
An update on YC China - archibaldJ
https://blog.ycombinator.com/an-update-on-yc-china/
======
jessewmc
Strange optics not to mention the elephant in the room.

I could see them hitting some roadblocks and wanting to try again to get into
China, but that would be a reasonable thing to come out and say.

It also would be reasonable to come out and say they've changed their minds
due to political climate or some other risks.

Instead its... the new guy is busy?

~~~
undefined3840
It’s understandable it’s a touchy subject. Why piss off China if you don’t
have to? Only something to lose and nothing to gain.

Also this story of a Chinese Stanford professor/investor’s “suicide” last year
is quite the story. There’s a potential safety issue here too.
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/arthurherman/2018/12/13/a-death...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/arthurherman/2018/12/13/a-death-
in-silicon-valley-with-chinese-characteristics/)

~~~
hirundo
If a leader in the field were to say something like "we are withdrawing due to
our revulsion at the atrocities commited by the PRC against the Uyghur people"
it at least has the potential to start a preference cascade and a mass
movement.

~~~
draw_down
You first.

~~~
ISL
Mass incarceration and the destruction of Uighur culture is inhuman.

The people of Hong Kong, and their right to live with self-determination,
matter.

------
jakobmi
@YC Leadership: The Chinese Article [1] reads synonymously to: YC China was
RENAMED, not aborted. That's highly different from your English statement.
LOL: even the website ycchina.com redirects to MiraclePlus.
[http://www.ycchina.com/](http://www.ycchina.com/)

They even have the YC logo on their website and claim to have funded Airbnb,
Dropbox etc. Be careful to read their whole website. This whole website of
MiracleMinus is extremely dishonest. I would be very careful not to be
connected too much to dishonest and lack-of-integrity people like Qi.

[1] [https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/SnSsli_ZGo0yI58YD-
ddaw](https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/SnSsli_ZGo0yI58YD-ddaw)

~~~
bigpumpkin
"they even have the YC logo on their website and claim to have funded Airbnb,
Dropbox etc. "

YC的创业方法论培养了大量例如Airbnb，Stripe,
Dropbox等的明星企业。经过了14年的实战考验，充分证明了其有效性。在中国，我们将YC创业方法论落实到本地企业中，用来服务我们的初创公司。

" YC's entrepreneurial methodology has produced a number of star companies
such as Airbnb, Stripe, Dropbox and more. After 14 years of practical tests,
it has fully proved its effectiveness. In China, we implement the YC
entrepreneurial methodology into local companies to serve our startups."

~~~
paganel
That's pretty disappointing, so they're still actively using the YC name and
the YC brand, I recon with YC's approval. I had hoped that after recent Hong
Kong videos like this one [1] (not to mention the whole Uighur near-tragedy)
any sane company which cherishes some sort of values would have gotten out of
China as soon as possible. It seems that in this particular case YC is chasing
the local maximum of getting money in the short-run, forgetting about the
long-term consequences of what the Chinese government is now doing.

[1]
[https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3819595](https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3819595)

~~~
mac01021
Companies don't cherish values unless their customers do.

And most people don't know/understand/care what's going on in HK or Xinjiang.

~~~
cameronbrown
Blizzard fans would disagree. A small amount of voices has lead to massive
awareness in that community.

~~~
icu
Also the Blizzard fanbase has put pressure on the company to uphold its own
stated principles, which quite frankly Blizzard didn't, and arguably still
hasn't upheld.

I'd be surprised if less than 80% of Blizzard's fan base isn't aware of the
"Free HK" controversy and doesn't support the notion of freedom in HK to some
degree.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> I'd be surprised if less than 80% of Blizzard's fan base isn't aware of the
> "Free HK" controversy and doesn't support the notion of freedom in HK to
> some degree.

I assume you mean 80% of Blizzard's US fan base?

~~~
AlexanderNull
They took a hit in EU for it as well. You probably were referring to their
sino-servers but they do get a hint of what we see over there. Before
Blitzchung they were already facing some PR problems for their bans within OW
and WoW for anyone who happened to type anything related to winnie the pooh in
chat.

------
jakobmi
For better or worse, it sounds a lot like Qi screwed YC here. Raising 55mn
USD, leveraging the YC brand, and keeping all of the profits and upside to
himself in China.

On a fairer note, I think YC got to ask: what unfair advantage do we have in
this country?

Most of their advantages are network effects in SV and brand-awareness in the
western world. Their advantages in the US are MUCH higher than in China, where
you'd have to build much from scratch, rebuild the investors' and founders'
networks. If Qi was supposed to bring all this -- which he undoubtedly had as
ex-COO of Baidu -- why would he need YC at all?

I'm not going into the details of his personality or whether this is a
gentleman's move or are the highest standards of honesty and integrity. You
shall make your own opinion about Chinese business.

That to say, all of this -- just like any other comment here obviously -- is a
hypothesis and nothing less. So take each comment with a huge grain of salt
:).

Cheers

~~~
jorgezaccaro
You got it right. I read the announcement in Chinese on WeChat before any
reports were available in English, and had to check other sources to make sure
I was not misreading the facts. I attended all YC events in Beijing (May 2018,
May 2019, June 2019) and certainly noticed some changes in marketing messages
and a declining role of US partners, but never expected this sudden
"rebranding" to happen. After leveraging the YC brand to gather resources and
attract applicants, this just feels like a shameless takeover.

------
archibaldJ
OP here (no affiliation with YC in anyway), posted the link because was
surprised it wasn't already on HN.

I first got to know about it on WeChat actually. There was an announcement
from the official WeChat account of YC China in regard to the split-up (link:
[https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/SnSsli_ZGo0yI58YD-
ddaw](https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/SnSsli_ZGo0yI58YD-ddaw)), though the
announcement took a much more positive and exciting tone than its English
counterpart. The announcement from YC China talked a lot about 本土化 (which is
not to be confused with sinicisation （汉化））。 As someone who has moved back to
China recently, I noticed that 本土化 is actually a really big thing in China and
it basically means localisation on steroid to become more similar to other
products/services in China in every aspect (including HR, internal operations,
etc).

Anyway I'm fascinated by all the comments here, none of which discussed the
cultural and sociopolitical differences between that of the west and that of
China, which I believe is one of the main factors that have enabled the
disintegration between YC and YC China.

The Chinese government is one thing. But "the Chinese way" is another thing.
And "the Chinese way" actually underlines how the Chinese society works and
how the Chinese government functions. To understand "the Chinese way", one has
to try to emulate a generalisation of how a Chinese person thinks and acts in
this day and age after all these revolutions and wars and pandemonium that
have shaped the land and the way people interpret things and interact with one
another. Without great knowledge in the modern Chinese history and a good
grasp of the contemporary Chinese language and culture (from a none-bias
perspective as much as possible), it's extremely difficult to form a proper
mental representation of "the Chinese way". The thing is not many Chinese
people are aware of this too (since they are already operating under "the
Chinese way", emulating it would be like running a meta-circular interpreter -
not impossible just highly difficult for an average person). Perhaps this is
why people (Chinese and none-Chinese) often resort to understanding China
through the lens of the media (i.e. state-sponsored or company-sponsored) and
that is akin to looking at a 2d projection of a higher dimension object.

~~~
addictedcs
It's the same narrative all over again. When no strong arguments are present
to defend a viewpoint, the topic suddenly becomes a "cultural" thing. Sounding
smart and mysterious. In Russia, it's "the Russian way", in China it is "the
Chinese way" etc. It's just BS.

~~~
archibaldJ
What you have just said is very postmodern and the meta-narrative (or meta-
sentiment) could be applied to virtually anything. I was merely trying to
shift the focus of the heated discussion here as things were getting
homogenous and reddit-like.

~~~
pas
Huh. Claiming that there are no valid outer narrative is postmodern.

~~~
archibaldJ
That is the central problem of the postmodern. It is a framework that
inevitably dismisses itself when you go enough meta-level up.

~~~
pas
I don't see why it dismisses itself. It asks questions, it's just philosophy
at that point and the good old epistemological questions. But the first and
second order thinking it encourages is a perfectly useful framework.

It helps understand situations vastly different from ours, but it doesn't
dismiss your own core values.

It's probably a good postmodern conclusion that truly understanding the
Chinese way is impossible without actually being completely in it, but at that
point you are again too biased. But that doesn't mean that without a full
immersion we can't gain valid insights about it. We can. We are perfectly
aware of the big picture, we have seen it hundreds of times by now in various
countries (and proto-countries) over the last few thousand years.

------
SandersAK
Personally I was really disappointed when YC opened up shop in China - to me
it really revealed a Profits over People approach and was pretty brazen at the
time.

Happy to see (for whatever reason) that they're recommitting to communities
that (at least on the surface) don't support fascist overtures.

~~~
noobermin
Echoing another poster, people and individuals who are Chinese are not their
government. You shouldn't equate working with Chinese individuals and talent
as a tacit support of their government.

~~~
SandersAK
You should do more digging into how "doing business in China" works before you
make this statement.

~~~
mherdeg
I really have no idea how "doing business in China" works. I thought I
understood it but I still don't...

An interesting thread last year suggested that in some cases companies spent
many years "doing business in China" as a form of ... de-escalation to avoid
nuclear war,
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17004546](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17004546)

------
thiscatis
Very disappointing and probably the least honest and transparant update from
YC.

~~~
crystaln
Even YC is cowed into silence by the might of China. Understandably so, even
if somewhat cowardly. Does YC want China to boycott or otherwise disable YC
companies? Does YC want to threaten any future relationship with China? No. So
they keep mum as to their real reasons.

~~~
unityByFreedom
Why disturb waters unnecessarily? YC's statement seems more like "let's wait
for a better time" than self-censorship.

If YC truly saw no chance for YC-China in the future, then I don't doubt they
would come out and say so. However, that's a pretty strong statement, and I
don't think anyone can make such a prediction. There is always a chance for a
more serendipitous time in the future.

~~~
unityByFreedom
Please do me the courtesy of writing a reply if you're going to downvote.
Thank you.

------
capableweb
While "As we worked to establish YC China, we had a change in leadership. With
this, our strategy changed back " does give 50% of the answer as to "why", I'd
be great to hear from otherwise transparent YC about why the strategy changed
and why it didn't work out.

~~~
localcrisis
would be good to hear what they plan on doing instead.

YC China was a bet at doing something different. With that gone—and idk if it
should have stayed or gone.. sometimes experiments fail—what is YCs plan?

Invite 200, 300, 500, 20,000 companies to SF? maybe it is the best option, but
also maybe not the best thing to do. YC Seems stuck in an innovator's dilemma.
Reminds me of Apple under Tim Cook. Keeping a good thing going, but nothing
innovative.

~~~
writimov
YC has been trying a bunch of things new to them. Not sure how they are
working out yet:

* Supporting more hardware specific companies.

* Supporting more biomed device tech companies.

* Scaling online with startup school.

* Trying to scale the number of companies who get accepted into the program.

There is still a lot to figure out in the 'nurture small/young companies'
space. That said, each country has its own unique challenges.

------
jakobmi
@YC Leadership: The Chinese Article [1] reads synonymously to: YC China was
RENAMED, not aborted. That's highly different from your English statement.

LOL: even the website ycchina.co redirects to MiraclePlus.
[http://www.ycchina.com/](http://www.ycchina.com/)

[1] [https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/SnSsli_ZGo0yI58YD-
ddaw](https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/SnSsli_ZGo0yI58YD-ddaw)

~~~
yorwba
I don't think there's any contradiction between the two statements. Y
Combinator stops their involvement in YC China, turning it into a separate
entity. YC China gets renamed MiraclePlus.

The announcement by YC emphasizes the separation from YC China, the
announcement by MiraclePlus emphasizes the continuity with YC China.

------
northfoxz
My observation is that Qi used the YC brand to help launch his MiraclePlus.
After that they part ways. The first batch of startups are very different from
regular YC companies.

[https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/KdfV4hF4qz8Ti1XL0i_S3A](https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/KdfV4hF4qz8Ti1XL0i_S3A)

~~~
avocado4
So form a partnership with US firm, extract IP and know-how, launch a clone in
China, and part ways. Sounds like a standard approach.

~~~
eternalban
Oh, and the Western "chumps" got "nothing". Is that the story line you are
selling here?

------
errantspark
I was hoping for a denouncement of China's actions in Hong Kong. One can
dream.

~~~
ngcc_hk
No need. Even as a hongkonger. Support thanks but normal business sense — that
comes the point. I find all these world venture is a bit naive. It is not
going to pay in the long term. If want to, why not Russia. At least you are
aware and have alarm bell rang.

------
thesausageking
Interesting that Qi Lu just raised $55m for his "MiraclePlus" last week:

[https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1792939/000179293919...](https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1792939/000179293919000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml)

I wonder Qi just decided to just go his own way.

~~~
unityByFreedom
> I wonder Qi just decided to just go his own way.

If that's the case, let him say so.

------
new_realist
I applaud this move. Given the recent history of actions by the Chinese
government, investment in China is not ethical.

~~~
ilyaeck
I doubt it's about ethic, it's about the ability to protect your investment on
foreign turf, in the current climate.

~~~
killface
yep, yc can't capture the patents if there's no patent system in place.

------
xmly
US will have a financial war with China soon. So it is wise to cut the tie
early.

~~~
godelski
Soon?

~~~
xmly
Maybe already.

------
zkid18
I visited Eric Migicovsky’s presentation in Hong Kong a year ago dedicated to
YC China. He is a founder of Pebble, YC partner, and helped Qi Lu a lot in
establishing YC China. Although China VC investments have almost surpassed US,
there were only three projects from Great China (Mainland China, Hong Kong,
Macau, Taiwan) in YC. They wanted to find out how they can bring more local
talents to SV.

Unfortunately, it seems they haven’t succeeded much. I think the main reason
is that Chinese entrepreneurs rarely want to target the international market.
They don’t really know much about it, they don’t have the network and they
have a huge domestic market, where they feel much more convenient.

The state of early-stage investment is different in China, compare to US or
Europe. You won’t find here many events or meetups where angles or early-stage
VC connected with entrepreneurs. They don’t actually like sharing events of
that kind. For example, the largest community of such kind in Shanghai is
founded by non-Chinese. The only way to reach a well-known VC fund is your
network. A warm introduction helps multiples your chances for fundraising
dramatically. Probably YC failed with establishing a good network among early-
stage VC funds in China, and moreover, they don’t have a strong brand there.

The Chinese market is not mature enough. Maybe in US you eager to make a blue
ocean project, but in China entrepreneurs mostly driven by higher returns.
China is all about scale - even a bad product may have a huge IRR. However,
never underestimate the local competitors. If the company managed to get a
series A fundraising and got coverage in media most probably they surpassed
30-40 completely identical companies. Such tight competition brings some
innovative ideas - WeChat, Doyin, VipKid. The western world can study these
cases. Unfortunately, there's been mostly negative coverage in media about
China nowadays. I worked in Chinese startups and in Chinese academia. People
are bright, high-skilled, and motivated. There are great visioners like Allen
Zhang or Frank Wong. Only a few entrepreneurs take advantage of CCP
regulations. Many of them claim that the party negatively affect the
investment and business climate in the country.

~~~
archibaldJ
Thanks for the intel! This is super great to know. It definitely helped to put
things into more perspective. So kudos for that! I saw an interview with Qi
the other day (back when it was still YC China) and Qi mentioned about funding
ambitious start-ups _that play the long game_ and are in early stage but have
little or no connections in China which mean these start-ups would otherwise
be ignored by Chinese investors. Do you think Qi's MiraclePlus will continue
to do that in the spirit of YC?

I saw an article coverage of YC China's last demoday (17 Nov) and noticed that
most start-ups graduated this year have had their angel rounds before entering
YC China, which could be due to the reason as you've described - YC China
failing to establish a good network among early-stage VC funds in China, thus
looking out more for post-angel companies. Or it could also be because there
were just too few aspiring early-stage start-ups in China. Perhaps funding
early-stage start-ups in China imposes a much higher risk than say in the
Valley.

Anyway do you think it would be possible for someone who has okay track record
but no direct connections with angels and VCs in China to get their early-
stage start-up angel-funded? Will it change a thing if it is an early stage
with MVP that has thousands of active users? What about an early stage in
artsy-style (i.e. as a small self-publishing media company related to the
tech/product being developed) with a self-media WeChat/Weibo account that has
tens of thousands of visitors every week?

I'm one of those people that ended up moving back to China and looking to
start a blue ocean project here. The early-stage investment landscape in China
really is not looking good right now, just wondering how that will change over
the next few years (especially in China where things are so fast-paced!) So
would also love your opinions on that! Thanks!

~~~
zkid18
> I'm one of those people that ended up moving back to China and looking to
> start a blue ocean project here.

I assume you're fluent in Chinese, that helps a lot. As for angel-funding
without connection, it could be a bit tuff. Also sometimes it helps to go
through your current Chinese network and to ask whether someone is envolve or
know people who involved in PE and VC. Btw, which city are you based?

> What about an early stage in artsy-style Try to reach
> [https://www.parklu.com/](https://www.parklu.com/) or similar KOL companies.
> They should be more familiar with the state of the business. But there've
> been a lot of media-incubators recently.

>I saw an article coverage of YC China's last demoday (17 Nov) Do you have a
link?

P.S. You can reach me in twitter for more questions
[https://twitter.com/kidrulit](https://twitter.com/kidrulit)

~~~
archibaldJ
Thanks for the pointer! Here is the link of the article coverage:
[https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/KdfV4hF4qz8Ti1XL0i_S3A](https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/KdfV4hF4qz8Ti1XL0i_S3A)
(it's in Chinese though) I'm based in Guangzhou at the moment.

~~~
zkid18
Thanks. I can read a little Chinese. Unfortunately, I don't know much about
GZ. However, I think in SZ the entrepreneur community is slightly more
developed

~~~
archibaldJ
I see. Yeah SZ definitely a more vibrant city. But am stuck in GZ for a while.
It's alright. Will figure out something. I'm connecting with people in the
contemporary art scene here. They are pretty nice.

------
Veedrac
The response to this is unfortunate. Consider the run-on effects it will have
on other companies that the primary response to YC pulling out of China is
negativity. Requiring companies to stake everything on an action like this
only serves to discourage any of them from acting.

YC did the right thing here, the comments should reflect that.

~~~
Aeolun
Maybe it’s a bit like the HK extradition bill retraction. Too little, and too
late.

------
quotz
I mean theres no place for western companies in China as seen times and times
again. This literally happens all the time

~~~
xmly
GM, Tesla and Apple are making tons of money in China now. Even Google and
Facebook are making over hundreds of millions of ads money each year from
China. Yes, Google and Facebook still have branches in China and make a lot of
money.

~~~
adventured
Unlike GM, Tesla and Apple, Facebook is not making money by operating _in_ the
Chinese market. Facebook is making money from Chinese advertisers via
resellers. It's Chinese capital being exported to Facebook outside of the
country, for a service operating entirely outside of China.

Equivalent to an advertiser in China going through a local ad broker that
works with the NY Times, to place an ad in the NY Times in a paper sold in
NYC.

------
ausjke
So YC's own China-version startup effort flopped basically.

It's at an awkward time per se, nobody wants to get serious business started
now at current climate, which could be the beginning of a sea change policy
from what has been here for the last 3 decades between US and China.

Techstars etc have lots of offices in US and Europe, how about YC expanding to
NY, Boston, Austin first? That will help US economy and foster some local
startup ecosystem as well.

------
loceng
Is MiraclePlus funded by or supported directly or indirectly by YC? Does YC
have a stake?

~~~
godelski
I found two things. Business Insider (via Reuters) [0] suggests no. I also
found a Chinese post, but I can't read this so maybe someone else can[1]

[0] [https://www.insider.com/silicon-valley-startup-incubator-
y-c...](https://www.insider.com/silicon-valley-startup-incubator-y-combinator-
closing-china-unit-2019-11)

[1]
[https://www.sohu.com/a/351116732_550313](https://www.sohu.com/a/351116732_550313)

~~~
nmfisher
The Sohu link doesn't talk about the link between YC and Miracle Plus, it's
just a brief bio about Qi Lu (he was speaking at that Tsinghua event).

------
justinzollars
I imagined this was going to happen. Lately PG has been more vocal on twitter
regarding Human Rights issues in China.

I understand this is a very difficult decision. I'm not sure if its right or
wrong. From the perspective of Human Rights its probably right, but from the
perspective of investment its difficult considering China's growth prospects.

I'm torn on the China issue and I personally hope our two countries can work
out their differences in a constructive way.

~~~
Loughla
As inflammatory as my last statement is going to seem, it's a genuine
question, I'm not trying to bait you -

But how does

>investment

Versus

>Human Rights

Equal

>I'm torn on the China issue

Do your morals and conscience have a price tag?

~~~
ddevault
This has got to be satire.

>I understand this is a very difficult decision. I'm not sure if its right or
wrong. From the perspective of Human Rights its probably right, but from the
perspective of investment its difficult considering China's growth prospects.

I can't believe a human being would actually write this. The level of
cognitive dissonance would be off the charts.

~~~
justinzollars
I don't really appreciate that. I would argue I'm pretty well informed on
China. I've traveled to China, I've worked with the Chinese for over a decade
across various roles, my grandfather helped industrialize China, and I've read
many great books on China. Personally I retweeted Hillary Clinton's support of
Hong Kong protestors while I was in Beijing, so I put myself at personal risk
in doing this.

But lets address your comment directly: "The level of cognitive dissonance
would be off the charts." Is it?

One book I recommend is Graham Allison "Destined for War".

[https://www.amazon.com/Destined-War-America-Escape-
Thucydide...](https://www.amazon.com/Destined-War-America-Escape-Thucydidess-
ebook/dp/B01IAS9FZY)

One question that specifically stands out from his book - is that the West
believes in Universal Human Rights. China obviously does not. This is a point
of conflict and we have some very difficult questions to address in the
future. Suppose China attacks Taiwan. What if China has a second Tiananmen in
Hong Kong? Do we sanction China? What if China responds with more violence?
What do we do? Do we go to war? This is an obvious point of conflict. And
these are questions that we will have to work out in the future.

From the perspective of an investor, these are also difficult decisions. We
can see this in how the NBA has responded, and how South Park has responded -
each differently. Is it really wise to Balkanize the world if our goal is to
encourage China to adopt Human Rights? How would a second cold war help?

Obviously I don't have the answers. But I can recognize the conflict from the
perspective of a VC whose goal is to make money.

~~~
CharlesColeman
> ...the West believes in Universal Human Rights. China obviously does not.

This is probably a case where more precision is warranted. The CCP and the
nearly synonymous PRC government obviously do not believe in Universal Human
Rights [1]. However "China" can be interpreted as the Chinese nation/people,
and many of them _do_ believe in human rights [see Hong Kong] or have been
deliberately kept ignorant of the concepts. It's not like rejection of human
rights is part of the national character, or anything.

> Is it really wise to Balkanize the world if our goal is to encourage China
> to adopt Human Rights? How would a second cold war help?

The Cold War was basically about containment, and it's an acknowledgment that
no good options are available. Recent history has shown that trade and
investment don't necessarily lead to liberalization, and military attacks are
out of the question. Besides containment, the only option left is
acceptance/appeasement.

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-
lea...](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-leadership-
takes-hard-line-in-secret-memo.html)

------
kbumsik
Did some people in the comments forget what happens to Blizzard? It would be
better not having a branch in China unless they are 100% sure they can be free
from any political issues around China, and we actually don't need to hear
"why" from YC.

~~~
throw_m239339
> unless they are 100% sure they can be free from any political issues around
> China

Which they can't. There is a price to pay when doing business with/in a bloody
dictatorship.

------
pkamb
"MiraclePlus" brings up only "Corn And Callus Dissolving Serum" on the Google
SERP.

------
ThrowAwayPRC
I'm really glad YC is taking a clear stand against China.

I also understand why they are not further ruffling any feathers by phrasing
their "update" as such.

It is also a bit disappointing from a patriotic standpoint that the general
public reaction to this update is that people are _sad_ YC is withdrawing.
Given how much we have all benefited from our nation's world-class innovation
economy here, we should at least pay the piper.

------
colechristensen
I would expect more, and more direct language.

Doing business with a fascist state or in a fascist state is deplorable. The
message should be loud and clear. China today shares many parallels with
Germany in the 1930s. There needs to be open frank opposition because
embarrassing them is the only way to stop them until the US is willing to park
an aircraft carrier group in HK waters.

~~~
plntd
Virtue signaling doesn't work in business. Should yc do any business in the US
which is mired in illegal wars and regime change operation all over the world?
What about Saudi arabia? Should silicon valley and traditional media give up
the billions in Saudi investment? Every major economic player is evil in some
form or another. And the parallel with china isn't nazi Germany. It's with
19th century US.

~~~
harimau777
The US certainly has its problems, but I don't think it's fair to draw a moral
equivalence with what's happening in China.

~~~
zlei
Chinese citizen here.

I guess you're implying that certain bad things are happening in China. Do you
really live in China and see those things happen, or just hear about them from
the media?

And is it possible that some of the media in US are inhonest? Just as there're
inhonest media in China.

I'm not fighting you on this topic; just don't understand why there's so much
hatred towards our country.

~~~
learc83
There is plenty of non US media reporting on the camps in Xinjiang.

Why don't you travel to Xinjiang and do some investigating. If the camps there
are really fabricated by the US media, surely the government won't mind you
traveling around and filming the suspected sites?

>just don't understand why there's so much hatred towards our country.

I don't hate you or the other people of your country. I'd love to visit
someday and relearn some of the Mandarin I learned in college. However, I do
hate what your government is doing to the people of Xinjiang. Why wouldn't I
be upset about this?

~~~
throwaway423342
There're serious security issues that need to be addressed in Xinjiang. Don't
assume it's related to racism. Also, when you use the word `camp` it
automatically reminds people of Nazi camps during WWII. They are not the same,
on multiple levels.

------
anonygler
Even YC got screwed by China. This is an intentional pattern: Lure US money
and then use backroom dealings to coordinate an outright theft.

~~~
tossAfterUsing
source?

------
zjoq9ka23rau
I'm a Chinese living in mainland China. My old account was suspended because I
told the truth about China Communist Party(CCP) below HK event thread (Qi and
his team censored it?). I believe you Americans see the essence of CCP from
the NBA/South Park/HK event. CCP controls everything in China and they are
evil. Doing business in China is helping the dying CCP. So I'm glad to see
that YC pull back 'YC China'. We old hundred names welcome you back to China
when CCP is dead. Thanks.

~~~
linyu0219
Your stupid name implies that you are a troll. Pls speak mandarin in front of
protesters to support them, but I'm afraid they won't give you the chance to
finish a sentence

------
RocketSyntax
"[We are canning YC China because of the macro political environment]."

------
noparity
This is great, brave decision by YC.

------
chj
Not surprised. You can't even visit HN from China without using VPN. I guess
there must be some pressure not revealed in the announcement.

------
nightsd01
China’s best tech is mostly just stolen American tech so I can understand why
they’d want to focus on US startups.

~~~
throwaway423342
This is true 5 years ago. Things have changed.

~~~
avocado4
People keep saying that, but I don't really buy it. Scanning barcodes isn't
really necessary when you have everybody with a credit card and every local
merchant accepts NFC payment. Everybody using crappy unencrypted JS-based
WeChat mini-programs instead of an app ecosystem is not an innovation but
rather a way to lock and monitor the entire population with no privacy. Same
goes for police-state facial recognition.

~~~
tikkabhuna
> Scanning barcodes isn't really necessary when you have everybody with a
> credit card and every local merchant accepts NFC payment.

The QR codes are quite cool in that anyone with a printer can print them out.
I can't pay my friends with my contactless credit card in the same way I can
pay a merchant.

Its a different approach with different pros and cons.

~~~
avocado4
You can just venmo your friends.

------
echan00
That's okay. Every great organization needs to experiment, and many of those
experiments will not work out.

------
shasheene
It suprises me that intelligent, reasonable people like Andrew Ng and Sam
Altman were willing to help develop and invest in the Chinese Communist
Party's AI/ML capabilities helping to create an authoritarian surveillance
state used to repress minorities (Uighers, Tibetans, Falun Gong) on a scale
not seen since Adolf Hitler.

The CCP and private companies are hand-in-glove. The risks of working with
state-owned enterprises are clear. The risks of working with private companies
are are also great with "party cells" officially embedded into at least half
of private companies.

Fortunately for the free world, China faces massive structural issues to
growth over the next 40 years, which the CCP is unable or unwilling to deal
with. I highly recommend [1] and [2] to understand the future of the brutal
Chinese dictatorship.

[1]
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/01/17/world/asia/ch...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/01/17/world/asia/china-
population-crisis.html)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AvNT3vyzr0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AvNT3vyzr0)

EDIT: Instead of down voting, please articulate why you disagree.

~~~
doublekill
Did not downvote, I hate all views equally.

Perhaps it is the enormous cognitive dissonance. Western companies also take
military funding and their surveillance systems were always better and more
invasive.

The US is using statutes for national security interests to ban Chinese
companies for contributing to alledged human rights abuses. Meanwhile we have
documented human rights abuses in the West, and a US that does not shy away to
cover a trade war and skewed commercial motives with anti-China propaganda.

US companies and agencies surveil outside the US. Capitalism-commercialization
gave our rights to the likes of Zuckerberg and Amazon, who will turn your door
bell into a police camera.

The Godwin was also a tad unnecessary. Perhaps you are a bit caught up in the
heat of the moment. The propaganda machine is definately turning up the heat,
so I do not blame you. Try to pose your argument without claiming the moral
highground of the "free world". It is never fortunate that an entire country
and its people struggles.

Accusing Ng and Altman of helping build a fascist surveillance state is a
nasty accusation, which I feel you are not allowed to make.

Remember when the US had concentration camps for Japanese-Americans? Countries
can change even without pressure or backlash (the US did not face any). Can
you think of a modern group of people in the US being secluded from
participation, facing state racism, and being locked away in ghettos, with no
hope of social movement? Would China be justified in boycotting or sanctioning
US companies for contributing to ICE, Guantanamo bay, or police violence, or
Flynt's water, or Trump's racism?

Freedom of religion gave the US scientology and TV pastors and schools
preaching creationism. It gave Europe extremist Salafism and terrorist attacks
and people using the Bible to go after immigrants. You have to see China in
that context: they see religion as a dangerous memetic virus to indoctronate
youthful people into believing something not of their own choice. Countries
have a right to make their own laws and their own tactics for improvement and
combating extremism.

Edit: you may also receive downvotes from people who hate to hear negative
stuff on China, or are paid 50 cents to do so.

~~~
shasheene
Comparing Uigher concentration camps to Nazi Germany is valid and accurate,
not a frivolous example of Godwin's law.

Your comment has a lot of whataboutism that isn't relevant to the discussion.
I'll mention that US presidents have formally apologized several times for
Japanese-American internment (which was 75 years ago), and that I would
encourage anybody (and any government) to boycott and sanction companies
contributing to human rights abuse.

------
ilamont
As others have noted, the announcement does not reveal the thinking that went
into this decision. But certainly pg and other principals are aware of what's
happening in the People's Republic of China under the Xi regime. pg retweeted
the following news items about China recently:

[https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1195728248040087552](https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1195728248040087552)
_The New York Times @nytimes Nov 16 China has detained up to a million
Muslims, a campaign it calls a benevolent and routine effort against the pull
of extremism. But 403 pages of Communist Party documents we obtained reveal
how officials plotted to carry out a ruthless, coercive clampdown._

[https://twitter.com/CoveringDelta/status/1196491222765965314](https://twitter.com/CoveringDelta/status/1196491222765965314)
_Demetri Kofinas @CoveringDelta Nov 18 We 've known for years that governments
are interested in developing bioweapons that target specific populations. What
I didn't know until this week's episode are the lengths to which the CCP has
reportedly gone to obtain the genomic data needed to do it._

[https://twitter.com/nathanattrill/status/1192670115017310208](https://twitter.com/nathanattrill/status/1192670115017310208)
_Nathan Attrill 周雷森 @nathanattrill Nov 8 In China, it’s possible to pre-book
an organ transplant, something that would be impossible under a voluntary
donor system – raising suspicions of widespread organ harvesting._

------
pastor_elm
would love a postmortem on the whole attempt and the real difficulties that
came about.

------
celticninja
Too much PRC input perhaps?

~~~
ruchir_21hj
what is PRC?

~~~
big_chungus
It's the technical name for China. Personally I don't use it; China is not a
"people's republic".

~~~
scarmig
Technically, there are two governments that claim to be China: the People's
Republic of China, and the Republic of China. Both claim to rule Taiwan and
mainland China. "China", then, is underspecified, because no one means to
claim that the ROC is running concentration camps.

------
m0zg
That's to be expected. IMO we should decouple and diversify as quickly as we
can. It took Trump to highlight that fact, which tells me the establishment
was OK with selling out US of A for a buck as quickly as the Chinese would buy
it, sweatshops and concentration camps notwithstanding. It's not like they
didn't know. It's just that the right bureaucratic wheels were greased with
money at the right times by those who stood to gain from it all.

------
nafizh
Regardless of the reason YC is putting out, it doesn’t look good to have
business as usual while mass genocide of a minority is going on nearby.

------
iamaelephant
Fuck China

------
Mizza
Launching in China was a stupid, shamelessly greedy and ultimately
embarrassing decision to begin with, but it's good that they've changed
course.

To those who have been living under a rock for the past thirty years: The PRC
is a genocidal, expansionist ethnostate that tortures and kills those it deems
enemies, which is everybody who isn't ethnically Han and supportive of the
leader of the Communist Party. YC knew this when it opened an office there.

My real question is - now that you've invited them in and shown them around,
will they create a state-owned YCombinator of their own? It'll be interesting
to see how elite state-owned venture capital will work.

~~~
ipsa
> how elite state-owned venture capital will work

Perhaps something like:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-
Tel)

[https://www.darpa.mil/work-with-us/commitment-to-small-
busin...](https://www.darpa.mil/work-with-us/commitment-to-small-businesses)

[https://arsenalgrowth.com/](https://arsenalgrowth.com/)

[https://www.welcomeurope.com/european-subsidies-sector-
Innov...](https://www.welcomeurope.com/european-subsidies-sector-
Innovation.html)

------
systemdtrigger
I was wondering why one of the fastest upvoted articles on HN, ever, was on
second page. Now i know, and of course. YC , like other tech firms want to
keep their business interest in China come to fruition.

Surely they must account for too many anti-votes coming from a single region?

~~~
dang
Not sure what we're being accused of here. To rattle off some things in the
general vicinity: we didn't touch this story, other than to _remove_ the
flamewar penalty that HN's software put on it. That's not because the software
got it wrong—it got it right. But we moderate HN less, not more, when YC or a
YC-funded startup is involved:
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20moderate%20less%20not%20more%20yc&sort=byDate&type=comment).

Re "want to keep their business interest in China come to fruition"—ending
one's business interest in China is a strange way to do that. How devious they
must be!

------
bigpumpkin
MiraclePlus offers $200,000 for 5%, is the OG YCombinator gonna match that?

