
In College, Working Hard to Learn High School Material - mvs
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/24/education/24winerip.html?_r=1&ref=education
======
capnrefsmmat
I work as an undergraduate teaching assistant in a sophomore physics course,
and I've done tutoring for high school "advanced placement" physics classes
before. In each case I observe the same problems: students can't do simple
algebra, don't understand concepts like dimensional analysis (make sure that
when you try to find an energy, it has units of energy), and don't actively
seek help when they're struggling.

I've had AP students (high school seniors!) write things like this:

7x - 4 = 10, therefore 3x = 10.

It took a moment for it to sink in that 7x - 4 is not the same as 3x.

Students don't grasp the basic concepts, and nobody takes the time to catch
them up, impeding their ability to learn until they catch up and develop a
better understanding. Unfortunately the second step often never happens.

This is why I'm excited about methods like the Khan Academy's exercise system,
where you're encouraged to stay on a concept until you truly understand it.
I'm interested to see if they can pull it off successfully, and if it'll be
put to good use. Education certainly needs all the help it can get.

I wonder what a physics major and hobby programmer like myself can do to help.

~~~
kamens
Hobby programmers are making a big difference right now, helping out Khan
Academy by contributing exercises.

The whole thing is open source: <http://github.com/khan/khan-exercises>

We've had people who claim to have never been professional programmers come in
and create impressive exercises that thousands of students are using daily to
fill gaps in algebra, trig, calculus, etc.

~~~
capnrefsmmat
Sweet. Does the Khan Academy plan to incorporate interactive simulations into
its curriculum? I'd imagine they'd be very valuable in fields like physics,
where concepts aren't particularly transparent unless you get to play with
them for a while.

Here's a couple examples of the sort of thing I mean. Along with another
physicist, we've made a complete special relativity simulator (still rather
beta, though -- UI needs improvement, and the demos don't have much
explanation):

[http://schroedingers-
hat.github.com/jsphys/relativity/relati...](http://schroedingers-
hat.github.com/jsphys/relativity/relativity.html)

There's some premade demos, and the goal is to make it embeddable so it can be
used along with a video or text to illustrate a point. I've also done a bit of
an interactive tutorial on wave interference, where you can play with waves to
see the result:

[http://schroedingers-
hat.github.com/jsphys/waves/wave_summat...](http://schroedingers-
hat.github.com/jsphys/waves/wave_summation.html)

Eventually I'd like to finish off these simulations and use them to teach, as
part of a complete curriculum. There's been some past efforts (with Java
applets, for instance), but nothing integrated into a curriculum. Someday...

~~~
kamens
Yes yes yes. We're:

A) taking small steps every day to make our exercises more and more
interactive (see @jpulgarin's link below)

B) thinking about longer-term projects, simulations, whatever you want to call
'em.

We welcome anybody to step in and blow the doors off our current exercise
framework with a full-fledged simulation of some sort.

------
ivan_ah
I have a book coming out at the end of the week that starts from 2+2 and goes
all the way up to calculus and linear algebra. My private tutoring experience
leads me to believe, that there is a market for "math explained simply"
material for adults.

Do you guys think there is a market for printed textbooks?

I hope to earn a living from selling print-on-demand copies at lulu dot com.
When people ask me "what is your startup" and I tell them that it is a math
and physics textbook they laugh at me, but I think it is actually a pretty
good business idea.

Am-I on brain crack?

Oh I forgot to say -- the book is really kicks ass and targeted to low-
attention-span youth. I do a coherent rendition of high school math in 90
pages, calculus in 60 pages, mechanics in 50 pages, etc. The page format is
half-of-letter. email me if you want to see.

~~~
graeme
Why would a low attention span youth buy a math textbook? And is it for adults
or youth? Will people of all levels like it?

I once thought about buying a math text, as I noticed my Math skills were
atrophying. Nothing seemed excellent, in terms of being aimed directly at
adults wanting to learn math for no particular purpose.

But khan academy is excellent for that purpose.

Your book could sell, but you'd need to be clear in who it's for and how
they'll benefit. Book marketing is a whole other Challenge, even if your book
is good and does meet an unfilled need. An meeting a need isn't easy.

As the other commenter said, there are math books to be had by the hundred.
There are free math exercises online. Most people don't care, and are busy.

Start by testing/marketing your book with students. Have them write reviews.
Find out what they seem to like about it, an try to work that into your
message if it's a need you hadn't considered. Good luck.

~~~
Tichy
Serious question: is watching Khan Academy really learning, or is it just the
illusion of learning? After watching the Algebra lectures, can you say "I
learned Algebra" (meaning I spent time in a process that could be called
learning) or can you say "I _learned_ Algebra" (meaning you now actually
understand Algebra and can use it in your daily work)?

I am really trying to understand, because my brain seems to be wired
differently than the modern generation. I find it harder to learn from videos
than from books (although most books are too verbose, too).

~~~
adestefan
Isn't that the same as asking is someone really learned something by just
reading a book? Do you know how many programming language books I've read and
can't program a lick in the language? Too many to count.

Learning is an active process no matter which medium is doing the delivery
(book, video, in person, etc.) You need to work problems, do examples, prove
things, and review to really learn something.

~~~
Tichy
True, but watching videos can be done entirely in passive mode. It is also
very clumsy to flick forward and backward to rewatch a fact you didn't catch
the first time you watched it.

Actually come to think of it, that might be really interesting data the Khan
Academy is sitting on: how often people try to rewatch a part of the video.
Could be an indicator if they are really learning, or pseudo learning. Or
maybe it is only me who sometimes needs to rewatch parts.

------
InclinedPlane
This is precisely why there's so much increasing reliance on college
experience as a necessary credential for so many jobs, even office work. A
high school diploma is no longer a guarantee that someone has basic literacy
skills or understands basic algebra.

~~~
dalke
Was it ever?

~~~
0x12
[http://fathersforlife.org/education/happy_days_decline_educa...](http://fathersforlife.org/education/happy_days_decline_education.htm)

~~~
dalke
I read that essay. I don't believe it, or rather, I think it exaggerates what
it meant to study a field. I'll base my view on what "1st year calculus"
means. (Do note that my high school in Miami offered matrix algebra and
differential equations, so I see "1st year calculus" as being a bit basic for
what a high school might offer.)

I know that in the 1800s few schools taught the calculus we now call
"calculus." Back then that term was used for many fields of math, including
logic ("the propositional calculus"). Nowadays it's almost only applied to
differential and integral calculus. The rigorous foundations of calculus were
only laid starting in the mid-1800s, so I seriously doubt that any "backwoods"
student would have been doing anything remotely like ε/δ proofs then; that
being the basis for our modern understanding of calculus. It might also have
been that "1st year calculus" is what we now call "pre-calculus."

That's not saying it's impossible. Here's an example book on calculus from De
Morgan in the early 1800s:
[http://books.google.com/books?id=zA4TAQAAMAAJ&ots=iIzsbl...](http://books.google.com/books?id=zA4TAQAAMAAJ&ots=iIzsblNu3F&dq=calculus&lr&pg=PA38#v=onepage&q&f=false)
. This is from a book series meant for adults/non-researchers interested in
learning more about the latest science. You can see it has a more geometric
approach. I find fascinating the footnote remarking the lack of consensus on
how to use the integral sign. The comment on page 52 is telling:

    
    
        There is then in this method neither the rigor of geometry, nor that approach to truth, which, in the method of Leibnitz, may be carried to any extent we please, short of absolute correctness. We would therefore recommend to the student not to regard any proposition derived from this method as true on that account; for falsehoods, as well as truths, may be derived from it.
    

This is quite simply because in 1836 they didn't know how to handle infinities
correctly. No modern calculus book would have that phrase, because we do.

But let's suppose his father did study differential and integral calculus.
That would make him the exception, and not indicative of the average. For
evidence: <http://pballew.net/mathbooks> describes math education in the US
and mentions that in 1871 for the University of Nebraska in Lincoln:

    
    
        "It was early accepted that mathematics, in particular calculus, would not be a required study for all students. In the first University Catalog it is noted that "Surgery and Calculus are not required of students in the Classical course." Exemptions from other mathematics were soon included."
    

I also read in "The calculus for engineers and physicists" Griffin 1897 this
line "...methods of cheating the student into using the Calculus without his
knowing that he is doing so..." which tells me that calculus wasn't that
common in 1897 either.

I could apply the same questions to what "geology" means. Here's a textbook
from the latter part of the 1800s. It goes into detail about all sorts of
different rocks, where they are found how they are use commercially, and so
on. It describes land forms. But what of geological processes? Nothing -
because we hadn't figured it out yet! It says that folded strata probably come
from cooling of the earth's "heated nucleus." In the section "Drift or Boulder
Period" it notes what we now say is evidence of the Ice Age, but which then
was a curious unknown "produced by Icebergs, Glaciers, or both." They didn't
know if it was ice covering the surface, or if the land submerged and icebergs
came.

They certainly didn't know about continental drift.

So the geology of the 1800s would have been quite different from the "earth
science" I learned in school.

------
JoshTriplett
I earned my A.S. at Portland Community College before going on to a larger
university for my B.S. and PhD.

PCC had a large high-school completion program which they tried to steer many
entering students towards, along with all the corresponding remedial classes;
these served the dual functions of providing an alternative to traditional
high school and remedial education for people who supposedly graduated high
school. PCC took the very sensible step of providing a placement test when you
first enrolled to find out what level of classes you should start with; you
could place anywhere from "need 3 years of remedial classes" to "skip the
first year or so of english and math".

In my case, I lucked out and got a good advisor, who confirmed what I'd found
from the handbooks: rather than spend 3 years earning a high-school diploma
(graduating at the same time I _would_ have received one in standard K-12), I
could spend 2 years earning an A.S. and enter PSU as a junior. I chose the
latter. :)

------
crag
What did the NYT expect? When you gut the public school system (Florida is
just a mess) of funds what did everyone think was gonna happen?

In Florida, the most important thing to teachers (and the school boards) is
students passing the FCAT (state wide tests). The more in your district who
pass the more funds you protect. It's no longer about teaching kids a good
education. It's a ridiculous reward system to protect your job.

Most public schools have cut out "unnecessary" courses like; music, band, art,
history (except American history - only teach what is needed to pass. You
looking for an in-depth discussion of the civil war? Not gonna happen),
advanced math (hell even basic math in some schools), the sciences, drama,
english lit, etc, etc.

It's shameful down here. And I think it's a major factor in our "class
divide".

You want your kids to get a good education, you send them to private school.
If you can afford it.

~~~
DilipJ
You don't need to spend a lot for kids to learn the basics. Public school
budgets in the US need to be gutted, they are way too bloated as it is.

The issue today is that the federal government in the US has made it a
priority that every kid go to college, including the ones in the lower half of
the bell curve. That's a recipe for diluting the value of a college degree,
which historically only the top quartile of students would receive.

------
mhartl
_"Passing the Regents don’t mean nothing," Ms. Thomas said._

Indeed it don't.

~~~
davyjones
Indeed; it doesn't.

------
jonbro
I have been in the workforce for several years now and I find that I need to
constantly be refreshing my math. A big chunk of math reeduction came when I
moved from doing web development to doing games development, and I find that
now that I am in the field, it seems to be sticking with me.

I think that one of the big missing things in math education is the
application. I can remember all of the stuff that I learned when using a
compass and a straight edge, but when I came out of private school, and went
to a public school, and started learning out of books, nothing stuck.

------
gtani
Hmm, i guess the point is to inspire HN'ers to think about systematically
improving public education (or at least volunteer as a tutor).

~~~
JoshTriplett
Personally, I found that community college did a far better job at teaching
the material; I suspect that in large part this occurred because the classes
fit into a degree program with prerequisites. People would start at the
community college, find out that the first-year college classes they needed
had prerequisites of material they didn't understand, and go back to the right
starting point.

We could do worse than to just send all high-school students to a community
college, or programs structured like them.

~~~
jseliger
_Personally, I found that community college did a far better job at teaching
the material; I suspect that in large part this occurred because the classes
fit into a degree program with prerequisites._

Compared to universities, you're probably right. Most big universities reward
faculty and grad students based on research, not on teaching. So faculty and
grad students optimize what they're rewarded for, on average. (I made this
point in an essay I wrote for students called "How Universities Work:"
[http://jseliger.com/2010/09/26/how-universities-work-or-
what...](http://jseliger.com/2010/09/26/how-universities-work-or-what-i-
wish-i%e2%80%99d-known-freshman-year-a-guide-to-american-university-life-for-
the-uninitiated/) ). If you want to get better teachers or instructors, the
universities have to start rewarding staff for that. If they don't, they get
what we have now: universities optimized mostly for research with an
incidental sideline in teaching.

It doesn't help, too, that a lot of students aren't in universities for
learning—they're in to party or hang out or burn time or whatever. But that's
another subject: [http://jseliger.com/2011/10/07/student-choice-employment-
ski...](http://jseliger.com/2011/10/07/student-choice-employment-skills-and-
grade-inflation/) .

~~~
surfsurge
I would generally agree that historically universities have not been as
focused on teaching as research, but I believe there might be a shift in this.
Many top-tier engineering schools, such as Purdue, have engineering education
departments (<https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/AboutUs/>) looking into the
pedagogy of technical education.

------
radarsat1
an important question to ask is, what about the students who now have a high
school diploma who otherwise would not have one, and are not going to attend
college? I bet they are better off, and, unfortunately, are likely a large
portion, if not the majority, of high school graduates in that region.

I agree there is a problem here, but am afraid it is not as simple as "durr,
their high school is too easy." There are kids in those schools who will
_need_ that diploma; of course, making things easier will devalue the diploma
in the long run, so making things easy is no solution, but you can't entirely
fault them for focusing hard on getting the students to pass exams. It's more
like a symptom of larger system we live in, where having that diploma is
simply far, far better than not having it. (whether it carries any real
meaning or not)

------
forgotAgain
So 13.9% of community college students get a degree in 3 years. To me that
says the system is trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Everyone
doesn't need to have a college degree. Everyone needs advanced training but
that doesn't always mean college. High schools should return to offering
vocational training as well as academic paths.

------
saturdaysaint
_“A few years ago, we noticed the numbers really jump,” said John Mogulescu,
the senior university dean for CUNY._

Thank you "No Child Left Behind"?

