
Ask YC: Cars? - icey
I know that most of the "Asks" that we get here are business and tech related; but I get the feeling that hackers tend to be car people as well (I know I am).<p>Anyways, I'm in the market for a new car. I had an embarrassing situation recently where I picked someone up from the airport in my 2-seater and couldn't fit their luggage in my (tiny) trunk.<p>So, I thought I'd solicit the hacker opinion - What do you guys drive? Do you like it? Is it fun?<p>I'd like to keep it under 50k, used is fine too, if it's something you'd recommend. If you know something that's definitely worth it, but more than 50k; I guess I'd like to hear about that too - I just have a hard time buying a car that costs more than the house I grew up in.<p>I live in a car town, so bicycles aren't an option!
======
mechanical_fish
If you have to ask YC for an idea of what car you want to buy, don't spend
$50k for a car. Buy a decent used car for $6 to $10k, or a new car for $15 to
$20k (I bought a Honda Fit; it's nice), bank the rest of the money, and wait.

I won't say you shouldn't blow $50k on a car -- I have friends who drive
autocross and are really into cars -- but if you don't already have a short
list of performance cars that you lust for you should just drive a compact
Honda or Toyota for a while and be done with it.

What's wrong with the two-seater, again? Can't you just rent or borrow a car
when you have to pick people up at the airport? You can rent a lot of cars for
$50k. ;)

~~~
icey
This may end up being the answer, to be honest. I am very into cars; but my
tastes lean strongly towards the impractical (hence the two-seater).

~~~
mechanical_fish
Impractical, eh? My racing friend has a trailer that he tows behind his Honda
S2000. Get one of those and your luggage problems will be over, in a
gloriously impractical fashion.

Incidentally, the Miata and the S2000 seem to be pretty fun cars, although I'm
too tall for one and too cheap for the other. When I lived in CA I owned a
1986 Toyota MR2; that was lots of fun too, and with a gloriously quirky
mid-80s dated look. Bought it for like $6k, and it ran flawlessly, perhaps
because it was a Toyota, but more likely because it had been cared for by an
obsessive car person for a decade and a half. I salute that guy.

Gratify your tastes! To hell with mere practicality! Give a cabbie $100 and
have _him_ to go pick up your friend at the airport! ;)

------
uuilly
I drive a toyota tacoma. The Taliban and African warlords use them as
lightweight tanks. They literally never die. My lifestyle takes me off road
and in deep snow frequently and I would never get anything else. I've just
kicked it's ass for 100k miles and I've done nothing but scheduled
maintenance. If you need more than a car get a tacoma. If you don't, they are
a complete pain in the city and you'll drive yourself nuts.

Whatever you do you should buy Japanese. I beat up a subaru wagon for 150k
near flawless miles before selling it for a good price. They are great. My
friends have also had great luck w/ honda's.

~~~
vaksel
yeah Top Gear did an episode on the Tacoma...they dropped one from a 10 story
building, drowned it in an Ocean, lit it on fire and they were able to start
it afterwards w/o any new parts.

Here is the episode <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uc4Ksz3nHM> \+ drop
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfZDtC9kjVk>

------
DenisM
You should decide on criteria - what is important to you?

When I have realized that over 40,000 people die every year in car accidents
in US I have decided to reduce my chances and focus on safety first. This
means a lot of air-bags, all-wheel-drive, stabiltiy, traction and abs. Also a
powerful engine and agile steering so that I can steer out of trouble and
ramp-up quickly when I need to. This has reduced my choice considerably.

Next criteria was larger trunk space, so I figured it will have to be a
crossover or a station wagon.

Further, I wanted good reliability (better than what I had from my previous
Olds) - my time is too valuable to mess with repairs.

Lastly, I wanted it to look good within my budget (<$40k).

This actually narrowed my choice to two vehicles: Subaru Legacy Turbo and
Acura RDX. My girlfriend then broke the tie in favor of the better-looking
vehicle (the RDX). So far I am very pleased with all core criteria. The only
thing that gives me grief is trunk space - I want it to be bigger still. One
(very rare) feauture that I still want is remote start so that I can into a
warm car.

If I were to raise my budget by $10k it will begin to include Acura MDX,
Infinity FX35 and maybe a couple of others. Another $10k and I would start
looking at Porsche Cayenne.

~~~
laut
If you are worried about getting in to car accidents, don't get a heavy truck
or car with a high point of gravity.

If you drive somewhere where there's snow or ice, proper winter tires will
give you more safety than all wheel drive.

Electronics can only mitigate the bad characteristics of an SUV, electronics
can not break the laws of physics. A lighter car can brake more quickly. A
proper car can turn faster without loosing traction or turning over.
Accelerate faster, drive faster in general, drive further and use less gas
than an SUV.

Of the vehicles mentioned, the Subaru sounds like the safest car. A Volvo V70
is an another wagon that's safe. If you are not going off road, why not get a
station wagon instead of an SUV?

Another good safety feature is driver education. Knowing how to handle the car
at the limits.

~~~
DenisM
Rather than theorize about "trucks" or "high center of gravity" you should
look at actual vehicles and their test results.

RDX, MDX and Legacy have the same safety ratings. Stopping distance difference
is within 6%. Acuras are a lot closer to a performance sedan than to an F150
in terms of handling.

~~~
Zak
Smaller size alone makes avoiding an accident easier. There are simply more
spaces lacking things to hit in to which the car will fit.

If you're a good driver, balanced handling beats electronic stability control.
If you're average, by all means, get the computer safety-net to take over.

~~~
DenisM
For one ting RDX is actually shorter than Legacy.

For another your claim about smaller size being safer is just a guess, which I
can counter with another guess "larger size makes your easier to see and so
less likey to get hit".

~~~
Zak
I was speaking generally - on paper, the RDX compares well to the Legacy in
terms of handling, size, braking and acceleration. I haven't driven one, so I
can't comment on its driving dynamics, though I suspect the Legacy would be
easier to control under extreme conditions, as reviews I've read claim it's
more neutral.

As for size, I'll stand by my claim. If it's a guess, it's an educated one. To
provide an extreme example, imagine several scenarios where you've had to
swerve to avoid a road hazard in your car. Now imagine that your car was the
size of a bus, but with the same handling. Could you still have avoided the
hazard?

~~~
DenisM
You're tunneling on one particular example of a potential accident. Instead,
you should look at overall probability of getting in trouble across all
possible scenarious, not just one particular case. Smaller vehicle might be
twice as likely to avoid a hazard, but it may have 4 times the chance of being
overrun by a truck, so it may still come out as a net loser in the end.

Imagine all the cases when you did not get into an accident because other
drivers knew to stay away from you.

------
RobGR
Fifty thousand dollars is an extravagant amount to spend on basic
transportation. You could later end up wishing you had that cash in hand.

You can get a decent, reliable, functional used Corolla or similar for $5,000
to $8,000. If you are confident enough in your mechanical skills at assessing
the cheaper cars, you can go less than $3,000. If you are in the middle of
starting up a business and don't have the time and need the reliability and
trunk space, just buy a used Corolla or Chevy Prizm ( the Prizm is a Corolla
with the price reduced due to the GM hood emblem ) and spend the rest of your
money on things that matter.

I currently drive a 1988 VW Jetta with more than 200,000 miles, and my other
cars have included a Volvo that I finally killed with 333,000 on the odometer.
I have enough mechanical knowledge to fix minor things, and I drive slowly
gingerly, so I am pretty good at beating the last 100,000 miles out of a car
that the previous owner was about to take to the junkyard.

Don't be like me, it probably isn't worth it in the long run. Buy a reliable
car less than 7 years old with less than 100,000 miles on it if possible, and
spend around $5,000. Don't spend anywhere close to $50,000 on a motor vehicle
for basic transportation -- the only things that would justify that would be
sports cars, RVs, and possibly specialized work vehicles.

------
kcy
I have the Mazdaspeed 3. It's basically a souped up version of the Mazda 3.
It's less expensive than many of the other cars mentioned (which I also looked
at) but is far and away the most fun car I've ever driven. Can do a sub 6 sec
0-60, is a hatchback so doesn't catch the eye of the police (side benefit is
that it will fit your friends' bags), and gas milage is good.

Never thought I'd drive a hatch, but this thing is a _beast_ without looking
super pretentious.

~~~
icey
Hmmm, this is an interesting one that I really hadn't thought about. My wife,
brother, sister, and my carpool partner all drive Mazda 3s and _LOVE_ them.

I may be checking this one out. Thanks!

~~~
kcy
Glad you'll be checking out the Mazdas! I would just mention to make sure to
check out the Mazda _speed_ line. Despite the similar sounding names, the
Mazdaspeed 3 is far superior to the Mazda 3.

~~~
icey
I don't know if anyone reads the follow-ups to these, but I went out and test
drove a MS3 yesterday, and I ended up buying one this morning!

Thanks again for the tip to check it out, I hadn't really thought about it;
and it was the perfect solution to my problem - Still fast enough to be fun,
but I can also put things in it if I need to pick someone up from the airport
or go buy a chair or something.

I'll be out driving!

~~~
kcy
Ha! That's great! So glad to hear you found the right car for the job. Go
Hacker News!

------
alaskamiller
Buy an used 2008 -- I'm seeing loads of people dumping their new cars -- Honda
or Toyota econobox and use the rest of that money for something else more
important.

~~~
noodle
buying used is usually a very good option. the car will lose the most value in
its first year. buying used tends to mean someone else is taking that hit for
you.

~~~
nostrademons
Have to be careful you're not getting a lemon though. If you don't know the
seller personally, take it to a mechanic you trust and have them fully inspect
the car. Probably a good idea even if you do know the seller.

That's the reason I'm about to get a new car - I'm moving across the country,
I don't know any of the possible sellers _or_ any of the area mechanics or
dealerships, and I really don't want to deal with all the car maintenance
stuff on top of all the other stuff that comes with living in a new area.
Otherwise I'd buy used. And I run cars into the ground - I expect to get 10-15
years usage out of this one.

~~~
etal
There are dealer-certified used cars, too, available from new-car dealerships.
The best are the demo cars that they drive up to around 5,000, then sell. It's
much cheaper than new, and you still can be confident it's not a lemon
(possibly more so than with a new car).

------
ggruschow
_What do you drive?_ Honda Fit. _Do you like it?_ We don't think about it, so
that's great. _Is it fun?_ It's a car.

Had a super nice, super expensive, super luxury sedan before it.. I didn't
like the attention and hassle.

Space-wise, heck, I like to touch my wife. Seriously, it's got plenty of space
for me (6'4") and my family (4). I moved a large-ish desk in it last week, and
airport runs go smoothly. It'd only be small if we got fat.

------
jam
Pretty big gearhead here. My most important requirements:

price < $20,000, weight < 3500 lbs, go > 200 hp / torque, rear or four wheel
drive, fully independent suspension, limited slip differential, manual
transmission available, four seats

The reasonable contenders:

2000-2004 Audi S4 (even though it's too heavy)

96-99 BMW M3

1999-2004 BMW 3-series (non M)

2002-2005 Lexus IS300

2005-2006 Saab 9-2X (WRX in disguise)

2002-2005 Subaru Impreza WRX

2004 Volkswagen Golf R32

2005-2006 Volvo S40 T5-AWD

Out of all of those, the old M3 is my personal favorite... followed closely by
the IS300. For the price range, I can't recommend anything not on this list.
My personal experience is relatively frequent hobbyist track racing &
autocross, lots of test driving, and loads of greasemonkeying.

~~~
wehriam
Worth noting that late model M3s hold their value particularly well.

~~~
tptacek
A 99 'M3 (I own 1 now, and have owned 3) is not a late-model M3, and it hasn't
held its value well.

------
gcheong
Try a luggage rack.

~~~
bjclark
This reminds me of the whole, "NASA spent $100k developing a pen for space and
the Russians used pencils" story.

~~~
tptacek
Which story, in addition to being apocryphal, was also debunked.

~~~
PStamatiou
<http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/s/spacepen.htm>

------
tdavis
A car is a simple utility. Find something cheap and reliable that you wouldn't
feel bad about smashing up. I have a '99 Accord with nearly 100k miles on it
that has never had an issue, despite being banged up pretty good.

------
mattmaroon
I'm not a car person, but I'm a luxury person, and I have an Rx350. I've had
it for 2 years, moved cross country twice in it, and I still love it more
every time I drive. The attention to every little detail is astounding. What
makes you love it are the little things you wouldn't even think matter that
much like the backup camera (I laughed at this and let me tell you, I couldn't
live without it now), rain sensing wipers, automatic lights that turn on and
off themselves and turn with you as you steer, ample cupholders including one
by a vent so you can keep your drink warm in the winter, ability to save seat
positions and revert to them with one button push, homelink garage door built
in, variable temperature seat warmer, phenomenal traction control (I drove 9
hours home in a blizzard once, laughing at all of the cheaper cars swerving
uncontrollably off the road), the suspension that makes railroad tracks nearly
unnoticeable, seats so comfortable I'm trying to figure out how to get one for
my office. I could go on and on.

And their GPS is unbeatable. Now when I rent a car, I get those Garmins and
just end up pissed at how unusable they are. I test drove an Accura and the
GPS crashed on me.

Despite being an SUV, it's fast enough that anything faster would just get me
into trouble. I laugh at douchebags who have racing spoilers on their Civic,
since me in my soccer mom car could smoke them off the line.

And you'll be able to fit luggage for 4 with ease. Buy that car, you won't
regret it. The total cost of ownership is surprisingly low for the sticker
price given Lexus's value retention and craftsmanship. I'm pretty sure mine
was just under $50k fully loaded.

------
modoc
You need to provide some context about what you like/want/need in a car.

Do you want horsepower, handling, interior luxury, technological doodads, room
for a family, three dogs, do you drive in the snow, do you race, is gas milage
a big deal, what kind of styling are you into, do you like doing your own
maintenance, do you want to mod it, how reliable does it need to be, etc...

I moved from a modified '99 Mitsubishi Eclipse to a '00 Audi S4 (which I
LOVE). My criteria were:

I didn't want to spend of $20k, I wanted something over 300hp (used a chip to
achieve this), I wanted it to handle/perform very well but to be more
comfy/quiet/solid than the Eclipse, I didn't care about gas milage, I wanted
something that had understated looks and didn't draw cop-eyes or look like a
penis-surrogate, I wanted something with a strong modification community and
vendors, I wanted something with bigger back seats than the Eclipse, I need
all-wheel drive for snow, I wanted something I could track a few times a year.

The S4 is perfect for me (my next move will be to a 2009-2010 S4, S6 or RS4).

------
tjr
I never had much interest in cars. I want something safe and practical that
will get me around. I'm about 6'3", and quite literally have a difficult time
fitting comfortably into many modern sedan-like cars. (They seem to be getting
smaller.) I occasionally need to transport some large-ish audio equipment
around, so space is a plus.

To wit, I ended up with a Honda CR-V. It's roomy enough that I don't feel
cramped, can hold most everything I need to carry on a semi-regular basis
without being huge, and the top-of-the-line model costs around $25k (or, it
did, when I got mine). Seems to have excellent safety ratings.

I've been very happy with it, but I'm sure car fans might fine my choice on
the boring side...

------
anthonyrubin
Audi A4 with Quattro.

~~~
webwright
Really? Everything I read about Audis when I was researching cars told me
that:

A) they weren't very reliable. Not a huge deal with a good warranty, but an
unreliable car is inconvenient as hell.

B) they have a high cost of repairs.

I think Audio and VW are good examples of marketing driven car brands.

If you want a reliably luxury car, a Lexus seems to be at the top.

Of course, the idea of buying a $50k car seems just plain ridiculous in this
(or any) economy.

~~~
tptacek
My dad drives a 4 year old Audi A6 and my friend drives an 8 year old A4; the
A6 has had more maintenance issues than my (finicky) M3, but the A4 probably
gets less than $200 of love a year and still runs fine.

If you drop $50k on a car, you don't get to complain how hard your startup is
to fund. On the other hand, everything I hear says that now is a good time to
buy silly cars, given the market.

------
tptacek
My experience with very nice cars is, it's fun to have a really nice car for
the first 6-9 months. After that, you're still paying attention to cars ---
you just dropped a shitload of money on one --- but you no longer have the
best car for the money, because cars keep getting better. The year after I
bought my car, they ported the euro manifold to the US model and boosted it by
like 100hp. I never felt that kind of irritated when I was driving a Nissan
Sentra.

There are probably better things in life to get hung up on than how awesome
your car is going to be for a few months. Like, your retirement.

------
ctingom
I've got a Honda Accord, and really love it.

~~~
tlrobinson
Honda Civic here. Works for me.

Though one day I'd like something with a little more power ;)

~~~
nostrademons
The newer-model Civics (post-2003) seem really underpowered to me. I had first
a 92 and then a 99, and they would literally _jump_ out of an intersection,
tires squealing. They had way too much power for the weight. The 03 Civic my
parents just bought and the 04 my sister has seem downright sluggish on the
highway. I dunno if it's because the car got a lot heavier, or if it's because
of the automatic transmission (the older ones were stick-shifts, newer ones
are not).

~~~
icey
My all-time favorite car was a 95 Civic Sedan. It was an awesome car; and
never had a single problem for the 75,000 miles I drove it (I bought it used
and it came with 30,000 miles). I liked it so much I kept it and still drove
it while I had my BMW. I might actually still be driving that car today except
for the fact that I turned it upside-down :(.

When I broke my old Civic (in 01), I went to go get a new one but they didn't
feel the same at all.

------
vaksel
Well you have a number of choices...you really didn't tell us what you like.

I'm guessing Luxury/Performance, so I'd recommend the following: For a little
bit more than 50K you can get a bare bones M3 Sedan or a C63 AMG.

But if you want to save money, you can look at a 335i, and then after you buy
it, spend about 1K on ECU mods. Straight-line performance you'll be a little
bit quicker than an M3.

But you really need to tell us what you want you like, since pretty much the
only thing you said it that it needs to have 4 seats and be under 50K.

~~~
dionidium
Is this forum really so wealthy that a casual recommendation for a $50k car
seems normal to most of you? Or is this just posturing? Serious question.

~~~
modoc
There's probably enough people on the forum for whom that's a reasonable
number that it's worth asking about it here. And honestly, even if you can't
afford it, lots of people (techy guys in particular) tend to know a TON about
nice cars which are out of their current price ranges. I can tell you all
about the R8, and Bugattis, etc... but I sure can't afford one (and even if I
could I probably wouldn't spend that much money on a car).

I've never bought a new car and never spent over $20k. That said, I've had
some pretty serious success with my latest company, and my next car will
probably be in the 50-75k range.

~~~
tptacek
Your latest company appears to be one of the larger Java web consultancies in
the market; maybe the 50-75k would be better spent starting your own shop. The
50-75k car --- isn't that how they get ya? ;)

~~~
modoc
I think you must be confusing me with someone else or something. I do some
consulting through ClearLogic consulting which is a very small consulting
company, but I was actually referring to Spark::red, a company I founded with
a couple of other guys. It's a niche managed hosting provider and is
definitely my "own shop" :)

~~~
tptacek
Was looking at your profile box; you should update it. =)

------
davidw
I personally don't like cars very much and use them only for getting from
place to place. Bicycles are way better on so many levels: exercise, a sense
of freedom, a _beautifully_ efficient machine, something fun to do to get away
from the computer, a quick means of getting from place to place over limited
distances.

But I'm not a fanatic and cars are useful, so: whatever is functional and
won't break down. Toyotas are pretty good that way, or at least those I've
owned are.

~~~
icey
To be clear, I absolutely wish I could ride a bike everywhere; sitting around
in traffic just isn't fun and driving never feels as interactive as biking.
But the fact of the matter is that everything around here is measured in miles
away from where I'm at so bicycling isn't really an option for me
unfortunately.

~~~
davidw
Sure, that's understandable, but you could also make some adjustments:

* Live in a more bike friendly place. Admittedly, that might be a pretty major change though.

* Wherever you live, structure things so that at least one or two things can be done by bike. I.e. live near enough so that you can at least go to work or somewhere else 'important' by bike. Maybe not every day, maybe not in all seasons, but it's a start.

Speaking for myself though, I think cycling is the perfect hacker sport, and
wouldn't live anywhere where I couldn't ride my bike in terms of
transportation and for fun:-)

Incidentally, where do you live? You're one of the many who have zero
information in their profiles:-(

~~~
icey
Sorry, I'm in metro Phoenix, AZ.

I carpool to work right now, and we have a light rail system that starts
service tomorrow. I'm planning to start taking it to work to shave off 17
miles or so of my commute, but the nearest rail station is still 5 miles away.

I would say I drive by myself maybe 5% of the time I go anywhere; I almost
always group errands together to minimize commute; but with all of that I
still log over 200 miles a week.

Moving isn't an option for me right now, I'm in the middle of an enormous
project that I'm very interested in seeing to completion.

~~~
lsb
If you're on a road bike going 12 miles an hour, 5 miles is a fantastic
25-minute cardio workout.

------
NoBSWebDesign
Right now, a lot of car companies are getting reamed by the economy
(obviously), stemming a lot from doling out leases and then seeing the values
of the cars tanking with the economy, causing them to take large losses. As a
result, it is difficult at some companies to get approved with favorable
interest rates, whether you're buying or leasing, especially with the Big 3.

I'd start with seeing what kind of car you're compatible with by taking a look
at <http://www.carzen.com>.

I recently bought a Volkswagen Jetta Wolfsburg Edition (same 2.0 turbocharged
engine as the GTI and GLI but about $2500 less). Volkswagens retain their
resale value (right up there with Mini), so they didn't lose much and are
taking advantage of that by giving very favorable rates. Trust me, you can get
a more expensive VW for less than other cars, just from the dramatic
difference in interest rates. And their service is amazingly better than most
other dealerships as well. Two of my roommates have since also gotten VW's.

I'm definitely a car person and autocross regularly. I've taken my Jetta to a
track day at a race track we have nearby, and I'm completely satisfied with
this thing.

------
strlen
Given your price range and the fact you own a two seater, it seems you're
looking for something sporty. I'd suggest:

Infiniti G35 or G37. The former can easily be gotten completely loaded for
under $35k (and possibly out the door if you pay cash and go for an unsold
2008 model). The latter can be a little pricier, but not by much.

I've got a 2007 G35 Coupe. Fully-loaded (except for four wheel steering),
stickshift. Intense amount of fun to drive.

Prior to that I've had a 2006 G35 Sedan (was rear-ended on US-101 and the car
was totaled; which is why I couldn't wait for the G37 to come out, I needed
something I could drive _soon_ ).

Simply put, this is the most fun with four seats (and the lack of insurance
premium due to being a "sports car") you'll have for under $40,000. Rear-wheel
drive (AWD available on the sedan), real stickshift available (unlike on the
IS350), sporty suspension, limited slip differential (the BMW 335 - which is
$10,000 more expensive doesn't include that).

The _big_ downside is fuel mileage (if I stay in fifth and sixth as possible
as possible I can get a little over 26mpg, which is still dismal). This is
slightly better in the newer models, but still - if you're looking for a fuel
efficient car this isn't it. It also requires 91 octane (older models could
take 89 and below if with an automatic, but that's not recommended).

Other downside is small trunk space on the 2007 coupe (the sedan is much
better; not sure about the 2008 g37 coupe).

Also buy used, unless you're looking to build credit - which may not be the
best time for it. When I got my first G35 (the sedan), I a) could get a
certified deposit for a rate that is higher than what I am paying for the car
b) was less than a year out of college, with no credit history.

------
brk
I'm in a market for a new/additional car also, in a similar price range.

Right now I'm leaning towards a 2-3ish year old Jaguar XJR (going price: low-
mid 30's) and then putting about 8K into the drivetrain to just build the piss
out of it.

I love the look of the XJR's inside and out, and I've always loved something
about the thought of building a luxury "sleeper" sedan.

------
wehriam
I'm a fan of the small sedans - the Lexus IS, Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, Mercedes
C Class and Infiniti G37. They range from $32,000-$65,000, depending on the
various options.

They're all great cars, and with the exception of the Lexus, they've all been
redesigned within the last two years. The BMW leads the pack in performance,
the Infiniti in bang for your buck, the Lexus for comfort and reliability, the
Audi for features, and the Mercedes for (interior) technology and design.
Naturally, opinions may vary on these issues.

They're all reasonably fuel efficient, reliable, safe, and fast. Test drive
them all. It's fun.

Spec out the car you want, then call all the dealers within a few hundred
miles. Take the best quote to the salesman who you test drove with and give
them the option to match it.

Tada! Great new car.

Edit: Forgot the Cadillac CTS. I've heard good things, but I'd be a little
caution about buying from a company about to go bankrupt. Sorry American auto
industry.

------
cheez80
i have a 2000 infiniti Q45 anniversary edition - insurance group coilovers,
peak performance multilink, work euroline N in 19x9.5 ET8 19x10 ET-11. it's
almost 6" lower than stock, and i'm running -7* camber. most car guys think
i'm crazy for doing it, and i'm inclined to agree but it looks so cool! too
bad it's so impractical: i got stuck on the driveway at in-n-out a few days
ago, and i can't carry more than about 500lb in the car with me at any time
(that includes passengers), otherwise i'll rub. the entire trip. or worse, pop
the bead on the tires. oh well.

i'm thinking of selling it though and building a porsche 964, rauh-welt style:

[http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/...](http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/Mike%20Garrett/Car%20Features/Nakai/IMG_9303.jpg)

forgive me though, i just enjoy blathering on aimlessly about cars :)

------
PStamatiou
the new Infiniti G35 sedan hands down, great value. Or if you want the coupe,
I've driven a G37 coupe before and it is top notch as well.

I would recommend the BMW 335i but honestly it's too much for what you get,
although the turbo 3L engine is beautiful and won an award recently for best
engine of 2008 or some such.

~~~
jamiequint
the infiniti is definitely a fast car, and fun to drive, but the interior to
me feels so much cheaper than the comprable Lexus (IS series) or BMW. At least
the G35. I haven't been in the new G37.

~~~
pxlpshr
Hmmm, definitely agree about the interior feeling cheaper than a Lexus but I'm
not sure I agree about a BMW (3-series). Even the M3 feels wayyy too plastic
for my tastes.

------
ssharp
I think 50k for a car is a bit ridiculous unless you're pulling in $150k+. For
more modest salaries, a nice stylish car with some extras can be found with
the VW Jetta, Saab 93, and Volvo S4. I drive a 93 and love it. It has, in my
opinion, much better style than most American and Asian cars but is still
cheaper than a German car. During GM employee price, I think the 93 started
around 20k. I haven't looked at car prices during the auto market downfall, so
I'm not sure where there at now.

The problem with any European car is upkeep. I can do my own brakes and other
minor repairs, so I'm not so worried. If you don't have money to spare for
repairs later on down the road, buy a Toyota or Honda. Parts and labor on
European cars are a lot more than on more mass-produced cars.

------
walesmd
I drive a 2004 Nissan Maxima SE and love it - a very versatile vehicle. Plenty
of room in the trunk for luggage/groceries, great family car (I have a wife
and kid) but it will also get up and go when it needs to (it's classified as a
sports car by many insurance companies).

Remarkably, insurance isn't that bad - 25 y/o male and a 23 y/o female, full
coverage, about $70 per month.

Gas mileage is great, I get about 28 mpg and it only costs $40 or so to fill
the tank.

The only downfall I have is the tires - expensive to replace due to the sports
car quality of the vehicle. You can't go with the cheap tire - they aren't as
rigid. High torque on take-off and highway speeds will make cheaper tires
flare out giving you poor handling.

------
anamax
The poster's profile suggests that he lives in Phoeniz, AZ, so snow isn't an
issue unless he skiis. Heat, however, is.

For pure transportation, it's hard to beat the old model Scion xB. It's cheap,
reliable, good on gas (I average 35 highway and city unless I drive 80), and
has insane amounts of space. If you want more 50% power, get the newer model.
(It's geared higher so you don't lose a lot of gas mileage.)

Yes, the old xB is fun to drive.

You can get the newer one new for well under $20. The older one used should be
around $10k or maybe less.

So if you insist on spending $50k, you'll have $30-40k left to spend on a toy,
your biz, a down-payment, etc.

------
raheemm
I hear that the best fuel-efficient/hybrids will be released in late 09 and
early 10. And further there is a good chance that Obama will offer incentives
to buy a fuel efficient car. Waiting 6-9 months may be worthwhile.

If you can't wait, then I suggest a Prius (have not driven it myself - but its
hard to get away from the positive buzz about this car).

If you'd like to give Detroit a hand - check out the ConsumerReports list of
best American cars of 2008 -
[http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2008/03/american-
top-p...](http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2008/03/american-top-pi.html)

~~~
brk
_I hear that the best fuel-efficient/hybrids_

So will they finally become cost-effective? All the data I've seen, and run
personally, on the common hybrid make the TCO no cheaper than just buying an
average car of similar size.

The only incentive I can see for current-tech hybrids is the eco-angle.

~~~
sc
Well, the Prius is also just a nice car for gadget-lovers. Keyless entry,
start-button ignition, big LCD dashboard, Bluetooth, GPS...

------
Zak
A WRX wagon and a Miata. You can get one of each for right around $50k - less
if you buy used.

I have an old Miata. It sips gas, makes wonderful noises and is the second-
best handling car I've ever driven. The best was a Formula V (that's an open-
wheel race car made out of old VW parts - it's like a big go-kart with
suspension and a transmission).

My roommates have a WRX. It's quick, handles pretty well and has plenty of
room for luggage.

I also hear wonderful things about the Mazda RX-8. It's not so easy on gas,
but it's supposed to handle like an oversized Miata. It can hold four real
adults, and at least some of their stuff.

~~~
jam
The RX-8 handles beautifully and is a lot of fun on the track... but it's
woefully underpowered and very difficult to modify.

Very unfortunate, as it's such a great platform.

------
mikeyur
I'm a VW/Audi fan. So I'm going to recommend the GTI/Passat or an A3/A4.

For style/space I'd recommend the A3 (though the GTI isn't bad) or the Passat.
I got a chance to drive my uncle's new passat (with hacked/tuned computer -
squeezes like 65 more horses out of it) and thoroughly enjoyed it. Plenty of
room inside the car which is important for me, I'm 6'7 and had no
headroom/legroom problems. The GTI is pretty awesome as well.

All fall in your price range, pending options. But if you're going to be test
driving some, check out the A3, Passat and GTI.

------
sachinag
I highly - highly - recommend the Cadillac CTS. You'd probably pay a tad more
than $50K for the CTS-V, which does 0-60 in sub-5.0, but that's a great option
if you're a torque freak (like me).

Small enough to parallel park, and the thing has a fantastic note when you go
10-60 up an on-ramp to the interstate. Caddy's new "Cut and Sew" interiors
beat the pants off of the Japanese and are warmer than the interiors of the
Germans. And the pop-up navigation impresses everyone. It won 2008 MT COY not
for nothing.

------
HeyLaughingBoy
I really like cars but I'd find it hard to justify spending more than $35k on
a new one unless it was a Porsche Carrera 4 or something like that. My winter
ride is an Xterra which I love; the summer car is a 350Z which may have the
same luggage problem you ran into :-)

I have seriously considered selling the Z and buying a Maxima -- need more
room. I've owned three absolutely trouble free Nissans and I'd happily buy a
used one that had been well cared for.

~~~
icey
I'm currently driving a 350Z, so yes; same problem ;)

------
brianmckenzie
I drive an 08 Volkswagen GTI, and I've been thrilled with it. It's a nearly
perfect blend of performance, style, practicality, efficiency, etc. Has been a
Car & Driver 10Best for the past few years. They got all the little things
right on this car, and I've never had anything so fun on a daily basis. Also
very inexpensive compared to many cars people are mentioning here.

------
ganley
My '97 Chrysler Concorde just rolled over 100K a couple of days ago, and
despite its 3.8L V6 it's still getting 27mpg highway. I'll second what someone
said: It's just transportation. I get my fun outside of my car.

And give it a rest, cyclists. I am a HUGE leisure cyclist, but for many of us
(me and OP, for example), replacing our car with a bike is simply impossible.

------
rokhayakebe
Audi A6: Classy, roomy and high performance. It is more a car for your image.

Audi A4 Turbo: Sporty, fast and reliable. If it is more than 4 year old I
would recommend 5 spd. At least you won't have to deal with tranny issues.

Volvo S60: Sporty but not as reliable as the A4.

Mini Cooper.

If your paper is long enough and you want to impress look for an X5 or a Range
Rover (girls digg these) or an american muscle car.

------
kingnothing
I absolutely love my Audi A6. I've had it for just over two years and am as
happy with it now as they day I bought it. I highly recommend them. Get one
fully loaded that's a year old to keep it in your price range. The A8 is an
amazing car as well if you want to spend a bit more on it.

------
epi0Bauqu
Honda Element. Waterproof seats & bottom--hose it down if you want. Seats
completely fold up (like a van) or down (like a bed). Has a bunch of useful
add-ons like a tent, trailer hitch, etc. Good mileage (v4). Etc, etc...check
it out.

~~~
anamax
Be careful - if you hose out early model Elements, you'll short out the engine
computer (which isn't in a sealed container even though the floor looks
hoseable).

------
edawerd
Before leaving to go YC SFP 2008, I was working at Volkswagen, so I have a
slight bias towards VWs and Audis. They're fun cars. I _might_ be able to
still get some discounts, so PM me if you want, and I'll see if I can help you
out.

------
wheels
I was just wondering what the _Hacker Opinion_ on hair conditioners is? And
maybe shoe polish? A lot of hackers seem to wear shoes, so _Inquiring Minds
Want To Know_!

Uhm, can we please not have these threads here?

~~~
manvsmachine
Not equivalent. As a "car guy" myself, I would be _very_ surprised if there
wasn't a strong correlation between hackers and gearheads. These are people
who see a complex system, viewed simply as a utilitarian tool by most of
society, and take it upon themselves to learn how it works. Some do this to be
able to use it more efficiently, while others try to maximize or extend its
performance. Sound familiar?

Oh, and +1 for the MazdaSpeed3; it's a great little car.

~~~
quadhome
I ride bicycles.

It was interesting to me that I fell into a cycling social scene that was
primarily composed of tech types.

They share the same characteristics. A deceptively "simple" system with many
variables and infinite hackability.

~~~
krschultz
Lots of cycles at our startup as well

------
zacharydanger
I drive a Pontiac Vibe which is really just a rebadged Toyota Matrix. I get
~30 mpg and have actually hauled a futon in it while moving. Lots of cargo
space when the back seats are laid flat.

------
sown
You should get one of these <http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/car/8426/> when
you decide.

------
hs
why the impulse? do you often have to pick someone up?

after 3 years, the depreciation rate levels off for used cars so try 2005-
cars

i have renault clio but don't use it often (once every quarter) ... not
because i love the car, but because my basic transportation need is better
covered with motorcycle (it's super crowded here with cars)

admittedly, clio was chosen because of the F1 double crown of renault+alonzo
_shrug_ ... maybe that's a flawed logic

------
danw
No cars, public transport, unless local housing density can't sustain it (50
dwellings/hectare needed to support sufficient bus network)

------
jamiequint
lexus is250 awd

You can pick one up for around $36k before tax. I have a rack for it and it's
great in snow and for taking the mountain bike out. It has the best interior
of any car that costs anywhere close to it IMHO. Definitely recommend it if
you want something nice and are into outdoor stuff too.

~~~
jam
Save yourself $20k and get an IS300 (previous version) instead. It's a much
better car.

~~~
strlen
I pondered the IS350 (but went for a G35 instead, see comment). I tend to
agree: IS300 is a high-end sport compact sedan, IS350 is an entry-level luxury
car.

(Out of those two I'd go for the IS 300, but in general I'd go for the G35
again ;-)).

------
WALoeIII
Subaru STi (Hatch) or Mitsubishi Evo X (Sedan).

I went with the hatch for the extra space. Cheap (30k), Fun, and Fast.

------
satyajit
Most hackers tend to be male, but I am afraid you can't ask what razor to buy
on this forum!

~~~
parenthesis
Because hackers have beards, or because it's off-topic?

------
peter123
check <http://searchautoreviews.com/> before you plunk down that 50k. And
never buy the first generation of any model... at least wait for the 2nd one.

------
MikeCapone
I like the Honda Fit. Lots of really nice touches on that one.

------
noodle
i got an 07 nissan altima, and i like it. its just an all-around solid
vehicle, so far. good value for the money spent, on my part.

------
brl
I hear that Lambourghini's are pretty good but I'm 35 years old and I've never
had a drivers license so I might not be the best person to ask.

------
gstar
Lotus Elise or Mitsubishi Evo X?

~~~
wehriam
The Elise is great but it has practically no storage - probably not viable as
a day-to-day driver.

------
whather
2003 acura 3.2tl type-s w/ nav

------
TapInko1234
Hold out for the TOYOTA FTHS

------
TCL15
e46 m3

------
b0ib0t
I bought an 08 Nissan 350z Touring ed. and I LOVE IT! For winter and getting
groceries I drive an old beater, 1994 Toyota Tercel. If I didn't have the
Tercel, I'd probably rent a car or something if I needed to pick up friends,
or buy furnature.

As for snow driving I find the 3 most important elements are as follows.

-Driving ability -Balance/Center of gravity of the vehicle -Tires

I had a Nissan NX2000 that did wonderful in the snow. Thats 200hp in the snow.
I never got stuck or slid off the road. When I sold the NX, I took the wheels
(and tires) off of it, and put them onto the Toyota Tercel and the thing does
HORRIBLE in the snow. I believe this is because it is not as well balanced as
a Nissan NX (sports car).

------
lst
taxi.

Compare _all_ costs, and you'll land there...

