
A Dubious Deal with the NSA - sinalc0
http://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2015-08/xkeyscore-nsa-domestic-intelligence-agency
======
dmix
We can safely assume that the IRS and other countries tax agencies have
systems like this - or will soon. Nearly every agency with enforcement powers
will eventually too. Wiretaps are being used for everything these days and
they need to parse this data.

Just like the recent use of SWAT teams by even benign regulatory agencies (ie,
raiding unlicensed clothing factories with assault rifles) - they will make
use of new advanced enforcement techniques as the tech starts to trickle down
from the top agencies.

We (the tech community) all complained for years about the poor state of
technology in government. But now they are catching up - and that technology
is being combined with the great powers they hold. Creating something most
people didn't expect. New levels of power it seems... which can be utilized
extremely efficiently.

~~~
wahsd
I think there is significant enough opposition to the notion that the IRS
would have such a capability that at the very least it will be the very last
agency to get it. I can't see even the Republicans crossing that line.

~~~
ivanca
They cross any line anytime... that's easy to see if you know who is leading
their presidential poll right now.

~~~
dogma1138
There are plenty of loons everywhere....

~~~
themartorana
What is the need to defend-through-balance? Just because Y isn't perfect
doesn't mean we shouldn't point out and hold to full accountability the faults
of X.

X, here, being the Republican base which is, it seems, so much more radical
than it has ever been before in my life. Y has all sorts of faults of their
own, but there shouldn't be compulsion to hold it up as defense of X.

~~~
dogma1138
It's not the need to defend through balance it's the constant push of the
extremes to the spot light mostly by none-other than the opposition. Trump
gets more air time (direct or in name) by the media which is aligned with the
democratic party than say FOX news. And the republicans are no better one of
the biggest pushes for Obama leading to the 2004 elections were the
republicans with their constant "fascination" with him. Now I'm not comparing
Obama to Trump here as an individual but as a candidate the rednecks hating on
Obama pushed more democrats to his side because "we are supposed to object to
them aren't we?" same thing goes here Trump is surprisingly quite a good
public speaker, he knows how to work a crowed and he knows how rub people the
wrong or well the right way to get the responses he wants from them. When the
opposing party is attacking him day and night it not only give him free
publicity but moves more and more people to his side because when you feel
that your side is under attack you align yourself to "defend" it. This is the
same reality that breaks or tears so many social movements especially on the
internet apart since eventually they grow to the point where they have some
many loons that that's the only thing that your "opposition" is attacking you
with and well you can't side with them can't you now?

And this isn't just happening to politics, this is the same human behavior
that killed Greenpeace (all of it's founders were pushed aside by radicals)
and why you can't tackle any serious issues whether it's wall street or global
conflicts. Just try having a movement for a 2 state solutions in the Israeli-
Palestinian conflicts you'll start with few ideals that want to open a good
dialog, you'll end up absorbing BDS loons, people with signs that praise
Hamas, your gatherings end up having "From the river to the sea Palestine will
be free" chants that leave not room well for a 2 state solution. Animal
rights? pfft you'll end having naked people running and spraying fake blood,
social equality? that will turn into a Guy Fawkes look a like contest, the
ease of inclusiveness which comes with the modern times pretty much exclude
you from dealing with any major issue in a serious manner.

------
revelation
That's hilarious. One of the premier and foremost missions of the
Verfassungsschutz is of course counter-intelligence.

To support another countries foreign intelligence service (which is targeted
with espionage on Germany) is nothing short of treason on an organized scale.

~~~
nota_bene
Don't forget that borders are becoming less important. Corporate interests
don't care about borders and national interests.

~~~
alyandon
Corporate interests care a great deal about borders so long as it allows them
to artificially segment markets to derive maximum profitability (dvds, pharma,
etc)!

------
codezero
Does this have implications in that Getmany can collect data on US citizens,
and by sharing with the NSA, the NSA can circumvent restrictions on collecting
data on US citizens?

~~~
throwawayaway
That's the deal with GCHQ, why would the BND be any different?

~~~
kriro
The deal isn't with the BND it's with the BfV which is for German interior
issues only so spying outside of Germany is theoretically unlikely.

[even though my guess would be that a similar deal with the BND is in place as
well]

~~~
throwawayaway
Safe to assume deal is in place with both, yes.

------
rocky1138
Will we be seeing a movie made about this in 20 years as we did with "The
Lives of Others" in 2006?

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/)

~~~
flurpitude
No, in 20 years history will have been revised so that these events never took
place.

~~~
wahsd
The internet will have been cleansed under emergency order
◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎

~~~
mindcrime
Subject _washd_ \- Mention of emergency order ◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎ is
forbidden unless expressly permitted by an exemption granted under clause
P97/X2 of Commandment ◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎. Your deviation has been noted and you are
hereby commanded to appear at Re-education Camp #47 for a 2 hour Happiness and
Gratitude Ritual.

~~~
dogma1138
mindcrime you know the rules all electronic communication with the populi has
to be presented in FOIA compliant encoding...

█████████ ██████ ██ ██████ ███ █████████ ███████ ██████████████████ ███
█████████ ██████ ███████ ███████████ ██ ███████████ ████████ ██████ ████████
███████████ ██ █████████████ ██████████████████. ███████ ██████████ ████ █████
███████ ████ ████ ████ ███████ ████████ ██████████████ [CODE WORD REDACTED]
███ ██ ██ █████████ ████ ████████ ████████.

~~~
themartorana
Have we reached the point where comedy is the only way of dealing with this
reality?

~~~
mindcrime
I don't know, but I'm glad we _can_ still find amusement even in very dark
things. Imagine a world that not only has _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ 'ish
surveillance, but also lacks any humor.

Not to say I don't take this very seriously. And as much as humor is all but
verboten on HN, I'm glad to see the occasional little kernel of comic exchange
on here. It's a sign that we still possess our fundamental human nature.

~~~
signaler
If we had a world even remotely like 1984, there would be blood on the
streets. The privacy zealots overplay this as if the NSA is capable of magic,
and that they are omnipresent on every network. It's like saying that every
user on the Internet is fumbling around in the dark and doesn't know what
they're doing. As we all know, there are very smart people on the network who
could possibly outsmart the NSA, but media theater likes to champion the NSA
as our new overlords. This is not magic. The NSA collaborating like this is
what happens when you give 6 billion people an Internet connection. Of course
you get zero day stockpiles. Of course you get back alley deals

~~~
mindcrime
_and that they are omnipresent on every network._

From the disclosures we got from Snowden, as well as previous revelations
about the NSA, the evidence points to a situation pretty damn close to that.
They are grabbing data from all sorts of social networks, we know they scarf
up email, we know at least they grab most - if not all - phone metadata, and
we know they're tapping underseas fiber-optic cables that represent backbone
Internet links between countries. We know carriers like AT&T graciously make
data off their networks available to the NSA, and we know they do these smokey
back-room deals with the other Five Eyes countries, and now Germany as well. I
see no reason to think they aren't doing similar deals with most other
"friendly" countries.

And let's not get into the backdooring routers and commercial software, and
attempts to weaken encryption standards.

To say that we _aren 't_ already "in a world remotely like 1984" strikes me
either disingenuous (Hello, NSA employee?) or uninformed. Would you care to
say what else the NSA would have to do (or what we'd have to _find out_
they're doing) before you say we are "remotely close to 1984"?

~~~
signaler
1984 is a nice bit of canon for the privacy conscious, but it is also a work
of fiction, and can quickly be co-opted by the paranoiac fringe community as
being something that exists.

> What else the NSA would have to do (or what we'd have to find out they're
> doing) before you say we are "remotely close to 1984"?

They would have to know our private thoughts. They would have to read our
paper diaries. They would have to disallow me closing my curtains at night.
They would have to hear me telling my girlfriend I love her.

All the clusters of GPUs and corridors of big data will not know my private
thoughts. I see your handle is mindcrime, but as I said; there would be blood
on the streets if they started infiltrating the substrate of our craniums.

~~~
mindcrime
_They would have to know our private thoughts. They would have to read our
paper diaries. They would have to disallow me closing my curtains at night.
They would have to hear me telling my girlfriend I love her._

And you think that's what it would take to be "remotely close"? I don't get
it. From what I remember of _Nineteen Eighty Four_ that scenario would put us
absolutely on par with the description in the book. I believe that we are far
more than "remotely close" already. But that's just me. _shrug_

~~~
signaler
> And you think that's what it would take to be "remotely close"?

Basically any AFK stuff is pushing it, and apt to be very invasive of privacy
and truly Orwellian. The distinction I make is the NSA resides on the network
and doesn't go much further than that. Is what they're doing Orwellian on the
network? Possibly, but only insofar as I let them on my network. Who is to say
I don't use secure meshnets? Who is to say I don't watch the watchmen?

I respect your thoughts on the matter, and the current narrative does suggest
we are tending towards a 1984 panopticon, but this is also framed in the
context of pervasive CCTV, and presumes that every citizen is glued to their
smartphone. Measures like CCTV and smartphone tracking observe the citizenry
and this means everyone is kept in line and the system works, so fair dues,
this could be seen as 1984'ish. But again, only insofar as the citizen opts
in. It is said we would prefer to be watched than go about our private
business alone.

(And yes CCTV can be opt in, but that is a lot harder to achieve and
ironically requires Google Maps hacking to pinpoint where key CCTV hotspots
are)

TL;DR: I don't negate 1984'ish elements, I'm simply saying they are opt-in
only, and not as bad as the current narrative suggests.

