

The bad news: My $4000 Mac Pro may be killing me - visakhcr
http://www.inquisitr.com/4326/the-bad-news-my-4000-mac-pro-may-be-killing-me-the-good-news-if-true-apple-will-put-the-next-10-generations-of-my-family-through-private-school/

======
zach
Relax. The Smell is just there for the first few months, and its purpose is
merely to stimulate certain nerve centers. In time, The Smell's absence leads
you subconsciously to buy another new Apple product. Your mind rationalizes
these thoughts with respect to the various desirable features and aesthetics
of Apple products, but your emotional centers of the brain are merely seeking
another experience of The Smell.

That was the theory a few guys at work came up with anyhow. I think it has at
least as much credence as this article.

------
jcromartie
I would like to use this as an opportunity to encourage people to stay away
from foods with potassium/sodium benzoate as a preservative. This nasty stuff
actually has potential to form benzene in _foods_. Don't poison yourself.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene_in_soft_drinks>

~~~
jrockway
Good advice.

My general policy is that if the ingredient isn't in my kitchen, I probably
don't want to eat food containing it.

In the case of preservatives, it may benefit the company that uses them since
their food won't spoil on the shelf -- but it doesn't benefit _me_ in any way.
So why risk whatever the long-term effects are when you are not even being
rewarded?

~~~
timr
_"In the case of preservatives, it may benefit the company that uses them
since their food won't spoil on the shelf -- but it doesn't benefit me in any
way."_

You only think that way because you've grown up with the luxury of a food
supply that is well-protected against a huge number of scourges that were
killing significant numbers of people less than a century ago.

Without preservatives, a huge number of the foods we take for granted today
(such as canned foods) would be impossible to produce. So unless you
can/pickle/preserve all of your own vegetables (which still carries a
significant risk of botulism), it's pretty difficult to say that preservatives
don't benefit you.

~~~
jcromartie
I don't buy it. I can go to a store like Trader Joe's, where they deal almost
entirely in packaged foods, and there are no industrial-era preservatives to
be found. Pasteurization and sterile containers go a long way.

------
iigs
I suspect if your Mac was going to kill you your car already would have.
Gasoline (in the USA) can be up to 5% benzene by volume.

I don't have numbers, but I suspect that one hot-day fill of your car exposes
you to more benzene than anything that an entirely dry piece of personal
electronics could outgas, ever.

~~~
silentbicycle
Cigarette smoke is a more direct source of benzene.

(Ergo, do not smoke while using a Mac Pro and covered in gasoline.)

~~~
tlrobinson
Benzene would certainly be the least of your worries in that case.

~~~
silentbicycle
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understatement>

------
river_styx
Right. So these Mac Pros are releasing trace amounts of benzene, which _may_
cause cancer or death in _high_ doses. Nothing like a little sensationalism
early in the morning.

~~~
davidw
It causes cancer:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Health_effects>

That said, the article is still pretty sensationalistic.

~~~
palish
That's true, but irrelevant. If I may borrow Mr. Jaynes' words:

    
    
      For example, to tell us that a sugar substitute is dangerous in doses 
      a thousand times greater than would ever be encountered in practice, 
      is hardly an argument against using the substitute; indeed, the fact 
      that it is necessary to go to kilodoses in order to detect any ill 
      effects at all, is rather conclusive evidence, not of the danger, 
      but of the safety, of a tested substance. A similar overdose of sugar 
      would be far more dangerous, leading not to barely detectable harmful 
      effects, but to sure, immediate death by diabetic coma; yet nobody has 
      proposed to ban the use of sugar in food."
    

( source: <http://www-biba.inrialpes.fr/Jaynes/prob.html> )

The key fact to remember is that it is the _amount_ of Benzene that matters,
not just that it is present.

~~~
davidw
> irrelevant

It's not _known_ if it's relevant or not. It might be, it might not. Without
having further information, it's simply impossible to say.

~~~
palish
Why is it not known? It seems like an experiment should have already been
done.

For example, one could arrange an experiment with two groups of rats. The
active group R would be administered very low doses of Benzene, whereas the
control group C would not. Then, both groups would be studied over a
sufficient period of time. If rats from R develop cancer and rats from C
don't, then it is known that Benzene _does_ cause cancer at low doses.
Otherwise, if the experiment is repeated a sufficient number of times, the
chance that Benzene causes cancer in low doses is statistically irrelevant.

Our points are the same: it is not generally known whether cancer can actually
be caused by low doses of Benzene, so it is detrimental to freak over
sensationalist articles like this one.

Also, it is especially distasteful to frighten people by claiming that there
is some measure of truth ("science") in these inherently unscientific claims.

~~~
davidw
What is unknown is what the Mac computers are giving off, if anything, and in
what quantities. Without that, it's impossible to even start talking about
benzene.

~~~
palish
I don't understand. From the article:

    
    
      According to Liberation.fr (english translation), as reported on ZDNet,
      the odor being emitted from Mac Pros manufactured before 2008 includes a 
      number of chemicals including Benzene, a known carcinogen that in high 
      doses is lethal.
    

So we're saying the same thing... I think? If the report is unconfirmed, then
this article is extremely objectionable because the implication is that _Mac
Pros kill people_ (which would rightfully freak people out), but there is no
supporting evidence. So therefore, the story might as well have been
completely made up.

~~~
davidw
Like I said, it's a sensationalist article. Without knowing the composition
and quantities involved, it's impossible to say anything with certainty.

~~~
palish
Correct, but it's impossible to say anything with absolute certainty. However,
we can judge the _probabilities_ based on our previous experiences. So my
assertions are:

\- There are claims that Mac Pros emit an odor that contains Benzene.

\- It's unlikely that the amount of Benzene is enough to be statistically
dangerous, or even the source of the odor itself.

\- Therefore, this article is pointless.

------
sant0sk1
Microsoft's next ad: "Hi, I'm a PC and I won't kill you"

~~~
icky
Lies!

------
maxklein
Well, I can confirm that my grandfather died 3 months after visiting an apple
store. Could this be why?!!?!?

~~~
patrickg-zill
Actually, my research shows that EVERY person who has ever visited an Apple
store, will DIE.

~~~
maxklein
[Citation Needed]

~~~
jimbokun
<http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39236>

------
parenthesis
You might want to just read the originating article:

[http://translate.google.fr/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.libe...](http://translate.google.fr/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liberation.fr%2Fterre%2F010133618-mac-
pro-le-pepin-toxique-pour-apple&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&sl=fr&tl=en)

~~~
ovi256
Yeah, it's a bit less dramatic, but it mentions the same facts: benzene
present in the fumes, and its known toxicity.

------
h34t
Cars also give off loads of nasty fumes (new car smell anyone?).

My sister cancelled an order for a Nissan Versa because of its horrible rating
on healthycar.org (lists all cars and how bad they are for this) and didn't
want to risk it with her newborn.

~~~
akd
Yes, have you ever seen the film that accumulates on the inside windshield of
some cars on a very sunny day? It's vaporized and then condensed dashboard
material :\

~~~
h34t
Yeah -- nasty stuff, and it keeps accumulating for years. My brother had a '91
Dodge Colt that would always get that film on the windshield.

------
cosmo7
If you're concerned, benzene smells like almonds.

~~~
silentbicycle
As does hydrogen cyanide. I think it's a good generalization to assume that
anything which smells like almonds is toxic unless you're _really_ sure it's
actually almonds.

------
randrews
The part I found most interesting is that Mac Pros emit some odor. I've had
one for over a year and I haven't noticed anything.

------
shadytrees
Also, ripens fruits!

------
visakhcr
anyone think there is some fact in this??

~~~
pistoriusp
I've been working on a pre-2008 Mac Pro for a year now. I have noticed that I
often have headaches, and this is not a regular occurrence for me.

Of course it has not rained in Johannesburg, South Africa yet... it's a few
weeks overdue and my sinus might be at fault.

But I am slightly concerned.

~~~
metatronscube
I would not be too concerned about things like this, there are far more
harmful carcinogenic materials around you....such as synthetic drugs,
herbicides, pesticides, metal in your old fillings..etc (I could go on)

The harmful components used in the construction of the cases are in such small
quantities that its almost a non concern!

------
TweedHeads
The trick here is "may be"

See? Deceptive marketing, people just read the headline, gets scared and never
buys a mac for fear.

Ask yourself this question, who is so ethically wrong to be behind this ad?

Who benefits the most from the damage it may cause a competitor?

There is the answer...

~~~
h34t
Or, look at science for the answer, and discover that toxins off-gassing from
products and homes are a largely underreported phenomenon with far-ranging
effects on the human body.

------
lst
One major question would be: how much can we trust current science? If I had a
nickel for all the times I heard that carcinogen argument...

~~~
ulysses
As opposed to what, our gut?

If I got a nickel every time someone died of cancer, I'd be rich. And probably
have a massive guilt complex.

~~~
lst
Science changes opinion quite often (this is an observed fact).

If someone dies because of cancer, you're never sure about the _real_ reason.
If used wrong, quite everything may provoke cancer... we all are continuously
exposed to so many dangerous things.

There isn't even a simple answer to what cancer really is -- it's more the
description of a symptom, and not the _real_ cause...

~~~
silentbicycle
Scientific method serves to develop progressively more accurate theories by
testing hypotheses and discarding those that do not stand up to scrutiny. It
"changes opinion" because while scientific understanding is influenced by
intellectual trends, cultural dogma, political pressure to manufacture
evidence, etc., its fundamental emphasis on testing works as a corrective
force in the long run. (As Kuhn noted in _The Structure of Scientific
Revolutions_, if the old generation refuses to let go of old models a
generation may pass before new ideas are really accepted, but such change can
be measured in years rather than millennia.)

~~~
lst
Only few scientists are sincere to themselves -- most are following some
ideology, and so they are highly biased...

~~~
silentbicycle
Sometimes true, but science has self-correcting measures that compensate for
this eventually.

In contrast, religion could (in these terms) be characterized as a process in
which someone has a revelation and tries to pass it on, it gradually becomes
distorted through transmission, and there are recurring attempts to return to
the original vision.

~~~
lst
> Sometimes true, but science has self-correcting measures that compensate for
> this eventually.

I completely agree: but sometimes you have to wait _centuries_ for this to
happen...

~~~
silentbicycle
But it _actually happens_ , which is pretty remarkable in light of the rest of
human history.

