
Tory Boss of Government Coding Education Initiative Can't Code - choult
http://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/02/tory-boss-of-government-coding-education-initiative-cant-code-lottie-dexter/
======
BoppreH
The article makes it sounds like it's a secret and she's disinterested. The
selected quotes make her look like she's underestimating the challenge. But
then you listen to the linked excerpt of interview:

    
    
      - "I'm going to put my cards on the table, Jeremy, I can't code.
        I've committed this year to learning to code, hopefully."
      - "Take a year?"
      - "Well, you can do very little in a very short space of time."
    

"Very little" in a "very short space of time" seems sensible. Her explanation
of what code is:

    
    
      - "Code is the language you use to instruct computers"
    

I find her position reasonable, and don't see what the fuss is all about. If
played well, the "hey, I'm learning to code too!" card could be more valuable
than "you should all learn what I already know".

~~~
gklitt
...and then she said you can learn to TEACH people to code in a day.

I'm sure this person would never claim that someone who can't play the violin
could teach someone to play violin. I don't understand why she thinks coding
is any different.

Also, I found myself getting annoyed at the "building a static website in an
hour" == "coding" = "building Facebook" mentality. It takes more than an hour
to learn how to actually write a simple program, and even more to learn to
build a nontrivial web application.

Then again, I got started with static web dev and ended up becoming a CS
major, so maybe that's an optimistic and accessible way to frame it for
beginners.

~~~
anaphor
To be fair, actually to me it sounded like she meant it would take a day to
teach people who already knew some programming to teach it. That's still kind
of underestimating how hard it is to teach programming though.

~~~
handelaar
And yet she represents a government which won't let anybody teach in a state-
funded school without a postgraduate qualification in teaching that takes at
least a year to obtain.

------
WilliamMayor
I disagree with very little of what she said. OK, so she doesn't know how to
code, she admitted that, and she doesn't know a great deal about technology.
She confuses graphic design and coding at one point.

Here is an MP on Question Time saying all the things I want to say on Question
Time. Coding is a vital skill that our education system is ignoring. Children
that grow up without any idea of how computers work will be disadvantaged. An
economy that has no young work force even introduced to coding will not be
digitally productive.

When I'm trying to sell the "teach children to code" course that I
occasionally run I like to use this metaphor: people that don't know how
computers work to even the most basic level aren't people that don't know how
an internal combustion engine works. They're people that only know how to get
taxis.

So don't hate on this woman (even if she is Tory, even if she does know
powerful people) because she's standing in our corner fighting our fight.

~~~
pessimizer
I'm pretty sure I was taught to code in a day.

    
    
      10 PRINT "HELLO"
      20 GOTO 10
    

My first hack was:

    
    
      10 PRINT "IM A COMPUTER"
      20 GOTO 10
    

Now the system was leaking internal information.

The next 30 years have just been variations on a theme. Spawned Erlang
processes, in my head, are 20 GOTO 10.

edit: The thing that freaks me out about computer illiterate people being in
charge of teaching people computing is that they aren't equipped to choose the
experts to hire. She can only evaluate them by their connections, their
pleasantness, their respect from peers (who also can't be evaluated), and
their _massive marketing budgets_.

~~~
WilliamMayor
I remember hacking

    
    
        print "Hello world!"
    

into

    
    
        print "Hello World!"
    

and crossing my fingers, pressing the button, and being amazed that it worked!
I was convinced that somehow it would be more complicated than that.

~~~
Beliavsky
I wish Guido van Rossum had left well enough alone, so that the above line was
valid code in current Python (it works for Python 2, not Python 3).

------
JazCE
This is essentialy the same as: Minister of health is not a surgeon.

I do think there is actually a need for a political party whose MP's are
actually made up on members of the professions they'll eventually represent
(By which I mean they won't represent the actual industry, but the people, but
you would have a minister of education who has actual practice of being a
teacher or something).

~~~
choult
The Minister of Health doesn't go around stating that every schoolchild should
learn how to operate on people...

~~~
w0utert
>> _The Minister of Health doesn 't go around stating that every schoolchild
should learn how to operate on people..._

Or how it would 'only take a day' to learn how to operate on people, for that
matter.

I'm not so much surprised that someone in her position doesn't know how to
code (she doesnt't have to, really), but at the very least I expect you to
have a basic understanding of the depth and breadth of the topic, and not make
sweeping, distracting and confusing statements like this.

A little preparation, just a few hours of talking to people who are
knowledgeable on the topic, would go a long way not making a fool out of
yourself.

~~~
tragic
>> The Minister of Health doesn't go around stating that every schoolchild
should learn how to operate on people... > Or how it would 'only take a day'
to learn how to operate on people, for that matter.

...Nor does he lack even a layperson's grasp of what surgery is.

I feel rather sorry for her, though - aren't politicians supposed to be
_briefed_ for public appearances nowadays so things like this Just Don't
Happen?

------
cmdkeen
The article is pretty trolling with it's wider commentary about political
placemen. If anything one of the problems the current government has is that
it hasn't been placing those sympathetic to their agenda in wider society.
Gove is currently in trouble because he isn't renewing the contract of someone
he initially appointed. She happens to be a former Labour politician.

I'd be far happier if the technically minded politicians were those holding
schemes like this to account rather than running them. Running a scheme like
this involves lots of skills, none of them technical. She isn't writing the
curriculum, she's navigating it through the corridors of power and dealing
with all the vested interests for and against it.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
Agreed that she doesn't need to be able to code herself (though if you claim
that you can learn it in a day then there is a valid question "why didn't
you") but one of the things that is part of her job is promoting the programme
in a positive way and based on this interview it's hard to say she's doing
that.

In terms of the government placing people sympathetic to it's agenda in wider
society, the role you talk about (the Oftsted role) isn't meant to be a
political role. The head of Ofsted is answerable to whatever party is in power
but isn't part of the government in a party political way.

If you don't do that you end up changing large swathes of the government every
five years or more (it's not like governments don't change tack mid
parliament) which isn't in anyone's interest. These roles should be on
competence rather than political vision.

------
danso
Steve Jobs: [http://www.npr.org/2011/10/06/141115121/steve-jobs-
computer-...](http://www.npr.org/2011/10/06/141115121/steve-jobs-computer-
science-is-a-liberal-art)

> _" In my perspective ... science and computer science is a liberal art, it's
> something everyone should know how to use, at least, and harness in their
> life. It's not something that should be relegated to 5 percent of the
> population over in the corner. It's something that everybody should be
> exposed to and everyone should have mastery of to some extent, and that's
> how we viewed computation and these computation devices."_

Woz:

[http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-never-wrote-
comput...](http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-never-wrote-computer-
code-for-apple-2013-8)

> _Steve didn 't ever code. He wasn't an engineer and he didn't do any
> original design, but he was technical enough to alter and change and add to
> other designs. I did all of the Apple I and Apple ][ myself, including the
> feature choices. I did all of the BASIC myself (it's in handwriting as I
> couldn't afford an assembler). The only person who helped write some of the
> Apple ][ code was Allen Baum, who helped with the 'monitor' program._

------
alexbilbie
What annoys me the most about all of this is that the media and Government are
too focussed on the actual code and not the benefits that come from learning
to code.

By the time these kids are old enough to gets jobs (so in some cases in 10+
years) technology will be even more prevalent in the work place than it is now
and it will penetrate every sector.

If kids start learning to code and making things with computers (whether it's
apps, websites, programming Lego or robots) then they will become more
familiar and comfortable with technology and whilst being able to write a bit
of JavaScript may not directly help you get the dream job as a doctor, but
being able to sit down in front of a new computer system or patient care
device and very quickly learn you way around is a huge benefit to employers -
and that will stem because they're going to have 10 years of being exposed to
different devices, UI paradigms and OSs.

In terms of the code it will hopefully teach the kids some maths skills,
language skills (in terms of learning about syntactical structure and
expressing your instructions), and also learning to fail (which we still see
as a huge negative here in the UK). Of course there are many other benefits
and skills they will pick up too.

A final thing that pisses me off is this "year of code" aspect, it shouldn't
be just one year, it should be tens years of code; the Government should be
shouting about how enriched today's 6 years olds will be when they finally
leave school to work because of a decade of exposure to technology.

</rage>

~~~
vezzy-fnord
_and that will stem because they 're going to have 10 years of being exposed
to different devices, UI paradigms and OSs._

I honestly don't expect the compulsory school system to enact anything nearly
as elaborate as that.

The "learn to code" hysteria is just a desperation move to try and bring back
some legitimacy to an already highly ravaged public school system. At best,
the course will be something like a JavaSchool.

I still find it aggravating that people are for teaching kids to code without
learning system administration first. Knows how to write C# scripts, but can't
use vi to edit a configuration file.

------
Agathos
In business, non-programmers love telling coders what to code, how to code,
and how long it should take. So this may actually provide students excellent
training for the real world.

------
Xophmeister
This may be slightly off-topic (apologies), but what I worry about regarding
this scheme are the people/companies who will be brought in to get schools up
to speed. Call me cynical if you must, but I think, inevitably, they will be
'IT consultants' that maybe know a bit of SQL, but are otherwise shysters.
(That's my impression of the IT consultancy sector in the UK, at least. I'd
love to be proven wrong!)

Most of the current generation of software engineers taught themselves in the
beginning. Or, at least, had enough curiosity and initiative to investigate on
their own volition and/or put themselves in knowledge's way (e.g., set
themselves up for computer science degrees, etc.) Consultants however are
invariably from the world of social engineering, where they get by and succeed
through excessive self-confidence and, if you're lucky, they may have picked
up a technical anecdote here-or-there.

I certainly agree with the sentiment of teaching/introducing proper computer
science and/or software engineering to kids, but I can't help but feel that,
as a government project, it'll be botched by the lowest bidder or brownest
nose.

------
JanezStupar
Am I the only one not seeing anything wrong with what this lady is doing, what
her goals are, what her current knowledge is and with what she said in the
interview?

I must say that I am quite impressed by her and her attitude.

------
Fuxy
And this is a god example of why government is far removed from its citizens.

They all got their gobs through connections not merit. It's like a general who
never fraught a war or ever even went through the training.

------
anaphor
Why can't they just appoint SPJ to lead this? He's already part of the
Computing At Schools (CAS) organization. See:
[http://www.computingatschool.org.uk/index.php?id=about-
us](http://www.computingatschool.org.uk/index.php?id=about-us)

~~~
Moru
Sadly todays employer won't hire a coder from UK. He will hire an app-
developer from Romania and pay them 20% of your salary per hour.

------
jerf
Scarily, she's probably actually... correct. You _can_ teach a teacher how to
teach a student to code in about a day... for the definition of "teach to
code" that they are operating with, which often seems to be "here's a book,
read out of it, grade student submissions if they look sort of like this and
ding them if they don't, now we're going to shove you out the door, good
luck!" I mean, yeah, that probably only takes about a day... after all, you're
a professional teacher with extension training in teaching, surely it wouldn't
take much longer than that or what was all that training _for_?

~~~
dbond
One of my college teachers actually tried this, it did not end well... A
teacher should be a source of qualified help, not just a glorified marking
machine. She also wasn't happy that I made space invaders instead of pong...

------
b43w5
"coding" is becoming a marketing buzzword. It's a shame because there are so
many facets to programming that children could learn that aren't being
emphasised: computer science; web development; UX (I hope this is included
somewhere); etc.

It's great to include it in the curriculum but I'm sure everyone on here
realises that not every child will want to learn it or have the mental
aptitude to learn it, but it should lead to more people understanding (it at
least on some level).

------
MJR
Am I the only one who was confused by the title and thought that the article
was about someone named 'Tory Boss'?

------
logicallee
and Steve Jobs couldn't mill aluminum, even when he championed it for all the
macbook bodies. who cares.

------
utopkara
The problem is, it is very hard to evaluate her success. She needs to know
about coding and computer science overall in addition to being good at policy
making and running government programs to be able to honestly evaluate her
success for herself.

------
TullamoreDude
During my time studying IT I learned that there is just 1 way to learn how to
code(at least for me) and it is "Writing Code". There was no prof who could
teach me coding, but they showed me the baselines(how a OS works, what OOP is,
what UML is and so on). But coding for real I learned because I was parttime
working as a Developer for a company that gave me a chance and time. That's
why I think you shouldnt teach coding in schools you should explain them how
computers work, which technologies are involved and so on.

------
tomasien
That interview is kind of embarrassing, but I think the fact that she can't
code and has committed to learning along with others is perfectly fine. The
tweets comparing learning to layout an HTML website in an hour to learning
complex algorithms in an hour is ridiculous - I learned to make a website in
an hour! Crappy, crappy, CRAPPY website but a website nonetheless!

~~~
mistakoala
That's how my first website started. Nothing much more than an <h1> and a few
<p>s.

I still remember the feeling of almost-elation at seeing it in a browser, too.
That might not mean much to you or anybody else, but to someone learning it
can be an enormous leap.

~~~
tomasien
100% agree. I could basically not fucking believe it.

------
mistakoala
Someone who will have experience of what it's like to learn to code, in charge
of some initiative responsible for encouraging people to learn to code(1)?
Outrageous! I don't want people at the top to have any understanding of the
product they're delivering!

(1) Put aside the semantics argument for the moment.

------
gaius
You can safely ignore people who call it "coding" not "programming". Similarly
ICT vs IT.

~~~
tspiteri
Sure, there is more to "programming" than "coding", but there is also more to
racing than driving and we still call F1 drivers "drivers". And there are very
valid programmers who call it "coding".

------
vinceguidry
People don't seem to understand that political actors simply don't have time
to acquire domain knowledge. If they took that time, it would inevitably come
at the expense of political efficiency.

------
moron4hire
I'm really surprised (though maybe I shouldn't be) at the number of people
here who are conflating "learning to code in an hour" with "learning how to
teach programming in an hour".

If your skill as a programmer were dependent on the skill of your teacher as a
programmer, then we wouldn't be anywhere. If your skill in anything were
dependent on how good your teachers were at the skill itself, rather than at
the skill of teaching, then we would _really_ be a lost society.

I don't think I had a single teacher in high school or a professor in college
that was a better programmer than me, and half of my professors probably
couldn't code beyond the old linked list example they were putting up on the
projector every semester. They didn't teach me how to program. They taught me
how to reason about software.

But that isn't the point. As far as I'm concerned, the act of programming is
unteachable. The physical act of typing characters in a text editor, running
tests on it, and changing some characters with new characters, is all you can
teach, but the mental leaps of figuring out which are the right characters and
tests and changes for the failing tests takes a lifetime of experience and
practice.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a role that a teacher can play to instruct
students during that personal experience. Otherwise, what is the point of art
teachers? It's the same thing, you can't really teach someone to make good
art. You can teach them the mechanics of holding a brush and putting paint on
a canvas, or taking photos, or writing. I've seen dozens of kids spend small
fortunes on art educations at Ivy League schools and they still aren't
artists. Because you can't teach them how to make something have meaning.

And I knew dozens of kids in my own computer science program who spent the
equivalent of a luxury car on a software development education and they still
aren't software developers. Few of us stayed in the field, post-graduation,
and fewer still are any good at it.

The only problem I can foresee with the "Learn To Code" movement is not "not
everyone can learn to code." It's that, having the ability to write text in a
text editor and run a compiler against it, is going to give everyone opinions
on what _software development_ should be, but they will have no experience, no
knowledge of what distinguishes software development from programming. I can
see it reinforcing the asshole manager view "it's just pushing buttons on a
keyboard, what is so hard?" Because "pushing buttons on a keyboard" is all
they are going to teach.

It would be as if we replaced our art classes with paint-by-number sessions.

But, on the other hand, we do force people through art museums and art
appreciation classes and they don't seem to try to tell artists what creating
art should be. Or, at least, not more often than busy-bodies in general try to
tell everyone what to do.

If we could only get rid of the busy-bodies.

------
IE5point5
> Expecting anything less from the tories

~~~
awjr
Sorry but no. This isn't a tory only thing. This is down to the political
system we have that allows people with little experience in a sector to be put
'in charge'.

What I will say is that an expectation to be able to program is not something
I would expect from a career politician. I would expect them to listen to
advice from those that can.

(edit) OK I went and read the article. I take it all back. If you are given a
job, you should at least have a basic understanding of what is involved. :(

------
AdamJBall
Needs someone leading who can code, gets the skills issue and also sees the
impact of technology.

Would be more than happy to put myself forward. (@AdamJBall)

\- Computer Science grad \- Launching a tech startup to help connect
businesses and student coders (@CodingCupboard) \- Passionate about solving
youth unemployment \- No political affiliation \- All round nice guy

~~~
JetSpiegel
\- No political affiliation

Disqualified right there. If you don't care about politics, why should you get
appointed to a political office?

------
altero
But she is a woman! We need more woman who do software development, coding is
irrelevant skill.

