
Apple’s independent repair program is invasive to shops and their customers - hutattedonmyarm
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qjdjnv/apples-independent-repair-program-is-invasive-to-shops-and-their-customers-contract-shows
======
ittan
I highly recommend the Rossman repair group channel for his recordings of
public right to repair bills and the hearings he attends.

Some of the testimonies make no sense

[https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup](https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup)

Edit: someone already posted below, sorry for the double posting.

~~~
m463
I liked the video where he mentioned the reality.

Repair shops cannot stock a bunch of batteries.

To replace a battery, you must provide information to apple about the phone,
then wait for a few days for a replacement battery from apple, then install
it.

Who wants to leave their phone for a few days, or visit twice?

~~~
bmn__
"Apple's Independent Repair Program is a useless PR stunt."
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rCUF-V1esM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rCUF-V1esM)

------
neuralRiot
Apple clearly doesn’t want this to happen, they only want to be able to say
they’re making progress in the right to repair issue. I used to have a shop
for professional audio and was an authorized repair center for many top
brands, never heard of such BS as Apple is asking, I had to repair the
warranties for a flat rate (they would send the needed parts) the benefit for
the shop was the out of warranty repairs and the availability of parts and
info, we had inspections too but they were just to verify that the shop and
personnel was up to the quality of the products.

------
benologist
Restricting third-party repairs, lobbying against the right to repair, and
forcing up the cost to repair must do wonders for their trade-in program.

------
specialist
The crux of the problem is authenticity.

If I buy a Gucci handbag, I want a Gucci handbag.

If the army buys an 8.8 grade high tensile bolt, it wants that exact bolt.

As a customer and DIYer, I want authentic Apple parts, or equivalent.

Both Apple and us customers have a trust problem. Apple's current solution is
to try to lockdown the supply chain. They, and every other manufacturer, needs
to do better. Apple has huge challenges with fraud and counterfeits. Whatever.

I fix a lot of my own stuff. Nerd pride (before the fall). Not so long ago, I
could get parts from directly Sears. I just rebuilt my washing machine. This
time, it was a total pain in the ass.

Trying to end my rant: Just sell Louis Russman the parts he needs. At cost.
Figure out how to make it right. So that both Apple and us customers are
confident it's all legit.

PS- My first "real" job at age 16 was fixing Apple computers at a local
dealership. This is an old problem, totally solvable.

~~~
timw4mail
Before Apple really made it a problem, most of their (computer) parts were
more generic. You may have had to take out 40 screws, but then you could swap
the drive. In that case, "authenticity" is nonsensical.

Apple's problem with independent repair seems to be more of a "squeeze all the
dollars out" issue rather than anything else.

~~~
specialist
Both can be true. Apple is both transitioning to a "rundle" (see my other
comment) and combatting fraud.

You're ignoring the rampant fraud. Just one example:

[https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/09/rampant-
chinese-i...](https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/09/rampant-chinese-
iphone-repair-fraud-forced-apple-to-develop-countermeasures)

So one consequence is Russman has to buy a $100 battery pack to cannibalize it
for a $1 chip which cannot be sourced any other way.

To reiterate:

Authenticity is a ubiquitous problem. For decades. For everyone.

Military, Amazon & eBay, fashion, chemicals, pharmalogics, etc.

Everyone.

You may disagree with Apple's strategy. But they are doing a far better job
than pretty much anyone else, absent government government oversight (eg FDA).

To expand:

Fraud and counterfeiting is a drag on the economy. Efficient open markets
require trust.

I'm disappointed that between the right to repair and trade wars (eg IP
theft), this very basic root cause isn't acknowledged.

If you (we) don't properly understand the disease, the intended cure will
surely be worse.

------
pier25
Instead of invading shops and force them, Apple could offer repair shops some
opt-in certification. This would distinguish them from the competition and
give its customers peace of mind that they are "certified by Apple".

Same thing in the end but everyone is happier.

~~~
cowsandmilk
Maybe they could even call them Apple Authorized Service Providers[0] and they
could hire Apple Certified Mac and iOS Technicians[1] that have gone through
training and tests for how to fix the products.

[0] [https://support.apple.com/en-lamr/aasp-
program](https://support.apple.com/en-lamr/aasp-program)

[1] [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205332](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT205332)

~~~
himinlomax
Are you aware that said authorized providers are not actually authorized to do
anything except mail the product to a repair center, which will usually
replace whole motherboards at outrageous prices when all that needs replacing
is a cheap fuse or connector?

------
rasz
so is CompTIA
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9JKRItHDME](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9JKRItHDME)

------
Terretta
Much of this is far less sinister if you think who most likely gets held
accountable for a battery explosion.

With 2 billion iPhones sold and 750 million in use, anything that can be done
wrong, will be done wrong, somewhere — and the easiest proximate party to
blame gets blamed.

Changes the risk reward calculus.

~~~
webmobdev
That's bullshit - millions of electrical and electronic items have been
repaired before in the past and in case something went wrong with the repair
and caused damage, it's always the person who repaired who was blamed and not
the company that manufactured the product (unless they gave faulty parts).

If Apple is really concerned about batteries exploding, all it needs to do is
to make it easy to buy original or compatible batteries for its iDevices and
provide removable batteries (like millions of other phones today still do).
The user won't even have to go to an engineer to replace the battery ... oh,
but then how would planned obsolescence work and poor Apple make more money!

~~~
briandear
> it's always the person who repaired who was blamed and not the company that
> manufactured the product (unless they gave faulty parts).

Not always. See Brown v. Quick Mix Co.

Under the doctrine of joint and several liability a plaintiff may pursue an
obligation against any one party as if they were jointly liable. That means
that if Apple were found even 0.05% responsible for a third party battery
explosion (i.e. the metal out of which they made the phones is conducive to
fragmenting in an explosion, or some other such legal gymnastics,) then The
defendant could collect 100% of the damages from Apple — even though Apple.
This means that the plaintiff could recover all of their damages even if
Apple’s share of the liability were near zero.

It’s pretty clear that those that claim “it’s always the person that repaired
who was blamed” — has never spent any time in a courtroom. That’s just
outright false.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
In that case Apple should be in favor of a Right to Repair bill that
explicitly absolves the OEM of any such liability for third party repairs,
right?

~~~
judge2020
I imagine not all state-driven right-to-repair laws will be as sensible as
Apple would like.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
How is that any reason to oppose a sensible one?

------
TheBillyMania
I don’t know. It might be better if Apple controls the repair process. The
reason is that my iPhone 11 stores a great deal of information including my
Apple Card. I don’t want any of that info getting out into the wild. In
addition, the latest cellphones are very complex. The latest iPhone used a 3D
circuit board! Who has knowledge and skill to work on that? Look I’m all for
people trying to make a living repairing stuff but the cellphone might be an
item that falls outside the mean.

~~~
rasz
1\. Apple doesnt repair, they offer replacement. No prior backup? lol you lost
all data, have a good day.

>latest iPhone used a 3D circuit board! Who has knowledge and skill to work on
that?

2\. a 40 year old stay ah home mum?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81whx_7wKHQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81whx_7wKHQ)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjZMWzXyzjU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjZMWzXyzjU)

------
dba7dba
Below is a comment by someone commenting on Rossmann's video on the
testimonies for/against right 2 repair laws. I found it quite illuminating so
here it goes.

Silicon Valley has turned us into software subscribers. Now, they are
essentially trying to turn us into hardware subscribers.

=============

Bless you Louis; you're doing important work. I think you need to widen the
scope of your argument.

I've been working in Silicon Valley for Fortune 10 corporations for 30 years
and I've been privy to "business model" conversations for decades there.

Here's my take (pardon the length): If you take a step back the essential
reality behind what Silicon Valley corporations are trying to do, is
disenfranchise consumers and abolish private property; more specifically and
more importantly, the means of labor. They've already managed to pull it off
for software; now they're essentially all subscribers. The current attitude as
it pertains to hardware reeks of this being the intent for hardware too.
Everything in software is SaaS today and the next step is to do SaaS for
hardware.

They also see that this is a prevalent model in the auto industry : Most
people don't really own their cars, they lease them and under the leasing
contract all maintenance is done by the dealership. In general, the whole
"sharing economy" (Uber and the like) is also going down that business model —
you no longer own your means of labor; they're owned by the corporation.

They don't want consumers — and especially workers, to own anything — they
want you on a leash, forever in debt, a brick in a huge Ponzi scheme where the
entire life of the worker/consumer belongs to business model and you are
nothing else than a credit line.

Keep this in mind when you argue the Right to Repair: It goes well beyond
"repair"; it goes into the very fabric of what it is to be a citizen, a worker
and consumer in a market society. Companies don't want you to repair what you
purchased from them because they don't really consider you've ever acquired
the goods; you're a hardware subscriber and they want you to be tethered to
them as a dependent; a predictable source of revenue for a publicly traded
industry that needs to predict revenue and growth each quarter.

How do you ensure predictable revenue when you're Apple ? You lock consumers
in. What does "locking-in" mean ? Alienation, subservience, dependence. I'm
not even a libertarian, nor a marxist, and there's no hidden anarchist agenda
in my arguments — I simply believe in private property as an essential pillar
of civil liberty.

If what this industry does is not "abuse of dominant position" and wilful
distortion of market forces to benefit nobody else but tech industry
shareholders, what is it ? If you've studied the past, you'll recall the
economic model of plantation owners relied on the slaves/workers not owning
the tools of their labor. You were strictly forced (or allowed) to work under
the monopoly of the plantation owners. Ironically the same model was instated
by the Soviets, although they pretended to make it legitimate by claiming
nothing belonged to any individual. Both the Bolcheviks and the plantation
owners abused their lucrative monopolies.

The foundation upon which the republic and civil liberties are built, is
private property. If many in the tech industry have their way, the US will
become one large plantation where a class of owners can shut you off your job,
your communications and your access to education and culture, simply by
remotely turning your devices into bricks. The hour is grave.

=============

~~~
II2II
The question is: how do we change this?

There are advantages to the subscription model for businesses and there are
situations where the subscription model is advantageous for consumers. The
problem for consumers arises when they have a long term interest in a product.
That is the case where they are forever in debt.

Since the article is about Apple, consider the iPhone verses the Macintosh.

For the past decade, the subscription model has (arguably) be advantageous to
both parties in the case of the iPhone. The improvements in performance and
features means that any given device is a short-term investment rather than a
long one. While it probably costs more using a subscription model, the
difference is not going to be large unless you are an outlier.

Apple's computers are a different issue. Features and performance have been
relatively stable for a long time, while being sufficient for most everyday
tasks. The initial cost is also somewhat higher in most cases. It is
reasonable to expect the consumer to see a Macintosh as a long term
investment. In spite of this, Apple has taken clear actions to move the
Macintosh towards a subscription model by following the same approach as the
iPhone.

Given the two scenarios, one of which can be seen in favor of consumers and
one of which a detriment, I am hesitant to suggest legislating away the
subscription model.

The problem comes down to ensuring choice. A consistent revenue stream is a
huge incentive for businesses. Concealing long-term costs also works to their
advantage. Once the practice becomes established in an industry, it is going
to be difficult to compete against it.

------
gatherhunterer
There are no “good guy” companies. Stop electing obstructionists who have no
interest in governing. Regulation is the only solution.

~~~
ropiwqefjnpoa
I shudder at the thought that more government is the only solution.

~~~
xtian
Please present another.

~~~
ropiwqefjnpoa
Stop buying apple or google products

~~~
xtian
To what effect?

------
ropiwqefjnpoa
So you're telling me Apple doesn't care about it's customers, employees,
suppliers or the environment, just money? Shocking.

~~~
dang
Please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN, especially not snarky ones.
Maybe you don't owe $BIGCO better but you owe this community better if you're
posting here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
ropiwqefjnpoa
Just making the point that people can't live their values through these giant
corporations. This has been proven time and again. Maybe that was a better way
to word it.

~~~
dang
I certainly agree with you on that, but even that way of putting it—though
better—is too generic to make for a good HN discussion.

[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment)

~~~
guidance
Dude, _please_ step away from the crack pipe.

You are a Nazi. Plain and simple. I know it's not nice to hear such a thing,
but it's true. Someone should have mentioned this to you long ago. There could
have been much pain and hurt and suffering avoided, had you only known that
your actions are _destroying people 's lives_. I assume many posters are too
intimidated and are afraid of being banned, to speak truth to your power.
That's not me. I simply don't care, and will speak the truth to your face
regardless.

Here it goes:

Are you the one who shadow banned my last account?

This is my _second_ HN account. Honestly. The first one was a few months ago
(account name 'shiftless'), when in my extraordinary 36-year-old graybeard
naivete, I thought it might be a good idea to join this forum, to participate
in discussions with fellow computer enthusiasts.

There are many intelligent and wise people here, and many great discussions.
Being that I have been _living as a hermit for the better part of a decade_ ,
it would be nice to have for the first time in a long while people to talk and
discuss with, to learn from _and to teach_.

I invite you to read through the history of my comments, on this profile and
the last, and honestly tell me with a straight face that I am a worthless
person, that my comments are useless, that I need to be lectured, talked down
to, etc like you're doing to this guy, or that I deserve to be _shadow banned_
\--my comments silently consigned to oblivion with no notification--simply for
speaking my mind.

Yes, my opinions are strongly held, but they are never ignorantly so;
everything I know and believe is thoroughly researched and I can argue my
position on any subject. Rarely have I been given a chance to do so on this
forum. Actually, the posters here are quick to downvote, to flag, to run
screaming to the Nazi mods to please hurt this mean evil person who posted a
comment I didn't like. _You_ created that culture. The fish rots from the head
down.

The harm you are doing to the community with your Nazi Germany style
"moderation" is incalculable. The word "moderate" used to mean "moderation",
but there is nothing moderate about your actions. There's no telling how many
great people you've driven away from this site through this bullshit. It needs
to stop, immediately.

Are you planning to shadowban this account as well? If that's the case then I
will never, ever post here or read this site again.

------
shmerl
Apple is one of the worst offenders when it comes to lock-in in each form,
including repairs.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
As an iPhone user, I am actually happy about this. When I buy my grandparent's
an iPhone, I don't want them duped into going to a shady service shop. When I
buy a used iPhone from a regular person, I want to feel confident that the
person was duped into having a shady shop service the phone.

This is especially important as there are secure elements that are critical to
iPhone security that have to be handled correctly. I trust Apple to get it
right.

~~~
ClumsyPilot
The old chestnut goes: People that give up liberty for safety deserve neither.

Which secure elements are you concerned about, and please be specific? Is
replacing the screen putting you at risk? How about the charging chip?

This is really infuriating, but maybe we get what we deserve - you can
literally take away people's essentials rights to do with their property as
they see fit, and they will cheer for it! This, I find, is a good overview:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5cRU3_XaM0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5cRU3_XaM0)

~~~
RcouF1uZ4gsC
From a liberty point of you, aren't you taking away Apple's freedom of
association and forcing it to share it's proprietary information with
competitors?

Apple is free to have the repair policies they like, and I am free to buy or
not buy Apple with their repair policies forming one of the inputs for my
decision.

~~~
lordcorvin1
There's no need to share proprietary information to be able to repair things.
Take a PC, you can repair it easily without infringing on Intel and AMD
patents. Your argument is flawed

