

How Three Germans Are Cloning the Web - brodd
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-02-29/the-germany-website-copy-machine#p1

======
jedc
Yes, they're copycats.

But those of us who live in Europe sometimes get absolutely _infuriated_ by
US-based startups who go for years ignoring potential non-US customers. I'm
sure Fab.com would have eventually rolled out to Europe, but in the meantime
I'm happy that someone else built a product that solves the same problem.

Sometimes this is a real regulatory problem, like anything to do with
banking/payments/etc. But oftentimes it's just because businesses don't seem
to like taking on the extra work/complexity of thinking internationally.

So while I don't like their pure copycat methods (down to page layouts), I
think they're serving a valuable purpose in the marketplace.

~~~
maigret
Working often with american programmers, I can tell they often have a hard
time including globalization in their code. On the other side, they are
usually also quite capable folks, and once they get it they apply it
consequently and efficiently. But possibly the culture is not there yet at the
beginning.

Still I don't get why not expanding _aggressively_ globally, as the code base
exists and the cost of delivering in additional countries should be marginal
for most. Too much VC money flowing in maybe?

~~~
freehunter
1\. Languages and other standards

2\. Server resources to host globally

3\. Legal costs to maintain compliance with all laws across borders yet still
deliver the same product everywhere.

It's not trivial to globalize a business, even on the web. Look at how much
trouble Google is getting into every year from various countries.

~~~
rickmb
Sorry, but 1 & 2 are trivial and relatively cheap to deal with.

Legal issues can be a problem for certain services, but I see many services
for which that is of absolutely no concern. Do you see any major legal issue
for let's say, Quora or Stackoverflow?

Google only got into trouble after they became big enough to have a physical
presence in various countries, plus they have taken up the ill-advised
strategy of flipping the bird to non-US authorities.

~~~
freehunter
1 can add significant time and complexity to your code trying to figure out
what date format, for example, should be shown to various countries or
regions. The easy solution would be to show one and provide options, but then
which one do you show? Do you do geoip? Then what language are you going to
put it in? Do you outsource translation, or hire a translator? How do you
moderate user content on a multilingual site? Do you show local prices, and if
so, how often is the conversion updated (if at all)?

There are serious logistical problems to tackle, not even counting getting it
all running and bug-free for every use case in every language with ever data
format possible. It's a huge setback, especially if you stand to gain nothing
significant from being worldwide.

------
untog
I think there is a lot to learn from companies that operate in multiple
languages- I used to work for one myself (until they, too, got a little copy-
happy). Internationalisation is a huge market, and almost all US startups
ignore it entirely. We had our original sites running in French, German,
Spanish, Portugese, Hungarian, Russian... you name it. We weren't number one
in any country- we were usually number 2 or 3. But none of our competitors
operated outside their home country, so we managed to be very successful by
occupying a lesser spot in multiple countries. Don't get me wrong, there is a
large overhead in doing this- but there's plenty of opportunity, too.

~~~
vidarh
One of my first startup was a webmail service available in 17 languages a few
months after launch. The focus on being able to internationalize it easily was
a big deal in terms of getting traction, and once we had the infrastructure,
rolling out new languages was trivial.

We even launched a Catalan version, and the cost of doing a translation was
well worth the PR it generated for even (or maybe especially) a minor market
like that.

~~~
pbreit
Where is that service now?

------
itmag
_“There are pioneering entrepreneurs and execution entrepreneurs, and maybe we
belong more to the execution entrepreneurs,” says Oliver, who speaks at a
rapid clip, frequently punctuating thoughts with a rhetorical “ja?”

“I think the most admirable entrepreneurs are those with original ideas, ja?
It’s a unique gift that you either have or you don’t. Just as we might have a
very good gift of execution, others have a unique gift for the purest form of
innovation.”_

The constant mantra of HN is "ideas are useless, execution is everything". So
why the hate against these guys?

~~~
untog
Because I think these guys are copying both ideas and execution.

It's one thing to say "I want to make a site where people can rent out their
spare rooms, I saw some other site do it", it's quite another to say "look at
airbnb.com, copy that". When the exact execution is the same (even down to
page layouts) you're not actually contributing anything yourself.

~~~
ThomPete
There are thousands of Mexican, Italian and French restaurants out there all
of them more or less copying each other.

The point of having a business is to make money, not to save the world or be
original. Thats a luxury of very few people.

So without trying to defend the guys, I would say. Welcome to the real world.

~~~
untog
Well, I don't know that "Welcome to the real world" matters. No-one in HN is
saying that they should be banned from doing it, or otherwise prevented. Just
that we, as a community, don't value the people that do it.

~~~
ThomPete
I wasn't trying to be clever.

Copying is 99% of most businesses as it should be I guess.

airbnb werent the first to come up with this concept they just happende to be
the ones who became successful with it.

I am not trying to defend the germans and I am not trying to take anything
away from the airbnb guys.

Just that it seems a tad removed from reality to not value that a company is
able to make money by being fast executioners of proven ideas.

I wouldn't do it myself, I value originality as much as the next guy. But are
what they are doing really that despicable?

------
moadeel
I have a few German friends, I understand them to be quite risk averse.
However, what Samwers have accomplished in Germany is something far far more
important and bigger than a clone industry - it is the spirit of taking risks,
a willingness to aspire to be something other than traditional careers and a
strong stance/philosophy on a type of entrepreneurship (clones) - stances such
as these almost always lead to an ideological opposition and make way for
others to engage in similar realms with differing philosophies. You can see
that in Project A ventures, which is a reaction to Samwer's philosophy, and
that reaction is good for Germany's start-up culture.

~~~
rbanffy
> it is the spirit of taking risks

Erm... I don't think copying successful business is very risky. You can, of
course, bork execution, but the key part - exploring the "needspace" and
finding a viable business model - is already done. And even executing, when
someone executed before, is rather easy.

~~~
Ecio78
You have no assurance that something that works in the USA will work also in
Germany, Italy, EU or (even more difficult ) any african or asian country.

As said by others, there are language, cultural and legal differences.

EDIT (missed a piece): Execution is not only design and coding, it's also
verifying the market, adapting the product to this market etc..

note: i'm not justifing them (at least not completely), just making some
point.

~~~
rbanffy
True, they have to adapt the product, but, still, they start from the lessons
the competitor already learned. Not all models adapt equally well to every
market, but they appear to have a culture of "fail cheaply" sufficiently
ingrained to lower risks. They are a very lean business.

------
ig1
It's funny how Fab complains so much about having their business model cloned
when Fab itself is just one in a long line of flash sales businesses with a
landing page style that is so common you can get it as a SaaS.

~~~
joering2
+1. The only thing funnier to me is Facebook shutting down or legally going
against anyone that scrap their data and get any traction, while the major
reason why there are where they are is in part because of the co-owner's
_hackers_ past...

------
robinjfisher
I think this says a lot about the English-language focus of a lot of startups.
Failure to cater, through language options, to individual countries will
result in a demand for services that do and the Samwer brothers are meeting
this demand.

Is the price that companies such as GroupOn pay equivalent to the cost of
localising their own offering? Maybe so and it may be a good deal.

~~~
com
Actually it's not just language, a lot of startups are US focussed which can
be frustrating when you'd love to be their customer, don't mind using English
etc.

Of course, with things like deals sites and so on, you might need to have
localised sales organisations busy in each supported market.

But I wonder how many startups simply choose the English language/US market to
minimise complexity and risk? (Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but it
does open the door to copycats)

------
pg
"There are pioneering entrepreneurs and execution entrepreneurs, and maybe we
belong more to the execution entrepreneurs."

What doublespeak. Startups are 99% execution. All successful startup founders
are "execution entrepreneurs." All that really distinguishes the Samwers is
that they copy existing ideas, and there are already names for people who do
that.

~~~
ckuehne
"there are already names for people who do that."

Honest question: What name is that? (English is not my first language.)

And since I cannot quite interpret the tone of your comment I have to ask
bluntly: Do you find it okay what the Samwers do?

~~~
pg
The term I was thinking of is "knock-off artists."

I don't like what they do. It's ok to take an existing idea and adapt it. E.g.
to try to make a web-based version of a desktop app. But there is something
contemptible about copying something so literally that you even copy the
mistakes.

~~~
intellectronica
It does smell a bit funny, but in a way what they do is not just copy an app
but rather create an international / European knock-off. They identified a
weakness in the way American startups operate - concentrating on the American
and/or English-speaking market for very long while neglecting the rest of the
world, and they're taking advantage of that. Their business model would become
obsolete if startups became better at addressing international markets.

------
limmeau
I had completely missed that the Samwer brothers were in the web copying
business. Last time I heard of them, they were busy selling teenagers ringtone
subscriptions ("Jamba").

~~~
cygx
They were in the copycat business first, selling alando.de to ebay for
millions, ~100 days after launch.

They have a history of making money by, if not illegal, at least morally
questionable means, and got in trouble with the unions about treatment of
employees...

------
blumentopf
Being German myself I think the Samwers are an embarrassment. Unscrupulous
copycats like them should be outlawed by the German startup scene.

~~~
patrickk
It's just capitalism pure and simple.

I personally think it's distasteful to rip off a website design directly, but
if they can launch a proven business model in Europe quicker than the American
originators (or because the American company can't/won't go international),
why not? Imitation is the greatest form of flattery and all that.

------
justincormack
Ripping off the design is not cool. But otherwise, well it is like being the
guy who opens the second restaurant, the first one might get annoyed but in a
few years there will be thousands. Sounds like great execution too.

~~~
xd
Interesting point you make about ripping off the design. I'm not a designer,
just a humble developer .. why is it OK to rip of a product idea but not the
design of a product?

~~~
riffraff
I am not sure if this is defendable, but I would imagine it boils down to a
difference that is often perceived between an idea (astract, possibly
conceived by different people in similar ways) and it's realization.

People generally won't argue when good ideas are cloned between competing
products, and praise the competition.

In the same way it's ok to write a theatre play in which the love between two
people is contrasted by their families, but putting "wherefore art thou
Romeo?" in the dialogs would seem bad.

------
subpixel
Copying ideas and execution just happens. Look at other industries - there's a
Chipotle clone, frozen yogurt clones, etc. And many luxury sedans seem to be
about 90% the same design, at least on the outside.

The reason the Samwer story is so weird is a) there's so much damn money in
their game (Groupon, Facebook, etc.) and b) they're generally regarded to be
ruthless, cut-throat, slave-drivers.

I know I'd feel differently about the phenomenon if they seemed less like
idea-pirates and more like contributors to innovation.

------
gulbrandr
single page link: [http://www.businessweek.com/printer/articles/10778-how-
three...](http://www.businessweek.com/printer/articles/10778-how-three-
germans-are-cloning-the-web)

------
yaliceme
Most of the discussion seems to be about whether or not it's "bad" that the
Samwers are "copycats." I was more struck by the culture at Rocket, which
sounds quite nasty judging by the article. (“team meetings are full of
insults, non-performers openly bashed in meetings as well as via e-mail.”) At
least one top Rocket employee is cited as leaving due to the "climate of
aggression" (the bad, inwardly directed, self-destructive kind).

Don't we at HN usually say that it's the people that are most important? If
culture is destiny, then the Samwers' copying of website layouts is the least
of what's wrong here.

------
spinchange
This reminds me of what you so see many small Chinese and Asian firms do with
hardware and other physical goods in their local markets.

------
johnrob
The communist regimes of 50 years ago were more than happy to protect our
(American) ideas from foreigners. I suppose that in fighting so hard to undue
this, we thought they would buy our products but not clone them.

------
TDL
If you are not willing to meet demand, someone else will be.

------
ThomPete
In some of the earlier episodes of Stack Exchange Podcast Jeff and Joel were
debating whether to localize.

Just to put some of this into perspective.

------
minikomi
The same thing happens in Japan too .. <http://camp-fire.jp/>

------
ktizo
Perhaps if you don't have the capability to deal with a territory, try and
find locals who do and franchise to them before you get copied there.

