
Every Black Hole Contains Another Universe? - nreece
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100409-black-holes-alternate-universe-multiverse-einstein-wormholes/
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btilly
It is worth noting that the estimated mass of the universe is the same as the
mass of a black hole whose event horizon has the radius of the visible
universe.

This coincidence is rather striking and has been the subject of much
speculation, though nobody has been able to make anything useful come out of
it. If this theory manages to predict this relation within the created
universe, that would be evidence for the theory.

~~~
aufreak3
This is interesting news, but not very surprising strangely enough.

If you assume that the next approximation to Newton's gravity equations are
similar to Maxwell's equations (thereby introducing a secondary field
analogous to B, the magnetic field) then you can do back of the envelope
calculations that get you interesting results including this one - i.e. our
universe's radius is of the order of Schwarzchild's radius of a black hole of
the mass we estimate, together with the acceleration equivalences under that
condition. By that I mean - the two situations of you accelerating w.r.t the
rest of the universe and the rest of the universe accelerating w.r.t. to you
are physically indistinguishable. You can get that for rotation (in which case
the B analog gives you Coriolis force) and for linear acceleration as well. I
think in these limiting calculations you get some constant factors wrong (like
the Newtonian escape velocity calculation) but the order turns out ok.

This "analog of B" is called the "gravitomagnetic field"
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitomagnetism>) and NASA's GP-A and GP-B
probes (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Probe_B>) are for measuring this
effect near earth.

~~~
btilly
For another direction in which speculation has gone see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach%27s_principle>.

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gjm11
The idea that black hole formation might also be universe formation is quite
old; I don't know what the new contribution of Poplowski's work is. (For the
avoidance of doubt, I simply mean "I don't know" and _not_ , e.g., "I suspect
there is none".)

Lee Smolin made an ingenious observation: if that's so, and if it happens that
in the "daughter" universe the constants of nature are slightly (and variably)
different from those in the "parent", then we have exactly the setup required
for Darwinian evolution, and we should expect universes to be selected for
black hole fecundity. (And if that's correlated with, e.g., the viability of
stars, then perhaps it explains "fine tuning", in so far as that actually
exists.) Smolin wrote a book about this, called "The life of the cosmos", but
I haven't read it so can't recommend or disrecommend it.

~~~
yacin
They mention in the article that Poplowski's contribution is providing a new
mathematical model for this old idea.

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fun2have
Is this not a Turtles all the way down theory. We are in a Black hole which is
inside a Black Hole?

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public
lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how
the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars
called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of
the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is
really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist
gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?"
"You're very clever, young man, very clever", said the old lady. "But it's
turtles all the way down!"

See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down>

~~~
rms
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a Turtles all the way
down theory, as long as it is supported by facts.

~~~
fun2have
Totally agree there is nothing wrong about it been Turtles all the way down,
but it would mean that "a little old lady at the back of the room" in 1927
came up with a ground breaking theory :)

~~~
borism
Do "turtles all the way down" collapse into a black hole?

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Roridge
Am I missing something, or did Red Dwarf not already predict this in 1991??

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hole_%28Red_Dwarf%29>

~~~
khafra
Disney, 1979: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole>

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chrischen
Is the black whole compressing space? So basically it makes things so small to
us it's practically another universe? Then considering things can become
infinitely large we are just part of another bigger universe.

Anyways I always thought that parallel universes could not interact with each
other (since, if I understand correctly, the parallel universes in the many
worlds theory cannot interact with each other) so describing the black holes
as containing another _universe_ seems misleading.

~~~
Deestan
In these matters, the human concepts of size and space breaks down and are as
good as meaningless, so it's counterproductive to think of other universes as
smaller or bigger. They just _are_. :)

The many worlds theory and its parallel universes is unrelated to this, so its
rule of no interaction does no apply.

~~~
chrischen
> In these matters, the human concepts of size and space breaks down and are
> as good as meaningless, so it's counterproductive to think of other
> universes as smaller or bigger. They just are. :)

But what if it is the best way of describing it? How else could you explain it
in the event we discover that we can keep on finding smaller and smaller
particles?

> The many worlds theory and its parallel universes is unrelated to this, so
> its rule of no interaction does no apply.

Yea, but I like to think of all these _universes_ as still part of our
universe, since we would be able to interact with them.

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binarymax
"If future experiments reveal that our universe appears to rotate in a
preferred direction, it would be indirect evidence supporting his wormhole
theory, Poplawski said."

I was wondering, If the universe is our only point of reference, and
everything in it is (at a whole) rotating at the same speed and in the same
direction, how we could tell?

~~~
CUViper
Rotation requires acceleration, since your direction is changing, so you can
tell by the forces upon you.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_force>

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crazydiamond
If we are within a black hole, should we not see matter pouring in ?

Or would it be too slow for us to notice?

~~~
ldh
As the article states, this might be observed in the form of the big bang
and/or gamma ray bursts.

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daniel-cussen
A recursive universe then?

So, if a universe is big enough for black holes, it might have black holes in
it, but if it isn't, it's just a regular-old stars and planets universe. And
then, any black hole it might have has a reduced universe inside it.

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markbnine
I like that this article is filed under _Daily News_.

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SanPedroGrouch
This is something Carl Sagan said matter-of-factly near the start of his
series _COSMOS_. "We live inside a Black Hole."

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chanux
Oh that is recursion!

~~~
ldh
This just in: scientists discover the fate of our universe will be a stack
overflow.

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peterbraden
If this is true, is the LHC creating universes?

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rbanffy
That last a fraction of a second.

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jimfl
They seem to us to last a fraction of a second.

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suraj
By definition there is only one universe.

~~~
rms
But what about by ontology?

~~~
thmz
All that we see or seem. Is but a dream within a dream.

EA Poe

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apphacker
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Also what happens to this
"universe" when the black hole dissipates due to Hawkins Radiation?

~~~
CUViper
I thought it was weird that Stephen Hawking wasn't mentioned at all in an
article about black holes. But to be fair, I don't think we have any evidence
of Hawking Radiation either.

~~~
bdfh42
I rather think that there is such evidence (<edit>mostly indirect
though</edit>). Plus - if folks start creating mini-black holes under
experimental conditions then we are all in trouble if entropy does not kick in
and cause them to evaporate in pretty short order.

~~~
CUViper
Well I admit I'm mostly a "Wikipedia physicist", and the lengthy article there
says that the effect has not been observed. If you find such a citation, might
I suggest that you add a link?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation>

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korch
"Real Hackers" generate black holes, constructing them in turn to generate
sub-Universes, causing a Universal exception, which can be used as a buffer
overflow exploit in the Laws of Physics. Basically, if you can figure out how
to do this, you'll be Neo.

