
Phil Schiller, Craig Federighi and John Ternus on the State of Apple’s Pro Macs - rbanffy
https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/06/transcript-phil-schiller-craig-federighi-and-john-ternus-on-the-state-of-apples-pro-macs/?ncid=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29&sr_share=twitter
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mikenew
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I'm surprised and glad that
Apple has broken their vow of silence on ever talking about future products or
plans. On the other hand, it's pretty clear from their talk that they are
_just now_ starting development on a new Mac Pro, and they're saying "not
coming this year" makes it seem like they don't even want to commit to 2018.

They let the Mac Pro sit there for over 1200 days without a single update or
price drop. It's hard to think that they weren't planning on just killing it.
And they're apparently surprised that developers are buying non touch bar
macbooks, which considering how many developers use vim just seems weird. It
seems like it took a big outcry and actual sales numbers to make them realize
their pro segment isn't happy, and considering you _can 't_ develop for iOS or
in many cases macOS unless you own a mac, I just don't feel reassured.

~~~
old-gregg
Why do people even need Apple to produce Mac Pro? If this is for developers,
they can build their own, and probably do a better job for less money: it's
just a PC with components that OSX has drivers for [1].

I also don't quite get what are they going to be spending all this time on,
what kind of "designing" is going into it? Picking components on NewEgg and
figuring out the shape of their Apple-branded case? :)

Seriously, unlike mobile/laptops, Apple has no competitive advantage in
traditional desktop computing. They don't make CPUs, chipsets, GPUs, etc. And
there's no battery to fiddle with, or a case to make thinner or a keyboard to
mutilate.

[1]
[https://www.tonymacx86.com/buyersguide/april/2017#CustoMac_P...](https://www.tonymacx86.com/buyersguide/april/2017#CustoMac_Pro)

~~~
mikenew
I've been doing the hackintosh thing for a few years now. It sucks. Every now
and then an update completely breaks it, and it's a crapshoot of disabling
different kernel extensions, picking the right nvidia driver, or finding the
revision of Clover that works for whatever reason. iMessage has been finicky
since ever. My bootloader fails every other reboot for no reason I can figure
out. The nvivia driver won't load unless I unplug one of my three monitors
while it's booting.

I make my living off of iOS development, and I don't even want to think about
the amount of time I've lost over the past few years because I had to debug my
machine rather than work. Apple seems to be quietly tolerating the hackintosh
community, but they need to provide real options for their developers. I'm
tired of this unholy monstrosity of a computer that isn't supposed to exist.
I'm not going to do it forever.

~~~
Nullabillity
Sounds like your problem is OSX, not the computer itself.

~~~
oliv__
The whole point of a Hackintosh is OSX.

------
bhauer
I'm not a Mac user, so I am not sure if there's something fundamental I am not
appreciating, but I do not understand why releasing a high-specification
desktop computer requires a year or more of design and planning. I _do_
recognize that Apple has a reputation for making uniquely-designed cases, and
I suppose there is some merit in that, but ultimately, a desktop computer
gives a great deal of flexibility to design.

On the easiest side of the spectrum, Apple could take the previous-generation
desktop case (I believe Mac users lovingly call it the "cheese grater") and
install a modern motherboard, CPU, memory, disks, and GPUs. There's virtually
no design effort needed. Maybe a SuperMicro Xeon workstation board, a couple
Xeon E5s, 64 or 128 GB of memory, a bunch of SSD and disk options, whatever
GPUs work well with macOS. (These parts are roughly what I've used in my
personal workstation with great success; but I don't run macOS.)

Hackers do this every day that a Hackintosh is booted for its first time; but
such hackers don't have the luxury of battle-testing device drivers for their
grab-bag hardware. So they nervously worry about operating system updates.
Obviously Apple would spend a month or two ensuring the drivers are
bulletproof and _boom_ , there's a new high-specification Mac Pro.

If reusing an old design is simply too uncouth to contemplate, they could
design a new nice, minimalist case sized for industry-standard components.
Dozens of PC case designs would pass muster. I suspect most people who
actually want a Mac Pro don't care if it's ultra compact or a mid-tower that
sits on the floor. Why invest so much engineering effort in making it compact?
Take away the size constraint and the required engineering effort essentially
evaporates.

~~~
protomyth
Not a defense, but I am guessing they are waiting for the next set of Xeon
processors on Intel's roadmap. I understand Intel has announced 2018 Q1 for a
group of processors.

~~~
edvinbesic
Not only that, but I think that Apple is feeling the Pro user backlash and are
really trying hard to say "sorry, but there is something awesome in the
pipeline" where the pipeline is a few months old at most.

It takes a while to get a product to market and this would seem to answer most
of the criticism the pro market has had with the mac pro so far, the macbook
pro is a different beast.

~~~
nihonde
Apple has weathered, and thrived during, much worse "backlashes" than the
current one, which is itself lacking any evidence of being a real thing in
terms of Apple's bottom line. AAPL is up over 50% since I bought it last year
when everyone was claiming the iPhone was over.

------
wilsynet
If they were really committed to the pro market, they'd just release a new Mac
based on the cheese grater Mac Pro from 2012.

Instead they have to spend 2 years making it beautiful. Some kind of unique
design. As if the reason I want a high end desktop is so it can look good.

By all means, go work on something spectacularly beautiful. Take all the time
you want. While you're doing that, how about a basic tower with some fast
chips, fast graphics, a boatload of memory and a some ports and a big fan. You
know, a computer as opposed to a fashion statement.

What a bunch of buffoons.

~~~
kranner
> You know, a computer as opposed to a fashion statement. What a bunch of
> buffoons.

The fashion statement as you put it is their biggest differentiator. You are
being unfair or shortsighted from their perspective.

~~~
pavlov
For the Mac Pro market, their biggest differentiator is that an Apple-branded
desktop computer comes with a legal macOS license. That's it.

They could just keep selling the "cheese grater" design with updated Intel +
NVIDIA guts, and users would be happy.

This design conundrum is entirely Apple's own doing.

~~~
kranner
I would be happy if they reverted to the previous Mac Pro design. It was
expandable and looked IMO better than the dustbin.

------
hallman76
_Ina Fried (Axios): [...] What have you learned from what pros are saying
about the new MacBook Pros?_

 _Phil Schiller: [...] Generally there’s certainly been feedback about I /O. I
think the I/O has been for some great because of the performance it delivers
and the flexibility it delivers. Others would like some legacy connectors, but
there are adapters for that. We’re not done gathering feedback, but generally
things are going really well with it._

The reality distortion field on this guy is impressive.

~~~
usaphp
> The reality distortion field on this guy is impressive.

Why exactly? Sure there are some people who want legacy connectors, but
majority don't really care, in the last 3-4 years the only time I used non
type c USB connector is when I was charging my phone. When I got a new Mac I
just got a type c cable for 10$ - problem solved.

~~~
ksk
Since they call it a Pro, I assume professionals use it to connect devices
they already own. Audio/Video professionals need to connect several audio
interfaces, external HDDs, SD Card readers, external monitors/projectors,
headphones, maybe ethernet if the wifi in a hotel is spotty, etc. Asking
someone to spend hundreds of dollars on adapters on TOP of the already
expensive hardware and calling all these usecases "legacy" is insulting.

------
ProAm
This is PR triage, its good they are doing it, but why in earth did it take
them so long. Apple made a wrong turn when they tried to be a lifestyle
company first and technology company second, hopefully they get it turned
around. I still think Tim Cook is out in 2.5 years.

~~~
blackguardx
You can't blame Tim Cook for that. In my eyes, Apple started being a lifestyle
company with the release of the original iMac. I remember how much people
complained about the lack of upgradability and the lack of a floppy drive.
Deja vu...

I think the transition was complete with the release of the iPod and iTunes
and the way they advertised it.

~~~
tedmiston
The first iPod even.

"It doesn't even have a memory card."

~~~
Schlaefer
Not really. Memory cards were what back then? 128 MB at best? The iPod had 5GB
storage build in.

~~~
tedmiston
Not my comment, just referencing the common sentiment that people, especially
non-Apple users, made wrt it being a closed box without expandable storage.

~~~
Schlaefer
I understand, but I can't remember that anybody - esp. outside the very small
Apple bubble - cared about the product itself or extensibility in particular.
I would completely dispute that extensibility was a common concern.

At the time PowerMacs came with 40 GB of storage so 5 GB was a lot. Absolute
size wasn't a hot topic. And practically nobody else had an Mp3-player so
swapping with friends wasn't a thing either.

~~~
tedmiston
Thanks for adding your thoughts. I don't have more time to dedicate to this
thread today, but the information I mentioned is accessible in Google by
filtering back to that time period should you feel inclined. I'm surprised
that you insist otherwise, as it was mentioned often especially when the drive
size didn't change much with the first few generations.

~~~
Schlaefer
> The first iPod even.

I was specifically talking about that device. Taking later years into account
the situation may of course be somewhat different.

------
microcolonel
Important to note that applications and processes follow a trajectory from
stationary workstation to portable over time. The applications and processes
that you can afford to run on your portable today are the ones that you could
afford to run on your stationary workstation before.

When new laptops come out, the software people run on them is often the
software that they previously could not run on laptops.

If they cut off the flow of new desktop applications, there will be nothing
impressive to run on the laptops on launch day.

~~~
exergy
I'm going to say that that is a fairly minor point. Most people who really
_need_ pro level stuff known what they're going to use it for.

CFD guys are still using software from the 80s and 90s. Same for finite
element guys. Video producers already know whether they prefer Adobe premiere
or final cut etc.

Flashy new release titles matter much less than specs, I'd say. That, and
upgradeability.

------
bangonkeyboard
Points to Ulanoff for referencing the "courage" meme to Phil Schiller's face.

~~~
FireBeyond
Let's see if he's invited to the next exclusive blogger sitdown...

------
goodroot
I belong to the pro market, but I love video games. I am eager to hear some
details around how they view Macs in the gaming world.

The limited gaming available on a 5k iMac was great while I had one.
Civilization, World of Warcraft, Diablo, Starcraft... Jaw dropping, but barely
scratching the surface of what Apple could do if they gave some love to the
market.

~~~
renesd
Safari is probably the best bet Mac has for Gaming at the moment. As someone
who has to update games which Apple breaks with every Mac release... it's the
most brutal platform. If you thought linux audio was tough... try delivering
games on a Mac that you don't want to break with the next update.

"But can't everyone just implement our Metal API? It's been so successful,
it's the best, you'll love it" No. No we don't love it. Please just implement
WebGL2. Thanks.

"But we neglected OpenGL for years, even though our pro users have been
begging for updates, and we think Metal is the best, you'll love it".

No. We want OpenGL updates. We are pros, and you promised us for years OpenGL
updates. This is why there are almost 0.0% of our apps released on Macos with
Metal.

"But we released the new macbook pro with an AMD card. We haven't really been
working on OpenCL, but use that. You'll love it".

No, we want CUDA. We are pros, and we told you we wanted CUDA. It's what we
use, because you stopped caring about OpenCL.

"I know we said we were serious about pro models, and that there would be a
new mac pro, but here is the same one with a minor update. You'll love it.
It's the best."

No.

"But we're listening."

No, you're bloody not.

~~~
CoolGuySteve
Metal and OpenCL frankly feel like something Microsoft would do. Advertise a
custom whiz bang API and then quietly drop it after 3-5 years due to churn in
middle management fiefdoms.

~~~
IBM
What makes you think Metal has been dropped?

~~~
jjoonathan
Ideas that dumb can only last so long. I hope.

Apple has no market dominance in the graphics/compute domain and they want
people to spend time and energy porting to a locked-in proprietary API when
they haven't even had success getting people to use cross-platform open APIs
like OpenGL/CL? Madness.

~~~
IBM
Are you kidding? Metal isn't just on macOS, it's on all of Apple's platforms.
With the iPhone alone they have all the market power they need.

~~~
fpgeek
This is shortsighted attitude that, in the long run, will be toxic for Apple.
It's one thing to not give developers what they want because you can't (
doesn't fit the technology or the product, don't have the resources or
whatever). It is quite another to do that simply because you won't (e.g. for
strategic lock-in reasons).

Yes, the iPhone gives them all the market power they need with some
developers, even many devlopers. But others don't care about the iPhone for
various reasons. Those developers, grumble, moan and eventually buy computers
that aren't Macs. And when those developers make great things they're outside
of Apple's ecosystem, encouraging other developers and customers to leave it
as well...

~~~
renesd
They've already lost a lot of high end UI, video, and game developers. Pretty
sure they're going to lose the mass market audio developers on this android
release. I guess audio latency is good enough now for many audio apps... and
that's where all the users are (well, in a year after upgrades they will be).
A lot of the existing apps have updated to use the new low latency APIs.

------
Corrado
I can envision a new Mac Pro machine that has lots of next generation ports
(Thunderbolt 3, USB-C, etc.) but also includes a giant dongle block full of
SDCard slots, USB-A, Lightning, and maybe even DB-9 or MIDI. As one of the
interviewers pointed out, a lot of Pro users have a lot of existing equipment
(cameras, keyboards, etc.) that they use every day. I think it would be
outstanding to give those users a easy, Apple approved way to upgrade to the
new standards. Apple could even turn it into a marketing idea - "We heard you,
and the latest Mac Pro comes with everything you need, right in the box!"
Hell, they could even sell it separately to all us '16 MacBook Pro users. :)

------
pdimitar
I am mostly self-patting on the back from these guys. And a very careful
language. And a subtle dismissal of competition.

I've read the whole thing very carefully and the only meaningful thing I was
able to parse was that they somehow got the hint that their new Macbook Pros
aren't universally loved, which is a big surprise. /s

Maybe a second thing -- that they plan to make 3 new Pros targeted at 3
different Pro user segments.

We'll see. But I am kind of baffled by that interview. It almost seems
pointless. Looks like it's done mostly to put their foot at the door.

------
adolph
Given Apple's track record of updating the current Mac Pro, why would anyone
think that whatever is released in 2018 would be any different?

If they release a board and case with upgradable everything, what's the
advantage over hackintosh?

An Apple strength is tight integration of hard and software within a personal
context (stated that way because multi-user/services mostly stink--shared
photo and music libraries etc). I think this strength and focus plays against
the orientation needed to produce a generalized computing device platform
designed for longevity/upgradability.

------
resist_futility
‘There are over 600 million PCs in use today that are over five years old.
This is really sad, it really is.” Phil Schiller

As Microsoft says eat your own dog food

~~~
nnain
It's sad for Apple's profitability; Not sad for the world. #sustainability and
#environment matter.

------
msie
So, it seems that they have to ramp up a team to design the next Mac Pro? Oh
dear.

------
pasbesoin
People don't take their Pro's to cafes. Spend less effort making the physical
design look unique, and more time making the functionality uniquely suitable
AND sustainable/upgradeable.

------
mruniverse
I wonder if the Mac would have touch if Microsoft didn't have it.

------
vazhifarer
Is there any news on a Pro MacBook Pro (ironically named)

------
Entangled
I insist they're missing a huge market segment between a $10 raspberry and a
$500 mac mini. A billion units of a $99 Apple-TV sized computer.

The Mac Nano.

------
bitmapbrother
I would have like to have seen a video of this. What a missed opportunity.

------
nodesocket
I actually don't support this behind closed door meeting with reporters. Steve
always ran things incredibly tight lipped, no need for transparency that's
part of the Apple experience. This is a leadership error in my eyes and seems
like a decision made by community.

~~~
jpalomaki
Probably this was not something Apple wanted to do, but felt they had to do.
While the pro segment is small, it is very vocal. Without this expectation
management maneuver, we would have been waiting for something to happen on the
Mac Pro side at each of the following launch events - and then the feeling
disappointed when they did not deliver.

~~~
tedmiston
Exactly and with thoughts from the vocal pro side compounding over the next
1-2 years... better to address it now and make it clear that they're
listening.

------
renesd
This reads like Donald Trump propaganda. "The mac is doing really well. We're
proud of..."

I guess this is the only USA made Apple product. Not really surprised they
can't execute.

"One of the interesting things through all this has been the feedback on
MacOS. It’s been so positive. "

~~~
fritzw
There is no propaganda like his propaganda. We won't know until the three
government investigations are complete

