
The Cheapest Route to 6 Continents - laumac
http://flightfox.com/contest/18969
======
todsul
Here are the winning flight details:

This is a 6-Continent RTW itinerary for $1,730. We personally verified that
it's a valid itinerary, and at the time of checking, all flights could be
booked.

    
    
       JFK 18-Oct-2012 GEO 18-Oct-2012 Delta (New York, US to Georgetown, Guyana)
       GEO 25-Oct-2012 JFK 25-Oct-2012 Delta (Georgetown, Guyana to New York, US)
       JFK 14-Nov-2012 TXL 15-Nov-2012 Air Berlin (New York, US to Berlin, Germany)
       SXF 29-Jan-2013 AGA 29-Jan-2013 EasyJet (Berlin, Germany to Agadir, Morocco)
       AGA 05-Feb-2013 LGW 05-Feb-2013 EasyJet (Agadir, Morocco to London, UK)
       LTN 26-Feb-2013 SAW 26-Feb-2013 EasyJet (London, UK to Istanbul, Turkey)
       SAW 18-Mar-2013 IKA 19-Mar-2013 Pegasus (Istanbul, Turkey to Tehran, Iran)
       IKA 29-Mar-2013 KUL 30-Mar-2013 AirAsia (Tehran, Iran to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia)
       KUL 02-Apr-2013 PER 02-Apr-2013 AirAsia (Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia to Perth, Australia - YAY!)
       PER 07-Apr-2013 KUL 07-Apr-2013 AirAsia (Perth, Australia to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia)
       KUL 09-Apr-2013 BKK 09-Apr-2013 AirAsia (Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia to Bangkok, Thailand)
       BKK 18-Apr-2013 KBP 18-Apr-2013 Aerosvit (Bangkok, Thailand to Kiev, Ukraine)
       KBP 18-Apr-2013 JFK 18-Apr-2013 Aerosvit (Kiev, Ukraine to New York, US)
    

Any questions, please ask.

~~~
ashbrahma
This looks like a combination of one-way and RT tickets. Do your experts give
instructions on how these tickets can be booked relatively quickly?

~~~
todsul
Just to follow up on laumac's comment, the booking instructions tend to be a
large part of the secret sauce. In this case, we fully verified them and all
the flights were bookable at the time of verification. We disallowed a few
itineraries that didn't properly visit all continents. As an aside, it was
interesting to define what countries fit in which continents. For example,
Guam, Curacao, Turkey.

~~~
prawn
I think Istanbul is considered to straddle Europe and Asia.

Fly in to Ataturk (Istanbul), stay for a couple of nights, bus across the
river and fly out of SGI (Istanbul). Europe and Asia, done?

------
michael991
Hi, I'm the creator of this itinerary. This is a site with great potential. If
you appreciate the effort it took to come up with the trip and are interested
in trying out the site, please follow my referral link and you'll get a 25%
discount on your first flight! <http://flightfox.com/referral/16686> Thanks :)
Michael

~~~
blyuher
How did you find BKK to KBP to JFK flight? Skyscanner and Hipmunk don't return
this within the results. But so doesn't Aerosvit site.

~~~
michael991
I'm new to this site. Are PMs possible? If so, PM me.

~~~
blyuher
No, PMs are not possible, but my email is bblyuher AT gmail dot com. Thanks!

~~~
michael991
No problem :) Sent!

~~~
kornholi
I'm interested in your magic as well. If you don't mind, you can reach me at
kornholijo at gmail.com. Thanks!

~~~
michael991
Any flight in particular? I can't give it all away as that would be unfair to
Flightfox, as well as other experts. Flightfox really is a very good site
where experts work hard finding you the best price for your particular needs.

~~~
exhilaration
I'm New Jersey - would love to know how you found the JFK-BKK flight as well,
please e-mail me usmanc---at----gmail. No need to give it all away - I plan to
use Flightfox in the future for complicated travel. I just did a crazy
complicated Middle East and Asia trip, it would have been worth $50 to me just
to see other options than what my travel agent booked.

~~~
michael991
Hi, The price above doesn't hold for the opposite direction. Everyone asking
me for flight prices, go to flightfox and I'm sure you'll be happy with the
results. Thanks, Michael

------
laumac
For the cheapest route ($1,730), here are the cities visited:

Depart New York \- Georgetown (South Am) \- New York (North Am) \- Berlin
(Europe) \- Agadir (Africa) \- London (Europe) \- Turkey (Europe) \- Tehran
(Asia) \- Kuala Lumpur (Asia) \- Perth (Oceania) \- Bangkok (Asia) \- End New
York

~~~
mseebach
Geography nitpick: The airport in Istanbul is actually east of the Bosporus,
making it Asia.

~~~
todsul
Hey mseebach,

We had a few issues in the beginning defining these border countries and
decided to allow Istanbul as Europe, but will definitely group it for Asia in
future.

We had a handful of difficult decisions, but luckily the winning entry visited
all continents without contention.

Guam was the tough one for us. Would you say Oceania?

~~~
mseebach
For the winning intinerary, it's a moot point as both Europe and Asia are
represented at different stops.

Istanbul Atatürk (TAV) airport is Europe, Sabiha Gökçen (SAW) is in Asia. The
border is the straight of Bosporus.

Continents are a rather vague concept[1]. Any definition is going to be
arbitrary. For the purposes of your contest, I think the spirit would be to
have gone to the continents "proper", i.e. I wouldn't count Guam at all, but
say the continents are the _mainlands_ of: NA, SA, Africa, Europe, Asia,
Australia, Antarctica. I'd be inclined to allow New Zealand as part of
Australia as the only exception.

1: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uBcq1x7P34>

~~~
plasticgun
> I'd be inclined to allow New Zealand as part of Australia as the only
> exception.

Sure - why not, there's only a sea between us that you can fit an area the
size of California to Nebraska into ... pretty close really.

~~~
mseebach
Allow it as part of the australian _continent_ , despite the water. The
alternative is to not recognize it as part of _any_ continent. Just like how
California and Nebraska are part of the same continent despite, what, three
deserts and two mountain ranges between them.

Did I mention that any definition of continents is arbitrary?

------
todsul
Sorry all, we've put up a cached version on the live site, so it's loading
now. We'll also post details of the flights here so you can see how the trip
was created.

~~~
laumac
We'll be up again in a minute - just upgrading the box :)

------
ajays
I am curious about the scalability of such an endeavor. If you have to verify
the fares by hand, you need a certain minimum amount of return before it
becomes worth it.

For example: I live in SFO. I might want to fly down to Vegas for the weekend,
any weekend from now till (say) September, for $150rt. How much overhead would
you charge to make it worth your while?

Also: how do you settle disputes? Say I get an itinerary from the contest
(supposedly verified by you), and it doesn't work for me. Now what do I do?

And finally (apologize for too many questions): what about travel documents?
Apparently, even if you're transitioning through LHR, you need a British visa
if you're not from a certain blessed list of countries. What if I don't have a
visa, but you end up sending me through London?

Please don't get me wrong: I like the idea. I'm just trying to wrap my head
around how it can be scaled.....

~~~
todsul
Hi ajays, sorry for the confusion; we only verified flights by hand for this
contest because it was somewhat contentious. With other contests, we let the
contest holder rate/vet entries. If a flight hacker repeatedly enters bogus
flights, we would deal with them. But that hasn't happened yet. It's in
everyone's interests to spend time posting legitimate flights.

Right now, SFO to LAS isn't an optimal route for Flightfox. This will change
very soon, but right now price is key and if you already know short domestic
routes well, there's less chance we can help. In the near future, we'll
capitalize on non-financial value of flights. This is really where we'll
innovate.

If you aren't satisfied, for whatever reason, we offer a full refund. You
generally need to ask for a refund within three days because we auto-award
contests if they're abandoned. Our theory is that if you're not happy, you
deserve your money back.

As for your last question about docs, we tend to leave that in the hands of
the traveler. That should change soon as we build out the site (it's still
very early days). We want Flightfox to be your one-stop-shop for flights,
including all non-price info and all the tips and tricks that will make flying
a much better experience.

~~~
ajays
Thanks for the response. It is a neat idea, and I'll try it out soon. I wish
you folks all the success!

------
geoka9
I'd be interested in a similar contest but with business class seats instead.

It would be interesting to see how much it takes to fly around the world in
comfort :)

~~~
todsul
We can definitely see that contest coming up soon. With this contest we
thought sub-$2k would be a huge stretch, but the flight hackers seemed to
manage it with ease. For business, we can't imagine it being less than $5-6k,
but we'll see. Sub-$5k would be amazing.

~~~
path411
I would also be curious with a maximum of say 1 or 2 month timeframe. If I was
actually curious in an "around the world" trip, I don't think I'd want to stay
11 weeks in Germany, ha.

------
confluence
Cached Version:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sourceid=chrome...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sourceid=chrome-
psyapi2&ie=UTF-8&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fflightfox.com%2Fcontest%2F18969)

------
gmig
"Sorry, only the contest owner can view flight details."

------
mayukh
they use still use a similar principle in India for a lot of travel -- its
called a travel agency. I suppose flightfox is just making it very clear who
the best travel agents are.

Gluck, I'll give this a shot during my next international travel.

~~~
todsul
Hi there, in one respect you're right; we absolutely value human-power in
flight search, which is why we're crowdsourced. But compared to traditional
agents, we're much more aligned to your interests. Our experts don't take
commissions, so they only suggest flights on their merits. If someone posts a
better/cheaper flight, they simply win.

Also, with crowdsourcing, you get access to expert skill and local knowledge
all over the world. You're not limited to the skill and experience of one
person. Frequent flyer programs are important in this respect because few
agents have an in-depth knowledge of these programs. Airlines generally don't
pay commissions on those flights, so it doesn't make sense for agents to
become specialists in this area.

Our experts come from all walks: agents, travelers, frequent flyers, etc. So
you get access to a wide array of experience.

------
thechut
I see the page and the prices but their website literally does nothing...

~~~
laumac
People who need a flight can create a contest and then flight hackers compete
against each other to find them the best deals/flights. This RTW contest was
an experiment to see how far our hackers could go, and considering a RTW
itinerary usually costs $4k+, their results are pretty impressive.

~~~
thechut
Sorry, I should have clarified. I wasn't able to click to actually see the
itineraries created even though there are "View Details" links. The other
links I tried to click on the page also just hung. I guess all the hn traffic
took them down.

Edit: I see your other post above now with the cities! Thanks!!

------
actuary
My first thought upon clicking through was "Wow, a big crowd-sourced database
of very cheap flights to random destinations. I think I know how I'm going to
plan my next vacation!"

But then: "Sorry, only the contest owner can view flight details." And there's
nothing more for me to see here and I go back to what I was doing. Very cool
concept otherwise, though.

~~~
todsul
Hi actuary,

Apologies for the confusion. Typically, a customer puts up a contest so our
flight hackers can find them the best or cheapest flight.Often this contains a
lot of personal information, as well as the secrets of our flight experts.
Flightfox hinges on competitive advantage, so we keep the flight details
private.

I've posted some of the flight details above, so you can at least see where
the flight stops.

But be assured that if you put your own contest up, you can see everything.
Also, we're constantly adding more and more flight information to help you
make an informed decision.

------
hahla
Wow that's a bummer I would have loved to at least see how far that money
stretched (ie. places visited).

~~~
todsul
Hi hahla, please see my post above. We've listed the individual flights and
airlines. All the best.

------
zwass
Love the idea. You'd really have me if I could at least see something about
the itinerary. Dates, cities, at least. Why do you have a "view details" link
that does nothing? I doubt that gives away enough to render your service
unnecessary.

~~~
todsul
Hi Zwass, working on it right now. Just trying to keep the server up. But
we'll get to it as soon as we can. For most contests it's important that only
the contest holder can see the details, because they're often quite personal.
But in this case we'll post the itinerary because it's quite interesting to
see how the winner managed to construct a 6-continent itinerary for $1730.
Will post back soon.

~~~
zwass
Awesome. I see your point, and am excited to see the results for this one.

------
caseyf
Is there going to be a way to create more flexible contests like this as a
Flightfox user? Right now it looks like I can only do the same sorts of things
that I can do on other travel sites (one way, round trip, multi city)

I'd love to be able to put in something like me -> (any of these 10
destinations) or me + friend who lives elsewhere + friend who lives elsewhere
-> (any of these 10 destinations)

~~~
laumac
At the moment you can put in whatever you want - we have with this contest -
you can write a custom destination like "Anywhere in Europe" or "Round the
World". There's a text box where you can put any requirements you like, you
can even ask for help to use your 100k United miles etc. We've left it
completely open to see how people use it and then build on that.

------
jser
How is this different than buying an around the world ticket through an
airline alliance (e.g. OneWorld, Star)? Those tickets tend to start at around
$2000, sometimes less: [http://www.oneworld.com/flights/round-the-world-
fares/onewor...](http://www.oneworld.com/flights/round-the-world-
fares/oneworld-explorer/)

~~~
_delirium
OTW fares were legitimate entries in this contest, but they _don't_ start very
near $2000 for hitting all six continents. I briefly checked, and would've
entered one in this contest if it were that cheap. :)

Even at low season, if you price out an itinerary starting/ending in North
America and hitting all six, using OneWorld's online calculator, it always
comes out $3500+. You can get lower if you don't have the six-continent
requirement, though.

------
GodsMoon
Can I pay a small fee and see all the results? I would even pay a monthly fee
for that. I would be very interested in that.

~~~
laumac
You can create your own flight contest and note exactly which cities you want
to visit and we'll find you the best/cheapest itinerary. We're discussing now
about opening up the results of this RTW contest for a smaller fee, would
anyone else be interested in that?

~~~
kapkapkap
I think people most of us are curious to see the detailed results but I don't
think more than a few people would be willing to shell out any $. Perhaps
consider opening up the detailed results for this contest as a one-time-thing?
I think that the interest+publicity you will receive (in addition to already
being #1 on HN) would greatly out-weigh the few hundred bucks that you might
get from a handful of people who'd seriously be willing to pay to see these
results.

When a post is on top of HN, I don't think we're used to seeing the meat of
the content stuck behind a quasi-paywall.

EDIT: It looks like you've posted the results publicly now, nice.

~~~
todsul
Love the idea; we'll definitely give it some thought, especially how the
experts can profit from these fees well after they post the flight option.

Aside: we really didn't expect this post to get to the top of HN. Our intern
was running around the apartment saying, "I told you we should have planned
better."

------
martindale
There doesn't appear to be a way to register without creating a contest. As
someone who'd doesn't have any trip plans right now (and doesn't want to
clutter your database with fake data), I'd like to know if there's a simple
registration page? I tried just /register to no avail.

~~~
todsul
Hi martin,

The only registration options are 1) becoming a customer, or 2) becoming an
expert. There's no advantage to registering because only customers can see
flight details for their contests and only experts can post flight options.
Otherwise, what you see as a guest is all there is.

This will of course change as we build out the site, but right now it's just a
one-trick-pony.

------
bajsejohannes
Very cool! I wish we didn't need humans to find flight tickets, though.
Hipmunk is getting pretty good, but I always end up tweaking the itinerary
manually. Seems such a simple problem (except this particular one, which is
NP-complete)

------
nachteilig
They've learned an interesting lesson from other travel sites too, in that
they emailed me when I didn't complete my contest and asked why. Very nice.

------
jhuni
Is this using an eight content model, including Antarctica, Oceania, Asia,
Europe, North America, South America, Australia, and Africa?

~~~
6ren
I was hoping for the 6 Continent model, which would include Antarctica!
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent#Number_of_continents> But no, search
for "6 Continents:" (including the ":") on the submitted site:

    
    
      - North America includes Central America
      - South America is mostly the mainland
      - Europe is borded by Istanbul (Turkey), Azerbaijan and the Caucasus in Russia
      - Africa is mostly the mainland bordered by Egypt
      - Asia is the Middle East, East of the Caucasus, and Indonesia (West Papua)
      - Oceania is Australia, NZ and the islands

------
blhack
Why do you require my email address and a place where I was referred to search
a flight?

~~~
laumac
When you launch a flight contest, there are real people on the other end who
are searching just for you, so we need to let you know when they've found a
great flight. As for asking how you found out about us, we're just gathering
information on what works best for customer acquisition.

------
science_robot
Why would you use a human flight expert instead of an algorithm?

~~~
todsul
Hi science_robot,

The entire premise of Flightfox is that humans beat machines. Of course, in
some cases if you only consider price this is debatable, but in many more
cases, humans really do win.

Why? Because there is a lot of flight data and there is a material cost to
performing a search. If you want a 6-Continent RTW trip, a flight search
engine can't run 1,000,000 queries just to find you the cheapest route. The
data providers impose pretty tight limits. When you hit those limits in
aggregate, you risk very high costs.

Apart from that, and most importantly, humans have a wealth of knowledge that
simply isn't catalogued. That's because it's too broad, too often changing,
too obscure, or the airlines don't want OTAs to use that info; e.g. award
flight availability across all airlines.

Our challenge now is to expand into many of these non-price factors and offer
value even for short trips where we can't beat airline advertised prices. But
as you can imagine, in its current state, Flightfox really comes into its own
for complicated flights, even if just slightly complex.

The posted contest really beats anything on the web by a large amount. 6
continents for $1730 is pretty remarkable, or at least we think. It's not us
who found it, it's our experts, who are the fabric of Flightfox.

Hope that helps.

~~~
skeletonjelly
Out of interest, how hard is it to get data feeds? Do you have to pay or is
cost based on referrals? Do you have to enter an agreement? Understand if you
can't answer.

~~~
todsul
List price (for minimum monthly spend) is in the 10s of thousands, but of
course everyone does deals to reduce fees at this level. The problem is that
those data feeds don't hold the key to the best flights. We're trying to
leverage the stuff that won't be in data feeds for at least a decade (likely
forever).

~~~
skeletonjelly
Thanks! Must be hard to be a startup wanting to get into this industry then
(edit: without an obvious capital injection)?

------
anonymoushn
Is "View Details" supposed to redirect to the same page?

------
mliubinskas
Love it.

It would be great to add premium economy in there too. :-)

------
chrisrickard
working for me..

------
MIT_Hacker
ybombinator'd?

~~~
joshmlewis
Yep. For me as well.

