
Japan approves first human-animal embryo experiments - headalgorithm
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02275-3
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La-ang
[In 2017, Nakauchi and his colleagues reported the injection of mouse iPS
cells into the embryo of a rat that was unable to produce a pancreas. The rat
formed a pancreas made entirely of mouse cells. Nakauchi and his team
transplanted that pancreas back into a mouse that had been engineered to have
diabetes, The rat-produced organ was able to control blood sugar levels,
effectively curing the mouse of diabetes1.] WOW :O

~~~
roywiggins
A good day for diabetic mice!

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ChuckMcM
Was it the hitch hikers guide that said, "As a result of their time on Earth,
mouse scientists had developed the means to cure all mouse diseases, allowing
their civilization to survive in perpetuity."

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asciimo
I hoped technology would reduce animal exploitation. It does in some areas,
like cell farming to create food without animals. And synthetic models for
pharmaceutical research. Maybe this branch of research can evolve to eliminate
animals as well.

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ganzuul
There will still exist a fascinating dichotomy, up until we can predict result
without either simulation or animal models. An ideal engineered organism would
be a delightfully weird homunculus, and a sufficiently advanced simulation
could be deemed to be a living creature too.

Perhaps it is best to make sure that lab technicians feel a great deal of
empathy for the animals they work with.

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asciimo
Have to be careful, though. Too much empathy and you'll quit your job.

~~~
ganzuul
I would hope instead that they refuse to do certain procedures. Then if
someone else gets asked to do the same procedure in hope of less empathy there
should be alarms going off.

The lab technicians will after all be the experts on the subject; not
academics on an ethics board.

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souldamnation
These damn ethics committees are just slowing down much needed progress. Let's
not pretend that DARPA and other black military scientific experimentation
sites around the world have, and are, operating under the ethical radar and
keeping their findings classified and to themselves and highly doubtful to the
betterment of mankind. Let's just call a spade a spade and loosen the
restrictions on the scientific community that actually operates with the
public good in mind.

~~~
Robelius
Let's move fast and break things, including our ethics.

Counties have done unethical experiments on humans before, and maybe they do
it now. Why should we hold ourselves to a standard, if other groups do not? I
couldn't possibly think of a reason why the scientific community would hold
themselves accountable, rather than think they know best and act as if they
were superior to the larger community they work to improve. I mean, that
mindset has never gone wrong.

Personally, I like seeing a community doing some attempt at self regulation.
Maybe it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

~~~
CamperBob2
_Let 's move fast and break things, including our ethics._

Why not? That's how we got vaccines, isn't it? (Stated completely without any
ironic intent.)

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puskavi
As usual, Japan is ahead of things. Maybe in not-so-distant future we'll see
human DNA modification. It's the only way towards, as devolution will dull us
otherwise with all these bad, useless habits too available.

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viach
I understand (and agree with) all these moral related questions and why so
many downvotes in this topic. What is interesting, when one nation develops
this tech and their people will live, say, 150 years, will these morals
survive in other countries?

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pgt
Like iPhone manufacturing, the West will buy the finished product before it
allows the experimentation under its roof.

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viach
Might be. But it is quite different from iPhone manufacturing. It actually
could more dangerous than nukes. West will just buy this you say, but why it
is not possible now to just buy several intercontinental ballistic missiles?
There are people with enough money and desire to buy this.

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umvi
> but why it is not possible now to just buy several intercontinental
> ballistic missiles?

It probably is. You'll have to buy them from North Korea in secret though.

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buboard
Good for mice i guess. Bad for rats.

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arcticbull
Excellent analysis.

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buboard
In my defense, it's not really my area.

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fjcp
When I heard Alex Jones on Joe Rogan saying that there was human-animal
experiments being made I thought he was exaggerating.

In my opinion this kind of research crosses some ethical lines that shouldn't
be crossed. If one considers an embryo as an independent life, what species
the embryo belongs to? Wouldn't be the ones in this experiment half humans
with human rights? After all, the scientist doesn't know all, and the cells he
put in could evolve to a chain reaction of the hybrid developing human
conscious.

Just my opinion tho, as I know nothing about genetics and biology.

~~~
Communitivity
I saw you had been downvoted and I upvoted you, despite disagreeing very
strongly with your opinion, because you stated your opinion without vitriol
and while I might disagree I'll still fight for your right to say it as long
you do so in a way that isn't hurtful.

I think the line of inquiry into replacement organs can be researched
ethically but the how of the research may cross ethical lines if not done
carefully. Given diseases we have, I think we need to do the research and find
an ethical way to make this kind of organ production happen, if we want to
extend human lifespan.

~~~
fjcp
I knew I would be, but its fine. Thank you for your words! I share the same
belief regarding freedom of speech.

About the research, I hope I am wrong and the advances that came out of it
help save lives and extend the human life. I just wish they take those ethical
questions in consideration too.

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carapace
It beats organlegging (which is a real thing now) but we should be able to
regrow our own organs and limbs.

Becker, "The Body Electric"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Body_Electric_(book)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Body_Electric_\(book\))

But then he died and most research dried up, but now there's Levin:
[https://ase.tufts.edu/biology/labs/levin/](https://ase.tufts.edu/biology/labs/levin/)

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sebringj
How does the human part affect cognition? A stem cell for example is before it
"decides" to be a specific cell right? If that is the case in terms of embryo
development, then how do they coax only specific cells in embryos to only
express themselves in parts of the body excluding the brain. Complicated but I
really am not understanding some basic principles here.

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HeadsUpHigh
Yes you are missing basic parts. There are certain genes that produce proteins
that then bind to other control areas of the DNA that affect how much other
genes are expressed. These last genes translate to proteins that make e.g. a
pancreatic cell what it is. But this is a tree of increased specialization on
which embryonic stem cells become e.g. blood stem cells which then specialize
to rbc, white platelet producers.

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rc_kas
Yeah America has all the moral debates about genetics and experiments with
embryos. But the bottom line is other countries are going to move forward no
matter what America does.

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bcrosby95
While I disagree with the US's stance, ignoring your morals because other
countries are doing something would be a race to the bottom.

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sampo
_> ignoring your morals_

If those morals say people should die instead of getting the organ transplants
they need, maybe we are better off ignoring such morals.

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dmonitor
The moral is that embryos deserve the same rights as people, so you’re really
just killing one person to save another

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ddingus
No it is not.

Viability matters here. I realize you see that differently. Realize others
will ALWAYS differ on this. ALWAYS.

Frankly, this will absolutely be done. There probably will be wars over it
too.

And it still will be done.

And then it will be done sans an embryo, using stems.

Right now, powerful, wealthy people are paying full attention. The one thing
they cannot buy will end up for sale. More time.

Buckle up. It is going to get super ugly.

~~~
diminoten
He's not saying the idea is accurate, he's simply stating the idea. No need to
argue unless you don't think he's representing the viewpoint accurately.

~~~
ddingus
I think it is accurate, and we all see that how we see it.

There is not a wrong, just grave differences, IMHO, unresolvable ones. At
least for a considerable time.

That was the intended point.

People are going to really struggle over this area of tech.

Not so much an argument as it is, look out. Incoming!

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notadoc
Isn't it highly likely this is already being done by various other nations
already in secret labs?

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valinsky
Alex Jones Heavy Breathing

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lewaldman
Why all comments are being down-voted?

(Personally... I think this tech is amazing and I can't wait for it to be
available worldwide!)

~~~
alexandercrohde
You mean the South Park references that add no contribution to this scientific
article? Or people broadcasting their moral opinions into the void?

I don't see any good comments downvoted.

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theincredulousk
Yeah for example the super-profound and constructive top comment that just
quotes the article and adds "WOW :O".

That's quality content, unlike a the South Park reference drawing a simile
between serious research and the (humorously) exaggerated potential disasters
of combining human DNA with other species.

Obviously the second was made by some common peasant lacking the intelligence
to engage with the audience here. The first, clearly being the work of an
intellectual powerhouse the likes of which we stand in awe of, has rightly
collected the praise and votes they deserve.

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not_a_cop75
Finally, Japan can make good on the real life creations from their anime
movies.

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flyingfences
_Ed...ward..._

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uhtred
Poor rats. Poor mice.

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theincredulousk
man-bear-pig origin story confirmed

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tasubotadas
The first thing that came to my mind was "Edward...".

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gridlockd
Yes, it's pretty crazy how well this already works.

A toast to the manpig that shall grow my future replacement liver!

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thebeefytaco
We must all stop manbearpig.

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dang
Not here, please.

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htor
grow human organs inside rats and? how does that work? i don't understand.
meanwhile we are entering the sixt mass extinction event caused by a massive
climate change. what good is this technology when you have failing crops,
extreme weather, no electricity and mass immigration at your doorstep?

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algorias
Presumably, the eventual goal is to grow full-sized organs inside some larger
animal. Then the organ can be harvested and transplanted to a human who needs
it. Per my understanding, medicine does a lot of work with rats because
they're cheap and easy to work with, so any new technology of this type would
be tried on rats first.

By the way, my neutral explanation above doesn't mean that I approve of doing
such things. Honestly, I'm quite torn about the issue.

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noir_lord
I'm not remotely torn about it, taken to the finish, it's a human organ with
my dna grown in a pig and then transplanted into me.

We already eat bacon and use large mammal heart valves in surgery.

I mean we wear the skin of cows, grease things with their rendered fat and use
them for glue.

This seems like a strange point to be torn on.

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mrfusion
Remember that a bio ethicist has years of education on smart ways to block
stuff like this.

If they didn’t block this stuff they wouldn’t have a job.

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ETHisso2017
I worry about allowing Japan, a country that has refused to fully own up to
the biomedical atrocities it committed with Unit 731, to lead the way on these
kinds of experiments. I would feel much more comfortable if there was
international ethical oversight.

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vorpalhex
1945 was a long time ago and a very different Japan... We don't still force
Germany to have caps on its army.

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sampo
_> We don't still force Germany to have caps on its army._

You pacified the German psyche so thoroughly that the Germans do it themselves
now.

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checktheorder
It wasn't pacification. It was a nation collectively coming to terms with
their brutal past and taking to heart the phrase "never again". If "not
bombing non-knee-bending nations on a whim" equals "pacified" in your mind,
then I hope you never hold a position of power in any government.

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danbolt
I'd imagine Japan's attitudes have changed the same, as well.

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checktheorder
I'd be interested in knowing if that's true, and if so, to what extent. My
knowledge of Japanese culture - especially modern prevailing attitudes towards
the Japanese government's actions in the second world war - is very limited.
I'm not qualified to speak to that.

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nojap
Historical revisionism is alarmingly prevailing in Japan, and I see Japan is
slowly turning into nationalism and militarism.

