
Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview - kvonhorn
https://kvonhorn.github.io//2018/06/27/dont_provide_contacts_until_last_interview.html
======
wonderwonder
I got an email from a local recruiter a few weeks ago and stepped outside
during my lunch break to give her a call. On the initial phone call she asked
me where I worked currently. After the call I stepped back into my work where
I sit back to back with my manager. No more than 5 minutes later his phone
rings, its the recruiter calling to see if they have any need of her services.
I emailed her while he was on the phone with the recruiter and told her I was
not interested and to please remove me from her list for all future positions.
That was a stressful 5 minutes.

~~~
Pxtl
... is there Yelp for recruiters? Because I'd want to know a recruiter pulls
stunts like that _before_ I work with them.

~~~
ztjio
Have you ever seen Yelp reviews for car salespeople?

Recruiters are the used car salespeople of the hiring world. There’s no point
in a review system where everyone averages out to 0 stars.

~~~
mandelbrotwurst
Strongly disagree. I hope you are being hyperbolic. While there is certainly a
wide range in competency and the level of value provided by recruiters, many
of them are MUCH better than zero stars.

~~~
asfdsfggtfd
Yes but the unscrupulous ones will be happy to give and receive fake reviews.
The more honest ones won't. So it will be hard to tell the difference between
a bad recruiter (fake positive and real negative reviews) and a good recruiter
(real positive and fake negative reviews).

~~~
mikekchar
It's actually really easy. My standard test for potential recruiters: Tell me
something about myself. This takes a tiny amount of work -- anybody who has my
email address can google me and find a huge amount of stuff. A recruiter who
is not bothered to do that will not be bothered to find a job that's good for
me.

When I find a good recruiter, I stick with them (as long as I'm shopping in
the area that they deal with). I make sure they know that. If a recruiter is
good enough that they can value a long term relationship as opposed to
frantically trying to meet their sales targets every month, then they are a
good recruiter.

The downside is that there are practically no good recruiters ;-). If I'm
seriously looking for a job, I look as hard for recruiters as I do for a job.
Often I find the job before the recruiter.

------
patorjk
> I do know that my manager called me up pissed off about the phone call he’d
> received, and told me to not use him as a reference in the future.

It's also important for your references to know that they're your references
ahead of time. You may think you have a good relationship with someone only to
discover that they aren't a reliable positive reference. People also don't
like being caught off guard.

~~~
ageitgey
This is so important!

Story time:

I once hired someone as a Mid/Senior Dev at a large company in SV who had
strong dev skills. Everything seemed great at first and we were very excited
to have this person join the team.

I respected this dev and had no personal issues with them. Our interactions
were positive. However this person quit suddenly after maybe two weeks because
they didn't like having to justify their technical approach on their very
first project to other team members. They just wanted to work alone and not
interact with anyone else.

More power to this dev for seeking out their preferred work environment - I
totally respect that! - but it wasn't exactly a positive experience for us. We
spent weeks and weeks with Recruiting/HR and back and forth on offers to
finally end up with someone who quit without any warning after mere days.

And of course I get a phone call a few weeks later where this dev (without
contacting me in any way) has listed me as a reference for their new job. What
do they think I am going to say? "Yes, during the multiple days this person
worked with me before they quit, they seemed smart?"

Please don't sabotage yourself like that. Check with your references first!

~~~
trevor-e
Are you legally allowed to mention that? I thought references could only
verify if you worked for the company, or otherwise risk being sued. Maybe
that's a myth? Regardless, it's pretty odd he would put your company down as a
reference after only staying two weeks.

~~~
magic_beans
References can say whatever they want.

~~~
sundaeofshock
References can be (and have been) sure for giving a review that keeps a person
from getting a job.

If I’m in a position where I can’t give a good reference, I don’t give a
reference at all.

~~~
fourthark
Which is probably a good policy for a lot of other reasons.

------
reureu
I got a call from an external recruiter: "I have a candidate who would be a
great fit for your company." I'm just a lowly data scientist with no hiring
power, and at that job the entire data science team was quitting. So, I
mentioned that I didn't think the team was growing since it seemed to be
actively shrinking with no new reqs that I was aware of.

Recruiter immediately turned it around and said they could represent me and
asked me to send them an (editable, e.g., Microsoft Word document) resume.

Nope nope nope nope nope. I'm not giving you a resume that you can modify
however you see fit, only to cold call and cold email it around to random
people you find on linkedin.

~~~
ajross
> Nope nope nope nope nope. I'm not giving you a resume that you can modify
> however you see fit, only to cold call and cold email it around to random
> people you find on linkedin.

But... that's exactly the services a recruiter provides. _Someone_ needs to
make those calls if you want a new job, unless you feel that you're such a
catch that you can rely exclusively on networking with former coworkers to
find you new positions. Most people rely on recruiters to grease the social
wheels needed to land them interviews.

I mean, it's not a glamorous profession, nor noble, nor particularly
honorable. But don't indulge the conceit that recruiters are parasites. They
do jobs you don't want to, so that you don't have to.

~~~
electricslpnsld
> rely exclusively on networking with former coworkers to find you new
> positions

Maybe not exclusively, but having a strong network is one of (if not the) best
ways to stay gainfully employed. The best jobs I’ve had were found through
former coworkers, friends from conferences, or folks I’ve corresponded with on
technical issues. Knowing and being respected by someone internal to a company
typically bypasses the first two or three interview steps, insulates you from
petty interviewers to a large degree, and overall greases the hiring wheels.
Keeping in touch with former coworkers and cultivating friendships through
conferences pays off tremendously!

~~~
tragic
It's very helpful, yes, for your third or fourth job. People fresh out of
school - or going into a career change, or moving to a new city - typically do
not have much of a 'professional network', at least of any relevance.

I've had good experiences and bad with recruiters - the bad ones, fortunately,
from the employer's side of the table, although they can't have been good for
the candidates in that case either.

------
duxup
Since I'm looking for a job these days I saw a recruiter post a story on
LinkedIn. The story was about this TERRIBLE TREND of some workers "ghosting"
recruiters. They describe a process where a recruiter talks to a prospective
employee, the prospective employee might even interview with the company. ...
and then the prospective employee stops responding to emails, phone calls, any
messages.

It was theorized that these darned menials just don't know how to behave.

I couldn't help but think that the whole article was some sort of recruiter
trolling thing because outside of jobs that I've gotten in the past ... every
recruiter has ghosted me. Amusing that they'd complain about it themselves.

Talking to or working with recruiters is just a constant pain. They don't know
anything about the actual technical side of my job (those that say they do
know even less it seems) and I have to do this dance with them to fit their
expectations and such.

Can I please talk to the technical guy now? It will take us maybe 5 min to
know if we should keep talking or not...

~~~
beckler
A few years ago, I decided to try working with a recruiter. I had never worked
with one before, and I wasn't sure what to expect.

But the first thing the guy did was spam my resume to like 60 something
different companies. Eventually I decided not to work with him, and he warned
me that if I got hired by any of the companies he spammed within 6 months, he
was entitled to some sort of payment. I didn't know who he sent it out to, or
if he was even telling the truth, so I just held off on getting a new job for
a while.

~~~
gmiller123456
You're not required to pay him, obviously, but that doesn't mean you're
"free". A lot of companies will only pay a referral or fee if a recruiter
brings them new people they don't know about. So those 60 companies who
received your resume may have already filled the position it was sent in for,
but they still entered your information into their database and keep your
resume on file. So if/when you start working with a legitimate recruiter, they
may not get paid as much or not at all. And obviously once the recruiter
realizes that they may not push hard to get you the job, or even steer you
towards other companies that will pay full price.

I had a somewhat similar situation happen. A company I wanted to work for had
a place on their website to apply for jobs, and I found one I was interested
in and applied for. I never heard from them. A friend of mine who worked there
eventually asked me about another opening, and they had a referral program
where he'd get a few $k. After he talked to HR they said he'd get no referral
since I was already in their system. I told him to ask why they never
contacted me and he said their response was "Oh, we pretty much never look at
applications submitted online".

It didn't strike me at the time as to how shady that conduct was until later.
Fortunately I went somewhere else anyway.

------
TamDenholm
Being a contractor in the UK for the last 13 years i quickly learned when i
first started that any recruiter that asks for references before they've even
sent the CV to the client is a lying cheating scumbag and will get told
outright where to go.

All they are doing it looking for leads.

~~~
vosper
Recruiters in the UK are much sleazier than in the US, in my experience.

~~~
madeofpalk
This goes for Australia, considering most tech recruiters in Australia are
from the UK for some reason.

~~~
justasitsounds
IT recruitment in Australia doesn't require a tertiary education, fluent(ish)
English is a must and the job is relatively highly paid if you're
good/sociopathic enough.

There are also a lot of vacancies as the working holiday visas rotate the
backpackers in and out - hence all the cold-calling, cheeky, chirpy cockneys

------
jrockway
I've never had anyone call my references. The most anyone has ever wanted is a
W-2 form to prove I worked there.

I think it would be kind of unusual. What's the incentive to give an unbiased
reference for free? If I didn't like someone, I'd say "oh yeah, they're
great", because it's not my problem and I don't want to be held accountable
for the person not getting a job. If they are great, I'd say the same thing,
of course. The truly calculating individual would get a request for a
reference and think "wow, I could poach this person from the recruiter by
giving them a poor reference and hiring them for less than their market
value."

I just don't see how references are A Thing. Maybe I'm just cynical.

~~~
Kluny
The higher you rise in your career, and the better companies you work for, the
more you'll find your references are checked. When I applied for a part-time
Christmas season job at a Photos with Santa booth last year, no one checked my
references. For my current salaried job, they checked every single one (I gave
four).

~~~
defen
What is the downside to just always giving a positive review, though? To
rephrase the original question - this is recruiter/company A calling a person
who works at company B to see if someone is suitable for company A. If you
just always give a nice review, what is the downside for you? Unless you had
genuine personal issues with the candidate, why wouldn't you just always give
a good review? If the person doesn't work out, what recourse does the
recruiter / company A have against you?

~~~
subroutine
I don't think the recruiter seeking a positive or negative review, so much as
simply verifying claims made by the candidate or their resume. Something
like...

> Tell me a little about Jim's day-to-day

> Sure... Jim is an above average junior software dev...

> Sorry you say _junior_ or _senior_ dev? Does Jim have team management roles?

You can give a glowing review, but depending how how Jim portrayed himself,
the review can be taken by the recruiter as a net neg/pos. To directly address
your question - I don't think there's much down-side for a reference to always
provide a positives reviews. Just keep in mind that an experience recruiter
will probably realize this too (they've probably been burned before), and have
some clever ways to ferret out the key info they're after.

~~~
jrockway
These questions, to me, sound like leaking confidential information about my
current employer. I'd personally refer questions like that to HR.

~~~
subroutine
If you were this person's boss, you'd refer these simple questions to HR?

------
BadassFractal
We once lost a super promising candidate at the references stage. Guy was a
star, we were going to pay him 180 base for a remote position from somewhere
fairly affordable. That was a lot to us as a small startup, more than any
other IC was being paid at the time. He loved the team, the product, the
mission, the comp etc.

We called his previous manager (not his current one), one of his references,
to ask him about his experience with the candidate. His manager spoke very
highly of his past direct report, we were quite happy with the outcome of the
call.

Except his manager then proceeded to counter-offer the guy with 240, once he
realized he was on the market, and the guy was like "Hey guys, you're awesome,
the mission is meaningful and all that, but I got a family, I HAVE to take the
extra 60k, sorry". That was one day away from him signing. We couldn't afford
to counter-offer, so that's that.

Lesson: the engineering hiring climate is vicious right now, you might not
want ask for references from your star candidates to avoid getting a last
second poaching. Backdoor references in general are a lot better, but you
still risk disclosing information that will lead to them getting poached.

------
oldcynic
Hard Won Recruiter Bullet Points:

Never, ever, give out a contact _unless you want to burn that contact._ That
means no references until offer, no answering the mid-conversation "oh, I
forgot, who's (CTO|your manager) there", no giving them the name of someone
more suitable that might be interested. (Forward the role and recruiter to
your maybe interested friend)

Send PDF CV only. Word docs will be branded, changed, and in some cases leave
you sat in an interview where you don't recognise the CV and skills that got
you there. Yes, this happened. We compared my CVs in interview (I always take
along a paper copy).

Confirm rates or salary and conditions in interview. See above.

------
JavaAndChill
I used to work as a recruiter (not anymore, terrible industry), and one of my
colleagues actually sent a candidates CV to their current employer without
their knowledge or consent. Things like these happen, because many external
recruiters don’t take enough time for you when you’ve only just started
working with you and they don’t know whether you’re “loyal” to them or just
want to know your market value.

And yes, references are used as leads. We were advised to call the companies
and offer our services and to headhunt the people. There are SO many black
sheep in this industry (such as my old company), and very few trustworthy
ones.

~~~
Zelphyr
What are the trustworthy ones?

~~~
JavaAndChill
To be honest, I don’t know. I just assume there must be some doing a good job
within all this chaos.

~~~
pavel_lishin
"Somewhere under all this shit must be a pony."

------
tqi
1) Your professional references may be better qualified for the role than you

This is pretty far fetched. Anyone who would be willing to go behind your back
like that probably isn't someone you should list as a reference. Also nothing
about being done with the last interview prevents the company from going
behind your back like that anyway...

2) You’re giving the recruiter something of great value in exchange for very
little

In my experience I have never seen house recruiters who add contact info for
reference checks into the recruiting CRM. It seems like the kind of idea that
sounds great/effective in theory but in practice is too much hassle. Maybe
this only applies to 3rd party firms?

3) You may burn your references

I don't think you should ever hand out contact info for someone (email/phone
#/etc) without clearing it with them first, full stop.

~~~
hardlianotion
No need to assume nefariousness on behalf of the reference. Most shady
recruiters will just tell you a friend referred them.

~~~
tqi
True. I guess the author's advice really should have been "don't give out
reference info without checking with the people first", but that probably
doesn't make it to the top of HN

------
pmoriarty
I never, ever, ever provide my references to recruiters.

My references only ever go directly to the hiring company.

------
CM30
On the topic of the first one, am I the only one who finds it strange that a
recruiter could 'poach' one of your references? I mean, maybe I'm unusual or
it works differently over here, but from what I hear, most people's references
in the UK seem to be managers or business owners for the companies they worked
with, not the normal employees.

Do people usually give their 'normal' colleagues as references in the US?

~~~
Naritai
If you've been working at a large company for several years, there may be very
few people outside your company who know your work well enough to give a
meaningful reference. Then, you can't give a manager's name, since they will
almost certainly tell your own manager what is going on. That leaves only your
co-workers.

~~~
CM30
Oh, you're talking about someone applying for a job and using a reference from
their current company. I always thought people used references from companies
they don't work at anymore.

~~~
cimmanom
Or your references might be a manager from your previous position plus a co-
worker from a previous position plus a manager from the position before that.
The co-worker from the previous position might end up being recruited.

That said, if my reference applied for the same position as me and got it,
whatever, more power to them, and I probably wasn't going to get it anyway.
There are enough jobs out there for both of us, and I'd rather at least know
that one went to someone I like.

~~~
wool_gather
Plus, this colleague now is well-placed to recommend/recruit you for the next
open position!

------
vlozko
All these conversions bashing recruiters seem a bit... unfair? I work at a
company that almost exclusively does their own recruiting. There's no
commission structure or misplaced incentives to get someone in, no matter how
bad they could be. As someone who's been interviewing regularly, I frequently
interact with some of them and they are very genuine people.

I've at one point had a recruiter whom I've had a delightful time working
with. None of my interactions with her felt like a sales pitch and when it
came time to interview, she provided a wealth of resources on how to perform
well on phone screens and how to answer the usual algorithmic questions. On
the other hand, I've had a recruiter who emailed me with their entire message
in the subject line. Never a message body. He always made it seem like there
was some amazing opportunity I was missing out on but the 1 or 2 times I
responded out of curiosity, it was another run of the mill individual
contributor jobs. I told him I felt like I was being hustled, hoping to get
the hint across that I didn't want to work with him. Didn't work. So I told
him I'm not interested in any job that doesn't provide a minimum of some
outrageous salary and a very senior title. Haven't heard from him since.

I guess I can agree with the sentiment that there are enough bad apples in the
industry to spoil it as a whole. Also, avoid Talener in Boston. Biggest bunch
of hustlers I've ever seen.

~~~
gmiller123456
>All these conversions bashing recruiters seem a bit... unfair

It probably is fair at least to the recruiters they've interacted with. But
good recruiters do exist. I used to date someone who was a recruiter, and her
complaints about her work showed it was an extremely cut throat business. Not
being the cut throat type of person herself, she had to deal with enormous
amounts of stress of people screwing her over and pressuring her to do things
she didn't agree with. She found great joy in helping people find work they
would like, and absolutely loved talking to her recruits and business
partners. She eventually couldn't take in anymore and left the industry, but
she still interacts with a lot of people she placed even three years later
just to keep in touch.

------
cletus
So the first thing I looked for in this post was whether this was based on
experience in the UK because my experience (when I lived there) was absolutely
godawful. Like soul-destroying awful. And honestly I don't think the rest of
the EU (+Switzerland) was much better. I see no mention of it however.

Tactics I saw included fake interviews (cancelled at the last minute; in some
cases with places I knew people so I definitively found out they were fake),
being forwarded to positions without consent, modifying my resume, pocketing
pay raises from the employer (this was a contracting ie hourly/daily rate type
deal), being told they were putting me forward for something when they didn't.
Honestly the list goes on.

So it's been more than a decade since I lived in London and I STILL get emails
from some of these agencies (luckily to a now largely abandoned email
address).

Nowadays, at least in tech, I wonder if you should ever talk to a recruiter at
all. The big guys do direct recruitment. Smaller startups tend to be via
existing relationships and word-of-mouth (at least that's my impression). And
in my experience company recruiters are orders of magnitude better than
independent recruiters.

On the subject of references, it's been awhile since I've had to deal with
this, but the principle of being prudent with revealing your references
resonates. In the past I've only done this as part of the company's due
diligence after accepting an offer. No one is going to seriously check your
references when you're still a resume in a pile. I can totally see recruiters
cold calling references.

------
drtz
I once had a recruiter cold-call my employer's main line, ask for me by name
and falsely claim to the receptionist that they had already been in contact
with me about a position. The whole office heard about it within 30 minutes.

Not a good way to make friends.

------
xivzgrev
I have another point to add to article: reference fatigue. If someone
volunteers to be a reference you don't want them to have to talk to more than
a few companies. If you are giving them out at the beginning that is
potentially a lot of requests.

I've personally never been asked until after on-site but if i had I would do
what this article says: offer to do so after on-site and walk away if that's
not ok.

------
NetOpWibby
I wish I knew this eons ago. I’m sure there are some good ones...somewhere.
But, FUCK RECRUITERS.

~~~
JavaAndChill
Former recruiter here (not a fan of the industry either), just interested:
what happened?

~~~
NetOpWibby
Lots of lying and that lying leading me to not getting paid or putting me in
unfortunate situations.

Meeting times for potential employers, length of engagement for contracts,
date of pay, and so on.

Being a young, hopeful professional leads to being taken advantage of because
at our core, we all believe that people act in good faith. The more I worked
with them (and the older I got), I've learned that once money is in play all
bets are off.

~~~
heavenlyblue
One gentle recruiter has agreed to a job for me. Then tried to blame me for
his inability to hire me.

~~~
NetOpWibby
Sounds about right.

------
jopsen
Is there really any reason not to just walk around an external recruiter?

I had an external recruiter contact me for a position at big-tech-giant, but
if was really going to apply for it, why wouldn't I just apply at their
careers page? Or email a former co-worker who works at big-tech-giant and ask
to be hooked up with a recruiter?

I'm curious, what are the upsides to working with an external recruiter?

~~~
JavaAndChill
Often people one hear about a job because it’s advertised by a recruiter and
they don’t tell you the company’s name until you agree not to apply there
yourself.

A recruiter can control the process better than an applicant can, and they
prepare you for every interview, and (try to) influence the process by selling
in your advantages after the interview.

They’re also often in contact with the hiring manager instead of the HR
person.

Those might be reasons to work with them, but there’s also a good amount of
reasons why it’s not a great idea

------
noitsnot
Here's a company that did it to me: Sapphire Technologies U.S., a Randstad
Company

------
tejtm
Why would you ever give references to a recruiter? They are not employers who
have offered you a position you have decided to take.

~~~
noitsnot
Job offer is at hand and they are required to reference check based on the
agreement they made with the company. That is part of the leg-work for the
fee.

------
chrisabrams
What do you do when the recruiter contacts your current employer before you
even provide references?

~~~
inertiatic
Lawyer up if you can afford it?

~~~
ghostly_s
This is certainly scummy but how is it illegal?

~~~
EpicEng
You don't have to break a law to be ruled against in civil court (in the US),
but I agree with you; I don't see a case here (even checked with a lawyer who
happens to be visiting.)

~~~
dragonwriter
> You don't have to break a law to be ruled against in civil court (in the US)

Yes, you do; civil courts enforce civil law, which is actually law.

~~~
jopsen
If you ask and confirm that they won't contact your current employer, then
might it not fall under contract law?

------
alexpotato
In my experience, recruiters who are too honest generally end up getting you a
bad deal or not fighting hard enough for you.

On the other end of the spectrum, the really slimy ones are so dishonest that
the deal doesn't happen at all.

The best ones have enough honesty that you can at least bet on them giving you
an accurate general picture and they are just slimy enough to do and say what
needs to be said to get you the job.

------
kogir
It might also be prudent to register a few numbers in Twilio and have them
forward to your references. Then you know if they were called and by whom, all
while keeping your references' real numbers private.

------
roburtguy
Personally, I don't think this is that big a deal. If you're a good engineer,
there really is no shortage of opportunities. If you're not a good engineer,
then that is the root problem that should be fixed. For me, recruiters are
just people who helps me do the logistics work so that I never had to apply
for a job.

"To this day, I don’t know what the recruiter said to my former manager, but I
do know that my manager called me up pissed off about the phone call he’d
received, and told me to not use him as a reference in the future."

I think that's a bad manager. As a manager, especially in tech, you should
definitely expect your co-workers to take the best opportunity available. As a
professional, the manager him/herself should also take the best opportunity
available. It's people's careers, be professional about it.

~~~
alex_anglin
As a good engineer, surely you recognize that topics such as peoples careers
are poorly defined by binary classification...

~~~
roburtguy
Well of course, but I mean that as if you're not confident enough to recommend
other engineers because of competition, then the root cause is probably your
own standard of expertise that you have set that you have not met and should
meet.

------
ransom1538
Why do people use recruiters? %99 percent of the time you can figure out who
the company is they are representing. Often recruiter sites will even _list_
the companies they represent. EVERY startup I have worked for that does
hiring, _hates_ paying the %20+ markup for a hire. We would much rather give
that cash to the new employee and use it to be more competitive. If there are
two candidates with equal skill sets, one is $130k (recruiter (20k) + their
salary (110k) ) and the other is $110 (just their salary) -- often management
will lean towards the guy for 110k in a strapped for cash startup. They view
you as a $130k a year employee NOT a 110k a year employee.

~~~
fphhotchips
Competent recruiters with good reputations and connections are like gold -
especially in markets that aren't "Software Developer in Coastal USA". They
know the state of the market, the main players, who is looking, who is good to
work for, what the pay is going to be and whether applying is worth your time.
They understand the value of establishing relationships with good people and
will work to ensure a good fit for all involved, because the only thing better
than a $20k bonus for getting someone into a job is getting a $30k bonus a
couple years later by doing barely any work because both sides of the deal
came to you.

This is almost exactly like the difference between good, high value sales, and
telemarketing. One is a relationships game, one is a commodified numbers game.
Don't be a commodity, and you won't be treated like one.

~~~
heavenlyblue
OK, in terms of this - anyone from the UK had any actual experience of this
caliber?

------
_Codemonkeyism
As a manager I've worked with many recruiters.

One called me offering a candidate. 5min later he made calls to my team to
offer them a new job.

------
mathattack
Isn’t this common knowledge? It takes time to properly prepare them and you
don’t want to do that casually.

And if it’s a headhunter...

\- Be explicit that they need your permission to send their resume somewhere
else.

\- Don’t tell them where else you’re interviewing.

------
daphneokeefe
Wonderful advice from the community here. I always defer providing references
as long as possible.

There have been a number of occasions when I thought the outside recruiter
wanted to make the reference calls because they wanted to make sure a weak
reference wouldn't interfere with them making the sale. The hiring HR is happy
for the recruiter to do the legwork. The recruiter makes sure their candidate
is accepted.

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markbnj
Do people still check references? My last two gigs they didn't even bother.

~~~
mathattack
It’s still worth doing even if there’s a just a small chance of turning
something up. The only time I haven’t seen it be useful is employee referrals.

~~~
gtirloni
Honest question: what do you hope to find?

As a source of information, references were hand selected by the person with
an interest in getting selected, they will like be prepped on what to say,
they have zero investment in your company's success, etc.

~~~
mathattack
80% of the time you get nothing.

10% you can get confirmation that you correctly spotted the candidate’s
development areas. (Everyone has them, so it’s not a gotcha. But if you think
the candidate needs to work on their architecture skills, their last boss
confirms it but says they’re a great hire, then you can a good conversation
later. “I’d love you to do X, how do we make you a great architect along the
way?)

10% if the time you catch the candidate in a lie or find yourself asking “Is
the best they could find someone to talk about their work?”

When I reference checked nannies, the last bucket grew to 50%. And I had one
nanny give another as a reference.

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alex_young
If a reference is so weak that they will go after the same job from a
reference check or decide not to give you references in the future, you should
know better and find someone else.

Each reference should enthusiastically endorse you and want you to succeed.
That often means providing several responses, because you are going to go get
competitive offers right?

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tjr225
My understanding was that references are explicitly always available upon
request and there's nothing more to it. If the prospective employer wants
them, I'll give them to them if I'm interested enough. I don't put anything
about my references on my resume and I believe this is the common wisdom.

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BigChiefSmokem
I got asked for SIX (6) professional references at my last interview. Is that
normal? Seems ridiculously excessive.

~~~
fphhotchips
Excessive in my experience, but not out of bounds for a sufficiently senior
role.

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tptacek
I give a lot of references and as far as I can tell, the norm is for offers to
be contingent on references; that is: references don't gate offers.

I think it's reasonable, and would personally recommend, that you demand at
least a verbal agreement that an offer is forthcoming before offering a
reference.

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sfbaytechgirl
I only get references from candidates at the final onsite stage. The candidate
can determine what they are comfortable with at all times. There are good
external recruiters out there. The last point is the most important one: know
your worth. Don’t work with people you don’t fee you can trust.

------
MatthewWilkes
I had one background checking service (run by a credit reference agency) forge
a document authorising them to get details of my finances and send it to my
referees once. The whole process is infested with the least ethical people
imaginable.

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dm319
How do people deal with present employers becoming aware that you may be
looking for another position? Do people hide it (hold references back until a
job offer, or give previous employment references) or allow their employer to
know?

~~~
JavaAndChill
Don’t ever let your employer know. If they know you’re not loyal, but don’t
find a better job or decide to stay for some other reason, you’re always going
to be the one who gets the least trust, the worst projects (you might be gone
soon anyway, right?) or even be the one who gets fired if someone has to go.

Another reason why you shouldn’t give references that early.

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futurix
I thought this was common knowledge? (it certainly is in British IT industry)

~~~
adventured
Traditionally in the US recruiters know not to call or abuse references, it
has been an unwritten rule. Things have gotten a bit sleazier in the last
decade or so, you can't trust them as much to stay within what used to be the
culturally accepted boundaries. It might be due in part to the considerable
increase in recruiters working remotely, they're not being as well policed or
screened by their employers.

------
isrsal
It's a sales driven business, not information driven. Therefore, it wasn't yet
disrupted by all the "AI" automatic matching algorithms.

~~~
baxtr
I don’t understand. Isn’t any business “sales driven”?

~~~
nothrabannosir
I think what he means by sales driven is high information asymmetry:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry)

It’s a fair call, if you ask me.

~~~
menssen
It’s too bad that “sales driven” is code for “information hiding.” But it’s
true.

Anecdotally, I’ve been able to solve the information assymetry problem by
drinking recruiters under the table. This is pretty much a prerequisite for me
working with you.

Your mileage may vary.

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ngngngng
I don't work with recruiters. 95% of them waste my time and don't bring any
value. I don't play those odds.

------
BrandoElFollito
I was asked once to provide references. I asked the recruiter how this could
make sense as I will give her three friends who will swear that I am
extraordinary.

She said she need three references and that's all.

It was at the beginning of my career, I am so glad that such nonsense is over
now.

------
TomMckenny
Or only give your references directly to the potential employer at the end of
the interviews.

May as well tell the recruiter this is your intent before hand. There are a
great many recruiters in the world and it's worth sorting the good from not so
good.

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paxy
The recruiter can look up all your connections on LinkedIn or wherever else,
so it's not like the name of your old manager or director is some super
valuable secret like the author is treating it to be.

~~~
deoxxa
Seems a bold assumption given that I (and many people I know) don't maintain
accounts on linkedin or similar.

~~~
s1mon
In my industry, I would be highly suspect of someone without a LinkedIn
presence. It's table stakes.

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mabynogy
Yeah because some are just looking for names to use as prospects.

I'd say don't give references at all. They ask that because they don't trust
the candidate. It's a bad sign IMHO.

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newtron54
This was great to read after giving my references to a recruiter.

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perfunctory
Don't provide your references to a recruiter, period. After the last interview
give your reference to a client/employer directly if they require it.

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bitwize
A crooter once called my work's front desk asking to speak to me, so he could
attempt to entice me into a different position on my work phone.

Crooters give less of a fuck about your personal data than Zuckerberg. Don't
let them have more than they absolutely need. Waiting for crooter firms to be
hit with the GDPR banhammer.

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tiatia123
I mean, this is a no brainer. In some fields it is not easy to get a job. And
in some cultures/some recruiters contact your references to "get a clear
picture". What will your former boss[es] say, if the 10th person contacts
them?

"I am more than happy to provide references that can back up my application
but please understand that this is THE LAST STEP in the application process".
Always worked for me.

Hint: The application process is often a good hint of things to come. Also,
never go to an interview without a phone interview first to make sure you are
on the same page.

~~~
daphneokeefe
That preliminary phone interview will also help you to establish your
credibility and expertise before they get a look at you. In case you aren't a
young white or Asian man.

~~~
tiatia123
I don't know about Asian males. But, call me crazy, salary is something that I
would bring up. I does not make sense to interview for a position that pays
far below your current salary. There is really no need to interview if you are
not on the same page. This does not only save my time, it also saves yours.

By the way, the guy the was the most pushy ever about my references was a guy
I insisted on doing a phone interview first. After the interview and the offer
he have, I had to kindly decline to proceed on the matter.

------
pwaai
I'd like to also add another tip for fellow Vancouverites:

When a agency recruiters tells you he/she/zir doesn't consider salary as an
important metric for gauging quality, hang up immediately, especially when
they use a blocked number.

I hate commuting 1.5 hours for a 10 minute interview because the recruiter
considers engineers as cannon fodder.

