
Save Padmapper: Craigslist is wrong to shut them down. An open letter to Craig - ericz
http://blog.garrytan.com/save-padmapper-craigslist-is-wrong-to-shut-th
======
staunch
Craigslist isn't a charity. It is sad that they don't innovate, but it's not
the responsibility of the incumbents to make the job of their would-be
replacements easier. In fact that's bad business.

It would be nice if Craigslist created a platform that others could build on.
Something like Facebook. <http://apps.craigslist.org/mapper>. I bet people
would build things on their data _for free_ even without any way of making
money off it.

~~~
AceJohnny2
would-be replacements?

Padmapper provides a service on top of Craigslist: it maps Craigslist ads. It
does not provide classifieds, and Craigslist does not provide mapping. There
is no overlap. They are not competing.

Maybe they will compete in the future, but that's just because Craigslist
isn't making any effort to provide a mapping feature.

~~~
xelipe
The end game for Padmapper would definitely and without a doubt be to build
its business using Craigslist and then compete with it. I wonder how many
startups launched off of Craigslist.

~~~
ericd
Without a doubt? You presume that this is a standard startup with aggressive
biz dev plans. It's actually mostly me working on things that I think are
cool.

------
steadicat
Not very convincing. We all know the value that Padmapper brings to apartment
seekers. What's harder to explain is what (if any) value Padmapper brings to
Craigslist. That's really the case you'd have to make to get Craigslist to
reconsider.

Also, as much as I hate to say this, the “they didn’t do anything wrong”
argument is very weak. Scraping the site explicitly goes against Craigslist’s
TOS:

 _Any copying, aggregation, display, distribution, performance or derivative
use of craigslist or any content posted on craigslist whether done directly or
through intermediaries (including but not limited to by means of spiders,
robots, crawlers, scrapers, framing, iframes or RSS feeds) is prohibited._

~~~
mullingitover
"What's harder to explain is what (if any) value Padmapper brings to
Craigslist."

The most compelling value that Padmapper added to craigslist was that it
didn't make me want to tear my own eyes out, like the regular CL site does.

~~~
saurik
That does not provide value to Craigslist: that provides value to you. Please
explain how they provide value to /Craigslist/.

~~~
wpietri
By maximizing the number of people who find ads relevant to them.

It's easy to miss relevant stuff on Craigslist. I used PadMapper to find my
current place. I was the only person that week who put in an offer; had I
missed his ad his place would have stayed unoccupied another week at least.

That provides value to the landlord, of course, but since Craigslist charges
landlords for access, increased value to landlords means increased revenue
potential for Craigslist, which is certainly of value to them.

~~~
thezilch
Craigslist has been quoted, to an audience of investors, with not caring to
maximize revenues. Regardless, don't you think Craigslist would see the
effects of PadMapper going dark, and that would be the judge of it being a
lucrative venture?

~~~
wpietri
The question was how Padmapper provides value to Craigslist. I answered that.
The increased value is true whether or not Craigslist wants to maximize
revenue.

------
flatline3
I don't understand the justification for "saving" padmapper.

Padmapper's goal is to have Craigslist subsidize their data until they grow
large enough to challenge Craiglist's business.

Craigslist would be stupid to let them do this.

Instead, why don't you write a letter to craigslist asking for similar
functionality?

~~~
whichdan
They already run PadLister[1]. I wonder whether their endgame is to usurp
Craigslist, or to continue being an aggregator? Personally I see more value in
them pulling in Craigslist ads than trying to create their own community, but
at this point they're really limited for options.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but what about companies like Twitter
that rely heavily on people using their API? Is there ever a concern that the
apps will try to create their own network and push Twitter out?

[1] <http://www.padlister.com/>

~~~
ericd
Yeah, there is PadLister - my goal with that wasn't to usurp them with that, I
just wanted to have a backup in place. It actually makes it easier to post to
Craigslist. But I know how that looks :-/

~~~
whichdan
Craigslist is ranked #9 in the US on Alexa. I think it's completely
understandable that you're running PadLister, especially since it would take
some sort of internet voodoo to make a dent in Craigslist's traffic.

~~~
ericd
Yeah, I'm not delusional...

------
blantonl
The uproar over this is ridiculous. Craigslist is free to choose who can
consume their data.

If you choose to build a platform that is dependent on third-party data and
APIs, then you choose to accept whatever choices those third parties make that
could possibly affect your application.

The whole "craigslist doesn't innovate" argument is moot. If they were selling
buggy whips at a million dollar revenue rate a month, someone out there would
attempt to get in that same business, copy it, mimik it, resell it, etc.

Innovators create stuff that people want to copy or leach off of. Poseurs copy
and leach off of innovators.

~~~
neilc
_Craigslist is free to choose who can consume their data._

That much is completely obvious; I don't think anyone is arguing that
Craigslist don't have that right.

People are annoyed because shutting down PadMapper (without any effort to
provide similar functionality) is a shitty thing to do. PadMapper was a useful
service; now it is not useful. That is unfortunate.

Personally, it also seems hypocritical for Craigslist to claim that they just
build what their users' want. I think it is hard to argue that shutting down
PadMapper is consistent with that goal.

~~~
xelipe
I may have a contrarian view, but Craigslist not only has the right to choose
who can consume their data, but how and when. It also, has the right to make
it available any which way it likes. The idea that PadMapper has any right to
Craigslist postings because it is a better service is ridiculous; it's like me
saying that I think your house looks unkept so I am going to move in.

~~~
neilc
_Craigslist not only has the right to choose who can consume their data, but
how and when. It also, has the right to make it available any which way it
likes._

That is obvious, follows directly from copyright law, and is not in dispute.
PadMapper does not have a _right_ to use Craigslist's data [1], but Craigslist
sending C&Ds to PadMapper and similar sites is still shitty behavior all the
same.

[1] Outside of fair use and similar stuff, but that doesn't apply here.

------
cldrope
Craigslist does not allow scraping. Beg for help and for support for breaking
their rules elsewhere. This is Hacker News, not "help me retain a business
model after I broke rules" central.

You could alternatively hire people to spam them with nice requests to
reconsider.

~~~
wpietri
Wait, what? If anybody should appreciate breaking the rules in order to create
something useful, it's hackers.

~~~
cldrope
I fully agree, but unfortunately us hacker-kind are no longer the norm nor the
majority here. It's all startups and tons of people with business degrees.

Technical papers get downvotes while people's blog posts about how to
hire/fire people get upvoted.

------
darklajid
"I just found out a few moments ago that Craigslist has sent a cease and
desist to one of the most valuable sites for apartment renters __ON THE PLANET
__, Padmapper." (emphasis mine)

Never heard of the site. Curious after this introduction I opened the site,
went to my chosen hometown of Cologne, DE (1 mil people). Map's empty. Berlin,
maybe? Nope. Tel Aviv, IL? Nothing.

So for all the places I care about on this very planet the service doesn't
seem to work for me. That's not to slight their service at all, padmapper
might be a great service. But either they depended on craigslist too much (and
that's why it's barren now for me) or the writer of that blog post should tone
down his introduction a bit. Is it planet or US now?

~~~
greengarstudios
They depended on craigslist too much. It worked really well when craigslist
wasn't stopping them from using craigslist. craigslist is international. Does
craigslist have listings for Cologne, DE, Berlin, or Tel Aviv, IL? If it does,
they would have appeared on PadMapper. I've used PadMapper before. I didn't
even know they had any other sources; I thought it was strictly a mapping of
craigslist listings.

~~~
darklajid
Okay, that explains why it's empty now, but then again it's a strong reason
for craigslist to go after them, I guess. If the service is mostly a good
search ui for their data..

Regarding listings in the cities I mentioned: I only know that Tel Aviv
definitely uses craigslist. I never used it in Germany before, no idea if it
is relevant at all in those places.

~~~
shenberg
Craigslist isn't a thing in Israel - there are a few competing sites that
share one important attribute which craigslist lacks - an interface in Hebrew

------
istari
Dear Craiglist, please let Padmapper continue to scrape your data for free
because I find Padmapper super useful and much better than your shitty site.
I'm not going to address your interests at all, because they are directly
threatened by the existence of Padmapper. In fact, I'm surprised that you
haven't shut down Padmapper a year ago.

------
jacoblyles
Here's mine:

Jim and Craig,

Padmapper saved me dozens of hours looking for apartments vs. using the
Craigslist UI. If you extrapolate this to your entire user base, padmapper can
save your users millions of hours each year. That's the equivalent of several
human lifetimes saved that can be spent on other pursuits.

Padmapper saves lives. Please unblock them and open your data API.

-Jacob

(Of course, Craigslist is an evil monopoly despite their happy granola
reputation, so I don't expect them to listen)

------
leelin
"Save Padmapper" seems to be selling the company short given the diverse set
of data sources and partnerships they have. I hope Craigslist comes around but
my bet is PadMapper will be more than fine regardless.

~~~
mmanfrin
I'd wager 90% of their listings come from craigslist -- not really sure how
they'll be 'more than fine'.

~~~
ericd
You're pretty far off, since a lot of stuff gets cross posted, but I'm still
pretty bummed about it - it obviously made the site more useful.

~~~
rdl
Actually, the quality of the craigslist listings on Padmapper, and on
craigslist in general, seem to have fallen over the past year, too. Not sure
if it's the overall market or just craigslist. I was trying to disprove it by
looking in Menlo just now, but unfortunately(?) just found an utterly amazing
place for $2100 which is about 50% less than I would have thought, which kind
of goes against this. Not from Craigslist, but from a property management
company.

Just focus on making the SV/SF market amazing using padlister or partnerships
with property managers. Displace Craigslist in real estate in their home
market.

~~~
ericd
Yeah, when it comes to housing, the barbarians are at the gate, in the form of
scammers/spammers, and Craigslist isn't really set up structurally to deal
with them very well.

------
Mc_Big_G
The real douche bag move is to wait for something to become really successful
and pervasive before sending the cease and desist. Padmapper has been around
for a long time and now they decide to drop the hammer. Fuck craigslist.

~~~
shantanubala
Things only get a cease and desist when they become noticeable enough to
warrant writing a cease and desist letter.

------
lawnchair_larry
This really sucks. Moving is extremely stressful. Apartment hunting is very
difficult and time consuming. I was elated when I stumbled on padmapper. I'm
really disappointed that it won't be available next time I move.

------
jarcoal
I have a feeling all this will be somewhat moot anyway. If Padmapper is as
popular as it appears to be, then many rental companies will go straight to
them and submit their units in addition to CL.

------
GigabyteCoin
If Padmapper is really going to die without the addition of Craigslist real
estate listings, then why would Craiglist want to allow them to allow them?

Padmapper is Craigslist's competitor.

------
maked00
These whiners think if they whine loud enough and spam the interwebs with it,
they will get their way.

Note to whiners, please hold your breath.

------
mullingitover
The really shameful part is that CL could easily implement this feature on
their own with very little effort, but they won't. Someone in another thread
surmised that perhaps CL is planning to roll out a mapping tool on their own.
If that's the case, it's really user-hostile to kill the working tool before
they replace it with something developed in-house.

------
mw642
What about making PadMapper client-side, including the Craigslist scraping?
It'd have to be done on each request, which would hurt performance, but it may
be a way of staying within their TOS (not sure if they have a provision
against that; I don't use craigslist so haven't read their TOS).

------
rcavezza
Why haven't they done this more often? Many startups are trying to chip away
at CL's business. [http://www.mdaniels.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/02/tumblr_kw...](http://www.mdaniels.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/02/tumblr_kwkfi5tqEi1qzqh0wo1_500.png)

------
pknerd
First LinkedIn and now CL follow the suit. What message are they trying to
give to developer community?

I think the time is coming that developers will have to "invent" their own
datasources rather than banking on such _giants_

------
tlogan
So we need to save Padmapper which scrapes data from Craigslist.

That is fine with me, but let me asks this: if I start a web site which scrape
all Craigslist data would you guys back me up? If not, why not?

~~~
wpietri
Depends on how useful you are. Many scrapers are just putting out BS search
engine bait. PadMapper created a great interface on top of CL's data, which
created huge value for CL users.

------
CamperBob2
Question: why can't Padmapper simply run as a browser plugin on the user's PC?
From Craigslist's point of view, it would just look like a user who reads
_all_ the ads.

------
smartwater
Craig is just a customer service rep. He isn't in charge of Craigslist
anymore. Jim Buckmaster is the guy you want to speak to. Check out the
documentary, it's pretty good.

------
astrodust
Glad I was able to use Padmapper before this happened. Surfing through raw
Craigslist entries is surely what you're forced to do in one of the circles of
hell.

------
vaksel
Padmapper should offer to be acquihired by Craigslist

their service is 100% dependent on Craigslist so they'd have trouble selling
to anyone else

------
bitcrusher
I am curious as to what the catalyst for killing PadMapper over LiveLovely or
any of the other aggregation sites out there?

~~~
ericd
There's a wave of these C&D's coming out, a lot to sites much smaller than
mine.

------
Mc_Big_G
Who wants to start a Kickstarter campaign to develop an open api/backend for
classifieds? I'm in.

~~~
tptacek
Craigslist's market position has very little to do with technology. This is a
little like suggesting a Kickstarter campaign for IPv6.

~~~
Mc_Big_G
The point isn't the technology, it's the openness.

------
ssx
This happened to Oodle a few years back. It isn't like CL is targeting
Padmapper.

------
clobber
This is unfortunate but I'm reminded of this discussion from just over a week
ago:

"Don't build your house on someone else's platform"
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4093796>

------
J3L2404
They may be wrong in shutting them off, but they certainly have the right.

------
neutronicus
I'm probably one of the only people who is glad to see this happen. Keep your
Silicon Valley get-rich-quick schemes away from my Craigslist!

~~~
chrisballinger
You must have never used Padmapper to find your apartment. It is truly a great
experience compared to crawling through pages and pages of non-standardized
listings.

~~~
kimmel
I just tried padmapper out and I am not impressed.

The responsiveness of the site is sluggish and the longer I wait for that page
load the less time I am saving.

The listings on there now are junk. Recycled listings from aparatmentfinder,
really is that all you got. When I search property on craigslist for my town
and a price range I get hundreds more listings than padmapper.

Right there are two major problems with padmapper.

