
Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016) - tbh
https://blog.hostedgraphite.com/2016/04/26/no-brogrammers-practical-tips-for-writing-inclusive-job-ads/
======
jordigh
At my current job, we used to advertise that we wanted someone with deep
knowledge of Python, who had written their own Python metaclasses. How many of
you know off the top of your head exactly what a metaclass is and why you
would want to write one? While we did have _one_ hand-rolled metaclass in our
own codebase, it was just there, written long ago, worked fine, and didn't
need any modification. None of us actually working at the job have to think
about metaclasses on our day-to-day tasks.

By putting that very specific bit of Python arcana in our job ad, we were just
scaring away lots of potential candidates who could have done the job just
fine. They stopped mentioning metaclasses in the ad and we've gotten some
really good new hires since who are very competent, and best of all, are very
nice people.

~~~
tbh
Yep, agreed! Thanks for sharing that, nice point. Most of the work we do as
developers isn't the sort of John Carmack's Magic Numbers sort of wizardry, so
looking for more of the same sort of dev skill can be counterproductive as
you've found.

Nice people are where it's at. After all, we've gotta work together, and
someone will always be able to learn the tech...

------
happypants23
I'll add one - I immediately ignore any job ad that contains anything along
the lines of "Work in an exciting/agile fast-paced, dynamic environment",
which pretty much signals that only youngsters need apply.

Of course, if the job really is chaotic and high-stress, then that signal
should probably stay in the job ad.

~~~
kafkaesq
_" Work in an exciting/agile fast-paced, dynamic environment",_

Or they're just randomly cut-and-pasting whatever fast-sounding lingo they've
seen in other ads.

Either way, it's a negative tell.

------
SomeStupidPoint
> No ninjas, rockstars or brogrammers, please; just nice, caring humans.

I like how in a post about inclusive job ads, they still wanted to show off
that they _Exclude The Right People_.

Their cultural based discrimination is obviously correct and should be applied
universally; previous cultural based discrimination is a crime we should all
strive to avoid!

I actually enjoyed the post (and agree with most of the points about writing
job postings) and don't mean to be overly critical, I just think it's an
interesting chance to reflect on how easily these habits come to us as people.
(And so some of the language above is dramatic for effect.)

~~~
clairity
i think you might be conflating the discouragement of a behavior with the
application of an identity to people, something the article seems to try to
avoid.

hostedgraphite isn't saying they don't want competent programmers, even if
they've copped the brogrammer attitude in the past, but rather, to leave the
brogrammer stance at the door. if you can't do that, then (and only then)
don't apply for the job because you probably won't fit in (and likely as a
result, won't be as successful).

we wear different faces at different times (shout out to billy joel!), and can
discard one (or put it in the back pocket) as desired/needed.

~~~
TACIXAT
I understand that their message is "this is not a frat". However, I still
absolutely hate the pejorative usage of brogrammer. People do not use it to
exclusively refer to culture.

It is absolutely a label that is applied to people. Sitting here, I feel like
I am part of the specter of brogrammers that looms over the industry. Whether
it was their intended usage or not, I feel like this term is referring to
programmers like me.

Their job ad is not going to have the context of this blog post. Their job ad
doesn't say "no brogrammers, but we don't mean men who work out and code, we
actually mean the toxic culture of exclusivity that you would see in a frat."
Nope, their job ad just says "no brogrammers". If I saw that I would assume
that their culture would be toxic toward me.

Please stop using this term. There are people out there who feel like it
applies to them and it alienates us. I agree with OP, it is not a term that
encourages inclusivity because there is a stereotypical image of a person that
comes to mind when it is used.

~~~
clairity
i agree that it’s often used pejoratively to define people. i was not trying
to justify that kind of usage. i was simply pointing out that the article
generally uses the term as an adjective, not as a noun (i.e., it’s something
you can wear, not something you can be).

however you are right that the called-out text from the job ad uses it as a
noun, unfortunately.

i’m curious why the phrasing makes you feel it’s toxic toward you personally
(without a preconception either way on my part)?

~~~
TACIXAT
From the article:

>This is amusing and captures our opposition to Silicon Valley
rockstar/brogrammer culture

If they are saying that Silicon Valley's culture is a brogrammer culture, they
are probably talking about the culture of the dominant group there. If I
worked in that area, I would be part of that dominant group.

So, my question is how they would screen out "brogrammers" during an interview
process. I think someone looking to filter out this group would have a strong
chance of looking at me and fitting me part of it.

If it is as pervasive as they say, then it probably includes me. That is how I
see it used most of the time, describing tech's overall culture. I am part of
tech's culture, and I am a fit white male who programs. I assume that I am
perceived as a brogrammer by many people who use the term.

------
jasode
_> original: Your code will be exercised by 125,000 events every second,_

 _> revised: your contributions will be exercised by more than fifty billion
events per day_

Why does 125 __* 10^3 vs 50 __* 10^9 influence diversity hiring?

The scientific study the blog references does not mention anything about
altering numerical figures (such as altering a numerator from 3 zeroes to 9
zeroes) to be more inclusive.

Also, why is _" code"_ a taboo word for inclusiveness? Here's female Ginni
Rometty using the phrase _" lines of code"_.[1] Another female (also a non-
programmer) Mary Barra using the phrase _" lines of code"_.[2]

[1] _" New cars today have 100 million lines of code"_:
[https://www.ibm.com/ibm/ginni/01_06_2016.html](https://www.ibm.com/ibm/ginni/01_06_2016.html)

[2] _“A car today has hundreds of millions of lines of code,”_ :
[http://www.triplepundit.com/2017/07/gm-boosts-stem-
education...](http://www.triplepundit.com/2017/07/gm-boosts-stem-education-
girls-women/)

~~~
jordigh
I was reading Girl Code today:

[https://www.girlcodethebook.com/](https://www.girlcodethebook.com/)

One of the girls there describes her expectation of coding as coming from
Hollywood: indecipherable zeroes and ones, weird symbols, all very fast-paced.
When she saw that it was just "System.out.println()" to make something appear
on the screen, she realised how much more mundane this all was.

I guess this sort of suggests that "code" is some kind of secret, difficult
thing, which may be off-putting to some people. I agree that most people
wouldn't balk at the word "code", but if you can make even fewer people balk,
why not do it? The worst that can happen is that you broaden your search and
get more people applying for your job.

~~~
ng12
Still not really a gendered thing. Nobody understands how tech works until
they do it themselves.

------
sk0g
I guess I could be classified under "POC," even though I'm half white. I was
fully expecting this to be full of overly sensitive trite, but now I wish
everyone writing job ads reads this first!

The other issue is HR usually does the postings, where they just get handed
some skills and they make up random numbers and go from there. But seriously,
you don't need a Java guru that has achieved nirvana with the JVM to write
CRUD apps, so why not just advertise what you're actually looking for?

------
conductr
On the other hand, if you were going to write your job posting the pre-edit
way and the said applicant was turned off by it... will they even be a good
fit in your org? Do you want to continue editing all of your communications?

I’m kind of being devils advocate here but I do find it a drag to work with
people who can’t read between the lines sometimes and get the gist of what
someone means rather than feeling excluded by they’re word choices.

~~~
jdblair
So you actually do want a workplace culture that alienates women and people of
color?

[edit, but leaving original off-the-cuff comment] I think if your goal is to
create an inclusive workplace then editing your communications in ways like
this will be useful. I think its incorrect to think that being inclusive means
hiring people that aren't confident in their skills.

~~~
conductr
This is why I had to put the devil's advocate part in my original comment
because of this accusation. Obviously, I do not agree with purposely creating
a workplace that alienates women but it would take me much editing/censorship
and thought than I'm willing to give to make sure I don't write something in a
way that you could misconstrue my words.

I'm simply pointing out that what I am for is being who we are as individuals.
Everyone. If you exclude yourself because of the way I write my job posting,
then we probably wouldn't work well together. If I over edit my job posting
and it doesn't reflect the way I actually communicate on a day to day basis;
guess what, we probably wouldn't work well together either. Why? Because I'm
not going to edit my communication style, I'm going to be who I am.

If I'm the author of the original job posting... You're coming from the stance
of assuming that I need to be edited. My communication style is horrible and
exclusive. None of those words were offensive, obviously exclusive, etc[1].
So, I don't think I do need editing. I'm not an asshole, I work well with
women and people of all types, thus I am not going to change. However your
view assumes because I wrote my job posting that way that I am a women
alienating asshole that does not value inclusion.

I want people that can work together and not let minor communication issues
get in the way of their productivity or happiness. We should be teaching
people how to read a job posting and infer that they could be a fit and apply.
Applying is far away from accepting the job, if you sense any red flags you
will have an opportunity to explore them. Don't get held up by the job
posting.

[1] Okay - I do not agree with the use of rockstar & ninja terms

------
maxxxxx
I would replace " No ninjas, rockstars or brogrammers, please; just nice,
caring humans." with "Just nice, caring humans". "no..." sentences sound
defensive to me.

~~~
twic
You could say:

 _We value the ability to work with others over exceptional technical skills.
That is, while there is value in the latter, we value the former more._

No "no", no defensiveness, but the preference is clear.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
That's still defensive.

"Here, we place a strong focus on ability to work with others and
collaboration. Success requires teamwork!"

Don't justify your preference, just state it directly. It's not about
tradeoffs, it's that we're fundamentally doing something collaborative --
everyone needs to be on the same team.

------
Will_Parker
I honestly don't understand what any of this has to do with inclusion. Maybe
the aim is to de-emphasize competitiveness, directness, and individual
responsibility, which is fine if that's the kind of employees you want to
hire. But is there strong scientific evidence that women lack these qualities
compared to men? What if you'd like to hire people with the qualities of, say,
the Williams sisters of tennis fame?

~~~
kaybe
There is evidence that women are penalized for showing these traits. The same
behavior is seen as direct and competitive in men and as bossy and stuck-up in
women. Which is also why negotiating while perceived as female can be a very
different experience. Generalizing, of course.

It's interesting to read the experiences of trans people who have truly seen
both sides.

------
interlocutor
Can someone define what a "rockstar programmer" is and why a company would
want to not hire rockstar programmers?

Here's one definition I found:
[http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=ChrisTTT](http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=ChrisTTT)

 _A computer programmer with such strong skills and so much specific
experience that they are the equivalent of a rock star in the domain of
software. Many people play guitar pretty well, but only a few become rock
stars. These programmers can develop more software than 5 - 10 newly hired
regular programmers because they know what needs to be done and how to do it.
They also might set the architecture of the product that dozens will build
upon._

What's wrong with that?

~~~
Kluny
I'll tackle this.

\- If they are expected to do 5-10 times the amount of software development as
a regular new programmer, are they going to be offered 5-10 times the regular
salary?

\- Are all the other programmers at the company dramatically more effective
than a regular programmer? Most competent people don't think of themselves as
being exceptionally better than their peers, so if that's the case, they
probably shouldn't bother.

\- Or, are the other programmers at the company just regular ones, and the
incoming new person is expected to be more effective than all of them combined
from day one? That's a lot of pressure to put on one person. What was the
answer to the salary question again?

\- Many people who have developed exceptional skills in one area have
neglected other areas. What types of personal problems is the company willing
to tolerate for the privilege of hiring rock stars? Is alcoholism okay? How
about being sexually creepy towards co-workers, due to lack of social skill
practice? How about body odor? Not that all exceptionally skilled programmers
have these types of problems, but you have to make a trade off somewhere.
Really, how much are you paying them? Because someone who is 5 or 10 times
more productive than a normal programmer without being a socially impossible
weirdo is likely already in a job paying far more than what hr had in mind for
this position.

Is there no place for a programmer who's just basically competent and
professional and will work for an average salary? Do you want to drive those
programmers away?

~~~
Kalium
For a lot of places, the answer is yes. They do want to drive that person
away. They want someone who will do 5x the work for 0.8x the salary because
they think $TOPIC is their great calling in life.

To someone willing to burn out a promising young programmer to get their
startup to hockey-stick upwards, it's a good deal.

~~~
Kluny
Yup. And that's exactly why more experienced programmers will stay the hell
away.

------
adrianratnapala
What the heck is a "brogrammer" anyway?

It's one of those words I thought I understood just from its contsruction, but
the more I see it used by others, the more confused I get.

~~~
gertef
It means "a male working in tech who I don't like"

------
johnpython
Job postings that emphasize mandatory after-hours events especially based
around alcohol are incredibly off-putting to multiple groups of candidates
(senior engineers with families, introverts, non-drinkers, etc.). Things like
"we have a beer keg in the office", "happy hours", or "work hard play hard".

------
HillaryBriss
many of the job listing phrases suggested by this post make the company seem
more inviting, open, comfortable _in general._

i don't see these phrasings as tied strongly to inclusion of specific
underrepresented gender, sexual preference, racial or ethnic groups. many
white males who dislike brogrammer culture will find these phrases more
appealing too.

also, these phrases actually advertise for _a different type of job in a
different type of company,_ a company that _isn 't_ looking for a
ninja/messiah to save its ass and make all the critical decisions
singlehandedly, a company with a management team that _isn 't_ a gang of lazy,
entitled, technical illiterates who are ignorant about how to organize and run
a software dev operation.

in other words, this company is not just looking for a bro (sucker) to dump
all the shit on (exploit). this company knows what it's doing.

------
Paul-ish
"Evidence That Gendered Wording in Job Advertisements Exists and Sustains
Gender Inequality"[1] looks at wording of job applications effect on applicant
pool. I know there are some start-ups[2] in this area trying to automate the
process the author describes.

[1] [http://gender-
decoder.katmatfield.com/static/documents/Gauch...](http://gender-
decoder.katmatfield.com/static/documents/Gaucher-Friesen-Kay-JPSP-Gendered-
Wording-in-Job-ads.pdf)

[2] [https://textio.com/](https://textio.com/)

------
mmelaniej
It's been found that women generally look at job ads and find the things they
_can 't_ do. They will feel underqualified and not apply. I think that's the
reasoning behind taking out "several years", etc.

As a female junior software dev, I honestly would be more likely to apply to
the revised job ad than the original. So, good job to them I guess.

------
beingmyself2
Why not just skip all the weasel words and have a big "WHITE MEN NEED NOT
APPLY"? If you are looking to specifically discriminate against white males
then say so, I'm sure the potential minority candidate would be much more
encouraged to apply knowing that their major competition has been disqualified
already.

~~~
mmelaniej
The revised language is attempting to widen the applicant base.

If you consider that eliminating your chances of getting the job, I would re-
evaluate your own application not the job ad.

~~~
beingmyself2
Then what does it have to do with "diversity"? Why does the author even
mention it if the only goal is to get more people to apply? Dropping your
experience requirements in a job ad quite obviously would increase number of
applicants, why do we need an article for that?

------
Mz
For those interested, another take on using language to bring down social
barriers:

[http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/07/less-
exclusi...](http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/07/less-
exclusive.html)

