
DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry - prostoalex
https://qz.com/969690/as-a-pilot-ive-seen-up-close-that-global-companies-skirting-american-labor-rules-have-to-be-stopped/
======
noir-york
The lack of empathy in the comments is disconcerting. The post is a bit light
on details (though the example given of flying 23 hours back-to-back
continental flights is terrible if regular) the post deserves better than: 1\.
Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2\. Capitalism! 3\. you're
lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker.

He's a pilot, not an accountant or lawyer. He knows that there is pay pressure
due to companies skirting regulations. That exec mgmt gets massive bonsuses
while the pilots work very long hours and (probably unpaid) overtime offends
one's sense of justice.

Pay has been stagnant for the vast majority of workers for decades. We should
be doing something about it, not dismissing it. Capitalism is a great tool for
progress, but it should not, and is not, the answer to everything. Human
dignity matters.

~~~
sqeezy
He is blaming a foreign company which is hiring his own comapny for failures
his company is not adressing. Sorry stupid article. I´s not DHL´s fault that
Southern Airline is not able to compete and to organize. Btw in Germany there
are Unions for that.
[https://www.vcockpit.de/en.html](https://www.vcockpit.de/en.html)

~~~
Pica_soO
Thats a falacy right there- if a outer system integrates a inner system, any
flaw of that integration resides upon the component in direct control of the
world (the outter system). If you ingest arsenic, and your liver is unable to
discard it- its not the livers fault- its the outter system who decided to put
the inner system under impossible strain, thats at fault.

And democracy includes the rights to call upon government to hinder capitalism
from destroying the citizens. Like it or not. If you disrespect that part of
freedom, you are not a true democrat.

------
robk
There aren't really any facts here just pure emotion that you would hear in
any industry where costs are cut. I've no idea how fairly these pilots are
paid. But surely there are regulations about pilot rest just like on
commercial flights. And a pilot cannot really pull heart strings about being
away from home when they chose that line of work where your job is literally
to be away from home all the time.

~~~
latch
I think transportation is an incredibly important (food!), but the way this is
written seems incredibly tone-deaf. He should have focused on the facts (if
there are any) about incident rates and length of time flying, instead of
saying how his dream of connecting "our great country with the rest of the
world" is being jeopardized.

~~~
etherael
To be fair, the emotional approach is what actually works in the vast majority
of cases. Normal people don't connect with or understand facts.

I think this might be a case of content audience mismatch.

~~~
abtinf
"The essential characteristic of the Argument from Intimidation is its appeal
to moral self-doubt and its reliance on the fear, guilt or ignorance of the
victim. It is used in the form of an ultimatum demanding that the victim
renounce a given idea without discussion, under threat of being considered
morally unworthy. The pattern is always: “Only those who are evil (dishonest,
heartless, insensitive, ignorant, etc.) can hold such an idea.”"

~~~
idle_processor
etherael doesn't appear to be supporting the logical clout of that type of
argument, but rather commenting on its ubiquity in modern public discourse and
success in driving policy.

E.g., "think of the children," "if we don't X, the terrorists win," or "we
must censor the Internet or undermine crypto, because it enables Y."

~~~
etherael
To clarify my original intent, this is exactly correct. I wish it were
otherwise, but the fact is that it is not.

------
dx034
> We work long hours, fly in dangerous conditions and go through years of
> training, but we do it because we understand that our work is vital to
> keeping our economy humming.

No. Pilots become pilots because they love flying and because it pays well
(mostly the former). Haven't heard of any pilot who chose the job because it's
important for the economy.

~~~
megablast
> they love flying

Do they really? I mean, if you love driving, do you become a bus driver?

It is not like it is flying your cessna around the place.

~~~
dx034
I only know the situation in Europe. But here, many get the license by taking
out a loan without any prospect of employment. They then have to fly in Asia
for dodgy airlines for some years to get enough hours to be considered even
for a low-cost airline such as Ryanair. Getting a job at a full-service
carrier or even long-haul is next to impossible. These are usually people with
a good high school degree and often even university degree. They just do it
because they love flying.

There's a TV show called "Worst Place to be a Pilot" about how young people
from Britain risk their lives in Southeast Asia just to get a job as a pilot
one day. I don't think people take these kinds of risks for many other jobs.

[http://www.channel4.com/programmes/worst-place-to-be-a-
pilot...](http://www.channel4.com/programmes/worst-place-to-be-a-
pilot/episode-guide)

~~~
FireBeyond
Yeah, realistically, the best way to get a full service carrier pilot position
is to go military, early, get your certs, training, time in there, and then
make your way to civilian life. The big airlines tend to love military pilots.

------
matt123
This isn't the first time we've heard first-hand accounts of massive companies
treating workers like slaves. Amazon is already notorious for the ways it
treats its warehouse workers. Once again, upward concentration of wealth in
our country has created pressure on the people at the bottom to produce more,
more, more. If you don't see the parallels to the time period leading up to
the massive workers' rights reforms of the Progressive era - you aren't
looking very hard. We seem to have have already forgotten the lessons we
learned just a century or so ago.

~~~
dx034
There's a very big difference between a cargo pilot and an Amazon warehouse
worker. Just because both feel treated unfairly, the warehouse worker will be
much worse off. Cargo pilots dream of salaries that were usual in the past,
warehouse workers just want to earn enough to have an acceptable lifestyle.

------
fh973
The dividing line in jobs nowadays seems to be headquarters or operations,
brain or hands. If you're in operations, you are already or will be optimized
to the extent possible and permitted. Not pretty, but the modus operandi.

Pilots are part of operations and not different to drivers or cleaning staff,
even if they still consider themselves part of an elite.

~~~
usrusr
Thank you for putting it into clear words. Seems like these things are more
visible when the nice headquarter jobs exist in a different country. Guess how
almost all countries where Amazon operates (all but one?) think about the
qualities of Amazon as an employer...

------
Aeolun
Not entirely sure what he's talking about. Seems like he should have a word
with Southwestern Air instead of blaming DHL and Amazon.

While they undoubtedly contribute, putting all the blame on their shoulders
seems a bit silly.

~~~
pyvpx
is Southwestern Air really independent when the largest shareholder is DHL,
and DHL owns and leases the planes to Southwestern?

Even if you can claim the board or management of Southwestern is "independent"
what, exactly, can they do? all their inputs are literally owned by DHL.

~~~
dx034
Why not allow foreign airlines to fly domestic US routes? DHL would buy the
other 51% and make the ownership clear. They only have to use these vague
relationships because of US regulation that tries to protect domestic players.

[https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2014/01/05/ell...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2014/01/05/elliott-
let-foreign-airlines-fly-domestic-routes/4329825/)

------
hblanks
A couple things to consider:

* Hour restrictions for passenger transport are significantly more stringent than for freight.

* Southern Air's fleet consists 737s and 777s -- not small planes.

* These plans have to fly over and into major metropolitan areas.

* Many parts of flying can be automated, but in the end, and for aircraft this size, you probably want a human operator in the plane for the sheer reason that they are better equipped to handle unplanned emergencies.

It's a tough call whether flying freight or regional airlines pays worse --
but in either case, you're anywhere from a quarter to half of what a software
engineer of similar years experience in the bay area would make. The hours are
in a lot of ways worse -- mostly because you're away from home a lot of the
time, and you have really limited control of your schedule. (As someone who's
worked as an on-call engineer for ten years, and who also flies, I'd take the
on-call responsibilities over flying freight any day of the week.)

I'd agree that the article lacks for details. But, a relatively quick reading
through things like airliners.net will give you an idea of the kind of hours
and pay these guys typically work -- it's not an easy job. If we care about
their safety -- and our own, given the number of freight aircraft flying over
us every night -- we shouldn't write them off as just asking for money they
don't deserve.

~~~
thanksgiving
I think most people will agree that the $200k+ starting salary in the bay area
is an anomaly. Everyone is doing everything to "fix" this problem.

If we care about safety, we prohibit them from doing things that are unsafe.
If management tries to make them do things that are prohibited, we should make
it easy for people to say no without repercussions.

~~~
ajmurmann
The $200k starting salary in the bay area also is a myth. $100-120 is much
more common as a first salary out of college.

------
Dwolb
A few thoughts here.

1) DHL started in the US in 1969 and became German owned a little after 2002
(it has a pretty cool origin story where the founder felt there was a better
way to deliver overnight goods to Hawaii than to literally sit a person on a
plane and stuff legal documents in his luggage. He used his student loans
to... "bootstrap"). IMO the article loses some credibility by using "foreign
competition" verbiage a lot to emotionally sway the reader.

2) Is DHL skirting regulator rules and putting pilots in unsafe conditions?
Regulations need to first and foremost be in place to prevent deadly
disasters.

3) It sounds like pilots are losing their market power in the labor market
(supply is increasing faster than demand) leading to lower wages and benefits
and worse scheduling policies. This is a place where unions typically would
play as a way for laborers to gain back their market power. Not sure the union
conditions in the airline industry but I'm guessing there are issues with
global labor competition that's making this difficult. We as a society need to
understand how globalization (and now automation!) is/will effect every job on
the planet.

~~~
SyneRyder
> _DHL started in the US in 1969 and became German owned a little after 2002_

Wow, thanks for pointing this out. I've been under the mistaken impression
that DHL was always German (and that German precision is why they were better
than the competition), and I'd assumed DHL stood for Deutsche Something
Something.

[From the DHL company history: "On 25 September 1969, Adrian Dalsey, Larry
Hillblom and Robert Lynn (the D, H and L in our company name) incorporate
DHL."]

[http://wap.dhl.com/info/history.html](http://wap.dhl.com/info/history.html)

~~~
sanswork
>and that German precision is why they were better than the competition

To me seeing that my package will be shipped with them is a negative since
I've never had a positive experience. Is a bit better now that I'm regional so
they basically only control the package until customs but still bit great
before it reaches the country.

~~~
SyneRyder
I'm in Australia, so it could be a different experience here (and my Amazon
deliveries here are still superior to DHL & other providers).

The one that really makes my heart sink is Toll - anytime I see "delivered by
Toll", I know there's only a 50% chance of my parcel arriving. [The last time
I had to pick up a parcel from a collection point, I overheard someone calling
out "Can't use Chrome for that, Toll requires IE6 for the log-in"]

~~~
sanswork
In Australia too when I was in Sydney they were both problems now I'm in Yamba
so everything goes via one of two local guys who are both really great.

------
Melk
Hot topic in The Netherlands right now is the threat of a hostile takeover of
Akzo Nobel, a chemical company with 50,000 employees, by a US company. The
government is discussing putting the same protective regulations in place that
Trump is threatening with. The US isn't "losing" jobs to Germany, they are
trade partners. If Americans want to stop trading then both sides lose.

------
ajmurmann
I wish there was a little bit more detail on what laws are bypassed.
Unfortunately I'm also a little put off by the emphasise on averting foreign
influence. Regulations against foreign carriers operating in the US were
always uncomfortable to me.

~~~
ghshephard
Isn't the regulation there because the US government uses the carriers in time
of war to transport their forces?

~~~
sokoloff
The cabotage rules came into place after the second world war.

While the military argument may be used by some, to me, this is pretty clearly
an economic treaty issue rather than a matter of national security.

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Convention_on_Internat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Convention_on_International_Civil_Aviation)

------
nathan_f77
> At another DHL carrier, pilots went on strike for two days after a year of
> regularly being forced to cover overtime shifts due to short-staffing.

Sounds like they need to do more of that.

Is there a surplus of pilots waiting in line for jobs? This isn't the first
time I've heard that pilots get paid very little and have to work incredibly
long hours. Are there no unions?

~~~
microcolonel
I'd like them to define "forced", I don't think there really is any mechanism
for an employer to compel anyone to do things.

People learn to fly because they like flying, it is fun. Because people like
to fly, the going rate for piloting is low. If people didn't like flying so
much, the rates would be higher.

~~~
tome
That's news to me! Throughout my life I've subconsciously picked up that
pilots are very well paid. Did I get the wrong impression?

~~~
thesumofall
Depends on the airline. Pilots of major legacy carriers (and not their low-
cost spin-offs) are typically really well paid (sometimes excessively so). In
Germany I'm aware of cases of >500k$ annually for end-of-their-career pilots.
I believe the situation in the US is similar. However, pilots of low-cost
carriers earn significantly less. In Europe I heard of salaries in the range
of 50k$ annually. I would guess cargo carriers that are not 100% subsidiaries
of legacy carriers are closer to low-cost carriers in their salaries

~~~
iamatworknow
Most American pilots have to start their careers at regional airlines and many
pay under $30k/year to start: [https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-
room/2016-08-16-st...](https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-
room/2016-08-16-strong-career-key-to-attracting-new-pilots-to-airline-
profession)

------
nottorp
Isn't he working for an US company which contracts to DHL? And isn't said
company pushing him because US labor laws let it get away with it?

------
kzmv
Welcome to the world of competitive market. This is how capitalism works.

This article is filled with emotion and lack of facts. You express how
difficult your job is however 80% of the time the computer is doing all of
your job. This is why a lot of tech companies are focusing on AI
driving/flying automation. Of course it is good to have a pilot on the plain
but very little is done now days by him. You only bear the responsibility(not
that it is little).

You have few actions: \- Make sure all pilots are on the same page as you and
put on a strike (Create Demand in the face of Amazon) \- If others are OK with
the working condition then problem is with yourself. You need to provide
something more to the table than flying skills - teaching, management,
experience.

Stop blaming businesses, they have a very predictable morality - profit.

~~~
bb101
There is no such entity as a business. Every business is a collection of
individuals and I have trouble believing that every one of those individuals
holds only profit, and the consequent race to the bottom, as a favourable
outcome. It's a sad state of affairs where a group behaves in the opposite
fashion to how they would behave as individuals.

------
cies
Unionize and do something about it. They are pilots! Well educated
individuals. C'mon go help yourselves...

~~~
ash
Unions sound nice in theory. But in practice, pilot unions work only for very
senior pilots [1]. All other pilots in the union get paid much less and have
worse working conditions. The detailed story about the effects of pilot
unions:

[http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-
airlines](http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines)

[1]: Senior vs junior pilots gap is also the incentive for the airline owner
to go bancrupt and start a new airline. So that there'll no senior pilots in
the airline.

~~~
stupidhn
> _pilot unions work only for very senior pilots_

Then bargain for different terms and conditions for junior pilots? There is no
"one" way that unions work.

~~~
notahacker
Unions are run by senior pilots; it's very much in their interests for pay to
continue to be weighted towards senior pilots (and they could trot out plenty
of justifications related to experience and training for it if they wanted to)
Junior pilots aim to become senior pilots when they've accumulated enough
experience so it's generally not in their interest to rock the boat

------
theprop
During back-to-back flights of 23 hours, are the pilots able to sleep for any
significant amount of time?

How often are they asked to take the marathon flights?

More details would be helpful...it's not clear if this is a new norm from the
article.

~~~
dx034
There will have been 3 pilots on board. One can always rest so that you don't
get over the maximum time. 23 hours is still at the limit of what you can do
with 3 pilots. For passenger planes, you would've probably needed 4 pilots.

------
theprop
Amazon is making life difficult for the USPS as well...forced them to work on
Sundays. They _definitely_ have leverage.

That said, most everyone at USPS is probably quite happy that Amazon is
helping their business thrive when it had been floundering for years. USPS
folks are also not working marathon hours like these pilots, except at
Christmas, but they've been doing that for decades.

------
twothamendment
Trucking isn't a lot different. My dad has worked for a few companies where
all out breaking the law is the norm. It was expected and required. The big
problem is if a driver is caught, who is it on? Only the driver. That is why
he is lucky to be with a company that doesn't ask him to cook his log book.

Another company would not pay for time sitting at a loading dock or line. They
say you must be at point X at 9:00. You are 10th in line. At noon you finally
get unloaded. That was 3 hours of sitting without pay, but yet you aren't free
to walk a way.

They also wouldn't pay for time to fuel the truck. Does the truck fuel itself?
I think not. From what I know it is legal to require this task to be done, but
not pay for it? Just to be clear, it is a company owned truck and he was an
employee.

Labor laws are a mess and I'm sure there are all kinds of industries that are
in a similar position.

------
artumi-richard
That reference about DHL being German doesn't sit nicely with me. Germany is
much more socialist than the USA.

~~~
yAnonymous
Are we?

The health insurance system is corrupt and medical services are arguably on
the decline.

When you don't have money or a job, you can get basic benefits and in return
get treated like a dog. For many people that is still better than in their
home countries, so they come here.

The middle class is getting smaller, because they're the ones paying for all
this.

Is milking the middle class from all ends socialist? Doesn't feel like it.

~~~
dx034
If you're from Germany, go to a US hospital once to get a basic treatment.
Then look at the bill and think about the argument of a corrupt insurance
system. Because as a German, you'll likely never have seen how much a doctor
or hospital actually charge a patient.

------
kgc
I wonder what he would say if an AI took over his job. Would he be sad or
happy?

------
jen729w
Anyone here - not me, but only because I live in Australia - who doesn't
recognise they they are the problem, are the problem.

We all want things, and we all want them the cheapest. Amazon is the cheapest.
And how? This is how.

We either get used to a world where things cost less and people all across the
delivery chain get treated really shitty, or we all accept that we have to pay
a dollar more for that 12-pack of toilet paper.

Discussions of flying hours and labour rules here are disingenuous. We choose.
Cheap, and people get fucked over? Or pay more, and (hopefully) they don't.

It's up to us. This is not a technology issue.

~~~
valuearb
Read the article carefully and you'll note that he was never required to pilot
a plane 23 hours in a 24 hour period (which is against all regulations). He
was forced to ride along with one flight in order to get to his work flight.

The author has a great job where he is well paid and occasionally has to sleep
on a plane. What's the problem?

------
justsayinthro
Welcome to Capitalism. In this case, there are no H1B pilots to put the blame
on in this field. Like cheap H1B engineers from India are taking away our
jobs, cheap field workers from Mexico are taking our jobs, cheap Chinese
products. Emirates..I can go on. If anyone knows how Capitalism works, they
will stop complaining that why their jobs are being replaced. Its not the
cheap employees fault, its the very same capitalist organizations that you
work for. Dont put the blame on a worker for taking away your job.

------
nraynaud
Is it me or it's a lot of xenophobia and a bit of labor dispute?

------
cpwright
Long haul truckers also have a difficult job, and are squeezed by large
shippers.

People associate used glamour with flying, but I think that is because it was
so expensive and most people were shut out. I think of a passenger airplane as
a greyhound with wings. There's no reason not to think of a cargo plane as a
semi with wings, in which case you shouldn't expect the pilots to be much
better off than truck drivers.

------
cm2187
I thought that with all the safety regulations, cargo pilots were doing more
or less the same number of hours that passengers pilots. In fact I read
previously that pay was now pretty much aligned between the two, and that this
previously unpopular profession among pilots was attracting increasing
interest.

~~~
_h_o_d_
That i likely more because of plummeting pay for passenger pilots with the new
budget airlines

------
therealmarv
DHL is doing the same with their workers in Germany (so it's not because
Germany has more loose regulations on their workers, I think they are even
more strict in maximum hours work time in comparison even to USA). The problem
is that this big logistic companies like DHL and Amazon trying to max. their
profit and min. their losses without any ethics and with pressure from
competitors on the shoulders of their most important employees. Logistic is
going mad and it should be better regulated world wide. A lot of people in
logistics and postal service are frustrated because of this online trade trend
nowadays.

------
m23khan
to be honest, why not start by having cargo planes flown by AI in an unmanned
aircraft?

You can have an office where drone-operator style aircraft operators can log
in for 8 hour shift and then 'handover' to the next shift's operator before
heading home.

I understand the sentiment of having an actual human(s) fly passengers but
cargo is just -- cargo and it's not as if the skies are as complicated as the
roads with rules and other manual driving cars.

~~~
neurotech1
Two reasons:

1) Because if a cargo jet crashes a large number of ground fatalities is a
possible outcome.[0][1]

2) Drone "operators" who are basically monitoring the AI and instruments will
not be at peak focus when they need it most. Compare US Air 1549 [2] with
Asiana 214 [3]. Capt. Sullenberger well rested and 110% focused on landing the
jet, as safely as possible. The crew of Asiana 214 were obviously not focused
100% on landing and were unable to make a "manual" visual landing on a clear
day in a normal functioning 777.

The USAF has a contingency plan to shoot down a drone if it drifts off course
towards a populated area, or to prevent capture by non-friendly
governments.[4]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_6491](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_6491)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214)

[4] [http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-
space/article/20...](http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-
space/article/2009-09/when-drones-go-wild-air-force-shoots-them-down)

------
krzrak
How it is even possible for pilots to fly 23 hours straight? I am pretty sure
there are some regulations limiting pilot's working time for safety reasons.

~~~
dx034
As in every passenger flight >~10 hours, there was a third pilot on board so
that they could rotate.

------
ars
Summary of article: I want more money.

Why do cargo planes even need pilots? He isn't likely to get more money -
instead his job is likely to be automated away.

~~~
dx034
Because you don't want to experience a bug in the automatic flight while the
777 is above a major city.

Self driving cars will come soon, self driving planes won't come for decades.
The risk of losing >1000 lives because of one bug or hack doesn't justify the
cost savings.

------
badpenny
It amazes me that people still believe that these companies care about
anything except the bottom line.

------
markvdb
Emo. No content.

"US patriots, protect our labour achievements from this evil German company!"

~~~
hasa
Yesss, evil nazis taking over the country. I don't see the point of the
article. Automated work and cheaper labour is searched everywhere to produce
more profit. Only way for people to survive in this race is to develop
themselves, educate, learn, specialize, make more value. Not to build walls.

------
MarkvW
It is EXTREMELY difficult to be empathetic with a pilot. As a class, they are
the most FYIGM ultraconservative group. Now they feel the trickle down on
their heads....

~~~
FireBeyond
Well, if not pilots, what about private EMTs? Averaging minimum wage or 1-2%
above, usually working 24 hour shifts, often without meal breaks, responding
to 911 calls. They're a little less FYIGM.

------
averagewall
This is a bit of a distorted view"

"veterans or reservists who have spent years in selfless service"

Both veterans and reservists get paid for their work. It's no more selfless
than being a programmer or a cleaner.

------
granitosaurus
Meaningless post, the only concrete example is:

> For example, my colleagues and I have been asked to sit on 14-hour flights
> from the UW to the Middle East, only to then fly the same aircraft to Asia
> on another nine-hour journey

Which is a lot to __ask__ for. Wasn't the company willing to pay overtime
wages? I'm not a pilot, but to me it sounds like that's a pretty much
unavoidable issue in the industry and the pilots are compensated heavily for
this overtime, aren't they?

~~~
jbgreer
Note that he didn't say he wasn't paid for that additional 9 hours. He just
said he had to fly 9 more hours.

------
Entalpi
Sounds like you need some socialism in yer country. But I guess tax cuts to
companies will help.

~~~
omarforgotpwd
Maybe tax cuts to corporations would help. If a company that was previously
keeping 65% of profits started keeping 85% due to lower taxes perhaps they
would invest some of that in employee pay / benefits / more employees. Of
course, they also have the choice to just keep the extra money for themselves.

~~~
rwmj
Ha ha hilarious. You don't think they'll just pay larger C-suite salaries?

The question you should ask is: who has the power in this relationship? If the
pilots unionized properly, they'd have the power to demand higher wages or
better conditions.

