
US International Students Lose Internships Because of Outdated Work Policies - lord_sudo
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2019/06/princeton-opt-joint-letter
======
dmode
I would highly encourage international students to reconsider their plans of
studying in the US. I am coming from my own personal experience, but as you
can read from this thread or any immigration forum, the policies of the
current administration are increasingly hostile towards immigrants.
Especially, Chinese and Indian students should rethink. Few reasons why not to
study in the US:

1\. USCIS has made the OPT process increasingly difficult as yo u can read
from this article. However, OPT is the only option if you want to work in the
US post graduation. Chances of getting an employer prior to graduation, who
can file your H1 in April and wait for you to join in October is close to zero

2\. H1 visa is a crapshoot lottery and if you are not a STEM student, you will
most likely get one shot at it. If you are not picked, that's the end of it

3\. Even if you get selected in H1, 70% of cases result in RFE for BS reasons
that a hostile USCIS agent made up on the spot. H1 laws are so vague that a
rogue USCIS officer can make up any reason to deny your petition.

4\. Even if you get an approved H1 petition, it comes with a ton of strings
attached. And if you travel out of the country you have to get a visa from
your home country or Canada or Mexico. The visa process also been made
extremely difficult, with routine delays and 3-6 months wait in many cases.
Imagine being stuck abroad and having to let your employer know that they have
to wait months before you can be back.

5\. If you are an Indian student currently, the path to green card simply
doesn't exist. There is a 100 year wait for a green card

6\. Points #1-5 above are not bugs, but features. US education only makes
sense for rich students, who want to study for a few years and return. But
then, why would you want to study in the US and deal with the harassment in US
consulates and embassies to get an F-1 visa or deal with hostile CBP agents
who treat you like enemies after flying for 40 hours.

~~~
winter_blue
This was perfectly said, and spot on. (Thank you.)

Reading about how Canada welcomes skilled immigrants, almost brought tears to
my eyes. If your English is good and you've studied in Canada (even just a
bachelor's degree), you're given a Post-Graduation Work Permit (PGWP) upon
graduation, and are practically guaranteed to eventually get a Canadian green
card via the Canadian Experience Class (Express Entry) program.

For folks outside Canada, good English, education beyond a bachelor's degree,
and 3 years of skilled work experience, guarantees you'll have enough points
to get a Federal Skilled Worker green card immediately.

I haven't looked at countries besides Canada; but I would strongly recommend
Canada over the U.S. for anyone seeking to migrate on the basis of skills.

~~~
perfunctory
> I haven't looked at countries besides Canada; but I would strongly recommend
> Canada over the U.S. for anyone seeking to migrate on the basis of skills.

I would also suggest to consider the Netherlands. The procedure for highly
skilled migrants is super simple. Pretty much the only condition is that your
employer pays you a sufficient wage.

[https://ind.nl/en/work/Pages/Highly-skilled-
migrant.aspx](https://ind.nl/en/work/Pages/Highly-skilled-migrant.aspx)

~~~
throwmex
Canada is an English speaking country except Québec. Why would a highly
skilled immigrant learn yet another language to immigrate to Netherlands, if
given a choice between an English speaking country and non English one ?

~~~
perfunctory
Everybody speaks English in the Netherlands. People live there for years
without learning the local language. Working language in many companies that
hire migrants is English.

~~~
throwmex
Can those employees progress in their career without speaking the native
language ?

Will the kids get an education in English ?

Can the immigrant take part in social activities ?

Can they talk to their doctors or to the grocery store in English without
misunderstanding.

How is the attitude towards English ? Will a nationalist government change
those English friendliness ?

There are things like these a skilled economic immigrant should consider
before immigrating to a non English speaking country.

Take the example of Québec, although it's a province in the English speaking
Canada, immigrants who speak only English are not welcomed and frowned upon.
They find it hard to get by. They end up moving to other provinces. If the
immigrant is not white, the difficulties are 2x in Québec. To be fair,
Québec's hate for English is well founded if you examine their colonial
history and hence the strict language laws.

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diebeforei485
Sounds like Princeton should be offering a CPT course for credits during the
summer like pretty much every other top-ranked university. Students would
likely have to pay some amount of tuition for those credits, but that is not
too bad in the context of a paid internship.

USCIS (the agency that adjudicates OPT cases) is likely massively overloaded
with processing border asylum cases at the moment - and recent media reports
suggest they have been roping in employees who would usually work other parts
of the immigration system to work asylum cases.

~~~
djakjxnanjak
With an endowment of over $2 million per student, Princeton doesn’t need to
charge tuition at all - it’s a choice they can make though.

~~~
killjoywashere
I've heard the Ivies described as hedge funds with ownership stakes in small
liberal arts schools.

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olcor
The writing on the wall has been there for quite some time. I’ve been hearing
lots of issues with foreign students facing issues, not just for OPT, but also
difficulties getting or continuing assistantships, finding campus jobs, facing
direct/indirect threats of losing their visa, etc. This is to be expected;
international students are in a vulnerable position, and can be easily taken
advantage of by both university officials and by industry (assuming they
somehow get a job).

I’d advise any foreign aspirant to avoid the USA for further studies unless
they can easily afford tuition. No need to fill university coffers with out-
of-state tuition for such degrading treatment.

~~~
killjoywashere
What's interesting from my perspective as the parent of a US teenager about to
start senior year of high school: it's hard not to notice that schools are
concurrently less and less friendly toward in-state students. They clearly
enjoy those sweet out-of-state dollars. I have a friend who's daughter is
captain of the gymnastics team, has a 4.something, all the STEM AP courses,
and still got rejected by every UC school. The UC system might as well hang a
shingle "Locals, keep out".

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yur501
I am doing my PhD in Netherlands after studying in Belgium. I also worked in
USA for a few years as a software engineer. Work culture is more relaxed in
EU. My wife is allowed to work here from day of her arrival even though I am a
PhD student. Even on a single salary we were able to travel around Europe. I
had the option to study in USA for my PhD. Looking at the current situation, I
am very happy with my decision to stay in Europe. Public transport is great,
language is not a problem in big cities, and food/wine/beer/cheese is amazing.

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dublidu
I was supposed to mentor an intern this summer but his OPT didn't get approved
in time. This is such bullshit.

~~~
option
Routinely happens to us. We made an offer (full time) to a graduating PhD
student (US university) from one of the famous deep learning professors (one
of three who won a Turing award recently). The guy really like our team and
project yet he had Chinese citizenship and when declining our offer said he
simply chose Canada vs US.

~~~
lagolinguini
As an international student who went to a top US university, I'm faced with a
similar situation when it comes to H1B. I understand I have no inherent right
to be here, and that part of the reason why H1Bs are difficult to get is
because of the many frivoulous petitions on behalf of my countrymen from large
IT consultancy companies from my company. But when it comes the option between
US and Canada, I'd rather pick Canada just for the peace of mind, even though
I'd prefer to work in the US and the salaries in Canada are much lower.

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harimau777
How reciprocal are international study opportunities? What I mean is:

Do US students have similar opportunities to study at foreign universities as
foreign students have to study at US universities?

When comparing universities with similar entrance requirements (e.g. state
schools, prestigious private schools, ivy league, etc.) are there a comparable
number of US and foreign openings?

How often is instruction in English? (I realize this isn't entirely fair, but
the reality is that high quality foreign language training isn't available at
many US schools in the same way it is in Europe; which isn't the student's
fault).

It seems to me that if the opportunities are not symmetrical then it is
reasonable for there to be at least some protection/preference for domestic
students. However, I think that needs to be balanced against the benefits of
attracting foreign talent and expanding diversity. Either way, my
understanding is that the US visa system is largely irrational and broken so
it should definitely be reformed.

~~~
valarauko
There are definitely international study opportunities, though the direction
usually isn't reciprocal. For example, while Indian students are interested in
universities in English speaking countries, there is a sizable international
student population in India from East Africa, the Middle East, Iran, and the
immediate neighbourhood. Premier institutions, that indian students would kill
for, reserve a percentage of seats for students from SAARC countries on the
basis of their SATs scores. Private universities offer nicer hostels and
emenities for foreign students.

~~~
selimthegrim
SAARC excluding PK?

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solidsnack9000
The headline might be better written as, Princeton's unwillingness to offer
CPT is impacting international students.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
That won't grab as many clicks and eyeballs though.

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sheeshkebab
My previous employer hired F1 grads not bc they were better but bc they were
cheaper. I know that bc I interviewed hires (it’s hard to resist for employers
the idea that they can get two guys for almost the price of one).

these opt programs should be regulated same way they do H1, or better
eliminate them. If you really want these graduates to stay and work in the
country, just give them permanent residency from the start. It’s better for
everyone.

~~~
repiret
I think the real fix is to have the education visa include summer work
authorization.

~~~
briandear
French education visas allow 20 or 25 hours of work per week built into the
visa. But getting to stay after the education is complete is really hard for
non-EU citizens.

~~~
seszett
If you have a _master_ or _licence professionnelle_ it's easy enough to stay,
as long as you get a job offer for more than 40k€/year or so (which isn't that
hard).

If you have a lower diploma than that and you don't want to study for a higher
level in France, you can only stay if you get a job offer among a list of
needed jobs in your region (IT-related jobs are needed in almost all regions).
There's a lot of red tape, but it's not as difficult as it seems.

------
couchand
Off-topic, but check out the moire effect on that image! It's only noticeable
(to me) when scrolling, which is an interesting twist.

------
ajspencer
This is tragic. Can anyone on HackerNews help them with advocacy or employment
opportunities?

~~~
horyzen
Unfortunately employment opportunity doesn't help in this case. They are
already offered jobs/interns but cannot legally start working (anywhere)
because they have to wait for the work permit (OPT) to be approved.

------
ramraj07
As someone who got his OPT extension before this cluster but still got his H1B
rejected, it's safe to say I will _highly_ discourage anyone I know from
coming to the States for higher studies. Especially from India, since the
Trump USCIS seems to have a special hatred towards Indians (because of
outsourced workers abusing H1B? But that's not even the same people).

Till recently I felt guilty of the fact that every smart person I ever grew up
knowing had emmigrated to the States and left India behind, but maybe this is
a good thing for India now? Not sure yet.

~~~
holy_city
The rumblings I've heard is that the administration is dragging its feet
almost anywhere they can, wrt immigration.

It's not just H1Bs from India, but nearly all visas from all countries. Events
that are supposed to take place in 6 weeks are at 6 months, and it doesn't
seem to be documented or reported anywhere. I've only heard about it through
some friends going through it or otherwise involved in the processes.

~~~
maxxxxx
It’s probably pretty difficult to square their anti immigration stance with
their claim of being business friendly if you consider that most businesses
love cheap immigrants. Hard to shape this into a coherent policy.

~~~
satya71
Immigrants are not necessarily cheap. H1B problems do bind some employees to
their employers removing their leverage. I'm an immigrant, I can tell you I do
not come cheap.

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
The question is whether you come cheaper than a similar locally sourced
employee who isn't bounded by H1B, not cheaper than a barista.

------
debatem1
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she

With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

~~~
barry-cotter
International students at Princeton do not exactly qualify as wretched refuse.
Almost all are going to be paying full fees; they’re from rich families.

~~~
debatem1
Do you think the truly destitute get better treatment at our hands?

Do you think those words are inscribed on the base of the statue of liberty as
a warning to the wealthy? A "keep out!" sign for the hopeful and striving
students of the world?

~~~
thrower123
It's such weird revisionism to think that the US was ever really enthused
about welcoming immigrants. That's the ideal, but the reality is that people
are clannish and tend towards a "fuck you, got mine" attitude.

It's more like pledging a fraternity; pay the dues, get shit on, go through
the hazing, and eventually you come out the other side assimilated and ready
to haze the next incoming pledge class.

~~~
debatem1
It's ideal but we shouldn't worry about being ideal because we weren't in the
past, hmm? Well, I reject entirely the thesis that because humans "tend
toward" tribalism or selfishness or any other flaw we must abandon ourselves
to the worst excesses of those impulses.

We can, and should, be better. I think that starts with not giving up on our
ideals so timidly.

