
Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday - petethomas
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-italy-strike/workers-at-amazons-main-italian-site-to-hold-first-strike-on-black-friday-idUSKBN1DN1DS
======
nindalf
> The company said salaries paid to its workers were among the highest in the
> logistic sector and that it also provided some benefits such as private
> medical insurance or money to pay for training programs.

Not a criticism of either Amazon or the unions but I would really appreciate
it if news sources would verify these claims one way or another. Obviously as
a wire service, that may not be Reuters' job but whether Amazon's claim here
is true or not makes a massive difference to what I glean from the article.

~~~
hackermailman
I talk to workers here in Canada the starting salaries and benefits are about
average, definitely not 'highest in the sector' or any such nonsense though
maybe in Europe they are in order to attract employees. Here they are expected
to do 10-12hr overtime shifts every day, and work as hard as possible without
breaks to make bonuses which are inconsistent, and because there's no union
representation harassment galore goes on with managers phoning you at home all
hours to answer non-critical questions that could have waited until your next
shift.

This old Gawker article accurately describes the warehouse conditions
[http://gawker.com/inside-an-amazon-warehouse-the-
relentless-...](http://gawker.com/inside-an-amazon-warehouse-the-relentless-
need-to-mak-1780800336)

~~~
swypych
“Wire service”?

~~~
jacobolus
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_agency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_agency)

------
brndnmtthws
Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD
campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle
class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're
curious about this).

~~~
chimeracoder
> The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the
> erosion of middle class wages

It's way more complicated than that, and it can't simply be dismissed as a
"FUD campaign". Union members are actually disproportionately likely to
_support_ things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it
(more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not
to.

Similarly, union membership rates have dropped even in states that have very
union-friendly laws (like New York and Massachusetts), and unions are having
less and less success at the polls, meaning non-unionized workers are
rejecting the proposals to unionize their workforces (UAW elections in
particular - AFL-CIO elections to a lesser extent).

This pattern isn't as simple to dismiss as "anti-union FUD", especially since
it's seen among people who are _already_ union members in closed shops.

The reasons for this have to do with the history of unionization of closed
shops, and the regional economic pressures it creates.

~~~
TulliusCicero
> Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like
> right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means
> workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to.

Right-to-work laws are like prop 13 in California: sounds good on the surface,
but hidden terrible impact.

On the surface, "I should be able to choose whether or not I join a union"
makes sense, Americans love freedom and choice. But of course, in practice
people who choose not to join a union get to freeload: they get most of the
benefit of the union in how it informs a company's general policies and
culture about workers, but don't have to pay any fees. And like most instances
of the freeloader problem, the result is the responsible entity getting
starved, as everyone wants the others to be the ones paying for the benefits.

~~~
rconti
I absolutely agree free riders are a problem with unions.

But that doesn't mean right to work laws shouldn't exist. Maybe it just means
unions shouldn't exist.

I mean, if your entire business model is flawed, should the world change
around your business model?

This is more of a devil's advocate position, as I'm not particularly anti-
union, but I personally have zero desire to work in a union or be forced to be
in one.

I refuse to say that unions have no place in the world, or have no place in
certain industries, or didn't have a place in the past. I'm rather neutral on
a lot of it, but the fact is the problem is inherent in the union itself.

~~~
RobertoG
"[..] if your entire business model is flawed [..]"

Unions go a little deep than the concept of "business model"

"[..] I personally have zero desire to work in a union or be forced to be in
one."

I'm going to speculate that's only because you have good working conditions.

"unions [..] have a place in the past"

That's a common opinion. What have changed from the past?

Because the laws of capitalism tell us that if any profit or benefit goes to
the worker is because there is no way around it. Sometimes is a good idea look
back to history. For instance the eight hour working day:

" In 1919 in Barcelona, Catalonia, after a 44-day general strike with over
100,000 participants had effectively crippled the Catalan economy, the
Government settled the strike by granting all the striking workers demands
that included an eight-hour day, union recognition, and the rehiring of fired
workers."

([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-
hour_day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day))

Sometimes I think that we are all "free riders" on the fights of the past.

~~~
johnvonneumann
""[..] I personally have zero desire to work in a union or be forced to be in
one."

I'm going to speculate that's only because you have good working conditions."

I have noticed (personal anecdote here so yeah not great) that a large
majority of people that I know against unions have never worked in dangerous
fields, office workers are ridiculously ignorant as to the workplace dangers
of many unionised industries.

------
oblio
Now that's something I haven't heard about in the US for a few decades:
strikes.

I'm partly kidding, but have there been any major strikes in the US lately?

~~~
djsumdog
Strikers in US media are often belittled. Think back to the Occupy Movement.

The banks were bailed out, none of those people who caused so much misery were
ever put in jail, and the media belittled Occupy as being directionless and
pointless. The protest was huge, stretching across cities and countries, but
there was never any accountability for the banksters. It shows again as the
Equifax execs were cleared of insider trading, when they were obviously
insider trading.

When I was in London a few years ago, there was a massive tube strike. The
train drivers were belittled in the media with reports claiming they made over
55k GBP a year, more than many nurses. They neglected to mention the new night
train program would have meant long 7 to 14 week night shifts for every tube
driver. The city was voted in on night trains, but had no money to fund them.
So the blame gets passed all the way down to the tube drivers.

~~~
Ntrails
That's not entirely true. The strike was over the fact that if not enough
drivers _volunteered_ to do the night shifts, TFL could assign non volunteers.
They would still be compensated for the work hours being particularly
antisocial.

It is also true that Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the
levels of sympathy available to them. The change was absolutely funded - just
not as well as the union would like.

In essence, however, tube drivers having veto rights over being scheduled to
work nights presents an opportunity to cause shortages and disruption without
any ramifications or declaration of strike etc. It was a giant liability for
TFL to accept.

~~~
Joeboy
> Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the levels of sympathy
> available to them.

£55k isn't _that_ well paid for people who have to live in or near London. Not
if you consider it the kind of job where you should be able to afford luxuries
like a family, a car, a mortgage, saving for retirement etc. It probably does
sound like a lot to people who live outside London and / or aren't considering
those things.

~~~
chimeracoder
> £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London

It's more than the typical software engineer can expect to make in London.

Source: Glassdoor, Indeed, talking to colleagues who live in London, and my
own memories from my last job search.

~~~
Joeboy
Personally I would say a tube driver is just as entitled to a decent life as
an average software developer but I realize this may be the wrong audience for
that argument.

~~~
eru
Depends on what you mean by 'entitled'?

In an ideal world we'd all have ponies, but in reality there's still scarcity
so we have to ration resources one way or another. (And then whatever
rationing system we use interacts with human incentives and lots of other
systems.)

~~~
Joeboy
> Depends on what you mean by 'entitled'?

I'm not sure it does. I can't think of a reasonable definition whereby I
consider an average software developer to be more entitled to a decent life
than a tube driver.

~~~
eru
The definition that has one 'entitled' to whatever one can get in a voluntary
exchange of goods and services?

------
riffraff
Good luck to them, may they obtain whatever they ask.

It's also nice to see people doing a serious strike in Italy for once, unions
have done a shitty job there in recent years, but it's important to have
workers protest, to guarantee a balance of power.

------
rurban
Same happened in Germany at 6 Amazon logistic sites at Oct 31, one of the
biggest german holidays. [https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Verdi-ruft-
an-drei-d...](https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Verdi-ruft-an-drei-
deutschen-Amazon-Standorten-zum-Streik-auf-3875870.html)

They even have their own website: [https://www.amazon-
verdi.de/](https://www.amazon-verdi.de/)

~~~
RGamma
What effort people take to work at an obviously toxic company... the job
market must be really bad.

~~~
tunichtgut
it is pretty bad. People have to take those jobs or be unemployed and get so
called sanctions (=less money) by the unemployment office.

There is no general labour shortage in germany right now. 2 million foreigners
are getting unemployment payments right now, which is ~1.000 Euros per month
(housing included). In addition, 7 million german people are out of work.

All in all i guess we have ~10 million people waiting in lines for more work
or work at all.

------
Sujan
Great way to make sure in the near future Amazon will send packages to Italy
from France, Austria, Slovenia or Switzerland - the countries sharing a border
with them.

(Same happened - and is happening - in Germany. Staff at logistics centers
started to strike (in small numbers). Totally unrelated Amazon started
shipping from Poland and Czech Republic)

~~~
09094920394314
And so will either increase prices or slow down delivery. Also, I don't know
wether Italy has sane strike laws or not, but in Germany amazon would not be
allowed to just fire the strikers, and there is and was non-negligible PR
fallout from the strikes.

Just to present the full picture. In the end, either there will be a price
found. But I'd say good for Italian workers for making the labour market more
of a market

~~~
plandis
Wait, what? You can’t fire people who refuse to work? That sounds absolutely
crazy.

~~~
nkkollaw
It's not crazy in a civilized country. They're not slaves, you know..?

~~~
ars
But the people paying them are slaves, and can be forced to continue paying
them for nothing?

~~~
coredog64
They aren't usually paid during the strike.

------
Thlom
How do unions work in the US? From what I hear it sounds like members are
"employed" by the union and the company is forced to hire workers from the
union? Have I misunderstood?

In Europe workers are hired by the company and are free to enter whichever
union he or she wants or not to join a union. Usually all workers at a
workplace join the same union and form a local branch/club at the workplace.
Unions are national and usually there's several different unions organised
under one union organiser. The biggest union organiser in Norway have almost a
million members (that's one fifth of the population!) across almost 30
different unions. So when push comes to shove they are able to call a general
strike and basically shut down the country. That almost never happens though.

~~~
literallycancer
>How do unions work in the US? From what I hear it sounds like members are
"employed" by the union and the company is forced to hire workers from the
union? Have I misunderstood?

This is the case in the EU as well. If your company is of a certain size, you
are required to pay a person that works for the union rather than for the
company.

~~~
badlogic
Citation needed. At least in Austria, a country with a 90%+ unionization, that
is absolutely not the case.

------
Kiro
> The company said salaries paid to its workers were among the highest in the
> logistic sector and that it also provided some benefits such as private
> medical insurance or money to pay for training programs.

I don't understand how you can strike if this is true.

~~~
SiempreViernes
I don't either understand why they strike, but that's because they released
their statement as a scanned pdf without ocr and I can't read italian:
[http://www.cgilpiacenza.it/imgportfolio/14/img_6/img_767969....](http://www.cgilpiacenza.it/imgportfolio/14/img_6/img_767969.pdf)

~~~
mrighele
I will try a summary translation for you (I can't claim to be perfect, it is
more union-speak than Italian :-) ):

The issues that the unions are complaining about are:

* Need for increased wages: the current wages follow the minimum required by the CCNL (national collective contract)[ _], but working condition are worse than usual: pauseless working shifts, higher productivity required, night shifts spread all year long with 6 days working week in during high peak perios (e.g. Christmas)._ No productivity bonuses for event such as Christmas or Black Friday. * No ability to balance work life and personal life.

The unions say that they are going on strike since for more that one years
they have tried to address those issues with Amazon but the latter always
delayed any kind of action.

[*] CCNL is a contract that is agreed between unions and employers at the
national level to guarantee a baseline for all employees in a given sector.

~~~
azernik
So basically, they're saying Amazon is straight up lying about their wages
being the highest in the sector.

~~~
mrighele
According to a link that someone else posted [1] (Sorry but it's in Italian),
they get about 1200 EUR/month (this is net income after taxes, compulsory
health insurance and retirement fees). I guess that Amazon is applying the
national contract for the commerce sector [2] (PDF, this too in Italian) and
the amount is supposed to be about 1250 EUR (you should consider the lower
amount, which is what probably applies to a regular warehouse worker with
little experience and no management responsability).

So from what I understand, the union is right in stating that Amazon's pay is
not above the national contract.

Keep in mind that there are a number of tricks that can be used in order not
the pay the official amount. For example, if you are hired as an apprentice
the pay is lower. You can not be apprentice for more than 3 years, but the
system can be abused, especially if the turnover is quite high. So in a way
Amazon also is right when it says that it pays above average.

But in my opinion the salary is not the main issue, if what is said about the
working conditions is true (not only in Italy, but also Germany and the US),
those should be fixed because I think they are not healthy.

[1] [http://www.lastampa.it/2017/03/14/edizioni/vercelli/qui-
ad-a...](http://www.lastampa.it/2017/03/14/edizioni/vercelli/qui-ad-amazon-
tre-turni-e-uno-stipendio-da-euro-SRZaDy0KStuNc7C9LEnlbI/pagina.html) [2]
[https://www.cifaitalia.it/index.php?option=com_attachments&t...](https://www.cifaitalia.it/index.php?option=com_attachments&task=download&id=4)

~~~
Kiro
Why do they measure it by net income? Is everyone paying the same taxes in
Italy? In my country you measure everything by gross income.

------
pouetpouet
Black friday is a thing in Italy??

~~~
simias
This year it's a thing in France too apparently, or at least some vendors are
pushing it. See for instance amazon.fr's frontpage or even the local fnac.com.
When I saw "black friday" on their landing page I thought I had gone on the
american version by accident. It's odd because Thanksgiving is only something
you see in American sitcoms over here.

American cultural imperialism is really impressive. I can understand why
Halloween gets more and more popular over here since it's a fun holiday for
kids but I can't figure out how black friday makes any sense when you don't
celebrate Thanksgiving. I also don't understand why they hope to make "black
friday" a positive brand when the only thing I associate it with is videos of
Americans trampling each other to get cheap appliances.

~~~
bambax
Amazon is indeed actively pushing "Black Friday", and Fnac is playing catchup.
But I don't know if anyone in France is aware that "Black Friday" means
"discount"...?

Also, discount days are regulated in France (called "les soldes"); normally
you can't have a discount day any time you want, you have to apply for
authorization.

I sell on Amazon in Europe for the first time this year (started in January);
I don't do discounts but am anxious to see if sales will rise this week-end.

~~~
tdeck
> Also, discount days are regulated in France (called "les soldes"); normally
> you can't have a discount day any time you want, you have to apply for
> authorization.

What is the rationale for that?

~~~
icebraining
Portugal has the same rule (and before you couldn't have them at all except in
two periods in the year defined by law). The reasoning is to protect small
shops from large retailers, by preventing them from forcing unplanned price
wars.

Similarly, for many years the very large retailers couldn't open on Sunday
afternoons, although that restriction mostly benefited the large chains of
medium-sized shops, since it was based on the size of the shop rather than the
company.

------
nanomoose
Italy is also pushing forward with a 6% revenue tax on Amazon and similar.

------
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------
SiempreViernes
The joint declaration from the unions (scanned, italian, pdf):
[http://www.cgilpiacenza.it/imgportfolio/14/img_6/img_767969....](http://www.cgilpiacenza.it/imgportfolio/14/img_6/img_767969.pdf)

~~~
FanaHOVA
They are basically saying that they talked with Amazon management and they
were open to listen but not to act in order to raise their salaries and add
bonuses. The reasons why they are asked it's because they have to work nights,
Sundays and have forced overtime.

The economy in Italy is really bad, most of my friends don't have jobs and
those who do usually have ones who are just average pay (18k euros/year). From
what I read here (an Italian newspaper:
[http://www.lastampa.it/2017/03/14/edizioni/vercelli/qui-
ad-a...](http://www.lastampa.it/2017/03/14/edizioni/vercelli/qui-ad-amazon-
tre-turni-e-uno-stipendio-da-euro-SRZaDy0KStuNc7C9LEnlbI/pagina.html))
salaries are 1100-1200/month AFTER taxes. My dad delivers fresh fish to
restaurants, he starts working at 4am every day until 1pm the next day. He
works Monday through Saturday. His pay is slightly higher than that simply
because he's been there for 20+ years and is now responsible for a few other
things.

At least once a month there would be a strike while I was in high school,
whether that was the professors, the bus drivers, the school janitors, the
delivery people, etc. I don't think this is gonna be any more useful than
those strikes; the difference is that Amazon can fire them, while those other
strikes were "safe" because they are all state jobs which you can not be
removed from. Curious to see how this plays out.

~~~
CamTin
He works 37 hours at a stretch 6 days a week?

~~~
FanaHOVA
Not sure what math you are doing, but 4am - 1pm is 9 hours of work, over 6
days that's 54 hours.

~~~
CamTin
"4am every day until 1pm the next day" is 37 hours if you take it literally.
Mathematically this obviously can't be true. Your interpretation of "4am until
1pm the same day" is only one of many possible ways we could "fix" the
sentence to mean something sensible.

------
erikb
Is there a Black Friday in Italy? I thought this would be a purely American
thing.

~~~
KozmoNau7
A bunch of companies are desperately trying to make it a thing here in
Denmark, as well. By the looks of it, they jack up their prices slightly about
a month in advance, and then offer crappy 20-30% "rebates" on Black Friday.

It is simply not worth it.

~~~
sliverstorm
Fight it. There's all kinds of collateral damage.

[https://www.strongtowns.org/blackfridayparking/](https://www.strongtowns.org/blackfridayparking/)

~~~
KozmoNau7
Luckily, that isn't an issue here in Denmark. Not yet, at least.

This year, I am looking to see if a very specific configuration of laptop goes
on sale on a local refurb dealer, and if it's not exactly what I want at a
good (ie. heavily reduced) price, it's #buynothingday for me again this year.

------
tunichtgut
I dont blame them. Wages in Germany are far to low.

------
kingkawn
Woody Guthrie knew
[https://youtu.be/10A0HQPLTJk](https://youtu.be/10A0HQPLTJk)

------
malchow
Stories like this will, in the near future, be part of the story about why
Brexit was NBD.

~~~
splouk
Could you elaborate?

~~~
rsynnott
Presumably no-one will want to strike after Brexit, due to all the Red, White
and Blueness.

I dunno, maybe they think May will declare herself dictator for life and ban
organised labour or something?

~~~
johnvonneumann
The majority of countries are already enacting laws/frameworks/technology that
would help eventually outlaw this sort of behaviour, perhaps not explicitly,
but many times implicitly. For example in Australia the govt is looking to
push facial recognition cameras into public places and "only use them for
serious crimes where the sentence is 3 years or more". What they fail to tell
you is that in Aus, public disturbance carries something like 5 years, so now
there's the very legitimate worry that facial recognition could be used on
people fighting for their rights and showing support. Used the Aus example
because the two countries are fairly similar law wise, and with their
surveillance stances.

------
alexasmyths
It's not 'black Friday' in Europe.

------
anon11082016
But exactly after 5pm, they'll go home from their strike. Not a minute longer

------
grondilu
> Unions said in a statement more than 500 Amazon workers at the Piacenza site
> in northern Italy had agreed to strike following a failure to negotiate
> bonuses with the company.

They could not get bonuses, so they go on strike? Jeez, Amazon really needs to
work on automating its warehouses ASAP, for it seems to me workers greed is
becoming a problem.

------
beavis2
I know this doesn't really apply to Amazon, however I think it's irresponsible
striking on the companies busiest days.

If you want to keep your job, your company needs money. If you want better
wages/conditions, your company needs more money.

With that said, I do wish the strikers luck.

~~~
eloisant
At some point when the company is making tons of money but is screwing its
employees, the only recourse the employees have is to do damage to the company
to be heard.

Amazon is already drowning in money, Bezos is the richest man on earth, even
more money is not going to convince them to treat their employees better. A
bit less money is not going to sink Amazon.

~~~
beavis2
I know. It doesn't apply to Amazon - I wish the workers all the luck.

