
EFF Applauds Amazon for Pushing Back on Request for Echo Data - DiabloD3
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/eff-applauds-amazon-pushing-back-request-echo-data
======
M_Grey
The EFF must feel totally hopeless at this point. People are _buying_
microphones with internet connections and sticking them in their homes.
They're making the _choice_ to buy "smart" IoT shit that spies on them.
They're at a point of defending a major company selling that stuff, because
they didn't instantly roll over when approached by law enforcement.

It's like... PETA complimenting a butcher on a clean kill. I don't blame them
though... who knew the great battle over privacy would be lost before it even
started, because people want their toaster to go online?

~~~
kardos
> who knew the great battle over privacy would be lost before it even started,
> because people want their toaster to go online?

I really despise this sentiment, it's quite defeatist and comes across as the
"resistance is futile" talking point from the "privacy is dead" camp

What we need is some kind of spousal privilege [1] or secrecy of
correspondence [2] for the internet age, ie, for IoT things. Surreptitious
recordings from phones, messaging apps, "amazon echo"s, xbone cameras, etc,
should be impermissible in court (or some variation on this theme). We struck
a balance in the past, we can do it again.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spousal_privilege](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spousal_privilege)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secrecy_of_correspondence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secrecy_of_correspondence)

~~~
M_Grey
It's easy to accuse people of "defeatism", or "alarmism", when really you just
don't like the simple truth. Your idea is nice, but unless you're capable of
producing a workable roadmap and seeing it enacted, who really cares? Everyone
has "good ideas" and many people have good intentions, but if you can't
produce results that differ from the next guy it just doesn't matter.

Unless you're Churchill rallying a nation to fight, you're in no position to
accuse anyone of defeatism for pointing out the reality we live in.

~~~
kardos
My point was more along the lines of "lets stop repeating the 'give up'
mantra" and move forward to "lets explore how we might rectify the situation".
But alas you are also right, I did not present a shovel ready legal pathway to
success.

~~~
M_Grey
I'm not suggesting that anyone give up, I was suggesting that the EFF must
feel despair in the context of their efforts. I would argue that there is more
need than ever to fight, but that fight hasn't _really_ materialized yet.
Outside of places like HN, so few people appreciate that there even is a
fight, and fewer care.

That may change, but until it does, the best you can do is educate people.

------
gkoberger
While I'm glad Amazon pushed back, it did set some precedents and isn't
exactly a victory.

They eventually handed over the data (at the owner's consent), which does two
things: 1) confirms they do have data and the ability to turn it over 2) makes
anyone who doesn't hand over the data seems guilty (hey, if you have nothing
to hide...)

Privacy is eroded one step at a time.

~~~
Xorlev
> 1) confirms they do have data and the ability to turn it over

Not necessarily. We don't know what they handed over. For all we know right
now, it literally could be a single request to start a timer or check the
weather.

The use of the data seems dubious assuming that Alexa has to hear the trigger
word before sending data to Amazon. Judging by the traffic on my network, I'd
say that's the case. I don't see a persistent stream coming from my Alexa
device beyond periodic pings.

~~~
M_Grey
Keep in mind that a key piece of evidence in the murder case in question is a
single datapoint from his smart water-meter.

"Why did you use 140 gallons of water around 2AM? Long shower bud?"

~~~
icebraining
How is it not relevant whether someone used a lot of water after the homeowner
was dead?

~~~
M_Grey
_According to police records, a city utility billing and collections manager
told detectives that, on the night of Collins 's death, 140 gallons of water
were used at Bates's home between 1 and 3 a.m., an amount of water usage that
exceeded all other periods there since October 2013.

“In comparison, while all four [men] were together earlier that evening, they
never used more than 10 gallons of water in an hour,” police reports said.
“The amount of water used between 0100-0300 hours was consistent with spraying
down the back patio area, which may have resulted in the wet concrete patterns
observed on the morning of November 22nd.”

The utility department's source? Each home in Bentonville was on a smart
meter, police were told, to measure and record the exact consumption of
electricity and water every hour._ -Washington Post

The homeowner wasn't the one who died.

------
codedokode
Would not it be better if Amazon didn't keep those data at all and maybe even
made sound recognition on a client?

------
tannhaeuser
I absolutely support EFF, but it must be said that privacy and
decentralization can be in conflict with Free software. Namely, by flooding
the world with GPL and liberally-licensed web software, it becomes a commodity
item, making "the cloud" possible in the first place, and enslaving people.

~~~
kardos
Ehh, not really, the cloud is similarly possible without free software. Indeed
much of the big name cloud provider's backend software would be in-house
anyway. Windows VMs exist too.

I guess your point is closer to 'free software makes the cloud cheaper', which
in turn makes it easier to ensnare people..

