
ECHELON was used for industrial espionage (European Commission report) - _ntka
http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm#10
======
contingencies
When discussing government signals intelligence programs with the average
person, the industrial espionage point is often a very good one with which to
sway skeptics who consider individual privacy concerns and totalitarianism-
potential too ephemeral to take as serious threats.

It is unfortunate, though, that the subject is generally, as within the EU
report document, framed within a nationalist perspective - nationalism itself
being something of a time-honoured trap for the same class of victim.

My most favoured quote of late is Einstein's description of nationalism: _an
infantile disease; the measles of humanity_. Our generation's challenge is to
conquer this.

~~~
fchollet
Nationalism is one of these archaic concepts that should have no place in
modern society. Interestingly, I found the USA to be the most nationalist 1st-
world country there is. By far.

And in the case at hand, it doesn't help that the US government seems to
consider it fair game to have all data of foreign users of US web services
handed out to them, in secret and without the users having a say in this.

~~~
einhverfr
> Nationalism is one of these archaic concepts that should have no place in
> modern society.

Why, exactly? Without nationalism how can there be any tradition of local
governance? And without that how can local culture survive? Or is your point
hat local culture _shouldn 't_ survive and that the Hopi child should be
governed by the same cultural norms as the Swedish?

~~~
Vivtek
This is incoherent, unless you equate culture with nation.

Nationalism says that people in your nation are _special_ , that, in effect,
rights pertain to them that are not granted to other nations - it is
incompatible with morality.

On your Hopi/Swedish point, the question here is whether the Hopi child
_deserves_ government by the same standards and access to the same
opportunities as the Swede. Yes. Yes, she does.

~~~
dnautics
it's an oppressive point that every human requires the same sort of government
to achieve maximal justice. It is, the very argument that the US has proffered
to engage in interventionary invasions of the Maghreb - "we're bringing them
democracy".

~~~
Vivtek
No, in fact, that's not at all what I said. I said every human should be
accorded the same _rights and opportunities_ , which my government shamefully
betrays every day.

If anything, the worst crime of which history will accuse America is of taking
excellent stated ideals and subverting them for the purpose of oppression -
thus discrediting the original excellent ideals.

~~~
dnautics
but I don't think that America really subverts them for the purpose of
oppression. The US is perfectly capable of oppressing without appealing to
those ideas (indian wars; japanese internment). I actually think the US means
it (and thinks that it can) deliver democracy without being oppressive.

Hanlon's razor. But the difference here is, in this case it is impossible to
not be incompetent. Just as it is impossible to deliver what you intend for
the world without being incompetent in the sense of being 'non-oppressive'.

------
cromwellian
The Lernout and Hauspie stuff sounds like bullshit. This was a company run by
fraudsters that dicked over and ripped off the founders of Dragon Systems.
They acquired many US speech technology firms in their run up, some that
predated L&H, so the idea that the NSA stole US developed and acquired tech in
a buyout to advantage American companies sounds bogus.

The Airbus thing rings true, but industrial espionage for L&H tech? Who'd want
it? It was hardly a strategic technology unlike Aerospace. At best, the NSA
themselves might like to use it for transcribing calls, but given the tons and
tons of open academic research on speech, it just sounds like the typical IP
bullshit of firms accusing other firms of "stealing" algorithms because
someone else independently developed something similar.

Next the French will be claiming the NSA is stealing important tech from
DailyMotion.

~~~
Zigurd
I did not see L&H mentioned, but L&H did end up owning Dragon Systems on the
basis of a valuation built on fraud. Dragon Systems did quite a bit of
government work, and it's a good bet much of it was for the NSA. The Dragon
Jim and Janet Baker built really was a tech "crown jewel."

Subsequently ScanSoft (now called Nuance) ended up owning the wreckage of L&H,
and Dragon's assets are back in US hands.

So that example has some basis in national security issues.

~~~
cromwellian
True, but how can it be nationalistic industrial espionage when the technology
itself was an American technology already, not a Belgian developed one?

~~~
Zigurd
That's my point: It's not a very vivid example of industrial espionage if the
only consequence was that ScanSoft bought L&H assets.

There are, however other examples that make it difficult to not be the pot
calling the Chinese kettle black.

------
fchollet
Also, from Wikipedia:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON)

 _British journalist Duncan Campbell and New Zealand journalist Nicky Hager
asserted in the 1990s that the United States was exploiting ECHELON traffic
for industrial espionage, rather than military and diplomatic purposes.[10]
Examples alleged by the journalists include the gear-less wind turbine
technology designed by the German firm Enercon[6][11] and the speech
technology developed by the Belgian firm Lernout & Hauspie.[12] An article in
the US newspaper Baltimore Sun reported in 1995 that European aerospace
company Airbus lost a $6 billion contract with Saudi Arabia in 1994 after the
US National Security Agency reported that Airbus officials had been bribing
Saudi officials to secure the contract.[13][14] In 2001 the Temporary
Committee on the ECHELON Interception System recommended to the European
Parliament that citizens of member states routinely use cryptography in their
communications to protect their privacy, because economic espionage with
ECHELON has been conducted by the US intelligence agencies.[6]_

~~~
hoggle
I know it's only movies and TV but these were still interesting to watch on
all things data retention and surveillance state and are related to the topic:

The Listening - 2006 (specifically on Echelon)
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427461/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427461/)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlVK906Xzr8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlVK906Xzr8)

The Conversation (1974)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversation)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhRsZ56b4g](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhRsZ56b4g)

The Lives of Others (2006)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others)

Spying on the Home Front (PBS, 2007)
[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/)

The Enemy Within (PBS, 2006)
[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/)

The Wire, Season 1 (HBO, 2002) Brazil (1985) Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984)

------
akiselev
"10.3.3. Hackers

Hackers are computer specialists with the knowledge to gain access to computer
networks from the outside. In the early days, hackers were _computer freaks_
who got a kick out of breaking through the security devices of computer
systems. Nowadays there are contract hackers in both the services and on the
market." (emphasis added)

What? This is an official EU report?

~~~
_stephan
It seems the report was written by a German. When the report was written
(apparently around 2000-2001) "computer freak" was commonly used in Germany to
describe what today would be called "nerd" or "geek". There's even a Wikipedia
page:
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computerfreak](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computerfreak)
It's not really meant in a derogatory way, it's just one of many annoying
pseudo-anglicisms.

~~~
kybernetyk
This. Only after reading your comment I considered that "freak" might be taken
offensive. We grew up with "Computerfreaks" here in Germany.

I guess we Germans have a questionable talent of taking english words and
making them our own e.g. "Handy" for cell phone. :)

------
caycep
That being said, UK/Canada/Aus/NZ are part of Echelon, no? so information
could flow both ways.

Of note - how the NSA spies on the Americans it's not supposed to: send the
relevant info to UK/Aus/NZ/Canadian SIGINT assets and have them do it...

