
Ask HN: Should I drop out or not? - liuliu
I am a 21-year-old undergrad student in a public university. A little old for freshman actually. After high school study, I spent one year in lab, and another year trying to start up sth. As I don't achieve any significant thing that can insure the rest of my life, then I said, go to United States and try some luck. But after the half year study, I didn't see any purpose of the college life.<p>I have learned basic math skills such as differential equations and linear algebra in high school. I self-taught algorithms and c/c++. I am an active contributor to opensource community. Recent two years, I mastered several scripting languages (js, php, python etc.) to accomplish a web project. Especially in computer vision area, I have many experiences. When I participate icpc contest, I saw what 4-year student done. That scared me. They don't have basic programming instinct.<p>Indeed, a diploma can make life much easier by getting a job in Microsoft or Google and my college's rank is not that bad at all (around 20+). But I don't want to spent so much money in next 3.5 year and gain nothing. Besides, getting a job in big company and establishing own career after 30+ seems not so interesting to me.
======
ryanwaggoner
Two things:

1\. As someone else already stated, it doesn't sound like you have any
concrete plans or alternatives, so dropping out might not be the best option.
When I was an undergrad, I was fascinated by the tales of so many extremely
wealthy people who had dropped out of college and gotten rich through tech
startups (Gates, Dell, Zuckerberg, etc, etc). I wondered if there was some
link between dropping out of school and success in technology. However, I was
confusing correlation with causation, as these people weren't rich because
they dropped out...they dropped out because they had started something that
was growing so fiercely that it took up all their time. If you don't have that
something that pretty much forces you to drop out, don't do it. If you feel
like you're torn and you're not sure what to do, don't quit school.

2\. I mean no offense at all here, but it sounds like your communication
skills in English could be improved. This may not seem like a huge deal, but
learning to express yourself well through the written and spoken word will
serve you well the rest of your life. Others might disagree with me on this,
and perhaps there are better ways to improve that area, but college _seems_
like it would be a good environment to do so, though I have no firsthand
experience in the matter.

Good luck no matter what you decide.

~~~
jmtame
Just as an interesting side note: is Steve Jobs the only exception to the
causality rule? He didn't find his coursework worth the amount of money he was
paying, right? But he did continue to stick around and attended classes that
were interesting to him.

~~~
vlad
Steve Jobs is not an exception. He met Woz in college. This means he
benefitted from college.

Jobs, Woz, Zuckerberg, Gates, Dell, and virtually everyone on this planet
benefits from college up until they don't. A big portion of students escape
before they graduate, though most escape at graduation. Almost all students
drop out for the same reason--financial. That's because other reasons--
geographical, academic quality, offerings, or costs--can be addressed by
changing schools or majors by those who are willing to find a better fit in
another program. And yes, working at McDonalds has priority over college to
drop outs only because they don't feel they can afford college. People don't
work two low-paying jobs while attending community college or state school
half-time, if at all, for fun. If you can afford to go, then you're not in the
same position.

Therefore, if your problems with school are that classes are too slow and
you're not getting enough real-world experience, do what Jobs, Woz,
Zuckerberg, Gates, and Dell did--use that extra time to experiment with ideas
while in college.

(Note that I did not say start your own business/startup, because you have to
start tinkering before expecting to come up with a great idea and product
right away, and anybody who says the first thing software billionaires did or
that you should do is to create a startup, is lying. First, you have to fool
around and try to create your own software while you're in college. Once an
idea seems to take off, and seems plausible, then you can consider taking some
time off from school to see how it goes.)

~~~
walterk
> Steve Jobs is not an exception. He met Woz in college. This means he
> benefitted from college.

Jobs met Woz during the summer after his sophomore year of high school, when
they were working at the same company. Jobs later went to Reed, in Oregon,
before coming back to California and eventually starting Apple with Woz.

What he benefited from by going to Reed was exposure to their top calligraphy
department, which inspired Jobs to support rich typography on the Mac.

~~~
vlad
I had actually googled that at 4am before posting, and left it intentionally
vague (it was not necessarily the first time he met Woz, or the only benefit
Jobs found in college). But you are correct and precise.

Interestingly enough, Paul Allen and Gates also met in high school.

This means that in their case, Bill and Paul thought going to college was a
good idea, up until it wasn't.

Woz ran up a huge computing bill in school. It seems Jobs wanted to continue
attending college, but on his own terms, taking classes he wanted to take
(there are now many colleges that allow one to create their own concentration,
and two year colleges are more popular, prevalent, and accepted.) They dropped
out for different reasons than Paul and Bill, but were making connections and
projects by that time. Similar to Paul and Bill, Jobs and Steve already knew
each other and had worked together.

------
jamiequint
If you're not already a US citizen first you must worry about how you will
legally stay in the US after you drop out (your visa will be terminated). It
is very hard to get a US Visa without a degree. One of our co-founders split
time with school and our startup just so he could get his degree and pursue a
visa. Make sure you know your full immigration status before you proceed.
Immigration law sucks, do your best not to get caught up in it.

~~~
artaak
I wondered if F-1 or any other non-resident status allows you to own a part of
a company or a profitable company. Could you please elaborate about that?

~~~
jamiequint
If you're really interested in this stuff you should contact a visa lawyer,
email me and I can give you the name of a good one who will probably discuss
your options with you for free. The following is just my experience, and not
legal advice:

You don't have to hold any sort of visa to own a part of a company in the US.
However, you cannot get paid legally (there are probably some exceptions with
liquidity events) in the US without a visa and a social security number.

Some tricks involve setting up a foreign subsidiary that wholly owns or is
wholly owned by the US company, then paying yourself as a consultant of the
foreign company. This can work with UK companies, I can't speak for other
countries though. Also, if you have such a foreign company that you can prove
you worked for for a year in managerial capacity you can possibly qualify for
an L-1 intra-company transferee visa.

The best route to a US visa is probably to stay in school. Don't worry about
grades too much, but try to do things that get you recognition within the
scientific community, maybe do some research and publish a paper or two.
Basically, this is padding your resume for application for an O-1 (Alien of
Extraordinary Ability) visa later.

One of the best options if you don't think you can qualify for that is to get
a J-1 training visa. It is a very easy visa to get after you graduate and is
good for 12-18 months depending on your prior work experience. You can then
use this time to do things that push you closer to O-1 status so you can apply
for that at the end of your J-1 or you can try and get lucky with the H1-B.

All of these things (except the L-1) require a US citizen co-founder who will
fill out most of these forms and apply on behalf of you. In our company I'm
that guy, so thats how I know all this stuff. Good luck!

------
charlesju
I'm 1.5 weeks away from graduation and I know exactly how you are feeling. So
perhaps I can provide some insight.

School has crammed a bunch of useless information down my throat that I will
never use again in my life. It has tested me in a format that in no way shape
or form reflects how well I can contribute to society (in that, if I had
Google, which I do in real life, I can ace every test that I have ever taken).
I've essentially picked up everything in school by reading a book since, like
you, I go to a top 25 public University where the professors are all on tenure
and don't give a rats ass about the students.

But in light of all that, I am still damn proud of my soon to be college
degree. At the end of the day you have the rest of your life to be a slave to
the "man", but you only really have these couple of years to live up your
youth and enjoy the finer stages in life (ie. college frat parties).

So my suggestion is to look outside just college as a means to an end, but
rather an end in and of itself.

~~~
mamama
I'm a high school senior student who has applied to several public
universities; mainly a subset of Berkeley, UIUC, UWash, Michigan, UT Austin,
GATech, and Purdue.

I'm wondering if you are at one of these these places (or a university of a
similar reputation.) Do you think attending a private university such as
Chicago or CMU is a better option?

~~~
charlesju
I go to UCLA. I personally think it's an awesome program (I think we're ranked
top 15 in CS). I would definitely recommend it given that UCLA is ridiculously
fun, the people there are pretty smart, and LA is a great city for the young
and wild.

As a side note, my parents saved up enough for me to go to a private school,
but I chose to forego that option to go to a public school. As such, my
parents gave me the difference to spend at my discretion and I'm currently
using it as seed money for my startup (the disparity is about $100,000 over 4
years, not withstanding scholarships or grants).

~~~
tsally
I think it's worthwhile to point out that with financial aid and other
scholarships, it's often cheaper to go to private schools. All competitive
private schools guarantee to meet 100% of demonstrated need. That being said,
if no need is demonstrated via the FASFA form, obviously it's going to be
cheaper to go to a public school.

------
qhoxie
It sounds like you have a really solid background outside of academia. That
said, I would not advise dropping out at this point. The reason being that you
did not mention any concrete plans or anything pulling you directly away from
school.

Feeling that it does not have a purpose for you is valid and understandable,
but there is probably a lot to going through college that you haven't taken
into consideration (internships, finding partners, etc) that could be very
beneficial.

My final thought would be that if you at some point in the near future have
something immediate that you want/ _need_ to do, then it might be a viable
option. At this point, though, I would stick it out.

------
mechanical_fish
I'll bet you're studying CS. That's your mistake.

Change majors. Physics. Biology. Statistics. Graphic Arts. Take MechE and weld
together some solar-powered cars. Take EE and learn to build your own
microcircuits (it's fun!). If your major isn't hard or interesting enough find
something that is.

There are schools where CS is a challenging major filled with bright students
and interesting problems. Or so I am told by folks from MIT, and I have to
trust them, because I've never seen it myself. I went to a decent engineering
school, but even there CS was a major for the cube drones of the future, with
the smart CS students in the minority, huddling together for mutual support
and doing most of their real work and learning _outside_ of class. I didn't
fight that. I just took one look and left. There were physics problems to be
solved.

You can always work in CS without a CS major. Believe me. I did a physics B.S.
and a Ph.D. in EE, took exactly two official courses in software in my life,
and I can't seem to stay _out_ of the field even when I've tried. Keep CS as a
minor or just drop it entirely and rely on self-teaching, which you seem to
enjoy anyway.

Learn something hard or something important. _Higher_ math. Statistics.
Linguistics. Take some history and practice your writing. Take an accounting
course. Take an econ course. If nothing else, work on your startup in your
spare time, but have some fun while you can! Your soul-killing cubicle-drone
job will wait for you, I promise!

Don't leave now, for god's sake. There's a recession on, and thousands of
people are probably trying to figure out how to get _back into school_ to ride
out the storm. You are where many people want to be! If you're running out of
money transfer to a cheaper school and keep the debt as low as possible, but
don't leave unless you've got no other choice.

~~~
tsally
Out of all the comments on HN, this is the one I disagree with the most
(respectfully of course). The essence of your comment is that it doesn't
matter what you study, as long as you know how to think. The implication is
that CS is a major inherently filled with drones, who are not learning how to
think. I can't speak for other schools, but at UIUC that's simply not true. I
imagine the same goes for other top 5 programs. What you most certainly ran
into was a program that doesn't treat Computer Science like a Science. From
the tone of your post, it seems like you aren't either. When you say "work in
CS", it seems like you mean developing software. I apologize if I am
misinterpreting your words. =)

~~~
mechanical_fish
Well, bravo for you for being enthusiastic about your field! If the original
poster had more people like you around he might not be so depressed. Feel free
to argue that the original poster should transfer to UIUC, which would
doubtless be a great idea.

Yeah, I misspoke when I used "work in CS" as a synonym for "developing
software". (Though I suppose I could argue that all of us who write software
are "doing CS"... some are just doing it with more ignorance than others. Of
course, by that logic, my cat "does physics" all the time...)

I _am_ aware that real CS exists. I don't actually know much of it, and while
I enjoy picking up bits and pieces as I go along and occasionally sleep with a
copy of Knuth Vol 1 under my pillow it would be nice to have had an actual
grounding in the subject. Alas, I didn't encounter anyone who was really able
to explain what the hell the field was all about until I was more than halfway
through grad school in a different subject. I sampled the CS department as a
freshman in college, both the intro course and an assembly course, and all I
saw was a roomful of people struggling to write the Pascal programs that I had
taught myself to write in middle school. (If only the web had been invented
_slightly_ earlier... or my university's intro course had involved SICP
instead of Pascal. Ah, what might have been. Incidentally, I forgot to ask the
original poster: Have you read SICP yet? It's free on the web now!)

But the reason I'm being harsh on true-blue Computer Science in this thread is
that I'm in coaching mode. I'm trying to give advice to a guy who either can't
find the real CS at his school or can't understand why he should care. Perhaps
he should just look harder, but I trust you and every other CS major in this
thread to convince him to do that. That's your job. I feel that it's my job to
point out that there really _are_ other things than CS in college, and perhaps
he should try some of them before he just quits.

~~~
tsally
That sounds fair. :-)

------
aak
Patience, young jedi! You've got the rest of your life to work and experiment
with startups, but it's harder to go back to school later in life. It's great
that you're already well ahead academically, but try and enjoy college in
other ways, be it through challenging yourself with non-hacker-related courses
or meeting interesting non-hackers. Good luck sir!

~~~
puzzle-out
I couldn't agree more - you only realise how special the social/networking
side of the uni environment is after you have left. Join clubs and meet like-
minded and interesting people.

~~~
dkd
indeed. I have regretted a lot that i have not mingled with other
activities/folks during my 4 yr stay. :)

------
wyattpeak
Without any particular plans for what you want to do, I think the other
commenters' concerns are valid. However I think the best solution would be
come up with some plans, not to continue university.

You've expressed your disinterest in spending your life in a company's employ,
so I question the utility of getting a degree. Four years of your time is not
a small price to pay for a qualification you may not need, to say nothing of
the financial cost, so I don't buy these 'nothing else better to do'
arguments.

Regardless, it's a significant decision, so I would advise against a hasty
choice. Consider the other benefits of a degree - for example, if you ever
need finance for a project, an investor would likely be comforted by some
proof of your qualification.

I think it sounds like you'd be best off dropping out, but do think hard about
your plans before you make a decision. If you do need to get a job in the
future, IT is one of the most receptive industries to people without formal
qualification, provided they can demonstrate their skill. Good luck with it.

------
simplegeek
I dropped out of my CS school to pursue a career of my own choice i.e.
business of software. I've been quite successful so far. However, you've no
idea how how much I want to go back to school but irony is that it's no more
an easy choice. It's really hard to go back to school later in your life. I
dropped out of school because I was kind of bored too. I will reckon that you
should stay at school. Attend as many math classes you can. Also, take the
hardest courses you can find in your school. Remember, these four years is the
most important time in your life and this is when you can really enjoy life.
TRUST me. Keep attending the school. In the interim try different things. IF
something takes off and has a potential to grow only then consider this
choice. Now that I'm married and badly want to go to school but you've no idea
how hard it is. I know eventually I will.

------
tempest67
If you drop out now, you're basically handicapping yourself for the rest of
your life -- unless you get lucky. You say you "mastered several scripting
languages" in the last two years -- any CS department worth its salt will
demand significantly more from you than that. What about theory? You say you
saw a 4-year student who lacked "basic programming instinct" -- I certainly
saw a lot of that as a CS TA, too, but I also saw brilliant students who made
the most of their education.

If you're so ahead of the game, why not try to get involved in research --
talk to professors, take more advanced courses, join ACM? If you push, you can
use college to advance your skills and connections far beyond what you could
(generally) do on the "outside".

------
vlad
1) College students don't ask how old you are, but what year. Take classes in
the summer and winter to change that faster.

2) Since you do care about learning, but want to pick your own classes and
also learn more efficiently, talk to your advisors. They will let you take
more fun, advanced classes in place of ones you are taking right now.

3) Realize that in the US, the same freedom students have to do virtually
nothing and still stay in the program until graduation is the same freedom
that allows a student to concentrate and complete their studies much sooner.
Rigorous schools around the world make sure students do the same amount of
work, but such programs can sometimes limit students who want to go even
faster or pick their own loads each semester depending on what they want to do
outside of school. Here, schools give you a wide variety of ways to take
classes (on campus, online, winter, summer, transfer credit from other
schools), majors, credit loads, class offerings, and just enough structure to
keep students on a path. However, the freedom to chart one's own path and
speed is given to the student--so take advantage of it.

My other post for you: <http://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=379988>

------
apu
If possible, I'd advise you to take more challenging and/or more interesting
courses. I know there are probably several required courses that you cannot
avoid (of which many are probably going to be worthless/boring), but for the
ones where you can choose, pick ones that interest you. Often, more off-beat
courses can be very rewarding -- for example courses in foreign cultures,
various arts-related courses, etc.

Also, I'd use college as a means of finding talented people you might want to
work with in the future. It's an ideal place to meet such people, and perhaps
even start cooking something up together.

Finally, college is perhaps one of the last times when you'll have large
chunks of time to do whatever you want (especially if you feel your classes
are easy). Take advantage of this to explore your interests.

------
humanlever
I was in the same boat as you not too long ago and while I haven't found my
undergrad. experience to be a particularly enlightening one, it has had value.

Also, a bachelor's of some sort is almost a universal prereq. for a decent
job. While you may be able to convince a hiring manager your skills are solid
and that you're worth hiring, they're going to be talking to those who meet
their requirements first so you may never get that chance.

Rather than drop out, why not take a heavier course load and finish sooner?

------
jmtame
Which school do you go to?

I find my own school to be pointless in terms of teaching me something I
couldn't easily figure out on my own. I wish it were more of a "pick your own
topic of study" type of thing. Only newer schools are beginning to do this.
Olin College has a terrific engineering curriculum that is project-oriented,
prevents faculty from being on >5 year tenure, and allows the entire
curriculum to be reviewed and voted on each year.

My challenge at school has not been learning material, it has been finding
people who are as driven and ambitious as I am. I see that as the only real
value a university has: it's a petri dish of intelligence, but there's only a
few people who are going to be just as driven as you are.

I am done with school in about 1.5 years and I still regret how this system is
designed. I would say find a startup and go work for them. Get paid to learn,
instead of the opposite in college, where the quality of material is usually
very low. Get to know the very smart and driven employees and co-founders.
When you have a nest egg built up, go and try to startup with someone.

~~~
qhoxie
You have to consider that some schools do have _great_ professors and
curriculum. Along with that, some companies lack intelligent people and good
learning environments.

------
mrtron
Dropping out to save money seems like such a waste to me.

Money is such an imaginary good. The difference between having 10k debt and
100k debt is marginal. Both situations you have to make monthly payments and
need a source of income.

Ignore the financial part of the equation, and consider you only have X more
years left to live. How would you spend your time? I would definitely stay in
school, it was a great life experience. After you graduate you can worry about
work and startups. Would you rather work 35 years instead of 33? Make the most
of your time at school.

------
mooneater
I did a computer engineering undergrad, I dropped out half way through and
only returned years later when I learned I was about to become a father. At
that point I had a small business and mortgage, it was _much_ harder to study
with all that going on, but I was also much more motivated.

Ultimately the most helpful things I learned came from a) the co-op/internship
jobs that I got through uni, and b) technical things I learned during the last
2 semesters (ai, distributed, security), which I would not have known if I
left early.

------
mindaugas
If you don't now the answer yet, then you should stay where you are until you
know what you want to do next.

------
siong1987
liuliu, we are at the same age and almost in the same situation.

I am 21 years old and now just started my college for almost half a year. And,
I am in a public university too.

Anyway, you should not drop out if you are a foreign student. It will be very
hard for you to get a VISA to work here without any proper education(diploma
or degree).

And, assume that you haven't started anything, you should not drop out too.
Many successful entrepreneurs dropped out because they have something
urgent(their startups) to do rather than their educations. \- Mark Zuckerberg
dropped out because Facebook was gaining traction.

Remember, college is a good place for you to meet various people. You may find
someone as driven as you. And, you can always start something together with
him/her.

------
lionhearted
College does two things primarily:

1\. Learning.

2\. Credentialing.

There's also the social aspect, but it's way overrated. There's way more
fun/socializing to be had in the real world. So you've got:

1\. Learning: You're obviously able to self-teach. Not sure how familiar you
are with college courses - it's much slower learning than self-teaching. The
place where college is good is for things that'd be way too tedious to stick
with in self-teaching. I still think Accounting 201 is the best college course
I ever took - everything else I could have self-taught or learned from someone
I respected. But I sure as hell would've never taught myself double-entry
accounting without a course.

2\. Credentialing: College is a credential. A degree is an easy big credential
to get, and it helps a lot. But if you've done lots of great stuff, and no
degree, you won't have much trouble. The problem is the "lots of great stuff"
- specifically, tangible great stuff that you can show and point to. I
wouldn't hesitate to hire a hacker who had built a couple cool things,
experimented in business, and had no degree. If a kid had showed me how he
started a business that made $7,000 in revenue before folding, and that he'd
coded a Firefox add-on, I'd be all over it. If a technical writer listed on a
resume that he'd compiled research and created 300 Wikipedia pages just
because he loved it, and gave me links to his favorite 3 or 5, lack of degree
wouldn't stop me from checking him out thoroughly.

Managers/bosses look for credentials and track record. College is such a good
credential because college sucks, so bosses know you can stick through
something that sucks when it starts sucking if you finished college.

If you want to get in "the army" (big companies), you might need a college
degree. It shows you can take orders and do stupid stuff. If you decide to
just go crazy and start doing mercenary work, you'll be able to sign on with
some revolutionary, commando assassin companies, but the army will frown about
taking you on. That's okay if you find the army boring.

The key is, figure out how you're going to learn if you don't go to college.
(You seem like you can self-teach). Then figure out how you'll get
CREDENTIALS. A track record. Do some tangible stuff, and FINISH IT. Even if it
sucks. Something you can write down if you apply for a job or try to get
financed or borrow money or get investors. Any credentials are good
credentials.

Dropping out might be one of the best things you could do for your life - just
make sure you do some cool stuff instead of playing XBox and drinking Mountain
Dew.

~~~
gaius
Don't forget the wider social aspect. Getting into college is the important
part that will follow you for the rest of your life. Dropping out and doing
something is fine, but getting in in the first place will mean less time
wasted later convincing people to take you seriously.

------
prakash
[http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/12/graduating-
college-...](http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/12/graduating-college-
in-3-semesters/) \-- read this

~~~
jessica05
You spend as much time on the StevePavlina.com forums as other people in your
family spent watching TV.

Regards, Jessica www.makemoneykingdom.com

------
sachinag
It's a lot easier to learn social engineering, which is an important life
skill, in college than any where else.

------
wehriam
If you're not interested in your coursework, perhaps you're pursuing the wrong
degree. If you already know how to program you may want to consider economics
or business.

~~~
vlad
I disagree. Stay with Computer Science and add a double major in Math. Do your
best and apply to transfer to other schools that have stronger CS programs.

------
masterhacker
Stay in school and get a job. I think you can handle working and studying.
That way you can pay part of the tuition now, plus school can be useful.

------
Ezra
You're mistaking the first term of university with the University™ that
everyone else is talking about retrospectively.

What they mean by University™ is usually "the last 2 years of university".

Year one, if your experience is like mine was, is where you get the breadth
part of your education in. My first year was 20% philosophy, 20% English, 20%
math, 20% CS, and 20% political studies.

And it was all mostly tripe. The math was basic calculus; the English was
Donne, _Gawain_ , Shakespeare, and some other BS; the philosophy was Socrates
and Aristotle; the CS was basic "this is a for loop", and the politics was
Locke, JS Mill, Engels, etc. ...

All extremely basic. The first year is unlearning what your retard HS teachers
told you, giving you some basis in the "you're supposed to know this
text"-texts in each field, and getting everybody up to a base level to
continue from.

Of course you're going to be bored... the three golden rules to surviving are
1) finding out what profs are good, and then taking their classes, 2) not
scheduling a lecture before noon (at my school they put nearly all the first
year math classes at 8:30 ... brutal) and, most importantly, 3) playing Super
Smash TV with the other smart kids.

You don't learn anything because you (you being the average student) are a
fucking retard. This becomes especially clear years later when you (you being
the smart kid) serve as a TA for some first year class.

This problem is especially apparent in CS, because there is, depending on
where you live, and what school you went to, either a) absolutely no
curriculum at all, or b) some retard teaching kids goto in BASIC on crappy
80's computers, or worse. You can learn decent CS in HS, but that's far from
typical.

And when you put the kids with no exposure whatsoever to programming in the
same class as people with a decade of experience ... of course the smart kids
are going to be bored; you're supposed to be.

So, in first year you get the hammer.

The second year is more interesting because you actually might learn
something. Or, at any rate, will be required to work. This year is usually
when they separate the people who think they want to be an X, from the people
who actually do.

This year you take 30% math, 50% cs, some physics or chemistry, and (if you're
like me) more philosophy. In your CS, if it's like where I went (when I went),
you a bunch of new stuff... I went from a shaky understanding one and a half
programming languages, to being pretty good in a few ... if you make it
through.

Also, by this time you've learned all about requirements engineering if your
professors are as "evil" as mine were.
<http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1121475>

Still, you're not learning anything that interesting, doing (relatively) toy
apps in assembly, prolog, Eiffel; but you learn more advanced procedural and
OO stuff at this point, and can begin to postulate on the pros and cons of
multiple inheritance, and tail v. head recursion, for instance.

Again, nothing ground-shaking, but you learn how to swing that hammer you got
earlier in a useful manner.

Third and fourth year are where you begin to specialize, and most of the
classes are awesome. Also, by this time, you're old enough to drink (in
Canada). You're taking 60% CS, 10% math, and pursuing your interest in X with
the other 30%.

All of your classes are taught by pretty much the most intelligent and
passionate people around, and everybody is there because they want to be, and
interested in learning, and you're learning about stuff that's actually cool.

And you spend all of your "free time" playing with robots (or kernels, if
that's what you like, or compilers, or whatever), and building stuff with your
friends.

University's awesome. (I finished in October.)

About the fourth year student thing ... some people are fucking dumb but
manage to scrape by with "group projects" that their smart friends complete,
and middling test scores... whatever. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to
... anything, really.

And I know tonnes of smart people who suck at programming contests ... they're
not real. It's kind of like having a waitress who's a world champion at
stacking cups ... I can't really see it hurting, but I'd rather have someone
who gets the orders right, and brings the food out while it's still warm (and
flirts with the programmers!) than who can stack cups quickly.

The biggest thing to realize is that even if you're at a shit university,
there is someone there who's incredibly intelligent and passionate about what
they do ... and they have a propensity to like others who are intelligent and
passionate about what they do.

They want to help you learn more than almost anything; the caveat being that
you have to want to learn.

Ask to help them out ... they might even give you money for it.

Or, if that's not your alley, spend all day trying to break something, or
create a monster (with your friends, of course).

------
hs
don't confuse college 'experience' with freedom, they're not the same

nothing gives better track record than startup (even failed ones) ... don't
confuse it with the college-track-record ... they are not the same

college rank is a gamed metric (engineering rank #1=100 pt, rank #2=90ish pt,
rank 3-rest=60ish) ... don't bother with it

college debt is an early enslavement scheme (later u'll get family and
mortgages) ... beware

My suggestion is you to drop out and read this book:

How to Get Rich by Felix Dennis:

Young, Penniless, and Inexperienced?

"Excellent. You stand by far the best chance of becoming as rich as you
please. You have an advantage that neither education nor upbringing, nor even
money, can buy—you have almost nothing. And therefore you have nothing to
lose.

"Nearly all great fortunes acquired by entrepreneurs arose because they had
nothing to lose. Nobody had bothered to tell them that such and such a thing
could not be done or would be likely to fail. Or if they had been told, then
they weren't listening; they were too busy proving those around them wrong."

------
bborud
Since you are just 21 I think you should try to motivate yourself to finish a
degree. Because 5-10 years down the road it is going to be a lot harder to go
back to school. If you think motivating yourself is hard now, it is nothing
against what it is going to be like in 10 years.

I can understand that you find going to a university boring and uninspiring. I
did. I fund it painfully boring and eventually I quit because I didn't see the
point in torturing myself with horribly bad lecturers. But I had a few
advantages. First off, I already had about 10 years of solid work experience
when I quit. Second, I stayed at the university and worked there for about 5
years after I quit. Meaning I had the benefit of getting to know a lot of
people. Third, just because I stopped following the university program didn't
mean I stopped studying. It just meant that I could focus on what I found
interesting. Now this is risky, because university programs are diverse for a
reason. Luckily the stuff I was interested in turned out to become immensely
important later and I had a head-start when my classmates graduated a few
years later. But, of course, I didn't have a degree.

Meeting people is critical. I cannot stress this enough. During your time at
the university you are going to meet a lot of people. If you hang out with the
right sort of people, it will greatly affect your professional life later. For
the past 15 years I have ended up working with a _lot_ of people I got to know
during the university years. I did a startup with some of them and I have
worked on a few world class projects with them. Many of them were great --
extremely few of them would have been great if they had been on their own.

Your network of talented people whom you know personally is more important
than what they teach you at school.

This is something not a lot of people think about when choosing universities,
but it would be a good idea to pick a university in an area you would like to
stay later. Preferably somewhere people care to go when doing startups.

Also, at 21 you might think that you are hot shit because you have some
software development knowledge. The short version is: most likely you are not.
In all likelihood you are an above average newbie. Swallow your pride and let
it fuel ambition instead.

There is no replacement for having a broad and diverse professional background
and in the years to come, you are going to look back many times and think of
your self "what a naive idiot I was". That is normal. It shows that you are
developing and maturing.

What people look for when hiring senior developers is track record. What have
you delivered before? What role did you play? What are the strengths that make
you stand out. Are you able to plan 12 months ahead?

There are hundreds of thousands of people who would do well in programming
contests, but who are only fit for entry level software engineer jobs because
of lack of maturity and experience.

My advice is:

    
    
      - finish a degree.  if you are smart enough: try to keep
        your scores well in the top 5%
    
      - work on a challenging open source project while going
        to school -- become a visible/key contributor.
    
      - work as an intern during the summers.  aim for top tier
        companies that have challenging work and name
        recognition.  do well.  don't coast.
    
      - when you graduate, prioritize getting a job where you
        can learn a lot over an easy, dead-end job where you
        can earn more.  your first few years in the business 
        should be about learning and gaining experience.
    
      - if you are doing a start-up, understand the risks, be
        prepared to work your ass off and talk to other people
        who have done startups.  most important of all: make
        sure you know the right people to involve.  also, dare
        to fail.
    
      - be retrospective/introspective.  take notes and read
        them years later.  you will discover how much you
        mature over time and it will make you more grounded
        and more humble.  it will also highlight that you need
        to learn *constantly*.

------
mahipal
Another great opportunity that's unique to the college experience is the
chance to do research and work closely with a professor. You mentioned you
have a lot of experience in computer vision. If that's something that
interests you further, I'm sure you could pretty easily land a job in a
research lab working on cutting-edge computer vision problems. Just talk to a
professor who is doing work that interests you, and bring your resume and code
samples. With your background, you're easily one of the most qualified
undergrads on campus -- and you'd be hard pressed to find a day job that lets
you work on something that interesting.

And some universities will provide startup support if a research lab produces
a marketable idea. Who knows -- in 4 years, you could have a stack of
scientific publications under your belt, or you could be in business with a
professor.

The social environment of a university is unique too. Nowhere else will you
find such a large group of people who don't yet have the stress of working a
day job and are willing to discuss whatever academic issues interest you. The
opportunity to make connections and meet like-minded people is biggest here.
I've met the most brilliant people I know at my college, and I'll be going
back over the coming months to hire some of them for my startup. It would be
significantly harder to find programmers and thinkers like that in the free
market.

I think people like Gates and Dell are extreme outliers that greatly improve
the drop-out image. Unless you have a lucrative idea that's already taken off
and it's clear your time is much more profitably spent outside of college,
it's silly to think you can easily follow in their footsteps. It would be
different if you had a plan, and you may well reconsider if you launch a
successful idea while you're still in school.

For everyone else though -- whether you're trying to get a corporate job or
pitching to VCs -- having the endorsement of a top school greatly helps your
image. Even with your years of experience and great background, it's a sad but
true fact that many people would automatically give you less consideration
than college graduates.

It's pretty clear you're not going to college for the education. Think of the
classes you have to take as the 10-20 hr/week day job that you trudge through
for the sake of the rest of the experience. If attendance isn't mandatory,
you're probably better off skipping all the boring classes that cover the
things you know. In the meantime... make connections. Talk to fellow students,
your professors, everyone. Find like-minded people and brainstorm with them.
Take the most advanced classes you possibly can -- surely there's something
that will challenge you. There's a lot more to the college experience than
just the classroom, though.

Don't think that the only benefit of the college route is taking classes,
getting a degree, and going to a corporate job. I fully intend to never, ever
work a corporate job after I graduate. Exploit the possibilities and
opportunities to further yourself, and do the things that truly interest you.

------
ksvs
Do you feel like you're learning at lot in college?

~~~
qhoxie
I think the central point of his post was that he is does not.

