
Petition: Apple recall and replace defective Macbook Pro keyboard design - jgale
https://www.change.org/p/apple-apple-recall-macbook-pro-w-defective-keyboard-replace-with-different-working-keyboard
======
always_good
My 2017 Macbook Pro is five months old and the A, D, R, and T keys will lift
right off with my fingers as I type.

I looked at them with a magnifying glass. The C-clamps that hold them in
aren't broken. They just are stretched an extra micronanometer such that they
don't hold the spoke anymore. It alone wastes a bunch of my time every minute
as I have to fix the keys as I type a line of code, but the anger it provokes
is even more distracting.

If I could go back in time five month ago, I would've simply bought a Macbook
Air which still has the older keyboard. My previous computer was a 2014
Macbook Air and it's the best computer I've used. The battery lasted longer as
well.

Another surprising quirk of the Macbook Pro is how hot it gets. I can't watch
Netflix with it perched on my belly in bed like I did for three years with my
Air.

It's comical how much I hate this computer. If I wasn't roughing it on minimal
expenses in Mexico, I'd sell it and get a new Air. I'm glad I didn't sell my
old Air because I guarantee inside of three months I'll be using it over this
MBP. It just needs a new battery but there aren't any Apple stores here.

~~~
benguild
I had my E key lift off and just went to the store. They put a new one on.

------
gnicholas
I tried out the MBP keyboard before buying and thought it would be ok.
Unfortunately, the experience of using it for a few minutes in a store is very
different from using it several hours a day. My fingers literally hurt most
days. I cannot believe that "upgrading" to a new computer could be such a big
step backward on this important metric.

~~~
dmitrygr
I was never a keyboard snob. I never owned a mechanical keyboard, and I never
"just had to tell" someone about my new cherry mx pro aqua-purple super keys.
All keyboards seemed passable to me, with no further opinion. The new macbook
(which i was issued at work) is the first time, actually, that I had an
opinion on a keyboard. and it was a distinctively bad one. It was an
interesting realization that one could hate a keyboard. I switched to ASUS
C302CA and the keyboard there is actually nice :)

~~~
stouset
To give a counterpoint, I absolutely love the new keyboard and think it's
objectively one of the best I've ever typed on (sans the arrow keys, which are
a horrible step backward).

That said, I already replaced a machine with this keyboard due to failing keys
and now have a silicone cover over the keyboard of the new one, which
inarguably degrades that experience. I'd rather have an okay keyboard that
works than a fantastic one that doesn't.

------
eecc
I’m holding off an MBP update for as long as possible until Apple: 1. Gets rid
of the touchbar, 2. Fixes that daft keyboard, 3. Slaps Intel and makes them
ship 32GB lpddr4, and an 8 core iWhateger.

~~~
jwilliams
I've owned every single form factor of the MBP. I've loved all of them except
for this latest "touchbar" version. Actually kicking myself for not returning
it straight away.

~~~
lisper
I have a collection of 2014 MBPs because I have a real concern that no one is
ever going to make a computer that good (or even a decent computer) ever
again.

~~~
willtim
My ThinkPad X1 is as good as any generation of MacBook, it is certainly more
serviceable and has a better keyboard. You might prefer MacOS to Linux or
Windows, but I can assure you that there are very decent hardware
alternatives.

~~~
lisper
One of my constraints is that I have to provide IT support for my very non-
technical spouse. That is a very severe constraint. Linux is not an option for
her, and Windows is not really an option for me. That leaves Macs.

~~~
willtim
My wife has a Mac, but when it dies, I'm going to persuade her to try Ubuntu.
She only uses the Mac for Facebook and occasional Word/Excel. I think
LibreOffice and Firefox should have her covered.

~~~
r00fus
Why not Chromebook?

~~~
lisper
Because I don't want to hand over that much control over my life to a large
corporation. (I run my own email server.)

------
pgtruesdell
I've only had a few issues with my 15" 2017 MBP, mostly dust and dirt easily
fixed with compressed air. That said, I never had a problem with any MBP
keyboard before this machine. It seems some people are having way more issues
than others, which speaks of a significant inconsistency in quality and
wear/tear over time.

~~~
leesalminen
It could also be related to how hard users are on their keyboards. I’ve a
couple dozen MBPs deployed ranging from 2014-2017. The keyboards on newer
model don’t seem to pair well with heavy (read: slightly abusive) typists. I
haven’t upgraded mine :).

~~~
pgtruesdell
I've noticed similar trends. With SSDs and all metal designs with very few
moving parts, I would have thought these devices would be much more durable.
Instead, we're breaking the primary input method that used to work reasonably
well. So much for progress...

------
rdsubhas
Good initiative to push Apple. There are around 7k signatures now as its
trending here. Let's assume it gets up to 10-20k over the trending period.

Some X% of the people petitioning there would be actual users of the model in
scope (Macbook Pro 2017 and beyond). And Y% of those people may actually have
this issue.

Problem is, nobody would ever know X and Y, and its really bad to speculate.
It makes the whole petition basically a guessing game.

Realistically speaking, the only outcome would be to force Apple to take note,
or at best issue a statement. Either way, the keyboard is not going away. It
would be announced that it would get "better over time" \- which it would have
anyways. Its hard to do worse than this going by the feedback.

------
llamataboot
I'm currently keeping an 'e' in my clipboard and using paste to type it every
time I need it because my e key is totally broken. i, k and spacebar on the
way out as well...

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tobr
Wow, I had no idea this was such a common issue. That explains my unreliable
left cmd and up arrow keys.

------
alphabettsy
I think emails to Apple would be more effective. Petitions to companies tend
to have a bandwagon effect and seem to be largely ignored, especially by
Apple.

~~~
Apocryphon
I suppose they could sign the petition and link to it in their feedback email
to tim@apple.com

------
jacknews
I agree this keyboard is the worst. I also have aching fingers from using it,
compared to my previous 2013 pro 15", and beloved thinkpads.

I currently have a broken 'S' key (a couple of the very fragile teeny tiny
clips have broken off the keycap) after just a few months - Admittedly, becaue
a liquid spill rendered the 'S' intermittently unresponsive, so I removed the
keycap to clean with alcohol, which did at least fix the contacts, so the key
works, but broke the keycap. Hopefully I can get a replacement keycap to keep
me going until probably the liquid spill (a splash of beer, countered
immediately with turning the laptop off and upside down in front of a fan
overnight etc) starts corroding.

But regardless, the most egregious fault is that the keyboard can't be
replaced without also replacing half the laptop, at excessive cost, not to
mention the affront of having to pay again for the same crappy keyboard.

This is unacceptable, as the keyboard is one of the few moving parts on the
device, and the one most exposed to external dangers.

------
speeq
I'm having issues with my 2015 Macbook Pro display getting weird unremovable
marks and stains from interaction with the keyboard. I hope they'll replace it
for me but these quality issues are really annoying. Here's a (bad) pic to
show what I mean:
[https://i.imgur.com/LIK4qq5.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/LIK4qq5.jpg)

~~~
Kpourdeilami
This is a well known issue and Apple will replace your screen free of charge
when you take it in. The catch is your laptop will be in service for a week or
two which is very annoying if you depend on it for work. You can always buy a
new laptop from them while they repair it and return the purchased laptop to
them once you get your own laptop back

~~~
tomduncalf
Apple refused to replace for this issue for me on my 2013. Claimed I must have
damaged it by applying too much pressure to it in a bag. Did everything I
could including many emails but got nowhere, so if you’re able to offer any
advice or even a case reference or something I could refer to I will
definitely try and get them to repair it again.

Looks like the same might be happening to my six month old MBP, along with the
keyboard going, which I’ve been really careful with, so yeah, Apple laptops
aren’t in my good books right now!

~~~
Kpourdeilami
There's a facebook group [0] that has people in it who have successfully
gotten Apple to change their display for free. Have you tried talking to their
online support? When I did and referenced "Staingate" they told me to bring my
MacBook in and replace it for free.

When I did it, they said they would only do it up until 3 years after the
purchase date of the Macbook but there are people in that Facebook group who
have had theirs changed for free with a little bit of arguing.

0:
[https://web.facebook.com/groups/607572909386595/about/](https://web.facebook.com/groups/607572909386595/about/)

~~~
tomduncalf
Ah this is great, thank you - I didn’t realise there had been a proper recall:
[https://www.cultofmac.com/514741/apple-extends-free-
repair-p...](https://www.cultofmac.com/514741/apple-extends-free-repair-
program-2013-2015-macbook-pro/)

Mine falls within the repair window so I’ll be taking this up with them again.
Thanks

------
mygo
They have a similar design flaw in the 2015 macbook pros.

The keyboard and trackpad will stop working after about a year. It happens
because the trackpad ribbon cable sits on the battery, and as the battery
heats and expands it destroys the ribbon cable. This design flaw was
introduced in the 2015 line.

When you take it to Apple, they say you can either pay $500 to get the
keyboard and trackpad replaced, or pay $100 for them to swap out the ribbon
cable. Mind you, that ribbon cable only costs $10 if you order it online and
swap it out yourself.

Here’s a youtube video that shows how to fix it. It has tens of thousands of
views:

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0AVoXTd-N0Q](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0AVoXTd-N0Q)

And there are tons of these fix-it videos on youtube for this specific issue.
Lots of people are having this same exact problem. Apple does not acknowledge
that this is a problem.

------
tomxor
This one could really do _without_ the special HN apple weighting, I'm sure
there are plenty of HN apple users who would benefit from seeing/signing this.

~~~
lainga
I certainly benfitted from a hearty and possibly-sinister laugh, as the owner
of a T450s.

~~~
tomxor
I don't own one of these either, I pretty much hate the current state of apple
hardware and software, but that doesn't mean I don't have empathy for those
who have essentially been conned by Apple here... don't get me wrong I get a
bit of a sinister grin as I see Apple's shitty tactics fail on them, but
ultimately they screw over people, and this petition is an opportunity to do
right by the people and make Apple pay up.

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DSingularity
Omg please do this Apple. My keyboard sucks and I already sent it in once for
repair. I can’t keep losing my laptop it’s too inconvenient.

------
Kpourdeilami
The 2017 keyboard seems to not have any of those issues. The touchbar can
sometimes be really annoying when I accidentally hit the Siri key when typing
fast.

Overall I prefer my 2017 15" pro to my 2015 one mainly because it is thinner,
supports USB-C charging, and the screen is much much better

~~~
OJFord
> The touchbar can sometimes be really annoying when I accidentally hit the
> Siri key when typing fast.

So disable it?

------
nikolay
I have issues, too, but it's with random keystroke repeats. The fingerprint
button has been making strange noises since I got the brand new MacBook Pro.
I'm hugely disappointed, but Apple is arrogant and won't fix this for us,
though!

------
corywright
I've got a late 2016 MBP and the right command key does not register about
1/10 of the time I press it. I use that key a lot. I'm taking it to the Apple
Store tomorrow to see what they say about it.

~~~
ktsmith
I have a late 2017 MBP and the left command key does not register about 2/3 of
the time unless you press it in exactly the right spot. We've cancelled all
current/future MacBook Pro orders due to problems with the keyboard.

------
HyperTalk2
I wonder if Apple is being subtly sabotaged by competitors who have double
agent employees that wormed their way into Apple and gained access to Tim
Cook's ear.

------
jonbeebe
I own a 15" MacBook Pro 2016 and already this keyboard has given me more
trouble than any other laptop keyboard. Several of the keys are "mushy" and
harder to press than most of the others, and there have been times where a
spec of dust rendered some of the keys temporarily defective. None of the keys
have outright stopped working, and I thankfully haven't run into the double-
keypress issue, so at the moment the mushy keys are not worth risking getting
an even worse keyboard if I were to try to get a replacement before my
warranty expires (I purchased this less than a year ago Apple refurbished).

This petition may not amount to anything, but I'm sure _someone_ in Cupertino
has taken notice. Apple has "we know what's best for our customers, better
than they do" engrained in their culture, and when it comes to design
decisions, _sometimes_ they are right, but I don't see how anyone there could
justify a defective or unreliable (at best) keyboard being the right thing for
any of its customers. You know what would take courage? To publicly
acknowledge the issue and do right by your customers. That takes way more
courage than removing a headphone jack.

Unless a recall actually happens (not likely, but I'm really hoping so), we'll
never know what--if any--kind of impact this petition has had, but I'm hoping
it will cause Apple to (at minimum) go back to the drawing board on this thing
and give us a better keyboard the next time around. They should also expose
the keyboard to more rigorous testing (that includes dust and other air
debris). I just hope the keyboard I have lasts until I'm ready for an upgrade
because I don't see myself spending $700 on a repair when this is already the
most expensive laptop I've ever purchased (and the $700 is a gamble
considering you could get an even worse keyboard).

The sad thing is, back in 2006 I was in the US Military stationed in Baghdad,
and I had with me a cheap $600 Dell laptop. That thing survived sand storms
that would leave the inside of our tent (and all of our belongings) covered in
dust (even with the laptop lid closed and inside of a locker). I highly doubt
this keyboard would have survived that deployment. It's sad that a low-end
DELL computer from 2006 had a keyboard that's more reliable than Apple's top
of the line notebook. If it weren't for macOS, which I love probably more than
Apple does, this whole keyboard saga would have caused me to ditched Apple
laptops and go with Lenovo.

At the time of this writing, 16,778 people have signed the petition. If each
one of those people are a MBP owner, and let's round down the average cost to
$2000, that's $33,556,000. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the 5.8
billion in Mac revenue in Q2; however, the Mac business seems big enough to at
least please the thousands of customers who feel cheated.

------
damon_c
Easiest way for Apple to fix this is to expand the TouchBar thing to handle
the whole keyboard and add some haptics.

Everyone will hate it but... it will be reliable and amazingly thin.

Maybe use too much power?

~~~
dasmoth
Oh, please please please.

If it’s programmable (and they did a decent job of making the touchbar
programmable), it could be an incredible tool. And while getting the haptic
right is probably tough, I wonder if it could be in reach now (I love the
Magic Touchpad 2, and that’s not much smaller than a keyboard. Although
keyboard will need to give some cues as to where the keys “are”...)

The howls of the anti-touchbar crowd would just be the icing on the cake...

~~~
viraptor
With such keyboard you can't rest your hands on the keys anymore. It's not
possible to work that way for any non-trivial time.

~~~
dylan604
this is the biggest muscle memory i've had to fight myself from doing. i never
realized how much time i would rest my fingers on a key in the Fn key row
until the touch bar.

i could not imagine trying to do this for an entire keyboard.

