
Make science PhDs more than just a training path for academia - Anon84
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02586-5
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syntaxing
I really like referencing the illustrative guide to a PhD when I think of a
PhD [1]. The whole point of a PhD is to create that dent in the picture. I
feel like the training path for academia is just an effect from pushing the
boundary since you need to adhere to the scientific method. It's the same
argument that some people make about engineer degree in college. I did not
expect my university to teach me all practical skills (like how to weld, or
machine things) because that is not the point of the education. The education
is meant to gear you towards making principle based designs rather than
history based design and in order to that, which requires a lot of theory.

[1] [http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-
pictures/](http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/)

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mattkrause
It ought to be a training path for academia too!

It’s always struck me as strange that the skills needed to _get_ a faculty job
(essentially, the ability to produce interesting data) are mostly disjoint
from those needed to _keep_ the same job (management, grant writing).

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geebee
This topic always makes me a little suspicious. Are we trying to meet an
industry demand, or are we looking for a relief valve for an excess of PhDs?

Doctoral students are such a good deal for universities, I can see why they’d
want lots of them. Yes professional students and MS students pay tuition and
sometimes TA a bit, but for high skilled low wage labor that lands big grants,
there’s nothing like a few doctoral students to write the code or do the lab
work.

I’m not convinced that industry bound students need to lean these skills at
low wages in a grad program with long completion times and high attrition
rates. Elite JD students are completed in a consistent 3 years and have an
attrition rate typically below one half of one percent, and they don’t
graduate ready to practice law. They learn this working brutal hours under
stressful conditions at $180,000+ a year. Elite PhD programs take over twice
as long and have attrition rates of about 35-50% depending on the discipline.

A shorter, more consistent practice oriented doctoral degree makes sense
compared to a PhD but... is there a market for it? I’m not just asking if
they’d get hired, I’m asking if they’d be hired at sufficiently higher rates
than MS or BS holders to justify the expense and loss of earnings. Would it be
competitive with those degrees + an MBA?

There are still reasons to do it. The nature of the job is also a factor.
Senior CRUD bug fixer (or overstressed lawyer) might pay a little (or a lot)
better that Senior analyser of fascinating data sets, and lave lower entry
costs. But I can see why someone would pay a bit more to earn a bit less to
get a more interesting job. There are limits though. Is a PhD or even one if
these alternate doctorates really essential? Or even worth the opportunity
cost?

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alexgmcm
I'd rather ensure research was better funded and thus a more viable career
path (with more research institutes separate from colleges to level out the
pyramid structure)

Otherwise it just seems like turning a PhD into job training - something which
is already happening to many undergraduate degrees as the BSc becomes the new
High School Diploma.

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newen
Agreed. And I feel like the whole PhD atmosphere of striving to do good
research and discover new things is what makes the PhD graduate valuable. If
it was like job training, that environment just wouldn't be there.

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Upvoter33
One thing that is nice about computer science, perhaps as compared the natural
sciences, is that a Ph.D. is absolutely a valuable industry degree. Just look
at some of the best examples: Jeff Dean, Sanjay Ghemawat to name two. Many
modern companies in the computer industry - though not all - value Ph.D.s and
actively try to hire them.

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miles7
I agree they do, but in my experience they also make them do aptitude tests
like whiteboard coding or asking trick math questions. These tests overlook
the actual (rare) skills the candidate has in favor of skills more often known
only to certain types of engineers and CS majors.

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flor1s
In The Netherlands we have a specific degree on the PhD level but focused on
practical research, called PDEng (Professional Doctorate in Engineering).

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Aromasin
We have a similar thing called an EngD in the UK. There are about 20
institutions that do, most of them well regarded and from what I've heard do a
great job at providing you industry links throughout.

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physicsguy
I think the CDT programmes in various fields are also pretty good at preparing
people for industry careers. A lot of PhD projects are either aiming to
address industrial concerns and are industry funded or are tangentially
related, and people who aren't industry funded benefit by getting exposure to
that world through their colleagues.

