

Ask HN: Has anyone been where I am? Bunt out? - billpatrianakos

A year ago I was working a Sonic Drive Thru as a burger-flipping manager for $10/hr taking home $800 a month. I was 24 and recently kicked a 4+ year heroin/polydrug addiction. Despite the terrible decisions that led me there I've always been pretty damn bright. After high school I was accepted to Loyola University in Chicago and was doing the ore-med thing. Then I did the drug thing for a solid few years and then finally kicked it for what I hope is forever last October. In between I went to different colleges and basically failed out for lack of focus as I was too focused on getting my fix. It was sad, especially for someone with so much potential.<p>I'd always had a strong interest in technology and programming. When my parents got the Internet in '96 I was fascinated by this thing they called code and I absolutely had to learn how to do it too! So I did. I built hundreds of awfully designed web pages that are probably Still lingering on a ton of free hosts to this day.<p>Sorry to bore you but this bit of history is necessary for context (at least I think so). In 2008 I was still just enrolled in classes just to be enrolled and leeching off my parents' good will which was running out quickly. It was then I decided I'd become a professional web designer. I tried my hardest to learn the latest and greatest CSS and HTML and I also happened to have a very lucky chance encounter with Larry Masters of CakePHP fame which led me to get a decent handle on that language as well. (He was reading web dev books in a Barnes and Noble and I struck up a conversation not knowing who he was or what CakePHP was. He told me if I could learn PHP well enough he'd give me a job. It never happened).<p>After living this awful, sad, depressing existence with no ambition or hope for any kind of meaningful future something just snapped in me. It was December 31st of 2010 and I was working my third straight holiday in a row without overtime pay at this job that I absolutely couldn't stand anymore. I had talked with a friend a few weeks earlier and she told me I should just freelance. It was then on new years eve that I closed down the restaurant right there and then, locked the doors, told the owner to go to hell, and I decided to become a professional web developer.<p>I got my first client for free, the second and third landed me a mere $400-$500 each and 11 months later I'm up to 10 times that amount per job. I'm doing well for myself but now I've hit a wall.<p>I read HN every morning (sometimes noon and evening too) and I see all you smart people and I look at myself and think "I'm just another wannabe designer/developer/entrepreneur". I would hate to be just another wannabe. Despite the fact that business has been good to me for a solid year I'm still living at home and I still can't afford to fix my beater car and though I've made incredible progress, I'm still far behind where I should be let alone where I <i>want</i> to be.<p>I'm my only employee. I need more but can't afford them. But then I can't make more money without more help. So is it the chicken or the egg?<p>I feel like I've gone as far as I can. The hours are long, I over extend and give myself too short of deadlines. "Well quit doing that!" you say? Never! It's how I made this far. My skills have improved so much too. But I still feel like a fraud. Like one of those countless others who learn HTML and put on their "Web Designer!" badges while the real designers and programmers scoff at them.<p>So the point is, I think I've burned out. I need to get where I want to go but my motivation is almost tapped out. I'm exhausted but I have no choice but to continue on.<p><i>The point is</i>... is this common? Has it happened to you? The articles haven't helped, do you know how to beat this? How can I get out of this rut?<p>Thanks ahead of time to anyone who ends up reading this. I'm pretty embarrassed writing this and hate to sound whiny. I'm at my wit's end. Has anyone been where I am?
======
hack_edu
Most importantly, stop the urges to compare yourself with the 'typical' or
'ideal' Hacker News contributor. Nobody besides PG or Peter Norvig live up to
this ideal. Development comes in so many forms, its really unbelievable how
many ways you can be a professional and successful developer. And with this,
you can only learn so much.

Its just like how the Facebook stream makes so many people feel sad; other
people only share what they want, essentially marketing themselves. There are
hundreds of successful and happy developers for every person on HN who rambles
on and on about reading SICP every weekend or writing their own compiler.

~~~
billpatrianakos
I love the Facebook stream comparison. I've thought about that before. It's
something we should all remember when the going gets tough.

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hardworkpaysoff
Hi... you're not alone.

I'm in my early twenties, at one point in my life there was a time when all I
cared about were drugs, how many I could do, how many I had done, and how
great of a time I could have on them.

Mixed with a bout of bad depression because my dad got sick it got to the
point where I lost sight of what was important in life.

In all honesty, I expected by now I'd be dead. Sometimes, I still do. It
wasn't till I had dropped out of college and started working a dead end job
that I decided it was time to change. The fear of being stuck there the rest
of my life and having lost all my potential from previous years was the
scariest thing I've ever felt in my life, but it was also probably the best
thing that could have happened to me..

I woke up at 4am, developed till I went in at 3pm, and then went straight to
bed when I got home at midnight. I did this for months and months having never
done any formal web programming before. I started with the basics, html and
css. From there I went on to php, ruby, js, and obj-c. Each one was
challenging.

All that stemmed from wanting to do "web design". Web programming gave me
plenty of challenges that were easy enough to solve with brute force and hard
work.

Don't give up. Keep challenging yourself. You're at your wits end and you say
you're exhausted, and that's understandable. Getting my life back on track
actually didn't start with programming for me, it started with exercise. I
recommend taking up something you've always enjoyed and that you can do once a
day. It will relieve stress and give you down time to relieve yourself from
the worries of the world, your life, and your objectives.

Work not just on your web talent, but your life talent. Your sleep talent,
your eating talent, your brain talent. Do puzzles. Challenge yourself. Don't
give up.

For me www.reddit.com/r/get_motivated has helped in a big way. I know that may
sound corny but fuck, sometimes those little quotes can do a lot for me. When
I wake up sad or when it feels like things aren't going like they should, it's
the little things that you need to do to get through to the next day.

You can get out of this rut by not giving up. By going on, working hard, and
not quitting. It may not happen in a day, a week, a month, a year, or even two
years. But as long as you keep going, one day it will happen.

If you need encouragement advice or help in any way, reply to my comment with
a way for me to contact you. You are not alone, brother.

------
md1515
Hey Bill, first of all kudos to you for kicking the habit and making the
decision to better yourself. Everyone makes mistakes and you have shown a lot
of resiliency which is key to being successful in anything.

I agree with what a couple other people have mentioned. You're not alone.
Almost everyone feels that way at one point in time - it's a fact of life. You
don't instantly become CEO...you have to work your way up.

Also, you should increase your prices a bit. There is a reason you are getting
web jobs and you need other people working for you. You are out of balance. If
you can't hire anyone then ideally you would like just the right amount of
work for you (meaning you lose some customers by raising the cost).

Finally, don't worry about which languages you know. If you know 5 languages,
but you're not fantastic at them then you're just average anyway. Specialize
in HTML, who cares? If you're the best you'll make money so keep learning.

By the way, don't buy into this whole American dream where you should go deep
into debt to mortgage a new house and car. Much of the world spends much
longer at home and 24 is by no means old, especially if you're saving money.
Keep driving that clunker and enjoying the time with your family while you
save your money.

Send me an email (in profile) if you want to talk some more.

~~~
billpatrianakos
I couldn't go deeper into debt if I tried! My past kind of killed my credit.
But I hear you on the American Dream. I certainly don't buy it. I just want a
nice life, a loving family, and satisfying career. I do what I do out of
passion, not for money. Im not about to delude myself into thinking I'll be a
self-made millionaire one day. No one is really self made. Its always a team
effort. But in any case, the idea is to get nice and stable, then reevaluate
the situation and aim higher if it makes sense. Thanks you for your comment. I
really appreciate it.

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grah4
"If you're going through hell, keep going."

First of all, congrats on getting this far. As you know, your consulting biz
is a straight services play and will only grow in relation to how many
employees you have. Increasing price to match demand will only get you so far
(unless you're a superstar). You do have a lot of options to grow depending on
what kind of work you want to do.

\- Build a network and do a rev share with other freelancers with different
specialities. This will allow you to offload tasks you are mediocre at and
focus on what you do well. This should increase network productivity and deal
flow IF you find the right people.

\- Expand on the cheap. Outsource specific tasks offshore. Do not outsource
entire projects. To outsource for cost, you must break down everything into
small manageable pieces.

\- Move into account management and client services. Find firms/other
freelancers who compete on cost and distribute your work over them. Quality
and profit per project will drop but you should be able to increase your
project flow significantly.

IMHO the best way is to build products and move out of services.

(I've done this a few times and currently have a small network of other
freelancers while I work at a bootstrapped company.)

------
kstenerud
Start charging more for your work. A LOT more. You want to be charging so much
that some of your potential clients balk. Bear in mind that the "balking" rate
follows a kind of inverse poisson distribution. You get the most price balkers
at the lower price points (the cheapskates). As you move towards the sweet
spot, the balkers quickly disappear. As you move further along, you cut off
more and more potential clients, but it's far more gradual than the original
uptick.

Keep raising your prices until you're at a point where you're not getting more
work than you can handle. That point is precisely how much your time is worth
in dollars.

It's not a question of how you rate vs other people. It's a question of how
much your customers pay you. If they're paying you and walking away satisfied,
you are a professional, not a fraud.

~~~
billpatrianakos
Thank you for that. Ive been raising rates steadily for the past year and I
still haven't hit that spot. Since this is my only source of income it's tough
because of the fear that I'll miss out on a lot of work. But I've heard this
before and it rings true as I do see that so far I'm getting what I ask for.

And I do have satisfied clients. I'm hyper aware of their feelings and do all
I can to not disappoint. I'd never take on a job knowing I couldn't deliver on
my promises.

~~~
kstenerud
The biggest lesson I've learned in life is that you never truly shed your fear
until you've fallen to the very bottom.

The bottom is scary because it's unknown. Once you know what it's like to fail
in such a colossal fashion that it ruins everything you've strived towards for
years, it's not so bad, and not so scary after all. And as a result, you gain
a much more balanced ability to assess risk, and become quite fearless in the
eyes of others who have not had such an opportunity. It's a huge advantage.

~~~
billpatrianakos
Best reply yet.

------
polyfractal
The technical term for it is "Imposter Syndrome". They typically give a
lecture about it to new PhD students since its very common in acadamia to feel
like a fraud when starting out. It is a very common feeling, so don't feel
like you are alone.

Charge more. You are probably underselling yourself. Even if higher cost
equals less work, you'll have less stress for the same amount of cash.

Read up on Rob Walling (<http://www.softwarebyrob.com/>). He hit the same wall
while freelancing. He started building products and web properties as a way to
get off the hamster wheel and work for himself instead of other people.

~~~
glimcat
"They typically give a lecture about it to new PhD students since its very
common in acadamia to feel like a fraud when starting out."

They really do, you really will, and it will likely pop up again later as
stress points emerge.

~~~
impendia
Indeed. I went to grad school, am a professor now, and I feel like a fraud
pretty frequently. But, as I have learned, so do 98% of other mathematicians.

And dammit, I love what I do, and they pay me for it...

------
mapster
I wouldn't worry about labels such as entrepreneur or hacker. It seems your
life could use more balance? So taking your skills and getting a job could be
the path to happiness and balance and independence. Who knows, a side project
later down the road could bear fruit. Wishing you success.

~~~
billpatrianakos
Agreed. I chose to get into business because I'm so far behind in school that
I can't really get a job that pays me what I get now without that degree. I'm
kind of between a rock and a hard place. I make less than a college grad but
more than I would without the degree. I'm a CIS major now, successfully
completing the program in a year or two, and I definitely a, keeping my
options open. I have to admit though, that despite times like these where it
sucks bad, there are other times it's really rewarding and dare I say
addictive.

~~~
devs1010
You shouldn't think that you can't get a job without a degree that pays better
than what you make now as I bet you can, unless you live in a really small
market where there is little demand for developers. I know this from first-
hand experience, you've just got to keep pushing yourself to learn more about
software design, etc and keep going to interviews and someone will give you a
shot. This will accelerate your learning as well, by working with other
developers.

------
guynamedloren
Care to share some of your work? I'm curious, and your company website does
not seem to be up at the moment...

~~~
billpatrianakos
I'm switching hosts, that's why it's down. Also, the current host has
deplorable uptime so I don't doubt it. TheHeroFoundation.org is a recent one,
yesdotell.com, and there's more that'll be up on the site if it ever goes back
on,one again. I've got about 10 sites done.

------
billpatrianakos
Wow, this has gotten far more of a response than I thought it would. I have to
thank you all for the kind words, insights, and advice. I know this site can
tear people apart sometimes so I was hesitant to say anything but I respect
this community a lot and was prepared for anything. I'm pleasantly surprised.
Low points suck and it's nice to know you're not e only one who's been there.
Thank you.

