

Why morality doesn't need God - monkeygrinder
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2910081.htm

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drKarl
In fact, moral based on religion is completely arbitrary. Some years ago I
read a book titled "Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches: The Riddles of Culture" by
the anthropologist Marvin Harris, where he explained that the reason why it is
forbidden for muslims and jews to eat pork, is because those religions where
originated in a desertic land, and pigs roll over themselves in mud where they
are hot, and if there is no mud they roll over themselves in their own feces,
which is a danger to health. That health rule became a part of the religious
rules, and thus followers of these religions shall not eat pork even if they
are living in a different place. Religion alone has caused more suffering in
history than any other idea, and has lead to wars, deaths, torture,
discrimination, intolerance, sexual repression, sexist discrimination to
women, and a slowdown for science, culture and knowledge. How is that moral
acceptable?

~~~
JCThoughtscream
Bah. Religion is merely the excuse for the sort of behaviors we, in our modern
context, would consider amoral. Religion's also /caused/ all of the polar
opposites you list - peace, life, healing, acceptance, tolerance, openness,
women's rights, and advancements of the sciences, of culture (especially art -
really, are you kidding me?) and of the general wealth of knowledge in
general.

Seriously. As an /atheist/, I don't have much qualms with the idea of faith.
The institutionalization of superstitions , prejudices and epistemologically
unsound foundations of moral judgment, sure - lots of problems there. But you
can't really say with a straight face that religion's been nothing but a
bummer for mankind without ignoring the vast realm of accomplishments made in
its name.

But all achievements - and all tragedies - were made by human hands. Which is
where at least my own stance is made: it isn't religion's fault that man is
occasionally evil, as religion is nothing but a concept - and abstracts in a
vacuum are value-neutral. It is, in the end, man's fault that man is, at
times, evil.

~~~
drKarl
Religion's also /caused/ all of the polar opposites you list - peace, life,
healing, acceptance, tolerance, openness, women's rights, and advancements of
the sciences,

Could you please elaborate on how did religion cause peace... LIFE????? er...
HEALING???? acceptance, tolerance and opennes, women's rights and advancements
of the sciences??

Ok I agree there is a lot of religious art, but that was possible because
Catholic Church was (and is) veeeeeeeeeery wealthy. That doesn't mean that art
wouldn't have advanced if religion did not exist at all.

"But all achievements - and all tragedies - were made by human hands." I
completely agree with you on that. There are good things and there are bad
things made by people, and there would be good things and bad things as well
if there were not religion at all. There's a famous sentence "There's good
people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but it takes
religion for good people doing bad things".

~~~
JCThoughtscream
Peace: the church pushed for peace between principalities. Islam's notable for
stressing nonviolence between fellow believers (at least, outside of
fundamentalists, whose hypernarrow interpretation of their holy texts arguably
makes them more of a deviant cult than fellow believers). Though even Buddhism
isn't without its history of violence, humans being what they are, it is
explicitly a religion of pacifism.

Life: The practice of medicine was often spearheaded by the churches. Most
religions mandate successful propagation and child-rearing. The Judeochristian
religions in particular stresses that to save one life is equivalent to saving
all lives.

Acceptance, tolerance and openness: A progressive thing; the idea of trans-
societal equality can be said to originate from the idea that all are equal
before the eyes of the faith's deity. Buddhism especially, even without a
deity, puts emphasis not on material wealth or power but the attainment of
personal enlightenment, regardless of background.

Women's rights: Surprisingly true. Islam in earlier centuries actually
spearheaded the idea of women having innate rights, even if said rights were
often inferior to those of men. Buddhism, again, puts no special emphasis on
gender. The Tao considers male and female to be equals of different
properties.

Advancement of sciences: The Church outright /funded/ many pioneering
scientists and experiments, if they weren't involved outright in its process.
Mendel's studies of genetic inheritance was done as a monk. The Vatican was
responsible for postulating the Big Bang theory of universal origin. Many
scientists see their profession as a way to better understand the mind and
intent of their deity.

Art: If you think I'm just talking about the stuff commissioned by the
Vatican, you are /sorely/ mistaken. And Eurocentric too, so double-shame on
you. The history of art is nearly inseparable from the history of religion -
and the first forms of art were often means of religious expression.

Pithy sayings are just pithy sayings. It takes a bad man in good clothing to
profess piety and pacifism on one hand and victimize with the other. What your
quote describes is "hypocrisy," which is a universal problem in human culture,
and not particularly bound by religion. Atheists have no monopoly on ethics
and morality - we simply have a more concrete theory of origin on the subject,
and better predictive elements on its formulation.

------
monkeygrinder
The writer is not stating that there is no God. He is stating that the premise
that we need God to have morality is false. Human society intrinsically has to
be moral in order to function. It is the model that best works, and when there
is an exception, say a psychopath killing women, society will punish that
person (whether you believe it is the hand of God or not). The idea that an
atheist, or secular, society would irrevocably slide into amoral behaviour is
simply illogical.

------
yason
Morality is a human creation. People just associate it with a god to boost up
their moral arguments.

In reality, there's no good or bad. There are just imbalances in dynamics
between people, seeking harmony. Which action yields that balancing outcome
all depends on the circumstances, the situation, and the context. Most of that
is what we can't see, until maybe in hindsight.

------
mackfreddie
Please don't turn Hacker News into an argumentative religious platform. We're
all here for business, technology, misc. nerdiness.

------
mbateman
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma>

------
michael_dorfman
Isn't the existence of Buddhism enough to trivially confirm the thesis
statement?

------
Charuru
We should stop talking about religion and faith in terms of good or evil.
Religion is merely institutionalized ignorance, completely understandable.
Outside of overwhelming evidence, believing what everyone else believes is
completely logical. Nobody ever got fired for using choosing Microsoft right?

All of us atheists that pride ourselves on our rational thought, probably 99%
of us would have been just as religious or superstitious if we were alive 500,
1000 ago.

On the other hand religion's claims on morality are just ridiculous, can't
believe anyone gives it credence.

------
getonit
Why morality doesn't need a god is a non-issue. But fear not - simply
demonstrate the existence of a god, and it will then be a valid question
worthy of discussion. That should be easy enough, right? Else why would you
believe it and expect to be taken seriously?

------
stats101
"God is the only objective force in the universe" <\- yet its mere existence
still has to be proven

Open your eyes.

------
stats101
God is the only objective force in the universe. Humans by nature are
subjective, giving into their whims and desire (most of the time wholly
contrary to expert advice on what's good for them and what's bad for them).

Take homosexuality for example... as recent as a few decades back, it was an
abhorrent crime, hated by society, hated by government. A few years later,
it's celebrated, with countless open air marches and festivals around the
world. God's position on this hasn't changed - peoples has!

Take dress code as another item.... the definition of 'modesty' holds a whole
different connotation almost year on year. What's acceptable in terms of women
dress wear, magazines, films, is slipping bit by bit, year on year. Again,
another human whim.

The harmful nature of swine has been studied and documented to the nth degree.
The bacteria it contains, and the susceptibility of the meat to transmit
viruses is well known within certain research communities (do google search).

"Religion alone has caused more suffering in history than any other idea, and
has lead to wars, deaths, torture, discrimination, intolerance, sexual
repression, sexist discrimination to women, and a slowdown for science,
culture and knowledge."

On the contrary. Human beings have killed people. Religion hasn't. All the 3
major religions are against innocent loss of life. The death toll in Iraq has
gone off the scale. The death toll in Afghanistan has reached into it's
hundreds of thousands. These are Atheist wars! In modern history, Atheism has
killed more people than centuries of religiously motivated killings.

Religion has brought, not only moral truth, but also has cultivated the soil
for humanity to be scientifically and technologically where it is at now. The
Islamic Golden Age (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age>) has
contributed an invaluable amount to almost every aspect of our existence today
(from universities, to contracts, to music...). What has atheist brought
really? than just ignorant and prejudice ideas?

~~~
drKarl
"God is the only objective force in the universe" <\- yet its mere existence
still has to be proven

"Take homosexuality for example... as recent as a few decades back, it was an
abhorrent crime, hated by society, hated by government." <\- and in ancient
greece it was normal and accepted

"Take dress code as another item" <\- Fashion in dressing has changed over the
course of the centuries

"The harmful nature of swine has been studied and documented to the nth
degree. The bacteria it contains, and the susceptibility of the meat to
transmit viruses is well known within certain research communities" <\- The
same could be said of other animals such as bovine and birds.

"On the contrary. Human beings have killed people." <\- But in the name of
religion! And not only in the name of the 3 major monotheistic religions, but
the monothoeistic religions happen to be less tolerant with other's beliefs.
There are many examples, the crusades, inquisition, witch hunts...

"The death toll in Iraq has gone off the scale. The death toll in Afghanistan
has reached into it's hundreds of thousands. These are Atheist wars!" <\-
Doesn't ex-president Bush Jr told the world that the bad ones where islamic
fanatic terrorists? He even wanted to call the war "Divine Justice" or
something alike.

"Religion has brought, not only moral truth" <\- again, that is very
debatable. Religion claims it has The Truth, yet every religion claims the
same, and their truths are different from each other.

"In modern history, Atheism has killed more people than centuries of
religiously motivated killings." <\- That is absolutely demagogic. Atheism
hasn't killed anyone. People kills people, and in modern wars is it is always
for economic reasons.

"The Islamic Golden Age has contributed an invaluable amount to almost every
aspect of our existence today" <\- That is exactly correct. And during the
Islamic Golden Age, muslims where not as fanatical as they are nowadays. On
the contrary, on that age, christians were as fanaticals as muslims ara
nowadays.

"What has atheist brought really?" <\- Freethinking, a neutral vision of
nature and the universe, curiosity and the ability to ask questions and look
for answers beyond "it is god's <change your deity name here> will". If it
were for religion, we will still think that earth is plain.

"than just ignorant and prejudice ideas?" <\- That is exactly what I would say
that religion has given to humanity.

~~~
Charuru
> _"The Islamic Golden Age has contributed an invaluable amount to almost
> every aspect of our existence today" <\- That is exactly correct. And during
> the Islamic Golden Age, muslims where not as fanatical as they are nowadays.
> On the contrary, on that age, christians were as fanaticals as muslims ara
> nowadays._

I understand your point, but I seriously doubt this is correct. This sort of
argument is not likely to impress anyone, least of all a religionists.

