
Kodak shares up as it announces KODAKCoin cryptocurrency - robtaylor
https://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/Press_center/KODAK_and_WENN_Digital_Partner_to_Launch_Major_Blockchain_Initiative_and_Cryptocurrency/default.htm
======
viridian
>Utilizing blockchain technology, the KODAKOne platform will create an
encrypted, digital ledger of rights ownership for photographers to register
both new and archive work that they can then license within the platform. With
KODAKCoin, participating photographers are invited to take part in a new
economy for photography, receive payment for licensing their work immediately
upon sale, and for both professional and amateur photographers, sell their
work confidently on a secure blockchain platform.

There is no use case that KODAKCoin meets that other cyrptos don't, except
that it's owned in house by Kodak. I really hate this trend of companies
trying to create their own nonsense currency and then justifying it with
"blockchain is great!". If blockchain was the reason you could just transact
in almost any currency that isn't bitcoin (because fees). There's no new
technology here, it's just Kodak trying to ride the free money wave of
cryptocurrency speculation.

Pulling rights fees automatically could be accomplished via smart contracts,
and without the mess of 'debt' being involved.

~~~
mywittyname
> it's just Kodak trying to ride the free money wave of cryptocurrency
> speculation.

Our company made a massive push last year for developers to be "using
blockchain technology, now." No real direction as to what exactly needs to be
solved with it, just that we need to be seen using it.

This was before several months before the whole Long Island Blockchain fiasco.
Apparently, last year, "block chain experts" were meeting with CEOs of major
companies and explaining to them that the blockchain is going to change the
world and they need to start using the tech, lest they be forgotten.

Low-and-behold, six months later, there's a massive influx of companies
announcing blockchain technologies (that don't make any sense). Makes me wish
I asked who these "experts" were when I was told about it.

~~~
jacquesm
I keep seeing ´blockchain´ in proposals and start-up documents where the whole
thing has been dragged in by the hair and through the weirdest of reasonings
be made to seem like an integral part of the plan. It is a surefire way to end
in the wastebin, but as long as there is enough dumb money tracking these
projects I am afraid it will continue for a while to come.

~~~
ShabbosGoy
It’s the new buzzword. Blockchain has very specific technical use cases that
are not appropriate for networks where all participants know and trust each
other.

I’m more curious why alternative governance models are not achieving more
traction. The corporation as a way of governance is obsolete compared to a
DAO.

~~~
tim333
Count me sceptical. Traditional companies have been doing fine for more than a
thousand years. I'm not sure DAOs have managed to launch a single productive
enterprise. Given that companies are basically groups of people doing some
enterprise there is something to be said for them being able to meet in a room
and chat as opposed to the DAO model of semi anonymous crypto holders voting.

------
Spivak
Somebody was really rushed to publish this. I mean good lord the site they
link to [https://www.kodakcoin.com/](https://www.kodakcoin.com/) still has
lipsum and what I can only assume are placeholder photos. Unless Jan Denecke
really is a man of many faces.

Edit: Oh my god the background is an Adobe stock photo complete with
watermark.

Edit2: No, Kodak you don't get to just take the site down. The internet never
forgets. [https://imgur.com/a/LtI2s](https://imgur.com/a/LtI2s)

~~~
artmageddon
They must have some incredible cloning technology - the CEO, the COO, and the
CTO are all clones!!

~~~
kbutler
It's a storage optimization in the kodak photo technology - replacing one face
with another.

It's the next step beyond the Xerox photocopiers:
[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/06/xerox_copier_flaw_m...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/06/xerox_copier_flaw_means_dodgy_numbers_and_dangerous_designs/)

------
leejo
Something like this already exists:
[https://www.ascribe.io/](https://www.ascribe.io/) # I had to use it to submit
some photos to a call for work a couple of years ago. After the call I wanted
to delete the work, because I didn't want it hanging around in public view. Oh
look! You can't! Because It's blockchain!

Immutable history is not always a compelling requirement, in fact sometimes it
is at odds with many a use case.

~~~
Psilidae
This is what my criticism is, as well. A few days ago I had been pondering a
similar concept of a blockchain-based platform for tracking image ownership.
The main blocker I encountered while thinking about it was the problem of
immutability. Specifically, what happens if something is wrong?

Like, the first problem I see here is a troll just importing images from all
over the Internet and claiming ownership. If something like this happens,
would it be possible for the actual artist to ever regain "ownership"?

 _You really think someone would do that? Just go on the blockchain and tell
lies?_

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
If the photo was already on the internet in a server, there are already
records (like the Internet Archive) to verify that it had to have been created
prior. The blockchain only adds an additional proof, but can't revert some
past history that some other entity can verify actually happened.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Then why add the extra complexity of the blockchain at all?

------
EnFinlay
In some respects this seems like a better application of blockchain than a lot
of ICOs.

On the other hand, it isn't clear how they're going to solve the oracle
problem of deciding who has the canonical rights to a given photograph.

~~~
SkyMarshal
Without having read the details (I cbf) I assume Kodak is the sole oracle here
and the problem is solved by you trusting them to reliably provide accurate
data to the chain. Which technically negates the entire point of a blockchain
here, but it's a lot more sexy to be using a blockchain than a database.

------
alvern
I don't get the value in the ICO.

Photographer licenses image on KodakONE, receives KodakCOIN as payment.
KodakONE uses blockchain to sell and protect the image from theft down the
line. KodakONE uses lawyers to DMCA those who don't attribute or pay for the
image.

~~~
jhwang5
The same problem can be solved if they just used Ethereum

~~~
throwawayjava
The same problem can be solved if they just used a bit of PHP in 1995.

The killer feature is "lawyers armed with DMCA", not the crypto-themed CRUD
app.

~~~
jhwang5
Agreed. Essentially, a decentralized ledger does not give you the feature of
"enforcing copyrights" for free, unless you have systems built outside of the
ledger that does the enforcement. That piece can be built in the meat-world in
the form of "an army of lawyers".

~~~
throwawayjava
The idea of creating a single online market-place that does the
enforcement/rights management component in addition to storage/search/sale is
interesting.

But that's already a crowded marketplace, and it's not clear to me why Kodak
announcing they're going to enter a crowded marketplace would push their
stock. Especially given that the announcement is paired with an up-front
admission that they're accruing lots of useless technical debt at the
beginning of the project.

I would be _more_ inclined to invest in Kodak on the basis of this
announcement if it didn't mention cryptocurrency at all.

------
joeblau
Wow. Attach some Blockchain jargon to your product and get valuation pop. This
is getting slightly ridiculous.

~~~
SkyMarshal
Indeed.
[https://twitter.com/FortWorth_SEC/status/950397035714371584](https://twitter.com/FortWorth_SEC/status/950397035714371584)

------
goodroot
I know HN isn't too spiced up about Crypto, but it's important to realize that
lots of these "cryptocurrencies" are built atop Ethereum -- that's part of
what makes it magical.

This is leveraging Ethereum, to create a currency, to address a market need:
photographers getting appropriate renumeration and accreditation for their
work.

Picture this: you snap a photo, its hash is on a decentralized public record.
If someone uses this photo, you're aware of it and can be rewarded/credited
appropriately.

We can scoff at the blockchain-ization of all these applications, or realize
that they really do have far-reaching implications. Whether the investors are
patient enough to wait for the benefit to become actualized, though, is a
whole 'nother matter.

~~~
the_gastropod
> Picture this: you snap a photo, its hash is on a decentralized public
> record. If someone uses this photo, you're aware of it and can be
> rewarded/credited appropriately

How will you be aware of it? And what prevents someone from tweaking one pixel
by one bit, changing the hash of the new image?

~~~
lightbyte
>How will you be aware of it? And what prevents someone from tweaking one
pixel by one bit, changing the hash of the new image?

I suspect this would be solved by visually comparing the two images and
noticing that they are one in the same. Than you can just see which had their
hash published on the block-chain first to see which is the real one.

~~~
sgt101
Yes, but if you can identify an image in that way then you can claim the
copyright anyway. Searching for copyright violation is the challenge.

~~~
lightbyte
>but if you can identify an image in that way then you can claim the copyright
anyway.

Just identifying the images are the same doesn't prove which was the original
though. The hashes being publicly available is the key, because you can easily
tell which came first.

~~~
jncraton
That would only work if the knockoff image is registered on-chain after the
real image. If I'm going to rip off an image, I'm not going to submit it back
to the entity that created it.

Hashes don't verify the date that something was created. The blockchain
provides a date for the hash, but it provides no guarantee that the hashed
item didn't exist long before when it first appeared on chain. If I simply
modify the image metadata to say that my knockoff photo was taken at an
earlier date and flip some bits, I can still claim that mine is the original
and that I didn't submit it to the blockchain when I created it.

------
alangibson
We've hit Peak Coin.

~~~
trendia
"I knew I had made the right choice to stay out of cryptocurrencies when my
taxi driver launched an ICO." \-- Warren Buffet, sometime in the future

------
king07828
If the cycle is:

1 photographer uploads photo;

2 photo consumer (e.g., magazine) pays USD to Kodak for photo usage;

3 Kodak pays KodakCoin to photographer;

Then it looks like a cash grab and the chances of success may be limited
because there is no demand driving the price of KodakCoin.

If the cycle is:

1 photographer uploads photo;

2a photo consumer buys KodakCoins from exchange;

2b photo consumer pays KodakCoins to Kodak for photo usage;

3 Kodak pays KodakCoin to photographer.

Then it may be viable because requiring the consumer to purchase coin creates
demand for the coin.

------
velodrome
Is your stock down? Don't worry, create or invest in a cryptocoin and
profit...It's cheaper than a stock buyback.

------
JshWright
At the risk of a very low value comment...

The fact that this wasn't called KODAKoin seems like a major oversight.

~~~
djtriptych
Too easy to misinterpret as KODA Koin.

Brand guidelines are important especially at a company like Kodak.

~~~
braythwayt
They've been there before, with great success: Kodachrome.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodachrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodachrome)

------
Delmania
I jokingly told my father-in-law he can get his full retirement now (he
retired from Kodak as over 3 decades). I don't think I'll ever look at the
Kodak tower again...

The only benefit Kodak has done for it's hometown is foster a entrepreneur hub
in Rochester as all the people who once worked for them left to form their own
companies.

------
faramarz
Is this a landing page that was put together last minute? It seems like it.
Look a the teams page, the same two people are the placeholder image for every
team member. How serious is Kodak about this really?

[https://www.kodakcoin.com](https://www.kodakcoin.com)

~~~
pdelbarba
Crazy theory, but their stock very steadily this year and a lot of retail
investors probably had short positions that they've been holding as a result.
Lets say they threw this whole thing together betting that it would cause a
bump in value. I'd bet the stair step on the price chart was a cascade of
margin calls against all the short sellers because all the brokerages were
forced to buy the stock to cover, further raising the price.

~~~
faramarz
hmm it would be an insane reputation risk for the private equity firm behind
Kodak, but still very plausible.

------
ihsw2
The shtick is "efficiently managing the post-licensing process" which
basically translates to automatically debiting KODAKCoins instead of issuing
DMCA take-downs. Seems like a great way to throw debt collectors onto the
whole IP protection mess.

Sounds like hot garbage.

------
astaroth360
Just waiting for this insane cryptocurrency bubble to pop hard. Riches are
being made, but a ton of people are going to end up broke and broken, and the
bigger the bubble grows the worse the popping will be.

------
tn_
lol, this is dumb that adding a cryptocurrency would have that profound impact
on their stock. Just pay them in USD or some other currency with real-world
proven value.

~~~
whoisjuan
Euphoria and bounded rationality... People see Crypto + Public Traded Company
and they lose their shit. Especially true for a company that has struggled so
much to compete in the market for the last 15 years...

------
EdgarVerona
Easiest short opportunity of the year.

~~~
breitling
"The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"

~~~
raharley0
And this "surge" only takes the price back to where it was 3 months ago. Which
in itself is less than half of 12 months ago.

It looks like an easy short but you could easily get burnt.

------
krisives
Part of me wants to call this Cryptowashing, but I don't know enough about
modern photography. Is Kodak a brand that professionals use to shoot? Would
they patent this "integration" so that others can't easily do it in various
markets?

~~~
rainbowmverse
Kodak has more or less shifted to focus on printing and packaging. Building it
into their printers would let photographers get credit when someone prints one
of their photos (authorized or not).

------
mgiannopoulos
> WENN Digital, in partnership with Kodak, is the creator of the KODAKOne
> platform and the KODAKCoin cryptocurrency. WENN Digital is an experienced
> development and operations team with deep expertise in proprietary
> blockchain development, big data, copyright law, AI-enabled image
> recognition and post licensing monetization systems. WENN Digital has a
> strategic relationship with the Deloitte Analytics Institute in Berlin and
> the Deloitte Blockchain Institute in Munich. <

Kodak is basically licensing their brand to a company that using another
company's technology. Sounds like a safe bet /s

------
rainbowmverse
Possible use for this not well-served by existing systems: people looking to
license photos in places or communities payment processors don't serve or
don't serve well can potentially use this.

The microstock sites have spent the last several years driving the value of an
image down to the point where you're lucky to get 25 cents (only because it's
currently the guaranteed minimum), so it's already in reach of places with low
cost of living. Those are the same places where buying stock from people based
in already heavily-developed places is complicated by transaction fees and
anti-fraud measures.

------
elil17
>Get in on the ground floor

To all those wondering where the value added is, there is none. If you want to
know how they solve the oracle problem, they don’t. This is a pyramid scheme,
they even use the marketing language word for word.

------
alistproducer2
One need only take a look at Kodak's sales in the last decade to see why this
is happening. Just like we got Long Blockchain as a ploy to keep the company
stock from being delisted,I'm sure we'll be seeing many more companies that
are circling the drain looking to blockchain as a hail mary. This doesn't mean
that there aren't legit use cases for the tech, but we're gonna be seeing a
lot of shoe horning into blockchain in the coming years by failing companies.

------
pfarnsworth
Come on guys, this is really the sign of cryptocurrencies about to crash.
"When the paper boy on the street corner is giving stock advice, that's when
you sell."

------
SippinLean
>The initial coin offering...is open to accredited investors

Is this fairly common now? Most of the ICOs I've read about before were
basically open to everyone.

~~~
abritinthebay
This is SEC rules for ICOs. ICOs that don't have that limit are a) likely
scams or at best b) probably a gigantic legal mess.

~~~
SippinLean
Has this always been the case (ICOs are only open to the accredited), or does
this only apply to ICOs after the SEC's Dec 11th, 2017 statement?

~~~
abritinthebay
All of them, always, though there was no _official_ guidance for a while most
knowledgable people in the space have been saying that for... at least a year.

Of course they got yelled down by the gold-rushers... but it was nevertheless
true.

------
marblar
Can somebody explain the value-add of the blockchain portion of this vs just
licensing the photo by uploading to a website?

~~~
aviv
The former makes your stock price double overnight.

------
hodder
It is blindingly obvious we are in a bubble. I find it crazy that everyone
cannot see it.

------
weej
Have ICOs 'jumped the shark'?

Definitely starting to feel that way with solution(s) looking for problems
that don't need this complexity, reinvention of the wheel, not invented here,
or hype train (FOMO).

------
gshakir
Any one remember 'e-company' phase in 1999? Looks like it is all over again.
This will lead to speculation in stocks and we all know how that ends.

------
stusmall
I'm just waiting to buy some pets.com coin

------
have_faith
I'm sure no one will figure out how to claim other peoples photos on the
blockchain..

------
artursapek
Oh for fuck's sake

------
searine
Short kodak.

~~~
GFischer
Why? They're using the blockchain for what most people said it was supposed to
be used.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised they're moving forward with some innovation
and I guess the stock rise reflects that.

OTOH yes, I'm pessimistic they'll actually accomplish something, but who
knows? I don't know if the market will discount this soon.

~~~
searine
Blockchain might be useful here, sure.

Is that use worth 44% of their stock? Doubtful.

~~~
Donald
You're overestimating how much of Kodak is actually a viable business. Most of
their revenue still comes out of their "Print Systems" (!) division. KODK's
latest 10-K is filled with albatross risk statements like "The ability to
generate positive operating cash flows will be necessary for Kodak to continue
to operate its business."

------
jasonmaydie
Prepare for the blockchain gold rush

------
zerostar07
It's really sinister of these companies to do ICOs when the coin doesn't give
you ownership of the company

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _the coin doesn 't give you ownership of the company_

Why would you give something up when there are pools of dumb money willing to
take nothing?

