
Want to Spam Your LinkedIn Contacts and Be Humiliated? Try FounderDating - tlrobinson
http://ilikestuffblog.com/2013/04/26/do-you-want-to-spam-your-linkedin-contacts-and-be-humiliated-try-founderdating/
======
jayp
The name sounded familiar. This company is a bit spammy anyway.

I am part of the Silicon Valley Java User Groups meetup. I got this e-mail
from one of their employee in early March:

====

Hey fellow Dev's,

I'm a ux designer who just joined the community and I wanted to share info
about a great service that seems super relevant for this crew - FounderDating
(no, it's not romantic). FounderDating (FD) is an invite-only, online network
for entrepreneurs to connect with cofounders. Why FD?

High Quality - members are carefully screened for quality and readiness (no
recruiters, etc.) Applications and members’ identities are confidential, but a
few of the folks who are part of the network are former founders or early
employees from: stackmob, Salesforce, Zynga, Loggly and Gilt just to name a
few.

Balanced - 50% engineering & 50% non-engineering

Reach- FD’s online network allows you to connect with people in your city and
beyond to share ideas and begin building something you’re passionate about.

No Idea Necessary - FD is about the people, so you don’t need to have an idea,
just be ready to work on a serious side project

The deadline is April 8th, so apply now.
<http://members.founder[redacted].com/application>

Cheers and feel free to reach out to me off-list with questions, Abby

===

BTW, this is "Abby's" meetup page: <http://www.meetup.com/sv-
jug/members/8035133/>. Not sure if she also goes by another name (Gail) or
what. Let's give her the benefit of doubt.

Who joins a new meetup and right away sends plugs for their own project? At
least, I don't think that's the norm.

~~~
ysapir
Maybe Abby is Abby Beck, Designer Extraordinaire who makes user friendly
products - <http://founderdating.com/about/who-we-are-2/>

On various meetup pages, Abby also describes herself as a designer.

I am sorry now I signed up to unlock my city.

~~~
jamesaguilar
Who do all those ManagingDirectors [sic] direct? Title inflation ahoy.

~~~
mmorett
Those ManagingDirectors [sic] are not employees. I'm familiar with two of
them. They are folks in the startup space, likely operating in an advisory
role, probably brought on to lend credibility to the company. Or maybe they
were brought on for access to their contacts.

This is as misleading as the stunt they pulled with spamming that poor guy's
LinkedIn contacts. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

------
obviouslygreen
It's surreal that, after all the blow-up-in-your-face moments that social
media apps have had after doing underhanded things like this in recent memory,
companies are still pushing under-the-radar hard sells like this. It has to
take an incredible combination of obliviousness and ethical failure to still
consider something like this a good idea.

Also, this gives me a very vivid sense of deja vu; I swear I read this exact
article at some point last year... strange.

~~~
jfarmer
It's not really an under-the-radar hard sell. Here's the page in question,
which nobody in this thread can be arsed to look at:
<http://cl.ly/image/2V302C3j290B>

Now, I can see how one might miss the fact that this will send an email.

Things you can say if you're being intellectually honest:

    
    
      * The fact that this will send an email should be more prominent
      * The content of the email should be more explicit
      * The tone of the email was overly personal
      * The from: field appears as if it's from the person, not FD
    

Things you can't say if you're being intellectually honest:

    
    
      * The form is opt-out
      * There's no copy on the page indicating an email will be sent
      * The copy on the page is hidden below the fold
      * The copy on the page is worded designed to mislead the user
      * The fact that clicking submit will send an email is obscured
      * There is no indication about the content or tone of the email that will be sent
    

Looking at this page, the most aggressive case I can make is for a slightly
confusing design that should better highlight the consequences of choosing
vouchers. It doesn't seem in any way misleading and doesn't show any of the
fingerprints of someone looking to trick a user into accidentally emailing
their friends.

~~~
wooster
That's not the page the blog post is talking about. The page the blog is
talking about is the one people are sent to after they vouch for someone who
has filled out that page.

~~~
jfarmer
Fair enough. Before people jump on the "omg spam" train they should take it
upon themselves as thinking individuals to look at the primary source.

I just created a fake LinkedIn account and will post a similar (and honest)
analysis after I receive the invite.

The fact that nobody in this thread bothered to do their due diligence before
pouncing is enough for me to discount their opinions as uninformed. But we'll
see what the actual page looks like in a sec.

~~~
doktrin
Screenshot & description :

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5677462>

------
jmalter
Actually, I'm the CEO of FOunerDating and what's surprising is that no one has
actually asked if this is what really happens. We not only state (in white
writing) on black backgroud) that "a message will be sent to your chosen
linkedin contact) and let you see the message but it's also completely opt-in
- no tricks where you can't find the "x". People can choose to a) not send or
choose who they send a message to. There is nothing sneaky about it. If
someone doesn't read the line "this will send a message" there isn't much we
can do about that.

~~~
milkshakes
For the record, "opt in" has a specific meaning. For your spamming to be
considered "opt in", a user would have to actively take an action that
indicates that they want you to spam their friends. What you have described
appears to be an "opt out" scenario.

~~~
parfe
> _I didn’t have to do it but I thought oh well, I guess I’ll do it and see
> what happens._

The guy whining in the blog post exactly opted in.

~~~
flexxaeon
For context:

> _FounderDating asked me to identify ten that I would vouch for. I didn’t
> have to do it but I thought oh well, I guess I’ll do it and see what
> happens. So all I did was click their photos. Nothing more._

Can't speak to the rest of the flow but clicking photos indeed sounds like
opting in.

~~~
nym
Yes, he opted in to "vouch for" those people. A ethical UX designer would have
shown a modal showing the full message with the list of people it would go to
BEFORE sending it on the user's behalf.

------
awolf
I'm the first to jump into the pit and start publicly shaming companies that
abuse my privacy but in this case I'm not sure FounderDating deserves as much
flak as it's getting:

1) Selection of which contacts to message was opt-in. The OP decided that he
wanted to send a message to a particular subset of his contacts.

2) There was a View/Edit message link that the OP didn't bother to utilize.

So between 1) and 2), we have case where somebody opted-in to having a service
message their contacts, didn't look to see what that message was going to be
even though they had the option to, and then got angry when they discovered
they didn't like the content of the message that they could have viewed or
edited beforehand.

The "I highly recommend applying... you'll thank me later" piece of the
message is certainly inappropriate because this was a "get friend to vouch for
you" feature, not a "recommend founder dating feature". Still, I don't see
this as "spamming your LinkedIn contacts" nor a massive violation of trust.
Also, OP's failure to mention the existence of the View/Edit Message link in
his rant seems rather dishonest.

Edit: I'd love if the early down-voters could explain why they disagree. You
seem to have read my entire message in about 20 seconds..

~~~
BMorearty
Good points. A clarification (also stated in the first paragraph of the post):
this was not "get a friend to vouch for you." This was "who would you vouch
for?"

I am the OP.

~~~
awolf
Thanks for the clarification. I'd say as long as it was clear that a message
was going to be sent, then a the "Who would you vouch for?" context actually
makes the recommendation _less_ inappropriate and puts FD even more in the
right.

(Of course, there is still the questionable practice of writing such an
enthusiastic endorsement in the first person, but again you had final veto
powers on the wording and you opted in to it. Such practices are unfortunately
"par for the course" nowadays.)

~~~
doktrin
> _Such practices are unfortunately "par for the course" nowadays_

This is the most extreme faux-1st-person endorsement I've ever seen. It makes
schoolFeed look positively reserved.

Even if it were the norm (which, based on the response here, it clearly
isn't), something being common doesn't make it the least bit right. That's the
worst kind of complacency.

------
natrius
Aside from this being really uncool, FounderDating doesn't really work anyway.
I've done it. Gathering a whole bunch of people who have an idea they want to
work on in one place doesn't lead to very many of them pairing up and ditching
one of the ideas. It's a lot easier to meet future co-founders, potential
hires, and potential bosses before you actually need them. That's how
networking works.

I'm toying around with a free, open source solution to this problem that
reflects its true nature. If you're interested in contributing, contact info's
in my profile.

~~~
acgourley
I think it's more likely to be effective than blind networking. Building an
early team just a fundamentally hard problem with no single / quick solution.
FWIW I've met very helpful (non-cofounder) people through the site. In it's
capacity to be a more startup-specific linkedin, it's interesting.

------
alain94040
Happened to me too. Very spammy (I reported it to LinkedIn too, I hope they
kill their API access).

First, I received a private email from a close friend I trust. Didn't know he
was quitting his job and starting something new. All he was asking was for me
to vouch for him. Ok. Then a few days later, he told me I should join too.
That got really weird.

Looks like I wasn't the only one being played.

------
mnicole
Hey guys --

 _jmalter_ is the founder of FounderDating.

 _jfarmer_ is the founder of Everlane.

Both have terrible UX, but only one of them is being a total ass in this
thread (vs. pretending to be oblivious to dark patterns). Mind who you're
insulting about their behavior.

~~~
mmorett
"but only one of them is being a total ass in this thread"

lol. And the winner is: jmalter.

------
mtrimpe
Surprisingly enough this is one thing I really like Facebook for.

I _always_ select "Visible only to me" (and of course never grant messaging
rights.) The app can't tell the difference and if I really like it I'll green
light it once I see what they actually post on my behalf.

Given that your relationship with your contacts list on LinkedIn is much more
fragile I'm really surprised they haven't given this more attention yet.

------
tzm
I generally assume that every site that gains access to my contact list will
try to exploit them without my consent. It's very easy as a developer to do,
so I look for dark patterns in the onboarding process that give me red flags
into their principles. FounderDating was one that I initially used and
immediately deleted after realizing they were attempting to spam.

------
mariusz331
This reminded me that one of my friends wanted a recommendation from me on
FoundersDating. I got to the form you're talking about and here is a
screenshot:

<http://imgur.com/KSsinEq>

On the bottom left corner, you'll see they tell you that they'll send a
message to your chosen contacts. You can also edit the message.

<http://imgur.com/yA8tHNP>

The text is really small. I may not have noticed it had I not been looking for
it. Also, I don't know when this was added.

~~~
TannerLD
Seeing the screenshot (not having looked at the site or anything), the
"see/edit this message" is pretty small. Everyone else isn't exaggerating when
they say it is small.

I also think it's important to notice that the big, friendly button says
"Agreed". "Agreed" doesn't lead me to think that it will send a message, just
that I will vouch for them.

~~~
mmorett
The button should say "Agreed. And send the message to my Contacts."

No one would press that. Hence the fraud.

------
homosaur
Honestly, I don't know what the hell some of these companies are thinking but
sure wish I had a blacklist of all of them that abuse contacts so I can never
ever patronize them.

~~~
nym
I would use this chrome/ff extension!

------
devgutt
I'm in SF for a month and stumbled upon this web site that seems interesting
to find co-founders and like minded entrepreneurs to exchange ideas and maybe
some early feedback about my upcoming launch startup. I tried to sign up but
dropped in the middle and received the follow email:

 _Hey, I saw that you started to apply for FounderDating yesterday but haven’t
finished it yet. Just wanted to reach out and see if there is anything I can
help with - I’m on the community team? Happy to answer questions or if you’re
set highly recommend taking 3 minutes to finish it up Finish it up and submit
here >> Here to help, Kristen_

I responded:

 _Hi Kristen, I don't have a LinkedIn account. This is the reason that I
haven't finished._

The answer surprised me. No workaround.

 _Hi: We do require a LinkedIn account, it's the easiest way for applicants to
save time and pull in past experience and education. Would love to see your
application, Kristen_

Why on earth a company rely so tightly in another company like that. Well, the
post gave me a clue.

------
joelandren
Congrats, you have been GrowthHacked™!

------
nollidge
> I figured behind the scenes maybe they would send notes to these people,
> telling them their contact Brian Morearty had used FounderDating, and
> suggesting that they try it too.

How is _that_ even acceptable? Obviously it's far less insidious, but it still
sucks.

------
hoopism
Your social contacts are currency these days. I could see being burned by
this, so I won't say something stupid like he deserved it... but I also feel
like he deserved it.

------
jarjoura
LinkedIn is full of embarrassments. I have no idea why it continually begs me
to scrape my gmail inbox for contacts? There is no way my inbox represents
business associations that I want shared with anyone let alone LinkedIn.

------
kalleboo
This is a deceptive, but it's not anything who hasn't used a Facebook app in
the past 5 years hasn't been trained to avoid. It makes the OP sound very
naive.

------
vertis
It's because of similar experiences to this that I will avoid using a social
network to sign up for things if it has access to anything more than my
details.

------
evolve2k
[CEO responded, see buried comment from 'jmaleter' currently about half way
down the comments].

------
davidmspi
This happened to me! I had to apologize to so many people.

