

Windows 8 for tablet hands on  - mingyeow
http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/13/windows-8-for-tablets-hands-on-preview/

======
sriramk
As someone who worked for MSFT for so long, this bit really makes me happy -
mostly since no one would have given this much odds of happening.

"With the introduction of OS X Lion, Apple gave us a glimpse at what a post-PC
operating system might look like, and now Microsoft's gone and pushed that
idea to the limit. If Cupertino's latest was a tease, than Windows 8 is full
frontal. And we have to admit, we like what we see. "

~~~
sunchild
It's hard to relate to the excitement when the demo was chock-full of
usability failure. How many times did the presenters struggle to register
their gestures?

Someone will no doubt say "it's a developer release – we'll fix all that". My
response to that is "Apple would never let that see the outside of a top-
secret lab".

Also, am I the only person who thinks this is the polar opposite of "post-PC"?
Desktop, start menu, right-click, etc. Maybe "touch PC" is more apt?

~~~
jeffjose
The presenter struggles because on the one hand he has a camera and the other
he uses to swipe/touch.

I'm not suggesting the beta/dev preview version is without bugs, I believe
you're reading too much into this.

~~~
coyotej
I'd argue that's "presentation" failure. This is something that can be
practiced so as to keep the focus on the product and not on the sloppiness due
to lack of preparedness.

~~~
toddheasley
I'd argue that you can hand an iPad to your grandmother with severe arthritis
or your toddler for the first time and they wouldn't have nearly as much
trouble as the presenter in the video.

~~~
recoiledsnake
Why would you give your grandmother a prototype tablet that will never see a
production release?

~~~
tomkarlo
Why would you demo a prototype?

~~~
josephcooney
Gee, I don't know...maybe to give the millions of people who are interested in
it an idea of what it might be like.

------
saturdaysaint
It looks very streamlined and powerful - quite arguably more functional than
today's iPad - but it's problematic that I don't see anything that makes
anyones' life appreciably better. A Flipboard clone, mobile Internet, Twitter,
Photos - nothing revolutionary. Really, really good, but nothing to give an
iPad or Xoom owner buyer's remorse unless these are ridiculously cheap (I
don't see how they'll have any price advantage over Apple or Googlerolla).
Tablets will own this holiday season, which MS is missing out on, and remember
that Windows 8 tablets will ship in the shadow of the iPad 3. Which, in turn,
means that Android and iPad will remain the lead platform for large form
touchscreen apps for the medium term future.

So: nice, but this doesn't stop their disruption.

~~~
dangrossman
When the build conference keynote's over, watch the recording. I think the
killer feature will be having every device you pick up be tailored to you.
When you hand it to your wife, it's tailored to her... just by signing in with
a Windows Live ID instead of a local user/password. Your contacts, e-mail,
calendar, photos, files, apps, desktop, bookmarks, individual app settings --
it will all be there on whatever device you pick up, whether it's a tablet, a
phone, a desktop PC, your work PC. Windows 8 uses Microsoft's cloud to bust
through firewalls on every end to connect every device you touch.

~~~
joeguilmette
Kind of like iCloud?

~~~
encoderer
Exactly, except this time, it'll be on the devices that have 85% market share.

~~~
joeguilmette
[http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/08/20/forrester.sees...](http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/08/20/forrester.sees.14pc.of.us.wanting.ipads)
Estimated 14% of the US wants to buy an iPad

[http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/09/13/survey-shows-
unpreced...](http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/09/13/survey-shows-
unprecedented-demand-for-apples-iphone-5/) see exhibit 4 - 85% of the tablet
buyers intend to buy an iPad.

[http://mashable.com/2011/09/12/apple-set-to-break-record-
for...](http://mashable.com/2011/09/12/apple-set-to-break-record-for-mac-
sales-this-fall-report/)

the status quo may not stay the status quo for long... especially with people
slowly admitting that, at least for moms and grandmas, tablets may be much
more in line with their needs.

Paul Graham was even just on stage talking about how Microsoft likely doesn't
see how bad its going to get for them...

~~~
barista
PG stays in his wonderland where Microsoft is no longer relevant. He said that
a few years ago already. Microsoft still made billions of dollars selling
windows in those years.

Same is the case with the surveys above. Everybody wanted to buy an iphone
until android came along...

~~~
wanorris
The interesting thing is that consumer surveys _still_ show more people want
to buy iPhones. But they walk out of stores with considerably more Android
phones than iPhones.

------
RyanMcGreal
> the desktop that you've grown used to in Windows 7 is still present, albeit
> as an app

Interesting parallel with the introduction of Windows. Windows 3.1 still ran
entirely on top of DOS; but DOS was demoted in Windows 95 and replaced
entirely in Windows NT, from which point it has run as a VM on top of the OS.

~~~
Rusky
Add to that the fact that Hyper-V is part of Windows 8 - interesting
possibilities.

------
nextparadigms
According to TIMN it's running an Intel Core i5. Wow. Seriously? I realize
this is just a developer preview device, but if Windows 8 needs that kind of
power, then what about ARM tablets that are supposed to compete with iPad? How
will it run on them? And how much battery life will it have on those Intel-
powered tablets? These questions are all unanswered and Engadget didn't even
touch on any of them.

 _"All of the above sections should give you a solid look at what Windows 8 is
shaping up to be, but what about the hardware? While we got a look at the OS
running on a few laptops and all-in-ones during the press preview meeting,
we’ve spent most of the time testing the OS on the prototype tablet. Powered
by a 1.6GHz Core i5-2467M processor and a 64GB solid state drive, the system
is absolutely no slouch on performance — everything from scrolling in the
browser to the Start screen is extremely speedy and the system boots
incredibly quickly. However, fan noise is very noticeable, as is the heat
coming out of the top vent, and a fast boot doesn’t excuse the slow wake-up
times compared to ARM-based cellphones and tablets."_

[http://thisismynext.com/2011/09/13/windows-8-tablet-
photos-v...](http://thisismynext.com/2011/09/13/windows-8-tablet-photos-video-
preview/)

~~~
varunsrin
These are developer devices - meant for compiling code. Therefore, they are
high powered, chock full of every hardware feature that Win 8 will support, so
that devs can play around with them, compile code and use them as their
primary machine. This is a desktop replacement machine for development, not an
iPad replacement.

~~~
megablast
What? You are suggesting that people develop on the tablet? That is not how it
works for iOs, BB, Palm or Android,

~~~
tallanvor
Windows 8 isn't iOS, BB, Palm, or Android. What they're trying to show is that
Windows 8 can be the OS on your desktop, your laptop, and your tablet.
Microsoft has made it clear that they still consider tablets to be PCs, even
if the primary input methods are different.

------
nextparadigms
This explains why Engadget never said anything about the hardware it was
running on. They were _prohibited_ to say anything about it. I wonder why?

 _"Keep this in mind as you read: both the operating system and hardware are
developer preview builds. In fact, the [REDACTED]_ hardware (we're prohibited
from even revealing its manufacturer or specs) isn't even going to run Windows
8."*

[http://gizmodo.com/5839665/windows-8-slate-hands-on-its-
fant...](http://gizmodo.com/5839665/windows-8-slate-hands-on-its-fantastic-
but-dont-sell-your-ipad)

~~~
recoiledsnake
I don't know why you're making a big deal of this in multiple posts but the
specs were shown in a slide in BUILD, so it's not like a big secret or
conspiracy to hide the specs.

------
hasanove
Am I the only one who virtually never uses windows desktop? I am either in
particular app, or just click "start", type a few letters and run what I need.
My desktop is just a background when nothing is running. Windows 8 new desktop
might make it useful again.

~~~
Random_Person
I don't use a desktop on any OS for anything other than temp storage for
files. I use Chrome/Geany/terminal 90% of the time and I have quick launch
shortcuts for those in both Windows and Linux.

On my Android phone, however, I use the "desktop" exclusively to find what I
need. Maybe transitioning desktop UI's to something similar is a great move.

~~~
RexRollman
Exactly. When using Windows I have Firefox set to download to the desktop,
from which I file things into their target folders or the trash. Otherwise, my
desktop is icon free.

------
csomar
I have mixed feelings for developing for Windows 8. I got my hands a little on
Visual Studio, and it's hands-down the most powerful, stable and complete IDE
I ever used.

If Microsoft could have something similar for coding with JavaScript,and HTML;
along with tools for storage, database, revision control, testing, jquery...
integrated inside that IDE. Well, I just can't miss programming with it.

~~~
stoptothink
I was at a .NET user group meeting last week. Scott Hanselman showed off the
current development build; guess what, it has the same support for HTML, JS,
Jquery, and CSS editing that it has for MS languages.

~~~
csomar
Mind-blowing :) Anything online showing this?

~~~
lvillani
I _guess_ you can try it yourself (if you have a VM or a partition to spare).
Steven Sinofsky says they're going to make Windows 8 Developer Preview ISOs
(with and without development tools) available to everyone:

[http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/13/welcome-to-
win...](http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/13/welcome-to-
windows-8-the-developer-preview.aspx)

------
eykanal
So, it's not "Windows Tablet 8", or "Windows Mobile 8", just "Windows 8"? Does
this mean this is also going to be the desktop OS?

~~~
nextparadigms
Why isn't Engadget mentioning the chip it's running. That's very strange.
Because if it does run Intel's chip as rumored, then this is the version to
run on the desktop, but not the one to run on ARM, so it probably has lower
battery life.

~~~
derwildemomo
[http://thisismynext.com/2011/09/13/windows-8-tablet-
photos-v...](http://thisismynext.com/2011/09/13/windows-8-tablet-photos-video-
preview/) gruber linked to that one. chip is mentioned, it's a 1.6GHz Core
i5-2467M.

~~~
recoiledsnake
I see that Gruber's already piling on the snark about it having a fan etc.
What he misses is that there's choice, if you want a fanless ARM tablet,
Windows 8 will run on it, there were a lot of demos of it doing so. But if you
want a more powerful tablet with a Core i5 processor and don't mind the heat
and noise that much, then there that option too. Whereas if you want a more
powerful iPad, you're SOL.

~~~
joeguilmette
I mean, am I only one that sees a 'powerful' tablet as a drawback?

Size, weight and battery life are three of the most important features of my
iPad. Further, the non-fragmentation of the App Store is nice, a 1G iPad can
run pretty much everything a 2G iPad can.

Why would I want to buy in to an ecosystem where developers are worrying about
developing to the lowest common denominator? Would they consider optimizing
their App for the 10% of their market that bought the Core i5 tablet vs for
the ARM (in a total market size with 5 % of the tablet market)?

What benefit would you really see from a tablet with so much processing power?
A I going to sacrifice all of that battery life so I can render video faster?

Ok, but what if they just let the tablet run all the apps that work on the
desktop. Great. Now my overpowered tablet that has two hours of battery life
and has a fan in it is running apps that aren't even optimized for a tablet
form factor?

This does not bode well.

~~~
mikeash
I agree, the "powerful tablet" seems like a genre without a market. iPad style
tables are attractive because they are extremely small, light, and have
excellent battery life. Why would I buy a larger, heavier tablet with poor
battery life when I can buy a similar laptop instead?

The iPad is popular largely because it's something _completely different_ from
what's already there. A big tablet with an i5 and three hours of battery life
is pretty much the same as what already exists in the PC space.

~~~
seanx
The thing is that you will have a choice. I'll be able to get a 17" hex core,
dual HD power machine while my wife/kids can have a arm powered tablet. Both
machines will be able to run the same metro apps.

Personally, I like power tablets. I got an android instead of an iPad (I gave
away my iPad) because of the added functionality (usb in, hdni out). If I
could have a windows tablet instead, I'd be a very happy camper.

~~~
mikeash
I don't mean power tablets in terms of functionality, but rather in terms of
raw computing power. Your Android tablet has nice features but it's still an
efficient ARM processor which would be completely destroyed in any benchmark
by a decent laptop. The question is, would you buy a power-hungry hex core
tablet if one were available, rather than an ARM tablet or a powerful laptop?
More pertinently, would enough people buy one to make it a viable market?

------
kms002
What's really interesting to me is that Windows 8 seems almost entirely
focused on the _consumer_ market. What about those of us using our desktop PCs
every day to do real work?

I mean, do we really have to boot into that fancy-pants Metro UI every time we
want to actually get something done?

I'm totally fine with swiping this way and that when using a tablet PC (I love
my iPad), but when I sit down at a desktop PC, I want a mouse/keyboard driven
experience - period.

------
Pewpewarrows
Very excited to play with this hands-on tonight/tomorrow. My only concerns are
as follows:

\- Multiple monitors. How does this play nicely with them, and how I
traditionally lay-out several open applications across them? Can one monitor
be Metro UI and the other be the classical desktop? Or, can I have a full-
screen app on one monitor that doesn't brick the other screen? (Looking at
you, OSX Lion)

\- App windows that might not necessarily fit into the tile or fullscreen
approach. The prime example of this is my chat/social desktop or space. I
typically have a contacts list, tabbed chat window, IRC, and twitter feed all
on the same monitor arranged around one another. I know they demoed a way to
do split-screen apps while still in the Metro UI, but it seemed to be too
simple for real use.

\- How jarring is the switch between Metro and the retro desktop? If I'm going
along fine at 90% productivity living completely in the Metro UI on my
monitors, and then all of a sudden need to open a small window from a legacy
app, is that going to completely monopolize my workspace? If half of my apps
work in Metro, and the other half don't while programming, am I going to have
to keep switching between the UIs every 30 seconds as I'm working? That would
be a pretty big deal-breaker.

~~~
pcj
For multiple monitors - yes, you can have 1 monitor dedicated for Metro and
the other for classic Desktop and I believe you can flip between them as well.
And believe the keynote demo also addressed your 2nd question on that.

~~~
joenathan
Yeah, if you are familiar with Display Fusion, all that functionality is now
build into windows.

------
r00fus
Ok, Metro looks nice. I just hope they do similar to Apple and provide
something between "mouse" and "touch"... like all the trackpad gestures Apple
uses to make their desktop OS more touch-oriented while avoiding the dreaded
gorilla arm
[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Touchscreen#G...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Touchscreen#Gorilla_arm)

------
RexRollman
I think Windows 8 will be interesting. The one thing I don't like about
Windows, since Vista, is the splintering of the client version (basic, home,
professional, ultimate). I think MS should just make one client version for a
flat $150.00.

~~~
ben_straub
Microsoft isn't Apple. Their biggest customers aren't end users; they're large
corporations with thousands of users, and PC manufacturers. Tempting end users
is just marketing to them.

[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckie...](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckies.html)

~~~
RexRollman
You're probably right, but having so many versions of Windows is asinine, in
my opinion.

~~~
barista
I actually prefer taht. It gives me a choice to pay for whatever I need to use
as opposed to Apple where no matter whether I need it or not, I have to pay.

~~~
RexRollman
Yeah, but the differences are artificial in nature. Everything is installed,
regardless of which version you use, so that anytime upgrade will work.

------
thirdsun
The touch-enabled part of this preview and the fact that Microsoft stays close
to their excellent Metro UI looks very promising. I also see the point of
keeping the traditional windows elements like the desktop or explorer. However
I really don't get why the explorer has to stay that traditional. I'm sure
there would have been a way to make it usable with mouse AND touch input -
maybe by replacing all those ribbon elements by only the most commonly used
actions as icon only, preferably in Metro style.

Right now this feels like an unnecessary break from the promising and fresh
approach that is Metro on a desktop (or tablet).

------
danssig
This is largely an entrepreneurial site, so tell me: if you tried a concept
and it failed, then you repackaged and tried again with another failure (redo
this step multiple times as necessary), then saw someone else alter your
concept and have enormous success would you:

a) Learn from them and make a product that competes in that space or

b) Try your same multiple-times-failed strategy again?

If you're MS it seems option b is the right answer. PC in tablet form, take...
what, 5?

~~~
MatthewPhillips
In what why is this the same strategy? Windows 8 has a completely new API.
Win32, which has been around since the early 90s is gone. The new API doesn't
even have the concept of overlapping windows. WinRT talks directly to the
kernel. In that respect, Windows 8 is as much of a "new thing" as the iPad or
Android or any other tablet OS.

The only thing they've chosen to do differently is in marketing. The other
tablet OSes are marketed as completely new things and Microsoft is marketing
it as an iteration on an old thing.

~~~
danssig
Is it going to be the same thing they sell on the desktop? That's the goal,
right? So it's PC in tablet form. Just like every time they've tried it
before.

~~~
MatthewPhillips
It's a tablet in desktop form. Everything but the kernel was rewritten with
the tablet as the default use case.

------
Sindrome
A somebody who does .Net development as a day job. This is very exciting!

------
J3L2404
Will I have to do a clean install of the OS?

~~~
RexRollman
In my opinion, one should never do a in place upgrade of a OS across major
versions. Back up your files first and then do a proper install.

~~~
rbanffy
Debian (and Ubuntu) users have been doing it for many, many years without
severe problems.

------
ChuckMcM
This looks pretty nice, its good to see M$ being able to step so far out of
their comfort zone vis-a-vis competition between the 'core' windows franchise
and the 'other' products. My belief was that the thing that really killed the
'Tablet' version of windows was that they didn't have an 'all in' mode where
there was no legacy PC stuff there.

~~~
cooldeal
'M$' ? Really? Didn't expect to see that on HN. Thought people were more
mature here.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I agree, that the HN community would downvote folks who complement Microsoft
seems very immature indeed.

~~~
rbanffy
Criticizing Microsoft also gives a lot of downvotes with it.

