

Ask HN: What's your experience living/working abroad? - misham

I would like to spend a year or two working abroad, teaching English and/or programming and contracting.  I am wondering if anyone has done something like this. What advice you would have: financial, finding work, living arrangements, language skills needed, best places in the world to start off, etc.  Also, any resources you can suggest would be great.<p>Thank you
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nickfromseattle
I taught English in Brazil. I got a TEFL certificate through Bridge-Linguatec.
If you are going to teach, I cannot say enough good things about Bridge. It
was 40hrs/week for 1 month in Rio De Janeiro. I've seen people attempt and
teach English without a TEFL and they dont do a good job. Also immersion is
the best way to teach so you do not need to speak the local language.

It will be hard to support yourself by teaching. Through a private company you
will earn ~11USD/hr, but they dont pay for transportation time or cost, or the
time it takes to create the lesson plan. So the actual figure ends up being
more like 8.50USD/2 hours.

You can do much better through private lessons (up to 40usd/hr) but they are
hard to get - you usually find your privates by teaching through a company and
stealing their clients. (They pay the company about R$75/hr, so if you are
good you can convince them to drop the company and pay you R$50-R$60/hr -
which is about 25usd-30usd)

I went down there by myself, without speaking the language or knowing a single
person and 6 months later I had a big social circle and was somewhat of a
group organizer/leader.

It was easily the best 6 months of my life and I realized if I can flourish in
Rio De Janeiro - one of the most dangerous cities in the world - without
knowing the language, or knowing a single person, I can do anything I want.

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viraptor
I don't think you'll get many answers, because your question is simply too
vague. The world is huge. What kind of place are you looking for, what are
your expectations regarding work, what about contact with other people, what
are you trying to achieve, what are your preferences? Every single country
would a different answer here.

"Abroad" is a very large and diverse place.

~~~
misham
I know I left the question very broad. At the moment, I'm researching my
options of where to go. I'm not tied to a specific location like Europe or
Asia or more specific: working in Madrid vs. working in Tokyo vs. working in
Santiago vs. working in Vancouver. Each of these locales have their pluses and
minuses.

I can consult numerous guides on living abroad in all kinds of locales as well
as read various blogs on this topic.

I am more curious about how the HN community members made it work for them,
independent of their locale.

As for "every country would be a different answer", why not have every country
listed here?

~~~
eru
To define what abroad means to you: Where are you coming from?

~~~
misham
I'm in the US and abroad means anything outside USA, including Canada and
Mexico.

~~~
willheim
Living in Canada is not living abroad... unless you're Michael Arrington
(judging from last nights post even if it was tongue in cheek).

Scratch that... maybe living in Quebec City could qualify. Ha!

~~~
misham
I haven't visit Vancouver, but I've been to Quebec City and Montreal. I
imagine Vancouver to be very different from Quebec, just like LA is different
from Boston or New York (some would argue including the language), however, in
US we're Americans and thus certain cultural aspects hold true. Living in
Canada would be different from living in US, maybe not from the language
perspective, but definitely from a cultural perspective.

I am basing this on my own assumptions, which could be quite wrong, please
correct me if I'm making the wrong assumptions.

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pdelgallego
I has became a bit like a nomad. In the last ten years I have been living in
several countries (Spain, Italy, Germany, Romania, USA and now I just move to
Denmark)

Some countries are more difficult than others. Work visas can be a pain in the
ass, I left the US because the H1B wasn't really a good deal. Languages are
always the biggest barrier, but in some countries you can start working even
if you only speak English.

Three advices.

\- Be positive, there will be times that things go wrong and/or you feel
lonely. Don't desperate it take time and effort to build a social network in a
different country.

\- Keep in touch with your family and friends back home, Sooner than later you
will be back.

\- Try new things out of your confort zone. The job that I liked best so far
was when I restored a very old country hause in Italy.

~~~
misham
Could you give some advice/tips on getting work visas in the countries you've
been?

~~~
pdelgallego
Well getting a Visa in the USA was really hard, and I just gave up, in the
meantime I was working as a contractor and flying in and out of the country
every third month to renew my Tourist visa. This is the worst scenario, but it
works. I also use this technique during long trips to Thailand and China. If
you do this try to hire a medical insurance that cover hospitals and medicines
outside of your country. It also a good idea to look ahead and see what
vaccinations you are going to need.

I am a EU citizen, so I can work in any country of the EU (Schengen countries
actually). Romania was not a full EU country at that time, so I applied for a
visa, it was quite easy, but requires a lot of paperwork, in my case the girl
I was dating at that time did it for me.

Anyway the first thing that I always do is to call the embassy or consulate of
the country that I want to visit at ask for information, each country has its
own laws. In some embassies they would provide you the contact address of law
firms that are specialist in this.

~~~
misham
Thanks! Contacting the embassies is a great point. Once I decided on my first
destination, I'll start figuring out how to get a work visa there.

Were you already in the country when you applied for the work visa?

~~~
pdelgallego
Yes, I always start with a tourist visa to see how I adapt to the country, if
after one month Im doing good and I am loving it, then I start thre process.

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jonnycat
You may want consider doing a master's program abroad. In many countries (in
Scandinavia in particular) the programs are free and you pay just for living
expenses, which you should be able to cover with some contracting work. The
programs tend to be in English as well.

I did such a master's at Chalmers University in Sweden and it was really a
great experience.

~~~
phamilton
How was Chalmers? I lived in Göteborg as a missionary for 2 years, and knew
many students at Chalmers.

Where are you working now? Has your masters at Chalmers been beneficial?

~~~
jonnycat
Chalmers was great, and I miss Göteborg!

I'm working at a startup in Boston now. The masters has been a huge benefit to
me, though my job these days doesn't exactly relate to the program I was in
(Complex Adaptive Systems).

One interesting feature of the master's programs in Sweden (compared to the
US) is that most students do their thesis work with industry, so it might be a
good match for people leaning more towards business than academia (ie, those
who read HN).

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c1sc0
Have no doubts & just do it. I left my homecountry on a whim to follow a girl
& it has been the best decision I've ever made. Countries & people are
different, even if it's only 'the country next door'. You can learn a lot by
simply changing environment. Being forced to work professionally in a language
you don't master 100% can be frustrating at first, but it changes your way of
thinking: you learn to be concise & to the point because you _have_ to.

------
waru
I have lived in three cities in Japan for the last three years, and strongly
recommend Kyoto. I think most people want to live in Tokyo if they come to
Japan, but I think Kyoto is one of the best cities in the world. It's
beautiful, has an amazing laid-back atmosphere, and is full of interesting
events and things as it is the cultural capital of Japan.

The only problem is that you get a lot more out of Japan if you speak
Japanese. Not many people here are very good at English. There's plenty of
expats, though. Everyone I know who has visited Kyoto temporarily as a tourist
or student has loved it and wanted to stay as long as possible.

There are English teaching jobs aplenty in Japan, but many have low pay and
not so great conditions. As long as you're not from America, you can come on a
working holiday. (I'm American so I came here with a job on the JET (Japan
Exchange Teaching) Program. It pays a lot but usually places you in the
country-side, not a sweet place like Kyoto.)

Personally, I think living abroad is one of the best, most educational things
you can do for yourself. If I could run my own country, I'd require all
citizens to live abroad for at least one year.

Good luck, and have fun on your adventure!

~~~
misham
That sounds like a great time. I wouldn't mind living in the country side for
some time, I'm sure there pluses and minuses to living in a city like Kyoto or
living in the country side.

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ced
I lived for three years in Asia without working (Turkey, India, China). My
standard recommendation is Kunming, China. You can live there very comfortably
on 400$/month. There's a good foreigner community, ultimate frisbee, awesome
food, and the environment and weather are fantastic. You can teach English if
you want to, for 15$/hour. A great meal at a restaurant costs 4$.

In Asia, finding a shared flat is usually pretty straightforward. Just ask
students and other young people on the street. They will be more than happy to
help and practice their English. Networking with other foreigners also works
pretty well, though living with the locals is a good way of learning the
language fast.

Email me if you need any help.

~~~
misham
Thank you for the help offer. I am considering China is one of the
destinations, though I was concerned about where to live and work. I'll take a
look at Kunming.

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elptacek
Once you get wherever you are going, find an expat community. Yes, I realise
you may be trying to get AWAY from your fellow countrymen, but someone who
speaks your language and knows their way around will be invaluable, especially
when culture shock sets in.

~~~
misham
Great point! I am not looking to avoid fellow countrymen, rather to immerse
myself in a completely different environment. I can see how having expats to
talk to would be of a great benefit.

~~~
elptacek
I lived in Zurich from 95-97, rooming with an American expat I met through
Usenet news. He still lives there, in fact. He knows where all the good
shopping is, and he's fluent in German. Very handy.

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albahk
If you are going to a country that speaks a different language my advice is to
enroll in a beginners language course as soon as you get there. This will give
you some structured activity to do for the first few weeks and will aquaint
you with others who are probably encountering the same situation. In addition,
its a good way to get an instant social circle so you can at least have people
to hang out with in a new country.

As a side-effect, you will also get a much deeper understanding of the local
people/culture if you have at least a basic understanding of their language.

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eru
I am living `abroad' at the moment. I program in Britain. I have also spend
some time studying in Turkey with the Erasmus programme.

Make sure you have enough money, and that you can work legally in the country
of your choice. Please learn the local language---if only out of courtesy.

Chile has an interesting programme to lure entrepeneurs. See
<http://www.startupchile.org/> for details.

~~~
misham
I've seen that program, it looks like a great opportunity and I'm working on
an application right now :)

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bigwally
How old are you and what passport(s) do you have? I know US citizens can get a
working holiday visa for New Zealand, this would allow you to get programming
work.

Searching various job sites and just playing with the country setting can
yield some interesting results. If you have some language skills searching
sites like the UN, world bank, IMF etc. can be useful.

Teaching English can be fun, most people I have met doing it tend to do it for
six months or so before disappearing into thin air. Although you do get to
work a lot less hours.

~~~
misham
I just have a US passport. Haven't considered New Zealand, but will look at
it. Found Wikipedia article with lots of info on working visa:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_holiday_visa>

