
Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014) - rhubarbcustard
http://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/
======
blue1
The original paper: [http://www.cell.com/cell-stem-
cell/fulltext/S1934-5909%2814%...](http://www.cell.com/cell-stem-
cell/fulltext/S1934-5909%2814%2900151-9)

------
mabcat
Tim Ferriss has poked at the positive effects of intermittent fasting on
cancer/health/longevity a bit. I found this interview with Dominic D'Agostino
very informative: [http://fourhourworkweek.com/2015/11/03/dominic-
dagostino/](http://fourhourworkweek.com/2015/11/03/dominic-dagostino/)

Also: [http://fourhourworkweek.com/2008/03/02/postponing-death-
calo...](http://fourhourworkweek.com/2008/03/02/postponing-death-caloric-
restriction-vs-intermittent-fasting-part-1/)

~~~
cableshaft
What he argues makes some sense, but his total dismissal of IF paired with
low-carb seemed counter-productive.

"The one question that remains unanswered is whether or not the intermittent
fast followed in a low-carbohydrate way will lead to these same problems. To
me, that point is kind of moot. Why? Because I looked at the IF as a strategy
that allowed me to eat a lot of high carb foods that I would normally avoid
and not pay the health consequences for it. If I’m going to limit myself to
low-carb foods, why go on the IF? I can get the same results just following a
regular, whole-food, low-carb diet without having to eat only every other
day."

Okay, so you only care about IF if it lets you indulge in high-carbohydrate
food, so you aren't even going to try to determine if your thermogenesis
argument holds for people doing both IF and low carb?

Considering I'm currently doing a low-carb diet and using mild IF (basically
skipping breakfasts and not eating after ~8pm, so roughly 14-16 hours fasting
most days) to try to break my weight plateaus and meet my weight loss goals,
that paragraph, while valid (and I'm glad he shared it), rubbed me the wrong
way and doesn't give me any information to help me determine whether I should
be skipping that meal or not.

~~~
jwdunne
I was reading a blog post by Dr Jason Fung that compared LCHF with IF.
Conclusion was that LCHF is around 70% as effective as IF on insulin levels.
You are still maintaining a low insulin level even on eating day, with a
significant drop on fasting days. This should, by logic, have greater impact
on insulin sensitivity due to long periods of low insulin levels.

His whole blog is quite interesting. His book, The Obesity Code, is a great
and easy read.

[https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/power-comparison-
fast...](https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/power-comparison-fasting-vs-
low-carb-fasting-26/)

~~~
cableshaft
Thanks for the suggestion. I've heard of it, and plan on reading it
eventually, just haven't found the time yet.

------
abarringer
In my own experience day 3 of a water fast had profound effect on my health. I
have some health issues so I closely monitor my blood pressure and blood
sugar. On the morning of the fourth day my blood pressure and blood sugar
would drop tremendously and stay normal for several months. ymmv

~~~
markkat
Just a personal anecdote, but I was getting colds and flu-like symptoms
several times per year for years. People I knew often commented on how often I
was ill. I did a 3-day fast two years ago, and haven't had much more than a
scratchy throat for about two days since. It could be coincidence, but other
people have noticed and commented on my healthier state. I haven't
significantly changed my behavior otherwise.

~~~
pc86
It has to be a coincidence. I can't imagine what the health benefits of a
single 3-day fast could be that they would be so massive as to change your
entire health for years.

~~~
joveian
A change in gut bacteria could potentially do that. However, normally that is
quite difficult to change long term. I seem to have a collection of gut
bacteria that give me bad gas quite often without sticking to a very strict
diet and I found a few months ago that a five day fast reset that as well as
antibiotics. However, either way it gradually returns to the way it was (most
of the way back after three months). Good to know that three days of fasting
helps some people, since that is much easier than five :/.

------
xarope
I tried searching for the original article, but this is the closest I could
find that had a better writeup than from the telegraph:
[https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-
regene...](https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-
of-damaged-old-immune-system/)

This is the most relevant summary: "In both mice and a Phase 1 human clinical
trial involving patients receiving chemotherapy, long periods of not eating
significantly lowered white blood cell counts. In mice, fasting cycles then
“flipped a regenerative switch,” changing the signaling pathways for
hematopoietic stem cells, which are responsible for the generation of blood
and immune systems, the research showed."

So, mice, and people undergoing chemotherapy. Not exactly (for those who have
had friends and relatives ever had to undergo chemotherapy, you will
understand what I mean) the common population.

I'll pass on this intermittent fasting "fad" for now!

~~~
yodsanklai
> I'll pass on this intermittent fasting "fad" for now!

It's amazing how people are prone to experiment with this type of things.
They're willing to undergo a very unpleasant experience because it might
(unlikely) give them a (slight) health improvement.

~~~
forgetsusername
> _It 's amazing how people are prone to experiment with this type of things._

As opposed to over-eating resulting in a global epidemic of obesity? Which
eating habits do you think are the biggest "experiment"?

~~~
yodsanklai
There's a middle line between over-eating junk food and fasting!

~~~
forgetsusername
I agree. And I think the vast majority of people overeat and don't realize it.
I think the obesity rates reflect that.

Observe the conversations around these articles every time they pop up: people
think it's unhealthy to go without calories for any amount of time. Where does
that come from?

~~~
gtirloni
It's one's wishful thinking against other's wishful thinking.

Luckily science has produced good evidence in favor of fasting / calorie
restriction that this is slowly changing.

------
NinoScript
If I were to fast for that long, should I ingest anything other than water?
Some vitamin supplements for example? Or maybe a bit of salt? Or is it really
only water?

~~~
baccheion
Ingesting anything will ruin the fast. Even brushing your teeth becomes
tricky, as toothpaste can ruin everything. I ended up using a salt water
solution (and an electric tooth brush) to do the job, but in hindsight, I
could've used something like ToothSoap. It's extremely important to rinse the
mouth thoroughly, so you don't swallow anything.

It is possible to run low on vitamins (depending on how long you go). If it's
just 3-7 days, then it doesn't matter as much, but some people go a full 28
days (you can theoretically go about 40 days without causing problems, but as
it will take another 40 days to break the fast, it proves to be too much for
someone's first time (with 3-7 days working better)).

The step in a water fast that does most people in is the breaking of the fast.
The key to a successful water fast is properly breaking the fast. It can be
even more difficult, as while any hunger usually goes away within the first
day or two, when the fast is first broken (with your first taste of 50%
watermelon + 50% water, for example), it will kick the digestive system back
into action, and you may easily become overwhelmed by an intense hunger. If
you don't have the willpower to ignore this hunger, then you may end up eating
something prematurely or eating too much.

The solution that works for most is to either buffer up on vitamins and
minerals in the weeks leading up to the fast (which also ensures they don't
have any hidden deficiencies), or to start with a juice fast (vegetables
blended in a Vitamix, for example).

~~~
imatworkyo
and whats wrong with eating too much - I understand that you say breaking the
fast is important ... but why?

~~~
NTripleOne
I don't know any of the science behind it, but it's my understanding that
during long periods of not eating, metabolism gradually slows to a crawl to
allow maximum duration from the amount of 'energy' available in the body.

I'd wager it gradually ramps back up again once food is reintroduced, and
overeating during this period could probably lead to some pretty hefty weight
gain.

~~~
blaze33
People died of eating too much when the prisoner camps where liberated at the
end of WWII.

------
randomgyatwork
Last weekend I did a 60 hour fast, part of my motivation was research like
this.

What I discovered after and into this week is that my self-control has
increased dramatically.

------
kseistrup
Although I haven't attempted this myself, I have seen many people attempt to
endure a 72 hours fast (as part of diagnosing a potential pheochromocytoma)
and the majority experience this as extremely difficult.

I wonder if multiple shorter fasts — e.g., a 24 hours fast once a week — could
be as beneficial.

~~~
dazzawazza
I regularly fast for 20+ hours (calorie restriction, I do drink water because
I am not an idiot) once or twice a week. You get very used to it.

While its not something I look forward to, it's purely psychological. A few
hours after I miss 'breakfast' my tummy rumbles two or three times and then my
body doesn't care anymore.

The max time I've fasted is forty hours and I have to say if you can get past
the first fours hours, it's easy. I didn't really plan to fast that long,
circumstances led to it. I actually found it hard to eat after it. I normally
eat a very small 500-600 calorie meal after a fast but I couldn't finish it
after the long fast.

I think we underestimate how adaptable our body is and how intermittent
fasting is actually the norm for most mammals.

~~~
mattmanser
How is a 500-600 calorie meal 'very small'?

Most normal dinners are 600-800 calories.

~~~
tbihl
If you're used to 800, 500 is a pretty huge drop.

My intake to maintain weight is about 2600kcal/day as a lightly-moderately
active person. I normally do a breakfast of about 400-500 calories, and then
900-1000 for lunch and dinner. So if I weren't just waking up, 500-600 would
be very small for me.

------
yuja_wang
The "Body Positivity" movement that encourages people, especially young woman,
to be obese or overweight, and tries to criminalize images of slender people
in advertising may be the most unhealthy political movement there is.

Obesity kills 300,000 people in the U.S. each year, and with the exception of
several hundred people suffering with psychological disorders who manage to
starve themselves each year, being slender or even a bit "underweight" has no
negative health effects and may have some positive ones.

------
ivanhoe
Donating blood has a very similar "boost" effect, and also helps save lives.

~~~
acconrad
Unless the act of donating blood releases some endorphins because you're
helping someone else, then this is just bloodletting or phlebotomy, which is
considered pseudoscience by the medical community.

[1]
[https://books.google.com/books?id=vH1EAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT293&dq=b...](https://books.google.com/books?id=vH1EAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT293&dq=bloodletting+pseudoscience&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0VL3VJfPJIagyQTLkIGICg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=bloodletting%20pseudoscience&f=false)

~~~
mrob
Phlebotomy is still the standard treatment for iron overload. Humans usually
regulate iron levels effectively by reducing absorption when iron levels are
high, but there are genetic diseases where this regulation malfunctions, and
very high dietary intake (usually from supplements) can overwhelm it.

Iron overload affects many different organs so mild cases might not have any
obvious symptoms beyond a vague sense of bad health. There has been some
research suggesting health benefits to phlebotomy even in patients without
obvious iron overload, eg:

[http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7...](http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-10-54)

~~~
AstralStorm
Iron overload, of all things, in a diet? Not likely. You will not be able to
scarf down that much of it unless you're a habitual liver eater.

About the only way to experience such an overdose is to overdose on
supplements.

------
wodenokoto
Do they literally mean zero intake of calories for 72 hours? That sounds like
a long time. How do you prepare for that nutrition wise and mentally?

People eat at night during the ramadan.

~~~
codedinosaur
About 3 years ago, I undertook a water fast that lasted about 17 days. It does
take a lot of mental preparation. Nutrition wise, I ate only fruits for about
a week before the fast. The first few days were very hard, but then I simply
did not feel hunger at all. I intended to continue the fast for 30 days. But
from about the 4th day onwards my mouth started having an awful odour and my
tongue had a thick white coating that was the source. Into the third week, I
simply couldn't bear that smell anymore and gave up. for getting back to
regular food, I did the same thing and had only juices and fruits for about
3-4 days.

Now, I'm not an expert, but I read while preparing for the water fast that
your body has nutrients it needs to survive for a few weeks. I didn't take any
supplements during that time. Unfortunately, at that time i didn't have the
means to measure and quantify what changed after the fast. I do remember being
in a great mood for a few days after the fast. I don't know how much it
benefited me, but it was an interesting exercise

~~~
xarope
That odour is probably the ketones coming into play when the body starts using
fat for energy, instead of carbs or protein. And yes, it's a well known fact.

~~~
dualogy
For 3 weeks straight would be unusual though and not explain the commonly
occurring tongue coating.

~~~
AstralStorm
Sounds more like lack of immunity and candidosis.

------
baccheion
The most shocking thing (when I fasted for 5 days) occurred when I broke the
fast. I broke it with 4 ounces of liquid (50% watermelon (straight from the
fruit) + 50% water), only to have it come right back out 15-30 minutes later--
just as red as it was when it went it. It was mind boggling. I suppose I had
gone my entire life thinking what comes out was always supposed to be brown,
but when I looked in the toilet, all I saw was red. I couldn't believe it.

Also, I'm not dead. And lucky enough for me, I wasn't very toxic, so I easily
went 5 days on nothing but water.

~~~
dsacco
You didn't consume anything but water for five consecutive days?

I also don't undertake what you mean by, "I wasn't very toxic."

~~~
baccheion
Yea. It was fairly uneventful. The first day or two I was hungry, but it was
mild. Perhaps it was easy, as my eating habits left me naturally in
intermittent fasting mode (I'd eat lunch at 1pm, dinner at 8pm, then nothing
else).

~~~
dsacco
Do you find that you drink more water to try and "stifle" the hunger?

~~~
baccheion
Huh? I've been hungry before, so it wasn't too overwhelming. I just layed
around, surfed the web, etc. It was fairly straightforward, familiar, and easy
to ignore. As the days went on, the hunger went away, and my desire to drink
water went down as well. I had to remind myself to continue consuming water
(but then not too much, as that would be bad as well).

------
lgp171188
I fasted for a day when fighting with my parents. Worst thing to do since I am
a Type-1 diabetic and ended up with Diabetic Ketoacidosis the next day and a
near-death experience :-(

Fasting is not for everyone!

~~~
dualogy
Well it's pretty much for any mammal _except_ type-1 diabetics --- plus folks
taking medication for blood sugar / insulin regulation without informing
themselves thoroughly beforehand and monitoring carefully.

~~~
lgp171188
I was an idiot and I am not proud of that! I was thinking like "I need insulin
when I eat food. So since I am not eating, I don't need insulin and everything
will be fine" :-(

------
simonebrunozzi
I know Valter Longo, one of the paper's authors.

Valter created a company, L-Nutra
([http://www.l-nutra.com/](http://www.l-nutra.com/)), and donated his shares
to a foundation to avoid any conflict of interest.

I have tried their product, Pro-Lon, twice, and I have been very pleased with
the results.

Feel free to ask me anything if you're interested in learning more.

------
rdtsc
It is interesting that fasting and dietary restrictions are part of many
popular religions. Perhaps some discovered these benefits and codified them as
scriptures.

------
FuNe
> When you starve, the system tries to save energy, and one of the things it
> can do to save energy is to recycle a lot of the immune cells that are not
> needed, especially those that may be damaged

That's remarkable news. I'm waiting to see the counter-arguments though.
Fasting for 3 days seems like stretching the limits a bit. Also it seems to
imply that these 3days periods are repeatable over the course of a few months.

~~~
hyperdunc
It is indeed a fascinating discovery. BTW, fasting for more than three days
sounds crazy but can be surprisingly easy.

------
pknerd
Well, Islam gave the concept of _3 days fasting_ every month 1500 years ago
and called "Ayyam Beez" and many Muslims have been practising it in every
generation.

Glad to know that science also discovered it.

~~~
misev
Interesting, why isn't it as popular as Ramadan? I could barely find anything
about it online.

~~~
SinomaSo
It's not popular as Ramadan because it's not a must. Its called "ayaam albeed"
which translates to "white days". It's called that because the moon is full on
those three Days (13, 14 and 15th of each moon calendar month). The fast is
from dawn to sunset and you are not allowed to drink water during that period.

[1] [https://pearlsofamuslim.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/white-
da...](https://pearlsofamuslim.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/white-
days.jpg?w=771&h=953)

------
chiefalchemist
re: "People are better eating on a regular basis.”

Well, that depends on what you're eating. One can't help but wonder if the
reaction is not because of fasting per se, but because toxins are not be
introduced into the body on a regular basis.

------
drc0
let's see how many people will try fasting alone and end up with bad side
effects.

------
mrfusion
How do you get electrolytes during a fast?

~~~
hyperdunc
You don't need to consume any. For a normal water fast where you don't
exercise, everything you need is taken from the liver and fat.

~~~
mrfusion
So it's really just sweating that draws down your electroliytes?

~~~
hyperdunc
Sweating will eliminate large quantities of electrolytes quickly, but you will
pass out before that happens. Any exercise beyond light stretching while on a
water fast is dangerous.

------
mrfusion
Would this help with gum disease?

~~~
acwu
It's interesting you brought this up. I used to skip breakfast all the time
being a late riser. My gums were in a terrible shape with constant flare ups.
I couldn't figure out why since I don't smoke. A few months ago I started
eating breakfast regularly and I've noticed marked improvement. Obviously this
is just my personal experience and YMMV.

~~~
hollerith
It is hard for me to figure out what an improvement caused by starting to eat
breakfast regularly has to do with the immune-stimulating effects of not
eating for 3 days!

ADDED. Thanks for the reply to this comment.

~~~
acwu
I was just responding to a comment asking about gum disease. Also I cringed
somewhat reading comments thst advocate fasting that involves skipping
breakfast. I don't claim to have any expertise.

------
mikkom
I thought I had seen this before and then I checked the date.

This is from 2014.

------
micahbright
I am curious the effect this would have on people with HIV/AIDS.

~~~
AstralStorm
Likely deadly in case of AIDS. Initial stage of the fast lowers immunity a
lot. Body reacts by lowering metabolism via parathyroid suppression among
other things.

------
chiefalchemist
For ages various alt-medical practitioners have been mentioning fasting as a
positive. But "the real science" has denied its value. Not, "Oh, we're not
sure." But, "Oh. No way. That can't be." Will Med Science now come out and
say, "Oh, we're sorry. Looks like y'all were right all along."? (Hit: No
never.)

Instead they'll spin it as, "Look what we found..." And people wonder why many
of us don't trust Big Science, Big Med, Big Pharma, etc. Ha. They're assholes.
That's why.

Makes ya wonder, when occasional we hear about some "miracle" recovery if that
person didn't accidentally fast from being too ill to eat, and that actually
kicked started curing them. It wasn't the meds. It was the fasting. How many
meds and med studies were skewed because this wasn't factored in?

