
For Shanghai Jobs, Only ‘Normal Size’ Need Apply - GabrielF00
http://sinosphere.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/for-shanghai-jobs-only-normal-size-need-apply/?_php=true&_type=blogs&hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpBlogHeadline&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
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GabrielF00
I really appreciate the extent to which American laws make it difficult for
employers to eliminate candidates based on factors that are irrelevant to the
job.

In 2012, I considered applying for a fellowship in Israel. The application
form required you to say whether you had consulted a mental health
professional in the last two years and to list any medications you were
currently taking and for what purpose.

In the United States, it is completely illegal to put questions like this on a
job application form (and for very good reason). You are allowed to ask these
types of questions after you've made an offer and even then you have to
demonstrate that the person cannot do the job in order to rescind the offer.

I asked the organization why they collected this information, and they told me
it was for the safety of the participants and that they "couldn't in good
conscience" not ask these questions. I didn't apply for the fellowship.

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DanAndersen
A couple years ago, I spent a year as an English teacher in Guangxi Province,
China. Hiring on the basis of physical or racial characteristics was very
blatant in that area and industry. It's difficult for non-white laowai to get
ESL positions, because many training centers choose not to hire those who
don't "look like a native English speaker" \-- either because the school
administrators believe this, or they think it'll drive away parents/customers
who think their child isn't getting a "real education" from a "real English-
speaking foreigner."

It was a new and very uncomfortable feeling to be so blatantly valued (and
used in marketing) for being little more than a white-faced billboard by the
school/business I was working at.

~~~
withdavidli
Think about any other race trying for ESL jobs in Asia. One of my teachers was
very upfront about it and asked me if anyone has ever spoke with me about
being asian and trying to teach in Asia.

Never ended up doing going. It is marketing, and it's perceived to be much
better to know American English than British English.

Resume info from other countries are also very different as others have
mentioned. Mandatory pictures, age, gender, marital status, children,
passport, driver's license, etc are all expected. It's scary to think how
easily identities can be stolen.

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kjackson2012
The same thing happens in all of Asia. In Japan, you have to apply with a
picture on your resume, and hiring managers will ask married women if they
intend to get pregnant, because they won't hire them. I'm sure it's similar
across other countries. My friend, who is white, and his wife who is Japanese
moved to Japan and after 9 months came back to the US because the conditions
were so bad compared to the US. Not only do they work you to the bone, the pay
is incredibly low and you are subject to blatant sexism and racism.

~~~
contingencies
I heard the other day that in Japan the employers routinely pay a percentage
of a man's salary direct to his wife such that that portion money remains
outside of his control. Maybe someone with a better idea of Japanese society
can weigh in with some analysis.

Here in China, I don't think the problem's quite as bad as they make out in
the article... only in government and some big businesses (eg. probably
airline flight attendants).

~~~
ics
I've never heard of a company paying an employee's wife directly (except after
a death), but it is common for married salarymen in Japan to turn over their
finances to their spouse. In return they are given _kozukai_ or "pocket
money/allowance" as a percentage as a way of curtailing unnecessary
expenditures.

~~~
nsxwolf
My wife does this to me, except I don't get the kozukai.

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yitchelle
Not surprise to read this. The Chinese culture is a very racially
discriminatory culture. Not only are suitable candidates for jobs selected
based upon physical attributes and racial backgrounds, social interactions are
also racially based, I am talking simple things like having sharing a table at
a crowded eating place.

Even within the Chinese, they are separated into Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka
etc, each with their own cultural character.

Thankfully, the younger generations are starting to change this mindset as the
world gets smaller via the internet and fast air travel. However, with hiring
practices such as that mentioned in the post, it will may take a couple of
generations before we see a significant change.

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clamprecht
I remember seeing Chinese job postings on Indeed.com that included not only
physical measurements for a receptionist position, but also attractiveness
requirements. It totally surprised us (we were in the US), but I guess it's a
cultural thing? Then I realized that 60 years ago, US job postings probably
had the same kinds of requirements.

~~~
freditup
US jobs postings still often have those requirements, albeit implicitly. For
example: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/abercrombie-
discrim...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/abercrombie-
discrimination-france_n_3653357.html)

~~~
nemothekid
Not entirely sure, but I've heard Abercrombie gets around this be having the
job titles of all their floor workers be "models"

~~~
psychometry
Even if they didn't do that, I'm sure they could successfully argue that for
that position, attractiveness is a bona-fide occupational qualification.

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bootload
_"... Here is more detail on a widespread phenomenon in China dubbed “carrot
job ads,” for the notion that each job can be filled by only one, very
specific, person, just as each carrot fills just one hole in a garden: ..."_

Isn't this the way software/hi-tech companies hire in the west?

~~~
bagels
Yes, you have to know how to write software in order to get a job writing
software :(

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westiseast
I've been trying to think for a while of a comment that explains or even
defends this from a cultural perspective but there's nothing. while this
probably doesn't reflect public policy or the aspirations of the Chinese
people, it's just another of those signs that for all the trains/sports
stadiums/airports being built, Chinese society is still sometimes the kid of
idiocracy we would associate with the UK a hundred years ago. it's a shame.

------
glurgh
There were reports over a decade ago of people successfully challenging such
requirements through the legal system

[http://www.economist.com/node/1011419](http://www.economist.com/node/1011419)

is one, there were others but it doesn't seem to have brought about
significant change.

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readerrrr
Aren't some jobs legitimately asking for certain traits in their workers? Just
as actors and models are in fact sometimes hired by their looks, why is it
wrong to ask that when the specifics of the job depend on it.

Just to clarify; I'm not trying to defend unreasonable job conditions.

~~~
GeneralMayhem
It's for the civil service. Office jobs. Museum workers. The article lists
"women might be afraid of the dark, so we can't hire them for a job that would
have night shifts" as a reason.

That's wrong.

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redmattred
Ugh, don't even know where to begin with all the things wrong here

~~~
w1ntermute
How about with all the Westerners snidely judging Chinese culture through a
Western cultural lens?

~~~
iopq
Being 6'4" actually is a huge advantage for me. I've never failed an in-person
interview in my life.

I'm surprised it's also cut off at the top.

~~~
iopq
All I'm saying is this is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against
me!

------
pravda
I wish we had this in America, for certain jobs. For example, Police Officers.
Male police officers should be required to be at least six feet tall.

Don't need no short cops.

(Let the downvoting commence!)

~~~
dragonwriter
Why would _male_ police officers have distinct height requirements? To the
extent that one might have a reasonable argument that height is a _bona fide_
job qualification for a police officer, why would the minimum acceptable level
be different by sex?

