
Soylent: Gruel today, gruel tomorrow - fjk
http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2013/05/nutrition
======
adriand
This product is a sad example of the lengths to which some people will go in
order to avoid spending time on tasks which are generally necessary and often
quite enjoyable and rewarding. Cooking certainly fits this description: it's
an enjoyable process, a rewarding skill, and something that others will love
you for if you do it well.

The constant focus on saving time and increasing personal productivity is a
recipe for mental illness, in my opinion. Most people would do well to slow
down, tune out, and make themselves a decent meal. I suspect that some and
perhaps many of the people obsessed with personal productivity and life
hacking will at some point suffer from a stress or anxiety disorder and will
realize that life is short and there's no point in trying to hurry through it.

This trend towards saving time by sacrificing basic requirements like eating
and sleeping is increasingly absurd. In a year or two, I'll open Hacker News
and there'll be an article in the top ten that describes how you, too, can
Avoid Wasting Time Due To Lengthy Bowel Movements. Don't believe the hype.
Have a good night's rest, followed by a leisurely shit and a tasty, gruel-free
breakfast you made yourself, and you'll be a better person for it.

~~~
Cushman
Paraphrasing from their pitch video: "If you can eat out with friends, you
should. I love food. But I don't eat twenty-one good meals a week."

I've seen before this idea that people would lose the ability to enjoy cooking
or eating if it weren't literally required to survive. It's utterly
nonsensical to me. Where does that idea _come_ from?

~~~
h3st
There are some people who just don't seem to enjoy food, and who go for
repetitive and bland meals. It's sort of like people who don't enjoy music, or
books, or films, or ... you get the idea. Generally they're perceived as a
little odd.

Even here in Norway, where food is advertised as "mild" (euphemism for "bland"
if there ever was one) people have some concepts of tasty food. You probably
know some people who don't enjoy spicy food? Now imagine someone who thought
plain bell peppers were too hot (there's no capsaicin in bell peppers).

As for the origin of this culinary anhedonia, Idunno. Maybe poor people who
were able to live off gruel without grumbling had better reproductive fitness
in the past?

------
aristus
I'm curious why no one mentions Unimix, memorably described by Roy Blount Jr
as "Purina Famine Chow", made and distributed by disaster relief
organizations. This stuff has been done before.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unimix>

~~~
jacques_chester
It gets mentioned most times that soylent is raised.

The thing is that soylent is a perfect storm of PR.

Lone genius has brilliant insight, develops perfect food. Just like those 60s
pulp SF novels where people eat food in pill form! Why did nobody think of
this before?

Lots of things that become popular or widespread do so because of the
narrative they fit into.

For example, which story will get published:

"22 year old PhD student corrects famous scientist"

or

"14 year old student corrects famous scientist".

People correct famous scientists all the time, that's how science works. But
it is the narrative (brilliant youngster vs establishment) that makes it a
story worth printing.

And if a story is good enough, journalists won't look too hard at it. They're
called "Too Good to Check" stories.

------
jacques_chester
Sometimes, leaving stuff to experts is wise.

<http://examine.com/blog/soylent-is-made-from-hype/>

We complain when non-programmers tell us how to do our jobs because it takes a
lot of study and experience to do it properly.

~~~
jckt
I understand Rob Rhinehart just playing around, some initial self-
experimentation, that kinda thing. There's no reason to get the experts from
the get-go. But when he got serious and made started his crowdfunding, and
hired a bunch of marketers and finance people, a customer relations guy and
only one scientist that isn't even a food scientist, you wonder -- is he
really serious about the nutrition thing? His team might as well have been
hand-picked for a social-networking startup.

Not saying that it's impossible for people outside the relevant field can't
make breakthroughs, but to assume that such a result were a much more than
improbable possibility, such that you didn't even need to hire _one_ guy with
the relevant credentials? That's chutzpah.

Good luck with the 300k. Hopefully they hire a few food
scientists/nutritionists.

~~~
DanBC
> is he really serious about the nutrition thing? His team might as well have
> been hand-picked for a social-networking startup

They were a traditional tech startup. They pivoted when that market collapsed.

<http://blog.soylent.me/>

> YC accepted our original idea, to build affordable wireless networks for
> developing countries, for the summer 2012 batch. We spent the entire summer
> prototyping our technology and looking for a customer. By demo day, we had a
> white space radio with a Bill of Materials (BOM) of $70 operating around
> Silicon Valley. We didn’t have customers and were facing an intimidating set
> of regulatory hurdles. We spoke with some of the valley’s top VC’s but
> failed to raise. Instead of pushing for investment that wasn’t there, we
> went back to focusing on acquiring customers and finishing our product as
> soon as possible. We never found a customer.

It is irresponsible for them to launch a product, with massive publicity, and
claim the product is safe for everyone (diabetics? pregnant women? People with
Crohn's? Anorexics?) and to claim there is much evidence to support safety.

~~~
jckt
Wow, I never knew that (not much of a start-up guy myself, admittedly).

This is really interesting (from their blog):

"By the start of 2013, we were working on a handful of projects. Sometimes
collectively, sometimes independently. One day, Rob said, “There must be a
more efficient way to eat.” He researched the human nutritional needs and was
frustrated to find that nutrition is _not quite a hard science right now.
Regardless, he identified the essential ingredients the body needs to thrive
and, a few days later, began constructing his alternative diet using
supplements purchased on Amazon. Pleased with initial testing, he committed to
his newly invented diet for 30 days_."

So, despite food science lacking foundations and rigour (in the most neutral
way) right now, he still figured out (well, almost, just needed a month of
testing and we're good to go!) an unsolved question, without any formal
training, in _a few days_.

In the context of their previous failure it just makes me even more inclined
to wonder what they're really planning -- their noble goals seem smell much
more like marketing bullshit now.

I hope I'm wrong.

------
everyone
I do wonder what the long term effects of eating this would be. Ive read some
of the creators blog posts and I get the impression he doesn't know what hes
doing. He has no education or experience in nutrition. He seems to have this
reductionist view of the human body and eating. For instance he will say I was
feeling a little X today so I added a few grams more Y and today I'm fine!
Basically he is being incredibly unscientific about it.

------
jonathanjaeger
There's a ton of maltodextrin in this according to the nutrition facts. Can we
really say it's a good idea to have that much maltodextrin for carbs compared
to whole wheat breads, whole grain/whole wheat pastas, or other "cleaner" carb
sources? I'm no nutritionist, but all those bodybuilding supplements and
nutritional drinks that are full of maltodextrin don't get a good rep from the
health community. Correct me if I'm wrong.

~~~
jacques_chester
Maltodextrin is used in bodybuilding supplements because it's quickly
digested. It causes an insulin spike which might help shuttle protein into
muscle tissue.

~~~
jonathanjaeger
Right exactly. It's used as a postworkout supplement often (possibly with
dextrose) and it's pretty cheap. I wouldn't want a quickly digested carb as my
main carb source in Soylent.

------
DaniFong
I think the most interesting thing about this whole experiment is that it took
this long for someone to do it. You would assume there'd be a wealth of
information from military studies of battle-ready rations, or something.

------
kumarski
Haters gonna hate, builders gonna build. When's the last time the economist
was correct with a prediction of the future?

------
DanBC
Some people want to try liquid feed. Here are some already existing companies
making liquid feeds:

<http://ensure.com/> Ensure

<https://www.nutricia.co.uk/fortisip//> Fortisip

<http://www.complan.com/> Complan

<http://abbottnutrition.com/brands/abbott-brands> Abbott Nutrition Brands

<http://www.medifast1.com/index.jsp> Medifast

<http://www.optifast.com/Pages/index.aspx> Optifast

<http://www.slim-fast.com/products/> Slimfast

Soylent make some claims about world hunger. As the article mentions Soylent
is currently expensive. Their crowdfunding level was food replacement at about
$7 per day. That's way outside the range of the 20% of the world population
living on less than $1.25 per day. The main ingredient of Soylent is water.
Unfortunately, about a billion people do not have access to clean drinking
water.

Hopefully with mass manufacturing they can get the cost down. And they could
plow back some of the profits into providing clean water.

There are other worrying things about Soylent.

> _For anyone who struggles with allergies, heartburn, acid reflux or
> digestion, has trouble controlling weight or cholesterol, or simply doesn't
> have the means to eat well, soylent is for you._

> _Soylent frees you from the time and money spent shopping, cooking and
> cleaning, puts you in excellent health, and vastly reduces your
> environmental impact by eliminating much of the waste and harm coming from
> agriculture, livestock, and food-related trash._

From (<https://campaign.soylent.me/soylent-free-your-body>)

Lots of 'problems with digestion' are going to be serious illness for which
liquid feeds are used. It is irresponsible for Soylent to claim to be safe for
those people without extensive testing.

There's no evidence that a liquid feed replacing all meals will put anyone in
excellent health.

The product uses agricultural products. As the article mentions, milk proteins
are significant impact.

Soylent also claims to have a shelf life of years. I'm still very curious
about this. Many micronutrients will not have a shelflife of years. vitamin C
needs to be kept in the dark, in an airtight container, away from heat and
moisture.

It was a mild irritant when it was one guy experimenting on himself (but
giving out the recipe for other people to follow along). Launching a product
from that with these claims, especially that there's "much evidence", is
irresponsible.

------
MostAwesomeDude
Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that the kid that came up with this stuff
only eats it five days a week? I feel cheated.

~~~
dnautics
Yes, that's what he does now. For the first two months he ate it 7 days a
week. Eventually, doing stuff like hanging out with friends at restaurants,
etc, winds up being important in your life, and you do want to try other
flavors and textures from time to time.

