
Pizza And Ramen Are Hurting Your Startup - bmull
http://blog.500startups.com/2011/01/06/pizza-and-ramen-are-hurting-your-startup/
======
cletus
This is a tough one but I have several thoughts:

1\. Fact is, in your teens and early 20s your body can digest pretty much
anything. Eat a bowl of cereal in the morning (and I mean something like
oatmeal or raisin bran rather than some sugary crap) and it barely matters
what else you eat (other than calorific content);

2\. Eating the same thing every day gets real old real fast;

3\. There is an investment required in cooking in terms of equipment, etc;

4\. Cooking takes time between shopping, cleaning and the actual cooking.
That's time that could be better spent doing many other things.

5\. Even getting something for lunch can be a huge time sink and minimally
takes half an hour unless you're eating out of a hot dog stand right outside
your office.

This is why I'm a huge fan of companies providing a cafeteria or some find of
catered meals. Of course, this requires both being a certain size and
obviously costs money but, I would argue, the cost is well worth it in terms
of:

\- variety of meals \- not needing to shop, cook or clean \- time saved in not
going out for lunch and other transit \- time that can be spent talking over
work-related stuff while eating with your colleagues \- other intangible
benefits such as the team-building aspects of socializing with your colleagues

These benefits are so huge I think that it'd be worth having everyone chip in
to pay for something like this and would probably be an economic form of
eating.

Now I'm lucky enough to work somewhere that has almost legendary catered meals
(Google), which must cost them a fortune (eg dinner was steamed mussels, beef
stroganoff, garlic whipped potatoes, green beans, steamed broccoli and a
pineapple and blueberry salad, and that's just what I had) but IMHO they make
their money back in terms of employee satisfaction and saved time on all of
the above things.

Fact is I have more variety of food than I'd ever cook myself (or probably
even buy).

That of course is a cafeteria type situation. Like I said, on a smaller scale,
catered meals are a cost-effective doing this on a smaller scale. Your best
bet would probably be to hire a cook rather than outsourcing the entire
process (eg someone in or just out of culinary school).

~~~
lzell
> mussels, beef stroganoff, garlic whipped potatoes, green beans, steamed
> broccoli and a pineapple and blueberry salad

Hm, that sure beats the spinach and cottage cheese I just mixed together and
called a "salad". But hey, dinner took 40 seconds. Now a quick check of HN,
and back to work I go...

~~~
aw3c2
You should try taking a 10-15 minute break (no media allowed). It will refresh
you and give you more productivity for the rest of your work day.

------
patio11
Relatedly: I hate, hate, hate going to the gym. However, it is the most
productive use of one hour a day I can think of. I have more energy and get
more done when I go, and the benefits appear to compound in those months when
I'm very consistent about going. (Can one of you guys invent a way for this to
suck less? I'll pay you money. At the moment I just give myself EpicWin points
for going, trying to trigger the WoW neurotransmitters...)

~~~
Dylanlacey
In all seriousness? Why not enter into a social contract with me. I will repay
you a percentage of a lump sum for every time you go to the gym. When you
don't go, I'll donate it to the RSPCA instead.

Deal?

~~~
patio11
Money is empirically less effective at motivating me than magic purple pixels.
Seriously, the subjective experience of being offered $X00,000 was a lot less
fun than most WoW loot upgrades. Offering me $10 of my own money won't get me
to go to the gym.

~~~
Dylanlacey
What about getting someone to change your WoW password unless you exercise 4
out of 7 days?

~~~
patio11
I quit WoW a while ago, and restarting WoW to get me to go to the gym more
often sounds like it will be as effective as addressing tooth decay with an
icepick. But if you can capture the magic of "Ding! Gratz!" for me when I'm at
the gym, I'd pay you a substantial portion of the hmm $6k I have spent at my
gym.

~~~
Dylanlacey
Ahh, I think I smell what you're shoveling, the intrinsic motivation is
missing for the gym because, well, all you get is sweaty.

------
ojbyrne
I totally agree with the argument. I totally disagree with the cost estimates.
Unless you're actually going to the grocery store every day (and you need to
incorporate that into the amount of time involved), vegetables go bad.

For example, the amount of cilantro they sell at the grocery store is for a
dozen servings of this meal.

I just finished throwing out pretty well every ingredient (except the chicken)
given in that recipe, because I was away for 3 days!

Cooking for one sucks!

~~~
sachitgupta
Buy frozen vegetables. Seriously, it may not be the _best_ choice, but they
don't go bad, and its so easy to make them!

~~~
matwood
I agree. Frozen veggies are great. The only thing I have read is to not heat
them up in the microwave (supposedly it saps out some of the nutrients). Just
get a cheap steamer and toss them in there.

The best thing about frozen veggies is the various mixes you can get. I
usually buy a giant bag of brocoli and then a giant bag of whatever mix I'm
feeling.

~~~
shadowpwner
Unless you have a credible source for your "microwaves destroy nutrients more
than other cooking methods", I'd disagree strongly with you. Stopping
psuedosciencific rumors in their tracks. :)

~~~
matwood
It was Alton Brown who said it on Good Eats. A quick search seem says that
'properly' cooking veggies in the microwave is fine. Still looking for a
definition of 'properly' though. I'm guessing it just means don't overcook as
many people do when heating things in the microwave.

Boiling in water seems to be one of the worst methods, which makes sense
because the water can easily leach all of the nutrients[1].

Everyone does agree the best way is simply to steam them.

[1][http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/250016/how_to_cook_...](http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/250016/how_to_cook_vegetables_without_losing.html?cat=51)

 _A recent study conducted in the U.K. showed boiling vegetables that are
members of the cruciferous family, including cabbage, broccoli, and brussel
sprouts, significantly reduces their anticancer properties._

And MW specifically

 _If you choose to microwave your vegetables, use as little water and as short
a cooking time as possible to minimize loss of vitamins._

------
cgshaw
This is something that doesn't get stated enough. Great link.

For example, Richard Branson credits working out and staying in shape with
much of his success.

I kind of see physical fitness on two sides--internal and external.

Internally, if you're in better shape you're capable of performing better for
longer periods of time. Less time sick, etc.

Externally, there is a lot of social science that thinner, i.e. more
attractive, people are viewed as more disciplined, get better promotions, make
more money, etc.

That doesn't mean you can't be successful as someone that's not attractive or
thin, but all things constant, why put yourself at a disadvantage? I say all
of this not as someone who is thin, but someone who's taken a prolonged
approach to being in better shape. When I graduated college I was at 255, and
now I'm at 200. I could stand to lose some more weight, but the effects of
eating better, working out and sleeping better have been of immeasurable
benefit.

------
ido

        As a note, I love unhealthy food. It’s 
        delicious and I’m not saying it’s evil. 
        I’m just saying it’s not a productive 
        addition to a 14-hour, high stress work 
        day.
    

Also: don't do 14h of high stress work a day on a regular basis.

------
ry0ohki
Kind of a dearth of facts here... "The biggest reason is by only fueling your
body with shit, you’re also fueling your brain with shit" I'd like to see some
kind of evidence to support that.

I'd be all for preparing the meal he suggests, but with shopping, prep,
cooking, and cleanup it's a significant time investment compared to pizza so
I'd like evidence it's doing my startup better.

~~~
brown9-2
You want evidence that the quality of food you eat affects how you feel and
the quality of your brain activity?

~~~
btmorex
I do.

Unless you're starving, your brain pretty much only runs only on glucose. That
means that whatever you eat, good/bad fresh/packaged, whatever, just gets
converted to glucose.

Assuming you're getting basic levels of required vitamins, I don't see any
reason why one diet would be beneficial over another in terms of brain
performance.

~~~
m4wk3r
right. lets run a case study. go buy yourself a 50lb bag of sugar, a years
supply of multivitamins, and report back in a year with how that worked out
for you.

~~~
nlco
Well as a college student who went on a 2 month coco pebble binge (and only
ate that because of sheer laziness), I didn't feel significant effects on
brain power. But it does trash your body and leaves you feeling lethargic and
lose motivation to actually do anything productive. I think the latter effects
are just as dangerous as reduced "brain effectiveness". (this is just my
experience, certainly not any scientifically proven study)

~~~
jey
> leaves you feeling lethargic and lose motivation to actually do anything
> productive.

That's "reduced brain effectiveness" too.

------
pgroves
The habit of cooking your own healthy meals is a fine way to improve your
productivity in just an hour or two a day plus saturday mornings at the
farmer's market. The problem is the hour or two a day, not the cost.

There are a million ways to spend an hour a day on something to improve your
startup.

~~~
jamesteow
"There are a million ways to spend an hour a day on something to improve your
startup."

Maybe. Personally, I know if I'm going to block off time to do a certain thing
(such as cooking a new recipe then I work more efficiently.

Not to mention it's entirely possible to make one large batch of something
that could feed you for a couple meals.

------
batterseapower
Personally I ate nothing but processed, microwaveable meals for 3 years during
university. I find it hard to believe that this significantly affected my
performance since I still managed to get the best result in my year (twice)
and second best (once). I also failed to get fat or develop any health
problems at all.

So you can colour me sceptical about the true value of eating "healthy" or
freshly-cooked food.

~~~
cap4life
Wait until you turn 30.

~~~
VMG
Moving the goalpost. The blog post says that it affects your current
performance, not your future performance.

------
stretchwithme
very true. but all the shopping and prep (despite the claim that it is easy)
is a big pain in the ass. I'd gladly pay twice as much for healthy fare that
was convenient as fast food.

Fortunately, the company I work for provides incredibly fresh organic salad
that's as cheap as fast food.

------
Dylanlacey
I love this thread. Mainly because I am a total food geek.

I have to say that yes, getting started is a pain, and yes, the easy way
seems, well, easier, but better food is a HELL YES reason to overcome the
first two.

Just like your startup, starting to get a healthy kitchen going requires a lot
of investment before you start to see any outcome. Deep Breath. You're going
to need to go... Shopping.

But, once you're boot strapped with supplies, regular top ups is all that's
required. I feel better when I eat crap less then I eat well. It's sorta
annoying, but not once you get into the rhythm of it.

Provided food is a great idea if it's good quality. Providing junk at the
workplace just exacerbates the issue. That said, it's not too hard to prepare
extra meals at home and bring them to the office, especially if you can
convince your founder/self to install a chest freezer. Sure, fresh stuff is
usually better, but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Microwaves rock when you don't use them as a magic-1-button-make-hot machine.
You can cook grains, make sauces, steam things and even do some poaching in a
Nucleonic Oven, as long as you're not totally impatient. If I can stand to
wait, you sure as hell can.

Not having greasy fingers helps prevent your keyboard and mouse from getting
manky, and stops colouring leaching out of where your wrists rest on your
lappy:P

------
jasonwilk
Nice article. If you want something cheaper than Raman that is better for you,
just go to the Asian grocery store. You can get a pound of bok choy for less
than $1. Pick up some tofu and some chicken broth (and noodles). Boil all that
for about 1.5 minutes and now you have yourself a sodium free, healthy meal
that costs less than the disgusting Cup of Noodles or any fast food you might
be eating.

~~~
mikeklaas
A "sodium free" meal that includes chicken broth? Do you know how much salt is
in even low sodium broth?

~~~
Dylanlacey
sudo make chickenbroth

Sodium? Last time I made it, approximately... None. With the exception of what
was in the chicken and the veggies.

Seriously, it's not hard. Slow cooker, veggies, chicken frame and water. 12
hours, strain, freeze.

------
sliverstorm
_$4-7 per meal_

I agree with you and all, and am working hard on eating healthy myself, but do
you have any idea how much ramen $7 can buy you?

I'm certain there are people out there who would have trouble affording $4-7
per meal & funding the early stages of a company. And don't forget you have to
own the facilities to cook properly- ramen can be made in a paper bowl with a
$5 water heater or $20 microwave.

~~~
defen
You could also buy 20 pounds of sugar - the point is that ramen is actively
bad for you and you shouldn't be eating it except in the most dire of
circumstances.

------
jules
Is pizza that bad? I home cook all pizza ($1-$2 per pizza), and it doesn't
seem too bad if you look at the ingredients. Pizza + salad seems perfectly
healthy.

Flour + tomato + cheese + onion + garlic + olive oil + whatever you put on
your pizza.

~~~
chime
Flour is what causes me to gain weight. I cut out breads and pasta and I lose
weight, no matter how little exercise I get.

~~~
jules
Fat is what causes me to gain weight. I cut out fat and I lose weight. This is
no surprise that you lose weight when you your weight was stable and cut
something, anything with calories out.

That said, if your goal is to lose weight then pizza may not be for you. But
that wasn't the goal posed in the article.

------
statictype
Site has been slashdotted/fireballed/ycombinatored... Anyone have a mirror?

------
JCThoughtscream
It should seriously not take much more time than it takes to warm up a nasty
styrofoam cup of noodles to cook something cheap, easy and - above all -
tasty.

The first step is to get a rice steamer. The second step is to realize that
you can, in fact, prep your vegetables, meats and sauces ahead of time and
just leave them in the fridge. Feeling hungry? Pour a little oil into a pan,
toss in some ingredients, and voila - stirfry in no time at all. Grab a bowl,
stuff some rice into it, and top it over - lunch!

It's more cost-effective than takeout, at the very least. Timesink may be an
issue - if you aren't working with one or two cofounders. If you are, the
minimal amount of competence to use a rice steamer and heat up pre-prepped
ingredients means you /should/ be able to safely rotate cooking duties without
excessive risk to your health.

Or, at least, less risk than a diet of salty ramen and oily pizza.

------
jdp23
"The biggest reason is by only fueling your body with shit, you’re also
fueling your brain with shit."

You are what you eat.

~~~
cllabs
I guess it's all about balance. A lot of these foods get eaten because they
are quick and simple and easy to distribute round the office for late night
food runs. I don't see many late night salad delivery joints. I've been guilty
of it myself far too often.

That said I completely agree with the article. There's no point working/eating
yourself to death if you can't enjoy the proceeds. Take some time out from
work/coding. Cook a nice healthy meal and follow up with some exercise.

------
alexyim
Unfortunately, this just made me want some ramen and pizza.

------
1337p337
I like the recipe in the article; it's easy to cook, and it's what I often
have for dinner: lightly fried meat and vegetables, although I usually have
rice rather than beans. But for things that I plan on heating later, I prefer
things that taste as good when heated up later, like borscht and other dense
soups, beef stroganoff, curry (I'd sent my Japanese curry recipe to enough
people that I put it on github: <https://gist.github.com/57898> ).

------
durbin
your server going down is hurting your startup

------
tzs
What's wrong with pizza? It's essentially bread + toppings. Bread can be a
fine healthy food, and if you pick healthy toppings, you can have a healthy
pizza.

I think this would be better advice. First, spend a weekend reading "In
Defense of Food" by Michael Pollan. The take away from that is the healthy
eating is a systematic thing, not a matter of individual ingredients.

Second, watch a lot of episodes of "Good Eats" on the Food Network.

~~~
astrange
Ordering pizza gets you tons of cheese and a crust with a lot of sugar in it.
Making your own is fine…though I can't remember what's in the frozen pizza
crusts, or how good they are.

------
jonah
NY Times article about cooking quickly, simply, and economically:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/02/weekinreview/02bittman.htm...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/02/weekinreview/02bittman.html?_r=1)
(With recipes.)

------
crazymik3
This could be useful:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/bachelorchef/comments/ewcua/pdf_thou...](http://www.reddit.com/r/bachelorchef/comments/ewcua/pdf_thought_you_guys_might_like_the_reddit/)

------
tt
We are working on a startup that directly solves this problem of needing to
eat healthy food, yet too busy to cook, and too tired to order or eat out.

See <http://gomunchery.com>

------
petercooper
And TV, and playing too many games, and commenting too much on HN.. oops..

------
awolf
Absolutely agree: eating a healthy diet is worth both the money and the time.
Longevity is extremely important. Life is a marathon even if you only see it
as a series of sprints.

------
spacemanaki
pg's Rice and Beans for 2n comes to mind:

<http://www.paulgraham.com/ramenprofitable.html#f1n>

------
light3
I would through in some red meat too for the protein

~~~
code_duck
Beans have higher protein content by weight than beef.

~~~
awolf
Most plant-derrived protein sources have an incomplete profile of amino acids.
Humans have eight essential amino acids (amino acids that we must get from the
diet as we cannot synthesize them) that are plentiful in animal sources and
lacking to various degrees in plant sources. Plant sources of protein, even
when combined to provide all the essential amino acids, are too heavy in
carbohydrate, irritate the gut, and steal vitamins and minerals from the body
via anti-nutrients.

~~~
kondro
Hence why the only semi-healthy vegans I know are those that cheat.

~~~
rue
I wonder if naturally occurring animal deaths would be sufficient to provide
meat for the planet otherwise living on a vegan diet?

~~~
code_duck
Some people don't want to eat meat for ethical reasons, others because they
think it's bizarre. Would you eat a dog, a horse, or another human if you
didn't have to worry about the conditions of it's death? Probably not. Many
vegans and vegetarians feel the same way about chickens, cows and pigs.

