
My Ukraine - piercestanley
http://www.brookings.edu/research/essays/2015/myukraine
======
mr_luc
I think that this article could end up being cited a lot. It has a very
believable thesis. I'd like to see it put to the test, and then condensed down
and hopefully inform news reporting a bit.

If we accept that, as a member of the super-wealthy post-USSR kleptocracy
engaged in an endless Presidency, Putin is naturally most concerned about
maintaining domestic power, then the thesis is: massive uprisings in their
largest ex-Soviet neighbor, against a Russian-allied President, where the
public floods into the President's palace and becomes even more enraged at
evidence of their wealth (a golden loaf of bread; a pirate-ship restaurant),
make it _impossible_ domestically that Putin not respond with a show of force.

As the article says, he and his chums have palaces too.

~~~
felipepiresx
People like you completely miss the point on Russia. You cannot accept that it
is indeed a democracy, that people are not brainwashed. And that pretty much
the contrary of what western media portrays is happening there. Trust me, i've
been there.

~~~
ljak
They are not brainwashed to the same extent that the people of North Korea are
brainwashed, but the majority of them do get all of their news from (State-
owned) TV channels and uncritically subscribe to the ruling party's ideology.

Like Neocons in the US.

~~~
pluma
They're brainwashed to the same extent that many people in the US are
brainwashed.

The wonderful thing about modern propaganda is that it has become so subtle we
often mistake it for our own opinions.

As a European when I watched CNN for the first time at the early stages of the
Iraq war, I first wasn't sure whether it was supposed to be satire or fiction.
It took me a while to realise that this is what many people think of as "news"
in the US. Makes me wonder what I miss in our own news media -- you only spot
bold faced lies when you have a trusted reference you can compare them to.

------
analyst74
I followed the news for a while now with regards to Ukraine. I don't
understand why people are arguing about legitimacy of things in international
politics.

The facts are simple:

\- Russia had Ukraine in her iron grip

\- EU was expanding east

\- pro-Russian president turned down EU's offer

\- Ukrainians got pissed, because the state of things suck and they want
change, and EU seems like a good idea (whether it will work out for them is
another story)

\- they overthrew the pro-Russian government, and got a pro-EU one, who is
unfortunately also quite corrupt, but that's beside the point

\- Russia is pissed, and finds a way to intervene.

In short, the west started a diplomatic/cultural war in Ukraine, and Russia
lost, so it's resorting to physical war now. There is really no good guys in
international politics.

------
at-fates-hands
I've known several people from Croatia, Latvia, Georgia and now Ukraine. They
all look down upon Russians and are easily offended when people refer to them
as such.

Definitely no love loss for Putin or Russia among them.

~~~
goerge1980
I am sure a lot of North Osetians in Georgia are offended when they remember
Georgia invading them and killing helpless people because the prime minister
of Georgia back then was a US puppet.

------
Shivetya
While Putin has many faults blaming him for the situation that lead up to
modern day Ukraine is not right. The Ukrainian people overthrew their elected
government lead by Yanukovych who may or may not have sought Russia's help in
protecting his government. Basically a series of dysfunctional leaders led to
Yanukovych's ouster and when they could not get their affairs in order Putin
took Crimea.

So while Putin's people are likely causing issues in Ukraine it is just as
likely there are many people in Ukraine who did not support the revolution and
seek outside support for the last legitimately elected government.

TL;DR. the people of Ukraine made a mess of it, gave Putin and opening, and
still cannot sort it out. Not the news HN should be showing

~~~
smhenderson
_Putin took Crimea._

That's enough for me to put the blame squarely on Russia for the current
situation. Whether the people who initiated the coup against Yanukovych
represent the entire population, a majority or a minority, it's an internal
Ukrainian affair and Russia has no business interfering.

Add the take down of the Dutch plane, the nonsense about tanks taking "relief
supplies" over the border, soldiers getting "lost on vacation" and it's pretty
clear that Putin is engaging in an illegal war.

And, yes, I am from the US. I don't agree with our illegal wars either so
please don't go there.

~~~
felipepiresx
Crimea was Russian and voted to join Russia. Illegal wars are what the US
wages around the world. Russians are helping the insurgents unoficially
because Nuland and that scumbag US ambassador placed a Nazi Junta in power.

~~~
a_c_s
1\. Crimea was Ukrainian from 1954 until Russia's invasion. 2\. The election
held after Russia invaded was neither fair nor free. Non-citizens were allowed
to vote and militias coerced voting.

------
ISL
The article title is "My Ukraine", highlighting the distinctive personal-
perspective nature of the piece.

Mrs. Freeland's long-duration take on the situation makes it most worth
reading.

------
kvark
Seems pretty one-sided and biased. Mentioning Putin personally way too many
times, unrelated to the proportion of influence that he's got in the
situation.

We are engineers here, we know that big disasters come from a complex of
different factors. Why do you think Ukraine is an exception, why continue
blaming a single person? I don't see why this sort of article should be on HN.

------
juliangoldsmith
I wonder if the Russian government's Internet trolls try to compromise
accounts to make discussion look legitimate.

For instance, felipepiresx was entirely inactive for over a year, before
jumping all over this thread 20 minutes ago.

~~~
felipepiresx
with all due respect. I'm a person. I'm Brazilian. I'm not Russian. It's
amazing how dismissive people are of people who have a contrarian opinion.

~~~
serg_chernata
A Brazilian, how could you possibly know what's really happening on the ground
in eastern Europe?

edit: spelling

~~~
felipepiresx
I've been there.

------
amyjess
You can begin a lot of things with "The nightmare Vladimir Putin has visited
upon"...

I'm an LGBT person (specifically, I'm both L and T), and after seeing what
Putin did to my people, I have absolutely zero respect for anyone who supports
Russia in any way.

~~~
pluma
Radical ideological extremism is harmful, no matter whether you think you're
justified.

Yes, a lot of Russian politics are pretty worrying and negatively impact the
lives of all kinds of people, but if you paint everyone in such broad strokes,
you end up coating the entire world.

~~~
amyjess
It's literally illegal to say it's OK to be gay in Russia. They are an
oppressive government that is targeting my people for extermination.

~~~
felipepiresx
It's not illegal to be gay in Russia. Although their gay law is backwards.
It's a far cry from what you see in the Middle East. It looks more like what
you see in Middle USA. Conservative, yes, oppressive and dangerous, not
necessarily. Im for LGBT rights, but this topic is overblown.

~~~
amyjess
I live in Texas, I am out and proud as a transgender lesbian, and I've never
had any problems. It's not illegal to say it's OK to be gay anywhere in the
US, but it is in Russia.

It _is_ oppressive and dangerous.

~~~
felipepiresx
Not true. I've seen gay people and bars in Russia. You clearly have never been
there. Go back to watching MSNBC and screaming MUrica

------
shit_parade2
Odd since it was America which instigated the Ukrainian coup, inflamed ethnic
tensions, and continue to push towards military conflict.

~~~
Muromec
>ethnic tensions

No ethnic tensions really happened in Ukraine ever. Biggest problem I (as
ethnic Russian and Ukrainian citizen) ever had was about spelling my name in
Latin letters.

It's totally made up topic that just appears before elections.

You can use spoken and written Russian almost everywhere including contracts,
court, communication with government employees, etc.

~~~
felipepiresx
The people in the east would disagree. There are ethnic tensions. Even VICE
shows Nazi ukranian soldiers.

~~~
Muromec
They may happen now in Russia-occupied and war-torn areas and boarding areas,
but don't happen on the South that is controlled by government and where
Russian-speaking and people of Russian ethnos also live.

Yet, at Donbass and Crimea Ukrainians and Crimean tatars are threatened.

So yes, there are ethnic tensions now, thanks to Russian govt.

