
Ontario's new license plates have a problem: you can't read them - pseudolus
https://www.npr.org/2020/02/18/807133008/ontarios-new-license-plates-have-a-problem-you-can-t-read-them
======
stanski
Had the good fortune today to drive behind two cars, side by side, one
sporting the old license plate and the other the old one. I could only read
the old, white background plate but not the new blue one. And that was in
broad daylight.

Anyone claiming that the blue plates are perfectly readable has either never
seen them in action or is downright lying.

Incredible that vehicle plates are a political issue but there you have it.
Nothing is too low in Ontario politics anymore.

~~~
rezgi
It is apparently not illegal in Ontario to put these very, very dark plastic
covers over your plates either, making them so dark that they're barely
legible unless you have your nose on that car. Including the (now) old design.

Really, all you can see is a dark, smoked, grey rectangle where the plate is.
I'm amazed this is legal.

~~~
KSS42
It is illegal in Ontario. From the Ontario Highway Traffic Act:

Number plates, further violations No other numbers to be exposed 13 (1) No
number other than that upon the number plate furnished by the Ministry shall
be exposed on any part of a motor vehicle or trailer in such a position or
manner as to confuse the identity of the number plate. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s.
13 (1).

Number plate to be kept clean (2) Every number plate shall be kept free from
dirt and obstruction and shall be affixed so that the entire number plate,
including the numbers, is plainly visible at all times, and the view of the
number plate shall not be obscured or obstructed by spare tires, bumper bars,
any part of the vehicle, any attachments to the vehicle or the load carried.
1994, c. 27, s. 138 (7).

Obstruction prohibited (3) The number plates shall not be obstructed by any
device that prevents the entire number plates including the numbers from being
accurately photographed using an automated speed enforcement system. 2017, c.
9, s. 3.

Same (3.0.1) The number plates shall not be obstructed by any device that
prevents the entire number plates including the numbers from being accurately
photographed using a red light camera system. 1998, c. 38, s. 2 (1).

Same (3.1) The number plates shall not be obstructed by any device or material
that prevents the entire number plates including the numbers from being
identified by an electronic toll system. 1996, c. 1, Sched. E, s. 2 (1).

Offence (4) Every person who contravenes subsection (2), (3), (3.0.1) or (3.1)
is guilty of an offence. 1993, c. 31, s. 2 (5); 1996, c. 1, Sched. E, s. 2
(2); 1998, c. 38, s. 2 (2).

~~~
ornornor
Right. You wouldn’t be able to tell by just walking around though. Every third
cars has one of these plate darkener screens. And many cars also have windows
so tinted you can’t even tell if it’s a man or a woman driving.

------
mfoy_
Ridiculous situation:

MPP Lisa Thompson defends new Ontario licence plates. Video clip from Question
Period, she calls previous license plates "Liberal plates".

[https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/f5xbtt/mpp_lisa_th...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/f5xbtt/mpp_lisa_thompson_defends_new_ontario_licence/)

~~~
metalliqaz
What the hell is wrong with people?

I thought Canadians were better than this. Don't believe what your own eyes
are telling you. Orwell turning over in his grave.

~~~
jfengel
It works. The US has a remarkable ability to aim for the lowest common
denominator -- in movies, in food, in technology -- and export that to the
rest of the world. We're very good at finding things that are broadly
appealing, and rewarding the people who create them.

Politics is no exception. The world watches us, and they take what works. None
of it is ever really novel, but a lot of it lies fallow until somebody says,
"Hey, we should try that again." And at first people may say, "You can't do
that, because mumble mumble," but the reply is "I can't hear you over the
sound of you losing."

Trolling your opponents is hardly new, but we've polished it off and
discovered that it's a great way to bond a political party. They feel
enthusiastic, and they go out and vote for more of it, while demoralizing your
opponents -- who go out and try to make sense even harder, and fail worse,
because it's the reason they lose in the first place. They remain baffled that
people fall for cheap tricks, without ever accepting the reality that they do.

~~~
flycaliguy
No offence to any American looking to feel influential, but the Ford brothers
were operating this tabloid populist bandwagon up here before Trump stepped
up.

~~~
lonelappde
I thought Doug Ford entered politics in 2010. Before Trump was elected but
after he became a Republican attack dog on Twitter, spreading lies about
candidate Barack Obama.

~~~
flycaliguy
Before Trump launched a serious populist political machine. Rob Ford started
rolling the ball in 2001.

The start of political office Trump, when the actual machinery was put into
motion as an organization, was 2016. They would have been crazy to not be
using the Ford brothers as a useful model.

------
3pt14159
As the article states, it's in the same colour as the centre-right (by US
standards) political party and to many of us here it feels like they're
"trolling the libs" with these plates. One of the early plans of this
government was to remove parts of The Greenbelt[0] and turn it into more
suburban sprawl. Thankfully this was canceled after outrage from people here.
So "A Place to Grow" seems extra rich in light of that. It's an economic
message, not an environmental one.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenbelt_(Golden_Horseshoe)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenbelt_\(Golden_Horseshoe\))

~~~
bryanlarsen
Most greenbelts are almost completely environmental failures. Designed to
concentrate development on the inner core, they simply encourage the spread of
the massive bedroom communities that develop outside of the greenbelt. They're
also generally too small to support a viable large animal population which are
a critical part of any ecosystem.

But AFAICT, the golden horseshoe greenbelt has neither of these problems: it's
very large, and on the far side of most GTA bedroom communities.

~~~
52-6F-62
To wit, the Ontario greenbelt contains some essential watersheds.

[https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/greenbelt/pages/383/at...](https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/greenbelt/pages/383/attachments/original/1381944119/dsf_watersheds_ontario_greenbelt_web.pdf)

The last time the province's water needs weren't properly cared-for resulted
in what's known as the Walkerton Tragedy.

[https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/walkerton-...](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/walkerton-
tragedy)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkerton_E._coli_outbreak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkerton_E._coli_outbreak)

~~~
bryanlarsen
Completely unrelated. Cattle farming is allowed within the greenbelt, and
feedlots were the source of Walkerton's E. coli.

~~~
52-6F-62
They are related in that a government decided to politicize something like
water testing (or in this case, environmental protection).

The watersheds are essential for filtering water that hits Ontarian cities.

Walkerton was the result of negligence and disregard for the environment and
people's safety.

We could easily run into a similar situation if faced with similar wanton
disregard for the functions of the watersheds by deregulating the greenbelt
and selling the land off to private suburban development companies whose sole
priority is extracting as much profit as possible from initial sales. (Opening
that land up to private developers was Ford's stated intention and he only
backed down after he drew a lot of public outrage at the notion).

------
Phillips126
Wow that is an awful design for visibility.

As a New York resident I noticed when the plates changed in 2010 I personally
found them harder to read [0]. The white background with dark letters/numbers
used from 2001-2010 seemed like the better option... I wonder what law
enforcement thought of the change. Seems they are about to change again to
something with better contrast starting April 2020 [1].

Also an interesting side note I've noticed that a lot of the new license
plates are peeling causing them to look entirely metallic. I see NY dropped
their contract with 3M likely due to this issue [2].

[0] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_New_York)

[1] -
[https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/alb...](https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2019/09/06/new-
york-license-plate-design-in-april-2020/2196965001/)

[2] - [https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/08/new-york-ends-
contract...](https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/08/new-york-ends-contract-
with-company-linked-to-peeling-license-plates.html)

~~~
reaperducer
I don't think that the police had a problem with the black-on-orange color
scheme. It worked fine for New York for what seemed like forever back in the
70's.

As for peeling paint, that's a problem that West Virginia has in the early
90's, too. The urban legend was that it was caused by the prisoners who made
the plates peeing in the paint.

~~~
Phillips126
That is likely true and perhaps it is just my vision. I just find the contrast
to be worse leading to me personally having a harder time reading it in
moving-vehicle conditions.

All NY license plates are made in the Auburn Correctional Facility. Had they
been made in multiple locations it would be interesting to see if all of the
problems were stemming from a single source or if it is an issue with
materials. That is an interesting urban legend.

------
pletsch
Saw a few of these this weekend, I'm curious to see if the 407 (Ontario's toll
road)cameras can read them at night. I imagine this gets changed quite quickly
if they can only read the old plates.

~~~
loceng
On CBC radio call in portion of a show a police officer agreed they're not
good to read, definitely not easier, and I believe he was the caller that
theorized that the blue background colour is reflective but they didn't
reflect the letting itself: he theorized that made it easier for toll cameras
to read the plates (better contrast) but not for human eyes.

Also an ex-firefighter called in too and said that the flat plates (old ones
had the characters imprinted) would make it more difficult to identify the
remains of fiery vehicle crashes.

~~~
reaperducer
Burned vehicles are identified by their VIN numbers, not their plates.

Your be surprised how often cars have the wrong/stolen/fake license plates.

~~~
yohannparis
True, but they said "more difficult", with plates it takes minutes for a
Police officer over the radio to give you information on the Make/Model of a
vehicle. Then for more details, you can fetch the VIN, but that is a more
difficult task.

------
dangus
Things I can’t understand:

\- Why North America doesn’t adopt European-style plates instead of the tiny,
squished ones they have

\- Why license plates are allowed to act as regional advertisements for local
states and provinces rather than identifiers

\- Why Canadians keep the Ford family in power

~~~
squiggleblaz
Actually I kinda think the European ones seem quite squished. They're
certainly wider, but the letters are smaller to fit the shorter vertical
height. A matter of what you're used to? (Incidentally, in Australia, you can
get three kinds of local plate shapes, as well as German-style, Japanese-style
and American-style plates. I guess shape and size aren't really that important
as long as they're legible and all those plate dimensions have been deemed
legible.)

They're allowed to act as regional advertisements since it's the regional
government that creates them. Why would they ban themselves? Why do German
number plates have symbols of Europe, Germany, the state and the city that
issues them? French and Italian plates are similar. There's definitely an
unsubtle nationalism in European plates, it's just not as loud and in-your-
face as the American ones. More like: "We in europe are important. Become
accustomed to our authority. We in germany are important. Become accustomed to
our authority." etc.

I think the only real issue is why they're so bloody hard to read. I see
nothing wrong with a black-on-white plate that says "How great's Ontario!" but
why so much color? It seems that the decentralisation of law enforcement in
North America probably has something to answer for here - they can't
adequately veto stupid plate designs.

~~~
dangus
I guess it’s just my eyeballs, I feel like I can read European plates from
further away. Just a subjective perspective.

They’re very high contrast black on white with nice, proportional, thick
letters, while the North American plates throw pictures and slogans
everywhere.

------
pszndr
> The plates also had a new slogan – "A Place to Grow" – which drew the ire of
> some critics, who preferred the previous "Yours to Discover," which the
> plates had sported since 1982

Both are just as corny as they are useless in a license plate. Why put in
novelty stuff? License plates are for identification, and should serve solely
that function.

~~~
pseudolus
"A Place to Grow" \- It's a pretty transparent move to encourage cannabis
growers to set up shop in Ontario.

~~~
mthoms
The (Conservative) Ontario government was/is opposed to legalization.

~~~
blaser-waffle
If Trudeau was pushing it you can bet the PCs are against it.

------
jhack
The most inept provincial government we've had since the last time to Cons
were in charge. An absolute embarrassment.

------
mumblemumble
It seems that, as governments become more and more preoccupied with viewing
license plates as an advertising platform, they've largely lost sight of their
_actual_ purpose.

------
Pigo
If you have a really fast car and want to commit a crime, Ontario might be the
place to be right now.

~~~
stanski
"A place to grow"

------
MrStonedOne
>In an emailed statement, Ontario's government says it "consulted with key
stakeholders to test the readability, reflectivity and functionality of the
new high definition plate design. Ontario's new high definition licence plates
were tested using advanced plate reader technology under multiple visibility
conditions, and plates were successfully read under those conditions."

>But it acknowledged that "some Ontarians are reporting concerns with
readability to the naked-eye under certain light conditions," and says it is
looking into the issue.

\---

In the aftermath Ontario brags about how they tested it with stakeholders and
super advance ai enhanced plate readers... They don't admit there is a
problem, just that some people report there is a problem.

This is what happens when you put too much faith in the fact you tested.

The "older" scanners that the police have should have been tested, visibility
of people with multiple color sight profiles (think: the dress) and eye sight
distance (ie: other then 20/20) should have been tested.

Not to mention that I can almost guarantee there is some scientific research
into visibility and colors that would have predicted this just based off of
color palette alone.

~~~
chooseaname
> Not to mention that I can almost guarantee there is some scientific research
> into visibility and colors that would have predicted this just based off of
> color palette alone.

Well, blue is the harder color for the human eye to see; night makes it worse.

------
stewjacks
"A Place to Grow" drew ire because it comes from a weird "provincialist" 60's
anthem commissioned by the same Progressive Conservative government. Check it
out:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU1wUfqhsM8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU1wUfqhsM8)

~~~
52-6F-62
It's continually amazing to me how far they will go to politicize something.

And now the old plates are "the Liberal's fault". They were also introduced by
the PCs some time back. Cue eyeroll.

That said, I'll take "A Place to Grow" over "Open for Business" as we once
feared.

All this to do some political posturing but we can't afford to let studies and
trials keep running that were already under way. If I let my eyes keep rolling
this hard I might lose my balance.

~~~
UseStrict
Worst thing is that new commercial plates do have "Open for Business" on them.
Fun fact, a lot of those black license plates on pickup trucks are commercial-
style plates, meaning all the redneck truck-driving coal-rolling Conservative
base will be cruising around with "Open for Business" on their trucks once the
new plate designs come into effect.

~~~
frosted-flakes
To clarify, UseStrict means black letters on a white background. The normal
ones are blue letters on a white background (with the slogan "Yours to
Discover" on both).

------
whalesalad
Hey at least they aren't e-ink: [https://www.reviewgeek.com/4225/california-
unveils-new-e-ink...](https://www.reviewgeek.com/4225/california-unveils-new-
e-ink-license-plates-in-limited-pilot-program/)

~~~
moftz
There is clearly some sort of graft involved here. Some Sacremento official's
sibling or spouse sits on the board for whatever company is building these.

If California is like other states, you get your little registration sticker
in the mail, stick it on, and you are done for the year (or two). Paying $84
each year for someone to put the sticker on for me seems quite excessive.

Autonomous already have tracking systems built-in them. They call home so why
bother with an additional tracking system, especially a state-run one? It
can't even control the vehicle so you wouldn't be able to do anything
important. The battery life on those can't be very long either so I'm sure it
isn't reporting it's position very often. To run a system for managing
autonomous cars and their routes, you need fine location and you need it often
(i.e. the built-in tracker that runs off of a huge rechargeable battery).

Turn the license plate into a giant tamper-evident sticker if you're worried
about theft, it could be designed to still show the plate number if someone
tries to rip it off.

Spending over $1000 over a five year life of a car, per car, is a little much
for a redundant tracking system, the convenience of changing the registration
year for you, and the PRIVILEGE of running ads on the back of your car (making
even more money off you). You could probably save money hiring someone to run
all over the city putting yearly stickers on the fleet once a month.

------
a2tech
Thats not a bug, its a feature

~~~
whoopdedo
Self-blurring for Google Maps compatibility.

------
allenu
I’m curious just what process was in place to let this happen. Yes, I know
it’s government, but I’m really curious what organizational process is in
place to allow such an obvious thing to slip through.

~~~
theluketaylor
The current conservative government has no organizational process. Dougie
makes a decision and then it's implemented at breakneck speed, ignoring all
precedent, organizational structure, and institutional learning.

He drew the new "Ontario Line" subway with a marker, replacing decades of
planning for the Relief Line Toronto needs desperately. The subway is
dangerously overcrowded at peak times and these changes will likely set the
opening date back years.

He ordered gas stations to display a sticker showing the cost of the federal
carbon tax simply because he doesn't like it with no planning. That was after
scrapping the existing cap and trade program with a single pen stroke (costing
the province hundreds of millions in broken contracts). Leaving the existing
program alone would have meant no federal carbon tax.

He invented an environmental issues with bats to halt construction on a
partially complete windfarm. Even local bat experts have no idea what he's
talking about.

He passed a law saying public servants can't get a raise more than 1% prior to
negotiating with the various teacher unions so he could negotiate in bad
faith. After claiming there was no money for teachers he started paying
parents a per diem for childcare during the rotating strikes.

During an active election he changed the number of councillors in Toronto city
hall and threatened to use the notwithstanding clause to enforce it.

Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. All of these
policies were announced with no public discussion, input period, or time to
contact MPPs. Simply dreamt up by Dougie on the weekend and implemented Monday
morning.

Premiers of provinces have a ton of power and not much beyond parliamentary
norms hold them in check. Doug has exploited this to an extreme extent.

~~~
52-6F-62
> _He invented an environmental issues with bats to halt construction on a
> partially complete windfarm. Even local bat experts have no idea what he 's
> talking about._

Worse! They actively started tearing down completed windmills as part of that
project to the tune of $100 million!

~~~
ghettoCoder
So what if they did? The people forced to live with the windmills never
wanted, gained nothing from them, and were completely sidelined, vilified, and
cast as hicks, rednecks, or climate deniers for having the audacity to
question the plan. They fought back using the ballot box and now are being
rewarded with what they desired. To be heard.

We absolutely need to decarbonize our economy but there's a right way to do it
where everyone is heard and involved. Ramming things through by fiat over the
objection of the hosts never ends well, even if you believe you know best.
This is how you get more Trump, Ford, Scheer, Brexit, etc...

Blows my mind that people never learn this.

~~~
52-6F-62
I'm not interested in getting into a political flame war over some windmills,
but I think it's a bit of a gross oversimplification to say that the people
gained nothing from them.

There were extensive public consultations. You can view the outcome from that
here:

[https://whitepineswindfarm.webs.com/20120901%20WPWF%20(1-41-...](https://whitepineswindfarm.webs.com/20120901%20WPWF%20\(1-41-013\)%2013%20Consultation%20Report.pdf)

Some of the "sidelined" concerns were pseudo-scientific complaints about
health effects but those were _still_ addressed with sincerity.

Nothing was "rammed" through, and suggesting such a project was is pretty
dishonest.

~~~
ghettoCoder
This was done to finally shut of the coal plants (a good thing in my mind) but
the GTA consumes a lot of electricity and it had to come from somewhere. So in
a classic case of externalizing their problem they voted to make it someone
else's problem. The sitting government took away local planning and oversight,
created setback guidelines based strictly on what the industry wanted and
practically all of the "consultations" were held in the gta far away from the
people actually affected by them.

Host communities didn't gain anything other than many folks having dried-up or
polluted wells from the footings driven into the ground, seeing roads
destroyed by heavy truck traffic with no compensations to the municipality,
and none of the promised green jobs materialized. They lost scenic views (some
like windmills, some don't), property values, a general sense of knowing that
they, and their opinions matter. Losing that last one is the most dangerous to
a functioning society.

I'm still puzzled that you assume I have chosen a side in this. There' no war
here since you are clearly unable to see both sides of the issue and further
discussion is pointless.

~~~
52-6F-62
Your chosen language was pretty inflammatory.

I linked the document providing the large numbers of public consultations and
their results. You made a lot of pretty inflammatory assertions as well, but
I've _never_ heard of these things from anywhere else.

Keeping in mind my home county is full of windmills on all sides. Not once
have I heard of wells drying up or being polluted even from their harsher
critics. And in this county nobody was "forced" to house a windmill. Farmers
who opted to house one are well compensated to boot.

There are environmental studies done and accountability with regular updates
to a number of institutions including Environment Canada expressly to prevent
such problems. You can see how I am hesitant to believe hearsay in opposition
to the results of studies by these kinds of organizations.

------
quaffapint
It's like Pennsylvania's Flagship Niagara plate that they had to pull. Who
thought white letters on a light background was a good idea? I still
occasionally see them.

[https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/all-time-worst-
license-p...](https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/all-time-worst-license-
plate-ever-262045)

------
julianlam
I suppose this means there might be a secondary market for the old plates
given the near-universal disdain for the new ones.

~~~
TallGuyShort
I would expect disdain from engineers (and tax payers in general) for a poor
design. There's another interesting market that might really like an invisible
license plate...

------
isuckatcoding
Looks like an artificially created problem for some computer vision software
to step in maybe??

------
chooseaname
Why do (standard) plates have to be fancy? If you want to sell fancy plates
for more money, and people are okay with that, then do it, but make the
standard ones cheap, boring and easy to read.

~~~
spookthesunset
Meh, the marginal cost of having "fancy" plates is a trivially small amount on
a per-plate basis.

------
adtac
I wonder how well this translates to the readability of white text in dark
background to dark text in a light background that we see in text editors.
Which one is better for the eyes?

~~~
adossi
Legibility of text on a reflective surface (i.e.: license plate) and the eye
strain caused by staring at a light emitting screen don't necessarily relate.
You can still have a sufficient contrast ratio between the background and text
colors in your text editor, using a dark theme, while reducing eye strain,
while still keeping things legible.

------
m3kw9
That’s gonna mess with plate recognition algorithms. They’d need to prob
retrain a lot of data using plates as certain letters gets crossed over with
the new “camo” paint

------
jaybeeayyy
The SovCits with their cardboard/paper taped to their bumpers were able to
make em more readable than this.

------
ropiwqefjnpoa
Dark color font on light background, guess they didn't get the memo...

~~~
nraynaud
I think it's a bit more precisely that the new plate is entirely retro-
reflective while the old one was not reflective at all on the letter, almost
binary.

~~~
frosted-flakes
Not just that, the old plates were stamped with raised lettering. The new ones
are just printed.

------
chongli
Recall that this is the same provincial government that used public money to
put stickers on gas pumps in what amounts to a protest on federal carbon
taxes. Taxpayer money spent on a brazenly partisan political campaign.

~~~
99052882514569
Stickers that didn't even stick right (very poor adhesive). This from a
premier who ran a sticker and decal company.

------
Dumblydorr
Side note: why did Ontario voters go from one Ford to another? Did they think,
I loved the previous Ford except for the drugs and debauchery? Why does name
count for so much in elections? Sigh

~~~
99052882514569
They tried the drug using brother, that didn't work out too great. So they
decided to go with the drug dealing brother[0] instead.

[0] [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-
investiga...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-
investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/)

------
HenryKissinger
The concept of physical license plates is completely outdated anyway.

~~~
millzlane
Yep, I can take plates off of relatively anycar I see, preferably the same
make, model, and color. Skip tolls, red lights, kill anyone, be a get away
vehicle, collect parking tickets practically do anything I want where I didn't
want to be identified by my license plate. License plates unless they're
permanently affixed to cars is a bit outdated.

Identifying license plates on the vehicle should be more permanent. Similar to
the VIN. Otherwise if they can be changed so easily they're kind of pointless.
They operate on good faith.

~~~
hwc
Paint a QR code of the VIN on the front and back bumpers at the factory. Done.

~~~
mumblemumble
Studies indicate that human witnesses are _terrible_ at memorizing QR codes.

I've heard they're also really hard to type into pay-by-plate parking meters
and the like.

