
Apple is evaluating new keyboard mechanisms to make thinner MacBooks - protomyth
https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/09/24/apple-is-evaluating-new-keyboard-mechanisms-to-make-thinner-macbooks
======
Mistri
I'm honestly the biggest Apple fanboy — I have all the newest gadgets and I
use literally every one of their products, and have been for the past several
years. However, this is one thing that upsets me. The MacBook doesn't need
less ports, it doesn't need to be thinner.

I understand the thinning of the MacBook Pro from the 2012 model to the 2015
model (which is what I currently own, and in my opinion is the best Mac). But
I definitely don't think it needed to get any thinner or lighter than that,
especially if it's sacrificing ports or a good keyboard.

IMO the 2015 MacBook Pro is the best Mac out there, mainly because of its
beautiful retina display, perfect weight, and most importantly, a good
keyboard.

~~~
_hardwaregeek
While I understand the reticence towards thinness, I'm going to withhold
judgment until I'm holding the new laptop. Thinness isn't just about aesthetic
(although that is an aspect that HN commenters severely underestimate). It's
also about the act of physically using the device.

I know that going from a 2015 Macbook Pro to a 2017 one made a gigantic
difference in how I used the device. The 2015 one I had to decide if I wanted
to put in my backpack. It added a non significant weight to my bag and
therefore my back. I wouldn't open it while standing or outside, simply
because it wasn't comfortable to hold in one hand, or to type in a password.

The 2017 Macbook Pro, while flawed in many ways, is very different. I carry it
everywhere without a thought. I can easily carry it open in one hand or closed
like a book. I can pop it open for a second, type some stuff in while holding
it, then put it back (TouchID is great for this too).

This may sound like Ive-esque purple prose, but truly, a lighter laptop lowers
the barriers between the physical object and what I want to accomplish. I
don't have to think about the physical weight of the laptop. I can just bring
it. I don't have to think about putting the laptop down and using it. I can
just palm it.

~~~
seunosewa
You've made a great argument for a _lighter_ laptop. Your 2017 laptop is a
whopping _36% thinner_ than your 2015 laptop but only _11% lighter_.

This modest difference in weight is mostly due to the reduced battery size
that a more efficient chipset allows the newer laptop to have. The total
weight of the 0.8mm thin ribbons of plastic and aluminium shaved off the
plastic keys and edge of the aluminium case (the difference in key travel), is
negligible compared to the weight of the laptop.

Apple could have made a laptop that was within 1% of the weight of your 2017
laptop, had a normal keyboard with good travel, and was just about 0.8mm
thicker.

~~~
_hardwaregeek
There’s the problem of feeling cheap however. If you make a laptop that’s
thicker but lighter, you run the risk of having a laptop that feels weirdly
light and cheap.

Also thickness does matter! If you’re gripping a laptop in one hand, a thinner
body is easier to hold. And it’s just plain beautiful. It feels futuristic.
Which, yes, is nonsense. But it’s also how you make a product that people
want.

~~~
jtcruthers
Has the product not been thin enough to easily hold one handed for years?
We're talking about shaving millimeters off a 1.5 cm thick product. Not inches
off something a foot thick

~~~
Izkata
There's a difference between thin/light and holdability. My prior Asus[0]
actually had a part sticking out the back (where the battery was attached)
that provided an amazing grip. Flat macbooks, like my current Asus, I'm more
afraid will slip out of my grip (or, held from the side, flex and damage
something), especially pushing against it with the other hand while using the
keyboard.

[0] [https://www.asus.com/Laptops/U46E/](https://www.asus.com/Laptops/U46E/)

------
heelix
I really wish they would move focus back to being more expandable. The way
they weld stuff to the mainboard is hot trash. There is no upgrade path for
these newer macs. My old 17"? That got a 16G RAM/SSD upgrade with the CD
swapped out for a second drive. Added years to its life. I suspect the new 16"
version will only have four USB-C port.

I got lucky and ended up with a 32G work laptop. I've got enough headroom to
run a couple docker containers at the same time. My co-workers stuck with the
16G laptops are really in a tough place. As things stand, I end up stuffing a
pile of dongles into my bag as I transition from work to home and back again.

It is unfortunate the person who keeps demanding 'thinner' over 'professional'
keeps getting listened to. Wish I could find a 16:10 laptop that had
expandability.

~~~
chaostheory
No need to beg Apple for expandability anymore on their laptops or desktops.
Windows has gotten good enough especially with WSL2. Developers have more
options now. I just got tired of waiting for Apple, and gave up when a Mac Pro
starts at 6k. People want a headless, expandable iMac that’s affordable, kind
of like the old cheese grater Mac Pros. Apple isn’t budging.

~~~
emit_time
“Windows has gotten good enough”

As someone who took a job using Windows after 4.5 years away from it, I
completely disagree.

I hate windows with a passion, and it’s part of the reason I’m looking for a
new job.

I’m not saying it’s not good enough for some, a lot of things in it still
suck.

~~~
fsloth
Windows needs a bunch of utility programs that nobody tells you which they
are. After those are installed things are much more smooth.

Directory management: 'Directory Opus'

Fast search: 'Everything' and 'Agent Ransack'

Powershell is actually pretty neat once you get past the odd syntax.

But yeah, you can't turn it into a native unix env.

~~~
alexis_fr
10 years on Mac and I’m still missing the Windows Explorer. One feature only:
The directory tree in the left handside.

~~~
johnchristopher
No worries, MS is actively trying to get rid of it (by hiding some folders, by
mangling some shortcuts, by putting libraries and stupid things like that
first so that you rarely actually have access to the tree).

------
naikrovek
Are people really demanding thinner laptops? Who is demanding that a laptop or
phone be thinner?

MAKE THEM THICKER, I want more battery life and better performance! I am a fat
out of shape need and I can carry 40lbs on my back, no sweat. MAKE THEM
THICKER.

~~~
jseliger
_Are people really demanding thinner laptops? Who is demanding that a laptop
or phone be thinner?_

Yes. Anyone who carries them around demands thinner, where possible. I could
have bought a MBP and am typing this on a MBA. The latter has various
advantages but the latter is fast enough and also lighter. PG uses (used?) 11"
MBAs.
[https://twitter.com/paulg/status/740739637572997120?lang=en](https://twitter.com/paulg/status/740739637572997120?lang=en)

~~~
garmaine
I carry my laptop everywhere, and whenever there is a trade-off I demand
performance and quality over thin/light.

I use my machine to do work. Better performance makes we work better and
faster. It's my bread and butter. Less weight... is a slight convenience while
commuting, I guess?

~~~
pertymcpert
When you travel, especially internationally where you're probably carrying the
laptop in a hand bag then the extra weight starts to be an annoyance. A lot of
walking around and 0.5kg savings makes a difference.

~~~
garmaine
I do a LOT of traveling, as I’m a consultant. I fly 2-3 times a month, often
internationally. Seriously it is not a concern for me.

~~~
pertymcpert
Good for you. You are not everyone. Some people have sore shoulders.

------
chasing
Dear Sweet Baby Jesus I want a thicker MacBook Pro that WORKS. I literally do
not care about millimeter or two. I care very seriously about a quality
keyboard I can type on.

My 2016 MBP is the worst Mac I’ve owned, and my first Mac was bought in 1989.
And I don’t feel like I can upgrade because I’m unwilling to pay for more of
the same crappy design. It’s embarrassing.

------
L0stLink
Linux has gotten to the point that it is no longer necessary to look at MacOS
for a stable Unix environment. I don't need much from a laptop just decent
keyboard, performance, battery life and for it to not thermal throttle, but
unfortunately this seems to be incompatible with Apple's vision of the perfect
MacBook. If this is the direction Apple is taking I cannot see myself buying a
MacBook in the foreseeable future.

~~~
tempsolution
Sorry, but Linux hasn't gotten anywhere in a long while. They were trying
something that may have worked (Ubuntu + Unity), but this just looks and feels
like a toy still. When it comes to GUI and user experience, let's face it,
there is a very very TINY market left for Linux. I am a software developer for
a very long time and had been running QubesOS as well as most popular distros.
Of those QubesOS is the clear winner, since it looks pretty much as sad as any
other Linux but at least it gives you something you can't get anywhere else:
Security.

As much as I hate Windows and MacOS, they just both run circles around Linux
when it comes to graphics, GUI design and user experience and that is why they
have such a big market share. It's this old delusion of some Linux fanboys
that Linux would spread around the globe if the evil Apple and Microsoft would
just allow them. There are few people who CAN use it and much fewer still that
are willing to use it as a desktop system.

~~~
Paperweight
Agreed. I recently gave every Linux DE an honest test drive and... it's clear
that nobody really has the resources to perfect them. They all get annoying
after a while. I'd be happy with something as polished as Windows 95, but even
XFCE has the exact same bugs as when I used it 15 years ago.

~~~
Eiriksmal
Not to be _that guy_ , but what bugs have you experienced in XFCE? I've been
using XFCE since Fedora 14. With the recent upgrade to Fedora 30 (from 28), I
noticed they addressed my only beef with the environment by adding a greatly-
improved GUI for managing multiple displays. It can save profiles for work vs
home displays and (almost always) toggles between them correctly.

That was the only Linux pain point for me, having to manually toggle out of
multi-screen mode after unplugging an HDMI cable. Obviously, that was some
kind of kernel thing and not an XFCE-specific bug (I think?), but even the
native XFCE tooling has improved in the last few years, despite the lack of a
newsworthy major version release.

Fedora has been my daily driver for 8 years now. It keeps getting better. The
last flaky distribution, for me, was Fedora 19, released in the summer of
2013! (Here, flaky is described as "difficult to get working the way I wanted"
and "occasionally would do something weird and force me to reboot it to fix
the problem")

~~~
rhinoceraptor
I don't even think it's bugs that Linux desktops have a problem with. The
Linux desktop is really only good if you are a hacker and don't give any
thought to tasteful design or coherent usability.

~~~
wayneftw
> The Linux desktop is really only good if you are a hacker and don't give any
> thought to tasteful design or coherent usability.

That's funny because it's exactly the way I feel about macOS where they
obviously design things based on the way things look and sell over how usable
they are. This is actually part of Apple's DNA as we've read in the past: The
only reason they stuck with the Dock was because of how well it marketed. You
can read about it from the guy who developed Apple's first HIG -
[https://www.asktog.com/columns/044top10docksucks.html](https://www.asktog.com/columns/044top10docksucks.html)

Meanwhile my preferred Linux DE (XFCE) gives me perfectly tasteful design and
coherent usability. Instead of having things look or work the way Apple wants,
I am able to do things the way I want to, which means that things fit into my
opinion of what is tasteful or usable. It's a ton of little things you know?
Like being able to quit an app with a single gesture (a middle click on its
pane icon, similar to how you close a tab in your browser) - built into XFCE
and not even available in macOS unless you're Apple and you have some access
to their private API.

That's because most Linux desktop environments take after Windows, which has
by far a better system of usability than macOS. To point out just one small
thing: In macOS the keyboard shortcuts are an insane jumble of incoherence
with no pattern which is why you simply cannot navigate the entirety of macOS
with just the keyboard, something that I can do all day long on Windows and
Linux.

If you think you can, I'll challenge you: Open the About this mac dialog, then
switch to another program. Now try to switch back to that window with just
your keyboard, without using one of your special usability-fixing programs
that you have to install to fix such things on your Mac, like Witch.

------
adrr
Does anyone want a thinner computer? The I9s have thermal issues, the
butterfly keyboard break in 12 months. Why don’t they focus on real innovation
like adding faceId or Oled HDR screens. Apple is going to spite us all and
replace the keyboard with an oled magic bar.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
I mean, if I could have a magical fairy computer that was as thin as a piece
of paper but had the keyboard of a 2015 MBP, and decent performance and
battery life, yeah, I'd think that was pretty great.

What I'm _not_ willing to do is make any drastic usability sacrifices in
exchange for more thinness.

~~~
liability
That fairy would need to use some seriously arcane magic to make such a device
not bend and tear like paper too. Although I don't think that would bother
Apple much at this point.

------
kinkrtyavimoodh
This fetish for thinness is how we end up with 2100 dollar laptops whose
keyboards start acting up in 2 months of purchase, and simply can't be cleaned
or easily replaced because the whole thing is frigging glued shut with barely
any clearance.

There is a lot of mythos about Steve Jobs but I feel confident in saying that
the hot garbage that is post-2015 Macbook 'Pros' would not have shipped (or at
least been promptly brought back to the drawing board) in his realm.

------
gnicholas
Note that the patent's Publication Date is listed as November 17, 2016. So we
shouldn't read into this that Apple _still thinks_ that they should keep going
thinner and thinner. Hopefully they have heard loud and clear that people want
a keyboard that has adequate travel, and this tech will therefore never see
the light of day.

For the record, I have a 2017 MBP and agree with all the anti-butterfly
sentiment voiced here.

------
szggzs27
Steve was mocking xerox for being run by people who have no idea how to
develop a product. Jobs would mention that those people can only do marketing
and sales and would drive the design to the point of uselessness.

Wish he would be still alive, none of this self destructive bullshit would
have continued. The touchbar would have been binned and the butterfly keyboard
slapped on the wall of shame with the title

"think before you build"

~~~
romanovcode
The touchbar is the reason I switched to Linux using XPS.

~~~
asenna
I really wish I could switch back to Linux but not being able to use Adobe
tools is what's stopping me. I am now considering dual boot of Linux + Windows
for only when Adobe is needed (which is not an ideal Solution).

Just want to see how bad they screw up with the next MacBook before I make the
switch. Currently running a 2015 MBP.

~~~
swiley
Do the adobe tools really not run in wine?

I haven't had a good reason to use it lately but modern wine (not the one in
the debian repos) is pretty good once you have the 32 bit GNU userspace
installed for it.

~~~
asenna
Is it? Honestly, I've played around with wine a long time back and realized I
can't use it for serious stuff and still sorta carried that thinking. Might
have to give it a try again.

~~~
swiley
The last time I used it to run labview. I don't remember having any problems
with it.

Do note that wine is about implementing the win32/win64 runtime. WPF and other
.net stuff don't really work well.

------
Anarch157a
I don't understand Apple's obsession with thin devices. What's the point in
making something so thin that it detracts from their primary function ? Ipad
Pros that bend, Macs with problematic keyboards and overheating...

Please, stop. Make things functional first, thin if possible, not the other
way around.

~~~
brookside
Credit due, newer generations of iPhones have been successively thicker with
increased battery capacity.

------
chipotle_coyote
So far only one other comment seems to have pointed out that this is a patent
filing -- from 2016, no less -- not a commitment. Apple has filed many, many
patents over the years that haven't gone anywhere. Meanwhile, there's been
several rumors from the supply chain that the next keyboard design from Apple
that's actually _going into production_ goes back to scissor switches.

I think it might be worth waiting to see what the next new keyboard design --
which may not be the next _laptop_ that they ship, depending on how far their
infamously long pipeline stretches -- actually is before bringing out the tar
and feathers.

------
Wowfunhappy
No. FFS stop it.

I am a huge fan of thin and small laptops, even at the expense of things like
connectivity. However, 90% of what I do with a laptop is type. If there's no
key travel, I can't type.

~~~
chapium
I switched to a budget lenovo ideapad because i needed a windows machine. It
turns out its way more comfortable to use than my mac and i keep coming back
to it.

~~~
fyfy18
Just bear in mind the build quality of Ideapad and other budget Lenovo brands
aren't great. The ThinkPad (X, T or P series) really is in a class of its own
in terms of build quality, upgradability and repairability.

~~~
chapium
Do you know the common failure mode for ideapads? Two aspects of the design
concerned me. The heat vents on the back are open when the lid is closed
(presumably for ventilation while docked), and the power plug is barrel style,
which i know handles stress poorly and can break the socket over time. It is
cheap, probably for a reason. Performance in the short term is up to par.

------
magashna
How thin does it have to get before everyone says "this feels shitty"? I have
a few mechanical keyboards at home and at work and I can't imagine always
having to use one of these new keyboards with zero throw. It makes me feel
like I'm mimicking typing rather than actually doing it.

~~~
CoolGuySteve
I would not be surprised if Apple releases a solid state keyboard with
chiseled glass keys, haptic feedback for key presses, and an oled screen
underneath.

It seems like the conclusion to their “Taptic” engine, touchbar, and pressure
sensitive touchscreens R&D.

~~~
bsder
Even if it felt like garbage, that would at least be reliable ...

------
mths
MacBook Pro 2025: The entire keyboard/touchpad area is now a screen with
configurable controls. The touchbar was a tease of what's to come. People
rejoice over the ability to swipe rather than type out a word.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Hmm. Sounds like an iPad then. So is the plan really:

Macbook Pro 2020, newest even thinner than butterfly keyboard.

iPad Pro keyboard cover now the most travel, best typing keyboard among Apple
portables.

2022: iPad OS on iPad Pro now the professional portable, MBP discontinued.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
If Apple truly wanted to kill the Macbook line, they wouldn't do it by
spending millions of dollars over several years purposefully producing crappy
products they don't believe in. They'd just announce they were killing the
Macbook line.

That hasn't happened, so presumably, Apples believe that laptops fill a niche
which tablets don't.

Well, what is that niche? The primary difference between a tablet and laptop
is that the latter has a keyboard. If you're buying a laptop instead of a
tablet, you probably want a good keyboard!

------
philliphaydon
Apple making thin laptops was great, it moved us away from these giant thick
things we had for so long. But this obsession with thinness is crazy now. They
are chasing tooo thin.

I used to love my old Macbook Pro Retina, great keyboard, great laptop.

I'm on Lenovo's team now, it's keyboard is superior in everyway. I do miss the
trackpad but I use the keyboard 99% of the time, and I like the nipple.

------
kimi
Not sure I'm the only one, but I'm at a conference with my 2019 MBP and when I
see someone with an old MBP I think "that must be a new model.... I definitely
could use all those ports and that nice keyboard". Then I remember it was tthe
one I replaced with this definitely inferior machine (repeated letters left
unedited)

~~~
d-d
I feel your pain. The literal, actual pain of typing on a post-2015 MBP
keyboard.

------
snth
I'm dying to switch to a good Linux laptop. Any suggestions for one that could
replace my MacBook pro?

Every previous time I've done this, I've been disappointed with something
basic: wifi, battery management, video card support, using external
projectors. Have these issues been worked out?

~~~
tpfour
Just get a Thinkpad and (mostly) stop worrying.

I bought a Macbook Pro in 2009 and used it until 2017 when I switched to a
T470. Haven't regretted it one second. Debian works flawlessly, as does
OpenBSD.

~~~
devmunchies
I was considering getting a Thinkpad and running Debian or Manjaro to replace
my MBP. I know historically thinkpads have been good machines, but do the new
X or T series laptops still live up to the reputation?

~~~
tpfour
I have a T470 and I love it. Some say the keyboards aren't what they used to
be, but overall, I absolutely love the machine. While I think it looks good, I
consider it a tool, not a fashion statement. I just need it to work, all the
time, and have a great keyboard. It has everything I personally need.

------
apple4ever
NO! That's the wrong way. Go the other way!

------
jdlyga
Look at the Dell XPS 13. It has a really good keyboard, and it's very thin.
It's not that hard.

~~~
mattbreeden
The XPS 13 is the worst keyboard I've ever used. It brings me great physical
pain to type on it. I had to quit using it as a laptop and exclusively use it
with an external keyboard because the finger pain was so great. I know many
people (like yourself) don't feel that way, but it was absolutely not
acceptable for me.

Thanks to the XPS when I picked out my new laptop keyboard quality/travel was
my #1 requirement by a tremendous margin.

------
gridlockd
_"...the keys are positioned much closer to the circuit board, reducing the
amount of travel and materials required to register a key press and to
actuate."_

If the goal is to _minimize_ travel, why have _any_ travel at all? Why not
just glue on the keys? Why not just paint on the keys?

~~~
garmaine
Wtf why is that a selling point? Thinner keyboards cause physical pain as your
fingers strike hard surfaces. NO THANKS!

~~~
matthewhartmans
It feels like they are getting people used to the thinner keys to make it more
like touching surface. Once people adapt to this, they will most likely swap
out the entire physical keyboard with a touch keyboard (the touch bar seems
like an incremental step).

------
arnonejoe
Please no. I want the 2015 or earlier MBP keyboard back.

~~~
ctdonath
IBM 5150 keyboard or papyrus!

~~~
berbec
[https://www.pckeyboard.com/](https://www.pckeyboard.com/)

------
mailopl
Who the hell needs a thinner MacBook? Are you gonna cut your bread with it?
Give me back my MagSafe, useful keyboard and extra ports you idiots!

------
kup0
At this point their products are thin enough. There really isn't a need to go
any further.

The quest for thinness at the expense of more important features is supremely
annoying, and I say that as someone that uses a number of Apple products
daily.

~~~
kratom_sandwich
I mean ... When was the last time thickness was a limiting factor to you in
any way?

Why not focus on weight or size, which really do make a difference in everyday
activities?

Edit: Most replies here in favor of thinness write something akin to "I want a
thinner MacBook because the current one is to heavy." But you're confusing two
aspects of the product, right? I agree that they probably go hand in hand most
of the time, but there might be occasions where thinner does not equal lighter
or thicker does not equal heavier and I guess most of us would be happier if
Apple focused on the weight aspect, not the thickness aspect ...

------
sg47
I'm in the process of switching to a 2015 MacBook Air at work because the
keyboard on my 2019 MacBook Pro is just unusable. I love the Mac external
keyboards. I don't understand why they can't put them in their laptops.

~~~
hombre_fatal
I'm so glad I kept my 2013 Air around for when my 2017 Pro became unusable
without an external keyboard.

------
flomo
... I have a 2016 MBP and I'm on my third keyboard/topcase (all repairs
covered by Apple, so thumbsup). But both times they also decided to replace
the logic board even though the computer was working fine and passed their
initial diagnostics.

I'm wondering if this isn't just a "dust and junk gets into the butterfly
mechanisms" and maybe these machines have thermal issues which is causing
mechanisms to get soft or melt.

Steve Jobs said PCs were "trucks", but current MBP seems way more of an
Italian sportacar which always has to be in the shop than a true truck.

------
TheKarateKid
They need to fix the thermal mess of the current MBPs. The fans spin up all
the time LOUD and it sounds horrible. My 2009 MBP was silent unless it was at
100% CPU for minutes with the vents blocked (on the bed).

~~~
puranjay
If the fan spins even when the system is idle, you might want to reset the SMC

~~~
TheKarateKid
Not when idle but a minimal amount of usage spikes, like 10-20% CPU for a
minute or so. IMO the fan really shouldn't be spinning up unless the CPU is
really under stress for several minutes.

~~~
puranjay
Do you hear the fan right after you start the laptop? That's usually an
indication that you need to reset the SMC.

I'd do it anyway. It doesn't affect the system at all and usually takes care
of most power and fan issues

------
ars
This is 100% the opposite of what I actually want.

I want a _thicker_ laptop, and even more important: greater key travel.

------
harel
It's interesting how posts about polarising "hardware choices" collect so many
comments. This really brings out the passion in people :)

I am not a mac user but I appreciate the thin design as it's something that
can go in my bag without thinking about it (as someone mentioned here). My
problem with Macs is that terrible keyboard. I can tell how many people are
using a new Mac in a noisy train carriage just by that furious clicking sound
of the keys (followed sometimes by moans and curses due to mistypes).

------
wopwops
As someone who gave up on Apple in the late 1990s, I experience schadenfreude
when they are having these totally unnecessary issues... Year after year after
year after year.

------
crb002
They need to bring back the 2013 Mac Pro with upgraded silicon. The thing is a
beast in a good tradeoff between portability and power.

------
pedalpete
Dell has created a maglev keyboard it uses in some of the XPS line. They've
kept these thin, but apparently the feel is quite good.

I've been wondering, couldn't a keyboard use magnetic levitation to increase
the key travel when the laptop is in use, but then turn off the magnets when
folded so they sit flat?

~~~
JoshTriplett
Providing key resistance with an electromagnet would cost battery. That said,
it'd be fun to be able to turn key resistance up or down.

~~~
pedalpete
I would think the battery drain would be negligible compared to your screen.
But hey, maybe you could turn it down when not plugged in!?

~~~
JoshTriplett
> I would think the battery drain would be negligible compared to your screen.

I don't know how much battery it would require, but you'd want to provide
enough resistance to make a keypress feel substantive and satisfying.

That said, with a careful and _fast_ feedback system, the keys could start out
with just enough force to hold up the keycap, detect a finger starting to
press them, and ramp up the force to that key to provide enough resistance,
then stop again when the key has traveled back up. That could reduce the
energy usage compared to always providing force comparable to a spring or
scissor switch.

That same feedback system could theoretically mimic the resistance curve of
various other keyboard technologies.

~~~
pedalpete
That's a really good point Josh, I was reading something about a month ago
about one of the gaming keyboard companies which has an adjustable magnetic
switch which lets the user change the key travel, which I believe was also
done via electromagnets.

Hopefully none of this is too far off. I'm not sure how the industry got
itself into its current condition of poor experiences due to a desire for the
great thinness.

------
blobs
I really hoped their focus would be on making an even better keyboard than the
one in MBP 2015, and of course the return of at least the physical escape
key.. But to be honest, I gave up all hope on that. They destroyed the MBP,
making it a more classy thing for the upper class maybe? At least, the latter
seems to become more and more their market.

For now I stick to my 2015 MBP, keeping it alive as long as possible. I refuse
to go to Windows. Although it's a solid OS, it feels like it's infected by
multiple viruses to me. They can go F* their selves with all their add-ware
rubbish, forced auto updates(silently adding even more sophisticated viruses),
sending home heaps of private data(including my keystrokes), etc, etc.. And
although I love Linux, as on OS it's just not good enough yet compared to OSX
IMHO.

------
cweagans
I want a mobile workstation, not this weird obsession with making it thinner,
lighter, etc. It's cool that it's thin and light, but function needs to come
over form. The keyboard is trash (literally causes me knuckle pain compared to
the old chiclet keyboards), the loss of magsafe has caused some pretty severe
damage to my last macbook (somebody wasn't looking where they were going in a
coffee shop and tripped over the cable -- took the entire laptop with it,
dented the case where it hit the ground, and screwed up the USB C port), and
the touchbar gets _hot_.

Give me a 2016 Macbook Pro with a retina display with an upgraded proc + ram +
user servicable parts. Or even better, open up macOS to other hardware so that
I can choose the system that works the best for me.

I don't need an appliance, but damn, I miss macOS.

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pschastain
I don't need a thinner MBP; I need ports, a reliable keyboard and a large
battery. I'm still using my old early '11 because I don't want to buy a new
laptop only to have to send it off for repairs or have to buy a bunch of
dongles to get the usability I need out of it.

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therealmarv
Fun fact: I have the MacBook Air 11" Core i7 from 2013 and Apple does not
produce that small, light and powerful laptops anymore. If I want an i7 15
Watt CPU in a 2019 refreshment (it was nearly as fast as MacBook Pro 13" in
2013) it has to be larger and heavier nowadays, haha

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stunt
Something tells me that they pretty much believe that PRO users should use
external keyboard. Which sounds really wrong to me. I don't care if macbookPRO
gets thinner. I like it to be lighter for sure but the thickness is not a
priority for me over keyboard.

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wpdev_63
I guess I won't getting this mac either. Anyone at apple who values a thinner
laptop over a ergonomic keyboard and longer battery life should be tared and
feathered. It's embarrassing that I have to say this out loud.

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rpmisms
I just want an ultra-low-profile mechanical switch. Something like a kailh
low-profile, but with apple genius applied. I'm sure it's possible, and I
would go buy a new mac right now if they did that.

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zer0zzz
I love my 2015 mbp like the next guy but if this can make the design more
reliable and less prone to wear or failures due to liquid spills (if it’s
sealed off) then I’d say this is a good thing

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classified
At this point, I don't want a thinner MacBook. One with a usable keyboard that
doesn't force dongle hell upon me would already be fantastic progress from the
status quo.

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rajacombinator
Lots of free money to be made by a company that can ship a reasonably priced
(eg 500-1000 cheaper) mbp clone running Linux. Sounds like something YC should
fund.

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collyw
Just what I was looking for - a thinner computer. /s

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nfoz
OK folks, I'm with you that I prefer phat juicy travel on my keyboards and
don't mind a thick laptop.

But guess what, that's not the only target audience for laptops. The Macbook
Air and recently-deceased Macbook are awesome because they're stylish and fit
in a purse. Let that sink in. There are many use-cases for extremely thin
devices that still have dedicated keyboards.

~~~
pdimitar
“You are not the target audience” is not an universal escape hatch in every
Apple discussion. It’s perfectly okay if Apple is targeting users that care
more about aesthetics. What’s not okay is that basic functionality is being
lost — namely typing reliably and predictably on your keyboard.

They went too far and the rumours that the upcoming 16” MacBook will not have
the type of keyboard that has been around ever since 2016 support the theory
that they realised that their idea sucked and it’s time for putting more
reliable keyboards in their laptops.

------
mnm1
I see they've given up on any semblance of ergonomics. Each idea listed in
this article seems less ergonomic than the previous. Glass panel. It even
sounds painful. Clearly these patents and their resulting products are aimed
at laypersons who do casual computing rather than power users. Seems on par
with every product they've released in the last four years or so.

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sfifs
And this attitude convinces me to never consider move off my beefy Dell
precision with its onboard CUDA GPU and Xeon processors :-)

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melling
What’s the ergonomics for a thin keyboard?

Must have a very short key travel distance causing one to bottom out on every
keystroke.

~~~
kps
I could only find the first edition online sans $$$, but ISO 9241-4 _Keyboard
Requirements_ said “The key displacement shall be between 1.5 mm and 6.0 mm.
The preferred key displacement should be between 2.0 mm and 6.0 mm.”

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davidbogue
The last paragraph in this article is the most concerning. Surely, this would
never happen?

"There has also been the suggestion of using glass panel keyboards with force
detection for each key, the addition of touch-sensitive keys, and replacing
the keyboard section of a MacBook entirely with a touchscreen."

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KoftaBob
Isn't thinness in a laptop the epitome of diminishing returns at this point?
The high end ones are already at a pretty ideal level of thin, anything
thinner is overkill and barely adds anything to the product.

If anything, they should be focusing on battery life, 4k webcam, OLED/HDR
displays, etc.

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blt
It seems that everybody in this thread is equating thin and light, but I don't
see why they should be so closely coupled.

After using a Chromebook for a while, my 2013 rMBP feels really heavy. Seems
like they could get some of the weight out but keep enough thickness for a
decent keyboard and airflow.

~~~
dsego
Agreed, my t480s weighs the same (even a bit less) as the 2016 macbook pro,
but it's chunkier and has all the ports.

------
auiya
If they instead used the extra space to include more battery capacity, people
would appreciate that more.

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butterisgood
No one cares about thinness... I want a keyboard that either doesn’t break or
doesn’t cost me 700 to fix.

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adamcharnock
Hold on. This patent was filed in May 2016, so presumably this concept was
being worked on around the same that the oft-unloved keyboards were being
developed/released. I may be missing something, but this sounds like old news
and not a signal of current thinking within Apple.

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christkv
I guess we will end up with this again
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Sinclair...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Sinclair-
ZX81.png)

------
Izkata
You can't get much thinner than a photon:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq6-2_mk0CI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq6-2_mk0CI)

Just integrated the projector/sensor into a tablet and add a way to stand it
on edge.

------
chooseaname
> The most recent attempt in August suggested the use of light in an "Optical
> Keyboard" to replace switches entirely, with key presses obscuring a light
> source and triggering a press.

Please no. I like key travel. This would virtually have none. Ok, a fraction.

------
0xdead
Here we go again. I thought they were going to bring back scissor switch? I
guess this is going to be an endless cycle of Apple fucking up new laptops,
deciding to switch back to a sane keyboard, and then suddenly forgetting about
the whole deal.

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wikibob
Does anyone have thoughts on the 15-inch versus the 13-inch MacBook Pro these
days?

Particularly anybody who has used both for an extended period of time. Is the
13 screen size impractical small? Is it worth the tradeoff in weight for being
easier to carry around?

~~~
biddit
I downsized from a 2016 15” to a 2017 13” a year and regret it. The screen and
dual core processor are really insufficient if you’re doing dev work. I
recently hopped on a 15” again and was blown away by how much more real estate
I had to work with. I don’t think the 1lb difference in weight is worth it at
all.

~~~
wikibob
Thanks! Do you carry it around daily on a commute?

~~~
biddit
Yes, I will admit that the 13" is crazy light and easy to carry, but not worth
the 1lb you save from the 15", per my reasons above.

------
ashishb
Has anyone here had any experience with moving to Linux?
[https://puri.sm/products/librem-15/](https://puri.sm/products/librem-15/)

------
kmjg88nvf8
Of course I want a thinner laptop, and so do you. You just don't want a
thinner laptop that compromises on other things.

I've seen the new Galaxy Book S and I want one. Thin is sexy. Apple has to
keep up.

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doctat
They’re not going to stop, until we are all typing on a flat glass panel with
our fingers, just like I’m doing with my thumbs on this iPhone. They already
did it with my beloved ESC key...

------
epx
The iPhone 5 and the 2012 MBP were the zenith of Apple design.

------
djohnston
They should just remove the keyboard entirely. At this point its a public
health risk, endangering millions of people's hands and wrists in the name of
chic

------
nottorp
How about evaluating new keyboard mechanisms to make them work as well as the
pre 2015 models in a dusty environment?

Apple needs to fire more designers, it seems...

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utopian3
It seems Apple no longer asks their customers what they want. They just tell
customers they want thinner while the customers groan

~~~
el_dev_hell
I'm not a fan of their thin-first addiction, but when in the history of Apple
have they asked customers what they want? Steve Jobs:

"Some people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's not my
approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do."

~~~
psweber
Well, sure, but that only works when the leader has a product vision.

~~~
Paperweight
He/she has to be a total design nazi to get it implemented, too, or else it
will be ruined by the bean counters, "experts", and committees.

"Sure, by using a crappy keyboard/display/_______ we only save 89 cents per
unit - but multiply that by 100,000 units!" (99% of laptop manufacturers)

~~~
psweber
It doesn't seem like that is the problem with Apple's keyboards. It's Tim Cook
not knowing the difference between aesthetics and the qualities that give a
product an overall "high end design" feel. You know, like, how it is to
actually use it.

The bean counter issue is causing them to leave out the extender part of the
power cord and the basically required USB hub with all the ports that "Pros"
need.

~~~
Paperweight
"organizations which design systems ... are constrained to produce designs
which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations." \-
Conway's law

I mean that a perfectionist dictator must be in charge of design if a company
is to make truly differentiated and tasteful hardware, instead of trending
towards the mediocrity pumped out by typical corporations. It's riskier, of
course, but that's how you make a $1T company, and it's the only way to
overrule the bean counters. It's like making art as an individual instead of
handing everyone a paintbrush.

Apple's design is (or was) completely under the control of Jony Ive, due to
the leadership of Steve Jobs. He is an opinionated, controlling industrial
designer and, although you may not like his designs, he sticks to his
principles. It is much easier to lead the way - and screw up - as an
individual. You can't please everybody, but you can at least have a cohesive
whole. Same kind of thing with Tesla vs every other major car company.

------
iamgopal
Acoustic keyboard would not only be water proof but also provide whatever
layout one wants. I hope they do that.

~~~
liability
You don't need to get fancy to make a laptop keyboard that tanks an errant
glass of beer poured into it. Thinkpads have had this figured out for years. I
accidentally put it to the test once and the result was a very sticky but
perfectly functional laptop. Took about an hour with a screwdriver set and
some rubbing alcohol on q-tips to make it good as new.

I shudder to think what a glass of beer would do to my MBA.

------
lcnmrn
Solid state keys with force feedback on each key like the key(s) on the
trackpad would do the trick.

------
rewgs
Totally shameless: currently selling a 2015 13” Retina display MBP if anyone
is interested.

------
goombastic
I think Apple's primary demographic now is people sitting in Starbucks.

~~~
liability
Evidently not people _typing_ in Starbucks..

------
doyoulikeworms
I just want the keyboard to last longer than a year without breaking.

------
api
I simply don't understand the obsession with this at Apple.

------
uptown
They want the keyboard to be a touchscreen.

~~~
barberousse
Habituating your user base on the way there is just something MS could never
pull off, too, the flip is the start menu never going away until all the baby
boomers are gone

------
qaq
I got used to the keyboard if they removed TouchBar I would be fine with
current gen. :)

------
gameswithgo
thermal throttling is already a problem. lets go thinner.

------
liquidify
we don't need thinner macbooks

------
sleepybrett
stop, key travel distance matters!

------
manav
I

~~~
usaphp
I want the left and right arrow keys to be small again, it drives me crazy
that I can’t get used to it and always misclick. The empty space above the
left and right keys was a great referral point

------
wtdata
When is enough just enough? Do the costumers really care about reducing a
further 1mm from the thickness of a laptop sacrificing: keyboard usability,
battery life and number of ports?

------
freyr
What if they flattened the keyboard completely? Replaced it with smooth glass?
It could also be the display. It would be a computer, but the size of a pad of
paper.

