
Wisdom from Psychopaths? - cpdean
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wisdom-from-psychopaths
======
dkarl
I was expecting to read an article about understanding human nature without
morality and respect clouding your judgment. Instead I read that psychopaths
are clever at thinking up nefarious schemes to get what they want. I don't buy
it as "wisdom." Anyone can think of evil ways to get what they want, as long
as the situation is hypothetical. Just yesterday I posted a comment describing
how if I ran a dating site I would screw over my customers by giving them the
exact opposite of what was good for them because it would be more profitable
for me [1]. Most people have fantasized about violence from time to time, and
half the internet seems to advocate being a psychopath as the best way to get
laid. It's the reality of a situation that stops people from being as "wise"
as a psychopath, and, I would argue, there's no loss, because in a practical
situation there's no point in seeing solutions that you won't execute in real
life. Did the author's friends use the asbestos solution? I think not. It
would be awkward to explain to friends, they would have moral scruples, and it
might very well be illegal. If a non-psychopath and a psychopath both limit
their imaginations to plausible options, the psychopath isn't any more wise
for seeing options the non-psychopath doesn't.

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5015068>

~~~
dmor
This was the problem I had with the article as well. It fails to point out, in
conclusion, that these people are committed for life because they are
extremely dangerous - and not just in theory, but because they have taken
actions to achieve goals that have had damaging and terrifying outcomes in the
real world. Despite being 5 pages long, the article feels unfinished - maybe
that is the author's idea of a teaser for a book, but for me as a reader it
felt like a waste of time.

~~~
bengillies
Well it states what Broadmoor is and says that it contains some of the most
dangerous people in the country (and mentions the casual references to
physical violence a couple of times). Does that not adequately describe how
dangerous these people can be? It seemed fairly obvious to me at least.

It also points out that there's such a thing as going too far and that merely
learning/using some of the techniques that psychopaths tend to exhibit (in a
mild form) is potentially useful. It doesn't seem (to me at least) that he's
directly advocating pretending to be a council inspector/whatever to kick
people out of their home.

------
barry-cotter
The following review article by gwern gives a _much_ better overview of
psychopathy.

<http://lesswrong.com/lw/fzy/notes_on_psychopathy/>

If the Scientific American article is representative of the book the world
would probably have been better off had it never been written. For psychopaths
other people are means, not ends. If wrecking your life will get them a more
pleasant afternoon with no/small chance of danger to themselves they'll do it.

Psychopaths are indeed charming, ruthless and focused. They are charming
because they got more practice at lying, cheating and stealing before they
were fifteen than most get by the time they turn thirty. Vastly diminished
anxiety helps too.

They are ruthless because to them other people are objects. You relate
emotionally more like a dog than like a psychopath.

And mostly they are not focused on any long term goal. Their focus is very
much on the now. They rarely have any long term goals or projects and if they
do, remember, people are things. White collar or professional psychopaths may
not go to prison for assault but they will lie, cheat and steal their way to
any goals they may have.

For further reading on psychopathy read anything by Rober D. Hare, the dean of
the field. I can recommend _Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths go to Work_

~~~
theorique
_You relate emotionally more like a dog than like a psychopath._

I don't think I understand what you mean here. What do you mean by this?

~~~
barry-cotter
Have you ever felt guilt, love or anxiety? Dogs do, psychopaths don't.

~~~
theorique
Ah, makes sense. I see what you mean now.

------
Xcelerate
I find psychopaths incredibly interesting. Probably because I recognize that I
am about the furthest thing from one. I incessantly worry about the future and
the consequences of what I'm currently doing. I always wonder what people are
thinking, what they are thinking about others, and what they are thinking
about me. It takes me 50 minutes to type a short email because I'm constantly
playing out the scenarios of how it comes across to others in my mind. In
fact, I'd say I edit almost all the posts I make on HN multiple times after
I've posted them. And finally, I have a tendency to become really sad upon
hearing sad news. I avoid the news for this reason. And although I love
reading about startups, I could never imagine myself leaving a secure, stable
job unless I had very high confidence that my startup would succeed.

This sort of thinking has obvious negative drawbacks. Social interaction
becomes a chore because you think you're never going to come across
positively, so why interact at all?

I've always wished that for just a day, I could have a psychopathic
personality -- just to see how things work out differently. (Realize that
psychopathy is not the same thing as evil or immoral by the way).

~~~
hayksaakian
is there a term for the opposite of psychopaths? why is intense concern for
what others think of you and how you react considered normal?

~~~
DanBC
It's hard to talk about opposite.

Some people with borderline personality disorder have a hyperactive amygdala -
this means they're hyper aware of perceived risk and what people think about
them, and what they think about themselves.

BPD has a high correlation with various eating disorders and with attachment
problems.

Sometimes people with BPD can be involved in horrific deliberate self
mutilation, but without wanting to die at that point.

I guess that comes quite close?

------
sethg
As I understand it, psychopathic traits are very good for getting what you
want _in the short term_. If this author’s interview subjects had appreciated
the _long-term_ consequences of their antisocial behavior, they wouldn’t be
behind bars.

~~~
michaelochurch
Effective psychopaths never end up behind bars. They climb the corporate
ladder. I've seen them in action and, as bad as they are for the companies
they work in, you can't come away from seeing one in action without thinking,
"Damn, he's good".

The violent ones are the lower class of psychopaths, and most prisoners aren't
psychopaths. The smarter, high-class psychopaths are the corporate back-
stabbers. They learn how to "manage up" because the ROI is so high.

~~~
berntb
>>most prisoners aren't psychopaths

" _In a typical prison population, about 20 percent of the inmates satisfy the
Hare definition of a psychopath, but they are responsible for over half of all
violent crime._ "

<http://www.hare.org/links/saturday.html>

Your claim is true but it is an oversimplification. There is at least a factor
of ten over representation, since 1-2% of the total population are
psychopaths.

Edit: Considering the large incarceration rates in the USA (more than 1% of
the adult population), 10-20% of the total number of psychopaths should be in
prison there... Oh my!

Edit 2: Consider 50% of all violent crime committed by 1-2% of the
population... Everything else pales.

~~~
michaelochurch
_Your claim is true but it is an oversimplification. There is at least a
factor of ten over representation, since 1-2% of the total population are
psychopaths._

Many HN posters (including myself) have a genetic trait that makes them about
10 times as likely to commit a violent crime: the Y chromosome.

------
Udo
We already idolize psychopaths. Ruthless CEO types and people who generate
"success" by whatever means. This article goes one step further. Its author
suggests that actually more of _that_ is needed in today's society and sets
out to interview psychopaths on how they solve problems. Turns out, they do it
by employing deception and (sometimes non-physical) violence.

Even forgetting for a moment that we're actually soliciting murderers and
rapists for advice on social situations, am I really the only one who has a
problem with this? Is _more_ callousness, more dishonesty, and more
manipulation really what's missing from our society?

------
nnq
How would the _psychopath's lack of empathy_ differ from the _autistic /
asperger's lack of emapthy_?

It reminded me of the axis of hypo-mentalist <\--> hyper-mentalism from here
<http://edge.org/conversation/the-imprinted-brain-theory> (second figure,
ignoring the genetics parts for this discussion) ...but I don't know where
would autism and psychopathy would relate and differ. They are certainly very
very different things, but I can't think of a simple conceptaul framework that
would show their similarities and differences.

~~~
jos3000
This is a very naive generalisation, but, as far as I understand, psychopaths
can be very good at assessing other people's mental state, but do not /feel/
it like most people do. People on the autistic spectrum find it very difficult
to recognise what other people are feeling.

~~~
theorique
That's a good and correct way of explaining it in a few words. Of course,
there is nuance, but it gets the point across.

Psychopaths _observe_ but don't _feel_ or _care_.

Autistics are handicapped in their observations, although they may feel and/or
care.

~~~
Zenst
Very true as autisim which aspergers is part of spectrum wise are classified
as learning disabilities and with that mean that the capacity to empathise is
there, just not as quick at learning those aspects. A psycopath on the other
hand can clearly see those connections and empathise, its just that they don't
care too and do not see why they should. Think of it as comparing somebody
with a broken leg who finds it hard to walk in contrast to somebody who has
fully working legs but sees no point in walking.

~~~
nnq
the broken leg and walking analogy is quite cool!

------
kqr2
There was a recent NPR interview with the author of this book.

<http://m.ttbook.org/book/kevin-dutton-wisdom-psychopaths>

------
unoti
This is an excellent and compelling book about psychopaths:
[http://www.amazon.com/Without-Conscience-Disturbing-World-
Ps...](http://www.amazon.com/Without-Conscience-Disturbing-World-
Psychopaths/dp/1572304510)

------
chmike
This raise the question if the best entrepreneurs should be psychopaths.
Investors seam to favor the psychopath personality characteristics (taking
risks, focus, bent rules to reach goal = hack the system, etc.).

It also seam that people with moderated psychopathy might be socially and
professionally advantaged and might thus, in the long term, become the
dominant humans and the future product or our on going evolution process.

~~~
gadders
New YCombinator Question: Tell us about a time you have tortured a pet/started
a fire?

:-)

------
RyanMcGreal
My parents used to have a saying: "He was so charming he could tell you to go
to hell so you were looking forward to the trip."

------
Zenst
A very nice read and if anything too short, want to read more.

The ability to abstract oneself from the problem in a way that enables you to
think about the problem is certainly something many would wish to be able to
do better in at least one area in there lives. I find it easy to handle most
things but anything personal, well I just end up like most and think about
every negative permuation more than resolving the issue.

Though in a sence it is the ability to regret things that too me is the
seperation that divides most.

I often say if 51% of the population were psycopaths then they would not be
psycopaths but normals and the other 49% would be the exceptions and outcasts
in many ways.

Ironicly in todays society that is against drugs and can't cope with somebody
saying I've had a good life, can it end now we seem too impose the majority
will upon them. Indeed if you said I want to die to a doctor and even
explained why, many would probably push you to drugs that remove the emotional
negatives and or section you in a mental hospital until you towed the line if
I want to live even if the World is utterly insane.

Many a wise word is said by what people lable as `mental` patients and with
that it is good to see the lable removed and the flash laid upon the bones so
to speak with regards to psycopathic traits. When you break it down and look
at various jobs and roles in society then you can certainly see that it is a
set of skills most would envy. Then only negative is the big gotcha of
impossing your will upon others to the detrement of there quality of life.
That all said many bankers and financers happily ruin peoples lives in a more
agonising way than any mental of phsical torture as we know it and with that
have defined legaly allowed means to do what is in effect psycopathic traits.
When a bank reposses a house do they send in councelors and break the news
over a hot beverage, no they do it in a letter and with that are about as cold
as any psycopath could ever come up with.

But we are talking about psycopaths who have crossed a legal moral line like
murdering somebody and getting caught. Yet the same actions can be done in far
more legal and less liable ways and means if you take the right approach. I'm
sure there are psycopaths who have done such things and others who just maybe
work in jobs like banks or important positions which enable them a more fine
control upon there enviroment too effect others in more subtle indirect ways.
After all for those of us who think about what can go wrong and waste that 90%
of the time worrying about the unhappened, maybe that in itself is used to out
own detrement if leveridged by somebody mindful of such weakness's.

After all not all psycopaths are criminals, we as society have just labeled
them by default and with that there exist alot of predispositions that society
places as a collective upon others and in many ways when you apply labels and
blanket definitions and sterotyping then isn't that how racisism started.

So society could learn and should learn from them, after all everybody has
something unique about them and with that you can learn something from every
single person on this planet a impossible task but certainly one that should
not be dismissed in a way that you ignore by default whole
area's/groups/types/variations. That is probably the first leason you can
learn and with that the most important one in my book.

~~~
chii
> When a bank reposses a house do they send in councelors and break the news
> over a hot beverage, no they do it in a letter and with that are about as
> cold as any psycopath could ever come up with.

interesting that you mention this, because a "bank", or in general, a
corporation can be considered a psychopath. If you watch the documentary "The
Corporation" (freely available on thepiratebay), it shows you the criterias
that they used to measure a corporation that leads to this conclusion. But
number 1 cause is the requirement of a corporation to make as much money for
its shareholder as possible, and the CEO/chair/president/etc is legally bound
to do this.

~~~
mitchty
The myth that a company only has a goal to make money for its shareholders is
wrong. Or to do only what they desire for that matter.

[http://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-
capitalism/ar...](http://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-
capitalism/ar/1)

I'll extract the money quote:

Oddly, no previous management research has looked at what the legal literature
says about the topic, so we conducted a systematic analysis of a century’s
worth of legal theory and precedent. It turns out that the law provides a
surprisingly clear answer: Shareholders do not own the corporation, which is
an autonomous legal person. What’s more, when directors go against shareholder
wishes—even when a loss in value is documented—courts side with directors the
vast majority of the time. Shareholders seem to get this. They’ve tried to
unseat directors through lawsuits just 24 times in large corporations over the
past 20 years; they’ve succeeded only eight times. In short, directors are to
a great extent autonomous.

------
drpgq
Seems like one of the psychopaths figured out strategies from Neil Strauss'
the game all by himself.

~~~
illuminate
Or you're missing a connection between the two.

------
dschiptsov
Is it from Cosmopolitan or Maxim? GQ?

------
Tichy
It almost sounds as if she wants to be killed (stuff like that has happened
before, prisoners taking their therapists hostage, for example). What a silly
idea, sorry.

