
“Unadoptable” shelter cats get second chance at life by chasing mice - DoreenMichele
http://www.cats.club/unadoptable-shelter-cats-get-second-chance-at-life-by-chasing-mice/
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bayesian_horse
Behavior problems in dogs are all about training. Behavior problems in cats
are mostly about environment, and virtually never about training.

A cat really is a mirror of its environment. Most problems arise from pent up
energy, group dynamics, clueless Humans, bad toilet placement (yes cat toilet
makes the cat happy, as a German saying goes).

Lots of space, hunting activity, ability to choose contact at will and a well
structured habitat makes such cats a lot more well regulated.

~~~
durandal1
As someone who has dedicated years of behavior modification training a rescue
dog with genetic fear aggression (actual clinical diagnosis), I wish we'd get
away from the "there's no bad dog, only bad dog owners" dogma. I'd agree with
you that the _majority_ of behavioral problems with dogs can be removed or
mitigated with training. However, dogs as with all other species have their
temperament spread a long a distribution - and the outliers rarely survive
their first 2 years, and those how find the right owners who can provide the
right training and management still will never live a normal household dog
life.

~~~
bayesian_horse
I call BS on that "diagnosis" (and I'm a Veterinarian btw). That being said,
there is such a thing as a dog whose behavioral problems are insurmountable. I
just don't want to ascribe it to genetics or anything else specific in any
individual dog.

If training doesn't seem to work, the only option is medication. Especially if
fear is supposed to be a factor. I don't know what you tried and I don't want
to judge because I believe every owner loves their animals, no matter what.

~~~
sandworm101
>> I believe every owner loves their animals, no matter what.

I have run into a couple situations where this was not the case. We had an
incident in Vancouver with a dogsled company (Whistler, post-olympics). Dogs
owned for commercial purposes are often not "loved". Similarly, fighting dogs.
There are many people in this world for whom dogs are not pets but a source of
revenue, status, or fashion.

~~~
bayesian_horse
Even those people tend to love their animals more often than not. I've seen
farmers being affectionate to their cows or their pigs. I knew a poultry
professor who kills chicken all the time but seems to cuddle them when people
aren't looking.

My presumption has proven relatively useful in dealing with owners. Even
loving an animal doesn't preclude abuse, though.

------
Animats
Well, yes. They're predators. That's what cats are for.

When I kept a horse at the Stanford barn, we always had a few barn cats. The
cat people tended to overfeed them, so they wouldn't hunt much. Arrangements
were made with the people who catch feral cats at Stanford to exchange the fat
cats for some lean, aggressive ones they couldn't place in homes. Worked out
fine. Soon, they'd cleared the barn, and started hunting further out until
they'd cleared the whole area.

Working cats should be fed about half the food they need, so they have to
hunt, says an old British G.P.O. manual.

~~~
bayesian_horse
I'd recommend keeping an eye on the cats' body condition.

Domesticated cats are surprisingly efficient hunters, but if mice are too
scared/scarce or the cats depress their population, there's only so much the
cats can catch.

On the other hands most cats should get about half as much food as they
currently do, but that's another story.

~~~
peteretep
Is providing unpalatable but nutritious food cruel or effective or both in
this situation? I'm not thinking nasty food, just, bland by cat standards.

~~~
bayesian_horse
I really don't know. You certainly don't want to give "working cats" a daily
diet they go nuts for.

On the other hand, I don't think food is their main motivation for hunting,
anyway. They just enjoy it so much.

To me it seems the hunting drive in dogs and cats has no relation to their
dietary needs. Another example is that escaped ferrets are able to bring down
prey, but don't hunt enough to survive.

------
Tiktaalik
Metro Vancouver's cat sanctuary RAPS has a "barn cat" program that's similar
to this. [http://www.rapsbc.com/cat-sanctuary/](http://www.rapsbc.com/cat-
sanctuary/)

RAPS located in the suburb of Richmond, which is an odd urban, farming,
industrial fusion of a municipality, and a perfect mix sort of environment for
feral cat colonies to go unnoticed. They trap lots of feral cats, and over
time some times some of these feral cats chill out enough that they're only
semi-feral and can be a good fit for living on farms and killing rats.

They also have all sorts of other unadoptable cats that would be killed at any
normal shelter. Some times this is due to high aggression, problem urination,
special needs or some disease such as FIV (HIV but for cats).

~~~
bayesian_horse
I don't think FIV positive cats should be let outside or into possible contact
with other cats.

~~~
Tiktaalik
Yeah at RAPs the FIV+ cats have their own little closed off zone. RAPS will
potentially let people adopt them if they promise that they'll be inside cats.

FIV+ cats can live ok with other cats so long as they don't fight. The disease
is spread from cats exchanging blood through fights, so from my understanding
it's mostly a feral male cat disease.

(I adopted a FIV+ cat from RAPS so that's why I'm a bit familiar with the RAPS
setup)

~~~
scurvy
Adopted a very loving FIV+ cat that lived way longer than the shelter said he
would. Adopting him was one of the best decisions I ever made. He never went
outside, but he never showed one hint at ever wanting to go out. He went from
feral cat to comfy spoiled house cat.

~~~
tejtm
I picked up a stray (ok, so she jumped in the car) took her to the vet for the
eye crusties found out she was unadoptable due to FIV+ they said they could
put her down, or I could keep her indoors and she would just have a shorter
than average life, six or seven years if she was lucky... that was 14 years
ago and and is still doing fine. Has no interest in going outside, ceilings
are too tall out there for her, suspect that is why she jumped in the car in
the first place

------
justtopost
Nothing new here. Less desirable kitties have become important rodent hunting
'barn cats' as long as I can remember. The problem is they tend not to
discriminate prey, and decimate already hurting bird populations.

The real unspoken issue here is overpopulation, please spay and nuter your
pets! /rip bob

~~~
tdb7893
The study for the amount of birds they eat made a lot of assumptions so
there's doubt on whether it's actually accurate or not. I do agree on the spay
/ neuter, though. Also it's news because these are cats shelters generally
kill

~~~
reaperducer
_The study for the amount of birds they eat made a lot of assumptions so there
's doubt on whether it's actually accurate or not._

Any link to reputable/scientific doubts on this? All my Google Fu churns up in
reiterations of the popular narrative.

~~~
tdb7893
No, my wife studies dogs (but wants to study cats) and her friends were
talking about how that paper was a big impediment to getting better policies
regarding feral cats so sadly I don't have the references in front of me.

Edit: if I remember a large part of the problem they had with it is that it's
very very hard to estimate the number of feral cats and also how many birds
they eat in a scientifically accurate way.

------
honkycat
HUGE cat lover here. Dogs are great too but a lot of work. No point to make,
just a fun anecdote:

Growing up in the country, some of my earliest memories are of my older
brother, my little sister, and me sneaking down to the barn to discover new
kittens, and excitedly telling our mother.

Cue weeks of sneaking down and snatching fat little kittens and carrying them
around loving them.

Plus, they would hunt and keep mice out of the barn. Useful AND adorable.

------
anotherevan
I do not remember the title of a sci-fi book I read that mentioned in passing
that many spaceships had ship cats to manage rodents, just like sailing ships.
It wasn't a feature of the story, just part of the tapestry.

~~~
k_sze
Lafiel and Jinto also have a cat in Crest of the Stars.

------
Theodores
I used to work with a cat and I was quite amazed at his contribution to
software development. This cat lived a few hundred yards away from the office
and there were multiple gates and doors for him to get through. Often he would
start work before anyone else, often he would want to work late. He chose my
desk rather than the sixty or so others to work at. He was very adept at using
a mouse, however, this would not be like how most 'people' use a mouse.
Essentially he would stretch out, see the mouse move on the screen, then
reposition himself so the mouse would move again. It looked like he was moving
the mouse properly but he was just reacting to his own actions. Quite
incredible to see a cat 'using' a computer like so, engaged with the screen
and convincingly moving the mouse.

His contributions to software development were many. One thing this cat worked
out that no Apple/Microsoft/Ubuntu software engineer managed to notice was
that repeatedly holding down the 'Print Screen' button would permanently
immobilise a computer, making a reboot required. Try it for yourself - the
multitude of dialog boxes builds up and makes the computer not usable. This is
also the case if the computer is locked, on Ubuntu (and maybe Windows) the
dialog box still pops up on pressing 'Print Screen' at the login prompt.

I would say that the H.R. department also liked the cat as on any tour given
to a new employee the introductions would be made. At least one of my
colleagues joined the company because they liked the cat friendly working
environment. So he was definitely a hit for recruitment and retaining
employees.

There certainly was no rodent problem but I was on the side of the mice and
have prised his jaws open on a few occasions to let some terrified creature
escape to die from shock a short while later.

To get to the office this cat would take a stroll through an artist's studio.
One time he arrived covered in pink, orange and grey paint. He had ruined a
painting that was due to be sent to a posh gallery in New York. As it turned
out a lot of people wanted to buy that particular painting as it had been
'improved' by the cat, so it sold for an absolute fortune, unlike the rest of
the collection. The paint lasted quite a long time on him as it was oil based.
This was one of many legendary stories concerning this hard working cat, he
also stowed away on a boat and went missing for a fortnight, eventually making
his way back home all by himself.

His actual owners had a fireplace showroom as part of their building business,
so this cat chose our office over his own 'workplace' where he had a dozen or
so fireplaces to sprawl out in front of. Needless to say he did a good job of
selling the fireplace lifestyle to people too.

I think there were a good half dozen or so elderly ladies that he would check
up on so another of his roles was as a care worker. Without his visits they
would have not had as much exercise and contact with 'people', they would let
him in but shun human 'care workers' so he did take his care work seriously.

This cat did have actual staff, so the handyman would go to a posh supermarket
to buy fresh king size Icelandic prawns for him on a daily basis. If the
prawns were a day old then he would turn his nose up and dine out on mice.

As for his hunting skills, his agility was a mix of Houdini and those oriental
style martial art films. His breaking and entering skills were tantamount to
magic. He could also move mid-air in a way that defied physics, making 90
degree turns mid-leap. He defended his territory and as well as keeping the
vermin down he would teach dogs who was boss. Once he broke up a fight between
two dogs giving both of them bloody noses, intervening where no human dared.

He also made timely entrances in company meetings, once when the boss was
called to the front this cat decided that he should spring forward and beat
him to the stage. This had everyone in hysterics.

In North London there is a special cemetary for working animals, I would like
to go there some time. There are ship's cats from previous wars, pigeons from
WW1, servicemen's dogs and other remarkable working 'animals' buried there.
Recently they renovated the place and had a 'fly by' of pigeons which I would
like to have seen. I think my feline friend has contributed enough to be
worthy of a place there when the time comes in eight lives' time...

~~~
jacobush
When is the book out?

~~~
Theodores
Well, the cat happens to be extremely photogenic and a lot of time was spent
taking pictures of him. So maybe a calendar? With a legendary tale that is
based on a true story, mildly embellished, every month, proceeds going to the
local animal rescue charity. There is talk of that.

------
carboy
Cats are decimating bird populations, we don’t need more options for cats, we
need less cats.

~~~
wila
The problem is not so much these shelter cats which are hunting vermin. The
real issue is normal domestic cats where the owner does not care or belief
that their fur child is a supreme bird killer. Even when well fed.

Have one of them purring at my legs. He loves walking outside and catching
birds, mice, etc.. but he will have to play inside instead. He gets out, but
not often alone.

I understand not everybody can take care of their cat like that, but it would
help if people kept their cat in when there's young birds outside.

------
exabrial
One of the local breweries in my city partnered with a local animal shelter to
do something similar. They're the happiest cats that never want want to meet
you. (they are all spay/chipped/collared/vaccinated and get yearly checkups)

------
ggm
I think its interesting we have acceptance of this basic hunting behaviour,
and belief it works, and we have simultaneously denial that cats cause an
overwhelming majority of bird deaths in economies where cats are only an
introduced species. By denial I mean both the wider 'we're in denial about
this' and the specific 'oh... not _my_ cat' response.

Pet cats, feral cats, both. Mainly now, feral cats because we (Australia) have
a huge self-sustaining population of them. The numbers are calculated into the
_millions_ of surplus bird and lizard and small marsupial/mouse deaths per
year (native mice btw, not european mice or rats).

I like cats. I was a cat owner. I grew up with cats. Cats are amazing. They
also are wrecking fragile ecologies.

------
nixarian
If only we could do the same for humans. It's sad to see some of these poor
humans effectively neutered or put down by social or legal forces.

