
How to lose time and money - tyn
http://www.paulgraham.com/selfindulgence.html
======
ggwicz
"People fright at the concept of losing their money, yet they slave away their
time without a second thought."

-Seneca the Younger, from Letters from a Stoic (highly recommended)

I think slaving away doing something you hate is far more harmful than
"wasting" time having fun. I get more out of playing hacky sack and/or
listening to podcasts than any homework or school work.

So, in relation to this article, I think we should maybe consider "losing
time" as doing _anything_ that you deeply don't want to do but are doing just
to get more money.

The relationship between time and money is a fascinating one. Great article
PG.

~~~
JabavuAdams
> I get more out of playing hacky sack and/or listening to podcasts than any
> homework or school work.

Maybe you're studying the wrong thing?

~~~
ggwicz
I'm in high school. I'm not knocking education, I'm very thankful for it.

------
fferen
I think this ties into the idea of MMORPGs. I used to play them a lot until I
realized they were not fun, just addictive; they make you feel like you're
accomplishing something by leveling and gaining skills, when really it's only
your character that's improving - you're not getting better at anything.

~~~
jdh
I felt this way a decade ago when my wife and I rented Season 1 of the show
24. I never enjoyed it, but felt strangely compelled to find out what happened
in the next episode, and would stay up too late watching. After one season I
decided that was enough of that addiction.

~~~
5hoom
I really hated the politics and rhetoric of 24, but was somehow compelled
beyond my will to watch every single episode. I knew it was unhealthy as I'd
stay up way too late and ended up getting weird & anxious (head full of of
right-wing fantasy combined with prolonged sleep depravation).

Unlike you I didn't kick the addiction & i've now seen every season.

Damn you and your insidious cliff-hangers Jack Bauer! :P

~~~
Joakal
I didn't watch it because it got cliché pretty fast like LOST. The worst
offender I reckon was Dragonball Z [0]. I realised this pattern and that
greatly put me off many games and movies, eg WoW, FarmVille, etc. It was a
grind. I want something novel.

[0] Do: Scream, build up tension, to be continued, until Infinity. Replace
scream with drama (twists).

~~~
Natsu
Ouch. I watched that back on TV a decade ago when I had no idea what I was
getting into. Longest "15 minutes" ever. They're supposed to be fighting on a
planet that's about to explode... but the planet patiently waits to blow up
until their fight is over... which takes almost forever. Ugh.

------
goldmab
If Paul Graham realized that people can easily lose lots of money by
investing, why did he devote himself to investing large amounts of his own
money in high-risk businesses?

I'm not being facetious, I just think that seems contradictory. If I had a lot
of money and that same knowledge, I would invest very conservatively.

~~~
mlinsey
The first couple YC batches were small enough that the money invested was
probably a very small portion of what PG/Robert/Trevor earned from Viaweb.

For later batches, it had become evident that YC's model was promising, and YC
also raised money from outside LP's.

~~~
jronkone
What's an LP?

~~~
sharadgopal
Limited Partners

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_partnership>

------
zipdog
Sometimes I think the feeling of getting "basically nothing" done by the end
of the day is not the right timeframe - there are projects that have gone on
for weeks that ultimately were a complete waste of time. But while working
through those projects I felt something productive was happening, which made
it difficult to think of them as "basically nothing". I'm not talking about
failed ventures that could have turned into something great, these projects
were pretty much always going to amount to nothing (they just appeared at the
outset to be different to what they were)

~~~
jseliger
_Sometimes I think the feeling of getting "basically nothing" done by the end
of the day is not the right timeframe - there are projects that have gone on
for weeks that ultimately were a complete waste of time._

I suspect pg means that he spent the day checking / responding to e-mails,
reading HN, maybe paying some bills, noodling around the Internet, checking
e-mail again, and then discovering that it's getting close to bed time, rather
than working on long-term projects where the work he's doing hasn't
immediately borne fruit.

The Internet is particularly insidious in this respect, because reading HN,
looking at the NYT, and so forth can feel work-like without actually
accomplishing anything substantial.

~~~
_delirium
_The Internet is particularly insidious in this respect, because reading HN,
looking at the NYT, and so forth can feel work-like without actually
accomplishing anything substantial._

It's true, but it also builds vague background knowledge in a hard-to-quantify
way (and I'm honestly not sure how it stacks up to the time invested). I
_very_ frequently find myself drawing on knowledge that I ran across during
internet time-wasting, whether it was a relevant article I found on HN, or a
Wikipedia article I found in one of those random-walk-through-link sessions
(or the journal articles I found via the Wikipedia articles...). On the other
hand, I also spend a lot of time "keeping up with the internet", so it's not
free. But it's certainly shown up in papers I've published in my day job.

It's an interesting tradeoff; I'd say I'm less concentrated and diligent than
most of my colleagues on what I'm "supposed to be doing", but I'm also more
broadly aware of what's going on outside of our little academic bubble. They
get more done on their main projects, but I'm the person to come to if you
want to be pointed to relevant articles/libraries/demos/posts on $topic_foo.
It's not even so much that it saves me time researching later, as that I'm not
sure I'd even be able to make some of the cross-connections between subjects
without this undirected information-gathering.

------
Arro
I think for me this manifests itself in wasting time on reddit and twitter.
Whenever I have a blank chrome tab, my unconscious reaction is to punch in one
of these time-wasters.

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antirez
Dealing with a shitload of emails is even considered to be the only social
acceptable way to work in IT, so that losing time is now institutional. Rebel.

------
Rinum
I feel the same way about watching TV all day, except replace TV with reddit
x.x

------
orky56
This is really a question of short-term gain versus long-term gain as well as
tasks versus goals. For short-term fulfillment, we can entertain ourselves or
keep ourselves occupied in some manner, regardless of whether it's productive.

The key is figuring out how it fits into our overall strategy or goals. Is
that activity or task contributing to that long-term gain? More importantly,
am I actively managing it as opposed to going on blind auto-pilot (e.g. for
that investment or project)?

There's no substitute for hard work, just as there's no substitute for self-
awareness.

~~~
sgarman
I like this comment more then the article. The terms "waste time" are used but
what does that mean? How do you define wasting time? Easy, you measure what
you were doing to your long term goals. I't is easy to say that "playing game
x" is wasting time, unless your goal is to be the worlds best player.

Of course if you set bad long term goals for yourself you maybe always be
"wasting time."

------
gabaix
One of my alarms is looking at my long-term objectives and see if my work made
me move in the right direction. I have my objectives written down in a
prominent place, so I can make sure I stay focused.

------
Andi
This is a very important article. Today, many people don't know anymore what
well-spent time is. Distractions are everywhere around us ... but if you
overcome them you are probably still on the wrong path. Everybody gets in this
trap. One must learn and try to get out. Often, a conservative view combined
with a high degree of openness is the only way to survive in this jungle of
attention and still leave a trace in the dynamic space of tech.

------
johnl
I always thought that the best way to avoid losing a lot of money is to
diversify and avoid leverage. Derivatives is leverage big time, it's
speculation, not investing, you can lose much more than you invested.
Diversify and avoiding leverage as a VC would be to invest a relatively small
amount of money over many potential companies. So can avoiding leverage to
conserve your investments work the same way with time? Leverage as a small
company might be like sub'ing out your work to others. I've never read
anything positive with that approach. How about at the personal level of the
article - some wasteful activities can be avoided but stuff like email is not
going away. So leverage this down time by multitasking. It would take me 4
hours of planning for 2 hour of programming. While I wade thought these emails
I am also going to think about, plan, research, and write down what my 2 hours
of programming is going to be. During these non productive downtimes, I can
get really boring jobs done, the time passes quicker, and I have a head start
when my productive time starts.

------
aclements18
I think a good simple way to determine whether I'm doing fake work or not is
to ask myself two questions, "Is this challenging?" then "will this help me
reach my goals?"

I find that if I say no to either then I'm probably doing fake work (or doing
real work poorly).

------
JoeAltmaier
But is it actionable? I have to answer email, sometimes.

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derpapst
That's why my wife and I abandoned TV long time ago. First week was hard, but
after that we have always been happy with how we spend our time.

------
teyc
very timely advice. I was just thinking about investing a chunk of change.
Thanks.

~~~
ericdykstra
There's nothing wrong with investing, just investing foolishly.

~~~
teyc
or being too optimistic, or relying on bad advice.

~~~
ericdykstra
Are those things not being foolish?

~~~
teyc
Yes. Of course.

I happen to prefer more specific descriptions of what may go wrong.

------
gbog
This short essay is not pg at his best in my view. Spending time having fun is
Plain Good, and necessary, even for the most focused startup founder. But
watching TV don't count obviously. Playing cards with friends at a terasse
does.

~~~
dkokelley
There are many positive activities that can be both productive and fun,
including a card game with friends. In that case, you are investing in to
those relationships and fulfilling a very basic human desire for
socialization.

It's not that you're not getting anything done. You're just getting different
things done. Compare that to a day in front of the TV. Can you say you've
gotten anything out of it? Did you learn anything? Were you able to relieve
stress or relax? Perhaps in small quantities TV can provide those benefits,
but would trading your entire day be worth it?

Now to take your card playing to an extreme, would it be beneficial for
someone like the president to spend an entire day playing cards with non-
political friends? Sure the president needs a vacation every once in a while,
but assume that this is not a vacation day. There are many more important
things that should be done, and even with the relaxation and socialization
benefits that card playing with friends has, I believe the president's
"wasting time" alarm would go off. There are elections to win and speeches to
give. But what about spending an entire day reviewing a minor bill? Sure,
bills are important. After all, the president should know about what new laws
are being considered. Even so, an entire day _could_ go by without the
president thinking "this is a waste of time". After all, he's not playing.
He's working.

~~~
gbog
> [playing cards] you are investing in to those relationships and fulfilling a
> very basic human desire for socialization.

I think your point of view, and pg's, is very utilitarian. Utilitarianism has
its uses in many human activities, including writing code, but should not be
invoked when talking about playing cards with friends. When I play card, I do
NOT "invest" in relationships, I have no intent to fulfill anything. I am just
having a great time with friends. Playing cards, or fishing, or chatting idly,
is just a way to spend time doing nothing. And doing nothing, ie spending time
without any "investment intent", is the way to enjoy fully your time.

Take another case: if you spend time reading a lengthy novel, say Proust, what
is it for? Do you read it because you want to tell your friends you read it?
Do you read it because you think it is an "investment", adding up to your
knowledge of world literature? Do you read it because you want to learn how to
write a novel? Learn about Proust? Understand why so many people admire this
book? NONE of these reason is valid. All of them are "intents", "investments".
All of them will actually destroy in the egg the only valid outcome of reading
this novel, which is pure reading pleasure. (You'll have to pass some barriers
to feel this pleasure, in the beginning)

The same holds for painting, music, etc. If you go to a Concert hall listening
to Mozart or go to the Louvre and take this activity as an investment in your
knowledge of art and your ability to talk cleverly about it, _you better stay
home watch TV_.

The flip-side of this is that by actually reading lengthy novel, playing cards
idly with friends, etc., and doing so without intent, you will in fact learn a
lot about life, about humans, and also how to handle relationships. But the
"without intent" part is essential.

To take your example about the president: I would LOVE the presidents of big
or small countries to spend a lot of time doing nothing, chatting with "non-
politician" friends, read lengthy novels. They would probably do less
mistakes.

We live in a world where we are made believe that every second counts, like in
TV series. It is not true. The only reason to live on earth is to be happy,
happiness is a state of mind that need some idle time to spawn, let's stop
running behind our ghost's shade.

[Edit: typo, clarity]

~~~
ramchip
But isn't utility pleasure? If reading a novel gives you pleasure, then you
derive utility from it. Same thing for playing cards. Investing into making
yourself a better person is simply investing in future utility, ie. extra
pleasure that you may be able to derive from being successful, owning a house,
having stronger relationships, etc. These have to be balanced against the
worth of immediate utility, which may mean that you'll spend a night playing
cards with friends for some immediate pleasure, and the next night learning a
language, in prevision of future rewards.

My impression is that you are reducing utilitarianism to a Mr Spock kind of
pseudo-logical thinking. You seem to be forgetting that the ultimate goal of
utilitarianism is happiness. It's not about gaining knowledge or even self-
improvement. Playing cards for pure fun is not at odds with utilitarianism.

(Disclaimer: I am not a philosopher nor do I have more than a basic knowledge
of utilitarianism)

~~~
gbog
> pleasure == utility

Well, not sure I follow you on this terrain... Let's find something that we
would agree is useless, and enjoyable. Maybe fishing alone and putting fish
back in the river?

Or you would say that this is also useful. But then anything is useful and the
word itself has no meaning (and become useless, hehe).

I may be too much influenced by Eastern streams of thoughts, where we have
zen, taoism, etc., all saying that nothingness, emptiness, uselessness are
things we should value more, because they are the ground on which everything
grows. (Simple example: without silence on which a composer is building, no
music is possible)

So, to go back to pg's essay, which is more of a short blog post, I found it
was lacking an open door toward these possibilities that "lost time" is not
always lost.

~~~
dkokelley
How would you measure the utility of something? I think our definitions of
utility are not the same. I see utility as ANYTHING one derives usefulness
from. Utility == value. Value is subjective. You value Zen. Taking the time to
appreciate nothingness IS valuable to you, therefor spending the day
meditating has utility to you.

The short essay isn't really about declaring activities to either be
productive or wasted. It's about learning to identify "empty" activities that
waste time with the false promise of being productive. Whether your time is
wasted or productive is a personal matter for you to weigh against your own
goals and values.

P.S. My apologies to anyone who might take offence to my poor understanding of
Zen.

------
feralchimp
"The solution is to develop new alarms."

...and get rid of some other ones.

------
Andi
PS: I have never played MMORPGs. Did I miss anything?

~~~
Evernoob
The social aspect and the feeling of being in a living and breathing fantasy
world is quite intoxicating at first. I do agree that you need to be mindful
of the fact that it is just a game and should be played for fun. It is not an
achievement and is not helping to further your life any more than any other
form of entertainment. It can be very easy to sink a lot of time into those
things, but they are fun while they last.

------
phzbOx
If I give you 5M$ now, what would you do? Now, do exactly that, without those
5M$.

~~~
damoncali
I tried. The credit card company complained.

------
revorad
If Alanis Morissette read PG's essays on time management and knew he also
built HN, she'd probably write more meaningful song lyrics.

~~~
mthreat
_Isn't it ironic..._

