
The Botmakers Who Rule the Obsessive World of Streetware - rpvnwnkl
https://www.wired.com/2017/05/using-bots-to-buy-supreme-limited-edition-streetwear/
======
sahara
Not that any of these "peek into the subculture" style articles ever get all
the details just right but this:

 _Then, in the spring of 2014, the company announced a collaboration with Nike
on a basketball sneaker called the Foamposite. Supreme had collaborated with
sneaker companies for years, but Foamposites were especially prized by
sneakerheads. All of a sudden, Supreme had a whole new audience—one already
accustomed to limited releases and camping out to get them._

is a glaring error. Supreme has never not been a favored brand of
sneakerheads, and that relationship surely didn't start with Odd Future or
some recent Nike collaboration. It goes all the way back to the 90s/early 00s
when everybody on Niketalk was pairing box logo tees with their vintage Air
Maxes and, contrary to the assertions in the article, all these brands
(Supreme, Stussy, Freshjive, etc) were transitioning away from being purely
skate/surf focused and starting down the streetwear path they've been on ever
since.

~~~
dmix
Supreme wasn't a sneaker brand though was it? Was this their first big collab
with Nike which brought the full brunt of the sneakerhead culture into
Supreme's streetwear one? Even though there is a lot of crossover between the
two it may not be as 1-to-1 as it seems, and brought in a lot of new buyers to
their niche.

~~~
sahara
There have been numerous Supreme x Nike collaborations, starting (I believe)
with this Nike SB Dunk in 2002: [https://www.flightclub.com/nike-dunk-low-pro-
sb-black-black-...](https://www.flightclub.com/nike-dunk-low-pro-sb-black-
black-cement-grey-080033) which at the time were arguably the most sought
after sneakers in the world, and still command over a thousand dollars a pair.

And while Supreme never produced any shoes themselves, for many years neither
did A Bathing Ape (and the BAPEsta's and their collabs with Adidas were hardly
a core part of their business). Nevertheless BAPE is also a brand that
utilized the same hype+scarcity model and has always been associated with
sneakerhead culture.

The fact remains that anyone who self-identifies as a sneakerhead has known
about and most likely worn Supreme for a decade or two. This is not a new
development. The new buyers (and the fact that you tend to see more and more
Supreme out in the world and on social media) aren't a result of the
subculture finding a new obsession. Rather, what was once a niche has gone way
mainstream, and tons of people who were never associated with sneaker culture
have become interested in the trend.

To wit, by the time the Supreme Foamposites mentioned in the article were
released in 2014, many dedicated sneakerheads would have argued that Supreme
was completely played out, usurped by herbs, normals and— _shudder_
—teenagers. (Then in 2015 they all went out and bought the camo Jordan 5
collab anyway.)

~~~
at-fates-hands
> There have been numerous Supreme x Nike collaborations, starting (I believe)
> with this Nike SB Dunk in 2002

I've been a skater most of my life. I was completely perplexed when a bunch of
the guys I skate with regularly suddenly became sneakerheads almost overnight.

This explains a LOT.

~~~
sahara
This is actually a really interesting footnote in the history of Nike's
evolution and expansion into different markets. They (as well as Adidas and
the other big brands) had been trying like hell to entice skaters to wear
Nikes with little success. Much of what they released was really techy looking
(like: [http://skately.com/library/shoes/nike-sb-zoom-
tre](http://skately.com/library/shoes/nike-sb-zoom-tre) or:
[http://skately.com/library/shoes/nike-sb-
url](http://skately.com/library/shoes/nike-sb-url) ) and you would have been
mocked for wearing them.

But there was a history of some of skateboarding's most iconic figures wearing
Nikes, particularly Jordan 1s but also Blazers and Dunks, in the 80s and early
90s. And it turned out that if you took a Dunk Low, overstuffed the tongue,
and added some Nike cushioning tech (bonus points for stitching a Chocolate
logo on the heel: [https://www.kicksonfire.com/nike-sb-skateboarding-
releases/n...](https://www.kicksonfire.com/nike-sb-skateboarding-
releases/nike-sb-skateboarding-2002-releases/06-2002-june-releases/nike-dunk-
low-pro-sb-chocolate-anthracite-black/) ), it fit in just fine with the
Osirises of the world that were popular at that time, or classics like the eS
Koston, and performed at least as well, if not better (while, critically, not
appearing to be built for performance at all).

To your point, Nike quickly leveraged that "vintage cool" aspect that only
they could offer, plus collaborations with artists like Geoff McFetridge who
had credibility among skaters (and maybe more importantly, among photographers
and videographers who shot them), to finally convince skaters that they could
wear Nikes without turning into a jock or a dork.

~~~
at-fates-hands
>> And it turned out that if you took a Dunk Low, overstuffed the tongue, and
added some Nike cushioning tech

This is so funny. I remember loving those shoes, but every manufacturer
thought super cushy tongues were the way to go in that era. Every time we got
a new pair, my buddies and I would take a few hours and razorblade them open,
pull out all nearly all the stuffing and then sew them back up.

Apparently they finally caught on and stopped making those horrendously huge
tongues.

~~~
sahara
I always wondered about whether that was meant to have any practical function.
(Protective cushioning at the expense of board feel? Shoes stay on better
while untied?)

Now the pendulum has swung all the back in the other direction. All these
years later, Koston is signed to Nike, and his pro-model basically just looks
like a running shoe: [http://store.nike.com/us/en_us/pd/sb-koston-max-mens-
skatebo...](http://store.nike.com/us/en_us/pd/sb-koston-max-mens-
skateboarding-shoe/pid-11236858/pgid-12086626)

------
chrisallick
I was interviewed for a similar article.

tldr; smart young people who happen to discover a very Luddite community and
applied tech to buy up product and re-sell.

Can't be shut down cause brands will lose face if they "care."

Most scripts are either headless chrome instances using phantom is or
selenium.

The one I built years ago was just a chrome extension with some options.

Some are iOS apps with a web view and objected JavaScript.

~~~
figgis
> Most scripts are either headless chrome instances using phantom is or
> selenium.

I would think that using regular HTTP requests is better/more popular then
running a headless browser for this kind of work. cUrl, Python Requests, etc.

~~~
mmcwilliams
That is more desirable, but with more js rendering on the front end and anti-
botting measures by retailers, it's not reliable anymore.

~~~
mbrookes
JS rendering on the front end surely doesn't impact calls to the back-end that
much (HTTP POST, REST API, GraphQL etc.)?

These don't need a headless browser.

~~~
xzel
When a store is selling 20 pairs of a shoe, they will literally look at how
the person who bough the pair did their web execution. Using a something like
python requests is faster sure, but most of the time looking more "real" is
more important. I've written a few of these and do both depending on the
company (size etc.), their website, their security etc. Some of these
companies have gone as far as setting up a web game people play and the
highest scores get a pair of the shoe (slamjamsocialism).

~~~
darksim905
Can you go into more detail about this game? First I've heard of it, and it
clearly isn't a popular choice as opposed to say, a splash screen or other
methods of deterring bots.

~~~
xzel
Yeah. At first is was pong. People figure out how to send fake scores really
easily, myself included. It was just an packed js file and you could
deobfuscate it, pull in the score generating js and send fake http response to
their server. This time, sjs did some type of side scrolled with a dinosaur
jumping over buildings. Link here: [http://www.slamjamsocialism.com/arcad-
ism/](http://www.slamjamsocialism.com/arcad-ism/)

------
technofiend
These guys need to take it to the next level - defeat the bots by burning them
and drop web presence entirely. This is a brand that would benefit from
stealing the popup idea - random times and places only insiders know about, so
dropping web sales despite being anathema on HN might actually _build_ the
exclusivity of their brand.

That or take it back out of band in a way bots can't easily overcome like 2fa
tied to a device the customer can't or won't give up. I.E. Sell a supreme
watch that generates FIDO codes from an enclaved 2fa seed. I suppose you'll
need to manually trigger inputs as well just to prevent someone parking a
webcam on their watch. At some point you'll add enough delay the quoted 19
seconds for 38 orders will become impossible. You don't need to add too much
complexity; just enough to make it impractical for the bots to compete with
customers.

You could also add randomness by making people accept one use codes for grab
bags of items. They'd have to preregister for whatever items they might want
but then it's accept or reject the offer in a timed window. Up the risk factor
enough and perhaps a human will want to make a decision rather than leave it
to a bot.

And one more idea: co-opt and co-brand: sell a line of botmaker branded gear
sold by the winner of a botting contest. Take input from botters on how to
raise the bar.

~~~
stupidhn
> _This is a brand that would benefit from stealing the popup idea_

The brand is already hyper-exclusive and doing extremely well, and I didn't
get the impression from the article that there is any concern about the bots.

Perhaps these people are fine doing what they're doing, and don't need to
grow, grow, grow the brand. Perhaps it's Silicon Valley that should be
learning some lessons here...

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pjc50
Street _wear_ , not ware; interesting typo there.

The whole thing is extremely William Gibson: limited edition almost-secret
branded products plus high-tech. Even the use of Futura is something Gibson
would put in as a detail.

~~~
chongli
You're totally right. I had no idea this headline had anything to do with
clothing. All I could picture was back alley merchants and the shady deckers
coming and going beneath a gray sky.

------
mywittyname
Reading about this stuff makes me wish I could trade my engineering ability in
for business acumen.

Maybe I could create a bot that actually buys from knockoffs from a site that
I run.

~~~
ge96
Yeah sucks when you can build stuff but don't know what to build. "Delegate
the rest" they say... to the entrepreneurs that hire developers to build the
dream as a contractor/percentage.

I think there is also the "following passion and money is an after thought"

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Mathnerd314
I've never understood why this is so complicated. Just do a week-long auction,
hide bids on the last day (blind auction) to prevent bid sniping, and charge
around the 80th percentile of bids to prevent winner's curse and ensure resale
value. No bots, no problems, pretty much completely transparent.

The offline equivalent with e.g. Black Friday is similar, except you pay with
time by waiting in line instead of with money.

~~~
sahara
Hypebeasts trying desperately to get the hot new whatever and coming up empty
handed, thereby increasing anticipation for the next drop, is a feature not a
bug.

------
digi_owl
Nothing makes a guy feel old as reading about fashion...

~~~
jachee
GenXer checking in to confirm.

------
isubkhankulov
These types of bots run rampant in the live event ticketing ecosystem.
Ticketmaster and others constantly fight bots with turing tests and other
defenses to prevent electronic scalping.

~~~
linkregister
I'm surprised that Ticketmaster hasn't already captured the delta between what
individuals will pay a scalper and what the scalper pays.

~~~
isubkhankulov
louis ck has been vocal about this issue. if ticketmaster/artists sold tickets
at the "market " value, then a significant percentage of fans would be locked
out the market.

~~~
ryandrake
...and what's the problem with that? I'm a big fan of Porsches, but I can tell
you that Porsche doesn't lower the price of their cars below market value so
that all of their fans can afford one. Is there any other industry that
deliberately sells their products way below market value where the purpose is
something other than undercutting competition?

~~~
learc83
Event tickets are just a small fraction of the money to be made. They want
ordinary people to be able to go to events because that helps their brand.

If Porsche made most of their money from branded apparel, they'd probably have
a different pricing strategy.

~~~
95014_refugee
Ferrari make lots/most of their money from branded <stuff>, and it certainly
hasn't affected their pricing strategy.

Quite the opposite, if anything; the exclusivity of the halo product increases
the (perceived) value of the merch.

~~~
learc83
They don't make anywhere near most of their money from branded products. The
last year I can find easily is 2014. They made less than $500 million in
revenue from merchandise and sponsorship, and $2.2 billion in car and part
sales.

Margin is very high on their cars, so there is no way they're making anywhere
close to most of their money through branded merchandise.

Contrast that with the Music industry. They did about $15 billion in music
sales, and only about $8 billion in concert revenue in 2015.

Musicians do make a significant portion of their money from concert revenue,
but musicians aren't the primary drivers of ticket prices.

------
QML
> If you have no idea why someone would pay $100 just to get a crack at
> spending another $200 on a pair of sneakers, that’s OK: Supreme isn’t meant
> for you anyway.

Anyone know how stop yourself from mis-valuating companies and products just
because you yourself doesn't find value in it?

~~~
pjc50
A bit Buddhist, but: teach yourself there is no such thing as value.

At least in market economies, it's literally what someone will pay for a
thing, which depends on a whole confluence of taste, feeling, circumstance,
and Maslow's pyramid.

In this case, unavailability is part of the pricing. Not only is it expensive,
but it's difficult to buy at all!

(The related question of "how do I find people who want to spend lots of money
on shoes" is much harder)

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darksim905
I'm kind of pissed off to this see this article. I was working on something
for DEFCON & my CFP got denied because it wasn't "technical" enough, yet here
it's all everyone is talking about.

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kelvin0
Yeah, can someone TL;DR this? I can't read the content unless I disable my Ad-
Blocker.

Thanks,

~~~
mywittyname
A couple of guys write a bot to buy clothes from a "hip" NYC clothing company
because people are apparently willing to pay $800 for a $150 black hoodie with
a poorly sown on "patch" that says "supreme".

~~~
Nullabillity
s/$150/$15/

~~~
mywittyname
I double checked:

Box logo hooded sweatshirt, black

Retail: $148

------
Buge
Streetwear

