
Do You Wanna Touch - co_pl_te
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/11/do-you-wanna-touch.html
======
kijin
> _How wonderful it is to flip open the Surface and quickly type a 4 paragraph
> email response when I need to ... And switching between the two modes of
> interaction – sometimes typing, sometimes touching – is completely natural._

OK, let's assume that the Surface's keyboard completely solves the problem of
not being able to write properly. That still leaves us with the problem of not
being able to point properly.

I can't even imagine how the touchscreen could ever rival the precision of the
mouse as a pointing device. The average adult human finger is simply too thick
to select 5 characters from the middle of a word displayed in 10 points, or to
drag a Photoshop layer 1 pixel to the right. Even a conventional trackpad on a
cheap laptop has better precision than your finger does, though good luck
finding actual graphic designers who prefer trackpads to actual mice. Styluses
(styli?) aren't much better, unless your stylus is sharp enough to damage the
screen. The fact that touchscreens don't allow you to fine-tune your aim
before you click makes it even more difficult to achieve precision.

How do we address this issue? How do we make touchscreen devices useful for
those who need spatial precision? What would be the most natural way to add
precise pointing abilities to a tablet computer without compromising the
advantages of the touchscreen? Carrying around a cordless mouse doesn't seem
to be a particularly elegant solution. What do you think? Is
touchscreen+keyboard the future of personal computing, or is there always
going to be a place for mice as specialty items for graphic designers and some
other professionals?

~~~
roc
> _"How do we address this issue?"_

The way people have _already done so_ in touch software to date?

You program 'un-pinch to zoom' to zoom the desired elements allowing
increasing levels of accuracy as needed. And in the cases that you need 'pixel
perfect' accuracy [1] you simply include "bump" UI controls or expose explicit
pixel coordinates that can themselves be altered to affect the desired
movement of the layer or selection or what-have-you (something even
keyboard/mouse UI usually offers).

Precision is a largely solved issue in touch software. The real problem that
will keep mice around in a largely-touch-driven world, is the simple
ergonomics of spending eight hours at a desk. (i.e. Gorilla-arm.) [2]

[1] 'Pixel perfect' is a concept that makes increasingly less sense as
displays reach and exceed 300dpi. Pretty soon we'll all be dealing with
vectors and things will be better for it. 'Pixel perfect' accuracy is of mere
transitory usefulness until then.

[2] Barring the development of a drafting-table-style variant of the original
surface and either some sort of flawless arm/palm/accidental-touch rejection
or a switch from 'any' touch to 'explicit-object' touch.

e.g. the desk ignores all contacts except from a pre-ordained 'pen', 'thimble'
or 'glove'.

~~~
gregsq
I'm afraid this doesn't work in all cases. When working in a reduced physical
area, irrespective of pixel count, zooming in and snapping to boundaries is
counter productive. Audio wave editing for example is an operation on cyclic (
obviously ) information, and when zooming in as a means of rationalising
location, important context is lost.

Imagine a time line with a periodic wave, interrupted only by a one or two
cycle click. Zooming in to normalise the ratio of object to finger leads to
very easily losing context. That is, relative positioning left or right is
lost. So it becomes frustrating zooming in and out in order to get your
bearings again. Even attempting this on a trackpad is quite difficult, when
compared to high resolution mice.

There are many cases where it's much better to have a large display area,
combined with a high resolution mapping to that area. I could edit waves on a
postage stamp sized display with my finger if I put my mind to it. I don't
think I would be as productive as on a tablet sized display though. In other
cases I need to increase yet above that ratio. I'm afraid stubby fingers on
compensating scaled objects is not adequate always.

~~~
roc
It sounds to me like you're conflating "the trouble with touch" with "the
trouble with too-small-screens" and deciding the problem is touch.

But I'm guessing you don't edit waves with a keyboard/mouse on a 3, 4 or 9.7"
screen either. So maybe "touch" isn't the obstacle you're really battling in
the situation described.

Also, haven't people long had solutions where a 'work area' is zoomed for
precision selection/editing while one-or-more 'larger context' views are
maintained (or operates on its own zoom level) in another chunk of the screen?

Do wave-editing tools not behave like that?

~~~
gregsq
Well, keeping to this example, there are sometimes conflicting requirements. A
transient with a long train decay, such as a crash cymbal or knock, explosion
or gunfire for example requires a wide view to properly observe the full
affect. The trailing decay can last for quite a while in this scenario. The
optimum situation here is to include a segment before and afterwards, or
perhaps even more than that, depending, as some modulation becomes clearer the
more you zoom out, not in.

At the same time, operating on selected segments is more efficiently done with
finely controlled hairline cursors, where an obscuring object like a finger
doesn't contend, generally. After this of course, zooming and other means of
fine control and selection come into play.

In scenarios like this it is very much a case of not being able to see the
forest for the trees if making a representation too large.

There are solutions to the problem of precise location, which I think include
touch and gestures, though not necessarily solely through touch. In practice I
use the right hand for precise hairline location and the left to zoom in with
gestures, zoom out again for context and then iterate.

I'm not arguing for mice over touch. I'm looking at precision. I always find
it quicker to type on my Bluetooth keyboard than on my iPhones screen
keyboard. The reason for that for me has just to do with the ratio between
active elements. Keyboard keys are larger than my fingers, on screen keys are
smaller.

I actually think that in some cases gestures in the z plane, as well as x and
y would be a way of adding capability.

These opinions are based on having to give up the USB mouse in the field,
using JTAG's and external drives in a two port only MBP. Using the trackpad
leads to much longer work times, simply because it's a less precise device.

~~~
roc
Let me start off by saying I was originally taking issue with the idea that
touch precision is a _problem_. That it _can't_ work in certain cases and that
we'll always _need_ mice. And all that in a complaint that demonstrated a
pretty narrow understanding of what has already been done with touch
interfaces.

It was never my intention to argue that touch is always the _preferable_
interface for all workloads (something I tried to convey by pointing out how
mice will remain relevant for quite some time, due entirely to day-long
workloads).

As applies to your concerns, I was just trying to suggest that workable
solutions exist, even if they'll always be less-than-ideal for larger
quantities of work.

As to your specific concern, I still think a workable solution may be out
there, even if it remains undoubtedly less efficient than a mouse and a larger
screen.

e.g. Wouldn't the sorts of drag and off-axis drag controls that are used for
seek in many podcast/audio-player apps [1] address precision-selection in
cases where too-much-zoom presents problems, and also obviate the concern
about fingers obscuring the wave itself?

[1] click to 'grab' the selection-marker/nubby on the wave/timeline, drag
across the x axis to seek and then _down_ on the y axis to control the speed
of seek -- typically doing more and more fine-grained seek for a given x-axis
drag length, as the finger gets further from the wave/timeline

------
dkhenry
He is right about the future of interaction being touch + keyboard. I have
been using my Transformer Prime for about a year now as a laptop replacement.
It doesn't do everything I ask of computers ( but then again neither would any
laptop ), but it does have this great interaction where I can switch between
windows with the Honeycomb switcher app ( replaces alt-tab ) I can swipe
between tabs in the terminal and use the touch screen to scroll back text. It
is still the best device for reading any E-mails and its good at writing all
but the longest. However the coup de grâce of it is that I can use it for 12
to 18 hours without even thinking about plugging it into something. I can
leave it unplugged for weeks and come back to a decent charge on it, and to my
knowledge the only time I have ever turned it off was when I flashed CM10 on
it. If the surface can provide those kind of experiences then I think its just
a matter of time until it becomes a standard piece of kit for computer users.

~~~
sixothree
I just cannot imagine spending my entire day holding or reaching up to touch a
device. I work at a desk. I code. I write documentation. I send emails. I
don't see how touch fits into my workflow at all.

~~~
rogerbinns
"Gorilla arm" is how your arm will feel after reaching up to touch a
screen/device. <http://catb.org/jargon/html/G/gorilla-arm.html>

Touching my desktop screens would involve moving my hands to around eye level.
I hold my phone/tablet a lot lower.

My real problem in the new world order is that tablets seem to have topped out
at 10 inches. While that may be comfortable for many, my hand span is the same
width as the screen and I'd prefer something a lot larger.

~~~
r00fus
Rejoice - a 13" tablet does exist already and will be on the shelves soon:
<http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/25/toshiba-excite-13-review/>

~~~
rogerbinns
I'd be all over this except for several problems:

* Extremely low resolution

* Old Android version and Toshiba have no history of staying fresh with Android

* Tegra 3 based, and will be released just as Tegra 4 devices come out

I do like that is has an SD card slot, micro USB/HDMI etc. Sadly all they have
done is take a mediocre tablet and scaled it up, and then delayed releasing
it.

------
Newky
I loved this article as it clearly demonstrates Jeff's love of all hardware.
There is no real hatred for any brand here, and he complements all the major
devices while remaining objective.

One comment I would make is regarding this, "I knew that the Nexus 7 was
really working for me when I gave mine to my father as a spontaneous gift
while he was visiting, then missed it sorely when waiting for the replacement
to arrive.". I know that Jeff is above my pay bracket, but even still, this
makes me wonder what sort of money stream this is, if he can simply hand away
Nexus 7's. I earn a respectful living but that sort of money is still
substantial enough that I can't afford to simply give one away.

~~~
netcan
Say he buys these gadgets in a year:

    
    
      1 high end laptop - $1500
      1 netbook - $500
      2 phones - $500 X 2
      2 tablets - $500 + $250
      1 ereader - $100
      1 cool TV device - $250
      accessories $500
    
      Total: $390 per month 
    

It's a lot more than I spend but it definitely isn't super rich level
spending. If someone spent $390 owning a nicer car, a fancier kitchen,
slightly better apartment, a Harley Davidson, etc. you wouldn't even think
about it. I knew students that spent $390 more than me (I spent 0) on clothes.

He has money. He likes computers.

~~~
drivebyacct2
Wow, you just absolved me of a lot of guilt over my tech purchases this year
so far.

~~~
netcan
de nada

------
hrktb
This post feels too short for the argument he is pushing. If the surface is a
laptop killer, what is radically different about it compared to the other
countless tries of putting a keyboard with a touchscreen ?

I am asking genuinely, because I haven't touch or seen one yet. So far the
reviews aren't stellar, there seems to be the same shortcoming as before
(always moving between the keyboard and the screen to type and click on
things), and the software doesn't seem to push the limits of what you can do
on a tablet.

My question would be, my parents hated using an iPad with a keyboard, would
they be better off with a surface?

~~~
taude
He's not arguing that The Surface is a laptop killer, he's arguing that the
hybrid touch/keyboard idea is a laptop killer.

~~~
sixothree
Still a very weak argument. I look at the ways I use a laptop and none of them
would be served any better by a touch device.

~~~
MatthewPhillips
What it comes down to is that eventually it's better to have 1 thing than 2
things that serve a similar purpose. Many (most?) computer people today have 2
things because the gap is too great. Eventually the gap closes a little, and
although it will never close completely, it is better to have 1 thing than 2
things, so you make compromises. I think that is what Jeff is saying here, the
gap is closing just a little, and eventually a tablet becomes good enough as a
PC.

~~~
taude
Yes, exactly. What often happens to me now is 1) I do something on my
tablet...an email comes in, I start to respond, then I get in a little deeper
and need to research something for a proper response....then 2) I reach for my
laptop to finish off the email, likely involving the task of referencing other
documents/web pages, to compose the intelligent reply. Better multi-tasking
and quick access to a keyboard on a device improves this common use case
scenario.

Also, when I travel, I have to take both a laptop and a tablet. As tablets
become a little richer in functionality, I could see less of the need to take
both with me.

------
subb
What about doing actual work? This revolution of touch, which has come to
desktop with Windows 8 and Ubuntu, scares me a bit. First because I feel that
professionnals that use computers daily are not really considered and second
because with touch devices, the emphasis is on consumption rather than
creation.

------
bsimpson
I'm not sure how to feel about tablets.

Even as a life-long Mac guy, I bought a TabletPC in 2005 because I wanted a
pressure-sensitive drawing tablet that was embedded into the display. The most
striking thing for me was how nice it was to be able to sit on the couch and
read a webpage in portrait mode, but having to unfold the keyboard to be able
to go to a new URL (or hunt/peck on the onscreen keyboard) was a disaster.
When Nokia announced its pocket-sized tablet in 2006, I was very tempted to
buy one until I realized it wasn't pressure sensitive.

Drawing on a digital device with an infinite color space is awesome, but being
able to tangibly interact with information is a phenomenal achievement. Hell,
I even built a homebrew version of the Microsoft Surface (table) to explore
the possibilities.

In spite of my enthusiasm over the last decade, the tablets I've seen all feel
like they slow me down. Not only are they computationally underpowered, but
they're just slower to interact with. Moreover, I worry about the ergonomics
of it all. My fingers tend to feel a bit chaffed if I spend too much time with
a tablet. I wonder if others have this issue.

I love the idea of the tablet. I want to love the execution, but nothing I've
seen has made me want to integrate an iPad/Surface RT into my life. My MacBook
just works better for me.

------
ari_elle
Does anyone here also feel like an outsider because you - no matter how other
people love it - just won't get used to touch (or for some reason you don't
want to) ?

I wouldn't mind my current notebook [1] having a touch display (additionally),
but i still wouldn't use it that often i guess (and i wouldn't pay extra for
it).

I really have to try the Keyboard of the Surface though, but knowing me - very
picky about keyboards - i don't think i could work with it.

[1]: Thinkpad T 520

~~~
kijin
Case in point: I have very dry skin. The tip of my fingers will crack and
bleed unless I use a copious amount of hand cream. As a result, every
touchscreen I use becomes a greasy mess of smudged fingerprints. I also hate
scrolling and zooming, because rubbing a finger across several inches of
plastic irritates my skin much more than simply moving a mouse around and
clicking from time to time.

So, regular screen + keyboard + mouse for me.

------
smallegan
The thing that frustrates me most about these devices with keyboard covers
with or without kickstands is that I can't sit on the couch and use it on my
lap. It isn't a LAPtop replacement, it is a portable computing replacement.

~~~
hollerith
You can use it in your lap: you just have to use the on-screen keyboard rather
than the keyboard cover.

That would probably not crimp _my_ style because when I am too tired to get
off the couch and move to a table or desk, I am also probably too tired to do
a satisfactory job at writing anything longer than a tweet.

------
TeMPOraL
While I personally love touchscreens and want to see them everywhere, I think
we can't ignore the limitations of this type interface. For instance, it would
seem that Bret Victor doesn't like Jeff's touch future, and has some
interesting things to say about it:

[http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesi...](http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/)

------
RandallBrown
>This is a version one device from a company that has never built a computer
before

Why do people keep saying this? Microsoft has been making the Xbox and tons of
other hardware for years. They know how to make things.

------
programminggeek
I recently got the ultraslim logitech ipad keyboard cover and it is pretty
awesome. I could really see a future for tablet+keyboard devices for a lot of
people. Apple doesn't really need to promote this as their core feature
because it's just an optional setup, but MSFT could propel the tablet keyboard
market forward in very interesting ways. Very cool.

------
marshray
Disclosure: recently accepted a position at MSFT.

I think I'm starting to "get it", in that Windows 8 (perhaps moreso than
Surface) may have a big effect on how we use computers.

After using a Surface for a day or two, I've caught myself a few times trying
to tap on my other LCD screens. For some reason, this didn't happen even after
using Android tablets, even with docking keyboards.

------
swah
I spend boatloads of money (this is Brazil) in an ipad telling me it was a
productivity device, but its really a consuming device. The more I use touch
devices, the more I realize the superiority of mice: I really hate how my
finger gets in the way on the ipad. Meh.

------
ALee
My mother still cannot use the iPad I bought for her. She still uses a laptop,
but her typing is atrocious. It's not her fault, she wasn't trained to use a
QWERTY keyboard like the rest of us and she's an immigrant.

She can however, speak somewhat understandable English. As we move toward
devices that fit into how human beings naturally interact, I think a necessary
evolution is going to be voice recognition, but not as we think of it. I don't
think it'll be as clunky as it is now, but much more like giving commands and
discussion to another human being.

I could be wrong. More kids text message now than ever use their cell phones,
so perhaps a keyboard is necessary as the article says.

------
Revisor
I welcome this new type of device - a small touchscreen with an optional
keyboard (and a mouse?) - warmly. But I would like the future to happen with
open systems, not some US corp acting as a gatekeeper for all my content.

------
daurnimator
I've had an 11" laptop/tablet with a touchscreen for a couple of years now...
(Gigabyte T1125N; I didn't even realise it was a tablet when I bought it)

The novelty of the touchscreen wore off after the first month.

~~~
dsirijus
For almost 4 years I've had and still do as my primary computer a Tablet PC
(HP 2730p), no touch, but with stylus. I still use it and will probably use it
in every aspect of it until it dies on me.

Touch is maybe cool and natural and whatnot, but stylus is useful. I can
actually account for how much money stylus option had brought to my wallet.

------
StavrosK
Does anyone have a good description of the keyboard he describes? I haven't
seen any details so I don't know how the Surface works, I didn't very much
understand the post.

~~~
codeulike
The TouchCover, a very thin pressure sensitive keyboard cover:

[http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-GB/accessories/touch-
cov...](http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-GB/accessories/touch-cover)

There is also a TypeCover, slightly thicker and has physical keys:

[http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-GB/accessories/type-
cove...](http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-GB/accessories/type-cover)

~~~
StavrosK
Oh wow, that's a good idea! Damn. Very nice.

Thanks for the clarification!

~~~
codeulike
Also bear in mind the Surface has a kickstand so it stands up on its own

------
digitalengineer
I don't get it. The Surface is cool becasue of the keyboard? Logitech made the
iPad keyboard some time ago. That's all there is to it to help you type like
on a laptop. Review: [http://9to5mac.com/2012/06/29/review-logitech-ultrathin-
ipad...](http://9to5mac.com/2012/06/29/review-logitech-ultrathin-ipad-
keyboard-cover-will-kickstart-your-transition-from-consumption-to-creation/)

~~~
joe_fishfish
Likewise, Asus' eee Transformer Prime has been around for a while now. While
somewhat pricey for an Android tablet it's still a lot better value than the
Surface.

~~~
taude
I have an external blue tooth keyboard for both my iPad and droid phone. Not
having it integrated into the device is clunky, at best. Especially
considering my keyboard and stand take up more space than the tablet itself.
It's not elegant. Would love to see Apple come out with a sexier, more
integrated, slim keyboard cover. Also, multi-tasking on the iPad blows, hard.
It's better on my Android phone.

My neighbor got an Asus Transformer (the T300 model or what ever it was
called). It's definitely slick and I could type quite well on it. Can't wait
to see how the Win 8 RT app ecosystem plays out, because I like a lot of
things MSFT is doing with their multi-tasking and side-by-side apps. Having
good multi-tasking hot-keys on the keyboard is a big boost in productivity.
Get me a good RDP client on it and I could find it very useful for a lot of
work scenarios.

------
S4M
Couple of thoughts:

\- not everybody can buy like Jeff all the new devices and get rid of the ones
that don't stick, that's rather a special way to choose devices.

\- I like Jeff's reasoning with the upsides and downsides of a lack of
keyboard: the keyboard sort of gets in the way to do spontaneous things but
for now the non-physical keyboards are not good for writing and editing long
chunks of text. So it makes me wonder: wouldn't a tablet with a stylus and
some good hand writing recognition software beat? After all, you can see a
touchscreen as a better mouse - an evolution of the mouse, if you want. And if
you want to write some text, like an email, doing it with your hand writing
doesn't look too bad. Maybe it will really beat the keyboard for writing in
Chinese or Japanese (disclaimer: I can't write yet in those languages). Of
course if you want to use those devices to write code, it will be damn hard to
implement the equivalent of the keyboard shortcuts for an hand-writing system.

~~~
snogglethorpe
> _Maybe it will really beat the keyboard for writing in Chinese or Japanese_

It seems very unlikely, at least with Japanese. In my experience, a typical
Japanese native speaker (who is accustomed to the computer) can enter text
with a keyboard an order of magnitude faster than they can write it. The
difference becomes a bit less stark with tiny keyboards on phones or whatever,
but even there, most people these days are a bit shaky when it comes to
writing complicated kanji anyway... ><

Writing has other benefits of course, e.g. that you can easily enter a
character which that you don't know the pronunciation of (which is why it's
commonly supported for dictionaries), so it's a useful feature to have even if
it's not the primary input method.

------
needle0
No physical keyboard doesn't always mean immediate large-scale writing failure
for all people. I think some people either just get used to it for extensive
prose, or don't.

In Japan, the keitai-novel - novels written by young authors often entirely
using featurephone numpads - has gotten past its initial craze and appears
here to stay as an established genre. Even for other genres, there has been a
recent example of a self-published science fiction novella scoring high in the
just-started Japanese Kindle/Kobo sales rankings, having its majority written
on an iPhone.

I imagine the general populace will gradually get accustomed to using a non-
physical-keyboard device for extensive text input, especially as more kids
emerge experiencing the touchscreen as their first and only input device. (And
the aforementioned author wasn't even that young - IIRC he's around 40!)

------
AndrewDucker
I find the same thing with writing anything longer than a couple of sentences,
and that's the major reason I've stuck to a laptop.

I love my phone - and I could see me wanting a tablet as well as my laptop,
but I definitely want the laptop, so the tablet becomes an "If I have the
spare money" item.

~~~
WiseWeasel
In the six months since I got a tablet, it's my laptop which has become
superfluous. I also have a nice desktop setup, and there is now no reason for
me to use the laptop. When I'm out and about, I can count on one hand the
number of times I thought it would be a good idea to bring the laptop since I
got the tablet, and I never actually used it. A good ergonomic desktop setup
for productivity and a tablet and smartphone for mobile use is all I really
need. If I regularly had to be productive in multiple locations without a
desktop handy I might feel differently, but I don't.

------
archagon
If the world moves to touch computing, what's going to happen to PC gaming?
Traditionally, PC gaming has been popular because PCs get used for many other
things besides gaming. If most people switch to touch devices for their
primary computers, will there still be enough people building gaming rigs for
developers to care about that market? I'm sure the big console manufacturers
would love nothing more than to move everyone over to consoles, but this would
signal the downfall of indie games, certain kinds of first-person shooters,
real-time strategy games, simulators, and many other genres. I would be
devastated to see this happen.

------
elorant
One thing I never see mentioned regarding tablets is what happens if you
suffer from RSI symptoms. Moving your hand around the screen all the time or
typing on hard surfaces sounds like a ticket to more pain.

------
cjoh
It seems like with a keyboard "dock" the Nexus 10 might be the lightest
"retina" laptop available at 25% of the price as the new 13" Retina Macbook
Pro.

~~~
jvm
I believe this is what you are looking for:

<http://eee.asus.com/en/transformer-infinity/features>

I've never used one but a lot of people on HN seem to swear by them.

~~~
cjoh
Except it's _more_ expensive, and the screen and CPU are not as good.

~~~
jvm
I know, I'm waiting for the refresh. All told it's $200 extra counting the
keyboard dock but I consider that totally worth it, especially since there's
an extra battery pack in the keyboard.

------
amorphid
I played with the MS Surface RT yesterday at an MS kiosk in a mall. I really
liked the keyboard option. It was the first touch device I've seen that made
me consider buying a tablet. I didn't like it enough to buy it, but it is an
idea that is definitely headed I'm the right direction. I can't wait for
technology to mature a bit more.

------
fudged71
I will always cringe when I see people use 'laptops' and touching the screen.
It's become instinctually painful.

------
richardlblair
The thing I appreciate the most about this write up is that he blatantly calls
out other reviews/reviewers.

------
shasta
Does anyone make a multi-touch keyboard? This seems like it would be a great
input device for performance users (e.g. programmers). And by "multi-touch
keyboard" I mean a keyboard with physically pressable keys that, when not
pressed, lay flat and can detect finger locations.

~~~
jvm
Apparently the TouchStream was beloved by its users before its designer,
FingerWorks was bought by Apple along with all their patents and the device
was chucked down the memory hole:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks>

------
duggan
I'm still looking forward to Minority Report style interfaces for the desktop,
like <https://leapmotion.com/>

Probably not the best model for mobile interaction, but there's plenty of
seats free at the man-machine interface table.

------
sergiotapia
I want to buy this device, but it's not available in my country (Bolivia). :(

