

Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up? - c52Andy

We're a <i>super</i> early bootstrapped start-up with 2 founders (husband and wife) trying to build a community online marketplace. We're also very new to HN and loving the lost hours of reading.<p>We live on Maui and while we're cash poor we're "location rich" and started thinking we have the perfect 'incubator' to work on the project. Our daughter left for college and we converted her room into a guest room. Our son lives in the 'ohana' (in-law) downstairs where my office is along with kitchenette and bathroom.<p>We work at home and suddenly thought... "aha! what if we offer to move a pair of talented hackers into the ohana to work with us until launching an MVP and/or acquiring seed capital?"
(airfare, room, meals, small per-diem and equity in the company)<p>The question is, does an offer like this seem totally slave-labor lame and offensive, or does it sound like a unique opportunity to work on a project that we plan to take national and then global from a groovy location? We think the latter, but then we live here, so we wake up on Maui every day regardless.<p>Frustrated by a lack of skills (I'm a designer and wife is a writer; we've both 'dabbled' in tech for years), we're just trying to find unique ways to solve our lack-o-hack problem.<p>Aloha for your replies, we're grown-ups so we can take a flame or two :)
======
c52Andy
After posting this last night, I've been positively (literally) overwhelmed by
the feedback both on and off HN. Discretion on some 'harsher' emails
definitely appreciated :)

I wanted to revisit and expand on the original topic. I'd posted literally to
ask the question hypothetically (no ulterior) of whether the scenario sounded
equitable - not to actually try and source talent or 'fish.' That's one reason
I was being vague on description... didn't see the need to go into it.

I now see the error of my ways. This is a community for hackers and while we
are "idea people" on one level (not hackers), we're not just that... we're
also (perhaps) misguided enthusiastic idiots who've also grown a couple
profitable businesses along the way... "lifehackers" if you will (problem:
earn money, feed family. solution: whatever it takes).

Since there's been a recurring "what's it about" thread I'll expand on this.
Firstly, we have someone on board to start protoyping based on my designs; he
plans to do so in Rails using an existing framework he's built. He's not in
our basement. We're planning to pay him for that service, and are working with
him on another job (not the start-up). In other words the post wasn't a
'hacker wanted' plea, but more of a "would it seem out of line" as we consider
the prospects of how we could move from payment toward a push (on limited
cash) to get something released in exchange for some kind of equity. A
potential perk to building a team on limited resources.

One reason we need to consider it is that this guy, like every talented hacker
on this board, has other irons in the fire and a career of his own to manage.
So start-up may not be his bag, baby.

Who's bag might it be? Tough to say, but a lot of the feedback has been 'get
personal already'. So, my name is Andy Johnson, and my wife is Michelle Blaine
and we have a start-up company called Chef 52, Inc. Here's a bit about it from
the late YC application we submitted if you're interested. It ought to give
you the basic overview of the business, name our _potential_ partners
(disclaimer: nothing signed in blood yet) and give you a view of both our
living room, and 'us' as people.

[http://chef52.posterous.com/chef-52-described-for-
ycombinato...](http://chef52.posterous.com/chef-52-described-for-ycombinator)

Don't let the bad hair and casual dress fool you. We bring a lot more to the
table than an idea. We have 8 kids (yes, 8) that are alive, healthy and
prospering in this world. Food was a critical component to that equation, and
we're both passionate 'foodies'. Michelle is a stellar cook and has spent
years working in the food industry; initially to support her habit spending
years working in the film/TV industry - which she did so very successfully.
She's also worked in music licensing and managed to build real value and
equity for clients. She's a shrewd business woman, and a loving mother (more
of the latter seen on video).

I was a touring musician 'in a past life' and have been passionate about food
and cooking since I was a teenager. First because my Dad was an excellent cook
so I grew up thinking a man's place WAS in the kitchen. Then in my early 20s
as a necessity because my health went down the tubes... rock'n'roll lifestyle
perhaps or luck of the draw. But either way, I used food and nutrition as the
singular means to regain my health and well-being. Successfully! It was a
total trip and changed my lifestyle forever. As a result I've been a
vege/pescetarian coming up on about 19 years now.

About 11 years ago, having taught myself several 'creative' software apps and
blagged my way into some print-production gigs, I took a job at one of the
largest branding agencies in the world, Landor Associates. I spent 4 years
forming the foundation to become an expert in digital production as it
pertains to brand... This mostly meant font management and consultation,
building logo suites for global brands based on initial designs, extending
design into brand guidelines and stationery/presentation 'packages' including
print mechanicals and digital equivalents (Word/PPT templates), creating
interactive PDFs, and very rarely getting to do a little hand coding on HTML
'comps' for clients.

Since leaving Landor I've managed a freelance career as a designer/producer,
continued to tour as a musician, wrote a few short film scores, had another
baby, moved our family back to Maui (we've been in/out of the islands all our
lives), skirted death in a motorcycle accident (and 'mostly' walked away), and
hacked together a number of websites with Michelle as a passionate pursuit -
sometimes for money... maybe even more than we should've been paid (see
"shrewd business woman").

Since leaving film/TV and music licensing, Michelle has continued to raise our
family, helped me grow my freelance business into what has become Johnson
Beesley (we're a branding agency compiled of free-agents working
cooperatively), built a mom-blog following and become a writer for food-buzz
(which incidentally came on the heels of her deciding to write about food
exclusively). She's also developed a modest following on twitter (@mControl);
far more than I have (@johnsonbeesley).

We're friendly, astute, and staunchly creative people. We follow our hearts
wherever they take us and let our brains catch up. We love people that
surprise us with their kindness and intelligence and often loathe people that
fail to surprise us by reaffirming our occasional desire to join what Bill
Hicks coined as the "people who hate people club."

Our project, Chef 52, aims to be a culmination of our collective life
experience. It represents something we know a lot about - people, friends,
family, food, health and self employment.

The latter two are critical to our vision. We believe there's a behavioral
change opportunity in this idea that would help people get 'out of the drive
thru and back to the table.' We've watched childhood and adult obesity,
diabetes, heart disease and all sorts of other nutritional fails claim
people's lives. Some who were loved ones. So, we now have an idea that if
effectively produced could put a dent in our declining eating habits as a
culture (yes, we're doing market research on that too). The self-employment
part is obvious. We've been 'without boss' and also location-independent as a
result for close to 8 years now. We appreciate the freedom while never
forgetting that we've actually been at that "oh crap we've got $7 to our name"
point - with kids to feed, clothe and house. But we choose that lifestyle
because we believe it's the best path in this single life we have.

<segue> "Single life we have" - we're not religious people, but to call us
'spiritually motivated' would be fair. Not 'crunchy' but a bit hard around the
edges. You could call me an enthusiastic aethiest and I'd say that's pretty
close to accurate. </segue>

So, that's us in a nutshell, and I felt like it was fair to post this given
the personal feedback and time people have taken to express an interest in
what started as hypothesis.

Now for some hacker comedy entertainment... Here's a collection of sites that
Michelle and I have designed and/or built over the past several years... no
'web applications' but you'll get a sense of both our strengths and
shortcomings in this domain. We're not clueless - but certainly not as
thorough or knowledgeable as the people we'd like to help us execute the
platform to deliver our vision and business:

www.johnsonbeesley.com (WP, not updated in ages) www.halblaine.com (WP with
Thesis) www.mommysalad.com (WP with Thesis) www.everkaeo.com (WP with Thesis)
www.laurapickering.com (flash, so no iPad ;) www.9fishsurf.com (flash)

We cobbled together a few sites in Joomla for a while around 2007 - but I
think they've all gone the way of expired domains. It's safe to say they were
crap (more so than what you may think of the above) but were a learning
adventure nonetheless.

Thanks for reading, and if any of this makes you think "damn, I might want to
work with these people" you can drop a line at ajohnson at johnsonbeesley and
mblaine at johnsonbeesley.

Aloha~

------
pnathan
Personally, I would feel weird living in the same house with my boss. I would
also want to have a real legal eagle go over the equity agreements, because
I'm a paranoid git about stuff. =)

However, it doesn't seem like slave labor. It does seem like a situation which
could turn sour from interpersonal relations. I would advise care in selecting
hackers, ideally meeting them in person first.

~~~
c52Andy
Good point! We're early AirBnB adopters so we've had our fair share of awkward
experiences - and you're right, the 'fermentation factor' is potentially high;
but at least space is somewhat separated (downstairs/upstairs). Skype can be
decent, but one never knows. Same feeling re. legal eagle - we're crucial on
bullet-proof arrangements prior to any execution.

~~~
itmag
What are your house rules regarding bringing over friends, playing guitar,
staying up late, fapping, etc? :)

------
djb_hackernews
Heres my take. No way.

Well, 23 year old me says sweet, older me says no way. But at 23 I wasn't near
equipped to build a product from scratch.

What you really need is a CTO that gets founder equity. But you already have a
CTO and it sounds like they don't bring much to the table besides you being
comfortable with them. Which is important no doubt about it.

So you've got all the founders you need, but still don't have a means to build
the product. Building a product from the ground up for non-founder equity and
room and board is ridiculous. If you are competing for people with the skills
to build a product from zero to MVP and beyond on a global scale, you must
realize these same people have the opportunity to do the same thing somewhere
else but for an equity share matching their contribution.

I see you have a few options:

* Pay your hackers market salary minus local COL. (2 month contract I'm guessing would be about 20k per head)

* Outsource the job (Guessing somewhere around 50k)

* Replace your CTO with someone who can commit and build the product. (Free)

* Roll the dice with some go getter looking for an adventure.

~~~
c52Andy
Super informative, and noted on the 23 yo "me," djb. I've had similar
experiences in music (touring the country in a van post-25 years old starts to
look pretty aggravating).

I'm about to supplement this thread because I feel the information shared has
gone beyond the scenario question (which wasn't meant to carry any ulterior
motive but simply help us ascertain what value that might hold in trying to
hire a team).

That said, because of some of the talent that has responded with a 'I want to
know more' proposition, I want to address that as a blanket comment.

-Aloha

------
shuzchen
To answer your question, while it's not an offer I'd likely take up, I don't
think it's slave-labor lame or offensive, so long as you make things clear as
to the exact terms of the arrangement. Nobody is forcing anything to do
anything, so IMO the only time you'd be in the wrong was if you misled
anybody.

However, I'd like to encourage you to "shop local". While it doesn't appear to
be the case, there are a lot of talented devs available locally. I'm part of a
fledgling makerspace on O'ahu, and in the past few months I've met a ton of
developers that came out of the woodwork. Did you know we had a startup
weekend here? Our makerspace also had two teams participate in node knockout.

I can't speak for Maui, but I'm sure the situation is the same (and you guys
have a more mature makerspace, why not join up and start networking?).

If you need any help networking (I can get you in touch with
alohastartups.com), or are open to an alternate proposal, feel free to contact
me (contact@freelancedreams.com)

~~~
c52Andy
Mahalo Shuzchen, the CTO I mentioned in another reply (a Rails guy) is on
O'ahu. We've been working with him to try and find local hackers to work with;
no cash is the prevailing 'fail' but we'd love to hook up with locals - I grew
up on Kauai and our daughter (who's empty room is mentioned) was born on Maui.
Was telling a SCORE guy here (also on TechHui) that we'd love nothing more to
keep it local and stay brick and mortar here too. Any help appreciated; I'll
email now.

------
apsurd
Most people including myself care most about _what_ it is we are building and
why. Working on meaningful and/or technically or socially interesting problems
will go a long way for most here I think.

I personally despise freelance work. Yet I spend countless hours working on my
own projects which don't net me a dime.

So with that in mind, what do you want to build?

~~~
c52Andy
Thanks Jade. "Yes I spend countless hours..." Exactly how we got here! Just
emailed you at gmail.

------
geoffschmidt
It is not offensive, as long as you offer meaningful amounts of equity (it
sounds like you are at the idea stage and are basically looking for
cofounders, and you should probably offer cofounder-size stakes and use the
same care you would take in selecting a cofounder.)

Good people have an enormous number of opportunities right now. The risk you
run is that you'll attract only people that aren't very good, and not realize
it, since it doesn't sound like you have a strong enough tech background to
put them through a solid tech interview. So my advice is to find a friend of a
friend who has been through the full cycle of hiring engineers and shipping a
successful project, and have them vet your choices.

~~~
c52Andy
Thanks Geoff, solid advice.

Forgot to mention in post that we have an acting CTO/senior advisor that has
held that role at several other companies (and currently employed as such)
that would help us identify/vet the pair. He's interested but unwilling/unable
to leave his job and he already lives in Hawaii! ;) But, he's going to
basically 'donate' an hour a day to review code and help shape strategy, and
is interested in coming on board for salary/equity if we can find seed.

We're still struggling with what constitutes fair equity. Obviously x% of 0 is
still null. So on the one hand giving over founders share is attractive; on
the flipside, we're trying to offer some cash/benefits up front to hackers
while bootstrapping; wouldn't founder equity also include founder 'stakes' (no
pay, doing it for the love/risk, etc.)?

~~~
stdbrouw
"But, he's going to basically 'donate' an hour a day to review code and help
shape strategy, and is interested in coming on board for salary/equity if we
can find seed."

My beef here is that the people who do the least amount of work or, in the
case of you and your wife, have the least amount of tech-related skills, would
be running the show. If I'm working all day on _your_ startup, the last thing
I want is to have that day end with a CTO looking over my shoulders and
criticizing my code, especially when that CTO obviously lacks the same amount
of commitment that I have. It'd be even more grating if that CTO would then
come on full time and essentially jump over me and my colleagues who have done
all the work, both in salary and title.

Also, you'd have to be able to prove that you are actually an interesting
founder to work with and have skills (if not coding, something else) that will
be an asset for the company in the long run. Nobody wants an "idea man" as
his/her boss.

Lastly, if you work 12 hours a day, whether you do so in Hawaii or in Siberia
doesn't really matter all that much. If you only expect your coders to work
for 4-5 hours a day, now that's something else.

Coding-for-space isn't offensive, it just isn't all that appealing.

~~~
c52Andy
This feedback is exactly why I posted - and thanks for the scenario. We def
bring a lot more to the table than ideas (UI design, proven branding and
marketing knowledge/experience; enough skills to jump in wherever needed and
whenever needed - "Hey, write me some CSS for that page while I tweak xyz..."
"OK, done.") - and the site is admittedly more of a marketing play then a tech
play (words of another hacker that's reviewed materials to date). That said,
super valid points re. someone 'hopscotching' and well spotted on 12hour days
in Siberia. That said, I work about 16 on average and still enjoy the view
(and weather) a lot more in those down hours - so surely environment carries
some equity. No mai tais in Russia... good Vodka though!

~~~
stdbrouw
"the site is admittedly more of a marketing play then a tech play" — that
could actually be an advantage if it means you chiefly need coders for a
couple of months to get things started, rather than a multi-year commitment.
Makes it look more like a vacation.

~~~
c52Andy
"Makes it look more like a vacation." True assuming an MVP in exchange for a
short vacation sounds fair; and effectively that was our thought - spend the
time to get it launched here, then go home.

BUT, equity in exchange would be restricted stock options with vesting clauses
- so longer commitment required beyond an MVP. If we had e.g., 1/2+ the cash
to pay a team for 6 weeks full-time that _might_ be fair w/no equity and a
'paid vacation' on reduced salary; but I personally wouldn't go for that...
not without an extra month of no-work live-in included anyway!

------
md1515
Actually I think this is a fabulous idea. Obviously hackers would need to
believe in what you two are doing, but I am under the impression many hackers
just like some freedom. They like to live in exotic and beautiful places
(ahem..Maui), they are comfortable with living expenses paid (ahem..airfare,
room, food) and a bit of cash for the rainy day fund.

There are a lot of freelance hackers and a lot of people who would jump at the
idea. Naturally, it depends what your idea is and how big the pay and equity
are, but this is cool and creative.

I have been to Hawaii and if I new how to properly program I'd be on board!
Good luck

~~~
c52Andy
Thanks for the validation 'doc' :) We're hoping to find that right pair.

------
abbasmehdi
Have you tried to learn basic web development? If you have time, invest a few
weeks either way. I don't think you're being unfair if you're offering free
housing, fair equity and free food. It is more than what most cofounders offer
one another. However you have to find people who are passionate enough about
your idea to make it their own and have a good working relationship with.

~~~
c52Andy
totally agreed abbasmehdi "find people who are..." and thanks for the comment.

regarding basic web development: we've built several sites over the last 10
years, but have never learned to hack in a language (e.g. RoR); just bits of
code as needed and lots of 'wysiwyg' manipulation.

we're basically trying to build a web application and think given our current
jobs and lives it would take us a year or longer (much, much longer!) to
acquire that sort of skill set, so we think best handled by experts (or
experts in training).

------
wpietri
Depending on the details of the offer, it's reasonable.

Please make sure there are clear written agreements drawn up by a startup-
experienced lawyer before any work starts. The right lawyer will be able to
help you figure out correct amounts of equity and proper vesting for this
unusual situation.

~~~
c52Andy
Thanks wpietri, and excellent advice. Have some beginning docs and trying to
schedule meeting with a couple Hawaiian start-up lawyers

------
itmag
_The question is, does an offer like this seem totally slave-labor lame and
offensive, or does it sound like a unique opportunity to work on a project
that we plan to take national and then global from a groovy location?_

Heh, I am already an underpaid slave. And in perennially-grimdark Sweden to
boot. I get no vitamin D outside of pills and the main high point of the week
is paying out your ass for overpriced alcoholic painkillers on Saturday night.

Maybe to overpaid snotty Americans your offer sounds bad, to me it sound
totally bad ass :)

------
JamesPeterson
This sounds great to me! That said, I'm a 20yo finance undergrad who merely
dabbles - like yourself - in tech and web technologies and probably am not a
useful _hacker_ per se (at least as far as programming goes!).

Your offer appeals to me as a great opportunity, but I'm obviously not who
you're after.

------
ameen
Sounds interesting, but what is it that you're looking to build. I'd be
interested if and only if I knew what I would be doing. People need to believe
in what you're looking to build, and that would directly influence their
choice. Visions need to be aligned to build a company.

Good luck though!

------
joelrunyon
You would be very interested in the TropicalMBA.com || They've done something
fairly similar with several talented people. Not necessarily developers per
se, but they've had some really interesting success stories come out of it. I
think they're on their 9th intern in about 2 years. Good stuff.

------
jcr
Though it may or may not be intentional, it would probably help a lot if you
updated you HN profile to include your email address (the email address used
to sign up is never shown). I'm not sure I can really help, but if you want,
contact me through email (address in my profile).

------
teyc
Building a marketplace is _hard_. You'd want to prove that you are capable of
being scrappy and still build a community. Once you've got that, then you will
have a better pick of developers because at least you have some proof of
traction.

~~~
c52Andy
Thanks teyc. By scrappy do you mean it could be cobbled but the idea/marketing
would trump poorly executed code?

~~~
teyc
For a marketplace, you have an advantage doing it this way. Initially, there
wouldn't be a lot of users. So badly performing code wouldn't necessarily
matter so much. If you happen to have a Twitter style growth, FailWhale is a
good kind of problem to have.

Look for some of the PHP marketplace scripts. Actually, Dating is a typical
marketplace (for people). If you have design skills, you can replace the
graphics and text and you should have a semblance of a starter site rather
quickly.

Whatever you do, only offer equity on the basis of people delivering working
code. Otherwise, you'd have a ton of free lodgers.

~~~
c52Andy
super helpful teyc, and duly noted. thanks again! =)

------
jrubinovitz
I know I personally would consider that, but it really depends on the project
and it relies on the fact that I do not have a family to support. Definitely
feel free to email me.

------
itmag
You would fly someone in from Sweden and pay for their room & board + equity?

Doesn't sound so bad to me. I might know a few people interested in this.
Contact me :)

------
keeptrying
I am very interested. I've always wanted to live in Maui. Send me an email.
Contact info in my profile.

~~~
c52Andy
email sent.

------
joelrunyon
Also, I'd be interested in hearing what you guys are up to fwiw.

------
stevenj
Do you have an email address that we can contact you through?

~~~
c52Andy
sure - ajohnson at johnsonbeesley dot com

------
ameen
Sounds interesting. Drop me a mail. Good Luck!

