
U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year - Reedx
https://hechingerreport.org/university-of-chicago-projected-to-be-the-first-u-s-university-to-charge-100000-a-year/
======
WhompingWindows
UChicago 2011 graduate here. When I attended, I paid about $20k/year in
tuition, given that I had various merit scholarships, worked for the
university, and that my siblings also attended school. My parents were in for
a RUDE awakening in my fourth year, however, when my brother graduated his
undergraduate program...UChicago found out via a survey, that I was now the
sole college attendee, and without warning they jacked the tuition from $20k
to $32k for my final year. My parents were absolutely livid and it left a
terrible taste in our mouths.

I must say, it was not a pleasant undergraduate experience. On top of being
expensive and working very long hours daily, it was immensely competitive and
the social life was very poor for me. I have always had numerous friends in
life, but I constantly felt lonely at that school, not to mention receiving
MUCH worse marks due to grade deflation, which made medical school
applications a nightmare.

In hindsight, I absolutely should have gone to my state school, and I'd be a
Tesla and a Steinway piano richer for it if I had. I think these ridiculously
expensive, 4 year educational vacations need to end...let's encourage our
young, bright minds to stay local, to save money, and to use their brightness
and talents to lead very productive and EFFICIENT lives.

~~~
Glyptodon
I got in to University of Chicago, but the finances were rough. They expected
my parents to pay around 30% of their (combined) income in tuition after
scholarships and loans. Presumably this would have dropped when my brother
entered college a year after me, but given that I got into other schools that
cost less than half as much it wasn't really a question.

My parents didn't really know what to tell me because on one hand they felt
like they were being punished for not making profligate decisions like going
into debt for a fancy car or buying a bigger house, but on they other hand
they didn't really want to outright tell me not to go somewhere like U of
Chicago.

Made me feel like college admissions spiels saying not to worry about finances
were a lip-service scam designed to make college look accessible while mostly
benefiting the rich and very poor and screwing those in-between.

Went to a state university instead, but never really fit in there. Too much
alcohol, greek life, and sports.

In any case, I don't mean to imply that my parents didn't have a decent
income, just that the way things worked made them feel like they were being
punished for trying to be financially responsible, and being asked to pay the
equivalent of a 2nd mortgage for your kid's college only for them to be in
debt on top of it anyway, and not knowing how things would work once they had
a 2nd kid in college wasn't a strong sell. Even though they didn't say not to
go there, I would have felt super super guilty about saying yes.

Fun fact: the scholarship U of Chicago offered would have covered the cost of
attendance at each other college I got into and then some, but still didn't
cover even half of the cost of attendance there.

~~~
e40
_just that the way things worked made them feel like they were being punished
for trying to be financially responsible_

100% feel you, as I my son just started UCSD. He was looking at a bunch of
private colleges and I did the financial aid (for early decision) and it was
really shitty. I felt that because I had so much equity in my house and no
debt, I was screwed. And, when the numbers came back, it was true. Very little
help.

I have a work friend who has a very close friend. They're both Dr's pulling
down > $500k/yr, but with huge debt. Their kid got into Princeton and they
paid $15k/yr. I was more than double that for some equivalent schools, but I
make far, far less than $500k/yr.

Very glad he decided on UCSD.

~~~
ariwilson
So is the life advice to go massively in debt (and jack up your income) before
your kids apply to colleges? How far in advance do you have to go massively in
debt?

EDIT: Looking at Princeton's financial needs calculator, assuming a constant
income, to maximize your financial aid you should: \- Reduce your assets: Buy
a really expensive house, have nothing in savings/investments/other equity \-
Reduce your income: Pay a ton for private school tuition, medical expenses, or
child support.

EDIT 2: Looking around some more, apparently FAFSA doesn't consider: Your
primary residence Your car A boat you may own or furniture in your home
Untaxed Social Security as income

Here comes my big house / Bugatti / yacht!

------
sorenn111
One thing I find crazy is the very same institutions that are generally very
left leaning, decry income inequality, and espouse generally liberal views
then turn around and having tuition costs that having been rising at rates so
far above inflation.

Student debt is a major issue in the US and the ever increasing costs of
tuition are a MAJOR culprit in pushing this crisis. Where are these costs
coming from? How can you politically espouse free college while ratcheting up
tuition costs?

~~~
Finnucane
I work at one local university, and my wife works at another. One thing we've
definitely noticed (and this is a widespread problem) is that the
administration is becoming more top-heavy. There are cutbacks in faculty,
support, and teaching staff, more reliance on adjuncts (academic temps,
basically), and so on, while central administration grows. Expensive new
buildings contribute, but less than people suppose. But that is a tangential
problem, in that wealthy donors want to give big gifts for vanity projects
rather than to, say, scholarship funds.

~~~
moduspol
I worked for five years at a private university a few years ago, and my
experience is similar, although to add a little:

It never felt like a plan or conspiracy to make administration costs bigger.
It's just very easy to do when you have more money coming in, year after year.
In another economic environment, you'd get a "hard no" because the money isn't
there. But when there is, expenditures become just another bargaining chip.
Maybe you get your seventh librarian this year, and I get my fifth network guy
next year.

New buildings (as you stated) aren't as big of a contributor as expected due
to the convoluted role of donations, grants, etc. But another big factor for
those buildings is that we were getting loans for them, too, and those were
based on (big surprise) long term forecasts presuming this gravy train is
going to keep on chugging for the next 30+ years. And even then we were
getting projections of our "debt capacity" and always riding that line, so
it's debt on top of debt all the way down.

I don't know about big schools, but for a smaller one like ours, there was no
visible bad faith. These kind of things just happen when you can keep bringing
in more and more money and so can your competitors.

~~~
supahfly_remix
Are the people who actually teach the classes (professors who teach and TAs)
getting raises matching the tuition raises in your school? Or, is all of the
money diverted to administration?

~~~
moduspol
I wasn't in a position to be explicitly told, although I did at one point see
an anonymized list of faculty salaries and they did not seem unreasonable
(only one in six figures). This school is about 40 minutes away from a city
with an international airport.

I think "diverted" is perhaps a strong word here. The way administrators see
it, the administration is necessary to even reach the point where faculty can
teach classes, and provides a significant role in empowering them to do so.

And there's some validity to it. Besides, students' expectations with regards
to faculty haven't changed nearly as much over the last ~20 years when
compared to administrative departments. Students absolutely expect good WiFi,
good Internet speeds, Google Apps-quality e-mail, and that's just tech stuff.
Colleges are implicitly competing with other colleges with things like on-
campus events, residence halls, modern cafeterias, online course registration,
athletics... all kinds of stuff. There's a lot of money involved in these
expectations that has outpaced the faculty side.

But it's cyclical. We pump money into those things to keep retention up
because we need to because the other schools are doing it.

~~~
klipt
> Students absolutely expect good WiFi, good Internet speeds, Google Apps-
> quality e-mail, and that's just tech stuff.

My personal internet with Comcast is ~$60/month, so assuming universities have
greater bargaining power due to scale that shouldn't make much of a dent in
tuition. And my college email interface was clunky but I just set it up to
forward everything to Gmail, which is free.

~~~
moduspol
It's not really reasonable to compare a residential ISP to one for a college
campus. It probably is cheaper if you count only the Internet service itself,
but everything between that ISP and each end user's device has significant
fixed and maintenance / upgrade costs attached. Your residential ISP can give
you an all-in-one modem / WiFI router and you're good to go.

------
rubidium
More people need to talk about what Purdue is doing. They’ve held tuition
constant for 8 years since Mitch Daniels took over.

[https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2019/Q1/purdue-
anno...](https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2019/Q1/purdue-announces-
ongoing-tuition-freeze,-staff-appreciation-payment-for-west-lafayette-
campus.html)

------
misiti3780
As a US citizen, I see the US debt bomb ending it two different ways

1\. Sanders/Warren get elected and somehow forgive 1.5 trillion in student
loans and make education free going forward.

2\. 2008 level crisis

with (2) is the more probable

I think universities tuition is way too expensive in our country, but I'm
against (1) currently because I don't think retroactively forgiving debt is a
good policy. The students took those loans out, signed the docs, and knew (or
should have known) what they were getting themselves into. I think forgiving
all of the debt would be obviously ridiculously expensive (1.5 trillion is a
lot of money) but also possibly creates moral hazard.

I would be more supportive of (1) if the government took more of a "Canadian
pharma industry" approach and just said "this is how much we will pay for this
citizen to go to Harvard, take it or leave it". I have no faith that any of
the current presidential candidates will be able to negotiate and pass that
type of law, so I currently cant support (1).

Is my line of thinking wrong here? I think education should be more affordable
but have no faith we have leaders that can get us there.

~~~
fortran77
I'm completely against forgiving student loans. I want to solve the problem,
which means no more Government backed student loans. (I'm all for the
Government building more low-cost public Universities, though.)

But if they are going to forgive them, certainly the students who prided
themselves on being the best and the brightest should have known better!
Therefore, anyone in the top 10% of SAT scores or at the top 100 schools
should not be eligible for discharge. If you're smart enough to get into
Chicago or Harvard, you're smart enough to know how loans work.

~~~
asdfman123
I would be angry because I lived in the cheapest apartment I could and biked
as much as I could until I paid everything off. Had I been less responsible, I
would get more money under debt forgiveness. The incentives are inverted. I'm
all for wealth redistribution but messing with incentives is shown over and
over again to be a bad idea.

Also, my perspective as the kind of frugal guy that everyone else calls cheap
is that we live in the most rampantly consumerist society that has ever
existed on the planet earth and we think we need all kinds of things that we
really don't.

I just can't stomach the idea of throwing money to people who knew what they
signed up for but then decided paying back what they owed was too hard.

~~~
jetpks
Because you suffered, everyone in perpetuity must also suffer?

~~~
buboard
If this argument is made in public, people will never support debt
forgiveness. not only it breaks the social contract with severe entitlement,
it's also very hard to accept that people who can afford harvard or stanford
"suffer"

populist emotional arguments are good when there is the populus to empathize
with it. the vast majority of people won't care for such "plight".

~~~
asdfman123
You have to realize a lot of kids who went to Harvard and Stanford were just
smart kids from normal suburban families and middle class homes. And many of
them have middle class jobs, just like people with similar SAT scores who went
to state schools instead.

Be wary of populist urges to tear down people you perceive to be "better" than
you because maybe they're really not, or they're not the cause of the problem.
Do things that will improve society, not just satiate your urge for blood.

~~~
erikpukinskis
What’s the endgame though? You have the federal government pay UChigago $100k
a year times however many kids? And then when UChicago raises the price to
$120k, the federal government pays that?

Where does it end?

I’m not against free college, or debt forgiveness, but sometimes even if you
have a goal there’s no regulatory framework that can meet it.

If I wanted to prohibit abortions, while discouraging birth control, and
ensuring victims of abuse get to control their bodies... well, sorry. There’s
just no regulatory framework that can achieve that. Doesn’t matter what I
think is “right”.

------
skywhopper
The data is this article are pretty misleadingly framed. The only time they
quote the current cost, they use the base tuition number of $57,642. In the
next sentence they say that in six years the cost is projected to be over
$100,000. But the latter number includes all additional costs: tuition, room
and board, books, fees, supplies, transportation, and living expenses. The
former number is just tuition. UChicago is crazy expensive, but it's not
doubling in cost in the next six years.

------
chrischattin
How to fix student loans...

The .gov backs student loans. And, they are non-dischargeable. So, it is zero
risk for the lender to give loan to the 2.7 GPA moron getting a worthless
basket weaving degree from the local private lib arts school for $100k. So,
they give as many loans as possible, since they can't lose (taxpayer on the
hook). Colleges are incentivized to drive up costs of tuition b/c tons of free
money.

It's a classic moral hazard created by .gov guaranteeing the loans. Same thing
we saw in the housing crisis.

Make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy or take away the .gov guarantee
and watch the market for student loans for worthless degrees dry up and
tuition costs plummet.

~~~
julienb_sea
Good luck with that. You just made college out of reach for everyone that
isn't already wealthy, exacerbating inequality and further entrenching class
boundaries.

To be clear, I agree with you, rip out the loan guarantees and let the private
market deal. But progressives would never allow this.

~~~
smileysteve
> You just made college out of reach for everyone that isn't already wealthy

Immediately yes, fortunately, there is a supply and demand curve, so if you
cut the demand for a bunch of colleges that already exist; then the price
should find a new equilibrium. Of course, as is the science of economics, time
and outside influences matter.

~~~
marrone12
So what do you say to all the people for who college will be out of reach
while the market "equalizes"?

~~~
smileysteve
The same thing we're telling financially concerned people now; public
colleges, community colleges, trade schools.

Fortunately, in a low unemployment world, also means that hiring should be
very elastic to this change.

------
whafro
One big problem here is that they'll be rewarded in the rankings. A bit part
of the various rankings models (US News, etc) is how much money is spent on
each student. So squandering $10k more on students next year is, in certain
respects, a good investment for a university with decent cash flow.

And the question of how much money is spent on a student can be disconnected
from the question of tuition, at least at top-tier schools:

At my alma mater, Bowdoin, the college spends just shy of $100k per student
each year. The comprehensive fee (incl. room & board) is around $72k per year,
and for students qualifying for financial aid (abour half), the college
provides grants that bring it down to about $24k per year, which almost
resembles something sensible.

But if you're a donor, and you give an unrestricted gift to a top-tier college
or university, there should be absolutely no expectation that your donation
will be spent frugally. In fact, for rankings purposes (which help all the
cash flow stuff above), it just matters that it gets raised and spent.

I think this is one of the biggest problems in American higher ed, and I'm
hoping there are a few institutions with the fortitude of character to stand
against it and work toward, rather than against, a cost-effective education
model in the US.

------
ttcbj
For those interested in background on this, Paul Tough's 'The Years that
Matter Most'[1] has a lot of really interesting, surprising facts about
college admissions.

Many of the ideas touched on in the comments here so far are covered in much
more detail in that book. One interesting fact is that although there is a lot
of publicity from colleges about reaching out to lower income students, there
are massive incentives (often necessities) for admissions offices to take less
qualified kids who can pay full price.

Overall, I found the book a nuanced and surprising view of the realities of
trying to manage college admissions, and of trying to deal with inequality in
access to higher education.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Years-That-Matter-Most-
College/dp/054...](https://www.amazon.com/Years-That-Matter-Most-
College/dp/0544944488/ref=sr_1_2?crid=C8FMCYCPK4UT&keywords=paul+tough&qid=1572885672&s=books&sprefix=Paul+TOugh%2Caps%2C154&sr=1-2)

~~~
lonelappde
People who pay "full price" are paying extra for the poor students. Schools
need both.

------
nothrabannosir
Honest question from an outsider: how realistic would it be for the government
to stop guaranteeing student loans over a "public university" (community
college?) level threshold? What are the unintended secondary effects? Would it
help curb wild-growth of tuition fees?

~~~
LanceH
The very first step should be to make student loans dischargeable in
bankruptcy again.

~~~
bluedevil2k
This would be a mistake I think. The nature of a loan is that the lender can
reclaim the asset when a default occurs. This works well for assets like cars
and houses but obviously fails for knowledge. Combine that with the age and
overall assets of graduates (22 and near-zero) and a bankruptcy becomes a less
risky proposition to the student. As more and more default on the loans,
interest rates will start to skyrocket, to the point that no one will be able
to afford one at all.

~~~
garmaine
And then universities will stop assuming their students will be able to get
them to afford insane tuition prices. That’s the point.

------
chimi
Throughout history, every time loans are invented to pay for something, the
price skyrockets. House, Cars, Education... except credit cards. What credit
cards did is flatten the salary curve, filling the gap between where salaries
should be if they increased as much or more than inflation and the cost of
living, with debt.

Debt is a powerful tool when used correctly, but most people are unskilled in
tool use, financial equations and _themselves_ thus, debt is a Market for
Lemons.

Consumers do not know what they are buying. They are buying _cash_ and paying
for it with future income.

People are generally more optimistic about their futures and irrationally
excited about what they consume.

The banks have been allowed to sell cash with impunity. We have to stop that.
We're just cooking the books as an entire society.

~~~
apta
> Throughout history, every time loans are invented to pay for something, the
> price skyrockets.

Which is why interest-bearing loans are prohibited in the three major
religions. Puts things into perspective.

~~~
glerk
Which major religion other than Islam forbids it?

~~~
richardknop
It's been some time since my Bible studies but isn't there something in the
Old Testament against loans / lending money with interest?

~~~
wolco
No. It says the borrower is a slave to the lender and to be aware. But it is
not against the Church.

~~~
apta
Leviticus 25:36-37 says otherwise.

------
codedokode
The prices in USA look exorbitant. If a worker works full year for minimum
wage, they earn $7.25 * 8 * 253 = $14674. Such worker will have to work for 6
years and 9 months to pay tuition costs for 1 year, if we assume that they
don't have to pay taxes, buy food, visit a doctor and pay the rent.

A house may cost several hundred thousands dollars or higher. If that worker
has paid for a university, no way they will be able to buy a house in their
remaining lifespan.

Who is going to study in this university? Billionaires' kids?

~~~
war1025
Private school tuition is the same as healthcare in the US.

Everything has an enormous sticker price for anyone who asks, but no one is
expected to actually pay that amount. And if you do pay that amount, it's just
because you're a sucker who didn't get in on the fact that it's just a made up
number.

Rich kids may pay that amount, but it probably gets flipped around into some
tax-advantaged "donation" that also helps people feel good about themselves.

Poor people get "scholarships", which are really just the university cutting
the sticker price down to what they actually need from the person, with some
creative shuffling of funds to make it look like they are paying "sticker
price".

Healthcare works exactly the same. The key is to have enough layers of
bureaucracy that no one can quite figure it all out.

~~~
shsjxjbsbs
I don’t believe it’s true that rich people are getting to write off college
costs as a donation. They might be paying them out of a tax advantaged 529
account. The magnitude of this advantage is such that middle-class people
probably care the most about it.

~~~
war1025
there are very few people who don't consider themselves middle-class, so
that's not really a useful category I'd think.

------
ilamont
It's not stated, so I assume that the current "all in" cost is about $75-80k.
Some private universities in the Boston area are not far behind, including
Brandeis, BU, BC, Tufts, and I believe MIT.

I have a high school senior and have been visiting many schools across the
U.S. and Canada since last summer. The schools with sky-high all-in costs are
not even consideration. _If_ they lop off $10k-$15k per year, we will still be
paying a quarter of a million dollars for a four-year education. There are no
guarantees of this, either, considering grades and our middle class AGI.

The schools we have looked at are mostly public. Our in-state dream option,
UMass Amherst, is "only" ~$30k/year all in, but is now super-competitive,
likely because of outrageous private college costs driving families to the
affordable options. The only comparable values are the schools we have seen in
Canada - University of Ottawa, Carleton University, and Concordia.

Out-of-state public universities for out of state students in New England
(URI, UConn, UVM) plus Pitt and Temple are generally high 40s/low 50s. CU
Boulder was mid-upper 50s. I can't remember UCSD but it in that range, plus
travel considerations.

~~~
tzs
> I have a high school senior and have been visiting many schools across the
> U.S. and Canada since last summer. The schools with sky-high all-in costs
> are not even consideration. If they lop off $10k-$15k per year, we will
> still be paying a quarter of a million dollars for a four-year education.
> There are no guarantees of this, either, considering grades and our middle
> class AGI.

You might want to reconsider those "schools with sky-high all-in costs". Many
of them have very generous non-loan aid packages, which for many people can
actually bring the effective cost below those of state schools.

For example, take Harvard, which totals about $74k/year.

A family of 3 (2 parents, 1 child) with $160k/year gross income only ends up
having to cover $25k/year. A similar family with $120k/year pays $13k/year.
They have a net price calculator here [1] if you want to see what it would
cost you.

[1] [https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-
calculat...](https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-calculator)

~~~
ilamont
I've seen private schools promoting such aid, but for most there is no clarity
on A) whether your student will qualify and B) what the amount will be over
the 4-year period.

I've heard from friends with students already in college that there are often
ad hoc negotiations between parents and financial aid offices about the size
of the discount, which is frustrating, unfair, and open to abuse.

~~~
closeparen
Financial aid offices typically offer a lightweight calculator you can run
when shopping, and a more intense application you can run in parallel with
your application for admission. You get a formal aid offer with your
acceptance before you have to commit.

~~~
lonelappde
Formal 1 yr offer, not 4 yr offer, so be careful. It's a bit of a trick, that
part.

------
stefano
What I find funny in these discussions on HN is how most people seem to be
completely oblivious to the obvious solution, proven to work in many developed
countries around the world: have the state directly fund universities and
don't charge tuition to students (or charge them a small amount). Why is the
assumption "universities are private endeavours that should make a profit"
something that goes unchallenged on HN?

~~~
kansface
Most colleges/universities are nonprofits and they still charge tens of
thousands per semester. I will also point out that the European model is not
free, universal college degrees for all - access is restricted behind rigorous
entrance exams. Such a system would be politically untenable in the US wherein
a growing movement wants to do away with all entry tests. What would actually
happen in practice is that we would get a different flavor of the worst of
both worlds.

~~~
mam2
> I will also point out that the European model is not free, universal college
> degrees for all - access is restricted behind rigorous entrance exams

WHAT ?? Not. at. all.

I'm french and university is almost FREE (never more than 1000 euros a year
and mostly around 300) for anyone with the A-level, at any age. Yeah of course
there are exams like for any diploma in the entire world but there are not
"super rigorous" especially at uni. There's only a "hard" exam in medecine,
and normal "exams" every year (like in every program in the world) that are
basically a joke for anyone qualified in these disciplines. If you want you
can enroll in elite tracks, which are very hard, but they are almost free too
(i paid 0 for the education, 200 a year for housing + around 60 euro per month
of food).

Granted you have amphitheater with hundreds of people, but if you are
motivated you'll get the education.

The most expensive school in frances are the high end economic school and some
engineering school (not the best ones actually) and it's under 10k a year.

You have no idea of how much you get screwed in the US

~~~
jorblumesea
> You have no idea of how much you get screwed in the US

This is true of many issues the US faces that Europe has solved. Healthcare,
education, income inequality, housing, transportation, gun violence...

Just go down down the list and it's easy to find "unsolvable American
problems" that have solutions, and that we Americans are totally ignorant
about or refuse to acknowledge, saying it "won't work for us".

~~~
briandear
Has Europe solved these things? I lived in France for a number of years and
unemployment, especially outside of Paris is very high, the economy is in the
doldrums (especially in smaller cities like Avignon,) the Maghreb continue to
be treated like second class citizens, and terrorism is a very real and
continual threat. Health insurance is good, but the system is running huge
deficits. And gun violence? Spend a few minutes with the Marseille police and
you’ll see the gangland violence is dramatic. As far as income inequality—
that’s debatable. The upper classes are kept from getting too “upper,” but the
lower classes still live in decaying concrete block housing. Americans also
have about $14,000 more per year in disposable income compared to the French —
that’s after accounting for insurance, education, etc. The very poor do better
in France, but should we be optimizing society around the ultra-poor? Doing
that means that everyone else is worse off and the ultra poor are still pretty
poor. As far as transportation, spend some time in smaller French towns. You
better hope you have a car or you aren’t going anywhere. There is also the
high cost and oppressive regulation around starting a business.
Entrepreneurship in France is very difficult despite the word itself being
invented there. France rewards mediocrity.

------
quaquaqua1
And to think that the benefit of the education has not changed since when I
attended a similar school for a total cost of $25,000 per year just 10 years
ago.

~~~
mac01021
Surely UofChicago did not cost so little 10 years ago? A factor of 4 in ten
years does not seem realistic.

~~~
quaquaqua1
I attended the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which had a "total
cost of attendance" for out of state students at $40,000 in 2010.

For in state students it was only $15,000 per year.

I came from a "middle class" family and received "grants" from the school,
such that my cost of attendance per year averaged to $25,000.

Ever since I graduated, not a single person has ever asked me anything
regarding my education, and I currently make $93,000 per year as a front end
dev.

Strange times!!

~~~
barneygumble742
Same here. I paid roughly $5k/year for undergrad and about $10k/year for grad.
After graduation, only reason people ask me where I went to school was to see
where it ranked in college sports. Since my school barely registered, it's
easily dismissed. Even better for me since I don't follow sports.

What I did find more interesting is that it all depends on your work ethic and
how you carry yourself at the workplace. My lack of interest in sports has
hindered me at work slightly because I'm not part of certain groups at work.
I've come to find out that they all participate in fantasy sports and meet on
Saturdays to talk sports and a little bit of work gets involved. Usually I
wouldn't care but some important work-related decisions have come out of that.

~~~
quaquaqua1
Oh my god this. It's cancer. I had to learn all thse obscure facts about
things I care about just to have a baseline credibility with those types of
people.

It's a hazing ritual similar to data structures and algorithms, but one is
certainly more useful than the other.

~~~
leotaku
> It's a hazing ritual similar to data structures and algorithms

What do you mean by that? Genuinely curious.

~~~
quaquaqua1
Many of the problems that the median software developer is working on can be
acceptably solved with o(n^2) ideas which are the types of implementations
that the median developer can reasonably think of "on the spot" with little
prior training. Or the job is HTML CSS and basic js.

However many interviews demand many rounds of demonstrating o(logn) ideas
quickly, which I would argue takes x months of preparation, not x weeks or x
days.

I think its still very important to learn these structures, but the way they
are applied in brain teaser format is not effective at finding the best all
around candidate in terms of salary, general skills, sociability, iterative
ability, etc.

And that's just taking the process at face value. Some interviewers will take
this exercise to its extreme as a reason to deny you and make themselves feel
good by giving you genuinely obscure and difficult problems that even Linus
Torvalds and Guido admit they can't solve today in a reasonable time frame.

------
nixass
On the other hand, TUM (technical university in Munich) costs only 220 euro
per semester, and you're still enrolled into top25 university in the world.
The land of free..

~~~
rayiner
TUM has a $1.1 billion budget and 41,000 students. Chicago has a $2.6 billion
budget and 16,000 students.

~~~
jdsully
Could you elaborate a little on why that's relevant? Is the extra money
providing materially better education? Is it somehow impossible for Chicago to
lower their costs?

~~~
rayiner
It's a reference to the "land of the free" dig. The U.S. already spends
similar amounts of public money on higher education as Germany, etc. (As a
%-age of GDP). We don't have free universities, however, because our
universities spend vastly more money. That has benefits for students. In my
own experience, going to an expensive private law school was a much _nicer_
experience than going to a rigorous, but more spartan, public engineering
school for undergrad. There was much more academic support, hand-holding,
mental health services, beautiful facilities, etc. Even American community
colleges are really nice. (My mother in law works at a community college in
rural Oregon. It's got a fantastic, brand-new fitness facility with sweeping
views, etc.)

We can debate about whether that's a good use of money, or what spending
priorities should be. Maybe the right thing to do is cut costs, preserving an
equivalent education experience while cutting frills. Or, maybe Americans are
so rich it's reasonable for us to splurge on all of that stuff. But Americans
aren't _irrational._ It's not like Americans are just sitting here refusing to
adopt an approach that would get them the same college experience for vastly
less money.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
> We can debate about whether that's a good use of money...

It's not. I can get a gym membership for $10/month. And I'm not going to
college to get a degree in physical fitness.

And, your argument doesn't hold numerically. Say 440 euros/year = $500/year.
That's 1/200 the cost to the student of the University of Chicago. So Chicago
spends 5 times as much per student; it still looks insane from the
cost/benefit perspective.

------
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jimbob45
I see a lot of people telling everyone to just go to another university if the
one you want is too expensive or isn't up your standard in the degree you're
chasing. Remember that out-of-state tuition effectively bars students from
attending any university outside of their state and, if you're in a smallish
state like Oregon, your options can be pretty limited, particularly if you'd
like to stay in one geographical region.

~~~
Vysero
Not really, out of state tuition per term at Montana state university Bozeman
(go cats!) is only 6k/term.

~~~
panzagl
Don't know when you went, but Montana State is more than that now.

------
andutu
I'm a student attending UT Dallas. Not only am I in the honors programs there,
but I also have an AES scholarship which grants me a stipend of $3,000 per
semester.

I know several people who've gotten into prestigious institutions such as John
Hopkins who are going to UTD instead.

It's not like options don't exist. Yeah UTD isn't some brand name, but it's a
good starting point.

I blame universities to some degree for this problem, but I also blame
consumers. I was once a starry-eyed high school student who applied to the
likes of CMU and got rejected from all save UTD and A&M, with A&M basically
giving me nothing. People realize that these schools open doors through elite
social connections, more so than say UTD, but you can still network outside
these elite institutions, it'll just be a little harder.

------
gok
The key is in the subtitle:

> But fewer students are paying the full tuition

Any seller who can legally charge different prices based on means is under
impossibly strong pressure to exercise that power. Universities do this by
having "full" tuition rates that almost no one pays.

------
bluetidepro
Is University of Chicago even that good? Genuinely curious, as I know nothing
about it. I live here in Chicago, and feel like I never hear about it,
compared to say Northwestern or like UIC (University of Illinois at Chicago).
Why would anyone ever pay that much for college yearly, if it wasn't like the
#1 school, by a landslide, in the US?

EDIT: I guess it is good? haha The more you know. Just surprising that I've
been here in Chicago for almost 10 years now, and feel like I never hear about
it compared to other colleges in the city. Maybe it's cause they aren't
downtown or something? ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
sorenn111
From US News, its #6 in national rankings so its pretty good. But the way the
economy is structured around knowledge work and with the effect of credential
signalling, our society is convinced of the need to get into the best school
possible. This belief could be utter bullshit, have some truth (top rated
schools teach better), or be somewhere in between.

What is probably very true is that getting into a top school is a signal that
you did very well in the competition of getting into a good school. And
employers absolutely pay attention to where you went.

so getting into a good school becomes a societal self fulfilling prophecy in
terms of importance.

~~~
Merrill
According to US News, University of Chicago is "Unranked in Best Engineering
Schools". [https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-
engineering...](https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-engineering-
schools/university-of-chicago-02453)

The high school student needs to ask the question, "where is the best place to
get a undergraduate degree in a specific field"? Generic rankings, especially
ones that are heavily influenced by the university's research record, are
pretty useless for undergraduate education quality.

~~~
OrangeMango
The University of Chicago doesn't have an engineering school, per say.

They recently started a "School of Molecular Engineering" with a large
donation from the governor of Illinois. But that is certainly not a general
engineering school and isn't going to be, so it will never show up in these
kind of ratings.

> Our program was established as the Institute for Molecular Engineering in
> 2011 by the University in partnership with Argonne National Laboratory. In
> 2019, in recognition of our success, impact and expansion, and the support
> of the Pritzker Foundation, the institute was elevated to the Pritzker
> School of Molecular Engineering—the first school in the nation dedicated to
> this emerging field.

> At PME, our educational outreach initiatives begin with K-12 students. We
> offer youth-focused events, internships, and workshops throughout the year,
> from teaching molecular engineering fundamentals to extracting DNA from
> bananas. We also have a partnership with City Colleges of Chicago. The
> multi-year program connects city college students interested in STEM fields
> with our faculty and labs, with the goal of helping more students transfer
> into four-year STEM degree programs.

[https://pme.uchicago.edu/about/](https://pme.uchicago.edu/about/)

~~~
Merrill
They do seem to have a decent CS grad school program. They are tied for 30th
with 6 other universities in US News. [https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-
schools/top-science-sch...](https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-
science-schools/computer-science-rankings)

But Urbana-Champaign is 5th and should be somewhat less expensive.

~~~
OldHand2018
UChicago is respectable, sure. But they also host the Toyota Technical
Institute:

> TTIC offers a graduate program leading to a doctorate in computer science,
> and is currently focusing primarily on theoretical computer science
> (algorithms and complexity), applications of machine learning (computational
> biology, computer vision, natural language processing, robotics, and
> speech), and scientific computing (including numerical analysis, numerical
> optimization, and signal processing).

> Both regular and research faculty receive endowment-provided research
> funding sufficient for equipment and normal academic travel. Research
> faculty are not expected to raise external funding. However, regular faculty
> are expected to eventually raise their summer salary and to support their
> students with external funding.

> Research faculty are in non-tenure track positions with no teaching
> requirements. This is similar to a postdoctoral fellowship, but comes with
> endowment-provided independent research funding. Regular faculty are
> expected to teach only one quarter per year.

> TTIC is located in Hyde Park on the University of Chicago campus and has a
> close affiliation with the University of Chicago Computer Science
> Department. An agreement between the University of Chicago and TTIC allows
> cross-listing of computer science course offerings between the two
> institutions, providing students from each institution the opportunity to
> register in the others courses. Faculty and students enjoy full privileges
> of the University library system, athletic facilities and other services.

[https://www.ttic.edu/about/](https://www.ttic.edu/about/)

------
agent008t
How can these universities be so expensive, if you can instead go to a just-
as-good university in the UK for a fraction of the cost, even as a foreign
student? Why does anyone agree to pay such fees?

~~~
adrr
You can attend a public university in the US for a fraction of the cost. UCLA
is $12,000 a year for tuition. You can also do two years at a community
college which costs almost nothing like $50 a credit and transfer to a 4 year
university for the the remaining two years.

~~~
interlocutor
If you add room and board UCLA is $65,000 for out-of-state students:
[http://www.admission.ucla.edu/Prospect/budget.htm](http://www.admission.ucla.edu/Prospect/budget.htm)
Compare that to $74,000 for Stanford. Suddenly Stanford looks not so bad!
[https://financialaid.stanford.edu/undergrad/budget/index.htm...](https://financialaid.stanford.edu/undergrad/budget/index.html)

------
ChaosDegenerate
Graduating in Europe with Master's that cost me nothing, I always feel so bad
thinking about the debt my coworkers who studied in the US have to repay.

It's just so wrong and stupid. On top of that I can always go back "home" to
get free healthcare too.

US is (at times) so much better when you are an immigrant.

And then so many (who actually have student loans to repay and expensive
healthcare to pay for) feel sorry for me because of discrimination (perceived
only by them!)

~~~
fooker
Same here, got free education in my home country, upto a Masters. Came to the
US for a PhD, also free (+ a small stipend and internships). I just don't see
undergrad education here being a good deal.

------
alkonaut
I can’t imagine paying $100k even for a 4- or 5 year degree. My student loans
(zero tuition, only food/rent/books) was $35k for 5 years I think. I have paid
over $200/month for 15 years and I’ll be done paying it back this year. I just
can’t even imagine my calculation if the loan had been 10x. My US paycheck
would certainly be bigger, but I still fail to see how it could be a good
investment.

~~~
Kalium
Chicago is one of the private schools where the sticker price is essentially
fictional. There may be a small number of students each year from wealthy
families who pay that, but I'm reasonably sure it's nowhere near what the
average student actually pays.

------
svanwaa
The liberal arts college my wife teaches at recently introduced a more
"transparent" tuition pricing scheme. Advertised price $18,600 down from
$38,600! [https://news.central.edu/2019/09/central-announces-new-
tuiti...](https://news.central.edu/2019/09/central-announces-new-tuition/)

------
mister_hn
I still fail to understand why in US the university is so expensive, compared
to 99% of universities in Europe. Not even private universities in Europe are
so expensive like there, plus there are countries where university is free
(e.g. Germany).

Is the American Dream just the one who wants their kids don't go to university
because it's so much expensive?

The boomer generation has really broken it. Imagine now that millennials could
not send their kids to colleges because of the high tuition fee, connected to
low salaries. It's a system that has its destiny doomed and that a day will
collapse badly

------
j_m_b
Are we ready to admit that government-backed, non-defaultable student loans
are a bad idea?

------
Communitivity
Not Harvard, not Yale, not MIT, not Cornell...but U of Chicago? Why would they
be able to charge so much more than the other big name schools? It may very
well be they have a specialty they are the best in that I'm not aware of.

Also, if you are in Maryland take advantage of the MD program that lets you
pay your kids college while they're in high school and lock in the college
price as of when you enroll in the program. At the average 8% rate of college
price increases you could save around %57 of the money you'd pay otherwise.

------
prirun
This comment stood out:

"It also manages a staff that receives more than $1 billion in salary, $230
million of which is for its roughly 1,350 instructional staff and faculty,
according to federal data for 2017-18. Producing and employing Nobel laureates
does not come cheap."

In other words, only 25% of expense is for instructional staff and faculty,
while 75% is not. I'd love to know how much of the $750M salary goes to
administrative execs who don't actual _do_ anything.

------
Carioca
At what point doesn't it just become feasible to hire a full-time tutor?

~~~
Someone1234
The point of college is a name and certificate. If it was about actual
education and learning, we'd see online classes with in-person exams in the
forefront.

So, never? A tutor cannot give you a magic piece of "job qualification" paper.

------
AcerbicZero
The vast majority of jobs/careers/professions do not require sitting in a
classroom for 4 years to learn enough to do them. Even less require sitting in
an extremely expensive classroom for 4 years.

At the same time learning has never been more accessible. I can study Python,
mechanical engineering, calculus, aviation ground school, etc all without
leaving the house if I wanted. So how does a commodity like education, which
is basically free for the people who want to learn, increase in price?

~~~
munificent
You're assuming the entire point of college is to make you a worker. But a
lberal arts education has always been about making you a complete _human_. If
nothing else, it's important for citizens to be well-rounded enough to be
informed voters.

~~~
comicjk
If some more education is needed to make people informed voters, maybe we
should add a couple more years to the end of high school. Effectively,
community college for all. After all, we expect everyone to be a voter, not
just those who go to college.

------
phkahler
Let's assume a full time student taking 4 courses at a time. A professor might
(should) be able to teach 4 classes. I'm not sure how much profs make, but
let's assume between 1 and 3 students could pay them. Now where does the money
from all the other students in the classes go? Sure, there's admin overhead,
room costs, etc, but that stuff is hopefully less than the prof costs. So 6
students max to cover costs for a class. Where does the money go from all the
others?

~~~
ohazi
> Sure, there's admin overhead, room costs, etc, but that stuff is hopefully
> less than the prof costs.

Not by a long shot.

------
AtlasBarfed
They don't even have big time athletics and facilites, do they?

And probably a huge endowment that if properly applied would remove any need
of tuition.

------
duxup
>But fewer students are paying the full tuition.

Is anyone paying the sticker price and if so what is their financial state /
considerations?

~~~
interlocutor
If you work for FAANG your kids have to pay full tuition because scholarships
vanish when you have $250K or more in annual income.

------
contingencies
A few years ago an American friend told me the cost of his masters at Colombia
was about USD$180K for 1 year, taking all expenses in to consideration.
Journalism.... insane... no way that money is coming back without a pivot to
public policy!

------
every
No degree, no matter how gold-plated, is worth $400K. Go to a community
college, get a degree in accounting or whatever and spend the rest of your
life laughing at the idiots still paying off their tuition debt...

------
bluedino
Is there any data on what % of student loans are spent on things other than
tuition? You have things that could be school-related like laptops but then
you have kids paying credit cards with student loan money.

------
adipandas
Education should not be this expensive. If at all, it can be competitive. But
it should be available and affordable to all. U of Chicago is not a best place
to be in.

------
IronWolve
How does a 400k degree compare to a state ran online degree for 24k?
[http://www.wgu.edu](http://www.wgu.edu) as an example.

------
kingkawn
High tuition costs and loan burdens were and are an integral part of the de-
radicalization of American college students.

------
geogra4
It's one thing for private universities to cost so much, but there needs to be
a tuition free public option.

~~~
dredmorbius
That exists to some extent in 26 states, though generally at the community
college (associates degree, 2 year) level:

[https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-
co...](https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-
college/articles/2018-02-01/these-states-offer-tuition-free-college-programs)

~~~
geogra4
I've lived in many states in my life and none of them has had that so this is
news to me. Still should be some kind of national program I think.

------
oliwarner
But why? Why does it cost as much as a full time teacher to get extremely part
time access to university faculty?

This stinks.

------
tanilama
How come it can be this expensive? Can't see how a degree would worth 400k
seriously

------
alpineidyll3
Ouch! The ole Alma mater ain't what she used to be.

------
gigatexal
A year?! Sheesh. Things are getting out of control.

------
pojntfx
Why not just do it like any other developed country on earth, make the
universities public and drop tuition altogether. Works very well here in
Germany.

~~~
sgregnt
Compared to USA Germany is a relatively poor, so it doesn't work, you see.

------
fortran77
Why not!? If our next president will just wipe out student debt--without
ending government backed loans--why not charge $1MM/year?

~~~
asdfman123
I guess you're being downvoted for your sarcasm but I do think a giant uneven
payoff is a bad idea and cheap populism. Part of the reason the price keeps
going up is the ready availability of money via student loans.

------
randyrand
higher stocker price and more discounts + aid. It’s the clothing store pricing
model.

