
I'm burning out and I can't tell anyone - redhat
I'm the cofounder of a startup that really needs me right now. I suspect I may be burning out or have already burnt out.  Despite things going relatively well, I'm somewhat depressed all the time, easily irritable, resentful of my cofounder and constantly think to myself that I need a break.<p>My work isn't really getting affected (yet?). I've taken half days off before, but they weren't enough.<p>Anyone had the same problem? What did you do about it and what happened afterwards? Thanks.
======
patio11
Talk to your co-founder and tell him that your startup's current schedule is
unsustainable. Depression, irritability, and resentment are not positive
qualities in producing working code or customer engagement. Make such changes
to your work environment as are required like the responsible adults you are.

Personal life hacks:

1) All the folks telling you that diet and exercise will magically make things
better are _actually right_ in micro scale. (You can't pushup your way out of
being a salaryman but it is very hard to not get a QOL boost from reguar
exercise.) Blew my mind to experience this since I had always assumed it was
social signaling.

2) Your startup will _always_ send signals that it really needs you. Consider
making a commitment to maintaining family/friendship/church/whatever ties so
that you can maintain perspective on how much the bat signal going off really
matters.

3) You'll tend to end up like the folks you hang around with. If you steep
yourself 100% in startup culture, you'll tend to pick up its cultural
pathologies. I mean, do your five closest friends all overwork? That might be
why seeing half days off as a luxury item became your new normal. Consider
reconnecting with old friends or broadening your social circle.

~~~
mattdeboard
#3 is such a biggie. I was a Marine for 10 years, steeped in those rich,
deeply ingrained cultural pathologies. It wasn't until I started making good
friends outside of that culture that I realized how insane some of my life
habits really were. It just so happened my new friends were programmers.

~~~
cchurch
That's interesting. Give some examples of Marine Corps cultural pathologies.

~~~
mattdeboard
Honestly there's almost too many to name.

edit: Ok, well prominently there's the "zero defect mentality" that was
supposedly eradicated from the military in the past 20 or 30 years but is
still very much present. Obviously this varies from command to command, but...
anyway that's probably more big-picture than you're thinking of.

One small way (small as in every day life for people not big Marine Corps
issues) is this notion I'd guess I'd describe as "maximal accountability" for
your actions. Which is good up to a point but when coupled with the zero-
defect thing, tthen suddenly you're living a life where there's no such thing
as "not a big deal."

This also translates into being treated like a child when you're not in a
combat zone, with curfews, checking in, signing in and out on your own
personal time, and so forth. I get why it happens but as a 30-year-old guy
when I got out, I was getting a little too old to be THAT accountable to
someone else.

Ironically, when it came to my professional life as a Marine (all easily
verifiable btw if you google my name in case you're wondering if I'm another
poser) there was no simpler time than being in Iraq or afloat. Bullshit levels
were at a minimum because there were real things to accomplish. That's
coincidentally why I love being a programmer. :)

~~~
isleyaardvark
From an outside observer it seems that "zero defect mentality" has a negative
influence on reporting and treatment for PTSD.

~~~
mattdeboard
Yeah, of course it does.

------
edw519
Here's the incident (and litmus test from my cofounder) that permanently
changed my workaholic thinking:

cofounder: Hey Ed, it's 6:30. Finish up. Let's go next door and get a beer.

edw519: No, I have to finish <Task X>.

cofounder: Do that later. Have a beer with me.

edw519: No, I have to finish this now.

cofounder: Have a beer with me, then do that tomorrow.

edw519: No, this has to be finished tonight.

cofounder: Then have a beer with me, and come back after the beer and finish
it tonight.

edw519: No, I have to finish it first.

cofounder: If you have a beer with me and don't finish that, how will our
Annual Report be different?

edw519: What?

cofounder: You heard me. If you have a beer with me and don't finish that
tonight, how will our Annual Report be different?

edw519: I don't understand.

cofounder: Listen one more time and answer the fucking question! If you have a
beer with me and don't finish that tonight, how will our Annual Report be
different?

edw519: It won't be.

cofounder: Good. Then let's have that beer now. OK?

edw519: OK.

~~~
Produce
Incidentally and completely off-topic, unless your mental associations are as
loose as mine, but I was recently rather shocked to find out that alcohol is a
neurotoxin (<http://het.sagepub.com/content/26/3/251.abstract> \- just google
for a mountain worth of references). This is plain scary.

~~~
dsrguru
Alcohol is toxic to virtually every kind of tissue in your body. They say
drinking enough to feel drunk is much worse for your long-term health than a
moderate dose of recreational powder cocaine. But it feels good, it's legal in
most countries so you don't have to risk contaminants on the black market, and
lots of people pretend it's not even a drug, so Christian fundamentalists and
old people won't even look down on you!

~~~
mgkimsal
A lot of Christian fundamentalists will look down on you. That's sort of the
point of fundamentalism - extreme adherence to some principles. "No alcohol"
is a pretty common one in a lot of Christian churches. Many will perform their
communion with grape juice, not wine.

~~~
dsrguru
I was under the impression that Christian teetotalism, at least among the
predecessors of present-day social conservatives in America, became much less
common after the prohibition of alcohol in the U.S. ended. I guess that's not
the case. But there are certainly lots of people, many but not all being
religious Christians, who define alcohol as something other than a drug (as
can be seen from the phrase "drugs and alcohol," which in my view is even
harder to defend than "humans and animals" or "doctors and dentists," but I
digress yet again...), which allows them to drink while simultaneously
criticizing other recreational drug users. Oh the wonders of cognitive
dissonance.

~~~
warfangle
The Presbyterian church I grew up in used grape juice instead of wine. In
other ways, it was fairly progressive - especially in the kind of music
played/performed during services. And the teachings were fundamentalist in a
completely different way than most folks think of fundy christians.

~~~
angersock
they put the "fun" in fundamentalism?

:)

~~~
warfangle
Not...quite. ;)

------
staunch
Tell your co-founders you need a week off. They should probably take one too.
Go find a beach and read a book there every day. Don't think about work.

Despite how it may _seem_ there's _no chance_ your company will die or suffer
any irreparable harm in a week. Just do it.

When you come back have a discussion with your co-founders. Try to talk
through (calmly and without resentment) the problems you see. Focus on finding
the best _solutions_ to the problems. Don't get into arguments about the past.
Everything before is water under the bridge. You will have to accept that
certain things probably can't be fixed, and that's okay. Fix the things that
hinder your company's ability to succeed.

Also, make sure you sleep enough every day. Don't skimp on sleep at all.
Nothing will make you burn out faster than chronic sleep deprivation. Everyone
can get 8+ hours of sleep per night if they make it a priority.

~~~
ma2rten
I would like to point out meditation. I got started with meditation because
someone recommended it as cure for burnout here on HackerNews and I feel like
I need to return the favor. Meditation is like taking a week off compressed
into 30 minutes. The idea is that you do nothing for some time - not even
think. I know it sounds wierd, but if you do it corrrectly you fell more
balanced, less agitated and happier in general afterwards. You will get a
fresh view on your problems and be able to put them into perspective. Just
like taking a week off meditation won't fix your problems for you, but it will
get you into the right mindset to do so or for accepting that curtain things
can not be fixed.

There are different kinds of meditation, but I am talking about mindfulness
meditation in the Buddhist tradition. When people hear the word meditation,
they often associate it with some kind of new age non-sense. This kind of
meditation has nothing to do with that. It also does not require to convert to
Buddhism either. If you are interested I would recommend the book Mindfullness
in Plain English. It's also available for free as an e-book on the internet.

~~~
TamDenholm
I'm the kind of guy who would immediately think of meditation as some hippy
activity, but i've actually found my own way that works for me which is to go
and do a repetitive task that required no brain power, it helps clear my mind
and makes me much more productive.

~~~
Produce
That's actually what meditation is mostly about. With a breathing meditation,
you just pull your focus back to your breath every time you get distracted.
That's it. All the stuff about having to close your eyes, or sit with your
knees behind your head while a guru throws a bucket of water at you is just
dogma. So, funnily enough, you already do meditate.

~~~
RyanPorter
I signed up so that I could post that I strongly agree. I'm the CTO at a
startup that depends way too heavily on me, and I use Tai Chi to stay sane.
Tai Chi is about a lot of things but the part that keeps me sane is the
meditative aspect of running my body through a "program" of movements, which
requires a specific amount of attention. If your mind wanders during a Tai Chi
form then you'll screw it up. And if you focus too MUCH then you'll also screw
it up. So Tai Chi becomes a tool for practicing the mental state known as
"flow".

Aside from it being a form of moving meditation for the mind, it helps the
body, especially for a tech nerd. I began studying Tai Chi, I came near
burnout partly because my body was always in a similar posture all week. I
developed RSI in my neck and my shoulder from constantly tensing muscles to
use a mouse or trackpad. If I worked through a weekend, or two in a row, then
I might spend 20 or 30 days in a row with my shoulder tight. Tai Chi is not
intense exercise, but it moves all of your muscles through their full range of
motion. Simply having that "program" that I can run with my body eliminated my
RSI. Even though I still have to spend way too much time at the keyboard.

~~~
Produce
Nice timing with this post. Yesterday my thumb was twitching uncontrollably
for half the day due to what looks like RSI and I was wondering what my
options were. Thanks for the tip!

------
sdoering
I've had that feeling once, standing on the edge. And I know some people that
burned out.

There is only one working solution. Get professional help.

If your servers crash - you ask an expert. If your car makes funny noises -
you go to a garage, were there are professionals. If you have an infection -
you consult an M.D.

But we tend to ignore psychological conditions and we tend to ask others
(amateurs) for an opinion. But this is really nothing more than a physical
illness in respect to the way it has to be treated - by an expert.

So do yourself a favor and ask your favorite search-engine for professionals,
that know their stuff, when it comes to burnout. And then make an appointment.
You are no good to your startup, if it crashes around you, because you crash
and burn. You are no help to anybody, if your condition affects your work (and
it will do that soon).

You have the responsibility for everybody, who's paycheck depends on the
success of your startup - and that depends on your well being.

And: You owe it to yourself to heal.

 _just my two cents_

~~~
throwawayagain
Throwaway here and I completely agree.

Consult your primary care physician first. They are best equipped to diagnose
somatic problems and will refer you out to a psychiatrist once you check out
okay physically.

I for a couple of years dealt with depression and just being damn tired all
the time. I actually had to go to a few doctors before I found one that was
able to help me.

Turns out I had a goddamn tumor in my parathyroid gland. I'll paraphrase a bit
of Dr. House, "unsquint [sic] your eyes when you take a look at your labs"

------
cgshaw
Greetings from a fellow hard-charger.

I've experienced burnout a number of times in personal and professional
contexts and I _think_ nearing 30, I've got a pretty good handle on myself
finally.

1\. You can ALWAYS and should ALWAYS talk to SOMEONE. My advice is find a
great therapist. If you can't afford one, you need to find a friend,
confidant, or family member that's away from the action. Talk through things
and see if you can wrap your head around what's bothering you.

2\. Exercise. Seriously. Exercise helps sleeps, weight loss, anxiety,
depression, add--it's a pretty awesome medication. Read "Spark" by John Ratey.

3\. Sleep. The times in my life I've felt most burnt out corresponded with
awful sleeping patterns. (also see 2)

4\. Reflect. After trying to talk through things and getting your body back on
track think about your work. Are you happy doing what you're doing? Do you
want to do something else? (some might recommend doing this first--I wouldn't;
only because in my judgment I've made decisions I regretted because I felt
like I wasn't in the right place--not because I really didn't like the
opportunity)

This is obviously a reader's digest version, but it took me probably 5 or 6
iterations before I could identify, prevent (or treat) my burnout.

~~~
drbawb
I'm always surprised by how effective #2 can be.

I had a particularly rough Friday last week and so I decided to skip coming
home in favor of a long bike ride.

I was fully expecting to go home, mope around, and fall asleep. Instead I came
home - clear headed - and had a great weekend.

\--

I'd also recommend biking as a great form of exercise. Personally I don't like
the gym, memberships can get kind of pricy, and for some reason I always feel
uncomfortable at a gym.

Biking however gives you access to tons of free trails, it's great for your
cardiovascular system (you won't get ripped biking, but you will feel
_fantastic._ )

Plus being out on a scenic trail does wonders for your mental health.

Just my $0.02

------
etamas
* Workout like a horse. Best cure for depression, ever. The feeling I get when running is so liberating that it usually manages to alleviate 99% of the mood problems.

* Sleep like a rock, when you get the chance. Lack of sleep, among alcohol abuse are the most common causes of depression (at least from my personal observation)

* Hang out with friends, family as much as possible, when you get the chance. They'll constantly remind you why you work so hard. Also try to explain them why are you doing certain tradeoffs in your relationship with them.

* Swallow a boatload of Magnesium + B6. IMHO it's the biggest source of happiness one can buy for little money. It keeps your stress levels in control and your heart condition in shape.

* Meditate. I cannot stress this enough. Constantly talk to yourself when you're alone and seek thoroughly for things that cause distress in your life. Debug yourself. You _have_ to like yourself for others to like you!

* Get a girlfriend that understands you or dump the one that doesn't get it (unless you're already married)

~~~
LinaLauneBaer
What about getting a boyfriend?

~~~
Produce
Nothing in his post indicates homosexuality.

~~~
hack_edu
Nothing in their post indicates heterosexuality.

~~~
ljlolel
Nothing in her reply indicates she's a man.

------
dasil003
A lot of great advice here. Diet, exercise, sleep, minimizing alcohol, and
talking to a therapist are all good advice. Burnout or depression is different
for everyone though, and it can be quite complex. Let me propose another
angle.

Who was it that said if you can't take a month off without telling anyone you
don't really have a business? Yes, yes, I know that a startup is not yet a
true business, but one of the most important things in a startup is letting go
as you grow. It's very easy to convince yourself that you are absolutely
essential, but in reality your job is to build a money-making machine where
you are _not_ essential. One cause of burnout is being overworked because you
are taking on too much personally. When you build something from the ground
up, you have a lot of knowledge that others might not have, which makes it
psychologically difficult to delegate, but nevertheless you have to find a way
to let people make their own mistakes or your own treadmill will go faster and
faster until you flare out spectacularly.

------
flypunk
I had a burnout once and continued to work for 6 months afterwards to maximize
my unvested options.

The options turned out to be worth a lot, by I couldn't enjoy work for 3
years, so I am not sure continuing to work was a good decision.

In my case the reason for a burnout was personal (relations with my boss) and
I suspect that the reason is always personal.

I would distill it to 2 advices: ask yourself the 5 whys about the burnout and
don't continue working in this state.

~~~
Jach
I wish your comment was higher on the page. I would say you made the right
choice to keep working for that extra 6 months post-burnout, because post-
burnout takes minimally 2 years to recover from if you're going to recover at
all. For you it took 3, I would bet those extra 6 months factored in, but I'm
assuming you didn't have to worry about finances so much during those three
years so it may have been a good tradeoff.

I second the advice to uncover the causes that are pushing toward burnout,
because if they are left to fester then burnout becomes inevitable and post-
burnout recovery takes even longer. Exercising more isn't going to fix it. A
week vacation isn't going to fix it, a month vacation isn't going to fix it,
because when the vacation is over nothing will have changed. The best a
vacation can do is delay.

------
Maro
I'm doing a startup and I've gone through some really rough times, like going
for 5 days without sleep because of anxiety due to cashflow problems. My wife
gave me sleeping pills (she's an M.D.) and was generally supportive. I didn't
get professional help from a psy*. It passed in 2 weeks. I learned a lot from
the experience and grew as a person. I have faced similar situations since and
now can handle them without losing sleep.

I would recommend to take some time off and _travel_, ie. active vacationing.
If you just sit around at home that's probably no good. Also, if you can't
sleep, take some pills.

This may sound odd, but I found reading books from the Dalai Lama also helps
to handle issues like this on an intellectual level, ie. remove the negative
emotions and just figure out what's bothering you.

[http://www.amazon.com/Art-Happiness-10th-Anniversary-
Handboo...](http://www.amazon.com/Art-Happiness-10th-Anniversary-
Handbook/dp/1594488894)

If you're startup is doing good, then thank the Hacker News Gods and don't
worry!

Best of luck! Cheers =)

PS.: if you need someone to talk to check my profile for contact info.

------
akg
Take time out of your day to relax or exercise or simply take a week or two
off. There is no shame in that and I think the 20 hour work days have been
overly glamorized. Talk to your co-founder, I'm sure the startup can manage or
you will work out a solution that will. There is no shame in feeling this way,
it is perfectly natural and you are not alone.

------
DanBC
Address problems now, while they're still relatively easy to tackle. Leaving
them means they will build up and be harder to face.

Adjust your work life balance. This means doing things like (as have been
mentioned) getting more exercise and getting better sleep. Both of these will
not only help your mood, but they will make you more productive.

You need to talk to your team. Explain what's happening.

You have awareness and insight - you say "despite things going well I'm
somewhat depressed" - that's good. Try some cognitive behaviour therapy
techniques. A good book is "Mind over mood"; a good website is the Australian
"mood gym". You could see a therapist.

Luckily this kind of stress / low mood responds excellently to interventions.

------
dmor
Its interesting, no one told you to quit.

I'd check on sleep deprivation first. Take a week off, sleep 10 hours every
night, exercise every day lightly (long walks listening to music are good),
read a book. If you do all this and you still think you're at the end of your
rope then you need to talk with your cofounder.

You also said it isn't affecting your work yet, but people are smart and
social signals are sent without even realizing it. Its impacting your work
already, in little ways, and will only get worse. Deal with this now, don't
wait.

------
spif
As a startup founder that recently sold my company, I can totally relate.
Right up till the moment I signed the final SPA I thought I would crash and go
crazy. Some of the things that helped me through:

1) You are not alone. Most founders will completely sympathize with you and
understand your feelings. There are a growing number of founders that are
coming out with their stories. Remember pg's articles about the highs and the
lows? Also check #3 of YC's survey here:
<http://www.paulgraham.com/really.html>

2) It's normal. Knowing that everybody hurts. It's normal that things are
hard. If you can acknowledge this one simple fact, things become much easier.

3) Openness. Talking to friends and family and being open about it. The
hardest thing I found was to be vulnerable wit those I feared might abuse it
(investors, spouse, co-founders). In the end it actually improved everything
about my relationships with most of those (and some that it didn't - it showed
their true colors). For example with my gf - for her it was an instant
revelation how I was feeling and she understood why I was cranky, tired or
otherwise distant. After telling her how I felt - it was like instant
intimacy.

4) Time out. Taking constructive time out and feeling happy are correlated
immensely. Constructive time out is not watching the newest Walking Dead, but
for me an effective time out was writing lists of my thoughts down. Taking the
time out meant I would feel more in control. Feeling in control directly leads
to more peace and happiness.

5) Doing GTD. The other items in the list are somewhat softer but this is one
that has made the biggest practical impact. I religiously follow zero inbox
and for me it is a something I pride myself in too -> feel better about things
and gives me the brainspace to think about the higher level stuff.

Hope that helps. Feel free to email if you want to discuss more. There's much
more back story to this than can be public. ;-)

~~~
Estragon
What does SPA stand for?

~~~
kosso
Share Purchase Agreement

------
bluelu
Check your vitamine D levels.

I was also feeling exhausted and feared the worst, but it was all related to
that. If you don't see the sun very often, you will build up a lack of
Vitamine D.

------
tferris
stop alcohol, caffeine for a while, go to the gym. talk to your cofounder, be
open. work less or stop working BUT keep something doing (very important; dont
do just nothing, THAT makes you more depressed, start a simple side project,
learn skiing or whatever)

for every problem there is always a solution, talk to your cofounder, your
view on life and your peers is toxic now but this will change very quickly

dont rush into any decision now, wait until you see clear again

------
foolinator
Get the fuck out of there. Do it with class. They'll understand. Your life and
your health are far more important. Fuck the romanticism of startups, do your
own thing. You're posting on here looking to hear this because you know it's
true. GTFO.

I just got laid off from a douche bag boss (who knows, you may have been that
boss, for all I know). He was pretty much in your shoes. I imagine in another
life he'd be a good guy but his negative attitude was infectious and as a
result his protégés are now professional douches and everyone around him is
miserable. You're going to become THAT GUY if you don't get out.

------
gargalatas
Everyone is afraid to take some vacation who have a startup. I think that this
situation makes things even worst and then you think that you had enough but
in the opposite site you afraid to leave for some vacation and put yourself in
an endless loop. Depression is coming...

Take some days off. Soon you will understand that everyone respects your
vacation. Don't afraid to pick up the phone and give solutions where it's
needed while you are in the middle of your holidays. Picking up the phone will
make you feel comfortable.

And always remember: Everyone respects your vaction. Don't afraid to leave for
some days and relax.

~~~
foolinator
He works for an asshole. He won't leave because he's being a pussy.

------
crewtide
It's hard to tell from your post how much of this is about you and how much is
about your startup's culture. For each case, figure out what you can do to
improve the situation.

You: I completely agree with patio11's diet & exercise point. Strenuous
exercise (over 30 min) releases endorphines that act as both analgesics and
sedatives, and are shown to reduce depression, increase self-esteem, etc. You
owe it to yourself and your startup to do this life hack no matter what the
cause of your current unhappiness.

Of course, diet, sleeping well, and taking time off/socializing are also great
ideas. The important thing is to take action now before it affects your
life/startup any more than it has.

Your startup: If you think some of your resentment or depression is due to
dysfunction in your startup, then come up with ways you can improve it. Focus
on actions you can take rather than on ways other people/the group could
change. I also find that people are more likely to change when asked to do
something than when asked to "not do" something.

For example, if workaholism is an issue, it's easy to fall into outward/"don't
do" thinking like this: telling the group that the amount of time required is
making you unhappy, and that it should change. Instead, try saying something
like, "I think I'll work better if I take a whole day off every two weeks and
I'd love it if people joined me. My first day off will be x day, and I'm going
to go hiking, let me know if you want to come." People love to join a good
idea.

Good luck!

------
jmaskell
Talk to your co-founder. It sounds like you're pretty sure that the problem
can be resolved by taking a break. Try taking a week off. You're no good to
your startup is you're burnt out and unable to work. Not taking a week off to
rest now could cost you many weeks in the future.

If you take some time off to rest and you don't feel any better seek
professional help. Mental health is just as important as physical health and
isn't something that you should feel ashamed about.

------
jgarmon
Related question from a different perspective: HOW DO I MAKE MY CEO TAKE SOME
TIME OFF?

I'm not a confounder, but the CEO-founder is a friend and hired me on as soon
as he cleared his A-round funding. (We've been confounders before on a project
that flopped and he knew I wasn't in the risk position to be a dayjob-quitting
early employee this time.) He's a serious workaholic -- claims to enjoy being
so -- and the company is doing very well. That said, he's CLEARLY burning out.

He's talked for the last year about taking some time off, but between the
birth of a new child, fundraising, strategic partnerships and the continued
burden of success, his "week in Florida" kept being pushed off, shrunk to
"three days in Florida" to "a day off" to "I'll take some time after this next
funding round. Maybe."

Setting aside the fact that he's my CEO (and a ragged chief exec is bad for
everybody), he's also a friend. I don't want to see him burn out. This will
almost certainly NOT be the last company we work on together, and I'd like to
see him survive -- mind, body, marriage and social circle intact -- past our
current endeavor.

So, again, how do I convince my workaholic CEO to take some time off?

~~~
crewtide
Taking a day off is much harder than doing something in particular that's fun.
I rarely "take a day off" -- frankly, it's boring. But doing something in
particular is much easier. He's your friend, so you probably know what he
likes -- suggest something. An all-day hike, paintball, star-trek marathon,
you could even toss around romantic ideas he could do with his wife. Give him
something specific to do that's compelling, and I bet he'll be more likely to
do it than "take time off."

------
mgs019
I was in a similar place about 18 months ago with a digital agency I founded
and ended up selling it about a year ago. I don't regret the selling part but
I know now that I could have made my own life a load easier if I just stopped
and looked at things objectively.

It sounds to me like you need to get some perspective on things so I would
suggest:

1) Talk to your co-founder. They probably see you in ways you don't realise
and they should understand that for the sake of the startup it is best to give
you a bit of support. If they don't then seriously think about whether you
want to continue with someone who won't support you (and the startup) when you
need them to.

2) Take a break. By this I mean a real break where your cell phone is off for
at least a week if not two. Where you do as little as possible and try not to
even think about work. It might take a bit of time to get yourself a chance to
do this but you have to.

3) Learn to meditate. It will totally change the way you look at things. The
feeling of suffering and pain you have comes from your mind being out of
control - you know rationally that it isn't as bad as it seems and said as
much above. Learning to calm your mind and get rid of the fog will help you
look at what really is important and you will feel more in control and
positive.

3) Remember that you are only human. There is nothing wrong with making
mistakes and things getting on top of you. You must learn to not be perfect
and be happy that you are as you are. There is no shame in needing help.

5) If the above don't work for you go and see a doctor. Depression is a real
and sometimes very severe illness. For some people (but only some) medication
is the right answer.

Hope that helps.

------
Xylakant
Get a break, something that lasts longer than half a day. Go somewhere where
you don't have internet, maybe even no phone connection. Knowing that you
actually can't do anything really helps me to wind down and relax. It still
needs a day or two, but it's worth ten times as much as a day where I'm
supposed to be off but I can constantly check emails and have to actually
restrain myself from doing so.

------
wisty
You can tell your co-founder. You've got a duty to let them know. I'd be
furious if a co-worker told me that they'd been nursing a huge problem on
their own, and not let me in on it until it was too late, and it put the whole
project in danger.

I'd time-box it - tell them you are feeling burnt out, and want their help for
2 months. No reasonable person would be annoyed at a co-worker taking it easy
for 8 weeks. If you feel better at the end of it, then the crisis (for them)
is averted. If not, you can consider your options. Note - I'm not a therapist,
and I don't know if that's the best way of handling it. There's plenty of
people who are better qualified than me to come up with a good plan for this.

> startup that really needs me right now

You should really re-consider that. No startup needs 100% of your ability. A
slightly inferior feature-set won't kill a viable startup. You aren't in a
100m sprint in which you need to do everything that's humanly possible to beat
the other guy. It's more like a dance competition, in which strategic
decisions are more important. That's assuming you have a ton of competitors.

~~~
foolinator
Your boss is a dick, so he's making it clear they shouldn't need you. Get that
shit out of your head that the sky will fall for these people if you leave. It
won't.

It's hard to believe, I know, but they WILL find a replacement and life will
go on.

If I'm wrong, your boss should've learned not to work you like a whore.

I can feel the OP's pain man. GTFO. Quit.

~~~
wisty
I don't think the OP's boss is necessarily a dick. The OP may be putting the
pressure on himself (he is a co-founder).

But my point is, no company needs you to be give 100%. Ever. Even if you are
the only person who can do your job.

------
TobiHeidi
Talk to your cofounder about it! Be honest, there is a solution for every
problem.

------
hiromichan
I suppose it is also important to find out why are you burning out? Is it the
amount of work? Is it something your co-founders do or something that didn't
turn out as expected?

I suppose there are several reasons why someone can burn out, and as well as
getting some rest to clean the mind it is also important to find out why
that's happening. Otherwise it would happen again.

My first and best manager I had, once told me, that jobs are a bit like
relationships, the more you try different ones the more you find out what you
_don't_ like. I have found that to be a great piece of advise. So I guess my
advise to you would be find out what it is not working for you. Talk to
someone outside the whole situation that can have a clear picture of what's
happening to you, either a therapist, an old pal or just a family members I
guess would be able to help you.

I hope this helps :) I have been there and I was miserable for family and
friends.. but having them close to me was a huge help to get back to my old
self once again :)

S

------
Seru_kr
Hey, I've been in the same boat before and let me tell you about my
experience.

I started a small business that worked in conjunction with title companies. We
basically recorded on our own servers deeds, notice of defaults, and other
real estate documents and sent them to the county recorders office.

We didn't have much competition because this concept was relatively new and
not popular back then. So everything was going great except my partner and I
were two completely different people when it came to managing.

He was a strict by-the-book kind of guy that alienated potential clients due
to his stubborn nature and unwillingness to compromise. On the other hand, I
was too lenient and was letting clients take advantage of us. At the time we
didn't know that maybe we could complement each others weakness, so we were
constantly arguing.

So we both went to a mediator that suggested we go on a recreational trip
together and not talk about business at all. So we did and at first argued
about minor stuff, but finally came to a realization that neither of us were
going to succeed if we kept it up. How could we run a business together if we
couldn't even come to an agreement to which car to rent? We started
compromising little by little and eventually it was easy to see the other
person's point of view.

We turned the business around, made it even more successful and sold it making
both of us very happy. Now we have a new company that we started together and
it is also doing pretty well.

My advice would be to take some time off. Maybe spend some time with your co-
founder in a non-business way. Get to know him if you don't really know him
well. And don't sweat the small stuff.

Knowing your problem is the first step, and I think you've already got that
down.

If you still feel down, don't forget you have a growing user-base that is
cheering you on.

------
jyothi
Pause, Relax & Recharge.

This happens and in a way it is good that your co-founder is going strong and
doesn't need a break too. You badly need to recharge yourself & this has to be
time well spent cautiously and consciously chalking out what you do during
your break. A hackathlon or doing some sales for a friend can charge you back
it need not be necessarily travel or rest. In effect you need to do something
very different from the type of thinking that you do everyday (note different
in thinking not the work type).

Also give yourself a break from all the headaches on your current startup -
consciously keep away from talking to anyone on the team or checking out
updates (positive updates are probably fine)

If you are the type of person for whom physical exertion works free up the
mind - go for a hard trek or run or swim.

As far as your depressed nature, cofounder resentment etc - you might be
blowing it out of proportion right now given you are not able to contribute
effectively or thinking too much.

------
jsi979
I think this is happening to my co-founder (though I don't think he's the OP).
We've been working on our SaaS company for several years, have a good number
of paying customers, have hired half a dozen employees from revenue (never
took funding), and are building a great company with a product our customers
love. But it's still a struggle every day, and there are always more things to
do than we have time for.

I can tell he's tired - he comes in to the office later and later, seems more
easily irritated, has worked crazy long hours for years with hardly any days
or weekends off. I think the daily stresses are just starting to wear on him.
(Me too, of course, but that's a subject for a different post!) If I recognize
what the OP is going through in my own co-founder, how should I bring it up?

For those of you who have or are going through this kind of thing, any
thoughts on the best way to talk to someone who is struggling with this? I
really want to help.

------
huhtenberg
> _somewhat depressed all the time, easily irritable_

It took me several years to pin it down, but in my case getting more sleep
_completely_ solved above problems. Try and take a full day off and sleep in.
Pull full 9-10 hours of sleep and assess if your irritability level is the
same or not.

------
brudgers
You can tell someone, and you have.

The biggest issue from a business standpoint is your resentment of your
cofounder [I'll leave healthcare diagnosis to the professionals].

Basically, you and your cofounder are married. The startup is your baby. I
expect [based on personal experience] a marriage counselor would focus on
improving communication between the two of you.

I'd ask what the particular resentment is in regards to, but the details don't
really matter.

What matters is:

1\. Are the causes of resentment something which can be rectified either
directly between the two of you, or with mediation?

2\. How can the level of trust between the two of you be strengthened to the
point where you can work through these problems together?

3\. Is there someone who could help both of you work through the issue
together?

------
devs1010
Something that's helped me, without having to resort to smart drugs, or
anything like that, is increasing your vitamin intake from natural sources, I
get the natural vitamins (made from real fruits and vegetables, not
manufactured ones in a lab, you have to look for them as they don't sell them
everywhere and they are more expensive) and also drink a lot of vegetable
juice or the veggie / fruit juice mixes (look for the light ones or sodium
free ones if you want to keep it as healthy as possible). I don't know for
sure if is a placebo effect or if it really boosts energy short term, but I
feel like it can sometimes give me a boost and just feel healthier and more
awake overall.

------
angdis
You _can_ tell someone. Tell you co-founder if you have a strong relationship.

The "end-game" for burnout is complete dysfunction and possibly worse for an
extended period of time. If this happens the first thing your co-founder will
say is "Why didn't you tell me?"

------
aw3c2
If your startup really needs you and your colleagues know that, everyone will
understand if you are under too much stress and I think their reactions (while
possible sad (which you might interpret as disappointment)) will be
understanding.

------
brianmac
Check out Leo Babauta: <http://zenhabits.net/> Lots of great posts about
creating habits everyone is suggesting, like sleep, rest, meditation, to find
balance and letting go of stress.

~~~
moondowner
zenhabits is definitely a resource everybody should turn to. I've been
practicing some of the advices I've red there and I can say that the outcome
was very positive for me.

------
methodin
You have to give your brain a break. That doesn't necessarily mean doing
nothing but it can be doing something more along the lines of a hobby - such
as creating music, doing graphics, gardening etc...

One of the most common overlooked things with developers is the fact that your
brain strives for equilibrium. Tipping the scale too long can really have
disastrous side-effects if you aren't doing some of the things you love doing.
I broke down for nearly 2 months unable to code at all but it was the last
time that happened since these adjustments.

------
backslash777
Get out of the situation NOW, before the damage is too big to handle. Take a
week break and go somewhere far from email and phone, and use the time to
think how to restructure your work so it doesn't happen again when you get
back. You need serious restructuring and lots of delegation. Nothing is more
important than your well-being, and your company will suffer more in the long
run, if you're down.

Daily exercise helped me, try getting your pulse up, if you do this regularly
you will get much better mood, more energy and things will lighten up.

------
loceng
Get to a yoga class every day. That's your break away from the world, once per
day. That's how I first broke the cycle - I wasn't giving any actual time to
myself. Second part is if there are thoughts and feelings coming up you can't
find a solution to yourself (eg: cognitive dissonance because of the results
you see happening) then you need to talk to different people to get new
perspectives that help you get through the cognitive dissonance. Easier said
than done, but that process works for me when I am aware it's needed..

------
joelmaat
Take a break.

Become one of the inspiration junkies. Go to the gym. Work on another side of
the business. Schedule your day, leaving time away from your startup. Don't
let what's urgent mascarade around with the set of things that actually _need_
to get done. Start taking legal "smart" drugs like Piracetam, Aniracetam,
Pramiracetam, Noopept, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, Lion's Mane Mushroom, Magnesium
L-Threonate, etc.. in addition to helping you get "smarter" and increasing
your productivity/proficiency they'll give you motivation and a serene
feeling.

Meditate.

------
tripzilch
Nothing is worth risking burnout for (well, maybe saving your child or
something like that). It takes _ages_ to recover (roughly as long as you've
spent building it up, which may be years), and I'm not entirely sure if it
might leave anything permanent (wrt dealing with stress or pressure)
preventing you from crawling back up to your previous 100%.

So, think about that and act.

How exactly to break it, I'm seeing loads of great advice in the rest of this
thread so I'm not going to repeat it all. It's a different struggle for
everyone.

------
ClintonWu
Interested to read all the remedies to figure out how this can be prevented.
I'm a first-time founder starting to display some of these symptoms - the main
one for me being this feeling in my stomach every time I wake up in the
morning. A feeling of I'm not doing enough to move the ball forward combined
with a a feeling of there's too much to do, I don't even know where to start.
Sometimes it results in me laying there for another half hour, not wanting to
face anything. Finally, I'll get up and face it.

------
drumdance
I went through something similar last summer. Others have mention therapy and
medication, both of which I second. Also, look into whether you have adrenal
fatigue. I had it and the cure has been to take several supplements, notably
DHEA and rhodiola rosea.

I was good about exercising even at the depths of my burnout, but I
nonetheless still felt tired all the time. The dietary supplements have made a
profound difference. I've never felt so energetic in my life (I'm in my mid
forties).

------
paulovsk
Sleep enough. Eat well. Don't forget the fitness. You can't let the body go,
he's essential to mind.

I'd recommend some sort of mind training... just relaxing doing what other
people says is relaxing almost never helps (beach, book, etc).

Check this out [english audio]: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHjyMq6eZB8>

This one is good too: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogH3KAge6zw>

------
paulo89
Depression is bigger than work. Watch out for changes in diet or sleeping
patterns. Half days off are a possible indicator. What's the cost of seeing
your dr. and having a conversation? Not much.

Don't think it can happen to you? Read about Ben Huh at Cheezeburger.
[http://www.geekwire.com/2011/cheezburger-ceo-ben-huh-
details...](http://www.geekwire.com/2011/cheezburger-ceo-ben-huh-details-
personal-struggles-depression/)

------
dwshorowitz
Have a fun night with your team. We just had a video game, March Madness,
pizza hangout. Lot's of beer was consumed, people had a great time. The next
day our company morale was noticeably higher.

Take a step back, try to spot areas where you and your cofounder butt heads,
it most likely comes down to two things: 1) Communication 2) Expectations.

Manage your communications and expectations proactively and you'll be a much
happier company.

------
me2012
I had the same problem three years ago. I started meditating a lot, and I've
realized that my thoughts are the source of all experiences.

~~~
forkrulassail
I found HoloSync a very good introduction to meditation if you need assistance
to get 'into it'. The middle way or transcendental meditation might not always
be the solution if you already have a massively erratic and consumed
headspace.

------
Brimstone
I have been there and crashed and burned in the process. Two things that have
completely changed my perspective that I suggest is reading two books, "The
Secret of Letting Go" by Guy Finley and "The 28 Laws of Attraction" by Thomas
Leonard. You have to make a mental shift and let go of the baggage that you
feel is forcing you to do things you resent.

------
heliodor
Two things come to mind that might be your cause:

1) Not enough sleep and exercise. Get at least three consecutive days of solid
sleep and go work out. See how it changes your mood and thoughts. 2) Your co-
founder is dominant and you have no say. You don't feel ownership. There's an
imbalance of power and you're in the second seat. A lot of startups operate
this way.

------
Estragon
I hope some of the advice people have given here is helpful to you. It would
be a lot easier to advise you effectively if you gave us some more details
about specific experiences which have triggered the irritation, resentment and
desire for a break. Any suggestions made without that information are at least
a little speculative.

------
dustineichler
It's more common than you realize. I haven't necessarily found a cure all, but
talking about it... helps. Find yourself a professional mentor because this is
a career issue.

On a personal note, I was (is) feeling the same thing for a long time. You
have to decide what your life is going to look like. Pay attention to
compromising decisions.

------
kanchax
Good luck. I had a similar experience but with nothing as important as a
startup. I simply slowed the rhythm of everything. I still am dealing with
this situation but so far it ain't bad. Of course my case was not-time
dependent so that was not a problem. I think it was a mistake (cost option
wise). We'll see.

------
marcofucci
"The 4-Hour Workweek" could help: [http://www.amazon.com/The-4-Hour-Workweek-
Anywhere-Expanded/...](http://www.amazon.com/The-4-Hour-Workweek-Anywhere-
Expanded/dp/0307465357/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1332251810&sr=1-1)

The author has __some __really good points and ideas.

------
jacquesm
Go see a doctor. Now. Don't put it off.

------
respectfulanon
Take a complete change of scene for at least two weeks. Go away and spend the
time doing something that takes up your attention (rock climbing, skiing,
visiting old friends, whatever). This should make you feel human again. Then
you can hopefully at least see things in perspective.

------
amorphid
I've been there. Why do you feel burned out?

P.S. If you are my co-founder, take a vacation already. You work too much!

------
chmike
My exprience of this kind of situation is that one or more things are sucking
all your energy. What I mean by this is that it's not just about getting a
rest. What you should do is take a step back and try to see what is sucking
all your psychological energy. If you are resentful of your cofounder, then
something is not right there.

What happens in such situation is that we naturally and often unconsciously
start to think about it trying to find a way to handle it, understand what is
going on and how to solve the situation. This is going on 24/24 7/7 and this
is what is sucking your energy.

Taking a week off is an emergency protection measure you should indeed apply.
But this just puts a spatial distance between what is harming you and
yourself. Soon or later you'll have to come back to your startup. You probably
know it and you may spend this week off continuing to burn your energy
thinking about the problems.

So taking a real step back and a week off requires that you completely switch
off from the harmful context. This requires will power but you are aware that
your health is in danger now.

The second thing to do is become aware that apparently you are failing to
solve the problem by yourself the way you tried so far (probably unconsciously
with intuitive methods). So you have two options now. One is to take the step
back and, after a recovery time, reanalyse the situation rationaly by trying a
different approach you tried so far. The second is to get help from someone
who know what you are going through and can help you sort out the solution. In
both case it is only you that can identify the problems and the way out. The
help is just to help you make a difference between what is important, what is
not, what are automatic negative ideas and what is truly positive.

You got aware that something is wrong and you asked for advise. That is great
because you've done half of the way to get you out of this situation.

Last point. As other people tell you here. Take this problem very seriously
and tackle it NOW, ASAP or get the hell out of this situation if you can't
handle it. This can kill you by suicide if you don't handle it. This may sound
completely stupid and unbelievable to suicide one self, but you may get into a
depression state where the pain you feel is so strong and unbearable, the
situation seaming so hopless that sucide will look like a very rational and
logic way to stop this. You are apparently far from this stage, but this is
what you'll find at the end of the road if you don't solve the situation. I
don't want to scare you. It is just to show you what is in the balance and why
you should react and take it very serioulsy. The earlier you detect it, the
easier you can adjust your course to avoid the dead end.

------
lucasjake
Redhat, people care about you. Focus on those who take care of you the most.
For many of us that is family, but if not family, your friends away from
startupland. If not them, we'll help. You never forfeit any option, especially
when you keep yourself healthy.

------
ZanderEarth32
Depending on what stage you are guys are in your startup should be able to
survive a week without you. What if something happened that forced your or
your cofounder to be gone for X amount of time? You need safeguards up to
protect against the unexpected.

------
ssylee
Sounds like it's time for you to move on. You need to take care of yourself
before everything else. If your cofounder has any common sense at all, s/he
would've told you to take as much time off as you need to fix yourself up.

------
Tawheed
I burned out late last year after finishing our accelerator program. I took
some time to reset and then came back with a vengeance. I'm happy to grab a
drink/talk on the phone and share what worked for me: tk@toutapp.com.

------
debacle
A half day isn't enough. You need to have at least one night where you go to
sleep not thinking about work. Whether that's a 4 day weekend or a week of
vacation, you need it.

An ounce of prevention...something something.

------
antmaper
I drive a startup with a Bipolar cofounder and confess ins't easy task. I am
learning how to get self control and focus on our target.

------
c1sc0
Yes, you can talk to someone. You can talk to me, FWIW. I've been there. Feel
free to contact me anytime, email is in my profile.

------
karl11
Start exercising.

------
tsieling
If they need you and you don't take care of yourself to prevent burnout, then
they'll be let down.

------
glide007
advise i would prefer to give has already been communicated.

so I would just say you are not alone!

------
redhat
wow. I had no idea I'd get such a response - thank you all for the support,
I'm making my way through all your comments and will try many of the things
suggested.

------
carterschonwald
Try out all the suggestions mentioned here. All of them.

------
munyukim
Take time to celebrate what you have achieved so far.

------
rheide
I take walks :)

~~~
scottmey
I second this. Especially with coding, I've found the answers to my
philosophical questions, and my logic quandaries more than a handful of times.

Also, make sure you're surrounded by motivating people, or atleast people that
get you thinking. I lack this sometimes in the work environment and it's a
drag...

------
nsomaru
This type of fatigue is usually caused by selfishness and excessive thinking
about yourself.

Also, if you are motivated entirely by making money and are not inspired by
what you are doing, this could be a cause.

Find out why you're doing what you're doing, reaffirm it, and it will inspire
you again. Stop sulking. A physical break is not going to help if you don't
sort yourself out mentally.

I know it's hard to swallow, but try it.

~~~
DanBC
Is English your first language?

You could have worded your post much better than you did.

> _This type of fatigue is usually caused by selfishness and excessive
> thinking about yourself._

"There's evidence to show that patterns of negative thinking, about yourself
or about the situation you're in, can cause depression".

> _Stop sulking._

I can't rewrite this and keep any kind of meaning. Maybe "Use Cognitive
Behaviour Therapy to learn to stop negative thoughts, and create positive
thoughts".

> _I know it's hard to swallow_

Yes, it was pretty offensive and not helpful.

~~~
outworlder
Sometimes, a metaphorical slap in the face is the right prescription. Not from
a stranger on the internet, though.

And usually not when the person has already acknowledged that he's got issues
and is asking for help.

