
Lessons from Bar Fight Litigation (2014) - apsec112
http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/2014/01/21/lessons-from-bar-fight-litigation/
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notacoward
Worth noting: participants' size, strength, or degree of training doesn't even
signify. The simple fact is that whoever gets the first shot in probably gets
the last. There _can_ be exceptions if the other person is both trained (in
the right kind of martial art) and ready, but that combination is damn rare.
So here are your options:

(1) Never visit bars, or at least limit yourself to the very top tier.

(2) Be willing to throw the first punch (kick, whatever).

(3) Be trained (again, in the _right kind_ of martial art) and be ready all
the time. That means being ready through an awful lot of false alarms, and
also taking the risk of your readiness being interpreted as escalation. Your
friends probably won't want to hang around in bars with you if you're like
that.

(4) Learn how to de-escalate potentially violent situations.

Really, having been in a few fights, I highly recommend #4. That one skill is
likely to be more useful than everything you'll ever learn in a dojo.

~~~
santaclaus
Do bar fights actually happen in this day and age? I’ve hit up bars of ill
repute around the world since before I was of legal drinking age, and I’ve
only witnessed a single bar fight between two grumpy locals in rural New
Zealand.

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dogruck
I have personally never been in a bar fight in my life.

But, yes, bar fights still happen regularly.

That said, my experience is:

    
    
      1. They are somewhat cultural.  More common in some regions/bars/demographics
    
      2. They happen more frequently as the night/drinking deepens

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dagw
_But, yes, bar fights still happen regularly._

Where are you going to find regular bar fights? Is it more a US thing, a rural
thing, a college town thing? Because despite having spent way too much time in
bars in various parts of Europe, I've basically never seen anything escalate
beyond shoving and shouting.

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dogruck
My general view is bar fights are more common when there's not a perceived
tendency of escalating into knife and gun fights. I don't have data to support
it though.

I last saw a bar fight on the north shore of Kauai. I _love_ Kauai, but locals
have told me, "there's not much else to do at night other than drink and
fight."

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steveeq1
> It seems that resolution of the dispute caused the symptoms to subside. What
> I haven’t noodled out yet is whether eliminating the stressor of litigation
> also eliminated the stimulus of psychosomatic subjective complaints, or
> whether eliminating that stressor triggered some sort of objective change in
> the person’s physical condition.

Or the client greatly exaggerated the "symptoms" for personal gain and thus
doesn't have to fake it anymore. I've had many friends/family members
reportedly fake (or greatly exaggerate) injuries, sue, and then brag about it
afterwards. It seems incredibly common in the United States.

~~~
gicadin
In the case of minor car accidents it does seem to be the common practice. I
also feel that insurance companies have raised prices so high it could be
argued that you'd be foolish not to do the same.

I live in Vancouver, Canada where the average car insurance per month is
around 200$.

~~~
steveeq1
> In the case of minor car accidents it does seem to be the common practice.

No, it's common practice that you can sue for pretty much anything, not just
car accidents. Most of the fraud that I have seen did not involve car
accidents but stupid, mundane things like slip and falls or whatever. I also
have a customer of mine that is basically a "professional victim" that
serially looks for people to sue (this lady's super lazy). I've also seen
startups almost go out of business because of software patent trolling. This
behavior is not just limited to car accidents, believe me.

> I also feel that insurance companies have raised prices so high it could be
> argued that you'd be foolish not to do the same.

It can also be argued that the insurance rates are high AS A RESULT OF many
lawyers/people are gaming a system that is easily gamed.

> that you'd be foolish not to do the same.

I'd argue that it's ethically wrong to do so.

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gumby
I find this amazing -- the half a dozen or so bar fights to which I've been
"witness" (yes, I had a dissolute period in my life) were over pretty much
immediately: one swing, perhaps a response, and that was it.

The reason I put the word "witness" in quotation marks is that in only one
case did I see the first swing being taken. Otherwise there was commotion and
I'd turn and see someone on the floor, or two guys grabbing each other and
bystanders pulling them apart.

Note I said "amazing" not "implausible" \-- my experience is only mine, and I
am sure there are those who lead a more exciting life than mine.

~~~
thaumasiotes
The article fully supports your characterization of bar fights? You seem to
think that its opinion differs from yours.

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gumby
It does seem that way from my reading: “Typically, the loser of a bar fight
who later initiates a lawsuit has been beaten up pretty badly” and fights
lasting “less than 60 seconds” (I’m thinking less than 10 seconds).

But the author is talking about ones that lead to litigation, presumably a
minority but one which is by definition self-selecting.

I also hadn’t considered people trying to get back in after being chucked out
(which does seem to happen in a surprising number of cases) as “bar fight”
though I can imagine that also leads to litigation and is all the same from
the insurance company’s POV.

In any case these days I tend to drink in a higher class of joint (excepting
Antonio’s in Palo Alto where I still go)

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Simulacra
What I've learned in 25 years on this earth is to avoid fights and conflict as
much as possible, especially physical conflict. The cost benefit ratio just
doesn't add up for me in any scenario, unless my life is on the line.

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crimsonalucard
I wonder how situations like this play out in countries where CCTV is
everywhere.

