
US considers cloth face masks for the public - tartoran
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52126183
======
yibg
I understand the need to preserve masks and respirators for medical personnel,
but did the talking point earlier really need to be they provide no benefit?
It feels like now the population has been taught to not wear masks and it’ll
be an uphill battle to reverse that.

~~~
throwaway5752
The reality is most people would not correctly fit a n95, and an improperly
fit n95 would only provide marginal benefit.

Even in article, we are talking cloth face masks. That will provide even less
marginal protection to the wearer from contracting the virus. But it will
reduce the spread from an infected person. The goal isn't to wear a mask to
protect yourself, the goal is to not spread the virus as an asymptomatic
carrier

It's not fruitful to worry about a hypothetical. I worry more about asking
many Americans to do something they perceive as altruistic.

edit: it is rude to call something FUD if it isn't. I didn't say no benefit, I
said marginal. And I think everyone greater risk in a general healthcare
systemic collapse, which is what is on the table. If you weigh all the risks,
until there are enough for all medical purposes they should go to medical
wearers. Then it should be triaged by vulnerability. This seems really common
sense. And obviously, a homemade cloth mask, scarf, or t-shirt when forced
into a situation around other people is basic common sense, and I didn't feel
the need to say it. That's why I'm talking about N95s, not masks, and
certainly not cloth masks that are homemade.

edit: downvotes are frustrating. I am almost restating the article verbatim to
correct misunderstandings in the comments here about what and why is being
suggested.

 _However, on Wednesday, Dr Adams told Good Morning America that the CDC had
been asked to review its guidelines on masks, because "we've learned there's a
fair amount of asymptomatic spread" \- although he stressed that medical masks
should still be left to health care professionals who needed them most._

and

 _However, more and more health experts now say there are benefits.

They argue that the public use of masks can primarily help by preventing
asymptomatic patients - people who have been infected with Covid-19 but are
not aware, and not displaying any symptoms - from unknowingly spreading the
virus to others._

edit: check out
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22752501](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22752501)
for resources that say indicate otherwise on mask wearing even benefiting the
wearer. Don't be an antisocial asshole and buy or wear N95s and give them to
healthcare workers, who face a much higher viral loads than you, until supply
constraints are resolved.

~~~
joshstrange
> The reality is most people would not correctly fit a n95, and an improperly
> fit n95 would only provide marginal benefit.

Marginal > none

> Even in article, we are talking cloth face masks. That will provide even
> less marginal protection to the wearer from contracting the virus. But it
> will reduce the spread of an infected person. The goal isn't to wear a mask
> to protect yourself, the goal is to not spread the virus as an asymptomatic
> carrier

Not true, getting a lower dose of the virus initially gives your body more
time to develop antibodies.

~~~
Confiks
> Not true, getting a lower dose of the virus initially gives your body more
> time to develop antibodies.

Can you substantiate that claim with any evidence, preferably by citing
published articles? I'm not disagreeing, I just wasn't able to find any
myself.

~~~
joshstrange
Video of Rishi Desai, MD, MPH, Chief Medical Officer at Osmosis, Infectious
Disease Physician talking about large/small inoculant [0]

And From CEBM [1]:

> The initial dose of virus and the amount of virus an individual has at any
> one time might worsen the severity of COVID 19 disease. Viral load is a
> measure of the number of viral particles present in an individual. Higher
> SARS-CoV-2 viral loads. might worsen outcomes, and data from China suggests
> the viral load is higher in patients [2] with more severe disease. The
> amount of virus exposure at the start of infection – the infectious dose –
> may increase the severity of the illness and is also. linked to a higher
> viral load

[0] [https://youtu.be/cFB_C2ieW5I?t=771](https://youtu.be/cFB_C2ieW5I?t=771)

[1] [https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/sars-cov-2-viral-load-and-
the-...](https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/sars-cov-2-viral-load-and-the-severity-
of-covid-19/)

[2]
[https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099\(20\)30232-2/fulltext)

------
joshstrange
If you go out into public you should be wearing a face mask, period.

You want 3 easy things a mask can help with?

1\. Not being able to put your hands into your nose/mouth and remind you to
not touch your face

2\. Prevent the spread if you are asymptomatic but have it

3\. Increase the chance you get a "low dose" even if you do get it (leading to
a better outcome for you)

These things matter and will save lives. Even a cloth/homemade mask helps. The
CDC lied when they said it didn't and they lied because they knew there
weren't enough masks but in doing so they eroded public trust so when they
finally do get around to asking people to wear a mask there will be those that
won't now. Same way calling it "just the flu" continues to be parroted by
people. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

~~~
MengerSponge
The most effective thing you can do is to stay home. Wearing a mask might
help, but it may not. There isn't a good study on it.

Medicine has a history of shoddy study design and outright quackery, so
without a good RCT, medically trained professionals are loath to prescribe
some behavior.

There are studies that show how bad people are at wearing masks.

As for masks effectiveness, it's complicated. They might help filter
particles, or prevent the particles you exhale from going/staying airborne.
But you may also touch your face _more_ and in more dangerous ways when you're
wearing a mask.

There's also a very real risk of moral hazard, but people (see above) don't
know the relative risks of social behavior vs masks. If people feel safe b/c
they're wearing a mask, that's also self-defeating.

~~~
joshstrange
> There isn't a good study on it.

Other than countries that are currently wearing masks and are flattening the
curve?

> But you may also touch your face more and in more dangerous ways when you're
> wearing a mask.

This is simply a terrible argument for a number of reasons, first and
foremost: you do not get COVID-19 from touching your face. It has to get in
through the mouth or nose.

> If people feel safe b/c they're wearing a mask, that's also self-defeating.

Even if it makes them safer?

I can't even deal with people that want to say "we don't know if masks help"
then why are doctors and nurses wearing them?

~~~
MengerSponge
> Other than countries that are currently wearing masks and are flattening the
> curve?

Are there countries that are effectively flattening the curve without using
masks?

> This is simply a terrible argument for a number of reasons, first and
> foremost: you do not get COVID-19 from touching your face. It has to get in
> through the mouth or nose.

It either gets in because you touch those places, or because you breathed in
an aerosolized form through those places. (I'm assuming you breathe through
your face) If a mask causes you to to aerosolize more, or contaminate your
hands, then it isn't making you as safe as you thought.

> Even if it makes them safer?

Again, what's the evidence for this? A DOI would be sufficient.

> I can't even deal with people that want to say "we don't know if masks help"
> then why are doctors and nurses wearing them?

We don't know if masks help regular people. Normal people haven't been fitted
or trained, and that means they are overwhelmingly likely to wear them
incorrectly.

Again, we're back to moral hazard, only worse, because you aren't as protected
as you thought. Bad protection can be worse than no protection, because it
leads to a net _increase_ in risk. For example (all numbers are made up) if
you go out twice as often once you've got a mask, but the mask only reduces
your risk of exposure by 40%, then yes, the mask has a protective effect, but
you wearing the mask leads to a net _increase_ in risk. You would have been
better off not wearing the mask, and behaving more cautiously.

------
Endlessly
RELATED: “Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks” — which I recommend anyone
review before expressing a non-scientific based opinion:

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22648603](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22648603)

------
onemoresoop
Cloth doesn’t provide any protection for the wearer but “could” hold on to the
wearer’s virus thus slowing the spread. Id say it’s embarassinng that we came
to this but it can’t hurt though and may have some effect after all. I think
the fashion industry will go into a weird direction, hijabs are the new thing

~~~
oski
Cloth can still provide some protection. A mask made from a cotton blend
t-shirt can be ~70% effective at filtering a virus from droplets in the air.
(See this study:
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258525804_Testing_t...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258525804_Testing_the_Efficacy_of_Homemade_Masks_Would_They_Protect_in_an_Influenza_Pandemic))

I've made this "single-serving site" to share with friends and family who
aren't convinced yet:
[https://shouldiwearafacemask.com/](https://shouldiwearafacemask.com/)

~~~
onemoresoop
Absolutely, I expressed myself poorly, they do provide _some_ protection and
if everyone wore them it would be even more effective. But, on the other hand,
it would also provide a false sense of safety and being followed by lessening
the need for self isolation. But we shouldn't resort to such things, where are
the real safety masks? Its hard not to get worried about how so unprepared we
are and and in an eventual case of other imminent emergencies and crises we
might have even worse outcome. We should think more often about how we impact
our environment and how the weather has been changing and affecting everything
around us. Stay safe

------
brianzelip
The maker response in Baltimore includes hand sewn (and washable) face masks,
[https://www.flattenthecurvebaltimore.com/shop](https://www.flattenthecurvebaltimore.com/shop).
I’ve been 3D printing face shield parts for the same effort.

------
ykevinator
Should have a day 1 decision. I hope we are better prepared next time.

