
6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal  I'm White' - user_235711
http://www.npr.org/2015/05/06/404432206/six-words-my-name-is-jamaal-im-white
======
Kenji
I don't think the other people are at fault here. I think it's reasonable to
assume that someone with a stereotypically black name is black, just like it's
reasonable to assume that a random IT professor is male based on the fact that
90%* actually are. As long as you owe up to your error when you notice it (and
e.g. apologize). It's a reasonable optimization that works out more often than
not.

The problem only starts when the treatment of the person depends on the
category they belong to and if that difference in treatment is not based on
reason and evidence.

*example, may not be accurate

~~~
kaa2102
It is absolutely unreasonable. When you say it "works out more often than not"
I would ask "For whom?" Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of
unarmed black men and women.

Studies have shown that resumes with black-sounding names get fewer callbacks
and we treat black men like white men with a criminal record.

Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?
[http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873](http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873)

Norton Pscyhology: Devah Pager and Dalton Conley discuss racism and the stigma
of criminal record
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CofLE3q3Qh0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CofLE3q3Qh0)

~~~
contergan
>Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?

That's impossible to say on an individual level, but it is very likely. If you
phrase the question differently, there's a pretty clear answer:

>On average, are two white people more employable than two black people?

Without knowing any further info about the possible candidates - Yes. Looking
at education statistics in the US, it becomes clear pretty quickly, that the
average white person has a higher education level, than the average black
person for example. That's a pretty important factor to look for as an
employer. I'm sure statistics on work experience will look similar.

And of course this is quite racist, but as long as different races exist, that
really just means taking reality into account. Pretending there are no
differences between different population groups is insane and
counterproductive.

~~~
LordKano
Education statistics cut both ways.

Ask the question this way.

Are Brittany McKnight and John Wilson more employable than Lukwesa Nakazwe and
Hijani Lungo?

Yes and it is obviously about race. Why? On average, Africans immigrants are
more highly educated than native born Caucasians.

It's not about education. It's not about statistics. It's about racism. There
have been studies where researchers submitted resumes with identical education
and employment backgrounds but substituted "white sounding" names for "black
sounding" names and the ones with the "black sounding" names were half as
likely to be contacted by prospective employers.

With the same education and the same work experience, "Je'Marcus Johnson" is
half as likely to even be interviewed as "Mark Johnson".

~~~
kaa2102
Survivorship bias. I went to a happy hour a week ago right after the Baltimore
riots when a real estate exec starting going on and on about how blacks just
needed to work harder - like many different immigrants.

This is survivor ship bias - comparing immigrants who left hell for the
American Dream vs people living an American Nightmare. This is akin to
comparing Olympic gold medal winners to members in a high school band. A
better comparison would be comparing people of a similar socio-economic level
in different countries.

~~~
LordKano
I thoroughly enjoy those kinds of situations.

I use them to either get the person to re-evaluate their thinking or admit in
public that they're just a racist.

One of my fiance's family friends works for the FBI and we were discussing
racial profiling. He didn't understand why innocent people object to it. I
explained to him that I'm not a criminal and it's always be a negative
experience if someone treats me like I am one.

He asked if it doesn't make me feel safer to know that law enforcement is
doing its job. I explained that if their only reason to suspect me of anything
is the color of my skin, that it's racist and that I already know that I'm not
a criminal. I wasn't a criminal yesterday. I'm not likely to become a criminal
tomorrow and if law enforcement is wasting time, both theirs and mine, by
bothering me; they're not out there actually catching criminals. I saw the
expression on his face change. That thought had never occurred to him. The
discussion ended with him conceding that he had never considered that before.

------
jrells
As a white guy with a (very mildly) African American sounding name, I have had
similar experiences. When I meet people in person after emailing them they
sometimes seem surprised, and some later admit they expected me to be black.
The worst example was when I was told by someone renting a room on craigslist
that they couldn't rent to me because I was a "security threat", even though I
had hardly said anything about myself. It must be tough for those who face
that kind of attitude constantly and are unable to escape it.

~~~
beachstartup
of course they can escape it. they just have to change their name. that's what
my family did for me, and what i will do for my kids if i have kids. as far as
i'm concerned if you have serious professional ambitions in the US, you're
being foolish if you keep an 'ethnic' sounding name.

keeping your disadvantageous name and arrogantly shaking your fist at the
world to change to suit your political tastes is insane to me.

~~~
foldr
I think the point is that the name is disadvantageous because it makes people
think that he's black, and black people cannot stop being black. In other
words, if you're actually black, then you can't escape racism just by changing
your name.

I'm not sure what you mean by "political tastes". I'd have thought pretty much
everyone was opposed to e.g. refusing to rent an apartment to someone because
of their name, or because you think that they're black.

~~~
beachstartup
> _In other words, if you 're actually black, then you can't escape racism
> just by changing your name._

no shit sherlock. but changing your name to a neutral sounding one, no matter
what your race, will get you in the door at a much higher rate, where you are
_actually able to present yourself and your abilities_ instead of having your
resume, application, submission, or email summarily tossed in the trash for no
reason other than prejudice.

small advantages like this compound over time. small disadvantages also
compound.

it's an optimization, and a highly effective one at that, but nothing more,
nothing less than that.

~~~
foldr
Changing your name might help, though it's sad that anyone should have to do
this.

I was replying because you (a) seemed to be missing the OP's point and (b)
were coming close to blaming victims of racial discrimination for not changing
their names.

~~~
vfa33
It's absolutely victim blaming, not just coming close to it.

Of all the backwards and ridiculous comments I've seen on race-related threads
here, that one is really exceptionally stupid.

~~~
beachstartup
there's basically two kinds of people in the world.

those that will sit around and mope and moan about how unfair the world is,
and invent terms like 'victim blaming'.

and those who take concrete, actionable steps to overcome or work around the
problem.

don't fucking fool yourself, _nothing_ will erase the prejudice against
certain names in the next 50 years. just ask any american who isn't white.
they've had to deal with this shit from the very beginning, it's not an
abstract textbook concept to them.

~~~
foldr
>nothing will erase the prejudice against certain names in the next 50 years.

Why the pessimism? Race relations have come on a decently long way in the last
50 years.

I don't think anyone's saying that it's wrong for someone to change their name
to avoid prejudice. The point is that no-one should be expected to change
their name for this reason.

~~~
beachstartup
that's very noble. but you sound like you're a white guy who has good
intentions but very loose grasp of how things work in reality. maybe i'm
wrong, but that's just my feeling.

~~~
foldr
I think you are missing my point. I'm not criticizing individuals for choosing
to change their names. I'm just pointing out that it's pretty shitty that they
feel the need to do this. If you're fine with the status quo as (I'm guessing)
a non-white person, then, well, good for you. But you shouldn't blame people
who don't choose to change their names.

------
Someone1234
Couple of off the cuff thoughts: Why can't people use the expression "niger"
in context? It was clearly meant as a racial insult, and I think people need
to remember that that is the way it is commonly used. Replacing it with a
placeholder doesn't make racism go away or make the word less racist, all it
does it soften the racism used in that instance.

His TSA story is more likely fiction. Is he saying that there are "TSA" in
London? And in either case I've never seen the TSA select people "randomly" by
name alone (in fact they do their profiling based on appearance, not name,
which is arguably even more insidious). Even if they DID select by name, how
would he, a selectee know the names of everyone else selected at the same
time? The whole story makes no sense and sounds made up (by someone who's
never travelled or been randomly selected no less).

I've been randomly selected a handful of times, but they don't know my name
when they do so.

~~~
ta86868
I have an acquaintance who looks white but was named Mohammed (he is Kurdish).
He changed his name to "Michael" because, as he said, "It's easier to say...
like for example at the airport."

I agree about referencing the word "nigger", Louis CK has a bit where he says
he hates the phrase "the n-word" because, "you still put the word 'nigger'
into my head, so it's not like you didn't say it".

But socially one probably has to accept reality, there's a court case about a
guy who was fired for saying the word, not using it in a derogatory way but
just referring to the word itself.

~~~
LordKano
A former co-worker is ethnically Persian but grew up in Belarus so he has a
vaguely European accent.

When traveling, he likes to wear a shirt that says "Italia" because when
airline security thinks that he's Italian, he gets less hassle.

~~~
rhaps0dy
My anecdotal evidence is in accord with this.

During the last few months, I have let myself have a beard. I have a darkish
skin, so with a beard I look very Arabic.

In my last flight, security were specially bothersome, making me open and show
my luggage. I didn't relate it until my friend pointed it out, but I am very
sure he was right now.

------
LordKano
I deal with this from the exact opposite perspective. I have a very midwestern
sounding name and people are often surprised when they meet me in person to
see that I am a big black guy.

I can be in a waiting room and when my name is called, the person calling me
is sometimes surprised when the 6'2" 250 pound black guy responds. I don't
really see shock but I do see surprise.

I admit, I have been guilty of this as well. When I was working my way through
college, I took a summer job at a machine shop. I was told that I'd be working
with "Jorel" on a particular shift. I was expecting, for all the world, a
black guy. Well, I showed up for the scheduled shift and I met Jorel. He was a
young white guy. It immediately made sense to me. I said to him "Your dad is a
comic book fan, isn't he?" and Jorel confirmed that he was. Then I said "With
that name, people usually think that you're black, don't they?" and again he
confirmed that they did. For us, that was the end of it. He was a nice enough
guy and we worked well enough together.

------
rburhum
I guess, for me, I never associate the name Jamal with black - to me it is
arabic like Gamal Abdel Nasser. Then again I was born and raised in South
America, so Gamal was not a curious name. It was the name that my "white"
brother was given to by my middle eastern dad!

~~~
jellicle
Don't worry, for the purposes of discrimination in the U.S. (and many other
places, no doubt), stereotypically Arabic names are just as good as
stereotypically African-American names. You're covered either way.

------
tyrel
My name is Tyrel, I run into this a lot of the time as well.

I'm from New Hampshire, which has a very small black population (less than 2%
I believe). It was always awkward when girlfriend's parents would make a big
deal about "Oh my god you're dating a black man?" when they would tell their
parents my name.

Another story is when I was in college, I joined a fraternity. The only black
member at the time was disappointed, when we met he said, "Aw man, I thought
you were black!"

My last story also is from college. I moved into a dorm where I had a black
room mate named Jared. People would confuse him for me, and vice versa, a lot
if they hadn't met either of us, but needed something from us. Saying to me
"Is Tyrel around? Oh I thought you were Jared..." and the opposite to him I
presume.

Over all, I don't have many problems with my name, but I do wish it wasn't
people's first impression of me. I try to put my face as my avatar on
everything, hoping that people aren't discriminating against my name when they
do research on me, but that they discriminate for my abilities.

------
chengiz
So the school wanted diversity so they called him for an interview, but they
hired him even though he was white. Yeah I don't buy that.

~~~
jdmichal
Maybe he didn't interview in person? Not everyone feels the need to physically
meet someone before hiring them. What does it _really_ say about us, that we
so deeply feel the need to see someone before hiring them? It's not like their
credentials change with visual contact.

~~~
chengiz
Your statement is ironic considering the school's purported reason for taking
in his application.

------
galfarragem
I am not black but I also know what it is to be discriminated. Most of people
know it also, it is nearly impossible to belong always to the
dominant/majoritarian group.

I grew up in a low-income suburb. When I went to college I was under estimated
and segregated. The _poors_ were, for the first time in my life, a minority. I
really know how it feels. But I can also say that whinning about it _never_
made my situation better, almost always made it bitter. Some of the _rich_ ,
once we got to know eachother, included me in their activities. I believe that
this can happen in all majority/minority conflicts if both parts are open
minded.

The main problem, as I see it, is that majorities don't want to give in
anything, and minorities want majorities to give in everything.

------
laichzeit0
"In a high school soccer game I was called 'a white man with a [horrific
racial expletive deleted] name.'"

Horrific racial expletive. That seems a bit... excessive? Let's elevate the
horrificness of this word to the point where if someone utters it they get
fined or jailed. That should teach 'em.

People are so ultra-politically correct these days I'm too scared to open my
mouth for fear of offending someone, saying something sexist, racist, "white
male privileged", not fat-accepting enough, etc. It's becoming insufferable.

~~~
maxerickson
The placeholder was chosen in the context of a relatively personal, informal
group blog:

[http://thepoetryquestion.com/about/](http://thepoetryquestion.com/about/)

If you think your sexist, racist, white male privileged, fat shaming thoughts
are important to voice, I don't see why you would worry about them offending
someone.

The motions of political correctness can go too far, but the basic thought, to
consider what words might mean to someone else, is a reasonable thing to do if
a person wants to communicate effectively.

~~~
laichzeit0
This type of hyped up placeholder is _exactly_ an example of political
correctness gone too far. It's exaggeration. My argument is not even against
purposefully using words that are offense. It's about how there are so many
words that are deemed offensive today that I can't even keep track of what
they are.

For example, calling one of my own non-homosexual friends a "faggot" or "gay"
is offensive. Even though I'm not homophobic and personally find it to be a
funny, playful insult.

I may or may not be factually correct about this, but in general (I use the
word general here in the sense of more than 50%) of those offended seem to be
minority groups. I.e. homosexual, African Americans (this is easily to confirm
by census results in a country), Semitic groups, etc.

The issue seems to be whether we should give up the ideal of not offending
people as there exists no such fundamental right not to be offended.

~~~
likeclockwork
> For example, calling one of my own non-homosexual friends a "faggot" or
> "gay" is offensive. Even though I'm not homophobic and personally find it to
> be a funny, playful insult.

Um... if you don't have anything against homosexuality then why would you use
it as an insult? How is this logical? It shouldn't have anything to do with
"not offending people". The real question is "What are you actually
communicating?"

Casual use of slurs shows at least a certain amount of unthinking disdain for
others if not actual malice. Censoring referential or quoted uses of slurs may
be an over-correction but the intent is not to appear disdainful or malicious.

You can say whatever you want, forget about "political correctness" or
"offending someone", but expect people to respond to what you're actually
communicating (ignorance and disdain at best).

~~~
laichzeit0
Well, for instance, when I'm calling someone a faggot, I'm thinking about what
is typically called a "queen" in gay-lingo. Like an overly effeminate
homosexual. I happen to find their behaviour and mannerisms to be funny and I
have no problem with them whatsoever. Calling one of my friends a faggot is
funny to me because I'm drawing an analogy between their behaviour and
queenish behaviour.

The point is that I find it funny, for my own personal reasons. But someone
else may find it offensive, for their own personal reasons, however now my
freedom of speaking this way becomes limited because of the potential for
someone else to find it offensive.

Going back to the original post about the author inserting ".. [horrific
racial expletive deleted]" into post. I find this type of reaction to only
further the agenda of limiting people from speaking freely by falsely implying
that certain words may not be used because they are likely to offend. Whether
they offend or not should never be a criterion for limiting the use of a word.

------
jimbobimbo
That ringed a few bells...

Being an immigrant with both first and last names that people in US have hard
time to pronounce let alone spell, I'd never turn the trick "My parents
decided they wanted less traditional names for their children" on my children.
In fact, I'm seriously thinking of legally changing my own name to look more
American, because I'm tired of triple-checking my name spelling on each
document and credit card, and responding to calls from people who cannot
pronounce my name at all.

------
rayiner
My wife, also from Oregon interestingly enough, has an Irish first name
spelled in a "black" way (with a 'w' rather than a 'u'). Every now and then,
hilarity ensues when she meets someone in person who was obviously expecting
someone who looks different.

~~~
metamet
Especially if they were expecting a black... uomen.

------
viach
My english is far from perfect, but there are effectively 7 words, no?

~~~
adestefan
The contraction "I'm" is only one word.

------
galfarragem
I have also an uncommon name for my country/peer group so I understand how he
feels but don't take the easy path and make it just race related, it goes well
beyond it. Some names have stereotypes attached that makes them a potential
liability in your life (job applications, bullying, negative first opinion,
wasted time, etc).

If I had a dollar for each time I had to explain how to write my name during
my life, I would be rich by now. So many famous people have changed their
name, there must be a reason for it..

------
efa
Couldn't help but think of the Seinfeld episode -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsKpShq2X6s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsKpShq2X6s)

------
stefantalpalaru
> [horrific racial expletive deleted]

Nigga please... The only horrific things about a word coming straight from the
latin root for "black" are the linguistic segregation behind it and the fact
that this segregation is now willingly enforced by the minorities themselves.

~~~
rfrey
Etymology is irrelevant in emotionally charged discussions. Context matters.

~~~
stefantalpalaru
Etymology is always relevant in the analysis of natural languages. Emotions?
Not so much.

> Context matters.

It does. The context is a relatively progressive media organization that is
afraid to write certain words because they might interfere with the nation-
wide policy of linking their acceptable usage to the color of the speaker's
skin.

~~~
_delirium
In modern linguistics, etymology is given far less weight than it was in the
pre-scientific days of philology. So no, etymology is not "always" relevant;
arguments based on etymology are typically given weight only in historical
contexts (e.g. tracing language evolution, or lexical borrowings). They give
very little insight about present meaning, and especially not about
pragmatics.

