
Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card - sohailprasad
http://gigaom.com/2013/11/14/meet-coin-a-startup-creating-a-universal-credit-card/
======
lambda
Hmm, pretty neat hack! I like the idea a lot.

I'm disappointed that they didn't mention that this is hooked to an online
service until you get well into their FAQ:

    
    
        Maintaining the integrity of your Coin’s data is 
        critical to your peace of mind. That’s why our servers,
        mobile apps and the Coin itself use 128-bit or 256-bit 
        encryption for all storage and communication (http and 
        bluetooth). Additionally Coin can alert you in the 
        event that you leave it somewhere.
    

If this were purely a hardware device and software than ran on my phone, I
might be interested. Adding in an online service appears to add more points of
failure, and more opportunity for yet another third party to snoop on my
behavior. It would be nice if they described in more detail why this online
service was necessary, what data was stored there, and what privacy
protections they provide.

Also disappointing that it doesn't support chip and pin. Whenever I travel to
the UK, I find that people are increasingly surprised by cards that don't have
a chip, and need to fumble around trying to remember how to use the card
reader; it would be nice if this would be an opportunity for me to get a chip
and pin compatible card out of my mag stripe card to avoid that problem
(though on reflection, it's likely that a mag stripe doesn't contain
sufficient information to make a valid chip and pin card).

$100 for something that lasts for two years and solves only a minor annoyance
seems a bit steep. I'm sure that there will be plenty of people who will buy
it, but I don't know if I would find it worth the cost beyond the novelty
value.

I do appreciate their Bluetooth LE Arduino dev kit:
[http://blog.onlycoin.com/posts/2013/10/3/coin-arduino-ble-
de...](http://blog.onlycoin.com/posts/2013/10/3/coin-arduino-ble-dev-kit)

~~~
monoglotmark
I think the online service has the potential to be the most valuable part of
this whole product. All your transactions, across multiple accounts, tracked
in one place allowing breakdowns of your spending and clarity on our
outgoings. I also see a big win here for Coin, think Mint but with an
opportunity to also suggest better products & services to spend your money on
(since they'll know almost everything you're buying) - a marketer's dream.

~~~
hdevalence
Valuable to whom? Having a complete record of all of my purchases and where
I've been evey day might be a marketer's dream, but it's not my dream.

~~~
guiambros
Marketers already _have_ access to all your purchases.

Your bank statement has ads. Your credit card issuer sells your transactions
to their partners. Retailers sell your data to data processing companies. The
three big scoring companies have access to all your key financial information
- and they sell it back to you (in the form of credit score monitoring
services), and to marketers. DSPs allow marketers to bid on impressions at a
very precise level, based on which sites you visited yesterday.

Marketer's dreams were already fulfilled years ago. They have a more data than
most can handle.

Coin can become the credit card of credit cards. They could offer financing,
revolving credit, analytics (like Mint), and tons of other financial products
based on credit history. These are a lot more interesting - and profitable -
than selling ads (or data) to marketers.

It's an obvious idea, but (apparently) nicely executed. It's a perfect
acquisition target for Square. Or Visa/MC/Amex.

------
shittyanalogy
Super cool idea! but, terrible name choice, no one is ever going to call it
just "Coin" they're gonna call it their "coin card". "Coin" is already slang
for money in general like, "dough" or "clams" and is also already a form of
money.

    
    
        Do you have a coin?
        I lost my coin.
        Check out my coin.
        I paid for that with coin.
        Coin is so convenient.
        I got rid of all my credit cards, I just use coin.
    

All of those will be "coin card" if this catches on.

Similarly, I have an account at Simple. And while it's a product I absolutely
love it's hard to explain to people what I mean by "I do my banking online at
Simple" or "I like simple because they charge no fees" It seems like I'm just
being grammatically incorrect and I honestly feel like it contributes
negatively to peoples perception of the company. Also search is a bitch when
you've got such a crappy name.

~~~
jes5199
"BankSimple" was a better name, I think.

~~~
shittyanalogy
Agreed, they had to change it due to legally not being a bank.

------
michaelmior
I think one of the hardest things about having one would be convincing
retailers you're not trying to somehow scam them. Especially in the case of
loyalty cards. Sure I CAN load my card onto the Coin, but what is a merchant
going to do when I pass them something strange that looks nothing like their
card?

~~~
witek
Often, a loyalty card is nothing but a piece of plastic with a number printed
on it. For example, for airlines and hotels I just give them the number, they
never need to see the card.

However, if you mean a gift card with pre-loaded money, things may be
different, but then it'd probably be a similar reaction if you tried to use
Coin instead of a proper debit/credit card?

~~~
michaelmior
I'm just thinking about the reaction I would get if I walked into my grocery
store and handed them my Coin. I'm not sure they would take it. Debit and
credit cards may be a problem too, although they're diverse enough that
unfamiliarity is less of an issue. Plus, you can handle the card yourself in
many transactions. Usually loyalty cards need to be given to the merchant.

------
jqueryin
This is potentially useful for the US market as chip/pin is very new to us and
only recently rolled out via major banks this year (I literally just got my
new Visa card with a chip). I can see how Europe is far ahead of the curve.

My initial questions/concerns are as follows:

 __Will this be usable in ATMs? __I can 't visibly tell if it's too wide to
fit.

 __Is there any planned security functionality to lock the card via your
paired mobile device? __I 'd like to be able to supply a password to unlock
for a short period of time for usage.

~~~
brsch
Based on Coin's FAQ:

1\. Yes, it should be usable with ATMs without issue.

2\. You cannot lock your coin with a password, but it will deactivate after it
loses contact with a phone after a user-specified amount of time. In theory,
I'd assume you can disable Bluetooth on your iPhone and it will effectively
"lock" your Coin until it can pair with your device again.

~~~
dannygarcia
Would be nice if there was a way to physically unlock it. I can imagine my
phone dying – preventing me from making any kind of purchase.

------
Fuzzwah
.... and when the waiter accidentally presses that button and changes the card
which your business lunch is being charged to?

~~~
cloudwalking
Maybe the button only works when the card is near the phone?

~~~
Fuzzwah
That would be a pretty neat solution, but still has a window where it could be
an issue.

Perhaps do the card selection from the app? Or at least an option to require
confirmation in the app?

~~~
amscanne
That's a neat solution to the security problem also.

You go to the app on your phone and select the card you want. The coin will
now function as that card for the next 5 minutes only. Otherwise, the coin is
nothing.

Now even if your wallet is stolen, without your phone (+ unlock code, etc.)
they don't have any of your cards!

------
altoz
This seems a great way to steal other people's credit cards. You can literally
duplicate someone's card on your "coin".

Now there's a super easy way for someone working in a restaurant to get your
credit card information and sell it.

~~~
CoffeeDregs
Two notes:

1) This can already be done using a simple stripe reader.

2) Coin can identify, investigate and proactively block anyone who has more
than the average number of cards, so Coin actually seems well positioned to
_reduce_ fraud. Also, Coin could identify that multiple Coin cards have the
same credit/whatever cards on them and, _the next day_ , prompt you to swipe
your card again to confirm. [Provided that Coin uploads suitable data to its
servers...] In fact, using a Coin card _could_ be a signal to fraudsters not
to commit fraud against your card.

~~~
joshfraser
Yes, credit card duplicators have been available for a long time, but the
average minimum-wage worker doesn't know that. This changes the game -- kinda
like how how the prevalence of high quality camera phones changed the game for
sexting. You could do it before, but it happens a lot more now that it's so
convenient and the technology is available to the masses.

------
chollida1
How does this work with the typical credit card setup, ie chip and pin? Do
they duplicate the pin of each credit card?

In Canada I haven't' seen a place that doesn't use chip and pin for about 3
years now.

Can someone shed some light on how they get around this?

~~~
dangrossman
They get around it by being in the US, where there's virtually no chip-and-pin
cards or readers.

~~~
chollida1
> They get around it by being in the US, where there's virtually no chip-and-
> pin cards or readers

Really? I'm very surprised. Canada has moved over many years ago. I thought
we'd be following the US here.

Is chip and pin in the works? ie is this a stop gap for the next year or two
until its rolled out or is the US just not bothering with it?

~~~
msbarnett
> Really? I'm very surprised. Canada has moved over many years ago. I thought
> we'd be following the US here.

The US banking system is _incredibly_ antiquated compared to Canada's (and
much of the rest of the world's).

~~~
refurb
That's because you need Royal Assent in order to be a bank in Canada. Unlike
the US that has hundreds (if not thousands) of banks, Canada only has 5 (or is
it 6 now?) massive banks.

Having only a few big banks makes it much easier to roll out new technology.

~~~
msbarnett
> That's because you need Royal Assent in order to be a bank in Canada. Unlike
> the US that has hundreds (if not thousands) of banks, Canada only has 5 (or
> is it 6 now?) massive banks.

This isn't really accurate, in that creating a bank nowadays requires only
conformation to The Bank Act, not any royal (or by-proxy Governor General)
consent. There are 44 domestic or domestic-subsidiary-of-foreign-corporation
Schedule 1 banks in Canada, and 600+ credit unions. The big 5 dominate, but
more for historical reasons than anything else.

The long prevalence of things like chip-and-pin and email money transfers and
other modern amenities that are just starting to show up in the US has more to
do with a marked preference for standardization governed by industry
consortiums like Interac in Canada, rather than multiple competing,
incompatible credit networks that debit piggybacks on top of, I suspect.

~~~
baudehlo
But all the credit unions are owned by desjardins if I recall correctly.

~~~
msbarnett
Most credit unions _in Quebec_ are part of the Desjardins group. They don't
seem especially widespread outside of Quebec.

Quickly glancing at the ownership of 9 of the 10 largest credit unions outside
of Quebec, 8 of the 9 were unrelated to Desjardins. The 4th largest (Meridian
Credit of Ontario) was the sole exception. I couldn't find info on the 9th
largest, Cambrian Credit of Manitoba.

------
ry0ohki
There's been another company working on this for many years:
[http://www.dynamicsinc.com/](http://www.dynamicsinc.com/) I've seen the
working models, they are decent, but it's a surprisingly hard problem.

~~~
viraj_shah
Also this: [https://walla.by/the-wallaby-card](https://walla.by/the-wallaby-
card)

~~~
leokun
I would totally pick wallaby over coin if they would put a picture of a
wallaby on the card.

~~~
derstang
well if that's all it takes :)

------
baby
It doesn't seem to apply to inserting, and in Europe we don't really use
swiping (also we have to type a PIN code).

Although as a US product only it seems surreally cool and practical. I
wouldn't use that for my credit card, but for a membership card? I have way
too much H&M card, Levis' card, Virgin Megastore card, Cinema Card...

~~~
iamshs
Same for me. Canada also uses chip/Pin method. Membership cards is where I
will use one.

------
cbhl
One of the things I noticed about the chip and pin migration in Canada was
that when merchants all upgraded their point-of-sale terminals to handle EMV,
many new terminals also happened to handle contactless payments.

I've been on two internships in the valley, and despite the availability of
Google Wallet, I couldn't find a merchant that would accept it (apart from
McDonald's) because everyone was still using magstripe-only terminals. (There
were even a few merchants at trade shows who were still using triplicate
carbon-copy forms...!)

I think Coin is a product that makes sense for the US market right now as a
transitionary product, and wouldn't be surprised if Google acquired them some
time in the next year or so and rolled them into the Wallet product offering.
When and if US merchants upgrade to chip-and-pin capable offerings, (almost)
everyone who owns a Nexus device made in the last two or three years will be
ready with unified wallet offerings that already exist.

------
aresant
Great technology solving what's a small, but real inconvenience with a great,
simple UX and product. Just bought mine.

My only question was can I use for my ATMs too (which pull card in vs. being
swiped)?

And the answer is yes, great FAQ by the way:

[https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/](https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/)

~~~
jmackinn
The answer is actually no

Q. Where can I use Coin? A. You can use a Coin everywhere cards are accepted
including dip-style card readers and ATMs. Use a Coin just like you use your
cards now at gas stations, restaurants, the mall, the gym, or other places you
frequent.

Dip-style card readers do not pull the card into the machine.

------
christiangenco
I just invented something similar.

Though it only supports a maximum of 4 cards, at scale it would cost ~500x
less.

I call it "penny." Here's my prototype:
[http://imgur.com/49auKC4](http://imgur.com/49auKC4)

~~~
ryan-c
I've seen card readers try to read from both sides of the card in case it's
swiped on the wrong side - you might have some problems with those.

~~~
christiangenco
For compatibility, penny will offer a special adapter that will decrease
interference with some card scanners.

You can purchase this compatibility adapter for $3.95 for 66 feet:
[http://www.amazon.com/Scotch-
Electrical-75-Inch-66-Foot-0085...](http://www.amazon.com/Scotch-
Electrical-75-Inch-66-Foot-0085-Inch/dp/B00004WCCP/ref=sr_1_3?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1384476612&sr=1-3)

------
Aqueous
Sorry - I think the leather wallet and credit card are already going to be
replaced by the cell phone itself, not an additional card accessory.

------
sjtgraham
Ships 2014, EMV liability shift 2015. So these are good for about a year or
so.

~~~
mikelbring
What does that mean? EMV liability shift?

~~~
sjtgraham
It means merchants will be liable for counterfeit card fraud if the
transaction mechanism used isn't EMV aka chip and pin, i.e. magnetic swipe
cards are done.

Coin is betting the EMV deadline will be pushed out indefinitely or is using
this gadget as a trojan horse for something bigger.

------
alexobenauer
I love this idea, but I don't think it would solve one of the biggest reasons
why I would want something like this:

Royalty Cards. I simply don't use them because that's way too many cards to
have in your wallet. But say I'm at a restaurant, without coin, you give the
waiter your credit card and your royalty card. With coin, do you make him run
back twice so you can hit the button to switch from your credit card to your
royalty card?

I guess you could get 2, one for credit / debit cards, another for royalty
cards, but that seems to start defeating the purpose.

~~~
iamshs
I will get one for loyalty cards only, will reduce major clutter. For
credit/debit transactions, Canada has high penetration of chip/pin terminals
and Coin will be useless here.

------
tomkin
> "...a problem most of us have."

Is this a real problem? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you can't
determine a problem by telling me _this is a problem we all have_. I'm not
buying the angle, sorry. Not like I'm against this idea, but the sell is a
little ridiculous.

How would this work with chip-based cards? In Canada, some of the banks have
ditched the magstripe, so not sure how scalable this is - since the encryption
on the chip is specifically engineered to prevent this kind of interception.

~~~
g4m8i7
It doesn't. The FAQ says so. But it also says that it's made for the USA
market, which is sufficiently large to generate some serious profit.

Not everything has to have global reach or impact.

~~~
tomkin
Sure, but in the spirit of longevity, you're talking about a stop-gap solution
at the most. There's also this: they aren't solving a real problem. My wallet
going from 1 inch to 1/2 inch isn't a selling point.

~~~
g4m8i7
I'll give you your second point. I bought one because I thought it was neat.
If I can reduce the size of my wallet, then sure, that's great, but the
biggest draw for me is "OOh. That's neat tech, how did they fit it in a credit
card?"

------
harryzhang
This is awesome but I'm concerned about how it would be too easy to switch
cards (accidentally). In the FAQ they say it's fine if its dropped, handed
into a booklet, etc. Sounds fine in theory but what happens when you hand the
card to the waiter/bartender and they happen just to grab it where the circle
is? Won't that change the card?

Another concern is in bars - your CC# gets a tiny bit wet (drunk ppl, spilled
drinks on table, etc.). Does this card stop working if its splashed a little?

My two cents.

This is awesome though.

------
evck
While copying magstripes is already easy, no merchant will accept a stock
magstripe card for a credit transaction, because it's clearly fraudulent.

If merchants will accept coin, it creates trust for this devices, and
lookalikes. I think it would be much easier to create Coins, or Coin clones
with stolen credit card data. This is rather concerning.

On another note, I really want one of these to tear apart and mess with. The
hardware is pretty slick.

------
tehwebguy
From the FAQ:

 _Q. Can I lock my Coin?_

 _A. Currently you cannot lock your Coin, but you don’t have to. Coin will
automatically deactivate if it loses contact with your phone for a period of
time that you configure in the Coin mobile app._

Bummer! Seems like there should be a way to use your phone to lock it down.
Either way this is cool as hell.

~~~
timharding
You could turn off bluetooth, that would lock Coin, after a period.

------
cfinke
The iCache (from 2007) had an interesting solution to the security issue that
everyone is mentioning:

 _[A]ctivate the device with a fingerprint on its biometric strip, scroll
through a list of cards on its screen and choose one. Out pops a plastic card
with a magnetic stripe, temporarily loaded with the chosen card 's data. Just
swipe the card and pop it back into the iCache. After one use, the information
on the card disappears._

[http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/23/technology/one_credit_card.b...](http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/23/technology/one_credit_card.biz2/index.htm?section=money_pf)

Although I'm not sure if the information disappears after the swipe or after
it's loaded back into its case.

~~~
domdelimar
I was thinking a fingerprint scanner is exactly what's missing on these
devices (what I've seen so far, Coin, Echo & Wallaby), but this is also an
interesting solution with iCache.

Too bad about what happened to it. (Actually just found out about iCache and
what exactly happened and while I'm sad, I can't say I'm surprised.)

------
NickM
Something not answered by the FAQ: when the battery starts to die, do you get
some kind of a warning? If so, great. If not, I'd be worried that one day my
battery would die without warning while I'm out of town and I'd be stuck
without access to any of my cards.

Of course I could mitigate this by carrying my cards with me, but that kind of
defeats the point, right?

I suppose I could also replace it after two years like they suggest in the
FAQ. But at $100 a pop I'd like to get as much use as possible out of it. And
from the usage numbers they cite for the 2-year estimate, it sounds like you
could probably get well over 2 years of battery life in practice.

~~~
OvidNaso
It also appears to rely on your phone. It's certainly needs to be carried with
an emergency card, but two cards as opposed to eight doesn't still preserves
it's utility.

~~~
g4m8i7
It isn't that it relies on it, per se. You can set it to require
authentication with your phone so it can disable itself if it's lost or
stolen, but it works just fine without constant connection.

------
abjr
What's to prevent some (dishonest) merchant from cycling through all the cards
in your Coin and charging each one?

~~~
davis_m
The same thing that prevents the merchant from charging the same card multiple
times, or charging more than was agreed upon. Nothing.

------
Kiro
I haven't seen a merchant where you swipe in ages. This seems really ancient
and insecure.

~~~
colmvp
Clearly you don't live in the U.S.

------
LukeWalsh
I will be hesitant to purchase without an incredibly transparent security
policy.

~~~
kybernetikos
I can't tell from the site if your card data is stored on your phone or not.
If it is, then you're going to have to replace all of your cards if you lose
your phone.

Also, shouldn't the merchants be checking the signature on the card?

~~~
zequel
They should but only 40-50% do, I write "Ask for ID" on the signature portion.
The ones that read it, ask me for it. Better than a signature that a cashier
won't question anyhow.

~~~
ecaron
In Minnesota, I'm having more merchants threaten to take my card for just
saying that. Visa seems to say you should write "See ID" and also sign it:
[http://usa.visa.com/merchants/risk_management/card_present.h...](http://usa.visa.com/merchants/risk_management/card_present.html)

~~~
maxerickson
I was curious about this and browsed through their operating regulations. It
says something to the effect of "Visa considers a signature box that only says
See ID to be blank".

So the pedantic response to your second sentence is that they consider the See
ID irrelevant (and once there is a signature, it is apparently a violation of
the merchant agreement to ask for ID, but I didn't look for that in the
operating regulations).

------
wtvanhest
Why wouldn't a VC back this and subsidize their business model until they
could get critical mass, then sell to retailers and create the first real
competitor for the major card companies.

Conversely, if I were MasterCard or visa I would bar merchants from taking
this card for my transactions to maintain competitive advantage.

~~~
PeterisP
Atually, I wouldn't be surprised if the currently existing rules would already
bar merchants from taking such a card - technically, this is a cloned card
that is not issued by a member of MC or VISA; and there are security
rules/training for identifying cloned (blank) cards and refusing/detaining
them as fraudulent.

~~~
wtvanhest
Yeah, actually after I made the comment I realize that that issue of
acceptance is probably the reason they are selling this on kickstarter instead
of a VC backing it. It may have been identified as a risk during YC and now
they are still trying to make it work.

I hope the founder comments on this point. If it is usable and merchant
contracts are in place for long enough, this is really cool. If there is a
whole in the legal side, this feels like something that may not be ideal to
back on kickstarter.

~~~
PeterisP
In theory, merchants should recognize the Coin as not a valid card according
to [http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchant/pdf/BM-
Entire_Manual_p...](http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchant/pdf/BM-
Entire_Manual_public.pdf) part 8.4.2.

Coin apparently aren't a MC/Visa issuer, so they can't claim to issue a valid
card or mobile payment device. In addition, merchants are supposed to judge
cards by the system logo - and Coin can't have MC or Visa logo if they aren't
an issuer, and certainly no card is allowed to have both MC and Visa logo
(even if they would technically support both), MC/Visa prohibit that.

On an anecdotal basis, the recommendation given to cashiers when teaching them
how to handle cards and detect fraud is not really in-depth but more or less
"if you see something suspicious that is not a normal card, call the cops", or
something like that.

~~~
wtvanhest
Interesting. Well I hope the founders worked that part out.

It looks like those cards will create a huge security issue if they are
accepted.

------
kapnobatairza
Programmable mag stripe cards are really nothing new. This implementation is
quite nice and sexy though. I can see immediate problems with it though:

1) Card thickness. Most makers of programmable mag stripe cards try to make
their card the same thickness as a normal sized credit card. Why? Because
thicker cards might scrape or get stuck in credit card readers (as old Amex
black cardholders know). Unfortunately it has to be think because of the
following:

2) Older iterations of this idea usually involved the bank/card issuer
supplying cards with multiple card numbers preloaded on it. This card in novel
in the sense that it has some writable memory that you can personally store
your existing cards to. However this involves a few elements that add to the
thickness of the card: It involves a non-volatile memory module for storing
the cards, it involves a volatile memory module for holding information about
new cards, it involves a bluetooth module for communicating between the
volatile memory and your smartphone and it involves a battery to run it all.

3) The battery is non-rechargeable (because any existing type of charging
point would add too much to the thickness), so the card only lasts for a
specific length of time before needing to be replace.

4) There is a move away from mag stripe everywhere in the world but the US as
mag stripe is really shit compared to chip and PIN for security. Even in the
US, mag stripe will be phased out within the next 10 years. This card can't
even store CVC security codes (the 3 digits on the back of your normal card).

5) They have added a security feature that ties the card to your smartphone
such that it becomes "deactivated" (locks the non-volatile memory) once it is
loses contact with your smartphone for too long. What this means in essence is
that you cant use your card without your smartphone. So that begs the
question: Why would the consumer adopt this instead of adopting a smartphone
based NFC wallet if its available to them? Google Wallet stores any credit
card I put on it, and if the merchant doesn't support NFC Google Wallet still
displays an image of the card for manual number input. You might say that a
merchant might get scared away from a transaction if you ask them to do that,
but a merchant might get scared away by asking them to run a unfamiliar
looking unmarked black card.

Regardless of the above, it is cool stuff and there is a niche that it will be
useful for, at least until chip and PIN / NFC wallets become widespread in the
US. I'm working on some similar ideas so I thought I'd toss in my two cents.

------
ToastyMallows
> Coins are designed to last for 2 years under normal usage and do not need to
> be recharged.

Awesome!

> Once the battery dies you will need to replace your Coin.

Does the replacement cost money? If yes, I think I'll stick with my current
situation. Awesome idea though.

------
vlokshin
Coin is taking something that's outdated -- and unnecessarily physical, and
offering a layer of digital on it to create many cards into one.

Yes, this is "doable" with existing technology, but not for the common man.

Security is going to be an issue, sure. If Kanishk can get the security tech
concerns AND human worries calmed down - he's on to something that can
fundamentally change how we use credit cards.

Until we realize there's really no need for a device this physical... or
something beyond what we're currently carrying. But this'll require losing the
magnetic strip need, and that'll take time.

------
throwaway98604
I can actually see myself using this. There are times where certain stores
have these promotions where I can buy a $30 gift card for $20, but I never
bother doing it because I know that I will probably leave the gift card at
home the time I come back. I also like the automatic locking feature as well
when it loses the bluetooth connection with your phone.

Another benefit I see is that it doesn't actually have the credit/debit
numbers printed on the card, so nobody could take a picture of your card and
use it to fraudulently purchase things online.

This + Simple would be perfect.

------
timrogers
This product is overly restricting it's market, I feel, since in Europe EMV
(or "chip and PIN" as it's known in the UK) is ubiquitous. Payments worldwide
are moving over to this system from magnetic strip cards, so I fear that this
(useful) product has been invented too late once the tech it relies on is
already speedily in decline!

I imagine, due to how the cryptography works, it might not be as simple to
create a product like this for chipped cards.

~~~
evck
It appears that they plan to do EMV in the future. This is rather scary, since
you're trusting their hardware, and probably your phone, with the private key
in your chip card.

~~~
PeterisP
As far as I know, EMV has no way for the user (or bank's employees, for that
matter) to get that private key out of the chip card; if it was possible then
the whole concept would be pretty much useless and allow easy cloning of those
cards just like the old magstripes.

The system doesn't allow to "trust other hardware", the card itself has to
sign every transaction.

------
dcpdx
The moment this gets turned down by a merchant you visit frequently, there
goes the magic. That means you'll have to keep your regular card in your
wallet along with your Coin, and the whole value prop comes crashing down. It
seems interesting as a novelty, but I'm not sure I'd pay $100 to play with the
cool kids in this case.

------
teamanco
I have mixed opinions on this - it feels like a cosmetic solution to a
somewhat non-problem.

Would I carry it?

As of yet - no, I would rather use iphone apps etc.

The other problem that it misses is the show that people like to make of using
a certain card.

I have an amex platinum for business purposes, but I still get a bit of thrill
every time I use it and I get a look, how does Coin approach that problem?

~~~
wwwong
credit cards only make up 10% of what's actually in my wallet. Now if they
could minimize health insurance cards, loyalty cards, etc.. etc... then we're
talking.

With that said. I still signed up :-)

------
techaddict009
"Q. Will my Coin work outside the U.S.? A. Not in all cases.

U.S.-based customers: Coin will work overseas, but we recommend that you bring
a backup card when you travel.

Customers located outside of the U.S.: Coin does not support EMV yet. If the
country you live it requires it we recommend holding off your purchase for
now."

Found this in FAQ section.

~~~
PeterisP
"Coin does not support EMV" is an interesting statement - I can't see how they
could ever support EMV without explicit cooperation from every issuing bank,
which they won't have.

------
njharman
$100/2 years lifetime for something that is just a bump in convenience seems
high. I was real excited but don't think I'll find it worth it at that price.

A "better" solution would be a reverse square. Something that connected to my
phone / had an app that I could then swipe in a card reader.

------
rbellio
Moving beyond all the security concerns and potential technology shifts in
this space, I'd be concerned with durability. By the time my credit cards
expire, I typically have had to replace them at least once due to wear.

I'm not charged an additional fee to get those cards, but this would cost me.

------
mikelbring
A lot of places ID you when you use a card. I wonder how that would work. I
don't see a name on it.

~~~
sjtgraham
Requiring ID is against the rules of every major card network; so are things
like adding surcharges, and having minimum transaction amounts. Think about
it, anything that adds friction to using a card makes it more likely you might
use cash, eating into the card network's revenues. Anything that does that is
likely to be frowned upon or prohibited.

Report merchants that do that.

For Visa, call your card issuer.

For Amex, call them.

For MasterCard - [http://www.mastercard.us/support/merchant-
violations.html](http://www.mastercard.us/support/merchant-violations.html)

~~~
dangrossman
None of that is true.

The card brands explicitly train merchants to check signatures against
government-issued ID. [1] [2]

Card brands may not prohibit minimum charges per federal law. [3]

Visa and MasterCard agreed to allow credit surcharges in a settlement
agreement for a long-standing class-action suit by retailers. [4]

1:
[http://usa.visa.com/merchants/risk_management/card_present.h...](http://usa.visa.com/merchants/risk_management/card_present.html)

2:
[http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchant/pdf/Unsigned_Credit_Ca...](http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchant/pdf/Unsigned_Credit_Cards-\(Global\).pdf)

3:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodd%E2%80%93Frank_Wall_Street_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodd%E2%80%93Frank_Wall_Street_Reform_and_Consumer_Protection_Act)

4:
[http://usa.visa.com/personal/using_visa/checkout_fees/](http://usa.visa.com/personal/using_visa/checkout_fees/)

~~~
sjtgraham
No. You are wrong.

> The card brands explicitly train merchants to check signatures against
> government-issued ID.

When the card is _unsigned_. Every card I have is marked "NOT VALID UNLESS
SIGNED". It absolutely is a merchant violation to demand government issued ID
when presented with a valid signed card. A card signed "SEE ID" is clearly not
valid.

As far as you're other points, the US is not the only legal jurisdiction or
market in the world.

~~~
dangrossman
I'm not wrong.

It is a violation to make ID a condition of accepting Visa at all. It is not a
violation to ask for ID from specific customers, regardless of whether the
card is signed or not. It says this very clearly in the "Card Acceptance
Guidelines for Visa Merchants" booklet. The closest they get to forbidding it
is a recommendation that you don't make it part of your standard procedure as,
and I quote, "it can slow down a sale and annoy the customer".

In the case of a suspicious transaction, the merchant is also supposed to call
Visa for a "Code 10 Authorization". One of the things Visa may do is instruct
you to check the customer's ID.

If a store asks you for your ID, calling up Visa to report a violation won't
do you any good as they haven't violated anything. As far as your jurisdiction
punt, we're talking about a product intended (and only really usable) for the
US.

------
c0ur7n3y
It seems like this would be rife with data collection and selling to 3rd
parties on the back end.

------
snowplay
This looks like a copy of GEODE, a failed Kickstarter project from iCache in
2012.

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1404403369/geode-from-
ic...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1404403369/geode-from-icache)

------
doughj3
"Coin (YC W13) launched a universal credit card"

Title is incorrect here, Coin hasn't yet launched anything besides a pre-order
website.

GIGAOM's title here is "Meet Coin, a startup creating a universal credit card"

------
derengel
This would not work in my country, since most places also ask for an ID to
check you are the owner of the credit card. Maybe for debit cards ( because of
the pin), but I can see it raising some fraud alerts ;)

------
seanMeverett
C'mon guys. Let's ease up. It's an elegant product in a physical package that
I think most everyday people would use, especially if they're able to get the
price down to free like square.

The real issue I see is that I don't want to carry a phone AND a card. I just
want to pay with my iPhone 5S + thumbprint.

Or, if I'm in NYC and want to go running through the streets slash central
park, I want to pay with my iPod Nano for the train, for some water, and even
some food.

Heck, take it a step further. Just imbed a bluetooth chip inside my thumb so I
just have to press it to a payment terminal anywhere.

It's just a roadmap, but you have to start somewhere.

------
SnowProblem
Dynamics Inc out of Pittsburgh created the first card with a programmable
magnetic strip in 2010. I wonder if Coin is licensing their technology. Does
anyone know?

------
mvkel
Really excited about this. I'm a huge fan of carrying as little as possible,
and this alone will remove 90% of what's still in my pockets today.

------
xianshou
This will never succeed, because having too many cards to keep track of is a
$100 problem for only a small percentage of the population.

Also, I just bought one.

------
sixQuarks
The revenue model is out of whack. The average consumer is not going to pay
$100 for something like this.

~~~
dangrossman
The average consumer is not an early adopter of brand new technology products.
Early adopters pay higher prices for new products to come to market and,
eventually, reach sufficient scale to lower costs for mass market.

------
xpop2027
Interesting that no one has mentioned Loop: kickstarter.com/projects/loop/pay-
with-loop

------
ars
I hope they also add a laser readable barcode display so I can put
loyalty/discount cards on it.

------
pit
Why do people have so many credit cards? I use one (1) debit card to pay for
things, or cash.

~~~
dougk16
I always use a credit card, just for the fraud protection...no idea how, but
my CC has been used fraudulently 3 times over the years, and each time, with a
quick phone call, the charge is gone, basically no questions asked (they
assume fraud and go from there)...contrast that with a debit card where the
money is actually being taken out of your account.

My wife recently used her debit card at a restaurant and they accidentally
double-charged her. The restaurant recognized their mistake, but were being
pains getting us refunded, requiring bank statements and such, so instead I
called the bank (Wells Fargo), and it was 2 weeks before they said "Sorry,
nothing we can do, take it up with the restaurant." We ended up getting the
money back, but it was a real pain.

~~~
pit
Thanks for the explanation. Thankfully, I've never been a victim of financial
fraud. I also do my banking with a local bank, so I have a great relationship
with them. If something bad happened, I feel confident that they would take
care of it quickly.

------
studio816
With all the news about Bitcoin these days, why would they choose a confusing
name like Coin?

~~~
wwwong
I like the double meaning of coin:

1) Represents money 2) Creating a new phrase - or way to think about credit
cards

------
jordhy
This is simply genius. It's surely going to be a great success. Preordered.

------
piratebroadcast
Whats to keep a waiter from skimming my card on the sly with this?

~~~
dangrossman
Nothing more than what keeps them from skimming your card today with a _free_
Square/PayPal/GoPayment card reader.

------
vincentleeuwen
Looks pretty cool. Too bad the holograms are not included :)

