
2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV - jseliger
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-test-review
======
simonsarris
> PRICE AS TESTED: $43,905 (base price: $37,495)

> can be had for _less than the price of the average new car._

Emphasis mine and obviously they are factoring in the $7,500 tax credit which
I guess is fine.

I dislike this "price of the average new car" line and it gets repeated a lot.
Car manufacturers must love it since it tries to normalize that price as
"average" when its not very representative. Grand total "average new car"
price that the media is using everywhere is $33,666, but that's only because
of the average price of luxury cars and trucks driving the number way, way up.
There's a breakdown by sector in KBB's numbers:

[http://mediaroom.kbb.com/new-car-transaction-prices-
up-2-per...](http://mediaroom.kbb.com/new-car-transaction-prices-up-2-percent-
march-2016)

Scroll down to the second table for more realistic numbers. At any rate the
_median_ new car price, if we could get it, would be much more telling. Sadly
I can't find it anywhere.

After the tax credit the base model is the average cost of a Mid-size Pickup
Truck ($30,045) or average cost of a sports car ($30,712)

But well above the average cost of a mid size car ($25,095) or crossover
($27,056) or subcompact ($17,218)

~~~
mevile
What is amazing to me considering these numbers is that there are enough
people buying new cars every year to keep all these car manufacturers around.
I'm a pretty decently employed individual, doing better than most my family
and I've only bought one new car ten years ago for $15K a Mazda 3. Who are all
these people buying new cars all the time?

~~~
linkregister
I'm going to do some cocktail napkin math and see if it makes any sense.

The total amount of new vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2015 was 17.5 million
[1]. Since the average is $33666, we can assume half are above, and half are
below that price. In reality, there are far fewer than half above that price,
since an outsized sale price pushes that average up.

Half of 17.5 million is 8.75 million. The U.S. Census estimates the 2015
population was 323,995,528 [2], with 116,211,092 households [3]. With every
household replacing their car every five years or so (total guess), that
leaves us 23.2 million households that should have been buying a car in 2015.
That means that about 37.7% of the eligible U.S. households bought a car worth
over $33666.

That is bizarre enough that it leads me to believe there is a serious fault in
my methodology or it just so happened that car sales were abnormally high in
2015 due to an enormous rise in consumer confidence. Either way, I'm more
confused now than when I started scribbling on my metaphorical cocktail
napkin.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awsj.com+U.S.+Car+Sale...](https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awsj.com+U.S.+Car+Sales+Set+Record+in+2015)

[2] [https://www.census.gov/popclock/](https://www.census.gov/popclock/)

[3] [https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/)

~~~
smallnamespace
This is a classic market sizing question that you would get asked in any
consulting interview.

I didn't understand why you split the market into 'above-average' and 'below-
average' prices though? I highly doubt the distribution is symmetric -- most
of the probability mass is probably in cheaper cars, and there are smaller
numbers of very expensive luxury vehicles pulling up the average price [1]. In
that case, a much smaller number of households buy the 'above-mean-price'
vehicles. Also, wealthy households tend to replace their cars more frequently;
luxury car dealerships do much of their business in rolling people over every
3 years into a new vehicle lease.

In any case, 116mm / 17.5mm cars per annum households is 6.6 years per car per
household, which seems totally reasonable to me since many households own
multiple vehicles, and many vehicles are owned outside of households.

[1] [http://fortune.com/2015/02/17/luxury-car-
sales/](http://fortune.com/2015/02/17/luxury-car-sales/) \- 'Top-shelf brands,
with cars generally selling for more than $40,000, represent a big and growing
slice of the car business. They now account for 11% of total new car sales,
when measured by number of units sold'

~~~
pault
How does one size a market? I've always been curious about this. Where do you
go looking for the data? Are there any biz-dev people that could point me
towards some introductory material?

~~~
smallnamespace
One common technique is to use basic demographic estimates:
[https://www.preplounge.com/en/bootcamp.php/case-cracking-
too...](https://www.preplounge.com/en/bootcamp.php/case-cracking-
toolbox/identify-your-case-type/market-sizing)

In a real interview, you normally wouldn't have access to a calculator or a
computer. The point is to show you can arrive within a factor of 2-3x of the
actual real-life answer just by smart guesstimating and doing arithmetic in
your head.

One reason is because consultants often get asked these sorts of on-the-fly
questions by clients, and they need to provide reasonable answers _without_
looking them up.

~~~
Klinky
Is testing who can sound the most competent while pulling a number out of
their ass really the best test to determine the right candidate? There are
good consultants out there, but there are also the horror stories.

~~~
smallnamespace
For better or worse, consultants are often paid by clients for _sounding_ like
the smartest person in the room. Bullshitting convincingly is very much part
of the job.

Anyway, if the technique is good enough for Fermi [1] or Drake [2], what's the
problem?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation)

~~~
Klinky
Fermi questions can be polarizing, especially for precision/accuracy focused
individuals. Beware. Drake equation has its criticisms, and ET has yet to
phone home.

------
djrogers
> A 10.2-inch touchscreen is standard equipment, but a navigation system isn’t
> offered. Instead, you’ll have to rely on a connected phone to pull up
> Android Auto or Apple CarPlay.

Hallelujah! I really hope the rest of the manufacturers and their car lines
come around to this model. I know they make more $$ on their $2000 nav
packages, but people are rejecting them in droves because they are horrible
and need to be updated through clunky, often expensive processes.

~~~
wlesieutre
Agreed. Even people who _have_ nav systems built into their cars still use
their phones instead.

[http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/10/autos/car-navigation-
frustra...](http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/10/autos/car-navigation-frustration/)

The phone navigation apps are made by software companies who actually have to
compete with each other to make the best system. Compare to car nav systems
where you only have one option, and the comparison of navigation systems
between different cars is going to be a _very very_ small factor in which car
you end up buying. You buy the car you want and take whatever you get for
navigation.

Car manufacturers (to generalize a bit) are not particularly good at software,
and do not have much incentive to get better at it.

~~~
vkou
You'll love using your phone for navigation, until you go to Canada, where you
don't have data. (Or affordable data.)

I have a 2010 Prius, and I'm quite happy with its built-in navigation. Its UI
is worse at first-time address entry, but is substantially better for... Just
about everything else.

~~~
cbhl
Rogers is expensive, but what you're paying that 2x premium for is the cell
phone towers in the rural parts of the country. The one time I saw download
speeds on my cell phone approach the maximum theoretical was on a highway in
the middle of nowhere in Ontario where I was probably the only person using
that cell phone tower. If you live in an urban area and don't need the
coverage, you can get a reasonable "unlimited" plan from WIND Mobile for $60
CAD/month.

~~~
vkou
This is great advice for a Canadian who needs cellphone coverage. This is not
great advice for an American who is visiting. (The best advice for that
situation is ordering a pre-paid SIM card. Or not using your phone for
navigation.)

~~~
cbhl
If you're visting from the US:

T-Mobile ONE gives you unlimited* 4G LTE data in Canada and Mexico, and
throttles you to 128kbps in ~140 other countries (enough to get basic maps).

Their previous plan, Simple Choice, would throttle you to 2G speeds when you
were in Canada, but it was still enough to use Maps.

If you're a long-term visitor, then, yes, you should just get a local prepaid
SIM from Rogers.

Disclaimer: I'm a T-mobile customer.

------
Someone1234
The Bolt may work in terms of range and charging but it remains impractical
for most of the general public.

A Bolt costs roughly $32K (depending on incentives, maybe more). A Toyota
Camry Hybrid starts at $26,790. And, I know what you're going to say,
"electricity is free!" That's just untrue. Recharging electric cars is far
from free.

The Bolt costs roughly $10 to recharge its 238 mile battery. A Camry Hybrid
can drive approx 680 miles on a full tank and costs $37 to completely refill.
So you're saving about $8 per every 680 miles you drive.

So the breakeven for the cost difference of the two vehicles (@$5,210) is
442,850 miles. Neither car is going to make it to 400K miles, so therefore you
won't make your money back from a Bolt.

PS - Yes, my post uses tons of assumptions: Incentives for the Bolt, cost of
electricity, cost of gas, average miles figures, and so on. You cannot make a
post about this topic without doing so. Feel free to pick particular
figures/assumptions apart, but pointing out "this is all based on estimates!"
isn't very constructive within itself.

~~~
runjake
How did you arrive at it costing $10 to recharge its 238 mile battery?

That seems way high.

For your post to matter, you should really cite figures or at least detail
your math a bit.

~~~
illumin8
I think his numbers are too high as well. I pay $0.2 per kilowatt hour, and
live in one of the most expensive electricity areas in the country. To
completely charge the 60 kw/hour battery it will cost me only $12.

In many parts of the country, power is much, much cheaper than mine. My friend
pays less than $0.10 per kw/h in Georgia, which also has a $5,000 state
subsidy (on top of the $7,500 federal subsidy).

Do the math with $6 full charge cost and a $12,500 subsidy and it quickly
turns in the EVs favor...

~~~
jsymolon
> live in one of the most expensive

At .02 ? Nope

Annual Average Price per Kilowatthour by State 46 Connecticut 17.76 47 Alaska
17.94 48 Hawaii 26.17

~~~
illumin8
I live in CT, and yes, it's 0.2 not 0.02.

------
dmalvarado
> "EVs often require a warm-up period before they can deliver maximum regen
> braking. Tesla gives the driver a warning when full regenerative braking is
> unavailable. Chevrolet doesn’t do so. This can be alarming to the driver who
> lifts off the right pedal expecting significant deceleration and gets
> virtually none"

Whoa, inconsistent brake feel? That's kind of terrifying. You'd think Chevy
would calibrate the brake feel across states.

~~~
outworlder
This is wrong. There's no warmup period.

What there is is that, if the battery is completely full, the energy has
nowhere to go. So the car does not use full regen. This could be mistaken for
a "warmup".

As another poster commented, this changes the accelerator feel, not the
brakes.

~~~
bluehawk
I disagree completely. Sure, the change in feel is related to the accelerator,
but it's the slowing down of the car that changes. In a gasoline car that
would be referred to as "engine braking". Imagine if in your gas car, when the
tank was full, it didn't engine brake. I can imagine people getting caught off
guard when the car didn't slow down like they expect.

Muscle memory is very important, and having the car behave unexpectedly is
bad.

~~~
outworlder
For non-Tesla cars, the effect is really minimal. As in, noone expects to
actually "break" at a stop light with the regen only. Yes, I have tried, even
with the Leaf's "B" mode, which increases regen.

I've heard that the Tesla's regen is so aggressive that it will even turn on
the brake lights. In that case then, I agree.

------
jacquesm
One of the first things EV manufacturers will have to take care of is
standardization of their fast charging networks so that the network of one
manufacturer can be used by cars from another. If they don't get that worked
out it will be a huge stumbling block to EV adoption.

It's being worked on (there were some talks between Tesla and a French
manufacturer) but it isn't there yet.

~~~
Cshelton
Yup, we will have a world with many adapters. I don't think it'll be a big of
a problem though.

Also, Tesla has already done so much for any car manufacturer:

\- They have made all patents free to use by anyone. \- Elon has stated that
he would welcome other car makers to join in on the Tesla Supercharger network
if they are willing to contribute in an equal manner.

Seeing as Tesla has more Evs on the road than anyone else by a large
magnitude, and they have proven their charging network far more than anybody
else, it's odd nobody else wants to join in. But that's Wall Street for you.
Nothing will be given away "free", and we can't be seen working with the
competition. Despite many of the 'shareholders' are institutions who likely
would own shares of both companies regardless. And at the end of the day, Wall
Street is a secondary market that should mean jack.

Hell, the only reason other companies are now pushing for EVs so much is
because Tesla lit a fire under everyone else and despite Wall Street betting
against them (high volume of shorts), Tesla is now the top selling luxury
sedan in the U.S. Now everyone else is scrambling. We will see one or two
major automotive companies that have been prominent in the last century fall.
They will either A. not keep up with the EV world (maybe they receive too much
money from the fossil fuel industry) or B. Their tech will not keep up and/or
fail and they will lose all their competitiveness.

~~~
honkhonkpants
"Seeing as Tesla has more Evs on the road than anyone else by a large
magnitude"

The Chevy Volt is the most common plug-in electric car. Tesla is 3rd behind
Nissan in cumulative sales.

~~~
Cshelton
First, the Volt has a combustion engine. That does not qualify it as a
comparison to a Tesla or a Chevy Bolt.

Second, not sure where you are getting your numbers, but both the Model S has
sold more than the leaf, add in the Model X, which is also out selling the
leaf A LOT in 2016 and it's not even close. Also, people are dumping their
leafs so quickly, most of them are sitting in used car lots which they are
having to slash the price of them so much just to move them.

~~~
outworlder
It is electric. It just happens to haul a generator too.

------
leecarraher
"However, the exponential effects of aerodynamic drag"

quadratic? otherwise we're in trouble

~~~
aetherson
People in informal language constantly use "exponential" to mean "more than
linear." Which drives me completely insane, but I think it's time to just
accept it.

~~~
xutopia
Maybe you can explain it for the ignorant masses in terms we would understand?
:D

~~~
distortedsignal
Linear: n * x^1

Quadratic: n * x^2

Exponential: x^n

In all cases, x is assumed to be a variable, and n should be assumed to be a
constant > 1.

If you pick the same value for n and put these functions into El goog, the
answer should become fairly clear.

~~~
Dylan16807
That's not right at all. Exponential is constant^x.

Also you can put "n *" in front of all of them if you want, but multiplying by
a constant is usually omitted because it doesn't affect the shape of the
graph.

------
BBTN6
For many people this won't have the mythos or upstart appeal of the upcoming
Tesla Model 3-- and that's a shame, cause they did a real good job on it.

Yet I do believe the 200+ mile range and price will get enough people in one
and really start to shift the EV from being an early adopter accessory to a
viable everyday car.

Good on ya, GM.

~~~
herpderpherpder
EV are only viable for those who own their own homes. Many electric vehicles
have been adequate for my needs, but I continue to drive a car with an
internal combustion engine because I can always buy gas.

My apartment building has two EV charging stations (always taken) and my work
has 9 (always taken).

I don't think vehicle technology or execution has been the limiting factor for
a while.

~~~
BBTN6
Regardless of the rationality, people have range anxiety. (Cue stat about how
majority of drivers go <40mi a day).

200mi+ is the threshold that will make a lot of people feel completely
comfortable using an EV day-in and day-out.

Charging stations will go up when EV sales go up--this will help.

~~~
MisterBastahrd
I won't ever buy one because I need to take trips home once a month and the
drive is 800+ miles. Companies will always be hard pressed to sell the idea
that you need to take an extended break just to refuel your vehicle on a road
trip.

~~~
VLM
If you're trying to drive for 14 hours continuously for the safety of everyone
else on the road I hope you take extended breaks...

I would never take a privately owned vehicle on a road trip. One of my
coworkers rented a giant obese SUV for a road trip and when it broke down in
the literal middle of rural nowhere, it was no problem, the rental car company
drove another car to their breakdown in much less than an hour, then they
didn't have to deal with paying for 100 mile tows and scammy rural mechanics
knowing you will pay anything to get the heck out of there. Also no wear and
tear on their regular car. Plus its fun to drive something new.

~~~
vkou
If you have another person in your car, you can easily do 14 hours, by
switching off every 2-3.

When I'm on a long road trip, time is of the essence. I don't want to spend
more time at gas stations then I have to.

~~~
VLM
Well, OK, but don't you always come out ahead flying on anything longer than
200 or so miles? (hmm a coincidental number?) I mean even Amtrak is faster
than driving, if its direct and no transfers.

~~~
vkou
Flying takes 2 hours minimum, to pad for security delays, and have time before
boarding.

There's also getting yourself to the airport. They tend to be far on the
outskirts of town (This also involves paying an arm and a leg if you opt to
park.)

If you need a rental car on the other end, you can also look forward to 30
minutes for shuttling, waiting in line, paperwork...

Combined with the cost (Especially for multiple passengers), and the largely
unpleasant experience of flying, and I will happily drive 300 miles from
Vancouver to Portland, over taking a plane. 400 is probably my limit.

If all the driving you're doing is in the city, yes, an electric car is a
great option. They are not a great option for a longer road trip. (Also, fuel
economy/effective range goes down quite a bit when you are going above 60 MPH
- and most cars are traveling at 75 MPH on an interstate. Gas cars will spend
only a little more time at a gas station, but doing the same in an electric
will cost you a lot of time.)

------
robodale
My water pump went out on my (gasoline engine powered) car today. All 6 of my
fuel injectors did earlier in the year, so I'm a little sensitive about
vehicle repairs today.

Out of curiosity, I wondered if the upcoming Tesla Model 3 has any water
pumps. It has no need to cool an engine, right? So, maybe I'd avoid replacing
fuel and coolant parts. Less parts, means lower cost of ownership, right?
...Maybe?

Teslas have 3 water pumps, to pump ~26 quarts of coolant to keep the battery
cool. Sigh.

Maybe I'd have no fuel injectors to replace in a Tesla, but the physics of
getting me from 0-60 in a reasonable amount of time must necessitate a minimum
complexity.

I wish I could fast forward ten years to see total cost of ownership of EVs
versus gas/petrol powered vehicles.

~~~
jameshart
Warranties on electric cars are insane right now, I suspect specifically to
counter some of that new owner anxiety. Chevy are putting a 100,000 mile/8
year warranty on the battery systems in the Bolt; Ford are putting a similar
warranty on EV components in their electric/hybrid range. Tesla do 8 year
unlimited mileage on battery and drive units. You shouldn't have to pay for a
repair on the battery cooling system in a new EV.

~~~
chiph
A buyer should check the warranty offered on replacement batteries. A coworker
had the hybrid battery replaced on her car, and the car maker only offered
their usual 12 month parts warranty on it, not the remaining time on the
initial battery warranty.

------
vpeters25
I wonder if anybody close to the auto industry could shed some light as to
whether there are engineering reasons behind what appears to be a deliberate
effort to make their EVs look as ugly as possible.

~~~
chiph
Aerodynamics. Mercedes had a concept car in 2005 that was modeled after a fish
_Ostracion cubicus_ , which supposedly has the lowest coefficient of drag
found in nature.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-
Benz_Bionic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Bionic)

~~~
aembleton
That looks very much like the original Honda Insight
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/HondaIns...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/HondaInsight.jpg)

------
chrisper
Steve Wozniak got rid of his Tesla and got one of these.

[http://www.hybridcars.com/aples-steve-wozniak-choosing-
pract...](http://www.hybridcars.com/aples-steve-wozniak-choosing-practical-
over-stylish-with-chevy-bolt-over-tesla/)

~~~
Cshelton
Except for a week later he ditched the Bolt and was back in his Tesla. He was
just trying it out because he had a demo. He quickly found out that the Bolt
is no comparison really and switched back to the Model S.

~~~
chrisper
Oh. That sucks. I do not seem to be able to find any source on that, though.

~~~
Cshelton
I'll look for it. The media for some reason loves to hate on Tesla, so the
follow up didn't get much attention.

You can check his twitter, also he checks in to Tesla charging stations all
the time.

------
bit_logic
This will be an unpopular opinion, but I think it's too early to push full BEV
cars. I think the perfect car now is the plugin hybrid and this is what the
industry should be pushing across all types (SUV/CUV, small car, mid-size,
etc.) Reasons are:

* Supercharger can charge at 1.2kWh per minute. (90kWh/75minutes). That means a 10kWh battery can be charged in about 8 minutes which is comparable to a typical gas station time.

* Many plugin hybrids have about a 10kWh battery that gets about 25-30 mile EV range.

* The battery in one Tesla (90 kWh) could be used to build 9 plugin hybrid cars. Since the battery is so much smaller, the additional car price is also much less.

* Big improvement for the environment. The US likes SUVs. And many car trips are short distance (getting groceries, going to school, etc.) If these can be covered by the battery, then the impact of the low-mpg SUV is much reduced.

* Ironically, it would allow a business opportunity for gas stations. Imagine a EV quick charge cable right next to the gas pump. Fill the up the gas tank and quick charge the 10kWh battery at the same time.

* It would be a good fit for those without garages (such as apartments). The EV part of the car is simply a nice to have. The charging is quick enough to do it at those charging stations at supermarkets, workplaces, etc. But it's ok if they can't find any empty EV parking spots, the gas engine will get them home.

~~~
sheer_horror
Don't bother with hybrids if all of the shortcomings are covered with
gasoline. A good EV or a good gasoline car are both better than a hybrid, so
what is the point? Who wants to buy a car that is heavier and slower than
their full gas and full electric counterparts?

It's always too late to push for something that is just a bad product.

~~~
Kadin
> A good EV or a good gasoline car are both better than a hybrid, so what is
> the point?

I don't think this is true. A plug-in hybrid will always have an advantage
over a gasoline car, in that it can do short trips without starting the gas
engine at all. So for repeated short trips, it acts like a BEV. But unlike a
BEV, there's no range limitation or worrying about where to find a charging
station.

I've thought fairly hard about a pure BEV and I can't see myself getting one
except as an additional vehicle. But I could see getting a plug-in hybrid like
the Volt in the near future. Anecdotally, all the people I know who are
seriously considering BEVs are buying them as second or third cars. There's
certainly a market, but I think it's going to saturate pretty quickly, because
a lot of people don't want to have one vehicle for known-distance commuting
and then another vehicle for unknown-distance or long trips. While these trips
may represent a small percentage of driving in terms of actual mileage,
they're enough to shape the choice of cars. (E.g. someone may not drive to
grandma's house out in the sticks more than a few times a year, but if the car
can't handle that drive, it's not going to get purchased, period.)

~~~
mikeash
Lots of Tesla owners have it as their only car. (Or they own multiple cars,
but all EVs.) I'm one of them. Of course, Tesla is the only one out there that
can really handle those long trips. The Bolt can't unless all the stars line
up.

I really don't understand why other manufacturers aren't pushing hard on fast
charging networks. As you say, those long trips may not be common, but people
won't buy the car if it can't make them.

------
iandanforth
Interested in an EV but think $30k is a bit pricey? A 2013, 2014 and even 2015
Nissan LEAFs can be had for $9-11K. I just bought a 2015 Nissan LEAF (S trim)
which adds many of the features of the higher SV trim from 2013/2014\. Total
price at 26k miles? $11,200 (with tax and fees in CA).

Not a solution for the long distance folks, but for my 46 mile round-trip
commute, I can charge each evening on 110 and don't worry about going out to
dinner or other side trips I want to add to my day.

~~~
cpursley
What was your average max range when required with 26k on the clock?

~~~
thecodemonkey
We did the same thing. 2014 Nissan Leaf had about 18k miles on it, still had
full battery capacity (no "lost" bars). The range is just north of 80 miles.

~~~
cpursley
That's very compelling. Maybe I'll wait until there's some used Bolts on the
market.

------
programminggeek
That's a lot to pay for a car. I bought a used 2001 Mitsubishi Gallant 10
years ago and it still is a solid daily driver. I think I paid $7,000 or so
for it.

Perhaps in 5 years a used Bolt will be a sensible purchase. Until then, I'll
let everyone else buy them new and pay the depreciation for me.

~~~
ams6110
Yep, $7-$8K is my market for cars. You may have to look around a bit but you
can find something well-cared for, reliable, and with many years of life left
for that money.

~~~
programminggeek
Here's my little trick...

My brother used to sell used cars and a good friend runs a couple small
dealerships nearby. I call him when I need a car, tell him what kind, how
much, what features and he goes out and finds one at auction for me.

It takes a month or so, but I always end up with a great deal.

If you know someone who can do that for you, it's a great deal for you and an
easy sale for them.

------
linsomniac
I'm really curious to see how the traditional auto companies do with electric
cars. Tesla owns the dealers, Chevy has a network of dealers that are used to
making significant money on service. According to Edmunds, 44% of a dealers
profit comes from service.

Losing 44% of your profit is going to be a big deal to a lot of dealers.

I'm wondering if the Tesla model that so many dealer networks have been
battling will be required to make the transition to EVs. A manufacturer that
has, say, 40% of their dealers dry up is probably going to, for survival sake,
start dealing direct. That's my theory anyway.

~~~
ams6110
There will still be a good bit of service work. Crash repair/body work,
brakes, tires, air conditioning, random little faults like switches and
sensors and fans, etc.

~~~
linsomniac
There will definitely be service work, but I'm expecting it is going to be a
lot lower frequency than with a traditional ICE car. I mean, I have a really
good relationship with my Audi service guy... Don't get me wrong. But I'd
prefer to do less chatting that ends with a thousand dollar plus invoice.

------
canada_dry
"60.0 kilowatt-hours of energy (equivalent to about 1.8 gallons of gasoline)"

Interesting. Just for an oranges to apples comparison, I wonder how many KWh
the most efficient gas powered generator can produce on 1.8 gallons of gas.

~~~
sebnukem2
Combustion engines are about 15-20% efficient. Toyota has 30+% engines in
their Prius.

Electric motors are about 90% efficient.

So electric motors are about 5x more efficient than ICEs.

~~~
samfisher83
67% of electricity comes from fossil fuel.

[https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3](https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3)

Efficiency of coal plant is ~ 33%

[http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_01.html](http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_01.html)

Natural gas is about ~40%.

So in reality you are getting 90% of ~35% or 31.5%.

~~~
parimm
There are combined cycle natural gas plants that can go up to 68% eff

~~~
samfisher83
That is not what it is currently for a majority of plants. Maybe there is few
plants here or there, but I posted the data directly from eia.

------
sickbeard
38k MSRP isn't exactly cheap. You could get Merc GLA 250 for that kind of
money

~~~
masmullin
No kidding eh? The Bolt seems to be relatively comparable to the Sonic in
size, which can be had for $16k.

I don't think buyers are going to save 22k in gasoline over the course of the
life of the car.

~~~
csours
The performance of the Bolt EV is MUCH better than a Sonic (6.5 second 0-60
for the Bolt EV; 8.7 for the Sonic; 6.4 for the Mercedes GLA mentioned above),
and the feel of the electric drive is smoother than any gasoline powertrain
(barring possibly a Bentley); so you are definitely getting more than fuel
savings with your extra $22k. It is still up to the buyer to decide if those
features are worth it.

Disclaimer: I work for GM and drive a Sonic. I did not work on this program.

~~~
sickbeard
isn't this a laughable metric for what is a small sized family car?

~~~
EdHominem
No, this (0-60 time) is the primary metric for keeping you from being run over
by a truck while trying to merge onto the highway.

Driving a gutless little thing amongst the real vehicles is scary.

~~~
csours
Less known, but also important is the 30-70 or 50-70 time, which is actually
even more impressive in the Bolt, due to no lost time to downshifting and
engine spooling.

------
rootusrootus
I think it's not a perfect replacement for a traditional car yet, but it's an
incredible leap forward towards that goal for EVs. We are legitimately close
to seeing widespread adoption of EVs by regular folks.

My takeaways:

1) Lease! EVs are evolving so rapidly that buying one outright seems
unnecessarily risky. Or wait and buy one used for _cheap_.

2) We really do need standardized charging. If it's free, as I have heard, why
doesn't Bolt and other forthcoming EVs support the Tesla Supercharging
technology? Being instantly able to leverage that network would be a big deal.

3) The holy grail is going to be 500-700 miles of range, where you can do road
trips (goal being a reasonable driving distance per day, not swapping
drivers).

~~~
ec109685
If the car will be cheap in three years, the lease will be expensive.

------
ebbv
I am really excited about the Bolt and planning to get one next year when the
lease on my Nissan Leaf is up. However, I really dislike how leather seats are
bundled with other options on cars nowadays. I do not want leather seats. They
are annoying to maintain and easily damaged by my big dogs. I'm really hoping
there's some way I can order a Bolt with the other options (especially heated
seats) and no leather seats, but there probably isn't.

~~~
k26dr
Is it possible to heat non-leather seats without a fire hazard?

~~~
Kadin
GM has heated cloth and leatherette seats on many of its trucks. I think the
decision to package heating and leather together is for marketing reasons, not
because of any technology-compatibility issues. (They're both "premium"
options and bundling them together makes sense if you are constructing a
multi-thousand-dollar package.)

------
Shivetya
I know some don't like the packaging but CUVs are selling in ever increasing
numbers and should help with sales more than if this were a sedan. I was very
impressed with the range they obtained with both EPA and how some individual
drivers fared.

Going to be real curious what drop off it experiences in winter. I am
seriously considering a lease for one of these, I would not buy any first
generation practical EV; I don't consider any of the sub 100 gang to be
practical.

What I am really curious about is how this will effect pricing on the short
range EVs. I don't see the pricing to remain steady on anything short of 200
miles going forward.

Even Consumer Reports likes it, though they state the boxy form is dork like
it in no means goes full dork like the i3. Again, CUVs are the where the
market is hot now and this was a great choice by GM. CR review
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIYG0NR42LU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIYG0NR42LU)

~~~
gbrown
If you're not ready to make the jump, the Volt gets to play electric car for
most journeys, kicking over to being a fuel efficient hybrid for long ones.
The Gen 1 is cheap right now, and gets around 42 electric miles in the summer,
35 in the winter. The newer ones have increased range.

~~~
davisr
I have a 2013 Volt, and in the summer I actually get around 55 miles to the
charge, one just needs to learn to be less aggressive with the accelerator
(there's an indicator on the dash that helps with this).

~~~
gbrown
I started out by doing that, but now I just ignore it and drive as usual. The
42 mile range is enough to get to and from work (my wife and I actually
carpool, and she can charge it for free at work).

------
ryandrake
What gets me is the subsidies going to buyers of these expensive new cars. Of
all the things the public can spend taxpayer money on, we pick luxuries for
(by and large) already-well-off people.

California has mitigated this to a degree by making their state subsidy means-
tested: [1], which is a good first step.

1: [http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/07/electric-vehicles-
incent...](http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/07/electric-vehicles-incentives-
work-but-not-without-consequences/)

~~~
mikeash
It's meant to jumpstart the market. The federal subsidies begin to phase out
once the manufacturer sells 200,000 qualifying vehicles. That means that the
total cost of the subsidies, in the grand scheme of things, is not all that
high.

~~~
Gibbon1
Sounds like the government is saying, we'll pay 200,000 cars X $7500/car ->
$1.5 billion to help fund electric vehicle development. This is like $5 per
capita (1.5X10^9 divided by 300,000 people) over 2-3 years.

I'm having trouble getting upset.

~~~
mikeash
Essentially. It's not quite right because it doesn't cut off immediately at
200,000, but rather phases out, and it's 200,000 per manufacturer. On the
other hand, no manufacturer has even come close to that point, and only Tesla
looks like they'll reach it any time soon.

------
honkhonkpants
"The Bolt starts at $37,495 in LT trim, but a $7500 federal tax credit will
pull the price under $30,000."

I don't understand this because the last time I went into the VW dealer they
had the MSRP of the e-Golf crossed out with a sharpie, and the price was
written in higher, by the exact sum of the state and federal credits. How can
the buyer expect to capture all of the federal incentive?

~~~
sowbug
They were literally* marking up the price. It's not uncommon for popular
models. Offer a couple thousand below MSRP and see how it goes.

*A rare proper usage of the term "literally"

------
Tempest1981
So many binary arguments: it's better, no it's worse. It won't work for me.

Just want to point out that it's a continuum -- both in people that the
technology is well suited for, and at this point in time in 2016.

The technology will continue to evolve. There are early adopters, late
adopters, and some clinging to their V8s.

------
philipkglass
This looks like a great deal if you live in Washington and drive daily. Our
gasoline prices are second only to California in the continental US (will be
#1 if the carbon tax ballot measure passes) but electricity is very cheap here
-- I pay less than 7 cents per kWh.

------
bjourne
> Those who venture farther afield will find that the charging network is the
> one arena where Chevrolet is still handily outscored by Tesla.

Can't the same charging stations be used for different brands of cars? Seems
wasteful if each manufacturer has to build their own network.

------
peter303
Remember this is GM's third generation EV, so they have a lot of experience,
but not the volume of Telsa (yet). The first generation lead battery was
almost mythological- loved by their customers but hated by GM. GM was probably
losing a fortune on each leased.

~~~
mikeyouse
> Remember this is GM's third generation EV, so they have a lot of experience,
> but not the volume of Telsa (yet).

GM is definitely at about the same volume as Tesla -- They've sold ~130,000
Volts / Amperas, maybe ten thousand Spark EVs, and a few thousand Cadillac
ELRs..

As of the end of Q3, Telsa has sold 160,000 total vehicles, so GM and Tesla
are likely within ~10%-15% of each other in total EV sales.

------
phmagic
Great timing on GM's part to eat at the majority share of the EV market
dominated by the Leaf.

------
esaym
I think I'll stick with my 2000 Ford mustang with 220k miles. The syncros in
the transmission are mostly out, so I have to double clutch to down shift, but
that just makes me feel more in control. Plus I can do awesome burn outs when
ever I feel like it.

~~~
EdHominem
I doubt your Mustang can smoke the tires at 80+ mph. Test drive a Tesla.

Also, while we grew up thinking of gas engine sounds as powerful, after
driving an EV gas engines just sound like angry lawn-mowers. People in their
hot cars seem like kids with playing cards in their bike spokes.

~~~
esaym
At least for the next 10 years of my life, I don't think I would ever pay more
than $10k for a car (used of course). And unless I wreck my current car, I'll
probably still be driving it in 10 years.

And if the Tesla can smoke tires, I'm sure they'll release a software patch to
"fix" that in the future.

------
chx
I am looking at all these calculations here on HN and can't stop thinking "in
30 years all of this is gone. just gone." there won't be individuals owning
cars any more. Mostly. If not 30, 50. Doesn't matter.

~~~
pcurve
hopefully I'll still have my current 2014 mazda 3 manual tranny hatch in my
garage 30 years from now. It will be a classic. ;)

~~~
chx
You might have it but the insurance will be so high for a human driven vehicle
you won't have it and then you don't want to drive on a public road. I am
pretty sure it'll be insurance who will drive this change.

------
Animats
So who wants to go into the charging station business? GM has said they're not
going to do it. There's a startup, "EV Oasis", which has a few charging
stations in Southern California.

Uber, maybe?

~~~
Buge
Well there's Chargepoint.

------
nikrdc
ctrl-f "bmw" ctrl-f "i3" surprised no one has pointed out how much this car
looks like the BMW i3!

~~~
robterrell
i3 driver here. IMO, the Bolt looks better. And true four doors instead of
suicide doors makes a big difference for the kids (mine still can't remember
which door closes first.)

It looks like a normal car. As it should. Can't wait for the days of auto
manufacturers bashing their EVs with the ugly stick to end.

~~~
bluehawk
Dang, just looked up the suicide doors. That's... interesting. The driver and
passenger seatbelts look like they are attached to the rear doors, so when you
pick up someone, and they get in the back, you have to unbuckle so they can
open the door.

Are the major car companies even trying to make reasonable electric cars? They
all look so weird and have weird design decisions that make me not want to buy
them at all.

~~~
robterrell
It's improving. The Golf EV and Fiat 500e are basically the same exteriors and
interiors with EV drivetrains. The Mercedes 250B EV looks extremely normal. I
believe Ford has some normal-looking EV options.

But BMW went all-in on a new platform and new materials, and that led them to
the suicide doors. I don't think there's any excuse for the front end, though.

------
plg
I'd like the one that's the same color as my cat poo please

(always wondered why people buy brown cars)

------
gkfasdfasdf
No autopilot?

------
tinbad
I give credit to GM for being able to scrape its parts bin for the last 4
years to come out with a car that's slightly better than the 5 year old Leaf.
However it still shows a company that is clueless about the future and has no
real plan or vision other than producing a "me too" product made out of bits
and pieces of other, subpar, disposable Chevys.

[edit: wow so much hate]

~~~
maxerickson
Okay, let's address the substance of what you said. Which subpar Chevy did
they pull the battery and drivetrain out of? Because the 230 mile electric
platform is the interesting part of the car.

~~~
tinbad
Is it? Tesla has been mass producing cars with that range since 2012 now.

GM being able to put the same range on a $30k car is just batteries getting
cheaper.

~~~
salmon30salmon
Where is the sub 30k Tesla? Being able to design a car such as the model 3 is
a huge feat, no doubt. However execution is equally as important, and no
matter which way you slice it, GM hit the market first. It is not always fair,
the innovator should receive the rewards, but in this case the existing player
executed first.

------
35bge57dtjku
"sharknado"

