
Cornell Ergonomics Web finds standing desks present their own issues - johnkary
http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/CUESitStand.html
======
johnyzee
_> In our field studies of sit-stand workstations we have found little
evidence of widespread benefits and users only stand for very short-periods
(15 minutes or less total per day). Other studies have found that the use of
sit-stand stations rapidly declines so that after 1 month a majority of people
are sitting all the time._

So sit-stand desks are a bad solution because people don't actually use them?
What's wrong with this logic?

Of course when they are a novelty, people will try them out and then fall back
into old habits.

Here in Denmark practically every office worker in every workplace has a sit-
stand desk, and so I have many years of experience observing this. About ten
percent (my rough estimate) actually use them, but those that do use them a
lot, and stand between 25-50% of the time.

I would not work anywhere without one, simple as that. I even got one for my
home office (they are available from many dealers here).

~~~
wyclif
Can you recommend any models available to be shipped to the States or for
purchase here?

~~~
unicornporn
European Furniture Group has an international site. Check it out:
<http://goo.gl/6YmHR>

------
raldi
I don't get it: the actual study (which they even link to) appears to draw the
exact opposite conclusion:

[http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/Pub/HFlabReports/EHARep0904.pd...](http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/Pub/HFlabReports/EHARep0904.pdf)

See page 29 especially, and the graphs starting on page 19.

~~~
niels_olson
In addition to poo-pooing their own study, as a physician, I was concerned
about the statement that atherosclerotic disease increased 9 times in
standing. here's that study. The reality is in the Tables 2 and 3: it only
comes out as a factor if you already have the disease, even after controlling
for physical labor, psychosocial factors, income, behavior, and biology,
standing is unrelated.

[http://www.sjweh.fi/download.php?abstract_id=536&file_nr...](http://www.sjweh.fi/download.php?abstract_id=536&file_nro=1)

Basically, I don't think this would change my advice to a patient one way or
another, and my default advise is "stand more, walk more, please do something
besides sit on your butt all day."

For patients with symptomatic atherosclerosis, their beds are made already.

------
cbr
Even if the claim that the risk of carotid atherosclerosis is nine times
higher among people who stand more (which is dubious [1]), looking at overall
risk of death makes more sense.

""" Time spent sitting and physical activity were queried by questionnaire on
53,440 men and 69,776 women who were disease free at enrollment. The authors
identified 11,307 deaths in men and 7,923 deaths in women during the 14-year
follow-up. After adjustment for smoking, body mass index, and other factors,
time spent sitting (≥6 vs. <3 hours/day) was associated with mortality in both
women (relative risk = 1.34, 95% confidence interval (CI): 1.25, 1.44) and men
(relative risk = 1.17, 95% CI: 1.11, 1.24). """

<http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/172/4/419.abstract>

[1] below: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2995821>

------
PakG1
I dislike it when articles make bizarre statements and take it for granted
that the audience should accept it. Like:

 _But, standing to work has long known to be problematic, it is more tiring,
it dramatically increases the risks of carotid atherosclerosis (ninefold)
because of the additional load on the circulatory system, and it also
increases the risks of varicose veins, so standing all day is unhealthy._

Where do they get that?? Citations, please! It took me a bit to find all the
background research and read up on it. Interesting stuff.

That being said, still prefer the standing desk. My standing desk at home is
right by my bed, so it's really easy to fall back and change my position when
needed, and I'm worried about carotid atherosclerosis or varicose veins. :)

See also what the book 59 has to say about lying down and creativity. :)

Some background info I found for anyone more interested in this.

[http://www.slideshare.net/inspiringlife/are-you-an-
accidenta...](http://www.slideshare.net/inspiringlife/are-you-an-accidental-
athlete)

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10901115>

~~~
cbr
""" Significant relationships were found between the amount of standing at
work and atherosclerotic progression. After adjustment for the heaviness of
the work, psychosocial job factors, income, and biological and behavioral risk
factors, the mean change in maximum IMT for those standing not at all, a
little, a lot, and very much was 0.24, 0.25, 0.28, and 0.33 mm, respectively.
For men with IHD the respective changes were 0.08, 0.15, 0.37, and 0.75 mm --
a 9-fold difference between the no-exposure and high-exposure group. For the
men with carotid stenosis, the respective difference was 3-fold. """

Do I read this correctly in saying that for men without IHD, the ones who
stood all day had their artery walls thicken by 0.33mm over four years while
those who stood not at all had theirs thicken by 0.24mm? And that the nine-
fold increase is only for people with ischaemic heart disease? So the article
is wrong: it's not 900% but 37% in people who don't have IHD?

The idea is that thicker artery walls are associated with heart disease,
right? Is there reason to believe the relationship is linear? Otherwise we
can't say that because we saw a nine-fold difference in delta IMT that we
expect a ninefold increase in risk.

~~~
niels_olson
> The idea is that thicker artery walls are associated with heart disease,
> right?

Right, except, if you've every scrubbed in for a carotid endarterectomy, the
culprit is a lesion full of cholesterol and inflammation, not a diffuse
thickening.

> Is there reason to believe the relationship is linear?

Well, yes and no. Things that cause atherosclerosis tend to have linear
relationships with the disease. So if you find a new relationship, you expect
it to be linear. Problem is, their analysis has to pile on a lot of other
stuff before you find a relationship. And "Have the disease" is a pretty big
step function compared to the other things they control for. Notice also that
N goes way down in those severe subgroup analyses (tables 2 and 3)

------
davedx
Atkins diets and standing desks aren't going to fix more fundamental issues
with a pervasively unhealthy culture.

~~~
astrofinch
I agree, our culture's unhealthiness is such that no incremental improvement
in our lifestyle can make us incrementally healthier.

~~~
fullmoon
How can an incremental improvement in our lifestyle NOT make us incrementally
healthier?

~~~
ramchip
I think he may have been saying this sarcastically.

~~~
AlexC04
I too thought he was being sarcastic, but then I noticed there was a complete
lack of smilies and rejected the notion as absurd.

~~~
StavrosK
Wait, so, is that comment sarcastic? It has no smileys...

~~~
miek
This group collectively gave me the only vocal chuckle I've had today. Thanks
:)

------
saturdaysaint
I highly recommend kneeling chairs. You sit with your legs underneath you
instead of in front of you, which puts your back at a much more natural angle
(much like standing, actually) than a standard office chair. They're cheap
(mine was $75) and very compact, so you can augment them with a "normaller"
chair. Long hours in a kneeling chair can strain certain muscles (the small of
my back gets a little tight), so I do recommend using a standard chair about
%20 of the time.

I alternate between a cheap office chair and a cheap kneeling chair (something
like this - [http://www.amazon.com/Boss-Office-Products-Ergonomic-
Kneelin...](http://www.amazon.com/Boss-Office-Products-Ergonomic-
Kneeling/product-
reviews/B00429Q38I/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending)),
switching if I feel any twinge of discomfort, and my back and neck feel great.

~~~
redthrowaway
Without any evidence supporting its benefits, the kneeling chair is little
more than another fad in cubicle ergonomics. Call me old-fashioned, but I
believe the things that are good for you are the things that make you _feel_
good. Lying on a comfortable, supportive mattress is good for you. Sitting in
a good chair at your desk is good for you. Walking, and other, more vigorous
exercises are good for you. Kneeling in a knee-chair...is a fad. Either show
me the data supporting the health benefits or don't be offended when I dismiss
out of hand your new productivity- and lifespan-booster.

~~~
ovi256
So how does heroin sit in your value system ? Only considering first order
effects is very naive.

~~~
redthrowaway
Heroin is a short-circuit of the brain's reward system. It's a validation of
my point, not a refutation. That reward system exists to make us feel good
about things that enhance our survival. That means, throughout history, the
vast preponderance of things that make us feel good (eating, exercise, sex,
etc) are also evolutionarily beneficial. Sure, lately, we've become very good
at targeting the pleasure without the effort required to achieve the benefit,
but for things like posture I'd still contend that a comfortable position is
likely the one that's best for your body. See: slouchers have less back
problems than people who sit straight in their chairs.

------
dmpatierno
The advice here is to sit for 20-30 minutes at a time and then take a 2-minute
walking break. This sort of schedule happens to correspond nicely with the
Pomodoro Technique, which suggests 25 minutes of work followed by 5-minute
breaks.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique>

~~~
reinhardt
I dunno, slacking off for (at least) 16.67% of time sounds a bit too much to
me.

~~~
gjm11
The point is that (1) most people are in fact going to slack off for at least
that much time, and (2) doing so in a controlled way is actually beneficial to
your performance when not slacking off.

The only evidence I know for these is anecdotal, but I'll take a substantial
body of anecdotal evidence over "sounds a bit too much to me" any day.

------
rhygar
Ask any professional chef and they'll tell you about the long-term
consequences of standing all day at work. Varicose veins are disgusting and
unhealthy.

------
leoc
> The problem with standing is that when you raise desk height for
> keyboard/mouse use you need to also raise screen height above the desk or
> you get neck flexion. Also, for standing computer work the computer fixes
> the person’s posture there is greater wrist extension and pretty soon people
> end up leaning which also compromises their wrist posture, thereby
> increasing the risks of a musculoskeletal disorder like carpal tunnel
> syndrome.

I don't understand this. In a proper sit-and-stand configuration the torso,
arms and head ought to be in almost exactly the same position relative to the
monitor, keyboard and table whether the user is sitting or standing, no?

~~~
PakG1
For traditional cubicles and traditional desks (i.e. no keyboard tray, no
monitor stand), this doesn't happen. I get the impression that they're talking
about that kind of situation. But if they are, then the sit scenario has
issues they're failing to address. I agree, who uses a standing desk but has
the monitor at the same level as the keyboard/mouse? That's just irrational.

Happy standing desk user (well, customizable IKEA bookshelf, LOL).

------
cobralibre
What this tells me is that the perfect work environment is a Catholic Mass.

------
ableal
Many moons ago, my engineering school had classrooms full of wooden drafting
tables (not unlike this: <http://www.plotter-printers.com/oak-drafting-
tables-2/> ). I cannot find online a picture similar to the wooden stools we
had: tall, square seat slightly tilted forward at perhaps a 15 degree angle,
cross-bars usable as foot-rests.

(Later, of course, "progress" occurred and the furniture was replaced with
plastic chairs and tables.)

~~~
dhugiaskmak
Like this? <http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/bizchair1_2174_1598485773>

I've always wondered if these are comfortable or not.

~~~
ableal
On that one, the lack of foot rests looks very uncomfortable.

My old ones were somewhat like this:
[http://www.officechairsforless.com/Square-Bar-Stool-
ES25VS3....](http://www.officechairsforless.com/Square-Bar-Stool-ES25VS3.html)

Except sturdier, unpadded, and slightly tilted forward. They were also
slightly pyramidal, resulting in a somewhat narrow seat but making the stool
very stable.

P.S. Just found these:
[http://www.worthingtondirect.com/tables/solid_oak_stool_by_g...](http://www.worthingtondirect.com/tables/solid_oak_stool_by_georgia_chair.htm)
. The 30" one is probably closest functionally - I think one just has to slide
off the seat to be standing up.

------
mrspeaker
I was wondering about this. I've been trialing a standing desk - the best part
is if you are thinking about a problem you tend to walk, where as if you're
sitting down you just tilt your head to the side.

But after 4 hours or so I find I get a sore back. I've been "mixin it up"...
standing for an hour, sitting for a couple of hours. Or sitting in the
morning, standing after lunch... so far it feels pretty good, but I'm keeping
some (quite subjective) stats to check out how it goes in the longer term.

~~~
damncabbage
I'm having the same experience; I've read a bunch of reports from people
stating that their back pain vanishes, while I've found sometimes my (minimal)
back pain can get worse on some days.

I don't have the option of swapping it around; my "standing desk" is a regular
desk with cardboard boxes and telephone books stacked on top (
<http://instagr.am/p/MUmlP/> ). At this point I can't get a new regular chair,
let alone a high stool, unfortunately.

I'm giving it a week; after then I'll decide whether to switch back or not.

~~~
Misha_B
Give it a bit more.

I've tried this for about a week now, and it's become better already, but not
all side effects are gone. It's actually been harder to concentrate for this
while due to sore legs...

I think I will stick to it but need another week or so to decide.

------
nwjsmith
"about every 20-30 minutes take a posture break and move for a couple of
minutes"

Sounds like an unintentional endorsement for the Pomodoro technique. Just get
up on your break.

------
Casc
Sit down, do your work, drink a lot of water, walk to the bathroom.

Or maybe I just have the bladder of an 8 year old boy?

------
tluyben2
Everyone seems to use a standing desk to _stand_ , I use a standing desk to
_walk_. Standing still will definitely murder my back, while walking feels
comfortable and natural. Long term effects might be bad, but sitting down just
feels uncomfortable after a while, even on very good ergonomic chairs.

~~~
ars
As the article says, it's hard to type while walking.

~~~
billswift
I don't actually walk, since a treadmill takes up too much space, but I do
shallow side squats and similar exercises while working. I'm a bit hyperactive
and found this helps me stay focused better. What you need to do to type
easily while doing this is have your desk so that it supports your forearms
solidly so your body's movement (and there always is _some_ movement of your
shoulders and upper arms when you move your legs) is not transmitted to your
hands. I am not an especially fast typist though and someone who is may have a
bit more trouble, or may be slowed somewhat.

------
Goladus
I wonder if they considered at all the effects of lying down?

When I work from home, I love being able to take lie flat on the floor for a
bit and rest my back AND legs for a short period.

~~~
cpeterso
You need a ceiling-mounted computer screen (though a ceiling projection might
be safer). That might actually work at home, but it would be a little freaky
if everyone worked laying down at the office. :)

------
Tichy
Another cue to place my twitter bot: <http://twitter.com/officeworkout> \-
tweets an exercise every 30 minutes.

~~~
xtracto
Those are some funny 'exercises'. One practice I adopted is to do all my
printing in the printer which is 2nd closer to my office. That way every time
I print (which is quite often as I read lots of C.S. papers) I have to walk
about 40 steps.

~~~
Tichy
I'll add that to the list, thanks! :)

------
bh42222
_In our field studies of sit-stand workstations we have found little evidence
of widespread benefits and users only stand for very short-periods (15 minutes
or less total per day). Other studies have found that the use of sit-stand
stations rapidly declines so that after 1 month a majority of people are
sitting all the time._

While this contradict my personal experience, I do trust the studies.

 _every 20 minutes stand for 2 minutes AND MOVE_

I also believe this will no more work than sit-stand workstations. _Every_ 20
minutes, walk to the water fountain or somewhere else for 2 minutes, will turn
any large office into a non-stop walkathon. And just like people end up
sitting all day with sit-stand desks, people will end up sitting all day with
this setup.

I suppose employers could hardwire a loud buzzer to go off every 20 minutes,
but I just don't see that happening on any large scale.

Personally I already stand for most of the day, two years after I switched to
a sit-stand desk. But I could change from sitting to standing and back every
20 minutes without losing flow. I am not sure I could do it if I had to walk
away form the keyboard, even just for 2 minutes. After the third or forth
break, I'm guessing I would be out of the zone.

~~~
travisp
I could never get in the habit of stopping every 20 minutes and moving around.
However, after several months with my sit-stand desk, the Steelcase Series 7
(what they have at 37 signals), I find I stand for around 5-6 hours of each
day. I move around while standing, and am able to switch between sitting and
standing without interrupting my flow.

I'm guessing the reason that sit-stand workstation "users only stand for very
short-periods (15 minutes or less total per day)" is because of people who
aren't motivated to stand in the first place (i.e. their employer bought them
the desk).

------
3am
This intuitively makes sense. A lot of you are noting that a sedentary office
environment is foreign to a species that has spent most of it time - prior to
the last several thousand years - moving in search of food, and use that to
critique the article. But I don't see how standing stationarily in one place
is any less foreign to the human experience.

While standing might help work additional core muscles, it is not working
large leg muscles that are crucial to circulation at the same time that it's
increasing stress to the circulatory system.

(For those that don't know, muscle movement is important to the return of
blood to the heart (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venous_return_curve>) in
addition to lymphatic circulation (your _other_ circulatory system -
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymph#Lymphatic_circulation>) )

I could see persistent standing w/o movement stressing arteries because of
greater hydrostatic pressure in your legs and increased load on the left
ventricle of the heart.

------
ukdm
tl;dr Sit to do computer work. Sit using a height-adjustable, downward titling
keyboard tray for the best work posture, then every 20 minutes stand for 2
minutes AND MOVE. The absolute time isn’t critical but about every 20-30
minutes take a posture break and move for a couple of minutes.

~~~
JonnieCache
If this article is too long to read then you have bigger problems than your
posture.

------
jasonspalace
This study should be taken as an experiment. If those participants had been
building up and down for years on end the results would show differently. When
I first started to sit then stand, yes tired more easily. But then as years
progressed, my own personal hampster wheel exists anywhere and everywhere. The
point should be: MOVE YOUR BODY A BALANCED PORTION OF TIME. Personally, when
on silly long cycles, I sit stand work dance, building every way. If the beats
not cranking, it's a posture focus war from looking down, typically the screen
is fixed as I'm either looking slightly up or down at it.

------
lojack
Everyone always over thinks it with the whole sit-stand desk. All you need to
do is buy a standing desk (I simply adjusted my cubicle) and a tall chair. No
adjustment required, sit when you want and stand when you want.

------
nazgulnarsil
I'm looking into getting an inversion table. Has anyone used one of these? all
the studies have been on people who already have problems such as ruptured or
herniated discs.

~~~
Tharkun
Are you referring to one of these? :/ [http://backinversiontable.com/wp-
content/bitfeed/images/fitn...](http://backinversiontable.com/wp-
content/bitfeed/images/fitness-inversion-table.jpg)

~~~
nazgulnarsil
yes

------
schiptsov
Obviously, replacing a sitting desk with a standing desk is not the answer.
The answer is (surprise! surprise!) do pauses after each hour and take 10-15
min. active recreation. Exactly the same as it was in a school or college. It
is not about sitting or standing still all day long, it is all about moving!

Most of really good ideas have been discovered long long ago. ^_^

------
nazgulnarsil
Anterior pelvic tilt is caused by tight hamstrings and weak posture muscles
which are side effects of sitting all day. Weighted barbell squats fix this
problem more effectively than anything else I know of. Walking is important,
but a strong core is probably even more important for long term back health.

~~~
niels_olson
Doc here. Anterior pelvic tilt is a fancy way of saying "slouching". Slouching
isn't bad. An Olympic squatter can slouch with the best of them. Slouching for
8 hours is bad. Stand. Walk. Just don't sit all day.

------
buff-a
Its a shame they didn't discuss walking beyond "it makes it difficult to
type". Question: if I can figure out how to type while walking, will that give
me the benefits of standing while avoiding the negatives?

~~~
aptwebapps
I used to want a chording, one-handed keyboard with a strap. I thought that
that combined with a PDA (this was a few years ago) would be great for walking
and working.

But I probably would have walked in front of a bus so it is just as well I
never had one.

~~~
r00fus
Walking on a pedestrian trail in a park or the woods would greatly reduce your
likelyhood of being hit by a vehicle... it would also be highly rejuvenating
(nature is relaxing to most folks).

~~~
aptwebapps
That was the idea, in fact.

------
swah
That was expected, due to Nosilverbullet's law...

------
pointyhat
I never quite understood the appeal of standing up all day. Having done a
couple of jobs in my youth which involved standing up all day and spending 2
hours a day on a train standing up, I couldn't think of anything less
appealing.

I love my Aeron and so does my arse.

~~~
jacobian
Over the last couple of years I've been having a couple of problems at work:
increasing lower back pain and decreasing attention span. I had no reason to
assume either had anything to do with my desk: I, too, rock the Aeron and
think it's comfy as heck. I've got my keyboard and monitor at the right
height. I take breaks every 30-60 minutes and go walk around. Etc.

But as the back pain kept getting worse, I finally decided to give the
standing desk thing a try about 3 weeks ago. I expected my back to start
feeling better, and it did -- great! But the unexpected benefit has been
vastly increased focus: I somehow feel _much_ more motivated standing than
sitting. There's something that feels incredibly silly about watching YouTube
or reading Hacker News while standing, and so I just don't do it. I've been
more productive these last 3 weeks than I've been in a long, long time.

Perhaps it's just the novelty of a new situation; who knows. But I'm going to
stick with it, for now.

~~~
zck
There have been studies done -- I can't find any on a quick search -- that
show that changing a working habit makes them more productive. Then it tails
off. Change the habit back, and they get another burst of productivity. So you
may be right, and it's just because it's new. Or it may work for you.

~~~
RegEx
So this is why I find myself cycling between 5 different "productivity apps"

~~~
pointyhat
I cycle between 0 - makes me more productive :)

------
Ihavenoname

      Standing in not accepted risk factor for carotid atherosclerosis. There is no shortage of research about the dangers of sitting including obesity which is a risk factor of symptomatic carotid atherosclerosis. Varicose veins wile not very attractive are not considered a serious health problem and are treatable  I would invite the author to quantify the desks with peer reviewed research. The only link was to a 32 person self survey. Not exactly the most reliable form of research.
    

I would also like to note this is not a peer reviewed article ones does the
man have a medical degree and is not qualified to give medical advice. Not
staying in one position sitting or standing and increasing your activity level
is sound advice. I find the claims that standing is dangerous are surprising
and are against everything I learned or read about accepted medical
recommendations.

