
9-5 Is Out. Try the 1-6 Instead - mprat
https://www.forbes.com/sites/piasilva/2018/01/24/9-5-is-out-try-the-1-6-instead/#e44c5127c87d
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patchorang
I live in a region where winter days are very short. I go to work and it's
dark, I leave work and it's dark. I don't understand why we have decided to go
sit in buildings during daylight hours.

Even with a 40-hour week, I would love if the work day was shifted to allow
one to get sunlight for a few hours each day.

~~~
a1exyz
go outside during lunch mang.

~~~
kawfey
But it's 14 degrees out there.

~~~
colechristensen
If that bothers you, you simply aren't wearing proper clothing.

The difference between a refreshing chill and a harrowing cold can just be an
extra sweater under your coat and a good attitude. As long as it isn't very
windy, it's easy to make 14 comfortable.

~~~
bovermyer
As someone who lives in Minnesota (and has lived in the upper Midwest for the
last 14 years)... no, it's not just "proper clothing ...and a good attitude."

Below a certain temperature, it hurts to be outside for any nontrivial amount
of time. That is a strong disincentive to go outside, no matter how many
sweaters you're wearing.

~~~
cc81
That is pretty rare though. I live in Sweden (not the northern part) and at my
previous job I liked to take walks at lunch and as long as it is not snowing,
raining or being too windy it is pretty nice even at colder temperatures.

Now I'm usually talking about over -10C (14F) but a lot of people seem to
think even that is too cold but just don't wear proper clothing.

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ubertaco
This is predicated on the idea that you're only really productive in the
afternoon, and that the morning is just wasted time.

I'm most productive in the mornings, and my productivity only takes a dive in
the afternoon because that's when all my meetings are.

Turns out, anecdotes about an individual's workflow aren't broadly
generalizable!

~~~
davehtaylor
I agree that the ideas aren't necessarily generalizable, but what if we
shifted to an idea that people's individual schedules reflect when they
specifically are most productive. Someone else who replied said they were most
productive in the morning. Great! Let them have and earlier start time. For
me, I'm completely useless in the morning. Sure, I _can_ be in the office at
8:00am, but you're not getting any meaningful work out of me until late
morning or noon-ish. So let me come in at noon and work until 6:00. And for
someone else who is super productive in the evening hours, if they want to
come in a 8:00pm and work until 2:00am, why not?

I get that there are issues of collaboration or interaction that may be
necessary. But in general, it seems like, as long as your job doesn't depend
on customer interaction or some other constraint, why not let people work a
schedule that suits their lifestyle, and lets them work when they are most
productive?

~~~
nitrogen
_...if they want to come in a 8:00pm and work until 2:00am, why not?_

Part of the "why not" is a deeply ingrained belief in at least American
culture that morning people are just "better" than night people. It's so
ingrained that we mostly forget to talk about it and it's just assumed. "Early
bird catches the worm" and all that.

I once saw a workplace where there were night-person-friendly policies and
schedules. Then one insanely morning person joins and wants to leave at 3:30
every day. Suddenly all of his scheduling preferences were presumed valid, and
all night-person preferences had to be fought for and justified.

So if you want to reach a world with truly optimal flexible schedules, first
you'll need to wrest ownership of the culture from the "morning people are
better" people who currently dominate it.

~~~
dictum
> Then one insanely morning person joins and wants to leave at 3:30 every day.
> Suddenly all of his scheduling preferences were presumed valid

Why wouldn't their preferences be presumed valid? It's as hard for the morning
person to deal with night-person preferences as it's hard for a night person
to deal with morning-person preferences.

(Disclaimer: I'm a morning person and I'm not American.)

~~~
davehtaylor
I think it's because people think "morning person" is the default, and
correct, way of being. And that not being a morning person makes you odd or
lazy. So when someone comes in challenging late-friendly scheduling, they're
assumed to be the correct one, and that the workplace has somehow been in
error by allowing later schedules.

~~~
EpicEng
But morning really is the default; it's our biological default. Most people
wake up in the morning and go to bed at night naturally. Many people have
small children, good luck remaining a night person with a 1 year old in the
house. There are real reasons here, it's not just some arbitrary decision.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Biologically, don't most people wake up at dawn? That doesn't get you to the
office at 7:30 AM in the winter.

That is, our schedule is _not_ a biologically-based schedule. "Morning" (as
defined by our society) is not the biological default.

~~~
EpicEng
Sure, but you're quibbling over an hour here or there. When people use the
term "night person" they don't mean someone who wakes up at e.g. 8 instead of
7, we're talking about pushing back work by many hours, which just isn't
possible for most people without a much shorter work day (I'm ok with that!)

------
adjagu
This all sounds good unless you work a "shift" style schedule. Every single
person I know works what is considered first shift (approximately 6/7/8/9am to
2/3/4/5pm). Some of them have tried second and third shifts, but they always
go back to first shift because "second/third shift don't work for me" they
say.

Now for me I work better at night/early morning. Because of this I have worked
third shift (midnight to 8am) for over 30 years and it works perfectly for me.
If I want to be up while first shift is working I can. Or if I want to sleep
during first shift and be awake for second shift I can do that too. It is nice
to get off of work and do my errands and such without much traffic or that
many people in stores. I get my errands done faster which gives me more free
time.

Third shift has the advantage that most of the population is asleep when I am
working. So when I drive into work at night the roads are mostly empty and
when I leave work in the morning the morning rush traffic is moving in the
opposite direction that I am.

Another advantage of third shift is I only spend 20 minutes driving to work
and 20 minutes driving home from work each day. All the first shift people I
know spend at least double that in traffic each day because dang near everyone
works first shift.

~~~
meesterdude
neat! I'm often a nightowl myself, and often reflect on how life would be
different if we spread out the working hours for people more - so most places
would be 24-hour, and roads wouldn't be so packed.

~~~
adjagu
It would be different if each shift only contained 1/3 of the workforce at a
time. Rush hour(s) should contain much less traffic volume this way (since now
there are what, 3 of them per day?). Overall there would be a slight increase
in continuous traffic volume (as in at any given time of the day/night more
people would be out and about).

I do wonder if cities could benefit from a 24 hour schedule. Sure, during
first shift the cities near me are bustling with people and activity. Second
shift there are still people about and things to do, but after 8pm or so most
cities around here start to look barren. Third shift. Shoot, it's me, the
police, the newspaper delivery drivers and pretty much no one else.

------
inanutshellus
Sounds like #NoKids rather than #SpainBrain.

I'm sure it sounds like I'm being pithy, but you fall into line when your kids
get home at 4 and you want to spend time with them before they go to bed at 8.

Maybe his point stands in some sense, but once you add kids into the mix it
quickly becomes "9-5" again or "burning the candle at both ends."

~~~
Apocryphon
There's also an argument that's been made that kids go to school too early in
the day and school start time should be postponed to later in the morning,
because they need more hours of sleep.

~~~
crispyambulance
They need a solid 6-8 hours of sleep, like other humans.

I suspect the problem is that teens just stay awake FAR LONGER than is
advisable perhaps to maximize their free unstructured time at night and to
minimize the crushing grind of the mornings?

I expect that if the school start time was shifted to 9am, the kids would just
stay up until 5AM instead of only 3AM.

~~~
lazyasciiart
Most teenagers aren't staying awake til 3am, it turns out. And you can test
your theory in several ways - either by checking American teenager sleep
habits against those in other countries where school does start later (e.g
Australia -
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941425/figure/...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941425/figure/F2/)),
or by looking for the existing studies that have been done on changing school
times (e.g this one in Norway
[https://teensneedsleep.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/school-
st...](https://teensneedsleep.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/school-start-time-
sleepiness-and-functioning-in-norwegian-adolescents.pdf))

Summary: your theory doesn't appear to be supported by data.

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fogzen
Article should be titled “Try being a wealthy business owner to work less.”
Most people don’t have the luxury of choosing their hours and only working 4
hours a day, remotely from a cafe or hotel. It’s not as if everyone is getting
up and going to work for 8 hours because they want to...

~~~
savanaly
Obviously it is implied that this article is giving advice for people who set
their own schedule and are wondering about how to move time around to feel
more productive. Not for people who have their schedule strictly set for them
by their employer. You dont have to be a wealthy business owner to fall into
the former camp though.

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shadowtree
It's absolutely great.

Unless you start having kids. Or work in an area where you need to meet
customers face to face. Or both.

Just like working from Bali, working from a van, working from a plane, etc.

If you're a SINK or a DINK, go for it, 100%.

~~~
eindiran
What do "SINK" and "DINK" mean?

~~~
bproven
single income no kids; dual income no kids

~~~
boopk
my life goal is dink

~~~
illegalsmile
if you will it, it is no dream

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codingdave
Working efficiently at your peak working time makes sense. Assuming everyone
else shares that same peak working time does not. You either need to set up an
organizations where all collaboration can happen via async mechanisms
(possible, but difficult)... or you need to have some times where people's
work overlaps enough to have discussions and meetings.

I've worked in remote jobs where, in general, people worked whenever they
wanted, and we'd get on phone calls at agreed upon times if needed. I've also
worked in jobs where we set aside a 2 hour window each day for everyone to be
there, not caring if that window was the beginning, middle, or end of your
day. Both of those scenarios felt more productive than "9-5".

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nwsm
God Forbes' website is awful

~~~
rhombocombus
It is genuinely terrible. I enjoy a lot of their content, but that website is
malignant.

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didibus
Yes! A thousand times yes!

I'd also be okay starting at a 1-9 if people are against the idea of working
less hours per day.

Now this would only work if everything adapted. Schools, shops, banks, would
all need to shift their hours.

Finally we could enjoy daylight. Imagine spending time outside in the sun with
your kids and wife during the day!! Everyday!

Imagine not being too tired after your hard day of work to spend quality time
with your family, hangout with friends, so household chores, work on that
hobby project of yours, exercise!

I don't think its feasible without a King or dictator forcing this change
though. I hope we did, the idea of working on the hours that the sun is out is
old, everyone works indoors now.

Also, its difficult to gage the health and mental health impact of how little
less sunshine we now consume compared to days past when we were outside a lot
more during daylight times.

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JeanMarcS
I work the over way (west side of the Atlantic, most clients in Europe). So I
get up, work until lunchtime, and then my 5 hours working day is other if I
want.

Of course it’s not everyday I don’t work in the afternoon, but it’s nice that
you can spend the afternoon with the kids if you want.

Ok, sometimes duty calls in the middle of my night (last Tuesday I was woke up
at 3am for an emergency on a client server) but in the 3 years I’ve been
living this side of the ocean, it happened 7 or 8 tiles max.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
I once got woken up by a phone call from Europe at 4 AM. The first thing I had
to do was remember an 8-digit hex number. It took a bit...

~~~
el_benhameen
I would've thought it would take 32 bits.

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angarg12
I'm a Spaniard and I could never do that.

In order to be able to work like that you need a very specific set of
circumstances, probably first of all being self-employed.

Since I work by contract for a company, and they force me to put 8 hours a
day, I can't do that. However, it is true that I am the most productive in the
afternoon. That is why I try to enter and leave work as early as possible, so
that I can spend those sweet afternoon hours being productive.

~~~
walshemj
Depends if your hourly paid or salaried - in theory salaried jobs its up to
you to decide how and when you work within reason.

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everdev
These ideas are interesting but it seems to suggest that if you work less you
don't need as many breaks. Motivation for me comes in waves. When I'm inspired
I can easily work 12-16 hours with just bathroom breaks. But, I can't induce
those experiences, they just come.

My fear of a 5 hour day would be that I'd be running at 80% for 5 hours
instead of 80% for 8 hours.

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rock8y
I come in at around 11 45 every day and work until 7 with couple of 15 minute
breaks for ping pong. No loss in productivity and extremely satisfied with
commute(DC metro). But I make sure, I check my emails and respond at around
930 am, if some one needs me.

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sekou
As many have said, there's more to this than just one type or the other. It
might be worth considering taking a more intentional look at organizing teams
around similar circadian rhythms. Some of the most productive work I've done
was with a team that really started gaining momentum in the afternoons and
sometimes into the evenings. I think many who deviate far from the "norm"
self-select into late-night service industry positions. There are a lot of
misconceptions around "early birds" or "late workers" that could be explained
by varying sleeping patterns.

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s73ver_
I'm 1000% in favor of spending fewer hours at work, and making those hours
that are spent at work count more. However, I'm guessing that the 1-6 was for
the bosses, and not for the workers.

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rhombocombus
I have felt this way for a long time about work, but my schedule demands
something close to an 8 hour day. So to stay fresh, I take walks, small
breaks, and try and avoid social media, which makes my desk time immensely
more productive, oftentimes moreso than if I were to sit and grind for the
entire workday.

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dboreham
Nice idea but probably not written by someone who writes code or debugs for a
living. Activities that imho benefit from long stretches of deep focus. Now
perhaps you could work like that -- 16h sessions -- for three days then
snowboard for the remainder of the week. That might work.

~~~
mnm1
I write code and debug for a living and often work similarly. I even force
myself to take a break every hour, deep concentration or not. Necessity makes
amazing things happen. I definitely do not do more than 8 hour sessions, ever,
and never without multiple breaks anymore. It works out fine, a little slower
than before but that's mainly due to lack of communication and has nothing to
do with hours worked.

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el_benhameen
I'm most productive in the early morning and late evening. The mid-afternoon
is my least productive time, perhaps because of lunch or because I live in a
sunny area and I'd like to take advantage of the sunshine in the afternoon. I
don't mind working 8 hours in a day, but I'd rather do something like the
inverse of this person's schedule and work 7 to 11, both AM and PM.

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apapli
Spending your day in a sales role can be very similar to this. After losing
time in client meetings, you often have only 5 hours left in the day to get
your things done (frequently less than half that amount).

I have certainly worked my fair share of > 40 hour weeks, but it’s safe to say
you are forced to learn a way to be very efficient when you don’t have all day
available to work.

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amelius
This might be a fitting work schedule for people with an inverted cortisol
production profile. Perhaps have some tests done before wanting this. You
could be in a stressed-out state.

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melq
Shortening the work day seems like a great idea. Making everyone work the same
hours seems like a terrible one. Especially the proposed 1-6. What if you have
kids?

