
Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings - sp332
http://www.wbez.org/news/city-fires-investigator-who-found-cops-fault-shootings-112423
======
Zikes
I think it's time we recognized that we are essentially second class citizens,
after police.

They are consistently able to commit crimes without being prosecuted. They can
use their position and influence to target and harass their personal enemies.
When they are prosecuted for a crime, the sentencing is consistently far less
than a non-LEO offender's.

And there's no more recourse for us. When a police officer shows up, there's
nothing you can do, and no way to predict what will happen. If they're in the
mood, you can be beaten, pepper sprayed, tazed, bitten, or shot, for any
offense no matter how minor or imagined.

~~~
theseatoms
Agreed. Though I'm tempted to say that this problem isn't getting worse and
that our awareness is only becoming more acute, the existence of digital
information increases the potential for abuses of power. (No specific cases
come to mind at the moment, but I'd wager that it happens more than
occasionally.)

So what can we do about it? Record the police.

EDIT: Typo..

~~~
Zikes
Recording is a step, however that only addresses a small part of the issue:
proof of wrongdoing. Even in clear-cut cases with recordings, such as the Eric
Garner incident, it does not seem to lead to real justice. Every other day I'm
reading an article about cases where there are no doubts as to the events, but
no charges are ever brought.

I think the first thing that needs to be addressed is the lack of independent,
third-party mediators, capable of policing the police and enforcing fair and
balanced punishments.

Second, we need to address the corruption, collusions, and abuses of power
that come from being involved in the justice system. If you are a member of
the court or a law enforcement officer and were, e.g. pulled over for a moving
violation, there is a very good chance that revealing your profession will
result in your release with no record or punishment.

I have sat in a court while my father was being tried for a felony. Since my
family are essentially nobodies, there was no one else in the court prior to
proceedings beginning except us and the court staff. We listened as the
prosecutor spoke in a familiar tone with the various staff in court, including
the judge, about a recent vacation he had taken out of state. He mentioned
that he was pulled over for speeding, but once he told the officer who he was
he was let go, and he was very proud of it. About an hour later, he was
calling my father a "monster with no regard for the law".

~~~
theseatoms
> We listened as the prosecutor spoke in a familiar tone with the various
> staff in court, including the judge, about a recent vacation he had taken
> out of state. He mentioned that he was pulled over for speeding, but once he
> told the officer who he was he was let go, and he was very proud of it.
> About an hour later, he was calling my father a "monster with no regard for
> the law".

Is this for real? Unbelievable.

And yes, it seems that proof of wrongdoing is often not enough. Hopefully the
public outrage that these cases ignite can be sustained and channeled
productively, towards greater accountability and transparency.

~~~
Zikes
Unfortunately recording devices are not allowed in courts, and it was not a
part of actual court proceedings, so there's no way for me to prove that it
happened. I can put it forth only as a first-hand account.

Regardless, that's the day I realized that the police and the courts are their
own entity separate from and above the rest of society. Our only hope is to
minimize contact.

------
ClayM
This is pretty much all you need to read:

Davis’s termination came less than two weeks after top IPRA officials,
evaluating Davis’s job performance, accused him of “a clear bias against the
police” and called him “the only supervisor at IPRA who resists making
requested changes as directed by management in order to reflect the correct
finding with respect to OIS,” as officer-involved shootings are known in the
agency.

Since its 2007 creation, IPRA has investigated nearly 400 civilian shootings
by police and found one to be unjustified.

~~~
jMyles
Can you imagine if your build process worked that way?

"Yeah, the integration tests failed 400 times, but in all but one of them, it
was the test runner that was the problem."

~~~
sp332
Our product killed 400 people, but we're pretty sure 399 of them deserved it.

~~~
yebyen
To be fair, that they were shot by an officer does not imply that they were
killed. Of course I haven't read the statistics in detail, maybe we're only
investigating these cases because they were cases where the person was killed.
</cynical outlook>

------
jMyles
Reading about the internal administrative process in large municipal
governments is like learning about business in an alien culture.

I can't imagine a healthy, successful organization of any kind making such an
inane and chilling statement:

> The spokesman said there would be no interview and sent this statement:
> “This is a personnel matter that would be inappropriate to address through
> the media, though the allegations are baseless and without merit. IPRA is
> committed to conducting fair, unbiased, objective, thorough and timely
> investigations of allegations of police misconduct and officer-involved
> shootings.”

> The performance evaluation covered 19 months and concluded that Davis
> “displays a complete lack of objectivity combined with a clear bias against
> the police in spite of his own lengthy police career.”

~~~
bitwize
> Reading about the internal administrative process in large municipal
> governments is like learning about business in an alien culture.

Vogons?

------
shostack
I think I speak for all Chicagoans when I say "what were you expecting?" This
is in a state where of our last seven governors, FOUR ended up in prison.
That's a whopping 57%. There's a joke that our politicians have an "orange
parachute" when they leave their jobs.

When you add in all the other police issues over the years, you end up with
not a single Chicagoan surprised at this outcome. The state and the city are
corrupt beyond belief.

Despite the cost to the tax payer, I'd love to see this guy sue the crap out
of everyone involved. Of course, that's a risky move because you know,
something could _happen_ to him.

------
digitalneal
Lotta people here talking like they understand Chicago politics.

The people who investigate these incidents were appointed to investigate them
because City and State agree'd that CPD was unwilling to investigate the
misdeeds of their department.

So they setup an Independent review board. Which sounds nice and independent
but...(Mayor and CPD friends filled it with former CPD brass or family of
former CPD or former consultants to CPD)

Now they are firing investigators because they don't give reports that appease
the department.

This is just another feather in the hat of police corruption rolling thru
Chicago.

------
vaadu
This is why all officer involved shootings should be investigated and
prosecuted(if necessary) by people with no skin in the game for any outcome.

~~~
rquantz
Specifically, investigation of police should the purview of the Federal
Justice Department.

~~~
late2part
I disagree. We need more state rights and autonomy, we don't need the Feds to
come in and babysit a state.

What Chicago needs to do is get managed by IL. And IL needs to realize that
the corrupt people are getting voted in by IL citizens.

~~~
rquantz
And yet the federal government is the only entity so far that seems to have
any effect on police brutality. States have a history of ignoring or actively
disparaging civil rights. Occasionally federalism is a harmless relic, but a
lot of times the people crying about the federal government babysitting them
are the ones who are trying to act unconstitutionally.

------
imglorp
And this is why a democracy needs independent checks and balances at every
level.

------
drzaiusapelord
Even though liberals will deny this, the main issue here is that police unions
are completely out of control and have this kind of power. The Independent
Police Review Authority is full of union stooges, ex-cops, etc and is designed
to protect cops.

The real question is when will we start having the political will to question
public sector unions? They seem to only make city services more expensive,
more corrupt, and in the case of cops, lead to legalized murder.

Decent piece on how this board and the union work to protect bad cops. You
just can't expect the police to police themselves.

[http://www.wbez.org/news/who-polices-police-chicago-its-
incr...](http://www.wbez.org/news/who-polices-police-chicago-its-increasingly-
ex-cops-111194)

Now a WBEZ investigation raises questions about just how independent the
agency is. City records obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request
show that IPRA’s management now includes six former cops — officials who have
spent most of their career in sworn law enforcement. Those include the
agency’s top three leaders.

~~~
mingus68040
> _" Even though liberals will deny this..."_

This blanket assumption is probably why you're being down-voted. The easiest
way to avoid this is by supporting your statements with as many facts as
possible.

A simple google search proved that this is not at all the case, for example,
and that Republicans show much stronger support of police unions.

[http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/12/the-gop-
and...](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/12/the-gop-and-police-
unions-a-love-story.html)

This selective support among Republicans suggests that you're addressing the
wrong crowd.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
This is Chicago, we really have no republicans in power.

The downvotes are just knee-jerk stupidity because the MSM doesn't report much
on union abuse and unions largely get a free pass in the US for political
reasons. Democrats won't go after them as they more or less pay for Democratic
campaigns.

~~~
slantyyz
As a non-American, I find it interesting how so many Americans (especially
online commenters) refer to other Americans only as liberal/Democrat or
conservative/Republican these days.

Is America _that_ polarized? Or, are the people with more complex views (i.e.,
having both liberal and conservative viewpoints) just less likely to speak
out?

~~~
rosser
Yes, and yes.

America is that polarized, and when people with more nuanced views speak up,
they tend to get shouted down immediately by the "side" that sees some aspect
of "the other side"'s views in the nuance, drowning them out in the noise.

Want to make a nuanced point in a discussion about gun control? You're
probably from Kenya, too. Want to make a subtle distinction in a debate about
investment banks, or energy policy? You must hate poor people, or the planet,
or...

Net, we (or at least I) tend not to get involved in political discussions, as
I'm almost invariably going to have to spend more time arguing about how I'm
_not_ actually a filthy lib'ral or whatever, than about the point I'd wanted
to make in the first place, so fuck it. You guys have fun shouting yourselves
hoarse and slapping yourselves on the back for how hateful you can be towards
random strangers on the internet.

~~~
zo1
Or if you advocate more Libertarian principles/discussion, you're immediately
told to "move to Somalia". Yes, I've gotten that one on HN even, IIRC.

~~~
rosser
I guess it depends on exactly _how_ "Libertarian" a view one is espousing.

"Why should I have to pay for a fire department? My house isn't on fire!"
Yeah, that guy needs to move to Somalia. Not so he can experience what that
degree of government-free state is actually like, but rather so the rest of us
don't have to put up with that kind of idiocy.

~~~
zo1
Just because you can't conceive up voluntary methods of community-funded fire-
protection services, doesn't mean the concept is "idiotic".

I'm going to pass on getting into another Freedom discussion, seeing as you're
already off to referring to certain ideas as "idiocy". Hardly the platform for
a decent, logical debate on the topic.

~~~
rosser
Who funds the "community-funded" fire protection services if not _the
community_? That is, the people who would stand to benefit from those
services, should they ever find their house on fire.

The most "libertarian" example of a community funded fire service I've ever
heard of is the one where you pay "dues" to the fire department, and they'll
come put out the fire if your house ever catches. If you don't, they'll come
up to your property line and make sure the fire doesn't spread, but otherwise
just stand there, watching your shit burn.

This actually happens, and I have exactly _zero_ sympathy for the people who
don't pay in.

That's what I'm talking about when I say "idiocy": people who claim to be
Libertarian, but whose attitude is more, "Fuck you, I've got mine!" punctuated
by, "Oh, shit! Someone expend community resources to help me with this!" You
don't get to have it both ways; either you contribute meaningfully to the
upkeep of the society whose membership you wish to benefit from, or you don't
get to benefit from participation in that society.

EDIT: Sorry, I guess, if my tone is dismissive or offensive. I'm just sick to
death of people walking around, talking a "Taxes Я theft!" position, but who
expect to benefit from the things that those taxes pay for.

~~~
ectoplasm
How do you handle housing where owners share at least one wall with their
neighbors?

~~~
rosser
If it were up to me, I'd make owning property with a "party wall" contingent
upon membership in some form of home-owner's association, the dues of which
are used to pay the dues to such a community fire brigade, as well as things
like insurance on the common parts of the building, and such.

I'm not sure how you'd handle delinquency in paying those dues, but it would
probably be somehow legally actionable.

EDIT: It's probably somewhat moot, anyway, as the overwhelming majority of
these dues-based fire brigades exist in predominantly rural areas, where party
walls aren't typically a thing.

------
backtoyoujim
to wit from the article:

The performance evaluation covered 19 months and concluded that Davis
“displays a complete lack of objectivity combined with a clear bias against
the police in spite of his own lengthy police career.”

That is a serpent choking down its own tail.

~~~
sp332
My favorite part: _Through most of his IPRA tenure, Davis’s performance
evaluations showered him with praise. They called him an “effective leader”
and “excellent team player.” The final evaluation, issued June 26, said he “is
clearly not a team player.”_

------
justwannasing
Gonna give you guys a few quick blurbs.

First, a chief of police was interviewed on CBS News a while back. He said
there are thousands upon thousands of police interactions with citizens every
day but all anyone ever hears about is the one bad one that happened one time.

Second, and this might sound off-topic but I hope you get my point. I was
helping a guy move, a few months back, along with one of his friends who's a
rookie cop. This took place over several days. Each day, we rode in a truck a
coule of miles and, along the way, he would occasionally say, "Expired plates.
Expired plates." cause we couldn't go a mile without him finding one. And not
just by a month or so but, in one case it was almost a year.

Which brought up racial profiling, as you could imagine. He said, "There is no
race indicator on a radar gun." And "When I see something go wrong and I light
it up, I can't tell who I'm pulling over, much less what race they are, until
I get out of the car. And I don't care. You could look at my ticketing and
arrests for the few months I've been on the job and say I do racial profiling
cause most of them are [insert what you know it is] cause, from what I can
tell, most of them do the things that get them tickets or arrested and put in
jail."

I think of that every time I see an article, here on HN, and the comments by
people trying to blame the cops for everything as if they're against us.

EDIT: As I pointed out, right away, the first two commenters entirely missed
my point.

~~~
dragontamer
I've got cops in my Family... and any cop will tell you that bad cops exist.

Only with proper independent review panels can justice be served against a bad
cop. I'm not necessarily "anti-cop", but I know the importance of a robust cop
investigation unit.

~~~
mbrameld
If your cop family members are aware of bad cops but do nothing about it then
they are bad cops too.

~~~
afarrell
What specifically should they do?

~~~
mbrameld
They should do exactly what they would do if it were a non-LEO breaking the
law in front of them: arrest them.

