
Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists - yawz
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/2019/03/maya-ritual-balamku-cave-stuns-archaeologists/
======
eps
"Explorers needed to crawl for hours just to reach first of seven offering
chambers"... followed by a shot of one of them, flat of his stomach, clawing
at the surface and just barely _squeezing_ through, head turned sideways.

I am not a claustrofobic person, but this is... damn... this feels suicidal.
Makes you realize that some people are wired way differently than others.

Edit - [https://imgur.com/EHrwHs3.jpg](https://imgur.com/EHrwHs3.jpg)

~~~
kieckerjan
I once got so claustrophobic just by reading a book about caving that I had to
put it away: Blind Descent by James Talbot. It describes the quest of a couple
of maniacs to explore the deepest caves on earth under hellish circumstances.
No light for weeks, no communication with the surface, camping against
vertical walls in the dark, hurricane level winds, tight sumps full of dark
water, disease, panic attacks... Man, who in his sane mind does things like
that?

~~~
Loughla
Honestly it's this kind of thing that really makes me marvel at the human
brain. Most people see 'the grass is greener' as meaning that you will always
want what you don't have.

I see it as meaning that you can honestly get used to anything, given enough
time. It's inspiring really, when I'm at my worst and darkest times, to think
- hey, if someone can deal with being tortured for years and get through it, I
can make it through this.

~~~
gerbilly
> if someone can deal with being tortured for years and get through it, I can
> make it through this.

I understand what you're saying, but being tortured for years leaves
physiological and psychological scars that never go away.

William Sampson, A Canadian who was tortured for 31 months in Saudi Arabia,
died at 52 after suffering four heart attacks in six months.[1]

Three of these were after the torture ended.

[1]
[https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2012/04/01/william_samp...](https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2012/04/01/william_sampson_dies_nine_years_after_release_from_saudi_prison.html)

------
elpakal
I was born and lived for some time in the nearby state of Chiapas. Currently a
coder working in a big city, fighting traffic and pollution every day, away
from wife and kids, worrying about production issues, health, etc. When I see
articles about discoveries like this it always brings me back to my childhood
days driving around the Palenque ruins, seeing the miles and miles of hills
which were obviously ruins that had become overgrown but that the government
had yet to uncover. There are countless more discoveries like this just
waiting in plain sight. Knowing that always gives me some kind of peace inside
- what we know about ourselves and how we have evolved is very little.

~~~
peterlk
"... We need wilderness preserved--as much of it as is still left, and as many
kinds--because it was the challenge against which our character as a people
was formed. The reminder and the reassurance that it is still there is good
for our spiritual health even if we never once in ten years set foot in it. It
is good for us when we are young, because of the incomparable sanity it can
bring briefly, as vacation and rest, into our insane lives. It is important to
us when we are old simply because it is there--important, that is, simply as
an idea." \- Wallace Stegner

Your comment reminded me of this excerpt of a letter to the American Congress
about environmental preservation.

~~~
dTal
"Also, without it, all the insects die and the food chain collapses."

------
duopixel
> Segovia identified 155 artifacts, some with faces of Toltec rain god Tláloc,
> and others with markings of the sacred ceiba tree

It would be significant, because the Mayan version of this god is Chaac
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaac](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaac),
and there's some speculation over who inherited the god from whom:

> Although the name Tlaloc is specifically Aztec, worship of a storm god like
> Tlaloc, associated with mountaintop shrines and with life-giving rain, is as
> at least as old as Teotihuacan and likely was adopted from the Maya god
> Chaac or vice versa, or perhaps he was ultimately derived from an earlier
> Olmec precursor. An underground Tlaloc shrine has been found at
> Teotihuacan.[4]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tl%C4%81loc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tl%C4%81loc)

But my suspicion is that the archaeologist might have said something like "we
found faces of Chaac, who is equivalent to Tláloc" (because Mexicans are much
more familiar with Tláloc) and then it was mangled by the reporter.

~~~
mexica6767
I wish people would stop using the term Aztec because there are no Aztecs
known to us. Aztec was the slave name of the mythical civilization that took
part on the exodus. They are mexicas not Aztecs.

------
ChuckMcM
I found this paragraph really stunning -- _But until the concept of cave
archaeology began to take shape in the 1980s, archaeologists were more
interested in monumental architecture and intact artifacts than they were in
analyzing the residues and materials found in and around objects. When
Balankanché was excavated in 1959, caves were still mapped by hand in the dark
and artifacts were routinely removed from their sites, cleaned, and later put
back. Of all the incense burners found in Balankanché that were filled with
material that could have provided definitive evidence related to the
chronology of the site, for instance, only one was ever analyzed._

Archaeologists essentially destroying archaeological information based on the
inability to see/measure it. I have never met a scientist that came across a
discovery and said, "Wow, this is a huge discovery and we're not even close to
being equipped enough to process it correctly, lets just seal it up again and
wait." But that was what happened here. It is so amazing to get the chance to
look deeply into these things with more capable technology.

~~~
ggm
_I have never met a scientist that came across a discovery and said, "Wow,
this is a huge discovery and we're not even close to being equipped enough to
process it correctly, lets just seal it up again and wait." But that was what
happened here. It is so amazing to get the chance to look deeply into these
things with more capable technology._

Yet, I read a lot of archeology books in my former days and almost all of them
said modern archeology is founded on digging test pits and strips, to _avoid_
complete site exposure unless circumstances demand it, since future science
will be able to exploit the un-disturbed state of the site to do better
science.

Archeologists do the LEAST digging possible nowadays. Its the norm to leave it
the hell alone, not the exception.

~~~
mncharity
> Archeologists do the LEAST digging possible nowadays

Surely "LEAST" would be doing only non-invasive sensing, and rescue digs? Many
digs still aren't.

> digging test pits and strips, to avoid complete site exposure

And oh, the care taken when digging and refilling pits, to minimize, for
instance, the impact on the site microbiome... err, the site microwhatsit?
Picture the careful brain surgeon, picking out his dropped bits of pepperoni
and cheese, licking them off his greasy fingers, patting the cranial flap
down, and beaming proudly.

Archeologists celebrating their standard of care... while being largely
unfamiliar with even the current states of research in genomics, remote
sensing, computer analysis, robotics, and much else, let alone their
forseeable futures... Yes, jewler's pics are better than miner's pickaxes,
careful troweling than careful dynamiting, and hand-held DLSR visual-light
photos better than hand-held sketchbooks... but by how much? Compared to
what's coming over the _next_ hundred years?

~~~
aaaaaatttuyy
> Surely "LEAST" would be doing only non-invasive sensing, and rescue digs?
> Many digs still aren't.

You're nitpicking and you know it.

>> digging test pits and strips, to avoid complete site exposure

> And oh, the care taken when digging and refilling pits, to minimize, for
> instance, the impact on the site microbiome... err, the site microwhatsit?
> Picture the careful brain surgeon, picking out his dropped bits of pepperoni
> and cheese, licking them off his greasy fingers, patting the cranial flap
> down, and beaming proudly.

This is a shit comparison, and you know it.

> Archeologists celebrating their standard of care... while being largely
> unfamiliar with even the current states of research in genomics, remote
> sensing, computer analysis, robotics, and much else, let alone their
> forseeable futures... Yes, jewler's pics are better than miner's pickaxes,
> careful troweling than careful dynamiting, and hand-held DLSR visual-light
> photos better than hand-held sketchbooks... but by how much? Compared to
> what's coming over the next hundred years?

This part is kinda incomprehensible but it seems like you're being critical of
how archaeologists apply innovative tools and methods in their work. You don't
know, however, that archaeologists are arguably the most interdisciplinary
researchers you can imagine, and use methods from all sorts of other fields to
address questions of archaeological concern. There is (in my experience,
anyway) lots of care to apply these methods in ways that are ethical, in ways
that are respectful towards local communities, and in ways that meet the
practical constraints that archaeology faces (rugged terrain, slow pace, low
funding, limited timeframe, non-reproducible data collection, coordination of
methodologically-diverse projects, etc). No tool is recognized to be useful in
its own right, it has to be adapted to suit the circumstances and goals of
archaeological projects.

------
est31
Most of all, I hope they'll find some books in there. Only four books have
survived [1], beyond some highly damaged works which need serious improvement
in CT technology (or other tools) so that we can read them, if they can be
read at all.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices)

~~~
biofox
This is so painful to read.

From the Bishop who oversaw the destruction:

"We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained
nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we
burned them all, which they regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused
them much affliction."

I can barely imagine the anguish those people must have felt. Imagine
witnessing the destruction of your entire recorded history. Virtually all of
the knowledge and art produced by the civilization wiped out in a single act.

~~~
coleifer
It's like that one time we decided to do a rewrite... without tests.

------
ngold
Sealed up for 50 years after it was discovered is one of the greatest gifts to
modern archeology ever. I can't fathom the loss of truly insightful historical
knowledge that would have been lost if it was tampered with 50 years ago. What
a hero to the future of humanity in understanding our past.

~~~
terhechte
Wouldn't sealing it up another 50 years even better? We don't know which much
better technologies we have in 50 years

~~~
ianai
Speaking as an outsider, I grew up near Hispanic cultures in the Southwest. I
think there’s a need for better information about the Maya. For one, there’s a
basic lack of understanding of time “before America” across the US. Most I've
met seem to operate as though human history in the Americas only started with
independence. The colonists wiped out a huge amount of history and culture. We
might not have the best technology that could ever exist, but we do have a
great need to appreciate a shared past. Fifty years from now people will be
further from the past and more likely to take it even less seriously.

~~~
vertak
@ianai you should give the book 1491 a read, it is likely exactly what you're
looking for and a well written book:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_A...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Columbus)

------
toyg
Something is weird.

 _> After its initial discovery by farmers in 1966, Balamku was visited by
archaeologist Víctor Segovia Pinto_

Segovia Pinto reportedly died in 1955, according to this source:
[https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=htt...](https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fprohispen.com%2Fvictor-
segovia-pinto%2F)

1955 was 11 years before the reported discovery. Either there is a typo
somewhere, or Pinto was not the original discoverer. Pinto was a bit of a
celeb at the time, so it's entirely possible that someone erroneously
attributed to him what happened in 1966, or that the discovery happened before
but was only recorded in 1966.

~~~
asveikau
Probably a bad source or typo. This one, from a university, says he died in
'95 on a specific day and place. [https://revistas-
filologicas.unam.mx/estudios-cultura-maya/i...](https://revistas-
filologicas.unam.mx/estudios-cultura-maya/index.php/ecm/article/view/466)

------
your-nanny
I don't know anything about this team, but the ideal procedure would be
minimal disturbance of this site, with minimal removal of artifacts from the
site. Organic material for carbon dating, great.

There are several principles that one mist follow. Archeology is a destructive
science: you can't dig the same pit twice, you can't remove artifacts a second
time. So the first principle is: document everything, and destroy as little as
you can. The second principle is that you must proceed with respect for the
living Maya, who may well regard this adventure as a violation of a holy site
of their ancestors.

~~~
ceejayoz
In the slideshow in the article, it says this:

> The local Maya still revere the caves, and shamans make special offerings to
> the spirit guardians of Balamku and ask for the protection of the scientists
> who are exploring it.

Seems they're respecting and coordinating with the local living Maya.

~~~
your-nanny
thank you for pointing that out to me. I did not look through slides.

------
phkahler
I'm curious about how they decide this is a religious site. The artifacts have
images on them, but that can't be the only indicator of why they were there
can it? Why build pyramids and other things above ground but then make people
crawl deep into a hole to have a small religious site? Isn't it more likely
people of lower status were forced to live underground and this is their stash
of valuables? - to give just one possible alternate interpretation. How do
they decide what a site is?

I'm sure they take into account all the other knowledge that has been gathered
over the years and put this find in context. That's largely missing from the
article.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Valuable objects; difficult to reach; no resources for living (dark, cold; no
food or water). All point to having a very good, very impractical reason for
going there. Religion fills the bill very nicely?

~~~
phkahler
Sounds like a stash of stolen goods to me. And that's actually a practical
reason for going there. OTOH religion wants to be accessible to the people.
They build temples and such to draw people in, not make them crawl into a deep
scary hole where they have a pile of random stuff.

~~~
Digory
Some religions are about secrets, not persuasion.

Mithraism was a popular underground (literally) religion among the Roman army.
And the Hebrews weren’t about letting people traipse through the holy of
holies.

I agree that religion is probably overused in these explanations, but it’s
plausible.

------
JoeAltmaier
So some of those objects appear much too large to fit thru the narrow places
to get into the cave. How did they get there? Were they made in place?

------
keypusher
> some researchers have suggested that excessive deforestation in the Maya
> lowlands, which was once home to some 10-15 million people

I just can't quite get over this stat they dropped in here. 15 million people
in ~250 AD puts it in the same neighborhood as ancient Greece at their peak a
few hundred years earlier.

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sudoaza
I hope they preserve at least some of it instead of escavating it

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lexxed
Doctor June Moone's cave

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roceys
thx. learned.

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lelima
Maya mia!

