

Ask HN: is it ethical to copy ideas from a similar site? - alain94040

I need the advice of the HN community: a few days ago, a site similar to ours came up with a much nicer web interface and flashy Ajax. It made some shortcomings of our site very clear. So we re-implemented our key page, clearly inspired by this other site.<p>You can judge for yourself: the site that inspired us is http://www.builditwith.me . Our old page is here:  http://fairsoftware.net/publicProjects and our new implementation here: http://fairsoftware.net/startup-ideas-find-co-founders.<p>I initially tried to contact the author of BuiltItWithMe to see if they would like to share or discuss, but didn't hear back after several days.<p>I believe in transparency and openness, but I'd really like to hear the opinion of people on HN. What is the right thing to do? I wouldn't want the other guys to believe that we are stealing from them (I'm pretty sure that we aren't, legally speaking). I don't think there should be any hard feelings. Am I just naive? Where do you draw the line, when you hold yourself to higher standards than just "anything goes on the Internet as long as you can get away with it?" Asking for permission doesn't seem practical. What else?<p>Thanks! (I'm somewhat optimistic based on the recent comments on http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=989120)
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oneplusone
It's fine to steal interface ideas. However, I think you took a step backwards
in doing so. Yes, what you had wasn't very good. However, what you have now is
even worse. Your original implementation was on the right track and just
needed some refinement.

~~~
gommm
I agree, the old version gave more information on what positions were needed
at a glance and was a bit more clear...

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mgrouchy
I don't think its unethical at all.

I think you did more than most would in trying to contact the buildItWith me
guys and that is certainly commendable.

I also don't think there is any confusion between the two products(From a look
and feel perspective) so no harm no foul. The internet is filled with people
taking "inspiration" from other sites and products. This can be evidenced
simply by the number of websites that look like
<http://www.campaignmonitor.com> .

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Tawheed
Blatantly copying is a bad idea. Understanding why they're different, and
figuring out the motivations behind their (different) choices and then
reflecting on the choices you've made for your product is a good idea.

Jason F at 37Signals wrote about this a while back:
[http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1561-why-you-shouldnt-copy-
us...](http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1561-why-you-shouldnt-copy-us-or-anyone-
else)

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gte910h
Yes, it's called competing.

~~~
pierrefar
And someone will eventually do the same to you. Be flattered when it happens.

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overgard
From a philosophical standpoint, I don't think you were wrong to borrow
interface ideas.

(I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds to say though, that while copying some
of their better ideas, I think you may have also copied some of their worse
ideas. The way scrolling works on both sites is very confusing -- your
original site was better in that regard. )

~~~
PebblesRox
I agree about the scrolling problems. I can't see the entire description for
an app because I can't move anything in that panel on the right. I can zoom
out to view all the text, but then it's too tiny to read.

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tortilla
Honestly, I think your (original) site looks better.

It (updated site) has a similar layout, but that's about it. You didn't copy
their look, maybe their layout. But if you asked someone on the street, I
doubt there would be any confusion.

edited: in parentheses to clarify

~~~
KWD
I agree. The original site was better in my opinion. The other site that
inspired you is a nightmare to view. Design is as much about function as it is
style.

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felideon
Obligatory quote? "Good artists copy, great artists steal." - Attributed to
Picasso

~~~
steveklabnik
Then there's this: [http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-
content/uploads/2009/07/th...](http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-
content/uploads/2009/07/the-bad-artists-imitate-the-great-artists-steal-
banksy-500x333.jpg)

~~~
cschep
yes yes yes, love bansky.

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hxa7241
Yes, copying is fundamentally moral/ethical. (Although where it conflicts with
a law, like copyright, it is another question -- does the law have
precedence?)

(As I have written in other places:) To evaluate something morally, we can
follow Kant (in 'Groundwork For The Metaphysic Of Morals'), whose fundamental
moral rule is: Act only if the maxim of your action can be willed as a
universal law. That is, we ask: would we want an action to become a general
law? If a digital object is good, then copying it duplicates and spreads that
good. And the incidental cost of copying is practically nothing. We can
certainly wish this were a general law: if everyone copied freely and widely,
we would all benefit – we would all receive very much more good, and at
negligable cost.

You might say there is a loss to the originator, in losing an exclusive
advantage. But that really has a hidden presupposition of some social or legal
construction like copyright: there is nothing intrinsic in the actions or
materials that suggests or requires exclusivity. Abstracts are naturally
copyable. Everyone knows and expects that. And ultimately everyone benefits
from it.

The copyability of things is like a free natural resource. It should be
exploited and used as much as possible. That is the message of the ethical
argument. The sad thing is that the copyright/patent/IP attitude has become so
inculcated that many people no longer see the underlying truth.

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mattmaroon
It's not only ethical, it's dumb not to. It's what businesses have been doing
since time immemorial. To watch your competitor improve and not do anything to
compete is stupid. Ask Yahoo or KMart.

From the legal angle you're probably alright. We recently built a game largely
based on another game (sort of the way omgpop built blockles, which is really
just Tetris) and I've spoken to attorneys about this extensively. Other than
crossing certain lines (trade dress, trademark infringement, etc.) you're
probably safe. If you're using their art, or their branding, you may have
trouble, but they certainly can't claim to have invented AJAX and a better UI.

You should seek legal counsel of course if it ever becomes a problem.

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imp
IMHO I hate their interface. That flashy Ajax is too overwhelming. Your plain
list is easier for me to read. Have you tried doing user testing with your two
pages and then also test how users interact with your competitor?

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apsurd
Aren't you supposed to be developing _your users_?

In other words, what does it matter what _their_ site does? Your users are on
_your_ site are they not? This builditwithme "looks nice"; it has 129 people;
what are you worried about?

Get some feedback from the people on your site. Talk to them, find out what,
how, why, where they are looking for and (not finding) help with their
project. It makes the farthest sense, at least in my opinion, to try to answer
those questions by looking at some other guys site design.

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jamie_ca
Seriously, that's a step backwards. I get no overview, can't just browse, and
with my browser window at 1024x768 your non-scrolling sidebar sometimes
doesn't have a more info button at the bottom.

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TrevorJ
I find that it is important to not just blindly copy something, but to truly
unpack the principles behind it and attempt to improve upon it. This allows
you to be inspired by great work but to (hopefully) take it even further and
polish it even more.

If you can't change or tweak anything about the original inpiration then it's
a good bet you don't fully understand _why_ it works or how, so you aren't
going to grow in the process.

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carbocation
We have had people inform us that they were going to mimic the core idea of
our site (and now they have, with venture backing). I wouldn't be worried
about borrowing an interface.

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makeee
What are you copying from builditwithme? I don't see much of a similarity.
Anyway, I think your original site is much better than the new one.

