
‘Climate change is water change’ - Mz
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/08/19/climate-change-is-water-change-why-the-colorado-river-system-is-headed-for-trouble/?utm_campaign=buffer&utm_content=buffer66a9d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_term=.560bb81cb01a
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ChuckMcM
People talk about this being "unprecedented" however there is ample evidence
that the Pueblo people lived in the Colorado River watershed, and then moved
on after an extended drought. That was a few thousand years ago, and frankly I
don't see the residents of Las Vegas moving on, but I can imagine that changes
that happen with or without anthropogenic contribution have been affecting
communities in the area. Where is the story advocating a 'keystone pipeline'
type effort to carry excess water from the inland river systems over to the
west?

My point is we're going to continue to suffer from too much and too little
water across the country. Why not build the equivalent of the Interstate
highway system to give us the power to redistribute water to where ever it is
needed and route it around vulnerable cities and communities when there is too
much?

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niftich
> Why not build

This is a fair question, and pops up in nearly every thread about this topic,
usually replied to with a link to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power_Alliance)
and/or
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recycling_and_Northern_D...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recycling_and_Northern_Development_Canal)

The idea has been raised before, and dismissed because of massive costs,
unprecedented environmental impacts, and the like.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Yup.

And to put my biases on the table, I believe this is where the climate change
disaster is heading. Nobody, and I mean really nobody, with any scientific
training believes that humans can _control_ the climate (yes we _affect_ the
climate but we don't yet have any way of telling it to do one thing or
another). Further, our models for the ways we are _affecting_ the climate
indicate that massive changes in the way water is distributed across the
country are _inevitable_ (see this article as another example of that).

As a result we will either decide to spend the money and apply our technology
to mitigating the _impact_ of climate change on the humans, or we may (some
consider it likely) experience a massive _die off_ of humans. (which oddly
some people are hoping for, they don't think it will be them. See the preppers
in Montana for example)

There are many ways to create the GDP for this, one would be to employ the
under employed[1]. We could allocate two trillion dollars over the next 5
years and put 10M young people to work. Or we could spend the two trillion
dollars like we did over the last 5 years, adventuring in the middle east.[2]
Personally, I would prefer fighting a war we can win, we understand how to
survive climate change.

[1] _" From April to July 2016, the number of employed youth 16 to 24 years
old increased by 1.9 million to 20.5 million, the U.S. Bureau of Labor
Statistics reported today. This year, 53.2 percent of young people were
employed in July, little changed from a year earlier. (The month of July
typically is the summertime peak in youth employment.) Unemployment among
youth rose by 611,000 from April to July 2016, compared with an increase of
654,000 for the same period in 2015. (Because this analysis focuses on the
seasonal changes in youth employment and unemployment that occur each spring
and summer, the data are not seasonally adjusted.)"_ \--
[http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm](http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm)

[2]
[http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/economic](http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/economic)

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jorblumesea
I think as climate change really starts getting going the American Southwest
including California will need to start desalination on a massive scale or
risk mass emigration. The current situation is sketchy at best, give it 20
years and most of that area will be bone dry.

~~~
pm90
Wouldn't it make more sense to build a gigantic pipeline from
Oregon/Washington to California?

~~~
35bge57dtjku
I believe the cost of pumping it outweighs the cost of more desalinization
plants.

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the8472
Desalination needs energy (so does pumping of course). As long as you're not
getting that energy 100% (including supply chain) from renewables you're
making climate change worse.

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sehr
For all those claiming the solution is as easy as "just moving out of the
desert", people aren't the only major issue when it comes to the Colorado
River's water.

So unless you're willing to forego vegetables every single winter, those farms
in the southwestern desert (as backwards as it may seem) are there to stay
until they're too expensive to maintain.

~~~
the8472
Why is such a large fraction of vegetables grown in a desert in the first
place?

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dragonwriter
> Why is such a large fraction of vegetables grown in a desert in the first
> place?

Because the soil and climate (but for, you know, the lack of rainfall) is
otherwise fairly optimal for it, and it is easier to move water to the desert
than soil and desirable aspects of climate to the not-desert.

~~~
sehr
Correct. The soil is incredibly fertile, and at least around the Yuma/imperial
valley area, it's literally the sunniest place on earth.

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exabrial
How about living somewhere more environmentally friendly? Like... Not in a
desert. Plenty of water elsewhere in the USA.

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35bge57dtjku
Where is all the water going, if it's simply not precipitation enough in these
areas?

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handedness
It's a combination of factors. Some's being exported as food (nuts, beef).
Some isn't being recaptured, as aquifers are being depleted to the point of
collapsed. Etc.

~~~
35bge57dtjku
But where does it all end up? In the ocean? In the atmosphere? Frozen in
glaciers? Is it that global warming is making it rain in other areas instead?

~~~
Finnucane
Some combination of those things--warmer air holds more moisture, which leads
to more rainfall in some places. Rain patterns shift. Some places will get
more, other places less.

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jamesblonde
The arctic is, as usual, going crazy this summer. Terrible weather for sea ice
melting (lots of clouds, storms), but we'll probably still end up at the 2nd
lowest sea ice extent when the minimum is reached in Sept. Happening right now
is what will become the longest-running arctic summer storm since records
began. Even more intense storms are forecast for 10 days time. Read more here.
neven1.typepad.com/blog/

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codecamper
Meanwhile solar panel manufacturers are suffering from oversupply, meaning not
enough purchasing. This despite the fact that prices are now down to 60 cents
a watt or less.

Solar will never be cheaper than coal because coal is a rock. it'll always be
cheaper to go dig coal than to make something else. Politicians need to deal
with this or we are all doomed.

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kaybe
Coal is a rock, but you still need to build a plant to burn it, and ship the
coal continuously. With solar when you set up the panels you're basically
done.

~~~
danmaz74
> With solar when you set up the panels you're basically done

Unfortunately, you're done only when the sun shines.

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bcheung
Using squaponics seems like an ideal solution. Food can be grown in a
greenhouse to minimize evaporation. Water doesn't escape into the soil, and it
can be done pretty much anywhere, this leading to less fuel consumption and
transportation costs. Fish require much less water and feed than cattle per
pound of edible flesh.

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mimo777
[https://youtu.be/P0q4o58pKwA](https://youtu.be/P0q4o58pKwA)

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jimmcslim
#phoenixdownthetubes

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shoo
as the parent comment is possibly hinting at, a relevant novel exploring this
is "The Water Knife" by Paolo Bacigalupi

it's a bit of an unpleasant read in parts, but it is exploring a future where
there isn't enough water for everyone, and many people are only left with bad
options, or never really had any.

~~~
jimmcslim
Thanks - was wondering if it was a bit obtuse. Just finished reading "The
Water Knife" and yes I agree it is a bit unpleasant at times, but I find
Bacigalupi's world-building quite compelling.

I might read 'Cadillac Desert' that is referenced by and inspired "The Water
Knife".

