

The Economics of the HDMI Cable Ripoff - mhb
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/06/the-mysterious-hdmi-cable-ripoff.html

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spolsky
The author doesn't mention the concept of anchoring.

A $40 HDMI cable sounds expensive.

But when you're buying a $400 bluray player, another $40 for the cable doesn't
sound so expensive, because you're mentally comparing the price to $400.

Anchoring is a well-known concept in pricing. Since retail stores are almost
always selling HDMI cables as add-ons, they can take advantage of a much
greater willingness to pay by customers who are anchored by the high-price blu
ray player they're buying. The online stores that sell cheap HDMI cables
(monoprice FTW!) sell ONLY cables and can't anchor.

PS I always prefer component cables to HDMI cables. You get the same quality
without the copy protection bullshit. There are too many reasons the HDCP DRM
crap sucks, for example, it is impossible for AV receivers to display on-
screen menus or even on-screen volume sliders so you have to adjust your
volume without seeing what you're doing.

~~~
silentOpen
HDMI is digital and component (with "RCA" connectors) is analog. Why do you
prefer analog to digital for video transmission? Unfortunately, yes, HDMI has
HDCP. I try to use DVI or mini-DVI where possible.

~~~
sho
_I try to use DVI or mini-DVI where possible._

Hear hear, in fact I refuse to buy anything that won't accept proper computer
inputs. Which reminds me - any TVs have DisplayPort yet?

~~~
whughes
DVI is easily connected to HDMI using a DVI-HDMI cable. I've had no problems
doing this with a computer and an HDTV at 1080p resolution.

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michael_dorfman
What's the incentive for a retailer to offer the cheap HDMI sales? When
deciding where to shop, people are influenced by the "sale price" on the Blu-
Ray player, not the cables-- and most Blu-Ray player purchasers are not going
to walk out of the store without a cable. So, might as well hook them for the
over-priced one.

~~~
JimmyL
Yeah - likewise, if I've already spent $400 on a player, the sales pitch
"you've made such a good investment in this piece of equipment, why ruin it
all with cheap cabling" seems to sell itself.

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TrevorJ
We must also consider the fact that big box stores rarely make good margins on
high-end purchases. It is the small things like cables and accessories where
they have high profit margins to make up for selling larger appliances at very
low margins.

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Sam_Odio
I normally would never pimp a product or site on HN. However I'm going to take
this chance to talke about RiteAV (<http://riteav.com>).

RiteAV is probably the BEST source I've ever found for cables and adapters.
Everything I've purchased has been of great quality and very inexpensive. I've
placed several orders and they were all shipped same day. What's better is
that shipping costs are super-cheap (they'll even ship via first class mail if
it makes sense). In my last order I got 2 cables and an adapter for $6 +
shipping ($6.50).

Don't take my word for it: google them. They seem to have amazing reviews
elsewhere: <http://www.resellerratings.com/store/RiteAV>

Note: I'm not affiliated with RiteAV outside of the purchases I've made and
they're not paying me for this. The only reason I'm writing this is because
they seem like good people.

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jmagar
Let's just start with the simple fact cable quality does matter when working
with HDMI. I'm not here to argue about the price of one manufacturer versus
another, or their relative quality and worth. But I will point out that "cheap
cables" and the expectation that for the same $9.99 you'd spend on a serial
cable you could get a reliable HDMI cable is somewhat laughable.

HDMI is really bad design, and due to its DVI legacy they've pushed the up
against the limits of what is possible. Right up against the limit.

1) it's twisted pair technology instead of coax 2) it's parallel instead of
serial 3) it's very fast (10.2 Gbps)

If you just spent money on a new 7.1 AVR, and a Deep Color Blu-ray player then
you'll be needing cables that have been manufactured and tested to a highest
HDMI 1.3 standard. Resistance, skin effect, impedance, capacitance, cross talk
and inductance all conspire to disrupt the data and since it's digital, you
will be left staring at a black screen or hearing pops and audio dropouts.
This kind of quality control is not cheap, and is much more than a simple
continuity check on each line within the bundle.

I've tested some really expensive HDMI cables and seen what is possible with
them. I've ignored the "Direction of Flow" arrows on some long lengths and had
them fail, reversed the cables and had it work. There is real engineering that
goes into these things, and that is what you are paying for.

So for short lengths (3-6') the cheapest HDMI cable might be good enough, and
you will probably be happy. But I'd still be looking for the HDMI 1.3 logo on
the package, at least then you can be sure it has been tested against the
upper ends of the spec.

~~~
Confusion
_I've ignored the "Direction of Flow" arrows on some long lengths and had them
fail, reversed the cables and had it work. There is real engineering that goes
into these things_

You're bullshitting us. At least, I hope you are, otherwise you are sadly
misguided. There is no way in hell you can design a cable in such a way that
it will pass signals in one direction, but not in the other.

 _Resistance, skin effect, impedance, capacitance, cross talk and inductance
all conspire to disrupt the data_

You're just repeating electrical engineering terms without understanding them.
Impedance is the combined effect of resistance, capacitance and inductance.
The skin effect is an effect that adds to the resistance.

They all don't 'disrupt' the data. In the simplest terms, the resistance
influences the amount of power required to transfer a signal, due to losses in
the cable. The capacitance influences the amount of time required to transfer
a signal, because it may be viewed as the resistance to signal _change_.
Inductance is the only one that may change the signal, but it only influences
AC signals, which, at most, act as the _carrier_ for a digital signal. It
doesn't change the digital signal.

The fact that Infiniband cables are cheaper than these kind of HDMI cables
should also be recognized as a large red neon sign screaming: you're being
scammed.

~~~
jodrellblank
_There is no way in hell you can design a cable in such a way that it will
pass signals in one direction, but not in the other._

Did someone just uninvent the diode?

~~~
Confusion
I was coming at the problem from a sane angle and meant that there was no way
in hell that you could design a cable in such a way _if you were simply trying
to design the best possible cable_.

If you are suggesting that Monster seperates each of the wires in its cables
into multiple parts and connects them with electronic components emulating a
diode (you couldn't just put a diode in; that would screw up the cable), then
yes, it could be done. It would be an insane way to actually let the
directional arrows make sense, but granted, when taken literally, my original
statement was wrong.

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yardie
I just bought an upscaling DVD player for my son because I was tired of wiping
down the PS3. The cheapest one came with DVD player, quick start guide, remote
and batteries. Cables?? you're gonna pay extra for that. Of course the
retailer had only the most expensive cables (it didn't matter, component,
composite, HDMI) in stock. And since I was going to tell my son he was going
to have to wait up to a week before he could watch his movies I felt compelled
to buy the heavily marked up cables in the store.

Fact is cables are the new print cartridges. I won't be surprised when CE
devices only come with a proprietary power cable.

~~~
pgebhard
Good thing they don't "run out". If you just had some extra, cheap HDMI cables
or component cables lying around, you'd have been set. I'll keep that in mind
as I buy some HDMI cables soon for my upcoming HDTV purchase.

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sho
From the comments:

 _I know, from personal experience (my dad has a setup), that on sufficiently
high end systems (tube amps, premium quality vinyl records, $5000 turntables),
the cables make a difference. Some of the cables are hand made, and have
markets of less than 1000 buyers. They really do sound different though._

Woohoo, expectation bias in action.

Back on topic, a neat trick is to go to your friendly low margin neighbourhood
computer store; they tend to have every cable you could possibly imagine for
$10 or less.

~~~
nuclear_eclipse
> a neat trick is to go to your friendly low margin neighbourhood computer
> store; they tend to have every cable you could possibly imagine for $10 or
> less.

Wow, I wish I had a friendly low margin computer store in my area. Other than
Best Buy and the recently-defunct CompUSA, the only computer stores around are
mom'n'pop stores that charge more markup on everything than NewEgg, MonoPrice,
and even Walmart...

~~~
sho
Ha, mine are mom'n'pop stores too, but they're Chinese in a fairly Chinese
area, with other computer shops around .. price sensitive market + good
competition = I am happy. I love that kind of shop actually; they act as these
little value-added distribution branches. Order heaps of the top 100 (or so)
products, add 5-10% to the wholesale price, then they walk out the door.

The bad side is that we actually don't have a big internet electronics
retailer here (Australia). A Newegg would probably be cheaper - I thought they
were very cheap? But they would have difficulty starting, since they'd rely on
volume to beat the small operators, but the small ones do a pretty good job
and can sell minus shipping .. wouldn't want to try to compete with them
unless I had _very_ deep pockets.

Seems I told a lie though, just looked it up and it's actually more like
AUD$15 (USD$12-13) for HDMI. Sorry : /

