
An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges - okket
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/
======
jchiu1106
As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top
Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On
one hand, the toxic culture permeated the Chinese visa student community is
definitely responsible for the high rate of cheating. Most Chinese visa
students came to study in the west did not came to pursue academic excellence.
They (and their parents most likely) see it as a way to beef up their profile
with a foreign diploma. This was a culture that I tried so desperately to stay
away from when I was in school.

On the other hand, I feel bad that the broad generalization impacts
tremendously negatively those Chinese visa students who did pursue their dream
and passion which led them to a foreign university. I worked hard to graduate
with distinction, and learned my stuff well enough to go on and have a
successful career, but I always feel I have to go the extra mile just to prove
myself; I have to go above-and-beyond just to gain equal footing. I cannot
quantify the negative impact the those people cause, but it's incredibly
unfair to be prejudiced just because I may look like those people.

Academic dishonesty is certainly _not_ a Chinese-only problem. The media
singling out a group such as the Chinese visa students is certainly a popular
thing to do to gain clicks, but it's a little unfair.

</end-of-rant>

~~~
pnathan
As a former grad student who has interacted with both the good and the bad of
your group, I understand the differences... and regret the unfortunate
realities.

I remember a Chinese PhD student who could not function in spoken English .
Nice guy. Always smiled, bobbed his head, and said "hi", and that was the
extent of his verbal vocab. Still don't know how he got into an American
graduate school. Really brings the department down. :-/

~~~
Nokinside
I attended a conference where young Chinese PhD was giving presentation and
nobody could understand what he was saying. Finally one of the organizing
professors interrupted him and requested that he should speak English. "But
I'm speaking English." he replied with desperation in his voice.

He knew his stuff and could write and read English well, but it was very hard
to understand what he was saying.

~~~
pnathan
> He knew his stuff and could write and read English well,

Right, I really don't have any way to assess that of a grad student I meet in
the halls if they can't speak to me. They may be _brilliant_ , they may be the
best student there, and be totally walled off from everyone who doesn't speak
their native tongue. I feel bad for them... but I don't think they should be
in a grad school where English is the lingua franca.

I would vastly prefer "adequate English proficiency" be a hard criteria for
attending a US graduate school. Not only are grad students part of a cohort
themselves, they often are TAs and provide assistance and guidance to
undergraduates. English adequacy is generally the de facto requirement to
adequately assist others who are in college (in the US).

~~~
sammydavis
It is a requirement, it's just that apparently the test of English as a
foreign language (TOEFL?) either are too easily cheated or aren't adequately
checking for that. I should add I knew many excellent students in grad school,
from dozens of countries, and good and bad us students :-) I never achieved
any fluency in other languages, it would be incredibly hard to learn Mandarian
or another non-romance language,and I appreciate the challenge for them.

At my grad school, there were students from two countries that there seemed to
be widespread believe that there was widespread cheating. This included (not
really cheating things) like copies of all tests given by any professor in the
past. I didn't believe it at first, but then someone from said country showed
it to me.

It's hard to believe if you really were cheating, how could you make it
through a bachelors in CS? Someone should notice, right? I was a TA of a class
where the prof eventually figured out one student was copying from another
student. He gave him an F.

------
kirrent
Australia is also a popular destination for Chinese students and sees high
rates of cheating for many of the same reasons as those given in the article.
Poor language skills allowed by lax student visa requirements, isolation, and
the high penalties for failing a course when your family is paying full price
creates desperation.

4 corners did a pretty good story on it and the smh investigation into
MyMaster was also pretty good. Even if you can't get the video on 4 corners,
the transcript is available.

[http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2015/04/20/4217741.ht...](http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2015/04/20/4217741.htm)

[http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/mymaster-essay-cheating-scandal-
mo...](http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/mymaster-essay-cheating-scandal-more-
than-70-university-students-face-suspension-20150312-1425oe.html)

~~~
Snargorf
Non-Chinese students also have those same problems, but they don't cheat like
the Chinese.

Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to
China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in public,
or society at large.

This is a place where bystanders will watch cars swerve wildly around an open
manhole cover over and over, nearly getting in accidents, doing nothing to
help. When the Westerner comes by and closes the manhole cover, the Chinese
are surprised. They'd never consider doing anything like that, because -
what's in it for them?

This is a country where people pay others to go to prison for them. If they
clip a child with their car, they'll deliberately run over the child again and
again to make sure he dies and doesn't create hospital bills.

I was never more staggered by rampant, blatant cheating, plagiarism or
dishonesty than when I spent a semester studying in a university there. For
someone raised in the West, Chinese callousness and dishonesty towards
strangers is unbelievable until you experience it.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
> Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to
> China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in
> public, or society at large.

I am Chinese and I would respectfully disagree that cheating is some part of
Chinese culture. The only example you gave was basically the bystander effect
in action, which you then ascribe to... cheating somehow? Moral depravity of
millions of people?

Chinese callousness towards strangers is shocking. Wait till you see what some
us politicians have to say about foreigners!

~~~
killerpopiller
I this cheating aspect of the chinese Culture very believable for several
reasons. \- china is a highly competitive culture (extremely densly populated,
need to competing aout ressource) \- china acts economically like Borg, they
sold solar panels for less than the production costs to crush the European
market (which they successfully did), the same is now happening with Steel
btw. > I call that cheating as well \- china manipulates it's own currency \-
china steels intelectual property notoriously

~~~
smy20011
For the steel, no, if you import more ores, you will get lower prices. The
production costs will lower due to large scale production.

------
s_baby
The international students have unreasonably high standards for maintaining
financial assistance and staying out of academic probation(3.5-3.8 at my
university). By design college courses give work just a little beyond what a
student can reasonably accomplish(with a "good" grade) and curve accordingly.
These kids aren't just cheating they are marginalizing students who are honest
or don't have this kind of social access. If you're not part of a
fraterntiy/sorority that archives coursework/tests of previous students or
part of an international student in-group then you can easily fall through the
cracks from this grade deflation effect.

~~~
qrendel
> _If you 're not part of a fraterntiy/sorority that archives coursework/tests
> of previous students or part of an international student in-group then you
> can easily fall through the cracks from this grade deflation effect._

That is a huge problem for a lot of us more introverted types, especially if
you're a transfer student from another school. I remember taking a bunch of
classes where I didn't know anyone and had no one to discuss problems and
solutions with. Organic chemistry, diff eq, among others, but pretty much all
classes were like that. Having social anxiety issues made it very hard to work
my way into the community. Meanwhile the other students had all been stuck
together in the same program for years, the same dorms, the same fraternities,
etc.

I'd come in and the entire rest of the class would be sitting around sharing
their homework answers, copying each other on the ones they couldn't figure
out, getting help from each other... Never had any access to it and I know I
worked harder for lower grades (in some cases) just because I wasn't part of
the in-group.

~~~
sotojuan
Even worse is when people with connections get interviews or jobs based solely
on knowing people who can recommend them.

At least in programming we have GitHub/Twitter/meetups to help with that
(worked great for me).

~~~
wavefunction
That's just personal/professional networking and you should consider working
at it. I try to keep in touch with as many former co-workers as I can in case
I find myself looking for something new or I can help out someone who is
looking themselves.

That's my favorite opportunity: helping someone find a job when they need one.

~~~
sotojuan
Yeah I've done my fair share of networking as I mentioned. Just meant it's
also a common complaint by introverted students.

------
mrep
I went to a public university with a large international population and this
doesn't surprise me in the slightest. A lot of the international students were
extremely poor at english. One of the guys on my software project team was an
international student who confirmed that it was very easy to pay someone to
take the english proficiency exam.

Us Americans aren't so innocent though. The amount of
adderall/vyvanse/ritalin... that goes through college campuses is ridiculous.

Honestly, I feel that it's just a symptom of extreme competition. With
colleges and first time jobs taking such extreme care to filter on GPA and the
likes, every little bit usually pays off.

~~~
tdeck
These types of discussions always depress me. You'd think from reading them
that everyone has cheated or popped some Adderall at some point, and it's a
normal part of college. Is that really true? I never have, unless you count
making up excuses for turning in the occasional thing late. I worked hard in
school and got decent but not amazing grades (3.7 something). When I hear this
shit it makes me feel like I was playing the game handicapped all along.

Either that or the cheaters among is are always looking for ways to
rationalize it by making it seem more normative.

~~~
mrep
Don't feel bad. Cheating is like taking on technical debt. It's a short term
reward, but it usually comes back to haunt you. After graduating, their
employer will learn that they aren't nearly as good as their resume said they
were and with your greater knowledge and word ethic, you'll probably come out
ahead.

~~~
new_hackers
Yup, that's what I've seen. I have an engineering degree and it is was a
common understanding that the cheaters were the guys and gals that ended up
being technical reps, while the hard workers ended up doing the exciting work.
It only takes 1-2 years in the work force to see who has got the chops and who
doesn't.

------
hackaflocka
Can confirm. I'm a professor at a US university.

One class of 40 students, about 20 were Chinese foreign students.

Turns out, they were each doing 40+ credits that semester. About 20+ from the
U.S. university, and about 20+ from a Chinese university (online).

How's that possible? They were sharing assignments and exams. Each one had the
responsibility to do the same assignment and exam over and over for about half
a dozen others.

They were on track to complete a 4-year program in 2 years. The actual degree
was being awarded by the Chinese university, and they were transferring the
credits from the U.S. university.

~~~
dogma1138
Isn't that kinda counter productive? I would assume that a degree from a US
university would count for much more which is part of the reason why so many
of the Chinese upper class are sending their children to the US - the stamp on
the paper is worth more than the actual education.

~~~
hackaflocka
Yeah -- I wondered about that too. I think they were aiming to familiarize
themselves with the U.S. as much as possible, in as short a time for as little
money as possible. I think their real aim was a graduate program in the U.S.
You'd be surprised at how much easier it is to get into a graduate program
here if you're already here.

------
tristanj
Part 1 and Part 2 of the series are also worth reading

[http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
report/college-s...](http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
report/college-sat-one/)

[http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
report/college-s...](http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
report/college-sat-two/)

~~~
studentrob
Thanks, didn't realize that!

------
jboles
Sadly, not a new thing and not just US universities.

Ghostwriting scandal that hit a bunch of Australian universities about 18
months ago:

[http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/students-enlist-
mym...](http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/students-enlist-mymaster-
website-to-write-essays-assignments-20141110-11k0xg.html)

"Australia's international student market is a $15 billion industry and the
country's largest export after iron ore, coal and gold"... and money talks.

------
whack
Cheating is and always should be a pox that needs to be eradicated. But let's
not turn a blind eye to what's happening here locally. Parents in the 1% spend
an extraordinary amount of money and resources on college-prep companies, many
of which tell the kids exactly what extracurriculars to take, what to do after
school, and virtually write the entire outline of their admissions essays.
It's little wonder that schools like Harvard are playgrounds for the ultra-
elite.

~~~
benten10
YES!

And I don't want to piss of the uhh, bros among us, but it was _extremely_
unfair as an international student to see mediocre fraternity brothers party
through the semester, and then using their 'frat-connections' (basically the
DL on all the old questions sets, collected over decades, and detailed
coaching by fellow brothers on likely questions and answers) due exceedingly
well in the exams, and then use their frat connections to land exceedingly
awesome jobs. Blame the Chinese all you want, it hurts because they're the
'other'. (/rant. Sorry. Makes me really mad. I WORKED HARD TO LEARN AND
ENJOYED CLASSES.) Funnily enough, I did exceedingly well in those exams that
were open book (instructors knew the 'sharing of past papers happened, so they
changed questions types) to which I didn't any scrap of paper. /humblebrag.
But yeah, the system is unfair as it is.

Having said that, dear Americans, as broken as things are (despite those gosh
darned 'cheatin' Chinese', as Trump would say), the system is better than
anywhere else. Thanks for that : )

~~~
sotojuan
> and then use their frat connections to land exceedingly awesome jobs

That happens everywhere though. It's not endemic to "frat bros"—a lot of
people find jobs through connections rather than only grades. Most of the time
it's through a family friend or family member, or in CS through open source or
meet ups. It sucks when you don't have any connections but it's not unfair;
it's just how it is. Should I not tell an undergrad friend that my company is
hiring interns and recommend her?

Of course an international student will have less connections which is why
they sometimes struggle getting internships.

But yeah, the cheating stuff is messed up!

~~~
twshoopboop
"it's not unfair; it's just how it is"

It kind of is unfair. Why should someone get preferential treatment just
because you happen to know them? Also there's a difference between
recommending someone for a job and "Hey this is my buddy, don't look at her
resume and we can also skip most of the interview process". There's different
degrees of nepotism, they are all usually a bit 'unfair'. But then, life is
unfair and so you just deal with it and do the best with whatever resources
you have.

~~~
tristor
> Why should someone get preferential treatment just because you happen to
> know them?

Because I know what sort of work they will produce, their attitude towards
work, and their general behavior/personality and whether that will fit into
the team without causing disruption or loss of productivity. That's why.

Business isn't about making everyone feel loved and accepted, business is
about making money as efficiently as possible by providing a product or
service that your customer want/need. Anything which furthers those goals is
absolutely fair, especially things which are discriminatory only on the basis
of knowledge.

------
cels
When I began graduate school, it was very surprising to me to see how the
Chinese kids all cheated together as a matter of course and the Indian kids
all cheated together as a matter of course. Some of the Americans would cheat
somewhat, but furtively, rather than just being an ingrained part of culture.

(with the exception of one top Indian student who had no need for cheating
whatsoever)

------
studentrob
High school students' parents in China give gifts to teachers to guarantee
good grades for their kids.

This culture of cheating goes beyond cheating on the American tests.

In the business world, it's common to give gifts to your boss to get a
promotion.

China will not surpass us economically any time soon. Their educational and
promotional systems have a long way to go.

------
mkagenius
China's plagiarism problem : [http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/26/china-cheating-
innovation-m...](http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/26/china-cheating-innovation-
markets-economy-plagiarism.html)

------
raincom
Instead of looking at the issue morally, one can see what it boils down to:
learning vs credentialing

This shows that one wants a credential, but does not want to learn. There are
tons of people out there who precisely want that.

~~~
tristor
And it's also precisely anathema to the purpose of a university. It's
especially infuriating if people are doing it while studying CS or similar
engineering topics, because in most cases the job market doesn't require the
credentials only the skills and their cheating is causing grade deflation for
people who actually put forth effort.

------
ikeboy
Discussion of a previous post in the series:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11380174](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11380174)

------
raddad
I was taking a school bus license endorsement exam and saw they throw out a
Chinese girl for cheating. The examiner said it was a fairly frequent
occurrence. They couldn't read the questions or answers but they could match
the picture with the correct line of answers on the computerized testing
machine after enough memorization.

------
mmkx
This is happening on a mass scale at University of California, Irvine. Nobody
is investigating.

~~~
uptownfunk
I suspect this is also happening throughout the UC system, particularly
Berkeley as well.

------
ausjke
In the past, only the brightest and best Chinese students could come to US,
mostly by scholarship for their master/PhD, most of them stayed after the
study.

These days, the majority students from China are those ordinary kids(or even
worse) with a rich dad, most of them are the only child in the family which
was likely spoiled, these combined produced a quality issue, so we're seeing
them on the news, that they cheat, they committed crimes, they do drugs,etc.

In the meantime, many universities are in need of cash, which is another
reason in the mix.

So all in all, it's all about money, one needs that, another one has that but
not much more than that, thus all kinds of related issues.

------
IndianAstronaut
I am sure they could stop it but the money the students bring is too valuable.

~~~
davidmr
I have no relevant experience in academic finance, but I sincerely doubt it.
The brand and reputation of the universities are what allows them to charge so
much for tuition and get prestigious faculty (i.e. grant money).

Besides, at a large research University, tuition is usually not the majority
of their income ([http://www.uiowa.edu/homepage/about-
university/budget](http://www.uiowa.edu/homepage/about-university/budget))

~~~
sytelus
I'd heard that seats at Harvard was going for $20 million per piece for
internal students who wouldn't remotely qualify otherwise. There are always
few seats like these reserved at most universities. If you do the math, that
one guy basically covers the cost of his entire class.

~~~
davidmr
Do you have any citations for this? I'm extremely skeptical. Harvard doesn't
need the $20M; they're doing just fine as it is.

~~~
Ivannahack
The nature of the problem dictates it can't go on record. I can only add I've
heard the same anecdotal from my international students, not necessarily about
Harvard but similar higher-tier schools going for $50,000 admission, probably
with more fees for a certain GPA.

The degrees for cash are sold abroad from what I've gathered. I highly doubt
the money goes to Harvard directly-instead it probably pays off the service
offering the degree first, with money to admissions directors, professors and
whoever else needs to look the other way. It'd be hard to hide huge sums of
money in the US system, but possible abroad with in-person or otherwise hidden
pay offs to people on the inside in the USA.

------
leroy_masochist
Perhaps a dumb question but why doesn't the Chinese government crack down on
this? I feel like they have a pretty good handle on what's going on within
their borders, and this issue is poisoning the reputation of Chinese-born
young people whether as applicants to companies, applicants to grad school, or
generally as trustworthy human beings.

Is it because the college students benefiting from these operations are the
children of influential people? That's the only explanation I can think of
that makes any sense.

~~~
netheril96
Why should the Chinese government help Chinese apply to American universities
and companies? They certainly want the best and brightest to stay home.

~~~
leroy_masochist
True, but they also want their young people to get the best quality education
available, especially in STEM, which is currently (and probably not forever)
disproportionately situated in America.

~~~
studentrob
No free speech. It hurts their educational systems very deeply. They also have
a culture of bribing/gifting, from middle school up into the business world
and government.

It all boils down to the government wanting to hold onto Asian culture, avoid
conflict, keep control and save face.

They view democracy as America's attempt to insert a US-friendly leader.
Democracies are arguably the best peace keepers humanity has ever seen,
however, China does not view it this way.

This is my perspective after living in SE Asia for 2 years and Taiwan for 2
years. I travel through China occasionally.

Visit China, you can see for yourself

~~~
B1FF_PSUVM
> Democracies are arguably the best peace keepers humanity has ever seen,

You might want to examine that belief, and how you acquired it. Evidence for
it in the historical record is not exactly abundant.

(Feel free to dig back 25 centuries, and start by looking up how the Athenian
democracy went around kicking their neighbors' butts, as told by one of the
Athenian generals, a fair-minded bloke. Thucydides' Melian dialogue is the
magic string.)

~~~
lgieron
Didn't Athens fall because their democratic government assigned too little tax
money to military? That's what happened in first Polish democracy (XV-XVIII
centuries).

~~~
douche
It had more to do with launching a boondoggle invasion of Syracuse that ended
in total disaster, from what I remember from my Thucydides.

------
andrey_utkin
Have seen at last one Chinese guy's profile on Upwork having some test passed
with maximum score, completed within ~5 minutes (while the time for a test is
usually ~40 minutes).

~~~
mahranch
This is something that isn't just unique to higher education in the U.S, it's
pretty much standard practice back in China as well. It's all about rote
memorization & tests. What you can't memorize, you find a way to cheat
through. You can't cheat? Then buy off your professor or teacher. Bribing
educators in China is the quickest and easiest way to pass. Practically no
creative learning takes place in China.

This is interesting to me because it's something that's inherent to China's
culture. It persists passed the education stage of their life, well into
adulthood. And that's a terrible shame because it sets up China for failure.

Without actually learning/understanding the material (and learning to think
critically), the general populace isn't equipped and stands no chance when it
comes to future innovations. The foundation for future technological
innovation (in _any_ industry) simply isn't there. Their country has always
been a few steps behind, and keeps falling further and further behind as the
decades pass. There are no new big innovations coming out of China, they've
only been able to hold their own (if you can call it that) by buying, copying
or stealing technology from other countries, entities or businesses. The
problem is, China's targets have wised up over the years, so future
IP/technology theft will be much, much harder if not impossible.

Unfortunately, I think because this has its roots in China's culture
(systemic), there is no quick fix as changing the culture of a billion people
is nearly impossible. I think the entire thing needs to come down and be
rebuilt from scratch.

~~~
studentrob
> Unfortunately, I think because this has its roots in China's culture
> (systemic), there is no quick fix as changing the culture of a billion
> people is nearly impossible. I think the entire thing needs to come down and
> be rebuilt from scratch.

I agree with everything you wrote up to here. I'd have said the same thing
until I moved to Taiwan. Now I'm not sure what to think

I live in Kaohsiung (pronounced gow-shung), Taiwan, which is relatively
unknown but is actually the second biggest city in Taiwan after Taipei. It's
the site of a 1979 protest named the Kaohsiung or Formosa Incident [1]

People were protesting martial law and seeking democracy. The other day I was
talking to someone who was at that protest. He told me the feeling of the
populace was that steps towards democracy _must_ be made. Otherwise, people
were going to start a revolution. 17 years later, in 1996, after a series of
changes, Taiwan held its first direct election. Since then, a diverse cast of
characters have been elected to the legislative body. Around 65-75% of the
Taiwanese turn out to vote [2].

I feel Taiwan's warless entrance into democracy shows that governments can
evolve without war. The BBC has a very succinct history of Taiwan that is
pretty accurate if you're interested in learning more [3].

Taiwan is a very controversial subject, particularly to China, who claims
ownership of it. Taiwan has its own government, holds elections, doesn't pay
taxes to China, and you need a passport to go between TW and China.

There are a lot of differences between China and Taiwan so it's hard to
predict what will happen in China. I am optimistic.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaohsiung_Incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaohsiung_Incident)

[2]
[http://www.idea.int/vt/countryview.cfm?CountryCode=TW](http://www.idea.int/vt/countryview.cfm?CountryCode=TW)

[3]
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/asia_pac/04/taiwan_fla...](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/asia_pac/04/taiwan_flashpoint/html/history.stm)

------
studentrob
This story is _HUGE_

Entire copies of the SAT are getting released in China, and possibly the US.
The College Board's ETS cancelled January 2016's test in China out of concern
that the test that would be used was already available on the internet. Then
they gave another test in March. Questions from that test started appearing
online within hours after it finished [1]

The problem with this is that the College Board reuses tests. They do not feel
it is feasible for them to issue unique questions for each test, according to
[2]

This undermines the biggest criteria used to admit students to college

It means rich kids in China can buy their way into US colleges through these
companies that compile actual SAT questions, and poorer kids who have done
honest hard work will miss out on opportunities to study in the US.

So long as this goes unaddressed, we're importing rich kids who will arrive
unprepared and return home without much further education. They're simply
giving money to certain institutions in the US and not adding much to the
development of US or Chinese innovations. The quality of schools could
degrade, causing a weaker economy, etc. etc.

Hope the College Board can see how pervasive this is. The internet is a real
game changer when it comes to maintaining academic integrity.

[1]
[https://soundcloud.com/reuters/howtogamethesat#t=26:21](https://soundcloud.com/reuters/howtogamethesat#t=26:21)

[2]
[https://soundcloud.com/reuters/howtogamethesat#t=5:40](https://soundcloud.com/reuters/howtogamethesat#t=5:40)

------
leesalminen
I was enrolled in a Business Calculus course (100 level) my freshman year. The
"instructor" of the class at the front of the room could not speak English
intelligibly. I speak multiple languages and am decent at interpreting broken
English, but it was not even close to understandable. I left, never went back
(except for exams). I still passed just fine, but really was a terrible intro
experience to college at a large state school.

~~~
dd36
Similar experience at a state school. I ended up dropping Calculus that
semester and transferring to NYU, where Calculus was taught by an American
nuclear physicist. Got an A+. He was a great professor.

I don't remember any cheating but I wasn't really looking for it.

------
TDL
Reading some of the comments here makes it clear that we (the global we) have
_way_ overvalued the piece of paper that we get upon graduation and have
largely ignored the process, habits, & knowledge that said piece of paper once
stood for. The problem with all these developing nations & cheating isn't one
of moral failing, but the fact that a cred is valued more than what the cred
is supposed to stand for. I would argue that this has to do more with the
venality of Western universities (and our superior marketing) that it has to
do with much else.

We (Westerners) tell the world, and ourselves, all you need is a piece of
paper and all will be well. This piece of propaganda plays a larger role than
any perceived moral inferiorities among the developing peoples of the world.

~~~
studentrob
> we (the global we) have way overvalued the piece of paper that we get upon
> graduation

Well, that's subjective. It's meaningful to some people and not to others

Schools aren't meant to be perfect. Reputation is meant to help people
identify trustworthy parties more quickly. That doesn't mean you can't re-
scrutinize a school or person yourself. It's simply one optional filter. Some
people find this more useful than others.

If you don't want to pay attention to certificates, that's your choice. People
who attended these institutions may care and it's their right to defend their
degree from dilution if they wish.

~~~
TDL
I said we have overvalued the certifications/diplomas, not that they don't
have value. I also never implied that schools were meant to be perfect.

My point is that we have zeroed in on the certification/diploma too much and
have begun (until recently) paying too much attention to whether the cert has
been attained as opposed to what it is supposed to represent. The reason why I
believe this happened is because it is much easier to quantify a diploma or
any other certification, "Oh you graduated! That must mean X." It is harder to
ascertain whether or not a person who gained a diploma or cert actually
deserves it or learned anything in the process.

~~~
studentrob
> I also never implied that schools were meant to be perfect.

Yeah, you're right, sorry.

> we have zeroed in on the certification/diploma too much and have begun
> (until recently) paying too much attention to whether the cert has been
> attained as opposed to what it is supposed to represent

I can only speak for myself. For me this story is not just about the value of
the piece of paper. It's the down-the-road effects that I find interesting.
You may feel the plight of China or Chinese students does not affect you. I
consider them part of my community. I live in Taiwan, which, while a separate
country from China, often gets lumped together with China. I think many people
could make a case for how this issue affects them, whether in school or the
workplace, beyond just the value of their degree. When this happens at all
schools, it becomes the value of our educational system.

> The reason why I believe this happened is because it is much easier to
> quantify a diploma or any other certification, "Oh you graduated! That must
> mean X."

Yup, that happens, for sure

------
hoodoof
I know its naive but I find it really hard to understand why people value the
piece of paper more than the knowledge.

The good news is that you can't cheat as a software developer. Or maybe you
can? Depressing thought.

~~~
sytelus
It's usually their rich parents who value piece of paper, not students
themselves as much.

~~~
studentrob
And, parents are told that their kids need this paper. Test-prep businesses,
like the one mentioned in the article, tell them that in order to drum up
business.

------
auggierose
That doesn't only apply to the Chinese. A German friend of mine faked his
transcripts to do an MBA in California. As long as he paid the 25K in tuition
fees, nobody cared to take a closer look. He did well, got his MBA, and lived
happily ever after.

------
known
You call it corruption; They call it innovation;

------
Kinnard
Damn, first generation college student black americans sure are getting ripped
off . . .

------
fatman13gg
> U.S. universities offer an easier way to get ahead, with a quality education
> and better job prospects.

The better job prospects part might not be true. Those came back to China for
jobs will get their current position with or without a U.S. degree.

~~~
studentrob
.... with the US degree they have a chance to get a job in the US with a
higher salary

~~~
fatman13gg
I said "those came back to China". Most undergrad went back to China
eventually. Just compare the number of Chinese students given in the article
and the number of H1-B visa issued every year. Do the math.

~~~
studentrob
Oh I see.. you're saying, the article claims students have a better chance of
getting a job in the US, but in reality, the chance is not so great since H1-B
visas are limited.

Are you happy that you studied in the US? Or do you think it was not worth it?
Just curious.

~~~
fatman13gg
For me personally, I don't think it is worth it. But if I hadn't studied
abroad, it wouldn't have killed my interest to do so.

~~~
studentrob
I understand 100%. I feel that way about a lot of things I try in life =)

How are you doing now?

By the way, I just watched a documentary about this kind of thing happening in
China [1]. One American version of that story is a documentary named College,
Inc [2]

[1] [https://youtu.be/BP61LwODTnY](https://youtu.be/BP61LwODTnY)

[2]
[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/collegeinc/](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/collegeinc/)

~~~
fatman13gg
Good Sharing. I come from a tier 1 city in China. The struggle people in [1]
have seems very distant to me. I think they are good people, but they are just
too naive to think they could get decent office jobs with such low grades. (At
5:37, it mentioned the girl only got 388 points for National Entrance Exam. It
was terrible.) They might be better suited for a blue collar job or a service
sector job (waiter/waitress etc). Those jobs might just pay much better.

And yes, I probably have better resources than those unfortunate. But guess
who had paid the price? My great grandparents. They came to tier 1 city in
1900s, lived a hard life and did low skilled work like ironing cloth so that
my grandparents could settle in city. The kid at 45:47 whining about how
things were unfair to him was just making me sick.

~~~
studentrob
Your story reminds me of how Americans view international students who enter
American schools with minimal ability to speak English. We wonder what they
are doing there.

I have an idea about why you did not find a job in America.. consider,

Many international students cheat on the SAT to either (a) get into good
schools or (b) get good grades at those schools [1]. Employers filter
resume/CV's based on good schools and good grades.

When an employer identifies that he/she has interviewed or hired someone who
is not as good as their resume/CV indicates, the employer looks for a pattern.
In short, H-1B's become risky hires for smaller businesses who don't have the
time to sift through many CV's.

The rampant cheating in [1] hurts your chances of landing an interview, and it
may also have an impact on the number of H-1B's set by the government. If
existing H-1B holders are not measurably adding enough value to the American
GDP, then there's no reason to increase the number given out.

\---------------------------

> And yes, I probably have better resources than those unfortunate.

Right, exactly. There's nobody to tell the mother that this new school is
probably not worth the money they're paying for it

> But guess who had paid the price? My great grandparents.

No doubt your ancestors worked hard. That was 100 years ago. Times have
changed and we are better off focusing on today.

I suggest the following is always true:

Society is about more than helping just your family. Society is protection and
support for a larger group so you can enjoy friends and relationships outside
your family in relative safety. Some tax money goes to military and police who
maintain order and prevent crime. Some taxes go towards educating the poor.

When a society focuses more on police and less on education, the poor stay
poor. If the poor stay poor for too long, they believe less in themselves and
become less productive members of society.

Education and police are more efficient when in balance. The poor manufacture
everything. People need each other, and the rich need the poor as much as the
poor need the rich.

~~~
fatman13gg
> I have an idea about why you did not find a job in America.. consider,

I worked as a programmer in States for 2 years. I decided to go back on my own
will.

> If existing H-1B holders are not measurably adding enough value to the
> American GDP, then there's no reason to increase the number given out.

And I am not complaining the number of H1-B visa. In fact, I think the current
policy works okay.

What I was suggesting was that people cheated their way out of U.S. colleges
would most likely spend zero effort looking for jobs in States. Their goal was
to get the degree so that their parents could have reasons to put them in some
position back in home.

All in all, both group (kids in [1] and kids in the article) were doing very
poorly academically in China. And all their struggles wouldn't be such a big
deal if they just learn their places in the society.

~~~
studentrob
> I worked as a programmer in States for 2 years. I decided to go back on my
> own will.

> And I am not complaining the number of H1-B visa. In fact, I think the
> current policy works okay.

Oh okay, I understand now.

> What I was suggesting was that people cheated their way out of U.S. colleges
> would most likely spend zero effort looking for jobs in States. Their goal
> was to get the degree so that their parents could have reasons to put them
> in some position back in home.

Perhaps. You have better insight into what might be going through minds of
Chinese students than I do.

> All in all, both group (kids in [1] and kids in the article) were doing very
> poorly academically in China. And all their struggles wouldn't be such a big
> deal if they just learn their places in the society.

You already noted you had better resources and therefore have an advantage at
learning something that lands you an office job.

Assigning people to be poor forever is not a society in which I would like to
live. This breeds more unproductive members of society. The rich pretend to
ignore the poor, and vice versa. They don't communicate well. I support
bettering communications between people, not worsening them. Countries like
Germany, Finland, Norway and Sweden accept and support the poor.

So does China, for that matter. I have to believe some poor Chinese students
do find success through public schools when given the right support. If the
CPC believed the poor were only worth manual labor, they wouldn't provide
education through high school. You don't need that much classroom training to
move objects. Nor would they introduce programs like social workers who focus
on poverty.

The question is, how much support do you want to provide to the poor, and what
kind of future do you envision for China? Is it the same as it is today? Then
fine, make no changes. But, if you wish for something better, I wonder if
you're open to the idea that supporting the poor can bring about further
economic growth. Building giant unoccupied buildings in China isn't helping
you produce more GDP. Supporting and educating the poor would enable them to
add more to GDP.

You could visit Europe, which has more social welfare programs, and ask
yourself whether you would like to see any of those programs implemented in
China. Perhaps you like China just the way it is in 2016. Or maybe you have
another idea for how to improve your community or society.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

------
googletazer
The real question is how can you make money from this.

Cheating is a part of human nature, and its not very surprising it would
happen, especially when the pressure is high at universities. If it wasn't
good for survival, it wouldn't happen.

~~~
studentrob
> The real question is how can you make money from this.

Apparently you can set up a homework helper service for graduates like Fanyi
Translation [1] [2]

> If it wasn't good for survival, it wouldn't happen.

There are all kinds of things that happen in evolution that don't survive.
_Happening_ isn't evidence that something is good for survival

[1] [https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-
CN&tl=en&...](https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-
CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Farchive.is%2FXNZD1)

[2] [http://archive.is/XNZD1](http://archive.is/XNZD1)

------
qaq
A friend worked as a PM for similar service targeting different demographic
(and mostly written assignments). They were pulling in over 1 million a month
profit so this is fairly widespread and definitely not limited to Chinese
students.

------
yeowMeng
Unrelated but: It's easy to believe that yr peers are cheating. But I believe
there are a lot of hard working people that know the concequence of cheating
your way through.

~~~
ori_b
But often the consequences are rather light. I can't think of anyone facing
any serious repercussions -- the worst was failing an assignment.

~~~
Afton
I've taught university classes, and failed students on the class for cheating.
But it's true that I haven't seen anyone kicked out of a program or a
university for cheating.

~~~
coredog64
Anecdote: Foreign student where I went to school flat out cheated on the
final. When caught, he copped to it. A humanities prof then went to bat for
him, saying that it was okay to cheat where he came from. They didn't expel
him.

~~~
xviia
The student may have come from a place where cheating is OK, but he came to a
place where it's not OK.

(I don't fault the humanities professor, he may have grown up in a culture
where it's acceptable to be full of shit.)

------
paradite
One common mistake made by westerners is treating lack in language proficiency
as low competency in work or study. Native English speakers take for granted
the ability to speak English fluently but do not realize it takes years to
master spoken English as a non-native speaker.

Although this is tangential to the issue being discussed here, but you can see
this mistake appearing in lots of comments here.

~~~
studentrob
You make a good point that one solution to this problem is getting the
incoming Chinese students a better English education. They obviously don't
really have it before arriving, and schools want their tuition.

Schools should enroll Chinese students in English education for 3-6 months
prior to the beginning of the term.

~~~
paradite
I absolutely agree with you on this.

~~~
studentrob
Cool. A big thing about learning language is getting the confidence to speak.
You can get that by practicing with some native speakers.

In the classroom, if students don't feel comfortable speaking, they won't ask
questions. If they don't ask questions, they won't learn as well as they could
by asking.

------
JoeAltmaier
"a vibrant East Asian industry "? There were 30 students out of a student
population of 30,000 that used this service. That comes to, what, 0.1 percent?
How many of the other 49,970 students hedged their bets in other shady ways
(sharing papers, duplicating homework, covering one another for labs)? This is
not a situation limited to those unscrupulous foreigners. The whole article
smacks of nationalism.

I know, its pretty cynical to have a business dedicated to systemized
cheating. But how is that different from sororities and frats that make
available (and sell) last years notes/exams? That's often a thriving cottage
industry.

Caveat: I went to Iowa. I was in the Engineering program, which was 50%
foreign students (99% of the graduate students) back then. These were some of
the hardest-working, smartest scholars I have ever met.

I don't think there's anything new to learn in this article.

~~~
studentrob
> I know, its pretty cynical to have a business dedicated to systemized
> cheating. But how is that different from sororities and frats that make
> available (and sell) last years notes/exams? That's often a thriving cottage
> industry.

It isn't different. Cheating is cheating. This is an article about a business
catering to Chinese students, called Fanyi Translation [1] [2].

If you have another article about fraternities or sororities cheating, you're
welcome to submit it to HN for discussion.

[1] [https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-
CN&tl=en&...](https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-
CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Farchive.is%2FXNZD1)

[2] [http://archive.is/XNZD1](http://archive.is/XNZD1)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Yeah, and 30 students out of 30,000 is a tiny drop in the bucket. Just putting
it into perspective.

~~~
studentrob
2,797 are Chinese international students [1]. 30 is 1% of this demographic

> Today, the University of Iowa, one of the largest state universities in the
> American Midwest, says it is investigating at least 30 students suspected of
> cheating. Three sources familiar with the inquiry say the number under
> investigation may be two or three times higher.

So, it could be 2% or 3%

The cheaters are not representative of all PRC-Chinese.

The story is definitely newsworthy

[1] [http://admissions.uiowa.edu/future-students/international-
st...](http://admissions.uiowa.edu/future-students/international-student-
profile)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
...and 30 is 100% of 30. You can make up any bogus statistic you like by
cherry-picking the population.

~~~
studentrob
Lol. It is not cherry picking.

The goal of this article is not to argue that cheating is part of Chinese
culture. The goal is to identify a problem so that society can correct it. The
problem is, there are a significant number of businesses that help Chinese
students cheat.

The problem is widescale. SAT questions are regularly being shared online [1]

3 minute video [2]

Further details by podcast [3]

The article does not say that non-Chinese students do not cheat. Again, it is
focused on a particular brand of cheating because the source of that problem
can be traced. Its roots are in businesses that are sharing SAT questions.
These researchers have identified that this information is often found on
Chinese websites.

This is basic problem solving 101, not racism. Identify the source of cheating
in each case, whether it's fraternities, or students from china, india, or
south korea, and put a stop to each one.

That's the way we curb this behavior. Research an issue, get evidence, share
information, hold a hearing where all parties can state their case, and give
feedback to the offenders in the form of consequences.

The more publicly known this process is, the more future students will know
what lies ahead when they cheat.

[1] [http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
report/college-s...](http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
report/college-sat-one/)

[2] [http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
report/college-s...](http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
report/college-sat-one#video-SAT)

[3]
[https://soundcloud.com/reuters/howtogamethesat](https://soundcloud.com/reuters/howtogamethesat)

