
Ask HN: What's the best way for a foreigner to improve English to a great level? - simonebrunozzi
My wife and I are Italian, and we live in San Francisco. She&#x27;s trying to find a job but feels stuck because her English is not good enough (I think she&#x27;s at an acceptable level, but clearly she can&#x27;t speak or listen as good as a mother tongue). She&#x27;s looking for advice on what&#x27;s the best way to dramatically improve it in 4 months, 25 hours a week or so. Thanks!
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Pitarou
As a qualified, practising teacher of English as a foreign language, I guess I
should be able to help.

For competence, once you've got past the basics of grammar, it's mostly about
memory. Create a database of words, phrases, and example sentences, and use
some kind of Spaced Repetition System (e.g. _Anki_ ) to keep reviewing them.

Fluency is harder. First, what does it mean to be fluent?

Last time you were in a shop and the shopkeeper handed you your change, what
did you say?

 _Thank you._

Did you plan ahead? Did you think, "Oh heck. The shop keeper's just given me
some change. What should I say now?" Of course not. The words just came to
your lips. You were following a script that you'd internalised at a
subconscious level. That's fluency.

So you need to internalise more scripts. How are you going to do that? Learn
them. Seriously ... that's all there is to it. Just memorise huge chunks of
text. Songs, movies, passages from your English textbook, and so on.

In particular, try shadowing. (I.e. speaking in synchrony with the audio
version.) At first, do it with the printed version in front of you. Then do it
purely from memory. Try exaggerating the accent when you do it, too. It may
sound ridiculous, but to native speakers it will sound better than your normal
Italian accent.

You'll see the benefits of all this hard work when you're in conversation.
Fragments of memorised dialogue will pop into your head exactly when you need
them, just like when you said _Thank you._ to the cashier.

By the way, children do this instinctively. That's why they love to watch the
same movie, or hear the same story, over and over again.

~~~
gamegoblin
It's nice to hear this from a professional. I am an English speaker who speaks
a couple foreign languages. When I am alone in my car, I talk to myself in
foreign languages or have mock conversations. I repeat them over and over
again. Then in a real conversation, I mix and match large phrases from my
vault of mock conversations rather than translate word for word.

~~~
auctiontheory
Wow. When the NSA gets around to listening to their smartphone-recorded tapes
of you, they're going to be very, very worried.

(Yes, "tape" is a colloquialism - I realize they probably use solid state
media.)

~~~
gamegoblin
Actually, one of the most common things I repeat to myself is the first
chapter of the Quran (it's only a paragraph) just because I think it sounds
lovely when lyrically recited in arabic. So their tapes probably sound
something like me talking to myself in French, answering myself in Spanish,
and then bursting into a minute of Quranic recitation...

Before going full force into computer programming, I was mainly interested in
linguistics, and threw myself into learning languages and traveling. So I
wouldn't be surprised if my digital communications set off various automated
flags, since I chat with friends around the world (Europe, China, Latin
America, some in the Arab world, notably Saudi Arabia) on a daily basis in ~4
languages. I hope they take me off their lists when they realize we are just
making small talk or discussing English grammar or {{ their language }}'s
grammar.

------
patio11
I'd recommend taking an intensive ESL course, which you presumably have many
options for at local universities. (My wife, who is Japanese, is similarly
looking into options.)

If that isn't an option:

For listening comprehension, and eventually speaking, practice "shadowing."
Have her listen to interest-appropriate TV shows and say exactly what the
speaker is saying, in real time. (You can also do this exercise with
transcription.) It will be _maddeningly_ difficult at first, but with
literally hours a day of doing it, she will see radical gains.

This is a large part of the training for professional
translators/interpreters. In my experience it works very well. It is also some
of the most frustrating work I've ever done.

~~~
simonebrunozzi
Thanks patio11 (you're one of my favorite HN commenters, BTW :D). I found out
that Japanese and Italian, as languages, have a lot in common in terms of
pronunciation, and IT and JP speaking people have similar issues when trying
to learn English. I will definitively tell my wife to look into this.

------
auctiontheory
I've been in this situation in another language: nothing beats (1) reading and
(2) listening and (3) forcing yourself to speak.

It sounds like (3) may be a problem for your wife because of her lack of
confidence. Forcing herself to speak English, as if there is no option, will
make the difference.

If you two were to speak English to each other, so that she could literally
stay in English-only mode all day, every day, that would help. Don't call mom.
Does she read a newspaper? Read the Chronicle or NY Times or Guardian. Listen
to the radio? Listen to NPR, or BBC. Etc.

BTW, do not set as a goal to speak American-accented perfectly idiomatic
English. That will never happen, and is not necessary or even desirable.
Italian accents rock.

~~~
simonebrunozzi
We will always keep "some" Italian accent, don't worry :)

------
bane
Accent can be a big perceptive issues for non-native speakers. It'd be worth
it to look for an accent coach. Even if the rest of her English isn't perfect,
being clearly understood for the rest of it might be worth it.

------
nobozo
The first thing to do is to always be listening to people speaking English.
Try to be aware of how they pronounce things and compare them to how you do
it. Be aware of little things like verb conjugations. People will still
understand you if you do it wrong but you'll definitely stand out as a
foreigner. Also, don't talk too fast.

In your case this won't work, but try to stay away from other speakers of your
native language. I see students at UC Berkeley who end up getting roommates
from their same country. This is a very bad idea because they won't be forced
to adapt their brain to the new language. I always found that having a
girlfriend who speaks the language I'm trying to learn was a good idea.

Reading books will help your vocabulary but it probably won't help your
understanding of spoken language. What I did when I was living in a foreign
country trying to learn the language was to watch children's TV shows. Once I
was able to speak and understand at a 5 year old's level I felt like I was
ready to expand my horizons.

------
tokenadult
_What 's the best way for a foreigner to improve English to a great level?_

I wrote a FAQ comment about that a while ago that became one of my most
popular ever comments. I'll link to that here rather than repeat all the text
again.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6302816](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6302816)

Good luck!

~~~
simonebrunozzi
Thanks tokenadult!

------
mlyang
Go onto Meetup.com and see if there are any relevant meetups in the San
Francisco area for people looking to practice English. Alternatively, just go
to any Meetup for a topic she's interested in (e.g. crafts, health, etc.) and
she can talk and interact with the people there.

I would recommend that she volunteer somewhere (a non-profit or a clinic)
where she'd be talking to people for most of the day. The best way to improve
is just by practicing. I think that'll be more efficient and effective than
any of these language sites/products.

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pmiller2
This is one situation where watching TV as a background activity might
actually be helpful. The best way to learn English is to surround yourself
with English as much as possible. So, read, watch TV, talk to people, and to
speak English at home as much as possible.

On the other hand, I bet her English is actually better than she thinks it is.
I've met a lot of non-native English speakers who have unnecessarily
apologized for perfectly intelligible (if accented) English.

~~~
wyclif
As a former ESL teacher, I think TV can be helpful but it's better to be very
selective about which shows you watch. Pick shows that have a lot of dialogue
in English.

Older TV shows tend to be more dialogue-centric. If you have the TV Land
channel, I'd suggest: MASH, All in the Family, I Love Lucy, The Honeymooners,
The Dick Van Dyke Show, &c.

Contemporary shows that would be good for this purpose might be: Modern
Family, NCIS, Mad Men, Big Bang Theory, Parks and Recreation, Arrested
Development, Parenthood (advanced: lots of simultaneous talking).

~~~
pmiller2
Good point. I think I might actually avoid comedies at first though, because
it can be hard to get the jokes.

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yawz
Only practice can take her English at the desired level somewhat quickly. I'm
trilingual with a forth language under my belt and in my opinion she has to
spend as much time as possible with native English speakers (or with people
who speak English very well). Unfortunately you aren't a native speaker so
more than likely she's exposed to Italian more than English. This is a major
hurdle. Reading is good. Listening is great but nothing beats discussing. One-
on-one conversation classes could be great. You could look for people willing
to practice Italian in exchange for English practice. Check "meetup"s in your
region so that you can meet people and discuss in English (in whatever topic
that is of interest to you). There's no doubt that she has to study grammar
and vocabulary. She has to read a lot (It is important to use
tools/apps/dictionaries that can speak the searched words). But I would
concentrate heavily on English communication.

------
hysan
Talk to yourself (in your head or out loud, whatever floats your boat) and
think in English. Do this constantly when you're walking alone, doing the
dishes, folding laundry, etc. It's a good way to practice and get yourself
used to not having to rely on your mother tongue during downtime when you
cannot do focused study/practice.

------
tomlu
I believe the human brain is best capable of picking up a language by being
subjected to it. Hence I prefer reading and speaking over artificial practice,
at least beyond bootstrap level.

Here's what worked for me:

1\. Get an acceptable grasp using traditional methods (you are already here).

2\. Read about three books while looking up every single word you don't
understand. This may be easier when reading on a tablet. Warning: This will be
slow going. Perhaps pick some favourite books you've already read.

3\. Read another twenty or so books, but you shouldn't have to use the
dictionary very often. Concentrate on flow.

This will take care of your vocabulary and grammar. To master conversational
English and pronunciation you have to speak to people, but the foundation you
built above will help.

Four months is an ambitious goal if you're looking for complete fluency, but
you should see solid improvements.

------
sifarat
Even though I had my personal interest to learn English, back when internet
was not common, or not very accessible due to dialup, i would buy English
newspapers and study them, and always keep a dictionary with them.

However, that was bit silly and a lot more time consuming.

The best to improve English is to be part of a community (an online forum).
it's up to you which you want to join. Only join the one which interests you.
Get involved in lengthy debates and discussiona, I know it's not cool, but
just for the sake of learning and improving your English.

If you follow up above advice, your English skills will skyrocket in a very
short time compared to traditional methods.

------
ef4
If you have friends or coworkers who are native speakers, ask them to please
correct you when you say something that isn't perfectly fluent.

Otherwise most people will ignore your mistakes, rather than risk insulting
you.

------
hammadd
I'll give you my honest suggestion? Do not waste 4 months learning the
language. Just let her go to work. At work, she will interact with all kinds
of people which effectively exposes her to the language. That way she will
learn the language more quickly and naturally rather than coaching or lessons
or whatever.

I live in Saudi Arabia and as a non Arab I had a very difficult time speaking
Arabic. I too spent a lot of time trying to learn the language before hand but
it's nowhere effective to what you learn in a real situation with people.

------
gorbachev
I moved to the US 15 years ago. I thought my English was good (A+ in every
exam I ever took), but I was sadly mistaken. Thankfully it didn't prevent me
from getting jobs.

It took me about 2-3 years to get truly fluent. Get out there, speak English
with everyone, get yourself in uncomfortable situations, immerse yourself in
the language completely. That's the only way to really get it.

I think Pitarou's answer is spot on, if you need to improve the language
skills in a short time though.

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erichurkman
Movies are a great supplementary source to actual ESL-type classes. It's
difficult for language classes to teach turns of phrases, idioms, regional
dialects, etc. Movies with subtitles are great -- Even better if you can find
movies that offer subtitle files in both English and Italian. VLC can take
multiple subtitle files and let you toggle pretty easily between the two
languages.

(Set up hotkeys to toggle subtitle files, to go back 15 or 30 seconds. Space
bar pauses.)

------
vishaldpatel
There's a story of a Korean boy who learned English after coming to the United
States by watching Simpsons episodes with the subtitles on. He'd write down
every word / sentence that he didn't understand, find it's meaning and learn
it. Then when the same episode was aired again later in the week, he'd watch
it again to make sure that he understood.

------
simonebrunozzi
Quick update for everybody: my wife is really grateful for all the advice, and
thanks you all!! I am also very grateful for all your help.

------
seanccox
She wants to focus on speaking and listening in a short time frame, so she
needs to do both of those things – exclusively.

Materials: \- DVDs of several TV programs with multiple seasons (make them
subject relevant if she has a specific subject-matter goal) \- Several regular
talk radio/podcasts \- You. Apparently, you know English. Stop speaking to her
in anything but English. Just stop.

Method: \- The goal here is to bludgeon the language faculty of your wife's
brain with English. It'll feel kinda uncomfortable, but you want to create an
experience that so surrounds her with English that the brain is forced to do
work it's already good at – that is, figuring out language. \- So, every day,
listen to talk radio. It creates the same experience as being dropped into a
conversation in a foreign country where you don't know the language. She just
needs to try to follow the conversation. This has the added benefit of not
taking place in a bar or cafe, with a lot of back noise. Encourage her to take
note of words that get repeated a lot, to look them up, and to listen again,
but don't waste her time with exercises that answer questions about the
content, b/c the content is irrelevant. \- Next, pick a TV series and start
watching. Have your wife choose a character to 'follow'. She is to repeat
everything that character says, in as close to the same accent as it was
produced. Most TV shows are about 30-60 minutes, so have her do this with a
few shows, just make sure the shows feature a few characters that do a lot of
talking, so that she get's more practice. \- Lastly, go out together, a lot.
Meet people. Language exists between people first and foremost, so the best
way to build on her practice is in the field. Beforehand, she can prepare the
20 or so important things that she might want to say/talk about, and discuss
them with you. Then, take her to an event to meet people and abandon her to
fend for herself in a conversation.

All this sounds kinda ego-crushing, but it really is the fastest way to get to
a high level of speaking/listening fluency. Think about this, a language class
will be populated with other people learning English, whereas a bar will be
filled with chatty people. A class will have her sitting, passively absorbing
a lesson with occasional practice, whereas the methods described above involve
active processes. Finally, if you cease to provide an Italian-language safe
zone, her brain will naturally begin to adjust. It's an uncomfortable process,
but I achieved a high degree of spoken/listening fluency with both German and
Turkish this way, as a native English speaker. Compared to two years of
classroom Arabic, and I can hardly say my name.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

------
brickcap
I have always believed that best way to learn a new language is to spend time
with it. Read as much as you can. Watch subtitled movies and you will
instinctively pick up on pronounciation.

Above all speak and write it. As you spend more time with it you will gain
confidence.

------
veritech
When I'm alone I try to describe my surroundings in another language, It great
for identifying adjectives and verbs that I don't already know. Coupled with a
good dictionary app it really helps fill in the blanks.

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azrealus
1\. Surround yourself with native speakers and spend as much time as you can
with them carrying on daily conversations. 2\. Stop worrying about your accent
or the fact that people won't always understand you.

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ma2rten
First identify what your weakness is (vocabulary and idioms, grammar, accent,
comprehension). Then do something specific to improve on that: for instance
for vocabulary the best is to read books or articles.

------
amcnett
Play Cards Against Humanity with a couple understanding, native English-
speaking friends. My girlfriend's sister's boyfriend is Swiss, and CAH has
helped him learn a number idioms rather quickly.

~~~
simonebrunozzi
We just bought it a few weeks ago! We'll use it more often :)

------
zkirill
Read books out loud. My English, both speech and vocabulary, improved
dramatically after I spent weeks sitting outside on the balcony reading Lord
of the Rings out loud to myself.

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gallerytungsten
Take notes at all times; every time there's a word or phrase she should write
it down and google it later. Learn idiomatic phrases and "think" in English.

------
shire
[http://www.memrise.com/courses/english/english/](http://www.memrise.com/courses/english/english/)

------
marveller
Watch netflix videos w/ subtitles on. Mimic lead character's speech. Record
your speech and compare it, repeat. It always worked for me.

------
dimfisch
Listen to music she loves along with the lyrics. I learned Brazilian
Portuguese just like that.

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analogbit
I will assume that fluency here means spoken comprehension and speaking so you
are easily understood by a vast majority of the population. In my data, these
are both harder than reading comprehension for english. Reading comprehension
also seems far more prevalent than spoken comprehension and fluency.

In my travels through language learning I have come upon two dominant models
for language acquisition:

1- The academic model - learning about phonemes, IPA, SOV (Subject-Object-
Verb) versus SVO etc. Somewhere along the line the hope is that everything
will click and you will develop good pronunciation, comprehension and the
rest. This works for some people but the vast majority do not end up with
basic comprehension or even decent pronunciation. Fluency is rare and often a
land far far away.

2- Mimicry - This is how infants acquire languages and also how we get our
accents. This model almost invariably works - witness the billions of infants
who speak the language(s) of the lands they were born into without any
training in IPA. This is also why it is hard to learn english from a native
english speaker who lacks formal training in imparting language education.
Ditto learning to catch frisbees from dogs.

Mimicry has two steps namely discernment and replication. In discernment, just
like in learning to play music one has to "hear" it before one can replicate
it. The process below will help you learn to discern the sound. Once you get
proficient at hearing it you can then try to replicate it. Again just like
learning to play music, you now try to replicate the sound you have learnt to
discern.

Quite a few commenters have suggested following along to tv/radio/movies in
the english language to grok enunciation, syntax and vocabulary. FWIW, this is
stellar advice which will serve you better than most language learning
packages.

Here is a pragmatic way to go about the above advice:

#1 Voice of America (VOA) news readers are the closest to an American version
of the BBC's newscasters "received english" accents. VOA has a great language
learning resource where their newscasters read out news stories in carefully
enunciated english:
[http://learningenglish.voanews.com/](http://learningenglish.voanews.com/).

#2 Pick a news item for example "English Level 1 \--> "Remembering Nelson
Mandela..." and download the mp3 file from "Play or download..."

#3 Download VLC player:
[http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html](http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html).

#4 Play the downloaded mp3 and read the article aloud trying to replicate the
enunciation. VLC player comes in handy wherein under playback you can slow
down the playback speed to really understand the enunciation and replicate it.
Stop and replay as often as needed. In some versions of VLC player like on
Android you might have to turn on equalization in VLC to overcome the
distortion when you slow-dow/speed-up the playback.

As indicated by many commenters, doing this for 1-2 hours/day will get you
results in a very short period. Short period here would mean weeks to months.
If you do try this please post the results of your process and what worked and
did not work for you.

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thenerdfiles
First idea: [http://www.duolingo.com/](http://www.duolingo.com/) — there's
Italian to English.

~~~
seppo0010
Duolingo is great to start learning a new language, not to become proficient.

