
Model F Keyboards project – Bringing back the buckling spring keyboard - gribbits
http://www.popularmechanics.com/ibm-model-f-keyboard-buckling-spring
======
kps
Model F buckling springs were still a cost-reduced inferior replacement for
beam springs¹, which themselves were a decent but imperfect attempt to imitate
the best key feel in the history of the universe, the Selectric.

¹
[https://deskthority.net/wiki/Beam_spring](https://deskthority.net/wiki/Beam_spring)

Edit: It's not entirely correct to blame cost-reduction alone for the end of
the beam springs. ISO 9241 killed the existing beam spring switches, and
making the replacements equally good (or better — they did suffer from wobble)
would have been expensive.

~~~
type0
Here is a review of the beam springs and some of it's problems:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNRH1ULmbNA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNRH1ULmbNA)

~~~
kps
The big problem there, slow speed, is not inherent to the technology but stems
from the replacement (USB) interface. Scanning the capacitive matrix of these
keyboards with a commodity microcontroller is an amazing achievement, but it
only just barely works.

------
cholantesh
The original title is pretty clickbaity (which, I suppose, is fitting). The
switches are great, but so long as your arms are forced together as they are
by most keyboards, you are still doing untold damage to your upper body. I'll
stick with my Kinesis Advantage.

~~~
jdcarter
I appreciate the effort that people are putting into the switches themselves,
but agreed, updating the layout is where the real gains are found. I've used
Kinesis keyboards for 20 years--I now own four of them of various vintage--and
I'm surprised they never found broader adoption. There's so many benefits:

\- Key well is cupped so all key rows are near-equal distance; you don't need
to move your hand around.

\- Key columns are vertical, no angular stretches for your fingers.

\- Modifiers are right under your thumbs, no hand movement required. Emacs
users rejoice!

\- You can remap those keys under your thumbs. I remapped one to control-space
("set mark" in emacs), which is lovely.

Adaptation really isn't that hard. Unlike "big" changes such as switching to
Dvorak layout, adapting to the Kinesis Advantage doesn't take much training.
It took me about 2 weeks to get back to speed, and much of that was because I
was a sloppy typist when I switched. (The Kinesis pretty much forces you to
touch type correctly.) By contrast, switching to Dvorak took me about 2
months.

EDIT: for completeness, a couple disadvantages of the Kinesis: 1) Escape key
is not mechanical, it's on a row of gummy-feeling function keys. vi/vim users
will probably want to remap one of the thumb keys to escape. 2) It's not great
for gaming, I still use a traditional-layout mechanical keyboard for games.

~~~
philh
The kinesis is expensive. It's worth it for lots of people, but not everyone.
And it's hard to say whether it'll be worth it for _you_ without buying one.
(They have a return policy, but a lot of people are going to be unwilling to
take advantage of it. And with shipping costs, it might still be expensive,
especially if you're international.)

As an aside, I believe recent models have mechanical esc and function keys.

~~~
jdcarter
Sure it's expensive, but we're talking about your primary input device which
you use for hours every day. If your job is in front of a computer, do
yourself a _huge_ favor and get a decent keyboard, display, and chair. You
also amortize that cost over a very long time--these keyboards last forever.
My 20 year-old Kinesis (with a USB dongle) works just as good today as it did
when I bought it.

But to your point, it's a leap that most people have to take on faith, as they
probably can't find one to demo. I had the good fortune of having a coworker
with one so I could try it first; a couple minutes with the Kinesis was all it
took to sell me. The same's happened in my current office; now 4-5 people use
them. But to the average person who can't try before they buy, it's a leap,
and I'm sure that's hindered adoption significantly.

You're right on the current model's escape/function keys, looks like they're
mechanical now--excellent! All of mine are older models.

------
teuobk
Am I the only one who never liked those clicky, long-throw mechanical
keyboards? I much prefer the very short throws of laptop-style keyboards,
particularly the Logitech K750.

That's not to say I like mushy keys. I just don't like having to press very
hard or very far for a keystroke to register.

~~~
JohnStrange
Have you really tried them? For me, mechanical keyboards are among those
things in the category "You don't know what you're missing but once you know,
you can't go back." Like heroin, I guess. Buckling spring probably not, but
maybe some Cherry switch would be just the right thing for you. Anyway, before
I got my Unicomp I had no idea how bad other keyboards were, especially laptop
keyboards.

Coincidentally, I've retired my Unicomp yesterday to save desk space in
exchange for a Pok3r with Cherry blue switches. It's one of the few mechanical
"hipster" keyboards that allow you to put Ctrl next to the "a" letter, where
it belongs. (HHKB has this built-in, but it's just too expensive. And it's
also not programmable.) Unfortunately, the Pok3r has one disadvantage: When
you set CapsLock to Ctrl and L_Ctrl to Fn, then Fn+Ctrl key combos don't work
properly. So I'll have to change Paredit keybindings in Emacs. :/

It's a pity that Unicomp doesn't produce a tenkeyless keyboard.

~~~
technofiend
>Ctrl next to the "a" letter, where it belongs.

This is the reason I'm typing on a Sun type 6 "UNIX" keyboard despite being
mushier than bread pudding. I'd love a mechanical keyboard with a proper
cluster of Sun buttons and maybe some dampeners so it's not obnoxiously loud
but still gives proper tactile feedback.

~~~
tinbucket
Unicomp, the company formed by a staff buyout of IBM's keyboard division,
offer a real mechanical in Sun "UNIX" layout:
[http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA](http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA)

It's a dream to type on and has the 'right' layout. It's not cheap or quiet,
but it really is the best keyboard I've ever used. I'd kill for an affordable
HHKB-sized Model M from Unicomp.

~~~
technofiend
Wow that's pretty sexy, but it's missing the L1/Stop button row on the left-
hand side. That's what I meant by proper cluster of Sun buttons. It's still
interesting, though. And tempting.

------
sjm
Unicomp[0] have been making Model-F inspired buckling spring keyboards exactly
like this for a while.

[0]: [https://www.pckeyboard.com](https://www.pckeyboard.com)

~~~
bryanlarsen
Those are Model-M keyboards, which have a lot more plastic and less steel.

~~~
braindouche
Still weighs a ton. And they've been in basically continuous manufacture ever
since the old days. And they have full 100+ key layouts with a lot of
alternative layouts. And they cost a third of the kickstarted model F. And
they have replaceable parts. And they don't ping. And I own and love three of
them and I might be biased.

~~~
mdellabitta
They're also not quite the same as a vintage Model M in terms of keyfeel or
quality. And a Model M is not quite the same as a Model F. I'm typing on a
Model M SSK right now, I have a Unicomp in the closet, and one of the
keyboards mentioned in the article on order.

~~~
justin66
Their PS/2 keyboards are exactly the same - they're genuine Model M keyboards.
They even sold some keyboards with the IBM logo (a compact keyboard with the
IBM logo, which sucked because of the goofy layout), so they must have bought
some inventory in addition to the tooling from IBM.

There's a big caveat, though: not all Model M keyboards were the same, so the
comparison might or might not ring true depending on what Model M you used.
For example, the one that came with my PS/2 Model 50z back in the day was
heavier and sturdier than some of the ones that IBM made later, and had a
removable cable. The Unicomp stuff compares to what IBM was making immediately
before they gave up on the whole business, I think. Then Unicomp eventually
made some USB keyboards, which turned out not to be the greatest...

And yeah, the Model F was a completely different thing entirely.

(edit: in truth, I haven't bought anything there in a little over nine years,
wow... their Classic 101 still looks pretty legit)

~~~
mdellabitta
Yeah, my SSK is an '87\. There's definite differences in terms of weight and
key wobble, and the keycaps on the Unicomp are less sturdy.

Plus I do actually have a USB model, and it can be flaky and require a replug
at startup. And the pointing stick has different sensitivity based on which
direction you're going, which makes it worthless.

Also, I just like the tenkeyless layout.

The benefit to a new Model F is I'll never have to worry about needing to do a
bolt mod, and you can actually move the barrels around to a different layout
if you want to. Plus, with the XWhatsit controller, you can program it and
have layers and whatnot, and bug-free USB. And the case is metal.

The Unicomp stuff is comparable, but I think it's a reach to say it's totally
the same.

~~~
justin66
I might have written something misleading unintentionally, since I haven't
been a Unicomp customer in a long time. I really felt that the half dozen or
so Unicomp keyboards I bought in the late nineties were the same. I don't own
any of those keyboards anymore, but I am pretty sure they even had the IBM
logo. It might be that they weren't really representative of Unicomp and were
leftover IBM inventory. The black USB keyboard I bought from Unicomp nine
years ago was certainly a disappointment, although I think the switch feel was
essentially correct.

I respect that these new guys are doing a Model F clone instead of a Model M
clone, it definitely reflects good taste, but I don't really agree that the
Cherry MX Blue switch is a "shadow of their predecessor," as the article
states. The only thing lacking I've seen in some newer mechanical keyboards
based on Cherry switches is, oddly, that they sometimes find new and exciting
ways to mess up the engineering of the space bar. That seems like it should be
a relatively straightforward thing.

------
skocznymroczny
I've bought into the hype and used a blue switch mechanical keyboard for six
months, but now I'm switching back to rubber dome/chiclet. Unfortunately I
can't type on tall mechanical keyboards and it was killing my wrists. The keys
also felt too hard to press for my taste. One of my favourite keyboards right
now is Apple full-sized keyboard. I might even buy it for my Windows PC.

~~~
hocuspocus
Blue Cherry MX switches have a pretty low actuation force: they're lighter
than most rubber domes and scissor switches.

If you had wrist pain it sounds like your keyboard is too high indeed, but
it's not a tall keyboard that is the issue here (and we're talking about 2-3
cm tall...), lower your desk!

------
mamcx
If wanna go into the rabbit hole of mech keyboards, visit this:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/)

\---

I'm already building a pseudo-MS Ergo keyboard, waiting for the plates.

~~~
Elvewyn
After I accidentally killed my Poker II (no more iced tea near my desk, I
learned my lesson), I decided to buy a kit. Very excited to put it all
together.

------
melling
How about a little more innovation in keyboards? It is 30 years later. Split
keyboards?

[https://shop.keyboard.io](https://shop.keyboard.io)

Tenting capable?

Add a Soli chip?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QNiZfSsPc0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QNiZfSsPc0)

~~~
falcolas
Like beds, people aren't usually willing to spend lots of money on a good
keyboard. It's unfortunate, especially considering how much time you spend
typing on one. But the moment you start talking mechanical switches, your
keyboard is going to be above the hundred dollar mark (knock-offs
notwithstanding). Split the keyboard, another two hundred dollars. Throw in
something like Soli, and you're looking at a thousand dollar keyboard.

How many people would be willing to pay over a thousand dollars for a good
keyboard?

~~~
Sorreah
Is there any good reason why splitting a hundred dollar keyboard would have to
cost three times as much?

Anyway, I paid 30 euros for my last mechanical (with rgb lighting) shipped to
my door. Patent expiration is a beautiful thing.

~~~
falcolas
Extra controllers (and PCBs), cabling to connect the two halves, extra plastic
for the housing... there are definite real costs involved. However, once
you're above a hundred dollars you're in a niche market anyways, so why not
charge more boutique prices? I imagine this is the real explanation for the
price.

As for patent expiration - yeah, it can be a beautiful thing for prices, but
I'm still quite leery of picking up a cheap keyboard; quality parts that last
(and more importantly behave consistently through their lifespan) still cost
money.

------
zevv
For those who are not old enough to remember this:
[https://github.com/zevv/bucklespring](https://github.com/zevv/bucklespring)

------
bcg1
Article is a little misleading... you don't need "extensive modification" to
use a Model F keyboard with a modern computer... the Model F AT keyboard can
plug directly into a PS/2 port and be used as-is:

[https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Model_F#IBM_Personal_Comput...](https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Model_F#IBM_Personal_Computer_AT_keyboard)

This article seems to be about a business that is actually re-engineering the
Model F to be more modern... which is certainly interesting and impressive,
but the article is a little misleading.

One really nice feature of these keyboards is that they use capacitance
sensing to detect when a key is actuated, instead of a matrix of columns and
rows, so there is no ghosting effect when multiple keys are pressed. If you
disassemble the keyboard you can actually type right on the PCB with your
fingers like a touchpad.

~~~
swampangel
The keyboards they're copying are based on the IBM 4704 rather than the PC AT
keyboard [http://kishy.ca/?p=894](http://kishy.ca/?p=894)

It's more desirable because its layouts are a bit closer to modern 60/80%
keyboards, but it doesn't have an AT interface.

~~~
bcg1
True enough, I just think it is a bit misleading to act as if that is somehow
_the_ colloquial Model F Keyboard when really they are recreating a pretty
obscure keyboard relative to the XT or AT Model f's.

------
rietta
If I hadn't just bought a Ergodox EZ I would be all over this. I don't think
my wife would forgive me for a month if I bought another keyboard right now. I
already owe her decorating her office because of this last one. She doesn't
appreciate why my odd keyboards are a critical, work related investment.

~~~
slezyr
What cherry switched did you choose?

~~~
rietta
I went with Blue.

------
atemerev
My first PC was an IBM PC/AT, complete with original Model M keyboard (model F
is the same, but more compact). I remember it well; I'd say it is somewhat
overrated. Activation force threshold is too high; it is LOUD (and even if it
doesn't bother you, the sound itself starts to be pretty annoying after 2-3
weeks), etc.

Designing a good keyboard is a subtle art. I still prefer mechanicals, but I
haven't found anything that worked _perfectly_ for me.

------
jaclaz
Personally, I still have two spare Model M's (I had three but one died in an
accident involving hot coffee), but even among the model M's there are
different constructions, the older ones with detachable cable are much better
(and heavier) than a few more modern ones (still original IBM model M's) I
have seen.

------
amelius
I liked the Sun Microsystems Type 5 keyboard.

~~~
cannam
My favourite as well. I have one on my desk here. (It was £17 on eBay a few
years ago. The USB converter for it was a lot more expensive than the
keyboard.)

There's a problem though. The Type-5 used to be one of the quieter workstation
keyboards, and it's far less noisy than a Model M, but the flat keyboards of
today are so much quieter than any of those used to be that I can no longer
use it in an open plan office without feeling conspicuous. I'm not sure
whether it does annoy my colleagues (they are very polite) but I do feel
uncomfortable about it and as a consequence it doesn't get as much use as I
might like.

~~~
tga
Good news, you can also make your own Type 5 adapter using an Arduino. Check
out this great project:
[https://github.com/benr/SunType5_ArduinoAdapter](https://github.com/benr/SunType5_ArduinoAdapter).

------
neves
I really love my Model M. Unfortunately, the cable is rotten and the small
manufacturer doesn't deliver it to Brazil. Buying a new one would be weird
since Brazil standard keyboard is the only one that puts 14 keys in the row
above the space bar. Now I have 3 unused Model M in my house. Very sad :-(

~~~
derekp7
If you look under the shift keys, there are spacers in the spots where the
extra keys would go. The pad is actually active under it. So what you can do
is pop the plastic rivets that hold the metal back plate on to the plastic
frame, and replace them with small screws/nuts (do a google search for "Model
M bolt modification"). Once you get it apart, you can take out the spacers,
and replace it with pivot plates, then you can put an appropriate key in the
spot (from a dead keyboard, for example).

------
exabrial
I can't think of a more productive way to annoy your coworkers! I kid...

But really! My first computer was an XT, than an AT. At the time, I could type
faster than the screen could scroll! I'd like to think part of that was that
awesome DIN connector keyboard!

------
rietta
I was hoping that the model F was the one with the function keys on the left.
But alas, no.

~~~
lproven
Exactly!

What is the point of recreating something _resembling_ a Model F but that
doesn't have the same layout? Ctrl to the left of A, Caps Lock out of the way
at lower right (in just the right position to be remapped as RAlt or Compose).

What thought process goes "we'll recreate this classic device but we'll remove
just a couple of the features that make it distinctive"? How is that ever
going to be a recipe for success?

------
mikejmoffitt
The Model F only registers key down events, and can't report a key-up. I don't
want that ever again. Unlike many other aspects of old computer peripherals
and designs, there's no tangible advantage to this limitation.

------
velebak
Don't forget Unicomp's been around for a while.
[https://www.pckeyboard.com/](https://www.pckeyboard.com/)

All they brought back was a zinc case?

------
gcoda
It makes me angry, modern keyboards still have rows with half-key offset, why?

"Ortholinear" are not problematic for casual typists, and makes typing with
all 10 fingers a lot easier.

------
fimdomeio
The only problem I have with the keyboards is that than my laptop monitor is
to far away from me.

~~~
takleizo
I usually lay my keyboard over the laptop keys, and disable the built-in
keyboard - maybe that's something that would work for you too?

------
jdlyga
We're either going for almost completely flat keyboards like the new Macbooks,
or the clickiest most obtuse mechanical keyboards. Why can't we have a good
compromise?

~~~
mark-r
Here's a comment from a couple of months ago that pointed out a silent
mechanical keyboard. Despite my exclamation I haven't picked one up yet.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14394268](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14394268)

~~~
swampangel
You made a good choice, because the current version of those switches has a
problem with repeated keystrokes:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4t08br...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4t08br/kbparadise_v60_matias_quiet_key_chatter_issue/)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5qjsbn...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5qjsbn/so_does_matias_just_pretend_it_doesnt_have_a/)

However, they are very nice to type on, and Matias is supposedly producing a
new version of the switch.

