
To Fall Out of Love, Do This (2015) - Tomte
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/26/fall-love
======
RcouF1uZ4gsC
The biggest thing I have found to keep in love is kindness. Sure, I could come
up with a cutting, sarcastic rejoinder in on something my spouse says, but
that would be unkind and cause pain.

If you look at the list presented, there is vitriol in pretty much every
question. Don’t do that.

Also, along the same lines as kindness, never speak ill of your spouse or put
them down in front of anyone. Be their biggest fan.

Speak kindly. Act kindly. No matter how you feel, make it a habit. This will
go a long way towards a good, long-lasting relationship.

~~~
trabant00
> never speak ill of your spouse or put them down in front of anyone. Be their
> biggest fan. > Speak kindly. Act kindly. No matter how you feel

Really? No matter what they do, no matter how they make you feel? Never, ever?

~~~
mikekchar
Not OP, but I agree completely (even though I find it hard)! Really. Never. It
will never, ever give you any benefit at all to speak ill of your spouse. It
will give you nothing to act unkindly. It will only cause your spouse to feel
justified in doing the same.

As the other poster said, there are times when you should walk away from
situations. There are healthy relationships and there are unhealthy
relationships. If you honestly don't believe that the relationship can be a
healthy one, it's time to leave. Especially if you are suffering from any kind
of abuse in the relationship and you have unsuccessfully tried to resolve it,
don't hesitate. Don't make or accept excuses. Heck, don't feel you even need
to resolve the issue if you are getting serious abuse. Just leave.

There is no reason to retaliate in any way. Doing so will hurt you as well.
The situation is what it is. You can explain the situation, explain your
feelings and leave it at that. Or if you can't safely explain things (for fear
of retaliation from the other side), then just leave without an explanation.
Start the healing process immediately. Don't start a knife fight and then
crawl away even more wounded.

For smaller issues, I've found (much to my dismay) that if my wife is doing
something that hurts me, she is _completely_ unaware that it hurts me. Even if
it obvious to me that it should be hurtful, it's not obvious to her. If I'm
snarky about it, then she is hurt. Now it is doubly hard to improve the
situation. If she is not hurt, then it is relatively easy to have a non-
confrontational conversation about what happened. I control all of the hurt
feelings, because they are mine. If she is hurt, then I have to rely on her to
work out her feelings in addition to listening to my problems. It very rarely
works out well.

~~~
trabant00
I find hard to believe there is no appropriate time to be harsh with your
partner and that there is no middle ground between being nice no matter what
or leave.

~~~
mikekchar
It's never been useful in _my_ experience, but I'm certainly interested to
hear your experience.

------
klenwell
This New Yorker piece is a comical riposte to the NY Times article cited in
the epigraph. I remember the original Times article well because it was
discussed here on Hacker News and inspired this extraordinary comment
recommending its own version of a follow-up study, one involving a video
camera, 20 photographs with multiple-choice descriptions of smells, and a
"treatment room":

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10807897](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10807897)

------
cachance
This seems to be a humor piece, but it honestly just makes me sad. My only
feeling is that I wish I hadn't read it. Maybe this resonates differently to
someone else?

~~~
jeppebemad
It got me the same way at first. But then I realized that the questions simply
bring out the essence of being human, the same flaws and insecurities that
most people feel. That had me feeling that we’re all connected on a human
level through good and bad, diminishing the importance of the issues one might
have in a relationship. That was my take away from those annoying questions,
anyway.

~~~
totetsu
I was thinking yesterday about how even if you don't agree with someones way
of thinking, it can still be useful to understand it. People might use
different words, and structure their explanations in different ways, but they
responding to and trying to rationalize their experience of the same
underlying wetware. looking at the way other people try to explain human
nature can help reveal things about the experience of being human.

------
skrebbel
I LOL'ed at

> Why did you send me a link to this _Times_ article if you didn’t want us to
> go through the questions together?

------
axegon_
I scrolled through the questions out of curiosity and for some people I can
only see this backfiring catastrophically. Personally I wouldn't be able to
not be sarcastic about a number of them. And some I wouldn't be able to answer
at all, for example:

> Take four minutes and tell your partner your life story in as much detail as
> possible. I already know that story. And I was there for that one. It didn’t
> happen like that.

I'm sorry but there are good chunks of my life I really don't want to remember
or discuss: I honestly don't want to talk about the moment I learned that my
best friend since I could walk or talk had died. Or the following several
years of my life. Just one example...

~~~
ralfd
> I can only see this backfiring catastrophically

That is the point!

Read the title again, these are questions not for falling in love, but to fall
_out_ of love.

~~~
axegon_
Yeah, I forgot to add some context: I looked at Arthur Aron's[1] 36 questions
as, not just those in the article. Equally applicable for both.

[1] [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/open-
gently/201310/3...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/open-
gently/201310/36-questions-bring-you-closer-together)

------
metrokoi
What in the world is the point of this? These aren't questions to make a
couple ask each other, it's just forcing them to say mean things to each
other. For example:

> O.K., fine, I’m adding your dishwasher issue to my list of irritating
> things, too. So there.

>I already know that story. And I was there for that one. It didn’t happen
like that.

Those are not questions, that's a statement.

I can make a couple fall out of love by forcing them to ask only one
"question": "Do you love me? No you don't, I hate you and I'm breaking up with
you".

~~~
teekert
Still that wouldn't really do it though, an in love couple would just laugh at
it/each other. But keep in mind that this is intended as humor.

~~~
metrokoi
I have been on the internet too long today to have an immediately cynical view
of it. On second viewing I did appreciate this one as it sticks to the theme
of asking questions:

>What would constitute a “perfect” day for you? Why do we always just go home
and watch Netflix instead of doing any of that stuff?

I do think it would have made a bit more sense as satire if the author had
stuck to only questions such as this, but perhaps I'm just nitpicking.

------
Swizec
> What would constitute a “perfect” day for you? Why do we always just go home
> and watch Netflix instead of doing any of that stuff?

Ouch that hits close. But really the answer is that we prefer Netflix over the
other options.

There’s a lot to be said about finding comfort in each other’s company after a
long day and not needing anything else. Just _be_ together and enjoy a good
story. It’s great

~~~
lliamander
My wife and I get quite a bit of joy from not just watching the stories, but
also talking about them long afterward.

~~~
zhoujianfu
My wife and I get quite a bit of joy from not watching the stories, but just
paging endlessly through the options.

~~~
Groxx
And boggling at the endless "...why in the world would they think that we'd
like that? 97% match?! Because we liked X, we'll like its antithesis?"

Algorithmic recommendations are entertainment in their own right sometimes.
And it helps you realize that the robot uprising is a looooooooong way away.

------
teekert
Honestly I skimmed through at first and thought these were the intimacy
_promoting_ questions and I found them to be very good because they are so
focused on blunt honesty that one probably will discover a couple of truthful
things of beauty about their partner. But apparently these are intimacy
discouraging :S.

------
praptak
These are thirty-something's questions. They give me the "Was I really
obsessing over _that_?!" vibe. Maybe I'm old and cynical.

------
kstenerud
"Given the choice of anyone in the world, whom would you like to punch in the
face?"

My sparring partners.

"On average, how long do you spend composing tweets before you post them? Do
you realize that they don’t matter?"

I don't have a twitter account.

"Before responding to a text, do you wait a few minutes to make it seem like
you’re doing something more important? Why? Answer me now."

Yes, because otherwise people unconsciously start taking you for granted.

"What would constitute a “perfect” day for you? Why do we always just go home
and watch Netflix instead of doing any of that stuff?"

Being together.

"What’s your favorite song? No, it’s not. I’ve never once heard you listen to
that song."

World in my eyes. She likes Depeche Mode too.

"Honestly, which one of us would you rather have die first?"

Her, so that she doesn't have to miss me.

"So you want me to be the one who becomes a burden to our children and then
dies alone?"

No, I want ME to be the one who dies alone and her the one who dies loved.

"Name three things you find irritating about your partner."

Actually, we just discussed one today and are making steps to deal with it.

"Why do we even have a dishwasher if you insist on thoroughly scrubbing the
dishes before putting them in? O.K., fine, I’m adding your dishwasher issue to
my list of irritating things, too. So there."

This only seems to happen with American dishwashers. For whatever reason, they
never manage to clean if there's visible food on the plates.

"If you could change anything about your partner’s family, what would it be?"

For her stepfather to still be alive.

"Take four minutes and tell your partner your life story in as much detail as
possible. I already know that story. And I was there for that one. It didn’t
happen like that."

We all remember things differently. That's half the fun :)

"Why did you send me a link to this Times article if you didn’t want us to go
through the questions together?"

That's precisely why I sent it.

"Between you and your partner, who is the better gift-giver?"

Her.

"What is your most treasured memory? I was there for that one. It definitely
didn’t happen like that."

Doesn't matter. She was there and that's what counts.

"What is your most horrible memory? No, “Right now, answering these questions”
doesn’t count."

When she went missing and I thought I'd lost her.

"Is there something that you’ve dreamed of doing for a long time but haven’t
done because you know your partner wouldn’t like it?"

Nope. We're secure enough in our relationship to do some things alone out of
consideration for the other.

"Don’t pin that on me. You know we don’t have to do everything together,
right?"

Absolutely.

"What do you want to do for dinner?"

Stay home, eat Kartoffelgratin, and play Killing Floor 2 together.

"If you knew we were getting dinner tonight, why would you eat a cupcake at
five? All I’ve had to eat today is a cup of soup and, like, eight almonds."

Oops, sorry.

"Take turns going to the bathroom with nothing but a thin, not at all
soundproof door separating you from your partner. Just sit there and hear it
all."

Sure, that's our daily life anyway.

"What do you want to watch tonight?"

Das Boot. One more episode till end of season!

"Are you going to fall asleep in the middle of the episode again?"

Maybe. She might also. Some episodes we've watched halfway through 5 times :P

"I’m not the one making us answer these questions. Do you want to stop?"

Nope, I'm good.

"Do you not think our relationship is strong enough to handle these
questions?"

Yup.

"How do you feel about your partner’s relationship with his or her mother?"

It's been strengthening over the years, and that's good.

"Oh, like your mother is so much better?"

She gave birth to me, gracing God's earth with me. So yeah :)

"Share a tube of toothpaste with your partner."

Sure.

"Why are you not squeezing from the bottom? Are you a monster?"

Because I like to torment her.

"Tell your partner which celebrities you find attractive."

I'm not good at knowing who people are so I can't name names, but in general
90% of celebrities are attractive by design, and don't look that way in real
life.

"Why do none of those celebrities look anything like me?"

Because they spend 100k a year on it and have a team of professional
photographers and photoshoppers at their service to bend reality.

"Rent a car with your partner and drive while he or she gives directions."

That's what we normally do. Driver side driver, passenger side navigator.

"How am I supposed to get across four lanes in two seconds? You have to tell
me the exit earlier."

Oops, sorry.

"Tell your partner something that you like about him or her. Try to think of
something. Anything."

She's the most loyal, loving and caring person I've ever met. She even gives
dosh away in KF2 to newcomers when she's medic in the early waves!

"Given the choice of anyone in the world, whom would you like to punch in the
face?"

My sparring partners.

------
DyslexicAtheist
_> whether the intimacy between two committed partners can be broken down by
forcing them to ask each other thirty-six questions no one in a relationship
should actually ask_

don't read on if you're easily offended by topics of sex - what follows is how
a European perceives US/American dating culture. If you get offended by the
word "porn" don't read. you've been warned ...

going through the list in this article I'll more likely to fall in love with a
partner willing to discuss these. There are actually several deep
conversations buried within each question - and I have discussed many of them
with my partner. it sounds a bit sad (not to say pathetic) to me if somebody
is unable to raise these in a relationship.

maybe I'm strange, in which case what do young couples today talk about?

American dating culture and how it is propagandized in Hollywood serials is
very odd to me. I spent a lot of time among Americans at work and also outside
work. To me as a European having to ask somebody to go on a date in a formal
way is pretty odd. Like you can't just go out for a movie or drinks with the
opposite sex and see where it leads? I have never been on a date in my whole
life and this article reminds me how sterile and awkward Anglo-Saxon cultures
are about sex, dating and relationships.

The English basically can't do it unless they're utterly wasted (exaggerating
but there is truth here!). American's can't do it unless they constantly talk
about "daddy this" and "daddy that" -> what's up with this pedopheliac
insinuations that are everywhere from old books such as The Great Gatsby to
The Boardwalk Empire (it's not new that Americans like to call their man
daddy).

If I just started making out with a woman and she calls me daddy I'd be so
grossed out I'd be heading for the door. Also if you look at porn (and the US
is the biggest producer here) you can see what they think gets clicks:
suggestions of individual A does it with their "step-daughter" and violence is
the norm. Americans can't get off unless there is violence (--> this is very
different to Italian or French porn).

Generally Americans have some rather strange rules of what to ask on date
number #1 then date #2 ... and then 3 months later women expect some
conversation about where this is going. E.g. a couple constantly have to move
"forward". I've had an American gf - her constant blubbering and her inability
to just enjoy the silence together was what killed it. I never understood if
it was out of insecurity that she was never able to shut up - but meeting many
of the years it's more the norm with both sexes than the exception. Like they
have to constantly open their mouth even they got nothing to say to remind
themselves that they're still ok and to mask their insecurity.

I'm going off on a tangent but this article reminded me of all that.
considering the article isn't a joke it just drives home even more how
pathetic and sterile US dating culture is. I mean if you can't discuss your
deepest and darkest with your SO why not just get a dog? why bother at all
with such a farce?

~~~
ceilingcorner
This trope of "as a member of the superior European culture, America is
strange because..." is really tiring, and as an American that has spent years
living in various European countries, almost always flat-out wrong and
inaccurate. I assure you, European countries have some cultural practices that
appear just as strange or backwards to Americans.

Your post is a perfect example: you have chosen a grab-bag of behaviors and
traits from a very diverse group of people (329,227,746), thrown them
together, and said "Look how weird these people are!"

~~~
DyslexicAtheist
oh don't get me started on Europeans, as a European I can guarantee you that
we are as backwards in many ways even more so. there are many progressive
elements among US culture but it's not what this article reminds me of (even
more skurille that it's posted on HN since it has no value in psychology or
philosophy). your comment is whataboutism but I can understand why it may
offend (although offense wasn't my intention) I too prefer to be critced by my
own tribe rather than an outsider. which is only human. but then it's also
false because an immigrant to Europe (or somebody who has never been there)
might make better conclusions about my country than those who are in the thick
of it.

~~~
ceilingcorner
Your comment doesn't offend, it's simply ignorant and wrong.

~~~
DyslexicAtheist
how can my personal experience with American culture be wrong? it's not like
I'm citing something I read but things I have and still experience. I'll leave
it at this since there is no point in further discussion if we don't share the
same basis/foundation in how we perceive reality.

~~~
redisman
You’re making sweeping generalizations with surface level information.

~~~
DyslexicAtheist
I'm making generalizations about how America propagandizes its image
throughout the world and I provide personal anecdotes on how these stereo-
types have become real to me. It isn't how all Americans think nor did I say
so. But it's real enough as there is evidence even in classic American
literature so that they are as real or unreal as you want them to be (you can
only not see them by never reading anything old or new). If you ask somebody
to read all the American classics they will stumble upon these themes over and
over.

As for grounding in reality I have met my share of Americans who were closer
to this stereotype than others. The fact that everyone immediately understands
what I'm referring to by mentioning these (American) social norms speaks for
itself. There is nothing naughty about it in my thinking - it's a comment of
the social norms from an outsider so feel free to ignore them or if they do
not match your experience why get offended by it? But once people (like
myself) have become aware of them it's hard to not see them.

Saying it's a generalization is a cheap shot when this whole article is
pseudo-scientific nonsense that generalizes the shallowness of relationships
by insinuating "there are many taboo topics you should never ask your
partner". How else can you discuss society or culture without generalization?
All of systems-thinking is a generalization and abstraction, it's literally
how we reason in the face of complexity.

