
Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth? - piratebroadcast
my work is trying to get me to join their program but who knows how long Ill be there. Im old enough that its time do do <i>something</i> but not sure whats the best for the developer lifestyle.
======
Jtsummers
401ks can be rolled over to IRAs. They can also (often? always?) be rolled
over to another 401k when you change jobs.

If you get matching, contribute _at least_ that much to your 401k. Then max
out your IRA (greater freedom in investing). Then work on maxing out your
401k.

Many people point to the tax-free nature of these. Traditional 401k and
Traditional IRA means you don't pay taxes now, but are taxed on the
distributions in retirement (treated as income, not capital gains). Roth
versions of both mean you pay taxes now on the contributions, but not in
retirement on the distributions.

The (to me) much greater benefit of all four options is _tax free growth_. My
Roth IRA is a standard brokerage account. Let's go through a scenario, two
ways: invest in a standard brokerage, invest in any kind of 401k or IRA.

If you invest $10k in a standard brokerage, wait some time, and sell at $15k
for a profit of $5k, you owe taxes (income if less than a year, capital gains
if more than a year). Let's assume capital gains (15%), you only have $14,250
to reinvest ($750 paid in taxes). Every time you sell you lose a bit of your
profit.

If you invest that same $10k in an IRA or 401k, make the same profit in the
same time and sell (in the 401k you don't sell, but rather move to a different
fund, concept is the same), you owe no taxes at that point. You have the full
$15k to reinvest.

Losing 15% (or more if it's a short term investment) of all earnings seriously
eats away at your retirement savings if the money is in a standard brokerage.
Similarly, you lose some percentage of all dividends earned in a standard
brokerage. So your 1-4% dividend yield is really more like .75-3% after taxes.

All things being equal, your money will grow faster in a 401k or IRA. If the
intention is to leave the money alone (not spend it, but probably tweak
investments) until age 60 or higher, invest in these accounts.

~~~
scarface74
_They can also (often? always?) be rolled over to another 401k when you change
jobs_

I can think of no good reason to ever roll a 401K to another employer instead
of rolling it over to a usually much lower cost IRA.

~~~
SaberTail
I can think of one common situation for typical HN readers. If you make too
much money to contribute to a Roth IRA, and your workplace offers a 401k
(which means traditional IRA contributions will not be deductible), then you
can still put money into a Roth IRA by contributing after-tax dollars to a
traditional IRA and doing a backdoor Roth conversion[1].

The problem is that when you do one, you pay taxes pro rata on any pre-tax
funds in your IRA. If your 401k is pre-tax dollars (most are), then if you
convert a 401k to an IRA, you will start having to pay taxes every time you
try to do a backdoor Roth.

[1][http://www.rothira.com/what-is-a-backdoor-roth-
ira](http://www.rothira.com/what-is-a-backdoor-roth-ira)

------
codegeek
It's a no-brainer really. Start the 401K asap. It will only help you. Roth is
good as an additional option but regular 401K has lot of benefits including
higher contribution amounts, employer matching benefit (if any) and why pay a
higher tax now than when you will retire since your tax rate will most likely
be lower in retirement. By contributing to a 401K, you reduce your taxable
income for the year as well as an added benefit.

Max out the 401K first before you think of anything else. Who cares if you
change jobs frequently. You can always do a roll over into an IRA with
providers such as Fidelity or Vanguard for free.

~~~
Someone1234
This is great advice.

Just want to tack on for the OP (or anyone else): Look at the fees. The fees
will destroy your retirement. Both the individual fund fees and the account
management fees.

For example on my 401K provider they have funds with fees ranging from 0.19%
(index fund) up to 0.58% (fully managed fund). You'd think that the fully
managed funds outperform the index funds which makes the fees worthwhile, but
actually the reverse is true (that the index funds have outperformed the
managed funds historically).

If you don't manually select which funds to invest in they put a lot of your
money into the more expensive funds.

~~~
codegeek
Yep another great point. There was another thread about funds question
yesterday and I said the same thing. Almost all "managed" funds offered in
retirement plans don't even beat S&P 500. So you are probably better off
putting most of the contribution in an index fund and just enjoy the "meager"
S&P 500 returns. The expense ratio etc. are so much lower for these index
funds.

------
ksherlock
With a 401k, you can contribute up to 18,000 and your employer might match
some amount. That number reduces your current taxable incoming (you pay tax
when you withdraw). It really don't matter how long you're there or how often
you switch jobs because it's your money and you can move it around when you
change jobs.

With a Roth IRA, you can contribute up to $5,500 (depending on your income --
it phases out from $118,000 -- 133,000). You might be too rich to make use of
it. You're taxed on that money now but not when you withdraw.

Indecisive? do both.

You still have another month to contribute to your 2016 Roth IRA, so if you
have the money available, you should do that. (And if you don't have available
money, you should probably just stick to a 401k since it's automatically
withdrawn from your paycheck).

~~~
kspaans
Yup, the employer-matched contributions are free money! You should absolutely
take as much of those as you can. You'll always have access to the 401k
account even if you leave the company. It doesn't matter a whole lot if your
investments are spread across a bunch of different 401k providers/accounts.

~~~
kasey_junk
You should almost always roll your 401k into an ira soon after leaving your
employer.

If your employer goes out of business it can be difficult (read involves the
dept of labor) to get access to your money.

------
slg
Your priority should be to contribute to your 401k up to the max company
match, Roth/IRA up to federal limit (the choice between the two depends on age
and income), then finally 401k up the the limit you are comfortable.

The reasoning for this order is that any company match is free money that you
are leaving the table if you don't contribute. However, many 401ks have
limited investment options, restrict you to a particular bank, and involve
added paperwork when moving jobs. That is why Roth/IRAs come next. However,
those have fairly low limits at $5,500 per year. Therefore if you are planning
to save more you should take advantage of the tax breaks of a 401k before
investing retirement savings in a traditional brokerage account.

------
jrs235
Is a Roth 401k an option through your employer? With a Roth 401k you pay post-
tax so you won't reduce you're taxable income but it will grow and be tax free
when you pull it in retirement. It also allows you to contribute up to $17,500
per year, $12,000 more than a regular Roth IRA.

Edit:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth_401(k)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth_401\(k\))

Edit 2: With my employer, I can elect my contributions to go into a Roth 401k
instead of the regular 401k. They still do a company match, however their
funds I believe have to go into the 401k plan and they need to do some extra
math to determine the correct match amount due to how taxes affect the
amounts.

Edit 3: Because most HNer's have high incomes, it might make more sense to
contribute to a regular 401k and reduce your taxable income today. If you plan
on saving lots of money and remaining in the same or going up in tax bracket
in the future then Roth 401k might make more sense. The question is, do you
think, generally, taxes and tax brackets will go up, down, or stay the same
and how much money do you plan or hope to withdraw from your accounts in
retirement?

Edit 4: I split my and my employer contributions about 50/50 between regular
401k and Roth 401k.

------
praneshp
I like this flowchart [0] I got from r/personalfinance. That subreddit is a
little different from my taste but this is useful. If you are a typical older
Silicon Valley dev (sorry for presuming any part of that), you might not be
eligible for a Roth (without some extra work), so be careful. If you didn't
contribute to an IRA in 2016, you can still do so.

And like the others said, if you have an employer match, definitely max that
part out.

[0] [https://i.imgur.com/1rPEkGQ.png](https://i.imgur.com/1rPEkGQ.png)

~~~
mdeeks
Is there an automated version of this somewhere? I'd love to be able to plug
in my numbers (age, income, expenses, etc) and have recommendations pop out.

------
garethsprice
[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29031758/If%20You%20Can....](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29031758/If%20You%20Can.pdf)
<\- this is a good read on the basics. A target date or low cost index fund
with automatic deductions is a good "fire and forget" strategy. Once you
leave, you can roll it over into your own 401k.

Echoing other comments - at a bare minimum max out your employer match, it's
free money!

~~~
cpete
Yes, thanks for sharing. "If You Can: How Millennials Can Get Rich Slowly" is
a great primer. The author also provides the names of several other books to
read and the order in which to read them. I've learned a lot following his
plan.

------
rajathagasthya
Some great answers here. As a financial noob and only 2 years into his career,
I have a question about Roth vs Traditional for software engineers. Why would
you choose traditional IRA when you expect software engineer salaries to
mostly go up while you advance in your career? I understand Roth IRA has
limited contribution, but what is a good alternative? I see a lot of articles
about this topic on the internet, but I don't see specific advice for folks in
the tech industry.

~~~
Jtsummers
It can be beneficial early on for the tax advantage to increase your net
income for the year, but you'll probably want the Roth later. Also, look into
the Saver's Credit. If your AGI (adjusted gross income) is low enough (easier
if married), you get a percentage of your retirement savings back as a tax
_credit_. Traditional IRA and 401(k) accounts reduce your AGI and make hitting
this mark easier, and increase the tax credit you'll receive.

I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations yesterday. As a single adult
(non-dependent), if you were to max a Traditional IRA, Traditional 401(k), you
could make up to around $70-75k in gross income, and still be able to qualify
for the Saver's Credit. Your AGI after contributions, standard deduction,
personal exemption, and deductions for things like medical insurance premiums,
could reduce your total income to $37k or lower. You'd then get 10% of your
contributions, up to $2000, back as a credit. At ~$37k AGI, your tax burden is
approximately $5k, with the credit, it's approximately $3k (numbers crunched
on excel on another computer, these are estimates from memory).

If you're married the max AGI to qualify for 2017 is $62k. Looking at my tax
forms from early on in my mid career, I definitely could've swung that if I'd
been married and sometimes did (but wasn't married so no credit), and at the
start of my career I could have hit that $37k AGI by making additional
retirement contributions, had I known about it.

~~~
rajathagasthya
Thank you! Learnt a lot from your other comment too. :)

------
mywittyname
Setup the 401k. When you leave, go to Vanguard, set up an account with them
and have your 401k rolled over into your Vanguard account.

From here on out, every time you change jobs, request a 401k rollover into
your Vanguard IRA. This way, you'll only ever have two retirement accounts to
deal with, rather than one for each job.

~~~
jrs235
>This way, you'll only ever have two retirement accounts to deal with, rather
than one for each job.

And due to how most accounts have a flat [annual] fee, you'll likely pay less
in fees.

------
berberous
The comments here are all good, but nothing about this question is specific to
developers. For those who have personal finance questions, I would highly
recommend the Boggleheads wiki and forum:

[https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page](https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page)

[https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php](https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php)

It's filled with the type of thoughtful, over-analytical people that I think
the readership of Hacker News would appreciate.

------
galdosdi
Switching jobs has NOTHING to do with this. (IANAL so maybe there's strange
cases I'm unaware of but...) You can always rollover to a new account, so when
you quit your job, you take your savings with you and can move them into an
account with any broker anywhere.

Start immediately! At the very least, max out the "match" as that is free
money. Look into all the details and conditions of the program.

Your instincts to get this figured out ASAP now are spot on.

~~~
rakmial
This is only half true. 401k matching typically takes time to vest, and you
don't have the same amount of personal control over a 401k. Also, particularly
in tech, if you move from a larger company with 401k to a small company with
no benefits plan in place, you're not going to be able to roll the 401k stuff
into your IRA. Obviously it won't just disappear, but you'll have just leave
it in your previous employer's care.

~~~
galdosdi
I almost mentioned vesting, but decided to summarize as

> Look into all the details and conditions of the program.

Either way, you're not _losing_ money, even if there's a delay in getting the
match.

And IANAL and don't feel like looking it up but IIRC from last time I did it,
I thought it was near universal, or legally required even, to be allowed to
rollover any 401k into an IRA once you are no longer employed. Do you have a
source or personal details on that? This is a major point.

The important thing is nobody with access to a 401k should delay looking into
it by more than a pay period, as they are likely throwing away free money
every pay period that goes by and they don't even look into the details.

------
HeyLaughingBoy
One benefit I haven't seen mentioned is that you can often borrow against a
401k and I don't believe that's as common (impossible?) with an IRA. The
benefit of borrowing against your 401k is that the interest goes back into
your account. The downside is that you have a maximum of five years to repay
it, and of course you're repaying it with after-tax dollars. Unlike a
withdrawal, it's penalty-free.

~~~
rakmial
Roth IRAs can be borrowed against for qualified expenses, like buying a home
or paying for sudden, large medical expenses. There are a bunch of other,
rarer cases too.

------
heavymark
Definitely 401k especially if they offer any sort of matching. Roth's are a
good additional option, especially if you just starting out in a low tax break
and expect to eventually be in a higher tax bracket as you advance through
your career. Roths however have a relatively low limit so many of us cannot
use them once we reach a certainly income level in the 100ks.

------
gsuppy
Not to completely hijack this thread, but is it expected for devs to change
jobs often? Are you a washed out has-been if you've stayed at your current
firm for more than a couple years??

~~~
scarface74
In my experience - most of the time - yes.

I have found the arc of a job to be:

1\. I accept an offer I like based on the environment, the pay, and the
ability to learn new things.

2\. During the first year or two, I'm learning new things about the company,
the industry, the software they are using, and a technology that I've been
wanting to learn.

3\. Usually as I'm learning my market value is out of sync with the menial
raises I'm getting, the company doesn't see a need to keep up to date and the
technology becomes out of date, so the world is leaving me behind.

4\. I start looking at job opportunities, see what I need to learn to be
competitive and start preparing for my next job. This is ususlly a 3-6 month
process.

5\. I start calling recruiters and move to my next job, making significant
more and start over at step 1 until you are at the top of your pay for your
market without having to be promoted above what you like doing.

This usual happens within 2-3 years. I might stick around for 3 just to get
completed vested.

------
compsciphd
So first things. Just like there are traditional and Roth IRAs. there are
traditional and roth 401ks. Same standards apply, traditional 401ks are pre-
tax and you pay income tax on withdrawals, roth 401ks are post tax and you
wont pay tax on withdrawals.

Traditional 401ks can easily be rolled over into traditional 401k (but you
most likely wont want to do this, as I'll get to later) and Roth 401k's can
easily be rolled over into Roth IRAs (no harm in this unless the 401k
custodian has some really good funds available to you).

An important thing to understand about a traditional vs roth calculation is
that when you put money into a traditional 401k/IRA you save at your marginal
rate (vs putting the same money into a Roth). i.e. if your federal rate is 28%
and your state rate is around 10% (say you live in NYC or CA), you save 38%.
In retirement, while you would be paying taxes on the withdrawal, the taxes
will be spread through every bracket, not just your highest hence its very
likely that its going to be less than 38% in total taxes even if tax rates go
up in the future. Further, you can have a significant level of control over
your future taxes as can move to a state that has no taxes in retirement, a
flexibility that you might not have during employment.

If you're single and make over 133K you are ineligible for the Roth in a
normal manner. There's a good chance as a software engineer you'll reach this
level at some point. This is where the "back door" roth contribution comes in
and why I would reccomend not rolling over a traditional 401k into an IRA

There is no income limit on contributing to a traditional IRA (though there
are limits to the "pre-tax benefit", but that and there's no income limit to
convert a traditional IRA into a Roth, you just have to pay taxes on what you
haven't paid taxes on already (i.e. either the pre-tax benefit you got or the
growth since you put it in). This is a free way for those with higher incomes
to gain the benefits of roth contributions (especially as those who are
ineligible to contribute to a Roth are already paying taxes on their
traditional contribution. But this also goes to why you probably don't want to
convert your traditional 401k into a traditional IRA at a later date. It will
prevent you from benefiting from this backdoor contribution mechanism.

So with this said, for me, my 401K is traditional and my main IRA is roth. I
keep one traditional IRA opened to do the backdoor, but as soon as the
contribution clears it is immediately converted into my roth.

This is a lot to take in and its good that you are thinking about these things
today.

------
cornellouis
First thing I want to say is that it's very easy for technical people to frame
this as a technical issue rather than an emotional issue. The evidence is
overwhelming that wealth building is an emotional issue. So if you're not
paying attention to that side of the equation, all this tax stuff really
doesn't matter. I'll get back to this later and explain the four account types
now.

Employer: Traditional 401k (pre tax), Roth 401k (after tax)

Personal: Traditional IRA (pre tax), Roth IRA (after tax)

These are tax designations, not investment types.

Roth means after tax dollars (more money up front). Traditional is pre tax
dollars (you get pay more later). Both _grow_ tax free, but with the
traditional withdrawals count as income so they are taxed according to that
tax year.

401k has a contribution limit is $18k / year. IRA has a contribution limit of
$5500 / year.

$23.5k / year total right now for somebody under 55.

If you make enough / spend little enough that you can put the maximum dollars
under the shelter, my suggestion is to go Roth 401k and Roth IRA or backdoor
IRA. Over a 30 year period, the additional dollars under Roth will make up for
most tax percentage differences, so it's a decent bet. Roth is the best way to
max dollars under the tax shelter, and the tax shelter is hugely profitable.
Also, if you go Roth, your retirement balance will be the real balance, not
some fake number that is still subject to unknown future taxation.

If you can't max the dollars, then it doesn't matter as much if you pick Roth
or Traditional. Yes, you have to make a call about what tax rates will be now
vs. in the future, but how much money you put into the account and if you stay
steady with low cost investments will matter more. So I wouldn't focus on the
tax issue. I'd focus on how you earn enough / spend less to be able to max
both contributions so that the tax issue matters less than the opportunity
cost of having investments outside the tax shelter.

If your employer doesn't offer a retirement plan, you can usually write off a
traditional IRA contribution on your taxes. However, I'd recommend you do a
Roth IRA instead or avoid this writeoff so that you can do the back door roth
mentioned in the next paragraph.

If you make too much for a Roth IRA, you can do a back door roth ira.

Get a tax guy for this. It can get complicated the IRS is a headache. It's
worth it to pay for a tax guy.

Do this by funding a traditional IRA then converting it to a roth IRA. The
conversion has no income limit - that's why this is legally possible. This
gets more complicated if you have traditional IRA money, because they don't
let you pick which dollars you're converting. The cleanest way is to convert
all of the money at once, but you will have a big tax bill if you do this, so
you need the cash saved up OUTSIDE the account. If you pay the taxes with
money from the account, there's no point doing it. When you convert it, it's
counted as income -- you have to pay the taxes at your current tax rate, and
that may bump you into a higher tax bracket, so you might not want to convert
it all at once to avoid those higher taxes. If you know you're going to live
in a lower tax state soon, it is probably wise to wait until you fall under
the tax laws of that state to do the conversion... but remember ,this is most
valuable while you're young, so when I say wait, I mean 2 years, not 20. It
can be a hairy calculation. The taxes you pay are, in effect, shoving more
money under the tax free growth umbrella.

Most 401ks offer mediocre to bad investment options. This sucks, but
contribute anyway b/c the tax shelter is fabulous, and later you'll roll the
money over into an IRA where you can pick good stuff. I suggest go an indexing
route like Betterment.

Allright, so those are the tax mechanics. But they don't matter if you don't
actually save the money, and saving the money is highly dependent on your
emotions and habits.

\- Do you have habits that are coping mechanism connected to spending? \- Are
you surrounded by people in BMWs who make you feel poor? \- Do you regularly
read about investing and spend time planning your investing? \- Do you have a
plan for career advancement? \- Do you have mentors for career advancement? \-
Do you keep a monthly budget and check your spending against your plans? \- Do
you know your retirement date?

I'm asking all these things because they are more important than the
(theoretical) mechanics of the money. Engineers love to believe a spreadsheet
showing how their 30 year 4% mortgage is hedged well against their predicted
8% portfolio to make them an extra $150k over 30 years, but the truth is that
Americans suck at saving and generally don't save, so the hedge never happens
and the spreadsheet was a waste of time. Also, maintaining the mortgage can
put enough pressure on someone that they keep the paycheck instead of starting
a business, so he earned a fraction of what he would have if he'd tried a
startup. The decision to lower financial risk to start a company has a hard-
to-calculate gain. We tend to avoid it and instead focus on things we can
calculate.

If you spend some time reading about personal finance and psych, you can learn
how to be a happier person while spending less, and this will matter more for
your retirement than 401k vs. IRA and Traditional vs Roth.

I recommend you invest some time and money in some good books / audio books.
They will pay themselves back 1000X, literally.

1\. Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover 2\. The Millionaire Nextdoor (and the
Millionaire Mind sometime later) 3\. The Little Book of Common Sense Investing
4\. [http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/) 5\.
[http://earlyretirementextreme.com/](http://earlyretirementextreme.com/) 6\.
Predictably Irrational 7\. The Power of Habit

Of course, tax sheltered retirement accounts aren't the only option planning
for the future. But they are a decent insurance plan. As you read more about
personal finance, you'll see some of the other options for your savings
(education, business), and you'll have to make a call about how you want to
spread your risk. good luck.

------
crispytx
Just contribute however much the company is willing to match.

