
How engineers can stand out from the applicant pool - lynnetye
https://www.keyvalues.com/blog/how-engineers-can-stand-out-from-the-applicant-pool
======
mathatoms
This article seems to have an assumption that companies have this huge pool of
qualified candidates applying for jobs and you, as an applicant, just need to
show that little extra initiative to beat out the other applicants. As someone
who has reviewed mountains of resumes for a large company, this assumption
doesn't match my experience.

In my experience there is this huge pool of unqualified applicants applying
for every job no matter what the actual job requirements are. The applicants
that got a call for an interview 1) looked at the technologies listed in the
job requirements and 2) put their experience with these technologies on their
resume.

Also important, once you get called in for an interview make sure you can
answer the most basic questions about what is on your resume. If you put Linux
experience on your resume make sure you can explain how to list the contents
of a directory from the command line. If you put MySQL experience on your
resume make sure you can explain how to get a count of the total number of
rows in a table.

Are there really companies out there where the difference between getting an
offer and not getting an offer is spending a few hours making a bespoke
"please hire me" website?

~~~
ravenstine
> In my experience there is this huge pool of unqualified applicants applying
> for every job no matter what the actual job requirements are. The applicants
> that got a call for an interview 1) looked at the technologies listed in the
> job requirements and 2) put their experience with these technologies on
> their resume.

I think this is a result of the (frankly) BS practice employers have been
using for years of inflating the qualifications required for positions. I
can't count on one hand how many postings I've seen for mid-level developer
roles that require 5+ years of experience writing Python, C++, C#, Java, and
JavaScript; oh yeah, you've also got to know Angular and React, and "bonus" if
you know Vue.

Even before I became a developer(I first tried to get into animation), the
advice from older folks and career specialists was to "just apply to all the
positions you want even if you don't meet all the qualifications", and I'd bet
good money that a lot of people are still hearing this advice from various
channels.

Now that everyone is just shotgun applying to everything, the advantage is
largely gone. But because everyone is doing it, and individual must do so or
they'll be drowned out in signal noise.

~~~
BigJono
This is exactly what I try not to do when hiring.

I don't want someone that's built a bloody todo list in Angular, React and
Vue. I want someone that's generated revenue by building quality software in
_one_ of them.

I think one of the biggest technical advantages you can get over your
competition is to hire good specialists. Almost everywhere I've worked
(especially anywhere HR or non-tech people are involved in the hiring) has
just hoovered up the "jack of all trades" types and I suspect their tech has
suffered for it.

~~~
marklgr
Jack-of-all-trades come in all shapes and forms; some are just average in many
things, while some others are quite good in some areas, competent in some
others and can also get up to speed in other parts if necessary. In small
teams, these profiles are very useful.

~~~
BigJono
Yes but nobody considers the cost/benefit of having that over a specialist
with the same amount of experience.

What takes longer? A full-stack guy trying to figure out how to work around
some obscure front-end quirk (like the restrictions on overflow-x/y resulting
in unexpected computed values, or the fact you can't transition to or from
computed heights?) or a front-end specialist learning some basic dev-ops, or
how to change a few Django models?

"Building something" in a language/ecosystem should be easy for any competent
dev. I've never touched Obj-C or Swift in my life, and if you asked me to go
release an iPhone app on the app store in my spare time in 3 weeks I'd be 100%
confident that I can do it; but if you asked me to go and take a job as a
senior iOS dev straight after that, I wouldn't even be confident to put myself
forward for it. I probably wouldn't even put iOS on my resume.

I think as a senior tech person involved in the hiring process, I should be
doing a better job of identifying exactly what I need and finding the right
person than just going on the hunt for 6 "good devs" and hoping everything
falls into place.

------
lordnacho
Boring answer...

The only thing that really does stand out is when you get a CV that says the
person has done all the things that your org wants to do. (Yes that's bad for
recent grads.)

Hired a couple of people recently, and guess what. They tick all the boxes.
Worked for firms that did low latency cpp, wrote apps that did what we wanted
ours to do, and using the tools that we wanted.

From the other side I got an offer a few months back, and same deal. I ended
up not taking it, but it was just "have you written xyz kind of code for
another firm?" And the questions were all geared towards that. And since I
ticked all the boxes, everything went forward.

If your CVs don't contain that unicorn who's done the exact thing that you
need, you have a lot of awkward conversations. Is Minotaur close enough? What
about this other language, it's pretty similar, right? Maybe the OS isn't such
a big deal for this project. They'll get used to finance, it's not that
different from...

~~~
dclusin
Isnt HFT implemented on FPGAs these?

~~~
ddorian43
Both. Big boys fpga, other ones cpu. Source: some tweet/comments.

~~~
physguy1123
A lot of relatively fixed-function peripherals tend towards hardware, but the
industry is moving away from pure speed (alternative interpretation: pure
speed people failed) and for many strategies software can be more than fast
enough and the flexibility benefits are worth it. That's not to say there
aren't pure hardware strategies, but most of them operate in tandem with
latency-sensitive software strategies as well.

------
WhompingWindows
Standing out from the applicant pool is best done by knowing someone within
the organization. You can create targeted websites or individualized plans for
improvement of the business, but in my experience, many companies simply give
preference to recommendations from current employees. Does HR really have the
expertise to go through all these personalized, technical solutions? Probably
not, but if they are told by a current engineer that you have the skills and
personality, they will fast track you into an interview. No wonder companies
give referral bonuses - they'd much rather do that than wade through a sea of
resumes, with hard to replicate and verify information.

------
vemv
What undeniably would stand out, and speak for itself is a large portfolio of
open-source contributions to widely-used projects.

No personal projects. No libraries no-one-else uses. Real 1K+ stars projects
in the niche/ecosystem you are targeting (Elixir? React Native?).

Go for breadth rather than depth. Demonstrate you can get 20 PRs merged to 20
different top-tier projects, adapting to their needs, standards, understanding
their codebases of course. Interacting with them in a polite, optimal manner.

Mental exercise: think of one such contributor. Would you hire her? Of course
you would, in a blink. No CV needed.

I know it's easier said than done, but executed well, it will be level-up
whichever salary you were making previously.

(what to PR? Simply solve one of the many issues listed in a given project's
tracker)

~~~
jmcphers
> Demonstrate you can get 20 PRs merged to 20 different top-tier projects,
> adapting to their needs...

This would be very impressive... but would also require _months_ of effort. I
don't know any successful engineers who have that much time on their hands.

~~~
vemv
It's not uncommon to have a 'dev sabbatical'.

Neither is the notion of investing in one's skills beyond on-the-fly self-
learning.

Some devs are able to save quite some money, or to work far less than 8h/d.
I'd invite those to reinvest that time/money. Perhaps you can do it once every
few years and ensure a truly remarkable career.

This might become more and more important as the market gets saturated with
bootcampers, hustlers, or simply people who are junior today but will compete
with you tomorrow.

~~~
krageon
It might not be uncommon in your neck of the woods, but where I exist this
isn't common at all. Everyone has to work, and the luxury of being able to
save "quite some money" (or work far less, which is more or less the same
thing) definitely doesn't go to people who I'd call a "dev" (and not say, a
consultant or upper management).

------
anon1094
The reality is that PDF resumes are dead. There are too many applicants for
you to stand out that way if you don't already have some kind of "in" like
knowing someone at the company.

So what can you do? You can create targeted websites like suggested in the
article, but that takes a long time and likely isn't worth the effort. I've
gotten ignored many times doing this.

Here's what has worked best:

1.Skip the resume even if the company insists on it.

2\. Find the hiring manager's email (or anyone involved in hiring)

3\. Send a well put together cover letter email selling your skills with
concrete links to projects you can show. GitHub, Codepen, Blog links work very
well here.

Here's a blog post focusing on remote jobs that I put together that goes into
more depth in case you're interested: [https://remoteleads.io/blog/proposals-
that-win-remote-freela...](https://remoteleads.io/blog/proposals-that-win-
remote-freelance-clients/)

Why does this work? You're reaching an real human and have a higher chance of
getting looked at for your skills instead of getting your resume scanned by a
resume-reading machine. This works well when you don't already have
connections with the company.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
I do not agree with parts of #3. There needs to be a different way. You
_cannot_ require developers to maintain github projects in there spare time.
This truly will weed out amazing developers who have families, who prefer to
have non dev hobbies, who volunteer a lot of their spare time, etc... You
know, people who might actually be _interesting_ to work with.

~~~
sakuronto
I don't disagree with your point, but it's very rude of you to dismiss
developers who find coding _fun_ as 'uninteresting'.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Plenty of people find coding fun but don't have github accounts or do much
coding after work. This is especially true if your work is very interesting.
You find that you have less itching to scratch so to speak. I love coding. But
I don't feel I need to do any outside of work because I love the projects I
get to do at work.

But yes, people who code all the time can be interesting. I just don't want
the industry to demand we all do it.

------
scarface74
Easy - don't play the game.

I never apply for a job blind or through an applicant tracking system. I
always use local recruiters that I've nurtured relationships with.

I also don't negotiate salary. I know my market and tell the recruiters up
front how much I want to make. They don't waste my time submitting me to
companies where I am above the salary range.

~~~
swozey
So you don't negotiate salary but you're completely fine giving 10-20% of your
possible salary to the recruiters?

~~~
scarface74
That's not how it works. The company pays the recruiters commission. It
doesn't come out of your salary at least not for a full time job. I know
market rates for my area. I can guarantee you I'm not underpaid by 20%.

For a contract job, where the company pays the recruiting agency and they pay
you, yeah you can get a larger hourly rate by going straight to the company.

~~~
sokoloff
As a hiring manager, can confirm. I am selective about roles I open up to
external recruiter submissions, but those that I do, I am entirely indifferent
between candidate A who was sourced internally (no additional fee to me) and
candidate B who was submitted by an external. If candidate B has any edge over
candidate A, I'm not going to even think about the 20-33% of first year comp
when making the decision.

~~~
zachrose
Can you explain that a bit more? What if candidate A was sourced internally,
had a slight edge over B, and wanted 20-33% more in pay?

~~~
itronitron
The salary would be recurring annually so 20% higher salary is a bigger cost
than a one shot commission

~~~
sokoloff
Largely this.

I welcome employees who know/can articulate their value and negotiate in good
faith to take home in salary roughly 1/4 to 2/5 of the value they create for
our company every year.

That doesn’t extend to paying cash bonuses because our in-house team found
them nor to pay cash in lieu of relocation benefits just because they already
live here.

To answer GP’s question where candidate A had a slight edge but wanted 20-30%
more, first I probably wouldn’t know that at decision time (it’s not like I’m
shopping cars where I can go pretty far down the negotiation path with two
Honda dealers and one Toyota dealer or an Amazon purchase where I can use
camelcamelcamel or something; these are human beings contemplating upending
their lives in some way). Second, talent is the key element of this game.
Candidate A has a (perceived) edge and I’m going to pursue that candidate
first, realizing that the pay is capped by some proper fraction of the
business value they can create. Where it’s a software IC role, I will likely
pursue both A and B individually, intending to hire both.

Where it’s a one-off role (I’m not going to hire two CISOs or two tribe leads
for one tribe), I pursue A first. If I hear “I want more salary/shares because
you’re not paying a recruiter”, that’s a terrifically strong signal that maybe
they’re not going to create as much business value as I thought because
they’re prone to thinking shallowly or outright wrongly about what matters to
the business. “I want more money because of my X, Y, and Z
talents/skills/ability/dedication/other options”? Great, I’m interested; let’s
talk about that.

~~~
scarface74
I agree, I've never asked for hiring bonus from an employer because I didn't
go through a recruiter - I've never had that opportunity and I wouldn't
anyway. It feels tacky. I might ask for a slightly higher salary thinking they
have more wiggle room because they didn't go through a recruiter, but I
wouldn't mention that as a rationale.

I've never been in a position to ask for the highest salary in the range. Any
job for which I would be able to ask for top dollar would imply that I meet
all of the qualifications perfectly. That would mean that I won't have the
opportunity to grow and after two years, my resume and skill set won't look
any better than when I first started. I've always aimed for jobs that are a
slight stretch, meaning I have all of the "must haves" but not many of the
"nice to haves".

That gives me the opportunity to be exposed to new to me technologies.

------
shanev
“I also personally look for engineers with a collaborative attitude rather
than a competitive one.” -Leah Culver

This is a highly underrated attribute. Crucial to getting anything done
effectively in a team.

~~~
paladin314159
This is an interesting discussion. I don't believe collaborative and
competitive are actually at odds with each other, think professional sports
teams as the most obvious example. Yes, you absolutely want collaborative
players who will maximize the potential of the team, but you sure as hell want
them to be competitive too.

I'm personally a very competitive person, and I love being part of a team that
wins. The collaborative vs competitive mindset feels like a false dichotomy to
me.

~~~
lynnetye
Good point. I'm also extremely competitive, but I like competing on teams more
than I do as an individual. However, I've worked w/ people who are competitive
with their peers/colleagues/coworkers. These are people that I would not hire.
I _think_ this is what Leah and @shanev are describing?

~~~
paladin314159
That makes sense, and I figured as much.

I just like to make a pitch for competitiveness being a positive trait
whenever this comes up!

------
busterarm
The pool of founders spoken to was pretty homogenous. I would have liked a
wider perspective.

~~~
justboxing
Yes. And 100% of them are female co-founders. Ain't nothing wrong with that,
but it stood out to me.

~~~
sskates
An interesting question for me would be if it had been all male co-founders.
Would that have stood out?

~~~
philangist

        In [218]: female_founders = 0.17 # https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/19/in-2017-only-17-of-startups-have-a-female-founder/
    
        In [219]: male_founders = 0.83
    
        In [220]: female_founders ** 6
        Out[220]: 2.413756900000001e-05
    
        In [221]: male_founders ** 6
        Out[221]: 0.3269403733689999
    

It wouldn't have stood out to me.

------
optimuspaul
Lot of great insights there I think. I especially like Leah's "When an
engineer is a fan of the product, they stand out." That is something I look
for in candidates, passion for the work they will be doing.

~~~
dvtrn
_That is something I look for in candidates, passion for the work they will be
doing._

How do you differentiate passion for the work they'll be doing from a complete
willingness and competency to do the job because they've got to put food on
the table?

I'm not _passionate_ about programming (and _certainly_ not _passionate_ about
freight logistics), I just happen to be very good at it, I like my
coworkers..oh and it pays the rent and tuition.

~~~
kenhwang
I like looking for _passion for problem solving_. The problems just usually
require using programming as a tool. I'd like to believe the product is also
solving a real problem.

The metaphor I like to use is, I'm looking for a carpenter that likes building
structures, not a carpenter that likes using hammers.

But that's just what I'm looking for, and what I believe many engineering-
centric orgs are looking for. There are definitely companies out there that
just want another assembly robot in their software factory assembly line and
plenty of people happy to take that role.

------
axoltl
Seems like a lot of the answers boil down to "build a portfolio". I don't
think the people that have the time to build that portfolio have a lot to
worry about. Sure, they may not get to work at that one company they want to
work at but they're pretty much guaranteed some type of employment.

What about the people that don't have that time though? The people that may
have spent time in evening classes learning how to program. How do they stand
out?

~~~
nicoburns
Take a job at a 'less good' company and build up your CV by working?

------
lr4444lr
Other than Leah Culver's line "I also personally look for engineers with a
collaborative attitude rather than a competitive one", I wouldn't say any of
this is good advice.

------
torvald
I wonder if Nina got that job in Airbnb.

~~~
busterarm
She did not. She got interviews at other companies and landed at Upwork for a
while.

~~~
dabockster
So she started freelancing?

~~~
busterarm
No she had a role in "Growth" at Upwork.

------
z3t4
It's impossible to get past HR screening unless you're an CV expert. They look
at things like paper texture, inc, font, formatting, spelling etc, because
that's what they are good at. They don't know anything about C++ or Haskel.
You need to get around HR and talk directly to someone that can actually tell
if you are qualified or not. The best bet is if you have someone on the inside
that can voice for you. Or get their attention somehow so that they reach out
to you.

------
z3t4
HR tries to match the stacks, eg they need someone that knows
SQL+JSON+Java+JavaScript+Andoird+Linux+Git+WinAPI+HTML+CSS, but then they get
an application who has C++,Haskel,OOP,FP,C,Linux,Sysadmin,DBA,SQL they will
throw it away because it doesn't match.

Now I did some math and with 1000 techs, in stacks of 10, you would get 2.6 *
10^26 combinations. So it's impossible to find a candidate that will match!

------
neilwilson
In a world short of talent it is the employers that have to stand out in the
pool. And they don't do that by playing frat games with applicants.

------
BasHamer
doesn't the answer boil down to marketing?

It is talking about expressing shared values (trough open source and
mentoring) value (personal accomplishment) and warm fuzzies (being a fan of
the company, product, etc.)

As to how to do that; learn it or hire someone. As you likely only have your
hours to sell I'd say the case for outsourcing becomes compelling.

------
a_imho
Stock answers, all of them are expected in any given interview.

Want to stand out? Say you are actually interested in earning money for your
work, a truly novel idea nowadays.

~~~
WJW
Most employers are not actually all that interested in what _you want_, but in
what _you can provide them_. If necessary, they will pay for that. A great
many applicants that come by our company have as motivation "to develop
myself" and similar. That won't get many employers excited. If you come by and
tell us: "I have a great idea to make/save you X euro/month (and are
credible)", that would make employers much more likely to hire you.

Imagine if a grocer told you: I want you to buy this cucumber because it would
make me feel great about my sales skills. Would you buy the cucumber just to
do the grocer a favor? Now compare that to a grocer who tells you: "These
cucumbers are delicious, healthy and will make you feel great about yourself
for eating healthy food." IMO, the second grocer is much more likely to sell a
lot of cucumbers, because he focuses on what his customers want instead of
what he himself wants. The same is true for selling your labor.

~~~
skookumchuck
In answer to "where do you see yourself in 5 years" question, I once told a
potential employer that I would be CEO of his company.

I didn't get an offer :-)

~~~
GoToRO
I know somebody who did the same, and he ended up being the boss of a plant.
Not the CEO, but still a lot of responsibility. And not from the start, he
worked on all factory machines first and slowly he was given more
responsibilities. It all depends on what they are looking for. This company
looked for a local to replace the expats. It was a match.

------
3uclid
Not trying to be inflammatory here, but is there a reason why all the co-
founders are women?

~~~
mywittyname
The author is a woman, so a reasonable explanation is many of her co-founder
acquaintances are also woman and, as such, were more likely to respond to the
author's inquiry.

