
Why I Quit Tech and Became a Therapist - Glench
http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/
======
ben7799
Maybe too many people are trying to find all their meaning in life through
their work. It's not a recipe for success for most people, I think the media
plays it up a bit too much. They're only covering the success stories in terms
of people who are single minded and who make their work everything.

The author of the article doesn't mention any relationships or other interests
in life, no passion for anything but work. Maybe that wasn't the case but you
can't tell from the article.

Lots of people do something in the arts, music, physical fitness, etc.. on the
side along with family & relationships or faith/religion to find meaning. If
you're happy from that aspect work becomes just something you do to pay the
bills. It doesn't mean you're not passionate about work but the other things
can make up for times when work isn't so great.

~~~
genezeta
> Maybe too many people are trying to find all their meaning in life through
> their work.

You probably shouldn't make your "meaning in life" reside completely in your
work. But then again, you can't work at a job that is completely meaningless
to you.

The problem with burnout generally comes from the feeling of pointlessness.
And IT excels at that feeling. _We_ 've built an industry that is accustomed
-almost to the point of being a fraud to society- to such things as:

\- Extremely low productivity in the large. While workers may be fully
occupied, and even over-worked sometimes, in the large, a lot of productivity
is simply wasted in projects which never take off, are discarded, scratched,
changed, etc.

\- Low accountability. Current trends like #NoEstimates #NoTesting
#NoProductOwners etc, while may or may not have valid points all lead to a
larger #NoAccountability "ideal" where developers seem to want no
accountability at all for whatever they do. Not having any responsibilities in
what you do is actually _not_ the good idea some think it is.

\- The pervasive idea that it's all horrible but that's alright. That you
don't really need to know how to do stuff, you can just copy-paste it from SO
or whatever you find on Google. That programmers just don't know what they are
doing but haha I change this line here and it works and I don't know why but
it works and that's what matters so I'm going to sarcastically twit about it
because everyone will understand and concur. That everything could just crash
and burn in microseconds but that won't really happen, right?

\- The masterful move of claiming that anyone can program with just good will
and disposition. That a degree doesn't matter, that experience doesn't matter,
that actual knowledge is secondary to "passion".

All this ends up producing the result that a lot -most? probably so- of jobs
in the industry and a large part of every job in the industry is _mostly
pointless_ , or at least feels so. And this pointlessness in turn is what
produces the burnout.

And I don't really know, but I would tend to think that no matter how much
meaning you find _outside_ your job, if that job doesn't at least give you a
minimum meaning, you will have a very hard time fighting burnout.

~~~
NeoBasilisk
>you can't work at a job that is completely meaningless to you

You absolutely can, and millions of people do every day.

~~~
loganfrederick
But that's also probably why millions of people are psychologically miserable
all the time. The subset of people who are working a full-time completely
meaningless job (may not apply to part-time) and then finding happiness
outside of work entirely. There's plenty of gray in-between though (people
define 'meaningless' in their own way).

------
nabnob
I've been having the same existential crisis for a couple years now. I started
working at a FAANG company right out of college, then after a bunch of
personal health problems ended up taking a leave of absence that I didn't
return from.

I took a long break from software and started learning politics, philosophy,
and history, and eventually came to the conclusion that most of the world's
problems are social/political and won't be fixed by technology.

And in many ways, the type of work we do directly cause harm to people.
(Unfortunately, with the long gap in my career I need to build up work
experience before switching to anything else)

How can I continue to work at a corporation that directly causes wealth
inequality? Sure, I might personally enjoy working on math and software
related problems. But why is my own intellectual curiosity more important than
whether someone else gets to eat?

I don't want to just donate to charities, I want to end systemic problems that
lead to charities needing to exist in the first place.

~~~
danans
> But why is my own intellectual curiosity more important than whether someone
> else gets to eat?

It's not, but unless you are working on something that is directly
impoverishing someone to this point, then the economic or social system that
allows people to go hungry and without basics is more to blame than your
particular role.

People don't go hungry anymore due to lack of societal resources. It's due to
either a lack of sufficient collective concern, or even a belief that it is
largely acceptable that this occurs.

That the effect of your inequality inducing job is hunger for someone can only
be countered with policy and incentives that work at societal, not with
individual choices to disengage from jobs that optimize productivity.

It's similar to the fallacy of asking Warren Buffet to cut an additional check
to the IRS vs raising tax rates, or the fallacy of thinking that an
individual's choice not to eat meat has any meaningful effect on climate
change.

> I don't want to just donate to charities, I want to end systemic problems
> that lead to charities needing to exist in the first place.

This is actually a great way to think about it, and if you have the personal
means to pursue the systemic issues without having to worry about your own
survival, then go for it. But know that this will almost certainly involve
spurring on the collective human will to act towards that goal, not inventing
a technology as an individual that will fix the problem.

~~~
shrimp_emoji
And get downvoted when asking how it's ethical to allow a small fraction of
people to own unlimited wealth when 25% of Americans don't have clean tap
water. :3

~~~
rak00n
It's actually 63 million people, roughly 20%.

[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/08/14/63-million-
am...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/08/14/63-million-americans-
exposed-unsafe-drinking-water/564278001/)

~~~
xyzzyz
_As many as 63 million people — nearly a fifth of the United States — from
rural central California to the boroughs of New York City, were exposed to
potentially unsafe water more than once during the past decade, according to a
News21 investigation of 680,000 water quality and monitoring violations from
the Environmental Protection Agency._

I'd say that " _exposed_ to _potentially_ unsafe water more than _once_ during
the past _decade_ " is pretty far from "20% of Americans don't have clean tap
water". If anything, I'd rather say it's impressive that 80% of Americans
haven't been _exposed_ to _potentially_ unsafe water more than once in a
decade!

------
fb03
I knew there would be some relation with drugs in the text.

People who think psychedelic drugs (even Cannabis) are just about 'having fun'
or 'getting high' are skipping past the biggest ability these compounds have:
to make you change some already hardcoded aspects of your life.

Someone who isn't me started working out and eating properly after having an
epiphany on cannabis which prompted him to openly evaluate his relationship
with food. After seeing truly how he ate, it disgusted him. This person is now
50kg slimmer and away from obesity BMI.

~~~
thraway-burnout
Please congratulate that person on my behalf. Even though it may be the result
of an epiphany, self-restraint is still hard to achieve and a noble goal in
itself :-)

~~~
short_sells_poo
I'd like to prefix this as _anecdotal_ as it is only some speculation I've
done on the matter, but here is my take on it:

The brain is in the end a neural network, and like all such devices, can get
stuck in various local minima that are difficult to get out of. An old habit
that has been reinforced through many years can take a considerable "shock" to
dislodge. All the little cognitive and behavioral biases that one accumulates
through their life get in the way in very subtle forms that are entirely sub-
conscious.

What psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin and others can do, is remove or
downregulate these internal filters for some time. To give an example: the
visual cortex normally applies a filtering mechanism to what the eyes see and
correct problems. It acts as a common-sense filter to remove improbable or
impossible information and augment, perhaps even add some extra detail to save
the conscious part from being swamped with ridiculous data. Mostly it just
lets the sensory input through with little synthetic stuff. This means that
the visual cortex has to have some sort of model of reality that it builds
over time (with feedback from the consciousness). This filtering mechanism is
one way mostly, the visual cortex modulates the input and adds information
here and there, and then reinforces the internal model with feedback form the
consciousness.

Now, under psychedelics, one gets all the output that the visual cortex can
generate together with the actual real data from the eyes. The previously
subtle filter applies the full transformation described by the internal model
to the sensory data. This results in wacky outlandish shapes and impossible
landscapes as reality is modified fully with all the information that the
visual cortex has accumulated. Quite like the bizarre images generated by
artificial CNNs when ran backwards!

So to arrive at my point, I posit that psychedelics can (not guaranteed of
course), remove the long standing subconscious filters and biases that one has
built over their life and offer the raw perspective on things. They remove all
the useful illusions that the brain pulls over our eyes to get through our
days. A thing that one tends to lose during a "trip" is control over the
thought process, some call it ego death, a profound sensation of being able to
observe one's thoughts from outside - as if unburdened by one's own
insecurities and from an objective view. It isn't unpleasant at all, if
anything it is liberating. It is always difficult to face one's own
shortcomings, because of the importance that we place on the ego. Once that
burden is removed, it becomes an experience of resignation and healing.

I want to avoid ascribing religious or transcendental characteristics to the
process, far from it. It's a mere result of some very pleasant time spent
being free from the tyranny of the ego and the subsequent introspection.

~~~
lm28469
The problem is that we shouldn't feel the need to use drugs to make our lives
bearable. Depression, burnout and other mental issues is amplified by our
lifestyles and the system that allowed them.

Sure you can take psychedelics, anti depressant, alcohol, and other drugs to
make it bearable, it won't fix the underlying issue(s).

I agree with most of what you say on psychedelics, I don't see it as a cure to
what we're talking about here though.

~~~
short_sells_poo
I don't know why you are being downvoted (I upvoted you), because you are
raising a point that absolutely needs to be discussed.

Perhaps I phrased things incorrectly, but the idea behind using psychedelics
is not to suppress the symptoms, as is with classic anti-depressants. They
cannot do that. Rather to change the way one thinks in such a profound way
that they will voluntarily solve the root cause of the problems without being
intimidated by them.

Taking Prozac will make one completely numb to feelings, and the hope is that
since they no longer feel crippling depression, they can overcome whatever
difficulties are the root cause. I would describe it as depersonalizing the
individual completely so they become a robot. Psychedelics absolutely do not
do that. You remain a feeling, emotive being - more so if anything, but they
allow you to see your own thought process objectively.

I haven't studied the clinical usage of psychedelics, but my impression from
cursory research is that the approach is different from traditional anti-
depressants, and arguably more constructive path. Rather than numbing all
emotions using very biologically-addictive substances, use non-addictive
substances with very low abuse potential to make the conscious mind want to
fix the problem. Not because it is being forced to, but because they want to
heal. Often, part of this healing is a sort of resignation, or letting go,
where the emotional baggage is fully acknowledged and the pent up pressure can
be released. This is part of the therapeutic process, by removing the internal
filters, one cannot help but acknowledge and face these things and
interestingly enough, in a positive way.

E.g. a person who has problems with their weight will finally come to terms
with their body, which allows them to acknowledge the root cause and start
working on fixing it, now liberated from the suffocating feeling of "having
problems".

I don't know how to describe it better, and I realize I'm being incredibly un-
scientific, but perhaps you see what I mean?

------
sleepysysadmin
There is a severe workplace burnout problem in IT(especially MSPs); which when
not addressed grows into bigger mental health issues and even literal
sicknesses.

There just isn't enough skilled IT people. The industry is immature and is
bottom heavy. The top performers and seniors, are then overwhelmed with work
and the business is unable to hire more senior people to reduce workload. Then
the business keeps growing and eventually you get a death spiral of people
quitting and making the situation worse.

>I started asking myself questions like — "Even if the projects I'm doing
succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, how would it affect people?

IT is so inherently negative as well. In my last job 1 person and myself were
the only people trying to stay positive. The other people in the office had
succumb to the negativity and would even attack us for being 'mr happy'. They
were literally so negative that they just attacked positivity.

I had places where I would go onsite to resolve an emergency. I never caused
the outage, I was there to help. I would still get death threats from clients.
"The accounting files are the server, if you lost them I'm going to go to your
office and kill everyone." My employer wasn't even their IT, their IT person
quit upon discovered 2 drives dead on the raid 5 array and no backups.

~~~
pennaMan
>I had places where I would go onsite to resolve an emergency. I never caused
the outage, I was there to help. I would still get death threats from clients.
"The accounting files are the server, if you lost them I'm going to go to your
office and kill everyone."

Isn't that a criminal offence?

~~~
ovi256
Yeah, I can't see how a professional services company overlooks this casually,
unless they're really hurting for new work. Can you imagine a client treating
their tax lawyers or accountants like this ?

But then, if the service company needs the new business that bad, that's hard
to square with "there are not enough IT people".

~~~
sleepysysadmin
I report it, they told me "She wasnt serious"

~~~
tonyedgecombe
If it was me I'd report it to the police before management.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
People get worked up and over-react over dumb shit. It happens. Making a big
deal out of it does not do anything to improve the situation. I'm not wasting
everyone's time by calling the cops unless the threat is at least remotely
credible. I know that in this day and age of shunning responsibility being the
person willing to define "remotely credible" is not going to be popular but
whatever. Calling the cops when some stressed out person goes a little too far
isn't smart and doesn't improve safety. It's just ass covering that lets you
pat yourself on the back for "doing something". If you really want to address
the situation your best bet is probably to chew out whoever did it later after
they have cooled off.

As ethbro pointed out[1], criminal statutes have been interpreted such that a
non-credible thread does not usually fall within them. Cops generally don't
like it when you call them for non-criminal things. Honestly you're probably
best off asking whoever got threatened what they want to do rather than
optimizing for corporate ass covering.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19359233](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19359233)

~~~
gotocake
Are you qualified to assess threats for credibility? It’s actually a fairly
involved skillset, and unless you’re used to working with MOSAIC you might
want to leave it to people who are qualified.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
And the beat cop who was to take your statement is going to be more qualified?
They know even less of the details of the situation.

The only thing calling the cops does is make the prosecution's job easier in
the highly unlikely event that the threat does turn out to be credible.
Calling the cops doesn't actually protect you from anything in a situation
like this. I don't understand why people don't understand that. They take
statements and leave. On the off chance the prosecutor is feeling bored and
wants to pursue charges then yet more people's time is wasted and nothing
happens, maybe someone gets a fine.

~~~
dvtrn
Even as someone who is in some regards-but not all-annoyed with and frustrated
about the state of policing in America, this take is even too cynical for
_me_.

 _And the beat cop who was to take your statement is going to be more
qualified?_

Emphatically: yes.

Threat assessment is literally one of the things police departments are
trained on in some degree or another, and they have a pretty powerful
escalation path at their disposal when working to vet and take action on those
threats if deemed credible when someone says "I will come to your office and
kill you"\--if the situation warrants it (PNI).

You may not like the outcomes, but one's personal opinions on how effective an
investigation is doesn't preclude the constabulary from having much more
expertise in their ranks than a direct line supervisor at investigating a
threat to someone's life.

------
balabaster
Wow! Can I ever see some parallels with the inverse correlation of my own
inward search for meaning and my lack of contentment with life.

They say that happiness is found within, but the more time I spend looking
inward, the more and more sure I become that it's not.

Happiness, at least for me, is found in friendships and relationships, in
human connection. The search inward may lead to many profound and
philosophical insights, but so far, happiness has not been one of them.

~~~
onemoresoop
Happiness is overrated too. One needs to be content and aware first of all.
Friendships are great to have but most can't do without them because they're
truly afraid of being with themselves(e.g alone)

~~~
balabaster
I've spent much of my adult life feeling alone, if not physically, mentally. I
think this is common in careers where we're paid to spend our time thinking.
It's a hazard of our profession exacerbated by who many of us are as human
beings. We found ourselves in these careers precisely because of this trait,
our ability to think deeply about solutions to problems - which seems to be a
net side effect of our proclivity to spend our time weighed down in our own
thoughts.

I wouldn't knock those who fear being alone. Enduring being alone is mentally
and emotionally grueling - even if you don't shy away from it. If you're not
scared of it, then either you're one of the lucky few who are resilient to it
or you're not giving it the gravity it's due. Either way, I'm envious of you.

I have days where I feel like my only reason to live are my friends and
children. Without them I wouldn't even make it through the day. On those days,
I fear being alone. Not because I'd harm myself, but because I know that it's
the first step on a spiral into a depression I don't want to be consumed by
again. I fear it because I've been there on more than one occasion. I fear it
because I know how hard it is to drag yourself out of.

If you're not truly afraid of it, you've never been there.

~~~
drukenemo
I’ve moved to another country 10 years ago and had great difficulty rebuilding
my social life. After years agozining about my loneliness, I had an epiphany:
it was just a primitive fear (probably of survival), and once I confronted it
as a non-lethal threat, it lost its power and control over me.

It’s great to have good people around you, but if this fear is dominating you,
it will always be there tormenting you. My personal experience showed this
doesn’t have to be the case.

------
jeofken
For years I struggled to become financially independent (as Mr Money
Mustache). Years upon years of watching the clock until it hit 17:30, hating
the dumb coders who made a mess for me to clean up (because I know FP, and if
we had types these bugs wouldn’t be here in the first place!).

A year ago, I pulled the plug, and retired. Finally, I could work on my dream
project every day.

I did so for 6 months, and travelled, and had fun.

But the following six months were full of waking late, getting stoned
(sometimes waking and baking), having a liter beer a day (Germany), being
bored all day, and obviously falling into depression. Lounging around in long
johns waiting for the evening so a friend would be off work and meet for
dinner.

Then I answered a recruiter who contacted me about a job in a big boring
government office. A place with endless dumb scrum bullshit processes (wasn’t
it about having less process?), suits, good bye cakes, clueless managers, and
all what I earlier resented.

But without that I was depressed. So now I go to my boring government job with
a huge smile, and I honestly love the phony agile coach, coffee machine talk,
and coding up things the stakeholder wants. Legacy code - what a joyous load
to lift.

No one of my coworkers know I don’t have to be there, they just know me as the
smiling guy.

I don’t know what to spend my salary on - I guess I can invest more maybe? I
make sure to treat my friends to rounds at the bar, and concert tickets, and
pay for dinner with this girl I asked out.

I learned that it is good to have something to aim your bow at, and a place to
go every morning, and a heavy load to carry with your mates.

~~~
driverdan
A common problem with FIRE is that people don't have hobbies other than FIRE.
Once they retire they don't know what to do. Get some hobbies, try new things,
build something physical, volunteer with non-profits.

If I could stop working today I'd never be bored. I've taken two extended
periods of time off (6 months and 18 months) and both times the primary reason
for going back to work was money. I had plenty of things to do.

~~~
jeofken
That might be, but it wasn’t the case for me.

I play music, have some pretty cool coding projects, am self-studying science,
do sports, and have good friends. When this contract is up I’ll def take some
months off, maybe another half year. Would have never imagined the situation
to turn out like this for me, but apparently that’s the kind of guy I am. Born
a work horse, distressed with no heavy load to carry.

I just wish I knew this during my working time, so that I wouldn’t had been
such a resentful, selfish, prick.

~~~
influx
I know that one year I worked from home and hated it. I realized most of my
social interaction came from work. I wonder if volunteering or teaching part
time during the day might be a solution for you.

------
rlue
And from the other side of the aisle, "Why I Quit Being a Therapist":

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Fi32LbXHA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Fi32LbXHA)

~~~
Jimpulse
Wow thanks for the opposing perspective. Seems like even as a therapist you're
still fighting the system and still only able to treat the symptoms.

~~~
rlue
I imagine that OP has done his due diligence, but if it were me, I don't think
I'd handle the transition very well. Like any other branch of medicine,
psychiatric practice is tightly regulated, and operating outside the standards
of the professional community is strictly forbidden. That means that
innovation is no longer part of his job description, as that responsibility
falls principally to researchers.

In other words, OP has basically left his job as a developer (of software) to
be a sysadmin (of humans). Not to disparage the choice, or even remotely
suggest that it's the end of the road! Only to say that existential dread can
await you no matter what path you choose.

~~~
afterburner
> a sysadmin (of humans)

Lol, that's a terrible way of putting it. A sysadmin has a lot of power over
the systems they control. A therapist is like a consultant brought in to
evaluate, but with no actual power.

------
llamataboot
I have an MSW and quit therapy (though to be fair I was mostly doing policy-
level and community-level work, not individual counseling type work) to become
a programmer, but occasionally I think about going back. Good read, thanks!

I definitely think nearly anyone could benefit from therapy (and a lot of
people could benefit from a few strong psychedelic sessions where they are
willing to ask themselves what they really want to do with this one precious
and fleeting lifetime) and I applaud the courage it takes to listen deeply to
oneself and strike out on that path.

We could for sure benefit from a lot more humans asking deeply and honestly
"Does this make me deeply happy and what effects (if any) do I want my work to
have on other people's lives?"

------
duopixel
Congrats on the change in careers, Glen. My own journey follows a very similar
arc. For a rational person it's incredibly lonely: the spiritual community
often sees the rational mind as a hindrance into more subtle realms, and the
rational community sees the spiritual one as full of fluff and fantasy. It's
difficult to have a foot on each side.

We must understand that one does not invalidate the other, they belong to
different realms of being. An inner truth (i.e. everything happens for a
reason) does not invalidate an outer truth (i.e. everything that happens is
random). Being able to hold this paradox is an important developmental
milestone.

Another duality is the relationship between mind and body, and for mental
people bodywork is crucial to make emotional breakthroughs, but in my
experience most people dedicated to this don't understand where you're coming
from. Very little can be accomplished if the rational mind is the master at
all times, but at the same time it's guarding an emotional dam that should be
drained with caution.

Therapists who understand the tech industry and the rational mind are
desperately needed, most people who get into it are naturally empathetic and
operate from the heart, which is wonderful for therapy, but they can't relate
at all with the territory you're traversing when you're going through
transformation. The maze that you describe is completely foreign to them, and
even worse: very few people have navigated it successfully, it remains largely
unexplored and uncharted, so it requires infinite patience and lots of trial
and error.

------
mettamage
I'm so jealous he got to work with Bret Victor on Dynamicland! (in a positive
sense, I suppose envious is a better word)

I've met 2 types of computer science students at uni: (1) the ones that love
programming and love the mechanics of it. (2) The ones that love making music
or similar forms of media.

The reason the second type gets into computer science is because they love
media and they love it so much they're willing to go through the ordeal of
learning how to program in order to create it. In my experience, I like
programming, but _I love_ the end to end process of empathizing with the user,
designing the media/app and then implementing it.

It is these people that I call "Bret Victor" type of people. I'm one of them.

I am absolutely jealous. If anyone knows "Bret Victor" type of workplaces, let
me know.

~~~
charliepark
[https://notion.so](https://notion.so), in addition to being a really great
product, is the most Victor-ian company I’ve seen. Really great thinking and
product sense there.

------
agumonkey
I feel a lot like the author. Computers used to hold promises. But both
because understanding of society complexity and aging I have a lot less value
in them.

At first I thought, maybe I just need to make people use of computers happier,
but the average person doesn't care, they mostly fear computers and don't want
to learn but mostly have a vaguely workable tool to fill taxes or get mail.
While I'm at it, take a step back and see how much negativity is around
computers... privacy, encryption, it's insane.

Nowadays I'm much more interested in setting repair fablabs and planting trees
to make both landscape and people happier in simpler ways.

My interests in computing have shifted a bit, I mostly care about very broad
abstractions (say graph orderings and commutations or partial evaluation).

------
selune
Interesting. I quit psychology/counseling and work in tech now and the thought
of my work being absolutely meaningless gives me a lot of anxiety, I hope I'll
come to terms with it one day. Correction, _I 'm sure_ I'll come to terms with
it but the transition is far from being smooth and takes longer than I
expected.

~~~
chasd00
i really feel for people who drive themselves crazy over their work, its
impact, and their overall purpose. My poor wife struggles and suffers
constantly over these things year after year.

Maybe i'm just mentally handicapped in some way but i like to code and solve
business problems and so i'm a consultant who codes and solves business
problems. I've never thought about if my work is meaningful, it's impact
whether good or bad, or worried i'm not pursuing the true purpose of my life.
It just doesn't come to mind.

~~~
selune
You're not mentally handicapped, you're just in harmony with yourself which is
amazing and very rare. :)

I would advise your wife to try volunteering (for whatever cause she finds
important) if she hasn't already. I've started volunteering at a local NGO
after switching careers and it's easily my favorite time of the month, gives
me lots of energy and peace of mind, wish I could do it more often.

------
morningmoon
I applaud the author for sharing their life experience. Just sharing this may
help others.

I want to add that these choices aren't black and white. Tech and helping
people aren't mutually exclusive things. The author could have mixed therapy
with his tech experience and made websites, apps, or services that helped
people with career or relationship problems. Or worked towards getting an IT
job at a psychology non-profit. I know it's a simplistic example, but look at
the impact a simple app like Calm had on exposing people to meditation and
therapeutic techniques.

It's all connected. Nutrition, relationships, rest, play, and work. There's so
many opportunities to help people outside of paying a licensed therapist. One
way to look at it is to go where people are spending their time: on the phone.
We desperately need more wellness awareness where people are already spending
their attention.

------
jdlyga
Pushing everyone towards programming isn't what we should be doing. Sure, I
get a ton of satisfaction from building software, regardless if anyone uses
it. But people have different goals and drives in life, and there's no problem
pursuing that.

------
ourcat
I agree with the ever-growing sense of increasing meaninglessness of many of
the things that some of us have been working on in technology for over twenty
years.

It leaves you wondering : "why am I doing this?", "Is this who I want to be?".

So I can totally relate.

Thank you.

------
walmandurebu
I love to read these kind of stories, It's hard to quit everything in life and
pursue a new way of living. Not everybody has the guts to do it. I fall in
this group of people that are too afraid for the unknown and sit in the job
not seeing the point of it almost everyday.

~~~
ggggtez
I think what you'll find if you read more of these stories is that it's not
bravery that causes people to switch, it's fear.

Read it again.

~~~
valesco
I concur. I switched from law to programming out of fear of doing the boring
paperwork part of every project all my life, and wasting it.

------
jerkstate
I'm a tech worker but I have a network of friends who are therapists and
social workers. I hope OP realizes that therapy is a slog and many of your
clients won't get better. Self-care for therapists is even more important than
tech workers because you hear about terrible things day in and day out, and
your clients (and their families) can be downright abusive at times. Also, it
is much less financially lucrative than tech work. Internship lasts at least 2
years and many positions are unpaid or paid at essentially minimum wage, and
pay does not get a whole lot better until you are running a private practice
for wealthy clients (which depending on your opinions you might consider less
rewarding than helping needier people). So I hope the OP is realistic about
how this will impact their financial and emotional trajectory in life. All
that being said, the skills you learn in training are useful to any walk of
life. I frequently consult with these friends about how to deal with work
situations, child rearing, and they are able to give me really amazing
insights and help me navigate those situations. But just be honest with
yourself as you go through the process, and be thankful that you have a
lucrative fallback if needed.

------
wgloucester
At first I was hesitant to read this, as it sounded like the musings of yet
another software engineer who, upon attaining career success and financial
security, starts to become restless and chase vague goals like "happiness"
because now they're _too_ successful and there's nothing more for them to work
towards. It's one of those problems you have to be extremely fortunate to
have, and I can't relate to it at this point in my life. Actually reading to
the end, though, it sounds as though what he was really seeking was more along
the lines of spiritual fulfillment - and it sounds like he found it, through a
series of inquiries and experiments that don't necessarily align with what
society tells us we're supposed to find meaning in. Even for people not
experiencing the particular problem of existential ennui plaguing the socio-
economically privileged, I think this article has useful things to say about
how to figure out what to do with your life - especially if financial security
is a non-issue, whether because it's virtually guaranteed or because it's
extremely improbable no matter what path you choose.

------
subfay
OT: people often confuse being in tech with being an employed programmer. The
key is to code but not as an employee or contractor. Then, being in tech is a
joy.

------
faramarz
Glen, I really enjoyed reading this and found so many points of resonance with
my own story.

My recent trip to Thailand and practicing meditation with Buddhist monks,
getting one-on-one time with them to go deep until the lesson I needed to hear
presented it self, getting vulnerable with my partner and with myself.. all of
that along with my profound experience at a digital-detox adult retreat 3
years ago has put me on a path that is at odds with the corporate work that I
do at a bank. The interesting thing is, the quality of my work as a product
designer has dramatically improved, while my curiosity to explore music,
lighting and deep human engagements have given birth to a new personality I
call After 5, because it's after 5 pm where I deeply explore those
experimentations as i consciously observe a new alignment with my values.

This has re-surfaced something important for me that I now realize could be a
possible career stream. Thanks for writing about your experience and the
thought process, truly.

------
docker_up
There was another HN-posted article from a therapist on why he quit being a
therapist.

Found it:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18418022](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18418022)

The grass is always greener, as they say. I suspect that the OP will realize
that it's not the job that is causing this, but OP himself.

------
cafard
I don't think he did it so much from burnout, but Larry Constantine left tech
to become a therapist, then returned:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Constantine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Constantine)

------
glastra
I hope I'm wrong here, but I fear that the author is, in a way, just moving
the goalpost.

A dissatisfaction with one's work that manifests as some sort of "what I do
doesn't have meaning" or "what I do doesn't help anyone" is usually just an "I
don't do anything relevant in my spare time" that is looked at through the
wrong lens.

In a capitalist society, one should not rely on the same activity for both
sustenance and psychological well-being or fulfilment. As many have pointed
out before me, here and elsewhere, any hobby or similar activity stops being
enjoyable once it becomes your job, i.e. once you pay your bills with it.

Instead of trying to stretch our daily jobs to fit two different goals, I
believe we should, in fact, shrink our jobs so that they leave enough space
for different activities that try to tackle the lack of meaning or passion in
our lives: volunteering, cooking, making of art or just simply being there for
our loved ones.

In other words, instead of the "equate life worth to career, find out life has
no meaning, change career, equate life worth to new career" cycle, try the
"equate life worth to... well, life itself" for once.

------
gboudrias
Hey I'm doing the same thing!

We have little else in common though, mainly I just figured I really want to
help people and tech helps in such an abstract way it doesn't feel rewarding.
I do meditate though, so my own process isn't entirely devoid of spirituality.

Also, being from Canada, I find it really odd that you can just dive straight
into the master's degree and become a psychotherapist (I know this varies by
state though). I've had to start at the bottom again, it takes 7 years here in
Quebec. It's worth it just to know you're working toward you dream job, but
it's pretty awesome for you that you'll be done in only 4 years!

~~~
arandr0x
Where in Quebec are you located? I know a few psychologists here but nobody
who actually left tech for it, it sounds like an interesting combination of
skills.

~~~
gboudrias
Montreal. I'm not a therapist yet, and most people get rejected for the
doctorate, but I figure worst case I'll have a bachelor's degree in psychology
so with my programming experience I could look into AI companies.

Most likely I'll stay in the mental health field though, as I doubt I'll find
passion for anything tech again. I mostly lurk on this forum because I'm still
a geek at heart :)

~~~
earlyriser
I'm on the opposite track, but same location. I was an Educational
psychologist before moving to Canada/Quebec, but as my B.A. wasn't valid here,
then I started a career in tech.

------
michaelbuckbee
The worst burnout/depression I've had from software development has been
putting in years of time and effort only to have the project I'd been sweating
on fail/not be adopted/go under.

This is across the board, from a Fortune 100 company that decided to axe a
division to a well-financed startup that cratered to some of my own side
projects I couldn't quite get out the door.

It's just a gut punch to sit back and think: "If we'd done nothing we'd be in
a better spot right now than this project that turned out to be a waste of
time."

------
onekorg
I'm also on the same path, glad to see I'm not the only one.

Joined a FAANG after college, the good salary allowed me to start taking up
Gestalt Therapy training on the side.

This is one of best decisions I've made in my life, I can better allocate the
amount of fucks I give per day and live a happier life. I've been slowing
overcoming many paralyzing fears.

I don't plan to start working as a Therapist in the near future, but the
training itself has been life changing and would highly suggest to anyone
who's curious about self development.

------
dnprock
I find that in Western cultures, people suffer from over-thinking (maybe over-
banging). They get out of balance at some point. I recommend checking out Yin
Yang philosophy.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang)

It's about soft/hard, negative/positive. Reality is often grey instead of
black and white. Contradictions are everywhere. Sometimes, you take things
seriously. Sometimes, you let them go.

------
tomxor
> I started asking myself questions like — "Even if the projects I'm doing
> succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, how would it affect people?

If you only derive meaning from end results programming is probably not for
you. It's a craft that requires you to enjoy the process as much if not more
than the end result.

But if you want to get philosophical then the other thing about functional
information, just like any technology is that you usually cannot predict the
complete effect on society. If you create useful things that are at least not
intentionally malicious or dangerous, then you will likely be doing a net
good.

...The magnitude of this good can never accurately be predicted, however a
decent heuristic is how _general_ it is - e.g if you are making something as
contextually contrived as a shopping app to try and "help people keep track of
what they need to buy", your net good is going to be pretty fucking low, and I
know focusing on the smartphone app bubble tends to result in mindless crap
like this - so if you were doing that, then fair enough I'd quit too... On the
other hand - go make some contribution to a fundamentally new piece of code
solving a _real_ problem and the possibilities are much greater.

------
elliotec
I am proud of this person for finding such deep meaning in his life.

I also think it's possible that one can practice deep listening, use
psychedelics responsibly, and practice methods such as the Rosen Method (or
any other meditation-esque practices including yoga etc) without dedicating
their life fully to them, and receive magnificent benefits - including
prevention of burnout.

It may be his calling, but it seems burnout is a large motivator to this
decision as others have discussed.

I just wanted to come here to say I do the things he does regularly (but by no
means am I an expert), to a great degree of success and benefit, while keeping
a software job I love and not becoming a therapist. I have no signs of burnout
and I actually attribute that in large part to discovering similar "clues" as
discussed in the article, early on.

------
dccooper
Whereas I'm a therapist who's in tech...Goes both ways I guess.

------
baselined
I realized quickly in undergrad I could not program. This prompted the change
to psych and eventually a MS in Counseling Psych. Today I am licensed with a
small practice and work full-time in public education.

Even though I have so much more to learn, moving towards a humanistic approach
has had such a positive impact with clients and myself. Being able to sit back
and be with a feeling, no matter how uncomfortable, challenges me to think
about what is really the problem. This is beneficial in schools because it is
the same way with students and faculty because the surface emotion is only an
indicator something is wrong.

I think my curiosity to understand the human condition is what led me to study
and practice. At the same time, involving tech into my practice is necessary
to help indicate progress for clients in addition to how it can replace me
when out of session.

~~~
srednalfden
When you say you could not program - can you expand on How that manifested for
you personally?

------
jeffrallen
A slightly easier method to find out what you should be doing with your life
is to read "What Should I Do with My Life" by Po Bronson.
[https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/18813/what-
should-i...](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/18813/what-should-i-do-
with-my-life-by-po-bronson/9780375758980/)

------
coffeebean
IT is bottom-heavy, and seniors are leaving because they're either giving up
or retiring. More problematic is that a lot of senior level people are either
out of jobs, or can't move from the job they're in because the hiring focus
seems to be on the under-30 crowd.

~~~
Radim
In a mature market, the two extremes eventually balance out:

* Companies that hire only cheap starry-eyed love-my-latest-fad youngster crash and burn due to poor execution and short-sighted design choices.

* Companies that hire only experienced devs move along a less erratic path but burn way more on payroll.

You could argue the market is not mature though. Lots of turmoil all around,
lots of "dumb money".

In that atmosphere, "fund it & flip it & long-term be damned!" definitely
favours the cheap and fast. Horror stories of shitty systems and general lack
of accountability ensue… The price we pay for living in exciting times.

And senior devs better be mindful of _" The market can remain irrational
longer than you can remain solvent"_ (or alive).

------
fhennig
> Gradually, with Michael's help, I began to realize that my work wouldn't
> help people be happier in ways that felt meaningful to me.

Could you elaborate on you notion of meaningful happiness?

------
lotusko
Read the comments, do not know what to say, too much similarity, too many
possibilities, this is also a cognitive science process

------
ryanolsonx
Emacs M-x doctor?

------
ggggtez
tl;dr: burnout (+ woowoo + psychadelics)

To be honest, you didn't have to read the article to know it was going to be
burnout, because that's why _everyone_ quits tech and does something
completely different.

------
wccrawford
Correction: "Decided to become a therapist".

>Shortly after beginning my Hakomi training, I applied and was accepted to the
professional mental health counseling masters program at Lesley University in
Cambridge, Massachusetts, where I'm studying and training through 2020 to get
my licensure.

Going through schooling is not the same as becoming something. The title
implies that there was success found here, but so far it's just aspirations.

~~~
operakadabra
"Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important
than the outcome."

-Arthur Ashe

~~~
selune
The thing is that burnout among therapists is _real_ , everyone I know who
worked in counseling came with lots of, how shall I put it?, infatuation,
enchantment and everybody got severely disenchanted at some point.

So until the author has worked for a couple of years in the field, he comes
off as a little bit... naive. I don't mean to come off as condescending, I
hope he finds happiness in his new profession.

