
Ask HN: Starting a CS degree at 28? - miguelrochefort
At 21, I started a CS degree but quit after just 1 semester because I already knew how to program and didn&#x27;t think I would ever need the piece of paper.<p>Today I&#x27;m 28, I have 4 years of experience as a mobile application developer, and I recently quit my job to travel and &quot;find meaning to my life&quot;. Spoiler: I didn&#x27;t.<p>I&#x27;m now considering going back to school to get a CS degree. I always worry that my lack of degree will&#x2F;does hurt my career. I&#x27;m Canadian and can&#x27;t get a visa to work in the US, I can&#x27;t work in some companies, I can&#x27;t get some promotions, I always have to work harder to prove my worth, etc. It doesn&#x27;t help that all of my family and friends have at least a Bachelor&#x27;s degree.<p>I have many questions&#x2F;worries:<p>- I would (hopefully) graduate at 32. Then what?<p>- What doors will the degree open? Will I still care about those then (i.e., trying to get a job in the US at FAANG).<p>- How much work is a CS degree for someone who&#x27;s already a programmer?<p>- Can I both get a CS degree and work full-time?<p>- What&#x27;s the opportunity cost, in time&#x2F;money&#x2F;experience?<p>- How likely am I to complete the degree, given that things in my life could change (opportunities, disease, motivation, depression, passion, love, children)?<p>- Should the excuses I attribute to my lack of degree be attributed to something else (mental barrier, low confidence, imposter syndrome)?<p>- Assuming the most important part is to have a Bachelor&#x27;s degree, and not necessarily a CS degree, should I study something else in which I would actually learn something useful (as opposed to learning things I already know)?<p>- Are there different career paths in which I won&#x27;t have to worry as much about my lack of degree (i.e., freelancing)? Are they sustainable?<p>- Is there a shortcut to get an accredited Master&#x27;s degree without getting a Bachelor&#x27;s degree?<p>What would you do in my situation?
======
Someone1234
Reads like "travel and find meaning to my life" version 2.0.

You're currently doing something you dislike. You want to stop, go take a
bunch of years out studying (something you previously hated), only to return
almost exactly to where you started. The implied expectation being that you'll
be happier when you get there...

See I don't get it. You're already employerable, a degree won't move the
needle too much, just give you a debt boat-anchor meaning you'll less flexible
going forward and less able to find the thing that makes you happy.

In general I think CS degrees are great. But in your case it seems needless
and like you're repeating recent mistakes, like you want to check out for
another few years while you discover yourself.

I'd strongly recommend you think extremely carefully before you indebted
yourself to student loans. If this plain fails, you're stuck in those jobs you
hate for tens of years while you pay it off.

~~~
miguelrochefort
> Reads like "travel and find meaning to my life" version 2.0.

I don't expect to learn anything from that CS degree, or find meaning to my
life. I would do it exclusively for the piece of paper. I would likely do it
online, do the bare minimum work, and not network with other students/teachers
at all.

> See I don't get it. You're already employerable, a degree won't move the
> needle too much, just give you a debt boat-anchor meaning you'll less
> flexible going forward and less able to find the thing that makes you happy.

I'm employable, but I don't get to be picky in what I work on. A lot of doors
are (I think, I could be wrong) closed to me because of my lack of degree.
There are not jobs I ever thought I would want (banking, government,
management), but I can already feel that I might seek these things when I get
older with a family and kids and a need for security.

> I'd strongly recommend you think extremely carefully before you indebted
> yourself to student loans. If this plain fails, you're stuck in those jobs
> you hate for tens of years while you pay it off.

What if I could get a degree in 3 years for $10,000? Would your advice still
stand? This might actually be a possibility.

~~~
Someone1234
> What if I could get a degree in 3 years for $10,000? Would your advice still
> stand? This might actually be a possibility.

I suppose it makes the boat anchor smaller. I'm not really sure how you'd get
a degree for $10K though.

~~~
jki275
I haven't paid any attention to BS degrees in a lot of years, but GA Tech
offers their MSCS online for about 7k.

~~~
Jtsummers
That’s $7k for 30 credit hours. A bachelors is on the order of 120-140 for CS.
Even at the same $/hr rate, you’d be paying 4x the cost ($28k+).

~~~
jki275
That's a fair point. Generally grad credits are 2-4 times more than undergrad,
though GA Tech is not adhering to that model.

------
gulato
Maybe this isn't the type of answer you're looking for but …

Today I am 44. I started my CS degree at a Canadian university at 38. I was a
self-taught programmer, but had never worked in industry.

\- What doors will the degree open? Will I still care about those then (i.e.,
trying to get a job in the US at FAANG). I don't know the answer to this. I'm
eligible to work in the US through another method so I never looked in to it.

\- I would (hopefully) graduate at 32. Then what? I graduated at 44 and found
a job immediately. Maybe not a sexy job with a ping pong table in the break
room and beer on Friday, but it pays.

\- Can I both get a CS degree and work full-time? I worked full-time, except
for in the final year, I worked 22.5 hours for the final push. That said,
scheduling everything was … hard. I couldn't find a way in Canada take an
entire CS degree online (except Athabasca, and I was not interested in a
degree from that school). So attending classes, mostly during business hours
is required. If you don't have a job with flexibility in scheduling you will
use a lot of vacation time. Sleep was minimal throughout.

\- What's the opportunity cost, in time/money/experience? Only you can answer
that. What else is going on for you? What are you going to do with the degree
when you're done?

\- How likely am I to complete the degree, given that things in my life could
change (opportunities, disease, motivation, depression, passion, love,
children)? Again, only you can answer that. Does taking 3-4 classes a term and
working 40 hours a week sound like something you can do? I would work, in one
form or another, from 6am-10pm for months on end.

I would say only the first 1.5 years worth of classes was easy for someone who
could program. After that things weren't really programming directly anymore.
Once the higher year classes started I was able to aim my projects to things I
didn't know, or things I knew (depending on how busy I was that school term
and how much effort I wanted to put in to a particular class)

~~~
miguelrochefort
This is exactly the type of answer I'm looking for.

> I graduated at 44 and found a job immediately. Maybe not a sexy job with a
> ping pong table in the break room and beer on Friday, but it pays.

Before I recently quit, I had a job. The same job a CS degree holder would
have (all my coworkers had CS degrees). There was even a ping pong table and
beer taps on Friday. Getting a job is not what I'm worried about. Getting the
flexibility to work in many roles at any company in any country is.

> I worked full-time, except for in the final year, I worked 22.5 hours for
> the final push. That said, scheduling everything was … hard. I couldn't find
> a way in Canada take an entire CS degree online (except Athabasca, and I was
> not interested in a degree from that school). So attending classes, mostly
> during business hours is required. If you don't have a job with flexibility
> in scheduling you will use a lot of vacation time. Sleep was minimal
> throughout.

I'm considering a completely online CS degree. I don't think I would be able
to physically attend school, the commute alone would kill me. I've always
preferred to learn things on my own, outside of class, and never attended
optional lectures.

> What are you going to do with the degree when you're done?

Right now, I think I would apply to FAANG or other US tech companies. I expect
that working there for 5 years (if that's even possible with a TN visa) would
more than make up for the opportunity cost of going back to school. But I
don't know if the plan will hold by then.

> Does taking 3-4 classes a term and working 40 hours a week sound like
> something you can do? I would work, in one form or another, from 6am-10pm
> for months on end.

This sounds like hell. I imagined that 5 classes would take closer to 25 hours
a week. How much knowledge of CS did you have prior to taking these classes?
What takes the most time? Are lectures long? Are there a lot of homework? Big
team projects/labs? Maybe my expectations are skewed.

Congrats on finishing your degree. Your perspective is very useful. Thank you.

~~~
jki275
5 classes is 15 credit hours. That would generally be about 50 hours of work
per week bare minimum, more for some classes.

I'm in GA Tech's MSCS now. I watch lectures and write code until midnight
every single weekday. I generally study/watch lectures/code from 6am to 10pm
both days on weekends. I take a day off work every now and then to finish up
particularly nasty assignments. That's for two classes. I'm taking the hard
classes, but the easy ones aren't that much easier. There is a ton of homework
-- that's all they can use to evaluate you.

You need to manage your expectations here -- an online degree is harder than
one in residence.

~~~
jnbiche
> You need to manage your expectations here -- an online degree is harder than
> one in residence.

Are you counting commute time? Because for many people, that adds on an
additional 10-15 hours a week.

You have none of that with online classes.

~~~
jki275
If you're working, you're commuting for your job. Commuting doesn't go away
unless you're independently wealthy and can sit at home and not work.

~~~
jnbiche
Yes, but going to university usually involves _extra_ commute. Rarely do
people live within a short walk or drive to both their work and a university.

Also, I've _definitely_ not independently wealthy, but have worked remotely
for 2 of the last 5 years, with no commute.

~~~
jki275
I'm not really even sure what you're trying to argue. Driving isn't difficult.
Everyone does it. Good for you you've got a remote job I guess.

~~~
jnbiche
So the worker that commutes 2 hours a day, and the worker that commutes 10
minutes a day? Same thing?

You implied above that it doesn't matter.

If you really don't understand what I'm trying to argue, then I'd suggest
reviewing your responses to me in this thread.

Also, no, once again, everyone doesn't commute (and the remark about the
difficulty of driving is a total non-sequitur). And many people only commute a
few blocks. That makes a _huge_ difference in life quality. If you don't
understand why, do the math.

~~~
jki275
If you are commuting to work in one direction and school in another, you've
made poor choices in where to live, work, and go to school.

That wasn't the point. You're blathering about things that don't matter to the
discussion.

------
ThePhysicist
28 is not “old” by any reasonable standard, I know many people that started
studying at that age and that do fine.

One thing I’d like you to consider is going to Europe for your studies, e.g.
to Germany, Switzerland or one of the Skandinavien countries. There are
excellent technical universities there (e.g. TU Munich, TU Delf, ETH Zürich
but also many others that are easier to get into). Most of them charge only
nominal tuition (in Germany 100-300 € per year) so you will save a ton of
money as compared to the US. Most of them also offer programs that are
entirely in English so you don’t have to learn some weird language like German
;) (would be great if you want to of course). And it will give you experience
of living abroad, which can be valuable as well. Since you said you were
traveling I assume you have the freedom to go and live abroad for a while, so
I’d say it’s a valuable experience and a good investment.

Please be aware that a typical CS degree is not (much) about programming but a
lot about math and abstractions. There are other degrees that focus
specifically on software engineering and that might be a better fit for you
from what you wrote.

~~~
ascar
adding to that: A CS degree in Germany takes regularly three years not four.
So you save one year. The time you save mostly comes from a faster ramp up in
the beginning and less electives in the end compared to the US. Our Master
degree programs take usually 2 years and are mostly electives and research.

It's also very easy to work 20hours/week as a "working student", especially at
TU Munich, because there is basically no mandatory attendance. More than 20
hours a week is not allowed due to student visa regulations, unless you get a
work visa (more difficult without a degree and you need a job offer).

> _Is there a shortcut to get an accredited Master 's degree without getting a
> Bachelor's degree?_

Some universities in Germany actually allow that with enough work experience
and maybe a few courses as additional workload. I don't know more than that
it's theoretically possible though.

------
ghufran_syed
It sounds like you are really trying to figure out what direction to go next,
rather than specifically asking about a CS degree. I have been in a similar
position several times in my life, and found the following two books helpful:
"What color is your parachute?" by Richard Bolles and "What should I do with
my life?" by Po Bronson. The first is more of a manual to work through to help
you figure what _you_ want, and where you might find it. The second is
basically a bunch of true stories about people who faced the same kind of
question, and what they did - it's NOT a manual on what to do,I think of it
more like a "peer group" \- psychologically it's helpful to see what other
people did and didn't do in these situations (spoiler -there is no 'right'
answer, but there are some useful principles that might help you narrow down
your choices)

If at some point you do decide that doing a (CS?) degree might be useful, get
in touch - I am currently studying for another degree in my 40'swhile working,
with several family members doing online CS degrees while working

------
ention
In your situation, I might look to do the degree part-time while working.

What do you perceive to be the downsides of the degree from Athabasca? I only
ask because here, people don't really care about the institution, unless
you're going for jobs in graduate programs at the big companies.

I made the choice to go back to school to do a Bachelor's degree in CS, and
graduated at 31 a couple of years ago, but I already had a couple of other
unrelated degrees. I'm lucky in that I did not have to worry about the
financial side of things, and don't have kids to worry about. It was an
accelerated program through an Australian university, but done externally
through my home country. I initially did my CS degree part-time in the
evenings after work, and then went full-time for the last bit so that I could
concentrate on the really difficult things - operating systems programming and
the final year group project. On hindsight my degree was nowhere close to
being as rigorous as I would have liked (we didn't do the calculus or crazy
math that people have mentioned) but I did appreciate getting time to work on
programming, having had very little experience before that. There are loads of
opening for developers in my country, your situation might be different. If
you're a citizen or permanent resident, as long as you have the ability to do
the work, even a diploma would be sufficient, it will be dead easy to find a
job. The deficiencies in my course have not been a problem yet in terms of
finding a job. I don't regret my decision - I am now working full-time in a
startup that does very interesting work. It pays decently, but of course
nowhere close to Silicon Valley levels. I'm not at all interested in finding a
job there, based on what I've learned from friends.

------
ascar
> _should I study something else in which I would actually learn something
> useful (as opposed to learning things I already know)?_

Unless you did intensively study computer science while programming, it's not
something you already know. At my university programming is less than 20% of
the content of the computer science degree. You won't learn a lot of practical
stuff in an (academic focused) university, but the theory and grand scheme
behind how software works. From assembly, over automata theory and higher
math, over operating system theory to the OSI network model. Additionally you
will/can study the management and organisational side of software: designing,
planning, managing. You usually don't use all that stuff directly in work, but
it's a valuable background for reasoning.

Maybe you studied all that on your own, then it's probably only a piece of
paper that might open doors for promotions or it might not. But you most
certainly haven't learned most of it while programming.

------
decasteve
I started my programming career at 17. Suffered burnout at 21. Went to
university for a year but was offered a job that was too good to pass up. So I
left and didn’t return to school until I was 30.

I took 2-3 classes per semester plus spring and summer courses through
correspondence. I continued to work (freelance/consulting) during that time.

My degree is an Honours Math degree (no minor), but took a few upper level CS
courses, linguistics, classics, and a few other electives which were all very
rewarding in terms of academic experience.

I had in mind to pursue a PhD but I’ve been successfully freelancing since
graduating.

It took me at least a year or two of asking the same questions you are before
I finally made the decision to start taking classes again. I was in a good
situation financially so that wasn’t a hurdle. In the end I felt it was just
something I had to do.

------
oldprogrammer2
Beyond the cost/benefit analysis, and apart from the programming element, are
you up for 3 semesters of calculus, linear algebra, and discrete math, and
differential equations? Are you prepared to start calculus in your first
semester (you have a working knowledge of functional algebra and trigonometry,
right)? If not, you will need extra time to level up your math skills before
you can advance very far, possibly stretching your time to finish out by
another year or two.

~~~
miguelrochefort
I did most of those already back in 2011-2012, except discrete mathematics.

It's been a while since I've used algebra and trigonometry, and I suspect I
would need to re-do most of these classes, but I imagine it should be easier
than the first time.

~~~
50
I suggest you complete your lower division courses at a community college then
transfer to a university for your upper division courses. You'll save a lot of
money doing so. It sounds like you might have some of your general education
courses done and you'll just need to complete computer science lower division
perquisites for those upper division courses. This is all assuming the
Canadian undergraduate academic pathway is similar to the United States's.

I just completed my associate's of science degree in computer science at a
community college at twenty-three-years old (I spent five years going to
community colleges after high school graduation - mostly just taking
exhausting all the courses that seemed interesting) and now I'm transferring
to a university this fall to complete my bachelor's of science. Unfortunately,
my grade point average isn't too hot so I'll mostly likely attend a state
school, i.e. San Francisco State University - I hope the job opportunities in
that regard will still be wide.

P.S. I took discrete mathematics (it's called discrete structures where I took
it) a few years ago and it was interesting and fun, despite doing poorly on
counting/probability. This textbook covers most of what you will learn in that
course:
[http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/aspnes/classes/202/notes.pdf](http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/aspnes/classes/202/notes.pdf)

------
limeblack
Start at a community college with Calculus 1 & 2\. Linear Algebra(depends on
the school reqs). Engineering Statistics if they offer it. And Maybe a CSC
class or 2. If you can't get through those classes it likely doesn't make
sense to take out additional loans. I majored in something different because
of the Math requirements. Information Technology may be a better choice if you
struggle with Math.

~~~
miguelrochefort
I already did calculus and linear algebra, before and during my first semester
at University back in 2011-2012. I didn't attend any lecture or put much
effort into it, and I got bad grades (although I passed). I don't remember
anything about them, and I might have to do them again (I'm not sure if
they're transferable).

I have enough savings to pay for university in my home province without taking
any loan.

------
arandr0x
Will you want to move to California at 32? It's kinda old to be starting over
in a brand new place with no friends, high cost of living and terrible traffic
(as well as about zero dating prospects). I mean usually 32 is the kind of age
where you care about more than money.

OTOH there are plenty of places in Canada where you can go to university in-
province for not a lot of money, most of the classes are online, and Canadian
employers care more about degree than US ones. (But... if you eventually want
to move to the US... does that matter?)

There are ways to achieve the move to the US part without the degree part, of
which the two easiest ones are probably find a job at a multinational, get
transferred, apply for green card and start vacationing in the area you
eventually want to live, meet a nice girl, marry her, go join her family. Both
would take years but so would getting a degree, so really, the only advantage
of the degree is with it you can apply to FAANG internships.

> Can I both get a CS degree and work full-time?

Yes.

> How likely am I to complete the degree, given that things in my life could
> change (opportunities, disease, motivation, depression, passion, love,
> children)?

> What's the opportunity cost, in time/money/experience?

>Should the excuses I attribute to my lack of degree be attributed to
something else (mental barrier, low confidence, imposter syndrome)?

That's something only you know.

> Is there a shortcut to get an accredited Master's degree without getting a
> Bachelor's degree?

Not really. There are ways to get a MS degree is a different field than your
BS, or to get a MS degree if your BS GPA doesn't meet the degree program
requirements, but I don't know anyone who'se done it with no degree.

> Are there different career paths in which I won't have to worry as much
> about my lack of degree (i.e., freelancing)? Are they sustainable?

I know people who freelance and have no problem making a living doing so,
including some people who have always been freelancers. It depends what your
professional network looks like.

~~~
miguelrochefort
> Will you want to move to California at 32? It's kinda old to be starting
> over in a brand new place with no friends, high cost of living and terrible
> traffic (as well as about zero dating prospects). I mean usually 32 is the
> kind of age where you care about more than money.

It was extremely appealing at 21, and I still would not hesitate to do it
today, but I'm not sure I will at 32. I now see it as a get-rich-quick scheme,
so that I could retire earlier. I still can't believe the salaries people are
earning there.

> There are ways to achieve the move to the US part without the degree part,
> of which the two easiest ones are probably find a job at a multinational,
> get transferred, apply for green card and start vacationing in the area you
> eventually want to live, meet a nice girl, marry her, go join her family.
> Both would take years but so would getting a degree, so really, the only
> advantage of the degree is with it you can apply to FAANG internships.

These almost seem more problematic than getting a degree.

> I know people who freelance and have no problem making a living doing so,
> including some people who have always been freelancers. It depends what your
> professional network looks like.

I've considered freelancing, but I'm not interested in marketing or sales.
Working for an employer that takes care of all the paperwork seems like an
overlooked luxury. A lot of people are happy to go back to a stable full-time
job after freelancing for a few years.

------
vldx
Some commenters are mentioning that you can’t pursue MS w/o having BS. This is
not true — it’s possible.

I’m pursuing master’s at the moment and I don’t have bachelor’s. It’s from
red-brick university, part of the Russell Group. The program is online/remote
and it’s suitable for working professionals. To meet the entry requirements I
had to prove ~10 years of industry experience, incl. gather glowing
recommendation letters from c-level execs.

@OP — I was in similar situation as you and I enrolled when I was ~29 years
old. I don’t regret my decision. I can hit you up on mail if you need more
details.

~~~
miguelrochefort
I'd love to chat with you.

I don't have 10 years of professional experience, nor glowing recommendation
letters from c-level execs.

------
colek42
Graduated at 31 from a no name University. Found a job 3 months before I
graduated for over 100k in the middle of nowhere in North Carolina. Now I work
remotely and don't ever really worry about money. It was tough juggling life
work and school, but worth every second. Just make sure you get a good
internship and code as much as possible on your own. If possible try to
combine existing skills with your new skill set. If you were in health care,
getting a job writing software for that industry will get you much more
success.

------
nextos
If you have savings to support yourself, you could try applying to some good
EU schools with free tuition.

Some Scandinavian ones come to mind specializing in pretty cool stuff (e.g.
formal methods) that might become trendy in the future, is intellectually
rewarding and secures yourself a position in a niche.

You could also easily land a part-time tech job there while you study, but
student lifestyle is pretty cheap.

------
jki275
A CS degree will open some doors for you that would have been closed without
it. It will likely open up higher top end salaries eventually.

Yes, FAANGs are easier to land with a degree than without.

I got my degree and worked full time. It took me twenty years. YMMV.

No, in general you must have a BS in order to apply to any MS program that is
worth anything.

------
EnderMB
When I was at university, there was one guy that came along to study sessions
who was getting his degree part-time. He was already a software developer,
writing embedded system software for a defence company, so he was already an
established programmer. He was getting his degree in CS in order to complete
his body of knowledge, and to try and open up other career avenues for him.

He'd been studying for four years already, and was in his final year of doing
it part-time - working four days a week, and studying one.

To answer your questions from what happened to him:

* This guy left his job after graduating, because his department was closed, and he ended up joining a startup. I'm not sure if the CS degree helped him there or not.

* I can't speak for this guy, but the work he does now is in stuff we learned at uni, and not stuff he was doing before. In terms of FAANG, it's hard to say because a degree won't guarantee you an interview. I have a CS degree, and I've applied to each FAANG company, but haven't ever been offered an interview.

* I remember asking this, because I wanted to be a Web Developer, and he said that he found it easier to learn how before learning why, because when he learned the theory he could put it into action without confusing the subject. * No idea on opportunity cost. I think a lot of it depends on the CS curriculum you'll be following.

* I'd say so. It's why this guy said he studied for his degree part-time.

* In my experience, a lot of places that want a graduate don't particularly care what the degree is in, so it's up to you. I've worked with capable programmers with all sorts of unrelated degrees, from philosophy to medicine to art history. With that being said, I've never worked at a company with degree requirements that wouldn't interbiew an experienced developer with no degree.

* Arguably, a degree isn't relevant. If you're already a capable programmer, you shouldn't need a CS degree to continue what you're doing.

* It depends on where you are from, but it can happen. One of the guys I used to do BJJ with has a doctorate in physics (from a good university) and no bachelors degree, based on previous work experience and a prior working relationship with a professor. It seems very rare, though, so I wouldn't hinge any bets on getting a masters in CS unless you can point towards significant contributions to the field in your previous work.

------
WestCoastJustin
Flip it around. Is getting a BSc going to hurt you in any way? Opportunity
loss? Debt? Missed opportunities? I'd look at it from that angle.

Biggest advantage I can think of as being a Canadian + BSc would be that you
can use the TN visa provision of NAFTA (USMCA), and make 2X+ what you would in
Canada (living in the States). This opens you up to working at
Google/Amazon/Facebook/Apple/etc. I'm not sure where you live, but in
Victoria, BC, where I live most regular tech jobs are 60-90k CAD but in the US
you can easily make 120k+ USD. So, that is 2X+ with the currency conversion.
But, cost of living might be more too, plus the whole work life balance thing.
Money isn't everything! Sometimes it is nice to make less money, have less
stress, and be able to do stuff on the weekends. I'd suggest working while
going to school too (if you go that route).

Starting your own business and remotely contacting to companies in the USA
could work too (without a degree). You are basically working for yourself, so
a degree doesn't matter, as you are just working off your skill level. You can
also charge in USD and live in Canada. The best of both worlds. You can use
the "professional services" provision of NAFTA to only pay taxes in Canada.
You cannot do any work in the US though. Might be worth researching if you are
into that. This is high risk though as you are totally self dependant and
running your own company. But, high risk / high reward.

Another option, without a degree, is you can just as easily spend 6-12 months,
while working, and build an awesome on-line portfolio that would probably make
you stand out more than a BSc would. This will get you jobs too. Then you will
totally stand out. Obviously this is not a quick trick but can pay off huge.
Plus, you'll have people offering you jobs vs you hunting for them. But, this
takes time too, a long time, and needs some planning, but is well worth it.
This has worked well for me but took a few years of building.

Those are the three things I have seen people do. It highly depends on your
appetite for risk and your goals. So, I cannot really say what might work. You
don't want to spend 4 years, plus tons of money, to be in the exact same
place. So, I'd create some type of long term goal of where you want to be, and
then shoot for that. If you search HN there are many threads on this topic too
with good advice. Use [https://hn.algolia.com/](https://hn.algolia.com/) and
search for things like Degree, Bachelor, etc. I have seen at least a half
dozen over the years.

~~~
miguelrochefort
I deeply regret not getting the degree early, mainly because of the insane
salaries (and prestige) of companies like Google/Amazon/Facebook/Apple. It's
closer to 3-4x the salaries I've had here. I love the US, and I would not have
hesitated to work there if I had a degree.

Will that remain true in 4 years? Will getting jobs there be more difficult
because of saturation/competition? Will getting jobs there be more difficult
because of my age? Will the NAFTA clause still hold? Will I still want to live
away from my friends/family then? What if I have a wife and kids? Will my
cost/standard of living be as low as it is today?

Investing 4 years in school for opportunities that may disappear in the future
seems quite risky.

The degree will also seem like a waste of time/resources if the demand for
developers keeps going up, if degrees stop becoming hard requirements, if I'm
not interested in managing roles, if I'm not interested in
big/conservative/governmental companies, if I start a business and become
self-employed.

I really can't tell which strategy is best from a regret minimization
framework point of view.

I've been on HN for years, and browsed through
[https://hn.algolia.com/](https://hn.algolia.com/) results earlier today (not
all of them). Every person has a different situation, and I don't perfectly
relate to people who live in the US (where I feel opportunities are greater
for those without a degree), to people who are younger, to people who truly
lack CS knowledge, to people changing career, etc. I read a lot of
contradicting advice, and I'm more confused than when I started.

If someone could assess each of my questions/worries, that would be most
helpful. I would also love to hear whether people who were in my situation
regret their decision or not.

I really don't want to come back here in 4 years, and post the same Ask HN.

~~~
gamechangr
If you have your heart set on FAANG, you should certainly go to school and get
a strong foundation in everything CS to has to offer. Go to the best school
you have access to and supplement that with online learning.

Good news - it's easier than it used to be to get a job at FAANG companies. I
have friends that started at google and they unanimously agree that it's
easier now than it used to be to get a job offer. Some of that has to do with
the size of the workforce (as in some of these companies need 5,000 more CS
grads than they used to need).

Age should not hold you back. There are plenty of 35 year old programmers.

Degree value is undoubtedly going down, but it's still extremely valuable at
FAANG like companies.

It's not a waste of time. You will for a fact learn some new things. It's not
the best use of your economic opportunity in the short run. Letting go of 4
years income is something you should not do lightly.

Do it if you can afford to do it. After all, learning as much as possible has
some value just for the sake of it.

We all have different dreams. Be the last to give up on yourself.

------
zapperdapper
> I recently quit my job to travel and "find meaning to my life". Spoiler: I
> didn't.

Wherever you go, there'll you be.

> I always worry that my lack of degree will/does hurt my career

I doubt it's that holding you back.

------
mk926
I started learning CS at 24, that made me left my hometown, got a job at big
city, and settled down there, even made me got a job from Oracle later which
was a good job in my country.

------
jason_slack
I’m finishing a degree in Economics at 42. Follow your dreams, you owe it to
yourself.

~~~
miguelrochefort
My dream is not to get a Bachelor's degree. I'm mostly interested in it for
job security and peace of mind.

My dream is to work at Xerox PARC (although Microsoft Research or Google X
seem more realistic). I'm really into Human-Computer Interaction. But I can't
imagine going to school for 10 years, just to start working on interesting
problems. I thought I could just do my own research lab in my apartment, but
then reality struck me.

It's good to see that you did it at 42. Congratulations.

------
bitshifts
I would check out the Lambda School

------
elipsey
I did something very similar, although I'm a US citizen, so I'm not sure how
well my advice applies. With that caveat, I'll answer the questions I can:

>> I would (hopefully) graduate at 32. Then what?

Sounds like you want to work as a dev, which you already are, but are hoping a
degree will open doors at larger, more prestigious companies, perhaps for more
money. Is that what you want?

Hopefully, you’ll have the resources to look for a job for a little while.
Also, lot’s of people don’t graduate on time for various reasons. Can you
handle, financially, and emotionally, finishing a semester or two later? If
not, that’s a lot of pressure if anything doesn’t go exactly according to
plan.

>> What doors will the degree open? Will I still care about those then (i.e.,
trying to get a job in the US at FAANG).

I would guess that it’s necessary but not sufficient. I’m guessing you also
need a very good resume and coding chops, and maybe the right connections
wouldn’t hurt. I have never applied to those, but I know a couple of people
who work there. If you want to know what you’re in for in an interview, get a
copy of ‘Cracking the Coding Interview’.

>> How much work is a CS degree for someone who's already a programmer?

Getting BS in anything is a lot of work. Getting STEM degree is a fucking lot
work. I had to work 60 – 80 hours a week as a CS senior. There was room for
almost nothing else in my life. (Pro tip: as a student (and probably anything
else hard) make time for reasonable diet, exercise, sleep, and going out side
in full day light even if you think you don’t have time. If you don’t, you
will go slowly insane and perform badly.)

The intro and mid level programming classes will be easy for you. IMHO, junior
and senior CS course work are only easy for people who are repeating them, and
the instructor. Keep in mind that you will have to take lots of general
requirements that might not be too hard, but are time consuming and will
contain busy work. Also, you’ll probably have to take several advanced math
courses, and a couple semesters of calculus based physics. Everyone else there
will have just finished taking calculus and physics in high-school or junior
college or something, while you are struggling to learn or re-learn all the
material they already know.

>> Can I both get a CS degree and work full-time?

I wouldn’t even attempt this. I was fortunate not to have to. School is a full
time job. Either do it full time, or expect to go proportionately slower, and
to be at a disadvantage compared to other students.

>> How likely am I to complete the degree, given that things in my life could
change (opportunities, disease, motivation, depression, passion, love,
children)?

Only you can answer this, and only by experiment. Prior academic performance
might be a hint. I was very determined to finish school, and I did, but it was
very stressful and personally costly to me. If you had trouble with your past
performance, consider how you will better. If you did OK, but are worried
about those other things getting in the way, I would ask whether those
problems are hurting your performance now; if so, they aren’t going to go away
by themselves so you had better have a plan to address them.

>> Should the excuses I attribute to my lack of degree be attributed to
something else (mental barrier, low confidence, imposter syndrome)?

I don’t know, but I do know that problems with health (mental or otherwise),
motivation, and priorities will not go away when you get a degree. Some
employers really just won’t talk to you without the degree, hopefully it’s a
listed requirement in that case, but who knows?

I don’t know what you feel the need to excuse, but I promise you that “mental
barrier, low confidence, [and] imposter syndrome” do not go away just because
we have college degrees :)

Maybe try counseling or CBT or something?

>> Assuming the most important part is to have a Bachelor's degree, and not
necessarily a CS degree, should I study something else in which I would
actually learn something useful (as opposed to learning things I already
know)?

Most dev jobs I have applied for list “BS Computer Science or equivalent”.
Software Eng., Computer Eng., or EE might be good, but aside from SE, those
are just adding hardware and electronics. Unless you want that, CS seems like
a good choice. Other hard science or STEM degrees (math, physics) might be
close enough, but why would you do that? A Bachelor’s of Arts, or something
else unrelated seems unlikely to help you, unless you want to work for
something like a state agency that just arbitrarily requires that.

Unless you you quit CS right at the end of your senior, how do you know you
wouldn’t learn anything? In my opinion, the most valuable CS classes were
probably D&A, Analysis of Algorithms, Software Eng., Programming
Languages/compilers, and maybe Discrete Math.

Did you already learn, and still remember everything in all those courses? If
so, I’m impressed! Coding interviews have tested me on this kind of stuff, and
even as a recent grad, I think they are hard.

>> Is there a shortcut to get an accredited Master's degree without getting a
Bachelor's degree?

My school had things like this. Ask the advisors while you are shopping for
college(s).

>> What would you do in my situation?

Here are the questions I would need to answer yes to before proceeding:

\--Can you afford to go to school for a few years without working?

\--Can you handle the pressure of college while remaining reasonably well
adjusted and mentally healthy? (Was it ok the first time? Can you handle
people younger than you being ahead in their work? Triage of deadlines, bad
grades, scolding instructors and childish policies without freaking out?)

\--Do you have enough slack to finish behind schedule? \--Will you be
satisfied with the result of meeting the BS requirement even if interviewing
afterwards is brutal, and you still feel like an impostor?

\--Have you tried looking at/applying for jobs that have the BS requirement,
so you know really know what the next step will be, and what your in for?

~~~
ascar
> Getting BS in anything is a lot of work. Getting STEM degree is a fucking
> lot work. I had to work 60 – 80 hours a week as a CS senior.

it's a classical YMMV thing. It really depends on the person, the work
attitude, personal interest in topics and speed you can pick stuff up. I
managed to get my degree with good grades with an average of 10 hours/week and
maybe 2-4 weeks of 60-80 hours workload each year.

I also worked part time alongside. I'm not the type to do regular 60-80 hours
weeks, so full-time work would definitely not have been my thing, but 10-20
hours of work and 10-20 hours of studying with a few busy weeks of exam
preparations or finishing project work, felt very good for me.

