
Tech Giants Take Their Talent Hunt to Cambridge, UK - adventured
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/03/technology/cambridge-artificial-intelligence.html
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angarg12
> As the tech workers land the big salaries, home prices are skyrocketing, and
> the locals are being squeezed out.

Joke is on them, I'm a new tech immigrant to Cambridge and I still can't buy a
house here.

~~~
cup-of-tea
House prices have been skyrocketing for ages already and it's helped by the
fact that Cambridge is within commuting distance of London. There's no way
your average senior dev could afford to buy a house in Cambridge at this
point.

~~~
swebs
We have the exact same problem in the other Cambridge (Massachusetts).

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angarg12
> According to the recruitment website Hired, the average tech salary in
> London is $78,000 a year, versus $142,000 in Silicon Valley.

And this is one of the reasons for the brain drain that the mention before.
Silicon Valley firms pay significantly more than the competition, and they are
still paying almost half of what they do in the US.

It isn't only about money, but it would be naive to deny it's impact on
people's decision on where to live and work.

~~~
adventured
In complete terms it's more like 3x that $78k figure.

The salary would be bad enough. The big US tech companies are nearly all
publicly traded. So that $142,000 is really $250,000 or more in total
compensation. The UK, and Europe more broadly, not only can't compete with the
salaries, they can't compete with the ability to dish vast stock compensation
thanks to the immense market caps that Google et al. have. If you're really
great at something, Google can trivially give you millions of dollars in stock
if it makes sense. What company in Britain can compete with that?

The skeptics will say something about healthcare in the US as a counter. The
top 1/4 in the US have easy, fast access to some of the most elite medical
care on the planet. And if you're making $142k in salary in the US, your
healthcare is entirely paid for.

There are only two strong counters, one is that the quality of life can be
very high in parts of wealthy Western Europe, and the other is cultural
(preferring one culture over another).

~~~
robert_foss
My personal counter is that I just couldn't morally accept contributing taxes
to a nation which:

    
    
        - Exploits the poor and non-citizens
        - Overthrows governments and bullies smaller countries
        - Has only the most rudimentary social security system
        - Does not really have a concept of healthy work/life balance. With little time off and none at all for people with newborns.
        - Takes near-zero environmental responsibility
        - Literally spies on the entire population of the rest of the world
        ...

~~~
bodas
Even on a selfish level, the extra 2-3 weeks of PTO in UK is easily more
important than the extra compensation in the US. What's the point of having
more money if you are stuck in an office for more of the year and can only
spend it on material goods? As you say, for women the difference in maternity
leave is laughable.

~~~
TulliusCicero
Eventually at Google US you get 5 weeks PTO, which is the same as in Google
London. Plus Google has four more holidays in the US than in the UK.

~~~
bodas
"Eventually" but to get to that point you have to endure years of getting half
the time off that a burger flipper gets in McDonalds UK. Honestly it's a bit
humiliating.

~~~
TulliusCicero
The more limited time does suck, but on the other hand the huge amount of
money makes it way easier to retire earlier, so you can have more time off in
the long run if you want.

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drej
I used to work in Cambridge, a tech job of sorts. It was swell, the quality of
life is great, London really close as well.

There were only two downsides. One, pretty bad public transport and driving
was often not an option. Two, very few flats, so you’d mostly share with
others in houses.

Last but not least, there is a great divide between the students, the so-
called professionals (meaning tech, medical research, aeronautics etc.) and
town people. The frictions were commonplace.

~~~
vilhelm_s
What kind of frictions did you see?

~~~
jingleheimer
It's town vs gown. You have separate areas and generally don't mingle. There
is an age difference as well as a cultural and class difference. Much of
Cambridge is gated off into colleges that a town person can't go unless
escorted by someone connected to the university.

I was in the gown group, but even within this group there are additional
degrees of stratification.

~~~
vilhelm_s
I went to Cambridge as an undergrad, and indeed I interacted basically
exclusively with other undergrads. Now as an adult I'm living in Cambridge,
Massachusetts, and there are tons of undergrad students on the street, and I
basically never interact with them at all (nor go into the the various
university buildings that are scattered throughout the town).

But I wouldn't describe that as friction? If anything, it seems the opposite
of friction, there are separate groups of people who are smoothly gliding past
each other... I guess what I'm wondering is, do you feel there are any
concrete problems or inconveniences caused by the town/gown distinction?

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EliRivers
The UK could pitch itself as a place rich US tech companies can buy top talent
at low price. I have seen some (not many, to be honest) US tech companies open
offices in the UK so they can pay half or less for staff, compared to what
they'd pay at home. If Brexit goes as badly as it might, the pound could be
even cheaper.

~~~
ForHackernews
Why are UK tech salaries so low compared to the US?

~~~
cyberpunk0
Because when tech companies come to places in the us they become gentrified
and everything becomes expensive. In most cases tech companies coming to an
area has a devastating effect as people who had lived in an area forever are
forced out due to the insane spike in cost of living.

~~~
ryanx435
No. You are putting effect before cause.

It's the high salaries that cause gentrification, not gentrification that
causes high salaries.

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justsomedude43
I wouldn't move to US for $140k from my £40k salary in the UK unless they
point a gun at my face and force me to do it. So to each their own I guess.

~~~
6ak74rfy
I am thinking about moving from US to London. So, I am curious to know why you
prefer UK to US despite the salary gap.

Also, do you know how does their healthcare compare?

~~~
hacker_9
For one, our healthcare is free. Though many companies still provide private
healthcare as a benefit. Personally I agree with OP, I wouldn't want to live
in the US either. Mainly because capitalism has been taken to an ugly extreme
and you might get paid more but you also work more etc. Not to mention the tax
and tips culture. Of course there are problems here too; it rains a lot more,
and every conversation that goes on long enough always ends up as some sort of
brexit complaint ...

~~~
sjm-lbm
> every conversation that goes on long enough always ends up as some sort of
> brexit complaint

To be fair, we definitely have a problem with normal/non-political
conversations suddenly turning political as well. It's even a problem that
started in 2016, too :/.

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scotchmi_st
I get the style this article is going for, but Cambridge Science Park (and
surrounding areas) have quietly been a major hub for tech for at least the
last 2-3 decades. Lots of biotech research, but Microsoft Research has been
there since as long as I can remember (I went to school around the corner) as
well as major offices for Intel, ARM and any other major player you can think
of.

If I had to give an answer to the question 'why now?', I would say because of
investment, and also Cambridge has really modernised as a city in the last few
years. Plus it is a genuinely nice place to live- good schools, you can cycle
and walk everywhere, and cars aren't really allowed in the city centre.

------
eddd
Why would you chase people from Universities who have high salary expectations
when you have the internet? It is beyond me. Developers storm remote
positions, yet the industry is super slow with adoption.

~~~
zavi
Because in-person collaboration is more effective.

~~~
cup-of-tea
Haha, erm... source?

~~~
detritus
General life experience?

I don't doubt that the parent wasn't being absolutely comprehensive in the
scope of their answer, but surely you appreciate that direct communication in
person is.. well, at the very least 'efficient'?

I can't believe you're actually wanting a source for this, lol

~~~
cup-of-tea
> but surely you appreciate that direct communication in person is.. well, at
> the very least 'efficient'?

No, I don't. I believe written communication is far more efficient. Cavemen
talk. Writing is the greatest technology we've ever invented. Forget all your
latest devops crazes, you can't do anything useful without writing.

~~~
bartread
> I believe written communication is far more efficient.

Categorically wrong. Two examples:

1) Years ago I was moving out of a shared house and looking for someone to
move into my room. One person in particular would only communicate via email
about coming to view the room. Consequently _days_ elapsed before we'd got a
final arrangement that could have been sorted out with a 10 minute phone call,
despite having my number, and me having theirs. Then, when I took half a day
off to wait in for this person to visit, they missed the appointment. When I
checked my email it turned out they'd emailed me a few minutes before they
were due to turn up to tell me they weren't going to make it. Again, despite
having my phone number. Already irritated by their behaviour this obviously
left me fuming.

2) Just the past few days I've been dealing with an "urgent" support incident
where the two people involved have been exchanging emails for three days: a
conversation that could be easily accelerated with a call.

In both these cases direct synchronous communication is the key: this might be
face to face or on the phone, or a video call, but in no way is written
communication more efficient.

~~~
maccard
> Categorically wrong

I disagree. Yesterday I was trying to organise a visit to a luthier for a
guitar repair. He told me to phone him, so I phoned, he didn't answer. I left
a voicemail, and he phoned me back 15 minutes later, I missed him. On the
third attempt, we spoke. I explained what I had written in the email, and he
told me that I should call in with the guitar. Overall, it took ~20 minutes of
back and forth to resolve an issue that could have been answered in the reply
where he told me to phone him.

If you phone me, you are likely to call me at an inconvenient time and
interrupt what I'm doing. If you send me an email, and I'm free, I'll respond
immediately. If I'm in the middle of something, I'll respond when I'm finished
what I'm doing.

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ensiferum
“How do we stop the A.I. brain drain to the U.S. — or to the U.S. companies
anyway?”

Uh.. create an alternative work place with comparable benefits and
compensation?

~~~
swebs
No, no, how do we stop brain drain to US companies while still paying less
than half of what those companies pay?

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sjg007
Microsoft has been in Cambridge for decades.

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carbine
Genuinely surprised at how much most people on this thread seem to consider
salary as the most important variable when it comes to where you'd want to
live.

Relocating TO the US from other countries is often a nightmare, no matter how
talented you are.

And I personally care more about how much I like the culture and environment
around me after work and on the weekends than how much I'm being paid.

SF is really great, but it's not London.

All that is to say, there's more to it than money. At least for some people.

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chaostheory
This is a bit strange that this is news considering a lot of the foundations
of the tech industry were created at Cambridge and it's never stopped, with
ARM being the most visible example. I'm assuming that average people outside
of Europe are not aware of Cambridge's importance. Is it also true of the avg
person in Europe as well?

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zeristor
Strangely the discussions seem to be focused on salaries and the cost of
living in the UK.

The article talks about academics being lured away from teaching, which is a
problem, I imagine that academics could perhaps guide students in the
companies they employed at, like a paid course? Although there's a difference
between pure research and getting stuff done.

With all these people working at US companies it creates hubs of knowledge,
networks of people, that in turn could spawn new companies, which in the long
run is surely a good thing.

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lordnacho
> According to the recruitment website Hired, the average tech salary in
> London is $78,000 a year, versus $142,000 in Silicon Valley.

Does anyone have a like-for-like comparison? What do the FAANGS pay for the
same thing in one place or the other? Is Glassdoor reliable for these stats?

I don't think the comparison is so easy, because London has a huge financial
tech market which SV probably doesn't. But those incomes might end up in the
"finance jobs" column rather than "tech". HFT coders get paid a fair bit, but
could reasonably claim to be either.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Those incomes enter into the consultant column.

