
Startup Says It’s Changing Eye Care for the Better. Others See It Differently - wiggles_md
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/21/business/media/hubble-contact-lens.html
======
cbsks
“The company said it switched to phone-only cancellations from 9 a.m. to 6
p.m. on weekdays and suspended emails, like notifications about a customer’s
first paid order following a free trial, that were “reminding” people to
cancel their subscriptions.”

That’s some scummy behavior.

~~~
SheinhardtWigCo
Since July 2018 it’s also been illegal for any business with paying customers
in California, thanks to SB 313.

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aaronbrethorst
It seems entirely likely that two things are simultaneously true: Hubble
contacts are more likely to have complications than the big manufacturers'
lenses, and the big manufacturers engage in anticompetitive behavior.

Sounds like a great arena for some pro-consumer regulation or legislation.

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matthewowen
I would have more sympathy for this take if the average optometrist did
anything more than prescribe whichever lens is offering the best rebate or
whatever.

Like, has anyone had the optometrist try multiple lenses and work to get a
fit? In my experience they put you in something and then maybe if it is
unpleasant they'll try something else, but it's dependent on you being
proactive, much as it would be if you were in Hubble.

~~~
falcolas
Short answer: Yes. Absolutely yes.

Long answer: I have Keratoconus, which means my cornea has uneven thickness
across its surface, which causes bubbles in my cornea, creating a very uneven
prescription across my eye. The contacts I use are called “scleral” lenses,
which use a liquid-filled void to nullify my actual cornea shape, creating a
new cornea. They are expensive, require specialized training to adjust, and
nailing down a prescription involves doing adjustments with them in, and
working backwards to figure out the proper prescription.

My optometrist worked on my prescription for around 6 months solid, going
through around 12 pairs of $250 (per lens) contacts on their dime.

So, yeah. A good optometrist is fantastic, and does a ton for you.

~~~
eugeneyev
Interesting to see someone else with this condition on YC . If you don't mind
me asking, which area are you in and if you could PM the info of the
optometrist. I am wearing sclerals as well, but the cost was far higher -
around $5000 for the first round, and around $3500 when I went back 3 years
later to see if we can improve vision and comfort even further. On the other
hand, the fitting process was much more efficient - there was a new set of
lenses ready daily, so although we went through 9 lenses for the right eye and
4 for the left on the first round, it took under 2 weeks.

Did you end up doing CXL? Are you considering it, or any of the other
procedures.

~~~
falcolas
I have not done CXL; it's not that bad.

I'm in Montana, and a vast majority of the costs were covered as medical
expenses, so my health insurance covered the optometrist costs. I only end up
paying the cost of the lenses themselves. The optometrist office themselves
build the cost of the followup fittings into their normal billing prices;
there were no costs for any of the followup meetings.

Most of the iteration time was the shipping, since I'm _not_ near any contact
lens manufacturers.

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asr
There’s nobody to like here. Your eye doctor can make a bunch of money selling
you contacts and therefore doctors will say lots of dumb things about how
dangerous Hubble is. Were the same doctors also talking about how dangerous
contacts were a few years ago when this technology was state of the art? No.
They are doing a much better job of looking out for themselves than for
patients.

At the same time, it’s probably ALSO true that, if you can afford it, a brand
using newer technology may be better. And you should talk to an eye doctor
about the decision. I just wish eye doctors were not selling you anything and
were in business to be doctors; that would make it a lot easier to trust that
you were getting good advice.

PS I have a lot of experience with the price of contact lenses from my job,
weirdly. For the best prices, you should buy contacts from either Costco or
any online retailer besides 1-800 Contacts (Walmart, etc.). But I would
suggest you buy the brand you’ve been prescribed.

~~~
ghaff
In my experience, Optometrists are often not huge fans of contacts generally.
Probably because, especially contacts that are worn too long, worn even when
an eye gets irritated, etc. can lead to complications that generally don’t
exist with glasses.

Also FWIW, my optometrist just passes me to the front desk when he’s done. No
one pressures me to buy contacts or glasses from them and, in fact, I mail
order my contacts from Walmart.

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dpandya
As someone working in this area, this is an interesting article.

The core issue of compliance is somewhat buried in the text, but worth
pointing out. Optometrists' chief complaint is that very few offices seem to
be prescribing the Hubble contacts brand specifically and yet, Hubble seem to
be selling them to customers. This implies to them that either all
prescriptions aren't being verified or are somehow being "passively" verified.
Within the current rules set in place by the FTC, they believe it's unlikely
quite so many prescriptions are passively verified.

The FTC is actually actively working on developing new rules around
prescription verification to address some of these concerns. [1]

[1]: [https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-
releases/2019/05/ftc-s...](https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-
releases/2019/05/ftc-seeks-additional-public-comment-proposed-changes-contact-
lens)

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mdekkers
> _When she was treated at an ophthalmologist’s office, they asked about her
> lenses. “I said Hubble and they said, ‘Oh, that’s it. You’re not the
> first,’” she said_

I'm no expert, but that doesn't sound like a solid diagnosis. Sounds more like
"we don't like those people". My immediate question would be "why are they at
fault?" A corneal ulcer has many possible causes, and if I was the patient,
I'd really like to know what exactly caused this condition. I mean, if Hubble
is selling faulty lenses that causes this condition, at the very least you
would be able to hold them responsible.

~~~
phonon
Hubble uses a contact lens with poor oxygen permeability...which can lead to
infection/swelling.

"Hubble contacts are made with an old material called methafilcon A, which has
a Dk/t of 18.8. Research shows that a Dk/t of 24 is necessary to maintain
cornea integrity and avoid swelling."

[https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/9o6a0h/ysk_t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/9o6a0h/ysk_the_contact_lens_company_hubble_is_fulfilling/)

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phonon
The so-called prescription confirmation they do is _incredibly_ bizarre.

[https://qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/hubble-contacts-
ro...](https://qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/hubble-contacts-robocall-
justin-bazan.mp3)

(From an earlier article on [https://qz.com/1154306/hubble-sold-contact-
lenses-with-a-fak...](https://qz.com/1154306/hubble-sold-contact-lenses-with-
a-fake-prescription-from-a-made-up-doctor/) )

------
Traster
This article is really disappointing. There are a few key claims against
Hubble but there's one in particular that it just astonishes me they didn't
verify. If Hubble are substituting their own lenses when the prescription
specifies a different brand it would be _trivial_ to just call an eye doctor
and say "Hi, we want to investigate this, we want to get a prescription from
you, request contacts from Hubble and then check how their process works" .

Yet, they didn't bother. So all we have is speculation.

~~~
phonon
You can read more here and here [https://qz.com/1154306/hubble-sold-contact-
lenses-with-a-fak...](https://qz.com/1154306/hubble-sold-contact-lenses-with-
a-fake-prescription-from-a-made-up-doctor/)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/9o6a0h/ysk_t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/9o6a0h/ysk_the_contact_lens_company_hubble_is_fulfilling/)

listen to their "verification" message

[https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/hubble-
contact...](https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/hubble-contacts-
robocall-justin-bazan.mp3)

------
joe5150
Hubble's lenses cost $54 per eye per 90-day supply. The sphere version of the
daily lens I wear (Hubble doesn't sell a toric lens) is $52 per 90 lenses
where I buy them, potentially less if you shop around. I found several
mainstream daily brands online for less than $54, some of which are Si-Hy.
Brands made from materials comparable to Hubble are already close in cost to
Hubble, you can generally buy them online, and most places offer a
subscription already, so I don't really see the appeal here.

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samdung
One time user of contact lenses here: Most times, complications due contact
lenses is because of improper care by the user. You need to clean lenses every
time you want to wear or store them. You need to do this even with disposable
lenses. It's a big hassle.

~~~
silencio
You don't have to clean daily disposables (like Hubble).

I mean, I'm sure some people are reusing daily disposables, but the idea is to
just use and toss.

I switched to daily disposables a few years ago (out of ~15 years of contacts
use) and I kick myself for not doing it sooner. I no longer have to spend like
4-5 minutes a day cleaning the lenses or throwing 2 week disposables 1 week
into use due to protein buildup, and they no longer aggravate my allergies
either.

~~~
ghaff
People vary.

Extended wear disposables were so great for me when I switched many years ago.
Protein buildup meant that even with cleaning contacts were uncomfortable by
the time I had to replace them.

On the other hand I’ve never had an issue with 2 week extended wear.

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pkaye
How do the rate of complications for Hubble compare with the other brands?

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dr01d
I see what you did there

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pravda
Looks like a submarine story!

[http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html)

I wonder who hired the PR firm to get this article published? Was it the
optometrists? No, they don't have that much money.

I'd guess this article was bought with a grant from Johnson & Johnson, your
friendly contact lens giant.

In any case, if you need contacts, skip Hubble. Go direct to Daysoft.

[http://www.daysoft.com](http://www.daysoft.com)

~~~
starpilot
Is every article focusing on a company a submarine? Maybe some events in
business are just interesting and newsworthy on their own.

~~~
pravda
That is true...but this article is very slanted. And it has all the
characteristics of a PR firm pitched article.

Spreading FUD about your competitors is a time-honored business practice.
These upstart companies represent a threat to the profits of the industry
giants.

But I recommend Daysoft in the UK. $8 for 32 lenses! And no prescription
needed.

[http://www.daysoft.com/usa](http://www.daysoft.com/usa)

~~~
originpoint25
That doesn’t really hold up. Reporters at the major non trade outlets complain
about PR people constantly - conspiratorial to somehow tie this to a grant
from J&J (?!) and not Hubble’s shady practices and user harm.

Meanwhile, why are you promoting Daysoft so aggressively?

~~~
pravda
You created an account just to make this comment? Interesting.

Your "shady practices and user harm" quip makes you think you might be a
flack. Did your firm get this article published? Good work!

My promotion of Daysoft lets you know I am not flacking for Hubble!

