
Hacker School is now the Recurse Center - vitno
https://www.recurse.com/blog/77-hacker-school-is-now-the-recurse-center
======
dmazin
I love Hacker School (the entity, not the name) but Recurse Center is a
strange choice. "Recurse" does not bring to mind the word "recursion" by
itself, and while "School" is a meaningful word, "Center" isn't. It has no
umph as a phrase. The reason for the change is completely sound, but the new
name is just a little strange to me.

~~~
nicholasjbs
We were mainly torn between choosing a name that was completely meaningless
and one that was mostly meaningless, but which had some connotations to
programming. We opted to do the latter. All the meaningful, descriptive names
we could come up with -- like "Programming Retreat" \-- are too generic and/or
have the same problems as "Hacker School." (We also wanted to make sure we
could get the .com, and we wanted to avoid making up completely new words.)

That is to say: We expect that for almost everyone hearing it for the first
time, "the Recurse Center" will be meaningless. That sounds like a bad place
to be in, however, it's a _much_ better than where we were before. Almost
everyone who heard "Hacker School" for the first time had to be convinced that
one or both of the words didn't mean what they thought it did in this context.

Today is day 0. Our job now is to take these largely empty words (Recurse
Center) and imbue them with our values and purpose.

Glad to hear you like who we are/what we do, regardless :)

~~~
dmazin
Thank you for the reply!

I agree that meaningless phrases are good for brands, and much better than
ones with baggage (as you say, in that regard Hacker School can't get much
worse). And I believe that you will be able to properly add meaning to
"Recurse Center."

My point with my "umph" comment was that "School" refers to an
object/category, while "Center" refers to a blank entity, it's kind of a dead
word (it also has a bit of a connotation of something formal and boring, like
a business office center). I believe we like references to objects, not
placeholders - "Sears Tower" and "Nokia Theatre" both sound better than
"Staples Center." But I'm not offering advice, I'm just curious about your
process. Did y'all consider things other than "Center"?

~~~
nicholasjbs
Yes, we considered a few others. For instance, we thought about "retreat" but
decided against it because it felt too limited, and we considered "institute"
but worried it would come off as pretentious.

Center is definitely kind of a "dead" word, but we'd rather err on the side of
too little meaning rather than too much given our past mistakes :) (We also
like the acronym "RC" more than "RR" or "RI.")

Thanks for the thoughtful comments!

~~~
JoshTriplett
> we considered "institute" but worried it would come off as pretentious.

Mildly so, but "Recurse Institute" still sounds awesome. :)

~~~
computerex
Heck yes, anything but "center". Even "academy". Anything.

------
Karunamon
_While catchy, “Hacker School” has always been an actively bad name for us.
Both words are problematic and misleading. “Hacker” is bad because so much of
the world thinks of hackers as computer criminals and not clever programmers,
which is the meaning we intended. And even for many people familiar with our
use of the word, “hacker” can feel exclusionary. (“Hacker” was also not
exactly helpful to the roughly 30% of each batch who cross the U.S. border to
get here.)_

I present this as Exhibit A in the reason why words are important. Think about
this the next time you give someone ad-populum crap for correcting someone
that misuses "hacker".

~~~
Someone1234
Also present this as Exhibit A for how much of a knuckle dragger most border
agents are. You really do have to pick your words carefully with them as most
of their job is "gut instinct" and most aren't really that well educated or
informed (even as much as knowing all of the countries).

~~~
briandear
I certainly can't speak for everyone's experience with the border officials,
however I'm sure that their jargon might create some difficulties for you.

As far as "knowing all the countries," I've been across some borders where
I've had to explain their own visas to them. For example, the type of visa and
residence permit I had while I lived in China (specifically relating to multi-
entry vs. single entry.) I've been held up at the border crossing leaving
Korea for Japan because they assumed I needed a "release letter," which in
fact wasn't the case; discovered only after 2 hours of being detained while
they contacted my former employer. Crossing into Mexico, specifically at the
inland military checkpoints, I've also have had occasional difficulties,
resulting in a required "donation" to prevent my fully loaded car from being
searched down to the axles. (I have family in Guadalajara and Texas, so I've
made that drive frequently.)

I don't care if a border official knows Zaire from Angola -- just as long as
they know the rules and regulations and apply them systematically to visitors.

Never a problem when I've gone to Serbia, but given their problems with
cybercriminals, if I told the border guard that I was there to hang out with
computer hackers, I suspect I'd have a rough time.

My point is that this knee-jerk insulting of US border agents is childish. You
don't know "most" of them, so you have no basis for your statement. As far not
being well educated, a bachelors degree in law enforcement, criminal justice,
political science or accounting is generally required for UCIS agents, among
other things. The fact is that you just don't like them for whatever reason,
an opinion to which you are entitled, but don't mistake your bias for actual
fact.

Spend some time crossing borders around the world, especially in former Soviet
countries, East Asia, Latin America, then come back and make the claim that US
border agents are somehow less intelligent than you would like. Try border
crossings in Lebanon or Saudi Arabia. Cross the border from Serbia into Kosovo
as a non-Serbian/Kosovar citizen. The Chinese border can be loads of fun,
especially at a land crossing. The UK can be especially rough depending on
your nationality, though admittedly, I've always just sailed through the line.

As far as the school's name change, the comment about 30% of their attendees
cross the border to go there. Is there any data or facts regarding the "hard
time" those people had? Just saying it was "difficult" doesn't really explain
how it was difficult. Where entries denied based exclusively that they were
attending Hacker School? I'm not sure what the "difficulty" actually was. And
since Hacker School isn't an actual SEVP educational institution that can
sponsor student visas, then that would mean they have students studying as
part of their organization on tourist visas, which is against the rules of the
tourist visa. It also is against the rules of the Visa Waiver Program to
enroll in any kind of educational institution -- degree granting or not.

So that begs the question: where the problems with immigration because
visitors where entering the country with a purpose inconsistent with their
visa? I think that explains more than the institutions name. However, if
Hacker School is representing itself as a self-improvement center, then of
course a tourist visa would work, however that wouldn't explain the border
problems since a tourist visa does not require a declared itinerary -- so
Hacker School would never be a required part of the border entry formalities.

I'm wondering what legal basis is being used for the attendee's visas. If it's
a job training program, then that is considered "vocational" training and that
requires an "M" visa. Short "recreational" study is permitted under a B
(tourist) visa, however Hacker School isn't recreational. Their compensation
is from recruiting employees, which puts it into a different category than
taking a yoga class.

I personally think what HS does is great and I support them, but I do think
that international attendees ought to be very, very careful when it comes to
the visas. Misrepresenting or having a stay inconsistent with your visa status
can result in a permanent entry ban if caught. The smart move for Hacker
School is to get certified by Homeland Security, then they'll be able to
sponsor student visas. If anyone's interested in what schools are legal,
here's a link: [http://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/school-
search?field_school_n...](http://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/school-
search?field_school_name_value=Recurse&field_location_city_value=&field_location_state_value=All&field_education_level_value=All)

~~~
nandemo
I agree with you, I don't feel that US border agents are uneducated or stupid.
But in my experience, they are often rude/unpleasant/hostile. I've traveled to
and transited via Japan, Canada and several European countries and never faced
anything like it.

> tourist visa does not require a declared itinerary

FWIW, I've recently applied for a visitor visa (B1/B2) and was asked for an
itinerary:

"Your travel itinerary and/or other explanation about your planned trip."

[http://www.ustraveldocs.com/jp/jp-niv-
typeb1b2.asp](http://www.ustraveldocs.com/jp/jp-niv-typeb1b2.asp)

And you need to get interviewed at the consulate. Now that I have a multi-
entry visa I might be able to enter with less hassle, but I could still be
asked for such details at the border.

~~~
nandemo
To clarify, I believe you could still present an itinerary (cities, hotels,
etc) without volunteering that you're attending something that looks like
classes at some place that sounds like a school.

------
wyc
Frankly, I'm still confused about what "recurse center" means even though I
know what recursion is. I wonder what it will first mean to people outside of
industry. I also can't unsee the substring "curse center". :/

Slightly off-topic: How would someone structure a study to predict the
effectiveness of a rebranding?

~~~
mtviewdave
In my technical writing class in college, the professor made the point that
"recursion" is based on the verb "to recur", and that "to recurse" means "to
curse again".

~~~
herge
> "to recurse" means "to curse again"

If that doesn't sound like programming, I don't know what does.

------
krat0sprakhar
Quick anecdote: A close friend of mine had recently graduated college and
after a series of interviews got in Hacker School. When he went for the visa
interview (in India), the officer got really wary of him on learning that he's
going to US, right after graduating of college, with no job to a place called
"Hacker School". He had open the website and spend a long time in explaining
him in what HS is about. Quite expectedly, he was denied the visa.

~~~
majke
I had very similar experience, but was able to convince the immigration
officer that Hacker School has nothing to do with Hackers nor Schools (which
require F1 visas). That was a fun experience and added to the charm of the
original name :)

~~~
briandear
Actually, Hacker School is vocational and requires an "M" visa. But, Hacker
School isn't a Student and Exchange Visitor Program certified school. So they
can't sponsor visas. Which would explain exactly why denials would be
happening. The purpose of the stay is "study" but the visa type is "tourist."
That's the reason for rejections. It isn't the school name that creates the
problem, it's the mismatched purpose of trip/visa type.

I'm not sure why you'd be convincing the Immigration Officer of anything,
assuming you were at the port of entry with a valid visa. If you were trying
to get the visa, then that would be a Consular Officer. There's a lot more
that goes into visa issuance than the name "Hacker School." One of the big
things would be proof of adequate funds plus a compelling reason to return
home. Essentially, you have to convince the consular officer that you don't
intend to violate your visa.

~~~
nicholasjbs
"Actually, Hacker School is vocational and requires an "M" visa."

This is not true. See my response elsewhere on HN
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9265755](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9265755)),
but the tl;dr is: We've confirmed with immigration lawyers that it's perfectly
legitimate for people to come on visitor visas. A couple of people have had
their visa requests denied (not because of anything specific to us but because
of concerns that they would stay beyond 90 days), but no one has been rejected
at the border, though some people have had a long and hard time explaining
what "hacker" means to the border guards.

~~~
briandear
My question is why would they even mention "hacker?"

------
jordigh
This saddens me because it seemed like a good opportunity for the mainstream
media to reacquire the good definition of "hacker". I had started to see
newspaper articles that used the good meaning.

Cultural inertia on terminology can change, and in the hacker case, I think it
should. We certainly rarely say "negro" nowadays in the US except in
historical contexts. I'm saddened that Hacker School gave up on the language.

~~~
nostrademons
A for-profit company's name isn't really the right venue for that. No matter
how successful Hacker School is, it's unlikely that a significant enough
fraction of the population will have positive personal associations with it to
alter their emotional perception. Newspaper articles don't count, generally;
they reflect the popular mood more than they influence it.

The way to reclaim "hacker" is to use it and adopt it, personally, in 1-on-1
social conversation. Preferably with non-techies who you are close to. That
way people's positives associations with you rub off on the terms that you use
to describe yourself. We don't use "negro" these days because most of us know
and have positive associations with black people in social contexts; that
makes its old connotation of inferiority incongruent with our personal
experience. Similarly, the LGTBQA movement is succeeding because a large
number of people now realize they have friends and neighbors who are gay, and
it's much harder to cast that as deviant behavior when you personally know
good people who self-identify as gay.

------
curo
My brain jumped to "curse" and "legal recourse," not "recursion." And I'm a
software developer. Hacker School seems fine. I think you guys are over
thinking it.

~~~
craigmccaskill
As they mentioned in the post, the name was clearly causing problems for their
students. Prospective, current and alum.

~~~
briandear
The students were creating their own problem. A tourist visa doesn't require
an itinerary. Hacker School isn't eligible to sponsor student visas. So, I
wonder, what was the problem?

------
stared
While the word "school" makes me shiver, "hacker" exactly cancels it. And I
read it as "school, made by/for hackers". So pretty much self-explanatory; at
least for potential applicants and mentors.

(Speaking as a foreigner) I do understand that immigration office will be
suspicious (as it sounds for them as a "terrorist camp"), but well, it can be
done on tourist visa AND its official name can different (e.g. "programmer
school"... or even "recurse center").

"Recurse center" sounds totally generic and vague ("curse center"? "recluse
center"? is it some sort of holidays or rehab?).

Of course, everything can be rebranded, but I wouldn't call an instant rapport
"the biggest mistake".

------
vitno
While somewhat attached to the name, I think this is a good decision on the
part of the higher-ups at the Recurse Center (formerly Hacker School).

The new name makes it far more accesible to people outside of the community.

P.S. I love the recursive link up top.

------
marinhero
I like the new name! another reason that I would consider: try to explain to
the immigration office that you are going to "Hacker School" first of all,
they will freak out and then ask for your student visa.

~~~
giggles_giggles
This was not even a theoretical problem. There were batch-members who had
problems getting into the country because of "Hacker" being in the name.

------
Animats
From the site: _" The Recurse Center is a free, self-directed, educational
retreat for people who want to get better at programming, whether they’ve been
coding for three decades or three months. ... The lower bound for experience
for people who have successfully done a batch at the Recurse Center seems to
be about two months._" So, OK, it's not a "boot camp". It's more like Advanced
Infantry Training. You go there and program for three months.

The site is all about "Apply Now", before they tell you anything, even the
fact that it's in New York City. The FAQ doesn't tell you much about what they
actually do once you get there. The Manual is a little more helpful.

In Silicon Valley, we have Hacker Dojo, which is more about talks and classes
on advanced topics. (It's really mostly a co-working space for app developers
now.)

~~~
nicholasjbs
Does our about page
([https://www.recurse.com/about](https://www.recurse.com/about)) make it more
clear? If so, which info do you wish we had on our home page (beyond that
we're in NY)?

Thanks for the feedback!

------
48lizards
"Hacker News is now the Recurse Board"

------
thebouv
"We were able to get recurse.com, which is short, pronounceable, and easy to
spell."

And so many businesses end up with names because of this. I feel them on this.
Everyone sitting around, throwing out their ideas for names, someone at their
laptop checking domain registrations at the same time till something sticks.

~~~
davidbalbert
That scene you just described happened many times over the course of the past
few months :)

~~~
thebouv
I've lived that same scene many times over.

------
Torgo
It's interesting how a term like "hacker" can both be considered too
exclusionary and too inclusionary, depending on who you ask and what their
expectations are.

------
philippnagel
Just a heads up, in the apply form
([https://www.recurse.com/apply?r=homepage](https://www.recurse.com/apply?r=homepage))
you still refer to Hacker School.

~~~
nicholasjbs
Fixed; thanks!

~~~
avalaunch
I still see "Hacker School" in three different places on the apply page.

~~~
nicholasjbs
Ack, yes, thanks for pointing that out! Fixing now.

(This is the problem with carefully grep'ing your code base and then
completely forgetting about some of the parts of your site stored in the
database :\\)

------
pimlottc
I noticed the testimonials on the front page [0] have all be modified to say
"Recurse Center" even though some are years old. A quick Internet Archive
check [1] confirms they originally read "Hacker School". I'm not sure if this
is completely ethical; granted, it's just a name change, but they are
presented as being direct quotes, while clearly they no longer are.

0:
[https://www.recurse.com/#testimonials](https://www.recurse.com/#testimonials)

1:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20150316014829/https://www.hacke...](https://web.archive.org/web/20150316014829/https://www.hackerschool.com/#testimonials)

~~~
nicholasjbs
I asked every one of the people who wrote those if they were comfortable with
my updating the name in their testimonials prior to changing them.

~~~
pimlottc
Ah, then I guess it's the same as if they had just said the updated quote.
Thanks for clearing that up!

------
48lizards
"Hacker News to be renamed Recurse Board"

------
woah
This reminds me of when I was learning how to program. I would frequently
curse at the same sections of code repeatedly.

------
random_pr
The name sounds more like a rehabilitation centre than a school. I think the
average person is going to mistake it for 'Recourse Centre' (which probably is
a rehabilitation centre somewhere).

------
kazinator
_" Hacker School" has always been an actively bad name for us._

And so it became _imperative_ to change it.

------
andrewstuart
I feel like the new name misses the mark. It feels like it's been shoehorned
in somehow.

------
thomasjames
Not trying to be pedantic, I just want to know if recurse is now an accepted
word. Any thoughts? Sources seem to vary, and I know as a young field CS forms
new words fairly often still, but it is clear historically that the verb base
of "recursion" is "recur". Has recurse become the accepted form for discussion
relating to algorithms, though?

~~~
dragonwriter
> Not trying to be pedantic, I just want to know if recurse is now an accepted
> word.

It seems to be frequently used and accepted, with the definition presented in
Wiktionary:

[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recurse](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recurse)

While "recur" also has, among its meanings, the same meaning, "recurse" seems
vastly more likely to be used when the particular computing-specific meaning
is intended.

Though I don't think any general-purpose professionally-edited dictionaries
I've seen reflect this usage yet.

------
rilita
Problem: Chosen name was generic and had bad connotations. ( apparently both
"hacker" and "school" are considered bad currently )

Solution: Choose random geeky name where you can acquire the domain name.

There is still a negative connotation to the name for anyone who understands
what recursion is, and also perhaps for people who assume it is something
similar to "repeat". The name has the feeling that you will be repeating stuff
over and over there.

While "Recurse Center" is certainly a step up from "Hacker School" in terms of
branding, names generally are meaningless and are given meaning by using them.
A person's name could have been used to similar effect.

Props for improving the name, but I'm failing to see how so much text was
needed to say "The name was generic and had bad connotations so we chose a
better one."

Stating that you actually chose a name because you could buy the domain name
will just make you look bad.

------
lazzlazzlazz
Best of luck to Rehab Center... er I mean, Recourse Center. Scratch that -
Recurse Center (whatever "recurse" means).

(Yes, I know "recurse" is related to "recursive" but nobody says "recurse".
The association is too distant.)

~~~
icco
Man, this is exactly where my mind went as well.

------
ausjke
Isn't curse a bad word, then you have a recurse center? Don't feel like the
name and hacker school is much better :)

------
jumpingdeeps
I like it! It distinguishes you from coding bootcamps which you decidedly are
not.

------
deeviant
What if I want to learn more about iterative approaches?

------
brudgers
I hope the new name will not turn out to recurse the project with misleading
interpretations.

------
andrzejsz
I wish something like that existed in London

------
comrh
Not sure I get it. Sounds like a cult now.

------
pje
Did you mean "Recur"?

------
edgyswingset
> “School” is bad for us because it implies the trappings of traditional
> schools – teachers, classes, and curricula – instead of simply a place where
> people learn, which is all we intended by it.

This is a perfect example of focusing only on the negative aspects of
something. Furthermore, I find it at odds with the goals of Bootcamps such as
this (and yes, this is a bootcamp, no matter how they choose to label
themselves). Are there not instructors? Is there not some form of curriculum?
Are members not evaluated in some way?

~~~
Jayschwa
> Are there not instructors? Is there not some form of curriculum? Are members
> not evaluated in some way?

There are no instructors, there is no curriculum, and members are not
evaluated. It is not a bootcamp.

~~~
briandear
So it's like a commune?

~~~
pgbovine
It's like this: [http://pgbovine.net/hacker-school-
residency.htm](http://pgbovine.net/hacker-school-residency.htm)

(I haven't updated the name retroactively yet!)

