
Ask HN: Is it time to start an apolitical, decentralized version of WHO? - PierredeFermat
There has been a lot of red flags on the WHO recently, from misreporting data [1, 2] to confusing guidance on masks [3] to the controversial case of Taiwan [4, 5].<p>Does anyone here feel that such bureaucracies wouldn&#x27;t&#x2F;shouldn&#x27;t survive long? And that they could be easily replaced by an efficiently-operated, software-powered non-profit (something similar to Our World in Data)?<p>One starting point that I could get couple universities and hospitals behind is a simple portal for any medical staff around the world to report severe flu or whatnot cases (with anonymized record&#x2F;evidence) that they suspect to be a stem for a new disease outbreak.<p>Would anyone here be interested in helping to build such initiative? Or any thoughts? Suggestions? Counter-arguments?<p>--<p>[1] https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ourworldindata.org&#x2F;coronavirus-source-data#world-health-organization-who-situation-reports-our-previous-data-source<p>[2] https:&#x2F;&#x2F;edition.cnn.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;02&#x2F;14&#x2F;asia&#x2F;coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk&#x2F;index.html<p>[3] https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blogs.bmj.com&#x2F;bmj&#x2F;2020&#x2F;03&#x2F;11&#x2F;whos-confusing-guidance-masks-covid-19-epidemic&#x2F;<p>[4] https:&#x2F;&#x2F;in.reuters.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;health-coronavirus-taiwan-who&#x2F;taiwan-says-who-not-sharing-coronavirus-information-it-provides-pressing-complaints-idINKBN21H1BS<p>[5] https:&#x2F;&#x2F;edition.cnn.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;02&#x2F;14&#x2F;asia&#x2F;coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk&#x2F;index.html
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bjourne
I can only speak for myself, but the "red flags" that you speak of [1-5]
aren't very convincing to me. That there are errors in WHOs data isn't
surprising, nor that it needs to make pragmatic decisions in trying to get
authoritarian regimes to cooperate. That WHOs guidance sometimes is confusing
is what you'd expect from a world-wide organization in large part made up of
volunteers run on a relatively tiny budget.

Unless you are an expert in epidemology or international humanitarian
politics, I don't think the organization you would form would do a better job
than WHO. Therefore I'm not interested in helping you.

If you want to help improve worldwide health then you could enroll in one of
its many volunteer programs. That way, you would gain valuable experience in
how the organization operates which would help you if you decide to create an
alternative.

~~~
PierredeFermat
I don't think we should just give up to the fact that it's normal to have
errors coming from these big Orgs operating at such a sensitive front. Look
what some small errors and delays are doing.

If an organisation gets too big to keep its act together, perhaps it's time to
make it more decentralized and dynamic (the original proposition).

I also honestly don't think working as a volunteer would really get you to
understand how something like the WHO is being actually run.

I'm not an expert (would never say otherwise). But the world is full of
experts locked in dogmas and lacks those couragious enough to break free, look
stupid and try new things.

~~~
tcbasche
> perhaps it's time to make it more decentralized and dynamic (the original
> proposition)

Honestly, what does that even mean? Wouldn't it be even _more_ chaotic?

------
codingdave
> easily replaced by an efficiently-operated, software-powered non-profit

No, one of the biggest problems I see in our industry is startups jumping into
problem spaces they do not fully understand, and flailing around for a year or
so, maybe getting enough people talking to them to refine their product, learn
their own market, and finally get "product/market fit". Maybe.

I don't feel that we should try to replace the WHO with such a failure-prone
process just because they have some problems. I do feel that you can certainly
start down that path with a long-term goal to learn that space and improve
upon it... but it will be a journey, not a quick fix.

It cannot be simplified down to: "bureaucracy is broken, lets replace it with
some code."

~~~
tcbasche
I think a lot of people in our industry think the solution to an inherently
human problem (not to mention one as complex and delicate as health!) is to
throw code at it and demand billions of dollars in return.

------
dragonwriter
What WHO does is intergovernmental public health coordination. It is
inherently a political function. The decentralized version is just local
public health authorities acting without the WHO.

~~~
PierredeFermat
> What WHO does is intergovernmental public health coordination

I'm afraid that's a normative and oversimplistic statement.

Have you seen, at least, the WHO Twitter/FB feeds? It's acting as a teacher
for the global public. So "intergovernmental public health coordination" is
definitely not its only job, which it doesn't seem to be doing well. There's
no disagreement that it's inherently political but in any case, that wasn't a
function I proposed to replace in the first place.

> The decentralized version is just local public health authorities acting
> without the WHO.

That actually goes with the original proposition and that's the way to go. But
the early warning system for these authorities is broken - they got their
intel too late.

------
aww_dang
How do you propose to keep it apolitical? Even Wikipedia has a political
slant.

I agree with your concerns, but I don't know if what you propose can keep
politics out. It is still probably worth a shot either way.

~~~
PierredeFermat
Not entirely sure yet. However, that's exactly why verified, anonymous data
reporting would be a good starting point. But I assume your concerns are more
about [the difficulty of] neutral funding?

~~~
aww_dang
Exactly, state sponsored universities could create some of the same conflicts
of interest we've seen with COVID-19.

~~~
PierredeFermat
True. How do you think this could be overcome? Crowdfunding? Donations?

~~~
aww_dang
Allow competing voices to coexist without presuming to act as an arbiter of
'truth'. Politics would remain, but the end user could choose.

------
kleer001
Sounds great. I love it. Sadly I fear that's not really how humans work. Very
motivated, intelligent, and well meaning humans have been trying for centuries
to decouple function from politics. It's not going to be solved by any
technology or technique we have today.

But that's only my ignorant opinion.

~~~
PierredeFermat
I don't think it's an ignorant opinion. How do you imagine it being solved?

~~~
kleer001
I don't have the hubris to suggest anything.

------
krapp
What would this organization's apolitical policy be regarding Taiwan?

~~~
PierredeFermat
Close coordination with the Chinese government :)

No, there would (almost) be no policy. That's the point. It's one planet - one
health. Which country it is shouldn't matter much.

If a severe case was reported by medical staff in Taiwan, North Korea or where
ever it would/should instantly show as potential breakout warning signal on
some webpage or dashboard, without having to travel weeks through broken
bureaucracies and press.

~~~
krapp
There has to be a policy. Either you deal with Taiwan though China and on
China's terms, which is a political position, or you deal with Taiwan on its
own terms, which is a political position, or you ignore Taiwan altogether
because of the controversy around its status, which is a political position.
Choosing to ignore bureacuracies and the press is a political decision.
Choosing which data to post and what sources to trust is a political decision.

There's no such thing as an organization which operates internationally and is
also apolitical.

~~~
PierredeFermat
In the broad definition of what makes something "political", that is
definitely the case. No disagreement.

However, to not drift this discussion into definitions, I'll agree on your
definition of "politics", which - correct me if I'm wrong - is any activity
that involves decision making.

Let's assume, in that or any case, every decision and action to be political.
Then the important question here becomes: how do we make political decisions
that would ensure the most transparent, decentralised, instant and honest
reporting? Would that mean trusting all medical facilities/staff of any kind
or excluding some?

Point is: if every decision is political, then let's make the good ones with
the best possible outcome, regardless of their nature/definition.

~~~
krapp
>I'll agree on your definition of "politics", which - correct me if I'm wrong
- is any activity that involves decision making.

I'm actually trying to imply something more realpolitik - that China defines
what's political in this case.

Because understand, anything less than fully recognizing that Taiwan is a
province under the lawful control of the Chinese government and submitting to
that authority means this organization would be recognized by China as
extremist and any Taiwanese involved with it would be considered enemies of
the state, and censored at best, or arrested at worst. And the more popular
and useful this organization became, the harder China would crack down on it.

This is why I'm saying an organization like this can't be apolitical - that's
not something the world recognizes or allows.

~~~
PierredeFermat
Data/reporting scope could be made anonymous and more local; on a city/town
level (e.g. "Dec 22, 2019 | Severe flu case reported in X district of Wuhan
(30°34'21.2"N 114°12'30.0"E) - potential for outbreak").

At high level of exposure, as you said, the Chinese gov may track down anyone
behind such report, despite the anonymity. It may even block investigative
entry/inquiry to the entire city. How do we solve that? I don't know but I
suppose that, in the grand order of things and following this pandemic, we
shouldn't be living in a world where any government is allowed to work against
such public health efforts and get us into another quagmire that we could have
simply avoided, which again rolls back to international relations, politics
and trade and is tricky to solve but shouldn't stand in the way of trying
these things out. We can't simply give up to the way the world is set up at
any point in time.

