
Bose QC 35 Firmware 4.5.2 Noise Cancellation Investigation Report - robbiet480
https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-QC-35-Firmware-4-5-2-Noise-Cancellation-Investigation/td-p/285738#anoverview
======
snailerz
They are showing so much respect and care for their customers that is almost
unbelievable.

Kudos to their will to analyze and also document about a single problem so
thoroughly.

I never bought a Bose product before, but reading this honestly makes me think
about it...

If any company would cost a premium for being as careful as they are, I would
definitely pay for it.

~~~
noncoml
I disagree. The great customer support is just PR and an image they managed to
create. When it comes down to costing them money to do the right thing, they
don't.

The headphones won't turn off, but Bose refuses to make it right for the
users:

[https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
Headphones/QC-35...](https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
Headphones/QC-35-I-is-Turning-On-By-Itself/m-p/277366#M55150)

Note, the "solution" is buy new headphones if yours are our out of warranty.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be)

Edit: Wow, downvoted to -1 :/

~~~
wozniacki
What has your experience been with the multipoint feature of Bose QC35 IIs?
I'll make do with above average noise cancellation; doesn't have to be top
shelf in that aspect. I mainly want multipoint[1] and Bose I've been told does
it absolutely seamlessly more so than the Jabras, Sennheisers etc.

[1]

What is Bluetooth multipoint, and why isn’t it more popular?

[https://www.soundguys.com/bluetooth-multipoint-
explained-286...](https://www.soundguys.com/bluetooth-multipoint-
explained-28601/)

~~~
fragmede
It's a start, but personally, between my work phone + laptop, and personal
phone + laptop, along with misc other devices, means that I find myself in the
app switching devices more often than is ideal. It's a _bit_ cumbersome.
Better than competing products, way better than trying to manage without,
could still use additional improvement to support additional devices.

~~~
theshrike79
On the QC35 II you can cycle through the devices by using the power button.

------
JorgeGT
As a researcher in acoustics (another field though) this post illustrates
beautifully the difficulties of the field: how each of us feels different
about sound (psychoacoustics), how even minute mechanical details have a
noticeable impact on acoustic performance...

FWIW I can confirm that this post shows great expertise in acoustic
engineering, from the focus on the customer interviews/fieldwork (it is still
very difficult to predict through synthetic tests in the lab how actual human
will rate sounds) to the paired acoustic tests (we suck at comparing more than
two sounds, we need pairing like in the ophthalmologist), the use of a
critical listener, etc.

~~~
gerardbeckerleg
I agree it is very thorough, what is really strange from my experience with
the QC35 is that they haven’t found any problem. The noise cancellation in my
earphones was working perfectly, performed the upgrade, and now I can hear the
person next to me typing when I couldn’t before. 100% there is a problem with
the firmware update no idea how they couldn’t find it with that amount of
testing.

~~~
gerardbeckerleg
Doing a bit more digging, it looks like the report from Bose is testing the
wrong issue. They tested 4.1.3 to 4.5.2 where as the issue is from 2.x.x and
3.x.x update to 4.5.2.

[https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
Headphones/Bose-...](https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
Headphones/Bose-QC-35-Firmware-4-5-2-Noise-Cancellation-
Investigation/td-p/285741/page/2)

------
skizm
Why do the newer versions of these have to have freaking Alexa bundled with
them. It's like a giant skid mark on an otherwise premium product. Bose does
have the best noise cancelling functionality, but I'm simply never going to
buy anything with Alexa, Cortana, or whatever Google's version of a voice
assistant is paired to it. I deal with Siri crapware because Apple's
incentives are slightly better aligned than these other advertising companies,
but even that I hate and would get rid of in an instant if possible.

~~~
tomaha
It's only marketing. There is no integrated assistant. It's a plain old button
that can be used to activate one of these useless voice assistants on your
phone because some people like it. If you're like me, you can use it as an
extra control to modify noise cancellation.

~~~
usmannk
Yeah, you can change the functionality of the button via the Bose app.
However, the Bose app is awful.

~~~
matheusmoreira
How does the Bose app talk to the device? Wireshark can probably be used to
analyze it. Writing a simple free software replacement for the bad app could
be a fun project and the result will no doubt be much better than their
proprietary software.

~~~
sigstoat
> How does the Bose app talk to the device?

what options can there possibly be? it uses bluetooth.

> Wireshark can probably be used to analyze it.

bluetooth has reasonable security built in. bose products make use of it.

~~~
fulafel
There's a lot of protocols you can run over Bluetooth.

The BT dump tool can be run on the bluetooth device (eg laptop, phone) and so
get access to the negotiated crypto keys oe cleartext version of the comms.

------
stormbeta
While this is great news for my QC 35's, the newer Bose 700's have me
extremely worried for the future of their devices.

Anyone who puts non-tactile touch controls on _headphones_ shouldn't be
allowed to design electronics interfaces ever again.

The QC35 had it right with physical controls.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
I have the 700s, the important controls are buttons. The capacitive interface
is for mute, vol up/down, and next song, it’s not my first choice but really
it works fine.

This is a non-issue.

Edit: lol; my opinions from months of first hand everyday use are wrong, and
should be echo chamber hidden by people who have never used the product.

~~~
stormbeta
Capacitive controls have zero place on any headphones, let alone ones as
expensive as these. The fact that you're willing to live with it doesn't mean
it's not still a terrible design.

And I consider all of those buttons to be pretty important - I use all of them
regularly, including when I'm not right next to my phone.

I just hope the 700's are an aberration, and that Bose goes back to a more
practical design next time.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
> The fact that you're willing to live with it doesn't mean it's not still a
> terrible design.

Typical HN smugness.

One person who actually has the product, has used it for months, and has
themselves designed capacitive gesture button circuits then went back to
traditional buttons - says “they aren’t that bad, work fine”...

And a trove of people who have never used the product downvote and tell them
they are wrong.

OK.

No; it’s not a terrible design. I’ve maybe twice had to repeat a gesture. It’s
drag up/down for volume, tap for mute, and drag forward for skip song. It
works fine. Where the hell do you get the opinion it’s a terrible design if
you’ve never used them?

~~~
Dylan16807
They're not calling you wrong about your experience with the product. They are
listening to you say "not that bad", and taking it as completely true. Then
they are saying that "not that bad" is unacceptable in a product this
expensive.

Or by slight analogy: You rate a product 4 out of 5 stars. If someone that
hasn't used the product insists on a different rating, they're being smug and
part of the negative trove you've described. But if someone just says "4 out
of 5? Not good enough when other models are 5 out of 5." there is nothing
wrong with that.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
That’s a wildly inaccurate way to read my post. I rate the 700s as 5 out of 5.

~~~
Dylan16807
"not that bad" is still saying they're worse than normal buttons, even though
it's a tiny amount, right?

You giving the overall product a 5/5 isn't the point I was trying to make. I
was talking about your rating in the button category, sorry if that wasn't
clear, and it was just an example number.

------
disillusioned
My goodness. I've been following this issue, and avoiding upgrading my
firmware, for about two years now. But this is so incredibly thorough and
shows just how seriously they took these concerns, and validating, or
invalidating them.

They really dug deep here, and I respect them all the more for it. I've had
really good experiences with Bose products, even though they're priced at a
slight premium. They're just VERY high quality.

~~~
hackerbabz
Silly question, but how the heck do you update the firmware? I have QC35 and I
never realized they could be updated. Do I need to use the app? If I just
never use the app am I safe from this bug?

~~~
frereubu
Yes, you use the app to upgrade the firmware.

~~~
ncmncm
Like you have to install the app just to turn noise cancellation on and off?
And if you install it, they milk personal details out of your phone?

Or is that a different model?

I would never, ever buy headphones that need an app, for any purpose.

~~~
frereubu
They hide the setting not to harvest your data in the privacy policy - you can
use the app, make sure you turn off tracking, upgrade the firmware, then
delete the app. It makes sense that you need some kind of app to upgrade the
firmware. The only thing that is in the app that you can't do from the
headphones is the level of noise cancelling, but that doesn't bother me
because I always have it set to max.

~~~
dlgeek
Huh? Pressing the button on the left side cycles NC levels for me with a voice
saying "Noise cancellation high / low /off" for me.

If you have that mapped to alexa/ok google/etc, there's some other button
combo to hit to cycle the NC level, but totally doable in hardware. (Though,
changing the mapping DOES require the app).

~~~
frereubu
I don't have a button on the left side, just volume up, stop / start, volume
down on the right. Perhaps we're talking about different iterations of the
QC35?

------
jjoonathan
SelfVoice is the problem.

> In several conversations with customers, there was some confusion about
> noise cancellation function during a phone call or other Bluetooth HFP
> connection.

Yeah, because having multiple bluetooth profiles, one of which has good
cancellation and one of which doesn't due to SelfVoice is disastrous UX.

Anything that perturbs the bluetooth settings on sound-producing devices and
switches the default connected endpoint is going to trigger a severe
degradation of the headphones' noise cancellation and noise floor. There is no
light, or button, or obvious cue to indicate that the device is in a special
state. Fixing the problem requires understanding this weird, hidden behavior
(strike one) and dealing with bluetooth settings (strike two) on a device that
isn't the headphone (strike three).

I am very happy to hear that they are doing something about it, because
Windows has recently started clearing my repeated efforts to disable the
SelfVoice endpoint. Even though I understand the problem completely (which is
always the biggest hurdle) dealing with it has recently become a severe enough
hassle that I've been considering ditching the Bose on account of it.

~~~
IceDane
I bought the QC35-IIs through my works tech budget and was very disappointed
to find out how they worked wrt. there being two different voice profiles,
where one profile uses this selfvoice thing and has no ANC. This is
particularly shite when trying to use it to play games while talking to
friends on discord.

Am I understanding you correctly that it's possible to somehow disable this
feature or something? If so, can you share?

~~~
jjoonathan
Yeah. Navigate to: Windows Key search > "Sound Settings" > Output > Manage
Sound Devices

The "Manage sound devices" panel should show a list of "Output devices" and a
list of "Input devices." Click on one to disclose a Test button and a Disable
button. You should see your headphones show up twice in the "Output devices"
menu. Testing one of them will result in a clean sound, the other will result
in shit sound (due to SelfVoice). Press "Disable" on the one with shit sound.

Then do it again next time Windows Update runs and clears your user settings,
and again, and again, because apparently clearing settings to default is
something that Windows Update does now (I've seen it in other places too).

~~~
Dylan16807
Specifically, the big named releases every six* months, the ones that make a
new windows folder, wipe and reinstall all audio devices.

* They're possibly moving to having only the Spring updates do this.

------
noncoml
Ah.. QC35 I and QC35 II, the headphones that won't turn off, but Bose refuses
to make it right for the users:

[https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
Headphones/QC-35...](https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
Headphones/QC-35-I-is-Turning-On-By-Itself/td-p/106140)

Note, the "solution" is buy new headphones if yours are our out of warranty.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be)

~~~
ProfessorLayton
Ah, I've recently discovered that the on/off switch on my QC35II is actually
not a hardware off switch at all. My headphones refused to turn off once,
which I believe was triggered by being connected to two devices at once, one
of which was trying to use the mic.

The "solution" was to unpair everything and to make sure to only connect to
one device at a time. I really wish the switch actually just disconnected the
power.

Other than that they've been pretty solid so far.

~~~
mickelsen
I have the same model, but mine does behave like an on/off button, being
enough to solve that problem you had (no sound because some device other is
paired) Maybe it's something about a firmware upgrade? I remember there was
one in 2018 that enabled an auto turn-off feature past a certain time with no
use. I didn't update mine with that or any of the newer ones, so if I forget
to turn them off manually they just keep consuming battery.

------
herecomestracer
Impressive report, however their customer support is terrible for such premium
products. Have bought 3 sets of headphones over the last 6 years (2xQC25 and
1xQC35).

Each pair of headphones starts to have audio issues right after the 2 year
mark, usually resulting in the total loss of audio in one ear, and their
support channels will only advise you to buy a new pair.

Have switched to the competitor - Sony WH-1000XM3. So far so good.

But really disappointed by the quality and longevity of Bose's premium
products.

Won't buy again, and for such a serious issue to take this much effort for
Bose to allow firmware downgrades just confirms that for me.

~~~
asd4
I switched from Bose to Sony and haven't looked back. The capacitive controls
on the headphones are crap but I never really use them so it's not a big issue
for me. Rock solid for music and getting work done.

------
pimeys
From the comments I see the QC35 is not very durable pair of headphones. I
would understand if the price tag would be under 100 euros, but the QC35's are
quite expensive. And if they last only a couple of years, I wouldn't count
that progress at all!

There are great headphone manufacturers, such as Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic,
Focal and Grado, who make excellent studio level headphones that can easily
last for decades in use, delivering that beautiful sound and feeling
comfortable in daily office use.

I think the biggest problem is having Bluetooth in your headphones, which then
requires a battery that is not easily replaced, and requires software and
technology that either has bugs or degrades in a faster manner. I'd suggest
while sitting in front of your computer, to use a corded pair of quality
headphones and keep using them for years to come. Less waste, less money
spent, better sound.

I've had Beyerdynamic's dt-880 model since 2003. I could still use them in the
office, but them being open I replaced them with the dt-1770 pro model to not
annoy my colleagues that much. Brought the 880's home and now with the
lockdowns I'm again using them daily while writing software. Just replace the
ear pads every five years, clean the drivers with pressurized air and you're
ready to go.

~~~
qppo
The 880s aren't wireless, active noise cancelling cans and aren't relevant in
this context.

The brands you list have fine build quality, classic headphones based on the
same physics and materials dating back about 50 years. They sound great, but
they're not particularly novel, nor are they the same kind of product that is
discussed here.

~~~
josteink
> The 880s aren't wireless, active noise cancelling cans and aren't relevant
> in this context.

Of course they are.

If they provide a substantially better listening experience, at a lower cost
and with passive noise-damping and less use of technology prone to failure,
that makes them 110% relevant to the discussion at hand.

~~~
lethologica
No, they’re not. The marketing on the companies own site even agrees they
aren’t noise canceling.

“The semi-open headphones attenuate ambient noise, but do not exclude it
completely”

[https://europe.beyerdynamic.com/dt-880-edition.html](https://europe.beyerdynamic.com/dt-880-edition.html)

These are very different products.

~~~
josteink
Sorry. My bad.

My experience are with the 770s[1], which are closed and has amazingly good
passive noise damping. I don’t miss ANC one bit.

[1]
[https://europe.beyerdynamic.com/dt-770-pro.html](https://europe.beyerdynamic.com/dt-770-pro.html)

------
jmcgough
I bought QC 35's a year ago and wish I had sooner. They're very well designed,
and reading this makes me respect Bose even more. This is why their brand name
is still so trusted.

~~~
cheez
best headphones I've owned, buy them for everyone who asks lol

~~~
jmcgough
I have studio cans for music, but these are my dailies. They're so convenient
for taking calls and make open offices much more bearable.

~~~
cheez
Of course, I'm talking for plebs :-)

------
rkagerer
The degree of investigation is impressive and I commend Bose on this!

However, it does sound like they had a number of issues or regressions in
prior versions of the firmware (eg. an update made some units connect to the
wrong Bluetooth profile). I hope this demonstrates business reasons why it's
important to get your product code right every release. Had they maintained a
better reputation for competent product updates, it's unlikely user skepticism
would have ballooned this into such a big deal.

------
Lammy
"An important piece of feedback we’ve received from the community during this
discussion is that you want the ability to downgrade the firmware on your Bose
QC35 product. Today, we’re re-introducing the ability to downgrade firmware
QC35 II to 4.3.6 and QC35 series 1 to 2.5.5 via the Bose BTU site for a
limited time."

A limited time? Why? How limited?

~~~
hnarn
A better question is why they are letting customers do this at all since the
whole article proves that there is no point in downgrading. It seems to only
add additional confusion if you ask me, and plays in the hands of customers
who claim that there's something wrong with the software even now that Bose
has proven beyond all doubt that there is not.

~~~
gilgoomesh
My guess: loud, obnoxious, forum participants who won't stop brigading about
it. Providing the downgrade – while technologically pointless – will rob those
forum participants of their bluster (although they'll probably claim the
downgrade is a lie or some other conspiracy).

~~~
hnarn
I agree with your guess, what I don't understand is why they would play along
with this type of delusion. It's not going to accomplish anything apart from
making these people more convinced in the face of opposing evidence that they
were right all along.

~~~
Faark
It also gives users the trust of being able to run their preferred firmware on
the hardware they own. Then they don't have to avoid upgrading as seen in e.g.
this other HN comment [0].

I totally understand dev's wanting their customers to run the latest version
for a number of reasons. And it being hard or even impossible for e.g. online
services to keep older versions available. It's totally reasonable to have the
default setup auto update or strongly push the latest version. But a motivated
user wanting to run a specific version should have the ability to do so.
Especially when we are talking about hardware.

Yes, some users will be idiots and cause support work. But if the companies
behavior indicates no one using the product can be trusted to not act like an
unreasonable idiot, it's not a big stretch that customers will think the same
about the producer.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22783345](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22783345)

------
knorker
> We are exploring options to allow you to modify how [self voice] works via
> the Bose Connect app

Yes, please! Shut that fucking thing OFF. The only time I use the cable is
because it doesn't have this terrible feature.

Especially when I connect to something like an amateur radio there's zero
reason to ruin the sound by mistaking listening to amateur radio as some sort
of "call".

~~~
jiofih
Wait, isn’t that feature only activated when you join a phone call? Why would
it be activated for “amateur radio”?

~~~
knorker
I don't know. Maybe the radios are using the "phone call" feature to relay the
audio. Maybe they have to, in order for the mic to work if you transmit,
without delay.

I've not tried transmitting, because listening is so bad, thanks to this
feature.

------
Erwin
The founder, professor Bose, had quite an interesting career and background:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar_Bose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar_Bose)

> His father was an Indian freedom revolutionary[4] who, having been
> imprisoned for his political activities, fled Bengal in the 1920s in order
> to avoid further persecution by the British colonial police.

> In 2011, Bose donated a majority of the company's non-voting shares to MIT
> on the condition that the shares never be sold.

~~~
MengerSponge
This is a great episode about Bose's life and gift:
[https://www.20k.org/episodes/thegift](https://www.20k.org/episodes/thegift)

------
totalZero
I have purchased five or six different pairs of Bose noise-cancelling
headphones, but I will never buy another product from them again until they
allow customers to revert firmware.

I updated the firmware on my QC35s a couple of years ago, and the ANC got
worse. Like, maybe 6 decibels or so worse, with strange white noise. I wrote
to them explaining the problem and asked how to revert firmware, and they said
it wasn't permitted and instructed me to "turn the device off and on" or
something like that as a way to pretend to address the issue and make me go
away.

I have only owned two products whose manufacturers refused to solve the
problem when a new release of software or firmware ruined the user experience.
The first was my Google Nexus 6P that boot-looped itself to death upon startup
after an Android upgrade, and the second was my pair of QC35s.

Since then, I don't trust Bose's updates and refuse to update any of my other
devices made by them.

~~~
tambre
> until they allow customers to revert firmware.

In this post they're adding an option to do this. Albeit only to a single
earlier firmware.

------
nreilly
That's a fantastic way of showing a company is listening to customer feedback
and acting upon it, even if there doesn't seem to be anything wrong.

Apple (and many other companies) could learn something from this transparency.

------
cityzen
Before people start fawning over Bose's handling of this, don't forget they're
just like every other data mining company:
[https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-
pro...](https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-
products/electronics/891794-bose-must-face-spying-headphones-class-action-
lawsuit/)

~~~
canada_dry
Good point. And, people who care about privacy shouldn't be too excited about
having built-in Siri/Google/Alexa integration either.

~~~
cityzen
Fortunately costco had/has the old version before they sold their souls to
Bezos. Why people want Amazon listening to anything is beyond me.

------
spike021
I was fortunate enough to get an expensed pair of QC 35 I's at a previous job.
This was a little over 3 years ago now. Never had any of the described issues.
Even now they feel and sound great. Battery life may be starting to degrade,
which is disappointing since I don't believe there's a way to replace it
myself, and Bose probably doesn't offer any service to do it either.

~~~
lstamour
I still have brand loyalty to Bose after almost a decade of trade-ins at a
discounted price every 2.5 years or so. It’s too bad that around 2017 they
stopped the trade-in program. The old QC 15s still had one of the nicest
“fits” for me, and the 25s were pretty good too. But I wouldn’t want to have
to keep swapping out AAA batteries or having to carry batteries with me in the
case. I did like the old case design better than the new one, seemed flatter
somehow. But the 35s going Bluetooth was a game changer for me, especially in
connecting two devices at a time. Only thing missing is a USB C port so I
don’t have to worry about plugging it in the wrong way to charge at night...

~~~
ncmncm
This strikes me as a terrible history. I would never go back after such
experience.

~~~
lstamour
Well, the QC 15 was perfect for me for a number of years, as long as I had AAA
batteries. And while every new version after had some kind of trade off to it,
the QC series has overall been quite reliable, with removable cords, etc. The
Bluetooth version added a lot of complexity, but when it works well, it’s
magic. And it works more often than it doesn’t, I just tend to notice the
Bluetooth stack bugs more when they occur. Similarly I had to replace a number
of QC 15 and 25 cords over the years as they inevitably went bad due to
prolonged use and abuse, as it were. The Bose store historically made it very
easy to get spare parts and service, though I presume that’s changed somewhat
today...

------
nodamage
Wonder if they're doing anything similar with the "headphones randomly
powering on even though the switch is turned off" issue?

~~~
xur17
I had this issue with the QC 35 version 1, and they shipped me replacement
headphones for free.

------
chewxy
Wow, I am amazed at the level of care. I currently use a QC25, and did not
update to 35 because I am not happy about the Siri/Google/Alexa integration.
Still, I am definitely floored by the amount of care Bose provides on their
product.

I guess my next set of headphones will still be from Bose.

~~~
funkaster
I used to have the QC25 until they disappeared from my desk at work. Got the
new 700 and holly cow, those are great headphones. I don’t even use the
app/any integration, just regular bt headphones and they work just great: I
can have up to two devices connected simultaneously and switching from one to
the other is seamless. I also really like how they work both wireless and
there’s a wired option as well (they even include the cable). I’m really happy
with the upgrade.

------
lxe
The fact that they reintroduced the ability to downgrade the firmware is very
refreshing. Hope more companies will follow suit.

~~~
ojagodzinski
only to one specific version. This is not what community was hoping for.

~~~
jiofih
Why would you want to downgrade to a different version now that it’s clear
there is no difference in NC?

------
rdudek
I'm thinking about picking up the QC 35's series 2 or the Sony WH-1000MX3's.
Any recommendations? Can either of those turn off the noise canceling tech?
I'm not a big fan of noise canceling technologies, I'm just looking for a
quality sounding wireless headset to pair with my iphone.

~~~
eyegor
They're similar, but I'd say the noise cancelation is a bit better on the
sonys. I also prefer the tuning on the sonys, but that's a matter of taste. (I
don't own a pair of qc35, but I did swap with a friend for a plane ride). I
don't know about the qc35, but on mx3s you can turn on/off the nc features, or
cup your hand over the speakers to temporarily pause them. They also have a
pretty good bluetooth low energy implementation which makes them last more
than 14 hours, but I haven't ever let them fully run down so I don't know the
true battery life.

~~~
fyfy18
I have a two year old (set of?) MDR-1000X (the previous model) and the battery
is still working fine. I usually have them on for 6 hours a day - with NC as
it comes on by default, and I forget to turn it off - and only charge them
once a week.

------
nvarsj
Audio "issues" are incredibly subjective. The placebo effect is so strong with
audio, which has led to an entire industry of snake oil and hyper subjective
audio comments (like many seen in the replies here). Unless you blind A/B
test, it is very hard to discern audio differences unless you have been
professionally trained. Your ears and perception are most likely lying to you,
especially with something as subtle as noice cancellation. I definitely
sympathize with Bose here, it is hard to convince people with science when it
comes to audio, unfortunately.

------
ripvanwinkle
For what its worth my QC35 right headset stopped working just a month past the
12 month warranty and I had no luck getting the issue redressed.

That's a rather early failure for ~350$ of hardware.

------
DoofusOfDeath
Assuming that the report isn't subtly misrepresenting the situation in some
way, that's a fantastic job. It adds to my confidence in the hardware/firmware
quality of their product.

I do however have lingering concerns about their spyware [0]. Does anyone know
if that's been addressed?

[0] [https://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-
privacy/](https://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-privacy/)

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
Update: I think my question is partially answered here [1]. They seem to want
far more information that I'm interested in sharing with them.

[1]
[https://www.bose.com/en_us/legal/privacy_policy.html](https://www.bose.com/en_us/legal/privacy_policy.html)

------
kevindong
For what it's worth, several of Bose's customers are continuing to refuse to
believe this report's conclusion (in several instances, in an aggressively
rude/accusatory way).

[https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
Headphones/Bose-...](https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
Headphones/Bose-QC-35-Firmware-4-5-2-Noise-Cancellation-
Investigation/td-p/285741)

------
snvzz
Full disclosure: My primary set is Sennheiser HD600, which I use a lot and
love. Excellent sound objectively and subjectively. Worth every cent, despite
being available since 1997. They benefit a lot from a headphone amp but still
do a decent job without. They are made to last, and should an accident ever
break a piece, all parts are replaceable individually without the need for
tools. I've had them for several years and they're as good as new.

I have tested QC35 before, on a loan from a coworker. The FR is very good, but
the distortion is horrendous. Measurements made on the set confirm by
reviewers do confirm my impressions were spot on. Apparently the reason the FR
is good is because they have a builtin DSP doing EQ.

When I heard the price, for such bad sounding headphones, I thought about them
as a scam. Later, I learned they don't just distort a lot, but are also not
made to last. Brand loyalty is high, and the money BOSE spends in marketing
plays no small role on this. BOSE devices are expensive and those who buy them
get associate the price with quality. When they break, they just buy BOSE
again.

~~~
ProZsolt
I own a Sennheiser HD600 and a Bose QC25. They don't race in the same league.
The HD600 has better sound quality hands down and I try to use it whenever I
can. Where the QC25 shines is the noise canceling. I fly a lot and during a
transatlantic flight, Bose is a godsend. It blocks out the engine noise very
effectively. I can listen to music, podcasts, videos without cranking up the
volume to max. Sometimes I use it in the office to block out office noises.
Every other situation the HD600 is better.

------
aortega
I have a QC 35, and I have experienced some of the degrading of sound
isolation. After some research I discovered than the pads account for much of
it, and they degrade rather quickly, but not faster than any other headphone
and I have very expensive headphones. My Sennheiser 650 is >400 usd and is on
his third pair of pads.

The QC35 is so great that I developed ear problems for using them too much. So
be careful with that.

~~~
hellofunk
What kind of ear problems? That could refer to any of several very different
problems.

------
dannyw
Has anyone personally encountered this problem? Do you believe in this report?
Do you think something is missing?

For me, I quite like Bose products because their bluetooth pairing and
connectivity seem to be significantly better than what I can get from cheaper
brands like Taotronics, etc. I have always found products to be well built,
even for full-plastic devices that are subject to more wear and tear than they
deserve.

~~~
cgearhart
I don’t know if it was _this_ problem, but I had an issue after firmware
update this week. I have had the QC35 II headphones since 2017, and I love
them. I also _never_ update software unless something is broken—I don’t care
about new features, I just want things to keep working. This past week I had
to launch the Bose app to reconnect my phone to the QC35’s and it suggested a
firmware update. I very rarely launch the app, so I let it proceed. They
became _completely_ unusable after the update. The audio quality was awful,
and noise cancelling virtually disappeared.

I was able to determine that the problem was the QC35 microphone was stuck
“on”, so it was attenuating the audio and amplifying ambient noise. I’ve had
similar problems before with other Bluetooth devices and suspected that the
firmware change caused them to identify or connect to the wrong Bluetooth
device profile.

Fortunately, restarting my phone resolved the problem. I don’t know why that
worked, and I don’t know whether it was the phones fault or the headphones
fault. It just affirmed my reasons for avoiding software updates.

~~~
wingerlang
I've had this issue (and posted about it with several people chiming in). I
tend to toggle manually the input back to the macbook and it usually works.
Kinda annoying though.

------
heelix
There was a time where I likely spent more time on an airplane than some
pilots. For years, I used their older QC3 all day long.. traveling and
working. At some point, well past any warranty, they started to make a popping
sound. They essentially just swapped it out for free.

I picked up a pair of the A20 aviation headsets, just before they announced
the Bluetooth update. (I also fly, but when I do they are the bug smashers,
not the commercial ones) They turned around and cross shipped a new module for
my headset free of charge.

I did end up replacing the older QC3's with one of the QC35 wireless headsets.
Nothing but positive things to say about their kit. For the most part, it has
been used hard and worked flawlessly. When I have had an issue - they took
really good care of me. Would reccomend.

(With the QC35, I've really not needed to do anything with them. They just
connected to my Linux box and Andriod tables OOTB.)

------
stagas
And what about their planned obsolescence strategy like the right ear
simultaneously[0] stop working on everybody's QC25s with no replacement or
repair option?

[0]: [https://community.bose.com/t5/In-Ear-Headphones/Right-ear-
st...](https://community.bose.com/t5/In-Ear-Headphones/Right-ear-stopped-
working-QC25/td-p/37207)

~~~
canada_dry
> ... _" The right side stopped working in April 2018. I got them replaced and
> the operator gave me "one time only exception" to the replacement fee"_...

So, for folks suggesting Apple et al follow Bose's lead, it's clear they all
follow the same play book i.e. a design flaw isn't their problem the moment
the warranty is up.

I'm someone who will escalate and put in the effort to be righted when a
company does wrong, but it would sure be nice if companies didn't outright
lie, coverup or have hidden warranties/"you're an exception" when they screw
up!

------
diebeforei485
Apple's AirPods Pro have a similar issue where a firmware update nerfed the
noise-cancelling[1]. Apple stopped pushing the update, but I'm been stuck with
this bad firmware for nearly four months now.

The firmware updates are installed silently in the background while AirPods
are charging, so I didn't have any choice in the matter.

FWIW - I agree with installing updates automatically silently in the
background because it solves a ton of issues for both developers and 99% of
users. But the developers must thoroughly test the performance in real-world
prior to pushing updates to users _AND_ offer a way to downgrade.

1\. [https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/18/airpods-pro-noise-
cancellatio...](https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/18/airpods-pro-noise-cancellation-
update/)

------
motohagiography
Product management master class right there.

------
jopsen
I noticed other threads complained about lack of CHANGELOG for firmware
updates.

I don't know what they have that they think is so secret, that thry can't tell
us what bugs were fixed.

As an engineer I dislike this lack of transparency.

On the other hand these headphones mostly just work, apart from a few
annoyance with reconnect time, etc.

------
hobs
Their soundsports on the other hand are just bad at connecting to a bluetooth
device and staying in sync at >1.5m distance.

I've tried it with 4 different phones now, and they just cut out every time.

Bose has been kind enough to exchange several pairs at no cost and hassle, but
its not a problem with one of them, its all of them

~~~
m3h
Same here. Suffering with Soundsport Free since I got them. They frequently
disconnect even when I'm near my phone. Also, the audio/video lag issue is a
total deal breaker. Bose seems to be the only one who has such issues.

~~~
hobs
For what its worth I have also seen the same behavior with Jabra wireless
headphones, they might use the same chip/stack under the hood though.

------
dahdum
Maybe I’m unlucky, but even keeping my QC25s in the case when not wearing
them, I had two fail due to internal hardware issues just past warranty.
Support was a joke. I’d have felt like a fool the next time so I switched to
Sony’s line, zero issues in the last 4 years and I’ve traveled twice as much.

------
exabrial
Now THAT is how you do a root cause analysis. I don't own a pair of these
headphones, but I'm sending this out to my coworkers as an example of thorough
work. Very very well done!

Ironically... also looking at purchasing their product

------
crazygringo
This is fascinating.

Seems almost a little overkill, but if their reputation is at stake then you
want to make sure.

Now I just wish there were a similar investigation into the AirPods Pro update
-- some people swearing it massively impaired the noise reduction, other
people saying there's no difference and some tiny subset of people are always
going to be imagining things (or taking a different train or working in a new
office, like this article).

At least the idea of being able to downgrade firmware ought to put people's
minds at ease... but I can also see why technically that might be annoying to
implement.

------
tiew9Vii
Bose have had a few bad software updates historically. My sound bar lost its
bass in an early update which they eventually resolved, also they made some
promises about airplay 2 which never happened on some devices. Privacy policy
+ devices phoning home is questionable.

QC35’s are a major seller for them so it’s good to see the effort going in to
investigating the issue. Hopefully the effort gone in to investigating carries
through to better software in general so it’s easy for them to verify what’s
changed and also better release procedures again so they can reduce the post
release debugging they had to do here.

------
ornornor
This is amazing! It's really nice to see how much Bose cares. Contrast that
with Apple for instance: they are both selling products on which they
emphasize quality and craftsmanship at above market prices. Yet Apple never
ever acknowledges QA issues until a few years after the product is out, and
does all it can to pretend everything is fine. Really impressed by Bose. I
would seriously consider purchasing their headphones if active noise
cancellation didn't make me feel like my nose is all congested and didn't give
me a headache.

------
Schwolop
There's a potential systemic bias involved in this that the report does not
consider (unsurprisingly). What if the particular firmware caused hearing
damage that now causes these users to think the noise-cancelling performance
has deteriorated? I have no reason to think this is the case, but wow, what a
confounder to have to deal with!

------
locusofself
I love my QC35 headphones except one thing- the bluetooth range is very small,
like 20 feet? AirPods go much farther from my phone/laptop without breaking
up. If I just cup my hands over the outside of the right headphone, the signal
cuts out. Or if I hold my phone in my left hand while walking, it cuts out
some times. Sounds great as long as my phone is close enough though.

------
neycoda
"our full engineering analysis determined that the degradation in all cases
was the result of hardware related issues with earcushions, aftermarket parts,
or mechanical integrity"

Specifically, damage caused by the customer from use or misuse, or buying
inadequate replacement parts from 3rd party manufacturers.

------
Fiahil
I had to replace the ear cushion 6 month ago, and I couldn't find Bose's
original replacement parts. I noticed the ANR perfs dropped a little bit after
the replacement - something similar to what they described in the article.

Is Bose selling original ear cushions somewhere ?

~~~
mav3rick
They sell it on their website (in the US). You can also call them to place an
order .

------
beams_of_light
I have a pair of QC 35s which I can only use low/no NC on due to vertigo
issues with "high" mode. Looks like Bose has done an extremely impressive job
of fleshing out the problem. Well done.

------
7ewis
So is the general consensus that we can safely update now?

Honestly I'm not great at noticing sound quality differences, unless there's a
huge difference. But this one seemed to affect so many people I stayed away.

------
jacquesm
Has there been any effort at making an open source version of these noise
cancelling headphones? It would seem to make for a pretty neat project.

------
markdown
Unrelated to this, the Bose aviation headset has been sold out and unavailable
in most of the world for about a year now.

~~~
phonon
Which model....? Looks okay to me

[https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/aviation-headsets/bose-
avi...](https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/aviation-headsets/bose-aviation-
headsets.html)

~~~
markdown
Holy cow, they're back! I just checked stores in my part of the world. The
proflight has been out for ages, both online and in stores all over Australia,
New Zealand, and Singapore. I've been searching since early last year.

------
kim0
While we're at it, any recommendations for having phone calls in noisy
environments?

~~~
kim0
Preferably true wireless ones

------
hank_z
I hope all companies in this world will care customers like Bose does.

------
iandanforth
TLDR: PEBCAK

But damn they spent a lot of time to get to that conclusion.

