
Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE - duxup
https://www.npr.org/2019/04/05/710137783/motel-6-to-pay-12-million-after-improperly-giving-guest-lists-to-ice
======
nostromo
This is... strange.

When the federal government comes asking for your help, I think it's pretty
normal for people to provide that help.

In a just world, if the government asks for something inappropriately, then
the party at fault is the government. (In other words, Washington should sue
ICE, not Motel 6.)

If we want companies to require a subpoena to share information with the
federal government (and personally _I do want that_ ) then we should set that
standard in law. And we should enforce it fairly, not based on the hot
political topic of the day. (How much information does the CIA and FBI vacuum
up from Washington telcos in a day in violation of this law, and why isn't
anyone held to task? Maybe because they have better lawyers than Motel 6.)

Helping the federal government do its job and then getting sued by the state
seems like mom getting mad at you for doing what dad asked you to.

~~~
code_duck
Isn’t it your duty to protect the privacy of your data and your customers
regardless of who is requesting data? I thought companies like Twitter and
Google routinely rebuffed requests for information from government agencies
and opposed restrictive rules, e.g. in China, and are praised for it. The
concept of resisting government requests for information is well established.

If the police called and asked for my customer list, I’d check whether they
had that authority and many other issues before turning it over. I think we
had an article on here earlier about ‘second order thinking’ that would cover
that... getting an invasive request from the government, and fulfilling it
regardless of consequences because you want to ‘help’ or consider them to be
like Mom and Dad is first order thinking.

I’m no expert, but it seems increasingly common to have state laws that oppose
or are stricter than federal laws, and you do have to be aware of all laws for
your jurisdiction down to the county and city. Especially in any voluntary
action, you have to consider whether it violates other laws or duties, and if
they weren’t legally compelled to do this t was voluntary.

~~~
bloudermilk
> The concept of resisting government requests for information is well
> established.

Well established for whom? For many poor Americans, the thought of resisting a
local PD seems impossible, let alone a federal agent who comes knocking. Try
to imagine being on your night shift at a rural Motel 6 when a few strange
individuals start waving badges, making requests, maybe threatening to
escalate things if you don't play along. Maybe you would have the courage to
stand up to them, but I think a lot of people would fall to the pressure and
abide by the request. One big difference is privilege.

I believe ICE should be responsible for illegally attaining this information.
They should also bear the cost of educating the Motel 6 workforce on their
rights to resist requests from law enforcement agencies.

~~~
code_duck
Well established for companies who safeguard vast amounts of consumer data
such as google and twitter, as I said.

Right, ‘The hotel said at the time that the practice was implemented "at the
local level without the knowledge of senior management."‘

Obviously, if you are working at a motel and law enforcement enters and start
demanding things, you -contact your supervisors-. Not sure how ‘privilege’ is
involved, other than having the education or training to understand this. It’s
possible that the individuals involved at the motel were not coerced and
participated enthusiastically.

Of course ICE should also be obligated to follow the law and not encourage
others to break it. However, it’s up to Motel 6 to train their employees,
protect customers’ privacy and enforce their own policies.

~~~
nojvek
It’s hard to keep up with laws. ICE is very much a bully, just like TSA is.
They can make your life miserable for a while until you get yourself a lawyer
(which most people can’t afford, and can’t lose time).

But then who’s gonna police the police ?

~~~
code_duck
It would be interesting to know how ICE obtained it. Did they, in fact,
threaten or trick the motel staff or management? I would think that the staff
is not personally in legal jeopardy from refusing to comply. I think most
people would know that, too. Passing it on to higher-ups would surely be
proper corporate protocol, and wouldn’t they be the ones to suffer legal
jeopardy or harassment, not Joe Night Clerk?

Edit: checked into this. An older story has more details
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-
nation/wp/2018/01/0...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-
nation/wp/2018/01/03/motel-6-gave-guest-lists-to-ice-agents-looking-for-
latino-sounding-names-lawsuit-alleges/)

“ICE agents, who are tasked with arresting people who are not legal residents
for deportation, would be given a guest list from the hotel’s receptionist,
along with a form to sign confirming the lists’ receipt. The roster included
information such as guests’ driver’s license number, room number, date of
birth and license plate number.”

an article linked within the earlier one says even more.
[https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/motel-6-calling-ice-
und...](https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/motel-6-calling-ice-undocumented-
guests-phoenix-immigration-lawyers-9683244) It appears to be a voluntary
practice and they may even sell/be compensated for the list by ICE.

------
bradlys
Why would ICE run "latino-sounding" names through and not just _all_ names
through whatever ICE database they're cross-referencing? Did they get a 10,000
page print out instead of a spreadsheet file? (why not Scan + OCR + cross
reference with database - would be way faster)

Just seems like ICE employees are only targeting latinos... intentionally. And
that's the most bothering part of this to me. We're cool with Swedes
overstaying their welcome...

~~~
KorematsuFred
Well anyone who has dealt with ICE, Border Patrol this does not even remotely
surprise me. I had a French-American friend who went to France without his
daughter's American passport. When he returned back the Agent did not even ask
to see the little girls passport.

Had this guy been Latino he would be called a child smuggler.

~~~
nraynaud
Strange stuff happens when exiting France when you're not white too. I was in
line at the exit control, and the black family ahead of me had issues because
they couldn't provide the passport they entered the country with (they came
for renewal of their French passport, the Prefecture had it, they were exiting
on their Canadian passport). I was completely baffled at the policeman
harassing freaking Canadian citizens exiting the country.

~~~
timdev2
The passport control officers were probably upset/suspicious because they
couldn't establish when the family entered the country (or schengen zone), and
thus couldn't confirm that they hadn't overstayed.

From the officer's perspective, here's this Canadian with no entry stamp in
their passport. One would assume that the usual procedure for expats to renew
their passport is to do it through the embassy or consulate in their country
of residence.

------
shawnz
> "Motel 6's actions tore families apart and violated the privacy rights of
> tens of thousands of Washingtonians,"

What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart. Why
aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a
warrant? Maybe the Motel 6 employees who wrongfully gave the data felt
pressured, given that ICE is a government agency just like the DOJ?

~~~
mey
How was it illegal for ICE to request the data? It certainly wasn't ethical,
but what is right and what is legal are not the same thing. Hell it sounds
like the only law broken according to the article was a Washington State
consumer protection law. Hence the settlement is against Motel 6 and not
against ICE.

~~~
bredren
Part of the trouble is ICE's "requests" are not always purported as requests.

See recent attempt in New York by ICE agent that he had a legally enforceable
warrant and that his goal of detaining a vehicle occupant was not simply a
request. [1]

The ICE officer in this case even quotes a statute that implied the driver
might face penalties for not complying with the officer's demands.

Given this behavior, I wonder what the Washington state ICE agents'
conversations with the motel employees were like.

This is not the only concerning incident with ICE in Washington state,
recently ICE officers boarded a Greyhound bus and demanded a Portland-based
comedian and grantee of legal US asylum come off the bus and forced him to
show papers. [2]

This one struck home for me because I had seen one of this comedian's
performances (an act which includes discussion of race and nationalism issues)
not far from where I live a week prior.

The pattern of behavior from ICE is deeply upsetting.

[1] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/03/29/an-
activist...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/03/29/an-activist-
used-legal-argument-stop-an-ice-arrest-he-says-others-should-do-
same/?utm_term=.b1ddb0db433d)

[2] [https://www.oregonlive.com/today/2019/01/portland-
comedian-s...](https://www.oregonlive.com/today/2019/01/portland-comedian-
stopped-by-border-patrol-says-he-felt-dehumanized.html)

~~~
gamblor956
If ICE had compelled Motel 6 to hand over the lists, that would be a very
different thing and we would be having a very different conversation.

But that's not what happened, and let's not pretend like that is what
happened.

ICE asked nicely, expecting to be turned down by Motel 6 like most other hotel
chains did. But Motel 6 went along with the request _without any sort of
coercion_ and in fact in violation of local consumer protection laws
prohibiting such data release absent a countervailing legal requirement (such
as a subpoena) requiring them to turn over such information.

~~~
Frondo
Do we know how ICE asked for these records? Because, from everything else I've
ever seen about law enforcement making such requests, there's nothing nice
about it, and there's everything coercive about it.

And it's a scary kind of coercion because they do have the force of the state
backing them up, in a way that plays on our built-in desire to please
authority, built-in desire to not rock the boat, and built-in fear of
consequences of the crushing weight of the state pummeling down on us.

People generally regard law enforcement with a mix of fear and antipathy,
because we know that, despite the checks and balances that exist, they can
ruin lives and face no consequence for doing so.

So when ICE comes and asks, however nicely they may actually phrase it (though
I don't expect they said "please" and "thank you,"), they're also coming at
these hoteliers with a very big stick.

It's just shitty that the hoteliers did, in fact, cave and hand over this
data.

~~~
oasisbob
This isn't like it was just people caving to law enforcement in the moment, it
was codified Motel 6 policy:

> 4.3 ICE's usual practice was to come to Motel 6's reception desk and request
> the guest list from the receptionist. The receptionist would print out the
> guest list and give it to the ICE agent, along with a "law enforcement
> acknowledgment form" for the agent to sign, acknowledging receipt of the
> guest list. The ICE agent would review the guest list and identify
> individuals of interest to ICE.

~~~
shawnz
This could just mean that it was the management that was pressured and not the
receptionists.

I just don't see any other reason why they might willingly endanger their
business and customers for absolutely no benefit to themselves, besides
governmental pressure.

~~~
gamblor956
Please do some more research before you keep throwing out hypothetical
complaints about something that didn't happen.

Motel 6 didn't just go along with ICE's request, per the complaint, Motel6
actually trained their employees to turn over such information even before ICE
came calling.

The reason? Motel 6 is owned by the Blackstone Group. Most of the directors
and executives of the Blackstone Group are die-hard Trump supporters and have
espoused hard-line views on immigration. The benefit to themselves was
supporting their president's policies.

~~~
shawnz
> The benefit to themselves was supporting their president's policies.

Interesting, well if that was the motive then I certainly can't have any
sympathy for Motel 6 here. But I still believe that it is unfair for ICE to go
without penalty, whether or not the law addresses this situation.

> per the complaint, Motel6 actually trained their employees to turn over such
> information even before ICE came calling.

It's not clear to me from the complaint that Motel 6 trained their employees
as such prior to any communication from ICE. Your explanation regarding their
republican alignment does make sense, but I'm not sure this specific point is
accurate.

> Please do some more research before you keep throwing out hypothetical
> complaints about something that didn't happen.

This is a forum for discussion. It's not Snopes. I just want to share my
layperson's opinions and also hear your (and others) expert feedback about
them. By the way, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comments.

------
anon4lol
Selling you minute by minute geolocation from your phone: Acceptable. Credit
card companies and retail companies selling your purchasing history:
Acceptable. States selling license data and even your license photo:
Acceptable. Municipalities selling property tax information to anyone:
Acceptable. Unicorn companies monitoring your every move and everything you do
on the internet: Acceptable.

Motel 6 employees giving registration information to law enforcement for free:
NOT OK.

------
jaclaz
Only as a data point for comparison, here in Italy (due to a Law originally
established in the '70's for counter-terrorism purposes) when you check in (in
a hotel, B&B and similar[0]) you need a valid document and you are registered
(name, surname, date and place of birth, current address and type and number
of document) and this info is sent (nowadays electronically) to the Police
within 24 hours.

[0] a recent extension to the Law now requires the same also for the "short
rentals" which then include also all AirBnb and similar

~~~
tptacek
Yeah, we're ostensibly not big on that kind of surveillance here.

~~~
idlewords
We run it unregulated in the private sector instead.

------
paxy
I can't believe the number of people who are defending Motel 6 here. Anyone
who works for a mid-large sized company in certain departments will know that
government agencies and police departments are _always_ asking for stuff. It
is not illegal for them to do so. The correct answer to 99% of these requests
is "this is confidential/proprietary information" or "come back with a
warrant". There is zero excuse to do anything illegal because someone
official-sounding asked you to do it.

~~~
nullc
It is the norm in many industries to cooperate with any law enforcement
request received. In some, doing so is the only way to avoid being named a
defendant in your customer's unlawful actions (or being hit with fines for
violating an endless list of regulations that are violated by everyone in your
industry and effectively impossible to not violate).

So you may be seeing some amount of guilty consciences here...

------
linuxdude314
I'm really surprised at the amount of people defending the actions of ICE and
Motel 6 in this instance. ICE has clearly demonstrated tactics that are anti-
immigrant (legal or otherwise).

How quick some are to forget the importance of immigration in the startup
community!

~~~
toomuchtodo
You can support immigration in the startup community but not support illegal
immigration. Of course ICE is going to target illegal immigrants; it’s part of
their mandate. This doesn’t excuse ICE exceeding their authority, which
requires a patch via legislation.

China, India, Canada, and Mexico (countries with large populations and those
that border the US) would all give me the boot if I tried to illegally
immigrate there (and rightfully so). Sovereignty and the rule of law are
important.

------
test6554
I can see a day where every guest of every hotel in every country is
photographed and submitted to the government for things like warrants and visa
status. It could happen seamlessly at check in rather than randomly pulling
records in bulk after the fact.

~~~
arcticbull
Something similar happens in China already. Any place you stay as a visitor
(whether a hotel or a guest house) your passport is scanned and submitted to
the police. If you don't check in within 24 hours, they may come looking for
you.

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pnutjam
Good, hopefully this deters others

~~~
matt4077
I, too, hope this will deter other companies from illegally handing over the
customers‘ data for frivolous fishing expeditions by law enforcement.

~~~
throwaway287391
Is GP getting downvoted because we're assuming this isn't what they meant?

~~~
matt4077
That was my reading of it, but on second thought it’s almost perfectly
ambiguous.

There’s a certain glibness about it that fits better with the malevolent
interpretation. Plus hoping for a fine to serve as an example seems just too
obvious to merit writing it down?

It’s almost a work of art. Or maybe a Rorschach test. Will the internet
interpret your statements in the best or worst possible light?

------
SamReidHughes
> Motel 6 also has signed a legally binding commitment to no longer share
> guest information without a warrant at any of its locations nationwide

That’s convenient. They’ve made other agreements with police departments to
provide guest information at particular locations. This sounds like a way to
prevent being subject to such shenanigans.

------
wybiral
Putting aside the fact that companies can definitely challenge these
requests... What tech stack is ICE storing and managing all of this data with
that companies keep handing over to them?

------
speedgeek
$12M plus roughly a few hundred since I will never ever stay in a Motel 6 or
invest in anything Blackstone Group ever again. Even if they leave every
freaking light on.

------
wl
This settlement seems grossly inappropriate. It seems very likely that this
practice, which lead to deportations, caused far more than $12 million in
damages.

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zelon88
The government told Motel 6 to comply with a request and then the government
sues Motel 6 for complying with the request.

Sounds like par for the course to me!

