

The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco - Mystalic
http://benparr.com/2013/08/tech-community-san-francisco/

======
SurfScore
I've lived all over the country, and I've never seen such a big divide between
two groups (wealthy tech and everyone else) as I have in the Bay Area.

The last time I was there, I realized why most of the protests for economic
reform and "the 1%" are so strong in the Bay Area: because it is so blatantly
thrown in people's faces! The streets are filled with Porsches and Teslas
driving by the many homeless people in SF everyday. Rent is absolutely absurd.
Most big cities have this problem, but its especially pronounced in SF
(probably moreso than everywhere but NYC).

I think the thing that probably makes it worse in SF is, as mentioned in the
article, many people don't _work_ in SF. I don't know of many companies in
Chicago, NYC, or Dallas providing free transportation to their headquarters in
the suburbs, people that live in those places usually work in there too.

I'm not sure what can be done about this; Google isn't moving their
headquarters to SF (nor should they). At some point this issue is going to
boil over and something will have to change.

~~~
vinceguidry
> The streets are filled with Porsches and Teslas driving by the many homeless
> people in SF everyday.

One might argue that the homeless people wouldn't be there if the fabulous
wealth weren't also there. That they can even be there should be a testament
to the city's tolerance. In many places, local government does everything they
can to remove them. SF has much more social conscience than a lot of people
give it credit for.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Actually, having talked with a number of homeless folks and done outreach with
our Church, a significant portion stay for the weather. Seriously, it just
doesn't get too hot or too cold when you're living outside here so you're
pretty much ok even if you have to just sleep in your clothes one night. I
talked to a guy who had walked here from Utah spending time across the
northern Nevada and some in Central California.

That said, many of the homeless we dealt with were also dealing with
challenges in mental illness, whether it was depression, schizophrenia, or
addiction. That was much more instrumental in keeping them homeless than any
sort of structured neglect.

If the tech giants endowed a single mental health facility that would serve
the homeless population of San Francisco and one in the South Bay it would do
more good for more people than any other single act. Suggestions on how we
could pull that off are welcome.

~~~
seiji
_Suggestions on how we could pull that off are welcome._

That's the problem, isn't it? Is such a thing even accomplishable?

We're teetering on an edge. We don't know if we are creating a future of clean
and shiny and modern technology for everybody or if we're creating a dirty and
scarred and run down begging-for-please-schedule-me-doctor services for non-
millionares in society. More technological improvements are needed before we
can uplift everybody into Comfort and Prosperity, but in the meantime, do we
just let those who aren't us suffer?

There are probably half a dozen significant projects with 100x to 1000x
personal, life-impacting ROI we could undertake as a society, but there's
nobody strong enough to advance our agendas.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Yes it is (the problem).

In one future the world is ruled by corporations, public services such as
internet, medical care, and transportation are provided by them as long as you
follow their rules.

In one future the governments seize corporate earnings through taxation to
fund basic services resulting in a incestuous and tense symbiotic relationship
between companies and governments.

Depending on which side of the bed I wake up on I think one is more likely
than the other.

~~~
pekk
Corporations are already paying taxes pretty much the world over, for a very
long time now. Why characterize this normal, standard, nearly universal policy
as "incestuous and tense"? Why is this "seizing" and not just normal tax
paying?

~~~
ChuckMcM
Heh, you missed the drama of the whole "fair share" taxes debate that Google,
Apple, and others are embroiled in both in the UK and the US? How about the
Amazon sales tax debate?

Corporations do pay taxes, governments around the world are girding themselves
to demand they pay even more taxes. That was the 'tenseness' of which I spoke.

------
joejohnson
From the quoted LA Times piece: "Unlike in previous booms, the tech industry
isn’t creating as many middle-class jobs..."

I don't believe this. There are tons of Software Engineer jobs paying around
80-100k in SF. That salary, in that city, puts you firmly in the middle class.

However, I agree with this piece. The tech companies and the people of San
Francisco as a whole need to really change things. A big part of that change
probably needs to happen at the local government level where there is so much
incompetence and a decent amount of corruption:
[http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-12-16/news/the-worst-run-big-
ci...](http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-12-16/news/the-worst-run-big-city-in-the-
u-s/)

SF wants to be a big city, but many of the residents are actively refusing
policies that will allow for better services, denser urban areas and other
benefits of being a large city. Otherwise, San Francisco will continue to be
the largest small town in America, with problems like homelessness and income
inequality worse than a city ten times it's size (say, New York City).

~~~
antr
You make a great point, but would you agree with the following?:

 _There are tons of Finance jobs paying around 80-100k in NY. That salary, in
that city, puts you firmly in the middle class._

Is this now (perceived as) middle class?

~~~
jcnnghm
I'd agree with that, with the qualification that $80-100k may actually be a
bit low. In the United States overall, the upper quintile of income starts at
about $102k [1], so an income between $80 and $100k would place you in the
upper-middle class.

However, it's important to keep in mind that the cost of living in San
Francisco or New York is much higher than average. Median rent for a one-
bedroom apartment is $2,795 [2] in San Francisco, that alone is over $33k a
year. The SF cost of living index is 161.3 and the Manhattan cost of living
index is 223.9. In other words, $100k in Manhattan is equivalent to about $45k
in an average place in the US, firmly in the middle quintile. The Living Wage
Project suggests it takes at least $100k to be effectively middle class in New
York [3].

It's really not a perception thing, it's reality.

1: US Census 2011 Household Income Table HINC-05

2: [http://priceonomics.com/the-san-francisco-rent-
explosion/](http://priceonomics.com/the-san-francisco-rent-explosion/)

3: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/cities-high-cost-
of...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/cities-high-cost-of-
living_n_1236841.html#s644530&title=4_San_Francisco)

~~~
rgbrenner
The numbers from the census are household income. The average household has
nearly 2 workers.

------
stfsbrb
Articles like this one always seem to imply that the techies are all sitting
comfortably with a giant money vault like Scrooge McDuck, laughing at everyone
else and refusing to share. That just isn't the case. In reality, few of them
actually have any real financial security. Most work for startups that are
living on borrowed time and may not be here in a year or two. Few of them own
any real assets such as real estate, so they end up renting just like everyone
else. How many who ride these buses even own cars?

They all know in the back of their minds that the current boom is just as
transient as any other, meaning they could be unemployed and forced to leave
at any time. It is difficult to build a strong community on such shaky ground.

~~~
jseliger
_Articles like this one always seem to imply that the techies are all sitting
comfortably with a giant money vault like Scrooge McDuck, laughing at everyone
else and refusing to share._

Articles like this one also ignore the simple, obvious solution: remove height
restrictions and mandatory parking minimums. Developers will build up, supply
will increase, and housing costs will fall.

The problem is that many of the same people complaining about high prices
don't seem to like the only real means of alleviating the issue; I wrote more
about this here: [https://jseliger.wordpress.com/2013/04/08/connecting-the-
dot...](https://jseliger.wordpress.com/2013/04/08/connecting-the-dots-between-
beliefs-an-example-from-density-and-housing-policy/) .

~~~
cenhyperion
See the same problem in Austin, Texas. People that have lived here forever
(justifiably) aren't thrilled with the fact that rent has gone way up as a
result of the city's boom. But the very same people actively oppose the
construction of new housing.

I really don't think people understand that if the demand increases, the way
to keep the cost form increasing as much is to increase the supply.

------
rayiner
Here's my proble. I have no problem paying taxes and investing in my
community. But I'd never want to invest in a city as absurd as San Francisco.

It is interesting to observe how people in the finance industry in New York
view taxation. They'll complain about it, but by and large they're pretty
supportive of the whole system. Which is important, because they're
responsible for some large fraction of the tax base, as well as a lot of
corporate investment in the community. I think Wall Street is happy to invest
in New York because the city isn't totally dysfunctional. The people who pay
the taxes see benefits from public services, whether its the police or the
transit infrastructure. It's a place where people making a million dollars a
year will ride the bus or subway to work and so feel invested in the public
services they pay for.

In San Francisco, the crazies and the hippies are firmly in charge. And as
long as that's the case, why would you want to give them your money?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The techies like SF's culture more than NYC's. Maybe they actually like a city
run eclectically vs. the stod and boring north east style.

I've never noticed anything very disfunctional about SF: the police seem to
work out, the public transportation seems to work out, there is a homeless
problem but not an entirely huge one, tourists seem to be safe, the city has
great parks.

Maybe you just don't like Californian liberals?

~~~
LordHumungous
[http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-12-16/news/the-worst-run-big-
ci...](http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-12-16/news/the-worst-run-big-city-in-the-
u-s/)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Nothing in that article harks at serious disfunctions that would cause me to
avoid living there.

I would rather live in San Francisco than anywhere in Idaho (despite Idaho
being a nice place to visit). Or any city in the south for that matter.

~~~
rayiner
The article isn't about wanting to live there or not. That's largely a
function of things that have little to do with the city government (climate,
night life, etc). The article urges tech companies to invest in San Francisco,
and the issues raised in the article are totally relevant to evaluating why
they might not want to. Who wants to pour money into a city that is so badly
mismanaged?

------
protomyth
I am a little confused, not living in SF (visited once by accident in the
80's). If I read this right, most of the tech companies are not in SF, but the
employees really like to live in SF. So, the tech companies bus their people
on exclusive transportation to the tech company.

Is part of the problem that the suburbs (that I would imagine benefit tax-
wise) are not doing a good job at being an attractive place to live? Is it an
industrial park situation? It seems like some land developer has a custom
audience for a development.

I have read jwz's blog for the DNA Lounge for a long time and get the vibe SF
doesn't want those type of venues. It would seem a more entertainment friendly
community would prosper in attracting young SF residents.

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
Its because lots of young people don't want to live in Silicon Valley proper
(basically Santa Clara County to the south). Santa Clara County is heavily
suburban, with some very poor areas mixed in with some very affluent areas
(Los Gatos, Palo Alto, Los Altos Hills). I find it hard to believe that rent
is higher in SF than Sunnyvale, for example-young people just want to have
their cake and eat it too-high paying tech jobs AND living in SF.

~~~
toyg
And why wouldn't they? Why should they be shackled to SV, considering the
tenuous logistical and geographical requirements of their jobs?

I agree with parent, SV is missing a trick here: it doesn't need to be as
soulless as it is.

------
pnathan
My perspective is that the tech community at large - quite some time ago -
abdicated integrating into the rest of the world. I invite a careful read of
Barlow's bombast[1] from the early '90s and consider how that has played out
into today.

With the techie desire to remove politics and marketing and the overweening
wish to be logical instead of emotional comes the abdication of dealing with
the messy, compromising, and non-technical parts of the world and thus, the
disengagement.

My one experience in SF was generally negative: homeless people were sleeping
all over the sidewalks, and the beggars were aggressive. There was a great
deal of wealth in evidence, but I didn't see the wealth translated into
meaningful assistance.

I guess I would expect to see some sort of mission building in the area I was
in where people could sleep & use restrooms and not be on the sidewalk.

Anyway, I think it's time the tech community grokked that the Internet is and
is not a separate space and really got serious about engaging with the world
(again).

[1] [https://homes.eff.org/~barlow/Declaration-
Final.html](https://homes.eff.org/~barlow/Declaration-Final.html)

~~~
simoncion
You say that the beggars were aggressive. Does this mean that they asked
everyone for change, and even asked you whenever they saw you, or does it mean
that they would touch you and/or get in your face and speak violently to you?

If the latter, I'm terribly sorry for your bad experience. I've been living
here for nearly three years now and hope that you find some comfort in the
knowledge that your experience was a radical outlier. Every hobo, pusher, and
prostitute that I've run into gracefully accepts "No, I'm sorry/thank you."
for an answer. If the former, I suspect that "persistent but non-violent
and/or polite" is a much clearer label for these sorts of folks. When you
describe someone as "aggressive", it also carries connotations of "violent".

Also, the city's nested web of ineffectual homeless outreach/support programs
is an entirely separate issue. (As is the city's "Make $60->$80k per year? Get
a condo for 1/6th to 1/8th market price!" program. [This is their "low income
housing ownership" program, BTW, which is entirely separate from their low-
income housing rental program. (The rental program actually serves a pretty
appropriate segment of the population.)])

EDIT: It's widely reported that free-of-cost meals are available to anyone who
wants them in SF. I've seen documentation that indicates that -as long as one
can get moving by 0700- one can roam the city and never be without three
squares a day. I know that I live within four blocks of two active food banks
that serve the homeless, and within eight of a very large church-run
organization that does the same. See also, this guy's comment:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5297419](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5297419)

I've never seen anyone actually starving in the city, and I've walked through
almost all parts of it, at all hours of the day and night. Folks get clothed
and folks get fed. Folks often _don 't_ get psych medications or
hospitalization that they need, but that's a whole other story. :/

~~~
pnathan
They were... I guess the word is rude? Hustling with an edge? A sort of
enterpenurial, even. This is not common in my experience with beggars. No
violence, mind you. Just real pushy to close their deal.

I'm glad to hear that the meals organizations are effective. There were so
many homeless. :-/

~~~
simoncion
Honestly, there are so many homeless in the city in part because of the
"effectiveness" of the various homeless outreach programs. (Don't get me
wrong. I'm _very_ glad that there are _very_ few people in the city that go
unfed or unclothed.)

------
jchrisa
Part of the reason I moved away from the Bay Area is that no one seems to care
about it. Everyone is too busy working all the time for their start up, and so
there's very little in the way of community. Oakland seems to be the one
exception, where it is cheap enough that you can live without dedicating your
life to work. Surprise surprise, it turns out to be the place with the
interesting restaurant and arts culture.

~~~
pnathan
What about stories like [1]? Is that restricted to the "bad parts of town"?
The impression I've always gotten is Oakland _was_ the bad part of town.

(This is an honest question - not trying to be sarcastic. I havn't lived in
the Bay area.)

[1] [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57599011/violence-
in-o...](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57599011/violence-in-oakland-
forces-residents-to-seek-private-security/)

------
Aloisius
If I knew of a well run non-profit organization that would strategically and
practically invest in San Francisco, I would donate.

I can't really think of any that aren't highly political (and thus, not
practical). Anyone know of any?

~~~
pamelafox
My local donations of choice - not sure which you'd consider political:

* SF Bicycle Coalition: Definitely recommend if you're a fellow biker [https://co.clickandpledge.com/advanced/default.aspx?wid=6334...](https://co.clickandpledge.com/advanced/default.aspx?wid=63340&r=https://www.sfbike.org/?gift_thanks)

* Planned Parenthood: They are very happy to receive donations to keep providing medical services. To donate to local chapter, select "Shasta Pacific" here: [https://secure.ppaction.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=pp_ppo...](https://secure.ppaction.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=pp_ppol_Directed_DonationFormOneTimeGift)

* Village Harvest: they harvest community orchards and gardens (which you can also volunteer at on weekends). [http://www.villageharvest.org/donate](http://www.villageharvest.org/donate)

------
gms
Isn't this what taxes are for?

~~~
jcnnghm
The cities problem isn't revenue, there are plenty of much better managed
places that are nicer than San Francisco, without the massive tax base that
the city enjoys. The people should be embarrassed at the state of the city.
There are pretty clearly major systematic issues.

The city is trying to address a bunch of societal issues, while failing at the
basics. There is a reason it's considered the worst run big city in the US
[1]. Why should people that are already paying very high taxes pay even more,
or address other peoples problems directly? I don't really see how this
problem somehow belongs to the tech industry.

1: [http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-12-16/news/the-worst-run-big-
ci...](http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-12-16/news/the-worst-run-big-city-in-the-
u-s/)

~~~
gms
Yes, that was my point.

------
newnewnew
San Francisco needs an income tax. So many people enjoy the benefits of living
in SF but pay little for its upkeep.

~~~
bluekeybox
I moved to SF from Boston. The taxes in California are sky-high compared to
most other states. Yet the environment (other than the weather, that is) is
significantly worse. One has to wonder where all the public money is going.

~~~
simoncion
A while back, I moved from Huntsville, AL to SF. HSV city sales tax + state
sales tax brought the tax on everyday things to 8%. The SF + state sales tax
is 9%. For that additional 1%, I get _so_ _much_ more than I got in the
Southeast.

CA state income tax rates _are_ up to 7.3% higher than AL's, _BUT_ AL's
maximum tax bracket is 5% of any taxable income over $3k. CA's maximum tax
bracket is 12.3% of any income over $500k. If you're making $38k (or maybe
$48k) or less, you're better off, tax-wise to be in CA. The 6% CA bracket
starts at $27,897. [0][1]

[0]
[http://revenue.alabama.gov/incometax/itfaq01.cfm](http://revenue.alabama.gov/incometax/itfaq01.cfm)
(Search for "income tax rates")

[1]
[https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2012_california_tax_rates_and_e...](https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2012_california_tax_rates_and_exemptions.shtml)
(Search for "tax rate schedules")

------
gailees
...but it's all about the South Bay!

