
Adobe Donates Flex to Apache - instakill
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/244060/adobe_donates_flex_to_apache.html
======
simonsquiff
The real challenge is with enterprise applications that need a rich UI - this
is where Flex was a good solution. Saying "just use HTML5" is fine when you
serve the consumer space; it's not if you serve enterprises.

HTML5 is just not a go-er for enterprise products that need a rich UI. Even if
it could do everything Flex can (and it can't, yet), you need a modern
browser. Many enterprises still use IE6. I'd say 60% of our customers are on
IE6; and the remaining 40% use IE7. Demanding IE9 would make an enterprise
product dead in the water.

Flex fitted here. You have enterprises who say "no more client server,
everything should be web" but then don't give you the web platform to be able
to deliver the required user experience (i.e. you must use IE6/7). Flex let
you deliver on the web, with a rich UI, on legacy browsers.

So you had a choice:

\- Stay on client/server (lots of enterprises won't consider you)

\- Develop for HTML5 (not quite prime time, no-one can buy your product as
won't work on their browsers)

\- Dumb down the UI and deliver in IE6 (workable for some projects, but not
for many - some products really do need a rich UI. Especially not doable when
porting existing rich client/server app to being webbased - clients don't like
backwards steps on the UI)

\- Develop in Flex

So it's all well and good saying people yelled 'iceberg' but really you're
between a rock and a hard place, and even with this news I'm sure most Flex
enterprise developers would make the same decision again - because there
really weren't many alternatives.

~~~
dextorious
"""The real challenge is with enterprise applications that need a rich UI -
this is where Flex was a good solution. Saying "just use HTML5" is fine when
you serve the consumer space; it's not if you serve enterprises."""

I don't think there is anything that can't be done with HTML5 (the whole
stack, I mean), nowadays, and that Flex can do it. Especially since an
enterprise can dictate to it's users to use a capable modern browser.

There's plenty a full native solution can do that HTML5, but Flex ain't that,
and besides being limited it's also not that rich component-wise anyway.

~~~
untog
I don't think you've got the point- an enterprise _can_ dictate to it's users
to use a capable modern browser, but they won't. Mostly because they have
other legacy software which requires an old version of IE.

Or because they're lazy, but they don't like being confronted with the product
of their laziness, so if you tell them to upgrade their browsers then they
will go to a different company that'll use something like Flex.

~~~
acdha
Chrome Frame nicely addresses all of these concerns

------
swombat
If they'd done this 3 years ago and focused on building kick-ass Flex
development environments/authoring tools/etc, Flex would actually have been
worth donating at that point. Right now, this feels more like "Here's this
cat, I've had it for 10 years and I think it's dying (probably because it was
just run over). Take good care of it, thanks."

~~~
vlado
I'd say it's more like: "HTML is getting closer to what is possible with Flex,
so we have to concentrate on that. Flex will thrive as much as the community
wants it to. If the community wants it, it will develop it further, if not -
why should we?"

~~~
jarin
It's probably more fair to say that the HTML spec is getting closer to what is
possible with Flex. Browser support is a whole different issue.

------
shabda
Someone at twitter ..

Dumping projects to the Apache F. is the new convenient way to abandon
projects while saying "look, it's a good thing!"

~~~
nolok
Yes, once they decided to refocus on html 5 it would have been a whole lot
better for them to just dump flex and leave all its users without any support
whatsoever, especially since the apache fundation is forced to accept to take
charge of such projects even if they don't want to.

Mocking is easy, given the alternatives this is a quite a decent outcome.

~~~
davidw
> especially since the apache fundation is forced to accept to take charge of
> such projects even if they don't want to.

No, it isn't. Nothing says they (we) have to accept anything.

~~~
pquerna
We have a difficult time saying NO.

Right now, Adobe has not even submitted a proposal to the incubator -- just
blog posts about how they intend to submit it.

I eagerly await their submission of a Flex proposal. Part of the proposal, and
critical for Flex, is proving this isn't just a code dump. If it is a code
dump, I will vote -1, and I hope everyone else does too.

~~~
bstrand
What additional things would make the difference?

------
suprgeek
Many enterprise projects have invested big time in Flex. Now Adobe has
basically said "We are pulling out most of our full time resources and
_hoping_ that the ASF picks up the slack. HTML5 is the new hotness so move to
it"

This basically sucks for a lot of enterprises because like it or not : 1) HTML
5 is still evolving and maturing 2) Flex capabilities today are where HTML 5
will be in 1-2 years.

It feels like adobe could have managed this situation a lot better. Slowed
down Flex dev a little and accelerate HTML5 a lot. Provide kick-ass tools for
converting between the two (ala Google Swiffy but something that works much
better). Publish detailed guides on how to migrate - what works and what
doesn't with the migration, etc. Basically make the people who adopted your
tech feel that they are NOT being left high and dry.

~~~
melling
Sorry, stupidity has a price. People yelled "iceberg" and explained the issues
with Flash a couple of years ago. Now you've hit the iceberg. Read and try to
digest:

<http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/>

Yes, a very un-HN answer but I still see people stuck in IE6 because I
couldn't convince corporate lemmings that web software needed to run in
browsers other than IE6.

The web needs to run everywhere! It's not owned by one company.

~~~
beej71
Last I checked, the warnings about Flex were few and far between, and Flash is
still very much alive and well. This is not the iceberg you are looking for.

~~~
acdha
I've seen plenty of people point to the single-source vendor as a major
concern. Given Adobe's failure to competitively maintain any platform they've
acquired most people I know were careful not to put too much trust in
something which could be discontinued at any point.

------
taylorbuley
Do software companies get tax writeoffs for donating software projects in
which they've incurred significant development expenses?

~~~
mqqq
I imagine they would if the project itself is still worth something and they
are donating to a non-profit.

~~~
lotu
A more interesting question would be how do you evaluate how much you get to
write off you taxes? Adobe is donating presumably because they believe the
current value of it is low, but just as easily they could argue that as a
mature platform it is worth hundreds of millions.

------
johnyzee
There is a lot of talk about the consequences for Flash of these recent
announcements, but little attention is given to what this will mean for HTML5
adoption.

I, for one, am very excited. If Adobe can do for HTML5 half of what they have
done with the Flash toolchain then we are going to see a powerful platform
indeed, and sooner than anyone would have dared hope until recently.

A Flash-like animation environment and a Flex UI toolkit, all outputting to
canvas? Sign me the hell up right now.

------
vineet
Adobe should have done this before the negative news (them announcing that
flash on mobile is not going to be supported).

~~~
dreur
I do not agree. I believe they did the right thing, now Apache has everything
they need to take their decision. That Flex will be less and less supported by
Adobe in the years/months to come so they'll probably need to put more
resources on the project.

Doing it before would have been wrong and not well received by anyone.

~~~
vineet
My point was that I believe that Flex would have built a larger community of
supporters had they open sourced it first.

------
melling
This does guarantee that the tools will live on. Adobe has already moved many
resources to their Html5 tools. They are taking a lot of heat now but they are
focusing on a much larger market and it will look like a great move in 3
years.

------
johnx123-up
I'm now worried about the _future_ of Apache... Will all abandoned projects go
there?

~~~
bad_user
I don't get this complaint. That's part of the awesomeness that comes with
open-source.

Dying projects can be brought to life if you find a usage for them. For
example, Blender (<http://www.blender.org>) was dumped by a dying company and
brought to life again by enthusiasts.

Why? Because they could. Projects, even when abandoned, are still valuable.

Now, the real problem with Flex and the reason why Flex will probably die is
not abandonment. Flex may die because it sits on top of a proprietary plugin.
That's the real jewel that should be open-sourced before it is too late.

And yet another reason why people may not be interested in an open-sourced
Flex ... Flex has competition that can compile to Flash AND Javascript:
<http://openlaszlo.org/>

~~~
Sandman
You do realize that Flex already _is_ open source?[1]

About OpenLaszlo... I thought that it could become important one day; however,
this never happened. I haven't looked into OL for quite some time now, but
what can it offer that you can't get with HTML 5 nowadays?

[1] <http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk/Legal+Stuff>

------
jbverschoor
Read: Adobe abandons flex

~~~
mchaize
Hi, I work for Adobe as a Flex expert, and here's my point of view. Well,
actually I think that first Adobe needed to start with a "product" strategy.
Flex was the first RIA technology, and it's still the leading RIA technology
of the market. Adobe had to innovate, experimenting new features every year
and getting the community excited. That's what generates adoption. Now that
the Flex SDK is very mature, it can answer almost all Enterprise needs. It's
time to let the community and the customers drive the decisions with Adobe
about the future of Flex. Flex masters want to actively contribute to the
framework for years. Now there is an opportunity to install Flex as a standard
Enteprise RIA stack. Adobe is not only proposing Flex to Apache, Adobe is also
proposing BlazeDS, Falcon, FalconJS, and will share all the work already done
on Flex 5 components. Details are here:
[http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/articles/flex-
announcements...](http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/articles/flex-
announcements.html)

~~~
robmcm
More of a worry is the fact Flex is dependent on the Flash player which as of
yet has not been opensourced.

A headless player is holding back CI in a big way.

I also can't see FalconJS delivering a full flex stack without help from the
browsers. A lot could be rendered in a canvas, but then you get into
situations where you need stage text etc...

I just wish Adobe had a simular JS environment to announce at the same time,
or slightly before. At least then there would be a migration path. Currently
Flex devs are trying to find a simular enterprise RIA platform, and none of
them are owned by Adobe.

~~~
joelhooks
Flex has a dependency on the Flash player, but that doesn't have to be the
case. As an ASF project, that dependency can (and likely will need to be)
broken.

------
EdwardQ
But is there enough incentive to make Apache, jump on it ?

