Ask HN: Where can I learn meditation and mindfulness without the bullshit? - xycodex
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david_b
Mindfulness in Plain English is good - there is some weird stuff in it
(something about levitation) but it is a very minor part and the rest is
solid. It's free: <http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html>

If you need more guidance get the MBSR/MBCT (I did the latter) book + audio
tracks from Jon Kabat-Zinn - it takes all the buddhism out and teaches just
meditation and mindfulness (and little bits of yoga).

MiPE was the first book I got, but the guidance of 'sit down, listen and
follow this program' really helped me get on my butt.

Edit: I can't find the levitation part in MiPE - but there was _something_

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swanson
I've been using <http://www.getsomeheadspace.com/> for the past 2 weeks and
it's pretty good.

No religion or chi/chakra bullshit. Good mobile app. Free to try the "Take 10"
program.

I like it because it's <10 minutes from sign up to sitting and doing the first
meditation, instead of having to go off and read a book first.

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pseudorocker
I had the same attitude you do (not a criticism, just a fact) and I enrolled
in a mindfulness course in grad school. I, too, an not very spiritual, and I
tried my best, to no avail. I think some personalities types are more prone to
embrace it than others. That said, yoga DOES work for me, because I approach
it as a physical activity, with calmness involved. I'd recommend trying yoga.
Take classes with a few different instructors, to find one that "works" for
you.

~~~
xycodex
You had? Has your attitude changed? What changed it?

~~~
pseudorocker
Sorry for the late followup. I had and still have. Sloppy wording on my part
:)

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jmole
Learn from yourself.

Seriously, for a while, the more I read the more dogmatic I would be about
meditation.

I would avoid Eckhart Tolle at all costs, he is imprecise with language and
his forced separation of "observer mind" from "ego mind" clashes greatly with
my materialistic point of view. He has some nice ideas, but frankly this
forced separation is extremely misleading.

I could write a whole blog post on the problems I have with it, but it boils
down to one fact: our mind, ego, thoughts and feelings are inseparable from
each other. There is one consciousness, and my goal in meditation is to focus
my consciousness on my consciousness. To watch the machine at work, so to
speak. It doesn't involve shifting to a higher form of consciousness, it just
involves becoming conscious of your own thoughts, feelings, and senses, and
realizing that these are all components in the machinery of your mind.

Once you establish this, once you can focus on the sensation of sensing, the
automatic nature of thought, or the inevitability of feelings, you become
enlightened without really trying to. You realize that judgement is
unnecessary, that the machinery is working exactly as it should be, and the
"trouble spots" in the machine are not problems with the mechanism itself, but
instead are an overreaction by the conscious mind to a perceived threat.

By observing the machinery without judging, you help eliminate harmful
negative feedback loops that only worsen problems. The common phrase in
neurobiology is that "neurons that fire together, wire together". Instead of
focusing on a particular negative sensation or thought, and the pain it causes
you, you can simply observe the negative sensation or thought as it is: the
machine doing exactly what it evolved to do. In non-meditative thought, we see
pain, recognize it as a harm to us, and the feedback loop grows as all the
neurons associating this negative impulse with pain begin to fire.

The goal in meditation is to simply observe. Not to follow the path of problem
solving. There is no problem. Your mind is working exactly as it evolved to.
Simply watch it work, do not judge it, and you will find that the big problems
you think you have are essentially trivial.

All that said, I would highly recommend Deepak Chopra's Seven Laws of
Spiritual Success. [http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Spiritual-Laws-Success-
Fulfillme...](http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Spiritual-Laws-Success-
Fulfillment/dp/1878424114)

~~~
crazydiamond
A very good post but I don't understand your dissing of ET. Where does he
separate the mind into "observer mind". He certainly does say "observer" or
maybe even observing consciousness.

| I could write a whole blog post on the problems I have with it, but it boils
down to one fact: our mind, ego, thoughts and feelings are inseparable from
each other.

Who said they were separate ?

I agree that sometimes Tolle does use terms which may not be real such as
"pain body" ( I also did not like it when I first read Power of Now) but I
understand that he creates these terms more to help understand something.

| he is imprecise with language

I don't think you can be precise in this particular case. When you speak of
something which is actually the subject, and not an object, where there is no
subject-object separation, then it is very difficult to be precise.

Let me give you an example from your own post:

| There is one consciousness, and my goal in meditation is to focus my
consciousness on my consciousness

Who is this "my" who has a goal in meditation and even more importantly when
you say "my consciousness" then whose consciousness is this you speak of. Are
you some other entity who has a consciousness ?

Let me clarify that I am _not_ a Tolle follower, I follow self-enquiry, but I
have found Tolle's PON to be a great book that I been able to appreciate
_after_ having reached some measure of "presence".

~~~
jmole
I don't have the book at hand now, or I could make a better example here, but
I'll give it a shot.

The trouble I had was with dissociating my thinking mind, or Tolle's ego, with
that of the observer mind; in reality, and materially, they are one and the
same. As I remember, he draws a sharp demarcation between the two types of
mind, labeling the egoic mind as a sort of curse on humanity.

To me, his egoic mind parses as the rational mind, or the thinking mind.
Therefore, his dismissal of this aspect of our consciousness leaves much to be
desired in my case.

I mean how am I supposed to read and understand his book, written in English,
without the aid of a rational mind?

Perhaps it's because I didn't make it past the first few pages that I didn't
understand his message, but I found Chopra much more accessible in this
regard.

As to your question here: "Who is this "my" who has a goal in meditation"

The my is me; all of me. Not just the observing me, not just the thinking me,
or the feeling me, but the inseparable combination of the three.

~~~
dgreensp
Tolle's insight is that the _rationalizing_ mind, which is basically a box
that generates logical, verbal explanations (for internal and external
phenomena that are not inherently logical), should not be allowed to direct
our _attention_. This belief is shared by many mindfulness practitioners: that
there is an epidemic of overusing the rational mind to distract ourselves from
what we are thinking and feeling. We have a thought, then a feeling, and then
what Tolle calls "the mind" kicks in primarily to distract us and make us feel
better, not to extract new insight (though it does that too sometimes).

The word "thought" here really means something we intuit, by our main mode of
non-rational thinking, which typically strives for accuracy based on past
experiences. Rational thinking, on the other hand, can take us very far from
reality, which is what makes it so dangerous, especially since it can be
fueled by motivations like obscuring reality! Awareness is yet a third
function.

If you are "observing the machinery" then you are successfully disidentified
with it, which is a big part of Power of Now -- to realize the "mind" is not
us, meaning we don't control it and we don't have to agree with it or act on
it. What we can control (ultimately) is our attention.

~~~
dgreensp
This distinction btw means that constantly trying to explain or internally
verbalize the workings of one's mind is not mindfulness, which is more about
becoming aware of what surfaces and then letting it go. I've read articles
that imply to me that the author still fears letting go of the rational
analysis and just being, if only for a moment, which is the real trick and
what will summon the most nefarious internal resistance.

Heady stuff. Still working on it for myself.

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espeed
Read the book "Mindfulness in Plain English," by Bhante Gunaratana

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crazydiamond
I think first of all I'd like to know why you want to learn meditation, are
you expecting something. Although, I myself don't believe in getting lost in
books and concepts, however at some stage you may find it motivating or
helpful to read a bit of what others who have been down this path have to say.

I've been in this for a decade and here are some helpful works that are easily
available online and free. YMMV. In no particular order, works of Nisargadatta
Maharaj (esp I am That), Michael Langford (awareness watching awareness),
books on mindfulness (already linked below). A very approachable book has been
Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle.

I follow self-enquiry (Sri Ramana Maharshi) but sadly that is 'lost in
translation' and wrongly/poorly explained everywhere. I find Langford's online
book to be very motivating although my technique varies from his.

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xycodex
I'm looking for resources and training that doesn't involve any religion or
new-agey bullshit. There seems to be quite a bit of research indicating some
meditation is good, but it's hard to find anything that doesn't have some
religious/unscientific BS component.

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DanBC
You could try searching the UK NHS (national health service) websites. There's
probably some PCAT[1] (primary care assessment & treatment) team that has
stuff for download.

There's also 'Books on Prescription' which should have lists of reasonable
books.

Unfortunately, this isn't going to avoid all the bullshit, but will steer you
past most of it.

EDIT: (<http://www.backontrack.nhs.uk/mindfulness-meditation/>)

And also the self help section.

[1] short term treatment, 8 weeks, for people with mild mental health
problems.

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moocow01
Take an MBSR class (mindfulness based stress reduction). There usually is at
least one certified active practitioner in most major cities. The class lasts
about 6-8 weeks and is in my opinion much more effective than anything you can
do by reading books or listening to tapes. I found the 10% of the class was
learning the techniques and 90% was sharing the struggles and challenges of
applying the techniques with others.

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orionblastar
Start here: <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/>

You still have to learn Buddhist terms, but they cut out the political BS and
other crap.

Basically suffering is caused by desire and attachment, remove the desire and
attachment and you remove suffering. Replace the suffering with compassion and
empathy for all living things and you are on your way to mindfulness and
Nirvana.

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mbubb
Zencast podcast. Find lectures bu Gils Fronsdahl. He is a Buddhist
practitioner and I have found him to be an excellent resource.

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orangethirty
When you say without the BS, what do you mean? Do you folow a certain religion
(or not)? Explain, please.

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argonz
"Mindfulness in Plain English" is very concise but still touch tangentially
interesting "why" questions.

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xycodex
Are there any organizations where one can connect with people who do this?

~~~
xycodex
ie, meditation classes, etc I find that I don't learn that much by reading
books.

~~~
david_b
That depends on where you are: there are many retreat centers worldwide:
[http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-
wiki/-/wiki...](http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-
wiki/-/wiki/Main/FrontPage?p_r_p_185834411_title=FrontPage#section-FrontPage-
RetreatCentersAndPlacesToPractice)

[http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/messa...](http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/category/11915)

S.N. Goenka runs a lot of retreat centers worldwide - but those seem to be a
bit of a mixed bag when it comes to quality of instruction and treatment of
participants. They partially run on donations and I've read at least one
account where people had to listen to talk of 'you would feel so much better
if you donate money' (not exactly that but close to it).

There actually isn't that much to learn about meditation - the hardest part is
actually staying with it.

