
Third-Biggest U.S. Coal Company Files for Bankruptcy - toomuchtodo
https://flatheadbeacon.com/2019/05/10/third-biggest-u-s-coal-company-files-bankruptcy/
======
johnnybowman
To add insult to injury, this is from the April 2019 Stanford law review:

"Almost half of all the coal produced in the United States is mined by
companies that have recently gone bankrupt. This Article explains how those
bankruptcy proceedings have undermined federal environmental and labor laws.
In particular, coal companies have used the Bankruptcy Code to evade
congressionally imposed liabilities requiring that they pay lifetime health
benefits to coal miners and restore land degraded by surface mining. Using
financial information reported in filings to the Securities and Exchange
Commission and in the companies’ reorganization agreements, we show that
between 2012 and 2017, four of the largest coal companies in the United States
succeeded in shedding almost $5.2 billion of environmental and retiree
liabilities."

[https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/print/article/bankruptcy-a...](https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/print/article/bankruptcy-
as-bailout/)

~~~
wz1000
This is why limited liability is a terrible idea, just another way to
privatize the gains and socialize the losses.

When you buy a stake in a corporation(especially one that comes with voting
rights), and the corporation goes on to cause damages to life, property, the
environment etc, you should be held personally liable in proportion with your
share(or voting share).

I can see the argument for limited liability in case of debts: the issuer of
the debt has the opportunity to do due diligence and take the risk of
bankruptcy into account. But in the case of damages, I don't see how limited
liability can ever be justified.

~~~
pjc50
We've had limited liability for centuries, and it's completely critical for
getting people to invest in businesses. Without it, nobody dares open anything
larger than a lemonade stand, unless they're already extremely wealthy.

~~~
Singletoned
So what do you think happened BEFORE limited liability companies existed? And
what do you think happens in countries that don't have limited liability
companies? And what about all the people who create businesses without
creating a limited liability company?

~~~
ben_w
Feudalism, limited economic growth, and one of {insurance, personal
bankruptcy, luck} respectively.

I believe law firms still go for the insurance approach in the UK.

~~~
Scoundreller
A lot of countries don’t let their professionals incorporate. Usually for the
reason that victims of professionals shouldn’t end up paying the costs of
their victimization.

It’s also why you’ll see professionals put their home in their spouse’s name,
just in case.

------
epistasis
Within the next few decades, we will see the oil majors facing a similar fate,
unless they've transitioned to other energy tech.

New technology can seem impossibly expensive, but if it's on a consistent tech
curve of decreasing costs, it's impossibly expensive one day and then the only
option the next. There's a non-linear transition when the new tech becomes the
cheaper one.

We are seeing electrical energy storage following that curve. In the right
geographic locations solar and wind are far cheaper sources of energy than
anything else. If hydrogen from renewable energy, or methanates hydrogen (ie
natural gas made from renewable energy) becomes cheap, it will eliminate all
oil extraction except for things like plastics. And without selling diesel and
gasoline, will it be worth it to pull out the oil instead of synthesizing
plastics?

The world is changing, and there are currently a ton of investments in natural
resources that will never be extracted.

~~~
yodsanklai
> Within the next few decades, we will see the oil majors facing a similar
> fate,

I'm wondering what is the consensus about this statement. AFAIK solar and wind
may be cheap at the margin, in specific areas, when they are supported by
coal/nuclear. But can we reasonably think they can replace fossil fuel at a
large scale in a near future? I have little knowledge on this issue, but I
heard reasonable experts [1,2] saying it was doubtful.

[1] [https://www.withouthotair.com](https://www.withouthotair.com) [2]
[https://jancovici.com/en/energy-
transition/renewables/100-re...](https://jancovici.com/en/energy-
transition/renewables/100-renewable-electricity-at-no-extra-cost-a-piece-of-
cake/)

~~~
epistasis
It's so weird to me that people read "Without Hot Air" and think that it is
pessimistic about renewables. It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about
here. It was written long ago. Read it again, and insert modern numbers, and
the unbelievably expensive scenarios are starting to become the reasonable
ones.

Add in other tech like HVDC, and as I said in my post, conversion of
electrical energy into chemical energy storage in hydrogen or methane, and it
all becomes quite feasible.

Why is coal dying over the past 5 years? Because huge government subsidies
kick started fracking technology which ended up making US natural gas
incredibly cheap, as the tech descended the cost curve.

Why are solar and wind the cheapest (non-dispatchable) electrons in much of
the US? Because we are far enough along on the tech curve.

Why are solar+storage and wind+storage project bids for 2022 and 2023 coming
in under the cost of combined cycle gas turbines? Because lithium ion
batteries are transitioning to cheap from impossibly expensive, particularly
as vehicle demand drives massive scale up in lithium ion battery production.

All that stuff in "without the hot air" that made it hard in the UK is coming
within reach. And the UK is pretty much one of the worst possible situations
for solar, one of the main legs of renewable tech, and it will still work out.
Offshore deep sea wind is getting super cheap and it has much better
intermittency properties, making it require even less daily storage . seasonal
storage still would be great to minimize overprovisioning of generators, but
how much we overprovision versus how much we store will just be a cost
optimization between the relative prices.

------
jugg1es
My wife is a coal market analyst and says that Cloud Peak is just late to the
chapter 11 game. The rest of them filed Chapter 11 in 2016.

~~~
dalanmiller
Cloud peak?

~~~
planteen
Cloud Peak Energy, the 3rd biggest coal company in the title.

------
hodder
Is there an actual possibility of burning coal in a”clean way” through any
technology now or in the future?

The current term “clean coal” is obviously BS, but is it possible either now
or in the future, but just uneconomic?

It is an immense resource if we could extract the energy of coal in a clean
way.

~~~
Joakal
Yes. Burn it inside building and capture CO2. As it stands, the gas waste is
externalised.

Imagine if nuclear reactors were allowed to dump waste in air/river.

~~~
CydeWeys
And do what with the CO2? Burning coal releases a lot of it.

~~~
toss1
Capture it and bury it underground turning it into rock

[https://phys.org/news/2019-05-iceland-carbon-dioxide-
cleaner...](https://phys.org/news/2019-05-iceland-carbon-dioxide-cleaner-
air.html)

Capture it and convert it to fuel [https://phys.org/news/2018-10-catalyst-
door-carbon-dioxide-c...](https://phys.org/news/2018-10-catalyst-door-carbon-
dioxide-capture.html)

Capture it and convert it to plastics
[https://phys.org/news/2018-11-co2-ingredients-fuel-
plastics-...](https://phys.org/news/2018-11-co2-ingredients-fuel-plastics-
food.html)

etc...

~~~
neuronic
The fact that none of this is economical makes this fairly difficult to do.

~~~
yellow_postit
“Economical” evaluation right now, in the US, is before the true cost of
carbon emissions are priced in. Once/If there’s a real carbon tax the economic
viability on these may change.

I personally believe that in addition to pricing carbon governments are going
to have to self fund massive sequestration projects as well to avoid
catastrophic change.

------
tebruno99
I like how stories like this always leave out corruption and mismanagement of
the mines themselves. Mines are a hot spot for upper management and owner
corruption.

~~~
yellow_postit
More so than other industries? If so, any source material to learn more?

~~~
twright
Historically, coal is an industry filled with -to put it lightly- labor
disputes due to exploitative conditions [1][2].

Today, the industry in decline by any definition and as companies try to awl
out some sort of profit they cut corners which create unsafe conditions. When
accidents happen, the company will skirt responsibility to the very end
(someone else has a nice link here [3]). The "Last Week Tonight" on coal from
a few years ago (start at 8:39[4]) goes through some rather aggressive coal
executives who don't want to fairly compensate workers. Here are a few recent
coal disasters you can read about: [5,6]

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_Wars)
[2]:
[https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-w...](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-
working-class/ch11.htm) [3]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19905967](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19905967)
[4]: [https://youtu.be/aw6RsUhw1Q8?t=519](https://youtu.be/aw6RsUhw1Q8?t=519)

[5]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Big_Branch_Mine_disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Big_Branch_Mine_disaster)
[6]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sago_Mine_disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sago_Mine_disaster)

------
tty2300
Seems like this is to be expected more and more. From what I have heard coal
is only cheaper when you already have the coal power plants built but when you
are starting fresh renewables make more sense.

~~~
sundvor
Someone needs to tell the currently sitting Australian government, whose very
own (now, not then - they are on high rotation) prime minister brought a lump
of coal into parliament in 2017 and said "Don’t be afraid, don’t be scared, it
won’t hurt you. It’s coal."

~~~
testrun
Somebody should also tell the current government in Queensland. Currently
royalties is over $4 billion. They should start looking at alternative income.

~~~
sundvor
If they've been putting this transient income aside in a fund for the past 30
years then they'll be good for a while when it trickles down.

/s :P

------
hsnewman
Don't believe politicians when they promise they will change industries. In
our free market society, only economic conditions will change the market. This
is very relevant with our current news about tariffs.

------
qrbLPHiKpiux
They are legally using our on-the-books bankruptcy laws.

If you don’t like it, tell your senator or representative. Go out and vote.
This country’s voter turnout is dismal.

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Causality1
Good. Leave that nasty shit in the ground where it belongs.

------
erikpukinskis
When Trump said he was going to bring back coal jobs, he meant the bankruptcy
lawyers.

------
tony_cannistra
Coal companies folding, robots taking Amazon warehouse jobs –– it's a week of
future economic pain foreshadowing on HN.

~~~
jefflombardjr
Coal companies folding is hardly economic pain, just opportunity for solar and
wind.

~~~
billsmithaustin
It’s economic pain for coal miners.

~~~
Gibbon1
Economic pain for coal miners is a political issue.

You could for instance encourage solar companies to hire ex coal miners and
pay them good wages.

~~~
od1nos
Wish it was that easy, you can't just reschool a coalminer into an entirely
different profession 10 years before their retirement.

~~~
adventured
You can easily skill shift a coal miner into eg the natural gas industry.
Including at 10 years prior to retirement. I've known at least a dozen miners
that transitioned to natural gas, in the greater Marcellus shale region.

When shifting an experienced miner to the natural gas industry, the problem
isn't education, it's replacement pay. They're usually technically,
industrially competent people, and are well suited to the oil and natural gas
industries as far as ease of skill adaptation goes. It's something our
government/s should be pursuing aggressively (except usually the states where
the coal industry exists don't want to go against those jobs and actively
encourage that shift). If done correctly, you could make the job shift from
coal to other energy industries far easier, buffering the labor hit, and drain
the coal industry of the labor it needs to operate (accelerating its demise).

~~~
macintux
Replacement pay and _relocation_. Asking an older blue collar worker to move
away from family and friends to another state, more or less involuntarily, is
much harder than encouraging a young tech worker to move to, say, California.

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isaacg
Good. One of many, hopefully.

~~~
dang
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

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twayback
MAGA will save this! Trump will make coal mandatory in every home! switch off
the heating! lets make coal great again :D

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appleshore
Left and right should listen to Bill Gates:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xe3BWPsBTU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xe3BWPsBTU)

~~~
CardenB
Can you please post the full talk if you’re going to cherry pick sound bites
from bill gates

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OrgNet
That's good but there are many existing coal companies that could make up for
the missing coal.
[https://www.eia.gov/coal/annual/pdf/table10.pdf](https://www.eia.gov/coal/annual/pdf/table10.pdf)

~~~
jussij
While that is correct, the article suggests the market is seeing reduced
demand _as utility companies increasingly turn to gas-fired generation and
renewable energy for electricity_.

For such a large coal producer to be struggling with that lower demand (and
hence the lower price) suggests most of the sector will also be struggling
with those adverse market forces.

~~~
ddebernardy
I suspect you're giving them too big a benefit of a doubt. It's equally likely
that the coal company's owners have decided they've milked the cow for as much
as they could and can now shut it down before liabilities (clean-up costs +
retirements) catch up with them.

~~~
eigenstuff
This is exactly what's happening and it's not even the first time.

