

Are we doomed? What do I do? - thatguy

Hi startuppers.<p>We are two guys starting a self-funded software company in a smallish town. We are about 6 months in and have the majority of a product, minus the informational web-app, money-handling portion of the app, and minus all the business junk (we are not incorporated yet).<p>So here is the problem: we don't click. At all. We are 10 years apart, and we disagree on everything. It is to the point that just about nothing has been done in the last month, and whenever we are in each others presence there is a whole lot of negative tension. This tension has kind of been there from the beginning, but has really escalated in the last couple months (so 1/2 to 1/3 of the company's life). I feel like shit every day. I am the most stressed and depressed that I have ever been in my entire life. I am soo burnt that when I think about the project it makes me actually sick to my stomach. My relationship with the partner and now this product feels like an on-of girlfriend. When I decide I am done, I want it back, and when I am in it I desperately want out. We have been trying to work through it, but instead of doing work, all we end up doing is talking about whether or not we should continue.<p>I have about a year of savings left, and I keep telling myself that I should just stick it out until I am broke. But if this is really the wrong path (as it strongly feels like most of the time), I figure it is better to get out now. Ugh!<p>I don't know WTF to do. Are these normal feelings? Do all (or any) _successful_ startups go through this stuff. I always figured there would be hardships and problems, but I figured there would be something for me to continually grab onto. You know, "this is crappy, but at least our product will change the world." I don't feel like that.<p>So what would you do? Have you been in this situation? Do successful startups have people who click at the helm? Can they survive with a bad partner relationship?
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nostrademons
I'd get out.

There will always be disagreements in a startup. But you should never feel
like you dread seeing your cofounder. If it's seriously making you stressed
and depressed, give it up. Startups should at least make you feel energized
and enthusiastic, even if they aren't exactly "fun". If you can't muster that
sort of passion, you're probably already doomed.

The successful teams I've worked on had plenty of disagreements and "we're
doomed" moments. But then we'd work things out, come to an agreement, and
everything would be great again. The unsuccessful teams were the ones where we
just didn't respect the people we were working with. When things went wrong,
it was their fault, and they never made rational decisions, and why were we
working together anyway?

BTW, there's a lot to be said for quitting _before_ you're broke. It gives you
negotiating leverage when you apply for your next job, and can increase your
options as far as possible jobs. (For example, I'm moving across the country
for my next job, and finding that if I did not have a lot of cash reserves
saved up, I'd run into serious cash-flow problems. Good companies will help
pay for your move, but you usually need the money before you officially start
with them.)

~~~
thatguy
Well, getting a job in another city (one where things happen perhaps?) has
been on my mind quite a bit. And that has been my rationale: I get out now,
then I have some time to look/apply for jobs somewhere else.

But then my train of thought degrades to this:

\- look/apply for job in another city \- what to do while looking? \- might as
well work on this company and maybe we can turn it around

So then I decide to stay anyway. I should probably just suck it up, eat the
failure, be done so we stop poisoning each other, then maybe take freelance
stuff for the time being.

~~~
nostrademons
You probably should stick it out while looking. It gives you negotiating
leverage if your previous employer isn't dead before you get a new job.

But look seriously. It takes a while to apply for jobs; both times I took a
new job, I started looking about 2 months before I actually started (okay,
there was also a startup where they contacted me, we met for lunch, and I
started the next day, but that's the exception). And it takes quite a bit of
attention. Since it seems like you can't stand your cofounder or the thought
of working on the product, use all that procrastination time to inquire
seriously about jobs. Then you can fold the startup when you have an offer.

And if things miraculously turn around with the startup, you could do that
instead of taking the job.

------
pedalpete
I would suspect if things are this bad early on, AND the relationship results
in the product not moving forward at all, then maybe this is dead.

Furthermore, you don't seem to be that interested in the software you are
developing (though I could be misunderstanding). Am I correct that you don't
feel that your product will change the world?

I would say that you don't have the passion to keep this idea/company going.
Maybe this isn't the right idea for you (or both of you). Clearly you got
involved for a reason, what was that? How did you end up with this partner.
I've worked on project where people didn't get along, but we were all so
focused on the result that it didn't REALLY matter. The end result wasn't as
good as it would be had we all gotten along, but that didn't happen.

There are no shortage of great things to do in this life. If this is not one
of those things, and it is making you unhappy, i'd suggest figuring out what
would be better.

That doesn't mean you have to walk away from this right away, but it sounds
like you're already there.

~~~
thatguy
I was interested. But all this stuff between us has really taken it out of me.
I have admittedly seen the quality of the things I have done lately suffer
from an attitude of "oh, thats good enough for now."

Although it was probably rhetorical: How did we end up together? We worked in
the same company for a little while and we both wanted to start a company. He
was having problems finding a partner, and I was too. Unfortunately, there are
not many people interested in starting companies around here, so we thought we
should give it a go together. There were pretty major disagreements from the
start, but I thought it was normal.

~~~
pedalpete
I didn't mean it rhetorically. I personally don't think that finding a partner
should be focused on 'somebody who wanted to start a business' as much as both
of you being passionate about what you are doing.

You'll hear it a million times. If you aren't passionate about what you are
doing, then you're going to find it exceedingly difficult to make it a
success. If you were/are both passionate about the idea, than the
disagreements could/should enable you to make a better product. If you aren't
passionate about what you are building, then why do it?

I think that is the most important question you need to decide for yourself.

~~~
thatguy
Yeah, the idea was something we came up with after we decided to start a
company together. We did a bunch of brainstorming over a few months and
decided on this project because out of all the ideas, it was the idea that had
the best potential to actually support us. We had a lot of free-web-service
ideas, but he is very very against ad supported services, and that's what most
of the other ideas would have become.

Anyway, the idea we picked was the one he was most passionate about, but I was
merely interested in. Since he is really the one funding this and I simply
need to support myself, I bit onto it. My passion was building a company that
was great to work at. That passion, however is almost gone, as I don't like my
'job' anymore. Maybe I am incapable of creating that environment with this
partner/project? Maybe that environment just comes about organically? I really
feel like much of what have been done so far has been forced. The problem is I
dont know what the successful startup guys feel like in this situation. I dont
know how I am supposed to know when it is 'right' because I have never started
a successful company. Do they force it? Or does it fall into place? Is it
supposed to feel like trudging through 5 feet of snow everyday? Or is that
when it goes wrong? Is it normal to burn out on the project and dealing with
trying to patch the partnership after only 6 months?

I think it really comes down to this "I cant fail" mentality I have. I want
out, but that is failing. That is giving up. I don't give up.

I used to be sooo optimistic.

I appreciate the discussion. And I hope my end does not just come off as a
rant.

~~~
pedalpete
Everybody fails. The only ones who succeed are those who pick themselves up
and go at it again. "Fail fast, fail often" that's a recipe for success. I
forget who said it.

And really, you haven't failed at anything yet. Your only failure would be if
you refused to learn from your mistakes.

I truly believe that you must be passionate about what you are doing in order
to make it work, and as you've said, the two of you had discussed many ideas,
so clearly you see there is lots of opportunity.

Yes, it is supposed to be hard, like trudging through 5 feet of snow. But it's
like trudging through 5 feet of SNOW!! Like when you where a kid and you'd
willingly trudge through that snow because you knew at the top of the hill you
would get to ride down. If you are trudging through 5 feet of snow and don't
see a hill (or anything else fun about it). then maybe it's time to head back
inside and warm up and replan.

Just so you know, I started my company with only an ad model, but later found
that there were other revenue opportunities. This was after launching the site
once with a completely different model, than relaunching it and getting a bit
of traction, and then customers (or potential customers) seeing the potential
of what I had built and them asking me to build what they want. It's about
what your customers want you to do.

I'd suggest re-examining your previous ideas and thinking about other possible
revenue streams. The ad model is going to be very difficult over the next
year.

------
makecheck
Disagreeing in itself isn't necessarily bad, as it's sometimes the only way to
find true faults in an idea or implementation.

You have to decide if the things you're disagreeing about, are fundamental
things. If it's just difference of opinion (just like no two developers seem
to have the same coding style), you have to move forward. But if it's
something related to how the company itself will be managed, then you probably
will have real difficulties.

If you think the management of the company will suffer from this, your options
are to quit or hire someone to do your job (and probably retain a stake in the
outcome yourself, e.g. remain part owner, or have an agreement to be given
some IPO shares).

------
bprater
Maybe you should speak to the differences you guys are having. Are you both
coding?

Are the style differences in how you are building the app hurting you?

Do you guys openly talk about the differences you are having and how to
resolve them, or is it just 'high tension' all day long? Do you need to learn
what the best communication style is between the both of you?

Is there a way to clearly separate the work you are doing so that one person
has the majority of the input on what he's doing and can be focused, for say,
a week or two at a time? At which point, you can go out to lunch, review
things, set up your todo list and go your way for another week or two? Not
working together in the same space may be a good idea.

I've been married 11 years and I've learned how to deal with sticky situations
like this: it's simple -- you just can't always win.

You have to pick your battles and sometimes (often?) cede for the common good.
You can learn to argue and still be fine 5 or 10 minutes later.

Also, you mention that you aren't passionate about the product. That is really
bad news when you are a founder. Is there some way you can rewrite your job
description so that you can find something passionate about the project that
can carry you through the first year or two?

------
skmurphy
If this is your only experience working with your partner then you should
consider either selling out to him or offering to buy him out.

If you have worked with him before successfully you should have a perspective
on whether or not to persevere.

If there is someone that both of you trust suggest a three way conversation to
get to the root cause set of issues.

~~~
sutro
It's a good idea in cases like this to set up a shotgun clause:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_clause>

------
ahoyhere
Forgive me for the following, but it's like that Kenny G song: You gotta know
when to fold em, know when to run.

You're in a sunk cost situation. Throwing good money (time, stress, your
dwindling sanity) at this situation is not going to come out in your favor.

You've already got your answer. You're the most miserable and depressed ever?
Who on earth would listen to that line and tell you to stay? It's time for you
to leave.

Now you just have to work out the specifics.

Don't wait til you're broke, though, because then you'll be really desperate.

Don't confuse the "when it's not there, I want it" feeling with genuinely
missing it, because that's pretty much the stereotypical situation with any
abusive relationship. Once you're truly free from it, your overall feeling is
going to be like there's a giant weight that just lifted from your shoulders.

You can get through this. You've already taken the big step of admitting
you're miserable & seeking a solution.

Best of luck.

