

HTML5 must not become the future of the web  - superduper
http://www.davidarno.org/2010/05/12/html-5-must-not-becom-the-future-of-the-web/

======
davnola
A misguided and confusing appeal based on misconceptions and untruths.

For example, the author suggests that separation of content from presentation
using HTML and CSS is not possible because the <em> tag is presentational. On
the contrary, emphasis is a semantic (in this instance).

The author claims HTML5 will take 12 years to become "fully adopted" when in
fact it will be finalized in 2012 and actual production usage is exploding in
growth.

HTML5 is apparently no good because it only adds "just a few tags".

HTML, CSS, and JS are best conceptualized as content, presentation, and
behaviour, but the author attempts to fit them together as model, view, and
controller.

JavaScript is, the author says, a "half-baked toy language that does not scale
well" that can never be improved because it is served as source-code to the
browser [?] and new versions must be backwards-compatible. Yes, backwards-
compatibility slows adoption of updated standards. But, the suggested
replacement is a "package-based" system (whatever that is) that can be "text
or binary". How does that solve the problem?

[Edit: typo]

~~~
megaman821
"""For example, the author suggests that separation of content from
presentation using HTML and CSS is not possible because the <em> tag is
presentational. On the contrary, emphasis is a semantic (in this instance)."""

That's the point where I said this guy is an idiot. What exactly does emphasis
look like? Bold and Italic are presentational, whereas <strong> and <em> are
semantic.

There is a kernel of truth in there as I often wish CSS let arrange elements
independent of the order they appear in the HTML doc.

~~~
ewjordan
_There is a kernel of truth in there as I often wish CSS let arrange elements
independent of the order they appear in the HTML doc._

...and that type of thing is probably the source of most of the discomfort
that the author feels with the way browser separation of duties happens, even
if he didn't express it very well: as general-purpose view frameworks go, CSS
is an _extraordinarily_ shitty specimen, completely unsuitable for many tasks
- every time you've ever had to alter a line of HTML to make your layout work
correctly, you've been staring straight at the heart of what is wrong with
CSS. Many things that should be handled exclusively within view code (and
would be in a sane project) end up leaking into many other parts of the
system. And that's even before you start dealing with browser
incompatibilities.

I'm not sure that there's any solution, though - yes, we all know it's a
terrible setup, but none of us can do anything about it at this point, so we
turn to libraries that try to shield us from the complexity. C'est la vie,
this is what happens when things evolve naturally under changing needs over a
long time...

------
alanh
> _So in conclusion, I really do hope that HTML5 isn’t to be the future of the
> web, for we will have missed a chance to really make the future web great if
> it turns out to be so._

This final sentence perfectly demonstrates the unfounded, poorly-written,
wordy wishful thinking of the entire article. Don’t waste your time.

\- - -

He also demonstrates an utter failure to grasp the HTML5 timeline, or why the
DOM matters, or that his "alternative" is nothing more or less than requiring
all browsers to support a theoretical open-source release of Java applets /
Silverlight / Flash / similar.

From one of the author's comments: "I do not see the canvas tag and flash as
doing essentially the same thing. Rendering text in a canvas tag would be an
odd thing to do for example." Ah! Precisely: one would have to add a shiv to
allow <canvas> text to be selected and copied, and it wouldn't quite work the
same as it would on the rest of the page; text would be anti-aliased
differently than system text; etc. Remind you of anything — Flash, perhaps?
He's arguing against himself here.

~~~
alanh
FWIW: The crazy font for the headings on <http://gowallatools.com/api/> are
done with JS & <canvas>. So it is quite possible to “do” text in Canvas, even
selection; but it’s clearly awkward (like Flash). Screenshot in Google Chrome
OS X: <http://skitch.com/alanhogan/dd8us/highlighting-canvas-text>

------
enomar
You lost me at _"Few people would argue that it (Javascript) is anything other
than a half-baked toy language that does not scale well."_

~~~
potatolicious
I actually choked on my coffee at that sentence, but I persevered. Another
gem:

> _"There is an alternative to serving up source code that works well in a
> growing number of situations, eg the JVM, CLR..."_

Really? I'm not sure how much more "big enterprise" we can get... and having
been writing a lot of JS as of late, and a _lot_ of past experience with C#...
doing the things you do with jQuery et al using C# would be a gigantic pain in
the ass and create a morass of completely incomprehensible, unmaintainable
code.

I've noticed something in this great big Flash vs. the World debate - the only
people defending Flash appear to be Flash developers, and the only real
motivation I've seen in the defense of Flash is self-preservation...

~~~
grayrest
As a long time js developer (started hacking serious js on the Mozilla XPFE in
2001) I'll defend flash for the platform consistency and for providing an
initial direction for the WHATWG efforts. I'll also note that Flex is more
polished as a platform than anything available in the DOM world. The closest
competitors in the thick client space are SproutCore and YUI3, neither of
which has a great selection of widgets.

Not that I'd start a new project in Flash/Flex, but let's be realistic here.

~~~
ebiester
There is ExtJS as well.

------
WiseWeasel
What a short-sighted rant. Of course it's easier to create Flash content than
HTML5; it's been around a lot longer. Then, content creation tools will start
supporting HTML5, like how Adobe Flash CS5 now exports to HTML5 Canvas, and
all that will be forgotten, as it'll just be an extra menu option to choose to
be enabled. No need for these Flash "developers" to get their panties in a
twist. It'll only hurt a bit.

------
Supermighty
> //HTML5 by itself offers very little as it simply defines a few new tags. //

He forgot that HTML5 now defines, in detail, error handling, and adds new APIs
for interaction with javascript. Or maybe he's ignoring them. Doesn't sound
like he much cares for javascript.

------
Hovertruck
"In practice this separation of concerns is a prestidigitation, as – for
example – HTML tags such as <EM> form part of the view, for they define
appearance and a simple HTML page can form the entire view if one chooses."

Wrong. This is what we Web Standards nerds are talking about when we say
semantic markup. This is why we stress the use of <em> over <i>.

The <em> tag means emphasis. A word of importance that needs to be stressed.
It has a default style that is italicized, in the same way that <ul>s have
default list-style definitions. The <em> is easily styled through CSS just
like any other tag.

------
nnash
> _[...] from the perspective of a web developer, Flash is a true joy to
> develop with compared with HTML, CSS and JavaScript, so their argument is
> tempered by the ugly technologies they promote._

Haha, ok.

------
bradgessler
The subtitle of this guys blog is "random utterances." This article lives up
to that promise.

------
robotron
No

------
drivebyacct
I love that almost every comment here has already encapsulated all of my
frustration at the content on this article.

Thank God because that was a trainwreck and I found my neck hurting after
reading from all the head shaking I was doing...

------
Detrus
I agree about the larger point that limiting the web to one language is a bad
idea.

There is a serious effort by Google
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1341340> to alleviate this issue. With
NPAPI that allows plenty of access to the browser, instead of current plugin
islands, NaCl could be an excellent option. Not to mention, NaCl has the
performance of desktop apps, it erases web vs desktop differences.

Hopefully it will also erase browsers, just as browsers largely erased old
operating systems.

