
Javascript Frameworks Are Amazing and Nobody Is Happy - EvilTrout
http://wekeroad.com/2013/08/22/js-frameworks-are-amazing-and-no-one-is-happy
======
fizx
Programming tends to this pattern where people get super-excited when a
language gets a feature everyone else has taken for granted forever. It's like
a guy getting out of the hospital after shooting himself in the foot. You know
what's better? Not shooting yourself.

Congrats Javascript--on almost being as good at data-binding and layout as
VB6! Me, I'm going to keep kvetching about javascript frameworks until flexbox
is widely supported, the strongly-typed language flavor-of-the week actually
is stable, and frameworks like angular don't embrace silent failure modes as a
feature.

~~~
TheZenPsycho
Yes yes, everything that's happening now has happened before with other
technologies. Except this time:

1\. it's in a runtime that is in more machines than any other in history.

2\. can be loaded instantaneously with no installation procedures.

3\. and no plugins

4\. On almost any platform, linux, mac, windows, ios, android, windows phone,
blackberry, palm, chrome OS, even game consoles. Including the nintendo DS!

5\. is broadly accessible to people with various kinds of disabilities

6\. doesn't require a team of 20 engineers taking 4 years to build. (which
other tech has achieved, and arguably much better, but not combined with the
other things above)

7\. Works on miniature computer machines small enough to fit in your pocket,
and can download your app wirelessly. From the air. _in your pocket_. FROM
FUCKING OUTER SPACE

(incidentally, did HN skip out on the whole ordered list notation of
markdown?)

edit; To add a couple more points:

* SEARCH ENGINES can automatically index your shit.

* We have these things called hyperlinks which allow automatic, ubiquitous and pervasive interoperation everywhere.

I see a common pattern on HN where whenever the topic of javascript comes up,
all you see is pages and pages of wretching about how AWFUL it is, and how you
could do X in Y language Z years ago already. That's not the hacker spirit. A
hacker looks at what's out there, and what's possible, shuts up, and builds
something awesome with it. (and then wretches about how awful it was)

In fact, the WORSE the underlying technology used to build something awesome,
the more proud the hacker is that they achieved it. Where's that spirit?

Sure it's not as nice to program in as your favourite language or environment,
but it's come a long damn way. would you give it a minute?

~~~
luikore
Absolutely not. These statements are boring because everyone knows there are
javascript everywhere on the internet. But so what? We should pay more
attention to GOOD languages rather than popular languages. It's not javascript
a great language but the people made the products great people. They could do
even better if javascript is not so popular.

~~~
TheZenPsycho
What about javascript's popularity, exactly, is stopping you from making
something great? Use whatever hipster language you want, I say. The only
question is how are you going to get people to look at what you make if you
can't put it on the internet?

~~~
luikore
Internet runs fine without JS, just like Hacker News... But yes, I should not
spend time arguing something which doesn't worth it and go back make some real
things.

------
ZenoArrow
To me, the issue isn't that modern JavaScript frameworks are sub-optimal, but
rather that proficiency in the high number of competing frameworks is a
sizeable time sink that shouldn't need to exist. These frameworks are
essentially band-aids over the true issues in the core web development tools,
and until that core matures to the point where the frameworks are unnecessary
then you'll still see people reluctant in investing much time in absorbing
knowledge that is likely to rapidly become obsolete.

~~~
mzarate06
Fully agree.

I love JavaScript, but I hate having to switch between BackBone, Angular,
Dojo, etc. between projects. Learning each one, as well intentioned as they
are, winds up being a productivity hit at some point, if not semi-regularly.

In a way I feel as if I've spent more time _learning_ how to get things done
w/JavaScript frameworks, than actually getting them done.

~~~
sophacles
Even more frustrating than what you said (which is very frustrating) - Having
already learned ember or backbone or whatever last year, I need to revisit it,
or want to use it in my current project because it fits nicely. Or rather it
used to. Turns out that in making it better (for whatever the "it" is) they
changed fundamental bits on you, in such a way that you basically have to
learn another new framework.

Heaven forbid you go back and maintain the stuff written with the old version
of the framework...

~~~
mzarate06
Yes, and that's why I'm now gun-shy to adopt any framework, JavaScript or
otherwise.

For example, in LAMP context, I hit the problem you mention w/the Zend
Framework 1 -> Zend Framework 2 upgrade path, as well as with Kohana 2 ->
Kohana 3. ZF 2, in particular, pushed a lot of loyal ZF devs away, and after
trying to upgrade existing projects, and use it for new projects, I'd say
rightfully so. Now I'm stuck maintaining a large handful of projects built on
top of unsupported frameworks.

------
dvt
I think that what the "problem" _really_ is, is that programming has become so
accessible. Of course, I don't mean that this is an actual problem, but just
that with more people writing code, the community has more people being
generally shitty.

Furthermore, the general shittiness of post-y2k developers has seeped into the
corporate veins of tech companies everywhere. So this is why you see Go
"gunning" for Ruby or Rust "gunning" for Go, or whatever. And I speak from
experience. When I was in my late teens (I'm 27 now), I totally thought
Javascript sucked; and, in many senses, it's not an ideal language. But I
mean, I was _really_ out there with my shitty (and uninformed) opinion that JS
sucks.

Fast-forward a couple of years after I forced myself to do a lot of
development with many (many) languages -- as opposed to being force-fed X or Y
language by Z company -- and I have a different outlook. There are very few
languages (or frameworks, for that matter) that _suck_ \-- furthermore, saying
X sucks is simply insulting the (probably much smarter than you) author of X.
This doesn't happen much on HN (people usually have well-thought out opinions)
but it's very apparent on SO or the myriad of other forums/newsgroups.

I now love JS. I don't think it's amazing or anything, but I've been having as
much fun writing JS as I've had writing C (which is saying a lot -- C is
_very_ fun). If I _could_ get a freebie, though, I'd have to say that C++
sucks :P

So I agree with the sentiment of the OP and I think this is more prevalent now
rather than 10 or 20 years ago because we have a much larger community of
developers. Which, in some ways, is good but in others can be bad.

------
qntmfred
Along these same lines, I can't even imagine what it must have been like to be
a programmer (or any other kind of knowledge worker) before the web. You mean
I have this problem and I need to wait 6 months for somebody to write a book
about it, and then read the whole thing cover to cover in hopes that he/she
wrote about something pertaining to my problem? phfft this is bullshit

~~~
jamesbritt
Well, before the Web there was Gopher and Archie and BBS's.

It wasn't the Dark Ages.

Maybe more like the Early Dawn Ages.

~~~
klibertp
There was also an option of sitting down with paper and pencil and actually
solving the problem, reinventing the wheel for the thousandth time. Or you
could reach out to specific people you knew were likely to know something
about the problem and socialize a bit by the way.

Both approaches had some good sides to them and it's a shame that they're not
even considered as options now, which GP seems to demonstrate.

~~~
jamesbritt
Yeah, it occurred to me that way back when, as I was learning C on a C=64
(though later I was able to buy a _super powerful_ 386 machine) that as I was
trying to code up alife and neural net programs my problems were rarely of the
"What's the workaround for a bug in alife.js or alife.rb" sort.

I wrote out a lot of pseudo-code and drew diagrams and when stuff didn't work
I could often figure it out by poking through the K&R book or the manual for
my compiler.

As it became easier to spread code and ideas it also became easier to spread
more sophisticated but sometimes opaque libraries and tools, and perhaps
ironically it is those new libraries and tools that most require the increased
communication because while they offer more power they also introduce more
complex bugs and quirks.

------
surrealize
It's a cliche by now that oldsters always think that youngsters are spoiled by
having it too easy. "In my day, we had to walk to school uphill two miles in
the snow" etc. And, like so many other cliches, it's true!

Things used to really suck, and now they're a lot better. That happens every
generation--mankind's physical culture does keep on improving in a lot of
ways. Older people are proud of all the progress they've made. And young
people take the new and improved stuff for granted and complain.

But that complaining is a good thing! Expectations keep increasing with every
generation. If we didn't always have new people coming on scene and getting
frustrated with the status quo, then we'd stagnate as a culture.

The kids are all right. It would be nice if they appreciated what they have
more. On the other hand, they'll get old and have the same experience too.

~~~
PommeDeTerre
I'm not sure that's true at all. A lot of us older developers look at the
tools we used in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, and we can't help but notice how
much better they are, even today, than many of the most-hyped tools these
days.

I feel sorry for many of the younger developers today who only know of
JavaScript, PHP, NoSQL and web development. They don't know what they're
missing out on, nor do they truly know how inferior their tools are.

And when it comes to getting serious work done, we still use C, C++ and
Fortran today. Yes, they've advanced in many ways over time, but I think they
just go to show how much better many technologies were in years past. Even
modern tools just can't compete with them.

~~~
mistercow
>NoSQL

I don't feel sorry for anyone who hasn't had to work with relational
databases.

~~~
prodigal_erik
I feel kind of sorry for anyone using a database with no schema enforcement,
who has yet to learn why hope is not a strategy for maintaining its integrity
over time. I've seen Notes documents decay to nonsensical states the app can't
handle at all within five years.

~~~
mistercow
I haven't actually used NoSQL in a project, so I can't speak to whether those
disadvantages are worth the trade off or not in practice. What I can say is
that it _is_ a trade off to use a relational database.

The problem with relational databases is that constructing queries for
anything but the simplest operations is incredibly counterintuitive, and easy
to screw up in subtle ways. Then, the data you get out is usually nothing like
the actual structure you need, so you have to process it and squish it into
the shape you want. The common results I've seen of this are 1) programmers
writing loops to execute simple queries that they can understand, and 2)
programmers writing insanely inefficient or totally broken complex queries.
And that's assuming that the database was designed correctly (or even sanely)
in the first place.

And yes, you can use an ORM, but then it becomes even more questionable
whether you're getting any sort of benefit over NoSQL.

The crux of the problem is that the standard-issue persistence mechanism for
web development is something that superficially appears to be accessible via
ordinary programming knowledge, but actually turns out to have been developed
by a long lost Martian colony whose technological evolution followed a
radically different path from our own. MySQL is not something you should jump
into without having at least read a book on relational database design, and
that's a step that many programmers clearly do not take.

Current NoSQL solutions clearly have their problems too, but from what I can
tell, they don't seem to be insurmountable ones. And at least it's a step in a
_new_ direction, even if it's not quite the right one. Bad database design and
use is a plague, and it's pretty clear by now that education alone isn't a
practical solution.

------
ascendantlogic
As a 35 year old developer who was using CSS and Javascript in the pre-jQuery
days, this really strikes a chord with me. Things like Meteor and Angular and
Bootstrap BLOW MY MIND. I understand this is the way of technology but truly
we live in a gilded age of app development. Sometimes it's nice to take a
retrospective and think about how awesome things really are.

~~~
KirinDave
I'm gonna pretend you're just bad with word choice and were sincere with your
post...

While it's good to maintain a positive attitude and congratulate ourselves on
the progress we've made, it's unwise to call ourselves "awesome." We're
anything but.

Web development is still way harder than it should be. Javascript is still
much worse than it could be. Node.js is still a bad plan. Software is very
much in its infancy. We're still 10-25 years behind the state of the art in
the industry, and many people get defensive if you point it out because their
egos are tightly coupled with their work work methodology.

It's not hopeless, but it's nowhere near done. And hyper-nested callbacks are
a primitive that we should grow beyond, and numerous methods to do so are not
only possible, but already researched and proven before you and I were born.

~~~
ascendantlogic
This "we're anything but" mindset is self-perpetuating. 10-25 years from now
the next generation of programmers will be saying _the same thing_. Before
1995 the concept of spending a weekend, making a reasonably functional web app
and having the entire planet access it at a moment's notice simply was not
feasible to even entertain mentally to anyone except those in academic and
military circles who already had access to the Internet, and even then the
"reasonably functional in a weekend" was not part of that equation.

If we stop focusing on what's "wrong" and take a moment to see how incredible
people's reach and speed-to-market is compared to even 10-15 years ago, we
might actually take a moment to stop talking about how terrible everything is
and marvel at just how far we've come.

Glass half-full is what I'm trying to accomplish here.

~~~
KirinDave
> This "we're anything but" mindset is self-perpetuating. 10-25 years from now
> the next generation of programmers will be saying the same thing.

Depends. If they're still 20 years behind academia, they deserve to be saying
it. If they still have this weird culture that abhors modern advances in favor
of "getting shit done" and wastes time arguing what kind of text editor
matters, they deserve to say that.

> Glass half-full is what I'm trying to accomplish here.

I like to say that the glass has 118.29 cubic centimeters of water in it.

------
pothibo
I believe the problem with _every_ framework out there is that they focus too
much on how they solve trivial problems and not enough on how you can use them
in complex scenario.

I think people are pissed when they start with a new framework is the lack of
ERROR messages.

I wished errors were more verbose. I don't care if the error message takes 5
lines. When I'm used to a framework, i'll know from the second word what is
the error.

On the other hand, when I don't know the framework, I have no ideas what is
assumed and what isn't. Print all the remotely possible culprit. That will
give me an idea how it works.

Errors will help me learn and progress.

~~~
rasmuskl
Agreed. I wish more open source would make it an actual goal to provide
awesome error messages. A good example is the Rebus service bus for .NET which
has it as an actual goal to have the best error messages - resulting in stuff
like:

[https://github.com/mookid8000/Rebus/blob/master/src/Rebus/Co...](https://github.com/mookid8000/Rebus/blob/master/src/Rebus/Configuration/DetermineMessageOwnershipFromRebusConfigurationSection.cs#L40-L76)

------
gavinlynch
tldr; it's a satirical cross-section of programming and comedy, and is
specifically a play on the classic Louis C K cellphones/airplane rant as it
pertains to javascript frameworks:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk)

~~~
zalew
Even more specifically, the blog post is an adaptation of the shorter version
he told on Conan's show. (linked below the post)

------
Zigurd
There are two facts about Web apps that few people seem to be able to hold in
their heads at the same time:

1\. Web apps are incredibly useful and convenient. Web apps are always up to
date and pervasive because the Web runtime is everywhere. Some apps only need
ever be Web apps.

2\. The Web was designed to be a feature-rich hypertext system, not an
application runtime and system-wide UI framework. Web apps will never be as
good as native apps, something that was rediscovered in mobile devices.

Both are true. Both will be true for a long time to come.

~~~
jacques_chester
In a different world everyone wound up using Java Net Launching Protocol ...

------
acv
Sooo, am I the only one on here who thinks this is really funny? Like laugh-
out-loud funny? Like, literally right now there are 110 comments on this page
about a light-hearted spoof and not one mention of the word funny.

Like I know you're just dying to tell someone their argument is absurd,
precisely backward, badly false, from another reality, or some other
hyperlogical sounding construction that no human would ever actually use in
normal conversation - but chill OUT. Do you really need to immediately jump
into a flame war about BASIC?

Can't you just chuckle at the fact that yeah, we are all kinda entitled turds
form time to time when it comes to tech, and then like go about your day and
build something and go home?

I mean come on -- "It's going to space, give it a sec." \-- that's funny.

~~~
dalacv
I think that everyone was probably put off that this was a total ripoff of
Louie CKs bit. More credit should have been given at the top of the article.

~~~
reeses
It was better with the credit buried. Those who know, know. There was this
delightful, hopeful, uncertainty at first. "Is he going to pull a Louis CK
riff? I think he is...yes!"

Then it was a matter of seeing if he was going to drop the ball (there were
some fumbles) but maybe "x is awesome and nobody is happy" will be the
aristocrats for a less obscene demographic.

So yeah, we can bitch about the 19 location-aware social cloud startups
announced each day, but it's also good to get frickin' excited with what you
can do for free with some stuff you download onto a laptop while on an
airplane.

Imagine going up to your 8-year old self and saying,"You know that Atari 800
you love second only to your dog? Look at my PHONE! It could tell you the
weather right where we are, without having to tell it where we were! I could
look up what you were doing right now! Um, look at these birds going after
these pigs!"

------
sergiotapia
I've never met people like this before. Almost everybody who I've heard trash-
talk a language or framework was either very new to it and felt frustrated, or
just a bad programmer.

Having said that, not all JS frameworks are built the same. ;) And you're
entitled to have a preference and not be "Louis CK'd" into loving everything
under the sky.

------
tn13
I started off as a Rails web developer in 2007 and slowly moved to PHP and
Javascript. A little before NodeJS got popular I was a full time JS developer
mostly writing client side code.

When I started with NodeJS, I was like a kid in the candy store. Before I
blinked there were hundreds of npm modules supporting everything including aws
management to controlling robots.

I have tried a lot of nodejs web frameworks. They are all amazing and I wish
them success but I have realized that there is nothing great to be gained by
using JS at server side compared to using say rails.

~~~
twerquie
> I have realized that there is nothing great to be gained by using JS at
> server side compared to using say rails.

Web sockets, anything with many thousands of concurrent connections is better
in node.js. They each have their strengths, which overlap very little.

------
santoshalper
Maybe they're annoyed because even though the frameworks are great, they are
still stuck programming in shitty JavaScript and they know there are about
1,000 better programming languages.

~~~
CmonDev
Hey, I beg to differ! HTML and CSS are pretty crappy as well!

------
daemonl
Our customers demand more of us, we demand more of our frameworks.

It wasn’t long ago that building a site that worked on a mobile was the most
fantastic and impressive thing they had ever seen. Before that, there weren’t
even ‘mobiles’ to have ‘sites’ on.

If the demands put on programs were the same as they were 10, 20 years ago, I
would have my week’s work done in 5 minutes. But it’s not amazing any more,
it’s boring and usual and old as soon as it is released. Our customer or boss
just saw a new example up on nvd3, so d3’s dead now, and you better have
already learned nvd3 (that’s a pretty old example), oh and it still works on a
mobile, and fills my retina display, right? Oh and it doesn’t move properly
when I scroll on my android tablet. That’s the same as an iPad, right? Oh and
John said it’s broken in IE.

Our demands come from our customer’s expectation that this stuff is easy now.
And hells yeah it is SO much easier than it used to be, but it’s far from
being as easy as they think it is.

We usually only have an hour to get going in a new framework, if it’s not
clear after that, we move on, because something newer (better?) just hit #1 on
HN.

But let’s remember how exiting all of this is. Programming has changed for the
better. It’s cool and in demand now. People are paying us to do the cool
things we used to dream about, they just might not be giving us quite enough
time, so we blame the frameworks.

------
pspeter3
I feel like part of the problem is that there seems to be a weird form of
commodity fetishism that happens with front-end frameworks where your choice
defines you as a developer. While that's always been true for OS, language and
text editor, it seems more inane when applied to front end frameworks. They
all have their own use cases and the major three are all impressively written

------
toddh
When I detect this attitude in myself it's often because I'm thinking of these
things as a means to an end instead of a thing in itself. So I get impatient
because I WANT TO GET STUFF DONE RIGHT NOW and pick your framework is in my
way. This a great reminder to step back, appreciate, and give props to all the
hard work people do out there.

------
javajosh
The best thing about JavaScript is jsfiddle and codepen. There's really no
equivalent for any other programming environment.

------
monokrome
I loved JavaScript during what this calls the "rotary phone" era, and I'll
have to say that JavaScript "frameworks" haven't come very far. They just grow
as fast as the browsers do.

Browsers have gone far. Browsers are amazing. Frameworks are still boring.

------
gtrak
My interpretation: javascript is slowly catching up to the rest of the world.
It's reach both makes it a lingua franca and slows it down. Maybe one day it
will be suitable for real programming, if people who complain after 10 minutes
would stop holding it back.

------
aznjons
The drive of the hacker is to solve problems and find novel or efficient
solutions to problems and the tools used to solve those problems.

It's not surprising that this can be taken to the extreme as we strive to
continually optimize our tools, which are especially flexible since they are
spun out of almost pure abstraction.

A healthy dose of perspective is helpful to reminds us that at the end of the
day we solve problems and make cool things.

Though dealing with poorly designed man-made abstractions can be frustrating,
we are fortunate to have the opportunity to improve our tools and environments
and it's especially incredible how collaborative the effort is (open source)
compared to some other industries.

------
DrewAllyn
The people who complain about how things work are the people who make things
better. If everyone was satisfied with jQuery and felt that JS development
could stop after that then we wouldn't be where we are today, and if everybody
thinks that where we are now is fine then tomorrow will look exactly the same
as today. I, for one, want tomorow to look different (and better) regardless
of how rosy it looks today, so I will continue complaining. When I can, I will
also do something about my complaints, and I do submit patches when I can, but
unfortunately thats not always feasible.

------
ialex
Haters gona hate. You can't make everybody happy, but there are enough
frameworks out there you pick one you like and let everybody do the same

------
locusm
"it’s wasted on the crappiest generation of just spoiled idiots that don’t
care, because this is what people are like now"

Louis CK sums it up better than I could ever articulate

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk&feature=player_d...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk&feature=player_detailpage#t=35)

------
eponymous
A million thumbs down for the author stealing Louie CK's stand-up routine
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk))
and reapplying it to Javascript in a way that just didn't fit. Also nothing
substantial was said. Boo!

~~~
StevenXC
> A million thumbs down for the author stealing Louie CK's stand-up routine

Note the line at the bottom of the piece:

> Credit: [http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8m5d0_everything-is-
> amazin...](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8m5d0_everything-is-amazing-
> and-nobody-i_fun)

~~~
vehementi
Not... really a good enough attibution... I'm supposed to go watch that link
at the bottom of the article and then cross reference it with the funny things
said in the article? I was expecting the very first link in the heading to
point to that routine and for it to be 'the joke'.

~~~
reeses
If you don't know the routine, it won't be funny anyway.

It's an easy way of excluding people under 40. Like when we talk about being
afraid to visit Northern Ireland or getting nuked.

------
eonil
No. Wrong. They're not happy because it's not amazing. Because they can
sensing something you cannot sense.

Well, only for certain type of apps - static input/output forms -, this maybe
true. But none of them is amazing for any further type of apps.

You can be happy because you don't know any _further_.

------
teeja
"Wow, Catullus, thanks for the chariot ride ... the last time I had to run for
a day and a half and .... Recedite! excreta caballus!"

"Wow, beaming to the surface is so much faster than that goddamn shuttle. And
... hey! This shirt wasn't this shade of blue before! Mother$#)!($&!"

------
mmanfrin
We're also doing a magnitude more with these frameworks than was ever possible
before. Tools are better and bigger, but so are roles and responsibilities.
There are different sets of problems that now need to be solved.

------
bobwaycott
> _" Well, I can't do any more things now. I can't do any more things."_

I just love that. I've encountered that attitude so many times.

------
dalacv
You should give more credit to the original creator of these ideas. Put the
link at the top and at least mention him in your article.

------
cdl
Let's not forget about the awesome tooling that is available and actively
development for JS web development (yes, Yeoman).

------
oscargrouch
different languages tend to attract different personalities eg. people from
c/c++ are more conservatives and like to know the internals of everything..

Javascript(PHP?) tend to attract people who wants instant reward, without too
much work..

to point out that a little more is easy to see that even here at HN.. when a
new project come from c/c++/go etc.. the tools are more sophisticated and take
more planning, labor and research to see the light.. so this kind of projects
tend to endure a little bit more

on the other half javascripters launch are more fragmented and you see a lot
of iterations over the same problems already solved by previous framework as
just because its a matter of taste combining the technologies one like most..

i cant say this for every developer of course, im sure there are people away
from this pattern.. but its a just a feeling from the outside.. i come from
other generation i guess.. ut when i was younger pascal, delphy and php were
cool and just get things done.. i think its also a question of age.. when you
are younger you are more pragmatic, and want everything fast and instant..
Javascript is that platform now.. the one who tends to call the younger and
people who are starting programming..

this is not a critic, and not a bad thing at all.. its just more a general
observation.. so excuse-me if i was unfair in anyway (thats the problem with
generalizations though)

Well the problem with pragmatism its just that... people start doing things
with a low critical thinking about the tool they are using.. they tend to
experiment less with other languages and the different solutions those
languages may point out..

so the problem pointed out by miguel de icaza over the callbacks.. they were
spread all around in the code like if they were the solution for everything..
or just _to get things done_

to be fair this is not _just_ a problem of javascript or another language..
its technology in general and the open source..

people should be more cooperative and less competitive.. why create a new blog
engine just because you want to use another template system and do not try to
help the other project by adding the template system you like..

there are much of ego in technology today.. people want to be the new linus
torvalds, or the new steve jobs.. but behind all of those big stars, and what
they acomplished, there A LOT of people working in the same project , all
together.. so its the real spirit of cooperation behind it, even if they dont
tkae the medals.. they deserve it they are also the everyday heros

you can argue that this is may outside of the scope of this post.. but im
trying to point what i think are the real reasons, of why those things are
happening.. and its not enough to look just at technology.. we need to take a
look at the people behind it and how they move..

just my 2 dollars (because this comment its a little big for 2 cents)

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f055
People are spoiled easily. And contrary to common belief, programmers are
people too.

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ultimatedelman
This is incredible, and oh so true

