
France’s top administrative court overturns burkini ban - okket
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/top-french-court-to-rule-on-legality-of-burkini-bans/2016/08/26/18499b64-6b64-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9_story.html
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slazaro
When I complain about homophobia, I always use the argument that people of the
same gender having sex is something that adults do in their free will and
doesn't affect other people's lives and therefore shouldn't have any laws
against it.

I don't like the concept of women covering themselves like that because of
religion, but I have a hard time thinking it should be banned because of the
argument I just mentioned.

But I still feel this cognitive dissonance inside... It's weird.

~~~
noobermin
I have friends who wear hijab, and for them, it makes them feel modest. I
think the best way I can think about it is if I decide to go out into the
street naked. Sure, my social conditioning has made me feel, well, naked when
I am nude and uncomfortable with the idea of presenting myself nude in public.
In fact, even when I am semi-nude (like I feel my shirt is too short and
exposing my lower back), I am self-concious.

You can be so lib that you argue my discomfort with my nude self is a product
of "repressive" western culture conditioned by Christian values, or you could
just accept that that is my choice and what I feel comfortable with, as long
as my choice doesn't affect you. I think that is fair.

~~~
belorn
Interesting that you say nude, since its is common illegal to be nude on
beaches unless explicitly permitted. If everyone has a right to wear as much
clothing they want so long that choice don't harm anyone else, shouldn't the
opposite clothing choice also be permitted?

~~~
noobermin
You're getting it...not all laws (public indecency) are based in secular
logic, there is a piece of culture in there too. I'd argue secular logic is a
culture too--my personal favorite of them, tbh.

I am not against nude beaches personally.

~~~
belorn
I am actually a bit against nude beaches, as I rather have all beaches have
clothing as the decision of the wearer and not culture. Nude beaches has
always sound a bit like reservations for foreign culture, barely tolerated and
put out of sight.

I would also like to see nudist and Muslims go hand in hand in a common
demonstration against clothing laws. A common demand that society should be
more tolerant to other peoples views and culture, and sign of faith that they
too can do so. In this fantasy, it would mean a end to phobias against other
cultures.

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sheepdestroyer
Instead of forbidding burkinis, a better way to fight against this backward
repressive fashion would be to encourage people to go swimming in the nude.
It's already mostly accepted on french beaches and would be a nice cultural
counter, non violently reclaiming public space from extremists ideologies.

~~~
Grishnakh
That won't "reclaim" the beaches, you'll just have conflicts between the two
groups.

The way to solve it is to make the beaches nude-only. Then no anti-religious
discrimination can be claimed: if they want to swim there, they just have to
shed their clothes, and the rule is the same for everyone. Although, as a very
fair-skinned person, the main problem I'd have with that is sunburn; I already
like to wear a t-shirt at the beach for that reason.

~~~
belorn
Wouldn't the more obvious choice be to have 3 different beaches, one for no
clothes, one for cultural accepted amount of clothes, and one fully clothed.
It would follow the current setup of non-nude and nude beaches, and everyone
could avoid being confronted with situations that they are uncomfortable with.

~~~
Grishnakh
Why should a bunch of religious nuts be entitled to having their own public
beach set aside for them?

If they get the prime section of beach, then everyone else is going to
complain (rightfully) that the religious minority is getting special
privileges.

If they get the crappy section of beach (relative to the nude and normal
beaches), the religious minority is going to complain that they're being
discriminated against.

You can't make a bunch of identical beaches. Beaches are not like software;
you can't endlessly replicate them. Some are better than others, and they're a
limited resource.

And finally, why should the country cater to religious extremists in the first
place?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Confused: currently _all the beaches_ are set aside for the religious nuts -
the Frenchmen who can't abide anyone dressing differently.

~~~
Grishnakh
That's a stupid statement. There's no religion involved there, only culture.
And who are you to tell the people of a whole nation that their culture is
wrong, and that they should abandon it and adopt someone else's culture?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Are they separable in France?

