

‘time’ is created by human beings to make sense of gravity [TED Video] - tfh
http://www.tedxamsterdam.com/2009/video-wubbo-ockels-on-time-and-gravity/

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mattheww
Just so we're clear, there is no real physics in this talk. There is no
information in this talk.

It's true that the value of the speed of light depends on units that are
relevant to humans. To suggest that this implies something about physics is
absurd. Physics is in fact independent of the actual value of the speed of
light.

The idea that the speed of light in vacuum is constant in all reference frames
is a postulate of special relativity. Both special relativity and general
relativity are confirmed by numerous experiments.

Edit: Note this is also a TEDx talk, not regular TED.

~~~
ynniv
_To suggest that this implies something about physics is absurd_

Try to not take life so seriously. The speaker is being philosophical, which
will not change the physics we have already documented but could help us think
outside the proverbial box.

 _There is no information in this talk._

Go outside, get some sun, smell some flowers. Not all life is hard math. Most
of science isn't even hard math. By the time science involves hard math, we
usually have an intuitive sense of what the answer will be and just have to
verify it. It takes an immense amount of aimless philosophical wandering to
arrive at a question which has a mathematical answer.

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scott_s
I'm with everyone here that this talk had little actual information, but I did
take away one neat observation.

Back when he was an astronaut, when his shuttle landed and he stood up in
gravity for the first time, he felt like he was on an elevator going up at 1g.
I think it's neat because his brain had learned during the space flight that
any acceleration means motion. Once he was back on Earth, his brain had to re-
learn that the constant 1g we feel does _not_ mean motion.

I think that has more implications for how our brain works and interprets
stimuli than it does physics, but it's still neat.

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jjs
"Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving." — _The Gateless Gate_ , Koan 29

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Robin_Message
Sorry, what? Is this guy a crackpot or have I missed some kind of joke?

"The speed of light is created by our minds?" Then why do machines perceive
it? Why do we notice no changes in it between minds? Why does all of our
simple Physics work (e.g. refraction) assuming a fixed speed?

Just because you want it to be true doesn't make it true.

~~~
TeHCrAzY
We made the machines, they are our product, and will reflect that. This is at
a much higher level than mere machines.

However, I don't think he really explains a great deal. Much of his talk
builds up upon itself, without ever seriously trying to back the claims.

~~~
Groxx
Just because we built a machine to measure something doesn't mean it produces
what we expect. Arguably, _most_ of science is simply trying to account for
the _un_ expected.

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Groxx
_He started by berating the audience for pretending to understand the universe
and mysteriously declaring, “I know what it is that you don’t know yet and it
will change your life”._

Wow. Spoken like a true theoretical scientist. Of _course_ they're right; time
will show they're _all_ right. Except those others who only _thought_ they
were right: they're morons.

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sbarre
Time is simply a perception and measure of movement right.. If there was no
movement (at all), there would be no way to measure time..

~~~
crazydiamond
If the mind were not there --- thoughts and memories -- we would not remember
a previous moment, we would be in the now. So there would be no time perceived
by us.

We would of course then not invent instruments that keep track of time. Is it
possible that our clocks don't keep track of time, but of our notion of time.
Just wondering??

~~~
Groxx
The only way I can see that working requires two things:

1\. We _create_ (physical) reality to some extent at least. By thinking time
exists, we are able to create something which can track the progression of
something which only exists in our thoughts.

2\. Jungian collective unconscious: we all seem to have the same idea of time.
The sun rises, then sets, it doesn't re-wind part way through the day, or
simply appear in the middle of the sky.

2b. Unless, of course, this is all a / your dream.

Not to say that this is impossible (just _try_ to disprove it), just
convoluted and counter to most of what we (seem to) know.

~~~
crazydiamond
> Jungian collective unconscious: we all seem to have the same idea of time

No, but perhaps we are _taught_ the same idea from childhood.

Actually believe there is a tribe where the notion of time does not exist, and
their language reflects that. Some linguistic expert found that all his
language theories failed w.r.t their language.

Just as an aside, for a ray of light, there is no time. Its always now.

~~~
Groxx
The Piraha? There have been a few articles about them, but most of them have
been rather contradictory. For instance, another oddity of their language
which is frequently cited is that they don't have any subordinate clauses[1].
And all the articles then go on to show something like the following: a
grammar construct which shows the equivalent function, if not the same
structure:

 _Instead of saying, "When I have finished eating, I would like to speak with
you," the Pirahãs say, "I finish eating, I speak with you."_

Dissimilar structure may be _weird_ , but it doesn't show they have _no_ way
of expressing the same meaning. Similarly with time, from the same article
(mirrored many other places), it's not "no notion of time", there's just very
little:

 _They hardly use any words associated with time and past tense verb
conjugations don't exist._

"Hardly use any" and "have none" are different. Similarly, saying "no notion
of time" is the same as not conjugating your verb is ludicrous. I can see no
rational requirement for modifying your verbs to show past-tense in order to
be understood. Do you understand this? "I run yesterday."

They may be exceptionally abnormal, but the abnormalities have been hyped in
the _extreme_.

[1]:
[http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,414291,00...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,414291,00.html)

edit: cultural influence on language is _extremely_ powerful, not denying
that. This is specifically about the oft-mentioned tribe, which has become a
bit of a pet peeve of mine; any ill-will towards you detected is unintended,
just cross-fire. As I think the tribe does not fit the no-time requirement,
we're back to all humans apparently comprehending time in the same way.

~~~
crazydiamond
Thanks for correcting me. NO offence taken :-D

err umm ... actually I was speaking about a race on Arcturus, that is composed
of light. "Light Beings" they call themselves. Never at rest. No concept of
speed of light. (j/k).

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korch
I liked this. He has apparently re-discovered Kant's original claim that time
is a creation of our own minds, that we are incapable of conscious experience
outside of the context of time, and therefore everything we can possibly
cognize is bounded by a set of a priori constraints which we can recognize.

~~~
jjs
_He has apparently re-discovered Kant's original claim that time is a creation
of our own minds_

If by "original" you mean, in response to Hume's earlier statements on the
origins of the idea of time. :-)

<http://seop.leeds.ac.uk/entries/kant-hume-causality/>

[http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treatise_of_Human_Nature/Book_...](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treatise_of_Human_Nature/Book_1:_Of_the_understanding/Part_II)

~~~
crazydiamond
Not to mention the eastern sources, namely Buddhism and Hinduism that have
said so thousands of years ago.

~~~
balding_n_tired
Indeed Schopenhauer quotes them...

~~~
crazydiamond
iirc, Eckhart Tolle breaks time into clock time and psychological time.
Perhaps, he does this to make it easy for audiences. But basically he does not
debunk time. Psychological time is a mind created state which allows for the
existence of a personal story.

When one stays in the present moment, one breaks out of psy time, but clock
time still exists. I hope i have not misquoted him.

