
Online platform’s EULA barred software developer from owning copyright in code - internetcases
http://blog.internetcases.com/2017/10/26/online-platforms-eula-barred-software-developer-from-claiming-copyright-ownership/
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DannyBee
So, i pulled the case up, and this summary is, with all due respect, crappy.

This was a motion to dismiss. Not a trial judgement.

Yes, it gets copyright law very wrong (you can't prevent copyright from
existing by contract, you can only say who owns it, and that requires a
specific written instrument).

However, the court granted leave to amend the complaint: " Ameritrade's Motion
to Dismiss as to the First Counterclaim will be granted. However, leave to
amend will be accorded so as to permit Mr. Matthews the opportunity to allege
nonconclusory facts that explain why Mr. Matthews' alleged software
modifications to TD Ameritrade's API are protected by a valid copyright."

So basically, not much to see here yet.

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internetcases
With that adjective it sounds as though you didn't think much respect was due
to begin with!

In any event, the summary is very clear that this was a motion to dismiss, not
a trial judgment. So your critique is likely to mislead.

And yes, the court left open the option for plaintiff to replead. But I would
suggest that does not do much to mitigate the extent to which the court's
reasoning here as to how the agreement could limit a claim of copyright is
questionable.

But thanks for your comments. I just did not feel that your word choice
reflected well on our profession. Let's try to be friends anyway!

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tutts
I looked up the case [1]. The copyright claims, as well as one of the claims
for breach of contract, were dismissed without prejudice, which (as far as I
understand) means he failed to allege enough facts to support his claim, but
can come back and try again. Of the claims that were dismissed with prejudice,
one of them were outside of the statute of limitations, one of them were a
claim of breach of contract because his account was terminated (dismissed
because the contract explicitly allowed TD to do this), one was a claim of
"trespass to real property", which I believe relates to a claim that TD had
physically destroyed his hard drive, and one was dismissed because (from what
I can tell) it wouldn't apply to the sort of relation the two had.

I'm not a lawyer and so can't say conclusively, but it seems to me the court
isn't saying "yeah they're right you don't have copyright here" as much as
they're (for the most part) saying "you didn't include enough information in
the suit, come back and try again".

[1] [https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-
courts/alaska...](https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-
courts/alaska/akdce/3:2016cv00136/55660/62)

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pmontra
Am I understanding it right? Ameritrade provides an API, developers using it
don't own the copyright in the code they write because it's considered
derivative work, Ameritrade can do anything it wants with that code (but how
did they get it?).

I wonder if any of us could do the same if we had the code. Anyway, why should
one want to use that API now?

Java API was deemed to be not copyrightable if I'm not wrong. That is not an
online API but does it matter and is it a precedent? Apparently not, maybe
because of the EULA. Imagine if Java came with a license saying that
developers don't own their Java code. Probably we would have forgotten Java by
the end of the 90s.

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paulajohnson
That doesn't make sense. As soon as the developer wrote the code (I.e. fixed
it in tangible form) he had copyright in it. Copyright cannot be transferred
except by a specific written transfer, which doesn't exist in this case.

~~~
yborg
Not really enough information to go on here. If there was something in the
agreement prohibiting "derivative works" it would seem that TD Ameritrade
could prevent the developer from making use of the service-derived product,
but as you say, this shouldn't invalidate the developer's copyright or give
ownership to TDA. The actual EULA text would have been useful here.

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dramm
It would be so much better to identify "TD Ameritrade" instead of "Online
Platform" in this HN Title.

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internetcases
I try to make the analysis more about the facts and the situation rather than
about parties' identities. I don't want to make it sound like I have any kind
of agenda toward a particular type of entity. I hear what you're saying
though.

~~~
dramm
Here this party identity adds a lot of clarity. Online platform is very
ambiguous as to what it even is that is being dicussed. And the litigation is
the result of actions of a specific company.

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maaaats
Good things EULAs are not enforceable in my country. No one ever reads them.

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tzs
Which country?

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maaaats
Norway. We have strong consumer protection rights that you cannot sign away.
Also laws about unreasonable contracts.

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ptaipale
However, strong consumer protection rights generally only protect consumers.
Professionals writing commercial software and working for a company are not
consumers.

(At least this is how it works at the neighbour, Finland, and I think it is
the same most everywhere).

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fatso83
You are probably on to something. Most Norwegians are so used to being
protected as consumers so a lot of the time they are taken by surprise when
acting as professionals.

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maaaats
True, always funny when someone skimps on taxes by buying a computer for
private use as "a professional", and then gets angry when it wont get fixed
for free.

But with that said, I think most stuff in an EULA wouldn't be enforceable even
in a professional context. And the worst thing to happen when breaking an EULA
would probably you lose your right to use the product, not whatever they wrote
in the EULA.

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avmich
Two questions: is this a fraud? That is, is this a way to misrepresent the
intention of the provider? And if it is, is it punishable as such?

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dovdovdov
TOS are usually there to keep the provider safe from such claims. By most TOS
the user has close to zero rights. Legal people know what they are doing.

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dayaz36
Why are some user names green on hn?

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maaaats
They are new. Probably to spot trolls and astroturfing, I guess.

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neilwilson
More of this sort of large corporate skullduggery please.

Then perhaps there will be enough political pressure to get the scam stopped.

