
Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store - dhuramas
https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910
======
djflutt3rshy
Would it kill companies to be honest and upfront about these sorts of issues?
I feel like "Hey, we're unable to pay our bills unless we can better monetize
our product" comes across a lot more honest and trust-worthy than this "We're
improving user experience! Trust us!" pride-and-accomplishment nonsense that
everyone keeps regurgitating. We're not preschoolers, the Internet can spot
marketing slogans a mile away.

~~~
jcroll
Does the internet always have to throw a fit every time a company tries to add
a little monetization to what is an essentially free service?

~~~
hellosputnik
The internet does not always throw a fit every time a company tries to add a
little monetization to what is an essentially free service.

The community is expressing a desire for companies to be be honest and upfront
about these sorts of issues (i.e., monetization). Refer to the post you
responded to for more information.

------
jeffbr13
Docker Hub[1] is also blatantly in breach of the GDPR. Wording on the pop-up:

> We and our advertising partners use cookies on this site and around the web
> to improve your website experience and provide you with personalised
> advertising from this site and other advertisers in AdRoll's network. By
> clicking "allow" or navigating this site, you accept the placement and use
> of these cookies for these purposes.

It’s not a modal, but supposedly ignoring it opts you into the tracking, with
the only choices being “Allow” or “Learn More” and the [x] button also being
labelled “Allow”.

IANAL, but it’s not informed individualised consent if there’s literally no
opt-out, and there’s not a lawful basis unless advertising-cookies are
suddenly the enabling technology behind downloadable containers.

I’d report them to the Information Commissioner‘s Office myself if I didn’t
think they were about to fold anyway, after their piss-poor sunsetting of
Docker Cloud and painting a target on their own back for a few adbucks.

[1]: [https://hub.docker.com/](https://hub.docker.com/)

~~~
danjoc
>Docker Hub is also blatantly in breach of the GDPR.

Truth is, no one cares. GDPR is an overreach designed to shake down American
mega-corps. Docker has no money so the EU isn't going to do anything to them.

>I’d report them to the Information Commissioner‘s Office myself if I didn’t
think they were about to fold anyway

I'm sure they're inundated with complaints from unsuccessful companies trying
to shoot down their biggest competitors already. Adding one more to the pile
is only going to waste your time and that of EU regulators.

~~~
thayne
> Truth is, no one cares. GDPR is an overreach designed to shake down American
> mega-corps

And yet it hurts small startups that don't have the resources to become fully
GDPR compliant more.

~~~
pluma
It hurts small startups trying to perpetuate the same blatant disregard for
human rights as American startups have done in the past. It doesn't hurt small
startups that are privacy-aware and treat their users with respect.

Not giving users a way to delete their accounts was never okay. Tracking user
behavior without consent was never okay. Holding users' data hostage was never
okay. Not giving people a way to correct the data you keep about them was
never okay.

US startups have been playing on easy mode by getting to ignore human rights
and just follow the local letter of the law even when going international.

If anything you'd think HN "classical liberals" would love this as it evens
the playing field, allowing for fairer competition between already privacy-
aware EU companies and the previously unfairly advantaged US companies
entering the EU market. Of course this assumes you think privacy and data
ownership should be protected as human rights in the first place.

~~~
thayne
> Not giving users a way to delete their accounts was never okay. Tracking
> user behavior without consent was never okay. Holding users' data hostage
> was never okay. Not giving people a way to correct the data you keep about
> them was never okay.

Sure. If being GDPR compliant just meant you just don't have to do those
things, it wouldn't be a problem. But with GDPR you now have to spend time
(=money) understanding what GDPR means (probably with a lawyer's help) and
ensuring that you are in fact compliant. "I try to protect user's privacy"
isn't good enough when the EU could effectively put you out of business if you
aren't. You'll have to deal with Data Access Requests, most of which are from
trolls. You may need a DPO, which might require hiring someone. I'm all for
protecting privacy, but the GDPR adds quite a bit of burden, which large
corporations will be able to eat, but will set back smaller corporations.
Really medium size companies are in the best position, since they have the
resources to meet GDPR obligations, but don't have to do massive overhauls
like the big corps do.

------
cdoxsey
Docker is such a mess.

As a tool for building containers its cumbersome, has bizarre and frustrating
limitations and has issues that haven’t been addressed in years. You can’t use
semver for tags, it eats up all your disk space and you have to manually GC
it, etc… Multi-build support is basically useless and invariably you end up
writing convoluted bash scripts to get the thing to work.

Caching is terrible pretty much across the board. How many petabytes of data
are wasted every day re-syncing apt-get?

As a runtime engine its basically dead for production use. If you ever try to
use it you’ll quickly discover that it has tons of problems. It locks up,
orphans processes, stops responding to commands, forgets about containers,
etc. And its not safe to run arbitrary containers. You’d be surprised by how
many companies using Kubernetes gave up using docker a long time ago.

Please save yourself a lot of heartache and just use containerd.

As a concept, containers never really lived up to their potential. "A Docker
container image is a lightweight, standalone, executable package of software
that includes everything needed to run an application." As long as that
application runs in linux.

As a company Docker is a failure. All their cloud stuff is clunky, poorly
thought out and at this point largely irrelevent. I'll be surprised if it will
last 5 years. Kubernetes won. Those cute, cuddly characters and the Docker
name are basically all they have going for them, and all these things, the
Moby rename, the requiring login to download, etc... are the death throes of a
dying company. Docker is the next jQuery.

People don't realize just how easy all this stuff will be to replace. Google
already did it. Like 5 times. (gVisor, jib, kaniko, ...) It was probably some
intern's side project.

Microsoft should just get it over with and acquire the company. It would be
the perfect cherry on top to their Github cake.

~~~
politelemon
> Please save yourself a lot of heartache and just use containerd.

Part of the appeal of Docker is the ease with which developers new to the
concept of containers can pick it up. I cannot say the same for containerd.
Try a search for containerd tutorials and compare what you find with docker
tutorials.

> People don't realize just how easy all this stuff will be to replace.

Think carefully about why that is. If it were easy, it would have been
understood. So, no - understanding the replaceability of the container
components is not easy. That is why people have not realized it.

The issue with many docker's competitors is it appeals to docker experts. The
abstraction and terminology itself is not straightforward.

A lot of hyperbole in your comment is unnecessary and/or undeserved. Of course
I realize that this is HN where k8s, rkt and containerd are used largely by
the visiting audience. But don't forget the dark matter developers.

~~~
majewsky
> Try a search for containerd tutorials and compare what you find with docker
> tutorials.

containerd is just a building block. You'll actually be looking for a
Kubernetes tutorial, which the internet is sprawling with.

~~~
oblio
Yeah, but how's the dev experience for Kubernetes, even with all those
tutorial? How easy is it to install on Windows, for example?

~~~
tapoxi
choco install minikube

choco install kubernetes-cli

minikube start

(You'll need Hyper-V, however.)

------
madmax96
I get it. I hate login-walls too.

The level of toxicity in the github issue's conversation is so astounding that
I must say something. People on the internet are people. I hope that we don't
talk to people in "real life" the same as we do when we make toxic comments
online. Complain, write letters/emails to Docker, make your opinion heard,
etc. But remember that you are dealing with a fellow human-being, who has
their own life and own emotions. Treat them with the same respect you would
like to be shown when people are unhappy with you.

The comments in that github issue reflect very poorly on us as a professional
community to the point that I'm embarrassed.

~~~
BillFranklin
Yes I agree. We don't know why Docker did this. It's not a particularly
helpful thing to do, but it's just not that major an issue.

I think many who posted on the Github issue will later regret the tone of
their reaction. The treatment of the Docker employee was particularly nasty.

~~~
wlll
> We don't know why Docker did this.

Well, yes and no. They've said why they've done this:

> we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and
> Windows experience for users moving forward.

but at the same time, that explanation is clearly bollocks. Something I
realised and find very helpful to remember is this:

> If someone gives a reason for something, and the reason is clearly bullshit,
> then it means the person giving the reason has a hidden agenda which is
> likely to be negative for the explainee. - "Will's law of corporate
> bullshit"

Here's how it works. People do stuff for a reason, for instance I ate lunch
because I was hungry. I have opened the windows because it is hot and I like
the breeze.

It is usually easy to match the action with the reason given, there is no
suspicion here, there is no cognitive dissonance.

So let's take the example in question, Docker moving downloads of their
software behind a login. Without attempting to guess at their motivations it
seems clear that this is a very inconvenient thing to do for end users. As
someone has pointed out, the steps to download the software are nearly
doubled, and there are fears of getting corporate spam.

So OK, that's the action, what's the reason given?

> we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and
> Windows experience for users moving forward.

Well, that's clearly bullshit, right? It isn't possible to match the reason
given with the action. It's _not_ going to allow for a better experience for
end users.

Let's apply the logic. Company does something -> Reason given is bullshit ->
there is likely a hidden agenda that is bad for the explainee.

So we have arrived at a situation where we are pretty sure that the hidden
reason for Docker to make this change is negative. We don't know exactly what
yet (we can speculate), but we are pretty sure it's negative.

So you are right, "We don't know why Docker did this", but we can be fairly
certain it's not going to be for the benefit of us end users.

~~~
tripzilch
> > we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and
> Windows experience for users moving forward.

> but at the same time, that explanation is clearly bollocks

Whenever a corporation/someone explains their decision is to "improve the
experience for our users" as the major reason, without explaining how exactly
the decision relates to an improved experience, it's usually disingenuous[0].

I'm actually curious if there's counterexamples against this rule.

[0] bullshit makes the flowers grow

------
mbell
It seems like Docker is in a really awkward place as a company. Their strategy
was clearly to get everyone on the container hyper train then monetize by
selling the production orchestration / runtime. But Kubernetes happened and
GCP / AWS have rolled out competition in all the other supporting system
needed; container registries, build pipelines, etc. What is the actual pitch
for Docker EE now? Their marketing is pushing hard on 'security', but
otherwise it seems like they are just selling a pretty UI for K8s. I don't see
that being enough to support a company that has taken 250M in funding.

~~~
dan_quixote
The k8s community is moving full steam ahead toward replacing docker
containers with OCI-compliant cri-o/podman. Docker had a good run with a great
idea, but it doesn’t make sense to leave all of this vendor-agnostic tooling
reliant on Docker (the company).

~~~
rattray
Interesting, where can we learn more about this? (eg; cri-o, podman, I saw rkt
mentioned elsewhere)

~~~
dan_quixote
This is a post explaining how the k8s community got to the current state:
[https://medium.com/cri-o/container-runtimes-
clarity-342b6217...](https://medium.com/cri-o/container-runtimes-
clarity-342b62172dc3)

And here’s a little info on why we’re using cri-o at SUSE:
[https://www.suse.com/c/cri-o-container-runtime-on-suse-
caas-...](https://www.suse.com/c/cri-o-container-runtime-on-suse-caas-
platform-3/)

~~~
rattray
cool, thanks!

------
userbinator
That's what throwaway accounts are for... and this, of course:

[http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com](http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com)

In any case, "to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows
experience for users moving forward" is yet another example of the official-
sounding-yet-bullshit, vague and meandering language that seems to permeate
into everything these days. (Is there a specific term for it? "Business-speak"
doesn't have enough of a negative connotation for the "We did it this way and
you _will_ like it. If you don't, fuck off." that they really want to say.)

~~~
jchw
FWIW, as far as I know, Docker for Windows and Docker for Mac really are
closed source freeware. My honest opinion is we should move away from it.

As for what to move to... That's definitely an open question. Docker for
Windows is definitely one of the best developer experiences I've had on
Windows because they put actual engineering work into it. All the same, I
still found it buggier and less supported than Docker for Mac. At least on
Windows, I wish we could combine the cool LXSS work with a development-only
Docker implementation.

Ultimately, Docker should not be synonymous with containers anyway. Future
versions of Kubernetes will not use Docker and instead run their own
containers on top of libcontainer by default, as I understand it. I also feel
rkt has a much nicer design than Docker, doing away with the daemon aspect of
it. Hoping to see more development in the future.

~~~
llimllib
> one of the best developer experiences I've had on Windows because they put
> actual engineering work into it

Like, this is exactly what they're talking about, right? This is the user
experience that they've improved because VCs have been willing to give them
money because they show increases in MAUs.

Am I crazy here? You seem to be complaining about exactly the thing that you
like

~~~
jchw
The app phoning home to do analytics is fine with me. I just want the download
links so I don't have to sign in to download the app. I will almost definitely
sign into the app so I can use the features where signing in are actual value
adds. (Also, if they ever removed the direct links, it would really suck for
automated deployments.)

But really, I don't care that strongly. I do, however, wish to use, if
possible, an open source solution. Why? Because I had a problem with Docker
for Windows and I couldn't debug it. As I understand it, this is actually
pretty similar to the reasoning behind Linux being developed.

~~~
llimllib
I want that too, but there's unfortunately nobody likely to do that work for
free.

(I find it annoying that you have to hunt for the download link too, tbf. I
just figure that, OK, that's how they make their $ to build their mostly
excellent software)

~~~
jchw
I think the problem is who controls the container world. Companies like
Facebook and Google do not build their businesses on developer tools, but they
collectively benefit with open source. Docker may very well not benefit much
from open source because their business is containers and sharing the secret
sauce does not make them more money.

------
bufferoverflow
Linux:
[https://download.docker.com/linux/static/stable/x86_64/](https://download.docker.com/linux/static/stable/x86_64/)

Win:
[https://download.docker.com/win/static/stable/x86_64/](https://download.docker.com/win/static/stable/x86_64/)

Mac:
[https://download.docker.com/mac/static/stable/x86_64/](https://download.docker.com/mac/static/stable/x86_64/)

~~~
eabutfordocker
The intent is to provide users with a sense of pride and accomplishment for
unlocking different download links.

~~~
teddyh
For those who don’t understand the reference:

[https://gizmodo.com/congratulations-to-ea-games-for-
posting-...](https://gizmodo.com/congratulations-to-ea-games-for-posting-the-
most-hated-1820391000)

------
WrtCdEvrydy
Don't worry guys, I created a PR to fix it.

This is an open source project so I'm sure this will be priority one as soon
as the Docker project admins get online
([https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/pull/7242](https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/pull/7242))

~~~
m_eiman
Fixing a PR problem with a PR, neat.

------
barrystaes
This one comment sums up the changes nicely:
[https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issue...](https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issuecomment-414553120)
A download went from 5 steps to 12 steps, to improve the Docker experience?

The irony is the resulting statistics might actually say less people had a
negative experience with docker, now they dont even download and try it...

~~~
yAnonymous
No, the improvement comes from reversing the change. Turn things to shit, then
take credit for improving them.

Really smart move by the UX team.

------
bcoughlan
It's not a good move, but I don't understand the vitriol expressed on Github,
calling the developers jerks etc.

Our company has never paid Docker for anything, but we've benefited greatly
from having Docker images be the output of our backend build jobs. I never
have to dig into classpath errors from conflicting JARs any more, or deal with
out of date JDKs living on QA and production machines. I can deploy a
dependent service that I know nothing about without digging through code and
documentation. Yes it has its issues but the positives far outweigh the
negatives.

I understand that it's a frustrating move and the wrong path to go to for
monetization, but can we also recognize that it's a company has done a lot for
the community and is struggling to secure its future, instead of calling them
names?

~~~
michaelt

      I don't understand the vitriol expressed on Github
    

Some people see a change making the UX worse promoted as a change that
improves the UX, and feel it's an honest mistake that will be corrected by
straightforward, constructive feedback.

Other people see the same thing and think the dishonesty is intentional.
Docker would hardly be the first company to do this [1] - but some people may
have seen Docker as 'not like those other companies' and be disappointed to
discover they are.

[1] [http://dilbert.com/strip/1998-08-09](http://dilbert.com/strip/1998-08-09)

~~~
troydavis
Your summary doesn’t line up with the linked-to GitHub issue.
“Straightforward, constructive” feedback was provided by the issue creator and
was seemingly ignored.

------
ghayes
Can anyone post an experience using rkt [0]. I'd love an alternative to using
Docker for containers, though I'm not sure how well a community has evolved
around rkt.

[0] [https://github.com/rkt/rkt](https://github.com/rkt/rkt)

~~~
edoceo
This comment made/makes me steer away

[https://github.com/rkt/rkt/issues/3912](https://github.com/rkt/rkt/issues/3912)

There is another open issue claiming the project is dead (but maybe it's just
stable)

My whole team is onboard with docker, and we don't need account to
install/use.

~~~
ori_b
Why do you believe that churn is a good thing, especially for a thin wrapper
around Linux namespaces? There should not be much this is actually doing, so
lots of commits would be worrying.

~~~
edoceo
I didn't say that that churn is a good thing.

The github-issue and a sibling are folks asking this question. Why? Lingering
bugs? Waiting for features? That the question is open is the concern.

And again, compared to my existing tooling which is not having that question
and has momentum.

Evaluated against docker (a recent move for us) but didn't choose. We also
looked a "roll your own" type solutions - required expertise our team didn't
have.

------
2T1Qka0rEiPr
I can understand why people hate this, but this comment did make me laugh:

> Do you want to be Oracle? Because this is how you become Oracle. -1

Revenue: "US$39.83 billion (2018)" \- I can see a few reasons why they _might_
hah

------
bmc7505
If you're frustrated with Docker's slow pace of development are are looking
for a good alternative, have a look at Singularity containers. They're
interoperable with Docker Hub and OCI compatible images, and offer a much
better experience for HPC, machine learning and big data environments. Their
GPU support is top notch. They don't run on as many platforms as Docker, but
are aiming to grow into cross-platform. Sylabs is a small team in Austin, TX
that does a lot of the development work, but they are quickly gaining adoption
in academia. It's available on Cedar and Graham in Compute Canada (a large
supercomputing cluster that serves most of Canada). We use Singularity on all
our lab machines as it is much easier for IT admins to manage, and doesn't
require sudo access. Their GPU support is top notch.

[https://www.sylabs.io/](https://www.sylabs.io/)

~~~
thanatropism
Your repetition repetition of "their gpu support is top notch" reminded me of
Florida man Marco Rubio in those 2015 presidential debates.

~~~
bmc7505
The topmost of notches. Very reproducible and user-friendly.
[https://devblogs.nvidia.com/docker-compatibility-
singularity...](https://devblogs.nvidia.com/docker-compatibility-singularity-
hpc/)

------
ngngngng
Docker is too heavy for golang, which is all I use scaled horizontally
anymore. I can easily create a binary for any operating system. With dep (and
even more so vgo) reproducible builds just really aren't a problem with
golang. But when i've got a virtually unlimited number of green threads I can
spin up with goroutines, why do I need to containerize to scale horizontally?

~~~
dberg
Have you checked out alpine ? Very lightweight image.

~~~
hoschicz
Since Go programs are statically linked, is even something like Alpine
required? Isn't it possible to just build the Go binary from the "scratch"
image? Maybe throw in glibc in there

------
jillesvangurp
Annoying but not the end of the world IMHO. In any case, I have a dockerhub
account so I can publish containers there; so I might as well use it.
Similarly I have a Github account and am actually a paying customer as well.
The bottom line is I have accounts left right and center for things that I
depend on professionally. Some of these I even pay for but most of them I
don't pay a penny.

This is a closed source product distributed for free. They are well in their
rights to charge money for it even. Given that and given how important this
product is for my day to day routine (I run lots of docker stuff all the
time), and given that docker has been contributing a lot of OSS code in this
space, I think this is a relatively small and entirely fair price to pay.

I don't agree with the sense of entitlement in this thread. Docker providing a
free community edition of a product they've built that allows running docker
on top of Mac/Windows is not charity but a means for them to up-sell their
commercial solutions. That's the only reason it exists. I'm grateful that it
exists and I hope that they can make this work so I can continue to depend on
this.

An alternative is getting a linux laptop and running pure open source versions
of whatever containerization you require.

------
numbsafari
The Oracle acquisition must be nigh... emulate the master to gain his approval
you must!

~~~
deadbunny
Hell even Oracle let you download the latest version without logging in.

------
amaccuish
I also can't delete my account myself after having created it. I believe the
best way to operate is to make something as easy to delete as it was to
create...

~~~
larkeith
Pretty sure that violates GDPR. Might want to email them about that.

~~~
amaccuish
Ye I only managed to find a "feedback" email address.

If they're going to make you have an account, they could have thought about
what if people want their account deleted...

~~~
bigiain
You have to look around a bit, but:

"Customers may view, update or change their registration information by
logging in to their accounts at www.docker.com. Requests to access, change, or
delete your information will be handled within 30 days."

"Questions regarding this Privacy Policy or the information practices of the
Website should be directed to privacy@docker.com or by mailing Docker Privacy,
144 Townsend Street, San Francisco, CA 94107."

[https://www.docker.com/legal/docker-privacy-
policy](https://www.docker.com/legal/docker-privacy-policy)

~~~
amaccuish
Cheers, lifesaver <3\. I'll resend my email there. I will remember to look
harder next time.

------
msl09
Docker is my perfect example of a OSS being poisoned by excessive money.

OSS needs money to survive but too much of it (a too heavy burden to turn a
profit) can poison it leading to significant issues being ignored because
either the paying customers are not affected or because the issue is an
integral part of the business model.

I wished someone were able to fork docker and strip off all of the extra fluff
(mainly service stuff) but I don't think anyone without deep pockets can
support such massively complex software.

------
Rauchg
On macOS, I recommend: `brew cask install docker`

~~~
jjeaff
on windows, I recommend `choco install docker.for.windows`

~~~
ulzeraj
Risking a derail how is chocolatey nowadays? I really liked the idea but
stopped using it because most of the packets were way behind the current
versions.

~~~
bacongobbler
Chocolatey is in the same space as the AUR (Arch User Repositories) in my
opinion. It can be a hit or miss, but usually a hit. The support is fantastic
when there's a bunch of users consuming the project as many users will
contribute fixes to the package (e.g. packages for devs like node, cURL, git,
etc). On the other hand, less popular packages will occasionally suffer from
bitrot, though that all depends on the maintainer and whether or not the
package has been configured to update automatically upon new releases.

See also [https://chocolatey.org/docs/package-triage-
process#package-i...](https://chocolatey.org/docs/package-triage-
process#package-is-outdated)

------
_zachs
Congratulations Docker, the only "user experience" this has enhanced is making
me start to learn about cri-o.

------
Traubenfuchs
It is very sad to see the official reasoning to be "to make sure we can
improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward".

This is a blatant politician-talk-tier lie.

------
hardwaresofton
Can anyone who works inside PR for software-developer facing companies like
Docker explain how a decision like this could make it past vetting?

Any software developer (who isn't drunk on the kool aid?) could tell you that
this would result in loss of good will.

~~~
majewsky
Companies do not consist of 100% software developers.

------
delbel
Ubuntu for raspberry pi requires a ubuntu login continue installing it, after
formatting and setting the network up. It won't let you boot into a working
setup until you create account on their website. Kind of hard if you don't
have access to any other device.

~~~
niemeyer
I work for Canonical on snapd, so can provide some background here.

You're probably describing Ubuntu Core instead of classic Ubuntu. The UX there
is oriented for devices, and it was cooked to avoid default passwords in an
environment in which the device often will have no display. So once you boot,
the device is in a running state, and the brand (manufacturer) that cooked the
image has the choice of allowing individuals to login or not. In addition to a
store account, the brand can also offer a "system-user" assertion, that is a
signed document that you can present devices to get a system user in. That
assertion may detail remote login, SSH keys, and also a hashed password for
independent logins. That only works once on the device, though, for obvious
reasons.

For generic Ubuntu Core devices the "brand" is Canonical, and for those
devices you can get an assertion signed and with it log into any number of
devices you want. That procedure may be done over USB storage, for example.
Just insert a USB key into the device and your user credentials will be setup,
even if it's completely offline. Again, that only works once on the device. If
you lose the keys the device will need to be factory-reset.

~~~
dserodio
Great explanation, thanks

------
sgarg26
Is Docker having trouble monetizing?

~~~
wmf
Always has been.

------
sjellis
Buildah seems to be becoming a replacement for Docker on the desktop:

[https://github.com/projectatomic/buildah](https://github.com/projectatomic/buildah)

Pure CLI tool that does not run a daemon, from Red Hat, recently hit version
1. Unfortunately, I don't think that macOS is supported yet.

~~~
spacenick88
I really want to like this and conceptually the idea of being a simple command
is appealing. That said, I feel like writing a shell script and especially
their example is really really off putting. For one the flexibility it offers
means people are going to use that flexibility to do weird stuff, second a
shell script far too easily captures dependencies to it's environment again
making things non-reproducible. If you allow people to put local paths,
dependencies on local weirdnesses and so on in their build scripts they will,
I've seen it happen time and again.

------
gnu8
Sorry, I have store fatigue and I don't need another one.

------
hashrate
This is pretty much a reality check. Like any other business , Open Source
needs funding.

It's well know Docker is far from being profitable. This is somewhat
represents how ultimately money always win on open source one way or another.

~~~
majewsky
> Like any other business, Open Source needs funding.

That's a valid comment... for a different discussion. The actual issue here is
that Docker's business model is falling apart, with alternative container
runtimes (cri-o, rkt, etc.) and alternative orchestrators (mostly k8s) eating
their lunch. And all of those are open source too.

------
appleflaxen
The interesting part to me: this has been open since June 20.

Anyone know why it just captured the collective attention of HN readers?

------
kbumsik
I wonder how requiring login to download helps a company in general? Docker
says "improve experience for users" but is collecting download counts for each
accounts important?

~~~
mdavidn
Lead generation.

~~~
rpeden
I think there's a good chance that's the answer.

All they need to do is take every e-mail address that's not @
gmail/hotmail/outlook.com/other free providers, zip them through something
like the Clearbit API to flesh out info about the person, and then forward
promising prospects on to the sales team for some personal attention.

I don't even mind companies doing this, as long as they're honest about why
they're asking me to register.

------
m-p-3

        we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward
    

The login-wall is not a great start :/

------
philip1209
[https://get.docker.com](https://get.docker.com)

------
alexandernst
oh my... they are getting the full version of “improved user experience” in
their github comments right now.

------
ManoMarks
Hi I head up Docker Developer Relations. There are plenty of ways to get
Docker CE without logging Docker Store. See my comment on GitHub for more
details.

[https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issue...](https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issuecomment-414758273)

~~~
hu3
As someone pointed out in the Github issue, Docker Toolbox is legacy. I'm not
sure how I feel about recommending outdated software to Mac and Windows. It's
also slower and not the default way to get Docker.

------
mevile
It's in Docker's interest to capture as much value as they can from their
products, their calculus is changing. It's their decision to make, however
passing it off as in the best interest of users is a bit of a whopper and not
the best way to communicate it. I don't think entitlement to other people's
work is the best response though.

~~~
alkonaut
The outrage is 90% from the fact that they call it "improve the user
experience going forward".

If they had just said "we need some leads/emails to monetize this thing a
little more, hope you understand. Use a throwaway email or the well-hidden
direct download if this change makes you uncomfortable", nearly no one would
have complained.

~~~
chii
> nearly no one would have complained.

except their marketing and sales department (and associated CxO level people
who needs to see more revenue!)

------
yuiiug
I know about cri-o for the server, but are there any good alternatives for
local development?

------
T-Winsnes
Still available through their doco [https://docs.docker.com/v17.12/docker-for-
mac/install/](https://docs.docker.com/v17.12/docker-for-mac/install/)

------
owaislone
Kubernetes will eventually just kill docker. It's the best way to run docker
in the cloud right now and keeps getting better. Plus it abstracts docker with
pods. Better support for OCI/Rkt and docker will just die.

------
parliament32
This is probably the straw that broke the camel's back for Docker. Not that
anyone expected it to stick around for that long anyway, they've had a
terrible history of failure and poor design choices.

------
bborud
Well, I suppose it is time to realise that Docker has perhaps become a bit too
dominant and that the ecosystems of which it is a part, might benefit from
there being more alternatives.

------
yeukhon
This feels like Oracle.

------
phobosdeimos
"Uhuh. You mean, force people to login with an email so we can target them
with an ad campaign so we make money??"

Good luck with I'm behind 1000 spam filters.

------
fudoo
I found the real problem with Docker to be that it downloads things from their
repository. Just like Maven, it's a major pain point.

~~~
knicholes
You'd be pleased to use docker-registry, then! We use Artifactory that runs
its a docker-registry compatible something (maybe it's running docker-registry
itself?) for our artifacts.

~~~
thiagocsf
The free version of Artifactory doesn’t support Docker registries.

Nexus 3 OSS does.

------
bandrami
guix environment --container [ list of packages ] -- command

I haven't looked back since they added that in the last version. Configurable
network namespace sharing or isolation, configurable fs namespace sharing or
isolation, configurable environment variables within the container, and the
option to "pack" the entire thing as a tar.gz to deploy.

------
arminiusreturns
As a sysadmin I'm so glad I skipped the docker craze and just dug into
kvm/qemu/proxmox/lxc more.

------
Legogris
Correct me if I am wrong, but all components of Docker CE are open source and
one could therefore still download and build the binaries themselves, right?

I really don't see the issue of requiring hoops to get precompiled binaries as
long as there is a way to get and build the binaries yourself.

------
schlotzisk
You can download it here --> [https://docs.docker.com/v17.09/docker-for-
windows/install/#d...](https://docs.docker.com/v17.09/docker-for-
windows/install/#download-docker-for-windows)

------
chrisper
Quite hilarious that this guy's motto is "I help high-tech companies cross the
chasm by making their products easier to use and learn"

[http://www.joaofn.com/about/](http://www.joaofn.com/about/)

He is doing quite the opposite

~~~
amouat
I think we should avoid commenting about the dev's background. It was clearly
a company decision and the discussion should be at that level.

~~~
chrisper
He isn't even a developer. He just documents stuff, if I understand that
correctly and makes it sound like he is a messias.

------
artursapek
I noticed this today! Thankfully I was able to dig up their instructions for
Ubuntu installation which just depend on apt, and they still worked fine. You
can practically hear the Docker devs fighting with PMs/business guys about
this one.

------
tempodox
> ...we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and
> Windows experience for users moving forward.

Such obvious run-of-the-mill marketing BS. Moving forward, I'll give Docker a
wide berth.

------
SEJeff
If you don't want to use your email to download docker, use bugmenot:

[http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com](http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com)

------
j45
I find this troubling as well. Reminds me of having to log in for mysql.

------
olafure
There's an alternative, without the docker overhead,
[https://coreos.com/rkt/](https://coreos.com/rkt/)

------
vectorEQ
[https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/](https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/) <\---
you're welcome. if u don't need some producer who obviously prefers money over
user happiness or quality. just use true open source things. ultimatley that's
the attitude that leads to them seling your information or maybe
worse...(wether they do it NOW or not is irrelevant) docker is your infra...
nice spot for backdoor once it closes itself further from public..., wether
they are doing it NOW or not, i'd look for another road to this rome you seek

------
Sir_Cmpwn
I have never installed Docker through any route other than a Linux
distribution's package manager. Why would anyone use the download in the first
place?

~~~
deadbunny
Because this is about Windows/MacOS downloads.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
Was it really necessary for you to say the same thing aneutron, the only other
reply, said an hour ago?

~~~
deadbunny
I had the tab open for a while so didn't see their reply. So no, not
"necessary" just accidental. Sorry to have cause you such mental anguish by
answering your question which would have been answered if you had read any of
the thread or the linked GH issue.

------
test6554
If money is an issue, perhaps docker should make container authors host their
own stuff and just make them searchable/discoverable in dockerhub.

~~~
hashrate
> host their own stuff and just make them searchable/discoverable

You aware that hosting probably represent 1% of Docker spending at the moment
?

You aware that Docker has 100+ employees based in SF where the average salary
is 120K$/Year ?

And here I'm being gentle not to include the management[0] which in general
has salary closer to 300K than 120K

[0] [https://www.docker.com/company](https://www.docker.com/company)

~~~
test6554
I wasn't aware. Thanks!

------
dvfjsdhgfv
I'm very curious how this develops. It was already a bit strange to notice
that one of the several container technologies available got significantly
more visibility thanks to a smart marketing team and targeting Mac and Windows
users. Personally, I'm using LXC and related technologies and see no benefit
in switching to Docker whatsoever. Eventually most people run their containers
on Linux anyway, and the LXC's way of doing things seems very native and
natural in this environment.

------
gsich
"user experience", what a lame excuse.

------
sahoo
Have fun. [https://download.docker.com/](https://download.docker.com/)

------
mirimir
So hey, [https://anonbox.net/](https://anonbox.net/) works fine.

------
jpic
I'm really sorry for the proprietary OS users, that's really a shame that they
have to give their email to docker inc. now, if they haven't already (docker
hub anyone ?), everytime they install docker on a machine (once per install
?), all this crying its makes mes wanna cry :'(

------
jpic
If you care about free software, why not run a free OS ? just wondering ...

------
zatkin
Oracle recently did this for the Oracle Client libraries too. Shame.

------
darth_mastah
So you have to log in to Docker Store on Windows and on Mac. I sort of get the
frustration. Using one of these systems for development is a painful
experience on its own, no need to make it more miserable.

------
blt
torrents would be a good way to deal with this.

------
dabockster
Stuff like this is why mirrors are a thing.

------
amelius
Somebody should create a mirror site.

------
aurelien
That is for your security!

------
Ra1d3n
Thank god for GDPR.

------
type0
This ship is sinking and all the rats has already left

------
kolderman
Did someone say _cough_ serverless _cough_?

------
threeseed
Not sure what the issue is here.

You can download Docker from many other sources without a login. And they are
only putting the Docker Community Edition behind the email paywall as pretty
much every open source/freemium company does these days.

------
Kiro
This issue was opened in the docs repo and it was closed in that context,
which was correct (the docs do not need to change as for now).

The docs do not dictate how you download Docker and joaofnfernandes is only
responsible for the docs as far as I can tell.

------
codedokode
We decided to spend a minute of your time for registration to improve your
experience (and another minute that it will take to unsubscribe from spam
later).

But I think it's only fair. Those developers who dislike this probably do the
same to their users.

------
acorkery
Bit of a cliché, but nothing is free. You are choosing to use technology
provided by a for-profit company. Community Edition does not mean it's owned
by the community. It's absolutely irritating to have to create an account and
login when you just want to try something, but if you're invested in a
technology and the company that provides it (at no direct monetary cost to
you), I don't think it's worth getting stroppy about. Plenty of other more
sinister and cynical things happening in tech right now to get riled about

------
notyourwork
Headlines false, I just did this a few days ago.

~~~
SkyPuncher
> I just did this a few days ago

.....or....possibly....this change happened within the past few days?

~~~
notyourwork
It appears that it did change in last few days because I had a conversation
with a teammate and remember asking about signing up for an account and he
showed me how to download without. However, today I cannot find the same
navigation path when trying so I think something changed.

------
tannhaeuser
Good. Maybe we can get back to writing software, rather than spending our time
on pointless deployment scripting, tools, and reiventing wheels. Or have
developers interested in containers spend their efforts on standardized rather
than Linux-only solutions. Docker has IMHO never made any sense for the use
cases people seem to have in mind, as it really doesn't isolate you from
anything (neither from the host O/S nor Docker itself). Docker, Inc. touting
the security aspect doesn't hold merit given Docker must be run as root, and
containers can't use host system permissions etc.

~~~
majewsky
> Good. Maybe we can get back to writing software, rather than spending our
> time on pointless deployment scripting, tools, and reiventing wheels.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Since our team switched to
Docker/Kubernetes, I've spent considerably _less_ time on pointless deployment
scripting and reinventing wheels.

------
zapita
I understand the rationale for filing this issue, although I personally
disagree with it... Docker for Mac is great freeware, and I don’t mind logging
into Steam and Mac Store for my other apps, so I don’t have an issue with
doing the same with Docker. But for someone who greatly cares about not having
to give their email, I can see how it can be annoying to see the policy change
after they started using the software...

Either way... Holy shit is that github thread full of negativity and
entitlement! Pretty shocking. Even if you’re unhappy with something, that’s no
way to treat a team that is giving you a tool for free!

~~~
gameswithgo
>Either way... Holy shit is that github thread full of negativity and
entitlement! Pretty shocking. Even if you’re unhappy with something, that’s no
way to treat a team that is giving you a tool for free!

I think the fact that you focus on the "entitlement" and that I focus on the
fact that the maintainer gave a bullshit, misleading answer to an important
question, is related to the fact that you don't mind having to log in to
download a tool and I do.

