
Nutraloaf - batemanesque
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutraloaf
======
kitcar
Soylent is not a new concept - in hospitals it is a quite common need to
provide patients with most / all their nutritional needs in liquid form. Off
the top of my head, famous brands in the field of "meal replacements in liquid
or powdered form" are Abbott Ensure ( [http://ensure.com/products/ensure-
powder](http://ensure.com/products/ensure-powder) ) and Nestle's Boost - (
[http://www.boost.com/healthcare-
professionals](http://www.boost.com/healthcare-professionals) ).

~~~
asdasf
Those are more expensive though, not less.

~~~
DanBC
They're made by people who know what they're doing, in clean factories, with
quality ingredients.

I'm not surprised that products created by people who don't know what they're
doing, in a kitchen, using god knows what ingredients, mixed in unsuitable
ways, to be cheaper.

~~~
asdasf
Soylent is made by people who know what they're doing, in clean factories,
with quality ingredients. You seem to have a really deep emotional investment
in strawmanning soylent, why is that?

~~~
DanBC
Where has all the product they've shipped so far been made, and by who?

~~~
asdasf
They haven't shipped any product. Once again we have people spewing absolute
nonsense pulled seemingly from nowhere. It is great that you hate soylent so
much, but if you want to criticize it, take 15 minutes to at least do a quick
google search and read a tiny bit about it.

~~~
DanBC
Two replies to my comment - one saying they haven't shipped anything, and
another saying they have shipped something.

The reason I dislike Soylent so much is that it is a scam, advertised using
dubious (and possibly illegal) claims.

Plenty of people were interested in it as an experiment - see the interest
after his initial blog post. I thought it was a stupid idea then, but at least
they weren't claiming it to be anything it wasn't.

They could have released it as an experimental product and been fine.

But they didn't. They chose to make a bunch of claims that have no basis in
fact.

~~~
asdasf
Both replies say they haven't shipped anything. Seems odd for someone who gets
intensely bitter over someone making a successful business to hang around on
HN.

~~~
DanBC
> Seems odd for someone who gets intensely bitter over someone making a
> successful business to hang around on HN.

Plenty of people on HN dislike scams. Soylent is marketed in a dishonest,
scammy, way.

First, the minor dishonesties:

> _Suppose we had a default meal that was the nutritional equivalent of water:
> cheap, healthy, convenient and ubiquitous._

Soylent tries to say it's something new; that this product doesn't exist.
That's just not true.

> _Soylent will be personalized for different body types and customizable
> based on individual goals._

This is the most interesting part of the Soylent claim. If they could make
access to testing easier and cheaper they'd have a useful product.

> _For anyone who struggles with allergies, heartburn, acid reflux or
> digestion, has trouble controlling weight or cholesterol, or simply doesn 't
> have the means to eat well, soylent is for you._

They had to change the main source of protein because many people are lactose
intolerant. Despite the disclaimer later on in the page this paragraph is
making clear medical claims. They have no evidence to support those claims.
They also have no need to make those claims! People would have bought Soylent
if those claims were not there.

> _Soylent [...] puts you in excellent health,

Another dubious unsubstantiated medical claim.

> _and vastly reduces your environmental impact by eliminating much of the
> waste and harm coming from agriculture, livestock, and food-related trash.*

This is an important point. But, like most of the Soylent stuff, they make the
claim but have no evidence to support it. I can't find any kind of ecological
assessment on any of the various Soylent blogs and websites.

> _50% of the food produced globally is wasted, and food makes for the largest
> component of municipal garbage. If not for this waste there would be plenty
> of food to adequately nourish everyone alive._

Food waste is not the reason for global malnutrition.

> _1 in 7 people globally are malnourished, and 1 in 3 in the developing world
> suffer from deficiency. Countless others are living hand-to-mouth,
> subsistence farming, hindering economic development. Even in the developed
> world, agriculture is the most dangerous industry to work in by occupational
> injuries and illnesses, and obesity is on the rise._

This is laughably ignorant. i) Soylent is very expensive when compared to the
existing FRPs and FSPs used by WFP and UNICEF. (20% of the world lives on less
than $1.25 per day) ii) Soylent needs clean water. About one billion people
don't have access to clean water. Soylent make no mention of this, even though
water is a crucial ingredient of the product. iii) Soylent appears to do
nothing to increase local independence and resilience. How does Soylent help
local farmers?

> By taking years to spoil,

I really need to see how they've tested that. I can't see how it's true.
Especially in the context of food aid, where ideal storage conditions may not
be available. Perhaps they mean "sealed packs last six months in less-than-
ideal conditions" \- that's a fine claim to make (if true), they don't need
the untested exaggeration.

> dramatically reducing cost, and easing transportation and storage, soylent
> could have a dramatic effect on hunger and malnutrition.

Soylent is considerably more expensive than the products being used by WFP and
UNICEF. I guess transportation and storage are similar.

> _Proceeds from the purchase of soylent enable us to work with aid partners
> and reduce hunger and environmental impact both in the United States and the
> developing world._

This is great. I wish more companies would do it. Soylent don't mention who
they're going to be working with. I'd have thought that with the $800,000
they've raised they would have made a few initial donations. Perhaps they're
researching who to give some money to? WaterAid would be one choice. WFP would
be another.

> _Imagine everyone having a customized,_

So far, two options. i) Male. ii) Female. It's a great idea - what do they
mean by it? Do they know what they mean?

Then there are a bunch of user testimonials and quotes from the press.

They actually do a reasonable job of the risks and challenges section, better
than many other crowd-funders do. They don't mention the risk of people
becoming ill after using Soylent.

> _there is much evidence that is considerably healthier than a typical diet._

They don't define a typical diet. There is not any evidence that Soylent is
considerably healthier than any diet, because there's no evidence for Soylent
at all yet.

------
DanBC
There are many single sources of nutrition that are cheaper than Soylent.

Have a look at the WFP information here
([https://www.wfp.org/nutrition/special-nutritional-
products](https://www.wfp.org/nutrition/special-nutritional-products)) and
here
([http://documents.wfp.org/stellent/groups/public/documents/co...](http://documents.wfp.org/stellent/groups/public/documents/communications/wfp255508.pdf))

And the manufacturer page for some of these products here
([http://www.dsm.com/corporate/home.html](http://www.dsm.com/corporate/home.html))

This report from IRIN shows the extreme need to lower costs with these foods -
they're aiming at $4 per kg. ([http://www.irinnews.org/report/83124/malawi-
cheaper-recipe-f...](http://www.irinnews.org/report/83124/malawi-cheaper-
recipe-for-treating-hungry-children))

~~~
freejack
With apologies to the original...

"You tell everybody. Listen to me. Hatcher. You've gotta tell 'em! SOYLENT IS
MARKETING SPIN! We gotta stop them! Somehow! Listen! Listen to me… PLEASE!!!"

I'm not judging and I wish the creators well - there's just not a lot of real
new thinking in Soylent - most of its promise is just pure marketing, like
most products I suppose ;-)

~~~
DanBC
It is remarkably effective marketing. We've been able to walk into any
drugstore and buy equivalent products for many years, so for Soylent to
generate the buzz they have is amazing.

It's certainly a good thing to put on their resume.

------
jacques_chester
Here's a cheap alternative from an actual dietian:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/1jvsie/the_man_w...](http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/1jvsie/the_man_who_thinks_he_never_has_to_eat_again_is/cbj3120)

Spoiler: he doesn't think highly of either Soylent or its creator.

~~~
kirualex
I don't think it's actually a safer alternative to base your diet on a reddit
comment. Just saying.

~~~
jacques_chester
... as opposed to a random blog post?

~~~
kirualex
I don't think it can be considered as random once a whole million dollar
compaign was launched around it (compared to a reddit comment I mean, whatever
is written still means nothing till you have a product). And I kind of find
Rhinehart post a little more detailed :
[http://robrhinehart.com/?p=424](http://robrhinehart.com/?p=424)

~~~
jacques_chester
> _I don 't think it can be considered as random once a whole million dollar
> compaign was launched around it._

This is an argument for relying on existing products, which have development
budgets in the tens of millions, decades of research and experience and dozens
of dietitians and scientists working on perfecting them.

------
wingerlang
Slightly off topic. On the soylent funding-website it says you can 'buy' one
weeks worth of soylent for $65, that's $260 for a month. Is this not an
insanely high cost for a months worth of food? When I was living by myself I
spend waaay less than this (although I was in Sweden if that matters)

Or am I missing something.

~~~
Retric
I spend about 700-1000$ on food a month because I don't like to cook or eat
low quality food. If I swapped to a meal replacement a few days a week I would
save quite a bit even at those prices.

IMO, There may be a lot of ready to eat foods out there from soup to frozen
food etc, but if you actually consider how much salt and preservatives are in
most of them there really not healthy. Existing meal replacement shakes etc
are heather, but tend to be focused on dieters vs direct meal replacement. So,
IMO there is plenty of room for Soylent, but I fear there going to get the
taste or nutrition wrong as it's a vary hard problem.

~~~
rangibaby
What do you eat that costs that much? I spend ~¥25,000 ($250) a month on food
for two people (not including eating out once a week or so) and that's making
no special attempt to save money on food. We eat a lot of fresh veges, fish
and meat.

~~~
dagw
Given that you eat out only once a week and buy lots of fresh veg and fish I
take it you like to cook, which is exactly what the original poster claimed he
wanted to avoid. How much do you think it would cost you to eat as well as you
do now, but with almost all meals eaten at restaurants? I imagine that $1000 a
month isn't too unreasonable.

------
dpapathanasiou
Soylent is amusing, but it ignores the fact that people take pleasure from
eating food, a payoff which is hard-wired in our brains.

No supplement, whatever its nutritional value, is going to be able to fill
that need.

~~~
clavalle
The creator of Soylent addresses this. He says he now treats eating 'real
food' like he does drinking alcohol -- an enhancement for social activity.

I am curious to try Soylent or something like it just for that 'Oh, this is
unusual! What a pleasure!' kind of effect when eating regular food.

~~~
jacques_chester
Another way to achieve this is to try different foods.

You might also be interested in reading about "Mindfulness-Based Eating". It
seems a bit woo-y to me but psych friends of my acquaintance say it shows
promise.

~~~
clavalle
I am lucky enough to live in a city with a large variety of food both from
grocery stores and restaurants and I take advantage of that, perhaps too much.

Even with all of that variety the closest I seem to come to mindfulness while
eating is when I pay a lot or go out to eat with foodie friends (but I repeat
myself).

It comes from a very utilitarian approach to food that I've (perhaps
foolishly) taken my whole life. Eat fast and get on with important work.
That's probably another reason a Soylent type product appeals to me.

I am curious about the book but trying to maintain mindfulness while eating
every meal, frankly, seems like an extravagance. Of course, that is just a
guess on the advice it contains based on the title.

~~~
jacques_chester
Oh, is there a book by that title? She just told me about the idea at some
point; apparently it's an up and comer in the food / eating psychology world.
Her research and therapeutic work is focused on eating disorders.

I understand the utilitarian approach. I've done it myself.

My current diet is goal-directed.

But that doesn't mean I think I'm smarter or better than dietitians who read
more than the abstracts on pubmed. I haven't entirely replaced food. I just
have a dozen or so meals that I can make quickly, scale up or down, which have
known macronutrient breakdowns and which I can rotate according to my daily
whims and tastes.

------
manishsharan
Learn cooking ! Its a great way to unwind and take your mind off things. Get a
COSCTO membership and a Pasta/Rice cooker. You will eat healthy, impress your
dates.

Nobody will remember or care about how you sacrificed your well-being/health
to put in extra effort at work. Except your body and it will remind you of
this as you grow older.

~~~
mbrock
Cooking is a stressor for many people. Sorry, can't go to the movies tonight,
have to make lunch for tomorrow. No time to read books, have to shop, prep,
cook and clean every evening after work. Food enthusiasts love it and are good
at it and paint this idyllic picture of it all that's not really in sync with
the daily reality for many people who work full time jobs and aren't
particularly interested in cooking. Me, I do like to cook, but it takes a LOT
of time, and I would love to have more time for other stuff without paying a
fortune to eat out.

------
neonhomer
My question is why don't prisons ONLY serve nutraloaf? Probably healthier than
the pink slime stuff they serve in public schools.

~~~
billybob255
The prisoners would go crazy from the lack of variety. Nutraloaf sucks, and as
bad as prison food is the same bland loaf of crap day in and day out will just
make everyone angry. People aren't robots, and putting at least a little
effort towards keeping prisoners from causing trouble is well worth it.

~~~
jacques_chester
Plus, if it's the baseline, how do you use it for punishment?

------
batemanesque
loving that some mod changed the headline from "A cheaper alternative to
Soylent?" to "Nutraloaf", thereby removing the satire - wouldn't want to
offend our investor overlords.

of course, there's no record of the edit, & my name is still attached to the
article. nice to see Paul Graham's as ethical & self-aware as ever.

