
The Original EPCOT Project: Walt Disney's prototype community - singold
https://sites.google.com/site/theoriginalepcot/the-florida-project
======
daviding
The over-bearing central planning feel to this at first reminded me of a
government and economy system that ol' Walt was probably diametrically opposed
to. But then I realized it's just a futurist attempt at the Company Town [1]
concept again.

Having lived near somewhere like Poundbury [2] before, it's probably no
accident that the place felt like an empty theme park. While the architecture
is pretty there is something soulless about the place.

As mentioned in the article, he was only a couple of months before death by
lung cancer, and I think that much of the vision must have been his desire to
leave some ideas bigger than rides and cartoons. I don't think the current
white picket fenced retired millionaires town of Celebration is what he had in
mind at all.

EDIT: I'm getting mixed up between 'Celebration' and the newer 'Golden Oaks'
Disney development. Golden Oaks looks like physical VR for the wealthy. [3]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poundbury](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poundbury)

[3] [http://www.disneygoldenoak.com/](http://www.disneygoldenoak.com/)

~~~
hitekker
Completely unrelated:
[http://www.disneygoldenoak.com/video/](http://www.disneygoldenoak.com/video/)
is one of the whitest videos I've ever seen that's not a parody:

~~~
btgeekboy
Homes start at just $2m!

Which is even more than it sounds like considering that the Orlando-area real
estate market is quite cheap compared to other parts of the country.

~~~
joezydeco
Disney must believe that proximity to the park (as in, _right next door_ )
adds some value to the real estate.

~~~
noonespecial
Well, sure. Just look what it does to the price of a hot dog on the other side
of the gates. That's some Disney magic for ya right there.

------
Kinnard
This type of effort has a long tradition in the United States going back to
many of the original colonies which were founded to be utopias based on the
religious beliefs of the founding groups. A 'city on a hill' so to speak.

I think this has much of it's roots in the European Renaissance and the
European Reformation. But the roots go farther back than that. Pythagoreans
attemtped to form an ideal society and the ancient Israelites left Egypt to
build a new ideal, sanctified society in the Land of Canaan.

You can see the fruits of this all over America, in Zionism, and in the Tech
community which envisions Silicon Valley as an Island governed by the future
:). Humans just want a nice place to live? Or maybe the end result of history
really will be a Utopia? ;)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_upon_a_Hill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_upon_a_Hill)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Harmony,_Indiana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Harmony,_Indiana)
[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism)
[4]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz)

~~~
Animats
_" in the Tech community which envisions Silicon Valley as an Island governed
by the future..."_

We're not seeing much innovation in housing from the SF tech community. Mostly
it's about summoning servants with your phone - Uber, DoorDash, Eat24,
HomeJoy, Pure.

~~~
Agustus
There is no opportunity for innovation in SF, there is so much anti-owner
pushes, that owners are holding on until the ROI makes it.

~~~
eru
Could you please explain what you mean?

~~~
endlessvoid94
Agustus is referring to the nearly complete suffocation the SF housing
situation currently finds itself within.

Here's a data-driven post about it: [https://medium.com/@sirwart/the-future-
of-housing-in-san-fra...](https://medium.com/@sirwart/the-future-of-housing-
in-san-francisco-a5d300558a73)

------
api
I love mid-century futurism. While they did get many things wrong, that's
inevitable when you have big ideas and put them forward fearlessly. Whenever I
read anything from that era in science, art, architecture, even philosophy, I
am often struck by the boldness and fearlessness of it compared to the
plodding baby-steps of today. Even today's most "radical" ideas like
transhumanism, etc., are really just meek little echoes of ideas from that
era.

The bold often seem foolish in retrospect when compared to the intellectually
timid, since the latter get to avoid being wrong by simply not doing much of
anything.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
I don't see how they were going to get underground roadways to work two levels
deep with the Florida water table and rainfall being what it is. Even if they
could keep the water out the tunnels would be perpetually dank and unpleasant.

~~~
Johnny555
Probably the same way they built the "underground" tunnels beneath all of the
Magic Kingdom -- build ground level "tunnels" and build up the ground on top
of them.

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kayman
It's pretty neat to see Walt's big dreams. In implementation, I'm sure there'd
be lot of little issues. For example, if everyone should have a job, where
will the retired people go as they retire?

What about injured people or people with disabilities.

How will people behave if they don't own anything? Will they care about the
place the same.

Regardless, a great visionary.

------
davnicwil
I read the article quite rapidly so apologies if this is mentioned, but Disney
(the company) actually did launch a planned community, I think it's
essentially town-sized, called Celebration. It's near to Disney world in
Florida.

I visited it about 15 years ago when I believe it was still relatively new. No
idea how it turned out, a brief google search reveals it still exists but I
can't find anything remarkable reported about it.

Seems like a pretty interesting thing though, there must be some stories to
tell. If anybody knows of anything, books or articles etc, I'd really
appreciate being pointed at them.

~~~
cookiecaper
Celebration definitely still exists and it's one of the priciest areas in the
Orlando metro. It has a very unique style and is really a _beautiful_ town.

There are definite Disney-ish touches, like background music and theme-park-
like maps of the area in the downtown, and the locals are definitely Disney
fans so you'll see a lot of homes decked out with Mickey Mouse stuff, but for
the most part you can't really see the man behind the curtain. Someone could
visit Celebration and never know Disney was involved.

Celebration is _nothing_ like what Epcot was planned to be. Celebration is
your typical new "post-suburban" suburban development with a walkable
downtown, apartments above shops, etc., and more classical suburban homes
encircling the downtown. Those things have been springing up all over the
place over the last 2 decades. Celebration may have been one of the first.

Source: live right by Celebration, kid used to go to school there

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lucio
How much of the DW success is related to the fact that they have municipal
jurisdiction over the land, meaning no politic interfering on the park
development?

~~~
cookiecaper
Disney and the other big theme parks basically own Orlando. Before they came
here, it was a podunk. I don't think they would've gotten much interference
from Orlando.

~~~
dandrews
Podunk? Perhaps, but it was already well positioned for growth. I-4 (runs
NE/SW through the state) was yanked over specifically to run through town, and
we had that lovely SAC base with the 12,000 foot twin runways that was
recently made into a civilian airport. UCF had just been chartered, which has
become the second largest university in the country.

Disney's a big deal if course - our biggest employer after all - but it's not
the whole story here.

------
Isamu
Thank you! I have been wanting to see this EPCOT film again for many years. I
saw an excerpt of it at the Walt Disney Story in Disney World in the 70's, and
was disappointed at what they made of Epcot later.

It's funny, after Walt died it seemed nobody really had the vision to drive
the original EPCOT plan forward, or they lacked the ability Walt had to sell
the project to the difference sources of financing they needed, and perhaps
were unable to sell the project to the rest of the Disney organization.

In the end Walt would have had to create a new organization that was prepared
to build his vision of a new futuristic community. As it was, the existing
Disney organizations were not able to do something so far beyond what they
were currently doing.

When Epcot was built, the vision of the original EPCOT was swept away ... I
felt like I was trying to convince people that this was not at all what Walt
envisioned. But of course I was a young kid and nobody listened to me.

------
brianchesky
This was not a "company town" in the way that is being referenced in the
comments. It was quite literally a prototype community where residents would
only live for about a year. It was primarily funded by other companies to
showcase their products and develop R&D labs. Walt's stated goal was to
inspire cities around the world to develop their urban centers in this model.
Before he died, he said, "I don't believe there's a challenge anywhere in the
world that's more important to people everywhere than finding solutions to the
problems of our cities." Whether this design would have succeeded is the
subject of much debate, though there were many elements that were radical in
their time (wedway people mover, airport of the future with oval runway,
tiered transportation levels).

~~~
Johnny555
Of course, the problems you solve for a transient resident that's required to
be employed (by the company that runs the town) and is only going to spend one
year of his/her life there are _much_ different than the problems a real-world
city faces.

It's easy to make a town that's livable for those that are relatively affluent
_and_ relatively young.

------
dang
Url changed from [http://www.messynessychic.com/2014/06/26/that-time-walt-
disn...](http://www.messynessychic.com/2014/06/26/that-time-walt-disney-
bought-his-own-autonomous-utopian-city-of-the-future/), which points to this.

