
Not Having A Real Job - mkrecny
http://edu.mkrecny.com/thoughts/not-having-a-real-job
======
phillmv
Let me get this straight.

Your solution to feeling socially isolated, having no fulfilling hobbies
outside of work, and your apparent unhappiness, despite your success, is to
_open a co-working space_?

Folks, this is as clear as an indictment of the culture as you get.

I work out of a co-working space. They're great. I am slowly working my way up
the informal foosball rankings. And I'm not particularly good at living life,
but we're still working at the financial stability part.

There is more to life than work, even if you were blessed with huge natural
reservoirs of motivation. Learn to paint. Learn to cook. Learn another
language. Write fiction, investigate some non-fiction, learn how to take
beautiful photographs (pro-tip: your iPhone is an amazing camera), READ BOOKS,
start playing a team sport in an adult rec league, go camping, if you can
afford it GO TRAVELLING, oh my god you have the money and total flex but you
won't go travelling?, VOLUNTEER at the homeless shelter, at the library, at
the office of a political cause you believe in, INTERACT WITH OTHER HUMAN
BEINGS [in a setting outside of "lol tech startups" once in a while].

~~~
sown
Why does everyone say 'travel' or 'volunteer' when these questions get asked?

I'm not being rhetorical or sarcastic. I genuinely don't know. I can only
assume that it's something I'm missing and everyone else just 'gets' without
having to say it outloud (this has happened) or ... something else?

I've done both and I can't say I really cared for travelling since it's such a
hassle. As for volunteering, which I've done, it feels exactly like work --
except even less people wanted to talk than before. Do people who give this
advice actually go volunteer?

> INTERACT WITH OTHER HUMAN BEINGS

Yelling at people doesn't help. It kind of feels like people are telling a
person to just cheer up if they're clinically depressed.

I think that the problems here, and their solutions, are a lot more
complicated than anyone gives them credit for.

~~~
peterwwillis
Volunteering and traveling both put you in a position you are not normally in.
They will give you new ways to look at things, from how you might be acting as
a customer (volunteering) to how much work goes on behind the scenes
(volunteering) and how different people live, work, and play (travel). It's
mind-expansion. It's fun. It's rewarding. You make new friends. You find new
things to love. Your perceptions change. You become a different person.

Of course, you can also volunteer and travel and get absolutely nothing out of
it. Depends.

~~~
sown
> Volunteering and traveling both put you in a position you are not normally
> in.

Volunteering is work. Sometimes hard work, back breaking even. I don't do it
for fun, and certainly not the pay. I did it a few times to try to see what it
is people get from it, and while it was nice to help people in need, I don't
see it as you listed. I'll probably do it again soon because someone has to do
the work.

> It's mind-expansion. It's fun. It's rewarding. You make new friends. You
> find new things to love. Your perceptions change. You become a different
> person.

I don't see it as, "Man, you blew my mind" type expansion (what ever that
means). In fact, a lot of what you just said could be applied to just plain
work.

Again, either people are getting something from it that I don't 'get' without
having someone enunciate exactly what it is or people who give this advice
don't really volunteer, or _something_ that needs explaining to me.

~~~
Amadou
I don't think there is anything more to it. I think it is a matter of
personality or perhaps something along the lines of "neural wiring."

I feel pretty much the same as you do - for stuff like this the juice just
isn't worth the squeeze. I think that for some people the juice just tastes
better - maybe they have "taste buds" that I lack or maybe I have a much
better imagination such that the difference between the actual "juice" and
just thinking about the juice is much smaller. FWIW, I also get no pleasure
out of physical activity, no runner's high and after working with a physical
trainer 4 days a week for two years getting into shape and dropping 75lbs to a
normal weight I felt no better than I did when I was fat - the only difference
that was perceptible to me was that my old clothes were too loose. Maybe
that's all related, maybe not.

~~~
circlefavshape
fwiw I never got any pleasure out of physical training either - lifting
weights, running, etc is just pure tedium for me.

I do, however, get a surprising emotional boost from physical _work_. Axe,
shovel, sledgehammer, wheelbarrow. I don't so it all that regularly, and the
effects would no doubt wear off pretty damn fast if it was my day job, but
when I do it invariably puts a smile on my face

------
Articulate
I quit using terms like "real job" and "real world" a long time ago (back when
I was working as a deckhand on a ship). I don't like that it implies that you
are doing something less- that other people are more legitimate because they
are on the beaten path. Now I use the term "regular job" and "regular world".
On another note, some people thrive in the solo-work arrangement. My
creativity has soared since I quit having senseless meetings, or bureaucratic
red tape to get through. Good that you recognized that you don't naturally
build social networks- As my business has grown it forced me out to meet so
many people that now I have reserved entire days to be back in my private
office working alone- hoping I can tap into the creativity that comes from
solitude.

~~~
jholman
Great quote from the book 'Net Magic', by Lee Siegel:

    
    
        “I’m writing a book on magic,” I explain, and I’m asked, “Real
        magic?” By real magic people mean miracles, thaumaturgical acts,
        and supernatural powers.  “No,” I answer: “Conjuring tricks, not
        real magic.”  Real magic, in other words, refers to the magic
        that is not real, while the magic that is real, that can
        actually be done, is not real magic.
    

The parallel is limited, of course, because you _can_ be employed in a "real
job" / "regular job". But the point is, when people say "real job" they don't
mean that other jobs are not real things, they mean that they don't fully have
the property of _job-ness_. And I'd argue that they're right, and that's
exactly why many people don't want to have a "real job". Some people want a
job that has only SOME of the properties of job-ness.

(some of the properties of "job-ness": pays enough to raise a family, has
reasonable security, has the thing they call "benefits", telegraphs
information about you to people who want to make a snap judgement about you
(including e.g. your extended family), keeps you busy from 8am to 6pm, gives
you a defined social role and a defined social context)

------
chasing
So you're working from home and it's making you feel crappy because you're not
socializing, you're working bizarre hours, and you're not capable of picking
up non-work-related hobbies?

Why jump into immediately advertising your co-working space? Feels like a
weird bait-and-switch. Why not stick out the work-from-home thing for a bit
and actually see if you can solve some of these problems? Because, yes, if you
can then you'll have a nicely flexible life. Hell, start with working only
during normal business hours. Do things with buddies in the evenings. Join a
sports league. Then see how you feel.

Right now, this reads a bit like: "I tried using chopsticks instead of a fork
for the first time, and after poking myself in the eye a dozen times, I
decided chopsticks aren't for me and that I should instead open a fork
factory."

Also: I work from home. I am an independent developer. It's a "real job." Can
we please put to rest this stupid idea that freelancing isn't "real?" It's
very real.

~~~
mansigandhi
I completely agree. This felt like such a bait-and-switch post.

And as someone who works from home - I have as much a social life as earlier
(in a "real" job).

------
JackFr
This really struck the perfect HN balance between arrogance and whining with a
sales pitch thrown in. If I were writing an HNbot this post is what I would
aspire to.

------
whichdan
I telecommute, and I can definitely relate to most of this post. There's
something really refreshing about being able to step out at 1pm, run for an
hour, hit a bar for lunch, meander back home, and settle back into coding
again. It feels great, but especially in the winter months, the lack of daily
social interaction catches up with you really quickly.

------
FD3SA
I cannot praise this enough. The greatest achievements in the world have come
from a gathering of bright and passionate people, discussing and vetting their
ideas together.

As deep thinkers, we tend to seek isolation to focus the entirety of our
mental faculty on a particular problem. In this quest to make efficient use of
our biological computing device, we forget that we are indeed humans forged
through evolutionary processes, and that our very sanity depends on a
positively reinforcing social foundation.

The most difficult task is finding like minded individuals, who would
spontaneously coalesce as if by a force of nature but are held apart due to
spatial or temporal separation. Once this initial barrier is overcome, such
minds become inseparable and often go on to do great things. History is abound
with examples such as Godel and Einstein, whose friendship began in the most
extraordinary of circumstances but ended up changing our very understanding of
the universe.

So good luck, and god speed!

~~~
thoughtcriminal
_The greatest achievements in the world have come from a gathering of bright
and passionate people, discussing and vetting their ideas together._

Nonsense. Any equal number of "greatest" achievements have come from a
individuals working persistently in solitude, in humble settings.

~~~
thirdtruck
Each of which only only mattered to the world at large because many others
proceeded to spread and implement those achievements.

~~~
obviouslygreen
Sure... now we're debating on what proportion of an undefined set conforms to
whose preconceptions. This is intelligent.

We could avoid all of this if people would just learn to make their points
without also having to jump to outrageous and/or totally unsubstantiated
conclusions in addition to just stating what would otherwise be a perfectly
valid _opinion_.

------
virtualwhys
Haven't had a real job in 10 years, luckily.

Instead of going to the gym, I grab my board and surf for an hour or 2,
waves/wind permitting.

Travel and code, not too shabby. Make far less $$ than I would in a 9-5 (+
commute/traffic) office setting, but quality of life is much better. I feel
like absolute garbage without getting out in nature, dropping the screens for
awhile.

YMMV of course, some people are at home in the hustle and bustle of the big
shi$$y -- can only handle that for a few weeks max before I get restless for
the unknown.

~~~
oftenwrong
What kind of work do you do?

~~~
virtualwhys
Freelance web dev, JVM/Scala.

~~~
mtrimpe
How do you find Enterprisey clients that let you work remotely?

Is it also word of mouth like most regular enterprise work or do you make
yourself heard in some specific communities?

~~~
virtualwhys
"How do you find Enterprisey clients that let you work remotely?" Good
question ;-)

All word of mouth -- projects run $25K on the high end. I own a couple of
application servers that I run in colo stateside, and choose the stack for the
client accordingly; tends to be Scala/Slick/Play of late, smitten with Scala.

Side note: I did run into a fellow surfer/coder in Hawaii a couple of winters
ago doing the travel/work thing. He made around $200K/year doing C#/SQL Server
work for a big Atlanta based company. As long as he made the weekly conference
call (4AM Hawaii time) they had no problem with him telecommuting -- France is
nice like that, got a 6 hour delay before start of business day EST ;-)

------
wolfowitz
Am I the only one who thinks this is a load whiny written pseudo viral
advertising for that guys 'oh so different' co working space?

I mean I pretty much resonated with all of this right until the last
paragraph, where it suddenly turns into some catchy written ad for _Microhaus
- an experimental incubator for people who dream bigger than the rest_

------
ChuckMcM
I'm going to be a bit contrarian here it seems and say "good for you!"

There are a number of quasi-social-business get organizations which exist for
the exact same reasons you outlined in your post. That old chestnut the
Chamber of Commerce has been a social get together for small business owners
forever where they could get together and share issues and influence the
politicians to make a more business friendly environment.

What you have started, could potentially evolve into the technology equivalent
of such organizations. Getting together with other entrepreneurs to talk about
shared issues and ideas, challenges and various technologies, etc. All while
working at your own independent businesses but largely in a similar 'space'
(the Internet). There is tremendous efficiency to be gained there, an leverage
in making changes.

~~~
sixdimensional
I have been thinking lately that the Chamber of Commerce in most cities should
be evolving into what you are describing. They could provide co-working space,
events, support, advisors, etc - they could be these mini-incubators and bring
new businesses into their respective areas. In my dreams I see many small
"silicon valleys" (or better put, centers for innovation and incubation) all
over the US.

I know the ones around where I live certainly don't do this enough, although
they do try to help connect businesses in the community, and they do have some
free presentations that are nice.

------
yesimahuman
Running a company has been one of the most lonely things I've ever done. I
think it's one of the hardest parts of running a company. It's no wonder
founders try to form social groups amongst themselves.

I started a weekly coffee meetup in Madison, WI which has been great for
reducing some of that loneliness. We also hired more people which has really
helped as well!

Best of luck with Microhaus!

------
conductr
I can relate to your feelings of solitude. I had similar difficulties coping
with self-employment when my business was basically on autopilot. The fact is,
just because I was able to quit my job everyone else still works M-F and
finding ways to stay stimulated becomes a challenge.

My solution was to just get another job. I work a corporate job now, which is
weird because I too had grand thoughts of the Tim Ferris lifestyle. It is nice
to know that I do this job as a way to pass the time and remain intellectually
challenged. I've already turned down a few promotions because I just don't
want the responsibly. Also, if things change or my boss is a prick I have no
problems just walking out and never looking back. He knows this and it has
turned out to be a great manager/employee relationship because of it.

~~~
sixdimensional
Genuine question - was your business (on "autopilot") successful enough to
live off of, permanently?

It seems to me if you're "free" from the need to work (i.e. paying the bills),
you then get to choose what to do with yourself. It sounds like you chose to
keep working a "job". Which is cool - you chose it.

It seems to me that the freedom we seek is being able to choose and not be
tied permanently into any situation (especially a bad one) by choice.

~~~
conductr
Yes, couldn't agree more. Being in control of how I spend my time is the key
to being free. And yes, you're also right in the fact I have accumulated
enough cash that I never have to work again, if I don't want to.

That brings up another side to this conversation about success, I hate talking
about money. It's embarrassing when you're a 30 y/o with $1#M and trying to
maintain a modest life (I'm not flashy but I'm no coupon clipper either). For
the most part, I surround myself with (upper?)middle-class people with student
loans, mortgages, credit card debt, and maybe some young children. So when a
friend finds out I am a millionaire (usually another friend tells them, right
in front of me), they get this weird look on their face* - and I have no idea
how to react. So, I usually just say "yes, it's true" and try to change the
conversation.

If I could change one thing, I would have kept my success a complete secret.
As it occurs, it's exciting and you want to share and celebrate your successes
("drinks on me!"). Unfortunately, the long-term consequence is other people
tend to feel this is public information and that sucks.

* It's something in their eyes, almost everyone does it and it reminds me of gollum and the way he looks at "his precious." Like, as if by instinct, the first thought in their mind is "how do I get my hands on that money?"

------
seivan
Since I started making my own product and freelancing, I've increased my OSS
contribution by a lot. I got eleven eleven days streaking on Github and the
contribution graph looks heavy since I quit - and I have a hard time giving it
up.

The last two months, I've done four different libraries for iOS that are used
by other people as well as bugfixes, new features and readme updates for other
libraries that I use.

All of this, because I can pick what hours I do client work and I don't spend
two hours a day traveling to & from an office.

Job security is fake. Especially pre-profit places.

------
ziko
Best HN post since I've joined. I was in a very similar situation not so long
ago. I know a few others as well.

Last month, I watched a lot of snooker as there was a World Championship in
Sheffield. Ronnie O'Sullivan [who later won the cup] said something on that
same matter. You have a fairly successful life. You have someone who is very
close to you. You are good at something. Yet you lack one very important
ingredient to achieve total happiness. I don't know what is the word for that
ingredient.

Basically, you need to wake up in the morning, (briefly) commute and work from
there. Working from home is a great thing but not for everyone. You need an
office. You need something away from your flat to work at. You need that
commute even if it's just staring at the nature and greeting the doorman or
mailman. That's how it works for us (people who have this same problem).

I applaud microha.us. It's a great idea and it crossed my mind to do something
similar in the UK.

------
aashaykumar92
It's a great post, but I was a bit confused by the purpose of Mircrohaus and
ventured on to the website. Unfortunately, I'm still a bit confused. Not
confused by what it is, but by what the purpose is? I mean, why would people
be attracted to this over other incubators? The application process, although
seemingly informal, stil exists so I guess what I'm looking for is a sort-of
pitch about Microhaus.

~~~
mkrecny
"why would people be attracted to this over other incubators"

It's focused on developing you -as a person- rather than a product. Microhaus
doesn't take equity in whatever you're working on.

~~~
w1ntermute
Then what does Microhaus get in return? Basically, how are you planning on
keeping this thing afloat?

------
DoubleMalt
Can I fork microha.us on github?

No seriously, I am currently thinking about renting office space, and this
seems to be a great idea so I will think about using it for a microha.us
session at the beginning.

------
hkmurakami
Doing things like hosting Wednesday board game nights, weekend hikes, and
Sunday brunches have kept me "sane" in this regard. They're all great
activities to have conversations.

------
slashedzero
This has to be the oddest and most ridiculous attempt I've seen to form a
social life.

The comments above have advised to go after interests, and whatnot. Do that,
but also seek out people you already know and start doing real things with
them. Push the boundaries, get to know what they really like doing with their
time, form a network.

Also, "real jobs" are for suckers who aren't passionate enough to follow their
interests.

~~~
mcguire
_"This has to be the oddest and most ridiculous attempt I've seen to form a
social life."_

It's just an advertisement for microha.us.

------
Gepsens
Isn't the fundamental problem that you spent 24/7 coding rather than "not
having a real job" ?

------
Aardwolf
Off topic, sorry, but just a question in general about this type of link on
HN:

Why is the font on that page so big?

Isn't it better of everyone consistently uses the same font size for content,
rather than some pages using a big font for articles while others use a small
font? In the past these "large font" pages did not really exist, it's a recent
phenomenon...

~~~
estebank
In the past, when? In the past, screen resolution was lower on screens roughly
the same size as we use now.

I find it weird how rarely people (including myself) modify the zoom level of
the webpages they visit, unless they have vision problems, or are using a
phone/tablet.

Erring on the side of caution, too big a font is better than too small a font.

The default font size for `p` is 16px, and it can be thought of the ideal size
for text[1] on the browser. People will argue for bigger or smaller fonts[2],
but I think that I see more people complaining about small fonts than big
fonts, and with new higher resolution displays that have inconsistent ways of
displaying pages across devices (is 1px a physical pixel? It isn't supposed to
be, but most of the time it is, so front end designers assume they are, but
the display size doesn't change... everybody uses a 1200x900 screen, right?),
just make it readable on small high resolution displays.

Having said that, a much bigger problem than small/big fonts is low contrast
font color. If people using zoom is uncommon, people using personalised style
sheets are unicorns.

[1]: [http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/10/07/16-pixels-body-
co...](http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/10/07/16-pixels-body-copy-
anything-less-costly-mistake/) [2]:
[http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/211/is-there-an-
optima...](http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/211/is-there-an-optimal-font-
size)

------
xradionut
I'm not identifying with this at all. I have strong passions outside the
industry. Tasks more meanful than dealing with CRUD, servers and web
applications. Hobbies/past-times that given the time and money to pursue would
become my new fun "job", contribute more to society and connect with others
daily.

------
fleaflicker
I like his idea for a co-working space but ultimately it will not bring the
fulfillment he needs.

Your work is not your life. It's difficult to realize this when you're young
and hacking seems like the greatest and most important thing in the world. As
you get older, you gain perspective.

------
ckurdziel
There's a huge amount of creativity that comes from solitude - I've often felt
that the biggest issue for me with having a "real job" is the fact that I
can't carve out enough time to be truly alone with my thoughts. The grass is
always greener... :)

~~~
psionski
I was JUST starting to think "Oh, God... I'm reaching the end of the comments
and no one has suggested to read Nietzsche and enjoy your solitude, not a
single person!"

Thank you, sir, for representing the underrepresented!

------
arcosdev
I need to get out of this industry

------
sghill
Great post. Thank you for sharing this.

> Surely, I would fill my days with an eclectic mix of hobbies and spontaneous
> travel, funding the whole thing with the ultimate passive income stream.

Was this the original goal for not having a 'real' job?

> But for some reason I can't do that. I'm not good at using my free time for
> hobbies. I typically spend it thinking about work, or prototyping the 'next
> thing'.

This part was most attention-grabbing for me. Did you have many hobbies before
you became so deeply involved in tech?

I like to think I'd be outside playing golf a few times a week, but that's
something I used to do before getting a tech job in a city.

------
3pt14159
mkrecny, forget about the haters, I think it's cool. At the end of the day
we're just communicating on HN with abstractions based on less than a minute
of thinking. A month with six cool people sounds like a blast.

------
r0s
Coming in from the other direction: I have no problem with the social
networking, and I've spent years working part-time or at unconventional jobs
just to have free time. I'm good at the lone gun lifestyle, maybe too good.
Now with many "interesting" but unprofitable web projects... still trying to
get on that gravy train.

So I bounce from school to more serious work trying to build real development
skills. Hopefully I can bring some product to market, or make something.
That's the hard part for me.

------
gdonelli
For some people having a life is harder than having a job. For some other
people having a job is harder than having a life. Not sure who is more lucky
between the two groups.

------
xsace
For a moment I thought I was reading a description of my life.

~~~
micahroberson
Same thoughts here! I'm not sure starting my own incubator would fill the
void, but I can see how joining something like Microha.us might be nice.
Anybody know of anything along the same lines in SF?

------
orangethirty
What sort of paperwork do participants have to sign in order to join this
"incubator"?

------
question-all
MUST WORK 24/7. ALL WORK AND NO PLAY... we all know how the movie ends.

------
goloxc
this is pretty sweet

------
michaelochurch
The social life that comes with a typical office job is a false security. Your
boss can take it away at any time. Never get so beholden to one person. You
need to start going to Meetups, hanging out with different sorts of people,
etc.

After you leave, you're lucky if you're in touch with one or two of your
former co-workers. If your boss is sour about you leaving, or if he fires you
in a piss-fit, he'll actually turn a lot of people against you.

It sounds like you're already coming to the right path. Generating a social
life without an office context is harder, but it's a valuable skill because
almost everyone successful has active out-of-office ties.

~~~
philbarr
I think this depends purely on the type of people who work at your job. I now
work at home and have done for 2 years, but still meet up with colleagues from
my previous job occasionally, and they still talk to me and we discuss
life/software/beer etc.

The company I work for now has meetups 2-3 times a year, and whilst the people
are generally nice enough, I wouldn't really consider keeping in touch if I
left. I doubt they would bother either.

I also have a group of friends from my childhood around and we hang out alot.
I consider this extremely important and make specific efforts to organise
activities and nights out so we don't lose touch. People really don't put
enough effort into friendships to stay in touch. They often treat friends as
disposable when it comes to their careers which is sad.

Friends > cash, every time.

