
Ask HN: What is the root cause of Muslim violence and how do we end it? - sbenitoj
There&#x27;s a lot of debate on this topic, and it&#x27;s obviously a problem worth solving, but it seems the problem can&#x27;t even be discussed without most people getting angry and throwing out ad hominem attacks.
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psgbg
Hmmm. "Muslim..."

This is the same with all kind of violence most of it doesn't have a reason.

But in this case it has. In the case of terrorism it's a business. Their goal
it's to stablish an image and get the people that might oppose them prefer to
do not intervene. And the people they want submission be that submissive. With
this they can exercise control. Impose authority, sell protection (for
example) and control any kind of illicit activities.

It's the same with the drug cartels like "The knights of Sinaloa", the
organized crime remember the "Cossa Nostra". The mongols to cite an old
example.

Conquer by fear.

To end it, well that's another issue. You need to end their flux of money. Cut
their recruitment systems. End the fear.

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kleer001
The root? A thousand years of Christian-Muslim violence.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade)

End it by replacing guns with first aid and tanks with schools. End it by
replacing violence with empathy, by replacing fear with love.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares)

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qatester
Simple, U.S government leave oil exporter countries and do not f..k their
brain with your "democracy". let them manage their own economy, issues, they
are not stupid, they can handle and solve issues on their own. Do not lie to
your people by saying you are defending from terror attack, thats just
ridiculous, you are killing your own citizens and middle east citizens only to
get richer.

~~~
it_learnses
unacceptable. we are all human beings and like it or not we are connected. if
a shariah govt. is suppressing the rights of the people who don't believe in
religion or who believe in women's rights, then damn right we're gonna act.

There are some issues that are global such as basic human rights and we can't
just say we won't interfere. If you expect to export your oil to us and do
business with us then don't take away basic rights and freedoms from people
who don't agree with the majority, i.e. with Islamic theocracy.

~~~
qatester
Have you ever heard about Kaddafi and how they lived? Have you ever heard
violence in their country? Why the hell west destroyed their country? Can you
compare current Iraq after war vs before war? you are saying that shariah
rules suppressing human rights, thats actually how your teachers thought this
to you, and do not forget your teachers are US gov and mass media. there is
one formula for democracy: culture + accepted rules = gov. rules

If you think women rights are suppressed in east countries you are wrong, why?
1. you dont live there, so you cannot give objective idea. 2. things which are
strange to our culture might be totally acceptable for their culture and maybe
they are happy with that. Think about western women who wears anything she
likes or even doesnt wear anything if she wants, so does this mean eastern
people should come to west and bomb europe and say hey you are violating women
right as we believe in our culture? what the hell is this? is this acceptable?
when charlie hebdo creates comicses about died Russian people in Egypt is this
acceptable? or do you say this is freedom of speech? f..k this kind of dual
face freedom of speech and democracy, give people their rights to live on
their country with their culture in peace, do your business in your country,
if you want to buy something, buy it, dont try to teach them how to live, they
know how to live, if they dont they are trying to find a way, this is a nature
of human.

~~~
it_learnses
you are making my point. if women there are happy covering themselves up,
that's fine. if there are women who are not happy covering themselves up, or
following Islam, or praying, or being forcefully married, then their human
rights are being violated. So regardless if it's a part of Islamic culture to
oppress certain minorities for their beliefs, this world will want to correct
it, whether it's offensive to muslims or not. We are not living in the 6th
century anymore and we don't want to go back to it. we as a world want to
continue to progress.

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MalcolmDiggs
I'm no expert, but my basic understanding is that Islam is actually a peaceful
and loving religion. So the violence commonly associated with Muslims is
actually just a radical fringe, not the primary group.

So in that sense, there is no Muslim-violence problem any more than there is a
Christian-violence problem, or a Hebrew-violence problem. So I don't think the
solutions to this problem would be in any way specific to Islam. We, generally
(the US included) have a serious mass-violence problem. We're all aware of the
school shootings, and army base shootings, and theater shootings, and other
kinds of violence domestically. I'm hoping that there is a solution to address
all of these types of violence.

So far, the only thing I can think of is: better mental health care. But I'm
sure there are many reasons that's not a real solution.

~~~
theheck
I encourage you to read the actual text of the Quran, there are ample quotes
that advocate violence against infidels and martyrdom, even if there are some
quotes that contradict them.

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qatester
When France and US killing lots of people, everyone uses words: defend,
democracy. When someone from that countries are doing same everyone says:
violence, attack, terror. I am not defending violence by ISIS, they are f..ked
brains, but put yourself on their place and make decision, when your
relatives, brothers and sisters are killed by US/France bombs, what would you
do? (P.S. I am not from Middee East)

~~~
theheck
I think you're right, violence against Muslims does not cause Muslims to
question their religious beliefs, it hardens them.

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Someone
IMO, a large part of it is the arrogant overestimation of the speed at which
and extent of which foreign policy can change the world, in some cases
augmented with negligence of a segment of the population that is poor and has
fewer chances in life.

Ending it will take decades, as trust comes on foot but leaves on horseback.

------
elmerfud
This is kind of like asking, what is the root cause for young earth
creationists beliefs and how do we end it?

~~~
sbenitoj
Yeah I agree it is, how do you deal with that problem?

------
theheck
The root cause of most Muslim violence is that most Muslims actually believe
the claims that the Quran makes about reality.

Here is a sample of such quotes directly from the Quran:

"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief
and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the
hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3:149-51)

"Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their
brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle: ‘Had they stayed with us
they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause
them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause
of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the
riches they amass" (3:156).

"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will
forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is
guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the
Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the
infidels: ‘These are better guided than the believers'" (4:50–51).

Yes there are also some quotes in the Quran that contradict these quotes (like
all religious texts, it's highly contradictory), and some people may be
animated by charismatic individuals who distort the text, but Muslims who
commit violence in the name of Allah need not believe anything more than the
specific claims that the Quran makes to rationalize their violent actions.

The solution to this problem is like asking, "What's the solution to someone
who still believes in Santa Claus at the age of 30?"

If you encountered such a person, would you let them continue to believe in
Santa Claus or would you empathetically attempt to communicate to that person
that they need to deeply examine their beliefs and ensure they're based in
reality, based on evidence that can be readily observed.

But when most atheists and agnostics encounter a Muslim (or a Christian, or a
Jew, or any religious person), they simply roll their eyes and shrug it off
because they don't "want to get into it with them."

I'm not saying you have to go around trying to prove everybody wrong all the
time, that's a recipe for ensuring everyone hates you. But religious beliefs
are dangerous and they are the direct cause of violence -- not just Muslims of
course, the Crusades are an obvious example of Christianity being the direct
cause of violence.

The solution is to be empathetic, but not apologetic about the fact that their
religious beliefs are not rooted in reality, and all beliefs should be.

TL;DR -- When you encounter a religious person, be empathetic, but not
apologetic when communicating that their beliefs are based on a made up story
rather than rooted in reality (as all beliefs should be).

~~~
rtl49
I've encountered this explanation before (most notably from Sam Harris), and I
don't feel qualified to disagree with it, but I wonder how you account for the
difference between the actions of Muslims and those of other religious
traditions whose holy texts contain comparable passages.

If language advocating violence in a religion's scriptures were in itself
sufficient to motivate its adherents to commit acts of violence, I would
expect comparable levels of violence from these other religions. Given that
this is clearly a problem unique to Islam in the modern age, it seems that the
proximate cause can't be the Islamic scriptures alone.

Even if I'm not convinced, I disagree that you deserve to be downvoted. You've
voiced an unpopular opinion, but it isn't rude or inflammatory (except
possibly for the Santa analogy) and doesn't advocate inhumane behavior toward
Muslims.

~~~
insoluble
> it seems that the proximate cause can't be the Islamic scriptures alone.

My hypothesis is twofold: (1) The people doing the violence have been sold on
these passages of the scriptures by others; and (2) The people doing this
selling are acting for another reason. Hence, the scriptures are serving as a
_justification_ , not a cause in and of themselves. There were plenty of times
in history where Christians used passages to justify their actions, while the
actions themselves were motivated by completely different desires. Essentially
the people in discussion here are using scriptures in the same way that
lawyers use legal code -- not as a reason to sue, but as a justification of
why suit is permissible.

It's all too easy to point a finger at the justification being used. In fact,
the ego loves doing so since it helps one to remain willfully ignorant of the
actual reasons behind the occurrences. Religion is not the cause; Religion is
the justification. Without looking at the cause, one cannot answer the why,
nor can one know how to resolve the issue without jumping on the "It's all the
religion's fault" bandwagon. The ego loves the path of least resistance.

~~~
rtl49
I think this is a reasonable interpretation, but those who disagree with you
might point to a large number of instances where extremists' political
grievances are only intelligible in the context of religious beliefs derived
from the Quran.

For example, the Tsarnaev brothers were born in Kyrgyzstan and raised and
educated in the West, yet they committed acts of violence against the United
States in retaliation for its foreign policy in Afghanistan and Iraq.

What would have motivated them to commit these acts on behalf of Afghanistan
and Iraq, countries to which they had no personal attachment, except for their
religious belief that jihad was justified after the invasion of Muslim lands?
In other words, what renders a person susceptible to "being sold" Islamic
demagoguery other than the content of Islam itself?

~~~
insoluble
Indeed, some of the acts must have been motivated more from the Quran than
anything else. This could probably be said of the Bible and various other
texts as well. One question is the proportion for each various classification
of root cause. Something tells me that the greater the size of the group
acting in a particular instance, the less likely it is to be motivated merely
by the Quran. There are plenty of instances of individuals in the West having
unusual religious and or cult-like beliefs who then go on to act in violence
out of those beliefs.

As far as susceptibility, I would imagine it's pretty much the same as for all
sorts of other fringe groups, such as the KKK. Sometime individuals join such
groups to give themselves a sense of brotherhood, which is probably more
tempting for individuals who don't fit into other circles of society for one
reason or another.

Perhaps what makes these Islamic extremist groups different from many others
is that (a) they are often completely underground and (b) they actively (and
successfully) recruit people who may be susceptible. My guess is this active
recruitment (a) makes the groups bigger, (b) provides them with the tools they
need, and (c) gives the participants an assurance that they will be remembered
for helping the group in its goals.

Back to the original point, I'm thinking that those at the top of these groups
are like politicians in Western states -- they issue plans and orders to those
below them, who don't necessary know what the true cause behind the acts is.
By appealing to a higher power (the Quran), the higher-ups are able to obscure
the true reasons behind the plans.

The true reasons are probably known only at the top. Any grievances between
groups of people could be included in these reasons, whether over resources,
dominance, influence, ethnicity, land, or culture. I guess what I was trying
to say from the beginning is that the primary drive is probably one of the
more common reasons listed above, while the official justification involves
the scriptures. Few groups of people in this world, it seems, will admit that
they are acting out of self-interest. A more popular approach seems to be
saying it was a higher power's wishes.

A good counterargument might be that these people are acting in violence to
gain their reward(s) in the afterlife. The Bible too calls for violence in
various instances, to my understanding, but it sounds like the Quran is more
explicit about the rewards for violence. Nevertheless, people are tricksters.
It would not surprise me if the higher-ups are using these rewards to drive
those at the bottom to carry out acts toward a defined worldly goal. After
all, then there would be benefit both for the higher-ups and for the suicide
bombers. Being able to convince others that they will receive grand rewards in
the afterlife if they just carry out your plans would be a very powerful tool.

