
Norway's capital is the latest city to declare war on cars - edward
https://www.economist.com/europe/2019/05/30/norways-capital-is-the-latest-city-to-declare-war-on-cars
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kfk
In Denmark and Germany public transportation is not always that good, they
rely heavily on bikes. For instance in Madrid you can rely 100% on a nice, on
time, metro system. I hope it’s different in Norway and that they also have
public transport that can compete with cars. Of course bikes are good, but not
all of us are ready to bike 20-30 mins to work every day in the snow during
winter, or hot days during summer.

~~~
Gys
> In Denmark and Germany public transportation is not always that good, they
> rely heavily on bikes

Are you really implying that in these countries many people use bikes because
the public transport is not good enough ? In Spain nobody (?) uses bikes
because the public transport is perfect ? Do you have sources for both or is
this just your very subjective opinion ?

~~~
kfk
I lived in Spain, Denmark and Germany. Let’s take Munich Germany as that’s
where I live now. While bikes are definitely a cultural thing here, many
people definitely prefer them because the public transport doesn’t get you
easily to all places and can be very unreliable during work days (especially
the sbahn trains). You also have situations where biking gets you door to door
in 30 mins and public transport in 1 hour (to do 8km). Of course after a
couple of years of work people buy cars anyways here, I think a lot of that is
due to the not so good public transport. Of course Munich public transport is
light years better than Naples where I am from, but unfortunately it’s still
not good enough to replace bikes or cars in many situations.

~~~
tomglynch
Do you view bikes as an inferior form of transport?

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kfk
I think the main issue with bikes is that they are seen as inferior by the
transport administration. For instance if there is heavy snow they’ll clean up
the car roads but not necessarily the bike ones. Also many times car roads are
straightforward but bike ones are hard to figure out. Add to that that many
work places don’t have showers or changing rooms and you tell me how this is
practical for work commute (which is 80% of the transport I do).

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
> For instance if there is heavy snow they’ll clean up the car roads but not
> necessarily the bike ones.

Isn't that just a logistical issue though? If it snows, suddenly a huge area
is affected. You would need an unreasonable fleet of cleaners to clear all
pathways in time. I think they can only concentrate on the main roads, most
"car" roads aren't cleared, too. But I may be off here, are there cities that
clear all bike lanes?

I'm in Munich too btw., I think the bike infrastructure is pretty okay (try
biking in Stuttgart)? I rarely use public transport, its just too slow and
inflexible. I also don't think it can be improved to a point where it can
reasonably compete with biking. And thats ok, biking is fine. Just take the
bike, its more fun and healthy anyway.

~~~
Xylakant
Copenhagen for example prioritizes major bike lines over streets afaik.

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vinni2
What bothers me is the hypocrisy of Norway. On the one hand they wage war
against cars and fossil fuels domestically. On the other hand they refuse to
stop exploring new oil deposits or reduce oil production and exports. They are
not bothered with all this oil burnt elsewhere. They are doing very little
about that.

~~~
dropofwill
Norway isn’t a monolith. Oslo city councilors don’t have any control over oil
production/exports.

~~~
vinni2
There are nation wide policies in Norway promoting green energy for example,
they give incentives to electricity cars. There are policies in other cities
too which is adding tolls and expensive parking etc. to discourage use of
cars.

Which is great but that is nothing compared to all the oil that is exported. I
get that they can’t immediately stop producing oil. but they are also not
slowing and also exploring new deposits.

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tomglynch
"war on cars" ? It's returning the streets to the people!

> Late last year, the government removed some 700 parking spaces from the city
> centre, replacing them with benches, bicycle docks and more pavement.

Great! The average parking space is 2*6 metres, so they've regained 8,400 sqm
of public space!

~~~
choeger
Returning? The whole concept of a city rests on the idea of more people
traveling into it for various reasons than people living in it. People who
want to live in a city profit massively from the availability of services that
are economically possible due to the extreme density of customers. If you lock
out individual travel (and there might be good reasons to do so) you
inevitably transform your city into something else that has not existed
before. That is not "returning" or "regaining" nor will the space be
necessarily "public".

Whatever comes out of these modern transformations might as well leave the
city centers economically deserted, or at least less attractive to their
current citizen.

While I never understood the urge to live in the cities, I do understand the
call for more space and in particular less car traffic from those who do live
there. But they also should understand that cities _do_ come with downsides
and there is no guarantee that you can have the cake and eat it.

~~~
scotty79
You must be from USA. In Europe we had all the large cities before cars. And
curtailing car usage doesn't lock out individual travel. You still have public
transport, bicicles and such.

My urge to live in a city comes from the fact that I could get everything I
need to live, by going out of my apatment for 30 minutes and walking to few
nearby shops. No car needed. And I can get to various interesting
entertainment venues by hopping on a bus for a 15 minutes.

~~~
choeger
> In Europe we had all the large cities before cars. And curtailing car usage
> doesn't lock out individual travel. You still have public transport,
> bicicles and such.

First of all, public transport is not individual travel. Neither the times nor
the locations nor the cost are under your control. Bicycles are individual
travel, and that is why they are so relevant in modern cities, but they are
neither weather-independent, nor barrier-free, nor do they provide the same
utility as a car. Funnliy enough, they seem to evolve pretty much the same way
cars did here in Europe by getting ever larger and more capable.

I would not be surprised if bicycles would be the next piece of individual
travel that's becoming unfashionable. IMO the problem cities have with cars is
not the pollution, it's the individuality that they cannot deal with.
Everything individual tends to become problematic with a high enough
population density. Today's 2sqm parking lot might be tomorrow's 0.5sqm
bicycle stand or next week's 10sqm individual bathroom. If there shall ever be
an acceptable degree of individual space consumption in a city, that city
needs to define a limit on population density. Somehow I doubt that any city
will ever do that, though.

~~~
Joe-Z
That's a really interesting point you brought up there. I wanted to come up
with the counter-example of Hong Kong, which is already a hyper-dense city.
But, as it turns out, bikes do get pushed out there in favour of public
transport:

[https://www.tripsavvy.com/where-to-rent-and-ride-a-bike-
in-h...](https://www.tripsavvy.com/where-to-rent-and-ride-a-bike-in-hong-
kong-1535979)

Other contemporary* cities should still implement more bike-friendly
infrastructure. There's other goals which can be furthered by more people
biking. Climate change and public health come to mind.

*we can worry about the problems of hyper-density when it's actually here. For most of the big western cities this is probably at least a few decades out.

~~~
choeger
> we can worry about the problems of hyper-density when it's actually here

I think we should actively work against hyper dense cities. Or at least have
the citizens decide about how dense they want their city to become (but then
they'll have to live with the consequences). Right now we are facing dense
cities and try to somehow adjust the policies after the fact. That seems not
ideal.

~~~
Joe-Z
It surely isn't ideal, but that's kind of how the world works, no?

New developments emerge and we adjust our laws to deal with the new situation
in a way that society sees fit. IMHO voting on something like maximum
population density policies is way too abstract of a concept for people to
even have an opinion about. If it were the opposite one might think we as
humans have some kind of plan going into the future... ;)

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neonate
[http://archive.is/FsDgN](http://archive.is/FsDgN)

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kmlx
> Madrid could become first European city to scrap low-emissions zone

> Region’s likely new president Isabel Díaz Ayuso believes congestion is part
> of city’s cultural identity

[https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/may/31/madrid-set-
to...](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/may/31/madrid-set-to-end-clean-
air-project-in-rightwing-power-switch)

you win some, you lose some.

~~~
willio58
Currently in Spain for a month vacation and I was considering if I should
visit Madrid.. this makes me have little interest.

~~~
Al-Khwarizmi
As a Spaniard, I had become reconciled with Madrid in the last years, I visit
frequently it has really improved a lot. But now it's likely to become a
dirty, congested den of corruption again, I don't think I will keep visiting
it.

Note that the regression is still not implemented, so you can still go and
enjoy it before they ruin it.

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atemerev
OK, will not go there. I love cars and driving. It is commuting that creates
congestion problems.

~~~
truckerbill
Thinking in terms of 'I' is part of the problem.

~~~
rtmaximo
Found the groupthinker. Joking aside, what is the alternative you propose?
Especially in view of human nature

~~~
truckerbill
'Is what I view as a necessity really a luxury? And what impact does it have
on my community and the environment as a whole?'

~~~
atemerev
Not a luxury, neither a necessity, just a nice affordable thing to have that
greatly improves nearly everybody’s quality of life, especially if you have
children.

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mac_was
What are we going to do with millions of people who will loose jobs in the
automotive industry? Surely they will if we ban cars!

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kumarvvr
Off topic : Publication should really stop using such extreme expressions for
what is essentially simple progressive policies.

"War on cars" really? Are they banning cars from ever entering the capital?

The whole thing is more like "Govt. is actively discouraging usage of cars"

~~~
Thlom
Ongoing since last election 4 years ago which gave the Green Party and the
left control over the city for the first time in 2 decades. Just visited Oslo
the first time in years last week, and the city was so much more enjoyable
with less cars on the streets. New election this autumn, fingers crossed.

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pjc50
Clickbait title, register-walled article. Not sure it's even new news:

[https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/2165462/drive...](https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/2165462/drivers-
norways-capital-oslo-see-red-over-citys-green-war-cars)

[https://www.fastcompany.com/90294948/what-happened-when-
oslo...](https://www.fastcompany.com/90294948/what-happened-when-oslo-decided-
to-make-its-downtown-basically-car-free)

