
GNOME 3 Released - sciurus
http://gnome3.org/
======
iamcalledrob
Gnome really needs help with their typography (and design in general).

Gradients, docks and shiny icons do not make a well designed product.

It's clear to see it suffers from the curse of open source software – design
by committee, and the featuritis that results from that. There's often
"flashy" chrome in OSS, but no solid interactions behind to back it up.

It's equally important what you choose to leave out from your product, as what
you include. It seems Gnome has included the kitchen sink.

~~~
dman
Believe me - in the open source world Gnome is the one that leans towards
minimalism.

~~~
zyfo
Minimalism in what sense?

~~~
dman
UI fading into the background. Working things around so that there are fewer
User preferences. Default desktop themes which are sober and not overly jazzy.

~~~
mtogo
How? Compared to LXDE (for example), GNOME seems cluttered and slow to me. Not
at all minimalist.

------
demetris
The webfont used (Cantarell) does not look good in Windows. The texts are
almost unreadable: <http://op111.net/u/misc/20110407-win7-fx4-gnome.org.png> —
(It looks fine on Linux.)

Cantarell, by the way, is also the UI font of Gnome Shell. Not a bad UI font,
I think, but it has a narrow glyph range (about 400) and only includes Latin.

Moving to the larger picture, my impression from the Gnome Shell desktop up to
now is that it is an interesting experiment, trying to rethink as it does a
lot of stuff that we have grown to take for granted in desktop environments.
But it is not necessarily a good desktop experience. Up to now (I have used it
for about 40 hours in total) I find it tiring and distracting, rather than
distraction-free. Switching between app windows, e.g., is not a pleasant
experience for me, with all the action I see on the screen and that I have to
take myself each time I want to switch. (Alt-tabbing avoids all that, but I
don’t always switch windows with Alt+Tab.) Another thing that does not help
me, and that I find strange as an design decision, is the position of the
clock right in the middle of the topbar. It causes me stress; I feel like time
is hunting me.

In general, Gnome Shell seems to me to offer an experience more tuned to small
rather than large screens. In a 2560*1600 screen, say, and if you prefer using
the mouse rather than the keyboard, the distances you have to travel are
ridiculous.

I expect the whole thing to improve in the next couple of years or so, but I
am curious to see how much it can improve given its basic design principles.

~~~
jrockway
UIs like this are not for power users. They use xmonad or awesome or dwm or
ratpoison or ...

This is for someone who turns on their computer, does some work, and then
stops using their computer. They do not want to bother themselves with a lot
of learning. Simple actions that can be easily learned and improve speed (like
keyboard shortcuts) are in reach. But more "confusing" concepts like virtual
desktops without visual cues are not what they go for, even though pressing
M-1 is much faster than moving your mouse to some picture of window.

The idea is "how can we make computing accessible to the average person", not
"how can we make demetris not feel stress on his 2560x1600 screen". Once you
reach a certain level of interest in optimizing everything, you have to use
tools to build your own desktop environment, because you are a unique flower,
and only you can decide what you want. You've reached this point, so GNOME is
not for you.

~~~
hollerith
>This is for someone who turns on their computer, does some work, and then
stops using their computer. They do not want to bother themselves with a lot
of learning.

>Once you reach a certain level of interest in optimizing everything, you have
to use tools to build your own desktop environment, because you are a unique
flower

Or the power user can switch to OS X, which requires less 'optimizing' to get
it into a comfortable state than any of the Linux environments (e.g., Gnome 2,
dwm and ratpoison) I have tried do.

I do not want a set of tools with which I can build my own desktop. I want a
desktop that is usable without major customization or tinkering although I do
realize that any desktop warrants some customization and administration if it
will be heavily used.

ADDED. I ran Linux for 13 years, and command-line Gnu tools and Emacs on
proprietary Unix for 5 years before that, and I would like to continue
supporting free software if I can do so without undue sacrifice.

Maybe I am just more sensitive to matters of design and aesthetics than most
Linux users are, but I started using OS X last year. It's not perfect, but I
like it better than I like the Gnome 2 on Linux I used before that even though
I have put less effort (but still much effort, maybe more that is rational)
into tweaking and customizing OS X than I have Gnome 2.

~~~
rufugee
As someone who has used both systems at length and who has commented on the
subject before, I'll simply tell you that your opinion is obviously very
subjective. I find the out-of-box Ubuntu experience to be far surperior to the
OS X one, and to get OS X to even approach the level of efficiency I get from
Ubuntu/Gnome/Compiz I end up investing well over $100 in utilities. Not that I
mind supporting the developers, but it is what it is. I don't want to get into
a features pissing match, but I can point specifics when I have more time to
write. OS X is fine if it fits your view of the world or if you're willing to
adapt your world view to fit it, but Ubuntu gives you a very solid experience
out of the gate which you can mold to your heart's desire.

~~~
bcrescimanno
I think you've got some fair points here; but let's not forget that (at least
as of a while back, I can't speak for newer releases) Ubuntu would not have
support for even basic mp3 playback without downloading support for it. I
understand the "free software" reasons for such restrictions--but I think it's
difficult to justify the statement of Ubuntu having an "far superior out-of-
box experience" when difficulties such as this are considered.

...and let's not even get into video drivers. :P

~~~
rufugee
Actually, mp3 support is a checkbox during the install process now, so this is
a non-issue.

Video drivers have been just fine for me for the past six years or so, but
perhaps that's because I always buy nvidia cards that are well supported.

The only place OS X has a leg up on Linux IMHO is video codec support, and you
can't really blame the open source developers for this one.

I keep waiting for a hardware manufacturer to issue 3 or 4 different machines
and make Linux work very well on them, akin to what Apple does with OS X. Most
of the issues I see people have with Linux is due to the immense variability
in hardware combinations. Eliminating this variability would make it pretty
easy for a company to provide a seamless desktop experience to users.

~~~
bcrescimanno
Didn't know that about mp3 support; that's really good to hear. What about
installing proprietary video drivers? Can that be done at install time too?
Has maintaining up-to-date versions of these drivers become easier?

I admit ignorance--the last time I used Ubuntu regularly on the desktop was
just before my first mac arrived in late 2006. I've toyed with it since then;
but never gone through installation and configuration.

~~~
rufugee
I'm not sure if it can be done at install time, but it's very easy after
you're booted up. Almost all cards I've tried are supported by the basic
drivers, and enabling third-party driver support (to get nvidia drivers, etc
straight from the commercial source) is as simple as
System->Administration->Additional Drivers. Click activate and you're good to
go.

------
riffraff
I really like gnome3, but I'ts kind of sad to realize the main video on the
frontpage (for a wonderful new desktop experience) shows only two desktop
applications: gedit editing an html file, and firefox with firebug to fix that
same code. And a fake IM session with a _loremipsum_ in it.

I understand the gnome desktop may not have many shiny artisty apps as OSX,
but this feels a tad too nerdy.

~~~
hartror
You do realise where you are posting right?

~~~
squidsoup
We're not representative of the linux userbase anymore - increasingly it is
used by students, home users and office workers that aren't necessarily
technical. That's the demographic they should be appealing to and they're more
interested in social and media related apps.

~~~
threepointone
>We're not representative of the linux userbase anymore.

> increasingly it is used by students, home users and office workers that
> aren't necessarily technical.

citations, please. it's one thing where the developers of gnome/linux WANT it
to be used by this demographic, it's another to claim that it's happening (and
to claim that HN users don't use it anymore).

~~~
Lennie
I just know, statcounter claims Linux has 1% worldwide desktop website-
visitors and Wikipedia has statistics that say: 2% of the Wikipedia visitors
is a Linux-desktop user. Half of that is an Ubuntu user.

All mobile (non-desktop) users combined statcounter claims is also around 1%

------
naner
Ryan Paul's review on Ars might be more useful:

[http://arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2011/04/ars-
revie...](http://arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2011/04/ars-reviews-
gnome-30-a-shiny-new-ornament-for-your-linux-lawn.ars)

------
MatthewPhillips
Love it! Can't wait to use it. I wonder what the impact is going to be now
that Ubuntu is doing it's own UI thing. That's the vast majority of Linux
users; so who becomes the premiere Gnome 3 distribution? I was hoping to get a
System76 as my next desktop but now I'm not sure; depends if Gnome3 is
included in Ubuntu's repos going forward.

~~~
skymt
Fedora 15 is most likely to be the Gnome 3 showcase. Its release on May 24 is
nicely timed to allow them enough time to integrate Gnome Shell. As a desktop
distro it's second in popularity only to Ubuntu, which makes it the most
popular distro to choose Gnome Shell as its default UI.

But all this shouldn't affect your hardware purchases. A System76 machine
should run Fedora just as well as it does Ubuntu.

------
ChuckMcM
Did anyone else find putting these two features next to each other
unfortunate:

* Messaging built-in

Communication is an important part of the modern desktop, but it's a hassle
when you have to switch windows to reply to a message.

* GNOME 3 is designed to reduce distraction and interruption and to put you in control.

Our new notifications system subtly presents messages and will save them until
you are ready for them,...

------
lallysingh
They really should concatenate some of those videos together. Each one
individually is a little underwhelming.

~~~
antidaily
at the very least, get rid of the personal intros and "one of the hundreds"
bit.

~~~
kleiba
Why?

~~~
antidaily
gets old after the 3rd time.

------
sigzero
"Window bars don't offer any minimise/maximise window controls; however, this
functionality is still available by right-clicking on a window's top bar.
GNOME and GTK+ development veteran Owen Taylor explained the reasons for
removing the controls in a comprehensive email. In this email, the developer
indicates that workspaces may make it unnecessary to minimise windows."

I don't think I like that one. I minimize all the time even with workspaces.
To relegate to a right click is just going to confuse the novice end user.

------
beck5
Why are the videos on the site so small, make it big and show off what you
have made!

You can see them here on youtube:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRHAio98n-g>
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRHAio98n-g&feature=relmf...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRHAio98n-g&feature=relmfu)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip9Bgjaspjs&feature=relmf...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip9Bgjaspjs&feature=relmfu)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lepXx1kDelo&feature=relmf...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lepXx1kDelo&feature=relmfu)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSuRy7TRHPc&feature=relmf...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSuRy7TRHPc&feature=relmfu)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxOQj5eBRCY&feature=relat...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxOQj5eBRCY&feature=related)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4fhsgZbgKk&feature=relat...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4fhsgZbgKk&feature=related)

------
rwmj
It seems no one here has actually tried using GNOME 3 for any period of time.
I gave it a couple of days and switched over to XFCE. I found it incredibly
annoying as a developer desktop (perhaps a minority user these days?). It's
very hard to switch between applications, virtual desktops are basically
broken, you can't have shortcuts for launching apps/programs, no focus-
follows-mouse, and the GNOME developers don't give a damn.

~~~
TillE
If developers are a minority of Linux users, surely it's still a large
minority. Sadly, KDE3 was the last desktop I actually enjoyed using. KDE4 is
still (still!) broken and useless and ugly.

~~~
sigzero
What KDE are you using? The current version is miles away from the initial 4
release. I don't think it is hardly broken, useless and ugly.

------
deadcyclo
I don't use GNOME because I find it way to heavy and bloated (I run X and the
stumpwm manually). It would however be very interesting to know how early
adapters find GNOME 3 compared to previous GNOME versions in terms of bloat
and speed.

I also understand that GNOME 3 can be used very keyboard driven. AAAnybodywo
swears to the keyboard like me have any opinions?

------
Kudos
Their new site is gorgeous

------
_frog
Does anyone else find the tagline "Made of Easy" to be a bit silly and poorly
thought out?

~~~
DrJokepu
It's playful, it clearly and strongly communicates a single underlying
concept. I think it's good.

~~~
_frog
It's just such a grammatically poor phrase and it gives the impression that
the entire project lacks polish and thoughtful design.

~~~
epochwolf
So it matches what some people in this thread think of the project so far?

------
mishmash
gnome3.org is down for me, but <http://www.gnome.org/gnome-3/> works.

edit: and the torrent to the openSUSE with "optional" GNOME3 is:
<http://software.opensuse.org/114/en>

------
indrora
Wow. Gnome 3 looks worse than Gnome 2 did. I say that with love and kindness
in my heart though, as I'm a hardcore openbox user. openbox+tint2+nitrogen.

(edit: Okay, Gnome3 and E17 are "Almost" looking alike: They're shiney and
don't do much more than that.)

------
hendi_
I couldn't find an obvious link on the gnome(3).org sites, but there are
detailed release notes:

<http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.0/>

------
sciurus
The press release is at
[http://www.gnome.org/press/releases/2011-04-gnome-3.0-releas...](http://www.gnome.org/press/releases/2011-04-gnome-3.0-released.html)

~~~
bdhe
The link is broken. This is the working link:
[http://www.gnome.org/press/2011/04/gnome-3-0-released-
better...](http://www.gnome.org/press/2011/04/gnome-3-0-released-better-for-
users-developers-3/)

~~~
sciurus
Thanks for catching that! It looks like they launched a new design for
<http://www.gnome.org/> in conjunction with the release. That must have
altered the URL for the press release they had published earlier in the day.

~~~
lucasr
We'll be setting up redirects for the old press releases to the new website
soon. We just had so many things to sort out today for the release that these
small things end up slipping out. Cheers!

~~~
watmough
Will Gnome 3 still be in Ubuntu?

I'm unclear on how the changes relating to the desktop will actually change
the experience.

Congratulations to the Gnome team though! It does look great.

~~~
lucasr
Have a look at jdub's comment on the item about Ars Technical review of GNOME
3. He summarizes pretty well what will happen (or not happen) in Ubuntu with
regards to GNOME 3:

    
    
      http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2419435

------
augustl
Seems like gettimg started is easy too, at least on Arch Linux.

<https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GNOME_3>

------
alanh
Looks quite heavily OS X inspired, with Windows 7’s window arrangement
feature.

In theory, that should make for a great desktop environment.

------
dermatthias
gnome3.org seems to be unaccessible right now. Any news on a official (as in
official from the GNOME people, not Canonical) repo / .deb for Ubuntu 10.10?

I'm using Awesome WM since a about a year and I'm really happy with it, but it
looks kinda good and I want to give it a shot.

~~~
jasonlotito
The URL is fine for me. Maybe it's just an issue from your location.

------
TuxPirate
Does anyone have instructions on how to build this beast?

~~~
hendi_
We have a tool called "jhbuild" that keeps track of all the dependencies and
stuff. In short, just get jhbuild from git.gnome.org, build it and do a
"jhbuild bootstreap && jhbuild build".

More complete instruction can be found in the wiki:
<https://live.gnome.org/Smoketesting>

If you want to just check out gnome-shell without the other Gnome 3 stuff, you
can find instructions on <http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell>

~~~
lucasr
If you want to get started with Jhbuild, you probably want to have a look at
the official manual:

    
    
      http://developer.gnome.org/jhbuild/stable/

------
RandyHelzerman
Who cares about gnome? I mean really. To first, second, and third order
approximations, nobody will ever use it. The ipad2 sold over 2 million units
the first month out. The next billion users of the internet will interact with
it over their cell phone. Might as well publish an article about somebody who
is making a nice set of switches for the front panel of a pdp-11 using
mahogany wood or something.

~~~
ambiguity
At least a third of the people on Hacker News.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2303726>.

