
A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students - jimmyjim
http://www.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/o37te/smart_but_unmotivated_in_school_thoughtful_post/
======
chucknthem
Slightly off topic, but I'm sick of post titles that start with "A Redditor's
...". A title like that is just going to encourage comments and culture from
reddit which is usually inappropriate here. "Redditors" are mostly normal
people, "An insightful message for discouraged students" would have been a
perfectly good title to this.

~~~
levesque
Also, don't post a link to a post containing the link.

~~~
rhino42
In this case, I disagree. Posting to that location lets us easily see the
comments made on that posting (instead of just the replies to the comment
being linked to)

~~~
Edootjuh
The comments on /r/bestof links are usually about the fact that it was posted
in /r/bestof, rather than about the subject itself. And if they are about the
comment itself, it's really just because the comment itself already had too
many replies for a new comment to be noticed.

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martincmartin
There's research behind this too. The book NurtureShock has a chapter on
telling kids "you're smart" vs. "you worked hard." There was even some HN
discussion on it. Basically, when you attribute your kids accomplishments to
their being smart, they kind of freeze up when they get a problem they can't
handle. But when you attribute it to hard work, they work harder to figure it
out. There are a series of fascinating experiments that bare this out.

For people into parenting books, I highly recommend NurtureShock. It's about
the only parenting book I've found based on actual scientific research, as
opposed to being somebody's opinion.

~~~
DavidChouinard
Do you have a link/paper ont his? Legitimately curious.

~~~
martincmartin
Apparently, the chapter of the book also appeared in New York magazine,
although I can't find the reference so I don't know which issue.

You can always read some excerpts on Google Books or Amazon, it's chapter 1 of
NurtureShock.

~~~
jonnycowboy
You can find the article here: <http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/>

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jimmyjim
Perhaps I should rather have linked directly to the post:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/confession/comments/nxdzz/im_not_as_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/confession/comments/nxdzz/im_not_as_smart_as_i_thought_i_was/c3d91jl)

Anyway, I want to emphasize that while his response was specifically to some
guy in MIT feeling down, his words are applicable for any of us.

~~~
rsanchez1
Indeed, I really liked this post. Everyone hears how hard MIT is, but then
everyone sees how 97% pass, so you think these must be some geniuses that get
in who transcend "normal" folk like us. They're just normal people who might
not have been the smartest at school, but know when they're not motivated and
how to look for help and get motivated. It's a good message for any student.

~~~
rhino42
This. My brother goes to MIT and he is precisely life-sized. He just works
very hard. Let me also comment that the difference on starting salary at MIT
is not so different from that of top five schools. Coming from one of those
schools and knowing the students there, I believe that your degree of success
is more strongly linked to your work effort and the experiences you seek,
compared to the school you went to.

------
nyellin
I have another message for struggling students: Go outside and get some fresh
air; exercise; smile. It's only a grade.

I have experienced first-hand the shock of discovering just how hard
university is, but pushing yourself harder and harder until you break is _not_
the answer. You need to be smarter about how you work, you need to develop
proper study habits, and you need to get over your fear of asking for help.
But at the end of the day, grades are just grades. Once you finish university
and get your first job, none of this will matter anymore.

University is far harder than programming jobs, so don't judge yourself too
harshly for struggling. Many things are more important in life. Remember to
enjoy the most intense learning experience you will ever experience, and don't
forget to look after your own health.

------
JerusaEnt
I agree with him when he says that it is mostly how hard you work, dedication,
and ambition. But wouldn't we just be fooling ourselves when we say it's not
genetic? Maybe I'm wrong but, there are such things as kids that knowledge
comes easier to, and kids that they simply can't understand something.

Also, for example, a kid with ADHD is woefully behind on the "being able to
sit and work" ability. I think it's nice that we say "everyone is equal and
let's hold hands" But I personally don't understand that.

~~~
moultano
That's one of those facts that is probably true, but not useful (at least to
an individual plotting their own course.) If you feel stupid, what's the more
likely thing? That you are up against a fundamental barrier, or that you
haven't worked hard enough? What's the better outcome, that you knuckle down
or give up?

Knowing the genetic basis for intelligence is kinda like knowing about obscure
diseases. When you have the sniffles, it's probably just a cold, not lupus.
When you're finding something beyond your grasp, you're probably not working
hard enough, or working smart enough.

Sure, if you're a policy maker allocating budgets and looking at the
population in aggregate, it makes sense to have a deep understanding of all
the problems that may not be fixable. But if you're deciding what to do with
yourself, why give yourself the excuse?

~~~
Klinky
Don't you like logic & understanding? I am not sure why anyone here would
promote an ignorance is bliss kind of attitude when it comes to mental or
learning disorders. This reeks of the military's inability to accept PTSD as a
real condition, ostracizing those who claim they have it as being weak or
lazy. Does the hacker/geek crowd have the same trouble accepting learning
disabilities as a valid form of mental illness?

~~~
ekm2
Appeals to genetics are usually made by the successful to convince the
unsuccessful that their success was inevitable.By doing that they help ward
off potential competitors.

~~~
Klinky
I really haven't heard any successful startup founder say "My genetic make-up
made my project successful".

The truth is genetics do matter if for no other reason than the fact that who
your parents are will greatly determine your opportunities later in life by
the fact that they control the country you're born in. Not to mention that
your family's mental or physical health history can have a great impact on you
as well. If your family has a history of depression, anxiety, attention
deficit, dyslexia or substance abuse you are indeed at higher risk of
developing those same issues later in life. Also families with those issues
can have a greater struggle creating a nurturing environment to break free
from the cycle of dysfunction.

I feel that people ignoring the genetic or parental factor are ignoring
science & using that ignorance as an excuse to call people lazy so that they
feel more in control of their situation despite a considerable amount of their
success having nothing to do with their own effort or ingenuity.

My appeal isn't to give people a reason to be lazy, but to admit that we don't
know how the brain learns or re-learns things. A person's life my be an
eternal struggle until they find help that allows them to escape whatever
disease they are dealing with. Ignoring those diseases does not help the
person & merely casting them off as lazy or needing to try harder is not a
valid remedy.

~~~
ekm2
"My appeal isn't to give people a reason to be lazy, but to admit that we
don't know how the brain learns or re-learns things." If we dont know how the
brain learns why should we hurriedly conclude that it is genetic and fixed.Why
cant we adopt an attitude that will make us better and work our butts off?

~~~
Klinky
_Why cant we adopt an attitude that will make us better and work our butts
off?_

Because the point of a learning disability is that the person is working their
butt off already but still struggling.

It's like having two people try to catch a pig, but one of those pigs is
greased. If you tell both participants to use exactly the same effort to catch
the pig, the person who has to get the greased pig will probably fail. The
person with the greased pig may even try harder than the other person yet
still fail to catch the pig.

There isn't an easy solution to mental illness or learning disorders. Again, I
am not saying that we should tell people to not try hard, I am just saying
that people shouldn't go around saying learning disabilities are an excuse for
the lazy or those who don't like to work their butts off.

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rglover
That advice was great, not only for younger students, but for those who have
completed university (read: older) as well. Hands down, my favorite part of
the piece was:

 _"smart" is really just a way of saying "has invested so much time and sweat
that you make it look effortless."_

All of the people that I truly admire (who subsequently I consider to be
"smart") fall directly under this guise. They took the time and effort to
learn how to be who they are. It's a simple idea, sure, but when it's really
taken to heart it can change your entire outlook on things.

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lhnz
I wanted to cry, somebody replied: "if you could share us some of those
skills."

If it was possible we would and we could all just sit back and crib each
other's notes on life. But this has to come from within you. You cannot share
willpower, dedication and ambition.

There's nothing else to it: it's not as if the knowledge isn't on the internet
or in books for cheap...

You can mould yourself a more conscientious personality through your own
ambition and the willpower you had to start with.

~~~
jdc
But it did not come from within Inri; it seems rather clear that the author
would have flunked out without R.'s coaching.

~~~
runjake
Nearly every epiphany comes with the help of other people -- either by direct
instruction or observation.

------
theneb
This line of thought very much touches on how students are badly taught, I
doubt MIT are as bad as where I studied which had the scribe lecturing
approach.

Eric Mazur advocates the peer instruction method of lecturing
(<http://mazur.harvard.edu/research/detailspage.php?rowid=8>)

Students should always be at the lecture with the content in advance to
discuss in some form such as peer instruction. My University didn't even
release a reading list of Mathematical or Computer Science material prior to
the course beginning.

------
leilavc
For anybody looking for solid tips on how to apply this attitude to their
academics, I've found Cal Newport's blog* an invaluable resource. It's been
linked to here before, mainly for its recent posts on 'deliberate practice'
versus 'flow', but he also describes many strategies and tactics that high-
scoring students at Ivy League-level universities use. They've helped me
invaluably, and I find it a real pity that more students don't know about this
writing.

[*] <http://calnewport.com/blog/>

~~~
b_emery
I'm also a huge fan of that blog. This post is a favorite:

[http://calnewport.com/blog/2008/11/25/case-study-how-i-
got-t...](http://calnewport.com/blog/2008/11/25/case-study-how-i-got-the-
highest-grade-in-my-discrete-math-class/)

It redefined for me what it means to understand math.

~~~
ctchocula
Thanks for sharing! I enjoyed reading how clearly and precisely he showed a
way to master a difficult subject.

The white printer paper reminded me of that "end artificial scarcity" article.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3396669>

------
matwood
Quite literally this is why I love climbing mountains alone, particularly
14ers. Every time I climb one I go through a range of emotions over the 5-7
hours it takes to reach the summit and back.

When I start there is excitement as I see the peak in the distance. Then as I
tire comes doubt and the fight with myself about turning around because no one
would know, except me of course. The key is to never stop pushing forward.
There often comes a point, especially on a new challenging mountain, where all
I want to do is turn around. Instead I just focus on the next step in front of
me. Step, breath, step, breath,... Then when I finally reach the top, the view
is of course beautiful, but the real reward is looking back at the trail I
followed and thinking that's impossible yet here I am.

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tlear
Great post, this happened to me in high school I got into a specialized school
after being just above mediocre at a normal school. This was math/physics
school in Ukraine that was basically one of 2-3 top schools in the country
(whatever that means). First semester my usual mark in my math was 0/12. They
only kept me because I was one of the best in programming and physics courses.
Took me 5 month till I could solve one of 2 problems that they used for tests
(3 hours 2 problems).

In a way it was maybe too early, in university everything was too easy (I did
not go to a top school because I had trouble getting a high enough TOEFL score
and wanted to start as early as I could). It took failure in graduate school,
then few years of wasted 9-5 code monkey work to get me to see the light
again.

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sunchild
For me, this read like a manifesto for making your hamster wheel spin as fast
as the other hamsters. The OP's core message (i.e., that intelligence is not
in-born, but is earned by self-discipline and hard work) seemed very myopic to
me, and bound up in the self-congratulatory world of academia. It starts from
a position that rests on conclusions about the value of formal education that
are no longer dogma for me.

At first, I felt depressed after reading it and all the fawning responses to
it. Then, I remembered this parable about how knowledge comes from people, not
places:

> "At a gathering of divines, the Mullah was seated right at the end of the
> room, farthest from the place of honor. He began to tell jokes, and soon
> people were crowded around him, laughing and listening. Nobody was taking
> any notice of the greybeard who was giving a learned discourse. When he
> could no longer hear himself speak, the president of the assembly roared
> out: ‘You must be silent! Nobody may talk unless he sits where the Chief
> sits." "I don’t know how you see it," said the Mullah, "but it seems to me
> that where I sit is where the Chief sits."

After recalling this parable, I realized that I had initially misunderstood
the OP's insight. His message was really the same as the Mullah's in many
ways.

~~~
dasil003
I'm not following your train of thought here. It seems like you have serious
issues with academia, which is fine. But what does the assertion that
intelligence and ability is honed by hard work and practice vs innate talent
have to do with academic dogma? This is equally applicable to all human
endeavor.

~~~
sunchild
The debate about intelligence being a trait of nature vs. nurture is an
academic debate, and not the takeaway here.

What I took away from OP's story is that his friend "R" was a more useful
source of lasting wisdom than his MIT instructors. Why? Because "R" had
cultivated an air of confidence, charisma, and credibility. How "R" achieved
this wisdom himself is a red herring.

P.S. This also isn't about my gripes with academia. I have no problem with
people squandering their time and money and lives on any variety of "rat
race", including the various diversions that people consider to be an
education. As I said, you have to "taste" for yourself to truly understand. I
have no agenda to change anyone's mind with words. I was just sharing my own
revelation about the OP's message.

Allow me to further muddy the waters with another Nasrudin parable:

An opinionated and small-minded cleric was lecturing the people in the
teahouse where Nasrudin spent so much of his time.

As the hours went by, Nasrudin realized how this man’s thoughts were running
in patterns, how he was a victim of vanity and pride, how minor points of
unrealistic intellectualism for its own sake were magnified by him and applied
to every situation.

Subject after subject was discussed, and every time the intellectual cited
books and precedents, false analogies and extraordinary presumptions without
intuitive reality.

At length he produced a book which he had written, and Nasrudin stretched his
hand forth to see it, because he was the only literate man present.

Holding it in front of his eyes, Nasrudin turned page after page, while the
assembly looked on. After several minutes the itinerant cleric began to
fidget. Then he could not contain himself any longer. ‘You are holding my book
upside down!’ he screamed.

‘I know,’ said Nasrudin, ‘Since it is one of the archetypes which seems to
have produced you, it seems to be the only sensible thing to do, if one is to
learn from it.’

(With credit to Idries Shah, Octagon Press)

~~~
dasil003
I'm intrigued by your ideas, but you're speaking in riddles.

A con man also cultivates confidence, charisma and credibility. That doesn't
make him a source of lasting wisdom.

In any case, if you admire someone as a mentor, why would their path to
success be a red herring? Wouldn't you naturally be curious about how they got
where they are?

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tpatke
I wonder how this relates to the "entrepreneurial selection process".

According to PG [1]:

\- hard work is necessary but insufficient

\- entrepreneurs either have a very high probability of success or "epsilon".

\- it is easy to know (or find out) what group you are in.

PG makes a strong argument...but then, so does this guy from MIT. Maybe they
are talking about different things? Is intelligence more important for a
startup founder then it is for a kid at MIT?

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3392049>

~~~
mikedmiked
The exact "work you need to do" is pretty much given to you when you do a
degree. If you work hard on it and complete it all then it is hard not to
succeed.

When doing a start-up or in the "real world" you can easily fill up time with
work which is not actually directing you towards your ultimate goal(s).

~~~
jmilloy
When you're in school, it often doesn't _seem_ like the work is given to you.
I remember knowing this, and I remember when it switched over for me in
different subjects or different contexts. I'm not sure that start up world or
"real world" is any different, there are just new (more difficult) contexts
which can start out seeming mysterious but can become routine (often in
retrospect).

------
samikc
This post is an eye opener, true and engaging. You can co-relate to the maths
example with anything hard. You have give it time. I had a math book in school
where it said, "If you love mathematics it will love you back." Actually if
you look at it, for competency in any topic you have to work with it. You will
eventually get it, if you are ready to work hard.

It may take some time but what the hell if you really want to understand
something you got a give everything to it.

------
rcamera
That post is very good, but it could delve more on how to motivate oneself. I
am therefor cross-posting my own post here, trying to add some more value to
this thread. First, a disclaimer, this will probably sound too abstract and
not a guide on motivating yourself to study, well, it's true, this is a
comment on how to motivate yourself through your entire life, and studying is
usually a big part of it.

I've met very motivated people in my life, many of which are creating amazing
things and companies. The first characteristic you can see in all these people
is that they all have a well defined end goal. That's the first thing everyone
should look for when motivating themselves, finding an end goal. This is
essentially a long term goal, not short term ones. It must be a single goal,
not a set of goals, else you will loose focus. I can hear you thinking
already, "but I want to do so much", but that's the beauty of this end goal,
it can be broad enough to cover all your dreams. This is the hardest question
to answer ("what's my purpose in this life?"), took me 15 years (from the day
I started to think about this, when I was a kid) to decide on what I wanted to
do with my life, but the more life experience you have, the easier it is to
decide upon it. When deciding on this, make sure you don't confuse the end
with the means to reach it, so don't choose a specific goal such as become a
doctor, or become the president of your country. Do you want to be a doctor,
or do you want to actually save lives? Do you want to be the president, or do
you want to build a better country/world? A tip that can help you with not
confusing the end with the means is: state your end goal in 3 words or less. I
can state mine in 2.

The second characteristic motivated people have is confidence. They are
usually pretty confident they can reach their end goal. This is one of the
reasons people have very different goals. Many would say that making the world
better is a good goal, but how many would say they got the confidence to do
it? If you don't have the confidence, build it. A little example from my own
experience: when a kid I was scared of skating down a big half-pipe from a
park we used to go to. At that time, my goal was quite simple, have fun and
skate better than my friends, but I didn't really have the confidence to
accept the challenge of skating down that huge half-pipe. I built up my
confidence by going down smaller ones (even broke an arm when doing that, but
it didn't stop me, I learned from my mistake and started using gloves) until
one day I was confident enough to try going down the large one, and so I did.
That's how you build confidence.

Lastly, after choosing your goals and building the confidence to do it, you
need to decide on what way to take. For any goal, there are a wide choice of
ways you can take to move towards them. Some ways are easier than others, some
are more interesting, some are very challenging. This is what will define your
short and mid term goals. Think of them as stepping stones so you can reach
the end goal. Let's go back to one of our examples, you want to save lives.
You can be a doctor and save lives, you can be a scientist, finding cures to
diseases in a lab and save lives, you can be a fireman and save lives or even
be an investor in nanotechnology labs and save lives. Which way is more
appealing to you? Let's continue, you decided that by being a doctor you will
save lives. First of all, what kind of doctor do you want to be? A
cardiologist? A neurosurgeon? An E.R. doctor? Well, do you need to make that
decision now? Not really, you can choose it while you are at college, so let's
move on. Oh, right, you must enter college and graduate before becoming a
doctor. Uhm, do you want to enter the best college you can? Damn, we need to
study for the SAT then (I ain't American, not really sure how college
admissions really work). Anyway, this is how you decide on the way. You state
your end goal and work backwards from the longest term goal to the shortest
one. That's how you decide on what means you will use to reach your end goal.

Anyway, after deciding on all that, that's how you will be motivated to study
for that algebra exam, or to pay attention at that physics class from that
boring teacher at 6pm on a Friday. A couple important notes, I highly suggest
you to never share your end goal with your peers. This usually undermines your
confidence, and therefor, your motivation. Secondly, your goal, once defined
shouldn't change. If it changes, it just mean you haven't found yours yet.
What can change, and should change (due to changes in environment) are the
means you choose to take. The means can always change, but they should always
be moving you towards the end. An example, your country enters in war. This is
highly disruptive to everyone's lives and this will very likely affect on the
means you will choose to reach your goal, but shouldn't change your end goal.

------
mynameishere
_The more I learned the more I realized that the bulk of his intelligence and
his performance just came from study and practice_

Bullshit. When a 3rd grader masters differential calculus it is almost
entirely hard-core innate intelligence combined with an innate ability to
concentrate. No normal 3rd grade has the ability to study at that level.
People who succeed often want to think it was entirely their hard work, and
that lucky genes had no real influence.

Think about it.

If you take someone of average intelligence, he could spend his entire life,
sweating and studying like crazy every day, and not get through MIT. Even Bill
Gates went from Theory to Applied math at Harvard when he realized how
difficult it was. If you think he isn't a determined, hard-working person,
well... The truth is, he just didn't have the freakish IQ required for the
work.

~~~
kingatomic
I strongly doubt that the writer meant it to be taken literally that R.R. had
mastered DiffEQs in 3rd grade.

~~~
mynameishere
There are kids at that level at that age: No exaggeration. They are incredibly
rare on earth, but when you get to MIT, they become much less rare.

------
BadassFractal
What are some takeaways that us people in the industry can have from this?
Should we be working harder? Should we be working smarter?

~~~
amorphid
Work as hard as you can, learn your own strengths and limitations, learn to
enjoy your successes without getting lazy, and struggle to understand
something just enough so you can ask questions about does and doesn't work.

------
thewisedude
Genius: one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration : Thomas Edison

------
Tichy
What are good ways to learn how to study, though?

------
vijayr
nice post. Can anyone share the tools/hacks that he is talking about? what
worked for you, and what didn't?

~~~
nas
We are three levels removed from the original post. This all seems very meta.
;-)

Anyhow, I don't have much for tips. I was like the OP, too confident from my
own good and was almost crushed by a college engineering program.

I think my main problem is I often accomplish things by with intense fits of
work. It's easy to underestimate the effectiveness of the slow-and-steady
approach. I'm still working on improving with that.

Regarding college, my advice is go to class, do the reading, do the
assignments. If you can find a group to study and do homework with, that
helps. I'd also recommend reading "Getting Things Done". The power of
identifying the next task for a project is truly amazing and the "get it out
of your head" ready does reduce stress.

------
adnam
Gosh, so true! I am the 3% :)

------
verroq
>Reddit is down.

Perfect, maybe they'll actually get studying done.

