
The Benefits of Exercising Before Breakfast - robg
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/phys-ed-the-benefits-of-exercising-before-breakfast/
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robchez
This is hardly amazing to anyone who fasts regularly. I saw increases in all
my major lifts when I train fasted and eat plenty of good fat (60% of total
kcal).

I would love to get a hold of the full study for a better look at it.

Edit:

Reading this article a bit closer, and taking to look at the study, it is
clear that the author has some serious bias against the idea that a high-fat
diet with fasted training will be of benefit. The people who lost weight were
eating 30% more than usual. If they modified there diet to 50% of fat, and not
increased calories, you would have seen an even great weight drop.

~~~
sliverstorm
'fast' is a terrible word, IMHO. Denying yourself food for a handful of hours
is not the same as denying yourself food for several days, and yet both are
considered fasting.

How long were the fasts you took? I am curious because my lifts suffer when I
have not eaten breakfast, and I'm pretty sure it's because of the exhausted
feeling in my muscles, which I attribute to the lack of food.

~~~
robchez
denying yourself food for days is starving not fasting HaHa.

I fast every day, 16-19 hrs at a time. I train completely for strength rather
than endurance, so lift super heavy for 4-5. Max 2-3 sets. If you are going
for muscle endurance (8reps+) then some food prior to training.

~~~
bumbledraven
How close to your workout is your eating window? I was doing 23/1 intermittent
fasting and my coach told me it would interfere with my strength training. I'm
also training for strength/max lifts, not endurance.

~~~
robchez
Straight after. I will train, have a shower then eat. My window is generally
4-8 hours depending how full I get.

I have seen only improvement in my lifts since I started this regimen. Lost
some serious bodyfat % whilst gained muscle.

~~~
aik
Mind if I ask what your motivation is for training strictly for strength and
not endurance?

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thesz
My own reason is that training for strength stimulates your body to produce
testosterone, which stimulate logical thinking, among other things.

Low level of testosterone found to be one of reasons of men's depression.

~~~
awi
I'm pretty sure aerobic exercise is better for the brain than strength
training. Aerobic exercise increases oxygen flow to the brain and it directly
improves creation and survival of neurons. Effectively it acts as a drug for
your brain.

It has the additional benefit that it alters your mood, aerobic exercise makes
you happy :)

Strength training may boost testosterone, but the effects of aerobic exercise
is well established. Several comparisons have been done between aerobic and
strength training and the conclusions have been that strength training have
little effect on executive function.

My source for this is the book "Brain Rules" by John Medina [1]. Also check
out his presentation on exercise [2] and his Authors@Google talk [3].

[1] <http://www.brainrules.net> [2] <http://www.brainrules.net/exercise> [3]
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK1nMQq67VI>

~~~
oostevo
I'm really struggling to think of a strength training scenario where your
heart rate wouldn't be elevated (thus increasing blood flow). Consider a max.
back squat, where all your muscles are contracting to the maximum degree that
they can for several seconds. I'd say that'll make your heart pump.

(Thanks for the citations. That's awesome, and I wish more people would do
it.)

~~~
jacques_chester
Weight training and cardio training have different effects on the heart.
Weight training forces the heart to pump against resistance, leadening to a
thickening of aorta walls. Cardio requires blood to be circulated more
frequently, leading to an enlargement of some heart chambers.

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DrStalker
I've dropped 20kg (44lb) since august, and I have found that eating well has a
much much greater effect than exercise does. I've kept track daily of both
weight and key tasks:

[http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArDlY2B14P1IdFA2NElD...](http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArDlY2B14P1IdFA2NElDaV9VbDV5RlBPOGdpOHRXTUE&hl=en_GB)

It's pretty easy to see the exercise has died down to just enough to keep
metabalism up, but the weight loss has been very steady. There's been no
difference for me between pre-breakfast and post-dinner exercise, but huge
difference based on what I eat and when.

I would expect different results if I was trying to burn calories directly
through exercise, but I spent a month planning how to lose weight without
spending lots of time in the gym because I knew I wouldn't stick to that :-)

~~~
eru
Interesting spreadsheet and congratulation on your dietary improvements!

Exercise doesn't really help you with losing weight, but it helps you with
losing fat and/or gaining muscle.

In the last few months I've exercised a lot and ate a lot. I've gained around
7kg of mostly muscles.

I don't know whether losing weight is a useful goal at all. Aiming to lose
body fat while keeping lean body weight (=muscles, bones, everything that
isn't fat) seems much more sane to me.

~~~
DrStalker
Starting from a BMI of 40 there's no way I'd attempt to put on that much lean
muscle. :-)

~~~
eru
Yes. Have you considered also tracking your abdominal girth? I read about some
studies showing that this (or the ratio of abdominal girth to hip
circumference to make it work between different people) is a better indicator
of health.

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StavrosK
I saw a comment on reddit the other day, which I don't remember exactly, but
it said (paraphrasing):

"In the morning (when waking up after a night's sleep), your <something>
reserves are depleted so exercising before you eat will burn fat (no, you
won't burn muscle)."

It seems to me that the commenter knew about this effect just fine.

~~~
detst
This comment was also made here on HN not long ago (maybe that's where you
read it). I believe someone also stated that it's not good for your back to
exercise too soon after waking.

I believe your "<something>" is glycogen. The basic idea being that if you
have no glycogen to burn, you'll burn fat.

~~~
StavrosK
I am 99% sure that they did say glycogen. It was glyco-something, anyway. It
might have been on HN, although I think I remember fittit. Regardless, that's
not important.

Also, it's probably true that it's not very good to exercise after waking, but
nobody said you have to exercise after waking, just that you have to do it
before eating breakfast :)

~~~
DrStalker
glycogen is your short-term in muscle energy storage.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis#Metabolic_pathways> explains why
exertion with no glycogen burns fat.

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sliverstorm
Come to think of it, this makes sense historically speaking. You can't eat it
until you catch it.

~~~
zoomzoom
I don't mean to offend, because I know that you mean well with this line of
thinking. But it seems really silly to think that our cellular metabolism
evolved in conjunction with the imagined hunting patterns of a proto-human.
Cellular metabolism is a much older process.

Also, the human body did not evolve to perform best when fasting. Certainly we
have adrenaline for "kill" moments, but I would bet that eating before a long
physical challenge would increase performance during that challenge. You might
bur more fat if you don't eat, but I don't think we evolved to burn fat -
rather the opposite seems more likely.

~~~
awolf
I really encourage you to do some research on evolutionary biology. Almost
everything you said here is wrong.

It's only very recently in human history with the advent of agriculture that
large amounts of grains and legumes becme available for human consumption.
99.5% of our human existence was spent as hunter-gatherers surviving on mostly
meat.

~~~
zoomzoom
hm, not sure what I said about eating meat vs grains.

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tomjen3
While this is interesting research, I hope they would use their time to focus
on how to get these benefits without the exercise part. It's pretty clear at
this point that no matter what people will not exercise, no matter how many
times we hear about how smart it is.

Imagine the shear number of people that would help.

~~~
lsb
As hackermom said above, "exercise" doesn't have to be some boring gym
workout; cycling or running to work is exercise too, and makes for a far more
awesome commute (if you live within 10 miles of work).

~~~
eru
Yes. Also I find short and intensive freeweight exercise to be much more
bearable than endless cardio.

~~~
jules
But that doesn't burn as many calories does it?

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eru
I don't know. I exercise for gaining strength, not for burning energy. Look up
High Intensity Interval Training to see how short high-intensity bursts
compare to long low-intensity efforts (i.e. cardio).

(For the lazy: <http://duckduckgo.com/High-intensity_interval_training>)

Gaining more muscles does raise your base metabolic rate, though.

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discreteevent
Like a lot of these studies they are only measuring one factor - fat
gained/retained. So as usual its good to remind oneself to take it with a
grain of salt and always keep a sharp eye on what works best for you overall.
It beats waiting for some new study next year saying that people over 40 who
exercise heavily without eating anything are twice as likely to have a heart
attack or whatever. I know that if I go for a run first thing in the morning
when its quite cold in winter without having anything to eat at all I can feel
pretty bad for the rest of the day in comparison with (on a weekend) eating
some breakfast and waiting for about an hour before I go out. In my case I
usually pay attention more to how I feel rather than the results of some
study.

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threejay
I delivered newspapers from the ages of 8-18 every morning from 5a-6a. I was
skinny as a rail and had more mental clarity than anytime since. If only I
could go back to those days...

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skizm
For added fun wash your mouth with a carbohydrate solution (don't swallow)
before exercising: [http://journals.lww.com/acsm-
msse/Abstract/2004/12000/The_Ef...](http://journals.lww.com/acsm-
msse/Abstract/2004/12000/The_Effect_of_Carbohydrate_Mouth_Rinse_on_1_h.17.aspx)

~~~
threejay
Using a cho based mouthwash is pretty much asking for dental carries. Couple
that with a little exercise induced xerostomia and you should be good to go.

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mickdarling
I am finally able to do regular workouts after recovering from a slipped disk.
But, the weight I have put on in the intervening time is hard to work off,
especially this time of year.

So I am going to try this and see if it improves my burn rate, or at least
slows my girth rate. :-)

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dave1619
Wow, this is amazing. I'd love to try it out, but I'm not sure what I can do
in the morning before breakfast. Maybe stationary bicycle. Anybody exercising
before breakfast? What kind of exercise are you doing?

~~~
chime
Get a good elliptical. It will work out your entire body (unlike stationary
bikes) and not hurt in case you have knee problems (like treadmills). Put the
elliptical in front of TV if you like and do 30-45mins every other day. I was
193lbs in August. I'm 174lbs now. Though I'd say I'm more of an exception
because I gain/lose weight really fast. Nevertheless, I highly recommend a
good elliptical - both my wife and I love the one we got.

~~~
artmageddon
Each machine has its strengths and weaknesses. I find that stationary bikes
tend to get really uncomfortable after awhile, too. My posture isn't the best
and I feel like I suffer on a bike because of the hunching I feel like I have
to do in order to grip the bars in front of me. It's also worth mentioning
that a mediocre seat can definitely be painful after a period of time.

In the bike's defense: as a runner, spinning on the bike is an absolutely
awesome to maintain cardio-fitness after a running injury.

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jules
For the people who do strength training: how much do you exercise and how
quick are the results? (in kg of muscle/year or in strength improvement or
whatever is the standard)

~~~
jacques_chester
I train 3 to 5 times per week (Olympic lifting). Like most people I had a
period of fast improvement which is tapering now.

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dreaming
Presumably I can get similar benefits for exercising just before dinner?
Morning exercise is about the last thing I want to do...

~~~
jamesbritt
"Morning exercise is about the last thing I want to do..."

It's almost the last thing I want to do. The last thing I want to do is
exercise after I've started my day. I simply never do it.

Good to hear about eating _after_ exercising, too, since I have to go running
first thing when I get up. If I first have coffee or eat breakfast I lose all
my "go running!" magic power due to the mysterious hypnotic beams emanating
from my laptop.

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nolite
Sounds great if you're looking to finish your workout with a hypoglycemic
attack.. fun fun

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jamesaguilar
I wonder if this also applies to exercising right before dinner, which is what
I do.

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rkwz
After exercising, how long should one wait till breakfast?

~~~
matwood
Only as long as you need to wait to feel comfortable eating. With weight
training I usually drink a post workout shake high in carbs and protein then
within the hour eat a well rounded meal.

~~~
rkwz
_> >Only as long as you need to wait to feel comfortable eating._

Could you please elaborate a little bit? It sounds a little vague to me.

~~~
danielh
Some people can eat something immediately after exercising, some can't.

When I run in the morning I usually rest for a few minutes to cool down, take
a shower and then have breakfast. But you can eat immediately after you
finished exercising if you feel like it.

~~~
jules
If the theory is right it's better to wait longer, as it takes time for your
body to re-stock the glycogen reserves. So you are still burning fat after you
finished exercising.

~~~
matwood
What you're getting into now is EPOC and used to be thought to be caused by
HIIT. Basically, doing short bouts of high intensity exercise you could drain
your glycogen reserves and raise your base metabolism (and thus calorie
burning) over the course of 12-24 hours. This theory has been mostly debunked.

Also, keep in mind that while depleting your glycogen stores may help your
body focus on using fat instead of other sources of energy during exercise, it
doesn't change the fact that the only way to lose weight is to eat less than
you use. Too many people look at these studies (GI, insulin response, and HFCS
immediately come to mind) as silver bullets. The only real silver bullet is
eat less than you use. There was an article not long ago about a guy who only
ate twinkies and lost weight by counting calories.

Physically, losing weight is pretty basic stuff, but it's so hard to do
because it requires a tough combination of mental and emotional skills and
often requires people to change their deep seated (often decades long)
relationship with food.

~~~
jules
I completely agree, I'm just saying that if the theory is correct, then this
is probably a consequence. I can think of a reason why you'd lose weight by
eating later: now your body burns your fat to replenish your glycogen levels,
and later when you eat it stores the food in fat. This may well be less energy
efficient than eating right after exercise and replenishing your glycogen
levels with food.

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hackermom
This is no news, really; in fact, we were even taught this part in basic
metabolism in biology class in 7th grade. In the morning, the body has
depleted its reserve of "immediate energy" in the blood stream and tissue -
glycogen, mostly, assuming you have a carbohydrate-rich diet - and will
instead have to source energy by instantly burning your fat deposits if you
call upon the body to do so by increasing your heart rate and breathing etc.
(read: exercise - even a 30 minute walk will do the trick). This is called
lipolysis, btw., and is a fundamental part of the human metabolical system.
Remember: the human body is _primarily_ a FAT-BURNING MACHINE.

add.: Someone sitting next to me as I wrote this asked me, "how long ago was
7th grade?", as a reference of how "re-inventive" this study was. 7th grade
was 17 years ago.

~~~
eru
> the human body is primarily a FAT-BURNING MACHINE.

How would our metabolism have to be different for you to come to a different
conclusion?

(I just want to know, how strong your statement is.)

~~~
hackermom
Lipolysis is the inherit, main metabolical function of our liver and muscle
cells. We cannot make use of monosaccharids without "switching" our cells into
another mode. This is done by the pancreas secreting a hormone, insulin, into
our blood stream; the hormone signals to our cells to stop burning fat and
just store it instead, in order to focus on processing the sugar in the blood
to prevent a sugar coma. Sugar is in essence a poison in the blood stream, and
a too high presence of it will end your life at shortest within minutes. Also,
we cannot store sugar for any mentionable duration of time - it's not a long-
term energy source the way fat is. This is also the case for almost all other
animals on the planet, mammals in particular. If the roles of sugar and fat
would be reversed - sugar being storable, lipolysis needing to be acquired
through switching of cell function - we could come to a different conclusion.

Today we have empirical evidence, through years of study of people living on
rigorous LCHF diets, that the human body does not require a single gram of
sugar a day to function; it can slowly adapt and switch entirely, both brain,
core and limbs, into being solely a fat- and protein-consuming machine. We can
from this perspective consider sugars as being available as an alternate form
of energy that we can process by secondary function, at a cost - the cost of
insulin in our blood stream, and all the problems that can come with the
production of such (various cardiovascular diseases have been linked to this,
as well as the cases of insulin resistance and lack of insulin production from
the pancreas from being "burnt out" being the two major problems).

~~~
eru
Thanks!

