
Amazon must remove toxic school supplies, kids’ jewelry from US marketplace - tareqak
https://www.atg.wa.gov/news/news-releases/ag-ferguson-amazon-must-remove-toxic-school-supplies-kid-s-jewelry-marketplace
======
DannyBee
"Amazon entered into a nationwide legally binding agreement to block the sale
of children’s schools supplies and jewelry on Amazon.com without lab reports
and other proof from the sellers that the products are not toxic."

IE Amazon can pass the buck completely to the sellers.

This will simultaneously make it expensive for those sellers actually trying
to comply (lab testing is not cheap), and do nothing for those that were
likely the problem in the first place (who will just fake lab results and do
so at a lesser price)[1]

They should require _amazon_ to randomly sample.

[1] In case you think this is not a real problem note that similar kinds of
lab testing requirements destroyed, for example, children's toys except from
large scale sellers who could afford the cost of compliance (see
[https://www.cpsc.gov/Business--Manufacturing/Business-
Educat...](https://www.cpsc.gov/Business--Manufacturing/Business-
Education/Toy-Safety-Business-Guidance-and-Small-Entity-Compliance-Guide)).
You will find basically no small manufacturers of childrens toys anymore.
Different cause, but likely same effect.

I'm sure it made things safer in some sense, but yeah.

~~~
josho
> They should require amazon to randomly sample.

If governments cared about safety they would do the sampling and fine
companies a meaningful percent of profit. That would fix these problems once
and for all.

Unfortunately we’ve elected governments that cut regulations which encourages
the opposite behavior from companies.

~~~
wallace_f
>Unfortunately we’ve elected governments that cut regulation

It's really not that simple. The regulations here benefit Amazon. This is why
Facebook is asking to be regulated. It's called _regulatory capture._ It's a
product of corporatism or cronyism. Established corporations lobby for
regulations that shut out small business and protect their profits.

~~~
daveFNbuck
While I care a lot about having a competitive marketplace, it's much more
important to me that I and my family aren't poisoned. Are you saying that
smaller companies can't compete with Amazon if everyone has to check that
they're not poisoning us?

~~~
Mirioron
> _Are you saying that smaller companies can 't compete with Amazon if
> everyone has to check that they're not poisoning us?_

Yes, because this adds cost to manufacturing. Imagine if you yourself wanted
to make and sell children's jewelry. How difficult would it be for you to get
a lab to test all of the stuff you make? Could you make any money after you
subtract the cost of these kinds of lab tests?

A large company has economies of scale. Finding a lab is a much smaller
portion of the cost for them compared to you.

~~~
SiempreViernes
Well, I think most of us make due with just buying ingredients that _aren 't_
poisonous when we cook (with the assurance in part coming from independent
quality control of said ingredients).

But I'm sure I must have missed why this general principle couldn't be used
for other things that we don't want to be toxic.

~~~
Mirioron
But the whole argument is that buying parts/ingredients that aren't poisonous
isn't enough. You still have to spend a lot of resources on testing. I think
that these kinds of regulations should scale with the size of the
company/revenue/profit. Smaller companies shouldn't have as great of a burden,
so as to encourage competition. (There should still be punishments for them
failing though. Eg you're not required to test if you're small, but you can
still be punished for selling poisonous products.)

~~~
KevanM
Most regions have prescribed safety standards to meet, for instance the
kitemark or the CE mark
([http://www.safekids.co.uk/toysafetymarks.html)[http://www.sa...](http://www.safekids.co.uk/toysafetymarks.html\)\[http://www.safekids.co.uk/toysafetymarks.html\])
show an item meets the regulatory safety requirements - these aren't added by
stores, they are obtained by the manufacturer so that its products can be sold
in stores across Britain and Europe.

Saying that the onus should be on stores is crazy, unless you accept that a
company should have exclusive rights to your product at which point it become
a licensed product and would probably be branded as such.

~~~
Mirioron
Oh, I completely agree that the onus shouldn't really be on the store. I was
talking about manufacturers that sell it themselves.

------
ng12
Good. Amazon is just lazy when it comes to product quality. Any non-specialty
product has a pretty high chance of being a fake and/or manufactured with sub-
standard materials. It's shaken my confidence to the point where, even as a
card-carrying Prime member, I'd rather shlep over to Target than order from
Amazon.

~~~
ethbro
Precisely. If I can't trust Amazon to detect a counterfeit Apple charger, then
why would I trust them to test anything for something even more subtle?

~~~
ninjakeyboard
Amazon isn't making this, they probably don't see samples of every good, and
they definitely don't grind up the whole product and test it. It's paint and
pigment that has lead/cadmium so only certain colours and portions of the
products will have these qualities.

~~~
duxup
They don't test, but I'm not sure they care so much about the volume of fakes
and vendors selling them.

Amazon sells illegitimate books with identical covers to a legit copy and
keeps selling them after the authors contact Amazon .... like it's not even
hard to detect those, but they don't.

~~~
nostrebored
Detecting individual merchants distributing fake book copies to potentially
one of many stores in a multi national distribution network is simple?

~~~
duxup
The examples I'm thinking of were authors who published their own book and
ordered the printing themselves. They weren't printing in bulk and then
distributing them... it was direct only.

Amazon simply didn't care when fakes started showing up, missing pages, bad
printing, but the covers were always identical.

------
mmastrac
This isn't just Amazon. CBC in Canada found lead and cadmium in major
retailers in Canada. It's cheap chinese imports that are the problem overall.

[https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cadmium-jewelry-ardene-
aldo-1...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cadmium-jewelry-ardene-
aldo-1.3404036)

~~~
imglorp
Pet food also, containing melamine for whatever reason, responsible for a
number of deaths 10 years ago.

[https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/recalls-
withdrawals/me...](https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/recalls-
withdrawals/melamine-pet-food-recall-frequently-asked-questions)

~~~
mmastrac
I had forgotten about that. IIRC it was theorized melamine was used to fake
protein tests.

------
mherdeg
A while back as a joke a friend ordered us the first 20 search results on
AliExpress for 'panda' which were less than $1 shipped.

Stuff trickled in from China, Estonia, and Myanmar over the following month or
two. We've been keeping it all in a bucket -- magnets, erasers, stickers, a
baffling little squishy rainbow caterpillar panda, and mostly very small plush
animal toys. The winner of the batch was a surprisingly high-quality hand
puppet.

We let our toddler play with a couple of these tiny toys because they seemed
fun; we did make him wash his hands afterwards before eating, but still in
retrospect I think that was a mistake. There are zero enforced regulatory
requirements for that marketplace and those manufacturers at that price point,
and we have no way of knowing what cheap but toxic paint or additives were
used. We should probably just dump the panda bucket :(

~~~
Symbiote
The Estonian toy ought to comply with EU regulations (maybe only if it's also
sold in the EU). These are fairly strict.

I can't find reports of Eastern European being non-conformant more often than
Western European goods, but I haven't looked very much.

You can look for a CE mark:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking)

------
benjamincburns
Amazon is becoming more and more like AliExpress with respect to product
accuracy and quality. As an example, I recently bought tomato seeds for my
garden. I searched for rainbow tomatoes, and the bulk of the results were
clearly photoshopped photos made to look like they'd grow tomatoes with colors
that'd get lost in a ball pit.

It's easy to evaluate on things like that, but on stuff where corners can be
cut I definitely worry.

~~~
discreditable
A while back I bought habanero seeds on Amazon. They sprouted and did well,
but they put out regular sweet peppers. I've bought catnip seeds that were
fine. Anymore, I only buy seeds from the store though.

------
Someone1234
They should also be required to remove the "SoClean." A device designed to
intentionally pump toxic ozone into medical breathing assistance devices.

Ozone has a limit but studies have shown even below the legal limit[0][1][2]
can be considered harmful. The population that typically use devices like
CPAPs may be more vulnerable than the general populous to ozone exposure (and
this exposure is targeted due to the usage of the "SoClean").

Mark my words: This will be looked back on like asbestos, radon clocks, and
giving kids x-ray toys.

[0] [https://www.healtheffects.org/research/ongoing-
research/effe...](https://www.healtheffects.org/research/ongoing-
research/effects-ozone-human-volunteers-exposed-low-levels-ozone-laboratory)

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5755393/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5755393/)

[2]
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060216231940.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060216231940.htm)

~~~
verelo
I’ve got a UV filter in my furnace that i believe produces ozone, should i be
concerned in your opinion?

~~~
Someone1234
There's two types of UV Air Filters, based on UV-A and UV-C. UV-A systems
don't produce much ozone (but sometimes the bulbs are imperfect and produce a
trace amount). Ozone is produced by ultraviolet light in the 160–240nm range,
meaning UV-C.

If you have a UV-C based UV Filter I wouldn't call that ideal but at least
you're still receiving less than a ozone generator or even an ioniser both of
which would produce higher ozone levels.

You may still wish to crack a window occasionally and look at a HEPA filter
next major upgrade cycle.

------
bertm
I worked for a long time as a chemical engineer making cadmium containing
quantum dots. We had many discussions inside the company about complying with
the EPA's TSCA regulations. [https://www.epa.gov/laws-regulations/summary-
toxic-substance...](https://www.epa.gov/laws-regulations/summary-toxic-
substances-control-act)

The reason why these regulations exist was because toys and consumer goods
would be imported with red paint that contained cadmium.

Usually the importer is responsible for complying or at least reporting to the
EPA under TSCA.

------
weiming
We wanted to order Evian or Fiji bottled water from Amazon but were put off by
reviews mentioning oddly attached labels, misshapen bottles, wrong tint on
bottle caps. So we just stuck with local supermarket water delivery. Fake
water? Wondering if anyone has tried ordering these.

~~~
Symbiote
Why would you want water carried from halfway around the planet anyway? That's
an awful waste of resources.

------
dqpb
They should also let you filter by country of origin.

~~~
saagarjha
This will likely not be useful: now you can't buy iPhones, and many companies
will perform "assembly" in the United States to get around these kinds of
things.

~~~
bastawhiz
If I'm buying clothes for the gym, I don't want to buy "ROWILUX" or "YAKER" or
"YSENTO" brand. I've bought enough to know they're all junk. Just show me the
stuff that people actually put effort into! If I'm looking for an iPhone, I'll
search for iPhones. If I'm looking for tank tops, show me the ones that aren't
going to disintegrate after a month.

~~~
astura
Jeez, I thought you were making up those brand names. Turns out they are real

[https://www.amazon.com/sp?seller=A3P9TYWGAPWJQM](https://www.amazon.com/sp?seller=A3P9TYWGAPWJQM)

[https://www.amazon.com/stores/YAKER/node/13187735011](https://www.amazon.com/stores/YAKER/node/13187735011)

[https://www.amazon.com/stores/ROWILUX/主页/page/2DD5E212-93B0-...](https://www.amazon.com/stores/ROWILUX/主页/page/2DD5E212-93B0-458F-B4DF-1F73CE6A14F5)

~~~
makomk
Oh, that's nothing. Try doing a search for ARSUXEO (mostly cycling
clothing)...

------
Roark66
This whole situation is the result of countries like China that most of those
products are made in lack a real justice system. Anyone who has ever tried to
sue a Chinese company in a Chinese court knows it is impossible for a
foreigner to win. Ever. No matter the evidence. If China had a just justice
system as exists in many other countries developing and developed this problem
wouldn't exist. Unfortunately in today's China you can still be sure you will
keep your money you made conning people as long as those people are
foreigners.

~~~
apta
And people still protest at the sanctions the US government is imposing on
China. If it gets garbage products off the market, I'm all for it.

------
AlexandrB
As a retailer, Amazon has become incredibly lazy. Ironically, books is where
this shows the most. In my area they now just ship them in padded envelopes,
meaning at least 50% of the time the book arrives with dented corners, or a
damaged cover.

------
mtnGoat
As a Washing State resident, I am happy to see our state leading the charge in
these kinds of efforts.

------
docker_up
FFS now we have to worry about this too? I guess I'm naive but I trusted
Amazon but it makes sense that they just sold whatever they wanted without
testing.

They should have dedicated 10X the $700,000 and have been fined, my God I'm
upset right now.

------
everybodyknows
The scary thing is, Amazon is required only to collect a piece of paper from
the seller and yank products when notified -- the really substantial burden of
continuing enforcements is put back on the individual states:

"Moreover, if the Attorney General or Washington Department of Ecology advise
Amazon of any children’s school supplies or jewelry that exceed safe levels,
Amazon must remove the product from its online marketplace within two business
days."

Nothing less than a program of frequent random sampling is going to keep the
products clean. Times 50, plus international.

------
rgrieselhuber
It would be useful to have items that are foreign imports clearly labeled on
Amazon.

~~~
markdown
That would be most things. It would make (a little) more sense to tag "Made in
USA" products.

~~~
rgrieselhuber
That works too

------
css
They did this recently to non-UL certified power equipment, no surprise
they’re expanding to other product categories.

------
rjmunro
As a Brit, I find the title of this really hard to parse. I was trying to work
out if "toxic school supplies" was some sort of brand of jewelry or something.

Why don't American's use an "and" here:

> Amazon must remove toxic school supplies and kids’ jewelry from US
> marketplace

To me, that's much clearer.

~~~
Majromax
> Why don't American's use an "and" here:

Doing so is still standard American English. However, headline writing in
particular has a tradition of extreme brevity, and this style leaves out
conjunctions and adjectives (including articles).

As another example of ambiguity, the article title here isn't explicitly clear
that Amazon must remove these items from _its_ marketplace. Read literally,
"from US marketplace" could imply (somehow) the entire United States retail
environment.

------
josefresco
If Amazon doesn't get a handle on quality control, and product
misrepresentation/swapping scams they will start to be perceived as
Ebay/AliExpress/Wish.com where "anything goes".

I realize Ebay has controls to protect consumers, but the perception for
everyday people is that it's risky, but you might find a deal.

I rarely use Ebay anymore, and in fact just purchased some sneakers there
after probably 6+ years of not purchasing anything. I crossed my fingers,
fully expected to be ripped off and lucked out, the product was exactly as
advertised. I would not have purchased them if the discount wasn't so
dramatic. This is all anecdotal based on my experience and the exp of my peer
group.

------
abeppu
I get that kids are especially vulnerable, but shouldn't we also try to not
sell stuff which is non-obviously toxic for use by adults also? Why should any
consumer have to be afraid that a backpack or book cover has a high amount of
lead?

------
pjc50
Again on the poor Amazon quality and co-mingling - is this a US only problem
or is it also present in the EU? Note that we already have a CE marking
requirement which is supposed to imply a certain level of safety.

------
netwanderer3
It's pretty great to witness a policy or law that was applied correctly by a
government to prevent further public damages, no matter how big the target
corporation is.

------
jorblumesea
Good, why is being online a pass for selling toxic products? I don't
understand the standards we apply. If Target or Walmart sold lead laced school
supplies people would flip, regardless of who actually made the product. It is
on the distributor to guarantee the product quality and supply chain quality.
I've always failed to understand why being online has made them untouchable.

~~~
edejong
Exactly this. Perhaps the reasoning is that Amazon functions more like a
bazaar, offering other companies a storefront. But then I’d expect expression
of identity of these storefronts as well.

------
xfitm3
The law finally catches up with online retailers.

------
jxramos
What's the root cause precisely for where all this toxic material originates
from? How does it get into a factory in the first place? Is it some kind of
sabotage or is this stuff inherently in raw materials that require processing
that is omitted? How does one find oneself with a bunch of lead in this day
and age without seeking it out?

~~~
freeone3000
Lead and cadmium are used in paints - lead for white, cadmium for yellow. The
west has discontinued them for toxicity reasons, but they're still prevalent
in China.

~~~
jxramos
Does that mean they’re deliberately added to paints? How does one produce
paint with and without these chemicals?

~~~
aidenn0
They are added to pigments, that are then mixed into the paints. The company
mixing the paints may or may not know those chemicals are in the pigments that
they purchase from another supplier.

------
djsumdog
How exactly does this much lead get into these products? Are they on shared
assembly lines with bullet manufacturing?!

~~~
swebs
China imports garbage and recycles it for raw materials. A lot of that garbage
contains circuit boards, which use solder composed of 50% lead.

------
benatkin
Or not. Amazon is just a platform, remember?

------
mproud
Only $700,000?

------
zelpo
Just last week I was picking my son up from school when I noticed he had a can
of Xylene in his bookbag. I asked him where he got it and he said Aamazon

~~~
Symbiote
The primary reason I'm aware of for a youth to have xylene is solvent abuse
(glue sniffing, essentially).

It's illegal to sell it to someone under 18 in the UK.

------
AnaniasAnanas
Shouldn't there be criminal charges for this?

------
userbinator
I wonder what they're using the lead and cadmium for? Also, "toxic" may be
overexaggerating; "poisonous" or even "possibly harmful" might be more
accurate, but even then, from what I understand you'd have to _consume_ a lot
of it for it to be a problem.

(I worked on electronics and soldered with real lead solder for many decades,
starting when I was a kid, and think RoHS and the lead-ban has caused far more
environmental problems.)

Edit: apparently controversial opinions are not welcome here either...? Or is
it the "chemicals are scary" crowd again? :|

~~~
onion2k
_Also, "toxic" may be overexaggerating; "poisonous" or even "possibly harmful"
might be more accurate, but even then, from what I understand you'd have to
consume a lot of it for it to be a problem._

Toxic is definitely the correct term. Heavy metals like lead and cadmium don't
get excreted by your body; they build up in the brain and kidneys until they
kill you. For this reason there is _no_ level of exposure that's considered
safe. Even a very low level of exposure will kill you eventually.

~~~
astura
Lead exposure in children causes permanent damage to the brain and nervous
system.

------
dgzl
Whenever you say "government should do xyz", you're actually saying "the
government should steal money from taxpayers to carelessly attempt to do xyz".

~~~
ebg13
Who the fuck else is going to do it? Clearly not the market or the products
wouldn't be there right now. Every time you argue against governments
regulating markets, you ignore the fact that regulations get written in blood.

~~~
johnisgood
Is this another instance of "who will build the roads"?

[https://mises.org/library/safety-and-market-
economy](https://mises.org/library/safety-and-market-economy)

[https://mises.org/library/what-keeps-us-
safe-0](https://mises.org/library/what-keeps-us-safe-0)

[https://mises.org/library/what-will-keep-our-food-
safe](https://mises.org/library/what-will-keep-our-food-safe)

[https://mises.org/library/do-food-makers-want-kill-
you](https://mises.org/library/do-food-makers-want-kill-you)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY5OYdGevAQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY5OYdGevAQ)

Bonus: [https://mises.org/wire/government-road-management-there-
bett...](https://mises.org/wire/government-road-management-there-better-way)

On top of that, your justification ("who the fuck else is going to do it?") of
violence ("steal money from taxpayers") is quite alarming.

~~~
millstone
Ah yes the mises, where government infringes on our right to drive drunk.

[https://mises.org/library/legalize-drunk-
driving](https://mises.org/library/legalize-drunk-driving)

~~~
dang
Please don't take HN threads further into ideological warfare. It's the last
thing we want here.

Long, tedious tit-for-tat ideological battles are right out.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

