
To lure young talent, banks mimic tech workspaces - glassworm
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-world-work-banks/to-lure-young-talent-banks-mimic-tech-workspaces-idUSKBN1QS0BB
======
muzani
I'm seeing this a lot. I had an interview with a giant telco and the head of
recruitment proudly tells me how Google like they are. They have bright
colors, beanbags, and nice lighting.

I ask them if devices are part of the workplace, they tell me no, you bring
your own laptop. There are lots of open desks, but the seats are uncomfortable
and I don't see a single monitor or keyboard.

We go down to the meeting rooms. They show me the coffee + barista, the
bowling alley, and the nice grass like carpets.

It seems to surprise them that when I go to work, I actually want to be
productive. I enjoy getting things done. I'm not there to go bowling, or play
video games, or watch Netflix. A productive developer is a happy developer.

~~~
sametmax
It's the typical big corporation superficial vision of a trend. Just like when
an ad tries to appeal to youngsters: it always looks ridiculous to the target.
They use what they think is cool, instead of what actually is because they
don't care about understanding anything, they just want to pretend they do.

The corporate equivalent are agile methods with plenty of tooling but no
direct communication with the client, open spaces yet still 100 layers of
hierarchy, empowerement that means more responsability and no leverage, and
the usual "we have plenty of cool looking equipment except what you actually
need to get the work done".

I don't want a dual screen and 16Gb of RAM because I feel cool with it. I do
because I'm paid $800/day and wasting time with something that can be solved
for a few hundred dollars is just bad economics.

~~~
z3t4
Spend 1000$ on a biljards table, save 100,000$ in recruitment cost, and yet
another 10 million in salary cost as you will get only new grads, just hope
some of them can actually code. Then outsource _everything_ that is
technically challenging.

~~~
izzydata
What is the point in having the college grads then?

~~~
shadofx
To find out what parts are technically challenging.

------
allengeorge
* in the most superficial way possible.

I mean, the reason why people don’t work at banks is because:

\- tech is still seen a cost center

\- processes for change are onerous

\- heavy focus on maintenance

\- teams have non-uniform quality

\- politics

\- ...

None of which can be solved by furniture placement.

~~~
gadders
The reason people do work at banks:

\- Money (highest you will get outside of FAANG or winning the startop
lottery)

\- quite an interesting industry.

~~~
isolli
I definitely agree with your first point, but from personal experience the
second one is debatable. It certainly depends on the specific activity, and
will change with time.

For instance, while quantitative research during the explosion of Black-
Scholes-based modeling and complex financial products was intellectually
interesting, after the 2008 crisis the focus moved to maintaining existing
models (mostly trying not to lose money on legacy products) and implementing
various regulations (e.g. central clearing requirements).

~~~
gadders
True, in the last ten years nearly all the big projects have been Reg
projects. These are normally never as much fun as revenue generating projects.

However, I still think banking as a whole is more interesting than a lot of
others - FMCG, manufacturing etc.

~~~
Jorge1o1
Agreed. Would much rather work in finance than at Heinz as a brand manager for
ketchup (if you’re lucky) or even in tech there’s some just insanely boring
careers: network engineer, database admin, etc.

------
lordnacho
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult)

Google lets people wear casual clothes, so we need to do that too:

[https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/06/goldman-
sac...](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/06/goldman-sachs-
relaxes-dress-code-for-more-casual-environment)

Facebook has bean bags, so we need that too. Cool co has cool toy -> we need
cool toy.

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
In order to be a devil's advocate: a classic cargo cult is when you make an
fake airplane from mud and sticks.

You cannot make a fake bean bag, or a fake dress code, can you?

~~~
colanderman
Presumably the analogy is that the dress code and bean bag are the mud and
sticks with which the banks are trying to mimic SV tech culture.

After all, the mud and the sticks were not fake, were they?

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
Good point. Very good point.

But wouldn't "fake it till you make it" have a chance here?

~~~
lordnacho
If you "make it", it's not fake. Sure they could pay people what tech firms
pay and treat them the same way, but then it wouldn't be fake.

What's fake is trying to get real results without real change.

~~~
theoh
When cargo cult thinking applies to organizational structure, it's called
mimetic isomorphism
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimetic_isomorphism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimetic_isomorphism).
There's nothing inherently fake about that, but contextual factors might make
it inappropriate, whether or not the raison d'etre of a particular org
structure is understood by the participants.

Art institutions in peripheral cities are often victims of mimetic
isomorphism. They try to emulate what institutions in major art centres are
doing, but without the supporting thick soup of intellectual and artistic
talent.

------
bourabokaddd
Wow, danske has no shame to order pieces like this, after their participation
in huge coppurtion scandal (see for example
[https://theshiftnews.com/2018/12/30/danske-bank-named-as-
occ...](https://theshiftnews.com/2018/12/30/danske-bank-named-as-
occrps-2019-corrupt-actor-of-the-year/) )

~~~
patrickk
Yup, clear case of submarine marketing (classic PG essay
[http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html))

------
RestlessMind
Just pay higher (statistically significant) take home compensation than tech
and see a lot of talent flocking to you. /cynic

Maybe 5-10 years back, when Tech was everyone's darling and Wall St reputation
was in tatters after 2008 crash, higher packages alone wouldn't have been
sufficient. But tech is sufficiently tarnished now.

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
A statistically higher salary works well for luring employees, but doesn't
help much retaining them.

As soon as that developer is used to his half a million take home, which takes
roughly three years, he'll start looking for a new pasture.

So the understanding has formed that in order to retain employees, you must
show them that the grass over there is not actually that much greener. That we
also have interesting projects (read: internal mobility), career opportunities
and the aforementioned bean bag chairs.

~~~
otabdeveloper1
> A statistically higher salary works well for luring employees, but doesn't
> help much retaining them.

This is false. A high salary fixes the loyalty problem. It won't, however, fix
the motivation or competence problems.

> As soon as that developer is used to his half a million take home, which
> takes roughly three years, he'll start looking for a new pasture.

He won't if you're paying above market rates. Especially if that salary comes
with strings attached. (Bonuses, stock, etc.)

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
High salary alone will not create loyalty: there always will be someone who
offers more.

The "strings" don't work that well either: deferred comp matching is pretty
much standard these days.

~~~
otabdeveloper1
> High salary alone will not create loyalty: there always will be someone who
> offers more.

"High salary" means "above market rate salary", i.e., you're the one who
offers more than everyone else.

Yes, it does definitely create loyalty, to pretend otherwise is stupid. There
are some things people won't do for money, but it's an awfully small list.

------
lunias
Worked at a bank for a year on a greenfield project. They had walls painted in
primary colors, an open workspace (for some employees), and typical
bullshittery like 8 hour hack-a-thons which output directly into the trash
bin. The main issue with working there: it's the Dead Sea. No one is
interested in working. They're interested in retaining control of their
domain. As a result, nothing gets done. We spent a year integrating with two
systems. The data we aggregated was never used.

------
balabaster
Here's what young talent wants, at least, this is what I want:

\- Give me a powerful enough computer that it provides me no hindrance, with a
couple of decent sized widescreen monitors so that I can see everything I'm
working on at once. The more balls I need in the air at the same time, the
more monitor space I need.

\- Allow me the latitude to pick my own tools without shoving your security
policy down my throat every 10 minutes.

\- Give me room to speak my mind freely and consider my opinion with the kind
of respect that's worthy of the paycheque you sign me every month.

\- Don't mire me down in meetings and process beyond what we need to
effectively produce dependable results.

\- Provide some occasional time that we can gel as a team.

\- Show me where I can get food and tea for a reasonable price. Free tea and
milk and a kettle that actually boils water if you really want to impress me.

\- Allow me the facility to work from home without complaint if needs dictate.

\- Trust me to do the job you pay me a small fortune to do. Treat me with the
kind of trust you'd expect to be treated with if you were in my seat.

\- Judge me based on my results, don't micromanage me. You're not my Mother,
I'm not an infant. You hired me because you believed I can do the job. I can.
Get out of my way and let me.

\- Recognize everyone's contributions to the team. I don't need awards, but I
do want the occasional "Hey, you really showed up for us this week, it was a
critical week for our success and we couldn't have got through it without the
contribution you made. You really made a difference and helped pull us through
it. Thank you."

Realistically, most of my list is about being provided with decent tools,
treated with respect and being allowed to do my job without hindrance...and
tea.

I don't need gimmicks and bowling alleys, table tennis, sleep pods, etc. I'm
happy when I feel like I'm providing a meaningful contribution. I've paid my
dues many times over and I continue to pay them every day, but I'm not here to
impress you or claw for recognition. I'm here because I can make a real
difference. So let me.

Edit: Although, if there were a free gym with decent equipment and showers
onsite, I wouldn't knock that. Perhaps spend some of the money from all your
other gimmicks to pay for a handful of personal trainers we don't have to pay
for and allow us enough time during the day to work out - i.e. lunch break or
whatever.

~~~
ravenstine
It is pretty funny when you work for a company that pays you enough to put you
in the top 10% of earners, yet still treats you the same as the boss you had
working for McDonalds.

All your points are basically counterpoints to a _low trust_ environment. Such
places usually aren't fixable, and anyone stuck in one should start looking
for other opportunities ASAP, even if they've only had the job for less than a
year.

~~~
balabaster
This is so on point, I think every manager needs to read this sentence over
and over and over again until they really understand how detrimental this one
behaviour is to the wellbeing of their team.

If you didn't trust me to do the job you hired me for, why am I here and why
do you pay me so much? Why not hire an intern for almost nothing and
micromanage them instead because you'd be in the same position and you could
give yourself a nice fat bonus with the budget you're saving.

------
newnewpdro
Infantalizing the workforce has proven to be very effective at pacifying and
enabling them to not take their work seriously enough to consider the
potential negative consequences for society, the world, and future
generations.

~~~
faissaloo
I'd like to point out the growing trend of infantalising society in general.

------
Nursie
Banks pretty much _are_ software companies these days. Software isn't a cost
centre, it's where the super-secret algorithms do their thing at high speed to
get them a market advantage. It's where the ATM network needs to be built,
managed and maintained, it's where your app gets built to differentiate you
from your competition, where your large-scale account databases need to thrive
and grow, where your always-on trading platform brings in business etc etc

In the UK at least, it seems like it's not so much about mimicking tech
workspaces as it is dropping the old requirements to wear a suit and be in at
8.30am sharp. My last contract for a bank was quite relaxed, we did some
interesting stuff around cloud infrastructure management using (and building)
in-house tools, built things with microservices etc etc. It was quite fun and
the team were good people.

------
jimmy1
The banks need to emphasis what I believe they have that is truly superior to
startup or smaller tech firms: an established business, stable, predictable
hours, reliable pay, excellent benefits, and the security that your job won't
be ripped from underneath you.

~~~
Areading314
None of these apply to banking jobs, other than the established business one.
At least in the US.

~~~
mcv
Maybe the problem isn't so much with banks, but with American companies, and
the lack of reasonable regulation there.

~~~
snazz
There are still good ones, you just have to hunt quite a bit more. The current
administration certainly won’t be adding any new regulation, although it would
be nice if it somehow happened.

------
beepboopbeep
Yes, they'll blow lots of money on renovations while ignoring work-from-home
demands of employees. Meanwhile, the folks in charge of dredging their
internal systems up from the 90's are working on skeleton crews. It's just
mindless corporate trend following.

------
_bxg1
“Seventy-seven percent of millennials say that the workspace is more important
than salary,”

I'm sorry _what now_? I mean chill out on the dress code and maybe have some
snacks, but. Jesus. Work doesn't need to be Disneyland.

~~~
titanomachy
The quote is from an executive in Denmark, where wages are on a much narrower
distribution compared to America and many services are socialized.

If it's the difference between $90k at a hip tech company or $93k at a stuffy
bank, people may choose the tech company. If it's $250k at Amazon or $120k at
a startup, they'll probably choose Amazon. But those kind of spreads are less
common in Europe.

~~~
digitalixus
> But those kind of spreads are less common in Europe.

Having lived and worked in Europe (Germany) for a few years now, I can confirm
that this is the biggest lie/propaganda ever. It's particularly bad in the
city I live in, where "bErLiN iS a PoOr N cHeAp CiTy So ThE sAlArIeS aReN't
HiGh" is a meme disguised as a fact and spread around, especially to non-
German newcomers. The massive salary spread is alive and well in Europe, but
the people who benefit from it aren't talking about it enough (or at all, due
to culture).

"Salaries are low in Europe" or "more fair across jobs" fooled even me when I
first arrived, but now I see it for what it is - a salary suppression
technique, a very effective one too since it's, by now, basically self-
propagating. That "30k average wage before taxes" (that's the German figure,
not sure about Denmark but they're all just as low and rigged) actually
includes freelancers, part-timers and (I'm sure) even the under/unemployed!
But you'll only know that after researching for the fine-print, a lot of times
people parrot the "30k average" as a benchmark for full-time employment.

Some true salary figures from people I know in Berlin (I've seen matching
payslips, so they're 100% not lying) include 65k for a frontend web dev with 2
years experience, 55k for marketing with 3 years experience, 60k for a junior
non-technical PO. Mid-career devs (8-10 years experience) pull in 90k easy,
while management/directors in startups get paid 120-200k. Currency is EUR btw,
not $.

Yes all these figures, in Berlin, where they tell foreigners on Internet
forums "45-60k is a LOT for a dev with 5-10 years experience, because cost of
living in Berlin is low (it's not) so come on over and relocate!"

This is not helped by Europeans (particularly Germans and Scandinavians) being
very reluctant to talk about salary, they are much more tight-lipped than
Americans. So all you're gonna hear is mostly how Karen who moved to Berlin
from America for her German boyfriend is making 28k at Zalando with her 3
years of experience. That's really the result of very effective wage-
suppression propaganda - not a true reflection of market rates and nowhere
near what informed people are getting paid.

~~~
vegardx
In Norway all income data is publicly available.

We must have very different experience. I've found that people from the US are
very reluctant to talk about how much they make; unless they're in the top
brackets.

I would also argue that 60k+ is good for a junior position. We might disagree.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
> people from the US are very reluctant to talk about how much they make;
> unless they're in the top brackets

Yep!

~~~
mcv
Would this be related to the claim that Americans are never poor, just
temporarily embarrassed millionaires? Only people at the top would have
nothing to be embarrassed about, while everybody else would love to tell you
how much they make once their ship has come in.

------
plaidfuji
Right, because the thing keeping people from working at banks is the lack of
an open floor plan and foosball table, not the fact that they’re, how do I put
this, banks.

------
notTyler
I'm currently finishing up a contract at a large chemical company doing the
same thing. They have a fancy new office in downtown Chicago that clearly a
lot of money went into. They emphasize scrum, being fast moving, and a geeky,
innovative culture that supports cutting edge tech.

I say finishing up because for the amount of money they're pouring into the
center they aren't seeing what they want, so they downsized the contract I'm
on and are severely limiting the funding going to this center. To the point
where 2 weeks ago a breakfast and learn had to be cancelled because they
couldn't get approval to buy 2 dozen bagels or something similar.

So I would take this with a grain of salt. I imagine most of the bigger
companies taking this route will either roll back their spend on this or have
the workers pay the piper within a year or three.

Granted, they aren't really scrum or (that) fast moving and there's tons of
red tape for obvious security reasons, but it does lend well to work life
balance. I might look into a similar role when I start looking again.

------
hnuser355
Interview with a financial firm and with high probability you will hear “We’re
not a financial company, we’re a tech company that does finance”

~~~
chosenbreed37
> Interview with a financial firm and with high probability you will hear
> “We’re not a financial company, we’re a tech company that does finance”

Well...yes if you're interviewing with Silicon Valley Bank or Monzo. I'd be
surprised if this is how Citi or Credit Suisse see themselves :-)

~~~
fjp
When I was interning at Allstate 5 years ago, they were saying this BS.
Meanwhile it took 5 weeks of my 12 week internship to get all the system and
software access I needed to get my dev environment set up.

------
brailsafe
Shocker, people care about the place where they're expected to spend the
majority of almost every day doing mundane work for an awful bureaucratic
behemoth. If that's the work you do, for whatever reason, I hope to god you're
doing it somewhere that will at least make a shallow attempt to court you. I
also hope the work is interesting. If neither of those are true then that
ain't a good situation to be in.

------
toomanybeersies
On the specific note of ping pong tables: I hate them with a passion.

I hate ping pong, I have no desire to play it, but people get upset when I
don't want to play it with them. I'm happy to sit round, drink a couple of
beers, and talk shit on my Friday afternoon, but I just _really_ don't want to
play ping pong.

~~~
muzani
I'm surprised ping pong tables are a thing in startups. I feel something like
a board game or cards would go along better, but someone decided that ping
pong was the startup thing

~~~
jeena
I voted for ping pong in addition to FiFa on the xbox at the office because I
think it's nice to have a break where you move around a bit instead of just
concentrated moving your thumbs and index fingers.

------
person_of_color
Anyone know the salary for a Senior SWE at Goldman Sachs SF office?

~~~
PhoenixReborn
I've never heard of GS having a significant software presence in SF. Their
technology teams are mostly in NYC/Jersey City. The closest bank I could think
of with a decent SF presence is Capital One and their senior SWE positions
seem to range from 110-175k a year according to Glassdoor. That'd be roughly
in line with many startups, though ofc not competitive with unicorns/FAANG.

~~~
taurath
Glassdoor salaries are not anywhere near where people are actually compensated
- 50% of income in a lot of places is in bonuses and at places I’ve worked
Glassdoor has always been extremely low.

~~~
PhoenixReborn
Yup, totally valid points. Unfortunately I don't have any better sources of
data so Glassdoor's the best I could come up with.

~~~
state_less
Is this a valid use case for the blockchain? A shared ledger of salary info
folks post to that isn’t easy to munge.

------
jbob2000
I left the start up world to join a bank. Best decision I ever made. I feel
respected and valued here and I have full control over my time. I also like
that my work is seen by millions of people, we get about 30,000 unique hits a
day on my site. The startups I was at were lucky to break 1,000.

------
xacaxulu
How about no workspace at all. Can we all drop the collective illusion about
cramming into an office together to "brainstorm" or whatever?

~~~
finaliteration
Does it have to be all or nothing? I enjoy working remotely but not all the
time. I still need some social interaction and like collaborating in person
depending on what’s going on.

The best option is to provide flexibility as needed and build up
infrastructure around that.

~~~
kypro
I worked full remote for about 4 years, and I've found it's less efficient and
rewarding as part-remote, flexi working. It's nice to avoid rush hour and work
from home a day or two a week, but it can also be really useful to discuss
more complicated things in person. Often fully remote workers can find
themselves becoming seconded-class employees because they get left out of many
of the casual office conversations regarding the direction of projects, etc.

~~~
finaliteration
> Often fully remote workers can find themselves becoming seconded-class
> employees because they get left out of many of the casual office
> conversations

I worked entirely remotely for about a year and I hated it. Maybe it’s not a
skill I have, but I definitely felt isolated and like something was lost.

I’ve also read somewhere (sorry don’t remember the specific source) that
people who work entirely remotely when others are in an office tend to lose
out on things like promotions and end up making less.

