
Peers call for a pardon for Alan Turing [video] - ra
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-lords-23378209
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TazeTSchnitzel
Why not pardon all the other men who were persecuted? Their criminal records
should be cleared.

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strongvigilance
Indeed - the current proposal suggests that the persecution was only wrong
because he was a war hero, and not because of the injustice of it.

I'd imagine there must be some victims who are still alive today.

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mtrimpe
According to the video 16.000 of them are still alive and it seems they
apparently already have been granted some form of pardon.

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eshvk
Are these symbolic apologies, pardons any good practically? They keep coming
up especially in the colonial setting where governments apologize for what
happened a few decades ago. It feels like a zero cost (apart from parliament
costs i.e.) way to absolve their own personal guilt.

In the real world, does it actually help the oppressed?

(Who wants to place bets on an official apology to the families of
Snowden/Manning coming up in a few decades after they have been caught and
"justice delivered" to them.)

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stinkytaco
I think they represent a government that is willing to look at its past and
say "we were wrong". Too often we've seen "Mistakes were made", which is a way
of skirting responsibility. At least this shows a society willing to
acknowledge its faults and publically address them.

~~~
eshvk
Does it really? It seems like more of a "I apologized, now hurry up and accept
it" kind of gig. A true apology is one where people learn from it.

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stinkytaco
What do you want them to do? Just ignore it? As much as we might want to we
can't change history. Times change, social norms change and hopefully laws
change with them (gay marriage is not legal in the UK, for example), but the
best we can really do is say, "Yeah, we fucked up." and hopefully that creates
a meaningful dialogue.

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eshvk
I think it is useless. It is about as meaningful as Bush standing in front of
a banner that says "Mission accomplished".

Yes, you are right. No one can change history. That is not my point. My point
is to emphasize that the gesture is meaningless; if people want to actually
admit they fucked up, they should actually prove that they learnt from the
mistake and do something about current problems. Otherwise, it is just a big
hoopla about nothing.

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stinkytaco
So the huge strides made for gay rights in the UK (i.e. the legalization of
gay marriage) is not doing something about current problems?

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scoot
Previous discussion [1]. I didn't think HN allowed duplicate URLs within such
a short timeframe (unless posted with a variation to the URL), but good to see
it getting a proper airing, as it got modded off the front page in short order
yesterday (possibly because the debate got a bit acrimonious).

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6071596](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6071596)

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ceautery
People are really good at apologizing for the atrocities of the previous
generation. This is a pretty empty gesture, and doesn't forgive the UK for
driving to suicide a man who saved thousands of British lives.

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dllthomas
While I do agree with what you've said, it is also worthwhile nothing that the
UK today is obviously not the same people.

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eshvk
Yes, they discriminate against a different class of people. Immigrants. They
are different yet they are the same. Learning from your mistakes means
minimizing discrimination wherever it exists. Apologies are empty otherwise.

To emphasize my point further (which I briefly illustrated in another
comment). This apology, I argue, is the same class of apologies as say an
apology by the U.K. for atrocities committed in Kenya [1] during the uprising
and then going forth into Iraq in the same decade.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mau_Mau_Uprising#Deaths_and_atr...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mau_Mau_Uprising#Deaths_and_atrocities)

~~~
dllthomas
That earlier discrimination was done by other people is good reason not to
blame these people for that earlier discrimination. It is no reason at all not
to blame these people for present discrimination.

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eshvk
If the current people are not to be blamed, I would argue that itself renders
the apology meaningless. It would be like you going on a murder spree and then
me announcing that I apologize for a random stranger's murder spree.

If they are to be blamed and willingly accept some measure of blame in order
to apologize, then their apology is again empty unless they actually have
taken steps to rectify the situation around them. (Which in discriminatory
elements is identical to the previous situation.)

Ultimately, I think it is theatre. An easy way for people who are not willing
to solve problems around them: Yes, problems which also include discrimination
against gays right now; yet want some way to assuage themselves of guilt. Well
fuck that.

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dllthomas
Recognition of what went wrong in the past is appropriate. Use it as an
opportunity to point out what's still going wrong in the present; that's not
the same thing as blaming the current generation for the errors of earlier
ones, but neither is it blindly applauding while ignoring the things still
needing fixing.

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acd
What angers me the forced chemical treatment of Alan Turings homosexuality
indirect was a crime against humanity as he was a genius. We will never know
what else he could have invented.

This would have been similar to giving other geniuses such as Einstein, Gauss,
Tesla bad medicine which would have destroyed them.

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unix-dude
Certainly an appropriate gesture, though "Pardon" could be taken the wrong way
by some.

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malkarouri
He already had an official apology from the prime minister in 2009. Many
people want the conviction off the record, and it had to be done through a
pardon because he cannot appeal or be tried again, and the law in effect at
the time was not violated.

The petition to pardon is here
[http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/23526](http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/23526)

~~~
teamonkey
A pardon in the UK won't clear a criminal record - it's a 'forgiveness of the
crime'.

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znowi
I noted in the video that the House is almost empty. Is everyone on a summer
leave?

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objclxt
Not quite, there's a week or so to go, but it's not unusual for it to be that
empty.

The bill is in second reading, which is the first opportunity to debate the
subject. Those attending are therefore those with an interest in the bill and
who want to speak in the debate (or are there for other business that day).
There's no need for everyone to attend.

The Lords are a little different to their MP counterparts - firstly, there's a
_lot_ more of them (if all the eligible Lords actually turned up you'd have a
very hard job fitting them in the chamber), and they also don't get paid a
salary. Rather, they are paid an allowance for each day they actually attend.

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escaped_hn
Obligatory "Pardon implies he did something wrong post". they should
apologize.

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eksith
Indeed. Absolving him of any wrongdoing in the first place would have been
appropriate, but pardon may be the only recourse to push through the House.

Ironic that we now have _Sir_ Ian McKellen and _Sir_ Elton John, two men who
would have met the same fate in Turing's time.

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philhippus
The fact that we have "Sirs" Ian and Elton is proof that we have moved on. It
is a different world since Turing's time. We also used to burn people alive
for heresy. An official apology was gesture enough on this matter.

