
When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves - sverige
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/10/30/662127406/when-adolescents-give-up-pot-their-cognition-quickly-improves
======
framebit
A therapist friend recently attended a conference where a big group of doctors
and health professionals focused around adolescents presented on the link
between pot and the development of psychosis and even schizophrenia in users
under age 32 or something like that.

I've definitely heard about this colloquially with people reacting very
differently to the same strain ("we were all fine but she was just freaking
out"), and the new science coming out of places like Colorado seems to be
showing a strong correlation in that direction. I guess you could say
(colloquially again, since I'm not at all in the medical field) that pot can
open a bad door in some people that may have stayed shut otherwise. Is that
gene expression? Brain plasticity? Dunno.

I think prohibition does way more harm than good and I'm glad to see
legalization coming to the states, but I don't think we can treat pot as
totally harmless for people under 30 and teens in particular because it seems
like it's very harmful for some.

One paper on the subject:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2931552/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2931552/)

~~~
LrnByTeach
All high school weed smokers are not equal. There are many occasional smokers.

For the sake of simplicity, let me put a number here.

High schooler between 9th to 12 grade who smoke weed at least 10 times a week
all four years will settle in LIFE below 50% of his potential (compared to how
he would have done without weed)

~~~
memebox3v
I knew a guy at university who smoked everyday. And before he took exams or
tests, he would do a bong hit to settle his nerves.

He got a 1st in Chemistry.

#anecdatasmackdown

~~~
flattone
+1 definitely know a few people who somehow (total mystery to me) their brains
are on fire when using. Similarly have opposite examples... It just seems to
work differently for differently people.

~~~
spiritcat
used to be this way, then i got old.

------
Waterluvian
Maybe this is too reductionist but I once heard someone describe it as,
"there's nothing fundamentally dangerous about pot, but one of its (often
intended) effects is that is slows our engines down. And some of us need to be
firing on all cylinders."

School was a tricky time for me. I'm thriving intellectually now, but I was a
C- student pretty much 4th-12th grade. I _needed_ those cycles that pot would
have robbed me of.

~~~
Balero
South Park put it quite well: "Well, Stan, the truth is marijuana probably
isn't gonna make you kill people, and it most likely isn't gonna fund
terrorism, but… well, son, pot makes you feel fine with being bored. And it's
when you're bored that you should be learning some new skill or discovering
some new science or being creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find
out that you aren't good at anything."

~~~
ngngngng
These are the kind of honest explanations for drugs that we need more of. Most
people that do heroin don't become prostitutes to fund the habit. But once
you've done it, no matter what happens in your life, it's not as good as that
time you did heroin in your friends basement. And that's really sad.

edit: I'm being rightfully called out. I haven't done heroin and didn't mean
to authoritatively say that there is only one realistic outcome. I only meant
that painting the picture of drugs completely ruining your entire life isn't
accurate, we all know very successful people that regularly do drugs.

~~~
kaybe
That makes it sound as if we should let people that only have a few days to
live take all the heroin they want, actually. Maybe we should.

~~~
magicnubs
To a lesser extent, that's part of what hospice / palliative care is. Not to
the extent that it's purely recreational, but often involve continued use of
opiods for pain management.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palliative_care#Physical_pain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palliative_care#Physical_pain)

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Sadly there's still some prohibition on giving the patient enough to
comfortably OD and voluntarily end their suffering in a lot of places. I've
heard nurses say that they're instructed to try and keep the patient
optimistic, even when all that life means to them anymore is continued
suffering. Gotta squeeze every last dollar out of them or something I suppose.

~~~
lisper
There is a less cynical explanation: if you make it too easy for people to
kill themselves then you run the risk of old people being coerced into taking
that option by, for example, greedy relatives eyeing their inheritance.

~~~
magicnubs
And it could be seen as a perverse incentive for governments to make it too
easy for people who are an economic and budgetary burden to end their own
lives.

------
nabla9
Pediatric neurology and neurology are different specialties in medicine
because developing brains are very different from adult brains.

I'm all for legalizing pot and it's just natural that young people
_experiment_ with drugs. That does not mean that constant drug use during
adolescence should be perceived as normal or harmless.

~~~
macspoofing
>it's just natural that young people _experiment_ with drugs.

Is it?

~~~
gnulinux
Yes, people are curious. Curiosity is a good thing and experimenting with pot
is hardly dangerous. I smoked weed only two times in my life because I was
very curious (living in the Bay Area, everyone was smoking it) but decided
it's not my thing. I think it's natural.

~~~
jhwang5
If you're curious, you can try swallowing fire while you're at it.

~~~
ArrayList
What an incredibly dumb thing to say.

~~~
macspoofing
Why is that? There is a world of difference between stating that young people
are naturally curious, and stating that drug 'experimentation' (or
'experimenting' with some other dangerous activity) by young people is
natural.

~~~
gnulinux
Drug experimenting is not dangerous at all. If you know how to read, you can
read studies about these drugs. Drugs like weed, alcohol, LSD, tobacco are
extremely well-tested and we know most short-term/long-term effects on adult
humans. If you decided to experiment with something known to be toxic to
humans (like cigarettes), then that's on you. If you read studies claiming pot
to be safe, and you're not convinced, then don't smoke it.

~~~
macspoofing
>Drug experimenting is not dangerous at all.

No problems with 13 year-olds trying heroin?

>If you read studies claiming pot to be safe, and you're not convinced, then
don't smoke it.

Pot isn't safe for kids, and there are multitudes of studies that show this.
Will it hurt if a kid does something dumb once or twice? No. But habitual use
is disastrous, from a brain developmental standpoint, mental health, and the
sheer amount of time lost by being 'drunk' and not focusing on things like
school. Pot is also addictive, not in the same way that heroin is, but it is
addictive.

Keep in mind, the original statement was around what is natural and what is
isn't. I'm not conceding that it is natural for kids to smoke pot or do other
drugs.

~~~
gnulinux
I never said "it's natural for kids to smoke pot" or never suggesting
something even remotely close to a 13 year old trying heroin OR even an adult
trying heroin. Sorry but I'm done with this conversation since you have bunch
of strawmen you really want to fight.

~~~
noobly
>I'm done with this conversation since you have bunch of strawmen you really
want to fight. Just wanted to chime to compliment this gracious exit, it's
easy to waste time online arguing with these types.

------
justaaron
I had the exact opposite experience. I only began to grok a lot of the STEM
stuff once I took up regular weed smoking, around the age of 16-18. I did note
an initial period in which it was disorienting and novel to be "high", but
this subsided. It helps me focus, It helps me cognate by reducing the noise
and allowing me to be interested in whatever I put in front of my face. There
is a euphoric effect upon taking a puff off the pipe that never goes away (not
in over 30 years so far...) This euphoria is associated with learning, focus,
getting work done, and a generally positive work cycle of reward. I do not own
a television. I have many hobbies, and managed to live from performing
original music in over 50 countries for approximately a decade. I study API's
and tutorials after dev work before sleeping... I've never been able to be a
couch potato, although online social activity (what is this? expression? I'm
not sure...useless for sure...) certainly robs a lot of my time and I wish I
would have the self-discipline to get away more, so that's all for now lol :D

~~~
willio58
I've found cannabis helps me be more creative in general. It allows me to take
a step back and look at the bigger picture, which is great in some
circumstances but bad in others. For example if I want to come up with a
design for a website, I usually find that smoking helps me experiment a bit
more, focus less on the fine details. But once I'm implementing a design in
code? Thats sober time for me.

------
jrowley
Beyond the direct cognitive effects, the increased probability of
schizophrenia in people with predispositions to schizophrenia (if you have
relatives who are schizophrenic) is staggering. (related:
[http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/reports/2017/health-
effects...](http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/reports/2017/health-effects-of-
cannabis-and-cannabinoids.aspx_)

Additionally, the smoke particulates themselves are really not good for your
lungs, and are probably shortening peoples lives.

I believe marijuana has a place in society without a doubt, but people need to
approach it with caution and try to avoid using it recreationally too
frequently. Like most substances (e.g. sugar), it can become psychologically
addictive. Related:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/06/opinion/sunday/marijuana-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/06/opinion/sunday/marijuana-
addiction.html)

Personally, I'm a big fan, actually too big of a fan and trying to cut back on
my habit right now.

------
S0ckpupp3t
A drug more benign than alcohol. Smoke too much, take a nap. Smoke too often,
cut down and get sharp again. Drink too much, you get flu symptoms. Drink too
much too often, you get a new liver, or die.

~~~
narzu
The fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal doesn't mean we should legalise
all drugs that are somewhat healthier than alcohol and tobacco. I think we can
do much better.

~~~
jerf
We _have_ done much better. Look at tobacco usage. It hasn't plummeted because
it was outlawed.

I don't think we'd necessarily get the same plummet with marijuana, because
the health story isn't quite as uniformly bad, and I get the sense that pot
users don't get as acclimated as cigarette users, who seem to be smoking not
to feel good but to avoid withdrawal. (Just on the drug's own terms, tobacco
is a really bad deal; the ratio of "high" to harm is just atrocious. If it
wasn't so addictive nobody would use it on a regular basis.) But we could
probably get some improvement if the messaging got more realistic. And by
"improvement" I don't just mean "less", but better; less adolescents smoking
some of their most important cognitive years away, more people using THC for
correct medicinal uses, and if one chooses to smoke it recreationally, better
informed choices.

I'm in favor of legalization, because marijuana prohibition is not as bad as
alcohol prohibition was, but it's the same sort of thing even if less of it. I
still plan on telling my children quite strongly the best move is not to play.

~~~
beaconstudios
as an ex-smoker who sometimes relapses for short periods, for me it's not to
avoid withdrawal. It relieves stress and anxiety, and also gives me an excuse
to step out of the office for a few minutes for a break or to collect my
thoughts.

~~~
chosenbreed
> It relieves stress and anxiety, and also gives me an excuse to step out of
> the office for a few minutes for a break or to collect my thoughts.

Should we really need excuses to step out of the office to get some fresh air,
collect our thoughts, etc for a few minutes?

I think there is much to be said about cigarettes relieving stress and
anxiety...

~~~
krrrh
There does seem to be suspicion around leaving your desk to do “nothing”.

I once worked at a place where a lot of my colleagues would take smoke breaks
and thought it was unfair. I loudly started taking gum breaks where I would go
outside and smack peppermint gum for 5-10 minutes before throwing it in the
trash and going back inside. Sometimes I would head out at the same time as
the smokers so that I got to participate in the chitchat (which was
unreasonably valuable from a professional perspective), and I would complain
about how it wasn’t socially acceptable to chew gum at your desk like in the
eighties when everyone did it. It was softly mocking, but no one objected.

------
thedoops
Like alcohol, if weed is taken close to bedtime it will interfere with the
sleep cycle. I wonder how much of the cognitive impact is sleep related?

~~~
b1r6
I'd love to see more research on this. I may occasionally consume, but one
obvious effect is that I remember far less dreams if under the effect prior to
sleeping that night. For me this is appreciated because dreaming is a source
of mental annoyance the next day.

I have heard that it may reduce REM sleep. Consequently, many people who
consume regularly then take a break will agree that after stopping they are
flooded with more dreams than normal. They may be more intense, realistic,
etc. But the effect subsides to normal quickly. Withdrawal is minor to non-
existent for such people. Interesting!!

------
edoo
Cannabis slows down certain abstract thinking abilities and you basically
think differently for a while. This can be an amazing insightful juxtaposition
to normality. I suspect it is the effect on the short term memory centers that
make it more difficult to hold complex ideas in your head long enough to find
results. I personally do not enjoy critical thinking when partaking. I can
feel the deficiency. It does seem to open my creative side, and for me goes
best at the end of a long day like a glass of wine or video game.

------
toyg
Substance used to numb oneself turns out to actually numb oneself. News at 11.

Looking forward to grounbreaking research on "when adolescents give up
smoking, their lung capacity quickly improves" and "when adolescents give up
alcohol, their liver performance quickly improves".

------
rasengan
The conclusion comes without further study. As an example, Professor Xia Zhang
from the University of Saskatchewan discovered, which was further repeatedly
verified, that marijuana causes neurogenesis [1].

This is interesting because other non marijuana related studies show that
neurogenesis ends after puberty [2].

So, then, could the conclusion not be that the sudden growth of brain cells
causes a sudden mismapping of information and memory within the brain causing
slight issues with memory recall and retention until the brain is able to cope
with and understand the neurogenesis?

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1253627/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1253627/)
[2] [https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2018/03/07/5913056...](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2018/03/07/591305604/sorry-adults-no-new-neurons-for-your-aging-brains)

------
40acres
I smoke a lot of weed (it's been legal in Oregon since 2014) and support
Nationwide legalization, but I am fully aware of the risks and think we need
to be absolutely clear and honest about them.

My brother began smoking weed in high school, he smoked so much I'd call it an
addiction, eventually he developed what the doctors called substance induced
psychosis, he saw and heard things no one else saw. He became really paranoid,
it was scary to watch and I promised to myself I would never smoke weed.

He's fully recovered and as mentioned before I broke my promise to myself, we
should do everything we can to keep weed out of kids hands until they are of
legal age to buy it.

I'd also like to see the federal government allow for the FDA to research
marijuana and it's byproducts, the fact that states are legalizing it without
robust research from the FDA is backwards.

------
parf02
I took pot when I was 22 and it had disastrous effects on my life for over a
year after. Had to seek psychiatric help because of it. Had intense
depersonalization and panic effects triggered from the one bad pot experience.
It's unfortunate that pot is perceived as being so benign. The psychiatrist
told me that cases like me are actually not that rare unfortunately.

~~~
lwansbrough
This happens to a lot of people (my self included) and I’m willing to bet it
is at least partially triggered by the paranoia around doing drugs. You were
expecting something bad to happen, or were nervous about something bad
happening, so it did.

I had a similar experience. Eventually learned to control my anxiety and now
am I able to come down from the onset of a panic attack before it happens.
Weed is no longer an issue for me now that I’m not afraid.

Anxiety is a much different issue than psychosis. The psychosis issue is very
real but only affects a very small number of people who are predisposed, and
even then likely only when they’re young and unlucky.

~~~
parf02
in my case, I had nooooo idea that pot could cause something bad to happen so
I had no expectations. In fact, I thought it would help me relax.

------
brainzap
Is it not related to sleep?

~~~
ropans808
It is definitely related to sleep. Cannabis disrupts NREM sleep, where
memories are ushered from short term memory into your hippocampus. Matthew
Walker's excellent book "Why We Sleep" goes into this in some detail, highly
recommended.

Edit: I should add, many substances disrupt NREM sleep in addition to
cannabis, such as alcohol, caffeine, and sleep aids.

------
fatlasp
I'm in my 30s and when I gave up pot my cognition quickly improved...

------
wes-k
As a society we need to understand the effects of drugs and inform our
citizens. Right now marijuana is a schedule 1 drug, right up there with
heroin. This, to me, makes me ignore and distrust these classifications. This
is not how we educate our populace on the harms of drugs!

We can't expect our youth to make a well informed decision when they are told:

1\. Marijuana is a schedule 1 drug

2\. Marijuana isn't as harmful as alcohol

3\. People < 26 years old, who's brains are still developing, should limit
their marijuana use.

------
peter303
A Colorado study of 5 year trends in pot use found 19% of high school students
have used it in the oast month. It is almost same percentage reported in a
national survey. The Colorado number was based 47K respondents.

[http://cdpsdocs.state.co.us/ors/docs/reports/2018-SB-13-283_...](http://cdpsdocs.state.co.us/ors/docs/reports/2018-SB-13-283_report.pdf)

P.S. Pot use under age 21 is not legal in Colorado.

------
moviuro
GDPR-compliant link:
[https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=662127406](https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=662127406)

------
newnewpdro
Marijuana interferes with forming new memories, it's a pretty well known
effect. Just try having a conversation with someone stoned, you're lucky if
they can remember what the subject is one sentence later.

Obviously this effect isn't going to complement one's academic life,
especially in the early stages where it's mostly rote memorization and
testing.

------
nashashmi
Nothing news here. We all know kids recover quickly. Their minds are still
developing and they can shake off whatever bad effects they have accumulated.

Title might as well be:

When Adolescents Give Up Pizza, their health quickly improves.

When Adolescents Give Up bad habits, their behavior quickly improves.

When Adolescents Give Up Facebook, their social circle quickly improves.

~~~
Analog24
What are you talking about? That's a ridiculous overgeneralization. There are
plenty of things that kids do _NOT_ recover from and we now know that moderate
marijuana use is _NOT_ one of them.

edit: emphasized the double negative to prevent further confusion. It could
have been phrased better.

~~~
ashelmire
This article is quite literally about how adolescents quickly recover from
regular marijuana use.

~~~
Analog24
...I'm well aware of that. The original comment stated that kids recover from
_everything_ and this study was a tautology. I'm saying that this is not true.

edit: it's clear my comment was confusing b/c there's a double negative.
Reread it with emphasis on the _NOT_ 's.

------
mysticlabs
Meh what this study doesn't take into consideration is dependent memory states
or differential memory states. If you learn something while high, then you
often need to get high again to be able to remember it. This happens with
everything from antidepressants to alcohol. Why this is always overlooked for
cannabis I don't know.

For example, if someone where to study high, then get high before taking their
test they might perform equally to the sober group or possibly even have
improved performance. I know there have been many times when cannabis actually
improved my cognition like this in certain circumstances.

Anyone who uses cannabis regularly will experience this, so of course if you
stop using it completely the testing metrics they use to measure cognition
will improve as the sober group becomes more sober their ability to remember
what they've learned while sober will improve since they're no longer
oscillating between different memory states. What would be really interesting
is to take a control group who continues to use cannabis and see how they
compare to the kids who you make stop using it. If their cognition remains
stable and on par with the sober group with continued use then does this study
really mean what they think it means?

This study is also limited to THC, which means they're only studying 1
cannabinoid and not the whole plant and how it works with CBD and other
cannabinoids. From experience I can tell you that CBD counters many of the
negative side effects of THC, as it functions as a neuro-protectant and anti-
inflammatory. Had they tested against a variety of cannabinoids and measured
which cannabinoids had what effects and then studied the using groups vs. the
sober group and how they performed then you could come to a more conclusive
argument.

------
bitCromwell
Without a distinction between sativa and indica such a study could be
dismissed out of hand.

------
jahitr
I’m one of those people high THC weed changes perception of reality for me. It
opens doors and way of thinking that should be locked or shouldn’t exist. CBD
in the other hand, improve reasoning. It helped me a lot on many human
relations.

------
mruts
I just stopped smoking (it's been maybe 2 weeks) after having used for over 10
years (I'm 25). This study gives me some hope that I haven't fucked up things
forever.

------
danschumann
You guys ever see that experiment where they give a mouse sugar, and it can no
longer find the island in a pool, causing it to drown? Does weed do this as
well?

------
the-dude
I gave up pot and switched to hashish. Big difference for me.

Is hashish commonly available in the US? I get the impression all discussions
are about weed/pot.

~~~
WAthrowaway
It is, but harder to get in non-legal markets (most of the US right now). I
work in the industry and the trend seems to be more towards purer concentrates
like wax and oil - the margins on those are incredible

~~~
the-dude
I did a bit of thinking why I have preferred hashish and it might have to do
with the way the weed is grown : outdoors in large fields in Morocco, Turkey,
Lebanon etc.

In other words : not made from indoor/artificial light/heavy strain. Weed sold
here in NL is incredibly strong. Too strong.

Outdoors / hands off is much smoother.

------
imron
In other news, teens who brush and floss they teeth have fewer cavities, and
teens who exercise regularly have higher levels of fitness.

------
milin
> Marijuana, it seems, is not a performance-enhancing drug.

DUH

------
camdenlock
By the time I got around to seeing this post, it had exactly 420 points.

What a wondrous universe!

... or maybe it was a coordinated effort.

------
49para
maybe it's due to Canada legalizing cannabis, but I feel like I've been seeing
a lot more "pot is bad" messaging lately.

Is this to head off any other countries from thinking about legalization ?

~~~
gnulinux
Pot is a safe drug, safer than alcohol, as insurmountable evidence suggests.
This still doesn't mean it's completely safe, as in you can smoke arbitrary
amounts without any negative effects. A rational person should read all this
evidence and find a good balance between recreation and health. I don't smoke
pot because I don't like it that much and the "slowness" it gives me the day
after isn't worth the pleasure. I do drink a few times a month because
alcohol, even though more dangerous than pot, does give me more pleasure and
the day after is usually not bad enough that I wish I didn't drink the day
before. It's a personal balance.

------
bishalpaudel
The fact is, when cognition improves they give up the pot.

------
dreamdu5t
Breaking news: Teens that sleep, eat healthy, exercise, and abstain from drugs
perform better!

It’s the scientific discovery of the century!

------
geff82
<irony>Who would have thought this!</irony>

While enzyms in the human body are totally able to cope with alcohol and
(which I absolutely do not favor either, for the record), the human body has
to "wash out" the remains of pot in the synapses of the brain (which is why
there is ZERO alcohol in the blood after a few hours but even after months,
smoking pot can sometimes be detected in urine).

I personally have a big problem with really punishing people for smoking pot,
I see no sense in it. Yet I see no sign why there should be more people
smoking it.

Recently a friend came up to me and told me how great cannabis could be for
certain health issues. I just replied: 95% of what you tell me could also be
accomplished by good old ginger, no need for weed.

Also: the regular pot smokers in my class in school are NOT successful people
nowadays (if people smoke once or twice a year, of course, there seem to be no
big issues concerning their success in life).

~~~
empath75
I imagine that a lot of successful people you know right now smoke pot and
don't tell you about it.

~~~
geff82
I know some successful people who smoke occasionally (by occasionally I mean
1-3 times a year). Yet, most seem not to do it at all.

~~~
acct1771
Nobody's ever lied about use of a drug with great stigma.

