
Elon Musk wins 'pedo guy' defamation case - doener
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50695593
======
zaroth
Obviously just speculating, but I would imagine a mitigating factor was that
Elon and Unsworth were already involved in a public spat before the tweet in
question.

I think if you tell someone to sodomize themselves with a submarine, you may
get called names in return. To then run to the courts demanding $190 million
in damages is a bit of a stretch.

Another factor could be that Musk was persuasive in convincing the jury that
he wasn’t asserting a fact that he knew was false in that tweet, but an
insulting colloquialism, which would not meet the definition of defamation (as
I understand it - and IANAL).

Ultimately how you evaluate the result is in the eye of the beholder.

It does seem to me that Musk has learned from this, and there’s been a notable
lack of controversy in his Twitter feed over the last several months.

~~~
notus
It was because you have to prove defamation and nothing bad happened to the
guy as a result of what Musk said, so hard to prove they were defamed.

~~~
dresstotheleft
In most jurisdictions there is something called defamation per se, which
automatically presumes damages.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law#D...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law#Defamation_per_se)

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akkartik
> Mr Musk told the court this week the phrase "pedo guy" was common in South
> Africa, where he grew up.

I just went searching in the obvious place, and it's almost like this was
planted for people like me:
[https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pedo%20guy&d...](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pedo%20guy&defid=13075369)

~~~
gwbas1c
Gosh, I wish I could re-read the whole with in context, now.

~~~
munmaek
> created by ElonM July 18, 2018

It's satire.

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threeseed
> And they suggested that Unsworth was looking for a payday in court

I think this is the key issue. $190m is clearly exorbitant for a defamation
lawsuit.

Shame because Musk crossed the line and an example needed to be set that
corporate executives should be held to account for their actions.

~~~
WalterBright
Just because Musk is a corporate executive doesn't mean he loses the right to
insult others.

~~~
threatofrain
The problem for me was this was right on the borderline because I was
anticipating that Elon Musk really did know "something".

~~~
WalterBright
If Musk really did know something, his insult would have included that
something.

~~~
threatofrain
I had an uncertain read because I could believe that Elon with his vast
resources knew something, and I couldn't understand why Elon would risk
complicating his leadership of his companies without some grounding.

~~~
basch
If I understand correctly, in the Ninth Circuit, the fame and affluence of the
speaker does not matter, but instead the notoriety of the alleged defamed.

------
gbronner
It hinged on whether "pedo guy" was an actual attempt to brand someone as a
pedophile, or whether it was an insult, which, at least in the US, is
protected free speech.

Looks like the jury decided the latter.

~~~
davesque
Odd considering that Musk hired a personal investigator (apparently a
fraudster) in a misguided attempt to prove that Unsworth was, in fact, a
pedophile. Kinda defeats that argument, doesn't it?

~~~
gbronner
Not really -- defamation is extremely hard to win the US, and has to be both
demonstrably false and reckless.

The fact that he hired a pro investigator (or at least one who professionally
held himself out as one) kind of makes 'reckless' hard to prove.

~~~
cookie_monsta
Didn't he hire the investigator after making the claim? That would make it him
trying to cover his ass after making an unfounded assertion, which fits pretty
well into the reckless category.

What the investigator found (nothing in this case) is immaterial. The law
should protect people from being defamed on a hunch that may or may not later
turn out to be true.

------
ddtaylor
> “I assume he literally didn’t mean to sodomize me with a submarine. I
> literally didn’t mean he was a pedophile,” Musk told jurors.

Seems to be the crux of the defense that was employed.

~~~
dragontamer
The other crux, which I'd say affects my thought process, is that Unsworth
seemed unable to prove damages. If no damage was done (or could be proven),
then Musk is innocent.

The precedent this sets is bad IMO. I wish there was some degree of damages
awarded here. But I can see the argument playing out like that legally. Like
the saying goes: no harm, no foul. If Unsworth literally wasn't damaged by
this event, then Musk has to be innocent.

~~~
TillE
It's defamation per se (he repeatedly accused Unsworth of being a pedophile),
proving damages is not necessary. I...do not understand what the jury was
thinking.

~~~
dragontamer
> I...do not understand what the jury was thinking.

Allegedly, none of the jury members were on Twitter (although they may have
used other social media accounts).

As such, the jury was quite possibly thinking "There's no way a Twitter post
could cause $190 Million in damages". They probably view Twitter posts with
disdain and don't take them seriously. In effect, they probably believe that
"a Tweet, even an untrue one, is unlikely to cause lasting damages".

------
krustyburger
This is... not the result I was expecting.

I hope Elon Musk still takes this as a learning experience despite the good
outcome (from his perspective and that of his companies).

~~~
greenhatman
The diver got away with just as much. That is, insulting someone.

~~~
pix64
There is a difference between insulting somebody and claiming someone is a
pedophile

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ggm
I'm disappointed. Money and influence defeated a just outcome. Hiring the
private investigator speaks of bad intent: Musk should not have been allowed
to claim " I didn't mean it" if he went looking for evidence that.. he did
mean it.

~~~
skuthus
How did money and influence change the outcome? Genuinely curious

~~~
foldr
Good lawyers.

~~~
widowlark
Weren't people mocking the defense strategy?

~~~
foldr
I would think the test of the strategy is whether or not it worked, not
whether or not some people were mocking it.

------
JanSolo
So the question is:

Did they rule for Elon because of some legal technicality?

Or was it because of the exorbitant defamation claim?

Or was it because Elon was correct in his claim?

~~~
WalterBright
I would have ruled for Elon simply because the plaintiff started by telling
Elon to stick his submarine where it hurts.

You don't really get to initiate crude insults and then cry to the courts when
you get one back in kind.

~~~
IshKebab
There's quite a difference between a diver insulting Musk's submarine, and
Musk, who is famous and has millions of loyal followers, calling him a
paedophile.

~~~
WalterBright
No there isn't. Men trade insults like that all the time.

~~~
variaga
In your experience men publicly declare (in writing) that other men are
pedophiles and child rapists who only move to Thailand to have sex with
11-year-olds "all the time"?

Where do you live so I can make sure to never visit there.

~~~
HarryHirsch
He's an American, they have strange notions about free speech and completely
disregard the idea of public peace. This is precisely at the heart of the
case. No one gets to be the target of a lynchmob when someone tells him to
stick a large object up his bum. But someone might well believe that someone
moved to Thailand because they have certain proclivities and join the
lynchmob.

~~~
WalterBright
You'd have a legitimate claim against said lynch mob.

~~~
HarryHirsch
The goal of the law isn't to catch criminals, it's to prevent crime. That's
why some countries really come down hard on those that would disrupt the
peace.

------
danso
Apparently deliberations were less than an hour:
[https://twitter.com/rmac18/status/1203084858630791169](https://twitter.com/rmac18/status/1203084858630791169)

------
davesque
So I guess what's the countdown now until Musk pulls something like this again
after having been emboldened to terrorize people with his money?

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onetimemanytime
Any idea why UK was not chosen as the place to sue, I have read it's easier to
win and the diver was English?

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rinchik
There are a lot more comments than upvotes to the story, it's not gonna be a
good one, isn't it?.. Sensitive!

~~~
spectrum1234
Haha. I made an app to track comments to upvote ratio. Its usual a better
interesting story indicator than anything else.

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purple_ducks
Wow, genuinely surprised by this.

~~~
CydeWeys
It's not that surprising when you consider that the British guy opened the
conversation by suggesting that Musk stick his submarine up his ass. That kind
of set the tone of the conversation, i.e. mean and figurative.

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RivieraKid
This result and about half of the comments here are depressing. How is it
possible that so many presumably smart people don't understand the massive
difference between an insult ("he looks like a pedo") and defamation ("he is a
pedo, I've actually looked into it")?

~~~
Udik
He said he was a pedo, then reiterated, then told others to "stop defending a
child rapist", then said "you don't think it's strange he hasn't sued me". He
might have been joking all along, but jokes like these have a price.

I'm a great fun of Musk, but I can't help thinking that the jury here
acquitted him only because he's a sort of American hero. Which is disgusting.

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rickncliff
Avoiding speech restrictions is always a positive in my book.

As for the larger picture "defamation" is incompatible with the first
amendment and laws around it should be invalidated.

~~~
cookie_monsta
Thankfully we have the judicial branch to interpret what was written hundreds
of years ago.

Besides, the 1st prevents the government from making laws that abridge the
freedom of speech. It doesn't give every tantrum-throwing cowboy the right to
spout off without consequence.

~~~
rickncliff
Consequences should be social, not legal.

~~~
cookie_monsta
What does that mean? Unfollow him on Twitter?

~~~
rickncliff
That is one way, don't buy his cars is another, and he can say whatever he
wants.

~~~
cookie_monsta
Are you seriously suggesting we replace the legal system with... _consumer
boycotts_ ?

Because I don't sell anything. What's to stop me from making a smear campaign
about you?

