
Why only few number of IIT kids end up doing startups - Aarvay
http://aarvay.in/2012/07/09/why-only-few-number-of-iit-kids-end-up-doing-startups/
======
kamaal
A lot of IIT kids go for a further MBA, and then want to work at an investment
bank. Same as many Standford, MIT, <insert any Ivy league university here>.

The reason is obvious. In India people bet their lives and career on
education. Namely Medicine and Engineering. Occasional other professions are
CA, MBA etc also workout. Leave the rich kids aside. For most middle class
folks, it takes lifetime savings and slogging by parents to get their kids
till here. And it makes 0 sense for them, to take undue risk and bet on the
start up lottery.

Go out and take a job, or do an MBA. Save a little here and there, invest in
gold, kids and real estate. You might as well retire old, have enough money to
put food on your table, pay for your rent, medical expenses and die
gracefully.

Or ride the start up lottery, take risks. Fail. If no luck after a long time,
watch your peers rise to big places in corporates- marry a girl, have
kids,send them to posh schools, have a car and live in a 80L 3BHK Flat. While
you are stuck here, amidst losses in business, life and most importantly
terrible loss in time.

No one likes to spend best years of their life on tasks where there is 90%
failure, Especially in a country like ours battling corruption and
bureaucracy.

Besides, start up scenario is not very glorious in India. Recently I
interviewed for a Start up in Bangalore. After interviews went fine, and they
were ready to offer me. We sat down for negotiations. They were neither ready
to offer stocks, nor a good pay, nor perks, no incentives.

In short he tried to tell me to spend years of my life working very hard to
make him rich, and him rich alone. For a meager salary and absolutely nothing
else.

For incentives like these, why would anybody want to work at a start up?

~~~
wpietri
This strikes me as some cultural equivalent of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs>

Internet startup people are generally focused on the top layers, self-
actualization and esteem. They are confident they can meet the more basic
needs (love, safety, food & water) somehow, even if the business fails.

~~~
kamaal
That is true only for US start ups or in general people from developed
nations. That's because most of your basic needs food, clothing and shelter
are to an extent taken care of. For example social security is a very good
thing in the US. If you are screwed, the government can support you for a
while. So you can always dream a little big as smaller things are taken care
of. You can focus your energy on doing things that are more important and add
more value.

In India, you have to worry about all the low level things. Else you are
screwed. If you don't have enough savings in old age and your kids refuse to
take care of you, you are screwed. Because you have no money, no place to
live, no food to buy, no clothes, no health care. Forget of all that even as a
youngster, you will have a tough time if you aren't earning well.

I think a part of a larger plan for India must be first achieve food security,
a good social security system, and a sound health care means. Else people will
never have the freedom to work on more important things, and will go in cycles
working for the most basic needs.

But things are changing now.

~~~
krishnakv
So do I hear a +1 for good social security? Looks like a very clear line from
having social security and a safety net to leading in science, tech and
inventions/ start-ups, which is growth, i.e. the lifeblood of any economy.

~~~
kamaal
Not everyone thinks like that. Besides when a person wants money for survival
larger view of the economy is the last he will care about.

All I'm saying is people who work their whole lives to get their kids a decent
education and those kids themselves are most likely to take a safer path in
life. Because they want all their sacrifice to result in a better life. I am
not saying start ups don't offer that. But start ups are often risky and
ridden by failures. Who would like to be in a situation where they see their
parents slog their whole lives to put them a decent place, and now as kids
they waste all that by failing in things whose risks they understood pretty
well. In such cases, will the parent lives, their work have any meaning?

Now imagine a situation if your basic education, food, clothing and shelter
are more or less taken care of. You have good medical care. You don't have to
take any risks to just survive. You know if you fail, you always have some
basic things taken care of. The infrastructure is there, there is lesser
corruption and bureaucracy to worry about.

When you ask why people are afraid to take risks its the former reason.

In the latter situation risk only has a time value, and nothing much.

------
rushabh
IITs are highly overhyped, mass education institutes. No wonder there is very
little innovation coming out of IITs, compared to Stanford and MIT, given the
high quality of students.

I recently attended the Ubuntu launch event at the Mumbai's IIT and Dr Phatak,
who now heads India's cheap tablet project did a talk. To my surprise, there
was not even _one_ question from the audience of bright IIT students.

They also have poorly executed projects like "Spoken Tutorials"
<http://spoken-tutorial.org/> that were presented and it was all very
depressing.

I would not expect good quality startups from IITs.

~~~
shriphani
Maybe this is because "Ubuntu launch event" attendees can have all their
questions answered with project wikis? I can't imagine what pressing questions
google and wikipedia can't solve about the latest ubuntu.

Also, a Godel prize was won in this decade at IITK (for AKS) and (not sure
about this) Niraj Kayal (the K in AKS) began working on this during his
undergrad years.

I didn't graduate from an IIT (different continent) but my friends from there
executed very well in their internships, theses, grad school applications,
papers etc. Talent is not geographically bound and to a certain extent JEE
performance correlates with good reasoning and math skills (universally
transferable in engineering at least).

~~~
rushabh
The talk was on the Aakash tablet, India's very ambitious and highly
controversial and potentially disastrous low cost tablet project [1]. Dr
Phatak is one of the top adivsors to the Indian government on e governance and
the recently appointed head of the project. I can't believe there were no
questions for that talk.

Confession: I did not ask one either, as I was not as well aware of the latest
developments. I questioned the next presenter though who talked about the
Spoken Tutorial. And it was the only question asked.

[1] [http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/167/aakash-tablet-
india-...](http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/167/aakash-tablet-india-tech-
industry)

~~~
shriphani
I am really not sure what can be asked whose answer won't be a rehash of the
gov's PR. I can't expect why the average person in India would scream
"Scandal!" at the project's failure - the government doesn't have a fantastic
track record and doesn't have the resources to attract the kind of people that
can make such stuff (i.e. the Aakash Tablet) happen. The average Indian isn't
so concerned about their government screwing up because that is the norm.

Anyway that was offtopic. The IITs have a very high average IQ that manifests
itself well in the form of publications and the accomplishments of the
alumni/students/faculty - they are definitely not "education factories" and an
engineering degree from there is very respected. Pitting them against
institutions with endowments in excess of 8bn is unfair.

~~~
sundae79
Sure they do, that is why there is not a single nobel prize won by an IITian
when ten Indians have a nobel prize.

~~~
shriphani
I assume a lot of IIT's top faculty and brightest kids major in engineering.
That puts their nobel count at a disadvantage.

~~~
sundae79
I agree with you. IITians are not good at fundamental science for which nobel
is awarded, otherwise they would have gotten it by now.

------
catchmrbharath
Actually there are three kinds of people at IITs. The really good guys who are
very good at academics and know a lot of stuff and love to hack. These people
generally are enticed by trivial ideas. They want to contribute in a more
meaningful way. Most of them go for PhD's. These people would love to have
startups, but it is very difficult in India to actually have product startups.
The startup culture is nothing compared to what the culture is in the US.

Also, most of the IITians (at least the CS and elec guys) get very challenging
jobs. These jobs satisfy most of the people.

Then there is the second set of guys who go for Mckenzie, DB kind of jobs.
These guys are good, but don't really know what to do. They are confused and
take up the most safe option. There are a few here who want to do startups,
but they are not able to get people who are really good and who are really
enthusiastic. I guess it is difficult to do startups alone.

Then they are the vetti ( lazy) people who haven't really put any effort in
their academics or anything else. They would be obviously not enthusiastic to
do a start up and you would not want them on your team if you are starting up.

I guess if the startup culture on India changes a lot, then there is a fair
possibility that a lots of IITians will do startups. It is changing now, and
there is a fair share of IITians starting up. Flipkart is an example. A couple
of my friends started this(<http://www.desto.in/>)

------
solutionyogi
It's all about risk vs reward. Most of the IIT kids come from middle or lower
middle class families. Generally, affluent kids don't really bother with IIT
as it requires a lot of hard work to get into.

I grew up in lower middle class and my dad worked really hard to put me
through school. I did freelancing to pay for my own college. (I studied in
NIT, not IIT). After I finished graduation, I wanted to earn money so that I
can support my family. There is no way, I could have told my family that I
want to take a chance on this start up for an eventual big exit.This was not
the only major factor. I had a 'scooter' when I went to college as I couldn't
afford motorbike. As a young 21 year old, I wanted to get a well paid IT job
so that I can buy the bike (and other toys) that I have been eyeing for so
long. When you have just graduated after working so hard, you want to reap the
rewards right away. I can bet that good number of IIT grads feel that way.

Let's fast forward to 2012. I have a friend, who studied at IIT-Mumbai, quit a
well paying job in the USA and went to Bangalore to start a data warehouse
startup. Another friend decided to go to India and start his own gym. After
working for 7 years in the USA, I have made some savings and I think I can now
take chances. I have been working on my idea on side and see if I can quit
full time job.

------
adaml_623
Don't know what IIT or FMCG stands for but...

one of the recurring themes on HN is that the desire to create or even work in
a startup is relatively rare.

~~~
rkwz
IIT - Indian Institute of Technology FMCG - Fast Moving Consumer Goods

------
buyx
I don't know much about India, but what has always me from making the leap to
entrepreneurship in South Africa is that there is no safety net if things go
wrong. I wonder if a similar dynamic exists in India.

Yes, we have a public health service with free care in South Africa, but the
state hospitals are in a shocking state. Private healthcare and health
insurance is very expensive, and there is no in-between state provided
insurance option (like US Medicaid). If you get sick without health insurance,
you will end up in a shocking state hospital to be neglected and abused.

Yes, we have free public education, but the public schools are in a poor
state. You don't want your kids going to a public school (some good government
schools exist but they are difficult to get into if you don't live in the
expensive feeder areas, and they charge substantial fees).

From what I've read about India, the state is fairly incompetent (more so than
even South Africa), and I wonder if people choose to work for BigCo, rather
than risk total catastrophe if things go wrong.

The level of risk in SV (or any first-world country) if things go wrong is
probably an order of magnitude smaller than it would be in a third-world
country.

------
jagira
_> > Solution is, they should have that “drive” within them. That’s the main
quality they miss among others. They should realize it. _

Funny that you came to an inference and termed it as a solution.

Do you have any pointers on improving that situation? How can you enable your
fellow batchmates to realize that _"inner drive"_?

------
alberich
I have two disagreements with this article.

The first is the assumption that everybody wants "Very interesting and
absorbing work" - I guess that is not very accurate, maybe most people want to
feel useful or part of something bigger. However, there are lots of people
that don't want to spend their time under high pressure if they can just get a
regular job and enjoy the good life (you know, traveling, going out with
friends, practicing a hobby).

And the second is: "Solution is, they should have that “drive” within them." -
This is not really a solution, this may be what is missing for those people to
become entrepreneurs, but telling people that they miss something is not a
solution. Solution would be to come out with a method for building up drive.

------
abhaga
Did anyone compile the data to check if the premise of the article is even
true? Is the percentage of IITians starting their own businesses significantly
less as compared to other engineering colleges? Is it less than all
undergraduate programs? Is it less than all <insert a control hypothesis>?
Also do the IITians working for a startup count?

May be it is just a perception thing? I believe that to be the case. When
compared to their peer group from other engineering colleges, I am quite sure
they come out favorably.

Disclaimer: I am an IITian and so is my partner and we are both entrepreneurs.
Perhaps it is self selection at play but I know a lot of entrepreneurs in my
IIT network.

------
lewstherin
"Me : I am not sure whether I can generalize." That was the clearest, most
rational thought in the entire post and it is unfortunate that you did not pay
heed to it.

1\. These guys have worked pretty hard and/or are pretty damned smart which
was the reason they got in there in the first place. The placement
opportunities reflect exactly that and that is a pretty strong incentive for
them not to launch their own startup.

2\. Getting some working experience is a very good thing because their jobs
offer them great exposure and experience, a pretty strong network of people
and a clearer picture of what they are up against. While jumping off a cliff
might be very brave and fashionable thing to do, it might not always be the
smartest.

The startup ecosystem sucks in India and is nothing compared to the US (I
leave room for the grass is greener effect - I don't think that is the case
here). Funding is hard to come by and most business don't like dealing with
startups. When the odds are that badly stacked against you, a broader network
of people helps enormously.

3\. A good %age are _gasp_ actually interested in their engineering courses
(IITM particularly has a healthy number & tradition) and pursue further
studies abroad. A few of them go on to start their own companies in the US and
others contribute to startups there.

4\. When I see the word solution, I expect to actually see a solution - not
read why you think it is an inherent quality.

5\. Never use statements like "X group never does it". It takes away whatever
miniscule credibility the article has. Some obvious examples of IITians doing
startups: Flipkart, Rabi Kisku entertainment (Rabi Kisku and Siddharth Nuni
are about to release their movie Software Hardware kya yaaroon) and several
several more. You just have to look.

6\. Startups are not for everyone. Hardworking and smart alone doesn't cut it
and it is not a bad thing that not all these guys are doing it. Doesn't mean
they are wasting their life away.

Disclaimer: I was one of those Vetti 5 pointers at IITM, who took a 2.75l job
in 2006 ago and I am running my own bootstrapped startup with my batchmate
since 2011. If my startup fails (at my last stand), I don't think I will do a
bootstrapped startup in India ever again and that has very little to do with
the size of my cojones.

~~~
Aarvay
I thank you for making me realize that this post sounds offensive. I didn't
mean it that way. I ll update the post with my apologies.

I would like to clear few things here.

[1] This is not a post against IITians or anybody for that matter. [2] I wrote
this post out of concern and in search of a solution that will change the
startup scene here in India. It sounds over-ambitious but I want to be a part
of such a revolution, however little I contribute. [3] This article concerns
only to related people. I hope I have conveyed that at least

"Of course, there are really pleasant opportunities available that one need
not look at entrepreneurship as the only possible work. But my only worry is
that people with real motivation also get lost in this place."

[4] I didn't mean it, when I told "IIT guys will never do it". I sincerely
apologize again.

------
known
Prior to 1947, entrepreneurship is exclusively reserved to
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bania_%28caste%29> community for 3000+ years in
India. Now due to globalization, lower caste community is also venturing into
entrepreneurship. http:/dicci.org

------
pradeep89
Well, I am not IITian , not even frequent commentor on HN ,I seriously think ,
it's the software culture that need to change . People need to change their
attitude play safe. We understand working on start up idea is like walking on
the edge of a cliff and you don't know when you will fall but if you have 'the
drive'/guts , no body can stop us from being successful. One factor that you
could think of ( may be not applicable to IITian ) the service industries are
killing most of the talent in india, most of us are happy with what they are
getting paid and they don't want to take the risk. And working on a startup in
India is far more difficult than doing the same in US, you take example of
funding , it's not as easy as US to raise funds for startup in India We can
list down lot of these factors, it's true that this situation would change in
few years, let's hope for the good

------
known
Entrepreneurs need _protection_ from Govt/Politicians against Big
Corporations. In a 3rd world country like India, Govt/Politicians cannot
afford to lose millions of taxes/party funds they get from Big Cos.

------
easternmonk
Unless you provide statistics as to what percentage of IIT students go fro
start ups wiz a wiz MIT/Stanford, this blog lacks credibility.

Number of people who want to take risk are always a small fraction of any
sample set.

------
ashray
The IITs are definitely overhyped however there is no doubt that there are
some real quality minds in there. That said, there isn't a great deal of
research required to understand why fresh grads in India don't do startups.
It's just common sense. Here are some of the top reasons that I can think of
right off the bat:

1\. It's too risky. The reason I went to IIT is so that I can get a stable job
at the end of it. Why would I throw that away now with a Startup ?

2\. I don't know how to do it. There is no startup eco system in India. There
are some changes happening in Bangalore recently but India is such a large
country that if you're in another region, you are pretty disconnected from
what goes on elsewhere.

3\. I have a job lined up that'll pay me $35,000/year. A lot of IITians have
jobs lined up for themselves (especially the good ones...). Why exactly would
they want to invest their time and effort in a Startup - the equivalent of
starting from scratch - if they can take the IIT badge that they have earned
and get a head start on everyone else while climbing the corporate ladder ?

4\. I want to pursue studying X/an MBA/something else.

5\. NO ONE in society will understand why I didn't take the $35k/year job and
decided to work for NOTHING for at-least 1 YEAR of my life. OMG! DEATH AND
SUFFERING!!! Indian society is tough. If you decide to 'do a startup' your
parents will hear no end of it from their relatives, neighbors and even
colleagues. Most Indian kids can't put their parents through that kind of
crap, unfortunately, that's how society works. Everyone will STFU once your
startup makes $1M/year but until then prepare yourself for constant nagging.
Basically, in India if you work for X multinational corporation then your
parents get bragging rights and everyone's eyes widen with wonder... Sad, but
true.

So in conclusion, I'd like to say that it's far more likely for people who are
NOT from the IITs to work on startups in India. The risk/reward ratio for
IITians is perceived to be MUCH higher because of all the options laid out in
front of them already. Choice is a bitch :P

~~~
kamaal
Your post smells like almost anybody who doesn't work in a start up is shit.

Its far more easier to say all this when you tons of financial support to fall
back on in case of failures. And there are a lot of rich kids I know who do
it. I have friends who happily didn't finish their graduation, worked at call
centers and threw random efforts at businesses and failed. Often is such
cases, some one else is footing the bill. And most of your failures are
sponsored by the person's dad or elder brother.

In most of such cases its not risk that they are taking. They just don't have
any more options left. They are not good at doing day jobs, because they have
had it easily their whole lives. Such guys just can't work under a boss. So
they feel business is what they need to do.

Now if you are struggling to pay your home rent, you have a sister to marry
off and your Dad's retirement is due next year. I don't see why such a person
should not take a job in a big company. You won't understand the plight of
this guy, unless you walk in his shoes.

You can call him coward, or under confident or just not capable to taking
risks. The fact is such a guy is fighting a daily battle to keep his affairs
running. Big risks, with big financial failures are not possible for his
already financially stressed life.

~~~
ashray
Huh? I never said anything like that, my post simply explains the
rationalizations of why an IITian might not choose to work on a startup. I
think you read into something but I can't figure out what it is.

All I wanted to say was that there are several good reasons that make perfect
sense in the context for an IITian to not join a startup.

EDIT: Great, so you misread and then downvote ? I don't think that's how it's
supposed to work =/

------
known
Why startups condense in America? <http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html>

