
Why Nerds Succeed‎ - whenimgone
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/books/review/book-review-the-geeks-shall-inherit-the-earth-by-alexandra-robbins.html
======
andrewvc
High school rewards people who socialize well, it doesn't punish kids for
loving science. If you socialize well, you can 'get away' with being a CS
major, hell, you can even make it cool. It just so happens plenty of nerds
_don't_ socialize well.

Reaching out to teens and asking them to reach out to their dorky classmates
because they might be their bosses one day just doesn't take. They lack the
foresight, control, and interest.

The reality of the situation is that teens can and will be immature, annoying,
shits. People have known this for centuries.

~~~
officemonkey
It's unfortunate that people can't be successful _in high school_ without
socializing well. Fortunately, high school doesn't last forever. And, there
are other ways to get a functioning adult without mass incarceration at a
public school.

We talk about how high school is a problem, but improperly-socialized children
is a parental failure. Most parents are quick to drop the children off at day
care at six weeks old and then they wonder why high school is barely more
civilized than a wolfpack.

I have a three-year old, and I will support any activity he wants to do (from
fly fishing to perl hacking), but I will also make sure he's polite,
articulate, and compassionate. If only all parents made that a priority.

~~~
andrewvc
Well, as great as being polite, articulate, and compassionate is, those
attributes don't (necessarily) add up to cool in school. I don't think that's
something parents can really teach.

~~~
impendia
I think the essence of being cool is having a sophisticated understanding of
what is going on around you. High school geeks often find their environment
tedious and can't be bothered to invest a lot of effort into figuring it out.

This is the thesis of PG's "Why nerds are unpopular", and having lived that
life, I can assert he's right. Being polite, articulate, and compassionate
doesn't hurt you in life -- and neither does intelligence -- but when it comes
to "coolness" I think awareness of your surroundings is the most important
key.

~~~
dlitwak
This is spot on. I was a "band geek", more specifically an "orchestra dork",
in high school, and a computer science nerd as well. Not exactly the most
popular combination. My attitude in high school was mostly not caring about
being popular, and I didn't make any effort to identify with people I
considered to be unlike me. I had other friends, in the music program, who
were sociable and could identify with the less academic oriented crowd and
they did fine. I gained a lot of this awareness in college and actually went
on to be my fraternities social and rush chair, and what changed was that I
gained a more acute awareness of people's social interactions and put in the
time to figure out the college social situation. This isn't always a huge
priority of nerds, or they just haven't gotten there yet: they may be so
advanced in one aspect that the social skills haven't quite caught up yet.
However, I disagree that all these geeks will go on to inherit the world: if
they don't EVENTUALLY gain those social skills and recognize how valuable they
are, they won't get anywhere near as far as they can. There is some ridiculous
statistic like some 60-70% of all senators/presidents were Greek (frat and
sorority life), and I think this speaks less to the value of the greek system
and more to the fact that people who place value on interacting with other
people and communicating go farther than those who don't.

------
edw519

      1960's: Eddie's so gifted! Send him to a special school.
      1970's: What a nerd! How will he ever meet a girl?
      1980's: What? You want to go out with me? What a nerd!
      1990's: Look at that's nerd's car. His father must have bought it.
      2000's: With all this computer stuff, good thing he was always a nerd.
      2010's: No longer a nerd. Just an "outlier".

~~~
loboman
Also, now people want to be somewhat disguised as nerds, using geeky gadgets
and pretending to like computers (just because they like Facebook and MSN).

~~~
dstein
A lot of people are buying Macbook Pro's these days, and all I see them ever
do is use them to read Facebook.

~~~
rokhayakebe
From a technical point of view, what are some critical tasks can you do on a
mac that you couldn't do on a windows or linux machine?

~~~
tomjen3
Program IOS apps.

~~~
rimmjob
why would anyone want to do that?

------
elptacek
"None of this, however, dampens the urgency of her broader message. “Adults
tell students that it gets better, that the world changes after school, that
being ‘different’ will pay off sometime after graduation,” she writes. “But no
one explains to them why.” Beyond the bromides, she’s dead on: teenagers need
to hear that adolescence ends. And more than that, they need to believe it."

Our kids have been told that they will learn more about living in the world
from school than they will of the Three Rs. And that it is an important skill,
being able to cope with the stress. It just seems to be the best way to frame
it for them: people are sometimes shitty. No sense in trying to figure out why
or change them. Better spend your energies finding ways to avoid them when
possible and suck it up the rest of the time. And I don't exclude teachers. I
tell them that these are skills they'll need for the rest of their lives,
because there will always be a boss, a cop, a teacher or some other person in
a position of authority who may not be inclined to act to your advantage.

Then you move on. Build stuff. Learn to play an instrument. Write stuff.
Anything that makes you feel good that doesn't rely on someone else's
approval. Next thing you know, you're interesting and everybody wants to know
you. It's a better use of your resources than whining, for sure.

~~~
j_baker
I think you should tell this to the bullies. That way they can tell their
victims "Remember, I'm teaching you a valuable life lesson" after they're done
beating them up and taking their lunch money.

Seriously though, being a social outcast isn't a valuable experience, nor is
it healthy. It sucks, and it teaches you that your only options are to avoid
the shitty people or suck it up as you put it. The reality is that you have a
third option: being assertive. Believe it or not, you can make a shitty
situation tolerable with a bit of honesty and frankness.

After all, there are going to be shitty people you can't avoid, and you'll
explode if you just suck it up. But school doesn't teach geeks to do that. It
teaches them to be docile and accept their shitty situation.

------
keeptrying
What's amazing is that this kind of article is purely due to societal
labeling.

In India you would never have this kind of article because the students with
the highest grades are revered by everyone else while the jocks are looked
down as guys who will , in the future, only be able to get menial jobs!

I'm always surprised at how much pain and suffering a "geek" has to go through
in the US whereas he would be the center of attention in India.

Same situation but with different labeling applied ... Amazing.

~~~
csomar
_In India you would never have this kind of article because the students with
the highest grades_

There is something wrong here. Someone with high grades is not necessarily a
geek. A geek will probably rank well and get good grades. I actually think,
geeks will have not so good grades. That's because they are busy doing other
things: like programming, or free-thinking.

In Tunisia, high school encourage stupidity. I can't imply the same for India,
but I'm almost sure that it is the same case. With little intelligence, lot of
hard (repetitive) work and sometimes private courses, you can get incredibly
good results.

If someone has the highest grades in a high school that encourages stupidity,
he is probably not a geek. There are more than Maths and Physics in high
school. I doubt geeks will be interested in subjects that focus on dumb-
memorization of a few sentences. This will decrease their rank.

I would like that you comment more about this subject, because I have been
there (High School) and lived it.

~~~
true_religion
I disagree. When it comes to highschools in the United States, things are so
viciously easy outside of the AP/IB track that you can sleep through class and
still get a high B or low A.

It's anecdotal but its confirmed by foreign students that I know who came from
abroad to begin schooling in the US.

~~~
keeptrying
Yeah US/UK school curriculum is a cake walk compared to Indian/Chinese school
curriculum.

I was born in India and lived in the UK for 6 years. My dad used to make me
study the Indian curriculum after I got home. I hated studying the Indian one.

School however was like a breeze though ... Didnt have to even think :) ...
They even made me go to a senior class for math because I found the subject
matter so easy.

And it wasnt only math that I did well at. I was the top of the class in
english as well.

Anyway seriously, you cant compare the Indian/Chinese curriculum to the US
one.

------
maw
_For the modern adult, nothing signifies self-confidence, street credibility
and authenticity like one simple confession: “I was such a nerd in high
school.”_

Really? Credibility, of the street variety or otherwise, and authenticity? I
think Bruder should review what those words mean before using them again.

It depends on the person, but, for the most part, when I hear people say that,
I know they're making shit up.

Of course, since the opening premise is based on lies, there's basically
nowhere that Bruder can go with this. Some nerds are successful, yes. Yet so
are many gorillas.

------
xtreegold
Successful nerds succeed, there are plenty of unsuccessful nerds. I, without a
shred of evidence, would think there is a positive correlation between school
geekiness and success, but all this "nerds will own the world" talk that is
gaining traction lately is a bit foolish, in my opinion.

~~~
IvarTJ
Being different and bullied is sadly not always followed by success. As
someone with the diagnosis of Asperger’s, which has been called “the Geek
syndrome,” I am acquianted with many with the diagnosis who have struggled for
a long time to maintain stable employment.

------
cstavish
I was a "closeted" geek in my high school until people found out I had made
$15k in a few months off my Cydia Store iOS tweaks. My classmates responded
positively, which is understandable. However, most of my classmates don't care
that I'm a passionate programmer, or was one long before I started to make
money. Most of my classmates simply view me a success from a monetary
standpoint. I don't think geeks are necessarily becoming respected in droves
by their peers; if anything, people are now recognizing that geeks have the
potential for great success. For example, most of my classmates (again, most),
would probably not respond positively to another, hypothetical geek student
who is a brilliant programmer and prolific free software contributor. They
would likely ridicule him or her for not trying to make money.

 _The Social Network_ has contributed to this new stance towards geeks, which,
save for the cringe-inducing "I know HTML so I'm gonna make the next FB!", is
generally a good thing.

~~~
conradev
My exact story.

Before I started making things for profit everyone just saw me as extremely
good with computers. After people found out I made XX dollars, everyone
started calling me the overly clichéd "next [Steve Jobs|Mark Zuckerberg]".

Because of this, I prefer not to give out sales figures anymore. When
classmates ask how many people have bought my products, I respond "A good
amount." and leave it at that. Being called the next Steve Jobs by someone is
being alienated by that person.

~~~
cstavish
Merely by becoming a programmer, you have alienated yourself in a sense. The
most successful people in the world have alienated themselves. They are
outliers. Superlative compliments can be alienating in a positive sense.
Comments like "Dude, wtf? How do you find the time to do that s---? Are trying
to be the next [famous technology-related individual]?" are alienating in a
negative sense and convey disapproval. Some environments reward individuality;
others ridicule it. Unfortunately, it seems that you have experienced more of
the latter than I have.

------
ilamont
"Cafeteria fringe". I think a lot of us can identify.

But not everyone finds a friend or their own group (geeks, goths, whatever)
and are pretty much completely alienated. Of course it leaves bitterness, as
this story (I recall it was linked from HN some years ago) attests:

[http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2009/07/very_off_topic_why_...](http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2009/07/very_off_topic_why_i_wont_be_a.php)

Also worth reading: pg's "Why Nerds Are Unpopular"

<http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html>

------
lhnz
Socializing too deeply early on at school is often a disadvantage in later
life; the best successes are those with raw talents that learnt to socialise
out of school.

The reason for this disadvantage is institutional and would be difficult to
decouple from a mainstream education. Basically, the social hierarchy at a
school promotes the social status of people that (a) are older or part of the
educational bureaucracy, (b) demonstrate superficial interest in manufactured
culture, (c) belong to mainstream cliques with lowest common denominator
values, and most of all (d) are non-disruptive and therefore willing to follow
the rules and authorities of the institution. This is as opposed to later life
where in a less rigid social structure freethinkers move ahead from others
depending on their ability to be (e) disruptive and on their human merit: (f)
intellectual and (g) social.

It should be quite clear that, while a school may attempt to educate pupils
which it often achieves to a high degree of success, the actual social
structure is counter to the abilities eventually self-learned by a freethinker
[e, f, g].

When a person that does not feel part of an institution and does not socialise
as readily with it, they are not as easily influenced by the institution they:
(h) criticise it and (i) differentiate themselves from it — often this means
the band geek buries themselves in music and the nerd starts to read science
text books in their spare time. While later on they are not handed the
opportunities that would have arisen from a high social status at school they
are: (j) less impeded by new hierarchies that they join, (k) now promoted
based on the merits that they fostered while on the fringes of the educational
institution.

On the contrary, the person that felt one with the institution and was
celebrated for conforming to the values of its social structure has now
learned behaviour that: (l) either brings no benefit to their existence in the
new hierarchies or (m) actually counts against them. Worst of all, since they
never learnt how to exist apart from a hierarchy (n) they prefer the security
of groups over the risk of trying to do things their own way, (o) are likely
to lack technical skills, (p) and might still be friends with the people they
grew up with in school which would create “stickyness”.

As a closing point, of course there are exceptions, for instance: there are
those with (q) leadership qualities and (r) high emotional intelligence that
were successul at school while also able to control their school experience to
their own long-term advantage. There are also many unsuccessful geeks and
nerds whom only gain (s) intellectual skills, (t) simply belonged to a much
worse-off social clique with the same problems, and most importantly (u) never
learn to socialise and take risks.

------
adamdecaf
_Many of the traits that correlate with “outsider” status among high school
students — originality, self-awareness, courage, resilience, integrity and
passion — reveal themselves as assets later in life._

Those are also useful, for well, anyone who is successful...

~~~
jkuria
Indeed! That line also struck me as nothing but feel good platitude! Most
nerds in high school lack self awareness, perhaps the reason they are social
awkward. Integrity and passion are unrelated to being socially well adjusted
and I'm not sure about courage and resilience!

------
demian
The fact that a some successful people are nerds, doesn't mean that every nerd
is going to be successful.

Not only this theory is not backed even by a simple correlation, but it
hastily extrapolate the USAs case to the world.

~~~
Locke1689
This theory is targeted directly at American high schools. There is no attempt
to extrapolate this to the rest of the world. If you're not from the US you
can view this as a curiosity, but it is not meant to be relevant to you.

------
sanswork
The author spoken about in the article that wrote the book about "quirk
theory" did an AMA on reddit not too long ago that you can find here
[http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/h2ajd/i_invented_quirk...](http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/h2ajd/i_invented_quirk_theory_and_was_a_guest_on/)

------
conradev
I like how 'nerd' is always associated with 'anti-social'. Doesn't a nerd's
success hinge on their ability to create social networks for themselves?

------
localhost3000
this "us against them" mentality seems to really be picking up steam these
days. it doesn't make sense to me. for every "successful" computer geek there
is a successful banker, lawyer, politician or any other traditionally
mainstream-sexy profession. CEOs tend to be extremely charismatic...not
exactly a trait associated with "revenge of the nerds."

this fixation on popularity seems to exist as strongly in the tech world as it
did in my high school. I mean, christ, our two biggest web services right now
(fb & tw) are entirely, "look at me! pay attention to me!"

~~~
Locke1689
Actually, most of the people in those positions tend to be well educated and
studious. This tends to not be popular in high school.

~~~
localhost3000
you haven't spent much time with wall street types, have you? It's a lot of
alpha-male, machismo, 'let's drink beers and tell dirty jokes' - which, in my
experience, is pretty much in line with being "cool" as an adolescent. Your
implication that being well-educated and popular are mutually exclusive is
just plain false, at least where I grew up...

~~~
Locke1689
I have spent a lot of time with them, actually, given that Northwestern's most
popular major is economics. I'm also in a frat and enjoy drinking beer and
telling dirty jokes with many of my finance-oriented brothers. Of course, when
the rubber meets the road and they have a statistics test the next day,
they're not out partying, they're studying all night with a big cup of coffee.

I would say that this kind of popularity is less common in high school,
though. Simply the fact that you care about school and study is likely to put
you into a separate group. College, however, is a different story.

------
clintjhill
Reading this made me think about the punk movement in music. In the beginning
it was about being different. Real punk was anything that your parents and
friends didn't like. It wasn't about the kind of music you were playing per
se, rather about your attitude. Commercially and socially it didn't really
take off. You can argue however that the attitude did. Some musicians started
to adapt to the attitude in order to take advantage of the small "movement".
Rebellion and individuality were what some went after.

Then punk became accepted. Then it even became commercial. Now you can't
recognize punk.

------
meow
Funny how the treatment varies across cultures. At least where I'm from, if
some one is getting good grades/considered to be geeky, there will be a lot of
"why can't you be more like him" comments from other parents.

~~~
billswift
"From other parents" sure. It's the _other kids_ that shut the geeks out. I
always got along with adults better than my "peers".

------
mhooks
I think it's important to tell nerds "it gets better." Better still, tell them
to get a GED, form a company, and sell a product. Go to college if you really
want to. Just get the hell out of HS.

High school is so jacked. I even went to the science/math/tech school. I never
got picked on, but forcing me into mandatory standardized classes made me hate
it. Unless you want the ivy league it's just not worth the time/risk. Since no
one there gives a shit about you or your future, why leave it in their hands?

~~~
zavulon
> I think it's important to tell nerds "it gets better." Better still, tell
> them to get a GED, form a company, and sell a product. Go to college if you
> really want to. Just get the hell out of HS.

If you're implying nerds should be home-schooled before college, I disagree.
As unfortunate situation as it is with high school being a big popularity
contest, if you acknowledge it and work hard on social skills, you can
succeed. Just have to spend time on sports and socializing, and not 100%
behind the computer. And if you enter college without any real-life social
skills, that's going to be a disaster.

The earlier in life you learn social skills, the better. When I have kids, I'm
definitely going to spend a lot of time teaching them that.

~~~
sid0
What do you consider as poor social skills, if I may ask? I spent most of my
time in high school behind the computer, and never played sports (I find
sports not mentally stimulating enough relative to the effort). I'm pretty
introverted, don't like associating with a large number of people, would
rather write code half the time and play video games half the time on a Friday
night than going out to a club, hate socializing, and simply cannot make small
talk.

However I'd be willing to talk about computers, maths, and philosophy and
logic all day long, and I also seem to be good at finding people who're
somewhat like me. Maybe it's just my luck, but through high school and
college, I've never not been able to find at least a few people who're
interested in most of the same stuff I'm interested in, even as my interests
have changed.

In other words, I'm a typical nerd with what would I suspect traditionally be
called poor social skills -- yet I'm pretty happy with whatever social skills
I have, and it's overall been far from a disaster.

edit: note that this wasn't an American high school, and I remember others
just letting me be.

~~~
usernamename
And why do you hack Pokemon homepages, POK3???

------
snikolov
I consider myself very lucky that 1) I've always been big and athletic since
elementary school and 2) that I went to a high school with other really smart
people where people were known and respected for being smart. Hence, I don't
really remember being picked on, except for a couple of minor instances in
elementary and middle school. I'm glad I could never relate to the
stereotypical midwestern US high school culture that's always on TV and in the
movies.

------
georgieporgie
_When students buckle under that weight, tragedies happen (the Columbine
shootings; the recent spate of suicides among gay teenagers)._

B.S. The Columbine shootings weren't the work of bullied nerds. It was the
work of two utter _assholes_. One guy was a cruel psychopath with a history of
violence (pipe bombs, known but not followed up on), the other guy was a
severely depressed loser who stupidly did whatever his 'friend' suggested.

They weren't lashing out at anything. They intended to commit the largest act
of domestic terrorism in U.S. history, and the only thing that stopped them
was their own incompetence.

Whoever wrote this article just perpetuated myths which reflect the standard
views of society: that bullied outcasts are the types who become murderous
assholes. If you have ever been been bullied, considered "weird," or an
outcast, you owe it to your younger counterparts to help dispel this myth.

[http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1032342...](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103234226)

There was hardly any real information following Columbine. Instead, noise was
bounced around between journalists and bloggers. It was like a giant game of
telephone. Soon, there was noise about bullying, about outcast kids, and even
the dangers of first-person shooters. The scary thing is that _none_ of this
was based on facts, it was just social bias revealing itself in an echo
chamber! Instead of following up on known violent tendencies (which would have
prevented Columbine in the first place), misinformed school administrators
across the country began targeting kids who were already the target of
mistreatment by their peers. It's bad enough to have the stigma of the weird,
nerdy kid, but to add arbitrary suspicions that you may be a murderer is
unconscionable.

~~~
xiaoma
Did you know any of the people involved or live in Littleton at the time?
What's your source of expertise on this subject?

I find it very reasonable that even people with a predisposition towards
violence are strongly affected by how they're treated. How would having coins
thrown at you by the popular kids and regularly taunted not have an effect?

~~~
georgieporgie
See the NPR link and the associated book.

