

Wrong man was executed in Texas, probe says - bitops
http://news.yahoo.com/wrong-man-executed-texas-probe-says-051125159.html

======
tptacek
Categorically opposed to the death penalty for every possible reason: moral,
religious, practical. But: what the hell is this article doing on HN?

No shit, you say? Capital punishment is inane, unjust, and difficult to
justify in a message board thread? Wow! Glad we sorted that out! Can we move
on now?

If every legitimate social justice issue had a hearing on HN, the front page
would be _nothing but_ social justice issues.

Flagged.

~~~
pg
This isn't just a business-as-usual government-screws-up story. I have not
seen a case of wrongful execution as bad as this. So while it's not evidence
of an interesting new phenomenon, it's new evidence of an interesting
phenomenon.

~~~
tptacek
In most cases where social justice stories are plastered to the top of the
front page, the people voting them up also believe that the story is uniquely
interesting or important. Likelihood that this particular comment of yours is
going to be used to justify many future stories like that, most of which will
not be germane to the site: _extremely high_.

I also object to the idea that miscarriages of justice in death penalty cases
are a "new phenomenon". This isn't a new phenomenon. It's just pithy, enough
to capture the front page.

~~~
andrewem
Having lived in Texas for 12 years I totally agree that this case isn't
unique, in that Texas regularly appoints public defenders who are unqualified
for the job or so overworked they can't possibly provide an adequate defense
(1). And courts are happy to convict people whose lawyer sleeps during the
trial (2). I express no opinion on whether this is suitable for HN.

(1) "Appointed as his advocates were a general practice lawyer who never had
handled a major felony case and a veteran who had a heavy case load." (2) "The
presiding judge said that the Constitution guarantees a defendant a lawyer,
but it does not guarantee that the lawyer must be awake."
<http://www.secondclassjustice.com/?p=196>

------
reginaldo
People are saying lots of things about the death penalty, with which I
wholeheartedly disagree, but IMHO the really bad thing is this:

 _DeLuna was sentenced to death and executed based only on eyewitness accounts
despite a range of signs he was not a guilty man, said law professor James
Liebman_

Eyewitness accounts are proven to be wrong again and again. They should not be
used to convict anyone. Much less to the death penalty. The brain has this
amazing (if a little buggy) capacity of sometimes being completely wrong and
at the same time being absolutely sure that it is right (like it happens, for
instance, when you see an optical illusion).

I believe there was a time when they were useful (but even then, they were
used to falsely accuse - sometimes intentionally, sometimes not). But now
there's enough technology to make me think convictions should be made based
only on material evidence. Eyewitness accounts should be used only to give
context to the material evidence found. If there's not any, tough luck. I
would have a very hard time reconciling if, for instance, being accused of
rape/assault like it happened to this guy:
[http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/27/local/la-me-
accused-...](http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/27/local/la-me-
accused-20110628)

~~~
Dove
Eyewitness testimony is the leading cause of wrongful convictions, according
to the Innocence Project:

<http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/>

------
koko775
I know it's tacky to meta-complain, but public interest articles are one of
the reasons I stopped reading Reddit.

I am looking for one particular kind of "signal" in that signal-to-noise
ratio, and while this might be of interest to a population including hackers,
a population of hackers would likely not identify this article as relevant,
outrageous though the article may be.

I've noticed HN's articles growing steadily less and less interesting. Perhaps
it's time to move again. Any suggestions? MeFi? Other sites? Does a new one
need to be created?

~~~
treyp
this is why there's a flag link for each submission

 _Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate
for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to
its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there
is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that
you did._

<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

~~~
koko775
I can do that (I think I can flag, but this was not always the case), and
silently grow to hate the content on HN as flagging fails to catch the
borderline cases (and possibly devalue each individual flag).

Or I can break that rule to voice displeasure and hope that someone shared
that opinion enough to point me somewhere better, create somewhere better, or
effect change.

> If your account is less than a year old, please don't submit comments saying
> that HN is turning into Reddit. (It's a common semi-noob illusion.)

My account is over a year old (and I've lurked for longer). Therefore, I'm
good!

But in all seriousness, while it probably is not turning into Reddit, I'm
certainly planning to relegate HN, for the purposes of my news browsing / time
management, to a category shared with other spammy news sites, for somewhat
similar reasons.

~~~
krschultz
I've been here over 4.5 years, and I can say that HN is not turning into
Reddit. The quality of the front page has not declined.

The volume of stories submitted has grown dramatically, making it harder for
the good content to get on the front page.

But this article definitely has no place on the front page. I flagged it,
hopefully it will be gone soon.

------
keithflower
Related: California has placed the Savings, Accountability and Full
Enforcement for California Act (the SAFE California Act) on the November 2012
ballot.

The move to get this on the ballot was led by a former warden of California's
San Quentin prison, Jeanne Woodford:

“California is on the brink of replacing the death penalty with a sentence of
life in prison with no chance of parole as the maximum punishment for murder,”
Woodford said. “In November, voters will have the first opportunity ever to
decide between the death penalty and a sentence of life in prison with
absolutely no chance of parole. Back in 1978, we did not have an alternative
sentence that would keep convicted killers behind bars forever. We certainly
did not know that we would spend $4 billion on 13 executions. Our system is
broken, expensive and it always will carry the grave risk of a mistake. SAFE
California offers a solution with savings at a time when we’re laying off
teachers and cutting vital services.”

I urge support of this measure:

<http://www.safecalifornia.org/act>

------
bitops
OP here - apologies to the folks who don't think it's HN-worthy. I usually shy
away from posting anything like this on HN, but IMHO the death penalty
stimulates my intellectual curiosity. Usual politics and "gee whiz poll
numbers" not so much.

The death penalty is a deep issue, and I posted this on HN because I'd like to
hear what the thoughtful folks in this community have to say on the topic.

Also, since I see a lot of people misquoting the Hacker News submission
guidelines here they are in full, emphasis mine.

"Hacker News Guidelines

What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting.
That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a
sentence, the answer might be: _anything that gratifies one's intellectual
curiosity._

Off-Topic: _Most_ stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters,
or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's _probably_ off-
topic."

~~~
krschultz
I've often considered that a HN style politics page would be interesting if
you could somehow keep it from turning into a flaming mess.

That said, I don't believe this is Hacker News and I flagged it. It's going to
devolve into politics in about 8 seconds and we try to avoid that.

~~~
bitops
That's a fair point. Unfortunately, it's too late for me to delete. Lesson
learned - I'll refrain from posting this kind of story in the future.

------
delinka
This is the entire reason people petition against the death penalty. And while
I've said I can see the need for capital punishment, as a juror I would never
sentence someone to death because mistakes happen, the wrong people are
accused, evidence gets fucked (accidentally, intentionally), etc.

The mistake isn't worth someone's life.

~~~
asto
The death penalty is required. The judiciary just needs to have conclusive
proof of the crime.

For example, right now, in one of India's jails lies a man named Ajmal Kasab.
He is one of the terrorists involved in the 26/11 attack on Mumbai. He was
caught on tape mercilessly killing people with his AK47.

If you do away with the death penalty entirely, how do you execute this fucker
and others like him?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks>

Edit: A lot of people asking similar questions. So I'll just answer them here.

Being identified by eye-witnesses and being caught on camera are not the same
thing. People make mistakes while remembering. Cameras don't. Further, he was
apprehended by the army/police in the middle of his killing spree. There is NO
WAY it was someone else.

Handing him a life imprisonment just puts the system at risk. It will just
lead to terrorists resorting to kidnap to release him as has been done in the
past. A well known example:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Airlines_Flight_814>

~~~
jstabbac
This should be a contreversal comment, so I'm going to say now that I'm just
posting this rebuttal and not getting into an e-argument.

The criminal system isn't for punishment. It's for reform. It's not to 'get
back' at people, it's to help integrate people back into society and act as a
deterrent to stop crime in the first place. You're not trying to 'execute this
fucker and others like him', you're trying to figure out what's wrong, how you
can reform (if possible), and deter other crimes like it. If you're just
executing it's a hell of a deterrence, but you're not reforming at all.

Remember the Oslo masscare? Read up on the perpetrator and his sentence.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik>

~~~
asto
If I were king of the world, I wouldn't sentence Anders to death either. It's
sad that he turned out a madman and did what he did but surely you can't kill
people who are mentally ill for being so.

There's a big difference between somebody who's medically declared insane and
a member of a terrorist organisation who killed people as his masters wanted
for the sole purpose of creating terror.

------
vibrunazo
"Eye witness testimony is the lowest form of evidence in science. Which is
sad, because it's the highest form of evidence in the court of law."

Neil D. Tyson

------
adrianwaj
My view is that when someone is wrongly executed, justice is not finished -
someone must be held accountable and punished. It's not just "oh well."
Sometimes prosecutors are happy to see a conviction even if they know it's
wrong, just for their reputations. These people, I'd argue, could be put to
death too. Murder.

You can't have the death penalty in a broken system, it enables the same
crimes it attempts to deter, and with death there's no recourse. 20 rights and
1 wrong is just unacceptable. In reality, the false positives are apparently
much, much more despicable. Just do a search on final statements for
"innocent" or "innocence."

------
acuozzo
Carlos' last words:
[http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/dr_info/delunacarloslast.ht...](http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/dr_info/delunacarloslast.html)

------
mxfh
The original source seems to be this more sophisticated article at The
Guardian which was published earlier today.
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/15/carlos-texas-
inn...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/15/carlos-texas-innocent-man-
death)

------
systematical
And this is why the death penalty should be outlawed. If there is even a
0.001% chance we could execute an innocent person than its not worth it.
Unfortunately I think the probability of executing an innocent person is much
higher. Humans are imperfect and should not play god.

------
tvon
I'm not entirely sure how this relates to HN.

~~~
delinka
Does it need to "relate" to this site? If it doesn't get the votes, it'll be
gone in no time.

~~~
Rudism
I bet that's what they used to say on Reddit...

------
anamax
I'll bet that >100 other innocents who were treated far worse by the system
were killed by prison during the time Texas took to execute this guy. And,
this would continue even if the US abandoned the death penalty.

If you're looking to save innocents from being killed by prison, death row is
the wrong place to look. No matter how inadequate you feel the process is for
death penalty cases, it's significantly worse for folks who get other
sentences. Since prison kills people (and not just with "live without
parole)....

No, they don't "get a [meaningful] chance to prove their innocence. They just
die, killed by prison just as much as someone intentionally executed.

------
mhartl
Would people be so torqued up if this were a wrongful imprisonment in
Massachusetts instead of a wrongful execution in Texas? I doubt it, which
suggests that this story may be pushing buttons in your brain other than
_injustice == bad_.

Wrongful conviction is bad in any case; the death penalty aspect is simply
inflammatory. Executions are irreversible, but so is imprisonment. They might
let you out if they discover you're innocent, but there's no way to refund you
your lost time.

------
RedwoodCity
With the American justice system it would have been cheaper to keep him in
prison for life than to execute him for murder, due to the number of appeals
allowed.

------
tomkin
In Ontario, Michael Rafferty & Terri-Lynn McClinic were recently convicted of
the murder of Tori Stafford. Lots of _pro-capital punishment_ banter as of
late. In this case, it was pretty open/shut. You could say he is the perfect
candidate for capital punishment. I wouldn't, but many would.

My problem is – our judicial system pretending these people can be
reconditioned, like a refurbished electronic or something. Terri-Lynn
McClintic was wicked well before the murder, even doing things like
microwaving a small dog until it cried.

These people cannot be reconditioned. And when you take a look at the science,
it comes down to bad wiring. So does killing them make sense knowing that they
are mentally damaged and not simply moonlighting as maniacs?

With tongue in cheek, we need Minority Report-style decommissioning.
Technology to the rescue.

------
TYPE_FASTER
Not for the first time:
[http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_...](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann)

------
laserDinosaur
..and that's just like Linux vs Microsoft.

------
moldbug
Great - independent, open-source defense lawyering.

Make sure when you read a press release like this, though, that if there isn't
a press release saying the courts have convicted an innocent man, there isn't
a press release at all. Which means Professor Liebman and his students have
wasted their time. Which they don't want to do, so they are anything but
disinterested investigators.

I mean, you're not going to see a headline that says "Murderer walks free in
Texas, probe says." I mean, duh. That happens all the time, so who cares?
There's certainly no market for an independent, open-source prosecution...

------
horsehead
F __king ridiculous.

Doesn't this make the prosecutors in this case guilty of murder?

~~~
endersshadow
Murder means intent. It makes them guilty of manslaughter, at best. I don't
know if there's any legal precedent for that (I'm not a lawyer), but I'd
imagine that a civil case by the deceased's family for a wrongful death would
be in order.

