
Google 'segregates' women into lower-paying jobs, stifling careers, lawsuit says - eatsfoobars
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/14/google-women-promotions-lower-paying-jobs-lawsuit
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nxsynonym
I want to treat carefully as this is a hot button issue - and I'm not trying
to defend Google at all but:

>>But other male software engineers who were less qualified than Ellis or at
the same level were promoted into Level 4 and higher positions, according to
the suit.

What is the proof that this is the case? Did Google admit that these
candidates were "less qualified" than Ellis, or is it just the perception?

Just because two people graduate at the same time from the same program and
have similar experience does not mean they are equally qualified.

Again, I'm not saying Google is in the right - but just because something
appears one way does not make it so.

>>But Pease herself was denied a promotion to a technical position, the
complaint said: “Ms Pease’s two interviewers, both men, did not ask her any
technical questions, and one interviewer did not even bother to take notes of
the meeting with her.”

This is the part that carries the most weight imo. It's pretty clear that
interviewing processes in tech are biased at best. Maybe the course of action
here is to encourage more blind interviewing processes, or bring in a larger
pool of interviewers.

Its sad to see that this rampant sexism is so prevalent, especially at one of
the most publicly visible companies in the world.

~~~
existencebox
Honest question: Is note taking in interviews seen as necessary? I've always
found it to be somewhat insulting when the interviewer has their head in their
laptop or paper pad, and types furiously while I realize I'm already
stumbling. It's a terrible dynamic, and I've tried to avoid doing that
_aggressively_ in my own interviews; be engaging the interviewee, following
along/trying not to seem distracted. I'm hard pressed to think about material
subtleties that I'd miss in the time before I'm able to go to my desk and
write up a summary post-factum.

(This is tangential to the core thrust, but as an eng trying to do my part to
make interviewing less of a pain, this stood out to me)

~~~
notacoward
> Is note taking in interviews seen as necessary?

It's increasingly common at companies that have highly standardized/calibrated
interview processes. Often, this is for the express purpose of avoiding
discrimination. Interviewers have to ask approved questions, measure them
according to specific criteria, then express their evaluation in terms of a
number and be prepared to justify it. That allows the numbers for different
candidates to be compared meaningfully, like to like. The downside is that
it's impossible to do all that without taking notes.

------
jboggan
'Ellis, who has a degree in applied mathematics and a minor in computer
science, had experience in back-end development. But “Google assigned her to
an occupationally-segregated frontend engineering role”, the suit said.'

Personal data point: I have a B.S. in Mathematics and a Master's in
Bioinformatics (taken after 7 years of PhD study), and I had over three years
of backend professional experience when I was hired at Google as a Level 3 in
frontend engineering (I was told I was going to a backend position with "lots
of math" when I first accepted the offer). Before I left Google I mentored a
Noogler who was hired as a Level 3 despite having just finished a PhD in CS.

My point is that Google is filling slots with bodies, very smart bodies, but
that it is incredibly common to come in for a level you are overqualified for
and a role you are unsuited for.

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HoppedUpMenace
Just my suggestion, and probably a far out there one...

I offer that people should be put in front of a machine with facial
recognition and the most advanced AI available that can conduct a one on one
interview with a person to determine if they meet the qualifications for the
specific job they are applying to.

This would be controlled by a 3rd party who has no ties to any employer and
would be used more as a data gathering tool that produces results of a
person's interview and compares it to other people who interviewed as well,
obscuring name obviously but providing gender and race breakdowns, among other
things. people could possibly view this data after they've had the "real"
interview with Google or whomever and compare with what was determined by
their interview with the AI system. The 3rd party could provide this data to
the public on a monthly or yearly basis so that everyone can know, possibly,
if there is an incredible amount of bias that an interviewer may hold toward
any particular people or groups of people.

Of course, there's 1000's of caveats to this and companies like Google would
have to provide how they conduct their interviews to said 3rd party, as well
as techniques and what they expect in a person's personality but wouldn't it
at least be better than having people constantly reject the notion that there
is a discrimination and bias problem in and out of the workplace? Not to
mention it would all but eliminate the need for lawsuits for this kind of
thing, unless one disagrees wholeheartedly with 3rd party AI results and
actual interview results.

------
ikeyany
During your interview, you can demonstrate strong technical skills even if you
aren't asked about them. You can also demonstrate strong soft skills. The
latter is generally seen as less 'merited' and generally gets paid less.

I wonder how this kind of information can be qualified other than a full
transcript of everyone's interviews.

------
0xbear
As a former Googler: bullshit. If anything, Google gives women all the help
they can possibly get, including preferential treatment during recruitment,
hiring, and promotions. If this is not enough, I'm not sure what else they
could do to boost the numbers of women in higher paid roles.

~~~
bergeronize
clearly the answer is to start holding men down so that woman can be equal

~~~
dang
Ideological battle-style comments are against the site rules. We ban accounts
that post this way, so please don't.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

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YeGoblynQueenne
Why is this flagged?

~~~
novia
HN is in full on denial mode regarding sexism in tech (or at least that's how
it seems to me)

