
Final – A credit card built for the 21st century - arfrank
https://getFinal.com
======
Someone1234
> Final lets you give a unique credit card number to every merchant, or a
> disposable one-time use number for one-off purchases.

This is something I have been asking for since forever! People on here claimed
it was "impossible" because of how credit cards work, I guess not...

> Tired of your monthly yoga pants subscription? Or a two-week "free" trial
> that lasted four months? Just deactivate that card number. It's that easy.

They need to be careful what they advise. That advice could (and likely WILL)
result in people getting taken to collections.

Don't like your ISP? Just cancel the CC number, then 12 months later get a
bailiff turn up and seize your stuff...

~~~
toomuchtodo
Counterpoint.

If you get taken to collections over a trivial amount (<$100), its not into
taken account for your credit score (latest FICO model fixed that).

Have to go to court for collections? The first words out of your mouth need to
be, "Verify the debt." Ask them to produce the document you signed and agreed
to. In the vast majority of cases, without this, your case will be dropped
with prejudice. This is based on research I did while dealing with a personal
mortgage "issue".

[http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/532/m...](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/532/magic-words)

~~~
eli
Not all collections agencies are so sloppy and unscrupulous. If you do owe the
money and they do have the documentation to support it, you may well have a
judgement against you and that definitely will hurt your credit score.

Some companies (like say gym membership) have internal collections departments
that can be quite aggressive. They would certainly be able to back up any
lawsuit.

In general, you really want to try to avoid being sued.

~~~
toomuchtodo
You're right; occasionally you'll find a collection agency that has their act
together. Luckily, collection agencies purchase their debt for pennies on the
dollar, so they're happy to get anything. Start by offering them 10% of the
debt, and go from there up to no more than 25% of the debt, stipulating (in
writing) that its "Pay For Delete". This will require them to remove the
negative credit information from your credit report/profile in return for
payment.

4 states prohibit wage garnishments at all, and other states set the maximum
at between 15-25% of your disposable income:
[http://www.walkawayfromdebt.com/worksheets&charts/wage-
garni...](http://www.walkawayfromdebt.com/worksheets&charts/wage-
garnishment.html) (Disclaimer: Colorado SUCKS. They permit up to 75% of
disposable income to be collected).

I've helped negotiate away quite a bit of unsecured debt for close friends.
Its easier than you think.

~~~
throwaway_debt
Is there a way to contact you? I'm facing some very relevant circumstances,
unfortunately, and would like to ask your advice.

~~~
ufmace
patio11 had a great post on that about a year ago that you might be interested
in:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7135833](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7135833)

~~~
toomuchtodo
Thanks for posting patio11's advice!

------
untog
Having panned Plastc yesterday, this is like night and day - where Plastc is
trying to solve "I have too many credit cards in my wallet" with an overdose
of technology, Final is solving an actual real problem (credit card fraud)
with an _intelligent_ use of technology.

In fact, I don't even want a physical card (chip and pin will make that
difficult anyway), I just want an online service that will generate a new
credit card number for me on demand.

The budget tracking etc. is nice (and I understand why you want to add it for
customer engagement and blah) but I'd love a totally stripped down service
that gives me card numbers and pings me when they're used - and I would
happily pay for it.

~~~
hammock
Is credit card fraud really a big problem (for consumers I'm asking, not banks
or merchants)? In my experience, chargebacks are pretty easy, debit or credit.
Same with reporting a lost or stolen card and voiding any purchase made on it.
And every credit card I've ever had has been remarkably proactive about
alerting me to possible fraudulent activity.

~~~
worklogin
When banks have to pay millions of dollars a month in credit card fraud, it
impacts consumers. And there is peace of mind that there is no POSSIBLE way
your card can be used for fraud.

~~~
ternaryoperator
You're tempting the gods when you say "no possible way." Recent history has
shown repeatedly that when it comes to hacking especially access to funds,
defenses are good for only short periods of time.

------
arfrank
CTO/Co-Founder of Final here.

Final is what we built to take back control of our own credit cards for how
and when we’re charged, instead of leaving it up to merchants. That led to
merchant-specific numbers and limits, managed automatically, as well as
transparency in statements. It’s our stake in the ground, a way to shift the
culture in credit towards consumer friendliness.

Happy to answer questions

~~~
notJim
One of the problem w/ traditional credit cards is that my interests are not
aligned with those of the card issuer. It's better for me to pay off my
balance every month, but better for my bank if I don't so they can collect
interest.

Will this be any different with Final? If so, how do you plan to make money?

~~~
bryanlarsen
Don't worry, the banks love it when you pay the account in full every month.
They make more money from merchant fees than they do from interest payments.

Banks work hard to make sure credit card holders are happy. After all, it's
fairly easy to switch credit cards.

It's the merchants that have the short end of the stick in the three way
relationship between banks, customers and merchants.

~~~
uploading
Speaking of which, how will you be different from other small credit cards
when it comes to merchant relations? If I go to "Jo Shmo's Taco Shop" am I
still going to need a back up Visa card because that's all they are willing to
take?

~~~
tehwebguy
Probably not, my guess is that this will actually be a Visa card.

Most Visa and MC cards are branded as such but are actually backed by some
other institution, like Bank of America or Chase.

~~~
mcherm
Actually, ALL Visa and MasterCard cards are backed by some other institution.
MasterCard and Visa are (well, were: it's more complicated lately)
associations of banks.

------
crimsonalucard
The guy in the video is the exact same person in the coin video.
[https://onlycoin.com/](https://onlycoin.com/)

I'm really pissed off I paid for coin. I'm not going to pay a dime for plastc
or this until it's released.

~~~
mcdavis
It's Adam Lisagor whose video production company Sandwich Video works on lots
of startup videos [http://sandwichvideo.com/](http://sandwichvideo.com/)

~~~
n72
Which I don't understand. All their stuff has such a hipster aesthetic. I'm
not knocking the hipster aesthetic (I don't like it, but that's a whole
different conversation), but it's certainly not an everyman aesthetic, which I
would think one would want for an advertisement which is supposed to appeal to
a wide audience. I'm sure other industries have put a ton of research into
this and I assume this is why people in most ads are so ultra-generic. So, why
go with these guys? Path of least resistance? Do people in SF not realize that
the rest of the country is not like them? Do they think the rest of the
country wants to be like them? This isn't snark, but genuine curiosity.

~~~
csallen
A few comments:

1\. These guys have produced numerous videos for businesses that have gone
viral and spread to millions of people. That's not to say that others can't do
the same thing -- just that these guys have a history of success, which
suggests that not possessing an "everyman" aesthetic may not be such a bad
thing.

2\. Most companies that use Sandwich for their videos are early stage startups
looking for early adopters. Lots of early adopters work in tech and live in
the Bay Area. So at this stage, making a video that would appeal to this niche
of people makes perfect sense.

~~~
sherjilozair
Also,

3\. Being different (hipster) makes the audience remember the video, and hence
the product, which is the purpose of the video.

~~~
n72
Or turns a lot of people off from the product such that they decide not to use
it.

------
drglitch
As some have pointed out, Citi had this[1] since about 2004, Fleet/Bank of
America [2] had it in their setup as well for as long as i can remember.

The problem is going to be PCI compliance - the rules that govern merchant
procedure for accepting physical credit cards. Specifically, the last 4 digits
must be visually validated on the card and typed in to avoid cloned cards
(chips largely solve this) in most stores.

Furthermore, giving a new CC number to each transaction is going to deplete
the pool of available CC numbers rather soon (as im sure everyone knows, CC
number is not just random collection of 16 numbers 0-9).

As other people pointed out, this solves a non-problem: if i don't want to be
liable for a fraudulent purchase, i just use a credit card, not a debit card.
In case of CC fraud, it is the MERCHANT who is responsible, not the customer
or the bank.

Monitoring software that flags "odd" purchases is all that's needed - and
banks have been running such things for ages.

Yes, there is hassle if your CC gets lifted/swiped, but chances are, its not
an evil hacker doing it, but that cute waitress at your local bar with a $30
ghost reader in her hand.

Unless the physical card generates a new number on EACH swipe, it is just
another example of technology looking to complicate an otherwise streamlined
process.

/rant over :)

[1] [https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-
Account-N...](https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account-
Numbers.aspx) [2] [http://lifehacker.com/5831160/use-virtual-credit-card-
number...](http://lifehacker.com/5831160/use-virtual-credit-card-numbers-to-
shop-safely-online-keeping-in-mind-the-downsides) [3]
[http://www.getcreditcardnumbers.com/](http://www.getcreditcardnumbers.com/)

~~~
dmdeller
The banks' monitoring software is in fact a hassle for me. I've only ever had
legitimate purchases denied. The retailer's order flow is not usually
optimised for this case, requiring a tedious, often manual process to get my
order reinstated, while at the same time often causing the retailer to treat
me with suspicion (they can't tell why the charge was denied the first time,
and are sometimes reluctant or unable to retry the same card again).

As far as I can tell, Final is not really about reducing fraud, which, as you
correctly state, is mostly a non-problem for customers. Instead, its value is
in increasing my personal convenience, by reducing the annoyances the credit
card companies force me to deal with as a direct result of their absurdly
outdated technology.

~~~
res0nat0r
I'd suggest a better bank, or better retailers.

I was traveling across the country last month and bought some expensive
sunglasses and my card was declined. (My cab purchases and other legit looking
travel items worked just fine). I immediately on my phone got a text asking if
this purchase was legit, replied with '1' for yes, and my card was accepted
after trying again few seconds later.

I've headed this off before by calling the 24x7 number on the back of the card
before I leave the country or go on vacation across the USA and tell them to
flag my account that I will be traveling. This usually takes about 5 minutes.

------
namityadav
I was very interested in something like this few years back. But, my quick
research showed me that

(a) A company called Orbiscom (acquired by MasterCard) had patents in this
space [1], and they are the ones behind Bank of America's ShopSafe and a few
other such services offered by various banks.

(b) Almost all of those services (except for ShopSafe) are now discontinued.
Which indicates that either users don't care about something like this, or
that banks don't like offering something like this for some reason. Maybe that
explains why nobody knows about MaskMe [2] etc.

I would be curious how Final guys are overcoming those issues.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_payment_number](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_payment_number)

[2]
[https://www.abine.com/maskme/features/cards/](https://www.abine.com/maskme/features/cards/)

~~~
arfrank
The industry goes much deeper than that, and there are many vendors that also
issue virtual cards via other methods. Checkout Wex & Conferma for a few.

A few big changes are happening on the backend of payments that we also plan
on leveraging. See this spec if you want to learn more about them:
[http://www.emvco.com/specifications.aspx?id=263](http://www.emvco.com/specifications.aspx?id=263)

~~~
andreyf
This is a slightly more accessible explanation: [http://clover-
developers.blogspot.com/2014/09/apple-pay.html](http://clover-
developers.blogspot.com/2014/09/apple-pay.html)

------
rafaqueque
Using always the same guy for every single product launch is not that
appealing. Specially when this guy also made the video about onlycoin.com.

It's getting weird.

------
bicknergseng
"A credit card built for the 21st century" is an oxymoron. It's like saying a
car phone built for the 21st century.

For the love of all that is holy and sacred, please eliminate the need to
carry cards at all. Just let me pay with my phone. Put my drivers license,
health insurance card, membership cards, gift cards, car keys, and payment
methods into my phone. All of this already exists in some form or another, but
Apple and Google have utterly failed to make it work in the real world outside
of a few outliers like Starbucks.

It's 2014: there is no reason I should have to carry keys and a wallet when I
have a modern cell phone. Eliminate paper receipts while you're at it; email
them or aggregate in some other way digitally. Save 10 million trees.

~~~
jackmaney
Dear gods, please _eliminate_ any ability to pay with my phone! Cards are
fragile enough. I don't want to lose access to all of my money if I
accidentally drop my phone the wrong way.

EDIT: Not to mention my ID and keys! I'm honestly not sure I could think of a
worse idea.

~~~
bicknergseng
For you, butterfingers. I've never accidentally destroyed a phone. I have left
credit cards and wallets and IDs and keys at bars and hotels. I have had CC
numbers used by scammers online, requiring I call my credit card company,
figure out what expenses are fraudulent, cancel the card, and have them send
another. Magnet strips die all the time. Then I am stuck without one for a
week.

New car keys are $500+.

The DMV. Oh God, the DMV.

A phone is not only trackable, but remote wipeable. Order a new one online and
pick it up right then in a store or an Amazon same day box or something. All
lost information restored in a few minutes via the internet.

~~~
jackmaney
I've never had a phone destroyed, but electronic devices are, in many ways,
far more fragile than plastic cards. I would _never_ want accessibility to
absolutely everything tied to only one device, and I literally cannot imagine
how anyone would consider this to be a good thing.

"Oh crap, my phone fell into a puddle. Oh, well, guess I'll just buy a new one
--oh, wait...

Well, I could use a drink--oh, wait...

Bah, let me just go home--oh, wait..."

If you had your way, anyone who lost their phone would be effectively homeless
(at least temporarily). Do you now understand how shit-flingingly insane your
idea sounds?

~~~
bicknergseng
The way it is now, you lose your keys and you're effectively homeless. This is
why people have spare keys under mats. This is why backups are a good idea.
Have everything on your phone, but still keep a spare key if you lock yourself
out, keep a spare method of identification, keep a spare method of payment. I
don't see why we would sacrifice redundancy when we consolidate to make things
more convenient.

Does the world end when you lose your keys or wallet now? Then why would it
things change if their form changes? Again, it is far, far more convenient for
me to replace a phone than it is for me to replace the half dozen cards I
carry in my wallet; not to mention the countless more I won't/can't fit in my
wallet without looking totally crazy.

Oh, and the existing spare key option is wildly insecure. I'd rather have a
Lockitron-type device that will also accept a password or fingerprint or
something. That'll drive some security experts nuts, but honestly it's far
more easy and likely someone will smash in my window than hack my computerized
lock or lift my fingerprints.

~~~
jackmaney
> Does the world end when you lose your keys or wallet now?

No.

> Then why would it things[sic] change if their form changes?

Because the forms are consolidated into one: if you had your way, losing one's
phone could mean losing keys, ID, wallet, etc. It's replacing __metal fucking
keys __\--the only thing allowing you into your home (without breaking
in)--with fragile electronics.

Oh, and what would happen if you had your way and someone lost their phone?

"Oh well, lemme make a call and see if I can get a replaceme--oh, wait..."

Replacing my ID, keys, and cards wouldn't be fun, but all of that would be a
fucking pleasant walk in the park compared to replacing a phone containing all
of those things.

Again, I find myself literally unable to comprehend how anyone could possibly
think that this is anything but a horrible idea.

~~~
bicknergseng
This isn't really going anywhere, so I'll make my last set of points. Relevant
[http://xkcd.com/386/](http://xkcd.com/386/).

> losing one's phone could mean losing keys, ID, wallet, etc.

Yes. It also means replacing them all is also only one step: getting a new
phone and restoring settings from the cloud. Some comparisons: Losing my keys:
Analog: \--4 with backups are a quick trip to a local Lowes or Home Depot, ~30
min, ~5 bucks \--2 without backups == I'm buying new locks. Same trip to
Lowes, also installation time of an hour or so. ~$250 bucks. (also a good
reason for me to go make the 30 min, couple buck trip to make copies now) \--1
car key. Trip to the car dealership. At least an hour, minimum $300. Total:
several hours, ~$600. Phone: \--1 trip to T-mobile, cost of new phone. Total:
an hour, cost of new phone.

Losing my wallet: Analog: \--3 credit cards, 1 debit card: ~15 min/card for
calling and ordering replacements, > 2 days until a replacement arrives. Free.
\--health insurance card. >30 min phone call. Probably more. Health Insurance
has the worst customer service, a week before replacement. Probably free.
\--Driver's license. Between 30 min and 6 hours at the DMV. ~$50. \--Clipper.
Quick to order online, takes a few days to show up. $3. \--Safeway Club Card,
Membership cards. Probably a trip and a few minutes per card. Probably free.
Total: > 1 week to return to normal. < $100. Phone: \--1 trip to T-mobile,
cost of new phone. Total: an hour, cost of new phone.

The problem with these comparisons is that they compare losing keys or a
wallet with losing a phone. I would argue from personal experience that it's
much easier to keep track of 1 object than 3, but that's not exactly solid.
The negative arguments might make more sense: comparing losing a phone in both
situations.

Now, it is true that consolidation increases the consequences of a lost phone.
It requires backup methods of personal identity, payment, and home access,
which as I said before is true of both wallet and keys anyway. It is, however,
much easier and quicker to recover everything lost: 1 trip and one restoration
done in minutes or hours instead of requiring many trips over the course of
many days. Replacing a phone is really easy these days since everything is
stored in the cloud.

> Oh, and what would happen if you had your way and someone lost their phone?
> "Oh well, lemme make a call and see if I can get a replaceme--oh, wait..."

Really? This is just obstinance. Do you really try to replace your lost phone
by making a call with your phone? No. You go to a store or order one online.

>Replacing my ID, keys, and cards wouldn't be fun, but all of that would be a
fucking pleasant walk in the park compared to replacing a phone containing all
of those things.

I've lost a wallet before. That was a nightmare. Hours and hours wasted
calling CC companies, the DMV sucks. A long time to recover. Keys are similar.
A few years ago I had a phone stolen. Remote wiped it, ordered a new one
online and picked it up in store, life as usual an hour later. Not a big deal
like you're making it out to be, and honestly not very much different than
losing a phone today since you need proper backups in either situation.

~~~
jackmaney
So, let's say you get your way and lose your phone, and let's say you lose it
outside walking distance from your home.

How will you get a new phone? You can't call anyone. You can't drive anywhere.
You can't take a bus or subway or train. You can't take a cab. You'd either
have to walk or hitchhike (or, if you were with someone you know, you could
catch a ride).

But where would you go? You can't go home. You could try going to a
Verizon/T-Mobile/etc store, but you can't pay for a new phone. Even if you had
sufficient cash on you, you'd probably need to show ID (which you can't do).

"Ah ha! Cash!", I possibly hear you say. Well, you could try to get to a
branch of your bank, but you don't have ID, so you're unlikely to be able to
withdraw anything (and that's assuming that you arrive when the bank is
open...since you don't have your phone you can't use an ATM, of course).

So, honest question: if you had your way, how would _anyone_ be able to
replace a suddenly broken or lost phone?

~~~
bicknergseng
Borrow someone else's phone to make a call. Carry some amount of cash on you.
Credit cards don't displace the need for cash anyway. Curl up in a ball and
hope someone pities your total helplessness?

>you can't pay for a new phone You can if there is a computer you can use
there or on the way. Most companies allow you to pick up in store.

>You can't go home. Again, locking yourself out is a problem whether you have
a physical key or your phone is the key. Have a backup key, or better yet a
lock that can accept a password or something.

Like I was saying, consolidating doesn't eliminate the need for backup
options... it actually increases that need somewhat. But it does make remote
wiping and recovery considerably easier and reduces the number of things I
have to carry/remember.

I think I would be able to handle most situations, but maybe it wouldn't be
for everyone. Not saying I'd want to be in the middle of Harlem at 3AM without
my phone that is also my wallet and keys, but I think if that were the
scenario I would take the proper steps to not get myself into that situation.
Tap to pay NFC tag? Pebble vibrates when you move more than 50 feet from your
phone? Dunno, but I bet, given more time and thought than a HN thread, there
would be solutions almost any scenario that would be as good or better than
today.

That said, seems like this kinda thing would be optional and not mandatory for
quite some time...

~~~
jackmaney
> Borrow someone else's phone to make a call. Carry some amount of cash on
> you.

Okay, so if you were to have your way, the only thing that I'm seeing as
anything within a reasonable neighborhood of an answer to "how do I replace my
phone?" is to always carry cash on you and always be with someone who has a
working phone and either lets you borrow it or can drive (or otherwise cover
your transportation costs) to the nearest phone store. That actually seems
like an answer. A horrible, horrible answer, but an answer. We're making
progress!

> You can if there is a computer you can use there or on the way. Most
> companies allow you to pick up in store.

Most companies also don't let you replace your cell phone--or make any
significant changes to your account, for that matter--without showing ID.
Without your phone, you have no ID. Hence, you're fucked.

> Tap to pay NFC tag?

"Damn, where did my tag go? Oh, well, I'll just have to buy anoth--oh,
wait..."

> Pebble vibrates when you move more than 50 feet from your phone?

0_o I...what? What are you trying to say here?

------
eastbayjake
Ugh... I'm not doing the "There are X people ahead of you. Get access sooner
by inviting your friends!" thing again. I got tricked into doing it for
RobinHood.io over a year ago, convinced a bunch of friends to sign up, but
there's still no product in sight.

------
tkmcc
> Tired of your monthly yoga pants subscription? Or a two-week "free" trial
> that lasted four months? Just deactivate that card number. It's that easy.

I'm a little wary of this functionality. Although most responsible businesses
just cancel the subscription after a declined payment, some will sic a debt
collection agency on you because they claim you owe them the money. My Google-
fu is failing me now, but I know I've read of this happening recently.

I'm also wondering how the magnetic strip on the back works. Does that get
changed with each swipe as well? That would be really nice functionality to
have, though I understand the complexity of implementation.

~~~
sp332
It's true, if you sign up for something, you're on the hook for paying for it.
If your credit card doesn't work, that doesn't mean you're not in debt.

------
tzz
This is similar to ShopSafe from Bank of America. ShopSafe let you create
temporary reoccurring or single use CC number.
[https://www.bankofamerica.com/privacy/accounts-
cards/shopsaf...](https://www.bankofamerica.com/privacy/accounts-
cards/shopsafe.go)

------
gtCameron
Love the concept but I don't think I fully understand it. Am I opening a new
credit card account with Final or is it a front end to my existing cards.

If it's the former what kind of card is it (Visa, Mastercard, or something
different)?

------
DangerousPie
> Tired of your monthly yoga pants subscription? Or a two-week "free" trial
> that lasted four months? Just deactivate that card number. It's that easy.

Is it really that easy though? Sure, they won't be able to charge you anymore
but that doesn't mean that you didn't enter a binding contract.

What you are suggesting here sounds neither legal nor ethical.

~~~
arbitrage
What sounds unethical to me is incredibly one sided abusive contracts that are
incredibly difficult to cancel, even with agreed upon terms.

It sounds perfectly ethical to me. "I don't want to pay for goods and services
I don't want to receive anymore". This is an idea that has been tested many
many times in US case law, and therefore sounds perfectly legal as well.

~~~
Silhouette
_What sounds unethical to me is incredibly one sided abusive contracts that
are incredibly difficult to cancel, even with agreed upon terms._

Nothing in the description on the site implied a one-sided, abusive contract.
There is nothing inherently one-sided or abusive about either an ongoing
subscription or a service that offers a free trial but automatically starts
charging at the end of the trial period if you don't cancel.

Obviously if the charging organisation is misleading it's a different matter,
whether that was hiding or being deceptive about what would really be charged
or offering a trial but then creating barriers to permitted cancellation. I
don't know about the US, but here in Europe there are now some very one-sided
(pro-consumer) rules about this kind of thing.

However, if the deal was legit, knowingly using a card that won't stand up and
thus avoiding payments genuinely due is fraud, pure and simple.

------
headgasket
If anyone wondered why the same actor was used in the coin (www.onlycoin.com)
intro video.

[http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-12-05/adam-
lisagor...](http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-12-05/adam-lisagor-
silicon-valley-startups-favorite-video-director)

------
downandout
Chip and PIN, at least in the US, is useless right now because virtually no
merchants have the equipment. As for the browser plugin that generates a
unique number for each transaction, PayPal had this in 2008 and closed it
down. I'm not exactly sure why, but if they couldn't make it work, I have my
doubts about newcomers being successful with it.

The one interesting thing this card can do is disable charging to the physical
card number when it is seperated from the phone. Of course that will be
annoying when someone wants to buy something after they have left their phone
in the car or had their phone lost or stolen. It's also unclear if simply
running out of battery on the phone would disable the card. If my
understanding of their system is correct, it would.

~~~
coldcode
CHip and PIN will be required in the US as of Oct 2015.

~~~
stock_toaster
I believe it is Chip and _signature_ that will be required, not PIN.

~~~
aren55555
Canada already has chips on all our CCs - only ever place I ever need to sign
a receipt is down here in the US. Chip and PIN not Chip and signature.

~~~
stock_toaster
Parent was talking about US though, which is what I commented on. From what I
have read[1], the US seems to be going mostly chip and signature for some
weird reason. Anecdotally, Amex[2] only offers chip and signature cards to US
customers -- no support yet for chip and pin.

[1]: [http://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-USA-adopting-chip-
signature-...](http://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-USA-adopting-chip-signature-
and-not-chip-pin)

[2]:
[https://www.americanexpress.com/us/content/chip/signature.ht...](https://www.americanexpress.com/us/content/chip/signature.html)

------
tdicola
Am I crazy or doesn't this (temporary credit card numbers) already exist with
a lot of major credit card vendors? I remember getting an Amex Blue card back
in the early 2000's because it could do just that thing...

~~~
jack-r-abbit
Same here. I recall it came with a USB card reader. You had to put the credit
card into the reader to get the single use number... or something like that.
The user experience was horrible. I don't think I actually ever got it to
work. Surely things have improved since then though.

~~~
Gormo
I've got a Visa card from Bank of America. I can log into their website,
generate a disposable credit card number on the fly -- specifying my own
credit limit and expiration date -- and then just paste the card info into the
website I'm ordering from.

There's not a lot of friction in using this feature, and I use it all the
time, so I find it pretty surprising that many people here seem to regard
Final's implementation of the same thing as a brilliant innovation.

------
scotchio
This is awesome! I love the idea and was actually discussing a couple months
ago why this doesn't exist yet with current CC companies like AMEX or Visa.

All these all-in-one "supercards" coming out are cool, but this is beyond cool
and serves a real purpose.

I imagine they'll add a sharing component to purchases eventually too. This
way you just spin up a new credit card number that is split between a group of
people (e.g.: at a dinner for the check) and set percentages for everyone. You
no longer have to ask waiters to split bills, Venmo friends after, etc.

------
rjf1331
I can't help but think this must be vaporware. I worked in the credit card
industry for several years. A credit card company is not something anybody can
just start from scratch - you need data to model chargeoffs, fraud, spend, ect
in order to be profitable. And unlike Robinhood, you need a source of capital
to fund the cash you float, usually securitization or deposits.

I may be completely wrong, but I simply don't buy it. There's so much more to
a credit card product aside from the nice-sounding features they have on their
landing pages.

~~~
andrewdietrich
I'm happy to say that we're not vaporware. We're partnering with a bank that
provides all of the pieces you mentioned. Our model is similar to that of
Simple, which partnered with Bancorp Bank to launch their product.

~~~
kapnobatairza
I'm sorry to be so suspicious, but do you have ANY experience working with
Chip & PIN? How are you reprogramming your physical card on the fly?

When you make such bold claims, it is difficult to take any other part of your
product seriously.

------
donniefitz2
I have to say, the intro video for this was pretty good. Well done.

~~~
tambourine_man
Honest question, what is it that people like about this persona often played
by Adam Lisagor?

~~~
vitamen
He feels anti-corporate, quirky but not annoyingly so. He absolutely has his
own brand so where it once felt refreshing now it just feels sandwich, but
it's not to a point where that's a bad thing.

------
raesene4
I really like this concept, it's great for using sites that you want to buy
from but aren't too confident on their security, but it's not exactly new.

I had virtual card number generators in the UK 5+ years ago with cahoot
(unfortunately they shut that service down) and you can get this kind of thing
with Entropay and similar providers at the moment.

That said the app+management features look pretty nifty, so this could be a
nice advancement of the concept.

------
jastanton
Essentially your credit card number is like a transaction token now. If the
token is compromised, no big deal the transaction is over and that token is no
longer valid. But it has some backwards compatibility built in so you can re-
use the token for systems that are setup to charge one number / token every
month. Your credit card number is essentially an implementation detail of your
card. Very cool.

------
austinhutch
No scrolljacking, beautiful colors, product screenshots, nice imagery and
typography.. this is a successful execution of the ubiquitous "startup site"
style. Not a comment on the product, but I had to commend you for getting this
right when so many others get it wrong.

------
pbreit
All these multi-number payment card offerings go against the age-old truism
that it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

If people really cared about avoiding a fraudulent transaction depleting their
bank account, they would use credit cards instead of debit cards.

------
ufo
From what I understand, each 16-digit credit card number has 9 digits for the
account number. With only 1-billion combinations don't you risk using up all
the numbers if everyone gets a new number for every transaction?

------
clarkmoody
Huge feeling of déjà vu after having just watched the marketing video[1] for
Slack yesterday.

[1]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6zVzWU95Sw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6zVzWU95Sw)

------
hackuser
What about confidentiality: I assume you collect what I purchase, when, where,
and the cost. What do you do with this data? (Of course this question applies
to every credit card vendor, not only to Final.)

------
JoshTriplett
This looks like the right solution to work around the current craziness of
sharing a single credit card number across all purchases. (An ideal solution
would involve some kind of assymetric crypto for authorization, but this seems
like the best we can do with the current credit card infrastructure.)

The biggest question the FAQ doesn't answer: Will this interoperate with (at
least one of) MasterCard, Visa, or American Express? Because if not, it isn't
going to work with most merchants.

------
gtirloni
Bank of Brazil (BB) released something very similar called Ourocard-e to all
33mi customers in April 2014. It's very cool this idea gaining more acceptance
in other markets.

------
powertower
If you recognize the guy in the ad, he is the CEO of the ad company
[http://sandwichvideo.com/](http://sandwichvideo.com/)

------
chemmail
Citi cards had this for a while, but got rid of it. It was quite nice, but
needs more organization. Also the paypal model has it right. Even though I,
like many others, loath paypal, I've been using them everywhere just to save
time entering my CC. This doubles as security as merchant never get your CC in
the first place.

Apple pay will probably fix the organization of the random CC # generation.
Final seems to be a little late in the game.

------
aet
As a U.S. citizen, next time I hear about a major credit card breach I will
definitely relax as federal regulation limits my liability to $50 (and that is
if the physical card is stolen). If only my credit card number is stolen, I
have ZERO liability.

[http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0213-lost-or-stolen-
cre...](http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0213-lost-or-stolen-credit-atm-
and-debit-cards)

------
sfonyc
If you have to partner with a bank can you guarantee the interest rate will be
below 10%?

Unless you're offering a 9% or lower rate for everyone and no annual fee this
is not a truly customer friendly product, it's like every other bad bank. How
can you say you're customer friendly if ANY customer has even a small risk of
getting charged more than 10% interest.

------
programminggeek
Ok, so at what point do all these magic new credit card/meta credit cards just
get bought up by AMEX, Master Card, or Visa?

------
benguild
...Finally! Some innovation in the credit card industry just as people are
starting to replace them with mobile phones.

------
TheMagicHorsey
My Bank of America credit card account has had this feature for years. Its
called ShopSafe. I use it all the time.

------
octix
How is this different from what BoA's ShopSafe? I've been using "virtual" cc
for a few years now, that is the main reason I'm with BoA at the moment...

The only thing is that it's a bit of hassle to use their tool.

Also, I get a notification when my cc is used online or phone...

------
staticelf
The site doesn't say anything about if this will be available world wide or
just in the us?

Even so, I have used virtual credit cards for several years already as my bank
provides a service for it. It works really neatly tbh even if the UI isn't as
nice as in the video promotion.

------
harel
I don't know if its just me, but the person in the video looks very similiar
(if not the same guy) from the Coin
([https://onlycoin.com/](https://onlycoin.com/)) video. Similar industry,
similar beardy face?

------
dylchill
This is neat idea, but I primarily use credit cards (over debit cards) for
their benefits--in my case, airline miles. Why would I forfeit these benefits
that save me hundreds of dollars a year in airline travel costs for this card?

------
invertedohm
In the video, Adam glances at the guy behind him in line as he says "checking
my statement for sketchy charges". Dude looks a lot like weev. Not sure if
it's the guy himself, but that has to be intentional.

------
felixvolny
Am I really the only one to notice it says "Enter your emaill address"?

------
lhm
I wonder if it would be possible to integrate this into existing online
banking. Being able to use this through an existing bank account could be a
good selling point to privacy-aware customers, at least in Germany.

------
gojomo
I want a next-generation payment card shoehorned into the same form-factor as
legacy credit cards about as much as I want to access the internet with an
acoustic modem.

(Which is: only if there's absolutely no other way.)

------
boca
Interesting concept that solves an actual problem. It will be interesting to
see what kind of pricing they will adopt.

P.S. The button next to the "Reserve your card" looks pretty similar to
Telegram's app icon.

------
nayefc
Not only do they need to work with every single party in the ecosystem to
succeed (they have no leverage), but have they heard of umm, Apple Pay and
Visa's/MC/AMEX new TSP?

------
otakucode
One question: Does it cut in 'payment processors' or other financial
institutions for a percentage of every transaction?

If so, then it has absolutely no place in this century. Transferring numbers
does not get more difficult when the numbers are larger, and any percentage-
based system is unjustifiable. Transferring numbers is also terribly easy now,
so such a service does not even warrant a significant flat fee.

We are rapidly moving toward a situation where virtually every single
transaction in our economy gets skimmed by banks for 5% or so. This is giving
a ridiculous amount of economic control to banks for absolutely no reason.

------
pkinsky
Weird, their website seems to have the same color scheme as
[http://typesafe.com/](http://typesafe.com/).

------
Fargillsta
Your links are a "disappearing light-blue color" so they don't fit in with the
text very well (especially the privacy policy).

------
urza
This is alredy possible with
[https://dnt.abine.com/#dashboard](https://dnt.abine.com/#dashboard)

------
vyrotek
This is great! I've wanted this for years. I imagine this is pretty difficult
to integrate and provide. I hope they can deliver.

------
anvarik
I remember this guy from somewhere... There was another product that creates a
small display on your car window if I am not wrong

~~~
hegivor
That product is Navdy and the guy in the video, Adam Lisagor, is indeed the
same guy in the Final video. Lisagor's company Sandwich Video
([http://sandwichvideo.com/](http://sandwichvideo.com/)) produced both videos
and countless others for startups, many of which he has appeared in.

------
maresca
What happens when your generated number matches an existing number? Is there a
finite amount of possible CC numbers?

~~~
rtkwe
Do you mean a non Final number? That shouldn't happen since ever issuer is
uniquely identified by the first 6 numbers on the card. For collisions with
Final numbers they'll have to keep track of the numbers they've issued and if
they have expired or not. Aren't online transactions validated with a
combination of CC# and other details. They could use that to deepen their pool
of numbers. They can also get multiple issuer numbers (the first 6 digits)
giving them more numbers as well. Also temporary card numbers aren't
completely new so they're probably drawing on existing solutions to collision
issues.

------
queryly
Does unique throw-away card number really reduce fraud? If so, can't
Visa/Mastercard implement them too?

------
AznHisoka
I want to invest. I have a feeling this is going to be acquired for billions
for PayPal or a credit card company.

------
Hortinstein
how long before numbers get collisions? are revoked credit card numbers
invalidated forever?

------
bigethan
Does this work with reward programs? Or is it's primary feature it's safety?

------
ludite313
I want to hire the actor in this video, he is hilarious. Anyone know his name?

------
instaheat
This guy again? The Coin Guy?

------
findjashua
something I've always wanted, just wasn't sure if it was feasible enough to
implement. If it works like in the video, great job guys!

PS: am I imagining things or do all startup videos have the same actor?

------
Fastidious
Is anyone else experiencing "jumpy" page on the website?

------
WaxProlix
But what kind of _rewards program_ does it have

------
darkstar999
bigboxesofwine.gov doesn't exist. I am disappoint.

This is awesome though. It's like what 33mail.com does for email addresses,
but even better.

~~~
bertil
Well, systembolaget.se and alko.fi do… Fantastic choice, exceptional service,
and crazy expensive because the excise taxes are paying for the perfectly fine
and very expensive education of Nordic children. Also, not available in the
US. (Sorry, just left the country to start a new job in London, still under
the shock of having cheap, good, strong alcohol in supermarkets.)

More seriously, I think the sweater thing was a tease at a competitor (who's
presentation include an awkward “Say you want to buy a nice sweater… — But I
don't! — Let’s say you do!”). Then that-guy-who-makes-all-the-cool-product-
videos got creative with URLs.

~~~
christiangenco
I was wondering if that was a conscious decision. Here's the competitor's
video: [https://www.plastc.com/card](https://www.plastc.com/card)

Sweater comment starts 19 seconds in.

------
bibonix
sounds like a great solution for chaotic credit card holders :) with a little
bit of self-discipline you don't need this service

------
wnevets
Didnt paypal used to have virtual cc#s years ago?

~~~
gtirloni
Used to, not anymore. They only offer a prepaid MC card now.

[https://www.paypal-prepaid.com/](https://www.paypal-prepaid.com/)

~~~
wnevets
did they ever explain why they got rid of them?

------
jafaku
Too late, this is the century of Bitcoin.

------
wyclif
Whatever happened to Simple?

------
ShaneOG
Will this be US only?

------
kolev
This guy! Again! :)

------
sdegutis
Seriously. Just, no.

------
wil421
Are you going to release Coin?

------
Bud
Final - A credit card built for the remaining 12 days until Apple Pay is
released and instantly transforms this space.

------
Silhouette
_Tired of your monthly yoga pants subscription? Or a two-week "free" trial
that lasted four months? Just deactivate that card number. It's that easy._

It really isn't, and you just publicly encouraged people to commit a criminal
offence.

 _Please_ talk to an actual lawyer before making that kind of statement, or
your business is likely to be short-lived regardless of any other merit it
has.

