
Germany will require all petrol stations to provide electric car charging - doener
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-autos/germany-forces-all-petrol-stations-to-provide-electric-car-charging-idUSKBN23B1WU
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cmrdporcupine
Seems like policy written by petrol car drivers and not well thought out. In
the future electric vehicle world 95% of charging will be done at home, or in
some facility near your rental building. Most EV drivers have no need to visit
charging stations unless they're going on an extended road trip, and then we
need a particular _kind_ of DC fast charging station.

I mean... I have an EV and I could count on two hands the number of times I've
even used a public charging station. I charge at home, commute to work, charge
up some there sometimes, and then return home and plug in. I have a "gas
butler" [1] at home. Stopping at a gas station is a thing of the past for me,
unless I need to pick up windshield wiper fluid.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7Y3OmHsck](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7Y3OmHsck)

~~~
qayxc

      Most EV drivers have no need to visit charging stations [...]
    

You do realise that we're talking about Germany here, don't you? You cannot
apply US standards to a foreign country with 7x the population density and
only a ~50% home ownership rate...

The fact of the matter is, that half of German households cannot charge their
vehicles at home, because they live in a rented apartment.

In cities in particular (you know, the places where EVs make the most sense),
many people don't have a garage - often not even a dedicated parking spot.

This is an actual problem that prevents many people from owning an EV in
Germany.

~~~
askvictor
You are totally correct, yet OP's point is still reasonable - this was written
from the perspective of a petrol-car driver; moreover, it's a missed
opportunity to think differently. Petrol stations require big tanks
underground to store the petrol; we don't have pipelines through the city
carrying petrol. On the other hand, we do have a massive network of wires
carrying electricity. EV charging can so easily be distributed, that there is
simply no need for 'petrol stations.' Put charging spots directly on the
street and other parking places, with an app/API to show availability. Monitor
demand, and add more in hotspots.

~~~
gpsx
What would be a good use of gas stations for electric cars is battery
swapping. It is too early to make this mandatory but I think it might be time
to start working on this idea. (It has been looked into before.)

~~~
Zanni
Battery swapping was an idea that made sense when battery tech wasn't as good
and ranges weren't as great, but its window has passed. You might be thinking
of Better Place, which actually launched a battery-swap station. It made sense
(some) sense at the time to spend 5 minutes on a battery swap that would
otherwise take 6 hours to charge for 111 miles of range. But today, right now,
you can spend 20 minutes to get 174 miles of range at a supercharger.

~~~
anoncareer0212
...which is also why it's a bit frustrating to see people saying "Oh, this is
from the perspective of gas guzzlers!"...no it isn't. this is a huge win,
we're not trying to replace all infrastructure overnight, but it lowers the
inconvenience of a marginal EV greatly...174mi in 20 min is damn good, that's
4 of my loooong commutes

~~~
zamfi
Only if they put in fast chargers, though. If they put in L2 (i.e., 8 hours
for a full charge) chargers, it’s worse than useless.

------
cgb223
While I’m all for a future full of electric cars, I wonder what kind of
financial burden this will put on petrol stations or even if charging stations
fit the same paradigm as gas pumps since they take much longer to charge

~~~
vazamb
Petrol stations in Germany make almost no money on petrol. I think it was
something along the lines of 2-3 cents/liter. I am quite sure that they will
be happy to have customers stay in their shop for longer.

~~~
raphaelj
That's still quite some decent margin. It takes about 5 minutes for me to fill
my 40L tank, which would be about 1€. Everything is automated, there is
absolutely no human involved, and it works 24/24.

~~~
est31
There are extreme construction costs for petrol stations. It's highly
regulated due to the fire risk and other issues. You can't even lead surface
water into the gutter without prior filtering.

[https://www.abwasser-
analysezentrum.de/branchenuebersicht/mi...](https://www.abwasser-
analysezentrum.de/branchenuebersicht/mineraloelhaltiges-abwasser)

------
11thEarlOfMar
This begs a larger question of how petroleum mega corps are going to weather
the transition to electric vehicles. Looking at BP, margins are really poor.
They have $22 Billion in cash vs. $11 Billion operating expenses and $24
Billion in debt.

There is time: in March, 2% of new vehicles sold in Europe were BEV. On the
other hand, the total spend on electricity per mile driven is 1/3 that of
petrol. That means a complete transition would ultimately yield 1/3 the
revenue. In order to remain even, the companies would need to see 3x the gross
margin on the electricity than they gain on petrol. Is that possible? BP's
gross margin is 7.5% (TTM). Can they get <20% gross margin on electricity?

Maybe. But the real killer is people charge at home, over night. So, no.
Electric charge stations will not supplement petrol station revenue. They are
toast. They'll need to find entirely new businesses to invest in to survive.

~~~
def8cefe
Looking at just gas stations, they could spin it into a benefit since the
customer will be required to stay at the station for a significant amount of
time (~30 mins?) to charge instead of a few minutes.

You lure them in with the electricity then push all your high-margin crap on
them like drinks and snacks. It would massively increase foot traffic to
quick-service restaurants, cafes and other activities on or near the premises
as well.

People will go to stations less, but they will spend more time there. Current
EV utilization of paid, away-from-home chargers shouldn't be expected in
future when EV owners can't just rent a ICE vehicle for any trip greater than
~400km roundtrip.

~~~
fyfy18
In my country this is how the petrol stations stay relevant. Prices for fuel
are pretty consistent between them (unlike say Italy, where there can be a
20c/litre difference if you drive 100m to the next station) so they've had to
branch out to provide additional services.

All petrol stations that have a store have a selection of hot drinks and food,
and various other things you would expect form a corner shop. The prices are
lower than coffee shops, and in some cases better quality too (especially for
food). I saw one brand recently started selling their food on delivery
services as less people were travelling during quarantine.

Most of the automated stations (i.e. you can only pay at a machine, not they
fill up the car for you :D) share the premises with a fast-food restaurant.

Most EV chargers price their electricity at quite a bit higher than you would
pay at home, so in the short term I guess they can jump on this bandwagon. But
as range increases and cities start installing more on-street chargers that
model will fail too.

------
jillesvangurp
It's part of a bigger stimulus package for EVs, which of course is a thing
that German car manufacturers are investing in heavily. Effective or not,
Germany is preparing for a mass roll out of EVs over the next years and it's a
bit behind on charging infrastructure compared to neighboring countries. All
this is about pumping money into the local economies while helping the car
industry, which has been hit hard by the double whammy of Tesla eating their
lunch and the Corona crisis.

But of course it's doubtful that people will be using charging stations the
same way they use petrol stations. Mostly, it's more optimal to charge while
the vehicle is parked (at home or some place with a charge point) since it
takes a while for vehicles to fully charge. Also, you would not typically run
these things dry and instead charge to top up when convenient (i.e. not in a
hurry trying to get somewhere). And if you are really going to charge for
30minutes to an hour, do you want to be stuck at some gas station if you don't
have to? I'd probably opt for some more interesting places if I had the
choice.

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bsdubernerd
I'd really wish there was a standard for large-size battery packs an a simple,
open protocol for the battery to advertise charge/load limits as well as
charging method.

This would totally change the dynamic of EVs.

Go to a station, just hot-swap the batteries and be gone. Charging time
becomes irrelevant: the stations can be as small as they're now (parking
wire), they just need storage for hot batteries and chargers. Because that's
how you use anything _serious_ which is electric right now such as power tools
and drones: you don't wait for charging.

The idea of "waiting for charging" is something which is fine at home, or to
charge the secondary battery pack.

Batteries in modern e-bikes are almost that already. The battery itself
includes a controller which advertises what the batter can do often regulates
both charge and discharge. This allows the battery to be changed and upgraded
in the future.

The limiting factor is that currently every company that does this (f __you
bosch) wants to keep this as closed as possible, meaning that we essentially
can 't escape the vendor lock-in or even fix your own battery pack.

This needs to die. If I know I can get a charged battery at every station and
be paying for delivered power I wouldn't care less about having my own. This
would also put more incentives in keeping those packs as efficient as
possible, which in turns is incredibly good for the environment.

------
goatsneez
Political and ideological planning.. indeed what a wonderful idea as many
others that the world has had seen... except, as dictated by physics the
reality is not going to cooperate. Wrong economic signal crating overcapacity
where not needed and deficiency where needed. The goals under which this folly
is enforced will not be meet. And, the car industry, which will abuse the
"game" (as they should) will to push for further and prolonged subsidizing.

------
woodandsteel
The large perspective is that the transition to ev's is happening, with a
thousand steps along the way. My guess is that by 2030 a considerable majority
of new car sales will be ev's, and governments are going to have massive buy-
back programs to get all the ice's off the road.

------
exabrial
Why would you charge an electric car at a gas station? I thought the whole
point was charging at home

~~~
apexalpha
What if you are going somewhere 800km from your house?

~~~
exabrial
Fly I guess or rent a gas car. definitely not an application electric cars are
meant for given current technology

------
ketzu
Seems like a sensible move to improve charging capabilities in the country and
to reduce worry of potential customers, as gas stations are easy to find and
well distributed. Over time the charging should probably be implemented
elsewhere.

------
openfinch
This is a great start, but maybe they should do something about their use of
lignite coal. It kind of defeats the point of an electric vehicle if the power
it uses is being produced by burning about the dirtiest fuel out there..

------
adad95
How that would work? I park my car in the petrol station and return 8hours
later?

~~~
toomuchtodo
My Model S charges in 20 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger when not at home
(very occasionally 40 min if I’m on a road trip and am charging to 100% state
of charge). One of the grocery stores we frequent has a Supercharger station.
Mandate DC fast charging.

~~~
londons_explore
In europe most the cars don't support proper (>100kW) fast charging, and even
those that do have a myraid of incompatible standards.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Which is odd! Tesla has covered most of Europe with Superchargers, and
supports 250kw charge rates in many locations. Curious why other automakers
don’t support higher charge rates.

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
Die hohen Herren der heiligen Karre schätzen es nicht von einem Emporkömmling
getrieben zu werden.

The high Lords of the holy car dislike to be driven by some upstart/newcomer.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoNxS-s9nKQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoNxS-s9nKQ)

~~~
toomuchtodo
I’m enjoying the schadenfreude.

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
Good :)

------
gok
This is like requiring gas pumps at horse stables.

The cool thing about charging stations is they don't require big underground
tanks or really any more space than the parking spots. Put them where there's
already parking.

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gwbas1c
It makes more sense to require chargers at places people park at, like parking
garages, malls, theaters, workplaces, restaurants... Many businesses in the US
already need to comply with parking regulations.

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mixmastamyk
Gas stations are not completely obsolete, they have other uses, mini mart,
restroom, tire/window maintenance, potentially electric. Some portion of them
should continue to be useful.

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kevin_thibedeau
Doesn't seem practical for small gas stations with limited apron space for
cars to be loitering around.

------
LargoLasskhyfv
V-Plus! Virtually ripple current free ultra smooth fast loading!

Prices can vary by time of day and demand in our network. Consult our App.
(further conditions apply)

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
What? I didn't even mention the battery reconditioning by magical modulation!

edit: Thinking further about it I missed some "anti-sparqz".

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zizee
This seems a bit unfair/cruel considering electric cars will probably decimate
petrol stations. Most people will charge at home, or when parked at their
destination (like work).

Edit: Curious to know why this comment is unpopular?

~~~
prawn
Those petrol stations are going to cop it eventually anyway. This just
encourages them to hang a cable out the window to provide some incentive for
EV owners caught short.

In preparation for the end of pumping gas as we know it, petrol stations in
Australia have replaced the corner shops, delicatessens, etc. We don't have a
single 7/11 in South Australia.

~~~
zizee
It would make much more sense for Germany to pay for (or mandate) the
installation of electric car chargers at supermarkets and at strategic parking
spots in cities. Petrol stations will cease to exist, along with all those
mandated chargers.

> petrol stations in Australia have replaced the corner shops

Are petrol stations somehow responsible for consumer habits? What about sky-
high residential realestate prices that make cornershops too expensive to
open? Or low density housing that Australian cities are known for?

> We don't have a single 7/11 in South Australia.

There are plenty of convience stores in Adelaide, including ezimart and
nightowl. Perhaps 7/11 franchisee fees are too high?

~~~
prawn
7/11 exists in WA and the eastern states so it might not be franchise fees. In
Adelaide, OTR is a dominant brand, putting a petrol station in a corner
location along with quick essentials, coffee, fast food, etc.

Yes, of course real estate costs and subsequently rent make small business
difficult here.

City chargers with a time limit would make sense also. I've seen them in
various places here and abroad. One advantage of having them at petrol
stations (convenience stores in the future) is that people don't hang around
as long.

Last year when I was at a shopping centre in Century City LA, there was a line
to use the superchargers that would've been 10+ cars long. They might need to
add dozens of chargers to deal with future demand if people are shopping for
90 minutes.

~~~
caf
Superchargers charge idle fees if you leave the car there for more than 5
minutes after charging finishes.

------
moulei
IMO when electric cars self ignite, it can be a very dangerous ignition source
of gas stations

~~~
oh_sigh
You realize every ICE vehicle that drives into the gas station has little
explosions going on inside of it, right?

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
You know internal combustion engines have spark arrestors by regulation.

Your point still kind of stands: ICE engines aren't without fire risks.

~~~
oh_sigh
And yet, engine fires still happen, and yet gas stations reason for existence
is literally so gas powered cars can come up to it.

