
Danish researchers finally solve the obesity riddle - chaostheory
http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-danish-obesity-riddle.html
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cmer
Holy cow. It's a small world! One of the main guys behind this is actually a
great friend of mine. I've known him since kindergarten and he's now amongst
the top researchers in the world. I wish I had something to do with it! He
recently moved back to Canada from Copenhagen.

He has no clue what Hacker News is, but I'll email him this thread, perhaps
he'll chime in if any of you have questions.

~~~
niels_olson
Please ask him to do a IamA-AMAA

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hellrich
"randomly assigned to one of five different low-fat diet types" \- so most
combinations weren't tested at all?

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Vivtek
Why in the world is this being downvoted? _All_ of the five combinations they
tested were low-fat. This is actually the point I wanted to make, too.

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Evgeny
Very true, the fist thing I wanted to look for - "how did my favourite high-
fat, low-carb diet rate in this study? Oops, how are the results of any use
then ..."

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sown
Bodybuilders have been saying this for a while. There are always arguments
about thermodynamics and what not, and there is good reason behind those, but
everyone in a gym who builds up a lean body (sans steroids or not) follow a
similar dietary pattern: lean meats, veggies, no flour/sugar/starchy veggies,
etc for cutting and then eating more protein and some complex carbs (like from
potatoes) to build lean mass.

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jpcha57
Prof. Arne Astrup, a colleague of mine, was the principal investigator of this
study when I was in Denmark. Interestingly, I will see him this weekend in
Quebec City for the PhD defense of my wife. I agree with you guys that the
title is too strong and we have to be careful when interpreting studies. Only
few people fully realize that the obesity problem is complex and multifaceted.
Nobody is immune. The causes and paths to weight gain are manifold and a
narrow focus on the Big Two factors (unhealthy diet and physical inactivity)
is not enough. For some people, factors such as short sleep duration, mental
stress, socioeconomic status, drugs, etc. can cause weight gain and thereby
should be included in the big picture. The main problem lies in the current
'obesogenic' environment that encourages overeating and sedentariness, and
people are not able to swim upstream against those strong pressures. A change
in the environment is more than needed at this point, because telling people
to eat less and exercise more does not really work.

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moo
I've thought the argument in "Sugar: The Bitter Truth" is very insightful.
Viewable at <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM>. Pointing out that
the Atkins diet (no carbs, fat okay) and the Japanese diet (mostly carbs, low
fat intake) have in common that they eliminate sugar, the major cause of
obesity.

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chesser
These studies are nutty. You can't separate diet from activity; you can't
treat wide categories of food so indiscriminately; you can't use BMI or weight
instead of body composition, and get definitive results.

Just for example, raw foodists tend to have low-protein diets that may be low
OR high-glycemic index, and tend to be very thin.

Without a comprehensive listing of specific meals, I would guess that people
in certain groups in this study would be much more likely to cheat on their
diets. The selection of low-protein, low-GI foods for most people used to
typical Western diets would lead to very disappointing meals and thus more
cheating over a 6-month period.

Further, gaining a pound of fat over a period of 6 months works out to less
than 20 extra calories _per day_. This is essentially noise. Cheating with 150
extra calories once per week (e.g. a single sugary treat) could account for
this.

Keeping your blood sugar in check is a major factor in preventing binge eating
and fat storage. There are various ways to do this, including low-GI foods,
exercise, and eating small meals frequently. The recent standard for Hollywood
stars and starlets is working with a personal trainer and eating every 2
hours. This helps keep blood sugar steady.

On the flip side, people engaged in sustained cardiovascular exercise _must_
eat high-GI foods or their performance drops. Riders in the Tour de France
chow down on every sugary snack and drink known to man (not just "performance
formulas" of energy bars and drinks), and Michael Phelps eats 12,000 calories
a day while training.

You don't need that level of Herculean effort before this becomes important.
Even if you are completely sedentary, if you are engaged in a mentally taxing
task, your brain is burning through a lot of glucose. Eating sucrose means
half glucose and half fructose, and only the glucose can be metabolized
immediately. Fructose can be stored by the liver and converted, but if the
liver reserves are full (e.g. late in the day, as opposed to waking up from
fasting during sleep), fructose will end up as fat. Fructose has a low
glycemic index, so guess which sugar is more likely to be included in a low-GI
diet. (Glucose is of course used by diabetics in order to raise their blood
sugar quickly. It is also called Dextrose.)

Finally, without body composition analysis, they haven't shown anything about
fat loss. High protein diets require more water to process, and a difference
of a pound or two on a human body can _easily_ be down to differences in fluid
retention. High protein diets can lead to slightly more dehydration.

~~~
niels_olson
Here's the original article.
<http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1007137>.

The study is impressively well done, as are most articles in the New England
Journal. Other researchers will be studying their methods as much as their
results.

> Without a comprehensive listing of specific meals

Actually, they did better and developed local indexes for all foods for each
center and had the patients keep food diaries.

> Further, gaining a pound of fat over a period of 6 months works out to less
> than 20 extra calories per day. This is essentially noise.

First, this is why we enroll more than one patient. The noise averages out.
Two: the unit of measure was kilograms, the average arm gained _more_ than 1
kg. Three, see figure 2B in the article: they quite nicely demonstrate
sufficient granularity to appreciate signal.

> Keeping your blood sugar in check is a major factor in preventing binge
> eating and fat storage

> people engaged in sustained cardiovascular exercise must eat high-GI foods
> or their performance drops

Your liver has glycogen stores on board that will keep your blood sugar rock
steady for the first 20 miles of a marathon. Unless you are exercising at a
heart rate of 160-180 for 2.5 or more hours, this is useless trivia.

> Riders in the Tour de France chow down on every sugary snack and drink known

> Michael Phelps eats 12,000 calories a day while training.

Some of the most over-cited factoids on the Internet. I swam competitively for
7 years and raced bikes competitively for four, and still ride. I'm also a
doctor who spent a fair amount of a surgical internship with the bariatrics
unit. These facts about elite athletes do not bear on anyone who has a BMI of
34 (Patients are generally ineligible for bariatric surgery below a BMI of
35)), the average human, or, almost certainly, you. A far more useful factoid
is that your glycogen stores are depleted overnight, so a 2-3 hour cardio
session in the morning will force you to burn fat. The body has no other
choice. (No, it won't burn muscle).

> if you are completely sedentary, if you are engaged in a mentally taxing
> task, your brain is burning through a lot of glucose

Normal adult human brain uses, 120 g to, maybe, 220 g of glucose per day. At
the outside, that's 750 Calories.

> sucrose means half glucose and half fructose, and only the glucose can be
> metabolized immediately. Fructose can be stored by the liver and converted,
> but if the liver reserves are full (e.g. late in the day, as opposed to
> waking up from fasting during sleep), fructose will end up as fat. Fructose
> has a low glycemic index,

True. Unfortunately, your implicit conclusion . . .

> guess which sugar is more likely to be included in a low-GI diet

Is what? Are you saying they loaded these cats with fructose? If they did,
then these results are even more impressive, because we would expect a high
fructose diet to promote fat gain. Are you saying they loaded them with
glucose? That would make no sense, because glycemic index measures "blood
glucose".

> Finally, without body composition analysis, they haven't shown anything
> about fat loss.

See Table 2 of the study.

~~~
chesser
> _Here's the original
> article.<http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1007137> _

Not available without subscription.

Even so, the media described in the abstract makes no mention of body
composition; without that, there is no way this study can be considered
adequate, let alone "impressively well done".

> _Your liver has glycogen stores on board that will keep your blood sugar
> rock steady_

Your reply is confused. There are two different points that you are
conflating.

One is in regard to keeping blood sugar steady to prevent binging by AVOIDING
high GI foods; the other is performance-related, and the NECESSITY of using
high GI foods in specific instances.

> _for the first 20 miles of a marathon_

All you're saying is that if you carb load in advance, you will have glycogen
until you run out of glycogen.

You're incorrect about "rock steady". Typically, blood sugar will actually
spike at first, as the liver releases glycogen / glucose at the onset of
exercise. And guess what happens following a spike...

> _Unless you are exercising at a heart rate of 160-180 for 2.5 or more hours,
> this is useless trivia._

I specifically mentioned _sustained cardiovascular exercise_ AND the Tour de
France in regard to this. I give specific examples, and you scoff and say it
wouldn't matter -- _unless someone were doing something I specifically
mentioned as an example_. Are you objecting just for the sake of objecting?

By the way, heart rates are generally lower (in the 140 range, not counting
time trials and climbs) and eating is fairly continuous in the TdF.

> _Normal adult human brain uses, 120 g to, maybe, 220 g of glucose per day.
> At the outside, that's 750 Calories._

Is this supposed to be an objection? Also, your math is wrong, unless you're
using some kind of magic low-calorie glucose (220 x 3.81 = 838).

If you're eating sucrose to get glucose, double the calories. That's a lot of
sugar.

Also, things like playing chess or programming all day are a lot more mentally
taxing than "normal" activities.

If you know of studies with either group, I'd love to see them.

> _These facts about elite athletes do not bear on_

You apparently missed where I specifically cited Phelps's _herculean effort_.

The only difference is the scale; I used Phelps as an illustration of what I
stated at the top: _You can't separate diet from activity_. I'm not sure how
you managed to miss every point and misconstrue every example.

> _A far more useful factoid is that your glycogen stores are depleted
> overnight,_

I mentioned this already in passing.

> _so a 2-3 hour cardio session in the morning will force you to burn fat._

Anything increasing metabolic demands will result in increased oxidation of
fatty acids even if you aren't fasted.

> _(No, it won't burn muscle)._

That's sheer nonsense. The body is _already_ in a catabolic state after
fasting, and adding 2-3 hours of cardio will _absolutely_ burn muscle.

> _Are you saying they loaded these cats with fructose?_

Low-protein, low-GI diets can well be high in fructose. Do you have the food
diaries?

> _If they did, then these results are even more impressive, because we would
> expect a high fructose diet to promote fat gain._

They gained weight.

> _First, this is why we enroll more than one patient. The noise averages
> out._

Once again, you missed the point. If a certain diet makes it very likely that
people will cheat, you can end up getting a lot of dropouts (as they did) and
the ones who stay in will be shifted toward the higher end. This makes the
entire result set suspect.

> _Two: the unit of measure was kilograms_

Do you get points now for stating the obvious?

From the article: "The average weight regain among all participants was 0.5
kg". I took the liberty of translating that into about a pound.

> _they quite nicely demonstrate sufficient granularity to appreciate signal_

I already proposed the factor of water retention which would quite plausibly
account for a kilo of difference.

> _See Table 2 of the study._

I can't see it, but I can read the description, if you mean Figure 2:

"Panel B shows the change in weight for each of the dietary groups during the
weight-maintenance intervention, adjusted for body-mass index at
randomization, weight loss during the low-calorie-diet phase, sex, family type
(single-parent family, two-parent family with one parent as participant, or
two-parent family with both parents as participants)"

Absolutely nothing about body composition. It's just weight and BMI. They
don't determine body fat percentage, lean mass, water weight gain.

It's also amusing how all the points got sucked out of my post and went into
yours. I assume people saw _"I'm also a doctor"_ and assumed that an argument
from authority was valid. And you're not even an authority when it comes to
sports medicine, which is the bulk of what I was referring to.

That's pretty disappointing, but I suppose the average reader of HN has even
less knowledge about these things than you. Even so, your reply was obviously
objecting spuriously and the rest was either repeating my points or stating
the obvious. Very weak.

Being a bariatric _intern_ has no bearing on sports medicine; it's practically
the opposite end of the scale. You're concerned with gross measures like BMI.
Do you even care about a _kilo_ of difference on an obese subject? Yet for
this study, with figures that small, body composition is the only way to
figure out if it's relevant. A couple pounds of "weight" is meaningless.

------
nowarninglabel
Calories in - Calories out = calories remaining How is that a riddle?

~~~
fhars
It is also completely irrelevant to the study at hand, as one of the
conclusoins was that the right diet helps without counting calories.

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Mz
I have trouble taking such studies seriously. I have a life-threatening
medical condition which typically causes people to be underweight and I was
quite thin as a child but put on a lot of weight as an adult (probably in part
due to being prescribed steroids for my health issues). After finally getting
an appropriate diagnosis late in life, I did some research and changed my diet
to address my health issues. I have lost several dress sizes, even though that
was not my goal. I was getting plenty of positive male attention when I was a
size 24-26 and my doctor was telling me to work on my health issues and not
worry about my weight (because people like me are typically underweight, which
is more immediately life-threatening than being overweight), so I had no goal
of losing weight. I was just trying to get healthier because I was so sick, on
a lot of medication and miserable.

My experience tends to fly in the face of the pronouncements such studies
make, so I just have a really hard time taking it seriously that you can come
up with a generic suggestion for diet that will work equally well for 6
billion people.

~~~
niels_olson
I applaud you for staying strong throughout your struggle. However, your
exception proves the rule: people who don't have a reason shouldn't be
overweight. Or underweight.

Fight the good fight.

~~~
Mz
I don't see how it proves that at all. Presumably everyone who is overweight
(or underweight) is so for a reason. Given how many people wish they weighed
less and can't seem to make it happen, often in spite of dieting, exercising,
etc, I think something more complicated is going on than these studies assume.

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rubashov
Is this site full of fatties? Why does every diet article shoot to the top?

Gotta be careful if that's the case. Wouldn't want to catch the fat virus here
or anything.

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drdo
Congratulations to these guys for finding out something people have known for
decades.

