

It Doesn't Have To Be All Or Nothing With A Startup - comatose_kid
http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/1078-it-doesnt-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-a-startup

======
lr
This is what I am doing with <http://timefo.com> . I have a day job, and I do
Timefo at night and on weekends, and still have a life. I have hesitated to
outright list it on HN as an "Ask HN" item, but let's just see what happens
with this comment... My main concern is that I don't have a lot of time for
support, so that is why I have not publicized it more widely.

~~~
davidw
Definitely post it in its own thread if you're looking for feedback! What is
more a part of this site than people doing that? It's much more productive
than reading 37signals say the same thing a new way.

Here's some comments:

\- The take a tour image is pixelated and ugly.

\- It needs something more compelling, IMO, as a reason to use it. It is a
neat widget, but nothing I'd think of using. Maybe there are some cool use
cases that would get people excited about it.

\- After just a quick glance, it feels like something that might be good as
part of something else.

\- Clicking and dragging on a timeline (the blog one, for example) is hard
because there is too much 'link space' (even where there are no words) as
opposed to 'drag space', if that makes sense.

~~~
lr
Thanks for the feedback!

The images are pretty bad, so I will try to do better ones this weekend.

As you and terpua wrote, it would be more useful if one could use it on a blog
for visualization of entries, etc., and that is something I want to work on in
the near future.

I will post it as an "Ask HN" item soon.

~~~
carpo
If you are using the "Free Transform" tool in photoshop to rotate the image, I
found that rotating and scaling in the same "Free transform" session causes
more jagged edges. Doing the rotate first, then doing the scale looked better.
Not sure if you are doind that anyway, but the edges of your image looked like
mine when i was :)

------
swombat
_Basecamp was created with 10 hours/week of programming time and as a 3rd or
4th project alongside paying customers for the designers over the course of
about 6 months. In other words, we didn’t drop everything we had to create
Basecamp, and you don’t have to either._

I'm not sure how accessible this advice is to those whose name isn't David and
who don't have a tendency to say "woops!" when explaining stuff.

(ie to the non-DHH's amongst us, which I imagine is the majority)

Here's a qualificative for the article: If you're capable of writing the best
web framework in the world in your spare time, chances are you can also create
a business at the same time.

~~~
tptacek
I don't accept your argument, but even if I did, the article still has merit.

The opposing philosophy is, "drop everything else and go full speed ahead on
your product". Ok, do that. _Your likely outcome is still bad_. We talk ad
nauseum about the successes in our field, but fool ourselves about the
failures. The failure model isn't Kiko. It's the 1,000 PHP apps that we've
never heard of, because they didn't get off the ground after they used up the
runway they got from their founders 3 month sprint.

No matter what you do, the odds are very much against:

* You making enough money with a web app after a 3-month sprint to eat.

* You closing a round of funding of any sort.

On the flip side, if you do your product "part time", the odds are very good
you'll still be nurturing your product 3 months from now, or 6 months, or two
years. The "lack of focus" hurts your chances, but the sustainability helps
your chances.

Also, let's just be clear about something: DHH didn't write the best web
framework in the world. Rails is nice, but it isn't a prohibitively awesome
technical achievement. If you set the technical bar at "Rails 1.0", most of
the programmer posters here can clear it. Find another excuse not to take a
swing. =)

~~~
davidw
You make some good points, but I think this debate has been run round and
round enough that I just want to see more data.

> DHH didn't write the best web framework in the world. Rails is nice, but it
> isn't a prohibitively awesome technical achievement. If you set the
> technical bar at "Rails 1.0", most of the programmer posters here can clear
> it.

Rails was perhaps not quite as technically hard as other things, but in terms
of putting together the right technology at the right time, it was brilliantly
successful, far more than most products anyone here will release. So in terms
of shining some light on basecamp, Rails was far more successful than doing
something technically great, but obscure.

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vaksel
I think the problem with such an approach is its easy to lose your motivation.
So you put off working a day here, a day there, and then 5 years later you are
still in development.

At least when you go all in, you get that extra drive to get your project in
gear.

And yes the failure/success rate is not talked about, but I would venture a
guess that the guys who work on their start ups full time, have a higher
success rate(even if its only a few %) than the guys who do it part time
between work, going to home depot, and tending to their garden

~~~
tptacek
A "guess" is all that is. If you want to be successful, build something people
will love, and then charge money for it. The market does not care how crappy
your garden looks.

The fields are littered with the corpses of full-time startups. The world is
going to try to kill you in a thousand different ways that you can't predict.
Your product plan should focus on building something people will love. Your
business plan should focus on keeping yourself alive to build that product.
The two things are seperate.

~~~
t0pj
" _The fields are littered with the corpses of full-time startups."_

Watch your step!

~~~
tptacek
I've stepped in a couple already.

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edw519
The more I read these 37signals articles, the more I like them.

I realize that a lot of their philosophy runs counter to the already
unconventional wisdom here, but so what.

I also realize that we may soon hit 37signals saturation (much like techcrunch
saturation) here, but again, so what.

Many of us are in less than optimal situations (money, time, resources,
collaborators, etc.), so this is some of the best advice you can get...

"How about you turn your perceived weakenesses into strengths. Embrace your
constraints..."

Excellent!

My own example:

I am frustrated that I don't have enough time to spend writing my own code
because I still have several consulting gigs. So, instead of asking, "How can
I get more time in my week?" I ask, "How can I use what I learn from my
clients to cut through the fog on my own software so that I _don't need_ as
much time?" That change in framing has really saved me a lot of time.

Sometimes you just gotta change your view by asking a different question. A
37signals post has once again helped me to think outside the quadralateral.
Thanks, DHH.

~~~
davidw
I like them too, but I'm a skeptic by nature, and I have some doubts about
their story in terms of its repeatability by others. Thinking about it, this
is what comes out:

If it's so easy to just create something with less time, less code, less
people, etc... etc..., then there is also _less of a barrier to entry_ ,
meaning that it should be easier for the competition to show up and grab some
of the action. What's their barrier to entry? Popularity due to Rails?

~~~
webwright
"I like them too, but I'm a skeptic by nature, and I have some doubts about
their story in terms of its repeatability by others."

I agree. One of the few consistent challenges I see in startup founders
(including speakers at YC dinners) is DISTRIBUTION. They all say, don't
underestimate the importance and power of distribution. 37s (with the SvN
blog, Rails, Getting Real etc) essentially had "free" distribution...

If you add up all of the time/effort required to develop this passionate
following, it'd be way more than 10 hours per week.

------
mynameishere
_We’ve repeated this story so many times that it’s starting to wear a little
thin_

+1

~~~
menloparkbum
I apologize for capping on the disappearing salmon story. I'd rather read that
than more 37signals marketing material.

------
lux
What a great quote: "If lost opportunity is a risk when you try, it’s a
guarantee if you don’t."

Nice!

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maxklein
Finally, this guy makes some sense.

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sabat
For once I heartily agree with DHH. It does not need to be all-or-nothing.
Full stop.

