
28% of Europeans Can't Afford a 1 Week Annual Holiday - infodocket
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/EDN-20190731-1
======
Ayesh
A vague statement. For the expense of staying in a private room and eating out
for 2 days in Amsterdam, you can spend a week in Croatia.

This, and the popular news heading you see about Americans not having enough
savings are all meaningless. I find the Big Mac index to quite useful. I'm
working on a new web site that we try to list a similar a metric
(affordability of traveling to each country, factored by the traveler return
rate, etc). Comparing EU with countries like Sweden, the Netherlands, France,
etc vs Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, is orange vs apples.

~~~
cheeze
> and the popular news heading you see about Americans not having enough
> savings are all meaningless

What? How is it meaningless at all? Because other countries are cheaper?

Edit: To elaborate (since OP hasn't responded yet)... Implying that it means
nothing to have no savings because other countries is IMO just wrong. Moving
to another country (especially from the states) is difficult and _incredibly
expensive_. It's the same argument for within the states. "Well why don't you
just move to somewhere cheaper?"

Because moving is super expensive and if you have no money, and no savings,
how are you going to move?

Just pack up all your shit and move to Mexico, right?

~~~
londons_explore
> if you have no money, and no savings, how are you going to move?

If you have no money, and no savings, you probably have nearly no stuff too.
That means, if you can get a days work at minimum wage, you can afford the
cheapest bus trip to almost anywhere on the same continent.

If you want less risk, and can get 3 days work at minimum wage, you can afford
a return bus trip incase you can't find work at the destination.

People don't move because they don't want to lose friends and family, not
because they can't afford to.

~~~
rovolo
Family and friends are a part of affordability. They can provide housing,
food, childcare.

Also, how long do you expect it would take to find a job in a new place? You'd
need to cover living expenses until your first paycheck, which is an extra 2
weeks after you've successfully found a job.

~~~
londons_explore
The kind of job that people new-in-town-with-no-money get typically pay cash.

Being a cleaner for example, garden work, etc. That sort of job you can knock
on doors and get there and then, and be paid for 3-4 hours each time. You can
probably earn enough to pay for food in the first week (while sleeping under a
bridge), and food and a hostel the 2nd week. Proper housing is far harder to
get, because it typically requires a big deposit and proof of employment.

------
gregoryexe
FTA: "it is estimated that 28.3% of the EU population aged 16 or over could
not afford a one-week annual holiday away from home in 2018"

Surely including 16 year olds is skewing these numbers.

~~~
refurb
That's true of most of the stats you see.

For example looking at incomes. If you're a college kid making $5K over the
summer, you're counted as being below the poverty level.

~~~
mrweasel
Except if you're Danish, students are always excluded when counting who's poor
or not. Technically students are poor (mostly), but it's viewed a temporary,
and therefore they're not included.

------
loblollyboy
1\. When I was 16 I couldn't afford a slurpee at 7-11

2\. I had to stay in the UK (London) for weeks a few times (looking for work)
and you can stay in a hostel for around 20 pounds a night, get a boris
bike/bus or walk for like 5 a day and shitty food for less than 10 a day. Not
exactly a 'fun vacation' but it's also one of the most expensive cities in the
world.

3\. What an arbitrary unit to measure wealth in. That's like asking how many
pairs of jeans can you afford - well, are they from the thrift store or are
they from the Armani Exchange?

~~~
fapjacks
Well, I'd say anybody that can't find a fun vacation staying at a hostel in
Europe and walking around the middle of pretty much any city must surely have
no imagination and/or also hate life in general.

~~~
xamuel
Seriously, hostels are the most fun way to visit any first-world country (if
you're young, at least). Meet new people every day, with an obvious instant
common topic to talk about. Super easy to schedule ad hoc adventures with your
fellow hostellers.

As compared to a hotel, which will generally be just like every other hotel in
the entire world, and you might as well have just gone to a hotel in your home
city. Or the usual tourist traps, where you'll compete with a giant mob of
people too busy checking off items on their checklists to chat or adventure.

The only way a non-hostel vacation makes any sense is if your #1 goal is to
post selfies to make yourself look rich and successful.

~~~
thfuran
>As compared to a hotel, which will generally be just like every other hotel
in the entire world, and you might as well have just gone to a hotel in your
home city.

What? If I'm trying to see the Louvre, a hotel in Paris is hardly
interchangeable with one in, say, Chicago.

>The only way a non-hostel vacation makes any sense is if your #1 goal is to
post selfies to make yourself look rich and successful

Or really any goal that isn't "hang out with strangers and sleep in
uncomfortable beds".

You seem unreasonably certain that what you want is the only thing any
sensible person could possibly want, which is utter nonsense.

------
fencepost
Or conversely, "Nearly 72% of Europeans can afford a week long away vacation,
up from only 60% six years ago."

In the US I suspect it's more like "[some percentage] of Americans can't
afford to miss a week of work."

I intentionally avoided the 40% stat tempting because of the assorted '$400
unexpected expense' stories because as Bloomberg and others note it's
partially due to sloppy reading of statistics.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-40...](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-400-emergency-
expense-story-is-wrong)

------
kartan
> could not afford a one-week annual holiday __away from home __

You get in Europe around one month of paid vacation time. What people can 't
afford is to travel. The title of the article misses that point, but, it's
clear in the article itself.

I'm surprised that Italy, 44%, is in such a bad position. Worse than Poland
(35%).

~~~
anticristi
I can't express how much the association between "not travelling" and poverty
angers me. (Greta, help me here.)

Some people choose to live in a stressless small town, work less, commute by
bike, pick up their kids from daycare earlier and have a great time gardening
at home. If your surrounding already feels like holidays, why the heck would
you get your ass stuck in traffic or a narrow cylinder?

Oh right, talking about the horror of being stuck in an airplane for 15
minutes makes a better story when returning to work.

~~~
zokier
But the study did not ask how many traveled for holiday. It studied how many
could afford to do so, regardless if they actually traveled or wanted to
travel.

~~~
anticristi
So 28% of Europeans either (a) have little disposable income although they
work hard, or (b) do not buy into consumerism and minimize working time. (a)
is a problem we should fix, (b) is a very healthy lifestyle, both for oneself
and the planet.

We are giving no indication how large is (a) and (b), but the tone of the
article wants us to believe there is problem.

Why not look at more important stuff like: do you have decent living
conditions, enough space, fresh air to breathe, good teeth, respectful working
condition? Oh right, fixing air quality in Paris is more challenging than
sending people away for a week.

------
alehul
While studies like this are valuable, it's important to always consider
context around data; highly recommend this article that explains why we should
be skeptical [1].

In this case, the data is given to Eurostat by EU member states, who
presumably collect income data for the purpose of taxation. This can create an
inherent issue, as nobody would overstate their income, but many people would
understate their income.

As a result, the percentage of Europeans who can't afford a 1 week annual
holiday is likely lower. "By how much" is hard to tell, but it would be
interesting to see if there's any anonymous income data collected for non-
taxation purposes, from which we may get more accurate answers.

[1] [https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-data-is-
neve...](https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-data-is-never-raw)

~~~
zokier
The data is collected with questionnaires; I checked one of them and it had
literally the question "Could you afford a week’s annual holiday away from
home? Yes/No"

------
makerofspoons
I'm not sure not being able to afford a holiday away from home is such a bad
thing- a staycation is much easier on the environment, not to mention the
wallet. One does not need to travel away from one's home to relax and
recharge, and requires no burning of fuel on trains or airplanes.

~~~
AstralStorm
Vacation is probably mostly tired to short term rental costs, or price of a
mobile home, or if you prefer camping, a camping place.

If you limit yourself to 3+ star hotels it will be interesting, but not
enlightening.

------
swongel
What does afford mean in this context? Does it mean people self-report that
they can't afford to go on holiday or does it mean they did not go last time
or is it a function of disposable income?

Without knowing the methodology this statistic isn't really that useful at
all.

~~~
zokier
> Does it mean people self-report that they can't afford to go on holiday

Yes. See page 4 on this pdf

[https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Hous...](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Household+data+-+Material+deprivation.pdf/5f81bcd6-8b37-498b-ab06-b53b43d2bb87)

(linked in [https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/income-and-living-
conditio...](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/income-and-living-
conditions/methodology))

------
tempsy
The American reward credit card "game" has made it really easy to travel at
near zero cost. Since 2012 I've applied for, on average, about 5-10 new
cards/year that come with extremely generous hotel, airline point, and travel
cash rewards. I've taken international first/business class many times for
free and stayed in very nice hotels that can average $500/night+. I seriously
can't remember the last time I paid for a flight or hotel unless it was a very
good deal.

The US is different in a lot of ways, but the insane generosity of rewards
credit cards over the past 8 years or so (post recession) is something to
behold. I can't imagine it will last forever, but grateful I've caught it as a
young adult.

~~~
phil248
A household must first have the disposable income to utilize those types of
cards in order to get the rewards, which makes your plan a complete non-
starter for millions of Americans. Not to mention the required level of
organization and financial savvy required to not let that type of credit card
wheeling and dealing bite you in the ass.

~~~
Excel_Wizard
As another credit card churner, there are a couple of notes I can add: 1\.
Always pay your card in full on time.

2\. Signup bonuses are the only aspect of churning that is worth it to most
people. If you can manage to spend $3000 on a credit card in 3 months, you can
get signup bonuses that are definitely worth your time. $4000 or $5000 levels
in 3 months exist as well and are better. Typical signup bonuses can be worth
$500 at the $3000 level, representing a 16% discount on everything you buy.

3\. You can pay your federal taxes on a credit card for a 2% surcharge, and
most state taxes as well for a similar charge. This is best done as estimated
quarterly taxes. Minimize your withholding at work to maximize the value of
this. You can pay your utility bills ahead of time for free as well.

4\. If you don't go for airline miles, the other option is cash back rewards.

5\. An easy way to keep track of the cards: every time you apply for a card,
take screenshots of the date and bonus criteria from the signup website. Save
this in a google drive folder with the date in YYYY-MM-DD as the start of the
folder name. Now you can easily track cards by date, and cancel them as
needed.

Well now I hope I've made a few people a bit more savvy.

~~~
matthewbauer
It's hard for me to believe (3) could be worth it. Do any cards give more than
2% in cashback?

~~~
snuxoll
This is about churning, not regular rewards. Sign up for a new card, pay taxes
on it among other things to meet the spending requirement for the signup
bonus, get “free” $$$ for things you have to spend anyway.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
Except you don't get “free” $$$ for things you have to spend anyway...

You get points you can use for vacation or travel.

If you NEED to vacation or travel, it IS simply a smart transaction. But if
you weren't spending money on travel before than it can still result in
increased expenditure even if managed perfectly.

------
teunispeters
I don't know anyone who can afford a week annual holiday, I think... (Canada)

... or the people I know who can afford it probably are paid WAY above the
"top 10%" income earners here.

~~~
greenshackle2
That sounds very strange to me, I am Canadian too, I have several friends who
take 1-2 week holidays who make way less than the median software engineer.

Do all of your friends have kids and expensive mortgages, or what?

~~~
Scoundreller
It could be the case if you’re not near a major airport and have to deal with
a monopolist.

I’m near Toronto and flights to France on a flag carrier can be cheaper than
domestic. Things are different if you’re more secluded.

------
wtdata
When I was growing up, until I was about 16, my parents never, ever went on
vacations (their only vacation in their life had been going on honeymoon, 1
week to a city 300Km away... and staying in a room in their relative's house).

Now, after working all their life, they can afford some middle range vacations
every year.

This is what people that take responsibility for their life do, I guess, so I
can't see any problem with 28% of people not being able to afford something
that is basically a luxury.

~~~
AstralStorm
You mean temporary rental and transport is a luxury? I suppose so, by some
interesting standard... But then, so is having a TV set, or a smartphone.

~~~
wtdata
No it's not interesting. You are not "entitled" to travel for holidays, even
in a society with a good social security net that ensures the basic needs of
its citizens are met.

~~~
timwaagh
we, as humans, define needs. air is most essential. water is second. food less
so, but not having it will still kill. then there is housing, which isn't
strictly necessary. healthcare, which will expand your expected lifespan. and
this is where things start to differ: europe thinks healthcare is a need, in
usa that's very much up for discussion. now in europe whether you have a need
for travel is also up for discussion. here in nl there are foundations which
sponsor the holidays of poor families, for instance.

------
rchaud
Instead of waffling about 16 year olds, did anybody notice that the underlying
data source was provided, and is a dashboard that can be modified?

The URL is absurdly long, so I won't post it here but it is right there in the
2nd paragraph.

If I change the "Household Type" filter to only show "Households with
Dependent Children", the EU-28 rate is 31.2% in 2017, with the lowest in
Norway at 7.3%. The 2018 numbers are estimates.

------
ppeetteerr
There is a lot of information missing in this post. For instance, what is a
1-week vacation? Something about those numbers tells me it's using the average
cost of a vacation in Europe, rather than a cost proportional to the income of
a person in that country. Would help a lot if there was more to this article.

~~~
zokier
Data was collected using questionnaires, see page 4 of
[https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Hous...](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Household+data+-+Material+deprivation.pdf/5f81bcd6-8b37-498b-ab06-b53b43d2bb87)

------
edgarvaldes
>away from home

I guess finding a nice location away from home is a lot easier for europeans,
the continent is filled with holiday-grade spots.

I'm four hours apart from the next nice city in my country (talking about
traveling by car).

------
Animats
Wait until "996" hits Europe.

------
lota-putty
Even though the report seems speculative, a second study in the past/future
with the same yard-stick paints a better picture.

2013: 39.5%

2018: 28.3%

That's an impressive circulation of money.

------
mahesh_rm
I call BS. I am from Europe and I don't know anybody that cannot afford a week
away from their home. And no, I don't live in a social bubble.

~~~
alexbanks
It sounds like you almost definitely do.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
Yeah, parent's argument is one of the most interesting I've seen in a while:
"I don't know _any_ poor people, and no, I don't live in a bubble, so poverty
doesn't exist!"

