
Ask HN: Is there any market for creative coders? - Banekin
I'm a sophomore in high school at the moment, and have been thinking about the future quite a bit. I decided to take up Processing, because I find visual feedback is helpful in being motivated to learn programming. It can produce beautiful images and interactions with very little code, and it's a lot of fun to work with. In your experience, do you think there is any market for creative coders? What would art buyers think about art that is created with a computer? Is it a gimmick, or an evolving medium with lots of potential? I would love to hear your thoughts, and thanks in advance.
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thesystemis
There is a market for creative coders -- I am one, and I make a living making
art through code.

I'd recommend you check out media art festivals to get a feeling for the
intersection of art and technology -- the biggest ones are in europe and asia.
See for example, ars electronica, Dutch Electronic Arts Festival,
FutureEverything, Sonar, OFFF, Transmediale, etc. You can get a feeling for
the current state of media art. In the US, see Zero One, Eyebeam, Rhizome.

I have a background as an artist, got into writing code, and now teach
programming to artists / designers at a design university, Parsons School of
Design. The media arts field is getting bigger and more accepted, and although
it's much harder to collect then say a painting, there's definitely a way to
make a living doing this kind of work -- I do, and many of my friends do also.
We typically do a few commercial projects a year and make more experimental
work as well. Between that, commissions, teaching, workshops, talks, etc you
can certainly make a living doing this kind of work.

petervandijck is right - make some interesting work and make a name for
yourself. especially within communities like processing, it's not hard to get
involved and get a good reputation, find collaborators and get feedback.

you can see some of the work I do in my profile. happy to answer any more
specifics about the marketplace.

~~~
enjalot
How does the market break down? How much of your commercial projects are
performance based? installations? producing video to be streamed/aired later?

I'm working on Blender and looking to get more into the 3D and AR space. It
would be good to know whats in demand now, and what kind of demand new tech is
going to create.

btw I'm learning OpenCL and a while back I saw that OF was experimenting with
it, is that still happening?

~~~
thesystemis
I do a few freelance jobs -- things like:

<http://www.vimeo.com/5233789> <http://www.vimeo.com/8525186>

they are either events (outdoor projection) or for performances / online
videos. Usually are 1-3 weeks of coding solo or in a group, and tons of
organization / planning time.

in terms of opencl, I think Memo is pushing that pretty far -- see for
example:

[http://www.memo.tv/opencl_particles_at_okgos_design_miami_20...](http://www.memo.tv/opencl_particles_at_okgos_design_miami_2009_gig)

I think markerless AR is going to be big soon -- the work from EPFL come to
mind, such as:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZOeRhQdew8>

the other thing which is huge is kinect -- this pretty much changes the game
for interaction, and you can see some great work being done by artists and
hackers within the community with it:

<http://www.creativeapplications.net/kinect/>

------
jamesbritt
Storage has become cheap, CPU speeds fast. People are acquire larger and
larger data sets, but the increase in size and greater diversity in what can
be stored makes it harder to get a grip on what, exactly, is there, and what
does it (possibly) mean.

Data visualization can make the difference. Using R and Processing, for
example, you can turn a bazillion spreadsheet numbers into a compelling visual
(or audio) experience that provides insight and discoveries.

There's real commercial value in that. Is it art? Well, if not, it's damn
close, and what you learn providing a commercial service can be applied to
creating purely aesthetic work.

As for what art buyer might think of computer art?

<http://artport.whitney.org/>

It's real and it's big time.

Go for it.

~~~
nailer
> As for what art buyer might think of computer art?

Paul Smith already stole someone's Processing output for a rather successful
scarf print.

------
hluska
When I was a sophomore in high school, I was so focused on making money that I
let several passions slip through my fingers. I could have learned to speak
French fluently. Or, I could have spent my time studying physics simply for
the love of it. Rather, I devoted myself to becoming the best young accountant
I could because at that point, I thought getting my CA/MBA was a sure fire
path to the corner office and the mythical big bonuses.

Nearly 20 years later and I am not an accountant. I didn't have any passion
for the field, so my career fizzled out during University. Looking back, I
wish I would have focused on what I was passionate about because I would have
gained solid skills doing something I thought was fun.

Sorry this doesn't really answer your question, but if I could be in your
shoes again, I would blindly follow my passion. Making money often flows
naturally from passion. But even if it doesn't, you won't be sitting in your
mid-30s asking, "what if?"

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jnhasty
I work for a nearly 15 yr old art + technology organization based in an nyc
contemporary art museum, and I assure you this type of work is far from a
gimmick. There's an extremely rich history here and the art market is taking
notice, though it's been a slow process. Many young artists working nowadays
make artworks with presumptions born from digital technologies built-in, so by
the time you reach your early twenties I hope/imagine the art world in general
will have a different material and cultural landscape where art that
incorporates digital technology isn't considered niche or a fetish or all
lumped together into one category, but considered simply a reflection of the
state of the world in which we live.

Honestly, if you're an artist working in ANY medium nowadays you're probably
not living solely off the income generated by your artwork. But these skills
can certainly contribute to a day job.;)

We have, however, successfully sold or helped sell non-material/purely code-
based artworks many times.

Check out this wonderful new book by Casey Reas and Chandler McWilliams for
more on the historical context:

<http://formandcode.com/>

[http://www.amazon.com/Form-Code-Design-Architecture-
Briefs/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Form-Code-Design-Architecture-
Briefs/dp/1568989377/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292087916&sr=8-1-spell)

And check out Rhizome for a perspective on contemporary digital/new
media/internet art.

<http://rhizome.org/>

Good luck!

------
sudont
It’s still a niche market. There’s been some success for Algorithmic art, but
it’s not as if Jared Tarbell will be in MoMA tomorrow. It still needs to prove
itself. The best place if you want to sell out and make money would be to do
something dumb and fun for an iPhone. Brian Eno’s Bloom and Justin Oulette’s
Sharps are good examples of what you can do with a touchscreen and a basketful
of APIs.

More importantly I would suggest the Arduino, it can interact with Processing
and allows you to control physical objects with your code. Carlos Amorales,
the mexican artist, works primarily in digital forms, but only sells his work
printed intaglio; the art world still prizes _physical originals._ Hopefully
this isn’t a disappointment to you.

If you’re willing to use your code as _part_ of an installation, you’ll have
much more success than just trying to sell the digital files. I’m an
experienced lithographer, and can give some advice if you’re interested in
printing your creations. (Remember, physical originals.)

But, remember. You’re a _sophomore_ and thinking of your future, that’s
amazingly precocious (in the best way). Don’t get too worried yet!

~~~
Banekin
Arduino seems really interesting, I'll have to check that out, thanks a ton.

It seems backwards that an artist has to produce something physical for it to
be valuable, but I have no problem doing that if it's necessary. If I were to
make prints like you said, do you think slight differences in the same idea
would be justification for a higher price? For instance, put some random
properties into a visualization, and churn out 1000 copies of that, so each
one is relatively unique. Do you think that would be viable?

~~~
sudont
Well, that’s the art world for you. Ideas and execution are equally
intertwined, executing good ideas means you’re not just some bum. But, an
edition is especially infuriating for anyone who knows what github is.

Since artist originality is prized, anything “churned” out would be considered
bad taste at best, and an exercise in money grubbing at worst. I’m not exactly
sure how well a giclée monoprint would sell, especially in a very large
edition. Better yet would be to set up two plates: one that is common between
the prints, and then another where you add the random visualization. That’s a
monotype (commonality), rather than a monoprint.

As you’re just getting into producing art, I’d say keep your editions low,
around 10-30 to start. You’ve heard the parable of grading the ceramics class,
right? The professor divided the students into two groups. [a] was graded on
the raw volume of pots produced, 50 was a C, 100 was an A. [b] was graded on
the quality of their final pot. A perfect pot was an A+. On the final day, the
[a] students actually had all of the best pots, as [b] students wasted their
time dreaming up the “perfect” pot instead of practicing.

------
petervandijck
Potential. Here's a typical path:

1\. Make some awesome visualisations. Put them online. Get known.

2\. Get job offers or add these things to your resume.

3\. Land jobs where you can (somewhat) use these (quite unique) skills.

I wouldn't worry too much about making money directly from this. That's a
whole other ballgame.

~~~
Banekin
That's ideally what I'd like to do. Thanks, I'll be working towards that.

------
tedkimble
I'm now finishing my masters degree in architecture (undergrad was physics of
the liberal arts variety) and spend nearly every day coding. Processing is a
great environment, although architects increasingly prefer the Grasshopper
add-on to Rhino (<http://www.grasshopper3d.com/>). I'm also working on my own
Grasshopper/Processing/CAD library in Ruby.

If you're looking to improve your design skills, try breaking out of an
exclusively digital environment and code something that you can lasercut or
physically build in some way. Setup a feedback loop between the two mediums --
let your coding inform your physical product, and vice-versa. Use code to
solve problems (or create art) in a variety of fields and mediums.

Creative coding is most definitely not a gimmick. But it must have direction.
Art that is, or is influenced by, programming is not inherently better or
worse than a painting that uses paint. It is your job to have a design
philosophy and explore the limitations and capacities of creative coding. Only
then will you stop thinking of creative coding as a gimmick.

------
aiurtourist
Artsy programmers? Computer-generated art? Only a sophomore? That sounds
familiar.

I am and was in a similar situation, but my focus was in music. I was an avid
musician in high school and I wanted to dual-major in Computer Science and
some kind of music technology. My dream was to go write music software for
Propellerheads in Stockholm.

What happened, I found, was that I was a much better programmer than artist.
And what's worse was, because I focused a lot my non-computer interests in
college, I missed learning a lot of background that I really, really wish I
had now — (e.g., advanced operating systems, advanced algorithms, and
electrical engineering).

My point is this: You're on this forum and you're already a coder, so focus on
getting that Computer Science degree. Since you're interested in visual stuff,
a minor concentration in computer graphics or human-computer interaction is
applicable. But make sure you learn the hard stuff because, once you do,
you'll have strong fundamentals which will let you work on anything and for
anyone you want. You won't have to struggle with being an in-betweener like
me.

~~~
fatso784
Cannot agree more. Learning the tools is the only real challenge. Once you
have sufficient background knowledge in CS, you understand more of the
possibilities that your creative juices can draw from.

I'm currently a joint CS/Fine Art major at Concordia University in Montreal
(<http://computationarts.concordia.ca/>). Even though I could have went to a
more "prestigious" university, they didn't have a program in creative
computation. Don't get stuck in a boring typical CS curriculum. Every
professor I meet in the program has been incredibly enthusiastic about what
they do, and best of all, since it is a niche program compared to the size of
the university, getting time to talk and know your professors is considerably
easy.

As far as user-centric design goes: Most of the HCI design stuff can be picked
up by just reading books on it. The more you know about human
psychology/sociology and its applications to computer interaction the better.

------
gmurphy
I did it for fun for many years - had my work exhibited and in books, got to
travel around the world, and met interesting people. Then it turned out I was
doing it because my day job was so unsatisfying - as soon as I got a job at
Google, my 'artistic' output dropped to zero.

However, the stuff I learned while doing it was invaluable - I maintain that
the best designers can code, and the best type of code they can write is
visual interface code - being able to clearly describe animated sequences in
code (motion curves, costs of different effects) makes communicating your
design that much easier, and helps you polish the working product to your
exacting specifications.

Stop thinking of it as a career path, and more as a highly-useful method of
expressing yourself, then let it take you where it takes you - the market for
visual effects programming might be unpredictable, but the market for coders
who have the drive to learn how to do anything in order to achieve a specific
and detailed aim is huge.

------
lwhi
Art and code are definitely compatible, and there is certainly a market for
digitally curated / created art.

If you want to create art, spend time exploring and educating yourself. Learn
what you like, what you find interesting and what you feel is worth exploring.

There are quite a few people who seem to be making money in these fields, via
commissioned works - one that spring to mind is Robert Hodgin [1]/[2].

There are also galleries which specialise in 'digital art'. I know of one in
particular in Berlin [3].

There are blogs which cover digital and emerging forms of art. [4] [5]

I've only just scratched the surface .. there's a LOT that's definitely worth
exploring.

[1] <http://www.flight404.com/>

[2] <http://roberthodgin.com/>

[3] <http://dam-berlin.de/>

[4] <http://www.vvork.com/>

[5] <http://we-make-money-not-art.com/>

------
j2d2j2d2
Creative coders belong in the startup world. No two ways about it. Corporate
culture can't gain maximum efficiency by leaving people with space to let
their minds wander. Startups, however, as based entirely on how good a product
is so minds wandering is essential, especially if they wander in herds.

Try starting a company. You'll love the experience of no one telling you what
to do.

------
tezza
I do a lot of what you seem to describe as Creative programming.

.

1) Film Special Effects - Someone has to animate 10K orcs in battle

2) Video Titling / Sweep FX - Someone has to write cool fade in effects

.

3) Straight up hacker style art:

See the inspirational Jürg Lehni:

. <http://www.scratchdisk.com/Work/Hektor/Will-Morris.jpg/> \- a motorized
realtime graffiti plotter, based on robotics and his scriptographer coding

. <http://www.scratchdisk.com/Work/> \- awesome examples

. <http://scriptographer.org/gallery/> \- more awesome examples with Jürg's
scriptographer plugin

.

There are many more avenues to code with graphics and get paid

------
cageface
I saw Brian Eno talk years ago and he said he thinks we've used computers for
the wrong things. He argued that instead of using computers to plow through
piles of data to arrive at uninteresting results we should emphasize the
ability of computers to generate surprising results from very small seeds of
data. Examples of this would be fractals, algorithmic music etc.

There are a fair number of people working on algorithmic & procedural art but
a lot of it is pretty dry. If you can find a way to use a computer to create
something that really moves people you can probably find a market.

~~~
Banekin
Brian Eno is amazing, and I completely agree with him on all of those points.
Maybe programming or math in general scares away artists, but I think there's
a lot of untapped value in computers artistically speaking.

------
binarymax
I have had some success in the field, but honestly mostly as a lever to
"professional" projects. I started with mathematical imagery and became more
conceptual. Very little of my work is public but mostly because it is
commission.

It is most certainly not a gimmick if done properly. Fractals and other things
are gimmicky but I have moved away from that.

The best way honestly, is find something interesting and profound. Something
that blows your mind. Use the maximum resources you have. Do something huge.
If it's good you'll get noticed by the right people.

------
jchrisa
You should check out this program at NYU. I have a friend there, its probably
a good fit for you: <http://itp.nyu.edu/itp/>

------
loyaltyspace
Not exactly what you are looking for, but it's still a rare and very valuable
person who sits between front end designer and developer, equally at home in
Photoshop and an IDE.

This is going to be massive over the next few years with web, mobile, tablets,
internet TV, paid content etc. Interactive consumer and media experiences.

It's not art as you described, but imagine it would scratch the creative itch
and keep you gainfully employed!

------
Breefield
Joshua Davis indirectly pioneered this "design by code" mentality in my
opinion. <http://www.joshuadavis.com/>

Cool guy, cool work, you should check him out. He's done work for BMW, Kanye
West, Motorola, Nike, Volkswagen, HBO, etc.

There's certainly a place in the world for people who design by code. Just
don't go too deep before gaining a core, functional skillet.

------
chipsy
Is "fine arts" or "live coding" necessarily implied? Millions of people have
bought computer art, once you include games and related interactive media.
Although the audiovisual elements are very strong today, interactivity remains
one of the best and earliest creative uses of the computer.

It's really a matter of whether you've made something awesome or not, and then
how you choose to position it.

------
adw
If you're good at data and visualization, and you've got a creative streak,
_the world is yours_. The entire future information economy sits right at the
intersection of art, design and heavyweight statistics.

(Don't drop your stats and English literature classes – they'll be more useful
than you think.)

Go for it. And in a few years, when you're looking for an internship in the
UK, drop me a line...

------
pan69
When you say "market" I assume you want to make a living out of doing this. If
this is the case then this is the strategy I would advice:

You're currently a sophomore in high school with probably zero work
experience. This means that for the next 5 to 10 years you need to start
making a name for yourself. You need to become that guy who creates awesome
stuff. Few examples of these sorts of people are Dr Doob (mrdoob.com), Andre
Michelle (lab.andre-michelle.com) & Grant Skinner (incomplet.gskinner.com).
These are guys who made their name in the Flash platform scene over the past 5
to 10 years. They do visual experimentation but they way they make their money
is but working for digital advertising agencies.

Now depending on where you live, get your self a junior role at a "large"
digital adverting agency and work there for the next 2 or 3 years. I emphasis
large because it's important and will come back on this later. Focus on things
such as HTML5, Javascript and mobile, or anything front-end that is in
fashion, because those are the technologies these guys will be using for their
clients. They will tell you that Processing is cool and all that but no client
will pay for that. At least not in your current position. Now, work your ass
off for say 3 years and learn as much as you can. Next to that get to know as
many people as you can. Getting to know people is key! And also the reason you
need to work in a large agency, there are simply more people there to get to
know. Build your network. This means you need to hang out with them in the pub
etc. Be really social. Become part of the in-crowed. While you work there
other people will leave the agency, stay in touch with them! You might need
them later on in live. Though, be genuine about your relationship with others!

After three 2 or 3 years you might want to swap agencies, go work for another
big one. Do good work, do work that's respected by others and be humble,
honest and sincere. Because you work in another big agency you expand your
network even further. Try to get to know people who work in "events" agencies.
Events agencies usually do not have a strong tech element in-house but they
often work with freelancers and contractors. Event agencies usually put up
large shows and stands for big companies at, guess what, events. This is where
your visualization passion comes in. Let them know what you do and show 'm
your passion.

After 5 years of working your ass off you can start venturing out on your own.
You have a massive network of people who respect you, want to work with you,
know how awesome, humble and honest you are. Start by doing small things on
the side and if it works out plan to make a big jump. The key is in your
network. If you're just some starving artist sitting lonely in a room without
knowing anyone you can forget about it. You'll be spending your days/nights in
the bread factory. Don't let it come to that.

Good luck!

~~~
Banekin
I'm going to graduate next year, so maybe I'll take a year off and try to find
something to do in NYC. Do you recommend college before working so I have an
easier time finding relevant jobs? I imagine it would be difficult to get a
job at a digital advertising agency without any credentials. Realistically I
can't work during High School, so I guess I should just study up in the
meantime.

~~~
Gianteye
There are lots of folks at Eyebeam, Fat Lab, and NycResistor who produce art
for a living. Some are artists for hire, constantly living from project to
project, others work for agencies. I'd definitely look into those labs and
possibly collaborate on projects to get a handle on the lifestyle that comes
with being a creative programmer.

~~~
wdewind
I interned for Eyebeam - it's an awesome place and can highly recommend it.

------
Swizec
A friend of mine markets himself as an internet poet. He writes Firefox
extensions, javascript hacks, utf-8 weirdnesses, all in the name of art.

Last month his exhibition was in one of the biggest galleries in the country.

Hope that answers your question :)

~~~
jeremyswank
i'm interested in your friend's work. can you provide a link or reference,
please?

~~~
Swizec
His homepage <http://www.jaka.org/>

Sorry I didn't notice your comment earlier.

------
jey
> an evolving medium with lots of potential

That one. Don't worry about commercializing for now; in the worst case you can
always make money by applying the same skills to program webapps and other
things people will pay for.

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nightlifelover
Heh I have been thinking about this too lately, since enterprise software
tends to be deadly boring..

