
Fargo, online outliner and more with Dropbox storage - AndreasFrom
http://fargo.io/
======
edavis
I've been using Fargo since it was launched and highly recommend it.

I use it every day for jotting down quick notes, keeping a work journal, as
well as planning out larger projects.

There's already an active community of programmers and writers using it to do
some pretty interesting things. And the guys behind it are constantly
listening to user feedback[1] to build functionality to match how people are
_actually_ using the product.

If you're hesitant about connecting to Dropbox, give
<http://littleoutliner.com/> a try. It uses the same outliner code as Fargo,
but uses your browser's localStorage for the storage mechanism. It's really
pretty cool.

If you do decide to give Fargo a try, make sure to open the Community Feed
(Docs > Community Feed). If you can't figure something out after going through
the very thorough documentation[2][3], feel free to shoot us a question.

[1]:
[http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomethi...](http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomething)

[2]: <http://smallpicture.com/outlinerHowto.html>

[3]: <http://smallpicture.com/fargoDocs.html>

~~~
davewiner
Thanks for the kind words Eric! :-)

------
stuartcw
Those who remember this family of Software might see some similarity ;-) :
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Userland_Software#Frontier> Just look at the
article for protocols that they introduced and popularised.

There's lots of other cool stuff under the hood that you probably won't notice
at first, like:

\- It's a not just an outliner but it's also a outlined chat/collaboration
tool. \- It's not just an outliner but it's also a Javascript programming
environment. i.e. you can execute functions that that you write in the
outlines. \- It's not just an outliner, it's a front end to your blogging
platform.

Also, don't worry about connecting it to Dropbox. It sandboxes all it's
activities under the Apps/Fargo folder so won't go crazy with your files.

Already there is a lot to try out and hopefully this will be the new frontier
that we have been waiting for.

~~~
davewiner
I really appreciate the enthusiasm, as co-founder of the company and one of
two developers of the product.

However, you can't at this time edit full JavaScript apps in Fargo, you can
run single lines of code using Cmd-/.

We do plan to make it a JS development tool, we use it that way ourselves, but
first we want to release the server-side component.

It is today a very good workgroup tool. Here's a doc that explains how to set
it up for a workgroup.

<http://smallpicture.com/fargoWorkgroup.html>

Dave

------
ericflo
I couldn't figure out how to delete an item. Also kept getting "you have 1
synced document" growl notifications on Mac. Other than those issues, this
looks to be really useful!

~~~
davewiner
Click on the wedge in front of the item to be sure you're in structure mode.
Then hit Backspace, or Cmd-X to cut.

This kind of stuff is explained in the Outliner Howto.

<http://smallpicture.com/outlinerHowto.html>

Glad you like it -- it _is_ really useful. ;-)

------
ssriram
I've been a longtime workflowy user and recently started using Fargo. Here are
my likes, dislikes and feature requests.

Likes: \- Dropbox storage \- Calendar outlines as well as free form outlines
\- The 'Instant outline' communication model

Dislikes: \- Too much mouse, keyboard interaction due to Fargo's quasi-
implementation of the vim like command-mode (structure) and insert (text) mode
sans vim-like idempotent 'esc' and 'i' or 'r' toggles. \-- So, Enter in fargo
lets one exit out of structure mode by opening a sibling node, (== vim 'o') -
The lack of an 'esc' however forces one to use the mouse to get back to
structure mode and than keyboard 'del' to remove this empty node. \-- A mouse
click on a node in structure mode gets one into insert mode. (== vim i) \- To
navigate up/down by keyboard requires one to switch from down arrow to right
arrow at an indent. Why can't i just use the down arrow?

Feature requests \- Auto-convert all <http://> entries into <a href= links \-
Support hashtags like workflowy \- Allow intra-outline linking \- Allow devs
to build plugins / macros so they can customize it to suit their needs. \-
Allow for multi-line outline entries (maybe a shift-enter)

------
jamesmccann
Would be nice to be able to see the application without linking it to my
Dropbox.

~~~
davewiner
You can use just the outliner here:

<http://littleoutliner.com/>

That's exactly the same outliner as in Fargo, using localStorage only.

The other consideration is that Fargo only gets access to a sub-folder of your
Apps folder in your Dropbox. The folder is created just for the app.

So it's very well sandboxed.

------
ronreiter
Awesome! Just don't really understand why Dropbox storage is so much better
than just using Workflowy.

~~~
davewiner
Workflowy is an excellent product, but having the outlines in Dropbox means
you have copies of the files locally and can share them with other apps that
work with OPML, which is a fairly standard file format among outliners.

------
vonskippy
Clunky at best, especially via Smartphone.

No clue why I would use this over Evernote - which has Android, iPhone, Web
Browser, and Windows Apps - all pointing to the same dataset in the cloud.

This app keeps forcing me to allow Dropbox.

Might be cool after a few revisions - right now seems like Alpha stage work.

------
necolas
FYI, the keyboard shortcuts on <http://littleoutliner.com/> seem to prevent me
from using cmd+opt+I or cmd+opt+U when the window has focus. cmd+opt+J works
though.

------
bowerbird
fargo is most definitely an interesting web-app, and i can see it being useful
for many people...

dave is a little bit over-enthusiastic about it \-- there are literally dozens
of writing tools that've been using dropbox for a long time now, to correct
just one of his main brag-points -- but it's not a crime to love what you've
made.

(nate kontny is similarly proud of his "draft", another writing-oriented web-
tool that's newish and attracting a lot of fans with its qualities.)

we'll see what dave's users end up doing with it.

-bowerbird

~~~
davewiner
We started a mail list for Dropbox users to find the software you're talking
about. Maybe you'll join the list and post some links.

[https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/dropbox-u...](https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/dropbox-
users)

Note I tried not to be enthusiastic about your comment. Didn't work. ;-)

~~~
bowerbird
you've censored me too many times for me to contribute to any endeavor that
you control, dave, so i'd pass on your listserve anyway...

but such a listserve is largely unnecessary. it's easy enough to find such
writing-tools, just by googling with the appropriate terms.

(or, if you wanna just go immediately to the most versatile:
<https://www.textdropapp.com>; but fair warning, the yearly cost is $32+.)

besides, dropbox support was big _last_year_. this year, something better is
now available. i'll leave you to your own devices to find it, dave, and
continue to wish you the best of luck, even if i feel you haven't treated me
so nicely.

and i certainly won't let your animosity color my view of your software, and
the potential it has.

although, to be honest, i think your earlier take \-- that an outlining tool
and a writing tool are two different types of tools, and need to retain their
separate focus in order to be their best -- was the correct one, and your new
hope that you can leverage fargo into a general writing tool is one that will
ultimately flop. but hey, that's just my opinion, and i'd love to see your
users prove me wrong, and do amazing stuff with fargo.

-bowerbird

~~~
davewiner
Nothing changed in my view about the relationship between outlining and
general writing tools. Fargo is an almost exact clone of the outliner I
created in 1987.

Here's something I wrote recently on the subject.

[http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordPro...](http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordProcessors)

I'm doing the best I can, I don't feel any animosity toward you, I don't know
where that's coming from.

Peace..

~~~
bowerbird
dave said:

> Nothing changed in my view about the relationship between outlining and
> general writing tools.

> Here's something I wrote recently on the subject.

>
> [http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordPro...](http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordProcessors)

right. and earlier, in march, you wrote something similar, here:

>
> [http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/march/imNotMakingBlogging...](http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/march/imNotMakingBloggingTools)

but since then, you added markdown support, which seems to indicate movement
toward writing and editing and publishing, in addition to the outlining.

further, you just recently retracted the march post, here:

>
> [http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomethi...](http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomething)

and, as i said, i think your earlier take (in march and april) was more
accurate, and that an attempt to go broader will cause fargo to lose focus,
just as you said in the april piece. but, again, i would love to be proven
wrong. because my tool-set attacks the issue from the other direction -- with
a focus on the writing and editing and publishing of long-form documents --
and i've decided not to incorporate any outlining capability because i think
it would blur that focus. but if your users can show me how to avoid that
blurring, i will learn from them. but lacking that, i believe that (early)
outlining is best seen as a good complement to (later) editing and publishing,
at least for long-form documents.

 __*

> I don't feel any animosity toward you, I don't know where that's coming
> from.

well, dave, you probably cannot be expected to keep track of all the people
you censor and block.

but you have censored my comments more than once, and blocked me on twitter.

and while i am quite sure that you don't have any _personal_ animosity toward
me, since you don't even know me, the acts of censorship and blocking are
_not_ friendly ones. from your perspective, you're probably just "protecting"
yourself from us "trolls". but i'd guess that you can imagine it looks
different from my perspective.

so no, i'm not gonna contribute to a listserve where you can censor my input.
i'll stay independent, so i can call you out when you're wrong, and give you
credit when you do good.

-bowerbird

~~~
davewiner
Blocking isn't something I have to answer to anyone for, it's a feature in
Twitter that's useful to help keep down the flamage. I think it's one of their
greatest innovations.

A little feedback -- you read a lot of meaning into things that are a lot
simpler than you think. For example, the markdown support was added because it
was coming up a lot in feature requests from users. It's just that simple.
Nothing more to it than that.

I've always used MORE and its descendants to write. I wrote every DaveNet
piece in MORE or Frontier or the OPML Editor. I write Scripting News in the
OPML Editor. Outliners are good for writing.

Like I said, I don't dislike you, or even know you (as you point out). And it
probably doesn't matter if you contribute to the mail list, but I don't see
how it could hurt. Whatever.

~~~
bowerbird
dave said:

> Blocking isn't something I have to answer to anyone for

i wasn't asking you to "answer to" me for your blocking... if you want to
ignore people like me who say things that we think you need to hear, go ahead
and ignore us, i don't care. heck, that's the reason why so many people ignore
_you_, dave.

> I think it's one of their greatest innovations.

i'm sure you do. but ignoring people is not an "innovation".

i was merely telling you why i wouldn't join your listserve, even if i did
think it'd be useful. (and, as i said, i don't; i can get more information by
simply searching around a bit. and further, the horizon of the cloud has
eclipsed dropbox.)

> markdown support was added because it was coming up a lot

um, yes, dave, i quite well understand that it is your users who are moving
you toward using fargo as a writing-tool, and that's precisely why i said i
hope that they succeed with it, so i can learn from _them_ how to make such a
dual focus work.

what you or i _think_ can work doesn't really matter (which is why i'm not
interested in your effort to tell me what you think).

what matters is whether people can show me a way to make it work.

> I write Scripting News in the OPML Editor.

and finally, yes, dave, it's certainly possible to use an outliner to write
lots and lots and lots and lots of short blog articles.

but that's not long-form writing. a _book_ is long-form writing, one cohesive
entity that has an arc from the beginning to the end.

heck, mike cane has used twitter to "write" over 275,000 tweets, but i don't
consider _that_ to be "long-form writing" either...

-bowerbird

~~~
davewiner
Is this you?

<https://twitter.com/bowerbird>

BTW, the only reason I block people on Twitter is if they tell me to shut up
(directly or indirectly) or if they make personal comments.

I've now read several of your rants here, and it doesn't surprise me one bit
that I blocked you on Twitter.

You're a very inspired writer, but your inspiration is very very dark! Maybe
you should write gothic novels with your fabulous writing tools. ;-)

~~~
bowerbird
um, no, that's not my account. that's an australian woman.

and i never told you to "shut up", directly or indirectly. plus, when i do use
that phrase, it's only in a joking way, because i'm a poet and i believe very
deeply in free speech.

also, i don't do "rants" -- my tone is always even-tempered, and i use reason,
not emotion -- plus my inspiration is _not_ "dark", let alone "very dark", let
alone "very very dark"... i take myself quite lightly, which is why i fly with
angels. so no, i won't be writing any gothic novels any time soon. :+)

now, have a nice day.

-bowerbird

p.s. apologies to lurkers, for letting this go so far off-topic.

~~~
davewiner
If you had done all that, I wouldn't have blocked you. :-)

~~~
bowerbird
this dialog has now become too boring for the lurkers \-- they care why you
banned me even less than i do -- so i am officially leaving this thread at
this time...

but notice that my participation in this thread started with:

> fargo is most definitely an interesting web-app,

> and i can see it being useful for many people...

it seems you can never say enough positive things about dave.

-bowerbird

------
eknkc
This is great! I just love the Dropbox integration. My two suggestions:

\- Keyboard shortcuts for file operations.

\- 3-5 recently used icons accessible on the main interface.

~~~
davewiner
Glad you like it! :-)

I've added your suggestion to our list of feature requests.

------
dodyg
I highly recommend Fargo and its underlying OPML format. It is pretty much the
only tab I keep open on my browser all day.

------
evanvhansen
I've been following Dave on outliners for a long while. I haven't made the
switch from workflowy yet.

Would be nice if tools like subtask.com would layer nicely on outliners. IE
the outline from Fargo could be used to create the mindmap or vice versa.
Preferably keeping themselves in sync rather than importing/exporting
manually.

------
gwillen
"Fargo is the only idea organizer that runs in the browser, cross-operating
system with entirely cloud-based storage."

I'm actually quite fond of another one, Workflowy.

~~~
SupremumLimit
I use Workflowy as well, and Fargo didn't feel quite as convenient to me. One
thing in particular I noticed was that moving an item to the same level as its
parent is easier in Workflowy.

So I'm sticking with Workflowy for now. I just wish it allowed me to add
multiline leaf items!

~~~
davewiner
Workflowy is great.

In Fargo, if you want to move an item to the same level as its parent there
are four ways to do it:

1\. Shift-Tab.

2\. Cmd-L.

3\. Drag it to the left with the mouse.

4\. Choose the Move Left command from the Outliner menu (useful on tablets and
phones).

------
d33d33
way to aggressive - installing before reading? no thx, no matter how useful it
could be or not! BAD PRACTICE

~~~
davewiner
You can most definitely read about it before installing.

We have two buttons, one takes you to a product backgrounder and the other
takes you to Dropbox. No one forces you to go one way or the other.

