
I Know What You Think of Me - jejune06
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/i-know-what-you-think-of-me/
======
nostromo
I had a talk with a friend recently who is newly single, and it was clear to
me that Facebook was making her crazy. She kept asking me questions about what
people that were friends with her and her ex thought of her, or were saying
behind her back, or were posting about her in a way that she couldn't see.

It was an uphill battle, but I finally convinced her of the truth: nobody
really talked about her or her ex that much at all. And what was said was
trite and banal, "Oh, I'm sad they broke up..."

This was a bit of revelation for her.

I think people that obsess over what is said about them behind their backs
should take that to heart. The truth is you probably spend a lot less time in
people's thoughts than you think you do.

~~~
Udo
Just for fun, I'd like to throw in my opposite experience. A few years ago I
was quite active on FB, you know, posting random thoughts and music videos and
stuff like that. The stuff I posted was indeed random, just things I liked and
wanted to share based on mood and ...well randomness. But unbeknownst to be,
an acquaintance of mine, who was at the time engaged in a horribly soapy love
triangle, got it into her head that I was speaking in code about her - more
specifically that I was totally in love with her and wanted to make her nicely
constructed love triangle into a quad-shape.

It didn't help that I really had been unlucky in love for months at that time,
and I once confided to said threesome girl my situation over a coffee. I did
express to her quite clearly who my "problem" person was, but for some reason
(and I learned that only much later from a meetup with her boyfriend) she
actually thought I was again speaking about her, in code. I was not. However,
she convinced a lot of people.

Only after noticing that quite a few friends and acquaintances were turning
their backs on me lately, and a few people coming out and saying strange
things like " _hey, what 's up with you and X, you gotta let her go, man_" or
even " _dude, I heard what you did and it 's not seriously not cool_" I
gradually learned that this person was waging an epic info war around and
about me, who supposedly couldn't stop hitting on her. Upon learning this, I
broke off contact immediately, but to my amazement the damage was still
unfolding.

I simply could not believe the amount of gossip and straight-up fantasy people
engaged in with me playing some kind of role in what had become a huge reality
soap opera. Honestly, I never thought I was that interesting. But that didn't
matter, because the made-up stuff just kept coming. It was as if I had a very
active doppelgänger walking and talking around somewhere. It was absolutely
stunning, and more than a bit horrifying. There are a lot of things I still
can't wrap my head around. What was she getting out of this? And all the time,
we had a "hey, let's grab a beer and cheer you up"-kind of relationship that I
thought was pretty good. Why would anyone do this? And why was everyone
willing to not only listen but also willing to add to this story?

Now, years later, my circle of friends has shrunken immensely. There are a lot
of people who won't talk to me anymore, and I never got to find out why
exactly. I only know that the moment I start asking questions, the whole
affair seems to get reactivated. One friend told me only recently (unprompted)
that there are so many conflicting stories about me in circulation, it's hard
to keep track of them all. And none of them is good.

Why me? I'm neither rich, nor good-looking, nor in any imaginable way socially
interesting. Seriously, it's stunningly stupid, and I can't for the life of me
understand what powers this process. But it happened. A home-made conspiracy
story. Sometimes, people really _do_ talk behind your back - a lot.

~~~
jarrett
This article was on the HN front page some time ago:

[http://chronicle.com/article/I-Will-Ruin-
Him/136693/](http://chronicle.com/article/I-Will-Ruin-Him/136693/)

It sounds like your situation is similar, though perhaps less extreme.

~~~
Udo
Maybe, but I think this is fundamentally different. Threesome Girl did not
have a real motive against me. In fact, we were still drinking buddies when I
learned what she had been doing this whole time. There was no love interest,
no need for revenge, nothing to gain from doing this. Yet, she did. And even
more puzzling: a lot of people helped her, she always had a lot of social
support. She was quite brilliant at that. Maybe - maybe getting that support
and recognition _was_ the motive, but she already kinda _had_ that before.

~~~
pohl
There are people who just love to surround themselves with drama.

~~~
pavs
Exactly, I know some people in real-life, immediate family members, people I
can't easily ignore even if I want to, who just loves to feed on drama.

I usually try to stay away from drama queens like my sanity depends on it, but
when family members do it, not easy or (always right) to ignore them. I tried
to explain, rationalize, reason with them and their drama ways; but it didn't
help much.

I think drama loving people are kind of addicted to how it makes them feel.

~~~
pohl
I think your last sentence is probably the best rational explanation:

foment drama --> experience drama --> dopamine hit...

------
obviouslygreen
This is a great article. Not good, great. It's a simple and objective look at
a very difficult truth: It's so very easy (and, in the author's assessment --
which I agree with -- so very normal) to look at yourself as the exception,
and to ignore or simply be ignorant of your own flaws, while eagerly pointing
out those of others.

I keep learning more about myself (not the pleasant things, of course) because
of this sort of introspection. I had absolutely none of it as a kid. I think
few people do, but the more you manage -- and the later in life you manage it
-- the harder it is to look back at yourself and not wince.

I'd say, and I think the author makes this point as well, at least in passing,
one of the hardest things is forgiving yourself when you step back and realize
how you've behaved (particularly after condemning others for the same
actions). It's a lot easier to take someone else's actions and say "well,
he/she didn't mean it" or "OK, that's just how people are" than to look at
yourself, know that yes, you did mean it or intend to do it, and no, you don't
really find it acceptable.

~~~
criswell
We judge others by their actions, ourselves by our intentions.

~~~
earbitscom
I tend not to do this, which is why I find myself at age 35 with practically
no grudges held and very few people who I cannot tolerate or even appreciate.
It also makes it easier to recognize whether something is reconcilable in
business, with employees, etc. Accidents happen, people make mistakes. I often
find that unless I truly believe something was done out of malice, I have very
little problem getting over it quickly.

~~~
dasil003
I'm also 35 and feel exactly the same way. This often gets me in trouble with
my wife when she exclaims "how could x have done y!" and I proceed to stick my
foot in mouth by saying "maybe they were thinking z".

~~~
bostonvaulter2
Hmmmm, it sounds like she may want empathy and the ability to vent rather than
any sort of solution or analysis. That's something that I've struggled with in
the past but I think I'm getting better at.

~~~
theorique
Women (especially significant others) tend to want you to agree with _them_ ,
not with the person they're complaining about.

Don't give an objective analysis of the situation with an account of the other
person's point of view, especially if your wife or girlfriend is in the midst
of emotionally venting. It won't be appreciated.

Once she's cooled off and feels listened to and heard, _then_ you can start to
reintroduce logical analysis and 'what was the other party thinking and why
did they do what they did'. But not right away.

~~~
mkr-hn
Goofball hypothesizing about people as grouped objects is always fun to read.
Wait, no. It's the other thing. Terrible to read.

------
lwhi
Earlier this evening I received a text message from a someone I felt I was
starting to have feelings for. Probably just infatuation, but possibly
something more.

Another text soon followed; one that was very affectionate.

In the 3 minutes between replying and receiving the apologetic _'... I'm sorry
that wasn't meant for you...'_ reply, I experienced a full range of emotions
from elation to embarrassment — disappointment to denial.

It's a funny old life. I found this article at the top of hacker news 5
minutes later. Definitely struck a chord.

~~~
robryan
Or it was and they are backtracking, although maybe not best to think too much
about that.

~~~
3minus1
or maybe be honest! why not.

------
Dove

        I’ve often thought that the single most devastating  
        cyberattack [would be] simply to simultaneously make 
        every e-mail and text ever sent universally public. 
        . . . . the fabric of society would instantly evaporate,
        every marriage, friendship and business partnership 
        dissolved.
    

I don't think it would be quite _that_ bad. There are _some_ people who lie to
everyone, but there are also some people who are decent and honest. Some
relationships would weather that kind of storm just fine.

In fact, maybe this is the optimist in me, or maybe I'm projecting, but I
think _most_ relationships would be just fine.

~~~
mpyne
I would indeed be concerned if everyone around me really lived in a bed of
lies _that_ deep.

I don't have many friends, but I have no reason at all to suspect that I
wouldn't still have those friends should such a thing occur.

~~~
moens
It would be a wonderful political hack though. Just thinking of a zero day
email dump hack makes me smile. The political fallout alone... just imagine.
Wow, I felt like I was channeling John Lennon there for a moment.

------
atourgates
I think the important question no-one seems to be asking is: what's up with
the goats? No seriously, for what reason does a NYT
contributor/essayist/cartoonist need goats on demand?

Also: I'm calling it now, "Uber for Goats" is the next big startup idea.

~~~
mjt0229
In Seattle, you can rent goats to help take care of pesky invasive vegetation
like blackberry bushes. Blackberries sound like a good idea until they take
over, and they're very difficult to remove. Goats will eat them, though, so
you can rent a small herd of goats and in a few days, the brambles will be
eaten back to a level where they can be dug up by the roots.

I have no idea whether this was the case in this particular situation.

~~~
homosaur
This is actually very common. You can make an nice chunk of change in the area
between KY and SC renting out your goats to destroy kudzu.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIoRJG2yDoI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIoRJG2yDoI)

UK prof points out the obvious proposition, you keep a proper goat/kudzu ratio
and it's MONEY TREE

------
6d0debc071
When I was younger my mother used to tell me that the family that plays
together stays together, and that's a pattern I've found repeated more
generally in life: I tend to look at my friendship in terms of what people do
with me. What activities we engage in together.

Interpretation is all well and good, but if you don't really do anything
together what are they interpreting? It's a relationship built on dreams and
imagination. And what do they really stand to lose in thinking poorly of you?

I'm actually constantly amazed by how strong friendships are, and how much
people seem to respect each other. It seems like most people are only weakly
friends, and that more by necessity than anything else. What interests do you
really share with people? It's hard to think of having a really serious
disagreement with someone from the office - you sympathise with them even if
they'd be bores were you to meet them under other conditions.

From my perspective the world seems full of friendships and relationships that
people invest heavily in emotionally and yet seem terrifyingly fragile.
(Pretty amazing that they don't fall apart more regularly.) Maybe people would
be happier and more secure if they paid more attention to the things they
enjoy and the people they enjoy them with than being bothered about what
just... other people... think of them - I don't know.

For myself, I know that I'd be very worried if it turned out that someone,
even someone close to me, regularly spent a significant amount of their time
just thinking about me. I have my own life and interests, and expect others to
have theirs too - being elevated to some ideal of perfection in someone's
world is a little creepy.

------
siavosh
When I worked at a financial firm, we were regularly reminded not to write any
emails that we wouldn't mind being printed on the front page of a newspaper.
It's a tough habit to keep in mind, especially for non-work emails, but it's a
good litmus test and it's helped me edit some emails before pressing 'send'.

~~~
srl
Although it's clear what you meant, as you wrote the sentence, it has a
somewhat more entertaining. You meant, "that we would mind being printed...".
As written, it meshes nicely with my opinion of the financial sector.
(/tongue-in-cheek)

------
wwweston
> "I’ve often thought that the single most devastating cyberattack a
> diabolical and anarchic mind could design would not be on the military or
> financial sector but simply to simultaneously make every e-mail and text
> ever sent universally public... the fabric of society would instantly
> evaporate, every marriage, friendship and business partnership dissolved.
> Civilization ... is held together by a fragile web of tactful phrasing,
> polite omissions and white lies"

Dr. Doofenshmirtz agrees:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvELB_lHsXQ#t=4m19s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvELB_lHsXQ#t=4m19s)

~~~
saraid216
Hail to the whistleblowers, then?

------
lucb1e
Just wanted to remark

> the dreadful consequence of hitting "reply all" instead of "reply" or
> "forward."

This is why I never write things down that I wouldn't want to end up being
read by the subject. Ever. Regardless I'll always go over the To-, CC- and
BCC-list three times, but negative (unconstructive) things should be said only
by mediums that you can expect to be entirely private. E-mail might be read by
others when the colleague would leave the company or something, the sysadmins
may snoop it, or he might just be standing by when the recipient receives the
message. Or the colleague might make a mistake in sending it.

Not that I talk about others that much behind their backs, or at least I hope
I don't unconsciously do it too much, but still.

Edit:

> a staircase you could descend deep underground, in which you heard
> recordings of all the things anyone had ever said about you, both good and
> bad. The catch was, you had to pass through all the worst things people had
> said before you could get to the highest compliments at the very bottom.

That sounds incredibly awesome. I'd force myself to descend all the way, and I
think it'd be good. Make me realize how bad some things have been and what I
can improve, but also make it a rewarding experience in the end that motivates
to continue doing the good things and do more good things.

------
WalterBright
If you want to have some fun, take a dance class, and then have someone
videotape you dancing.

It's usually pretty horrifying.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I went once with a friend to a club and he said that I really stand out of the
crowd as a geek. I said: impossible, prove it. He took out his phone and
recorded 30 seconds of me dancing. It took me watching just two seconds from
this movie to realize he was right.

I don't frequent dance floors much since then. Still haven't got over it.

------
sockgrant
What's interesting is that it seems like the less you care what people think
about you, the more people like you. You become more genuinely you. This makes
you unique and interesting.

Besides, people can see through someone trying too hard.

------
robg
I often struggle with the most basic question of them all: Who am I?

To me, how I live my life is the only way to answer that attempt at self-
reflection. Yet, we are not what we do. That's the dodge that plagues me.

~~~
zaptheimpaler
Each of us is two very different people - the one we know, and the one others
know.

I've found that self-reflection only takes me so far because of how charitable
we tend to be to ourselves. I'm trying to get to know the me that others know
- the me composed of my actions and their perceived motives and outcomes. It's
deeply discomforting how different that me is from the one I know.

Try this - record a few of your phone conversations (with the other persons
permission) over a week and listen to them. I found that the person on the
phone is pretty far from who I thought I am.

------
joelhooks
I worked at a high end law firm for a couple of years and there was a
paralegal that was routinely abused by her boss. She got fed up after seeing
an email thread and took it to the managing partner. The managing partner was
a really great guy, and his solution was to let her print all of the offending
attorney relevant email threads and distribute them to the entire office. It
was righteous. It surprised the attorney, as she had her emails published and
she was fired on the same day.

------
hawkharris
The sensation that the author describes -- that uncomfortable feeling of
realizing that you're being viewed as just as another person, not always in a
positively light -- is similar to what I feel when I think about unlawful
surveillance, including programs like PRISM.

------
Deejahll
The author of this article, Tim Kreider, may be better known by some of us
Internet folk as purveyor of the fine web-comic "The Pain":
[http://thepaincomics.com/](http://thepaincomics.com/)

------
incision
I like to think I became pretty adept and being unconcerned about other's
opinions and honest yet selective about voicing my own relatively early on.

Though I was quite happy internally and I do believe it was a net win
socially, living that way isn't without its own problems.

As a result, I've had to learn to feign back the other way to some degree.

------
mustafakidd
Ahh - I love Tim Kreider. Find him hilarious, poignant, extremely witty, and
intelligent. Mentioned elsewhere, but if it helps drive more people to his
site, here it is: [http://thepaincomics.com/](http://thepaincomics.com/)

~~~
Garoof
Never heard of him,

"The context is that I had rented a herd of goats for reasons that aren’t
relevant here and had sent out a mass e-mail with photographs of the goats
attached to illustrate that a) I had goats, and b) it was good."

but he seems like an awesome guy :D

Thanks for the link.

------
bradenb
I am painfully aware of how much energy I expend trying to prop myself up
above others. Whether I am delicately explaining how I would have done it
differently or just fidgeting with my clothes to make myself look better in
that place's light, I end up feeling like I'm acting fake. Maybe I am.

Regardless, I think there's little we can do about it. Anytime I overcome the
urge to make myself look better to the strangers around me, it is done through
no small amount of conscious effort. It is so much easier to just give in to
my genetic encoding and try to appear more fit than to make my existence
easier.

~~~
r00fus
Or in my case, I spend a lot of time in denial about how much I intend not
do... do exactly what you're describing, but finding out after the fact (re-
playing conversations with others, or listening to complaints from my family)
that I, unbeknownst to my conscious mind, do exactly that.

------
snorkel
If you work at a company that enforces 360 peer reviews you'll get to find out
what everyone thinks of you whether you want to or not.

------
charleslmunger
This is basically what happened in the diplomacy world when the State
Department cables were leaked.

------
michaelochurch
This brings to mind why people who are socially inept tend to fall behind
further in interpersonal skill, unless they make concerted efforts to improve
themselves. When you start developing the ability to read people, it's painful
because you realize that most people passively dislike you.

It gets a little better when you realize that most of the low-level passive
dislike is impersonal. Passive dislike of others (perceived as intruders, a
"crowd", etc.) is the norm, and taking offense to human traits that evolved in
times of scarcity and fear makes no sense. When you're socially inept and
perceive others as unfairly exaggerating your faults, it feels like
persecution. Reality is that people just exaggerate _everyone 's_ faults
because it's how humans are.

Learning what people really are is painful and demoralizing if you're socially
average or above, but it's devastating for people who are socially inept.

~~~
nollidge
Passively dislike you, or just don't have any particular interest in you
whatsoever? (Or is that exactly what you mean by "passive dislike"?)

~~~
michaelochurch
Mostly "no particular interest", but passive dislike comes from an
(understandable) fear of congestion.

All else being equal, you'd rather fewer people be where you are than many.
You'd rather ride a half-empty plane than a full one. You'd rather your
favorite restaurant be quiet and spacious than crowded and loud. Of course,
everyone has specific people they'd prefer to be around... but we're mostly
irritated by crowds and be around people we didn't select. That's just how we
are. We're animals, and every animal exhibits heightened cognitive load when
animals of the same species (conspecific individuals) are in range.

This is not worth getting angry about. It's just how the world seems to work.
Even if the world isn't congested, it almost always feels that way... and to
most people, you and I are part of the problem. When you drive, you're part of
"traffic".

------
rheide
I wonder if the author ever emails one of the two friends about the other.
It's unfair if only one side of the private emails gets opened, but the other
stays hidden. Also, given that presumably you're still friends after this
incident, who cares? A single email is a ridiculously small facet of a person
to base an opinion off of.

And if you weren't friends but just colleagues, who cares? You've just learned
an important bit of information: your colleagues don't approve of your
expenditures. This will help you plan your future. Take it and learn. More
information is hardly ever bad.

~~~
bobz
I'm pretty sure you didn't actually read most of this article.

