
In Search of Zoroastrian Manuscripts in Iran - benbreen
http://blogs.bl.uk/endangeredarchives/2017/03/zoroastrian_manuscripts_iran.html
======
glitchc
Zoroastrians moved to India from Iran in two separate waves, the first circa
800 AD and another circa 1500 AD. There are Atashes (fire temples) in Udvada,
just north of Mumbai that have been burning for over a millenia now.

Zoroastrians are, on average, wealthier compared to the average Indian
population. They were the first Indian sub-group to learn English under
British rule and were thus heavily involved in commercial endeavours,
benefitting them monetarily. The community is endogamous however and there are
no conversions. Most Zoroastrians have now migrated to Western countries,
North America being a very popular destination, as are UK and Australia. There
is still a Tower of Silence in the heart of Mumbai on some very prime real
estate.

~~~
yazaddaruvala
I don't know if I can answer people's questions but I was born Parsi (I.e.
Zoroastrians from India). AMA

~~~
redsummer
Are these people really Zoroastrians:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Converts_to_Zoroastri...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Converts_to_Zoroastrianism)

My eyebrows rose when I heard Julia Roberts was a Hindu, and perhaps these
people are the same. In love with exoticism, but not authentic.

~~~
ZeroFries
How do you know she's not authentic?

~~~
redsummer
I don't _know_ \- but being a Hindu seems as much an ethnic thing as a
religious thing. So I get the same feeling as reading about Rachel Dolezal.

~~~
fusiongyro
Another data point, possibly unrelated: conversion to Judaism. I don't have a
source for this, but I have heard (and it has been my personal experience as
well) that religious observance is correlated to acceptance of converts. In
other words, more religious Jews tend to be more tolerant of converts than
less religious Jews. I think this is because you really can't "convert" to
cultural Judaism, and the cultural Jews I have known have found the idea of it
kind of repellant, similarly to this article about Rachel Dolezal I just
read[1]. But in the case of Judaism, if you're culturally Jewish and don't see
any value in the religion, all you have is your experience of day-to-day life
as a Jew. You can't convert to being picked on for being Jewish. Or black, or
Hindu. But I think that attitude is more about building walls than empathy. If
someone comes to you saying they're a huge fan of your whole situation,
kicking sand in their face and shouting "YOU DON'T _KNOW_ ME!" doesn't make
the world a better place.

The situation in Iran is complicated. Zoroastrianism is a protected group
there, but it's extremely dangerous to be seen as welcoming converts in the
Islamic republic. Simultaneously, to convert away is basically to accede a
small amount of political power. I've heard (especially in _Religion in Iran_
[2]) that there may be a Zoroastrian movement taking shape; as converts, those
folks would certainly be welcoming of converts, but it's likely to make the
established group anxious because if it gains too much attention it will lead
to persecution of _all_ Zoroastrians in Iran. So you have two overlapping
marginal groups each trying to exaggerate the figures in opposite
directions—which is sort of thematic for the kind of contradictions you see in
Iran generally.

[1]: [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/byblackscom/rachel-dolezal-
is-n...](http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/byblackscom/rachel-dolezal-is-not-
black_b_15873620.html)

[2]: [https://www.amazon.com/Religions-Iran-Prehistory-Richard-
Fol...](https://www.amazon.com/Religions-Iran-Prehistory-Richard-
Foltz/dp/1780743084/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492033031&sr=8-1&keywords=religions+of+iran)

~~~
redsummer
In the case of Judaism, Israel makes Orthodox conversion more useful since it
doesn't accept you as a real Jew if you are a convert to a more weak tea
version of Judaism. People who convert are usually stronger believers, so they
would convert to the more undiluted version of the religion anyway.

On the other hand, 'cultural' Jews are more likely to marry non-Jews, and
absorb them into Judaism that way. And I suppose this leads to cultural Jews
leaving Judaism too. I think I read somewhere that the descendants of all the
founders of Reform Judaism ended up outside Judaism.

~~~
fusiongyro
Israel will accept you for making aliyah with any conversion (or none, if you
have even a small amount of Jewish blood). Being a "real Jew" in the eyes of
Israel may have some cachet for someone... but I don't know anybody who made a
decision about which movement to convert in on that basis. I also doubt
seriously that the Orthodox movement experiences more conversion than the
other movements. It's smaller than either the Reform or Conservative
movements.

~~~
redsummer
"In Israel, only Orthodox conversions are recognized"

[http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/10/10/445343896/i...](http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/10/10/445343896/in-
israel-a-new-battle-over-who-qualifies-as-jewish)

~~~
fusiongyro
For making aliyah, you do not have to have an Orthodox conversion. This issue
really only comes up for marriage. And of course, Israel has (in their typical
fashion) chosen the solution guaranteed to annoy the most people.

~~~
redsummer
That's the theory, but not the practice:

[http://www.haaretz.com/israel-
news/.premium-1.771725](http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.771725)

------
simplicio
Weirdly, until a few years ago, I'd only encountered Zoroastrianism in books
about Alex the Great, Ancient Persia, etc. and for whatever reason figured it
was an ancient religion that between the Muslims and Mongols, had died out a
Millennium ago.

It was kind of a weird sensation then when someone mentioned to me that Feddie
Mercury was from a Zoroastrian family. Like if I found out Jude Law had a
sister that was a Vestal Virgin or something.

~~~
pmichaud
Additionally, in a "memetic genealogy" sense, Zoroastrianism didn't die, it
evolved into modern Christianity.

~~~
azernik
It exerted influence on both Judaism and Christianity, but "evolved into" is
overstating the connection a bit.

~~~
bogomipz
Yazidism, the religion the Yazidis combines elements of Zoroastrianism, Islam,
Christianity and Judaism.

~~~
openasocket
Yes, but that's an example of syncretism, the mixing of religious beliefs and
practices. To extend the analogy to biological evolution, Yazidism is not the
"missing link" between those religions, but rather an example of cross-
pollination or hybridization.

------
ngcc_hk
Whilst I found the Hong Kong branch or influence of this religion interesting,
one cannot help a desecendent of this religion - Manichaeism - has a major
mark in chinese history and even recent literal culture.

The Ming dynasty was said to be found partially based on this religion. ...

------
ngcc_hk
the discussion is very interesting. Tracing the influence of Z to Judaism then
Christianity would be interesting.

------
olivermarks
thx benbreen for posting - fascinating

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jatsign
There's not much information in this blog post. They seem to be "looking" for
manuscripts, but don't mention finding them yet.

I guess I'm curios why it has so many upvotes?

~~~
StreamBright
I guess there are many zoroastrians among HN readers.

~~~
HarryHirsch
You'd think just that. The Parsi community is generally highly regarded and
for some reason many business leaders belong to it. The Tata family is
probably the best-known exponent.

~~~
Kalium
Endogamous-tending close-knit communities with cultural emphasis on education
tend to have both high-trust and high-skill populations. Such groups are often
well-placed to succeed in business.

------
saiya-jin
Interesting religion this Zoroastrianism, arguably the first monotheistic
religion. Been to Iran, even to Yazd few years back, which is still world
centre for this religion having their holy fire burning for centuries
(millenia?) in their temple. Freddie Mercury was one, albeit born in Zanzibar.
Back then he was not very proud of it, I presume in layman's view it must have
been akin to some witchcraft in UK.

Just behind the city of Yazd there are towers of silence - where they chopped
their dead and left them to vultures - still used in '70s. I guess their
cultural revolution stopped these practices, so now they just bury their dead
in big concrete slab (not spoiling the elements like earth, water or air)
behind the city.

Truly remarkable places to visit, before mass tourism will come (or US bombs
the place for some obscure reason completely unrelated to oil and local power
games). Cannot recommend enough! Just bear in mind you won't be able to go to
US afterwards but... as non-US, I would always choose such a wonderful and
welcoming country and great people over police state of US these days (as much
as I like regular US folks, the system you guys live in leaves much to be
desired)

~~~
geekifier
> as non-US, I would always choose such a wonderful and welcoming country and
> great people over police state of US these days

The US certainly has many issues, but I find calling it a "Police State",
while praising the Islamic Republic of Iran in the same sentence quite ironic.

~~~
njharman
Then educate thyself. Besides all the anedotal evidence of police
militirazation, violence, the USA has THE largest prison population in the
world and almost the highest % of population in prison, #2 (after seychelles)
with 693 per 100k. Iran is way down list at #37 with 287.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate)

Also, the way Iran is today (i.e. not the progressive democratic country it
was) is due to the UK/USA replacing elected government with a religious
autocrat.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat)

~~~
mason240
I suppose if the US simply executed criminals at the rate Iran does, we would
have a lower population as well.

We could also lower the number of people incarnated if we had public lashings
instead, as Iran does.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran)

~~~
dmix
> We could also lower the number of people incarnated if we had public
> lashings instead, as Iran does.

And hanging people from cranes in public squares...

