
Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites - artsandsci
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amazon-project-kuiper-internet-satellites-fcc,39805.html#xtor=RSS-5
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throw0101a
At what point should we start worrying about Kessler Syndrome?

> _The Kessler syndrome (also called the Kessler effect,[1][2] collisional
> cascading or ablation cascade), proposed by the NASA scientist Donald J.
> Kessler in 1978, is a scenario in which the density of objects in low Earth
> orbit (LEO) is high enough that collisions between objects could cause a
> cascade in which each collision generates space debris that increases the
> likelihood of further collisions.[3] One implication is that the
> distribution of debris in orbit could render space activities and the use of
> satellites in specific orbital ranges difficult for many generations.[3]_

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome)

~~~
djsumdog
I've heard that at least with the SpaceX satellites, they have full plans for
decommissioning with these satellites re-entering the atmosphere.

I do agree that this is a real concern though, and we'd hope there's pretty
careful consideration, considering the sheer number of satellites being
launched. Still, space is big .. really big, even the space just above our
planet.

I don't put it past humanity to not fuck up space. After all, look at all the
plastics and waste in the oceans. Hopefully all these companies and FCC
regulators are thinking far ahead, and require the right designs and safety
measures to make sure we don't end up enclosed in a float garbage pile.

~~~
regnerba
Correct on the decommissioning plans. SpaceX lists out in their FCC filings a
number of things including how long it will take them to actively de-orbit
satellites, how long for them to de-orbit if they lose contact/control, and
also how much of the material will survive re-entry.

I have read conflicting things so don't hold me to this, but on article I read
said they delayed adding the laser links to the current batch of Starlink
satellites because of concerns over how much would survive the de-orbit
maneuver.

~~~
coolspot
What I heard they launched them ASAP because otherwise they would lose
spectrum license.

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davidlumley
Private corporations owning more and more utility infrastructure really
concerns me.

Is there a world where nations band together and launch this as public
infrastructure rather than private corporations lobbying a USA government
agency for permission?

~~~
kodz4
Get specific about the concern, otherwise it's easy to get afraid about
everything.

Govt's hardly own telecom infra, it's all in private hands. And when orgs get
too big for their boots, things like this happen-
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System)

~~~
davidlumley
> Get specific about the concern, otherwise it's easy to get afraid about
> everything.

There are many reasons to be afraid about a private corporation from a country
with little regulation providing a utility to areas with no other choice.

If Amazon was sponsoring this, that's one thing, but them owning the network
raises red flags for me surrounding: 1) Privacy 2) The potential for anti
competitive practices 3) Quality of service / expected lifetime of service

I simply don't trust Amazon (or any other large private company) to do
anything else than look out for their bottom line when push comes to shove.

> Govt's hardly own telecom infra, it's all in private hands

I'm old enough to remember when Australia did:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telstra#Privatisation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telstra#Privatisation)

Since Telstra was privatised, any impetus to upgrade Australia's struggling
networks has gone out the window and when they _do_ end up upgrading capacity,
it is usually as part of a Government project. All in all, tax payers still
foot the bill to improve utilities while a private company furthers their
monopoly.

~~~
noir_lord
Same thing happened in the UK with BT.

Usual privatise the profits, socialise the costs.

~~~
rayiner
This is false. When BT was privatized, the UK government sold the shares and
collected the proceeds. That’s not “socializing the costs” any more than in
any other divestiture transaction.

Additionally, these companies went from requiring huge operating subsidies to
becoming net contributors to the exchequer through paying taxes:
[https://www.cps.org.uk/research/the-performance-of-
privatisa...](https://www.cps.org.uk/research/the-performance-of-
privatisation-vol-ii-privatisation-and-its-effect-on-the-exchequer).

> When the Conservatives came to power in 1979, the major nationalised
> companies were receiving large sums of taxpayers’ money. NERA’s report
> reveals that in the year to March 1980, the 33 companies it examined were
> contributing nothing to the exchequer: in fact they absorbed a total of £483
> million between them, including £1,199 million in loan finance. British
> Steel was one of the worst companies requiring £1,020 million in the
> financial year 1980/81 on a turnover of just under £3 billion (thereby
> earning itself a place in the Guinness Book of Records).

> This dismal state of affairs has been reversed. In 1987, the 33 companies
> examined by NERA contributed £8,374 million to the exchequer. Net
> contributions have continued at a high level in each of the last eight
> years.

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tectonic
It seems like no coincidence that Amazon is also building a ground station
network as part of AWS. [https://aws.amazon.com/ground-
station/](https://aws.amazon.com/ground-station/)

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strikelaserclaw
Anyone wanna offer me their hypothesis on what Amazon and other tech companies
gain from offering internet to people who probably aren't valuable consumers?

~~~
dharmab
One of Starlink's planned markets is global high frequency trading. The
latency of radio and laser transmission in atmosphere and space is much lower
than undersea fiber optic cables. (Light moves significantly slower through
glass than through air.) Even with the longer distance and retransmission they
stand a good chance of being lower latency across oceans than undersea cables.

~~~
gpm
I originally though this would be a good market, and have voiced that opinion
on HN, but afaik SpaceX has never said anything about it.

Someone has since pointed out to me that HFT is currently done by bouncing
microwaves off the atmosphere. This, unlike fiber, should be faster than
SpaceX's constellation making that business unlikely to work out. (Possibly
unless high bandwidth almost as low latency is useful).

~~~
dharmab
Bouncing waves off the ionosphere has different ranges depending on the time
of day. Do you have more info on how that's currently used? I'm curious to
learn more.

~~~
gpm
Not really, sorry

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gamegoblin
I wonder if it would ever make sense to set up some "IXP satellites" so that
Amazon and SpaceX's (and whoever else enters this space) various LEO networks
could switch in space.

~~~
portyllo
Developing compatible systems would be very expensive. There are very few
standards in Space Comms., specially for satellite-to-satellite Comms.

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robocat
I am looking forward to when Huawei put up their global network... Charge zero
for the uplink devices if you buy the first 6 months up front using bitcoin.
With free Huaflix and sports channels (unlicenced, use at consumers own risk).

~~~
AFascistWorld
And be perma-banned for accessing harmful content.

~~~
stefan_
No, it's just negative social score, so you'll lose your rented place and
can't take public transport anymore.

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drewbt
Surely every country around the world needs to be involved in approving
something like this. Amazon does not get my vote to put anything that could
potentially become space junk in the air above South Africa.

Not yet at least. What is the benefit to humanity as a whole?

~~~
VvR-Ox
I am with you here but:

1\. It's never about what benefits humanity, it's just about money most of the
times

2\. Every country and probably several companies of each country will do this
as long as we are the divided world we have to live in

3\. Just like the internet never became the awesome tool one might see in
series like Star Trek (benefit of humanity & stuff like that) something like
this will never be that awesome and useful. Until there'd be a market that
forces people/companies to act like that. So I think our world is a place
where incentives lead us to do the wrong things that actually hinder humanity
in it's progress and positive development.

~~~
znpy
> 2\. Every country and probably several companies of each country will do
> this as long as we are the divided world we have to live in

I really hope that a “world government” never happens, it is too much of a
risk.

Consider the US for example: once the land of the free, it has become a land
of espionage, lack of personal privacy and persecution. This hasn’t begun with
Trump, but it became a lot more evident with him as a president.

What I want to say is that the risk of a global government going rogue is too
high.

I hope that we will always have a plurality of nations and ideas, living
peacefully with one another.

~~~
VvR-Ox
In my opinion this is the only solution that will lead to success of the human
race. For me that is not destroying our planet, evolving in the "right"
direction (more education, more science and especially more ethics).

At the moment we kind of burn our resources without need and our nations
compete which creates more unnecessary costs and suffering than good outcomes.

We live in a world where you wonder every day why things are solved in that
particular stupid way instead of doing things the smartest possible way to
really serve humanity as a whole. The fact that it's more important than
anything else to "grow" money out of nothing speaks for itself.

What is the situation like, right now? Several countries with atom bombs "go
rogue". They do what they want and behave like little children who's toys have
been stolen (USA, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Great Britain...).

They screw their own people and take away the wealth and stability they
enjoyed for some time now, they increase surveillance and take away the
(human) rights the people have fought for many decades and they engage in wars
and battles that serve no one on this planet but companies who produce weapons
and political agendas of maniacs who shouldn't do this job in the first place.

Of course the danger that this one govt could do something bad is also present
but at least we'd have a single point of failure that we could get rid of in
case of emergency. Now your only chance is to migrate to some other country in
the hope that you'll be given a chance to start a new life there and that no
one does something that will force you to leave, again.

Wars, Nationalism, tax escaping, finance, poverty .... nearly everything could
be solved in a better way when there'd be no seperate govt's who all believed
they were the godsend rulers of earth.

I hope some force some day is just strong enough to force everyone into such a
system as I don't think nations will be willing to give up their sovereignty
that easily. Let it be some aliens - as long as they are intelligent and act
rationally it's far better for us than the current unbearable state we have to
endure.

Without that there will never be peace on earth. Plurality and ideas come from
people and not from states. You can see that today e.g. in countries who are
more open minded and welcome people with different believes.

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jammygit
Amazon ring and echo captures a lot of data, but imagine how much more they
get as an isp?

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jonplackett
Are there any international agreements covering this stuff?

What if China decide they want to launch another 3000 and Russia want to
launch another 3000 and India and Japan and whoever else?

~~~
chisleu
not a problem if they are maintained in the way the SpaceX sats are going to
be.

~~~
penagwin
> not a problem if they are maintained in the way the SpaceX sats are going to
> be.

Aka - Not a problem if they are well thought out, well planned, and
maintained.

Are there international agreements that specify this is the case? Just
curious, real question.

~~~
jonplackett
Yeah ditto. And are there agreements to stop them interfering with each other?
I get that space is really really big but surely there needs to be a way to
coordinate so much stuff up there.

~~~
syedkarim
The ITU is the international body that assists with coordination among nations
and their satellite systems.

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sneak
The amazing thing to me is that this article does not include the words
“spacex” or “starlink” once in the webpage.

Do you have to pay extra for that sort of press hit?

~~~
6nf
It's a press release

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chiph
Iridium has global coverage (you can make phone calls from the South Pole) but
isn't LEO so there's a latency issue. Starlink is LEO and will have faster
rates & lower latency, but won't have global coverage since the orbits don't
go over the poles (sorry, Amundsen-Scott!).

What about the proposed Amazon (Blue Origin?) system?

~~~
syedkarim
Iridium is definitely LEO.

~~~
__d
Iridium orbits are ~780km (485 mi). Starlink lower tier orbits are ~340km (210
mi).

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megous
So what it's gonna be like - latency and bandwidth?

~~~
ehsankia
For latency at LEO, we're looking at below 50ms, going as low as 20ms. For
bandwidth, it obviously depends on load and usage. SpaceX's satellites each
can handle 1 Tbps, so it comes down to how they distribute and price it. At
100Mbps and 3000 satellites, that's roughly 10 million users. Obviously not
all users will be using that much data simultaneously.

~~~
shaklee3
SpaceX satellites cannot do 1Tbps, and it's irresponsible to keep saying this.
See the MIT study. They estimate ~20Tbps of _total_ capacity for 4000
satellites.

~~~
ehsankia
Can you attach said MIT study?

~~~
portyllo
[http://systemarchitect.mit.edu/docs/delportillo19a.pdf](http://systemarchitect.mit.edu/docs/delportillo19a.pdf)

I am one of the authors.

This was donde in Sept 2018 so its a little bit outdated by now.

~~~
shaklee3
Awesome work. Are you going to update it for the 10,000 satellites + Amazon?
I'm guessing the answer is no.

Also, are you looking for a job after graduation? If so, please email me :)

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DiseasedBadger
The Gilded Age had _nothing_ on this. Two billionaires are battling over
ownership of communication in the sky.

Is the winner "Prince of The Air"?

~~~
aalleavitch
The various national governments of the world better wise up pretty soon to
the fact that they are losing all of their leashes on these beasts they've
been riding. Sooner than we think pure profit-seeking entities will be on even
footing with organizations that are (or at least are supposed to be) deriving
their just powers from the consent of the governed. This is a deeply sobering
thought.

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thefourthchime
Who else thinks these systems deliver wireless high speed Internet faster than
5G?

~~~
ehsankia
It's not really about speed in my opinion, it's about worldwide availability.
5G requires a node at every few hundred meters, so it will probably never go
beyond very dense city centers.

These LEO constellations on the other end can provide connectivity in the most
rural and remote places. It would be a game changer for planes and cruises for
example. Tesla could include a receiver in every car giving you connection
anywhere you drive, etc.

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knbrlo
You’ll be able to summon Alexa from anywhere... without even owning an Amazon
device! :)

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ryanmarsh
Upon whose rockets?

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trungvmn
Referring to Hoi An, we cannot help but mention the shimmering old town nights
in the brilliant lantern festival, especially on the night of Trung Thu full
moon. This has become a feature that takes place monthly by the city and makes
many tourists stay when having the opportunity to travel to Hoi An.
[https://privatecartransferhoian.com/hoi-an-lantern-
festival/](https://privatecartransferhoian.com/hoi-an-lantern-festival/)

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luizfzs
They're just copying SpaceX. That's disappointing.

~~~
new_realist
OneWeb launched before SpaceX, but they’re all copying Teledesic/Iridium.

------
ianai
Should anybody be putting satellites up without some credible plan for
decommissioning them from the atmosphere?

~~~
gamegoblin
If this is anything like SpaceX's constellation, the plan is that the orbits
will naturally decay in < 10 years and they will burn up in the atmosphere
upon re-entry.

~~~
HillaryBriss
IMHO, it would be nice if the decay orbit for each satellite were tracked
accurately by Amazon and published beforehand. If these satellites truly do
burn up completely -- great. But if they don't it would be great to hold
Amazon accountable for any problems and for waste cleanup.

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
> accountable for any problems and for waste cleanup

These are companies, not people... $10 buck says if one of these things hits
your roof, Amazon will just give you a $100 gift card to Amazon.com

~~~
HillaryBriss
+1 lol. yeah. I guess that's better than nothing.

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badrabbit
Maybe it's time to talk about tech-free preserves established by international
treaties.

E.g.: sections of each continent and ocean can be declared tech free where
modern technology is forbidden on earth,sea or land.

This is so we don't lose and forget the nature that forged the present.

~~~
aalleavitch
My knee jerk reaction to this was negative, but I really do think having some
sense of preservation of the ways we lived in the past, for educational
reasons if nothing else, is valuable. A living museum if you will.

~~~
badrabbit
The first thing I thought of is how microplastics are everywhere now. A
preserve like the one I suggested would somewow ideally be protected even from
things like that. Future researchers will have a good natural frame of
reference to study various unnatural phenomena.

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unsungNovelty
There goes my privacy!

I can't even think about a horrible company like Amazon being an ISP too!
Think about all the privacy issues that we are going to have!

But if they do this, this is going to be good for the US broadband customers
who don't have internet currently. Not to mention they are stuck with monopoly
companies without any competition and options. This is going to wake Comcast,
AT&T, Verizon, Sprint and Charter!

But Amazon is going to screw your net neutrality in the most crazy way once
the initial period of cheap plans gets over and they have a strong monopoly of
user base!

~~~
aralia
It’s not just the idea that Amazon is going to be an ISP that you should worry
about when it comes to their effect on internet privacy. They also recently
purchased Eero.

------
reaperducer
Welcome to the dystopian future where no human anywhere on Earth can look up
and see an authentic sky, as their ancestors did.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/science/starlink-
spacex-a...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/science/starlink-spacex-
astronomers.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share)

And thanks to SpaceX (and now Amazon), astronomers will now have to do their
observations from space. If only there was a way to get telescopes up there.
Oh, wait... SpaceX just happens to have a way to solve the problem it created!

~~~
the8472
What's particulary dystopic about it? Preserving nature is valuable because we
rely on the ecosystem, you can't really make that argument for the dead
emptiness that is space.

Ubiquitous space access even is a common theme in scifi utopias!

~~~
Waterluvian
I think it's close but missing one really key point. Imagine if this was being
done by some non profit international consortium funded by many nations.

~~~
sigstoat
then it would go over budget by 100x, and if it ever did finish, users would
be subjected to the intersection of all of those countries moralizing content
bans?

