
You have options – Why we left the U.S. and moved back to Europe - samjc
http://sam-the-man.com/you-have-options/
======
pmoriarty
I love to travel, meet other people, experience different cultures, and widen
my horizons. For those reasons alone, I'd definitely advocate at least doing a
lot of traveling to lots of different countries, and (if possible) trying to
live in those countries you like best.

That said, I've found that living in other countries does have its down sides.
The one that's bothered me most is being treated like a second-class citizen.
In the countries I've been to, I've often felt like an outsider, or a cash
machine, or a target. If you don't speak the language, you're usually treated
even worse.

Those experiences have really given me a much stronger sense of empathy for
how immigrants and other foreigners are treated in my own country, but has
also made living in my own country feel a lot safer and more desirable.

I haven't given up on travel, and still like to do so to expand my horizons
and experience places that are really different, but I really think twice
about just jumping up and permanently moving somewhere else. Most expats can't
take it long-term, and wind up moving back after a while. It's a rare breed
who can move to a radically different country and remain -- unless, of course,
they feel they have no other choice.

~~~
jacquesm
Some countries are worse in this respect than others. I've lived in lots of
different places, I've never really felt much of an outsider because (1) I try
hard to learn as much of the local language that I can, (2) I try to connect
to the locals rather than to my fellow country men and (3) I try really hard
to be nice to people and help where I can. Having some skills will make this
much quicker. Even so, there are definitely many levels of inclusion and
you'll likely never be seen as a local but that's pretty much expected since
after all you're not.

In order of feeling accepted:

\- Canada

\- United States

\- Poland

\- Romania

Those are the countries where I've spent more than just a few months
cumulatively, though I never actually had a permanent residence in the United
States (I did have an American "Inc" and spent lots of time there). Even to
this day I have more friends abroad than in the country I was born in (and
where I live).

And moving back here was a mixed bag, for one the Canadian paperwork took
forever (we really felt that Canadian government was taking advantage of us
and stringing us along), for another there was serious concern about the
quality of the education in the place where we lived.

As long as you think of yourself as an 'expat' rather than as an 'immigrant'
you're on the wrong track.

~~~
hollerith
>And moving back here was a mixed bag

"here" meaning the Netherlands; is that not so?

~~~
jacquesm
Yep.

------
throwaway84742
People tend to be irrational about things and this is a good illustration. As
broken and expensive as US healthcare is, you’re making 3x the money here, and
out of pocket maximums do kick in eventually. And the US is not the top
country by far, even among developed ones, in number of mass murder victims
per 100000 population. You’re vastly more likely to drown in your backyard
pool than be a victim of a mass shooting in the US. Majority of firearm deaths
are suicides. Majority of homicides are concentrated in crime / gang activity
hubs like Detroit, Chicago, and a few others. Firearm homicide has been
trending downward for decades, even if you take the crime hubs into account.
IOW if you don’t live in one of the well known “bad” places, your chance of
dying from a firearm wound is very low indeed.

~~~
pranjalv123
Out of pocket maximums kick in eventually, unless you accidentally go to an
out-of network provider, unless you lose your job and therefore your
insurance, unless your insurance decides that a drug you need isn't covered,
etc., etc., etc.

~~~
throwaway84742
You don’t lose your insurance anymore if you lose your job. You are required
by law to have insurance whether you have a job or not.

~~~
projektir
Your formulation makes it sound like the government will make sure you have
insurance.

This is not the case. _You_ have to make sure you have insurance or the
government will fine you. But if you were unable to get insurance for whatever
reason, you still don't have insurance.

And Obamacare premiums are not small and the insurance is not very good.

~~~
maxerickson
What's your criteria for "good"?

The worst conforming ACA plans are essentially the catastrophic insurance that
people think they are clamoring for; they are expensive because health care
costs in the US are spiraling out of control. It could be that people actually
want plans with a bunch of complicated limitations and limits, but I doubt it.

~~~
_dps
> The worst conforming ACA plans are essentially the catastrophic insurance
> that people think they are clamoring for

Just an anecdote, but I have not found this to be the case at all, and I'd
figure I'd offer an example of one such "clamorer who thinks he wants
catastrophic plans" to balance the discussion.

Prior to ACA I was on a "catastrophic" plan (despite being able to afford
something much more comprehensive). I think the "catastrophic" term is kind of
dumb, and I'd instead call it "actually-insurance, not a prepaid health
subscription".

The premium was around $95/month and I spent maybe another ~$1k/year on
medications and office visits. I was totally satisfied with this health
coverage and never felt I had to limit my access to health care because of my
plan.

As soon as ACA rolled around I tried to find the most similar plan I could
(mine was discontinued despite promises to the contrary).

1) I couldn't get as high a deductible, so I was forced to pay for risk-
reduction I didn't want. In an absolutely life-threatening 1%-of-insurees
catastrophe, my family can absorb say $25k/year out of pocket so I see no
reason to insure against that financial risk.

2) The first year my premium was $180, then $220, then $260. I did not save
any money on medications or office visits (if anything it got more expensive,
but that may also just be a general trend in US health costs).

So post-ACA my insurance premium cost has nearly tripled, and the product I
considered satisfactory before is simply not available on the market.

In summary: people can rationally prefer pre-ACA catastrophic plans, and post-
ACA such options are not available.

~~~
maxerickson
I think that's a fair counterpoint. It would be interesting to see some
statistics about how many people are informed about the trade offs between
deductibles and premiums and such.

------
yardie
We moved from France back to the US (Miami, specifically) in the last year.
Going back to France has come up a lot in our household. Salaries are
definitely higher here but once I deduct the major expenses (healthcare,
childcare, healthy foods) it comes out to be only 10% bump salary wise.

In our travels the one thing we have found is that medical tourism is becoming
a better known option to Americans. I've met doctors and surgeons who keep a
small office in Miami for consultation but the operations are done in
Colombia, Brazil or Mexico.

~~~
ianai
Is real estate cheaper here or there? It seems, at least in the southwest,
more common to be able to afford more land/property.

~~~
yardie
Land is definitely cheaper in the US. Building codes vary quite a bit. But I
don’t expect these houses to last 50+ years without significant upkeep. It
seems like the quality of the buildings were higher in Western Europe. But
that could be survivor bias. Crappy buildings get knocked down sooner.

------
ukulele
It's funny that Florida has such a pristine reputation internationally. I'm
from the Southern US, and my view of Florida is that it's where 80% of the
crazies in the US live.

Anytime I see a batsh*t crazy headline? Florida. Check the articles you see
from now on and you'll notice a pattern.

So to all the internationals: if you like the US but not its extremes,
definitely don't move to Florida.

~~~
DanielDent
Florida has embraced open records laws, while other US jurisdictions have not
- certainly not to the same extent.

A significant portion of your observation can likely be attributed to
reporting bias: it's easy/cheap for a journalist to browse the website of
their local Florida police department. In another jurisdiction, that same
story might involve: hiring an investigative journalist, spending 3 months,
and fighting to have a FOIA request honoured.

~~~
ukulele
My family vacations there every year and my grandparents lived there for 30
years. I can assure you the crazy is real and not imagined.

~~~
macroexpanse
You're not wrong about the crazy. The point is that it's not just Florida.

~~~
ianai
Let us not forget, it was Nevadans who "occupied" an animal refuge:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_Nati...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge)

------
mavdi
I moved from London to Lisbon and then to Brazil. I get the same kinda "wtf"
reaction from Brazilians. The bottom line is, with all that's wrong in Brazil
and given my circumstances and my remote well paid job, I'm a lot happier
living here than anywhere else in the world. I truly love this place.

I don't think one needs to try to make a place work for them. Sure you can try
and adapt. But ultimately most people reading this have the option to live
elsewhere. Don't be afraid to take the chance.

~~~
dapreja
Well paid US job? Could you please provide ball park estimate and what exactly
do you do. Also how do you deal with currency exchange and are yoy a native
brazzilian speaker? I've been contemplating moving to south america as well.

~~~
mavdi
Yes well paid US based programming job. I transferwise.com funds, you have to
read rules about your country of origin and double taxation laws. Brazil is a
bureaucratic hell. I speak very basic Portuguese but taking lessons. I would
definitly suggest living in a target country for a month before deciding to
move.

------
jacquesm
Three of my friends moved in the other direction (all of them Americans by
birth), one with his family in tow.

Having options is good, and it is fairly easy for American entrepreneurs to
move to Europe (Germany works if you have enough backing and a good plan) or
back again if they decide that's what is best for them.

Healthcare is definitely a factor and so is the climate but when you're young
and working hard neither of those will likely move the needle much (but
healthcare is a bit of a lottery in the longer term).

The paranoia angle wouldn't factor in for most people, though I can see how if
you are prone to that that it will affect you.

If you're an entrepreneur and you wish to address the largest single market on
the planet (one language, one currency) with your start-up the USA is probably
the place to be if you can get in in an easy way. If not then the EU is likely
your best bet but it will be substantially harder to address the EU market
than the American one. You might even get a neat balance if you lived in
Europe but treated your start-up like an American entity from day one.

~~~
stevenwoo
One of my college classmates moved about 15 years ago from working for NASA to
Europe to work for ESA, I think the decision process is different for African
Americans, one has to think about how one or one's child is more likely to be
killed by a policeman than a terrorist in the United States (when the
President cites terrorism as some existential threat to be addressed by
national immigration policies versus no action on police), no matter what your
status is, it was not that different for James Baldwin or Richard Wright than
it is today.

~~~
jacquesm
That's a good point, ethnicity likely is a huge factor in making decisions
such as these. That said, racism is alive and well in Europe.

~~~
Mononokay
It's certainly less likely to be a cause of death for your child or person,
given officers in general are less armed. And in the UK's case, they ban some
of the worst offenders from entering.

~~~
jacquesm
That's true, in Western Europe police forces are much more disciplined than in
the United States. Even so, being a person of color in France is going to be a
significant disadvantage in the eyes of the police, less so in most other
countries but still definitely not a level playing field. I wish it were
different.

What we do have is corruption, and lots of it in some places, again, less so
in others. The various countries in the Union are at least as different from
each other as the American states.

------
ianai
I moved away from Las Vegas for many of the same reasons as OP:

The Heat: While LV heat is much dryer than Florida's, I hope to never live
where it gets so hot ever again. I would push myself to fight the heat and be
outside in spite of it, but there's only so much fight.

The Pollution: Only a few, select zip codes have decent air quality in LV.
Where I worked, on the strip, mixed disgusting air quality with the highest
heat in the valley.

Everywhere you go the sun will beat down on you, the air will offer no
comfort, and there will be no shade.

The Violence: I lived in a fine apartment in a fine area (with mansions and
golf courses nearby). The cops nonetheless shot and killed the occupant in the
apartment immediately above me one night - while I was in my apartment
downstairs. He deserved it, too, but that doesn't change my perception of the
violence in LV. A woman was hit and killed by a car just outside of the
complex one weekend. I worked on the strip the night of the Oct 1 shooting
massacre, too. But that's just the tip of the violence problem in LV. People
treat one another with so much contempt and hostility in everyday life there.
They will actually come up to you, tell you they do not like you, and that
they will do everything they can to destroy you. And they will do it often.
You will probably have never met this person before their threat, and have
done nothing to earn their hate.

Healthcare: I had mixed experiences with doctors there. I had doctors tell me
they did not believe I had the symptoms I described - because I'm a guy. But I
also finally got a chronic condition under control with a doctor there, too.
Of course, that doctor will still, to this day, suggest we stop treatment at
the slightest misstatement from me. Financially though, I once had a doctor
send my bill to collections before ever actually billing me. Within days of
treatment his collections agency contacted me - as though I were a problem
patient. Then, years back, a gastroenterologist was found sharing medical
supplies between patients. I forget the numbers, but he gave many people
HIV/hepatitis/etc that way.

Options: It took a long time after the great recession for LV to recover. I'm
sure it will not fare well during the next recession.

------
toasterlovin
I know we’re not anywhere near this being a pressing concern, but Pax
Americana is coming to an end and I think there’s something to be said for
America’s physical location on the globe and relationship with it’s two
neighbors. There have been lots of conflagrations in Europe in the time since
the American civil war 150 years ago, but there have been essentially none in
America. Meanwhile, the raw ingredients of the terrors of the 20th century
still exist in Europe.

~~~
anothergoogler
Pax Romana lasted 200 years. It's been 70 so far for Pax Americana. You seem
certain that it's on the brink. Why is that?

~~~
toasterlovin
Well, peace may continue, but it’ll be hard to attribute it to America.
China’s ascendance is looming on the horizon. Unless something goes
drastically wrong for them, their military and economic might will dwarf
America’s. And I think there’s tons of instability on the horizon. Weird shit
is happening in Europe, Russia is back as a geopolitical force, Japan is on
path to militarize again, etc. These are strange times; the world order that
the Soviet collapse ushered in seems to quickly be coming to an end.

~~~
anothergoogler
The Pax Americana has never been free of contentiousness or outright war.
People (especially young people) forget how fragile things were prior to the
fall of the USSR. The complete US dominance of the '90s and '00s is not the
norm. And just as the Soviet house of cards collapsed, there's no guarantee
that China's ascendancy is indefinite. Russia's posturing right now is a veil
for its domestic strife and decrepit military, they are not much of a force.

------
knuththetruth
I’ve thought this for a long time, but the insanity of the US healthcare
system makes is such that it erases the wage differences between here and
countries with national healthcare systems for a huge percentage of the
population long term.

You’re essentially gambling that you won’t be struck by a finance destroying
health crisis for a long enough time that you’ll come out ahead overall. But
when you think about the fact that 35-40% of people develop cancer in their
lifetimes, or the “financial death by a thousand procedures” described in the
post, that seems unlikely, at least for a good portion of people.

~~~
toasterlovin
I dunno, whenever I see European or Canadian software engineering salaries
mentioned, I do some quick math and it seems like I come out way ahead, even
if I were to pay my family’s out of pocket maximum every year.

------
Sir_Substance
I move from Australia to Iceland. Icelanders always go "what the hell man? why
would you do that?" when they find out.

It's complicated. Broadly speaking, it's an even split between:

1\. Icelands software industry being considerably more vibrant than
Australias, which is really sad for Aus.

2\. Australias government increasingly intervening directly in it's citizens
lives whether they like it or not. The Icelandic government is pretty hands
off, þetta reddast etc.

3\. Icelanders have _no_ idea what the word "heat" really means. They've never
under-clocked their computers to keep them stable during summer. I'll take
Icelandic winter over Australia summer any day of the week.

It's been hard, but I wouldn't take back my decision, no way. Any one of those
reasons is good enough for me.

We're living in the first age in human history where you can really just pick
up all your shit and straight up move to the opposite side of the planet, no
dramas. I paid ~$8,000AUD to some dudes, they rocked up at my place with a
truck full of boxes and paper and wrapped up literally the entire house and
drove off. Three months later some other dudes showed up at my new place in
Reykjavik and unboxed everything for me. 8k isn't nothing, but it's not
unreachable either, and I also paid for the full service move. Easiest move I
ever did, but you could probably do it for half the price if you packed
yourself.

Out of the whole planet, what're the odds that you were born in the place that
suits you best? It's definitely worth shopping around.

~~~
alva
Would love to find out how you got a job programming in Iceland. What were the
requirements for language, Visa, how did you find the role etc?

~~~
Sir_Substance
Australians don't need visas to visit or stay temporarily in Iceland, but to
work you need a residence permit and work permit.

Residence permits won't get processed while you're in the country as a
tourist, so you apply from outside the country and wait. There are no language
requirements as long as someone is willing to hire you. To get a residence
permit you need to meet the quality of "support"[1], which broadly means
either approximately $22,000 in savings per year of your permit OR payslips
demonstrating a monthly income that meets $22,000/yr OR an employment contract
from an Icelandic company.

If you go the employment route, you need a work permit. For software, this is
usually done on the basis of "expert knowledge"[2]. The company usually needs
to demonstrate that they're unable to hire a schengen zone citizen to do your
job (otherwise you're not expert enough I guess?), and then issue you with a
contract that you submit to the directorate of immigration. That's relatively
informal though, and mostly means the company needs to advertise in Iceland
first and show that it interviewed candidates and they weren't suitable.
Iceland is heavily unionized and your work permit will need a stamp of
approval from a relevant union. The first time you request this the union will
want to see your qualifications. I strongly suggest becoming a member of that
union to smooth things over when you get it renewed every one or two years.
Iceland is charmingly small-town corrupt like that.

All Icelanders under ~60 speak flawless English, and it's pretty common for
Icelanders under 30 to interleave English words into Icelandic sentences in
cases where there isn't a good Icelandic word. Unless the company you apply to
works heavily with Icelandic language products, it's unlikely that speaking
only English would be a barrier to employment.

As for getting the job itself, Iceland is /desperate/ for good programmers.
The cost of living is high, the wages are low, and the local universities
don't have fabulous software degrees[3]. It's hard for Icelandic companies to
hire good programmers. If you want to come to Iceland and you have a
qualification, it may not be that hard. However, I suggest visiting for a
holiday in June and again in February, to see what this country is really
like. If you don't love it as a place to live, you won't stay long.

This might be a good place to start looking:
[https://www.tvinna.is/](https://www.tvinna.is/)

[1] [http://www.utl.is/index.php/en/basic-
requirements1#support](http://www.utl.is/index.php/en/basic-
requirements1#support)

[2] [http://www.utl.is/index.php/en/residence-permits-based-on-
wo...](http://www.utl.is/index.php/en/residence-permits-based-on-
work#residence-permit-requiring-expert-knowledge)

[3] My friends tell me that slightly pre-banking-crisis, all the universities
reformed their software degrees to churn out low level CRUD app webdevs to
make lots of web apps for the high flying Icelandic banks. When the banks all
crashed, Iceland became awash with relatively inflexible developers, and the
universities haven't really refocused their coursework much, so the standard
of graduates is, I am told, still relatively poor.

~~~
alva
Thank you for the detailed response :)

------
ojbyrne
The US has a lot more to offer than Florida, especially when it comes to the
complaints (heat, health care and mass shootings) in the article.

~~~
jacquesm
Can you explain the healthcare differences? From what I know it is pretty bad
all over the USA compared to say France or Germany.

~~~
nostrademons
Healthcare is one of those areas where your experience varies dramatically
based on how rich you (or your employer) are. I had nothing but good
experiences when I was on Google's health plan - basically walk in to any of a
number of top-notch, very wealthy clinics, don't pay a cent, get great care.
Ditto when I was on my mom's government-employee plan. I was hospitalized with
an acute kidney infection when I was 15, one that would've killed me had I
lived 50 years earlier. Immediately got referred to a top-notch children's
hospital, attentive doctors, pumped full of antibiotics and made all better
again, and my family didn't pay a cent of what would've been a $200-300K
hospital bill. Similarly, my dad's hospitalization at the end of his life cost
close to a million bucks, of which we didn't pay anything.

At the other end of the spectrum, if you don't have health insurance, you will
be bankrupted by the slightest medical emergency. You'll get care, but the
doctors generally won't care about you. Oftentimes you end up going to
hospitals that are poorer, with more overworked nursing staff that more
frequently make mistakes. Even having private health insurance these days or a
HDHP from a smaller organization still is a much lower level of service, with
much higher amounts paid out of pocket. When I left Google I bought a private
individual plan from Anthem, the same insurer I had at Google; despite it
being the same company, my existing doctor wouldn't take the new plan, and I
couldn't even see the same doctor I'd just waltzed in to see on Google's plan
without paying $400 out of pocket or so.

Much of Obamacare's achievement and Obamacare's pain comes from being an
attempt to spread the misery around, so that we don't have a caste system for
healthcare in the U.S. It's meant that 20-30M people who were previously
unable to see doctors at all now have basic health care, but it's also meant
that many people for whom health care used to be completely covered, free, now
have to pay something close to the real cost of their care, and they're
finding out just how much the experience sucked for the rest of America.

~~~
jacquesm
Ok, but the number of people employed by companies such as Google is very low
compared to the total number of Americans.

So statistically speaking chances are that you'll find yourself on that 'other
end of the spectrum'.

~~~
nostrademons
Statistically speaking yes, health care in the U.S. sucks more than in
countries with socialized medicine.

You are not a statistic. Evaluate your expected experience accordingly.

~~~
jacquesm
From a rich persons point of view such expected experience will vary
drastically compared to a poor person's. They can evaluate all they want it
will likely not make much difference.

------
saudioger
Every time I fight with my insurance company about what's covered or not, I
certainly consider it.

When I had to enter my kid into a lottery system and cross my fingers he'd end
up in a good school, I certainly considered it.

Canada's not too far away.

~~~
ctvo
Ever live in Canada? It's more US-lite than western Europe.

------
SirLJ
The only problem with the US is that you have to report to IRS even if you
live and work in some other place...

~~~
innocentoldguy
I'm currently in the process of moving out of the U.S. to Japan. I'm
considering ditching my U.S. citizenship for this reason.

~~~
roywiggins
Do you have Japanese citizenship? Ending up stateless doesn't seem worth it.

~~~
Mononokay
I may be wrong, but I believe if not so the US legally can't allow him to
renounce his citizenship.

(Allowing a person to become stateless is illegal if I remember correctly, but
my memory's ever-so-slightly fuzzy around this topic.)

------
avenoir
With all of the options he had he decided to move to ex-soviet republic...
Let's see how long you'll manage to stay there before ludicrous levels of
corruption at all levels of society start making expensive healthcare in the
US seem insignificant in comparison. I say this as Ukrainian/Armenian who was
born and lived in the USSR and seen my father, who's a brilliant engineer,
stagnate in the professional culture that pushed him aside because of his
ethnicity or because he became a threat to some old bastard who's been warming
his seat for 40 years instead of retiring.

~~~
gwern
The Ukraine, Armenia, and USSR != Estonia. Estonia is regularly ranked as one
of the least corrupt countries in the world, on par with Japan:
[https://www.transparency.org/country/EST](https://www.transparency.org/country/EST)
, among the many other superlatives you can find listed in
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia)
. (If he's going to worry about something, I would suggest that since he
worries about such rare events as movie theater shootings, he ought to worry a
lot more about Russia invading Estonia...)

~~~
sexydefinesher
Is Japan really that incorrupt when they have zaibatsus and Yakuza?

~~~
yulaow
The correct question is: how strong is corruption in other countries if Japan
is basically considered a no-corruption area even if they have zaibatsus and
Yakuza?

------
simonebrunozzi
This is great, but... Sunlight. I couldn't live in Estonia for a long time. I
need sunlight. Plenty of sunlight. I live in San Francisco, where the weather
is great. I am originally from Italy, where the weather is quite good
especially in the center/south.

I would love to live in Estonia, if not for the weather, and the loooong
winters.

Hard to solve this puzzle, I guess.

------
amaccuish
What's it like in Tallin? I'm thinking of going to study there after I'm
finished with my first degree? I like what they're doing to encourage startups
etc. Can you speak Estonian?

~~~
samjc
The weather is vastly different and very cold, but I enjoy and missed the
winter, and spring is almost here as well. The people are not as open to talk
to strangers, but I've noticed that once they do open up, they are fun, honest
people. I believe education is free over here, I haven't looked into it from
an immigrant's perspective. I don't speak Estonian, as I currently don't need
to... There are a bunch of tech companies who's primary language is English,
so the incentive is still low, but if we do decide to stay long-term, I plan
on learning it.

------
holydude
The grass is always greener on the other side. Being born in Europe and living
here is suffocating me.

~~~
dazc
Europe is a big place and covers at least 6 different kinds of lifestyle and 3
kinds of weather. That's a few shades of grass to try before you give up
entirely?

~~~
abqwe
+1. And do not need a visa if you are European.

~~~
luckydata
Unless, you know, you're British and your fellow countrymen decided to go
crazy all at the same time.

~~~
guitarbill
I know you're being humorous, but to spell it out: They aren't crazy, they're
simply like that.

And, like the article says, you have options. For anybody still on the fence,
I can't recommend leaving the UK enough.

