
NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data - donohoe
http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1477934#bmb=1
======
jval
Right... so Attorney General Eric Schneiderman's campaign contributors last
election?

[http://www.followthemoney.org/database/StateGlance/candidate...](http://www.followthemoney.org/database/StateGlance/candidate.phtml?c=135707)

At number 4 with 1.58% of total campaign moneys, East 103rd Street Realty.
Parent corporation: Glenwood Real Estate Corp.

[http://www.glenwoodnyc.com/properties/](http://www.glenwoodnyc.com/properties/)

"Luxury Apartment Rentals in New York City"

Obviously the fact that people are renting their apartments is not something
that buildings are capable of managing for themselves and has become a matter
of great importance to the entire state of New York.

~~~
Xylakant
Or blatant tax avoidance and disregard for building code and hotel regulations
is a matter of importance for the state of New York. It may seem all outdated
to us global internet citizens, but a lot of those old-fashioned real-world
rules evolved because there was a problem. That's not to say that all rules in
their current incarnation are sensible and well applicable to the current
state of affairs, but participation in the law system is not voluntary - you
don't get to opt out just because you think it's unjust.

~~~
27182818284
>That's not to say that all rules in their current incarnation are sensible

We should be having that debate rather than shooting first and asking
questions later.

~~~
chimeracoder
But that's not the place of the legislature (or a judge), not the AG.

I realize that in practice this happens, but we set a dangerous precedent when
we allow the Attorney General to decide what should and should not be
prosecuted. In theory, the Attorney General prosecutes all perceived
violations of the law[0], and it's up to the justice system to, well, decide
of the law is just.

[0] And I don't think anybody's debating _that_ this violates the law; the
debate is whether or not the law is just.

~~~
repsilat
> In theory, the Attorney General prosecutes all perceived violations of the
> law[0]

What? No. The AG is a political office. Prosecutorial discretion is used all
the time because there are lots of anachronistic and over-broad laws on the
books, and because there are lots of lawbreakers that are not politically
expedient to prosecute.

~~~
rayiner
Exercising prosecutorial discretion is appropriate when you're talking about
enforcing laws against having sex with the lights on or some such thing. Not
when you're talking about enforcing laws that probably only a vocal minority
actually oppose. There's a small group of property owners who want to rent out
their places on AirBnB, and a much bigger group worried about what the
constant stream of short-term renters will do to their neighborhoods.

This investigation is clearly political, but not in the shadowy anti-
competitive way implied above. Property owners are the most important
constituency for state and local governments. To a great extent, those
governments exist to protect the interests of property owners. An AG pursuing
a pro-owner position is hardly to be considered the result of political
corruption.

~~~
3825
>a much bigger group worried about what the constant stream of short-term
renters will do to their neighborhoods.

Tell me more about how the concerns of the majority overrule the rights of the
minority.

~~~
Goronmon
_Tell me more about how the concerns of the majority overrule the rights of
the minority._

I'm not sure the snark is necessary or even make sense. The 'minority'
shouldn't expect a right to illegally rent out their living spaces. I'm not
sure what point you are trying to make here.

~~~
dantheman
The minority shouldn't expect the right to illegally vote, or go to this
building, etc...

------
king_jester
It is important to note that is it a big deal to NYC to ensure that
residential spaces do not become de facto hotel rooms that avoid the taxes and
regulation associated with running a hotel. NYC has been experiencing
tremendous rent cost increases over the last decade and housing costs are
becoming more unaffordable. Any residential space that gets turned into a
pseudo hotel that generates income at the expense of being a livable space for
an NYC resident only makes this situation worse.

------
wehadfun
I own a vacation rental and list on AirBnB. AirBnB should pay the taxes.
AirBnB is not a simple directory of houses/apartments/tents for rent. They are
a "reseller" or maybe "re-renter" of houses/apartments/... For example you may
charge $100 a night but AirBnB sells your property for like $125 a night. Is
the host supposed to pay taxes on the whole $125? Really the guest is not even
renting from the host. The guest is renting from AirBnB. The guest pays AirBnb
not the host. When a guest pays AirBnb keeps the money until the guest arrives
and pay you at their discretion. If there is a problem and the host wants some
of the guest security deposit. The host has to ask AirBnb for it and AirBnb
determines how much the host gets. A host can't even email the guest or get
their phone number until AirBnb allows. As a host you are a supplier to AirBnb
and suppliers in general do not have to deal with taxes. If you buy a coke
from a gas station, the gas station is responsible for paying local taxes Not
The Coca-Cola Company.

~~~
jchung
Actually Coca Cola pays taxes on its income just like you do.

But I'm interested in the broader point you're advocating for... Why do you
care if AirBnB pays the taxes instead of you? Unless you think the renters are
going to suddenly start paying more (unlikely), you're taking it on the chin
at some point, either in the form of reduced income for you when AirBnB starts
taking a cut, or in the form of reduced demand when AirBnB raises prices
across the board and guest demand is decreased.

~~~
wehadfun
I said "local taxes". Sure Coke pays income taxes but they do not pay sales
tax in every place where coke is sold. Reduced income when AirBnb takes a cut?
They take a cut. On both sides. They reason why Airbnb should pay taxes is
they are the ones actually selling. Not the host. When you buy something at a
grocery store. The store charges sales tax and they are responsible for
sending it to the local tax people. The supliers may have to pay income tax
but sales tax is paid by the seller.

------
argumentum
There seems to be some confusion about the tax issue here .. many commenters
seem to think that AirBnB hosts are avoiding tax on their income via AirBnB.
That's simply not true, in fact AirBnB reports this income to the IRS and you
are required to fill out a tax form to continue hosting.

The issue at question is a tiny (% wise) hotel tax. In my view AirBnB is not
resisting this tax for its own sake, but rather because it risks classifying
hosts as hotel operators.

AirBnB is a wonderful service, and yes it has flaws, but NYC is caving to the
demands of political interests who know how to play the lobbying game.

~~~
untog
_it risks classifying hosts as hotel operators_

But why is that a risk, or a negative? I'd be interested to know what
obligations hotel operators have. If it's putting in fire extinguishers and
ensuring emergency fire exit access, then, well, sign them up.

~~~
argumentum
It obviously more than just fire regulations. Hotels are probably required to
be inspected on a regular basis, probably required to maintain a presence at
the building, required to have a process to clean every room after each stay.
They probably require a "manager" with "5 years industry experience" (by the
way, from researching the parking industry , even a valet parking outfit needs
to have such a person).

The _fact_ is this would kill AirBnB. It would make it too expensive to
operate as a small host. Someone renting out their apartment to make ends
meet, and very often in the process making lifelong friends with those who
stay, should not in any sense be considered a hotel. It's a totally different
experience for both the host and the guest.

I stayed at one of the earliest AirBnB spots, literally a "tree house" high in
the santa cruz mountains in the host's backyard. It was advertised as such on
the site, and was an amazing experience. We chatted for hours with the host,
who told us all sorts of stories, including that a replica of her treehouse
now sits at the offices of AirBnB. How is that in any way _a hotel_?

~~~
bri3d
In my experience everything in the "Whole Apartment/House" category on AirBnB
is a faux-hotel, and pretty much everything outside of it is demonstrably
different (since if the owner/lessee stays at that point it's for-pay
couchsurfing).

I have no idea about AirBnB's numbers but it would be interesting to see which
is more popular and if they could sustainably eliminate the "whole
apartment/house" faux-hotel segment they've created without going under.

~~~
argumentum
I disagree, in some ways it's even less like a hotel than renting a room. In a
hotel you expect some level of service (a bellman, a receptionist etc). Should
I rent an apartment or home on airbnb I expect the keys and nothing more.

Should it be substandard, or not what I anticipated from the listing, I expect
to be able to report the condition via a review on AirBnB. I don't expect a
refund should I decide to stay there, unless it's specified in the host's
policy on the website.

I don't _expect_ it to always be spic and span, but if a particular place is,
I'd be happy to leave a positive review. I don't _expect_ there to be a new
bar of (crappy) soap in the shower. But that's only the negative.

I don't _expect_ the host to spend hours talking about the local area, or even
giving me a tour. Sometimes that happens on AirBnB, quite often in fact, even
when I rent the whole place. It's never happened at a hotel, though I _expect_
there's a concierge service which can arrange such an experience, except a
professional one at a price.

It's just a different experience, and frankly, I will never stay at a hotel
again (unless AirBnB is banned or has no availability from a particular area).
Yes, I'm taking a risk of a messy place, or bad host, but a risk that's
mitigated not by some governmental regulation (which rarely _ensures_
quality), but rather by the AirBnB community which I've come to trust a lot
more anyway.

~~~
bri3d
Interesting points. I think we fundamentally agree but I've ended up with
lower expectations for hotels than you. What I've gotten from cheap
traveller's motels sounds like precisely what you're describing, which is a
lot like a lot of the AirBnB-for-profit places I've stayed in terms of
service.

I do agree that AirBnB has been generally superior to hotel-hunting and that
the review system is powerful. And I completely agree that as a guest AirBnB
is superior to regulated short-term rentals, especially in the places where
the host goes above-and-beyond to be available and/or provide local tips and
flavor.

I certainly wouldn't advocate that AirBnB get rid of whole-apartment rentals
because they're not a good guest experience - much to the contrary it's always
been great for me. But I think AirBnB are going to be up against the wall soon
legally, at least in major metropolis areas, and eliminating the hotel-style
whole-apartment rentals could be one solution.

------
kfk
The thing is, you have laws and tax laws and, for how unjust they might seem,
a State has to enforce them, full stop.

However, users data. I don't know, there is a thin line between enforcing the
law and not respecting citizens freedom and privacy.

The housing argument, instead, is just ludicrous. Let's put all the hotels in
the city out in the suburbs then.

~~~
buro9
Users in this context are AirBNBs users, those letting their apartments short-
term.

Which means that this is the State's hitlist of tax avoiders.

This is tax enforcement pure and simple, and doesn't seem to be a privacy
issue. I've never heard of a reasonable defence against not paying tax being
"that's my business and not yours", tax enforcement always wins.

~~~
kfk
In Italy tax authorities have grown more and more powerful during the last
years. At some point, they were suggesting checking all personal bank accounts
and expenditures.

Think on the consequences of this.

By the way, in the AirBnB case, you can always have police pretending to rent
flats to get the tax offenders. This would protect privacy and scare
offenders.

~~~
Xylakant
Or - gasp - AirBnB could collect and pay the tax on behalf of the flat owner.
That would protect privacy and eliminate offenders.

~~~
sitkack
But then AirBnB couldn't keep riding the ridiculous gravy train it is on. They
are just front loading their bank account while claiming "this a new emerging
market that we are all trying to figure out." at the expense of all users in
the system.

------
danso
I wonder how much this could've been avoided had Airbnb built in tax
collection into the system? Yes, the pain of doing it by jurisdiction is one
of those unscalable tasks, but you only have to run through it once (i.e. look
up the state tax laws) every few years, or hire a single lawyer/accountant to
do it full time.

I did a Airbnb stay in Rome last year...the gov't there has been trying to
better enforce its tax laws, even to a comedic degree (you, the customer, can
get in trouble for walking out of a gelato shop without a receipt). My host
made very sure I signed the right paperwork after my stay...and I'm guessing
as long as the state gets its share, it has less incentive to crack down on
it.

~~~
twoodfin
As others have speculated in this thread, I think their chief concern was
implicitly acknowledging that their hosts were "hotels" or whatever other
business type is covered by the tax.

For one thing, making this determination jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction is much
harder than simply looking up the hotel tax rate. For another, if Airbnb is
representing a host as a "hotel" by charging the tax, they might be liable if
that host turns out to not follow any of what must be dozens of legal
requirements, again, all of which are going to vary greatly by jurisdiction.

------
geebee
New York and San Francisco tend to have powerful tenant protection laws. I'm
kind of curious - what would the legal situation be if someone rented an
apartment on airbnb and then refused to leave, insisting that he or she is now
a tenant and demanding that the landlord go through standard eviction
proceedings (which I believe requires valid "cause" in San Francisco)? Does
anyone know if this has been litigated?

------
beedogs
This was pretty much bound to happen. Next they'll go after each host for all
sorts of taxes and penalties.

~~~
triplesec
Indeed. The rhetoric says "evil landlords". The practice is more likely the
low-hanging fruit. A bit like zero-tolerance policing: hits the human pawns
and ordinary people the hardest and the actual putative bad guys get a free
pass, as usual.

~~~
jtbigwoo
I hope there's a cost/benefit analysis here where the Attorney General's
office hits those landlords above a certain number of nights. It wouldn't
necessarily make economic sense to go after a guy renting out a single
apartment.

~~~
triplesec
Unfortunately, sense and rationality do not figure highly in the decisions of
the big swinging dicks, especially when they want to get easy wins for
election charts.

------
testing12341234
Does anyone know if an out of state ecommerce site like Amazon is required to
give user data in this manner. Focusing on the state tax issue, it would
appear that these two systems are similar in that taxpayer is required to
declare and remit taxes (but often doesn't).

(obviously the other issues about whether it's even legal to rent out in the
first place is another matter)

~~~
Xylakant
The german tax authorities actually crawl ebay to find commercial sellers
posing as private citizens.

------
danielweber
Is it normal for nydailynews to have editorializing right in the subheadline?

"State is concerned about hotel occupancy taxes and possible evictions by
greedy building owners."

 _Greedy_ is a value judgment with big negative connotations.

~~~
po
_Is it normal for nydailynews to have editorializing right in the
subheadline?_

Yes. Very normal. It's a tabloid.

------
wahsd
This is so damn disgusting!

But it also reveals, and people should realize how much of our society is
actually a facade. This is not liberty or freedom, for you to do with with
your apartment or home how you wish. Next thing you know the government is
going to subpoena Craigslist to hunt down sales taxes for the banged up table
you sold?

This is subversion, perversion, and corruption of public resources and policy
to ensure private profits and gains because corporations really don't compete
in America, they simply rig a system that makes is look like competition. Our
economy is fraud, just like that Western Town at Disney World is a fraud.

Next up, you have to have a tracking device in your car to make sure you pay
your taxes for being a DD and they buy your food and soda in exchange.

~~~
camus
You cant beat the system, unless you have good friends or a lot of money to
lobby the government.

But dont make it about liberty and freedom , that's totally relative.There is
no such thing as absolute "liberty" or "freedom" ,some places are just more
free than others and trust me you are lucky enough to live where you live.

This is not subversion ,this is how the system works. And you'll go with the
flow eventually.

------
lotsofcows
"A drunk European"? Nice, I do like a bit of casual racism.

~~~
jalfresi
European isn't a race. I think you mean xenophobia.

~~~
triplesec
Still it's pretty fair. We drink a lot. We exported a lot of our Puritans to
the New World. For better or worse.

~~~
untog
It's also fair in the sense that Europeans in New York are going to be on
vacation, therefore quite likely to be drunk.

------
sneak
Yes, they just characterized property owners seeking fair market value from
tenants as "robbing the city" (direct quote).

Thanks, guys.

~~~
triplesec
This is Tea-party-level argumentation, by recasting the argument in strawman
terms. It is not the case that "I own therefore I am god". With power comes
responsibility, and here there are people looking for gain without the
commensurate social responsibility.

~~~
sneak
"Social responsibility" is imaginary, because society is imaginary. It can't
be hurt, it doesn't have opinions, and we certainly don't have any
responsibilities to it.

It's an abstraction.

~~~
triplesec
By this argument, from solipsism, I can kill you because you are imaginary to
me. However -- your poor arguments notwithstanding -- I do not wish to, but
instead try to understand how on earth you can think society is imaginary when
it has constructed your roads, schools, constitution, social values. Yes, you
have social values, even if they just consist in denying them. And, oh,
language. You didn't make that up. Nor did your parents... but a whole huge
historical arse of people conjoined, like it or not, into collaborating into
creating (and often destroying) their common world and experience.

~~~
sneak
Men constructed those roads, buildings, and documents - not society.

Or do you contend that "society" is exactly equal to the few dozen men who
authored the US constitution? That simply doesn't make sense.

You may want to consider the fact that this applies to "corporations" as well.
They're legal fictions. They can't be prosecuted, because they can't break
laws, because they can't act. Only individuals can break laws and face
prosecution, because only individuals can actually _do_ things.

~~~
triplesec
Again you're going with the Strawman-ing. Without social compacts and
agreements, and caring for neighbours none of these men would have acted
together. Even in the constitution, that was a few people representing and
being part of a greater polity and social scene. They were the agents of this
society, from whose values they created the DEclaration of independence,
Federalist Papers, constitution, etc. they didn't pluck it out of thin air!
Just as the President and his administration are not acting alone.

You seem to have problems with the idea of abstraction. Learn some maths
perhaps? It's worth it. You're working on an abstaction right now, as someone
has already kindly pointed out.

I also recommend that you Google "theories of collective action", it's an
interesting set of ideas which have had much intellectual currency for a long
time, and still do.

It is not the case that people are rational actors thinking and acting alone.
To understand the world we sense, there has to be collaboration and
sensemaking together. Corporations embody the values of the leaders and or
founders and shareholders, and are held together byt the rituals and practices
of the people there every day.

What are Thanksgiving and Labor Day, if not embodiments of American society?

------
olleicua
This is completely unreasonable. The NSA doing this in secret is one thing but
now they aren't even trying to hide it.

------
dbags
Good. I know that Chesky is trying to pretend that this is about people who
occasionally share their homes, but that's bullshit. There are a lot of people
who are stuck living next to illegal, untaxed hotels because one of their
neighbors AirBNBs their place full time.

I know that a lot of people on this site think that if you add the words 'on
the internet' you should be exempt from all regulation and taxation, but
that's just not how the world works.

I hope that the people who've been profiting from the lack of enforcement are
forced to play on a level playing field.

Disclaimer: my experience with NYC AirBNBs have been incredibly negative,
including people listing with fake names, revealing that they'd given fake
addresses at the last minute (when it was already too late to change plans),
showing deceptive photos, and giving false descriptions.

~~~
laxatives
I'm living in one of these places now and I could not say enough negative
things about the place or AirBNB. Its a mess, most of the rooms are either
filled with beds or used entirely for furniture/tool storage. There were no
shared trashbins until about 4-6 weeks after I had arrived. One of the guests
had a severe breakdown and would spend hours in the middle of the night
rapping or shouting at the top of the lungs, forcing his roommates to move to
the permanent tents in the backyard. Eventually the guy left during one of his
rants and disappeared for a few days, during which the landlord had us avoid
calling the police because he did not want to have them involved. Worst of
all, I feel like none of us are in a position to do anything. I complained
within a few hours of arrival on my first day because the place is a mess, but
AirBNB charges a months rent to leave early on a long term stay and there's
nothing to gain in destroying our relatioships with the landlord. The rating
system also makes it so that taking any action would probably result in an
open flame war so that I'd probably get rejected by future landlords. I'll
probably never use AirBNB again regardless.

~~~
NathanKP
Wow... You guys seem to have had horrible experiences. May I ask what area you
are staying in?

I've stayed at Airbnb places in the Williamsburg, Brooklyn area about ten
times now over the past couple years and my experience has been satisfactory
every time. And I've stayed in the entire range of Airbnb, from very nice
places where I'm basically a roommate for a month and eating meals with my
host, etc, to places where I rarely see the owner and it is obvious they don't
live there but just rent it out, to an old loft that was subdivided into small
rooms and being rented out to four different Airbnb guests at once. The
subdivided loft one was probably the most illegal one I ever stayed in because
it certainly wasn't up to code but it was still very cool and the other guests
were polite and quiet.

The only time I've ever had a bad experience with AirBNB was once when staying
at a place in San Francisco which turned out to be very dirty due to the owner
being out of country and just having his next door neighbor give the keys to
short term renters.

 _The rating system also makes it so that taking any action would probably
result in an open flame war so that I 'd probably get rejected by future
landlords._

I call bullshit on this. Leaving a bad review on a host is not going to get
you rejected by future landlords unless those landlords are also running dumps
and they don't want to get bad reviews, and in that case you probably don't
want to stay there anyway.

The key is to find places that have lots of reviews and read them. If you see
anything amiss don't stay there. If you stick to well reviewed places you will
have a great experience.

If you choose to break new ground and try completely new unreviewed places
(which I have done from time to time) it is more of a gamble. You can also get
some great experiences that way as well, because in general newer, unreviewed
places don't charge as much so as to attract people, while the older very well
reviewed and run places will charge nearly double in most cases compared to
brand new places. Basically, you get what you pay for, as with many other
things in life.

~~~
potatolicious
> _" The key is to find places that have lots of reviews and read them."_

I've done this, I'm rather risk-averse with it comes to AirBnbs, and I've
still run into bad places. I've had two bad experiences in this regard:

\- One was a nice apartment, but I found out the landlord (the word "host" is
both disingenuous and inaccurate for AirBnb and I despise the attempt at
newspeak) lived full time in the room I was renting. She was old and clearly
needed the supplemental income, and I displaced her onto the couch.

This was not made at all clear beforehand, and her place had many positive
reviews. I did _not_ sign up to displace an elderly person from her own bed,
nor did I sign up to deny someone their only source of badly needed income. I
suspect a lot of the positive reviews came from this. There was nothing
otherwise wrong with the apartment.

\- In the other one the bedroom was nice, at a good location, but the landlord
had a dog that pissed and shat all over the common areas. Her place also had
no shortage of good reviews (over a dozen at the time IIRC). In this case also
it was clear she needed the supplemental income, and she was so damn
apologetic about it and spent so much time trying to clean up after the dog
that it was hard to write a negative review. I suspect, again, that this is
why the place was so positively rated.

AirBnb's system is far from foolproof. In both cases I abstained from
reviewing the places - a move I'm still unsure about. One thing I _am_ sure
about is that I resent being put in a position where I have such profound
influence on someone's (badly needed) livelihood.

~~~
NathanKP
I guess the issue then is that its hard to balance trying to be nice to the
person and being honest in your review. Personally I don't have a problem
calling out issues in my reviews because I feel like I owe it to future people
who want to find a place on Airbnb to leave accurate reviews.

But yeah I agree that its not easy to leave a bad review sometimes. Usually
there is a way you can word it that isn't mean or bad, but which lets future
potential guests know what to expect.

~~~
potatolicious
> _" Usually there is a way you can word it that isn't mean or bad, but which
> lets future potential guests know what to expect."_

Sure, and I did actually go back afterwards to see if I was just too thick to
read between the lines. Couldn't find anything definitive, maybe some oblique
hints.

Either way though, judiciously worded faux-reviews seem like they make the
problem worse, not better. It forces the system into a state where only the
power users know WTF is actually going on, and for everyone else the
information is pure noise. You spend less time reading what's on the page and
more time reading what _isn 't_.

Funnily enough, this reminds me of the rental market in NYC, where it's _all_
between-the-lines parsing and the system has invented a whole 'nother
vocabulary to avoid saying what's what (see: "flex" 2-bedrooms).

This is one of the fundamental problems. I have no compunctions about leaving
a hotel a bad review, because I know that they can afford it in the short run,
and that as a stimulus mechanism for them to correct themselves, it's likely
to work. In this case though, I don't think these landlords could afford a bad
review, and they are not in a position where a bad review is a correcting
mechanism - it's more likely to sink them entirely instead.

~~~
NathanKP
I guess in a traditional hotel you don't care about the hotel owner and you
are one of numerous faceless people passing through on a daily basis so
leaving bad reviews is easy. In the Airbnb system not only have you met the
host face to face and in some cases spent some time with them, and what's more
it really isn't even possible to leave an anonymous review because the host
can pretty easily tell who left the review based on the timing of its
appearance.

The thing is Airbnb originates from the couch surfing and hostel ecosystem
which has considerably less controls and reviews but also a guest base who in
general are willing to put up with less than savory conditions. Airbnb kind of
tames that wild west of couch surfing by providing a review system and a more
legitimate system of paying and getting paid. But it doesn't reach the full
legitimacy of a corporate hotel.

Some of my friends ask me whether or not they should try Airbnb, and based on
their personalities I will sometimes tell them no, because I know some of my
friends just can't deal with it and need a real hotel. Others are more
adventurous and I'll tell them to go for it.

For that subset of people who would be willing to try couch surfing on staying
in a hostel Airbnb is like a luxury service and has all the key benefits of
meeting interesting people and living like a local when traveling. But for
people who wouldn't dare try couch surfing and find hostels unsavory then
Airbnb is kind of on the edge. They might like it because it is a step above
couch surfing and hostels, but most of the time they won't like Airbnb either.

~~~
potatolicious
I disagree. Don't take me as a "hurrr corporations" person, I am not - hotels,
even chain hotels, are at the end of the day run by real people. Your local
Best Western is likely run by a family, not suited, faceless corporate
officers.

The difference between reviewing them and reviewing an AirBnb isn't how
faceless they are, it's how much they can afford it, and how much they can
actually use the review as an impetus to improve. That review does no good if
it simply means the business folds.

> _" The thing is Airbnb originates from the couch surfing and hostel
> ecosystem"_

Ehhhh... I'm not sure if I buy that line of argument. Couchsurfing.org
originates from the couch surfing and hostel ecosystems, where the focus is on
experience with the host/guests instead of a plainly quid pro quo exchange.
AirBnb has no real focus on this experiential exchange and instead has always
been very firmly in the "make money on your place" camp.

AirBnb _likes to portray themselves_ as being related to the populist
communities of couch surfing and hostels, but I don't see any evidence that
they were ever in that space. They certainly aren't now. I was initially an
ardent supporter of AirBnb, but their persistently dishonest PR positioning
has really turned me off lately; that includes their persistent and annoying
efforts at positioning themselves as some sort of populist revolution.

When's the last time AirBnb ever marketed themselves as "find a place, meet
cool hosts, go adventuring with your hosts/fellow guests"? Because that's a
fundamentally _core_ part of the hosteling and couch surfing ethos. AFAIK this
has _never_ been an AirBnb angle.

In fact, if you look at the featured properties (curated by AirBnb themselves)
you will see a dramatic dominance in luxury properties, not cute little
bungalows where you're likely to hang out with a cool host. The descriptions
are also always strictly about the property, not the host, and the photographs
are also strictly of the property, not the host.

The host is a small-print detail in the AirBnb model, which makes it almost
entirely antithetical to hosteling or couch surfing.

~~~
NathanKP
Airbnb definitely isn't as host focused as something like couchsurfing.org but
it also definitely isn't as purely property focused as your traditional hotel
chain.

To me the property focused listings are a way for Airbnb to attract people who
are too nervous to try the real couch surfing community by making Airbnb
appear more like a property first hotel system. You can't blame them for this,
because the subset of people who are willing to try this kind of thing if it
was purely host based would be quite a bit smaller.

But the problem is that Airbnb obviously isn't a normal hotel system, and so
some people who go into the experience expecting a hotel experience can be
turned off by it when it doesn't meet their expectations.

On the other hand people like me who enjoy the chance to meet new people enjoy
the social aspect but also like the slightly added safety of the reviews,
pictures, and the payment system. Of course it depends on the host, but I've
had some amazing experiences with hosts during some Airbnb stays: going to
rock concerts, restaurants and bars, eating meals that they've cooked, and of
course just talking to them and learning about their lives. My favorite
experience was getting to stay with a couple who were aerialists for Cirque du
Soleil, and months later returning to NYC to see an amazing opening
performance by their own troupe of performers.

So to me Airbnb seems on the surface to be property based like you said, but
underneath has a strong host ecosystem like couchsurfing.org The problem is
that Airbnb is using properties to attract guests instead of the host
experience. Of course this attracts people who are more demanding about the
property and when the property falls short people are naturally unsatisfied.

~~~
potatolicious
There certainly is a small community on AirBnb that has shades of
Couchsurfing, but I disagree that it's at all a substantial attribute of the
system.

AirBnb has always been angling to be a hotel (or at least Bed & Breakfast)
replacement.

Unfortunately AirBnb doesn't have an API, so I did the best thing I could:
searched for rooms vs. whole-apartments in a way that would actually give me
counts.

In and around Greenwich Village, NYC: 634 whole-apartment listings, 132
private rooms in apartments, 6 shared rooms.

On the Upper East Side: 126, 13, 2

In Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn: 146, 50, 2

In Park Slope, Brooklyn: 559, 196, 5

In Astoria, Queens: 107, 111, 7

Moving away from NYC to SF...

In the Castro: 238, 129, 3

In North Beach: 176, 67, 9

In SOMA: 421, 197, 63

Or another state entirely...

In Capitol Hill, Seattle: 130, 55, 9

In Belltown, Seattle: 96, 16, 6

All of the searches were performed with the default filters, with the
additional filters being only geographic bounds and type of listing. Now, I've
got experience with all of the neighborhoods listed here, and they're all
places where locals actually live. We're not exclusively at, say, Times
Square.

I realize you've had good experiences with AirBnb, but I've argued, and still
maintain in light of this data, that AirBnb is on the surface property-based,
and is also beneath property-based. There seems to be a subcommunity dedicated
to the more Couchsurfing type of experiences, but the data is stacked against
them. AirBnb likes to borrow and quote heavily from this subcommunity in an
effort to appear more populist and grassroots, but in reality the _vast_
majority of listings on AirBnb are dedicated rental properties, not situations
where the host is even present.

~~~
calbear81
Thanks for providing some real data behind the assumptions everyone has been
making. I remember when AirBnB first started, it was definitely much more
about people renting out spare bedrooms, in-laws, etc. but as it became more
popular it was very clear to property owners that they could make more taking
rental units off the market especially in markets with high nightly hotel
rates like New York and San Francisco.

------
camus
To all the people that think Airbnb is great , why should landlords have
tenants so tenants can sublet ?

landlords will end up posting offers on Airbnb directly ,that's what will
happen "en masse" in the future.

And You'll need to pay the Airbnb premium to rent anything.

After all , if i'm a landlord and ask for 2000$ a month for normal tenants , i
can just go on Airbnb and ask for 200 or more an night , so i only need to
rent it for 10 days a month for it to be profitable...

Landlords arent stupid we'll eventually end up in that situation on a large
scale.

~~~
pessimizer
I'm not sure why this isn't the top comment on any of these threads. The only
place that I know of that gives tenants an absolute right to sublet is Chicago
([https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/dcd/gen...](https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/dcd/general/housing/RLTOEnglish.pdf)
see:SUBLEASES) Where this right doesn't exist, the standard tenant agreement
will come to always contain a no AirBnB clause.

AirBnB will be a thing that landlords do. Property management companies are
against it because it automates them out of existence. For landlords, it will
be an unprecedented boon. Eventually people will be bragging about buying a 1
year lease on property like they once bragged about buying property.

This terrifies me, because I think that it will be a fairly irreversible phase
change that solves the massive vacancy rate problem that we've had since the
property bubble inflated. It's like German work sharing applied to housing
(the vacancy rate will be spread more evenly across rental properties over
time.)

~~~
vdaniuk
Why does it terrify you?

~~~
pessimizer
Because rents will double.

