
Never accept a counter-offer - vtorosyan
https://vtorosyan.github.io/never-accept-counter-offer/
======
fecak
Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about
counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why
is that?

It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when
candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to
counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car -
which is why if you accept a counter you'll get calls and emails from the
recruiter saying it's "career suicide" (it isn't) and that you're making a
huge mistake.

Then they quote these stats. I've heard things like "90% of people who accept
counters leave the company in 6 months", and they might add "whether fired or
through resignation" just to throw some fear into the candidate. These stats
are pretty hard to find, and they should be, because companies don't report
counteroffers to some agency. They happen in the dark. It's only surveys, and
usually conducted by recruiting firms who have a vested interest in the
results.

Some counteroffers are a mistake, but the people who scream not to accept
coineroffers the loudest are the ones with the most to lose.

I've written about counteroffers as well, but didn't take the typical
recruiter path
([https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2014/02/19/counteroffers/](https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2014/02/19/counteroffers/)).

~~~
byoung2
My recruiter practically broke down in tears when I accepted a counteroffer in
2013. Counteroffers can be great tools to increase your salary, whether you
accept or reject them. In my case it was purely about money. I was making
$117k and I wanted a raise, but the company only wanted to give options. If it
were an early stage Google or Uber, I'd go for it, but not this company. I
wanted cash.

They played the old "not in the budget, lets revisit in 6 months game" but my
ace in the hole was an unsecured network share drive where I found an offer
letter for a coworker showing he made $135k. I was genuinely ready to leave so
I contacted my recruiter (who had placed me at 2 consecutive companies) and
she got me an interview at CAA (the Hollywood talent agency) as a node.js dev.
They beat my salary with an offer of $125k, plus some perks like 2 week
company shutdown around the holidays, half day before every gov't holiday,
generous bonuses and 401k match. The downsides were a commute to Century City,
and having to wear a suit everyday.

I went back to my employer and handed in my resignation and told them about
the offer. They came back (unsolicited) with a counteroffer of $140k and an
extra week of vacation. I took it and told my recruiter. She told me horror
stories about people who take counteroffers who get fired or quit within
months and how I would never work in this town again, etc.

I stayed at the company for 2 more years and was promoted to director of
engineering, and got raises to $155k and then $175k before resigning to work
freelance. On my way out the company was begging me to stay and I could only
imagine what they'd offer if I chose to entertain them.

~~~
technofiend
I worked at a savings and loan back during the 1988/1989 crisis that took them
out and we were no different. Hired as a 'C' programmer I was quickly turned
into a Sybase DBA, sys-admin and anything else I could handle. In fact I ended
up writing an in-house payroll system so like you I had inside information.

When the sys-admin left I asked for a raise since I was doing his job and my
own. They made some excuses about his better education (he was a few hours
away from his PhD in music) and the fact the company was under FDIC control.

I found a new job at a local oil company but contracting: my new salary was
more than double what the bank laid. My bosses exact words when I quit were
"Oh, shit" because he knew all along he'd been screwing me and he was never
going to get a programmer/DBA/UNIX sys-admin for $27k/yr.

He asked if he could make a counter offer it was with great satisfaction I was
able to reply "Vick, I now make more than you do. What's your counter offer?"

~~~
lucaspiller
I had a similar experience. I was brought on as a junior fresh out of
university and quickly made a name for myself in the company, I wasn't the top
developer by any means, but after a few years and a couple of pay rises, the
£32k/year they were paying me (in central London) was definitely much lower
than what I should have been getting.

One of my colleagues had the year before, and had recently got funding for his
startup. He offered myself and another developer a job, so we went to tell our
boss together who obviously wasn't too pleased. He then spoke to us separately
about negotiations, and he offered me £55k/year. The look on his face when I
said "Sorry, but they are offering me much more than that" was priceless.

A few years later (after all the team I'd worked with had left) I went back to
what was left of the company as a contractor for a few months. I was earning
more per week, than I was per month, when I first started.

------
archildress
This couldn't have come at a better time, as I just navigated this last week.
I kind of disagree with most of what the author is saying. Here's why.

The author posits that you've begun looking for a new job for a reason. There
are things that you dislike about your job. That's logical, and it's the
number one reason that I went on a search of my own.

The problem is that there's always some level of information asymmetry. You
know everything you dislike about your current job; you can't know what you'll
dislike about your new job until you begin that role.

However, once I was given another "great offer", it made me realize that part
of every job is disliking certain aspects of it. No matter where you are, it's
impossible to find a role that you like 100% of the time.

When I received another job offer, it made me realize that there were a lot of
things that I was taking for granted about my current job. And when I notified
my current employer that I was leaving, they reminded me of how valued I was
with the package that they put together. In fairness, they could've done a
better job with this throughout my employment.

At the end of the day, the compensation and future commitments (all of which
are in writing) made it compelling to me to stay and not risk disliking my
next role.

Have you ever heard the saying that you should flip a coin to make important
decisions, because as soon as the coin is in the air you'll know what you want
anyway? Well, I went through the coin flip process and realized I had taken a
lot of things for granted at my current employer. And that's why I stayed.

~~~
ryandrake
> And when I notified my current employer that I was leaving, they reminded me
> of how valued I was with the package that they put together.

Yea, you were so valued that they DIDN'T offer it to you until you threatened
to leave. That doesn't sound like an employer that values you, it sounds like
an employer who got away with a great bargain while it lasted.

~~~
andrewflnr
> Yea, you were so valued that they DIDN'T offer it to you until you
> threatened to leave. That doesn't sound like an employer that values you

This sounds insightful, but I don't think it's fair. It's almost always true
for everyone that you don't know what you have until it's gone, or almost gone
if you're lucky. Your employer is no different. Give them a break, just a tiny
one.

~~~
ryandrake
That's a lot of benefit of the doubt to give. More likely is that they know
exactly what they have, and have done the math. For every salary level, there
is a probability P that the employee will leave. If it costs $C to replace
them, then they are coming out ahead by paying you $N below market rate when N
> P x C.

EDIT: To be more exact, it's probably more like: N > [P(N) - P(market)] x C

~~~
jknoepfler
First, the cost of a valuable employee leaving is very, very high in terms of
their salary. The inefficiency in training someone to fill their shoes is
awful and risky, and good engineers are seldom fungible in any short-term
meaningful sense.

Second, this isn't how decisions get made on real-world software teams. In the
real world, you find yourself just working with managers who need to make
judgment calls with limited resources and time. Pursuing a raise for an
employee is expensive to do proactively. A valued employee leaving sends a
manager into crisis management mode, which expedites the process and helps
them prioritize it up whatever chain they report to. The manager (+chain) make
a judgment call about whether to make you a counter against a backdrop of
company policy.

Their failure to proactively get you a raise before you went seeking other
opportunities is usually due to a failure of communication, timing, or time
budgeting on both your and their part. You can't expect people to read your
mind and figure out if you think you're being paid what your time is worth.
Sometimes it's obvious (oh look, the last of X's stock grant just vested), but
usually it's not.

Your suggested envelope math might help inform general company policy, but it
doesn't inform day-to-day managerial decisions in any but the vaguest way.
Most management I've worked with has not been formally sophisticated; I
imagine this is the case in the industry broadly. Managers do not wake up in
the morning and consciously wonder "what do I need to do today... hmm... does
the marginal utility of working on a raise for X exceed the marginal utility
of writing this operational improvement plan?" They think "Is there a crisis?
If crisis, expedite. Otherwise check shit off checklist."

I told my most recent manager I was pissed off about my salary a few months
ago (after a year at the company). He got it kicked up the chain, I got up-
leveled at the next review session. It took him a lot of time and effort, it
netted me a large salary increase. I think we're happy with each other still.

------
throwaway4job
Counterpoint, I accepted a counter offer two years ago. Since then, I have
been promoted twice. I am now one of the highest-paid, and highest ranked
individuals in my organization.

Additionally, I have been given many opportunities specifically designed to
help me grow my career in the direction that I preferred. This has included
everything from project assignment, to introductions to board members and VCs,
to educational opportunities.

One must always be careful when considering a counter offer, however any
blanket advice stating to never accept is going to be wrong, and harmful.

~~~
gozur88
You got really lucky. Normally when a company extends a counter offer what
they're doing is buying time to ease you out on their terms.

~~~
slg
I always hear this, but where do you people work that this is the case? As
some who has been on the other side of the table this was never how it worked.
Losing a team member sucks. A counter offer is an attempt to avoid that. The
idea that your boss would secretly interview your replacement before firing
you just seems silly to me. At the most practical level doing something so
cold hearted would send every other member of my team searching for a job.

~~~
ryandrake
> Losing a team member sucks.

But being paid below market rate also sucks. By making a counter-offer and
having it accepted, you're now setting a precedent. All of that person's peers
will now see that the way to get a raise at this company is to constantly be
interviewing and threatening to leave. Is that the environment you're trying
to foster?

~~~
slg
I think the disconnect is that most people imagine their boss is allied with
their company against them. In reality they are a mediator between the two (or
maybe I'm in the minority with that line of thinking, but it is the best way I
can both do the job and sleep at night). I want everyone on my team to be paid
fair market value. I fight for it come budget time. If someone who I think is
underpaid comes to me with an offer, I will go to my boss for more money. If
someone who I think is fairly paid comes to me with an offer, I might simply
shake their hand and wish them luck. A counter offer is not guaranteed. It is
only offered to employees that we want to keep long term at whatever their new
rate would be.

Trying to get a raise with another offer is a bluff. You have to live with
that fact that you might be called on that bluff.

~~~
ryandrake
> Trying to get a raise with another offer is a bluff. You have to live with
> that fact that you might be called on that bluff.

I think you meant to say "without another offer". When you indeed have an
offer, it's not a bluff. Whether you get a counter or not, the outcome for you
is you win. Now, if you DON'T have another offer, but try to get a raise by
claiming to have another offer--well, that's an advanced tactic and very
risky.

~~~
slg
I meant it as I wrote it because it was in response to your original comment
below:

>the way to get a raise at this company is to constantly be interviewing and
threatening to leave

If your goal is to get a raise and keep your job, coming in with another offer
is a bluff. The way to get a raise at my company isn't to constantly be
interviewing because we won't counter offer everyone and we generally won't
offer repeated counters.

------
shaneos
I completely agree. I went through this at my first job 13 years ago. I was
hugely underpaid. I'd gotten the highest rating and highest raise each year
for two years, but still made barely more than new grads coming in as the job
market had improved.

I did a job search, found 10 jobs I was overqualified for that were offering
60% more money, and took the list to my manager as part of my argument for a
raise. For six months he delayed, said he was looking in to it etc, but in the
end said there was nothing he could do, he had no flexibility.

I found a different company that I liked, accepted their offer at about 60%
higher salary and told my manager I was leaving in two weeks. Within 24 hours
they had matched the other salary, and thrown in some stock too.

They could clearly have done this at any time in the past six months, when I
was pressing my manager on it every single week.

Of course I left. If you are worth the money, you should be paid the money,
and not have to beg for it. I was at the next company for a very enjoyable
four years, and even got promotions and raises without having to lobby for
them and explain my impact.

~~~
verbify
> They could clearly have done this at any time in the past six months, when I
> was pressing my manager on it every single week.

They had no incentive to.

I was recently in the same situation - doubled my salary after years at
another place.

Until you bring proof positive that you could bring in more elsewhere there's
no reason for them, there's no reason for them to take your word for it that
the market would pay you more.

Companies often rely on the sunk cost of employees laziness/sunk cost.

Depending on the company, if companies gave out raises whenever anyone asked,
they'd be broke pretty soon (this applies more to a company like Walmart that
relies on a lot of low-paid workers compared to Bell Labs).

> I was at the next company for a very enjoyable four years, and even got
> promotions and raises without having to lobby for them and explain my
> impact.

It's likely that you started working a lot harder at the second place. I know
I did.

~~~
adekok
> They had no incentive to.

It's usually cheaper to keep an employee than to hire and train a new one.

Sorry, as someone who runs my own company, such short-sightedness as seen
above is stupid.

I keep my employees happy, and make sure they don't want to leave. I get more
out of them than I would if they were underpaid, overworked, and treated like
shit.

~~~
67726e
I don't know you, but thank you for being a good boss.

I said this to a manager right before I quit. There are a million ways to
demotivate your employees and precious few ways to motivate them again.
Finding out that you've been totally screwed and then not having that fixed
will kill morale damn near instantly. The best managers I've had gave me a
fair shake and they had my loyalty.

At my first software job I worked there while I was going to school. I hated
the program for myriad reasons so I dropped out. At the time I was getting
paid hourly and there wasn't budget that year so my boss commuted my hourly
pay into a salary which ended up shafting me due to overtime, but promised to
give me a raise at the first review. He was a man of his word and gave me what
I perceived to be an insane raise (something like 60-70%). To my incredulity I
got another raise a year later of something like 30% and suddenly I'm a twenty
year old kid making more than anyone in my family.

Thing is it wasn't the money that earned my loyalty and hard work, it was the
fact that I knew I had people looking out for me and that I could trust. There
was many a day where I'd go to the office 6.00 - 16.00 or so, go to the gym,
go home and then get bored and go back to the office for an hour or two. I
sure as shit wouldn't have done that if my boss fumbled around and made
excuses, put things off. All of the great managers I've worked with knew that
if you treat folks with respect and treat them right, you get results and that
goes beyond salary. Simply having your manager come to you and point out
you've been busting your ass and should take a couple days off really kinda
clues you in that you're not just a widget factory.

------
thraway_perfin
The "never" bit seems like bad advice. Terrible advice, honestly.

I've worked happily at one of the "big" tech companies. Without going too much
into details, I ended up getting a really big offer from another one of the
big guys (i.e., in the seven figure range over 4 years, obviously with the
bulk of it being equity).

I was really torn. I was happy at my job, but that's a large enough of money
to make a material difference in the lives of my loved ones. And like a lot of
people here, I value the happiness of my family over my own.

I didn't expect my existing employer to do much. So I gave my boss an early
heads up this was happening, partly because I thought there was a small chance
there would, but mostly so I would leave on good terms.

Again, long story short, they not only matched the offer but came over the top
of it. I went home to think about, talked about it with my wife & decided the
next day to accept the counteroffer.

That was a few years ago. I've honestly been happy since then. I don't feel
this was ever held over my head or held against me. (To the contrary, I was
recently promoted.)

When it comes to counteroffers, a lot of it comes down to two things: 1) why
you were looking in the first place, and 2) how you handle things with your
existing employer.

Regarding (1) - if you were unhappy, money isn't going to fix that. Staying
just because of money is dubious at best.

Regarding (2) - the main thing is don't be an asshole. Nobody is going to hold
you advocating for your own best interests. Senior execs know the game. They
would do the same thing in your place (if they haven't already). If you're an
asshole, well, nobody wants to keep an asshole in the first place. But if
you're pragmatic & even–keeled, you don't damage the relationships (even if
you stay or go).

~~~
Cyph0n
That's amazing! Well done on pulling out off man :)

------
setr
"Let’s take an example and say that some Problem A has triggered a need of
change. As you are a good employee you have tried already to solve the problem
(e.g. you asked for more money or you tried to change the process), you
failed. Now, all of a sudden Problem A gets solved in just some 10 minutes.
Why wasn’t it solved before? How long will it take until this kind of a
Problem B will appear? When Problem B comes, it’s going to hit harder. Things
won’t change."

This paragraph bugs me. It's as if the author assumes the workplace to be
swarmed with malicious agents, and you, some ambitious, innocent and pure-
hearted employee.

Why wasn't it solved before? Because it was cheaper to leave it unsolved.

Suddenly, you introduce a _significant_ cost to leaving the problem (your
leaving the company), and so it gets resolved.

And whaddyaknow, it'll happen at any other company too because its pretty damn
effective way to operate a business.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Its only a problem if you assume a supportive employer, one that is looking
out for your productivity and success. When you find out your company is only
in it for the money, it can be a shock.

I agree its wrong to moralize about it. This is business. You sell your skills
for cash. You should be prepared to get the best deal you can. Just asking
meekly is a losing gambit. It will take more than that to put wheels in motion
(get considered for a raise). Like showing an offer you received.

Now, that said, my son works as an ME at a contract house. The company owner
threatens that anyone even looking for a job will be fired summarily.
Childish. It just means resentment simmers, and nobody gives notice which has
to screw up schedules and hurt their bottom line.

~~~
DominikR
> Its only a problem if you assume a supportive employer, one that is looking
> out for your productivity and success. When you find out your company is
> only in it for the money, it can be a shock.

You know what really would be a shocker to me? A company that isn't in it for
the money or a company that isn't trying hard to have employees that are
highly productive.

~~~
ufmace
Eh, you could make the argument that the company makes more money in the long
run by keeping the most productive employees with the most institutional
knowledge around long-term, which requires really paying attention to what
they want before they start looking elsewhere, keeping up with what market
rates are and giving raises and bonuses appropriately, etc. As a rational
business owner, would you rather pay out an extra $25k or whatever a year to
keep your team intact, or let people leave and suffer months of lost
productivity potentially worth many times more, paying recruiter fees of up to
$20-30k for the replacement, a few more months of degraded productivity while
the new guy ramps up, and still be paying that extra $25k on their salary
anyways, because you wouldn't be able to hire anyone otherwise?

It's essentially a cultural thing. Many employers and employees only want to
get/keep as much money as possible in the short term, and don't care about
anything else. Others care about long-term relationships, stability, and
realistic plans, and are willing to sacrifice a little short-term money for
it. I'm not here to say either one is better, but do know which one you want,
watch out for signs that anyone you do business with doesn't have the same
values, and treat them accordingly.

~~~
corecoder
When it comes to business owners, rationality is overrated. I've seen a lot of
companies that are perfectly happy hiring a less competent dev that accepts
20% less, and takes more than twice the time to do the work.

~~~
ufmace
There certainly are plenty of companies out there like that. I tend to think
that generalizing like that is dicey, though. The good, well-managed companies
out there tend to keep the same developers for a long time, and any that leave
tend to not have many complaints. The poorly managed companies tend to churn
through lots and lots of developers, many of whom will go on to write blog and
forum posts on how irrational and cutthroat business is. Thus the noise about
poor management is louder than the reality.

~~~
corecoder
Everything you say is correct; I wonder if there's a way to tell how many well
managed companies are there and how many poorly managed ones.

------
user5994461
> employees who accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an
> average of 15 months.

15 months MORE. Damn. I wish I could stay that long in a single company.

Either the project is long finished, or the startup went bankrupt, or the
entire department is redone, or there is somewhere else offering a significant
raise, or...

Sometimes, I wonder what's the average tenancy for competent employees in a
hot tech hub.

~~~
nostrademons
I've heard it's about a year in Silicon Valley.

~~~
pkaye
In my own experience, I see an average of 3 years. Then there are those who do
short stints and more on while others will stick around as long as things are
interesting. Also the length of projects vary from industry to industry. When
I was doing hardware/firmware, an average project was 2-3 years long so people
would atleast stick through that.

------
daniel_iversen
I'd like to suggest a rule of thumb from the employer's/manager's side that I
was given by a mentor once (and I've seen the consequences anecdotally both
when I followed it and when I didn't);

Just like the article suggests not to accept a counter offer I'd say don't
ever GIVE a counter offer (or try to keep the employee resigning).

Of course always treat your people well and try your best to resolve issues
and keep on top of their aspirations and desires but when they've already made
up their mind to resign and they actually resign rarely (in my limited
experience) can anything good come from you persuading them to stay because:

A) they'll likely leave anyway within 1-1.5 years B) they might never actually
have left and they're using very poor/immoral negotiation tactics C) it sends
a horrible sign to the other employees saying they (only) get ahead if they
threaten to resign

And you have to be pretty fil with whatever your convictions are here I
believe. So in my view the article is right - never accept a counter offer (I
did once and while it was a bit promotion it was a huge mistake) but also
never give one!

~~~
thembones
Giving counter-offers is just as bad as accepting, you're right. This has been
written on as well, [http://bramcohen.com/2011/12/04/never-make-counter-
offers](http://bramcohen.com/2011/12/04/never-make-counter-offers)

------
udev
I don't know what triggered the author to write this, possibly a personal
experience.

But whatever it was, he seems convinced that he has seen the light, and even
distilled the message to "Never accept a counter-offer", which is nothing but
a loud, attention grabbing, media-optimized title, but also, ultimately too-
general-to-be-useful type of advice.

The text itself is lacking useful information, maybe with the exceptions of
the link to the surveys.

As I get older I observe how smart people tend to put in a large amount of
work before they feel ready to disseminate their carefully created, validated,
humble in scope, and very often valuable message.

This is the opposite of that.

------
evo_9
I accepted a counteroffer once and it ended up being a huge mistake. The
company was struggling and they felt they couldn't lose me etc, it was near
the end of the year and everyone was already upset because it was announced
that we wouldn't receive end of year/xmas bonus'. After I accepted the
counter-offer I was at a lunch xmas party for our team (around 15 of us) and
one person said to 'thank god this isn't a going away lunch for rick (me).',
to which everyone was like 'you were going to leave???'. I was the tech lead
so this news hit the other devs hard... at some point i was chatting with a
few different employees (non-devs) and they said to me 'so you had to go get
another job to force them to give you a raise, good move', to which I just
smiled and didn't know what to say back and finally threw out 'I suppose so'.

The next work day - monday 12/24 - I'm working from home and I get a call from
HR; they fired me over the phone on xmas-eve, apparently the 3 employees I had
the late conversation with went to HR and claimed I was bragging about the
raise and that the only way to get a raise at the company was to get another
job and threaten to leave. No amount of explaining that's not happened would
appease them, and as they put it they had '3 peoples word against just you'.

So yeah I will never accept a count-offer again!

~~~
stuxnet79
Bummer, what a terrible outcome. This is why I always mind my business and
abide by the 'your co-workers are not your friends' dictum.

------
alkonaut
I once was moving out of the city where I was employed, so naturally looked
for opportunities where I was moving. The city I was moving to was larger and
had nearly 50% higher salaries.

When my boss realized I was moving, he offered me to work remotely. I said I
had already accepted the new offer, and left. Boss said I was always welcome
back if I changed my mind (The idea of a big raise never came up at this
point). A year later, the old boss contacted me and offered me to work
remotely, and matched the salary of the bigger city I was living in, so I
signed back to the old company with a deal that was likely better than what I
could have gotten had accepted to stay initially.

Bottom line is: \- Keep good relations with employers where you like working:
\- A good way of getting a raise might sometimes be leaving and then
returning.

------
robbiemitchell
A note of agreement:

The money is a symptom. Even if your current employer counteroffers, the fact
that you got them to cough up the extra dough doesn't change the fact that
they didn't value you enough to retain you with it in the first place.

If money/title/growth/etc. are important, and you've made it clear to your
manager sufficiently, and they still don't act: go. The counteroffer won't
change the underlying dynamic, and its other symptoms will continue to
manifest.

~~~
merpnderp
It's not that they didn't value you, it's that you made an agreement to sell
your services at a given price. If you no longer like the agreement let them
know. Anyone worth working for won't have hard feelings that you've decided
you're worth more.

Labor is part of a market where people get to decide how much their labor is
worth. Take full advantage of that, as employers certainly will.

------
tptacek
I'm not a recruiter (anymore?) and I will say that I think the advice in this
post is pretty important. I've had two bad experiences with being tainted
after accepting a counter, and the logic behind why that happens is extremely
straightforward.

Clearly, there's a lot of dramatic license built into the word "never" in the
title (a less baity title would be "Be wary of counter-offers"). Clearly,
there are employers that will make counters in good faith hoping to retain you
for the long haul. But business is business, and many employers, even very
good ones, aren't going to make irrational decisions just to be nice.

~~~
fecak
I think it's important to differentiate what type of counter it is and whether
or not it solves the problem reasonably. A counter can be a pay raise, new
role/promotion, or even something like letting someone telecommute. Those are
all very different scenarios, and the stereotypical "walks into managers
office with shiny offer from competitor demanding more" may have less positive
long-term results than the more common less aggressive approach.

~~~
tptacek
I once accepted a counter that included a pay raise, a substantial equity
grant, and had my requirements for role adjustments mostly met --- all offered
entirely to prevent me from moving to a new job.

I shouldn't have! Things were O.K. for about six months, and only then did it
clear that I'd been sidelined --- after the company had put in motion its
plans for post-me continuity. Basically: they bought themselves time, and used
it to deal with the presumption that I would inevitably leave.

The specific terms of a counter don't mean much. The problem is that declaring
your intent to leave can (maybe: usually does?) mark you as a flight risk.
Flight risks get managed differently.

If what you value about your job is compensation, that might not matter!

But if what you want is escalating levels of responsibility, being perceived
as a flight risk is a real problem.

~~~
wyclif
_Flight risks get managed differently_

Assuming a large percentage of software developers leave for new gigs every
2-3 years, even in the best companies [that is an assumption on my part; I
don't know if it's true or only anecdotal], why do you think the overhead for
"flight risk" is so high? I mean, getting tagged as someone heading out the
door is a temporary situation for most devs, not a long-term debilitation.

~~~
MagnumOpus
Ideal situation is to have contingencies in place for every member of the
company. Realistically it is relatively easy to have backups for producing
employees where there are multiple in a team anyway - devs, ops, designers -
than for managerial employees. (Managers groom their own backups iff they want
to get promoted.)

So if you are a flight risk, you are unlikely to become a manager or given any
additional "unique" responsibilities in terms of tech-lead or customer-facing
work, unless your skills are really extraordinary and indispensable (and
usually they aren't).

------
ryandrake
Do you want to keep working in a place where the only way to get a substantial
raise is to threaten to quit? Accepting a counter-offer basically encourages
this bad behavior on the part of companies, and I would not accept one on
principle. When you get a counter-offer, whatever they say, you should be
hearing "Ahh, we got away with paying you this little for so long--now I
suppose we have to pay you market rate."

~~~
setr
What it's more of is that your rate of pay-raise doesn't actually match the
market-rate. You were hired presumably at market rate, and your pay has
presumably gone up/down based on a percentage of that initial rate. Especially
if the market is volatile, there'll eventually be a significant discrepancy.

And now you have some new company who _is_ paying the market rate, in other
words, evaluating your position against the total market. Your company, which
was at best evaluating your position within their own corporation, is now
forced to do a market-scale re-evaluation. With the poaching offer as the
baseline, since you've been tagged by _someone_ as being worth that much (and
willing to pay it).

And now you've got a big boost in pay. Not because your C_Os were gathering
together in the dark halls of the Bedlam basements, black robed, circled
around the _Sefer Raziel Ha-Malakh Liber Razielis Archangeli_ , poring over
your _employee review_ , whispering amongst themselves "yes, yes, he's a quiet
man; he won't complain and he won't tire; give him a penny more and he won't
trouble another year; _the fucking fool_ ".

All it is is that there was never a reason to do more work than necessary. And
no reason to pay more than necessary.

Y'know, don't programmers have a similar saying?

------
zxcvvcxz
I will have to disagree with this on the following grounds:

1) As others have pointed out, look who's doing the suggesting. Recruiters
profit from your movement between jobs, hence they will always
encourage/justify it. This prioritizes their interests, not necessarily yours.

2) You were thinking of leaving, then the employer gave you a reason to stay.
Sometimes life isn't worth overthinking: you got what you wanted through
negotiation (your willingness to leave), so enjoy it!

Now that's not to say things always go well with this scenario. A counter-
offer is not something I would want to normally do as an employer. It sets a
bad precident: if I value you as an employee and my cost of replacing you is
very high, you can just threaten to leave an get an automatic salary bump.

Furthermore, when word gets around (and it probably will...) my other
employees might not be so happy that someone got an ad-hoc performance review.
Now everyone wants their contract re-evaluated.

It's tough, and not black-and-white.

------
jlgaddis
On the other side of this, I accepted a counter-offer and enjoyed another four
or so years at the company, finally leaving after being there almost eight
years.

Never say never.

------
jimmywanger
Counteroffers are poison for both the employee and the company.

The employee now knows that he could have gotten the same thing the employer
is now offering before the counteroffer.

The employer knows that the employee is spending a non-trivial amount of time
to interview and talk to other employers.

I agree there should be no trust here, but we are conditioned to think that
there should be.

Exceptions aside (and you don't know if you're in one of those exceptions), a
counter offer allows you to exist in a poisoned relationship for a few more
months.

~~~
robalfonso
Some times office policies prohibit giving employees good raises and
precipitate an environment where a counter offer is necessary to get a good
pay bump. The act of the employee looking elsewhere usually removes those
internal handcuffs.

Its not always about shafting an individual so much as managing the entire
business.

This can also be wholly subjective to the company, culture, boss, and
employee.

~~~
imagist
> Its not always about shafting an individual so much as managing the entire
> business.

I read this as: It's not always about shafting an individual so much as
shafting all the employees who will let you shaft them.

~~~
robalfonso
I don't think of my employees this way,in fact I just had one raised to the
new "average" because it turned out they didn't negotiate well and were below
average ( not my hire, just now my report) - it was a 12% raise.

Play devils advocate and see how a "mega corp" runs things. If you could pay
everyone discretionally (ie decided by mid level manager) you'd be out of
business tomorrow. Those companies keep cost controls just because they are so
large. Larger businesses offer more employee security, but there is also less
chance for financial growth. The counter offer is essentially a hack on the
system.

~~~
imagist
> I don't think of my employees this way,in fact I just had one raised to the
> new "average" because it turned out they didn't negotiate well and were
> below average ( not my hire, just now my report) - it was a 12% raise.

That's very good of you.

> Play devils advocate and see how a "mega corp" runs things. If you could pay
> everyone discretionally (ie decided by mid level manager) you'd be out of
> business tomorrow. Those companies keep cost controls just because they are
> so large.

This is true, and a clear indictment of large corporations. Unsuprisingly,
this logic only applies to the lower end of the pyramid, however--upper-level
management rarely chooses to put cost controls on their own pay.

------
ChicagoDave
I would say that before you consider all offers, you should be aware of your
circumstances. Are you integral to your current company? Do you have an open
relationship about your career with your current employer? Do you like your
current job? Are the benefits something you think about regularly (4 weeks
leave time, work from home, fully covered health insurance)?, having
researched pay for your level of experience, where are you? (knowing this is
critical). If you're on the low end, ask your employer why. If you do get
offered a new position, is "total compensation" better (salary - taxes,
medical, dental, leave time, additional benefits)? If offered a bonus,
remember you have to pay taxes on it.

I tend to agree with the rule "don't entertain counter offers", but if you
think you may get one, discuss it directly. A lot of employers will be very
honest about your total comp and why they level you there. It's often about
their own costs, their own "grid" of salaries, and because they have a
"system", they can't really pay you more unless you're promoted to management.
It could be about you and if that's the case, they probably view you as
expendable and you should almost certainly move on.

Whatever you do, try to minimize the emotions and focus on all of the tangible
aspects.

------
PhasmaFelis
My father once received a pre-emptive counteroffer.

Basically, he did his job well and took on steadily increasing
responsibilities as the company expanded rapidly, and in five years he went
from a minor role in a small business to a critical role in a large business.
One day his bosses suddenly realized that their senior system administrator
was working for peanuts and any of their competitors would love to have him.

They gave him a 50% raise on the spot. He hadn't even been thinking about
other work.

------
hodgesrm
"Never" seems awfully absolute. For me at least the decision would depend on
the terms of the counter-offer.

~~~
protomyth
The article has this near the end:

 _There are always exceptions, even more, there are cases when accepting a
counter-offer is a right decision (your cat dies and you need bunch of money
to save her)._

------
oneeyedpigeon
I've had a counter-offer at each of the jobs I've resigned from. Neither got
much beyond the stage of "Would you stay for more money?". The first, I gave
my employer the courtesy of saying I would think on it overnight, although my
mind was already up (but you never know). The second I judged not _as_ serious
an offer. Neither time I left was it about the money, anyway.

It did make me curious. I think an alternative way to read it (as opposed to
the "why didn't I get this sooner?" attitude from the article) is "why didn't
I ask for a pay-rise sooner?". This has made me more confident in dealing with
employers; I'm about to ask my current one for a rise and I think I'll get it.

It's quite nice to leave it open-ended, too. If an employer dangles the
promise of 'more money' in front of you, but you don't actually go into
details, you can always fantasise that it was going to be twice as big as it
actually was. That way, you'll probably aim higher in future than if you'd
found out the full details.

------
losteverything
Got called into SVP' office. "Oh Crap," I thought. Marched into secure Exec
area.

SVP:Is Joe Blow good?

Me: yes. Critical

SVP: why?

Me: runs acqusition system. Only one that knows it. Smart too

SVP: thanks.

\-- I left with my escort and called my boss. "What was that about?" said Joe
quit and his salary request to stay needed Executive approval. So SVP asked to
talk to someone who directs his work (me).

~~~
kdamken
That's a cool story. It's nice that you were able to help a coworker like
that.

------
UseStrict
I accepted a counteroffer with mixed results. I was given an offer at a
company in Europe which pretty closely matched my salary and perks. It came
with a small pay bump but most importantly, extra vacation time and a solid
relocation bonus. I had submitted notice with my current employer, who gave me
a counteroffer matching the money, increasing my holidays and giving me the
ability to work remotely from wherever I chose. I accepted the counteroffer
because I still liked the company I work for and they now were meeting my
other requirements.

About 6 months later I was planning my relocation when I was notified by HR
that they would not be fulfilling that part of my contract citing nothing but
"legal requirements." I have been intensely bitter towards them ever since.

~~~
justin66
You still work for them?!?

------
craigvn
I generally agree. Unless the reason for leaving is just money those reasons
have not gone away by accepting a counter offer, and your current employer's
expectations of you will probably change markedly after a large (from their
perspective) pay increase potentially making the situation worse.

------
plan6
I get not accepting a counter-offer, although I know one employee that took a
counter-offer that was insanely good and has been in golden handcuffs ever
since, but couldn't be doing better financially.

However, I think that retention agreements and other "bonuses for staying on"
can be helpful, even though I think that really what employees want typically
are positive changes that would keep them from leaving (like firing a terrible
manager or changing a policy) that cost less than retention agreements or
counter-offers in many cases.

The best case is never to get in this situation by paying really well, hiring
really well, and firing bad employees when necessary.

------
kardashian007
To clarify: it may come off as expecting mind-reading if hypothetical employee
doesn't raise deal-breaker Problem A through channels first. If all channels
are exhausted, then sure, move along away from a shop that can't/won't remedy
underlying issue/s to a more civilized place that tries harder to make the
work community as enjoyable and productive as reasonably possible.

Finally, two points: both avoid perpetual grass-is-always-greener-itis and
there is an always-moving trajectory for both the organization and each
contributor, best to leave at the right time to maximize effectiveness and
rewards.

------
ptero
If a counter-offer (or the reason you interviewed with other companies) is
about money, accepting it is IMO a bad idea -- the company wants to minimize
the pain of your leaving _now_ , not the pain of your leaving in general.

If you want to change what you do (coding to management, UI to AI, etc.) and
the management offers you good options to consider, this is likely to be a
genuine desire to keep you working for a company in whatever capacity. In this
case accepting it should not put you on a path to the door.

------
mtmail
"I have seen researches showing that more than 90% of the employees who
accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15
months."

Can you add a link to those studies?

~~~
vtorosyan
Thanks for pointing it out. I've added a link and removed the number as
actually there are different studies with different numbers.

Here are few other resources of such examples

[http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/jobs/counter-offer-
could...](http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/jobs/counter-offer-could-be-at-
your-peril-survey/articleshow/53275324.cms)

[http://thevetrecruiter.com/news/a-perfect-case-study-for-
not...](http://thevetrecruiter.com/news/a-perfect-case-study-for-not-
accepting-a-counter-offer/)

[http://www.careercast.com/career-news/pros-and-cons-
countero...](http://www.careercast.com/career-news/pros-and-cons-
counteroffers)

~~~
fecak
Look at how poorly these articles describe the surveys. One mentions a
Pittsburgh recruiting firm - they couldn't even give the firm's name? These
surveys are mysterious - nothing even on sample size.

------
antirez
I guess that if you want to go because salary is low but otherwise the work is
fine, accepting a counter-offer is the best thing you can do :-) However if
one does not like the company, to stay for the money may not be a good choice.
However this is also true when you have to manage people, it's _hardly_ a good
thing to force people to stay at your company if they are unhappy, unless they
just want to make more and they deserve it.

------
erik_landerholm
Yeah, except most of the time, in my experience, employees rarely try to solve
problem A. They may say something or be passive aggressive, but quickly give
up and become disgruntled.

As someone who has been an engineer at all levels and now an exec at a public
company, I rarely give counter offers in this situation. I think there are
some cases where it can work, but in most cases; if someone wants to leave,
you wish them the best and move on.

------
DominikR
Okay, so if I were to believe what this person wrote, in specific that no one
is going to profit from accepting counter offers and that on top of that the
relationship between employer and employee will alway get worse and that there
will be lots of apathy then I have to ask why would any employer ever make a
counter offer?

What do they have to gain from an employee that hates working from them?

> Now, all of a sudden Problem A gets solved in just some 10 minutes. Why
> wasn’t it solved before?

Because this employee is very likely a weak person in this regard. If it can
be solved within ten minutes then it is very likely that you would have been
able to get what you wanted without threatening to quit your job.

The one thing that I agree on is that one should follow through on his
decisions, but this shouldn't be done in an irrational way. You usually decide
to do something because you want some kind of improvement. If it is possible
to reach an agreement with your current employer that gives you exactly that
then why shouldn't you accept?

------
hota_mazi
Anyone who gives you absolute advice like this one has a hidden agenda.

Except me, right now.

------
pugworthy
Some counter offers are easy to reject. A while back I applied to another part
of the company for a position that was a promotion, and got offered the
position.

My manager, who was notified (inner company), comes to me and says, "Hey, if I
could get you the promotion, would you stay? Even though I don't think you
deserve it?"

"Mmm... no thanks."

------
johnward
I've taken 3 counter offers at the same company. Will probably do it again if
my current job search goes well. In a company like mine you can't just ask for
a raise and expect to get it. However, if a key resource resigns wheels start
turning. All the sudden they can give significant increases. Otherwise you
grind it out year after year hoping for 3% but some people get nothing. I'm
going to hate my life no matter the job. So I will work for the highest bidder
or most leave time.

------
dredmorbius
Five letters: BATNA

What is your best alternative to a negotiated agreement?

In _any_ negotiation, with _any_ party, your strength lies in your ability to
walk away. If a vendor isn't offering you the product, or features, or price,
you want, then having the alternative to walk elsewhere gives you strength.
It's what lies at the foundation of the concept of a competitive market
(though there are other elements as well, many involving information access).

Businesses, and recruiters, such as the one offering this exceptionally poor
advice, have far more data, _and far more experience_ than any given single
worker in engaging in labour negotiations. Hell: _It is their core
competency._

Accepting the terms of an employer or recruiter _in engaging in the battle
directly_ is the worst possible thing you can do. Which includes this still-
born advice to never accept a counteroffer.

Are there counteroffers you _shouldn 't_ accept? Yes. Are there counteroffers
you _should_ accept? Yes. You'll find discussion in this thread on both sets
of circumstances.

(A general guideline: if it's the money that's been what's making you unhappy
at a given job, go for it. If it's been other matters, that is what you should
be negotiating on, though sweetening the pot doesn't hurt either.)

The degree of ignorance exhibited by far too many technologists on the
concepts of negotiating, power, leverage, and advantage is vast. I include
myself. I can only suggest: go out and start studying the literature,
including Machiavelli, Hobbes, J.K. Galbraith's _The Anatomy of Power_ , and
books on sales and negotiation. I'm finding older works from the late 19th and
early 20th centuries particularly informative -- there's much more openness
about direct tactics, and a distinct lack of embarassment in discussing them.
More recent material can be useful and will show additional tricks, and
advances in psychology, but I find that the traditional insights themselves
are quite telling.

Michael O. Church has much to say on the inequalities, including overt
blacklists, which exist within Silicon Valley and elsewhere, which may be
illuminating: [https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2016/04/18/what-i-
fough...](https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2016/04/18/what-i-fought-for/)

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negoti...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement)

~~~
fecak
I'm pretty sure the author of this story isn't a recruiter, no?

~~~
dredmorbius
Per his posted bio, no, so I'd flubbed that. From discussion on page and
reading the article, that wasn't clear.

Note that recruiters, founders, and hiring managers can have similar biases
though.

------
omahlama
Accepting the counter offer may not be a great strategy, but listening to it
is. When changing jobs the last time, my old employer offered a salary bump to
keep me. When I told this to my new employer, they immediately offered to
match the salary. I ended up making more money than I would have otherwise.

------
tomp
> I have seen surveys showing that majority of the employees who accepted a
> counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15 months.

So? That stat is quite meaningless without a control group. I.e. how long does
a typical emplyoee stay with a company? Probably not much more than 15 months
on average...

------
alex-yo
Yea, funny. I'm looking for a job now.

The most funny thing is that I get no counter-offer. I always here (or rather
read) "yes, we are impressed by your experience, it is really great, but you
know, you wanted too much, we have lots of others who want much less". When I
asked for a counter offer I get either no reply, or something like "We don't
give counter offers at this moment, you wanted much above the average that we
pay".

And I wanted just about the same money I was earning in my previous job.

From my perspective the job hunt is a one shot thing. I give some figure, they
stop being interested. No negotiation, no counter-offer, no other things.

So it seems like the market is not that good for programmers, or I'm just so
unlucky.

~~~
Waterluvian
I mean no insult by this: were you possibly paid more at your previous
employer than the market thinks you're worth?

~~~
UK-AL
There can be huge variations in the market.

------
smileysteve
> "I have seen researches showing that more than 90% of the employees who
> accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15
> months."

In an industry where the average tenure is about 23 months; this seems neither
surprising nor alarming.

------
george_ciobanu
I agree with you in spirit but I have a friend who got A LOT more money for
just two years. He thinks it was worth it and I agree. Your rule holds unless
there's a lot of money (or some other compensation) that makes it worth it.

------
niccaluim
Counter offers are a little silly. People in our industry are already making
far above the median, which makes it extremely unlikely that money is the
motivation behind resignation. More often it's a bad manager—there's a saying
that people don't quit jobs; they quit bosses—uninteresting work, change in
direction, or some other environmental factor. If you're going to make someone
a counter-offer you should also be sure to address the real issue that caused
them to want to leave in the first place, or they're just going to leave after
a short time anyway.

~~~
nbb
> People in our industry are already making far above the median

Well, half of them are.

~~~
wtracy
The median income in the US (in 2014) was $29k. The median salary for a
software engineer is supposedly $95k. That's more than triple the overall
median.

Sources:
[https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html)
[https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-
salary-...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-
SRCH_KO0,17.htm)

~~~
vonmoltke
That's the average salary for a software engineer, not the median. Also, the
SSA site uses "net compensation" for their numbers, which they define as
"compensation (wages, tips, and the like) subject to Federal income taxes, as
reported by employers on Form W-2" and "includes contributions to deferred
compensation plans, but excludes certain distributions from plans where the
distributions are included in the reported compensation subject to income
taxes". It is not clear to me how that maps to salaries reported on Glassdoor.

~~~
wtracy
I could have sworn that page said median, not average. Thanks for the
correction.

------
csvarona
It really depends on the reason you're leaving. For example: if you were
leaving because of mismanagement, then a counter-offer without any promise for
change in management will not be enough.

------
cloverich
> When it’s all about a feeling, things are hardly going to change even with a
> great counteroffer, so staying in the same place because now you have a free
> public transport ticket is just an apathy. That feeling will stalk you
> forever, it will make the relationship between you and your employer worse
> and there will be no winning side.

Does anyone have any personal stories about this -- having no hard /
defensible reason other than not feeling right -- and leaving? How did it work
out for you?

------
beefsack
I accepted a counter-offer which contained a significant amount of equity, and
has now paid itself off multiple times over.

I feel you can't give black-and-white advice on this.

------
LyalinDotCom
I'm a bit surprised this thread is getting this much attention. Honestly there
is no magic answer to stuff like this, it always "depends".

------
jredwards
Did anyone else find this article borderline incoherent?

------
enneff
A better way of looking at this is to be honest with your employer about your
happiness in your role. Feel like you're not paid enough? Not challenged?
Difficulty with teammates or manager? Raise these issues. If you are not taken
seriously, then you know you are in the wrong place, and can look for
something else without even needing to consider entertaining a counter-offer.

------
VertexRed
I don't know about you people, but if I received a counter-offer which
involved an unlimited amount of free snacks I'd take it.

------
rickmak
If a boss give counter offer without providing road map on solving your
concern. I agree the counter offer should reject.

But there is chance, counter offer can be change of department. Which can be
different story.

If just money raise, I think the don't really want to solve your problem. But
just don't want to hire a new one. Everyone know hiring is difficult. Hiring
is boss problem.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
> _If just money raise, I think the don 't really want to solve your problem._

What if your problem is that you wanted more money?

------
throwaway2016a
We had a couple people accept our counter offer then use it as leverage to get
a better third opportunity a couple months down the road.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Which is ok. Every paycheck is a renewed offer to stay. Every employee should
periodically reevaluate their employment deal, and survey whether a better
deal is available.

Folks like to throw in 'loyalty' and 'responsibility' here. But I've never
seen a company mention those things at layoff time. It has to be a two-way
street.

And even if a company _does_ try to be 'loyal' to employees by renegotiating
terms during economic hard times (job-sharing, reducing hours etc) the cynic
in me says "they're trying to reduce costs so they don't have to retrain
later".

You've got to look out for #1 first. Nobody else is looking out for you after
all.

~~~
throwaway2016a
I guess my point was for those people they ended up with a much better third
option by accepting our counter offer. If they had said no to our counter
offer they would have been worse off.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Agreed! You get what you negotiate, not what you deserve!

------
jrobichaud
I once worked in a company where the only way to get a raise was to get a
counter offer. Each year even the best people were getting raises lower than
the cost of life increase.

The employees were so unmotivated, all they wanted was to find another job.

Don't take a counter offer, flee those kind of places.

------
jondubois
It depends on the situation.

If the codebase is a mess and you're the only person who understands it and
the boss is aware of this; and your absence would cause the business to lose a
ton of money and the boss offers you an amazing deal then you should
definitely accept the counter-offer.

------
alicelthwaite
I'm not a recruiter and I completely agree. Never accept a counter offer.
Having said this - I work in sales, and a lot depends on trust between you and
the company when you work in that profession. It may be different for
developers etc.

------
atsaloli
I accepted a counter offer as a senior sysadmin at my last job and then ended
up getting promoted to Dir Ops. I never regretted accepting the counter offer,
even though the recruiter tried to talk me out of it.

------
mgalka
Interesting post, though am I the only one who finds it strange to see it
upvoted so many times on hacker news.

------
fbreduc
Not very good advice, these things are always highly situational and any clear
cut answer would prove ignorance

------
Shivetya
just remember that not everything is about earning more money, sometimes the
best career moves may involve making less and with reduced stress and angst

------
known
If you take the counter-offer you'll be dumped after the job is done :)

