
Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching - JumpCrisscross
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/15/opinion/hong-kong-extradition-protests.html
======
smnrchrds
Could someone please explain what the long-term goal of the protesters is?
Best case scenario, HK and Chinese government postpone the integration until
2047. What then? When the borders come down, what will happen to all those who
openly talked against Beijing government, held candlelight vigils for
Tienanmen Square victims, and rallied and protested against a government who
does not like people protesting and does not shy away from killing thousands
or putting millions in concentration camps.

Do all protesters in HK plan to emigrate before 2047 or do they think they can
convince Beijing to keep away even after that date?

~~~
tlear
They are idealists, their parents and grandparents were not subjected to
Cultural revolution and rest of the brutality of PRC. They think they can keep
the city they love as it is.

Realistically their only hope is collapse of PRC. Never say never and who
knows they might help it happen.

I have quite a few classmates back from university (end of 90s start of 2000s)
whose families saw writing on the wall, had enough $$ and got the fuck out
while going was good.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _their only hope is collapse of PRC_

Not necessarily. A respectful and long-term oriented Beijing would be fine.
(The CPC would need to change, to prevent a dictator-for-life like Xi from re-
emerging.)

There are a lot of win-win outcomes between the subjugation of Hong Kong and
collapse of China.

~~~
intrasight
Perhaps true in theory, but the practice of history says otherwise. Any
anyway, it's not China that going to collapse, but the dictatorial regime.

~~~
whoevercares
Oh so China can survive a regime rotation without collapsing...sorry never
happened once in China’s history

~~~
byw
Depends on how you define a regime. If we can be a bit wishy-washy, Deng
rewrote the constitution from scratch and was essentially running it like a
new regime, but still paid lip service to Mao to prevent mutiny. A similar
change is not unthinkable if Hu/Wen/Li's liberal faction gets in power.

------
kumosawa
I’m from china mainland, and I stand for these protesters. At least, I don’t
want them lose the right of fighting for their rights. And btw, even such huge
protest happening, there is no report, no discussion in China, even message
left on SNS also get censored or vanished. Terrifying.

Edit: apologize for uncertain words, it needs add a time limitation. The first
protest was happening at 9th June and all Chinese media chose keep silent. And
now it cannot be covered. But attention, it still be defined as a riot.

~~~
lawrenceyan
How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have
access to outside information / sites like you?

Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an
extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or
would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

~~~
xiaochuanSun
There are some Chinese students who are studying in US universities support
the CN government on this event. Even though they have access to the
information, they still choose not to believe it.

~~~
dmix
I never really understood how Chinese people could live under such a regime
until a read a long-form book about life in China by a New Yorker journalist
who lived and reported from the for many years:

[https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth-
eb...](https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth-
ebook/dp/B00GET185M/)

It's really hard to grasp how effective information control, combined with
20-30% of the population being "party members", and other means of control can
completely convince (or more likely blind) the population from external
realities.

It's hard because you can see how smart and capable Chinese-Americans (or
Canadians, or whatever) are at anything they set their mind to, where it
almost seems like something is missing in their culture vs the West.

The general lesser educated and poor swath is easier to understand how they
can be lied to and believe. The key is the smarter-than-average Chinese who do
end up getting access to outside information are thoroughly convinced by the
state early on that 'western propaganda is merely constantly trying to
denigrate China's great, big, neverending achievements. But not only that,
they amplify all of the negative things the western countries do poorly like
class or race relations or other things citizens are constantly complaining
about in the media, and try to pretend they are covering up those while
hypocritically trying to judge Asian countries.

It's really quite a genius type of system when you look at how successful it
is, which legitimate the US contributed to with all of the pysop/intelligence
community stuff that they mastered. But of course it's 100x easier in a system
where media and education are entirely controlled, not just partially like in
the US (the Chinese aren't just dumb drones is what I'm saying but I'm not
convinced the state can maintain this delusion forever).

~~~
wangii
simple answer: we don't have alternatives. comparing with being meddling by
USA or any foreign power, I'd rather pick CCP.

No matter how well intentioned you guys are/were, I'll say it in your face: I
don't trust you. here is the problem: if you were pissed off by my remark,
then how could you overcome the trust issue? if you were not, how stupid I'm
going to be to trust you?

honestly, I think we deserve whatever we have right now, and so do you. how
about we just do business and leave the urge to 'help' other people in the
world in sci-fi books?

~~~
richardw
Not from the west. You don't have to trust people, but you should be free to
make up your own mind. Read what they say and decide.

In South Africa we used to have strict control over our news media. Having
opened up, I'd rather read and watch what I want, make my mind up, and not get
into trouble for voicing my opinion.

A free media fights corruption. If you have no corruption then you're a very
special country.

~~~
echaozh
Be free to make your own mind. The Chinese are making their own mind, right?
So what the fuss?

The most funny part when the US or other western countries point fingers at
Chinese having insufficient information of misinformation to decide for
themselves, is that a significant portion of their population still believes
in God, and in US specifically, people believe in Creationism.

I don't know, information is just information and can be manipulated and
interpreted in both ways. Is abortion a choice of the mother, or a violation
of rights of the child? Are guns tools to fight oppression or ways to kill
innocent people? They're both, but each side sees the other side as heretic
and intolerable.

Now, don't the Chinese people know there's corrutption in the country? Don't
they know there's censorship? Don't they even joke about it? US has problems
and people talk about it. China has problems and people talk about. In public.
On the Internet. China is not how you think it is, no need to paint it as a
monster.

~~~
coryfklein
> China has problems and people talk about. In public. On the Internet.

I'm sorry - but isn't that in direct contradiction to the censorship? Doesn't
the censorship prevent you from talking about things that Chinese leadership
thinks would reflect badly on them or the country?

------
lostmsu
Considering, that HK leader did not immediately withdrew the bill after the
first protest, it is only natural to assume, that that person does not
represent the will of the people. So it makes sense to impeach.

~~~
chrisseaton
> it is only natural to assume, that that person does not represent the will
> of the people. So it makes sense to impeach.

Is that what impeachment means? To remove someone because they've lost popular
support? I thought impeachment was rather about charging a public official
with some kind of crime or wrongdoing. Being unpopular isn't a crime.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _I thought impeachment was rather about charging a public official with some
> kind of crime or wrongdoing_

Impeachment “is the process by which a legislative body levels charges against
a government official” [1]. Standards vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
But since the decision is made by a political body, not judges, it is
ultimately a political decision.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment)

~~~
chrisseaton
> Impeachment “is the process by which a legislative body levels charges
> against a government official”

The article you've linked to says that in Hong Kong it requires 'serious
breach of law or dereliction of duty'. I can't see how becoming unpopular
would meet either of those conditions?

> since the decision is made by a political body, not judges

The article you've linked to says that in Hong Kong impeachment charges are
investigated by judges.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _it 's investigated by the judiciary_

A committee _chaired_ by a judge investigates [1]. It then recommends findings
to the LC. The LC, a political body, makes the decision to impeach.

> _in Hong Kong it requires 'serious breach of law or dereliction of duty'_

Practically speaking, based on history and the motivations of those involved,
popularity figures into impeachment processes. Being unpopular doesn’t lead to
impeachment alone. But pretty much anything could fit into Hong Kong’s
“dereliction of duty” standard, for instance.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment#Hong_Kong](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment#Hong_Kong)

------
jeff_carr
With conversations about some people that disappeared after some protests that
happened in 2014.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances)

------
zed88
I can recall from a personal experience while working for a UN agency.

We had a form with country dropdown selector, and it included Taiwan.

We had huge pressure from the local Chinese embassy to remove it.

And they also called up some really high up UN officials, all for a dropdown!

~~~
886
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations)

~~~
zed88
Interesting.

The Republic of China's most recent request for admission was turned down in
2007,[1] but a number of European governments—led by the United
States—protested to the UN's Office of Legal Affairs to force the global body
and its secretary-general to stop using the reference “Taiwan is a part of
China”.[2]

------
dang
Large thread from earlier today:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20196271](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20196271)

------
biggio
Why can't Hong Kong vote for independence?

~~~
abraae
For the same sort of reason that Texas can't?

~~~
alliao
Texas can't??

~~~
rayiner
It cannot:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Union](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Union).
Texas in fact voted to secede during the civil war, in a public referendum
where secession got 75% of the vote. (Or course, it should be noted that the
30% of the population that was enslaved could not vote.) After Texas was
defeated in the civil war, it was governed by a governor appointed by the
union president for five years until it was readmitted to the United States.

~~~
aiyodev
The Texas secession movement doesn't claim a right to secede. Texas retains
the right to split into five states. They plan to use the threat of adding 8
right-leaning senators to the US senate to convince democrats to let them
leave.

~~~
p1necone
Isn't Texas only a red state because of gerrymandering?

~~~
adventured
No. It's a mixed bag still favoring the Republicans.

2018 Texas governor election:

4.65 million (55.8%) votes for the Republican Abbott, to 3.56 million (42.5%)
for Valdez.

2018 Texas Senate race:

4.26 million votes for Cruz vs 4.05 million for O'Rourke. That's with the left
pouring enermous support and resources behind O'Rourke. Cruz raised $37
million, O'Rourke raised $80 million.

2014 Texas Senate race:

2.86 million (61.6%) votes for the Republican Cornyn vs 1.58 million (34.4%)
votes for Alameel.

Republicans are still winning the popular vote.

------
j16sdiz
the protest was not just about anti china:
[https://medium.com/@sidneyfong/hong-kongs-extradition-
bill-i...](https://medium.com/@sidneyfong/hong-kongs-extradition-bill-is-not-
just-about-anti-china-hysteria-2b268fe409f4)

------
thedudeabides5
Does anyone know the mechanism by which she could be forced to withdraw?

Impeachment is usually for breaking the law, not putting forth a bad one...

~~~
Leary
She can be impeached by the Legislative Council, which is unlikely given the
Pro-Beijing faction holds a majority.

~~~
thedudeabides5
ok, thanks, and how are the members of the legislative council appointed?

~~~
ajdlinux
Half the members are elected directly as representatives of geographical
constituencies, while the other half are elected to "functional
constituencies" where voting is restricted to individuals working in certain
professions and companies/organisations in certain industries.

The functional constituencies create an imbalance that favours the pro-Beijing
side.

------
ngcc_hk
Being one of the protestor out of 2m and feet still hurt after 8 hour walking
and stopping among children but mostly young man, let me try to supplement
that article why especially those not mentioned in the article.

This related to two most common slogans shouted by the 2m. (The 3rd most
common one is “Hong Kong Add Oil” not an issue per sec. )

(a) Withdrawn not suspension

In 2003 the first million protest after handover, a even worst law called
article 23 was called for. It was ignored just last jun 9 walk, but later
withdraw. There is no million walk into street since.

Hence the precedent is clear. Withdrawn should be done. Instead the
administration just do a suspension. I do not know why prof chan used the
phrase indefinitely. That is not in chinese. In fact the message that this is
suspicion only temporary is clear. Whilst no timetable, the chief executive
said her experience of consultation would take until end of this year. Not
indefinitely. There is even a statement by the Chinese authority also stressed
this temporary arrangement and in fact promise to chase after the behind-the-
scene power.

Hence the major slogan of the 2nd protest is to withdrawn the bill not
suspension.

(b) No riot and release those arrested

There are the issue of the declaration of riot around 3 or 6 p.m. Lots of
people will be charged under this dreadful law where 7-10 years may be
involved. Even standby could be charged if you are on site after that time.
The law was drafted by the British against the chinese communist in 1960s
during the cultural revolution era. Police can declare and arrest any
gathering ... funny is that there are exception to this like religion
gathering which the police cannot declare as riot. But in general police can
declare and do arrest. Some of the cases should be charged as police excess of
force, like aim and shoot a protestor from behind when he is a long way and
just walking. Now using the law it will be the other way round. The guy might
be charged and found guilty as part of riot gathering. (In fact, no one told
on the scene that a riot is going on. Nothing throwing, no burning, no glass
broken, ... etc. You may see throwing stuff in tv but that is much earlier and
another group. The bulk of the peaceful demonstrator are not involved. In fact
the official press interview at 3 pm by the commissioner of police is stated
as disturbance. There is some argument spent out who declare riot in the press
release later at 6 pm. Hence I am not sure about the timing. Just to distance
himself, the chief secretary (deputy to the top lady CE) said the top
management do not know about the declaration. They do support whatever the
commissioner did.)

We asked for the withdrawn of that declaration and release the arrested.

(One of the major upset is to two arrest of patient in Hosiptal. The doctor
and nurse do not report the case and somehow the police come and arrest them.
... too many details here but by and large the medical profession seriously
not like this. There are procedure and the police did not follow them.
Relationship is very poisonous now between the two.)

There are other usual demands like held accountable of the case. And other
slogans, some quite nasty as Cantonese is a very nasty language. When 10646
was defined, some found it odd by the hk extension is full of male and female
description. Hundreds of them. Sorry for the kids to expose during the 2m
match. But that is the language. Can’t no blood wine or poem ...

 __*

Back to the extradition law, not mention is the public object to it as we do
not trust the chinese legal system.

(Btw usually extradition law apply to foreigner not citizen).

Further not mention is the diplomat of Eu, Britain and official from different
camps of USA are raised official diplomatic objection. It is not just about
local citizen. There are 85,000 American lives in Hong Kong currently. There
is no consultation whatsoever. And it seemed the discussion is about reading
the bill to them.

In this regards, even strange is the ignorance of Taiwan in the process, even
though it was used as the key reason for the rush.

Btw, found out today that even macau our sister region has thought about it
and do not enacted similar law.

I think a better law will at least consult stakeholder so majority are on your
side. Then you can crush ...

Anyway as commented living between powers like china and USA is not easy. You
can access Facebook then not just 20 km north (hong kong is that small).
Really not good to unite literally the whole world against you and also your
own city wholly against you as well.

As mentioned in the article after the umbrella movement there are a lot of bad
blood. But she not just united the democratic camp but even the pro-
establishment camp.

Great political achievement in a sense. Too tired and hope it is not too
confusing.

Hong Kong Add Oil.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I do not know why prof chan used the phrase indefinitely. That is not in
> chinese. In fact the message that this is suspicion only temporary is clear.

“Indefinitely” in this context does not mean “infinitely”, it means “without a
predefined end time” if it is merely _suspected_ that the suspension will be
lifted at so uncertain future time, “indefinitely” appears correct.

~~~
my_username_is_
The criticism isn't that the translation was a lie, but rather it didn't
capture the spirit of what she was saying (possibly with the intention to
mislead international media). Indefinitely is frequently understood to mean
infinitely, so by using this English word it is certainly misleading.

------
mnming
Almost all press focus on the fact that there are two millions people on the
street and the possibility of power abuse caused by this bill. None of them
pay any attention to pros & cons of this bill from a rational perspective.
People barely remembers that the origin of this bill is to extradite one
brutal killer of a Taiwan girl. No one is seeking middle ground or
constructive result.

People see, people fear, people destroy, without any regard to pragmatism and
rationality. Great.

~~~
song
It was the brutal killing of a HK girl not a Taiwan girl. The murderer killed
his girlfriend while traveling to Taiwan for Valentine Day.

Also Taiwan's government has explicitly stated that this bill is not needed to
bring the murderer to justice and that this has only been used as an excuse to
pass this law.

Additionally Taiwan said that if the bill pass they would refuse to use it to
bring this murderer to justice as they are against this bill.

And finally, per the bill, the central government of the country need to
approve the extradition. China doesn't recognize the central government of
Taiwan so as per the law community in HK, it's not sure how this bill could
ever be used in cases like that murder.

So, yes people have discussed it, people have their facts straight about this
bill.

------
jyew
I do not understand the sentiment on HK March.

No one bat an eye when a China citizen arrested on Canada soil to be extradite
to US.

When China trying to pass a extradition bill on a China territory, the world
goes batshit.

The reason that most journalist peddling is you may be trial unfairly in
mainland China. You always get a fair trial. China law is fair in China.
Shariah law is fair in the Islamic country. Plead the fifth is fair in US.

The problem comes when one thinks their own version of law is better than
their neighbouring country law.

And those who comment about how hk democracy and China CCP. Democracy is not a
be all system. In a Democratic system, the 51% will always dictate against the
other 49%. I grew up in "progressive" multi racial country...so progressive
that the majority race which have the Democratic power pass bills that give
their race significant advantage over other citizen. Slippery slope system.

Disclaimer: I'm a 3rd gen Chinese descent grew up in a Democratic country and
living in China now.

~~~
dosshell
I agree that one should respect other countries law, from their point of view.
But when you are not allowed (read killed) to protest against the ones who
decides the law, that is a big problem whatever the laws are.

Democracy is not only about majority votes, it is about free speech, the
ability to review and criticize the government. It is about that the people do
not get censored information but where the people are the bosses of the
government, not the other way around.

