

My thoughts on SF after living here for six months - zoba
http://dzoba.com/thoughts-on-sf-after-six-months/

======
ChuckMcM
I suspect that the quantity of homeless folks in the bay area is due in part
to the weather. It is pretty difficult to die of exposure here given the
relative narrow temperature band we stay in (30 - 95 degrees F with rare
excursions outside that) A warm coat and blanket in the winter, a place of
shade and fresh water in the summer, and you're pretty much protected _from
dying of exposure._

I found the comment about the dirt and the street repair interesting because
I've heard the complaint in reverse, which is that the peninsula / south bay
cities are 'too clean and neat, almost like plastic.' For those people they
were looking for the 'gritty urban appeal' of San Francisco which, as the
author points out, it has in some places.

It is interesting the competing memes about what a high tech utopia should
look like, Blade Runner or Logan's Run? Or somewhere in the middle? I
sometimes wish I could get Californians to have the same courage as the Swiss
do when zoning towns which require only walking. I would love to see one of
the Peninsula cities commit to that, create people mover transport to the
edges and then ban cars in the interior. Imagine that your kids can ride their
bike anywhere in the neighborhood or city and not be threatened by a car on
its way to work? Don't have the stones for it though.

~~~
mapgrep
>I sometimes wish I could get Californians to have the same courage as the
Swiss do when zoning towns which require only walking.

I would settle for just making pedestrian-only some small bits of San
Francisco, ostensibly the most progressive city in the state.

For example: Oh what I wouldn't give to have Third Street shut down from say
Folsom to Market. I walk every day most of the length of Third Street and it
is an automotive hellscape.

Literally six lanes of cars all going in the same direction. And it's anarchy.
At nearly every single light change, someone ends up blocking the intersection
because they tried to make it across with no room. Cars nearly mowing down
pedestrians as they try to turn into parking lot/hotel access roads. Cars
clogging the bus lanes. And the honking, oh the honking.

Just shut it down. From the convention center through Yerba Buena Gardens, the
St Regis, MOMA, all the way to Market. Giant outdoor cafes and restaurants and
biergartens. Some protected dedicated bike lanes. Nice pedestrian paths.
Dedicated spaces for outdoor exhibits from MOMA, the African Diaspora museum
(in the St Regis) and Yerba Buena Center.

Earmark the extra tax increment for something nice, maybe for improving mass
transit, or the police, or the art scene, as penance for taking away the six-
lane artery of transit misery.

Then do it again on some other miserable street. And so on.

~~~
JimboOmega
For those of us who don't have cars, this seems like a great idea (and
honestly, I don't know why they even allow cars on market; as it's set up now,
you already have to turn off every few blocks, even though most people ignore
that and merge into the bus lane in the intersection often enough).

But really, if a road is completely packed with cars, shutting it down is not
going to end the traffic problem. Those cars (and the people in them) have to
go somewhere.

Also, speaking of third street, the new muni line from Powell to the caltrain
station is already costing ~$1B/mile, so expanding such things is not at all
cheap. Or effective, based on ridership estimates.

What might reduce traffic congestion would be throwing up more high rise
buildings so people can live in the city and work near where they live.
Reduced commutes means reduced traffic, reduced rents means less
gentrification in outlying areas...

------
hcatlin
This reads like "I don't like big cities" which is totally fair, but not a
general comparison. To each their own. Dirty, loud, expensive: It's a big
city! I personally love big cities. I grew up in the suburbs, but have chosen
to spend my adult life in Toronto, NYC, London, and SF. I love the kinetic
motion, the bars, the rowdiness, the closeness of social classes, the
camaraderie of being 'miserable'. I love it!

But, I also see how someone who only moved here for a tech job and to be
financially comfortable, who previously lived in a very middle-class suburban
area, wouldn't be totally thrilled. Fair enough! Lots of good jobs in lots of
decent places.

I do want to throw in one small defense item in the middle of SF hating. I
didn't move here because of the tech stuff (which I am a part of) or because
of the weather. I moved here for the crazy, wild, weird city that SF is
without technology. For the hippies, the dropouts, the drag queens, the
commies, the environmentalists, the capitalists, the techies, the artists, ...
the great mashup of people that make up SF as a big and wild city.

Before anyone moves to SF, they should read "Tales of the City" by Armistead
Maupin. If reading that doesn't make you want to immediately move to SF, then
you'd probably do better in some other city with a decent tech scene. Or, as
another reader pointed out, you'd probably be happier in the Valley if you are
looking for a more NC-feel.

PS: the homeless problems being right next to the rich reminds me of the
Settlement Movement of the early 20th century. check it out:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_movement)

------
pla3rhat3r
It always cracks me up that people feel like they NEED to live in SF when they
come there. I lived in the SF Bay Area for most of my life and NEVER felt the
need or desire to live in SF.....at all! There is so much to do in other parts
of the Bay Area that are much more affordable, less filthy, and just overall
better for your sanity.

If you move to the Bay Area and move to SF without looking at other areas then
you have no reason to complain. BART may not be the best thing ever but it is
everywhere. People move to SF for the same reason they buy an iPhone. They
want to fit in. Go to the East Bay, buy an Android phone, and be different.

~~~
xacaxulu
Based on weather and cleanliness, I'd rather live in San Mateo than SF proper.
None of that annoying fog-mist.

~~~
epaladin
I was in SF for Google IO a couple years ago and was somewhat fascinated by
the fog-mist. Also surprised to find that it shows up almost every day. Seems
like a better place to visit than live though. Streetcars are a nice novelty,
but I can't imagine commuting on that every day.

Anyone know if there are there any cities in the US/Europe that are as clean
and convenient (walk-ability and public transport) as Tokyo?

------
saosebastiao
I moved from Cleveland to Seattle, and I would agree with most everything here
(referring to Seattle of course). My only differences would be:

1) It is not as dirty. There is some level of dirtiness, but I found Cleveland
to be much worse.

2) The government here isn't anywhere near as bad as SF or Cleveland. SF is
NIMBY hell with a counter-intuitive positive feedback loop (They won't build,
so they get gentrification, which oddly enough reduces their propensity to
build), and a transit system that is so far gamed in the Transit Union's
advantage that it has stopped functioning for society. Cleveland is playing
the bribe-the-fortune-500 game with tax breaks that they can't afford, and
city services which are mismanaged and underfunded.

Seattle has a nimby problem, a noise problem, and their public transportation
is pretty weak and poorly designed. But I love it here.

~~~
kyleblarson
+1 for Seattle. For the outdoor oriented tech types Seattle is the place to
be. The access to amazing skiing, hiking, climbing, boating, mountain biking
from Seattle cannot be beat. You can work until 5:30 and be skiing powder at
Alpental at 6:30. In the summer you can access world class sport, trad or
bouldering after work, or you can shuttle awesome MTB trails.

------
base698
I too moved from RTP to SF. The two biggest reasons I had a desire to leave NC
were the technical aptitude and proximity to the beautiful places. On the
technical aptitude side, I remember more than one drunken conversation with
Russian nationals about compilers. I remember thinking by the end of the
conversation I was wholly outmatched in technical skill. Seems like more of a
good thing since technical people are celebrated like gods in some areas. I
loved being able to paraglide or ski on the weekends. Having real mountains
that close gives you ample opportunity to do all sorts of things that aren't
possible in other cities. Not to mention the ability to get a good bottle of
wine and drink it on the craggy coast at sunset.

Alas, the dirtiness of the city and production that is getting groceries home
on the MUNI caused my wife and I to relocate to Santa Monica. We're further
away from some of the outside things we like to do, but the day to day quality
of life is 100-fold better.

~~~
jboggan
Three cheers for the tech life in Santa Monica! I also moved here after a
short stint in SF and decided this is a much better life overall. I even have
a nice hill to live on if I want to pretend I'm back in SF. Groundworks is
great coffee, but I will miss Philz.

------
codex
San Francisco is over-hyped, possibly because of the high concentration of
bloggers who live in and around the city. I prefer New York, Chicago, Boston,
and Seattle.

~~~
sargun
The weather really matters to a person like me. I find that in snow, and rain,
I don't get on very well. I tend to get very sick in extremely cold weather,
and my mood isn't great either.

For this reason, London, Boston, Chicago, and New York are effectively ruled
out for me as places to live for a large enough chunk of the year.

I don't really like Seattle very much. Their airport uses TSA. The employers
in the area that are within walking distance of any of the places I would like
to live don't greatly excite me either.

San Francisco meets a lot of special requirements that are hard to meet: -Very
walkable -Decent transportation options (Uber) -Temperate -Good collection of
employers -Empirical data appears to show a great number of interesting people

I don't think I've read a single pro-San Francisco blog, and even if I did,
someone's opinion about San Francisco would only factor into a small part of
my decisions to live here.

~~~
westernmostcoy
> I don't really like Seattle very much. Their airport uses TSA. [..]

So does SFO. Don't all airports in the US use TSA?

Also, literally every other city you mentioned has Uber available. Speaking
specifically to Seattle, we also have Lyft and the other "popular"
transportation-as-an-app services available.

~~~
dh0913
Technically SFO is one of the very few airports (and the largest one I
believe) that contracts out its airport security to a private company. The
company and its operations are regulated by TSA, and for all practical
purposes offers the same experience as any other airport, but the people who
look at your bags and such are not TSA employees.

See: [http://www.flysfo.com/about-sfo/safety-
security](http://www.flysfo.com/about-sfo/safety-security) and
[http://blog.tsa.gov/2010/11/airports-who-opt-out-of-tsa-
scre...](http://blog.tsa.gov/2010/11/airports-who-opt-out-of-tsa-
screening.html)

------
kiral
I've lived in a few tech cities, and SF is pretty high up thee for not
sucking. Lots of jobs if you have skills, areas around the city have less
horrid rent, pretty warm without being too hot, and neat culture.

I'll give a slight edge to Seattle, because I like the geography a bit better.
It's where I'll land next. But for now I've spent half a decade in Boston.
Good .edu jobs, lots of startups, and Pharma jobs too. Nice folks, and living
in Cambridge or Somerville is on the subway and more reasonable for housing
costs. Yes we have snow, but I grew up near Philly, so this doesn't phase me.
I tried NYC and Austin, but too packed (NYC), and too damn hot. (~105 in May
in Austin, and rarely lower...)

------
maxcan
> The government must be terrible. Taxes are very high. Services are terrible
> (particularly bus). The city is gross.

amen brother

~~~
doseofreality
For a city that in theory has everything in the world going for it and an
endless supply of rich people to tax, it must have one of the worst city
governments (albeit most highly paid) in the country.

------
JimboOmega
I moved to the area about six months ago, and after living in Oakland for 3
months, moved to the city.

I'd agree with most of these points (though a lot of the upside, particularly
the huge range of people who are welcomed here, are left out).

I disagree that the transit system is falling apart. The BART strikes were a
huge embarrassment, but all things considered, I haven't felt handicapped not
having a car since I've been here.

Also, after the dirtiness stops bothering you. Ditto on the noise (though I
may be spoiled by an 11th floor apartment).

The rents and the NIMBYism (which does drive up rents) is the worst of any
city in the United States. Certainly in terms of the cost necessary for the
"right to build" _, and as far as rent goes, it 's either SF or NYC.

_(From 2007, but:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/11/a-tale-o...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/11/a-tale-
of-two-town-houses/306334/))

------
baoist
Making friends is what ultimately drove me away from SF. I went in knowing one
person, whom I relied too much on socially. As he and I were both working long
hours, in separate startups, it became more and more difficult to sustain
myself and fulfill that personal need.

I loved the size, the atmosphere of where I was living, the noise, the weather
(MN kills), the amazing coffee and food, and the lack of need for personal
transportation. It was strange in that everyone I met outside of tech was
great, while a majority of those who were I really didn't care for (this is
being kind; although it's not my intent to state that everyone in the SF tech
scene is my enemy). But again, working in a startup, with those expected hours
and meeting deadlines, it would've been borderline impossible.

------
kordless
I love coming into the city, but I choose to live in Moraga because of some of
the reasons you list here. Rent prices out here are actually down a bit from 6
months ago - you can rent a 3br house in Concord for around $2.5K a month.
While that's exceedingly expensive compared to the rest of the US, it puts you
within an hour and some change's striking distance of most Bay destinations,
which can be valuable depending on your skill sets.

Also, it's stunningly gorgeous out here:
[https://plus.google.com/100735767683148801066/posts/Y2ugoKdp...](https://plus.google.com/100735767683148801066/posts/Y2ugoKdpnG4)

------
Apes
Just want to point out that it's not fair to call the government incompetent
here, when the issue is more complex. I see the sidewalks being cleaned every
morning only to be covered in filth again the next day. And it's hard to deal
with the homeless issue when New York is buying bus tickets to San Francisco
to deal with their homeless.

~~~
semmem1
As a NYer, just wondering where you heard this? If true, my opinion of
Bloomberg just went up even more.

~~~
gav
NYC has a program to send homeless people back home with a one-way ticket:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/29/nyregion/29oneway.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/29/nyregion/29oneway.html)

~~~
_delirium
The article makes the program sound reasonably humanitarian, while the initial
description made it sound more like "dump the problem elsewhere". With the
examples of homeless people who had relatives in France or Puerto Rico they
could live with, but they just couldn't afford to get there, buying them plane
tickets seems like an actual solution to the problem that's good for both the
people in question and NYC. And it sounds like it's only done on request, not
some kind of involuntary exile (compare: [http://money.msn.com/now/post--
columbia-sc-to-exile-its-home...](http://money.msn.com/now/post--columbia-sc-
to-exile-its-homeless)).

I have no idea if the article is cherry-picking unrepresentative positive
examples, though. To determine if it's solving or just shifting the problem,
it'd be interesting if there were any statistics on what % of people NYC
bought one-way tickets for were homeless again N months or years afterwards,
vs. in a more stable situation. Admittedly it's probably quite difficult to
collect reliable data on that.

------
forgottenpass
>The government must be terrible. Taxes are very high. Services are terrible
(particularly bus).

Infer about state of gov't, don't bother finding anything out about it let
alone get involved, then griping online? You probably deserve bad government.

~~~
liquidise
6 months residency is more than enough time to become acclimated to the cities
problems and be a champion of fiscally acceptable infrastructure solutions,
right? No. It is not.

The author makes a very fair observation. Side note, the idea that some people
"deserve bad government" is one if the single most ludicrous things i have
ever read on HN

~~~
forgottenpass
_6 months residency is more than enough time to become acclimated to the
cities problems and be a champion of fiscally acceptable infrastructure
solutions, right? No. It is not._

It's not. But it's more than enough time to start investigating local
governance beyond "must be" statements if it is a thing you care about.

------
mojowo11
"Taxes are very high." "Want to clean up areas of the city? Put a cop on every
block!"

Someone elect this guy to city government, he seems to have a unbelievably
solid grasp on the complexities of running a city like San Francisco.

~~~
wtbob
The taxes are very high, and they are mis-spent.

------
daphneokeefe
I don't think we live in the same City. But it's good that you came here to
follow your dream. Life is a buffet -- try a little of everything, and
everywhere, and then move on.

------
justinzollars
In North Carolina the population density is much lower than SF so of course
you are dealing with more pollution.

------
limsup
interesting blog post but could have just been titled: "my thoughts on moving
to a big city"

------
randomguy7788
just moved to SF from Ohio 3 months ago myself and i feel the exact same way
as this guy...(its been more of a positive than a negative for me though)

