

Tell HN: Read Maxim and other trashy "guy" rags. - mahmud

I went out to get a haircut today and had a chance to scan through crap magazines before my appointment.<p>Extremely worthwhile.<p>Anybody who is out of business ideas, specially "social apps" will do well consuming that garbage from time to time. It's simply full of insight into the mindset of a sizable segment of society. The ads within the pages are full of hints on what works.<p>I had a short stint as a reseller for luxury motorcycles, and I am 100% certain that my business would have benefited from an earlier exposure to these publications.
======
peteforde
I strongly recommend that you folks read Chuck Klosterman's "Sex, Drugs, and
Cocoa Puffs: A Low Culture Manifesto" if you haven't already:

[http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Drugs-Cocoa-Puffs-
Manifesto/dp/074...](http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Drugs-Cocoa-Puffs-
Manifesto/dp/0743236017)

Some will adore his writing style, others will hate it. As an essayist, his
prose is about as far from PG's style as possible... which is exactly why I'm
suggesting it.

Off the top of my head, he goes into extensive, gratuitous quasi-intellectual
breakdowns of everything from MTV's The Real World to G'n'R cover bands.

In the chapter on sugary breakfast cereals, Chuck notes that "an inordinate
number of cereal commercials are based on the premise that a given cereal is
so delicious that a fictional creature would want to steal it." Have truer
words ever been written? He continues:

"Being cool is mostly ridiculous, and so is sugared cereal. That's why we like
it."

"I eat sugared cereal almost exclusively. This is because I'm the opposite of
a 'no-nonsense' guy. I'm an 'all-nonsense' guy. When a button falls off my
shirt, I immediately throw it away and buy a new one. I can't swim; to me,
twelve feet of water is no different than twelve feet of hydrochloric acid.
However, I _can_ stay awake for 72 straight hours. When flipping channels
during commercial breaks, I _can_ innately sense the perfect moment to return
to watch I was watching. So the rub is that I have all these semicritical
flaws and I have these weirdly specific gifts, and it seems like most
Americans are similarly polarized by what the can (and cannot) do. There are
no-nonsense people, and there are nonsense people. And it's my experience that
nonsense people tend to consume Cocoa Krispies and Lucky Charms and Cap'n
Crunch (nonsense food, if you will). Consequently, we nonsense types spend
hours and hours staring at cardboard creatures like the Trix Rabbit and
absorbing his ethos, slowly ingesting the principles of exclusionary coolness
while rapidly ingesting sugar-saturated spoonfuls of Vitamin B-12."

If you're still reading... kudos! My point is transcribing this is simply that
we geeks tend to see the world in a more or less specific way unless we
consciously eat some Trix once in a while.

~~~
yters
Yeah, I've noticed exactly this. I've been raised to think my sober, analytic
take on life is the "mature" point of view and the one that produces value in
the world. All the "nonsense" people are the value consumers.

However, when I get off my high horse I realize we've all got our
idiosyncracies and the real value detractors are those who can't see their own
nonsense for what it is. In a sense, the "nonsense" people have the most
sensible view of life.

------
jacquesm
Mahmud, _please_ do an autobiography! Cigarette black marketeer, lisper,
salesman of luxury motor cycles, business advisor and to top it off, a window
cleaner.

No doubt many other things beside, if you can spare the time, do it, I'll pre-
order at any fair price.

There has to be a very interesting story at the root of all that.
Alternatively, if you bring the stories I'll supply the campfire.

~~~
mahmud
Ouch, I feel sorry for the bunch of people who just followed me on twitter,
thinking I am Mr Fun Stories. Hint: I only tweet to bitch about compilers or
APIs. Like everything in #lisp, it's smug despair and violent indifference.

~~~
GVRV
I've been following you for a while on Twitter, and I think it's a shame that
you don't tweet/blog about your thoughts more often. I think there's a group
of very intelligent, experienced hackers on HN who should share their
thoughts/ideas more often as it would benefit the whole community. I would
much prefer to read something by them than some the submissions that make it
to the front page which is obviously link-bait with meaningless content.

------
DevX101
I think the broader point is that entrepreneurs should expose themselves to as
many domains outside their comfort zones as possible. As hackers/entrepreneurs
we're generally pretty good at seeing a solution to a problem. The issue is,
that we don't see enough problems, because many of us are confined to a
relatively narrow experiences many of which are echo chambers for what we're
already interested in/agree with.

Why do you think there are SO MANY productivity apps? Because it's something
programmers often need to work with to get shit done. Same for coding tools,
etc etc...

Another example: just yesterday someone posted the report recommending an
income tax receipt. Within 24 hours, there was a pretty neat app out for that.
The issue wasn't that someone couldn't do it -- but that the 'need' wasn't
previously well defined to people capable of solving that problem.

So get your ass out there. Find out problems and interests people unlike you
have. Maybe you'll stumble upon your next big thing.

~~~
jonhendry
Exactly. If you think of your life as a problem space, adopting a new hobby or
interest is a way of expanding that problem space.

Right now, maybe you're reasonably content with things in your life. You've
explored your problem space and solved anything causing stupid problems. Add a
hobby, and you increase your problem space, and you may find new itches, that
you didn't have before, that need scratching (to mix metaphors).

~~~
jayliew
Recently I've set out on a quest to actively find new ideas; going as far as
making it a goal to find one new idea a day (no matter how crazy, for the sake
of flexing my brain and getting it better at stumbling on opportunities). This
is as opposed to my previous method of passively reading about things and
hoping that as things accumulate in my head, I will subconsciously one day
while taking a shower have a eureka moment and think of an awesome idea (which
does happen, just not as frequent as I would like).

I've found that by just sitting down and clearing my head and forcing myself
to _think_ really hard, trying to connect the dots half-baked ideas and just
mixing it up with random thoughts, I've gotten a whole lot better at thinking
up of ideas. Patrick (patio11)'s article about his not understanding why
people complain they can't find ideas really gave me a good kick in the side
and motivated me to do this: [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/03/20/running-a-
software-busin...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/03/20/running-a-software-
business-on-5-hours-a-week/) and I do find his comment about "walking in a
store to find what people buy" a great starting point! I also have this book
which I recommend 'A Whack on the Side of the Head' <http://amzn.to/bm6vW4>
which certainly did literally help me look at ideas in a different light and
generate new ideas.

As a part of my effort to just find new opportunities, I've been documenting
meta-algorithms to find algorithms (if a business idea/model is an algorithm).
An entry I just added is:

* Learn a new concept, algorithm, (e.g. 'Programming Collective Intelligence' <http://amzn.to/cMLnKj>), and apply it to some problem in a different field (e.g. non-technical things in real life, or things I use such as Facebook, Twitter, etc). <\-- An example of this: I read up on Shazam's clever algorithm and tried to use that method to solve something else.

Does anyone else collect such meta algorithms?

------
Tichy
Although it has to be said, sometimes Hacker News does not seem to be _that_
different from Men's Health and the likes. Here it is "How to get rich in four
hours", in Men's Health it is "How to get great abs in 4 hours". And with Tim
Ferris' next book, the two worlds will move even closer to each other.

Edit: this reminds, WHY is there no "Hacker News" for women's stuff? Where
things like "the sensational new makeup" or whatever can be upvoted and so on?
(No offense to women, I am talking about women's magazine readers). In theory
women like to talk more than men, yet I am not aware of such a site.

~~~
mortuus
at least two social bookmarking sites targeted to women have been attempted
and failed

sk*rt: <http://mashable.com/2007/08/08/skirt/> SugarLoving:
[http://www.killerstartups.com/Web20/sugarloving-com-digg-
nev...](http://www.killerstartups.com/Web20/sugarloving-com-digg-never-tasted-
so-sweet)

~~~
andrewf
IIRC Reddit's "in" with Conde Nast (who eventually purchased them) was a
social networking site targeted at women, owned and branded by CN, with
Reddit's tech.

~~~
rmc
Yeah I believe that was lipstick.com.

------
patio11
You can also get a lot from Cosmo. (Insert "10 Surprising Reasons I'm Not
Joking" here.)

~~~
mahmud
Notice how the Top-10 format itself, a classic cover item, has only recently
been admitted into the link-bait hall of fame.

------
GVRV
Hmm.. I've looked at these mags from time to time, but I still don't
understand what you're pointing to. Most of the advertising in these mags
would fool you into thinking that the average reader of this magazine is a 20
year old with a million dollar paycheck only interested in pleasing his woman.

I'm not sure most readers of these mags can even relate to the luxury goods
advertised. Anyways, how does that help my startup? From what I've read, most
of the articles in the mags are highly stylized/fictionalized, I wouldn't
trust them to validate a demand, I would much rather sit down 1 on 1 with a
small number of people, rather than base that decision on these mags. (Maybe I
still don't know if this is what you mean?)

~~~
atomical
I think he is talking about the psychology of the magazines from a marketing
standpoint. There is a lot of sociology literature about the idiotic ideals
they portray. You could check out that instead to get a grasp on the mindset
of the reader or at the very least what the reader will be receptive to.

Do these magazines attempt to create a market or do they validate a demand?
That would be my question.

~~~
mahmud
You understood me well.

 _Do these magazines attempt to create a market or do they validate a demand?_

This is the first question that came to my mind, and the answer came to me
immediately by looking left and right. It was Saturday afternoon, and while I
was there to remove a nasty afro-mohawk that I grew out of boredom, the
gentlemen crowding the shop where almost lifted out of the pages, and seem to
be following fashions proscribed therein. They're not millionaires, they were
your average Joes, but I could flip through pages and find everyone's fashion
and accessories; from phones, to shoes, choice of clothes. There was even a
guy who had his eye-brows done before he went on to sit underneath one of
those "insert head, wait for an hour" bowls that look like a giant reading
lamp, or a space helmet (my girl gets those and I never imagined apparently
straight men would be into that. Does it blow air or does it vacuum?)

Maybe it takes an outsider to see a world differently, but to me it was a wake
up call to keep an eye on that part of society.

~~~
GVRV
If I'm understanding correctly, it's what every surviving media outlet does -
validate a demand. People magazine gives middle aged women something to dream
about, Maxim does the same thing for guys, reading signal vs. noise does the
same for aspiring founders. Because the audience is actively seeking
something, there's a good chance they will follow whatever they're being fed
by the media outlet. Some of these audiences are less receptive than others,
but I understand how it's helpful to understand that market.

Also, I think it blows air but not sure. :)

------
jiganti
A lot of times I get ideas from considering these types of experiences with
how people operate. If it's a magazine, a social situation or a TV commercial,
they might collide with the abstract thoughts floating around in your head at
just the right angle, producing a great idea.

People talk a lot about swimming around in your thoughts to conceive ideas.
This is something that I definitely support; people spend way too little time
letting their mind wander, and so they end up only being able to think in the
shower or in line at Starbucks. Setting aside more time to do this, along with
refusing to whip out the smartphone to read HN or check in with foursquare
every time something isn't immediately demanding your attention, will give
your mind a better chance to conceive new ideas and consider old ones.

That said, often it takes a little fuel to jump start your thought process.
Something specific to consider, to trigger memories and begin a train of
thought. As people in the startup industry tend to be more technically
inclined and thus, occasionally lose sight of their market's intellectual
abilities and social tendencies, it can be refreshing to embed yourself in the
types of things people do that you expect to use your product.

~~~
yters
One way I've come up with some of my best ideas is at school working on a
boring, hard project with a major deadline looming. Those tend to be the best
times to start day dreaming and procrastinating.

------
jonhendry
I would suggest getting a new, non-computer hobby and getting tuned in with
the magazines (if any) and blogs that cover the topic.

That'd at least be more focused. Mens mags might be a bit diffuse. And it's
possible that, by the time something shows up in Maxim, it's already kinda old
hat.

Finally, if something shows up in Maxim, it might be because of a well-funded
PR campaign, not because of genuine grassroots interest.

------
gabrielroth
Whatever you do, don't take sex advice from them.

A female friend of mine was hanging out with a bunch of guys who had a lot of
Maxims in their bathroom. She wound up reading an article along the lines of
"Seven Ways to Drive Her Wild in Bed."

That night she hooked up with one of the guys. To her amazement, she realized
midway through that he was trying _every one_ of the techniques in the
article.

~~~
jamesbritt
"Whatever you do, don't take sex advice from them."

Well, at least one of them apparently knows how to get laid.

------
_Lemon_
Could you expand on what you saw, generally what your thought process was, and
how you feel it could apply to business ideas and social apps in general?

I understand that it may be obvious and I'm sure I'd have plenty of ideas
myself, I'm just curious of the mindset and psyche behind your (as another
person) thinking.

~~~
mahmud
The revelation that ordinary people, the type you run into everyday, might be
aspiring to live the lives shown in popular rags and television. It's
completely accepted that what's shown on pages is something to be desired, and
if one can't obtain them, then a lesser quality item of similar fashion is to
be accepted as substitute.

In concrete terms: people don't open Maxim and laugh. They open it and get
inspired. They know the girl on the cover by name, they know the brand of
futuristic car she's posing against, and one of them commented he "just
bought" a clone advertised in there.

~~~
Poiesis
_They open it and get inspired. They know...he "just bought" a clone
advertised in there._

I'm inspired to buy a clone; sign me up! :)

More seriously, I understand that we are among people here for whom it is
fashionable to reject popular culture. Or, if not strictly being fashionable,
are certainly not overly concerned with some of the more commercial aspects of
culture.

It's just a bunch of ads with enough wrapped around for it to be read by its
target demographic. It's easy to read more into this than it really merits.
Yes, so-called "ordinary people" read such magazines and see the ads, and
perhaps want the stuff. That's what it's _designed_ to do.

There is a _lot_ of money thrown into trying to get people to buy stuff. This
is not news. Nor is it news that most of us are trying to improve our
financial position, whether as means or end.

I don't I'm quite expressing well what I'm trying to say here. It's not that I
don't understand what you mean when you seem a bit bewildered at some of the
advertisements (that incidentally probably weren't targeted for you). But it
doesn't seem like it would be a huge surprise to realize that advertising
really works pretty well, generally speaking.

It's unfortunately one reason I fear for the U.S. political future; it seems
distressingly easy to change people's minds simply by throwing enough money at
the problem.

------
JimboOmega
Maxim is 95% advertising, either direct or indirect; most of the
articles/columns/etc are about things you should buy. Throw in a few pictures
of a scantily clad woman, and a badly written sex advice column, and that's
all it is.

As another poster said, it's mostly about advertising and I suppose if that is
what you want to learn about, go ahead.

I have to disagree with the OP. It is not a window into the world in which
"normal guys" live in by any sense. Perhaps, the world "normal guys" wished
they lived in - with expensive gadgets and super models. (What is a "normal
guy" anyway? Do most male hackers not like gadgets and attractive women?)

If you see an article comparing beers to pick the season/year's best, you
might think it is appealing to the beer-swilling masses, but really it is
there to sell beer.

I was very surprised to find Playboy a far better read, but it is. Yes, it has
nudity, but it has articles I find good reads too.

Anyway if you want an insight into an untapped segment, watch daytime
television. What kind of person watches daytime television? People do, and
they have a lot of free time they could be spending on your site. What are
they like? I don't know. But that's more insightful than something that throws
advertising at basic male instincts.

------
gbog
I usually find good stuff on HN but sometimes it feels too US-centric, and
here, even worse, it seems highly HN-centric.

Poster mahmud probably deserve a lot of respect but without context his post
and the comments are useless for me, and I guess it should be the same for
other occasional lurkers that happen to not know what Maxim is, nor live in
the US.

Please don't misinterpret, I don't feel I have any position to say what HN
should or shouldn't be, and I know that these meta-level comments are not
welcome, because they do not add anything useful to the discussion. It's only
that, from time to time, I have felt myself "excluded" from the HN community,
because I'm not living the same life, reading the same newspaper (I read
none), etc.

On the other hand, when I re-read Paul Graham's essays, they are really the
kind of food for the mind that any open minded guy, reading enough English,
would enjoy. It is a kind of "Humanisme" a la Diderot, that is worthwhile,
that I like to find on HN -- End of the "I feel lonely" complain.

~~~
stonemetal
Not sure where you are from but it should be easy to replace Maxim with low
brow mens entertainment publication. It has a large number of pictures of
girls in bathing suits, beer etc.

------
maxklein
I absolutely agree. Most people are not interested in developer tools or
productivity tools, they just want TV quality stuff. Unfortunately, there is
little software supplying this to them.

------
xutopia
My local ruby user group invites people from various practices to discuss
their frameworks and give us business advice.

So many people really do live in a ghetto.

------
aspir
It sometimes seem as though these magazines are outrageous and worthless. All
the content is typically big ticket spending and dating supermodels. But, they
sell and do very well. It says a great deal about the male psychology and how
to position a product. Obviously these magazines are doing something
correctly, otherwise they wouldn't exist in their volume.

------
vkdelta
Mahmud, It has happened to quite a few times because I never take appointments
at such places.

I am not a coder but I think there is a big opportunity for making
applications/services for people who want to consume trash. There is huge
chunk of society who needs it and it is not-so surprising seeing how much
money luxury brands make.

------
skowmunk
Yep, I agree, there are so many opportunities floating all around us. Its
always a matter of us discovering them and then most importantly executing
them, in a way that translates those opportunities into monetizable services.

------
davidedicillo
I agree. Too many people seems to forget that most of the population aren't
geek, they don't live online and they don't think like the average HN user.
Guess what, may seems stupid, but stupid can makes millions...

------
ryanpetrich
Some magazines are mostly marketing and advertising. Read them if you want to
learn about marketing and advertising

