
Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K - lleims
http://novobrief.com/spain-trying-push-uber-country-drivers-will-face-fines-e18000/
======
piokoch
As far as I can see, Uber is the problem in countries, where taxi industry is
heavily regularized.

Recently Uber started its operation in Poland, in Warsaw. For 2 days that was
a news, but later nobody paid much attention on it.

In Poland in order to become taxi driver one needs to fulfill a number of
conditions (only people who never comitted a crime are allowed a licence, must
be physically and mentally healthy) a then pass the "city knowladge" exam.
Exam is obligatory only in cites larger then 100K. And that's all.

Due to competition taxi prices are kept on resonable level, so taxi companies
are competing by having nicer cars, being highly available (wating for a taxi
longer then 10 min is unusual), offering loyalty cards, cummulative invoicing
at the end of the month, etc.

Uber can compete with lower prices - they have promised to be 20% cheaper. It
is not clear however cheaper from which price - premium taxi companies (about
60 cents per kilometer) or cheap services (40 cents per kilometer).

There are other questions as well - would Uber be able to provide invoices, if
not, it is not a deal for many people.

Even if I pay less (10% less?), I don't think I will risk riding with someone
who might be totally unfit for the job and does not know city. Plus if
something goes wrong I am not sure how Uber is going to handle that.

So, basically, Uber is one more taxi company out of 25 with fancy way of
calling taxi, so there is no reason for other companies to protest.

~~~
anon1385
When people talk about 'heavy regulation', they don't usually specify what
regulations they are actually talking about. In Germany for example, Uber is
in trouble because they are not ensuring that their drivers are insured (a
normal private car insurance won't cover commercial operation) and not
ensuring that the vehicles have the required level of mechanical safety checks
(commercial vehicles require more regular tests because they do far more
miles).

When you peel away the vague and emotive language of 'heavy regulation' to
look at the actual issues then suddenly things look quite different.

Hands up who on HN thinks filling our roads with uninsured drivers is a good
thing? Hands up who thinks mandatory checks on vehicles brakes and other basic
safety systems is a bad thing? I think I see pg's hand at the back there. But
in general the vast vast majority of people think mandatory insurance is a
good idea. That's why nearly all developed countries require it by law.

Uber don't want to actually come out and say 'our drivers are not insured',
but make no mistake, thats the kind of thing Uber and SV VCs are talking about
when they complain about 'red tape' and 'regulation' and 'lack of
entrepreneurial spirit'. Ignoring insurance laws makes it easier for them to
undercut law abiding and sociably responsible competitors, and they want to
continue to get away with it.

~~~
ekianjo
> Hands up who on HN thinks filling our roads with uninsured drivers is a good
> thing? Hands up who thinks mandatory checks on vehicles brakes and other
> basic safety systems is a bad thing? I think I see pg's hand at the back
> there. But in general the vast vast majority of people think mandatory
> insurance is a good idea. That's why nearly all developed countries require
> it by law.

The thing is that instead of making these things "expected" because of market
forces, imposing it by law makes it a default for everyone and it becomes a
box to tick when you want to operate a taxi, just like many other things. And
you end up with people who simply do not give a shit at all about consumer
experience and providing a good service at all. That's the key difference with
countries were taxis have less regulations: people actually compete on
service, for the benefit of everyone, not just the few who are taxi drivers
and running a monopoly provided by the State.

With this attitude you end up with Taxi drivers who do this job because they
see it as a rent, not as a way to make a difference on the market. Yeah,
that's the spirit!

~~~
pgsandstrom
The thing is that insurances and checks on vehicle brakes are not visible for
the consumer, and so an uninformed consumer won't care about it until an
accident happen. By then, it's too late.

~~~
ekianjo
I was obviously not just referring about insurances/checks, but the whole
regulation package.

------
rmc
> How they will do this in a city with thousands of cars is a different
> question, and authorities haven’t given any details on how they will try to
> find Uber cars in the streets of Madrid.

Easy. Undercover inspectors just book an Uber ride. Soon as they step into the
vehicle, they present ID and fine the driver.

~~~
w1ntermute
I don't think it's that "easy." Uber could easily develop a way to detect such
users and block them.

~~~
onion2k
The authorities wouldn't need to be successful very often. So long as there's
a possibility of a large fine the number of drivers would start to fall. If it
falls to a level where getting an Uber car takes too long the customers will
leave, and then Uber withdraw because they aren't making any money if there
aren't any customers.

If 1% of Uber drivers are fined leads to 50% of drivers being scared away that
could be enough to stop Uber completely.

------
txutxu
Well, a taxi license in Spain costs as much as a good new house.

Maybe even two houses depending on the area.

Historically, people needed to take big credits to start a taxi career.

I'm not sure what is my position, but I've empathy for those who did pay such
license and special insurances.

Also I've empathy for those who want to make use of Uber services.

It's not easy to make justice to all of them at the same time.

I think there are more European countries with the same conflicts regarding
this situation with traditional taxis and Uber. Many disputes, demonstrations
and strikes, all around Europe.

Here in Spanishtan the government has take a position. We can not presume of a
2.0 government, neither about pro technological laws, or pro entrepreneur
laws. Indeed. Is not new for me.

~~~
pron
> Also I've empathy for those who want to make use of Uber services. It's not
> easy to make justice to all of them at the same time.

Well, it depends on your culture and perspective, of course. To me, the answer
is almost always clear and obvious: when there's a conflict between the
worker's happiness and the consumer's happiness, the worker comes first.
Society's role is to ensure its members can make a respectable livelihood --
not to solve every minor inconvenience for those whose comfortable survival is
already guaranteed, or to make their life more "efficient". Of course, if the
rich want to run their lives like well-oiled machines, it's their prerogative,
as long as they don't interfere with society's more important goals.

~~~
_yosefk
You mean typewriter manufacturers should have been kept afloat forever using
taxpayers' funds so as to not fire workers?

(That's what "the worker comes first" despite the consumer not wanting the
product would mean, I think. If not, then the question is where you draw the
line and how you measure the harm done to the average _worker_ when he is
forced to support other workers who are unproductive compared to available
alternatives. For instance, rich people have private cars and sometimes
private drivers and don't need taxis that much. Who needs a taxi? Someone
without a car who needs to quickly get from A to B. Could be a rather poor
chap. Of course, taxis, that regulated brand of public transportation, are
hardly affordable on a regular basis to "poor" people. Whether this helps or
hurts "workers" is not obvious to me. All of which is not to say that I'm "on
Uber's side" or some such, I'm too uninformed to take a side on this one. Just
wondering about your "pro-worker" statement.)

~~~
pron
Common sense and politics[1] usually provide the answer. I'm not talking about
keeping dead industries afloat, but protecting certain necessary ventures
through regulation, to ensure that the workers get compensated fairly for
their required service. It is better to have customers wait another 3 minutes
for a taxi, than taxi drivers not being able to make ends meet. The important
thing to remember is that we aren't supposed to work for the sake of the
economy; the economy is meant to work for us. What that means in practice, is
left for each country, with its own culture and customs, to decide.

[1]: Although I mean politics in its very common denotation (i.e. the work of
politicians, and not "politics of oppression"), it does provide a very good
mechanism for groups to bargain over interests. It doesn't always come up with
the same answer your common sense would give you, but it's sometimes better
(though more annoying): it allows groups to consider various proposals as a
package, rather than fight it out over each one in isolation (e.g. we won't
oppose increase in gas tax if you don't allow unregulated taxi services).

~~~
omonra
But clearly the issue here is not compensation for the workers. The issue is
cost of license. Consider this hypothetical:

1\. Country A - taxi license costs $300,000. Average ride costs $30, driver
keeps $10 after paying off the license mortgage.

2\. Country B - taxi license costs $100. Average ride costs $15, driver keeps
$15 since he doesn't have to pay it off.

~~~
pron
The structure of the arrangement between taxi companies and the government is
different in each area, and is subject both to particular deals struck (and I
don't mean that in a bad way, though sometimes it is) and to whatever extra
safety procedures the government wants to enforce. For example, a country
should be free to require an expensive insurance from taxi drivers, as well as
background checks as means to preventing future costs, or as part of a deal.
Thing is, Travis Kalanick and his ilk are trying to restrict our freedom to
choose what's right for our community, as if there's only one way to run an
economy, and as if they know what it is.

~~~
omonra
Color me cynical, but I think that most of opposition to Uber stems not from
desire for safety but simple desire to protect the incumbent profits.

Moreover - the 'community' isn't really choosing anything. Instead it's some
crony local politicians in the pocket of taxi lobby. If you want to do a
referendum on whether Uber should be operating - I'll agree on the 'community'
stance. Otherwise it's the minority who have the most to lose advocating
against it.

------
pfortuny
You have to bear in mind that Amazon was not in Spain until just a couple of
years ago because you know, the law here is very much pro-publishers. This
move is not a surprise for us Spaniards. A real pity.

On the other hand, taxis here in Spain are nowhere near the chaos they seem to
be in Manhattan or SF. They are usually rather clean (not necessarily shiny
but decently clean) and drivers tend to be agreeable (there are exceptions, as
in everything).

~~~
oldspiceman
Can't agree with your point here. It's extremely common to get ripped off by
taxis in Spain. There is no incentive for them to be agreeable with
foreigners.

~~~
RBerenguel
Not in Barcelona, at least, since fare prices are shown in the windows (IIRC
this is also the norm in the UK, and I thought this was also done Spain-wide,
but it's been a while since I took a taxi outside of Barcelona.) Of course,
nothing prevents the taxi from driving around needlessly. But this can happen
anywhere, Uber or no Uber.

~~~
mithras
When I took a taxi in barcelona the taxi driver held my luggage hostage and
insisted on a flat fee instead of the meter when we arrived at the
destination. I had no working mobile phone so there was not much I could do
but pay him.

An anecdote but I doubt it's the only time that happened.

~~~
RBerenguel
I doubt it too, but in highly regulated places (like Spain is, sadly for many
affairs, luckily for some others) you could just pick the taxi number (they
are always shown outside, license plate would work too) and complain against
the city/company. Losing their mean of living is a pretty scary thing.

As a matter of fact, I've taken 2 taxis in the UK and was scammed in one of
the trips (first one actually), the second one was nice. Shit happens,
everywhere.

------
drKarl
It is indeed true that taxi licenses in Spain are so outrageously expensive
that taxi drivers have to take a mortage big enough to buy a house, to pay for
it.

There are certain industries in Spain which have legal barriers of entrance,
so that it is very difficult for newcomers to get in, such as pharmacies and
taxis. Think of it like a mafia.

That said, it has been proved on a TV programme, that a spanish-looking person
taking a taxi, the taxi took a short route, and a foreign looking person
taking a taxi from the same place to exactly the same destination, the taxi
took a much longer and expensive route.

That said, it is my opinion that taxi driver and truck driver as a career has
its days counted, in the light of innovations such as self driving cars.
Obviously there will be a fierce (and presumably violent) opposition to the
introduction of such disruptive technologies, they will lobby as a group (or
as a mafia) trying to avoid that overtaking the market, but in the end those
technologies will win.

So in the end, it is irrelevant if Uber can or can´t operate now in countries
like Spain, because taxi drivers have no future.

The only hope for smart taxi drivers will be to buy a self-driving car and
operate it 24hours a day (that is, embrace innovation as opposed to resist it,
resistance is futile), while working themselves on something else, or just
enjoying life.

------
bertil
I'm just wondering: facing such explicitly adverse government, what is the
point of trying? Do you think Uber should sit that one out, and wait success
abroad to change people's mind, or have foreign tourists used to Uber beg for
the service to come back?

I can’t imagine a change in public opinion in favor: the country that has
massive official unemployment, systemic black market: the “sharing economy”
cannot be more popular than now. One PR strategy would be to denounce the
undeclared equivalents, drivers who offer rides without any licence or
control; have the obvious accident happen (unceremonious driver, riders
running away) and blow it out with a PR campaign; Uber could then present as
the savior, and an needed control over the unscrupulous drivers and riders.

------
moondowner
I lived in Madrid for some time, and I rarely used taxi (in fact, only in
cases when I needed to get to the airport in late hours).

The public transportation is pretty good, one can get anywhere in Madrid by
using metro.
[http://www.expatica.com/es/essentials_moving_to/essentials/P...](http://www.expatica.com/es/essentials_moving_to/essentials/Public-
transport-in-Spain_15222.html)

------
sergimansilla
I take a fair amount of taxis and Uber. Except on some cases*, my experience
with Uber is always vastly superior than it is with taxis: from the
conversation to cleanliness, efficiency, etc. Specially in Spain.

I agree that Uber needs to have the same fiscal treatment as taxis do, but
making the service illegal is beyond ridiculous, and a very sad way to try to
stifle innovation (which will end up finding its way anyway).

~~~
pron
Why do you think Uber is an "innovation"? It's simply an unregulated, unsafe
and uninsured taxi service. It's just like those illegal scalpers offering
rides in any airport, except with a smartphone app. That's not innovation
(useful and popular taxi apps existed before Uber), and whatever it is, it's
not being stifled. Uber is free to apply for permits just like everyone else.
I think that instead of being sad you should be proud that your country
doesn't automatically adopt any potentially harmful idea that comes from
America.

~~~
raldi
> unsafe and uninsured

What are your citations for those bold claims? The first one is subjective,
and the second one seems objectively false:
[http://blog.uber.com/ridesharinginsurance](http://blog.uber.com/ridesharinginsurance)

~~~
icebraining
That's for UberX in the US, the discussion is about UberPOP in Spain.

~~~
raldi
Okay, do you have any citation for the claim that UberPOP in Spain is unsafe
or uninsured?

This link seems to say that neither of those fears is true for Brussels:
[http://blog.uber.com/uberpopfactsbxl](http://blog.uber.com/uberpopfactsbxl)
... I can't find a similar post for Spain, but then, I'm not the one who bears
the burden of proof.

~~~
icebraining
I'm not either, pron is. I just pointed out that the link didn't apply.

------
santialbo
I don't see what the problem is. In Spain the rule is that you need a taxi
license to be a taxi driver or you'll get fined. Uber pretending they don't
need one is bullshit.

~~~
raldi
Most American cities have that same rule, and yet Uber is legal in them; the
key is how you define "taxi driver".

In most US cities, if you don't pick up strangers holding up their hand on the
sidewalk, you're not considered a taxi, and the rule does not apply.

------
mokkol
People could just order Cabify in Madrid. 100% legal, cheaper than a taxi and
more cars on the street.

------
ivanche
"According to Spanish law, private drivers are not allowed to use their own
cars to provide transportation services for-profit."

I wonder if private drivers are allowed to drive _someone else 'e_ car to
provide such services?

------
forthefuture
I don't want to be a wet blanket, but it seems to me that a better business
model would be to make sure your entire company isn't operating illegally most
places it exists (AirBnB, Uber / Lift).

------
alexperezpaya
I live in Spain. I hate spanish laws. Living here is like living in socialism.
3 months to create your company because of bureaucracy, laws agains Airbnb and
Uber, we want some liberty.

------
jjoergensen
It would be nice to be able to find a "sane" taxi-driver in Spain. Many (most)
of them drive like crazy and they are all listening to very loud football on
the radio.

~~~
MordodeMaru
I believe that's part of their value proposition. I enjoy pulling out from
them how far right-winged they are by throwing out franquist bullshit all the
time. They make my day.

~~~
pantulis
I usually do the same. I wonder if Madrid cab drivers think all their clients
are right wing enthusiasts.

------
luisivan
I live in Madrid and I'm totally ashamed about this.

I used Uber a couple times, the second one this friday, and I friend and I
asked the driver what will he do about the fines that will start happening
this monday. He just said that he will probably stop driving.

I love these new kind of services and this is not the way to boost innovation.

Our politicians are fucking morons.

~~~
ergl
Do you live in the same Madrid as me? I can't figure out what kind of
'innovation' Uber is bringing to the table.

There are plenty of taxis and free services for you to book one, I have never
waited more than 10 minutes to get one, and most drivers are respectful and
will turn the radio off or leave you alone if you say so. You can even ask
them to take a particular route and they won't have any problem in doing so

~~~
luisivan
The innovation is that you don't have to pay 100K in order to be a city driver

------
marknutter
Because the last thing Spain needs is more job opportunities...

~~~
santialbo
Of all the jobs spain needs, taxi drivers is not one of them, that's for sure.

~~~
bottled_poe
That's for the market to decide.

