
Microsoft knows Windows is obsolete.  a sneak peek at its replacement - ourmandave
http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-windows-must-die-for-the-third-time/
======
oceanswave
There are a lot of issues with this article - Windows S is no more a 'new' OS
than an environment running AppLocker is a new OS. The $49 'upgrade' from WinS
to a 'full' Windows 10 is simply removing the restriction, it's the same OS
through and through

UWP doesn't explicitly require XAML as part of the stack directx and win2d
provide more direct access to graphics hardware

Edge is not a Native UWP application - whatever that means - it's possible to
take existing applications and package them to run as a UWP applications, even
ones that use COM and Win32. The rendering engine that Edge uses is actually
part of the UWP stack - any HTML+JS UWP app uses EdgeHTML as the layout
engine. The JavaScript engine, chakra, is a cross platform open source c/c++
library

What MS is doing with WinS is attempting to promote a walled garden and
changing windows into a closed platform.

WinS is the first consumer facing foray to this approach. Somehow announcing
this in the same breath as education makes it ok.

It might be a noble effort to try to sandbox windows apps, however there are
some major detractors: 1) The MS store is a mess, it combines the worst parts
of the android App Store and the walled approach of the iOS App Store. But
nobody seems to be committed into cleaning it up. 2) not having a compelling
mobile story makes existing devs look elsewhere - even Microsoft itself. 3)
eliminating compatibility for a broad swath of applications is orthogonal to
the approach that Windows has had for decades.

Windows S is the freemium strategy applied to Operating Systems

~~~
jetti
>Edge is not a Native UWP application - whatever that means

My assumption is that it is compiled with .NET Native[0]. That would explain
why it is only available on Windows 10, as only Windows 10 supports .NET
Native.

[0] [https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/dn584397%28v=vs.110...](https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/dn584397%28v=vs.110%29.aspx?f=255&MSPPError=-2147217396)

~~~
oceanswave
It's not, it's written in C++

~~~
pjmlp
You mean C++ with Windows Runtime Library, which makes it a UWP application.

------
flohofwoe
The article paints UWP as a modern programming environment, superior to Win32,
that only 'lazy developers' would reject, when in reality it is a confusing
mess of desktop and outdated mobile paradigms from 10 years ago when mobile
devices had dramatically less RAM and were much less powerful then 'real
computers'.

UWP is in many ways worse than Win32, it requires much more boilerplate code
to get stuff done, and requires a proprietary dialect of C++ which is not
quite compatible with standard C++ (good luck trying to compile most existing
C/C++ code on UWP, it's even worse than the Objective-C situation on OSX/iOS).

The baffling fact that UWP manages to be even more complex and less pleasant
to write code for then Win32 (which was also a pretty bad API to begin with),
coupled with the suicidal closing-down of an once open platform is what really
concerns me about the future of Windows. That's not how you win back the
hearts and minds of developers.

~~~
captainmuon
UWP is about 10 years or more too late.

C++/CX is a dialect of C++ that has refcounted pointers (like COM). It is much
better than the (also proprietary) extensions for COM to C++ MSVC had decades
ago, and it is also much better IMO that managed C++ and C++/CLI. Of course,
in a way it is still a hack. But I read that MS is also working on a way of
doing managed components in modern C++ (i.e. 11/14/17). MS is doing a lot of
great work in the area of modern C++ lately (surprisingly to me).

And UWP is yet another incompatible version of XAML/WPF/Silverlight/.... I
don't like the castrated nature of it, it is incredible simple things are hard
or impossible (like cross process drag and drop, which is not supported even
in MS Office store apps. Or any kind of IPC, or networking with localhost).
But things are getting better, as MS removes the worst pain points and
developers learn to circumvent the missing parts.

One thing that seems great in UWP is it's async-first approach. I learned to
appreciate that paradigm with Python/Twisted and JS.

So it's not all bad. If Microsoft had UWP 10 or 15 years ago (in their
"Avalon" phase) it would have been great. Now, it's just "meh".

~~~
frik
In an alternative reality were DotNet never happened and MS evolved Win32API
with COM (so basically continue the strategy of 1989-1998 until the great
break with DotNet happened), yes then a new "Win64API" with modern C++ would
have been great. But the Web happened, DotNet original vision failed, their
pivoted vision was declared as legacy 5 days ago too, and UWP failed with no
one buying their Win10phone (0.02% global market share).

------
casca
TL;DR: Microsoft has introduced a new version of Windows 10 called "Windows 10
S"[1]. The big differences are that you can only install apps from the Windows
Store and you can't join an on-premise domain. This walled garden approach is
designed to "enhance securrty" and kill off Win32 with the convenient side-
effect of allowing Microsoft to block apps from competing vendors, so you'll
use Edge and not Chrome.

[1] [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/windows-10-s](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-s)

~~~
cubano
I can't for the life of me see why I would ever want such a monstrosity on my
desktop...perhaps certain help-desk and locked down corporate configurations
could benefit slightly from a walled-off version of Windows, but much of this
is already available using Group Policies and such, so I just don't get it.

Please don't tell me they are trying to androidize the desktop, because that
could possible be the most hairbrained idea MS has ever had, esp. this late in
the game.

------
tonyedgecombe
"Some of it is developer laziness. It's not like they haven't had 15 years to
learn and adopt .NET and the past five years to adopt Metro/Modern/UWP."

Once I can't target Win32 anymore I'll switch to the browser. Metro/Modern/UWP
isn't on my radar. I doubt I'm alone in those thoughts.

~~~
pjmlp
Not everyone enjoys doing web development, personally every web project I take
part on feels like being in the galleys.

~~~
ribfeast
I've only ever done web. What's the difference in your opinion?

~~~
pjmlp
The web is a Frankenstein of HTML/CSS/JavaScript that is yet to match the
productivity we already had in the 90's with Delphi, VB and 4GL tools.

Even now, there isn't any Web tool that allows for designing Web UIs like
Microsoft Blend (XAML) or Qt Creator (QML).

The Web could have been like that if XHTML and its related standards were
adopted, then we could have had something like XUL or XAML.

Instead we have the broken promise of Web Components that still aren't
properly supported across all major browsers, or the "UI framework of the day"
without any kind of tooling support besides code.

------
jbb67
UWP is a locked lock, annoying, walled garden that nobody wants to write
programs for,

Nobody wants to write programs for it, and the only people who run UWP
programs are those who either have no choice or do so by mistake.

If we can't run WIN32 or freely write win32 programs then windows is dead.

~~~
pjmlp
Yeah sure, it is the year of something on desktop.

Legacy Win32 applications can be packaged as UWP ones.

~~~
digi_owl
Desktop Bridge?

Missed that one, as was under the impression that UWP and Win32 was strictly
separated.

I do notice that this results in the Win32 program for all intents and
purposes becoming a UWP app. Complete with the issues of installs only
happening via the store...

------
zzbzq
The argument doesn't seem that cogent. The strategy described is what they
already tried to do with the Surface RT, a failure which the article briefly
mentions and moves on.

Nonetheless, there's a truth here about UWP. Applications today are all HTML
websites. They should be containerized native applications, navigated
spontaneously like the web, but running native code protected by the privilege
declarations system familiar to phone apps. In fact, the "web of apps" is long
overdue, but it's been held back by two major players: Apple, whose Appstore
discouraged inter-connected-ness by encouraging a micropayment model, while
also promoting platform exclusivity; and Google, who pumps billions of dollars
into browsers and other web tech propping up the antiquated HTML-based web.

A new system is overdue. UWP is not that system though, it's a straight-up
copycat of Apple's app store ecosystem, nothing more.

~~~
ttd
> Applications today are all HTML websites.

Perhaps I misunderstood your point, but taking it literally: this claim is
just plainly untrue, and reflects a very narrow-minded view of software in
general.

------
urnotwrongbut
Windows S is still Windows, but with more restriction. I don't see how giving
up control over the apps is more secure. It just means you have to trust
Microsoft instead of some other org making the app. With the Windows 10
privacy issues, the last thing I want to do is give up control.

------
ThomaszKrueger
Windows 10S will be a resounding success just like the Windows Phone.

------
jerf
What happens to Steam and similar apps? (Honest question.)

~~~
tyfon
They are screwed.. Which is why they have been betting so heard on Linux
recently.

[https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/microsofts-latest-
tac...](https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/microsofts-latest-tactics-show-
gabe-newell-of-valve-was-right-to-worry.6745)

~~~
zanny
They haven't really been betting on Linux at all for about two years. All
major development efforts, at least consumer facing ones, have pretty much
stopped. SteamOS now is as bad as it was when the Steam Machines released,
which are still awful. Feral and Aspyr are pretty much the only two games in
town nowadays producing consistent and good Linux ports of AAA titles. And
they are just that, though - ports. Neither company has the developer manpower
or budget for their ports to make good native OpenGL games. Likewise, the
other major source of Linux titles is Unity, whom also haven't invested much
in making a well optimized OpenGL rendering engine compared to their DX one.

The end result is that games run poorly on Linux and give a terrible
experience to anyone trying it, because nobody wants to invest in native
titles that are as optimized as the Windows ones... besides Valve. Pretty much
every Valve game runs as good or better on Linux than on Windows, but they
were the exception able to throw what is in all likelihood more money than
they have made from Linux users in their first year on the platform to port
these titles correctly.

Top it off with how bad the uptake on Vulkan has been relative to DX12, and
the future is not bright for Linux gaming. It is way better than it ever was,
and for anyone except a hardcore gamer the library is definitely vast enough
to not feel any desire to use Windows over Linux for the sole reason of
gaming, but its in such a shoddy state it won't win over hearts or minds any
time soon.

------
douche
Ok, so Windows S is a Windows Chromebook.

I imagine we'll just continue to ignore that UWP and the Windows Store exist.
Wake me up when full versions of Office and Visual Studio are built as UWP
apps.

~~~
frik
Me too. Wake me up when Office and Visual Studio are built as DotNet UWP apps.
Their codebase is still C with classes and C++ mixed, dating back to 1989/90.

~~~
pjmlp
C++ is also a UWP supported language, no need to go .NET for UWP apps.

Also they did announce that the next Office version will move to the store.

------
JohnDeHope
Is there a list of apps that are missing from the Windows Store that cause
friction for Windows S? I see it often called a chicken and egg problem. But I
never see anyone suggest a list of what they think the eggs are.

(I don't think the problem is missing apps. My guess is that most UWP apps in
the Windows Store use a tablet-ey, metro, modern ui, and nobody seems to like
it much.)

~~~
r3bl
Oh boy, where do I start!

I have a two-in-one laptop/tablet (from Lenovo's Yoga series), and while I
have _really tried_ to use the Store apps so that they are comfortable in the
tablet mode, I've yet to find a PDF reader that doesn't crash randomly
(including Adobe Reader's Microsoft Store port) and have basically no decent
epub reader (I can't find a single app in the store that will open two epub
files without any weird formatting issues, let alone support things like
highlighting and such). There are no clients to any Google products. Your
cloud option is basically OneDrive and that's it. Heck, I've even struggled to
find a text editor, so in the end, I've just used OneNote to write down some
texts. Kindle reader? Nope. Decent browser? Nope.

In fact, when I think about it, the _only_ useful Store app I was able to find
was the Slack client, which seems to me like UWP-bundled Electron app that
simply works! Of course, not even that one comes with no issues, because font
rendering in it is absolutely horrendous on a HiDPI screen.

I could go on and on about this. At the end, I'm mostly using desktop apps in
the tablet mode (things like Calibre, Chrome browser etc.) and that seems to
work fine. But the Store apps (with that one sole exception where I'm actually
using a Store app in the desktop mode as well) are just useless.

~~~
JohnDeHope
Thanks that was helpful for educating me.

------
forgottenpass
_and Microsoft knows that it is necessary for the company 's software business
and for the PC industry to evolve and stay healthy._

This the boring buisness-thinking take that misses the forest for the
quarterly earnings report. Operating systems are largely... done-ish. We've
entered a period of refinement and iteration that can't keep pace with the
expectation to have something new to sell. I dissagree with the author that
pushing forward full-steam is going to keep the industry "healthy."

Windows XP SP 2 is the last OS that I wanted to upgrade to. The rest has just
been a drag along as enhancements are held back to be bundled with the
breaking changes that do justify a revision bump, and a fresh coat of paint is
used to sell the whole thing. OS X is similar, but less egregious.

We're in a period of kicking the can down the road. The UI keeps lurching
randomly in fashionable directions but makes interaction inconsistent, obtuse
or lackluster. Feature sets get locked down to enable new paywalls.
Gamification is everywhere turning tools into ARPU-optimizing skinner boxes.

The End of low-hanging fruit is here. How we deal with it will determine if
computing retains it's magical unbounded possibility space or not.

------
ropman76
As a lazy windows dev, I have seen more things go to web applications than
desktop apps. One of my current work projects would be great as a desktop app.
The client/ server divide in this website has added no small amount of hours
keeping track of object state between the client and server. A desktop app
would have made things much simpler in that regard. I am a big fan of desktop
apps and have made a career developing them in .Net, but adding more hoops to
jump through is not the answer in this regard.

------
xuan
Where does Windows Subsystem for Linux fit for the future?

~~~
HelloNurse
Half impressive tech demo and half veiled suggestion to move to Linux.

------
digi_owl
How well did XP starter do?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP_editions#Starter_Ed...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP_editions#Starter_Edition)

------
kminehart
Microsoft doesn't plan on replacing Windows with this, right? They are just
going to use this on lower-cost machines by obsoleting win32 apps? If not,
this seems like a really bad move.

------
PaulHoule
One problem with that thesis: Metro is built on top of Win32.

~~~
zzbzq
Not really true. They built a new OS-level api called winrt. It includes a
subset of win32. However, other parts of it are completely new and do not
"call into win32" the way, say, .NET on Windows generally does.

------
robotnoises
I suppose this means no more electron or nwjs apps, either, probably to many's
delight.

~~~
yodon
Electron apps can be packaged up as UWP and submitted to the Windows Store
(with the restriction that you can't currently target Xbox, HoloLens, or
Windows Mobile via Electron)[0]

[0] [https://www.onmsft.com/news/electron-apps-can-now-
converted-...](https://www.onmsft.com/news/electron-apps-can-now-converted-
windows-apps-distributed-via-windows-store)

------
felixsanz
Meh... I'd still prefer Windows 3.11.

Everything that I discovered there was such an amazing surprise. Good times.

------
anotheryou
Are many of these legacy apps recource heavy? Maybe a tiny VM will do the
trick.

