
Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow - SirLJ
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/01/facebook-employees-stage-virtual-walkout-over-trump-post-moderation.html
======
ditonal
Walkouts will achieve nothing, but the tragic part of the story is Silicon
Valley engineers are sitting on a massive amount of power to affect real
change IF they collectively organize, which they have various irrational hang
ups about doing. Zuckerberg does not care if 50% of his engineers skip a video
meeting. He would greatly care if he found out 50%+ of his SREs were going on
strike. But the word union is stigmatized even though
doctors/lawyers/police/actors/teachers unions all wield massive political
power, engineers accept their market based compensation and micro kitchens and
decide that’s enough then are shocked that on political issues they get pushed
around by the execs and VCs. If you want to have any voice in what your work
does in the world, step 1 is collective organization of Silicon Valley
engineers, anything besides that is smoke and mirrors and a waste of time.

~~~
baskire
Some of us have been in unionized industries prior. It also lead to promotion
based on years served. Pay scales. And the protection of low performers.

Right now engineers have incredible leverage. What do they gain by a union.

Don’t like what Facebook is doing. Quit and work elsewhere. There’s plenty of
jobs available

~~~
jakelazaroff
_> Right now engineers have incredible leverage._

If the engineers’ leverage is so great, why have they been unable to enact
policies they support?

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
Policies that engineers in general truly support are rare. Many engineers - I
suspect the majority - just don't feel that strongly about most causes.

~~~
Apocryphon
Engineer distaste or at least lack of enthusiasm for open offices is near-
universal. It might not be the best reason to create a union, but its
prevalence is probably rooted in the lack of something like a union to tell
management to back off.

~~~
Conan_Kudo
Engineer who works in an open office, can confirm. Open offices suck in a
large variety of ways, not the least of which my personal health has
deteriorated over the years in large part because of it.

~~~
SV_BubbleTime
As in getting colds? I haven’t heard of health as an open office gripe, but
I’ve never worked in one.

------
tayo42
What's with the cynicism in this posts? They're trying to make a point and
bring awareness. Who cares how hard it is. At least they're doing something.

To give them credit they're making a political statement at work when we're
told not to talk politics at work.

~~~
vinhboy
On Reddit there were a lot of "why don't they just quit their job" comments. I
am just rolling eyes really hard. To be fair, when I was younger, before I had
all these adult responsibilities, that would have probably been my answer as
well.

~~~
lopis
It's still true though. Engineers, specially, have had the power of voting
with their CVs for a long time. The only reason Facebook is able to pay
ridiculous salaries today is because engineers voted with their CVs
continuously for the past 10 years.

------
Lx1oG-AWb6h_ZG0
What is their end goal here? I certainly don’t want Mark Zuckerberg or any of
his employees making decisions on what is considered newsworthy, especially on
really important stuff like this. Even if you don’t personally like what is
being said, the fact that it _is_ being said - and who is saying it - is an
important point for people to know.

The next time, it may be your own opinions that they’ll censor: Facebook has
far more reach, and has much less journalistic pretensions than any of
Murdoch’s properties... you really really don’t want them to start getting
involved in politics.

~~~
jlebar
Isn't the context also important for people to know?

Like, if the President of the United States is saying something that's
factually incorrect and might cause people e.g. not to register to vote
(because they expect every Californian will be getting a ballot), is that
context not also significant?

Or, hypothetically -- but really if you think at this point that this is a
stretch, come on -- if Trump claims without evidence on November 3 that he was
the victim of massive voter fraud and the election was stolen, and calls for
his supporters to take up arms against their state and local governments,
should that be broadcast without context or commentary?

~~~
jimmydorry
Facebook should provide the platform and stop there. When they act as
publishers and start editorialising or adding "platform opinions" to the user
generated content, they can rightly be asked why they endorse everything else
on their site that isn't "edited" or "added to".

We need to think real hard about what we want in 5 years and beyond from
now... not just what we want now. Breaching the divide of platform and
publisher for anything beyond light moderation to keep the platform usable, no
matter how well intentioned, is bound to have a devastating result on future
political expression.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Nice idealism. But human beings have trouble managing that kind of platform.
Every idiot's lies look just as legitimate as expert opinion. Other idiots can
search for confirmation of their biases and find any number of hits that way.

Call it what you like; we're not coping very well with unrestricted
dissemination of disinformation. Folks have gamed it at the highest levels.

~~~
devado
Aren't zuck and his company made of humans? What magic powers do they have to
suddenly curate things accurately and deem the destiny of mankind? I have
trouble following what you are trying to say. Maybe you are asking for all
social media to be shutdown altogether.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
You made all that up. I asked for nothing. Ridicule is unnecessary and
misplaced.

Funny how folks get defensive when criticism of their addiction is put
forward. You can always tell.

~~~
devado
And you still haven't told us what your solution is. It's easy to criticize.
"it sucks" . ok, so?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Not smart enough to fix all mankinds ills. Just noticing, we're addicted and
its not going well.

------
ironman1478
The real protest will be to quit unless one genuinely thinks they can make a
change in the ideology of a company (so somebody in upper management or with
some pull). If you are a senior or lower engineer, I don't imagine this has
any effect on anything. Just look on "who's hiring" every month here. Lots of
local companies (and many remote) that pay good salaries and work towards
great goals. If somebody disagrees with facebook's ideals, there is no
shortage of jobs out there for them to apply for that pay well and have a net
positive effect on the world (as far as I can tell, I could be wrong about
some of these companies).

------
MrBuddyCasino
Private companies must never be the arbiters of truth on the internet.
Zuckerberg is doing the right thing, against huge internal resistance.

You'd think Americans, out of all countries, would understand this.

~~~
jlebar
If you say something, and I say, here's some evidence that you're wrong, does
that make me an arbiter of the truth on the Internet? I mean, how is what you
did (saying something) any different from what I did (also saying something)?

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
In that scenario you're a regular participant in a discussion, presumably as
another user of a platform, standing on equal footing with others. This NOT
what this is about!

If you're the owner of the platform, and prominently inject your POV, thats
starting to get problematic. I understand the impulse to do that, but people
aren't thinking about the 2nd order effects.

~~~
jlebar
So the difference is prominence, highlighting this one particular reply
because it was written by the platform itself?

I'm still not seeing how this is a big deal. What are the second-order
effects?

------
0zymandias
Social media is a dead end. The results are depression and misinformation.

Unless you believe truth can easily be determined, there is no tweak that Zuck
and Jack can do to fix their platforms. At least Zuck is honest about it.

~~~
ipsum2
> Social media is a dead end. The results are depression and misinformation.

Honest question. Is Reddit any different? Hacker News? Your average bulletin
board?

~~~
propelol
Reddit is better because people are more anonymous and don't have to mix their
real life with their online life.

~~~
ipsum2
Why? Misinformation on Facebook and Twitter are spread by bots AFAIK. How does
being anonymous help decrease misinformation?

------
davidw
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.”

~~~
thrwaway69
[https://tatianamac.com/posts/white-
guyde/](https://tatianamac.com/posts/white-guyde/)

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
This is probably the wrong time for Facebook software engineers to try to flex
their muscles. Most large firms have put their hiring on hold due to COVID-19.
A lot of engineering talent is now on the market looking for jobs due to
layoffs by startups and many other companies. Facebook is gearing up for
remote work which will expand the talent pool beyond Silicon Valley.

The situation on the ground has changed a lot in the last few months.

I am not sure how much real leverage they will have from the walkout.

~~~
ergothus
They'll find out how much of the rhetoric the company feeds them is true or
not. They'll know for themselves when they deemed it important to draw a line.

As a matter of calculation, the timing isn't ideal. None of them seem to be
saying it is a matter of calculated timing to leverage their market value
though.

------
ponker
Can’t imagine lower stakes than an employee making $400K not dialing in for a
day and not even having to take a PTO day to do it.

~~~
skinnymuch
Your account may be shadowbanned. I vouched for this comment though. It
describes what I feel. Not that the workers perhaps aren’t doing anything
else. But solely this action doesn’t mean much at all.

------
nednar
Hasn't FB always been the company where pragmatism and competitiveness trumps
justice, moral and general decency? Why did these 600 people start working
there in the first place? I'm confused. No judgement, just trying to
understand.

------
edoceo
I support this walkout. As a small business owner all I've been able to do was
purge my FB page profiles. I'm proud of them for taking a bigger step than I'm
able to make.

Working people of all countries unite. Seize the means of production!

~~~
MattGaiser
> Seize the means of production!

You realize that means your business too?

~~~
edoceo
Obviously and eventually. Shipmate before self and all.

~~~
luckylion
> Obviously and eventually.

"But please seize my business last"?

~~~
edoceo
Marx makes a difference between the tradesman who has a small business
employing other tradesmen and the oligarch who's salary is 300% greater than
the workforce average.

You know that Marx isn't against all business right? It's the extreme
inequality that's the problem.

So, like most small business owners we'd be seized well after the 1% (and even
the 5%).

~~~
remarkEon
Marx _did_ make a (big) difference here ... unfortunately for the tradesman,
no one gave a shit.

------
pmorici
Some of those tweets that the article quotes sound like something straight out
of the Onion.

People are asking these social media companies to put themselves in an
impossible position.

~~~
danaris
Social media companies have put _themselves_ there, by becoming de facto
"public squares" for general communication, while still being de jure private
companies with a civic responsibility to the truth and to human rights.

------
sktrdie
Honest question: what power does Zucherberg have with regards to allowing or
not a post of the president? I mean even if he asks people to delete it, the
president surely will demand him to put it back online.

~~~
adammunich
His freedom to remove that post I believe would qualify as protected under the
bill of rights.

------
RickJWagner
Can I state the obvious?

People are acting just plain crazy these days. I hope it ends soon.

------
GaryNumanVevo
A strike would be more effective in my opinion. Organize and take the site
down. Keep it down for a few hours. That's easily a few hundred million in
lost profits.

------
dreamcompiler
It's probably time for TheFacebook to die. Or just become a zombie like Yahoo.
But here's the sad thing: Nobody will be sad when it happens.

If Apple died I'd be sad. Likewise Stitchfix and Digital Ocean and Github and
Airbnb. Hell, maybe even Microsoft a little bit. But not Facebook or Google.

If I started a company one of my goals would be to create a lasting culture
providing enough real value that at least a few people other than the
employees would be sad when it died.

------
davidkamMN
Anyone has the right to walk out. But FB also has the right to not promote
those people.

------
erik_seaberg
Journalists are _quoting_ Trump's statement as newsworthy. Everyone knows what
he said. What's the point of censoring it ineffectually?

~~~
vore
It's not about censoring or not censoring. It's about Facebook actually giving
a shit about the state of the world it's in, and not just Mark Zuckerberg's
incessant handwringing about "feeling disgust" but... doing nothing about it.

Too long have abhorrent actions by Donald Trump gone completely unchecked by
major platforms and, if Facebook won't even do the token step of doing
something about a clearly racist and disgusting message, then they are truly
spineless and complicit.

~~~
humanrebar
What's the common standard then? Does it ban leaders of countries that oppress
homosexuals and other minorities as policy? Leaders who actually imprison
political dissenters?

Donald Trump is a bad president IMO, but there are _far_ worse people (and
their spokespeople) active on social media. The inconsistent standard makes
this seem more like virtue signalling, which isn't quite "giving a shit about
the state of the world".

EDIT: Corrected a typo. I think Trump _is_ a bad president.

~~~
vore
So? Flag their messages too. You and I are both agreeing what Trump is saying
is horrendous.

And, for what it's worth, I'm gay and a part of a minority and I am privileged
to live somewhere where there's little repression for who I am. I absolutely
want to see people pushing back on countries that have terrible leaders who
would repress my life: if you're going to shrug then say "well that's just
policy", that honestly sucks.

I'd take "virtue signalling" any day over whatever this response from Facebook
is.

~~~
devado
> I am privileged to live somewhere where there's little repression for who I
> am.

We reached here because we had complete freedom of speech. And you are against
that very thing, the irony

~~~
vore
This is a complete non-sequitur to what I said.

------
idlewords
Note that this so-called walkout consists of people already at home taking a
personal day and changing their autoreply email.

~~~
buboard
thanks, i always wondered how these work. so people would normally walk out of
the office, and go home? Do they walk down the stairs instead of taking an
elevator? How far out do they walk? What if it's raining out? Would they
answer emails before leaving? would they leave after lunch? do they leave all
together? Do they use corporate buses to go home? I feel these are important
subtleties

~~~
idlewords
The key point is that a typical walkout is a public act where you leave work
and then demonstrate. It is a situation where people can see you and where you
can see the other people walking out with you. You can even do things like
picket or articulate demands! This is... not that.

------
kennethh
I think Facebook's way of handling the political messages by not interfering
is much better than Twitters. I do not want some random person inserting a
fact note which corresponds with their view of the world. Facts are very
seldom only one sided and it should be up to the readers to comment the tweet
or do a google search.

