

Ask HN: Why does evil succeed so well in our world? - diminium

I asked this questions a while back &quot;Ask HN: Why is it easier to make money by being evil?&quot; (http:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=4609433).<p>I gave an two examples.  One of internet companies keeping track of their users and selling the data to the highest bidder.  The other is how it&#x27;s easier to make money selling Orwellian central management software vs employee empowerment software.<p>It seems like it is much easier to succeed by doing evil things instead of doing good. Why is this?
======
NovemberWest
During The Great Depression, farms were having their equipment repossessed for
non-payment. The John Deere Tractor Company decided to do no such thing. They
told people "At some point, the weather will improve and you will need your
tractor. Pay us when you can." Supposedly, for decades afterwards, if a
tractor salesman for a different company saw a John Deere on a farm, there was
no point in stopping.

John Deere is still going strong. I imagine a lot of their competitors went
under during The Great Depression. It was impossible to sell the repossessed
tractors since no one had any money.

I am feeling pretty bitter (about my personal situation) and feeling like,
yes, evil wins. But I am not convinced the objective evidence really bears
that out.

~~~
nicholas73
The cynic businessman way to look at this is that John Deere knew repossessing
a tractor was pointless, because there would be no one to resell it to. It
would better to forebear the loan for later repayment and gain the goodwill.

~~~
NovemberWest
My oldest son is basically a sociopath. He once tried to tell me a good thing
he did was not really good because he did it for bad reasons. I assured him
there were no thought police and the only important part was that he had, in
fact, done the right thing.

I honest to god do not care what motivated their decision. I am a bleeding
heart idealist, or at least perceived as such. Yet, I think "doing right" is a
pragmatic thing, not some abstract ideal measured by some supposed god in some
supposed spiritual realm.

(But have an upvote. Good comment.)

~~~
nicholas73
Our minds are made to feel good doing the right thing, because it brings
social benefits, and hence evolutionary benefits. But logically we know when
to choose otherwise. So I don't think your son is a sociopath.

------
patmcc
Why are your examples "evil"?

Your first one might mean gmail serves me ads for chicken wings (which I want)
instead of diapers (which I don't). Is that evil?

As for the second, banks are under Orwellian central management - every penny
is recorded going in and coming out. Is that evil, or is that good for
everyone who holds a deposit? What's employee empowerment software exactly,
anyway?

~~~
Casseres
When I read the ASK HN headline, I immediately thought of stealing. Petty
theft, that is. To make stealing a career, I imagine it would take a lot of
work if you don't want to be caught - probably just as much as a legitimate
job.

I've seen things that would be pretty easy to steal and net a criminal
something equivalent to a good year's salary, but criminals are generally
stupid and blow their ill-gotten gains on stupid things, meaning they then
have to steal again to maintain their lifestyle.

------
nyan_sandwich
It is demonstrably not the case that it is easier to make money through evil
than good, at least historically; the world we live in now is quite nice
compared to the past, and that's the result of selfish people following
incentives. If incentives were aligned with evil, we would expect to live in
an evil world, and we do not.

There _is_ evil around every corner for sure, but it is outweighed by the
good. Sure there are incentives for scummy business practices that add a bit
of evil on the margin, but do you really think most companies are a net
negative? That that marginal evil isn't outweighed by the vast good and wealth
that is created as well?

The question you should have asked is "Why do i _think_ incentives align with
evil?", and the answer is "Because you take the good for granted and thereby
fail to notice it."

We're on the _Internet_. Show me some evil that outweighs the awesomeness of
_that_.

------
CyberFonic
"The love of money is the root of all evil"

It might be more of a case of motivation. Sociopaths don't care what others
think so they'll go for it, the consequences be damned. On the other hand,
nice people, who are the majority, will only go as far as their conscience
allows them. So in business terms "they choke". Of course, the tendencies of
greed and ego are in collusion.

To give just one example, bankers gave housing loans even to people who
couldn't afford them. Then they foreclosed on those homes. A "nice" banker
would have said "Sorry, you can't afford that house. How about a more modest
one." The result the nice banker would miss out on the business. The borrower
going with the one that made the bigger home attainable.

~~~
001sky
_To give just one example, bankers gave housing loans even to people who
couldn 't afford them. Then they foreclosed on those homes. A "nice" banker
would have said "Sorry, you can't afford that house._

The counter point to this is that it was (political) public policy that
spurred the bankers to lend to 'sub-prime- credits. The policy that led to the
housing bubble was a pernicious trade, basically politicians bribing the
bankers (for votes) with allures of money, and bribing the lower-middle
classes (for votes) with allures of new credit. In the political sense, it was
a bout power and social position, not money (although they are undoubtedly
interlinked). This special interest legacy was then followed by similar moves
(same motives) in to promote the lending to students (promises of easy credit)
and promote the expansion of Academia (promises of larger budgets), again for
political gain. Similarly, the repeal of Glass-stegall (under the Deomocrats
with Clinton) and the foistering of the Universal banking model on Congress
(through both its own actions and the WTO treaty), in another nod to secure
the support of the Banks (with promises of greater CEO pay) and the lower
middle classes (continued expansion of easy credit).

------
7952
Ethics (good or bad) are not enough alone to make a particular action viable.
Usually you need a community of people who are prepared to believe that a
particular action is "good". At that point social pressure is enough to push
people down a path regardless of the actual benefits or costs. This can be
hugely beneficial (charitable donation) or very very bad. I don't think you
can get the good without the bad. A lot of good human behavior would be lost
of people only acted on logic.

------
lifeisstillgood
I reprint a letter I just received (inscribed on human skin) for your
edification:

Dear Humans

I hereby reclaim the word "evil". It seems to have worked for "queer" by those
San Francisco guys, so I am trying it for evil.

As The Lord of Lies I have put in plenty of effort over the centuries,
encouraging wars, rape and torture. it takes quite a lot of effort to persuade
someone to hang a pregnant woman extra high and then to slice open her belly
to let the foetus dangle too - but I think you will agree that that's pretty
evil. The march of technology has helped (guns guns guns!) but real evil still
takes the personal touch.

so imagine my horror when people call scummy business practises "evil". I mean
ohhh that guy is aggregating my click throughs to sell more toasters. Where is
the soul-destroying fear in that? I mean I used to call retargeting what
happened when you make a mother choose which child to have shot. now it's
_marketing_

No thank you. you keep your evil empire and your "don't be evil" slogans. I
will summon up the deepest devils from the pit and head to Syria, where I can
show you all what words like evil really mean. Pleasant dreams.

yours

Belezebub

------
debacle
Desperation in the common man to keep himself and his children afloat creates
opportunities for the wicked man because a desperate man cannot afford to have
social vigilance.

------
unimpressive
'evil' follows the incentive structures wherever they lead, and profits a
great deal from it. That would be my best guess.

------
terrykohla
If you look at the economy from a global point of view, you can see the money
is constantly flowing between good an evil. It's the ying and the yang. You
can choose to see the good or the evil but they're both there always seeking
an unreachable equilibrium, like the waves in the ocean.

Some people out there are doing "evil" right now keep you safe warm and cozy.

------
factorialboy
Is making money success?

------
djanogo
Evil and good are relative, one can't exist or be defined without the other.
Universe destroys and creates at the same time, neither of them is good or
bad.

------
mattm
If you believe it, then so be it.

------
krapp
Because good is dumb.

------
_delirium
This guy Marx wrote a bit about it...

