
Learning to Read in Your 30s Profoundly Transforms the Brain - dnetesn
http://maxplanck.nautil.us/article/338/learning-to-read-in-your-30s-profoundly-transforms-the-brain
======
sarabande
Cool article! The original is actually from a year and a half ago
([https://www.mpg.de/11312776/lesenlernen-veraenderung-
gehirn-...](https://www.mpg.de/11312776/lesenlernen-veraenderung-gehirn-
erwachsene)), curious why they published it only now in English.

One quote bothered me, however: "Hindi, one of the official languages of
India, is based on Devanagari, a scripture with complex characters describing
whole syllables or words rather than single letters."

This isn't entirely correct.

Devanagari:

\- isn't complex. there are only 46 characters, whose strokes aren't
meaningfully harder than Latin ones to write, unlike, say, Chinese where
strokes can be intricate. They're typically one or two-stroke characters.

\- 1:1 unambiguously maps writings to sounds, unlike English. yes, it does map
to syllables. it's immediately obvious how to pronounce a word when reading
it. I can't imagine them having to learn a language like English, where you
have to rote memorize exceptions all the time.

\- doesn't have characters that describe whole words...not sure where they got
this idea. There are really short words that can be said with one syllable,
but that's coincidence, like in English "a" is both a character and a word,
though I wouldn't claim that letters map to words because of it.

~~~
posterboy
English is easy to learn if you just pronounce it like it's written and how it
was pronounced, you _know_

~~~
OrwellianChild
Seems like a good time to link to "The Chaos" by Gerard Nolst Trenite [1]...
It serves to educate native English speakers on how absurd the language
(written vs. spoken) is, while simultaneously striking fear into the hearts of
ESL folks worldwide.

Best read out loud - try too appreciate how much context and rule-of-rhyme you
have to apply to read it correctly.

[1] [http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html](http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html)

------
acconrad
I'm about to turn 33 and only within the last year have I really discovered
the joy of reading books. I went from reading maybe 1 or 2 books a year to
reading a book a _week_ , and I'm on track to read close to 50 books this year
(slowed down quite a bit by reading a textbook as part of auditing a class).

If only I had discovered this earlier in my life who knows where I'd be now,
but better late than never I suppose.

~~~
broken_symlink
I've been wanting to get in to reading, but my biggest issue is finding
something to read that interests me. How did you start finding things?

~~~
eatonphil
Easiest for me to get started (since it was topical and I could convince
myself there was value) was to pick the most interesting books from the "most
mentioned on HN" lists out there [0].

[0] [https://hackernewsbooks.com/top-books-on-hacker-
news](https://hackernewsbooks.com/top-books-on-hacker-news)

~~~
bgeeek
Thanks. Didn't know about that. Bookmarking that pronto!

------
otakucode
Learning IS brain transformation. Essentially by definition. Also, lack of
exposure to novel intense experience actively prevents brain development
because it prevents learning. This will be a growing problem as adolescents in
particular lead lives which are designed to eliminate all novel stimulus and
thwart every natural inclination to seek novelty. It's certainly encouraging
news to see that the dropoff in neuroplasticity that comes later might be
caused by the dead boring lives of industrialized adults rather than any
insurmountable biological hurdle. At least, that's what I get out of this.

~~~
crispyporkbites
but how do you know that the crazy distractions of the modern world aren't
growing adolescent brains in ways yours will never grow?

Throughout history adults have always looked down on children, yet the
upcoming generation always ends up surpassing their parents achievements.

This reminds me of something Socrates said, over 2 millenia ago:

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority;
they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.
Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before
company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize
their teachers.”

~~~
titzer
> Throughout history adults have always looked down on children, yet the
> upcoming generation always ends up surpassing their parents achievements.

So far. There is some evidence that IQ has actually peaked.

Some studies suggest a highly distracted, unfocused mind is actually
measurably worse at important tasks:

[http://www.talentsmart.com/articles/Multitasking-Damages-
You...](http://www.talentsmart.com/articles/Multitasking-Damages-Your-Brain-
and-Your-Career,-New-Studies-Suggest-2102500909-p-1.html)

~~~
tptacek
Problem: it hasn't done so in the US, which is the epicenter for the
distracted, unfocused lifestyle.

------
kochikame
I wonder if a similar change would occur in the brains of native English
speakers who learn Chinese or Japanese as adults? After all, it's a whole new
way set of very different characters to learn and decode.

It may be that once the big shift has occurred when you learned to read your
native language, it will never happen again, as you now have the "firmware" to
read anything.

~~~
gleenn
Learning Japanese at the age of 30 definitely bent my brain in new and
interesting ways. Certainly when communicating, it made me realize how much of
speaking is actually stringing together groups of words to convey meaning and
way less about using some perfect syntax or grammar. The whole backwards
grammar relative to English also was pretty new and challenging.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
As a native English speaker currently learning Japanese I love just how
_logical_ it all is. I'm not sure if it's because I'm from a software
development background but I'm finding it so easy to learn.

As you suggested in your comment, it's a whole different way of thinking.

------
moh_maya
I wonder what the effects will be of learning to read a "new" language, in
addition to ones that we already know. Would that result in detectable
changes?

Would the type of "new" language matter? Say, Someone who knows English,
learning to read French, v/s the same person learning to read Mandarin, which
has a very different structure?

------
NamTaf
I enjoy reading, but I've always struggled with it, particularly with larger,
slower-paced, and more complex books (though it's never stopped me). I suspect
I have pretty strong aphantasia [1] and so I never build mental images of the
characters or their scenes, rather I only remember abstract descriptors about
everything. I find that this makes it hard for me to follow storylines and in
particular multiple story arcs in multiple different locations or timeframes.
I think that this does impact the level of joy I get from reading, and envy
those who get a rich tapestry of mental images from the stories.

I found, for example, Matthew Reilly's _Ice Station_ a relatively easy story
when I read it as a teen because the pace was high and the action was
contained to a relatively simple scene. On the other hand, I'm reading Neal
Stephenson's _Quicksilver_ right now and I'm really struggling to follow the
story arcs because it jumps all over the place with its characters, scenes and
timeframes. The fact I'm already familiar with most of the characters' names
helps some of it stick, but I'm resigned to most of the secondary Royal
Society characters being a generic conglomeration of traits and just treat
them as a supporting cast without defined personalities in a lot of ways.

I find that I also very quickly forget the contents of novels I read. I read
_Snow Crash_ about 5-8 years ago and then again earlier this year, and I
barely remembered any of it. Certainly I think more stuck the second time, but
it was still mostly new to me (e.g. the character concepts and biggest plot
points kind of stuck, but nothing more).

I sort of hope that reading can help me improve with my memory, but it hasn't
in about 25 years of reading (I'm in my early 30s) so I don't hold
particularly high hopes. I do wonder whether the aphantasia would've been even
worse had I not read so much when growing up, but maybe if it hasn't
noticeably improved in my life then equivalently it would never have been any
worse had I not read. I wonder if my brain in some ways reflects an illiterate
person in the visual cortex areas?

On the other hand, reading is undoubtedly the reason my vocabulary and
spelling is as good as it is. Certainly, it's is a very valuable skill and I
am glad that I continued to engage it since I learned to read as a child.

[1]: [https://www.facebook.com/notes/blake-ross/aphantasia-how-
it-...](https://www.facebook.com/notes/blake-ross/aphantasia-how-it-feels-to-
be-blind-in-your-mind/10156834777480504/)

~~~
fouc
That's interesting about aphantasia. I knew some people have incredible
visualization ability far past the normal amount, but I never knew that some
people have none at all.

I think my visualization ability is about average, although I do very well
with visual thinking. Not sure what the correlation is there.

I've been a prolific reader since about 11 years old. I would say that in
general, I don't try to visualize what the author writes. Whenever the author
spends a lot of time going into setting up the environment with lots of visual
details, I only lightly skim that. I don't bother trying to visualize exactly
what the author is trying to convey.

So sometimes it does lead to a little bit of confusion later on in the story
if something I read doesn't match up with my made up visualization, but
generally I might only get a blip of confusion a few times during a book, it
doesn't really amount to much or affect my enjoyment.

I'm not sure how much time Neal Stephenson spends on visual details in Snow
Crash, but I remember the first 200 pages of Anathem being a chore to get
through because of the incredible amount of time he spent on setting up the
environment. Because I largely skipped the visual details in Anathem, there
were parts later on in the story that were confusing due to the fact I didn't
have a grasp on the layout of the monastery and such. Assuming he didn't make
mistakes at any point.

~~~
NamTaf
I catch myself skimming over details like that too, because they are
essentially meaningless to me. That said, I've never had the situtaion of a
mental image being wrong, because I never end up actually drawing one. I just
end up getting lost, like I'm constantly encountering new scenes that haven't
been described to me. It's disorienting but now I've come to adapt to it, I
know that I'll not necessarily follow details I would otherwise expect myself
to follow, not because it's badly written (as I used to sometimes wonder) but
that it just doesn't gel in my mind. So I've come to adapt to that, in a ways.

------
pontifier
It never really occurred to me how utterly foreign reading was. I guess it
makes sense because, like the article mentions, it's such a recent innovation
that a dedicated region hasn't yet evolved in us. I never thought about the
actual deep changes in the brain that must happen when learning.

When I read a book, I'm often totally transported into that world. I wonder if
areas of my brain invoved with vivid dreaming are being activated when I am in
this state.

~~~
mackrevinack
two of the main things people use to enter a lucid dreaming state (becoming
aware that you're dreaming while you are asleep) are switching a light bulb on
and off and the other is to read some text. both are fairly new things to our
brains.

the light bulb one is easy enough. you just have to flick a switch every time
you walk past one (this is during the day while you're awake) and then
eventually you will remember to do it in your dream. when the light doesn't
switch off in your dream, thats when your conscious mind will hopefully notice
and you can start to take control over the dream

its a bit harder to do the same with words. when you find some in your dream,
you have to focus on a few of them and try to memorise them, (which isn't easy
when your mind is in that state) then look away for a few seconds and then
look back and see if they are still the same.

ive only ever managed to test that out once myself but after a while the words
started to change and others disappeared which made me snap out of it and
realise i was in a dream.

tl;dr wordz is new init?

~~~
arandr0x
This is interesting to me, because I'm an avid reader in real life and usually
lucid dream (though I don't train myself to). Most dreams to a degree feel
like fiction to me and they're enjoyable in the same way reading a good book
is, except better, since they're about me. I have never linked this to my
reading before.

------
docbrown
>”These deep structures in the thalamus and brainstem help our visual cortex
to filter important information from the flood of visual input even before we
consciously perceive it.” Interestingly, it seems that the more the signal
timings between the two brain regions are aligned, the better the reading
capabilities. “We, therefore, believe that these brain systems increasingly
fine-tune their communication as learners become more and more proficient in
reading,” the neuroscientist explains further. “This could explain why
experienced readers navigate more efficiently through a text.”

I read the headline and instantly wondered if the same result occurs as we age
and continue to fine tune our reading skills. The above passage seems to
confirm the age old saying of reading keeping the mind active. One thing I am
wondering though is if there is a certain types of literature that the brains
reacts in a more positive or less than observation way. For example, does our
brain engage more when we’re reading a technical literature review moreso than
if it was a novel? Or vice versa. Is this why professionals—lawyers are the
main ones i can think of—who comb through hundreds of dense reading weekly get
viewed as achieving such a masters ability in reading?

~~~
tarunkotia
As long as you make new neural connections your brain is going to grow[0]. An
anecdotal fact which I heard many years ago was that adding a new perspective
to look at something is like increasing your IQ by 10-20 points. Simply
reading a lot of text within your comfort zone is not going to increase your
mental capacity.

[0][https://www.ted.com/talks/sebastian_seung](https://www.ted.com/talks/sebastian_seung)

~~~
bitwize
1) Neurogenesis halts in your early 20s. After that, no new neurons for you,
sorry. Although the connections may change.

2) "Point of view is worth 80 IQ points" is actually one of Alan Kay's famous
quips.

~~~
bad-joke
> 1) Neurogenesis halts in your early 20s. After that, no new neurons for you,
> sorry. Although the connections may change.

This statement as written is almost total nonsense. A cursory internet search
yields abundant studies on adult neurogenesis. Even small amounts of
cardiovascular exercise increase brain volume, stimulate neural growth, and
create synaptic connections in adults well into old age.

At best, one could claim that neuron growth _slows_ as we age, but it
absolutely doesn't _halt_.

~~~
bitwize
And yet when Arturo Alvarez-Buylla and his team of researchers actually
searched for physical evidence of young neurons in adult brains, they found...
nothing:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25975](https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25975)

The studies which came before may be based on nonprimate animal models in
which adult neurogenesis does occur. But the best evidence we have to date
suggests that adult humans do not grow new neurons.

~~~
p1esk
That article you linked to is about neurogenesis in hippocampus only.

------
DoctorOetker
Is there a difference between vertically and horizontally written languages,
given that the left field of view of each eye are processed in the same half
of the brain, and the right half of FOV processed in the other half of the
brain?

For horizontal languages like say english, the most relevant words are to the
left and right of the current word, so left context and right context are
initially in different halves of the brain.

For vertical languages relevant symbols are above and below the currently
observed symbol, so if there is overlap of right and left FOV then both halves
have the full context, if no overlap then both halves get the full context but
only partially each symbol...

~~~
d4mi3n
Does this matter in practice? We have binocular vision--when I read, I focus
on a word with both eyes. The occasions where I'm reading with just one eye or
another are fairly rare.

~~~
Baeocystin
The field of vision split is right down the middle of each eye. One side of
the brain gets the two left-halves, the other the right. FWIW. Oliver Sacks'
The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat has a chapter on hemispatial neglect
which is an interesting read.

(The entire book is fascinating.)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Mistook_His_Wife_f...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Mistook_His_Wife_for_a_Hat)

~~~
kazinator
Try as I might, I can't find details about the field of vision split. Like how
perfectly vertical and straight is the division? What is the microscopic
structure like: how crisp is the line at the cellular level? Is there some
messiness at the boundary with regard to which hemisphere the cones and rods
are routed to? Does the division run precisely through the middle of the
fovea?

~~~
Baeocystin
This paper should help. :)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10944/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10944/)

Empirically, when running tests where you wanted a clear hemisphere
separation, we always used between one and two degrees off the centerline
axis. This was undergrad cog sci in the 90's, so take it for what you will.

~~~
kazinator
Thanks. I see from the side bar have been hitting this site. Let's see,
recently viewed items:

"Poppy seeds: differences in morphine and codeine content and variation ..."

"Spectrum of human tails: A report of six cases ..."

"Spontaneous knotting of an agitated string ..."

:)

------
TomMckenny
>reading is such a new ability in human evolutionary history

As I understand it, only about 2% of our species' history.

But I would give anything to know if there are undiscovered enormous
innovations on that level and if so, what they are.

~~~
jniedrauer
As of 2017, we're generating more data each year than we previously generated
in the entirety of human history. Although comparing refrigerator's IP
addresses to the Iliad may not be a fair comparison.

------
black-tea
It makes sense. Unlike speaking, reading is something we don't just learn
naturally, yet it completely changes the way you see the world. When you see
some written language you can't _not_ read it.

I do wonder, though. Do humans with no written language still understand that
writing contains information, or does it just look like noise to them?

------
intrasight
I'm curious how much of the benefits accrue if you use audio books - which is
how I do much of my "reading".

~~~
radus
Do you primarily listen to audiobooks while you're doing something else?

~~~
intrasight
Audiobooks are the easiest "multitasking" I think. A great example is while
driving. This weekend I listened to 2312 by Kim Stanley Robinson while
driving. I also listen while gardening or cleaning. Really only works for
tasks with really low cognitive load.

------
yantrams
Seeing how this research is done with syllabic scripts, it might be worthwhile
to have the same repeated with alphabetic and hieroglyphic scripts and see if
any interesting results can be gleaned, like something equivalent to Sapir-
Whorf hypothesis.

Edit: Grammar

~~~
qwerty456127
I've once started learning Tibetan and felt like on some powerful nootropics
during the days. Perhaps that's the effect and it can possibly happen to
literate people if they learn a language that is very different to their
mother tongue and uses a really different script.

~~~
yantrams
That's an interesting sample point. Lets hope research can shed more light on
this.

------
kazinator
> _“While it is quite difficult for us to learn a new language, it appears to
> be much easier for us to learn to read._

Sometimes the writing system of your own language can be formidably difficult,
on par with learning a foreign language, if not harder.

~~~
nneonneo
Can confirm - after many years of study I’m finally at the point where my
spoken Mandarin is passable, but _dear lord_ the written language is tough...

------
ulisesrmzroche
I wonder what (if any) effect do graphic novels or hieroglyphics have in the
brain. Do they change the brain structure fundamentally like this too?

------
qwerty456127
I wish I could actually learn to read... I mean faster than average (I read
more slow than average actually) while still getting everything.

~~~
gnulinux
I read very slow too. Nothing really helped so I decided to just ignore it. It
doesn't really affect my life except I can't read subtitles (they change much
faster than I can read). I can read books just fine, except a few times slower
than normal people. This also didn't affect my academic performance. It's an
unfortunate situation nevertheless.

------
downrightmike
I've noticed that since I've started reading books for fun, that understanding
technical information is easier.

------
graphememes
What if I only read buzzfeed. Is there a scientific study for that?

~~~
onemoresoop
That's a different type of reading, you don't immerse sufficiently enough into
lecture to get anything other than information from it. Deep reading requires
you to spend time with one long read at a time.

------
Beefin
When does everyone prefer to read ?

~~~
dorchadas
All the time, to be honest. I find myself reading way too much at work,
instead of doing other things (grading papers, proctoring a test efficiently,
etc.) I read at home, at the gym (and sometimes skimp on running to do
inclined treadmill or bike just so I _can_ read) and even when I'm in a car
with others driving. Hell, I read during a board game meetup the other day (it
was at a bookstore!) because I was close to finishing one (yes, I do realize
how rude it was, and didn't read except while waiting to start up a new game).

I read at night mostly though, and it's a nice way to wind down before bed.
During the summer, while I'm off, I'll also walk and read as well. I generally
don't tend to pass of social events to read, though (boardgame night was an
exception because I had, like, 20 pages left), so that cuts me down some.

