
Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore) - RudeBaguette
http://www.rudebaguette.com/2012/05/15/paris-v-berlin-the-facts/?utm_source=hackernews&utm_medium=hackernews&utm_campaign=hackernews
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bergie
I moved to Berlin from Helsinki (another regional start-up hub) last March:
<http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/>

There are several things that I've been positively surprised about:

* Cost of living is really cheap. Now when I travel to France or Finland I feel everything is expensive there

* Berlin is very well connected with rest of Europe (trains, flights)

* The hacker scene here is great (huge meetups, etc)

On the slightly negative side:

* bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser

* Rental agencies really try to fleece you

Since moving inside Europe is really simple, I'd urge anybody curious to take
a shot and stay here for a while. For example a month in some co-working
space.

~~~
bergie
C-base (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-base>) and co-up (<http://co-up.de/>)
would probably be good starting points for a visiting hacker.

I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz
(<http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en>), but I have no personal experience on
that one.

~~~
derrida
There are also a number of other hacker-spaces and the Chaos Computer Club.
There is one hacker space devoted entirely to the intersection between
Textiles and Electronics. Just a warning, Berlin is not the valley. It is it's
own unique and awesome thing. A huge proportion of the hacking community
couldn't care less about start ups. But it is a large community, and I can't
speak for everyone.

~~~
happimess
Do you have any links for the other hacker spaces in Berlin? I'll be
travelling there in the very near future, and will likely need a space to work
while I'm there.

I'll be there for a month, and don't mind paying a membership fee. I already
checked out c-base, co.up, and Sankt Oberholz, linked above. They look
promising, but more information can only help.

~~~
redbad
Another popular coworking café in Kreuzberg is The Nest, <http://cafenest.de>.

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drats
Even Parisians often flee Paris because of red tape and taxes, so if you add a
foreign accent, or poor to no French, into the mix you are likely going to be
going at a snail's pace. Berlin is cheaper, friendlier to business, friendlier
to English and just friendlier in general on the street. The cheapness
translates as a factor for employees (their home), and the international
orientation of the city allows you to draw on a much broader potential labour
force as tons more people from around Europe would consider a move to Berlin
than to Paris.

I'd be fairly surprised if there was even a single metric on which Paris beats
Berlin for anything business related, so unless you have a product specific to
the French market or have a significant other in Paris who can't move it's
Berlin every time. Even if you have a product specific to the French market
it's probably be best to be outside France unless you need to be there in
person to stroke the egos of bureaucrats who might regulate you out of
existence.

~~~
Kototama
_I'd be fairly surprised if there was even a single metric on which Paris
beats Berlin for anything business related_

Like Paris having the biggest business center in Europe?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_D%C3%A9fense>

~~~
raverbashing
La Defense is important (though not "technically" in Paris, but it's Paris
Area)

Let me add (compared to Berlin):

Good connectivity to: London, Brussels (train) and other cities (CDG one of
the biggest air hubs)

Major companies are there:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Paris#Fortune_Global...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Paris#Fortune_Global_500_companies)

(Most of the big companies are there: fashion, banks, defense/big contractors
(some), etc)

~~~
zeeed
the connectivity argument isn't real.

just monday, I spent 4 wonderful hours to go from CDG into town because public
transport in Paris is simply broken. Berlin isn't 100% but it's 100% better.

~~~
raverbashing
I'm not talking about connectivity inside the town. But yes, there are some
problems (eventually)

Or you could just take a cab from CDG to Paris.

But Paris has the Eurostar and Thales this means 1h15 from Paris (city center)
to Brussels (city center) and +/- 2h20 to London (St Pancras station). Without
having to go to a far-away airport and get there 1h before the flight.

Berlin sure has lots of flights _but it's not an Intl hub_ like LHR or CDG

------
pistoriusp
I was in Berlin in December, with my fiance, to check it out as I was
considering it as a potential place to work for a few a year or two.

It didn't resonate with me. But everyone has their own experiences. Below are
some of the good and bad from my experiences:

1\. Transportation is amazing. Not having a car is a non-issue. The most I
waited for a train was 10 minutes.

Drinking and smoking are allowed in the underground stations. Personal freedom
often trumped collective consciousness.

2\. Rent is cheap. But I found the city rather ugly. When I asked a resident
why they have so much "bad graffiti" she commented that it was to make it
ugly. Further questioning and reasoning was that ugly correlates to cheaper
rent.

3\. So much dog shit. Perhaps because there are a lot of dogs. They are very
well behaved. But the poo was everywhere.

4\. We stayed in Kreuzburg. It's trendy. Which means that it's mostly occupied
by unemployed artists. :P

5\. I speak very poor German, but Berliners are incredibly friendly and mostly
patient.

6\. It doesn't really feel like a big city.

7\. They had some nice galleries and museums. Architecturally I don't think I
saw anything significant, or that sticks out in my mind.

~~~
redbad

        Drinking and smoking are allowed in the underground stations.
    

Drinking is, but only beer (I think some max ABV%). Smoking is not allowed,
though it doesn't stop some people, I guess.

~~~
zalew
I smoked once on the S-bahn station (wouldn't imagine it can be allowed on
U-bahn), and the security politely informed me with a smile that it's not
allowed. In my homecountry I'm not used to any form of security being polite.

Not only beer, you forgot gluhwein :)

------
iuguy
This isn't a very well written article. Comparing Berlin to Paris isn't a fair
comparison. Paris for example, is subject to some of the most startup-hostile
laws in the EU. The adage of hire slowly and fire quickly just doesn't work
there, yet somehow this doesn't make the article.

It seems like the crux of the article is based on Berlin being cheaper than
Paris. Well, to be honest most of Europe is cheaper than most of central
Paris. You could just as easily claim that Athens is cheaper than Paris, but I
hardly see Athens as a startup hub for years to come.

The point about Berlin's geographical location given the ease of transport
within the EU for EU member state citizens is laughable. What about the talent
_in Germany_? There are some great universities in Germany that are overlooked
in favour of what? Poland? If one of Berlin's best points is it's proximity to
Poland, then Berlin is in serious trouble as a startup hub. I imagine that a
lot of (but not all) Poles might not see Germany as a natural startup
destination anymore than Russia. Besides, there's a heck of a lot of smart
Polish people who work all around the world as well as _shock_ in Poland.

Is Berlin better than Paris to launch a startup? Almost certainly. Almost
anywhere outside of France is better than France to launch a startup right now
(considering the red tape, taxis and uncertainty under Hollande) but it has a
long way to go to displace London and for Germany the UK in general.

In conclusion, in the EU if you want cheap, go to Bucharest. If you want good,
go to London.

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akg
I'm not sure about Berlin, but I am visiting Paris for a few months and I
found that it is just riddled with bureaucracy.

For example, there was an article recently about why there are so many
49-employee people companies in France:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3953145>

I would imagine things like this get in the way of actually developing product
and providing value to your customers.

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andreasklinger
As someone living in London i can see Berlin to become the seedstage city of
Europe fairly quickly. This might result into becoming the startup hub #1 on
the long run. But for now London holds the crown with an better uplink to the
US and in general to international media and investors. Your thoughts on this?

Could berlin be the Seedstage City of Europe ? Basically the Garage of this
continent.

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domodomo
What is the VC culture like in Berlin? Are there many VCs, and what kind of
companies do they typically invest in?

To me, this is the difference between a good town for bootstrapping and a good
town for creating a startup. As it stands, this article seems more like an
argument for why Berlin is a great place to bootstrap a company. Which is also
great, but different.

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manuelflara
I'm sure Berlin is not very different to Paris in this regard, but being from
Barcelona, Spain; my main concern regarding Berlin is the weather. I guess you
can't have everything.

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michaelfeathers
Odd that the article completely sidesteps bureaucracy.

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juliendsv-mbm
Great article, can't wait to read the part 2, to know if i should move or not
from Paris to Berlin !

