
Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands - santix
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-13/toyotas-and-chevys-are-holding-up-better-than-most-luxury-brands
======
kenhwang
This article seems to be written using results from a J.D. Power report. J.D.
Power's methodology is commonly known to be extremely flawed in that they
weigh all "issues" equally. So an engine failure is the same severity as
Bluetooth not connecting.

Furthermore, tiebreakers are broken in pretty nonsense ways, and many suspect
it's by whoever pays the most. For example, they crowned Buick the most
dependable brand, but by their own ratings, both Lexus and Porsche scored
higher.

If you rank by only mechanical dependability by their own numbers, the ranking
is as follows (alphabetical w/in tiers):

10: Lexus, Toyota

9: BMW, Buick, Chevrolet, Hyundai, Infiniti, Kia, Lincoln, Mazda, Mercedes,
Nissan, Porsche

8: Audi, Ford, Honda, Jaguar, Mini, Subaru, Volkswagen, Volvo

7: Acura, Cadillac, Dodge, Fiat, GMC, Mitsubishi, Ram

5: Chrysler, Jeep, Land Rover.

So the old adage still holds true for mechanical reliability, Japanese >
German/European > American/British.

Also, the luxury brand of an automaker falls pretty damn close to where the
non-luxury brand lands: Lexus/Toyota, Buick/Chevy, Hyundai/Kia,
Infiniti/Nissan, Audi/Volkswagen, Cadillac/GMC, Fiat/Dodge/Ram, Chrysler/Jeep.
Which would make sense since they share mechanical parts, but not
infotainment/luxury features. When infotainment/luxury features are factored
into the dependability score, it leads to the conclusion the article is trying
to draw.

~~~
thorwasdfasdf
But, you gotta understand that's for the first 3 years only and the consumer
reports is only for the first 10 years.

Once you get beyond 10 years, any mechanic will tell you the European cars are
absolute garbage. Especially BMW, Audi and Mercedes will self destruct at some
point after 10 years. And those parts cost a heck of a lot more than non-
luxury brands. Sometimes, they won't even sell you a part by its own piece so
you have to buy the whole assembly for 1000$ even if all you need is a tiny
part that's supposed to cost no more than 50$.

~~~
kenhwang
You're conflating cost of ownership with frequency of issues (reliability).
The Germans don't break often, but when they do, it'll cost a bunch. American
cars break continuously, but it's cheap and easy to fix.

~~~
amyjess
Also, Americans and Germans have different definitions of "reliable".

Americans define "reliable" as "runs forever on zero maintenance". Germans
define "reliable" as "runs forever as long as you stick to strict maintenance
schedules".

~~~
rjplatte
I like the antifragile definition more. Go ahead and try to kill a 2008 Crown
Vic. :)

~~~
njarboe
Your car gets better the more you abuse it? Could be true if you replace
broken parts with better ones.

------
danans
As electric vehicles mature and increase their share of the consumer market,
it will be interesting to see how these sorts of reliability measurements
change to maintain relevance. Already today, a luxury EV is probably more
mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car.

Electric batteries and drivetrains have their differences in reliability for
sure (IIUC, the 1st generation Nissan Leaf lacked a battery temp management
system). However the difference between the reliability of EVs isn't likely to
be that big since EVs are much simpler machines.

A lot of the complexity that provides the luxury ICE driving experience
(smooth, quiet drivetrain, strong acceleration) comes for "free" in an EV,
even in mass market models. With that complexity gone, there's much less to
differentiate cars from a reliability perspective.

~~~
clouddrover
> _Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a
> mass market ICE car._

Tesla is among the least reliable car brands at the moment:

[https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-
releases/20...](https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-
releases/2018/10/consumer_reports_annual_reliability_survey_tesla_and_other_domestic_brands_take_big_steps_backwards_in_rankings11/)

But I think that says more about the relative immaturity of Tesla's
manufacturing than it does about EVs generally.

It will be interesting to see how Volkswagen's modular MEB electric car
platform goes in the long term. The MEB platform designed to be used across
multiple VW brands (VW, Audi, SEAT, and Skoda) and Volkswagen is interested in
licensing it to other manufacturers so it will be widely used.

~~~
gonzo
Had a Tesla Model S. Got rid of it, went back to Toyota. Dumped the
reservation on a Model 3, too.

~~~
leevlad
Would you care to expand on what pushed you to do that? Was it purely
reliability, or were there other factors involved?

------
kogus
This comment seems wrong to me:

    
    
      There is no inherent reason why a more-expensive car should
      be better or worse in terms of reliability than a
      less-expensive car, so my guess is they’ll track each other
      fairly closely going forward.
    

If the metric is per _car_ faults, then surely more features mean more
opportunities for defects, given an equal attention to quality across all
features?

~~~
kbutler
I'd say that there are reasons that both higher and lower price vehicles
should have fewer defects, but it's not clear which reasons would dominate.
(And probably different factors dominate in different periods of car
production).

High cost: more attention to detail, higher quality parts, more care with fit
and finish, should yield fewer defects.

Low cost: simpler vehicle systems, fewer moving parts, fewer unproven
features, mass production with consistent processes, should yield fewer
defects.

------
AdmiralAsshat
Still relevant: [https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-
fa...](https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fact-that-
owners-reall-1819577805)

------
SlowRobotAhead
Automotive EE here.

In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are
tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic
features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing
electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes
waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere
in Detroit because of a pending flash.

I've worked with two of the big three, and right now, neither own their
traction control, radio, trans, body, ignition, steering, etc controllers.
Basically anything. Even engines are being outsourced. I don't just mean the
module, but the code on it. One of the mfgs, their engineers can't even SEE
radio code or anything much more than general documents. They used to have
compiler access to most things, now it's extremely rare.

The mfgs wanted to outsource the development, and now when they need an
adjustment to traction control it's a $50, 100, 250, 500,000 charge, BUT,
they've also moved the responsibility to the mfgs like Bosch, ConTevis, etc.

Short version is everyone is playing the game to get hot new electronics in
cars, to make them seem as advanced as phones - but the work is not being put
in besides surface level customer view. I've found obvious glitches in zero
mile vehicles this year, but none I can think of from 2000-2013

I would not purchase a 2019 anything right now. I'd allow for two-three years
worth of flashes before considering a new car. And that doesn't mean you're
"safe" with your old car. You think your 2001 Subaru Outback is going strong?
Well, surprise, you're likely to fall victim to a different issue.

As to the article, yes, luxury cars are worse. Most people that don't realize
you can't leave your touring Ferarri in the garage not hooked up to a trickle
charger, or also picking on Ferarri that the LaFerarri when runs battery dead
may require to be loaded on a truck and shipped to a dealer before it'll
charge again, or that the new Range Rovers will attempt to void your battery
and electronics warranty if they find a radar/laser detector hooked up because
THAT is how finicky the electronics system is.

It's funny to me the amount of work that your average Toyota or Chevy vehicle
gets relative to lux models that skirt by with less engineering and more
features.

As to Cadillac and Lexus, those are just GM and Toyota, all the same things
plus some. So fundamentally they're the same, but yes, add features add
problem areas.

~~~
4ad
I completely despise the new consumer facing electronics in cars. Not because
I find anything inherently wrong with electronics, but because I find the
software/electronics in every car, in literally _every car_ made today, cheap
or expensive, to be an epic disaster both from an industrial design, and
security standpoint.

Sadly, I think "normal" cars will go extinct the way non-smartphones and non-
smart TVs went extinct. It's impossible to buy a TV these days that is not
infected with Internet of Shit.

Where's the 70 Series Toyota Land Cruiser of today? The 70 series is still
being made, it's just not sold in developed countries. Why can't they just
make it emission compliant and sell that car in the EU and US? That's the car
I want!

~~~
dragonwriter
> It's impossible to buy a TV these days that is not infected with Internet of
> Shit.

It's possible, they are just called monitors or commercial displays; there's a
significant premium for them at typical living room TV sizes compared to
things marketed as “TVs”, though.

~~~
4ad
Yes, the "dumb" version is much more expensive than the "smart" version.

But that is not all of it. Most monitors approximate (some better than others)
sRGB, while TVs approximate (again some better than others) Rec. 709. Rec. 709
and sRGB share color primaries, so they have the same gamut, but Rec. 709 uses
a different transfer function. If you use the (profiled) monitor with a
computer that does color management, and use a color-managed video player, all
is well, but if you use the monitor as a "TV", without a computers, there's no
profiling and no color management, so the broadcast and movies will not appear
colorimetrically correct.

But wait, now we have Rec. 2020. I don't know if Rec. 2020 TVs are common now,
but they will become common soon enough. Computer monitors are very different
than Rec. 2020, even wide gamut ones. You _MUST_ use color management to
display Rec. 2020 on a computer monitor. Without a computer involved, computer
monitors can't display Rec. 2020 properly.

But that is not the final story still. TVs can generally do both 23.976 fps,
and 24 fps. Computer monitors very rarely can do this, generally reserved for
expensive models designed for professional media creation.

So even if you pay the huge "dumb monitor tax", you still can't get the same
result.

~~~
paulmd
Buy a J5005 NUC and be done with it. There's your computer.

------
Simulacra
I've always shied away from luxury brands because repairs are so expensive.
Little things like a switch, or a seat lever, or even trying to replace the
middle console lid because your kid scratched it up, is always more expensive
when its a luxury brand. Just because it comes from BMW doesn't mean it should
automatically be more expensive.

------
grewil2
I bought a plain, no turbo Volvo 940 for $1000 ten years ago. It's 25 years
old now, and still is very reliable. Newer Volvos seem a lot more complex, and
I can't help thinking that there's a lot more electronics and mechanisms that
can break than in the old construction. Edit: ugh, I just realised I have
become a grumpy old man.

~~~
jacquesm
Volvo is Chinese nowadays, the 940 you've bought is Swedish and no cost was
spared in making it that reliable. That's _also_ why Volvo is Chinese
nowadays.

~~~
zokula
By that logic Toyota should of been Chinese 20 years ago?

~~~
jacquesm
Toyota has always been very frugal while delivering quality, Volvo was not, so
no. And I think you meant 'have' instead of 'of'.

See also:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way)
, pay extra attention to section #2.

Volvo took a much more 'premium' route towards quality, starting with
galvanized steel bodies and other such costly measures, as well as producing
on less efficient lines than Toyota. Even so, their reputation until the
Chinese take-over was excellent, since then the division is as far as I know
profitable so maybe this is a happy medium between baked in quality and cost
to produce. But it will never go back to the 'tank' status that their older
line-up has, which in a way is good because the modern ones fare much better
in the crash tests than the oldies, even against mid-range cars in head-on or
side-on collisions.

On another note, given the history between the two countries I don't see the
Japanese government ok'ing a take-over of one of their prime brands by the
Chinese.

See:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan_relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan_relations)

~~~
turndown
[https://www.carcomplaints.com/Toyota/Corolla/2010/recalls/](https://www.carcomplaints.com/Toyota/Corolla/2010/recalls/)

I drive a 2010 Toyota Corolla :') - the philosophy sounds great but the
implementation is poor.

------
pravda
A few words about J.D. Power:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKN5Wl4uTyY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKN5Wl4uTyY)

------
diddid
I think one thing to remember that people who buy a Toyota drive it like
it's... a Toyota. Cars that are driven hard will break down faster than cars
that aren't, and I'm guessing the average BMW is pushed harder than the
average Toyota. My wife can put a hole in a pair of nice running shoes faster
than I can even wear tread off of a junky pair. Use matters, not all miles are
equal.

~~~
kenhwang
Doesn't explain the Porsche tie with Toyota unless you're suggesting Porsche
drivers are more like Toyota drivers than BMW.

~~~
theluketaylor
porsche builds their cars for track work, so even hard driving around town is
light load for them (maybe not the macan).

Hard launches are among the toughest thing you can do to an ICE car. Most cars
with launch control can do a few launches and then something overheats and the
car refuses to do any more for a while. A car journalist tried to launch a PDK
911 until it failed. He got bored after 50 straight launches and stopped.

~~~
kenhwang
Well, boredom and to commemorate the 911's 50th birthday.

------
dickeytk
The people that buy luxury cars don't care. It'll be under warranty during
this time and the dealer will offer a free loaner car while it is being
repaired. Most of these cars are leased and the ones that aren't will likely
be sold around the 3 year mark. There isn't much incentive for the
manufacturers to make them reliable unlike with mass market cars.

~~~
athenot
This is true. But there is an important corollary: never buy a used luxury car
that's in it's third phase of life (>120k mikes). Both the amount and the cost
of repairs are significantly higher. But it's a sucker's deal where people can
get a nice car for a while, but which will end up costing them way more than,
say, a moderately used Toyota.

~~~
dawnerd
A good channel does exactly that for entertainment
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdEczn3MVkx_4PnMZ10MVFA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdEczn3MVkx_4PnMZ10MVFA)

------
YeahSureWhyNot
"Luxury Brands" is a vague concept. Maserati, MB S Class, Cadillac Escalade,
BMW 7 Series are all luxuru vehicles but aren't supposed to hold up well. They
are expensive luxury toys, and cant be used as work horses like Lexuses or
Acuras are.

------
Neil44
I don’t think the survey takes into account the differing expectations of the
buyers of the different brands. Someone buying a Mercedes has different
expectations than someone buying a Corola and this would strongly influence
issue numbers.

~~~
gnicholas
Definitely true. I knew a guy who bought a BMW 5-series and was annoyed at a
whistling sound that it made. When you pay $50k+ for a vehicle, you expect
that it will perform at exacting standards.

Also, the fact that it's under warranty and the BMW dealership will give you a
loaner makes you more likely to take it in for extended
troubleshooting/repair.

------
albeec13
The title here, the title in the actual article, and the content of the
article aren't telling the same story.

Here: "Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands"

Article: "Toyotas and Chevys Are More Reliable Than BMW and Mercedes, J.D.
Power Finds"

Article content (paraphrasing): "Lexus, Porsche top the list" "Most German
manufacturers lag behind US"

So which is it? Bloomberg doesn't appear to be trying too hard here.

~~~
kenhwang
Bloomberg reporting can barely be called reporting. It's half-assed
regurgitated content that's often inaccurate these days.

------
sitkack
This is always true, the mass produced thing is going to have manufacturing
lines that are tuned. And Toyota or Chevy can't afford to have a recall on
something they made 100k of . Bespoke luxury vehicles are nearly hand made,
with all the errors that hand building entails.

Wear a timex, drive a toyota, compute with a thinkpad, listen to a yamaha and
process with a cuisanart.

------
davidw
I've driven a number of older Toyotas and (fingers crossed) that seems to be
my experience.

------
acroback
God bless my Mazda 3 2012.

I spent a total of $1200(wipers, tires, engine oil) in 100k miles and still
gives me 39 mpg on highways.

Love the car. My next Car is going to be either Japanese or a Korean.

------
vondur
Most people I know that have German usually have electronic/electrical issues.
The actual drivetrains are good but the electrical systems have a lot of
issues.

------
dsfyu404ed
Assessing "reliability" between brands is very hard (and a lost cause IMO)
because there's tons of things that have a large effect but are hard to
measure and quantify.

Reliability variation between models > reliability variation between brands.
Generally speaking cheap disposable appliance cars are cheap and disposable.
OEMs put much more effort into their flagship products and the products that
define their brand image.

Owner demographics have a large effect on reliability over the kind of 5+yr
timeline many commenters here seem to be talking in. The wealthier the owner
the better the vehicle is treated (at a statistical level, we all know one or
two rich guys who never change their oil). Rich people years vs poor people
years is like highway miles vs city miles. As vehicles get older they get
cheaper they move down the economic ladder which tends to complicate things a
little. In states with road salt wealthier people are much more likely to keep
their vehicles in garages or wash them regularly.

When it comes to vehicles >8yo (or whatever the oldest banks will write a loan
for at present) you see on the road is not necessarily what's reliable or
what's popular. The dealership auction system tends to siphon off vehicles
over a certain age and/or under a certain value to the South American (from
North America) and African/Middle Eastern (from Europe) markets. This means
that vehicles owned by the demographics that tend to trade in regularly
(wealthier on average) will not stick around as well as the vehicles owned by
people who don't or who tend to buy/sell private party (less wealthy on
average). So the old vehicle you see driving around are not necessarily a 1:1
representation of what was or wasn't reliable or what was or wasn't popular
back in the year they were sold. Different demographics keep vehicles for
different amounts of time. People tend to get new vehicles at life milestones
younger people are moving up in the world commuting, starting families and
this prompts them to change vehicle more often. Grandpa bought a 'Vic in '94
and has been driving it since.

Replacement cost greatly effects a how long a vehicle is kept in service.
Replacing a compact SUV is cheap compared to a 1-ton truck so at any point in
time the owner of the big truck is much more likely to fix any problem that
comes up rather than go looking for a replacement. Look at the 90s Fords you
still see around. Ford sold a TON of Explorers yet 1st and 2nd gen Explorers
are a rarity on the roads compared to F-series.

Also, just because you never see a particular make/model where you live
doesn't mean they don't exist in large numbers elsewhere.

There's probably a few things I'm forgetting but people would do well to keep
in mind all the things that aren't being controlled for when they read about
vehicle "reliability".

------
nkingsy
Lexus came in #1 followed by Porsche but that didn't make for as good of a
headline I guess.

------
babyslothzoo
Isn't this well known? Toyotas have legendary reliability

~~~
randcraw
But their truck frames are also legendary for rusting out -- a very expensive
repair.

~~~
babyslothzoo
Are they anymore so than other cars driven where they salt the roads? I have
not heard that.

~~~
lb1lf
Anecdotal experience (Long-time Land Cruiser owner in Western Norway where the
SOP at first snow is to salt the heck out of it) suggests that Toyotas do rust
like mad; I work hard all year keeping my Land Cruisers (a 1981 BJ42 and a
1998 KZJ95) reasonably rust-free. I have to treat them to lanolin twice a
winter season.

------
buboard
this is common knowledge among farmers here.

------
PaulHoule
A Cadillac is not just an expensive car, it is an expensive car to own. (Gas,
repair bills, etc.)

If you are a W-2 worker you have to be at work at a certain time and you need
a car that can start every morning so you can get to work on time.

Higher class people can afford multiple cars, take time off from work, take a
cab, etc.

The Cadillac brand is appealing to many lower class Americans so you often see
them in "bad" neighborhoods. Some would say the people there are not in a
hurry to get anywhere.

~~~
bdcravens
Puzzled why you would mention this brand, as it's never mentioned in the
article.

~~~
burger_moon
Perhaps because Cadillac is a brand by GM, the manufacturer who also makes
Chevy. Cadillac is the luxury brand of GM which would compete with luxury
brands.

~~~
bdcravens
Ditto for Infiniti (Nissan), Acura (Honda), and Audi (VW).

I realize none of those brands are useful for making unrelated demographic-
based comments, however.

~~~
petschge
For the Volkswagen group, I would list Bentley, Lamborghini or Bugatti as
their luxury offerings. Audi is more middle class and sold in large numbers,
at least in Europe.

~~~
danans
In the US, Audi, BMW and similar European brands are intentionally marketed as
a mid to high luxury vehicles to preserve their brand mystique. None of these
companies sell mass-market cars in the US in the same tier as mass-market cars
by Toyota, GM, etc. Most of these brands do sell mass-market cars in Europe,
though.

It's also worth noting that in the US, most families have had multiple cars
due to the lack of alternative transit options, and so families of modest
means buy lower cost vehicles as a result.

Only recently are multi-car households are seeing a big uptick in places like
the UK [1], and in many developed urban areas of Europe, the car is used by
families as a "weekend getaway" vehicle, not a daily commuter. When you only
have to buy one car, you might be able to afford more luxury.

[1] [https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/912000/two-cars-
ho...](https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/912000/two-cars-household-
soar-LV-insurance-competition-holiday-commuting-family-trip)

