
Sweden authorities abducted a child because of homeschooling - Jach
http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Sweden/201304160.asp
======
darklajid
The language is intentionally emotional. Sweden didn't 'abduct' a child.

If you want to believe Wikipedia [1] (since I'm not a lawyer and not even
remotely sure about the specifics of the laws in question) the same thing
could happen here in Germany.

I doubt that is even close to the full story here, and a site that fights for
homeschooling probably wants to push its own agenda first and foremost.

This seems to be a tabloid headline, with biased/incomplete/weird content
behind the link.

1:
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulpflicht_(Deutschland)#Vol...](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulpflicht_\(Deutschland\)#Vollzeitschulpflicht)

~~~
alipang
I do find it disturbing that Sweden /requires/ you to send your kids to a
government institute for hours each day to be educated.

In practice, of course, free education is a great privilege for most families,
but I fail how you a free society in congruent with this law. I'm Swedish, but
have left the country. The quality of Swedish schools is less than outstanding
imo.

~~~
darklajid
I guess that's fine. You have always the option to leave a group of people/a
society that has a different opinion.

Germany requires the same (Homeschooling isn't allowed, except in very
specific cases -> A child that cannot be transported/isn't mobile at all for
example).

For me that is The Right Way. The same education for everyone. If the public
education sucks, we need to improve that not work around the issue.

And .. the majority of reasons for homeschooling are plain invalid in my world
(often based on religious ideas, claiming that the curriculum is containing
'forbidden'/'evil'/'wrong' stuff).

'Free society' doesn't imply the right to do everything. You cannot drink and
drive. You're not allowed to beat your (very own, hey you made those!)
children. For some, myself included, the requirement to send your kids to a
'real' school is a necessary thing and not Restricting The Freedom.

You're free to disagree (both in Sweden and Germany), but in that case you
need to decide if that freedom is important enough to warrant a move - or you
can try to lobby against the majority/the status quo. Ignoring the state and
law (as the family seemed to have done) or calling it wrong won't help.

~~~
ars
> If the public education sucks

What if group education is the problem? Parents being allowed to teach their
children is a human right, and it's only very strange countries that block it.
It smacks of government indoctrination.

> And .. the majority of reasons for homeschooling are plain invalid in my
> world (often based on religious ideas, claiming that the curriculum is
> containing 'forbidden'/'evil'/'wrong' stuff).

I guess the government indoctrination is working on you. (Did they run some
propaganda ads to make you believe such a strange thing?)

No, the reason most parents homeschool is that they can do a much better job,
because you don't have to spend half of the day on useless structure and
discipline. By doing that you free up so much time that kids can learn twice
as much as non homeschooled kids. Or they can learn other subjects not
normally taught, or they can explore their interests.

It's not for all parents of course, it requires a good commitment. But
homeschooled kids end up with much better educations that regular schooled
ones. There have been many studies in the US on this subject and the results
are very clear: Homeschooling works much better.

> 'Free society' doesn't imply the right to do everything. For some, myself
> included, the requirement to send your kids to a 'real' school is a
> necessary thing and not Restricting The Freedom.

Of course it is restricting. You have just been brainwashed. A society can
make up any rules it likes, and I guess you'll go along with it.

But you have to have a good _reason_ for the rules. And there is no good
reason at all for the ban on homeschooling.

~~~
darklajid
So, because I disagree with your point of view I am 'brainwashed'? Should I
continue on the same path and attack you, personally, for the 'obvious'
mistake of thinking that way?

In my world parents can teach their children everything - on top of the
regulated, quality-controlled standard education. Why? Because otherwise you
cannot control that a child receives decent education. And no, brainwashing
(to use your term here) your own child or deciding that math and biology are
not relevant, but let's do just sports instead, is not a human right.

Education is. Home schooling offers little benefits and leads to huge problems
(regulation, quality control are my biggest issues with it).

> It's not for all parents of course

Oh? Really? So .. we should decide on a case by case basis? Maybe ask for a
'driving license' to teach your kids? I think we have a degree in Germany that
involves something similar...

> Homeschooling works much better

No. And quite frankly, I couldn't give a damn about the US here. Show me the
sources and I'll probably find out that most of the 'home-schooled' were
privileged rich kids where people bought their way out of the 'normal' way.
And probably all the nutjobs (again, you have a couple of interesting
religious groups in the US that like your concept as well) are excluded from
the study. But hey, surprise me and find me a relevant study?

> Of course it is restricting

Oh man.. The US way again. Freedom > everything else, right? Without starting
to point out that you don't live in a free country according to _my_
definition: We don't even agree on the priority of things here. Germany has no
free speech as you know it. And I want that to remain the way it is. My
(liberal, pirate party voting) peers largely agree. This isn't 'brainwashed'
or stupid, that's a difference in culture, a model of values that doesn't
match your own.

And let me close with a stab of my own: If this is the way you like to lead an
argument, I doubt that you're able to school a kid. "Those Germans?
Brainwashed. They do atrocious things, show naked skin on TV, supress free
speech and take kids away. In the night. Before they eat them"

~~~
ars
> So, because I disagree with your point of view I am 'brainwashed'?

No, it's because you disagree for patently stupid and obviously wrong reasons,
and you don't even see it.

> Because otherwise you cannot control that a child receives decent education.

Sure you can. You give quarterly tests. And not on a case by case,
automatically - no permission or application needed, but your kids need to
pass the test.

> Oh? Really? So .. we should decide on a case by case basis? Maybe ask for a
> 'driving license' to teach your kids?

Nope. You ask the parents themself. There are a minority who are nuts, but
99.9% of people are perfectly able to decide if they can teach their kids the
needed subjects.

The testing will help find the obviously unqualified and the rest run their
own life, just like people have been doing for thousands of years.

Do you trust the parents to educate their kids about morals and behavior? Or
are you going to have the state do that too? Actually, why not have
professionals raise the kids in group homes and forget the parents completely?

> Show me the sources and I'll probably find out that most of the 'home-
> schooled' were privileged rich kids where people bought their way out of the
> 'normal' way.

Your brainwashing is showing again. You are simply wrong. Go lookup your own
sources, nothing else will convince you.

~~~
darklajid
Thank you for amusing me to no end.

> Actually, why not have professionals raise the kids in group homes and
> forget the parents completely?

Funnily enough, that is vaguely similar to what was offered in East Germany
and the general trend here is to actually provide general daycare for your
child, so that the mother (if we're talking classic roles) can take up a job
again. It's even a big part for the upcoming elections here.

I'm not a fan of that myself, but I cackle with glee thinking about the fits
that this discussion ("Hey, why don't you give us the child and go to work
during the day") might throw you in.

Bottom line: Your values are not compatible with mine. They are not relevant
for my decisions. I doubt they are relevant for Sweden either. Stop trying to
believe you are morally superior in any way.

------
Kiro
There's a lot more to the story. For example the fact that the dad abducted
the boy for several days sleeping in barns and in the car in the middle of the
winter, something which he was sent to jail for. Or that the boy was
physically abused, had tooth decay due to health care neglect and no
vaccination prior the planned trip to India.

~~~
jtheory
Are these actual details of _this_ case (if so, where are you getting them?),
or examples of possible explanations that might be left out in an article such
as this?

I do get the sense there's quite a bit left out of the article.

~~~
Kiro
[https://www.flashback.org/t1109355](https://www.flashback.org/t1109355)

In Swedish but they refer to the court documents (Google Translate):

"The man came driving straight toward the son and the foster mother in a car,
got out, pulled her son into the car and drove away from the scene. The man
then switched to another car and slept two nights with her son in a barn and
another outbuilding like space."

"The father was sentenced to prison for the unlawful detention, and has had
restraining order against son with an extension until at least last fall."

"The boy lvu: was, among other things because he had been physically abused.
The judges consisted of caries (!). When parents would move him to India at
the age of eight, they had not vaccinated the boy. It was then that assistance
was on the plane at Arlanda. Having grown up in Sweden and move to India
without preparation of vaccinations can be dangerous. It was not about a
charter trip to Goa, and even then, many people tend to take photos vaccines."

[http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&art...](http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=5519799)

"But the police do not come and take children who do not go to school. Emma
Östling says this stopped in the 1980s. So there has to be a bigger issue for
the local authority to justify taking a child away. This means that the local
municipality's social department must have decided that the familiy's home was
not a safe place for the child."

~~~
Jach
Thank you. Part of the reason I submitted here (with an intentionally
emotional title because otherwise it wouldn't have received attention!) was
because I wanted to see if anyone knew something else about the story,
especially from Swedish-language sources which I don't have the google-fu to
initially find. I'm still left with questions, and I'm not sure cavities (were
they in baby teeth near to falling out?), physical abuse (is that spanking or
punching?), and lack of pre-trip vaccination (shouldn't that be India's
problem?) justify the response, but it's a lot better than rocking the boat on
homeschooling which is what all the English-language stories I saw on this
seemed to say.

------
kalleboo
Background: Homeschooling is not legal in Sweden since June 2010, and even
before then (this seems to have happened in 2009) it was a difficult exception
to make use of (you had to convince the council where you lived to examine and
approve of your course, convince a local school to do some kind of testing for
grades, etc).

------
mrintegrity
Most definitely a biased article. I scanned some of the court documents and a
few things really stood out, in particular:

"Domenic himself has made it clear that not want to meet his parents or even
talk about them."

Not something you would expect of a child forcibly removed from loving
parents.

From what I read, the parents sound like a couple of douche bags that are more
interested in themselves than the child.

Dissenting opinion to the decision to keep him in foster care agreed that the
care under his parents was insufficient but that foster care may be over the
top.

------
blahbap
"HSLDA encourages interested members to pray and fast for the family and
participate in these other forms of support" \- what's this crap doing on HN ?
This is an extremely one sided argument from one side in a conflict.

------
ars
Sorry, but this story is not credible.

Maybe someone who speaks the language can read the court documents and tell us
what this one sided story is leaving out?

------
johnchristopher
A timeline here:
[http://freesweden.net/domenic_timeline.html](http://freesweden.net/domenic_timeline.html)

Don't know if it's biaisd though.

~~~
darklajid
Thanks, that paints quite a different and better picture.

It seems homeschooling was legal and the parents had a very good reason to do
it even if it wouldn't be (the upcoming move to IN).

I fail to understand why they wouldn't comply when the state started to demand
that their son visits a 'normal' school though. They fought a dangerous battle
with a state they planned to leave. I wouldn't have dared to do that, the
minimum damage would've been a hefty fine, the maximum .. happened.

At least I'm far more sympathetic after reading this timeline than after that
OP's link..

------
lrem
That's about why Sweden is the only country in EU I don't want to settle in. A
year or two ago there was a well-known (at least in Poland) case where a child
was taken from an immigrant family on the grounds of being "too sad". This was
assumed to be a sign of some abuse. What happened in fact was that child's
favorite gradma died.

~~~
lotsofcows
Better not move to the UK either. The "news" at the moment has a fetish for
finding cases where a lack of state intervention resulted in some poor little
sods death.

Of course, after they're published a few stories it's no longer "news" at
which point they'll find some other statistically unlikely tragedy to flog to
the ghouls.

~~~
lotsofcows
I spent ages trying to work out what the downvote was for, then I spotted the
missing apostrophe. Sorry!

------
cwisecarver
Why do these hslda articles keep showing up on HN? This is the second one in
as many days. I'm not questioning their value, just their placement on the
homepage of Hacker News.

