
Windows 10 S won't let you change the default browser or switch to Google search - azov
https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/2/15525654/microsoft-windows-10s-default-browser-microsoft-edge
======
kabdib
European browser-related fines in 10, 9, 8 . . .

We had a saying in Xbox that you didn't get to become a Microsoft VP until
you'd cost the company a billion dollars with some boneheaded mistake. (Data:
The Xbox 360's lack of a pad for its DVD drive, the Kin phone -- which was
actually a $2B mistake). I guess someone wants to be promoted.

~~~
ihuman
What do you mean by a pad for the 360's DVD drive?

~~~
infogulch
The 360 was notorious for scratching disks. [1]

[1]: [https://www.geekwire.com/2016/xbox-360-scratched-discs-
why-t...](https://www.geekwire.com/2016/xbox-360-scratched-discs-why-the-u-s-
supreme-court-will-hear-the-case-nine-years-later/)

~~~
sfRattan
My initial reaction was, "yeah, that was an awful D-Pad." Then I realized the
reference was to the disk drive. Oh, well... Two promotions, then, according
to the root comment's saying.

------
baldfat
I think this is why Valve and Gabe were so forceful in developing Steam OS.
This is the end fo the road for all outside businesses like Valve and other
elevator systems.

Microsoft has been doing so good community wise and I think this is the most
evil thing they could have done. They are trying to be a walled garden.

edit: deleted one word and spelling on one word

~~~
belltaco
It is exactly like ChromeOS, and focused on education as well and probably
won't sell as much as them anyway.

>Recent numbers from consulting firm Futuresource paint a similar picture,
with Google commanding 58 percent of U.S. K-12 schools. Windows is in second
with around 22 percent and the combined impact of MacOS and iOS are close
behind at 19 percent. It’s a rapidly shifting landscape. Three years earlier,
Apple’s products represented nearly half of devices being shipped to U.S.
classrooms

Can students install anything like Steam on Chromebooks or iPads without
jailbreaking them?

It feels like once people see 'Microsoft' in the headline they lose all sense
of perspective and automatically scream murder but Google and Apple get a
complete free pass to do whatever lockdown they want.

~~~
Shorel
This outrageous attack on general purpose computing doesn't become less
outrageous just because Google also does a similar attack.

~~~
baldfat
Chrome OS is not a general purpose computer. It is an OS that runs a Browser
and is advertised as such. Windows 10 S is Windows normally a general purpose
computer now limited for "ease of use and deployment."

~~~
belltaco
How is ChromeOS not a limited version of Gentoo that it's based on and locked
to Google's cloud for "ease of use and deployment"?

~~~
baldfat
The argument is General Computer. I argued that Chrome OS is not a general
computer operating system. People then down voted me and

> How is ChromeOS not a limited version of Gentoo that it's based on and
> locked to Google's cloud for "ease of use and deployment"?

I don't understand the statement regarding Chrome is advertised as a solution
for certain people but is not a general purpose computer?

Windows 10 S has some very capable general purpose computers that are limited.

~~~
scholia
There are several different versions of Windows including those for Home and
Pro users, upgrades to Enterprise and Education editions, a mobile version
that runs on ARM-based phones, an IoT version that runs on a Raspberry Pi, and
server versions.

If you cover the whole market from thumbdrives to server farms, you're
obviously going to make different versions to fit different usage scenarios.
People do that with Linux, too.

Windows 10S is just a new version of Windows 10 Pro that addresses certain
needs in the education market in particular.

If you don't want it, don't buy it. If you buy it and decide you don't like
it, you can upgrade it to Windows 10 Pro. No big deal.

It's frankly insane to have hissy fits about it destroying civilization as we
know it. It's not.

------
resoluteteeth
Windows S sort of makes sense in various ways:

* It can replace the free licensing for cheap tablets which had fairly extreme hardware restrictions so normal laptops couldn't use it. These restrictions probably had the unfortunate effect of giving the impression that Windows was unusable on tablets because these devices _had_ to have limited RAM to be eligible.

* Now, they can give free or cheap licenses to devices with any specs, but get the payment for a full version later if the users want it. This way they can compete with higher-end chromebooks.

* By preventing users who aren't tech savvy from installing junk that will clog up their system, they can actually give them a better experience.

* They can give developers yet another reason to put their apps in the app store, even if just using their new conversion tool. Maybe there's still hope that people will actually use the app store!

* Because the upgrade goes right to Pro, rather than Home, for $50, this actually isn't a bad deal for individuals who want Pro anyway. Currently I think that's actually more than a Home->Pro upgrade. I imagine they'll fix that, but even if either upgrade route is the same price, the OEM cost for the 10 S license should be cheaper or free so, it might be cheaper to buy a 10 S computer and upgrade.

Still, from a user's perspective, Microsoft locking down the OS and trying to
force people into the Windows store doesn't seem that reassuring, and if you
can't use WSL I probably wouldn't want to use 10 S anyway. I might buy one of
these laptops and install linux, though.

~~~
scholia
That's a decent, factual summary -- especially in the context of the ignorance
and bigotry shown in so many other comments here.

 _> Because the upgrade goes right to Pro, rather than Home, for $50, this
actually isn't a bad deal for individuals who want Pro anyway._

Yes. It's basically the Pro version of Windows because it needs to support the
corporate-style installation, maintenance and control features needed in the
education market (InTune etc).

The switch to the Pro version is free to education.

 _> Still, from a user's perspective, Microsoft locking down the OS and trying
to force people into the Windows store doesn't seem that reassuring_

It's very reassuring compared with the hazards of downloading Windows software
on the open web. I don't see a massive user revolt against the Apple, Google
and Amazon app stores, do you?

------
mattkevan
It's funny. Apple get a lot of (fairly justified) stick for their walled
garden approach – but if they launched a pricey laptop with a version of macOS
locked to the App Store, the Internet would collectively lose its mind.

~~~
LeoPanthera
Even iOS lets you change your search engine.

~~~
zbuttram
Apple also doesn't own a search engine though, I'm reasonably certain they
would have tried the same thing if they did.

~~~
bad_user
Google's Android allows for both changing the default browser, which can be
actual Firefox and the default search engine. It also allows users to enable
third party app stores.

This hasn't lessened their grip on the market at all, Android now dominates
the mobile scene and Google keeps tight control.

So I just don't get Apple and Microsoft.

~~~
ApolloFortyNine
What drives me crazy is they still have to deal with anti-trust investigations
in the EU because they require that some apps at least be on the device to
begin with. The user can do whatever they want afterwards. The user can even
install there own app store.

Meanwhile here's Apple, the only apps that can be installed have to come from
the App store (where Apple gets their 30% cut).

~~~
kbwt
It's because the only accepted way to distribute software for Android is
through the Google Play store, outside of China.

Many companies even distribute their internal tools over the Play store. You
can't expect normal users to go find some arcane setting and accept security
warnings in order to enable standalone APK installation. Incidentally, the
option is hidden in completely different submenus depending on Android version
and customizations by the manufacturer.

The developer agreement for the Play store even comes with an "anti-
competition clause," explicitly forbidding anyone from distributing software
that could compete with Google's app distribution business. Unless you do it
outside the Play store, in which case you have yourself a bit of a chicken-
and-egg problem.

~~~
ApolloFortyNine
Except there are other ways. With Apple, there are no ways, yet the antitrust
case the EU is trying to build is against Google, not Apple.

If you try to install an app without unknown sources, you receive a
notification telling you where to turn enable installation, if you desire.
It's not nearly as complicated as you're making it out to be. As for the
security warnings, it is a security risk to install apps from unknown
publishers. It's extremely similar to what Microsoft does when you try to
install an unknown exe.

------
oblio
This is stupid. Users will get a crippled default version. They will notice,
cause they're not blind, and this will backfire.

I'm not talking about techies here, but about plain ol' Joes.

It's a bad business call.

~~~
pritambaral
> cause they're not blind, and this will backfire.

Or they will just pay the $50 and get full Windows 10? I can't say if it's a
smart business decision, but at least they left a way out.

~~~
zeven7
Pay $50 for the privilege to use Google? Nobody's going to do that. They're
just going to be mad and tell everyone it makes them use Bing.

~~~
oblio
The average Joe might not even notice that he's not searching with Google.

However, he will notice that his Windows can't run Steam and his games on
Steam and his collection of Win32 applications ;)

------
Keyframe
If we pretend Windows 10 S doesn't exist and the machines cost $50 more - it's
a sweet direction.

Windows S / Windows Store, Android and ChromeOS / Google Play Store, iOS / App
Store - those are comparisons.. and honestly, I don't care about either of
those. Maybe Android.

I've learned from WP and its store and platform's and store's extreme failure
not to trust Microsoft to do it right anytime soon. Windows Store was (is
still?) littered with crap. I also don't trust Microsoft on market delivery
considering I got in touch with their online chat support and asked where I
can buy Surface Studio in EU. Answer was that they don't sell it in Europe.
Nice. Thanks and bye. Kind of like with Razer. My money is off the table for
you guys.

~~~
pfranz
The problem is that friends and family will just buy whatever is cheapest.
Then they're always bugging you because they ran out of space because Apple
was still selling 16GB phones in 2016.

~~~
Keyframe
They don't bug you beforehand with 'should I buy this'?

~~~
drspacemonkey
They bug me with that, then they ignore what I say. I've determined that when
people ask me "should I buy this?", they're not looking for my opinion -
they're looking for validation that they are a crafty consumer.

------
onedognight
Does ChromeOS allow you to not use Chrome?

~~~
mattnewton
It does let you use Bing and office 365.

~~~
mirsadm
That wasn't the question. Can you run Firefox on Chrome OS?

~~~
icebraining
Yes, actually :)

[http://www.techrepublic.com/article/4-alternatives-to-the-
ch...](http://www.techrepublic.com/article/4-alternatives-to-the-chrome-
browser-on-chrome-os/)

------
protomyth
If all they really cared about was security, they would allow other reputable
stores (e.g. Steam) to be installed by the person administering the machines.
If they had allowed be to setup a "store" on a Windows Server for our custom
software required by grants and the government for various things then I would
have ordered quite a few Windows 10 S machines in place of some of our normal
orders.

~~~
scholia
How hard would it be to convert your custom software to UWP apps that could be
deployed from the Windows Store?

~~~
protomyth
Pretty much impossible for me to do as the software is 3rd party. Heck, one
still needs to run on Windows 2008 and another just stopped requiring IE6.

[edit]my own programs are macOS and iOS - so no experience on Windows
programming in 10 years[/edit]

~~~
scholia
So many US schools use Apple products and/or Chromebooks and/or Android, I
would have thought that approach was already unsustainable. It can hardly be
essential software, can it?

~~~
protomyth
We are fine with Apple (enterprise deployment of custom stuff is a known
scenario). I would expect a lot of schools wouldn't have a Chromebook
problem[1] given elementary schools are different beasts than BIE schools or
colleges. We have some additional software because of agreements related to
text books and training videos plus specific contractor provided software for
grants.

1) well except for one they might not be aware of
[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/11/guide-chromebook-
priva...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/11/guide-chromebook-privacy-
settings-students)

------
oldgun
Is it going to be like the Internet Explorer anti-trust lawsuit all over
again? Just when I think MS is on its way to becoming a much cooler company
than the old one that locks down users and deprives them of freedom.

It's good ole M$.

~~~
snupples
It wouldn't even be THAT bad (except maybe in principle) if Bing wasn't the
worst search engine and Edge wasn't the worst browser. It's like they want
their customers to suffer.

------
TheRealDunkirk
Isn't "unlocking" Windows 10 S to Pro for $50 like gaming companies shipping
DLC with their product, and requiring you to unlock it with a code? Don't "we"
hate that?

Also, how can S purport to be faster when it's apparently 10 Pro sitting on
the disk? Are there background services that don't get started until it's
unlocked?

~~~
scholia
That's an interesting question. Windows 10 Pro is running two systems all the
time: Win32 and Windows Runtime.

UWP apps run in sandboxes under Windows Runtime, not in Win32.

Presumably there are some benefits from this, but it depends how many parts of
Windows itself use Win32. For example, the new Settings app runs in Windows
Runtime but it still hands some things off to the old Control Panel, which is
a Win32 program.

I'd assume the eventual goal is to move everything to Windows Runtime, leaving
Win32 to wither and eventually die, at least in the consumer market. I suspect
enterprises are too slow to change for that to happen in business market.

Bear in mind that UWP apps will run very happily on the ARM-based Windows
laptops that will arrive late this year, whereas Win32 programs will use a
Rosetta-type emulation.

------
bitmapbrother
Incidentally, has anyone tried to change the default search engine in MS Edge?
They make it extremely difficult to the novice user so much so I wonder if
they just give up in frustration. Edge doesn't provide you with a default list
of search engines like the major browsers do. Instead you're supposed to
navigate to the search engine web page and then drill down to ADVANCED
settings and make the search engine web page you're on the default search
engine. I wonder how many psychologists they employed to come up with this
anti user experience behavior in order to easily prevent the user from simply
changing the search engine to what they really want.

Additionally, the option to change search engines in Chrome is one click away
in Settings. With Edge you need to drill down to Advanced Settings just to
change the search engine.

------
joe_the_user
"Actually, every ring-builder aims for a one-ring. Thwarted once, do they
change their attitude? Oh, they learn their lessons with their failures (which
they think of as 'near successes'). But what they learn is not what you'd like
to imagine"

~~~
erikpukinskis
What is this a quote from?

~~~
joe_the_user
No source, just quotes to give the feeling of fable.

IE, What Gandalf or Obi Wan perhaps should have said.

------
type0
What does S stands for really? Is it service? If so then finally MS
recognizing that they were pushing OS as a service with Windows 10 all along,
it must have been their plan from the beginning.

~~~
LeoPanthera
Microsoft seemed to imply that it was "Streamlined" but I don't think it's
official.

------
anotheryou
Where they not at some point forced to allow alternative default browsers or
something? (I might be wrong)

------
bitmapbrother
I wonder where all of the "New Microsoft" supporters are? This is just
Microsoft being Microsoft. They never changed, but I'm sure they'd like you to
think they have.

Not allowing a user to switch to another search engine is nefarious and
insidious. But then, this is the old Microsoft after all.

------
thr0waway1239
And just like that, they doubled the marketshare of Bing from 0.0003% to
0.0006%.

~~~
zuron7
Well, reports suggest Bing is more in the range of ~20% market share. Quite
commendable.

------
bitmapbrother
The other browsers should respond by removing Bing as a search engine
provider.

------
kyriakos
how is this different than iOS being stuck to safari ?

------
arcosdev
So they don't want to sell any of these?

------
lawl
Say hello to the new microsoft, exactly the same as old microsoft.

~~~
ksk
I'd rephrase that to 'exactly the same as new Google/Apple'

All of today's computing platforms come with shiny shackles. I guess MS
doesn't want to miss out on that.

~~~
lawl
A) "But mom, all my friends are doing it too" is s pretty bad excuse.

B) I'm having no troubles setting up firefox as my default browser with
whatever search engine I want for all apps on android.

~~~
ksk
I'd say its more like mom telling billy to go do what his buddies are doing
since its making them mad cash.

------
CerealCooler
Microsoft at its best. Or rather, at its usual.

------
amaks
Welcome to the good ole Microsoft.

------
milge
I've been slow upgrading my Windows over the years. I stuck with XP Pro SP2
for a very long time. I wish I could still use it. Now I'm on Win7 and
probably will be for awhile. It seems every other Windows version sucks. I'll
let Microsoft try out their idiot moves while I stick with more mature
releases.

------
tsomctl
Apparently, their lawyers forgot about this small lawsuit:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp).

~~~
belltaco
This a new OS alike ChromeOS. The monopoly rules don't apply because the
previous monopoly stemmed from everyone having to run Win32 apps. This OS
can't even run Win32 apps, but only sandboxed apps(to protect against
malware).

Do iOS or ChromeOS even support installing a different browser without
jailbreaking? How does a new OS with 0% share fall afoul of anti-trust laws?

Is Microsoft prohibited forever from making something like iOS or ChromeOS
while their competitors do whatever lockdown they want with their platforms?

What's IE's and Bing's marketshare anyway? Is it 98% like Windows was in that
case you're referring to?

~~~
makomk
As I understand it, this OS can run Win32 apps - but they have to be packaged
for and bought from the Windows Store, with Microsoft taking a cut. See for
example [https://arstechnica.co.uk/information-
technology/2017/05/win...](https://arstechnica.co.uk/information-
technology/2017/05/windows-10-s-details/) Microsoft created a new
infrastructure so that Win32 apps could be packaged for the Store just to make
this possible.

