

Re: You can go to the bathroom whenever you want at Microsoft - FraaJad
http://microturfing.com/

======
sounddust
I think it's unfortunate that a moderator decided to unkill this. It's not
just inappropriate for HN due to content, but also because it's a mean-
spirited hate piece with bits of misogyny and homophobia thrown in. It's fine
if someone wants to rebut the article (which seemed like a pretty
straightforward interview to me), but the rebuttal that gets promoted to HN
should have been more civil.

~~~
neilk
It wasn't a straightforward interview. It was a subtle form of astroturfing.

PR is all about context. They try to dissociate the site from Microsoft
(visually) to imply these are disinterested opinions. And in particular, that
there's this cute young emo woman who wanders the halls of Microsoft entranced
with the dreamy, rebellious hackers. The subtext, if you're a heterosexual
male programmer, is that working for MS gets you the kinds of attention you've
always wanted. And that real rebels ought to be working for Microsoft.

All absurd, which is why they had to be subtle about it. If the sexual
innuendo is said out loud -- _as in a parody_ \-- you then realize what's
happened. It's debatable whether the tone is HN-appropriate, but I thought it
made legitimate points, despite or perhaps _because_ of the crudeness.

~~~
webwright
It pains me that this story exists and that your misogynist comment got so
many upvotes.

Subtle form of astroturfing? It took about 10 seconds and some reading
comprehension for me to understand that the site (and the interview) was
sponsored by MS. And your subtext? I totally disagree. Just because it's a
female writer (with a picture! Oh my!), it implies that she's some sort of
developer concubine? WTF? If it was an attractive guy, would you start tossing
out gay jokes? If it was an older woman, would you call her a cougar? Or are
you suggesting that they hired her because she was cute over more-qualified
male candidates?

There are 120 zillion stories on what it's like to work at Google, and
presumably many of these are launched and shaped by Google PR folks.

You could take the same tone towards them: "The subtle implication is that
Google people are buried in gourmet food, don't have managers, cash our as
zillionaires in a year or two, go kayaking on their lunch hour all the time,
and truly spend 20% of their work time on whatever they feel like."

Sure there's a goal here-- to show that MS is cooler than most people think it
is. Whether that's true or not is subjective (but I know a lot of pretty cool
folks who actually LOVE(d) working at Microsoft).

~~~
endtime
I'm working at Microsoft this summer, and it really is a fun place to work,
especially compared to Goldman Sachs and AMD (where I've spent previous
summers). People work whatever hours they feel like, they have fun (my team
has "Scotch Friday" every few weeks, for example), and our boss is extremely
bright (and amusing).

I haven't worked for Google, so maybe that's even better, I don't know - but
from what I've seen so far, there's nothing not to like about working for
Microsoft.

For what it's worth, just about everyone I've met will openly admit that the
company culture was very different 15 years ago, and earned it some (deserved)
negative reputation...but that's really not the company I've seen this summer.
Anecdotally: I'm working on the Office web apps, and we fully support Firefox
and Safari as well as IE.

~~~
Andys
> the company culture was very different 15 years ago, and earned it some
> (deserved) negative reputation

Market-wise, I perceived Microsoft as kicking ass during the mid 90's with
products that were crushing the competition, whereas nowadays I see them as
floundering ineffectively.

If the workers weren't happy then, but are happy now, how does that fit with
my perceptions?

~~~
endtime
I never said the workers weren't happy then - I said the company was a
different place. People externally were less happy about Microsoft, because it
was, as you note, more aggressive.

------
blasdel
"P.S. I don’t think she’s a whore because she’s a woman, I think she’s a whore
because she’s in marketing. It’s important to understand the distinction."
<http://zedshaw.com/blog/2009-07-18.html>

~~~
mustpax
Just as saying “no offense“ does not immediately render a comment inoffensive;
stating that his comments should not be construed as misogyny, does not negate
the fact his comments really are misogynistic.

I don‘t want to get all politically-correct here, but are we really going to
pretend that the word “whore” has no gender related connotations? When you use
a word, you have to take all the luggage that comes with it, that is just the
way language works.

~~~
pfedor
I am not a native speaker so please forgive me for a silly question. Can the
word "whore" not be used in English when referring to a male prostitute? What
word would you suggest instead which would convey the same meaning without the
misogynistic connotations? Thanks.

~~~
Scriptor
I think "whore" has evolved somewhat to basically mean anyone who will do
whatever it takes to get something. There is the term "man whore" but that's
more used for males who are sexually promiscuous.

God I sound way too old writing that.

------
Elepsis
I think this is officially the sign of the reddit-ization of Hacker News.
Pathetic.

~~~
wmeredith
Bitching will not save you. Go to the new page and vote up stuff _you_ like.

~~~
jrockway
Voting is no match for the tyranny of the majority. (Look at how well it
worked for California; gay marriage is illegal, tax increases are illegal, and
the state is bankrupt. Sometimes, you need to elect a trusted representative
that can balance all the issues at once.)

~~~
kingkongrevenge
California is bankrupt because of out of control government spending and
bureaucracy costs. The "majority" is at fault to the extent they have tended
to vote themselves a free lunch. But the problem is primarily parasitic
special interests in and around the government, so your parallel doesn't
really work.

~~~
SwellJoe
_But the problem is primarily parasitic special interests in and around the
government, so your parallel doesn't really work._

Whenever I see the words "special interests", I immediately want to know
_which_ special interests _in particular_ you're complaining about. The words
(rightly) have a bad connotation, but I don't often see a lot of agreement
about which specific interests are causing trouble.

~~~
kingkongrevenge
Government employee unions is #1 on the list. California government employees
make about twice what equivalent private sector workers do and retire 20 years
earlier.

~~~
SwellJoe
Good answer.

------
aaronbrethorst
From the parody: "I'm probably some failed art student who couldn't get a job
on Cap-Hill..."

Right, because it takes such awesome credentials to land a job at the bars and
restaurants in Seattle...

A lot of Microsofties are insanely passionate about the company. I used to be
one, and shared their fervor for quite a while. When they say that they want
to "change the world," they really mean it for better or worse.

Now excuse me while I go launder my Decemberists t-shirt in preparation for
the Death Cab concert tonight. ;-)

(capitol hill: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill,_Seattle>)

------
asdlfj2sd33
WTF was that? I tried reading twice and I still don't understand what it's
about. The comments here are quite inflamed but they don't explain anything.
Anyone care to enlighten me?

\--EDIT--

Never mind, I red what this is a response to. It's sad, the original was such
a parody of what it was trying to be, mocking it is like kicking someone who
is already down.

And mod me down but why this _any of this_ on HN?

~~~
Tichy
Could you explain, because I am not understanding any of it (except that Zed
Shaw seems to be involved somehow - did he hack a Wordpress Blog???). Not that
I read much of the actual site - I did not understand why I should, as it
seemed unappealing.

~~~
asdlfj2sd33
There exists an astroturf MS campaign to convince people that the cool kids
now work at MS. The cool kids being self thought and with spiky orange hair.

Like almost all MS advertising it is terribly cheesy. The main point seems to
be that at MS you DON'T have to ask for permission to go the bathroom.

While there are places that do track you that closely, fortunately they are
few and MS is not in competition with them. A gas station is mentioned, but MS
is not competing to hire gas station attendees. In short it's a TERRIBLE
attempt to be cool.

Even though this MS campaign is quite successful at being a mockery, Zed felt
the need to also mock it. Much like kicking a man who's already down, it's not
clear this is as funny or smart as Zed seems to think it is.

Never the less Zed created an intentional parody of something which was
already an unintentional parody.

He also threw the word "whore" in for good measure, but not because one of the
people involved is a girl, but because she's in marketing, that's according to
Zed.

~~~
Tichy
Thanks for the information. I have come to the conclusion that Zed thinks too
complicated for me to follow his lines of thought.

------
joe_the_user
I like the intent but it needs more meat and a little bit more of a wind-up -
as a joke, it's all punchline.

~~~
neilk
Yeah, but it's here and part of the conversation, mere hours after the
original -- that counts for something. True, it's not sparkling literary
parody, but more like a timely snappy comeback. Sites like Twitter and HN make
this sort of riposte possible, so now it's one option for making a point.

~~~
reduxredacted
That's a good point. Quick and thorough response that if not for reading the
content looked incredibly like the original. Not difficult to do
"technically", but then, I didn't do it so who am I to talk?

That said, a properly placed profanity can add a punch and shock the reader
... that effect is lost when profanity is in virtually every sentence ... and
shit.

------
endtime
I know meta-discussion isn't entirely welcome on HN, but nevertheless, I feel
a need to express my disappointment that this article was (apparently)
undeaded. Whichever mod is responsible, please try to understand why so many
of us flagged this article in the first place and don't undead lowbrow
flamebait in the future. HN is supposed to be above this sort of article.

------
ErrantX
What happened to the don't post flame topic rules? Surely Zed's blog post
would have been a better entry path at the very least.

------
lionhearted
There's a lot of people and companies in the world I don't care for, for
whatever reason. But I try to never put anyone down unless it's necessary to
achieve something more important. So I'd put down Soviet Communism because I'd
like to see a freer, happier Russia, but I'm not going to waste my life
putting down XYZ Ice Cream Parlor / Software Company / Whatever for doing
something I dislike.

It's fashionable and easy to score a few points putting down McDonalds or
Microsoft or whatever, and I used to when I was younger. I mean, it's so easy
to put down McDonalds, and McD's really is legitimately garbage. But what's to
gain from it? It just takes time away from me doing some science, doing some
business, connecting with people I do like, reading, writing, painting,
lifting weights, playing golf, going to a museum, having sex, swimming,
sitting in a park, having a coffee, whatever. I don't need or want the short,
easy points and bond that come with assessing my disgust/superiority/whatever
over other people and organizations. Time is too precious to spend doing that.

------
RK
A response to criticisms of astroturfing by the Microspotting writer:

[http://www.codexon.com/posts/the-sad-state-of-microsoft-
adve...](http://www.codexon.com/posts/the-sad-state-of-microsoft-
advertisement/comment-page-1#comment-246)

------
I_got_fifty
I love this! This is great! But I wonder from which marketing department this
one come from.

~~~
sailormoon
Zed Shaw's marketing department of course!

Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm a fan. I'm a fan of anyone who
knows what they're fucking talking about, actually.

That MS site is embarrassing to even _look_ at.

~~~
dan_the_welder
<quote>That MS site is embarrassing to even look at.</quote>

I am just appalled that they believe that people who are ostensibly targeted
by this campaign are that unsophisticated.

Maybe they are. Go Zed, your humor makes me happy.

~~~
bokchoi
this is humor?

~~~
dan_the_welder
Did you create a profile to turf the turfing of the turfing, Mr.Bokchoi?

------
Davertron
Ha!

