
Forced Labor in Malaysia's Electronics Industry - craigjb
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2018/06/malaysia-forced-labor-electronics/563873/?single_page=true
======
rectang
There will always be capital willing to exploit labor to the fullest extent
that it can. But as the poor of the world continue to rise and the global
oversupply of labor diminishes, will labor gain enough leverage to end the
abuses?

~~~
ISL
In time, yes.

~~~
jrs95
I’m not so sure. With an ever closer relationship between global capital and
governments, and advances in technology that could facilitate incredible
levels of surveillance, any form of resistance against the status quo could be
shut down far more effectively than it ever could have been in the past.

~~~
rectang
Yes, this is what I'm concerned about as well. We've entered another gilded
age, with skyrocketing inequality. Some argue that's fine so long as all boats
are rising. But with incredible wealth disparities come political power
disparities, and I don't think it makes sense to acquiesce to relative
marginalization even if in an absolute sense things are improving.

------
git_rancher
Does anyone else remember being taught in Econ 101 about globalization and
comparative advantage and how great it is? Either the educators didn't know
this would happen or it was a campaign to sell the public on the idea. Or
maybe it was just bad teaching. I wonder which one it was.

~~~
Lazare
> Either the educators didn't know this would happen or it was a campaign to
> sell the public on the idea.

Globalisation has resulted in the greatest reduction in human poverty to have
ever occurred. The benefits are not uniformly distributed, and there are
losers and winners, the losers deserve protection, and the shortcomings should
be decried and fixed, sure.

But to conclude from the fact that some migrants in one country are having a
rough time that globalisation _as a whole_ is a negative thing is errant
nonsense; the equivalent of stubbing your toe and deciding that the entire
concept of furniture was a mistake.

The mere fact you're posting on here makes it clear you're part of the global
1%. As such, you have the luxury of preferring policies that avoid making you
uncomfortable. Others face harsher constraints.

~~~
ShorsHammer
> Globalisation has resulted in the greatest reduction in human poverty to
> have ever occurred

Correlation ≠ Causation. How can you so easily attribute one to the other? I'd
argue advancements in science have done far more to alleviate poverty and
suffering rather than lowered trade barriers.

It's a common theme worldwide that most of the gains from globalisation have
gone to the elites while environmental damage has been externalised.

~~~
edanm
That's not a bad point IMO, and one that I often vaguely wonder about too.
Just how much of the reduction in poverty is because of
capitalism/globalization, and how much is because of improved technology?

I'm not sure I know the answer to that. Then again, I'm not sure it's so easy
to separate out these things - capitalism almost certainly lead to more
technology.

------
ArtWomb
Off the coast of Thailand, in international waters, hijacked migrants from
Myanmar and Cambodia are conscripted to slave labor aboard fishing trawlers to
produce the raw materials required by the multi-billion dollar American canned
cat food market. Even massive public support for a boycott would fail to put a
dent in the trade. Similar scenarios are playing out among Bangladeshi textile
workers, Chilean copper miners, Madagascar vanilla harvesters, and on and on.
And that doesn't even consider the global daily traffic in sexual
exploitation.

Blockchain and DLT actually begins to look like a viable solution to tracing
supply chains to their origin transparently and contractually.

------
duxup
Is this perhaps the natural / granted horrific progression to developing? It's
not like the existing first world nations just skipped the exploitative or
their own gilded age phases.

Has anyone made the jump developing without going through such an phase?

I'm not trying to justify it, just wondering.

~~~
opportune
It's only "natural" in the sense that this is what capitalist/market-oriented
development inevitably causes. It would be just as natural for wealthier
countries to simply give poorer countries capital, build infrastructure,
teachers, etc. There is actually a lot of left-wing literature on political
economics regarding whether capitalism is truly necessary to achieve the
transition to an industrialized economy (and this was one of the biggest
issues between the Trotskyist and Stalinist factions).

The only countries that have skipped this transition, to my knowledge, have
been the wealthy oil producing gulf countries. But that is simply because they
owned very valuable land

~~~
throwawaymath
Can you cite some of that literature? I'd like to read it.

~~~
opportune
Arguments against stage theory:

The Permanent Revolution, by Trotsky

Three Conceptions of the Russian Revolution, by Trotsky

On New Democracy, by Mao Zedong

Arguments for stage theory:

On the Theory of Permanent Revolution, by Bukharin

Excerpts from Das Kapital on Historical Materialism and the stages of
development

There are also a lot of less professional sources you can find about it
online.

~~~
wilsonnb2
It looks like the newest of these was written around 1940 - is there anything
more modern on the subject?

Has the field of economics really progressed so little in the past 80 years
that these writings are still the best available?

~~~
opportune
These aren’t really mainstream economics. Marxist economics don’t really get
funding / studied in capitalist economies for obvious reasons

The other reason these are all from around the same time period is that this
was when all of the biggest successful communist revolutions took place. I’m
sure there has been literature about the subject since then - these are just
the most famous/influential because of who wrote them (so these are translated
to English. Most of the other literature would be untranslated
Russian/Chinese/etc.). Notably Deng Xiaoping instituted capitalist reforms in
China as a departure from the traditional Maoist assertion that a period of
capitalist development was unnecessary

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badrabbit
In any given country,labor laws and human rights are addressed by that
country's people and government. This is a local issue. The article makes it
clear that multinationals are not directly part of the problem but their
supply chain vendors are.

What is the expectation here? Should a company headquartered in a different
country enforce it's views on labor,hiring practices and human rights on local
vendors? With what rights? That is an absurdly arrogant way of viewing the
problem. If the local govermnet cares more about economic prosperity than
decent treatment of humans then they have every right to do so,it's their
country and their people. I don't like it but I have no right to tell someone
else how to run their country. It would have been the same way if the tables
were turned. Western standards can't be enforced without western prosperity.

I think,just maybe,western individuals don't apperciate enough just how much
western rights and liberties depend on a stable prosperous economy.

In my opinion,the best way to solve this is by aiding the local economy,by
giving more work and business to the local vendors/supply chain. The more they
prosper,the easier it is for the local working class to demand and get better
treatment. There is change and there is sustainable change. Isn't China a good
example of how working conditiond have somewhat improved over the past 10years
or so?

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profalseidol
Unless you can afford to retire now. We are all in varying degrees subjected
to Forced Labor. We've made many advances in making everything efficient and
more abundant. Yet we still work to the death.

~~~
plaguuuuuu
I'm forced to work, but nobody's forcing me to work 9-5 every weekday.

it beats subsistence farming (tilling fields is hard work) or hunting for my
food though

~~~
profalseidol
Good for you. But for most of people in the world. 9-5 is a dream come true.

Farming technology has advanced so much that you don't need much manpower to
grow food. Yet most of humanity doesn't have access to these technology nor
the lands to use. Yet there's so many idle lands and idle factories. So many
wasted food and unoccupied houses. Yet many are dying from hunger and
homeless. One must wonder why.

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acover
Is there a way to determine which products use slavery and to what extent?

Edit: [https://knowthechain.org](https://knowthechain.org) might work. Don't
drink Monster.

~~~
noobermin
I really get skeptical of attitudes like this. It's not enough to just make a
conscious decision to not buy them yourself because it won't accomplish much.
You need systemic change or significant pressure on the slave shops at the
very least.

~~~
dagss
Getting "systemic change or significant pressure" starts by individuals
spreading awareness and campaigning politically, and determining what goods
are produced using slave labor is a big part of that.

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laser
There are significant policy failings here that need to be addressed, but
assuming that will take a long time or is disincentivized from occurring at
all, are there technology solutions that can be built to help these people? At
the very beginning of the pipeline, before people emigrate from their home
country to find work, do these people yet have access to basic
smartphones/internet, or are they simply too poor? What about text messaging?
How can information be gotten to people about the actual conditions before
they leave, and even more importantly, how can collective information about
the good and bad players be made available? In developed countries we have
everything from Yelp to Glassdoor and beyond, but what do these
underprivileged people use? Are they purely reliant on word of mouth?

------
contingencies
Perhaps this may be realistically solved through increased automation: no
dirty jobs for humans. I visited an Industrial Automation exhibition in
Shenzhen last week which was held in conjunction with a Machine Vision
exhibition. The number of systems and components available was substantial and
the field seems prepared for an explosion: prices for precision gear are low
and dropping, young people have increased access to legoesque mechatronic
toys, and software knowledge is becoming pervasive.

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notananthem
I don't really like how sensationalistic this is, there are way more problems
than just forced labor going into manufacturing. Energy used by manufacturing,
local waste and pollution that goes unchecked, rampant corruption in factory
owners, monopolistic control of the factories, ports, transit of goods,
export, shipping, etc.

We're a LONG way from freely competitive market and open, transparent
regulation would do WONDERS for it.

------
rabboRubble
This article highlights one reason why I had huge issues with the Trans-
Pacific Partnership ("TPP") agreement and more specifically Malaysia's
inclusion in the regional partnership. Pro-trade supporters would argue that
the US is "great and can out-compete" any country. I would argue that the US
workers can not compete with international free labor.

------
clay_the_ripper
These articles sadden me. As a resident of a developed country with a decent
salary I am definitely the beneficiary of the exploitave practices that keep
manufactureed goods as cheap as possible. It is sickening to think that my
dollars flow to the people and companies that make these practices possible.
It doesn’t seem necessary, and is the result of callousness and greed.
Whatever your views on capitalism and market forces, the practices that make
this kind of exploitation of fellow humans possible are simply not necessary
or worth it to save a couple of bucks. Does anyone know what individuals can
do to combat this type of thing or have further reading to recommend?

~~~
closeparen
Spend a few years as a subsistence farmer in one of these countries. It will
both drastically reduce your consumption and give you an understanding of the
life you want to force on people to “save” them from exploitation.

~~~
saas_co_de
False dichotomy. European imperialism has been creating the conditions that
make peasant farming hell for centuries now (and millennia if you count their
own people).

Every single sweatshop laborer takes a job because it is better than the
alternatives, but their range of choices is dictated by imperialist
aggression.

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davidzweig
Foreign domestic workers (maids) are often treated poorly in Malaysia.

[http://www.malaysiandigest.com/features/723621-malaysia-
can-...](http://www.malaysiandigest.com/features/723621-malaysia-can-do-more-
to-protect-foreign-maids.html)

~~~
stevenwoo
That's merely an extension of what is covered in the article, legal immigrants
must pay a commission (two bribes AFAIK to immigrate) go to Malaysia and the
visa/legal immigration is tied to the employer who uses that leverage and the
debt to force the immmigrant employee into a different arrangement much more
advantageous to the employer in tech or fisheries or domestic work. It's seems
no different than what we've been reading for years about Abu Dhabi or United
Arab Emirates.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/19/nyregion/workers-at-
nyus-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/19/nyregion/workers-at-nyus-abu-
dhabi-site-face-harsh-conditions.html)

[https://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2014/oct/23/m...](https://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2014/oct/23/migrant-domestic-workers-uae-beaten-abused)

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voidmain
If people could migrate freely around the world to seek work, economists
crudely estimate that world GDP would roughly double, and that most of this
enormous windfall would go to the poorest people on Earth. There is literally
a hundred trillion dollar bill on the sidewalk for bringing together third-
world labor and first-world legal systems, capital, and service demand.

Instead the first world does its best to wall itself off from economic
migrants, because the right fears that migration will threaten their culture
and the left fears that migration will threaten the welfare state.

As with any prohibition, the economic opportunity gets colonized by criminals.
People seeking a better life will be taken advantage of and some of them will
even wind up worse off than they started. But the root problem isn't the
criminals, and it isn't customers who want cheap electronics. It's the
prohibition of migration.

~~~
rayiner
Except it doesn’t work like that. I’m from Bangladesh. What would happen if
100 million Bangladeshis moved to the US? Would we continue to have a first
world legal system, etc? The answer is no. Instead, we would be tearing down
the statue of liberty:
[https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/world/asia/bangladesh-...](https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/world/asia/bangladesh-
statue-justice-supreme-court-islam.html)

We know this will happen. Bangladesh was in fact a grand experiment in this
regard. After independence in the 1970s, an intellectual elite gave the
country a western style constitution, with principles of secularity and
freedom. What did the Bangladeshis do with it? They quickly repealed those
provisions, made Islam the official religion, etc.

It is a popular mental dysfunction in the west to deny that culture matters.
To believe that the west’s material wealth is the result of random chance,
rather than what people believe, how they act, and what they do.

~~~
wycs
Exactly. I would much rather live in Singapore, something of a dictatorship,
than Bangladesh, a democracy. Democratic freedom is often worth very little.
Open borders would work well if sovereignty were held in competitive non-
democratic institutions like Futarchy or a standardized-testing/sortition
based rotating aristocracy, as both would be held in check by the freedom to
exit that would exist in a world with true open borders. However, if we just
keep our government as it is and allow open borders it will decline in just
the manner you mention.

~~~
crdoconnor
Singapore is hardly a dictatorship. It's not a very free democracy, but they
run free elections and a significant part of what keeps PAP winning these days
is stealing opposition policies.

I don't see a massive distinction between Singaporean elite-driven one party
"democracy" and American elite driven two party "democracy". Both fail in
certain ways but they function up to a certain point.

~~~
emmanuel_1234
Having lived in both, I like saying that Singapore is a fake dictatorship,
whereas Hong Kong is a fake democracy.

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walshemj
Oh its Malaysia apartheid with a brown face (originally thought they meant
china) I seriously looked at a full ride expat job there but after doing some
research decided not to.

I ended up feeling sorry for Singapore's dictator and the BBC world service
report on ethnic rioting that had the line "several dead bodies lying in the
street".

Also id have had to cut my hair - I have a pony tail

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ck2
Just a reminder that the US prison labor industry is billion dollar enterprise
paying 90 cents per hour - against the constitution, but no-one seems to care.

[https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/03/16/prison-
la...](https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/03/16/prison-labour-is-a-
billion-dollar-industry-with-uncertain-returns-for-inmates)

~~~
DuskStar
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime
whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the
United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Slave labor performed by convicts might be morally abhorrent, but it isn't
unconstitutional.

