
Sidewalk Labs doc reveals early vision for tax powers, criminal justice (2019) - anigbrowl
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-sidewalk-labs-document-reveals-companys-early-plans-for-data/
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jungletime
I took a cruise once. They took us to the beautiful Island of Roatan. As soon
as you get off, you can take a motorized chair lift to their private beach.
Over the dolphin experience, and a bay with spotted eagle rays. The beach,
perfection. The sand, hand raked. Amazing beautiful place. With a beach bar,
and sunny reggae music playing.

A place anyone could take a postcard quality photo for their instagram. Of
course, almost unavoidably with cruise ship glistening in the sunshine in the
background. Its at that moment, I realize I'm living a dream. A dream, dreamt
up in some board room meeting for free advertising. Outside the carefully
constructed boundaries of this corporate beach paradise, a country with one of
the highest murder rates in the world. To this day, I have mixed feelings when
I think of this place.

~~~
warent
Them having a tourist economy is probably still better than the alternative.
As long as you're mindful that you're in an experience that was crafted for
you, I don't see a problem with it. Ignorance is not required or necessary to
appreciate a paradise experience.

~~~
LilBytes
I very much doubt that money trickles down to the local community that needs
it in any measurable way.

Trickle down economics doesn't work in Western Countries, in third world
countries, this would be demonstrably worse.

You see the exact same in Fiji as I'm assuming you do in Honduras (I haven't
been to Honduras) on cruises and holidays in the South Pacific around
Australia.

Places like the Soloman Islands and other Melanesians & Polynesian Islands
have it less so. Fiji was just... so much worse. Security outfits. 12 foot
walls. Not being permitted to leave the hotel complex. The illusion you're
sold is so much different to the one you see from the hotel. And the disparity
between what you're purchasing and what the locals live I found I couldn't
escape. I really couldn't or want to go to ever again. And if I do I want to
make sure more of my money go to those that need it.

~~~
dawg-
Mass tourism creates mostly shit jobs, and people have to commodify their
cultural heritage to get them. Cruise ship companies and hospitality
executives get rich, and the government might get lots of tax revenue. But we
need to stop pretending like tourism is an unqualified positive for poor
countries.

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jariel
"Sidewalk will require tax and financing authority to finance and provide
services, including the ability to impose, capture and reinvest property
taxes,” the book said. The company would also create and control its own
public services, including charter schools, special transit systems and a
private road infrastructure. Sidewalk’s early data-driven vision also extended
to public safety and criminal justice."

I think people have a good instinct for dystopian corporate futures, so I
think this will be nixed.

The thing that I fear more, is that people have no concept how much culture is
imbued in civilization and that it just can't be ordained like Walt Disney -
other than in small parcels.

What will happen is that culture will be optimized for profit.

Much like boring processed food, which is scientifically geared to have the
right mix of sugar and other flavours, and which all tastes kind of bland at
the end of the day ... 'Google Life' would be like a jar of Salsa. If you've
only ever had process/jarred salsa, you might think it's great - but if you've
ever made salsa yourself (it's very easy) you know how great it is, and what
it's supposed to taste like ... you can never go back.

North America is full of people who've only ever known the life of 'jarred
salsa' and they keep thinking these schemes have value, it's sad really.

If this were an option to 'revitalise' an otherwise wiped out community that
maybe temporarily needed some TLC ... then maybe. But in the long run? No
thanks.

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walterbell
Are these ideas moving to NYC, adding to the Sidewalk/LinkNYC kiosk WiFi
network?

[https://theintercept.com/2020/05/08/andrew-cuomo-eric-
schmid...](https://theintercept.com/2020/05/08/andrew-cuomo-eric-schmidt-
coronavirus-tech-shock-doctrine/)

 _> The inspiration for these uncharacteristically good vibes was a video
visit from former Google CEO Eric Schmidt, who joined the governor’s briefing
to announce that he will be heading up a blue-ribbon commission to reimagine
New York state’s post-Covid reality, with an emphasis on permanently
integrating technology into every aspect of civic life._

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jrumbut
I think the key flaw in these types of efforts is they ignore the long term
success of the democratic process. It feels like once they get a foothold
through the existing government bodies, the goal is to largely replace them
with their own vision. But how will the people in the community control their
own destiny in the long term?

Governance seems to be an afterthought.

You have to give up a little control, but everyone benefits. Alphabet wouldn't
exist without the system that gave rise to it, why kill the golden goose?

~~~
throwaway2048
Corporations are normally fundamentally autocratic institutions from top to
bottom (your boss has absolute say, and if you oppose it, you are liable to be
fired on the spot).

Its extremely concerning how many people just accept this as some fundamental
fact of life.

All sidewalk labs is, is an extension of that principle onto general
government.

~~~
digitaltrees
This is a totally ignored point. Thank you for pointing it out. Why
libertarianism would prefer private dictators to democracy, even if it’s a
monopoly, in the pursuit of individual liberty is strange.

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jungletime
I think I found an appropriate song for this article

"Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-r-V0uK4u0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-r-V0uK4u0)

~~~
throwaway2048
Except sidewalk labs is dead now.

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thesausageking
More concerning is their asking for police powers and the ability to use the
surveillance data they collect for sentencing:

> The book mentions both the data-collection opportunities for police forces
> (Sidewalk notes it would ask for local policing powers similar to those
> granted to universities) and the possibility of “an alternative approach to
> jail,” using data from so-called “root-cause assessment tools.” This would
> guide officials in determining a response when someone is arrested, such as
> sending someone to a substance abuse centre.

~~~
drusepth
It depends on the local laws. Some states in the US give university police the
same powers invested in "real" police officers, but many limit enforcement to
ticketing, monitoring, and/or detainment until the "real" police arrive. I
don't know what the local law is in Toronto, but this seems relevant.

Using data-driven approaches to assess "root causes" and improve the (flawed)
court system and the (flawed) justice system sounds like a good idea. Sending
someone to a substance abuse center (or other rehabilitative vector) instead
of jail sounds like a massive improvement over the typical one-size-fits-all
jail "solution" to crime.

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HarryHirsch
Traditionally, laws are made through the political process, like this the
public gets input and oversight (at least in theory). To hand these power over
to a corporation whose only purpose it money-making and whose duties are to
the shareholders and thinking that that's a good idea is worrying.

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lonelappde
Project was canceled last week.

[https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN22J2FN](https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN22J2FN)

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m_ke
Most New Yorkers have no idea that LinkNYC is a Google project that's meant to
track them without ever even connecting to the "free" wifi. I'd be willing to
bet most people don't even know that those things have cameras on them.

~~~
xoxoy
Maybe an underappreciated benefit on the normalization of face mask wearing is
that it stops unwanted or unknown attempts at facial recognition.

~~~
m_ke
I doubt that they use face recognition for tracking, instead they can just log
MAC addresses of mobile phones that come within range.

Here's an example of a company selling this:
[https://www.skyhook.com/blog/nuts-and-bolts-of-location-
inte...](https://www.skyhook.com/blog/nuts-and-bolts-of-location-intelligence)

~~~
throwaway2048
Why not both? Google collects as much data as it can in pretty much every
other context.

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wutbrodo
I ask this every time this comes up, and have yet to get an answer: in what
way are "property taxes" for residents of a development not just "condo fees"?

I have to be missing _something_

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sandworm101
Condo fees go to a small body controlled by people who pay the tax. Property
taxes go to a very much larger body which includes all sorts of people who,
for whatever reason, don't necessarily pay the tax directly.

That inclusivity on the basis of legal status, citizenship rather than asset
ownership/wealth, is the difference between civil government and a private
club requiring buy-in. The requirement to own property in order to participate
in government was abandoned long ago, with good cause. That system was
horrible.

~~~
wutbrodo
Thank you for the thoughtful answer! I'm not sure I understand. I have a
friend renting a condo from its owners, which I gather isn't an unheard-of
occurrence. Given that she's not paying the "property taxes" (HOA fees) and
not a member of the direct democracy "government" (the HOA), is she any
different from someone living in this development who rents from an owner?

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gtfoutttt
They pay the HOA, it's just built into their rent. Most property owners and
landlords don't tend to overlook stuff like that.

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wutbrodo
Yes, I know. That's the case for my friend, and I don't think anyone would
suggest that her situation is horribly undemocratic. The parent comment's
claim, as I understood it, is that this is horribly undemocratic because my
renter friend is not directly a member of and represented by the HOA, as those
rights are proxied through her landlord. My point is that I don't see how that
differs from this proposed development: either you own, and are represented by
the HOA-equivalent, or you rent, and are in the same position as any renter of
a condo.

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pseudalopex
It sounds like they _would_ suggest your friend's situation is horribly
undemocratic.

~~~
wutbrodo
Sure, but that brings me back to my original question: people's reaction to
"Google wants to charge property taxes" has been nowhere near their reaction
to "condominiums exist". I'm hoping to get an answer to my question that isn't
simply "people are stupid and react based on buzzwords instead of a basic
understanding of what they're talking about".

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skywal_l
Delta City! For our children. Brought to you by Omni Consumer Product.

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anigbrowl
Title edited slightly for length

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sitkack
Everything becomes surveillance at some point.

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WarOnPrivacy
> Everything becomes surveillance at some point.

I offer that the challenge isn't surveillance but disproportional
surveillance. That is, the harms that follow modern data collection occur
because that data is locked away from you and me. Presently, power from data
is reserved for those already in power. This allows them to leverage our data
against all of us, w/o meaningful consequences.

If we want responsible data use, I believe the surest way to achieve that is
thru equal access by default. In that scenario, those in power are far more
motivated to desire safeguards for everyone - instead of the perverse
incentives that we all enjoy today.

~~~
projektfu
It’s equal. Google gets to know where you’ve been, and you also get to know
where you’ve been. /s

