
Why I Chose New York - michael_miller
http://michael-g-miller.tumblr.com/post/20168723440/why-i-chose-new-york
======
simonsarris
I have a feeling my own _"Why I Chose New Hampshire"_ would not have the same
traction on HN, though it would bear some similarity to this post. Maybe I
should write it anyway.

I live in an 1840's house that I love. I walk seven minutes to main street
(and work) every day. I live a mere hour from the mountains, the ocean,
boston, minutes from country. I don't have any wants, I just like programming
and reading and making things. I live a simple life, I like to think.

Yet I get an email from a recruiter once a week (or a little less often, some
more personal invitation) who are thrilled to talk to me until the point that
they find that I have no intention of leaving New Hampshire.

Willingness to uproot one's entire life and move (to Silicon Valley), it
seems, is a foregone conclusion to them and I never cease to astonish my
correspondents by not wanting to go there.

I don't begrudge them. But I don't understand why in the grand game of chess I
would exchange 23 years of life for a single job.

(At last one correspondent signed, _"let me know if you ever decide to head
west, young man :-)"_ )

~~~
tstegart
I got the same astonishment from my friends when I told them I was leaving
NYC. "Why would you leave New York?" "Is there anything in Wisconsin?" One
even told me if I wasn't happy in NYC, I should seek therapy, because there
was clearly something wrong with me.

~~~
iron_ball
"When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London
all that life can afford." --Samuel Johnson

~~~
zem
and douglas adams's beautiful take-off on the quote:

Ursa Minor Beta is, some say, one of the most appalling places in the known
Universe.

Although it is excruciatingly rich, horrifyingly sunny and more full of
wonderfully exciting people than a pomegranate is of pips, it can hardly be
insignificant that when a recent edition of Playbeing magazine headlined an
article with the words "When you are tired of Ursa Minor Beta you are tired of
life", the suicide rate quadrupled overnight.

(from "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe")

------
tstegart
This is great, I left NYC for many of the same reasons the OP cites as wanting
to move there. Really, I should write a post on "Why I'm choosing the Midwest"

NYC has so many women. Beautiful women. But if you're looking to have kids,
settle down and move away to where your kid has his own lawn to play on, your
odds drop close to zero. So many people date in NYC, so few commit for the
rest of their lives. I was so naive when I moved there at 26, I thought I
would be married within a year. All my friends had gotten married while still
in college. NYC just ain't the place.

Lack of a commute? Yes, but add in the time to get everywhere else. That party
in Brooklyn? An hour. Finding somewhere, anywhere, where buildings don't dot
the horizon and you feel at peace? Try a few hours. Enjoy the subway
construction my friend.

I will say that NYC kills when it comes to food. Its the best, unless you're
trying to find a nice cheap bratwurst, then NYC sucks it up big time. But the
Midwest makes up for it. I have a canoe, a giant deck bigger than my NYC apt
with a grill on it and streets that get plowed. Midwest, I think you win.

~~~
untog
I think this gets to the point of why these debates are useless when talking
on a personal level- everyone is different.

I'm 28, and I _still_ don't want to get married. I have no problem with
buildings dotting the horizon (when I want to leave the city, I fly away
somewhere far, far away. Or go to Prospect Park). So, I probably wouldn't care
too much for the Midwest. Everyone is different.

~~~
tstegart
You're right. Funnily enough, Prospect Park was where I realized I didn't like
it there. I was enjoying a good run in the park with my roommate and telling
her how great it was. Then I realized the only reason I was happy was that the
park was completely empty: it was 10 o'clock at night and a downpour had just
happened.

------
untog
I hope this doesn't spark off another round of NYC vs. SV arguments[1]- there
is no empirically "right" answer. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and the
choice is all about what you want as a person, and what you want for your
startup.

Don't be fooled into thinking that SV will be the saviour of your dreams (the
guy living out of his car comes to mind), but also don't think that NYC is an
instant shortcut to making it big. I'm in New York and I wouldn't have it any
other way. But I'm just one person.

[1] I think these arguments are always worse because of the time difference.
As I write this, it's 10am here in NYC and the thread is 100% New Yorkers. In
three hours time Californians will start logging in and be horrified at the
overwhelmingly one-sided view, and start responding.

~~~
kurtvarner
I'm the guy living from his car. I never implied that Silicon Valley will make
me a success (or be my savior). I simply said that there are a lot of
advantages to being there. I don't think one can argue against that.

------
driverdan
It's only Bay vs NYC? Why not stay in Austin? Every startup here is hiring.
Why not Boston, Boulder, Seattle, or Portland? Not mentioning other cities
seems shortsighted. Online startups can exist anywhere. If you're not
interested in groupthink considering other cities seems very reasonable.

I also don't buy your SF commute argument. There are tons of startups in
downtown SF. You don't have to live in the bay area and work in the valley. If
I were to move out there I'd live and work in SF, I wouldn't even consider SV.

~~~
lightcatcher
What startups are in Austin? I did a quick google search and found this list:
<http://www.austinemerging100.com/list.php> as well as this blog:
<http://austinstartup.com/>

Previously, I thought Gowalla was the only somewhat known startup in Austin,
but they sold to Facebook. Are there any other somewhat known startups in
Austin?

~~~
mcguire
_"What startups are in Austin?"_

The one you started. Nothing else matters.

~~~
ericabiz
I'm going to second the reply to your comment. I thought what you think too,
but it turns out the energy of a city matters. I moved from the Bay Area to
San Diego. I LOVE San Diego. Still have many friends there. Unfortunately the
tech community there is really small. So I moved my entire company to Austin.
We are much happier here. Plus, our revenues have doubled in the three months
we've been here--just from the connections we've made.

Austin feels like a "mini-Bay Area" to me. I didn't want to start my next
company in the bubble, especially since we're working with a lot of
"oldschool" businesses. Austin is booming, but things are still relatively
inexpensive here, and there are plenty of customers. Plus, we found an amazing
Python developer here--I'm not sure that would have been as possible in the
Bay Area.

I'm still willing to travel to the Bay Area; I just don't want to live there
again.

~~~
mcguire
You're right, in one sense. Part of it is the same effect that results in four
gas stations on one intersection, part of it is the presence of resources and
connections, and part is that success breeds success.

On the other hand, my attempt at a point was that once you've started your
business, you _have to_ focus on it. Suddenly all that other innovation around
you stops being opportunities and starts being distractions. If anyone says to
you, "What you're doing is stupid, you should be doing what those guys over
there are doing," you probably shouldn't listen to them. The last thing you
need to be doing is chasing instead of being chased.

"The bubble" is a really good way to describe it.

------
jrockway
Don't forget about how expensive housing is in NYC. If you want to live in
Manhattan and have ever lived anywhere else, to get an apartment that vaguely
resembles what you consider an apartment, you're going to be paying $3000 a
month. Recently, it seems, Brooklyn has realized that it is not very far away
from Manhattan and the rents have gone up to match. In Chicago, I lived in a
brand new building, downtown, and had an 820 square foot apartment for $1400 a
month. In Brooklyn, I have about 500 square feet, no AC, no microwave, in a
building built in 1883 for $2400 a month. And, I had to pay a broker two
months rent for the privilege of renting their apartment. (Yes, Brooklyn
Heights is a particularly expensive neighborhood and the commute time to
Chelsea is less than from many places in Manhattan. But it's not a $1000
value-add from what I had in Chicago.)

Ultimately, I can afford this because Google pays me a lot of money and buys
me three meals a day. But if you are bootstrapping a startup, you probably
don't have this much money to burn, and there's really no compelling reason to
live in NYC unless you spend all your time doing social things. If you're
programming, buy yourself a more comfortable apartment in Kansas City, or
something. $2400 a month buys you the entire city :)

~~~
jvm
Brooklyn Heights is literally the most expensive neighborhood in Brooklyn,
which probably means it's the most expensive neighborhood in NYC outside
Manhattan. If you cared about money you should not have moved there.

~~~
jrockway
Yes, it's pretty expensive, though DUMBO is more expensive. But you can get a
lot farther out in Brooklyn without saving much money. Williamsburg, Park
Slope, Ft. Greene, Carroll Gardens, Downtown Brooklyn all seem about as
expensive as Brooklyn Heights, while being farther away from Manhattan and
without as much subway coverage. My thought is: if you want to spend less than
$2000 for a one-bedroom and live in a nice neighborhood with subway service
less than a half-mile away, it doesn't matter where you live. It's not going
to happen.

------
fjabre
Why don't more hackers consider Los Angeles? Cheaper and easier to find
housing than the bay or NYC hands down, better weather, and plenty of single
women who jump at the chance to date guys that aren't actors and/or yoga
instructors!

Given, the tech scene in LA isn't great but it's not that far from SF and
there are definitely some hackers around UCLA and the Westside.

I love New Yorkers but New York City is a zoo. You're constantly fighting the
crowds, the street noise, and there is an extremely high cost of living. Some
people thrive in this environment. I however find that my blood pressure rises
to unacceptable levels.

In Los Angeles I know plenty of people with a yard and driveway living in nice
walkable neighborhoods near the beach or in and around hollywood paying less
than $1500-$1700/month.

~~~
mahyarm
The Traffic, the Driving, the Sprawl. LA has a reputation of being a 24hr
traffic jam.

~~~
fjabre
Traffic isn't as bad as everyone thinks. The sprawl is desirable if you want
to live in a big city but still be able to afford a place with a yard and
driveway.

~~~
waterlesscloud
11 years in LA here. The traffic is awful around rush hours, worst I've seen
anywhere outside of DC. But off-peak can be fine. And, honestly, you just get
used to it. You take it into account, everyone else takes it into account,
that's how it is.

The sprawl isn't as much of a factor as some might imagine. You tend to stay
within 10-15 miles of home anyway, so it doesn't matter that there's another
50-60 miles of sprawl beyond that. Besides, it's not like SV is sprawl-free.

LA is much bigger than SF, and that's mostly a benefit. More options for most
everything.

As far as dating, just avoid anyone in any way connected to entertainment and
it's fine. I'm sort of kidding. Sort of not.

It's cheaper than SV, for sure. Though the upper end can compete with the
upper end of SF as well. It's a city where you can spend as much as you'd
like, there's not really a ceiling.

Los Angeles gets a bad rap culturally, but in reality it's second only to New
York in just about any cultural way you'd care to name. There's a LOT of
creative people here in just about every creative arena.

One thing I really like about LA is that there's probably more people trying
to live their wildest dreams than anywhere else on earth. I think that's
admirable.

Biggest downside? Weather. I hate the lack of rain. Something I hear a lot
from people who are from elsewhere. Summers are quite tedious.

------
joshklein
Lots of good pros/cons of New York mentioned in these comments, so just one
thing to add I haven't seen mentioned: after 7 years living & working in
Manhattan/Brooklyn, my network is saturated with people in a dozen different
industries who all seem to have careers advancing at 2x speed of the people I
know anywhere else.

I consistently meet people in their late 20's and early 30's who are serious
players in a wide variety of business and artistic endeavors. I don't have to
go more than one degree of separation to find someone at the top of any field.
I know less entrepreneurs here than in SV, but the cross-pollination in NYC is
a big deal.

------
SatvikBeri
Having lived in both San Francisco and New York (and a dozen other places), I
can attest that all the OP's points sound factually correct-dating is much
easier for straight men, commutes are shorter, and there is a lot more
diversity when it comes to careers.

------
dr_
I live in the New York City area. The benefits you state are true however if
you are in fact contemplating a start up your access to engineers in the
Silicon Valley area are going to be far greater than in the New York City
area. That may be changing but sometimes groupthink can be positive thing. It
can help nurture and further develop an industry. You mentioned the finance
industry being in New York however realize that the finance industry developed
in New York because of groupthink.

~~~
__abc
Everything I've heard is that it is near impossible to find talent in Silicon
Valley. I've heard it's also the same in NYC ... shit, it's the same
everywhere.

~~~
jellicle
With a quarter of the young population out of work, nevertheless the idea that
it's "impossible to find talent" continues.

It's like a new blacksmith coming into town and complaining that there aren't
any trained blacksmiths for him to hire, while staring at 50 strong farmboys
who are holding up "will work for food" signs.

If only there was some way of teaching people new skills... but alas, no such
thing exists.

~~~
gruseom
_If only there was some way of teaching people new skills_

It's the other way around. If those farmboys you postulate don't have the
initiative and aptitude to take up hacking, they're unlikely to be a great
addition to a software team. The last thing you need is someone passively
waiting to be told what to do and taught how to do it.

It would be great to be proven wrong about this, but I've seen lots of
examples of it being a problem and not one counterexample.

If mainstream culture changes to one in which the idea of doing this work and
being excited by it and making things with it becomes widespread, then one
might see significant growth in the talent pool. If more creative sparks are
flying around, the chance of one of your farmboys catching fire is greater.
But that's a longer-term process. To become good at this stuff, people don't
need training - they need inspiration.

~~~
nick_dm
In my experience most companies aren't interested in "initiative and
aptitude". They are generally unwilling to look at people without a few years
of experience already.

I moved to NYC and started job-hunting in early 2011. I didn't have a
background in software development but I had programmed in VBA for 18 months
(pricing insurance), used R for my statistics masters degree project and had
been dabbling in Python for around 5 years (all self-taught).

Through direct applications, headhunters and networking at various meetup
events I hunted for tech and tech/finance jobs for about eight months. While
things would sometimes look promising, if usually came down to "we're really
looking for someone with a bit more experience in X". I did manage to find
some freelance work (for a Python/Django web startup) but they decided that
rather than another backend programmer they needed someone who could do
frontend development and system administration...

After leaving NYC my sister got a call, "is your brother still looking for a
job in New York?", and I ended up back here working as an accountant. I didn't
have any experience in accounting either (though I had taken some classes in
the past) but my new boss was happy to bring me in on a three month contract
and see how things worked out (I got a permanent offer after a month and a
half).

~~~
gruseom
Yeah. I think the answer there is: fuck those companies. The sooner we start
new ones that get this right, the fewer their days are numbered.

But you may have missed my point by a couple degrees. It wasn't that companies
should look at initiative and aptitude directly. It's that those are the
things that drive you to acquire the skills that make you good. Then you can
prove that you're good.

How exactly to prove you're good, or for companies to tell who's good, is a
billion (trillion?) dollar question that's in flux right now. But clearly it
has more to do with showing work and less with weak proxies like years of
experience (which may be years of doing things badly) or resumes (a skill
uncorrelated if not inversely correlated with good programming). Since
startups are starved for good hackers, somebody's going to figure this out,
gain a huge edge, and pave the way for the rest.

In the meantime, training/retraining programs are not going to increase the
talent pool much. Something fresh like Hacker School might, though.

Edit: in my opinion the eventual answer is going to be found by reasoning
backward from Christopher Alexander's great question, "What feels more alive?"
But obviously that isn't much help to someone in the situation you describe
right now. So how did it work out? Do you like accounting or would you rather
be programming?

~~~
nick_dm
Thanks for the reply. I get your point that the initiative and aptitude are
the starting point, but as you mentioned, looking for "proof" of ability is
very tricky, particularly for people without much experience. Of course had I
known I would be unemployed for 6+ months at the offset I could have planned a
project that ticked lots of boxes (Django frontend, NumpPy, SQLAlchemy,
PyMongo etc. etc.). I love the idea of Hacker School and wish I'd known about
it at the time, I'm sure it would have helped me build a portfolio of work.
While I did have some side projects I'd spend a lot of time learning to match
a job spec or recruiters recommendations only to find the interviewer fixating
on something else, other times I'd be strung along ("we'll be looking to hire
in a month or so, why not brush up on X in the meantime?") and then the job
would disappear (cash-flow issues, change in priorities, new CTO decides to
scrap Python and rewrite in node.js ;)

Ultimately I'd rather be programming. My current job is OK and I'll stick at
it for now, I owe my boss for taking a chance on me and they'd struggle if I
left before the end of the year (we are a small team and in the middle of
switching accounting systems and finalizing an acquisition). I do like the
fact that I get exposed to a range of business issues, as my previous job in
the insurance industry was a little more technical but very narrow in scope.
Long-term it probably doesn't suit me (though it might be different at another
company), I've automated some tasks in Access/VBA but there is a line between
finance and IT (partially outsourced or contractors) and I'm expected to use
systems rather than improve them. At least I can at least work on some longer-
term programing projects in my free time, but it's frustrating to be left
thinking "maybe next year", rather than living in the moment!

~~~
gruseom
There is one way in which you are at an advantage. You're gaining domain
knowledge, and a programmer with domain knowledge has definitely leveled up.
Assuming of course that you would enjoy writing software for said domain.

------
jballanc
I think the elevator in my building is a perfect metaphor for New York
city...bear with me...

When we were first shown the building, all I noticed was that the walls of the
elevator were _covered_ in graffiti! The very picture of urban blight.

A couple of months after we moved in, I took a moment to actually read the
graffiti: "Bach!", "Ravel", "Beethoven sucks!", "Tchaikovsky 4 eva", and so
on. Turns out, we live 2 blocks from the Manhattan school of music.

------
cletus
My previous team was split between Mountain View and New York. We'd travel
back and forth. Don't get me wrong: I love the Bay Area. The weather for one
thing is simply heaven.

We'd often get into debates about this. My argument is that it is cheaper to
live in New York than the Bay Area. The main reason for this is that almost
anywhere you live in the Bay Area you will have a car. Between car payment,
insurance, gas and maintenance you will more than make up for any difference
in rent.

Your only real option to living without a car is to live in SF. That means an
hour commute _minimum_ each way every day (on the bus). Sometimes it can
double with traffic on the 101. You have to catch them when they're running
(4-6 times in the morning and evening?). Or if you don't have a bus option
it's Caltrain + bus. Caltrain runs every hour during the day (slightly more
often in peak hours).

Even if your bus has wifi and you can allegedly do work I'd rather not waste
2-3 hours of my life on it each day.

Compare this to New York. Areas around the office (Chelsea, Meatpacking,
West/Greenwich Village, Union Square) are expensive but I still have a second
story (true) one bedroom walkup 7 minutes walk from work for $2000/month.

A friend lives in Crown Heights in Brooklyn. Door to door will typically take
him ~35 minutes. His one bedroom is $1000/month. How far afield are you going
to have to go in SV to find a one bedroom for that price (or, worse, that
price including the car cost, even adjusting for spending $100/month on a
monthly metro card).

And I'd much rather rely on the Subway (or the commuter trains for that
matter) than anything in Norcal (although I found the combination of BART +
buses fine in SF even though I knew many people who complained about them).
It's like $2.25 to go anywhere in the city and it runs 24x7.

Rent in Manhattan is certainly expensive but you don't need to live in
Manhattan. You can choose to (as I have) but you don't need to. You can get a
pretty nice apartment in Forest Hills and have a relatively easy run in on the
E train if you wish. Williamsburg is full of hipsters but is convenient
(except when the L train stops running, which seems to happen all too often).

So rent aside, everything else is the same cost of cheaper. Food especially is
cheaper. A Thai restaurant around the corner has $2-6 appetizer and <$10
entrees. A Malaysian place I like in Chinatown has ~$7 entrees. Why anyone
cooks in this city is beyond me.

On the way to work there are 3-4 laundromats. The one I go to is open from
7am-11pm 7 days a week and as long as I get them my clothes before about 1-2pm
will have them back the same day, washed, dried, folded and sealed for <$1/lb.

If you have a family you can stay in the city (expensive) or move to the
commuter belt (as most people do). Long Island, upstate NY or NJ (or further
afield at places like CT, PA) have good affordable options. If you're married
and have kids you'll probably only need 1 car rather than 2 (since the trains
will cover you during the week to go to work).

New York really is great. Although if I weren't working for Google I'm not
sure who I'd want to work for. Foursquare? Maybe but you're essentially
banking on them getting bought out (admittedly, this seems fairly likely).
Tumblr? Maybe. Amazon? I think they're out of the city somewhere. Palantir?
Maybe. SV certainly has got way more choice.

~~~
ljlolel
You say it's cheaper, then use the example of a $2000 apartment which is an
_insane_ amount to pay for housing. Then you (correctly) note that the cheap
places are actually really far (and annoying) commutes. BART stations are much
cleaner than NYC subway stations, I find the trips much more pleasant.

Your startup could also be in SF (not MV) saving you the commute, have you
thought about that?

Eating fast food <$7 will quickly make you feel pretty unhealthy in NY. All
that greasy pizza and chinese food. You're also not conveniently not including
tax (which is high in NY) and tip. Real sustainable eating will cost double
that in NY.

Good, healthy, cheap food in SF is pretty common, it's the lifestyle there.

> Door to door will typically take him ~35 minutes.

Bull. Maybe if he jumps out of his building, sprints to the stop, and the
subway car just happens to be waiting for him the moment you get there. The
fact is that if you work late into the night, the cars come less frequently,
especially to/from places outside of Manhattan. You have to factor in average
wait time (since NY Subways still don't track subway cars like any other good
transit system). My closest subway stops would also be closed for days or
weeks at a time randomly for upkeep. Don't forget that, during rush hour, you
stand in a sardine can with a hundred other people.

Also, NY culture is a consumption culture. Even if you can possibly scrape by
with less, you're in a culture that actively goes out and pays huge amounts
for drinks at bars, measures class by where you live and places you shop, and
you'll invariable end up paying some or a lot of money for cabs because of
closed subway routes or maybe you just get sick of the dirty, cold subway.

I've done startups in both areas for years. I notice that people in New York
justify the low quality of life by claiming the best possible aspect of
something is the norm. It's not the norm. 35 minute commutes from Brooklyn,
$2-$6 appetizers (who measures food costs in terms of appetizers??). $1000/mo
one-bedrooms and 7-minute commutes have 0 correlation in NY.

~~~
potatolicious
Disclaimer: I live in SF, not NYC, but I disagree with your post.

> _"$2000 apartment which is an insane amount to pay for housing."_

SF is at the same level now. A solid 1BR in the city proper (as opposed to
say, out in Outer Richmond) will easily hit $2000. And beyond. New
construction (SOMA) would be closer to $3-4K. This is in the same range as
what both dev_jim and cletus claim.

> _"BART stations are much cleaner than NYC subway stations, I find the trips
> much more pleasant."_

Being someone who commutes on BART daily, no, they're really not. MTA stations
are _older_ and slightly more run-down looking, but cleanliness-wise, they're
about the same. The interesting thing is that MTA subway trains are
_considerably_ cleaner than _any_ BART train.

Hell, if we're going to talk about general city cleanliness - just about any
sidewalk in Manhattan is much, much cleaner than any sidewalk in SF. I don't
know about you, but I've never had to dodge human excrement in NYC, whereas it
seems to be a semi-frequent occurrence here in the City.

> _"Eating fast food <$7 will quickly make you feel pretty unhealthy in NY.
> All that greasy pizza and chinese food."_

As opposed to greasy Chinese food in the Sunset? Burritos in the Mission? The
food scene between the two cities are not too different - both NYC and SF have
a lot of cheap, good-for-you food if you know where to find it. Both cities
also have a whole lot of greasy stuff-that-will-kill-you food that's just as
easily accessible. If you think eating cheaply in NYC necessitates pizza and
Chinese takeout, you're sorely mistaken, just as you would be mistaken if you
thinking burritos are a necessary food in SF.

> _"The fact is that if you work late into the night, the cars come less
> frequently"_

This is true in SF also. Live in Oakland and work in the city? Welp, you're
fucked, frequently. BART also shuts down at midnight, which puts you in a SOL
position a lot more often than it would be in NYC. I've talked to numerous
cabbies/Uber drivers who laugh at the idea of doing an East Bay run on a busy
night. You can't even find a cab to drive you across the bridge at exorbitant
rates! :P

> _"Don't forget that, during rush hour, you stand in a sardine can with a
> hundred other people."_

Hop on a BART car at rush hour. Or worse, hop on a MUNI train at rush hour in
one of the downtown stations - I've been on a NY subway car during rush, it's
actually marginally _emptier_ than, say, the N-Judah at rush.

> _"$1000/mo one-bedrooms"_

Have you looked at SF housing prices lately? You can't even find a studio in
the Tenderloin for $1K.

~~~
velshin
I've lived in SF and Tokyo and spent time in NYC. @potatolicious is spot on
with this post. NYC streets and subway cars are, generally, cleaner than the
equivalent in SF. Crime's lower (per capita, not totals) in NYC than SF too.
You also don't witness as much derelicts and gang bangers on an evening stroll
down a NYC street as you do in SF.

@cletus was right about the job scene though. Most tech companies HQ are in SF
and there's a wealth of jobs. NYC's tech scene is still up and coming. As
we've seen with Austin , Seattle, and NC/Research Triangle, "up and coming"
can last for a long, long time.

------
utopkara
People have a huge capacity to adapt. For single people the flexibility is
even more. I'd say, even if you go to Cicely, Alaska you'll get used to it and
like it.

Now, if you would like to innovate, and be part of something big, your chances
of realizing those are very slim if you live outside the big magnets. SV, New
York, Boston are fine but the opportunities diminish very fast as the density
of tech companies gets smaller. There are interesting exceptions though. For
instance the Raleigh-Durham area has a good combination of schools (fresh
talent), and tech companies. If you are at that point in your life that you
need to choose where you will pick a home, think carefully, and do your
research.

------
robbiesh
I love New York, and it definitely feels like the startup community is growing
here. My only thought is that the startups in NYC may be a bit more "big
payoff" driven than "creating value" driven. I honestly can't say for sure
though because I haven't spent any amount of time in the Valley.

Being totally self-promotional here, but I just made a video about moving to
New York for a startup. Please don't take it seriously.

<http://blog.kevinroseeffect.com/post/20127362923>

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rudiger
You can argue that NYC is a better place to meet women than SF, but is it
really because there's slightly more women than men in the general population?
I think it's due to a variety of other factors:

Different mindset of people in NYC than in SF (compare NYC's finance and
fashion industries to SF's technology industry)...

Better logistics in NYC than in SF (in NYC: 24/7 public transport, plenty of
taxis, no car culture, and apartments nearby; in SF: BART isn't 24/7, taxis
scarcer, many have their own vehicles, and people live farther)...

What else?

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wickedchicken
If the OP is at all interested in the industries he says he is, then NYC all
the way. It is a better city than SF on virtually every metric except burritos
and nightlife.

The reason I left NYC was that it didn't have a vibe for "technology for
technology's sake." If you're a more low-level engineer (knee-deep in circuits
and C) then NYC is _really_ going to push against you; the opportunities are
fewer and the culture surrounding you values that less than financial sales or
'hustling' (Adafruit being a counterexample). You'd have to specifically hang
out around Columbia, drive upstate, or grab the Fung Wah to Boston to get that
kind of vibe. In the Bay you're immersed in it.

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T-hawk
One of the best places to live in New York is New Jersey. Large areas of
Hoboken and Jersey City are just as easy for a Manhattan commute via the PATH
subway or bus or even a ferry. Rent goes roughly 25% cheaper for similar digs,
everything from basement studios to ultramodern luxury towers. Bonus: you
don't pay NYC income tax, and NJ sales tax is less too.

I've lived in NJ and commuted to Manhattan for essentially my entire
professional life, and quite satisfied with it. I currently commute by ferry
which is insanely pleasant compared to a subway.

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noelwelsh
I haven't travelled as much as some, but I've travelled enough to learn that
nowhere has the monopoly on the best way of life. Australia has great weather
and a relaxed outdoors lifestyle, but few opportunities in technology, not
much cultural life, and an over-reliance on cars. London has amazing energy
and cultural institutions, but it is crowded and expensive. Then consider that
things which are important now might not be important in ten years time.

There is no best place to live. There is just the best place to live for you
right now.

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otrofimo
Michael, it is very interesting that you chose New York and I wish you all the
best. I say that it is interesting because I chose to move from New York to
San Francisco at the end of last year. One of the main reasons is the attitude
of each respective city.

New York will always have a special place in my heart as I grew up in lower
part of brooklyn until I moved to Jersey in 7th grade. It was one of the
greatest times of my life. I only returned to the city after I graduated
college two years ago. Maybe it was a personal experience but after working in
NYC(manhattan) I thought it was one of the coldest and most distant places I
have ever experienced. It was the feeling of the city, for all the "if you can
make it here you can make it anywhere" there is a lack of collaboration, it is
selfish, it feels like people are only out for #1. There is this aura of being
better than others, almost snobbishness, which is something I have yet to find
in San Francisco.

San Fran is also incredible in terms of the level of intellectual curiosity
that you see in most people. Individuals and groups are building,creating,
innovating. I don't remember who said it(maybe it was Paul Graham in Hackers
and Painters) but there was a comparison of modern day San Francisco to
Florence during the Renaissance. I tried to look for resources in New York,
but it felt like I was always meeting the same kind of people. I found that
people were just living, going to restaurants, talking celebrity gossip. There
was no ambition to better oneself, there was no ambition to learn. There is
ambition to make money though.

Your point about groupthink is well noted. I would like to point out that
artistically, culturally, and musically NYC and SF are not that different. SF
is the city of free thinking and has spawned many radical movements (Summer of
Love, Beatniks, LGBT social movement), and continues to be ripe with
underground/subculture movements. I cannot say NYC doesn't have the Village,
but it is a remnant of what it once was as it has undergone extensive
gentrification.

Either way these I think are two of the more open cities in the United States
and have an environment where one in theory can succeed. Personally I believe
that San Fran simply has a different mindset which is embodied in the people.

You can be as successful as you want to be, just be wary of the environmental
factors that may sway you into a lifestyle that makes you feel as if you are
running in place

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prgibbons
Try Vegas. You can get a luxury 1 bedroom high rise condo on the strip for
$1,500/month. Off strip a great 1 bedroom is $800-900 and it comes with an
attached garage. The entire Vegas valley is only about 20 miles in diameter so
you are never far from anywhere. Commute times are short and off strip,
traffic is not bad at all.

$65,000 in Vegas buys you the same quality of life as $100,000 in SF.

~~~
MyNewAccount
" buys you the same quality of life" I guess you don't factor weather into
quality of life.

~~~
prgibbons
112F feels great.... in the pool.

That said, NY is really hot in the summer and really cold in the winter. I've
been to SF and the weather seems too cold and gloomy (50 and overcast in
August!!!!)

------
glenntzke
Don't forget the cost of living in NYC - a cost that will be significantly
increased by your networking and socializing habits. I live and work in the
city and love it and the employment opportunity is enormous here. Your
LinkedIn account will explode if it hasn't already.

~~~
driverdan
The cost of living in the valley is on par with NYC.

~~~
weeksie
I would be extremely surprised if that was true. Even if you count not having
to own a car or commute as long-distance in New York. I live in a 1 bedroom
apartment that is 2550/month and _everything_ is more expensive here. A bottle
of wine that might cost $9 in most places is $14 here. Bars and restaurants
are far more expensive than they are elsewhere in the states, and city tax
kills me to the tune of around $800/month.

~~~
mahyarm
Rent prices have reached about par according to padmapper.com. Mountain View,
a somewhat shabby and boring suburb, that wouldn't be costly if it wasn't for
SV, is the same price as brooklyn.

Amazon Prime pretty much removes most of the price and sales tax inequality.

The tax difference is real. But then again, the tax difference compared to
austin or seattle is also very real too.

------
bengl3rt
1h 30m commute is only if you insist on busing down to Apple or Google every
day. There are plenty of companies you can work for in SF that you can reach
in much less time.

And if you think it's going to be affordable to live five minutes walk from
your office in NYC, think again.

(disclaimer: lived in both)

~~~
michael_miller
I agree with you on SF. There are certainly a bunch of great companies to work
for there. However, at the risk of angering a lot of people, the majority of
promising startups are in the South Bay.

NYC is expensive, but not unbelievably so, especially when put next to SF. To
live within a 5-10m walk of Palantir's office in the West Village is roughly
$4k for a 2BR(so I'll be paying $2k/month). Certainly not low rent by any
stretch of the imagination, but it is definitely affordable with an engineer's
salary. Also, the difference in salary compensates for this cost.

~~~
qq66
I'm not sure where you're getting your information that the majority of
promising startups are in the South Bay.

The energy in Silicon Valley has been shifting northwards for the last 10
years. The majority of large companies are in the South Bay, but among
companies less than 5 years old, there are as many great ones in SF as in
PA/MV.

------
barce
When I think of dating in New York as a straight male, my experience has been
"the odds are good, but the goods are odd." I've lived there twice. If you are
at the top of your game you can find whatever relationship you want anywhere.

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OtisWildflower
Enjoy the taxes, costs and restrictions! Plus, the movie talkers and the
stench of public transit!

I did the reverse (East coast -> Austin) and could not possibly be happier.

------
eli_gottlieb
How did Boston-Cambridge somehow get completely overlooked? It seems like that
used to be the East Coast start-up center, but now it's New York.

------
owensmartin
Sorry to offer the most trite comment possible, but how does a 22-year-old
trying to pick up chicks constitute "hacker news"?

------
chauzer
[video] <http://vimeo.com/39219306>

------
tnash
Also on the plus side, a much lower chance of dying in a horrible earthquake.

------
jrobbins
You want tech, diversity, ideas, women? Come to LA! The startup culture in
Southern California is very strong now.

~~~
carguy1983
There's a lot of reasons to move to LA / Santa Monica, but I'd say for the
women isn't one of them. The girls in NY are much friendlier, probably due to
the fact that they outnumber men and most of them aren't from NY.

In LA the men still outnumber the women (all you need to do is walk into a
crowded bar to see this - it's almost as bad as SF, though not quite) and most
of the women are originally from southern CA. Take that as you will.

Having said all that, if you're married/relationshipped/gay?, you can't really
beat it if you can afford it!

------
benihana
This article reads like a rationalization by a college student who is basing
all of his knowledge of these places on second-hand accounts and stereotypes.
Does this guy really think that San Francisco isn't diverse? Does he really
not understand that he's going to be around engineers (the vast majority of
whom are white dudes) all day anyway and that the diversity of the area has
little to do with that? Does he really believe that all anyone talks about in
SF is social media and daily deals?

How about come back in 6 months after you've moved and list the preconceived
notions you had that were wrong, and the ones you had that were right and how
you like living in NYC? Because this kind of reads like it's going to be this
way because this is how I expect it to be.

 _Disclaimer: I'm moving to New York City in less than two weeks_

~~~
GFKjunior
I have to agree with you. I'm a texas grad finishing up in May but moving to
SF and this sounds like a kid who is going purely off of word of mouth.

But he did say he has only stayed in the South Bay area, it's worlds apart
from SF. Palo Alto to Sf is like Fredericksburg to Austin.

What I found funniest was the stat about more women in NYC. The ratio is not
really important, I've dated tons of girls in both and have found that it is
easier in SF. SF has a diverse female population, and minimal competition as
most of the guys are “window shoppers” with no game (read shy engineers) which
makes a lot bigger difference than raw numbers.

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collegeportalme
Valley:NYC::Hollywood:Britain-hollywood Each has it's own problems... I
respect your decision, but Valley will forever by Valley

------
vaksel
It seems like NYC just seems like a hub, because people are already there and
don't want to move.

Very few people who decide to uproot to start their startup elsewhere actually
choose NYC over SV.

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is, lets face it, most programmers are
more or less geeks, so all this talk about the better night life and clubs,
dating/mingling opportunities etc probably doesn't even apply.

It's all about the person really.

Someone outgoing, will find all of those even in the middle of nowhere in
Kansas. And someone with social anxiety will have problems no matter where
they are.

~~~
saiko-chriskun
wow, you think engineers don't date? hahahah how naive can you get.

