

VW Redefines car with a 170-mpg diesel hybrid - rav_biradar
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/09/volkswagen-l1-concept/

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Zaak
I'm sure the aerodynamic wheel fairings are really good for fuel efficiency,
but I predict they'll be a lot smaller on any production car that comes from
this idea. People do like being able to drive over speed bumps after all.

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yesimahuman
And they also look rather strange. Not a big deal, but it could keep people
from buying it. I know I wouldn't want those things on my car, they look like
something straight out of a bad sci-fi movie.

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gamble
Interesting announcement, given the comments Audi of America's president made
recently that only idiots would buy a gas hybrid.

For the average person, a plain old diesel is probably the best value at the
moment. Eventually, though, I suspect that hybrids will converge on a Volt-
style drivetrain mated with a turbodiesel. The same arrangement has been used
on diesel locomotives for years.

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hughprime
To be fair, he didn't say that only an idiot would buy a gas hybrid, he said
that the Chevy Volt was a car for idiots. Still a fairly inappropriate and, I
think, inaccurate statement, but not in direct conflict with other parts of VW
the way you might suggest.

The trouble with the idea that everyone is gonna use diesel is... what are we
gonna do with all the regular gasoline? IIRC fractioning of crude oil produces
a certain amount of diesel, a certain amount of gasoline, a certain amount of
kerosene and so forth, so _somebody_ might as well be burning that gasoline.

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natrius
How is the statement inaccurate? What is the value proposition for the Volt?
$45,000 makes no sense, and even with the government subsidies, you won't come
out on top. Most existing hybrids don't even make sense on cost basis.

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hughprime
The price isn't announced yet, so it's dumb to make pronouncements based on a
rumoured price point. I've also heard rumours of prices as low as $30K, at
which point it becomes pretty compelling.

Even if it is $45K I'm not going to deride everyone who wants to spend that
kind of money on a fancy high-tech vehicle that under most driving conditions
burns hardly any fuel while still being versatile enough to take anywhere as
an idiot. Hell, you can spend twice that on a far less versatile Tesla
Roadster and still not be an idiot.

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natrius
"Henderson conceded the cost of building a Volt will be expensive, about
$40,000 per vehicle. But he said the vehicle will qualify for a $7,500 tax
credit, which will reduce the vehicle cost by that amount for consumers."

[http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?pos...](http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?postversion=2009081108)

Note that the figure is the manufacturing cost, not the price. The price will
be higher.

Hybrids and electric cars are status symbols. The premium is more than you
save in operating costs. At that price point, you can buy cars that are more
effective status symbols, if that's what you're going for. Buying the Volt is
a bit idiotic, and it'd be more idiotic without the subsidies that the rumored
cost you cited includes.

The Volt is not fancy. It _is_ high tech, but the appeal of most high tech
gadgets is from the experience of using them. Driving a Volt will be
marginally different from driving a Chevy Cruze.

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dtap
_VW says the L1 is perfectly safe, with the driver and passenger safely
ensconced in a carbon fiber safety cell and protected by head and side-curtain
airbags. The front of the car features an aluminum crash structure._

Saying it is safe and passing NHTSA are two extremely different things. That
is why the smart costs so much.

As a side note, some similar ideas have gotten street-legality by being
officially motorcycles. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corbin_Sparrow>

~~~
electromagnetic
Passing the NHTSA and being safe are two extremely different things, in that
the former certainly doesn't mean the latter in terms of customer
satisfaction.

Smart cars passed the NHTSA safety checks, but the NHTSA still brought out a
dire warning due to it only receiving a 3-star (now considered rare for
vehicles) in a passenger side crash. It passed, but I doubt anyone wants to
know that it's an entire grade less-safe than nearly any other vehicle on the
road when it comes to passenger safety.

I'd trust an 1L further than a Smart due to the ability for a large side
impact zone relative to _any_ vehicle on the road while maintaining safety
front and back. Like any car below a mid-size, I wouldn't buy it unless it had
_at least_ 4-star minimum, and I'd seriously reconsider anything without a
5-star. If the 1L gets all 5's, I'd buy it without a doubt.

My concern with NHTSA tests is that they're performed using an 'average' car
(IE mid-size). A mid-size with a 4-star fairs much better against a pickup
than a compact with a 4-star, when in reality it shouldn't. It's just a simple
matter of well, matter and velocity. Then you've got to consider material
strengths, aluminum used in car bodies typically has to be twice as thick as
required to match the strength of steel due to it being _too thin_. This means
aluminum vehicle frames are expected to increase vehicle safety two-fold, and
I believe if used in the same dimensions as steel it would be a seven-fold
increase in strength.

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sp332
Somebody got some numbers wrong: "20 kilowatts (26 horsepower); and 'Sport,'
with 29 kilowatts (39 horsepower)". 20 kW == 0.26 HP, 29 kW == 0.39 HP.

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johnnybgoode
I find it hilarious that two people responded with the exact same phrase:
"Google disagrees"

We might as well automate this process!

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jrockway
Or, you know... read other comments before replying. My comment beat the other
by an hour :)

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johnnybgoode
Actually I think it was by a minute, not an hour. Not that it really matters
now...

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biohacker42
And what are they going to do to get more diesel pumps around the good old US
of A? And the perception of diesel as dirty in the good old US of A? And why
does it seem like there's an unwritten law that any sufficiently fuel
efficient car has to look like a robot turd?

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RyanMcGreal
Because we all know that Americans are the only people on earth who buy cars.

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biohacker42
Diesels are already popular in Europe, so there's no problems there. I'm not
sure about the rest of the world, but I suspect diesel is popular in most
places outside the US. The US is the place built around cars, the US is the
place that spends the most on oil, and the US is the place with an atypical
dislike for diesel and a lack of diesel pumps. Thus for this car to make the
biggest difference it has to become popular in the US. And while anyone who
can read English can read Wired on the Internet, Wired is a US publication.

But other then that no, nothing US specific about this.

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electromagnetic
Here in Canada I see diesel nearly everywhere (certainly not compared to the
UK and Europe where 3 or 4 fuel prices are listed on a sign, I have no clue
why they don't do the same here besides corporations being as smart as a
thanksgiving turkey), certainly in the GTA it's at every pumping station.

I've seen a fair amount of Jetta's around where I live carrying the TDI
symbol, so diesels are definitely selling. I believe info about biodiesel is
helping promote this, but I believe it will still be considerable time before
the NA market is as accepting of diesel as the European market, which I find
_seriously_ disturbing due to the fact that southern US has been perfect for
diesels since their invention (high temperatures meant starting was never an
issue in winter, and the higher fuel density meant that you didn't lose as
much fuel to evaporation, but then fuel-efficiency is still a near alien word
to many in NA).

