
Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake - aaronbrethorst
https://theoutline.com/post/7315/apple-keyboards-still-suck-insanely-bad?zd=1&zi=qklqjspx
======
martinpw
The Benjamin Button review of improvements in older Macs compared with newer
ones:

[https://blog.pinboard.in/2016/10/benjamin_button_reviews_the...](https://blog.pinboard.in/2016/10/benjamin_button_reviews_the_new_macbook_pro/)

~~~
tzakrajs
Guess this guy was pleased with his slower processor too.

~~~
gnicholas
I spend less than 10% of my time at my computer maxing my processor. I spend
more than 90% of my time using the keyboard. I’ve seriously considered selling
my 2017 MBP and buying a 2018 MBA. Then I heard the problems still haven’t
been solved with that model and nixed that idea. But I would much rather have
a slower machine with a reliable/comfortable keyboard than a faster machine
with a brittle/uncomfortable one.

~~~
randallsquared
Speed and utilization are not the same. My 2018 MBP was a great speed
improvement over the 2015 MBP I previously used, even in cases where the 2015
MBP wasn't using all cores (which really rarely happened, since for the
workloads I use, multiple Electron apps and Docker for Mac, typing in Slack
would start stuttering as soon as multiple cores were in constant use). I
don't think it was ever usable enough at 6-7 cores maxed for me to start new
things to try to use that last core...

~~~
faizshah
I've had the opposite experience.

I use a mid 2012 retina that I bought used and have spilled water on 4 times.
I keep 10 chrome windows open with around 15-20 tabs open each. In addition to
microsoft word, sketch/figma, atom/pycharm/rubymine/intellij, multiple preview
books, multiple iterm instances, postgres, and the Books app.

I don't have any trouble except when using docker for mac (which I just use
the cloud for now) and photoshop.

I would like to get a new laptop though.

~~~
randallsquared
> I don't have any trouble except when using docker for mac

That's... the same experience? Not "opposite", for sure.

------
cmiles74
A co-worked of mine convinced the company to buy them a MacBook (the first the
company has ever purchased) to replace their aging Dell laptop. They have been
doing more and more work on the company's iOS app and the aging Mac mini the
company had purchased needed to replaced anyway.

After having the laptop for just over a year, they called me upset as the
laptop would no longer power on. After some gentle interrogation they admitted
that they had eaten a snack near the laptop and that, perhaps, a small amount
of seltzer had "hit the keyboard". I had them bring it to the Apple Store and
Apple refused to repair it under the warranty as it had "water damage." I had
asked the company to purchase the extended warranty but that had been lost in
the shuffle. My co-worker ended up shelling out ~$1000 out of pocket as they
needed to get work done and they had very real feelings of guilt. After all,
they did _eat_ near to the laptop.

I agree no laptop should get wet, or have a dollop of guacamole sauce splashed
across the keyboard, or have the display sprayed with a fine mist of Coca-Cola
as someone laughs and an unexpected joke. But these things happen and I don't
think Apple is helping anyone by making laptops that can't withstand these
common mishaps.

~~~
camelNotation
Not only are Thinkpad keyboards the most comfortable and satisfying on the
market, you can literally pour water on them and it will drain out the bottom
of the laptop without ever touching internal components.

After using my Thinkpad for about six months, I can't go back. The keyboard is
amazing, build quality is rock solid, screen is 4k with 100% RGB, and you can
actually upgrade the thing.

I buy a laptop because I need a mobile keyboard experience. Why on earth would
I buy a laptop with a keyboard that feels awful and can't handle normal use?

Honestly, if I absolute had to have OSX, I would just buy a Mac Mini and deal
with the stationary aspect of it. Macbooks are just that bad. If I desperately
needed portable Mac, I would probably even be willing to deal with iOS on the
iPad pro over a Macbook.

~~~
npongratz
I want to like Thinkpads for their hardware quality, but I cannot get over
Lenovo stuffing malware into their systems, even after they got caught. How
can I be put at ease?

~~~
oehpr
well, you can do what I do and wipe the OS. Though, that's a bit of a time
investment.

~~~
npongratz
That's obvious, and certainly the first thing I'd do upon receiving such a
device. But given how Lenovo got caught more than once pushing malware (after
promising they'd fix it), I worry the problem could be deeply engrained in
their product philosophy, and as such, I don't know that I'd even trust their
firmware.

But maybe people change, and maybe I'm just being paranoid and depriving
myself unnecessarily from hardware that I would like. (FWIW, I have used
Thinkpads and greatly liked their keyboards, enough that I do consider them
for every hardware refresh).

~~~
rhizome
The harddrive that came with my ThinkPad hasn't seen electricity since it left
the factory, I replaced it before I ever turned the laptop on.

~~~
chipperyman573
The hard drive isn't the only place malware can live (the BIOS would be one
example of another place).

~~~
rhizome
Well, you do what you can.

------
fumar
I just came back to a MacBook Pro 2018 after several years of experimenting
with Windows machines. Based on this thread I am outlier – I enjoy using the
trackpad, touch strip, and the keyboard seems fine.

In the past five years I have used the following; Thinkpad x230, Thinkpad X1
carbon, Thinkpad x370 yoga, Thinkpad X1 Yoga, Surface Pro 3,4,5, Surface
Laptop, Surface Book 1,2, and a hackintosh Thinkpad X230. I was a big fan of
the ThinkPads because their keyboards tend to have solid travel and they have
trackpoint. Having the ability to type and move the cursor without moving your
hands off home row is great. The Surface lineup has built in touch and pen
capabilities that does come in handy for note taking in meetings. As does the
Thinkpad Yoga line. For a year or so, I thought the ThinkPad Yoga line was a
good compromise. But, then I started to have problems with random reboots, PWM
screen, bluetooth issues, random CPU usage. I chalked that up to part Windows.
I bought a refurbished top-spec x230 and hackintoshed that. It was a good
middle ground for "user upgradable hardware" \+ MacOS. I kept that thing for
1.5 years and towards the end I used it as my primary device. That was the
start of me creeping back to MacOS. edit: Newer Thinkpad models made battery
replacement harder by removing the swappable second battery option. I carried
the x230 everywhere with an extra battery that was awesome, but I still didn't
get great battery life. I look back and find it funny that I carried up to two
batteries around for that thing and probably had less battery life than the
new MacBooks.

I prefer to have something that just works. I bought the MacBook 2018 upon
release and its been a workhorse with zero issues thus far. Day to day, I work
in adtech and dabble in python on the side. I can't say that for any of the
machines above. I even hook this up to en eGPU and play Dirt Rally on high
settings. I miss the TrackPoint and touch screen of some other models but I am
doing just fine. Instead, I use an iPad Pro with pencil. That is a far better
tablet for writing than the Surface line due to the superior app ecosystem on
iOS (see Paper, procreate, Pixelmator Photo, Affinity design and photo, etc).

~~~
dmitryminkovsky
Naa you’re not alone. I love the new MBP keyboard. My experience to suggests
what we have here is a vocal minority. I type faster with the new style
keyboard, I enjoy the springiness of the keys and their much larger size than
previous iterations. I also like how their backlighting works compared to the
old style. If people are having trouble with them, Apple should resolve those
issues, but in my opinion the keyboards and new MBPs are excellent machines.

~~~
geerlingguy
I love the feel, but in my 2016 I did have the spacebar stop working on one
side (the side I tend to use more often) because of dirt ingress.

My favorite keyboard ever, though, is the current 'Magic Keyboard'. It's like
the perfect medium between the old chicklet-style that felt rather mushy to me
and the new butterfly mechanism that's almost _too_ rigid.

Sadly, it seems Apple does not want to go back to that feel in their mobile
line :(

The grip I have with the newer Pros is the *@($ Touch Bar. It's sad that the
new Air has exactly what I wanted—addition of Touch ID but no Touch Bar—but
the so-called Pros still have the Touch Bar. I have yet to find a touch typist
who believes the Touch Bar to be a good reason to pay a few hundred extra for
it.

~~~
cnf
I absolutely love my touchbar, and would hate to see it go. I know per context
where each key I need is.

------
darrmit
It’s not just the keyboard, either. I’ve been buying Macs since they switched
to Intel in 2006 and the most recent MacBook Pros are the most problematic
I’ve ever had.

\- Bluetooth seems to be fundamentally flawed at a hardware level. AirPods,
Plantronics, doesn’t matter. It just randomly connects and disconnects as it
pleases.

\- USB-C dongles are a minefield of poor functionality

However, I’ve run Linux off and on since 2007 and Windows for 20+ years and I
still wouldn’t give up macOS as my daily driver. Even with the issues above it
still has an excellent display, I like the keyboard (waiting to start having
issues), and the battery life is the best I’ve ever had.

I’m glad to hear desktop Linux works for some people, but I just don’t have
time to a.) tune and configure it to work and have decent battery life with
whatever hardware I choose or b.) troubleshoot it when it randomly decides to
break itself on update.

~~~
seba_dos1
> but I just don’t have time to a.) tune and configure it to work and have
> decent battery life with whatever hardware I choose or b.) troubleshoot it
> when it randomly decides to break itself on update

From my experience, troubleshooting macOS when it randomly decides to break is
almost a Windows-like experience - lots of frustration and no sensible help on
the internet (unless your problem is so trivial it gets solved by something
like NVRAM reset, because this is the best advice you can count on online). I
absolutely prefer GNU/Linux where, if something breaks, it's not that hard to
get it back to sensible state.

~~~
toast0
From about 7 years of troubleshooting mac problems, it's actually worse than
Windows problems. First, you find people discussing the problem where everyone
claims it doesn't exist and no solutions are found. Then you find the problem
and solution for mac os from 2008, and that solution definitely doesn't work,
but might also break things worse. Then you decide, it's best to just make
sure your headphones aren't on when you start itunes in 2014, because there is
a 10% chance of really loud static instead of music (mysteriously fixed in the
next major release)

~~~
corndoge
It really is kind of amusing how forum threads with Mac owners asking for help
usually have at least a few people that instead of responding to the question
take the opportunity to relate how their Mac has been working perfectly for
them and never had that problem. I like my Mac and my Windows and my Linux
boxen, I'm not a Mac hater, but I only see this on Mac related forums.

~~~
dahauns
And don't forget one of the most infuriating aspects of Apple community
troubleshooting: The group of people questioning the premise of your problem
and saying you shouldn't even want to do what you want to do.

Even worse than answers.microsoft.com. Ok, almost. (Let's not be too harsh
here.)

~~~
lenocinor
I have gotten the same when posting to many technical communities. Sometimes
it's a good thing (I've actually agreed in some cases) and sometimes it's
awful.

I agree that it's infuriating when it's something reasonable that you're
trying to do, but I've experienced this in many tech forums, and programmers
have been some of the worst offenders in this category for me in the past,
actually.

------
coldtea
15+ years as an Apple user, this is my biggest pet peeve.

The other two being:

\- the touch strip, which I find mostly annoying. I'd prefer physical buttons
with the ability to show different labels (a la Optimus keyboard).

\- whichever idiot thought putting the power plug at the bottom of the Magic
Mouse was a good idea.

~~~
alehul
> whichever idiot thought putting the power plug at the bottom of the Magic
> Mouse was a good idea.

For those not familiar with the Apple Mouse, the commenter means that the
power plug is on the part that you’re supposed to have on the mousepad,
meaning you can’t charge it while using it, at all.

Easily the worst way to design a mouse, ever. I don’t understand how it was
approved.

~~~
dwaite
> Easily the worst way to design a mouse, ever. I don’t understand how it was
> approved.

I do. It was on purpose. They do not want people using the wireless mouse as a
wired mouse with a short, thick cord not designed for it. Which is totally
what my parents would do.

~~~
powvans
That's easily solved by disabling the mouse when it's connected to the cable.
If what you're asserting is true, at by disabling it they could have avoided
this endless mocking.

~~~
saagarjha
> disabling the mouse when it's connected to the cable

Like this wouldn't invite even more outrage?

------
paxys
> “So, just curious, why did you buy another one?” she asked, referring to the
> 2018 MacBook Air I’d gotten six months after selling the Pro.

I was hoping she talked more about this part, but brushing it aside by
bringing up "Apple ecosystem" is pretty unsatisfactory. It does tell you,
though, that Apple has its target demographic by the balls, and broken
keyboards are certainly not chasing them away.

Macbooks will get fixed the day tech journalists start writing articles about
how they tried a Windows laptop and liked it.

~~~
Nextgrid
> they tried a Windows laptop and liked it

This requires Windows to become likeable.

I (and plenty of other people) will like Windows once it:

* has a consistent UI instead of 3 control panels with icons and UI paradigms ranging from Windows 95 to Windows 10.

* ships with _quality_ applications that don't try to eat the entire screen to display 2 lines of text (pretty much all "modern" built-in apps are a disaster in that regard)

* has an App Store with decent, curated apps. Now I'm not sure if stores are the future on desktops, but Apple at least seems to be able to keep the crap at bay and actually have some decent productivity apps in it. Windows Store? Oh yeah, knockoff Flash Players and similar scams, and near zero apps you'd actually want to pay for.

* doesn't come with ads nor invasive telemetry that sometimes re-enables itself after updates (don't mention the Enterprise edition which you can only get in volume, so no solution for freelancers & small businesses)

* doesn't force a stupid phone-style _lockscreen_ on non-touchscreen machines (I'm sure you can disable it with a Group Policy or registry tweak - my point being, I shouldn't have to spend hours doing that - macOS comes with reasonably sane defaults in comparison)

* has a start-menu search that actually works and doesn't surface irrelevant crap from their failed attempt at a search engine.

* has a calculator that doesn't take 10 seconds to load and then asks me to "rate" it (seriously? can't believe I'm saying this)

* proper QA - since Windows 10 the quality has gone down the drain and it feels more like a half-assed Linux distribution except that it has ads and you _still_ pay for it

MacBooks definitely have their flaws, but overall it's still worth it and I
write off their price to the cost of doing business (even if I had to buy a
new MacBook every few months it would still be worth it for me). Microsoft
(and their OEMs) can have my business once they put out a decent OS that
actually feels polished and works _for me_ , not against me. They managed to
do it with Windows 7, not reason they couldn't do it again.

~~~
peteradio
Windows sucks but how bout Dell XPS with Ubuntu?

~~~
rayiner
Coil whine. Seriously it’s like it’s trying to get me to kill myself.

~~~
m_mueller
I went for a Yoga 730 2-in-1. Superior to Macbook Air in every aspect other
than having to deal with Windows - but with MacOS quality dropping and Windows
improving on the WSL front the tradeoff is now worth it to me.

------
muraiki
I had slowly been moving into the Apple ecosystem, buying an iPad, iPhone, and
even a HomePod and Apple Music. I was largely motivated by a respect for
Apple's stance on privacy. Then it came time for me to buy a laptop and I
encountered these numerous reports of Apple screwing up one of the most basic
parts of the computer. I couldn't justify spending so much on a laptop plus
AppleCare, which would only result in getting another keyboard that suffers
from the same problem.

I realized that this is what Apple lock-in means, and now I'm leaving their
ecosystem. Whereas before I would tell friends and family to just get Apple
products, now I'll them to buy a Chromebook or Windows laptop. Maybe this is
why I keep seeing the newly released Macbook Air on sale for $200 off...

~~~
usaphp
> I couldn't justify spending so much on a laptop

Apple MacBooks lately are being priced on par with the competition. You want
premium screen and trackpad - you will have to pay just as much for a windows
laptop.

~~~
gilbetron
Just bought a Dell Precision, and out of curiosity, went through and specced
one out to match an equivalent Macbook. The macbook was solidly 30%+ higher in
price. They were pretty close about 3-4 years ago, but now they have gotten
terrible. And that doesn't even consider the Dell has a better keyboard (and
for me, a better trackpad).

I used Macs for almost a decade, but I'm crazy happy with my Dell running
Ubuntu 18.04. Amazing!

------
Rudi9719
I don't understand the failure of the butterfly keyboard? I haven't had any
issues with my 2017 macBook and it seems to keep kruft from getting under my
keys (A problem I had with the older macbook keyboards)

I also live on my macbook so it's constantly in use, and much to my
displeasure, around food.

~~~
ascii_only
Nearly _half_ of the third-gen Apple butterfly keyboards at Basecamp have
failed. There are few other personal reports with similar percentages.

Second problem is that it will cost a lot of money to fix your keyboard out of
warranty.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
That's an amazingly high percentage, and suggests staggering incompetence at
Apple HQ. A company with that kind of market cap should not be in this
situation.

------
thelittleone
So far I have spent over $5k ferrying my 2017 Macbook Pro (15" with touchbar)
to and from Apple. Is this a super isolated hardware situation or have others
experienced similar?

\- March 2018 I start my laptop in the morning to find the screen doesn't go
on. I take it to the service center in Bali where they inform me it will take
6+ weeks to service. I can't do 6 weeks without my primary work device. I fly
to Sydney and visit the genius bar. They replace the screen and the logic
board (losing all the data) ($750 flight + other expenses).

I fly back to Bali (battery's ~ 80%) open up the laptop and find that the
screen is dead again. After a week of conversations with Apple they agree to
give me a new MBP but I have to fly to Sydney to get it ($750 flight + other
expenses).

\- March 2019 screen stops working. I fly to Kuala Lumpur where the authorised
service center says 3 weeks to fix. That won't work, so I fly on to the new
apple store in Bangkok. They replace the screen and logic board (losing all
data) ($1.5k)

\- April 2019 (5 weeks later) the screen gets pink lines. I fly back to
Bangkok, they replace the screen (another $1.5k on travel) and offer me $980
off a new MBP + free 3 year applecare.

So far 12 international flight sectors, over $5k in expenses (hotels / flights
etc) and 6 weeks with no device.

To stay on Apple I'm having to seriously consider a second standby laptop. Or
make the switch to Windows as Dell has fast domestic warranty repair.

------
Dylan16807
“seven elements that every keyboard needs to create a great typing
experience.” I have a hard time imagining what those seven elements are,
because I get stuck at two: 1. Produces the characters 2. That I intended to
type. These two attributes are also, incidentally, what the biggest and most-
valuable tech companies in the world are somehow grappling with anew.

Oh come on. Having a keyboard that causes as little fatigue and soreness as
possible over time is an unsolved and complicated problem. There's also noise
to consider. And laptops don't have infinite room. These factors come after
"does it make the characters?" but they are not unimportant.

~~~
mwfunk
She was being sarcastic. She wasn't saying that nothing else matters, she was
saying that nothing else matters if it fails at being a functional keyboard.

~~~
Dylan16807
But Apple is the only one grappling with that. It's not what Microsoft's
presentation is going to be about.

~~~
mwfunk
Yes, exactly. That's the sarcasm.

------
stunt
X1 Carbon and XPS 13 are still the best hardware out there if you are using
Linux.

~~~
LeonM
X1 Extreme is a better choice imo, up to 64G (replaceable), 2 m.2 slots, a
GTX1050 for casual gaming or ML and a 4K display. I have one on order.

There is also the P1, which comes with a Xeon (!) option and Quadro P1000
graphics. The market for the P1 is pretty specific, but if you need those
nVidia certified drivers, this is the one.

Edit: obviously you wouldn't run Linux on the P1 if you bought it for the
certified drivers. It would still work though.

~~~
steve19
I'm in the market to replace my macbook. Does the X1 Extreme support usb-c
charging (charging the laptop with usb-c)?

~~~
KayEss
Yes it does.

~~~
polymeris
What are the charger requirements? Mine doesn't charge with the 60W provided
by my monitor.

~~~
KayEss
Not too surprising I think. The charger is 135W

[https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/Thi...](https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/ThinkPad-X1-Extreme/p/22TP2TXX1E1)

------
flowersjeff
The fact that there's well over 250+ comments and growing here alone, shows
just what a sh*tshow this keyboard is. I was in the market for a new laptop,
but the feel of these just turned me off. So I got a 'new' used laptop off of
craigslist.

Coupled to this, I've had a number of friends (three so far) with issues. One
had Apple not only replace their keyboard but looking over the bill of work -
replaced the MB and some other components. All because their "e" key didn't
work?... They were covered, so no costs - except not having their work
computer for the couple of days.

The fact (for me ;-) ) that chromebooks have better feelings keyboards ought
to be a wake up call.

It really seems like there's no one in charge of late, and perhaps a single
a-hole demanding stuff work/clean design/simple is more needed than ever
before.

------
makecheck
Apple seems to focus more on the “can cost a lot” definition of “Pro”, and not
the “get important work done” definition of “Pro”. The only correct course
when offered a more-expensive and clearly-regressing machine is to not buy it
(though I suspect Apple might actually have come out making _more_ money this
time around).

They need to also realize that if anyone is likely to accept reasonable
_trade-offs_ (like thickness) in favor of a better _work_ machine, it’s
“pros”! It is insane to _regress_ at this price/feature level.

~~~
hollander
Apple has lost sight of it's original motto to be independent, creative and do
the things that other people didn't dare to do or simply never thought of.
This created a cult, often despised, but mostly admired, and being part of
that cult was more important than having the best technical value for the
money.

Now their purpose seems to maximize on making money off the brand value. That
won't last. There is no vision anymore. Well, the "vision" is thinner,
thinner, thinner, and all the while make it twice as expensive. I suppose
there is a real market for this, many people may want it, but I think there
are many users who don't care about 1cm thicker laptops, or having the fasted
custom made ssd-connector. They prefer lower price and swappable disks and
batteries. Oh and working keyboards. I'm glad with my 2015 macbook with good
keyboard, but I don't know what I would do if this thing crashed tomorrow...

------
benologist
Not admitting your mistake this much is simply lying. They have a severe
honesty problem admitting their hardware faults. How is this legal? Imagine if
car companies, instead of recalling their broken shit, just lied and quietly
tried to fix it on next year's model...

When the free keyboard replacement program shuts down, and Apple still denies
the problem, and Apple happily charges you $795 every so often to fix their
mistake over the life of the machine, will it be fraud?

~~~
linuxftw
Many poorly designed car parts fail prematurely just outside of warranty. If
there's no safety concern, there's no recall.

------
mroche
The butterfly keyboards drive me crazy. They sound like a constant drove of
woodpeckers going to town on a keyboard, and to me they just don’t feel right
when traversing.

I own the full size wired aluminum keyboard and it’s honestly my favorite
thing. It’s used on my Linux systems and Windows ones. Not a huge fan of
mechanical keyboards and this one is thin, fast to traverse, and quiet to use.
I was devastated when they ended support for it as they unveiled the iMac Pro.

------
davidandgoliath
I abandoned apple in Dec. of '17 after 5+ years in the ecosystem & went on a
hefty soul search for what to use next. I knew the touchbar was sort of a
warning flare that they were trending away from what I'd need out of
computing.

After frustrations with windows / linux (laptop, dell xps 13), I ended up
shelling out a bunch of money to get a macbook pro '16 with just the two
ports: No touchbar. Had to have the top replaced within 6 months due to
keyboard. The two ports heated up and pushing heavy throughput via wireless
would make bluetooth go apeshit. Sold it immediately afterwards, endured a few
more frustrating months with linux. Got a '17 pro, surely they had fixed
things. Keys started sticking. Replacement, sold it. Now on a '19 macbook air,
because surely they've fixed it, yes?

Keys are sticking after less than ~10 uses.

My desktop has been linux powered since that soul search started, without
issue. The trackpad on my lenovo x5c is working wonderfully under ubuntu after
I realized I had been importing broken configs from my 10+ year old backups:
Exclude your dotfiles.

I only miss two things from the entire ecosystem: ulysses (the text editor) &
little snitch. Everything else about linux is far superior.

~~~
gnicholas
> _Now on a '19 macbook air, because surely they've fixed it, yes?_

Is there a 2019 MBA? I thought it was most recently updated in 2018. It
certainly feels better than the older models, and even a smidge better than
the 2018 MBP, which was updated earlier in the year. But there are still
reports of issues with the 2018 MBA, including in the WSJ writeup IIRC.

~~~
davidandgoliath
Keen point: It's likely the '18\. Bought early '19\. Regardless, keys already
becoming non-functional on the left-hand side of it after very little use.

------
ajma
hmm... am I alone in being someone who likes the butterfly keyboard?

~~~
thought_alarm
The arrow keys are one of the most essential parts of a keyboard for people
who write a lot of code or otherwise do a lot of copyediting.

This type of user needs to be able to lock on to the arrow keys repeatedly and
unconsciously without fail throughout the work day.

Apple's keyboard designers understood this and got it right for over 15 years.
But that changed in 2016.

As of 2016, Apple's new keyboards provide zero affordances for these kinds of
users and are completely unsuitable for real work.

You couldn't pay me enough to use one of these keyboard for writing code, and
I certainly wouldn't pay my own money for one.

~~~
fredsir
> The arrow keys are one of the most essential parts of a keyboard for people
> who write a lot of code

Ahem... I think you meant "hjkl".

Just joking ;)

~~~
AndrewDavis
How's that escape key going? :p

------
logjammin
Jumped ship from Apple a couple of years ago and haven't looked back. Thinkpad
laptop and homemade PC with mechanical keyboard: they're fast, easy to type
on, and I'm lucky enough to be sufficiently savvy to fix most issues on my
own.

OSX is still the superior OS - by orders of magnitude, in my mind - but Apple
has simply stopped trying. Prices up, quality down. The only exception remains
the good ol' iMac - possibly their greatest non-phone achievement. But the
design hasn't changed in a billion years, you can't really upgrade it, and
there's no decent GPU solution.

Windows-land ain't wonderful, but I'm priced out of Appleworld and I've lost
my patience with it. Until something better comes along OS-wise, I'm happy
where I am. (I use Linux occasionally too and enjoy it.) With respect to
typing, though, man oh man: Thinkpad keyboards? Cherry MX switches? I know
which rock I'm dying on.

------
thegayngler
I guess Im just an outlier as I love the butterfly keyboard. It is certainly
my favorite thing about the new macs. I still have my 2016 Mac and it is in
prime condition. I am a light touch typer. Therefore I dislike having to mash
my fingers down into the keys to register the click.

~~~
lenocinor
I like it too (2019 version). I hated it the first three weeks, but now it's
great and I prefer it to my old 2012 MacBook Pro keyboard. Maybe I'll hate it
again in six months or a year if it dies like many other people's have, but
for now it's great, at least.

------
gotrythis
After using Windows since the beginning, I switched to Mac and leased a top-
of-the-line MacBook and iPad, lured in by their great build quality and Mac-
only software.

Neither reliably works for input!

The Mac has the keyboard issue, and the iPad has the less well known issue
with randomly not being able to recognize fingers. Neither is fixable.

When the lease is up this fall, I will own them. The Mac will become a desktop
testing machine, as it's useless as a laptop. The iPad works with pen, so I'll
still use it for some purposes. But I wish I could sell them!

I can't though, because unlike Apple, I could not ethically sell these to some
other sucker. Such a waste of money. I've lost all respect for Apple and will
avoid them at all costs from now on.

Getting the next MS Surface Book for my next laptop.

~~~
rocky1138
If you're concerned about ethics when you go to sell, you can confirm with the
buyer that they have owned one previously and know what they are getting into.
That way, you're in the clear.

------
deminature
To play devil's advocate, I've fully adjusted to the butterfly keyboard design
and find the travel of the older keys excessive and unnecessary work for my
fingers. All my colleagues type 8hr+ a day on the butterfly keyboard without
complaints.

While I have experienced the annoyance of debris getting caught underneath
keys, it seems like a problem of refinement of the design rather than tossing
it out entirely, as many seem to be advocating.

I'm not sure articles like these are indicative of general sentiment towards
the design. People enjoying the keyboard have no reason to comment about it,
because having an opinion that you enjoy the status quo isn't interesting or
worth sharing.

~~~
makecheck
They can’t just “refine” it if their 3rd iteration still has problems and it’s
been _years_. They would have been better off reverting.

And honestly, I’m not sure I will trust them if they get up on stage again
with another “all new” design. I want them to basically say “we went back to
_exactly_ the same design as our 2013 laptops”.

~~~
stevewodil
The next generation keyboard (I'm guessing) will be a sealed set of raised
keys that uses the taptic engine to simulate a keypress, similar to how the
touchpads on MacBooks work now. This will be a good change because not only
will it fix the issues of dust and crumbs and outright key failure, but it
could also provide some protection against small spills onto the keyboard.

I just purchased a 2018 MacBook Pro and I actually kind of enjoy using the
keyboard, but I'm worried about keyboard failures in the future, and on a
$2500 laptop I shouldn't have to worry about that. I'm considering returning
it and waiting for a 2019 model with a redesigned keyboard, but I haven't
completely decided yet...and it's possible that Apple will just refresh the
2019 MacBooks with new processors, and not address the keyboard issues this
year.

------
codegoblins
I updated my work laptop last year to the 2017 model and I immediately
determined that I would wait for a better keyboard design before updating my
personal laptop. Preferably one without the touchbar, or at the very least
with a physical escape key.

------
kkarakk
i am absolutely laughing at this macbook pro 2017 i bought. the keyboard has
been replaced 3 times now...the screen was replaced for stagelight
effect(broken connector)...they replaced the whole top bit for that(everything
north of the hinge gets replaced)

i finally pawned it off on someone else and they promptly fried the
motherboard due to water damage(the air intake ports lead directly to the
motherboard so good luck to any starbucks warriors out there) so that got
replaced too.

Ship of theseus in action - a macbook story. only the bottom baseplate is from
the original macbook at this point.

~~~
sundvor
Woa. For the X1 Carbon, Lenovo actually designed ducts to channel accidental
water ingress away from the important parts.

It's kind of sad that Apple gets away with just focusing on the glitzy
externals - and that their plethora customers don't care.

~~~
jinushaun
They do care, but Apple has a monopoly on making MacOS hardware and people are
unable to “vote with their wallet”. Same thing with iPhones and the headphone
jack.

~~~
swah
Though on that front I feel like they did the Appleish thing: had an excuse to
remove the jack (waterproofing), moved the industry in the direction they
wanted, released a product that everyone loves (AirPods).

~~~
sundvor
That excuse doesn't really hold water though. The S10 still has it, and is
arguably every bit as "killer" as the new iPhones.

It's more like cost cutting / engineering laziness dressed up as being
progressive.

------
FabHK
I got the MacBook Pro end of 2016, when it came out (reluctantly, as it was so
much more expensive than the MBA it replaced). Since then, every part of it
has been replaced (under Apple Care) except the bottom plate. The cables
(USB-C power cable, USB-C to lightning) are totally broken and frazzled out,
unusable, too (no replacement under Apple Care, but hey, what's $55 among
friends?).

However, I must admit, I did use the machine and also even moved it regularly.
It doesn't seem designed for that.

------
zamalek
I joined HN during the Ballmer/Jobs era. Back then the community seemed
predominantly Apple and [rightfully so] very weary of Microsoft. Getting to
that point took Apple a huge amount of work; I still remember the days when
Apple purely existed for Adobe and DAWs. Apple had to climb a mountain of
consumer apathy in order to displace Microsoft. The hardware specs have never
been great (which is why I personally never made the switch), but Apple was
good enough for nearly everything and I could never argue against Apple build
quality.

The tables seem to have switched. Microsoft is putting out some unbelievably
good hardware, my MSFT friends have surfaces and I drool over them (without
worrying about breaking the keyboard :) ). My Dell isn't that bad, certainly
superior to anything Apple has on offer (the touchpad sucks as always, but I
have a bluetooth trackball). Windows is now a great OS. _Microsoft_ is now
facing the very same mountain of consumer apathy that Apple faced.

It does seem to be changing. There was an Ask HN thread yesterday asking about
setups, and the amount of "Install Windows 10" or "Install Linux" I saw _on
HN_ was utterly bizarre.

------
jvatic
My main complaint with their new keyboard design, not having used it enough to
encounter any reliability issues, is that it’s just way too cramped to
actually type on. I’ve since gone back to an older MBP, but while I was using
the newer design I found the only way I could actually type on it was using an
external keyboard. There really wasn’t anything wrong with the 2012/2015 form
factor and I wish they’d go back to that.

~~~
hliyan
I too had to go back to an older MBP, but not because the keyboard was
cramped. My complaints:

1\. Not enough tactile feedback from keys. I have to carefully calibrate the
amount of muscle power I use to hit the keys, which paradoxically increases
the pain in the joints of my fingers.

2\. Lack of a physical ESC key. I touch type, and this makes writing code
rather difficult.

3\. Lack of USB port. Lack of HDMI port. Lack of magnetic charging port (which
is very convenient)

4\. Oversized touchpad. Increases accidental touches.

My old MBP is now in its third year, and I'm really hoping a newer, more
usable version will come out before it dies.

~~~
cobbzilla
Re 2, I remapped the tilde key to escape because it was driving me nuts. I do
still want to type a tilde char sometimes, so that is now Alt-tilde. Thank
goodness for Karabiner.

------
bnolsen
Lack of competition in the Apple ecosystem, plain and simple. I think people
know this before making the jump. Or they work for a company that forces them
into choosing between a windows or osx laptop. I'm in this crowd and I have no
love for either. I despise apple hardware but hate windows itself far more.

Most people are best served with a good chromebook. That crowd won't be the
ones frequenting this type website.

~~~
RandomBacon
You're spot on, I'm sorry that you're being downvoted.

Apple Inc has a monopoly on regular users' hardware for their iOS/OS.

Windows, Linux, Android, Windows Phone OS (when that was a thing), did not.
Companies were able to try and provide the best hardware in order to win
customers.

Apple doesn't have provide the best hardware, regular users only have one
hardware provider to choose from if they want Apple's iOS/OS.

(The average regular user is not going to make a Hackintosh.)

------
matchagaucho
The warranty on my MacBook expired, but Apple replaced the keyboard under
their "Quality" coverage program.

So, to some extent I felt they _" admitted"_ the mistake. But when the new
keyboard fails, and the repair costs fall on me, I'll be looking for an
alternative.

For comparison, my 2012 MacBook Air keyboard still rocks.

------
wolfspider
May be the only one that thinks this but changing up the keyboard so much on
all devices has ruined me on all of them. The old MBP feels weird now I’m used
to the new one and old PC keyboards feel weird too, the ChromeBook keyboard
feels weird, etc..Hmm how about velvet that smells like lavender wouldn’t that
be nice?

------
aosaigh
Everyone speaks about being ‘locked in’ to the apple ecosystem. I’m happy to
be in the ecosystem and I’m happy to pay more for my devices. The alternatives
are simply interior (having used all platforms myself). In particular when you
are trying to work across multiple devices from different ecosystems.

------
bluedino
I wonder if the resellers have been facing any backlash from this.

Best Buy has taken $400 off both the base 13" model (earlier this week) and
the base 13" touchbar model (right now).

Clearing out inventory for incoming new models? Or just discounting them so
they'll actually sell?

------
remote_phone
Apple deserves a multi-billion dollar class action lawsuit over these
keyboards. I don’t know why some ambulance chaser hasn’t taken this up As a
cause yet, this would be the first class actions lawsuit I would support.

------
KhoomeiK
What? The butterfly keyboard is great. I went from about 96 WPM on traditional
mechanical keyboards to over 110 on the butterfly. It feels great and the
short travel time combined with clickiness really works nicely.

------
geophile
My rant about the state of Apple: [https://github.com/geophile/reality-
distortion-field](https://github.com/geophile/reality-distortion-field)

------
meche123
This is the corporate disease. If everybody is following the procedures, then
there is only one way - forward. Nobody can take a step back to analyse the
current state, or admit that the company made mistake. Life goes on, the
managers are taking their big bonuses, the engineers will continue to make
useless inventions, and probably in few iterations a new keyboard will be
announced, without admitting anything wrong with the current product.

------
lcnmrn
Actually it's the best keyboard I ever type on. I just loved. I have a 13-inch
MacBook Pro Touch Bar at work. It's fast and reliable with every key press.

~~~
headsupftw
I second this. You may hate the butterfly keyboard but I love it. So claiming
the design has clearly failed is a little bit of a stretch.

~~~
ravitation
I completely agree, scrolled through a lot to get to some positive comments.
Love the keyboard, especially considering how thin my 13" MBP is (I have a
"huge" Windows laptop also, since I work in CAD development, and its keyboard
is _pretty good_ too). I do _generally_ dislike the touch bar though (it does
have its moments).

One thing I find interesting, is that the first couple dozen of negative
comments are from people saying "I left Apple products behind X years/months
ago"... Not necessarily people that use Apple products, or this keyboard,
daily.

------
knownastron
My Masters program of about 30 people were all given 2018 MacBook Pros in
August 2018. We've all been using it as our primary laptop since then and
there has one keyboard problem that Apple did end up fixing.

I've also spilled maybe half a cup of water directly the keyboard of my 2017
MacBook Pro and it still works just fine to this day (I've since given the
laptop to my dad).

Just hoping to add some more data to the conversation.

------
intrasight
Put your laptop in its "dock", and use a cheap, indestructible keyboard
that'll be far superior to the laptop's keyboard.

------
babyslothzoo
I too experience keyboard problems on the new MacBook Air keyboard design.
Spontaneously unresponsive keys, and a spacebar that inserts two spaces
regularly. In any endeavor that requires precision syntax to be entered in a
reliable manner, that is an obvious problem.

On a positive note, the new MacBook Air has an Escape key, function row, and
does not include a Touch Bar.

------
milhous
Tim Cook needs to do the right thing and hold a VP accountable for this, as
well as for the thermal throttling and T2 bugs, flex cable failure, iPad
chassis deformation, AirPower vaporware, etc. Phil Schiller? Dan Riccio? John
Ternus? Sounds like Apple needs Bob Mansfield to run the hardware division
again.

------
smrtinsert
I'm no fan of macs despite the fact I have to use one for work and I own a
mini personally, but come on - you literally don't have to eat over a
computer. How does that even work? You take a bite and chew while typing? Take
5 minutes and finish your meal somewhere else.

------
ravenstine
Okay, they haven't admitted their mistaken design to the public. So what? That
says nothing about what design changes they might make in the future.

There are definitely things to point out about Apple's current generation of
MacBooks, but I really don't get the vitriol people currently have for them.

Sure, I liked the MagSafe charging port, but USB-3 has so far been better than
I expected. I only need one kind of cable for most things now, and can charge
my phone and my MacBook off the same charger.

The touchbar is kind of bullshit to me, though. It hasn't provided any benefit
and is really just a nuisance when I somehow inadvertently touch virtual keys
when reaching for the delete key. Other times, it shuts off after non-use
during things like Google Hangouts, in which case what's the point of the
virtual keys if I can't see them all the time? Yet the touchbar doesn't offend
me enough that I wouldn't buy another MacBook in the future.

These are still good computers. I used to be a Windows and Linux guy, but all
the non-Apple laptops I owned had significant flaws that usually didn't reveal
themselves at first. My experience with 2014+ MacBooks has been excellent in
contrast, with updates always being very smooth, no hardware failures besides
soy sauce jamming up my spacebar, and a consistent experience overall.

I get people's criticisms, but I also think people need to chill out a bit,
and that some of the vitriol is being manufactured by journalists(for better
or worse, it's popular right now to attack Big Tech).

If you don't like the butterfly keys, you can still buy a 2015 MacBook brand
new or refurbished and it's really just as good for most purposes. My main
laptop is a mid-2014 MacBook Pro and it's still working great with Mojave.

------
mnm1
Apple makes shit hardware now and has for a few years. The Apple of old is
gone. People need to accept that. The keyboard is shit. The trackpad is too
big. And the screen has issues too. Desktop/laptop software, other than OS X,
has always been shit. OS X is slowly turning into iOS which is a locked down
piece of garbage. This is reality and no amount of fanboyism is going to
change that. The alternative is Windows which is an adware riddled spy machine
or Linux for which every year is the year of the desktop but not quite. I
suppose a Hackintosh could work for some people too who want the OS X
experience but don't want to deal with shit hardware. There's plenty of choice
in the Windows world for people that don't mind spyware and adware. And Linux
is pretty much the same year in, year out. Those are the choices for serious
computing. We need to get used to them. I know what I'm going with next
upgrade.

------
karmakaze
Apple's mistake is not putting the membrane _over_ the keys instead of under
it. With the engineering that's already gone into the keyboard, just go the
rest of the way and make a membrane keyboard that has good tactile response.

------
DatXN
One side questions, what do you guys think about Apple Magic Keyboard 2 typing
experience compare to MacBook Pro 2014-2015 series (or ThinkPad T, X series).
I’m thinking of buying one as a backup for my 2017 MBP Touchbar Keyboard.

------
schappim
There is a petition to get Apple to recall the keyboards. Previous discussion
here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16997476](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16997476)

------
dysoco
Yet she went on and bought another Macbook, and this is not the only case I've
heard of about "Macbooks have gone crap but what else am I supposed to do
about it?"

Well, the problem is that you've bought into the ecosystem __so hard __now it
's impossible to you to get out, I agree, maybe you don't feel like Windows or
Linux are going to solve your problems (although I don't think this to be
true) , but the problem is if you keep buying Apple products the company will
retain the monopoly.

If you want Apple to either improve their hardware or open up their software
to other manufacturers then I feel like the only way is to stop buying their
products.

And it's not only about hardware/software quality, it's also about their
despicable relationship with customers.

------
Simulacra
After 13 years of Apple I’m on my last iPhone, and MacBook. The company has
gone backwards, with phones and with computers, and I regret the day I have to
slide back to the PC.

------
boulos
Amusingly, the bad keyboard plus touchbar has made me finally use my Capslock
as Escape instead of Control, making me more balanced between emacs and vi.
Thanks, I guess?

------
slezyr
Damn, there are problems in all hiend laptop in these comments. I guess I'll
stick to xiaomi, at least I can buy two for price of XPS/X1/Mac.

------
Causality1
I take it with these amazing apple keyboards you can't just pop the keycaps
off with a screwdriver to clean under them and pop them back on?

~~~
bluedino
You can very, very carefully remove them with a credit card.

However, they are VERY easy to damage. And even if you get the key off without
breaking it, the problem is the butterfly mechanism is very fragilse and goes
'flat', it's not so much getting dust specks in there.

------
neop1x
There are nice USB external keyboards available, you know. With a proper set
of dongles, you can set yourself a proper typewriter. :P

------
kaikai
The larger trackpad, the touchbar, and the crappy keyboard might all be easing
us towards fully touchscreen computers.

The larger trackpad gives us more touchable real estate, getting us used to
making gestures to control screen behavior.

The touchbar is similar- getting us used to changing collections of touchable
buttons rather than the static keys available on a keyboard.

Maybe a crappy keyboard is part of that plan, providing a worse user
experience to make the transition away from keyboards completely an easier
pill to swallow.

------
NoblePublius
Writing this from a two month old MacBook Air with broken H key (at my desk
with external keyboard!)

------
tinus_hn
Except Apple issued an apology over a month ago:

[https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/macbook-keyboard-apple-
apolo...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/macbook-keyboard-apple-apologizes-
for-broken-laptop-keyboards.html)

Just another clickbait title.

------
leecarraher
i like the razor edge they put on the bottom of the computer, such that after
using it for a while, people feel compelled to ask me about my day and offer
kind affirmations.

------
marter
This again?

------
luckyorlame
blah blah blah

------
sonnyblarney
I think the butterfly keys are great, when I got used to them going back to
anything else felt like a step back.

Reliability issues are a problem, but that's all within reason I think. If
they repair for free.

The issue with Mac is they are too expensive and a lot of the regular, non-
iPhone stuff is languishing.

~~~
robertAngst
>Reliability issues are a problem, but that's all within reason I think.

No, when your product doesnt work, that is unacceptable.

~~~
sonnyblarney
This the real world: every physical product has tolerances and exhibits
problems, and most that are expensive require maintenance. Moreover, new
features are going to be problematic.

Consider your statement as it would apply to cars for example: they are in
constant need of repair, tweaking, maintenance.

Butterfly keyboards have never been a problem for me, the issue is really the
rate of problems, how they are fixed, who pays for it.

~~~
robertAngst
Design it so it doesnt break despite tolerances?

This is engineering, having something fail is not acceptable.

~~~
sonnyblarney
"This is engineering, having something fail is not acceptable."

No. Engineering is not about 'zero failure' at all. It's about characterizing
the failure properly.

Have you ever had the pleasure of working on a physical, manufactured product?
There is no such thing as a perfect run. There are always defects, there are
always failures for any product at scale.

100% of Apple products have a measurable failure rate.

The only Eng. problem where we shoot for 0 failures are a) Space Systems and
b) Nuclear tech. Maybe some other things.

But even in Space and Nuclear ... there's still a tolerance!

We launch people into space with some kind of estimate as to the likelihood
they will all die.

~~~
robertAngst
Failure-

Not meeting specifications.

These did not meet specs. At least customer expectations.

------
PaulHoule
That gas in the "canned air" cans has a staggeringly high global warming
potential. Apple ought to sell a version which is environmentally safe.

------
musicale
The butterfly keyboard is a disaster, but the trackpad with its completely
broken palm rejection is much worse.

It's amazing how a feature (palm rejection) that worked fine on previous Apple
laptops doesn't work on current models.

------
ryanmarsh
Literally my favorite thing about the MacBook Pro is the keyboard. I do not
understand the beef with it (aside from stuck keys which can happen to
others).

------
wyclif
P.T. Barnum (possibly) said it best: "There's a sucker born every minute."
There are a lot of suckers out there with MacBooks.

~~~
rarrrrr
After watching Louis Rossmann's live repairs and informed bitching, I bought
an almost maxed-out Lenovo T480 on the President's Day sale and hackintoshed
it. Water-resistant, backlit keyboard that's awesome and isn't crazy
loud/fragile. 16 GiB, WQHD (could be brighter), Samsung 1 TiB 970 Pro and
giant extended battery. 9 hour run-time. MIL-spec rated.

EDIT: I had a pre-Retina A1278 mid-2012 MBP with 16 GiB and 2 SSD's for a long
time. MagSafe 1, okay keyboard, generally bulletproof for a while until the
external ports and logic board traces started corroding from humidity and
temperature extremes. :( I bought a broken screen MBP for $170 USD to get a
working logic board cheap to recover and migrate off. Donated to a sane-but-
poor itinerant writer/journalist/commercial fisherman.

~~~
0_gravitas
LR has absolutely guaranteed that I will never willingly purchase an apple
product in my life.

~~~
dep_b
Which kind of makes you think what he thinks of what his business really is in
the long term. Repairing Macs that nobody buys anymore probably not.

~~~
0_gravitas
I doubt hes under the delusion that people will stop buying apple anytime
soon, and even if they did, it shouldn't be too hard for him to pivot to doing
more general repairs.

------
droptablemain
I tried, but I don't really feel much sympathy for someone who buys a product
with a 40% premium that's effectively a status symbol masquerading as a piece
of hardware.

To be honest, I'm quite giggly over this whole ordeal.

~~~
danieldk
_I tried, but I don 't really feel much sympathy for someone who buys a
product with a 40% premium that's effectively a status symbol masquerading as
a piece of hardware._

Oh come on, this is getting really old. A lot of people (most Mac users that I
know) pay the 40% premium because they want macOS and the Mac application
ecosystem. Sure, there are people that will buy it as a status symbol, but
that's a crude over-generalization.

Also, a Surface with about the same specs sells at about the same price at our
local retailer. The Surface Laptop 2 with a Core i5, 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD is
1449 Euro, the MacBook Air 1409. There are some differences like a touch
screen (Surface), Touch ID (MacBook), higher PPI (MacBook). But for all
practical purposes, they are in the same class and have the same price. A
similarly spec'ed Dell XPS goes for 1399 Euro without a HiDPI screen.

~~~
droptablemain
I drive a 7-year old subcompact and you're telling me that the Mercedes
S-Class is not that expensive because it's only $10k more than the BMW
7-Series.

Those are two quite modestly-spec'd laptops with fairly high price tags. I
bought a rebranded Clevo with pre-installed Ubuntu 4 years ago with an i7 and
16GB of RAM for around $1,000. Does it have cool features like an all-
aluminium construction or a nifty touch-bar? No, but it's a highly functional
machine and has been quite reliable as a daily workstation (I once dropped it
from a second-floor balcony and didn't have to visit a "Genius" since I'm
actually allowed to open it and work on it myself).

Not so great at impressing peers, perhaps; however, I can eat all the
sandwiches I want over my keyboard and it still works.

~~~
danieldk
_Those are two quite modestly-spec 'd laptops with fairly high price tags. I
bought a rebranded Clevo with pre-installed Ubuntu 4 years ago with an i7 and
16GB of RAM for around $1,000._

Sure. I am just saying that there is no big markup for Apple compared to other
vendors. If you want a laptop with the same specs, screen, trackpad, weight,
and thinness as a MacBook Air, you are going to end up in the same price class
as a MacBook Air.

I am not arguing for thin laptops, light laptops, Magic Trackpads, or
whatever. Different people have different requirements. But a lot of people
buy MacBooks based on their requirements and not for status.

I think there is at least one thing that we can agree on: the Touch Bar is
completely unnecessary and a gimmick ;).

