
Have Smartphones Destroyed a Generation? (2017) - kombinat
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/has-the-smartphone-destroyed-a-generation/534198/
======
learnstats2
This article/researcher makes claims that: a) there is a mental health crisis
among teenagers which is not parallel to other comparable generations, and b)
that crisis is linked to mobile phones.

I'm not convinced by either claim.

In my experience of working with teenagers over the last couple of decades,
there is a general trend that they are now better at communicating their
emotional needs and emotional state. If teens are more able to clearly and
openly express the fact that they are sad, does that mean they are more sad? I
think not.

Teenagers face far greater economic insecurity than before, and are more
acutely aware of it. What will the workforce look like when they graduate
highschool? Jobs that teenagers would have been invited to do are being
replaced with automated checkouts and computer vision algorithms. Teenagers
are required to go into more debt than ever, to escape this lack of
opportunities via education.

The article identifies that today's teenagers: get in less car accidents, have
less risky sex, have a lower rate of teenage pregnancy, ingest less risky
substances, are generally less violent - and presents this all as bad because
it is different than what came before. Is it bad? Would people 20 years ago
have thought this was bad?

The author expresses great surprise that people sleep with their phones beside
their bed - whereas, it is a great surprise to me that she doesn't. It has an
extremely useful function as an alarm clock.

I suspect that she would find that a vast majority of her generation of
47-year olds also sleeps with their phone within an arm's reach.

~~~
pojzon
What a great summary. Tho I think the part about issues our society faces is a
lot bigger than those few examples. Educated people have more than ever
reasons to be depressed now:

\- pollution

\- economic stagnation

\- inflation

\- antibiotics failing

\- global warming

\- debt

\- automation and artifical intelligence

\- politics failing to tackle those issues (its a circus in some countries)

\- issues like Brexit

\- natural disasters

\- hard manipulation via mass-media

\- addiction algorithms in modern games/medias/programs

\- goverments cutting expenses on healthcare and education

And many more. Im surprised young ppl still have hope, thats very brave of
them.

~~~
iliketosleep
> automation and artifical intelligence

Isn't this supposed to be good for us and make people's lives better? If
that's not the case, then it's really something to be worried about.

~~~
petronio
People still fear the "robots will take all of our jobs!" dialogue. Many
societies still have work as a core component of personal value, so the idea
of people having to work less doesn't translate to "Great, I can let these
robots do the work and I can enjoy myself" but to "I can't find work and so
I'm a worthless disgrace."

~~~
detaro
It's more that most societies have "doing work" as a core component of
obtaining money, and requiring money for things like food, housing, ...

~~~
petronio
That is also true, but that is something that can be mitigated and resolved
with government policies. However, that is unlikely to happen effectively in
societies that have a work as a core component of personal value as they will
say "they're not working? Why should we help them?" At some point the policy
changes will NEED to happen, but the societies with that core value will have
a very difficult time adjusting as value systems can't be changed overnight
like laws can.

~~~
learnstats2
It _can_ be mitigated but it _isn 't_ being mitigated.

At some point those changes will need to happen, as you say, but it would be
better if we didn't reach the point of needing a revolution to get there.

------
sytelus
More than a mental health crisis or go outside more, the biggest harm that
social+smartphone has ever done is end of _creating things_. The new
generation is spending huge amount of time in _consumption_ and very little in
creation. This is going to be a boon for the producers (book writers, movie
makers etc) who will be in short supply for much larger consumption crowd.
This will eventually be reflected in massive wealth gap where someone mints
out large some of money out of 5 minute YouTube video becoming money sinks and
while consumption crowd simply becomes money sources.

~~~
sideshowb
Look at the number of musicians, photographers etc complaining they can't make
a living nowadays because someone else is willing to do the same thing for
free.

Nobody being creative you say?

Though I share skepticism on smartphones. Off to read a book to my daughter
now.

~~~
Dumblydorr
As a gigging pianist who struggles to get performances, I often think back to
before recorded music. There was a musician playing or there was no music.
Think of all the functions and events that automation, via recordings, has
eliminated. It is not surprising, therefore, that the careers of musicians
have been hollowed out and I must code to pay the bills.

~~~
sideshowb
True, though the same thing applies even to DJing.

------
avinium
If/when I have kids, I think I'll be doing everything I can to keep them off
smart phones (or at least, YouTube + social media + games like Fornite).

All these platforms seem explicitly designed to exploit insecurities and
encourage a mindless mob mentality. It's the antithesis of individualism and I
cannot see how it could possibly improve one's life (at least, before you have
the maturity to be comfortable in your own skin).

The more I read articles like this, the more I think the whole thing is pure
toxicity.

I don't know how realistic or practical it's going to be to ban
smartphones/social media, while still encouraging programming, internet
research, experimentation and so on.

~~~
_nalply
If you don't give your kids smart phones you cut them off of people. It's a
conundrum.

You will only be able to keep your kids off smart phones if you live in a
community not using smart phones much for example the Amish. I think parents
of the one percent could also create such a community for their children if
they are diligent and choose the right private school.

My 6 year old son will go to a summer camp where smart phones are expressly
forbidden. Not that I give him a smart phone but at least the older children
won't have smart phones, too.

~~~
avinium
Yeah, I suspect it really requires a community of like-minded parents.

Camp is a good start. For what it's worth, one state in Australia just
announced a ban on phones during school hours - couldn't agree more.

[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-25/victoria-to-ban-
mobil...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-25/victoria-to-ban-mobile-
phones-in-public-schools-from-first-bell/11246414)

~~~
_nalply
That's not enough, I am afraid.

I think we should think holistically, this means, don't only look at school
but also at family, peer relations and society at large.

In other words I propose that we should completely forbid functional smart
phones for children below 10 years then officially introduce smart phones in
school as a part of the school's curriculum. The curriculum also limits usage
and relaxes the rules when the children get older. Children also should have a
say about rules.

Also needed are places where children and teenagers can meet and these places
must be autonomously accessible (for example near the school but independent
from school).

Such a community allows the children to learn about internet and social media
in a safe and controlled manner. I think the children would prefer to play
together instead of staying alone in bedrooms anyway.

~~~
homonculus1
How on earth could that ever be realistically enforced?

~~~
_nalply
The Amish know how to enforce their own rules.

~~~
homonculus1
By common values and mutual consent. What you're proposing, in the context of
broader society, would have to be imposed top-down. Maybe I misunderstood and
you're just saying it as a nice what-if, in which case I would agree that
small children should be grounded in the physical world first.

~~~
_nalply
Yes, this is a what-if, and for some lucky people even achievable (Amish and
one percent).

------
thulecitizen
I don’t think it’s smartphones, I think it’s the fact that the entire
ecosystem of our most used apps is a walled garden. Our entire experience is
made up of proprietary corporate apps. We have little choice to change or
create our own information flows - everything is dictated by hidden
code/algorithms. If I can’t see the code, I am not the one doing the
controlling, I am being controlled. The most detrimental app we all use -
banking and money creation, is the most hidden and unchallenged one so far.
We’re still using the legacy Industrial Age money and banking system.

I think it’s time that we evolve to a more compassionate world.

To help build the distributed, cooperative and open source economy check out
The MetaCurrency Project (Ceptr, Holochain), Secure Scuttlebutt and Manyverse,
DAT, Loomio, CoBudget and others

What does the ‘More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know is Possible’ (Charles
Eisenstein) look like to you?

Does having a closed source system for our communication, banking and
governance tools help keep the ‘smartest’ people at the helm, or is this
grandiosity and immature magician energy? Does it create an oppressor, victim
and savior triangle?

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
I don't think it's smartphones either. I think it's a philosophical issue with
digital systems in general. The over-simplified abstractions, physical
distancing, and flattening of affect lead to superficiality and constant
unfocused distraction.

Open/closed isn't even an issue compared to the limitations of the medium
itself - because there is no such thing as a truly open digital system.

Only the smartest people can create industrial-scale digital systems _by
definition_ , so the idea that opening up the source code will somehow change
this is very hard to take seriously.

------
tuxxy
Smartphones and social media have begun to represent this weird post-modern
phenomena of the destruction of social relationships.

So few social experiences happen through a non-cybernetic medium now. The
average number of interactions a person has online now must be higher than
those offline. Platforms like Facebook or Twitter don't connect us with more
people, they detach us from more people and connect us to their platform.

~~~
gambiting
On the other hand.....surely there is some value to being able to communicate
instantly with people from vastly different geographies and backgrounds? Like,
I'm talking daily to two guys from about 4000km away, and I don't even know
what they look like - we just help each other on a gamedev group. If I have an
issue with my car I can go to a dedicated group for that model on FB and ask
literally hundreds of owners a question - when my dad had an issue with his
soviet-made MZ motorcycle the best he could do was just take the thing apart
and hope for the best.

Like, when I'm away "on my phone" I frequently actually talk to someone -
there is human interaction in there.

~~~
defterGoose
This point always gets made in any similar discussions. I think on it's face
it makes sense; why wouldn't a freer flow of information be good? But I've
come to believe that maybe this is too simplistic a view of the actual
effects. History teaches us that people are strongly tribalistic. While it's
true that disparate groups can sometimes come together and augment their
success, it's also true that proximity often causes conflict. There's probably
a strongly evolutionary mechanism behind this. So while it might feel like the
free availability of information and the free availability of empathy are one
and the same, they really aren't. And might it turn out that such a
misconception could do real harm?

~~~
yuhe00
I agree. It's true that it is easier than ever to have instant access to just
about anyone in the world, but because it's so easy, we become less interested
in actually investing in people and forming lasting bonds. Why bother when we
can get what we need without? What used to be genuine connections formed by
necessity and shared experiences have now become quick and easy transactions.
Social media and the gig economy have made interpersonal relations into fast
food, and the world feels smaller and less fullfilling because of it.

------
client4
I believe 200 years ago people were asking if books were destroying a
generation.

My parents generation wondered if video games was destroying mine.

Now it's smartphones.

~~~
dlphn___xyz
its the erosion of our culture

------
hutzlibu
I did not read the article, because I usually do not click such titles (only
comments section), because obviously, no, the smartphone generation is not
"destroyed", just different. Some changes for the better, some for the worse.

The good? The possibilities of smartphones are just awesome. It is amazing to
be in touch with people all over the world. And all this huge knowledge ..
avaiable in an blink. Who does even remember how it was to not be able to
google just something you want to know? You needed to have books, or know
expert people, or people to know which book to read. And now? Just go online
and if you know how, you will find your information. Or get your amusement,
your news, your need to be acnowledged.

But all of this is still brand new. So we still have to learn not to get lost
in it. Be still aware that you have a physical body with needs and sensations.
And people seem to forget, that doing sports or climbing a mountain is
something very different, from watching a video about it. But television is
even older and there it was only consumption. Now it is interaction - only,
and that is sadly a bad part, mostly controlled by coorporations who wants to
distract your attention as a buisness modell. Something there got really out
of hand and with kids growing up with tailered ads accustomed to data from
their whole online activity ever ... than this is where I see the real danger.
But kids are allways much smarter than the older generation thinks they are,
so I believe they will be doing fine.

------
paulcarroty
I've stopped using smartphones 'cause started to feel yourself like "Walking
dead" personage: public transport, stores, streets - many people like zombies
watching inside their screens. This is really scaring. And of course the one
of the biggest factors of loneliness epidemic around the world.

~~~
TeMPOraL
And I keep repeating: with the proliferation of IMs, those "zombies watching
inside their screens" are likely engaged in a much richer social life than the
generations before them. Smartphones and the Internet removed the impact of
space and diminished the impact of time on communication. What do you think
these "zombies" are doing with their screens? In a big part, they're talking
to other people!

Also, the obligatory photo: [https://cdn-
images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*U36hBj8i-C7JJJxS4...](https://cdn-
images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*U36hBj8i-C7JJJxS4MP2HQ.jpeg).

~~~
Kye
I can't even imagine having the conversations I have on social media with the
people around me. Talking animals discussing kink gear at Pride. Julián Castro
acknowledging trans people at the debate. Getting help and sharing information
on a piece of software made by people on the other side of the continent (or
planet). The rights of androids and holograms.

How do I even find a common language with people whose main activities are
poker, racing, and sports? These are all fine activities, but I always want to
go off and do _anything_ else when I try to socialize locally. We don't click.

It's not like I was more interested in them before I had an always-on internet
connection. Social media and the internet in general gave me an outlet and
community for the things I was drawn to before the internet entered the
picture.

There aren't many people around here who would get this joke:
[https://snouts.online/@Kye/102329949919207919](https://snouts.online/@Kye/102329949919207919)

------
askafriend
Has TV destroyed a generation?

~~~
oblio
Heck, the internet, radio, movies, the telegraph have all "destroyed"
generations.

People change, generations are different. That's the way the world works.

~~~
rohan1024
The previous generation was fighting world war. This generation is fighting
with itself. What is bad? I am not so sure. To see long term effects of this
we will have to wait.

One thing is sure though after world war people changed and hopefully the self
destruction mode of this generation might change themselves. Maybe for good or
bad. Again we will have to wait.

~~~
detaro
The generation of todays teenagers parents didn't fight a world war. Even
their parents typically didn't.

------
thruhiker
Smartphones have not destroyed a generation.

~~~
benrbray
Betteridge's Law of Headlines
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headli...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines))

------
tictoc
It's cyclical. None of this matters, because we adapt. It was rock n roll,
television, video games, now smart phones. It will be something else. Perhaps
we are all mentally screwy, or perhaps it's another exaggeration. Either way,
it's too big. It's like the ice age. It just crushes any and all things. It's
not inherently evil. It's just new technology. We will get use to it. People
are addicted, but there will be a pullback. It will come back to equilibrium.
Or it won't. But life will keep ticking along.

~~~
bvhg3
Not necessarily, since we now live in a world where your every movement,
action, relationship, and communication is intercepted and analyzed. Your
thoughts are next. We don't need microchips because our phones are our
microchips, but we may get them anyway, for "security" (that's security of
government against its people of course). Things change when we have
autonomous drone swarms flitting across our cityscapes and nanobots picking
away at our insides. Do you believe it is possible to control a person's will?
These are different times, and the life that "keeps ticking along" is not
necessarily for any of "us".

------
leonroy
The article describes declines in amount of sleep. Having just finished
Matthew Walker’s book Why We Sleep I was surprised to discover that measurable
cognitive effects and mental health problems like depression and anxiety occur
when sleep drops by as little as one hour (7 instead of 8).

It’s certainly believable that smart phones do affect sleep if nothing else
and if so that could explain in part the increased incidences of mental health
problems and other issues described in the article.

------
he0001
I think it really have destroyed the idea of how the previous generation think
that the next generation should look like. I think we’re only in the beginning
of a very different world the post WWII folks lived. People grow up much
faster nowadays and are being exposed to things never thought of before. The
next generations will do things differently, and unless we destroy ourselves,
that’s a good thing.

------
Causality1
>I call them iGen.

Everyone else on planet earth calls them Generation Z or Zoomers. Dammit this
is that author who makes up her own words for things that already have well-
established monikers isn't it. I knew she'd make it back on here at some
point.

~~~
mattcoles
iGeneration is a long established term for Gen Z. This author among many
others claims to have coined the moniker but has done so since at least 2006.

[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Generation_Z](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Generation_Z)

------
cuillevel3
We're also getting better at helping young people grow and diagnosing their
issues. That may be a reason behind the numbers from health, before they were
just dumped on society without a higher education.

------
arandr0x
Fahrenheit 451 basically called it with the whole "people in their living
rooms never alone with their neighbors seeing inside through screens" part.

------
stunt
It is sad to see what is happening to people. Just take public transport and
you will see so many people scrolling social networks and consuming useless
content.

~~~
mr_toad
When I was young they read newspapers, books and magazines.

Nobody made eye contact, let alone talked, unless they were crazy, looking to
make trouble, or both.

~~~
asdff
No one used to whip out a newspaper in the middle of the checkout line or for
those thirty seconds in the elevator.

------
cairo_x
Looking at most of that data, a lot of this seems to be a combination of a
tanking economy/jobs market/gig economy, and a technology that allows one to
feel more connected without having to spend money to go out. The iPhone has
worn the continuing echoes of late stage capitalism like a glove, and in the
same way the homeless use drugs to make their shitty lives more bearable, it
seems to me people are doing the same with phones. You can sleep anywhere if
you're drunk, and you don't have to spend money by going out (goods and
transport) if you have your phone/and/or services that popped up to support
the interwebs 2.0.

~~~
tomcam
How is the economy tanking?

~~~
tzakrajs
For the lower and middle classes, expenses keep getting more expensey and
wages seem not to budge.

Incomes
[https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2018/10/1...](https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2018/10/16/u-s-
household-incomes-a-51-year-perspective)

Housing [https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/24/home-prices-rising-faster-
th...](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/24/home-prices-rising-faster-than-wages-
report.html)

College Tuition [https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/how-much-college-tuition-
has...](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/how-much-college-tuition-has-
increased-from-1988-to-2018.html)

Of course the economy for the millionaires and billionaires has been booming.
A great time.

------
beobab
If a news article has a question as it's headline, then answer is almost
always "no".

------
axilmar
No smartphones for my kids until they reach 18.

Human interaction cannot be replaced by a screen and a keyboard.

~~~
tapland
Human interaction outside of school is coordinated by kids with smartphones,
using smartphone apps, to other kids who have smartphones.

No joke a child without a smartphone would seem weird to the rest of the group
and risk alienation bases solely on the lack of that smartphone.

~~~
krapht
Seriously, even as an adult I have circles of friends who exclusively organize
events through Facebook and interact with each other through Snapchat and
Instagram. When I was a wee nerd I would've resented my parents intensely if
they had cut me off from my AIM and ICQ accounts, hah.

Social media is like booze - social lubricant when used responsibly, but can
cause problems in those with addictive personalities. Teach your children to
use it responsibly, instead of forcing them to be teetotalers.

------
laughingbovine
Short answer: no. Long answer: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

------
wwright
Ah, Betteridge’s law:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headli...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines)

------
brianpgordon
This has got to be the most glaring instance of Betteridge's law that I've
ever encountered.

------
Animats
(2017)

------
looeee
Betteridge's law: for any headline ending in a question, the answer is 'no'.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headli...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines)

~~~
TheCapeGreek
It's surprising how actually effective it is when trying to determine if an
article is going to be worth your time.

~~~
antisthenes
Combine it with Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap) and you're left
with a very small subset of decent journalism.

------
red-bob
Saw a pic that Young people are growing horns from cellphone use

------
inamberclad
Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends
in a question mark can be answered by the word no." [0]

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines)

------
kstenerud
Have smartphones destroyed a generation?

Has the internet destroyed a generation?

Have video games destroyed a generation?

Has TV destroyed a generation?

Has radio destroyed a generation?

Have novels destroyed a generation?

Each of these have been flogged ad-nauseum by the media in their time of peak
popularity so that the older people can sit back with a smug quip "Kids these
days..."

~~~
Invictus0
Did you actually read the article? Because all of the author's claims have
data to match, it's not just the perennial kids these days rant. As a member
of the so called iGen, I can attest anecdotally that the prevalence of anxiety
and mental health issues is very real.

~~~
philpem
I help run meetups for, well, furries. Helped out with conventions too.

At least for that societal segment the prevalence of mental health is obvious,
though I wonder if the rise is more that people are slowly becoming less keen
to ostracise people with mental health issues and more keen to try and help
them.

I sorely hope that my idle musing proves true. Because bottling it up forever
didn't seem to help much.

~~~
Invictus0
It's hard to believe that one could hide a mental health disorder for long. I
have had relationships with two girls with anxiety and its effects are easy to
see. One had a nervous breakdown driving on the highway, eventually beginning
SSRIs after the relationship ended, and the other needed to take medication
daily to function normally. The second had started taking meds only briefly
before we began dating and so it was a constant battle(? not really the right
word) for her to discover that she could do things while on the medication
that she was previously too afraid to do before, such as socializing in large
groups and other things like that.

------
DaTwant
Depends if you think horns aren't cool
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/21/are-
yo...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/21/are-young-people-
growing-horns-because-of-mobile-phones-not-so-fast)

~~~
lordgrenville
That was debunked: [https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/06/debunked-the-
absurd-...](https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/06/debunked-the-absurd-story-
about-smartphones-causing-kids-to-sprout-horns/)

