
Amazon establishes new Counterfeit Crimes Unit - ssully
https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/amazon-establishes-new-counterfeit-crime-unit
======
rckoepke
The categories of things that I've received counterfeit versions of on Amazon
have been truly mind-blowing. It's been replacement HEPA filters, cat toys,
even breakfast cereal. It's not just earphones/mics, batteries, usb cables,
flash drives, extension cords, and other electronics.

Who counterfeits breakfast cereal??? I've had this issue with both Quaker Oats
and Raisin Bran. The scale of fraud is magnificent. And it really gaslights
consumers; it took me forever to actually accept that I was eating an off-
brand imitation of my favorite cereals.

I do still buy from Amazon. The ease of returns still gives me confidence that
I can decide after receiving an item whether the price:quality ratio is worth
it.

But not if I absolutely need it to conform to certain standards and I don't
have the skills/tools to validate the performance myself (like HEPA filters).
Then I tend to buy from somewhere with a more curated supply chain (Home
Depot, direct from manufacturers website, etc).

~~~
throwaway_jobs
Here is one (plus the story of a defective product lawsuit behind it).

A water slide. The type that bolts down into concrete for use with pools. If
the first thing in your mind is...isn’t that something from the
70’s/80’s...yes it is.

So the counterfeiter must have molded the entire slide (complete with the
company logo that was embossed into the slide itself) thing is that company
was dissolved back in the 80’s.

So purchaser’s kid cuts their leg open on the slide and they sue for defective
product. Of course the investigation leads to suing this Dissolved
manufacturer. As I recall the dissolved entity actually defended (sort of rare
from a dissolved Corp that dissolved so long ago) and it was only during
expensive phase of discovery they learned they didn’t manufacture the slide In
question, and that it was completely counterfeited.

One day Amazon is going to get smacked with such a lawsuit resulting in
billions in punitive damages, then and only then will you see real effort on
their part to curb this behavior.

~~~
hitpointdrew
> One day Amazon is going to get smacked with such a lawsuit resulting in
> billions in punitive damages, then and only then will you see real effort on
> their part to curb this behavior.

IIRC at least one person (probably more) has died already from counterfeits on
Amazon. I read one where I guy died in a motorcycle crash, it was found that
his helmet (which he bought off Amazon) was a fraud and wasn't/didn't meet DOT
standards, even though it had the DOT sticker.

~~~
throwaway_jobs
I recall stories of counterfeit child car seats that failed safety standards
(don’t think there was a lawsuit) just “undercover purchases” and actual
safety testing of the fakes.

As I understand it Amazon isn’t liable which to me makes no sense as it
relates to defective products (everyone in the supply chain of a defective
product should be jointly and severely liable).

I don’t care if it’s a 3rd party seller, Amazon should be liable as it hosts
the product for sale, connects buyer/seller, processes payments, typically
stores (and commingled) the products, and probably delivers the product.

The thing about punitive damages is they are a punishment, so eventually there
will be a case where The jury hears how Amazon knowingly and willfully
continued selling 3rd party items it knew were fake and dangerous (Fake DOT
helmets; expired baby formula; fake baby car seats; exploding electronics;
etc...)and the jury is going to drop the hammer. Even billions In punitive
damages wouldn’t be a surprise, Amazon will appeal and it will come down to
10’s or 100’s of millions, but that’s when they will take real action to stop
this. But it’s going to take time for this to happen.

~~~
soulofmischief
The alternative is an online marketplace with no accountability. That doesn't
sound safe.

~~~
syshum
The Alternative is going back to eCommerce where individual shops put up their
own web site, market their own website and are liable for their own website
(and have control over their supply chain)

Today since the build of consumers are on Amazon if you are a retailer you
need to be one Amazon, and if you want access to Prime Customer you need to
use Fulfillment by amazon, Where now you loose control over your supply chain
due to co-mingled inventory

So even if I have a stellar reputation as A+AcmeMerchant, and customers look
for my store on amazon they are not guaranteed to get the product that I sent
to amazon, no they could get JoeBobScammers Product even though it was sold
"by me" and fulfilled by amazon

So I will not go as far as to say amazon should be liable for ALL sales, but I
do agree that any Sale that is shipped from an Amazon Warehouse they should be
liable for. They choose to comingle all of their inventory they should face
the liability

------
gwittel
Are fake listings a problem? Absolutely. But is it the primary issue? I'm not
so sure. It seems like Amazon is doing all sorts of things but not actually
addressing the root -- inventory co-mingling + sketchy 3rd party sellers that
can come back overnight.

Simply ending inventory co-mingling would likely handle a substantial portion
of counterfeits since Amazon is sourcing their stock through standard
channels.

Amazon knows this. There's probably cost models somewhere in HQ. But ending
this would mean: slower delivery times, and Amazon would have to carry the
inventory on their books. I'd gladly wait an extra day or two if I know the
item I get is legit (just like pre FBA/3rd party days). Instead, Amazon is
burning goodwill and cash on efforts like this one.

If anything, Covid-19 has forced other retailers to up their online game. Its
accelerated my spending shift away from Amazon as I'm tired of fraud.
Fraudulent items can injure, poison, or even kill people. Thanks, but no
thanks. I'll wait another day for that delivery.

~~~
ABeeSea
I’m not sure commingling is as big a problem as you imply. Amazon’s inventory
system is random so every item can essentially be tracked by location. Even
with commingling, if there is a counterfeit all the inventory from the
original sourcer can be tracked and pulled. It’s not like they are randomly
tossing all of the same item into a random bin and doesn’t know whose is
whose.

Also Amazon buys from many distributors just like every other retailer. Even
their own inventory for the same item could come from many different
suppliers. Many of those distributors/suppliers are now sellers themselves and
all that’s changed is who sets the price and who decides when to send in more
inventory (and who takes on the working capital risk.)

As for sellers coming back overnignt, one of the largest complaints on the
seller forums is how onorous the KYC process is for new sellers. (Bank
documents, passports, business license, etc).

Also you a manufacturer can become a brand owner which prevents commingling
and other sellers from listing on their items. Notice that Ankara highest
volume power banks pretty much only have offers from Anker and amazon
warehouse / woot (an amazon subsidiary).

~~~
csa
> It’s not like they are randomly tossing all of the same item into a random
> bin and doesn’t know whose is whose.

Tell this to my buddy who had his card game counterfeited about 3 years ago.

He was getting a lot of complaints about counterfeit products, so he ordered a
few and got a few duds.

He ended up having to recall all of his inventory from Amazon, and he found
out that a fairly sizable percentage was counterfeit (~20%... can't remember
the exact number). According to him, Amazon was literally "tossing all of the
same item into a random bin and [didn't] know whose [was] whose".

The solution he ended up going with was paying Amazon extra to separate his
items from other potential sellers of his own product. IIRC, he also set up
(paid for?) the right to be the sole distributor for new items. I can't
remember if he took those actions concurrently or sequentially, but he decided
it was cheaper to do both rather than deal with counterfeits.

------
ComputerGuru
They do this every six to twelve months:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106305](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106305)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19091852](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19091852)

It’s just platitudes so long as their interests are served by pretending the
problem doesn’t exist.

~~~
Zaheer
This goes beyond just words. Establishing a dedicated team to investigate /
prosecute Counterfeiters is a solid step forward.

~~~
arkades
Until they start prosecuting people and putting up barriers to counterfeit
sales, it _is_ just words. They're slightly different words, but still.

------
throwawayiionqz
I ordered a well-known baby-bottom cream. The product gave her never-expanding
rashes for a few days. Then I realized the color slightly differs from the
same cream bought at the local pharmacy, and that many 1 star reviews also
report knockoffs version of the cream. In some cases review pictures show that
the packaging itself is clearly fake.

I write a 1-star review explaining the above, and saying that the anxious
parents are now in an unbearable situation after applied a fake, potentially
harmful and untraceable product to their newborn bottom.

The review does not respect community guidelines and won't be published.

~~~
BurningFrog
This sounds litigation ready!

~~~
ummonk
Second this - this needs to be litigated.

~~~
awakeasleep
How many hours a week would a person need to dedicate to starting a lawsuit
about something like this?

Anyone have experience? Even if a law firm would do 100% of the work & charge
on contingency, I bet it still takes 100+ hours for the average joe to
research and find the firm to do that.

~~~
BurningFrog
Ask a lawyer friend to refer you. They're pretty good at that. I imagine an
initial 1/2 hour conversation will clarify a _lot_ and cost nothing.

If you don't have a lawyer friend, find a friend who does.

------
ckastner
I've said this before: they should look at how the finance industry deals /
has been dealing with bad actors for decades _before_ they engage in a
business relationship with a client.

Assign every vendor some risk category based on their profile, for example:
projected annual revenue, country of incorporation, products sold.

A mom-and-pop store located somewhere in Iowa selling pillow cases would
probably be low-risk, there's not much you need to do.

A vendor selling USB cables out of China is probably very-high-risk. These
need deep vetting. As in: show up in an office, bring along your lawyer, show
us documentation on the working conditions in your factory, sign an agreement
to let us audit your factory, etc.

Now, banks don't do this (at least, as far as I'm aware), but to play the
devil's advocate: just imagine if Amazon asked very-high-risk vendors to _post
collateral_ before selling. If they get caught, the collateral is used to
compensate victims.

That would take out the incentive to sell counterfeits in the first place.

~~~
dublinben
Speaking of incentives, why would Amazon want to place such onerous
restrictions on their suppliers? Are consumers supposed to demand this? Would
regulation require it?

Amazon's success at being "the everything store" is fundamentally opposed to
vetting their suppliers like this.

~~~
ckastner
> _why would Amazon want to place such onerous restrictions on their
> suppliers?_

Because they have a massive counterfeiting problem, as evident by this
submission.

To reiterate, what I suggested would only be onerous for the highest-risk
suppliers.

> _Amazon 's success at being "the everything store" is fundamentally opposed
> to vetting their suppliers like this._

Certainly, Amazon is also fundamentally opposed to customers becoming victims
of counterfeiters on a platform they provide them with.

~~~
heavyset_go
> _Certainly, Amazon is also fundamentally opposed to customers becoming
> victims of counterfeiters on a platform they provide them with._

You can't even select "This item is a counterfeit/I suspect this item is a
counterfeit" when filing for a return.

Surely if they cared about their customers becoming victims of counterfeiters,
they'd give the customers who did become victims of counterfeiters on Amazon's
marketplace the ability to return and report such items accordingly.

During my last return of a counterfeit item, I had to lie about the reason for
the return during the return process. I had to choose between the vaguely
related, but Amazon-approved, platitudes of "Wrong item was sent", "Inaccurate
website description" or "Item defective or doesn't work".

~~~
ckastner
Just to be clear, my argument was rhetorical.

I fully agree that in practice, we're seeing something completely different.

------
olafure
I'd really like them to establish a "counterfeit reviews" unit too.

Many years ago their review system was one of their businesses advantages.
Many users and fairly honest reviews.

Now it's rife with fake and bought reviews, rendering it useless.

~~~
Wingman4l7
I recently took a look at the top 20 reviewers, and based on some personal
knowledge of what the items that buy 5-star reviews are in the current market,
at least 3 of the top 20 people are doing it. These are people with
_thousands_ of reviews. It's rotten all the way to the top.

------
legitster
I have yet to have an issue with a counterfeit - my main problem are the pages
and pages of crappy listings. I was trying to find a child's bike helmet the
other day, and it's hundreds of brands I have never heard of, with no safety
information, and all look virtually indistinguishable from each other except
for weird logos plastered on them. (Kamugo? Galf? LERUJIFL? Turboske? OUWOER?
LANOVAGEAR?)

I ended up driving to Wal-Mart for a Bell helmet that cost the same.

------
ikeboy
When are they going to start suing those who file false claims of
counterfeiting?

Google started something similar last year when they sued someone who was
abusing YouTube's DMCA system.
[https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/15/20915688/youtube-
copyrig...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/15/20915688/youtube-copyright-
troll-lawsuit-settled-false-dmca-takedown-christopher-brady)

But despite widespread abuse of Amazon's IP reporting system, to date Amazon
has not sued anyone for that as far as I know.

------
myself248
Foxes announce plan to investigate threats to henhouse. Film at 11.

------
bllguo
I have never had counterfeit issues on amazon and always find these threads
bewildering. I buy almost everything I can't get from my local grocery store
from them. I can't tell whether I'm improbably lucky or if I'm part of a
silent majority. Claims of things like counterfeit cereal (come on, really
want to see some actual proof here) tilt me towards the latter, though.

~~~
Amezarak
I was reselling Monster energy drinks in my office. I tried ordering some from
Amazon, since the bigger packs are more readily available, and for lower
prices, allowing me to sell cans for a cheaper per-unit price.

The very first pack I got was clearly counterfeit. The cans were subtly
different both in appearance and etching. A brave volunteer who tried some
also reported it tasted off.

If they're counterfeiting energy drinks, I fully believe they're doing cereal
too.

~~~
p1necone
I wonder if the "silent majority" is just all the people sufficiently fooled
by the counterfeiting?

~~~
Amezarak
I think there's probably three factors:

\- the majority of brand name items on Amazon aren't counterfeits. It's a big
problem, but it's also a big platform, with plenty of real stock and genuine
sellers.

\- not all items have counterfeits. Some brands and types of products are
under enough control or aren't popular/visible/profitable enough to be
counterfeited. And some are just just brands anyway - nobody is counterfeiting
the no-name junk brand USB cables that Amazon sells from fly-by-night
operations. Plenty of people actually buy this stuff and while they might or
might not get a poor quality product that might or might not adhere to
environmental or consumer protection laws, it isn't a counterfeit and they
might be happy.

\- some counterfeits are good enough. For exampel, you're unlikely to ever
notice you got a counterfeit book unless they do a bad job (apparently pretty
common - I've only gotten a couple I was suspicious of, but I am very careful
about buying books, but there are really low-effort garbage counterfeits
produced out there that are clearly fake, up to Wikipedia printouts.) Even
when they make the book out of cheaper paper or the book is badly printed, you
may not have the familiarity with the publisher to know that it's a
counterfeit and not just that the publisher doesn't suck.

------
benologist
I wonder if they will solve the mystery of how executives either didn't know,
or didn't do anything about it, for so many years even as it was widely
reported. It might have been more appropriate to use a federal investigative
body and start with whatever misconduct, or deficit of attention, has been
enabling the counterfeiters to thrive on Amazon for years.

------
panitaxx
I started buying clothing from the brand itself (eg shoes directly from
adidas, etc). Some appliances also direct. I sometimes buy food from Walmart
but only if they are the retailer (they don't seem to commingle inventories).
I bought some ssd directly from Samsung site. Another problem with amazon is
the sheer quantity of not-counterfeit but cheap unknown knockoffs. It seems
more like an expensive AliExpress.

~~~
cdubzzz
I haven’t bought from Amazon in years. A few weeks ago my toddler left a
rubber ball in our waffle maker and we didn’t realize it before turning it on
and melting the thing. It ruined the non-stick coating.

After a bit of research I found a new waffle maker to buy. The place I found
it had an Amazon affiliate link so I clicked through to price check — $94.
Then I checked the manufacturer’s site — $69.99. Ordered it on Monday and
it’ll get here tomorrow, free shipping.

This is a pretty common story for me. I almost always check Amazon out of
curiosity and most of the time it’s more expensive then other options even
when factoring in free shipping. I really don’t get what the upside is
supposed to be.

------
mjevans
Having a chain of ownership list would be a great help with this. Track and
report which company owned the item back to it's manufacture and who 'owned'
the IP of the run. Even more ideally also the production time, etc.

~~~
anonymousDan
Good shout. If only there were a technology to support this kind of
usecase....

~~~
Vendan
Good news, there is! It's called a database. When an item comes in, tag it
with a unique barcode and add a row to the database saying "Item X came from
company Y in shipment Z" and then sue/penalize/whatever company Y when it's
counterfeit.

~~~
somethingwitty1
This assumes it is really that simple. You are adding a manual, human process.
Humans make mistakes. Humans can intentionally make mistakes. Barcodes fall
off, get defaced, etc. Those barcodes, hardware and software require money and
up-keep. The humans receiving the products _also_ can make mistakes and return
the "wrong" item that happens to look the same (this is a source of
counterfeits, even at Walmart/Target). And then we get into the shipment
chain. Counterfeit swaps happen during the transit of packages to the
warehouse and to the receiver's home. This is a really, really hard problem.
And to be able to do it in a way that doesn't substantially raise the prices
of the products only complicates that more.

------
bradstewart
Is it safe to assume "Amazon Basics" products are not counterfeit? Obvious
clones of products from other brands, but quality-controlled by Amazon?

~~~
PaulWaldman
I was thinking that too. Unless someone claimed they are just reselling their
AmazonBasics items that were previously purchased from Amazon.

------
starpilot
I just bought some gym shorts from Target for $20. Amazon had some for the
same price, but numerous reviews with photos showed people were getting fakes.
Fuck that. Target of all places seems more curated than Amazon.

~~~
boulos
> Target of all places seems more curated than Amazon.

Isn’t this going to be true of any “pure” retailer? The nature of FBA and
third-party sellers just means there will always be at least some percentage
of fraud and so on that’s higher than “trick various people in the retailer to
sell fake goods”.

Particularly as it’s much easier for insiders at a retailer to steal from
their employer (and then resell via whatever means), I think the utility for
“put fake goods on the shelf” at a retail shop is basically zero. I dunno,
maybe you can trick/bribe the person near the start of the supply chain, but
it wouldn’t take long for returns to pile up and an investigation to find “Jim
and Sally colluded to sell fake gym shorts”.

~~~
jacques_chester
> _Isn’t this going to be true of any “pure” retailer?_

No. First-party retailers don't generally commingle stock with other third-
party retailers. They typically have few suppliers, often one supplier, for
each good. That's for many reasons, but it also makes it easy for them to
identify who sent them counterfeits.

Amazon is discovering what old-fashioned retailers learned long ago: customers
do not give a fuck who, ultimately, has injected the counterfeit. They will
blame the retailer.

If I was Wal-Mart I would be absolutely _hammering_ this point to customers.
I'd be running ads about "Shamazon". Tearful mothers whose child got sick.
Teens who saved up for a game system or phone and got a block of wood.
Grandparents who bought medical equipment and got a faulty knockoff.
Everything dangerous, disgusting, outrageous or even just annoying. I'd be
carpet-bombing every channel with ads amplifying the message that Amazon can't
guarantee what you get. Wal-Mart aren't saints, but their historical success
has rested heavily on an incredibly tight grip of their supply chain and
logistics. They do actually know what they have on the shelf.

~~~
bcassedy
Walmart's online store is a mess of 3rd party options now too. I went looking
for hair clippers at the start of the pandemic and all I could find were no-
name brands offered by third party vendors on their website.

~~~
cjsawyer
What’s left? Target and Best Buy?

~~~
acomjean
I've had good luck ordering directly from companies. For me it was Nike, a
yoga mat company, and some local toy retailers and a frame company. I still
buy stuff from amazon, but not critical stuff.

I knew things were going bad, when rock climbing gear was being counterfeited.
(2011).

[https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/recalls/2011-2-21/Informat...](https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/recalls/2011-2-21/Information
--copies-counterfeit-products)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/b685vi/new_climbe...](https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/b685vi/new_climbers_do_not_use_amazon_for_gear_unless/)

------
Trias11
Windows dressing.

It's not in Amazon's interests to reduce business by eliminating counterfeit
products, fake reviews, etc..

Real solution is for government to hold platform responsible for peddling
fakes and fraud to customers.

------
verdverm
I mentally added the word time in the middle of the domain name and chuckled.
It would be great if they did that, show that they still have a bit of
humanity left over there

------
Finnucane
I don't really get the attitude of 'I don't care about counterfeits because
it's easy to make returns.' I mean, you know what's even easier than that?
Ordering from a more trustworthy vendor and not having to make returns.
Getting the right thing the first time! If I have to go to the post office to
send a thing back, I might as well just go to an actual store and buy the
thing myself.

------
viburnum
You can’t just add anti-fraud sprinkles on top. The rampant fraud is built
into Amazon.com’s business model. Monitoring product quality is hard. All the
little shopkeepers and buying managers were actually doing work, work that
isn’t easily automated. Amazon’s recreating the problems of central planning
that the USSR had in product quality.

------
rfwhyte
And absolutely nothing will change. In fact the volume of counterfeit goods,
fake reviews and scams on Amazon and other marketplaces will only increase.
Its honestly not even really Amazon's problem at this point, its more that
there is an entire Chinese industry devoted to counterfeiting and scamming,
with literally hundreds of thousands of intelligent, capable people spending
their lives looking for ways to make a dishonest buck. Amazon is essentially
putting a band-aid on a leaking damn at this point. Until China actually puts
strong IP protections in place (They never will) there's really not much
western companies can do about it beyond paying lip service to a problem they
know they can't actually solve.

------
heavyset_go
Forgive me if I think this is both not enough and a little too late.

Too many incentives are aligned within Amazon to continue to ignore
counterfeits sold on their marketplace, and the only way I'll believe that
such a unit is effective against such incentives is with independent audits.

If this was an honest attempt to clean house, surely Amazon would welcome
audits with open arms.

------
esaym
No joke, if I need food items from online, I try to go with ebay before
amazon. I trust old/nearly expired or half opened boxes from some obscure ebay
user before getting anything editable from amazon. If people are
counterfeiting oral-b toothbrushes, I'm sure they are counterfeiting vanilla
extract and gourmet chocolate.

------
abootstrapper
Last two items I ordered online I skipped Amazon and ordered from the
manufacturer to avoid getting stuck with a counterfeit. I'm considering
dropping my Prime membership if this keeps up.

------
a0zU
I highly doubt that Amazon's 'counterfeit crimes unit' will be anything more
than just an advertising stunt and a token to use in court if accused of not
trying to stop counterfeits.

------
pps43
Is there a way to contact this new unit? I have a bunch of links to clearly
counterfeit products on Amazon. But something tells me that they might not be
particularly interested.

------
codezero
The cynic in me assumes they are doing this so they can make Amazon Basics
versions of popular counterfeited money and remove the angle that
counterfeiters are using...

------
mtnGoat
considering they make money either way, i feel like this could be kind of
dubious and just lip service. i would have more faith if an uninvolved party
was doing the work.

------
czbond
How will they be able to police this - won't it be like fake accounts on
Facebook or Twitter? Very easy to setup a new account?

------
CommanderData
Are they going to tackle the surge in poor quality face masks claiming to meet
FDA or European standards?

------
dilandau
Amazon is just a digital flea market, with all that the epithet entails. Shit-
quality Chinesium stuff, counterfeit everything, fake customers, fake
everything except the price. All amzn cares about is dominance, and they are
winning unfortunately.

------
dreamcompiler
At least five years too late, but I'll take it.

------
luizb
they should start by investigating the "Amazon Basics" brand

------
7863949364
They should start by investigating themselves for antitrust violations.

------
awinter-py
nos custodimus quod lingus

