
WiPhone: A professionally-packaged Arduino phone - catherd
http://a.wiphone.io/
======
catherd
Dang suggested I post these links, as support that the project is far enough
along to merit being considered "real":

Build logs here:
[https://hackaday.io/project/159811-esp32-wiphone](https://hackaday.io/project/159811-esp32-wiphone)

YouTube videos showing the phone working:
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUi0AFZymOmszc-
LLFISStQ](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUi0AFZymOmszc-LLFISStQ)

~~~
em-bee
looks interesting, but what is the price? even an estimate would be helpful.

~~~
catherd
under $100

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shezi
Lots of comments here focus on the fact that this device is WiFi-only and not
a "real" cell phone. I find this sad. Are LTE calls really the only use case
you can think of for a device that has its source code open, has WiFi and
Bluetooth, carries an LCD, a microphone, and a keypad? How boring!

I am really excited about the wiphone, here are some of the ideas I have for
it:

* 2FA token generator

* IoT remote

* retro game console

* modern game platform (think pokedex etc)

* educational hacking

And those are just off the top of my head. Essentially, it's a wonderful
package for an ESP32 that makes creating useful devices out of that wonderful
little processor even simpler.

~~~
liamcardenas
Hmmm, I don't know. If it's not filling the function of a phone, don't market
it as one.

> * 2FA token generator

These already exist and are much more secure.

> * IoT remote

No thanks

> * retro game console

No thanks

> * modern game platform (think pokedex etc)

No thanks

> * educational hacking

Ok, I do agree it is interesting from this perspective. I get your overall
point, but I still think it's a valid criticism.

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mrb
" _it 's not filling the function of a phone_"

At the very minimum, it matches and surpasses the capabilities of a _landline
phone_ (since it works at home where there's WiFi.)

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mruts
Not really, landlines work when the power is out. WiFi doesn’t.

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tinus_hn
If you have POTS and a wired phone. Probably dependent on your location but
both are becoming pretty rare.

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markovbot
So it says all over the site that it says it's open source, but I can't find a
link to the source code.

Why are there embedded Facebook and Google tracking scripts in your site about
a supposedly privacy-focused phone?

The website doesn't the website have https.

I see a lot of claims of privacy focused and openness on this page, but not a
lot to back those claims up.

EDIT: So I guess the source code isn't available, so I'll have to ask here:
how are phone calls on this oh-so-privacy-focsed phone secured? It says VoIP,
does that mean it's SIP? Does the SIP use TLS? Is the TLS verified? is the
media encrypted? Is it end-to-end encrypted? What encryption is used?

~~~
catherd
We are in this to make money, it's not a side project. Marketing is almost
impossible without tracking and I'm not going to say I like it, but I haven't
found a way to do without it. I like open source/not tracking/privacy, but
it's not my religion. This project would be dead already if we couldn't run
Facebook ads.

The phone is for people who want hardware that can be used for hacking. We
don't have any code that does anything related to tracking in the phone, and
once it's released anyone can verify that.

That page is static, so I don't see how https is relevant.

Right now there is no security whatsoever. We are still getting the system to
work, and work reliably. If enough people buy one we will probably add some
sort of transport layer encryption.

~~~
markovbot
So the marketing emphasizes the privacy aspects of this device, yet in the
comments (not noted on the website), you state that it has "no security
whatsoever". This seems like an important disclaimer that should be given on
the website.

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dang
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone
says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
joecool1029
dang, the author includes an entire privacy section on his site about this
device. He then contradicts it downthread. Try clicking 'Privacy' in the
footer... oh right, you can't.

The website doesn't use HTTPS, includes trackers, and it might be the case
that the author hasn't figured it out that without mitigations, wifi can be
tracked just like cellular radio.

In short, it's the scammiest looking project I've seen posted to HN in a long
time. At least they aren't taking money yet so the author can continue to
shoot himself in the foot in comments.

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dang
Fair enough, but the GP comment still breaks the guideline I quoted. No? Plus
it breaks the one asking people not to snark.

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markovbot
I can edit the comment to be less snarky if that helps...

~~~
dang
Sure! I've reopened it for editing.

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neltnerb
Looks really cool, I can imagine re-purposing it as a general purpose remote
for my custom hardware. Very nice looking interface, and I use the ESP32 on
the other ends usually anyway!

What is involved in doing something like writing an "app" that would run on
the device and send wifi commands out? Am I looking at low level C++ to
interface with a LCD, or is this all in a nice API?

How do you connect an API for a smartphone to an Arduino? I assume the phone
part is running on the second core, does it have a lot of cycles leftover?

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catherd
Thanks! Yes, one of the major design motivations wasn't so much to make a
phone, but to make a nicely packaged device hackers can use at the hardware
level for other purposes (we are practically locked out of modern phones for a
variety of reasons).

Apps: The end goal is to embed a Python interpreter in the firmware, and then
it would be a matter of interacting with an API in Python. Right now it's C++.

I'm not sure what you mean by "connect an API for a smartphone to an Arduino".
Do you mean: What does the plumbing look like between the code that calls the
API and some physical pin?

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saagarjha
Can Arduino run Python? Seems a bit heavyweight for an embedded system like
the ESP32…

~~~
catherd
The ESP32 can run something like MicroPython or CircuitPython.

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dang
Please don't put "Show HN" on posts about projects that aren't out yet. It's
against the rules:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html).

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jimmies
As a person who likes Arduino very much, I have to ask: Why Arduino?

It seems like you have to design a quite complex system here with many parts
and gears to communicate and synchronize together. You'll need an OS for that
kind of work. Arduino is not the language/paradigm for that kind of
sophistication: even multi-threading will require some kind of hack.

It seems like an Arduino-phone is a development nightmare just waiting to come
out.

~~~
catherd
It's not ideal for a few reasons, but it's what most of the people who play
with hardware know, and there are lots of libraries out there for interacting
with sensors, displays, etc.

If the project gets big enough we may split it into 2 versions, one Arduino
and one with a proper RTOS.

That said, at this level using interrupts and a state machine is pretty
workable, so I wouldn't say multiple threads are a must. Would probably make
it easier for regular programmers to pick up and start developing with,
though.

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saagarjha
> If you need an always-connected phone capable of making calls from the side
> of the road or wherever you happen to be, WiPhone is not that phone.
> However, if you're like most of us, 80% or more of your time is spent near
> accessable WiFi.

So this looks like a VoIP phone? I can't see myself using this, since I still
need my phone to work the other 20% of the time…

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radicaldreamer
Yeah it’s pretty disappointing since an LTE module is cheaper than ever.

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snazz
Not requiring a service subscription is one of the selling points.
Additionally, there are no open-source cell basebands and they all allow your
carrier to track you.

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saagarjha
I see that, but I'm trying to find a use case for this that doesn't require
people to carry a regular cell phone around anyways :/

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liamcardenas
This is so cool. I will always try to support any project that takes mobile
computing/communications in a more libre, hackable, privacy-respecting
direction.

However, I don't buy the argument for WiFi only. Sure, you are often on
WiFi... But if I wanted to make a private VoIP call in such locations, I would
just use my Linux laptop (or, realistically, any computer).

The reason for having a phone like this is for essential communication on the
go -- not just to be an application specific piece of hardware.

That said, they have to start somewhere and I'm sure LTE integration is a lot
of work. It's cool just to have something like this being developed. Keep it
up!

~~~
catherd
If you give me a team that's already delivered a modern smartphone design from
scratch I'll have a tilt at that windmill. :)

For now this is a realistic goal. We'll see what happens after.

~~~
djsumdog
I don't think that's what's being asked for. What would be valuable here is
simply having a GSM/LTE radio with sim slot. I realize it would most likely be
properitery/closed source (are there open source cell antennas/firmware?) but
at least having that option would be way more useful than Wi-Fi.

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benmcnelly
Love the idea (ish) and the form factor, I am a firm believer that a small and
thinner (width not depth) form factor will be the future of phones until the
next big leap, so a lot like this form factor, but with the ability to throw
some LTE hardware in here and make a phone you can slap any pay as you go SIM
in, I just wonder why not?

Btw this is not the future: [https://techcrunch.com/wp-
content/uploads/2019/02/ezgif-4-fb...](https://techcrunch.com/wp-
content/uploads/2019/02/ezgif-4-fb57024668af.gif)

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ethbro
_> makes HD voice calls, for free, over WiFi_

What SIP gateway are they using for free, that doesn't track you or monetize
your metadata somehow?

I can't find any info on the page.

~~~
catherd
There are a number of SIP gateways that you can use for free. You'd have to
read their individual TOS and/or trust them about tracking and monetization.

One of the other guys that's working on this has a list of a few providers
that offer a free account and work with the WiPhone. I'll see if I can post it
once he's here.

~~~
ethbro
The last time I looked at this space was ~10 years ago for a hobby project, so
definitely curious if they exist.

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blaze33
But isn't it illegal to sell phones having no secret backdoors?

Edit: /s obviously ;) but open source phones for improved privacy and control
are always welcome!

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steve19
Depending on the cost I would definitely buy one as a hackable remote. For now
the esp32 based M5stack fills this role.

If someone builds a backplate with 4G I would definitely consider this to
replace my smartphone.

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cwyers
> If you need an always-connected phone capable of making calls from the side
> of the road or wherever you happen to be, WiPhone is not that phone.
> However, if you're like most of us, 80% or more of your time is spent near
> accessable WiFi.

Except the 20% of the time where I'm not near wifi is when it's often the most
useful to be able to use a phone -- when I'm on the side of the road with a
car problem, for instance.

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kaiwen1
My family of four decided to go Wifi only on our iPhones five months ago.
We've encountered a few inconvenient moments but nothing that has caused us to
reconsider and go back to cellular service. We live in an area with wifi in
practically every retail space. It's easy. Just requires a tiny bit more
overhead for planning. The payback is having no internet temptation away from
wifi spaces.

~~~
dwild
Don't you need cellular service some time when you are away? A small car issue
become a much bigger issue without a simple phone call to CAA. I can
understand avoiding data service (even more so if you have enough wifi around
you), but cellular, I think that's an actual big loss.

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jopsen
Does it have snake?

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benmcnelly
Asking the real questions here.

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__MatrixMan__
> "Micropython for user applications"

If I'm not at work, the only app I use regularly is Signal. Can anyone comment
on the feasibility of making a Signal client for this device? I'd love to
ditch my phone on the weekends and carry this instead.

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jki275
Highly unlikely you'll get Signal to run on an Arduino.

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Aeolun
I just don’t see the point to this. If I’m on Wifi I already have my computer.
Why would I need an extra phone...?

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tomglynch
Vote purchasing?

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grzm
If you suspect something like this, email the mods using the Contact link in
the footer.

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tomglynch
Thanks, done

