
Show HN: Ponzi.es – Startup sticker ponzi scheme - zachlatta
https://ponzi.es
======
codeshaman
From Wikipedia:

Ponzi's original scheme was based on the arbitrage of international reply
coupons for postage stamps; however, he soon diverted investors' money to make
payments to earlier investors and himself. ...

The profit that could be made by taking advantage of the differing postal
rates in different countries to buy IRCs cheaply in one country and exchange
them for stamps of a higher value in another country was the intended profit
generator for a scheme operated by Charles Ponzi, which became the fraudulent
Ponzi scheme.

~~~
icehawk219
For anyone interested in more information on this, or on Ponzi himself, I'd
highly recommend giving Ponzi's Scheme[0] a read. It's a great book on the
subject.

[0]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/0812968360](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0812968360)

~~~
driverdan
"Ponzi: The Incredible True Story of the King of Financial Cons" is good too:
[http://smile.amazon.com/Ponzi-Incredible-Financial-
Library-L...](http://smile.amazon.com/Ponzi-Incredible-Financial-Library-
Larceny-ebook/dp/B000FC1BGU/)

------
natch
Why not ask for "one or more" stickers? (Still promising only two total in
return). If you're not being purist about the ponzie part, that is. Then you
might be able to carry it on a little longer.

~~~
szhu
Because they're being purist about the ponzie part

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thrownaway2424
Which of the examples is considered to be a "startup"? The featured one is a
15-year-old spinoff of a public company with hundreds of millions of dollars
in revenue. The second one is an actual public company with 4000 employees.
The third one might be sort of a startup, but they have over 100 million
dollars in VC backing.

~~~
zachlatta
For the sake of simplicity, we're using it as a blanket term for "tech
company" and are happy with stickers for anything from a tiny 1 person company
to a behemoth like Google (or an event like a hackathon).

~~~
saganus
Wouldn't it be better if you use "tech company" term instead? If the blanket
term is already widely accepted, I see no point in using "startup" instead, as
that will probably cause much more confusion.

~~~
zachlatta
We originally had "tech company" on the site, but after showing it to a few
friends and people that were crashing at our house, it was clear that people
had a better understanding of the site when we used "startup", so we decided
to go with it.

~~~
orf
That's a huge sample bias there. Cool idea, but 'startup' in the name was a
bit confusing at first.

~~~
mlucero
You all over think everything on this forum. I guess that's part of the beauty
of it and likely how some people get stuck doing nothing.

~~~
orf
What, I'm over thinking things because a bunch of SF techy folks preferred the
world startup to company?

------
daveguy
Self sustaining version:

Send us 3 stickers and postage. Get 2 unique stickers back. You get all the
profits of the excess postage (assuming bulk rate) plus the extra sticker can
go to a bin / advertising page of ALL THE STICKERS.

~~~
duderific
Then it wouldn't be a Ponzi scheme though. The whole point is that you depend
on future investments (receipt of cards) to satisfy current investors.

~~~
daveguy
You are correct.

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ohitsdom
Why not ask for 50 cents or a new stamp in the envelope? Including a stamp is
easier in an envelope, and it should make prepping a return envelope simpler.
Require "forever" stamps to protect yourself from a postal price hike.

~~~
zachlatta
Ah, we should update the website! If you send us a forever stamp instead of 50
cents, we'll honor it.

~~~
blakeyrat
You should let people know _not_ to send coins, too. Coins can get violently
ejected from postal sorting machines and cause injuries.

(And as general advice, if you're going to do a mail campaign like this in the
future, it might be a good idea to actually chat to a postal carrier about it
first.)

~~~
jzwinck
You're right that people should not send coins in regular envelopes. But of
course people mail coins, keys, and binder clips pretty frequently. Do you
think USPS employees stand around an open sorting machine just waiting to get
hit in the face with a paperclip?

I actually know someone who has worked on those machines for decades. He never
told me anything other than that the machines might reject your letter, or
your thumb drive might fall out and they'd not be able to find where to send
it.

------
mydpy
I bet a lot of companies would just give you their stickers, simply to take
advantage of your distribution network. It would be funny if this became a
legitimate business idea (while the trend is alive).

~~~
zachlatta
We've actually already had a couple reach out, but we've turned them down
because we want to see how long we can sustain this by "crowdsourcing"
stickers (i.e. being a ponzi scheme).

~~~
rdancer
He also lied. So keep that in mind while thinking of being true to the
original, and just keep it going! :-)

------
mmcclure
The nit picking in these comments seems, for once, to actually be in good
spirit, but this is a really fun idea!

I would love to do this with startup / event t-shirts so I could (eventually)
clean out my drawers...too bad sizing clothes is a little more complicated
than stickers.

~~~
thisone
I'll take your smalls ;)

One advantage to being a small built female at these events, t-shirts in my
size are always left.

~~~
kaybe
If they have female sizes, otherwise we've aquired new dresses..

------
fortytw2
This is awesome in every way. Talk about a fantastic project

~~~
cwilkes
This is an Internet age Ponzi scheme.

~~~
Piskvorrr
Not really; while it does use some of its mechanisms, it lacks the crucial
one: recursion.

~~~
mikeash
How so? Each new "investor's" sticker goes to "pay off" a previous one, and
then they are in turn "paid off" with the stickers from two new "investors."

------
djsumdog
I wonder if they'd honor the deal if I sent them a letter
internationally...with an Australian 50¢ piece

~~~
zachlatta
If you send us an international stamp instead of a 50¢ piece, we'll honor it
;-).

~~~
lorenzhs
not sure how to get a stamp for sending mail _from_ the US to where I live
honestly. But the idea is cool and thanks for considering internationals as
well ;)

~~~
thesimon
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reply_coupon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reply_coupon)

Might work if they are still sold in your country.

A bit expensive though and not sure if they are willing to accept these,
because they have to be _exchanged_ for a stamp, they don't count as a stamp
themselves.

~~~
zachlatta
If we can exchange it at a standard postal office, we'll do it.

~~~
lorenzhs
The article linked by thesimon states "UPU member postal services are obliged
to exchange an IRC for postage, but are not obliged to sell them" so it looks
like this would work. They cost 2€ here in Germany ($2.20) compared to $1.20
for a USPS First-Class Mail International Letter, so it's not _that_ bad.
Really cool!

~~~
mikeash
And this would nicely keep with the whole theme, since Ponzi's original scheme
involved arbitrage with IRCs, before he decided it would be easier to just rip
people off.

------
timdorr
Can I just mail you postage instead of heavy quarters? I think that would be
nicer to the USPS.

~~~
zachlatta
Yup! As long as it's a Forever stamp, we'll honor it :-).

~~~
polynomial
What about a BTC address worth 50¢? 8D

~~~
mathgeek
Exchange rates can and will change while in transit.

------
Cerium
Update: Received two stickers in response! Very cool. Thanks Max for running
the scheme. [http://imgur.com/uwnXc86](http://imgur.com/uwnXc86)

------
devNoise
That moment you see this and then wonder where your pile of stickers went.

------
fluxsauce
In case anyone was curious, mailing cash is legal according to this Snopes
Article - www.snopes.com/legal/postal/sendcash.asp

Can't find a current USPS FAQ, though.

~~~
thrownaway2424
Who would think this was not legal, and why?

~~~
fluxsauce
Mailing physical cash? Because it's a security concern? (theft)

~~~
callumlocke
Why would a security concern (which would apply to mailing anything of value,
not just cash) imply any legal issue?

~~~
fluxsauce
If a particular address was known to consistently receive cash in the mail,
wouldn't that make it a target of theft?

As someone who lives in the Bay Area and has seen car windows smashed for the
change in the cupholder and a friend's motorcycle knocked over to get the
flattened soda can that was being used as a stabilizer, yes, that's a security
concern.

~~~
cglace
How would you know if a particular address receives cash in the mail?

~~~
fluxsauce
Well, in this case visit their website :-)

------
highace
If I want to just buy a load of different startup/saas/tech stickers, is there
a place I can do that?

~~~
LukeB_UK
Stickermule[0] and RedBubble[1] come into mind.

[0] [https://www.stickermule.com/](https://www.stickermule.com/) [1]
[http://www.redbubble.com/](http://www.redbubble.com/)

~~~
benwaffle
And [http://www.unixstickers.com/](http://www.unixstickers.com/)

------
cpdean
Given how many useless stickers I've been given at conferences this might go
on for quite a while.

------
pierrebazoge
Looks like they ride on the Notifuse successful initiative: "Free dev
stickers, worldwide shipping"
[https://notifuse.com/stickers](https://notifuse.com/stickers)

------
thecuriousone
Inspired by what you guys done. I created one based on favours :).
[http://ponzifavour.com/](http://ponzifavour.com/)

~~~
zachlatta
Ah! This is awesome. Just subscribed :-).

------
melvinmt
Curious to know what the privacy policy is with this thing.

------
plesner
Nit, but: it's not actually a Ponzi scheme. What made Ponzi's scheme a Ponzi
scheme was not the postal coupons. It was pretending that investors were
making huge profits to make them keep their money invested, and paying them
with each other's money. At that point the coupons was just an alibi.

Of course I don't know ponzi.es' long-term plan, maybe they'll start taking
investment and promising huge returns. That'd be pretty funny. Though I don't
know if you can legally run a Ponzi scheme, even an ironic one.

~~~
mikeash
Isn't that exactly what this is? You "invest" a sticker, and you get a 100%
return on your investment by receiving two stickers. It's not explicitly
stated, but given the name and the context, I assume that the stickers you
receive come from new "investors."

~~~
decwakeboarder
A ponzi scheme would require a larger upfront sticker investment from new
investors with large but unsustainable sticker returns over time.

This is just a straight up 'sticker + $.50' for 2 stickers exchange.

~~~
mikeash
I thought that a Ponzi scheme was simply one where returns to existing
investors are paid from the capital contributed by new investors.

~~~
plesner
Wouldn't that be a pyramid scheme?

~~~
mikeash
I believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that in a pyramid scheme the
individual participants receive money from new participants that they recruit
(and the people your recruits recruit, and so forth down the line). If you
join a pyramid scheme and then do nothing else, you receive nothing.

A Ponzi scheme is centralized, with new participants joining directly with the
scheme, and proceeds paid out to all existing participants.

As structured, this sticker scheme is a Ponzi scheme, since it's all
centralized and you don't do anything besides send in your sticker and
postage.

~~~
plesner
No you're totally right, it's not a pyramid scheme. I still don't think it's a
Ponzi scheme though because I don't think a sticker and return postage
constitutes an investment. It's just a normal, if unsustainable, trade.

For now. It would be totally consistent with how Ponzi schemes work in real
life to start with something legit that turns out to not be sustainable, and
then turning it into something fraudulent. Say once people have started
sending in stickers they should choose to offer a service where they hang on
to your stickers to save you the trouble of mailing back and forth, and
doubling your holding every 10 days. Then a sticker would be an investment and
it would be a Ponzi scheme.

I can only hope they'll do something like that. It'd be totally in the spirit
of Ponzi.

~~~
mikeash
Obviously it's not actually a Ponzi scheme if you take the whole "stickers"
thing into account. Which is presumably why they aren't being raided by the
authorities right now.

But it's definitely meant to mirror the structure of one, just with stickers
instead of money. If they had you send in $10,000 instead of a sticker, and
promised $20,000 back, it would clearly qualify.

So I'd say it's "a Ponzi scheme, but for stickers."

------
benwaffle
If I send 2 stickers will I get back 4?

~~~
zachlatta
To (somewhat) rate limit it, we'll only send 2 stickers back per envelope
(regardless of whether the envelope has 1 sticker or 10 stickers in it).

------
pearjuice
Can I also send you a dollar and get back four stamps for return postage?

------
wfbarks
the amount of time and effort I'm willing to spend to get start up stickers is
probably about equal to the effort it takes to type in the address to mail
them to. probably less.

------
srameshc
Always wanted that github sticker, never knew where to get from :)

~~~
91bananas
[http://github.myshopify.com/products/die-cut-github-
stickers](http://github.myshopify.com/products/die-cut-github-stickers)

------
mariocesar
You got something here

------
gtpasqual
Would you send it to the EU and take euros :)?

------
collinmanderson
Are you going to do all this work by hand?

~~~
zachlatta
To be honest, we weren't expecting this large of a response. But yes!

------
rogeryu
I want PONIES!

------
jkrejci
Why.

~~~
drmattyg
No, seriously, why is this even worth spending time on? WTF? This isn't even
amusing. It's just random.

~~~
rdancer
You've just defined modern art.

------
austinstorm
LOVE IT

------
personjerry
32 points, 35 minutes ago? Is this a voting ring?

Edit: As mentioned below, also with 0 comments at the time (this was the first
comment)

~~~
paublyrne
Not common to see the top story on HN have 0 comments, as it did when I loaded
the page ...

~~~
zachlatta
Honestly not sure. I've never had a post rise this quickly, though it's
definitely fun to watch! Here's a screenshot of where people are visiting
from: [https://i.imgur.com/Of5xKOk.png](https://i.imgur.com/Of5xKOk.png)

~~~
paublyrne
What did you use to generate this?

~~~
maxw
We're using piwik([https://piwik.org](https://piwik.org)) for analytics, which
has a nice map view.

