

Don’t Waste Your Twenties - dragondilesh
http://artofmanliness.com/2013/02/04/dont-waste-your-twenties-part-1-taking-advantage-of-the-unique-powers-of-the-twentysomething-brain/
Part 2: http://artofmanliness.com/2013/02/05/dont-waste-your-20s-train-your-brain-for-lasting-success/
======
acabal
I hate these kinds of articles because they can put tremendous pressure on
people. There isn't a "right" way to spend your twenties (or thirties, or any
decade) and comparing yourself to Einstein and Newton and Kepler like this
article does is worse than counterproductive. The only way you should concern
yourself with living is to try to be happy every day, whatever that means to
you. Listening to pundits showing you charts and graphs and science about how
you're wasting your life will just invite stress and pressure.

~~~
moe
Especially idiotic are the random references to successful people.

As if not "wasting" your 20s (whatever that means) would somehow improve your
odds to become the next Einstein.

If you happen to be the next Einstein then I firmly doubt reading baseless
self-improvement drivel makes a difference towards realizing or not realizing
your potential.

~~~
dualogy
> If you happen to be the next Einstein then I firmly doubt reading baseless
> self-improvement drivel makes a difference towards realizing or not
> realizing your potential.

Thanks. My quote of the day!

------
jasonkester
Here are three of my decades thus far. I'm trying to decide which of these was
"wasted" according to the article:

Phase I, 21-30: "Work hard/Play hard" mode, socking away retirement savings,
building skills & reputation to prepare for Phase II, nights & weekends packed
with climbing trips and going out. "I think I can get a full night sleep the
weekend after next".

Phase II, 30-40: "Semi-retired nomad" mode, working short (~3mo) contracts
about once a year, logging several laps around the world & entire seasons
spent chilling at some of the best climbing areas anywhere. Building SaaS
products from the beach to finance Phase III.

Phase III, 40-: "Comfortable family guy" mode, working remotely from a little
village in the countryside south of Paris with some of the best bouldering in
the world, playing with the kid in the garden, and doing "vacations" involving
actually booking hotel rooms and not forcing myself to live on $15/day when on
the road.

I think according to the article, I was supposed to swap out the "work for
employers" part of Phase I for the "build products" part of Phase II. But I'm
not sure where Phase II would have come in, had I done that. It's tough.

I guess the best a fella can do is pay attention to one's life and try to at
least have a plan. Had you asked 25 year old Jason what his plan was, he would
have described something remarkably similar to the above. Except that Phase
III might have involved a 19 year old Swedish girl and happened in his
sixties:)

~~~
decasteve
Similar trajectory here. Probably a number of HN'ers in the same boat?

Phase I, 18-29. "Work, train (athletics), travel, and save money." Started
working at 18. Never settled down anywhere, after 21 I started saving money.
Also building contacts that will carry me into phase II.

Phase II, 29-34 (now). "Husband/father/freelancer/student/athlete/coach".
Pursuing studies in Math (my passion) getting ready for Grad school (2014).
Funding it with Phase I and working part-time from home. Lots of family time
and staying in good shape. Keeping a consistent routine (something I never did
in Phase I).

Phase III. Probably starts around 35 next year: Math PhD? Post-doc, etc.
Nothing set in stone. But without Phase I in my 20s the way it was I wouldn't
be in the position to do this now.

I think I was supposed to be a student first, then start a career. Not the
other way around.

~~~
return0
Clearly the lives you describe are interesting. And probably happy. Many
middle-class-and-upper people strive for such a life. But these lives also
seem quite photoshopped, like a packaged tour version of life. Not judging or
anything, but i'm wondering if, given its utmost uniqueness, a life should be
lived on a predefined plan.

~~~
prawks
You need plans (however rough) to achieve goals.

It's also quite unlikely that they summarized the entirety of their lives in
~6 sentences. Nuances and changes of plans aren't mentioned. These summaries
are in retrospect. The plans are plans, and subject to change.

I think it just so happens that when you look at comfortable people's lives
from 30,000 feet, they look similar. "I was young, did a bunch of fun stuff,
thought about the future", then "I started a family, or got less risky", then
"I know what I want to achieve next".

------
VLM
My advice to the kids or the weak willed reading either the article or the HN
commentary is to study the wikipedia article for "survivorship bias" and think
really hard about how if you're only "beginning things" in your 20s and
"building things" in 30s etc then you're doing it horribly wrong. For a small
fraction of people who are very lucky this is almost useful, but everyone else
needs be able to handle what could negatively be described as rebuilding after
disaster or positively described as lifelong learning. You shouldn't stop
"beginning" until you're dead, not on your 30th birthday or whatever. Never
stop "beginning".

Always be resilient... Ask any "old" person, eventually, you're gonna crash
and burn even if you think you're conservative. What really separates the
winners from the losers is how you react when at the bottom, not when peaking
or at the top...

Another thing worth considering is living in the world, not in a plan,
although goals are OK. A plan is nice, but as an engineer I assure you that
physical reality follows its laws, not your plan, and you'd best get used to
living in the world instead of in a plan. Not that planning as an abstract
concept is always a waste of time, it just usually is. Goals are good and are
not detailed plans. A goal is something like meet the ideal spouse and live
happily with them. A plan has ridiculous metrics and set pointless scheduled
firm dates, like meet spouse at exactly age 26, married by 28, squirt out
precisely 2.1 kids by 32, etc. Plans are doomed to failure and unhappiness,
goals on the other hand are OK.

Finally a really good piece of advice is broaden your horizons and question
your definitions, especially if the definitions don't benefit you and come
from people making a profit off you. "Kids" think the definition of
socializing is staying up all night drinking until you vomit and make a fool
of yourself then miss work the next day. Therefore the 20s are when you should
socialize. Uh, no, you need a new definition of socialize and you should be
doin it all your life not just 20s or until your liver gives out. I was
ignorant too, and I survived and improved since, so don't feel bad if you have
to do the same.

~~~
pm90
This sounds like really good advice, thanks for sharing!

------
Nursie

      At Age 20: I was partying like a madman, it was awesome
      At Age 21: Graduated, seeing a great girl, making a little money, enjoying city life
      At Age 22: Still having fun, meeting and sleeping with new people
      At Age 23: Yup. Same.
      At Age 24: New girl, same awesome life
      At Age 25: Lots of international travel this year. More great friends made Fun!
      At Age 26: More of the same.
    

And I'm still doing financially fine (though have not ever really settled into
home ownership, I'm too fond of packing everything in and moving round the
world), and am building a business based on the technical experience I gained
in that decade. Also now in my mid 30s I still like learning and I still enjoy
risk-taking.

You'll never make me regret not taking life seriously, and channelling my
awesome early-20s brain-power into socialising and enjoying myself.

tl;dr - sex, drugs and rock'n'roll

~~~
henryaj
Awesome. It sounds like you had a great decade!

Do you have any pointers for us early-twentysomethings? I've just turned 23
and while I'm having fun in the city, enjoying the world of work, it doesn't
sound quite as interesting as the same part of your life. How did you meet new
friends, expand your social network, sleep with new people, and enjoy the
metropolis? I've found the transition from university to work has made all of
the above more difficult.

~~~
Nursie
I guess in my case I guess had a hook, I was part of a scene (the goth scene,
in case you want a laugh, though in the UK it isn't/wasn't synonymous with
angry teenagers or Marilyn Manson).

Once you're on the inside of something like that then the barriers to meeting
new people within the scene are significantly reduced, though obviously you're
perceived to have put up barriers to everyone else to a greater or lesser
extent. Also it turns out a lot of goths are software engineers...

I guess what I'm saying is if you have a thing (be it goth, learning the
ukelele, mountain climbing, whatever) don't be afraid to embrace the thing,
and don't let the day job take over your whole life :)

\--edit-- Also, just do stuff. Take a risk, meet people off the internet. I
organised a couple of 'fark' meetups in London back then, and even have a
couple of pretty good IRL friends met through some much shadier sites.

~~~
henryaj
'Just do stuff' (or, more specifically, 'take more risks') is my one
resolution for 2013. I'm meeting new people through online meetups,
CouchSurfing, Twitter, and just randomly chatting up strangers (a skill I'm
trying to actively develop). It's a fun ride.

Thanks for the advice! If you're ever in London, let me buy you a beer.

~~~
nQuo
I'm in London too. 24, with a similar resolution to get out of my comfort
zone. Let's grab a pint or two.

iMessage or email: nquo at iCloud dot com

------
philwelch
I'm a little disappointed in the middlebrow dismissals here. Let's set aside
the brain stuff and do some simple math: you're going to live anywhere from
three to seven decades after you reach 30, but only one decade of adulthood
before. Therefore your have the opportunity to build a foundation for your
life's happiness in your 20's. Economists have this notion called the
"discount rate", which is the degree to which one favors instant gratification
over greater long-term returns. The younger you are, the more biased towards
long-term returns you should be, largely because you have a longer long-term
to enjoy them in. This principle is just as true in life as in financial
investing. Likewise, as in financial investing, it's prudent to take more
risks while younger since you have more time to recover from them.

Of course, we say such things to comfort ourselves now. Advice is wasted on
youth.

~~~
Nursie
This neglects that for many people your 20s are also when you're at your most
active, most sociable and all-round most alive.

To me an over-emphasis on 'investing' during this period is the real waste.

~~~
philwelch
Activity and sociability are exactly the resources you use to create your
investments, by achieving real accomplishments, building your skills, and
meeting the people who will become your lifelong friends. Hell, you should
even have a lot of fun--having good memories and stories to tell are an
investment, too. But bias yourself towards things you'll want to have done
later, not just things you want to do now.

------
jacques_chester
I lost my 20s to depression and to the aftermath of depression. I used to be
grumpy about it.

However there is a thin thread of causality that leads me to the life I lead
now. It's pretty good and I think it will get better.

Also: The Art of Manliness is played-out schtick.

Manhood doesn't come from reading about manhood on a website whose incentives
are skewed to making you read more.

~~~
saryant
> However there is a thin thread of causality that leads me to the life I lead
> now.

While I'm still early in my 20s this is what I've realized as well. I spent
much of 2011 battling depression. That year sucked and I used to wish I hadn't
had to go through it and that the events which led to it hadn't happened.

Then I realized if that wish came true, I wouldn't have the friends I have
today, I wouldn't have had the experiences I had in 2012 and I wouldn't be
where I am right now. There's no way to see that line of causality until it's
said and done.

Life is strange that way.

~~~
cynest
My experience has been somewhat different. 2012 was a wholly miserable year
for me and I honestly feel that it was rather pointless ordeal exacerbated by
toxic relationships I lack the means to escape.

------
ErrantX
Sometimes I worry that I'm missing my twenties. I'm 26 now and occasionally
wish I had done more.

But if you look back there are lots of things you've done. They might not be
as crazy, exciting or important as some people manage. But the truth is your
probably ahead of the curve; very few people achieve truly extraordinary
things.

I've travelled, met amazing people, started my own business, fallen in and out
of love. I could have maybe done more of all these things, but it's hard to
regret them.

Don't waste any decades of your life. But also, don't think about your life
experience so far as wasted. That's silly.

------
Paul_S
I often think that if I could talk to myself when I was younger I would change
a lot of things in my life but the truth is my younger self would not listen.
By definition I made the decisions that I thought at the time were right.

If you don't have regrets you must be one of those alpha males I hear so much
about.

------
skrebbel
Articles like this remind me of "Spreadsheet CEOs": people who focus only on
what is visible in the numbers, and not on all the little underlying things
that make all that possible. Save costs by removing trash bins from every
desk. Make money by focusing on the best-selling products or services only.

At the age the people mentioned in this article were busy starting businesses
and winning nobel prizes, I was busy discovering my personality, improving my
soft skills, getting over myself little ridiculous situations that had always
made me nervous, and developing a small set of real, true friendships. Is the
result measurable on my CV? Surely not. Did I spend a significant amount of
time in bars or hung over? Definitely. Were my twenties wasted? I can't see
how.

------
AutoCorrect
There is no such thing as 'wasting your life'. You live every second of your
life, how you live it is up to you, and to a smaller (but not always small)
extent up to the circumstances around you. Every decision you make (or don't)
pushes you in a direction, sort of a life vector. You can change the direction
and the size of the vector, but it's yours, no matter what, and it's not a
waste. Even if you live your entire life and leave not a ripple behind you,
your life still has worth. Don't read articles like this and let them make you
feel bad about what you think you haven't accomplished.

------
johncoltrane
I've spent my twenties doing graffiti on trains all around Europe and the
world. It didn't make me rich or more employable but boy, what a ride!

------
kevin_morrill
For those interested, there are two great works that go into much more detail
on not just 20s, but the other decades of peoples' lives.

The Seasons of a Man's Life (<http://refer.ly/a4hO>) is the work of a few
researchers. They were frustrated that most work in psychology studied
childhood development in depth, but little research was done into development
during your 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. The research is focused entirely on guys
(sorry ladies). Not surprisingly, he was able to find several phases most men
go through. Several friends have found the book really helpful when they're
reflecting on life.

The Up Series (<http://refer.ly/a4hN>) is a set of films, each shot every 7
years that chronicles the real lives of a dozen people from England. While it
has a bit of reality TV "drama", most all of it is the real unvarnished
changes that people go through as they age, including their regrets and
accomplishments. It's a remarkable watch, given that you get to see people age
from 7 to 56. Just as an example, I feel it prepared me ahead of time to deal
with the death of my mother, and savor the time that I have with my dad who's
still alive. Ultimately, we all have to face up to a lot of the same things,
and it's comforting to have a bit of a map.

------
sergiosgc
The master advice for being happy at any age isn't even in the article:
Surround yourself with interesting people; build meaningful relations.

Every study, every social comparison comes up with this factor as prime
factor. It's not money, it's not social recognition, it's not fame. Your
happiness is mainly influenced by how much you are tightly integrated into a
happy group.

~~~
um304
+1 I can relate to it.

------
eksith
Can someone properly define "wasting" please? Accomplishments, last I checked,
don't have a youth fetish.

This one was well written, but these types of articles miss the point. You
can't make sweeping generalizations based on brain chemistry alone. Experience
and background plays a large part of who we are, not just genes.

You succeed when you succeed, if it happens. Sometimes, maturity is essential
for the process, but age is often not a factor on the Internet. I remember an
article posted here (can't recall at the moment, maybe my 30yo brain failed
me, HA!) where a designer discussed how people disregarded his accomplishments
and talent because he was comparatively young. Well, after going exclusively
online, that's not a factor. Same applies for older people as well.

Curiosity, passion, innovation, all the things that make the 20yo brain so
wonderful, according to the article, can be sustained well into later years as
well.

~~~
jl6
All quite true but I'll drop in here that the Fields medal is only available
up to age 40.

------
pkorzeniewski
In my opinion it's all about the _golden mean_. Party too much and you will
regret not achieving anything in life, working a shitty job you hate for
mediocre money. Work too much and you will regret not having fun being young,
realising it's too late now and even the money you have won't make for the
lost time.

~~~
blablabla123
Yeah I agree. 20s are the time in which you basically bootstrap your life.

Anyway, did the author ever think for a minute that Kepler or Newton were
probably pretty "special" people?

I don't believe any article about the human brain except it is from a
decorated Neuroscientist... ;)

~~~
arethuza
"Special" hardly does Newton justice - not many top scientists have made a
succesful jump to undercover secret service agent fighting organised crime...

~~~
blablabla123
What I mean is, when you look at the list of people in the article: pick one
of them and odds are high that this person is just completely over the top,
super smart, IQ over xxx and whatever. When you think you are super smart, you
are probably not so smart in comparison to this person.

------
polskibus
This article is self-contradictory. On one hand a person should follow their
dreams, take risk, blahblahblah and on the other worry not to waste that time!
To take risk I need to be able to forget about potential waste and
opportunities lost.

------
Kaivo
I didn't read the article other than the comparison with all those great
minds. I don't feel that concerned when it comes to comparing myself to such
persons. I mean, should I have been the next Einstein, I would have know
before reaching my 20s. Nevertheless, I'm a very curious person, thanks to my
dad. I want to understand and know many many things (not everything), and for
the last year I've spent most of my time learning, reading interesting
articles here and there, following classes, reading the f __ __*g manual.
Eight months ago, I never had touched Linux. Last week, I installed Arch
Linux. I didn't know how to program a year ago. Now I touched SQL, VBA, C/C++,
Python, Haskell. I'm no expert in any of these language, but I do my best to
learn a handful of languages before sticking to one/a few. I try to learn
something new every day, and I don't even feel like I'm trying. All the
information just flows at me. For each new thing I understand, there are 1000s
more questions that appear. I don't feel like I'm wasting my 20s even though
I'm not building the next Microsoft. I'm constantly learning and I couldn't be
happier about it. I feel like I'm doing a ton of investment for my future, and
I'll never stop learning.

------
timinman
I'm nearly done with my thirties - a time when many of us start to feel
uncomfortable about how much time we have left to make our mark.

I didn't make a ton of money or change the whole world in my twenties, but I
did marry a great woman early (at 20), and begin to raise 3 great kids. I feel
good about those decisions, but won't settle, I still feel that I've more
growing up to do and greater days are ahead.

------
EzGraphs
What you do with your twenties really isn't the significant insight of the
article. Though there is some merit in the conclusion:

 _The twenties are for launching, while the thirties are for building what you
launched._

The main point is to recognize the state of your brain at a given age and its
resulting effects:

 _The trick is simply to take advantage of each power in the season it is
given_

That is applicable regardless of chronological age.

------
nicholas73
I would consider my 20's to be wasted, but yet I'm definitely not the same man
I was at 20. So was it really wasted? I have little to show on paper or as
paper, but I learned much about myself and others so that I could make better
decisions later in life. Basically, I made a ton of mistakes and had my mid-
life crisis early. I hope it will be worth the investment.

I also improved my social skills, had a long term relationship, taught myself
programming, learn how to have investment failures, quit my job, tried a few
jobs, understood my family dynamics, faced my emotional issues from childhood,
developed an athletic body, earned a black belt, learned proper nutrition,
etc.

So were my 20's wasted? Only because I wish I was 20 again and had more fun.
But I'm told 30 is pretty good too.

Edit: I also completed an MS degree during this time, but funny, I completely
forgot to include it. It wasn't intentional. The truth is that I don't find it
as valuable nor much of an accomplishment as it was just falling into a path
not chosen consciously.

------
ycuser
No matter what the age, you can still take control of your life. Also, time
wasted enjoyed is not wasted time. So what if your peers were successful in
their 20's and you spent your time enjoying what you wanted. Agreed, that with
age you are a different person in your physical and mental ability, you got to
make the most of your time here and and have no regrets.

------
BjoernKW
From a Meat Loaf song: "A wasted youth is better by far than a wise and
productive old age"

I've always found those lines to be quite insightful.

------
blowski
You shouldn't waste your life, no matter how old you are. But one person's
'wasting' is another person's 'enjoying', so articles like this don't really
answer any questions.

~~~
um304
Yep, everyone has their own reality. You cannot copy/paste one person's
solutions to another person's situations.

------
um304
I got bit depressed when I read the article, but was cheered up when I read
the comments here. You guys are awesome!!!

I think a better article could have been "Don't waste your day". Who has seen
tomorrow, and they are talking about planning a whole decade!

Keep your expectations low, work hard, give more than you take and be
grateful. If you are to become next Einstein, your destiny will find you by
itself. That's the best I can think for myself.

------
snake_plissken
god damn stop it with these articles! they are based on pointless and
handpicked quips, and frankly they just drop my brain chemical levels and
depress me until i go out to lunch for tasty burritos in 3 hours.

and the god damn brain formation things PLEASE neuroscience is at the most 10
years old we have no idea what the brain is doing and won't until we monitor
brains the way we do now for a generation.

------
kghose
Don't waste your twenty minutes reading this article. Go play with your
spouse/children/cat/dog/friends for twenty minutes instead and then read the
desiderata (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata>) for instructions on how
to live life at any age.

------
Matti
It would be interesting to have this contrasted with an article written about
the same age span 75-150 years ago.

~~~
arethuza
That's an interesting point, because in roughly that timescale an awful lot of
people had their passions and fearlessness subverted and channelled into
pretty _awful_ directions.

------
kingkawn
As long as you're willing to go through the early phases of sucking at things
during adulthood you'll be fine. Most people are uncomfortable sucking at
things any other time than childhood. Get rid of that limitation and your
whole life is time to grow not just coast.

------
chookrl
Funny, I've just received my weekly digest and started reading this:
[http://www.quora.com/Life-Advice/I-am-turning-27-and-
feel-I-...](http://www.quora.com/Life-Advice/I-am-turning-27-and-feel-I-have-
wasted-a-lot-of-time-Is-it-too-late)

------
speeder
Awesome article.

And I suspected that in a long time... And I fear I am too slow to do what I
must.

At least, I DID went into some crazy life changing adventures last year,
against all "adult" advice. But this year I already started to want to give up
and go in a safer path.

I am 25 now.

------
cafard
I find it hard to take seriously any information coming from a domain called
"artofmanliness.com". I find myself wondering whether the Art in question is
Donovan, Garfunkel, or Carney.

------
enobrev
I proud to say that a) I have some regrets from my twenties and b) none of
them have a damned thing to do with Albert Einstein or Bill Gates.

------
ececconi
This article would have been much better if it started with the second section
without referencing society's greatest outliers.

------
dodyg
How about this - don't waste you time following what other people think a
fulfilled life should be.

------
known
"You are a product of your environment." --Clement Stone

------
nsxwolf
Too late for me, I guess. Oh well.

------
michaelochurch
Not buying the article.

I agree that no one should waste 10 years of his life-- that seems obvious--
but the article itself is a mix of pseudoscience and anecdote.

In fact, the people who seem least to be "wasting" their 20s-- the ones in IBD
analyst programs and MBA programs-- are the ones losing their creativity the
fastest. If you play the corporate game, creative atrophy sets in, and it's a
rapid process.

~~~
saryant
This is what I realized. I did what a "successful" college grad is supposed to
do: I joined a large company right after college and started a career. Problem
was, I got screwed around by them and quit after six months (finishing up my
two weeks notice right now).

Part of this is that I picked a _bad_ company to join (they had me filling out
dozens of meeting invites in Outlook and doing SAP data entry when I was
supposedly hired as a developer) but I also spent those six months really
thinking about what I wanted to do on a day-to-day basis and where I wanted to
end up in 5, 10, 20 years. I realized that I wasn't creating anything, I was
just following a process. Filling out database table request forms and bashing
my head over trying to explain a cursor to a supposedly senior developer.

So I quit after saving up about a year's living expenses and I'm going to use
the next year to figure _something_ out, not sure what just yet. I've been
kicking around a few ideas and we're going to start talking to potential
customers at the end of the month.

I'll probably end up burning through my savings and going out to find another
job a year from now but at least I'll have tried. If I don't do something
creative I feel like I'm going to forget how. Five years from now I think I'll
regret not trying more than I'll enjoy the fruits of a five-year-old career.

------
largesse
Is HN now the place for junk neuroscience? Seriously?

~~~
wito
HN is for everything that is interesting for hackers. And yes, neuroscience
could be interesting also.

~~~
largesse
I'm fine with actual neuroscience.

