
Data from man's pacemaker led to arson charges - pavel_lishin
http://www.journal-news.com/news/data-from-man-pacemaker-led-arson-charges/sDp2XXGPY1EKJkY57sureP/
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coreyp_1
Imagine that you are in a car accident (the other person hit you). The
insurance company uses your sleep tracker to claim that you were negligent due
to not getting enough sleep the night before, and are therefore at fault, so
they won't pay.

Data is as dangerous as it is helpful. The scary thing is that you cannot
control how someone else will interpret your data.

~~~
kitbrennan
In your example I think it's right that the driver is found at fault. The
effects of sleep deprivation on driving are very well documented and are
comparable to drinking. If a driver is not fit to be driving a car, then they
are a danger to the other road users and must take responsibility for their
negligence.

The same evidence could of course be helpful to the driver. If their sleep
tracking app shows they are well rested and their phone's use shows no
distractions while driving, then they could use that as evidence to fight a
charge of driving without due care and attention.

~~~
dionidium
It's not as though we can derive some hard cutoff on how little sleep is
clearly negligent. We're talking about wide ranges and tolerances for
different people in different circumstances.

We're in the same situation with alcohol -- how much before you're actually
impaired? -- but most states have responded to that reality with laws that
prohibit driving after drinking almost _any alcohol at all_.

Are you sure you want a similar situation with respect to your sleep?

~~~
TeMPOraL
Given that I don't know of a single driver actually obeying the rules about
mandatory breaks for long-distance travel, yes, I'd definitely want a similar
situation with respect to sleep.

There is something weird about driving that makes most people feel they're
smarter and better than everyone else, so they can ignore traffic laws at
their discretion. That attitude costs quite a lot of lives every year.

~~~
toast0
Commercial truck drivers can have their log books inspected at weigh stations,
if they haven't had the required rest (or don't have a logbook), they have to
stop and stay off the road.

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kordless
If you have a neural mesh, the state will likely have intent to claim they
have access and rights to the date in the mesh, regardless of whether it is in
your body or not.

There's no way in hell I'm ever hooking a computer up to my brain in this
reality.

~~~
maxerickson
Why not build a well regulated state that only uses such powers in narrow
circumstances?

I mean, you are sort of implying that installing a neural mesh would give you
greater exposure to injustice than not doing so, so why not just fight the
injustice to begin with?

Not believing that such a state is achievable is one thing, but you did say
"in this reality".

~~~
koolba
> Why not build a well regulated state that only uses such powers in narrow
> circumstances?

Because the definition of "well regulated" is highly subjective and any state
that's in power would consider its own uses to be with the confines of any
circumstance no matter how narrow.

The only way to win is to not play the game.

~~~
maxerickson
No, the only way to win is to continually work to build a more just society.

It may be pragmatic to keep computers out of your brain in the meantime.

~~~
djsumdog
I would recommend the book Animal Farm.

The revolution was good in every way. It was peaceful and the animals got back
control of their lives. But even from that, the pigs convinced everyone they
needed leaders.

Unfortunately, the pragmatic reality is that no matter how much you try to
shape a system of control to be balanced, the people who eventually get into
power are the ones that crave it and often don't have much respect for the
individual.

~~~
maxerickson
Yes, you must continually work to build a more just society. There is no
sitting back and enjoying it after you have finished it because it will never
be finished.

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wheaties
I get it but this is some scary stuff that pushes the bounds of ethics. I
mean, on one hand we want to prevent insurance fraud because it impacts
everyone. On the other, where do we draw the line? Should we even have to
consider that a pacemaker could be used to gather data about us before we
consent to a pacemaker? It shouldn't. Now it is.

~~~
burkaman
I don't see why this is scary. I think it's somewhat comparable to the police
examining his clothes, for example, and finding no traces of sweat or smoke,
which would make his story not credible. Or what about looking at how many
steps a Fitbit recorded? If the pacemaker had a GPS or something embedded in
it, that would be egregious, but a pacemaker collecting data on the pace it's
making is expected, and the police should be able to look at it with a
warrant. Police can access medical records with a warrant, and this is
basically just a very recent medical record.

~~~
grayhatter
You don't need clothing to stay alive, nor a fitbit.

And medical history can't really be used to indict someone. Where this clearly
was.

EDIT: can't be used to indict, only as addition evidence for a trial. It's an
important distinction, but I'm not sure I think it's okay either.

~~~
burkaman
Why isn't it ok? The whole purpose of a warrant is to reveal private
information when necessary. I get that medical history is especially
sensitive, but I don't see why it should be completely off limits. What if,
say, someone claimed to be out of the country for an extended period of time,
but their medical history showed they actually required frequent treatment at
a local hospital? Should that be inadmissible?

~~~
grayhatter
IMO, it's not okay because the strict alternative is the patient must choose
death. Pace makers are very invasive. They're not generally installed unless
absolutely needed.

In this case, it's very similar to saying. "If you don't let us install this
device that the government can use to know exactly what you were doing every
hour of every day; you'll die."

It's not quite the fact that it's medical history, but it's very detailed,
personal medical history. "He had gout some time in the last few weeks/months"
vs "He was running 14 times in the last 21 days, and heres' the exact minute
he started and ended"

> but their medical history showed they actually required frequent treatment
> at a local hospital? Should that be inadmissible?

That they acquired treatment? Maybe. That they were treated for an STI? Yes,
that should be inadmissible. Because as a medical person, I don't want you
avoiding ANY treatment because you scared the information about the treatment
would be used against you.

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mywittyname
At least police obtained the data through the proper channels, securing a
search warrant. I can't think of an argument against this being valid and
reasonable.

~~~
jrowley
I'm curious how a) they determined he had a pace maker b) where they got the
idea to check it for data. Pretty wild.

~~~
Avenger42
From the article:

> Compton, who has extensive medical problems, including an artificial heart
> implant that uses an _eternal pump_

(I'm fairly certain they meant "external" there.)

~~~
jrowley
Good pickup. Haha I'd an "eternal" pump would be handy.

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snarf21
It seems unlikely that the heart rate data alone would allow for indictment
but it was one _more_ piece of data since the suspect was not cooperating.
[[http://www.networkworld.com/article/3162740/security/cops-
us...](http://www.networkworld.com/article/3162740/security/cops-use-
pacemaker-data-as-evidence-to-charge-homeowner-with-arson-insurance-
fraud.html)]

They found gasoline on his clothing, investigation revealed the fire started
at multiple locations and he told 911 that "everyone was out of the house" but
was heard over the phone telling someone to get out of here. So he was an
idiot and got caught...

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nkrisc
I wonder if he had any idea his pacemaker collected such data or that it could
be used against him? Should patients be made aware of this risk when they're
receiving the devices?

~~~
miguelrochefort
> Should patients be made aware of this risk when they're receiving the
> devices?

What risk? The risk that the truth comes out? Give me a break.

~~~
billmalarky
Devil's Advocate:

Software has bugs, what if the data implicated him but was incorrect? Of
course bugs in a pacemaker means bigger problems... but you get my point.

~~~
PeterisP
The possibility of bugs is something that the defence can argue - the court
would need to find _beyond reasonable doubt_ that the defendant was guilty.
It's certainly not the responsibility of manufacturer to provide perfect or
imperfect certainty about the data, but it's the prerogative of the jury to
decide the trustworthiness of that data.

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vr46
Apart from anything else, there's a delightful irony in that the device that
(probably) kept him alive to be able to commit a crime was also responsible
for catching him.

It _sounds_ as though the doctors' evidence was fairly powerful regardless of
the data from the pacemaker.

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jordan9001
The Tell-Tale Heart

~~~
6stringmerc
You should take a bow for that one, way to stick the landing.

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trekking101
One person's metadata is another's data

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SN76477
How is this not a HIPPA violation?

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_delirium
HIPPA allows disclosure in response to a court order or warrant (among other
things). See here:
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/45/164.512#f](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/45/164.512#f)

~~~
1qaz2wsx3edc
IANAL nor American but this feels like another thing stepping on top of their
constitution, specially the spirit of the fifth:

> nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself

I can be tried for my data? That's kind of messed up, what if the data was
faked, etc.

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rhino369
Of course you can be tried for you data. Letters, records, etc. have always
been used.

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kozak
There should be even more stories where data from fitness trackers is used,
right?

~~~
nom
They can't proof that you were wearing the device at the time of the incident.
It's also possible to fake the data, either by letting someone else wear it or
by spoofing the bluetooth device itself.

