
An Atheist's Glimpse of God - lut4rp
http://blog.deobald.ca/2013/02/an-atheists-glimpse-of-god.html
======
btilly
Disclaimers. I am also an atheist. I took this exact meditation course 20+
years ago and know people who have followed it for decades. I am not so
enthralled.

The meditation itself is fine. However the problem is in the tapes. Goenka is
not just trying to teach people to meditate, he's trying to teach a particular
religious philosophy. He doesn't want you to just be aware of your body, he
wants you to pay attention to how things arise and pass away, and from that
conclude that all attachment is bad because you will feel grief when it
passes. This ties into Buddhist philosophy.

To me the problem with this philosophy can be summed up by, _'Tis better to
have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.'_ I was fascinated by
the experience, but receiving indoctrination while I was in such a delicate
state was not to my liking.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
As things are right now, any meditation technique worth the effort is coming
from one or another religious background. So there is going to be some
infusion of dogmatic elements into it. At least some schools are honest about
it and tell you to feel free and ignore the mythology and focus on the
psychological work.

I practice a different meditation system, and they have their own dogma
attached to it. I found that whether I "believe" in it or not is irrelevant.
Meditation itself is far too fascinating to get distracted with extras.

Another way to look at it is that some dogmatic aspects may not represent
literal truths, but are metaphors for certain psychological aspects occurring
in meditation or as an effect of it. This appears to be a very appropriate
interpretation for many pantheons - heck, even the Greek gods are quite
obviously representations of states of consciousness and functions of the
mind, and the ancient greeks were not exactly famous for their meditation
techniques.

~~~
nimblegorilla
I've been doing transcendental meditation. I imagine its roots are from a
"religious background", but I don't feel like there are any religious
elements. There are only a few dogmatic rules such as don't eat 2 hours
before/after meditating.

~~~
macknowledge
There is a recommendation to wait a while after eating until the main
digestion is completed before meditating. But there is no recommendation to
wait any time after meditating before eating.

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EvilTerran
Very interesting. Incidentally, I do like:

 _Ninety percent of Maslow's pyramid has been taken care of for as long as I
could remember, leaving me to arrogantly believe it's my responsibility to
improve this world_

\-- that resembles a feeling that often brings me angst, but I always struggle
to put into words.

~~~
javert
Disclaimer: I haven't actually read Maslow's original work.

Looking at Maslow's pyramid, way more than 10% of it has to do with very
abstract stuff. Given what the author has written, he almost by definition
hasn't achieved "self-actualization" in the sense Maslow means. He almost by
definition hasn't achieved 90% of the pyramid.

Only a small part of the pyramid has to do with food, shelter, clothing, and
having people to socialize with.

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geon
I like to run once a week or so. It helps me shed a lot of stress, and is
supposed to be good for me.

At first I hated it. But then I began bringing my iPhone and listen to music.
I mostly listen to electronic dance music, but there was a specific genre that
I found worked well for runnig; Trance.

There is one "song" that illustrates this very well. It is 9.5 minutes of very
monotonous, slowly building "umm-tss".
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yOJsjyq_GsE#t=26s)

There is a reason for that name. I found that this music, in combination with
the deep breathing in coordination with my steps sort of lets me enter a state
of trance. I can empty my mind and just _be_. Stress over deadlines and
finances - and even stress over being stressed - pretty much are gone when I
get back home.

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jdietrich
Sensory deprivation is known to cause hallucinations, often within a matter of
minutes. People are primed to believe that sensory deprivation in the form of
meditation provides profound insights, so they do. If you force a prisoner to
sit still for several hours in a silent room as punishment, they perceive it
to be a dreadful torture.

It's mystical nonsense. "I did a thing that made me feel better" is a
perfectly legitimate statement. "I did a thing and believe it to be deeply
profound and meaningful in ways I cannot articulate" really isn't the sort of
thing we usually countenance on HN, because it's a line of thinking that we
recognise to be dangerous.

For various cultural reasons, mainly ignorance, rationalists are unusually
tolerant of Buddhist nonsense, often believing it to be essentially benign. If
you know anything of the history of south-east Asia, you will know how foolish
that error is. I rather doubt that a post extolling the virtues of Islamic or
Christian monasticism with such breathless naivete would have garnered so many
upvotes.

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kalmar
Tip for the impatient: click 'Start' multiple times for a shorter ten minutes.

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jeremyarussell
Meditation is one of the things that most people should do, it enlightens you
as to your faults, bringing them to light so that you may change yourself for
the better. It's also nothing to do with making you superior to other
people(if it is you have other issues that won't work themselves out until you
learn some empathy.)

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gee_totes
For those of you looking for a place to go on a similar 10 day retreat, there
is:

Northwest Vipassana Center (PNW Region, I've heard really good things about
this one from friends who have done the program)
<http://www.kunja.dhamma.org/>

Dhamma Manda (Near SF) <http://www.manda.dhamma.org/>

The closest one to NYC I can find is in Mass:
<http://www.dhara.dhamma.org/ns/>

For more info on locations near you:

<http://courses.dhamma.org/en/maps/001>

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vlokshin
I hate to be "that guy", but clicking your timer more than once seems to be
cutting the intervals down each time (ex: click it 10 times, and it goes crazy
fast).

I only say this because I love that you actually went ahead and embedded a
timer in your post -- knowing that the process of reading and absorbing the
content was just as important, if not more important, than the content itself.

Regardless, great post.

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dsowers
I enjoyed your article. Thanks. Makes me want to try meditation again. (I've
attempted it a few times)

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f1codz
Thanks for sharing this amazing experience. I have been wanting to do this
same very course myself.

Even today evening I was thinking of just this.

Your experience has inspired me even more. I believe i must stop thinking and
just plan go at the next best available free time.

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lotsofcows
Basic brain washing routine. You want a religion. Just pick one. Stop trying
to convince yourself you're rational. You're a human being: you're not
rational. Irritating post. Why the hell did I read this?

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hnriot
Self contradictory title. Once again we're mixing up chemical imbalances
(however induced) with this notion of a Creator. If there really is this God
thing, then do you really think they give a damn about you sitting on hot
rocks? If you do, then you've really missed the point of it all. If you don't
then you'll quickly realize you're just wasting your time, the most precious
resource you have.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
Not all speech is literal.

I find myself making this admonition over and over again, when speaking to
folks in the computer industry. Occupational hazard, I guess.

~~~
hnriot
even if you read it metaphorically, it makes the same amount of sense.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
to you.

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agentultra
So you sat on some stones under extreme physical duress. Congratulations. Your
puny mammalian brain acted in a manner dysfunctional from its normal operating
environment. Now you can go to parties and feel even more superior to your
friends. They won't get it of course because there's no way for you to
accurately explain it to them.

~~~
SageRaven
Why so dismissive? Religious or feel-good benefits aside from the 100-hour
regimen, the guys deserves kudos merely for sticking with the exercise to its
conclusion. Even without the discomfort, sitting/standing/whatever for 10
hours a day doing _nothing_ physically takes some dedication.

I find his experience amazing on so many levels, and I am gracious for such a
intimate account of that experience (I read the full-on article he
references).

~~~
hnriot
* the guys deserves kudos merely for sticking with the exercise to its conclusion

why? If I pierce my scrotum a hundred times should I get kudos? No of course
not, just doing something uncomfortable for no reason isn't admirable.

Meditation is great for some people, and a total waste of time for others.
Each to their own, but let's not pat anyone on the back for it.

~~~
gee_totes
I would totally give you kudos for piercing your scrotum a hundred times. From
the people I know in the body modification community, genital modification can
be a very spiritual experience.

Also, think of the crazy rush that you would get from the first piercing, when
your body is changed forever, till the end of the hundred-piercing ritual.
That would absolutely be something worth blogging about.

