
Ask HN: How do I earn more as a developer? - raejumping
I have immigrated to France for a better life a little over 2 years ago, and I have been working as a frontend developer ever since.<p>I have managed to move from a little under 2000€&#x2F;month as a starting salary to around 2500€ now. Which is OK but not great.<p>But since money is a delicate subject here and people try not to talk about it, I&#x27;m clueless about how to progress and what kind strategies I should be taking.<p>I was wondering how all the people are landing the big bucks? How can I move to a bracket that would allow me to eventually buy a house and start a more stable life.
======
itgoon
Learn about business.

Ultimately, the job of a developer is to write code which achieves a business
goal. If you have a better understanding of those goals, and can anticipate
them, you become more valuable to the people writing the checks.

~~~
johnnyfaehell
Basically, stop doing development work and start doing Project Management,
Product Management, Business Analysis, etc.

~~~
bluehatbrit
I'm not sure this is what the parent commenter meant. I think they meant the
OP should get to the point where as a developer they can anticipate business
needs.

That could manifest through areas like suggesting architectural changes
that'll save money or open up doors in the near future, or finding pieces of
the business that can easily be automated to generate / save money.

~~~
johnnyfaehell
I think I've been misunderstood, I'm not advocating people to quit being a
developer. I was pointing out that what the person was originally suggesting
is actually start doing non-development work.

> where as a developer they can anticipate business needs

The thing is, a developer isn't normally in the business meetings where these
are discussed. It's not a developers job to be in on a meeting about using X
pricing model over Y.

A developer is a doer job. Developers do things. They don't decide things
other than the technical details. If you're going to learn the business
properly, you need to start entering other areas. Such as product management,
start defining problems with the product and what can be changed. That a
developer can start doing, but sitting here pretending it's not developers
work is just lying.

Too often I read on the internet and hear at conferences that "every developer
should do X for their company". Guys, I'm going to break it to you guys. X is
literally another person' job, if I start doing it, they're going to get pissy
real quick (or they're lazy and will just take credit for it) For some reason
people seem to think developers are swiss army knives of businesses. It's not
our job to find problems with the product, that's the product managers job. We
can start doing it but we're going to start moving away from development work
and towards product work. That's not a bad thing per say, it is just what is.

~~~
zebraflask
... not to belabor the discussion, but have you ever run across a scenario
where one of the non-technical people tried to insist on something absolutely
boneheaded from either a business or technical perspective? Who gets blamed if
the dev just shrugs and does it?

Hint: not the person who insisted on it. The developer.

I've seen that play out too many times. Expanding out of a strictly coding
role isn't just good for career progression, it's a necessity for career self-
preservation, too.

~~~
johnnyfaehell
Yes, refusing to do things that are technically bad is a technical matter
hence a developers job. And what happens if you say no, they either go find a
developer who will do it (seen that so often) or they go to the CTO/Engineer
Manager/etc to try and get them to agree. In both cases, a developers job is
to give technical feedback such as "Sorry but that's a security threat, you'll
need to figure a new approach. Maybe try Z." not, "I think it is a better idea
to work on X instead because it's going to generate Y". One is technical
feedback on their idea and the other is a product/business idea.

> Expanding out of a strictly coding role isn't just good for career
> progression, it's a necessity for career self-preservation, too.

The first part is pretty much my point. To progress in a career in IT you have
to stop doing technical work to progress. Development is a dead end job, just
a reasonably well paid one. The second part, for the most part, I've never
really seen. Most developers I've worked with haven't been held accountable
for anything in such a long time that they get offended when you point out 500
servers going down in 20 countries because of one Redis server is embarrassing
and we should work on stopping that from ever happening again and give excuses
why it's not.

------
a13n
Join a remote company that doesn't pay solely based on location. eg. Zapier,
Buffer, or Canny. ;)

Check out Buffer's transparent salary calculator.
[https://buffer.com/salary/software-
engineer/low](https://buffer.com/salary/software-engineer/low). For an entry
level software engineer in a low cost of living area (which France is probably
not), you'd be making double what you're making now.

I think with the massive shift that's happening with remote work, market rate
salaries will roughly converge no matter where you work.

~~~
monkeynotes
> you'd be making double what you're making now

Need to know if his quoted income is pre or post-tax. France is a social
country and you pay a lot of taxes for the social services, so his €2500 may
be _after_ tax and his gross is close to double that.

------
aantix
Is staying in France a requirement? Because if money is your concern, you
should be in Silicon Valley. That's where your skills are valued. That's where
they pay you what you're worth.

Why would you do local theater when you could audition for roles in Hollywood?

~~~
muzani
American visas are notoriously difficult too. If you're not American or
something like Singapore which has good immigration laws with the US, you'll
have a hard time. There's also other downsides like poor healthcare and
vacation time, but some companies can make competitive offers for that.

~~~
aantix
The amount that you would make in SV and a position with a top company would
more than allow you to have a top tier health plan. Couple that with the Bay
Area being a prime research region, you’d be in an snacking position if
anything catastrophic happened.

------
aloisdg
Where are you in France? There is basically two kind of salary in France:
Paris vs everywhere else. In Paris area, 2k/month for a junior fresh from
school is not a lot. 2,5k is more common. After 2 years, you should be able to
reach 3k/month. I am in this case and I currently earn 3,2k/month (.NET house
fullstack job).

My main advice is to know that the market wants you. You are in very sweet
spot. Always ask more and be ready to bluff an alternative if needed.

My second advice is to always be "à l'écoute du marché". Be ready to switch if
something really nice show up. You can go to an interview even if you think
you are not going to change. Take the 'propal'.

My last advice is to be willing to switch. I read somewhere that most
developer got a better raise by getting a new job. In my own experience, it is
true.

Finally if you find a really sweet job, maybe you should keep it. Even if you
could earn more somewhere else. Big bucks is useful to pay your debts, but at
3k you should be able to have a peaceful life in France. Enjoy your stay.

Edit: We are talking about "net" salary here without bonus or shenanigans.

Edit2: Yes we hire (like everybody). (C#, F#, Typescript, React, SQL)

~~~
muse900
> but at 3k you should be able to have a peaceful life in France

I don't know about the French market and how expensive it is, I only know that
Paris is very an expensive city.

I also don't know if you have kids etc, but I feel like your statement about
3k being good to live on is sort of directed to a solo scenario? Can you have
an ok life having 3k a month + a spouse having 2k a month + 2 kids in Paris
for example? From my recent visit I found that its very expensive and a 5k
combined salary would be considered low to survive. Again I might be wrong but
enlighten me please, am interested.

~~~
scawf
5k is more than enough to "survive" in France. If you get 2.5k you are part of
the 20%. And having childs means you pay less tax.

------
dalbasal
In much of Europe, software salaries are in two separate modes or tiers. Local
mode and international mode. This is true in neighbouring countries (Germany &
England) too.

Ie, some jobs are part of the global software development market, and they pay
salaries close to what you'll find in software hubs like silicon valley.

Very generally, these tend to be in the software business. Ie the company
makes its revenue from software products rather than (eg) an insurance company
that employs devs to customize their CRM instance. Also, if English is used as
a working language, it's a better bet.

~~~
mattmanser
In the UK you only really see those sort of salaries for high pressure
financial IT jobs (well, last year I looked 3-4 years ago). Whether those jobs
will suddenly disappear soon is a good question.

Or you become a contractor, which pays almost double what a salaried employee
makes, but is less stable.

------
throwaway000123
2500 after the tax ? That's not bad after 2 years. I've only heard horror
stories in France when it comes to salary negotiation. Basically the regular
devs (=not very specialized field) have no bargaining power and there is this
silent seniority (sometimes plain cronyism) in which only a few people CAN
become harder to replace (working on core things) and get slowly promoted - no
matter what they do. The rest are being deliberately kept out of
important/complicate/sensitive work. My observation is that there are
basically 2 ways to get a raise in France (again, if you are not very
specialized) :

1) jump from job to job every 2 years max asking for more and hoping there is
no recession

2) stay in the same company forever and/or become friends with the important
guys.

Both are risky. In my limited experience the French companies put
significantly less value on experience and/or skill compared to US.

------
michaelbuckbee
Three paths:

1\. Start applying for new roles at new firms and asking for more.

2\. Ask your manager what you need to do at work to move up to the next level
of compensation and responsibility (if they don't have a good answer for this
it's a warning sign).

3\. Start your own side business (either consulting or selling a product).

~~~
orzig
I agree with each of these three options, but probably not all three at once.
Given the original question, probably 80% focus on number one and 20% number
two.

Of course, iteration as necessary

------
heldrida
If you move to a different city, like Paris, Berlin, San Francisco, there'll
be more competition; you may even end up competing against the people who are
involved in creating and maintaining tools, like Reactjs, hypothetical
speaking. If you are a user, have in mind that Reactjs is the jQuery of
nowadays, there's a lot of people doing the same and not many contributing.
Money is not everything in life, but if that's important, try to open a
business if you want to have more control over your earnings, but have in mind
that is not a easy for anybody. Appreciate where you are a the moment, educate
yourself financially and maybe start investing; invest in your education: AI,
ML, etc pays professionals quite well. And money can grow if you invest it
properly...

If you have passion about something, money will come; if what drives you is
money, you'll end up unhappy or the richest unhappy man at the gravyeard.

Good luck!

------
OliverJones
Make yourself a "hot" hire:

Learn SQL. Learn something about data mining. Those skills are rarer than
many, and therefore in demand.

Look at your own company. Are there any particular specialties that your
company needs? If so learn about them and start meeting that need. Similarly,
look at software / IT help-wanted ads in your region, pick out the tech
buzzwords, and learn enough to be qualified for more of those open positions.

Then look for a higher-paying job, and ask your current employer for some kind
of promotion.

This will take some of your personal time. But if you already have a laptop
and internet access it won't cost anything; many big software stacks have
excellent community editions.

------
johnstorey
Much good advice has been given here. You should consider it all. I am here to
offer another approach for consideration. My perspective is from working in
Silicon Valley in the US most of my career.

During my 20+ years in this field I have seen when

\- IBM was declared "dead" before Gerstner came in, and it's capitalization
was below the value of the real estate it held. It's hard to imagine now.

\- Apple dropped to almost nothing in stock price, and Jobs was pushed out by
Sculley.

\- Cisco became a real company.

\- Netflix came on the scene.

\- Amazon came on the scene.

\- Facebook IPO'd way too low. (I know someone who piled in, and bought a
Tesla 6 months later).

2 of those opportunities, because I understand this industry, I recognized and
took advantage of by buying the stocks. Others I did not even see. I lost a
little money alot, but made alot of money a few times. The key is never to bet
too much on the same company, so you can win if you are right only 20% of the
time.

Today I am following the economic shift from the U.S. and companies that are
capitalizing on the rapid maturation of machine learning. I've also taken a
job at a machine learning startup where I negotiated harder for equity than
pay.

Don't even get me started on blockchain. I did not make free bitcoin early on,
and sometimes still berate myself. But banks and governments will increasingly
regulate cryptocurrency, taking away the liberty it brings while reaping the
benefits of more efficient operations. Those are trends I can safely invest
in. Look at hyperledger, JPM coin, Ripple, that sort of thing.

(As an aside, every 5 years in technology has been "the most exciting time
ever to be alive". We are lucky to be around at this point in history, and in
the countries we are in.)

My theory has been: you can see what your industry is doing to the world.
Place your bets. Ride the ups and downs for a few years (3 to 10 -- Netflix
took along time to become obvious; so did Amazon). Reap unreasonable profit.

To summarize, the biggest dollar per hour wins in my life have been
investments, not income. Being higher in the hierarchy has only increased this
trend. Make sure you think about this avenue as well.

(For another example, during the dot com boom I saw a co-worker use naked
calls to turn USD $20,000 into millions. But they were naked calls -- he lost
it all when the market crashed, less than 6 months from his planned
retirement. That level of risk is not for me.)

~~~
fjeuplos
So your advice is buy stock? ;). Might make you some money but not sure how it
will help them earn more as a developer :)

~~~
johnstorey
Technically my advice is to expand his focus to building wealth from more than
just increasing income. But yes, you get the idea. Stock, options, etc.

------
a13n
Meanwhile somewhere else there's a thread from a startup founder asking how to
hire developers for less than six figures / SF market rate. Remote is the
future, people!

------
flerchin
USA based dev here. Keep learning and improving. Keep interviewing. 10% per
year raises should be the norm until you reach median developer wages.

~~~
sosilkj
"10% per year raises should be the norm"

do you mean even while staying with one employer, or by jumping to a new
employer?

~~~
qes
I'm 10 years in with the same company and I still get a 15%, +/\- 5%, raise
every year. I don't believe this is normal, though. It's a smaller company,
and I'm the lead developer.

------
ochronus
Without understanding the cost of living in France I'd suggest moving to
Berlin. There are lots of good companies here with great culture and various
growth opportunities. You might be better off salarywise as well - but
apartment rental is not cheap. It's hard to tell your next best move without
having more insight into your level of seniority, experience etc.

~~~
lm28469
I made the move from france to Berlin.

Salaries are about the same as in Paris, taxes are higher though, but the cost
of living in Berlin is much lower.

It's probably easier for a english speaker to blend in Berlin than Paris too.

~~~
sys_64738
Really interesting comment about Paris and English. When I was last in Paris
nobody wanted to speak French to me when they found out I could speak English.

~~~
lm28469
It depends in which part of the city you go I suppose. Touristic areas and
tech hot spots should be ok.

------
richardw
This is the best writeup I know of.
[https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-
pr...](https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/)

------
adrianN
Keep interviewing at new companies, switch companies regularly and demand
15-20% more each time.

~~~
skc
This is definitely the quickest and most effective method if making money is
your only goal.

But once you reach a certain salary ceiling you might find that you're stuck
at a company that you don't really like other than their pay.

------
AnimalMuppet
In my view there are two steps.

1\. Become worth more money. That is, you have to learn how to do things that
will make the company more money. That can either be learning how to do harder
things, or doing things that are more central to how the company makes money.
This may require learning new technical things, and it may also require
transferring to different projects, groups, teams, or divisions.

2\. Get paid what you're now worth. This may require "marketing" yourself to
management, pointing out to them what you're bringing to the company vs. what
you're paid. Or, if you can't do that successfully (or if management won't
listen), it may require switching jobs.

------
ritz_labringue
I'm a junior developer in Paris (~1.3 years of experience). I make 54.5k/y
"brut", which is basically a bit under 3000 after tax per month. 2500 seems a
bit low to me, especially if you are in Paris and have 2+ years experience.

------
dep_b
You need to develop your profile. Have a great LinkedIn, GitHub, Twitter and
don't forget to make yourself actually better in what you do. What is also
important is to figure out how to improve the processes you're involved in.
How to make things faster, make sure stuff is shipped faster or in a better
shape. Be pro-active.

Then there's another level you need to play on, which is your role. You're now
at the junior level, which means that you're not expected to complete complex
tasks on your own.

You need to make sure that you grow to medior / senior level, medior meaning
being able to build complex tasks and senior level means being able to
understand if such a task should be built, how it should be built and more
important than everything what it costs and how to actually get it shipped.

In short: you need to become a shipper. Nothing else matters. You should be
able to tell somebody that interviews you "I have shipped X, Y and Z and the
impact was...".

Once you've become a shipper and you know how to convince the world that you
are one through your self-marketing it's time to move up. You can try to get a
senior role in your own company but they rather pay you the same so that might
be more difficult than just working in another company. So use this job to get
more senior tasks, polish your resumé and move to another one. But don't be
shy to just _ask_ your boss how to move into a more senior role. Being in a
company and growing is good. Being for 5 years in the same company without
growing is bad. Really bad. So don't stay too long if you're not growing.

After that it's about multiplying your salary. You'll earn twice as much if
you're a fully booked freelancer and four times as much if you're a fully
booked consultant.

Another interesting path is going to the US and be a low-level CRUD developer
in a famous company like Google. But you need to be able to beat their tests,
which means studying a lot of stuff you won't use in your daily work. I have a
famous algorithm book that I read like once a month because I really want to
learn it, but I'm perpetually just too busy :(

------
montenegrohugo
If Salary is your only concern, your best option would be to move to the US.
The process for getting a H1-B Visa is honestly quite difficult, but assuming
you can get a company to sponsor you and you win the visa-lottery, you will
probably see your salary double/triple (from about 30k to 70-100).

Alternatively, if you want/have to stay in Europe, start applying to other
companies. Your current employer is not going to raise your salary unless you
pressure them into doing so, and the only way of doing that is to have another
job offer. Sadly, Job-hopping _literally_ pays

~~~
orzig
> Sadly, job-hopping literally pays

It is not necessarily sad. If another employer has a role where the OP can
generate more value, it’s in everyone’s best interest that they move there.

There are plenty of problems with analyzing ethical decisions solely with
classical economics, but this feels pretty defensible (as long as you apply
The same ethical standards to choosing your new job as you did it to choosing
your current job)

------
vishnugupta
Get a sense of salary ranges in your current company. Most of the managers,
recruiters, HR/finance know ball-park figure if not an accurate one. You'll
then be able to place yourself on that scale and in turn evaluate if its worth
investing to grow within the org or look outside.

A well known heuristic (backed by some data) is that changing jobs once every
~2.5 years will maximize your life-time earning.

Also, ask yourself if you are aiming for local maxima or global maxima (i.e.,
with city/France/EU/Global??). Be flexible with relocation depending on the
answer.

------
RickJWagner
Having been a professional programmer for 29 years now, it's been my
experience that the single biggest factor is the company you choose to work
for.

Find a company that's rapidly growing, has a good product base and rising
revenues. In such an environment pay raises are not infrequent and surprise
bonuses might come your way. Opportunities for advancement also present
themselves.

The alternative-- a stagnant company or a shrinking one-- instead offer
layoffs, pay/benefit reductions, and constant worries.

Look for the right company! It's worth it.

Good luck.

------
maxxxxx
Usually changing jobs helps. But don’t forget one thing: ask regularly for
more money at your current job. A lot of people don’t do that. Let your bosses
know you are not happy. Regularly.

------
Ahmedb
The best way is to switch companies every 2/3 years.

Also if you're working at what's called SSII, leave and find yourself a
company that values Seniority. Most SSII don't value it.

------
kodablah
Assuming moving isn't a possibility for you, the obvious answer is look for a
new job. It is rare to ever get a raise for the amount you get with a new job.
Negotiate high...too high...worst case scenario you stay where you are. Unsure
if the area you are in is flush with jobs, but if they are this strategy is
effective but can reasonably only happen every few years and only to a
ceiling.

------
fjeuplos
Become a contractor. When I was a perm I made awful money. Now as a contractor
I make £10,000 - £14000 a month (assuming I work a full month :-)).

~~~
fjeuplos
In case you really don't want to become a contractor and want to stay perm I
recommend changing job every 2 years or so. Staying in the same job and
getting small pay increases (or even a promotion) will always be less than
leaving and going to a new job, which will pay more. Most people make more
money by switching ladders rather than trying to climb the ladder.

------
jarnix
If your salary is about 2500 € per month, is it without or with the company
taxes ("brut" or "net") ?

If I talk in the companies that I know in France, 2500€/months (with -"brut"\-
or without company taxes -"net"-) seems low to me. Maybe you can just find
another job, the market is really open for developers ;)

~~~
raejumping
I'm basically making 42'000€ annually brut

~~~
thiago_fm
move to Berlin, best disposable income of europe.

------
CountVonGuetzli
Apply here. Pretty sure they pay better and their office is nearby (Valbonne).
If they ask, tell them yo're making 6k/month now:
[https://careers.ricardo.ch/jobs/151179-ingenieur-front-
end-s...](https://careers.ricardo.ch/jobs/151179-ingenieur-front-end-senior)

------
ochronus
With all the above and below said, if you're just starting out your career
it's much more important to be at the right place than it is to earn a lot. Of
course you shouldn't accept being underpaid but moving to a sh.tty company at
which you're not growing just for a few more euros is suicide.

------
servatti
Join professional remote freelancers companies like
[https://www.toptal.com/#employ-bright-coders](https://www.toptal.com/#employ-
bright-coders). You can start working hourly and move to a part-time or even
full-time when you feel comfortable and stable.

------
outime
If staying in Europe is a requirement, NL or UK usually pays much better than
France (given that you're already an inmigrant and some companies may pay you
less than a native unfortunately). Otherwise and as many others have
suggested, US is the answer.

~~~
bestouff
If staying in Europe is a requirement, obviously UK isn't a valid choice.

~~~
mcv
The UK may be leaving the EU, but it's still in Europe.

But I agree, it's not a good choice right now. Let the situation settle down
there first.

------
gquiniou
Try to join a large company that earns a lot of money (Pharma, Oil, Banking
...) : the salaries are good and there are a lot of side perks like extra
leave days, bonuses, additional bonus based on the company performance ...

------
ljf
Move companies semi-regularly - for roles that you really want, that will
stretch you and that will interest you.

Remember no one will look after your career and salary, like you.

------
loydb
In the US, you do it by moving to a new company. Every significant double-
digit percentage increase I've ever received was by changing jobs.

------
nicolashahn
Move to the US. Anywhere will pay you more than that, tech hubs even more so.
A more serious answer is try to get a remote job at a US company.

~~~
lm28469
> Move to the US. Anywhere will pay you more than that, tech hubs even more
> so.

Raw salary for sure, take home salary after health insurance, pension, etc ...
not so much. Unless you're 20s, live alone and don't plan to have kids.

~~~
nicolashahn
I disagree. I'm nothing special as a developer and my disposable income (after
rent, food, bills, etc. but not including savings) is more than OP's entire
income, just from living in a tech hub and getting paid an average salary
here. My work covers most of my health insurance costs, but I don't have a
pension (aside from my own investment accounts) though I'd assume OP doesn't
either. It's definitely a lucrative choice if you don't have kids, but it
still might be even if you do and you're smart about how you live.

~~~
lm28469
Commute time, working hours, vacation time, job safety, there are many thing
to take into consideration.

I'm not saying one is objectively better, it all boils down to personal
choices, but it's much more complex than "Go to SV and make 10x the salary".

I worked in mountain view before, now I'm living 300 meters from my office in
central Berlin paying <20% of my salary in rent, I'm missing the 365 days of
sun but other than that I don't think anything changed for the worse.

------
chvid
Out of curiosity. Where did you migrate from? I don't think France is the
place if you want to make big bucks as a software developer.

~~~
lm28469
Well, money isn't everything.

Despite all the bad things the US has to say about socialism it made France a
really nice spot for "workers". Working conditions/hours, job safety, amount
of vacation days, education, health, parental leave, retirement, overall
quality of life, &c.

If you want to create a multi billion $ company, get absurd amount of
investors money and don't like taxes you probably should look somewhere else.

~~~
chvid
Well. I am based in Denmark. And we get a lot migration here from Southern
Europe because young people can't get a foothold in a labour market dominated
by trade unions.

~~~
jmnicolas
They can't get a foothold in a labour market where there are no jobs.

------
auiya
Relocate to a city in which the cost of living is heroically expensive. You'll
earn much more than 2500€/month.

------
aliswe
What's your area of expertise?

~~~
raejumping
I have a software engineering degree.

Good with front-end (mainly React.js but also anything JavaScript), done a lot
of back-end as well (Java Spring, Node, PHP) but i'm willing to pivot
completely.

~~~
sumo89
Move to London, there's tons of places hiring for people with React experience
and it shouldn't be hard to find somewhere paying £50k + if you've gone some
years experience.

~~~
shinryuu
I'd recommend not moving to London. Three reasons. 1. brexit kerfuffle, 2.
London is way too big commuting is a killer. 3. Even though you earn more, it
doesn't make up for the living costs really.

------
franze
Where in France?

~~~
raejumping
Sophia Antipolis

~~~
BoumTAC
42k in Sophia Antipolis seems like a really good salary for a 2 years
experience javascript dev.

I don't think you can go really higher. If you want you will need to move to
Berlin or London I think

------
fargo
Move to London

------
theredbox
I am sorry to say this but europeans are delusional and naive. The only time
my quality of life improved was when I got a better paycheck not your
"socialist" perks.

When I worked in Vienna for €55k/pa my life was not really that comfortable.It
was balancing on the verge of good enough or not saving anything every month.
I did not get ANY, literally ANY feeling that I am getting enough for the
taxes I paid on this income. The doctors were good enough, the transportation
was good enough, the living condition were good enough BUT that's about it.
Getting a higher salary was almost impossible but even if i did i would pay
much higher taxes and would become too expensive for the company.

I moved to Seoul for $100k/pa and my life is MUCH better here all things
considered.

Dont get fooled by socialism and always put your interests first.

~~~
muzani
Depends which part of Europe. My friends in UK have nothing but praise for
their socialism.

But I think it works well for the people who plan to live and grow up there,
no so much for the people who can get a $100k job in Seoul lol.

