
Ask HN: Anyone had to repay big tech company their signing bonus? - sanjosethrow
Throwaway for obvious reasons.<p>5 months ago I started a programming job at a big tech firm in Silicon Valley before doing due diligence on the actual work I&#x27;d be doing. The project I&#x27;m on is way overdue, over budget and doomed due to risky technical decisions that haven&#x27;t worked out. I&#x27;ve tried to make the case to start fresh to no avail. My day to day work is an exercise in futility. I spend nearly all day debugging on a 500K code base for a bug ridden project that will likely never ship.<p>I&#x27;d quit tomorrow if it weren&#x27;t for the fact that I received a $35k signing bonus that I&#x27;d have to repay if I did so (my contract states I need to stay 1 year to &quot;earn&quot; the bonus or else pay it back).<p>I have $14k in the bank, $37k in student loan debt remaining so that&#x27;s a big chunk of cash for me. Anyone been in a similar situation? Do big companies expect me to repay the full amount immediately or would they give me a year or two to pay it back?<p>I could stick it out another 7 months to claim the bonus but hate to stay at a place where I feel like things are hopeless and I&#x27;m making no contributions.
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nicholas73
"I could stick it out another 7 months to claim the bonus but hate to stay at
a place where I feel like things are hopeless and I'm making no contributions"

I'm a non-programmer in SV so I'm potentially jealous/out of the loop, but I
will say something no one else here is: Quit being a baby.

Unless you have another bonus offer, giving up on 35k because of your feelings
is a childish move at best. You have 7 freaking months, which is a blip. In
other industries it might take you 7 months just to get another job.

You might think 7 months is a long time if you are just out of school and
still think in semesters. But you will have many more periods that feel this
way, except without a bonus.

Unless you have a legitimately better offer, sack it up and get your bonus. It
won't always be good times.

Edit: I will even go so far as to say that you are lucky the project is
overdue and bloated, because that is the entire reason your bonus exists in
the first place.

~~~
peacemaker
Life is short and precious and you could die tomorrow. 7 months IS a long time
if you are hating every day.

I think you're giving bad advice saying "Quit being a baby". That's the kind
of advice that gets people stuck in crappy jobs their whole life being
unhappy.

The OP needs to get out now before the unhappiness ruins his passion for the
work and potentially his entire career.

~~~
nicholas73
One really needs to consider the probability of dying tomorrow versus the
potential gain of seriously shooting themselves in the foot both financially
and resume-wise. Plus those 7 months aren't just gone - the OP can be
preparing for his next step in the meantime. PLUS, that 35k represents time
you have to spend earning elsewhere.

~~~
peacemaker
Resume-wise he can just not put the position on there, it's easily explained
away by a break traveling/freelancing etc.

As for financially, I agree with you for the most part. I'd still rather take
the hit on the money and get out ASAP, you can always earn more. The best
situation would be another sign-on bonus that paid the original one off - as
long as the new position was good enough to last the year.

But, if he's getting a $35k sign-on bonus he must have quite a good skillset
and be earning a high salary wherever he lands. Paying it off will be
unfortunate but is totally doable.

~~~
nicholas73
I come from another engineering field, so maybe I'm out of the loop. But I've
never had a signing bonus offered, sub-six figure salaries are the norm early
in your career, 6 months job searches are expected, and there is always monkey
work.

How long have you been in industry? Because I'm sure it wasn't always as good
as you and the OP make it sound.

~~~
peacemaker
15 years now and no, back when I started I wouldn't have expected a sign-on
bonus or such a large salary. If you're in one of the major hubs though you
can expect six figures early on, within 2-4 years depending the skillset and
your negotiation abilities.

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davismwfl
I personally never had to pay one back, but had taken a couple in my career
and also was a hiring manager in a couple of firms where we gave these out. I
would agree with hwstar that if no other companies are offering signing
bonuses and you run into one that is it is a good reason to take a closer look
and ask some more questions. That said, back in the dot com boom it wasn't
rare to see almost everyone offering relo and signing bonuses, of course if
you took both the bonus was less.

As for what they expect, in general companies will collect it, but even when
the contract doesn't state it most companies prorate the amount and allow you
to pay it back over a period of time. If you last 6 months you only owe them
50% and if you weren't an ass to them and up front they will generally have no
problem letting you pay it back over time. There are horror stories about
companies that don't do any of that and if you leave 1 day early they want it
all back immediately, but I think that is uncommon.

Personally, if you are reasonably fresh out of school (1-2 years), I say stick
it out and use it as time to learn. At least stick it out for a few more
months, it will lower the amount you owe and also let you get some more
experience. I really wish someone would have given me that advice on a couple
of projects I bailed on early in my career, I would've learned more early on
that way which would've made me better faster. A lot of times it looks like a
project will never ship, but in reality you'll find as money keeps flying out
the door projects start getting discipline fast and cut things out etc just to
ship. Not always, but it is interesting to see nonetheless and you can learn
some good stuff from either outcome, even if it is just how better to evaluate
your next employer or project.

------
peacemaker
I was in almost the same situation as you a while ago, though the sign-on
bonus was slightly less than yours it was still a large chunk to just pay
back.

In the end, I couldn't stand being at the job another 8+ months and so left
and negotiated a repayment agreement with them. They weren't so happy about
that and wanted to add interest, fees and so on but after I explained that
they could accept the monthly repayments OR basically get nothing and go
through a long drawn-out legal process to try and reclaim some of it they
reconsidered.

The sign-on bonus is a tiny fraction of their profits but if you owe it then
it is only fair to pay it back, especially if agreed to in a written contract.

For my situation, I appealed to the fact that I spent a portion of the sign-on
bonus in order to relocate and get my life setup for this new job and so it
wasn't such an easy thing to pay back in one go. You're not going to win any
friends by leaving so soon anyway so my advice would be to arrange a payment
plan, explain that the job just isn't what you're looking for and leave as
soon as you find another position you like. If the new position has a sign-on
bonus too even better but be careful of the same thing happening again.

------
shoo
It might be a good idea to be interviewing / investigating what alternatives
are available to you. You may end up with a job offer & signing bonus for
another firm with a more plausible project!

On the other hand, let's assume that the project is indeed doomed and that you
decide to stay for the next seven months. You are clearly not responsible for
the success or failure of the project [1]. Perhaps you might be able to get
something positive out of the experience (apart from the pile of money,
obviously) if you look at things in another way. Some ideas:

* are there useful things you can still learn from this workplace / project / your fellow co-workers? (if so, getting paid good money to learn is a pretty good deal!)

* is there an opportunity to push for some kind of development process improvement / large-scale refactoring on such a large, troubled codebase, to make things incrementally better? (this experience could be quite valuable)

* do you have ownership of / responsibility for some smaller thing that could potentially make a good item on your resume?

* can you move sideways within the firm to another project?

* are there other ways that you can contribute, aside from toward the project? e.g. instead of focusing on helping the project, can you instead focus on helping your coworkers?

* work your hours, do it for the money, instead focus on improving and enjoying the non-work aspects of your life [2].

[1][2] i am projecting: i suggest it is healthy not to tie your self-worth to
the project you are working on. you probably don't do this anyhow!

~~~
sanjosethrow
Thanks! These are all great ideas for better ways to look at my situation.
This is why I love HN!

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hwstar
Sounds like the company you went to work for knew exactly what they were
doing. This sort of reminds me of the scene in Betelgeuse where the candy bar
was dangled and drew the fly in.

At this point it may be time to have a lawyer go over the contract to see if
there is any way out. If not, you'll have to stick it out and make the best of
a bad situation.

Signing bonuses can be a big red flag, especially in a situation where
everyone is not offering them.

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logfromblammo
Signing bonus? What's that?

You have an actual contract?

Be glad you have this problem. Plenty of people would love to get a $35k check
just for showing up on the first day, and have an actual employment contract,
with terms and clauses and everything.

Just chalk it up to the price of your education, and spend the next 7 months
finding a better job.

If worse comes to worst, it seems like you could roll your judgment-attachable
assets onto the student loan and declare bankruptcy. But that might land you
on some form of employment blacklist.

------
idunno246
Yes I have - had some number of months to give them a check. It sounds like
you didn't cross a tax year - this is good, as it will be on one w2, and
generally simplifies the tax situation. They might only ask for the post tax
amount. I used it in negotiating - in order to accept the new job i needed
cash to cover the repayment.

However, I'd try to think a lot about shoo's response.

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sjg007
Stick it out. Make a contribution. And if not, what industry in tech are you
in.. I want that signing bonus.

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throwawayme2
Really want to be helpful but you're coming off as such an entitled, whiny
little bitch.

35 grand up front for doing nothing but signing a contract? You could have
been sewing soccer balls since the age of nine. Suck it up buttercup.

------
svisser
Does the contract say anything regarding how the money would have to be paid
back?

~~~
sanjosethrow
No. It's very clear that it has to be paid back but there's nothing about how
that would work. In another place it says the company will subtract any monies
owed from my final paycheck but clearly that wouldn't cover close to $35k.

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rhapsodic
As a rule of thumb, you should assume that any contract you sign is legally
enforceable, and the other party will enforce it to their maximum benefit. If
you can't accept that, then don't sign the contract.

IANAL, but I would surmise that in the absence of explicit repayment terms
(timeframe, pro rata, etc.) you would owe them the full bonus amount on the
day you ceased to be their employee.

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GFK_of_xmaspast
You're apparently fresh out of school, nobody's going to listen to you when
you tell them what they're doing wrong.

------
codeonfire
I for one think companies need to be taught a lesson for giving paycheck
advances and calling it a bonus. You have been given an interest free,
unsecured loan with no minimum payment and unspecified term. So, just pay it
back at your leisure. One dollar per year.

~~~
codeonfire
No bonus should ever have to be paid back. If you have to pay it back it is a
loan or prepaid work. Signing bonuses should be a reward for agreeing to start
work, not work for a year. If $35k is too much for that, then don't pay $35k,
pay $5k or zero. If you want someone to stay a year, pay a one year $35k
bonus. The only reason these repayment agreements exist is because the company
expects employees to go underwater and be trapped at their company. How does
that make good employment policy to have people forced to work at your
company?

~~~
danieltillett
I think life is a bit more complex than this. There is good reasons for having
a signing bonus be repaid if the recipient leaves within the stated time
period, but it should be set at a level that make the person think twice about
leaving, but not not so high that the person is handcuffed to the job. It
sounds like $35K was too high and maybe a number around $10K would have been a
better fit.

I am surprised anyone would spend a signing bonus until they are sure they
wanted to work at the company that had given it to them. Keep the money safe
until you are sure you want to stay.

~~~
codeonfire
Well, people starting a job often have a large number of expenses and have
probably gone a few months without income and have a few catastrophes they
pushed back a few weeks. Yeah it's nice not to live paycheck to paycheck but
even a large number of businesses could not go a significant amount of time
with no cash flow.

~~~
danieltillett
Well if you have no choice then you don’t have a choice :)

It is still a very good idea to save as absolutely as much as you can until
you know you want to stay.

