
Detained and interrogated for 10 hours in North Korea - leothekim
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36200530
======
sandworm101
While no doubt terrifying, the actual procedures and interrogation methods
here are little different than in western nations. US agents are free to grab
people as the leave the country. And 10 hours is nothing. A US court won't
think anything of a detention lasting less than 24 hours. Even the questioning
seems to follow standard law enforcement procedure, with teams of age-diverse
interrogators being rotated in and out periodically. So while I have great
respect for Rupert Wingfield-Hayes and will continue to do so, he should talk
to those who have been detained at other airports on similar accusations.

North Korea surely has a more dramatic penal system, a deadly one. But as this
reporter feared the labour camp, those at US airports faced with FBI agents
accusing them of terrorism see Gitmo and the black sites.

~~~
tptacek
It is not in fact normal in Western nations to be detained at the border and
threatened with a month's additional detention for writing that the nation's
people have the voices of dogs or ugly faces. Be careful about false
equivalence. Every Western nation does, or has recently done, many bad things.
Perhaps the US has done more bad things than most. But none of them are
comparable to North Korea.

This rhetorical point-scoring is so old it has several names; "tu quoque" is a
formal one, but the more evocative of them is "And you are lynching Negroes".

~~~
garrettgrimsley
No one claimed that it _is_ normal to be detained for insults in Western
nations, you're the only one arguing that point. Parent comment specifically
mentioned terrorism accusations in the context of treatment that Hayes
experienced and the fears he envisioned. Had they said that all travelers to
the US have fears of being held on terrorism charges then you would have a
point, but they didn't. It was limited to how people _already_ accused of
terrorism are treated [0] and what fears they have, not travelers in general.

>Perhaps the US has done more bad things than most. But none of them are
comparable to North Korea.

Playing that game won't be productive.

[0] [https://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/2013/08/22/dont-fly-
durin...](https://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/2013/08/22/dont-fly-during-
ramadan/)

------
jbmorgado
Sincerely, people should just stop going there. Historically it is extremely
difficult for a real regimen change towards democracy to be forced from the
outside. And by going there we are only giving them credit, since they show
what they choose to show that does not correspond to the reality of the
country.

Just close the contact, close the product transactions, let them (the party)
to rot for a while. The people will suffer a bit more for a time, but it could
be the trigger to have the people finally rebel against the regimen.

~~~
lisper
> Sincerely, people should just stop going there.

Because that worked so well in Cuba.

~~~
jeromegv
Americans might have stopped going but there has been 3 millions of non-
Americans tourists in Cuba every year.

~~~
lisper
It's the same situation in Korea, just a different mechanism. The refugee
crisis that would result from a DPRK collapse would land on China's doorstep,
so the Chinese will do whatever it takes to prevent that from happening. U.S.
tourists (or any tourists for that matter) not going to the DPRK won't change
that.

What _might_ change the situation is people in the DPRK meeting U.S. tourists
and seeing with their own eyes that we are not the monsters we have been made
out to be. Big societal changes can grow from small seeds of doubt.

~~~
drawnwren
Unfortunately, you can't actually meet DPRK citizens on a tour to the DPRK.
The only way you can visit is by going on a DPRK government-sponsored tour
where you are herded between 'culturally important' landmarks by government
approved tour guides. The DPRK is leaps and bounds ahead of you on controlling
this sort of 'cultural creep.' Also, they appreciate the significant donation
to their government for the short tour.

~~~
lisper
> you can't actually meet DPRK citizens on a tour to the DPRK.

Of course you can. Your government minders are DPRK citizens.

> The DPRK is leaps and bounds ahead of you on controlling this sort of
> 'cultural creep.'

Of course they are. But a tourism embargo is not going to change that.

Look, it's possible that the DPRK really is an evolutionarily stable strategy,
and they might be able to maintain their totalitarian regime forever. But _if_
there's a way to crack it, the most likely mechanism is through instilling
doubt into individual North Koreans that everything that they are being told
is true. The best way to do that is to _show them evidence_ that some of the
things that they are being told is not true, and you can't do that if you're
not there. You might not be able to do it even if you are there, but at least
if you're there, there is a possibility.

------
saiya-jin
I, as anybody here have no sympathy for any oppressive regimes, and NK one is
extreme out of extremes.

that said, journalist detained is an idiot. either completely incompetent and
uninformed on what it actually means visiting such a regime (hard to believe),
or just plain old ignorant bloated ego "I am above". from his own words on
description of situation, I am not surprised he was detained, rather that he
got out so easily from such a place.

~~~
djaychela
I think you might need to do a bit more research on Rupert Wingfield-Hayes...
he's neither an idiot, nor an attention seeker - indeed from the reports I've
seen him do from various undesirable places on BBC News over the years, it
appears he's a very competent journalist and not one who's afraid to be in a
dangerous place to get a story out.

Did you actually read the comments that the DPRK officials made about his
statements? Typical frame-up things, intentionally taking offence where none
in particular was meant. There are plenty of things that RW-H could have said
since being released which he appears not to have done.

The naivety of some of the comments on this thread is baffling to me. North
Korea isn't a problem which is just going to go away. It's far more stable
than the Syrian civil war, and that's been going on for years. NK could
continue indefinitely by doing what it's doing.

~~~
saiya-jin
if you write a rather insulting article about half of the countries in this
world (probably most/all muslim ones, and all non-democratic ones), you can
expect they might hit back when you visit again. surprise surprise - they did,
and in rather standard (and non-violent) way for these regimes.

it's a ridiculous place, nobody argues about that. most folks have common
sense and don't poke a lion in the eye with the stick in his own territory.
would you? probably not. then why should I have any sympathy for this guy? he
did exactly that, and his surprise when they detained him just shows what I've
written - ignorance.

would you go to Iran and write before an article in BBC saying how their
officers are idiots barking around? (i loved visiting that place, but common
sense is needed, and this guy didn't show much).

------
erikb
This is just attention seeking, not a real article. I have never worked as a
journalist but even I know: When you are in North Korea, you don't write
articles about North Korea. And if you have written western style articles
about North Korea in the past you don't ever go there. Everything else can
only be considered on purpose. There is no harm done here. I'm surprised that
with his attitude they only kept him for 10 hours.

~~~
ethbro
_> I have never worked as a journalist but even I know_

Curious, and how would you "know"?

~~~
garrettgrimsley
It can be as simple as reading the WikiTravel article about the country. Doing
the slightest amount of cursory research beforehand will clue you in. The
journalist has been there before, so it is safe to assume he is in the know.
It seems like resisting the urge to write the most trite garbage imaginable
was too much for him. The articles he wrote have been written countless times
before, so what was the value in his visit?

------
nxzero
Issue is he thought that because he was a reporter that he was not at risk,
which was foolish.

Anyone entering North Korea should realize that there is the very real chance
that they may be held against their will, be killed, etc.

Knowing this, only then should someone decide if it makes sense to visit.

~~~
crispyambulance
The point of the detainment was to get "an apology" for the published articles
for the purpose of making an example of the journalist for other news agencies
and also for internal audiences who may have read the articles.

These articles (and the "follow-up" detainment article) provided a valuable
glimpse into a closed society. I am confident Mr Wingfield-Hayes is a
responsible adult who can make his own decisions about risk.

------
jrcii
I was detained and interrogated for 12 hours in Congo, accused of being a spy
for the CIA. The whole thing was very scary.

~~~
jkot
Czech game developers face 20 years of prison in Greece... They took photos of
public buildings

~~~
maze-le
They were released over 3 years ago, after over 100 days in jail... They were
arrested for photographing a military base, wich is not exactly a public
building (and illegal in every country I know of).

~~~
logfromblammo
It is legal to photograph a military base (or any other government property,
for that matter) in the US, provided that you do it from the public right-of-
way (or any other place you would otherwise have a right to be).
Unfortunately, MPs, sheriff's deputies, and municipal police officers (if
applicable) are very likely to hassle you about it anyway, and possibly also
detain you on any convenient pretext, should you attempt it.

This had bred a variety of protester that will stand on the public sidewalk,
photographing things, until a cop shows up. The police encounter is recorded
in its entirety. Depending on what the cop does, the protester may then sue
for rights violations, and typically receives a settlement offer after the
judge sees the video, which then gets posted to the Internet to fan your
outrage.

~~~
dTal
I may have misread your tone, but you sound as if you find such protesters
distasteful. I for one hope they bravely continue, until such time as one need
not fear being detained on convenient pretexts for legal activities.

~~~
logfromblammo
Yes, you definitely misread. The only thing I find distasteful about such
protests is that those cops who enforce laws that do not exist are not
generally held personally accountable for their actions in any meaningful way,
even when they cost their county/municipality tens of thousands of dollars for
just a few minutes worth of unprofessional conduct.

------
Spooky23
Lesson: Don't go to North Korea.

~~~
april1stislame
I saw here on HN the other day a guy in the USA who's detained for 7 moths
without charge. Lesson: Don't go to, or stay in, the USA.

~~~
jbmorgado
Are you not allowed, as a visitor to the USA to go and report about any place
inside the USA were any other citizen of the USA is allowed to go and to
report about?

~~~
april1stislame
I don't know. You tell me, as you seem to be so well informed and ready to
jump in the defense of the USA. Are you not allowed, as a visitor to NK to go
and report about any place inside NK were any other citizen of NK is allowed
to go and to report about?

~~~
Thriptic
No, you are not, as evidenced by the presence of escorts throughout your stay
and the search of all of your digital media upon entry and exit of the
country.

~~~
april1stislame
Is that evidence that NK journalists don't get the same treatment as foreign
journalists? How so?

------
kurren
Sounds like the US for the wrong nationality/demographic, to me...

------
ck2
WTF does the BBC endanger their reporters by publishing anything while they
are in such an incredibly dangerous country?

~~~
unlinker
Pure Gonzo journalism

------
SubZero
I would like to point out the figurative middle finger the BBC is giving to
NK. The offensive material that they pointed to are still published on the BBC
website, even though the apology stated that they'd be taken down.

------
dmix
I'm curious if the decision to detain him came from the very top. Additionally
if it was actually because of the nuclear bomb question he asked the student
in the video.

------
user982
10 hours of questioning? What an authoritarian monstrosity of a state.
Civilized countries limit their overreaching interrogations-cum-intimidations
of journalists to 9 hours.[0]

How brave of the BBC to report dispassionately on this alien, backwards
nation.[1]

[0]:
[http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23782782](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23782782)

[1]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pnt_uT5YzQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pnt_uT5YzQ)

------
jkot
> _I was told that my reporting had insulted the Korean people, and that I
> needed to admit my mistakes. They produced copies of three articles that had
> been published on the BBC website, as I reported on the visit of the Nobel
> laureates._

Hate speech is punishable even in UK.

~~~
Kristine1975
Yes, but using "bark" as a synonym for "shout" doesn't count as hate speech.

~~~
jkot
It has negative connotation. People were charged (and jailed) for less.

Plus he wrote a bit more.

~~~
BasDirks
It has a negative connotation so it is hate speech? I think not. [edited: used
to read hate crime, wasn't paying attention]

~~~
ryanlol
You're the first one to bring up hate crimes here.

Edit: downvotes? Maybe you should look up UK hate speech laws before deciding
that violating them constitutes as hate crime.

~~~
throwaway7767
You're responding in a thread that started by someone claiming this was hate
speech, and your response to one of the child posters is that "You're the
first one to bring up hate crimes here". I imagine this is the reason for the
completely warranted downvotes. Context matters, and you're just diverting the
discussion without adding anything.

~~~
ryanlol
hate speech=/=hate crimes

UK has had, and still does have very aggressive legislation to combat "hate
speech" and offensive speech in general.

It's not very far fetched that such a statement could have been in violation
of said laws, but that certainly wouldn't make it a hate crime.

While jkots wording could have been better, there's still a very important
distinction here.

~~~
ptaipale
Well, if there's _very aggressive legislation to combat "hate speech"_, is it
unreasonable to call this target of combat "hate crimes" (or hate "crimes")?

With such aggressive legislation, I'm a bit wary of even going to the UK (I'm
not a native speaker of English.)

~~~
ryanlol
Yes, hate crimes are generally defined by the perpetrators motivations.

