

Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting - sinnet11

So I recently got engaged and in order to make some extra money I decided to take a moonlighting gig. Orignally scope was small, simple design changes etc etc. But since then a lot of things have come into scope to blow my original expectations on how long this project would be.<p>I love what I do, and I love developing. The problem is I can&#x27;t get over this constant stress of having to come home and maybe letting someone down by falling short of an initial commitment. I thought I&#x27;d enjoy it but this moonlighting gig is on my mind for most of the day.<p>This is my first time moonlighting, so maybe its because of that. But has anyone else felt overwhelmed for doing something like this?
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midnightmonster
Suppose I call a plumber over to fix my sink, and I say, "Hey, I've also
started building a guest house out back--I'd like the interior plumbing run
and the whole building connected to the city water. Can you get started on
that, too?"

The plumber could say:

A) Let me schedule a time to come back and look at that and give you an
estimate.

B) We just do repairs, not new construction. [Let me give you the card of my
friend who does that kind of work.]

C) We're completely booked for new construction right now. I don't expect to
have availability for that sort of thing until September.

What no plumber will ever say, though, is (D) "Uh, sure...I'll get started on
that as soon as I finish this sink, and I guess the $150 for the sink should
pretty much cover that."

If you said (D), what you are doing is simply a terrible idea that will not
serve you or your client well. But you don't have to keep doing it! You just
need to have a conversation where you say, "I gave you an estimate for X. We
are now doing YZA. I apologize for not having this conversation earlier--when
we switched from X to Y, or when we added Z. But now that we've also added A,
I realize belatedly that we need to restructure this project."

Apologize politely and sincerely but not excessively for your actual mistakes
--you didn't manage the project and client expectations well. Don't apologize
for doing your job well, or for insisting--even belatedly--on the project
conditions necessary to do your job well.

If you haven't said something ridiculous like (D), and your compensation and
timeline (and compensation timeline) have adjusted appropriately with the
project scope, then...well, you may have just bitten off more than you can
chew on this project.

That's ok. It happens. Same kind of conversation: "This project has become too
big for me to manage while moonlighting. <polite apologies> Can we break the
project into phases, or can I help you find someone able to complete a project
of this size in a timely fashion?" The client may be disappointed. They may be
angry. But the longer you try to be superman and just somehow get it all done
because it HAS to be done, the worse the situation gets for you and them. And
odds are the client will actually value clear communication and plausible
plan-making, even belatedly.

~~~
spotman
Agreed. If you are going to be a healthy (to yourself) consultant, you have to
learn the art of saying no.

I used to be very paranoid about saying no. I actually recall the first time I
did. I was running very low on sleep, and had been for some time. I needed a
breather, but I just couldn't risk losing my reputation for always-being-
there-and-always-getting-it-done.

After I (politely, but firmly) said no for the first time. It was a breath of
fresh air. No one criticized me, or stopped hiring me. In fact, I think a few
people close to me started working with me more, probably because I was
getting more sleep.

So, don't be afraid to say no. It takes some practice, but you'll get used to
it.

~~~
neltnerb
Yeah, I agree with this too. Especially when first starting out, I think it's
important to only allow two of the following (and ideally only one).

(a) Fixed Bid (b) Fixed Scope (c) Fixed Deadline

You're going to continue to find that clients almost never know the full scope
they want upfront, and once you've got a contract in place they'll always try
to get more done without paying more.

For me, the most stress-free way to do this is by doing it as an hourly rate,
with a ceiling on the number of hours before you need to ask for authorization
to do further work.

I know some people say to price on the value to the customer, and do fixed
prices per week, and so on. I personally find this hard to do because it's so
difficult to accurately gauge upfront how much work a project will be.

Usually I explain it to clients like this, depending on the situation:

\- If we make the project fixed scope, we will have to deal with renegotiating
everything if they find they want just a bit more. The overhead involved in
$1k-5k projects is just not worth doing the project at all at that point. Plus
they'll have to develop a very specific scope ahead of time, instead of just
letting me start work that can cause delays of months.

\- If the project is fixed bid, I'll have to make the price based on the worst
case scenario rather than the median, and they'll almost certainly end up
paying more than just paying me hourly.

------
ChuckMcM
I had a very similar experience when I moved to the bay area. Since money was
tight I used "extra" work to earn money for 'fun' stuff. A simple weekend
here, a few days there, kind of thing. And of course it got bigger and bigger
as people asked for more and more stuff. And one day I realized the stress of
not having anywhere in my life that was 'not work' was really getting to me. I
wrapped up everything, handed the big project that had pushed me over the edge
off to a friend, and switched to only self driven projects (mostly freelance
writing) as my 'beer money' supply. I found that for me, it was important that
if I chose not to work on my side project the only person it should impact
should be me. And that removed the stress for me.

~~~
2bluesc
> And one day I realized the stress of not having anywhere in my life that was
> 'not work' was really getting to me.

Same story for me. The extra money was for toys or some start-up down the
road. Went home for the Christmas holiday one year, relaxed for the first time
in a while and realized I wasn't enjoying the work anymore. After that I had a
chat with the start-up I was helping out and eased out of the project. They
were very understanding and we're still friends to this day.

Now I spend more time on side projects and lately my own start-up. Learned
alot in the process and wouldn't trade it.

~~~
sinnet11
> Now I spend more time on side projects and lately my own start-up. Learned
> alot in the process and wouldn't trade it.

This comment really resonates with me as I think this is going to be a crucial
learning point for me down the road.

------
josephjrobison
I 1000% know how you feel. While I haven't figured it out myself
(transitioning to only consulting because I couldn't do both for more than a
few hours a week of moonlighting), there are a few things I've learned.

To answer your question - absolutely I've felt and feel overwhelmed. After
coming home at 5, knowing you have 3 more hours of work to do after dinner,
for 3-4 weekdays and 1-2 weekend days sucks!

A few tips that have worked for me: -Is there any way you could get help for
some of the lower level portion of the work, and hire someone that costs
50-70% of your rate so that you still make a profit? -Can you tell the
moonlighting people that you work on their projects on Tuesday, Thursday and
Saturday so that you mentally know which days to focus on them and you don't
have to think about it 24/7? -Can you let them know on those days that you
check your email every 2 hours so that you can focus on the work (that way
you're not refreshing your inbox every 5 minutes)

Hope that helps in any way.

------
wmichelin
Have you been communicating with your client that the project scope exceeded
your expectations? You'd be better off being honest earlier on rather than
failing when they thought everything was going according to schedule.

~~~
colinbartlett
I'd say this is the key to reducing stress. Just expectations that you can
easily meet on your terms. If you can't meet them, don't take them on and find
another client you can satisfy. There certainly are clients and projects out
there who are willing to deal with longer turn arounds in exchange for a lower
price. And everyone is happy.

~~~
tluyben2
No. Once you started trading longer turn arounds for a lower price, clients
will use any further delay to lower the price further while it often actually
should go up (if you count your hours, you're probably spending more to get
those delays).

~~~
pyre
I don't think that anyone is advocating lowering the price in response to
requirements changes, etc. I think the idea is that the initial price might be
lower.

~~~
tluyben2
Well, he literally says longer turnaround for a lower price. I don't see why
you would lower the price for a longer turnaround? I know people do do it,
but, because it makes no sense usually (there are ofcourse exceptions here and
there), it often ends negatively for 'the provider'.

~~~
colinbartlett
I did not mean changing the price in the middle of a project. I meant finding
clients with needs and expectations that fit well with yours. For example, one
of my long-time clients has very flexible production schedules and I am
willing to give him a reduced rate for that because I can fill his project in
when I have time.

------
Justen
I'll just give you my take on the situation. You can back out and maybe offer
up another developer you know to replace you as a gesture of good will. Or,
since you mentioned feature/scope creep, sit down with your client and come up
with some precise details for what they want and what you can deliver. Right
now it's just this abstract mess of a project and that can seem daunting not
knowing exactly where the boundaries are.

------
brudgers
Bad projects, for however you choose to define "bad", are the price of
experience as a consultant. There are bad projects in the sense that they go
on longer than you expected and there are bad projects because you don't get
paid, for however you choose to define "not getting paid." Short term advice:

1\. If the scope is expanding and you're not getting paid, stop work.

2\. If the scope is expanding and you're getting paid, attach a higher price
to the additional work. That price should be high enough that it is worth your
while to do it...though I'm not sure what the pissed off fiance market rate is
these days.

3\. If the client wants changes, then that obviously changes the schedule. You
are not responsible for maintaining the same velocity beyond the time period
associated with the initial project scope...your velocity can change. The
client can then prioritize based on their new scope.

I had a very similar project. Client came back for phase two two years later
after making a mess of a lot of relationships during phase one. I learned to
put an expiration date on my rates after which if the project was not
completed, I had the right to renegotiate my terms, and that most people
recover from being let down when it comes to bargain priced services.

Good luck.

------
paulhauggis
Moonlighting may not be for you. I was a freelancer full time for a couple of
years and situations like this happened all the time.

What happens if you need to work extra hours for your day job? The
moonlighting gig will suffer and the client will most likely be breathing down
your neck to get the job finished asap.

You also can't get used to the new income (IE: spending more), because it's
going to be difficult to maintain these hours.

------
blt
I was in your exact situation. My day job at the time was very fulfilling. I
only took the moonlighting gig for money. I hated it - it was a web design job
and I'm a research/algorithms/systems person. I ended up spending way more
than my billable hours procrastinating and stressing about the gig. My
effective wage was shit. I didn't have free time to do stuff I enjoy.

I was young. I bailed hard and burned bridges. I could have handled it more
professionally but I don't regret my choice. Business commitments and
networking are not worth your sanity. If the gig is not essential to your
career goals, you will never need the client's goodwill. Since you have a day
job, you can omit it from your resume and nobody will ever know.

In the end, I probably spent all the extra money on drinks to ease stress and
restaurant meals because I didn't have time to cook. Unless you need the
moonlighting gig to survive, stick to your day job. Live frugally and try to
build skills/experience that will help you earn more money in the future.

~~~
sinnet11
Were you ever worried about your reputation?

~~~
midnightmonster
If you're in the position of being able to refund any money you have received
for which you didn't already clearly deliver whatever you promised, you can
walk away with reputation in a pretty good place.

E.g., I got in way, way over my head on a project for a startup once a few
years ago. They didn't know what they needed, and I had no true idea how much
work was involved. When I couldn't deliver I returned the money (which hurt,
but I could do it). The client later came back to me (!) with a much smaller,
better-defined project which I executed on well. They became a regular client
and have been worth six figures to me over the years. (It did help that they
tried another developer in the meantime who also didn't deliver but kept the
money and stopped returning calls.)

------
Milner08
I had something similar happen when doing an industry project for Uni. This
was a project with a strict deadline that counted for something like 40% of
the year. And they kept piling in features beyond the agreed upon scope. Not
wanting to let them down and also wanting a more impressive project I tried to
deliver them, but in the end I had to sit them down and explain that it wasn't
what we agreed upon and I couldn't feasibly implement them (Remember this was
for a Uni project, I wasn't being paid, in fact I was paying for the
privileged).

Id consider sitting down with the client and talking out the scope. It sounds
like the real problem is feature creep. Try to clamp down on this, maybe get
them to come up with a decent spec, sign off on it and attempt to keep as
close to that as you can. Any other features they want can then be considered
extras for future implementation rather than extra stuff to worry about now.

------
Gustomaximus
Yep. Things helped me is to set some boundaries to ensure I do get some
downtime. Also I select work that is more time flexible. Eg I do marketing so
I prefer to get strategy/advertising/lead generation type gigs where I can
work evening hours and not have to be on call. I avoid website development
work, as much as I like that, it requires me to project mange people and be on
call at short notice. Not sure how that translates in developer world, but it
seems scope creep is the bigger issue for you, not the original job. A bit
part is probably increasing the billing at a rate that motivates you for every
extra component the client adds. It will also make them think about what they
ask for more carefully than clients who just add random ideas.

------
roneesh
I have a feeling you're overwhelmed because you didn't do the proper work up
front to ensure scope creep wouldn't happen, and that you'd always feel
compensated for your work. A lot of freelancers publish guides for this type
of work, and I think you should read one. Also make sure the contract/tax
stuff is handled properly too! So you're not stressing next April.

Try reading this guys book, seems legit, maybe he offers strategies for
handling scope creep and such:
[http://texmexconsulting.com/](http://texmexconsulting.com/)

Then drink a beer, do some Yoga, and relax before the evenings work!

------
damoncali
Been there done that. Have a talk with the client NOW, and reset the
expectations more realistically. You'll both be less stressed out.

Honest, frequent communication is the answer to this problem. A strong work
ethic, ironically, just makes it worse.

------
dredmorbius
Mike Monteiro - "Fuck you pay me"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3RJhoqgK8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3RJhoqgK8)

See his comments on contracts, starting generally at 7m 20s

Scope creep is included. Renegotiate. It's a new project.

------
segmondy
feature and time management.

When working for others and developing software. You have to nail/bolt and
anchor the features down. No changes! Or sure, you can make changes but have
to drop other features Or you get paid extra for new requests AND still have
the schedule stretched.

