
Launching the Kindle Fire was a mistake - andrewmunn
https://plus.google.com/100838276097451809262/posts/EvstFnKynKf
======
chuinard
I read the first few sentences of this and stopped when he said it was
downright terrible. Having just received one for Christmas myself, I really
have no idea where all the Fire hate is coming from. Sure, it's not an iPad,
but it is absolutely a gap between my phone and my MacBook that I am now happy
to have filled. Laying in bed watching Arrested Development, playing Angry
Birds on a slightly larger screen, or browsing the web all work just fine. It
also was neat that all the apps I got on the Amazon Appstore already sync'd
directly to the device.

I'm also really impressed with how Amazon took the physical buttons (menu,
back, and home) off the actual device and made them part of the UI by tapping
a little arrow at the bottom of the screen.

Yes, the power button is misplaced, but overall I am very satisfied with this
$199 tablet that I am finding myself using pretty often so far.

~~~
phaus
I've played around with most companies' flagship tablets, to include the iPad.
With the exception of my windows 7 tablet, the kindle fire was the first
tablet that I actually purchased. Overall I love it, but there are a couple of
things that really hurt the experience.

The biggest issue for me would be that the kindle fire often doesn't respond
to input very well. I often find myself having to press a button 2-5 times in
order for it to register. I know I am hitting the button because the button
animation seems to be working correctly. I hope that they finally manage to
fix this issue with another update. This alone brings the device from 4.5
stars down to 3.5 in my opinion.

The only other issue I have is that magazine/comic books are being sold for
the kindle fire as if they are actually readable. This is more of a complaint
against magazine and comic book publishers who should have started optimizing
their content for digital display years ago. I shouldn't have to manually zoom
in every time I turn a page and then pan around. The print magazine industry
is rapidly becoming unprofitable, so why aren't these companies busting their
asses to create e-reader friendly versions of their products?

------
tghw
Many of his main points are vacuous at best. "Adding insult to injury, it’s an
extremely simple and ugly unlock-gesture, just the sweep of a mono-color bar
from right to left." Since when is a function being simple a problem? And he's
comparing it to a Windows phone, where the entire interface is based on "mono-
color" tiles.

The Fire is a $200 tablet, and aside from a misplaced On/Off button (not sure
how that got passed QA), the hardware you get for $200 is incredible. The
software could use some work, there's no doubt about that. But here's the
thing:

 _They can improve the software._

I don't love my Fire, but you can hardly say it is "downright terrible",
especially when you consider the price tag.

~~~
kristofferR
My mother or any other normal non-geeky people in my family doesn't care
whether the problem lies in software or hardware. They care about the
experience.

The Kindle Fire experience is terrible right now. That terrible experience is
what they'll remember and associate the brand with.

~~~
tghw
"Terrible" is hyperbole at best. And while they may not care, my point is,
Amazon can (and, I hope, will) improve it.

All of these complaints about a $200 tablet remind me of Louis CK's bit on
airplanes and cellphones, "Everything's amazing, and nobody's happy."

~~~
angstrom
You have a right to bitch if you're told you'll be flying a DC-10 and they
seat you in a single engine Cessna.

~~~
dfxm12
Where did you get the idea that the the Fire is a top of the line type device?

The Cessna costs a fraction of the price of the DC-10. The Fire is a fraction
of the cost of an iPad...

Even if you have no idea how to compare tech specs, or if you are brain-dead
to marketing tactics, anyone should be able to look at the price tag and think
to themselves, _Well, the Fire costs a lot less than the competition. It's
probably not going to have all the bells and whistles, but it is going to get
the job done._

~~~
angstrom
Honestly, I didn't even include the iPad in the analogy. I would say the iPad
is the 767.

The Nook Tablet is borderline DC-10. Of course, I'm looking at these devices
with a rooting perspective as well. The screen quality, RAM, and extra storage
space giving the Nook the edge. I have no desire to listen to music on a
tablet, so I really only care about web browsing and video. The e-ink devices
are still superior for regular text IMO. Unfortunately, since the publishers
adopted the agency pricing model, these devices won't decrease in cost as
quickly as they would have under regular retail pricing that would've allowed
the razor blade model to defer the costs.

------
rokhayakebe
I bought one. I love it. I CANNOT wait for a 8, 9 or 10 inch one because I
will be the first one to get it (assuming it's still cheaper than the Ipad).

I have no idea what people are talking about when they say they are
disappointed. Seriously how much hardware + software do you want for $199.

Last time I read a book and finished it was a few years ago. I just finished a
500 page book on the fire, and it has certainly helped a lot with note taking,
going back to highlights etc...

Browsing the internet is just fine, although the video audio seems to be off
sync for Youtube videos. Movies through Prime were just ok.

Sometimes it hangs, but it's not all that bad. You just turn it off, then on
(really, you just press the button back to back. like 1.5 seconds).

I think most people were expecting a smaller Ipad. Well, come on.

~~~
matwood
How is it with reading PDFs? I read a lot of books on my iPhone without any
problem, but PDFs just don't scale right. I'm starting think about getting
some sort of tablet and good PDF handling is high on my requirements.

~~~
tks
With the caveat that I don't have a lot of experience with the iPad's pdf
support I'd say the Fire's support is solid. I recently read an entire e-book
in pdf format on it. The main limitation is that there isn't a lot of screen
real estate so if you want to read it on a full page scale you need to
tolerate a very small font (this was not a problem for me). A cool upside is
that when you get a Fire, Amazon creates an email address that you can send
emails with attached pdfs and documents which will then automatically be
downloaded onto your Kindle.

Overall nothing mind blowing but if you like e-readers I think you'll be
satisfied with the pdf support.

------
extension
Funny that anybody can think there is a first mover advantage in this market
when tablets have been shipping and failing for about 30 years now, the idea
itself is over 50 years old, and some directly related patents are over 100
years old!

The secret to Apple's success is obviously their zen-like patience and
restraint.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tablet_computers>

~~~
freehunter
Tablets could hardly be considered consumer appliances before the iPad.
They're not even in the same league, and this is coming from someone who owns
zero Apple hardware.

~~~
extension
I think tablets before the iPad would have taken whatever they could get, but
they couldn't make it in any market. Apple had to wait for many planets to
align before they could make their move:

\- It wasn't until the web that any new consumer computing platform was viable
whatsoever.

\- Even then, the new platform had to start as a phone, so people had an
excuse to buy it (well, I need a phone anyway...) and so the carriers could
subsidize it.

\- All the technology needed to be there, and cheap: a responsive multitouch
sensor, a GPU for smooth interface animation, a backlit color screen, gigs of
solid state storage, hardware video codecs, batteries that last for days,
durable glass/metal enclosure, and probably all sorts of little things that we
don't even notice.

My point is that the iPad's success wasn't about being first. It was
essentially about being _last_.

------
yequalsx
I almost hate the Fire. I have a Kindle Touch and I thought the interface
between the two devices would at least be consistent.

In the Fire to bring up the menu when reading a book you tap the bottom of the
screen. In the Touch you tap the top of the screen. In the Touch you can look
up the definition of a word the same way you do on the Fire. However, on the
Touch when the definition of a word comes up you can look up the definition of
a word used in the definition of the word you just looked up the same way the
original word's definition was obtained. You can't do that in the Fire.

Why don't both devices automatically sync? When I first turn on a device I
sync. Sometimes when I open a book I have to sync again to get to the furthest
read page. Why do I have to sync after syncing?

Why does the browser icon show up on the main page of the Fire every time I
use the browser? I keep removing the icon from the main page. Shouldn't I only
have to do this once?

Turning pages is a great pain in the Fire and the Touch. You tap the screen
and a page turns. This is horrible because sometimes while holding the device
I accidentally tap the screen without meaning to turn a page. The iPad has the
swipe interface for turning a page. Apple got this spot on. Amazon should copy
Apple in this regard.

The web browser on the Fire is horrible. It's slow and I can't get web base
email to work properly on it. This is pathetic.

I could go on but the point is made. The Fire is an unpolished device. It's
almost entirely pathetic. This is all just my opinion and others will have a
different opinion but I would highly recommend getting an iPad instead of a
Fire. Don't be lured by the low price of the Fire.

------
jsankey
_The return rate will be high and Amazon will suffer for it._

The Fire currently has over 8000 reviews on Amazon with an average rating of
3.9. Over 5500 of those reviews give the device 4 or 5 stars. Something tells
me the average Fire customer does not have such high expectations.

~~~
phaus
While they must be included for accuracy, I found that well over half of the
1-star reviews were written by people who knew that they wouldn't like the
Kindle Fire, yet ordered one anyways. There were an awful lot of people who
complained that it wasn't as nice as the iPad 2 that they explicitly stated
they also own. What logical person buys a low-end tablet when they already
have what is arguably the best tablet ever made?

~~~
vijayr
sometimes reviews at amazon are annoying. I was reading reviews for a _men's_
gps watch. somebody gave it 4 stars and mentioned that (s)he would've given 5
stars, if "the product had women's model too". It doesn't make any sense. it
is clearly mentioned that the model is for men - why write the review at all?
people have weird expectations

~~~
jxi
What's more infuriating is when people give 1 star reviews to products they've
never purchased for bogus reasons like "the price is too high" or "this is not
out in my country".

~~~
vijayr
ha, that is funny. I can't afford a ferrari, so it must be a bad car, super
logic !!

I've also noticed this - complaining about a product "not being waterproof"
when the product makes no mention of being water proof, drivers not available
for Mac when the product clearly mentions windows only etc.

Amazon should allow reviews _only_ from people who _actually_ bought the
product, that will reduce at least a bit of stupid reviews.

------
jrockway
Companies need to stop copying Apple, because if they don't, every review will
be tainted by why Apple did X better than they did. Apple might not have
actually done X better, but they did it first, and people like what they
already know. The comment about the unlock gesture is especially relevant;
there is no need to stipe something across the screen to unlock a tablet. If
people copy that, though, the reviews will inevitably compare it to Apple's
implementation, and will like Apple's better. (Be it less lag, better color
scheme, better font for "Slide to unlock", etc.) If they do something
completely different, like a hardware switch, then everyone will be happy
because it's the first time they've ever seen anything like that and the idea
will be allowed to stand on its own merits.

The Fire is flawed from the start because it uses out of date software. If you
are going to advertise something as Android, then people expect it to be good
at Android. Look at Archos' Android tablets; dead because they kept it on 1.6
forever. (I will certainly never buy an Archos product again.) The solution is
to not advertise it as having Android, even if you use Android behind the
scenes. There are many Linux devices that don't claim to be Linux, and as a
result, nobody ever cares that GHC 7.4 doesn't run on it; it's just a box that
runs software that does stuff rather than being "a Linux box". (Hell, the
original Kindle is a good example of this. Do you want an xterm on your
Kindle? Nope! So you don't care that it doesn't have X11.)

Anyway, I guess I'm saying that the key to hardware design is expectation
management. Be different so that you aren't compared to Apple. Underpromise so
that you aren't compared to something you aren't.

~~~
dr1z
If you look at Amazon's own page for Kindle Fire, it does not list Android OS
as a feature (with the exception of the Appstore but that predates Fire).

~~~
jrockway
Fair enough. But they obviously used Android, so people (including me) expect
the tablet to compete with other Android tablets. That's the reason why I
don't have one, even if I would only use the Amazon features. (I do own a
Kindle, though, because it doesn't promise anything other than "buy books from
Amazon.com and read them on an e-ink screen", and that's exactly what I want.)

------
wallflower
I have a Kindle Fire. I actually like the fact that it is an imperfect product
- lags in switching tabs, occasional lags so long in loading websites that you
wonder if your wifi has gone dialup, the dang "Carousel". I do like the
reading experience and pocket-ability - it fits into a winter jacket easily -
though you need to weigh down your opposite pocket to avoid lopsided-ness.

The Kindle Fire is the first credible competitor to the iPad. Android tablets
running Honeycomb - it hurts my head - the UI - it is like a Klingon control
panel. Definitely not intuitive. The Kindle Fire - it is a compromise - a
custom, dumbed-down ("The Carousel") UI on the iceberg of Android 2.x.

For me, it is a tangible reminder that products aren't all perfect like the
iPad. There is no such thing as immaculate conception - the Kindle Fire will
get better over time. Comparing it to the iPad is like comparing NYC to... any
other city except London[1]. It's a different metro, not as sophisticated -
it's for those who just want a tablet device that is relatively affordable.

The iPad has set the bar - it is the _first computer_ for many under the age
of six. The Kindle Fire is no such thing - it is, as a review said best, a
Kindle with benefits.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city>

~~~
alexholehouse
For the record, in terms of metros for ease of use I'd have to say Paris > NYC
> London (having lived in all three cities).

------
miles_matthias
I couldn't agree with this more. My grandma recently bought one and I spend
all of Christmas getting it set up for her and teaching her. She's gotten
really frustrated and would probably return it if it hadn't been free from her
company.

This part especially is what I agree with:

"Yet, the drive to quickly release a product in a hot field is almost
irresistible. Amazon believes growing marketshare is more important than the
reputation of their tablet. This is wrong. I believe consumer tolerance for
poor products is at an all time low, thanks to ten years of amazing Apple
products. Unfortunately, the idea that first movers win is widely believed
across the tech industry."

Version 1.0 should be magical.

I do need to correct the author on one point though - I did find a native
email client on it.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"I do need to correct the author on one point though - I did find a native
> email client on it."_

Which is nigh unusable. I set up my email account on it and went to bed with
it at 70% charge. I woke up with the Kindle Fire at 20%. It drained 50% in
about 8-9 hours doing nothing more than email.

Yes, idle email checking uses power, but I have never seen it _that_ bad on
_any_ device. The battery is no slouch either based on normal reading/video
drain rates.

My Fire's battery has been dry for 4 weeks and counting now. I have no felt
even the slightest urge to recharge it and use it. Considering this is a low-
margin device designed to hook people onto Amazon's profitable content
pipeline, this is an utter and abject failure. Others I know who got the Fire
at launch have all either returned it, or their Fires have a fate similar to
mine - forgotten in a drawer.

~~~
miles_matthias
Yea I didn't say it was good, but it's there. I had a similarly terrible
experience with their mail client.

------
garrickvanburen
I'm starting to think there must be 2 products on the market right now called
the 'Amazon Kindle Fire' - this very enjoyable one I picked up and this other
one that all these blog posts are complaining about.

~~~
IznastY
Having just received one for Christmas I too find the Kindle Fire quite
enjoyable. Yes it could use some polishing, could possibly be the fact that
it's running an older version of Android.

------
lnanek
It's cheap and pretty much does the job from what I hear. Obviously the
author's and his family's experience was a bit worse than most people report.
But honestely, returning something is a huge pain in the ass. It requires work
and backing out of a decision. Very few people ever bother returning things.
Just like some percentage of people never mail in rebates.

With apps, you can offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee, it will increase
conversion, and few people will ever take you up on it. It sucks that it means
a business doesn't have to please everyone completely, but the business is in
it for the money anyway, not pleasing everyone. I think, from a business
perspective, it was right to launch and capture the holiday sales. Subsequent
versions will get better. I have a first generation Kindle and later versions
blow it away. My version has freaking black text on a dark gray background,
worse than cheap newspaper.

------
ballstothewalls
I believe that their has been an update to the Fire that seems to have
alleviated most of this guys problems.

The kindle that I received for Christmas has been a joy to use :)

------
balloot
My problem with this post is the assumption that the Kindle Fire would have
blown away the iPad with a few more months' development time.

Lots have companies have tried to beat the iPhone/iPad. Nobody has even come
close. This guy's whole worldview centers around the fact that since he worked
at Amazon, all their engineers are clearly the best. And if that engineering
team releases a bad product it's clearly a reflection on someone other than
the engineering team.

What is far more likely is that Amazon's engineers weren't going to approach
the iPad no matter how hard they tried or how long they worked. It's nothing
to be ashamed of - they have lots of great company in this regard.

------
btipling
Some people think "I didn't like it" means nobody should like it. I like my
kindle fire, although I think I'd prefer a Ice Cream tablet next year. I like
widgets and power and awesomeness. But just because I think I might like
something else better doesn't mean I'm going to jump on a soap box.

------
acknickulous
I personally love the Kindle Fire. I'm an iPad user, but I bought a Fire to
check it out. It's surprisingly powerful--and the 7 inch form factor is great
for games.

But yeah--the interface is fiddly. I think the only reason why I get so much
use out of my Fire is because I'm used to dealing with buggy products. I'd
never give one to my parents. Maybe 2.0.

Oh--and the browser is HORRIBLE. Despite Amazon's crowing about their new tech
--it seems like Skyfire repackaged. And super hard to use.

------
martincmartin
_Consumers are snapping the Fire up because it’s $200, but they expect a_
tablet _. Not a black brick that plays movies._

Some do. But a lot expect an e-reader that also plays movies. That's how
Amazon is marketing it: just one of their many kindle devices. My mother-in-
law has a Kindle and reads a lot of books, and I keep trying to tell her that
it's more similar to an iPad than her Kindle, but I don't think it sinks in
because, well, it's a Kindle.

~~~
easp
I'm curious as to how this positioning will play out. On the one hand, its a
better Kindle because it can play movies, etc, but its also the most
expensive, heaviest Kindle with the shortest battery life and a worse screen
for reading.

------
WalterBright
I have a Fire and like it a lot. I use it every day for reading books in low
light conditions. I'd buy it again tomorrow.

------
rheide
Would be nice if HN could resolve the (google.com) bit in the list to a
Google+ user account.

------
foobarbazetc
"I tell her it’s less than half the price of an iPad, but the software will be
almost as polished because it’s made by Amazon."

LOL. Because Amazon are known for quality consumer software, right?

~~~
notatoad
Well, all the kindles before the fire were pretty damn polished.

~~~
ceejayoz
The first one wasn't. Odd form factor, thick, no PDF support. A great start,
but "polished" it wasn't.

~~~
notatoad
The form factor was a little funky, yes. It was thinner than anything else at
the time. And PDF support was an omission that increased the polish, not
detracted from it. Reading PDF on a e-ink screen is a horrible experience,
adding it was a compromise.

------
EmagineEngine
Okay, you've convinced me. It was the lack of privacy that gave me pause. And
the well executed Nook.

------
rayiner
One of the arguments I'm seeing here is that people shouldn't have such high
expectations because it's a $200 device. You don't really want the reputation
of releasing a device that's cheap because it's crappy, rather than cheap
because it's limited.

From a customer's point of view, for $200 they expect a smaller screen, less
storage, less features, less ability to run the latest games. They do not
expect less fit and finish. See the car industry for an example. You expect
less bells and whistles from a Toyota Corolla than you do from a Lexus, less
power and less luxurious materials, etc, but you don't expect that the dash
will have large gaps in it, the steering will be unreliable, etc.

------
SteveJS
This is not a mistake. For me, $200 and low expectations make this a great
value. Amazon's not building an iPad competitor, and failing to meet that
expectation isn't an excuse not to build the Kindle Fire.

------
skeeterbug
My wife loves her kindle. She has purchased a few books, uses it for web
browsing and a few games.

------
DiabloD3
The only thing that killed the Fire for me (and sadly I now own one, got it as
a gift), is they reneged on their 1 year of Amazon Prime free deal. Now, you
only get a month.

Screw that, the tablet is next to useless without Prime unless you like buying
movies/tv shows that are DRMed up.

Also, why the hell does it have stereo speakers that are only on the left side
of the device in landscape orientation? What use is stereo in portrait?

And on top of that, mine was shipped from Amazon with a defective LCD and now
I have to deal with that.

Honestly, I am not impressed.

~~~
bethling
When did Amazon ever claim to offer one year? The initial announcement of it
was one month of free prime
(<http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/09/amazon/>).

If your LCD is defective, contact Amazon and they will take care of it -
that's what the warranty is for :)

~~~
DiabloD3
Yes, I have contacted Amazon. However, the device does not look like it was
damaged in shipping, it looks like it is a manufacturing error.

Amazon is not gaining any points from this, at any rate.

------
brudgers
I read the criticisms of the Fire's OS and think, "why wouldn't the next
version run Windows 8?" It is not as if Amazon has much shared interest with
Google or a bunch of reasons to love Android and certainly Android doesn't
give their tablets a marketing advantage.

~~~
fpgeek
Why wouldn't the next version of the Fire run Windows 8? Here's three reasons:

1\. Microsoft's not likely to let Amazon put Amazon put Windows 8 on the next
Fire for free.

2\. Microsoft will be running the app store for Windows 8 tablets, not Amazon
(BTW, do we even know what the in-app purchase rules will be for Windows 8? If
they're at all Apple-like, that's a dealbreaker by itself).

3\. Windows 8 is likely to have more demanding/expensive hardware requirements
than Android

------
iradik
I wonder if Amazon will do a trade-in program when the Kindle Fire 2 comes out
for unhappy Fire owners. It's just the kind of crazy customer experience turn-
around I could see Amazon doing.

------
zht
not this guy again. this is the former Google intern who completely
mischaracterized Android's UI rendering

~~~
natrius
This sort of comment is harmful to healthy discourse. It is okay to be wrong
sometimes, and his previous potential wrongness has little bearing on this
discussion.

------
Evgeny
I was contemplating on buying the Kindle Fire, but now I just have to buy it
... The voices "pro" and "contra" have split into almost precise 50/50 - now I
just need to have the device so I can make a decision myself. I don't have any
book reader yet at all - I have to start somewhere.

~~~
seattlejet
If you mainly want an e-reader, I recommend one of the other Kindles that has
an E Ink display, which is wonderful. The Fire doesn't have an E Ink display.

~~~
RandallBrown
e-ink is wonderful, until you turn the page or you turn off the lamp that's
next to you.

Everyone tells me you get used to the e-ink flash, and I hear it's gotten much
better, but it still kinda stinks. Most of my reading is done in bed or on my
couch, neither of which has great reading light. The LCD is perfect for this.

Maybe it's the years I've spent in front of a computer, but staring at a
screen in the dark doesn't bother me at all. Maybe I'll regret it someday.

------
miles_matthias
The newsyc iPhone app does this. It's nice.

------
nazgulnarsil
tl;dr

his mom didn't like the kindle fire and over the holidays complained to him
about it.

