
London Is Still Paying Rent to the Queen on a Property Leased in 1211 - AJRF
http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/london-is-still-paying-rent-to-the-queen-on-a-property-leased-in-1211
======
caboteria
This sort of thing happens in the US, too, at least in the Northeast corner of
it. The land that my house sits on is owned by the Unitarian Universalist
church down the street, and each year I owe them $4 or the equivalent in
livestock or firewood. To date I've always found it easiest to mail them a
check but someday if I'm feeling grumpy maybe I'll give them a duckling.

~~~
pavel_lishin
How did you come to own a house that's built on land you don't own? And aren't
you worried about what may happen in the future?

~~~
awqrre
Nobody really owns the land their house is built on in the USA... stop paying
your property taxes (rent) and you'll see who owns it.

~~~
GavinMcG
This is such a tired claim. Every civilization ever has been built under the
aegis of, if no one else, each other.

Of course you own it. The question is what "ownership" means. Ownership of a
property is best defined by delineating the specific rights that you can
exercise with respect to it. You may bar people from entering it. You might
not be able to bar the government from entering it or making certain uses of
it. There's a good chance you can't keep people from being underneath your
house and extracting valuable minerals, if they're far enough down. Your
rights don't extend very far above the earth.

But you knew all that when you made the purchase.

~~~
awqrre
> But you knew all that when you made the purchase.

and you didn't have any other options.

~~~
GavinMcG
There's this underlying assumption that people seem to have that they have an
absolute right to have absolute control over some piece of land. I'm really
confused where that comes from. Was it that way in the past? I suppose, in
various places and eras. But far more common was that you had enough power to
deter the powerful around you, and you were for all intents and purposes a
state. I can understand wanting to be a state, but you don't have a right to
be one.

------
pjc50
Likewise France's oldest debt: [https://modeledbehavior.com/2010/01/31/the-
worlds-oldest-exi...](https://modeledbehavior.com/2010/01/31/the-worlds-
oldest-existing-government-debt/)

The UK has never been through a "year zero" forcible reconstitution, so its
constitutional and administrative arrangements are full of little adhoc
anomalies (the various islands like Sark and Man, the City, "County" Durham,
chancel repair liability, and so on). Mostly these are a fine and picturesque
addition to the texture of the nation. There's certainly no real appetite to
"fix" things, although Scotland managed to abolish the feudal system
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_Feudal_Tenure_etc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_Feudal_Tenure_etc._\(Scotland\)_Act_2000))

However, this means that the sort of internal tensions which in the US get
nailed to the mast of the constitution instead float around, un-crystallized.
Until now, when the "brexit" vote has triggered a cascade of constitutional
crises: is parliamentary consent required to leave the EU? How does this
affect the Good Friday Agreement? What about Scotland? What exactly is the
constitutional status of the Human Rights Act and why do the conservatives
keep trying to abolish it? And so on.

~~~
Someone
There also a bond from a Dutch water board
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_board_(Netherlands)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_board_\(Netherlands\)))
issued in 1648 that still pays interest:
[http://news.yale.edu/2015/09/22/living-artifact-dutch-
golden...](http://news.yale.edu/2015/09/22/living-artifact-dutch-golden-age-
yale-s-367-year-old-water-bond-still-pays-interest)

------
osullivj
The article refers to "London", but likely that means what is now the City of
London, just one of 32 boroughs of Greater London. Few live in the City of
London ("the City") these days, it's mostly business and finance.

~~~
anexprogrammer
The City is fascinating in the UK context, it really is more like a different
country. It's strangely archaic being more of the 1200s than the 21st century.
It can alter its own constitution, still permits business voting long
abolished in the rest of the UK, and avoided much of the modernisation and
reform elsewhere.

There's now only about 10,000 residents - most of whom are in a single estate
- the Barbican. Business votes now far exceed individuals.

That doesn't touch on freemen, livery companies, and all the other archaic
complexity.

Secret City covers a lot of it, but the film is as much about the financial
crisis.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London)

~~~
fludlight
In what elections do businesses vote? Local or national? Could one set up a
thousand shell companies and get a thousand votes?

~~~
vidarh
Elections for the Common Council of the City of London Corporation. So local
only.

Votes are provided based on corporation size, so just setting up shell
companies won't work.

------
kasey_junk
One thing I wasn't sure of after reading the article, are the objects then
given back to the city after the ceremony or do they need to provide more
objects the next year.

The former seems implied from the age of the items, but that doesn't seem like
rent to me.

~~~
pmyteh
They are indeed returned after the ceremony. I suppose it helps keep the
tradition without the tedium of trying to source another six oversized
horseshoes every year. And the building of a pointless stock of blunt
agricultural tools somewhere in Buckingham Palace too, I guess.

~~~
khedoros1
I was wondering about it as I read, too. I pictured a long hallway lined with
800-odd sets of items, maybe with a plaque here and there to provide context
of what was happening in the country at that time.

------
smcl
All these weird antiquated ceremonies and traditions remind me of Doug
Stanhope's take on the UK still having a monarchy @
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctOHo4RzZEc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctOHo4RzZEc)
\- tiny quote: "for gods sake is this a country or a renaissance festival,
what kind of Dungeons and Dragons bullshit is that?"

~~~
mseebach
And yet, while we're getting ready to votes for the lesser evil of Kang and
Kodos, the Queen is well into her seventh decade on the throne, still enjoying
approval ratings that democratic politicians can only dream about.

[https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/09/08/monarchy-here-
stay/](https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/09/08/monarchy-here-stay/)

~~~
vidarh
It's rather easier to enjoy a high approval rating when what you need to do to
maintain it is to not express any opinions and avoid taking any decisions and
give sufficiently magnanimous answers to a few unimportant questions here and
there, and not being caught doing anything offensive.

~~~
trhway
delegation done right.

------
rwmj
Stratfield Saye House is rented from the Queen too, for the price of one silk
flag per year. Although this has only been going on for a mere 200 years.
[http://royalcentral.co.uk/blogs/insight/annual-waterloo-
cere...](http://royalcentral.co.uk/blogs/insight/annual-waterloo-ceremony-
duke-of-wellington-pays-his-rent-2-32295)

------
unkeptbarista
There is a urban fantasy novel by Mike Sheldon based on the two oldest quit
rents mentioned in this article.

[http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6673065-sixty-one-
nails](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6673065-sixty-one-nails)

~~~
pacaro
Ha! This was my first thought too! An enjoyable read, the protagonist becomes
progressively less sympathetic through the series

------
toxican
I'm torn between finding these kinds of things completely ridiculous and
appreciating keeping old traditions alive. There's just something neat about
these kinds of things. Hilariously pointless, but neat.

~~~
int_19h
It's also symbolic, representing the abstract notion of a stable government in
a real and tangible way. Such symbols can be useful.

------
lisper
"But each fall, usually in October, the city and the crown perform the same
exchange, for no particular reason other than that they always have."

It's tempting to laugh at this silliness, but 1000 years from now coders will
still be putting the open curly brace in C code on a separate line for no
particular reason other than that they always have.

~~~
lostcolony
Reminds me of that bit in The Last Continent -

They'd never stopped, or even thought of stopping. You couldn't stop
Tradition. You could only add to it. The three men reached the shadows by the
main gate, almost blotted out in the whirling snow. The bledlow on duty was
waiting for them. 'Halt! Who Goes There?' he shouted. McAbre saluted. 'The
Archchancellor's Keys!'

'Pass, The Archchancellor's Keys!'

The Head Bledlow took a step forward, extended both arms in front of him with
his palms bent back towards him, and patted his chest at the place where some
bledlow long buried had once had two breast pockets. Pat, pat. Then he
extended his arms by his sides and stiffly patted the sides of his jacket.
Pat, pat. 'Damn! Could Have Sworn I Had Them A Moment Ago!' he bellowed,
enunciating each word with a sort of bulldog carefulness. The gatekeeper
saluted. McAbre saluted. 'Have You Looked In All Your Pockets?' McAbre
saluted. The gatekeeper saluted. A small pyramid of snow was building up on
his bowler hat. 'I Think I Must Have Left Them On The Dresser. It's Always The
Same, Isn't It?'

'You Should Remember Where You Put Them Down.!'

'Hang On, Perhaps They're In My Other Jacket!' The young bledlow who was this
week's Keeper of the Other Jacket stepped forward. Each man saluted the other
two. The youngest cleared his throat and managed to say: 'No, I Looked In . .
. There This . . . Morning!' McAbre gave him a slight nod to acknowledge a
difficult job done well, and patted his pockets again. 'Hold On, Stone The
Crows, They Were In This Pocket After All! What A Muggins I Am!'

'Don't Worry, I Do The Same Myself!'

'Is My Face Red! Forget My Own Head Next!' Somewhere in the darkness a window
creaked up. 'Er, excuse me, gentlemen—'

'Here's The Keys, Then!' said McAbre, raising his voice. 'Much Obliged!'

'I wonder if you could—' the querulous voice went on, apologizing for even
thinking of complaining. 'All Safe And Secure!' shouted the gatekeeper,
handing the keys back. '—perhaps keep it down a little—'

'Gods Bless All Present!' screamed McAbre, veins standing out on his thick
crimson neck. 'Careful Where You Put Them This Time. Ha! Ha! Ha!'

'Ho! Ho! Ho!' yelled McAbre, beside himself with fury.

------
DannyB2
Isn't 1211 four hundred years before the King James bible?

~~~
pizzapill
Odd thing to recognize but you are right King James Bible is from 1611.

------
tzs
> a knife, an axe, six oversized horseshoes, and 61 nails

It looks like, based on the photo, that the horseshoes take 10 nails each, so
that could why they are accompanied by 60 nails.

So why 61? A spare?

~~~
awesomebob
"For want of a nail the shoe was lost..."

------
etqwzutewzu
More impressive to me is the fact that Britain is still paying interest on a
debt from 1720 (due to South Sea Bubble krach)

[http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/28/world/that-debt-
from-1720-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/28/world/that-debt-
from-1720-britains-payment-is-coming.html)

~~~
thiviost
In Germany there is still payments going on which date back to the German
mediatization because of compensations for exproriated property or liabilities
on the propriety which switched the owner to some other princes and in turn
now the state.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mediatization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mediatization)

------
B1FF_PSUVM
Considering that since then some three or four kings/dynasties have been
rather unceremoniously disposed of ... looks like a bit of a formality, to rub
it in.

I mean, you execute/exile/etc the person you owe the debt to, and keep paying
it to the one you pick to replace him in the job of president - er, I mean,
king?

------
johan_larson
I'm just waiting for someone to make use of an obscure provision to settle a
dispute through Trial by Combat.

~~~
poshli
trial by combat was formerly abolished by Parliament in 1819

~~~
nicky0
Formally?

------
dogma1138
The US is still paying for Gitmo, they also might still be paying for Alaska
:P

------
premium-concern
That's what "rent" means.

