
The Pirate Party is now measured as the biggest political party in Iceland - Tsiolkovsky
http://www.visir.is/the-pirate-party-is-now-measured-as-the-biggest-party-in-iceland/article/2015150318848
======
gislifb
So a little background, this looks like backlash from a few very controversial
decisions the government has made recently and recent corruption allegations.

The biggest one being; Stopping the nations talks with the EU and a few days
ago withdrawing* the application without discussing it in the parliament and
putting it to a national vote as both parties promised would be done before
the elections.

This backlash agains the 'old block' and what is called 'traditional politics'
started when comedians, artists and musicians (among others) started the
'Besti flokkurinn' (Best Party) and won the elections for city council in
Reykjavík ?five? years ago.

People saw that new people and new parties could do a better job then those
'professional' politicians and I think the Pirate Party is riding on that wave
and every controversial decision and corruption allegations just strengthens
people's believes that politics must change. It won't happen in 2 years or 6
years but we might start to see some big changes in 10 years time!

*The foreign minister wrote a letter to the EU to withdraw the application but the EU don't take it as a withdrawal. It's very strange.

~~~
yodsanklai
> This backlash agains the 'old block' and what is called 'traditional
> politics'

It's great that Islanders express their dissatisfaction by reporting their
votes on "the pirate party" instead of extreme right parties as we see it
happening in some European countries.

~~~
gislifb
Well I'm afraid that we will see a extreme right party in the next elections
and I wouldn't be surprised if they got 1 seat in parliament. The progress
party made some vague statements which were interpreted (and rightly so) as
islamophobic in the last city council elections and that brought them two
seats in the council. Before they made those statements they were looking at
no seats so there definitely are people that will vote for extreme right
ideals.

~~~
PeterisP
Well, but that result can be considered a good thing - okay, you have a block
of voters with opinions that you despise; but now instead of being outside the
estabilishment they now have a seat or two to voice their concerns, but
everyone knows exactly how small that minority is and the mainstream parties
can finally start ignoring that block of voters since they'll vote for that
extreme right party anyways.

------
amelius
This is very interesting. I hope they can implement some of their ideas in the
areas of an online democracy, where voting becomes more informed, and
decisions more transparent [1,2]

Iceland could be the first country with a "liquid democracy" [2]

[1] [http://liquidfeedback.org/](http://liquidfeedback.org/)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg0_Vhldz-8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg0_Vhldz-8)

~~~
undefined0
With online democracy, would this make it extremely easy for NSA/GCHQ to
manipulate the votes? GCHQ is already known to manipulate online voting and
mass install malware.

~~~
bjelkeman-again
Do you have a link to that? Would be interested in reading about online vote
manipulation.

~~~
undefined0
I don't have the exact link, look through firstlook.org's documents. There was
a leaked slideshow about it. As to avoid confusion, it's worth noting that it
was social media vote manipulation, not general election manipulation.

I think it's in the same document as the "Mass propaganda" / "Discredit an
company/individual" slides.

------
1ris
Meanwhile in Germany the pirate party is once again completely irrelevant.
Thanks to the debate culture of mailing lists and twitter, fractionism, us-vs-
them thinking and the refusal to throw trolls/idiots out of the party. And a
hole lot of feminism drama helped.

~~~
creshal
The German pirate party is in the peculiar spot where communists, nazis,
feminists, men's rights activists, liberals and conservatives are _all_
convinced they're too radical.

That does not leave many potential voters.

~~~
1ris
No, it's the exact opposite. It's a place where all these are welcome. Denie
the holocaust, fine you can stay in the party. On the left side, celebrate war
crimes? Fine. Which does not leave any potential for voters either.

~~~
ExpiredLink
Denying the holocaust is - literally - a crime in Germany and other European
countries.

~~~
1ris
Yes. Stresses the point it was almost impossbile to get thrown out. IMO the
failure of the pirate party was the result of the refusal to excude anybody.
Absolutely no standard of decency or adherence to any kind of policy or
political agenda was required. For Mailinglist or webforums that works quite
well. But not for a political party, these require some kind of shared values.
Not feeding the trolls is pointless if the newspapers are feeding them.

------
roymurdock
I wonder if a "transparency" or "anti-corruption" party would be successful in
the U.S. I'm writing a thesis now that delves pretty heavily into the
financial crisis of 2008 and the level of carelessness, corruption, and
trickery on the part of the captains of finance and the leaders of this
country is appalling and disheartening.

The thing that really gets me though is that, as a 22 year old, I (and all the
other members of my generation) are inheriting the current system with no
input on how we got to the point we are at now and little to no say on how it
works. I wonder if we will be able to fix things.

~~~
zanny
> party would be successful in the U.S

No party besides the democrat or republican party will be successful in the US
because first past the post is a fundamentally broken model of democracy that
always reduces into a base case of two parties. Combine that with the power of
money in politics and gerrymandering and there is no way to fathom competition
at the federal level.

> is appalling and disheartening.

For the most part American voters have demonstrated a lack of care for the
aftermath of the financial crisis, given how they brought back a Republican
majority in congress only four years after realizing how well that worked in
the decade prior.

Which is mostly disingenuous, given how politicians in America are all
consistently cut from the same cloth and serving the same (private) interests.

> are inheriting the current system

You actually aren't inheriting anything. Youth unemployment at an all time
high, average income of bachelors graduates being around 26k a year, the
lowest rates of property ownership in half a century, wealth concentration as
high as the roaring twenties. The aging with power and money are holding onto
it to their grave, and then only their blessed decedents will inherit the
means of production. There is no mechanism to disseminate concentrated wealth
back into the masses, especially the youth, anymore. Economics used to promote
that, and policy used to enable that, but as we approach post-scarcity both
have been sabotaged by generations that want to maintain control and power
perpetually.

~~~
NoMoreNicksLeft
> because first past the post is a fundamentally broken model of democracy
> that always reduces into a base case of two parties

You've ran the experiment so many times that you know that it's "always"?

~~~
majuscule
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-
post_voting#Tac...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-
post_voting#Tactical_voting)

------
alexc05
This is incredibly interesting. I wonder what their support was in the last
election? Or how long it is until the next election.

I know very little about Iceland's political system but suspect some
translation problems with the language in that article.

Biggest would really only apply to seats won, while this reads to me as being
'most popular'

Still, really interesting.

I also suspect that the 'shun corruption' just means they havent been caught
yet.

~~~
Beltiras
> I also suspect that the 'shun corruption' just means they havent been caught
> yet.

No, they are actually quite decent people. Birgitta has been an advocate of
term limits and intends to not run again (even if term limits are not
imposed). She is an artist and has been a consistent defender of the average
citizen. Jón Þór is in his first term and has decided to step down mid-term to
allow his replacement time to acclimate to Parliament before the next election
(which is in 2017, barring public uprising). Helgi Hrafn has indicated he
intends not to run again. All of them are passionate about the outcome of the
next election and intend to give support to the running candidates.

Corruption of the sort you see in USA does not happen as much in Alþingi, it's
more nepotism by the executive (parliamentary rule, which is problematic) than
blatant bribery by funding campaigns.

Grassroots for the Pirates is very active and these public servants, truly are
serving the public, not the party.

~~~
creshal
> No, they are actually quite decent people.

For now. They wouldn't be the first people to be corrupted by power.

~~~
Beltiras
I think you aren't reading what I wrote. Let me rephrase: When the party is
peaking and could be on the cusp of being one of the majority parties, the
elected officials are turning the reins over to other people. This is as
antithetical to institutional corruption as is possible.

~~~
PeterisP
If the good people turn the reins over to other people, then it's a cycle that
goes on happily until the reins have been passed over to people who'll do
anything to stay in power - it's nice but not sustainable in the long term.

------
kyledrake
I have had the privilege of meeting many of the people in the Icelandic pirate
party. They are great people, have very solid ideas for improving internet law
in Iceland where there are still some big issues that need reform, and I
congratulate them for their success in gaining support of their fellow viking
brethren.

------
llSourcell
I think the biggest catalyst for government reform in the internet era would
be bringing voting online.

I'm 23 years old. My generation doesn't have the time or patience to wait in
line to vote and fill out legal documents. We're used to apps that let us
order delivery and message friends in a button tap.

The reason big money keeps winning is because our generation doesn't vote
enough. If we make local and federal voting deadlines as simple as phone
notifications, we're going to start seeing a a huge array of intelligent
decisions injected into the political system.

The Pirate Party offers liquid democracy through online voting. I'm all for
it, I hope Iceland sets an example for the rest of the world.

~~~
mikk14
I think you have a very idealistic and naive opinion about your generation
(I'm 30 years old, I don't know if that makes it my generation too). Liquid
democracy might increase vote turnout, which is good anyway, but in my opinion
that will have little impact on the rule of "big money". You have yourself as
frame of reference, but try to think about the average 23 years old (and no,
very likely your immediate circle of friends does not count very much as the
average). But even if it does replace the "big money" rule, it might not be
for the good. I cannot find a reference right now, but I seem to remember that
young people place usually at the extreme right and left parts of the
political spectrum.

~~~
llSourcell
Do you think President Obama is naive and idealistic as well? He's started to
argue for the same. ([http://www.infowars.com/obama-calls-for-mandatory-
voting/](http://www.infowars.com/obama-calls-for-mandatory-voting/)) Since his
term is nearing its end, he's becoming more fearless in talking about the
influence of big money in politics and how making it easier to vote would
greatly reduce its influence.

And yes, you are in my generation (Y). Please enlighten me in ways big money
influences politics that cannot possibly be stopped by the democratic process.

~~~
mikk14
I do not understand what is the mechanism that equates "more people voting"
with "less money influence". You have done little to explain it, only using an
argument from authority ("An important man said it, therefore it's true").

"Big money" isn't directly buying votes. Increasing the number of votes
doesn't make an election "more expensive" to buy. If you have only three
candidates, to buy out their loyalty you need the same amount of money,
regardless if you have one million of people voting for them or ten.

Direct democracy renders the process even worse. People cannot be fully
informed about all topics at all times - I hope you realize how
uncontroversial this opinion is. So they'll just find the information that is
easiest to find and digest and be influenced by it. If you have enough money,
you can be the easiest source of information in the topic you care.

~~~
llSourcell
The idea of liquid democracy is appealing because the issues are all opt-in.
If there is a particular topic you feel passionate about, say funding stem-
cell research, you can choose to vote on it. That + more votes makes it harder
for special interest groups to influence outcomes.

------
mpasternacki
Huh. Doesn't the fact that Pirate Party's and Independence Party's results are
well within each other's confidence intervals make it a tie?

------
higherpurpose
It's a shame the one in Germany blew it because of internal conflict. It
would've probably reached 15 percent by now, too.

~~~
ivoras
No, the wouldn't. As an ex PP-er (HR), i can say that the major problem in the
vast majority of the PPs are that they are literally "too liberal." The
differences in how individual members perceive what PP is and should be, are
so great that they tear the party apart. From what I've seen (and I've met
them), PP-IS is one of the rare which has managed to achieve _enough_
homogeneity of core members which is needed for practical work and progress.

tl;dr: You can't have an organisation where everyone wants to do things
differently.

~~~
Vektorweg
I think that diversity wouldn't be the problem, when liquid feedback would
work. But communication in the PP is really slow relative to their tech based
democratic goals. The process to get a clear statement is too slow.

~~~
ivoras
Can there be a clear statement in a group whose members are different enough
that it clearly doesn't have a common one?

Electronic democracy solves precisely nothing in practice because democracy is
not about technology and mathematics, it's about the people.

What if you have a 50%+1 majority on your vote, and the other 50%-1 of the
people are so actively against it and bitter that there is no way they will
accept the result of the vote, let even cooperate? And by "50%+1" I don't mean
11 votes vs 10 votes in your library group, I mean like 100,000 votes for one
side and 99,999 votes for the other. Can you seriously consider that the first
side won the vote? Can you seriously do anything practical with 50%-1 members
opposing you?

 _That_ is what was (and I think still is) happening in PP parties.

And on top of that there's all the usual issue of large-ish scale politics,
with blocks forming, with small but screamingly loud minorities, etc. etc.
which now, because of the digital medium each require attention. Do you wish
to participate in a forum where you MUST, by the way of the forum's statutes,
listen even to the most vitriolic, uneducated, screaming lunatic trolls, and
be expected that you deal with those situations politely with "Thank you for
your input. if 50% of the members agree with your idea to make tin-foil-hats
mandatory, and declare war on Kazakhstan, we will."? Even if you are, a couple
of years of that happening every single day will probably erode that attitude.
Hence, no "sane" members, hence no votes.

~~~
Vektorweg
Actually, to get something in german's pirate party program, there must be a
66% majority.

Hm. I never heard of blocks in the pirate party. Luckily, it seems that the
core pirates are too liberal for that. Things could go wrong, but then we
simply start a new party.

And yes, we must listen to everyone. Whatever troll it might be. You must
listen them to tell them otherwise and to learn from them. It might be the
only way a democracy can function well.

------
jklinger410
Iceland's Population: 323,002

------
peter303
One platform parties are pretty ineffective inside the USA. The only I could
think of getting any significant legislation passed are the anti-abortion
people. The anti-deficit people and anti-war people have large following, but
little traction.

------
mikk14
I don't have a good knowledge about Iceland situation, but I'm a bit
negatively biased against these "protest parties". I'm from Italy and I can
see what kind of horrible effect Grillo's party is having on the political
thinking of the average Italian. Maybe this is different, but I will need to
see results in its fight against the traditional ruling class before changing
my mind. In Italy, so far, there aren't.

~~~
belorn
Protest party? Under what definition are you labeling the Pirate Party as
such? The core principles of the pirate party is Civil rights, with the
implication from living in a information society.

The fight against the Bourgeoisie, while relevant for some, is not the focus
of this party.

~~~
mikk14
I got the idea from the top comment [1] (in a hindsight, I should actually
have replied to it instead of starting the new comment thread).

Particularly this part:

> This backlash agains the 'old block' and what is called 'traditional
> politics' started when comedians, artists and musicians (among others)
> started the 'Besti flokkurinn' (Best Party) and won the elections for city
> council in Reykjavík ?five? years ago.

I am aware of the origin of the label at the international level, but it
looked to me that in this particular case the origin dynamics were closer to
Grillo's.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9231591](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9231591)

------
pakled_engineer
What I like about the PP is p2p power not vertical power structures. No more
falsely heroic leaders acting as a CEO of the country or party whips to
enforce the leader's decisions by threatening to backbench party dissenters
and throwing away the entire idea of representative democracy by replacing it
with a command structure.

------
denysonique
Where can their political programme be found? (in English)

~~~
masklinn
On the party's website seems like a good bet:
[http://www.piratar.is/?lang=en](http://www.piratar.is/?lang=en)

~~~
zby
By the way - here are links to programs/statutes/manifests of many other
Pirate Parties:
[http://wiki.pirateint.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_Statutes_and_Pol...](http://wiki.pirateint.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_Statutes_and_Policies)

------
mc_hammer
well, this is great news, im not sure weve had a real government since jfk
tho. i dont think afghans were insurgants anymore, i think we were killing
residents, and im really sad.

