
Inside Amazon.com warehouse workers complain of brutal conditions - aaronbrethorst
http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-17/news/mc-allentown-amazon-complaints-20110917_1_warehouse-workers-heat-stress-brutal-heat
======
potatolicious
Former Amazonian, the constant use of contractors, even in cases where the
jobs are anything but contract, is one of the many things that eventually made
me decide to look for something else.

I had the privilege there of working with some insanely dedicated people,
smart, hard-working, and _good_ , who were kept on near-permanent contractor
status, and then unceremoniously dumped when the legal limits for contract
lengths came up.

And these weren't warehouse workers, these were HR folks, recruiters,
technicians, and the such - people in positions that are neither seasonal nor
temporary.

Beyond the moral/compassion concerns of this, it wreaked havoc with the team
to have a good hire on board for most of a year, and suddenly have him/her
replaced with someone unknown who needed even more retraining. It also placed
a constant load on the people involved, since you're essentially always re-
hiring the same position, over and over, with the requisite interviews and
costs. Suffice to say it caused a lot of disruption with the team, and I have
to question the wisdom of dragging down the productivity of a dozen people to
save money on one.

I can't say I know the official (or unofficial) reasoning for this, though of
course the usual suspects of paying out benefits comes to mind. Also, certain
headcount metrics may exclude contractors, which might be a way for management
to look like they're keeping headcount down while still getting the hands they
actually need. Either way, it soured my faith in the company some, and with a
bunch of other factors led me to depart from the company.

~~~
typicalrunt
EA has the same problem.

It's a US legal system thing. I don't know the law by name, but a contractor
can only be kept on for a period of 6 months to a year. After that, they must
be made full-time or removed. After a cool-down period, they can be rehired.

Some companies are getting around this legally but hiring companies to
outsource, and yet embed, contractors into the client's office under a managed
service agreement.

~~~
jolan
There isn't a law. Each company has their own policy as a result of so-called
Permatemps at Microsoft filing a class action:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp#Vizcaino_v._Microsoft>

~~~
nirvdrum
In Massachusetts you can't hire someone as a contractor that is in effect an
employee. It's really tricky to get right. But they're extremely strict about
it so employers can't evade payroll taxes, workers' comp., etc.

~~~
calloc
In Arizona a person is not a contractor unless they can set their own times
and their own pace to complete work that is assigned.

That means as a contractor you can't be forced to come into the office at 9:00
AM to work till 5:00 PM, if you are not allowed to set your own work schedule
you are not considered a contractor and the company should be paying your
taxes and you should be getting a W2 instead of a 1099.

They were fairly strict in that regard as well, my boss was paying me as a
1099 and I wasn't aware of this, and the business got audited by the IRS and
he had to retroactively pay taxes and they talked to me and I had to redo my
taxes for the two years I worked there. Was a nightmare.

~~~
OstiaAntica
This is federal tax law, and it applies in all 50 states. Contractors also
must provide their own equipment (i.e. computer) and be able to make a profit
or loss on the engagement. Absent these conditions, you are an employee as far
as the IRS is concerned, and your employer is responsible for a great many
taxes and sometimes overtime pay.

~~~
drewda
See IRS form SS-8: <http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf>

More details at:
[http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.h...](http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html)

------
mindstab
This is the growing dichotomy and split of american class. You have the
educated who run the business side and programming side of amazon and from
what I hear like their jobs and get paid well. Then you have the labor force.
They don't have the education (different class and have a harder time
affording the expensive american education or affected by the growing american
anti intellectualism) and so they are left with hard labor jobs, which are
drying up. Part of the reason they are drying up is that the rest of the world
has a vastly lower standard of living (and some would arguer better work ethic
too) and so the job can be out sourced to those who will do the same work for
less. And now technology is replacing some of the remaining jobs. Seen the
automated checkouts stores now? DVD rental placing like blockbuster are being
replaced by websites (netflix) and big red boxes in other stores. And
automated assembly in factories. These jobs are never coming back.

This leaves the uneducated class of america fighting for the few remaining low
paying labor jobs left in the country like these ones that have to stay for
locational reasons (the one location on the highway that is with in 1 days
drive from 1/3 of the american and canadian population) and haven't yet been
automated with technology.

The impulse of many of us is yes to just say "well then get educated" but it
isn't that easy. There are big social forces in america about entitlement and
anti intellectualism and education in america is also often just bloody
expensive.

It's a mess and a further symptom of the growing class divide that now their
own lower class people are being worked like we saw nike sweat shops working
Asians not too long ago.

~~~
epicviking
I think people really over estimate the anti-intellectualism side of things.

When you come from hard labor you don't have much time to really think about
your options. You're 18, you're on your own, you need to feed yourself and pay
the rent. You don't have many options. Your family was never in a position to
afford college for you, living paycheck to paycheck and all. Theres a vein of
fatalism running underneath all of this, your daddy worked in a warehouse, his
daddy worked in a warehouse, and you're gonna work in a warehouse too. It is
just how it is. It is sad, but it is how it is.

------
bglbrg
I worked in Amazon warehouses for two summers during college, doing the sorts
of tasks described here. The first year there was no A/C. Actually, it wasn't
so terrible. The next year there was central air, but by then there was quite
a bit more structure. I was on a 10h overnight shift four days a week. There
were traffic lights hanging from the ceilings; if the light was green, you'd
go home at 6am. If the light was yellow, you could opt to work overtime for an
hour. Red light = mandatory overtime.

It was fairly unpleasant, but I was only there 4 months at a time, and for a
19 y/o the pay was better than other things.

There were indeed pretty stringent rules about keeping up a rate of work. I
felt lucky that lifting books at standing height and walking constantly didn't
cause the fatigue that using a tape gun for 10 hours might. I don't recall
getting demerits but I remember the system (this was 10+ years ago).

When I first scanned the report I thought it seemed overblown. However, the
workers interviewed describe a lack of human connection in the face of
difficulties. When I did this work, there were expectations, but there were
also plenty of pleasant, supportive managers around. I never had any problems
doing my work, but I would have imagined more interest and understanding of a
team leader if someone did.

This was long, long ago in the history of Amazon. Given their volume today, I
can't say I'm surprised at the numbers-focused attitude. It's very
disappointing to hear.

------
gregatragenet
When I was 14 I worked a warehouse gig assembling sunday-morning newspapers
(the news printed that morning is combined with a larger pre-printed section
of want-ads, etc). The hours were 3am-6am, it was poorly ventilated, the pay
was bad, and the work tiring. The lesson I took away from that job is that if
I wanted something better I had better improve myself and get some marketable
skills. Skills that'd add value to what I do for an employer, and that'd cause
the employer a loss of value if they were to let me go.

I'd hope current warehouse workers would walk away with a similar lesson - but
apparently not in this case since the employee at the opening of the article
is 34.

Basically, if you are an unskilled worker don't show surprise at the fact that
your employer can and will easily replace you with someone else who'll do more
work at a cheaper price.

If not, I'll provide different advice that I learned in the Army. Drink more
water if it is hot.

~~~
Klinky
Not everyone will have the chances or make the right choices to "better
themselves". That doesn't mean they deserve to work in unsafe or unhealthy
conditions.

~~~
mindstab
that's the problem of the american entitlement. There are still huge chunks of
the rest of the world who would jump for those jobs at those wages. This is
why most of these jobs that haven't been automated have been outsourced. This
one remains for locational reasons.

Sure it'd be great if they didn't deserve that, but it's not just americans
making $11 or $12 an hour. It's huge chunks of the world living off less than
$1 a day

~~~
Klinky
Not sure why anyone can justify anyone being forced to work in unsafe or
unhealthy conditions for low pay. Regardless of what country they're in.

People making $1/day shouldn't be faced with it & the people making $12/hr
shouldn't be faced with. Also let's not pretend that cost of living is
comparable between all countries.

Now this isn't to say that people aren't faced with these conditions, but just
because that's the way it is, doesn't mean that's the way it should be.

~~~
absconditus
It can be justified because our entire economy would collapse otherwise. If
most of the people in the US want to continue to purchase goods at relatively
low prices then this is what is necessary. Go ask the average person why they
do not shop at Whole Foods. Now imagine what would happen if every company
paid their employees as well as Whole Foods does for unskilled labor and put
as much effort as Whole Foods does into sourcing products that are better for
those producing them (<http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/whole-
trade.php>). What happens to those on the lower end of the earning scale in
that situation?

------
duck
That sounds a lot like _most_ warehouse jobs. I had a warehouse job while in
college for a while and it was either really hot or cold. Sometimes it was
busy, sometimes it wasn't. One thing remained constant - pretty much everyone
complained about their job and how much they hated working there, yet nobody
ever seemed to leave.

~~~
Natsu
Sad, but true. My employer has a shop floor where the heat was, in fact,
brutal. I personally raised a fuss about the heat, being one of the people
deputized as first aid providers and having seen a few things that worried me.
Thankfully, management responded and the guys got some more swamp coolers, as
well as these things you soak in cool water and put around your neck, which
improved things.

So yes, especially this year with all those heat warnings, miserably hot 100+
degree work floors, mandatory overtime and constant use of temps, harsh
conditions are, unfortunately, quite normal for that kind of environment.

That said, just because it's normal, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be
improved. If you have to make a fuss, you should. There are a ton of people
out there who simply can't afford to make waves in this economy and they're
suffering for it. The people who can best afford to make waves need to if they
see unsafe conditions.

~~~
ww520
Those water absorbing polymer beads/bands around the neck are life-saver. They
cool down the body temperature slowly overtime. Last time I hiked in Grand
Canyon during summer, it was 110 degree. Those water beads really help to cool
down.

~~~
Natsu
I badgered one guy into wearing one. I noticed a big improvement in his
condition, whether he did or not.

You're right that they help a LOT. I think we were able to get a bunch at a
dollar store for some ridiculously cheap price. I can't believe that more
places don't use them.

------
scarmig
Some of the comments here are along the lines of "Well, they should go get a
better job!"

Hint, folks: not everyone can get a professional job paying six figures a
year. And even if they could, the moment they did, your own wages would drop
substantially.

Have some sympathy.

~~~
ericd
Having sympathy isn't going to fix things, though.

How can we get people in this country to be capable of doing jobs that people
willing to work for next to nothing in other countries can't do just as
capably? If we can retrain a bunch of them to be great software engineers, our
own wages might drop a bit from their absurdly high peaks, but currently the
demand for people able to write good software is underserved, and it could be
much larger, as software enters other facets of life and needs to be
maintained and rewritten to deal with changing demands.

Having more engineers would enable a greater range of software to be created.

~~~
epicviking
You can't outsource customer facing jobs. Someone has to work the cash
registers.

You can't outsource construction jobs. Someone has to update our nation's
crumbling infrastructure.

You can't outsource healthcare jobs. Someone has to change the IV bags and
push around the stretchers.

You can't outsource teaching. Someone has to teach future generations about
math and science and history and puberty.

You can't outsource the maintenance and repair of our utilities. Electricians
and plumbers, they're definitely going to be in demand.

Reports of the death of the American blue collar job are greatly exaggerated.

~~~
cperciva
_Someone has to work the cash registers._

You sure about that? I've seen a lot of supermarkets going self-checkout
lately. Sure, it's not out-sourcing in the usual sense; but it is replacing
workers with something cheaper (equipment which was probably manufactured in
another country).

 _Someone has to update our nation's crumbling infrastructure._

True, but the number of workers you need depends on the construction
techniques you use. If manpower is expensive, you buy prefabricated components
and only do the final assembly on site.

 _Someone has to change the IV bags and push around the stretchers._

True, but technology and a willingness to spend more on equipment can reduce
the number of people you need to do this. (e.g., "smart" IV bags which alert
staff when they need to be changed, rather than having nurses walk around
checking the bags.)

 _Someone has to teach future generations about math and science and history
and puberty._

Khan Academy.

 _Electricians and plumbers, they're definitely going to be in demand._

True, but the more expensive they are, the greater the pressure will be to
create hot water heaters which don't need to be replaced every five years.

 _Reports of the death of the American blue collar job are greatly
exaggerated._

There are a lot of job categories which will never be eliminated entirely,
sure -- but most of them can still be dramatically downsized via the
application of technology and sufficient quantities of money.

Nobody is so essential to the continuation of civilization that they can set
their own wages. There's always going to be a point where people will say "you
know, we've got a cheaper option".

~~~
sixtofour
"If manpower is expensive, you buy prefabricated components and only do the
final assembly on site."

Not infrastructure, but that's exactly what Boeing has done for years,
assemble airplanes out of prefabbed subassemblies.

When Boeing gets a contract to sell planes to, say, China or Japan, part of
the deal is often that the subassemblies (wings, body sections, whatever) are
made in that country, shipped to the US and assembled by Boeing.

Airplanes are a more controlled and regular construction environment than
highways, but I don't see why it won't become more common. Residential and
commercial buildings too, I suppose. Suburban houses are already cookie cutter
these days.

------
locopati
Submitted earlier as a single-page link

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3017515>

~~~
marcamillion
Thank you. HN never fails me. I saw the 10 pages and closed it without reading
because there is no way I am wading through all those ads for 10 pages.

------
pg_bot
My father is a truck driver, and he refuses to work with Amazon for many of
the reasons listed in this article. Amazon also refuses to pay detention time
for drivers that have been at their facility for more than two hours (an
industry standard).

------
kaybe
It sounds like we really should change the system to where automatisation of
those jobs is a good thing.

The situation is simply ridiculous - we can feed everyone, there is way enough
stuff for everyone (at least in the richer countries, and longterm,
everywhere, I'd wager) and it's possible to automate great parts of hard and
gruesome work. And yet, the system demands that everyone works and gets
stressed out, even if there is not enough to do - it's not just economic
restraints, it's also the value people are given in society.

I'm not arguing against social capitalism here, which seems to work better in
large scales than anything else we've tried, but this really is a problem and
an opportunity that needs to be discussed more.

------
RexRollman
As a fan and customer of Amazon, I am sad and disgusted after reading this
article. I will have to serious reconsider my Amazon Prime membership, which
expires in a couple of weeks.

------
bmohlenhoff
The description of the working conditions, job availability in the region, and
worker treatment reminds me of the initial few chapters of Manna
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna_%28novel%29>). In the novel, employees
are instantly replaceable cogs in a machine and are treated with complete
disrespect. As there are more people than there are available jobs, any
slacking at all results in employee termination. I guess the story wasn't such
a fiction, after all.

~~~
potatolicious
It was never fiction in most of the world. America (and the West in general)
simply experienced a very brief era where it wasn't true.

The depressing thought for me is that we are simply returning to a historical
norm, from an abnormal spike in quality of life for the middle class.

------
_napw
I worked as a developer there, conditions weren't much better. Frugality means
cheap, and the turnover rate was just insane. A lot of the ones who stay are
only staying because the stock price is so high right now making their options
worth a lot. Really depressing, because upper management at Amazon is very
very competent - they have a long term vision, and they are executing on it
with a ton of energy. They just seem to have forgotten about the peasants
along the way.

------
jolan
Newegg's warehouse for comparison:

<http://www.anandtech.com/print/1945>

~~~
jrockway
What's odd is that Newegg always ships me broken stuff, whereas the stuff I
get from Amazon is always packaged properly to avoid damage. (Note to Newegg.
Don't send me a hard drive in a plastic eggshell case with a few packing
peanuts in the box. I'm surprised those drives lasted long enough to even get
an OS installed.)

~~~
potatolicious
I used to work at Amazon in the operations department. The amount of work they
do to ensure things are undamaged in transit is pretty amazing, and mind-
boggling.

What people see is a brown cardboard box with air pillows, but there is a
really absurd amount of technology and science behind it.

------
jesseendahl
Here is the link to the single-page version:
[http://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-allentown-amazon-
complain...](http://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-allentown-amazon-
complaints-20110917,0,7937001,full.story)

~~~
nadahalli
The posted link is a PerfectMarket page. First time on HackerNews, I think.

------
smountcastle
I've love to see Jeff B. work at one of these warehouses 'undercover
boss'-style. Amazon is in the business of keeping prices low but the
conditions described in that article sound awful.

~~~
snorkel
"This is an amazing device! What do you call this thing? A "push cart"?? I
call it the Future of Transportation! This push cart will transform cities!!!"

------
schiffern
I'm surprised they don't paint the roofs white.

Amazon's Allentown warehouse on GMaps: <http://g.co/maps/ehxta>

~~~
nasmorn
It is ridiculous that Amazon is allowed to have paramedics parked outside and
ship people to hospitals for completely foreseeable events. If they had to pay
for these externalities you bet they would paint their roofs white.

------
curt
That's nearly very plant, factory, and warehouse in the world. There's nothing
unique about these conditions. When I was younger and worked in my family's
plant I'd get to work before 5am to beat the heat. Sometimes I couldn't and
the heat was brutal, but you learn to deal with it (set up fans, take more
water breaks, change your clothes).

~~~
colanderman
> get to work before 5am

Many warehouses don't let you set your own hours. I doubt Amazon does.

> take more water breaks

These employees were afraid to take _medical_ breaks. I doubt they have the
freedom to take extra water breaks without being in jeopardy of losing their
job.

------
donnaware
Maybe Bezos should spend less time fiddling with 10,000 year clock and more
time caring about employees ?

~~~
nitrogen
Why can't he do both? Both are worthy goals that benefit society in some way.

------
dramaticus3
Why didn't they just report it to their union rep ?

In the UK this would be UNITED ROAD TRANSPORT UNION <http://www.urtu.com/>

shit like this would be over

------
zmonkeyz
Breaking news. Working in a factory sucks.

