
Apply HN: – Linkedin without the spam - vs2370
Problem : Only professional networking site out there is also the biggest spammer. Mainly because it serves to Sales and Recruiters more than it does to Users<p>Solution :
A place where users can do the following :
1. Publish their profile, interest and recent work. Ex
direct stream to github projects
blog articles about your work<p>2. Create forms that others need to fill in before inviting. Ex :
DirectConnectForm - just how do i know you field
HireMe form - mandatory fields like company name, comp, location, etc
SellMe form - Product, problem it solves, pricing, demo link, etc
Other customized forms.<p>3. People who are interested to connect with you need to go through one of the forms. These forms define the edge of the graphs
======
Gustomaximus
Here's my free idea to LinkedIn or any substitute - allow people to place a
price per contacting them. Some people can leave it as an open platform.
Others can say for $5 or $50 they will read correspondence. Some CEO can put
their price at $1000+ or whatever they think an email is worth for reading.
This solves the issue of not everyones time is worth the same, yet inmail
credits are priced equally no-matter who you contact.

The business can clip X% of any earnings. Everyone is contactable at a price
level they are happy to read emails as they are being paid to do so.
Recruiters can still contact you but now they cant spam, or to do so has
significant costs. Personally I'd be happy to pay a few bucks for the
occasional non-contact message I send for business purposes as these usually
have an expected payoff, and the person knows you're a bit more
committed/serious too.

~~~
overdrivetg
There's something there, although I've thought a lot about this too and here's
_my_ free idea for @vs2370 or LinkedIn: let me control _how many_ job
opportunities I receive (unlimited, 1/day, 1/week, 1/mo, etc), then _auction
off_ those slots to companies/recruiters.

Really, what I want is the _best_ offer every so often to keep my head in the
market, and (I assume) the amount recruiters would pay to contact me is
basically meaningless to me but nontrivial at scale for the platform.

Or maybe Dutch auction and send me the top 3, then I can ignore them if I want
but I can at least pick my favorite(s) to give some signal back upstream for
what kinds of jobs I might actually be looking for (or let me "thumbs up" any
that are particularly interesting, etc), even if I don't actually respond to
that individual contact.

~~~
vs2370
thanks for sharing your thoughts. Its a great idea. One thing that I was
thinking was to provide ability to recruiters to push jobs to my job stream
but based on my filters/preferences a recommendation engine will sort them and
also collapse them if they are irrelevant(like some quora answers) .. that way
limiting how many jobs I would take in my feed is also one of the parameters

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nlh
I'll ask the same questions / give the same advice I give friends who propose
ideas like this:

* Social networks are tough, tough, tough. There are so many subtle UX issues (why did Facebook work but Friendster fail? Why did MySpace work for a while but ultimately fail?) and there's the ultimate chicken-and-egg problem. Do you really, truly understand why your idea will win?

* Do you think that you really need the YC Fellowship? Will that actually help you? What will you use the $ for?

As @patio11 tweeted the other night:

[https://twitter.com/patio11/status/717474850927808512](https://twitter.com/patio11/status/717474850927808512)

"It has never in the history of mankind been cheaper to make software. You
don't need funding you need a day job at McDonalds."

* I think your best bet - if you really believe in this idea - is to build a prototype on your own, show the world why you've built a better LinkedIn, and show us / investors / YC why your professional social network is better than LinkedIn, and back it up with hard growth numbers.

If this 'Apply HN' instead said something like:

"So we have an idea - it's LinkedIn without the spam. We built a prototype,
and we've gotten 50,000 people in the < whatever > business community to use
it. They love it. We're growing within this niche at 20% per week. But it's
only two of us, and we need to grow. So here we are -- we'd love the YC
Fellowship so we can put some real effort into X, then Y, and finally Z."

Do that, and you've got a winner.

My $0.02. Discount as you will, and best of luck to your team!

~~~
vs2370
Great 2 cents !! I agree that social networks are tough. I did a whole course
studying them. But the idea I am proposing is more of a community than a
social network, although community aren't easier either.

Agreed again,I do not need the YC funding. Although the advice,resource and
the environment that it provides can be incredibly valuable. Having said that
everyday there are great companies built outside of YC so yes will still give
this a shot anyway

Yes but I just had this idea few days ago and with a full time job have just
got some wireframes and data models done. I did not want to miss on Apply HN
thread and the valuable feedback here. For example from one of the comments
here I already changed one of my data models.

Also I am one man team right now :) so I realized from the feedback here that
I would need a UI or hopefully a front-end UI founder on this.

I hope to move from Apply HN to Show HN. Thanks again

~~~
seekingcharlie
If you're interested, I'd love to help on the UI/front-end, potentially as a
founder.

Email is in my profile.

~~~
vs2370
Sure, will email you

~~~
henryzhang0304
Actually I just applied for the yc summer batch with an idea about recruiting
tech. Haven't heard back from them yet. I'm still looking for reliable co-
founders. If you are (or anyone is) interested in a conversation, let's talk.
My email is in my profile. If you google that, you'll find my LinkedIn
profile.

~~~
vs2370
Hey thanks for your comment. Please share if you have any valuable inputs on
the original idea. It might not be clear but I am not trying to do any
recruiting tech idea. All the best with your search

~~~
henryzhang0304
So your idea is creating a LinkedIn without spam. My thread of thoughts is
like this: 1\. Spams are from recruiters. 2\. They are sending spams because
no matching system can connect them with right candidates efficiently. 3\. If
there is this kind of matching system, recruiters will be redundant. Right now
the decision makers are actually hiring managers and the team, recruiters can
only filter obviously unqualified candidates, which is achievable with
algorithms. 4\. Eventually, why do we need recruiters then? 5\. A more
aggressive version of your website is similar to my idea, a LinkedIn (but
better) without recruiters. 6\. How to monetize this website since we cannot
expect hiring team to do all the recruiting? We deliver a LinkedIn integrated
with job boards and ATS and we charge enterprises. That's why I called it
recruiting tech, not merely a website. 7\. Actually, we can add many other
ideal features.

Another obvious issue with today's recruiting is that every giant wants to
maintain a talent pool, so they throw all kinds of events, and recruiters are
helping with this. however, if they are able to socialize their candidate
database attached with ATS, and keep them updated, I believe they are more
than happy to. I think both your idea and mine is a good angle to solve this
problem.

Anyway, let me know if you're interested in working together.

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zeeshanm
I bet LinkedIn was not started with the intent to allow spammers to take over.
It became a business need over time as the result of being a for-profit
enterprise. Starting projects with a noble cause is a good idea but one also
has to maintain them for continued growth.

~~~
vs2370
Great point and I agree to some extent. But take the example of Medium vs
tumblr(or blogger). Eventually they both have to monetize but it is upto what
compromises the business is willing to make. And like I said the platform at
some point started serving more to sales and recruiters and linkedin employees
themselves have lost motivation to have a completed profile

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cpach
Some thoughts/advice: IMHO, what Linkedin really misses is a good community. I
know there are different groups on there but my impression is that they are of
really low quality and the UI/UX is really lacking. I never find it worthwhile
to try discussing anything on Linkedin. As it is today, LI seems to be used
primarily by recruiters and they are ”merely” middlemen. A ”Linkedin killer”
should place the customer (i.e. the people it wants to help being successful)
in the front seat. A replacement for Linkedin need to find incentives for
professionals to visit the site no only for the purpose of applying to a job.
How else would you make the ”gainfully employed” visit your site and
participate? Keep in mind that most people are not constantly looking for new
jobs, so if that’s the only purpose of the site some users will visit too
infrequently to build a good community feeling. Personally, I would love to
have a good forum for discussing topics related to working in the tech/IT
fields. (E.g. salary negotation, how to collaborate successfully within a
company, career advancement, etc.) HN fills this need to some extent, but it’s
mostly focused on ”news” articles. Reddit’s subreddits are generally either
too silent or to noisy. Anyone trying to build a community today would
probably be well served by studying the principles behind HN and the UI of
Discourse(.org). Creating a real ”Facebook for professionals” would not be
easy, but could really be a hit if it’s done right.

~~~
jpindar
I go to LinkedIn when I'm not looking for work. For some professions, at
least, they do have great people and great discussions - but limited by the
horrible UI/UX.

~~~
vs2370
I do too. i like some of the pulse/blog post articles from influencers. But
lesser so since they opened it to everybody the quality plummeted and now i
see articles from people I did not even know I was connected. Some of them are
job postings, real estate postings or a redirect to some other website.

~~~
jpindar
True. And that's part of the bad UI - there's no good way to filter different
types of content, and the group moderation system doesn't work too well.

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tmaly
I would prefer an anonymous employer/recruiter agent and an anonymous job
seeker agent. The job seeker agent contains certain well defined constraints
such as area=New York salary > 100k USD skillset=Java industry
IN('medical','biotech') status=active

then the employer agents can search for active seekers or passive seekers and
present some detailed information about the position. If the seeker is
interested, they make contact, if not the employer agent moves on unless told
to check back.

~~~
vs2370
great idea..took note

~~~
tmaly
I originally tried to start a startup related to recruiting. I interviewed 40
recruiters. I could not find any specific pattern, so I moved on to other
things.

~~~
pavornyoh
I said this before. The recruiters are not the problem as they are likely not
going to give you a lot of info. for fear of losing out.

It is the users you have to talk to. I have spent countless hours talking to
users and employers over the last 8 months as I am doing something similar to
OP. There are so many changes they will like to see with some voiced out here
in the thread. There are also many ways to monetize as the employers I spoke
with are frustrated and willing to pay for the right service that yield
results.

------
tobinharris
Spam wouldn't be spam if it was relevant. Could the forms constrain the types
of enquiry to only stuff you're interested in?

~~~
vs2370
Yes thats the idea. If spam is of your interest then it does not qualify as
spam. Yes the user can at anytime activate/deactivate/modify the form. Not
looking for new opportunities at all, deactivate hireme form. Interested in
buying a BI product, have a sellme form, etc

------
rygine
I was thinking about this exact same thing a while ago. My biggest problem
with LinkedIn is that you can't enabled "Do Not Disturb" and prevent InMail.
The chicken and egg problem is real, so is the monetization. Money from
recruiters won't come until you have users, right? Would users be willing to
spend a small amount of money for a yearly subscription (for hosting their
profile)? First year free, perhaps?

I thought about allowing users to "opt-in" to the network when they are
interested in being contacted. Privacy and data ownership are another big
concern of mine. Should advanced users be able to host their own profiles (no
fees ever) and connect to the network when they want to be reached for
opportunities?

~~~
vs2370
Ya monetization can be tricky but to keep the platform user centric it would
be nice to not charge users at all. Also not spamming users is very important.
I think there will be other monetization opportunities without compromising on
basic principles. But definitely easier said than done.

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stevekemp
I keep revisiting this idea myself. I figured a suitable prototype would just
let you :

* Create a profile.

* Record where you've worked.

* Post small "updates". Which would be visible to "connections".

That would be the core of the service and the job-hunting stuff would be
kinda-seperate.

The problem is twofold: scaling and getting users. If you have no users then
the system is futile (I setup a dating site once, which struggled due to lack
of users. You join? No users in your city? Never return). On the other hand if
you suddenly have 50,000 users you system will struggle if you're doing it on
the cheap with a simple virtual machine. You need to plan for rapid
scalability but assume you'll get none.

~~~
vs2370
Yes jotting down notes from this thread to build a MVP. Essentially I wish to
target one particular vertical(engineers) or segment(students) of users. Also
in case of engineers, let them import their github data or simply allow them
to upload their work in files.

Regarding the lack of users, I agree that deserted website is not ideal. But I
think it should initially go from a individual centric website and organically
evolve into a community

------
buss
How will you target people who are more-or-less well served by linkedin?

> Ex direct stream to github projects blog articles about your work

The vast majority of people won't have this, what's the value for those
people?

How will you make money?

~~~
vs2370
Great questions 1\. Github projects are just one example. Other example might
be for a journalist, his article ; for a photographers, his 500px or flickr
stream, for a researchers, his courses, university or google scholor links.
Thats the whole point I think linkedin tries to be too generic for its users.

2\. Although we have to start somewhere and engineers and tech people are
easier to start with hence github

3\. Monetization is something we do think about in terms of areas that would
not compromise with the premise of the network i.e users first. For example if
the contact form works, recruiters will pay depending on how many
forms/invites they can send, so like 25 free per month but then pay for next 5
till you hit the monthly cap(Yes cap please). But needs more thinking here

------
hk__2
How do you plan to motivate recruiters to join the platform? Having to fill a
different form to reach each person means it’d take years to recruit people,
no? Why not e.g. fill one form once and for all?

~~~
vs2370
Great question. We believe the response rate will motivate them. If I get a
well formed personalized message from a recruiter on linkedin, I always
respond even when I am not looking. yes there are some assumptions here but I
think the response rate from quality candidates that recruiters get out of
linkedin is way lower.

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sedzia
I know 2 from Berlin

[http://4scotty.com](http://4scotty.com) and
[http://honeypot.io](http://honeypot.io)

~~~
vs2370
4scotty is different, honeypot seems to be down. I will check them again, thnx

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sharemywin
How do you solve the chicken and egg problem? What's the benefit of being one
of the first 1000 users?

~~~
vs2370
OMG I am glad you asked that. Like traditional idea is to solve one side
first. For first 1000 users there are only fellow chickens. So it is just
engineers sharing work and profiles with fellow engineers. Once we have enough
chickens, eggs will start showing up. Then chickens decide how eggs contact
them.

chicken - users eggs - sales, recruiters, etc

~~~
notahacker
The problem is that the spam - especially LinkedIn-generated invite spam - is
_how LinkedIn grew_.

There are other professional networks out there. You just haven't heard of
most of them.

The trouble is that respecting people's right not to bombarded with cookie-
cutter emails means that your social network struggles to even attract large
numbers of chickens, and the eggs aren't likely to be interested because the
same people can generally be reached more easily on the much-bigger LinkedIn.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's plenty of scope for a better professional
network site than LinkedIn (they don't even do job boards well, which is
frankly weird given their unrivalled candidate metadata) But sadly, _antipathy
to spamming_ is the differentiator that's _least_ likely to result in a
successful mainstream social network.

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vishalzone2002
given recent frustration out of linkedin spamming this would definitely not
hurt.. do you have a prototype ?

~~~
vs2370
thnx .. yes i started thinking what if we reversed the selling process and let
sales and recruiter do more work instead of simply spamming a mass message ..
just wireframing so far.. we did not know Apply HN will come up :)

~~~
vishalzone2002
it will be fun to see how linkedin would be built under YC leadership too

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George_MacApp
Good one :)

~~~
vs2370
Thanks :)

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maverick_iceman
I think it's high time someone disrupted Linkedin. Awful UI, spammy posts,
pestering recruiters - there's a long list of problems with this site. One
problem would be though how you plan to get a critical mass of users? Linkedin
has become the default professional network for most people. How are you going
to convince them to open another account?

~~~
vs2370
Thanks and great you share the pain. Critical mass of users We are trying to
use linkedin :). We are researching the most active set of users on linkedin
(apart from sales and recruiters) and thinking to cater to one vertical to
start with so maybe engineers and technology people or new graduate students

Fighting linkedin - Agreed. Its a gigantic company and a very difficult fight
with amazing engineering talent. Convincing users to open another professional
site account is not our value proposition, instead creating a product where
they find a value proposition different from Linkedin's is where we want to
concentrate.

Also, YC's and HN's guidance can help here.

Please share if you have any ideas too on your second question

