
They Said You Could Leave Scooters Anywhere, Then the Repo Men Struck Back - CPLX
https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/24/20696405/dockless-scooters-share-repo-men-repossessor-lawsuit-tow-yard-lime-bird-lyft-uber-razor
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GhostVII
_“Their app specifically says you can ride it ‘anywhere’ and leave it
‘anywhere,’” Borelli says as he pushes a Bird scooter through the Pacific
Beach neighborhood. If he sounds slightly bitter, it’s only because he owns a
bike shop nearby and believes that dockless scooter companies are trying to
steal his customers._

 _But to Borelli, it seemed that the scooter industry was really trying to
replace bicycles. He threw the offending scooters in the dumpster, but they
were quickly replaced by more scooters_

So a bike shop owner didn't like the competition, and decided to start
stealing scooters and throwing them in dumpsters? I have sympathy for people
who don't like the scooters on the sidewalk (I'm one of those people), but
don't act like you are taking some kind of honest businessman just trying to
help the public. This whole thing is just a way to justify eliminating
competition for this guys bike shop. Started out throwing them in dumpsters,
and moved to "impounding" them and issuing them tickets (not sure why he
thinks he has the authority to do that) to try and justify it.

~~~
citrablue
I live in San Diego, and have followed this with great interest. From my
understanding, they are only doing this for scooters that are parked
illegally: e.g. on the shop owners property, blocking vehicle access, etc.

It's very interesting, because the riders don't have an incentive to park
appropriately (and that is sometimes a guessing game -- street signs don't
exist for where you can park scooters legally). However, I'd warrant that it's
the sheer carelessness of riders who cause this issue.

Without people like these repo folks, there would be no disincentive for
either the riders or the scooter companies. The riders don't care (and making
them care would hurt the companies' growth/user retention -- part of the
appeal is that "drop anywhere" thing).

In short, I see no problem with this. We allow tow truck companies to do the
same, with private citizens as the victims. This only forces the scooter
companies to solve the problem they created.

~~~
GhostVII
I think the incentive should be to call the police and have them impound it in
a legal way, or just move it off of their property, not have a private party
come and steal the scooters. Just because something is on your property, does
not mean you can legally take it - if you park in my driveway, I can't just
steal your car.

~~~
negativez
Replace "steal" with "call a registered tow company" and you can do exactly
that - have someone remove an improperly-placed item from your property.
Cities solved the problem of improperly-parked cars by creating the entire
"towing" concept.

Police aren't a service for junk removal, they are for holding guns. You hire
a moving company to remove junk and you get the police to come hold guns if
the junk-leaver threatens to do you harm because of same.

~~~
ksaj
Impounding isn't the same thing as throwing them into a dumpster.

Likewise, unless it is registered as a vehicle (and I doubt these scooters
are), impounding probably wouldn't happen, and there is no law against tossing
abandoned "garbage" that appears on your property.

Interesting. Precedence will eventually be set and then we'll know.

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mgamache
So the Scooter companies business model is built on a gap in local regulations
allowing them to leave there products anywhere without recourse and they are
now upset with another business model that found a gap in their gap? Get me
some popcorn.

~~~
quaquaqua1
Not that I am a Bird defender, but people dump things all of the time.

Go to the store, buy a bike, get a flat eventually, "screw it im chucking it
in the field over there"

Now definitely the rate of people dumping rented bird scooters is higher than
everything else, but the real issue is the behavior of riders for not at least
trying to be tidy in storing the scooter.

~~~
mgamache
Sure, but that's a person deciding to litter instead of using the trash for a
product they no longer want to use. In this case littering is part of the
normal use of the product.

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grumio
Couldn't the scooter companies negotiate with businesses and get permission?
Maybe pay businesses to install docking stations. The scooters get advertising
when people see the station. The restaurant or hotel gets advertisment on the
scooter app as a designated docking station. And the business can tow
unwelcome scooters not in the dock. Just like they are allowed to tow cars.

Seems like the scooter startups think they're special and permits and
regulations don't apply to them.

~~~
negativez
They can't because their business is fundamentally built on the "leave
anywhere" promise to their customers, who are the ones that actually leave the
scooters illegally.

There's just no customer-acceptable way of disincentivizing their bad behavior
and unlike parked cars, the scooters can be trivially moved from "legal" to
"illegal" parking by a single person, which means that the customer may not
even be at fault.

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stcredzero
_Their first client was Borelli’s frustrated landlord. From there, more
business followed._

 _“We did not seek anybody out, those property owners came to us,” Heinkel
says._

I looked at one of the pictures and counted 19 scooters. It's hard for me not
to think that this is an externality that the scooter company should have
thought of and planned for, to preserve goodwill.

~~~
Technetium_Hat
Based on their (lack of) interactions with local governments, goodwill does
not seem to be one of their chief concerns.

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ericmcer
It seems like everyone here is in the wrong? A service that moves scooters to
proper locations is necessary but these two are clearly in it for the money.
It would be easier, cheaper and better for everyone involved if they just
moved the scooters to the sidewalk. Holding them ransom behind razorwire is
just an attempt to get money while hiding behind a thin veil of public
service.

Lime/Bird meanwhile trying to get their property back while minimizing
potential PR nightmares that spotlight the harm they cause.

Standard case of humans being humans and trying to get money while maintaining
the moral high ground.

~~~
zrobotics
So how is them 'being in it for the money' any different from any other type
of repossessor? I'm not aware of any tow truck operators that do the work as a
charity or public service. If the scooter companies had any sort of plan to
reburse people for moving the scooters to appropriate parking places, then I
would feel differently, but AFAIK none of the scooter companies operates such
a program.

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Simulacra
I side with the scooter companies. I think these guys are exploiting a gray
area in the law and shaking down the companies, and should be stopped. GPS
should be able to show it a scooter was in a legit place or not. If it was,
then their argument goes out the window. It just smells too much like theft.

~~~
l4yao
GPS may not be accurate enough, especially in urban areas. And the current
geofence isn't detailed enough. For example: it doesn't account for things
like a wheelchair ramp from a private property intersecting with a public
walkway.

In San Francisco, scooters were picked up by the city and impounded. I don't
see why it's unfair for private property owners to do the same.

~~~
negativez
Anyone who's parked a car often in dense areas knows the distance between
legal and illegal parking is as small as the width of the bumper you stuck
into the fire lane.

GPS just can't help with that.

------
alanning
The end of the article sums up the repossessors' argument quite nicely:

“If you take all the BS that they’ve thrown out, and you take our BS, and you
take it down, it’s a very simple concept,” Heinkel says. “They have taken
their stuff and placed it on someone else’s property without permission.”

“Now that’s them, and here’s us. We’re two guys who went to the property
owners and got permission with that property owner to remove that stuff off
their property. That’s all it is.”

------
van2z
So in america, if something is on my private property, it becomes mine?

It sounds like the only reason they can hold the scooters "ransom" is because
they were found on private property.

~~~
GhostVII
Even if it is on private property, that doesn't mean you can take it. If you
park on someone else's driveway, they don't get to take your car.

~~~
t0mas88
But they do get to have it towed from their property, and you pay the fees for
that right?

~~~
GhostVII
If the police tow it, I'm sure the owner of the car would have to pay the
fees. If the property owner tows it, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't (although
it may vary by state). At least in Toronto, you are allowed to tow a car from
your property, but not charge the owner for the tow [1].

[1]
[https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/mu...](https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/municipal-
licensing-and-standards/business-licensing-and-regulatory-services/licensing-
services/vehicles-towed-from-private-property-towing-fees.html)

~~~
theandrewbailey
...unless the property owner has posted signs with the law.

~~~
GhostVII
It says if they have posted signs with the law, they can contact the police to
issue a ticket (and tow, presumably). The formatting is a bit messed up, but
you are required to both have the signs, and contact the police, you can't
just tow it without calling the police, and require the owner to pay for the
tow.

~~~
querulous
typically, the requirement is that you register the tow with the police (after
the fact), not that you ask their permission before you tow

