
What exactly is Full Stack these days? - ccachor
I don&#x27;t know if it&#x27;s just me, but I&#x27;m getting pissed off at job requirements. For example, below:<p>==============================================<p>The ideal candidate has the following qualifications:<p>Deep understanding of front-end JavaScript development using libraries such as React, Angular, etc.
Basic understanding of AWS Services, such as Lambda, API Gateway, CodeCommit, CodeBuild, CodeDeploy, and CodePipline
Expert in CSS&#x2F;HTML5
Deep understanding of development using either Python, Node, or Ruby
Comfortable and excited about interacting with clients and end users
Expertise in developing under Linux or OS X
Desire to pursue AWS Development Certifications toward expert-level achievement
Familiarity with SQL and NOSQL databases
Experience with orchestration tools such as Ansible, Salt, Chef, or Puppet
Experience with Vagrant or Docker  
Familiarity with continuous integration systems such as Jenkins or Bamboo
Familiarity with tracking systems such as JIRA
Ability to work independently and collaboratively – self-motivated, accountable, and able to offer up new ideas
Critical thinking, troubleshooting, and problem-solving talents
A balance of technical, business, and social&#x2F;emotional intelligence
Passion about learning coupled with an ability to learn new skills quickly<p>==============================================<p>Oh really!?!? So, you&#x27;re looking for a sysadmin, a backend developer, a front-end developer and you expect them to be socio&#x2F;emotionally well balanced?!<p>Is this an exercise for the hiring manager to feel better about themselves? Face meet palm, they&#x27;re trying to hire Superman.<p>Fuck the hell off.
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r-s
"Full Stack" dev here, been coding for 16 or so years. CS degree in there
somewhere.

I've used every one of those technologies with the exception of Salt (Nothing
against it, just have not used it). I don't think I am that much of a rare
breed. Some of the AWS technologies many would not be exposed too, but
learning an AWS build pipeline is not difficult if you have used competitors.

I don't think that is that crazy of a job description. If someone has focused
on breadth of skill over depth, you are going to run across most of those
technologies (With the exception of some of the AWS services I don't see that
much).

Ive mostly worked for startups and its not uncommon for me to write front end
modern javascript, build backends, orchestrate deployment pipelines and be
involved in a sales call all in a single day.

I am very far from superman. Its pretty easy to be "Ok" at many technologies.
Its pretty hard to be truly great at a single technology. I admire those who
truly master a specific technology but I learned that my strength is breadth
over depth. I am sure if a truly seasoned JS developer saw some of my frontend
code they would have lots of suggestions for improvement, but that is fine by
me. I can build stuff which meets the intended goals and generally everyone is
happy.

~~~
legedemon
Pretty much agree with what r-s has written above.Have spent 11+ years
working/consulting for mostly startups. Have used everything listed above
except Salt (Nothing against it but the Salt team should look to so some PR
and build their case) and a lot more.

For example, this job post mentions nothing about monitoring solutions like
Zabbix or centralized logging solutions like Graylog or message queues like
RabbitMQ or any of the myriad specialized data stores, etc.

------
dagw
I guess it all comes down to what they mean by "basic understanding",
"experience" and "familiarity". I am pretty inexperienced with modern web
developer, but I still have a basic understanding what the difference AWS
services do (ie I've read the description of them on the AWS homepage). I have
experience with Vagrant and Docker (ie I've installed and played around with
both and some point). I'm familiar with tracking systems such as JIRA
(although not actually JIRA).

Basically don't read too much into lists like this. As long as you've heard of
everything on the list and are good at two of the most import ones you're
probably good to go.

------
jdowner
When I see job descriptions like this, I think one of two things: (1) either
they don't know who they want, or (2) they don't know what they are making.
Part of me wonders if they are trying to convey how smart and relevant they
are. Of, perhaps, this is what happens when you write content with SEO in
mind.

My personal red flag is the 'development certification'. Most of the
certifications I have seen are more about the appearance of expertise than
having actual expertise. This is something that you almost exclusively see in
large bureaucracies, which leads me to believe that (1) -- they don't know who
they want -- is the case and they are using a scatter-shot approach.

~~~
SirZimzim
Certifications are big for consulting type jobs like the one OP described as
it helps the clients gain confidence. This description even stated that they
just want you to get it after you are hired, which is fine. Many developers
will put it off or refuse to do it so it's good to set that expectation up
front.

------
CDCollier
I see nothing here that an inept individual with a 4 year degree and an
attuned interest in the industry couldn't achieve within 10 years. Much less
if they are motivated and establish healthy habits.

I don't see bullet-proof or laser vision on the list.

Besides, wouldn't you want to know all of this? The bigger your tool set, the
better your development.

~~~
quickthrower2
But they'd need to also be read tea leaves and predict that there will be this
job ad back in 2008, so they can spend 10 years fine tuning their career and
tech choice of stacks to suit this ad, imposing CV-driven development as
collateral damage at every company they have worked for.

... Or they could have purchased 1000 bitcoins for $10. :-)

~~~
davidjnelson
Eh it just optimizes for someone with high intellectual curiosity imo
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
quickthrower2
Imagine tech stacks are lottery balls. And they ask for 6 specific ones. What
are the odds that you've picked the right balls? Unless we are talking about
quantum humans that can learn all the things at the same time.

~~~
CDCollier
Staying informed, daily, on trends and reading the latest material helps the
individual to adjust to meet the changing industry.

Study Computer Science, pick up a few languages, familiarize yourself with
various technologies, read white papers and journals, and connect with
experienced professionals in the industry. You needn't be fully prepared for
all of the requirements, you need only be cognizant of the evolution of the
industry and quick to study advancements in your field (as with just about any
industry).

~~~
quickthrower2
I think the job wants people with experience in those technologies, not just
people who have read about them on HN.

------
mvc_robot
I am a "Full Stack" engineer with 2 years of experience working for a small
company. Worked in everything of that except Ruby include ios(swift,Objective
C),android,Java,Scala,MySql,DynamoDb,MongoDb. It was frustrating at the start
and then it became a joy.But then not sure if I am good at any of those. The
same day I would be fixing a Jenkins build, write some Node and fix bugs in
the ios code base, completely normal. I am not ashamed to show off.

------
oblib
That is an hilarious list of expectations. It's akin to announcing they have
an concept for a product and no idea how to make it so you'll have to know and
do everything that might possibly be needed to accomplish it from start to
finish including the patience to address their every whim along the way.

They don't say how long they'll give you to make it but I'd bet they'll expect
it ready to ship in a few weeks or a month at most :D

~~~
TaylorGood
I just envision this drag and drop idyllic list where recruiters/HR say to
themselves "sure, why not A, B,C... and P, Q, R S T languages"

------
StriverGuy
I fail to see the issue with this post. Frankly, if you are learning and
willing to try new technologies across areas of the web dev stack you should
have a grasp on 80% of these things at least (I didn't say expertise).

What I am more surprised by is the unwillingness by many - indicated in the
comments - to explore things outside their domain.

~~~
ccachor
I'm not sure you parsed the description correctly. They're not looking for
someone with a mere grasp on these technologies.

=========================================================

* Deep understanding of front-end JavaScript development using libraries such as React, Angular, etc.

Deep understanding of means you know these frameworks and libraries well. If
you know these libraries well, you're a front end developer. The title front
end developer exists solely because people need to focus exclusively in this
area because the job is both challenging and complex.

* Expert in CSS/HTML5

Ok, not too crazy. But I wouldn't expect the Bootstrap guys to know sysadmin
tools.

* Deep understanding of development using either Python, Node, or Ruby

So in addition to deep understanding of the front end, we also want someone
deeply skilled in a general purpose programming language. AFAIK you can't have
a deep understanding without being deeply skilled.

* Desire to pursue AWS Development Certifications toward expert-level achievement

Ok, so sysadmin/devops guy.

* Experience with orchestration tools such as Ansible, Salt, Chef, or Puppet

Sysadmin/devops guy.

* A balance of technical, business, and social/emotional intelligence

Basically we want someone that can do it all. Don't let all those requirements
break your confidence. Leave that imposter syndrome at home!

========================================================

I wouldn't say it's an unwillingness. It's just not realistic. There's a
reason cardiology and neurology are separate fields.

This job description to me doesn't read as "we're looking for someone who's
handy". They want three people for one job. To me it's a bit appalling.

~~~
danieltillett
As long as they are willing to pay three salaries it should be OK.

------
flignats
The candidate that fits all these requirements wouldn't be looking at their
job posting.

~~~
legedemon
Agree.

------
godot
Is that the job description for senior level+? It honestly doesn't sound
unreasonable to assume a senior+ engineer to have experience with all of these
technologies in this day and age. Software development tools have come a long
way in the past decade and it's become possible for a generalist full stack
dev to learn about and use every part of this (not having to be an expert in
any, of course).

I'd say the more problematic part of hiring is in the interview stage, where
inevitably you'll be asked questions around binary search trees, merge sorts,
and the like. (Admittedly, I am also guilty of using such interview questions
myself in the past as an interviewer.) I find that it's actually more
reasonable to expect knowledge and working experience with all the tech tools
you listed, than actually asking about inverting a binary search tree. I don't
have good answers for what one should ask instead.

~~~
ccachor
I imagine it is a more senior role. While it's not uncommon somebody has
"experience" in those items listed, it all comes down to what exactly that
experience is. Dabbling in miscellaneous AWS services IMHO is a lot different
from someone managing 11 billion requests/day and the challenges there.

So true re: binary search trees, merge sorts, and the like. I think web dev's
need to realize their real world work has more to do with plumbing than it
does dealing with programming puzzles.

Unless you're FB or operating at web scale.

------
daedalbug
I don't think that's too bad though - I'd prefer them to clarify what they
mean by 'deep' vs 'basic' understanding, but I certainly know a few developers
with 3-5 years experience who could comfortably tick the box

~~~
ccachor
You need them to clarify deep understanding? If someone said they wanted a
candidate to have a deep understanding of jet engines, I'd expect they know
every single thing there is to know about them.

~~~
daedalbug
except we're not talking about jet engines - I was asking at what point does
basic become deep, hence the next remark referring to 'years of experience' as
a benchmark

~~~
ccachor
Really? At what point does basic become deep?

~~~
legedemon
When you stop consulting stackoverflow to find answers to your queries because
you know that you know more than the most people browsing and willing to
answer your question on stackoverflow. Or when you start answering questions
on a topic rather than just reading answers posted by others.

------
citizens
Not only would the ideal candidate have the above experience, they would also
have to be able to pass whatever interview process they have lined up.

When a company wants such a broad skillset/range of experience, how would they
interview for it?

Unrelated edit: I looked up the job post, and one of the listed benefits is "2
weeks paid vacation". Personally I would need more time off to decompress from
constantly being pulled in different directions.

------
SanjeevSharma
This person does not exist. It is a myth created in Silicon Valley. What 'Full
Stack' should really mean is someone who can learn new technical skills real
fast. Someone with a passion for learning and implementing what she learns. In
an ever-expanding technology scope, it is really impossible to know it all,
but one can be on a journey to be curious and learn the skills that the job
needs.

------
lothiraldan
IMHO, a Full Stack developer would be someone able to bootstrap a project on
his/her own. He/Her doesn't need someone else to have an MVP in production.

But I agree that the job requirements you gave as an example are insane, you
can't be an expert in every stack of a product. At least not with the current
implicit age requirement of the industry.

------
tobaschco
What do you expect from a job these days?

"Has skills in a single area"?

To be honest, it's not that hard to gain a bit of familiarity with all this
tech.

~~~
ccachor
See my reply above...

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romanovcode
> sysadmin (devops), a backend developer, a front-end developer

That's basically what full-stack means. I don't get what's your problem with
this is.

~~~
ccachor
My understanding of full stack is frontend + backend web development.
Sysadmin/devops is it's own discipline.

------
gtw_jj_2
When I see something like that I just run away and don't look back.

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quickthrower2
But but they have a ping pong table and infinite vacay!

------
davidjnelson
Lol idk if you’ve been doing this stuff for 20 years you’ll have those skills
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
ccachor
Probably except this one: A balance of technical, business, and
social/emotional intelligence.

More than likely someone with this sort of technical capacity doesn't score
well in other areas.

~~~
legedemon
Have to disagree a bit. If you aim to have this level and breadth of skill
over a n-year period where n<5, yeah, your personal and social life would
suck.

But if this is built over 5+ years by reading, doing and learning from others
and teaching others while understanding what level of abstraction/detail meets
the current and future business requirements reasonably well, it's not that
difficult or rare.

