
“Breathability” Comparison of Commercial Outerwear Shell Layers (2018) [pdf] - luu
https://www.shelbyoutdoor.com/images/support/breathability.pdf
======
mrob
This study is older than 2018. I used it to decide on eVENT (terrible
unsearchable name) fabric when I bought waterproof clothing over 7 years ago.

I need breathable waterproof clothing because I cycle as my main form of
transportation, including in bad weather. I find eVENT breathability adequate
for staying dry while cycling at a relaxed pace (12mph average over fairly
flat terrain on a touring bike), but insufficient at my more usual pace of
about 15mph (same conditions). If there's only light rain I'll open pockets to
get unimpeded air flow, which makes a big difference. If I was buying again
I'd get something with specifically designed vents for more airflow. There's
probably no fabric that can keep you dry during fast cycling while fully
enclosed. If you only ride slowly or use electrical assistance then eVENT is
likely good enough.

~~~
amluto
I also referenced this study when I bought ski wear. eVENT indeed seems pretty
good, although they used to have an obnoxious “direct venting” marketing
scheme in which they didn’t allow vent zippers because the fabric breathes so
well. This is, of course, nonsense.

It’s worth noting that, in cold dry weather, you don’t necessarily want
maximum breathability. If the humidity inside your jacket drops too much, then
your skins loses a lot of moisture, which dries you out and also means you
lose a lot of heat to evaporative cooling.

So the Gore-Tex XCR curve might actually be good: it transmits vapor better
when humidity is high.

~~~
jupp0r
In cold, dry weather you shouldn't wear a waterproof jacket.

~~~
senderista
But you should usually wear a windproof layer, and a waterproof layer serves
as such, even if it's overkill.

~~~
superseeplus
If you are out in cold, dry and windy conditions, then you can wear a jacket
made from a highly breathable but windproof material. The one I have is made
from Gore Windstopper.

~~~
senderista
I prefer to layer a very thin windshirt under my insulating layer.

------
m12k
Combine this with measured water resistance, to help me find 'the most
breathable material that will stand up to X minutes of rain', add data for
'crinkliness' and stretchability (even just your own qualitative scale), then
add affiliate links to actual products that use these materials and you've got
yourself a nice little side project to maybe generate a bit of passive income.

~~~
sgt101
So "just" three more experiments.

How much would the kit for each experiment cost? And how long would each test
last?

Could be a big investment for a bit of passive income.

~~~
Hello71
based on the sheer number of SEO hacking coupon sites and huge sponsorships
for coupon extensions, I'm going to wager a guess that you could earn a
significant amount of money if you could position yourself as the definitive
source on outerwear information.

------
et-al
I once undertook the task of searching for the mythical fabric that offered
breathability and water-resistance.

A big issue is that as your exertion increases, you sweat more and need more
breathability, compared to when you're sitting around. In addition,
breathability is hampered by the fabric's pores being clogged by dirt, body
oils, and just the fabric wetting out. As such, most fabrics are treated with
some DWR coating. But the DWR coating wears off over time and at-home
treatments never seemed to match what came from the factory.

Roughly a decade ago, eVent was supposed to be the wünderfabrik; and it did
offer more breathability than Gore-Tex by omitting a PU layer. However the PU
layer also prevented body oils from logging up the breathable membrane, so
ultimate eVent jackets would stop being breathable if you didn't keep them
clean.

Polartec Neoshell was also a runner up, but it never caught on big time; I
think due to durability issues.

Right now, Gore-Tex Shakedry is the talk around town, but I haven't worn
anything using it and stopped caring. The outdoor industry will always be
selling folks a golden fleece.

\- - -

Addendum: I am super glad about how breathability is now being addressed
beyond rainshells and fleeces. Patagonia's Nano-Air and Arc'tery's Atom
hoodies are two examples of light and breathable insulation layers that didn't
exist 10 years ago. They're great for moderate exertion activities.

If anyone wants to geek out more, I recommend reading:

Mark Verber's _What is Percent of Nakedness?_ \-
[https://verber.com/mark/outdoors/stash/patagonia-
testing.htm...](https://verber.com/mark/outdoors/stash/patagonia-testing.html)

Andy Kirkpatrick's (formerly psycho vertical) writings; mainly focused on
mountaineering. As such he has a lot of good advice for dressing for bad
conditions - [https://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles](https://andy-
kirkpatrick.com/articles)

Andrew Skurka's _Breathability: an explanation of its importance, mechanisms,
and limitations_ \- [https://andrewskurka.com/breathability-its-importance-
mechan...](https://andrewskurka.com/breathability-its-importance-mechanisms-
and-limitations/)

~~~
gonzo41
The design of the garment also comes into play in a big way. For things like
hiking and working in the rain, Pit Zips are vital and allow a greater level
of control than any magic fabric can offer.

------
Stratoscope
For something completely different, here is the non-breathable Stephenson's
Warmlite Vapor Barrier "No Sweat" Shirt:

[https://www.warmlite.com/product/no-sweat-
shirt/](https://www.warmlite.com/product/no-sweat-shirt/)

I bought one when I was into backpacking in the '70s but never really liked it
that much. I would be curious if anyone knows anything about these and their
"vapor barrier" idea.

I do have fond memories of their 1974 catalog (NSFW PDF):

[https://www.outinunder.com/sites/default/files/Warmlite%20Ca...](https://www.outinunder.com/sites/default/files/Warmlite%20Catalog%201974.pdf)

~~~
vineyardmike
Who makes a NSFW clothing catalogue?

~~~
PeterStuer
Naturism was pretty SFW before the resurgence of prudism.

~~~
Stratoscope
The nude photos in Stephenson's catalog would have been NSFW in 1974 too. You
wouldn't put one in a frame and keep it on your desk at work!

Not even if your boss was one of the cool people you might invite over for a
hot tub party.

------
moksly
Weird that no Scandinavian brands made it on this list, do Americans not buy
those? Stuff like the North Face is genuinely considered a pretty poor quality
brand here in Denmark. Typically North American brands lose these types of
tests by our consumer focused NGOs as well.

My inherited 150 year old Icelandic wool sweater is more water/wind resistant
than my Fjällraven Hard shell though. So maybe quality just isn’t really what
it was anywhere.

~~~
hdrujvw-4579
I bought a NF jacket thinking it would be something that could last me a good
5+ years. The inner padding around the collar just desintegrated after a few
weeks and looks like a white plastic band. The outer shell absorbs moisture
and is far from the water repellent/absorver it's advertized. Maybe I'm
chasing old unicorns but these "technical" brands are not what they used to be
say 20 years ago, despite their higher prices.

~~~
akvadrako
NorthFace has become a lifestyle brand, so they don’t have a lot of incentive
to make things technically good anymore.

If you want good technical clothes you need to pick brands that average people
don’t recognize, because they have an incentive.

~~~
NovemberWhiskey
I think it's fairer to say that TNF has expanded also to include a whole lot
of lifestyle clothing.

They continue to offer quite a lot of expedition-ready gear (tents, waterproof
shells, etc.) that's definitely not lifestyle stuff - mainly under the
"Summit" sub-brand.

e.g. does the shell have a hood that's sized to fit over a climbing helmet?
Probably "serious".

------
starpilot
Some of these don't exist anymore. Nextec from Patagonia, huh? I've given up
finding a breathable waterproof layer. If it's heavy rain then I accept I'll
get sweaty underneath, if it's cold then water resistant soft shells are
awesome.

~~~
int_19h
I experimented with different waterproof membranes a lot, and the one that
seems to really breathe the best not just on paper is Polartec NeoShell. It
also has a correspondingly lower waterproof rating, but still high enough to
be fully rainproof. The downside (or the upside, depending on your
perspective) is that it's not windproof - you can very much feel the gusts
going _through_ it. It's also not as sturdy as Gore-Tex.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
I‘ve heard reports [0] that Polartec NeoShell is not very durable. After a few
months of light usage, apparently the fabric develops cracks at the shoulders
and wrists.

[0] [https://www.bergfreunde.de/basislager/polartec-neoshell-
das-...](https://www.bergfreunde.de/basislager/polartec-neoshell-das-beste-
aus-zwei-welten/)

~~~
int_19h
My NeoShell items have 1-3 years of usage on them, without any cracks. This
looks like a single comment - more likely to be an issue with that particular
manufacturer or product.

------
arh68
Wow, this actually confirms my thoughts about my Columbia Omni-Tech, that
thing seems like the _least breathable_ jacket I've ever owned. Good thing it
has pit zips. It's like a cold rain jacket.

There seems to be 2 distinct categories: some fabric is asymmetric when it
comes to relative humidity, others stay constant (like Omni-Tech). The
asymmetrics become more breathable as humidity increases. Schoeller WB-Formula
starts off half as breathable as Omni-Tech at low humidity and at high
humidity comes down to match. But you've also got Gore-Tex XCR, which is more
breathable than O-T at even low humidity, and gets even more so as humidity
increases.

I've had a Columbia 3-in-1 with a softshell liner that I've really loved. It
can take about ¼" of rain, but isn't quite as warm as a fleece. I washed the
liner a bunch, but never washed the shell (still looks new, waterproof AFAIK).
I just bought myself a Marmot 3-in-1 for Christmas (unaware of all this
research). Shell is apparently Membrain, which is both _more and less
breathable_ than Omni-Tech (less when dry, more when humid).

"Asymmetric" breathability fabrics, most->least breathable: Gore-Tex XCR,
Entrant Dermizax, Gore-Tex, Membrain, Hydroseal, Sympatex, Conduit, Schoeller
WB-Formula. All these are more breathable when humid (opposite probably not
very useful).

"Symmetric" breathability fabric, most->least breathable: Expanded PTFE,
EVENT, Schoeller Dryskin Extreme, Entrant GII XT Laminate, Nextec, Lowe Alpine
Triplepoint, Omni-Tech.

The groups overlap, but symmetric fabrics are generally more breathable
overall (especially when dry, but even still when humid). Interesting.

------
Ididntdothis
Besides reading about them has anybody had first hand experience with
"breathable" stuff that actually keeps you dry in real rain? To me this stuff
seems like a mythical beast that is supposed to exist but I can never find.

~~~
DubiousPusher
I backpack in the Pacific Northwest and have hiked for hours in pouring rain
at temperatures of berween 40 and 80 degrees and have found a standard gortex
jacket by Marmot to be totally acceptable for this task.

On warm days I were just a base layer (the wickier the better) under the
jacket with all the air vents open. I sweat a lot so I need good airflow. I
imagine if you bike in similar conditions you'd need a better solution but
aside from a lot of gimmicks I'm not sure what would be better.

~~~
chrisseaton
> I backpack in the Pacific Northwest and have hiked for hours in pouring rain
> at temperatures of berween 40 and 80 degrees and have found a standard
> gortex jacket by Marmot to be totally acceptable for this task.

Aren't you sweating inside the jacket anyway due to hiking? So you're wet
inside whether you’re wearing a jacket or not? So what's the point in a
waterproof jacket?

I think it's best to just accept you're going to get wet, wear basic fabrics,
and practice wet-dry drills.

~~~
ip26
No, you get humid, but not wet when everything is working right. Your sweat
evaporates and you are not wet.

~~~
chrisseaton
Depends how fast you’re moving, what kind of climb you’re hiking up and what
kind of load, I guess, but I’ve been sweating out in a snow storm in Wales
when carrying a heavy pack moving at speed and I would not have wanted a
waterproof on.

~~~
ip26
Sure, you can sweat more than your jacket can transpire. In general though I
think you should strive to avoid liquid sweat in winter conditions, not just
"accept" it. Improve your layers, or your fitness, or reduce your load or
speed. Getting wet in winter can be dangerous.

~~~
chrisseaton
> reduce your load or speed

Not really an option if you need to be at a given place at a given time with
given equipment! That's why the military don't fight in waterproofs. They just
accept they're going to get wet and then practice disciplined wet-dry drills.

~~~
ip26
I thought we were talking about backpacking in the pacific northwest (or at
least other recreation). Obviously the military is a completely different
animal, and they do not care what I think.

------
specialist
What's a reasonable expectation for durability of these fabrics?

My most recent hydrophobic jackets were Rab (6 years) and Mountain Hard Gear
(2 years). While initially awesome, they've both eventually lost their
hydrophobic properties. The fabric treatments (NikWax Tech Wash), fastidiously
applied, don't work.

Should I just plan on buying a new jacket after X hours of use?

~~~
ip26
I'll note that I used to line dry hydrophobic jackets after washing, but that
was actually a mistake. The warmth in the dryer somehow anneals the DWR,
refreshing it. (This will no work forever, of course)

------
freetime2
I highly recommend spending a bunch of money on a well-constructed waterproof
shell. My last Gore-Tex jacket lasted 13 years before finally breaking down in
one of the pit zips. And pretty much every time I put it on, I was really glad
to have it for the comfort it provided in cold, wet, or windy conditions.

You just need to be realistic about what a “breathable” shell can do. If
you’re moving enough that you would be sweating without a shell, then of
course adding a shell is just going to make the situation much worse. In
practice this often means that I’ll be wearing just a thin base layer when I’m
actually moving, and often prefer to get rained on than drenched in my own
sweat. And then as soon as I stop and my body temperature starts to drop, the
shell and extra thermal layers come out.

To me breathability is less important than a number of other factors like hood
design, size, weight, durability, looks, how it feels against bare skin,
venting options, zippers, etc.

~~~
chrisseaton
Right - waterproof layers are for when you are _stationary_ only.

------
andrewgleave
Buffalo Systems kit has always been good for me. Wear it properly (next to
your skin) and even though it's not fully waterproof you will not get cold
which is the main thing. Bring a dry top to put on when you've finished and
done. Dries out really quickly and you can put it on wet without it feeling
cold.

~~~
PuffinBlue
I feel like this secret is being kept alive by a dwindling community
unfortunately. I have a great Montane Extreme Jacket, similar to the Buffalo
one but with a better hood and not a pullover smock. I had a Buffalo about 15
years ago too.

This move to Gore-Tex et al reminds me of what happened after the invention of
the trainer.

Trainers (sneakers) are everywhere now, and they get more and more complex
each year yet people get injured running in them just as easily.

A small sommunity kept alive the idea of running in minimal shoes, zero drop,
flat unpadded soles, and running like we did in the past.

Similarly, Gore-Tex came along and now we're obsessed with shedding the water
on the outer layer. The modern mantra is water must not penetrate under any
circumstance. There's a time and a place for that but in those conditions a
truly impermeable layer like a PU shell is better.

And so there's just a few of us who know that it's not necessarily preventing
all water ingress that's the goal - it's maintaining warmth, breathability,
comfort and having material that will dry quickly.

Maybe it's because of our climate in the UK but it's no accident Buffalo,
Montane, Mountain Equipment and Rab (all UK based companies) make 'Pile and
Pertex' colthing and now some exceptional Primaloft based synthetic shells -
The Mountain Equipment Citadel and Fitaroy Jackets, and the Montane Prism are
two I own and are every bit as good as Pile and Pertex but without the bulk.

It's good to know there are a few of us out there keeping the wisdom alive!

~~~
pbowyer
I'm in the UK too and it's been great to have so many local contributions in
this thread. I'm an enthusiastic walker (rambler?) and am always looking for
suitable clothing - not just for walking holidays, but for everyday, keeping
warm, dry and comfortable in variable weather and rain (lots of it this
Christmas!). Whether a stroll, hill climb, birdwatching or taking a dog for a
walk, getting sweaty or wet is what I'm always aiming to avoid.

> Maybe it's because of our climate in the UK

I do wonder if our climate is a bit "different" when it comes to outdoor
clothing. Are we more humid and damp than most of the USA and Europe? They do
great gear, but it often seems to assume a different environment (the alps) or
different climate (sun for X days, then rain for Y days). Gear for us, given
the small range of temperature variations and fast changes in the weather,
seems to have different requirements.

Thanks for recommending EDZ in another comment. I like the performance of
outdoor clothing but often don't want to look like an outdoor enthusiast
(because I merely walk a lot, and also want to blend in in towns).

Can you recommend any trousers that keep you dry(er) in showers, or dry
quickly once wet? I got caught in a squall on Exmoor today and soaked through.
Stayed warm in no small part thanks to a Trespass AT200 fleece (ridiculously
cheap for the performance) but warmer legs would be nice. For torrential rain
there's overtrousers, but I'm not a fan outside winter (too hot and sweaty).

~~~
PuffinBlue
I use Rohan Overlanders. They are pretty lightweight but warm enough when
moving. 6 pockets that fit an OS map :-)

They dry extremely quickly and you can give them a wash in tech wash to give
them a bit dwr. I think they hit a good balance of fast drying and warm enough
when moving.

But if it's going to be very wet and you know it then some simple baselayer
trousers with a brethable (read: air permeable, not just water vapour) shell
trouser, preferably with braces, is the way I go. eVent is great but so is
NeoShell I think it's called.

------
eledumb
Exactly why I love my lightweight extra large packable poncho.

It's completely water proof, but it's got a shit ton of ventilation, I can
wear exactly what I need to stay warm and if it starts raining, sleeting,
snowing, etc. on with the poncho, I stay dry and warm, all of me stays dry,
and not just my upper body.

I've actually done trail running in my poncho, but it's a pain, frankly most
people don't need all this "technology" to stay dry and warm. I use a cotton
tee, a wool sweater and a cheap insulated jacket with pit zips, and a poncho.
It works for anything down to about -20F, of course you still need to protect
your legs for warmth, because the poncho protects them from the water.

My poncho is so old it could vote, I don't even know who made it, I do
remember it was cheap, but not flimsy, it has some body so that it won't act
like it's still packed. I may not meet today's standard for packable, but eh,
what's an extra couple of ounces in the scheme of things.

------
askvictor
I've just come to accept that I'll get a bit wet one way or another; either
sweat or rain ingress through hood or cuffs (this will happen eventually as
you'll need to stop for lunch or to put up shelter). Keeping warm is more
important than keeping dry.

~~~
chrisseaton
Yes this is what I think - if you're outdoors and doing something you're going
to be getting wet, inside and out. Might as well accept that and work with it
(fast drying clothing, wet dry drills) rather than fight it.

------
fergie
As somebody who spends most of their time on the Celtic and Nordic fringes, Im
a big fan of non-breathable PU (fishermans) waterproofs.

I think breathability is an overrated quality for waterproof fabrics. Zips and
vents combined with waterproofness and robustness is the way to go.

~~~
int_19h
As somebody who lives in PNW, my take is the exact opposite: waterproofness is
the overrated quality, because the most commonly used fabrics are _way_ more
waterproof than necessary to completely block out even extremely heavy rain.
On the other hand, breathability means a lot less sweat on the move. The
difference between e.g. classic Gore-Tex and NeoShell is night and day.

~~~
jedmeyers
Based on my PNW experience having a hard shell is rarely worth it, unless you
are static. Otherwise softshell jackets is the way to go, much more breathable
and fast drying.

~~~
int_19h
I'd say it's very much worth it when hiking out in a downpour in winter.

------
jammygit
Generally, it’s safest to assume that any waterproof material is non-
breathable. If you exert yourself in them, you sweat and trap that sweat
inside the membrane, often guaranteeing to soak yourself even if the rain lets
up. Windbreakers with some basic spray on water resistance just work better
(which is to say, not great).

Best thing overall is to just wear synthetics that dry very quickly (pair with
waterproof bag for your backpack contents - trash compactor bags are amazing
for weight efficiency)

~~~
yazaddaruvala
I’ve had a perfect experience with my Arc’teryx Alpha FL from 2013.

The marketing said Goretex Active, and it worked like a charm.

I’ve worn it on three hour bike rides, snowboarding all day, 5-10 hour winter
and summer hikes. I took it to Iceland and Greenland (and was quite active in
the rain) and it just worked.

I live in Seattle and only maybe two days a year did I wish that it had pit
vents.

It’s expensive[0], but the technology works!

[0] Given it’s lasted 6 years, and still looks good, I now categorize it as an
investment rather than an expense. I love it so much I want to give them more
money, so this spring I’ll be buying a new one.

------
dzhiurgis
I’ve switched almost completely to breathable clothes over last couple of
years. Huge fan of Icebreaker merino stuff (underwear and hoodies). Using
breathable shorts from Kathmandu.

Big problem for me is that most of the stuff is way overoptimized for hiking
and trekking while I just wish something simple and socially acceptable.

Also one thing I haven’t figured out is t-shirts. Sticking to cotton for now
but do want something I can keep on for days or even a week.

~~~
mhd
Yes, "technical" clothing for regular use seems to be a unfilled niche. You
either get stuff for trekking, or that awful "techwear" trend that makes you
look like a ninja who's really into Nine Inch Nails, with a bit of tacticool
prepper mixed in.

Uniqlo has some "techy" fabrics that don't look too out of place, but a
slightly better quality and slightly higher age average wouldn't hurt (skinny
fits, friggin' 7/8 pants).

I've experimented with Merino shirts and socks for traveling with carry on
luggage, but they're just too damn fragile and develop small holes way too
soon. Yes, maybe I didn't take care of them the right way, but not having to
take care of them too much is pretty much the point...

~~~
dzhiurgis
I agree merino doesn’t last long. Worst were Allbirds. Super comfy for light
use, but wears out in like 6 months.

“Techy” style is subtle tho. I wouldn’t mind a premium lot2046 line. You’d
have to kill me to wear anything star wars. That is just dweeb.

IMHO Some of normal stuff is just too normcore dad clothing.

I guess agreement is wet need more of every tribe.

------
stereobit
A bit off topic but I’ll go up to Scotland in February and still need a hard
shell. My old Mountain Hardwear won’t make the cut anymore. Any
recommendations for good deals? I only need it for a week every other year for
some Alpine climbing so I don’t want to spend crazy money but also don’t want
to get soaked when the weather is bad.

------
xenocyon
As a frugal person, I'm as concerned with durability as performance.
Anecdotally, after trying cheaper membranes that disintegrated or lost their
waterproof-ness after frequent use (daily bike commuting, being stuffed in a
bag), I have come to prefer Gore-Tex for how long it lasts.

------
modeless
This is cool. I have purchased several pairs of pants that claimed to be
"breathable" but in fact were anything but. I'd basically given up on
breathable waterproof fabrics but this study seems to indicate that some of
them may be OK.

------
bryanmgreen
Theoretically, could a jacket made of a hard material ( _resistant to water
for 50 years minimum_ ) perforated with nano-particle size holes be both
breathable and highly water-resistant?

~~~
amluto
The surface needs to be hydrophobic, too. Otherwise, when the outside gets
soaked, holes will be blocked. Presumably it also needs to be thin so the
holes aren’t too deep.

At this point, you more or less have a textile. A piece of aluminum foil isn’t
going to make a great jacket.

------
crca
It’s fascinating that “breathability” appears to increase as mean humidity
increases.

In the end, the numbers are great until you accidentally wash your coat with
detergent!

~~~
vegardx
You can re-activate the fabric by washing it with a special spray that you
spray on and tumble dry it with.

------
tiku
I had an idea for a 3d printed layer that could vent on the shoulders and
would be rain proof if you walk upright..

