
Japan’s 105-Hour Workweek - mwfj
http://roadsandkingdoms.com/2015/japans-105-hour-workweek/
======
euske
Ha, ha. What a dystopian country. Except, wait, this is the very country I've
been living for decades.

Where to start with? First, the language. The translation of the common
phrase, "Otsukare sama desu" isn't "you look tired" (this is already a
misleading and insidious tactic to set the whole tone). The phrase is roughly
synonymous to "Gokurou sama desu" but with more sympathy. The literal
translation would be "it's hardwork-sama (Mr/Ms. hardwork)", and there's a
reason that we use honorifics, which is to admire one's effort.

I can't have a word for the gross exaggeration of the work hours in the
article, but I'm certain that one of the big reasons for some people to
overwork is not loyalty, but fear. It's often said in Japan "incompetent men
tend to overwork" and I find it generally true. In this society of lifetime
employment, getting fired or demoted at work has very serious consequences. So
they often use their long work hours as an excuse or emotional appeal, which
can (sadly) still work. But from what I've seen many managements actually hate
the employee's over hours because it's costly and inefficient. It's just that
it takes a time to change the people's mindset, but I think the situations are
slowly getting improved.

It is probably true that we have more perfectionist/anal-retentive kind of
people, but again they're generally the result of fear rather than enthusiasm
or moral, because their anal-retentiveness doesn't necessarily result in
quality work. A lot of lengthy and pointless paperwork, excess bureaucracy,
etc, etc. I pity those people, and hope we have more social mobility to
dissolve their anxiety.

~~~
OSButler
Costly? I was under the impression that this kind of overtime isn't
compensated in a lot of cases?

I've heard one reasoning that if they wouldn't do the (free) overtime, then
there wouldn't be a company for them to work at, as it couldn't afford to pay
their employees then. However, this was a mid-sized local business and not a
multi-national corporation.

~~~
ranko
The price of overtime to an employer isn't only (or even mostly) the pay -
it's also the impact on the rest of the employee's work. Tom DeMarco and
Timothy Lister claim in "Peopleware" that "there will be more or less an hour
of undertime for every hour of overtime".

------
jernfrost
I come from a country with the opposite work culture, Norway. We got short
days. So does much of northern Europe including Germany. What I don't like
about this work hour obsession is the idea that it indicates how hard people
work. You can't tell that by hours worked each day. The Greeks work the
longest hours in Europe but anybody who has been to Germany and Greece would
probably tell you that the Germans probably work harder.

I have a family member who worked in Thailand, which like much of asia has
long work hours. But he was far less stressed there than in Norway with his
short work hours. In Norway there was no time for anything but work while at
work. In Thailand he had lots of time at work to take care of non-work related
tasks.

Especially if you got kids in Norway, you end up getting quite stressed even
if you work short hours because you don't have the opportunity to dump the
whole responsibility of children onto the wife like in Japan. You have to
hurry back from work to pick up kids from pre-school/school, help with school
work, make dinner, get them ready for bed etc.

Comparing to American work culture which I know best having worked with a lot
of Americans I think in Norway we tend to mainly work while at work and
socialize after work. While in the US there is a lot more of non-work related
activity at work because people spend a lot more time at work. Nothing right
or wrong with that. Earlier I worked a lot American style. Spending long hours
at work but also socializing more with colleagues.

My point is that I don't think people necessarily should be worshiped for how
many hours they spend at work. It is what you do that matters.

~~~
paulojreis
> The Greeks work the longest hours in Europe but anybody who has been to
> Germany and Greece would probably tell you that the Germans probably work
> harder.

I don't agree with the "work harder" motive. I'm a Portuguese guy, working for
a German company. Half of my team is German and based in Germany, but we visit
and are visited very often. As you certainly know, and much like the Greeks,
Portuguese rank very high in the amount of hours worked, and very low in
productivity. From my experience (and second-hand experience in the company),
Germans don't work harder than Portuguese. I also wouldn't say that they work
smarter.

I'm not really sure I can point you the exact reason why Germans are more
productive (which we know they are, because econometrics et al - but they
don't _seem_ to be, working with me on a daily basis). The best I can come up
with is systemic advantage. The whole social system seems to be wired for
productivity, which isn't true in here (Portugal). It's hard to pinpoint
reasons, but I'd say corruption, taking advantage of the state, and all the
_small things_. Education doesn't seem to be working here in Portugal; we have
an obsessive focus on STEM here, and end up _producing_ very good engineers
but very bad citizens. :)

It's the small things, really. Every day you'll notice traffic going slow
because someone thought that it's legitimate to park in the road (instead of
finding a valid parking place) just to grab some bread or groceries; it really
seems a small thing, but embodies (IMHO) the problem: somebody thought that
it's valid to make tens or hundreds of people slow down (and risk accidents)
just to avoid wasting his personal five minutes to find a parking space.

------
dkural
Simply false. It contradicts statistical fact and scientific fact.

1) Average annual hours worked:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_ho...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_hours_actually_worked_per_worker)

2) The vast majority of humans cannot survive with average sleep length of
4-5h per night on a consistent basis: We will literally, physically die. In
reality, the Japanese sleep between 7 and 8 hours on average:
[http://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/english/reports/summary/201104/0...](http://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/english/reports/summary/201104/01.html)

~~~
hkmurakami
That wikipedia data for Japan is artifically low either because (1) overtime
is often unreported and unpaid in Japan (more common in small companies but
also true in highly profitable places, including my own former employer) and
(2) much of the young workforce is underemployed much like in the States.

It is true also that the numbers will differ from industry to industry, tier
to tier. The worst is probably the smaller System Integration "SI" shops. The
Mizuho Bank System Integration work going on right now is one much project
that will be a multi-year "death march". And yes, people do actually die in
these projects. You don't get terms like Karoshi entering Western vernacular
without cause.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi)

Even at my former gig, there was a building occupied by the Integrated
Circuits team that was called "The Castle with no Night" because the motion
detection enabled lights never went out.

------
jzwinck
In NYC I worked at a firm where they had to lock the doors and do a security
sweep at midnight to prevent people from sleeping under the desks so they
could work more. This was a during a training class--not even real work! This
wasn't even an investment bank or law firm--the two places in NYC most noted
for such extreme "work ethic."

In Singapore there is a well-known phenomenon where employees will not leave
the office until (just) after the boss leaves. It doesn't matter if there is
nothing left to do--you must never be seen leaving first. For a year I arrived
to work 1-2 hours earlier than everyone else, and you know what appeared on my
year-end review? "Leaves the office too early."

------
a3n
> In 2007, ﻿Mitsubishi UFJ Trust & Banking initiated a program to allow
> employees to go home up to three hours early to care for children or elderly
> relatives. _After two years, only 34 of the company’s 7,000 employees had
> signed up for the program_.

After two years, only 34 people were willing to be officially identified as
people who go home early.

~~~
guycook
Sounds like the 'unlimited vacation' that's getting quite popular in the
Valley

~~~
jackcosgrove
Unlimited vacation is an accounting trick. If a company is acquired, promised
yet unclaimed vacation is a liability reducing valuation. Unlimited vacation
means the company has not promised a set amount for the year and thus is not
liable for it, paradoxically.

------
operant
I still find it really, _REALLY_ bizarre and totalitarian that there are
corporations that sing The Company Song at morning meetings.

That kind of thing just disturbs the ever-living shit out of me, and seems
beyond abnormal.

Does that kind of thing still happen? It feels like a certain, painful breed
of brainwashing, or B.F. Skinner-style operant conditioning, is needed to
command behavior like that.

~~~
yongjik
You're gonna _love_ this (from Samsung):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DFtWPn3aBA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DFtWPn3aBA)

(Safe for work, though pretty depressing)

~~~
joe563323
Samsung is the worst company to work for. Once you leave the company you can
not join later. That is illegal but they do it anyway, because they are the
boss.

------
TokyoStrayCat
This is solely based on my personal experience working in Japan. Reasons why
people at my work place work over time:

1\. For more pay. We don't get paid a lot (roughly 1,000 yen an hour for full
time contracted lifetime employee), so overtime (2,000 per hour) helps. 2\.
Peer pressure. People generally look down on others who leave early. They will
mockingly say things like, "wow I'm so envious that you don't have any work."
Unless you have some "legitimate" reason (children, illness).

------
Htsthbjig
I lived one year or so in Japan and could not stand it, after living in Korea
for some time and China for 5 years or so. I am European.

When talking with European friends about Japan, they joke about the religion
of Japan not being Shinto, but Shigoto(work).

Being alien in the country, with knowledge they did not have, gave me freedom
that locals could not dream but I suffered a lot for them. Working to a
certain point and your productivity becomes negative in an objective way.

But you can't change it because you have to fight against society. The worst
thing is that in lots of ways the US is increasingly going down the same path.

It used to be that this was common in Soviet Russia, the output of your work
did not matter as much as your input. A tank was "two times better" if it
required double quantity of materials, or double assembly hours. So "acting
like they were doing a good job" was more important that doing a good job.

It looks like the natural consequence of central planning.

------
VeejayRampay
This article about the Japanese workplace culture through the lens of an
anglo-saxon person working there somehow echoes my experience as a Frenchman
living and working in North America.

Long hours, not necessarily done efficiently, a culture of pride in the long
hours you're putting in and a total disregard for the fact that the human
brain needs rest to go full speed without burning out.

Balancing personal life, rest, family and physical activity just becomes
unfeasible past 40 hours a week, ain't it?

------
sdrothrock
As someone who lives in Japan, I thought I'd give some background information
about the pictures included in the article. They're (edit: the pictures AND
the captions) clearly chosen to give credence to the "Japanese salaryman"[1]
who's always busy and "works to death."[2]

I'll go over the pictures in order displayed in the article, using their
captions as a guide.

> Salarymen resting midmeal.

A common theme in the selected pictures is that the people in them are
relaxing and I think the implication is supposed to be that they're working
105-hour weeks and they're trying to grab rest where they can.

This is not an unusual sight in Japan or America. You go out to eat with
coworkers you like, then you sit back and chat. The Japanese image of someone
who's really busy is someone who eats a lunch box or rice ball at his desk
while working.

Edit: They're sitting on the floor because they're in a Japanese-style
restaurant, so it's easier to lean back on your elbows because there's no
chair.

> Staring into nothingness in Hakodate.

This guy isn't staring off into nothingness because he's depressed or so tired
he can't think; he's smoking. People tend to stare off into the distance if
they're smoking alone and not using their phones or something.

> Standing salarymen eating.

Crowded cities mean strangely-shaped shops with little room for seating. Sushi
and noodle bars lend themselves especially well to this kind of standing
restaurant since both can be prepared quickly and eaten while standing. All
kinds of people eat at these places, not just salarymen. One of the best udon
restaurants in my neighborhood is like this.

> Passed out on the train

Looks like a special express, almost definitely not a bullet train given the
decor. If you're riding one of those, you're probably traveling for at least
an hour. You don't have to be working 105-hour weeks to want to take a nap on
a trip where you have nothing to do for an hour.

[1] The idea that there's a generic "Japanese salaryman" is ridiculous. The
word itself just means someone who works in an office. Imagine if you gave a
single label to every full-time employee in an office in America -- that's how
it comes across when Western media uses it.

[2] Another popular "exotic, overworked Japan" meme that comes up is the fact
that there's a compound word (過労死, karoushi) for "death by overwork." This is
no more exciting than the fact that you can say "death by overwork" in
English.

~~~
Ezhik
I wonder if I'll ever see a picture of myself napping on the subway in an
article about overworked NYC residents?

------
karaokeyoga
I like the author's writing style. However, it's misleading to make such
sweeping generalizations about Japan. I lived in Kyoto for six years. My
children went to the local school, and I knew many of the fathers. Nobody I
knew was in the situation described here.

The subway at 5-6pm was crowded with salarymen returning from their jobs.

The life of a salaryman lawyer in downtown Tokyo does not extend to the entire
country. The author himself, to his credit, might not fully realize this yet.

I also concur with the comments I've read here from other residents of Japan.

------
regularmike
I know this is supposedly just lawyers and other specialists, although it
sounds like it's not much better for other "salarymen." I'm having trouble
corroborating the actual numbers, though. And if so many men are getting so
little sleep, how is life expectancy still so high in Japan? Any other sources
for this?

~~~
chrisfosterelli
Yeah, I would be really interested in knowing what the statistics are like for
IT related careers such as Software Development.

------
ripberge
How can you be working just as efficiently as Western counterparts when you're
napping? I don't know about being a lawyer, but in my own experience it is
impossible for me to program effectively after about 10 hours. Wouldn't
surprise me if there are rare exceptions, but generally the human body just
does not handle that well.

------
pm24601
This guardian article makes the consequences of this overwork clear: Japan's
birth rate is lower than its death rate. (
[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-
ja...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-
stopped-having-sex) )

------
jason_slack
There are early Apple/Jobs stories about working "90 hours a week and loving
it". I know people that put in 80 hours a week here in the U.S. The most I
have ever put in was 65-70 hours for a job that I really liked.

------
teek
This is mainly second-hand information. I haven't worked at a Japanese
company, the closest I've gotten was interviews and a sort of off the record
job offer. I have lived in the country for 1 year though, so I definitely saw
the actual hours friends were at work or busy because of work.

1\. Japanese business culture sees labor laws as guidelines.

2\. Being overworked (meaning enduring or working extra hours) is seen as a
"good" thing.

3\. Doing anything to sabotage the team effort (including working fewer hours,
not being available, not asking to help others) is seen as the worst thing you
could do.

4\. Being granted a week off by your company is seen as generous (even though
you may be allocated 2 or more weeks a year). The corollary to this is not
taking your allocated vacation hours is seen as a good thing.

5\. You don't miss work due to a cold, you put on a mask and show up anyway.

6\. Punctuality is in some ways more important than doing the actual job. This
is why people go through great efforts to jam into a single train in order to
not be late by even 5 minutes.

7\. Apologies are expected, more than reasons or explanations. The message
your superior wants to hear isn't that you screwed up, it is that you are
inferior and have no excuse and he is superior to you (hence an apology). This
is a legacy of Japan's feudal days; Japanese large corporations are
essentially the transformation of what used to be feudal powers.

8\. Confrontation is avoided at great lengths. This is why Japanese have a
hard time of saying "no". This implies that if your boss asks for work to be
done, you will undoubtedly agree without complaint.

9\. Women are paid significantly less than men, but the trade off is a woman
can quit her job to rear children and not be "penalized" from a social
standpoint. Men get paid more than women but Japanese culture expects that the
man of the family will pay for his wife and children in full through
retirement even if the woman doesn't work a single day.

10\. Since men are the de facto breadwinner, and women often don't work to
take care of the household/children, men are expected (even by their own
families) to work longer hours in order to advance the entire family. It is
not uncommon for the father of a family to live/work in a city 2-3 hours away
from where his family resides.

11\. "Black" company (in Japanese) is a term that refers to businesses that
have mandatory overtime (12+ hour days). I guesstimate roughly half of all
companies in Japan are Black companies.

12\. Companies often have "Nomikai" (drinking parties). They are not mandatory
per se, but like everything in Japan, social pressure is often used to force
people to attend. This is considered a work function even though no actual
work takes place.

13\. Most employees in Japan are part of "sales". This doesn't imply selling a
product, rather it means wining and dining to the customer (Business to
Business). This includes things like taking the customer on dinners, karaoke,
golf, etc all "on the house". Failure to do this mean strain on the customer
relationship. Strain on the relationship implies loss of business.

14\. There's a "right" way of doing everything. Japan is a society that values
process and manners. For example when you, a Japanese national, go on an
interview, and must enter an interview room, you first knock exactly 3 times,
yell "excuse me", wait for an invitation, open the door, yell again "pardon
me", then enter the room, promptly close the door, wait to be invited again to
take a seat, then proceed to take the seat. Failure to do this correctly
exactly as listed looks bad.

15\. Japanese (the language) continues to require honorific/humble language
_in addition_ to polite language. In school, children must address students
senior to themselves using _polite_ language. In the workplace, employees must
be able to address superiors and customers using honorific/humble language (a
step above polite language, imagine talking to a king in the old days with
English). Distant acquaintances and strangers must also be addressed with at a
minimum polite language. Casual language is reserved for friends and family
only. To be fair, this isn't just unique to Japan but is common in many East-
Asian and nearby cultures.

16\. If you want to avoid this hellish landscape and remain in Japan and still
be respected, you do have one and only one option. Do well on your college
entrance exams in high school, get into the top tier schools, then apply to
the top companies and highly desired positions. This will spare you of regular
mandatory overtime during your adult life, allow you to have better than
average salary, and still be highly respected in society despite only working
may an average 10 hours a weekday. Doing something else (like going abroad) is
not seen as the "normal" way. Not being normal is not good. The only
exceptions are English teachers, translators, and obviously affluent families
(that would have been fine anyway). University students can also get away with
study abroad, assuming they don't go more than a year and join the rest of
their peers in the same job hunting style at the end of it. But these students
may have already accepted that they are unlikely to land a good job so study
abroad is seen as a way to delay the inevitable.

17\. More and more Japanese are slowly just beginning to say "fuck it". This
is leading to interesting subcultures. For example the term called "freeters"
(shortening of English free-timers) is a culture of young Japanese that refuse
to work standard salary jobs and instead work multiple part time jobs often
taking breaks in employment to enjoy free time. More 20s and 30s Japanese are
taking advantage of working holiday visa arrangements with other countries as
an attempt to expatriate. More and more Japanese are negotiating or purposely
deciding to only take jobs where they are allowed a fixed number of hours
(often the cost is a reduction in pay or a not so great work assignment). But
these groups are still very much the minority and there are definite
sacrifices these people have made (or they're just mentally crazy) in the eyes
of the typical Japanese.

------
bro-stick
Work-life "balance" isn't... there's a finite budget of seconds that goes to
this or that; so it's how you spend them, how impactful are their results...
whether it's enjoyed / "success" by whatever is your interpretation of it's
meaning. That said, maybe some people find some reward while simultaneously
killing themselves to fit in like Walmart executives (whom jockey to arrive
earliest) and newbie startup founders (hopefully they keep enough equity and
retain/sustain passion to ship something people love and don't shut/meltdown
when they succeed out of fear of the unknown) ... the two former conditions
aren't necc. mutex. (It's only lack of self-awareness anticipating likely
outcomes that would be a failure.)

It's not how early one comes in or late, how may hours, ... these are all
"process people" behaviors that aren't focused on the content impact of their
effort.

Finally, inspired by Sir Branson's take on work-life... it's the same thing,
act in a globally-consistent manner. Much easier than the insecure, naïve
person trying to wear "boss" or "worker" costumes... it's value-subtract
business theater.

I could just be old or completely full of shit, either is fine.

