

Why should I start my career at Microsoft, rather than a startup? - dmarinoc
http://blog.derrickko.com/microsoft-and-startups

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aaronbrethorst
I started my career at Microsoft and don't regret it for a second, but I
cannot imagine I'll ever go back. The reasons for going to Microsoft cited in
the original article at [http://microsoftjobsblog.com/blog/dear-jobsblog-why-
should-i...](http://microsoftjobsblog.com/blog/dear-jobsblog-why-should-i-
start-my-career-at-microsoft-rather-than-a-startup) are silly.

I could direct some snark at each bullet point, but they're sufficiently
ridiculous that instead I'll give my reasons for not regretting my four years
and two days of being a blue badge:

* Brand names are useful: when you're interviewing for your second job, no one will have ever heard of fribble.com (or whatever), but they'll know Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Apple, Facebook, etc.

* I met a huge number of people in a very short amount of time. The connections I made at Microsoft are still paying off today in terms of friendship, jobs, and intros.

* Relocation benefits are awesome. I grew up and went to school in Minnesota, and when I was hired by Microsoft, they paid for all of my relocation expenses. The odds of finding a startup that can/will do this are probably low.

* You'll be able to appreciate just how green the grass on the other side really is. Seriously: the amount of bureaucracy and political infighting can be stultifying. Understanding what you don't want out of the rest of your career is just as important as knowing what you want, in my opinion.

* "Our career paths provide clear steps for success" is silly, but the odds are that you'll never have a manager in a small company who is invested in growing your skills. Having some structure for a couple years to get this was useful for me.

Edit: one more:

* "Microsoft is getting ready to launch some of the most exciting products you’ve seen yet" is also silly, since the odds of you working on one of the 'cool' projects is incredibly low, but there is a lot to be said for the fact that _millions_ of people will use the software you help create. My work on Visual Studio impacted _every single user every day,_ which is ridiculously cool and humbling.

~~~
MartinCron
all of those items (except the last one) are good reasons to work for other
large tech companies. They would seem to translate perfectly to working at
Amazon, as well.

~~~
sharkweek
as a side note -- I have several friends who work at both Microsoft and Amazon
as I live here in Seattle.

My Microsoft friends are A LOT happier -- they have a much more balanced
schedule, are not expected to be available on a moments notice and feel much
more relaxed at their job. The friends I know at Amazon are very rarely off at
a normal time, have a lot more pressure from the higher ups and have to
regularly take high quantities of "on call" work.

~~~
dgr1375
From what I hear it is almost entirely based on your team. If you are on a
team that is working on a product that is forward facing or requires constant
uptime (AWS, eCommerce platform.. etc) then you can expect to share
responsibility for critical bugs or catastrophic failure. Kindle dev- not so
much.

As far as I know, this isn't as bad as everyone tends to think. I kind of
accept it along with the engineering culture- I prefer to be responsible for
my projects rather than wait til 9am to put out fires. But I may be biased as
a young, single, and so very poor student considering working for Amazon. If
anyone has a better idea of the work/life balance at Amazon, I'd be grateful
to hear more.

aaronbrethorst hit the nail on the head- there is a definite benefit to
starting at a large software company. For me and my friends whom are looking
for our first FTE positions, startups are daunting due to impostor syndrome.
In my case, I don't know if I am skilled enough to jump right into a niche
startup and be relied upon so heavily to ship. Amazon, Microsoft, etc provide
a great place to learn from very intelligent people in the industry.

~~~
sharkweek
Sorry, I don't mean to sound super discouraging about Amazon -- I think it can
be a great fit for right out of college if you're looking for some great
experience in a fast paced environment. They do have a very high burnout rate
though, as many people leave around the two year mark. One of my friends has
had three different managers in the past year (one fired, two quit).

I think as my specific social circle is reaching the twilight of our 20s,
those environments are less and less appealing for a lot of us but a few
wouldn't trade it for the world.

------
erehweb
Blog post quotes from a Kevin at Microsoft, making him look like a naive
cheerleader:

"On the other hand, choosing Microsoft to launch your career provides nothing
but upside.

Don’t believe the hype. I admit I’m biased, but for tech jobs, Microsoft is
your best bet."

But it omits Kevin's six reasons why it's nothing but upside, in between these
two paras. Good practice would be to show via ellipsis that something was
omitted. Better would be to give a more honest argument.

~~~
ahi
His "reasons" are more naive cheerleading. Frankly, I thought Kevin's post was
so vapid that a response was unnecessary.

------
ChuckMcM
Interesting. But its silly to try to generalize, folks are different. Some
folks do really really well in a big company atmosphere, others don't.

If you want to have an impact on the company, startup is a good bet.

If you want to be sure the company will be around long enough to pay off your
student loans, a publicly traded company is a good bet.

If you want to work on something thousands will use, a big company is a good
bet.

If you want to explore in a design space, a big company is a good bet.

If you have a vision you want to make real, a startup is a good bet.

If you want to learn what it takes to build a business around a technology a
startup is a good bet.

If you want to meet a spouse who is in a similar type of job, a big company is
a good bet.

There are so many different things you might consider.

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dko
OP here.

I've spent some time at Microsoft, and have only good things to say about my
experience.

My qualm isn't with the company, but rather, the content, approach and
flippant tone of Kevin's post. Having previously worked there, that's not
something I'd expect from the company, which is disappointing.

(cross posted this back to <http://blog.derrickko.com/microsoft-and-startups>)

------
akurilin
For engineers who are interested in personal and professional growth it's
ultimately about optimizing for learning. A business in which a lot rests on
your shoulders is an excellent environment to grow and learn, at least for a
certain type of people. Others enjoy the pace and the perceived
predictability/stability of larger teams.

If your priorities are to grow yourself as fast as humanly possible (remember
Derek Sivers and "There is no speed limit.") for a certain planned period of
time and you're ok with all of the sacrifices that the choice will entail (no
free time, no weekends, infinitesimal personal life, continuous ups and
downs), then I believe you're better off on your own, surrounded by very smart
people working in very smart and fast-paced teams. I do believe that the
overhead of working at a large firm where as a new developer you might spend
50% of your schedule in meetings is absolutely devastating to your career,
unless your career is to steadily climb the management chain, in which case
you'll probably do fine and don't need this kind of advice. I've had a very
similar experience to aaronbrethorst at MS and definitely gained a lot from
the ride.

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brnstz
Welcome to dialectics, brought to you by our friends at Ancient Western
Culture.

There are certainly happy people working at startups, and happy people working
at large companies like Microsoft. Certainly Microsoft's JobsBlog is going to
promote the benefits of working at Microsoft. It's up to you to decide if his
points resonate with you.

It's worth going to the original post and reading the six bullet points.
They're not dishonest, and they don't misrepresent the company.

If "you will launch code on day 1" is more important to you than "our benefits
are the best in the business", you may want to work for a startup. For many 22
year olds, this is the case.

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randomfool
I did not start my career at Microsoft, but I worked there for quite a while,
alongside many who did. As far as I am concerned, the primary upshot of
working there is that it's decent resume material. But beware- after 5 years
of being there, it starts being a resume killer. Seattle companies are wary of
developers too indoctrinated in Microsoft's ways. I would not recommend
staying there for more than 3 years.

Furthermore, I am very (very) thankful that I did not start my career at
Microsoft, but rather at small startups. The primary drawbacks I see for
starting at Microsoft are:

* You do not really learn from your mistakes- there are sooo many code reviews, design reviews, test reviews, etc that it's essentially waterfall planning and you have very little chance to experiment and fail. Which I think is critical for starting out. You're surrounded by very experienced people, but at first what you really need to do is to learn on your own (in a production environment).

* There is a certain lack of energy on many teams at Microsoft (not all, but a large majority). You're young, you have nothing to lose, may as well learn what it feels like to work on a small team and crank out features like your company is going to go bankrupt in 3 months.

* At Microsoft, you learn to code. At smaller companies, you learn everything. A bit of customer support, business models, ux design, etc. A small company gives you a great broad base of experience from which you can build on in any direction. Microsoft for the most part, is more of a specialist (one person who just works on installers, one person just working on build system, etc).

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shawnb576
I spent most of my career at Microsoft. 14 years, in fact. I had a great run
there, and there was a lot of good, and plenty of bad, like anything. I just
up and left one day, so take that for what it's worth.

But I did spend a lot of time hiring, coaching, and observing junior engineers
of all stripes.

At junior levels, I don't think it's about MS v Startup as much as "Big
Company v Startup". As Steve Blank says, startups aren't minified big
companies, they are a different species.

On balance, I still believe a bigger company is a better place for a first job
than a startup. This is not a rule, but a preference.

My main reason for this is that the number one goal of a new engineer is
learning to be a better engineer. On balance, this happens faster when you're
in the presence of more senior folks to mentor and challenge you.

If you're doing a startup with a bunch of folks with similar experience
levels, you'll learn plenty but you'll also bake in some bad habits.

A corallary, as noted here, is that a larger company pays you and let you
focus on your core job role, versus "wearing many hats", which is great for
someone who's got some things down pat, and not so great for n00bs.

This is a vast generalization and frankly there are some caveats here with MS
in particular (and maybe others, n=1) that might get in the way, but in
general I think structure is good until you're really equipped to make a run.

My first job was at a startup and I came to this conclusion when I left there
1996, and nothing in between has changed my mind.

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brg
There are many reasons to start your career at Microsoft.

Microsoft is an excellent company to start your career at if you have a
limited educational background and little which distinguishes yourself, but
you are willing to put in the work to overcome this.

Salary and pay for graduates from tier 1 schools is higher across the board
for new graduates. But with 1-2 years at Microsoft, many recruiters and
businessmen will put you on par with anyone else in the industry of similar
education and background. Microsoft is a chance to replace your local liberal
arts school CS degree beneath a solid pedigree.

Also, during those 1-2 years you will be given a great education in the
industry. In my experience, Microsoft provides plenty of interesting problems
and it also provides its new hires with the time to solve them. If have gaps
in your education, the people at Microsoft will provide you the chance to fill
them. A startup will provide a more feet to the fire experience, which may not
be compatible with your disposition.

Finally, Microsoft provides you safe entrance into the industry. If you have a
family, if you are writing on the side, if you are unsure that you've chosen
the right path Microsoft will provide you a solid paycheck and free
relocation. A startup will provide very little free time in comparison.

~~~
chrisbalt
Couldn't agree with you more. Microsoft is an excellent launchpad. Your points
are on point with most of the 20-somethings or 30-somethings I work with.
Can't wait to see what we're all doing in 10 years.

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orangethirty
Because I've never heard of a Microsoft check bouncing. But I've had startup
checks bounce. That's all the motivation I need. I wish Microsoft would hire
me. Would be fun.

