
Google's diversity numbers haven't budged, and it just lost its diversity chief - pastalex
https://www.fastcompany.com/3066914/innovation-agents/google-is-struggling-to-hack-techs-diversity-problem
======
fmitchell0
I understand the tendency to conclude 'that is great, but are they qualified
b/c that is what matters' logic. It's something you (especially if you were
educated in America, like me) have to consciously unlearn.

For those that want the science and math behind diverse teams (as I've given
this talk numerous times), there are bunch of links on the last slide of my
deck: [http://slides.com/fmitchell/how-
math#/10](http://slides.com/fmitchell/how-math#/10)

If you want to see the actual talk I gave at O'Reilly, it's here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02HS9wjgfQY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02HS9wjgfQY)

~~~
mixedCase
Hi, I tried to read the two scientific articles present in that list of
sources (the rest is opinion pieces and discussion related to the articles);
unfortunately, the link to the first one (the study) is broken (as well as
some of the others).

As for the second article, please correct me if I am wrong, but from skimming
it I believe that first of all, it speaks of diversity in knowledge and
problem solving approaches, rather than race, gender, age and other
identifying features. In fact it remarks the following:

"The claim that perspectives and heuristics may be influenced by race,
geography, gender, or age has much to recommend it, as does the claim that
perspectives and tools are shaped by experiences, training, and preferences.
However, even when applying our result to those cases when identity diversity
has been shown to correlate with functional diversity, we need to be acutely
aware that identity-diverse groups often have more conflict, more problems
with communication, and less mutual respect and trust among members"

The other problem I see is that this model (from what I gathered) translates
into software development terms as something like: 10 top C# developers are
not necessarily better at writing a C# backend than, say a group of, 5 very
good C# developers, 2 top C developers, 1 very good Python developer and 2 top
Haskell developers. Rather than mix and matching experienced and junior devs
because the juniors are more "diverse" in one aspect; as is encouraged and
practiced by diversity evangelists.

This makes me further cement my position about the diversity question, and
that is to just let people find their vocation on their own; the Internet has
solved information access, we live in mostly free societies and we can learn
on our own. Introduce people to CS? Absolutely. Artificially incentivize
career choice by changing hiring practices? Bad idea.

~~~
fmitchell0
I didn't realize the links had expired.

Here is a page linked to the research and modeling I ascribe in my talk:
[http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/research-2/diversity-r...](http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/research-2/diversity-
research/)

Specifically:

[http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-
content/uploads/sit...](http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-
content/uploads/sites/344/2015/11/jet.pdf)

[http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-
content/uploads/sit...](http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-
content/uploads/sites/344/2015/11/pnas.pdf)

[http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-
content/uploads/sit...](http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-
content/uploads/sites/344/2015/11/signals.pdf)

> it speaks of diversity in knowledge and problem solving approaches, rather
> than race, gender, age and other identifying features

The key piece is how you connect that statement to your next statement of what
defines 'top' and 'very good'. Your heuristic is coding output. Code and
programming has context. In most cases, it's a business context.

The point is value can be derived from experiences uniquely tied to race and
gender, especially given how we're taught race and gender. It often doesn't
coincide with reality.

That intrinsic value, of lived experience, shapes thought. It shapes how
people approach problems. That value has to be tapped. Those evaluating talent
(and its potential) often cannot 'see' why it should be a factor.

This is a limitation of the evaluators' local optima (referenced in the
research).

~~~
facepalm
"The point is value can be derived from experiences uniquely tied to race and
gender, especially given how we're taught race and gender. It often doesn't
coincide with reality."

I can barely understand what you are saying (what does "coincide with reality"
mean? What use is it for a company if it doesn't coincide with reality?), but
perhaps you could clarify it with a couple of examples?

Also, isn't that argument a bit treacherous in that it implies that "diverse"
people are different after all, meaning if they don't get ahead in some
environments it might actually be because of their different ways of thinking,
and not because of bias they face?

Edit: I was asked once in a tech interview to prove the theorem of Pythagoras.
Yesterday I was in a museum for kids that also featured that theorem, so I
feel inspired to use this classical problem:

Could you provide an example on how a woman, a woman of color, a white man, a
black man, a latino, a gay person (or any other "diverse" person you can think
of) would prove that theorem in different ways, unique to their race and
gender?

------
kukac
Maybe they realized that diversity is not the most important thing in the
world. Also all these diversity officers make me cringe.

------
edblarney
To be clear: Google does not have a 'diversity problem'.

They are very diverse, and minorities are well represented as a block.

What they have is a 'not enough Blacks and Latinos' problem.

And - 'not enough Females in management positions' problem, possibly.

The underlying issue which some fail to address is the fact that if you only
have 15% of tech grads female, and 0.1% African American - it's really
difficult to have '50% female coders' or '10% African American coders'.
Actually, I'd argue it's impossible.

A really interesting survey I read saw that Males in the Valley tend to think
that the 'talent pool' is the issue (i.e. as I stated above), but Females tend
to think the big issue is a 'lack of role models'.

Maybe I'm biased being a guy, but I do think that it's primarily the talent
pool issue, but I do concede that 'lack of role models' is probably a concern.

I think that this is a concern, but a soft one, and that if a company like
Google - which is very open minded and progressive struggles with it, well,
it's a tough one to crack. As long as they are trying to make inroads there,
then that's good.

I don't think that we should hold them to any specific standard or shame them.

------
yuhong
The employment anti-discrimination laws was originally designed for manual
labor and similar jobs. I suggest a compromise limiting the kinds of jobs
these laws apply to.

~~~
dragonwriter
> The employment anti-discrimination laws was originally designed for manual
> labor and similar jobs.

No, they weren't. They were designed for all jobs, which weren't just manual
labor then.

Obviously, lots of the jobs people in groups which had been systematically
discriminated against in work, education, and every place else for centuries
were working in or trying to get work in were at or near the bottom of the
prestige and pay heirarchy, and thus manual labor, so certainly a lot of the
early application was there. But nothing about the motivation or design of the
laws was limited to that domain.

~~~
yuhong
Another example is the kinds of statistics that are often used, which tends to
assume large amount of workers being hired for things like manual labor jobs.

------
d33
Are there any papers on what are the effects of diversity to a culture of
programmers? I'd love to once see a scientific approach rather than the
political one.

~~~
mjolk
> I'd love to once see a scientific approach rather than the political one

You're asking a lot from soft science, especially where said effects would be
really hard to measure.

------
blkcod3r
I'm a very qualified blk cod3r that just got turned down for a job at fb. I
thought the interview went well, but I guess the interviewer didn't share that
sentiment. Either way, I'm not mad...so just wanna preempt any attempt to
suggest that we're not being held to the same standards as everybody else...

~~~
blkcod3r
btw, got one lined up at the big G. Wish me luck! :)

~~~
HillaryBriss
good luck. i hope you get the job.

~~~
HillaryBriss
i've received my fair share of down votes in the past and i've learned a bit
about the kinds of statements people disagree strongly with or find
inappropriate.

but now it looks like someone down voted my expression of good luck to a job
seeker!

interesting.

------
PopsiclePete
"Diversify Chief" makes me cringe a bit. Makes me think of the modern-day
version of the "Political Commissar" \- there to make sure that you're always
towing the Party Line.

Not that I'm against diversity or anything, I just don't like how it's
enforced as a goal unto itself.

~~~
matt4077
You'll be horrified to learn that many businesses also have "compliance
officers". Because that sure sounds like an evil plan to enforce newspeak – if
you manage to achieve a certain level of ignorance.

It's also terrible (, terrible) how many companies are wasting money on
"Quality Assurance", "Accounting", or "groundskeeping" when a business should
actually be profit-driven.

If only we could get out from under the yoke of political correctness. We'd
give every employee the title of "profit maker".

~~~
PopsiclePete
"Quality Assurance" and "Accounting" are directly tied to delivery a quality
product or managing money and thus vital to a business. "Compliance officers"
make sure you're not violating laws/trade agreements/what-have-you.

"Diversity" is neither. It's nice to have it, sure, but it cannot be a goal
unto itself.

------
facepalm
A lot of talk is about hiring practices (like blind assessments), or
retention. But that ignores a question that should be easy to answer: are
there a significant number of qualified "diverse" applicants that could be
hired with the right approach?

I seriously doubt any qualified developer would have troubles landing a job,
regardless of race. Therefore I think the talk about hiring practices and
cultural exclusion are misguided. Looking at the pipeline might be more
promising, but it seems even Google can not turn the lives of millions of
people around single-handedly.

~~~
matt4077
The laws don't only apply to hiring (although I believe that, yes, there's
still discrimination going on at the margins). They also apply to salaries,
promotions, workplace policies etc.

~~~
facepalm
I didn't mention any laws. That said, I think the general assumption that
racism must be the reason for unequal outcomes might not be based on reality
in many cases.

------
aeturnum
Apple seems to have pretty decent numbers compared to the rest of the field.
Any insight into how they accomplished that?

~~~
edblarney
Apple also has a massive retail staff and retail organization, and especially
the former group makes it considerably easier to show 'numbers' that are more
'diverse'.

As far as their high-tech and HQ staff, I don't see any reason to believe that
they are materially different from Google or Facebook.

~~~
matt4077
The sector-by-sector statistics are at
[https://www.apple.com/diversity/](https://www.apple.com/diversity/) – scroll
down or search for "Data from the last three years"

------
protomyth
It would be nice to see the diversity reports[1] actually count enrolled
tribal members in the US. California has the second highest count by state in
the US.

1) article mentions [https://hackerlife.co/blog/tech-companies-diversity/San-
Fran...](https://hackerlife.co/blog/tech-companies-diversity/San-Francisco-
Bay-Area-CA)

[edit: downvoted in a diversity thread for asking for more diversity]

------
popobobo
You may look at the percentages of each ethnic groups studying cs or even STEM
before pointing fingers to enterprises. There is no discrimination on choosing
majors. And college kids don't go to classes anyway, no matter how racist your
professors can be.

------
draw_down
I think there is a lot of goodwill and good intentions behind this issue, but
I suspect that our understanding of it is missing something (I don't know
what). And it's pretty obvious that whatever we're trying to do as an industry
isn't working. I expect this state of affairs (industry wanting to do better
but not improving much) to continue until something about this changes
materially.

------
HillaryBriss
Most of the tech giants are right in the middle of California. California has
almost a 50% Latino population, but tech giants have less than a 15% Latino
employee base.

I'm always amazed that California's progressive political leadership isn't
constantly hammering these companies to make their workforce look more like
the California population.

I wonder what would happen if Jerry Brown and Kevin De Leon pulled a Trump on
Google, Apple, Facebook and Uber.

"Hire California Latino workers or we will tax your ass out of existence!!!"

Instead, they turn a blind eye.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I wonder what would happen if Jerry Brown and Kevin De Leon pulled a Trump
> on Google, Apple, Facebook and Uber.

Then the California Republican party would be competitive statewide again
overnight, and/or a lot of tech companies would move out of California,
employing even fewer California Latinos than they do now. Possibly both.

~~~
HillaryBriss
Just to follow up, if I may:

1\. How would your first possible scenario play out in the voter's mind? What
considerations would cause a large number of formerly Democratic voters,
and/or current non-voters, to say, "I'd rather vote for a Republican now."

e.g. Do a lot of voters feel so strongly that Google, Apple, Facebook and Uber
should remain unencumbered by such goals that it would overcome all their
other deeply held objections to Republicans?

Would it just be a deep revulsion to such a Trumpian _method_ applied to large
California companies?

I mean what do you see as the thing large numbers of voters would really
dislike about such a political move?

2\. Alternatively, if a lot of tech companies voluntarily began moving out of
California for this reason, how would they spin it? Surely they would _not_
say, "We're leaving California because we don't want to hire Latinos".

How would they explain such a decision to investors, customers, the general
public?

Thank you, kindly.

