
The Secret History of Kim Jung Il -- written by one of his high school teachers - cynest
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2008/08/12/the_secret_history_of_kim_jong_il?hidecomments=yes&page=full
======
vnorby
"Even today, long after becoming the sole supreme leader of North Korea, Kim
refuses to allow graduates of the Namsan School in his inner circle. After
all, those who have known Kim Jong Il since youth are bound to see him as
human -- not the center of a god-like cult of personality."

In the new Steve Jobs biography, Walter Isaacson quotes Steve on why he didn't
let his parents come to his school's campus: "I didn't want anyone to know I
had parents. I wanted to be like an orphan who had bummed around the country
on trains and just arrived out of nowhere, with no roots, no connections, no
background."

Interesting how powerful people manipulate the story of how they got to be
where they are. Speaking of which, I was raised by wolves.

~~~
jpdoctor
> _I didn't want anyone to know I had parents._

As anyone who is the parents of teenagers can tell you: That describes pretty
much describes a large fraction of that age group.

There is a psychological growth phase which involves separation, and that is
one manifestation.

~~~
jseliger
"There is a psychological growth phase which involves separation, and that is
one manifestation."

I wonder if this phase is actually about teen social structures and
hierarchies as they've developed in Western countries. I'm reminded of
something pg wrote in "Why Nerds Are Unpopular:"
<http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html> :

 _I'm suspicious of this theory that thirteen-year-old kids are intrinsically
messed up. If it's physiological, it should be universal. Are Mongol nomads
all nihilists at thirteen? I've read a lot of history, and I have not seen a
single reference to this supposedly universal fact before the twentieth
century. Teenage apprentices in the Renaissance seem to have been cheerful and
eager. They got in fights and played tricks on one another of course
(Michelangelo had his nose broken by a bully), but they weren't crazy._

So I wonder if a large fraction of the age group want to reject their parents
because of the way they've been raised and schooled.

You obviously didn't argue that this phase is universal, but I still find the
idea interesting.

~~~
ams6110
Historically most people had "adult" responsibilities much earlier than they
do today. At 13 or 14 many people were done with formal schooling and either
working at farming, learning a trade or "seeking their fortune." They didn't
have time to sit around wondering about the meaning of it all.

~~~
PakG1
Partly due to lifespan expectancy ages ago, that was even when they were
getting married.

------
findm
I found the article to be an interesting read but I wish that someone could
talk about the psychology, history behind why the country became that way
instead of just finger pointing on how terrible the conditions were. While its
difficult to feel any empathy towards a manipulative, despotic, authoritarian
regime, I also think that most westerners misunderstand and underestimate the
people and their situation.

The NK brand of communism is just a thin veil for the old dynastic feudal
caste society that Korea traditionally was. This is just how the country was
for over 2 millennia. The north, especially due to its easily defensible
mountainous terrain, has always played a pivotal role in keeping larger more
powerful threats from absorbing the whole. Considering its history it sheds
some light into understanding their extreme xenophobia.

Westerners always raise the question, why don't the people rise up against the
injustice? This is a culture steeped in confucianism, the patriarch is supreme
and group cohesion and harmony is of higher importance than the needs of an
individual. Even linguistically, social order is embedded into the language
with many different levels of honorifics for different rank and class.

A little off-topic but just my 2 cents.

The Caste System: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Korean_caste_system>

~~~
CWuestefeld
_Westerners always raise the question, why don't the people rise up against
the injustice?_

I think this is a fascinating question, but one that's not tied up in culture
at all. It's not just the Koreans and Chinese that have succumbed to this, but
also the Russians, Germans, Yugoslavs, and South Americans that I can't name.

In any case, your reference to linguistic differences probably doesn't hold
up.

\- - - Quote [1]

Whorf presents a moving target, with most of his claims coming in both extreme
and in more cautious forms. Debate continues about his considered views, but
there is little doubt that his bolder claims, unimpeded by caveats or
qualifications, were better suited to captivate his readers than more timid
claims would have been.

When languages are similar, Whorf tells us, there is little likelihood of
dramatic cognitive differences. But languages that differ markedly from
English and other Western European languages (which Whorf calls, collectively,
“Standard Average European” or SAE) often do lead their speakers to have very
different worldviews.

\- - - End Quote

and also

\- - - Quote [2]

...the strong version of the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis, that language determines
thought, is also thought to be incorrect. ...

Among the most frequently cited examples of linguistic determinism is Whorf's
study of the language of the Inuit people, who were thought to have numerous
words for snow. He argues that this modifies the world view of the Eskimo,
creating a different mode of existence for them than, for instance, a speaker
of English. The notion that Arctic people have an unusually large number of
words for snow has been shown to be false by linguist Geoffrey Pullum; in an
essay titled "The great Eskimo vocabulary hoax", he tracks down the origin of
the story, ultimately attributing it largely to Whorf and suggesting the
triviality of Whorf's observations.

... A recent study by Peter Gordon examines the language of the Pirahã tribe
of Brazil. According to Gordon, the language used by this tribe only contains
three counting words: one, two and many. Gordon shows through a series of
experiments that the people of the Pirahã tribe have difficulty recounting
numbers higher than three (Gordon, 2004). However, the causal relationship of
these events is not clear. Critics have argued that if the test subjects are
unable to count numbers higher than three for some other reason (perhaps
because they are nomadic hunter/gatherers with nothing to count and hence no
need to practice doing so) then one should not expect their language to have
words for such numbers. That is, it is the lack of need which explains both
the lack of counting ability and the lack of corresponding vocabulary.
Moreover, a more recent study suggests that the Pirahã have a basic
understanding of geometry despite their language.

\- - - End Quote

[1]
[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/relativism/supplement2.htm...](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/relativism/supplement2.html)

[2] <http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis>

~~~
sedachv
> I think this is a fascinating question, but one that's not tied up in
> culture at all. It's not just the Koreans and Chinese that have succumbed to
> this, but also the Russians, Germans, Yugoslavs, and South Americans that I
> can't name.

That's probably because you need to study more history.

Taking the past 200 years in Russia:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_cri...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_crisis)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_1905>
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_II_of_Russia#Assassin...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_II_of_Russia#Assassination_attempts)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decembrist_Revolt>

That's just the largest, most-well known events.

It would also help to know a bit about current events (NazBols/Other Russia
protests, the Caucus wars going on for the past 10 years, etc.).

By Germans I assume you're referencing Nazis. Where was the Nazi injustice for
the _Germans_? Given how much ordinary Germans profited
([http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Beneficiaries-Plunder-
Racial-W...](http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Beneficiaries-Plunder-Racial-
Welfare/dp/0805087265/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1324446434&sr=8-4)), it's
surprising more of them didn't support the Nazi party.

~~~
CWuestefeld
> That's just the largest, most-well known events.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The fact is that all of those
nations I listed have, at one point or another, knuckled under (collectively,
if not in the case of every individual) to a despotic government. There's no
question that the Russians were cowed to the point that they were afraid to
protest, for fear of being ratted out by their neighbors.

Are you trying to say that because _some_ people protested, it's a different
story? I that doesn't wash. For every one that stood up, countless people were
ground down (e.g., accused of being "Kulaks"[1] or "wreckers" [2]), sent to
the Gulags.

> Where was the Nazi injustice for the Germans?

It was positively rampant. If you didn't toe the party line, you were doomed.
See, for example, _Defying Hitler_ , by Sebastian Haffner [3]. Quote regarding
the latter [4]:

 _The book is carried forward by waves of contempt and disgust — for the
Nazis; for the people who believed them; for those who didn't, yet failed to
do anything to stop them; and for the German character itself — but reason is
the source of its passion. ...

The question that always springs from accounts of Hitler's Germany is "Why
didn’t the Germans resist?" Some of the reasons have long been obvious. There
is a natural human instinct for survival, however odious the forms it takes or
the lengths it may go to.

...Haffner takes it for granted that Germans knew about the brutality of Nazi
rule — brutality that, logically, would only increase as the state
consolidated its power — and that they lacked the will to resist it.

...

If by now the incidents that follow are familiar — the intimidation, the
erosion of press freedom, violence in the streets, people fleeing or
attempting to flee — it’s their novelty to Haffner that carries the book, the
distorting mirror effect of the degradation of the ideas of freedom and
individuality that should be the very stuff of everyday life. And at the
book’s end (Haffner never finished writing it), Haffner sees how easy it is to
get swept up in the spirit that was taking over Germany.

It’s announced that all law candidates (including Haffner) must, before taking
their final exams, attend training camps for ideological indoctrination and to
perform military exercises. Haffner goes off with trepidation, determined to
keep to himself lest he reveal his true political beliefs..._

Perhaps we're having different conversations here...

EDIT: Added some citations. Upon re-reading the thread, I do think we're
viewing this differently. I believe that your point is that _some_ people,
maybe many people, did protest. My point, however, is that most people
knuckled under. The questions "why did some people stand up for themselves?",
and "why were most people cowed?" are both worthwhile, but distinct.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulaks>

[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrecking_(Soviet_crime)>

[3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_Haffner>

[4] <http://www.salon.com/2002/09/03/haffner/>

~~~
sedachv
Yes, we are viewing things very differently. You're pretending that huge
groups of people spread out over vast distances in different circumstances all
act the same, just because you can assign a convenient label to them
("Russians", "Germans" etc.) and do not know about the internal processes of
the government. "The People vs The System". This is not how history works, and
it is a mistake to view it as such. Manuel de Landa calls this historical
fallacy "reifying generalities" (<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZUotjDvJyM>)

To take an example from your reply, what is the "party line"? Forget about
Rohm vs Hitler - Goring, Himmler, Speer, top Wehrmacht officers, etc., etc. -
they all had different ideas that resulted in different policies in different
times.

I don't understand your counter-argument re Germany. I said that most people
had absolutely no motivation to go against the Nazis because they were
benefiting from their rule. It makes no sense to say that they were afraid of
defying Hitler, because defying Hitler is something that never occurred to
them as a logical or possible course of action in the first place. Just like
stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork doesn't occur to you over dinner.

"Most people" don't care about minorities like Haffner. Look at the
immigration issue in the US today. In fact, people use the same logic as you
have to question "why is nobody resisting Obama?"

~~~
CWuestefeld
_You're pretending that huge groups of people spread out over vast distances
in different circumstances all act the same, just because you can assign a
convenient label to them ("Russians", "Germans" etc.) and do not know about
the internal processes of the government. "The People vs The System". This is
not how history works, and it is a mistake to view it as such._

Not at all. I'm recognizing that huge groups of people spread out over vast
distances in _similar_ circumstances, _forced upon them_ , each individually
decides that surviving by going along is the correct decision. If you don't
mind, I'd like to switch this part of the discussion from Germany to China,
just because I know the details much better.

Of course the experience of every individual is different. Some are farmers,
some are urban, some are wealthy and some are poor. Central to my point is the
fact that at some point in time, despots have put the same shackles onto all
of these people (other than their chosen supporters). If you were in China
during the Cultural Revolution, it didn't make very much difference whether
you lived in Shanghai or in the mountains somewhere. Every person in that vast
nation (one made up of many different cultures, it's worth pointing out) was
forced to submit to Party Rule.

That submission involved performing the actions that you were told (down to
performing a ridiculous dance in honor of Mao), saying the things you were
told to say. Above all, you needed to avoid any appearance that you were not
another person struggling for Communist progress. Because others needed to
prove their own allegiance, you always needed to take pains not to allow the
slightest excuse to be denounced.

It's absolutely legitimate to generalize the experience of these people. I've
concluded this not just from reading history books, but from intimate
conversations with dozens of people who actually experienced it (and hence, no
citations you can look up; sorry). So I can assure you that in at least the
Chinese case, I'm not generalizing from crappy books: I'm getting the story
directly from a diverse group of first-person observers.

It didn't matter that there was other politics going on with Jiang Qing, or
that the movement itself was a maneuver to consolidate power over other
officials like Deng Xiaoping. The fact that those other people in positions of
power had their own interests was of absolutely no concern to the Chinese
masses. There was, indeed, a single party line that everyone must follow.

Getting back to Germany...

I have less in the way of first-person reports from those fleeing Germany.
Honestly, I can only think of one non-Jewish person (if you want to leave them
out of the discussion for some reason) meeting the description. But in my
conversations with him, he makes it clear that pre-war Germany was not a nice
place to live.

So I don't think I'm guilty of reifying generalities, when so much of what I'm
think is coming not from generalities, but from individual specifics delivered
by the actual participants.

 _I don't understand your counter-argument re Germany. I said that most people
had absolutely no motivation to go against the Nazis because they were
benefiting from their rule._

This is simply false. In some ways the people did benefit from Nazi rule. The
chaos of Weimar hyperinflation was checked, they had renewed nationalistic
pride. But there are countless reasons for Germans to be motivated to oppose
the Nazis. But, for example, the economic success came at the price of
throwing women out of work, and requiring men to perform national service.
Later in the '30s it became mandatory for Aryan young people to join the
Hitler Youth. And, of course, there's the simple moral objection to seeing
one's neighbors -- the Jews, Communists, homosexuals, etc. -- treated so
badly. There were innumerable reasons for Germans to dislike Nazi rule.

 _"Most people" don't care about minorities like Haffner. Look at the
immigration issue in the US today._

Are you saying that the widespread anti-immigration sentiment in the USA shows
that people don't care about minorities? If so, I find that difficult to
believe. I see little evidence that many people object to those racial
minorities that already live and work with us here in America. The objection
appears to me to be more related to (a) economic ignorance and the belief that
immigrants steal jobs, etc.; (b) the opportunity for abuse of the welfare
system; and (c) the incorrect belief that immigrants, not having achieved
stability, are more likely to commit crimes.

To tell you the truth, I grudgingly half-agree with you that most people don't
care about minorities, at least here today in the USA. While most people give
lip service to ideas like universal human rights, that seems to be little more
than hot air. If people really believed it, there would be much less grumbling
about free trade, outsourcing jobs and manufacturing, etc.

 _In fact, people use the same logic as you have to question "why is nobody
resisting Obama?"_

I'm having trouble reading this in the same context as your comments about
immigration and minorities, since I don't see that Obama has done very much
with the status quo in those areas.

Perhaps you mean that sentence to stand on its own, in which case I agree with
you (and would also agree with you had you applied the same question to GWB).
Indeed, a more generalized writing of that question is what I'm trying to ask.
And I can provide generalities of an answer, regarding the relative values and
risks to the individual's utility function overall. But I'm interested in more
specifics, about where the lines between abstract values and material values
get drawn.

~~~
sedachv
> Are you saying that the widespread anti-immigration sentiment in the USA
> shows that people don't care about minorities? If so, I find that difficult
> to believe. I see little evidence that many people object to those racial
> minorities that already live and work with us here in America. The objection
> appears to me to be more related to (a) economic ignorance and the belief
> that immigrants steal jobs, etc.; (b) the opportunity for abuse of the
> welfare system; and (c) the incorrect belief that immigrants, not having
> achieved stability, are more likely to commit crimes.

Let me put that into perspective for you:

Are you saying that the widespread anti-Jewish sentiment in Germany shows that
people don't care about minorities? If so, I find that difficult to believe. I
see little evidence that many people object to those French and Slavic
minorities that already live and work with us here in Germany. The objection
appears to me to be more related to (a) economic ignorance and the belief that
Jews steal jobs, etc.; (b) the opportunity for abuse of the banking system;
and (c) the incorrect belief that Jews, not having achieved stability, are
more likely to commit crimes.

> I'm having trouble reading this in the same context as your comments about
> immigration and minorities, since I don't see that Obama has done very much
> with the status quo in those areas.

No, but a lot of freedom-loving concerned citizens still want their country
black, errm, back: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkmxTIUq4L0> Cheers to them
for standing up to oppression.

> But I'm interested in more specifics, about where the lines between abstract
> values and material values get drawn.

Again, let's put things into perspective with a personal example. Why are you
not at #OccupyWhatever right now? (check one or more):

* the current system works ok

* I'm too busy

* all the #Occupy people are stupid hippies

* it's not going to change anything

* don't want to get maced/arrested

* I have a job to go to/kids to feed

------
michaelbuckbee
If you found this at all interesting, I would highly recommend watching the
Vice Guide to North Korea - [http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-
travel/vice-guide-to-n...](http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-
guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3)

~~~
spodek
I would recommend _not_ watching the Vice Guide to North Korea. That series is
more about Vice (which I've read and enjoyed for over a decade and otherwise
recommend), using North Korea and their preconceptions to show themselves off,
than about North Korea (though North Korea does show through). Yes, the place
is weird, but Vice sensationalizes it out of proportion and shows themselves
off. Great for Vice, but at the expense of understanding.

My bibliography -- <http://joshuaspodek.com/north-korea-bibliography> \-- has
many sources more valuable for learning about North Korea. I found the New
Yorker pieces particularly valuable, as well as the work by Barbara Demick.

I blogged extensively on North Korea since my visit there --
<http://joshuaspodek.com/category/northkorea>. My goal is to promote
understanding, not to sensationalize. I've gotten good reviews on

\- My series on North Korean strategy --<http://joshuaspodek.com/north-korea-
strategy-preview>

\- My series on playing in the first ever Ultimate Frisbee tournament and
about sport in creating bonds -- <http://joshuaspodek.com/ultimate-frisbee-
north-korea-part-1>

To Vice's credit, their recent series on exploring the North Korean logging
camps in Siberia is more mature, though is outside North Korea.

~~~
hobonumber1
That was a great bibliography + blog about NK.

~~~
spodek
Thanks!

Please also see
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/josephferris76/sets/72157627450...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/josephferris76/sets/72157627450542765)
for _stunning_ pictures of our trip there.

Joseph is an amazing photographer. We found by treating our guides well, we
got great access (as opposed to Vice's condescension).

------
ck2
That guy strikes me as "Bridge on the River Kwai" - happens to be rarely well
educated in a crippling environment and knows the "leader" is not a good
person but to hell with that he is going to do his job as good as possible
even if it means his own destruction and furtherment of the enemy standing
right in front of him.

Evil dictators are evil - so are all the people that do their little part to
help him because they cannot find anything wrong with doing their little job
as best they can.

But so is a mindless military in ANY country who sign on to take directions to
kill other people at the behest of a single leader that they aren't supposed
to question.

------
irahul
That's an interesting and a well-written story. But yet, I find his "I pray
for Kim Jong", "I don't want him to meet a tragic end" et al. a bit strange.

I don't know, it seems like denial and rationalization. A dictator got his
family killed(possibly tortured before killing them), there is nothing he can
do about it, so he is trying to find solace by believing he doesn't want Kim
Jong Il hurt; and to justify why he thinks so, he is imagining good and
innocence, when none exists.

He is well aware of things Kim Jong Il did to his family and common masses,
and yet he is trying to imagine good in him - I can't find a rational
explanation for his line of reasoning.

~~~
rgoddard
Because in the end, him meeting a tragic end all to appease the author's anger
does no good. While if Kim Jong can open up it would have a larger and more
positive impact. Just a matter of trying to break the cycle of violence.

~~~
bostonpete
> Just a matter of trying to break the cycle of violence.

What "cycle of violence"? Hasn't North Korea been run brutally by the same
family for 50+ years? _That_ is what needs to be broken, and it's far more
likely to come to an end in a violent/tragic downfall than in a peaceful
handover of power to his son.

~~~
onemoreact
In this case the 'cycle of violence' goes back thousands of years.

------
jrubinovitz
As a computer science student, I don't really have time to read as much
material unrelated to Computer Science as I would like, so this was quite a
treat. Thanks for bravely humanizing Kim Jung Il and North Korea, and
reminding us why we need to change the world, Mr. Kim Hyun Sik (author).

~~~
askar_yu
"As a computer science student, I _don't really have time_ to read as much
material unrelated to Computer Science as I would like..."

I was a CS student who had a very alike mindset and I regret that. In
hindsight I wish I had not let the "being a CS student" mentality serve as an
excuse in my lack of literacy in other important subjects.

~~~
jrubinovitz
It's more like having to take 19 credits a semester to graduate within my
budget and working 20+ hours a week does not leave me much time for unassigned
reading, but I will take that suggestion to heart whenever possible (hopefully
during this winter break).

~~~
jbooth
Take an hour a day to read some news, the articles are typically short enough
that it's more "relaxation" than "work", and after a while you're caught up
enough on the context to understand the significance of stories and to put on
your critical thinking cap and notice agendas once in a while.

~~~
chernevik
Read _good_ newspapers, critically. Seek out good writing of views you
disagree with.

When you start asking questions the articles don't answer, shift time and
attention into books in the core subject. Even the best journalism doesn't go
anything like deep enough. Your understanding should reach a point where an
hour a day in newspapers is like taking a long walk to train for a marathon.

------
refurb
Here is a (long) story about an American who lived in SK who got a chance to
go to NK. It's an incredible read and well worth the time. His interactions
with NK citizens and his gov't minder are really eye opening.

<http://www.1stopkorea.com/index.htm?nk-trip1.htm~mainframe>

I don't know about you guys, but reading his story is really sad. It's like a
whole country, with limitless human potential, is developmentally frozen.

~~~
refurb
Probably one of this best parts of this story was when he visited a shrine to
the Great Leader:

"The next room contained more gifts from the South, including a Hyundai
Grandeur donated by the former chairman of Hyundai (whose family is originally
from the North). Mr. Huk asked me if I had ever seen one of these cars during
my time in the South. When I said, "sure, my neighbor has one just like it,"
he gave me another one of his 'you have to be lying' looks. How could such a
great gift, a gift implying so much respect, belong to some normal person like
my neighbor?"

------
fufulabs
It boggles my mind how little anyone, inside or outside, has done to change
North Korea.

Maybe i am just ignorant of how difficult it is or the attempts done.

~~~
bitops
It is easy to say that North Korea should change. What is difficult is
articulating the type of change that one would like to see occur and how to
implement it.

Should Kim Jong-Il have been ousted _a la_ Saddam Hussein in Iraq? How
dangerous would that have been, considering that North Korea has nuclear arms?
What to do in case of a conflict that spills over into neighboring countries?
What would China's take on all of it be? Would they stand idly by or back up
their Communist cousin?

Once the dictator is gone, what do you do? Let the military take over and
potentially let it establish a junta government, Myanmar-style? Or do you try
to install democracy forcibly? Would the right thing to do be to hand North
Korea over to South Korea, integrating the two countries by shotgun wedding?

The complexities quickly exponentiate. Consider the cultural shock of the
North Koreans once they're introduced to modern South Korean culture alone. If
German re-unification is any indicator, putting together two halves of a
country that have been split into Communism and western capitalism is not a
trivial task.

Also consider the cult of personality built up around Kim Jong-Il. The
situation in N. Korea could quickly become explosive once people realize the
deceit they've been living in.

So it's difficult thing to do, just by itself. All the econo-political
ramifications just make it that much harder.

~~~
InclinedPlane
Nuclear weapons barely change the equation. The best estimate is that North
Korea could begin firing around 10,000 artillery shells per minute into
densely populated suburbs areas around Seoul on a moment's notice. Even if
through some masterful and historic level of effort we managed to shut down
those artillery bombardments or evacuate the targeted areas in a mere half an
hour that still leaves hundreds of thousands of civilians dead and huge
numbers of homes and businesses destroyed. It would be a destruction on the
scale of a natural disaster such as the earthquake off Japan earlier this
year. Add in the very real possibility of North Korean nuclear weapons landing
on Seoul, Tokyo, Taiwan or maybe even the US mainland and that starts focusing
your thinking about how worthwhile it would have to be to depose the North
Korean regime.

~~~
cdk
I remember hearing that because of this all large buildings in South Korea are
required to have a shelter area able to withstand such attack.

------
yogrish
Touching story. But,author never mentioned why he changed so much and became
ruthless...not even sparing his teachers family.

~~~
lusr
Yes it's more like a collection of anecdotes that have almost no bearing on
the title.

~~~
nestlequ1k
It's interesting info. I don't think you're going to find anyone who is able
to speak with the full story. Given how locked down that country is, and how
many smart people were murdered for no reason.

~~~
lusr
Agreed; my response reads a bit dismissive, but I did enjoy the article. I
would still love to read more about the process of a (presumably innocent)
person becoming a dictator. Were they molded, and if so by what forces? How
much of it was a natural process like what happened to the guards in the
Stanford Prison Experiment?

~~~
nestlequ1k
I think the article sort of gave a better reasoning for the madness of Kim
Jong Il. Basically he became ruler _because_ he was so ruthless. His father
selected the craziest out of the bunch.

------
drumdance
I found this graphic novel by a French cartoonist who worked in North Korea to
be fascinating:

[http://www.amazon.com/Pyongyang-Journey-North-Guy-
Delisle/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Pyongyang-Journey-North-Guy-
Delisle/dp/1897299214/1)

------
bitops
This link is more browser friendly:
[http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2008/08/12/the_secret_...](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2008/08/12/the_secret_history_of_kim_jong_il)

~~~
rplnt
The first one is more human friendly though.

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rrrazdan
Its a political post so my politically loaded question should be forgiven.
Wouldn't it have been acceptable, if United States had liberated North Korea
instead of Iraq?

~~~
sethg
At the time the Bush Administration got invasion-happy, it believed that Iraq
_almost_ had nuclear weapons. (In retrospect it looks like they weren’t that
close, but let’s assume the Administration believed its most pessimistic
intelligence reports.)

North Korea, on the other hand, _already_ had nuclear weapons, not to mention
a conventional arsenal that, as others on this thread point out, can lay waste
to the South.

------
mattparlane
little hint:

javascript:$('body').css('margin', '0 200px');

~~~
MrMatters
Hmm. How long has Chrome removed the 'javascript:' when you paste into a URL
bar? I assume it's to prevent users from blindly running JS, but is there a
way to disable it?

~~~
harlanlewis
I actually rather like that 'remove on paste', default to
educating/transparency instead of blindly running. Manually typing the
prepended 'javascript:' works fine.

Don't see any settings to disable (even in chrome://flags).

Chrome's Javascript Console would also work.

------
SystemOut
Could someone edit the link and remove the "print" query parameter? It's
pretty annoying that the page pops up the print option on chrome upon loading.

------
juiced
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr9x6yLb8BY>

------
gcb
So, the dictator forbid people from his high school to join high ranks, but
this former professor boast of a dozen former students that are now in high
ranks from that same school?

pick one.

------
rokhayakebe
You have to wonder. Millions of people living under the dictatorship of one
man ( with the help of a few dozens leaders). I feel terrible for the young
women, and kids. However the rest of the population can get up and fight.
Hundreds of thousands will die, but someone has to be willing to die for the
sake of the liberty of others.

~~~
InclinedPlane
North Korea is very much a totalitarian regime in every sense of the word.
Everything flows from the state. Food. News. Entertainment. Education. Jobs.
Everything. And it has been totalitarian for around 2/3rds of a century. It's
very difficult to fight against something so ingrained and omni-present.

From without it's also difficult to imagine toppling the North Korean regime.
To do so would almost inevitably result in quite literally hundreds of
thousands of dead South Korean civilians in a matter of hours (through
artillery). And perhaps just as many dead South Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese,
or American civilians dead through a nuclear attack. That sort of cold
calculus makes it very hard to make the decision to end the DPRK regime.

~~~
spodek
Well put.

North Korea's military could easily be beaten -- if you don't mind possibly
hundreds of thousands of South Korean and Japanese killed by their missiles.
You'd win the war but lose a battle no one would consider worth losing.

You'd also have to negotiate with China first, so they know you'll stop
invading well before their border. Last time the U.S. incurred too far into
North Korea contributed to China entering the Korean War.

North Korea effectively holds South Korea and Japan hostage with its missiles.
It acts belligerently to make credible its threats to use them.

Meanwhile, the people don't know things could be better. They aren't stupid or
brainwashed. The state simply controls nearly all information entering the
country. They believe they have nothing to envy from the rest of the world and
that the U.S. is starving them. From their perspective they have no reason to
revolt.

They have no internet or knowledge of revolutions elsewhere in the world.

------
harryf
Much as it's a fascinating story my BS alarm is flashing. Is there anyone at
Georg Mason University who can confirm Professor Kim Hyun Sik actually exists?

~~~
mqzaidi
I am finding a few things hard to believe as well. In the commonwealth games,
the Indian Government rounded up beggars and sent them out of Delhi. In the
Iraq war, GWB banned the media from covering body bags. Every state is guilty
of this ,so unless the deliberate crippling part is true, it may just be
another exercise in FUD, much like the weapons of mass destruction.

~~~
spodek
The control of information and people's lives in North Korea is incomparably
more than the examples you gave. Respectfully, your comparisons are not close.

The difference is not merely quantitative.

North Korea's activity is well documented and overwhelming.

If you want independent corroboration, sources here --
<http://joshuaspodek.com/north-korea-bibliography>, particularly in the human
rights sections -- are a good place to start.

