
Powell’s says it won’t sell books on Amazon anymore - gscott
https://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/2020/08/powells-says-it-wont-sell-books-on-amazon-anymore-we-must-take-a-stand.html
======
AlexandrB
I'm going to take this opportunity to grind my personal axe: Amazon is
extremely lazy about shipping books, throwing them into lightly-padded
envelopes. Books shipped from Amazon usually arrive with at least minor
cosmetic damage and sometimes much worse. For me this is reason enough to
avoid buying books on Amazon.

~~~
FoomFries
I recently ordered an illustrated novel with a rather heavy paperweight -
Amazon shipped it in weakly padded envelopes and the corners were banged up. I
even bothered to contact their customer service to ship it with better
packaging, to no avail on the replacement item.

I then ordered 10 of the damn things, to see what the packaging would do. 4
came in one box, 3 came in another, and 3 came in individual poorly padded
envelopes. The ones in boxes had insufficiently inflated plastic bags, and
only 2 books out the entire 12 ordered (original, replacement, and the 10)
were what Amazon defines as 'New' upon arrival, though all were shipped as
'New'.

Definitely a frustrating experience.

Edit: I returned all but the one showing the least damage, and received a full
refund after some time.

~~~
Red_Leaves_Flyy
Props for going through the hassle. How bad does Amazonneed to get before the
costs of negligence outweigh doing it right the first time? I would think
there are dozens of actuaries doing the math, maybe I'm giving bezo too much
credit though.

~~~
getlawgdon
No one at Amazon is listening.

~~~
thowaway23413
Keep in mind the following scenario: if all books were packed to ensure no
possible damage, then you would see another set of posts lamenting how
wasteful amazon is with packaging.

As a counter anecdote, in my case, all books get delivered in good enough
condition where I don't feel the need to remark on it.

At amazon's scale, damned if you do/damned if you don't becomes a certainty.

------
maxioatic
I love Powell's. I've spent way too many hours in both of their Portland
locations (and the old Technical store, RIP) over the last 20+ years. I've
lived within walking and biking distance to both the whole time.

That said, these days I buy a majority of my books from Amazon, and have for a
while. The simple reason is that for the books I buy most, which are technical
in nature, the prices on Amazon are so much better.

For example, on Wednesday, I bought (from Amazon):

\- Programming TypeScript

\- Effective TypeScript

\- JavaScript: The Definitive Guide

\- Eloquent JavaScript

(I'm learning TypeScript/JavaScript for work...)

In order, the prices on Amazon vs Powell's:

\- $27, $50

\- $27, $40

\- $52, $70

\- $25, $40

totals: $131, $200

I can't justify spending that much more at Powell's, sorry not sorry. If the
prices were similar, as in 10%-25%, I would for sure buy them from Powell's,
but they rarely are.

Now - what I do buy at Powell's is every other type of book! I'll never buy a
regular old paperback off Amazon, or a cookbook, or a travel book, or ... It's
the categories of books that I don't spend a lot on, for which I will gladly
pay an increased price. I feel this is definitely justified by the experience
I get perusing the stores, finding books I never knew I wanted. (Sometimes the
books at Powell's aren't more expensive or actually cheaper, especially the
used ones).

~~~
rfreiberger
I used to think this way, going with the cheapest method possible but I now
try to buy directly from the publisher or local stores. Not only does it hurt
the publisher buying from Amazon, it also diverts the funds to produce the
next book. Some of my books have been extremely expensive but these are
pennies to the value I find in them and how it improves my career.

~~~
greenie_beans
^^^ can't emphasize this enough. please don't buy from amazon if you have the
means to afford the list price for a book. amazon isn't good for the ecosystem
of books for a lot of reasons, but in this instance amazon makes publishers
lose money. unfortunately publishers have no choice but to sell on amazon. you
gotta vote with your dollars here to help sustain quality publishing.

~~~
Frondo
Something else to be aware of is, with Powell's you're also supporting a union
shop that pays its staff pretty well.

No one's pissing in bottles in the back room at Powell's, unless it's for fun.

~~~
ahmedalsudani
The union fought hard for that right.

------
pschastain
Kudos to Powell's, I've spent literally thousands of dollars over the years at
that magnificent store and will continue to do so; spent hour upon hour there
in my childhood getting lost in wonders it holds.

They don't try to undercut smaller bookstores by offering discounts on new
books like B&N, Amazon, etc., their employees seem to actually enjoy working
there, it's a family-friendly environment and the selection simply can't be
beat. If you enjoy reading, please support this business.

~~~
samcheng
I've never lived in Portland, but try to visit annually; Powell's has earned
its place as a 'must go' destination every year.

I mean, it's a bookstore, with active curation, that spans a city block.
Amazing!

I end up with the book I had in mind, plus half a dozen books discovered along
the way...

~~~
runevault
I've yet to go to Portland, but if I ever do I intend to make a stop at
Powell's assuming the world is in a place where that can happen. Thankfully we
have our own good indie bookstore where I live that's a stand in until I can
make it there.

~~~
trynewideas
Worth noting there are a few Powell's, including a lovely pair of them on the
east side, one a smaller but well-curated satellite of the main store, the
other specialized in gardening, cooking, and craft books. A coffee shop is
sandwiched in the middle. (Assuming anything gets back to near-normal ever
again.)
[https://goo.gl/maps/LhYrHLLJ2UcGFmpA9](https://goo.gl/maps/LhYrHLLJ2UcGFmpA9)

------
qubex
When I visited the PNC in 2015 I peregrinated all the way from Seattle (WA) to
Portland (OR) simply for the joy of visiting _Powell’s_. I even chose my hotel
to be as close as possible (which turned out to be the very hip ACE Hotel,
which was another amazing experience).

These places may be retail businesses, but they’re also basically priceless
experiences that should be viewed as public goods.

~~~
CalRobert
Unfortunately we haven't found a great way to price externalities correctly -
whether the positive externalities of a local bookshop, or the negative
externalities of online commerce.

Of course, there are negative externalities to local stores (people demand the
right to drive there, for some odd reason, though Portland does better here
than most), and positive externalities to online shopping (more efficient
distribution, etc.) but regardless we do a terrible job at pricing them.

~~~
icebraining
The Lello bookstore in Porto, Portugal has a _lot_ of visitors just for
sightseeing (if you search for photos you'll get why), so they started to
charge €3 (~$3.6) for the entrance, refundable if you purchased a book.

Still, seems like Powell's experience is all about the books themselves, so
that value should be well captured in increased sales.

~~~
CalRobert
I have never managed to visit Powells without buying a book, which helps!

------
mfer
[https://bookshop.org/](https://bookshop.org/) is now an option to use instead
of Amazon. It also raises money for local bookstores.

~~~
greenie_beans
I'm conflicted over this business. It's ran by good people but I don't think
it's the right solution for independents to compete with Amazon.

Just go straight to the local bookstore's website. A lot of the stores on
bookshop also have an online store. Bookshop is a supplement and basically
just plugged straight into Ingram (the distributor), so they're able to sell
whatever your local indie's web store lacks.

~~~
x87678r
I tried but local store really is much more expensive, like double or at least
50% - that is if they can even get it. I dont ever want to go there and
browse, just buy some books. For me Amazon is sooo much easier and much
cheaper as well, I wonder what the point of supporting local is for.

~~~
rrrrrrrrrrrryan
A site like Amazon is always going to be better than a local shop if you
already know exactly what you want.

Local shops offer human curation instead of algorithmic recommendation, and
create situations where you can stumble into something that you would have
never even thought to search for.

If this isn't a way you like to shop that's fine of course, but it's something
that a lot of other people enjoy. Personally, I loathe algorithms that
recommend things to me based on what I've already consumed, and certainly hope
we don't ever lose our local bookstores.

~~~
greenie_beans
ditto this. amazon, in its current form, will never be able to emulate a brick
and mortar bookstore. a dedicated staff with exceptional customer service will
curate books and recommend books that an algorithm will never catch.

also, local bookstores tend be an integral part of the local, geographic
community, where you can engage with likeminded folks who live nearby. amazon
can't do that in 2020.

and, amazon has so much power that they force publishers to offer lower
prices. that's bad for your margins if you're a publisher and causes the
quality of book to go down since they're gonna want to sell more of what
sells. what sells well doesn't necessarily mean better quality. i don't want
the good publishers to go out of business.

and! amazon can't do readings and book signings. if you're not into that, then
ok, but book signings are very important for a thriving literary culture.

keep buying on amazon if you want to save money but consider throwing a few
bucks to your local independent from time to time, please

------
atoav
Of the last 10 books I bought on Amazon 4 were faulty prints with miscut
pages, misaligned pages, misprint pages. Two of them had misprint covers. All
of them were sold as new by Amazon itself. I am done with buying books from
them

~~~
reportgunner
Why not buy from bookdepository.com ? They even have free shipping if I
remember correctly.

Honest question - I don't buy books often.

~~~
atoav
I don't know it, I live in Europe, not sure of this is a thing here

~~~
Fargren
I work at Book Depository. We ship to almost every country in the world, and
certainly to every country in Europe.

------
pklausler
If you love Powell's, love their employees too, and do your on-line ordering
via their union's portal
([https://ilwulocal5.com/Support/](https://ilwulocal5.com/Support/)).

------
sybercecurity
On a side note, Amazon really only delivered the coup de grace to independent
bookstores. Large chains like Borders, Barnes and Nobles and box stores like
Target and Walmart weakened them so much they couldn't compete when Amazon
took away their sole advantage: ordering hard-to-find books from small
publishers.

Had a parent that worked in an independent bookstore. The store couldn't match
box stores in price. They had selection and the willingness to order obscure
books for people, but once the Internet came to homes, they weren't the only
ones that did that. Eventually that bookstore got bought out by Borders.
Ironically that store was one of the first customers of the distribution
network Borders set up for their stores.

~~~
ghaff
And even before the chains, there was a big independent bookstore near me that
had the remarkable innovation of selling books at less than list price--which
was probably the first real shot at the small independents in the area. They
eventually shrank and then went out of business, during the Borders/B&N era I
believe.

------
easytiger
> by siphoning business from the real world and replacing it with internet
> commerce.

I've got news for you, people want to order on a whim and have it arrive at
their home the next day. If you don't offer that then people won't buy from
you.

In many parts of the world overgrown local busybodies have destroyed "high
streets" in attempts to monetize drivers and pad their CV; driving people
away.

~~~
qubex
People also want & need to explore physical spaces above and beyond what a
recommendation algorithm suggests. People want to have the full experience of
being immersed in a space. People want to smell the books. People want to try
on clothes and see how they fit and compare them. People don’t want to be
drawn in by the short-term convenience of the most convenient price.

~~~
WalterBright
> People want to try on clothes and see how they fit and compare them

Sure, but I can't find the clothes I want at the mall, and I can on Amazon.
The mall bookstores that used to exist only sold bestsellers.

The "bookstore" I like to browse these days is Goodwill. I sometimes bring
home a shopping bag full of books, for only a few dollars. I've also bought
many "grab bags" of books from Ebay. The Bellevue Public Library has a second
hand bookstore attached, where people donate books and the store sells them.
I've bought a large number of books from them, and the little old ladies who
run it are always charming. Highly recommended!

There are a couple "Little Free Libraries" in my neighborhood and I regularly
insert scifi in them.

------
wrp
Powell's Technical Books used to be my favorite place to hang out. I would
ride downtown in the morning and spend an entire day there, scanning every
shelf in my fields of interest, reveling in periodic hits of serendipity.
Since PTB closed, I've been back once. It wasn't worth it any more. I'll admit
that I did like it better back before the store was spruced up to be like a
Borders.

~~~
zxwx
How is it like Borders? It's a warren of different rooms on different floors,
half of which are more like a warehouse than a retail store, with a huge
selection of used and new books shelved together.

I loved the separate technical books stores, too, although they still have a
great tech section in the main location. I assume the standalone PTBs shrank
then closed because people were browsing more than buying.

~~~
paulcole
> I assume the standalone PTBs shrank then closed because people were browsing
> more than buying

Should’ve charged a modest fee for the periodic hits of serendipity.

~~~
trynewideas
Considering the rent changes around there over the last 5 years, it'd be less
"modest" and more "how much ya got"

------
29athrowaway
Many people go to physical stores, look for a product they like, then search
it on Amazon.

~~~
fileeditview
Here in Germany we have fixed book prices (at least for German books). I think
the publisher sets the price and it must not be sold for less with the
exception if the book is damaged.

So in this case you really have no reason to order the book from Amazon if it
is available at the book store.

For other products this is however true, probably because the price difference
and the sometimes cumbersome return policies of retail shops.

~~~
mcherm
If the price is identical everywhere, then people will compete on other
factors like the percentage of profits the bookseller donates to charity, or
the speed and ease of delivery.

------
cafard
I find that on March 26, I ordered a couple of books from Powell's. Powell's
expected the delivery to be April 14, and as I recall it arrived a day or two
earlier. And two and a half weeks was fine. I wasn't out of reading matter,
and I knew that one of the books would take a couple of weeks to read. What
hurry was there?

------
_Nat_
It's always weird to read a story where someone's rooting for something like
old bookstores to remain in-business.

The thing's that I don't mind the economic shift nor the format shift. I don't
particularly care for bookstores or even old-fashion books; I think electronic
media with active content is _vastly_ superior. I look forward to further
advances in technology, where the line between static media and computation
continues to blur into something far more beautiful.

I appreciate that a shifting economy can be tough on those in sectors that're
drying up. I can sympathize with bookstore owners who feel saddened by having
to close up shop.

But it feels a little weird to see folks taking a rent-seeking position,
arguing that broken windows ought be allowed to keep breaking.

~~~
LanceH
Bookstores offer something electronic media doesn't -- discovery.

1\. You know what you want, you search for it and order it. 2\. You know
vaguely what you want, you search, read reviews and order it. 3\. You walk
into a bookstore and wander around and eventually pick something out.

I just haven't seen #3 replicated in online fashion. Sure there are a million
sites that will guide you to what you want, but you never quite find yourself
in an odd section of the store, pulled in by something you would never have
tried before.

More than anything else, I think this what people miss. They don't want
bookstores to exist just because.

Depending on how old you are, there is a big difference between the big stores
now, and the same stores just 20 years ago. They used to carry a much larger
selection of actual books. My local Barnes & Noble has huge sections dedicated
to toys and other things where books used to be. On the actual shelves that
remain there are fewer books, and far fewer mass market paperbacks. The latter
having been replaced by the more expensive trade paperbacks. The books they do
have tend to be on the very popular end -- something which needs far less
discovery. The library depth they used to have is gone.

This leads to two bad experiences that we didn't use to have in the big book
stores. You want something simple that should exist -- Tom Sawyer for instance
-- and you might only find the trade paperback for $13.95. But you need it for
school and it's too late to order, so you get gouged. Other times I'm looking
for a book that would have been in the back catalog but isn't any more. They
will helpfully offer to order it for me -- at a higher price and longer wait
than Amazon, other retailers, and frequently B&N online as well.

I get they want to carry less inventory. But the whole point of a bookstore
(to me) is the wide inventory of books I don't know I already want. If it's a
matter of just books I know I want, I don't have to go to the bookstore.

I keep going and I keep hoping, but those days appear to be gone. Good luck to
Powell's if they have a better store than my local B&N.

~~~
kanox
> Bookstores offer something electronic media doesn't -- discovery.

No, electronic media provides excellent ways to discover new books.

What you seem to be missing is browsing physical books in physical bookstores,
which is different and grounded mostly in nostalgia.

~~~
trynewideas
I like both methods of discovery, but I don't impulse buy digital books like I
do when I wind up in Powell's and see a 40-year-old used small-press book with
little or no digital profile. Just looked one such example up and the only
copy on Amazon is priced at $332; I got it at Powell's for $7.

[https://www.amazon.com/Star-Ship-Simulation-games-
no/dp/0918...](https://www.amazon.com/Star-Ship-Simulation-games-
no/dp/091839810X)

------
davidw
Once things are better... if you like books, you have to visit Powell's at
some point in your life. I used to work a few blocks away and would often
spend my lunch break there. The trick was to look at books before eating, so
I'd get hungry enough to remember to leave.

------
throwawaysea
While I recognize the convenience and price savings of shopping online at
Amazon, the reality is that once charming bookstores disappear, people won’t
even know what they’re missing to be able to ascribe a value to it. It’s about
wanting a world that has a distributed power scheme (healthily decentralized),
a marketplace of ideas (rather than only what Amazon platforms/sells), value
placed on knowledge (books), spaces for subcultures to thrive, spaces for
people in communities to interact with each other, etc.

Bookshops are just one example of what we are losing to megacorps for whom
anti trust action is long overdue.

------
tly_alex
It's surprsing that in 2020 that a bookstore would like to walk away from
where most customers would go and buy their product. I hope they find it would
be able to serve their customer better with their own online bookstore and
less cost to run their own infrastructure.

------
lowbloodsugar
Local farm says will not sell grain in cities any more; Says agricultural
"revolution" has resulted in decline of people working on farms from 83% to
8%; Working themselves, day in, day out, tilling the land by hand, and all the
good honest work that pre-agricultural revolution farming required.

Some people cite that the agricultural revolution paved the way for cities,
the industrial revolution, science and technology, but what is really
important is jobs that involve turning the land by hand.

The facts that food is now far more available, far cheaper, and far easier to
obtain (it can be delivered to your door) and at far greater variety, don't
offset the fact that if we returned to pre-agricultural revolution pratices we
could have 250 million americans all employed working dawn till dusk on the
fields, with only the occasional famine.

(In other news, Farm admits that its only doing this because "The pandemic
changed the landscape, Powell said, with Amazon prioritizing cleaning supplies
and other essential goods -- slowing the shipment of books.")

------
Jimmc414
I support Powell's courage and I am rooting for them, but I'm afraid they have
waited too long to make a stand and the only limit to Amazon's power to squash
them in the marketplace is Amazon's concern about being perceived as too
powerful.

~~~
bredren
Me too, been going there a long time. Though it has had its own share of
public labor disputes with employees over the years.

That said, the local support really is quite good and as far as I know the
company hasn’t been in real dire straights.

>The pandemic changed the landscape, Powell said...its Amazon sales slowed so
she decided to focus on the bookstore’s own website.

I like Powell’s but the site wasn’t really very good. It was like so many
other companies that have somehow been caught flat footed when they should
have been hiring and building excellent online experiences _around_ their core
value offering years ago.

This is with acknowledgment that the company built out an entire area to do
online sales years back.

Powell’s could have or still can build its own GoodReads or similar engagement
tool but they haven’t and probably won’t.

So long as the company is competing like an online bookstore I don’t think it
will ever compete with Amazon in potential sales.

------
altmind
What's the best alternative to buy physical books for both customer and
publisher?

~~~
coldpie
Often you can buy direct from the author or publisher. If your goal is to
avoid Amazon (although I admit I don't know how this will affect revenues to
the author/publisher), you can get in touch with your local bookstores or
places like [https://www.indiebound.org/](https://www.indiebound.org/)

------
ArkVark
The problem is not Amazon, the problem is local rents. If we encourage mixed-
use zoning, ie. 3-5 storey apartment blocks with the ground and first level
for commercial and office use, we'll lower rents and reduce commutes.

~~~
ericbarrett
Or would hedge funds and REITs just buy these spaces (or keep them to rent out
after building them—a common practice for developers) and continue to charge
high rent with more empty storefronts?

I’ve thought for years that the growing number of commercial vacancies, even
pre-Covid, would “sort itself out.” It certainly hasn’t yet.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
The thing you're seeing with covid is that places are empty for the same
reason they became empty, and the owners are speculating that demand will
rebound in the future (e.g. once there is a vaccine) so they have no reason to
sell for less today.

If you change the zoning at a sufficient scale, rents would be expected to
decline _permanently_ , so there would be nothing gained by holding out until
tomorrow.

~~~
carlob
IIRC Vancouver taxes empty properties more than the ones in use to prevent
this kind of speculation.

------
wdr1
If you've only visited the first Powell's on the south side of Chicago (Hyde
Park), you'll be blown by the Portland location. It truly is a book lovers
paradise.

~~~
eindiran
I have been to the Portland location, and as amazing as it is the Hyde Park
Powell's will always hold a special place in my heart. I spent many a day in
college wasting time in the shelves of Powell's and spent a lot more money
there than I should have. My interest in graphic novels was started by a book
(Dash Shaw's Bodyworld) I stumbled onto there, my interest in poetry the same
(Stanely Kunitz' Passing Through). Perhaps most significantly, I discovered a
book on cellular automata there that really kicked off my interest in computer
science.

------
imglorp
Never been to Powell's but I just ordered a book to support their stand. Good
PR or not, it makes sense.

------
vmception
> declaring that the online retail giant undermines communities by siphoning
> business from the real world and replacing it with internet commerce.

Alternate Title: Powell won't sell any books at all anymore

~~~
eindiran
The truly enormous lines that constantly plague the Portland location would
indicate otherwise.

------
jamisteven
Not sure this is worthy of being on HN.

~~~
pugworthy
If you ever had the opportunity to visit Powell's technical bookstore in the
past, you'd find it very worthy. It was an amazing goldmine of books, back
before Amazon, and back when university campuses had actual bookstores with
actual technical books.

When I worked for Rogue Wave Software in the 90's, we took an all-team field
trip (rented bus) up to Powell's TB with everyone getting a spending amount to
get whatever they wanted.

~~~
phobosanomaly
Reminds me of running to the PO box for the Lindsay's Technical Books catalog
when I was a kid. Someday I'll build that milling machine from scratch.

