
Nest to join forces with Google’s hardware team - shawndumas
https://nest.com/blog/2018/02/07/nest-to-join-forces-with-google-hardware-team/
======
Bucephalus355
I typically do not like Google and a lot of ways the company acts and
performs.

However, recently I moved into sysadmin-type work, partly doing work for state
governments. Cybersecurity is really bad everywhere, and it’s scary, and it’s
frustrating how abstract and very theoretical all the risk is as it makes hard
(justifiably) to take seriously.

Anyway, Google’s reputation with security is (fingers crossed) nothing short
of “almost bulletproof”, and I’d love to see more IoT devices from them. With
the recent rollout of Nest Security System, we’ve actually been advising lots
of small businesses to combine this system, along with Nest cameras + fire
alarms as a solution to actual physical security and fulfilling compliance
alarms. Since Nest also does cellular backup in case of internet outage, we
just hook everything up to an APC and the whole system can run for 10+ hours
without power or internet.

Also also, Android security sucks. Not Google’s fault, but thank god they
moved to making their own phones. Maybe that will encourage better behaviors
from other manufacturers.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Android security is Google's fault. Any kidding yourself that might occur
through believing that OEMs deserve any blame for an update mechanism (or lack
thereof) in a system designed by Google is pretty easily discredited,
especially when you consider it took Google five months to patch KRACK in the
Pixel 2, when third party ROM authors did it in _two days_.

Also, Google's "reputation with security" needs some serious nuance: They are
very good at preventing types of exploits they care about, but they are a
literal joke when it comes to security that interfaces with submitted content
and user choice. Consider that the Chrome Web Store is a literal cesspool of
malware, and that a lot of websites blatantly try to force you to install
extensions through the Chrome Web Store which steal your browsing data. Since
extensions are permitted to request such a huge security hole, Google doesn't
consider it their problem that extensions do it maliciously.

Because Google doesn't consider something they gave permission to do malicious
things to be an exploit or vulnerability, Google can simultaneously claim that
Chrome is the most secure browser, and it be literally the easiest browser to
get malware with.

I can definitely agree with you that state level government security has a
long way to go and is a pretty scary place. But Google can't fix it, because
the biggest problem in government security is still humans, a security layer
that Google has repeatedly demonstrated no understanding of.

~~~
bitmapbrother
>Android security is Google's fault. Any kidding yourself that might occur
through believing that OEMs deserve any blame for an update mechanism (or lack
thereof) in a system designed by Google is pretty easily discredited

It would seem you still don't understand how Android is built. Google cannot
update the phones made by other OEM's. OEM's download the Android source code,
add their modifications and create their own forked version of Android. This
is like asking Debian to update Redhat's Linux distribution. Blaming Google
for the OEM's inability to update their own phones is disingenuous, but it
does support your prime directive of disparaging Google every opportunity you
get.

>especially when you consider it took Google five months to patch KRACK in the
Pixel 2, when third party ROM authors did it in two days.

Those patches were provided by Google incidentally. Additionally, Google
patched KRACK in Dec, 2017 on the Pixel phones. So where exactly did you get
this 5 months?

>Also, Google's "reputation with security" needs some serious nuance: They are
very good at preventing types of exploits they care about, but they are a
literal joke when it comes to security that interfaces with submitted content
and user choice. Consider that the Chrome Web Store is a literal cesspool of
malware, and that a lot of websites blatantly try to force you to install
extensions through the Chrome Web Store which steal your browsing data. Since
extensions are permitted to request such a huge security hole, Google doesn't
consider it their problem that extensions do it maliciously.

Could you point me to the malware on the Chrome Web Store? Since you claim
it's a "literal cesspool of malware" it shouldn't be that difficult for you to
point to those extensions. I look forward to those links.

~~~
pjmlp
Google requires device certification to access their services, including
legally enforced contracts.

They just don't care about updates, otherwise they would remove certification
access to any OEM not providing updates.

Even with Treble they are letting the OEMs do the updates, if they ever take
place.

And to add to injury, devices that are upgraded to 8.0 instead of being
released with it, don't require Treble compliance.

So, our lovely OEMs are mostly shipping Android 7.0 devices in 2018 to avoid
Treble.

It is 100% Google's fault.

~~~
merb
> They just don't care about updates, otherwise they would remove
> certification access to any OEM not providing updates.

I think they care, but they can't do something about it. Because OEM's dislike
updates. Updates does not sell new phones.

Google on the other hand actually has it easier if all their devices are up to
date. They do not need to maintain old code/branches whatever.

It's still Google's fault that they never had something in place to enforce
it. They basically wanted to have anybody on board of the OHA, so they needed
to make tradeoffs in their contracts.

------
chirau
I think this was the natural progression intended from the beginning and it's
a good thing. I personally like the aggregation that Google is undergoing. All
hardware under hardware, all cloud related under Google Cloud etc. I
understand Kaggle is going to be part of Google Cloud as well. Which makes
sense. There was a very large fragmentation of teams previously.

------
pxlpshr
I really wish Google/Nest would end their corporate beef with Apple and
integrate with HomeKit. What happened with the openness of Google?

Instead of buying Nest's _entire line_ to outfit the house I'm building, I'm
avoiding them completely even though I think their products are at the top of
their class.

Nest isn't unique anymore... neither are their cameras... and they are late to
the party with the doorbell. Do I think they are great products? Absolutely!!
But they aren't in a position of leverage, the market is becoming
commoditized, and forcing consumers to use only your app is a poor strategy.
Especially considering it wasn't until a few weeks ago did Nest's app support
iPhone X's new format, MONTHs after it was available to the public.

~~~
nwah1
HomeKit is not using open standards. Google and Nest are. Your question should
be reversed. Why doesn't Apple just use OpenThread or one of the competing
open source IoT frameworks?

[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/11/google_open_sources...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/11/google_open_sources_thread_in_bid_to_win_iot_standards_war/)

~~~
osteele
HomeKit was announced in June 2014, and _released_ September 2014.

Thread was developed at Nest. The Thread Group was _announced_ July 2014, far
into HomeKit's R&D cycle. There wasn't much, or obvious, commercial support
for for years. (Although to be fair, HomeKit has taken forever to get
traction, too.)

I believe that at the time Apple was also concerned about the quality and
security considerations of a Thread-like system. I can't prove or cite this,
but having worked with Apple engineers who worked on MFi (ironically, I worked
with them at Nest, not Apple), I'm skeptical of the narrative that it was
devised as a revenue source. My sense from the culture of Apple when I was
there (90s) and everything I see coming out of there more recently is that
Apple tries to maintain standards of peripheral quality, security, and
compatibility and that have been difficult to find in the Android ecosystem,
say, although this has been detrimental in the case of HomeKit adoption and
they've finally backed off.

~~~
oflannabhra
Thread was developed in the Thread Group, and like any standardization body,
was (and is) open for any company to join at a variety of membership levels.

All members had input in the specification, and subsequent specs.

~~~
hedora
Sweet. Where’s the link to the reference server implementation, and how do I
point a nest thermostat at it instead of google? /s

~~~
oflannabhra
I know you're being sarcastic, but for folks who are actually interested, you
can request access to the Thread 1.1.1 specification here [1], and you can
contribute to Nest's open-source implementation of Thread here [2]

[1] -
[https://www.threadgroup.org/ThreadSpec](https://www.threadgroup.org/ThreadSpec)
[2] -
[https://github.com/openthread/openthread](https://github.com/openthread/openthread)

------
Roritharr
Not sure if this is a smart move, the Brand Nest was far enough removed from
Google to feel different to customers.

Now explaining to my mother that we want to install Google Cameras in my
Apartment is a whole different deal.

~~~
skybrian
It's not clear that the branding will change? Companies can use multiple
brands and this one is well-established.

------
supergeek133
This is going to make it hard for direct product competitors to do business
with Google now IMO. Before it was made very clear that the two groups were
VERY separate within Alphabet.

So as a competitor (say a camera maker) you could feel somewhat OK partnering
with Google Home integrations because there were legal protections that data,
roadmaps, confidential info wouldn't be shared.

Now they're literally the same person, according to this. Ouch.

~~~
xyzzy_plugh
But they never were separate, right? Nest employees had Google badges and had
offices in Google buildings and ate lunch next to Googlers.

This just smells like politics.

~~~
notatoad
>Nest employees had Google badges and had offices in Google buildings and ate
lunch next to Googlers.

did they? i thought nest was an alphabet subsidiary, and operated as an
independent company to Google.

~~~
xyzzy_plugh
Nest was a Google subsidiary before Alphabet was formed. Across the street
from their offices are Google offices. I've talked to Nest employees about
their use of Google infrastructure, in a Google office.

It didn't seem like there was any more separation than you'd expect of the
Android and chromecast groups, for example.

------
oflannabhra
Nest is probably Google's strongest hardware brand (although it has some
blemishes). I wonder what this looks like within Google?

Will Google HW products become branded under Nest? Will Nest remain specific
to the home? Will the Nest brand be dropped entirely? Will things remain
"separate-but-together?"

Will Nest Weave [1] become the default IoT offering from Google, superseding
Android Things? Will Nest Weave run on GCP?

I'm guessing there is quite a bit of turf-warfare going on to determine the
answers to those questions.

[1] - [https://nest.com/weave/](https://nest.com/weave/)

------
olfactory
Mozilla's open source home automation project is a very big silver lining to
this kind of news. Google has not shown any interest in creating a truly open
platform, or in creating lower cost hardware alternatives (no not everyone
wants an audiophile speaker in a simple home automation controller).

~~~
atonse
I am excited about Mozilla's project.

It's probably just my Stockholm syndrome of being 100% invested in Apple's
ecosystem, but I'm kind of less interested in how open something is (because
open often means "slow, takes forever to get anyone to agree"). I'm more
concerned about companies actually having an attention span of more than a
couple of years.

Is Mozilla's thing going to last for 10 years? Is HomeKit? HomeKit has a
better chance. But look at things like Google Weave. What even happened with
that?

All that said, HomeKit, even though it seems superior to everything else from
a security standpoint, has been moving at a glacial pace. Hopefully this
software authentication stuff will make a difference.

The only ecosystems that seem to be sort of thriving are closed, but
extensible ones (Alexa, Google Home) and their originators seem incentivized
to keep them going.

~~~
olfactory
> The only ecosystems that seem to be sort of thriving are closed, but
> extensible ones (Alexa, Google Home) and their originators seem incentivized
> to keep them going.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but I think Amazon has a big
advantage in that it has sold a massive number of Echo and Echo Dots and is
fairly open in all respects except the actual voice data captured.

~~~
atonse
Right this is my point. The "openness" kind of doesn't matter in practical
terms, mostly because the platform is SO extensible and everyone has
integrated with it.

------
cptskippy
My only concern with this move is that Nest products might become less open as
a result.

Apple, Google, and Amazon are developing competing ecosystems and Apple has
been making/keeping theirs as closed as possible. Amazon has remained
relatively open and Google has been somewhere between the two.

I get the feeling that Google would love to be a completely closed system and
they seem to be moving in that direction.

~~~
stcredzero
_My only concern with this move is that Nest products might become less open
as a result._

Will they become better tested, or will it work the other way?

~~~
cptskippy
I guess that largely depends on your opinion of their current level of testing
and Google's level of testing for their other hardware. Presently Nest
utilizes the Centercode platform to manage a pool of beta testers.

------
brailsafe
> built with Google’s artificial intelligence and the Assistant at the core.

Thank god. Nest cameras' object detection leave a lot to be desired as of
present. Like accuracy.

I was going to say that Nest products could use some Google software
engineering polish—which they could—but then remembered the state of Music and
many Play apps on iOS.

------
Touche
The article isn't totally clear, this is a rebranding announcement, right?

~~~
dragonwriter
No, apparently Nest is still both a brand and a coherent unit, but instead of
a direct subsidiary of Alphabet it will be a unit inside the larger Google
Hardware unit.

------
EADGBE
So how long before Google pulls support from Amazon devices like they did with
YouTube?

I _love_ this silo problem.

------
gcr
Weren't they already a subsidiary of alphabet? I don't quite get this.

------
kevin_b_er
What's happening to the Nest brand, then?

------
_sy_
Probably the end of Nest as we know it.

~~~
brianwawok
Has nest really had a successful product past the v1 hockey puck thermostat?

~~~
luckydata
The smoke detectors are fucking great. Even if they are expensive they are
worth every cent.

~~~
Animats
Those are Nest's worst product.

Failure to detect smoke: "Consumer Product Safety Commission: Nest Labs
Recalls to Repair Nest Protect Smoke + CO Alarms Due to Failure to Sound
Alert" [1]

False alarms.[2]

[1] [https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2014/nest-labs-recalls-to-
repai...](https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2014/nest-labs-recalls-to-repair-nest-
protect-smoke-co-alarms)

[2] [https://www.dailydot.com/debug/nest-protect-
annoying/](https://www.dailydot.com/debug/nest-protect-annoying/)

~~~
tacomonstrous
Perhaps it would be more convincing if these reports weren't over 3 years old.
I own multiple Nest Protects, with no issues whatsoever. A year ago, I got
pinged on my phone while we were out and about about a CO leak. Turned out
we'd forgotten to turn the stove off. Without that ping, we'd probably only
have come home a couple of hours later. That alone is worth their cost to me.

~~~
pathseeker
What's worth the cost? Some saved gas from the stove?

~~~
vthallam
Saving a possible inflammation probably?

------
prepend
I will be so frustrated when Google makes my thermostat stop working by end of
living Nest.

~~~
Andrex
That seems like an unlikely outcome of this event, not a foregone conclusion.

------
jotm
I still don't see the point of the Nest thermostat. It takes seconds to adjust
mine for the day, or just turn it low in the morning before work and up in the
evening. It's such a minor improvement that I can do fine without it.

~~~
robotresearcher
You have to be physically present to do so. The Nest can be set over the
Internet using a mobile app. That's a categorical difference. That's not worth
hundreds of dollars to me, but it's a feature some people care about.

~~~
secabeen
There's also the option to tie your heating system into your local utility
provider's network. My utility pays $25/yr to let them turn down your heat a
few times a month, when load is high. Combine that with a $100 rebate on the
Nest, and actual cost to me can be recouped in a few years.

------
muninn_
This sounds good, until Google wants me to sign into a Google account to use
Nest products and then I have to uninstall them from my home.

------
jbob2000
It really seems dumb to have a thermostat at all. If I have a smart home, why
not just have an app for controlling temperature settings? With a google home,
I should be able to say "Set temp to 21".

~~~
SirFatty
A thermostat is the interface to the climate control system, how could you
possible remove it from the system? Where would the temperature feedback come
from?

~~~
jbob2000
Ha, yeah was a quick comment. To be clearer - Why do I need a temperature
interface hanging on my wall? Why not split the device into two; a measurement
device (small, portable) and a controller (remote control, app, voice
controls).

~~~
dankoss
I have a "wireless" thermostat (Honeywell Redlink) and there are a lot of
problems you have to think through to make it work. In particular, what is the
failure mode when the thermostat can't communicate with the furnace? What if
your internet goes down and it can't communicate with your phone? You might
need a different failsafe for when it's 0C vs 25C outside, but what if your
exterior temp sensor stops working or can't communicate with the furnace? Not
to mention the security implications of having an appliance on your network.

All these problems are made much simpler with a wired thermostat and battery
backup. I wish it was easier, but in this case "smart" doesn't really buy you
much energy or UX savings over a simple programmable wired device.

~~~
icebraining
If the Internet goes down, you could still connect locally. It could even
create its own wifi hotspot, like many devices nowadays.

 _Not to mention the security implications of having an appliance on your
network._

Yeah, but the Nest is already connected.

