
Ask HN: What can I do in 2-3 months to secure a developer job? - compscikid
I graduated from my university 3 weeks ago with a Computer Science degree. Unfortunately I never really spent too much time working on side projects or getting industry experience; most time was just spent working on my coursework.<p>I&#x27;ve sent out a lot of job applications and either I&#x27;ve only gotten rejections back or it&#x27;s been radio silence. I&#x27;ve applied to about 10 companies, ranging from multinational companies to smaller startups.<p>At this point it&#x27;s getting sort of stressful not finding work. Can anyone shed some light on what I should do to maybe land a job in 2-3 months? I would say I have a strong background in Computer Science and I can definitely program. Should I work on a portfolio or something like that?<p>Thanks!
======
mamcx
Some other ideas, besides the ones here:

\- A lot of developers never think in "normal" business as possible employers
as developers. Maybe is a USA thing, but in my country the #1 is always the
NO-STARTUP/NO-TECH company. Like for example, shops, service companies, etc.
The small/medium are not that into recruit developers, so is likely you could
get something just telling them you are a developer.

A lot of small & medium size business want/need a developer to automated a lot
of (surely boring!) stuff. If you relatives have one of that kind of company,
look at there. Maybe doing light sysadmin, some users support, make some
scripts here and there, make the company website/app, etc.

This is valuable learning. And you can't get this at a startup. The idea is
relieve the burden of not have a job and have the leisure to pursuit without
pressure.

Is not a bat career start, if you are smart about it. Plus: Is not crowded!

\- Think seriously in what kind of software you truly want to make, that could
be profitable. A start doing that now. I regret badly not make my own software
early, for fear of get crush by large companies.

You will need a lot of time to get the skills and true knowledge to have a
real product, so that is why is smart to start early and iterate for a while.
Don't rush to market too early. Your first attempts will suck (likely) but
time help a lot.

\- Focus in learn how be a great developer. Don't stop at that. Is your plan
to have your own startup? Learn how make business too. Maybe do games? Learn
about that. Etc..

\- Make exercise. Now is better than tomorrow.

------
Wilduck
Honestly, filling in your skill gaps, or creating side projects is definitely
a fun way to spend a few months. If you can afford it, enjoy that time.

However, if you want to get a job, you already have the skill set you need.
All you need to do is apply to a ton more than 10 places in 3 weeks. You
should be getting in contact with 15-20 potential employers each day. Keep a
text file or spreadsheet with notes on who you contacted each day. You should
be sending out enough emails that when someone replies, you'll have to look
them up in your notes to find out who they are.

If you have a CS degree, and are a reasonably competent developer, there is
definitely a job out there for you right now. It's just a matter of getting in
contact with the people who may want to hire you.

~~~
compscikid
Thanks for the reply. Both of what you said (filling the skills gaps and
applying to more places) is great advice. I think what I'm planning on doing
is a combination of both e.g. apply to 10 places per week and also build on
the side and potentially join a team.

------
rgbrgb
First, don't feel bad. I've seen a lot of smart people have a lot of trouble
finding entry level jobs lately. Luckily you are in an industry with ample
opportunity.

Next, be proactive. Apply to 10 companies a day. Just think about the numbers,
your conversion rate, and sending out resumes. You won't know your conversion
rate until you apply to a ton of jobs. With the background you said and lack
of any real experience, 95% of companies are going to want to pass because
they want someone who knows framework/language X and can hit the ground
running. However, that leaves 5% that are willing to train interns or even
full-time hires with 0 experience. The problem is that you can't really tell
which are which type of company so you've got to send resumes to everyone.
After sending out 100 resumes take a step back, evaluate your approach and
success rate, then get back to it.

While you're sending out resumes, spend a small portion of your time reaching
out to anyone you know in the industry (including your friends from school who
just got jobs) and ask them to take a look at your resume.

There's really no shortage of tech companies you can apply to, especially if
you're willing to relocate. Where are you located now?

One more tip: My friend who had next to no experience got a job at Google as a
contractor through a 3rd party company. He gets very solid pay and access to
all of Google's lux facilities/food and he didn't even have to do a technical
interview. I think they do this because if you suck they can basically fire
you anytime.

Good Luck!

~~~
d3gamer
> My friend who had next to no experience got a job at Google as a contractor
> through a 3rd party company. He gets very solid pay and access to all of
> Google's lux facilities/food and he didn't even have to do a technical
> interview. I think they do this because if you suck they can basically fire
> you anytime.

Yup. Not a lot of people know this, but a significant percentage of people at
Google are contractors (red badges). One of my friends is currently working
there as a contracted web developer. He said that while working there is
awesome, the turnover in the contractor ranks is very high and there is not a
lot of support for newbies. It is pretty much a sink-or-swim environment.
Outside of "codelabs", there isn't much documentation of their internal tools
so my friend has to constantly read the source code to figure out how to use
something.

------
angrymouse
Something worthwhile is matching the types of jobs you want in the future as
well as now and creating a list of the experience or skills they want.

After that, look at what you are lacking or need to learn to fill in those
gaps. Create a list of projects and just jump in. Make a blog/journal to track
your development for your own sake as well as a good resource to point at.
Often grads have lots of good solid skills.

Also worthwhile getting a friend to look at your CV. It might not be
highlighting the right skills. Similarly, have a base template but ensure you
tailor it to each company and job post (I'm sure you do that but is an easy
mistake).

A nice tool (UK job posting only but good none the less) is
[http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/](http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/) which lets you
see what is trending and important in IT job posting. Have you got what is the
new hotness?

Make sure you create a compelling cover letter for your CV. Place I work they
just hired 3 new people, a bad or boring cover letter killed the chances of
many amongst the hundreds of applicants.

Job hunting can be hard. I remember finishing my Masters, having a newborn to
look after and no other income coming in and pressure on me to get a job. Took
longer than I wanted but I got there and I am sure you will too!

~~~
compscikid
Thanks for the advice. I really like the idea of figuring out where my skill
gaps are and then working to fill those.

------
benjaminwai
In my experience, companies tend to look for what you have done rather than
what you simply know from a degree. Couple of suggestions maybe -

\- To start with, identify any specific individual or team projects from your
courses and highlight them on your CV, instead of just listing the classes.

\- Look for small coding projects - talk to friends, family and neighbors, see
if they know someone who might need help. It could be something as simple as
helping a local club or mom & pop store to set up their first web page - start
from there.

\- While searching, on the side pick an area of technology and get familiar
with it. For example - if you are not hands-on familiar with various
databases: download MongoDB, see if you can configure it, get it running, and
build a sample project with it. Then maybe download MySQL, get it running as
well and figure out the difference. You could look into web servers, CMS, AWS,
mobile apps, and all kind of things.

All these little bits you learnt and did will come in handy on your CV and,
more so, if you do land an interview.

------
jflowers45
Building a portfolio of projects that you care about seems like the best way
to go.

Here's an old thread talking about side project ideas you may find useful:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5234692](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5234692)

~~~
compscikid
Thanks for the link. Definitely looks interesting.

So what would be the process here? I build up a portfolio of 2-3 projects, and
then I link them on my resume. Would HR and recruiters bother to look through
them? I guess I'm wondering what a company like Google would do considering
they probably get 20,000 applications a week. Would their recruiter even take
the time to click through my apps even though I have no industry experience?

~~~
lifeisstillgood
Side projects have three uses, HR and recruiters only have one

\- projects give you actual real world development experience, possibly with
others, they provide a genuine validation of your skills, and (if built with
others) give you a network of peers / mentors to work with

\- HR and recruiters just filter out the obvious chaff so the person who is
really going to hire you is not drowning.

Really do not expect HR to hire you, do not expect anyone to beat a path to
your door because you built a better mousetrap - you must sell your mousetrap.
(Which is considerably easier if you build really good mousetraps alongside
well connected mousetrap builders )

The way to sell your services is to a) talk to people already working in the
companies you want to be, b) Identify the companies you want to be hired by c)
politely remind a) of b).

------
Edmond
It would be hard to land a dev job if you have nothing to suggest you can be
productive on day one.

I'll suggest you start looking at other IT jobs where training is available.
Tech support type jobs are a great way to break into the industry while
getting your dev skills to a marketable level.

A 2-3 months goal is not a healthy way to approach it; you wouldn't ask "what
can I do to be a competent doctor or lawyer in the next 2-3 months", the same
goes for any profession. Software development isn't a magic bag of tricks, it
is a skill set that you build up over time.

------
bradhe
A lot of people are going to say "side porejcts," which are great after you
get your foot in the door...but your problem is you can't even find the door.

1\. Network. 2\. Show initiative, be proactive. 3\. Be persistent.

Find a few companies you want to work for and see if you can figure out how to
take one of the hiring managers out for a coffee or whatever. Tell them you
are interested in the company and want to learn about their team and the
projects they work on.

If you don't get hired for that company/team/whatever you will likely get to
nted in the right direction.

~~~
mcardleliam
How does he show initiative? A couple of reasons people work on side projects
are to gain experience and show initiative. While I'd agree that 1, 2, and 3
are good things....I would also say that side projects are a way to achieve
#2.

~~~
bradhe
Totally agree.

------
dustinbrownman
All the advice so far is great. The only thing I'll add is that applying to 10
companies is not enough. I work with one of these coding bootcamps and what
we've found is finding a job has less to do with technical expertise and more
with persistence. The students who applied to the most places got the most
offers sooner.

That said, this finding a job process is hard, and tech companies are
notoriously bad at knowing how to bring on new junior-level people. Keep at
it, and good luck to you!

------
gobengo
I looked at it as a numbers game. I think you should invest the most time in
the next week just applying to more than 10 places. It's not glamorous, but if
you apply to every single startup out there, you'll at least end up with some
options.

for more information:
[http://web.livefyre.com/jobs](http://web.livefyre.com/jobs)

------
mateo411
What programming languages do you know and like?

1.Figure out what language or community you are interested in and go to a
Meetup? Usually there are people who are hiring.

2\. Find a side project and put it on github. This might take a little longer,
but when somebody is going to ask you your experience, you say that you've
completed your degree and you can point them to your github account.

Good luck!

------
grayclhn
1\. You didn't say where you're living right now. If you're still in the city
where you went to university, you might want to try talking to your
professors, explain your situation, and ask them if they have any projects you
could work on for free. Even if they don't, they might have suggestions for
projects that they'd be willing to advise you while you worked on the project
(e.g. meet semi-regularly with you and offer feedback.)

This will be harder to pull off if your self-assessment is inaccurate :).
Start with classes where you got As or really clicked with the prof, then work
your way down. Whenever you talk to someone, ask if he or she knows other
people who would be a good fit for your interests and who you could also talk
to. If they mention someone you don't know personally, ask to be introduced by
email. The usual job search/networking stuff. (As long as you're not obnoxious
about it, this isn't pushy --- most people will be happy to send an email that
will make it easier for you to talk to someone else but might forget to offer
unless you bring it up specifically.)

2\. At the same time, think about what sort of work you want to do. Then start
learning more about that area and try to become part of that "community." Are
there relevant conferences you could go to? Do you have friends who know
people in the field? (This is a rhetorical question; you probably do, even if
you don't know it.) Ask to be introduced, and then ask those people how to get
started in the field. Don't be pushy about it, and try to make it clear that
you're not asking anyone for a job. AND don't ask people for jobs! You'll get
a lot more out of these conversations if everyone views them as
"conversations" and not "job interviews."

2b. If you don't know what sort of work you want to do, maybe do a version of
those steps, but aimed at learning about lots of different aspects of
development.

3\. I would strongly discourage you from spending 2-3 months working on your
own on side-projects. It's too easy to fool yourself, and it's likely that
you'll be back in the same place after 2-3 months spent unproductively. But,
if you have friends in a similar position, and if working with a former
professors isn't possible, it could be useful to work on a project with those
friends. You're likely to learn more about "work" that way than working on
your own, and you're more likely to get something interesting done in a
manageable time frame.

------
alinajaf
Hi there, I get this line of questioning a lot from new programmers in my
local Ruby community so I wrote a little book about it getting your first
programmer job. You can get it for free here: happybearsoftware.com/kickstart-
your-developer-career

~~~
compscikid
Thanks for the link. I just downloaded the book and subscribed. Seems really
interesting.

~~~
alinajaf
Hope you find it at least partly valuable. Please feel free to get in touch if
you have any specific questions.

------
blatherard
A lot depends on your situation:

\- Do you live in an area with many opportunities?

\- Are you willing to relocate?

\- How well-regarded is your school / department?

\- How have you applied to the jobs you've applied to?

\- What kind of work are you particularly interested in and prepared for?

\- Does your school provide any placement help?

~~~
compscikid
\- I'm about 500 miles away from SF in southern california \- Definitely
willing to relocate \- School is a top 25-30 I believe \- Applied using their
online systems \- Hard to say what kind of work I'm interested in because I
haven't really done too much outside of academia. I took a databases and web
applications class and those were definitely enjoyable. \- Unfortunately not.
It's a big university and individuals tend to get lost in the crowd

------
rbrcurtis
You _need_ to do side projects, and put them on github. As a hiring manager,
I'm telling you that people who have a github account with side projects
automatically move to the top of the pile.

------
justifier
great suggestions already.. just a possible addition i'd suggest:

put together a public repo of your coursework, you could even guise it as side
projects by personalising the work

surely your coursework had some practical andor mathematical algo exercises
that can show your understanding of and interest in programming

------
petersouth
check your local city/county governments - governmentjobs.com - they got good
benefits and I always see these type of jobs sitting for months. I don't think
they give a damn if you have any side projects - just that you have CS degree.

------
pcarolan
Go to a code school, you'll meet people and learn the basics. And it's super
fun.

------
lifeisstillgood
I had a similar question from a taxi driver (CS grad!) in Greece last month
and have been putting together an ever-expanding advice column. I will publish
it soon but most of it is as follows

1\. The world is changing in some fundamental and unavoidable ways.

2\. This includes hiring. Previously the broadcast mentality was the only
economically sane approach. Now not so much.

3\. Build a specialism 4\. Build a peer and mentor network 5\. Build a
pipeline of "sales" 6\. Build a corporation mindset, not an employee. 7\.
Build a financial cushion 8\. Build a professional approach

Specialism. Specialisms can be domain (banking, energy), technology (Java,
lisp, mobile) At your stage in your career this is less important than broad
development experience at a good software house.

Peers and mentors. The oft cited approach is to find a largeish OSS project in
an area you care about (do not do games / graphics unless you will sell your
grandma to get into the industry) - and contribute slowly, focusing on getting
high quality code, with tests and documentation in atomic commits. Listen to
the older wiser heads, and keep active on the IM channels. Slowly you will
find people you connect with and do not be afraid to ask "smart questions"

Pipeline of sales - this is the bit you are specifically asking about bu it is
part and parcel of the whole. A pipeline is work that is lined up to commence
she the current gig ends. Even if you are a full time employee, you should be
thinking like this. Firstly identify the twenty (yes there will be twenty)
best software houses in the industry / specialism you care about. Let's say
you love the MooC idea. Look at the folks offering Moocs - coursera, udacity,
khan, and the folks offering services to those Moocs (can't remember right now
but include rice university, Oxbridge, open university) About a days googling
and reading journalism on the area will give you a brief overview. I bet there
is even a datamonitor report out there on this.

Now you have a list of twenty companies that do software in MOOC area. Hit
their websites, LinkedIn and Twitter feeds - find the developers and Dev leads
in these companies. Find those that look interesting - yes interesting. This
is mostly a matter of taste and fit so go with your gut here.

If they are in town offer to take them for a coffee saying "hi, I am a recent
CS grad and looking to work in the MooC industry, would love to get your views
/ insight into the industry and workin practises in exchange for a coffee."

If they are not in town - exactly the same, only offer to send them enough
bitcoins for a latte and do the chat over Skype whilst supping

At this point you are a mile ahead of the competition, but not home and dry.
Always ask "if there are any opportunities going at their place of work, then
do let me know". Don't push, don't mention you are desperate, and never ever
ever lie. If you don't like Moocs find something you do care about - computer
vision monitoring of traffic ? Medical devices ?

Now actually approach those companies that have jobs advertised - and approach
them through HR as normal, But mention when calling HR (always always call to
confirm "they got my email") you had coffee with xxx.

You will stick out in people's memory here. And that's 90% of the game.

Extend your runway. This is hard - work stacking shelves or coding for local
small businesses. Doing this in and around a jobhunt is never easy - but at
minimum make every lunchtime count.

Assume you will be doing this for six months - it took me two years of
upgrading jobs to go from redundant to 200k - and lunchtimes is the key

Keep working this - maybe a conference if you can afford it. And even after
you get a job, keep looking around, making social contacts and OSS contacts.

This is something I call developer contact management - it's an interesting
area.

Anyway

6\. Finance. Don't be a schmuck. Save, invest, clear credit cards. You can't
do much of this, but read the motley fool, put aside 10% if you ever can and
come back to this in three years

7\. Think like a one person corporation. What value do you offer to a business
- what's your USP? If you had to do one thing that would transform your
perception in any company it is oddly - documentation . Make auto generated
docs like pythons sphinx your friend - writing about what you did _and why_
will always end up with you writing sentences like "this approach will save
the company 5% on xxx yearly" \- and matplotlib makes useful graphs

Be professional Never lie (except in salary negotiations and only then about
why you aren't telling them a number first. Read patio11's excellent essay on
this) Always be looking to improve your work, not cut others down Find a good
software house (oddly international Banks are now mostly global software
houses), and or good mentors Focus on the best practises in OSS world - they
are mostly world class - things like mandatory tests, mandatory code reviews
and good developer comms.

Tl;dr

\- buy coffee for devs in a dozen of more companies in an area you care about.
(Can't find a dozen companies - try harder, they are there) \- apply to them
direct through usual channels, but keep back channels open. This is not sneaky
- this is developer contact management. Be open. \- improve your
professionalism - clean code, good tests, peer reviewed and communicated
respectfully. Read uncle bobs _Clean Coder_ (with R on end)

\- keep on doing it. At some point in five years you will find people
respecting your opinion and track record. Then look up "imposter syndrome" and
stop worrying

\- have fun.

------
hivhacks
"Unfortunately I never really spent too much time working on side projects"

This tells me as someone who graduated cs 10+ years ago that you have no
_real_ interest in computers and took it just for the job/to be trendy.
Personally I would not hire you.

That said he's some actual advice. Now that your a recent graduate a company
can hire you full time and get subsidized a large chunk of your pay. This will
only last 6m-1yr, so make it count (do a good job, meet people which is
usually how you get jobs at other companies, work overtime (boo!) and at least
pretend to care about whatever time wasting project they put you on).

Theres a lot more advice I can give, but meh.

~~~
hivhacks
oh yeah and ignore all the stupid advice to "start a blog" and "journal your
development" etc garbage from the social-hacker-marketing-idiots that infect
HN like a plague spreading their opinionated FUD everywhere.

Unless your a skilled and seasoned dev this can only hurt you. Seriously, I
speak from experience as someone who has looked through many resumes and
portfolios.

For better or worse you chose the CS path, not a diploma and not a
code.joke.org. You are on the right path, where as most jobs didn't ask for a
CS degree before most do now. The landscape is LITTERED with hacks and posers
who all seem to have amazing resumes full of amazing synergy, but it's all
poop. People will tell you your dumb for taking 4-5 years to get a legit
degree and make no mistake, the people saying that have none of their own...

~~~
switch007
> Unless your a skilled and seasoned dev this can only hurt you. Seriously, I
> speak from experience as someone who has looked through many resumes and
> portfolios.

Given your experience, could you explain the reasons for it only being
damaging?

