
Ask HN: What can motivate senior developers go work in startup with low salary? - LisaDziuba
Let&#x27;s imagine an early-stage startup with MVP or cool product idea. The startup founders don&#x27;t have &quot;success records&quot; of sold companies, fancy office or perks.<p>It&#x27;s a typical bootstrap company with inspired founders team and cool idea. And what is important: this is a startup outside of SF.<p>So... what could motivate you as a senior developer to join such company?<p>* shares?<p>* challenging tasks?<p>* &quot;dream team&quot;?<p>This might sound like a silly question, but getting tech people is the hardest part for every early-stage startup. So I&#x27;m curious to know your thoughts.<p>Thank, 
Lisa
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spooneybarger
All 3 but I think most important is feeling sure that the business leaders
understand Engineering trade offs and who to sell the product. You can’t do
everything. Everything comes with an opportunity cost.

Have the business leaders thought that through? Can they talk about it
credibly? Can they explain how they imagine the company will succeed?

There are certain characteristics around focus, willingness to make hard
decisions etc that are more important to me than a “record of success”. Past
success doesn’t indicate future success. After all, there’s a ton of luck
involved.

~~~
LisaDziuba
wow! To summarize your ideas: the founders should prove that they are real
leaders who know how to succeed in both tech and business part.

Follow-up question: how do you define if founders can do that? Is it how they
talk (credibility is something hard to image without context)? Maybe they need
talk about numbers & future plans?

I'm curious to understand, what is important to show in the job description
and tell during the interview with the engineers.

Some side note: in our founding team we have both business and engineering
expertise. We talk about this from the perspective "what we can teach you" but
not from "look, we can deliver result".

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JPLeRouzic
* Better use someone on a short fixed term job who will write a specification and a test suite (and penalities). Then subcontrat the development to some remote company and use the test suite to verify the compliancy of the deliverable with respect to the specification. You can as well use short fixed term jobs for the testing team.

~~~
LisaDziuba
I thought about it as well. However, at some point in the very close future,
we will need an in-house team. So maybe having motivated development team
right now is better than searching & managing someone of a short-term base.

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lovelearning
I value the option to work remotely. It means I know I'll be working in an
environment I'm already comfortable with as opposed to an environment that an
employer thinks/hopes will make me comfortable. Also much less time, money and
energy wasted on commuting to work and back.

~~~
LisaDziuba
1.5 year ago we had experience with the remote team. Being totally honest: it
didn't work out. Maybe because we had lack of process, maybe we were bad at
managing people. Still physically working with a team and having that personal
touch makes me feel comfortable and sure that everyone on the same page.

Maybe you could explain what means "comfortable environment" for you? Just
curious to know.

> Also much less time, money and energy wasted on commuting to work and back.
> As I'm from Kyiv and I'm leaving in the city center, that is something
> unexpected for me. An interesting point to consider...

~~~
lovelearning
Remote work can be difficult on both sides when starting out - difficult for
managers who are more used to face-to-face management, and difficult for devs
too who have to develop good self-discipline in a relatively unstructured
unsupervised environment. I think it's a matter of experimenting and
practising (which unfortunately a typical small startup can't afford to do).

Comfortable environment for me is many things. It includes the physical
things: \- a favorite working chair.

\- a preferred working location - in my case, from home some days, and from a
co-working space on others

\- preferred food

\- a preferred ambient lighting level

\- a preferred AC level

In case you're puzzled about the last two: very bright cubicle lighting gave
me eye fatigue in multiple workplaces, and very cold AC levels caused
discomfort, probably due to dehydration. It reduced my productivity in those
workplaces, and because the only relief was to come home and sleep, it caused
me to not be able to enjoy my hobbies after work. That affected my motivation
and sense of well-being.

Environment is also the computers and tools I prefer. I use multiple computers
for my work, each of which has been setup for specific kind of work. In some
companies, they provided company laptops, but sometimes they were
underpowered, and other times I had to use a particular OS/editor/other tools.
In one place, every little installation required permission and authentication
by a system administrator.

These may look like minor things to employers, or may even look fussy, but
they did affect my productivity and sense of well-being a lot.

From my point of view, all these were unnecessary problems and complications,
and often lead to second and higher order problems. If those workplaces had
provided a remote option, they wouldn't have these problems, I would have been
more productive, and I might even have continued to work in those places.

When I was very inexperienced, I didn't mind these problems at all, didn't
have the leverage or financial security to be able to negotiate or refuse
them, and had even convinced myself that they're part of life.

But it need not be that way. Once I turned towards consulting and remote work
with a backup plan for my financial security, I realized how much better life
can be. Now, I can afford to be choosy about whom I work with and where I
work.

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ytNumbers
Early stage startups always entail challenging tasks and shares. You're trying
to persuade senior developers to gamble on a couple of founders with no track
record and an idea. You had better have a truly incredible idea! Care to share
what that might be? Right here and now is an opportunity for you to
demonstrate your superior management skills by utilizing HN to pitch to the
best developers in the world. It's a free spin of the wheel, so why not try to
hit the jackpot?

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JPLeRouzic
Find a retired guy that still have a child with an uncertain future
(disability, etc...), then offer shares for the child, not for the guy.

The guy might not be interested for himself (after all the life expectancy is
not huge when you have retired), but the possibility to clear the skies for
the child is immensely attracting.

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cimmanom
Depends on the specific developer and a bunch of other factors.

Having been through the startup song and dance more than once, I can give you
a single data point: what motivates me.

1) I prefer to work with small rather than large companies because of the
opportunity for autonomy and to understand and be involved in the business as
a whole rather than just one tiny corner. But upon interviewing I have to be
convinced I'll get those things.

2) How low is the salary? I don't expect Google salaries from a tiny startup,
but I won't take less than what I see as market rate for small companies,
either. The opportunity cost is too high, and I've got enough experience to
know that the expected value of all those stock options is exactly $0.

3) I pick jobs in part based on what I want to learn next. Sometimes those are
technologies (a language or framework); sometimes they're developer skills
(get better at code review or devops); sometimes they're soft skills. You need
to be willing to hire people who don't already have experience in all the
things you expect them to do. And you need to either be able to give them
mentorship or the space to fail until they learn those things.

4) What's the commute like? A five minute difference in commute won't be the
deciding factor when choosing between jobs, but I'll never take a job that
requires more than an hour each way; and a 10-minute walk to work is
incredibly appealing. Even better, allow me to work remote at least 3 days a
week, with zero commute and more control over my environment (see next point).
And if you're open to fully remote work, you can find excellent senior
developers in Nebraska, Argentina, or Poland, whose expectations around work
culture are similar but whose idea of an excellent salary is half that of the
Bay Area/NYC/Seattle/etc.

5) What's the office like? I've resigned myself to the fact that almost no
small companies have anything other than an open office these days. Poke
around HN's archives a bit to find out what the majority of engineers think of
open offices and why. If you can offer private offices, small team offices, or
even cubicles, highlight that in your posting to get developers beating a path
to your door.

6) What are the hours like, and are they flexible? After doing this for 15
years I can say with confidence that while I can do a couple weeks in a row of
more than 40 hours during crunch time, it'll take either a week off or 6 weeks
of working 40-hour weeks at 50% productivity before I'm back up to full
productivity. Too many startups try to push their developers at a 60-plus
hour/week pace and quickly burn them out. I won't even consider that job any
more. I value my health (mental and physical) much more than any job.

There are probably a few other things but they're not coming up off the top of
my head. You'll notice that none of the above points are especially "sexy" \-
they're mostly about offering day to day quality of life that's better than I
can expect elsewhere. Junior developers who are new to the industry may be
dazzled by the idea of a dream team and exciting new problems and omg equity!
But most of us who have been around the block a few times just want a sane
working environment and reasonable compensation at a place where we won't
completely stagnate.

~~~
LisaDziuba
Thanks for your comprehensive comment! Very thoughtful and it gave me many new
ideas to showcase our "strong sides" (what we can actually offer).

Some notes:

1) > But upon interviewing I have to be convinced I'll get those things. I'm
feeling more and more that we as a startup have to convince the engineer that
we are worth joining us.

2) > How low is the salary? I won't take less than what I see as market rate
for small companies Totally understandable. Do you think it's possible to
propose reduced rate for some period of time (until investments come to the
bank account)?

3) > I pick jobs in part based on what I want to learn next. Mentorship is
what we heavily do for our current small team. This comment helped me to
understand what I need to highlight in my job offer :) As we have a tool
inside iOS simulator, there are many new things we can propose to learn. Can
be a good point for candidates.

4) > What's the commute like? Together with the comment from @lovelearning,
you made me think about the commute... Seriously, I have no idea that it can
be an issue. We have a room in the friends' office near the subway station.
It's like 5 min walk from the subway and it's near the city center. We're from
Kyiv and public transport is pretty good here, so it can be one more good
point to mention.

> Even better, allow me to work remote at least 3 days a week, with zero
> commute and more control over my environment Generally, we would prefer
> someone in the office but that's something discussable. If a person can
> deliver and we build remote process, then fine. Good point to mention too.

5) > What's the office like? small room with 6 tables, nice flowers, my
paintings on the wall and mutual kitchen. As we rent that room from friends,
they are working in that space as well. Our room is always closed by the door,
so it's quite there.

6) > What are the hours like, and are they flexible? Flexible hours and we try
to care about mental health. By this, I mean we don't push the team with extra
work hours or workload, unless it's critically needed. As founders, it's our
job to work 24/7 and fix all the fires, as well as do all shitty tasks.

7). > But most of us who have been around the block a few times just want a
sane working environment and reasonable compensation at a place where we won't
completely stagnate. as anyone else :)

Thank you again!

~~~
cimmanom
You're welcome. I wish more startup founders would _ask_ what developers
actually want instead of making (often idiotic) assumptions. To answer your
followup questions:

> 1) I'm feeling more and more that we as a startup have to convince the
> engineer that we are worth joining us.

Yes. This. Even mediocre software developers have tons of opportunities open
to them these days. You need to convince them why they should work for you
instead of the other guys. Frankly, that should be the case with any employee,
but it's even more so in a market where talent is scarce and opportunities
abound.

> 2) Do you think it's possible to propose reduced rate for some period of
> time (until investments come to the bank account)?

That depends. A) Is that investment deal already closed and signed, and just
waiting for the funds to land? B) Why should I believe you'll ever have that
money? C) Will I be getting back pay to my full rate once the money does land?
D) What's the incentive to me to take that risk at all, when I could just get
a job with a company that will pay me in full now? Am I going to be paid
interest on what's essentially money I'm lending to the company during that
period? [In short, the answer is "probably not", but maybe if you can find
someone unusually trusting or desperate, in which case you may want to ask
yourselves why they're so desperate.]

Good luck!

