
Parenting and Panic - pepys
https://thepointmag.com/examined-life/parenting-and-panic-agnes-callard/
======
gumby
> my eye was on the babies, and I couldn’t help but notice that one of them
> was chubbier, calmer and more beautiful than the others. My baby alone ...
> was much better than any of the others. Why wasn’t anyone remarking on this?

I am fascinated by this phenomenon. I remember my kid being in a school play
when he was young: everybody who wanted could be in it and they clearly added
trivial non-speaking spots for kids who might not have passed an audition but
still wanted to be on stage. He had one of those! Yet whenever he was on the
stage he just dominated -- expanded to fill the whole field of view. At least
for me. I really recognized this phenomenon years later when I watched another
play which had two kids in its cast who were _really good_. Probably the first
time I really noticed that there were even other kids on the stage.

As for new parents groups: they really are for mothers and aren't about the
babies. So I understand what she felt ("It was around the time I abandoned my
third or fourth new moms group that I began to consider the possibility that I
might be the problem."). And I mean _mothers_ : as a father I was clearly not
welcome (this was back in the late 1990s). At the park I was definitely viewed
with suspicion by the other mothers even though I was a regular, and none
would really talk to me (that's OK, I had EE times and the NYRB). Back then I
was the only father pushing a pram around downtown Palo Alto in the middle of
the day, and certain segments of the population clearly treated me with scorn.
After the 2000 crash I saw more fathers doing this and I hope this has changed
to some extent.

Interestingly at a party this phenomenon didn't appear, which I feel was due
to context: if I was carrying a baby I believe the presumption was this was a
dad being cute and "helping out" and that the rest of the child rearing was
done by the mother (in fact she did a lot but had no patience for the American
baby rituals). I saw this play out in other countries when I had the baby (and
later child).

I don't agree that the child controls the process, but rather the child is a
big responsibility, and _that_ controls the process. Frankly owning a home is
a lot of responsibility too, but the home is not in control.

~~~
technothrasher
> At the park I was definitely viewed with suspicion by the other mothers even
> though I was a regular, and none would really talk to me

Interesting. My experience as the only dad at the parks with my young child
was that all the moms wanted to come tell me what a great thing it was that I
was there, and how they were really proud of me for doing it. It felt very
condescending and awkward.

~~~
gumby
Could be a cultural shift — this was 1998-early 2000s

~~~
technothrasher
Could be, I was doing it in '06-'09 time period. Also could be different part
of the country, as I'm in MA.

------
newshorts
We’ve never given our baby formula (made it almost 11 months so far) and the
thing that really frustrates me, as a new father, is to watch my wife struggle
to feed our kid and work full time because she’s been told she needs to breast
feed. I’m not arguing the health benefits, but if I were, here’s one for you:

It’s better for the long term health of the baby if the mom doesn’t jump off
the fucking roof because you put too much pressure on fucking breast feeding!

It’s probably fine to supplement once in a while to ensure the mother has a
lower stress level. All things in moderation I think...

Do I sound panicked?

~~~
astura
This woman agrees with you.

>I beg to differ [that there is no reason for a healthy well-fed mother not to
breast feed her baby]. There are a lot of healthy well-fed mothers who have
found what they think are valid reasons not to breastfeed. I chose not to
breastfeed my babies because it was inconvenient, time-consuming, interfered
with my sleep, and was incompatible with my job as a doctor working 24 hour
shifts in the emergency room and as a flight surgeon on call. I suppose I
could have pumped milk and planned ahead and found a way to do it, but it
would have required heroic measures. I can imagine leaking breast milk all
over my flight suit when I was on an emergency helicopter mission and simply
couldn’t stop to pump. Moreover, I tried breastfeeding briefly with my first
baby and frankly, I didn’t like it. All in all, I thought my babies were
better off with a happy mother and a bottle.

[https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/breastfeeding-is-good-
but-m...](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/breastfeeding-is-good-but-maybe-
not-that-good/)

------
brootstrap
As a newish dad this is relatable but not as much as for my wife. There is so
much pressure and she is constantly telling me she feels like a bad mom. I say
listen , who cares about the media or twitter. There is always some person
posting on instagram about how they make a gourmet vegan meal for their baby.
As a male, an alternative dude, and a bit of a stoner with open mind I can
pretty easy filter out all the crap and focus in on what matters. Not as easy
for the females, i have mad respect for all the moms out there grinding.

As for the whole 'my kid is so amazing', yeah i have that feeling as well with
my kid. seems like it's just a paternal thing. but damn man kid is fucking
cute and EVERYONE says hi to her. This doesnt happen with all little ones
right? Our kid is smiley as shit, waving, laughing and basically a smile
generator. IF you dont smile as this kid you have no soul

~~~
SolaceQuantum
_" As a newish dad this is relatable but not as much as for my wife. There is
so much pressure and she is constantly telling me she feels like a bad mom. I
say listen , who cares about the media or twitter. There is always some person
posting on instagram about how they make a gourmet vegan meal for their baby.
As a male, an alternative dude, and a bit of a stoner with open mind I can
pretty easy filter out all the crap and focus in on what matters. Not as easy
for the females, i have mad respect for all the moms out there grinding."_

Might I suggest one of the aspects that you may be missing is that mothers are
judged as mothers first and humans second in society (at least in America
where I live). Often times a woman who doesn't mother as vigorously as another
woman is considered _less worthy as a human being_ and less deserving of
respect, care, comfort, etc.

I would compare this to ask if men are judged the same way as fathers. For
example, if a male CEO doesn't take the day off to nurse his sick infant, is
he considered a bad human being and judged as morally a less worthy person?

Or, in my experience, if my male friends are letting their spouses handle
taking care of the child for the evening, they are not casually discussed as
allowing malnutrition and unkemptness the way women are discussed when they
let their husbands take care of the kids while they have a night or a week out
for a business trip or just to have some fun.

An interesting thing to note is that women on average were studied to have an
additional 2 hours of work per day upon becoming new parents, while men on
average have an additional 40 minutes.

~~~
belorn
> I would compare this to ask if men are judged the same way as fathers. For
> example, if a male CEO doesn't take the day off to nurse his sick infant

The example I would use is a father who looses his job. Is he considered as
morally a less worthy person compared to a mother who lost her job?

Cultural we still have gender role leftovers from the perception that mothers
are judged based on how they are able to raise children, fathers on how they
are able to provide for their children and spouse. A man who can't provide is
cultural viewed as an unfit father. A woman who can't raise her children a
unfit mother.

In such culture it is of no surprise that the father can take a much more
relax attitude to question such as nutrition.

> women on average were studied to have an additional 2 hours of work per day
> upon becoming new parents, while men on average have an additional 40
> minutes.

And how many work hours at the office? Should anyone given our current culture
be surprised if fathers spend more time in the office than mothers?

~~~
SolaceQuantum
My post is about why a mother might have a significant amount of anxiety about
being a mother and their mothering capacity.

This response is entirely out of scope. This isn't a competition on who works
harder, and framing it like this completely ignored my point.

~~~
belorn
That misses the point. Gender roles is a cause for anxiety because the cost of
failure is magnified and strike at the gender identity of the person.

Without understanding gender roles the different in anxiety in fathers and
mothers is unexplained, but there is no reason to do so as gender roles is a
fairly well documented and understood concept. Even in households that do not
perceive the father as the provider and the mother as the caregiver the gender
roles in society still imposes expectations that results in anxiety and stress
that align identically to those gender roles.

I am not sure where you got the concept of a competition, as the key insight
from identify the problems of gender roles is that both women and men suffer
from it. A simple decision such as taking a day off to nurse a sick infant
should have same outcome for both women and men, but with gender roles pushing
the mother to prioritize the child over work and the father to prioritize work
over the child the outcome becomes stereotypical.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
_" That misses the point. Gender roles is a cause for anxiety because the cost
of failure is magnified and strike at the gender identity of the person."_

Yes, that's... kind of what I was pointing at, because the original guy said
he was baffled at the anxiety of his wife. That's literally all I'm saying.
I'm so confused at your responses.

------
plughs
I usually stay the heck away from parenting articles but there was a genuine
honesty to this one.

> "The women in these groups had bent over backwards to be welcoming"."

People love to believe that mom's groups are full of snotty judgments and
anti-vaxx sentimens which is rarely, if ever true

> "My baby alone had the brilliant promise of profound intelligence shining
> out of his eyes."

Shhh - we're not supposed to admit that!

> "Every story about parenting has to do double duty as a story about how I am
> such a good parent."

I am pretty impervious to guilt trips, but 90% of parenting articles are just
flat out boring. I don't know why it can't be addressed with any sort of
intelligence and introspection.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
I can't scroll this at all with Chrome on Android?

If anybody else has the same problem:
[https://outline.com/PrPGFc](https://outline.com/PrPGFc)

~~~
chooseaname
I'm on desktop firefox 70 and I can't scroll either.

When are web devs going to stop this nonsense? Don't override basic behavior.

~~~
taejo
Desktop Chrome 77 can kinda sorta scroll a little bit sometimes.

~~~
aklemm
Same. Absolutely galling.

~~~
ak39
Mouse wheel doesn't work on FF, but clicking the down arrow at the bottom of
the scroll bar does. Annoying indeed.

~~~
souprock
For the other suffering Ubuntu Firefox users with no scroll bars: I got it
working with the Page Down key.

Annoying++ right there. I guess scroll bars were ugly or too complicated, so
they had to go.

------
alanfranz
One great excerpt:

"Parenting is a hostage situation: you're in the car, but your child is the
one driving it"

I would have said "you're THE car, but your child is the one driving it" :-)

~~~
thrower123
This kind of attitude towards children baffles me. It was always very clear
where the authority lay in my family, and it certainly was not in my childish
hands. You did what you were told, and with not too much grumbling. It's a
much more effective system, by all indications.

~~~
alanfranz
How old were you? I think you're speaking about older children than what the
author is implying in her article, and I was relating to her experience.

When you've got a baby, or a toddler, you can't just leverage your authority
and expect them to comply. It's a slow voyage. And, even when they comply, it
may not be a victory; would the author feel better if his child actually used
the bear costume?

I suspect from the fact that you said "not my childish hands" that you're
referring to your own childhood, and you're not a parent (yet). Maybe you
should ask your parents about their feelings.

Sometimes you expect parenthood to be hard, complex, tedious, but oddly
satisfying. But it can be totally unsatisfying. Because it's about children,
not about parents.

~~~
olau
Agreed. The really satisfying part is when they do stuff on their own.

Although getting a hug from time to time is a nice bonus. :)

------
dsfyu404ed
The author is lamenting how much the whims of the child control her parenting.
I don't want to make this about wealth but it kind of has to be. Wealth buys
the freedom to cater to these whims and make the cost seem justified. This is
normal to her because the author lives somewhere and associates with people in
similar situations, it's the local status quo. The kind of stuff the author
describes does not fly in families of lesser means. Good for her for having
those means but her experience is not universal.

You can bet that when daddy is waking up at 5am so he can be sitting in the
cab of an excavator at 6am mommy would be making the whiny 6yo sleep in his
own bed. The parenting experience would be very, very different with less
emphasis on the needs and whims of the individual child and more emphasis on
what's best for the family unit, parents have to work, kids have to go to
school. There is little room for compromising the routines around that.

Edit: I'd be interested to know why people disagree with me so much.

~~~
ceejayoz
Cosleeping is actually substantially _more_ common in low-income households.

~~~
aklemm
That might be more in the "very low" segment. At any rate, the point stands in
my experience; so many of the whims and desires my partner and I have been
able to cater to for our kids come from our privileged ability to do so, and I
can list a few dozen things we'd cut out immediately if time and money were
more scarce.

------
ijpoijpoihpiuoh
Just more evidence that everyone parents differently. My friends hardly hear
about the good stuff that my kids do. I want to talk about the grime and the
shit and the speech delays and the temper tantrums. That's the stuff I feel
like I need to get off my chest, when I'm afraid for their future.

~~~
noneeeed
We and most of the parents we know probably spend more time talking about the
crappy bits of parenting than how awesome our kids are. The single best part
of doing anti-natal classes was meeting a small group of people who were all
going through the same kinds of stuff we were. Knowing "It's not just me" is a
really big help coping with some of the tougher stuff.

We do still talk about the good stuff, but we all know they are awesome.

Thankfully most of my FB friends are pretty light on the performative parent
posting. The ones who go in for that also tend to be the one who overdo the
posting generally.

~~~
waylandsmithers
> anti-natal

probably just a typo but I thought this was a great malapropism... assuming
you meant ante (as in 'before') and not anti

~~~
noneeeed
Hah, yes, brain-fart.

Although some of the stuff they covered in the classes would have been enough
to put many off having kids if they were not already very pregnant :)

------
Animats
From the unscrollable article:

 _" While they were comparing and affirming baby-care choices, my eye was on
the babies, and I couldn’t help but notice that one of them was chubbier,
calmer and more beautiful than the others. My baby alone had the brilliant
promise of profound intelligence shining out of his eyes. He was much better
than any of the others. Why wasn’t anyone remarking on this?"_

 _" More good mail days. Join our newsletter."_

I think some kind of paywall was squelched by tracker blocking. But it's not
worth figuring it out to read more of that.

~~~
BlameKaneda
I couldn't tell if the site itself was screwed up or if it was something on my
end.

I converted the article via Outline and read it that way.
[https://outline.com/PrPGFc](https://outline.com/PrPGFc)

------
ropiwqefjnpoa
Parents don't make adults out of children, children make adults out parents.

~~~
drdeadringer
I don't have children.

I am an adult.

~~~
em-bee
that's what i thought too, until i had children. there is so much more to
being an adult than to be able to handle your own life. parenting teaches you
something no other aspect in life can.

------
newshorts
> my eye was on the babies, and I couldn’t help but notice that one of them
> was chubbier, calmer and more beautiful than the others. My baby alone ...
> was much better than any of the others. Why wasn’t anyone remarking on this?

Probably because every other mother in that room was thinking the same thing
about their kid.

* have a 11 month old who’s objectively more cute than every other kid in the room.

~~~
marksweston
I read the author as being fully self-aware and assuming we understand that
that is the case.

~~~
newshorts
Interesting, because she was talking about formula previously, I took it to
mean she really did believe her child was legitimately better.

------
chrisbrandow
This was just an incredibly thoughtful essay and really captured some of the
deeper movements of raising children better than most “OMG, raising children
is NUTZ!” essays.

------
empath75
Beautiful piece of writing, thanks for posting this.

------
duncancarroll
I made this meme to express what the first year of parenting is like:
[https://youtu.be/-br6dC69vdk](https://youtu.be/-br6dC69vdk)

I can only say this so emphatically over the internet, but if you have not yet
had kids, and you even _remotely_ enjoy your life, DO NOT HAVE KIDS. Source: I
am a dad.

They are in incredible burden that you cannot imagine or conceptualize prior.
The company you founded, the marathons you ran, your PhD thesis, etc., these
are all peanuts. Having a kid is like running a marathon every day for a year.
If that sounds like fun to you, then go right ahead.

There are 8 billion people on the planet. You don't need them to run the farm,
if you want to mentor someone there are lots of opportunities already. It's
also a shit job. Kiss your weekends and evenings and any other free time
goodbye. Like exercising? Good luck squeezing that in. Where this idea came
from that having kids should be the default in life I have no idea, but it has
got to stop.

The test I give my childless friends is to ask them what percent certain they
are that they want kids. If it's less than 100% (and it usually is) I tell
them not to have kids.

GET A DOG!

~~~
ksdale
As an only semi-related aside, I've always thought it was interesting that my
friends who didn't want kids when we were younger because of the
responsibility have nonetheless spent the last 10 years having dogs. Kids are
far more expensive than dogs, for sure, but I feel like logistically, dogs and
kids are more similar than people think.

You have to take care of a set of daily tasks to keep them happy and healthy.
If you work, you'll have to send the child to daycare, which you don't have to
do with a dog, but for me personally, there's some mental stress associated
with leaving a dog home alone all day. Other than that, you can't just up and
leave your house for longer than a work day without making arrangements for
either kids or dogs. Naturally, there are certain kinds of vacations that you
can't take with children, but in my experience, most people vastly
overestimate how much time they'll actually spend travelling the world over
the next decade or two.

Dogs have to be walked regularly enough that I don't think it's unreasonable
to say that a lot of people will spend more time actively caring for their dog
than they would caring for a child once the child is older than 5 or 6, at
least when the child doesn't have a ridiculous amount of extracurriculars,
though that's far from universal. Some kids are quite self-sufficient, though.

In my mind, the major thing that makes dogs less of a responsbility is that
they don't live as long, but then no one ever just has one dog, they tend to
string together 30 or 40 years of dogs, whereas kids are theoretically out of
the house after 18 years.

Lest it be said that I must not have much experience with kids, I have 4 and
have been a stay at home dad. It must also be said that I derive much more joy
from interacting with my kids than I do from interacting with my pets so my
whole perspective is certainly biased.

All in all, I think culture has instilled in us this fear that we'll ruin our
children's lives if we just let them be children and that has made having
children so much more daunting and intense and exhausting than I think it
needs to be(though babies, I fear, will always be intense and exhausting).

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
I’m gonna go with: ummmmm, fucking nope.

I occasionally leave my two dogs at home, outside, alone, over night.

Their water is on a timer.

Dogs can go days without food.

You can leave a dog at home alone.

Dogs can eat _rotting_ food, including meat.

Dogs can be trained to sit and wait in silence.

You can put dogs in a cage for hours and they just take it and wait.

If I can’t be arsed running with them I get in the car and they run on the
footpath beside me for 10k.

If a dog gets to ill or too physically incapable you can take it round to a
mates place and shoot it in the head.

~~~
jiofih
Good choice. You should probably not have kids anyway.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
I’ve got one of those too.

