
Facebook Dating - timdavila
https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2019/09/facebook-dating/
======
estsauver
I think this might be a (relatively) rare strategy error for Facebook. If the
success of Snapchat, LinkedIn, and also the separate WhatsApp/Instagram
properties proves anything, it's that there are very different faces of
ourselves that we show to the professional world, to our friends, to partners,
and to the world at large.

If I was facebook, I would very explicitly announce this as a spin out
project, under a different name and brand. While HN has a good knowledge of
the ultimate parent owners of apps, I meet _a lot_ of people who protest
facebook by moving to Instagram/WhatsApp. Even announcing this through the
instagram brand would have made more sense to me.

~~~
asdfman123
> it's that there are very different faces of ourselves that we show to the
> professional world, to our friends, to partners, and to the world at large

I think Facebook's goal is to make it so that you have one persona you show to
everyone. To me, that seems like a cultural thing unique to Silicon Valley
that the rest of the world does not necessarily want.

It seems like a mistake. If you have one persona, that means that you need to
optimize that persona for your career and ironically it feels more stiflingly
conformist. Just my personal feelings on the matter, though. I'm not trying to
call out anyone who likes that way of life (and perhaps has a personality
that's well suited for it), just that it should not be imposed on everyone.

I kind of like the old model where you pretend to be conservative at work, and
are free to be as weird as you want to in your own time.

~~~
LyndsySimon
> If you have one persona, that means that you need to optimize that persona
> for your career and ironically it feels more stiflingly conformist.

I understand where you're coming from, but this statement isn't necessarily a
truism. You can wear who you are on your sleeve and even be quite extreme, if
you're a reasonable person who can build and maintain professional
relationships.

I do almost everything online under my real name, and am not optimized for
career purposes. It's just _me_. As a result, I've had my political beliefs
and such come up in interviews on multiple occasions. In one case - as I found
out a year or so after being laid off - my interview process took a couple of
weeks longer than was typical because one of the executives/partners at the
company was concerned specifically about my politics. On the other hand, I did
in fact get that job (and loved it!) and I've gotten several connections and
invitations to apply based upon my discussions. Surprisingly, they seem to be
about evenly split between people who agree and who disagree with my stances.
I'm passionate about political issues, but I do my best to be accommodating to
others and not be aggressive about them.

It would be fair to say that my positions are pretty extreme, too. I'm a
political anarchist; Anarcho-Capitalist / Voluntaryist, to be more precise. I
am open about that even in professional settings because it has such an
influence on how I approach relationships and the world in general. I tend to
be a "systems thinker", and see everything as a balance of competing forces. I
see the whole world through this lens; everything is influenced by incentives
and disincentives. I have exactly one tattoo, a stylized graph of supply and
demand.

~~~
asdfman123
Okay, try putting "Card-carrying gun owner and anti-abortion activist" on your
resume and apply for big tech companies.

Or hell, even start a personal blog using your real name talking about
opinions that are anathema to coastal dwellers. Watch your callback rate
dramatically decline.

I grew up in a suburb of a conservative state, and I learned early on when to
show "who I am and what I really believe" and when to be low-key about it.
Others like me who did not learn that skill were bullied relentlessly. I got
along pretty well.

If you actually had opinions many people disagreed with strongly, you'd be
bullied and held back as well.

~~~
LyndsySimon
> Okay, try putting "Card-carrying gun owner and anti-abortion activist" on
> your resume and apply for big tech companies.

Well, a resume isn't a place for that sort of thing at all, but I do pretty
much that now. My name is unique - look me up. For what that's worth, a good
portion of my posts even here on HN have something to do with guns. I try to
be more "informative" than "confrontational", but that's because of the nature
of the site more than anything else. I'm here to discuss, share, and learn,
not to argue.

I'm definitely a "card-carrying gun owner". I literally put guns in the hands
of children on a regular basis (I'm a 4-H youth firearms instructor), a past
board member of a state gun rights organization, and an outspoken advocate for
the recognition of individuals' rights to both defend themselves and to own
and carry the most effective tools possible to that end.

It would be fair to say that I'm anti-abortion as well, with the caveat that
I'm much more anti-government. I believe abortion is a terrible thing, but I
also believe that giving government the power to prevent it would be much,
much worse.

> Or hell, even start a personal blog using your real name talking about
> opinions that are anathema to coastal dwellers.

I need to redesign my blog, and post more often, but hey - it's still in my
real name:
[http://www.lyndsysimon.com/category/politics.html](http://www.lyndsysimon.com/category/politics.html)

> If you actually had opinions many people disagreed with strongly, you'd be
> bullied and held back as well.

Did you read my last paragraph? I'm an anarchist. The license plate on my Jeep
is literally "ANARCHY." I'm actually not sure I could name a political
position that's more strongly opposed by more people.

[edited for spelling]

~~~
magashna
>I'm an anarchist. The license plate on my Jeep is literally "ANARCHY."

Paying the government a premium to say you don't believe in it, that's rich.

~~~
mtberatwork
Reminds me of the people who pay extra to the state to have the Gadsden flag
license plate.

~~~
blaser-waffle
They love those in Virginia

~~~
LyndsySimon
Ha! Funnily enough, I lived there for five years. My Arkansas "ANARCHY" plate
replaced my Virginai "4NO GOV" plate:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/279byb/...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/279byb/after_over_a_year_driving_a_jeep_with_expired/)

------
kinkrtyavimoodh
I think HN should in particular not feel informed enough to comment on
strategic benefit of product decisions like these, because the general HN
opinion of FB which is at such odds at FB's place in society is enough to
conclude that HN doesn't really understand FB.

HN is a SV or SV-adjacent bubble that takes pride in not having social media
profiles and doesn't hesitate in boasting about it in every frigging thread,
multiple times a day. In contrast, (b)millions around the world find value in
social media every single day and use it for all kinds of applications.

I am confident FB understands this much better than people like us here who
can't think of any good use cases of social media without presenting 10 riders
to assure the crowd that we hate FB.

~~~
asteli
I take issue with your characterization of FB non-users on HN boasting about
it. I deleted my FB years ago and I would never do such a thing.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
I know we generally discourage humor and satire here but I think this comment
nailed it in a very HNesque way.

------
donatj
This seems like something they should have added ten plus years ago, when
their demo was primarily college kids.

I know many people who were clamoring for it at the time. It would have been
an obvious addition as dating and relationships were a large part of the
reason a lot of people _used_ Facebook. I half suspect this is an attempt to
pull college kids back into Facebook.

I think they missed their chance with this by a long shot.

~~~
paxys
This _is_ what Facebook was ten years ago. The problem is dating wasn't as
successfully monetized as it is today. Tinder/Bumble/CMB etc. have cracked
that code, and Facebook wants to get in on it.

~~~
WhompingWindows
How is that correct? 10 years ago, it was mostly young folks, college, HS,
20-somethings. There was a good deal of dating-related activity happening, but
the vast majority of FB back then was not related to dating.

~~~
paxys
The scene in _The Social Network_ about adding relationship status to users'
profile sums it up perfectly. Facebook was a large catalog of your friends,
friends' friends, classmates, coworkers etc., and showed you their profiles,
pictures, if they were dating, who they were dating, their interests and more.
Facebook was the largest dating site in the world the moment it got popular.

~~~
kelnos
I don't agree. Allowing someone to list their relationship status on their
otherwise-non-dating-site profile is a far _far_ cry from providing tools and
UX to help people match with others they might be interested in.

Certainly people have found romantic partners on FB in the past 15 years, but
I would view that as in _spite_ of the lack of dating-related features. Up
until now, FB has not been geared toward or especially useful as a dating
platform, especially given the availability of dating apps that actually fill
that niche.

I think FB Dating has the potential to be _way_ more successful to a
mainstream audience than nearly any dating app built to date, though.

~~~
MegaButts
I can't believe you guys are arguing over whether or not Facebook used to be a
dating site and nobody has mentioned the "poke" button.

~~~
tgb29
When I was in high school, back before the news feed, Facebook was the best
way to flirt! Go to someone’s page and post a comment — it was was so casual.
Too bad Facebook killed it when they started broadcasting everything you post.

~~~
newsgremlin
This is why people defaulted to Snapchat shortly after. Having temporary
messages/pictures was ideal when after seeing evidence of failed
relationships, people wanted the evidence of early flirting to be gone from
the record.

------
nasalgoat
This has been live in Canada for some time in a "beta" incarnation, and from a
purely product standpoint it is terrible.

The UI is just bad. You cannot browse profiles, you must say "yes" or "no" and
the decision is final. If you scroll down to read a profile more, when you
pass, it leaves you in the same scroll spot in the next profile. This is User
Interface 101 level stuff. The list of problems goes on from there.

Everything about it says "throwaway add-on" that they haven't spent any real
time on optimizing.

When originally announced, Match stock dropped 25% on the news, only to bounce
back. I don't see this product really making a big dent in the Match bottom
line.

~~~
haunter
>The UI is just bad. You cannot browse profiles, you must say "yes" or "no"
and the decision is final.

So Tinder?

~~~
nasalgoat
Yes, but on Tinder the profiles will re-appear later when you go back to swipe
again. Other apps allow general browsing and better photo viewing too.

~~~
dymk
Wait, are you saying that Tinder will show you accounts that you've swiped
left on at a later date? I have not found that to be the case.

~~~
nasalgoat
Yes, I've personally seen memorable profiles come back later. It's one way to
make the app seem busier with more people.

~~~
dymk
Interesting. I wonder if this is people deleting and re-creating accounts? Or
spam accounts using the same images?

~~~
nasalgoat
Oh, that might be possible. I mostly remember the photos and not the details
of the profile, which by design is pretty thin as it is.

------
TallGuyShort
"Secret Crush Lists"

Yeah that doesn't sound like something that'll end up on Pastebin.

~~~
erikig
When the largest accompanying FB news headline is: "Over 400 million Facebook
users' phone numbers exposed" this feels like the most poorly timed product
launch.

~~~
deminature
I assume they're thinking the groups of people that read security disclosure
articles and those that would use FB dating are disjoint. They're probably not
wrong.

~~~
jerf
We overestimate change in the short-term but underestimate it in the long
term. Any individual news story isn't going to be the reason Facebook loses
75% of their users over night, but the steady march of these stories isn't
going to have no effect. I find it easy to imagine a world where in 5-10
years, Facebook is a complete non-entity, and for all the articles written
that claim to understand why, nobody will actually be able to point at any
small set of events as an explanation. It could be the very small
contributions of a lot of events.

I (physically) don't live in SV or its bubble, and I can assure you, the news
that Facebook isn't necessarily trustworthy is getting out there to "the
masses". It isn't necessarily changing people habits yet, but the process is
certainly started. By the time it causes noticeable problems for Facebook, it
may be too far progressed for them to do anything about it.

~~~
deminature
I agree with you, but Facebook seems be aware and is mitigating using brands
like Instagram and Whatsapp which average people don't associate with
Facebook. If they keep acquiring undervalued social companies and downplaying
their ownership, I could see them sticking around for quite a while
unfortunately.

------
carlosdp
So, I'd use this, as someone who has trouble getting matches on dating apps
usually. Facebook already has the largest issue for dating apps solved: the
network chicken-and-egg problem. Dating apps are non-exclusive, I have 3
installed on my phone and using an additional one isn't a big deal.

If they are able to provide a differentiated feature set from other apps
because they can better leverage FB interest data, I don't see why this
couldn't work.

Is anyone else on this thread even in the dating scene right now? I really
don't see how this is a plainly bad idea.

~~~
hombre_fatal
Also, what people on HN seem to be missing is that with dating, I don't care
where I get my "leads" from. I can be using every single dating app at once,
so what do I care about clicking "enable dating" on Facebook?

Facebook gave me a notification to try FB Dating the other week. I clicked it,
chose my pics, and was on the meat market immediately, receiving phone
notifications like "Karen liked you" just like any other dating app. I click
it, view their profile, and start messaging them. Being linked to Facebook
profiles, I also have more trust in the other party which is how Tinder
started out.

HN rants so consistently about dating apps that I think it's mostly just
ranting about dating in general.

Facebook is ubiquitous in Mexico where I live. And when I go back to the
States and meet people 20-35 downtown, I have yet to find people who aren't on
Facebook. I think HNers vastly overestimate the exodus from Facebook, if there
is one, just because we like to cover FB's privacy issues here on HN.

~~~
everythingswan
I haven't read all the comments in this thread but I do agree with the idea
that this _could_ erode trust even more, ultimately being one of the 1,000
cuts that causes their death. I don't see a big problem with it in general or
in the short-term and it's something that's been thrown around for years: why
doesn't FB do dating?

In reality, you nailed my experience with dating apps (self + friends on
them). Every single person I know uses multiple since the source of a date
does not matter to them. They just want what they're looking for. The cost to
use an app is so low and context switching is easy enough. And everyone hates
on some or all of them...and continues to use all of them.

Many of the non-tech people I meet in real life don't even know the difference
between an app and the mobile web. They know interfaces well enough to get the
things they need done, done.

FB already has the social layer and lots of other data, so I don't foresee
this as a terrible idea. Seems more like a small bet.

------
peterkelly
_" If your crush isn’t on Dating, doesn’t create a Secret Crush list, or
doesn’t put you on their list — then no one will know that you’ve entered
their name."_

I'm looking forward to watching the shitstorm when that info gets leaked or an
exploit is found that allows you to see whose lists you're on.

~~~
e12e
You add all your friends to your secret crush list, and find everyone who's
added you? The exploit is built in.

~~~
loser777
It sounds like they limited this to 9 friends, but if you can still cycle
through the list it’ll be problematic.

~~~
hombre_fatal
You presumably will still avoid obvious social nukes like crushing on your
friend's wife.

I don't see much downside to the crush system. If someone's going to have a
hissy fit or ruin relationships because they insist on doing the work of
cycling through all their friends, then, well, they should be careful for what
they wish for.

------
francisofascii
Reminds me of this dialog from the Social Network movie:

 _Relationship Status, Interested In. This is what drives life at college. Are
you having sex or aren’t you. It’s why people take certain classes, and sit
where they sit, and do what they do, and at its, um, center, you know, that’s
what the Facebook is gonna be about. People are gonna log on because after all
the cake and watermelon there’s a chance they’re actually gonna, (get laid),
meet a girl. Yes._

~~~
par
That movie, like this sentiment about facebook, is now 9 years old.

------
JacKTrocinskI
Date your friends! :D On a more serious note though, why not? If their mission
is to help connect people and this helps connect people that otherwise had
trouble dating and this does so in a meaningful way then sounds good to me.
Privacy is always a concern no matter what the app/site/technology.

~~~
johnisgood
The article says this: Facebook Dating _won’t match you with friends_ , unless
you choose to use Secret Crush and you both add each other to your list. All
of your Dating activity will stay in Facebook Dating. It won’t be shared to
the rest of Facebook.

~~~
henrikschroder
> unless you choose to use Secret Crush

Add all your friends to Secret Crush. Watch who matched you.

"Sorry buddy, I wasn't really using the thing, I just added everyone, but
thanks for letting me know you like me!"

Idiots. And _this_ is why the shared identity is a terrible idea for dating
sites. You want dating profiles to be throwaway, and you want it to be hard
for your friends to find your dating persona for this reason!

But of course Facebook doesn't understand the need to keep secrets from (some
of) your friends.

~~~
gamblor956
You can only have 9 Secret Crushes at a time.

Believe it or not, they actually have put _some_ thought into their final
product based on the beta tests conducted in smaller international markets.

~~~
henrikschroder
Ok, so then you rotate that list through your friends. They might make it
tedious to go through all my friends, but if I'm determined enough, I can do
it.

~~~
gamblor956
No, because that would require you and your friends to be in each others crush
list _at the same time_.

Unless you and your friends only have 9 facebook friends each, you prove
nothing with this bizarre hypothetical you've constructed.

~~~
henrikschroder
People who seriously use this feature will put their secret crushes on the
list, and then forget about it.

I come along a few months later, and rotate all my friends through this list,
and so I discover which of my friends have secret crushes on me, because I'm
not using the feature like you're "supposed" to.

~~~
gamblor956
It doesn't work that way based on the international betas, but if you want to
believe you've hacked Facebook Dating, go ahead and believe that if it will
make you feel better.

------
mabermoske
If I look at who I know that is still using fb it is almost exclusively older
people. I'm 33 and deleted my fb account, almost every person I know younger
than me either did the same or was never on in the first place.

I see this being huge for older adults who are divorced or widowed, those are
the people still using fb and I think would be happy to use this service.

~~~
hombre_fatal
Counter-anecdote: I'm 30 and have yet to meet someone in my dating/friend
range (20-35) that never had Facebook here in Mexico or home in Austin.

I'd be curious if you're socializing in some sort of anti-FB bubble or
actually have a sample size of like 5 people when you consider the people you
actually know this info about.

~~~
jessicalondon
Willing to date 10 years younger, but only 5 years higher.

Interesting.

~~~
hombre_fatal
Controversial in 2019, but youth is a perk if I get to choose with an "age
range" slider. Also, women 35+ are usually on a different clock than I am.

I'm happy to share more insight as a man dating at 30 if you want, but just
ask.

~~~
simias
This is veering wildly off topic but I'm curious: don't you think people in
their early 20's would also be on a wildly "different clock"? I'm only
slightly older than you are and through a weird series of event ended up
frequenting a WhatsApp group populated mainly by people in their early 20s and
the culture shock is pretty large.

People in their early 20's are generally students, they have different
priorities, lower incomes, different cultural differences etc... It seems
easier to find 40yo who share my interests and my lifestyle in my experience.

~~~
michaelt
The "different clock" hombre_fatal is referring to is the "biological clock"
\- A single childless woman aged 35 who wants a family with two or three
children has very little time to waste (assuming she wants a traditional two-
biological-parent family structure which is _extremely_ common among members
of the upper middle class).

They need someone ready to make a lifetime commitment - and as it's rare to
marry without dating for at least a year or so, they've only got a few rolls
of the dice left.

If that's not where hombre_fatal is in his life, such women won't see a future
with him.

------
ken
"a Dating profile (separate from your main profile)" "Secret Crush lists" "All
of your Dating activity will stay in Facebook Dating" "Feel safe by sharing
details"

I don't know how anyone who's read a news article about Facebook in the past
year (or browsed the web and glanced at the ads they get) can believe any of
this.

~~~
grecy
I actually laughed out loud when I read this. What a sad joke/lie.

------
d--b
This may feel weird to us, HN people. But perhaps it’s the good move for
Facebook because a lot of people use it differently than we do.

There are a lot of people using Facebook as a serious communication platform
(think your mum and dad, or your friends from high school). These guys aren’t
hiding who they are much on facebook.

They’ll probably get way better matches on Facebook than on traditional dating
sites.

This is not a competitor to Tinder, I see this as a serious dating site for
shyer or older people.

------
spyckie2
Whereas tinder, instagram, and others value add is from their content, the
value of Facebook (the platform) has always been the network.

Facebook as a company has always been chasing after content. This is because
content has a direct and clear monetization strategy whereas helping people
make use of their network is difficult to make money from. Well, it shows -
$40bn in revenue, 80% of it in ads.

Helping people to use their network effectively is basically charity work to
Facebook. How are you going to at-scale monetize that out? The answer: you
don't.

But with some irony, after chasing content for over a decade, I think Facebook
is now in a position to do some charity work. Similar to Google, who saturated
their ad team's return on value and has it's employees working on moonshots
all day, Facebook can now afford to sit on their content engines and attack
problem spaces that are harder to monetize and solve but provide more
meaningful value.

Long story short, I think it's the right time for Facebook's hayday to sneak
up on us because it can quietly focus on adding real value via our networks
without chasing after money from them.

I really like the idea of Facebook Dating, because 1) it already has the
network and doesn't need to build it, and 2) it doesn't need to make money.

Most dating apps suffer under the pressure to make money and grow. For a
dating app to grow it has to focus on building cohesive user bases that find
value in each other and eventually creates its own ecosystems that damages the
experience for others (i.e. hookup culture). While Facebook Dating might still
have some of that, I could see it ending up as a more serious dating platform
because it doesn't need to focus on user growth.

How would you monetize Marketplace? Facebook Dating? The answer is: you don't
care that much, throw some ads on it and let it cover costs. 7-8 years ago
when people were searching for Facebook's killer money printing machine, these
projects would have a lot of pressure to make a lot of money. Nowadays,
sheltered by the content engine that Facebook has amassed, these projects can
focus on providing immediate and strong value through Facebook's core benefit
(it's network) and hold off on how to make money for a couple of years.

Sounds familiar? It sounds a lot like Gmail.

------
AlphaWeaver
>The consolidation of social activities (such as the process of dating, dating
apps, and the network effects that result) into these walled gardens makes
being a conscientious objector of social media more challenging each time they
announce a feature like this. I and others don't want to use Facebook. Please
don't leave us with no choice.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19790889](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19790889)

~~~
gtirloni
> I and others don't want to use Facebook. Please don't leave us with no
> choice

What? You don't want to use then don't use it. That's your choice.

~~~
smacktoward
Literally the entire lesson of the social networking age is that it's _not_
entirely your choice. If everyone you know is on Facebook, and everyone you
want to date is on Facebook, all the events you want to attend are organized
on Facebook, etc., you have very strong pressures on you to use Facebook,
whether you want to or not.

~~~
briandear
Nonsense. Just don't use Facebook. Send email or use iMessage/Signal whatevs.
If you are "left out" \-- then those people probably cared about your
involvement only superficially. As far as people you want to date -- how weird
would it be to actually talk to the person? You'd stand out from the crowd
specifically because you aren't like everybody else. Grow a spine.

~~~
SkyPuncher
Not using Facebook is fine for direct conversations. It really isn't an option
in larger groups.

\----

Here's a great example. I go on a canoe weekend with a bunch of old friend
each year. Some years it has an upwards of 100 people attending. I know about
10 to 20 people, including the hosts, very well. The rest are either
acquaintances, second connections, or friends/family of the hosts.

Everything gets done via a Facebook event because it's the easiest way for the
hosts to communicate with a group of 100 people. A few people "refuse" to use
Facebook so all communication with them about the event has to be done on a
secondary channel. Sometimes those people accidentally get left out of
important notices. It's nothing malicious, just the hosts having jobs and busy
lives and forget about a few odd ones out.

~~~
rubbingalcohol
I don't use Facebook. When I want to hang out with friends, I call or text
them on my mobile phone. If I want to invite people to an event, I call or
text them on my mobile phone. Or if we're hanging out I'll say something like
"we should go to [event] next week!"

I haven't used Facebook for years and it has not obstructed my social life in
any way.

------
yalogin
I don’t get their strategy. Why are they patching on to Facebook like this?
Would this dating feature not be better strategically in Instagram? Facebook
is rotten in the minds of users but IG is not yet.

~~~
buro9
Dating makes money, Tinder is successful, so Facebook are leaving money on the
table... or worse, letting someone else take the money from the table... if
they don't do dating.

Of course, the pool of potential people you can date is "those on Facebook",
so that's hilarious and compounds existing problems with echo chambers.

~~~
jsjw7sbw
I would love a date people NOT on facebook app.

~~~
magduf
What about people like me, who have a FB account but never really do anything
with it?

The only things I use mine for are 1) using FB Messenger (lite) to communicate
with some other people who use that, and 2) selling some of my crap on FB
Marketplace.

------
nikolay
All dating apps target millennials... because they are developed by
millennials. When will SV get for once that they don't get their demographic
as they have nothing in common with people 40+. For example, except Microsoft,
no other SV company gets families. I was surprised by the idiotic family
support Google offers in their ecosystem and especially Google One. Same with
Spotify, Netflix, etc. Facebook with their "family" support of children less
than 13 is totally idiotic as well (scrapbooks or whatever they call it) - and
so is their "dating" app! They just don't innovate these days - they just copy
competitors in sick hopes to make people come back.

~~~
electricslpnsld
> All dating apps target millennials

Millennials are almost in their 40s now! The prime dating app market (low to
mid 20s) is now Gen Z.

~~~
nikolay
True about millennials and Gen Z, but "millennial" now acquired the meaning of
"ungrounded young people". It depends on what you call a "market". Real dating
apps charge fees and don't have hidden agendas like Facebook (rule the world
and sell your data to advertisers) - that's what I call a "dating app market".
Sifting thru photos is not really dating - especially Instagram and Facebook
photos, which, in most cases, are twisted reality.

------
madrox
Seeing something like this come out of Facebook makes me glad to be married.
Is it a good idea for them? Yes. Will people use it? Probably. Is it a little
creepy to imagine a company that’s already under constant scrutiny about how
it handles your data to also know more about your dating life? Absolutely.

That said, Facebook is already out with 20-somethings. Is this really going to
used by that audience? Or is this replacing Yahoo Personals for 40-somethings?

~~~
kgraves
They already own Instagram, WhatsApp and Messenger.

If they can't get them on FB, the features will trickle down towards the
family of apps, maybe under a different app name or feature.

~~~
madrox
Instagram Dating or WhatsApp Dating actually sounds hilarious and I want to
see those.

------
strikelaserclaw
Finally, all the tracking they've done on their users over many years could
yield the best matching algorithm :|

~~~
cameronbrown
Dating sucks, but I'm still more uncomfortable with the idea of somebody's
initial meeting being reduced to matching algorithms.

~~~
strikelaserclaw
In my opinion, it might actually prove to be better than letting people decide
based on super superficial attributes on dating profiles. Online dating
completely sucks, guys have no choice, girls have too many bad choices.

~~~
ssully
There are other dating apps outside of Tinder and Bumble. I am married, so I
don't use them personally, but my friends use/used Tinder/Bumble for more
casual dating/hook ups. When they were looking for something a little more
serious they would use something like OK Cupid to provide matches based on
similar interests.

Either way, I don't see how online dating will ever not suck. I have no clue
how it is in gay communities, but I do not see straight people's problems ever
being different: i.e. Women having to deal with the ocean of terrible men, and
Men having the problem of trying to stand out in that ocean (and in some of my
male friends cases, not being so picky).

~~~
hombre_fatal
Online dating just makes obvious the reality of actual dating.

For example, HNers talk about online dating as though they think they aren't
being sized up in real life based on their looks and how they dress. And that
it wasn't until Tinder that people started doing this.

------
akerro
> It takes the work out of creating a dating profile and gives you a more
> authentic look at who someone is.

It feels like most people post too many fake pictures, news and crap on their
profiles and this isn't going to be a good idea. "Look guys, I'm happy on
Virgin Islands, like this!" (also on Prozac)

------
deftnerd
With Facebook's embracing of machine learning and their very deep dataset of
personal information about users, this could be quite an amazing user
experience and quite a terrifying prospect for privacy.

Facebook has a wealth of information on social relationship interactions and
also on personal interests. Adding in information on romantic relationship
interactions will allow them to (eventually, when the ML models are well-
trained) provide amazing matches for users. The downside is that they'll now
have a deep understanding of yet another aspect of your persona.

What are the dangers? How can they monetize this new relationship knowledge?

* Life insurance companies might want to know if someone is prone to date adrenaline junkies and be easily coerced into participating. * Insurance might want to know if someone "hooks up" frequently, which could indicate that the person is at risk of medical problems _OR_ has issues with impulse control. * Dating profiles often match people by self-reported social activities like doing drugs, drinking, etc. That might be of interest to lots of companies. * Relationship going well? Expect to see a lot of ads related to co-habitation (joint checking accounts, moving services, etc) * If the dating service has a "feedback" component to allow people who go on dates to give information on aspects of the other persons personality, facebook might get information about a person that they don't even realize themselves and thus don't self-report. Such as the other person dresses badly, smells funny, needs dental work, tips well, etc. * If facebook determines that you tend to fall for a certain types of physical traits, ads featuring models with those traits will become a thing. * People don't give facebook every bit of information about themselves, but they do give it to dating services.

Think of all those questionnaires that ask about your opinions on abortion, if
you want to have kids, if dating someone with different political beliefs is a
hard pass, etc. Dating services use it to match people up who might be
compatible, but Facebook will use it help advertisers get even more granular
controls over their targeted users.

Even worse, if Facebook wants a certain political party to win, they could
match up people who are firmly established in the political party they choose
with people who are on the fence in order to let the dominant personality win.

------
sureste
Off-topic, but the number of times people misspell Colombia as Columbia is
very high and I'm (more) disappointed in FB for letting it pass.

~~~
copperx
It grinds my gears too. Mnemonic for anyone that struggles with it:

ColOmbia is the cOuntry.

ColUmbia is the shUttle (or University).

~~~
twic
Or:

Columbia is named after Christopher Columbus

Colombia is named after Cristoforo Colombo

If you can remember which countries traditionally mostly speak English, and
which mostly spoke a Romance language, you have a shot at getting it right.

------
rblion
I wonder how this fares for Tinder and Bumble. People already use Instagram to
'source' potential mates. Now they can delete one more app off their phone,
remember one fewer login.

Nobody I know uses Snapchat anymore because of Instagram stories.

~~~
blackflame7000
Which is why I can't for the life of me understand why people value companies
like snapchat so highly when they are simply the current fad. Then you see oh
they lost $20 Billion since their IPO and you wonder why people with that much
money can't see what's clear as day to me. In 5 years, snapchat will be
myspace, I'm willing to bet on it.

------
booleandilemma
I’m still waiting for LinkedIn dating.

~~~
rcpt
or Blind

------
dannykwells
What could possibly go wrong??

~~~
false-mirror
Wild no one is addressing the floodgate of harassment this is opening. At
least when one is harassed on another app they can just close it or delete
your account and the harasser has little recourse.

Given their history, FB will likely just let this mess fester

------
mancerayder
Yup, great idea! Cue the 'calling out' posts, the bitter posts when it does
not work out, the wackos of all ages, and a new culture of publicly describing
your personal life in a new reality TV-like, shameless manner.

Some years back a nephew (who was about 18 then), had a public back and forth
with his girlfriend while their many friends Liked each post like two teams.

Let's bring the hyperreality to dating. I won't participate but I'll surely be
watching the results.

------
gormo2
Online dating seems to be a perennial problem, like a note-taking or "todo
app" that attracts many different approaches from startups, but whose end
result never quite scratches the itch (for me, at least).

a bit offtopic, but have any HN users successfully used dating websites in the
past 2-3 years to find long-term partners or spouses? If so, which did you use
and do you feel the site/app helped facilitate that process, or was it more of
luck that it worked out?

~~~
hombre_fatal
I've met three girlfriends on Tinder that I dated for more than a year.

Dating is always a crap shoot and there's nothing an app can do about it
except expose you to volume and ensure you're seeing women who think you're
attractive at all. I don't think there's anything I can know about someone
that can predict if we'll have chemistry, and that's almost all that matters
in the sense that it's not a choice for either person nor can you make it past
a meetup without it. For that reason I'm interested in meeting basically any
woman I'm attracted to, and that's exactly what an app like Tinder
facilitates.

I've had zero chemistry with women everyone thought were perfect for me. And
I've had long relationships with complete opposites. The question is simple:
wanna grab a drink or not?

Dating isn't an easy problem. And the reality of it feels cold and cruel to
begin with. Apps can't fix that part. There are always people out there who
won't even give you a shot because of something out of your control, and
that's a hard pill for some to swallow.

------
b_tterc_p
It sounds to me like a primary use case of this would be... cheating...

Unlike other dating platforms, this one is integrated with your supposedly up
to date profile. Being able to set up a low risk secret crush with a known
friend seems likely to be popular to those interested in doing so.

That is to say, a person who wants to cheat has no problem having a Facebook
profile, so there’s not a need for anonymity against being found by known
acquaintances like you might expect on other platforms.

~~~
vermarish
There's no way Facebook would allow someone to use Facebook Dating while their
relationship status is set to "married" or "in a relationship." That leaves
only alternate accounts as an option for someone using their dating to cheat,
but I dont think Facebook has much of an alternate account culture.

Unless someone has an account for personal use and an account for "work" use
that they cheat with? And their work friends list are all part of the pool for
the Facebook dating protocol? That would get real messy.

~~~
b_tterc_p
I look forward to seeing if your first statement is true.

~~~
b_tterc_p
Seems like it was false! You can use this while married on Facebook

------
bengotow
Man what a shame, if they weren't a decade late (both in terms of competition
and in terms of folks having trust in Facebook), this could have been cool.

------
hmmmhmmmhmmm
Facebook has 10+ years of data about people and their friendships and
relationships unfolding through time (tagged pictures, relationship status,
updates, likes, etc.). It's hard to tell if they've built and deployed such a
model for proposing matches, but this could be their killer feature.
Superficially, this product seems no different from existing data apps.

~~~
Lramseyer
That was what I thought! I’m a pretty anti-Facebook person, and I don’t have a
profile anymore. But facebook has data on you both explicit and implicit. They
can predict your mental health state, socioeconomic status, and they have tons
of data on the formation of relationships and marriages. They can even predict
who you like and who you’re going to date next. As creepy as that data is, why
shouldn’t they use it to actually connect people who they would predict to be
compatible? A huge problem for online dating platforms is making good
suggestions, and Facebook is probably the most well equipped to address it.

------
mberning
They did it with marketplace and took a very significant bite out of places
like craigslist. I’m sure they can do the same for dating.

~~~
johnmaguire2013
I did not expect Marketplace to take off and now it's a must-check before
Craigslist.

~~~
magduf
Not only that, but as much as I like to bad-mount FB, I will say that when I
post stuff on FB Marketplace to sell, I _never_ get people saying they want to
buy it from me with a cashier's check. There are a lot of flakes, however, but
that's the case with CL as well, but I've never run across a scammer, whereas
on CL I get scammers all the time with the stupid cashier's check scam.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
This is totally regional and item category specific. Anything primarily bought
sold by the people that write "I check email once a week and don't text so
call me" in their CL ads is not going to be on marketplace.

~~~
magduf
I don't follow. I can post the exact same listing on FBM and CL, and with CL I
get bombarded with scammers, and with FBM I never do. In fact, with FB, I'm
not sure _how_ you would ever get contacted by scammers at all, since it's
tied to your FB account, so someone would have to go to the trouble of
maintaining a fake FB account just for this purpose, and it would presumably
be quickly flagged and disabled as soon as a couple people got obvious scam
communications from it. For better or worse, the "real person" feature about
FB and lack of privacy, actually seems to work in its favor here. Anyone with
a phone (or who can spoof a phone number in your area code from Nigeria) can
contact you on a CL listing, whereas with FB the bar is much, much higher and
there's a lot more policing.

------
john-radio
Does this service exist only as an app at this time? I have long ago decided
that Facebook is not trustworthy enough for it to be allowed to have an app
installed on my smartphone. Which I guess should remind me that it is not
trustworthy enough to run a dating service that I should take part in.

------
timdavila
And it looks like they're already anticipating your privacy questions:
[https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2019/09/privacy-matters-
dating/](https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2019/09/privacy-matters-dating/)

~~~
gjulianm
> That means we won’t create a Facebook Dating profile for your account unless
> you specifically choose to create one.

Does not specify if they will be data mining my profile for dating-related
analytics.

> Your Dating activity, such as people you like or pass on, won’t be shared
> with anyone outside Dating.

What does 'anyone' mean? Do they refer to other users or do they also close
the door to advertisers to show you ads based on who you like?

Also, why is Europe outside of the first launch? Does it have anything to do
with GDPR? It's just suspicious.

Each time Facebook comes closer to the Black Mirror version of it...

------
arrosenberg
Hard pass. The last thing we need is Steve Bannon targeting ads at people
based on who they've dated.

------
Diti
Dating platforms are incentivized to keep the client (whether they are a
paying customer, or an individual giving them passive income through
advertising) from leaving the platform. What do you think is in Facebook’s
interest? You leaving the platform to live a satisfying love life?

~~~
ken
I hate to say it, but this is actually an advantage of FB here. Once you're no
longer dating, you'll still use their platform, just like you did before. They
have no incentive to keep you in the dating pool.

~~~
badwolf
This has been my thought on why FB will probably do fantastic in this space.

------
peterwwillis
It doesn't seem to do anything that a normal "Dating" app does. It's just a
private friends list. You can already like and message people you have a crush
on, without this. Who is this for?

 _" Secret Crush lets you match with people you already know on Facebook
and/or Instagram."_

Because what people have been clamoring for is to know which of their friends
like them more than is mutual, so they can feel weird.

 _" You can choose to see other people who are using Facebook Dating that fit
your preferences within the groups you are part of and the events you have
attended or will be attending."_

'Oh look, this person at this upcoming event is looking for a date! I'll go
hit on them in person without messaging them.'

~~~
magduf
>Because what people have been clamoring for is to know which of their friends
like them more than is mutual, so they can feel weird.

I haven't read the article, but I'm guessing this is probably a typical 2-way
match algorithm, or else it really doesn't make sense. i.e., both friends have
to put the other in their "secret crush" list for it to inform them that they
have a crush on each other.

What they really need is a "secret crush for FWB only" list: what if I have a
friend that I'd be happy to be FWB with, but have zero interest in a serious
relationship, but don't want to broach that topic with her for fear that it
would mess up our friendship? This would be a perfect use for FB.

~~~
FillardMillmore
>What they really need is a "secret crush for FWB only" list: what if I have a
friend that I'd be happy to be FWB with, but have zero interest in a serious
relationship, but don't want to broach that topic with her for fear that it
would mess up our friendship? This would be a perfect use for FB.

Now there's an idea!

~~~
peterwwillis
So just straight up ask the person "Have you ever thought about us hooking
up?". If they don't want it, they'll just decline, and you can both get over
it. Or they'll think you're a creep, and you won't be friends anymore, which
is probably for the best seeing as you were harboring secret desires for this
person.

Either way, being up-front and honest will have a better result than letting
Facebook connect you because you were too scared to broach the subject.

~~~
magduf
>Because what people have been clamoring for is to know which of their friends
like them more than is mutual, so they can feel weird.

How the hell is this something despicable and wrong in your eyes? Honestly,
you sound like you have some kind of psychological problem if you think it's
wrong to be attracted to a friend.

~~~
peterwwillis
Calm down buddy. A lot of people are weirded out when they find out their
friends want to screw them. It's a common problem for women that just want
platonic friends.

~~~
magduf
Don't tell me to "calm down"; you sound like a patronizing asshole. You're
injecting your prudish religious values here, not me. There's nothing wrong
with being sexually attracted to people, and if you only make friends with
opposite-sex people you find repulsive, then there's something wrong with you.

~~~
peterwwillis
I _am_ patronizing you, but I'm not religious or prudish in the least, and I
never said that nobody should ever be attracted to their friend; only that
_they might find it weird_. You're not really listening to what I'm saying,
though, you're just being defensive at the idea that your affections for your
friends might be regarded badly. You can feel however you want about others,
but don't expect them to be super flattered that you want to have sex with
them. (Ok, you can _expect_ whatever you want, but _reality_ might be a
different story)

~~~
magduf
>but don't expect them to be super flattered that you want to have sex with
them.

Why the hell do you think I made the suggestion in the first place? Of course
I realize this.

>and I never said that nobody should ever be attracted to their friend; only
that they might find it weird.

Wrong. You called me out as some kind of freak for being attracted to friends.
Go read your own writings above. The whole reason I made the suggestion is
because of course I realize some would find it weird (or more accurately,
uncomfortable) if their friend voiced their attraction out loud, so a 2-way
match app would solve this problem without anyone being made to feel
uncomfortable or anyone missing out on an opportunity because of being afraid
of making their friends uncomfortable. You're the one who said this was
morally wrong and that people should just tell their friends this and ruin
their friendships.

~~~
peterwwillis
I did say people should tell their friends, because I find being honest and
straightforward to be more virtuous (and realistic) than being secretive. But
I never called you a freak, and I certainly never said it was immoral to be
attracted to friends. If I thought those things I would just say so.

------
unethical_ban
I am shocked by the ignorance here. "Why would Facebook do this? Nobody trusts
them, they've run out of ideas, etc."

They're the largest social network in the world, and this site is a filter
bubble of privacy advocates and relatively anti-social people. Do you truly
believe there isn't a market on Facebook for dating? Do you really think
Facebook brand is universally tarnished in some way that this isn't a good
move for a company with such power and money on hand?

Come on.

I'm angry at myself for _not_ predicting this. Although back in the day, it
was allowable to search for people by a lot more filters, such as town,
interest, school, etc. to find people. Now it's doing it for you.

~~~
magduf
I really fail to see how trying to get into the dating market for 40-80 year
old right-wing conservatives is really going to help them. The 20-somethings
don't use FB, and sure as hell aren't going to use it for dating, and the
30-somethings probably aren't either.

~~~
kgraves
> The 20-somethings don't use FB, and sure as hell aren't going to use it for
> dating, and the 30-somethings probably aren't either.

Facebook has been known (and are starting to) take over their family of apps.
Instagram, WhatsApp and Messenger are already used by the 20 somethings and
all the founders are gone so they have full control over them.

I wouldn't be surprised that they would shower features into it's family of
apps that already exist on FB. (See Stories)

------
zwischenzug
The Secret Crush thing is going to spread like a hideous virus, and be cited
in many divorce papers...

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rNgCnY1lPg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rNgCnY1lPg)

------
dysoco
On a tangential note; there still seems to be a lot of improvements to be done
in the area of dating apps.

I still can't believe that in the era of Machine Learning, Big Data, etc.
Tinder insists on presenting me with people with certain characteristics that
I almost always pass up on.

Companies know with scarily accuracy which things I want to buy but can't
present me with someone I'd like to meet and which will potentially want to
meet me as well? (Or maybe there's no such person, heh).

Or maybe this is just so that I spend all my "Passes" and I buy Tinder Gold or
whatever their premium service is called...

------
Kalium
What I find most interesting about this is that a dating application finally
gets away from the core business model conflict. Facebook doesn't need users
to stay on the Dating application to be profitable.

------
crocbuzz
The one thing they failed to mention in this press release was pricing. All
the competing dating apps are so expensive. If this is free, that's a game
changer!

------
tracker1
Goodbye Match, Inc. - And frankly, Facebook is probably a better option, for
as bad as they are regarding privacy issues.

------
bambax
> _Facebook Dating makes it easier to find love through what you like_

I don't like Facebook... No dating for me!

Seriously, Facebook seems to be a tool for self-advertising (look at my
wonderful holiday photos), while dating is more personal/intimate/truthful (in
theory at least). How long can a relationship last that's not based on truth?

~~~
dymk
People who use dating apps usually quickly convert to one of two states: "meet
in person" or "stop contacting each other". You're suggesting that people
meeting in-person are going to be not truthful with each other in a way
different than any other dating app?

------
defnmacro
If I was an exec at Tinder what do you do here? There's nothing exactly that
differentiates FB Dating from Tinder and I can't think of an USP
differentiating the two, except that FB Dating may be more convenient.

Kind of an interesting precedent though that FB decided to build this in-house
rather than buy Tinder as well.

~~~
marcusjt
>There's nothing exactly that differentiates FB Dating from Tinder and I can't
think of an USP differentiating the two, except that FB Dating may be more
convenient.

I couldn't disagree more - Tinder shows you pretty much random people apart
from some incredibly basic criteria (age, gender, proximity) whereas FB has
the potential to be massively more effective at matching you given that it has
a huge wealth of information (e.g. liked posts, pages, etc) to draw upon to
select candidate matches to show you. It may naively assume that similarity is
always good and that isn't necessarily true so hopefully their algorithm isn't
so naive.

Either way, so FB's dating experience could completely destroy Tinder unless
they get their ass in gear quickly and deliver a more more success-focused
user experience, right now Tinder doesn't seem to care at all about match
quality, nor eliminating fake & dormant profiles.

------
zelon88
This could fill in nicely the void left in the dating scene by Craigslist's
rule changes not too long ago.

------
decebalus1
Heh.. This may actually work and I'm surprised it wasn't implemented sooner.

Back in the mid 2000's, I was on Hi5. So were a lot of people where I lived.
Although a social network, everyone I knew was using it solely for dating. I
got dozens of good dates from Hi5. It was pretty awesome.

------
js2
> Starting today, you can choose to opt into Facebook Dating and create a
> Dating profile (separate from your main profile) if you’re 18 years or older
> and have downloaded the most recent version of Facebook

So this is mobile-only? Exclusive of WhatsApp/Instagram, isn't that a first
for FB?

------
kart23
Can anyone tell me how to actually opt in and use dating? I cant find it in
the app on android.

------
rdtwo
This will be successful, the #1 cheating app will also be the #1 dating app
it’s a no brainer

------
bitL
Didn't Facebook originally start as a "reductionistic" way for nerds around
Mark to connect with "secret crushes" at Harvard? Didn't YouTube start as a
dating site at UIUC as well, for pretty much the same reasons?

------
notus
Seems weird it shows you mutual friends. Part of the appeal of online dating
is stepping outside of your friend circles and looking elsewhere. I definitely
wouldn't want to broadcast my dating profile to mutual friends either.

------
flr03
In a way this arrives extremely late, and minus the secret crush thing it's
very much copying Tinder's design. On the other hand I don't see the online
dating market collapsing anytime soon.

------
tempsy
I think it's a good opportunity to buy the small dip in Match. That stock has
done incredibly well (doubled this year) and every earnings report has been
massive as far as new subscriber count goes.

------
dzhiurgis
Finally grandparents around the world can find their partner!

------
mcbutterbunz
Considering FB has a history of running psychological tests on users, I can
easily see how their "Secret Crush Lists" could be used as a psychological
test.

------
FillardMillmore
It raises the question, where is the line drawn for FB users of things they
will refuse to share with Facebook and/or allow Facebook to control?

------
nnq
"Let's do Tinder... but with likes, shares & comments from your entire
(extended) family, and your boss!"

------
eddof13
Just saying, having used Facebook Dating in Mexico where it's been for a
while, much better return than on Tinder

------
HNLurker2
God have mercy be better than Tinder God have mercy be better than Tinder God
have mercy be better than Tinder

------
unsignedint
Tried to just to see... "We aren't suggesting people in your area yet." I
guess I will have to wait. At least this didn't reject me like other dating
sites did.

In any case, I'm not sure if I would be inclined actually meet someone from
the result. Maybe because of my demisexual nature, but am I the only one feel
reluctant to meet up with someone from dating sites?

------
29_29
April fools? Had to check my calendar

~~~
randomdata
I noticed the Dating tab show up a couple of months ago, so I'm only surprised
to learn it wasn't already official.

------
enjoyyourlife
It seems like that they are announcing this now in order to cover up the phone
number leak

------
bfrog
It's facebook official, its time to get the hell off facebook

~~~
bdcravens
With everything they've done, dating is the line they shouldn't have crossed?

------
app4soft
Would _Facebook Dating_ be competitor to _Tinder_?

------
mudlus
All the world is a stage, FB wants to be that stage.

------
indiantinker
Interesting choice of pilot countries/regions.

~~~
bdcravens
Probably choosing countries with fewer regulations for faster time to market
(they do say, for example, they're coming to Europe in 2020)

------
gameguy43
bug in the app on iPhone Xs: unable to leave "preview profile" step.

------
papito
Cool. I think I have a chance with all those wives of my friends that used to
be young and single.

------
kearneyandy
I'm honestly just surprised that "secret crush" translates to other languages

------
floatingatoll
The list of supported countries does not seem to include any GDPR country.

~~~
MrsPeaches
At the end of the list:

> It will be in Europe by early 2020.

------
raulgalera
isn't that what instagram is for?

------
algaeontoast
No thanks.

------
Temasik
cringe

------
OBLIQUE_PILLAR
no.

------
joelrunyon
Hard pass.

------
apexalpha
So, Tinder?

------
lerie
what a horrible idea for both facebook and its users

~~~
dang
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

------
malloreon
requiring installation of the FB app is a nonstarter.

------
jeffrogers
(now wishing HN had a downvote button)

~~~
chrisseaton
You want to downvote the story, because you don't like what it's about, rather
than you think it's bad reporting?

------
matchbok
FB has clearly run out of ideas.

~~~
bdcravens
Have they had new ideas? Seems to me they just take existing ones and just
execute better and/or leverage their network advantage.

------
_pmf_
Money, dating and social credit system in one place. How convenient.

~~~
dlivingston
It strikes me as similar to the 'super apps' in China, a la WeChat.

