
Garzik: An Andre To Remember - asto
http://lwn.net/Articles/508467/?re=1
======
hobin
I was going to respond to a few of the comments here, but then I realized I
was going to say pretty much the same to all of them, so here goes:

I've got clinical depression. What this means is that there is something
fundamentally wrong in my brain that causes me to be depressed. There is no
direct environmental cause that makes me depressed. Now, here's what many
people get wrong about severe depression:

 _Severe depression does NOT mean that exercise, a healthy diet and getting a
social life won't help at all._

Rather, depression completely drains your motivation to do any of those
things. Which in turn make you more depressed. Which makes you even less
likely to do any of them. And so on and so forth. It's 'positive' feedback,
but it _starts_ with a neurological problem. _This_ is why all the 'cheer
up'-sort of advice doesn't help people who're depressed, and why it tends to
only make them more miserable.

Of course, this is only my experience. I'm quite sure there are plenty of
people who _are_ depressed for reasons found in their environment, and then
get stuck in the same loop. But it would be ridiculous to presume that I'm
unique in this regard.

~~~
singular
I also have clinical depression, and this has also been my experience.

Something which also adds to the problems is that people so often condescend -
'you won't feel better unless you do X, Y or Z' and actually essentially
accuse you of bringing it on yourself. And a lot of the problem is the guilt
you feel about everything, so it's the worst possible thing you can do for a
depressed person.

I find having some project that gives you an output is important, to
contradict the standard 'oh don't spend so much time on a computer project'
points. The alternative a lot of the time for me is spending all day in bed
because I feel so low, so having an outlet matters. But of course you then
find it hard to balance that.

Having said that, all the standard healthy advice is important too. It's just
really important to differentiate between mild and severe depression - it's
like the difference between having the flu and people recommending painkillers
and having a serious chronic disease. The advice is good for mild depression
but really not going to touch anything for the severe variety.

For people who are lucky enough not to suffer from severe depression - don't
presume to know what it's like because you've felt a little bit low before.

/rant

~~~
DanBC
"clinical" depression is meaningless. Literally, it has no meaning. Perhaps
you mean "Diagnosed by a real doctor", as opposed to "self diagnosed from a
check list"?

But when we look at depression diagnosed by experts we see a variety of forms,
and a variety of strengths.

I agree that well meaning people sometimes offer really bad advice.

But advice about developing a healthy lifestyle (being careful with caffeine,
alcohol, recreational drugs; eating better; sorting out sleep; getting
exercise) and developing a social life are important, because these thing help
people with very serious, life threatening, illness. In combination with
therapy they can be part of an effective cure for many people. (At least
leaving others with several years of recovery). If needed, this advice can be
combined with medication. And, if needed, all of this stuff can be started if
the patient is in hospital. (At least in England all MH hospitals should have
programmes of OT to start social life outside hospital and they should have
some kind of exercise stuff, and contacts with local gyms.)

I've known people who are ill enough to require electro convulsive therapy and
they said that this other stuff was important to them, but that they needed
help to apply it.

And that's the important thing. Saying "I am to ill to do this stuff" is not
the same as saying "this stuff would not be helpful to me if I did it". What
people need is help to apply this stuff.

~~~
singular
Well, to me 'clinical' depression implies diagnosed by a doctor, yes.

Sure, and it does vary a lot. So perhaps I meant to say severe vs. mild.

People overstate these things to a degree. Like I said, sure they help, but
it's scratching the surface IMHO. What's more important is to attack the
depression itself, directly.

And, though anecdotal, I've been through periods being severely depressed
despite going to the gym a _lot_ , and eating relatively well, and had it make
very little difference. I've also socialised a lot and had that make no
difference. So this isn't just conjecture.

I guess part of it is that it varies from person to person. Also the degree of
the depression at any given time waxes and wanes.

And agreed, a key thing is to admit you can't do it all by yourself, and go
and get help.

The key thing, however, is for people to lose that attitude of 'go get a life
doing things I think are healthy/fun and you'll be happy' because, basically,
that's b.s. projection, and for some it borders on blame-the-victim mentality.

I think diseases like depression are particularly problematic because people
don't take them seriously and imagine that they're not all that serious,
perhaps slightly made up, or not as solid and easy to diagnose and understand
as a physical illness. Perhaps people need to come to respect it more.

~~~
DanBC
In most cases CBT & exercise and better food is attacking the depression
itself, directly.

> _The key thing, however, is for people to lose that attitude of 'go get a
> life doing things I think are healthy/fun and you'll be happy' because,
> basically, that's b.s. projection,_

Yes, I agree.

~~~
singular
Yeah, I guess I'm saying CBT (+ related, I find SBT[1] very effective myself)
>>> lifestyle improvements.

[1]:<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_therapy>

------
paulrademacher
And as usual with this issue, this post shows little understanding of
depression.

> _There is no computing project that is worth your life. Turn off the
> computer. Seek help. Get outside, enjoy the green grass, the birds in the
> trees. Talk to people you know. Talk to strangers! Drive to Wisconsin, and
> find out whatever it is they do there. Build a treehouse. Park on a parkway
> and drive on a driveway. Make a macaroni necklace. Visit a dairy. Climb a
> rock. Seek life._

Every point except for Seek Help is just "cheer up, pal" bunk.

~~~
jdietrich
What do we mean by "seek help"?

Currently, we have two gold standard treatments, SSRI drugs and Cognitive
Behavioural Therapy.

SSRI drugs probably sort of work a bit, depending on how much weight you place
on non-publication bias. The most flattering data suggests that SSRIs beat
placebo by about 30%, meaning that over 75% of the effect of SSRIs is
accounted for by placebo - the patient's own beliefs about the efficacy of the
treatment.

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is based upon the idea that a patient can learn
to think differently about daily events and their emotional responses to them,
and in doing so improve their overall mood and reduce specific symptoms of
psychological distress. The entire basis for CBT is the idea that people
control their own moods through cognition, with the goal of making the patient
self-sufficient in managing their mood. The notion that only clinical
intervention can improve depressive symptoms directly contradicts the most
effective treatment for depression.

In the best case, either of these treatments is only marginally more
efficacious than arbitrary interventions that generally improve wellbeing -
exercise, better diet, mindfulness practice etc.

There is simply no scientific basis for arguing that depression can only be
alleviated through clinical intervention. Study after study has shown (though
rarely highlighted in the abstract) that placebo is an incredibly powerful
treatment for depression, to the extent that basically anything is a good
treatment so log as the patient believes in it.

The belief that clinical intervention is the only way to improve depressive
symptoms is at best inaccurate and baseless, at worst actively harmful. It is
an irrational and essentially depressive belief and propagating it runs
counter to all our interests.

<http://ccdan.cochrane.org/>

~~~
DanBC
Exercise is not an "arbitrary" intervention, because it also has an evidence
base.

Starting someone on a course of CBT (whether applied by a skilled
practitioner, or self guided[1]) and then pushing them to exercise and to
social life improvement, with meds if needed, is an excellent treatment.

------
Udo
It's hard to disagree with the general sentiment, but trading a life for a
computing project is not really what happened here. Software development does
not cause mental illness. In some cases, stressful jobs contribute to a
person's mental degradation - but it's not like there was ever an option of
trading in this guys passion for technology in exchange for a healthy brain.

~~~
flexd
I feel the real message of the article/letter is to take better care of
yourself. No project is worth ending up in a situation where you feel life is
not worth living, and while software and other computer things are cool and
for most of us probably both work and a hobby, it's important to take a break
from things.

I know I would go absolutely crazy if I could not go outside to do things like
ride a mountain bike, eat some ice cream or simply just not sit in front of a
monitor every day.

If you are feeling stressed, take a break. :)

Edit:

I know it can be hard, and I know people who suffer from depressions can seem
perfectly fine.

A girl I went to school with recently killed herself, much to my surprise, as
through my very limited contact with her these past years she seemed very
happy in a relationship and about to finish school. The next thing I know she
had ended her life. Depression is not something to be taken lightly.

I wish I had known, and I wish there was something I could have done or said.

------
noonespecial
_Get outside, enjoy the green grass, the birds in the trees. Talk to people
you know. Talk to strangers! Drive to Wisconsin, and find out whatever it is
they do there. Build a treehouse. Park on a parkway and drive on a driveway.
Make a macaroni necklace. Visit a dairy. Climb a rock. Seek life._

This is advice for someone who had a bad day. This is not advice for someone
who is depressed! These suggestions assume that the person has hope. Or even
considers the possibility of ever having hope again. There's just no way I can
tell someone who hasn't been on this train what it's like to ride it. It's
like being dead in a way. Would you tell a dead man to get out and enjoy the
grass? It's a bit like that.

~~~
mistermann
You sound like someone personally familiar with depression?

If so, may I ask a question?

I imagine it is true that people who are depressed may have a mental blockade
to self-diagnose and independently coming to the conclusion that they may be
suffering from depression. But is it also true that people who are depressed
may also (always, sometimes) be resistant to _the suggestion from others_ that
they _may_ be suffering from depression? ie: Is it common that depression may
be accompanied by a self-defense mechanism whereby the afflicted may be highly
resistant to the suggestion or any discussion of the topic?

Secondarily....if you are worried about someone, what would be a good
approach? Talk to them on one of their "up" days, hoping that they may be
thinking more clearly than usual?

~~~
sid6376
>> But is it also true that people who are depressed may also (always,
sometimes) be resistant to the suggestion from others that they may be
suffering from depression?

I had a girlfriend once, who suffered from bipolar disorder. The problem is
the feelings that you have while having a depressive episode are real problems
to you, in the sense that they affect you very deeply at that point. When
someone suggests to that person that maybe you are just depressed, it often
seems to them that you are trying to ignoring the issue and instead trying to
shift the blame on them. This infuriates them further and they either lash out
against you or shut up. After screwing up a couple of times,every time I
realized she was possibly having an episode I tried to put it very gently to
her and only after talking about whatever is bothering her. I will also
suggest going through this link to understand how people having a depressive
episode feel(Even though the article is about lupus).
[http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-
christ...](http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-
christine/the-spoon-theory-written-by-christine-miserandino/)

------
zackmorris
This story hits close to home for me. As one of the countless others like me
on Hacker News who started out their educations and careers with so much
promise, all I feel anymore is this tremendous sense of failure and missed
opportunity.

These days I think of programming the way I think of working out: intense
bursts of focus on creativity for maybe 2-4 hours if I'm lucky, and then hours
to days of melancholy because the tools and methodologies I'm using are all
garbage.

Examples of mainstream trash: ios, objective-c, flash, php, c++, 802.11, usb,
xml, html5, mpeg, mp3, dram caches, opengl, just on and on and on. Literally
every tool I use on a daily basis, every file format, every communication
protocol, everything, all fatally flawed in some way. My life has been an
almost complete waste.

I don't know much about IDE/ATA but it must be quite a garbage dump to
traverse. Turning that into something clean like a socket/file reference is
remarkable. Just think of all the things that don't work on hard drives: how
they fail to write the last bit of data in a power failure or maintain
directory consistency, how they were so far behind on caching and hybrid
flash/platter drives, just on and on, a tower of babel of remarkably cheap but
inadequate hardware. Dealing with that, and the layers of politics that
perpetuate such monstrosities would be enough to drive a person mad.

Thank god I'm not depressed though. I was severely out of it from 2000-2010
for a lot of obvious reasons but I finally let everything go and have never
been happier. I. Am. Not. Depressed. It's glorious to say, I feel it all the
way to my core. Life can turn around, and one day you'll wake up and realize
that you don't give a crap about solving the world's problems anymore, because
it's all too far gone. It's not your fault. Just find your niche and reach
some level of sustainability, and save the world later.

~~~
kylebrown
Alan Kay's STEPS project is a non-mainstream paradigm you might find
inspiring. Saw this pdf recently and it blew my mind, which happens much less
often than it used to (like you, I'm becoming more prone to irritability and
frustration).

<http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011004_steps11.pdf>

------
andrewvc
That's a sad story, and one that's too common in our industry. Mental health
issues in software are sadly under-discussed.

If you feel like making a difference I'd recommend donating to the Brain &
Behavior Research Foundation. They fund studies into mental health disorders,
an area of science that is still only vaguely understood.

<http://bbrfoundation.org/>

~~~
tsahyt
They're probably not just under-discussed in software but in any industry,
because they're under-discussed in society as a whole. I don't know about the
US but I believe mentally ill people often refuse to seek help even after they
recognized their condition simply because they realize they're "not normal",
afraid to be put in the drawer labeled with "crazy guys".

I think though that mental illnesses are a lot more common than we realize,
and to some degree society is actually breeding them. It's a very complex
topic though, so take that as an opinion, not as facts or anything.

~~~
rhizome
I think it makes more sense as just another means by which business consumes
workers. I know that sounds all profound and over-generalized crypto-Marxist,
but if you look back upon history I think you'll see a consumption metaphor
where business is basically treating workers as fungible, resisting healthcare
benefits and other quality-of-life exchanges. Margins are to be applied to
productivity, and the underling's health is not necessarily a primary concern
where they can be replaced.

------
bschlinker
I had the opportunity to meet Andre last summer while interning at Cisco. I
had no idea who he was at first, until I looked him up on LinkedIn and
"googled" his name.

Towards the end of my internship, I was there until 10 PM some days working on
code. Andre would see my cube lights on and come over to talk to me.
Considering how I was just working all alone when there that late, I really
appreciated the brief talks, as they provided me when an opportunity to think
about something other then the problems within my code for a few moments. He
would often share a few technical tips or an interesting story with me during
our conversations.

Although I didn't work with him much, it's disappointing to hear of his death.
It seems like most of the comments in here (on HN) are regarding mental
illness -- something which I never observed during the brief period of time
that I knew him. Regardless of his reason for taking his life, I'm glad I had
the opportunity to meet him and thank him for those brief conversations.

------
catastrophe
I haven't been formally diagnosed with bipolar, but I sure as heck have many
of the symptoms, including feeling elation and depression at the same time. I
also have chronic depression.

What does that mean? Nothing, except I completely see myself in Andre's
description. What am I doing about it? Exercising, reading affirmations,
trying to watch the diet (tough when broke) etc, etc.

But I read Andre's story and it makes me very sad.

------
steve8918
I had a good friend from high school who was brilliant. We were academic
rivals, but he definitely outworked everyone in the entire school. He got into
Duke and graduated with a double major in engineering and economics. He got
his law degree, and then his Master's in Law, and passed the bar exam in New
York and I think CA.

He was working in patent law in NYC for a few years, and then abruptly quit
and moved back home. He said he had some ideas on businesses, and it seemed
rational. He started venturing into religion, not for the sake of religion,
but to explore the concept of morality. He didn't have a Jewish background,
but he became very interested in Judaism because of it's views on morality,
and I even bought a book on the Talmud at his insistence, so that we could
talk about it. We would have pretty elaborate discussions on morality, etc,
over email. He was engaged to get married to a lovely girl, and things looked
fine.

Then, just before they got married, they abruptly cancelled their wedding. I
emailed him, and I asked him "How are things going? Enquiring minds want to
know!"

His only response was "Who are these enquiring minds that you are asking on
behalf of?" We exchanged a few emails after that, he accused me of being
immoral, and then I never heard from him again.

I contacted his fiancee, and apparently he was exhibiting signs of paranoid
schizophrenia. He had become increasingly paranoid over the last few years,
and become more and more disassociated with reality.

After that, he basically disappeared. He was always a bit paranoid about
leaving his mark on the Internet, and had multiple fake email addresses, so
trying to track him down was basically impossible.

Last year, after many years of no contact, I got a phone call from him,
presumably from a number that wasn't his, because he had recently realized
that in one of his discussions on his business over 10 years ago, he may have
gotten me to agree to terms that would have been personally unfavorable, and
he wanted to release me from all obligations from this agreement. I didn't
know what he was talking about, but we never did anything more than talk about
things, and his "businesses" never amounted to anything except talking. But I
agreed to be absolved from those obligations. Then asked how things were with
him, and he was extremely vagued, and then hung up on me.

It's very sad, because he was very brilliant, but it's clear he is mentally
ill. And there's nothing I can do about it. He has no siblings, and both his
parents are dead, so there's no one I can even contact.

It sounds similar to the case of Garzik in that I don't know if the concept of
"take care of yourself" is relevant. He probably didn't realize he was
mentally ill, if what the original emailer said was true about him being
paranoid. It probably would have been something the family would need to
pursue, but getting someone evaluated, etc, is hard, and as the emailer said,
it would only increase the negative feedback loop for Garzik, since he would
suspect everyone was out to get him, so it's a really tough problem to solve.

~~~
ditoa
In the UK it is quite easy (and free obviously, NHS and all that) to get
somebody seen by a mental health professional. I have suffered from several
mental health problems over the past 3½ years and the only reason I am here
today replying to your post is because of the fantastic support provided by
the NHS (and my family of course).

I feel so sad when I read stories like yours of friends and loved ones who
need help but don't get it :(

~~~
zdw
For the edification of all the people in the USA regarding current events,
this kind of a support system is what helps people who are having issues, and
would likely have prevented the tragedies that happened in Aurora or Tucson.

Not to say that other solutions could contribute to a more whole solution, but
fundamentally it's people with problems either becoming a danger to themselves
and others. And we have no support system for this.

~~~
ditoa
I wonder how much people spend on firmarms, learning how to use them,
ammunition, guns safes, etc. ?

I saw a news report that the number of people applying for a gun license in
Aurora after the shootings at the cinema went up quite a bit.

To me, as a non-American, that is quite scary. A guy kills and injures a lot
of people and the reaction of the public is not "how could we have prevented
this?" but "I need a gun so when this happens again I can kill the guy before
he kills as many people!"

Scary and quite sad :(

I do not know if James Holmes is suffering from mental health issues and if
they are the cause of his violent attack on the people of Aurora however I
would suspect mental health problems are involved somewhere and perhaps this
tragedy could have been averted had he had the proper help.

~~~
tectonic
I don't think a non-mentally-ill person could do what he did. Pretty much by
definition, he's mentally ill.

------
Chmouel
I don't know Andre but I know Jeff and he's the most nicest kernel developer
out there there is not many that are as much great listener as him

------
Monotoko
RIP Andre. This makes me think about the people I interact with every day, I
have friends who won't accept they even have a problem and believe everything
is fine. They seem unble to see it, how do you convince someone like that to
go to a therapist?

------
olliesaunders
_Perhaps it is the nature of intelligence itself, or just the nature of
computer science, but our profession seems to have a higher than average rate
of bipolar disorder and other mental illnesses._

Citation needed.

------
combataircraft
On the other words: All this software development shits are NOT for EARTH.
They are for the price competition of capitalist system and can only impact
prices in capitalist cities, nothing more than this. Don't put so much meaning
and don't think you're becoming a better person when you commit to a
repository.

~~~
slurgfest
That isn't true. Software is just a kind of tool. Some software is fart apps,
some is enterprise CRM but a lot is really useful in tangible ways that have
nothing directly to do with capitalism.

I also disagree with the implication that there is something inherently
unworthy with selling things on the free market. This is the way most people
on earth get most of the things they need and in many cases it is the most
efficient rationing mechanism practicable.

Beyond all this, it's good to do things you love. If someone really enjoys the
activity then it is none of my business to say they shouldn't because it is at
worst quite harmless.

~~~
combataircraft
study economics, read history, learn the truth my friend.

