
HTC sues Apple over everything - taylorbuley
http://gigaom.com/apple/htc-sues-apple-over-everything/
======
Lewisham
At this point, I find it unfathomable that Congress doesn't seem to have even
noticed that the tech industry is imploding on itself with the ridiculousness
of it all.

Yes, they have lots of fish to fry right now, but if they can spend time
arguing about incandescent light bulbs [1], surely there must be some time on
the legislature to sort this mess out? The whole thing has turned from
skirmish into full-on war in less than a couple of years. I can't imagine how
much worse it's going to get.

[1] <http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58964.html>

~~~
Bud
If you're going to raise irrelevant political issues like lightbulbs, at least
place the blame where it belongs, which is not on "Congress" generally, but on
a few Texas House Republicans (Jo Barton in particular), who are idiotically
attacking the idea of having standards to increase energy efficiency.

Placing the blame on Congress generally spreads the incorrect belief that all
legislators and both parties are responsible for criminally stupid stuff like
this. They're not.

~~~
dantheman
Why is having standards on lightbulbs a federal issue? Shouldn't it be best
handled by the states? Perhaps the EPA or Department of Energy could write a
report or make recommendations; but at the end of the day it should reside in
the state.

~~~
mbreese
So you think that each state should have a light bulb plant? If not, then we
are talking interstate commerce, which means federal standards.

~~~
chc
It is not actually the federal government's job to regulate every detail of
every transaction that crosses state lines. The specifics of the lightbulbs
are only tangentially related to the commercial transaction and even less
connected to the fact that it crosses state lines, so I would hardly consider
Congress negligent if it declined to make rules for cross-state light bulb
shipping.

------
cletus
The problem with patents is fourfold:

1\. Large companies, as a whole, like them. So Republicans like them;

2\. Trial lawyers _definitely_ like them (software patents are the Lawyer Full
Employment Act in all but name). Many Congressmen are lawyers. The Democratic
Party is basically the political wing of the American Bar Association (eg it's
Democrats who oppose tort reform of any kind) so Democrats like patents too;

3\. They're currently being wielded by largely American companies. If American
companies were seen as being victimized by foreign companies it would be a
totally different political landscape; and

4\. America is such a large market that it affects both local and foreign
companies anyway so there is limited benefit to setting up shop elsewhere.

Personally I think (3) and (4) are the key to getting Congress to do something
but I suspect that by the time either or both happen, it'll be far too late to
fix.

America, as a whole, seems beholden to "old world thinking" when it comes to
intellectual property. Just look at the mess of lawsuits by the RIAA/MPAA
(being tantamount to legalized extortion), copyright treaties negotiated in
secret that want to put copyright infringement on the same level as terrorism,
the Obama administration infested with ex-RIAA lawyers and so on.

The collective ignorance with respect to IP by the courts, the executive
branch, the legislature and most people as a whole is staggering and until
that changes don't expect much to change.

~~~
fpgeek
Given that patents in non-US countries tend to be weaker and harder to get,
(3) is unlikely to change.

On the other hand, if America's growth stays anemic while Asia (and to a
lesser extent South America) keep growing (which seems likely), (4) will take
care of itself.

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wccrawford
Well good. The nuclear war has finally started. Once everyone is obliterated,
maybe some real change can finally be made.

Nobody is going to 'win' this war. Everyone who participates will be a loser,
and at this point, nobody can afford not to participate.

If there aren't some serious cease-fires real soon, this is going to be a
bloody battle.

In case anyone isn't following along: Imagine a scenario where every major
piece of electronics equipment has been banned from sale in the United States.

~~~
saturdaysaint
"Nobody is going to 'win' this war."

This is an existential crisis for the smaller companies, but it's simply
raising the stakes a little bit for Apple, who are making enough profit to
afford endless litigation.

The whole contest has numerous immediate benefits for Apple. Since they're
making the lion's share of the money in smartphones, they win simply by
raising the table stakes (i.e. litigation costs and court awards), which eat
up a disproportionate share of their competitors' profits. It's not outrageous
to think that their lawsuits pressured unprofitable Motorola to first threaten
to sue other licencees and then sell to Google under extortionist conditions.
I wouldn't be surprised if other struggling Android handset makers (LG?) moved
to the fixed cost of Windows Phone 7 over the headache of Android-related
litigation. Of course, the Motorola purchase incentivises _profitable_ Android
makers to hedge their bets on WP7, too.

In the end, I think that Apple will be pleased if the product of their
litigation is not to drive Android out of the market, but to create a phone
market much like the tablet market - the iPhone and then a mish-mash of odd
looking (to the average consumer) competitors.

~~~
marshray
_it's simply raising the stakes a little bit for Apple, who are making enough
profit to afford endless litigation_

No, Apple cannot overlook the possibility that the import and sale of some of
their own products is banned in the US. If that happened as a result of their
litigious adventuring, they'd have some real explaining to do to big
investors.

Look at what happened with Blackberry and NTP. The actual service (used
heavily by the US Government and no doubt patent judges) came very close to
being shut down. Probably someone gave the parties a good talking-to and
forced the settlement. But in this case, a suspension on the sale of _these
particular_ shiny devices is not an existential issue for anyone except
Apple's executives.

~~~
saturdaysaint
That's such a remote possibility that, yes, Apple can overlook it or at least
consider it a remote risk in their cost/benefit analysis. If anyone had the
patent position to keep Apple out of the market, rest assured that they would
have regardless of Apple's lawsuits. Compared to the potential benefits of
muddying the competitive field just as they make their first multi-carrier
U.S. launch with the iPhone 5, it's an extremely negligible potential cost.

~~~
marshray
It's not a "remote possibility". It's foolish to predict the results of
international quasi-legal panels and US judges and juries when it only takes
one claim on one infringing patent. Even newcomer HTC has stockpiled hundreds
of patents by now, some of which Apple has already been declared to be
infringing.

 _If anyone had the patent position to keep Apple out of the market, rest
assured that they would have regardless of Apple's lawsuits._

No, I don't agree with that at all. The vast majority of all patents are never
litigated and it's very rare that any large-budget manufacturer is actually
kept out of a market as general as mobile touch-screen phones.

Normally patents are ignored, occasionally they're pooled or cross-licensed.
Usually only trolls end up going as far as actually obtaining a suspension of
sales and imports, but even then their goal is payment.

This is what makes Apple's decision to start a "real" patent war with HTC (and
all Android makers by extension) so exceptional. Apple has as much to lose as
anyone.

------
nl
The thing about these patent suits is that they (almost) end up being settled
out-of-court in a cross licencing deal. The terms of the deal are (almost)
never public, which makes the patents seem more valid (the company can claim
they have been licensed for huge amounts of money the next time they sue
another company over them) .

The court cases are usually just a way of changing the bargaining position.

~~~
olliesaunders
_The court cases are usually just a way of changing the bargaining position._

What do you mean by this exactly?

~~~
wccrawford
The court cases are just a threat to get someone to go along with you. Just
like the cold war, where nukes were used as a threat... They're only effective
if you parade them around once in a while. If you don't remind people you have
them, they forget.

------
dman
In the year 2015 will it be possible for newcomers to start new businesses?
Patents seem to be reaching a point where companies are grabbing everything
that can be thought of and everyone arriving late to the scene is accused of
thoughtcrime. Someone more charismatic, persistent and eloquent than me needs
to start civil disobedience against patents.

~~~
gst
The Internet is global.

Of course you can start a business. You just need to find a way to charge US
customers from whereever you are (assuming that the credit card companies will
block you if you ignore US lawsuits).

Or you just ignore the US market and target the rest of the world. Actually
that's what already has partially happened in the banking/broker sector: Try
to open a broker account at one of the European brokers and they'll very
likely tell you that they don't want to have you as a customer because you are
US citizen or resident (just happened to me some weeks ago). Of course the
reason for the brokers aren't patents, but US regulations that would be too
much of a hassle.

~~~
dman
a) I found the comment about not being able to open accounts abroad very
interesting, proving that runaway legislation does have an incurred cost. In
the same vein one of the reasons George Soros gave for shutting down his fund
was that the cost of complying with legal requirements was too high. b)
Charging people remotely works for software but does not work for hardware
because imports of your products can be stopped for patent infringement. c) I
wonder if there is a precedent for company A going after your payment provider
for enabling patent infringement.

------
divtxt
Unfortunately, big companies with shipping products have every incentive to
settle by cross-licensing & royalties.

What we need is someone with deep pockets to form a patent troll and actually
block shipping products rather settle. This will force big companies to lobby
congress to fix software patents.

~~~
divtxt
Haha - fooled you!

If you tried this, you would probably fail!

The government (lobbied by big companies) will convince the courts to block
your injunction and force you to settle. You know, "risking national security
by ruining the economy" or something.

~~~
jrockway
HTC is a Chinese company, and Apple makes all their gadgets in China. This has
very little to do with the US, except that we are the ones paying for the
gadgets.

------
tjsnyder
I'm honestly afraid this is going to turn into another ridiculous partisan
battle in congress that ends up with a terrible solution because of
infighting.

~~~
marshray
Don't worry, a patent reform debate doesn't have the necessary television-
appeal to turn into a real partisan battle. Unfortunately, the powerful
interests it attracts may be even worse (for those seeking a non-terrible
solution).

------
6ren
Earlier phone patents
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_the_telephone#Pate...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_the_telephone#Patents)

and previous disputes
<http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/edison/section4.rhtml>

------
antrix
The original complaint & the actual patents if anyone is interested:
<http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/16/htc-sues-apple-patents/>

------
shriphani
Wasn't there that article about people not being able to focus? The result of
this patent war is that you will now be able to focus on whatever you're
doing. See, problem solved! Lawyers to the rescue !

------
dgregd
Majority of Congress are lawyers. Lawsuits like this help theirs colleagues to
make more money. They are not going to cut the branch their profession is
sitting on.

------
GHFigs
And not a single word about the patents themselves.

~~~
antrix
Here you go: <http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/16/htc-sues-apple-patents/>

------
jrockway
Once you start a nuclear war, the only possible outcome is death to everyone
and everything.

I for one welcome our new gadget-less future.

------
saraid216
Does anyone have links to the actual papers?

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napierzaza
So at this point every company has dirtied its hands with Software patent
suing. So I'm guessing pretty much nobody is about to try and stop the madness
since it would make them seem as if they are hypocrites or whiners (these
cases take forever to be resolved). Not sure any company out there is going to
do much of anything to stop it.

------
gcb
playing devils advocate here.

But when companies fight over patents, does't that mean that they are putting
money on R&D that will eventually drive all the field forward in the middle
term? even if at some cost on the short term... Apple and HTC are not /just/
patent trolls.

...I find my own argument hard to swallow, but i just thought i had to offer
ONE counter point to one patent posts on HN :)

