
Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA - cft
https://www.craigslist.org/about/FOSTA
======
DannyBee
This is not surprising, but sad. Years ago, i was dragged (i was the only
engineer in the local office) into a whitehouse (or maybe it was state
department, i can't remember) sponsored working group on online sex
trafficking.

The non-profits dedicated to fighting this, while seemingly well-intentioned,
were completely and totally unwilling to see any other perspective or try to
find shared ground. It was scorched earth approach or nothing. Literally to
the tune of "we should be burning down craigslist entirely, and yahoo, google,
microsoft, etc should be required to be scanning your search history and
reporting you to the police if they suspect you might be sex trafficking".

It was frustrating enough that two of the other participants literally walked
out.

The only thing mildly surprising to me here is that it took them ~10 years to
get the house to do it.

~~~
SeeDave
In defense of the "scorched earth approach or nothing" folks: from my
perspective... it's a completely and totally human response to faceless,
blameless, unapproachable (from their perspective) perpetrators and
facilitators of systematic abuse and exploitation of innocent and vulnerable
people.

If you've ever felt frustrated at an IVR system for routine tasks such as
banking, restaurant reservations, canceling a gym membership, checking a gift
card balance, etc. then you may understand where the "scorched earth" people
are coming from when it comes to advocating for dozens, if not hundreds, of
innocent victims who have been raped, exploited, and brutalized.

That said, I really wish that I could come forward with a solution to the
online sex trafficking problem.

~~~
anigbrowl
Great, like the trade is going to suddenly end. All they've achieved is 'out
of sight, out of mind.' I'm quite annoyed about this, both because it affects
numerous friends of mine who are sex workers and are now scrambling to find
alternatives to working on the street, where they're far less safe, and on a
more pedestrian level because I met my wife on a Craigslist date years ago.

Life is too short to make excuses for stupid behavior.

~~~
edraferi
I've been thinking about this a lot this morning.

I think almost every vice would be less damaging to society if it was in the
open. Polite society doesn't want to see sex work or drugs, but they still
exist. Hiding them makes things much worse for the people directly involved.
It's trafficked kids with broken immigration status who are more scared of the
cops than their captors. It's drug addicts who OD on tainted drugs.

Bring it all into the open. Have the government certify providers directly.
Crack down on unauthorized middlemen. Tax it. Use the taxes to pay for
programs that help people leave when they realize they can have a better life
without it.

We need the classic American Market here: free trade enabled by regulation
that ensures market quality and protects participants from fraud.

Unfortunately I don't think this is politically possible. It would take a
long, well funded campaign. The people who are willing to do that kind of work
are motivated by stories of individual tragedy and focus on draconian
solutions like this mess of a law. The people who would push for openness can
make more money elsewhere, and don't want to make their name "Advocating for
drugs & sex."

Frustrating.

~~~
manofmanysmiles
I've been thinking about this peripherally for a while, especially the bigger
picture when some law is passed, and it seems exceptionally out of touch with
the reality, and does more harm than good.

A depressing thought: What if we apply something akin to Occam's Razor? What
if the lawmakers want to hurt the people struggling at at the lower rungs of
society? To me it feels unlikely it is intentional in most cases, or
conscious, but what if on some level, there is a motivation to hurt these
people who they feel are inferior? You can easily apply Hanlon's razor here as
a counter-argument, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm not attributing malice
to any individual actor, but to something more subtle, e.g. unconscious bias.

Maybe subconsciously, there's a force that's trying to destroy people who are
for whatever reason unable thrive in society? I guess maybe this force IS
society?

Apologies if this is a bit vague and short. I just wanted to share this
thought in case it resonated with anyone else. I'll be happy to expand upon
this thought if there's interest.

~~~
mtreis86
"The state is the institution or complex of institutions which bases itself on
the availability of forcible coercion by special agencies of society in order
to maintain the dominance of a ruling class, preserve the existing property
relations from basic change and keep all other classes in subjection." Hal
Draper

~~~
manofmanysmiles
Thanks, that’s very succinctly put!

Besides Hal Draper, what authors would you recommend to further explore this
thought? I’m educated as a programmer and only beginning to deliberately
explore ideas outside of science and engineering.

~~~
ibeckermayer
Reason and Liberty by Shayne Wissler. It can be downloaded for free online.

~~~
manofmanysmiles
Thanks everyone, I'll do some reading! Maybe I'll even follow up in a month or
so. No promises.

Replying at the end of the thread because I think that makes the most sense.

------
downandout
I just read the text of this bill. The way it reads, the entire online dating
industry should be closing its doors...tonight. CEOs of these companies face
penalties of up to 25 years in prison. Why were there not massive protests
over this? I had never heard of this bill before today.

~~~
narrator
Meanwhile, net neutrality, which wasn't even policy until the Obama
administration gets huge press all over the place. What happened to Silicon
Valley's political activism?

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
Good question... almost like they might not be telling you the truth when the
say they are riled up about X because of Y. The silence on Z is deafening.

------
extralego
It seems this and the new Youtube/Reddit bans would push more of this
communication to the dark web and/or other private communication channels. I
don't think I am comfortable with that. But, hopefully it leads to more
support and push for privacy and decentralization.

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-21/youtube-b...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-21/youtube-
bans-firearm-sales-and-how-to-videos-prompting-backlash)

[https://motherboard.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/ne9v5k/reddit...](https://motherboard.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/ne9v5k/reddit-
bans-subreddits-dark-web-drug-markets-and-guns)

~~~
abritinthebay
There _is_ something to be said for making a discouraged activity harder to
do.

Yes, it pushes these people underground but in a sense that is _good_ as it
makes it harder for them and harder to access them. In return it’s not much
harder for authorities to infiltrate and there’s less non-illicit activity to
filter.

Not perfect, but it’s not always bad.

~~~
superkuh
You are operating under the premise here that what youtube/reddit have banned
is something illegal and immoral. Reddit literally banned forums for posting
good deals they found for firearms and accessories online. And youtube is
banning channels that feature people enjoying their completely legal hobby
enjoyed by hundreds of millions of people.

No, the problem here is that governments and large institutions are using
truly evil things to convince people to ban completely innocuous things for
commercial reasons. This is online gentrification for the corps. And for
government, using kids/terrorism/communists is the oldest trick in the book to
violate the rights of their citizens.

~~~
abritinthebay
Who gives a shit about Reddit? I’m talking in context of the law that is
mentioned in the original article

~~~
castis
The person you replied to had mentioned reddit in their comment so it was kind
of a natural progression.

They're saying that the scenario where reddit removed some subreddits for
wholly subjective reasons is similar to this craigslist thing.

~~~
abritinthebay
Which it isn’t. At all. One is mandated by law and the other is self imposed
community standards.

------
smadge
Tonight tens of thousands sex workers are devestated that their safer tool for
finding clients is shutting down. Exploitative sex trafficking will continue
unabated, but independent working people will be forced into more dangerous
situations.

~~~
Noos
LOL at craigslist being "safe." That site was always sketchy as hell.

~~~
lagadu
Yeah, and without it around they'll have to move to far sketchier platforms or
streetwalking. Good job making it worse.

------
rmrm
I find a somewhat irresolvable issue on the liberal viewpoint of female
sexuality and using sex to sell things (or selling sex directly)

I see a lot of push back and negativity towards things like "booth babes" and
other models that are employed to use their sexuality to help sell something.
And I dont really argue with that, from a consumer angle. But I do also hear
and feel for those models, who likely rightly say, why am I now out of a job?
How is that empowering?

On the other hand, I think typically liberal viewpoint would be that
prostitution should be made more legal and out of the shadows, and of course
people can sell sex. Which I also dont disagree with.

As it relates to laws and rights, it isn't in conflict - they both should be
legal. But the underlying feelings and opnions about them, it seems somewhat
unresolved. There seems to be more hatred towards the objectification of
women, but not targeted at say strippers. It doesn't seem totally coherent.

~~~
erikpukinskis
In this case the typical liberal and the radical liberal are split, much as
with trans identity.

To sum it up with too broad of a brush, liberal (mainstream) feminists think
sex work is positive, and that only coercion to sex should be criminalized.

Radical feminists see sex “work” as an extreme outlier amongst sex trafficking
which by their measure constitutes the vast majority of the sex trade. They
would consider a woman who was raped and coerced into the trade as a child,
but who has adjusted and now verbally “consents” (by far the typical case) as
a sex trafficking victim.

So the radical and liberal feminist agree that person is doing nothing
illegal. But many of the radical feminists would support criminal charges for
the Johns and the pimps/clubs/etc in the vast majority of cases.

~~~
kakarot
Ok sure, now what about the people that _weren 't_ raped and just got into
prostitution the same way a stripper decides that life is for them? Are they
still victims?

A radical feminist (in my experience) will still say yes, effectively robbing
these women of their own personal agency and shaming their choices.

That is an important distinction, and your comparison is watered down by
ignoring it.

~~~
erikpukinskis
That's very true. Thanks for the addition. I'll try to hold that experience
more central next time I bring it up.

------
Method-X
I'd encourage folks here to check out ZeroNet
([https://zeronet.io](https://zeronet.io)). It's a cool little project I've
been following for the past couple years that's attempting to decentralize the
Internet. It's not very popular but surprisingly it has 11.5k stars on GitHub
([https://github.com/HelloZeroNet/ZeroNet](https://github.com/HelloZeroNet/ZeroNet)).

~~~
pavel_lishin
Can I use your service to promote or facilitate the prostitution of another
person? Asking for a friend.

~~~
oehpr
zeronet isn't really that anonymous, you're looking for tor or i2p

~~~
pavel_lishin
You miss my point, which is that ZeroNet could fall under this idiot blanket
law.

------
quotemstr
I am fucking sick and fucking tired of people interfering with the free choice
of individuals in any effort to "fix" society and "help" people.

Lawmakers and advocates, have some epistemic humility and acknowledge that
your own perspective may be mistaken. Not everything is oppression. Not every
activity is injustice. Sometimes, people just fucking disagree.

~~~
rpearl
The goal of the legislation in question is specifically to help individuals
that have been coerced, against their free will, into sex trafficking.

It is not about voluntary interactions between consenting adults.

The legislation might be misguided or ineffective--I haven't really looked
into it--but it very definitely isn't about restricting the free choice of
individuals.

~~~
valuearb
It’s completely limiting free choice and voluntary interactions between
consenting adults. A huge personals section just got shut down. Unless you
think 100% of personal ads are coerced sex trafficking, which would be rather
crazy opinion.

If you truly wanted to curb sex trafficking, you’d legalize prostitution, not
drive it farther underground.

~~~
Buge
rpearl never claimed that it wasn't limiting free choice. rpearl claimed the
intention wasn't to limit free choice.

Intent and actual outcome are two completely different things.

~~~
disiplus
it's still limiting if you define it to broadly. if i defined a law that said
every owner of a home will be punished if somebody in that home smoked weed or
did drugs.

and airbnb is gone, and so on.

~~~
Buge
Neither I nor rpearl claimed it wasn't limiting.

The intent was to protect people who are being harmed against their will (held
in sex slavery against their will).

Of course the actual effect of the law is different than the intent. The
actual effect is limiting.

~~~
kcanini
Do you think the actual intent is closer the stated intent, or to the actual
results?

We're talking about seasoned politicians, not naive dreamers.

~~~
noxToken
The actual intent probably is closer to the stated intent. The actual results
just don't matter to them.

------
tcskeptic
Pushing this market off the internet and back onto the streets will increase
the murder rate of sex workers. This bill will literally kill people. See
Scott Cunningham at Baylor who specializes in the economics of Sex Work and
other criminal markets.

------
JohnJamesRambo
This is completely bizarre, we can't go down this route with the internet. It
is madness.

~~~
thrden
Unfortunately we've had a very poor week for internet freedom. However much of
it has been the result of corporate overreach.

This week: Reddit bans Cigar, beer and Alchohol trading subreddits, toy bb gun
sales, and gun related coupon clippers

Youtube (and facebook?) banned Channels featuring guns they deem
inappropriate. Including videos regarding proper safety and maintenance.

It has become clear to be that the internet is naturally monopolistic in a way
physical institutions are not. One simply cannot move their gun channel, or
the cigar trading forum to other sites and have a decent chance of maintaining
even 10% of their customers. What happens if google also decides that they
don't want these things to show up in search results. We need regulation to
ensure that these platforms remain open for all types of users, not regulation
that forces more content off these platforms.

~~~
delbel
I screwed up and accidentally chambered two 12ga shells in my Remington 870,
it was a potential dangerous accident but found video to help me safely un-f
the situation. Also I found a "bug" that allowed me to shoot, under a strange
condition, my 9mm when the safety was on. Found out what not to do on youtube
to avoid that situation. Also couldn't figure out what this knob was on my
10/22, turns out its a critical feature after finding it on youtube. This
sucks I won't be able to find this type of information literally typing the
gun model and the name of the problem to see a video to help me out as easily
as yesterday.

~~~
odammit
Go start GunTube and make a buck or two!

I was reading earlier today people are uploading their gun vids to PornHub.

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-21/youtube-b...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-21/youtube-
bans-firearm-sales-and-how-to-videos-prompting-backlash)

~~~
amyjess
> I was reading earlier today people are uploading their gun vids to PornHub.

Funny thing is, my coworker and I were talking about this earlier today... we
ended up agreeing that it wouldn't be surprising at all if PornHub ends up
creating an SFW site under a different name (VidHub?) for things like this.

------
remailer404
Wow! I met my wife just over 7 years ago there, and our 2nd kid is due in a
few months. Hard to believe that the personals section is gone.

~~~
narrator
Since I'm a relatively old guy, I'll tell you how it used to work. Before cell
phones, online dating and apps, the way people met people was through friends,
or at work, or god forbid, randomly approaching a stranger and introducing
oneself, usually at a nightclub or bar, but sometimes at a supermarket or
cafe. Rejection happened in one's face publicly in front of other people!

~~~
smadge
Someone just shared their heartwarming tale about how they met their spouse
using craigslist personals and you have the audacity to tell them that their
story is illegitimate because "back in my day" people met differently? Have
some heart and recognize that their story of how they met is legitimate,
cherished, and deserves protection.

~~~
narrator
I'm just trying to provide some historical information for millenials.

~~~
rndmind
I'm a millenial and even I think dating apps are for pussies.

------
trhway
97-2 in Senate. Probably only sex and drugs have such universal magical power
over politicians of all colors.

~~~
TeMPOraL
If only NASA could say that they found on Mars a new substance that probably
eliminates the desire to do drugs... We'd be having a golden age of space
exploration now.

~~~
theandrewbailey
If NASA discovered oil on Mars, we'd be there years ago. (Something liberation
something something...)

~~~
TeMPOraL
FWIW, it's raining natural gas on Titan.

~~~
vibrio
...and raining diamonds on Saturn and Jupiter. Surely there is a frothy Series
A to be had here somewhere.

~~~
bduerst
Forget hydrocarbons and diamonds, the Helium-3 mining is the next candidate
for the hype curve.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I thought we're already past He-3 hype?

------
post_break
How soon will reddit follow? The great purge has started. Guns removed from
YouTube and reddit. Now meet up portions are being nuked.

~~~
dahdum
They’ve already started banning all the subs about escorts, prostitution,
sugar daddies, etcetera today in response.

Also subs like BeerTrade, BazaarMarkets , and other marketplaces. Say goodbye
to an era.

I’m sure many more will get the axe over time.

~~~
flamedoge
decentralized network can't come soon enough. I foresee YC, Reddit, Youtube,
FB, and alike get supplanted by technology that has no ownership.

~~~
abritinthebay
Every single decentralized version of those sites has died a death due to a)
being pretty awful b) attracting completely terrible users as it’s base c)
terrible user experience.

What do you see changing?

~~~
adventured
Decentralized is the ultimate tech fantasy. It never happens at mass consumer
scale. There isn't a single example of that in the last 25 years of the
Internet. The reason it never happens, is because most people with a heavy
tech-tilt don't understand normal users at all. They fail to understand that
they're an extreme minority in terms of product behavior.

You can dig back a decade or whatever on HN, it's a non-stop talking fest
about decentralized, everytime anything negative happens, whether this or
Facebook or whatever. And yet, ten years later, nothing. Everything mass
consumer tech is centralized.

~~~
mirko22
botcoin did happen though.

So it is not that unimaginable

~~~
zeth___
There's at most a dozen big miners, three big pools and a hand full of
exchanges.

------
pmoriarty
It'll be interesting to see how other dating sites (okcupid, match.com,
tinder, etc) handle this. If they manage to stay open, this could wind up
benefiting them, as craiglist users migrate over.

But if they shut down, and newspapers posting personals also run afoul of this
law, then this could be a boon to bars and other, more traditional ways of
meeting people.

~~~
crispyporkbites
> this could be a boon to bars and other, more traditional ways of meeting
> people

That is insanely optimistic, randomly meeting people in a bar is significantly
more dangerous than a prearranged meet, and the first thing most people do
after contact online is go to a bar or public meeting point anyway.

What is a “traditional” way of meeting someone? Through your parents?

~~~
pmoriarty
_" What is a "traditional" way of meeting someone? Through your parents?"_

Through friends, hobbies, volunteering, bars, clubs, parties, and various
other forms of group entertainment like concerts, plays, etc.

Pretty much anywhere people meet face to face counts.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> Pretty much anywhere people meet face to face counts.

But that's the problem, right? People used to do their banking in a bank, get
their books in a library, their toothpaste in a drug store, their music in a
record store, etc.

Now they do all of that online without leaving home. So they need to meet
people online too.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" they need to meet people online too"_

You don't need to convince me. I see the value of online dating.

------
mattnewton
I think that there are three kinds of people that would support this bill:

A) sincere people for whom 1 victim is too many and any tactic is worth
reducing the victim count by any amount

B) people too afraid to be labeled as pro sex trafficking

C) people who want weapons to silence speech and are using A and B

I don’t know how you would go about determining the mix, but I am sure the C
group will show their hand soon enough when we see calls for shutting down
platforms that were used to support political rivals, after they fail to
police user content on their site.

------
IdontRememberIt
Twitter, Instagram and Facebook have a lot of escorts having a profile. Are
their CEO also at risk? Are they planning to remove these profiles? Is
Facebook Marketplace at risk? Has someone some info?

------
crispyporkbites
> The bill amends the federal criminal code to add a new section that imposes
> penalties—a fine, a prison term of up to 10 years, or both—on a person who,
> using a facility or means of interstate or foreign commerce, owns, manages,
> or operates an interactive computer service (or attempts or conspires to do
> so) to promote or facilitate the prostitution of another person.

How do you define promoting or facilitating prostitution? Eg. Does WhatsApp
fall foul of this? Email? Basically any communication service can be used for
this...

------
kazinator
How far-reaching is FOSTA?

Say I'm in the US and happen to run a mailing list about some programming
language or whatever. Someone posts an off-topic message that promotes
prostitution with sex-trafficking victims. The message passes spam filters and
is redistributed to the mailing list subscribers. Am I now criminally liable
for facilitating this, as the mailing list operator?

If so, shouldn't CL be shutting down everything entirely?

If I'm not liable, on the other hand (that is to say, I have an "off topic
defense"), then why can't that apply to CraigsList; they can just say that
anything of that sort is off topic. At the very least they could keep the
"strictly platonic" category where that sort of promotion is off topic.

------
omarforgotpwd
Rather than stopping undesirable activity, this will merely push it to
platforms and protocol that are out of the US government's control.

~~~
jonnycomputer
It might, or it might not. And even if it did, then so what? I think the
attitude you expressed is equivalent to: well since there is no way to
actually stop the slave trade from using some platform, US companies might as
well profit from it.

~~~
omarforgotpwd
Not at all. If a certain law does not solve the intended problem and it poses
costs on innocent bystanders (e.g. website administrators who are not involved
in any illegal activity), then it might need to be reconsidered. The
equivalent attitude would be: Requiring everyone shit in the sink and wash
their hands in the toilet is not going to solve insider trading, so we should
not make that a requirement. "So what, you support insider trading and letting
people profit off private company information?" No, not at all. I just want to
shit in the toilet and wash my hands in the sink. It won't make a difference
to insider trading either way.

------
bouncetime
From someone who has dated prositutes and strippers.

I can tell you the ones I currently know and have dated have this view.

They enjoy sex. They are going to have it anyway. You are going to pay them
with your time, your flowers, dinner, gifts, take them to do things. Their
thing is why not take the money spend it on what they need as opposed to
dinner etc. either way everyone! Is buying it and selling it

------
krauses
I’m confused. So they felt at risk by allowing adults to post personal ads in
search of romantic connections but they leave open the “Services->Therapeutic”
category that openly promotes ads for illegal rub-and-tug establishments that
are frequently the target of sex trafficking raids.

~~~
luckydude
I sent Craig an email this morning saying the same thing. I don't get why they
close down the part of the website that was (mostly, I guess?) supporting
people trying to get in a relationship and, I'm sure some sort of Tinder like
hookups, and leave open the part where they actually have some real exposure.
Doesn't make sense.

------
IdontRememberIt
I own a leader classified ad website in my country (not the us). You cannot
imagine the pressure we get from all directions to remove categories
(regulation, companies, associations, etc). The free horizontal classified ad
websites are slowly dying. In the future, as a customer, you should be
prepared to pay for publishing an ad with skyrocketing fees due to regulation.
Classified ads will be validated (vs moderated) as regulation tend to push the
responsabilities on the website owner. The categories and the variety of
allowed items will decrease due to regulation and commercial pressure (You can
forget reselling your 10'000USD Gucci bag after a break up).

------
Fjolsvith
So, Craigslist no longer allows Americans to use personals because of FOSTA.

What's to keep Americans from going a foreign based service/server for their
hookup needs? It wouldn't necessarily have to be Darknet, right?

~~~
kirykl
The CLOUD act

[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/cloud-act-dangerous-
ex...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/cloud-act-dangerous-expansion-
police-snooping-cross-border-data)

~~~
Fjolsvith
I see supreme court challenges all over that.

------
cpcat
What if those sites move their operations to other countries

~~~
quotemstr
Ask Kim Dotcom

------
elchief
Still up in Canada

Though it's mostly bots these days. Used to be a good place to get laid

------
drawkbox
Real sex trafficking is horrible but censorship can end up bad as well and
harms the majority of people who aren't doing horrible things.

At least you knew where bad actors were as a sort of honeypot, closing down
stuff like this just makes them go dark and spread like roaches. It is messed
up to use 'trafficking' to go after porn as well.

------
nkkollaw
Can these companies (Craigslist, Reddit) open offices in Europe and run those
sections of the website from there, somehow?

------
olfactory
Craigslist personals offered us a very clear view of the utter failure of
authorities to combat sex trafficking.

------
kinghajj
The congress.gov link states "Section 230 limits the legal liability of
interactive computer service providers or users for content they publish that
was created by others." Wouldn't this exempt Craigslist from the act, since
all posts are created entirely by their users?

~~~
djf1
The bill imposes criminal penalties -- Section 230 does not shield platforms
from liability under federal criminal law.

The bill also carves out exceptions weakening Section 230 protections.

[1] [https://www.eff.org//deeplinks/2018/03/how-congress-
censored...](https://www.eff.org//deeplinks/2018/03/how-congress-censored-
internet) [2] [https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-
bill/1865](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1865)

------
matthewaveryusa
These services already exist on the dark web and motivated users will migrate
there instead. I think I'm neutral positive -- if this makes very public
websites more accountable for their content that's fine. If you still want to
pursue your ventures, devious or not, all you need to do is get the tools and
knowledge to access the dark web. There's no doubt in my mind that the web we
used to know has been taken over by politics and corporations -- the worst of
cocktails. So here we are, the dark web is now the free web, and the free web
is the corporate web. For me it will make no difference, I'll still have
access to both, but for the uninitiated they will go from surfing the web to
serfing the web.

------
tarikjn
What a terrible bill, it is retroactive and cover foreign commerce, meaning
even operators of a foreign company could be charged when travelling through
the US.

If as what I am reading in the comments and my intuition is right, the numbers
prove unequivocally that this bill will have the effect of increasing sex
trafficking and making investigating more difficult, is there a thin
possibility that the lawmakers be charged under their own bill for knowingly
voting it into law while possibly being aware of the effect it would have on
sex trafficking?

------
kakarot
So how long before these new powers are used for something other than
suppressing prostitution? (Labeling all activity on such sites as "sex
trafficking" is an attempt to control the language of the conversation, and
should be avoided)

------
swanlyk
Are we getting to the point where private electronic conversations are all
public? And all are "published" because they're stored on a server that can be
accessed (legitimately or not) and therefore have to be censored.

------
jurassic
This makes me sad. I never actually responded to any of the personals on
Craigslist, but looking through them back in 2008 and seeing what I felt
attraction to helped me understand and come to terms with the fact that I
really am bisexual. Fast forward ten years and next month I'm marrying my
same-sex partner. Not saying I wouldn't have figured that out without
Craigslist personals, but I do feel strongly that there's value in having a
space for people to broadcast their desire without moderation.

------
saudioger
They'll just move to the "therapeutic" section as masseuses. I totally respect
the mission of preventing sex trafficking, but it just feels like they're
playing whack-a-mole.

~~~
jasonkostempski
It feels like they're playing whack-a-mole using nukes, killing millions of
non-moles trying to take out 1 mole.

------
jimbonsf
This is a terrible step backwards for our country, no thanks to those who do
not understand the newer information technologies, like the internet and
social media, or appreciate the ridiculous criminalization of consensual
sexual relations. CL may be gone, but I hope the structural, dynamic
resilience of the web won't take long for workarounds and alternatives.

------
gardnr
Doesn't it seem likely that an alternative will pop up which is outside the
jurisdiction of FOSTA which may or may not cooperate with USA law enforcement
as well?

------
ggg9990
Sad. I had several great dates from Craigslist personals.

~~~
imesh
I had several weird hookups from Craiglist. This is probably good for my
health.

------
odammit
It’s just a matter of time before there is a code like “selling new pink shoes
for roses” in the clothing section. Will they shut that down too?

------
dumbfounder
The intent of FOSTA was right in my opinion, if you are making money from
these services then you should spend some of that money policing your
services. That seems fair to me in theory. Not sure whether FOSTA got it right
or wrong, but I do know some of these players did little to nothing to police
their services, and brought about their own downfall.

------
masonic
At least you can still buy fake IDs, passports, and "green cards" on CL[0].

[0] [https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tix/d/make-your-passport-
dr...](https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tix/d/make-your-passport-
drivers/6533065522.html)

------
Khaine
This law is insane. It also impacts the operations of US companies overseas,
where prostitution is legal. So for example, if a prostitute hosts their
website on AWS, then Amazon is in violation of this law.

------
habeebtc
On the bright side, the "Rants and Raves" section has disappeared with it.

~~~
jzawodn
nope: [https://sfbay.craigslist.org/d/rants-
raves/search/rnr](https://sfbay.craigslist.org/d/rants-raves/search/rnr)

------
danso
How are Craigslist personals more affected by this law/regulation than other
semi-anonymous dating sites? Or am I mistaken in thinking that there is any
dating site that has the same anonymity as Craigslist?

~~~
pmorici
It could be that the risk reward calculation is different for CL than other
sites. Personals is just one part of a much larger site for CL where as a
dating site's only business is personals so they really don't have anything to
lose by taking the risk.

~~~
confounded
Right. Oh! Except for 25 years in prison.

------
greggarious
Maybe I'm misreading but it looks like this only passed the Senate - doesn't
that mean it isn't law yet? Am I misreading or is this more of a protest?

------
werber
But there's still the therapeutic section... They don't seem as concerned with
prostitution as they're with litigation

------
coupdetaco
[https://youtu.be/8uT38_pRxHo?t=15m6s](https://youtu.be/8uT38_pRxHo?t=15m6s)

------
bsder
Could someone explain to me how this isn't going to go down in flames to an
immediate First Amendment challenge?

~~~
CamperBob2
I think that's why more people aren't upset about it. The courts have been
very effective at shutting down this sort of grandstanding.

------
anonymous5133
The irony though is that the personal section will most likely just migrate to
another section of the website.

~~~
mattnewton
And then potentially cause the entire website to fold when they are charged
with sex trafficking in random places.

------
Fjolsvith
I see a new, open-source, peer-to-peer app that piggybacks on the Ethereum
blockchain to provide personal ads.

------
ratata
Would an open source peer-to-peer personals board qualify as a 'platform'
under this bill ?

------
smt88
I hope a lawyer will chime in, because this seems pretty obviously to be an
indefensible law.

If you make analogies to other services, the justification falls apart. Are
landlords responsible for weed dealers' business cards stuck to peg boards? Is
USPS responsible for people mailing bombs?

Even under DMCA, no public/high-traffic communication service is responsible
for its users this way.

~~~
zrobotics
Actually, a landlord can be responsible for tenant's drug dealing.
[https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/landlord-
liab...](https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/landlord-liability-
for-criminal-acts-of-tenants.html) Granted, they have to at least have a
suspicion it is occurring, but there is potential liability there, and
business cards stuck to a pegboard may be enough.

~~~
kevin_b_er
A better comparison would be that the privately owned toll road operator must
check for drug traffickers itself or be shut down by a law like this.

------
animex
I guess these service providers can now go back to the safety of the streets.

------
seibelj
Obviously driving prostitution underground and out of reach of researchers
will improve the lives of sex workers. Prostitution is a very recent industry
and was invented by the internet

~~~
cft
I know several people who met and got married with children on CL. It was a
normal dating site, and it also has(d) "strictly platonic" and "missed
connections"\- all of it is shut down now. Are dating sites/Tinder next? We
will miss the days when internet wasn't like cable TV.

~~~
daturkel
I loved browsing the strictly platonic section looking for sweet/bizarre/novel
posts, but it was definitely full content that was _not_ platonic.

~~~
antonvs
You just have a narrow definition of 'platonic'. :)

------
Danielalonso91
This is completely unrelated - but, one thing I love about comments on Hacker
News is how well-written they are, and eloquent, too.

------
deftturtle
waiting for a new site to spring up in response...

------
jayess
Grindr next?

------
SeeDave
Would it be possible to update this post with a direct link to the Craigslist
notice at
[https://www.craigslist.org/about/FOSTA](https://www.craigslist.org/about/FOSTA)?

It seems a bit... inappropriate to deep link to a screenshot posted by a
Twitter user with a bio of "CRUSH THE PATRIARCHY DICK BY DICK! XY = man & XX =
woman FOREVER"

~~~
dang
Sure. I'm on my phone, though, so someone else will have to post the previous
link.

~~~
SeeDave
Thanks :)

------
aaronrenoir
For a good time respond to this post and we can make financial arrangements ;)

~~~
confounded
Stop trafficking yourself!

~~~
aaronrenoir
I think we can all agree ycombinator is facilitating prostitution

~~~
mc32
I think you would need to spell out your [handler's] phone number's numbers
for it to be "legit" solicitation.

~~~
archi42
We exchanged contact details (deleted the comments) and had a really great
time. 5*, 10/10, would recommend to friends.

------
nvr219
I got a date off craigslist once and it wasn't good.

------
lizardskull
The craiglist Casual Encounters section destroys lives. It laid waste to mine.
There have been many tear filled nights spent wondering who would I be now if
I could delete that site from my history. A string of uncountable months
searching for one new sexual partner after another. The principle expense paid
includes a ledger of a life of total neglect for those who felt true love for
me. And then the hot pattern takes hold again. The emails pile up of mostly
men wanting pixels and sizes as a small part of my mind tells me to stop. But
the fingers keep clicking. One blue link after another until I find what I do
not need. Sex is a fire which begins to burn out of control for some of us. I
cannot be the only one since the act takes at least two.

~~~
freech
If you want to stop having casual sex but feel you can't control yourself,
maybe you can have yourself committed to some sort of clinic, instead of
trying to take away the possibility from everyone else too? (Which probably
wouldn't even help, since if you're not hideously ugly you will probably find
more then enough men willing to have sex with you without craigslist.)

------
loteck
We're taking our ball and going home. Very mature.

It's total BS, of course. People can just as easily advertise prostitution
services in other sections of CL. Something tells me their deeply principled
stand won't extend to shutting down the whole site.

Instead, they will _take reasonable steps to control the proliferation of sex
trafficking on their site._

Some magical force somehow precludes them from extending that same concept to
personal ads, I guess.

~~~
always_good
I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Even if you think it's all for show, this is a good way for Craigslist to use
their ubiquity to lift FOSTA into the public eye. Nobody knows what FOSTA is
much less the sort of impact it could have on their day to day.

But I suspect Craiglist's legal team isn't a bunch of idiots when it comes to
toeing the line of prostitution. They outlived websites like Redbook even
though they have obvious prostitution classifieds. I'd imagine they're
experts.

It looks more like the Communications Act of 1934 was the centerpiece of their
defense.

~~~
loteck
All platforms already restrict content they allow users to post, including CL.
People still seem to express themselves freely despite those restrictions.

That CL would make a vindictive stand in defense of sex trafficking
specifically is just bizarre.

~~~
always_good
CL openly allowed prostitution on their site just yesterday.

I wouldn't be so quick to call it self-evident that there was a better
response than to immediately shut down their classifieds.

I'm sure there's more to do than just flicking a "filter prostitution: yes /
no" switch on their admin panel.

~~~
TallGuyShort
No, CL has had explicit notices posted regarding prostitution for a long time
and has actively moderated for overt prostitution. You can't compare now, but
if you compare ads on Craigslist to other personals / services websites like
Backpage, Craigslist has been quite PG-13-rated for a long time and at least
forces posters to be a bit more subtle. The "massage" section is actually
mostly pleasantly legit in my experience, assuming you're not in a big city.

------
joering2
This is why we need ows to make top alexia websits a utility!!

Imagine your electric provider cutting off your juice because CEO happen to be
pro ozon layer guy and believes your fridge is too old and takes too much
energy. Or your water company doesnt like you to wash your dog in your bathtub
and cuts our water off suggesting t do that in your back yard. Or gas company
does a survey and disagree that you cook lamb meat at home and shuts your gas,
sggesting to switch to cooking poultry.

As billions of people visit these websites, they start to be super cruicial to
quality of peoples lives! You can say “you gut cut off youtube go somewhere
else”. There is nowhere to go! Same with other major sites.

~~~
cft
Do you think ozonE was created by an act of Congress, like FOSTA? It's a
business move to avoid legal liability.

