
How Applying Principles from Psychology Can Improve Dating Success - zackattack
http://www.zacharyburt.com/2010/06/compliance-strategies-applying-principles-from-psychology-to-improve-your-dating-success/
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alttab
Almost invariably, all of the painfully single "nerds" I know have such a
thick bubble of pretension that they can't realize that they _suck to be
around._

I've seen math used to model relationships on HN a couple of times, and even
as an intellectual curiosity I believe it to be a complete waste of time.

Using social dynamics and behavioral psychology as a method for _avoiding
social mistakes_ gets you way further than applying it as some sort of game,
from any "guru" of any evo-psych, behavioral analyst, game-community leader or
persuasion researcher/author.

~~~
orangecat
_Almost invariably, all of the painfully single "nerds" I know have such a
thick bubble of pretension that they can't realize that they suck to be
around._

No doubt that's true in many cases. But there's a sizable category of single
males who constantly wind up in the friend zone with women because they (who
am I kidding: we) fundamentally don't produce attraction. PUA techniques are
designed to correct that; I can't do them at all, but they really work.

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pigbucket
_Buying drinks is actually a BAD idea._

This hypothesis was tested by Feynman ( _Surely You're Joking ..._ ),
naturally with success. I think I'd feel a little weird trying to
psychologically hack my love life (if I had a love life). Also, the
mathematical approach doesn't work:

 _Let x denote beauty, -- y, manners well-bred, -- "z, Fortune, -- (this last
is essential), -- "Let L stand for love" -- our philosopher said, -- "Then L
is a function of x, y, and z, "Of the kind which is known as potential."

"Now integrate L with respect to dt, "(t standing for time and persuasion);
"Then, between proper limits, 'tis easy to see, "The definite integral
Marriage must be: -- "(A very concise demonstration)."

Said he -- "If the wandering course of the moon "By Algebra can be predicted,
"The female affections must yield to it soon" -- \-- But the lady ran off with
a dashing dragoon, And left him amazed and afflicted._

\--from "The Mathematician in Love"

~~~
gaius
Ah, but it's more subtle than that. You see you have _already_ been hacked.
Why do boys automatically buy drinks for girls? It's almost as if we've been
_programmed_ to do so, and therefore do it regardless of it "working". But any
bloke whose spent any time in pubs knows, if he thinks about it for a second,
that you buy rounds of drinks with your mates. Buying drinks is a _friendship_
signal, not a mating signal. And if you do it, that's where you'll end up.

~~~
mhb
_that's where you'll end up_

Having sex with your mates?

~~~
pigbucket
Not that there's anything wrong with that! (courtesy nod to Seinfeld). It is
odd (I don't say telling!) that the standard term for sex partner is a
preferred term for a guy's male friend in some places.

~~~
gaius
"Mate" as in friend is an abbreviation of _matelot_ , a French word for
sailor. A lot British English slang originated in the Royal Navy.

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proexploit
Although we are naturally superficial, I think that looks actually have very
little to do with getting the girl. How many times do you see guys with women
that look a lot better than them? A lot in my area. Some of the most "popular"
guys in high school and college wouldn't stand a chance in a modeling
competition but they certainly were confident.

I think the most important traits to develop are confidence, mystery (not
being predictable) and humor. Take care of yourself and try to keep looking
nice, but don't hone in on that aspect.

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reader5000
"I was once dating a girl whom I liked, but wasn’t crazy about, as she didn’t
meet my predefined standards for excellence in a mate."

Obviously this guy is a cool dude.

~~~
DeusExMachina
I don't get if your is irony or not, but I think that having high standards
for the partner we want (especially for life) is a good thing. I don't think
that this is something that has something to do with "being cool".

Why should we settle when the world is full of girls that could match our
preferences? When people start their own startup, they have high aims. Why
should we aim low in our relationships?

~~~
mattchew
It's not his standards, it's his weaselly way of talking about them. Here's
what he said in plain English:

"Even though I was dating her, she really wasn't good enough for me."

Later he says "that doesn't mean she's not a great individual". Gag.

If you really want to blog about how your ex wasn't good enough for you, just
do it straight out and take the heat.

~~~
zackattack
People sure do love the appearance of consistency. Your criticism is logically
invalid: just because I think that Alan Kay is a great individual doesn't mean
that he meets my personal "standards for excellence in a mate".

However, your criticism is valid from a practical perspective, so I sincerely
thank you.

~~~
mattchew
Well, you're welcome. Saying something that sounds bad isn't the end of the
world (good thing for me). Live and learn.

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datapimp
OP is learning from Cialdini. But he should really be learning from Mystery,
and other pick up artists who have been field testing principles from
Evolutionary Psychology for over a decade.

~~~
philwelch
I think the OP's tactics would be great for meeting a long term marriage
partner. PUA tactics are for pickups, and a lot of them are a bit too black-
hattish, manipulative, and dishonest for serious adult relationships.

~~~
datapimp
That's a common criticism, but it is mostly false and dependent on the person
who is using the science to be more successful in getting what they want.

What mystery is talking about is simple attraction psychology, and it is all
based on evolutionary psychology. Incidentally, so are all "serious adult
relationships". Mystery says that women are attracted to men who display three
things: 1) they're leaders of men 2) they are desirable by other women 3) they
take care of their people. As anyone who has been in a "serious adult
relationship" can tell you, these things are just as important for maintaining
attraction in a long term relationship as they are in a one night stand.

The things mystery and more serious evolutionary psychologists have elaborated
on are valid in all cases where men desire to maintain the attraction of a
woman. It isn't entirely selfish or manipulative either. Women want to be
attracted to you.

~~~
philwelch
If I was going to try and look for scientific backing for my dating technique,
I would use behavioral psychology like the OP rather than evolutionary
psychology. Evo-psych is a decent source of hypotheses, but until those
hypotheses are empirically verified case-by-case they don't count for much.
It's not a theory that's particularly good at picking out one hypothesis as
better than the other because you can make up equally plausible evo-psych
stories for a lot of hypotheses before-the-fact.

Confounding this, of course, is the huge challenge of overcoming ethnocentrism
--you might assume that standard Western behaviors and attitudes around
sexuality are universal human things, but in a lot of cases they're just
culturally-dependent arbitrary crap. Evo-psych won't help with this. As far as
evo-psych helps you, at best it'll help you attract cro-magnon hunter-gatherer
chicks, not affluent Westerners with all kinds of cultural influences added
on, influences that evo-psych fundamentally has no way of predicting.

Behavioral psych is tricky since any psych study on affluent Western chicks
will have conclusions which can only be confidently applied to affluent
Western chicks, but if that's who you're trying to pick up that's a help, not
a hindrance.

~~~
asdflkj
What cultural influences are you talking about? Can you give an example?
Specifically, what influences that aren't just a parameter within the
framework of evolutionary psychology?

~~~
philwelch
Cultural variations in meeting-and-mating practices are all around if you read
the tiniest bit of anthropology on the subject. Can you clarify what you mean
by "just a parameter within the framework of evolutionary psychology"?

~~~
asdflkj
I mean back in hunter-gatherer days, women were impressed by your animal hides
or whatnot, and not your luxury car, but those two things are isomorphic. You
can find a lot of such ultimately trivial variation, where you only have to
adjust your model a tiny bit. Give me an example of an important social
phenomenon not explicable through a minor adjustment to common ev-psych
principles.

~~~
philwelch
I think the argument for claiming evo-psych justifications for PUA techniques
make the assumption that picking up women in bars is at all isomorphic to
human sexual practices among prehistoric hunter-gatherers. You can't even find
practices isomorphic to that among all (or even most) contemporary human
cultures--how can you claim that as some sort of universal human thing?

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Tycho
Sigh... I _hate_ turning everything into a game. I guess it works for other
people though

~~~
orangecat
_I hate turning everything into a game._

Me too. And for some reason I'm still single...

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adamdecaf
1) Buying people thing just to get them to like you doesn't actually work!!!

2) Be annoying and don't answer back, even when you know the other person is
very punctual.

3) Actually pay attention and compliment the other person on what they like to
do.

4) Make yourself look better (dress up for dates).

5) Be confident.

Alright, I'm just gonna move along with my life...

Really, I thought this was for important and interesting articles, not some
stupid "pop culture" magazine forum.

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Aaronontheweb
Am I the only person here who thinks that most of the comments on this thread
are indicative of people grossly over-thinking dating?

The only real pre-requisite for dating is that you like yourself; if you like
yourself, then other people will (although not all people.) Everything else
you'll have to learn experientially - everything from how to collect a phone
number to how to tactfully handle delicate / awkward situations.

~~~
paulnelligan
You said what I was thinking. This idea that you have to manipulate women into
liking you through psychology obviously means that your own natural charms
aren't working.

Having a good time, joking, laughing, and enjoying yourself is going to help
you a lot more than focusing on the pitch of your voice - but that's just my
perspective.

In reality, these dating self-help books and the people who use them creep me
out a bit. Mostly because I have a sister and many close female friends.

~~~
gaius
You're missing the point. It's about unlearning things you've been told which
are wrong. Like the point about buying a girl a drink, it obviously doesn't
"work", yet boys keep doing it anyway, because, umm, well, that's just what
you do, isn't it?

Sure there is a lot of bullshit around, but the basic principle of all this
pick-artist business is, you're using a "routine" anyway, just without being
consciously aware that you are, instead you should take conscious control of
it.

~~~
paulnelligan
Fair enough - if you need it, then use it.

I buy drinks for women, and get bought drinks by women, especially if I'm out
on a date. I generally don't have any issues with it, and it never really
affects my chances - maybe it's just the culture I live in ...

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cianestro
<http://www.odopod.com/work/donq-ladydata/> for laughs.

