
Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany - pseudolus
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-13/clash-over-surveillance-software-turns-personal-in-germany
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sveme
I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working
for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian
regimes. Are they heading home to family and kids after destroying the
remnants of the turkish democracy and tell themselves "twas a good day"?

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wolfgke
In Germany (where I live), the job market for software developers is not that
you can arbitrarily choose for whom you want to work; you have to take the job
that you can get (and I know quite some people (in Germany) who work in
software development who would love to find a better job).

So I personally believe that these people simply could not find a better job
with less moral dilemmas.

~~~
esotericn
Let me get this straight, the choice is between:

a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing
evil things

b) You and your extended family starve and die

Sorry, I'm just not buying it. What actually happens is that people decide
that it's convenient to ignore the moral issues for a bit more comfort;
basically, they "don't care".

There does exist some vanishingly small fraction of people on the boundary of
homelessness for which they literally have to do everything to survive. I
don't believe that this is a large group in Germany and I doubt anyone
intelligent and healthy enough to be a professional software developer is in
that group.

If you want to maximize earnings, go for it. You're only lying to yourself if
you pretend it's the only option, though.

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RHSeeger
I think you're making this a little more black and white than it really is.
How about

a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing
evil things

b) fail to cover your mortgage payment this month and your house is foreclosed
on.

That choice is a lot more likely than just "you die". And the choice between
bending your morals and losing your house is still a hard one.

_(I don't know how mortgages and foreclosures and the like work in Germany,
I'm just giving an example that I'm familiar with)_

~~~
esotericn
So don't take out a mortgage that you can't afford to pay off.

It has the potential to make you a slave, as you illustrate in your example.

These things don't just happen. If you stand up for what you believe in then
perhaps you get fewer toys.

It is how it is. I'd rather be poor and stand up for what I believe in than
rich and a dickhead. YMMV.

The fact that someone has sunk costs does not give them a pass.

~~~
RHSeeger
> So don't take out a mortgage that you can't afford to pay off.

Are you implying that you shouldn't take out a mortgage that you can't pay off
without a job? That makes no sense at all. I'll admit you shouldn't take out a
mortgage that you will default on if you're out of work for 1 month, but
plenty of people wind up out of work for longer periods of time.

~~~
esotericn
I'm saying that you should aim to not get caught up in a lifestyle in which
you significantly increase the chance that you will feel forced to do bad
things in the future to maintain it.

I won't give hard figures because really this mortgage example is just one of
many. It's a basic principles thing.

Poor people living hand to mouth have no choice. A qualified software
developer really does.

If you mortgage yourself to the hilt and have two kids you can barely afford,
then you might well say "oh, my responsibility is towards my family now". Some
people respect that.

I think it's bullshit. Anyone can increase their lifestyle to meet their
income, pile up debts and then claim they just have to do whatever bossman
says because otherwise it'll all unravel.

~~~
RHSeeger
> Anyone can increase their lifestyle to meet their income, pile up debts and
> then claim they just have to do whatever bossman says because otherwise
> it'll all unravel.

And anyone can go from doing well to living in their car.

When I was younger, I was doing well for myself. I wasn't in debt, I rented
(no mortgage), happily newly married. And then the economy dropped out from
under me and I lost everything. My job, all my savings, etc. We had less than
a month of (cheap) rent left in the bank. Eventually, my wife and I had to
move so she could take a job further away. She was still in grad school and
had to travel 90 minutes each way to meet with people at the school. That was
because I couldn't find a job that would support us (after over a year of
looking). We didn't have to compromise our morals, but we did have to make a
decision that sucked for us. Because shitty things happen.

My family and I are back in a good place now. But I recognize that somethings
things fall apart no matter how well you plan, and I don't judge people based
on the decisions that felt they had to make at such times. I may disagree with
their decisions, but I don't believe they are bad people because of them.

If you get a chance, watch The Wave. It's a good example of how sometimes even
normal "not bad" people can wind up making bad decisions.

~~~
esotericn
Sure. I think we mostly see eye to eye on this FWIW.

I'm glad you found your way through what sounds like a tough situation.

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cyborgx7
Off-topic: This is an article I would consider spending 1-3 dollars to read.
But the only option for me is to subscribe. Therefore I won't be reading it
and they won't get my money. I know that on demand paying for articles hasn't
been made to work yet. But it still feels like there is a potential here that
isn't being serviced.

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d3v
There is a Dutch company called Blendle[0] that has figured this out pretty
well locally, and also has a BETA program running in the United States[1].
Articles are often much cheaper than 1-3 dollars, I don't recall paying more
than 1 eur. They also combat clickbait titles and intros by providing a refund
when the article turns out lousy.

[0]: [https://blendle.com/](https://blendle.com/) [1]:
[https://launch.blendle.com/](https://launch.blendle.com/)

~~~
cyborgx7
Just signed up for it. It looks good, but I am seeing a bunch of clickbait.
Already had to use the refund feature once.

But the bigger problem is that I generally come to articles through social
media or links from friends. Do I have to search for every article to see if
they released it on Blendle? Also, a lot of them seem to change titles so that
is actually pretty difficult.

~~~
acollins1331
If they had to change their title to not be clickbait for Blendle, maybe just
assume it's a clickbait article

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neonate
[https://outline.com/22p4mF](https://outline.com/22p4mF)

~~~
BLKNSLVR
Alternative coverage with no paywall bypass required:
[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/10/finfisher_authors_l...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/10/finfisher_authors_legal_threats_german_journalists/)

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maze-le
Interview about the issue in german: [https://netzpolitik.org/2019/interview-
zur-finfisher-abmahnu...](https://netzpolitik.org/2019/interview-zur-
finfisher-abmahnung-die-community-kann-in-solchen-rechtsstreitigkeiten-ein-
trumpf-sein/)

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lhoff
Another episode of Streisand[1] is calling and she wants her cease-and-desist
letter back or in other words how to geht the most puplic attention to a
newspaper article.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)

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zmix
Where did that turn "personal"? Who has been attacked or harmed? I did not
find any reference to this in the article.

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slater
from TFA:

"But this time, the company’s antagonists ramped up the pressure. Contained in
the complaint were the names of FinFisher employees who the groups say are
responsible."

~~~
zmix
Ah, okay, thanks.

