
CentOS Stream - swonderl
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/transforming-development-experience-within-centos
======
bubblethink
>CentOS Stream is parallel to existing CentOS builds

So why does regular CenOS exist in this day and age given its semi-official
status under the RH umbrella ? Why doesn't RH just let people use RHEL without
support ? Isn't it a massive waste of everyone's resources to rebuild
everything and remove the trademarks? This seems like a more interesting
future for CentOS to have as something different from baseline RHEL.

~~~
peterwwillis
> Why doesn't RH just let people use RHEL without support ?

They do: it's called CentOS. CentOS was acquired by RedHat in 2014, keeping an
independent governance body. But the reason RedHat didn't release itself as
open source was Oracle. They were rebuilding RHEL and reselling it, so RedHat
closed up its process and did the bare minimum required to comply with the
GPL. Brian Stevens confirmed it. So now RedHat exists in order to make money
off a supported product [and fend off competitors [and enforce trademarks]],
and CentOS exists to keep control over the open-source spin-off of the same.
So if you want the real deal certified supported enterprise distro, you have
to pay for it, and if you want an uncertified slightly-not-the-same open-
source alternative, that's free.

~~~
jacques_chester
It's worth noting that the existential threat has eased a lot for Red Hat.
Openshift is growing as alternative revenue stream but has a long way to go
before it replaces RHEL subscriptions. But now that IBM is keeping the lights
on, Red Hat has at least a decade of breathing room it didn't have before. It
can afford to loosen the RHEL reigns a bit.

Disclosure: I work for Pivotal, we compete against Red Hat in a number of
ways.

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simias
I like it, at least in theory. I develop some industrial software that runs on
RHEL so being able to run somewhat similar distribution on my machine would be
convenient. I tried running CentOS but it was too frustrating and limiting to
deal with all the outdated packages on a dev machine.

I suppose it will also be good for devs who just like the RHEL environment but
don't need a super stable, outdated packages.

~~~
techdevangelist
Agreed, and I’ve appreciated RH putting in effort like Software Collections to
bring more modern versions of tools. The implementation may leave a bit to be
desired of SCL packages but it could be worse with 3rd party RPMs.

~~~
lunchables
>I’ve appreciated RH putting in effort like Software Collections to bring more
modern versions of tools

Then you are going to love Modularity and Application Streams:

[https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2018/11/15/rhel8-introduc...](https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2018/11/15/rhel8-introducing-
appstreams/)

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tapoxi
So this is confusing. Does this mean following a Chrome-ish lifecycle of
Fedora > CentOS Stream > RHEL/CentOS? Where do Atomic Host/CoreOS fit in?

~~~
mattdm
Right now, after RHEL branches from Fedora, it's disconnected — basically a
fork more than a branch. This provides a public upstream for the RHEL 8.y
branches.

Atomic Host is being retired.

CoreOS has two branches, one which is part of OpenShift (RHCOS) and Fedora
CoreOS. That's very different from the RHEL model, so it doesn't directly map.

~~~
CameronNemo
Original CoreOS is also built on Gentoo, not an RPM base.

~~~
mattdm
Sure. That became Container Linux. Now we have Fedora CoreOS, which combines
tech and ideas from both Atomic Host and CoreOS/Container Linux. It uses
Fedora packages but through rpm-ostree, not with the yum/dnf system you might
be used to.

Since CentOS Stream and Fedora brances will exist in the same git system, I
can see future Fedora CoreOS making use of slower-moving CentOS Stream
branches where useful. But that's all to be worked out.

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awill
So who is this for? Blog post says this is for people who want to test stuff
before it lands in RHEL. Valuable to enterprise hardware/software companies
etc..

But, if it's sort of a rolling RHEL, then this could be excellent for people
who trust RHEL and want stability, but more frequent updates (which is exactly
why I know lots of people using Debian Testing over Stable).

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nimbius
>The CentOS Stream project sits between the Fedora Project and RHEL in the
RHEL Development process, providing a "rolling preview" of future RHEL kernels
and features.

Thats what Fedora was originally for. Fedora advancements were mainlined into
RHEL, and RHEL was repackaged as Centos.

If i had to propose a theory...At worst, this is "embrace, extend,
extinguish." Tacking on a vainglorious service for an already successful
project thats siphoning potential customers. Centos cant directly relate their
brand to RedHat, but Redhat gets to call their offering "Centos Stream" when
Centos is itself a trademark? Its very suspicious.

At best, this is Redhat acknowledging that they were absolutely blindsided by
Docker, Compose, and Kubernetes in RHEL7. This all existed in EPEL and
customers clearly felt preferential to the offerings themselves, while RedHat
had to scramble to allocate resources to Openshift, podman, and a potential
ground-up fork of Docker itself into Redhat as Swarm was clearly a direct
threat. SCL is dated and cludgy.

By injecting themselves into Centos, they may put themselves closer to a
developer market that theyve historically not been able to tap. Startups and
small businesses dont buy IBM/Redhat licenses or support. They also have a
chance to react to potential disasters like Docker much faster, albeit seeing
as they are a part of the big blue machine now, its hard to imagine this will
help in the long run.

~~~
CameronNemo
>Centos cant directly relate their brand to RedHat, but Redhat gets to call
their offering "Centos Stream" when Centos is itself a trademark? Its very
suspicious.

Sus? Sure. Illegal? Not possible. IBM holds all the trademarks here. They draw
the lines where they please.

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jeremyjh
So if we strip all the market speak out we are just getting a rolling release
distribution like Debian testing?

~~~
zokier
As far as I can tell it is more rolling than Debian testing because it
wouldn't need to be occasionally frozen etc for releases

~~~
bonzini
Would it still be frozen for a month or two when RHEL minor releases enter
beta?

~~~
mattdm
This is to be worked out, but I don't think so. I think there might be a
frozen branch internally for that but the Stream branch should continue (and
therefore might end up ahead of the beta).

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nik736
So basically the cloud competitor for Ubuntu, since they marketed Fedora wrong
all the time.

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AlmostCosmo
More info and explanation here from the CentOS team:
[https://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOSStream](https://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOSStream)

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farisjarrah
Wow, a CentOS with a rolling release model. Super cool! I really hope this
makes CentOS a bit more competitive with Ubuntu for the hobbiest/project
space. Seems like raspbian/debian/ubuntu could use some competition in the
space.

~~~
snuxoll
You’re thinking more along the lines of Fedora, this probably tracks what Red
Hat is aiming for in their regular point releases for RHEL.

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traceroute66
CentOS 8 is a case of too little too late for me. There were so many cobwebs
growing on CentOS 7, and no clear timeline ever being given on when (or if !)
CentOS8 might ever arrive that we gradually shifted elsewhere.

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porjo
It's curious that RHEL/CentOS 8 is using nftables instead of iptables by
default and yet the next release of Fedora will continue to use iptables.

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zokier
I wonder what future Fedora will have if this new CentOS Stream will be stable
enough for developer daily driver. 6 month release cycle of Fedora always felt
awkwardly in-between, not having the stability of lts nor the continuity of
rolling. I guess lot depends on details on how the packages flow to CentOS
Stream, do they come from released Fedora versions or rawhide etc.

~~~
lunchables
>6 month release cycle of Fedora always felt awkwardly in-between, not having
the stability of lts nor the continuity of rolling

I run both Arch and Fedora, and since I think around Fedora 28 I've found that
the upgrades are painless enough that it hasn't been much of an issue. The
recommendation years ago was to do a full re-install of Fedora (every 6
months!) which was kind of a hassle, but these days its very simple.

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gigatexal
So a modern RHEL but more stable than say bleeding edge fedora? Interesting

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znpy
yes, it's nice and everything, but where is CentOS 8.0 ?

~~~
LaSombra
[https://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOS8.1905](https://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOS8.1905)

~~~
znpy
thanks :) I was expecting to see it on the homepage, frankly...

~~~
orpheline
Yeah - weird they haven't updated [https://centos.org/](https://centos.org/)
with the release announcement yet...

~~~
tflink
It shows up for me. There is an announcement at the bottom of the home page
and the download links already show links to CentOS 8

~~~
znpy
Yup, it shows up now, but it wasn't there when I first posted the comment.

Super Kudos to the CentOS people!

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zsoltsandor
Sounds like an interesting option to discover, considering the enterprise
professional background of the project.

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simosx
> – The new CentOS Stream is a rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead
> of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) development

So if someone wanted a free RHEL through CentOS, now CentOS is no longer a
free RHEL.CentOS is now RHEL-devel.

~~~
kjeetgill
CentOS is still the same CentOS. CentOS Stream is "RHEL-devel".

