
I've Listened to Loud Rock Music All My Life. Now My Hearing Is Paying the Price - ilamont
https://www.wbur.org/artery/2019/03/08/loud-rock-music-hearing-loss/
======
magnetic
Protect your hearing before it's too late. We often think that the worse that
will happen is that you'll lose a bit of hearing and be hard of hearing when
you get older. If that's all you get, consider yourself lucky.

What could happen to you is that your hearing apparatus gets damaged to the
point of getting permanent severe tinnitus and hyperacusis. These are not mild
conditions - they are life changing conditions that bring people to the brink
of suicide.

To give you an idea of how serious it is, it is just second to Chronic Pain in
terms of suicide ideation in the population, and higher than Parkinsons',
Insomnia, and advanced cancer. See
[https://journals.lww.com/thehearingjournal/Fulltext/2016/070...](https://journals.lww.com/thehearingjournal/Fulltext/2016/07000/Suicidal_Ideation_Among_Patients_with_Chronic.6.aspx)

Tinnitus has no cure and no viable treatment other than mind-related
techniques to help you cope: there is no way to lessen the symptoms. It is a
terrible predicament to be put in, and if you are unlucky enough to suffer
from a severe version of it, it can easily take away your ability to think,
socialize, and sometimes perform basic tasks.

Unfortunately, protecting your hearing isn't sufficient to dodge tinnitus &
hyperacusis: there are other ways that can lead to it, such as ototoxic
medications, ear infections or other ear conditions such as otosclerosis,
cholesteatoma, etc. Still, it's your best line of defense, as one of the
biggest causes for Tinnitus is noise induced hearing loss. Please take it
seriously.

~~~
Jack000
another one is sudden hearing loss. I wish google searches for sudden hearing
loss would have an explicit warning to get to an ER immediately.

it seems most gps don't know about the condition, and on their advice I waited
until about a week after. Now I'm permanently deaf in one ear, with severe
tinnitus.

~~~
magnetic
Indeed, I did forget SSNHL. Sorry that you were victim of that.

At one week after onset you were still in the treatment window, but
unfortunately it doesn't always work (and obviously, the sooner the better -
but my surgeon told me he's seen cases as late as 2 months recover after
treatment).

I imagine you got steroids prescribed? Oral or intratympanic?

------
Noumenon72
One comment to add from someone who _didn't_ lose all his hearing and can
still eavesdrop on things. I worked in a plastic factory for ten years. They
issued free earplugs and free headphones to wear over the earplugs if you
wanted. They trained repeatedly on proper earplug insertion (pull up the top
of your ear so your ear canal is straight, insert till flush with pinna, wait
for foam to expand). They had a hearing acuity screen every six months and
gave everyone a break to go sit in the van.

Expecting young people to make individually good decisions based on advice
from old people has limited reach. It's no substitute for a culture and
regulations that make hearing protection easy and normative in the contexts
where it's most needed. I don't know if we could create that culture for loud
music concerts, but it would be a good cause.

------
markbnj
Worked as a roady for a band in high school. Worked in the holds of ships and
in engine rooms and around other very loud equipment as a young adult. Never
wore hearing protection nor did anyone ever suggest I wear it. At 58 I now
have pretty constant tinitus in both ears. Fortunately it doesn't really
bother me much. If you're young and work around loud equipment wear the plugs.
And brush your teeth and floss twice a day :).

~~~
rhinoceraptor
I'd say hearing protection is more important than brushing your teeth. You can
get artificial teeth that look and function just like real ones, but not ears.

------
techsupporter
It's funny that this popped up because I just got home from watching Captain
Marvel. I know I have at least some tinnitus because my world sounds like the
descriptions of it, but it's not so bad that it really affects my hearing.
That said, I have noticed that some movies--particularly Marvel explosion ones
in IMAX--sound much louder to me in my mid-30s. The higher sounds come across
to me as sharp or shrill.

One nice thing about going everywhere with a backpack is I'm used to having
earbuds with me so now, I just don't take them out of my ears when I get to a
movie. I still hear everything and it doesn't sound muffled, merely...turned
down, I guess, to a "good" volume.

I first hit on this when I forgot to take my earbuds out prior to, of all
things, a Weird Al concert (his "Vanity" tour at The Moore in Seattle). I'd
ridden the bus down there and had VIP tickets for the pre-show stuff so I sat
and watched it with my earbuds in for listening to his music during the lulls
in the pre-show activities. When Emo Phillips started, I forgot to take them
out and realized after the show that my ears weren't ringing (louder than
usual) and I didn't have the beginnings of a headache.

~~~
_kyran
One nice thing about going everywhere with a backpack is I'm used to having
earbuds with me.

For anyone else that doesn't want to carry a backpack, a set of earplugs fits
great in the coin pouch of a wallet, or attached as a keychain.

~~~
rhinoceraptor
A good set of concert earplugs are like $15, everyone should have them. I also
find occasionally if I'm in a loud restaurant, they help drown out the people
talking obnoxiously loudly and I can actually hear the people I want to.

------
rb808
My hearing isn't terrible, but in noisy restaurants I have a hard time
following conversations. I get tinnitus regularly (not constant) now too.

I've listened to a bunch of concerts and nightclubs, but I think its sitting
behind the computer for 40 hours/week with headphones on that really killed my
hearing. It doesn't have to be so loud, just combined with lots of hours each
day isn't good.

I've started getting regular hearing tests and cut back headphones to a few
hours a week, but I miss the music.

Don't overdo the headphones!!

~~~
rhinoceraptor
Concert earplugs might help a bit in noisy restaurants. I have a set of
Etymotics that I like.

~~~
toper-centage
But then how can you follow conversations? Do they somehow only block
background noise?

~~~
rhinoceraptor
Concert earplugs are designed to reduce the sound level, but without muffling
any frequency ranges like foam earplugs do.

------
finaliteration
Somewhat related but I’ve always been curious about this: Why is music more
pleasurable to many of us when played at a level that could damage our
hearing? If I listen to my death metal playlists at only half volume I don’t
find it nearly as enjoyable, and I’ve never totally understood why.

~~~
rizzin
I have recently read a pretty resourceful thread on music mixing and recording
([https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=29283](https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=29283)).

A related piece of info from there is that rock/metal music is supposed to be
loud: drums blasting away, amps cranked up. But when recording and mixing you
take all that loud sound and energy and put it into an audio file that will
most likely be played back with lower volumes on all kinds of devices.

This is one of the main problems of mixing this kind of music: making music
that is supposed to be LOUD sound good at low volumes. So probably if that
goal isn't achieved in a perfect way then cranking the volume up will make it
sound better.

Another important thing I learned from that thread is that in general for us
humans "louder" is perceived as "better". Good example, a demonstration of a
compressor plugin:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6D9WvwMNr8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6D9WvwMNr8)

Plugin quality aside, you can easily hear that "on" parts are all louder than
"off" parts, and that really makes the demo "unfair" in that they sound better
simply by being louder.

And a related theory I've read long ago (sorry, don't remember where) is that
experiencing music at damaging volumes gives us some kind of masochistic
pleasure. This is why there are always people hanging right next to speakers
at loud shows, be it rock or EDM.

~~~
finaliteration
> gives us some kind of masochistic pleasure

I could see this being the case, sort of like how some people (me) enjoy
torturing themselves with extremely spicy peppers and foods.

------
kochikame
I remember going to a rock festival in Sweden around 2001 and telling people
they were being stupid for wearing earplugs. Enjoy the moment, I told people.
Listen to the music raw and unfiltered. This is rock music!

I was young, stupid and wrong.

I'm 40 now and I have pretty much continuous tinnitus.

Protect your ears, people.

~~~
marpstar
Same here, but playing in a band instead of just going to see them. Heavy
metal, small practice space. Heavy-handed drummer. I too thought earplugs were
“lame”, but eventually got sick of not being able to hear for 4 hours after
band practice.

Today, my right ear “cringes” (only word I can use to describe the feeling)
when anything loud like a restroom hand-dryer goes off for more than a few
seconds.

I wear earplugs to all concerts now.

------
nilkn
I'm 29 and have mild tinnitus. In my case, I'm fortunate that it's only
noticeable in a nearly silent room. Even a fan is enough to make it disappear.

That said, it's still scared me. I'm convinced it came from years of listening
to music loudly on headphones. I discovered quality headphones as a teenager,
probably when I was 16 or so, and remember being blown away by the fidelity of
the sound.

Late last year I decided to invest in a more expensive speaker setup for my
home PC, and I've tried to commit myself to using it over headphones and only
at a reasonable volume. The latter I find is self-enforced easily by my being
in an apartment complex. I went with the Audioengine A5+ speakers and their
associated subwoofer. Combined, it was more than twice what I'd paid for
headphones in the past, but overall I've been extremely impressed. The
speakers produce a clarity that is similar to what I'm used to with
headphones, and they're actually much better at producing a wide sound stage.

------
sverige
Yeah, I'm in my 50s and the audiologist describes my hearing loss as "severe
to profound," depending on the frequency range. I suspect that much of that
was at one particular concert after which my ears rang for three days. I
definitely lost a lot that time, but there was a lot of other loud music over
the years, too.

My hearing when I was a kid was as good as my mom's. She's a musician and has
always protected her hearing. She's in her 80s and has _far_ better hearing
than me.

You will never regret taking a bit of extra effort to protect your hearing.
It's never too late to start, either.

------
thatswrong0
I frequently go to stupid loud EDM shows.. I’m very curious what will happen
to my generation since even with earplugs my ears can be funny after shows,
probably from all the sub bass (which is much more prominent than at rock
shows).

I try to compensate by pretty much never listening to music otherwise, but I
feel like I’m going to be struggling in 20 years.

~~~
killjoywashere
You will feel dumb, not because of the music, that of course, but also, you
will feel dumb as you have to keep asking people to repeat themselves, as you
realize you're the one smiling and nodding without understanding, as you're
watching movies with the closed captioning on, etc.

------
btrettel
I was born with bad hearing and tinnitus. When I tell people, some are quick
to blame attending loud concerts, but I don't think I've attended more than a
couple concerts and none were particularly loud. Plus, I had both problems
well before the earliest concern I can recall attending.

Some advice: How loud flying is doesn't seem to be appreciated. I don't see
any mention of it in the comments here, and when I fly I am one of the few
with any hearing protection as far as I can tell. I wear both earplugs and
earmuffs. Don't laugh too hard. I've found both to be noticeably better than
either alone. I used to fly with nothing, but my tinnitus would be amplified
for days after flying. Aside from some people on the plane thinking that I'm
weird, I once had a TSA guy ask me if I intended to go shooting when he saw my
earmuffs.

I think I've accepted my tinnitus and bad hearing for the most part. It rarely
bothers me, and to be honest I sometimes find the tinnitus to be soothing. I
think that's because I never knew any different. Tinnitus is the sound of
silence to me. I speculate that others who develop these conditions later
might feel some loss that I don't.

~~~
dnr
Someone on a flight once explained to me that the noise on an airplane is a
large factor of why flying makes you tired: your brain is constantly
processing all that background noise and looking for patterns in it. Since
then I've always worn earplugs on flights, and usually also big over-the-ear
headphones over them (just turn the volume up slightly higher). It's been a
big improvement in flying comfort.

------
RickJWagner
I totally understand, I've got hearing damage and can't hear in a room with
multiple conversations ongoing (i.e. a restaurant).

In my case, it was operating a stump grinder that did it. I was so eager to
operate this cool power equipment that I didn't take a few minutes to get
hearing protection. Big, big mistake.

Please take care of your hearing.

------
Arbalest
Somehow I got tinnitus in one ear, and I didn't even go to any concerts. Maybe
headphones on too loud. None the less, a friend got me to try on a set of
Nuraphones, which I think are supposed to gauge how responsive your nervous
system is to sound, and surely enough I had lost a fair bit of high frequency
sensitivity.

~~~
larrywright
A word of caution on this - I too have some tinnitus, and I asked Lauren
Dragan (she does all of Wirecutter’s headphone reviews) on Twitter if she was
going to review these headphones. She responded[1]:

> I’ve tested a few pairs of those kinds of headphones already, actually.
> Even, Beyerdynamic, Nuraphone, MEE... if you have ok hearing, they aren’t
> worth it, and possibly problematic if you already have hearing damage.

> I’d spoken to an audiologist who is an expert in noise induced hearing loss,
> and he said that with no AMA oversight, there is no way of knowing if the
> raised frequency ranges could cause more damage on top of existing. The
> accuracy of the tests and programs on these vary wildly.

In other words, by boosting the volume of the ranges you’re having difficulty
hearing, it might actually increase your hearing loss in those ranges. I’m not
an audiologist, but that makes a lot of sense. I’m steering clear of this
class of headphones until there’s more known about them.

[1]
[https://mobile.twitter.com/larrywright/status/10048423527777...](https://mobile.twitter.com/larrywright/status/1004842352777756674)

~~~
Arbalest
When I tried the adjusted volume version of the higher frequencies, I didn't
like it anyway heh.

------
ladzoppelin
Damn that's sad. I have found that if you keep headphones at the same volume,
your hearing does not suffer. Always fix the noise isolation of the headphones
or change your surroundings before just turning up the volume.

------
piotrrojek
Lots of comments about ear-plugs for concerts and such. I'd like to remind
every motorcycle rider to buy them too! Especially if you're riding a naked
bike. Going moderately high speed on a highway for two hours made my ears ring
for another couple of hours after I reached the destination.

There are special ear plugs for riders too, that would cut out the wind noise,
while you're still able to hear your engine, other occupants of the road and
comms inside helmet if you do ride with intercom.

------
EADGBE
As an aging guitarist, I've become more serious about my hearing after I
learned that I've lost everything above 12.5k. I've switched to an IEM system
live, using a Kemper full-time for my "cranked amp" sound, and always having
earplugs and backups in the truck and at concerts. Nothing's worth losing any
more frequencies. I hardly break 80-85db anymore.

------
xivzgrev
Yes. Take steps to protect your ears. I played drums for years as a kid
without them and I have permanent tinnitus. Fortunately it’s not a dominating
presence, but I can always hear when it’s quiet around me. It has stayed at
same level for 15+ years because I started managing it - basically wearing ear
plugs to concerts / playing drums and keeping my ear phones to lowest level
possible.

------
shosko
Does anyone know which frequencies are the worst for your ears? I'm under the
assumption that mid and high level frequencies do the most damage, with low
frequencies doing the least. I would like to know the answer and stand
corrected.

------
DigiMortal
When I was 13, I used to wear a shirt that said "If it's too loud, you're too
old!"

...lol, yeah well now I take care of my ears. 13 year old me played Slipknot
as loud as possible and thought I was impressing everyone around me.

cringecringe yeahyeah

~~~
scarecrowbob
I sometimes I play music with rock stars in their 70s. They are freekin deaf.
Now I think "if it's not loud enough, you're not old enough".

~~~
magduf
I guess that's why Lars thinks Death Magnetic sounds just fine and can't hear
all the horrible clipping.

------
saladcopter
I’m 26 and I already have some tinnitus and I feel like some hearing loss.
I’ve listened to loud music since high school every day.

Is it too late for me? Would my hearing recorder if I gave it a break?

------
moneytide1
Going deep in the woods and being able to hear the smallest details all around
is more important to me than appearing tough to at a loud concert.

------
ilovecaching
If you get tinnitus and hearing loss in your 20s, is it possible to reverse
any of the damage, or is it permanent?

~~~
abfan1127
I think its permanent. I'm not aware of tinnitus ever getting better for
people.

~~~
zimpenfish
There -may- be improvement through notched listening.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4797223/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4797223/)

> TMNMT affected tinnitus loudness after 6 months but it was shown to be
> superior to the placebo condition after 12 months.

> Taken together, our results display a positive effect of three months of
> TMNMT on the subjective tinnitus perception, especially concerning tinnitus
> loudness.

But it's one of those things that definitely needs more study.

------
zeofig
The Capitals in The Title Give a Rather Ironic Impression of Loudness

------
kazinator
> _I always come prepared, with custom-made ear plugs that filter highs and
> lows equally. Protective preparation be damned, they played for 75 minutes
> and my ears rang for days._

That's what you get for using boutique plugs instead of the good old cheap
foam ones that do -30 dB.

Flat frequency attenuation ... for a rock concert?

Okay, first of all, due to the Fletcher Munson curves, the perception of bass
versus treble is affected by volume. If you want to hear the proper amount of
bass that you're supposed to hear at concert volume, but at a lower volume,
you in fact need to attenuate the highs more; certainly not flat attenuation.

Why not use wine corks for ear plugs; then you can literally do cork sniffing
before putting them in.

~~~
ubercow13
I have worn all types of earplugs at concerts, playing music etc. and the flat
attenuation 'botique' moulded ones sound so much better for any situation,
it's not even close. If the concert really is loud enough that 25dB isn't
enough attenuation maybe it's not worth going. If something is loud enough, no
earplugs will make it safe.

~~~
kazinator
You're not making a _level-matched_ A/B comparison. That's like mistake #1 of
audio engineering. Louder sounds better; plugs that attenuate -25 dB will
sound better than -32 dB.

~~~
ubercow13
No, I am comparing cheaper types of plugs with the more expensive ones, with
similar levels of attenuation. You are thinking of a quite subtle effect which
can lead you to think louder sounds are better, when they are actually the
same apart from the volume. The difference between the sound of different
types of earplugs is _massive_. There is no mistaking the difference.

