
Aphantasia - notjtrig
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia
======
harel
This, as a passing interest in HN and other sources started recently, I think,
by a former big shot at Pixar who wrote (or was written about) having a blind
mind's eye. Personally this article turned my world slightly upside down since
I can't visualise. Instead I conceptualise ideas in total "darkness", without
any visual imagery of any kind. I never thought twice about it and assumed
everyone use the term "visualise" to describe what I'm experiencing. Because
of the story posted, I learned after 43 years of existence in this body, that
many people use the term visualise because they "visualise" imagery. I kinda
felt cheated out of a really cool trait I suddenly never possessed (although
it does now explain a lot of things I think might be related).

~~~
deogeo
> (although it does now explain a lot of things I think might be related).

If you'd like to share, I'm curious.

~~~
harel
This is just a collection of things I've read that might or might not be
related, mixed with my intuition of what might or might not be related:

* Absolute rubbish sense of direction. I get lost on a straight road with a GPS. I can't look at a map and visualise a route - i need to properly understand it or know it from repetition (a lot of).

* maybe a plus, maybe not even related - i can visualise sounds and music. I can play back a song or compose a tune in my head. I can "speak" in any accent in my head perfectly - it doesn't translate if I try it out loud but that is just bad speech skills. I also do some music production so this helps though I admit replicating the sound I hear is often very hard.

* No attachment to past events. I can't "visualise" past arguments or bad events, so I'm left with a concept of them which very quickly fades away as it's just "words". Bygones are really bygones. This one I read somewhere as related. Not sure it is, but I do relate.

* I can't draw to save my life, but I can at least copy something if it's simple and right in front of me. Always at awe at people who can draw out of their head (and I'm a son of an artist).

* I remember events from a very early age (earliest memory is from 3 years old approx). But again, I remember specific actions i've done, and can recall the scene, but not visually. Just the idea/concept of it.

* Just generally feeling like I missed out on something that is really cool. And more than that, missed out on the fact I'm missing out for 43 years.

* I rarely remember dreams, but when I do it's a treat because in my dreams I do "see" the dream. I'm always excited when I wake up remembering a dream. It doesn't last though, I forget it soon enough, but that initial moment I know I "saw" something is really nice.

* All those exercises of seeing a photo and then having to recall it - I find those really hard. I can only recall what I memorised verbally (One shoe, two combs on a table etc) - but can't recall the image itself visually.

~~~
AareyBaba
This is fascinating. What about visualizing geometrical objects and doing
design ? I would assume that architecture or mechanical design would be
something you would have a hard time.

~~~
harel
Nothing. Not even simple shapes. Only in concept form. Ideas, not images

------
Symmetry
Imagine a man is walking down the street of a town. He finds the shop he was
meaning to buy something in and enters it.

Now, were you imagining this scene from a particular viewpoint? Did the man
turn to the left or to the right? Was he wearing any particular clothes? Were
they any particular color? Was the front of the store of any particular
material? And could you still see the man in the store even though he might
be, from your mind's eye's point of view, be behind a wall?

~~~
justinpombrio
I like this as an attempt to operationalize mental imagery, which is very
difficult to pin down.

> Now, were you imagining this scene from a particular viewpoint?

Yes, from above.

> Did the man turn to the left or to the right?

Yes, to the left.

> Was he wearing any particular clothes? Were they any particular color? Was
> the front of the store of any particular material?

No, no, and no.

> And could you still see the man in the store even though he might be, from
> your mind's eye's point of view, be behind a wall?

My mental imagery ended as he entered the store. But if it had continued, I
think it would have switched to a vantage point inside the store.

------
wyldfire
Either it's Baader-Meinhof effect at work or this came from [1][2].

I can't imagine what it's like to not be able to picture things but now I
wonder if I'm really picturing things at all or if I'm just imagining them.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/c4i94n/tifu_by_explai...](https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/c4i94n/tifu_by_explaining_my_synesthesia_to_my_boyfriend/)

[2]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/c4lzwm/tifu_by_readin...](https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/c4lzwm/tifu_by_reading_a_reddit_post_and_learning_that_i/)

~~~
codezero
Somewhat related to my comment - I'm sure that, as with most things in the
human experience, there's a wide spectrum.

What's the difference between imagining something and seeing a picture? That's
kind of rhetorical, and kind of not. The article that this page links to from
2005 says:

"Asked to imagine a familiar item or recall a recent event, most people can
call to mind an image that is less vivid than the original but has a visual
‘feel’. This expresses our capacity to experience visual mental imagery."

Which is still super vague as to what people do when they "call to mind"
something, or what a visual feel is...

~~~
feanaro
> Which is still super vague as to what people do when they "call to mind"
> something, or what a visual feel is...

I think it's pretty easy to explain relatively unambiguously though.

When you're looking at an object, let's say an orange, you are experiencing a
unique, particular sensation which usually only happens when you're looking at
an orange. Being able to visualize things is to be able to create the same
sensation wilfully even when you're not looking at an orange (albeit of
perhaps a lesser intensity).

~~~
Ill_ban_myself
Most people who suffer from this could be shown a 3d modeling or CAD tool. I
would explain it as having access to this when you close your eyes, except its
hazy and comes in and out of focus.

It can also be used to conjure a short movie like sequence or animation as
well. I most frequently use it to plan routes in my mind whether its in the
car or how I'm going to move through a particular space it helps orient you
and improves reaction speed and can be tied to muscle memory. It takes some
focus and is rarely used simultaneously with other activities. It's more like
a planning or focusing activity for brief bursts before you take action.

Its actually quite like those slow motion 360 sequences in the matrix. I think
that's probably why that film technique gained such traction, as its a slowed
down version of what our brains do when we use our visual memory to navigate
our movement.

------
extr
Something I don't see people mention much is a sense of dynamic resolution to
mental imagery. I took the quiz posted here and it felt completely meaningless
to me. If you want me to visualize a scene, there aren't really details until
I give it details. If I'm told to imagine a wooden door with no other
instructions it's like I'm seeing the door in a passing glance or out of the
corner of my eye. If you ask me if it's "clear and vivid", I can make it that
way to any arbitrary degree needed. Looking closer and seeing that the wood is
old and somewhat warped, feel the cracks in the wood, look closer and see the
brass on the handle has discolored slightly from use, etc etc. But it feels
pointless to do. Certainly it's at least as detailed as a real life image, if
I think about it, but it's definitely not like, crowding out my actual vision
with it's sheer lucidity, which some of the answers seem to suggest.

~~~
djakjxnanjak
I’m the same way, details in my visualization only appear where my attention
is directed.

~~~
zachsnow
It seems to me that is how my eyesight works, too, so it’s unsurprising that’s
how my mind’s “eyesight” works as well!

------
codezero
Maybe someone has better resources, but I found it interesting that the paper
linked within about the particular patient MX, says, ...mental imagery is
ubiquitous..., but I can't find an example of what people consider mental
imagery.

Is what I consider mental imagery the same as someone else? I dunno.

FWIW, for me, mental imagery seems to take the form of a very brief flash when
I'm thinking of a simple object, like a rock, for example. But I assume it
extends into less concrete things like when I'm daydreaming, where there is no
distinct clear image, it's more of an inner monologue of themes/intent with a
few flashes of imagery here and there.

------
theogravity
I have this (unable to have any kind of mental imagery at all, and discovered
that it was not normal via the Facebook article by Blake Ross years ago) and
unscientifically correlate this condition as part of my lack of ability to
remember certain things and recall events with storytelling ability.

I also sometimes have problems remembering names and eventually forget faces
as well if I'm out of contact with someone for a long time.

Anyone else with aphantasia relate to this, or are my issues unrelated?

My wife, who describes herself as having very vivid mental imagery and says
she has involuntary photographic memory at times (as in she does not know what
triggers a memory to be completely photographic), has superb memory, and I
personally believe it's what enables her to quickly learn so many languages.

So as a result (I know, based on sample size one), I'm led to personally
believe that my memory-related issues may have some correspondence to
aphantasia.

~~~
napsterbr
> discovered that it was not normal

Ah this was so surprising to me as well. It was mind blowing suddenly
realizing how powerful other people's visual imagination is.

Allow me to contribute to the sample size:

I probably have aphantasia. It requires a lot of effort to imagine simple,
basic visual details when thinking of something. I am terrible at describing
faces of people I see every day, let alone strangers.

But when I do see someone I know, I usually recognize them instantly, even if
their face changed a bit (facial hair change, long time no see etc).

I also am great with names. Once I get to know someone, I'll probably remember
their name for a very long time (decades). I can remember the full name of
most of my friends from 15 years ago. But other than that, my memory is really
bad.

I do have one odd thing that I've always wondered. Most women's faces look
like the same to me. In movies, I have a hard time knowing which women they
are talking about (and it takes some time to associate a name to a face). Yet,
I have no such problem with men.

Possibly related, I am attracted to men, which could explain why I can easily
differentiate each men, but most women look the same for me.

Anyone with similar experiences?

~~~
mattmanser
I have aphantasia, I'm terrible with names but like you am excellent with
faces.

I think the three are totally unrelated.

------
ex3xu
The linked Vividness of Visual Imagery Questionnaire (VVIQ) wikipage only
provides a hard-to-read Youtube video or software download as sources. Here's
a link to the 16-question quiz from aphantasia.com (JS required):
[https://aphantasia.com/quiz/](https://aphantasia.com/quiz/)

I'll add a YMMV, as aphantasia.com adds the following caveats: "...it can be
hard to classify the vividness of a mental image on a scale from 1-5 when you
have nothing to use as a reference point. It is difficult to rank your
vividness of mental imagery when you can’t know how strongly other people
visualize. The test asks you to compare the vision in your head with how you
know it looks in real life in order to reconcile this somewhat: is the
scenario you are being asked to visualize equally vivid to its real world
counterpart, a little less vivid, or not vivid at all/non-existent?

Further, any test that relies on self-reporting will always be subject to some
bias due to the fact that you are more likely to subconsciously (or
consciously) choose answers that will give you the result that you want. "

------
mft_
OP, out of interest, did you come across this due to a TIL on Reddit earlier?

------
iddan
Great video about it
[https://youtu.be/ewsGmhAjjjI](https://youtu.be/ewsGmhAjjjI)

------
ncmncm
I don't doubt the experience, but the fact strikes me as impossible.

Everything you "see" around you, that your eyes are not pointed directly at,
right at this moment, is 100% visualized, in full perspective and living
color.

So, unless you have extreme tunnel vision (which does exist, but they can't
drive, or read at any speed), you have excellent visualization capacity.

I am forced to conclude that you have, instead, very strong suppression of
non-sensory-driven visualization.

------
lqet
Reading the text by Blake Ross [0], I wonder: how on earth does he buy
furniture, if he cannot visualize how the couch will look in his living room?

[0] [https://www.facebook.com/notes/blake-ross/aphantasia-how-
it-...](https://www.facebook.com/notes/blake-ross/aphantasia-how-it-feels-to-
be-blind-in-your-mind/10156834777480504/)

~~~
uxp100
I also "have" (feels weird) aphantasia. Well, it's kinda hard, but I actually
do look at a fair bit of antique furniture, and do a little wood working and
repair, and I focus on materials, measurements and condition. Then when in
place I can move things around and get a feel for a layout. A couch I would go
by measurement largely, I know what's too big for my living room. For colors I
try to use a color wheel or look for other peoples pictures online like "oak
pub table with blue walls" etc.

------
michaelbuckbee
A related subject to this is auditory "visualization" and I wonder if that
could be a way to study it some more:

1\. Get a group of test subjects who can all read music as a baseline

2\. Get them to self-assess on how well they can "hear" imagined notes.

3\. Give them a pitch test to see how well their "internally heard" note
matches a pitch?

The hypothesis being that those with perfect pitch have a really great
internal "ear".

------
michaelbuckbee
A little slow, but this video is fantastic for describing the feeling of
aphantasia and it's sort of doubly fascinating that the incredibly talented
artist who made it suffers from it (as I'm the flip side, great at visualizing
and horrid at creation)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewsGmhAjjjI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewsGmhAjjjI)

------
pella
3y ago:

\- [https://www.facebook.com/notes/blake-ross/aphantasia-how-
it-...](https://www.facebook.com/notes/blake-ross/aphantasia-how-it-feels-to-
be-blind-in-your-mind/10156834777480504)

\- HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11554894](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11554894)

------
croddin
All of the articles I have seen seem to focus on being able to recall imagery.
Is there a similar difference in ability of recalling other senses? I can
visualize in my head to some degree and I can recall sounds to some degree,
but I don't think I can "smell in my head" for example.

------
toonbit
I wrote an article on this a while back
[https://medium.com/@danielwhyte/wireframes-are-a-non-
inclusi...](https://medium.com/@danielwhyte/wireframes-are-a-non-inclusive-
tool-why-i-avoid-using-them-19a4a5835705)

------
RenRav
I first learned other people could imagine/visualize when I had trouble
following meditation instructions online a few years back.

As neat as it sounds to visualize and see things in my head, it doesn't seem
necessary for anything.

------
slartibardfast0
Many interesting comments on a recent previous article:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19618927](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19618927)

------
CodiePetersen
I imagine it's hard to objectively measure this. You also have to trust the
interviewee.

------
wyldfire
I wonder whether this condition relates at all to the theory of mind and/or
empathy.

------
wet_grass_sound
There is a finite number of souls.

