
KaiOS takes on the Apple-Android mobile duopoly - edward
https://www.economist.com/business/2019/04/27/kaios-takes-on-the-apple-android-mobile-duopoly
======
_bxg1
A non-paywall writeup: [https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/03/27/kaios-may-
succeed-w...](https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/03/27/kaios-may-succeed-
where-android-go-edition-has-failed/)

"It also has received significant investment from Google, and in most cases,
Assistant and other Google applications are preinstalled."

Great; so it's not an indie up-and-comer, so much as Google taking a sideways
approach to capture emerging markets.

~~~
djsumdog
I mean ... I'm of two minds with this. You're not going to get people outside
of the hard core tech/FOSS community to use something else without at least
the most basic stuff we've come to expect (maps, web, contacts).

The hardest one is maps of course. There is HereMaps as a commercial
alternative or using OSM data, but not all of them have the same transit or
nav data.

So long as this phone doesn't require the Google eco-system for over 50% of
the apps to even work, that's something better than Android.

~~~
_bxg1
I'm less concerned about Google Maps than the Google partial-ownership. Based
on the sentiment above, I would assume that it either does or will eventually
"require the Google eco-system for over 50% of the apps to even work". It's
like Android in the early days - at first they just wanted to get a foothold,
so everything was very open. Only once that solidified did they start locking
it down.

~~~
StudentStuff
Google is trying hard to get a foothold on KaiOS, the OEMs that partnered with
Mozilla (and particularly Qualcomm with its Qualcomm 205 chip) need something
like KaiOS that can run well on 256mb of RAM and less than 16GB of flash, as
Android is a pig (even Android One).

I wish Mozilla made an effort to get Mozilla DeepSpeech and Mozilla TTS onto
this platform, as Speech to Text seems to be the first thing Google has gotten
added to KaiOS. Problem is, with these budget devices you don't usually have
the RAM for even a full memory mapped TF Lite model, and end up with a
stripped down language model that is much less accurate :c

Mozilla could run DeepSpeech servers, but it would be a similar commitment to
the Tor Relays they operate...

------
djsumdog
I want to try out/run KDE Plasma Mobile, but so far the only supporter devices
are the Nexus 5 (which you can get new-old stock off eBay for <$100) and
potentially the Purism 5 when it comes out.

Hopefully PostmarketOSs work can bring it to more devices.

Can any of these KaiOS devices be purchases cheaply in the US? I wonder if the
company has added telemetry or other spying related stuff on top of the old
FirefoxOS base. Even if they have, it will be good to have another option if
it becomes more popular.

~~~
tangue
Is Plasma Mobile a real os or an Android shell ? I can't figure out by reading
their website

~~~
O_H_E
It's a "desktop environment" for phones, or rather a phone environment. Most
the work is done to package and deploy it as a UI to traditional Linux
distros.

------
rguiscard
I have a Nokia 8110 phone with KaiOS installed. It works fine as a phone,
lasts 4 days per charging, but keypad input is still a pain. The best use of
such phone would be with AI assistant. For example, you pick up the phone,
press a button and speak, then the screen shows the information or it sends
out a message, etc. In another word, it could be a portable smart speakers
with screen, minimizing keypad input.

~~~
ljf
Assuming it has T9 input? I found an old Nokia 8250 and was shocked by how
quickly I remembered how to type on T9 and how quickly I could type - and
because of the physical nature of the keys I was able to type without looking
at all.

~~~
porsager
I've actually found that it's equally possible to type without looking when
using T9 on an iPhone after i made and now use
[https://typenineapp.com](https://typenineapp.com)

Simply having larger buttons and the phones frame as a reference point seems
to be enough.

------
xj9
i'm glad Mozilla had the foresight to abandon this project right before it
became a profitable enterprise.

~~~
konschubert
KaiOS takes a significantly different approach in bringing FirefoxOS to market
than Mozilla did.

For starters, they targeted feature phones instead of Smartphones

~~~
phh
I've been in commercial contact with FirefoxOS people, and they were
definitely targeting phones that are the same specs as what KaiOS currently
supports. (512MB RAM, 4GB storage, which is half the RAM and half the storage
of Android Go) I don't really know they were calling it smartphones or feature
phones though, that might change things.

~~~
synchronise
FirefoxOS was also exclusively targeting the touchscreen market, which by that
point was already totally saturated. Their partner deals weren't the best
either, and they really launched their product before it was ready which
sullied their image quite a bit.

KaiOS had the benefit of hindsight to see where Mozilla fell over, put in
mitigations, and then shift focus to non-touchscreen devices to lower costs
even further.

A lot of their stack is still open source under the MPLv2, however there are
rumours that Google is 'encouraging' KaiOS to shift their rendering engine
over to Blink. Whether this happens or not remains to be seen.

~~~
fabrice_d
Mozilla started a feature phone project, that was later canceled. One issue at
the time was that the carrier partner was Verizon, and that was a huge gap of
values due to how VZ was fighting against Net Neutrality.

------
aitchnyu
This could be the killer "app" for Svelte, the ultra light web framework. A
Brazilian team had trouble getting a non laggy UI in an underpowered POS
device. Svelte was the only framework fast enough for a snappy UI and still
had best developer experience. There are now 200k of these devices deployed.

[https://shoptalkshow.com/episodes/349/](https://shoptalkshow.com/episodes/349/)

~~~
MarvelousWololo
Why would they use JS for this kind of task is what make me curious. I'd guess
there are better alternatives.

~~~
acct1771
Find one.

~~~
MarvelousWololo
I'm definitely not an expert on embedded development but I'd think C/C++ are
predominant in the area.

~~~
acct1771
Tried to get a community of young/active people to take ownership of the
future of a public project's codebase in either of those two lately? =[

------
writepub
Philosophically, these are mobile versions of chromium OS - where gui is
handled in js/html and kernel is Linux.

2019 is the right year for this attempt, given the advent of:

1\. service workers

2\. Cache API

3\. Web notifications

4\. Web sensor APIs like WebUSB...

5\. WebAuth

6\. WebAssembly

7\. Progressive web app support ..

When Firefox had a go at this in 2012, the web ecosystem didn't have the
listed above features. Mozilla was a little early to this game

------
bitL
Hmm, an alternative but still with all the Google tracking. What's the point?
I'll stick with Sailfish OS or Librem once it's out.

~~~
kccqzy
Well the project is partly funded by Google so all the tracking is a feature.

------
open-source-ux
> _the Apple-Android mobile duopoly_

A bit of a digression, but it would be great if Microsoft were to open source
Windows 8 phone OS. It's probably the best bit of interface design that
Microsoft have ever released given that they have never had a particularly
strong reputation in this area.

Windows 10 phone is a bit of a step back in UX in my view. But version 8 had
mostly the right blend of simplicity and functionality. Plus, it's relatively
lightweight to run on modern smartphone hardware.

What a shame we're stuck with the insipid and uninspiring Android and iOS
duopoly. Pay a premium to lock yourself into one vendor's walled garden. Or
pay less to be tracked to death.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
It wouldn't make sense for them to open source Windows Phone, too much of it
is in common with components of Windows they don't want to open source.
Windows 10 Mobile was a significant upgrade from WP8 in nearly every way, and
it would make zero sense to use 8 over 10.

What's really cool is the work a few people have done getting full Windows on
ARM loaded onto phones.

~~~
iforgotpassword
To me 8 felt way more consistent than 10. I only used it for half a year in
2015, but it was an enlightenment, since suddenly that whole tile stuff that
was so atrocious on the desktop made sense and felt super consistent.
Admittedly I only tried 10 on a friend's phone and never had it as my daily
driver but it just didn't feel as polished.

~~~
canuckintime
"Windows 10 Mobile was a significant upgrade from WP8 in nearly every way"
_EXCEPT_ the UI — unfortunately the interface was the main reason Windows
Phone fans took up the platform.

Riccardo Mori provides my go-to reference for illustrating the difference
between 8 and 10:
[http://morrick.me/archives/8094](http://morrick.me/archives/8094)

WP8 took on Apple-Android with a beautiful interface; its glance-ability is
still unsurpassed. webOS took on Apple-Android with a powerful multitasking
interface; its task fluidity is still unsurpassed. I willing used both until
the phone hardware was abandoned and _still_ prefer them to Apple-Android
today.

KaiOS is a feature-phone OS and does NOT take on the Apple-Android mobile
duopoly.

------
Funes-
I just want a mobile phone with a minimalist design--take Punkt's MP02 or the
Light Phone II--which, in addition, runs mainline Linux. That's it. Giving
mobile phone users the ability to use their devices as they see fit without
violating their privacy and rights, as well as respecting their mental health,
would be a dream come true.

------
VvR-Ox
Another one, yeah!

I hate this: while Apple and Google dominate the whole market and you can't
buy a smart-phone that can be secure and does what you want without
compromising privacy the FOSS community fights against each other.

Instead of focusing on ONE OS that is open and secure and runs on most of
these devices, everyone has to invent their own wheel: postmarketOS, kaiOS,
ubuntu mobile, sailfishOS, lineageOS,.......

Instead of one solution that is good enough to compete with the big ones we
have hundreds of solutions who suck - each in it's own way. That's why there
is still no alternative to Photoshop or Acrobat in 2019 - very sad :-(

~~~
Aaargh20318
> Instead of one solution that is good enough to compete with the big ones
> (...)

The problem is that 'good enough' is not good enough. Why would anyone throw
away their investment in apps and accessories they bought for their current
phones by using a phone with a new OS that has little to no market support, no
apps, no nothing ?

The only way to break open a market like this is by leapfrogging the
competition and offer something so compelling as to offset the initial lack of
support. This is how the iPhone and Android devices managed to break Nokia's
dominant position in the smartphone market.

This is why BB10 failed, they were just catching up to the dominant players,
and even while they had a great implementation it was just more of the same.
The only thing that can threaten the current duopoly is something that offers
a _significantly_ better UX.

~~~
sirkneeland
I'd go so far as to argue you need to find what comes next after the hand-held
smartphone. It could be a smaller, more intimately worn device (think smart
glasses, or a smarter watch, or even something implanted), with more
processing done off-device.

------
zoom6628
Another interesting phone to look at is the Xiaomi Qin 1s which runs a variant
of Android Go (they call it MOCOR5), and is a handset for Rmb395. I played
with one in a Sundan store in Guangzhou last week. Nice keyboard, screen is
good enough, and it has 4G, Wifi, BT - in short faily much everything you
would expect in a Android handset at 2x the price only missing the
touchscreen. Only reason i didnt buy is because it seems not work outside of
China at the moment.

------
barbs
Do these phones run WhatsApp? I feel like that would be extremely important
for KaiOS to have any meaningful success with its target market.

~~~
fabrice_d
Yes they do:
[https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/kaios/26000006/?category=5245235](https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/kaios/26000006/?category=5245235)

~~~
sirkneeland
But this doesn't include the Nokia ones, does it?

~~~
fabrice_d
There is an update being rolled out for the 8110 that brings support.

~~~
sirkneeland
_buys 8110 immediately_

------
rutierut
You supposedly can buy that $7 phone in Indonesia but for me it was impossible
to find one. I think it's more of a marketing move.

------
davidzweig
Do you think there's any chance to get my hands on the common development
board/reference design/SDK that I'm sure most of the KaiOS phones are based
on? (spreadtrum?)

I tried to find one of the $7 USD KaiOS phones when I was in Indonesia a
couple of weeks ago. Seems they aren't actually for sale yet. Tried several
Alfamart stores and a phone mall.

------
paulcarroty
Use kaios v1 device, good for dumbphone.

But if they integrate Google services(tracking+telemetry), I never buy it
again.

------
aqibgatoo
If you change location settings in kai os it still switches on the location by
itself...

------
xrd
Anyone doing any development on this platform? A good experience?

------
mongol
It is good with a programmable device with feature phone form-factor. For
certain applications, old fashioned tactile buttons are better.

------
znpy
I kinda want a JioPhone2. I miss having a qwerty keyboard on my phone.

I wonder if it could run postmarketOS

~~~
synchronise
Someone is working on a LineageOS-like project for KaiOS called GerdaOS, and
there's code for the Jiophone 2 in the branch.

Not sure if it compiles yet for that particular phone but here's the repo if
you're interested: [https://gitlab.com/project-
pris/system](https://gitlab.com/project-pris/system)

------
listic
Who will need a "smart-ish phone"?

------
craftyguy
KaiOS is based on Android..

~~~
_fzslm
It's based on B2G/Firefox OS.

~~~
craftyguy
It may not use the Android userspace, but it relies heavily on the 'android'
kernel and subsystems. From a security and device maintainability standpoint,
those are far more interesting/concerning.

