
Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects - Shivetya
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/germany-plans-to-dim-lights-at-night-to-save-insects/ar-BB17BlkR
======
thatguy0900
I actually was sitting outside a few nights ago and realized that there was no
more fireflies, and I couldn't remember the last time I had seen one. I used
to go out all the time during summer as a kid to catch them, they would light
up whole fields. That was just like 15 years ago. Pretty sobering realization

~~~
wenc
I'm in Chicago (in a neighborhood close to downtown) and in previous years I'd
hardly ever seen any fireflies. This year, they're everywhere -- in parks and
even in trees on neighborhood streets.

I understand fireflies are sensitive to light pollution. I can't imagine
Chicago's any different from other major cities. COVID has people staying home
a lot more but that has nothing to do with street lighting. I wonder what's
going on.

I do think that living organisms are extraordinarily adaptable if the changes
are gradual and bounded. Most of us have this idea that an ecosystem is this
delicate and fragile thing, but nature actually has a lot of robustness and
redundancies built-in (which are inefficient but increase chances of group
survival).

~~~
cmrdporcupine
We live rural southern Ontario and fireflies are usually just a single weekend
or so at the end of June or beginning of July. But this year they went on for
almost two months. They only just stopped about a week ago.

I'm not sure why it was a good season for them. Like you say, traffic,
lighting, pesticide sprays on farms, all really the same despite COVID.
Reduced air traffic I don't think would have an affect? Even after I sprayed
my vineyard with insecticide to deal with japanese beetles they were fine, and
continued to prosper in and around there.

It may just be that we've had an unusually hot dry year, I assume where you
have as well. Maybe that's advantageous for them somehow?

~~~
nashalo_nighly
I feel that I hear people say « we’re having a unusually hot dry year » every
year...

~~~
Izkata
On that note I just did a Google search for "more fireflies this year" and got
news articles saying as much from 2018, 2019, and 2020.

~~~
hinkley
It's possible that some policy changes are working.

One of my favorite memories of cycling through the midwest in the early 90's
was watching the redwing blackbird population slowly recover.

~~~
kdazzle
Wouldn’t have been a good memory if you were _running_ through the midwest. A
good chunk of the summer, they dive-bomb anyone who looks at their bush funny.
Those birds are my personal nemeses - but they’re winning.

------
42droids
German side streets are fairly dark already. This change will affect ‘large’
polluters, eg. floodlights in car parks, outside store areas, brightly lit
buildings, etc. It is a very welcomed change. In our neighbourhood ppl
knowingly plant flowers and leave grass grow ‘wild’ to support insects.

~~~
cheez
I do this too but I get bylaw visits from the city. Which cities?

~~~
aeyes
Search for wildflower seed bomb mix, you shouldn't get in trouble for this. My
mom used to do this every year when I lived in Germany, looks pretty and zero
maintenance.

~~~
qchris
These are great, but just remember to take care the seeds are for species
indigenous to your region!

------
blakesterz
I always just assumed that there are few insects now because there are so many
more insecticides in use, this is the first time I've heard of lights. There's
not much explaination in this article, but here's one with some more:

Nighttime Light Pollution May Be Cause of Insect Population Decline

[https://www.photonics.com/Articles/Nighttime_Light_Pollution...](https://www.photonics.com/Articles/Nighttime_Light_Pollution_May_Be_Cause_of_Insect/a63612)

"An analysis of the effects of artificial light at night on insects shows that
there is strong evidence to suggest a link between nighttime light pollution
and declines in insect populations."

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
It's a combination of factors. Insecticides, pollution, loss of habitat, light
pollution(especially from daylight LEDs), global warming(throwing off
reproduction timing), ubiquitous roadways and vehicles, flat surfaces(beetles
get stuck on their back).

~~~
etangent
Whenever I see someone claim a given problem is due to a combination of
factors, I get a bit suspicious. First, this seems like a way to say "I don't
really know the actual cause." Second, in the real world in situations like
these, there is almost always one overwhelming factor that accounts for >60%
of total influence. I really do wonder what that is because I like insects!

~~~
veddox
> in the real world in situations like these, there is almost always one
> overwhelming factor that accounts for >60% of total influence

That may be true when you're optimising a program, but is very much _not_ true
in ecology. The parent comment is generally correct with its list of drivers
of biodiversity loss (compare the IPBES global summary:
[https://ipbes.net/global-assessment](https://ipbes.net/global-assessment)).

A key feature of ecology is its extreme complexity and the myriad factors at
play in any given situation. Of course, there will be individual situations in
which one factor is indeed dominant. Those cases actually often end up as
textbook examples precisely because they are so rare, like the snowshoe
hare/lynx Lotka-Volterra cycles. In most situations, researchers have to
resort to some pretty advanced statistics to try and figure out what the most
important factors are. There are almost always several, and getting any one
factor to explain 60% of the variance is _very_ rare. (That's why principle
component analyses -PCAs- are so popular in ecological research papers.)

~~~
etangent
I studied ecology for a while, and have published a paper in the field. It
works exactly the same way as any complex system. If you can't pinpoint a
single factor, you're probably failing somewhere. To blame everything on "it's
a complex system" is usually a cop out from lack of knowledge, whether the
system is genuinely complex or not.

------
ashtonkem
This is good; we've badly underestimated the cost of excess light pollution.

Also good is using more LED street lamps that focus the light where we need
it, rather than all over the place. Light pollution is bad, and street lights
are very power hungry, with the old sodium lights consuming up to 0.25kWh per
hour.

~~~
masswerk
Actually, cold LED light is part of the problem. Better focusing only
mitigates the problem they are posing.

~~~
marviel
Can you explain what you mean about the risks of cold LED light? I'm
unfamiliar with this problem

~~~
masswerk
The basic light emitted by LEDs is generally quite cold (high color
temperature). We can manufacture LEDs just in a few basic colors, where the
blue ones are the most efficient. We haven't managed yet to produce something
at scale like the light typically emitted by incandescent light bulbs. RGB
light doesn't help here, since this is still emitting high temperature
components, which are only mixed with lower energized ones. One way around
this is using LEDs indirectly by energizing other light emitting materials,
like phosphor, much like it is done in LED filaments, which, of course, comes
at a cost. Simple filters don't help, since LEDs emit light only in a rather
narrow spectrum (which is also, why they are more efficient compared to other
light sources).

The problem with cold light is that it is apparently attracting insects much
more than broad spectrum incandescent light sources, even more than any
potential breeding partners, which in turn affects mating.

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
What cost? Looking back maybe 15 years all the experiments with CCFL and LEDs
were more costly than the filaments i have now. They last longer, use less,
AND make light which is pleasing and usable to me. Wheee! Almost candles!

edit: Last longer as in have already outlasted anything I had before them, the
filaments I mean. Also not really more expensive to buy. And their energy
usage is ridiculously low.

~~~
masswerk
Cost as in efficiency. (Last time I looked, filaments were rated less
efficient than direct light sources. However, they seem to become better.)

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
I'm using these [1]
[https://www.osram.com/ecat/PARATHOM%20Retrofit%20CLASSIC%20B...](https://www.osram.com/ecat/PARATHOM%20Retrofit%20CLASSIC%20B-Professional%20LED%20lamps%20with%20filament-
style%20LED%20technology-LED%20lamps-Lamps-
Digital%20Systems/com/en/GPS01_1504753/PP_EUROPE_Europe_eCat/)

~~~
BlueDingo
I'm not versed much in these filaments but from what I know, and your link,
these are just phosphor-covered LEDs, right?

What is it about your current bulbs or the filament design that makes you not
classify them as LEDs? The power use looks the same and the listed CRI of >=80
doesn't inspire confidence.

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
I didn't say that, or did I? Anyways, indeed they are chains of tiny LEDs in
series, and the substrate they are embedded in is treated somehow. As I
understand it, that gives the embedded LEDs a "Nachleuchtzeit"/ after glow
like in the CRTs of old TVs and computer screns, which can vary, as it did
with that old screen stuff too. Then there is the spatial thing, as they are
spread out in the filament, you can actually look at them without being
"blinded". It's more like the light radiates from a volume, softer, not from
one sharp point. Not that it would matter that much, who has naked bulbs? As a
result of all that there is no
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_\(acoustics\)),
no perceivable flickering at my power frequency of 50Hz. I think I'm sensitive
to that, because the line/destination signs on public transportion _do_
flicker for me when I and they both stand, not only when in motion.

Ah yes, the CRI. What can I say? I now have them everywhere, except the
cellar. I prefer warm white, which they are. I can't see 'wrong' colors with
them. Crosschecked that with a cassette of about 40 Faber-Castell color
pencils right now, during my local morning twilight. Full spectrum.

Because "retro-fit" they fit in my old sockets. They just hit a sweet spot for
me. I dim, or 'tune' them by using one to three circuits, the switches and my
rooms are wired to allow for that.

Old, but not obsolete ;-)

------
at_a_remove
This is one of those areas where I actually _am_ in favor of some pretty tight
regulation; photons spraying about leads to a tragedy of the commons rather
quickly.

Drive around -- billboards are lit up at night. Headlights might as well be
pointed into the sky and are blinding. Stores are scarcely less well-lit when
they are closed than during operating hours. I can go for a walk at night and
read a paperback the whole way. Porchlights are left on all night, for no good
reason.

Sometimes, on a my regular trips to visit a friend, we go out at around one in
the morning to a road far from other towns and I can actually see the faint
haze of the Milky Way, but in the suburbs, I am lucky to pick out thirty stars
and/or planets. I don't even think that all of this constant light makes us
any "safer."

~~~
ozim
Funny thing is that we mostly turn on the lights to keep burglars at bay. I
don't have the link but there was some article pointing out that burglars also
don't really like dark places. Like using flashlight inside of dark building
can easier give out break in. Burglars are also people so they kind of scared
of what might be in the dark, like you might miss something on the floor and
break your leg or arm and then you would be stuck at the place you broke in.

------
esarbe
While it's difficult to get hard numbers, the estimations for the decline in
insect populations range from 70% to 90% since the 1980 (for some areas).

Given that insects are one of the corner stones of our ecosystem, we can
congratulate ourselves that we are very successful in destroying our own life
support systems through predatory exploitation and sheer carelessness.

Well done.

------
ChuckMcM
Wow. I have to say that I have never considered the case where insects needed
to be saved. It seems to me that as lifeforms go, they have been the most
durable form of multi-cellular life on the planet.

That said, that there are negative systemic effects on the planet's ecosystems
that are directly related to the massive production and use of herbicides and
pesticides is not as surprising.

Light though? Even after reading that article and looking through
scholar.google to find papers that associate lighting with insect decline, I'm
not convinced the use of lighting at night has a material impact. The ratio of
unlit/lit habitat seems wildly in favor of unlit.

And yes, I understand that unlit areas are often agricultural, and those areas
contain the most insecticide/herbicides. It still appears to me that the root
cause is the use of those products in farms and not that cities are poor
replacement habitats.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Just to be clear, I'm a fan of cutting down light pollution for legitimate
reasons (energy conservation, astronomical observation, and wildlife
protection) but I twitch at reasons that are either exaggerated or misleading.
I felt that throwing in lights along with the pesticide limitations was not a
well motivated argument.

My experience has shown that when people are skeptical of your argument they
are less likely to comply voluntarily and so the good that you hoped to do is
lost and you have damaged your credibility with the people you need to support
these ideas.

A small example of this in action was back in 2010 when Google decided they
were going to stop stocking bottled water in the fridges around campus because
the "energy waste and plastic disposal problem." The only problem was that
Google regularly achieved over 95% capture of recyclable trash out of their
bins and the energy saved was on the order of maybe half a dozen employees not
commuting from San Francisco.

The real reason they wanted to do this was of course cost. They could replace
bottled water with filtered dispensers and that would save them a few pennies
per employee per month. I had a good conversation with some folks in charge
that they _could_ have said, "We're giving every employee an insulated water
bottle in your choice of size and color (12, 20, 32, or 40 oz) that you can
keep at the office and use to get water from our fancy new dispensers. This
will save us money, AND its better for the environment." That would have been
honest and gotten a good reception I believe with the rank and file. But
dressing up the reason in a cover story that everyone easily poking holes in
simply lowered morale and confidence in management.

~~~
cvendorx
I'm also completely in favor of reducing lights or even banning LED light
bulbs, which in my opinion are also harmful to humans. Let's raise fuel prices
by 100% and go back to incandescent!

But you correctly hint at the actual reason for German politics:

Nothing that hurts the economy like banning pesticides or cars will be done.
So a scapegoat is needed, in this case the lights.

------
yurlungur
I think in general all our life quality will improve if we significantly
reduce light polution. Not to mention the energy savings. Sometimes I forget
how beautiful the night sky is just because I'm usually so blind to it.

------
rspoerri
Do you remember the time when you had to clean your windshield after driving
into holidays?

~~~
theobeers
I just finished a two-week road trip from Berlin to the Black Forest and back
(with other stops in both directions). The windshield was gunked up by the
end—more than I expected, but nothing like what I remember from my childhood.

~~~
perlgeek
Same here. About two years ago we traveled through Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and
had quite some insect gunk on the wind shields. When I told my parents, they
said "we used to have that after an hour of driving" (and presumably they went
slower than we do today, not having access to fast cars in their youths).

------
Shivetya
Well as I have posted before, my neighborhood went full LED last year with
street lights and so every night is like a full moon. This has become
widespread not just in subdivisions but everywhere as people see LED lighting
as free.

Perhaps they were a bit oversold.

~~~
ip26
The low cost can definitely drive the wrong design. But if a redo is being
done, it's an opportunity to turn down power levels, use better shielding,
etc. Modern LED lights can provide the same visual acuity at both less power
as well as less lux, and with less light spillover.

------
mensetmanusman
In the U.S. town and city budgets have a pretty steady lighting investment
component.

Because LED’s got so inexpensive, instead of saving money, the savings was
used to increase the town luminosity.

Now, because we moved away from sodium lights, the amount of daytime-like blue
light being emitted during the night has skyrocketed.

Wups

------
burlesona
This seems like a great idea, and could also be a nice boon for those of us
who like to see the stars. Light pollution is a personal frustration for me as
I’ve always enjoyed stargazing but am rarely able to drive far enough out to
see very much.

------
craig_asp
This would be great for amateur astronomers too.

~~~
trentnix
And the sales of insect repellent.

------
kyuudou
I used to point this out to hipster trendies who illuminate their trees at
night. Don't they consider nocturnal life that are dependent on solar cycles
for proper circadian rhythms? Seems disruptive. I got the impression the trees
were a bit miffed.

~~~
entropie
Having light polution in your habitat during night cycles can make certain
plants mutate or make them hermaphrodite while growing indoors. The light from
a socket distributor might be enough.

------
agentultra
This is such a great idea. I hope the insecticide regulations go far to
restrict some of the worst offenders. Insects, arachnids, and all of our
invertebrate, carapace flaunting friends are essential to our health and
survival.

I hope my country will follow suit...

------
Solstinox
...and get better sleep.

~~~
WarOnPrivacy
Amen. I would kill for this. I keep my own outside lights off, so there's a
bit less blindy light pollution on my end of the street. It's the same reason
I never report the nearby street lights when they go out.

The best outdoor light is less.

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
Ahem... I seem to recall that the masts of most streetlights are rather thin.
Which meant that one could kick them a few times in ways that make the mast
swing. Which could be rather large and abrupt swings at the top, which led to
"Wackelkontakt"/ loss of contact, and thus darkness. It was even reversible!

Your own personal kick switch for public street lights!

~~~
luckylion
That's a good way to get in trouble, and rightfully so. We're not having
streetlights because we want to kill insects, we have them for safety reasons.
You do not want to travel in absolute darkness in a city with cars around.

Trying to interfere with that because you're too lazy to buy a black-out
curtain is a terrible idea.

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
What if I'd like to be able to see some stars from my bed? Furthermore, not
every light, sign makes sense at the place it is. They are mostly stamped out
at regular intervals "because we say so".

~~~
luckylion
> What if I'd like to be able to see some stars from my bed?

"My comfort should trump everyone's safety"? Still no.

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
And the cars you spoke of are stealthed, running dark, or what?

/me shakes head and thinks "Here is your sign! Hold it!"

~~~
jacobsenscott
I'll take "what?" \- with "what?" being my headlights only point straight
ahead. They don't curve with the road or illuminate the sides of the roads
where kids/animals can dart out. I live in a neighborhood with lots of kids
and pets.
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S038611121...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0386111212000325)

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
[https://www.porschefremont.com/porsche-dynamic-light-
system/](https://www.porschefremont.com/porsche-dynamic-light-system/)

------
veddox
Glad to see they're on to this. However, I gather that this is still a
"Referentenentwurf" \- i.e. a first draft written up by the ministry staff.
This still needs to be approved by the cabinet before even going into
parliamentary proceedings. So it's hard to say just how much will actually
come of this.

------
dandare
One summer night I stopped at this petrol station in a woodland area - the
neon panels had many inches of dead insect in them. Tens of thousands of
specimen, just like that.

------
diebeforei485
One of the mistakes I see being made is replacing old orange/yellow halogen
bulbs with white/"blue" LED streetlights.

This is wrong. They should stick to ~2500K bulbs.

------
odiroot
Can you get even darker? Streetlights in Berlin (for example) are already
uncomfortably dim.

~~~
csunbird
Exactly, I hate driving at night in Berlin, because of the insufficient
lighting.

------
yelloworangefog
I'm not German, but I'm in favor of reducing light pollution in general. I
like being able to at least kinda see the night sky.

------
fortran77
There's technology now to put streetlamps on motion detectors. They can have
them very dim until they're needed.

~~~
astrea
I feel like that would be nauseating for residents on heavily trafficked roads

~~~
progre
Maybe there should't be residents near heavily trafficked roads at all.

~~~
readarticle
Why exactly do you think they’re heavily trafficked?

------
duaoebg
I always wonder how much of the reduction in cleaning of glass can be
attributed to better aerodynamics and better glass.

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
Motor cyclists and bicyclists tell the same. I as a bicyclist do too. Because
apart from the sting of the wind in the eyes it was necessary to drive with
sports glasses/lenses/some visor because otherwise you'd be almost certainly
hit by insects in the face or eye. That isn't the case anymore. There simply
are less of them in the air.

------
codeduck
I wish more places would do this. It would be amazing for plantlife, wildlife
and amateur astronomy.

~~~
the8472
Several other european countries already have introduced similar laws. E.g.
slovenia, croatia, czechia.

[https://artificiallightatnight.weebly.com/uploads/3/7/0/5/37...](https://artificiallightatnight.weebly.com/uploads/3/7/0/5/37053463/mohar.pdf)
[https://www.darksky.org/croatian-light-pollution-
law/](https://www.darksky.org/croatian-light-pollution-law/)
[https://english.radio.cz/lower-house-passes-dark-sky-
law-805...](https://english.radio.cz/lower-house-passes-dark-sky-law-8059407)

------
dependenttypes
I am wondering, is there any benefit to having insects in cities specifically?
I would understand if this was a law specifically for rural enviroment but
what is the benefit for this in the city?

Also, other than bees, which insects specifically benefit humans?

------
database_lost
My experience in Germany was that a lot of small streets were already pretty
dimly lit...

------
moneytide1
Light pollution seems to be a good thing to suppress in general (a bonus for
astrological sight-seeing). Could one factor be that constant light negatively
affects insect (and plant) circadian rhythms?

~~~
veddox
I think you meant "astronomical" sight-seeing? ;-)

Yes, constant light does have a strong effect on animal circadian rhythms, but
for insects, the problem is rather that they exhaust themselves from flying
around the light source too long.

------
tpmx
Also Germany: Shuts down nuclear plants and lights up more coal plants.

~~~
qayxc
More coal plants is incorrect and the shutdown of the nuclear power plants was
planned anyway. Since the mid 1980s no less...

Basically most of the plants that were shut down simply didn't get their
runtime extended again and would've been shut down in a few years anyway.

And the utility companies owning them get billions in compensation and don't
have o pay for waste disposal of all the irradiated parts either...

Facts that nuclear proponents always conveniently ignore...

~~~
tpmx
[https://www.powermag.com/germany-brings-last-new-coal-
plant-...](https://www.powermag.com/germany-brings-last-new-coal-plant-
online/)

> What is expected to be the last new coal plant to come online in Germany
> entered commercial operation on May 30, more than a decade after it was
> first planned.

> The 1,100-MW Datteln 4 power plant, owned by Uniper and located in Datteln
> in the North Rhine-Westphalia region, opened despite the German government’s
> stated plan to end coal-fired power generation in the country.

------
acd
This reminds me of my local cities new flashy sport arena. The sport arena has
flood lights to make a UFO landing look good. Cant see anything of the night
sky with these on. It is also using a lot of power.

I remember star nights walking outside as a kid seeing the Milky way Galaxy
full of stars.

As for ordinary street lights, the purpose of street lights are for crime
prevention, but there is motion sensors. Do we really need to have the lights
on with no one on a street?

------
tengbretson
Do they have any places outside of cities and towns that these insects might
thrive in Germany?

------
pers0n
Stop mowing your lawn (perhaps back yard) and you'll see a ton of insects
(huge grasshoppers, big spiders, ants, etc) by the end of summer. mowing lawns
hurts insects also

------
rafaelvasco
Talking about dimming lights: Life tip: At night after dinner, turn off all
the lights of your house. Use only weak led lights. You'll sleep much better,
feel better and save on energy bills.

------
maskedinvader
This is awesome , I wish more countries did the same. Also good news for
stargazers, you see more stars at night when city lights are dim or use
protection to avoid light pollution.

------
dutch3000
this is great. also, why must every stinking device have a light letting you
know the device is on or sleeping or whatever. so annoying. monitors,
printers, cable modems, routers, everything has freaking, annoying blinking
lights. i have to use dark tape to cover it all.

------
sizzle
Wonder if this will increase crime rates...

Thoughts?

~~~
Jweb_Guru
Most german towns have virtually no crime to begin with and I doubt this will
change because lights are dimmer.

------
hairytrog
The machine never slows down to protect weaker species. Such plan may be an
attempt to lower power demand at night and make the demand curve more closely
match Germany's wind/solar supply curve. It's an effort to lower costs and
lower demand for power they'd have to buy from coal/natural gas.

------
b34r
Also: stars

------
mensetmanusman
Insects are dead because we manufacturer billions of liters of insect-killing
liquid to spray fields to feed billions of humans.

Starvation levels have dramatically declined over the last century.

Now, we need to fix the problem we induced in our goal to feed the world.

The only known solution is vertical farming.

~~~
hh3k0
> Insects are dead because we manufacturer billions of liters of insect-
> killing liquid to spray fields to feed billions of humans.

That surely plays a role, too. Light pollution of street lights in Germany,
however, kills an estimated 1 billion insects _per night_.

And then there's cars on the Autobahn, of course. They kill an estimated 100
billion insects per German summer.

------
auganov
What's the benefit for humans and why can't it be done any other way?

I'm not a big fan of encountering insects. Very weird to see someone would
actually want to protect them in cities.

> Light traps for insects are to be banned outdoors

So you won't be able to kill mosquitoes outside?

~~~
danparsonson
Insects are a vital part of Earth's ecosystem, providing food for larger
animals and (especially crucial for us) pollination.

> So you won't be able to kill mosquitoes outside?

There are plenty of other, more specific ways to do that, no? The problem with
light traps is they are indiscriminate.

Not to mention that if you apply some repellent, you don't need to kill them
at all.

~~~
auganov
> There are plenty of other, more specific ways to do that, no? The problem
> with light traps is they are indiscriminate.

Well you do usually want to kill as many as possible. Bringing up mosquitoes
because it's one of the most common. I cannot go out and sit down in my garden
if I have insects flying around. Unless they keep an appropriate distance as
to not be intimidating.

> Not to mention that if you apply some repellent

If you mean the skin applied kind it's totally unsatisfactory.

There are chemical sprays/diffusers that work very well, but even though they
are marketed as "repellent" they absolutely do kill mosquitoes and many
others. That's what I usually use.

~~~
danparsonson
> Well you do usually want to kill as many as possible.

Indiscriminate across species - those traps kill everything, not just
mosquitoes. I'm sorry that you find insects intimidating but killing
everything is not the answer to that and in the long run, unless you don't
care about having food, ultimately counterproductive.

> If you mean the skin applied kind it's totally unsatisfactory.

Why? I've spent a lot of time in tropical countries and found it very
effective. Even just a running fan keeps most mozzies away as they aren't
generally strong fliers.

The overarching issue is that we need to coexist with our many-legged
brethren, however inconvenient it may be.

~~~
auganov
I have an extremely hard time believing average citizens are having such a
huge effect. This German law seems to have been spurred by some study saying
that over the last few decades the flying insect population has dropped by a
big percentage in Germany. Yet cannot find any information as to any adverse
effect it had on anything. Nor is it obvious what exactly caused this drop.

The logic here seems to be "insect populations are dropping so let's forbid
some things that are killing insects".

> Why? I've spent a lot of time in tropical countries and found it very
> effective. Even just a running fan keeps most mozzies away as they aren't
> generally strong fliers.

They'll still fly around you. Sure when traveling somewhere that's the only
solution.

Chemical diffusers work best for me. I rarely go outside, just deploy it as
needed and it takes care of the problem pretty fast.

But say someone has a restaurant/whatever with an outside area. In addition to
periodic chemical treatments, you might want to have a bunch of light traps in
your arsenal.

And the article does talk about limiting use of insecticides too but isn't too
clear on that.

~~~
danparsonson
> The logic here seems to be "insect populations are dropping so let's forbid
> some things that are killing insects".

And the counterargument is - let's keep killing them anyway? Why is that more
logical?

It's the same logic as - fly/drive/heat less, to reduce carbon release; eat
less meat to reduce land usage and methane release; etc.

It seems to me that maybe the primary reason we're doing so much damage to our
planet is a combination of

a) for most people, personal convenience > planetary health, and b) as you
say: "I have an extremely hard time believing average citizens are having such
a huge effect"

The latter is especially pernicious - we are so successful as a species
because, working together, we can achieve tremendous changes that aren't
possible alone. But that potential for collective action can also have
severely negative effects as well. Even a mountain can be leveled eventually
if you keep chipping away at it. As an example of collective action, take a
trip to Borneo and drive the 100km route from Tawau to Semporna - palm
plantations literally as far as the eye can see in every direction, the whole
route; it used to be rain forest. Individuals working together (whether
deliberately or unknowingly) have a lot more power than they think.

Am I making sense? I'm not sure what's difficult to grasp about all this.

------
ourlordcaffeine
I wonder if it will make any noticeable difference for astronomers.

------
mensetmanusman
Our ancestors had it right, sodium lamps are better than LEDs.

------
UncleOxidant
Maybe they could have a word with Bayer?

------
brainzap
It would also save humans btw.

------
mani557
Very nice

------
zackmorris
The best thing we can do on a personal level is to stop using broadleaf
weedkillers like Scott's Weed and Feed and other herbicides like glyphosate
(Roundup).

I've been doing handyman work at my boss's house during COVID-19 and he has
clover growing in his yard. He has a fair number of bees, certainly more than
on my end of town which is all chemlawns.

It's arguably ok to use a little weed killer by hand on dandelions if you must
(better to spray 2-3 courses of vinegar instead). But killing all clover,
morning glories, and other broadleaf flowers in lawns has led to the near-
extinction of bees in residential areas. Herbicides and pesticides in
agriculture wiped out the rest.

Edit: fixed the first sentence to distinguish between broadleaf herbicides and
glyphosate (which kills everything).

~~~
GordonS
I never going the obsession with pristine lawns without clover, daisies, moss
and such. I actually think it looks quite nice with some variation.

My wife is militant about this, insisting that our lawn is sprayed with
horrible chemicals at least once a year to kill off the clover, daisies and
moss.

Seems such a pointless thing to do, and very obviously not good for wildlife.

~~~
faitswulff
Clover also doesn’t get as tall as grass, which obviates the need for mowing
the lawn. And the rabbits quite like it.

~~~
StavrosK
A friend of mine worked at an agronomist's, and at one point a customer walked
in looking to buy a bag of clover for his garden. My friend gave him the wrong
bag by mistake, and the customer came back a few months later to tell the
agronomist that he now had to park his car over the new spinach plants
EVERYWHERE.

------
shekharshan
"Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with
the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. Instead you multiply, and
multiply, until every resource is consumed. The only way for you to survive is
to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that
follows the same pattern... a virus" \-- Agent Smith (The Matrix)

~~~
luckylion
Well ...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Matthew_Island#Mammals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Matthew_Island#Mammals)

~~~
shekharshan
Exactly, we are getting overconfident in our ability to control the planet and
its resources. I believe we are privileged to share this planet with other
beings. Instead we treat animals like some kind of inanimate resource.

~~~
graeme
You missed their point. The link shows that reindeer also multiplied far past
their carrying point. Agent smith is wrong, plenty of mammals will overshoot
given the opportunity.

~~~
scintill76
Well, it was with our help...

> In 1944, 29 reindeer were introduced to the island by the United States
> Coast Guard to provide an emergency food source. The Coast Guard abandoned
> the island a few years later, leaving the reindeer.

~~~
graeme
Yeah. But, species will do it regardless. It’s an easy to point to example,
that’s all.

But species do it without human help. I remember caterpillars had boom bust
cycles in my hometown as a kid. They’d eat all the leaves and die off.

------
quattrofan
Germany saves the insects, China empties the oceans.

~~~
dang
Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar, regardless
of which nations are at issue.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
thiago_fm
I wonder how many centuries it might take for the US to start to care about
insects or the environment like some European countries do with the recent
regress in policies overall that isn't about ONLY increasing overall GDP in
the US.

And I say this even not considering Trump, which is a big menace. But democrat
candidates in the US also don't care about the environment, not showing much
promise. So do the Americans in general with their huge SUVs and completely
unhealthy lifestyles(for them and the environment). I wonder how much this
shitshow can go on.

~~~
pointillistic
Some European countries, named here, only very recently cared more about
insects than people.

~~~
yokaze
> Some European countries, named here, only very recently cared more about
> insects than people.

How is it "more about than"? What are the costs to people by mandating dimming
the light?

~~~
hirundo
> What are the costs to people by mandating dimming the light?

It makes it harder to see at night.

~~~
saagarjha
That’s not really “more than”, is it? You need to weigh the size of the
benefit with the amount of convenience.

------
macinjosh
What is more important? Your nan walking home from the corner store after dark
under a street light or a beetle?

Germany: beetles!

~~~
Scottopherson
If we decimate the insect population there won't be any nans or corner stores.
If a street light is the only thing keeping your nan safe then maybe your area
has bigger safety issues to address.

Regardless, for any issue there is usually middle ground to be found and snark
comments like yours do nothing to help find or support it.

~~~
macinjosh
How dare you use your privilege of living in a safe community to attack my
experiences? I think you have some real work to do on yourself.

------
dcgudeman
Posts like this are really disappointing to me. I come to hacker news to read
about technology and startups. If I wanted to read about general news topics
(bees, insects, glyphosate, general monsanto hate, etc...) I would frequent
google news, CNN, or reddit.

~~~
yelloworangefog
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes
> more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the
> answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

------
LXanb
There are loads of foxes and bats in big cities in Germany already. There are
tons of insects as well.

Humans are already not allowed to build anywhere because of environmental
regulations (unless you are a corrupt politician) and to keep the rents high.

Germany is getting more and more ridiculous. People must use energy saving
bulbs to increase the profit for Philips, but one can legally burn 100l of
fuel per day in a car.

Noise laws are lagging behind but insects need to be protected.

~~~
masswerk
Insects are kind of vital to us. Without them, you can't have crops or fruits,
no agriculture. The drop in population is already concerning.

~~~
anxkll
Drop according to whom? The people whose jobs depend on the alleged drop?

Yesterday I had 10 flies and 5 mosquitoes simultaneously in my room. What do
the bats eat? They are everywhere.

There are more bats, foxes, rats and insects in big cities than ever before.

~~~
veddox
> Drop according to whom? The people whose jobs depend on the alleged drop?

Speaking as an ecologist here, colleagues of mine were authors on one of the
recent studies on insect decline in Germany
([https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1684-3](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1684-3)).
Believe me, we'd rather study other things than how fast nature is
disappearing.

Also, foxes and rats have nothing to do with insect levels.

~~~
yalsk
Foxes and rats have very much to do with the fact that the government is
telling us that species are disappearing and need protection while there was
literally a fox trying to enter my house via an open door pretty much in the
city.

This has never happened 20 years ago, so someone is lying.

It is a massive credibility problem created by ideologues who will deny the
foxes until there are 5 in every apartment.

~~~
veddox
That is a pretty accusatory tone...

There are probably over 10 million species of plants and animals in the world.
Of course some of these are going to be better at coping with humans and their
cities than others. As you correctly observe, foxes happen to be some of the
best at adapting to city life. If you want more examples, just take a look
here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_wildlife](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_wildlife)

However, these exceptions change nothing whatsoever about the fact that _in
general_ , species very much are in decline and many are about to, or have
already disappeared. Indeed, when we look at cities around the world, only 20%
of bird species and 5% of plant species actually live in such an environment
([https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4027400/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4027400/)).
Outside cities, the picture is not much better. Some species, like the crested
lark in Europe, have suffered over 95% population drops. Others, like the
passenger pigeon, have gone entirely extinct. I‘m citing bird examples here
because we tend to have the best data for them (we have numerous birdwatching
records reaching back 300 years), but I could cite others. In the last
decades, an increasing number of observations suggest that by now, even
insects are beginning to decline. And if you want to know what it‘s like when
they‘re dead, just ask the Chinese labourers who are already having to
pollinate apple blossoms _by hand_ , because all the bees are gone...

~~~
Akeewiu
You are again evading the pertinent question. For the ideologues, foxes are an
endangered species:

[https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/tierschutz-
fuchs/](https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/tierschutz-fuchs/)

It is _a crime_ to hurt a fox!

But I am sure that if there are 5 foxes per person in Germany, there will be a
new "Referentenentwurf" and everyone will ask how this could possibly have
happened.

If you cannot see how this hurts credibility, you have to get out of your
ecological bubble. Why should people believe numbers on insects if numbers for
other animals are clearly wrong?

~~~
veddox
OK, let's clear up some confusion here.

You need to differentiate between endangered species and protected species,
and between biodiversity conservation ("Naturschutz") and animal rights
("Tierschutz").

The fox is _not_ an endangered species, as both the German and the global red
lists show
([https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/23062/46190249](https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/23062/46190249),
[https://www.rote-liste-
zentrum.de/de/Detailseite.html?specie...](https://www.rote-liste-
zentrum.de/de/Detailseite.html?species_id=816&q=S%C3%A4ugetiere)).

It is, however, a _protected_ species in Germany (Anhang 1 BArtSchV), though
at the lower protection level ("besonders geschützt", not "streng geschützt").
Note, however, that _there are multiple reasons to give a species legal
protection_. These include a need for conservation (not the case here), but
also ethical implications (higher animals like birds and mammals generally
enjoy higher protection levels than insects or plants) and cultural reasons
(in this case, the fox is a huntable species, which means that it falls under
the _Jagdgesetz_ ).

In short: yes, the fox is protected, but that doesn't automatically mean that
it's also endangered.

------
balozi
The cynic in me views this as yet another attempt at fethishizing nature by
people who choose to live in sterile urban environments. The problem with this
type of fetishization is that it eventually combines with class privilege to
produce narrow public policy that seldom promotes the public good.

Furthermore, those that live in less-urbanized less-sterile locales are
painfully aware that nature and her army of insects always has the upper hand.

~~~
travisporter
Inherent in your statement is the idea that privileged people choose to live
in urban environments, which is probably false half the time. I choose to live
closer to work in an apartment to minimize my costs and travel time. I would
love a backyard.

------
pvaldes
Ironically this would create a better surveillance net. With a high light in
the background you obtain black silhouettes. With low or none light in the
background UV cameras are perfectly able to take photos in pitch black, and a
low level of light gave you faces of the suspects instead.

So perhaps, maybe, "speculation in action", this is not only useful or
exclusively about insects

~~~
allendoerfer
No, this is actually about insects.

