
18-year-old asks man for advice on her startup, he texts back sleazy messages - danielrmay
http://mashable.com/2017/08/15/lydia-jones-tech-harassment/#9rlIsv.NckqX
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alexandercrohde
Seems like a tough problem (if you consider it a problem). The unfortunate
reality of a power-imbalance is that those who are giving out their expertise
expect something in return (ROI, promotion, attention/validation, sex).

I don't think what this guy did was even slightly morally wrong, but I would
say it sounds unprofessional trying to milk your social status and social
capital for physical affection.

But then again, so is hopping to the press because you found 1 sleazy man out
there and trying to milk the cultural moment for a few views. (not that one
cancels the other)

~~~
foldr
Exploiting a power imbalance to get sex is in fact morally wrong.

~~~
Boothroid
Is exploiting a sex imbalance to get power morally wrong? Yet women do this
all the time, and there are no laws against it, in fact in some ways our
culture celebrates it.

I think you have to be very very careful when you start labelling things as
moral or otherwise.

~~~
foldr
>Is exploiting a sex imbalance to get power morally wrong?

Not to nearly the same extent, no. If someone has power over you and you
refuse them sex, they could potentially do you all kinds of harm. If someone
is very sexually attractive but has no power over you, then the worst that
they can do is leave you a bit sexually frustrated.

In other words, being offered sex with strings by an attractive person is
hardly as bad as being threatened by a powerful person.

>I think you have to be very very careful when you start labelling things as
moral or otherwise.

Behavior that is clearly wrong is clearly wrong. The danger lies in not
calling it out and allowing it to become normalized.

~~~
Boothroid
Ah but come now, sexual attractiveness is a form of power! And in fact one of
the greatest; men will fight and die for sex with women they desire.

On the question of morality I stick to my guns: I think we are all tempted
from time to time to ascend to our high horse and start declaiming of our
righteousness, but my question to you would be: are you really so pure of
morals that there are none that might find fault with you, given the chance?

I'm also struck by the stridency of some of the statements I'm reading on HN.
I wonder if this is a cultural thing as to my British ears they sound almost
comically absolutist. Perhaps in Europe this kind of forceful speech is less
fashionable?

~~~
foldr
>Ah but come now, sexual attractiveness is a form of power!

Sure, in a sense. But as I said previously, your sexual attractiveness to a
person is not something that you can use to threaten them or ruin their life.
On the one hand, you have situations where an attractive woman tries to get
what she wants by offering sex. On the other, you have situations where a
powerful man threatens a woman who refuses his sexual advances. You only have
to think of it from a first-person perspective. Would you rather be coerced
into sex, or offered sex in return for a favor?

>to my British ears they sound almost comically absolutist.

I am also British.

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Boothroid
In a sense?! Sexual power can be used to bring someone to their knees; to
control, to humiliate; I think you do women a disservice if you diminish this
fact, and what's more - and in the spirit of bombast - you are arguing against
one of the timeless truths of human existence, and a theme that pervades human
culture since time immemorial.

~~~
foldr
You can't control or humiliate someone merely by offering them sex. They can
just say "no thanks". If they end up getting controlled and humiliated, it's
because they were foolish enough not to do that.

If you are someone's boss, you can control and humiliate them by, say, having
them fired. You can't say "no thanks" if your boss fires you.

That is the distinction that I was drawing.

~~~
Boothroid
You certainly can control someone by offering them sex - it's a well
understood and successful tool used in espionage.

~~~
drunkenmonkey
Espionage is a human science and has developed applied human sciences above
and beyond what popular American culture has the maturity and insight to
comprehend.

Much of this information, if released publicly, would be dismissed out-of-hand
as incorrect to anyone who is an upright and decent person.

To the poster below me, the offer of sex can be used as control regardless of
acceptance. If a wealthy and attractive person offers you sex, and you are
unaware of an ulterior motive, the mere act of offering does factually impact
your psychology and changes your cognitive biases. If the changing in these
biases is directed, you are being controlled.

I recommend brushing up on your espionage knowledge. This isn't magic, it's
intellectual honesty.

~~~
foldr
You have veered quite a long way off the original topic. It's plainly absurd
to draw a comparison between the KGB setting a honey trap and a senior man
pressuring a junior woman to have sex with him. The two have nothing to do
with one another.

>the mere act of offering does factually impact your psychology and changes
your cognitive biases.

Everything impacts your psychology and changes your cognitive biases. In that
broad sense of the word "control", we are all "controlling" each other every
day, no sex required.

~~~
Boothroid
It's not a comparison, it's a juxtaposition and you are tying yourself in
knots trying to avoid admitting the truth. Women DO have greater sexual power
than men. Some women DO use sex to control men. Young women definitely have an
idea of their power in the sexual marketplace. And the idea that we can just
decide to switch lust on and off is ridiculous.

~~~
foldr
>Some women DO use sex to control men.

I did not say that there are no women who use sex to control men. I said that
it is not possible to control someone merely by offering them sex. It requires
the cooperation of the person who is being offered sex. This is in stark
contrast to the kind of power older men often have over younger women.

>And the idea that we can just decide to switch lust on and off is ridiculous.

Who said anything about switching lust off? All you have to do is decline the
offer, which is eminently possible.

~~~
drunkenmonkey
What about the blackmail potential inherent in offering someone sex?

Edit: I can no longer reply due to the thread length, so here is reply to
below post:

To say that someone offered you sex, is to inculcate the idea of a sexual
relationship with a person which you would otherwise not be associated with in
such a context.

~~~
foldr
There isn't any blackmail potential in offering someone sex. You can just say
"yes, so and so offered me sex".

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alistproducer2
Here's the thing: for men being decent requires effort - especially online
where the risk/reward ration of being a douchebag seems so tantalizingly < 1\.
That's obviously changing because doing stuff like this outside the confines
of dating sites is becoming much riskier. IMO that's a good thing.

I think men will always have to fight the urge to not "go for it" with women
they find attractive. In a way, we're kinda hard-wired to do that. That
doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't fight the urge and be decent to women
- especially now that women everywhere are speaking up and letting us know how
this kind of behavior makes them feel.

Addendum:

The first reactions to my post are pretty negative. I can see why (over-
generalization) but on-balance I don't feel like my post is negative. The core
message is - be decent. If the volume of women's complaints are a measure, I'd
venture to say there are a lot of men out there that struggle to do so. If
you're not one of those guys- awesome . But a lot of dudes are and the first
step to getting them to treat women well is to vocalize the expectation that
they do so and maybe while we're at it, not trying to shame them into decency
by pointing out how awesome _you_ are and, by contrast, what horrible human
beings they are for having unacceptable feelings.

~~~
Analemma_
> Here's the thing: for men being decent requires effort

> I think men will always have to fight the urge to not "go for it" with women
> they find attractive.

For you, maybe. Not for me, and not for a lot of men. Please don't typical-
mind-fallacy the rest of us who _don 't_ need to expend effort to not be a
douchebag.

~~~
cloakandswagger
Serious post: It's possible you have low testosterone levels. Annual
testosterone checks are an important medical precaution for men, as decreased
levels can be caused by serious medical conditions.

~~~
mikestew
If I'm not a raging douchebag, I might be low on testosterone? I'm sure that's
not what you meant, but that's how I'm reading in light of the original
comment. Serious question to a serious post: do you have anything more
concrete on which to base one's decision to get checked?

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Cozumel
Business relationships take place within a business context, email, meetings
etc where both parties are pretty clear on intent.

She messaged him on Facebook, that's not a professional environment, it's
social. He took it as such, his messages weren't inappropriate. Labelling it
as 'sexism' is a little much, it's normal human interaction.

~~~
dfryer
She messaged him on Facebook after finding him through a Facebook group
dedicated to entrepreneurship. If we grant that facebook is a more casual
environment, for the sake of argument, his line of questioning should have
ended at "are you single"! I don't see how her intent could have been more
clear.

~~~
ben_jones
Furthermore the Facebook platform (lets include Instagram, Whatsapp, etc) has
become an "everything" platform for many individuals both young and old.
Family, news, everything is on there. In the absence of clear intent the
expected behavior should be not to make such drastic assumptions as sexual
interest...

