
Ask HN: Joining Big Tech in One’s 40s - kemiller
Hi HN — I&#x27;m 43, and at a bit of a crossroads. I sold my share in a company last year and have been taking time off to figure out my next move, and while I&#x27;ve mostly done startups my whole career, I am considering going for a job at a big tech company (FAANG&#x2F;Lyft&#x2F;Stripe&#x2F;etc.). Does anyone have any experience doing this? I can still keep up coding, but should I do that, or try for management? What skills should I brush up on particularly? Mostly, I am a bit fed up with the stress and uncertainty of startups and looking for something more stable, at least for a while.
======
guyzero
I was 37 when I joined Google in a senior IC role in 2008, so nearly my entire
40's. It's still work, there are still issues with coworkers and there's still
stress compared to the startups I used to work at. The company isn't going to
go out of business but you can still get a manager who doesn't communicate
well and gives you bad performance reviews as a result. Google turns over more
employees in a month than the entire headcount of some of my previous
companies. And GOOG is a huge company - if anyone says it's either great or
horrible that's probably true for them, but it doesn't mean much for what your
experience is going to be. I honestly don't think that being young is really
much of an advantage one way or other here - there are successful people in
the 40's here, even ICs, there are a lot of new grads who wash out after a
year or two and go elsewhere. Big companies have much more idiosyncratic tech
stacks so knowing any particular technical skill isn't that huge a deal as we
probably don't use it anyway. Know the basics, know how to write, know how to
manage up.

edit: reading some other comments I think it's easier to be an older IC at big
companies than startups/small companies. But whether you should pursue a
management track is a completely different question.

~~~
jamesrcole
If anyone else isn’t familiar with ‘IC’, it seems it stands for “individual
contributor” (as opposed to a role where you're managing others). Correct me
if I’m wrong.

~~~
sfgweilr4f
[was] IC =worker.

[updated] IC = worker with management tendencies but more technical knowledge.

[kept] Ok then. Helpful. Corporatespeak is often just jargon creation to
exclude others for whatever reason.

[edit expansion] Worker who is not manager but has manager skills sufficient
to orchestrate as needed to deliver a result in required manner. Knowledge
level exceeds expectation normally associated with a classic "pure" manager.

~~~
Thorrez
It's an abbreviation. It's used to save time. I don't want to waste away
typing Hyper Text Transfer Protocol.

~~~
sfgweilr4f
You just did.

~~~
Thorrez
I didn't waste away this time, I'm still here. But next time I might not be so
lucky.

------
braythwayt
Anybody in their 40s or older has valuable experience above and beyond
ephemeral value of “Hitting the ground running with Cabbage and Sprouts
containerized with Cuper9s using ES2020 and JSxyz.”

One way to deliver that experience is in delivery management, that is, being
responsible for teams that ship stuff.

Another way to deliver that experience is in people management. Not all
companies equate this with the previous responsibility.

A third way in in a more nebulous “leadership” role that doesn’t have
“manager” in the title, e.g. “Architect,” or “Principal Engineer.”

The latter is tricky, but can be a very good opportunity. My 2c on being in
engineering leadership is that it’s best to think of yourself as a manger
without authority, rather than thinking of yourself as an engineer with
authority.

\- - -

FWIW, I am 57 and a Principal Engineer with PagerDuty.

~~~
o_____________o
> it’s best to think of yourself as a manger without authority, rather than
> thinking of yourself as an engineer with authority

That's great, and resonates

~~~
vikasg
Andy Grove talks about this in "High Output Management". He says there are two
kinds of managers, "know-how" managers and "position" managers. Both have a
certain amount of authority, and a successful technology company needs both.

If you're a senior enough person who doesn't want to manage people, you should
think of yourself as a "know-how" (knowledge, experience) manager and find a
role that allows for that.

------
daxfohl
Yes, I did exactly this. Stayed a dev, moved to the west coast, got a big pay
bump, job stability, and benefits. There are plenty of 40+ devs here. So much
of the work at big companies is learning their huge custom domain, don't worry
about any particular tech.

Only regret is that I absolutely under leveled myself (msft L64), and after a
couple years getting dragged through a couple of reorgs, I still feel like
promotion is a ways off. Most of my peer group is 10 years younger, and most
ICs of my age group are at least two levels up. So wait for an opportunity at
the level you think you should be. Don't let imposter syndrome talk you out of
it or think you can make it up after you join.

But even still, I'm doing way better now than I was back in Michigan working
for startups, even accounting for cost of living.

Also note the most challenging change for me was getting used to how little
control of anything you have is. I really miss being able to basically decide
my design and implement it against public well-known technologies. Now so much
of it is calling around, trying to figure out how other teams are doing
things, coordinating with them, ensuring backward compatibility with a million
old things, blah blah blah, it's much slower and less interesting. But, still
worth it....I guess. (second-guessing myself now?)

~~~
derwiki
Did you "declare" a target level when you applied?

~~~
daxfohl
You don't, not directly. At least at msft. But you can figure out what level
you think you should be based on your experience, and then work backwards to
determine what base salary to ask for, and the levels are fairly tightly
coupled to that.

And don't let imposter syndrome weaken your resolve on that salary if you're
coming from somewhere with way lower baselines. You don't need to be a super
hero at any level short of "partner" level. You'll just end up with a lower
leveled job than you should.

------
cmsonger
I joined Google at the age of 50. Just send a resume. They are not trying to
surprise you and want you to do your best. Consequently, not only do they tell
you what to expect from the interview process, the recruiter will send you a
PDF that talks through what to expect along with a reading list you can use to
prepare. (For example: cracking the coding interview and CLRS are on it.)

That said, I just went in cold. If you've been coding and are current in one
of the 3 big interview languages (C++/Java/Python), and if you still
understand your undergraduate level algorithms course and the corresponding
vocabulary, then you know what you need to know.

Side note: A thing that no one told me but that I had to figure out on my own
is that your technical writing skills are one of the most important skills to
doing well at google. It was unironically said to me that the highest
reward/effort one can do at Google is to write documents. The person who said
it was correct about that IMO.

~~~
decebalus1
You advice is sound but incomplete.

> if you still understand your undergraduate level algorithms course and the
> corresponding vocabulary, then you know what you need to know

speaking from experience, this would not get you nowhere near the level you
have to be for passing the Google interview (or any other FAANG interview for
that matter). You need to study long and hard in addition to solving OJ
problems and familiarize yourself with different problem patterns. Let me give
you and example of what I got at Google:
[https://leetcode.com/problems/remove-duplicate-
letters/](https://leetcode.com/problems/remove-duplicate-letters/) Solving
this problem optimally with only what you remember from undergrad algo courses
is impossible. You either need to have a knack for these types of challenges
or solve enough of them to identify a solution pattern.

~~~
MaximumYComb
I've just finished the 2nd year of my CS degree. In about 3 minutes I came up
with:

1) create an empty string, call it "S2" 2) loop over each char in original
string 3) if the char isn't in S2, add it to the end of S2. If the char is
already present in S2 then lexicographically compare the prior S2 verse S2
with this char shifted to the end. Keep the lower ordered one.

This took about 3-4 minutes of thinking and is O(n). It might not be optimal,
it might not even be a correct solution as I've spent only a few minutes on
it. However, I feel it's close and it wouldn't take much to flesh out.

EDIT: This solution is incorrect.

~~~
171243
input: "bcabc"

    
    
      1. "b"
      2. "bc"
      3. "bca"
      4. "bca"
      5. "bca"
    

What am I missing?

~~~
kangnkodos
Take all the possible answers with duplicates removed, and return the first
one in alphabetical order.

input: "bcabc"

output: "abc"

------
Diederich
I started at my second 'FAANG' company when I was 48, two years ago, and it's
been great. The previous 'FAANG' company was less great, but still fairly ok.

In between and before those, I have worked at two startups and three other in-
between (in size) organizations, as well as two non-tech giants, over the
course of about 27 years now. Kind of takes my breath away seeing that last
number!

As others here have noted, no matter where you work, one of the most important
things is your manager. I've had good managers and bad managers, and my less
happy time at the previous 'FAANG' was largely due to a bad manager.

Having said that, the department/group you're in is also important. I had a
great manager at one of the large (but not giant) companies but the department
had big problems. It was a relatively comfortable but in the end unproductive
couple of years. (And also why I decided to move on relatively quickly.)

Re: skills to brush up on: honestly, I suggest just start interviewing heavily
and use that as a template to figure out what you need to learn.

The big tech companies have the luxury of having tons of talented, qualified
people trying to work there, and so structure the interviewing process to be
biased toward turning away qualified people rather than accepting unqualified
people.

That means that the interview process can be pretty strenuous.

Re: trying for management: I was a manager briefly, early on in my career, and
decided that I was never going to do that again. I was relatively good at it,
but I didn't like it, so all of my roles have been technical, though of course
a lot of the best things I've accomplished involved large quantities of
'soft', non-technical people work.

Re: fed up with uncertainty. Yup, I totally get that, and it's the main reason
I haven't done more with startups. I value my personal/family time too much,
and always have.

Feel free to contact me directly: diederich@gmail.com

Best of luck.

------
yodsanklai
Same age, I recently interviewed at two FAANG companies.

Mostly algorithms and system design interviews. I thought I did pretty well
(something like 3 very good interviews, 1 good, and 1 ok). In both cases, the
conclusion was that my results were good enough for an L4 position, but they
wouldn't hire me for less than L5. (Why not, I'd be happy as an L4...). Also,
I found the interview process pretty random and arbitrary. One company praised
my algorithmic skills, while the other said that I did very well on system
design). They encouraged me to re-apply.

I'm not concerned about the actual job, I don't feel less capable than my 30
year old self. I'm more knowledgeable, and I have more experience with human
interactions.

The interviewers all told me that you don't have to be a manager if you don't
want to, and that good developers were always valued, regardless of their age.
I don't know how much of this is true though. I can't help thinking that my
age had played against me in the final decision.

The interview process is a pain. It's very random, it takes a lot of time
preparing (some people literally spend months working full time). The things
they ask you have very little value besides getting you a job. At least, it's
kind of fun to work on these leetcode problems, but after 200 hundred
variations of BST and dynamic programming exercices it starts to get old.
Also, if you already have a demanding job (and maybe a family), it's hard to
find the time to practice.

If you spend enough time preparing AND if you aren't stressed out during the
actual interview, I think you can pass with reasonable probability the
algorithm interviews. I found system designs a little more random. My question
wasn't in the "syllabus" they provided me. Also, as an older programmer, there
may be many things that you knew a few years back. You're disadvantaged
compared to a younger graduate.

~~~
southphillyman
>In both cases, the conclusion was that my results were good enough for an L4
position, but they wouldn't hire me for less than L5. (Why not, I'd be happy
as an L4...).

Can you elaborate on this? Were you interviewing specifically for L5 roles? I
wonder if years of experience or even achievements can be used against a
candidate by raising the bar so to speak. Maybe one is a L5 at their current
company but only a L4 elsewhere. As long as you can contribute at whatever
level is appropriate for the given company I don't think it should be held
against the candidate.

~~~
yodsanklai
I was applying for a software engineering position. No particular level was
specified. After the interviews, the recruiter basically told me that they
couldn't make me an offer for a L4 position, considering my experience (I
think he mentioned 7 years of experience). Interestingly, I had the exact same
explanation at two different companies.

A year later a different recruiter from the same company contacted me again to
ask me to re-interview. Then he contacted the recruiter from one year ago to
see if I had to retake the initial phone interview, or go directly on site.
After discussing with her, he told me that they don't have currently an L5
position open, and that he would be contact me again in a few months (which he
didn't).

~~~
southphillyman
Thanks, I hear a lot of stories of people being down leveled but it sounds
like some companies have strict bands related to YOE. L4 appears to be mid
level and I guess 7 yrs if on the upper limits of that but you'd think they'd
give you the option of being down leveled or not to get your foot in the door.

~~~
nbm
L4 is an intermediary level between new-to-industry junior (new grads
generally start at L3) and mid-level (L5). In many companies, it's expected
that people will reach L5 within some time period.

Failing to have grown skills and project scope to L5 level after extensive
time in the industry could be interpreted by some as poor motivation or career
growth planning - their thinking is that if you've been doing the same thing
for years elsewhere without growing, you'll tend to be trying to do the same
things for years there without growing.

~~~
yodsanklai
> Failing to have grown skills and project scope to L5 level after extensive
> time in the industry

The projects I've worked on in my career haven't been considered in the
interview process. They just expected better results on their standardized
interviews (algo + system design) compared to a more junior candidate. I don't
think the question they ask correlate at all with candidate experience, even
for the system design part.

But overall, I think it's an imperfect but fair process.

~~~
nbm
I'm definitely not going to defend the industry's interview processes'
effectiveness at consistently and/or accurately extracting useful information
(or even just the information that it is intended to). When faced with the
output of the process indicating this "flat" trajectory (however inaccurate
that may be), that's just how some people interpret it.

------
sulam
I would not recommend trying to interview as a manager for any large tech
company without having first been a manager in another role. I would also not
recommend doing this for small startups, but some may be willing to hire you
into such a role without you being able to point to concrete experience in the
role (the filters aren't as strong).

I say this because that is personally a cardinal rule of mine, and I've never
heard anyone contradict it -- hiring a manager comes with inherent risk, and
you significantly add to that risk by hiring someone that hasn't done it
before. If you want to try out management, you should first get a job as an
individual contributor somewhere and then move into a management job in that
company. They will know a lot more about you from having worked with you and
you will know a lot more about the team, the company, etc and have a much
higher chance of being successful.

This is really a two-way street, you are much more likely to be successful
this way as well. The interview process is simply too artificial to get a good
read on how someone will do as a manager when they don't have previous
experience.

~~~
syndacks
What's the bar for being hired as a FAANG engineering manager? Prev FAANG
management experience? Prev FAANG IC role? Cursory LinkedIn searches show many
FAANG engineering managers were promoted from within or came from a similar
position at a similar company. FWIW I've been both an IC before and have
steadily moved to CTO at my current startup. I come from a non traditional
background (non CS) but had several leadership roles there.

Thanks.

~~~
nbm
Being hired in as an engineering manager requires having been an engineering
manager previously (at any company), generally for a reasonable period (let's
say, minimum two years of full-time management experience minimum with at
least 3 direct reports), with a career YOE of around at least five years.
You're generally coming in at the same pay band as a senior IC (you might be
able to see this sort of information in levels.fyi), so you'll be in the same
ballpark of experience/career trajectory.

If you don't have enough engineering manager experience, you can generally
join as an IC (with a full IC interview loop) with a view to converting to
manager. You may have additional discussions or even interviews around
management as well, especially if converting to manager is something you
identify as a career goal (as opposed to an option).

Converting to manager from an IC is generally pretty easy if you've shown good
aptitude for leadership - the larger companies generally find it a lot easier
to hire ICs than good managers externally, so internal conversions are
necessary to keep up with demand for quality management attention on teams.

~~~
asdf21
What are the interview questions aligned towards? More soft skills, or are
there still a bunch of algo questions, etc?

~~~
nbm
I don't know if this is as standard across the FAANG (and similarly styled
companies) as an IC interview is - some companies expect managers to have been
able to be successful as mid-level ICs, and some might not. Recruiters will
generally happily describe company's process to you if you're applying, or
will tell you if you ask if they reach out to you.

Often, you'll still have a coding (or other technical interview) and a system
design interview, and a probably very similar general "people skills/career"
type interview that an IC gets. But instead of another one or two technical
interviews, you'll have another one or two manager-focused interviews (how to
build teams, how to run projects, how to grow individuals, how to navigate a
particular scenario).

------
robdimarco
I have very similar experience. I'm 42, spent most of my career in startups /
small companies in CTO-level positions, but last year took an engineering
position in big tech (at one of the companies you mention).

My suggestion for someone with a lot of experience is to focus more on
networking your way in to the company than on skills brush up. Find contacts
at the company(s) you are interested in and try to set up direct meetings (in
person, video conference) to find out more about positions, responsibilities,
etc. at that particular company. Each company has their own unique
philosophies and growth paths for individual contributors vs. eng. managers,
so I don't know that there would be one generic piece of advice to follow.

Feel free to reach out to me at <username> @ gmail if you would like to talk
more specifics.

~~~
Rickasaurus
As someone in a CTO position now but being a serious IC ~5 years ago, I'm
curious. How was the transition back for you? I love my job, but I also miss
it.

~~~
robdimarco
So far (been about 9 months), I like being an IC a lot. I still get to be a
leader and mentor, but have a lot less paperwork to fill out come review time!
I always enjoyed the coding part of the startup CTO job more than the manager
part anyhow. I feel that if I ever want to get back in to management, either
at my current employer or somewhere else, I'll be able to make that transition
pretty easily.

But if I go full-time manager, I don't know how easy it would be to flip back
to dev / IC.

------
tom_b
YMMV, but in my non-FAANG experience in the mid-/south- eastern US, tech
managers seem to make at least 1.25X for X=senior dev salary. Maybe keep that
in mind?

My dev friends over the last 10+ years have included people who made a
management/dev track career decision and anecdotally speaking, those who chose
management have earned more and seemed to have more employment stability. In a
couple of cases, I have friends in my personal network earning 3X a senior dev
salary managing dev teams.

Personally, I decided to stick with the dev track and have been somewhat
dismayed to find (after 10+years with one employer) that I am often pulled
into decision/management-type situations but am consistently evaluated as a
lower-level employee because "coder." It's even more annoying when I chat with
my peer group who made the mgmt track choice and I find that the overlap
between what I do and they do is actually _very_ large.

~~~
Aperocky
> my non-FAANG experience

I think this is highly relevant. Traditional companies have a historically
inherited structure where the talents to 'do things' are relatively easy to
come by, allowing management to accrue larger influences and hence
compensation with the organization. The practice has a lot of momentum as you
would hire the same managers even for a software business, they'd come from
one of these places.

The growth of FAANG and other new tech companies threatens to end this by
driving up the scarcity of engineering talents, while creating an entirely new
management class that used to be engineers. While they do make more than most
engineers in those companies, they take on highly technical decisions that
management in traditional industry mostly refrain (drive & initiate vs select
from n things).

------
lvspiff
As a senior manager of a development team at a Fortune 10 company that
consists of many members who are in their 40's or older one of the things I'm
looking at during the interview process is their ability to logic and reason.
That ability alone seems to be so much stronger just due to living the ups and
downs. Displaying this, focusing on this, is by far one of those things that
makes you stand out.

One of the biggest pitfalls of ICs regardless of age (but I see it more as
some get older) is the inability to break free from the past. If you cant
learn, or refuse to accept, anything new have no use for you. Tech is changing
constantly and if you can't tout something you are looking forward to and just
constantly looking back on that one project you did and using that same
method/tool/tech it really makes it difficult to envision.

There are IC roles that are "lead" but not management which our company calls
"Principal" consultants - that seems to be the latest term in the industry
that everyone is going with to denote someone at a high level of expertise who
contributes at somewhat of a manager level but not necessarily of people just
of projects but is still more of an IC than a project manager.

------
aspectmin
Just speaking from my experience. I rejoined Microsoft at 47. Loved it. There
are a lot more grey hairs there than during the early days, and nobody cares
(in a good way). You’re just part of the team. Go for it. Satya has done
amazing things with that company, and in many teams it’s like working for a
startup, but with the safety/security of a bigger co.

I lasted 3 years and then got the urge to go chase my own thing again
(ML/robotics consultancy), but most my friends (well into their 50’s) are
still there.

Go for it.

------
harel
I don't know where you live, but I'm guessing you're in the US. I'm 43 as
well, been mostly the startup world for 20+ years - similar journey (worked,
founded, etc). After my last startup got sold (not at best terms), I also took
the time to relax a bit (and ended up rebooting another business and starting
another instead).

Anyway, after my timeout I got back into contracting. First of all, I've never
encountered ageism and my experience was always appreciated. It could be to do
with my attitude, or maybe ageism is not a thing in the UK as it is elsewhere.
I think attitude helps and if you come across as a friendly experienced person
you will be able to get in.

My question to you would be why go for the "Larger" tech companies? Why not
focus on established smaller companies? I personally equate those with start-
up level stress but less ability to affect things. Again, just my personal
perspective. Second point - do try contracting. It's quite liberating not
being tied to a place in a long term mental-bond. The market is great for
contracts (at least in the UK).

~~~
cutthegrass2
This is a great perspective and resonates a lot for me.

Curious though, to hear your thoughts on the incoming off-payroll legislation
and how you feel it will effect the UK contracting market.

~~~
harel
We've just been talking about this yesterday and today in the client's office,
where most of us are contractors. It's an agency, most tech staff is on
contract, the client is a government body where almost everyone there are
contractors because gov pay is low and nobody will take the work on their PAYE
rates. Spoke to my accountant who told me this whole IR-35 malarkey is under
review at the moment and might or might not happen come April. He made a good
point regarding IR-35 "insurances" saying that they are only offered because
the chance of being hit by HMRC for that are slim to none which is why they
are passing the buck to the clients. The problem is not HMRC vs the Contractor
but now HMRC scaring the clients from hiring contractors.

Another friend told me his current client wants them all inside IR-35 which
means a mass contractor exodus. He also told me banks are cutting the
contractors as well. The problem for banks is that a LOT of their tech staff
are contractors at high rates.

To be perfectly honest, I'm concerned to a degree. Both for contractors like
me, and to clients who rely on contractors - come April, if this is not
retracted, there will be a mass shortage of hands. Being inside IR-35 is like
being PAYE without benefits and PAYE pay is significantly lower than contract
one. This is quite a problematic situation.

------
ping_pong
Not an issue. I'm older than you by a few years and I'm looking for a new job.
I have 5 onsites lined up with more to come. Age hasn't been an issue except
for expectations at places like Google that want to interview and hire me at
L6+ level which I know I'm not good enough for, hence why I was never hired.
Otherwise I'm not concerned... yet.

I am an IC so I make sure my code is top notch, which means I need to LC for
weeks before I'm ready for the onsites.

------
wonjohnchoi
I am still in my 20's and recently switched team. Switching team made me think
a lot about what I want to do in my life, and I still haven't been able to
figure it out. I was feeling anxious and worried as I felt I am old enough
that I should know what I want to do.

Reading some of comments in this thread made me realize that many people don't
figure out what they want to do, even until 40's, so I feel better that I am
not alone in this. I thank you all for sharing your perspectives with career.
I will bookmark this page and read this whenever I feel lost with direction of
my career.

------
nameseemslegit
I joined a FAANG company when I was about 40 years old around just a couple of
years ago coming from a sequence of startups and smaller companies. I think
the biggest adjustment to make is the performance review systems. At these big
companies performance is not about doing right things, but about fitting in
with insular expectations. The senior folks who you would hope could mentor
you may have no idea that you don't "get it" or what kind of feedback it
requires to make the transition. In contrast, a lot of feedback you get at
smaller companies is to just focus on doing right things for the business and
not worry about any defined expectations.

I have seen some people make the transition smoothly... others not so much.

------
czbond
I cold applied for an L7 position at "A" recently. Going in, I had fear that I
was under qualified. My background is CompSci, Management consulting and
leading teams at global 5 companies, startup founder, and other lead
positions. I left the L7 interview wholly underwhelmed as I felt I was
interviewed by engineers with experience an inch wide, one mile deep. Whereas
I like to be a mile wide, 0.8 miles deep. My thoughts "maybe L8" is better
didn't set well though...

edit: I'm in Denver, and here senior leader positions are not too common.

~~~
sizzle
Very interesting metaphor of the engineering talent you sized up during your
interview. Thanks for sharing that.

You have an interesting background, would love to learn more about your career
trajectory. Do you have a blog where you write more that you don't mind
sharing? Feel free to email a link if you're up to it. (email in bio)

Thanks!

~~~
czbond
:) I only create things, not document my stories.

~~~
sizzle
Time to start writing :)

------
streetcat1
So you should separate tech companies, from companies that use tech.

Tech companies really care about your tech skills (assuming that you do not
want to go to the manage route), so age should not be an issue. However,
skills might be an issue. I.e. if you spent your career in companies that use
tech, you might not have deep specialization.

Companies that use tech, are easier, which tends to bring less experienced
developers, which usually are younger and might create ageism.

------
unoti
I was 47 when I joined Microsoft and am currently a principal engineer working
as an individual contributor doing engineering work. Before that I was running
my own startup for several years. There are jobs available in everything
imaginable including product management, engineering, management, and blends
of those three.

The age thing wasn’t a problem for me interviewing for an engineering
position. However, I had some difficult engineering interviews with senior and
principal engineers. You should prepare hard to interview very well. The
hardest part is convincing young senior engineers that you’re as good of a
develop as they are or better.

------
sbussard
Ageism is out in SV, because the biggest perpetrators grew up. Plus experience
is worth a lot of money. If you're young or old, don't listen to those who say
you can't do something. It's just one more form of resistance that successful
people have to plow through.

~~~
scottlegrand2
I'm going to disagree. Yes, the biggest perpetrators aged. But in my
experience it became more "50 is the new 40" than it went away.

------
bilekas
What do you enjoy ?

> I am a bit fed up with the stress and uncertainty of startups and looking
> for something more stable, at least for a while.

I think you have answered your own question there for the most part, and I
don't think its too much to ask for a bit of stability.

Personally, I would advise you take some time to think about what areas &
roles you enjoyed the most, as you're looking for something possibly long
term, don't make it difficult `WORK`, instead make it something you enjoy.

Then you can dedicate your time looking for the projects/companies you really
are excited about.

Sounds like a dream, but theres no reason why you can't suit yourself!

Best of luck!

PS: I don't think you should worry about your age, if thats why it was in the
title; but if you're like me, over time I lose patience with people who
wonthave a genuine discussion & be open to being wrong. But this is a maturity
thing that you can asses at interview time I guess.

------
jiveturkey
43? you young-uns crack me up.

> I can still keep up coding

This sounds like you are not confident of your skills. At 43, with 20-ish YOE,
if you want to become a SWE IC at FAANG you better be good, and know it.

> but should I do that, or try for management?

no offense, but you sound like an 18 yo.

In all this time at startups, how is it you haven't learned how to make
decisions? Sorry if I am being harsh, consider it tough love. :)

You might just be coming off in writing as being indecisive and lack
confidence, whereas in real life you are solid. Or you might have the humility
that only true seniority brings. I can't tell from here.

Either way, I don't think this is a question with easy answers that you can
get from a forum. You need to do some soul searching. I would first settle the
question of whether or not you _want_ to go into management, not whether or
not you think FAANG will have you as an IC. There are plenty of books on
becoming a manager. Almost all of them suck, but that doesn't matter. You'll
get some initial perspective from reading 1 or 2 of them.

Assuming you do want to switch tracks to management, I don't know at all how
FAANG is at hiring no-experience managers at age 43. Personally, I like to be
prepared so my personal plan in that case would be to get a manager job at a
startup -- it should be super easy for you. Do that for 2 years max. Quit no
matter what after that. (You need to make that your plan and stick to it.) If
you like it, apply to FAANG! Note though that being a manager at FAANG is
completely different than being one at a startup. But what you're going for is
the resume builder as well as the experience of having direct reports. Ideally
you'd get a job where you have firing authority. Not that you want to exercise
that, but it changes things.

Now if you search within and read a couple books and decide IC is what you
love, take a month to bone up on core algorithms and then go for it.

------
rlt
I'm not quite as old, but I struggle with this question too. Programming and
building shit is my passion, and I'd probably be a terrible manager, but I've
been conditioned to believe management is the wise path for aging software
engineers.

~~~
noir_lord
Same and same except I have more management than programming time but I enjoy
mentoring so that side is fun, if I want to scratch my own itch I have side
projects for that when I want.

It's a trade-off though, by choice I'd be programming most of the time.

------
Technophilis
I have both worked with and interviewed people in their 40s when I worked at a
FAANG. Despite what's advertised by HR, culture tends to be org/team-dependent
at bigger tech companies. I believe that you should be more concerned about
culture fit which is something you can assess during the interview. If you
decide to interview for an individual contributor position, I recommend that
you brush up on algorithms. You can either target a company on LeetCode or go
through a generic list of problems (here is the one I use
[https://theinterviewlist.com](https://theinterviewlist.com))

------
pcurve
Your mileage may vary, but I think management role is hard to come by at
bigger companies, unless you have a connection with existing management who
already work there. So I would hit up your existing connections.

Also, you may already know this, but big companies have their own problems.
Unlike at smaller companies, these are deep structural or cultural issues you
will not be solve. Instead, you have to learn to make the best of it and not
let it get to you.

------
dblock
I joined AWS 6 months ago at 43 as a principal engineer, transitioning from a
CTO role of a Series D company, and wrote about it.

[https://code.dblock.org/2019/11/17/the-pros-and-cons-of-
goin...](https://code.dblock.org/2019/11/17/the-pros-and-cons-of-going-from-
management-back-to-ic.html)

I would recommend it.

------
sindaccos
in your 40s your big picture management skill would be more valuable than
technical skill.

you need to disclose what was your role in these startups.

if you want to go back to coding at FANG there would be less ageism but it
will still be there. Be sure to brush up your algo, data structure. I would
suggest finishing a book of programming interview and you should be set.

~~~
bilekas
> in your 40s your big picture management skill would be more valuable than
> technical skill.

I don't like this assumption: Some of the older engineers & architects I know
are incredibly more adept at developing than management, and speaking with a
lot of them, most are pushed into management roles instead of desiring them.

------
zelly
You should brush up on protocol buffers. Oh and containers. Mostly protocol
buffers.

------
vaingloriole
If you don't care about dealing with the headaches of enterprise/corporate and
know what you are getting into then sure. Not for me. I've tried multiple
times after 15 years in various startups (and .edu). The kultur of a large
company is a deal breaker. I'd suggest looking into consulting or , if you can
do it, find a large company that needs 'SME' and 'Fixer' skills (if you have
those). You can then approach work offsite or telework varying your vista on
the basis of what project needs your skills. Defense contracting has a lot of
this type of work.

------
southphillyman
Not in my 40s yet but I'm in a similar position. I'm going to take some time
off and prep for FAANG interviews. The benefit of the algo focused interview
is it seems like there would be less ageism there as less of the criteria is
based on behavior or fit type questions. Maybe I'm off here but that's what it
appears like. I recently attended a Google recruiting event where a lot of the
Googlers there were over 40 and recently joined the company, a couple of
people even looked to be over 50.

------
chasd00
i'm at the same spot. I've found the team lead role in the consulting industry
to be enjoyable. I mentor junior devs (whole career mentoring in addition to
technical mentoring) and try to setup Sr. devs to do their best work. I still
get to write code and scratch that itch too.

Consulting is nice because projects/customers come and go so every few months
you're on to something different. Of course, consulting has down sides too but
i seem to have a knack for it.

------
rb808
I'm in a similar position. I think if you have experience they really try to
interview you for senior positions where you are defining technical
architectural standards and teaching others. That makes it tough if you just
want to code, but maybe suits you.

At least in the initial stages it seems FAANG companies at least are very good
at ignoring age for applicants, later stages though are tougher when most
people interviewing you are half your age.

------
wefarrell
"I can still keep up coding, but should I do that, or try for management?"

HN can't answer this for you. Which do you prefer?

~~~
jawns
I think the unspoken question is whether it is more prudent for a person of
this age to pursue an individual contributor role or a role in the management
track. Take this for what it's worth, but anecdotally I've heard a lot of
programmers find that once they hit this age, opportunities as an individual
contributor are more limited. So if the goal is to get a stable job at a large
tech company, then the question is which track to pursue, and I think the
decision process should go like this:

Really love coding, really hate management: Apply for IC. Tolerate/enjoy
management: Apply for management.

~~~
kemiller
I am a great people manager, but it's subject to the monkey in the middle
problem, which I find stressful.

~~~
ryandrake
Why not try sliding into project management or product management? It’s not
“real” people management since you typically have no direct reports, but these
careers allow you to remain technical and I’ve encountered way less ageism
here.

------
downerending
Broadly, you will experience significant ageism trying to come in as a
coder/technical type. Probably less of this as a manager.

That said, you should do what you want, especially if you have your nut
already. Look for an outfit that really needs someone and is willing to look
past age (or even sees it as an advantage).

------
huangc10
I hate these questions because it honestly puts me off when I think about my
future. It makes me scared of being old. 43 isn't even that old (isn't
retiring age 65...?) and you seem to be confused what your profession is. I
don't want to be in that position.

If you're 43, you should know what you want to do. If you want to code, go for
a senior/principal programming lead position. If you want to manage, go for a
managerial position. You're asking a question a 20 yr old should be asking
which makes me extremely worried what the future has in store for me. I hope
that when I turn 40 in 2029, I could still do what I love (which happens to be
in programming), and not have to fret if I need to change professions or
not...this is the way.

*Edit, I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but this is really what I feel. I hope when millennials like me start to hit 40, we can change the tech industry's age distribution and we no longer have to worry about problems like this.

~~~
tra3
As you get older you'll realize that "adults" don't know any better than you
do. Consider that moving forward. Nobody has all the right answers, and even
fewer people know what the right answer is for you.

I'm reminded of this quote by Baz Luhrmann:

> The most interesting people I know didn’t know at 22 what they wanted to do
> with their lives, some of the most interesting 40 year olds I know still
> don’t.

Incidentally, I'm in the same boat as the OP. I've done coding, I've done the
management gig, not sure what life has for me in store in the next 5-10 years.

~~~
killjoywashere
My dad will be 75 in a little over a week. I told him I still don't know what
I want to be when I grow up (I'm 43). He said he still didn't know.

~~~
extragood
A close family friend is a recently retired federal judge, about that age,
maybe a little older. He and his family are some of the unpretentious,
intelligent people that I've met. He said the exact same thing.

------
danellis
I don't think age really has much to do with it. Apart from having more
experience, joining somewhere in your 40s is pretty much like joining
somewhere in your 30s. If you want to code, code. If you want to manage,
manage. But don't decide based on age.

42 at MS

------
cryptozeus
All valid points but this is very personal, no one can answer this. This
question alone requires you to meditate on your personal preferences. "I can
still keep up coding, but should I do that, or try for management?"

------
jlg23
It basically boils down to: what are you more comfortable with?

If it is management, go for it.

If it is coding, be open about your expectations and go with a company that
values your experience while accepting that you're there 9 to 5.

------
sjg007
Sure go for it. Pick one company and apply as a manager or lead and pick
another and apply as an IC. Decide what you want to do. Tailor your resume for
that role.

------
mikece
1\. Can you do the job? 2\. Are you reliable? 3\. Will you, as a human being,
negatively affect the team?

Those are the things I try to determine when I interview someone.

------
longtimegoogler
Depends what you want to do. Are you still passionate about coding? If not
they I would suggest management.

------
4ydx
I've interviewed and failed often enough (with google) to know it is never
going to happen.

------
powowow
I'm a Sr Manager at a FAANG company (and I started here in my 40s). My direct
reports include other SDMs, senior product managers, and staff/principal
engineers.

You mention "trying" for management. If you haven't previously managed people,
then you probably won't be able to get a good SDM role directly. Instead, your
best path would be to be hired as an SDE, demonstrate strong managerial bones
(mentorship, communication, process orientation), and then transition to SDM
after a few years.

If you've mostly been an engineer, then you may want to learn more about
what's expected from different levels of engineer so you can determine,
realistically, where your experience will be sufficient, and where there will
be gap.

~~~
ryandrake
> You mention "trying" for management. If you haven't previously managed
> people, then you probably won't be able to get a good SDM role directly.

This is very true. No company I’ve interviewed with so far was willing to hire
a manager who hasn’t previously managed people.

> Instead, your best path would be to be hired as an SDE, demonstrate strong
> managerial bones

I’ve tried this strategy a number of times and I wish it was that
straightforward. Usually, even internal management roles are set aside for
people who have already managed people before. So, you’ll take the time to be
an outstanding IC, develop credibility with the team and good communication
skills, focus on process building... then finally the workload grows to the
point where you need more than yourself and you think “now is my chance!” You
go to your manager and propose to hire a few people under you and SURPRISE he
already hired an experienced manager who will have three reports including
you! Bummer!

~~~
fatnoah
>I’ve tried this strategy a number of times and I wish it was that
straightforward.

I'm currently at a FAANG and it is that straightforward. You don't just say,
"hey, I should have people under me" but you do say that you're interested in
managing folks some day. The company even offers a specific development track
and training for people that want to do that.

That's also how I got into management at a non-FAANG company. I was hired as
an IC, but indicated that my desire was to be a manager. I eventually became a
VP.

Obviously every place is different, but you do need to make your desires
known.

~~~
syndacks
I'm curious if you can answer the question I posed on this thread a few
sibblings up. Thanks.

~~~
fatnoah
It looks like another user answered your question and covered it well, but
I'll add my own color as well.

>What's the bar for being hired as a FAANG engineering manager?

In my past cycle I interviewed at, and received offers from two of the FAANGs.
Past Engineering management experience was required and experience managing
other managers was definitely a big plus. I think it's that latter bit that
really makes a candidate very attractive since there seems to be high demand.
A history of strong IC experience and technical leadership was also required.

I didn't have FAANG experience, but did have significant startup experience
and a clear career progression, culminating in a few years at larger (>10k
people) companies. One benefit of startup work is that the majority of my past
experience is being the primary architect & owner of complicated production
codebases and systems. The larger companies provided an opportunity to show
how I was effective working cross functionally and getting things done in orgs
where I was not in the chain of command.

So, tl;dr: is that strong IC background plus a few years of management are
required, but specific types of experience can make you more attractive.

------
rc_kas
what does it matter? global warming going to send us into an apocalypse in 2-3
years anyways.

------
Kirby64
That's a pretty broad question, isn't it? Besides your age and that you used
to work at startups and dislike the stress, there isn't much to go on for
guidance. Who knows if you're suited for management, would be better as a code
monkey, or what skills you need to brush up on?

~~~
complianceowl
Not to be disrespectful, but your response sounds like those arrogant Stack
Overflow responses that are simply not helpful. There is enough in his
question for anyone to provide a proper answer.

~~~
Kirby64
The only question (and it appears to be the majority of the responses here)
that looks like you can answer well is if other people have done what he's
considering doing. Maybe that's the discussion he's looking for; the comments
to that affect are definitely good.

The remaining questions regarding coding vs. management or what skills to
'brush up on' are very person-dependent beyond general platitudes. Sure,
discussions can be had, but it kind of depends on what he wants.

~~~
complianceowl
I appreciate the response.

