
Diageo to launch Johnnie Walker whisky in paper bottles - hhs
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-diageo-packaging/diageo-to-launch-johnnie-walker-whisky-in-paper-bottles-in-2021-idUSKCN24E112
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raesene9
I've never seen whisky (Johnnie Walker or others) in a plastic bottle...

If the Whisky industry wants to cut down on waste, there's a really easy way
to do it. Stop putting whisky into fancy cardboard/metal boxes (or at least
offer a version of all your lines without the box).

Other spirits do just fine without the fancy box, it's just pure waste (apart
from perhaps whisky bought for gifts)

~~~
Arainach
Direct sunlight quickly (in a matter of a few weeks) affects both the color
and taste of whisky. The outer packaging serves a functional role.

~~~
thebean11
When would it really be in direct sunlight though? I'd imagine sitting on a
liquor store shelf wouldn't qualify unless it was in the window or something.

~~~
FlyMoreRockets
It's primarily the ultraviolet in sunlight that is damaging. Stores use
flourescent lighting in this part of the world, which still emits a fair
amount of UV, damaging the product sitting on a shelf. This is why beer in
green bottles often picks up a "skunky" flavor; green glass doesn't block UV
as well as brown and the UV reacts with the hop flavinoid molecules, changing
the flavor.

~~~
psychometry
Huh, I always figured that's just how Heineken tasted!

~~~
jccooper
Many beers traditionally packaged in clear or green bottles (like Heineken and
Mexican lagers) got "skunked" during shipment and consumers (especially in
export markets) came to recognize that as the taste of the beer. Today, they
get shipped to store more quickly and without much light exposure... so
they're deliberately skunked by the brewer to maintain the taste.

~~~
frandroid
I'm going to call [citation needed] on the deliberate skunking...

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jml7c5
Let's put on the skeptic cap, because "environmentally friendly" packaging is
rife with misleading statements. (For an example, the bottled water company
"Just Water" notes their plant-based, organic, environmentally friendly
packaging can be recycled, but they specifically avoid mentioning it cannot be
composted. They even fooled their own PR team.[1])

Pulpex site 'about' page: "NOT Pulp wrapped around plastic"

Pulpex site 'about' page: "NOT Pulp-infused into PET"

Pilot Lite press release: "...first ever 100% PET free paper-based spirits
bottle, made entirely from sustainably sourced wood."

Diageo press release: "...100% plastic free and expected to be fully
recyclable. The bottle is made from sustainably sourced pulp to meet food-safe
standards and will be fully recyclable in standard waste streams."

So it's not biodegradable or compostable, but it is recyclable. It doesn't use
"plastic", but some component of it presumably does not degrade. So for any
chemists: what wood derivative isn't _technically_ a plastic, but is
waterproof and does not decompose?

\----------------

[1]:
[https://twitter.com/JUST/status/1068686120995643392](https://twitter.com/JUST/status/1068686120995643392)

~~~
beenBoutIT
More than waterproof, to securely contain the ethanol in the whiskey it needs
to be solvent proof. Sounds like a fluoropolymer coating that isn't
technically considered plastic, although it could be glass or aluminum.

~~~
jml7c5
I think the lining has to be wood-based. The strongest "official" statement is
the Pilot Lite press release, and the phrase "bottle, made entirely from
sustainably sourced wood" seems too definite to weasel out of. Of course, it
is an industry that deals in contortion of language and meaning.

~~~
beenBoutIT
In that case the lining could be heat and pressure treated wood, something
along the lines of linoleum: [https://flaxcouncil.ca/flax-usage/industrial-
uses/what-is-li...](https://flaxcouncil.ca/flax-usage/industrial-uses/what-is-
linoleum/)

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catalogia
I believe when a 'bottle' is made out of paper, it's properly called a
'carton'. e.g. a 'carton of milk'

~~~
twic
I remember buying cartons of red wine in Italy in the mid '90s for a few
hundred lire a go. It was diabolically bad. Great days!

~~~
jfengel
They've started putting decent wines in boxes. There's nothing inherently
wrong with boxes, or screw tops, or plastic corks. They prevent further aging,
but that's just fine: the vast majority of wines are as good as they'll ever
get when they go into the bottle.

The mystique of ultra high-end wines aging for years requires careful
conditions, specific wine properties, and is still pretty hit-and miss. For
everything else, there's no reason not to package it for convenience rather
than tradition.

Boxes used to be used only for bad wines, and there's still plenty of bad wine
in boxes, but they've gotten good at making decent reliable wines for cheap.
Putting them in a box lowers costs, and it's very nice to be able to take out
one glass at a time.

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mNovak
I'll get ridiculed for this, but there's actually decent wine to be had in
cans now too. I wouldn't really drink it out of a can directly, but it's
pretty convenient sometimes to have a half bottle of wine, and not worry about
how to save the rest.

~~~
catalogia
Doesn't that impart an aluminum flavor? I've had seltzer water from cans and
it seems to have a noticeably metallic flavor compared to bottled seltzer
water (I don't notice a difference between plastic or glass bottles.)

~~~
mNovak
I think most cans have a plastic liner

~~~
frandroid
Resin*, but yeah

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black_puppydog
Wait... they're using plastic bottles right now?! The bottles I know are glass
+ metal top. perfect for recycling. Am I missing something?

Edit: lol okay I'm not the only one. So is it a marketing ploy then?

~~~
Frost1x
Aside from very large containers of cheaper of "mid tier" quality alcohols and
samplers, I've never seen a plastic bottle.

For scotch, I've never seen anything but glass and don't believe I'd buy
anything but glass.

Is there an advantage to paper recycling over glass? I know I've went through
the whole "recycle your own paper" project when I was a kid but nothing to the
level an industrial plant would likely do. I'm assuming energy requirements
may be the same? Paper seems like it might be more difficult in some cases.
Way out of my area of expertise.

~~~
pavon
I know our local waste department has had a very hard time finding anyone to
recycle the glass they collect. Some of it ends up crushed and tumbled to be
used for landscaping. But most of it is crushed and layered over the landfill
liner. That is technically recycling/reuse as I think something else like
gravel would be used otherwise, but it isn't what people expect when they
recycle their bottles.

I don't have any official information about what prevents it from being
recycled but I've heard word of mouth that transportation costs are a huge
factor if you don't already have glass production in your area. Also that
sorting is a big issue, as different glasses have different additives, and
need to be recycled separately but sorting is hard to do safely and cost
effectively.

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jey
What's the inside coating made of that doesn't get dissolved away by 40%
ethanol solution?

~~~
knodi123
yeah, my understanding was that most paper packaging these days was lined with
a very thin layer of plastic or foil.

but "pure paper" is what they're claiming... maybe there's a new tech? or
maybe they're doing that cheap marketing trick where you say "20% of the
package is made entirely out of nothing but 100% pure paper!"

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beenBoutIT
It could be something like a food-safe linoleum coating on the inside surface
of the cardboard bottle.

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himinlomax
> is fully recyclable

Glass if fully recyclable and reusable.

~~~
alexpotato
But is not biodegradable on shorter time scales.

e.g. a glass bottle in a woodland setting could stay in that form for
thousands of years. A paper bottle would last a few weeks at most.

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enkid
Is that really a big deal? Is that form actively harmful? After all, it's
mostly melted sand. Seems like it would be no worse than having a rock to me,
but I don't know enough to say that definitively.

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Xophmeister
A shard of glass would be sharp (dangerous to animals that are unfamiliar with
it) and could even focus sunlight to start a fire.

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raducu
Diageo, ah... the memories, it was nice writing software for them. Actually
the coleagues were nice, the software was shitty.

~~~
forgotmypw17
did you work for a CerTain agency in nyc? ))

~~~
raducu
No, I worked for a danish company that worked on very high value added
products and products with very high entry costs/moats so they tended to use
old technologies, but they delivered ok(ish) products in the end.

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kgwxd
I hate Johnnie Walker but I don't think I've ever seen it in a plastic bottle.
Isn't is usually glass?

~~~
rjsw
I'm guessing that bottles sold at airports might be plastic, to save weight
and for security reasons.

~~~
smachiz
I've never seen any Johnnie Walker airport bottles in plastic - at least not
full size.

I would bet they sell the mini bottles and pints in plastic - but their full
size bottles have been glass in every outlet I've seen them.

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forgotmypw17
Until stated otherwise, I'm going to assume these paper bottles will be
plastic-lined, like milk "cartons", and so just as non-biodegradeable and non-
recyclable.

Most of the time I've seen a switch from glass to plastic or "not plastic",
the real reason is to cut down on product loss due to glass breakage en route,
which is pretty big.

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SenHeng
In Japan, liqour is sold in milk cartons. Why doesn't the rest of the world do
so?

[https://i.imgur.com/dD0NB1A.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/dD0NB1A.jpg)

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ApolloFortyNine
Some liquor is sold in milk cartons.

Having been to Japan, I saw plenty of glass bottles in the liquor
stores/7/11s.

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dkdk8283
What a joke. Paper isn’t a suitable container for long term storage of liquid.
Paper straws are also a joke. I carry a big bundle of plastic straws in my car
now.

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fortran77
Is it better than glass!?

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ergwwrt
Yea and glass is recyclable too

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trekrich
whats wrong with glass? Its worked for years!

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082349872349872
> _... ramps up efforts to tackle plastic waste._

What kind of savage lets their alcohol touch plastic? ;-)

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twic
The kind of savage who drinks Johnnie Walker.

