
Tesla factory employees describe grueling work conditions - SirLJ
http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-factory-workers-detail-grueling-conditions-fremont-2017-5
======
Animats
That's why workers need a union. If there's an assembly line station that's
too hard, that's a union grievance. There's a way to work out a solution, with
the worker being in a strong position. Happens all the time in a union plant.

Expecting someone to lift tires overhead for mounting on a production line is
way out of date. Here's how it's done in a Ford plant. First, they show the
old way, where they had a platform at just the right height to roll the wheel
into position. The worker then pushes it onto the lugs and hub. Then, they
show the fully robotized operation.[1]

Here's an older, manual system, but with a counterbalanced lifting aid to do
the heavy part.[2] Simple setups like that are routine. If anybody is lifting
anything heavy on an assembly line, you're doing it wrong. There are many
simple ways to fix that. To see tires lifted entirely by hand in an auto
plant, you have to go back to this famous Chevy film from 1936.[3] That was
before the big GM strike.

Tesla is still learning how to run an auto plant. Tesla isn't as good at this
as they pretend to be. Their head count in Fremont is quite high for the
number of vehicles produced.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imnAYcF05Yo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imnAYcF05Yo)
[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpeONe1qX-c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpeONe1qX-c)
[3] [https://youtu.be/8bT6txm4RpA?t=1516](https://youtu.be/8bT6txm4RpA?t=1516)

~~~
kzisme
While unions are a great thing I wish they they responded and did what they
were created to do more efficiently.

More than a few times in the past year (probably 5-10 grivances have been sent
in, and nothing has been done to solve the issue. (This is the USPS - not me
but a relative)

~~~
acover
Could a union be run as a direct democracy? Instead of a strike fund just
verified segregated savings?

There are much better tools for group discussion and voting.

I feel like most employees would benefit from some form of collective
bargaining as most employers present boiler plate agreements where your only
choice are yes or no.

Edit: on second thought you'd probably get a lot of protectionist, xenophobic
policies. Bye bye h1b, hello arbitrary certification requirements. The
incentives of those in the union are for anticompetitive policies. I'm not
sure how this can be avoided.

------
kilroy123
I'm a huge Elon Musk fan and I deeply share his vision for getting humans on
mars, being more environmentally friendly, etc. However, I'm starting to lose
faith in him.

First of all, the guy is stretched way too thin. He runs two huge companies.
Now he is starting some other company to be even more distracted. (Boring
company)

It sounds like he really pushes his workers way too hard. I wouldn't want to
work at one of his companies. Long hours, a lot of stress, and you're
underpaid!

He rushes too damn much. I understand wanting to be first and beat the
competition, but Telsa is moving way too fast with the Model 3. Rushing this
car to production. With software, when has this ever played out well? They are
building cars that real people will drive. You can't rush or cut corners with
something that will kill people.

I really fear if he doesn't step back and change his ways a bit, he just won't
be able to hire and retain the talent needed to change the world.

~~~
ianai
"how do we survive? How do we not die and have everyone lose their jobs?"

Pretty bad thought to entertain at the CEO level. You can justify nearly
anything with that basic level.

What happened to Ford's "pay them enough to afford what they make"? Sheesh.

~~~
krapp
>What happened to Ford's "pay them enough to afford what they make"? Sheesh.

Henry Ford didn't do business in a global market where he could shop for labor
in China or Mexico. A modern day Henry Ford doesn't need to care whether his
employees can afford what they make, when he has the entire world to sell to.

~~~
danielvf
You are aware Ford has thousands of employees in Brazil in the 20's and 30's?

~~~
krapp
I was not aware. Guess I stand corrected, then.

I think my general point still stands - a modern business doesn't necessarily
benefit from enriching its employees or the community in which it operates.

~~~
User_424
The civility here never fails to disappoint me

~~~
mathperson
Huh? Never fails to impress?

------
icanhackit
A consideration when reading this article: the author Julia Carrie Wong was
also the author of the Guardian article that posited the low number of females
followed by the Twitter accounts of Elon and other tech CEOs like Tim Cook
were indicative of their and their company's attitude towards employing
females and female perspectives in general [1].

 _The Tesla CEO reacted to the report defensively, accusing the publication of
engaging in “phoney PC police axe-grinding”. But his choices do provide a
certain amount of insight into what he, as an individual, finds interesting,
and perhaps it isn’t surprising that a leader in an industry notoriously
averse to hiring women also appears to be uninterested in the views of women
as expressed on Twitter._

[...]

 _So Elon, Tim, Bill, Brian, Eric, et al: here is a list of a few women in or
around the tech industry you might want to try following on Twitter. They are
not all CEOs, but they are all interesting tweeters who can help make your
timeline look a little more like the world outside your companies._

[1]
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/04/twitter-w...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/04/twitter-
women-gender-elon-musk-tim-cook)?

------
justina1
Tesla's preemptive response: [https://www.tesla.com/blog/creating-the-safest-
car-factory-i...](https://www.tesla.com/blog/creating-the-safest-car-factory-
in-the-world)

~~~
accountyaccount
This is spinning so hard that I'm having a hard time reading it.

It sounds like they're increasing efficiency and improving safety but not
actually sharing efficiency gains with employees who are being force to work
"eager college grad at a startup" hours.

~~~
toddmorey
If that's true, how has "the average amount of hours worked by production team
members dropped to about 42 hours per week"?

~~~
crpatino
They introduced a third shift recently, but have been working around the clock
since the very beginning. 5 years is way too much time for a management team
to notice that working 12x6 with your body is way different than working the
same amount of time behind a desk. That's what happens when Silicon Valley
ethos meets the real world.

I guess nobody told the nerds that back-breaking work was not really a
metaphore in the good old days.

------
vkou
> In February, Tesla worker Jose Moran published a blog post that detailed
> allegations of mandatory overtime, high rates of injury and low wages at the
> factory, and revealed that workers were seeking to unionize with the United
> Auto Workers.

This could have a very serious impact on their expenses.

~~~
valuearb
Union organizer runs blog claiming work force unhappiness. News at 11.

------
legulere
> How do we not die and have everyone lose their jobs?

So he is effectively telling workers that if they do not work until they
collapse, not only they will lose their job but all the other workers will as
well and that they are responsible for the destruction of Elon's company.

~~~
valuearb
How is 42 hours a week working to collapse?

~~~
eric_h
42 hours a week in a physically demanding job is very, very different from 42
hours in a chair.

I did a temp job ages ago at a warehouse for 3 weeks, the first of which I was
required to pack and move boxes, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (2 15 minute
breaks and 20 minutes for lunch, complete with a bell telling you when these
things were happening). That first week was brutal.

Fortunately at the end of the first week I demonstrated that I was an order of
magnitude faster at operating the computer for that packing line than the guy
who was running it (also a temp) and I got to stop doing the physical labor so
the remaining time was less terrible.

~~~
valuearb
We've all had physically demanding jobs. After a few weeks your body would
have fully adjusted.

~~~
eric_h
And after a decade or two there would be irreversible damage, regardless of
how "adjusted" your body was.

------
rawland
It is not like the other car companies behave differently.

My father is working on the shop-floor of a large carmaker and they are
setting up the line for a new model right now.

Normally, when something happens -- usually "something" is something you puke
from and get PTSD from witnessing it -- the whole hall gets a security
briefing.

Not now. No time. There is also a lot of pressure to get people working 7 days
a week.

Luckily they get a bunch of days off after the new model is going...

~~~
Aloha
You're echoing my base question.. as I read this, I was thinking:

"How is this any different than GM?"

One of my best friends worked to open the Saturn plant in Spring Hill - and
after 30 years with GM, his body is worn out and broken from the experience.

The reason factory work has traditionally paid so well is to compensate you
for the wear and tear on your body - and to entice people to do a repetitive,
boring job.

~~~
mhermher
GM's factory workers are represented by a union. That's the difference. If
there are abuses, then there is an avenue for redress.

~~~
Aloha
Yes, they are, they fought for and won that right for representation, the
Tesla workers are welcome to do the same.

However, being unionized is not a forgone conclusion, generally (but not
universally) companies EARN a union thru systemic long term mistreatment of
employees.

------
jdietrich
Buried lede, from the article:

> The company did release more recent data, which indicates its record of
> safety incidents went from slightly above the industry average in late 2016,
> to a performance in the first few months of 2017 that was 32% better than
> average. The company said that its decision to add a third shift, introduce
> a dedicated team of ergonomics experts, and improvements to the factory’s
> "safety teams" account for the significant reduction in incidents since last
> year.

Tesla's safety record is now significantly better than average for the auto
industry.

------
bhhaskin
I often wonder how factual articles like this are. Under modern labor laws it
would be difficult to create the kind of situations described. Especially in
California. Unions have been trying infiltrate Tesla for awhile now. They have
the most to gain by disseminating false information. On the other hand if the
information is factual then Tesla really needs to improve working conditions.

~~~
vkou
> They have the most to gain by disseminating false information.

To be fair, management has just as much to gain by disseminating false
information. (That everything is hunky-dory.)

Also, workers trying to organize is not 'infiltration by unions'. It's their
lawful right, in a society which allows free association. Management bargains
collectively - why can't employees?

~~~
bhhaskin
That's true. An independent investigation is really the only way to know for
sure.

~~~
vkou
This will never happen.

More likely, employees will unionize, and come to some agreement with
management, or, they will fail to, and anyone attempting to unionize will be
fired. (Illegally, but in at-will states, employees have almost zero recourse
for that kind of termination.)

~~~
pktgen
> More likely, employees will unionize, and come to some agreement with
> management, or, they will fail to, and anyone attempting to unionize will be
> fired. (Illegally, but in at-will states, employees have almost zero
> recourse for that kind of termination.)

Actually, private-sector employees have recourse for that in all states under
the federal National Labor Relations Act -- they can file a charge with the
NLRB. The NLRB staff are very helpful and understand that most people are not
lawyers, so they will even help you draft the charge form and walk you through
the process.

------
djrogers
Sounds the the 'system' is working and things have improved dramatically:

"The company did release more recent data, which indicates its record of
safety incidents went from slightly above the industry average in late 2016,
to a performance in the first few months of 2017 that was 32% better than
average. The company said that its decision to add a third shift, introduce a
dedicated team of ergonomics experts, and improvements to the factory’s
"safety teams" account for the significant reduction in incidents since last
year."

Of course the focus of the article is going to be the most inflammatory
version possible because that's where the eyeballs come from.

------
6stringmerc
So here's the setup:

> _Watch for these articles to downplay or ignore our actual 2017 safety data
> and to instead focus on a small number of complaints and anecdotes that are
> not representative of what is actually occurring in our factory of over
> 10,000 workers._

...and a citation to drive the point of Safety home:

> _In addition, through the end of Q1 2017, the factory’s total recordable
> incident rate (TRIR), the leading metric for workplace safety, is 4.6, which
> is 32% better than the industry average of 6.7._

...and then we get to the whole "Can Elon Musk really scale Tesla to the
heights he likes to claim are possible" notion of context:

> _Ford had 50,703 U.S. hourly workers as of Feb. 1, according to a report
> from the UAW 's Ford department. A GM spokesman said the company has about
> 50,300 U.S. hourly workers._[1]

So a 32% better safety record with 1/5 the workforce. Hm. Got it.

[1]
[http://www.autonews.com/article/20150215/OEM/302169970/ford-...](http://www.autonews.com/article/20150215/OEM/302169970/ford-
tops-gm-in-u.s.-factory-jobs)

~~~
scott00
TRIR = (Number of OSHA recordable incidents)*200,000 / (total number of hours
worked)

It's already normalized for workforce size.

Source: [https://www.csmgroup.com/trir-a-key-safety-performance-
indic...](https://www.csmgroup.com/trir-a-key-safety-performance-indicator-
you-should-know/)

~~~
mhermher
Maybe he's implying that it doesn't scale linearly.

------
Danihan
Try working in any restaurant for a couple years.

------
Pica_soO
> The supervisor came screaming because you guys cant get it done

Every car company ever. A relative works at BMW, one of the "Zeitarbeiter"
hired fordisassembly work on a old production line cut the power-cord that
supplied the whole new assembly line drive unit in the other part of the hall.
Suddenly - lights out (Guy wasn't hurt). Then those faces starting to search
for the source. Then the usual choir showing up, including if you delay long
enough - factory management. Always the same tune.

Funny thing is also i you get the inter-weeks repair gap time to replace a
stations robot. They are still producing at the line going out - when you rip
the robot out, and replace it, measuring in, teaching - its all with the big
stop-watch in the background.

Program changes are usually prepared ahead of time in this scenario- but when
the unexpected hits, you get "Visitors"\- i guess supposed to improve the
"productivity" by applying "pressure". Usually you play as a team then, one
"Catcher" keeps the "Suits" busy and away from disrupting the guy who has to
code as if his life depends on it. My boss would have to tell you more funny
storys..

TL,DR; Yes, Tesla makes Cars

~~~
gthtjtkt
I put this whole post into Google.com/translate but I'm still completely lost.

~~~
Pica_soO
> The supervisor came screaming because you guys cant get it done

Every car company ever. A relative works at BMW, and had a nice story. One of
the "Zeitarbeiter" hired for disassembly-work on a old production line cut the
main power-cord - that supplied the new assembly line drive unit in the other
part of the hall. Suddenly - lights out (Zeitarbeiter wasn't hurt). Then those
faces starting to search for the origin of the trouble. Guys like my brother
are called to fix it, the clock starts ticking. If the clock ticks too long
the usual choir shows up, including if the delay is long enough - factory
management. And they chant exactly what was in the text.

Funny thing is also if you get a task in the inter-production-weeks repair
gap. They are still producing at the line going out - while your team rips the
robot out, and replaces it, measuring in, teaching and - its all with the big
stop-watch in the back of your mind.

Program changes are usually prepared ahead of time in this scenario- but when
the unexpected Situation hits, you get a constant stream of "Visitors"\- i
guess supposed to improve the "productivity" by applying "pressure". Usually
you play as a team then, one "Catcher" keeps the "Suits" busy and away from
disrupting the guy who has to code as if his life depends on it. My boss would
have to tell you more funny storys..

TL,DR; Yes, Tesla makes Cars

------
valuearb
I'm not sure how the ambulance count is pertinent in this article. In such a
huge workforce you will have events that need ambulances regularly. And
sending for one can actually bee a pro-active measure that actual evidences
care for their workers. For example if someone has shortness of breath, or
faints, etc.

~~~
InitialLastName
Those numbers are also pretty meaningless without a reference.

Having never worked in a 10K+-employee facility, I have no idea how many
ambulances should be called per year. I would imagine that with that many
people, even under idyllic working conditions, the number of medical
emergencies/year would be non-zero, but I'm having trouble picking up an
intuitive expectation for what it should be.

~~~
jaclaz
The "magic number" you are looking for is AFAICT between 0,05 and 0,07, i.e.
it is reasonable to expect 5-7 events needing an ambulance intervention every
100 people per year.

Of course this is a reference for general population, and since the workers in
a factory are by definition younger and healthier than the average population
and hopefully road accidents don't happen in a factory, must be reduced but
1/12 or 1/10 of that wouldn't surprise me, that would be 0.4-0.7/100 per year.

As a reference a minimal requirement for ambulance service (with M.D. on
board) here in Italy is to have an ambulance every 60,000 people, that would
mean, with 3-4 interventions per 8 hours shift on average (2-3
hours/intervention), 365x3x8/3.5=2,502 interventions per year in theory,
reducing this by 10% to consider maintenance, lost/idle time, etc. we have
2,250/60,000=0,0375 or 4 interventions every 100 people, and the number of
vehicles roughly doubles considering the "simpler" ambulances without M.D. on
board, fulfilling the needs. A reference data point (old) is roughly 4,000,000
interventions in the year 2005 on a population of around 60,000,000, that
comes out as 0.66...

So, on a "population" of 10,000 workers 40-50 ambulance calls per year
wouldn't be unexpected at all, but it greatly depends on local organization,
and on actually _when_ (depending on seriousness of event) the ambulance is
called, this may vary with local (state) policies and local-local (industry)
ones.

At least here factories of that or comparable size have an internal medical
service (and almost completely equipped infirmary) and ambulance for at least
first aid/first responder chores and external ambulances are usually called
only in the (much more rare) cases when the worker/patient needs to be
hospitalized or however transferred to a hospital for further exams or the
like.

------
sschueller
How is that even legal to cut pay from 22 am hour to 10 when you get insured
and need to do some lighter work?

------
sschueller
Tesla already has a quality issues. Pushing your employees to these limits
leads to fatigue and loss of quality is guaranteed.

~~~
tripzilch
Cold. Discompassionate.

------
ben_jones
Just wait until one of us disrupts factories with the gig economy.

------
jarpschop
All those Silicon Valley startup bros would be loving capitalism. It gives you
the highest standard of living in history!

~~~
crpatino
That's factually correct but, paraphrasing Orwell's Animal Farm, some "yous"
are more equal than others.

------
SirLJ
sad

------
classicsnoot
Breaking News: some jobs are in fact hard.

------
ensiferum
And this is the guy who ppl compare to the modern age Jesus and applaud him
for making the world better place and ecological. Such bs. He's personally
responsible for more co2 emissions than millions of other ppl put together.
The real heros are the ppl who don't have a car in the first place but use
other transportation.

Seriously the only ecological car is the one that isn't built.

------
crush-n-spread
Well, I am huge fan of Elon and the companies, but I guess that Michael
Sanchez's situation of working with his hands above his head all day,
resulting in two herniated disks, is really sad. But how else can the work get
done?

I guess most people here are going to say that he's pushing his workers too
hard, and that they're losing faith. I think it's just much more difficult
than people appreciate to build a successful car company, and some people will
have their lives spent building it. I think that even if 1 in 100 employees
flat out died because of Tesla, the company and Elon should carry on without
slowing down anything. It's just too important that we transition out of a
carbon economy.

Besides, I don't think conditions are really that bad. This is obviously a
smear piece indicated by mentioning the Model X delays in TFA - What does that
have to do with workplace injuries? Nothing, but they're trying to bring down
Elon and his companies.

Workplace injuries are bad, but Elon is a poppy that's 100 times taller than
the rest. I think they're trying to cut him down more than anything. May the
old-school unions be perpetually denied any access to his factories.

~~~
stijnstijn
Tesla could design their factory so that people don't have to work with their
hands above their head all day. There's a video further up in this thread
showing how a production line in a Ford factory where they clearly took care
to make the workers handle things right in front of them as much as possible.
It just requires you to have the worker's comfort (or, actually, health) in
mind when designing the production line. Or if that's not possible, assign
shifts so people don't have to work in an unhealthy position for too long.
Apparently that didn't happen at Tesla, which I personally think is a fair
thing to blame them for.

