
US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages - pbhowmic
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47006907
======
wonderwonder
Bearing in mind that ~40% of american's could not come up with $400 to cover
emergencies, this is going to become more prevalent in the next few days /
weeks as people will simply not be able to afford gas to get to their unpaid
work. I read an article today discussing how TSA workers in HI are living in
their cars in the airport parking lot as they cannot afford to commute. The
FBI just cancelled its internship program due to the shutdown.

An administration official recommended that all those affected simply take out
loans but unfortunately banks don't lend to people without an income nor to
those who have recent delinquencies on their credit due to no income.

I feel very bad for these real people being affected by political showmanship.

~~~
tibbon
I've seen too many people say, "Oh, government workers should all know this
stuff happens all the time, and if they don't have months or years of savings
in the bank then it's just their fault".

It's really sad that instead of being compassionate, too many are focusing on
what "should" be instead of what is the reality for many people. Like you
point out, the reality is that most people don't have savings. They should in
theory; but life rarely lines up with should.

I too feel terrible for people being hurt by these comparatively wealthy
politicians playing games with their livelihood.

~~~
bouncing
When I was a kid, my dad was deciding between two engineering jobs; one for
the US Department of Commerce and another in the private sector for a big
aerospace contractor.

The private sector one paid more, I remember, but my mother brought up to my
dad something interesting: You're less likely to get laid off, and you'll
always have more job security, with the stable paycheck provided by a
government job.

It's weird to think about it, but at this point in time, the United States
Government may be one of the worst major employers in the country. Two missed
pay periods, unstable leadership, no yearly budget, massive deficits,
constantly changing its mind.

~~~
akhilcacharya
If this country was _actually_ run like a business, the CEO would be fired by
now.

~~~
sparkie
If the country was run like a business, they wouldn't be _in_ business, they
would be bankrupt.

The purpose of a business it create wealth. The purpose of government is to
_take_ wealth. Government does some useful functions with the wealth it takes,
but extremely inefficiently. Private enterprises which are profit motivated
consistently outperform government on budget, quality and time.

~~~
sgjohnson
It’s sad seeing people actually disagreeing with you.

The US government is $21tn in debt. 21 trillion. With a constant budget
deficit.

No private entity would be ever allowed to go that far.

If the Government is still taking money out of my paycheck, it simply isn’t
shut down enough.

~~~
SilasX
>It’s sad seeing people actually disagreeing with you.

It's because of a high-status meme that's gone around that "Governments Aren't
Households" followed by a pedantic lecture about a few dimensions where they
have interesting, but not fundamental differences. And it's true: reliable,
trusted governments e.g. suffer lower costs from going into debt, and are able
to recapture some of the expenses. Plus, they can default in a way that's
technically legal (inflate away the debt).

But none of that changes the more important, relevant similarities:

\- There are limits to how quickly you can accumulate real resources to pay
off debts.

\- There are severe consequences to being unable to pay debts.

\- There are debt levels that are dangerous to have and which prevent you from
raising funds for real emergencies.

All of these are true and relevant for both governments and households.

Yes, you can debate _how close_ you are to the breaking point, but you can't
simply avoid the comparison entirely just because Governments Aren't
Households.

------
NeedMoreTea
I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns.

Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not
agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount
for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much
everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is
abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on. Even if the finance
bill is defeated, or even if they can't agree a government at all.

So how is it so easy for the US to simply run out? It naively seems like
something both sides would want to fix pretty quickly. Is there some unseen
advantage doing it this way? From news reports it seems to be all downside.

Edit: Thanks for the enlightenment!

~~~
lazyant
In Canada it triggers a new election

~~~
AnimalMuppet
In the US, I could see that being weaponized. One side doesn't like the
results of the last election, so they force an impasse to get a new one. (In
particular, I could see the Democrats trying this after the election of 2016.
Perhaps the Republicans after 2018, though I think their motivation would be
less strong.)

And in the US, I could see that tactic succeeding, unless the voters were
willing to punish gaming the system that way. I see no evidence that US voters
are responsible enough to do so, however.

~~~
a-priori
Perhaps, if the people would allow it.

Theoretically you could end up in a loop where the people vote in Party A in a
minority government, then Parties B+C oppose a budget bill, an election is
held, Party A is re-elected into a minority government, and Parties B+C oppose
a budget bill, and so on.

But it's important to recognize that blocking a budget is a risky manoeuvre.
In all likelihood the above cycle would never happen more than once or twice
because people find elections irritating. If people think you called an
election frivolously then voters will punish you at the polls; in the above
example people would eventually get pissed off at B and C and break the cycle
by giving A a majority so that they can pass their budget without opposition
support.

The important thing is that in the Westminster system (e.g. Canada, Australia,
New Zealand, UK) if Parliament loses the ability to pass important bills then
it results in an election. It keeps the opposition parties honest insofar that
they have to be confident that they would actually gain in the polls in order
for them to force an election by blocking the government. They can't just
block things without repercussions.

------
yingw787
Even without the shutdown, the U.S. air traffic control system may experience
greater strain in the years to come due to a generational deficit in the
number of new air traffic controllers being trained and staffed:
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathryncreedy/2016/01/28/contro...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathryncreedy/2016/01/28/controller-
shortage-to-increase-airline-costs-delays-fares/#14e7852b5a68)

This may have been an issue with Reagan firing all members of PATCO:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Contr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_\(1968\))

Whereas before, sufficient military air traffic controllers were willing and
able to take on the job, today there is no such reserve.

One book I read recently on the topic of arbitraging the social trust was "The
Fifth Risk"; it's a good read. [https://smile.amazon.com/Fifth-Risk-Michael-
Lewis/dp/1324002...](https://smile.amazon.com/Fifth-Risk-Michael-
Lewis/dp/1324002646?sa-no-redirect=1)

~~~
MrMember
Anecdotal, but I've had several friends who went to school for air traffic
control give up and find work in other industries because there weren't any
openings for them in ATC.

~~~
bryondowd
I didn't go to school for it, but I did manage to apply for an opening, get
through the initial screening, and go to the academy as a trainee. Washed out
in the finals by a few points.

From what I saw of the entire process, the biggest issue they have is the
strictness of their hiring process. It's very bureaucratic, in the interest of
fairness, but also very harsh. They get tens of thousands of applicants, but
only have enough throughput at the academy for a few thousand students per
year, and they wash out around 50% of those students. Then more wash out at
their respective facilities.

The kicker is that when they bring in current/retiring controllers to act as
instructors at this academy, they put them through the same course, with the
same final, and only about 2/3 of the instructor candidates pass. In other
words, their program is so strict that a third of people actually doing the
job couldn't qualify to even start the job at a trainee level.

I was told, while there, that the final exams simulate a level of traffic
somewhere between a level 9 or 10 tower. Trainees who complete the academy get
sent to towers below level 8, and have to succeed there before being able to
transfer to a higher level tower.

If I gave them some benefit, I'd say the idea was to get the best of the best
into the low level positions so that as many as possible would progress up to
the top levels, but when they can't even fill their low levels because they
are cutting half their hires at the academy, it seems like they might be
overdoing it.

List of facilities and their levels, for those curious what kind of airport
warrants a given level.

[1] [https://123atc.com/facilities](https://123atc.com/facilities)

------
rkochman
I’m glad to see this. The shutdown has been too “business as usual” for most
Americans, while others are expected to work without pay, which is ridiculous.

~~~
jazzyk
Strictly speaking, their pay is delayed - they will be paid for all the work,
eventually. Still, regular employees should not be going through this, though.

~~~
scarmig
There's at least two classes of employees here:

1) essentials, who are required to work and will indeed likely be repaid

2) non-essentials, who are not allowed to work and will not be repaid. They've
effectively been forced into an unplanned month-long+ leave of absence. To be
honest I feel worse for this group, though it sucks for everyone.

ETA: this is inaccurate, was thinking of contractors. Though I do wonder how
hourly workers will be handled.

~~~
bpp
That's not quite right. We won't know how pay works out until there's an
appropriation ending the shutdown, but in past shutdowns both essential and
non-essential employees have been paid what they're owed (I'm not quite sure
how this works for hourly workers).

Which is to say we'll have forced some people to work for no pay, and paid
others for doing no work. (Yes, the pay is in fact just delayed. But "no pay"
is pithier.)

------
mayneack
Federal workers should start striking. I gather that in most cases they're
explicitly prevented from striking, but I think there's a good chance that
it's too unpopular to actually punish them.

Also yesterday some leadership of the flight attendants union called for a
general strike until it was over:
[https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/could-an-unlikely-
av...](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/could-an-unlikely-aviation-
strike-end-the-shutdown.html)

~~~
justaguyhere
_they 're explicitly prevented from striking_

Wow, is this true? Is this even legal (except maybe police and military)?

~~~
pc86
ATC is going to be as important economically and for public safety as police
and military. You literally _cannot_ fly commercial flights without ATC. They
issue the flight plans, provide the routing, provide clearances for every taxi
movement on the ground and every landing and takeoff for every commercial
flight in the country.

So what I mean is that whatever argument is made to make it illegal for police
to strike (assuming it is), the same argument applies to ATC.

~~~
opwieurposiu
This is just wrong. Commercial flights fly all the time without ATC. The
majority of airports in the USA are uncontrolled.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-
towered_airport](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-towered_airport)

~~~
akhilcacharya
Commercial airliners do _not_ take off in non-towered airports.

~~~
opwieurposiu
There are many Commercial flights every day to non-towered airports. In
backcounty Alaska this is the norm. Clearly you have a big-city bias in your
thinking.

~~~
akhilcacharya
OK, that's fair. Didn't consider Alaska which is known for these requirements.

------
resters
At the risk of introducing a political topic into this supposedly apolitical
subject, why shouldn't any president simply make demands and then shut down
the government until his/her political opponents cave? Seemingly this strategy
will not work ever again for either party if proper steps are taken. It seems
like a terrible abuse of executive power.

~~~
bluGill
Don't blame only the president, congress has just as much blame for not
passing a budget the president would agree to.

~~~
mdavidn
They did pass a CR back in December. Everyone thought the President would sign
it. He changed his mind.

~~~
bluGill
Still partially their fault for thinking the president would. Even if the
president changed his mind afterwards they take some blame as their job is to
figure this out in time.

~~~
lolc
> Even if the president changed his mind afterwards they take some blame as
> their job is to figure this out in time.

That's the most extravagant line of reasoning I've read in this thread so far.
And now my brain is in a knot. I understand you're saying parliament should
have proactively made their end of the deal worse because the negotiations
were a sham anyway. You realize they're still not willing to do that after
negotiations have broken down?

In the end you're just blaming them for not having made a different deal
earlier. But that wasn't on the table then, and isn't now. So you're just
blaming them for not giving in. Which (disregarding the particulars) is a
reasonable position. But somehow you've packed it up all weird.

------
howlingfantods
Seems like it’s just delays rather than a full stoppage.

From Newsweek: ‘Flights arriving into LaGuardia Airport were delayed by about
41 minutes as of 10:15 a.m. EST and gate hold and taxi delays were between 15
and 29 minutes, although FAA said it was decreasing. Arrival traffic was
experiencing airborne delays of 15 minutes or less.‘

Regardless, US scoring a lot of own goals here.

~~~
coldcode
The US system is highly integrated, any slowdowns causes a lot of ripples
elsewhere. Plus its not like it will get better at all. Add a few snowstorms
and soon nothing will move.

~~~
nathancahill
[https://flightaware.com/miserymap/usKEWR](https://flightaware.com/miserymap/usKEWR)

------
throwaway5752
Good. People shouldn't have to work for a month without pay. The services
should have been cut immediately.

~~~
rootusrootus
The whole idea of 'essential workers' stinks. At least they ought to be paid.
Otherwise, when the gov't stops, it should really _stop_. Putting continued
operation on the backs of the workers is extremely un-American IMO.

------
plaidfuji
Much hand-wringing is being done by well-meaning moderates and centrists here,
blaming both the President and Congress, wondering why our system allows for
this to happen, expressing solidarity with the furloughed workers. At least
the right questions are being asked.

But the fact is that for this to end any time soon, the equivocating masses
trying to stay on the sidelines, saying "oh those darned politicians...", are
going to have to choose a side. The hardliners on both sides (the people who
vote most often) view compromise as unacceptable, so their representatives are
going to sit on their hands and vote down bill after bill.

The choice is not between building a wall or not - it is about whether we
allow individual actors to use the functioning of the federal government as
leverage in political negotiation. It would be the same if Democrats in the
House said, "we won't pass a funding bill unless it includes universal
healthcare. If you don't agree, you're shutting the government down." Absurd.
Continuing government funding with no strings attached is an apolitical
opinion, and it's time for centrists to speak up.

~~~
fsdfsaf
> It would be the same if Democrats in the House said, "we won't pass a
> funding bill unless it includes universal healthcare. If you don't agree,
> you're shutting the government down." Absurd.

That's exactly what happened 5 years ago.

~~~
rootusrootus
Please don't be dishonest here. In 2013 the GOP was trying very specifically
to defund the ACA. The Democrats were pushing clean CRs. Again, it was the GOP
trying to use a gov't shutdown to force the Democrats to agree to their
wishes.

------
mikenew
I believe paychecks were due today. Missing two paychecks can be very painful
for a lot of people. I would expect things to cascade pretty quickly from this
point.

~~~
exogeny
Very painful? Why not just take out a loan? Wilbur Ross whole-heartedly
recommends it!

~~~
throwaway5752
Oh, no! That wasn't what he meant. The president clarified that he meant to
say that grocery stores and banks will work with you and extend you credit.

~~~
matt4077
“Banks will work with you and extend you credit” is exactly the same as
“getting a loan”.

~~~
throwaway5752
No. In the context in which he said it, it means what happens in bankruptcies
when debt-holders renegotiate terms and vendor contracts are restructured,
something that the president is, sadly, well qualified to talk about (and
commerce secretary, for different reasons)

------
dawhizkid
Interesting thing I discovered when I was concerned about SFO delays is that
SFO is one of the few airports in the U.S. that does not use TSA for
security...it hires its own private security officers.

Edit: For those curious, these airports have private security (SFO is by far
the largest as far as I can tell): [https://www.tsa.gov/for-
industry/screening-partnerships](https://www.tsa.gov/for-industry/screening-
partnerships)

~~~
electrograv
Does this mean the airports experiencing a crippling loss of federal personnel
could simply hire them onto their own payroll (the same people, even)? In such
a case, all airports could keep functioning independent of government aid --
theoretically, anyway.

~~~
jessriedel
That is how the entire system use to operate:

> Prior to September 11, 2001, airport screening was provided in the U.S. by
> private companies contracted by the airline or airport.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_security_repercussions...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_security_repercussions_due_to_the_September_11_attacks)

Leaving our airport infrastructure dependent on the dysfunctional federal
government was another downside to the nationalization of most of airport
security.

------
lkrubner
On February 7th, myself and my co-workers are supposed to travel half way
across the country for a major sales-call/meeting. But if the shutdown is
still happening, there is no amount of money that would tempt me to get on
that plane. Stuff like this worries me:

" _The delays come one day after a stark warning was issued by air industry
unions about the risk to public safety. "In our risk averse industry, we
cannot even calculate the level of risk currently at play, nor predict the
point at which the entire system will break," air traffic, pilot and flight
attendant union leaders said in a joint statement._"

I can't be the only who feels this way, and the longer the shutdown goes on,
the more people are likely to be worried about air travel.

In the short term you might think my company will suffer because of a lost
sales opportunity, and that is strictly our loss. But if it happens to enough
companies, then it is going to hit the general economy.

Working on major projects means long lead times. The sales that are not being
closed this quarter are going to show up as less economic activity in the 2nd
and 3rd quarters.

Unless the shut down ends immediately, it seems likely this will have medium-
term or long-term consequences.

~~~
0xcafecafe
I am travelling internationally on the 1st and I cannot avoid my trip. Will
only be nervous until we cross the US airspace. Moreover, I worry about the
upcoming superbowl weekend and the mayhem the airport delays will bring.

------
s0rce
Why can't the ATC adopt a funding model like the USPS so they don't have this
problem in the future relying on appropriations. Can they basically charge
airlines and other traffic for their services to fund the operations. I'm
mostly curious if this is actually realistic.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>Why can't the ATC adopt a funding model like the USPS so they don't have this
problem in the future relying on appropriations. Can they basically charge
airlines and other traffic for their services to fund the operations. I'm
mostly curious if this is actually realistic.

I'm not sure if it's economically realistic but it seems politically
realistic.

The right should be fine with the idea of a government agency being less tax
dependent and I'm not sure what problem the left would have with it. The
corporate interests should also have no problem with it because it arguably
gives them slightly more control (ATCs being less accountable to the .gov for
funding them makes them more accountable to customers). I'm not familiar with
how ATCs work but on the surface it seems like it could be a win-win-win.

~~~
skosch
> ATCs being less accountable to the .gov for funding them makes them more
> accountable to customers

That's one potential issue right there – would this arrangement put airlines
or airports into a position to squeeze concessions out of ATCs that might
reduce safety? At the very least, minimum ATC pay would need to be federally
regulated.

------
dentemple
There'll be a lot of angry people if the same thing happens in Atlanta over
Super Bowl weekend.

~~~
chrisBob
Why is Super Bowl travel such a big deal? Doesn’t the stadium only seat about
50k people anyway? I understand that the game is exciting, but I don’t see
what travel to one venu would be news.

~~~
ztoben
A lot of people come for the atmosphere and other festivities. I'm sure the
actual number of people visiting town for the game is closer to 200k than it
is to 50k.

~~~
rchaud
Is this really true? I understand diehard fans going to tailgate parties, but
don't the vast majority watch the event at a bar or at home?

~~~
detaro
This article suggests 125-150k visitors for past Superbowls:
[http://www.startribune.com/a-million-super-bowl-visitors-
est...](http://www.startribune.com/a-million-super-bowl-visitors-estimate-
includes-many-minnesotans/470777133/)

------
dandare
Am I the only one who thinks that air traffic controllers and the airport
security personnel hold the key to the shutdown? If airports close down, the
shutdown will have to stop immediately, the damage to the economy would be so
catastrophic not even Republicans could ignore it.

------
neolander
There's no way the federal shutdown lasts too much longer. The heat is on and
too many people feel the hurt now, especially in a place like New York. If I
were a betting man, I'd say 3-4 days max.

~~~
creaghpatr
If the airports remain shut down, the economic cost will quickly balloon to
multiples of the $5.7B requested for the wall. It's literally a rounding error
in the budget.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Nobody actually cares about the $5.7 billion dollars, it's chump change for
the government. This is all about appearance. The Democrats will lose face if
they sign off on a budget which allows him to build his wall, and Trump will
lose face if he fails to start building it (presumably in time for the next
election).

(It's also notable that neither party, politically, has a good reason to end
it. Trump will have a hard time holding onto even his strongest supporters
come reelection if he can't start the wall, the most tangible and physical
representation of his promises to his base, and the longer the shutdown
persists, the better Democrats will do in Congress next election, the shutdown
is a political godsend.)

~~~
nemothekid
> This is all about appearance.

I don't think the democrats should cave because this is a terrible precedent
that far outstrips "appearance". It feels like a perversion of checks and
balances where, because on side doesn't get what they want, they shut down the
entire government until the other side caves. I won't be a fan of future
presidents shutting down the government every time they can't come to a
bipartisan agreement.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Sure, but it also means that your position is that our government should be
shut down and people should be unable to feed their families to prevent giving
the opposition a mostly meaningless amount of money to build a useless thing
that pales in comparison to how much we've blown on the F-35 (literally like
1% of the cost), a largely useless airplane.

Which is to say, one party is certainly responsible for picking this fight,
but both parties are responsible for not ending it.

~~~
nemothekid
Is your point that one side should cave because the numbers are meaningless?
If so, I don't agree - they aren't meaningless. No one should be able to hold
the American people hostage in order to get what they want - it not
democratic. You shouldn't be allowed to undermine democracy by using
threatening Americans as hostage - fullstop. Your suggestion is to just cave
whenever one side threatens a shutdown is unacceptable

They are acting like children. If your son relentlessly bullied your other
baby and in order for your baby to stop crying your son said "give me $5" (a
meaningless amount to most adults) - the solution wouldn't be to give him $5
and teach him that whenever he wants money he just has to threaten throw the
baby down the stairs.

------
coldcode
When material damage begins to occur to US businesses their first call will be
to certain Senators. Imagine Fedex with no flights, Disneyworld with no
guests, Prime with no deliveries. It's a massive disaster in the making with
lots of ripple effects. Even the mail won't move except by truck.

------
pc86
As of approximately 15 minutes ago the LGA ground stop has been replaced with
a ground delay. There are still ground delay programs in effect at PHL and
EWR.

------
mitchell_h
I'm currently sitting in LGA waiting on a flight that was scheduled for
1:30pm. This sucks.

~~~
sabujp
not getting paid sucks more

~~~
rootusrootus
The people not getting paid mostly don't have enough political power to
matter. If the airports start going offline politicians are going to very
quickly hear from the constituents they actually care about.

------
anant90
Was the fall of Rome this embarrassing as well?

~~~
fyjvd90
It’s also interesting how a democratic Rome voted for becoming an oligarchy.

~~~
AndyMcConachie
They didn't vote for oligarchy. They stabbed Caesar in the Senate.

~~~
Brakenshire
They in effect voted for a dictatorship, initially for Pompey on the ground of
a terrorism threat, and then later were supportive of Caesar. Pompey used the
democratic tribune system which had been abolished by a previous generation of
the aristocracy. The dictator argued past the traditions of the Roman Republic
as exemplified by the aristocrats, and appealed directly to the people.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
They voted when society was already a de-facto oligarchy.

~~~
Brakenshire
Yes, I think so, they in effect chose between an oligarchy and a dictatorship.

------
thisisweirdok
We keep climbing this stupid mountain and I keep wondering where the peak is.

------
athenot
I'm not a lawyer so I'm wondering: how feasible would it be for government
employees to sue the president in small claims court and get a default
judgement since there's no way he'll how up all over the country? Kinda like
how people did this in the Equifax data leak...

------
tanilama
If something is broken, best way to start fixing it is to stop pretending it
is still working. Good move.

------
dalbasal
I'm Irish. Our politics is usually boring, so we watch the east and west (UK &
US) versions.

From an outside perspective, it sounds like the destructive stalemates
currently causing havoc in parliament & Congress are quite similar.

Everything is political machinations. The issues at hand (brexits & border
walls) are popular/opinionated with the public, but most politicians don't
feel as strongly about these issues.

They are equally happy if things go well, and they get credit or they go bad,
and the other side gets blamed. I know politics always has.. politics, but I
don't remember it ever being so explicit.

A mental exercise I often go to is imagining a secret ballot. I suspect that
the votes would be totally different, if the ballot was secret.

------
cletus
Honestly I just don't want to fly at all until this whole thing is over. Who
knows if on the day I want to fly there won't be a shortage of ATCs or TSA to
man the "security" line?

We have 2 horrible years where Trump was in the White House and the GOP
controlled the House and the Senate and there was no stomach for the border
wall. To think there is any greater chance now that the Democrats control the
House or that they could somehow be shamed into capitulating is laughable.

The public has generally not been kind to whatever party forced a shutdown.
Look at Newt Gingrich's shutdown as one modern example. According to 538 it
seems like people are (rightly) blaming Trump for this. Good.

My question is at what point do McConnell develop a spine and overrule the
president? Because that's what it may well take. Either that or a rank-and-
file revolt in the Senate.

I'm glad to see banks are trying to help out Federal workers who are hurt by
this but the one question I have is: how can people live and have
responsibilities and sudden expenses and not be able to come up with $500? I
mean I realize this fact is the basis for the check cashing industry (which is
predatory and should be outlawed) but I honestly couldn't live that way.

~~~
isostatic
While ATC is of course essential, I'm unsure what different TSA not turning up
would make.

~~~
rootusrootus
An interesting question. If TSA does not show up, what happens if the airport
just opens the security gates. That would be ... hilarious. Probably illegal.

~~~
isostatic
I don't think it would be, providing the airport do the same 'quality' of
checks.

If security instead got rid of the theatre of taking shoes off, molestation,
etc, reverting to security as it was 20 years ago, but with a locked cockpit,
it would be far more pleasant and wouldn't require the TSA at all.

------
pgrote
My mind is blown by how the US Federal Government can claim someone is
essential and force them to work without pay.

I've read a pretty good explanation of it here:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/11/how-can-
go...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/11/how-can-government-
force-people-work-without-pay-indefinitely/?utm_term=.6295e1aeb370)

Yet, I still cannot understand how it is legal to make people work without pay
based on an Attorney General's thoughts on it in the 1980s.

Amazing.

------
Grollicus
This is by far not the first shutdown, nor is there any indication it will be
the last. I'm wondering why under these circumstances anyone would even want
to work for the US government?

Obviously there are people near to their pension years who will want to
complete them, but they would usually have some money.

But young people? If your boss is an asshole, just quit! Why would that be any
different in the public sector?

~~~
tyrust
Not everyone has the luxury of quitting.

------
butterfi
I don't understand why congress still gets paid.

~~~
detaro
I believe the idea is that it if congress members could be compelled to accept
something they disagree with to end their own personal finance issues, it
would cause an inbalance benefiting the richer/better-backed members.

------
flashdance
Well, I'll be damned. It looks like there's going to be a general strike
primarily organized by the US Government. I guess horseshoe theory is real
after all.

Seriously though, it'll be interesting to see how much disruption is necessary
to force the hand of the legislative and executive branch to finally fund the
government.

------
SolaceQuantum
I'm still not fully understanding what's going on here, and I'm american.
Could someone who is more educated in politics of the US explain to me why
this shutdown is allowed to go on for this long, and why there is no law in
place for 'if the congress cannot come to an agreement, X shold happen'?

~~~
dragontamer
Congress can write, and rewrite, any law. Congress will virtually never be
held responsible for any event, since they control the law itself.

Another thing: Trump issued a veto-threat against the bills that passed the
House. Trump refuses for a budget to be passed unless it has his wall.
Republicans don't want to betray their leader, so they're holding firm with
Trump.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
Q: Why don't republicans want to betray their leader? Is there that much
republican support for Trump right now?

~~~
dragontamer
Republican support for Trump has dropped from 97% to like 90% this past month.
Sooooo... yeah. I forget the numbers exactly, but its well above 80%.

Note: Republican Senators and House members are trapped. Literally every
Republican Senator up for election 2016 to 2018 who said something bad about
Trump was voted out.

Lisa Murkowski is the one exception: her next election is in 2022. And she's
clearly expecting Trump to be voted out in 2020 (which is why she's willing to
go against him so much). She's willing to play the long game.

All the other Republican Senators who didn't like Trump's policies (Jeff
Flake, John McCain, etc. etc.) are gone. I guess Mitt Romney (new Utah
Senator) is a new instigator, but the anti-Trump Republican movement is
basically dead at this point.

Either a Democrat took over the seat, or a harder-leaning Republican took
over.

Note that over 30% of the US Population agrees with Trump on the issue and
still strongly supports him through this shutdown. If you are a Republican and
in the House or Senate, you HAVE to earn the support of that 30%, because no
one really will vote for you if you go against this base.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
Oh, okay. Thanks for explaining. Do you know some of the reasonings around the
support for the shut down?

~~~
dragontamer
Politics is innately emotional, and not a thing of reason.

Fundamentally, when people choose a leader, they will then follow that person.
Its an innate characteristic of humans. Its not a Republican or Democrat
thing, its simply a human thing.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
Thank you again for explaining. I'll have to look into that. (I'm a little
strange so I don't often follow leadership without also querying their
reasoning constantly.)

------
harshulpandav
Why can't US government give an official statement to all its employees
guaranteeing future payment of the work done during shutdown? And banks should
be able to give personal loan over that statement. Interest paid over that
loan can be reimbursed by the govt once shutdown is over.

(I am not an economist; It is just my opinion)

~~~
yaks_hairbrush
(1) The US government did just that -- promised backpay for all unpaid work
during the shutdown.

(2) Banks may not wish to give loans to folks who have bad/no credit, even
with the assurance. Banks need a bit more than assurances that the government
will pay their debtees -- they need assurances that they will get that money.

------
rootusrootus
This is pretty silly. Congress thinks they can't continue to fund government
activities, but they certainly don't suspend tax collection. It would be easy
to solve the "shutdown" and "debt ceiling" fictions, except they are too
useful as a political weapon.

------
exabrial
I feel bad for the TSA employees, as they couldn't have seen this coming.

But this is yet another reason the TSA should 100% be funded by the airlines,
not the Taxpayers of the United States. Those who wish to fly will pay for
their own security, those who rarely fly wouldn't.

------
sunshinelackof
I am shocked this hasn't happened sooner. It speaks to the lack of agency the
average person has even in a government job. Politics and money grant agency
for people, but most Americans have limited access to either.

------
wheaties
Not surprised by this. I'm patently surprised that Houston has stayed open
given the staffing issues around the TSA. Maybe this will be the forcing
mechanism to end the stalemate.

~~~
MiddleEndian
The TSA is a facade, perhaps they'll disband and we'll all be better off for
it (probably not but I can dream). It's ATC that's the actual necessity.

------
eriken
The US should seriously consider decoupling critical services like this from
government. It is neither reliable nor necessarily to have the setup you are
currently using.

------
megaman8
I can only hope that voters learn something from all this and start
considering alternative parties, rather than continuing to vote
democrat/republican every year.

~~~
Sargos
The vast majority of Americans don't get a choice of who to vote for as
districts are extremely gerrymandered nowadays. The only politicians I had a
chance to vote for last election was local ones like the school board.
Congress was just one name that I had to fill in the oval for.

------
mehrdadn
Is there any way to donate or lend money to ATC/TSA workers who are struggling
to make ends meet? (Ideally lend, but with as generous terms as possible...)

------
petercooper
Is it at all sensible to stress out people whose sole job is to safely keep
planes in the air? This seems like a recipe for potential disaster.

------
SteveCoast
Why hasn't the FAA been privatized anyway? It looks like most of Europe's air
controllers and even airports were long ago privatized.

~~~
detaro
I believe the most common model in Europe on country-level is that of a state-
owned or at least state-controlled company, with sometimes some locations
being subcontracted (but I believe the latter exists in the US too).
International agreements about allowed fees probably mean you can't really
make a profit, so little reason for other owners to be interested.

------
rchaud
Do unpaid workers have cause to sue their employers for back pay with
interest? What about damages?

~~~
freeone3000
Yes. [https://www.govexec.com/pay-benefits/2019/01/federal-
workfor...](https://www.govexec.com/pay-benefits/2019/01/federal-workforces-
largest-union-sues-over-unpaid-labor-during-shutdown/153886/) . They've yet to
collect from the 2013 shutdown, however.

------
yters
Might be a good general warning to not become so dependent on the federal
government.

------
janpot
How long before the shutdown actually costs more than the wall?

------
matt4077
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world

------
screye
Damn. I literally landed in NYC yesterday.

This shutdown is crazy.

------
skohan
Who eats the cost of those cancelled flights?

~~~
bdcravens
Depending on the cancellation terms, the airlines or the fliers, and it
probably trickles down to the businesses or individuals when they have to make
alternative travel arrangements.

------
foobaw
What an embarrassment as a country.

------
linkmotif
Good thing there’s the Internet...

------
hitpointdrew
Wouldn't be a problem if security was put in the hands of the airlines, where
it belongs.

------
BurningFrog
This should force Trump to end it pretty soon.

The public clearly blames Trump for the shutdown, so Democrats have no reason
to lift a finger to stop it while Trumps approval rating drops, and as more
airports close, the situations surely becomes untenable fast.

~~~
BurningFrog
Nailed it!

------
throwaway456321
I was just at LGA Terminal B and can't believe how awful it is. You're stuck
at those cramped gates with CNN blaring at max volume - when it's not playing
stupid ads it's just non stop Trump bashing - I was there 2.5 hours and
boarded my flight with a throbbing headache.

Also could not believe there's no public transport at LGA. After 60 years they
have not managed to get a rail line out there. WTF?

So I really feel for people stuck there due to this shutdown nonsense.

------
subpixel
Reading Pelosi's tweet, which at-mentions the president and includes an
exclamation point, depresses me as much as the shutdown. Nobody should follow
Trump's example of using social media as some sort of loudspeaker.

------
usaphp
As a non US citizen, I don’t understand what’s that shutdown even about, seems
like absurd thing to do. Is it all because of Trump or he is not the only one
to blame? I remember there was some shutdown when Obama was there too? Or am I
mistaken?

Edit: downvoted for asking a question?

~~~
Brakenshire
It seems like in the US the two legislative branches and the executive branch
of government have to all agree each year on a budget, or else everything
shuts down? It's a curious system, I think in most countries not being able to
pass a budget would bring down the government and cause a new election. It
seems to rely very strongly on politicians seeking compromise, which is
ambitious!

A question to American posters: could any party holding any of the branches of
government unilaterally shut down the entire government if they chose, until
the next scheduled congressional or presidential election?

~~~
rootusrootus
Only the legislative branch has enough power to unilaterally shut the gov't.
The executive can make them work for it, but ultimately congress holds all the
cards.

The executive makes a budget, but it's just advisory. Officially the House is
the source of the budget, which gets passed by the senate, then signed by the
president. But as a practical matter there's much negotiation before and
during the whole process, of course.

------
joshuaheard
It's time to automate air traffic control.

------
asabjorn
Both sides are being stupid here. Trump knew the #resistance mindset makes it
impossible for democrats to even trade something they supposedly care about,
DACA protections, for the wall he cares about.

I just find it mind-boggling that this path was even tried when it was a big
gamble on popular opinion overruling #resistance.

I find it hypocritical that the democrats are willing to spend more money on
#resistance than what they could trade wall for DACA protections. Remember,
real americans and children brought here illegally are effected by this
inability to trade what you supposedly care for with what someone else cares
for.

It is human to care more for your family than you neighbor, more for your
neighbor than a stranger countryman, more for a stranger countryman than one
from another country. The people already here illegally are our countrymen,
but the people not here yet are not. Lets make sure our people is taken care
of.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Trump knew the #resistance mindset makes it impossible for democrats to even
> trade something they supposedly care about, DACA protections, for the wall
> he cares about.

Trump's offer on DACA was a temporary preservation of the status quo on DACA,
which opponents of his attempt to eliminate it have already acheived through
litigation.

If he offered the more comprehensive legislative solution—the DREAM Act—for
which the Obama Administration implementing DACA was a stopgap alternative,
maybe that would actually be something. But what he has offered is essentially
nothing.

------
quotemstr
Actual headline: "US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages"

HN headline: "US shutdown: Flights halted into New York airport"

These two headlines suggest very different mental pictures of the situation.
HN should stick to general policy and use the article's headline.

