
The Hacker Who Drank Ayahuasca - tby
https://medium.com/@Grayfox/the-hacker-who-drank-ayahuasca-517148aa1ed4
======
vivekmgeorge
I have taken Ayahuasca plenty of times and it has been an incredible
experience for me thus far. Like everything in this universe there can bad
sides to it, but with the correct people and when correctly brewed it can be
extremely enlightening. What in life doesn't have a negative side to it? And
when people say someone has been transformed for the worse after taking
Ayahuasca what does that really mean? Worse for who? What's really good and
bad? Stuff determined to be legal by a bunch of conservative males? I guess
tobacco and alcohol are fine..

~~~
dutchbrit
I have heard stories of seeing a mother kind of thing? What's that all about -
have you experienced this?

~~~
rosser
Aya can have a very feminine, mothering aspect to it at times, and in many
traditions, it's referred to as " _la madre_ ", or even just "she". It's not
something I've experienced often, but it's lovely when it does show up.

As for what it's about, there's no real universal answer to that. Everyone's
every experience of aya is different; it's what happens when that individual
drinks that dose on that night. There are commonalties and themes you start to
see and be able to work with, given enough experience, but there are very few
_absolutes_.

------
jzelinskie
There are also stories of people dying and the locals dumping their bodies
elsewhere so that they don't ruin others experiences or stop people from
coming to try the 'Medicine'. IIRC, the primary drug in Ayahuasca is DMT,
which can be acquired other ways (that are less likely to make you puke) than
drinking their jungle juice.

~~~
rosser
Yeah, that happened. There's another center in the jungle I know of that
changes its name every time they have a guest die. And I've heard stories of
"shamans" who add a paralytic to the dose they give attractive young female
guests...

But you know what? Those are the exceptions. I've taken ayahuasca dozens of
times, and am booked for another trip to Peru next month. I've been fortunate
only to work with reputable people, and have consistently only met others in
my travels that have also worked with reputable people.

Please don't judge a tradition that's thousands of years old, and actually
remarkably safe — with a few caveats, that the reputable folks will screen for
— on the basis of a couple of cretins who look at the plants and the gringo
tourists and just see dollar signs.

~~~
api
All that kind of shadiness is a consequence of prohibition -- since it's
illegal, black and grey markets staffed by crooks and irresponsible flaky
types fill the vendor niche. Without prohibition you could go to a
professionally run center and take pharmaceutically pure DMT+MAOI instead of
shaman piss, and do so with experienced genuinely psychologically educated
guides and with modern medical care available in case of a reaction.

~~~
rosser
I disagree. It's legal in Peru, where all of the cases I listed occurred.
(Technically, it's a gray area where, in the case of indigenous practitioners
working on foreign guests, the law literally has nothing to say — neither
legal nor illegal, but tolerated because tourism dollars. Indigenous folks
treating indigenous folks is black-letter legal, and protected.) It's not
prohibition, but rather greed and predation, that create most of the harms
that have happened in ayahuasca practice in the jungle.

I've never done it, but I have a strong sense that pharmahuasca would be cold,
sterile, and missing some of the _je ne sais quoi_ that the "shaman piss" [1]
experience offers. I'm sure it would still be a valuable experience, and one
I'd be open to exploring, but drinking trees works well enough for me, thanks.

I mean, sure you can puke (I often do, sometimes several times in the course
of a night), and it tastes horrible, and your sweat smells like tree bark at
the end of the night — let alone the end of the week. That's just the process,
though, and "optimizing" it out would probably also remove many of the things
that are actually among the most valuable (for me, and everyone else who does
this more than once with whom I've spoken) aspects.

EDIT: footnote added.

[1] Interestingly, in one of the earliest-documented shamanic traditions,
tribes on the Siberian steppe would use _amanita muscaria_ mushrooms, which
are visionary, but also mildly toxic. The shaman would take a shaman-sized
dose, and journey, then collect his urine (which still contains threshold
doses of psychoactive metabolites), and serve that to his "patients".

~~~
api
It's prohibition in Wastern countries, which drives a "drug tourism" industry
that distorts local markets and encourages that kind of "tourist trap"
predation. Prohibition tends to export the corruption it breeds.

I agree about set and setting. The "clinics" I picture are probably not what
that word normally conjures up.

~~~
rosser
I take your point, and don't disagree, but there's an element of the _gestalt_
of the experience that calls for its being done in its ethnic and ecological
context. For many of the people I know through my time down there, the act of
taking the journey to the jungle to do this work is an integral part of the
process. That is to say, it's not just "jurisdiction shopping" (but by the
same token, that doesn't mean there's none of that, either).

~~~
api
I don't disagree. It would be our shamanic experience, not theirs. It would
have a different set, setting, gestalt, mythology, and symbolism around it.

I'd be fascinated to know then if certain underlying themes and insights would
remain similar or not. So far the western experience with psychedelics does
show some commonality with that of indigenous peoples-- it's common for people
to report a kind of cosmic oneness experience, insights about their character,
etc. But there are also unique cultural twists. Ours have a flavor reminiscent
of Greek and Roman Dionysian and Bacchanalian ceremonies, and then there is
stuff like:

[http://www.matrixmasters.net/salon/2006/06/podcast-042-–-“us...](http://www.matrixmasters.net/salon/2006/06/podcast-042-–-“using-
psychedelics-for-rational-work”/)

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thescribe
This article was rambling devoid of much substance. That's not exactly a
ringing endorsement for the state of mind the product puts you in.

~~~
Eleopteryx
That's largely because the experiences are ineffable and simply can't be
accurately related. It would be like trying to describe the color "red" to a
blind person. At best you can try to make an analogy to something with which
they are familiar. But they will never be able to imagine it in the way that
they would consciously see it.

~~~
hansjorg
They should have sent a poet.

~~~
endymi0n
+1 for the Contact reference

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evincarofautumn
I know a guy whose personality changed completely, and not for the better,
after he took ayahuasca. Be careful.

~~~
MrBlue
I know a guy whose personality and health changed completely, and for the
better, after he took Ayahuasca. Do your research, think for yourself.

~~~
evincarofautumn
I agree.

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kurage
I've taken Ayahuasca more than a handful of times and it's been the most
therapeutic experiences of my entire life.

Not only was I able to recover some of my traumatic memories when I was a
toddler, it's revealed so many things about myself that I've repressed, like
sexuality, and didn't know.. and taught me how the universe may work. It's
given me a direction in life, and my attitude towards others have
significantly improved compared to before the experiences.

------
deckar01
Some background on Ayahuasca:
[https://erowid.org/chemicals/ayahuasca/](https://erowid.org/chemicals/ayahuasca/)

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heyalexej
Is [http://ayaadvisor.org/](http://ayaadvisor.org/) a reputable source in
terms of reviews? If not, how could this problem be fixed?

Scraping and analyzing a few million reviews on tripadvisor a few months ago
left me at a place where I don't trust any review site anymore. I've been
thinking about solutions to this problem ever since and can't come up with
anything that would reliably fix that problem.

~~~
hluska
I posted a link to a CBC article in which someone with the Institute of
Shamanic Medicine (in BC, Canada) suggested that people contact her group and
let them make an intro to a good shaman. I don't entirely trust the institute
(they have a six month online course in shamanism), but that could be a good
place to start.

[http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/jennifer-logan-s-death-in-
pe...](http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/jennifer-logan-s-death-in-peru-puts-
focus-on-purging-ceremonies-1.2948955)

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sshb
Yeah, right. Narcotic delirium is the best source of life advices.

------
fapjacks
DMT is the gateway to reality. You don't know what reality is until you've
consumed DMT. I highly recommend everyone in a stable moment in their lives
(mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, et cetera) give Ayahuasca a
chance. It will change your life.

------
heurist
Kind of annoying to read honestly, but I agree with his message and
experience. I grew up on the internet and don't know how to happily fit into
the world as a young adult. Have had deep depression and social anxiety for
more than a decade, found out I have ADHD, turned to psychedelics out of
curiosity and to see if they helped at all. They helped me realize how
unsatisfied I am, and the more I take the more unsatisfied I become. But drugs
don't change your lifestyle on their own and it still takes a lot of courage
to do that, especially when you have a secure tech job. I haven't made that
leap yet.

Society is sick, and I don't think the internet is helping. Information
overload distracts us from looking into the experiences around and within us;
is addictive and keeps us from sleeping or thinking when bored, affecting mood
and energy; encourages perpetually increasing productivity without even
providing a reason to be productive in the first place (beyond arbitrary
societal rules); keeps many of us inside and away from sunlight or fresh air;
makes it too easy to jump between shallow interests rather than sticking with
one deep interest; and hides us from other people while causing us to see them
as phones or handles rather than faces and behaviors. That has been my
experience, anyway. There are plenty of other problems caused by misuse of
technology but they're well known on this forum.

I used to wonder how people kept themselves from going insane from boredom in
pre-agricultural societies. But I realized all the days where I have been most
content involved taking in little information and just existing for a while,
wandering around in the woods, napping, introspecting, being with friends and
family I have deep relationships with, etc. I spent one summer in college
almost entirely without the internet while living in a small, close, rustic
community. The days seemed to last forever and I had never been so happy or
felt so connected to others as an adult. Being in one place for a long time
with few other people forced us to develop deeper bonds than we would have
outside of a community like that.

I'm not a fan of capitalism, but I think it's a self-correcting problem.
Eventually technology WILL automate all of life's difficulties and we will
transition back to a simpler and more comfortable way of life as humans. It
will be a while until AI gets us there though. Until then we have stimulants,
anti-depressants, and anti-anxiety pills to try to hammer in those aspects of
humanity that make it hard to fit into contemporary society.

P.S. If you're looking for answers to "life's big questions", here they are:
We and everything else are deterministic emergent patterns stemming from the
laws of thermodynamics (or whatever fundamental laws exist) and an initial
state (or some reference state) of the universe. That's the only solid
foundation I have found for my personal philosophical and spiritual inquiries,
but I spent a LONG time looking for it. You can easily answer all the big
questions with an understanding of that foundation. I have finally been able
to move on to smaller but more complex and practical questions without feeling
like I'm missing something.

P.P.S Always read the word 'spiritual' as 'relating to the subconscious
workings of the mind'. A lot of people use the word 'spiritual' in a vague
mystical way, but you can adjust for that with this definition. They may not
know how the brain works, but they still have brains and their spiritual
experiences can still be fascinating and full of insight.

~~~
ZeroFries
Though I don't currently suffer from depression or social anxiety, I can
relate to much of what you're saying. But, I also feel that small, controlled
amounts of computer time can be incredibly educational and even expressive
(through art, writing, and programming). The internet helps spread ideas like
never before, and you probably wouldn't even have many of your ideas without
it.

Like everything in life, there are pros and cons, and deciding how this
technology fits into your life and community is important. Mindless adoption
is the real problem.

I do wish modern society had more opportunities for close community though,
especially for people who are non-religious or do not view their work as part
of their identity.

~~~
heurist
I totally agree, small amounts are great and I wouldn't have any of my ideas
if I hadn't spent so much time learning and connecting random facts via the
internet. It's hard for me to limit myself, though. Since I'm a software
developer I'm always online, and brain-sucking vortexes are two absentminded
clicks away at any given time. That's a big problem I'm trying to fix right
now.

------
yason
I haven't had ayahuasca but I suppose it's the same as with any mind-altering
drug: don't take it for recreational purposes but for spiritual purposes. Take
it if you're willing to suffer through mental work in order to gain an
expanded view of yourself and how you fit into the universe. If you want it
because you want to have fun, escape stress or trauma, or fix something, then
don't.

~~~
mgmeyers
While I mostly agree, ayahuasca is particularly good at helping you (sometimes
forcing you) to work through stress and trauma, and helping you fix things. It
allows you to observe your memories (in vivid detail) as a third party and
guides you through them. There are many accounts of rape survivors, veterans,
and other PTSD sufferers finally being able to let go after taking ayahuasca.

~~~
cnp
The way it works on the memory is totally phenomenal. I liken it to clicking
through folders on your computer; you jump in, explore in great detail a space
that seems so familiar, then go deeper into other folders. When you're done
you jump out and can't quite remember exactly what you saw, but the experience
stays with you as though the work you needed to do had been done. In my minds
eye I even had a crazy software-like environment playing out as I explored.
Its so so wild.

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davidtanner
I highly recommend the book _The Antipodes of the Mind: Charting the
Phenomenology of the Ayahuasca Experience_ for those interested in serious
scholarly research about Ayahuasca and its subjective effects.

[http://www.amazon.com/The-Antipodes-Mind-Phenomenology-
Exper...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Antipodes-Mind-Phenomenology-
Experience/dp/0199252939)

------
Tharkun
There are no sure-fire shortcuts to happiness or enlightenment or whatever it
is you're seeking. The Internet isn't "It" and Ayahuasca (or other
hallucinogenics) aren't "It" either.

There is joy and life to be found in pretty much anything. If you're unhappy
with your existence, there are other, more convenient ways of going about it
than trying dangerous chemicals in dangerous environs.

~~~
mgmeyers
Like?

~~~
chillingeffect
I've found it very helpful to listen to lectures by and practice behaviors
taught by people who have made a habit of "trying dangerous chemicals in
dangerous environs."

IOW, there are some people having the ayahuasca/DMT experience who are able to
communicate it back to the rest of us well enough that we can make modest
changes in our behavior and end up much happier.

IME, it's been learning to treat myself better, love myself and be nicer to
other people. Eventually, if you look enough for it, you start to realize that
you can't actually treat yourself different from others... (you can't actually
break the golden rule!) So if you get into the habit of complimenting people,
soothing them when they're upset, you'll find your own mental state vastly
improving, because you're judging yourself the same as you judge others. It's
strange and I don't understand it, but it's been working for me. And it sounds
like "empathy," but empathy is a side effect of this process that I could
still choose to practice separately or not.

My experience resonates with the OP. A lot of the world doesn't really matter
much unless it's been infused with love. This sounds corny b/c advertisers
have the jump on such phrases, but it's pretty much true. Unless someone is
physically defective, you can psychoanalyze them to death, describe their
problems a million ways, but if they simply start being nicer to other people
(and there are some specific ways to do this, not just making cakes for
everyone), they begin to heal. It also has to do with reframing pain and some
other ideas. If anyone's interested, I can share some yt links...

------
basseq
Interesting tie back to common HN discussions on the Wikipedia page for
ayahyasca[1]:

Someone successfully patented the plant at the core of ayahyasca (B. Caapi) in
1986. That's right, UPTO granted a trademark on a plant.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca#Legal_issues](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca#Legal_issues)

------
techpeace
For anybody else interested in learning more about DMT, the active ingredient
in Ayahuasca, I'd recommend the excellent documentary "The Spirit Molecule":
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1340425/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1340425/)

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jagermo
That Calvin and Hobbes comic really hit me hard.

