
Ask HN: Paid app to free and Patreon? - macappthrowaway
I’ve got a paid Mac app that was mildly successful for a time, but trickled off.  I’m considering making it free, and creating a Patreon account&#x2F;blog to talk about technical issues and let patrons ask for specific features.  Maybe it could even be open-source — I’m flexible.<p>I’d also be willing to sell sponsorships to companies, if any were interested (though I have no idea if any would be).  Everybody hates ads but done well I’ve seen them work, when they’re not annoying.<p>Another option is making the app free, and then using an IAP to enable advanced features.  Honestly, the part I hate most about that is the complexity I’d have to add to the software.  I’d rather just give everybody all the features, and let people who want to financially support me do that.  I don’t know how the economics would compare, though.<p>What other considerations should I have, for this type of change?  What am I forgetting?  What other alternatives should I consider, to try to monetize an app so I can keep working on it?  Has anyone done this, and how did it work out for you?
======
needz
I have a free social network app that makes $122/month on Patreon[0] (from 43
patrons). Userbase is about 3.4k with ~200 DAU. I offer in-app recognition and
the ability to vote monthly on what features I work on. I won't be quitting my
job, but it's nice to not have to pay for servers and marketing out of pocket.

0: [https://www.patreon.com/pindigo](https://www.patreon.com/pindigo)

~~~
mooreds
Thanks for sharing real world numbers. And congrats, sounds like you have a
success on your hands (not every project needs to be a home run, and like you
said, it's great to have it be a source of income rather than a drain).

------
drieddust
Derek Banas produces high quality educational videos[1] and he is not able to
meet a modest goal of $500 per month on Patreon[2].

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwRXb5dUK4cvsHbx-
rGzSgw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwRXb5dUK4cvsHbx-rGzSgw)

[2] [https://www.patreon.com/derekbanas](https://www.patreon.com/derekbanas)

This is just one data point but seems like when people have an option of not
to pay, they won't pay.

~~~
dangoor
Meanwhile, CGP Grey gets $19k+ every time he posts a video (though that's
become pretty rare!)

[https://www.patreon.com/cgpgrey](https://www.patreon.com/cgpgrey)

(Edit: I should note that I'm sure that Patreon has the same sort of long tail
that everything else does... unless one is doing something unique and notable
_and_ gets discovered, Patreon is likely to produce little revenue, just like
other revenue sources)

~~~
dharmab
Grey also has other revenue streams- Ad revenue from YouTube, YouTube Red,
podcast sponsorships, a merch store and some sort of office job related to
media consulting. He's not all-in on Patreon.

~~~
gallerdude
Source on the media consulting?

~~~
dharmab
[https://standard.tv/pages/about](https://standard.tv/pages/about)

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ohadron
First try to analyse what happened to your revenue stream - did something
break in the marketing funnel? New competitors? The problem your app solves
doesn't exist anymore? Incompatibility with newer hardware/OS?

Once you have the answer to that it will be easier to define possible paths
forward.

Patreon + blog is a totally different product which will in turn attract (or
not) a different market.

Another option for monetisation you didn't mention is a subscription plan,
which is what many apps do today (Just a few open right now on my computer -
Todoist, Notion, Slack, Sketch).

------
vbsteven
Last time I checked the creator of VueJS is making some money from Patreon.
But his monthly Patreon revenue is less than what a typical freelance software
dev makes and he's the creator of the second most popular frontend JS
framework, so I don't see that much potential for making a living on Patreon
from niche mac apps.

If your app is adding value I would keep charging real money for it. Maybe
check out a software subscription model for support and updates.

I like what Jetbrains is doing for their IDE's where you pay a fee for a
specific version and 1 year support & updates. After that 1 year you can
continue using the same version, or pay again to get another year of updates
and support.

~~~
ohadron
Evan You makes 180k/year just from Patreon, excluding additional gigs such as
speaking at conferences.
([https://www.patreon.com/evanyou/overview](https://www.patreon.com/evanyou/overview))

Some more about his business model: [https://blog.patreon.com/vue-js-creator-
evan-you](https://blog.patreon.com/vue-js-creator-evan-you)

~~~
vbsteven
Yes, and it took him 2 years as the developer of one of the biggest JS
frameworks with thousands of users to reach that level. And even then, over
80% of his Patreon comes from 3 backers at 2000/mo and 18 backers at 500/mo. I
assume those are all companies. The revenue he has from individual users is
peanuts.

~~~
tinus_hn
I hope Patreon doesn’t take a percentage out of that..

~~~
JshWright
Why wouldn't they...? Shouldn't they be compensated for the service they
provide?

~~~
tinus_hn
They don’t provide a thousand times as much of a service as they would if the
donation was $2.

~~~
JshWright
I'm sure Patreon's credit card processor is just as benevolent as you expect
Patreon to be...

~~~
tinus_hn
Do US people really pay monthly recurring $2000 donations using a credit card
if it takes a percentage fee?

~~~
JshWright
I don't know of any other way of paying Patreon...

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dvh
I have mildly successful Android app (10k installs, 150 DAU) with IAPs for
cosmetics and mini games and I show "ad" on every start to support me on
patreon. In last 3 months I made $15 via IAPs and $0 on patreon. I use patreon
as blogging platform on daily development progress but I think it's pointless
and I'll soon stop doing it, but I'll keep it there just in case.

------
wodenokoto
If you move to a Patreon model, it seems like what you will be selling is more
of a dev blog / newszine centered around a tool, rather than the actual tool.

If you are good at writing and teaching, maybe that is a good direction to
move.

> I’d rather just give everybody all the features, and let people who want to
> financially support me do that. I don’t know how the economics would
> compare, though.

Have you thought about the sublime text model? Give people unlimited
evaluation period with occasional nagging.

------
DrNuke
Maybe sell a code-like template of your app with a short tutorial for devs? If
your own app trickled off on the market, its direct value is marginal now and
clones will not hurt much while you get money from sharing knowledge & tricks.

------
conta
I have an open-source app called stretchly
([https://github.com/hovancik/stretchly](https://github.com/hovancik/stretchly))
and I allow people to support it via paypal or patreon.

I ask people to support me by becoming my patron on Patreon as Menu item.
Right now it brings me 11$/month
([https://www.patreon.com/hovancik](https://www.patreon.com/hovancik)) and it
goes up and down. I could do better by engaging more with people, I guess (in
past some people donated when I fixed their issue very quickly).

Over time, some people also donated on paypal (5-15$ a time).

I am thinking to add "premium" features: users can access them after auth via
patreon or github (if they contributed).

Premium features will be just some sugar, nothing that normal user could not
do.

I also have newsletter where I try to bring some app related stuff that people
might enjoy.

some tips:

\- watch for mentions of your app on social media and interact

\- ask for support, if people like your app they will help

\- being open-source also helps

~~~
humanetech
Nice project, conta! I just added it to awesome-humane-tech [0] in the Health
section.

[0] [https://github.com/engagingspaces/awesome-humane-
tech](https://github.com/engagingspaces/awesome-humane-tech)

~~~
conta
Thanks a lot!

------
bayesian_horse
I wouldn't recommend Patreon or anything similar in your situation. Basically
you need to compare your app income to the additional work it takes to keep
customers happy and buying. And at some point you might just as well open
source it and move on...

It seems as if Donations don't work for most Open Source projects. Even when
they do, it's often almost a B2B like relationship.

------
mch82
Can you share what people use your app for? Can you quantify “mildly
successful”, “for a time”, and “trickled off”?

------
saluki
I would look at adding new features and maybe adjusting pricing, test a sale
price for the new version.

What is your target audience? I would spend some time writing blog posts on
how your app can help them. Maybe give away some copies/keys on podcasts that
your target audience listen to.

If that doesn't spark sales maybe go free with IAP. I would do this as a last
resort. I think you'd do better being paid. Maybe introduce a free trial
period if you don't already.

I don't think ads or patreon will make any significant revenue.

------
nprz
I'm always confused why a dev would use Patreon. Wouldn't it be a fairly
simple task to set up your own website/blog with a donation feature and keep
100% of the donations?

~~~
JeremyBanks
I don’t donate to those. Almost nobody does. I donate when it’s through a
trusted service like Patreon. Many creators have observed this when they moved
over.

~~~
daveFNbuck
Patreon has had some pretty major fuck ups over the years. How can you
consider them a trusted service?

~~~
WJW
They have also facilitated many more donations that have gone extremely
smoothly. The choice here is between an entirely unproven (homemade) service
and one with an 99%+ successful service. It does not seem like a very hard
choice to me...

~~~
daveFNbuck
They have a 1% donation failure rate? That's terrible. I was just referring to
their recent data losses and terms of service changes. I'm much more willing
to trust PayPal at this point.

------
golergka
What's your primary motive in making the app open source? Personally, I would
open-source 90% of the app (for example, it's core functionality in console
form), but still leave it so you still have to buy the GUI packaged version
from the store or easily set up your own build environment. It would mean that
a developer can easily run your app for free, fork and fix issues, but a
typical user has to pay - so you retain your revenue source.

------
soylentgraham
If you're trying to make a living from the app (I don't think the post is too
clear), I found my only success with a unity plugin was to release it for
cheap/free to build users and charge for new features at freelance rates.

People who REALLY need features are businesses or projects who have money and
usually a deadline.

At one point I was making maybe 1k/month from sales and 3k in feature
inplementations. (Helps that I also freelance so not a big jump in terms of my
day to day flow) Not crazy, but I was also freelancing at the same time.

The real time drag is supporting the free users. The people paying for
features and using the plugin commercially were a lot more competent.

TLDR: build free reputation & word of mouth, then go B2B. Obviously depends on
the target audience

~~~
macappthrowaway
> If you're trying to make a living from the app (I don't think the post is
> too clear),

Agreed, I was ambiguous on this point. It would be nice to make a living from
it (of course!), but I've got other apps in my brain that need building, and
other types of work that I do, so it's not necessary. I don't have all my eggs
in this basket.

Let's say: in order to be more than a hobby, a program has to be financially
self-sustaining. For some software, that can mean enough to spend 10 hours a
week on it, and for other software, it might mean enough to hire a team of 50
people to work on it full-time. Below about 10 hours/week, though, and it
starts to lose the ability to be called self-sustaining. There's just not
enough hours to take on significant work.

> I found my only success with a unity plugin was to release it for cheap/free
> to build users and charge for new features at freelance rates.

This is a great and helpful data point.

------
danieltillett
Patreon only really works if you have a personal following. People need to
know that their contributions are going to someone real and who they respect.

------
bemmu
If you have a natural way to charge money, I would be surprised to see ads
work better than that. IAP may work even better though, but I can see how that
might be more work to add than you'd be willing to put in if it isn't making
much money anymore.

What I'd be most curious about is why were people discovering your app before,
why did that change?

------
sfaruque
Have you considered contacting the people behind Setapp
([https://setapp.com/developers](https://setapp.com/developers))

------
wild_preference
Ads in desktop software are dead. Also, just think of the amount of serious,
transient eyeball traffic you'd need which sounds like an unlikely demographic
for a Mac app. Especially if you think these same people would be interested
in your Patreon. You'd basically have to burn all goodwill to make a few
pennies off them.

The only reason ads make a little money on mobile is because of the lack of
adblocker penetration + low tech-savviness + compulsive mobile games. When was
the last time you even used a desktop app with ads?

Donations aren't a source of income. Though I encourage you to try a tip jar
like Patreon just to see how vanishingly impossible it is.

Sounds like you're still deciding if you even are trying to make money. But
make no mistake: you won't luck into money by writing cool blog posts and
building free features that people ask for.

Building a revenue channel into your application with IAP sounds like the only
thing that has a shot and the only thing that might align with your goals.

~~~
mikekchar
> Donations aren't a source of income. Though I encourage you to try a tip jar
> like Patreon just to see how vanishingly impossible it is.

While I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, I still wonder about if
Patreon might be a reasonable way to charge for services. There are at least a
few people making a living off of Patreon. Of course, I've not really heard of
anyone scaling it beyond that. It's possible to make a non-trivial amount of
money, though.

What I really wonder is whether or not you could somehow look at Patreon as a
normal payment processor for a recurring service. Possibly it's not
appropriate for a non-service related piece of software (why am I paying
monthly?). But if you had a service attached, I'm not really sure it's such a
bad idea. I seem to remember they take 5%, which is not _that_ bad as a
payment processor with the benefits they provide. In fact, that's essentially
what Youtube people are doing: sign up to my Patreon and I will make recurring
videos.

But, the main point is that "I might write blog posts and you get to vote on
new features" is not a business plan. Why do I want to spend a monthly fee?
Writing new features _might_ be a business plan (For example, Tarn Adams makes
between $7-8K a month on Patreon for his work on Dwarf Fortress). However, you
need to have an audience that wants new features and is willing to pay for
them.

~~~
gustavorg
This one for example:
[https://www.patreon.com/YandereDev](https://www.patreon.com/YandereDev) Used
to profit $5000 one year ago.

~~~
tenryuu
Used to sure, kid stopped using his time to develop games and just started
streaming in his free time. I only know people who consider this guy a joke
now

~~~
gustavorg
That depends on which subreddit are you reading. The correct one is
/r/yanderesimulator. The other one is just haters. If you check the devblog
you can see there are currently real and tangible development.

~~~
tenryuu
I don't use reddit, I personally know people that worked on the game

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jesterjester
I wonder if there is an app that handles the "VC" side like gofundme but for
software startup funding?

Patreon takes a huge chunk of money, so might not be ideal for this.

~~~
rofo1
Patreon takes 5% according to [https://support.patreon.com/hc/en-
us/articles/204606125-How-...](https://support.patreon.com/hc/en-
us/articles/204606125-How-do-you-calculate-fees-)

I don't think 5% is unreasonable for what they offer. It seems fitting.

~~~
jesterjester
I think it's unreasonable for my idea. They don't offer much.

