
Surface Pro 3 - ismavis
http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/05/23/surface-pro-3
======
kgermino
I think this shows how dedicated the Surface Pro team at Microsoft is to
making a rock solid product. Yes there's issues with branding, Windows 8 tries
to be too many things at once, and it seems like the company as a whole
(including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in
five years; but I think the total focus on making the experience as good as
possible combined with Microsoft's budget and a little time will yield very
impressive results. I certainly hope so.

I love the vision of the Surface Pro with a good dock. A single device that
can be docked with monitors and a real keyboard/mouse, used as a laptop or
carried as a tablet would make an awesome machine. It seems they are there in
principle right now but need some time to get it polished enough to be usable
for most.

Too soon to count Microsoft out regardless.

~~~
justin66
> Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once

That is a very, very generous description of Windows 8.

edit: it is amusing to me that THIS is the first comment I've made that some
clique decided to go medieval on.

~~~
edias
Windows 8 really isn't that bad.

I avoided it like the plague when it was first released mainly due to the lack
of start menu but between the 8.1 update and classic shell maturing a bit, I
basically see it as a faster Windows 7 (especially start up on an SSD). I have
some minor complaints but so long as I never have to enter the metro UI I've
been pretty happy with it overall.

~~~
justin66
I see what you're saying but there's no "never show me anything Metro, ever"
checkbox, and for me that's a problem. I've got a Lenovo touchpad and the user
experience over the months has involved learning not to accidentally make all
the myriad gestures that cause Windows 8 to do something stupid.

I keep discovering new ones, I think in part due to the 8.1 update. Perhaps
that's not why, it's hard to say. This is all a purely negative process for
me: trying to keep the PC from doing something I don't want it to do.
Apparently driver writers and Microsoft don't want to give you an official
"make this trackpad not act stupid" option, either, last I checked.

~~~
lelandriordan
Thats Lenovo's fault not Microsoft's, drivers haven't been a problem in ages.
I have both a Macbook Retina and desktop gaming PC. I hand built the PC and
all of the drivers automatically downloaded and installed. The only thing I
ever did after that was update AMD Catalyst for my 280x's, but that was my
choice; it worked fine before I updated. You probably updated to 8.1 before
Lenovo updated its drivers or bought an old touchpad that was actually meant
for Windows 7 and is no longer supported by them. Touchpad's are also a niche
product use case, 99% of users use mice, laptop track-pads or touchscreens.
Thus touchpads will never be a priority for driver development teams.

As for the learning curve, have you ever seen a lifetime Windows user try
someone else's Mac? Hot Corners drive them absolutely crazy, or they will
accidentally pinch to zoom or they will scroll by mistake and not realize
whats happening. There is always a learning curve, even in the most user
friendly operating systems like iOS. And what actual computer do you have? The
problem is people use a $400 Dell and then compare it to a $2000 Retina or
$1200 Air. The Surface Pro 3 is a premium Apple like device, and what do you
know, early reviews from places like The Verge say its the best possible
Windows 8 experience. My Mac and my PC cost about the same, and I love each of
them for different reasons. Each OS has its own pros and cons.

As for metro, what are you doing that causes Metro to show up? On my desktop,
I have almost never seen it since 8.1 came out. Once you enable boot to
desktop and pin your most widely used programs to the taskbar, the only time
it ever shows up is when you are looking for a rarely used program. Even then
it is actually pretty good when you think of it as nothing more than an
advanced start menu replacement. And in the next update MS is making an option
to do just that: [http://www.pcworld.com/article/2138443/rejoice-the-start-
men...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/2138443/rejoice-the-start-menu-is-
coming-back-to-windows.html). The real problem is Windows doesn't
automatically detect what hardware is connected and change the settings to
ones like these automatically.

~~~
sdrothrock
I can't speak for Lenovo, but here's my experience with an Asus laptop.

When I use my right index finger to move the cursor around, if my palm nudges
the palm rest, it usually activates some kind of gesture that switches to
Metro.

If I use my right index finger to move the cursor around and my left index
finger or thumb to click, then that activates some gesture that switches to
metro.

If I'm typing and my palms touch the mousepad, that activates some gesture
that switches to metro.

If you've never seen it once on your desktop, I would guess that it's because
you don't have a touchpad that lets Windows interpret random touches as a "go
to metro now!" command.

~~~
pooper
I won't say it works for everyone but on my Lenovo y510p, I can change the
settings for the ELAN pointing device to disable my trackpad when there is an
external mouse attached. If I have to use the computer for more than a few
minutes, I make sure I plug in my mouse. (It isn't made to be an ultraportable
/ on top of a lap laptop notebook computer as the air intake is at the
bottom.)

The surface would, of course, need to work well without a mouse. Perhaps the
pen could be used as a pointing device in desktop mode as well?

------
hyperliner
It has to be really frustrating to be an engineer working on Surface and
having to deal with the HN echo chamber, or MS bashing (some from Apple
fanboys), or totally unrelated comments.

Maybe it should be a rule that these folks below post their own product for
review. Hopefully they have something significant that can be open to
critique.

Of course, that would not be too much fun.

\- nivla: "Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are
their signature."

\- rasz_pl: "...rock solid product.. notice the number 3 in the name of said
product? and still not good enough. Not to mention UI lags. 2014 and GUI is
lagging. Someone needs to get shot."

\- justin66 "> Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once That is a very,
very generous description of Windows 8."

\- jodrellblank: "2014, Intel Core i5, SSD and stutters when 'browsing files'
in PS. shakes head"

\- carlio: "I feel a little cynical by saying this, but does Microsoft really
care about artists as much as they care about the audience they're reaching
via Penny Arcade?"

\- enraged_camel: "It's the execution that is lacking significantly. I've
always said that Microsoft is really, really good at engineering, and really,
really bad at UX and usability. After reading Gabe's review, I'm disappointed
that this is still the case."

[EDIT: Software to "product" \+ line breaks]

~~~
HNJohnC
In fairness, just the single fact that they put a button exactly where the
hand needs to go when actually using the product in one of it's core use-cases
is a pretty good excuse for some MS bashing.

They could have taken 5 minutes, given the prototype to an artist and noticed
the hand placement issue immediately.

You can be an apologist if you wish, but I don't know how you can excuse such
a glaring failure of design.

~~~
shurcooL
Saying that it's a "failure of design" suggests there's an easy non-failure
alternative. If so, can you tell us what it is? Are you sure that solution
won't fail under some conditions?

People like to take something that exists, take the problems it solves as a
given, and act like all that's left is fixing the problems remaining. That's
not how it works.

~~~
anonymfus
Solution could be the same as for palm rejection: disable start button when
pen is near the screen.

------
nileshtrivedi
People have been able to run Ubuntu on Surface Pro 2 but it took some effort
(custom kernel etc). If this has improved and if the new Surface pro can dual-
boot Ubuntu without any issues, I'd definitely buy one. The hardware concept
is too tempting.

~~~
noisy_boy
I've always wondered what stops MS for making it easier for Linux to be
installed on their products.

There will always be a class of people who will stick with Windows and they
don't/won't care about Linux compatibility anyway. So nothing to lose there.

Then there is the un-captured "technical/Linux user" segment to whom they can
sell Surface so thats more devices sold. Unless they are making a loss on the
device just to push Windows - even then, at least this segment would
appreciate the quality of the device (and this segment tends to care about/be
more loyal to quality) which is the kind of impression you want to make on
people. If nothing else, that is a good to have thing for future devices.

------
coreymgilmore
Very well written review. I myself was worried about the switch to N-trig
(having dealt with a few products in the past), but I glad to hear it is a
non-issue. To me, the additional size is great. While I like the portability
of a tablet, having the extra screen real-estate makes me more productive and
thus worth the trade off of a larger physical size device. I think MS's third
attempt at a tablet is finally the tablet/laptop/combo that I have been
waiting for.

------
Pxtl
Counter-point on surface-pro by another webcomic author:

[http://www.pvponline.com/news/surface-pro-vs-the-
cintiq-13hd](http://www.pvponline.com/news/surface-pro-vs-the-cintiq-13hd)

Basically, Scott Kurtz found that the stylus lag on _every_ tablet was so bad
that he ended up using his Wacom Cintiq, which requires a wall-outlet.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
How did Kurtz get access to a Surface Pro 3 in January?

~~~
Pxtl
To clarify, this is about an older model surface pro, however Krahulik/Gabriel
indicated that the SP3 didn't improve on the pen lag that seems to plague the
entire form-factor.

I just brought it up because Krahulik is one of the louder cheerleaders of the
Surface Pro line, and so one of his colleagues in the same field that
disagrees is worth reading too, even if that article is now a bit dated with
the launch of the SP3.

------
localhost
Looks like the Core i7 version is the i7-4650U model, with HD5000 graphics.

Details in Ed Bott's article: [http://www.zdnet.com/which-cpus-will-you-find-
in-the-surface...](http://www.zdnet.com/which-cpus-will-you-find-in-the-
surface-pro-3-7000029820/)

Link to Intel specs: [http://ark.intel.com/products/75114/Intel-
Core-i7-4650U-Proc...](http://ark.intel.com/products/75114/Intel-
Core-i7-4650U-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_30-GHz)

~~~
Deinos
Just saw that at neowin. Very tempted with the i7 now. I wonder how that will
affect battery life.

~~~
JBiserkov
From what I understand, it should actually be better for the battery life, as
it has a lower base clock

[http://ark.intel.com/compare/76308,75114](http://ark.intel.com/compare/76308,75114)

------
girvo
I'll never understand why the comments on certain products and brands end up
being so vitriolic and "my Dad can beat up your Dad!"-styled discussions are
considered par for the course.

Frankly, I have Apple everything, because it works for me. My family use a lot
of Windows and Microsoft products, because it works for them.

At the end of the day, these are tools, not lifestyles. I think we'd all do
well to remember that you are not your gadgets...

~~~
exodust
Agreed, but I think reasonable people can filter out the pointless childish
noise, and find the useful information and opinions.

Me, I'm trying to break into 3D design in my "spare time" and I need either a
Wacom Cintiq or one of these Surface Pros for painting on 3d textures in
applications such as Substance Painter. I am undecided. The Cintiq looks
really nice as a permanent workstation tool, but relies on a computer to run
the application. Perhaps I need to accept that what I am wishing for is merely
an input device for my main computer, rather than a completely separate
computer.

------
morbius
I've been a believer in the Surface concept since the beginning. I'd bought a
Surface 2 last year and was blown away by just how unique and incredibly
inventive the design was. The 16:9 screen and the lack of power really
suffered it, though...

But like the MacBook Air, three generations in, and it looks like this is
going to be Microsoft's Hail Mary.

I preordered one.

~~~
listic
Do you think 3 will be really better than the 2?

I'm still waiting for my 2 and I'm not convinced. I'm going to try to
"upgrade" from a 12" ThinkPad X series and I really liked that the screen size
is smaller. All the other changes don't necessarily feel like an upgrade to
me, too.

~~~
lstamour
Every time I used my Surface Pro (1st gen), I lamented that the screen wasn't
bigger. You really feel like you're missing a third of possible screen real
estate. Hence why I'm excited about the 3:2 aspect ratio. I always figured the
Chromebook Pixel was on to something ;-)

~~~
listic
I don't know, I'm using a 12" Thinkpad X and I feel like I could bear if the
screen would be a tad smaller, so I was excited about a prospect of a 10.6"
tablet/laptop. I guess, I'll wait and see: Surrface Pro 3's are not going
anywhere, not sure about the older models. Unlike Thinkpads, I'm afraid
Microsoft made not very many of these. Sorry for the accessories though: the
innovative things like Freedomcase just started to appear for the old form
factor. [http://www.freedomcase.com/](http://www.freedomcase.com/)

------
lstamour
My only worry with buying the Surface Pro 3 is how I was burned by the Surface
Pro 2 late last year when I got an original Surface Pro early last year. Very
much like the iPad, they seem to be releasing new Surfii every 6-9 months.
Since this model isn't available at launch with the i7 and only has Intel 4400
graphics, I expect early next year to see a bump in specs, perhaps Intel 5100
(or better) graphics by next March? Which has me wondering if I should buy now
or hold off. If they had the ntrig bluetooth pen with OneNote integration in a
smaller form factor for cheaper, I'd buy that first right now and wait for the
larger device to get a bump in performance. That said, no question -- if you
want OneNote for school in September or can afford to upgrade once a year, buy
now. The only thing I wish it had was a touch-optimized terminal app with tabs
;-)

~~~
sliverstorm
Should you wait? Just answer the question, "Does it meet my needs?". If you
aren't going to use it to draw in Photoshop (for example), it may not make a
lick of difference whether you have the i7, or which graphics chip it has.

~~~
lstamour
It is equally true that the smoothest ink experience is within Microsoft apps
such as OneNote. And so, by far, it should have enough performance for note-
taking regardless... Well, at worst Microsoft does have a return policy :)

------
interpol_p
I'm really pleased to hear about how good the NTrig digitiser is. Seems like
an awesome painting tool.

------
richardw
What kills me about this thing is that it's still an almost-notebook. They
take a tablet and make you choose to run almost-Windows or Windows. It's most
visible difference to other tablets is a great keyboard concept, but it's not
quite a notebook in that it now needs a kickstand to stand up. I'd rather have
a notebook that has a rational keyboard that holds the screen at whatever
angle than something that is almost exactly the same, but somehow inferior.

I'm really not against the whole idea of a Windows tablet, but if the keyboard
is that important...just make a keyboard that handles the weight of the
screen. In fact, the keyboard I bought for my mother-in-law's iPad does that
just fine (minus the variable-angle) so I'd still rather have the iPad or
Android tablets. Or a well-executed ultrabook. Easier for working on the
couch/plane/train etc.

Still, I'll forward this article to an artist friend. It looks great for a
drawing tablet and maybe it'll work for him.

------
ChuckMcM
Being left handed I wouldn't have the problem Gabe does, instead I'd be
activating a half dozen tools on the left margin of the screen. I appreciate
the 'wrist' input for the JOT stylus which lets you tell it where you rest
your hand normally.

I'll definitely try out the SP3, and I'm still trying to get my hands on a
Samsung Note Pro (12" tab). The screen is what I crave, a 12" 3:2 aspect ratio
screen with 2160 x 1440 feels pretty close to ideal in this form factor.

~~~
ygra
The touch screen itself would be disabled when you use the pen. It's just that
the Windows button on the right side is a hardware button (just touch, too)
and doesn't disable itself like the rest of the screen.

~~~
jdmichal
I'd imagine one of the "special options" he's going to be getting from MS is a
version which does exactly that; disable the home button with the pen input.

~~~
codeulike
Yeah that should be fixable in software - the screen itself can detect and
ignore palms

------
_asciiker_
As an old MCSE I am happy to see the Surface 3 reviews, for me (an Android
tablet user) this means Microsoft is fighting not to lose the tablet race. The
idea of replacing the laptop with a very well designed keyboard "docking
station" is brilliant. And it does seem that they did do everything else
right!

~~~
vacri
As a Thinkpad user, I have bad memories of docking stations. They're nice to
have, but they're ridiculously expensive for a hunk of plastic and some
interconnects.

~~~
noisy_boy
As a Dell user, I couldn't get my _Dell_ monitor working with _Dell_ E-Port
Plus Port Replicator docking station (USD 219) when used with my _Dell_ E7240
laptop - in Linux (and this laptop has the option of selling with Ubuntu).
Dell support were very patient and after 1 hour and docking station firmware
update later (done via Windows obviously), it still doesn't work. Works fine
in Windows (but only after firmware update).

Now I use the "hunk of plastic" as a tilting platform to let the laptop vent
exhale easier.

------
smrtinsert
3:2 I need this so badly. I hope they solve the lag and handedness issues I
really want to love this device.

~~~
rplnt
Finally. A step in the right direction. Wide screen on small desktop-like
devices is just stupid. It's OK on tablets and such, but on notebooks? Why
anyone thought it's a good idea?

~~~
mikevm
I don't think 16:9 is good on anything, not even for movies. Heck, movies are
usually shot in a much wider format anyway.

On tablets and small devices it's even worse. There's a reason why Apple used
4:3 on the iPod -- it's because they're actually thoughtful and pay a lot of
attention to the design and use cases of their products, unlike Samsung and
others who simply slap together whatever's cheaper (AFAIK 16:9 panels are more
cost effective for them) and shove it at consumers.

------
enscr
The app shown in the pictures is "Manga Studio"

------
orionblastar
I mean yes it is good for art and drawing cartoons.

I have tried every Surface tablet and I don't like them. Just my opinion. I
got a Nook HD+ that works better and cost less, and will sell it now that Nook
tablets are not updated anymore and maybe buy a Kindle HDX to replace it. Even
the Android tablets are more responsive.

My son has an iPad that is faster as well and it is only an iPad 3.

We can get pens for them that draw art and cartoons.

Just my opinion, the Surface could work better for others in different things.
But for me and my son, we chose a different tablet due to the Surface being
sluggish and locking up at times when we demoed it at the Microsoft store.

~~~
jamesbritt
Which of these other devices provide pressure-sensitive drawing, and how well
does it work?

I'm curious because that's a feature that can be the deciding factor for me.

~~~
orionblastar
For Android:
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dsandler.a...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dsandler.apps.markers)

For iOS: [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/procreate-sketch-paint-
creat...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/procreate-sketch-paint-
create./id425073498?mt=8)

Pressure sensitive stylus:
[http://www.adonit.net/jot/touch/](http://www.adonit.net/jot/touch/)

From what I know all iPads and Android tablets have pressure sensitive apps
and touch screens and you can buy a stylus that supports it as well.

My son draws for school on both the iPad and Nook. We don't seem to have any
issues nor do we need Photoshop and other expensive software.

There are attachable bluetooth keyboards for Android and iPad tablets that
work better than the Surface ones. I don't know why people seem to think that
only Surface has an attachable keyboard and stand?

I mean these features were standard and options standard with iOS and Android
before the Surface tablets marketed them as exclusive to the Surface series
only.

For iPad devices go to an Apple store.

For Android tablets some of the mobile carriers might be able to demo them for
you.

Don't take my word for it, what my son and I like might not meet your
standards. Look for yourself, but don't think that only the Surface has those
features.

~~~
jamesbritt
Thanks for this, very useful.

 _From what I know all iPads and Android tablets have pressure sensitive apps
and touch screens and you can buy a stylus that supports it as well._

I've an Asus Transformer Prime TF201. Runs Android. Nice enough for certain
kinds of drawing, but no pressure-sensitive screen.

Perhaps now they all have this, but it wasn't standard a few years ago.

Markers looks like an interesting hack; I will give that a try.

I've yet to find an Android drawing program that gets everything right though.

What makes the Surface 3 so appealing is that I've already some Windows apps
I'm happy with for Wacom-driven drawing. Running those on a tablet would be
ideal.

------
jodrellblank
2014, Intel Core i5, SSD and stutters when 'browsing files' in PS.

 _shakes head_

~~~
higherpurpose
Probably because there's no magic in how they made it so thin for an Intel
machine - they just underclocked it a ton in order to achieve a minimal TDP
and not need huge air vents, free space and fans.

~~~
codeulike
it has fans

------
ryan-allen
I just bought a Surface 2 Pro 4 weeks ago. It is an awesome piece of hardware.

The pen is great, I use it to sketch up stuff in OneNote like I would in my
regular notebook.

I connect it to an external display and use a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse at
work, and I confuse people by running a fullscreen mintty.exe with terminal
vim in my linux VM.

The stand is why I bought it over a Dell Venue or a Lenovo Helix (even though
I think the Helix is the best offering).

It's a brilliant machine. I sold my Macbook Air 11" to buy it too! I sure hope
Apple make something like this one day that runs proper OS X :)

------
hyp0
It's interesting that there doesn't appear to be lag when he's actually
drawing.

------
instaheat
I'm not too sure about that drafting board profile. Having not seen the device
in person, at that angle it looks like it might break. Is there some form of
support running along that line?

~~~
lstamour
The hinge actually looks quite sturdy to me:
[http://www.wpcentral.com/sites/wpcentral.com/files/styles/la...](http://www.wpcentral.com/sites/wpcentral.com/files/styles/large_wm_blb/public/field/image/2014/05/Surface_Pro_3_hinge_pen.jpg?itok=SO_sLsIt)

------
gcb0
i waited for this tablet release, and then, seconds before the impulse buy i
remembered i should wait for Gabe reviews :) ...saved by the bell!

that said, i'm still anxious to a tablet with a decent perf/battery life and a
good pen. tired of only consuming content on tablets. and i'm sure a keyboard
is not feasible anytime soon. while i could already code with my palm custom
pen input... albeit painfully, it was less painful then any apple soft
keyboard.

~~~
JimmaDaRustla
Reading other comments, the i7 version has better graphics, hopefully not
laggy...and hopefully a software fix to disable home button when pen is in
range...but...the i7 ain't cheap.

------
vfclists
Apple shills or what?

------
snarfy
The Penny Arcade guys live a little too close to Redmond for me to believe
their reviews of Microsoft products are unbiased.

~~~
Gigablah
If you read the article, he's actually quite critical of the product.

~~~
snarfy
Ack. I read right up to the 'now the frustrating stuff' without seeing it and
closed the tab thinking 'not more of this crap from PA'.

I stand corrected.

------
carlio
Gabe has written some very complimentary things about the Surface in the past,
it's no wonder they're eager to hear his opinions and tell him what he wants
to hear. "Yes Mr Gabe, we really like artists, like a whole bunch. Please
write some more nice things!"

I feel a little cynical by saying this, but does Microsoft really care about
artists as much as they care about the audience they're reaching via Penny
Arcade?

~~~
FreezerburnV
Does it really matter if they care about artists or not in this case? In order
for them to get good publicity to the audience of Penny Arcade, they have to
cater to artists. (assuming you aren't cynical enough to believe that Gabe is
just a shill for Microsoft, which he likely is not) If Surface 4 comes out and
they don't fix any of the issues Gabe has mentioned, and they send him one to
review, he'll point out that things were not fixed, and they were obviously
not listening. I think at that point it would be valid to say they don't care,
but the way things are described, it does sound like they're trying to improve
the product, at least for the specific niche Gabe occupies.

~~~
hagbardgroup
Remember "I'm a Mac / I'm a PC?" The loyalty that Apple built up among
creative professionals has under-girded their entire brand. If you were
Microsoft, and you saw a chance to knock some of those people loose, wouldn't
you work like hell to make that happen?

This would also be an example of MS improving its touch in terms of attempting
to persuade people about Surface. Rather than just repeating over and over
about how great [tabletX] is and how a celebrity they've paid to endorse it
just loves it (see HP's disastrous TV campaigns for their tablets), they're
letting an influential guy use it, review it, and criticize it publicly. The
critical bits are what make it more effective as commercial messaging for MS'
particular purposes at this moment.

If Gabe were shilling they would pay him directly to shill and it would be
marked as an ad (which PA has done many times before for many companies). In
this case, that's probably not happening.

~~~
stonemetal
He is getting(and keeping) free hardware, I would consider that getting paid.
He clearly states he got the item under review for free and once he complained
about the performance they said they would ship him a high performance model
for free as well. They used to give away any such free loot specifically to
avoid the shilling moral hazard.

~~~
hagbardgroup
So take it into account in your evaluation of the product. Every magazine
reviewer on the planet gets 'free' items to review.

------
richard_cubano
He says that the reduction in sensitivity on the digitizer "scared the hell
out of [him]."

Why do people say stuff like this? You know what scares the hell out of me?
Getting mauled by a bear.

~~~
lightyrs
Hyperbole is what's known as a "rhetorical device"
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_device](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_device))
— a technique that an author or speaker uses to convey to the listener or
reader a meaning with the goal of persuading him or her towards considering a
topic from a different perspective, using sentences designed to encourage or
provoke a rational argument from an emotional display of a given perspective
or action.

