
Starting an ISP: Deploying Fiber - chrishacken
http://chrishacken.com/starting-an-internet-service-provider-part-2-deploying-fiber/
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ireflect
This is the real spirit of entrepreneurship. Hard work, learn quick, make
mistakes, but get it done. With skin in the game rather than burning through
investor money.

I hope to read more of these posts, but I know Chris cannot afford to spend a
lot of time writing them. Nevertheless I'm looking forward to reading part 3
when it is posted in 18 months.

PS slight grammar nitpick: overtime != over time

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chrishacken
Fixed the grammar :p

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M_Bakhtiari
Also fix "I'm clearly a little bias against wireless"

Edit: and "genre's"

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hpcjoe
I enjoyed reading the first part of this last year, and was thinking of it
recently.

As someone who built a bootstrapped company from $40k/y revenue through
$3.5M/year over 14 years, before we were shot in the head by our bank, I was
thrilled to hear that you were doing something like this, but concerned over
the many potholes (pun, I guess, intended) you were going to encounter. One of
the biggest ones that was an eye opener for me early in starting and running
Scalable was the rent seeking behavior of your suppliers. You wrote this as
"Everyone wants a piece of the cake."

Yeah. That. It doesn't get better.

My comments for now are

1) beware of banks and debt instruments. If you can avoid personal guarantees
on loans, then sure. Chances are they will say "no guarantee, no money". That
money is _extremely_ expensive to you. Avoid it like the plague.

2) beware "partners" and people/companies that claim to want to help you. Do
due diligence, deeply, on any organization, including lawyers, accountants,
etc. you might consider using. Most will waste your time.

3) hiring ... is ... critical. This is hard as a small co, as you generally
can't find great people unless you have a pile of cash. You can try to turn
who you can get into great people. But this only works if they are willing and
able to learn.

4) Venture capital. Don't get me started.

I'm rooting for you, and like you, I had every ounce of skin in the game. My
retirement, my daughters college. Everything.

Understand that things don't always work out the way you intend. Starting over
when you are my age is very hard. Consider me as a cautionary tale.

I had a number of folks offer to buy the company. I was too stupid to realize
that one should hit a number of singles and doubles to be able to get enough
of a base to hit homers and grand slams.

Best of luck, and I've subscribed to the site now.

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treis
>I'm rooting for you, and like you, I had every ounce of skin in the game. My
retirement, my daughters college. Everything.

>Understand that things don't always work out the way you intend. Starting
over when you are my age is very hard. Consider me as a cautionary tale.

I'm pulling for him too, but I have the awful feeling that I'm reading the
story of a guy blowing his savings, ruining his credit, and maybe taking mom
down with him.

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chrishacken
We're a profitable company doing over a quarter million a year ATM. We aren't
running fiber on a whim.

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hpcjoe
We were too. Until we needed to expand to meet a customers needs. Then we had
to take on debt.

As I said, a cautionary tale. Call me the ghost of startups past :/

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davidu
Great write-up. Great entrepreneurial tenacity. Would love more insight on the
wireless challenges and how you tackle them? I wonder if a software monitoring
app could detect increased noise and automate channel hopping.

Surely that must exist -- on the other hand, you mentioned the vendors do
everything to lower the BOM, so perhaps they are lazy and this software is
needed. Could be a good OSS project.

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chrishacken
So Mimosa, one of the hardware vendors we use, does actually have this built-
in to their firmware. The issue is, from what I've seen, is that it hops
around too much. It also moves to congested channels sometimes. I'm sure
there's a way to perfect it, we just don't have the time at the moment (I also
don't believe they provide full API access yet, so I'm not even sure if we can
change it without creating an automated UI tool that clicks around on a
browser.)

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davidu
A founder of Mimosa (CTO Jaime) is a friend of mine. I'll try to direct him to
this thread.

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sathackr
I really wanted them to work.

I've tried to get their attention before and it winds up being a constant loop
with Support. The B11s work good enough that it's not worth my time to chase
the last couple hundred Mb/s. I just gave up on the B5.

10 We need you to connect these to the cloud so we can monitor them.

20 Okay we see your monitoring data, we will circle back in a month

30 Hey try this latest firmware update.

40 Are you sure the antennas are aimed right?

50 Try replacing the cables

60 Oh, your chains are unbalanced by 3db, that's the problem.

70 GOTO 20

By about the 3rd iteration we replaced the B5s with Airfiber using the same
antenna and haven't touched it since. I've just accepted that the B11 link
won't hit its advertised speed and quit spending time/money on it since we are
putting in fiber soon.

I pulled the B5s back off the shelf a few months ago just to see if maybe
newer firmware would fix, and once again a tiny bit of interference dropped a
link that was doing 1.2Gb/s to 7mb/s or less.

I'm testing some B24s in a real-world link in a couple of weeks. I hope they
do what they're supposed to.

Feel free to contact me via email -- my username at gmail

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dboreham
As a one-time dabbler in the local ISP business I found this fascinating but I
also wanted to scream "Nooooo...stop" as I read! There are contractors who
spend every day digging up streets, laying conduit. FFS use one of them to do
the job rather than messing around looking for a Bobcat with the right Diamond
saw attachment. Another thing I'd worry about is that there may be fiber in
the ground or on poles already in this area -- currently not being used
because there isn't a big enough market for service. In our town I am asked
from time to time if the city should pay to "drop a fiber conduit in a trench
they already dug for some other purpose, because this town has no fast
Internet". I take them outside, point up at the fiber bundles running all
around town on poles...

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chrishacken
I’m already well aware there’s fiber on poles here. The difference is, their
network isn’t built to support FTTH, it’s built to support a few larger
enterprises that are willing to pay $3,000/m for a circuit. Name one person
that doesn’t want fiber internet. Saying there isn’t a big enough market for
service when literally every single household and business purchases internet
is ridiculous.

We already have 60% of the street we just cut up signed up for service.

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rashomon
Absolutely true. I have property about 30 miles north of WB and Frontier told
me they can't get a technician out to replace my service until January.

It would be faster for me to crawl on the ground to the nearest PoP and plugin
to a GPON port then it would be for me to wait for them.

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dboreham
Yes (I have my own version of this story that involves drilling holes in a
mountain top for a tower, pouring concrete, deploying my own solar power
system, microwave links, ...) however note that Frontier are making money by
not providing you service. There is no mythical better ISP who will spool
fiber 30 miles out to you, and will then sit back making money. They will go
broke.

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INTPenis
I was recently at BornHack2018, a small security camp for the 3rd summer this
year held on the island of Bornholm.

The organisers also run BornFiber who are connecting the entire island with
optical broadband.

BornFiber is a good example of how anyone with the right skill can start a
fiber provider here in the nordics.

I'm glad to see this philosophy being adopted by the US.

However. Once they have fiber they still need some ISP and that's where the
national ISPs come in. Thankfully we have plenty of options here but I hear
things aren't as good in the US.

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rashomon
If only they were on the other side of Denmark. I wanted to bring some fiber
to a small German island called Insel Fohr.

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amazon_not
So what's stopping you? :)

Just get some neighbors together and go for it.

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z3t4
When deploying fiber, always lay down 10x what you need. Or calculate one
fiber duct for each property on the way. So when more subscribers want to get
connected you just have to dig at one point, cut one of the unused ducts and
join it.

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jdhn
As someone whose only entrepreneurial idea is to open an ISP, this is a great
read. I'd like to know how the councilman and the director of operations
helped out. Did they expedite permits, waive fees, or something else?

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danShumway
It's really encouraging to see an effort like this happening in the
Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area.

Having lived in Northeastern PA at various points in my life, I can attest
that Internet speeds there have always kind of lagged behind. I knew people in
more rural parts of the area who had basically zero wired internet options at
all. It kind of just becomes something you learn to deal with.

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Jgrubb
Are there any grants or any kind of city money for work like what you're
doing? I would think towns like Wilkes-Barre and Scranton would be bending
over backwards to try and attract the sorts of businesses that would rely on
infrastructure like what you're putting down. That you have to do all this
with your own money and credit seems really wrong.

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chrishacken
You would think that. Unfortunately many/most people care more about their
precious roads than they do about infrastructure.

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sigstoat
are roads not infrastructure? that transports food, and medicine?

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rashomon
In the article, he's referring to people complaining about a 2-minute increase
in their commute time for something that can absolutely benefit the community.

The short-sightedness is astounding.

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jaytaylor
Inspiring story. Will be interesting to see what Chris is capable of if / when
he's able to get access to more capital.

Are there VCs who invest in this sort of enterprise? The odds of getting a
positive return seem favorable compared to many of the currently trendy
software-only startups out there.

Also, I like Chris' tagline:

    
    
        Create value, not excuses.

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amazon_not
No, the returns aren't there to make infrastructure investments attractive to
VCs.

A software startup can exit at 10x, an infrastructure investment won't.

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chrishacken
I think the key difference is that infrastructure is more of a long term
investment. We can return 10x’s but it’ll likely take a little longer than a
software company would. However, i can make the case that we have a higher
guarantee of delivering than a software company can.

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amazon_not
"A little longer" == 25 years if your returns are 10% and grow 10% annually.

Other than than all true. Telecoms infrastructure is an utility play, steady
long term returns. Something pension funds like, but they on the other hand
don't like risky startups, so it's a challenge to get funded until you are
established and have a solid track record.

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jiveturkey
200 subscribers with 90% coverage of a town-sized city (40k population)?
sounds absolutely horrible.

but I really came here to comment on what I think is a financial error: rent
vs buy cost. yeah, it seems more expensive to rent if you consider long term
ownership of equipment, but this is very misguided. maintaining, repairing,
insuring and just storing heavy equipment that you use rarely is just not the
way to go. it's cheaper to rent.

> nothing to show for the nearly $10,000 in rental fees

you have no long term expenses to show for it. that's a wonderful tradeoff.

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timeimp
>We just launched in our 2nd city; Scranton, PA.

That's not... _the_ Scranton, PA is it?

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chrishacken
That it is.

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scarface74
So what is his competitive advantage over the incumbent providers - the cable
company and the phone provider?

Is he offering service in areas they aren’t?
[https://www.broadbandsearch.net/service/pennsylvania/scranto...](https://www.broadbandsearch.net/service/pennsylvania/scranton)

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seanc
If it's anything like the smaller ISP's in my area, his advantages are:

\- Vastly superior customer service

\- Simpler contracts; straight fee-for-service without any bullshit

\- Likely better price overall

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scarface74
_From my real-world testing, you shouldn 't really expect to get more than
30-40 Mbps down and 5 Mbps up in a typical scenario. If you're competing with
DSL,_

For the most part, he isn’t competing with DSL. He is competing with cable. It
looks like Comcast does service the area.

Another thing that stands out was that the article mentioned he was paying
$1000 for a “< 1Gpbs” Fiber line.

From the link on what’s available in Scranton, it looks like Comcast also
offers 1Gbps downloads.

He also said that he has 200 customers - mostly business.

I don’t see how this makes sense from an investment standpoint to offer
service in an area that doesn’t appear to be underserved.

I’m definitely no fan of Comcast, but their business internet service is
straightforward. If I’m running a business, the cost difference between
Comcast and Loop is neglible.

Personally, I’m glad to have the much better, cheaper, gigabit service from
AT&T, but I would grin and bare Comcast again if I had too.

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KAMSPioneer
I don't have an answer for your question, but I believe you've misquoted the
article. It was <$1000 for a 1Gbps circuit, not $1000 for a <1Gbps circuit.

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seibelj
Have you ever tried WeFunder or similar crowdfunded mechanisms to raise money?
I would invest a few thousand at generous terms to support you guys and the
mission, and I’m sure many others would too.

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gammatrigono
Can't imagine it would be worth the investor liability/risk for a couple $k.

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seibelj
It’s crowdfunding. He would raise hundreds of thousands or millions.

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amazon_not
Title III crowdfunding is limited to $1M.

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robertgaal
Thanks for sharing this! As someone in a fiberless city (Amsterdam), with a
monopolistic local provider that's unwilling to expand, this is inspiring.

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amazon_not
What happened to Citynet? They were supposed to wire the whole of Amsterdam
with open access fiber. Did they stop after the Reggefiber/KPN acquisition?

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rashomon
The cost for micro trenching can be upwards of $200k a building in Manhattan.
I would assume dealing with sunken homes, collapsed PoE's and NIMBY folks
would make it prohibitively expensive.

But I have no idea why they stopped.

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amazon_not
Manhattan?

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jnaperski
Great work so far Chris! Keep up the great work!

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neeewsuh
how do you deal with the legal aspect of running an ISP? What can the small
players do?

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ken
> [Wireless] Speeds are competitive with cable (for now).

Latency, or just bandwidth?

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sathackr
I know of a few WISPs that have real network engineers behind their systems
and have built reliable networks. One of them has several thousand users and
multi-gigabit services.

People are jumping every day from cable to them for both speed and
reliability.

Most WISPs are started by the local computer repair shop by someone who things
that configuring a Linksys router is network engineering. They are plagued
with reliability issues mostly of their own creation. I'm not knocking the
people, they are filling a need and doing it 'good enough'.

If you build it right, they will come.

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milankragujevic
My backup WISP link is pretty terrible, and does up to 10 Mbps, barely 5 Mbps
most of the time, even thought there is clear line of sight to the base
station antenna, and using Ubiquiti gear, probably because the people are
either inexperienced or overselling. 4G gets me 300 Mbps (now up to 300 GB for
$9/mo, or unlimited data for $25) in a village of 904 people. (though I use
two different antennas and connect to two base stations to obtain maximum
speed from LTE with carrier and link aggregation.

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kiallmacinnes
I love reading these kinds of stories.

Keep them coming Chris, if you can :)

