

Apple rejects Drones+ thrice. App maker looks to Android - jahansafd
http://dawn.com/2012/08/31/after-rejection-from-apple-drone-strike-tracking-app-maker-looks-to-android/

======
nkoren
This is exactly why I switched to Android a year ago.

Smartphones are not trivial consumer electronics devices: they are
sophisticated computers, and increasingly are our primary portals to the wider
world. Any central authority that governs what you are and are not allowed to
do with your smartphone is thus an incredibly powerful political actor. It
would be scary enough if such an actor were governed by the democratic state,
which had at least some theoretical accountability to the general population.
Apple, however, does not have even the pretence of that kind of
accountability.

I'm somebody who has publicly castigated RMS for being an alarmist and a
zealot, but here I have to agree with him 100%: this is an issue with
profoundly negative implications for the development of a healthy and
democratic civil society. If walled gardens like this are going to become
increasingly dominant, then I honestly fear for the future.

~~~
Steko
"which had at least some theoretical accountability to the general population.
Apple, however, does not have even the pretence of that kind of
accountability."

Apple, like any for profit business, is certainly accountable to the market.
I'm indifferent [1] to this app but maybe so many people are outraged that
Apple reconsiders lest it's brand or market share suffer. Again I doubt that's
going to happen. For one, this app works perfectly as a web app. If Apple were
to start blocking the web I think I might join you and head for another
platform but I don't see them doing that.

[1] I have a certain tolerance for crudeness and so I'm fine with this app but
let's imagine there's a whole "morbid app tracking" section of the app store.
Serial killers trackers, Rapes Near Me, etc. Is that something Apple wants to
encourage? Probably not.

~~~
Daishiman
> Apple, like any for profit business, is certainly accountable to the market.
> I'm indifferent [1] to this app but maybe so many people are outraged that
> Apple reconsiders lest it's brand or market share suffer. Again I doubt
> that's going to happen. For one, this app works perfectly as a web app. If
> Apple were to start blocking the web I think I might join you and head for
> another platform but I don't see them doing that.

This is not a good argument. Public pressure for apps of this kind will always
be relatively low, so other interests will almost always take precedence,
which means that states can effectively use their leverage to block
undesirable content with minimal consequences. It is effectively a form of
soft censorship.

~~~
philwelch
That's just as much an argument against democracy. The difference is, in the
market, a 0.1% niche can be sustainable, while in democracy, a 0.1% niche is
meaningless.

~~~
jlgreco
The tyranny of the majority is a very real phenomenon that must always be in
the forefront of your mind when designing a democratic system.

It is an argument against democracy, and it is a _very good_ argument against
democracy.

------
mkhalil
"You're sitting at Starbucks one day, sipping your grande non-fat double shot
mocha latte, reading the Huffington Post on your iPad and idly checking
Twitter on your white iPhone 4S.

And that's when it happens.

A push notification from Drones+: Another drone strike in Pakistan kills 17
suspected militants.

You turn to your friend, but he's already looking at you (he also has a white
iPhone 4S). "They've done it again", you say. "I know, it's absolutely
terrible isn't it? We live in such a terrible oppressive country", he says.

You take another sip of your grande non-fat double shot mocha latte and nod in
solemn agreement with your friend. Having completed the ritual, mutually
acknowledging each others enlightened sense of worldliness, you return to
reading the Huffington Post and checking Twitter.

"Thanks Drones+!", you say silently to yourself." \-- Someones comment before
deletion. To great for deletion.

~~~
mtgx
When a politician or a political party does something very bad, the main
problem is almost always one of awareness. Before anything, people need to
know what he actually did. I bet 99% of people don't know about all the drone
strikes going on.

~~~
wololo
how do we know we're caring about "very bad" things in the right proportions?

\-
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_military_confli...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_military_conflicts)

\- <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_2003-2010>

\-
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_Ja...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_January_-
_June_2012)

\-
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Drone_Strikes_in_Pakist...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Drone_Strikes_in_Pakistan)

\- (if this is really only about deaths,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate>)

------
TillE
"We found that your app contains content that many audiences would find
objectionable, which is not in compliance with the App Store guidelines"

Incredible. They'd better ban all newspapers as well.

~~~
ThJ
Oh for...

While newspapers may report on drone strikes, that's not their primary
function. The primary function of this app is obviously to make a bold
statement about the atrocities of war.

Apple doesn't want to publish an app that is designed to provoke the audience.
Apple can't let just anyone post apps to the App Store, because the whole idea
behind that store is to provide products that meet minimum quality
requirements, so users don't have to search through all the crap to find the
good stuff.

Letting everyone publish would drown out many good apps in favor of shit.
Letting everyone publish often gives you problems with system stability from
poorly witten code, something I've encountered on several Android phones.

The iDevices are NOT computers. They're digital appliances. How often do you
hear people complain that they can't modify the source code of their microwave
or their car. Hardly ever, because expectations are different.

Apple's policies make perfect sense if you view it their products same way you
view a TV. They're not designed for nerds!

~~~
cygx
_The iDevices are NOT computers._

In contrast to 'dumbphones' or some so-called 'feature phones', the current
generation of smartphones _are_ general-purpose computing devices.

~~~
kzrdude
how can you call them that when you are not allowed to install your own
software on those devices? Calling them computers is something I refuse and I
suppose hacker news people understand why.

~~~
cygx
At work, I'm not allowed to install arbitrary software as well - but policy
doesn't make my workstation any less of a computer. Also, not all smartphone
vendors are as anal as Apple, and there are always workarounds [1],[2].

I don't think we actually disagree - it's just a matter of definition; please
note that I intentionally didn't say _(personal) computer_ , but _(general-
purpose) computing device_.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooting_%28Android_OS%29>

[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking>

------
saurik
> “I didn’t really expect anyone to download the app if it was in the App
> Store,” Begley said.

> “That was the point; I don’t think people want to know when a drone
> strikes.”

So, what _was_ the point, then... to waste a bunch of peoples' time?

(edit: To the people downvoting me: mind explaining what the point was? I run
Cydia, the alternative to the App Store that people are saying should host
this instead, and honestly if someone came to me with something like this that
didn't work the first two times and in the end resulted in tons of questions
regarding what kind of response it would have, leading to some massive
discussion, and then I found out that the developer didn't even expect anyone
at all to download it ever and that _was the point_ I'd be really pissed that
he had wasted a ton of peoples' time in the review pipeline working on a
project that was designed with nothing more than the intent to troll the
system.)

~~~
iskander
For you to see the app, think "I don't want to hear about drone strikes", and
then (maybe, hopefully) realize that you're actively filtering out an
undeclared war being waged on your behalf.

~~~
saurik
As much as I spend my time "fighting the good fight" against Apple (and
thereby am not in any way their friend or someone who agrees with many of
their decisions, especially when it comes to the openness of their device),
their marketplace should not be treated as someone's art project: putting
products in the ecosystem whose sole goal is not to be purchased or even
downloaded for free but to make someone browsing the store _feel bad about
themselves_ may be an interesting conceptual goal but it is not something I
believe that anyone, much less Apple, should have to tolerate.

In a perfect world (where Apple did not have sole control), you could download
it from this artist's website or even from a random alternative marketplace,
but in that world this project doesn't work as it doesn't get the attention
(at which point, he may as well not distribute it at all and still claim it
was interesting, as it would be a nearly equivalent result); instead, this is
just an artist attempting to troll Apple in a way that will cause some press,
make even more people feel bad about themselves and, in addition, have some
subset get angry at Apple for not letting them feel bad about themselves
(which brings me back to asking after the point).

Stories like this, then, simply give the people who are trying to get these
devices to be more open a bad name in the larger community, as we end up
associated with all of these projects that large numbers of people find
distasteful. Now, it would be one thing if the majority of the problem with
Apple _were_ things large numbers of people find objectionable or sketchy, but
in fact the jailbroken ecosystem is mostly built out of entirely inoffensive
things like "better multitasking", "improved address books", "download files
in your browser", or even simply "replacement icons that look different".

~~~
kbenson
> As much as I spend my time "fighting the good fight" against Apple (and
> thereby am not in any way their friend or someone who agrees with many of
> their decisions, especially when it comes to the openness of their device),
> their marketplace should not be treated as someone's art project: putting
> products in the ecosystem whose sole goal is not to be purchased or even
> downloaded for free but to make someone browsing the store feel bad about
> themselves may be an interesting conceptual goal but it is not something I
> believe that anyone, much less Apple, should have to tolerate.

Looking at it a different way, it's the perfect free app. Just by seeing it in
the list of applications to download, and the person thinking about whether
they want to install it or not, it's achieved it's purpose.

If the app simply occasionally popped up a notification telling the user to
remember that drone attacks were continuing to happen, or if it simply
displayed a single page when launched reminding the user of drone attacks, and
the developer DID expect it to be downloaded, would that make a difference? If
not, what about something similar that reminded the user to be a good person
or presented a biblical proverb?

The developer seems to want to transfer SOMETHING to the user, even if in this
case user is moved from "those who have downloaded and launched the app" to
"those who are viewing it in the app store".

There may still be other reasons to reject it from your store as well (I can
think of a few, such as guerrilla advertising. The concept IS the message),
but wasting people's time may not be the best of them.

------
notatoad
This seems like a classic case of an app that shouldn't be an app. If you
really want to push out notices to people every time there's a drone strike,
why not send out emails? Or tweets? Or notifications over any of the myriad
instant messaging platforms that already have iOS clients? Not only does it
bypass apple's silly app store restrictions, it offers a much better
experience for a much wider variety of users.

The only reason I see that makes the app store the best place for this is that
app store users like to throw money at silly things they don't need, and the
primary reason this is true is because apple has fostered an environment that
makes it true. If apple feels that the presence of a drone strike app will
make people less inclined to spend money in their store, that is exactly the
sort of decision that this app developer is trying to capitalize on. It just
went the wronG way for him this time.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Shouldn't the consumer decide what apps they want to buy instead of Apple?

~~~
notatoad
No, that's my point. Through careful censorship, Apple has crafted a
marketplace that offends nobody. App developers find this environment
valuable, that's why they are so eager to sell their content in the app store.

If you, as a customer or a developer, don't agree with apple's well documented
policy here, there are alternatives you can choose. Consumers and developers
have overwhelmingly said they either don't care or like the censorship though.

~~~
jrl
"...Apple has crafted a marketplace that offends nobody."

Apple could keep this curated marketplace and at the same time allow
sideloading of applications, like many Android phones do. By taking that
simple step, concerns about censorship would be ameliorated.

------
k-mcgrady
Unfortunately this is one of the risks when you develop for the iOS platform
(although I find it hard to see why this is objectionable. I could understand
the military objecting but it seems he is just curating publicly available
information.).

It doesn't sound like it was a very complex app so hopefully he can port it to
Android or the Web easily and make it available. It sounds useful.

------
api
In the long run I think iOS's more locked down console model is going to hand
the market to Android.

~~~
hristov
Is going to? Try "already did".

~~~
arrrg
Price and variety. That’s the reason why more Android than iOS devices are
selling.

Most certainly not Apple’s App Store policies.

------
mark_l_watson
That really lags.

Software should be protected by free speech guarantees.

It looks like the developers just use open news data for this - nothing wrong
with the doing this.

Pardon the self-plug here but I blogged today about why I hope not to buy
anymore Apple products: [http://blog.markwatson.com/2012/09/can-we-agree-to-
stop-buyi...](http://blog.markwatson.com/2012/09/can-we-agree-to-stop-buying-
apple.html)

~~~
cheald
Software _is_ protected by free speech guarantees. Apple isn't the US
government, and therefore isn't beholden to the First Amendment. I think that
Apple using its position to suppress political speech is bad, but they're
certainly well within their rights to do so.

~~~
mark_l_watson
I totally agree that it is within Apple's legal rights to do what they are
doing. I was just saying that it is also my right to both stop being a
customer and also to try to talk other people out of buying Apple products.

------
SoftwareMaven
Put it up on Cydia in the meantime. Many of us with jail broken phones would
like to see it.

~~~
biafra
Is it really possible to send push notifications to apps from the cydia store?

~~~
SoftwareMaven
I'm not sure, but I would imagine not (but it would be easy to test). However,
there are other alternatives at that point. Somebody may have built a clone
service (Prowl appears to be a Growl-like app, for instance) or the app could
have a small, always running piece that polled on occasion (not ideal for
battery life reasons).

I agree the real app store would be better for many reasons.

------
klawed
If Begley can get himself unmarried from the need for push notifications, this
could totally be a mobile web app running on any smart phone with a decent
browser. And as someone else suggested, notifications could be tweets or
emails. I'm curious as to what he believes the value-add of push notifications
are (as opposed to having the freshest data retrieved and live updates while
the app is running).

~~~
lawnchair_larry
That wouldn't work at all. You'd have to be sitting there with your phone
unlocked, in view of that page on Safari, watching it until your battery died
(which would happen quickly).

~~~
klawed
I suppose that wouldn't work at all if you need immediate updates of drone
attacks (so that you can respond in some way?) I'm questioning the need for
push notifications rather than trying to propose an exact equivalent.

~~~
schrijver
I suppose the point of it is that your phone buzzes when a drone strikes.
That‘s the dramaturgy of it. A buzzing phone tells you: something has
happened. But this time it’s not your alarm clock, or your friend texting:
it’s knowing that a bom has dropped. This then gives an eerie sense of
awareness of/relation to something that normally is far away and abstract.

(of course, the strike was not really that instant, but that at least is the
suggestion of it, by linking it to the instantaneous feeling push
notifications).

~~~
tripzilch
My god!! That's not only offensive, it's disturbing! Confronting! Mildly
unsettling, even! Can't they just hurl birds at pigs, like everybody else?

------
Create
iOS privacy app returns as a web app

Bitdefender says that Apple removed the application, which previously was a
paid product, from the iOS App Store in June, but hasn't given it a reason for
doing so. A potential cause could have been that Clueful tried to auto-detect
a user's installed iOS apps so it could then display information about them.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4460509>

------
logn
Is there a delay built in to marking drone strikes? I could see the US gov't
not wanting a realtime feed of drone locations.

~~~
jlgreco
Unless the DoD has an RSS feed somewhere that is handing out realtime data on
drone strikes that the developer has somehow gotten a hold of, I cannot
possibly see how this application would get information to "baddies" any
faster than they could have otherwise gotten it.

------
tomjen3
Don't. Write it in Javascript and serve it around the store with no
ristrictions. That way you can later wrap it in phonegab and ship it to both
platforms.

~~~
sixcorners
Can you push notifications to the device from Javascript?

~~~
lukifer
There's a PhoneGap plugin that does push notifications.

~~~
klawed
A PhoneGap app is still going to need to go through the appstore. But, as
others have suggested, tweets with a link to his hosted web app would be
perfectly adequate.

------
drivebyacct2
It's sad that everyone of these threads has the same three people defending
Apple no matter what the reason or circumstance. Come on. It's embarrassing to
watch.

~~~
jlgreco
It wouldn't even be so bad if it were not so repetative and inane. Criticism
to the effect of _"Apple_ shouldn't _do this"_ always gets _"They are allowed
to"_ as a response.

Who honestly finds that insightful?

~~~
netcan
This is the nature of online communities. A lot of threads are debates. A lot
of them are, when reduced to the underlying issue like Apple censor apps, the
same debate. If you have the same debate enough times within a short enough
time period, it gets repetative and inane.

Depending on the individual case (drones+ vs celebrity arses) the discussion
might be a little different "at the core" arguments are equally valid
regardless of the case.

consider:

"At least when governments have this power they are theoretically accountable
to publics, constitutions and ule of law"

"Apple is accountable to consumers and the market"

" _If Apple started featuring an App that let you dress up Obama in racist
costumes there would be crowds and boycotts and stores would stop_ "

" _company that has absolute control on a market exerts its influence on
political grounds that effectively stifle freedom of the press_ "

* * *

You could copy paste this in 50% of threads about app store rejections. Maybe
we are done talking about app store policies. Maybe there is a benefit to
repeating the exercise even if we don't get anywhere new.

