

Ask HN: Emigrating Down Under - bartonfink

Hi, everyone -<p>My wife and I have been discussing leaving the U.S. to emigrate for an extended period of time (10+ years). We have a new baby, and while we're not looking to leave immediately, we're hoping to depart sometime in the next two to five years.<p>Our primary consideration is that we're looking for a place where English is a primary spoken language. My wife and I also speak conversational German, and although we're not averse to learning another language, we'd really prefer to not learn one unnecessarily. Secondly, my wife intends to get her Ph. D (or equivalent) studying religion in early Japan, and as such, relatively easy geographic access to Japan is something we're looking for. Finally, it's got to be somewhere with some form of a software industry so I can actually earn a living and not be a deadbeat immigrant. Of course, all of these considerations hinge on the assumption that a place that meets them will also be safe and able to provide an adequate ("first world") standard of safety and care for the baby. Two countries that are very high on our list are Australia and New Zealand. That's not an exhaustive list, but anywhere else would have to fit the constraints above.<p>I have three ?'s that come to mind about possible locations. Like I said above, the two primary countries we're investigating are Australia and New Zealand, but I'm open to other suggestions. I was hoping that someone in the HN community might either live in one of those countries or be familiar enough with the immigration process and the culture to shed some light on this and give us some pointers while we're laying the groundwork for eventual emigration. The three ?'s are:<p>1.) What are our prospects for staying abroad long-term? Assuming my wife gets admitted to something like a Ph. D program, she's probably going to be eligible for some kind of student visa, but I'm not sure what that entails w/r/t me being able to work or for our daughter being able to enroll in school. I'm not completely averse to switching citizenships if necessary, but that's a last resort. There's very little tying us to the U.S. except the accident of our births here, so we're hoping that this move will be nearly permanent. What are our chances for that?<p>2.) What's the equivalent to the American Ph. D in said country? In Australia, it looks like you don't earn a Ph. D per se. Rather, you seem to earn some sort of post-grad diploma by independent research or coursework. My wife's ultimate goal is to teach at the collegiate level, and the traditional approach for this in the U.S. is to earn a Ph. D (which entails a sizeable research component under an advisor). Other countries have colleges with highly educated faculties, but the bit of research I've done on her behalf suggests that they come from different processes than we're familiar with in the U.S. What is the equivalent to a Ph. D, and the academic career prospects it provides?<p>3.) What's the best way for me to scout jobs overseas? This relocation is a long-term project, so I'd have plenty of time to spend. I wouldn't even mind making a career move here in the U.S. to facilitate the jump. However, I'm curious what the best ways to approach the problem are. Working remotely for a company in, e.g., the U.S. is an option I'd happily consider, but I'd want exceptional stability before I staked my emigration on that. Again, I have a family and I'm not particularly interested in interrupting their lives and dragging them around the world without something fairly stable on the other side.<p>tl; dr - has anyone here emigrated from the U.S. for an extended period of time? What did you do that made the process easier or harder? What would you recommend for someone looking to do the same?
======
sgentle
IANAL, but I am an Australian who recently walked his Irish girlfriend through
the immigration/residency process.

1) As educated white people, you'll be fine. Specifically, your wife will want
to apply for a student visa once she's accepted into a PhD program. My
understanding is that it's basically a rubber stamp if you're on "Assessment
level 1" - which you get automatically by being from the USA. The family all
get to live and work in Australia on that visa (only once she's started
studying) and you can work full-time if she's postgraduate (see here:
[http://www.immi.gov.au/students/_pdf/permission-to-work-
stud...](http://www.immi.gov.au/students/_pdf/permission-to-work-
students.pdf))

There's a lot more information here: <http://www.immi.gov.au/students/>

Once she's finished, you'll need to switch to another visa to become a
permanent resident, probably this one:
[http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-
migration/885...](http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-
migration/885/)

2) I'm not sure where you heard that, but to my knowledge PhDs here are the
same as elsewhere. Becoming a lecturer generally requires a PhD, which is a
degree attained through high-level research under an advisor, requiring a
masters or honours degree.

You may be thinking of masters by research/masters by coursework, which have
the distinctions you're talking about (although with masters by research you
still have an advisor). There are also graduate certificates and diplomas,
which are basically the short-course equivalent of masters degrees. You can
read more on Wikipedia:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Qualifications_Frame...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Qualifications_Framework)

3) Our three main general job sites are monster.com.au, seek.com.au, and
mycareer.com.au - they suffer from (I imagine) the same problems big job sites
would in other countries, which is to say they're full of recruiters and have
a low SNR.

If you're looking for something in tech, you're often better contacting the
source directly. Most Australian tech companies have a standing we're-hiring-
just-send-us-a-resume policy. For example:

<http://www.atlassian.com/about/careers/>

<http://www.google.com.au/intl/en/jobs/>

<http://careers.microsoft.com/careers/en/au/home.aspx>

Alternatively, if you're looking for startup work there's a quite active
mailing list called Silicon Beach: <http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-
beach-australia>

And a specific silicon-beach-jobs list (set up only recently):
<http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-jobs>

Hope that helps!

~~~
bartonfink
Thanks for the advice, sgentle. You're right on the masters thing. I checked
again, and that is, in fact, what I was looking at - the university department
I was looking at just didn't offer a doctorate.

Do you know if a company needs to sponsor my visa in the same way the U.S.
sponsors H1-B's? Do you think that would cause any difficulties after my
wife's student visa expires?

~~~
sgentle
There are two main kinds of "Skilled Migrant" visa. The sponsored kind, called
a 457, requires a specific employer and is valid only during your employment:
<http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/sbs/> \- it's probably closest
to the US H1-B Visa

There is also an independent (ie, non-sponsored) permanent work visa, which
has a points-based assessment depending on what skills you have:
[http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-
migration/175...](http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-
migration/175/)

And additionally a permanent "employer nominated" (essentially sponsored) visa
which is easier to get than the independent kind if you have an employer
willing to sponsor you: <http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/ens/>

Your wife, when she finishes her degree, might be eligible for this one:
[http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-
migration/885...](http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-
migration/885/) \- it's also point-based assessment, though, and I'm not sure
if "University Lecturer" is on the list. Most engineering disciplines are,
though (including software development and software engineering), so if that's
you then you should be fine.

The visas generally include a provision for family, so if your wife gets a
visa you should be okay, and if she can't and you can, that should be okay as
well.

I'm getting a bit out of my depth at this point, since I've only been involved
in student, working holiday, and partner visas before. I hope I've given you
useful general advice, but it may well be only a partial picture of the
skills-based immigration situation.

You can get a lot of information from the immigration website:
<http://www.immi.gov.au/immigration/> but if you're serious about this I would
consult an immigration lawyer or a migration agent. The latter are usually a
lot cheaper than the former. Make sure your agent has a MARN number (that
means they're certified by the Australian Government and actually know what
they're talking about). I don't have any specific recommendations, but my
girlfriend talked to visafirst.com when she was getting her student visa and
said they were nice.

~~~
bartonfink
Awesome. Thank you so much for your help. If you need anything, drop a line.

------
rdhn
Relevance: I emigrated to New Zealand in 1999 then Australia a few years
later. I'm back in the UK now so have no local knowledge, but here's what I
know from going through the process for both countries.

Australia and New Zealand operate a points system for immigration and
regularly publish lists of desired occupations. You get points for years of
work experience, educational level, field of expertise. If you can prove you
match a desired occupation then the requirements drop.

It may be simpler for you to get a visa, rather than your wife. If you get
accepted for residency (no need to give up citizenship) you are entitled to
work and bring in dependents. From what I remember student visas tend to have
restrictions about who else can be admitted on them.

Residency = five years before you have to renew (when I had it, may have
changed now). In both countries, if you were still in the country at the end
of your residency you qualified for citizenship. So to answer your question,
if you get in, chances of staying long-term are good. Australia and New
Zealand are actively growing their populations and keen to add the right
skills.

No other suggestions for you. I can recommend Auckland, Sydney and Melbourne
as awesome places.

------
maxdemarzi
My girlfriend and I took a 3 week trip to New Zealand and Australia in
December looking at a possible relocation from the U.S. and we passed.

Speaking as an almost ignorant visitor:

Immigration is not an issue, the point system will take care of that. Salaries
in NZ are much lower than in Australia, and it seems people jump to Australia
if they can. Auckland is great (if a bit industrial in areas) but once you've
seen the country, going anywhere means taking a flight and $.

Australia taxes are high (and permanent, taxed on world wide income if you
become a citizen) and salaries for professionals seem to have a narrow range
so that there is a strong middle class, but you need to be in finance to reach
salaries in the 6 figures.

Sydney is amazing, but very expensive. Melbourne is a nice second and more
affordable, but salaries are also lower. We didn't checkout Brisbane.

Great vacation, not so sure about leaving the US for it.

~~~
muruke
Interesting, I'm in Australia and in IT and know many people in IT making
salaries of 6 figures.

That being said I've heard similar things about US. Clearly everyone will
experience something different. Also for Tech, US clearly has more (not that
we have none) opportunities.

------
derrida
Sydney is a great place to live, but is very expensive. To be an academic you
need a PhD but in the humanities you will also need to be a Post-Doc (Paid
Post-Doctoral Student) for a few years before you can be sure it's 'in the
bag'. The equivalent of Professor in the US is called a Lecturer here. To be a
Professor in Australia means you are Grand poo-bah in your department. Like in
the top 3 or 4 people. (Departments are still the same size, eg Sydney Uni
philosophy has about 40-60 people on the pay role.

I believe anyone who is a resident can have free education in primary schools,
we even have selective primary schools. Some are better depending on the area
you are in.

------
sydney123
1) For Australia you have 2 options for long-term stay:

\- Your wife comes in under a student visa, and you + your baby come in as her
dependents. If you do this option you will be able to work full time, but
actually getting the student visa this way is expensive; your wife needs to
demonstrate existing financial capacity to support herself and all her
dependents.

Upon receiving her PhD your wife can apply for PR

\- You and/or your wife come in under the skilled migration program, which you
can get if your skills match the Skilled Occupation List. There are different
visa subclasses (e.g. sponsored by an employer) but the gist is the same.

The student visa is processed quickly but is expensive (they will check your
bank statements).

The skilled migration visa is much slower, so if you're thinking of coming
over in 2 years time, you should be applying for this visa NOW.

2) There are absolutely PhD programs in Australia, a dozen of my colleagues in
Sydney have PhDs and I know more students currently working on their thesis /
research paper. You do your PhD research under an advisor. It would be rare
for a professor in any Australian university to NOT have a PhD. I'm baffled by
this point actually.

3) One way would be to get a job at a multinational, then get an 'internal'
transfer to the US. At my last job (New York-based company with an office in
Sydney) we got a lot of Americans coming this way.

If you were just poking around looking at available jobs visit Seek.com.au -
it is the dominant job search website in Australia. There are others
(CareerOne, MyCareer) but almost all the job ads you see there you'll see on
Seek.

~~~
bartonfink
Hey, sydney -

Thanks for the advice. There's no way my wife is going to be able to
demonstrate financial capacity to support a family on her own. She's a student
and a homemaker, so unless they're literally just checking bank statements and
I deposit my paycheck into an account with her name on it, this doesn't sound
like it's going to work.

I'll pull the trigger on the skilled migration visa when things are more
solid, but it's good to know that there is a big lead time for this process.

As for the Ph. D thing, someone else pointed out that masters degrees have the
research/coursework distinction I was talking about. They were called
postgraduate diplomas where I looked, and the departments I checked didn't
offer Ph. D's, so I'm straight there.

------
duncan_bayne
sgentle has pretty much answered all your questions from the perspective of
immigration procedure. Here are my somewhat random impressions & suggestions
...

In terms of the IT industry, it's pretty strong at the moment in Australia.
Work - both contracts and full-time employment - is fairly thick on the ground
at the moment for mainstream stuff like .NET, Java and Rails (can't believe
I'm writing that).

In terms of finding work I strongly recommend hitting up some reputable
employment agencies before you arrive. I definitely advise renting
accommodation rather than buying, & working as a contractor when you first
arrive. Allows you to get a feel for the industry, the country, where you want
to live, etc. without being tied down. Contract rates _can_ be very good
indeed, I know one dev lead (admittedly with a freakishly good resume) who's
on four figures per day in the .NET space, but $500 - $800 is the norm for
.NET devs with solid experience.

The driving licence system here is harsh beyond belief. I suggest you both
obtain a full drivers licence before moving here, as you can just get it
exchanged for a full Australian licence with minimal hassle. If you came over,
say, on your equivalent of a learner's it'd take you years to obtain your full
licence here.

Australia is a pretty safe place for the most part - I've been living here for
years & never had a problem. Australian culture & law is resolutely against
personal armaments of any sort, although of course all Police go armed (it's
good to be the King). If you routinely go armed in the U.S. prepare to switch
to 'under the radar' weaponry like flashlights.

Australian beer is generally very good, but at least in Victoria is heavily
taxed & so quite expensive compared with New Zealand. Homebrewing is legal &
attracts no additional tax. Costs ~ $30 for 23 litres of good homebrew which
is fantastically cheap. IIRC, distilling spirits is legal but requires you to
register for some kind of tax.

My friend & business partner informs me that cars are quite expensive compared
to the U.S. I doubt it would be practical to ship a car from the U.S. but I
wish I'd shipped our Honda Civic over from New Zealand when we moved.

According to the same guy, mobile phone charges (data, voice & SMS) are
insanely high in Australia compared with the US. But then Australia seemed
_so_ much cheaper than New Zealand when I moved here.

Here in Melbourne one can live in a reasonably cheap area that'd heavily
forested (like Upwey, where I live) and be 45 - 60 minutes from town by train.
Mass transport here is currently usable but experiencing unsustainable growth.
In particular train services are becoming unreliable, especially when it's hot
or during heavy rain. Motorcycles are a good bet in Melbourne, as footpath
parking is legal in most places. Car parking in the city is expensive & often
hard to get ... better off driving to an outlying train station & catching a
train. That's known as "park & ride" here.

People in Melbourne are friendly. Especially when you get out to the outlying
areas like Upwey ... I recently walked out of the local bottle shop to find a
random stranger patting my dogs who were in the back of my Land Rover. We got
to talking, then the bottle shop owner came out for a chat ... relaxed &
easygoing.

Racism can be an issue. I've not seen much in private-sector IT (my current
team has one native-born Australian, one Chinese, one New Zealander, one
Indian, one Czech, & one Englishman) but I've seen a fair bit in other
industries, especially towards Australian Aborigines. You see the odd ute with
a sticker that reads "fuck off, we're full" ... funny but I'd have thought the
Aborigines would've had cause to print those 200 years ago, not red-neck white
Australians in the 21st Century ;-)

Sport is very popular. In particular, cricket in summer & AFL in winter. I
don't play AFL but have played (once, as a substitute) for a local cricket
club, and played a season of indoor cricket too. Well worth checking out,
especially if you have children. Australian sportsmen are _hard_ , in my
experience. Three players on the team I was subbing for suffered injuries
(damaged knee, dislocated finger, serious concussion) & all three players
refused to retire. The chap with concussion was hospitalised the next day with
disorientation & memory loss. Much beer was had afterwards as well. Work hard,
play hard is the culture.

------
rdouble
I spent 3 months looking for a job in Melbourne earlier this year. Australia
is great, but developer salaries are poor compared to the cost of living.
Tilers and other tradies make more than programmers. You'll live like a king
if you get an electrician qualification. There are few interesting jobs. There
are a handful of startups with cool ideas, but no budget and no way to sponsor
a visa. If you must stick with programming, Google in Sydney is probably your
best bet. If you don't care about the work and just need a job, there are as
many generic IT-style programming jobs in Sydney & Melbourne as in any large
western city.

------
gnat
You'll get "relatively easy geographic access to Japan" from all three places:
It's 12h from NZ or Melbourne, 9h from Sydney--compared to 10h from SFO. Once
you start a flight that long, three extra hours is noise.

~~~
bartonfink
True, but I don't live in SFO and have no interest in living there, as I'm
trying to leave the country.

~~~
brudgers
Vancouver, BC?

------
netpenthe
what type of work are you in?

australia is basically a mine and a farm. so if you're a miner or farmer, it
will help a lot. preferably a miner.

~~~
chrisrickard
a mine and a farm? we also have one supermarket

