
I rode all the e-scooters, and most of them are awful except two - ourmandave
https://jalopnik.com/i-rode-all-the-e-scooters-most-of-them-are-awful-excep-1835373127
======
lmm
> We’ve restricted our entrants to scooter-type vehicles (as opposed to
> e-assist bicycles)

And then the conclusion is that the most bicycle-like one is best because it's
more bicycle-like. Seems like a category arbitrage rather than a fair analysis
of mobility options.

~~~
kcorbitt
I regularly ride my e-bike in SF but have also dabbled with the rental
scooters. I have a hard time understanding the scooters' popularity, compared
to a rentable e-bike like the Jump or Lime bikes. In my experience e-bikes
have the advantage in top speed, stability, comfort and safety. Other than
taking up marginally more space when parked, I can't think of any downsides.
This matches the article author's conclusion. Can anyone explain to me what
I'm missing?

~~~
underhill
I take both Jump e-bikes as well as various scooters on the regular. Honestly
I prefer Jump Bikes - it's almost always cheaper and faster and safer. I
definitely feel more "seen" by cars as well.

That being said, with a scooter you aren't pedaling at _all_. Even on an
e-assist bike you're still getting the adrenaline pumping and sorta sweaty.
And a lot of people are afraid of riding bikes in traffic, so while even
though bikes are actually much safer, there's a lower mental barrier to entry
with scooters. People who almost never ride normal bikes (which is most
people) have a harder time adopting the mindset of taking a bike share,
e-assist or not.

Plus scooters are straight up more fun to ride with a group of friends - it's
a genuinely fun thing to have out of town friends do.

~~~
HillaryBriss
> And a lot of people are afraid of riding bikes in traffic, so while even
> though bikes are actually much safer, there's a lower mental barrier to
> entry with scooters.

In LA it's not legal to ride scooters on the sidewalk, so, in theory, people
should fear riding scooters too because they're supposed to ride scooters in
traffic -- just like the bikes. Of course, in practice, almost everyone rides
everything on the sidewalks in LA. Traffic codes are mainly unenforced here.

~~~
underhill
Oh yeah - I've seen plenty of not-confident-bikers hop on scooters and ride
them in the street.

Even though riding a scooter in the street is often fairly terrifying, I feel
like there's some kind of easy mental jump that has people getting on without
nearly as much reservation as they would have hopping on a bike.

------
justaguyhere
_During the single day of this test, I found three Wheels with intentionally
cut brake lines_

WTF is wrong with people? I understand these things are annoying and litter
sidewalks, but intentionally cutting brakes to harm someone? Jeez, this is
just shitty behavior

~~~
toyg
Evil and insane people unfortunately do exist. Some of the failures of modern
technology are directly related to refusing or ignoring this inconvenient
truth.

~~~
bryanlarsen
And some of the worst abuses of power and technology have come from assuming
that evil people are relatively common rather than extremely rare.

~~~
toyg
Sadly, crime is fundamentally asymmetric: a small number of bad actors can
inflict damage and pain on a large number of victims.

This is particularly well-known in the domain of public urban facilities,
where _everything_ can be assumed to suffer vandalism or sabotage at any given
time. You only need a handful of thugs to have a “gang” that can effectively
demolish anything fairly quickly, including facilities used by hundreds or
thousands of people. Defensive design, in this domain, is not just warranted
but _necessary_.

------
checker
This is the first I've heard of people tampering with the brake systems - it's
incredibly malicious. I understand some people might be frustrated by the
scooters, but is manslaughter really the right way to go about it?

~~~
docdeek
Story here in Lyon, France, yesterday about a less-dangerous attack on the
electric scooters: instead of cutting the brake cables, vandals are painting
over the QR code instead. No QR code to scan means no useable scooter. Link in
French: [https://www.leprogres.fr/rhone-69/2019/06/10/a-lyon-les-
trot...](https://www.leprogres.fr/rhone-69/2019/06/10/a-lyon-les-trottinettes-
electriques-immobilisees-en-un-coup-de-peinture)

~~~
mmcwilliams
To be fair, QR codes are a fairly fragile technology for something like that.
If instead of destroying them, someone replaced the codes with a malicious
link the outcome could be worse.

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
Great idea! I'll go print some QR stickers tonight

------
andrewla
Maybe I'm coming into this with low expectations; the best we have in NYC is
the CitiBikes (by Motivate) that are strictly human powered, dock-based, and
not cheap. But I love these scooters and would vote for any candidate for
mayor that made it a priority to remove the blocks preventing these things
from being issued.

When I was in Venice on business, I used all of these scooters (except the
'Wheels', which to me looked silly; I could pick up an electric bike, which
were also everywhere, if I wanted to sit down). All of the scooters I used
(the same ones in the article) worked fantastically well, I never hit a
geofence or had a problem finding one when I needed one, and they are all
amazingly cheap.

I never got in or witnessed a crash; the scooters don't go fast enough that
falling off is a big deal anyway, based on my experience having to hop off one
when I got myself into a pickle.

~~~
perennate
The larger wheels on the Wheels bikes (and electric bikes in general) seem
like a big pro to me, after some injuries from small cracks in the road while
riding a scooter. I think the advantage of Wheels over other electric bikes is
the smaller parking footprint.

Given that it's battery-powered, not dock-based (but bikes eventually get
returned to hubs to avoid clutter), and cheaper than the scooters, what makes
you still prefer scooters?

~~~
andrewla
To be honest, the Wheels in particular I thought were just kind of silly
looking. I also didn't want to sign up and give my credit card to another
random company, when I could use most of the vehicles around through other
apps. I didn't know that they were cheaper than scooters -- I don't think I
ever paid more than $2 for a scooter ride, and most were less than that. Next
time I'll try the Wheels.

If I was going longer haul, I tended to use one of the electric pedal assist
bikes instead of the scooters, but they were slightly harder to find than the
scooters, which were everywhere.

------
sporksmith
Seems like the main flaw in the ones the author labeled "awful" was a geofence
policy that limited the top speed on a "bike path", or locked them out of it
altogether. Makes it a bit difficult to generalize their conclusions,
especially without knowing more about the path to be able to judge whether
that policy is reasonable (and/or mandated by the city).

~~~
alistairSH
The Venice beach bike path is a "standard" mixed-use path. Wide enough for
bikes to pass in opposite directions - total width is a bit wider than a full
size pick-up truck. It's fairly twisty and bordered by sand on both sides, so
if you run over the edge, you probably fall on your face.

As for appropriate speeds, a jog is about 5mph. That sounds reasonable and
safe for a small-wheeled scooter. A townie/cruiser bicycle will do 10mph
without too much effort, so that could be the upper bound too. Much faster
with those small wheels seems dangerous regardless of location.

------
mocha_nate
So the #1 scooter is not a scooter?

Also, some cities are banning those pedestrian focused areas. In Austin, they
banned ebikes and scooters from our waterfront area that has a 10 mile walkway
around it.

I ride scooters in austin, tx every weekend. Its half as cheap as a lyft and
there are lots of competitors. Here’s my top two:

1\. Bird - cheaper per mile and pretty reliable

2\. Lime - often faster than the others, but more expensive and sometimes have
minor defects (braking issues, throttle delay, etc)

~~~
anchpop
We used to have both brands on my school's campus. I found the lime app on
android to be very buggy (crashing, not letting me park my scooter, etc.), not
sure if that has changed.

~~~
asdff
They fixed the app but it can be slowish to respond if you just pulled it out
of your pocket. There was a period of time where I could unlock a scooter,
close the app, and get a free ride.

------
Angostura
I was somewhat annoyed by the penalising of scooters that stopped you riding
on cycle paths; presumably you aren't meant to use them on there, hence the
restriction.

If so, the company that limits speed to 3MPH - enough to exit the cycle path -
is doing it exactly right.

~~~
masto
Indeed. The ones he rated poorly were the ones that tried to prevent him from
breaking Los Angeles City Municipal Code 63.44.

~~~
whenchamenia
Yes, but I like the ability to make that choice. My car is not governed, why
should my scooter be? This is not unreasonble, even if inconvenient thinking.

~~~
Angostura
I would generally be in favour of restrictions that stopped cars driving on
cycle lanes.

~~~
jfk13
Until there's a broken-down vehicle blocking the road, and the only way around
it involves encroaching on the cycle lane (carefully!) ... but your hi-tech
geofenced car forbids that, so you're stuck.

Or you attempt to move out of the way of an oncoming emergency vehicle, as
it's barrelling down the centre of the road to reach a dying patient ... but
it needs an extra couple of feet of space that you can only give it if you
move partly into the cycle lane. And your car refuses.

~~~
lmm
> Or you attempt to move out of the way of an oncoming emergency vehicle, as
> it's barrelling down the centre of the road to reach a dying patient ... but
> it needs an extra couple of feet of space that you can only give it if you
> move partly into the cycle lane. And your car refuses.

Do you think geofencing cars out of bike lanes would lead to more or fewer
deaths overall, when you include all the cases of drivers killing cyclists
that would be prevented?

------
yardie
I took an Uber scooter yesterday and it was the most bone rattling experience
I’ve had in a while. Not sure who designed these but there is a reason
bicycles and cars have had pneumatic tires for a century, now. Wheels look
interesting and I hope they extend their service area to south Florida.

------
alchemism
Ive been using an ‘adult’ push scooter for five years in an urban environment.
This year I encountered the electric rentals for the first time, and bought a
Xiaomi m365 (aka the Bird scooter).

I also have a normal bike. They serve different purposes.

Either version of a scooter is safer. I’ve been in a few situations where I’ve
simply stepped off the plank and become an instant pedestrian, to avoid cars
which would have wiped me out on a bicycle.

~~~
emerongi
Is the m365 good? I was thinking about getting one a few days ago. I usually
cycle, but a scooter would be nice for smaller distances around the city.

~~~
mikestew
_(Not OP, have owned one for two weeks of daily seven mile commuting.)_ Good
as in, "in comparison to similarly-priced scooters"? Yes, it's probably your
best choice in that segment. You can spend a few hundred more for the M365 Pro
or Ninebot ES4, but you're mainly getting more battery. Parts are no problem,
as I'm pretty sure you could build a complete replicate from Alibaba, right
down to the screws and molded rubber bits. Build quality is decent, but not
great. Overall, better than I expected for $400 off Amazon.

Now, is it "iPhone good"? Quality-wise, no. It's not very water-resistant, for
starters, so it won't like a Seattle winter. The 250W motor is probably fine
for tourist rentals, but it can be a bit anemic on hills. The mobile app
integration is usable, but pretty meh. It's a 2nd-tier Android phone: good
enough for the purposes of most people, for the money spent. I have no
complaints with the M365, other than questionable durability.

Therefore, because I see making a habit of this scooter thing and water-
resistance is a consideration, I have one from Boosted (the e-skateboard
folks) pre-ordered. Should be iPhone/Pixel quality, and priced similarly
($1600).

------
newfocogi
Does anyone know who the manufacturer of the “Wheels” scooter/bike is? That
design appeals to me much more than the standing scooters.

~~~
elliekelly
I think this[1] is the one "Wheels" uses but it's pricey and sold by a UK
company though it appears they ship to the US for a flat rate £10. There's
also this one[2] which is a similar design and just as pricey.

[1] [http://i-walk.co.uk/product/urban-2-foldable-electric-
scoote...](http://i-walk.co.uk/product/urban-2-foldable-electric-scooter)

[2] [https://onemileusa.com/](https://onemileusa.com/)

------
twoquestions
Is there a cargo scooter/bike that can carry groceries? I'm not asking for
more cargo than I can carry in my hands, but I can't imagine carrying more
than a gallon of milk home in one of these.

~~~
notatoad
Any of them, if you own a backpack

~~~
imtringued
That sounds awful.

------
nkaviani
The title is misleading. the OP tried well "most" of the "rental" e-scooters
available in his geo-location.

I was hoping for a comparison of the brands.

On the Scooter vs Bike discussion, my GF and I discussed the idea of getting
bikes or scooters to commute to work and I gotta tell ya, scooters won by a
huge margin. Biggest benefit is that they are smaller in size. we can roll
them up in a closet, take them into the transit, and heck even put them in the
trunk of an uber car when needed. we dont need to to pay for bike room fees
and most cases can take them up to the office and store them under our desks.

the one point that I totally agree with is that scooter riders in this mixed
mindset of wanting "the rights of a pedestrian, the rights of a bicycle, and
the rights of a car, all at the same time", and yeah most of the accidents I
have seen come from this misconception of which category they really belong
to!

------
dkrich
So, this is a comparison about how lenient various scooter companies are when
it comes to allowing use on restricted bike lanes in a particular city. This
article applies to people living in Venice Beach who want to ride these in
bike lanes and not much else.

The bike looks cool though.

------
AJ007
The legal liability for these companies must be huge. I’ve seen toddlers on
these things with their parents, more than once. Kids very often.

~~~
brokenmachine
They probably have it in their fine print that you are not allowed passengers.
They'd be stupid not to really.

------
masto
The headline makes it sound like they tested all the scooters you can buy, but
it's specifically talking about 5 rental scooter brands in one location:

"We’ve restricted our entrants to scooter-type vehicles available on the
street for rent in Venice, CA as of May 13, 2019. For this test, that means
Bird, Lime, Lyft, Jump (Uber), and Wheels are in the game."

------
jerkstate
This article seems to be ranking how well the scooters comply with the local
GPS based speed restrictions which don’t apply everywhere. I’ve only ridden a
couple of them but I prefer the old generation Lime, it seems to be the
quickest accelerating with highest top speed and the disc brake is better than
other options that have regenerative only. My area doesn’t have GPS based
speed restrictions though (they do have GPS based parking restrictions)

------
neverminder
So he tested a bunch of low end scooters and concluded that all of them suck.
otherwise the sky is still blue. Some people may not realize that all of the
rental companies only stock cheap low end scooters. In general those scooters
are slow, have shitty brakes, suspensions, tires, etc. The scooter that I have
has large deck, pneumatic tires, excellent suspension, dual hydraulic disc
brakes and can go up to 65 km/h.

------
mikestew
Well, "rode all the e-scooters one can _rent_ ". Spend your own hard-earned,
and better options abound even if you just buy the retail version of the
Xiaomi/Ninebot that Bird/Lime use because it won't be geo-fenced.

And I'd rather walk than ride the clown bicycle that was the #1 pick, and I
say this as one who rides a Xiaomi standup scooter to work every day.

------
andimm
As I understand the speed is throttled on bike ways. So is it only allowed to
ride e-scooters on the sidewalk?

In Switzerland e-scooters are categorized similar like Mopeds, so they are
allowed (or required) to use the bike lanes or the street.

I wonder how this is handled in other countries as I just was in Spain and we
saw a lot of e-scooters and I wondered what the rules are there.

------
leetbulb
Recently used e-scooters while visiting Detroit. They were hit or miss and
hard to find a handful that actually worked (charged, maint., etc) near each
other. However, when they did work, it was a pleasant experience.

While it was interesting, I can't say that I'd prefer it over walking or
public transportation. Also, South Park definitely nailed it.

------
fulafel
Sounds like the author missed the existence of the real road legal ev scooters
(like Vespa Elettrica, Unu etc) and complains that the skateboard-with-
handlebars type ones don't do miracles.

------
ezoe
I really want a high-quality non-e kick scooter. After the trend passed out,
there aren't many high quality kick scooters manufactured.

~~~
monort
Oxelo Town 9 EF V2. It's a little too heavy though.

~~~
ezoe
It looks like it's not using pneumatic tires. and it's rather difficult to
purchase from Japan for no official dealers in Japan.

------
josefresco
Good write up. I wonder if people would have such a problem with these
scooters, if they simply sat upright when left instead of falling over. Most
photos I see of these scooters, are "piles" of them, or them strewn on the
sidewalk. Even with kickstands, I doubt users would leave them in neat order -
however I wonder if there's an engineering solution that would prevent them
from falling, or at least encourage people to be neat.

~~~
bamboo_7
In theory, some of them have gyroscope things that can send a signal if they
are not upright.

------
beat
Articles like this are why I love the internet. That was a fun (and
informative) read!

------
sly010
Good write up. Don't see the cangoroo sticks on the list.

------
diehunde
Any recommendations on a good scooter to buy?

~~~
nkaviani
I own a Glion Dolly ([https://glion-scooter.com/dolly/](https://glion-
scooter.com/dolly/)) and my girlfriend has a Segway ES2.

I would advocate for rubber tires despite the discomfort. the moment you get a
flat tire is pretty much the end of your scooter's lifetime as it is very
difficult to fix it.

I like Glion for its design and ease of carrying, but Segway wins in every
other aspect. Depends on your budget. If you are willing to spend a grand or
more then Mercane WideWheel probably tops the market right now.

------
nicholasfoden
Wow this page loads a LOT of js

