

China’s train wreck  - cwan
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/chinas-train-wreck/2011/04/21/AFqjRWRE_story.html

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mousa
I don't know how well more trains would work in America, but I was not
impressed at all by his arguments. No countries make a direct profit on their
transportation systems. He also throws in corruption which seems like a
separate issue.

I can likewise give some anecdotal evidence that whenever I rode trains in
China they were fast, convenient, cheaper than buses for longer distances, and
most importantly, completely packed with people who weren't burdening the
roads.

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scottbruin
The hidden premise in arguments similar to the one the author seems to be
getting at is that transporation infrastructure should be financially self-
sustaining.

We don't expect that our roads pay for themselves, so why should our trains?

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orijing
Exactly. Transportation infrastructure produces benefits far beyond the direct
benefit for those who choose to use the system. There are environmental
benefits, congestion benefits (reduced road usage), convenience benefits, etc.

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Derbasti
Yeah, comparing poor young chinese workers who can barely afford a bus ticket
to the average US citizen makes a whole lot of sense. That last paragraph
really did not fit with the rest of the article.

Besides, Europe provides plenty of examples of pretty healthy railway systems.

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5l
Not only that, but his comparison of bus tickets to high-speed rail tickets is
absurd. In the UK it can cost me anything from £20-70 return London to
Edinburgh by bus for example. By regular-speed train without a railcard, it's
gonna be about £120, so at least twice as expensive. And you can guarantee if
we ever get around to high-speed, it wont be as 'cheap' as £120.

$5.40 => $9 is a pretty good deal then I'd say for bus to high-speed rail. OF
COURSE it's gonna be more expensive, and I'm amazed that the price
differential isn't even higher.

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kposehn
Profitability in private railways is everywhere - it just isn't with large
"public service" passenger railways.

Freight railroading is where the money is at and that is why every single
majorly successful railway company focuses on just that.

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melling
Next year China will have more high-speed rail than the rest of the world
combined. The US really needs to built at least one route(200mph). It's really
embarrassing that we could fall so far behind. D.C. to NYC in 1hr, with a 5
minute stop in Philly?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Maglev_Train>

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vorg
The high-speed trains in China wait for about 60 seconds at each stop.

How many times a station gets stopped at varies, the busy stations by most
trains, other stations maybe only twice a day. There's often a handful of
direct routes every day. All this means the scheduling of stops must be
precise, especially on longer route, e.g the 4-hr Wuhan-Guangzhou line.

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jtchang
This is silly. There will always be things that should be built not because
they make financial sense but because they serve the greater good.

Roads, railway, transporters, you name it.

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protomyth
A side question on rail: Has any municipality in the US given property tax
waivers / discounts to get businesses to cluster around rail stops or are
almost all stops after the fact?

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sliverstorm
Why is he looking at China? I thought Japan's trains were the exemplary high-
speed rail model for the world. I had thought Japan's railways were what
inspired the high-speed rail project in CA.

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jrockway
_Why is he looking at China?_

Well, China's system is a failure, and he doesn't want the US to build trains,
so ... it makes sense.

But something you have to keep in mind is the size of Japan versus the size of
China and the US. The most popular Shinkansen route, Tokyo<->Osaka, is about
the same distance between Chicago and St. Louis: a 6 hour conventional train
ride, a 5 hour drive, or ... a 30 minute flight. So high-speed rail is kind of
a hard sell: a 5 hour drive is not that long, and a 30 minute flight is worth
the cost if you really need to be there fast. The middle ground, a 2 hour
train ride, is not really that compelling, and a ticket would probably cost as
much as flying. (The first time I took the Shinkansen, I had a little sticker
shock. $200 to ride a train!?)

Rail does make sense for Tokyo to Osaka, though, because the airport in Tokyo
is so far away from the city center. It's at least an hour and a half between
Tokyo Station and Narita, and then you need to be there in time to navigate
the terminal and board 30 minutes before departure. Then you have to do the
same thing on the other end. So flying is a net loss between Tokyo and Osaka,
which is why the Shinkansen is so successful. Lots of demand, and it's the
quickest way to go.

But in the US, the places where high-speed rail will work already have high-
speed rail. The other popular city pairs are too far apart -- New York to LA
is popular, but that's going to be an awfully long train ride.

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5l
But can you turn up 5 minutes before your flight and just hop on?

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jrockway
Mainline flights? Nope. But there are various airlines that let you do this.

One time, I was in Seattle and needed to be in Portland. I could have taken
the train, but the schedule was very inconvenient. I then discovered SeaPort
airlines, which operates single-engine aircraft out of Boeing field and flies
to PDX. It was $80. I showed up 20 minutes before the flight. The check-in
agent greeted me by name (since I was the only person on that flight), and we
walked out onto the tarmac and into the plane. No baggage X-ray. No TSA. No
metal detectors. I don't think I even showed anyone ID!

I believe US Airways operates a similar service out of LGA, although they
probably have more security since their planes are more expensive and seat
more than 12 people. But it can definitely be done, and it's a lot cheaper
than a high-speed rail line that nobody is going to ride.

Look, I'm the biggest railfan there is. But in a country where the most of the
major cities are very far apart, and where everyone owns a car and pays for
the interstate system, high speed rail is a hard sell. I'm completely in favor
of it, but I expect it to be a gift from the government: it will never pay for
itself, and most people won't even think to use it.

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edtechre
That was utterly pointless. As China becomes the largest economy in the world,
and its standard of living continues to rise, more Chinese will be able to
afford to take high speed trains.

Meanwhile, the standard of living in the US continues to drop. And there are
no high speed trains for Americans to take.

Another quality propaganda piece from TWP.

