
Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know - cepp
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/E4cKD9iTWHaE7f3AJ/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know
======
anonu
Couple anecdotal points:

\- Used to have to sleep problems - mainly just my mind racing with all the
(stress of) things I had to do. The symptoms were trouble sleeping and/or
waking in the middle of the night with instant thoughts of projects, task
lists.

\- Melatonin didn't help me much. Maybe their effect was too subtle on me -
maybe I was using the wrong dose as mentioned in the post.

\- Magnesium Glycinate pills before sleep were a massive help in falling
asleep and staying asleep. The only way I can describe its effects is helping
me "control my brain waves". Sounds a bit non-technical but the effect is
quite subtle . The idea to take these supplements were from previous
discussions on HN.

\- Recently got a newborn baby - first child. These things will do more to
knock you sleep cycle out whack than anything else I've experienced.
Coincidentally, falling asleep and staying asleep is easier than ever. You
just end up getting woken up by a tiny crying human at seemingly random times.

~~~
dogcow
I am sharing my experience because I know how awful sleep problems can be.

I'm in my 30s and eat what many consider a very healthful diet - virtually no
sugar, just veggies, high quality fats and proteins, and minimal fruit. I
spend 7-9 hours in bed; yet wake up feeling exhausted every. single. day. I'd
love to exercise, but I'm too continuously tired to get started.

Melatonin, when taken via dissolving sublingual tablet (1-3 mg), makes me feel
a bit sleepier, but doesn't often keep me asleep through the night. When
swallowed via a capsule, it makes me feel like I've been hit by a bus for the
entirety of the next day, even if I slept the night before.

My own research led me to magnesium glycinate, which helped to some degree
(maybe I wasn't taking enough?), but didn't solve the problem. My biggest
trouble is falling asleep - I can be dead tired, but as soon as I'm in bed, my
mind goes nuts, and I lie awake for hours. Then, by the time my body is in
nice deep sleep, it's time to get up, and the deep sleep is disrupted.

I recently had an appointment with my physician (who practices integrative
medicine and is not your typical MD), and he told me to try a relatively new
formulation of magnesium called Magnesium L-Threonate, commercially known as
Magtein.

It is apparently the best type of magnesium for crossing the blood-brain
barrier, and thus, likely the best at addressing sleep issues.

I've been on it for about a week now (taking 1000mg 2 hours before bed and
1000mg upon waking in the morning), and have slept better in the last two
nights than I have for a long time. Here's to hoping it keeps working!

I also use a couple other hacks to help me sleep - at night, about an hour
after the sun sets, I wear "blue blocking" glasses (the UVEX S0360X fit nicely
over my prescription glasses). Sounds (and looks) goofy, but for me it creates
a noticeably stronger "sleep pressure" than I'd experience without them. I
also wear a mask over my eyes when sleeping, to block out any ambient light,
and I just started making an effort to listen to music while waiting to fall
asleep. I think all of these things help to some degree.

Also, check out the book "Why We Sleep" by Matthew Walker.

~~~
victor106
Not sure if minimal fruit counts as a healthy diet

~~~
theptip
It does, assuming you're getting enough vegetables; fruit is mostly sugar
(high glycemic load which causes crashes, promotes diabetes, etc.), so not
actually that good for you on the macronutrient level.

~~~
anonuser123456
Uh not really. Most fruit is both low to medium GI and GL. Sugar in fruit is
bound to fiber and bloodstream uptake is fairly slow.

There is a negative correlation between RDA fruit consumption and diabetes.

~~~
dalore
Correlation does not equal causation. People who generally eat less fruit are
people who usually ignore health advice in general, and would replace fruit
with stuff like sugar or carbs. Eating too much fruit gives an overload of
fructose, which also triggers an insulin response.

If you eat the right meats, like liver, you get more vitamins and minerals
then you would from fruit. So if you know what you are eating, it's fine to
cut off fruit.

~~~
anonuser123456
>Eating too much fruit gives an overload of fructose,

Note the operative modifier 'too much'

You can eat your recommended daily intake of fruit in one sitting with no
other food and still remain below high GL levels.

Digestion is a complex process. Your model that anything containing fructose
is bad is not supported by any data / analysis I am aware of, and contradicted
by nearly all of it.

Mammals process most of thier fructose consumption in their small intestines.
Only high doses that overload this capacity lead to harmful spillover to the
liver etc.

------
beagle3
While melatonin helped me, the results were inconsistent.

However, 10,000IU of vitamin D3 before 10am (see e.g. [0] for discussion and
analysis that do NOT support my regime) seem to consistently give me a good
reliable sleep schedule.

I was definitely not as thorough as Gwern, nor comparing to placebo - but for
decades I have tried tens of different sleep aids, most of them useless, some
working for a couple of weeks and then not, melatonin being inconsistent -
with vitamin D feeling like a jackpot.

If you care to experiment, do your own reading on dosing - it should be
adjusted down if you spend any time in the sun - but it should 25-50IU/lb of
body weight, which is way higher than the FDA RDA. This is not medical advice.
I am not a medical professional, nor do I play one on TV. YMMV. Proceed at
your own risk.

[0] [https://www.gwern.net/zeo/Vitamin-D](https://www.gwern.net/zeo/Vitamin-D)

~~~
bg4
I take 5,000 IU of Vitamin D daily and 3 mg of Melatonin about an hour or so
before bed. It has all but cured a lifetime of serious sleep issues.

~~~
kazinator
I take 5000 D3 at 9 in the morning. It causes me to naturally wake up at 6
a.m. or even earlier, without feeling groggy.

If I take it when traveling, jet lag is greatly diminished and overcome much
more rapidly. I switch to taking it 9 a.m. of the destination's local time. If
9 a.m. occurs during the flight, I take it then.

It's like an external clock pulse!

The first time I took 5000 D3, I made the mistake of doing it in the evening.
My sleep that very night was quite strange, disturbed with weird dreams. I
immediately clued in to the fact that morning might be better. Basically,
mimicking the onset of daylight.

D3 is beneficial for exercise; it relieves that muscle soreness and tiredness
and improves mental alertness. It helps beat those winter blues and gets you
out there.

------
amaccuish
Melatonin has genuinely changed my life in regards to sleep. I'd tried
everything and for exams went on Zopiclone, and then found the gold that is
Melatonin. Thoroughly recommend anyone with suitable problems sleeping giving
it a go.

(I was DSPD, though every so often did the whole "Non-24-Hour-Sleep Disorder"
thing)

~~~
xor1
How much do you take? I was regularly taking 3mg and 1.5mg regularly for most
of the past 4 years. I recently tried 0.3mg (as recommended in another recent
HN discussion about melatonin, I think it was a week or 2 ago), and I had
terrible results.

On 1.5mg and 3mg, I would have very unsettling and memorable dreams, as well
as wake up very tired, but I would get at least 7 hours of sleep on most
nights. With 0.3mg, I woke after only 3 hours of sleep, feeling very energized
but then getting very, very tired by early afternoon. I would fall asleep
between 10 PM and midnight, wake up three hours later, then be unable to fall
back asleep before it's time to go to work.

This meant I had to use stimulants to be functional, and I entered a cycle of
not being able to sleep through the night, having to use stims in the morning,
having to use melatonin at night to fall asleep, waking up after 3-4 hours,
repeat. I finally broke it this past week by taking a sick day and sleeping
through most of it, but I still couldn't hit 7 consecutive hours.

I can't even remember the last time I got the recommended minimum of 8 hours,
regardless of what I do. I am trying ashwagandha and ZMA together for the
first time tonight, having just taken both about an hour ago. I also took D3
this morning which will hopefully help too.

I think I'm done with melatonin for now, since I saw recommendations to
abstain for a week or 2 to reset, and then trying again at the smaller dosage.
But if this works, I probably won't use it again.

~~~
atmosx
D3 should be taken for small periods. Note that these supplements, do not make
up for self-produced substances.

I would like to ask you if instead of using melatonin to enhance your sleep,
did you try physical exercise. If your body is physically tired and you
abstain from screens (iPads, iPhones, etc.) for 2h before sleeping, you should
be able to get a decent amount of sleep.

Additionally, sleep quality doesn’t translate in hours. You could have a
5-hours sleep, where you reach the REM phase vs a 7-hour sleep where you
don’t.

~~~
xor1
I don't exercise regularly, and I really should. My issue is I always feel too
tired to exercise in the morning, and I feel like I have trouble falling
asleep if I exercise in the evening. But I'm starting to think that exercising
late isn't the problem now. I'll try what you recommend. It's really hard to
abstain from screens, too. I'm definitely not doing that. I'll try doing
nothing other than reading actual books ~2 hours before bed from now on.

~~~
andy_ppp
If you don’t like Cardio like me I can’t recommend
[https://stronglifts.com](https://stronglifts.com) enough. It’s been really
fun slowly building up strength and I’m squatting 105kg now. Improves my mood
and sleep no end.

------
skadamat
Every single person here, if your serious about diving into the science of
sleep, should read Matthew Walker's book: Why We Sleep:
[https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-
Dreams/dp/1501...](https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-
Dreams/dp/1501144316)

His interview on Joe Rogan is a good summary:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig)

He covers everything from why we sleep (obv), naps, melatonin, etc. I've just
finished it and really enjoyed it.

~~~
atomical
Joe Rogan is one of the biggest propagators of pseudoscience. It's not a good
sign when a guest appears on his show. Joe usually tries to rope them into
talking about his two favorite health topics: cholesterol and testosterone.

~~~
dokem
Eh, I've listened to hundreds of his episodes. Some are good for a laugh, some
have interesting guests and I learn a thing or two, some I can't make it
through. Not everything has to be a text book. What exactly is the problem? I
find the unedited, uncensored, long form, 1 on 1, conversational style very
appealing - Joe is just a chatter box to keep the guest talking.

~~~
atomical
I presented the problem clearly.

------
drasticmeasures
From the article:

>The consensus stresses that melatonin is a very weak hypnotic. The Buscemi
meta-analysis cites this as their reason for declaring negative results
despite a statistically significant effect – the supplement only made people
get to sleep about ten minutes faster. “Ten minutes” sounds pretty pathetic,
but we need to think of this in context. Even the strongest sleep medications,
like Ambien, only show up in studies as getting you to sleep ten or twenty
minutes faster; this New York Times article says that “viewed as a group,
[newer sleeping pills like Ambien, Lunesta, and Sonata] reduced the average
time to go to sleep 12.8 minutes compared with fake pills, and increased total
sleep time 11.4 minutes.” I don’t know of any statistically-principled
comparison between melatonin and Ambien, but the difference is hardly (pun not
intended) day and night.

>Rather than say “melatonin is crap”, I would argue that all sleeping pills
have measurable effects that vastly underperform their subjective effects. The
linked article speculates on one reason this might be: people have low
awareness around the time they get to sleep, and a lot of people’s perception
of whether they’re insomniac or not is more anxiety (or sometimes literally
dream) than reality. This is possible, but I also think of this in terms of
antidepressant studies, which find similarly weak objective effects despite
patients (and doctors) who swear by them and say they changed their lives. If
I had to guess, I would say that the studies include an awkward combination of
sick and less-sick people and confuse responders and non-responders. Maybe
this is special pleading. I don’t know. But if you think any sleeping pill
works well, melatonin doesn’t necessarily work much worse than that.

The evidence says that it's a very weak hypnotic. The writer then makes a
long, pseudoscientific argument against the evidence, while making a claim
that their article is scientific, even though it wasn't peer reviewed. They
make a cherry-picked comparison to Ambien, Lunesta and Sonata based on an
article by non-scientific newspaper New York Times to bolster their claims;
they ignore the ability of other, more potent hypnotics to improve time to
sleep and sleep length in mental illness-caused insomnia -- on whom melatonin
may be ineffective -- and in people with different causes for their sleep
disorders.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the other flaws in the
article.

~~~
robbiep
2 other low hanging fruit that make me pause re credibility:

The article butchers the role of intracellular adenosine increases. It would
be fairly easy to describe the full mechanism but instead says that Adenosine
is made whilst awake and cleared while asleep which is a gross
oversimplification and actually pretty scientifically inaccurate.

It further describes UpToDate as 'the gold standard research database' \-
UpToDate is nothing of the sort - it is a authoritative clinical reference.
Think Economist for medicine, except each article is about a condition,
diagnosis or treatment and it is updated. But like all clinical references
that are produced by humans, it has biases specific to the authors, their
clinical practices etc

------
jwilliams
I regularly take long haul flights (12+ hours) and take Melatoin for Jet Lag.

I'll take twice. With the flights I take this usually works out to before
sleeping on the plane (which ideally is the same/close to bed-time at the
destination). And then the first night at the destination.

In combination with other tricks -- I've found it really effective.

~~~
andy_ppp
What are the other tricks, I’ve always found jet lag horrendous.

~~~
camillomiller
I also use Melatonin for jetlag, but I usually prefer to do it just for the
first and second night at the destination. On 12+ hrs flight I prefer a bland
sleeping aid, as it is not directly working on the circadian rhythm (or at
least that’s my experience). Other useful tricks:

\- ban alcohol altogether the day of the flight an possibly one day before and
one after

\- order a special vegan meal during the flight, even if you’re not vegan.
They’ll serve you first and you’ll have more time to organize your sleeping
schedule on board, plus you’ll stay more hydrated as the meal will usually
include more veggies. \- stay hydrated constantly, I’d dare say even over
hydrated

~~~
philjohn
The vegan meal trick is airline specific.

On BA for instance, if you're in premium economy or higher as long as you
order your meal via their portal a few days before the flight they'll serve
you first before offering what's left to everyone else.

------
hendzen
If you regularly buy Melatonin, I highly recommend Trader Joes Brand chewable
Melatonin tablets.

In my area they cost $2.99 for a bottle, far below the cost of other brands,
and the dosage per tablet is 0.5mg or 500mcg which for me is pretty optimal.

EDIT: corrected units.

~~~
slaveofallah93
>0.5g or 500mcg

I hope you mean 0.5 mg not 0.5g because that would be a very big dose!

~~~
anonytrary
I think he did mean .5mg since 500ug is .5mg. Still, I'm a bit confused. The
bottles I get come in doses of 10mg, I can't imagine taking even just two or
three of them in a single night! On the other hand, I'd think 1/20th of my
pill (.5mg) would be way too little. After reading this relevant paraphrase
from the article:

> There have been few studies on sighted young people. One finds that 1 mg
> works but 0.3 mg doesn’t; this study is an outlier. Another study on 25yo
> found both to work equally. Another study on 22-24yo found that 0.3 mg
> worked better than 1.0. UpToDate and Mayo Clinic suggests using at most
> .5mg. John Hopkins’ experts almost agree: they say “less is more” but
> recommend 1-3 mg.

I wonder if I should actually start cutting my pills in 20ths now... The
author goes on to say he personally thinks that .3mg is a good amount and
anything beyond 1mg is too much.

Edit: Sorry for the edits, I read the article after I made my comment, then
figured I'd share their answer since I asked the question myself.

~~~
mkolodny
> On the other hand, I'd think 1/20th of my pill (.5mg) would be way too
> little.

That's one of the key points of the article:

> “But my local drugstore sells 10 mg pills! When I asked if they had anything
> lower, they looked through their stockroom and were eventually able to find
> 3 mg pills! And you’re saying the correct dose is a third of a milligram?!”

> Yes. Most existing melatonin tablets are around ten to thirty times the
> correct dose.

~~~
anonytrary
Yes, I ended up reading the article after commenting (shame on me) and edited
my answer to contain their answer. Sorry!

------
geofft
Re dosages - I recently found melatonin in liquid / dropper bottle form at one
of my local drugstores, intended to be mixed into a glass of water or similar.
The "dosage" is 1 mg, but that requires 4 droppers - so a single dropper is
250 µg, and it's very easy to do less than that (although not with much
accuracy).

If you don't want to buy from some online nootropics store just to get a 300µg
dose, check your local drugstore or vitamin store for liquid melatonin, and
read the label and see how much each dropper is.

I just took a ~half-dropper with a glass of water because I'm still up. Good
night!

~~~
lxmorj
Also if it's cheap enough, you can dump half the water after dilution!

~~~
geofft
Yes, that (or mixing a pitcher of 3mg melatonin and measuring a tenth of it
each evening, or something) would also work. Anything with liquid seems way
less fiddly than trying to split pills into >2 parts, I'm surprised I don't
see more liquid melatonin at stores _or_ more people who know that they want a
<1mg dose suggesting liquid melatonin.

~~~
derefr
> less fiddly

If the melatonin is in pressed-pill form, rather than splitting it, you can
just crush it in a mortar, then mix it with more filler (look at which one
they’re already using on the bottle and use some of that; they’re usually
using the cheapest thing that works.) Then you can simply measure out powder
for a dose (rather than measuring out liquid).

If you want to go the extra mile, you can add enough filler to the mixture to
fill a grid of gelatin half-capsules, such that you don’t have to worry about
measuring doses.

------
macawfish
Magnesium is very important. Magnesium deficient rats were shown to have
decreased melatonin.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17172005/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17172005/)

It's also protective against hypercalcemia, so if you're taking vitamin D,
make sure you're getting enough magnesium.

I've even read that magnesium alone can mitigate the symptoms of vitamin D
deficiency.

~~~
Confusion
Magnesium is important, many people are deficient, supplementation is cheap
and supplementation is very unlikely to cause harm (as long as you keep it to
max 300 mg of elemental Mg (e.g. 2g of magnesium citrate) a day). Like with
vitamin D, you should have very good reasons not to chose to take a magnesium
supplement.

~~~
opportune
Is magnesium dissolved in water bioavailable? There are some sparkling mineral
waters with Mg ions and it would be nice to be able to just sip on those

~~~
Confusion
I’m not sure. I know the bioavailability of magnesium citrate is much better
than that of magnesium oxide, due to the bad solubility in water of the latter
(and supplements with magnesium oxide are thus next to useless). That suggests
Mg ions already present should be readily absorbed.

------
iEchoic
> Yes. Most existing melatonin tablets are around ten to thirty times the
> correct dose.

I couldn't find an explanation why they'd be sold at this dose from this
article, which makes me suspicious of this. Am I missing something? What would
be the motive for this?

~~~
copperx
Because they're sold as supplements and not as medications. Many supplement
dosages are arbitrary, with few exceptions.

------
qwerty456127
Wow! I've started with 2.5 mg and now 20 mg does nothing to me. I've been
doing it sooo wrong. I hope the tolerance is going to fall now as I've stopped
taking it and I will be able to use it the right way going with 0.3mg. That's
such a pity you can't just get any better kind of a sleeping pill without a
prescription if you don't want to mess with circadian rhythms and just want to
fall asleep whenever you have time but can't. So many people actually have
irregular schedules: day and night shifts mixed chaotically etc. I actually
don't think I know anybody who would go to bed at the same time every night. I
wish I had Ambien for occasions like that (I don't drive) but it seems
impossible to get without a doctor.

In fact I've tried to do some research but failed to find any information
about undesirable effects and DON'Ts of melatonin at the time when I've
started taking it (some years ago). It seemed a wonder drug everybody should
be taking all the time - it just makes you sleep well whenever you choose to,
protects from oxidative stress, boosts your immunity etc. But now I know:
tolerance (including tolerance to endogenic melatonin which means screwing
your natural circadian system) is what you pay (I could find not a single
mention of melatonin tolerance until today).

------
elchief
I used to suffer terrible sleep until recently. Always exhausted in the
morning. Sore all over. Missed meetings, or called in sick some days. Would
wake up around 11 if I could

Now I can wake up around 630 am, lift weights, do HIIT, and be early to work

Melatonin wakes me up in the middle of the night. I take Unisom (Doxylamine)
as well. Works pretty well in combination

I have blackout curtains but I need some light to wake me up in the am, so I
leave them open about six inches on one side

I eat a small organic meal for dinner, early as I can, usually by 630

~~~
TheEzEzz
Just an anecdotal warning. Unisom is not recommended for long term use. I
didn't know this and used it for a year straight to combat stress induced
insomnia during my first startup. It took me a few years before I returned to
feeling "normal". YMMV.

~~~
travbrack
Another data point: I've been using it on and off for a year now and it's been
a life saver. I can reliably get to sleep when I need to for the first time in
my life

As best I can tell it's not recommended for long term use because it hasn't
been studied for that purpose and because there are prescription sleep aids
that don't cause as much drowsiness

I'm terrified of taking a prescription sleep aid because of all the
sleepwalking horror stories.

I take only 5 mg so the drowsiness isn't that big of a problem for me
especially if I exercise in the morning. I'll take drowsy and rested over
alert and unrested any day.

~~~
joveian
The first generation antihistamines are strongly anticholinergic, so long term
use might have cognative effects and may increase the chance of dementia later
in life. They can also interact with a lot of other medication since they are
much less specific than most drugs. I agree that they are still quite a bit
better than GABA-A agonists. IMO, any sleep medication is best taken with
breaks as frequently as possible, which can both increase effectiveness when
you take it and reduce side effects of long term use.

~~~
travbrack
Wow, that is good to know. Thank you.

------
taeric
Are there statistics somewhere on how many folks use an alarm clock? Every
time I think I have a sleeping problem, I'm always harshly reminded of how
different my sleeping habits are by virtue of the fact that I have never used
an alarm clock. Something that it seems near universal among everyone else.
(Though, I suspect it is just something everyone talks about. Hypothesis being
that I'm in the majority, but there is just nothing to say about not using
one.)

~~~
noitsnot
If I didn't use an alarm clock I would be unemployed.

~~~
gordaco
I've trained myself (and reworked my daily schedule) to stop using alarm
clocks. Incidentally, next week will be 4 years since the last time I used
one. And melatonin has been one of my main tools.

Getting up by yourself instead of being jolted out of sleep is invaluable,
especially if you do rest all the time you need.

~~~
taeric
Similarly, I haven't used one for more than a few months at a time for my
entire life. Pushing forty at this point. I'll confess the winter months up
here in Seattle can be tough. Sun isn't up til about 8ish, so it can be hard
to realize what time it is.

In the summer, though, sun is up at 4:30. I don't know how folks sleep too
late. Even when exhausted, sleeping past 7 is near impossible.

------
GuardianCaveman
I never took it because I read a long time ago that it causes your body to
decrease melatonin production long term. I guess that’s just a myth because
people in this thread seem very positive about using it long term.

~~~
craftyguy
People in this thread didn't RTFA (top posts are addressing the title/subject
of 'melatonin'), and generally the responses are anecdotal. Don't assume folks
here know what they are talking about.

------
chmars
Melatonin is usually not (freely) sold in Europe while it can be easily bought
in the US like vitamin pills or cod liver oil.

Is there a recommendable online option with international delivery?

(I don't consider the usual 'online pharmacies' recommendable. Even when
buying Melatonin in a store in the US, there's still the issue that Melatonin
manufacturers and sellers mostly control themselves …)

~~~
akx
Huh. Melatonin is readily available in pharmacies and shops here in Finland.

~~~
akvadrako
I don't know why the parent said "Europe", unless they did a survey of all the
laws. Drugs are mostly regulated at the country level.

~~~
chmars
You are right, my use of "Europe" was too broad.

------
moultano
Melatonin has been a lifesaver for me after having kids and for a few other
new parents I know that I've recommended it to. Somehow it allows you to get
much more rest out of interrupted sleep.

------
20years
Melatonin has also shown to help with certain cancers especially breast. Ref:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5412427/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5412427/)

~~~
56chan4
No mention of the antioxidant properties of melatonin or its metabolites.
[https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/ctmc/2002/0000000...](https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/ctmc/2002/00000002/00000002/art00006)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3614697/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3614697/)
[https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fj.01-0309fje](https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fj.01-0309fje)

Or the fact it also appears to have an effect on mesenchymal stem cells.
[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-079X....](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-079X.2006.00318.x)
[https://stemcellsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10...](https://stemcellsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1634/stemcells.2007-1000)
[https://stemcellsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10...](https://stemcellsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1634/stemcells.2007-0197)

Perhaps this is why its called Beauty Sleep?

I also wonder what effect on the sleep pattern these above affects have in the
big picture of sleep?

Best sleep I have had in adulthood was water only fasting for 18days recently.
The body seems to know what to do to repair itself, perhaps because ever cell
has a copy of our DNA in it. There seems to be some knowledge in this DNA that
makes cells know what to be and how to perform its individual cellular role
for the bigger picture of being part of a body, a bit like individual humans
playing their part in a society.

------
protomok
Just a quick warning for those considering Melatonin before a flight or for
adjusting to jet lag:

About a week before a long flight I decided to test Melatonin and took a
single 3mg tablet (smallest dosage I could find at my local pharmacy) before I
went to bed. My sleep quality seemed unchanged but right after breakfast the
next day I had gastro issues.

I tried a 3 mg tablet again a few days later and had the same symptoms.

I gave up on Melatonin deciding it was better to be wide awake over the
Pacific than stuck in a tiny airplane bathroom :)

YMMV but other folks online have had similar side effects. It seems a small %
of people have gastro issues but if you're considering Melatonin I suggest a
small dosage first (maybe 0.3mg as recommended by the article) and a test
_before_ travelling!

------
ipunchghosts
I see lots of posts bashing melatonin.

I take 0.5mg/night one hour before bed and it helps calm my mind and get right
to sleep. It also helps me with my reflux!

------
Leary
Melatonin is also an antioxidant. Does anyone know its effects on physical
health?

~~~
drasticmeasures
[https://examine.com/supplements/melatonin/](https://examine.com/supplements/melatonin/)

See section 9.

------
yosito
I'm reading HN because I have insomnia after upping my Melatonin dose from
2.5mg to 5mg at the recommendation of my psychiatrist. I've never had the
early morning jolt of energy until the last couple of days. Maybe I'll drop my
dosage down to 1.75mg tomorrow. That's about the lowest I can get with these
10mg pills.

~~~
philwelch
1.75 mg is still almost an order of magnitude higher than the recommended dose
of 300 _micrograms_. Throw your pills away and get these instead:
[https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Naturals-
Melatonin-300-Tablet...](https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Naturals-
Melatonin-300-Tablets/dp/B000GG2I9O/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1532837902&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=melatonin+300+mcg&psc=1)

~~~
codenesium
If I take 300 micrograms I feel groggy the next day. I do half and that's just
right. It's crazy people are doing 3-10mg.

~~~
56chan4
Ideally a bedroom needs to be so dark that if you hold you hand up inches away
from in front of your nose, you cant see your hand in any way. You may also
want to consider good ventilation in the room, if CO2 levels get up to around
700ppm which can happen in a few hours of going to bed, you will also wake up
feeling less refreshed and groggy. Its why they have CO2 scrubbers in
submarines and why people feel more refreshed when camping under canvas.
Sleeping at the back of a large cave doesnt seem so bad now.

~~~
luc4sdreyer
> if CO2 levels get up to around 700ppm which can happen in a few hours of
> going to bed, you will also wake up feeling less refreshed and groggy

source?

------
cbs_vs_dbs
As someone who works from home 90% of the time and sleeps/works in a room with
a huge skylight, I've never had better sleep, energy, and overall
"consistency" with my body. The most notable issues being that I actually feel
sleepy when it's time to sleep, and I can fall asleep within minutes. I've
never really experienced that before.

I used to work nightshifts with mostly light-blocking shades, and the only
natural sunlight was the light that came in from the small gap above the room
partition (I lived in a flex room/living room). That set-up was the worst.

I've had various life variables and combinations of them, but aside from the
night-shift one, and obvious ones like constant sleep deprivation, it does
seem like sunlight is playing the next-most significant role in helping to
regulate my body and sleep.

~~~
dalore
That's ok if you're living close to the equator with a regular day/night
schedule. But if living more towards the poles then you get extremes in winter
and summer of how much light/darkness there is.

------
k__
I always dream much when taking Melatonin, which makes the sleep less
refreshing.

~~~
collyw
I thought that indicated REM sleep which is supposed to be the best type. (I
heard that alcohol and pot do the opposite,so you have less refreshing sleep).

------
amorphous
I have a very different sleep aid. A sleep headphone (a headband with speakers
woven into that also serves as an eye-mask) combined with white noise (quality
rain sound) served by an iPod. The white noise blocks outside sounds much
better than earplugs, and the rain soothes me into sleep (always loved it when
it rains outside and I'm in bed).

It has become a crutch for me, sometimes I do worry if I have become too
dependent on that arrangement, but it works well. In summer the headband can
get hot though.

~~~
senatorobama
Link to the headband product ?

~~~
amorphous
There are a lot of crappy ones or overpriced, it takes some trying out to find
a good fit. The ones I currently use are those:
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sleep-Headphones-Adjustable-
Comfort...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sleep-Headphones-Adjustable-Comfortable-
Relaxation/dp/B00XZCYQQ4/). Had also good experience with the provider, they
eagerly replace broken headphones.

------
foxyv
I will always sing the praises of Trazodone for dealing with sleep issues. It
worked extremely well for me and my parents. It's normally used at very large
doses as a last line for clinical depression. However at smaller doses it's an
extremely effective sleep aid for some people. It also doesn't make you to
sleepy like other drugs. It just makes getting to sleep easy.

------
Nihilartikel
The but about th optimal dose being 0.3mg is interesting. I've been nibbling
the corners of 3mg pills for years now, since the full strength always left me
with a weird sleep hangover, or I would end up bolt awake but still sleepy at
4am..

------
solarengineer
I've been practicing mindfulness meditation for a few weeks. I'm in week four
now, and I'm getting good results.
[https://palousemindfulness.com](https://palousemindfulness.com)

------
DougN7
What a great article. Explains why melatonin works for my wife for a short
time but then stops working (dosage in store-bought pills is too high and
stays in the system too long).

------
tananaev
I occasionally use Melatonin to help me sleep on planes or adjust to new
timezone, but I don't think it's a good idea to take it regularly.

~~~
sdrothrock
I'm curious since this is currently apparently the highest-upvoted comment --
does OP (or any upvoters) have any (preferably reference-backed) reasoning for
this?

Otherwise it's just an unsubstantiated knee-jerk reaction at the top of the
discussion.

I take melatonin once a week or so but haven't noticed any detrimental
effects, so I do have a stick in the game and would like to know about
potential issues if anything is out there.

~~~
tananaev
I don't have any studies to back it up, but I know someone who used to take it
every day and she said it's harder for her to fall asleep without it than it
used to before she started taking it. Naturally our body adjusts to anything
that we ingest.

------
gingerlime
Anyone knows why Melatonin is available so easily in the US, but you need a
prescription for it in Europe? (I haven’t asked my GP though)

~~~
lucd
No need for a prescription in France.

~~~
gordaco
Nor in Spain. I've been taking melatonin for quite some time, and so has my
mother. You just go to a pharmacy and buy it over the counter.

~~~
drakonka
A friend of mine was on rotation in Sweden from the US and went into the
pharmacy to ask for some melatonin to help with her jet-lag. She was very
sternly told that she needs a prescription for that here.

------
jaequery
anyone here tried breathing exercises to help with better sleep? i am noticing
that at times when i am taking deep and slow breaths before sleeping, i have a
dramatically higher quality sleep.

~~~
firic
I don't know why but whenever I did the technique where I tense and relax my
muscles I got nightmares.

------
ve55
Some related posts by the same author, some about drugs (SSRIs and Adderall),
some about other topics: [https://slatestarcodex.com/tag/much-more-than-you-
wanted-to-...](https://slatestarcodex.com/tag/much-more-than-you-wanted-to-
know/)

------
zawerf
It's always unclear whether you're reading crackpot or not especially around
the nootropics crowd.

In this case the author seems to be a psychiatrist so he should be
trustworthy:
[http://slatestarcodex.com/about/](http://slatestarcodex.com/about/)

------
baccheion
A good multivitamin stack (for example, AOR Ortho-Core + Life Extension D & K
in the morning and 4 Doctor's Best High Absorption Magnesium pills at night 5
days/week) is probably better than raw melatonin.

------
TACIXAT
I have cut out sugar and caffeine for dietary reasons and my sleep schedule
did not improve at all. I tried those red shift apps and they did not change
my sleep schedule. The last few weeks I was not working on my computer late at
night and got tired at a reasonable time. Now that I am back working on my
side project, having interesting problems to solve (one more feature before
bed!) and the bright screen, I am starting to stay up late again.

I notice when I do everything right I don't have a problem waking up before 8
hours. Normally I shoot for 8:30 and have trouble going to sleep and getting
up. Also when I am in a good sleep schedule I sometimes wake up in the middle
of the night, use the restroom, meditate if I'm awake enough, then go back to
sleep.

I am sad to say that with most of the other factors controlled, bright screens
are the likely cause of my sleep issues. This is hard for me because screen is
life.

~~~
themodelplumber
I'm not sure I understand, but I want to: Do you become engaged in a project
and fall asleep later because it's hard to drop the project, or do you become
engaged in a project and use a bright screen and the screen causes you
(through some screen-body interface mechanism) to fall asleep later?

~~~
TACIXAT
It is unknown to me, honestly. Most of the time I am simply not tired, which I
blame the screen for. When I do get tired I usually push it even later if I'm
working on something good.

------
IBM
What time should you take melatonin if you don't have any major sleep problems
but want to improve sleep quality?

~~~
RandomInteger4
Roughly 30 minutes before I hit the pillow works for me. I use the normal
melatonin (non-chews), but I suck on them till they dissolve in my mouth,
because I hate when they get stuck in my epiglottis; you get used to the
bitter flavor after a bit. I'm going to assume this is safe because chewables
exist.

~~~
jonhendry18
Why not just take it with a small amount of water?

~~~
RandomInteger4
Water isn't a magic lubricant. Pills still get stuck in my epiglottis with
water. Usually when I take pills, I do it followed by a piece of bread and
then water, but prior to bed I don't want to eat anything after brushing my
teeth and the pill dissolves nicely, and like I said, I assume it's safe,
because chewables exist (obviously other drugs don't work in a similar
manner).

~~~
jonhendry18
Ah. Have you tried butter, which _would_ be a lubricant? And it would probably
be relatively safe after brushing because of the lack of sugars.

~~~
RandomInteger4
Butter is delicious, but sadly it too lacks any fel or fey essence necessary
for magicks.

------
stealthmodeclan
When I was working long hours at an startup. My sleep cycle got disturbed.

Here is what works for me:

1\. Reduce room temperature to 25*C. Go to bed at 10:30pm

2\. Automatically shutdown the airconditioner at 4:30am.

3\. Jump out of bed at 5am without any alarm clock.

This habit continues in the month when no airconditioner is needed.

~~~
jonhendry18
_Reduce_ the temperature to 25C? What do you normally keep it at?

------
js2
Dupe from three weeks ago:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17505380](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17505380)

~~~
slaveofallah93
Looks like the author posted it on his personal blog, but also on the group
blog LessWrong, so the link avoided the filter.

~~~
tomhoward
The filter doesn't work several weeks later (or even days later AFAIK).

Also, the earlier submission didn't get a lot of comments (7) or votes, so a
second run is probably OK by the guidelines.

------
megaman22
Melatonin doses of the standard distribution seem great for crazy fucking
dreams, but little else.

Drinking two Rolling Rocks or PBR distilleries is more effective;

~~~
oceanghost
I did this for a decade. If you drink or smoke pot to sleep you will slowly go
mad. They suppress deep sleep.

~~~
goldmouth
This is true for alcohol but I'm not sure about cannabis.

In California, a heavy indica is a recommended by doctors for sleep. My
understanding is that it only affects R.E.M. sleeep.

Anecdotally, I track my sleep and when I smoked a heavy indica before bed I
would consistently get at high 80 to 90% sleep quality. I'm on a couple of
month tolerance break and have a hard time breaking 80% sleep quality.

~~~
joveian
I think you mean sleep efficiency here not sleep quality? Sleep quality isn't
possible to measure precisely without EEG and usually both deep sleep and REM
sleep are tracked (and both together are usually less than half of sleep).

I recently came accross Babson et al. 2017 Cannabis, Cannabinoids, and Sleep:
a Review of the Literature:

[http://www.med.upenn.edu/cbti/assets/user-
content/documents/...](http://www.med.upenn.edu/cbti/assets/user-
content/documents/s11920-017-0775-9.pdf)

There hasn't been that much research (and most is on synthetic cb1 and cb2
agonists, not cannabis, and is short term). cb1 and cb2 receptors have
different effects, and the dose (especially CBD) and length of use may both
make a large difference. IIRC (and maybe not from this particular review)
there is evidence that the same receptors may have opposite effects in
different parts of the brain. cb1 receptors have a major role in circadian
rhythm.

Some studies have shown increased slow wave sleep at least at first, but long
term use and withdrawal may have the same issues as GABA-A agonists. Your
current issues may be withdrawal effects or due to it helping or both.

Interestingly, the common anesthetic propofol inhibits an enzyme (FAAH) that
breaks down the endocannabinoid anandamide. It might work well to combine
endocannabinoid enhancers with other sleep aids (maybe melatonin), however
research on those seems aimed at pain relief and hasn't worked out so there
don't seem to be any good ones generally available. Pfizer did a Stage 1 sleep
trial of the FAAH1 inhibitor PF-04457845 (by itself), but only to make sure it
was passing the blood brain barrier. They didn't publish the results but it
sounds like they found at least slightly reduced REM sleep (I'm not sure if
there was increased deep sleep).

Some people have tried oleamide for sleep and it is a cb1 receptor agonist
(among many other things including some kind of GABA effect). It sounds like
it naturally accumulates during sleep deprevation. Looking online I have
mostly found people reporting no effect, although I did see one person with
primary insomnia who found it very helpful when cannabis wasn't. One person
reported feeling tired and dizy all the time after a few weeks of use
(resolving when they stopped) and the person who found it helpful said it felt
like it wasn't a good thing to take every day. It is worth noting that it may
have a fairly significant and direct dopamine system effect (vs indirect
effect of cannabis) and that is one of the most fragile parts of the brain.

