
All three major Russian carriers dump iPhone - yread
http://www.rethink-wireless.com/2013/07/16/all-russian-leaders-dump-iphone.htm
======
vardump

      This is a country which Apple has never found easy - notably, 
      Russia bans handset subsidies, making the iPhone an expensive 
      option for most customers.
    

The effect is exactly the opposite; those countries where phones are mainly
subsidized have also the highest total cost of ownership and ARPU (average
revenue per user). The subsidized phones aren't cheap, quite the opposite.

Carrier subsidized model should be ended to bring down consumer
telecommunication costs. It only benefits the carriers.

~~~
farmdawgnation
> Carrier subsidized model should be ended to bring down consumer
> telecommunication costs. It only benefits the carriers.

In the US at least, everyone has to get on LTE before that becomes a reality.
Sprint and Verizon 3G and older handsets can't speak the same language, I
don't think. AT&T and T-Mobile both use GSM based systems so phone calls are
possible using a handset form the other carrier, but their 3G frequencies are
different - so you're hosed on mobile data. So, there's a de-facto lock into a
carrier with your device even if there isn't one in the contract. (And $600
for a new device just for a different carrier is a hard sell, in a world where
subsidies are gone.)

It's happening though. The problem is that companies like HTC charge the same
price Apple does for the iPhone for what is a lower quality of product, in my
experience. Once again, personal experience, but the number of hardware
problems I've had within the walled garden of Apple are few compared to those
in my Android days. And those that I've had have been fixed quickly by an
Apple store representative, whereas with HTC or Verizon it was a multiple week
ordeal.

That's something that makes the product itself even more valuable to me.

~~~
bretthoerner
I've always wondered: can a single phone have radios for all the different
carriers? Could they share a single antenna? Could one be activated by the
user selecting which network to get on?

~~~
kalleboo
> can a single phone have radios for all the different carriers?

All carriers in a single country? Yes, many do. All carriers worldwide? You'd
be putting a lot of radios in the thing.

> Could they share a single antenna?

Not a radio expert, but I think each antenna has to be tailored to each
wavelength. Maybe you can get away with one per band (one for 800-900, one for
1800-1900, one for 2100-2600)

> Could one be activated by the user selecting which network to get on?

You'd need a SIM card for each carrier you want and swap them out, and for
American CDMA carriers you'd have to have your ESN registered with their
networks beforehand.

~~~
vidarh
All carriers worldwide would be tough, but a sufficiently multi-band GSM phone
will typically give you pretty much worldwide roaming from a variety of
carriers.

I'm in Europe. The last time I had a phone I couldn't effortlessly take to the
US or Asia and use roaming was probably about '99.

~~~
kalleboo
Yeah, most modern phones will work most everywhere, but there'll always be one
carrier's 3G or 4G network you'll miss out out. Some phones have really
impressive radios in them now. Here's the Sony Xperia Z Ultra:

2G Network: GSM 850 / 900 / 1800 / 1900

3G Network: HSDPA 850 / 900 / 1700 / 1900 / 2100

4G Network (C6833 model): LTE 800 / 850 / 900 / 1700 / 1800 / 1900 / 2100 /
2600

4G Network (C6806 model): LTE 700 / 850 / 900 / 1700 / 1900 / 2100 / 2600

With one of these babies, pretty much all you're missing out on is extended
range areas on Docomo Japan (800 MHz)

------
ak0s
Not a single Russian iPhone user I know bought it in carrier store. Mostly
they've got it from Europe trips, others in non-official stores where prices
15-20% lower.

So, despite official sales numbers are low, there is a remarkable iPhone user
base here.

------
guard-of-terra
People around me link this to official Apple Store opening.

You can now order iPhone there over the internet, carriers can't realistically
compete with this because they'll lose money selling for less that Apple Store
and sell zero phones selling for more.

(I've never owned nor bought anything from Apple)

~~~
fvrghl
The carriers sell the phones for less and make money back through the service
plan. That's the basic model for carriers offering phone subsidies.

~~~
muyuu
Not sure about Russia, but in other countries there are tight regulations for
phone subsidies (treating them for what they are: dumping of retail price with
the purpose of locking in users - a blatantly anticompetitive practice that
would be illegal in most industries).

Strong competition has a similar effect. If the SIM free contracts are good
enough, people are not going to get into lengthy, expensive contracts. This
doesn't happen in places like the US because there's a very strong
cartel/oligopoly there that affords them the right to simply deny you a
terminal if it's not under the carrier's conditions.

If Apple is selling for cheaper than the carriers can afford to sell, then
they will simply do what they are doing: stop selling it.

~~~
Dylan16807
How is selling you something on credit 'anticompetitive'?

~~~
abrahamsen
Danish (and I believe EU) regulation has a comprise. Subsidized phones are
legal, but 1) the longest time you can be bound by a "plan" is 6 month, and 2)
all advertising must include the total cost of ownership in the binding
period.

This makes it blatantly obvious to the consumer that the unsubsidized phones
are cheaper.

------
abbot2
Ex-russian here.

This might be counter-intuitive to many people who never lived in Russia, but:
mobile phone service contracts in Russia almost do not exist, entire market
model for carriers is quite different.

Carriers don't sell SIM-locked phones for over decade now in Russia. Most
common contract features are implemented as pay-as-you-go with extra packs
(quite similar to what giffgaff does in the UK). This is probably due to the
fact that CRA and other similar financial institutions in Russia are currently
in their earliest stages of development.

Mobile phones are usually purchased absolutely independently from the mobile
service contract, and almost never purchased from carriers: electronics stores
usually offer better prices, and all Russian carriers are happy to sell SIM-
only prepaid contracts (also see PAYG model notice above).

So overall you should read this news as: "major russian mobile companies
decided that long-term contract model required to sell 'cheap' iPhones in
russia is still too risky and not feasible", no conspiracies.

~~~
markdown
This is not Russia specific... it's like that in most countries of the world.

------
gtrubetskoy
"Apple dumps all three major Russian carriers" is how I would read this
heading. Everyone I know in Russia has or wants an iPhone, Apple isn't losing
any market share there, because you can get an iPhone from Apple directly.

~~~
gdy
Yep, we have our share of Apple funboys here in Russia)

------
isalmon
>> Russia has over 180m mobile subscribers

The whole population is 143M (2011) including infants and very old people. How
is it possible? Multiple phones per person?

~~~
tucaz
Brazil has around 190 million people[1] with about 249 million mobile phone
lines enabled [2].

People that have more than one line usually buy one line from each provider so
they can talk "for free" between the same providers. It is not uncommon for
people to ask you what is your provider so they will mark it and call from a
phone that uses that provider when trying to reach you.

We also have a high number of people with phones that allow multiple providers
with one device.

Business and personal cellphones are not uncommon either.

[1]
[http://www.ibge.gov.br/home/estatistica/populacao/censo2010/...](http://www.ibge.gov.br/home/estatistica/populacao/censo2010/default.shtm)
[2] [http://extra.globo.com/noticias/celular-e-
tecnologia/quinto-...](http://extra.globo.com/noticias/celular-e-
tecnologia/quinto-pais-no-numero-de-celulares-brasil-pode-subir-ainda-mais-no-
ranking-com-desoneracao-de-smartphones-8123620.html)

~~~
speeder
To make a example as brazillian:

My close family is 4 people (my dad, mom, me, sister).

We have 6 lines from one carrier (we got it in a special package, we use 1
line per person + 2 backup lines for whatever we need, since those lines can
call very cheap each other, one use for backup line for example is borrow it
to extended family)

Also my dad has one workplace line with another carrier, and a Nextel Android.

And I had for a while a extra line to communicate cheaply with people of the
same carrier, thus in total we have 9 mobile phone lines for 4 people.

Sometimes you see particularly important business people (like a CEO) here
walking with 4 or 5 phones on his belt (one of each carrier + 1 for strictly
personal stuff)

~~~
enko
A CEO is carrying 5 phones on his belt so he can save a few pennies using
same-carrier free calling? What, does he have those 5 numbers also printed on
his business card?

~~~
ars
In most countries the caller pays, not the callee. So he is saving his callers
money, not himself.

------
neonhomer
FTA "which has helped enable the Microsoft OS to overtake iOS, gaining 8.3% of
smartphone sales compared to 8.2% for Apple"

So maybe windows phone will actually become a competitor to android in russia?

~~~
mcintyre1994
Unless they have a very loose definition of smartphone or I'm missing
something, it doesn't sound like anything is competitive with Android in
Russia?

------
gcb0
Any one care to tell us how good/bad is a market that outlaws phone subsidies?

Is there better competition on service quality and cost or does it end up
being just the same?

~~~
mynegation
In three words: it is great! Not sure what lack of phone subsidies has to do
with it though, or even if there is such a thing.

I lived in Russia and now live in Canada, and I would take Russian mobile
market over Canadian any day. Dirt cheap, fierce competition between
operators, over-abundant coverage, hidden fees are much less prevalent, there
are contracts but pretty much everyone is on prepaid, buying new SIM card is a
breeze.

I do not know if subsidized phones are forbidden, but much more likely the
tradition of buying own phones is historical. Back in 90s owning a phone was a
status symbol, there were no credit bureaus, no credit histories, inflation
was rampant and ruble FX rate was very volatile. Everyone trusted only cold
hard cash (preferably USD).

Later the country was swamped with lots and lots of cheap phones. So-called
"grey" phones (euphemism for "smuggled") were brought in circumvention already
lax or non-existent import regulations.

So I guess it is just not in the Russian tradition to sell subsidized phones.

~~~
tebuevd
I completely disagree. Passport information is collected upon purchasing a
SIM-card diminishing all hopes of privacy. Furthermore, there is roaming
between states/provinces in Russia, so a SIM bought in one state is extremely
expensive to use in another. I know for a fact that this isn't the case in the
US and Canada. But, yes, generally prices are lower in Russia.

~~~
ash
> Passport information is collected upon purchasing a SIM-card

Not always. You can purchase anonymous SIM too. I did it two years ago on a
train station. Price for calls is a little higher this way though.

------
surge
I wonder how much of it's related to fears that every iPhone is a secret NSA
listening device?

I mean if you knew the KGB could possibly listen in on your phones, how likely
would US carriers keep it?

I've been thinking an overseas consumer and business/government backlash
against US technology products is inevitable now that the NSA being in bed
with every major US technology company is public knowledge.

~~~
stephengillie
What phone isn't? Is even cyanogenmod safe from the NSA?

~~~
mtgx
I think so, since it's fully community made, and beyond the "official"
CyanogenMod team, there are hundreds more developers making "unofficial" CM
ROMs for other phones, and they get to see the code, too.

Plus, the CyanogenMod team is now working on encrypted end-to-end messaging
that is built-in:

[https://plus.google.com/+CyanogenMod/posts/23vfN2qdZTu](https://plus.google.com/+CyanogenMod/posts/23vfN2qdZTu)

~~~
superuser2
No, it's not, because everything useful that happens with your phone happens
over a carrier network or the internet, both of which are available to the
NSA.

End-to-end encrypted messaging is a good sign, but it doesn't matter how
"community made" your endpoints are - the NSA has the network.

~~~
mtgx
Yes, but if the communication is encrypted it doesn't really matter. So these
text messages should be by and large _safe_.

I agree about the voice calling, though, which is why I'd like them to use
RedPhone as the default dial app, too, so at least you can have encrypted
voice conversations when connected to the Internet.

------
dotcoma
So, none of the operators were angry about possible (likely) NSA leaks?

~~~
ak0s
Why would they bother? There is a local version of PRISM named <a
href="[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM">SORM</a>](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM">SORM</a>)
deployed at every provider.

------
xentronium
[http://shop.beeline.ru/msk/iphones](http://shop.beeline.ru/msk/iphones) this
is weird. Maybe they haven't updated their site though.

------
andreiursan
"draconian contracts" for me this means unlimeted Data Plans, some carriers
only offer that for iPhone - at least this is valid for Romania (last time I
checked).

------
roc
If the iPhone is considered "expensive" due "high import taxes" at $920, how
is it selling on the black market for $3500?

~~~
keltex

      On the black market, iPhone 5s have even been reported reaching over $3.500
    

Maybe a typo but this is an unreleased product.

~~~
nathana
That's "iPhone 5s", the plural of "iPhone 5". "iPhone 5S" is the unreleased
product.

~~~
lostlogin
That's a written language problem Apple didn't see coming. It not as bad as
the situation you get when you try to discuss the new New iPad though. The Le
Ferrari has managed a similar achievement too.

------
eeky
Russia leading the way once again.

