

Kickstarter suspends project 10 hours from successful funding  - prbuckley
http://vintedgoods.com/pr

======
malenm
A little Googling finds the founders - Jason Sun [1] and Ben Yi [2] - both
worked at KILLSPENCER [3] before starting Vinted Goods [4]. While it's true
that both sites have a top nav, I couldn't find any pics of someone operating
a sewing machine on either site. Either way, the products seem similar, but
what would you expect from a mentor/protege relationship?

[1] <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jason-sun/20/84a/124>

[2] <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/benjamin-yi/16/662/662>

[3] <http://killspencer.com/>

[4] <http://vintedgoods.com/>

Edit: The owner of KILLSPENCER, Spencer Nikosey [5] has a few interesting
interview nuggets [6][7]:

WHAT ARE YOU MOST PROUD OF? I'm most proud of the upcoming products and
relationships I've built with the members of our SPECIAL PROJECTS INNOVATION
TEAM. (This is the team Jason and Ben were on.)

WHO DO YOU BOUNCE IDEAS OFF AND/OR GET INSPIRED BY? I have a small group of
mentors. These people are amazing at what they do. I give them products and
they use them, and give me feedback on how to improve the designs,
construction, etc. I'm so lucky to have such amazing people interested in
supporting the vision.

TAKE US BRIEFLY THROUGH YOUR PROFESSIONAL BACKGROUND. WHERE HAVE YOU WORKED
BEFORE LAUNCHING YOUR OWN COMPANY? I launched my business straight out of
school. While in school, I had the opportunity to intern for some great
people. Scott Robertson (Design Studio Press) is where I got my first work
experience. I spent so much time observing and picking his mind on the
business of design and watched him build his business from the start.

[5] <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/spencer-nikosey/12/5a6/866>

[6] [http://swipelife.com/2009/04/15/the-newcomer-an-intervew-
wit...](http://swipelife.com/2009/04/15/the-newcomer-an-intervew-with-spencer-
nikosey-of-killspencer-2/)

[7] [http://www.carryology.com/2012/04/12/interviews-spencer-
niko...](http://www.carryology.com/2012/04/12/interviews-spencer-nikosey/)

Edit 2: Google Cache of the Kickstarter campaign page:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jQYA_YU...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jQYA_YUlWTYJ:www.kickstarter.com/projects/446805249/vinted-
bags-and-leather-goods-essentials-for-explo+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

~~~
efuquen
"Either way, the products seem similar, but what would you expect from a
mentor/protege relationship?"

Seem similar in the sense that they are both selling bags? Looking at the
products they both look to have completely different designs and styles, I
don't see how they seem similar.

------
ChuckMcM
tl;dr - Person who mentored these guys didn't realize they were going to
compete, takes legal action, Kickstarter complies.

Since Kickstarter is walking into the same land mines that eBay did, albeit
with a slightly different flavor, it will be interesting to see how this plays
out. The Vinted Goods folks can show pretty clear economic harm from the
action, the mentor clearly thinks there is some sort of trademark, trade
dress, and/or copyright violation. The story reads like a DMCA takedown
although Vinted didn't provide details or a copy of the DMCA filing that they
must have received (they mention a counter claim).

So what happens if you decide to make a Kickstarter Movie about a couple of
anthropomorphized robots who end up on a dessert planet only to discover one
of the inhabitants is destined to overthrow a totalitarian dictator? Hollywood
loves to throw those lawsuits around.

~~~
ThaddeusQuay2
"So what happens if you decide to make a Kickstarter Movie about a couple of
anthropomorphized robots who end up on a dessert planet only to discover one
of the inhabitants is destined to overthrow a totalitarian dictator?"

That depends. Does the plot involve one of the robots taking a bite out of the
dessert planet?

~~~
ChuckMcM
lol, gotta love spelling correctors. Ya know I did see one where the princess
had a couple of sticky buns on the side of her head. So its entirely possible
:-)

[1] <http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkerspace/2828387761/>

~~~
scoot
> gotta love spelling correctors

Even one that doesn't have "desert" in its dictionary?

Why can't the GP poster make an honest mistake, without others feeling the
need to make excuses for them?

~~~
randallsquared
"Others"? It was the GP who said what you quote. :)

------
rosser
IANAL, but if the "mentor" is acting in as bad of faith as it appears, there
may be grounds for a counter-claim of "tortious interference."

~~~
bicknergseng
Great legal term. Makes me think of a tortoise chewing on ethernet cables or
something.

~~~
001sky
Actually, a torte is a rich, usually multilayered, cake that is filled with
buttercreams, mousses, jams.[1]

So, don't you interfere....=D

_____________

[1] Wikipedia: <http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torte> Not to be confused
with tart or tort. [FYI tortious interference, less ceremoniously, alludes to
'tort', a decidely less delicious variation of the word.]

------
sixQuarks
It does feel like something fishy is going on, because we're only getting one
side of the story. Regardless, VintedGoods is now getting a ton of free
publicity.

~~~
tjic
> It does feel like something fishy is going on

I'd really like to see the letter.

Even if names and a few other bits are redacted, it would let me tell the
difference between:

a) I've got a logo up top, they've got a logo up top [ clearly craziness ]

and

b) I was producing the same three designs two years ago. These kids stole my
designs, made the handles 1mm narrower, and are producing the exact same
objects that I worked for years to perfect.

Big difference.

------
matthuggins
It feels like there's got to be more to this story than is actually included
in this post with regards to the mentor suddenly opposing the startup.

~~~
citricsquid
I agree:

> He laid claims to a number of our designs such as our website utilizing a
> top navigation bar, our photo of the designer operating a sewing machine,
> etc.

> In short, the claims are as outlandish as we perceived

If the claims are so ridiculous why haven't they posted the claim? Why are we
supposed to trust what they have to say?

Also this line reads very curiously:

> the mentor gave them words of blessing for future success.

it's as if they're trying to say "he said it was okay to take the work we did
there and use it in the future"? I don't get that sentence.

Something about the way this is written _feels_ weird.

~~~
goatforce5
"Thanks for all your help help, Mentor. We'll be off!"

"Sure thing kids, go crazy. Do whatever you want! Good luck! You'll need it!"

[Kids post to kickstarter and get tons of funding. Mentor decides that maybe
he wants some of that action.]

How much funding had been pledged before Kickstarter pulled the plug?

~~~
rprasad
Based on the conflicting statements the interns wrote, this is how I would put
it:

"Thanks for all your help help, Mentor. We'll be off! [And we're taking your
designs with us!]"

"Sure thing kids, go crazy. Do whatever you want! [I don't know that you're
taking any of my designs to create competing products.] Good luck! You'll need
it [because you don't have any designs and it will take you a while to come up
with good ones]!"

Kids post to kickstarter using their mentor's proprietary designs, and get
tons of funding to make products based on their mentor's designs.

Mentor sees them stealing the designs he spent months/years working on and
sues.

~~~
camiller
A admittedly cursory look at both websites doesn't show any obvious copying
(unless there is some sort if internal structural magic you can't see in
pictures). Besides, the article only mentioned things like the website
navigation and promo pictures. Not product infringement. Although as others
have mentioned, we are only getting one side of the story.

------
misener
It's worth noting that their campaign page has been reduced to a simple
"Sorry, this project is no longer available" message.

This, _despite_ Kickstarter's claim that projects are kept on their site
forever. Their FAQ states that "Projects are not closed or taken down, they
remain on site for reference and transparency.

I blogged more about this here:

[http://misener.org/despite-claiming-otherwise-kickstarter-
qu...](http://misener.org/despite-claiming-otherwise-kickstarter-quietly-
removes-projects/)

------
dwwoelfel
If anyone is curious about what they raised, here's a graph I made:

[http://canhekick.it/projects/446805249/vinted-bags-and-
leath...](http://canhekick.it/projects/446805249/vinted-bags-and-leather-
goods-essentials-for-explo)

There's a competing site that has more information, but my graph is much
nicer:

[http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/446805249/vinted-bags-
and-l...](http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/446805249/vinted-bags-and-leather-
goods-essentials-for-explo)

~~~
sillysaurus
Your graph _is_ nicer! Out of curiosity, how do you make graphs like that?

~~~
dwwoelfel
Thanks! It's an SVG image that is built with C2[1], a ClojureScript library
that provides some handy tools for working with svg.

After the image is done rendering, there is a callback that draws a hidden
tooltip next to each of the points. The callback also puts all of the points
into a kd-tree for efficient nearest neighbor searches. When a mouse hovers
over the graph, the point nearest the mouse tells its tooltip to display
itself.

Other people have made really excellent graphs using d3.js. Check out their
examples if you want to be impressed:
<https://github.com/mbostock/d3/wiki/Gallery>

I've also seen a lot of people using HighCharts. You can probably get these
out a lot faster than building one using a library like d3 or C2. You'll also
get support for browsers that don't render svg for free. Here's a good
example: <https://coinbase.com/charts>

[1] <https://github.com/lynaghk/c2>

~~~
eric_bullington
It's true that it's a lot quicker to get started with HighCharts than d3, but
you're left with almost infinitely less power. Plus, a high-level API for d3
now exists called nvd3[1], which is more on the level of abstraction of a
visualization framework like HighCharts (also, unlike HighCharts, it's free
and open source under the Apache license).

But if you're interested learning a visualization framework that gives you the
power to make literally any kind of data visualization you could imagine, and
you feel at home doing intermediate to advanced programming in JavaScript and
and are familiar with the svg spec(or willing to learn it), then d3 is an
incredibly well-designed and flexible tool. It's one of only two software
projects I've used in the past few years that makes me want to rave and carry
on like this[2].

[1] <http://nvd3.com/> [2] <http://d3js.org>

------
tlb
The underlying problem here is that the legal system is 2 orders of magnitude
too slow. A court should decide such disputes, but they take months or years.
Kickstarter has to pull the trigger one way or the other in hours.

RFS: disrupt the legal system by offering 4-hour dispute resolution.

~~~
saraid216
I don't feel that it's too slow right now, mostly because I don't feel we've
built up enough case law and precedent to trust faster feedback. That puts us
in a painful transitionary period. Hopefully, it won't last too long.

~~~
tlb
The time it takes for case law to build up depends on the speed of the courts
(usually involving multiple appeals). If we had 4-hour justice, we could
probably have solid precedents in 4-days.

------
Tipzntrix
Tsk, it stings that the timing is so poor. It's almost malicious to pull the
rug in the eleventh hour like that. I agree that the story is pretty one-sided
here. The posts reeks of PC, sanitized writing which is to be expected,
considering they will be going to court soon. Motives are well hidden and the
overall tone of how each interaction between the Vinted and their mentors
sounds way too congenial.

~~~
colindoc84
It's certainly better to pull it before the money is distributed. It sucks but
the money going to the bank account of Vinted Goods is only going to make the
situation messier.

~~~
Tipzntrix
Right, I agree with that. I will clarify stating that the order should have
probably been done earlier rather than just before all the plans are in place.

------
scotty79
> It's hard to know how many people feel like they're shopping at a store when
> they're backing projects on Kickstarter.

I'm feeling more like dumping money in the toilet and thinking "Hey. Maybe
magic fairy will bring me some cool gifts next year in some vague relation to
this act of me dumping money in the toilet."

I keep my fingers crossed for Ouya and new Total Annihilation.

------
joxie
How can they still respect their "mentor" when he sued them and ruined their
entire Kickstarter project?

------
halcyondaze
If everything they have said is true, it's an unfortunate situation and seems
to be the result of the mentor saying, 'Fuck, why did I not take it to this
level?'

However this is only one side of the story and it definitely seems like there
might be more behind the scenes. Interested to see how this plays out and it
means interesting things for how Kickstarter handles issues like this.

Agree with ChuckMcM about how it reads like a DMCA takedown, but just with
much more serious consequences than the average DMCA.

------
jwuggles
Kickstarter should rather simply put projects on 'hold' and have a dispute
ticket of sorts similar to that of ebay for people to sort it out and figure
it out.

In the end of the day it has to be black and white however.. one or the
other... the question now is who that side will be? The kickstarter raiser or
an outside third party?

It is a great shame to see such a project go down like this and I hope
kickstarter is taking notice and not let something slip like this.

~~~
drhodes
How long does a dispute take to resolve? Is it fair to funders if their money
is held for 6 months while lawyers argue?

~~~
jwuggles
Thats true. It is.. a rather complicated situation. I suppose it has to go one
way or another especially with such a disruptive idea like kickstarter

------
rexreed
I don't understand why a company with such a fan base doesn't just add a
"Donate" widget to their page and directly solicit donations rather than go
through Kickstarter and give up 5-10%?

The power of Kickstarter is attracting fans you couldn't otherwise, but they
take a nice big chunk. I always wonder why companies with a great story and
fan base just don't solicit their fans directly instead of going through
Kickstarter -- am I missing something here?

~~~
aidenn0
And how will they take payments?

~~~
rexreed
Stripe? Paypal? Lots of options -- especially for a company that will be
selling a physical product -- they'll need to figure it out sooner than later.

------
VeejayRampay
I guess we're going to have to live in a world where there's a SEVERE shortage
of leather bags.

 _rolls eyes_

------
vampirechicken
Somebody you mentored looks like their going to be more successful then you
are. Sue them and get a settlement for part of their company. Would have been
easier to invest int he company instead of paying the lawyers, but that's not
the American way.

------
tzs
Any interest I might have had in their problem was lost when I could not read
their complaint. The lines are too wide for the screen on my mobile device,
and they are blocking resizing so I can not shrink it to fit.

~~~
andrewljohnson
My iPhone has a reader button in the browser that makes the page nice readable
plain text with proper margins.

------
erikb
The headline is misleading. It's not really Kickstarters fault. If they get
legal threats concerning one of the people using their site it's quite normal
to take it down, at least until everything is settled.

~~~
alanctgardner2
It might be in their TOS, but they definitely aren't obligated to stop
supporting these guys because of legal action. In fact, without a formal
process in place they open themselves up to more risk by making judgement
calls about whose funding to pull. I'd like to see these guys take Kickstarter
to court, if only to get a better definition of KS' legal role and
responsibilities

------
anigbrowl
Considering how many unemployed lawyers there are these days, I don't know why
any startup wouldn't automatically bring in an attorney as part of the
founding team; such a person may not be able to handle all the legal
challenges a startup faces, but they'll be able to spot them coming and will
know when and how to engage outside counsel. At least in the US, we live in a
very legalistic and litigous society: law is not something that gets in the
way, it's our society's operating system and a company's legal officer works
to ensure the business operates smoothly in that environment, just like the
CIO works to keep the business accessible and operable via the internet.

~~~
alanctgardner2
At least for engineers, part of your professional obligation is not to dilute
the value of your services by offering them for free. The equation is
obviously a bit different for lawyers, who may work pro bono (only in criminal
cases, perhaps?). My point being, it is probably against their professional
code to be on retainer for a price far below market value.

~~~
csense
> professional obligation is not to dilute the value of your services by
> offering them for free.

So all of the volunteers who work on open-source projects in their spare time
are in violation of their professional obligations?

Guys with the guts to quit their jobs and try to bootstrap a company totally
on spec are in violation of their professional obligations?

People who volunteer to provide free technical skills to schools, hospitals,
libraries and orphanages in desperately poor Third World countries are in
violation of their professional obligations?

Bloggers who write about cool programming ideas for people to read, for free,
are in violation of their professional obligations?

This "obligation" simply doesn't make sense.

And besides, the "market value" you cite only exists because buyers and
sellers of services are able to freely negotiate with each other to decide on
a price.

~~~
alanctgardner2
There is a definite obligation, as a licensed professional engineer, to
protect the reputation, and to an extent the scarcity, of engineering
knowledge as a resource. I know for sure that, as an architect, it is
unethical to do architecture work for friends, family, etc. for free. The
examples you gave are straw men, though, except open source.

\- Open Source is a really interesting problem, and I'm not involved in that
community very much. I suspect a licensed engineer would be averse to writing
code for an OS project in their spare time, if it wasn't part of their job.

\- Quitting your job and working for yourself isn't the same as offering your
services to a third party for free / cheap. If a lawyer was actually an equity
partner in a firm, they could set their own salary, certainly it could be less
than usual. This is different than what I saw as a contracting/retainer
relationship where the lawyer is an independent third-party providing services
because they have some free time. Of course, there is probably a lot of red
tape involved in creating an in-hour legal department versus contracting this
out.

\- Providing services to charity, inarguably, provides a net benefit to the
profession. Most professional organizations allow for this, provided you're
acting in an advisory role. Arguably, actually getting involved in litigation
is no longer 'advisory'.

\- Writing about cool things and implementing them are two different ideas.
Some lawyers provide commentary as a hobby, but this is not interchangeable
with the actual service they provide. As a software engineer, writing about a
concept isn't the same as implementing that concept for a client.

Remember, this only applies to licensed engineers who belong to a self-
regulating professional organization. Just because your job title has
'Engineer' in it, if you didn't take an oath, you aren't really an Engineer.

~~~
csense
Actually I'm kind of glad the software industry doesn't fall into this
category. I don't want a "professional organization" telling me what I can or
can't charge for my work!

~~~
alanctgardner2
You're mistaken, there are people in the industry who are engineers. In some
lines of work (architecture, law) membership in a professional organization is
required. But if you went to school in an accredited program (most university
Software Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, etc.), you
can become a professional engineer. It's required to join the IEEE, in fact.
The point of the professional organization is to hold it's members to a high
standard; part of this is not offering 'bargain basement' services. The reason
you don't see a lot of discount medical practitioners and lawyers is arguably
because their organization would disbar them. Likewise, hiring a consulting
software engineer who is a P. Eng. brings the benefit that if they act
unethically, they can lose their certification.

------
wissler
The "mentor" here is risking destroying himself and his business over this
because Vinted has their own unique look and customers are generally not going
to approve of his actions.

