
Uber banned from operating in Indian capital after rape accusation - cahitonur
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/08/us-india-rape-uber-idUSKBN0JM0CE20141208
======
RealGeek
Uber is not being banned just because of this rape incident. Uber did not
following Indian laws & Delhi transport regulations, and operated illegally
under the radar. Before this incident, Delhi Government was not aware about
how Uber operated. This incident prompted Indian authorities to investigate
the operations of Uber.

Uber's stance is that we are not a taxi company, we are an app company; so we
do not need to follow transportation laws.

Uber is so secretive in India that the only way users can contact Uber is
through Twitter. They don't provide any phone number, email or address.
Moreover, Delhi police had to struggle to get in touch with Uber. They called
an Uber cab using the App, and asked the driver to take them to Uber's office.
When they reached office, it was almost empty. There was nobody who had any
information about what is going on.

Uber claims they have a driver screening process, but it seems they skip
through the due diligence process in India to save few bucks.

[https://www.uber.com/safety](https://www.uber.com/safety)

"Uber is committed to connecting you to the safest ride on the road"

Driver Screening:

[http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening](http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening)

which includes:

Criteria for drivers to pass through Uber’s screening, going back seven years:

\- No DUI or other drug related driving violations or severe infractions*

\- No Hit and Runs

\- No fatal accidents

\- No history of reckless driving

\- No violent crimes

\- _No sexual offenses_

\- No gun related violations

\- No resisting/evading arrest

\- No driving without insurance or suspended license charge in the past 3
years

Unfortunately, Uber does not perform this due diligence while recruiting
drivers in India. The alleged driver had previously served 7 months in prison
for rape charges, that didn't stop Uber from recruiting him.

~~~
GrinningFool
_No sexual offenses_

From the article: "Uber, which had employed the driver even though he had been
arrested on allegations of sexual assault three years ago"

THe implication there is that he had not been convicted of any offense - which
means no sexual offense was [in the eyes of the law...] committed.

I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand yeah, he was arrested for it and
convicted or not, that's probably a risk Uber shouldn't be taking.

The other side of that an accusation or suspicion isn't a reasonable basis on
which to ruin someone's employability.

~~~
awinder
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/10/delhi-rape-one-
conv...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/10/delhi-rape-one-
conviction-706-cases-2012_n_4419374.html)

Of 706 reported rape cases, 1 lead to an actual conviction. So you have an
under-reported category of crime which is irregularly prosecuted. There's
obvious ethical issues with denying jobs to people based on accusation rather
than conviction, but in a society with a broken justice system surrounding
that, there's ethical dilemmas no matter how you slice it. There's also a
serious question about how you rate the ethical utility of someone not being
able to get a job in a specific area, versus possible endangerment of
someone's life.

~~~
pc86
> _there 's ethical dilemmas no matter how you slice it_

You're exactly right. So the question becomes, "Is it better to disqualify
applicants based on accusation alone, knowing that you'll disqualify some
number of innocent people, or is it better to screen on convictions alone,
knowing that you could possibly not screen out some guilty folks you otherwise
would?"

~~~
rmc
You can go better than "accusation". Anyone could accuse anyone of anything.
But you could set the bar in the middle with "arrested", which is half way
between "accusation" and "conviction".

~~~
fragsworth
That's not really in the middle. The only difference between "accused" and
"arrested" is that the accuser told the police.

~~~
rmc
Yes the accuser told the police, _and the police thought there was suffecient
reason to arrest the accused_. That's the important difference. Sometimes the
police are told, and they interview the accused and don't arrest them.
Sometimes they do. The police are (in theory) supposed to have standards for
who they arrest.

------
ignoramous
I've said it elsewhere too [0], and I say it again... There's no doubt that
Uber is on a free ride in India.

If they can bully their way in the US, and not care about law and regulations
there, then they have absolutely nothing to worry about in India. The law
enforcement is weak, to say the least.

* Uber's customer service is a disgrace. I've tried contacting them 4 times for different issues ranging from bugs in their app to getting incorrectly charged for toll fees. Never got a response, despite countless followups.

* They do NOT really hire the drivers... they are in fact hiring "companies" that employs the drivers. Once I had someone else pick me up. The driver was using someone else's phone and cab that was registered to Uber. He told me the "Uber" driver was on a leave, and that he was deputizing on-behalf of him. And that he didn't really work for Uber, but for the "owner of the car" I could have cancelled the ride, but then Uber would have charged me 150 Rupees ($3) cancellation fee. And I didn't want to do anything with Uber's customer service, and I was kind of certain that I wouldn't get my money back.

* They're a faceless organization and that's unacceptable for something that involves physical contact with real strangers.

* They have their priorities mixed up. Instead of focusing on their "safety claims" (which they pitch as a distinguish-er) they are relentlessly focused on achieving the network affect that'd propel their business.

I'm firmly in the camp that believes that Uber used some of the funding $$$ in
bribing the officials here to accelerate their growth (in terms of number of
cities they operate in) in this country without any review.

The trajectory with Uber is very similar to how many a telecom providers made
a killing during the telecom-boom in India. The government is set to have lost
upto INR 300,000,000,000 [1] when a corrupt minister sold air-waves for
cheaper prices.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708545](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708545)
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2G_spectrum_scam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2G_spectrum_scam)

~~~
jessaustin
How do you pay Uber in India? Did you make a deposit, or is this on a credit
card? I don't know the credit card rules in India, but in USA there's no way I
would have ended up paying Uber's self-serving "fine".

~~~
adhipg
You could pay with a normal credit card (like everywhere else) up to the 1st
of Dec.

Reserve Bank of India has a rule about all CC transactions needing 2FA and
Uber wasn't complying with it. They recently shifted to a prepaid wallet
mechanism to do payments.

There's very little awareness around the fact that you can dispute credit-card
transactions in India.

------
RyanMcGreal
Watching the Uber saga unfold has been a fascinating time-lapse into how and
why industries become regulated in the first place. It's fashionable to decry
calcified organizations that refuse to adapt to change, but we regulate
industries in response to market failures, and Uber's approach has been to
toss out the the baby with the bathwater.

~~~
mrschwabe
Or another point of view is that this 'saga' has been caused by a political
vendetta against Uber - a common problem for startups like Uber and Tesla who
are attempting to scale and share their innovations with the world.

~~~
bluishgreen
I see what you did there, mentioning uber and tesla in the same sentence.

------
plinkplonk
Fwiw the story is still unfolding. Some parts of the media are reporting that
the driver had a "character certificate" from an Assistant Police
Commissioner. It is unclear (as of writing this) how legally valid (or even
genuine) that is. Could be photoshopped for all we know. (the media can be
quite incompetent and report rumors as truth and vice versa)

Fwiw [http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Delhi-
police-h...](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Delhi-police-had-
issued-character-certificate-to-Uber-cab-driver-in-
August/articleshow/45412700.cms)

This is in someways the direct opposite of what the media was reporting so
far. It will all shake out in the coming days/weeks.

Meanwhile Uber remains banned in Delhi (imo a good thing. The management is
pretty scummy and they and Uber's operating procedures could use some
sunlight). The government and the police will come under massive media
scrutiny (imo, even better.)

It is now a full fledged media circus here, with politicians
posturing,citizens screaming, parties of different ideologies protesting etc.
Elections are due in Delhi in February, and safety (or lack of it) for women
in Delhi is an issue that voters pay attention to, so the above is all par for
the course. Again,just fwiw.

~~~
RealGeek
Delhi police is now saying that the certificate is forged.

------
suprgeek
Their troubles in India may get bigger: The Indian Govt. is thinking about
banning them all across India [1]

Can't come soon enough for a company that heavily advertised itself as being
the Safer option in India and conveniently actually skipped the background
verification part of the process. Then the asshat CEO put the entire blame on
the "System" in a finger pointing blog post.

"Move fast and Break things" Indeed.

[1] [http://indianexpress.com/article/india/crime/delhi-rape-
govt...](http://indianexpress.com/article/india/crime/delhi-rape-govt-mulls-
banning-uber-cab-services-across-india/)

~~~
tomjen3
Not an Indian, but isn't mostly a matter of whom you have to bribe and how
much?

~~~
ignoramous
Exactly. Threatening to ban Uber can mean only one thing-- The law-makers need
a fund raiser too-- now that Uber is a $40 billion company.

------
dreamweapon
From the very beginning, Uber has been fiercely proud of its eschewance of
local regulations; and it's business model has always been, in a nutshell,
about maximizing profit while offloading risk. So while I have no doubt that
Travis is genuinely horrified by what happened, he shouldn't be in the least
bit surprised, either.

------
snlacks
So, I'm not a Uber fan, but I get the feeling this is India deflecting a
couple of other underlying issues and placing blame.

Sooner or later they have to face the issue head on, because scapegoating gets
old.

~~~
TheHypnotist
Agreed. It's also not as if these sexual assault cases are not well documented
already. I wonder what Uber will say about this.

~~~
atonse
So what then, an Uber customer would have to just say "yeah ok rapes happen so
let me keep taking Uber"?

The point is, Uber is claiming to be better than cabbies in that they screen
drivers, etc. Clearly they aren't doing anything of the sort. So they are as
unsafe as taking any other cab.

~~~
snlacks
I did not say that Uber doesn't have issues to address, I said that the Indian
government has underlying issues, and can't scapegoat forever.

Not every situation in life has clear sides of "good guys" and "bad guys" or
who's "to blame." Cause is a moving bar, and has different value depending
what we are talking about causing.

Uber causes it's passengers to be in danger by not ensuring the people behind
the wheel.

India on the other hand has a history of not punishing rapists. The guy gets
acquitted of rape, because rape is too hard to prove under Indian law and
because the juries are biased. edit: updated spelling

~~~
atonse
I'm not arguing about the scapegoating or anything. I'm just saying that Uber
markets itself as "we don't hire those creeps" \- but it sounds like they ARE
hiring those creeps. So what's the point of using Uber in Delhi when you are
as unsafe as you would be in a regular taxicab?

What's the value proposition of Uber in that case? Just the convenience of
using the app?

~~~
snlacks
I don't like Uber, I do like the idea of competition.

I think the draw is upfront pricing? But I don't know, I've horror stories
about that too.

------
Marazan
I am shocked, shocked that an unlicensed taxi firm has problems with its
drivers.

~~~
001sky
Rumor has it the public transportation in India is kinds unsafe too.

------
jessaustin
It seems like every time I get tempted to have an ounce of sympathy for Uber,
something like this comes up to disabuse me of that.

This morning's sympathy was inspired by local government shenanigans. They had
some city-manager jackhole on the radio explaining that they had informed Uber
back in July that they would be considering Uber's business, and furthermore
they now plan to do that consideration at the February city council meeting.
Shameless!

------
tn13
Few points worth noting

\- Taxi business is heavily regulated in India and anything like Uber is
likely to be illegal.

\- India does not have any consolidated crime database. Background
verification generally means asking the person to get a certificate from local
police station. (Which anyone can get by paying a bribe).

I am surprised that Uber was actually operating in India. Clearly they were
staying under the radar and as usual the government officials were too
incompetent to understand what Uber is.

I think in this case Uber is clearly liable for a civil suite and must
compensate the victim for lack of due diligence and fraud.

------
sriramk
I think Uber is being unfairly maligned here - too long for a comment, long
piece at [https://medium.com/@sriramk/in-defense-of-uber-in-
india-f81c...](https://medium.com/@sriramk/in-defense-of-uber-in-
india-f81c4c6267f2).

tldr: Uber just can't do the same checks it does in the US in other parts of
the world which don't have records. And even though it did actually get the
right certificate from the cops in this case, they should have thought of
doing more.

~~~
anigbrowl
Then the logical strategy is not to operate in a market where your brand is at
severe risk of being tarnished.

~~~
simplekoala
or don't accept status quo. Improve the current system by 10X and solve _real_
problems and position yourself as a great company.

------
known
Uber failed to bribe appropriate Indian politicians through relevant channels.
[http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-
among-...](http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-most-
corrupt-while-doing-business-abroad.htm)

------
known
Rape fear keeps US students out of India: Nancy Powell

[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rape-fear-keeps-
US-...](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rape-fear-keeps-US-students-
out-of-India-Nancy-Powell/articleshow/26059607.cms)

------
krisgenre
This combined with their app's shady activities (
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8660336](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8660336)
), it does seem like a very good idea to stop using it.

~~~
makeramen
If you read any of the technical analysis, those claims are clearly unfounded
and the hacker doesn't even understand how REST works:
[http://thenextweb.com/apps/2014/11/27/ubers-app-malware-
desp...](http://thenextweb.com/apps/2014/11/27/ubers-app-malware-despite-may-
read/)

As an Android developer, the root and vulnerability reporting behavior is
pretty standard for bug tracking, and in Uber's case fraud prevention as well.

~~~
krisgenre
Thanks for pointing it out. I should make a mental note of not to just go by
the top comments.

------
totony
If the man was aquitted, why is background check even mentionned? You can't
refuse someone because he was _accused_ of something, right? That'd be very
discriminatory

~~~
JoeAltmaier
You can actually hire (or not hire) anyone you want. Background checks can
find all sorts of things, most of which can be used against you. Only a few
classes are protected, and 'accused of crime' isn't one of them.

~~~
totony
I don't know specifics about Indian law, but in Canada, any "personal
caracteristic" (varies on a province basis) is protected under the charter.
This is defined as "individual characteristics that are permanent or difficult
to change, such as race, colour, sex, ethnic origin or disability."*.
Accusation record seems to fit that description.

Therefore, it would be illegal for someone to refuse someone because of this.

Source: [http://www.cdpdj.qc.ca/en/pages/lexique.aspx#personal-
charac...](http://www.cdpdj.qc.ca/en/pages/lexique.aspx#personal-
characteristic)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I wonder if 'difficult to change' meant involuntary, like something you were
born with. Your criminal record is by definition voluntary. You did something;
it was recorded.

------
simplekoala
Hmmm..shouldn't Uber banned in whole of India instead of just Delhi, till the
Govt of India figures out how to allow Uber to operate with better safety
measures.

------
tn13
Banned is simply not acceptable. They should also be charged for fraud, making
false promises about their services to their customers which got one lady
raped.

------
Eleutheria
Let me see...

If I buy a gun and shoot you, the government will ban gun manufacturers?

If I buy a baseball bat and smash your skull, the govt will ban all sports?

If I buy a potato and stick it in your throat and you die, the govt will ban
agriculture?

If I offer you a ride (free or for a fee) and then decide to rape you and bury
you in a forest, the govt will ban auto makers?

How does that make sense?

~~~
chaosmonkey
If the gun manufacturer claimed that they have verified that guns don't kill.

[http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening](http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening)

------
markogrady
Ive recently been in Cape Town and people recommended using Uber because you
can see the feed back info about the driver and the official cabs were quite
dodgy.

~~~
bdcravens
Often the driver is someone other than the official Uber driver, so you lose
that advantage.

------
hero454545
This article is 5 hours old, has 314 points is one rank behind an article
that's six hours hold with 23 points right now. HN users certainly love to
flag anything that's critical of Uber.

------
auxon0
So I guess they're going to ban public transportation, restaurants, public
places, etc... as well, due to all the rape happening there.

------
austenallred
This is really weird... I have refreshed a couple times and watched some anti-
uber comments appear

~~~
austenallred
Shoot, meant to say disappear

------
n0body
i'm not sure why it's Uber's fault. in the uk, Uber drivers are all registered
taxi drivers, because of regulations. it's not Uber's fault that the indian
market is not as strictly regulated, and that one of their drivers did this.

Not that i'm saying it's ok, it's not. but uber seems to be catching a lot of
flak for things they haven't done. sure they probably could have done more to
prevent it, but so could the government.

companies always tend to the minimum required by law, it's cheaper that way

and the amount of rape happening in india is crazy, the government needs to do
something about that, something more than blaming uber. what's the point in
the state if it can't even protect it's people?

~~~
RealGeek
Uber hired drivers in India who does not even have a valid Delhi Transport
commercial driver license required for all cab drivers in Delhi.

Edit:

> and the amount of rape happening in india is crazy, the government needs to
> do something about that, something more than blaming uber.

Do you know that more women are raped every year in UK & US than in India? You
hear a lot more about rapes in India because Indians are more outraged towards
rape than Americans & British.

Rate per 100,000 population:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_statist...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_statistics_by_country)

United Kingdom (England and Wales): 28.8

United States of America : 27.3

According to some surveys, 20% to 25% girls on American colleges campuses
suffer sexual assault.

~~~
ceejayoz
> Do you know that more women are raped every year in UK & US than in India?

Bullshit. Your link states "does not include cases of rape which go
unreported, which are not recorded, and does not account for differing
definitions between countries".

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/07...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/07/indias-
rape-problem-is-also-a-police-problem/)

> Three-fourths of the perpetrators of India's 24,206 rapes in 2011 are still
> at large, and that's not even including the rapes that go unreported, which
> are thought to be the majority of cases. The women and girls who do report
> being raped can sometimes face antipathy or outright hostility from police.

~~~
_nedR
Lets take statistics for a type of crime that does almost always get reported.

Homicide rate in US : 4.7 per 100,000

Homicide rate in India : 3.5 per 100,000

Most of the world's perception of rape in India is based exclusively on
foreign media coverage of the issue which presents a heavily skewed image
compared to reality on the ground. Once the media settles on a popular
narrative ("India is unsafe for women") they keep reporting every incident
that reinforces that narrative. Fact of the matter is India has relatively low
rates of crime (especially considering the poverty and inequality).

~~~
ceejayoz
Hard to say how accurate a comparision that is.

[http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-officially-
under...](http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-officially-undercounts-
all-crimes-including-rape/article5121114.ece)

> The National Crime Records Bureau, India’s official source of crime data, is
> systematically undercounting virtually every crime in India on account of a
> statistical shortcoming, The Hindu has learnt.

[http://newint.org/blog/majority/2012/02/07/dowry-deaths-
in-i...](http://newint.org/blog/majority/2012/02/07/dowry-deaths-in-india/)

> For every dowry death reported, there are dozens that go unreported. Of the
> 8,391 reported cases in 2010, although 93.2 per cent were charge-sheeted,
> the conviction rate was a miserable 33.6 per cent. The murderers and their
> families get away with it. What’s worse, they go scot free and bring back
> another bride.

I'd be interested in seeing murder rates for rural versus city areas. I know
the tribal areas of Pakistan set up their own alternative courts, and wouldn't
be surprised if similar things happened in rural India.

