
I wrote “ISIS Beer Funds” in a Venmo memo and the feds detained my $42 - jseliger
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/04/i-wrote-isis-beer-funds-in-a-venmo-memo-and-the-feds-detained-my-42/
======
jamessb
This seems somewhat pointless - surely anyone trying to tranfer fudns to a
terrorist organisation would not use its real name.

I'd also expect quite a lot of false positives if they're simply flagging all
transactions containing the word "ISIS", and not just from jokes.

Isis is also the name of the river flowing through Oxford, and hence a part of
the name of many legitimate entities with a connection to the surrounding
area. Within the unviersity of Oxford, the technology transfer office is "ISIS
innovations", and the men's reserve boat race crew is called Isis. There's an
ISIS neutron source at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory. It also appears in
the name of branches of larger organisations (eg. the "Rotary Club of Oxford
Isis" and "Oxford Isis Toastmasters"), plus various private businesses
(including Isis security and the Isis guest house).

~~~
secfirstmd
The UK Ministry of Defence system for classifying supplier codes is also
called ISIS.

[https://www.isisweb.mod.uk/webisis/navigate.do](https://www.isisweb.mod.uk/webisis/navigate.do)

------
grimmdude
"The moral of the story, I guess, is not to buy $42 worth of beer at a bar in
the West Village."

Hmmm, not sure sure that's what I would take away from this.

------
jaytaylor
I wonder how effective this sort of (brain dead) regulation has been at
hindering actual enemies of the state.

It's a shame there is no transparency in this system.

~~~
mindslight
We're all potential enemies of this "state", so somewhat effective.

I'm hoping for an entertaining populist civil disobedience campaign over this.

------
blackbagboys
Can someone explain the legal justification under which the government can
direct a private entity to indefinitely seize a third party's assets with no
due process?

~~~
cdumler
It's called Civil Forfeiture. The money was arrested and charged with a crime.
Since he's not a party the crime, unless he wants to admin being a party to
it, he can't defend the cash. Since it can't defend itself, there is no need
for the trial as it is going to lose by default; therefore, the cash can be
taken. Makes one's blood boil.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States)

Cool thing is police now out steal thieves in the U.S. for the group most
likely to take your stuff:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-
took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/)

~~~
blackbagboys
I don't think that's what's occurring here; no crime is alleged to have
occurred, he admitted being party to whatever was going on, and OFAC has
directed Venmo to withhold his assets, they haven't directly appropriated
them.

------
paublyrne
Let's hope that real ISIS supporters are thoughtless enough to include the
word ISIS in their communications.

~~~
jpalomaki
Probably this is at CYA ("Cover Your Ass") security [1] in action. Everybody
knows these terms are not very useful on these lists, but also want to make
sure they don't end up having to explain why all other names were listed, but
the something as obvious as this was left out.

[1]
[https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/02/cya_security_...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/02/cya_security_1.html)

------
tetromino_
No different from being detained and banned from boarding if you joke about a
bomb at an airport.

There isn't much incentive for TSA or OFAC agents to apply common sense or
attempt to detect irony. Because (1) that requires mental effort, (2) if you
get it wrong and decide someone is serious when they were joking, it doesn't
hurt you any other than needing to waste some time on paperwork, and (3) if
you get it wrong and decide someone is joking when they were serious, then
you've put people's lives in jeopardy, terminated your career, and perhaps
opened yourself up for legal liability.

~~~
dwaltrip
He's not at the airport. This is a PRIVATE communication between two
individuals. It's absurd that this power is available to a government.

~~~
FireBeyond
Where private is defined as "financial transaction through an intermediary who
is bound by several laws regarding the laundering or potential illegal use of
money".

~~~
dwaltrip
I understand your point. However, this is the modern way of physically handing
$10 bucks you owe to your friend. Similarly, a private e-mail, which is now
scanned and indexed by the government along with everyone else's e-mail, is
the modern equivalent of sending snail mail 50 years ago, in which there was
0% chance any higher power would have read and catalogued your letter.

We shouldn't have to live in the past because the government takes advantage
of technological progress with massive power grabs. The potential for
devastating abuse is so great. Imagine how this power would have been abused
over the past century, if it existed then.

------
whatnotests
It's like rejecting emails as "spam" because they contain the word "spam".

Ridiculous.

------
gozur88
I don't have much sympathy - that's a pretty dumb thing to write.

Of course in 99.9999% of cases this is just some dumb joke. But look at it
from the FBI's (or whoever's) perspective: if this just happens to be the one
time it isn't the press will be all over them saying "My God, how could you
not take this seriously?" And the first priority of any bureaucracy is the
protection of the bureaucracy.

------
pjlegato
I think Venmo is more at fault here than the government.

The government prohibits asset transfers between a certain public list of
organizations. This list happens to include an organization called "ISIS".
Implementing that prohibition is Venmo's problem.

Venmo then wrote a program to just scan all transactions against the list and
auto-block all matches, as the least-effort path to compliance.

It's not Venmo's money, so they don't care. Most people whose legitimate
transfers get blocked in this filter don't have a media platform to complain
about it, so they aren't worried about negative publicity.

Finally, in terms of risk analysis, false positives are much cheaper than
false negatives. If they allow a legally prohibited transfer through, then
they're going to face a firestorm from the government. Expensive.

But if they block many legitimate transfers, they only annoy a few users and
at most have to issue a few refunds. Cheap.

Actually having a human involved in the decision would cost them more, and
expose them to more risk.

So, simple dumb keyword filters control our private finances now.

~~~
twelve40
Venmo is probably just following what banks and other fintech companies are
doing already. They don't even have to write anything themselves, there are
commonly used third-party OFAC services like LexisNexis where you throw your
transaction data over the wall, they come back with the verdict, you then just
follow instructions and cross compliance off your list of things to worry
about.

------
nvahalik
Your government can either provide you with freedom or it can provide you with
security. Get ready to pay up America—freedom isn't free.

~~~
mindcrime
_Your government can either provide you with freedom or it can provide you
with security._

I see no reason to believe government can provide either. And in fact, I'd say
government is always, by definition, an assault on the former of the two.

~~~
krapp
> And in fact, I'd say government is always, by definition, an assault on the
> former of the two.

Found the anarchist.

~~~
mindcrime
Ayuh... you got 'im. :-)

------
Rmilb
Would the funds still be held if he was sending the money to reimburse a fiend
to one of the many businesses with "Isis", in its name?

[http://www.businessinsider.com/companies-with-the-name-
isis-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/companies-with-the-name-isis-2014-9)

~~~
abrowne
Or people names Isis?

------
joesmo
I can't imagine the incredible stupidity that led to this regulation. As if
terrorists are actually going to use the acronym ISIS. They don't even use
that acronym when talking about themselves. In fact, I don't think anyone
outside the US uses that acronym. Even if they did, I doubt they would be that
stupid to use it in an actual money transfer. They are not as stupid as the
people making these regulations.

But I disagree with the author. Sounds like the moral of the story is to not
send money online whenever possible and when not possible, to always use a
benign description, even if it's a lie.

~~~
HillRat
Well, OFAC seeks to regulate transactions with proscribed groups and
individuals. Normal banking covers this in part with "know your customer"
(KYC) rules and processes, but I guess Venmo decided it needs to cast a wider
net. In this case, I wouldn't blame OFAC; they just got a suspicious activity
report and now have to act on it.

------
shmageggy
Who's going to be the first to prove how idiotic this system is by DDOSing
OFAC with (im)properly labeled micropayments?

------
devishard
Surely ISIS doesn't use the word ISIS when attempting to transfer funds.

------
x5n1
pathetic and a sign of things to come.

------
whatnotests
I'm pretty sure ISIS would not be so stupid as to actually list their
purchases as being intended for "ISIS-" anything.

What kind of morons are writing these scanning bots?

smh

~~~
teddyuk
I worked on a project with uk banks, there is an international sanction list
that is people and organisations and they name match them so this name is on
the list hence why it was caught, it isn't very technical.

------
grifter2000
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

