

With Sinofsky gone and Start8 selling well, will MS add the start menu back? - Breakthrough
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-Could-Launch-a-Start-Menu-Option-in-Windows-8-307447.shtml

======
Aardwolf
In what way does merging the desktop and touch experience in one support
ANYONE? Why did they (and some Linux desktops as well) try that at all?

Two different types of devices with two different input paradigms. Why merge
them? Why not optimize them for each separate paradigm?

It is much better for everyone, and friendlier to the user, to give them the
best, perfect, interface, for the device they are using. Even if that device
is a desktop computer.

~~~
codeulike
You don't see a benefit to having a unified experience between Laptop, Tablet
and Phone? And Xbox?

By standardising the interface, you standardise the environment and
interactions for apps. Metro apps for a Win 8 phone will also run on Win 8
tablets and laptops.

I think its a pretty brave decision from Microsoft, and it may well pay off
massively.

~~~
ANTSANTS
This "we'll control the whole ecosystem by standardizing the interface!"
scheme honestly sounds about as ridiculous to me as "it's a 5 billion dollar
market, so if we take just 1% of it, we'll be rich!" It doesn't take a genius
to understand that there are significant differences in interacting with a
computer by touching a tiny screen held up to one's face, touching a larger
screen held slightly farther away, pointing a mouse around and typing on a
keyboard, and selecting menu items with a d-pad while looking at a screen that
is several feet away.

If you deliberately try to use the same interface across each of those
interfaces, you're just going to get an unusable mess. It's amazing that some
of the same people that understand the idea that "you need a responsive design
for your website because no one wants to hunt for 32x32 pixel buttons on a
phone" can completely miss that concept when it's applied to anything that
doesn't have a touch screen.

Sharing technology and development tools between the platforms makes sense.
Tying the tablet and phone experiences closely together makes sense. Adopting
a similar visual style across the platforms makes sense. It's still a horrible
idea to say "we'll just take our smart phone app, make all the touchable
buttons clickable ones, and voila, we have a full-featured desktop app!"

Desktops are inherently oriented towards small items on high resolution
displays. If you make menu items too large, both reduce the amount of stuff
you can fit on the screen at once and increase the travel the user has to make
to select them. More importantly, desktops are inherently oriented towards
multitasking, and hiding the entire screen just to open a program is
inherently hostile towards that.

I'm usually the last one to complement them, but I'm consistently dumbfounded
that Apple seems to be the only of the major (or even minor, if you consider
the various Unix DEs) players that understands that tablets are not desktops,
even when they have a keyboard plugged into them. Tablets are all about single
tasking, desktops are all about multitasking, and you should not attempt to
get that peanut butter in that chocolate.

~~~
codeulike
I think what they are attempting just 'sounds ridiculous' to you because no-
one has succeeded yet. If they fail, then you'll turn out to have been right.
If they succeed, then they'll do very well.

 _It's still a horrible idea to say "we'll just take our smart phone app, make
all the touchable buttons clickable ones, and voila, we have a full-featured
desktop app!"_

Which is why they haven't just done that. They've put a lot of thought into it
and come up with a system that scales through different interfaces.

 _Tablets are all about single tasking_

Except for windows tablets, that encourage multi-tasking.

~~~
ANTSANTS
"You don't know if it's a bad idea or not because it hasn't been done yet" is
a conversation killing sentence if I've ever heard one. Ok, we agree to
disagree, let's stop talking about this for a few months and see what happens!

Meanwhile, it "sounds ridiculous" to me not because it's an untested concept,
but because I think tablets are inherently different enough from desktops to
justify keeping their interfaces distinctly separate. I don't think it's
possible to fit more than one full touch app (or maybe a condensed version of
a second one for a few simple use cases) comfortably on a 10" screen (to say
nothing of a 7" one). I don't think giant buttons and pleasant whitespace are
a good use of a desktop or laptop monitor.

> _Which is why they haven't just done that. They've put a lot of thought into
> it and come up with a system that scales through different interfaces._

Except that they didn't, in the case of the Start Screen. Program and location
menus, quick launch buttons, "pinned apps," and lightweight search bars ala
Unity Search/Windows Vista and 7 start menu search/dmenu, all of which _don't
obscure the entire screen while I'm trying to do something,_ are just some of
the desktop workflow-friendly solutions to the "how do I start doing something
else" problem that come to mind. The Start Screen doesn't completely break
Windows, but it's still a bad idea on the desktop, and at least one instance
of Microsoft prioritizing their tablet interface over their desktop interface.

> _Except for windows tablets, that encourage multi-tasking._

Being able to prop a condensed view of an app up against an even more
condensed view of another app is a far cry from being able to switch between
dozens of running programs with a few keypresses and/or a mouse click. I'm not
saying that it's not a good option to have available, it's just not in any way
comparable to the style of multitasking that desktop interfaces are designed
around.

------
nzeribe
All of the backwards-looking nostalgia from all of the commenters posting so
far are exactly why Apple were able to get out of the door with iPad first and
slowly destroy Microsoft's pre-eminence. Had Redmond produced the iPad, it's
users would have rejected it - and demanded a "Start" button! Quite ludicrous.
Ballmer may be gutting the company of all of it's talent and slowly running it
into the ground but, unbelievably, I am with him on this one.

~~~
mtgx
The problem is Apple separated the two, with 2 separate use cases. And people
bought into that. Microsoft is _not_ doing that. They are merging the two, and
pissing off a lot of people in the process.

A new survey from Avast shows the same thing. What's surprising is that a
third of the respondents even plan to switch to Mac next because of Windows 8:

[http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2012/11/14/poll-shows-
us-...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2012/11/14/poll-shows-us-consumers-
hesitant-windows-8/1700585/)

~~~
madoublet
Not entirely correct, from the article "While 68% indicated they would get one
of the new Windows 8 models, 30% planned to buy an Apple iPad touch tablet,
and 12%, an Apple Macintosh computer." Math seems a bit off here.

------
barefoot
The start screen and missing start button are indeed steps forward when
implemented properly and I think Microsoft is most of the way there. I would
be very displeased if they added the start menu or button back.

There is still a start button, and they made it _larger_. The four corners of
the screen are the fastest and easiest targets to acquire aside from the pixel
directly under the current mouse position. The lower left corner is infinitely
larger and easier of a target to hit than the old start button. The only place
this breaks down is inside a virtual machine (you can still use the corner to
open the menu but it's significantly slower).

As for the start screen replacing the start menu on the desktop, I think it's
still a net win. How often do you need to see your current desktop while
navigating the start menu? I can't think of one occurrence in my ten or so
years of using Windows on a daily basis. If the rest of the screen is not
actively used for the task, why fill it with noise?

The start screen on all of the Windows 8 installs that I've used opens just as
fast as the previous start menu. I primarily use search (Windows Key + Start
Typing...) and it works better than the previous version by taking advantage
of the additional space on the screen.

I'm not sure if this is even a story. What's a rational well-reasoned argument
for bringing back the start menu or button other than "it's what I'm used to"?

~~~
ygra
The start button itself never was restricted to just the space of the button.
The lower-left corner has always worked the same way (well, not in NT4 and not
in XP if you had the language bar in the task bar). Still, for a very long
time and at least for US customers the lower-left corner has worked to bring
up the start menu.

~~~
dagw
_not in XP if you had the language bar in the task bar_

So that is the reason. I've never understood why the lower-left corner thing
worked on some XP machines and not others. Now I know, Thank you!

~~~
ygra
Fun fact: The lower-left corner isn't actually the start button. Instead your
mouse cursor gets moved a little up and to the right when you click so that
the click occurs on the button (the movement is always in the direction of the
button, even if you click next to the button instead of the corner(. You can
still see this when the language bar is docked in the task bar, except that
the pointer movement on click is not enough to overcome the added height due
to the language bar.

This trickery only works at the very edge of the screen, though. So if you
click just a pixel below the start button (when it's moved upwards by the
language bar) then nothing will happen.

I suspect that was once a rushed usability fix after noticing in testing that
people apparently couldn't hit the button if they just moved their mouse right
into the corner. And moving the pointer by a bit was perhaps deemed less
likely to break anything than simulating a click on the button.

Or Microsoft just wasn't that good with testing back then (I think the
language bar was introduced in Windows 2000, along with the problem), since
most US users won't have multiple keyboard layouts or languages configured.
Most users in other countries however _do_ – at least I always got the US
keyboard layout installed alongside with the German one (which leads to people
being very confused about why their keyboard produces strange symbols because
they happened to hit Alt+Shift by accident).

Uhm, I guess I got a little side-tracked here.

------
Permit
Where is this love of the Start Menu coming from? Can't people just type in
the name of program they're interested in?

What does the Start Menu offer that people miss?

~~~
gregd
Have you used Windows 8 on the desktop? The start menu and the desktop top are
two separate "eco systems" for lack of a better word. When you're on the
desktop, you can't just start typing and have search popup what it finds like
you can on the start menu.

The new start menu is a usability nightmare. I can't get desktop alerts on my
Start Menu (from AV and Firewall). Toast notifications, when desktop programs
catch up to that functionality, won't be as elaborate as desktop
notifications. Meaning I won't be able to click "allow" or "deny" or "block"
while in the start menu.

~~~
Permit
>Have you used Windows 8 on the desktop?

Yes, I used the previews and it's my primary OS at home.

> The start menu and the desktop top are two separate "eco systems" for lack
> of a better word. When you're on the desktop, you can't just start typing
> and have search popup what it finds like you can on the start menu.

I'm not sure I follow. If you hit the Windows key and begin typing, you have
search across your whole system. It's essentially the same as Windows 7 with
the exception of user interface. (ie. the same functionality is present)

~~~
gregd
Universal search isn't really universal if the functionality doesn't act the
same throughout the system. I agree that the search functionality from the
start menu is excellent. Just starting to type away will automatically bring
up search and begin to _almost_ instantaneously offer results FROM THE START
MENU ONLY.

Want this functionality from the desktop? NOPE! Want this functionality from
the App Store? NOPE!

------
meaty
They better do as to be honest, I'll be fucked if I'm going to use it any more
unless it happens.

Historically, I have used Windows 8 from CP, to RP and now RTM exclusively.
Unfortunately, I now have to use RDP and as a VMware guest regularly, which
due to the hot corners and the fact that some apps whinge about resolution
being low if you run in a smaller than 1378x768 window, it is absolutely
unusable. It's so backwards it's sickening.

~~~
xradionut
Windows 8 works best as a VMWare guest OS. :)

------
duiker101
I don't see what it the problem with the new windows 8 dashboard... I really
think it works just fine... I mean just because you are used to the start menu
doesn't mean you can't change... OSX and Ubuntu(random one) don't have a start
menu and they do just fine. It's just that you need to get used to it. I don't
think MS will bring it back. And people will soon forget about it.

~~~
jcoby
OS X and Ubuntu also don't have two modes of operating. Win8 is basically two
operating systems that you can freely switch between.

(I use Windows for games and for testing in IE. I use OS X as my primary OS.
The below is from a few hours of using Win8 after upgrading last week. I have
been using Windows since the 3.1 days.)

In Win8 you can click on the Desktop charm and get to the desktop. There is
absolutely no way to get back to the Metro start screen by clicking on
something on the screen. You have to go to a 5x5px hidden block in the bottom-
left of the screen and then click on the start block thing. Or use the
keyboard.

When in Metro you have to go to the bottom-right corner and then wait and then
go to the middle of the right in order to access settings. Or something. I
can't really figure out how I manage to get the right side menu to pop out. I
just move it around on the bottom right side of the screen until something
happens. I still can't figure out how to edit charms.

There is nothing you can click on to see all of your apps. You have to start
typing while in Metro. I had to use Google to figure this out. A "find apps"
or something charm would be helpful.

Win8 is so chock full of mystery meat navigation that I cannot use it with the
mouse. I'm having to use the keyboard to do anything. And it's so
undiscoverable that I can not recommend it to anyone that isn't a power user.

The Win8 UI is really bad. They'll make it better but as it stands now, it's
awful and unusable for normal people.

------
firkolas
pfft! What a load of toosh. This is just marketing crap from Stardocks as they
realise their precious desktop theming software is redundant. Who themes their
desktop other than kids anyway?

~~~
Shorel
It was redundant the moment Windows 7 shipped.

------
doah78
I think MS needs to quit trying to reinvent entire OS's and start tweaking
features within the OS and specific portions of the OS. That I think is one
thing that Apple did correctly. They keep a similar user experience between
versions but tweak various features within it building upon the previous
release.

~~~
ygra
You'll be delighted to find the UX in desktop mode to be pretty much the same
(sans Start Menu, which becomes more and more obsolete if you pin stuff to the
task bar) with _loads_ of nice tweaks. From a better file copy dialog to a new
task manager – the improvements are there.

------
gregd
What I find really irritating, is the lack of interaction between the start
menu and the desktop. I use current AV and Firewall software that's "Windows 8
compatible". However, if I'm in the app store and attempt to launch an app
from there, the firewall will happily block it with no notifications visible
where I am currently (app store, or start menu)

If I then go back to the desktop, I can answer the alert from the firewall AND
go back to the app store and use the app. I've since learned that the start
menu will have toast notifications, but everything that I'm reading about them
is that they will not have the same elaborations that desktop notifications
have. In other words, I can't answer "allow", "deny", "block" or anything else
while in the start menu.

Is nobody else seeing this behavior?

------
Yhippa
The only thing that bothers me about the new Start menu is that it takes an
extra step to get to the point where I can search for programs. I'd been using
that feature anyway but now I have to get to the charms and go to "Search".
I'd like to hit a shortcut to do that.

~~~
missing_cipher
Not really, just press the Windows key and start typing. You don't even have
to go to search.

~~~
ygra
Or, if you want an explicit “Search for apps”, then it's Win+Q.

------
daigoba66
The only thing that annoys me is the split up of searching for programs,
settings (control panel applets), and files. I alway hit start and then begin
typing, but 2/3 of the time don't see what I'm looking for. I have to notice
that I'm actually looking for a setting or file and then change context. I
know there are shortcuts to jump straight to searching files or settings, but
I'm not always thinking about that. Especially when it is a gray area like
control panel applets or small utility programs that I don't have shortcuts
for.

When most search implementations are becoming more single and "unified",
Windows has taken a step backwards.

Why can't they just copy Apple's Spotlight?

~~~
gregd
I also haven't been able to figure out how to search the app store. The same
"universal" search functionality that works from the start menu (by just
starting to type anywhere), doesn't work in the app store. Right-clicking in
the app store doesn't work either. What am I missing?

~~~
daigoba66
You have to bring up the charm menu (mouse in upper right or windows-c), and
then click search and then start typing. Took me far too long to figure that
out.

~~~
gregd
Fuckin' A. Thanks...

~~~
drharris
Now that you've learned it, you'll find it works for almost every app. Windows
Store isn't approving many apps that don't use the built-in search (other than
games and things where search doesn't make sense)

~~~
gregd
It's still very counterintuitive to the universal search functionality that
exists on the start menu. Which, I might add, is fucking fantastic!

It doesn't make sense to my feeble mind to bring up a charm for search while
in the App Store. Why can't I simply just start typing?

~~~
drharris
Now that I can't answer. I do know their goal for making it a charm was to
provide an easy platform for apps to implement search, to get as much
participation as possible. That said, each app could still individually make
design choices toward usability. Seems like what you're asking for should have
been an obvious improvement in such a central app (and put usability far
beyond Apple's App Store).

------
kmfrk
But their “telemetry data” and “Customer Experience Improvement Program”!

Seriously, I’m not joking:
[http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/28/3274107/windows-8-start-
me...](http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/28/3274107/windows-8-start-menu-samsung-
s-launcher-widget-app).

Well, I am, but at the expense of Microsoft.

I have no problem with the new system, but I am not the median Windows user.
Microsoft’s design by committee and telemetry data sound like self-parody, to
be perfectly honest.

And now that we’re at it, can’t we make a(nother) sacrificial offering for the
abomination that is the Skype app?

------
arocks
Microsoft has a history of maintaining backward compatibility even at the
expense of a less clean design. In that context, bringing back the start
button sounds very plausible.

------
skiman
There is a way to bring the start menuback without the hot corners, why is
everyone bs'ing

bring up charms bar and click the start button

I have no problems with usability when remoting on from my windows 7 pc

------
wluu
I doubt it'd happen.

Plus, the new head of Windows was the one that brought the Ribbon to Office.

If it did happen, it'd be just the button, which would then trigger the start
screen.

~~~
randallsquared
_it'd be just the button, which would then trigger the start screen._

That's the current behavior, except without the visible button.

------
mtgx
Will they stop forcing me to use all the Metro stuff while in desktop mode,
too? That's what I want to know. I installed Windows 8 on a laptop, and I
immediately felt the need to have the start button back and get rid of the
annoying "Charms", and also of the Metro start screen, which is completely
useless and space-wasteful in desktop mode.

But then I realized - why do I even bother with all these hacks, to make it
look like a more "regular" Windows, when I can just use Windows 7? Besides all
those annoyances, I didn't find that the desktop mode of Windows 8 offered me
any real advantages over Windows 7. It's more like a SP2 for Windows 7.

~~~
whalesalad
I really like the chrome and general UX enhancements in Windows 8. Aero from
Win 7 is hard for me to look at. My biggest frustration with Win8 is indeed
its lack of a traditional start-style desktop experience.

~~~
mtgx
Then just disable Aero.

