
Microsoft doesn't even test Bing in Internet Explorer. Lord help us.  - mk
http://garry.posterous.com/microsoft-doesnt-even-test-bing-in-internet-e
======
jsankey
Sure, it's a bit of fun to point out an IE error visiting Bing. But the title
of this post, and the uncalled-for leap to generic Microsoft bashing are
pretty pathetic. The first comment (from a Microsoft employee) rightly calls
the author out on this nonsense.

~~~
mmastrac
Give the guy a break. He (like the rest of us in web development) spends hours
on end debugging obscure issues in IE, _after_ we just spent hours making it
work across Firefox and Webkit. Considering the size of Posterous, he's
probably having to develop and test against IE6 daily. The Microsoft executive
named in the comments (Jeff Henshaw) is likewise fielding this sort of flak
daily.

I don't think it's fair to criticize a developer for venting frustration, but
then give a Microsoft executive a pass when he blows out at him like that the
same way in the comments of his blog.

~~~
jsankey
His frustration is understandable, and I'm certainly guilty of venting at
times too (after wrestling with one, or likely more, browsers!). But the fact
that it is understandable doesn't mean the title of the post is any less
nonsense. In my opinion the Microsoft employee is justified to point this out.

~~~
mmastrac
He would be fully justified if he calmly pointed it out, explained that the
headline was sensationalistic and inaccurate and left it at that. Instead, he
loses focus as he goes further, turning the reply into a flame:

"Meanwhile, I'll take my Posteri over to Tumblr. Maybe they have more maturity
when it comes to handling the occasional bug."

That's not a constructive way to handle criticism. There was a _great_
opportunity to take the high road here, but he ends up just tossing flames
back and the whole experience becomes a net-zero shouting match. Neither of
the participants in that exchange have the high moral ground here.

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terryjsmith
I'm sorry, but I've seen any number of scripts throw a JS error (especially an
"Object Expected" error). Maybe an element isn't there (someone missed an
if(el)), maybe an analytics service threw it, etc., etc. Microsoft does some
silly things, but I don't think not testing is one of them.

~~~
zaatar
That's correct; I can assure you that we absolutely are testing Bing ... is
there something you think we missed? Please feel free to call that out to my
attention, and I'm happy to dig deeper for you.

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julio_the_squid
I've noticed errors in IE 6 on Live.com and Bing, too. Silly that I spend all
this time making our sites work with IE6, and Microsoft themselves have tossed
it aside.

As for the general point, I couldn't agree more. I do think Microsoft has
intentionally impeded the progress of the open web. They made it clear with
the whole Netscape deal that shift away from desktop apps (i.e., win32)
towards a system where one can access programs and accomplish tasks equally
well on any desktop OS was something they sought to avoid. And why not? They
essentially had an obligation to their shareholders to preserve their
advantage.

One could see how their interests would be served by making web development
more difficult.

~~~
zaatar
Sorry, but Microsoft hasn't "tossed" IE6 aside. We still support and service
it, today. Would you prefer that someone who bought a shrink-wrapped copy of
Windows XP at Best Buy 6 years ago suddenly discovers that their
computer/browser stopped working as it should, simply because they chose not
to upgrade? Would you be happy if Toyota came by and said they refused to fix
your car since it was over 5 years old and your only way out was to upgrade?

Trust me, servicing IE comes at a phenomenal cost to us; nothing would make us
happier than to have to deal with a smaller matrix to deal with ...

~~~
CamperBob
_Would you prefer that someone who bought a shrink-wrapped copy of Windows XP
at Best Buy 6 years ago suddenly discovers that their computer/browser stopped
working as it should, simply because they chose not to upgrade?_

Yes.

 _Would you be happy if Toyota came by and said they refused to fix your car
since it was over 5 years old and your only way out was to upgrade?_

That is standard practice in many industries. At some point, maybe not in 5
years but more like 7-10, you will bring your Toyota to the dealership and
they'll explain that the part it needs is no longer available. Your options at
that point include using aftermarket or salvaged parts, likely installed by an
independent mechanic, or to get a new car. Life goes on.

~~~
fname
_That is standard practice in many industries. At some point, maybe not in 5
years but more like 7-10, you will bring your Toyota to the dealership and
they'll explain that the part it needs is no longer available. Your options at
that point include using aftermarket or salvaged parts, likely installed by an
independent mechanic, or to get a new car. Life goes on_

OK, how about a television analogy? Let's say you bought a television 5 years
ago, and come to find out that all the local cable and satellite providers
have started to only offer HDMI connections to connect your television to.
Chances are your 5 year old television doesn't support HDMI which would force
you to upgrade.

Beyond being frustrated that your TV is obsolete, you probably won't chose
those cable or satellite providers again in the future.

~~~
ratsbane
Don't forget the phase-out of analog TV and analog cell phones.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_television_transition>

------
jpcx01
Please remember Microsoft web developers are human, like you and I. Ask
around, they all HATE ie,much more than you could know. It's an embarassment
and joke inside the company.

The IE development team however are not human. They are monsters.

~~~
zaatar
Ouch :(

I certainly aren't human after having to deal with nasty comments on IEBlog
over the years ... and I guess now, unfortunately, even on news.yc ... I guess
I should be happy it hasn't deteriorated to death threats in here yet (like it
has at other places) :/

~~~
mmastrac
Given the level of effort it takes us as web developers to support IE, I don't
think you can fault people for expressing their frustration every once in a
while. IE _is_ the greatest source of dev-rage in web development. I
personally appreciate the level of attention that IE has been getting lately,
but we're still fighting with the old versions, waiting for them to drop off.

It's not fair at all to take it out on individuals on the IE team or do
something stupid like threaten physical violence (and I'd fully support
someone being called out for that), but letting people rant at your
organization as a whole keeps people sane. Leaving Posterous because a
designer finally hit a boiling point in frustration? That's just as bad.

FWIW, I can appreciate how hard it is to work on a team where you're fighting
both the legacy of your old products and the decades-old impression of
Microsoft as anti-web. Every version reduces the amount of frustration we
encounter and every version that drops off makes us all that much happier.
We're glad to see IE join the forefront of the browser race again. :)

~~~
fname
_I personally appreciate the level of attention that IE has been getting
lately, but we're still fighting with the old versions, waiting for them to
drop off_

You can't really fault Microsoft because IE6 has yet to drop off. To their
credit, Microsoft has made large strides in getting users to upgrade, but as
reported in the past a lot of corporate customers are unwilling to upgrade.
I'm sure a lot of people on the IE team would like to see IE6 die as much as
the rest of us.

~~~
mmastrac
It's hard not to fault 'them' (the organization, Microsoft) because it was the
years of inaction on the part of the executive that left IE6 as the foremost
release for so long. It's not the fault of the current IE team and possibly
the executives in the chain of command over the web clients, but it most
certainly _is_ the fault of the organization.

~~~
dangrossman
It's at least partly the fault of the US government that tried to dismantle
the company over developing a free browser. If it was your software company,
would you get right to work on the next version after that?

------
yesimahuman
This is kind of absurd. Scripts are throwing errors all the time on the
biggest of websites. The only people who notice them are the ones with their
debuggers enabled. This might not even be due to MS.

------
lmkg
Is this an error that the average user will see while using the site normally,
or is it a silent error that you will only see if you check your debugger? If
it's in the latter category, it's only a bug in a fairly academic sense. If
silent, meaningless JS errors are what it takes to make the site work across
browsers, I would not consider that a failure of testing. To the contrary,
it's efficient allocation of testing resources.

------
dannyr
I think Garry wrote this in frustration.

When somebody is frustrated, you forget that a company is run by people too.

I used to work for a company where the web site was too buggy. We (the
developers) want to make the site stable but are not given resources and time
by the management to do so. Our users were complaining and it was frustrating
for us because there was not much we can do.

Microsoft is not a machine that churns out software. You may not agree with
some of its practices but there are people in Microsoft that actually believe
that they are doing something good for the internet as a whole.

~~~
whimsy
Yeah, I think so too - the link is broken for me now

------
zaatar
Coincidentally, IE's Test Manager just posted on the IE Blog about how we've
been dealing with incoming bug reports/feedback during IE8 and IE9. I would
encourage everyone to read it, and submit pro-active, actionable bugs,
especially the Microsoft haters:
[http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/04/28/product-
feedback...](http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/04/28/product-feedback-
systems.aspx)

In addition, I remain always available to the news.yc community (see my
profile for my contact info) if you have IE issues to debug. Please don't
hesitate to drop me a line!

------
zmmmmm
All I could think while reading this was "what a sarcastic, snide jerk". He
sees one javascript error and not only concludes that MS does no testing of
Bing in IE, but decides to trumpet that "fact" on his personal blog. I think /
thought posterous was cool, but knowing someone so childish is in charge of it
sours it a bit.

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fname
can't reproduce on my end -- Win7, IE8. Fairly quick turnaround for a fix on
the MS side.

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ElbertF
The best part? Garry's page is throwing errors too.

<http://imgur.com/8afBE.png>

------
memoryfault
Is that a screenshot of IE7?

