
Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm - adarshr
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26870598
======
ealloc
Such a creature is called a "musimones", as I recently learned from reading
"Natural Magicks" by Porta, an endearingly incorrect popular science book from
1584. I quote his discussion of these creatures below. The rest of the book is
quite amusing.

[http://www.mindserpent.com/American_History/books/Porta/jpor...](http://www.mindserpent.com/American_History/books/Porta/jportac2.html)

\------------

There is a beast called "Musimones", gendered of a Goat and a Ram. Pliny says,
that in Spain, but especially in Corsica, there are beasts called Musimones
not much unlike to Sheep, which have Goats hair, but in other parts, Sheep;
the young ones which are gendered of them, coupling with Sheep, are called by
the Ancients, Umbri. Strabo calls them Musimones. But Albertus calls them
Musini or Musimones, which are gendered of a Goat and a Ram. I have heard that
in Rhetia, in Helvetian confines, there are generated certain beasts, which
are Goats in the hinder parts, but in the former parts, Sheep or Rams; but
they cannot live long, but commonly they die, as soon as they are born. And
that there the Rams being grown in years, are very strong and lustful, and so
often times meet with Goats, do run over them, and that the young ones which
wild Rams beget of tame Sheep, are color like the sire, and so is their breed
after them; and the wool of the first breed is shaggy, but in their after-
breed soft and tender.

~~~
Blahah
Just a slight correction: the musimones is the inverse sexual partnering - a
male sheep and a female goat (as specified in the text you quote). The
offspring of the hybrids referred to here as 'umbri' were also written about
by Wallace in his book, on the Theory of Natural Selection (expanding on ideas
he had at the same time Darwin was coming up with his theory of evolution):

\------------

 _" It has been long known to shepherds, though questioned by naturalists,
that the progeny of the cross between the sheep and goat is fertile. Breeds of
this mixed race are numerous in the north of Europe." Nothing appears to be
known of such hybrids either in Scandinavia or in Italy; but Professor
Giglioli of Florence has kindly given me some useful references to works in
which they are described. The following extract from his letter is very
interesting: "I need not tell you that there being such hybrids is now
generally accepted as a fact. Buffon (Supplements, tom. iii. p. 7, 1756)
obtained one such hybrid in 1751 and eight in 1752. Sanson (La Culture, vol.
vi. p. 372, 1865) mentions a case observed in the Vosges, France. Geoff. St.
Hilaire (Hist. Nat. Gén. des reg. org., vol. iii. p. 163) was the first to
mention, I believe, that in different parts of South America the ram is more
usually crossed with the she-goat than the sheep with the he-goat. The well-
known 'pellones' of Chile are produced by the second and third generation of
such hybrids (Gay, 'Hist, de Chile,' vol. i. p. 466, Agriculture, 1862).
Hybrids bred from goat and sheep are called 'chabin' in French, and 'cabruno'
in Spanish. In Chile such hybrids are called 'carneros lanudos'; their
breeding inter se appears to be not always successful, and often the original
cross has to be recommenced to obtain the proportion of three-eighths of he-
goat and five-eighths of sheep, or of three-eighths of ram and five-eighths of
she-goat; such being the reputed best hybrids._

[http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Darwinism_by_Alfred_Walla...](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Darwinism_by_Alfred_Wallace_1889.djvu/185)

------
logfromblammo
Better name it Swapfile, because clearly this system doesn't have enough ram.

~~~
mildtrepidation
This comment is perfect, in that it simultaneously gets my goat and pulls the
wool over my eyes.

------
geuis
How closely related are the two species. Hybrids between species of horses and
cats are common. Same for canines. But it didn't occur to me that wheels and
goats are that closely related

~~~
grey413
Goat and sheep lineages diverged approximately five to eight million years
ago[1]. For reference, human and gorilla lines diverged roughly six to eight
million years ago[2].

Also, different breeds of dogs are considered the same species (and likewise
with cats).

[1] [http://hal.archives-
ouvertes.fr/docs/00/89/44/91/PDF/hal-008...](http://hal.archives-
ouvertes.fr/docs/00/89/44/91/PDF/hal-00894491.pdf)

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics#Div...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics#Divergence_times_and_ancestral_effective_population_size)

~~~
giardini
Humans and gorillas? What about our ancestors and those of pigs? I found this
hypothesis fascinating:

"A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?"

[http://phys.org/news/2013-07-chimp-pig-hybrid-
humans.html](http://phys.org/news/2013-07-chimp-pig-hybrid-humans.html)

from the article:

" I asked McCarthy if he could give a date estimate for the hybridization
event, he said that there are a couple broad possibilities: (1) It might be
that hybridization between pigs and apes produced the earliest hominids
millions of years ago and that subsequent mating within this hybrid swarm
eventually led to the various hominid types and to modern humans; (2) separate
crosses between pigs and apes could have produced separate hominids (and
there's even a creepy possibility that hybridization might even still be
occurring in regions where Sus and Pan still seem to come into contact, like
Southern Sudan)."

~~~
Steuard
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. We've _done_ genetic
studies on humans and apes, and we share some huge fraction of our genome with
them (99%+, right?).

It's quite telling that in this era of abundant genetic data, this guy bases
all of his arguments on anatomical similarities and says nothing about
genetics. It's all but impossible that a link like what he's suggesting would
have been overlooked if pigs had made any significant contribution to the
human genome. (Just for example, we've got all sorts of estimates of species
divergence dates among primates based on genetic data that should have given
nonsensical results if there had been massive influxes of pig DNA in the
middle of that history.)

~~~
grey413
The champion of the theory attributes the lack of genomic similarity to
repeated back-crossing to one of the parent populations. To put it in other
words, the droplet of initial hybridization got diluted in the larger gene
pool, but the novel genes (and thus traits) remained and underwent selection.

That being said, diluted gene contribution is not the same thing as no gene
contribution. To even begin accepting such a theory I would require direct
genetic evidence showing considerable horizontal gene transfer between porcine
and hominid lines.

~~~
Steuard
I saw that claim in the article, yes. I'll admit that I don't know enough
about genetics to make strong claims here, but it doesn't sound remotely
plausible to me. He wants to simultaneously claim that 1) hominids got so much
porcine DNA that they have lots of substantial, recognizable anatomical
features as a result, and 2) hominids have so little porcine DNA that it's all
but invisible in our genetic code.

I'm not going to say that's impossible, but it sounds like one heck of a
stretch. Even just sitting here thinking about it, _most_ genetic inheritance
happens one full chromosome at a time. We clearly don't have any full pig
chromosomes, so to make this theory work you'd have to have a whole lot of
lucky recombination events (chromosomal crossover, etc.) that preserved _only_
the precise genes involved in all these "distinctive pig traits" and got rid
of the rest. So what's the selective effect that selects extraordinarily
strongly _for_ this random selection of pig-like anatomical traits but
_against_ all of the other pig genes that would have usually been linked to
them?

In short, this is a very extraordinary claim, and it requires equally
extraordinary evidence, especially given how remarkably consistent the known
genetic evidence has proven to be.

~~~
Houshalter
I don't see why it's that implausible. You are descended from almost every
single human being alive 1,000 years ago. Can you find any significant amount
of DNA contributed from only a single one of your ancestors?

What he is suggesting is that a single hybrid made it's way back into the
hominid population. It had children with other hominids, and those children
would have had half as much pig DNA. They had children with even less, and so
on. After awhile there would be almost nothing left of the pig ancestor. The
only genes that would survive such dilution would be ones that were
significantly selected for.

~~~
tlg
"You are descended from almost every single human being alive 1,000 years
ago."

If a generation is about 30 years then you will have close to 33 ancestors
lines in your family tree over those 1000 years. That makes 2^33 ancestors or
10 billion, that's impressive (well there is probably a large overlap)

~~~
lutusp
Yes, but remember the "bottleneck" from 70,000 years ago, when the human race
was nearly wiped out. At that time, because of a nuclear winter brought on by
a volcanic supereruption, there may have been fewer than 10,000 humans in the
entire world.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory)

So, based on that, we're descended from fewer people in the past than most
people realize. Another way to say it is that most of our ancestors were
cousins.

------
viraptor
> the farmer said he was not planning to send the geep for slaughter

I'm ignorant about most things farm-related, but maybe someone knows what
rules apply to meat coming from unusual mixes? I assume it's harmless to eat
it, but would it be legal to sell?

~~~
repsilat
My first thought was, "I hope it isn't sterile." If goat/sheep hybrids are
this rare then a fertile "bridge" (even in one direction) would be of some
scientific (and agricultural) interest.

Food is a distant second...

~~~
jnbiche
It's almost certainly sterile. Look at what happens to mules, and horses and
donkeys appear to have diverged closer in time than goats and sheep.

~~~
eropple
While mules are overwhelmingly sterile, I thought it was neat to learn that
there are instances of fertile female mules, though no male ones are on record
as having been fertile.

~~~
repsilat
With fertile female individuals I'm amazed (would be amazed if?) people
haven't made an effort to breed and maintain animals right along the spectrum
(or at least one half of it.)

~~~
eropple
There are only 60 known instances of fertile female mules in the last 500
years, according to Wikipedia, and they don't breed true - their offspring
appear phenotypically to be pure donkeys or pure horses.

------
lacero
I wonder what it tastes like. I love the taste of lamb but cannot stand the
taste (and smell!) of goat meat even though it's a delicacy where I'm from.

------
JshWright
Bizarrely enough, this article caused me to lose an argument with my sister-
in-law... Months ago she insisted such a hybrid would be called a 'geep.' I
agreed with the general idea, but felt it would be better if it were spelled
'gheep'...

For the record, I still think my spelling is better...

------
Revex
While I find this fascinating, it does seem a bit curious to post this in a
hacker forum. I was half way expecting to read that the farmer had been "bio-
hacking" trying to come up with a healthy hybrid.

~~~
api_or_ipa
"bio-hacking": is this what we call genetic engineering now?

~~~
Revex
Hacking != Engineering

~~~
mildtrepidation
Unless you go by recent popular usage, in which case every possible
interaction with anything that is not specifically laid out in that thing's
accompanying instruction manual is now considered "hacking." Case in point:
Life has no instructions, so people happily call almost anything "life
hacking."

------
dpeck
"Paddy Murphy"

theres no way this is real, right?

~~~
leoc
There's a Patrick Murphy on _this very thread_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7533877](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7533877)
, you insensitive clod. ;P

------
hasbeen
I hope people actually listen to the interview, some of the quoting can be
taken out of context. I'm from an Irish framing background, and wasa little
scared of the way this might be taken. I think it is worthy of hn, looking at
things from a difference prospective but i quietly hope it doesn't rank high.

------
lugg
All I could think was what does it taste like..

Seriously interesting though how closely related are the two species?

------
nickjamespdx
Proud parents. [http://thebentangle.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/goat-and-
she...](http://thebentangle.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/goat-and-sheep-
friends.png)

------
randallu
My understanding is that human-neanderthal interbreeding rarely resulted in
viable offspring (though some did, and is where blonde/ginger hair and blue
eyes come from in modern humans).

Is that similar here? Are there traits in modern goats or sheep that came from
the other?

~~~
nnq
...where do you have that "understanding" from?! Are there any actual
information about the 'Homo sapiens sapiens' <-> 'Homo sapiens
neanderthalensis' contact and relationship or are you just spreading someone's
wild guesses?

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
Most Europeans have Neanderthal genes.

[http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/04/neandertals-gave-
europe...](http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/04/neandertals-gave-europeans-
lipid.html)

------
eps
@lacero - you are hell-banned

~~~
dang
Lacero is not "hell-banned" or any other kind of banned. Lacero's comment came
from an IP that had been caught by a spam filter. I just unbanned the IP and
unkilled the relevant comments.

Please don't claim things on or about Hacker News that you can't possibly know
are true. Concerns about dead comments and anything else about HN can be sent
to hn@ycombinator.com.

Edit: I deleted things that were too harsh.

~~~
watsitbang
I guess we've just found out how we're going to be treated by the new
moderators.

eps was obviously trying to be helpful to lacero. If lacero was hell-banned,
he wouldn't know it to email you, would he? And for his trouble he gets this
mean reply from you.

~~~
dang
I try hard not to be mean. If you'd care to suggest how to improve my wording,
I'd be happy to. It's possible that my frustration after a year and a half of
reading such comments as eps's with no ability to reply to them leaked
through.

A better way for eps to help lacero, if that's all he or she wanted to do,
would have been to email and ask us to check why lacero's comment was dead. We
would have replied with a thank-you note saying what the reason was and that
we had restored all the comments in question. But it doesn't feel to me like
helping others is the only agenda going on with comments like eps's, which as
you may know are something of a cottage industry on HN.

How you're "going to be treated by the new moderators" is with as much
fairness and clarity as we can possibly muster, and willingness to correct our
mistakes.

~~~
ronaldx
> A better way for eps to help lacero, if that's all he or she wanted to do,
> would have been to email...

This is now understood, but you say it in a severe way - as though you think
it should have been obvious for eps to know this. You seem to be making an
assumption that, by not doing what you prefer, eps was deliberately acting
with negative intent.

From an outside point of view, it is very hard to understand how eps should
have known what your preference was (even after rechecking the Guidelines and
FAQ). As such, it is hard to understand that eps's intent was anything but
positive.

~~~
cptn_brittish
Is it in anyway possible to have automatic emails sent to people who have been
hellbanned?

~~~
dang
Many HN accounts don't have email addresses.

We would like to implement a better feedback mechanism for HN moderation, but
that's a long-term prospect.

------
jhprks
Goat and a sheep? that's disgusting... just totally inhumane for farmers to
allow something so horrible to happen... I'm really worried about the future
of the human society, what next? a dog and a cat? a human being and a
chimpanzee? bunch of perverted maniacs deface what it means to be human, to be
pure beings under name of Jesus Christ, we should all repent for our sins to
the lord and the savior who created us 6000 years ago.

~~~
hasbeen
Love it! I started to get pissed off at the beginning then as I read I started
to laugh out loud! As a farmer Ireland, I was really surprised to see this on
here. It was like taking a coffee break from work!

~~~
slagfart
Yeah! HN is too sensible and having just migrated from /. I want some
ignorance, indignation and quotes from Our Lord in the comments to warm up my
day.

Not even kidding! :D

