
Study: Majority of engineers believe they will become millionaires - 2t
http://recode.net/2014/04/14/majority-of-engineers-believe-they-will-become-millionaires-study-says/
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mynewwork
"Become millionaires" sounds a lot sexier than "Will be adequately prepared
for retirement when they're 65".

If you have a full career in any white-collar profession and don't have a
million dollars between your 401k, home equity, IRA and other savings when you
retire, you spent too many years living too wastefully.

~~~
mildtrepidation
Or you were chronically underpaid and didn't realize it. Or you were the
victim of circumstances beyond your control that resulted in abnormal
financial burdens. Or any of innumerable reasons someone's life can simply not
go perfectly.

The idea that getting a job, keeping it, and living responsibly necessarily
result in sufficient savings and assets for retirement is pretty widespread
and deeply flawed. Life just is not that simple, and there are plenty of ways
to end up screwed (in varying degrees) without having done anything
particularly irresponsible or stupid that would warrant it.

~~~
greenyoda
You don't even need to be the victim of unforeseen circumstances. Just having
kids makes it much harder to save money. Your expenses for food, clothing,
housing, energy, healthcare, etc. go way up, and if both parents work, they're
paying for daycare when the children are young. Which means it's much harder
to invest a significant fraction of your income.

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EliRivers
Oh, _software_ engineers! Well, yes, as a breed, software engineers do seem to
be particularly prone to hubris. The ego and phenomenal sense of self-worth of
a mid-twenties PHP kludger compared to a mid-twenties chemical engineer or
civil engineer is just amazing.

~~~
fennecfoxen
> as a breed, software engineers do seem to be particularly prone to hubris.

Maybe. But I'm 29 and I have ~$450,000 in savings (mostly index funds), so I'm
pretty sure that having a cool million by the time I retire is _eminently_
within reach. An inflation-adjusted cool million, at that. Theoretical future
homebuying, childrens' college educations, and recessions notwithstanding.

~~~
ideaofxy
Hey Mate, may I ask since when you started saving and if you don't mind
disclosing how you got upto 450K ? I am database developer, 28 and have only
accumulated 60K. If you don't mind asking what strategy you use ? Thnx.

~~~
fennecfoxen
Small-company stock options. They don't just reward you for working at a
growing company, they reward you for working at company with a volatile stock
price. If you're extra-lucky they'll reprice your options at the bottom of a
dip, and then you'll make boatloads as the company recovers.

It's like one of those high-risk options strategies, except you don't actually
take any risk yourself beyond the job, and the options last a lot longer than
the ones you could buy online day-trading. Of course, you can't rely on them,
either, so don't take any job you wouldn't be happy with anyway. :P

Also, you know all that money you make? ... Don't-spend it. Also important. :P

~~~
azth
Does "small-company stock options" apply only to pre-IPO startups? If not,
what else does the term cover?

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sunir
Given the massive growth of this industry, most engineers are still relatively
young. Therefore, I'd certainly would expect any engineer making an upper
middle class income would think by the age of 65 that they would would end up
with millions in wealth.

[http://money.cnn.com/calculator/retirement/retirement-
need/](http://money.cnn.com/calculator/retirement/retirement-need/)

~~~
nawitus
The term "millionare" needs updating. I think what people actually mean by
"millionare" is something like "net worth of at least over 10 million
dollars".

~~~
chaired
According to Google ngram, the word millionaire peaked around 1910, when a
million dollars was about 25 million 2014 dollars.

~~~
velodrome
Likewise, the buying power of $1M in 2014 would be like having $40k in 1910.

Forbes defines weathly as $1M/yr in income and $10M in assets. If you were to
retire today with $25M and put this money in bonds, you could collect about
$1-2M/yr.

Sources:

[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=millionaire&ye...](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=millionaire&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cmillionaire%3B%2Cc0)

[http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=+1910+1+million+dollars](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=+1910+1+million+dollars)

[http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+million+dollars+in+19...](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+million+dollars+in+1910)

~~~
marvin
This definition of "wealthy" seems really, really arbitrary. My ancestors made
a living by exporting lumber which was chopped by hand, and came close to
dying of cold and hunger four or five times during the early 1900s. By that
measure, we are all living like kings.

You could live comfortably for the rest of your life on much less than $10MM
in assets, even in the absence of an income. So I'd say if there's an absolute
limit to "wealthy" in our geographic region, it would have to be "don't have
to work for a living", which would be around $1-2MM for a middle-class
lifestyle and a 4% annual return on capital.

~~~
velodrome
I totally agree. The definition of "wealthy" really depends who you are
talking to (subjective). This is why I used the Forbes definition because I am
not sure if your definition matches mine.

The term also varies internationally as well (emerging vs developed
countries). Like having a car, hot water, etc.

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cjdentra
Don't forget to account for the cost of raising a family in the areas all of
us engineers want to live in. Being a "millionaire" perhaps means having
access to $1M, not earning it over 10 years... and that is tough (no bad luck
at all or market downturns or health issues...)

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sentientmachine
The vast majority of drivers also think they are in the top 10% of good
drivers.

The mistake stems from the fact that brains have a really hard time viewing
themselves from the perspective of others.

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SomeGuyFromZA
Define "millionaire". Gross assets? Net assets? Cash? Annual net income?

I started investing at 25. I am 31 now and I am a "gross asset" millionaire.
If I stop investing any further and my portfolio maintains its current growth
I'll be a net asset millionaire by 37.

I won't become any kind of millionaire from my $100k a year salary alone...

~~~
ForHackernews
What the heck did you invest in?

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contingencies
I would encourage others to _hack conventional wealth metrics and move to the
developing world_.

Lower overheads, a stimulating environment (pick up a new language just by
living day to day, constantly discover new stuff), friendly test environment
for new startups (lower startup costs, less regulatory problems, etc.),
potentially lower taxes, and quite possibly a healthier lifestyle with less
stress, a better climate and a better diet.

I for one would be _terrified_ about living in, for instance, the US as an
aging person with medical needs. To my mind, healthy living is like extremely
cheap insurance that always pays out.

~~~
mahyarm
There is medicare for old people in the USA, as imperfect as it is. Also
developing countries might not be nice places to raise your kids unless you do
the private school / live in a bubble thing.

Try replacing the developing world with 'the US ghetto' or 'rural usa'. You
can approximate the costs fairly closely in some of those cases. $40k/$30k
houses in small town upstate new york or texas for example and %10-%15 federal
tax rates, still be within domestic flying distance of family.

~~~
contingencies
All valid points, but I still doubt you can get the same range of lifestyles
(eg. car free, beach proximity, unmatched availability of foodstuffs) that
cheaply, internal to the US, within a decent climatic zone, somewhere you'd
actually want to live. Besides, you're neglecting the linguistic/cultural
stimulation that comes from being somewhere truly new.

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jff
"91 percent say they feel they are the “most valued” employees at their
company."

Nice

Edit: does this mean they think engineers are the most valued, or that they
personally are the most valued?

~~~
icedchai
Either way, all it shows is that we're delusional.

~~~
WWLink
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA.

My friends, this is where the "I think my coworkers would be uncomfortable if
they found out how much more than them I make" rhetoric comes from.

Kinda reminds me of Hank Hill's "special deal". Sticker price and not a dollar
more! :) Make someone feel special and they'll think your lame deal is a good
one?

But on the other hand, why not? Becoming a millionaire with a business degree
isn't necessarily better odds. If you're working harder to help the company's
bottom line shouldn't you have better odds of making big money off those
efforts?

I wonder who they interviewed though, because 91% most valued seems very, very
high. Way too high. Most engineers I can think of think their skills are
undervalued and management is rewarded for their efforts.

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bluedevil2k
A 30-year old engineer making $120,000 a year should become a millionaire
easily by the time they are 40.

A more interesting question would have been "Do you think you'll ever sell an
app/business for $1M?" \- the crux of the question is "Do you think you'll hit
the jackpot?", which in today's world, is selling something that took
relatively small amount of effort to build.

~~~
mattgreenrocks
> A 30-year old engineer making $120,000 a year should become a millionaire
> easily by the time they are 40

How so?

~~~
bluedevil2k
Get married, save $60,000 a year (including 401k matching, etc), get 8% growth
per year, 3% raise per year...that's $1,053,000 by my calculations.

~~~
btian
$60000 is basically after tax income if your pre-tax income is $120k.

Also 8% growth a year is quite a stretch given that risk free rate is 2.64%
(10-year treasury yield), and inflation eats 2% a year...

~~~
bluedevil2k
Pre-tax income of $120k would net about $95k in the US for a married man with
2 kids and a house in a tax-free state (Texas, Florida, etc.) 8% growth isn't
a stretch, it's the average return for S&P 500 over the past 100 years.

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michaelochurch
Obligatory: [http://www.bravenewlife.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/03/hugh....](http://www.bravenewlife.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/03/hugh.png)

Software culture is now all about the MacLeod Clueless. That's also why the
median (and shitty) software company will now discard people once they are old
enough that either (a) they have a clue, and get that the private-sector
programmer game is rigged, or (b) they _should_ have a clue.

