
More than half of 18 to 29-year-olds in the US are living with parents - jocker12
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/more-than-half-of-18-to-29-year-olds-in-the-us-are-living-with-parents/ar-BB18Khdk?li=BBnb7Kz
======
PragmaticPulp
18 year olds and 29 year olds are worlds apart. Does anyone have these numbers
broken down by smaller age groups?

Given that universities are largely online only and dorms are closed, it’s not
surprising that large numbers of college age students would be moving home.
Including them with people in their late 20s muddies the waters.

~~~
baron816
How many 18 year olds graduate from high school and immediately get jobs which
allow them to move out on their own? Even though 30% of high school grads
don’t go to college, I imagine very few of those move out of their parents
house until at least a few years later.

~~~
jeffbee
That's new, though. It used to be that kids got out of high school and moved
into their own houses right away. Only about half of the people from my high
school class went to college. The other half went out and got jobs as oil
field welders or whatever and had bought houses by the age of 20.

I think it's a real problem for our future that there are now lots of adults
who have never lived to see a functioning housing market with plentiful
supply. Everyone under 30 thinks its normal that you have to save your salary
for 25 years to afford a down payment on a home. It isn't.

~~~
ramshorns
That functioning housing market might have been an anomaly, only lasting a
generation or two. Through history it may have been much more common for most
people to never be able to afford to own a home.

Anyway, growth is unsustainable: if housing keeps being a good investment for
long enough, sooner or later it becomes unaffordable.

I agree it's a real problem, and we may have to get creative looking for
solutions.

~~~
shuckles
The cost of housing is only closely coupled to the cost of land to the extent
you haven’t the technology to fit more units on the same lot. The value of
land should continue increasing indefinitely as it’s a function of local
amenity. Who benefits from the value of land is a deep question.

~~~
lotsofpulp
> The value of land should continue increasing indefinitely as it’s a function
> of local amenity.

Decrease in buying population and/or decrease in incomes of the buying
population would result in lower prices.

~~~
shuckles
High local incomes are an amenity included in the price of land.

------
opportune
Just to add another data point: I am currently working as a SWE at a large bay
area software company and I recently moved home with my parents to a low COL
area.

Not everybody is living with their parents due to economic hardship. I _could_
pay rent pretty much anywhere but chose to move in with my parents because I
saw an opportunity (from WFH) to spend time with them + my dad is sick. And
it's also nice that I'll save about $20-30k a year in living expenses, live in
a less dysfunctional region than the Bay Area (though with different problems
for sure), and have way more living space. I am pretty happy to not be
beholden to the racket that is renting in a hot metro area.

Yes, it's only possible because of Covid, but it's not forced or a negative
like these articles can make it seem. Anecdotally I know many other bay
area/large metro area software people who have done the same thing.

~~~
rconti
I happily lived with my parents while I worked a tech job from 18-21. I'm
almost 40 now, own a house, and am married. I won't "live with" my parents by
any real definition, but with more WFH flexibility, I will absolutely be
making the 7 hour drive to spend a week with them more often than I was able
to before.

My parents are awesome! And you only have so much time with them in this world
-- they're in their 70s and 80s and I'm happy to have the flexibility to spend
more time with them. I do make sure to get a covid test each time I visit,
though. (currently visiting an aunt and uncle out-of-state, after a covid test
and a 16 hour drive).

------
robofanatic
No problem until kids get married. Till then whats wrong with them staying
with the family? They can pay rent (less than the market rate) to parents and
manage expenses on their own. Its a total win-win situation. Stop shaming kids
or parents who do that.

~~~
austincheney
The problem with allowing children at home forever is a lack of forced
maturity. Why bother figuring out life as an adult when instead you can
continue to live carefree as a child? That is problematic in that it continues
to reinforce entitlements and expectations that are associated with dependence
and risk aversion without consideration for the costs and consequences
therein.

As somebody with a high school senior I am ready for my kid to enter the
world. It’s not that I want to get rid of her but instead as a responsible
parent I want to push in the controlled direction of accepting greater
independence and responsibility. In putting that stress upon my child, which
was a normal expectation 20 years ago, I am helping my child develop continued
maturity well beyond her peers.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I don’t see kids moving out at 18 and live in dorms become mature. Family is
the first classroom for real life. Perhaps there was a time when leaving home
meant getting real life experiences, but in this day and age...from school to
college to work, everyone is infantalised. Take for example, FAANG employees
who expect to be fed, clothed and expect to be ‘taken care’ of...this
generation is a complete failure. We are seeing it plainly during this covid
crisis. Absolutely helpless and have burnt bridges with family and community
in favour of cubicles. I am disappointed. All my tax dollars and hopes wasted
on an infant generation.

~~~
ido
I've heard American universities do a lot more hand holding than their
European counterparts (not sure how this manifests). When I went to uni (and
left home) it definitely helped me mature - I had to worry about cleaning,
buying groceries, feeding myself, doing laundry, etc.

I also had the freedom of nobody knowing or caring where I went and how late I
came home (=greater responsibility for planning my time).

But I understand what you mean - i had a childhood friend who went to a 2
years vocational school after highschool (during which he lived at home) and
then enlisted in the army for 4-5 years (in a non-combat technical role). I
suspect the army basically takes care of you when you live on base because
afterwards he moved back home & I got the feeling he pretty much stayed stuck
in a child role for years later (may be complicated by mental health issues).

I think never having had to really be completely responsible for himself held
him back.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Military breaks one down and the. rebuilds the person acc to specs. Very few
people have a self determined life after military service. It is sad.

Many in industry and service sector who are ‘company men’ and never quit their
first job until retirement also face the same problem. Double edged sword.

~~~
austincheney
As a military person myself this description does not apply to anyone I have
ever met.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
That makes you an unreliable narrator to opine on it.

~~~
austincheney
Then who is a reliable narrator?

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Someone who has married or has lived with or has employed or is an employee of
someone who was in the military etc. AND who hasn’t been in the military
themselves.

in other words, the objectivity has to come from someone who has been on the
receiving end without having been part of the system.

For example: If I am Indian and I have an accent. Whether it’s understandable
to Americans should be deemed by Americans. Not Indians.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Are you arguing that being in the military not only robs one of the ability to
live a "self-directed life", but also the ability to even recognize what that
is?

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I am saying that conformity And obeying orders is an essential attribute of
military training.

~~~
austincheney
That is a false stereotype attributed by people who have no access to the
military and no experience with it. In what job do you not follow orders?

If anything I am decidedly (perhaps obcessively) less conformist than most
developers I have worked with BECAUSE of my military experience.

------
in_cahoots
My best friend lived with her parents until she got married. She went to a no-
name college and became a teacher. I, along with my parents, spent 5 figures
on a prestigious university and PhD, and I now work in Silicon Valley. With
the money she saved on room and board she was able to put down a large down
payment on a 0.5-acre house with her husband in New England. Meanwhile I am
paying 5% interest on a jumbo loan. Who is the dummy here?

~~~
stfwn
I spoke to someone who started working in sheet piling when he was 16. This is
in the Netherlands, so plenty of that to go around. He stayed with his parents
and saved until he could buy a house out of pocket at 25. He was 30, said he
was saving to retire at 35. It blew my ‘educated’ mind.

~~~
bart__
I'm not quite sure how you can save enough money in 9 years (including 2 when
you need to go to high school) to save enough money to buy a house out of
pocket, even when you assume you don't buy anything for those years.

------
Alex3917
The problem is the previous generation ruined the housing market by building
rentals and McMansions. Typical sized families are most happy when they have
2400 - 2600 sq. feet of house, but most apartments on the market are less than
1,300 and most houses on the market are over 3,000.

~~~
Supermancho
This is a side-effect of the wealth inequity (re: mass closing of small
businesses) from almost 30 days ago.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24126128](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24126128)

My sentiment has not changed.

~~~
Fluid_Mechanics
I tend to agree, the cultural observations usually gloss over the more
impactful economic and geopolitical trends. Human behavior seems to be a
reflection of these larger forces.

------
iKevinShah
I have had this doubt for a very long time and I feel HN is the right place to
possibly get some non-defensive / non-trolls response to it.

I am an Indian and here (I'd say most of Asia) we have a very strong culture
of staying with parents, living together and everything. I mean unless
absolutely required , kids do not live separately.

What are your views on it, as a westerner? Except the financial angle.

~~~
socialdemocrat
One thing I noticed when hanging around Indian friends in the past is that a
lot of what they described as Indian culture has more to do with where a
country is in terms of development. A lot of things they called “Indian“ is
often just what it was in my country “Norway” during my grand parents
generation or earlier.

Staying with parents would be common here too in earlier times. A lot of
western individualism grew as society transformed economically and
technologically.

As people got a lot fewer children, and children perhaps had to move further
for work. Government had to start building out retirement homes as not all old
people would have children who could take care of them.

With more prosperity people also often want more independence and over time
welfare services get better built out to help both the young and old.

Over time your culture adapts to it. My mom would definitely not want to have
me hanging around for long periods of time. But she likes that I bring the
family over and stay in weekends and holidays.

I know from Indian friends that you seem way more comfortable about being
around a lot of people. As a Norwegian I hate being around too much people for
a long time. I need plenty of alone time to feel well.

But it can be too much. This COVID19 pandemic has been hard. I miss people
from work. My family. Just walking in a crowded street.

~~~
lotsofpulp
> With more prosperity people also often want more independence and over time
> welfare services get better built out to help both the young and old.

Yes, people will almost always choose freedom if they can afford it (including
parents who can take of themselves). Few would willingly choose to compromise
unless they have to, which is shown in data. The super rich Indian kids I know
live in flats in big cities by themselves.

------
eklavya
All I want to do is live with my parents in my hometown. That defines success
for me. I worked from home for 3.5 years in a previous job and because of
Covid I am getting to live with them again for last 6 months.

It could be a cultural thing but I don’t think anybody in the world can love
me as much as they do (possibly my wife and my sisters). Of course we fight at
times but that’s just like any other relationship.

I feel pity and anger when I hear of abusive parents here. If you didn’t want
a kid you shouldn’t have had one.

------
pmorici
Would be more interesting if they broke it down from 18-22 (college age) and
23-29 (working age). Not everyone goes to college but it seems like a lot of
this could be explained by kids living at home when their schools shut down
in-person classes. The way they present the data it is impossible to tell.

------
adolph
_Brent Cohen, executive director of Generation Progress, a research and
advocacy center for young people, believes working remotely was the main
cause._

 _' For those who were working remotely, this was likely a short-term move so
that they weren’t alone in their apartments when social distancing measures
were put in place,' Cohen said. _

_' But, what was expected by many to last two to four weeks, has now extended
for nearly six months.'_

------
WarOnPrivacy
I have 5 18-29 year olds living with me. Here's what we've learned.

Few companies will talk to you without a job history. Of those, ~0 will hire
you, if you lack average-to-above-average interview talent.

For the vast bulk of entry level jobs, hiring is done via web portal. Once
you've applied, you've applied. Try again a year later and they'll tell you
that you've already applied[1].

In most of the US, you can't reliably get to work without a vehicle. You can't
afford a vehicle (+ $300/mo insurance) without saving up months worth of
income.

If you have any physical limitation of any kind, just keep multipling the
above difficulties, until you reach your actual reality.

If you have a family member with limitations (eg: mental illness), you
probably ought to multiply as well.

[1] This held solid from well before 2010 until a few years ago. I've heard
some portals now allow reapplying, eventually. I haven't confirmed that tho.

------
oblib
My wife and have two of our children in the early 30s living with us. We're
still in the house they were raised in. It's really pretty nice. It's not like
we have to "parent" them, and we all know each other about a well as possible.

We're still in the house they grew up in so it's really so familiar that it's
not something my wife and I even think as being out of normal. It really
doesn't make any sense for them to be paying rent and we've got a pretty sweet
setup for hunkering down during this pandemic. We're surrounded by hard core
"preppers" here.

But really, it was pretty easy to see this kind of thing coming. It's not like
we're in a full blown disaster of epic movie proportions but I think it's fair
to say that it's been a lot easier on rural areas and families like where we
live than most cities.

We still can't know for sure but things might get tighter before they loosen
up and that is when "family" becomes important. It nice to have a "family
home" that we can all count on.

~~~
jseliger
Until recently normal people in their 30s owned a housing unit and had a
family of their own. That this seems difficult today says really bad things
about our society and the public policy influencing society. I'd put housing
policy at the top of the "bad public policy" list
[https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-
fut...](https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-future-in-
seattle-do-millennials-have-a-future-in-any-superstar-cities/) but there are
other reasonable candidates as well.

~~~
oblib
I agree. From the 80s on the focus on housing has been on "McMansions" and
we've ignored how that's really pretty wasteful and silly. We can do a lot
better than that.

We've seen a surge in "tiny homes" being designed but still not built at a
rate that's made a dent. And what we really need are smaller family homes that
are efficient and comfortable.

There are a lot of "Pre-fab" homes here where we live. Those are pretty cost
effective but they still don't have the appeal of craftsmen built home.

There are some really cool old homes built out of rock here (Ozark Giraffe
House). Most are pretty small by today's standards but they're great starter
homes for young couples.

~~~
bradlys
I don't think size of homes is the issue. Land is really expensive in the
areas that young people need to be in to get jobs.

------
zerobits
Apparently this isn’t a huge recent change —- it was at 47% of young adults at
the same time last year (now it’s 52%).

Source: [https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-
tank/2020/09/04/a-majority-...](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-
tank/2020/09/04/a-majority-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-live-with-their-parents-
for-the-first-time-since-the-great-
depression/ft_2020-09-04_livingwithparents_03/)

------
gumby
When I got married (me 26, spouse 23) my in laws assumed we would move in with
them and had been putting together plans to remodel the house to adapt it. Her
brother lived there until he married at 30, his wife with her parents until
same. This was Western Europe.

Many of my own relatives in India considered it sad that I had moved out
before marriage and that We didn’t get a home in the same neighbourhood as my
parents after marrying.

These kinds of arrangements would have driven me bananas (and would if me own
kid had to do it) but it’s pretty common.

------
atum47
well, I'm 35, do own my own apartment and I'm living with my parents. I don't
know if it's a south american thing but we're a very close with our families
over here. specially in this pandemic time it felt very natural to me to be
here with them. I do have a room seoarated from the main house, so its quite
good

------
ponker
I’m ~40 and my wife and three kids are living with my parents. With the
pandemic it was very isolated to be by ourselves and we could WFH anywhere so
are moving between my parents and my in-laws every few months. Kids are
getting lots of grandparent time and lots of unauthorized screen time.

~~~
phobosanomaly
In a time where more and more older people are feeling isolated, and kids are
cut off as well that's wonderful to give them an opportunity to enjoy spending
time with loved ones. Good for you guys.

------
thomasfl
There is a housing crisis. Birth rates will eventually go down. The real
estate market is ready to be disruptet with new walkable cities. Based on
modern human centered design on walkability, mixed use for businesses and
housibg, bike friendly cities.

~~~
burfog
Birth rates will go up because they are inheritable and because exponential
growth always wins. The USA will be Amish.

It's only a change in environment that can knock that down a bit, but
exponential growth still wins. Birth control cut the birth rate for most
people, but not for all. The resistant sub-populations are still on
exponential growth even as the other sub-populations go through a population
crash.

It's as certain as math. Exponential growth wins.

------
chasd00
I couch surfed for a couple summers in college and my wife full on lived in a
car for a while before we met. We never thought of moving back in with our
parents as an option. heh as soon as my little sister moved out my parents
moved into a very small house, there would have been no where to sleep anyway.

(I was born in '76 so sorta gen-x)

------
wayanon
I know an ex-Google ex-Facebook TechLead who will be nodding approvingly.

------
tyoma
Why is this surprising? Many colleges are online only or getting there after
COVID spikes post re-opening. Those students have nowhere else to go.

------
LockAndLol
How are these stats compared to the rest of the developed world? If I'm not
mistaken, this is quite normal for Italy and Greece.

------
2Gkashmiri
Serious question. Why does America have a fixation with moving out of your
parents home? Why does this headline make it sound like some bad thing. Oh
god!

~~~
scarface74
Completely honest, naive question. How do you have any type of real sex life
living at home and single? I moved out as soon as I graduated college because
I had a job four hours away.

~~~
phobosanomaly
I think it depends on whether you're living with them because of choice or
necessity.

If you're staying with them because of choice and you have a good job, just
get a hotel room or go stay at a B&B for the weekend or something.

If you're staying with them because you're broke, you just don't have sex,
unless you're the type who can sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo.

~~~
closeparen
Does that imply couples are only having a sex a few times a year on special
occasions? In American culture that's more of a hallmark of "well into
marriage" \- young couples are going at it all the time.

~~~
phobosanomaly
I worded it maybe a little weird in retrospect.

The implication was that if you have a decent job and live at home you will
generally be able to arrange something because of your access to cash. So you
can bankroll whatever solution will work with your s/o or casual encounter.

If you're broke and living at home, it may be more difficult to enter a
relationship or have a more casual encounter to begin with, let alone pay for
a bunch of hotel rooms or whatever.

So the first person can go at it all the time like you said, but the second
person is more limited.

~~~
bradlys
> The implication was that if you have a decent job and live at home you will
> generally be able to arrange something because of your access to cash. So
> you can bankroll whatever solution will work with your s/o or casual
> encounter.

I think this answer still implies you're having sex maybe once or twice a
month. Hotels aren't cheap and if you're paying for them more than a few times
a month, why even live at home?

For many American couples - having sex anywhere from once a week to multiple
times a day are all fairly common.

~~~
phobosanomaly
This is an interesting question. What is the point at which it's cheaper to
get horizontal in hotels (and save money by living with parents) versus
renting an apartment? Let's do some back-of-the-envelope.

From this Huffpo article they're throwing out $1,234.43 as the median rent for
a 1-bedroom apartment in a selection of American cities (kid gloves to begin
with - let's tackle SF rent later).

[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/heres-what-an-average-
apa_b_1...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/heres-what-an-average-
apa_b_10346298)

So what are hotel rooms going to run you? I just grabbed something off of
Expedia in SF for Wednesday night. Hotel Abri in Union Square $106. Seems not
too sketchy, and not too pricey. If your s/o is a little adventurous there's
always $60/night Motel 6 (bedbugs notwithstanding).

So, say you're having sex two nights per week (sure, not all the time, but
you're living with your parents so you're going to have to dial that libido
back a little bit - listening to them bug you about grandkids should do the
trick).

Let's estimate that with tax and everything you're blowing $250/week on hotel
rooms. That's $1,000/month.

Honestly you're right on that one. Cheaper to just get an apartment.

But wait! What if you're in SF? Median rent even with the 'rona is $3,280.
$3,280/$110 ~ 30x/month.

[https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/01/san-francisco-one-bedroom-
re...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/01/san-francisco-one-bedroom-rent-price-
drops-11point8percent-in-june-zumper.html)

So, that's motel sex like 30 times per month. If you're under that, it's just
money in the bank. So, maybe you and your s/o could think of it as every time
you don't have sex you're putting money away for a down payment? I'm sure that
won't have any weird long-term repercussions for your relationship.

That's one-sided savings. Say your s/o is pooling cash as well with a similar
fixed cost structure. Multiply savings by two.

~~~
bradlys
You're only looking at very cheap places though and I'd argue it's not going
to be a very exciting lifestyle. Those rates seem a bit low - to me. I'm used
to places charging $200+/night in the bay area. I'd hate to have to go through
a check-in process and what not just to sleep with someone! I'd not bother.
You're also not accounting for the fact that the children are "renting" a room
from their parents - not an apartment. So, you need to look up the median cost
of a room in SF. It's closer to $1200-2000/month. Back in the not worth living
with your parents money.

I think people who live with their parents probably just aren't having much
sex unless their respective partners don't live with their parents. And -
honestly - that's about what I've heard from people I know who live with their
parents. They might get laid but it's not happening at their parent's place
much at all.

Btw, there is no cost saving in this equation - the children are merely taking
advantage of their parent's wealth. Seems the privileged and celibate will
reap some weird financial rewards at some point... at the cost of not getting
laid and having a limited set of partners.

------
stjohnswarts
All that said it's not that bad 5% increase considering we're in the worst
depression since the Great Depression.

------
logicslave
The government printed massive amounts of money over the last 15 years, which
inflated financial assets. Now everyone who is younger cannot afford any of
those assets, housing included. The boomers risked the economy in the early
2000s, caused the crash in 2008, and then printed money to save themselves.
This has pushed younger generations into what is essentially financial
slavery.

~~~
nogabebop23
Hey, whatever you need to tell yourself to feel better. Yet somehow the
several generation between you and the boomers managed to make a go of it; how
did that happen? I employ a number of these new grads and pay a salary that
will more than pay for them to own a home in our market; how is this possible
in your alternative universe? Maybe before you throw the word slavery around
you should give some thought to what that actually means. HINT: it's a little
more harsh than living with your parents.

~~~
logicslave
I work as a software engineer at FAANG, I will retire young. Basically anyone
who is young that doesnt work as an engineer or didnt go to a top school is
completely shut out of decent housing near decent cities.

"Yet somehow the several generation between you and the boomers managed to
make a go of it; how did that happen?"

This argument makes zero sense. Was going to make a reply, but forget it

~~~
scarface74
There are a lot of “decent cities” where you can afford a decent apartment
working making $40K a year. Apartments in the burbs of Atlanta are around
$700-$800 a month.

~~~
chii
The thing is - those wages only give you a meagre living. You cannot enjoy the
finer things in life on a 40k salary.

The young people have been advertised to all their lives, and what would be
considered luxury goods (like an iphone X) is no longer considered luxury, but
a required accessory. What was considered, in the last half-century, a luxury
food is no longer considered luxury today. Just having bread and staples isn't
enough. And i don't blame them - being bombarded from a young age with
advertising and media messages telling you that your life "should" have such
and such, is making it harder and harder to live frugally.

~~~
scarface74
According to paycheckcity.com. $40K a year in Georgia is a monthly take home
of $2666 month single. I happen to know what living expenses are for a young
single person because of my older son.

His rent, utilities, car note and car insurance is around $1800 all in. At
least until he is 26 and can stay on my insurance.

The median household income in the US is only around $63000.

[https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-
percen...](https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/)

~~~
lotsofpulp
The median US household will never save enough to be able to comfortably
retire, nor will they have sufficient savings or insurance to be able to deal
with health issues or loss of income.

~~~
scarface74
Yet and still millions of ordinary Americans are retired today and living off
of mostly social security and not living on the street.

That average is a static snapshot. You would assume that as a person or
especially a couple get older, they would move up the income ladder.

~~~
logicslave
"Yet and still millions of ordinary Americans are retired today"

The whole point of the conversation is that younger generations will not be
like the ones retiring now

------
jelliclesfarm
What is wrong with this? Multi generational households function better than
nuclear families.

Disclosure : I grew up in a multi generational joint family with grandparents,
parents, uncles, aunts and cousins.

~~~
polartx
> I grew up in a multi generational joint family with grandparents, parents,
> uncles, aunts and cousins.

That sounds miserable, TBH

~~~
ido
Why, assuming there's enough space for all of them? My grandparents lived 5
minutes walk from my parents when I was a kid & my uncle lived nearby with his
family as well.

Altogether 6 adults and 7 kids. It was fine and if we lived in 3 adjacent
houses that would have probably only been better IMO.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Multi generational family units that are also homesteads will be the future.
Probably with robots and hydroponics rather than goats and hand weeding
between turnips.

------
booleandilemma
Isn’t this the norm in Asia and other parts of the world? Why is there such a
stigma in the US?

Doesn’t it help people save money?

~~~
phobosanomaly
It's an American thing.

Our national identity revolves around the idea of liberty and freedom, and we
mythologize the self-made person.

See the current debate over firearms. Same deal. Individual liberty versus the
good of the group.

It's not rational, but it is who we are.

------
atoav
The combination of world class military apartus/nuclear power, not being able
to collectively care for each other plus the feeling that parts of the nation
are on the brink of a civil war is really keeping my gears grinding.

Compared to pre-Trump times talking to an US citizen feels either like to
talking to someone in a delusional cult or like talking to someone who
realized the american dream they told themselves existed is utter nonsense
with no bearing in reality whatsoever.

~~~
beamatronic
You seem to be leaving out the group of Americans who worked hard, succeeded,
and improved their situation.

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hindsightbias
Failure to Launch premiered 6 months before Idiocracy.

