

Why aren’t younger Americans driving anymore? - vellum
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/22/why-arent-younger-americans-driving-anymore/?tid=pm_business_pop

======
rayiner
Driving sucks, seriously.

I lived in downtown Atlanta for most of my adult life, and had a daily 23 mile
commute. Anywhere I needed to go, except the bar across the street, involved a
car trip.

Now I live in the New York suburbs, with a wife and baby, and I drive maybe
once a month between Metro North and the subway. My wife doesn't even have a
license anymore. It's incredibly liberating. I went to visit my parents last
month and got stuck in the never-ending D.C. traffic, and I seriously wanted
to kill people. I never realized how much aggression traffic created in me
until I didn't have to sit in it any more. I can get as drunk as I want
without worrying about driving home (drunk driving is _epidemic_ in car-
dependent places like Atlanta). On weekends, I have a happy baby in a stroller
instead of a cranky baby in a car seat. Just this weekend we rode the train in
from the suburbs, had coffee with my brother on the east side, went shopping
near Penn Station, and had drinks and dinner with an old high-school buddy on
the west side. At no point did we ever have to take the baby out of her
stroller. In D.C., merely going out to lunch is an exercise in traffic and
frustration every time the car stops and the baby starts screaming. I realize
now that sitting in a car going nowhere is frustrating for everyone, not just
the baby--it's just that the baby lacks coping mechanisms to deal with it...

~~~
jstrate
I don't understand the "driving sucks, regardless of circumstances" mentality.
Automobiles increase quality of life, along with practical range.

"My wife doesn't even have a license anymore. It's incredibly liberating."
Really?

"I seriously wanted to kill people." Really?

~~~
cesarbs
I have a hard time driving, altough I've been driving for a number of years
now.

My "mentality" is really just due to a personal problem. I understand there
are a lot of people who find driving easy and enjoy it. But driving for me is
a HUGE mental burden. I can't understand how people don't feel overwhelmed
having to monitor 1 rear view mirror and 2 side mirrors + controlling speed +
keeping eyes on the road + checking blind spots + paying attention to what's
happening around and to traffic signs and lights. And from my perspective,
people who add a stick shift to all that are just insane (moving to America
and driving automatics made driving immensely easier for me). The feeling I
have is that cars should be driven by giant spiders with eyes pointed to all
directions and many limbs for controlling everything.

The thing that prevents me from being a bad driver is putting a huge amount of
mental effort so as to do everything right. Otherwise I'll probably start
hitting every car in front of me and on my sides, and running over people and
stuff. By the time I get out of the car at my destination, I'm usually
exhausted and stressed.

I've recently moved to the US, and while driving here is much better than in
Brazil (where cities are a massive chaos), there are some elements which add a
lot to that "driving mental burden" of mine, such as right turns on red (I'd
rather wait for the light to go green, but people behind me get mad if I do
so).

So yeah, for me, driving sucks and I find it liberating when I don't need to
do it.

------
pshin45
The real question is, how long do we have to wait until Google's driver-less
cars become a mainstream reality? Will they become available for everyday use
within our lifetime?

Today's ride-sharing startups (Uber, Lyft, Sidecar, etc.), while very
disruptive in their own right, seem to be more of a bridge technology in the
big picture, like Netflix physically mailing DVDs to your house before
streaming got big, or maybe native apps vs. HTML5 (that's still TBD).

While Airbnb is disrupting the hotel/motel industry in a huge way, I question
whether ridesharing will ever get as big. I use Airbnb when I'm traveling or
on vacation, which is a few times a year. But rides are something people need
ALL THE TIME every day, and I'd rather own a (driver-less) car than have to
ask a random stranger for a ride every time I need one.

~~~
dublinben
In my mind, the benefit of a driverless car is that you don't need to own one.
You can just pay for the right to use one at any given time, then never worry
about it otherwise.

~~~
pshin45
Yeah I agree it's like the subway in that sense.

I just have trouble wrapping my mind around how a shared driver-less car
economy would work, especially when it comes to the role of government vs.
companies.

For example, who would maintain and repair all the cars? Who makes sure that
the interior of cars are kept clean and in working order? Would car design
become totally commoditized? Cars are a form of self-expression for many, what
will people do if all cars are shared and driver-less?

I'm not saying this to be cynical, I'm just genuinely curious how all this
might play out. When you think about how much time people would save and how
many industries would be changed or created, I think it's possible that
shared/public driver-less cars might be just as revolutionary as mobile
devices and the internet, or at least in the same ballpark.

~~~
pjbrunet
I think the only way it'll work is if you build a new city from scratch where
driving is prohibited. Like Hotel California, you can drive in but you can
never drive out ;-)

------
tokenadult
From the article: "It’s harder to get a license. From 1996 to 2006, every
state enacted graduated driving laws that make it more cumbersome for young
people to get licenses. 'Young people must now take more behind-the-wheel
training (which is more expensive), fulfill additional requirements for
permits, and once they are allowed to drive, they are often restricted to
driving in the daytime without passengers.'"

That's at least part of it, although the article notes that the percentage
change in young people without driver licenses is only from 21 percent in 2001
to 26 percent recently. My oldest son is plenty old enough to drive, and
making enough money to get driver training and make payments on a car (he has
no student debt), but he lives in New York City, so he has little occasion to
drive. He's probably more used to using public transportation in general than
many Americans because we all used public transportation to get everywhere
when we lived overseas.

Our second son is also old enough to drive, and we will spring for his driving
lessons if he desires to take them. But he can get to and from high school and
many of his activities on foot (we live only a couple miles from the high
school) or by bicycle, and of course we offer him rides when he needs rides.
So he hasn't had much occasion to drive either.

On my part, as an aging Baby Boomer, I'm looking forward eagerly to the era of
self-driving cars, when I can ride but not drive, and eventually cease buying
vehicles, rather simply subscribing to a self-driving on-demand car service.

~~~
eropple
_> I'm looking forward eagerly to the era of self-driving cars, when I can
ride but not drive_

Yes. Yes please. As I said in a sibling comment to yours, I take the train
instead of driving because driving is boring and requires me to concentrate on
it. A self-driving car makes the five-hour trip to go see my parents a lot
more pleasant...

~~~
salmonellaeater
I used to be really excited by the possibility of driverless cars, but now I
think overall they're going to be a wash. They will likely have significant
downsides: they make traveling long distance less onerous, so sprawl will
increase. They'll likely increase the total miles driven. If we want more
compact cities and less pollution, with driverless cars we'd need measures to
decrease driving above and beyond what we'd need today.

------
protomyth
I would say "It’s harder to get a license." is a biggie. We are now treating
anyone under 18 as a criminal with stupid restrictions. This continued pushing
of the age of responsibility happens in a lot of our lives and I don't think
it is improving anything.

------
impendia
Not driving is cool (which I'm not sure it was twenty years ago). Not owning a
car is a point of pride for many people I met -- certainly in San Francisco
and Madison but also in less likely places.

------
eropple
For me, it's really just boredom. I lived about twenty miles from Boston until
a month or so ago and since moving to the South Shore the only times I've
driven my car was to go to Target the first week I was here and once more to
keep it happy.

Driving occupies my attention for no real benefit. If I'm sitting on the train
I can read, I can write some code, I look out the window without having to
worry about drifting off the road. The train is eighteen bucks a week (or $70
a month, but I don't go into Boston every week so I do a weekly pass) and I
live in a place where I can walk to the grocery store--why would I hop in the
car for anything?

------
bennesvig
Status for teens has transferred from owning a car to Instagram likes.

[http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-autos-teen-
dr...](http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-autos-teen-
driver-20130316-1,0,7422833.story)

~~~
trhtrsh
Switching from cars to transit is great.

But for all the suburban kids who are switching from "going out to see people"
to "staying home alone on the computer", I worry for their fate.

If they are hanging out with their neighbors instead of driving around town
aimlessly, I suppose it's not bad.

------
asynchronous13
Or maybe it's because driving sucks and more people are realizing there's
alternatives. I can afford a car, but I choose to live close to work and spend
my time and money on other things.

------
dspeyer
The real question is: why did Americans drive so much? Was it to have larger
houses+grounds? Was it to be further from poor neighborhoods? Was it about
signaling?

~~~
rogerbinns
A partial reason is zoning laws. Ever play SimCity and notice how an area can
be marked residential, commercial or industrial but never a combination?

This essentially forces people and their work to be in different areas, which
then means some form of transport between the two.

~~~
trhtrsh
It's funny (sad) that SimCity, which was created with an intentional
undercurrent of liberal manipulation public opinion regarding urban planning,
missed the boat so badly on that topic. It wasn't just an oversimplified game
mechanic.

~~~
rogerbinns
The cities always looked so unnatural to me. Then I visited the US for the
first and they looked like they had been lifted from the game!

------
jwilliams
I live in Melbourne, Australia -- where it's pretty easy to live without a car
(I don't have a car). The anecdotal reasons I see here are:

\- Definitely the preference for (usually inner-city) higher density areas,
which already have good, accessible transit. However, the root cause is these
areas are cool, rather than (just) specifically public transport.

\- Congestion means getting around the inner-city is a real drag in a car.
Parking is worse. This makes public transport an easier option. More often
than not, people are opting for bikes. I live in the CBD and commute to the
inner city. Bike is by far the quickest, public transport next and car a
distant third.

\- Explosion in the availability and convenience of car sharing.

\- Cost is an issue, but a lot of people I speak to just say it's a "hassle"
owning a car, rather than specifically the expense. Sustainable and
environmental issues crop up too.

\- An ongoing and persistent crack-down on drink-driving over the last 2
decades. Young people want to drink & are happy to take public transport to do
so.

------
zalew
4 hours ago: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5592371>

------
msutherl
I've never had a license and nor do most of my best friends. For your
curiosity, here are some factors I see:

• I grew up in a small town with environmentally conscious friends who chose
to bike in all weather because of their beliefs.

• As I've moved between metropolitan hipster-areas (i.e. Williamsburg), I've
found that same cultural attitude. Riding year round is a cool and a 'right'
thing to do.

• Since I've lived in metropolitan areas, driving is expensive and the
difficulty of parking makes it unattractive.

• I don't want to live anywhere that isn't walkable. Even Brooklyn was
unsatisfying in that regard. I'm trying Europe next.

• Getting a license seems relatively difficult, though it's probably easier
than I think it is.

• Most of my free time is spent on my computer or otherwise in my house,
learning and making.

• I'm not sure how expensive cars are, but I don't want to spend any extra
money.

• All of my friends who don't work in tech are just scraping by.

• Yeah, student loans.

------
ignostic
The second graph should start at 0. It gives the illusion that the change has
been more drastic than it was.

Personally I don't drive because I can't really afford a car, and with new
services like Zipcar I no longer need my own vehicle.

------
morgante
I'm pretty sure increased urbanization accounts for a lot of it. Also, more
exposure to international communities where not driving is normal.

At least, that's my justification for never learning to drive.

~~~
enjo
I think this is really it. There has no question been a very marked migration
to urban centers by younger folks. We're all watching eagerly to see if
they'll stay in the cities once they reach their family years.

------
rprospero
Another point that might be US centric is cutting driver's education from the
school curriculum. Both my parents had driver's education provided to them by
their school while it wasn't even offered at mine.

------
ZeroCoin
"More younger people are living in transit-oriented areas."

I presume this fact, along with "The recession" are the two most important
deciding factors when it comes to the reasoning behind OPs question.

------
dcw303
I left Sydney for Tokyo. One of the biggest draws for me was the public
transport system. I can't imagine going back to a life where I have to spend a
significant chunk of my time doing such a mundane and frustrating task. I
haven't lived in a US city, but if the traffic is anything like Sydney, I can
certainly understand the appeal of ditching that.

------
pjbrunet
Intersection cameras, Police hiding in bushes and behind rocks, crooked towns
that give tickets even if you drive the speed limit, trying to find parking
where you won't get towed. Owning a car is like owning a business, everybody
wants a piece of the action.

------
zzleeper
I have the feeling cash for clunkers may also have contributed quite a bit.
Young people are much more likely to buy used cars, so by destroying the stock
of used/cheap cars, you are pricing the car away from them.

~~~
eropple
In most places, there are _plenty_ of used cars out there if you're looking.

------
D9u
I'm sight impaired. You don't want me driving...

~~~
Mz
Ditto that (though I'm not _young_ , I am also not _that_ old).

------
nextstep
Again, San Francisco lags behind the big trend-setting cities in the US.

~~~
swang
What does this even mean? There is no mention of SF at all in the article.

------
yekko
Because they can't afford it anymore.

------
beatpanda
Who cares? Can't we just be grateful? Cars do extreme, measurable harm to
society and we're all better off without them.

------
Mz
I have two ASD sons. Neither drives. They are in their twenties. The last
figure I saw suggested that autism is now about 1 in 150 kids. I wonder how
much that factors in.

Edit: Dead reply indicates a more recent figure is 1 in 88. (Just trying to
share with the folks not wearing their "I see dead people" goggles cuz I used
to not wear them either.)

~~~
fennecfoxen
Given that you're looking at a number of 1 in 150 kids and we're looking at a
drop of of ~35 per 150 miles... I'd say ... prrrrrroooobably not a big part of
that number.

~~~
Mz
Eh, maybe, maybe not. Someone replied, suggesting 1 in 88 is a more accurate
figure. Ballpark rounding and all, that's nearly 2 in 150. If it accounts for
2-ish miles of that 35 out of 150, that's in the neighborhood of 5%. That
sounds like a lot to me for a single condition. Quite a lot.

~~~
fennecfoxen
1 in 150 is consistent with what Wikipedia said (6 in 1000). As we all know,
Wikipedia KNOWS EVERYTHING and is NEVER WRONG.

 _cough_

As other people have commented, it's also unclear to what extent this
represents increased diagnosis or actually increased levels of the condition;
to the extent that it is the former, it's not clear what amount of driving-
reduction that translates to. Finally, it's worth noting that there's a 20+
year lag between the conception of a kid who will have an autistic spectrum
disorder someday and the day when he or she will be in the twenty-somethings
statistical bucket; I'm not sure how that maps onto proposed increases in the
incidence of autistic spectrum disorders but we _are_ talking about
cohort-1996 and earlier so insofar as there has been an increase in the past
few years it's not relevant yet.

And even if it is 5%, and even if that is a lot given that it's a single
disorder, what of the rest of the statistic that's 19 times as big?

I'll just go out on a limb and guess that at least half of the change is
primarily related to economic circumstance and not incidence of some disease
or disorder.

~~~
Mz
As an environmental studies major, yeah, duh, I am sure the Hubbert Peak stuff
jacking up the price of gas is one of the primary causes. I wasn't suggesting
autism was a primary mover of numbers here. I am baffled by the essentially
hostile reaction it is getting for me to wonder out loud about that as a
factor though. Did curiosity get outlawed on Hacker News? My understanding was
that satisfying one's curiosity was a primary value here.

Sheesh.

------
13b9f227ecf0
I remember pretty much the same article about young Japanese but published
many years ago. Despite the thoughtful list I think the main thing is probably
the same in both cases: the younger generation is poorer than their
predecessors.

Younger Americans are also eating less meat. Do you want to spin some list to
explain, or just admit we're getting poorer?

~~~
ics
Interestingly, most Japanese people I know do have their licenses– but do not
drive. Money or access to a car isn't the issue either (disclaimer:
anecdotal), rather they just don't _want_ to drive. They all got their
licenses because they thought a non-driver ID was silly whether or not they
were ever going to drive. And that's _after_ going through the standard
Japanese driving school which, last time I asked someone, was around 35man
(~$3500) at Koyama.

I have yet to find any convincing reasons why this is, but at the very least
there are some obvious clues for the _average_ Japanese, including but not
limited to: much better public transportation, trains run consistently even in
very rural areas, density is high enough and Japan is small enough that
younger people don't find driving "worth it", and because walking/biking are
easy and encouraged. Biking on the sidewalk is illegal in NY– in Yokohama,
it's rare to see a cyclist anywhere _but_ the sidewalk.

As for the US, I have yet to see this trend of non-drivers. Living in the city
of course it's the norm not to drive, but coming from the country, everyone I
know is stilling willing to go through all the ropes to get their license and
whatever they can with wheels because it's about the closest thing to
independence you can get in such a rural area. Now I have noticed people being
less motivated to go places thanks to more efficient communication as was
mentioned above– Facebook obviously, but even before then AIM had just about
everyone and their grandmother. I will not be surprised if further down the
road there is a noticeable decline in the number of new drivers because of
this, but I haven't seen it just yet.

On the money point though, I do think it's a very good thing to bring up when
making the generational comparison. I don't really have much to say about it
except that when my parents' generation were teenagers, it seemed like
everyone could earn the money for a decent (read: popular, not super low-end)
car with just a summer job in the country. A suburban job was good enough to
enter the low-end muscle/sports car market for some uncles. The late
'80s/early '90s generation middle class on the other hand seemed to have two
options: take out loans or lease a nice car for your child and hope that they
don't wreck it (or beef up your insurance if they do, I suppose) OR, as I'm
much more accustomed to, peruse the classifieds until that prized low-mileage
foreign auto from past decades finally hits that sweet spot of under $5000 /
less than 1sq meter of rust.

...All that being said, there's definitely something to be said for the fact
that these days freedom isn't measured in miles attainable, but rather in how
much ingenuity, computing power, and free bytes (¡OSS!) you have.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
> Biking on the sidewalk is illegal in NY– in Yokohama, it's rare to see a
> cyclist anywhere but the sidewalk.

Japan is like Germany in that cyclists are supposed to use the sidewalk and
not the street (which I believe is actually illegal). I actually prefer using
the street as cars don't get in my way as much as pedestrians do. But the city
I live in now (Beijing), it doesn't matter, both cars, bikes, and pedestrians
use the streets, sidewalks, bike lanes....suffice it to say I don't bike but
rollerblade on the street instead.

