
Peter Thiel bought his NZ citizenship, documents show - kafkaesq
https://theintercept.com/2017/02/01/billionaire-trump-adviser-peter-thiel-bought-his-new-zealand-citizenship-documents-show/
======
tps5
This just feels nasty. It feels like left-leaning media outlets (note: I'm
left leaning) are scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to discredit anyone
who has the gall to disagree with their narrative that Trump is a disaster
(note: I think Trump is a disaster, so far).

I don't much care for Peter Thiel. I didn't exactly mind that he funded legal
action against Gawker in itself, what bothers me there is the same thing that
bothers me about this:

Money should not affect the outcomes of legal actions, directly or indirectly.
Similarly, money should not allow you to become a citizen of a country you've
never lived in, on a whim.

Sadly we're not close to removing money from the equation in either of those
areas (and many more), and we probably never will be.

All of that aside, Thiel's use of his money to get a leg up is a symptom of
the problem, not the cause. It's one example among a sea of examples. And the
only reason it's getting this level of scrutiny is because Thiel has taken
"unpopular" stances.

~~~
kafkaesq
_And the only reason it 's getting this level of scrutiny is because Thiel has
taken "unpopular" stances._

It's not because of his "stances", or because they're "unpopular." It's
because he's very close to the new administration, and was instrumental in
allowing it to come into power (in fact, crucially so).

~~~
tps5
> was instrumental in allowing it to come into power (in fact, crucially so).

This is vague supposition. No one can quantify how much/how little Thiel had
to do with Trump winning. If dollars spent on a campaign = being president,
then Trump would not be president. If this election proved one good thing,
it's that money can't buy you a general election in the United States.

> It's not because of his "stances", or because they're "unpopular." It's
> because he's very close to the new administration

It doesn't matter if this scrutiny is because "he's close to the new
administration." I don't want to only read about corruption of people "close
to X administration that I dislike." I'd like to read about corruption
regardless of which narrative, party, worldview, etc the people involved in
the corruption subscribe to.

To put it another way, the fact that Thiel likes Trump does not make this
valid news.

~~~
kafkaesq
_No one can quantify how much /how little Thiel had to do with Trump winning._

Right, it isn't quantifiable; it require qualitative analysis. Like most
significant events and forces in history.

In brief response to what you (and the other commenter) were saying: yes, even
at $1.25m, Thiel's donation to the campaign wasn't a game changer (or even
close to one). But his strategic significance (serving on the Executive
Committee of Trump's transition team, and as one of his top financial
advisors), in addition to his (perceived) intellectual "gravitas", far
outstripped the significance of his cash donation.

~~~
tps5
Sure, you're free to offer your opinion on which factors tilted the election.
But I would urge you to qualify that opinion with an introduction like "in my
opinion..." I say this because, to me, it's not obvious at all that Thiel had
a significant impact in the election and you stated it so matter-of-factly
that I smiled to myself.

To me, claims like "X individual was crucial to Y historical event in some
vague way that involves 'intellectual gravitas'" seem absurd. That doesn't
square with my view on how humans make decisions. It's difficult for me to
imagine a human whose decision to vote for Donald Trump hinged on Peter
Thiel's endorsement of Donald Trump.

I'd also bet money that most Americans who know who Peter Thiel is, and have
strong feelings about him, live in CA and voted for Clinton.

------
vonnik
It's fundamentally hypocritical of Thiel to stick America with a maniac from
whom the vast majority of citizens can't escape, while he has a perfect backup
plan. One of his many hypocrisies.

~~~
mixedCase
Thiel had veto powers on the electoral college? Did I miss something?

------
kennywinker
Peter Thiel has demonstrated a willingness to use his money to influence
politics in the US. If he now does the same in NZ, is that now not a "foreign
influence" on their country? Just because he did some paperwork and bought
himself citizenship?

~~~
pm90
It is clearly. That is kinda the point of the article.

------
josefresco
"In the first seven days after Donald Trump’s election, 13,401 Americans
registered with New Zealand’s immigration authorities, the first official step
toward seeking residency—more than seventeen times the usual rate. "

[http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-
prep-f...](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-for-the-
super-rich)

------
xupybd
As a born NZ citizen I welcome people like Thiel. He may have bought his
citizenship, but we could do with more like him.

~~~
owenwil
As a born NZ citizen as well, are you serious? More rich people that are -
generally speaking - racist, sexist, anti-democracy and have tendencies to sue
news organizations into the ground while calling it "charity"? He can
ultimately do what he wants, but I don't think we need more of these types of
people.

~~~
yummyfajitas
What makes you believe Thiel is racist or sexist?

Also, the idea of rich people/foundations/etc supporting lawsuits for
ideological reasons is hardly new. Do you similarly oppose the Southern
Poverty Law Center, who successfully filed (valid) lawsuits against the Aryan
Nations with the goal of shutting them down? Or the Conservation Law
Foundation, and all their donors?

[https://www.splcenter.org/seeking-justice/case-
docket/keenan...](https://www.splcenter.org/seeking-justice/case-
docket/keenan-v-aryan-nations)

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/exxonmobil-lawsuit-
conse...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/exxonmobil-lawsuit-conservation-
law-foundation-climate-change_us_57ec1512e4b024a52d2c5ae5)

~~~
owenwil
It's good to see HN's "whataboutism" is alive and well
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism)

~~~
yummyfajitas
Whataboutism is a perfectly valid argumentation technique. If you argue
against person X for doing Z, but not against person Y who does the same
thing, it suggests you might actually just have a grudge against X.

I'm asking whether you actually object to funding valid lawsuits against
people due to speech you object to, or whether that's simply a cheap attack
line.

------
outworlder
Well, today is Check your Backups day
([http://checkyourbackups.work](http://checkyourbackups.work)). Everyone
should have a backup, Peter Thiel is no exception ( _)

So what if he "bought" his citizenship? Is that illegal? If not, that "makes
him smart". There are plenty of places that will grant you, if not
citizenship, then permanent residency, as long as you bring in cash. Or will
at least have a fast-track path.

On that note, if you are young, try to get citizenship in more than one
country. Or, if you have kids, do that for them. That way, you limit the
amount of influence a given government can have on you. If things go south,
you have a backup plan.

(_) Disclaimer: I dislike the guy, but I feel this piece of news is weak.

------
toomanybeersies
As a New Zealand citizen who is a dual national of a country that I've never
visited, I'm not necessarily opposed to non-residents becoming citizens.

I am concerned though, about people who are well known for using their giant
stack of cash to influence politics and legal cases being given citizenship.

I do think that the outcome of the Hulk Hogan vs Gawker case was a good thing,
but I don't think that Theil funding it was a good thing. Billionaires funding
legal cases of unrelated people based on a personal vendetta isn't a road I
want society to go down, especially such a target approach. If he was giving
aid to various people suing various yellow journalism outlets for
slander/libel, I'd be inclined to believe that he was being at least slightly
altruistic.

And then there's the amount of money he's put into politics. As far as I'm
concerned, it doesn't matter if he supported Clinton, Sanders, or Trump, it's
the amount of money he gave.

I get the impression from the man that all he cares about is himself, and
he'll just throw money at things to get what he wants.

------
elastic_church
lol, that oath though! Doesn't matter, still rich. Everyone aspires to have
that flexibility when they find out about it and see it within their grasp.
And its great - for the individual - how the rules disappear.

~~~
FabHK
The oath appears funny, in modern times.

Are you familiar with the US naturalisation oath? It goes like this:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure
all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or
sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;
that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States
of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true
faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the
United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant
service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law;
that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when
required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any
mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

[https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/naturalization-
test/nat...](https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/naturalization-
test/naturalization-oath-allegiance-united-states-america)

------
canadian_voter
_NEWS FLASH: Billionaire gets what they want by spending millions of dollars_

I think it helps to imagine Peter Thiel as a comic book supervillain. He wants
to live forever, so _of course_ he's going to have a remote HQ to flee to in
an emergency.

He may or not be a bad guy, but I think it's pretty clear that he has one
standard for himself and another standard for others.

------
mr_spothawk

      in the wake of public outrage in that country shows that
      Thiel would have been denied citizenship on the self-
      admitted fact that he has never lived in the country and 
      has no plans to do so
    

pieter theil bought himself a novelty post-appocalypse passport for $700m.

------
xmly
Just wonder how much to buy the NZ citizenship? So I could start saving!

------
kapauldo
Peter Thiel is a young Mr. Burns. Young, rich, and alone.

------
tannhauser23
Who cares?

~~~
freehunter
I agree. If NZ let him buy his way to citizenship, then what's the problem? He
didn't break any laws, he followed the rules, and he got his citizenship
legally. What's the story here?

~~~
owenwil
It isn't legal - he was granted an exception to the rules after being denied
because he had a change of heart and donated $700m - for the first time ever -
to the disaster fund, then applied again immediately. In NZ you must actually
live there to gain citizenship, even if you pay.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _It isn 't legal_

It appears the Internal Affairs Department may legally approve citizenship
under "exceptional circumstances". And he is not alone: "one to two dozen
[applicants] a year...are approved for citizenship by the minister of internal
affairs under 'exceptional' circumstances" [1].

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/01/business/peter-thiel-
new-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/01/business/peter-thiel-new-zealand-
citizenship.html?em_pos=small&emc=edit_dk_20170201&nl=dealbook&nl_art=20&nlid=65508833&ref=headline&te=1)

~~~
conistonwater
Even if technically legal, that's still really quite dodgy.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
I agree. But the proper response shouldn't be "that's illegal," but instead,
that the interior minister should be stripped of that power.

~~~
strken
Why? That minister got the NZ public $700m USD in disaster relief in an
exchange that cost them virtually nothing. If anything he should be given an
award for outstanding excellence in the field of defrauding rich yanks.

EDIT: 700k, not 700m. Still, not a bad deal.

