
Ask a Repair Shop - liquidcool
http://philip.yurchuk.com/software/buying-enterprise-software/
======
xapata
If you ask an enterprise vendor if their software has feature X, the answer is
always, "Yes!" You'll find their software is infinitely customizable with just
a bit of configuration. What they're not telling you is that their
configuration tool is really a poorly implemented, proprietary programming
language. You won't be able to configure the software yourself and must now
hire consultants to read your watch and tell you the time.

The good news is that the enterprise sales folks know all the best restaurants
in town. Cocktail bars, too.

~~~
mindcrime
_If you ask an enterprise vendor if their software has feature X, the answer
is always, "Yes!"_

FWIW, not all enterprise software vendors do that. We don't, for example.

Just last night I was running through a demo for a prospective customer, and
my contact asked about some new features. The answer was "we have some of that
partially implemented, another is trivial, and another one is going to take
some research. Ballpark estimate is probably 6 weeks or so to do all that".

Of course maybe it's different when you're a founder who has spent his entire
career as a developer and got sick of that exact bullshit routine. :-)

~~~
Bartweiss
> who has spent his entire career as a developer

If I'm right, this means you're selling to software companies, or companies
doing in-house development?

As much bullshit as there is in selling software to software companies, it
seems to be so much worse outside of this. Enterprise vendors selling to non-
technical firms seem far more willing to promise the moon and stars on the
basis that they can hand-wave it as "a job for the software guys". Whereas I
think most devs hear that claim and translate to "six months of work", opening
up a bit more room to do business by being honest. Congrats on not taking the
common approach!

~~~
mindcrime
_If I 'm right, this means you're selling to software companies, or companies
doing in-house development?_

Not really. We're not doing developer tools or anything like that. Well.. not
like an IDE or anything. The products we're talking to this prospect about are
an Enterprise Social Network product and a Document Management product.

That said, we do have a machine learning /cognitive services platform in
development, so that's borderline a "developer tool", but we're not in the
same space as like an Atlassian or anything.

------
richdougherty
I did this when I was choosing a laptop. I called up a few laptop repair
shops. It as so helpful! They could tell me what was junk and what was OK.

I also do something like this this when choosing a new ISP. I call the support
line instead of the sales line. Somehow ISPs can answer sales enquiries
instantly while support calls take 45 minutes to answer. This strategy has led
me to use some of the smaller (slightly more expensive) ISPs, because I know
they'll answer almost straight away.

~~~
eterm
My best customer support experience was calling an American ISP (I guess a
small regional one but I have no good way to judge their size). I had been
emailed billing details for a customer - the customer had presumably
mistakenly entered my email address. I was expecting the usual 40 minutes on
hold but it was answered promptly and politely by someone who understood the
problem as I presented it.

This contrasts greatly with my experience calling any UK ISP.

The only other phone support I've experienced that has come close to that was
(the now sadly defunct) Icesave, which I believe shared their phone support
with Newcastle building society.

~~~
bensummers
If you're not having luck with UK ISPs, try
[https://www.aaisp.net.uk/](https://www.aaisp.net.uk/)

They have technical people running support who talk to customers as peers.
Also you can use IRC if you don't like the phone.

~~~
Nexxxeh
Yeah, they're not the cheapest by a long stretch, but if your connection is
something you NEED rather than something you just LIKE... Andrews and Arnold
are worth the premium.

If you will be losing productivity if there's any outage, you'll probably save
the price difference the first time you use their support.

I've had good experiences with Zen too, on their FTTP product. (I'd have used
AA, but they didn't offer that specific setup.)

~~~
danpalmer
+1 for Zen - they really know what they are doing. Unfortunately FTTC still
requires intervention from Openreach who are still terrible.

I find Zen is a good middle ground between a reliable ISP with good features
(like static addresses, IPv6, etc) and good support, and a provider like
Andrews * Arnold who are excellent but will cost 2-3x the price. A&A are just
not really suited to home use, and price a lot on bandwidth, which in the age
of Netflix isn't great.

------
inthewoods
My experience is the opposite. Spoke with two system integrators regarding an
implementation of a marketing automation tool. In both cases, the proposed
lead on the project made statements that I knew were incorrect regarding the
software. We also had a challenging requirement that was not part of any out-
of-the-box solution and was told by both that it wasn't possible with one of
the vendors we were considering. Simply using Google, I was able to find a
solution.

I'd add (and the author mentions this) that most system integrators have a
bias (whether financially driven or not) towards particular software. That
makes it challenging to assess "is this the best software or what they pushing
me to"?

I don't see how this is that much different from buying from the vendors.

For me, I usually take a vendor's customer page and start calling people
myself. I also reach out to my network to see if anyone has an opinion. And if
I can find a list of companies using the software (vs. who the company says
they work with) then I call/reach out to them as well.

~~~
The_DaveG
A lot of SI's are married to a particular software platform, and it's been
that way for a long time. We all know the big player who owns 70-80% of the
market, and most people will implement via them (or that's at least what they
make most of their money off of).

Some of us (I work for an SI) actually find the correct solution for the
problem. We use all 4 major players, build our own stuff when appropriate, and
would look at other solutions if the opportunity arrises, we love what we do.

Let me know if you're still looking for a solution and I'd be happy to give
you another opinion.

~~~
inthewoods
Appreciate the offer - this was a past company so I'm not in the market right
now.

~~~
The_DaveG
Not a problem, if you ever need anything, you can reach out and I'll help if
possible Dave@CorsoSystems.com

------
kd5bjo
This is mostly the result of our checkbox-grid comparison shopping culture.
"Features" like extra coats of paint and thicker metal cost the manufacturer
more than they increase the market value. On the other hand, throwing in a
dozen cheap bits of plastic with every vacuum cleaner pays for itself because
it can now ostensibly do a dozen more things.

~~~
Nition
I wish there was like a rating system for how well-built appliances are. I
guess the poor man's version of that is looking at how long the manufacturer's
warranty is.

~~~
gorkonsine
Well these days, with Amazon, that's what the reviews are for. I've passed on
lots of purchases because I looked at the reviews and saw too many negative
ones, and bought other things after seeing almost all glowing reviews. A bad-
quality product can lead to poor reviews, and this can affect sales.

Manufacturers' warranties are only so useful; a lot of companies make you jump
through hoops to actually make use of them. If the product isn't that
expensive, you'll end up paying so much in shipping that it just isn't worth
bothering with when you can go buy a new one. And you always take the chance
that they'll simply deny your claim and then your recourse is to sue them (not
worth it for anything under a few thousand dollars) and to post bad reviews.

~~~
kqr
I'd like to point out an addition to this. Always _read_ the negative reviews.
Don't just count them. I put much more weight on the negative reviews than the
positive ones. You can frequently tell if the bad experience is due to a user
error or if it's a systematic fault in the product.

If a product has 70% negative reviews, of which 90% are operator error, I'll
probably still prefer that product to the one with only 30% negative reviews
where only 30% are operator error.

~~~
gorkonsine
That's a good point. A lot of bad reviews are clearly user stupidity: I even
see ones where they obviously bought the wrong thing, had unrealistic
expectations, etc., and then gave a poor review based on this. Or reviews
where the merchant (usually Amazon) screwed up somehow, so they give a poor
review to the product.

On the other hand, positive reviews are frequently either lies or fluff, so
you're exactly right to weight them much less. A lot of them look like they're
written by shills, some of them even clearly say they got the product for free
or cheap in exchange for a review, and many are written shortly after
acquiring the product so they really haven't had enough time to fairly test it
and see if it's reliable long-term.

Also, well-written negative reviews will go into great detail explaining
exactly _why_ the product is crap, so look for those. I'm remembering a great
(and long) review I read for an automatic cat litterbox which attaches to a
toilet here, and sometimes ends up cooking cat turds...

------
busterarm
This reminds me so much of my experiences working in a computer repair shop
~15 years ago.

Funniest thing about it is that as a sales rep I sucked, but once I got moved
into repair, I was absolutely destroying our sales team in sales often by 4x
their best rep without even trying.

There were a couple of Black Fridays where the store made all computer sales
take place at the repair center because of it.

~~~
kqr
> Funniest thing about it is that as a sales rep I sucked, but once I got
> moved into repair, I was absolutely destroying our sales team in sales often
> by 4x their best rep without even trying.

I find this incredibly interesting because it's telling us something about how
to make people perform at their best. I believe I'm the same way regarding
making pitches from a repair bench.

Do you know why it happened that way to you? I'd share my hypothesis but I
don't want to prime you.

~~~
busterarm
My goals were different and I wasn't worried about making sales anymore, just
telling them what I thought was best for them.

I wasn't expected to sell anymore either, so my approach to dealing with
people in the store could be different too.

------
8ig8
Loosely related, here's a great Reddit AMA with a vacuum repair technician...

[https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1pe2bd/iama_vacuum_re...](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1pe2bd/iama_vacuum_repair_technician_and_i_cant_believe/)

~~~
scriptkiddy
One of the best threads Reddit has produced in a very long time.

------
siliconc0w
Ask the company for other customers you can talk to and then take a few
members of the system engineering team responsible for supporting it out for
dinner to learn the real story.

In truth though, a lot of enterprise software sucks and it sucks to support
but there are usually few better options. Often velocity is the 1st, 2nd, and
3rd priority so it's easier to pickup some shitty software and spend some
engineering resources to 'make it work' than it is to try to internally sell
investing the resources needed to build a better bespoke solution.

~~~
philjr
The difference between doing that and talking to 3rd party integrators is the
ability to compare across vendors.

------
jaredandrews

        I got a full education on washers, including a lot of industry dirty laundry. 
    

Please tell us more.

~~~
timcederman
What's interesting to me is that for all my appliances in my house (different
brands), I've been able to repair each of them (microwave, air conditioner,
washer, dryer, dishwasher, and wine fridge) on my own, using some basic
instructions on the internet and a part that at most has cost $50.

I believe we're in a golden age for self-repair (particularly with YouTube
videos), but I keep hearing about how everything is throwaway. Just the other
week I repaired an iPhone 3GS we had been using as a baby monitor until it was
dropped, for $4 (including shipping!) to replace the screen. That's amazing!

For those that do a Google search, and buy some parts on eBay (although I got
an obscure a/c part via Amazon Prime), it's never been easier to repair your
devices.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Amazing is the price you paid for the screen. Maybe iPhone screens are in such
high supply - but with modern Android smartphones, we're usually talking about
~$100 for the screen package. Whether or not you'll be able to replace that
without specialized equipment depends on the manufacturer (I did one such
repair myself on Samsung Galaxy S3 without problems, but with my S7 I'd have
to first cut it apart - and Samsung phones are on the "more repairable" end of
the spectrum...).

The reason we're talking about throwaway economy is because quite often, the
parts that fail are not available in any reasonable quantity (phone screens,
appliance motherboards), and paying for repair (or acquiring them yourself and
doing the repair on your own) costs about as much as a new device. At which
point most people rightfully ask, why bother?

Also, when comparing to 1960s - 1980s, one has to remember that it's not just
that the devices were simpler then. They also often came with technical
manuals, and they were _intended_ to be home-repairable. OTOH manufacturers
today seriously screw up repairability even when not necessary. I get that
screens are best made as fully-integrated parts, but compare e.g. Kindle 3
Keyboard, which is as close as you get to swappable screen (pry it open, screw
out some screws, pull the screen out...) vs. devices which are internally
glued together, so that trying to take it apart risks destroying some
components.

~~~
lvillani
Most modern smartphones have the LCD, digitizer and glass all fused together.
It improves image quality and reduces the distance between the glass and the
image. This, however, greatly increases the replacement cost since you would
then have to replace the entire unit when you break it. Also, higher
resolution screens are more expensive.

I think the 3GS is old enough to have these layers as discrete components that
you can replace one by one, hence the lower cost.

~~~
verall
yes, the 3gs didn't have loca, although the 4 and beyond did. Android phones
tend to have much more expensive LCD's which since about 2013 are all loca'd
to the glass and digi, so when the screen breaks on your s7 it's a very pricey
fix.

At the shop I worked in, in the case of broken glass but fully working LCD, on
a galaxy s3-s5, we would spend about an hour holding the screen assembly under
a heat gun and slowly peel the glass off the LCD with a playing card. The we
could put on new loca and glue a new piece of glass on, which cost ~$10. We
charged like $120 for the because it took forever and there was like a 1/4
chance you broke the LCD and then replacing the assembly was like $110.

------
staofbur
Another bit of advice I can give from dealing with a few particularly shitty
vendors is that if you can't actually download a copy from their web site or
extract one from their sales team and see it in action yourself, they have
something to hide.

This is usually cost escalators, a really poor deployment and management
story, an upsold incomplete product or just a wall of lies.

Also refuse to buy a license until you trial it on your own kit.

------
richmaclannan
It's interesting how ways to combat any bias in sales pitches and marketing
(i.e. 3rd party review websites) don't quite seem to be hitting the mark, if
it takes a repair shop to give you the honest approach.

Enterprise hardware and software seems to have a fundamental difference to the
original post: interoperability. With a washing machine, I don't care how well
it interoperates with my tumble dryer, or my cooker. I just care how well it
works within itself.

Enterprise hardware and software on the other hand may well have the features
listed (so the marketing isn't actually lying); but if it doesn't interoperate
well, then that doesn't help me with the existing kit I've got. The enterprise
approach that can both say "Greenfield deployment? Here's the absolute best"
and "Brownfield deployment? Let's see what you've got and what we can reuse"
/without bias/ would be the ideal solution.

------
nedwin
Always nice to read a post from someone with a) experience and b) succinct
writing style.

------
gist
> “Oh, we don’t repair GE anymore. They’re pretty much throwaways now. When
> they break, you just buy a new one.”

Reverse engineering of motive. If it were only that simple.

Although this 'business response' could be correct I wouldn't assume that is
the case as if the repair shop has no axe to grind or other reason to make
that statement.

Could have also lost their authorization or access to parts to repair GE
appliances. Or perhaps they aren't listed on the approved list of repair shops
(could be for various reasons).

Way back when you used to buy a fair amount of products that were typically
repaired there were certain vendors that the manufacturer shuttled the most
repair work to. The other shops could get access to parts however it wasn't
typically cost effective for them to do so.

~~~
dvtv75
A bit late to the party, but yes, I agree that there could well be other
motivations. I worked in one PC shop where the owner had refused to take a
mandated course to become an authorized Apple reseller. When they, in turn,
refused him, he started telling every customer similar tales about Apple, and
some of it plain invented.

Aside, not wanting to derail the comments: When I say "invented stuff" I mean
like how Apple switched to Intel chips, because "the industry" got together
and said that if Apple didn't, they would make a new internet just for Apple.
There was also the line about all Apple developers being jealous of
Microsoft's success, so they were the ones developing all the viruses and
malware to take down Microsoft's OS, and there were fewer and fewer of these
developers because they were all being put in jail with the Linux developers,
who were busy doing the same thing.

One day, a Mac-based publishing shop foolishly decided that they needed our
help. They got a lecture on how Microsoft Publisher was the industry standard
and they should just get with the times. They never called back.

Incredibly enough, 10 years on, the repair shop is still in business and
hasn't been sued.

------
PeterStuer
The multi-vendor/best-of-bread system integrator has been for the most part
replaced by exclusive partnerships. The platform owner's demand for 'loyalty'
has grown significantly over the last decade.

------
shopnearby
This was a great article and I love how the author related it to a common
purchase most people have made in their lives already.

------
notrealname1
The caveat to this approach on the software side is that some SI's including
some of the biggest names are just effing awful; custom proprietary
frameworks, low quality development, etc. Fortunately if you talk to their
customers you can get a realistic assessment of quality..

------
Kenji
It's actually much simpler than that: Never rely on the opinion of someone who
can make immediate profit off your decision.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Exactly. It's a pretty obvious concept, and I don't understand why I have to
explain it to so many people in real life.

Particular context, in which I have to explain this often: when needing advice
about which computer/phone/appliance to buy, _never ever_ ask the salesman in
the very store you'll be buying in. It's _literally their job_ to give you bad
advice - to suggest a deal good for the store, not for you.

