
Hiring a technical co-founder; Do I want to be the asshole? - chloealpert
https://medium.com/@chloealpert/my-startup-is-ready-to-go-so-do-i-be-the-asshole-f84fb58c8b0d
======
blueprint
"The argument is that you haven’t totally screwed them. They’re paid a decent
salary from day 1. They’ve been completely de-risked"

$60k a year? Are you fucking kidding me? And what about the opportunity cost
of wasting 9 or more months?

It's never right to lie to people. What's the difference between this
rationalization and the seeds of sociopathy?

~~~
chloealpert
I agree. I had this advice from more than one person, which was literally
shocking to me.

The ratio of people offering me this advice was on a 3/10 scale, but it really
made me wonder? Do we need to be horrible people to succeed? I don't agree
with that.

------
karmajunkie
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the fact that you're asking for
advice on the question already makes you an asshole. The real question you
should be asking yourself is whether you should continue to have relationships
with people who think this is an ok thing to do.

The fact is you can't get it done by yourself, even if you could do the
backend work. You think someone coming on at this point "isn't a true
cofounder". Well, you're kind of wrong on that one. You don't have a product
yet, you don't really have a company, and "two angels talking money" means you
also don't have any investors yet. You think the risk is all out of it at this
point. Wrong again. You think that $60k is a reasonable salary and you haven't
even thought about the opportunity cost for that individual.

Bringing someone on at what is a ridiculously low salary (assuming you could
find a sucker to do it) _with the intention of firing them before they vest_
is beyond unconscionable. If I were looking at investing in you and found this
article, I'd drop the term sheet in the trash and tell you to lose my contact
information in a heartbeat. That kind of ethical tapdancing would disqualify
you from running your own company in my mind. When people in this industry
talk about "hustling", they're not talking about the kind you find in a seedy
pool hall.

~~~
chloealpert
I really appreciate everything you've said, and I think you've deconstructed
it much better than I did.

The first point about asking advice on the matter was meant to be a rhetorical
question. I had the same abhorrent reaction you did to the advice of
underpaying, hiring with the plan to dismiss someone, devaluing them as a co-
founder, etc. I want to make that clear that I would never run a company that
way, or work with people who did.

When you look at a play like that on paper, the numbers look good. But what
are you forgetting? You're forgetting that you're building a BUSINESS, and
businesses are built around people and relationships.

What I was wondering was whether or not founders really did see that sort of
unscrupulous play as an option in their business. Do people actively operate
that way? When presented with those facts in such an emotionless narrative,
would people buy in? Has humanity sunk so far in the desire to achieve wealth,
that we're willing to sacrifice the well being of others? To ignore
hardworking people who are helping us build our dream?

I've heard so many stories of engineers getting screwed, and I wondered if
people truly operate that way?

~~~
s0x
I appreciate the candor of your post. Ethics is a fun topic.

I would suggest scrapping the idea of a co-founder and look into hiring
contractors. I use them exclusively. You can find great ones in Russia and
Eastern Europe for well under $20/hr.

At the end of the day building a business is about creating value (making
money), not life-long friendships.

------
qwibbler
This article is so short sighted, it's hard to know where to start. My advice
is to delete it, as you may have trouble hiring engineers in the future and
anyone will find this when they google your name / research your company. As
an engineer, weighing the options you suggest in public is a massive red flag
and I would always have a seed of distrust in the back of my head.

Regardless of the fact that the culmination of the article is that you don't
REALLY want to be an asshole (I'm not so sure), it shows that:

A) You imply engineers are just people to build your dreams and dispose of
when you're done. "I'll just not fire them". Good engineers can make or break
your company.

B) You're hanging out with terrible advisors (camp 1? wtf)

> "You don’t get to the top without making a few enemies, though." Most people
> don't make enemies of their employees or show such blatant disrespect.

~~~
chloealpert
I considered deleting the article, and you may be right about that. But if I
can't take criticism, and can't be accountable for what I write, I'm not a
very good founder.

What I was trying to discuss was the fact that this spectrum of advice really
makes someone an asshole. But then does it take being an asshole to get to the
top?

To your point A, the idea that engineers are just tools is exactly what's
wrong with the advice I was given. I found it shocking, but there are levels
of big business where the line of humanity and numbers can be blurred. My goal
is to develop a relationship with someone, and back that up with honest
business.

To your point, B, this was from a very select set of people I got advice from
and represents a small fraction of my mentorship spectrum. These people are
all very very successful. They've built and sold multi-million dollar
companies, which is why it's so interesting to me to consider that people
operate this way.

~~~
twic
Rather than deleting it, you might want to edit it to make it clearer it's a
thought experiment. It's clear from the reactions here that people took it
rather more literally than i think you meant it.

------
grizzles
So the open question is, should you enter into a business relationship
disingenuously? Do you really need an answer? I guess this post must be from
the there's no such thing as bad publicity school of thought.

+1 Voted up. (comedy)

~~~
jqm
A person who thinks at the level this article was written at probably isn't
going to have a business to fire the victim from in 9 months.

That is, assuming they find someone smart enough to do all the heavy lifting
but foolish enough to be victimized by a person who thinks at this level.

------
muaddirac
Out of curiousity, are there legal ramifications to the "asshole" scenario?
What recourse would the person being fired have?

~~~
chloealpert
I seriously couldn't image that there wouldn't be? Outside of just being a
horrible person, you would be firing a perfectly good employee.

I feel like there's a wrongful termination suit right there. I don't know how
people could get away with it. It seems they do?

------
stractract
Why would anyone ever consider working for/with this person after publishing
this?

~~~
chloealpert
I don't think I made it very clear that these are not my opinions, but simply
advice that I got from other founders that I found shocking, and wanted to
discuss.

I've amended the article with what I hope is a clearer representation of my
opinion. I found it shocking that some founders operated on this level. It
never occurred to me that people actively do something like that.

------
icedchai
60k would be a good salary for a developer a couple years out of school, in a
low cost of living area... in 1998.

Second, I took at look at your sites. "Registier" is an awful name. Most
people are not going to know how to pronounce it, never mind spell it. Second,
you have typos on your sites, both personal site and company, that make you
look even more unprofessional. One is even your own company name.

~~~
chloealpert
Thanks for pointing out the typos, I'm surprised I missed them.

Also, I did attach my personal name to this because I'm looking to talk about
controversial subjects and not hide from them. I'm disappointed you felt the
need to personally attack me, but that's your prerogative.

------
gamechangr
The argument is that you haven’t totally screwed them. They’re paid a decent
salary from day 1. They’ve been completely de-risked"

60k is no where near a decent salary.

I wouldn't be surprised if your angel investors "have a change of heart".

~~~
chloealpert
I agree.

If you're asking someone to sign up for something, the opportunity cost is
huge. $60 for a good development team is terrible.

The point I was making is that it's an unscrupulous way to found a company,
and it was advice that came from a few very successful entrepreneurs.

If you're a lightly funded startup, $60k is good, but that needs to be matched
with a realistic equity offer as well.

