
Y Combinator Clone in Vienna, Austria launches - enki
http://beta.yeurope.net/
======
BitGeek
Man, I'm amazed at the bitching here... Someone's trying to help foster
startups in europe! The horror! There's no way it can be decent, right?
Jesus.....

Its not like the idea of doing early stage funding is that new, nor is the
idea of havign an application form new. Ok, so the questions may not be
original-- but that's flattery, its not like the YC form is a trade secret!

Getting startups together for a fixed period in a fixed place is relatively
new, and seems to be a YC idea. Ok, so what does it mean when others emulate
this? IT means they think its a good idea! How does this hurt YC?

YC is evangelizing a different approach to early stage funding. Now others are
emulating the idea-- there is no way in hell that this can be a bad thing!

This is called success!

Do y'all who were rejected by YC hate the fact that there are now other
options?

Or do you think that these people are going to steal all the "good" startups
from YC diminishing their pool?

~~~
pg
Possibly people were offended more by the plagiarism than the desire to fund
startups in Europe. It is a bit much calling the thing Y Europe, for example.
Seed funding doesn't _require_ your name begin with Y.

~~~
Sam_Odio
It also implies a collaboration with YC, which doesn't exist.

Regardless, I think it will be hard to fully replicate the YC model, because
it's unlikely these firms will generate the following YC has. This following
equates to attention, press, prestige and connections for all the new YC
companies.

Without all that, all you have is an angel investor. And there's nothing new
about that.

Really, when it comes down to it, this is just an enormous validation for
what's happening here. After all, "imitation is the best form of flattery."

~~~
jey
"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

Really, these guys aren't claiming to be YCombinator II. They're just
validating the model and wanting to do something similar in Europe. They
clearly state on their page "This site is inspired by, but not affiliated with
YCombinator."

The YCombinators should be flattered, and everyone who participates in YC can
give themselves a pat on the back for being funded by the original YC-style
firm. [Hm, that has a nice ring: "YC funding" vs "VC funding". I wonder if
that was intentional.]

Edit: Oh, now I see that they only added the disclaimer after a post in this
thread called them out on it...

~~~
create_account
You're right about the YC _idea_ of small amounts for seed funding.

But copying the name, the index page slideshow, the application form: isn't
that just out and out plaigarism?

~~~
randallsquared
If they're not claiming it's their work, I'd say it isn't plaigarism. (And
they don't appear to be, as of comment time).

------
Harj
The problem with this is that I can't see the people involved. Who are the
investors? What are their backgrounds? Why are they going to increase my
chances of success?

Replicating the YC seed funding model is fair game. What I find irritating
(and btw I'm very keen to see more European start ups funded so I'm not
outright attacking you for the sake of it) is that people replicate the easy
parts without putting the effort into the hard parts of YC.

Easy parts = Getting money and an application form

Hard parts = Getting high profile speakers every week to talk with founders,
putting together an investor day with the most high profile investors in the
world, providing real mentorship, creating a supportive community.

~~~
create_account
Connections with high profile investors?

That's why Kiko had to use eBay?

Ha!

~~~
pg
We did actually introduce Kiko to angels who invested in them. And Kiko didn't
sell because they were out of money, but because their users were draining
away.

~~~
create_account
But why weren't you able to introduce them to prospective buyers once they'd
decided to sell?

Isn't that where a well-connected investment firm adds value?

~~~
pg
The usual acquirers buy whole companies, including the programmers (which are
actually the main thing they want). They don't buy just software in asset
sales. So the fact that Justin and Emmett didn't want to keep working on the
calendar meant that a normal acquisition was out of the question.

------
enki
not a joke - tried to contact pg a few weeks ago already - emailed them again
- but running out of time - if we don't get applications now, we can't launch.
if pg says anything in that direction, we'll immediately take it down, and ask
people to resubmit new forms because we can't use them. the questions pg asks
are great, it just didn't feel sensical to try to reformulate them.

our differenciation is in how we implement it locally, not how we ask
questions - the questions just are the same everywhere in the world.

our local hacker club is what we think might make this work - we have a few
hundred people sharing knowledge and ideas here. we hope to build up
entrepreneurial knowledge and spirit around the metalab, and store it within
the collective memory of the people here.

~~~
whacked_new
I believe YC's program is quite revolutionary, both in terms of supporting
innovative businesses and also as an educational opportunity; I agree that
right now, they are probably the best model to follow, but copying the
application verbatim doesn't reflect well on your organization.

For example, do you have any other ideas you thought of applying with? One may
be something we've been waiting for. I'd be very surprised if at the first
time of execution, you are already so confident about your judgment of the
internet startup landscape. It's reasonable to assume that YC really has
things in mind. In this case, you are only waiting for things to come into
your mind.

If the YC method is good, people will learn from it, and it will flourish. But
seeing how yeurope does it right now, I will be wary.

~~~
enki
i know that this is a big problem, and does not reflect well on us.

we've had some failed startup attempts 4 years ago, e.g. in the area of social
sorting. we certainly can't provide the level of depth and experience pg has,
but we've been trying our best to learn for a long time now. we're talking to
lots of people in austria and throughout europe, and are trying to get more
people to support and make this work.

we have been working on getting things going fulltime for 4 years now, but the
situation is a lot harder in europe. once there are some successful startups
around, we hope to convince them to join the board. we just don't have any
people to look up to here, and got to bootstrap somehow.

we've been pretty busy in preparing the ground for this, both with our
hacklab, but also with contacts to all kinds of people who might help out with
this, private, corporate and political. we even founded an interest group for
startup founders (IG Startup), to lobby with politics, and are actively
discussing their ICT funding strategies with the respective politicians and
decision makers.

our hacklab launched one year ago, after 2 years of trying to finance it, and
has a few hundred users already. the problem is the financing option for
yeurope has just arisen half a week ago, and if we don't launch now - we might
never do it.

~~~
whacked_new
I second rms... but again, you shouldn't skimp on your website and your app,
in any way; it's your public face. If you want to tailor the program to local
apps, then it needs more thought. "We're looking for great people. We don't
care that much whether your idea is the best thing since sliced bread."

How in the world are you going to measure "great"? It's definitely _not_ going
to come through via just the 28 YC questions. They have a news site for what
it's worth. A monster hacker team that cannot come up with a sellable idea is
merely a great team of coders -- nothing but.

And why does politics need to be involved?

~~~
enki
well, these are tough questions. the answers to these questions heavily
involve european culture, so i'm having a really hard time accurately
portrying the situation. but i'll try my best to answer.

europe probably has just about as much cash, and as much education as the US.
but according to the aho group report (<http://ec.europa.eu/invest-in-
research/action/2006_ahogroup_en.htm),> named after the former finnish prime
minister esko aho, the ICT field, despite having some of the lowest initial
investment costs in all of high tech, is the most severly underdeveloped.

the reasons for this, he muses are both a lack of entrepreneurial spirit, and
a lack of funding in the pre-seed areas.

i'd like to believe the first point is not an absolute. we have great people
with the skills and desire to create cool applications. on the other hand you
can't just walk up to a rich friend here, who'll give you cash if your idea is
great. there are no rich friends, and even if you know one or two, they
haven't made their cash in a startup, or even in the off chance that they
have, they're a business guy. businesses are started by business people here.
if you want to start a business, you have no chance to get cash from someone
from your world, who has been on that path before.

so you're left with public funding, and public funding involves politics. but
public funding doesn't work for tech founders either - the lisbon goal of 3%
GDP for r&d; mostly goes into empty tech parks and research centers by big
corporations. incorporating a limited liability company here requires at least
17000 euros, with a liability of up to 34000 euros.

if you want to apply for any kind of funding, you require months of meeting
bureaucrats and writing applications - a different one for each place. these
people will tell you after months your projects are either not innovative, or
they won't work. but the budget is there, so people claim everything is
alright. then they fund projects by friends, or stupid things with avatars
running around in browser plugins.

the only places to get entrepreneurial information are bureaucrats. you're
very unlikely to know anyone who started his or her own tech business without
sheer luck and without their own money. there's no place to get advice, except
other people who are on the same path right now. you usually don't start
businesses before you've saved a significant amount of money and are probably
well beyond your 40s. also people will discourage you, because it is seen as
very risky.

we are adressing these problems both by creating non-profit community centers
where you're surrounded by like-minded people, and to which we invite people
we think of as insightful, and by actively lobbying for better legislation to
support startups, and by making access to initial cash easier. of the few
techie-founders we have here, most are single-founders, because it is really
hard to convince two friends to found with you if they can barely pay their
rent while studying and working at the same time.

for the argment about our capability to accurately judge the merit of the
applications i have to say: you're unfairly postulating that we're unskilled
because we have no huge successes to show yet. i have a hard time to counter
that argument right now, but trust me, we're working hard to do just that.

~~~
whacked_new
Thanks for the excellent response; it contrasts interestingly with the most
recent Global Competitiveness Report: (Finland 2nd, USA 6th)
<http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Competitiveness%20Report/index.htm>

I don't know the scene over there. But I'm guessing this is why Wikio got
12M(!) in funding?

To clarify, I'm definitely not calling you unskilled and am not qualified to
do so. I'm attacking your copying of a question that implies you have solid
experience in the field as a seed funding organization, operating like YC. I
don't even know their inner workings.

But public funding + politics + international applicants seems to entail a lot
more than seed funding + support. In another message
(<http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=15641)> you said work permits are
available if the idea is good enough. Do the politicians have a say in the
selection process?

I think your effort is great. Lots of people will be watching; I hope things
can go smoothly for you.

------
markovich
Hello Paul,

Your idea is interesting, but frankly, I don't get it. Your resume and your
website do not hint at your having the money to sponsor the groups. You do not
tell us how giving up a percentage of our companies is going to benefit us.
The money is small - I could work on the side and make that money every month.

What is not clear is this:

1\. Do you have the money for this? If so, from where? If a piece of software
needed additional funding after 6 months, would you be able to do this (like
pg put 50.000 in justin.tv)

2\. Do you have the marketing reach? Will affiliating myself with you give me
greater marketing strength?

3\. Do you have access to legal information and advice? Can you offer this to
your startups?

4\. Do you have any connections to Venture Capital? Do you _know_ about
venture capital, such as to give good or bad advice?

------
schmidp
I think it's a great Idea! I've been at Metalab quite a few times now and it's
a great place with great people.

Last friday they hosted the first "Startup Freitag" (Startup Friday) to bring
people interested in startups together. As Paul hasn't talked about YEurope on
friday, I guess some opportunities emerged from that first get togehter.

I'm eagerly awaiting the next one the 5th of May. I left the last one after a
great chat at about 3am (if I remember correctly).

While I do understand why people don't like the YEurope copycat from
YCombinator, I think the reasons why they did it is obvious: attention and
getting the message out fast. Most people interested in startups know about
YCombinator and most of them will asume YEurope is doing something similar.
(time might also have played a factor)

I personally know Paul and if you have a look at Metalab and on what he (and
the others) achieved there, I think it's a good point to have some trust in
YEurope.

Many will agree that one of the great values of YCombinator are connections
and bringing the right people together. That's exactly what the Metalab is
trying to do and has done really well so far.

(I first wrote that comment on TechCrunch and then copied it over here)

------
3KWA
Many people in Europe have been looking at what YCombinator is doing and how
they are doing things. There is no less creative and hacking talent in Europe
than in the States but certainly a lack of entrepreneurial spirit and the
infrastructures and environment favorable to the emergence of top notch
startups. Nevertheless it is well worth trying!

I tried to contact PG a few months ago on the subject of getting YCombinator
to participate one way or another in such a scheme in Europe with no success.
The YEurope rip-off does not reflect well indeed on such endeavors but you can
be sure that other will emerge and hopefully turn some ventures into
successes.

------
SwellJoe
What's wrong with this sentence:

"YCombinator Clone in Vienna, Austria launches!"

Hint: It's not in the first, second, third or sixth word.

You're missing at least 50% of the value of Y Combinator by being outside of a
startup center, probably more. Can a successful startup happen outside of the
Valley? Sure...but you're definitely hurting the chances of success by a
significant degree.

~~~
BitGeek
If %50 of the value of YC is the fact that they require startups to locate in
Boston or SF, then any startup who doesn't get into YC can get %60 of the
benefit by simply relocating.

Seriously, I hope that %50 of the "benefit" of YC is not moveing to an
expensive location where every resource you could need for a business is
constrained.

I've seen no evidence that locating outside of SF or MA reduces your chances
of success. (Though this is often claimed, of course.)

~~~
SwellJoe
"where every resource you could need for a business is constrained"

Every resource except:

Money. The Valley has money like you wouldn't believe. Everything worth
anything gets funded. If you can pull out a nice demo and sign on a few paying
customers, you will get money--more than enough to make up for the cost of
living.

People who understand what you're doing. There are dozens or hundreds of
"startup" attorneys here...and nowhere else. There are dozens or hundreds of
"startup" accountants here...and nowhere else. There are always events
happening that will bring you into contact with other entrepreneurs.

I've started a company outside of the valley (started in Houston and moved to
Austin, which is no slouch as far as technology goes) and I've started one in
the valley. The valley is better.

~~~
BitGeek
There's a lot of irony there, but I don't know how to make you see it.

------
brett
So that I have this straight: You've tried to copy YC's approach and website
as closely as possible down to featuring one of their startup's product in the
middle of your page and naming your yourself so as to suggest that you're
somehow affiliated and you are holding out hope that they're going to be happy
(or even just not upset) with this?

------
rms
Cool. They stole the application too, but I guess they can because doing so
didn't hurt Techstars at all. They stole it so badly that I wonder if it's a
joke.

"If one wanted to buy you three months in (March 2007), what's the lowest
offer you'd take?"

I wonder how long it will be before we see a clone in India/East Asia.

~~~
wordsthatendinq
I think it's kind of funny that everyone uses the same app. One of these days
someone will start a Princeton Review-like startup that submits the answers to
all organizations with one click.

btw, I don't know if it's just me but I don't know why people are so worked up
over these copycats. When the second university in the world was founded,
maybe people accused them of copying the first university, but in the long run
it's been good for mankind. Of course, if all the orgs want to talk amongst
each other and pay royalties to YC, that might also be interesting.

~~~
Goladus
People steal the Y Combinator app is because it's so good. You can't just
google and plug in the "right" answers.

Interpreting the responses is the skill that matters.

------
nige
great news! as founder of First Tuesday in Vienna in 1999 I was involved in a
lot of start up connections. the angel boerse here i2 might be useful, other
contacts are a "similar" space from Frequentis for related companies to have
incubator space, it was running in the 4th bez. and then there is Julie Meyer
running Ariadne with the desire to build a new europe
...<http://www.ariadnecapital.com/team_julie.htm> and others like
<http://www.discoverybeach.co.uk/> best regards, nigel

~~~
nige
whats the biggest problem in austria for startups as you see it?

------
nige
great news! as founder of First Tuesday in Vienna in 1999 I was involved in a
lot of start up connections. the angel boerse here i2 might be useful, other
contacts are a "similar" space from Frequentis for related companies to have
incubator space, it was running in the 4th bez. and then there is Julie Meyer
running Ariadne with the desire to build a new europe
...<http://www.ariadnecapital.com/team_julie.htm> and others like
<http://www.discoverybeach.co.uk/> best regards, nigel

~~~
nige
whats the biggest problem for startups in austria as you see it?

~~~
fmu
socialism, risk aversion, retarded labor laws, few adequate computer
programmers, tiny private equity market, most startup investors are not well-
connected outside their immediate environment thus add little value

------
ivan
At least something 50 kilometers away :) Alles gute Paul.

------
plusbryan
Did anyone notice they're ALSO using heysan's (a yc company) widget for their
homepage? That seems pretty classy to me.

------
furd
The bad news is that you have to move to Poland during the summer session.

~~~
usablecontent
The good news is that, last time I checked the map Vienna was in Austria...

~~~
pg
He's joking. He's saying that Poland is to Vienna as Massachusetts is to
Silicon Valley.

------
gibsonf1
Maybe YC should be getting some percentage?

~~~
enki
i wouldn't mind giving them percentage, or for that matter, even all of it -
we don't care about making money with it - i have my own startup running
already. what we want is to attract talent to austria, and make it possible
for locals to make the leap.

~~~
NonEUCitizen
re: attracting talent to austria, can you get work permits for non-EU
citizens?

~~~
enki
we have support by politicians - if the submission is good enough, this might
work - can't guarantee anything

