
Don't Blame H-1B Workers for Woes - peter123
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/feb2009/tc2009029_333899.htm
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GeneralMaximus
The argument that H1-B workers are bad for America is, IMO, completely
irrational. Whoever is in support of this argument is implying that people who
are smart enough to get jobs in some of the top corporations[1] in America, or
have made it to one of the top American universites, are _bad_ for the
country. I'll repeat that for effect: _smart people are bad for America_. WTF?

Let's look at the situation from my POV, just for laughs.

I'm an Indian. I've been playing with technology since I was 13. I've spent
hundereds of hours of my life learning how to program and cooking up small
scripts and apps for simple tasks. I've spent sleepless nights trying to get a
Linux install working. I've ignored school, college and exams because I wanted
to be the first one to solve some programming puzzle online. Why? Because I'm
passionate about programming. I want get a job doing smart stuff for a smart
employer[2], and I don't expect to get that job in India.

The argument that immigrants are hurting America implies that America should
just show the finger to me and give that smart job to someone who doesn't
really enjoy doing it[3] _just because that guy was born in America and I was
born in India_.

"" Enjoy having your standard of living averaged with the Third World. ""

Reading that statement just makes me sad.

[1] : I mean a _really_ good job at, say, Google. Nobody leaves India
thinking, "I'm going to found a Web 2.0 startup in America.".

[2] : ... or start up a company. Not sure about how friendly India is to
startups compared to America. There have certainly been many tech startups
sprouting up in India in the past few years, but what they had to do to get
where they are is still unclear.

[3] : This is not to imply that Americans are stupid. This is just a
hypothetical situation.

~~~
dmolnar
Responding to your footnote [2], it would be interesting to hear what
obstacles are in the way of doing a start-up in India. Are they the kind of
things that can be worked around once and then the effort amortized over
multiple start-up companies? If so, maybe there is an opportunity for
something like YC in India that guides early stage people through the hoops
required to start their own companies.

~~~
braindead_in
They are YC clones coming up all over here. Some of them invest, some dont.
But none of them have anybody's of PG's stature behind them. So dunno whether
any of them will ever succeed.

IMHO, incubators are a bit too early for the Indian ecosystem. Is very
immature right now. Especially for first time entrepreneurs. Severe lack of
talent and mentorship, angels are few and far between, Series A or further
rounds, if you make it that far, happen at low valuations and successful exits
are very rare. Add to that the very low internet penetration rate here. So
focusing on the Indian market is a non starter. If you are targeting the
global market, then its best to take advantage of the valley ecosystem.
Eventually you'll have to have an office there if you want to succeed.

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tallanvor
It's understandable (if misguided) that people think that turning away foreign
workers will help matters significantly in this country, but it's definitely
not the answer. America does need to make sure that any foreign workers being
brought into the country are being paid prevailing wages, and are not being
used to help cut costs.

Of course, since I'm an American working overseas, I suppose it would be a bit
hypocritical of me to support further limits on foreigners working in the
States! I would like to see agreements between the U.S., Canada, and the EU to
help make it easier for their respective citizens to work in other countries
(obviously the EU has already done this within their member states). --That
would provide more options to Americans as well as to others.

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huherto
The U.S. like any country, needs to look for ways of attracting talent. Sadly,
migrating to the U.S. is very hard and it can take many years. I know people
who have been waiting for more than 10 years. You cannot make any life plans
with that type of waiting.

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kyochan
I am for the elimination of H-1B visas only if it means an even more lenient
immigration policy.

Free trade means the free movement of capital AND labor.

~~~
asciilifeform
Enjoy having your standard of living averaged with the Third World. The best
remedy for Libertarianism is experiencing the consequences personally.

~~~
rglullis
Canada and Australia have pretty open immigration policies and their standard
of living is higher than in the US.

~~~
asciilifeform
How many Canadian or Australian H1Bs have you met?

~~~
potatolicious
My parents were both immigrants who came to Canada on "skilled labour
immigration" policies. We enjoy pay that's well above the Canadian average
(read: we're not working for pennies), and within my family we have 2 masters
degrees, 3 undergrads, and 1 soon-to-be PhD.

Overall I think we have contributed to raising the Canadian standard of
living, instead of detracting from it, and I wish that the US has the
foresight to implement these policies - as a startup-minded individual I'd
rather be there than here.

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geebee
What do you guys think of using patent applications as a measure of
innovation? This seems common among researchers, and I can see why - it's easy
to measure patents, whereas it's hard to track non-patented types of
innovation (such as contributions to open source). But is this a case of
looking for your keys under the lamp post because that's where the light is
brightest?

~~~
smanek
I don't think that patents are a particularly good proxy for innovation - I've
never even tried to get patents for a lot of the most cutting-edge stuff I've
worked on (that would, in my lay opinion, be worthy of being granted a
patent). And we all know the anecdotes of companies that patent every trivial
modification they implement on standard algorithms or data structures.

On the other hand, I do know at least one scientist who checks out all the
patents granted to a competing lab to keep tabs on the sort of research they
do. He claims that, in our field, patents are a far better indicator of the
amount of effort a lab is expending on a topic than papers published or press
releases put out. _shrugs_

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tptacek
Alternate explanation, which would refute the thesis of this article: H1-B
workers are disproportionately likely to work for companies with aggressive IP
processes, like IBM and Microsoft, because those companies are also aggressive
about recruiting H1-B workers.

~~~
old-gregg
I believe most of those are patents filed by US graduate/PhD students of
foreign origin working for big corporations either via H1b or using their
student visas. These are the individuals we want to keep.

The "dark side" of H1b program is various ethnic sweatshops often filled with
mediocre talent unable to find work anywhere else. I have known a person in
Boston area who, along with 4 roommates, lived in his "owners" (H1b sponsor)
basement where they were looking for contracts for themselves, so the sponsor
could sell them later for a percentage. This crowd doesn't file patents.

Another, less evil "H1b business" is what many 3rd grade no-name universities
do: they bring people from all over the world using student visas, give them
loans, put them through 6-8 month Java crash-course, after which students are
supposed to find themselves H1b employment. When they do, they have to pay
$10-30K to their "school" while completing their "education" online (the
requirement that lets these institutions maintain their legal university
status).

I suspect that these shady H1b sponsors take up as much as half of all H1b
visas issued to programmers year after year. As I said, big companies rarely
bring people from overseas, they like to hire the best foreign graduates from
good schools instead, where H1b works as a temporary bridge between a student
visa and a green card, and that was the original idea behind it, IIRC.

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coolnewtoy
"Kerr and Lincoln built algorithms that recognize likely foreign names on U.S.
patent applications."

This doesn't seem very definitive to me.

~~~
ja2ke
Aside from that one patent filed by Crazy Horse, it came up 100%. Crazy.

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kailashbadu
What beats me is why so many Americans are against the H1B while barely anyone
bats an eyelid at the Diversity Visas.

I assume it would make more sense for the US to cut down randomly allotted
Diversity Visas and lift the bar on H1B . Or perhaps put in place the
friendlier High-skilled Immigration policies. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial
to bring in an expert than some Tom, Dick, and Harry.

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imasr
I don't think this is a matter of numbers, but about what America would like
for its future. A trip to Ellis Island may help remind the bases of a nation
built upon immigration.

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known
Most of the H1B workers have colluded with sponsoring companies and the
clients. And H1B workers are not creating new jobs in America.

