

Kickstarter Project Pebble Leaves Backers Hanging - jconley
http://www.inc.com/john-mcdermott/kickstarter-pebble-leaves-backers-hanging.html

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lusr
Sensationalism. I backed Pebble ($255) because they had a solid product and
working prototypes. This article (among a number of other "oh noes Kickstarter
will take all our monies" scare-articles doing the rounds lately) misses a
number of key points:

1\. It's a new product and a new team. Delays are a normal part of any
ambitious project and don't necessarily mean the product won't ship.

2\. For instance, consider that forecasted sales determine forecasted
timelines

Their original shipping dates are based on raising a projected $100,000. At
$99 for the cheapest Pebble, one can imagine that their worst case scenario
was to ship roughly 1,000 Pebbles within their original timelines. Their
Kickstarter actually raised over $10.25 million and consequently they are
supposed to ship 85x more Pebbles than that. It's not hard to understand that
such a dramatic difference in actuals vs. forecasts will result in a dramatic
change in shipping time frames.

3\. More importantly, constant communication from the Pebble team shows they
are making steady progress (current backers have until the end of the month to
make their colour selections, and in the past month their team took advantage
of their 70k backers to perform free market research into desired Pebble
colours, which is a wise business decision); I really don't see much to
objectively worry about.

4\. Backers of the project weren't ordering anything, and are naive if they
think they were. Anybody know the Latin for "backer beware"?

~~~
citricsquid
> 4\. Backers of the project weren't ordering anything, and are naive if they
> think they were. Anybody know the Latin for "backer beware"?

Kickstartus misleadum.

Kickstarter does not make it clear that the users are "backing" and that it's
not guaranteed they will deliver. As you can see from the comments mentioned
in the article (and the comments on the Kickstarter "comments" section of the
pebble project) it seems a lot of people think they're pre-ordering and not
"backing".

This is all that Kickstarter includes on the backing page:
<http://i.imgur.com/WQlBU.png>

~~~
mbreese
How is it misleading? It's called a pledge, not a purchase.

From the page: _How do I pledge?_ (It doesn't say: How do I _buy_?)

You pledge because you'd like to see the project exist, not because you need a
watch. It just so happens that if you pledged enough, they would also send you
a watch. I personally never look at the deadlines for Kickstarter projects -
they are at best estimates. I don't know when my Pebble will arrive, but I
know that it will eventually.

All of this hype is way overblown. We're not talking Duke Nukem Forever here.

------
waterlesscloud
If I were in charge of Kickstarter, I'd have an Czar Of Managed Expectations
hired specifically to work with high profile projects.

I'd ask that person to talk to the folks at the big projects on a very regular
basis (at _least_ weekly) and help them manage the expectations of the
backers. I'd advise them on how to update and to keep the communication lines
very very open. I'd use this to apply very light pressure to the projects to
keep things moving and to tell the backers what's happening.

Heck, I'd try to help the big projects hook up with experienced mentors to
help solve their problems.

I'd do this because the entire success of Kickstarter depends on it happening,
and I would under no circumstances leave it to people who hit the KS lottery
to figure it out on their own.

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steve8918
This is the one Kickstarter project that I was really interested in as to how
it turned out.

Going from 1000 watches to 100,000 watches is a huge undertaking, and requires
a lot of special skillsets. 1000 watches you could probably do by yourself
with some friends that you hire, but 100,000 requires a factory, and a whole
different set of skills.

Their product looks really cool and I hope that they succeed, but my
speculation to my friends was that they might be the victim of their own
success. It might be the case that maybe they should have capped their first
set of orders at 1000, and then slowly build out their capacity while learning
from their mistakes, but now with their high-profile Kickstarter campaign and
$12M, people might not give them a second chance if they encounter big
problems.

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petercooper
_Unfortunately, Pebble's 85,000 backers who prepaid for a Pebble have no legal
recourse to receive a refund._

That's not true. In Kickstarter's terms of service it states:

 _Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful
fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot
fulfill._

Now, the tricky part is I don't believe there's a time limitation placed on
this, but jumping up and down the very same month they expected to release is
far from practical. In a year? There's a serious case to answer.

~~~
Smudge
They also say:

 _Kickstarter is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between
any Users, or between Users and any third party. This includes, but is not
limited to, delivery of goods and services, and any other terms, conditions,
warranties, or representations associated with campaigns on the Site._

~~~
petercooper
Sure, and that makes it a lot harder. But it's like the Federal Reserve isn't
responsible if I pay cash for something and a vendor screws me over. The beef
is between customer and vendor.

I don't know about the US, but here in the UK it's not difficult to take
someone to small claims court and this TOS would work pretty well in the
claimant's favor.

------
ghshephard
I find it amazing that people think kickstarter is like Amazon, and talk about
"orders" - the person being interviewed talked about "canceling their order" -
there is a reason why you are considered a "backer" and not a "customer".
Kickstarter backers should fund a project with the understanding they are
trying to encourage people to do cool things, and that their is better than
even chance nothing whatsoever will come of the project. Then, the rare time
that something gets delivered - it is a pleasant surprise. I was shocked when
I actually got an elevation dock that was, if anything, better than what was
described. I really don't think the planetary annihilation guys will be able
to build what they say they are - but wow, if they do, money very, very well
spent...

~~~
elmuchoprez
_Kickstarter backers should fund a project with the understanding they are
trying to encourage people to do cool things, and that their is better than
even chance nothing whatsoever will come of the project. Then, the rare time
that something gets delivered - it is a pleasant surprise._

Maybe that's how people _should_ approach Kickstarted, but that's certainly
not how the majority of Kickstarters projects are presented to their backers.

Almost every funding level I've seen for any project on Kickstarter says, "If
you give $X and we reach the funding goal, you get Y. If you give $X and we
don't reach the funding goal, you get $X back." None of them say, "If you give
$X and we reach the funding goal, you might get Y if it turns out we can come
up with a business plan that fits the amount of money raised."

I agree that Kickstarter isn't Amazon, but they (and the project creators) do
a generally piss poor job of making sure the customers (backers) understand
that going into the project.

~~~
qq66
Yes, the fact that there are so many Kickstarter backers who think they've
"ordered" a watch is completely intentional, and is really the main reason
behind Kickstarter's success. This group of underinformed consumers is the
engine behind Kickstarter, and is a great boon for the successful projects, at
a cost to the people who unwittingly back failed projects.

------
tehdik
This is nothing. The Orbit reached its funding goal in October 2011. Still
haven't received anything, and still no ship date.

Anyone who has worked in hardware knows how incredibly difficult it is. Your
manufacturers will constantly make mistakes which cause unexpected delays.
Give these guys a break.

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/832784035/orbit-a-
swivel...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/832784035/orbit-a-swiveling-
smartphone-suction-mount)

------
telecuda
I backed Zioneyez for $150 on 6/6/11 ($343K Kickstarter) and still don't have
them: [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyeztm-by-
zione...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyeztm-by-zioneyez-hd-
video-recording-glasses-for)

------
gergles
The way to fix this is to do all your "backing" (which is actually pre-
ordering, no matter what clever wordplay KS tries to apply) on an Amex, where
chargebacks are decided by default in your favor and they go after the
merchant on your behalf.

I backed a failed project, where the creator indicated they'd spent the money
on something else (!), and that they weren't going to issue refunds. A
5-minute call to American Express later and I had my money back.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Would be interested in the name of that project, specific examples are much
better than hypotheticals.

------
citricsquid
Their website (getpebble.com) states that they will ship in "early 2013".

~~~
the-kenny
That's for pre-ordered Pebbles, e.g. the "second" charge after all Kickstarter
Bakers got theirs.

------
mb_72
Surely a lot of these problems would be solved by having a 'backing ceiling' -
once this amount is reached, that's it, no more pledges accepted. It seems to
me this would stimulate funding (so people feel they won't 'miss out') and
also avoid the problem where suddenly someone has way more money than they
wanted, and hence has to address production (of physical objects) in a
completely different manner. Sometimes too much money (and hence
responsibility) can be a curse.

~~~
bryanlarsen
Ouya had a ceiling: in the beginning there were a limited number of rewards on
every tier shipping hardware. But most projects would probably do what Ouya
did: keep increasing the ceiling amount, giving the impression of scarcity to
drive demand.

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MrMember
I may be beating a dead horse here, but I anticipate a similar outcome for the
Ouya. Missed ship date after missed ship date.

~~~
patrickaljord
To be fair, Ouya hasn't missed any ship date yet and are backed by real
investors too and a team of industry professionals. Plus their hardware is
pretty common (tegra3+ARM chip). So let's give them a chance for now.

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scdoshi
The fact that people equate a KickStarter backing to a product order is
ridiculous.

When you back a project on KickStarter, you are taking a risk on a team, and
you can't go in with the expectation that all will go according to plan. If
you don;t have the appetite for risk, wait for the post-kickstarter retail
launch.

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marcusf
> "I don't know where I could go and cancel [my order],"

Doesn't that highlight a pretty broad dichotomy between what users are paying
for and what they think they're paying for? As far as my understanding go, you
fund something in the hope for an outcome (a clock, say), you don't place an
order.

~~~
petercooper
_As far as my understanding go, you fund something in the hope for an outcome
(a clock, say), you don't place an order._

Kickstarter's T&Cs clearly set the expectation that you _are_ placing an
order. For example:

 _Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful
fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot
fulfill._

However, the issue is between the customer and the project creator as
Kickstarter conveniently extricates themselves from the situation in the T&Cs
(and chargebacks could be difficult since the payment is going through Amazon
and Kickstarter who may not have violated the contract).

~~~
elmuchoprez
I don't know how long Kickstarter's "hands off" approach will work, even
though I understand why they don't want to get involved.

But if backers start feeling like KS is a place to take money and never
deliver while KS itself turns a blind eye, they'll just slowly bleed
credibility.

But what do I know. People still buy laptops on eBay, they still get scammed,
eBay still refuses to do much about it. eBay still exists.

------
jconley
Expectations. Set them wisely.

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hastur
The title is misleading.

Suggests that there's going to be no Pebbles, while in reality the watches are
seriously delayed.

Cheap link bait.

~~~
pbreit
Well, they're not even delayed yet since the initial _estimate_ was September.

