
Do startups have a drinking problem? - steven
https://backchannel.com/do-startups-have-a-drinking-problem-920139d132a7#47af.5tfoynx3p
======
mikeash
My own experience (and I won't claim this is necessarily representative) is
that drinking is a big part of it, but nobody will care at all if you refrain.
Asking for water or soda instead of alcohol will barely get a second glance.

I think the title of this article would be better written as "Do startups have
an asshole problem?" It just so happened that the asshole problem manifested
in terms of alcohol because that's where the author was set up to come into
conflict with the assholes.

You could easily have the same sort of experience as a vegetarian in a company
that revolved around barbecues and steak. That wouldn't mean startups have a
"meat problem," but that they have an asshole problem that manifests in terms
of meat because that's where you're in conflict. Other possibilities include
smartphone ownership, hobbies, and political affiliation.

Alcohol is certainly an interesting case because it's one of the few drugs
that's legal, socially acceptable, and extremely commonly used. The only other
one I can think of is caffeine, and even there we tend to go out of our way to
make non-caffeinated equivalents available. But it seems to me that hassling
people because they don't drink is just a symptom of a larger problem, which
is that there are assholes in power, and one of the things assholes do is
hassle people who are different.

~~~
lj3
> I think the title of this article would be better written as "Do startups
> have an asshole problem?" It just so happened that the asshole problem
> manifested in terms of alcohol because that's where the author was set up to
> come into conflict with the assholes.

I think startups may have an asshole problem as well, but that's not the
context I got from the article. Startups have a much larger problem and that
is the insistence that your job is a lifestyle, a culture. It's not enough to
show up and do your job well and get along with everybody. You have to fit in
as well. If you don't, it affects your future career prospects. Drinking is
the norm. It's expected, along with wearing certain clothes, using certain
tech stacks and having certain political opinions. There are a multitude of
ways not to fit in. Alcohol is just one of them.

~~~
awinder
Totally agree, but I'd take it in a different direction too, which is that
startups have an expertise problem by definition. Most of the stuff in this
article that just seemed beyond the pale WAS beyond the pale. But most of that
stuff:

1\. Came from people who would have definitely not been in C-suite positions
at any established company 2\. Would have been completely moderated by someone
in HR at a traditional company, if not lead to termination / sanction

But, because it's a startup, you're getting people who have to do jobs they
were never trained to do, or were never a good fit for. Your brainiac CEO may
be lacking the soft-skills to actually be responsible for other people, and
yet, he's the most qualified to really own the product vision. There's a
reason these positions aren't mixed in traditional companies, and there's a
reason why your CEO isn't the CEO at a stable company pulling in $$MM in
revenue.

------
ianleeclark
It's actually really weird being a young adult (23) who doesn't and has never
drank. People will always look at you as if you're from another planet and
you'll always be pestered for some justification. I remember taking an
etiquette dinner/short class type thing during my college years and being
reprimanded for responding, "No, thanks, but I don't drink," when offered a
glass of wine. He said that I should always say, "No, thanks, but I won't be
drinking tonight," otherwise I'd be making the others at the table feel bad
about drinking alcohol.

I'll never understand that, but that seems to resonate through society: don't
rock the boat and make people aware of a moral decision to drink or to eat
meat or to X. Just go with the flow and let everyone take their soma.

This response came out unexpectedly negative.

~~~
some-guy
I loathe telling people I'm a vegetarian for this reason. People think that my
decision to not eat meat is an attack on _them_ and not a choice I've made for
myself.

Edit: a word

~~~
enraged_camel
To be fair, a ton of vegetarians are smug, moralizing douchebags who do attack
others on their decision to eat meat. There's a humorous saying: "How do tell
if someone is vegetarian/vegan? Don't worry: they will let you know."

There was a girl in my dorm during freshman year of college who would
_literally_ start sobbing if she saw anyone eat meat.

~~~
delecti
The vast majority of people who don't eat meat honestly don't care about
anyone else's dietary choices. The reason it comes up is because most people
assume everyone eats meat. If I was never offered meat, I'd never have to tell
anyone that I'm not going to eat it.

There are always going to be outliers like that girl, but compare the relative
frequency of seeing people like that vs the absurd number of bacon products
(jelly, soap, toothpaste).

~~~
enraged_camel
The girl I mentioned was an outlier, but hardly the only vegetarian/vegan I've
known who always broached the subject of "meat ethics" at every opportunity.

People like that might make up a small portion of the vegetarian/vegan
population, but they are a very vocal minority, which skews perspectives.

------
grishas
IMO, The tech industry has a huge alcohol problem in general. It's not
uncommon for even largeish companies to have beer kegs and frequent happy
hours.

Just recently we had a team event that revolved around alcohol, a mixology
class. Although attendance wasn't mandatory, it wasn't exactly optional
either. So there was a lot of awkwardness considering a number of people on
our team were non-drinking muslims, 1 person was pregnant, and several others
just don't drink. This creates an exclusionary sort of culture, and as one of
my coworkers said it "I don't really want to be forced to go to the bar with
my middle aged male colleagues". If you think about it, it does seem a bit
creepy.

Other industries have moved on from this sort of model. Sure, there still can
be alcohol at events and the occasional BBQ with beer or happy hour, but they
have strict policies about returning to work after consuming alcohol, and
alcohol is not the main focus of the event.

I take full advantage of the beer keg at our office, but if it went away I
certainly wouldn't be upset. I'd just do what I used to do, and go to the bar
after work with coworkers who want to go.

~~~
awinder
What does "it wasn't exactly optional either" mean? For whatever it's worth,
Mixology course sounds terrible even as someone who partakes in alcohol.

"Other industries have moved on from this sort of model"

Source? I've worked for a few corps outside of strict tech focus and that was
not my experience.

What's the end-goal of this anyways? You can't moderate social interactions,
so if your company stops doing alcohol-related events, your teams are almost
certainly still going to go to happy hours. I get that this would be a problem
if every corporate event solely revolved around getting rip-roaringly drunk,
and that would be needlessly exclusionary, but I also doubt that's the reality
outside of some really fringe cases. Although maybe that is how it really goes
down, and I've just had a sheltered workplace experience

~~~
grishas
"It wasn't exactly optional" was that there was an implied request that
everyone would attend. It went on everyone's calendars and was during work
hours, not after.

I'm not arguing alcohol should be removed from office functions. I'm saying
[a] they shouldn't be the focus and [b] maybe we don't need to have fridges of
beer where it is acceptable to grab one and go back to your desk.

My wife's company (a nationwide outdoor retailer) does have alcohol
occasionally at events, but those are semi-regular BBQs at the end of the day,
and are absolutely optional. My friends work in healthcare where there is zero
alcohol. Other friends work in the government, also zero alcohol. My mother
works for a shipping company, also no alcohol on premises. In fact, outside of
tech no-one I know has alcohol kept on premises.

~~~
awinder
So if you're saying that alcohol maybe doesn't belong in the physical
workplace, then I totally agree and see your point completely :-)

------
throwaway2016a
We had someone who came to work for us that told the whole company he was a
recovered alcoholic and everyone was real nice about it. The bosses and co-
workers in this story just sound like colossal jerks.

I actually have an opposite problem, though. We stock the fridge with craft
beer but since everyone is a health nut (I use it as a terms of endearment) no
one wants beer at 6:00 so sometimes I end up being the only one and that feels
awkward. But I've been at the office 11 hours, I want to treat myself.

Also, I find the thought of Beer Pong at the office to be very alarming.
Foosball, sure, but Beer Pong? What are we, Freshmen in college?

But I'm in a East Coast office. We're annoyingly all business here. It is
probably different elsewhere.

~~~
beamatronic
The first time I experienced Beer Pong or Keg Stands was at a software company
in the Bay Area

edit: I didn't mind those at all. But I did not care for Pajama Day and the
pressure to wear pajamas on Pajama Day

~~~
highstep
thank you for reminding me why I love being a remote worker :)

------
Apreche
I'm not a sober alcoholic, I'm just a person that doesn't drink for a variety
of reasons. I can tell you that this isn't just startups. It's our entire
society.

I work at a non-startup and there's a happy hour every Friday at the end of
the day. Everyone else is VERY EXCITED for this Happy Hour. I'm still excited
because we basically stop working, but not nearly as excited as everyone else.

Even outside work, when I go to social gatherings, people are drinking.
Drinking is the main attraction for most people. If I go to a meetup, I'm the
only one who cares primarily about what the meetup is supposed to be about. Go
to a concert, other people get drunk, I am the only one actually trying to
enjoy the music. Even hanging with my friends watching a movie, I'm actually
trying to pay attention to the movie, but for everyone else, they have to
"enhance" the experience with some beverages.

Go to any conference or convention? After-work party? These events are ALWAYS
at bars. What am I supposed to do in a bar? It's the most uncomfortable place
in the world to be for someone who doesn't drink. It's like someone who can't
swim hanging out at the public pool.

While not drinking makes social life, especially in NYC, a bit more difficult,
I do not have the same experience as you. Nobody has ever been a dick to me
about not drinking. They just accept it. I've had some people ask why, but
that's fine. I'll just explain to them. I guess that might be more troubling
if my reason was a past of alcoholism. I've never had anyone get mad or
anything. So I think that aspect might just be an aspect of startup bro
culture. Not that I needed another reason to never work for one.

~~~
VLM
"It's the most uncomfortable place in the world to be for someone who doesn't
drink. It's like someone who can't swim hanging out at the public pool."

No one can tell the difference between a rum and coke, and a coke. It works
for me pretty well. We have some similar outlooks, and perhaps you'll find my
sneaky idea to be useful. Its much easier to fake drinking than to fake
swimming.

I don't even have a variety of reasons not to drink. In the LSD community or
whatever you want to call it there's a well known effect called the 50 trip
limit or 100 trip limit or whatever number, after doing it 50 times you're
either repeating because you never thought about it, or you're bored with the
whole experience, or you're hopelessly addicted. Same with alcohol, at least
for me. I've done it all, drank incredible amounts, stayed up all night,
passed out, puked up gallons, made out, had all kinds of fascinating
hangovers, its really an interesting, although fundamentally worthless,
experience. I checked every square on the checklist. Once your inner
completionist is satisfied, its really a very boring and unpleasant
experience. And now that its boring, I just don't do it anymore. It isn't the
kind of response that fits in 10 words or less at a bar. So I just order a
coke and everyone assumes its a rum and coke.

~~~
chris_7
This is a common suggestion, but I don't want to drink Coke, it's really
unhealthy. I want to drink nice tap water, which doesn't really look like
vodka or gin, since it comes in a giant glass and you drink it at a much
faster rate.

~~~
oarsinsync
I ask for a small glass of sparkling water with fresh lime. People assume it's
vodka. And I get the hiccups easily, so people then assume I'm drunk.

------
canistr
This is also the reason why I tend to stay away from Meetups/Startup
events/recruiting events/etc.

They tend to devolve into awkward situations for people like myself who don't
drink or don't want to waste time with the "oh really? you don't drink at
all?" conversations. I'm not an alcoholic, but people consistently feel the
need to dive into why I don't drink, choose not to, and have never had a
drink.

And as much as people here or anywhere may say that they either A) don't care
whether I'm drinking or B) feel awkward around others who don't drink, the
reality is that the culture is centred around whether you drink and how much.

~~~
rjsw
The stock answer in most places I know in Europe is to say that you can't
drink because you have to drive afterwards. It doesn't have to be true but
nobody will question it.

~~~
alonmower
This is why I love taking my motorcycle to any after hours work/professional
events. I can not drink and no one questions it even for a second

------
samcheng
This was an important lesson freshman year of college:

It's OK to drink, even if you're underage, but you MUST provide Equally-
Attractive Non-Alcoholic Beverages (EANABs) at your parties. And you must
ensure that people from outside the university cannot enter the party.

The author's boss is quite the philistine to insist that everyone drink! I
guess he never worked with Muslims, alcoholics, anyone with an allergy or a
genetic alcohol sensitivity, or anyone taking medicines that impact the liver.

~~~
Chris2048
> but you MUST provide EANABs

What taught you this?

~~~
samcheng
The RAs (upperclassmen) and Fellows (resident faculty) in an all-freshmen dorm
at Stanford.

------
tillinghast
I think the more pertinent question from the example given is: "Did I work for
colossal douchebags?"

~~~
canistr
I disagree, many people I consider to not be colossal douchebags also tend to
make the issue of alcohol frustrating and unbearable.

~~~
strictnein
They react like the people in this article? This founder sounds like a
complete a-hole.

------
neves
I think the USA drinking problem is that the country think it is a problem.
All around the world it is legal to drink some wine during lunch. One of the
greatest pleasures of the world is to drink a cold beer at the beach, but it
is illegal in USA. You can't legally make a Sunday picnic in a park with some
beer and wine. You don't have cafe´s with a nice view to a public square where
you can spend some time drinking and meeting your friends. These are the
greatest drinking problem in America :-)

Don't forget that USA was the country of the Prohibition, and till today its
drinking laws is one of the strictest of the West.

~~~
yompers888
Savannah, GA has no 'open container' law, and it's pretty nice. But yeah, what
a dumb thing to do in the spirit of blind following.

------
everyone
I think startups* have a bullshit enforced 'fun' problem in general. Whats fun
for the founders may not be fun for me. Its still a job, I'd rather put that
wasted money into higher salaries. Thats how IBM do it, their offices are crap
and have shitty bare bone facilities but they pay well, you can buy whatever
whimsical crap you want on your own dime.

*At least the stereotypical silicon valley style ones

~~~
Avshalom
It's part of convincing people they don't need money or a life outside of
work. "sure we're paying you market rate for a 40 an hour worker and sure
you're here 100hrs a week but why would you go home anyway we can get drunk
here in the three hours a week we don't expect you to work"

------
voxmatt
The behavior of some of the author's colleagues is incredibly embarrassing,
and the behavior of some of the author's managers is just reprehensible. I
hope that the more reprehensible behavior is simply an indicator of the
problems of unexperienced founders/leaders. I know the nature of these
anecdotes is not uncommon, but there does seem to be a clear line between the
discomfort associated with office-sponsored drinking events and outright
harassment.

The larger discussion has merits, but I do think, for better or worse, startup
culture is just a reflection of our alcohol focused social culture (and in
full disclosure, I enjoy it). Startups are different in that they often blur
the line between professional and social. This can certainly be problematic,
but it's also one of the most significant reasons that I enjoy working at
startups much, much more than traditional businesses.

~~~
SilasX
Yeah, the founder at the beginning of the story seems like a real jerk --
taking personal insult at someone for refusing to drink _champagne_ for the
celebration, since "this is really big for us"? As if being there to celebrate
with them isn't enough? And flipping out at anyone who asked for the same?

------
noarchy
Should it be seen as a red flag when you're given a tour of the office (maybe
during an interview process) and they make it a point to show your the beer
fridge? My anecdotes aren't data, of course, but every time I've had that kind
of experience, I've discovered that there's an implicit expectation that
you'll stay at work later and drink said beer.

~~~
Chris2048
A red flag of what kind of harm exactly?

~~~
noarchy
I was hinting at that towards the end of my post: the idea that you're
expected to drink it if it is offered, particularly after work hours are over.
Not all of us fancy sticking around at the end of the day.

~~~
Chris2048
Doesn't seems too harmful to me. A corp that wants to milk people of overtime
are not likely to want them drinking a lot, especially for dev.

~~~
noarchy
>Doesn't seems too harmful to me. A corp that wants to milk people of overtime
are not likely to want them drinking a lot, especially for dev.

Then you may not have seen as much of this phenomenon as others of us. There
are definitely companies encouraging on-site drinking.

~~~
Chris2048
Do those same companies pressure overtime work?

~~~
noarchy
Yes, they invariably do. Again, my anecdotes aren't data, but this is what
I've seen.

------
datruth29
This behavior of someone taking offense to you not wanting to drink with them
is something I've seen before. What's particularly infuriating about it is
that you shouldn't need any particular reason not to drink. Whether it's
because you're a recovering alcoholic, or you just don't feel like it, a
simple "No thank you" should be enough.

On a side note, I remember having a discussion with a coworker about after
work drinks. She noted how sometimes people would be willing to stay and work
more if they knew they were going out for drinks afterwards. I imagine the way
alcohol can relive stress with immediacy can lead one to willingly work in
more harsh conditions. Hell, I've stood extremely late several times just
because I knew I can join up with friends later for a drink.

------
cogentleman
I am 23, work at a startup, and also never drink, but definitely disagree with
the implications of this post. Startups don't have any sort of particularly
entrenched alcohol culture in the US- everyone does. And it's not really a
problem, either. You can't ask for planet earth to be a safe space so you
never get tempted by your booze urges again, just continue refusing, it's not
something that can- or should- go away entirely.

~~~
flatpointer23
There is a big difference between work being a safe space where no one drinks,
and one where your boss berates you harshly for not drinking. The article
depicts the latter situation. I drink; I don't care if people don't drink. I
would never, ever respond to someone asking for water the way this writer's
boss did. The boss acts as though he has been personally insulted. That's
garbage.

------
aaroninsf
Everyone knows the answer is _yes_ without clicking. The only qualification is
to modify "startups" to "startup culture."

Are there exceptions? Of course!

But the prevailing culture enshrines and celebrates a lot of the worst aspects
of being young, male, and competitive.

It's absolutely non-unique in this respect, but honestly, there should be a
much stronger countervailing voice flatly stating, _we can do and be better
than this_.

~~~
Bartweiss
The counterpoint is that it's _still_ true if I modify "startup culture" to
"culture". It may be more in-your-face when it's about colleagues, but
drinking-as-socialization is an American (and European) pattern, not a startup
one.

It goes for college parties, it goes for dinner with clients at big companies,
it goes for 4th of July barbecues, and it goes for fancy Sonoma Valley wine
tastings. At a certain point it feels like pretense to blame it on startup
culture - startup culture is largely an intensified, sped-up version of
everyday culture, and everyday culture is plenty focused on drinking.

~~~
aaroninsf
I disagree, though living in San Francisco it's hard to remember how unique
and relatively narrow the cultural spectrum of this industry and place are.

The marriage of drinking and and alpha dominance displays of all kinds, are in
my life experience dominant elements in contemporary US culture; they are not
even tolerated in some circles. In many places I have lived what they call
'nightlife' is strictly demarcated by space and time.

I'd wager this is just one more place where the work / life distinction has
become very blurred or has vanished entirely, around here. :/

In any event on the brighter side, we can look forward to the hangover!

------
a_small_island
When I click the link it loads and scrolls me all the way to the bottom of the
article... very annoying.

~~~
ryanSrich
It's because it's linked to a specific anchor. The mods should change the
parent link to [https://backchannel.com/do-startups-have-a-drinking-
problem-...](https://backchannel.com/do-startups-have-a-drinking-
problem-920139d132a7)

------
joesmo
In my experience working in the Bay Area, this is hardly limited to startups.
I worked at over a dozen places if not more, from startups to the giant
technology companies, and all but one had massive amounts of alcohol on
premises and drank in the office. I've been offered drink in interviews that
to me said implicitly: either drink this or you're definitely not getting the
job. I've seen coworkers leave work drunk and drive. I've had friends who are
recovering from cancer and shouldn't be drinking admit to me that they felt
pressured.

It's not an issue of whether there is a drinking problem, but how big is the
drinking problem? In my experience, it's everywhere, at least in the Bay Area.
I'm not sure about other areas, but I doubt they're much different. It's
hardly a wonder that frat culture and brogrammers exist with this amount of
drinking, nor is it a wonder that so many things are built to sub par
standards, often by sub par people.

It really wouldn't be that big of a deal if people were mature and tolerant of
others who don't drink, not like the asshole bosses described in the article.
There is a wide variety of factors why one might not drink, many of which one
may not want to share: alcoholism, religion, health, doesn't like the taste,
doesn't want to get retarded, needs to drive after, still needs to do work
(yes this comes up __often __), etc. Especially for recovering alcoholics, no
job is worth drinking over. Stupid assholes in charge, don 't understand that
and then they wonder why their company is failing when they're doing their
best to keep away qualified workers.

------
astazangasta
This seems to me a problem with an infantile culture, and not alcohol per se.
The founder in the anecdote is obviously a person of poor judgment, unable to
empathize, egotistical. This kind of enfant terrible is worshipped and
celebrated by SV culture, given power, their fits and tantrums indulged and
even encouraged as part of their mystique of genius, their disruptive zero-
fucks-given.

This problem runs deep; alcohol is only a smidgeon of it.

------
mathattack
That is a tremendously courageous post. Not many people can publicly discuss
their addictions.

I've worked at many places that have had a strong alcohol after work culture,
but it's only recently that I've seen it in work hours. As someone who likes
to drink, it hasn't bothered me, but I also don't want to be exclusive of
people. Many people choose not to drink due to their religion or health goals,
as well as addiction.

I wish the world were a better place about this, but this is part of the
background checking one needs to know about a new job. If you're worried about
being able to take off to see your kid's play, you have to inquire if any of
the senior execs have kids. If you are worried about age discrimination, you
have to see if others with gray hair are thriving there. And if you're worried
about an alcoholic culture, look for people who don't drink. This is very hard
to bring up in an interview, but you can learn about culture via back
channels.

For what it's worth, when I went through periods of non-drinking, I would just
tell people that I was training for a martial arts competition, and needed to
keep my weight down.

------
gshulegaard
I feel like the author extrapolates her anecdotal experience in a dishonest
way.

First, as others have said, this isn't so much a drinking problem as often a
culture problem ("asshole problem"). The first "start-up" I worked for didn't
allow alcohol in the office, period.

Second, as a 24 year old now 3 years in the professional world and two jobs
(so limited exposure), I can honestly say I have never been pressured to drink
or go drinking at either of the start ups I have worked at (thus far). In
college I joined a fraternity so I'd like to think I have seen first hand what
that looks like.

I don't want to belittle the discussion about the bigger picture issues of
start-up culture (as well as the bigger picture benefits), but the author here
seems like she had a bad _work_ experience that just happened to be at a
start-up and now has a chip on her shoulder when it comes to _all_ startups.

------
mst
Things I enjoy doing: When there's some sort of thing where there's free
alcohol, and somebody says they don't drink, interrupt _before_ somebody can
ask an intrusive question with "excellent, more for me then" and if possible
clinking my glass with theirs. Usually spikes (pun absolutely intended) any
issue before it starts.

------
teddyh
See also: _Our Culture of Exclusion_ from 2012. Originally at
([http://old.ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-
exclusion/](http://old.ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/)), but the author
has removed it. There exists a copy here
([https://gist.github.com/jseifer/2314204](https://gist.github.com/jseifer/2314204))
with all references to alcohol replaced with “meat”, but you can read it and
get the general gist, anyway.

~~~
teddyh
Update: Found an available copy on the Internet Archive here:

[https://web.archive.org/web/20130808111450/http://ryanfunduk...](https://web.archive.org/web/20130808111450/http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-
of-exclusion/)

------
ChemicalWarfare
My take on this is sharing a drink is one of the major (if not THE major) ways
of socializing in our culture. So I can totally understand the INITIAL knee-
jerk reaction when someone refuses to drink with 'the team' as this might be
seen as a refusal to socialize.

Although if someone politely refuses to drink, it's really none of my business
why. I for example wouldn't drink [much lol] before a heavy squat day but I
totally don't want to start explaining/justifying this to someone who never
lifted anything heavier than a pint.

------
placeybordeaux
>We began placing orders for the family style meal, when my boss suddenly
announced to the room that I wouldn’t be eating meat. People began to chuckle,
saying things like, “How can you be in Argentina and not try the meat!?”
“You’re not going to try the beef? You don’t know what you’re missing!” Then,
my boss added, “Yeah, she doesn’t drink either. I mean, what the fuck is wrong
with her?” Several people laughed alongside my boss.

That is the most important part of the article. Your boss is a dick.

------
chrisp_dc
I'm not sure it is just startups. I think larger/more established companies
fit into this too, but they may just be emulating hip startups.

I work at a 100-500 person company. I do not attend most company events
because of the amount of drinking. I hate meeting with clients because the
amount of drinking.

As someone who used to regularly show up to work drunk, it's not a healthy
atmosphere for me. However, I do feel an odd sense of loyalty because 2+ years
ago they let me go to rehab instead of canning me.

------
hadtosay
I don't drink now, and I like to say "It works out pretty good - when people
drink, they get relaxed. And when they get relaxed, I get relaxed" It's worked
well for me, ymmv.

------
md224
Hey 'dang, why is this so far down the front page? Is it because people
flagged it? I feel like there's some very good discussion here.

Edit: Uhh... I was downvoted for asking this? Depressing.

------
brandonmenc
Speaking of drinking and startups, does anyone else not get the whole
"drinking while coding" thing?

~~~
Thriptic
Yeah in my experience alcohol only helps with high level ideation. It
typically makes implementation more difficult.

------
eshwar
People have been having drinking problems since ages. Why put it down to
startups?

