
I Won’t Buy My Teenagers Smartphones - danso
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/09/i-wont-buy-my-teenagers-smartphones/597805/
======
y4mi
This is clearly written by an adult who forgot how most children behave.

If they're the only ones without a smartphone, they'll be single out.
Especially with how prevalent online communication has become.

They might not be bullied (though they probably will be), but growing up as
the outsider comes with is own can of worms.

They'll most likely survive it, but it'll have it's effect... But everything
has consequences so I guess ymmv.

It's just kinda annoying to constantly read about these parents making tech
into something harmful (which it obviously _can be_ ) and their own great
strategy to counter this, which has at least as many dangers for their mental
health as the alternative had.

~~~
ergothus
I think your take is valid, but also missing large areas.

Even if they AREN'T bullied for lack, they'll miss out on all the
socialization. When I was a teen people talked on the phone, they hung out at
the mall. I barely did. When not at school, I stayed at home to care for my
younger brother and make sure dinner was made (child of a working single mom).
I went out of state to my dad's place every summer, so I never spent summer
vacation around my school peers.

Now I'm an adult, and I don't have close friends. I never have. I don't know
how to open up to people, or how to hang out with people where it isn't an
obligation on one part or the other. I remain aloof, then desperately
overshare (case in point), then feel awkward and embarrassed and withdraw.
I've had two serious relationships in my life...and got married both times.

Today's kids won't be talking on the phone, they won't be texting, they won't
even be tweeting, they'll be snapping or instagramming or any number of
things. They'll be sharing the experiences they have in common and generating
those experiences, and for many, MANY of them those experiences will be around
smartphone tech.

And this author has decided their kids don't need that shared experience. That
comes at a cost.

~~~
ksdale
Counterpoint, I had all the socialization I could possibly want growing up,
and as an adult I had to unlearn a lot of social behaviors that I had learned
when I was surrounded exclusively by my peers.

I personally think that socialization is often meant as "acting like the
popular kids act" (though it doesn't sound like you're using it that way) and
as my kids grow up, I am regularly shocked at how crappy kids are to each
other. When I was a kid, I thought all the homeschooled kids I knew were
weird, but they just acted like the adults in their lives, and without
exception, they all turned into well-functioning adults.

Despite my negative take on socialization, though, we are also very liberal
with technology. We just have high standards for their behavior, and don't
think that following trends is good for it's own sake.

~~~
ergothus
I think you're taking a problem of "opportunity + practice = success" and
pointing out that you had opportunity but not success, and therefore
opportunity is irrelevant.

> socialization is often meant as "acting like the popular kids act" (though
> it doesn't sound like you're using it that way)

My usage is more a matter of "understanding the social skills that are not
formally taught". In particular, I'm talking about things like understanding
social cues, when/how to be supportive, etc. There are absolutely negative
social skills that can be learned this way, so you're correct there. But even
a gang of jerks has social structures and interactions, and someone that never
got much practice/exposure at those will struggle to even succeed in joining a
gang of jerks. (Not that doing so is such a great aspiration)

> I am regularly shocked at how crappy kids are to each other

Totally. I recall previous articles (I believe on HN) about how parents hate
the shows on the Disney channel because they demonstrate/teach terrible social
skills for tweens. (Bratty children, idiot parents, etc).

Putting kids in a group won't teach them how to be good people and I didn't
mean to imply that. It _will_ teach them to be a social group. These ideas are
orthogonal.

~~~
ksdale
Thank you for your reply!

I mostly wanted to provide a countervailing anecdote rather than any sort of
fixed rule.

I would say that I definitely had success, by your definition of social. I've
never had a problem making friends, but socialization as a kid didn't benefit
me long term because being social with pre-teens and teenagers is useless
training for being social with adults in a professional environment, which is
where I now spend most of my time. I basically had to learn to be social all
over again.

So I guess I take issue with the idea that people need to be around their
peers to learn to be social at all. I agree that social skills are not
formally taught, and that they need to be learned, but I think all that is
required to accomplish this is that children are around people who interact
with them. If they have that, I think the cost of them not being involved in
whatever kids these days are doing is not that high, and definitely not as
high as they might think it is in the moment.

~~~
ergothus
> being social with pre-teens and teenagers is useless training for being
> social with adults in a professional environment

I don't think I agree, but I've been spending some brain churn on this since
you posted it so I'm not 100% settled on it.

It's definitely an interesting element to consider, thanks for going to this
depth!

------
chuckgreenman
I see the smart phone addiction problem as similar to the food addiction
problem, you have to eat and if you want to have a good modern job you have to
have a cell phone. Part of becoming an adult is learning about the temptations
of life and how to manage them. Ultimately I think this is a disservice in the
long term, by shielding their kids from technology they also shield them from
the development of the self control muscle.

The great author/comedian John Hodgeman once said "it's their time to waste"
in response to someone who wrote into his advice column about their teens
seeming to waste their time as a teen. Unfortunately, goofing off and wasting
time is a thing I think most people need to do for some segment of their lives
until they become sick of it and decide to get in gear.

------
docker_up
My friend recently got his sons a smartphone and he says their relationship
has been irrevocably damaged because of it. Not because they are rude, etc.
But when they used to talk, now it's complete silence and them looking at
their phones, chatting with their friends or girlfriends. He hates the phones
now because there is no socialization whatsoever with his kids. The power of
the phone is that strong, and he had such a close relationship with his sons.

~~~
pradn
It's time to move past the idea of "self-control" as an option against the
onslaught of addictive apps. I've been leaving my phone at home on the
weekends when I go out for a few hours, and it's been liberating. It's easier
to leave my phone at home completely than to stop checking it when I'm away.
And yes, this does require some self-control. I mention this to friends and
they say they can't at all leave because of paranoia - what if I'm really
needed, what if I miss something? I'm okay with missing important calls if
they come. That's the price of it all.

~~~
ihuman
If I understand correctly, what you're saying is you use self-control to
create situations where you don't need to rely on self-control? That seems
like a good compromise between having a smartphone 24/7 and no smartphone
ever. I've done similar things in the past; when I needed to study for an
upcoming exam, I setup a web filter that would block distracting websites if I
browsed them for too long.

------
opportune
I would put this on par with being an anti-vaxxer. Not only are the kids not
allowed smartphones but their internet access is apparently strictly monitored
well into their teens. Good way to get your kids to hate you as soon as they
move our.

The author is just longing for an era that’s gone. It’s funny she mentions
hanging out under bridges, drinking, and dating while also probably never
letting her kids get anywhere close to a situation where that is possible. And
won’t let her kids make mistakes even regarding food, and complains about kids
these days not wanting to drive. You would think this is some kind of satire
making fun of boomers (even though the author is technically not one)

This is, in my opinion, a terrible parenting style. Smartphones are a part of
life these days. You wouldn’t have your kids ride a horse drawn carriage
wearing handmade blouses to school, and bemoan the fact they won’t play
outside with a hoop and a stick, just because that’s the way it was when you
grew up

~~~
jonstokes
The reason being an anti-vaxxer is bad is because of a concept called "herd
immunity." There is no analog, here. I think that not only do you not
understand much about kids, but you also don't understand the analogy you're
trying to use.

~~~
opportune
I guess I mean it’s more along the lines of crazy-parenting that hurts kids.

> I think that not only do you not understand much about kids, but you also
> don't understand the analogy you're trying to use.

I understand herd immunity lol but thank you for the lesson

------
dukoid
"My boys are not like the kid I met in college who had grown up without TV and
didn’t appreciate the cultural relevancy of Bo and Luke Duke or George
Jefferson. My kids readily quote Ron Swanson and Dwight Shrute." \-- I bet the
"no TV" parents had a similar defense citing radio access....

------
non-entity
Interesting. My parents similarly never got me or my siblings smartphones (in
retrospect it may have been a financial thing, though). I was 18 before I
bought my own (only a few year ago!) I've never met another person in this
sort of situation. Most other people I knew had their parents eventually get
them one early in HS.

There were definitely negative effects. I imagine mostly social and nowadays
inconsequential to an extent. I'm still to this day rather isolated, both from
my family and peers

On the flip side I had an incredible attention span and was able to learn
anything I wanted with persistence. I'm simply not able to do that anymore.

That being said, I don't think I'd so the same for my kids.

------
Nursie
>> I believe that a smartphone too accessible, given too early, and in the
wrong hands is at best an addictive distraction and at worst a handheld siphon
draining away children’s youth one beep, one swipe, one notification at a
time.

I support a parent's right to choose for their kids, but this seems very
naive, and not far off the "No good will come of you spending all that time on
the computer, go outside and play" line my own mother used to spin, and the
fears that having computers in the house would warp kids of the 80s.

In reality I had no deficit of outside time, or sports at school, she just
took against tech early on. She just got a (dumb) mobile phone about two years
ago and rarely uses it.

The real root of the fear here seems to be that your child might have a
different upbringing to your own, one you don't understand.

I have no doubt the kids will be fine, if a little peeved at Mom for denying
them common forms and channels of social interaction their peers indulge in.

~~~
danso
As someone who grew up with a computer in the household in the 80s, I don't
think the two situations are comparable. For one, a computer back then (and
even today) is much less geared toward consumption (versus creation) than
phones are. Second, being able to carry a phone with you and use it all day
makes it a fundamentally different influence.

~~~
tjansen
Not sure where you grew up, but where I grew up most kids spent at least 95%
of their computer time playing games.

~~~
danso
Yeah I played a lot of games too, but it was still a machine that was geared
toward you doing work – even when playing games (besides qbasic, configuring
.bat and .ini files were my first foray into hacking and programming). And
reading USENET was not as addictive or as mind-dulling as infinitely scrolling
on Instagram and Facebook

------
1shooner
>I think my boys feel the same way about smartphones that I felt about Guess
jeans—the ones with zippers at the ankles—in 1984. All the cool, pretty girls
had a pair. My desire for the jeans was more about fitting in with the crowd
than about the jeans themselves.

The author is conflating 'fitting in' with communicating.

~~~
ViViDboarder
I don’t know. They mention that they allow them to text and message friends
from their tablet when at home. Essentially it is merely avoiding distraction
at school.

------
stanski
My initial reaction is to agree with this parent's policy because I don't
really like smartphones. The problem is you just kind of need them even if
you're not a big social media user.

As a grown up, I've considered giving up my own smart phone but friends use
whatsapp/viber, traffic in the city is getting worse every year and an app
like Waze becomes essential, depending on what you do, reading and replying to
email while on the go can be pretty important. Similarly, growing up in a
society where your peers connect pretty much exclusively via social media, you
simply need it if you want to even remotely fit in (like others have pointed
out). Not having a smart phone is not the end of the world (for me or the
teenagers in question) but there will be _daily_ negative consequences.

The problem is not the tech itself but the way it's being used. It's the whole
reason I don't really like having a smart phone (while also enjoying many of
its features). I want a utilitarian tool that gets done what I need done. If I
use a socket wrench to remove a bolt, I expect the wrench to just do it. I
don't want it telling me about some fancier wrench available or a better bolt
to use in the future or anything else I didn't ask of it.

What I get instead is a platform where I can be targetted, sometimes
obviously, sometimes invisibly, as a potential customer of some business. On
top of all that, you know the device is easily damaged and doesn't last very
long because of a quickly degrading battery. And good luck finding a good
quality battery after 2 years or even easily replacing it. Screws are the
biggest faux pas you can now commit as a manufacturer. You'd probably sell
more units if some of them spontaneously combust than if they aren't all
smooth and glossy.

Any attempt to make a human-centric smart phone (and underlying OS) is doomed
to failure because of cost.

But hey, current smartphones is what people want so what do I know. Anyway.
Did I mention I don't like smart phones?

------
benjohnson
In my opinion, it's better to teach your children moderation while they're
young and can learn to spot temptation and learn how to moderate themselves.

A young adult that grows up without these trials may be ill prepared for all
the things that tempt them when they gain their Independence.

~~~
non-entity
My parents we're very authoritarian. Not really your typical helicopter
parents, or religious fundamentalist parents, but aspects of those did make
their way into parenting. The strangest thing to me was hearing about how
things were much better when they were kids because kid did _this_ and _that_
, but then discouraged us from doing similar things.

------
secabeen
I do wonder if the push to virtual interactions over physical ones is driven
by the rise of afterschool care for kids in dual-income families. My kids are
at home after school, but there are few other kids out playing. Most of the
kids in our neighborhood aren't home in the afternoons, are there aren't
groups of kids playing in the parks unsupervised. The parks are largely used
by pre-school ages kids with nannies, or for family groups after dinner.

The smartphone allows kids to stay in contact with their friends even when
they are otherwise occupied with sports, aftercare, etc. etc.

------
grahamel
it's a shame we don't hear the kids side in the article

people I know who have done this have eventually changed and allowed/bought a
phone as the in school peer pressure was huge and the kids ended up feeling
excluded from their social groups as not fitting in (nothing wrong with kids
finding their own path btw)

~~~
helpPeople
I think there is going to be a major technology gap next generation.

Nerds vs Luddites vs Apple users.

Each will have a vastly different understanding of technology.

------
jonstokes
I think it's amazing that on a site that's supposedly filled with tech geeks,
so few commenters seem to know the difference between spending time alone in
your room in front a non-networked PC learning to code, and being glued to a
networked smartphone no matter where you are, taking in a feed and waiting for
the dopamine hit from a "like" or a share.

Anyway, the public-spirited side of me sees responses like the ones here and
is depressed, but my secret inner libertarian sees them and thinks: "Score! My
three kids will have attention spans and social skills, and will out-compete
the smartphone-addicted children of these fools in every arena of adult life.
So by all means, cripple your kids by handing them one of these pocket slot
machines. Mwuahahaha"

~~~
non-entity
> My three kids will have attention spans and social skills, and will out-
> compete the smartphone-addicted children of these fools in every arena of
> adult life.

until, you know, they decide to buy a smartphone as an adult, and over consume
then

~~~
bigtunacan
They will still have had almost an 18 year learning advantage at that point.

------
plughs
I feel like this article conflates 'smart device' with 'phone' in a way that
can often happend

My 8 year old has one of our old phones with WiFi only. It's still plenty
addictive with with the thrill of games and TV. If you wait to talk about
smart phone addiction until your kid gets cell service you're probably going
to miss the boat.

As my kid gets older - well the author may sneer at your kid waiting a few
minutes to get picked up from soccer practice but that minimizes the issue.
When I was a kid it was a collect call from "I'm-at-the-library-pick-me-up-
by-5". I think there's a lot to be said for giving a kid flexibility in their
movements. That may mean a 'dumb' phone, which I would consider, but it
doesn't mean no phones whatsoever.

I think the other counter-point I would make to the author is that the best
time to start talking to your kids about smart phones may well be while
they're still on premise, and still respect and trust you. I've ( somewhat
reluctantly ) setup my kid with ( facebook ) kids messenger and a Roblox
account. She only has access on my phone so her time is limited, and it's also
led to a lot of good discussions about internet predator and pressure to pay
for in-game upsells.

Most importantly ( IMO ) is talking about how easy it is for social
interactions to lead to problems - getting bullied, being a bully, the blow to
her self esteem if her friends seem to be chatting with each other and leaving
her out. It's really hard to navigate, and it doesn't go away if she gets her
first smartphone at 18. I don't know if I really can protect her from it but
perhaps I can let her know that I understand, and she can talk to me

------
chooseaname
Far be it from me to tell anyone how to raise their children, but here's my
opinion on this matter.

First, it's about trust. Trust starts when they're infants. They cry, you show
up. They cry, you show up. They have to know that when they have a need, you
provide for it. Trust is also about leading by example. Be the person you want
your children to be. If you don't want them on Facebook, don't be on Facebook.
If you don't want them to use a smartphone at the table, don't bring yours to
the table. Will this, in reality, mean they'll not use Facebook or bring their
phones to the table? Maybe, maybe not. You don't want robots. You want
independent humans. You're a guide, an example, that's all. Be the best one
you can be. But when they do bring their phone to the table, you will have,
from birth, built up enough trust to be able to have a conversation about it
with them. They'll talk to you because they trust you. When you have a concern
that you think they're forming an addiction to their phone, they'll talk to
you, because you've earned their trust.

~~~
icebraining
> They'll talk to you because they trust you

What if they don't? I've met a few parents who thought they had parenting
nailed. Then they had another child.

~~~
chooseaname
Could be the child doesn't trust the parents. Could be other factors like
maybe something changed in the parent-child relationship that the parent
didn't notice. There's always counseling.

------
snow_mac
My son is 8... there is no way in hell I'm going to let him have a smartphone.
I mean, he poops in pants still and can't hold his pacifier in his mouth on
his own. Why am I going to give him a $1,000 smartphone? His crib wasn't that
expensive... 8 is too early to a kid to have a smartphone.

~~~
bigtunacan
If your son is 8 and is really still pooping his pants and using a pacifier
then I really feel for you as you must be dealing with more serious issues
than worrying about smart phones. Good luck and stay strong.

------
nafizh
Traditionally, people didn't need to go out of their way to make so many
outside friends as the extended family provided all the relationships and
connections that you need for mental well being. Besides, with extended
families, the community was much more strong, everyone knew everyone providing
the connections outside of family many people crave now. With the collapse of
the extended family system, now people are siloed, and have to go out of their
way to make new connections. These real life connections might help you
temporarily socialize but very few turn into meaningful long term ones, and
the connections that you make on social media are facetious.

------
tiborsaas
She just basically forced her 14 year old to come up with a way to buy a
smartphone himself.

~~~
theandrewbailey
... provided that she permits the 14 year old to buy one.

~~~
icebraining
Or the 14 year old does it behind their backs.

~~~
beatgammit
How would they get a plan? I thought you had to be an adult to get most cell
plans, though I guess prepaid plans might work.

~~~
icebraining
Yeah, where I live, prepaid is the norm, so I didn't even think of that.
Still, I know teenagers who get by with just wifi.

------
gwbas1c
Just curious: Any parents in this thread? When did you give your kids
smartphones?

We're at the point where we replace our phones every two years, and plan on
letting our kids use the old ones. (Probably wifi-only, mostly to keep costs
under control.)

~~~
holdenc
It's a short trip between 15 and 18 years old. Treat a 15 year old like a
baby, and they'll be making up for lost time their first year away from home.
A 15 year deserves a smart phone, but should respect the house rules on when
it's ok to use.

~~~
jonstokes
I'm a parent of three girls, the oldest of which is 10. None of them will have
smartphones, probably not even in high school. I run my house pretty much like
the author of the article -- there are gadgets on the weekend, only. And even
then the internet-connected ones are very carefully controlled and there are a
ton of rules.

But you know what? My kids aren't babied. My oldest and I just went to a two-
day rifle shooting clinic, and the two oldest have knives of their own that
are very sharp and that they can use whenever they want.

They hike in the woods by our house, unsupervised, and they ride horses and
swim. They climb trees. They camp in a tent in the woods by the house.

As for their peers? Those poor kids have never even touched a sharp knife,
much less been given one of their own. My kids are well aware that they're
allowed to take a lot more risks than their peers, and that they're given more
responsibility for their own safety.

They're not babied. Rather, the kids who stay indoors on a gadget are the ones
who are babied and stunted. They're the ones whose parents have infantilized
them.

A kid doesn't "deserve" a smartphone. What they deserve is a childhood. They
deserve to be bored for long stretches and to have to make up their own games
and stuff to do. They deserve the privacy of their own thoughts, and to not be
tethered to a gadget that they can't put down. They deserve flesh-and-blood
relationships, instead of jerky pixels and audio. They deserve a life, and not
just an existence.

~~~
bigtunacan
There is some huge conflation there. I have three kids 10, 12, 15 and all
three have cell phones. There are rules regarding use.

1\. No phones at dinner EVER

2\. No electronics (of any kind) except low music on school nights without
explicit approval or when the device is being used specifically for school
work

3\. Free reign on weekend electronics outside of prior commitments and all
chores are done

Weekends roll around and you would think they would be glued to the
electronics based on everything people post here, but usually it ends up being
a last resort. They would much prefer to go play soccer with friends, practice
their artwork, go shooting or give each other facials.

------
notacoward
> When did sitting at home isolated by closed doors and earbuds become a
> social life?

When it became a reliable way to express meaning and feeling with other
people. One can quibble about exactly when it became ubiquitous and high-
bandwidth enough for that purpose, but for many people it's clearly that way
now. Pining for the days when kids hung out at bowling alleys or overpasses is
just nostalgia congealing into snobbishness.

------
yanko
I have set same policy to my kids one on teenage 16 and she is perfectly happy
with keys-calls only phone used rarely But having all high end features and
enough freedom at home But yet almost no social networks exposure by choice

------
francisofascii
It is frustrating how this is driven by those first parents that have no
limits. Kids complain that they don't want to be left out, normal, middle of
the road parents cave in, thus forcing the hold out parents to eventually
cave.

------
werber
[https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_int/nokia-2720-flip](https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_int/nokia-2720-flip)
something like this seems like a happy medium

------
johnsnowtho
I wonder does a situation like this come up every 20 years?

Like before it was TV, then Radio, then... books maybe?

I guess the question is, is the internet _worse_ or _more addictive_ than
these other distractions.

------
coreyp_1
Smartphone addiction is like alcohol addiction. Why do some countries (the
USA) have more problems than than others (the rest of the world)?

Because in most countries, a healthy, controlled exposure is what most teens
experience, so that they learn how to handle alcohol responsibly.

In almost all of the USA, it's illegal to drink until you're 21.

Not teaching your children how to responsibly use a smartphone is the current
problem.

Denying a child a smartphone, and then expecting them to magically be able to
control such an addictive substance is arguably worse.

Be a better parent.

~~~
emblaegh
Never been to the US, but I never had the impression that Americans had more
problems with alcohol than, say, Europe (if anything the stereotype goes the
opposite way). A quick google search seems to point that Americans die more of
alcohol related accidents? That could be just because Americans drive more.

------
ykevinator
The ego on this person.

------
gmoore
yes - resisting change is always a good idea.....sheesh

------
lol_jono
ok boomer

~~~
dang
Can you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? You've done
it a lot and we ban accounts that do that repeatedly. We're trying for a bit
better than internet default here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

~~~
lol_jono
ok

------
Hitton
It would be interesting to know if the mother herself has and uses smartphone.
If yes it seems like smartphones for me but not for thee, 14 year is too old
to protect from harm of phone usage. It's not too different from
fundamentalist parents banning their kids from having outsider
friends/watching TV/dating. It seems that the mom is just flexing her power
over the kids.

------
TacticalTable
> They text, they Snap—but only on weekends and a little bit this past summer

All I can see, reading this, is how similar that sounds to being grounded for
the new normal teen. Its complete social isolation, and I hope the backlash
the author receives from this article gets considered instead of some snarky
'your anger means I'm right' response.

> He would eat an entire bag of Nacho Cheese Doritos—the party-size bag—if
> left alone with the opportunity

This is hardly an example of an inability to make good decisions. This just
shows the inability of these parents to let their kids learn on their own, and
is creating the dependent teens they're trying to prevent.

