
The Panama Papers prove it: we can afford a universal basic income - mortenjorck
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/07/panama-papers-taxes-universal-basic-income-public-services
======
cogware
This article is pure polemical, without any justification for its claims (not
even a back-of-the-envelope estimate of what kind increase in taxes would
result from ending offshore tax evasion). Outrage is not a substitute for
mathematics or economics.

I personally support UBI, but we need to ensure that it's sustainable.

~~~
tracker1
Well, what is really needed is a tax on international transactions... the
moving of anything in, and currency out of the country. That would make
evasion and funds shifting far less attractive. Beyond that would be what
would be for some a very high base tax rate, universally... something close to
50%. I just have a problem with more than half of what you make going to
taxes.

From there, funds should be dispersed into accounts... A portion would go to
every tax paying citizen (filing income tax required for prior year) as a UBI.
Everyone would get the same amount, every week.

Of the rest part would be distributed to states based on land size. Part would
go to states based on population. The rest would be towards any federal
spending...

In that, the budget would have to fit the means based on a percent of tax
collected first... that would shift incentives a bit.

A UBI would also allow for _many_ state and federal welfare programs and
subsidies to be nuked. A larger portion multiplier could be applied to
citizens over 65, then again at 70... To put those going into retirement years
in a better position, displacing Social Security.

~~~
mc32
Taxing international transactions like international commerce and small things
like travel? I don't think that would be good. We've been spending the better
part of the last seven decades eliminating barriers to international
transactions because of the problems tariffs caused... This would be a step
backwards in that direction.

~~~
tracker1
It can be incredibly easy and transparent... I'm not saying you can't order
something internationally, only that it's taxed at the transaction... that's
pretty close to how VAT systems work. Only that the tax is at the currency
exchange, not the goods, to prevent cheating the system.

------
steve19
"A larger income, to ensure that no American fell into absolute abject poverty
– say, $12,000 a year – would cost around $3.6tn. That is a big number, but
one that once again seems far more reasonable when considered through the lens
of the Panama Papers and the scandal of global tax evasion"

Regardless of what you think about UBI, the Panama Papers do not prove it
could or could not work.

The US Federal Budget is $3.8 trillion. There is no way tax not being paid in
Panama is coming even close to the $3.6 tn they mention.

This article is just click bait.

~~~
majewsky
> The US Federal Budget is $3.8 trillion. There is no way tax not being paid
> in Panama is coming even close to the $3.6 tn they mention.

1\. The 3.6tn figure is for the whole world. The US will only be a chunk of
that, although probably a large chunk.

2\. Why do you not consider these numbers plausible? On what factual basis can
you dispute that the US is not in fact missing out on, say, 20-40% of their
possible tax income because of tax evasion?

~~~
theandrewbailey
There are a little over 300,000,000 people in the USA.

$12,000 × >300,000,000 = >$3,600,000,000,000

There are a little over 7 billion people on earth:

$12,000 × >7,000,000,000 = >$84,000,000,000,000,000

------
akhatri_aus
Assets in cash are a stock not a flow. What happens when it runs out? It's
surely not sustainable to do this.

I'd hardly use the phrasing that it 'proves it'.

------
grahamburger
A variant on UBI that I would like to see explored is to make the payments
conditional on doing some kind of community service. Something like cleaning a
park or volunteering at a school or something. Maybe a 1-3 hour / week
commitment. Not as a way to save money so much as to strengthen communities
and give people a way to contribute.

~~~
jacalata
Oh like UBI but with all the disadvantages of not being universal.

~~~
grahamburger
There are also disadvantages to being universal. Let's not pretend that the
criticisms of ubi are invalid.

~~~
jacalata
Sure, but let's be clear that a conditional basic income is very different to
a universal basic income, not just some minor tweak on the idea.

------
alphakappa
I fail to see what the proof is. Apart from plenty of opinion, this article
fails to present any numbers from the Panama Papers that would prove that we
could pay a basic income year after year.

------
omonra
This article is retarded on almost every level. I generally detest the
Guardian but at least respect them for intellectual consistency. This is just
plain atrocious thinking.

1\. The fact that rich people from Russia and China hide their wealth in
Panama means nothing about the US. There are actually no Americans on that
list ([http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/panama-papers/why-are-
ameri...](http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/panama-papers/why-are-americans-
not-included-panama-papers-n551081)).

2\. The whole point of UBI is that it can come from savings on OTHER programs
- such as welfare, food stamps, unemployment insurance, etc. Therefore we
don't just take the number of citizens of a country as the _new_ cost - but we
also have to subtract savings from eliminating the other programs (and their
administration).

------
tlarkworthy
Totally illogical, how do tax loopholes for the rich get affected by giving
everyone a basic income? The middle class will pay more tax and give it to the
poor. The super rich will continue paying no tax...

The worse thing is the article is titled "proof". Where is this proof? It be
nice if the rich did pay for a universal basic income.

------
Focalise
The opportunistic Guardian strikes again.

------
dustin999
When did self-sufficiency lose its luster as a virtue?

