
A Woman’s Story - raganwald
http://raganwald.posterous.com/a-womans-story
======
mhartl
_There were a lot of questions about numbers such as guessing the next number
in a sequence. There were some logic puzzles, the kind where you have to
figure out that it’s the baker who rides a bicycle and the mechanic who lives
in the house with a red door. There were some strange questions where she was
given a sketch of a three dimensional figure such as a cube with some missing
pieces, and she had to guess which shaped piece would fill the missing space,
or guess which of several other pieces was the same thing rotated or
reflected._

This is essentially an IQ test, and what they discovered is that Gwen was
highly intelligent. They then did the smart thing and judged her based on her
demonstrated aptitude rather than on the prevailing prejudices of the day.
Indeed, there was an obvious financial incentive to do so, which serves to
remind us that _unfounded prejudice is unstable in a competitive market for
labor_.

Nowadays, it is effectively illegal in the U.S. to give IQ tests to job
applicants, and in the state of California it is illegal to give a black child
an IQ test even when administered by a school psychologist as part of a
professional assessment. To their proponents, such laws are mere "progress",
but stories like Gwen's show how misguided these rules can be. When there is a
clear incentive to discover the truth, objective assessments _undermine_
prejudice rather than promoting it. It's a lesson we would do well to
remember.

~~~
rmc
_This is essentially an IQ test, and what they discovered was that Gwen was
highly intelligent. They then did the smart thing and judged her based on her
demonstrated aptitude rather than on the prevailing prejudices of the day_

Actually, if you read the whole thing, they didn't believe her "demonstrated
aptitude" because of their "prevailing prejedices". She had to fight to get
them to see her demonstrated aptitude. Many people would be tired of fighting
and would have given up then (or earlier in the process). If the applicant was
in the privileged position, they would not have had to fight.

 _it is illegal in the U.S. to give IQ tests to job applicants_

That's because in the past, the IQ tests were not fair, objective and colour-
blind, but were set up in such a way as to bias _against_ poorer people (which
will be mostly black in the USA). This is easy to do with IQ tests, just ask
lots of questions that require good schooling and education (e.g. word
questions).

Companies used to use IQ tests, and hence claim not be racist, and then be
racist. The ban on IQ tests in job interviews stems from this US Supreme Court
case <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Company> and has hence
probably _improved_ equality.

~~~
kahirsch
> That's because in the past, the IQ tests were not fair, objective and
> colour-blind, but were set up in such a way as to bias against poorer people
> (which will be mostly black in the USA).

This isn't true at all. They haven't been shown to be biased, merely that
blacks score lower. Extensive research has show that IQ tests have equal
predictive power for blacks and whites. "Disparate impact" merely means that
blacks score lower, not that the tests are biased.

> This is easy to do with IQ tests, just ask lots of questions that require
> good schooling and education (e.g. word questions).

The black-white gap is as large or larger on tasks that require very little
education, e.g. "reverse digit span", which merely requires that you repeat a
sequence of numbers in the reverse order from the direction you heard it.

> and has hence probably improved equality.

I've never understood why eliminating one of the few objective measures and
making the hiring process entirely subjective was an improvement.

~~~
Tichy
"They haven't been shown to be biased"

When I think about that question, I think about questions that would be harder
for me (white caucasian) than somebody from another "race" or culture. That is
easy: for example imagine selecting some kind of image puzzles involving
kanjii symbols, or telling apart chinese faces. They are just images, right,
so no bias? But it will be much more easy to tell them apart for somebody with
a chinese background than for me. If such questions exists that are biased
against me, it seems at least very plausible that other questions could be
biased against other "races" and cultures. Another example I read about is how
different cultures see the drawing of a box (a 3d wireframe). Apparently in
western cultures people would see it as a drawing of a 3d box, whereas some
poor test takers in Africa just saw a 2d drawing. This was then interpreted as
Africans being less intelligent, when really they were just as correct as the
people who saw the 3d shape. It just wasn't such a common meme where they
lived to draw 3d shapes like that.

~~~
gwern
If you have the time, I'd be curious to know your answers to the following
(95% confidence intervals if you want):

1\. how many seconds did it take you to think up this refutation of IQ tests?
2\. how many psychologist/psychometrician man-years do you estimate go into
developing any particular IQ test like the RAPM or BOMAT? 3\. what probability
do you give that psychometricians have not also thought of your objection? 4\.
conditional on their thinking of it, what probability do you give that they
have done nothing to cope with it? 5\. how many seconds would it take you in
Google or Wikipedia to find the real answers to 3 & 4? 6\. how many seconds
did it take you to write your comment?

~~~
Tichy
Ok, now I have some more time.

First of all, the thing with the 2d vs 3d drawing was an actual real world
example that I read about. So clearly there are some
psychologists/psychometrians who were wrong about the interpretation of their
tests.

As for 5: if it only takes a few seconds to find those answers, why don't you
do it and give the answers to us?

Edit: I just tried googling "RAPM cultural bias" and didn't get any useful
results. You really should provide the links. Of course your tone makes it
likely that discussing with you is probably a waste of time anyway :-/

~~~
gwern
> Of course your tone makes it likely that discussing with you is probably a
> waste of time anyway :-/

Not really. I ask these questions because I've noticed that astonishingly
often, people online will write a definitive refutation of some scientific
position or new study, which took them only a few seconds to think of and
which is wrong; but _why_ do they do this?

I can think of many possibilities, and I'm never sure what it is: do they
think so poorly of the scientists conducting the study (anti-intellectualism)?
do they think so highly of their own thoughts (Dunning-Krueger)? are they too
stupid to realize any of this (low IQ)? are they too lazy to look up the
answers in Wikipedia or Google Scholar? or is it a cynical ploy for getting
upvoted comments where they count on their fellows not being knowledgeable
enough to call them on it?

Hence, I ask questions to try to isolate what might be the issue and
incidentally point out to the more reflective readers why comments like yours
are fundamentally bad ideas.

Sometimes the spectacle is just horrifying; on a mailing list with a fairly
high level of discussion of cutting-edge research on working memory and dual
n-back, someone posted proudly about how they thought IQ tests were biased
against Africans, and though I point out that this was obvious to him and me,
even more obvious to psychometricians, he never once looked up how the tests
might have been defended against or corrected for cultural biases, despite me
sometimes explicitly naming the names he could punch into Google or Wikipedia.

~~~
Tichy
What makes you so sure that the research around IQ is not flawed? Never mind
that there are probably thousands of researchers with differing opinions.

I am still waiting for your refutations. But honestly, your initial assumption
that every internet commenter is wrong will make it difficult for you to
communicate or learn stuff.

Frankly, I fail to see how pointing out possible flaws in a theory can ever be
"a bad idea". In my opinion to doubt everything should be the default stance
of a scientist.

You mentioned RAPM, I looked it up and it says it was invented 1934 in an
attempt to avoid cultural biases - therefore it uses more graphical elements
than language. My examples show that even graphical elements can have a
cultural bias. So while it is a nice attempt, you can not be sure RAPM
succeeded, even if their intentions were good.

The 2d box vs 3d box thing is an actual event from the history of IQ research,
where IQ testers apparently got it wrong. So these people are fallible, too.
Finally, cultural bias is one of the standard mistakes people (Even if they
are scientists) make.

Note that I didn't even claim the IQ tests are flawed. It bores me if people
confuse my comments with stuff other people said.

------
lifeisstillgood
The biggest lesson I see here is how much family solidarity and positive
expectations makes in a childs education and life. Without her male tribe, and
presumably the female tribe who sent the male tribe along, Reg's mum would
have taken a different path.

As a father of a young family with a spotty family past I wanted to focus on
things I knew for my children. Perhaps I need to focus more on building that
kind of supportive family or pseudo family.

Inspiring stories have a tendancy to inspire things not first thought of.

Thank you

~~~
tomjen3
If you want to raise your child to be successful look at the mars-mellow
experiment. Unlike IQ they could come up with a really strong correlation to
school performance and later success and it seems (at least partially) to be
something the family has some influence over.

~~~
Tichy
I've read about it recently and found a snippet interesting that said the kids
who could wait longer were better at distracting themselves with other stuff.
Interesting because the initial thinking would be "discipline", but just
teaching your kid discipline might not be the thing that helps them over the
marshmallow challenge...

------
MarkMc
I love this story because it shows how important it is to be persistent and
stand up to authority. Lois had to challenge the principal not once but TWICE,
and she was smart enough to get her male relatives involved. Gwen had to fight
for her job application TWICE - once to receive the test paper and again to be
credited for her answers. This persistence is even more impressive because in
each case it involved personal confrontation with someone in authority.

This cultural element of success is underrated. People understand the
importance of intelligence, hard word and luck, but don't realise that
'culture' is also vital. Without a family culture of standing up to authority
going back three generations, Gwen would not have got that great job. (Malcolm
Gladwell devotes much of his book, 'Outliers' to this theme).

------
jerrya
That's a wonderful story; wonderfully written.

If you don't mind, it reminds me of an Asimov story I've always loved,
"Profession". <http://www.inf.ufpr.br/renato/profession.html>

------
sycr
Superb. As a fellow Torontonian, programmer, and just a guy with a mom, this
story warms me up. She sounds badass.

------
flocial
I immediately knew it was about your mother after the first few paragraphs.
Just a bit sad that the debate here quickly degenerated into the political
correctness of IQ tests and the very loaded debate of IQ and race.

When you omit skin color and gender from the story, it's an inspiring story of
family values triumphing over environment. It would also be reasonable to say
that this family probably has a higher level of native intelligence than the
average but they also have instilled the value of hard work and perseverance
to make the most of their potential so even if they were average, they would
get better results given the same potential.

I'm always puzzled at how quickly intelligent debate breaks down among
Americans the second gender or race become part of the discussion.

------
alexholehouse
Captivating as ever, Mr Braithwaite. We all need heroes, and it's especially
satisfying when such a hero is also a parent.

------
eugenejen
It is a wonderful and inspiring story. It is the best way to honor one's
parents. Thanks for sharing it with us.

------
ugh
Goodbye HN. After repeatedly demonstrating your racism and sexism I just
cannot take it anymore. It was nice knowing you.

~~~
hazov
Don't go please, I really appreciate your comments and submissions, although
I'm really not active here. You're one of the few users that I always read
comments from, raganwald also is one.

There's always a histrionic minority that read about some research and always
come here bragging about it (ie, mainly about women, blacks or whatever else),
this type of people, although mainly libertarian have a real dislike for the
individual that is telling of their real beliefs.

------
einhverfr
Fascinating article. I am reminded of things my grandmother said about
breaking into the field of physics (and later really helping greatly expand
the field of astrophysics). I am also reminded of women complaining about the
problems with trying to raise a family and get tenure as science professors
today, and conclude that in many ways my grandmother had it easy.

So it sounds like Gwen's experience wasn't unique. It may be that we are
actually becoming _more_ rather than less hostile towards women breaking into
male-dominated industries.

~~~
k00kykelly
I think we are more hostile to women now than in the past if only because we
say we aren't hostile at all and in the past women and minorities knew they
needed to fight their way in. If you know you're up for a fight vs just
thinking you're evaluating possibilities you're approach is going to be
different. Basically, since the younger generation has bought into the idea
that sexism/racism is on its way out they are more likely to believe someone
when they say - you can't be any good. And why be persistent if maybe you
aren't actually any good?

------
lucb1e
There are a lot of stories lately of women not taken for intelligent or made
fun of, but I don't see that happen here at all.

Recalling from a previous news item, a women said that men always told her to
"lighten up" (assuming that means something along the lines "don't whine, I
didn't mean it that seriously", it doesn't translate). Well either I'm one of
the bastards, or the culture is different here. It appears here we, men and
women, have a lot of... liberties I guess you could say.

Looking at the list of countries allowing gay marriage lately, I was surprised
to see the Netherlands listed as one of just a few. I once read a quote, "Mom,
why do those two women hold hands? - Because they love each other.". I didn't
get why it was upvoted at all (site similar to bash.org, don't remember which
though). It seems rather obvious to me, like a girl asks her mother why a man
and a woman hold hands. Now that I've learned that gay marriage is not
actually that common, I get the point.

Is this true for (black) women in America too? I don't get the impression the
USA is 'behind', but reading these stories you'd almost think it is. Of
course, this particular one is a story from many years ago and either way a
good read. But still, it is one of many last days which make it to the front
page, covering pretty much the same subject.

I'm not saying people should stop posting or upvoting them, nor do I intend to
offend anyone or any country. I'm just wondering aloud what the motivation is
behind posting and upvoting these stories.

~~~
raganwald
Perhaps this story is also about a person who overcame many obstacles to do
somethng nobody thought was possible. If that doesn't belong on HN, what does?

------
andrewflnr
Does anyone else think it's weird that the principal seemed to have authority
over where she could go to secondary school? Was that standard? Is it still
true today?

------
gadders
The comments seem to have degenerated into a debate about the merits of IQ
tests, but I wanted to say thank you for a beautiful and uplifting story.

------
victorhn
Damn, I need to put more effort in my dance lessons.

------
rdl
It sounds like this woman was lucky to both be incredibly intelligent in her
own right, and to have an excellent family who believed in her and were
persuasive to overcome some societal obstacles. And to live in a place with
excellent schools and jobs.

I wonder if she would have gone to work for a big company today, or if she
would have tried to do a startup.

------
rickmb
_'In Toronto, they could marry, but they couldn’t rent an apartment together
as landlords were afraid of “trouble."'_

A bit off-topic, but I'm somewhat shocked by this (and my own ignorance). I
know about the US, but this was an issue in Canada?

~~~
raganwald
In theory they could live anywhere they chose. But the gap between theory and
practice is narrower in theory than it is in practice.

~~~
RyanMcGreal
My parents came to Toronto from Ireland in the 1960s and also experienced
their share of covert racism. It may be hard to imagine that a city that is so
cosmopolitan† today was so repressive and ethnocentric just a few decades ago.

† Notwithstanding the Toronto Sun, et al.

------
hef19898
The most sencere respect for what Gwen did and achieved. I can't tell more and
only draw my hat (bad translation of a german saying, please don't hold it
against me!).

~~~
patrickyeon
OT, but it sounds like you're trying to say "I've got nothing more to say, I
just tip my hat [to her]." As in, no more words required, just a show of
respect.

~~~
hef19898
Yep, that's it! Hope that's not considered spam.

------
donaq
That was a very inspiring story about your mother, raganwald. Thanks for
posting it.

------
munyukim
IQ is very biased depending on the environment you grew up.if u grew up in
zimbabwe or a country with high literacy levels the iq tests will be just too
easy.

------
munyukim
The idea that some race have low IQ because of their race shows how low your
IQ is and you ability to think outside box.

------
hardboiled
To moms. To women. Thanks Raganwald.

------
davedx
Really nicely written post, thanks for sharing.

------
zafka
This is delightful! Thanks for sharing.

------
_corbett
thanks for sharing, a really inspiring story.

