
Why Garmin watches have become common in some segments of tactical aviation - smacktoward
https://theaviationist.com/2019/10/23/update-heres-why-we-saw-so-many-garmin-smart-watches-at-mcas-miramar/
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salmonellaeater
Consumer GPS devices have a speed and altitude limit [1], which I initially
thought should preclude using it in a fighter jet, but I was wrong (only
something extreme like an SR-71 would hit this limit):

> ...a limit placed on GPS tracking devices that disables tracking when the
> device calculates that it is moving faster than 1,000 knots (1,900 km/h;
> 1,200 mph) at an altitude higher than 18,000 m (59,000 ft).[3] This was
> intended to prevent the use of GPS in intercontinental ballistic missile-
> like applications.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinating_Committee_for_Mul...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinating_Committee_for_Multilateral_Export_Controls#Legacy)

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LeoPanthera
That makes sense - the limits are designed to stop you guiding a missile with
one, not guiding a jet plane.

~~~
GhettoMaestro
It also is kinda misguided.

If you have the capability to acquire/build a ballistic missile of that class,
you most likely can (will) build your own GPS/GNSS receiver. Hell you can take
a software defined radio and make your own software-based GPS receiver that
does NOT disable itself at those described thresholds (some folks have done
this for extremely high-altitude balloon experiments).

Selling it of course is another question.

~~~
jjeaff
Or even reverse engineer the firmware to remove the restriction. I'm also
guessing that there are plenty of Chinese made gps devices that don't have
that limitation. Simply because, why bother. Assuming you can find one
accurate enough on AliExpress, I'd say there is a good chance it has no
special restrictions.

~~~
conjectures
This is also what I would expect the reality of the situation to be,
regardless of policy.

~~~
coldtea
Not to mention that one would assume if someone can make a GPS-guided missile,
they can sure as hell alter/find a workable GPS for their purpose...

It's not Joe Average will try to make a missile with a GPS from his Garmin
watch...

~~~
angry_octet
But any number of non State actors would. The IRA or ISIS or Hezzbollah for
example. They probably don't have the tech capabilities to RE their own GPS
firmware, but non-orbiting rocket science isn't that hard. Iron Dome does okay
against simple rockets, but a big guided rocket (V2 size) would be a different
problem entirely.

Obviously drone attacks make use of GPS, and it's a worry to many -- for
example, there is frequently GPS jamming when Putin is visiting somewhere.

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billziss
I am no fighter pilot, but I (used to) fly airplanes, floatplanes and
helicopters. A watch with a 12 day battery life makes little sense to me as I
find it too easy to forget to charge it. Even if you put it on a checklist, it
may be too late to charge it when you are about to go.

For my flights I mostly use an automatic Glycine 24hr watch with a second dial
set on UTC for "Zulu" time. If the watch is running at the beginning of the
flight (confirmed with a checklist) it will continue running during the
flight.

I have to admit that this Garmin MARQ looks lovely though :)

~~~
AdrianB1
I fly sport planes and the battery in the iPad I use to augment the cockpit
has a 5 hour life. I definitely have the "charged iPad" on the checklist, I
don't make assumptions and I make sure to charge it before flight. I use it
for GPS altitude only as I have 2 baro altimeters and an old Garmin GPS, but
the iPad's GPS is usually more precise to indicate current height above
ground. A 12 day battery life for a smartwatch I would only wear when flying
is more than enough. I would not wear the smart watch on the ground, my
regular watch is running without any maintenance for 21 years (Citizen
EcoDrive).

~~~
onion2k
Probably a silly question, but why can't you charge the iPad in flight? Surely
planes have some sort of socket like cars?

~~~
CydeWeys
Curious why you think planes surely have outlets in them?

We're not talking about jetliners here. We could easily be talking about
planes that are suitable for clear conditions only.

~~~
SomeHacker44
My light plane has six 2.1A USB ports for charging use plus several others
dedicated to avionics updates that can also charge. In addition I have three
24V cigarette lighter "outlets" which have two dual port USB adapters. So...
Plenty of on board charging foe the six seats. Not hard to retrofit. I only
wish I had more!

~~~
CydeWeys
What's the plane and did it come with these or did you or someone else add
them?

~~~
coldtea
It's trivial to have such things for your plane (talking about small planes
with propellers etc used for hobby flying, commercial aviation of course would
have specific requirements) -- it's getting them to pass the relevant
regulations that's the deal. Eg.

[https://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ps/ipad_usb.html](https://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ps/ipad_usb.html)

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Ididntdothis
Glad they are using stock watches. Usually when something goes through the
usual procurement channels you will get a watch that took ten years to develop
and costs 100k each.

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durnygbur
Still, the most badass Garmin ad is the photo of GPSMAP mounted in the cockpit
of the Russian SU-24, while it flies close to the NATO's airspace without
transponder switched on.

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sv123
Where can I see that picture?

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stordoff
Possibly these two:
[https://twitter.com/garmin/status/669341873895563264](https://twitter.com/garmin/status/669341873895563264)

~~~
closeparen
Wow! This reminds me a lot of that old "Americans spent millions of dollars
developing a pen that could write in space, and the Russians used a pencil"
story.

~~~
mtmail
NASA or tax payers didn’t spend the money, Fisher did and the pens cost around
$3 USD [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-write-
stuff/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-write-stuff/)

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ecolonsmak
When the Strava heatmap issue came to light i recall seeing many tracks on
military runways and wondered, "who's out there doing laps on the tarmac? So
this makes sense now.

~~~
briandear
No. People in deployed areas often run on runways. The Garnin watches aren’t
transmitting and they aren’t connected to Strava.

~~~
nradov
At least half of Garmin watches are connected to Strava. They do transmit
through Bluetooth, ANT+, and/or WiFi.

~~~
jniedrauer
It's not a direct connection. You must log into your Garmin Connect account
and configure it to push to Strava.

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heelix
In general, you can bring a watch but not a phone in some areas. An aviation
friendly watch does a nice job of being visible (bonus visible in the dark) as
a watch. Bonus as a timer. Extra bonus if it can give you zulu time with
current time, as that is asked frequently.

~~~
pdelbarba
If it's going into a secure facility it doesn't matter if it's a phone, an
iwatch or a garmin, if it has a radio and/or nonvolatile memory, it's not
going in.

~~~
billziss
Interesting. So would a mechanical watch be ok, but an electronic one not ok?

~~~
branchan
An electronic watch is ok. Just not with cellular, wireless or bluetooth, USB
capabilities.

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taneq
How would you tell? Assuming someone's being sneaky, that is.

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MrMorden
WIDS or some other spectrum monitoring; or random physical checks. But mostly
policy controls and background checks.

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ekelsen
Why didn't the pilots just descend when they encountered a failure with the
environmental system?

~~~
jessaustin
The canopy was thickly coated with ice. When you're blind you can't VFR. They
couldn't use ice-obstructed instruments either, so a rapid descent would have
endangered their plane and other aircraft. They did the right thing, suffering
frostbite and cooperating with ground control to preserve life and property.

~~~
ekelsen
I wasn't questioning whether they did the right thing. I wanted to understand
why the obvious solution of descending (which is what commercial airliners
have done successfully on numerous occasions when losing cabin pressurization)
didn't work in this case.

~~~
rconti
Given Washington's geography, the freezing level on the west side of the
mountains would have been far higher than on the east side. They might not
have been able to descend below freezing until they crossed over the
mountains.

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nyolfen
[http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html)

~~~
ImaCake
Absolutely, but as a frequent visitor on this site, this is my first time
becoming aware of Garmin's being used this way. I think it's broadly relevant
even if it is PR.

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rawoke083600
Way back in the day, I was curious if my TomTom (like generation 1 or 2) would
work on a normal flight. Then one day when travel from Durban To Johannesburg
(South Africa) I took it out of my bag and switched it on and was amazed to
see we were travelling over 700km/h

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tantalor
Isn't this a huge OpSec failure? To bring third-party gps tracking devices on
your fighter jets?

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throwanem
They're receivers, not transmitters.

~~~
tantalor
Let's check that: [https://buy.garmin.com/en-
US/US/p/608613#specs](https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/608613#specs)

Ok, says they have Bluetooth and WiFi. I'm not sure I would trust the firmware
not to be vulnerable to 0-day data exfiltration once the device is back in
base.

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js2
Submitted at the time:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16530839](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16530839)

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bobloblaw45
Interesting call sign that pilot has in the picture.

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exabrial
Love my Garmin. I charge it... every Monday, or so.

~~~
brianwawok
Yup! If I’m going to do a 15 mile run on Saturday or something crazy I will
top it off before, but’s it’s pretty good at battery life. Too reason I don’t
have an Apple Watch.

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madengr
How well do these LCDs operate in the cold?

~~~
nradov
Most Garmin watches use transflective displays (different from LCD) and are
generally rated to operate down to -20ºC.

~~~
drdrey
They're also being heated by the person wearing them

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goatinaboat
Only barely; you would strap them around the outside of your flight suit on an
extra long strap.

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hestefisk
Good ad for Garmin. I prefer Suunto - greeter precision and less bells and
whistles.

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frankbreetz
Suunto is Finnish, the military likes to use US companies.

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Ididntdothis
Garmin is Swiss now.

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jumbopapa
Yes, but the HQ is US based.

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teddyh
> _The fog inside the aircraft iced over the instrument panel, forcing the
> pilot and electronic warfare officer to use a Garmin watch to keep track of
> their heading and altitude_ […]

The obvious question is: Why does the instrument panel have this failure mode,
and is issuing Garmin watches really the best fix?

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ac29
The real failure here was the "catastrophic failure of [the aircraft's]
environmental control system". It nearly killed both of the crew.

