

Ask HN: Did my poor choice in higher education hurt my career permanently? - lysol

I attended a local business college that turned into a diploma mill experience. They were later snatched up by Kaplan University and morphed into one. I finished out my BS because by the time I realized how bad the decision was, it was better to just finish it up and graduate than quit and pay off a debt with nothing to show for it.<p>I'd like to think I'm a little more self-aware now, and definitely have picked up on much more knowledge since then. Does it really matter that I attended a diploma mill in relation to looking for great jobs down the line? I currently have an average junior DBA/development gig that is decent for the area, but would love to do something more inspiring someday soon. Does anyone have similar stories to relate that might give me some insight on how I should treat my career?<p>(Just a note that I've been out of school for about 6 years now, and now have about four years at said gig under my belt, if that helps clarify a bit.)
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SwellJoe
Maybe not permanently, but yes, it definitely hurt your career. I'm not sure
why everyone wants to deny that what college is on your resume matters. It
really does matter. Google hires from "top-tier schools" (you can get in via
other paths, but that's the easy one, and the only way you can get to work at
Google straight out of college). Likewise facebook and all the other hot
places to work in technology.

I was unaware of this fact when I made my school decisions, and my parents
were mostly unaware of this fact as well (having been the first in both their
families to attend college of any sort; to them the distinction was "went to
college" and recognized little difference between "went to a good college" and
"went to a bad college"), so I somewhat aimlessly attended a community college
for four years. It took me about 5 years from finishing school to get to the
point where I could work in high-paying jobs alongside people who had degrees
from MIT, Caltech, Duke, etc. And the most important element in that process
was probably writing a technical book and getting it published by a well-known
publisher. I wouldn't have needed that book and other experience and getting
such a job could have happened immediately after college had I attended a good
school.

I've rarely let this bother me, as I've always known I wanted to work for
myself, and I don't need to see a diploma to know what I can do. But, I can
say that there have been a few occasions in my life where I desperately needed
to be able to get a job in order to pay my bills (running your own business
when you don't know how can lead to running up a lot of debt), and the jobs I
could get were simply awful. Without a good degree, and without a solid trail
of work-experience, you don't get the callback on high-paying jobs. There are
always candidates with a good education who will edge you out in the selection
process.

I believe you're going to need to take the initiative and fix your situation
yourself. It won't happen by accident, and it won't happen by staying in one
low-level position until your superiors deem you worthy of promotion.

I wrote a book, got involved in numerous Open Source projects, spoke at
conferences, and did really good work whenever I found myself in a contract
position at a really good company (on a few occasions that led to full-time
employment offers, including an office with more Ph.Ds per square meter than
any other place I've stepped foot). I feel pretty confident that at this point
in my life, I could get a job working at almost any tech company in the world,
because I have so much to show for my time since college. But, I've been out
of college for 12 years...that's a long time to wait to start getting good
jobs and making a good salary.

You don't have to go back to school to "fix" the problem, but you do need to
do something dramatic. Start a successful company. Write a book for
publication (preferably a good one). Start an Open Source project and make it
really successful. Just going to work every day will not cause the world to
begin to agree with you on your value in the workplace. If you believe you're
being undervalued and underutilized, you're going to have to do something
about it.

~~~
benwr
I'm very nervous about this. I'm a rising sophomore at Virginia Tech (best in-
state engineering school for ECE), and, while it's not a diploma mill, it's
also certainly not "top-tier". I wonder whether my job prospects (or, worse,
my education) suffer because of it. I take it your advice would be to get
moving on the OSS/Company-starting as soon as possible? What other methods
might make me a more impressive candidate?

~~~
SwellJoe
Virginia Tech is far from a diploma mill or a community college, and is
probably on Google's accepted school list. It's not Stanford or Caltech or
MIT, but it's not a problem you need to fret about.

~~~
nostrademons
Actually, one of the most productive programmers I know at Google is a
Virginia Tech alum...

------
nostrademons
There are very few career mistakes that hurt you permanently, if you make an
effort to recover from them. Usually, the way it works is that a low-quality
degree shunts you into a low-quality initial job, which then makes you lower
your expectation about what you _can_ achieve, which prevents you from going
for better opportunities as they arise. This cycle is very much breakable, it
just requires that you do something unexpected.

Basically, if your degree sucks, it will force the hiring manager to look much
more closely at your other accomplishments. If you have none, you're screwed.
If you have a track record of shipping products that other people want to use,
nobody is going to care about your degree.

------
jdietrich
If you're not regularly getting unsolicited offers of employment, you're not
spending enough time on career development. Start a blog, contribute to open
source projects and hustle like a motherfucker.

If you want to work on exciting things, work on exciting things. Demonstrate
that you're halfway good at it and people will offer you money to do it for
them. It really is as simple as that.

To me, the idea of a software developer seeking employment based on their
degree is as ridiculous as a rock singer trying to book a gig on the basis of
his BA. We work in a field where theoretical understanding is no guarantee of
practical ability, but proving practical ability is straightforward.
Developers who rely on credentials can't code and employers who rely on
credentials can't hire. You want to keep the hell away from all of them.

------
pkananen
Well, my company, an enterprise agile dev consulting firm, could really care
less if you had a degree.

My guess is that most places you REALLY want to work won't care where your
degree is from. Work on cool stuff, share what you do on github, and look for
ways to learn and grow. It will be evident.

~~~
windsurfer
So if they could care less, they do care a little?

~~~
pkananen
No, they don't care. I have heard them say to college interns that they should
stop spending money on school so they can work sooner.

------
gregpilling
Your degree and what school you went to don't matter. What matters at this
point is what you have accomplished. So what have you? If you have no publicly
available proof of your work (open source, or web app, business ...) then get
started. It is never too late. At the age you would be by now, people will
judge you on your accomplishments.

I am 41 and have a couple of small companies (30 employees total). For my
education, I barely graduated from public high school. I had my sister write a
special make up paper so I could pass French. Without that I would not have
made it. I am married now to a professor. I go to many parties with academics,
and they are mostly impressed with the fact that I am self employed. I am
impressed with all the degrees and publications they have. Nobody asks me
where I went to school because that is not relevant to figure out if I am
successful or worth talking to.

So to summarize - your place of education has an order of magnitude less
importance than what you have accomplished. And the gap will get wider as you
get older. So do something that people can see, and prove to the world that
you are capable.

------
brudgers
If you have been out of school six years, where you went to school should at
best only be a minor consideration regarding your qualifications - proven
track record will nearly always trump academic credentials in the business
world.

In addition attending a mediocre local school due to limited options is
different from traveling across country to do so as an explicit choice.

------
lysol
Thanks everyone, the personal anecdotes are the fuel I need to keep me
motivated. It's tough when you see lots of big news about developers at
startups doing amazing things and you just think 'well, I didn't do x,y,z
perfectly, so I'm not eligible for this kind of project'. I work for a fairly
small company that's existed for over 10 years but is still in startup mode,
probably for the wrong reasons. But it's convinced me that startups and other
small outfits are definitely where I want to be. Thanks everyone!

------
schintan
I agree with what everyone says here, but I think that reflects the OP's
concern that he will have to prove himself by going the extra step, developing
a worthwhile portfolio of work before being accepted as a person who knows his
stuff. On the other hand ,a person with a degree from a known institute would
be assumed by "most" people to have those skills , even without having
anything to show for them.

~~~
wccrawford
I doubt you'll find any company that hires solely based on a degree. They all
have an interview process designed to force you to prove you actually know how
to code. Some use in-person interviews, some require code samples, but all
require proof, and a degree is never proof in this field.

So no, I don't think he has hurt his career at all. Maybe slowed down the
initial job, but with a decent portfolio (which he'd need anyhow) then his
second job will be right back on track.

------
jerrya
Consider getting a master's degree from a recognized institution.

Also consider joining some large company that will pay for that master's
degree.

------
crikli
I think that depends on what you want your career to be.

If you're looking to work for startup and/or small firms, it's probably not
going to matter. You've got a gig right now, they're going to care about what
you did and learned at that gig. I know that my company doesn't care about
what your degree is in or where it's from. Hell, all that has become is a
measure of how much debt you and your parents were willing to accomodate.

If you're looking to work for a big firm, I dunno, Google or something, it's
probably going be something they'll use to vet resumes.

This is not new advice, but now that you have your degree focus on creating
stuff. Do something in the open source community. Blog the things you learn
here and there. Your experiences and your portfolio of work is far more
important to a smart hiring authority than some damn diploma.

~~~
nostrademons
Google will hire people without big-name degrees if they have big-name
accomplishments. I know folks from SJSU or with no undergrad degree at all
that are working in pretty high-up positions. They can't get hired straight
out of school, but there're a bunch of things you can do in the meantime that
increase your desirability to employers.

~~~
crikli
Yeah, Google was a bad example. IBM maybe? I can't think of a big company that
I know for sure requires specific degrees from specific institutions.

~~~
salemh
I used to recruit for several "large" firms including top-3 finance, a few
smaller hedge funds, then the top eCommerce firms (sans Google). The finance
hedge funds had the most strict req's. Target school, CS degree (nothing else
but CS), no Masters or higher degree, 0-2 years of experience etc.

This was due to "taint" from over-education, etc.

Otherwise, you needed a degree or some very solid accomplishments to be looked
at for a top eCommerce / tech firm. Many financial firms require a 4 year
degree or a sign-off from a Senior Manager.

Most of my roles were $90-140,000

You only "hurt" your career if you wish to stay in a corporate climbing-the-
ladder world. EG: progressively moving up in pay / title, non-degree's seem to
have $5-$15,000 less salary in my experience.

The most important long-term indicator of income was (my Google skills are
failing me for citation) the first position. If you started low ($30-$35,000),
in 10 years, you will of course still be behind your peers who started at
$50-$60,000. The first position out of school also tended to keep you "stuck"
in that track.

But, these are "averages" and nothing is limiting but your own ambition and
drive.

~~~
hedgie
"The finance hedge funds had the most strict req's. Target school, CS degree
(nothing else but CS), no Masters or higher degree, 0-2 years of experience
etc."

haha, I had considered this route since I have a BS in CS/math and MS in math
and I figured they would like that more. apparently not. I like working 40
hours a week anyways at an employer that pays more more for the MS.

...and will just take the financial actuarial exams if I want in that route
anyways.

------
resnamen
You can compensate for a less-sexy degree by demonstrating excellent career
growth. The time to act on this is now. Six years out of college, and four
years in the same job - you're on the threshold of appearing stale.

Take some time to set long-term goals for yourself, determine what steps you
would need to take to get there, and then execute on the steps that are
feasible for you at the moment.

I have found that the career growth paths at many companies are quite immature
- there are more options available when you consider changing employers versus
busywaiting on the scarce promotional opportunities available in your career
track at a single company. Doubly so if you are trying to overcome prejudices
about your skill set, like if you are trying to make the leap from software
testing to development, etc.

------
coryl
Where you were educated matters much less when you have an awesome list of
projects/experience to refer to.

------
HeyLaughingBoy
Define "hurt my career." Working for Google or Facebook? Maybe fresh out of
school it would be a problem, but six years after? I find that hard to
believe.

In any case, there is more to the employment world than Google, Facebook, or
Apple. Want to work for a Fortune 500 business? Well there's _500_ employers
right there, most of whom aren't too concerned with where you went to school 6
years ago, but care more about what you did since.

I've been interviewing people for a few years and the only time the university
is noticed is if it's Harvard or MIT or something well known. And even then it
counts for absolutely NOTHING.

------
naner
Harvard has a merit-based remote Master's program for Software Engineering[1]
if you're interested in continuing education.

A strong professional network will help overcome most deficiencies. Companies
are concerned with reputability and a school name or a degree are just a part
of that. In that same vein, there are other areas of your professional
reputation you can bolster as well.

1: [http://blog.markwshead.com/911/harvard-online-masters-
degree...](http://blog.markwshead.com/911/harvard-online-masters-degree-in-
software-engineering/)

~~~
tehjones
Wow $20,000 is a lot of money. I really feel sorry for those i the states,
when you consider I could enter a residence masters program in Sweden for
nothing (coming from the EU) you really wonder where the cost of education
comes from.

~~~
sp332
You know it's not really free, right? You and everyone you know will be paying
taxes to pay for that "free" education for the rest of your careers.

Not saying it's a bad deal, but it's not free.

~~~
rdl
It is also not really free to you directly; there is an opportunity cost to
being in a full-time graduate program vs. remaining in your job, advancing in
your career, or starting a company.

It still might be the right choice for financial and non-financial reasons,
but school isn't free even if you don't have to pay for it.

------
julsonl
By my own experience, if you have the appropriate skills and knowledge, most
companies could care less on where you graduated. Some larger companies' HR
departments can be university snobs, but I never encountered that on all the
startups that I've applied to.

Just keep studying, do great work, and grow your portfolio; and I'm sure
you'll do fine.

------
gorbachev
Nobody that matters will look at your schooling after a few years of
experience. Those that do you should avoid, as they care more about
superficial credentials than what you can actually do.

------
andrewtbham
You don't have to put it on your resume.

------
MenaMena123
You seem a bit like myself, a few years back. You are worried about "School
Names" or how it looks to others.

Don't even worry about what school you attended, worry about the things you
know. Did you learn anything?

Worry about what your skills are, good companies could careless if you went to
no school and know the skills instead.

Worry about what projects you have done and what you learned from each one,
even if the project was by yourself.

My point is people are so hung up on schools and degrees, they forget the
skills and experience out-way any degree.

So worry about skills and experience even if its on your own experiments. The
passed is the passed, hopefully you learned something at the school at the
least.

You just don't learn in schools.

