
Technical = Coder. Non-Technical = Non-Coder. - jaf12duke
http://42floors.com/blog/posts/technical-coder-non-technical-non-coder
======
naner
_We get 17 seconds into your new startup pitch when I ask you if you're
technical and you say yes._

 _A bunch of startup marketing mumbo-jumbo later and you tell me you're
looking for a coder to help you._

 _WTF?! You said you were technical?!_

Say what you mean. Ask if they are a programmer.

~~~
skrebbel
Word. Also, I know plenty mechanical engineers who'd be somewhat offended by
the article title. Tunnel vision, anyone?

~~~
krschultz
True to some extent. I'm a mechanical engineer and every engineering I know
would answer 'yes' when asked if they were technical. I'd be shocked if anyone
out there defined 'non-technical' in such a broad way that an engineer
wouldn't count just because they were laying out a circuit board or designing
a biomedical device instead of writing Ruby on Rails code..

~~~
cshum
What I think: technical = can build stuff i.e. software <=> coder, hardware
<=> electrical engineer, physical product <=> mechanical engineer and so on...

~~~
Iv
Bah... Hackernews is mainly about web apps and mobile apps. Sadly.

------
delinka
The first (only?) comment on the blog hits on an important point: I know lots
of technical people who don't code. These people build networks, configure
racks of equipment, and generally keep data centers running smoothly ... and
couldn't code their way out of a SIGTRAP. (Contrary to this, I've met plenty
of non-technical people who "repair" PCs and know how to click the UI of the
latest malware removal tool.)

I understand that the target audience is the MBA who thinks that since he
bought a laptop last week, he's now "technical," but it's an important
distinction when your story is read by a bunch of technical geeks.

<rant>Proofread your blog posts. This is why your blogging software allows you
to create drafts - dump your rage into the editor and save the draft. Come
back later after you've cooled down and fix your grammatical and spelling
errors. Also, don't forget to pay some attention to organization.</rant>

~~~
mjn
It makes even less sense in other areas of engineering. I'm a computer
scientist and can code, but it would be absurd for me to claim that, if I
collaborate with a chemical engineer or mathematician who can't code, that
person isn't "technical". It's getting increasingly useful to know how to do
at least basic programming all across the sciences and engineering, but there
are lots of other technical skills as well, mathematical skill being a big
one. Even at tech companies, a statistics wizard who can write only basic code
(say, simple R scripts) but knows the underlying theory and practice very
deeply would certainly be a "technical" employee, for reasons other than their
rudimentary coding ability.

------
tatsuke95
> _"You can't build stuff. You can't take an idea in your head and produce a
> product that works."_

Yes. You certainly can.

Being able to "build" something doesn't mean writing all the code, performing
all the welds or assembling all the parts. James Cameron didn't build his
submarine that set the record for deepest dive, but he _most definitely_ took
an idea from his head and turned it into a product that _works_. He did so by
assembling a team around him to accomplish his goals.

Why are programmers so set on believing that there is nothing near as
important as "writing code" in a business? Being able to turn idea into
product involves a hell of a lot more than writing the code. Sorry to tell
you, lots of people can code.

~~~
zedshaw
Take all the activities required to build some kind of software. Let's just
say, a little website. And let's say you need marketing, sales, design,
product management, and coding.

Now, start removing everything and see if you can still build something.
Remove marketing? Yep, I can still build it. Sales? Yep. Design? Yep. Product
Management? Yep.

Coding? Nope. Can't even build it if you don't have that. The other stuff is
definitely important, and it definitely makes or breaks successful businesses,
but none of it is essential. Coding is a hard requirement when you want to
make software, and if you don't have it, or understand it, then all the other
stuff is kind of pointless.

The stupid thing is it's not that hard to learn the basics. It just seems
"idea guys" want to be lazy and not learn the essential element of the
business they want to enter.

~~~
kylebrown
Its also a form of laziness when someone (whether a coder or non-coder)
presupposes that some original software is the essential element of their
business idea. Barry Silbert had that realization in founding SecondMarket
(its in a talk of his on youtube). He was wasting a lot of time trying to get
others to build him some extravagant website when somebody told him to just
forget about the website, open up a spreadsheet and start making phone calls.
So that's what he did and SecondMarket was born.

Its probably similar to the way businesses sometimes expect new software to be
a magic bullet that will fix broken business practices.

~~~
zedshaw
Well that brings up the flip side of the situation. Out of the types of roles
you need to run a software business, what ones can you outsource? I can
outsource my initial design to a site like themeforest, accounting to an
accountant, marketing to a marketing company, sales can be outsourced to a
form on the site, and the coding can definitely be outsourced.

I've found the only thing that's very hard to outsource is product management
because you lose control over the product. Sales might be a close second if
your product needs direct sales, but then I'd ask why you need software in the
first place?

But, think about it. MBAs spend years learning all of the other aspects of
running a business. They learn the basics of marketing, sales, economics,
accounting, and management because that's part of the business. Why is it then
such a stretch that learning basic software skills is needed to run a software
business?

Especially when it is really not that hard to learn. I teach 11 year old kids,
30 year old rock stars, and 60 year old grandparents to do it. I'm sure a
smart MBA type could spend a few months learning at least that much.

~~~
jt2190
So you definitely need someone with 'hustle' to go find a market, and you
definitely need a coder to build the product. I'd argue that having the same
person do both of these things means that there is (a) a higher probability
that the solution can actually be implemented as software and (b) that the
software will actually work as expected by the customers. (Zed, I suspect that
the Product Management role you mentioned might encapsulate these skills.)

------
mitko
Mostly OT: as a somebody who programs computers I dont enjoy the word 'coder'.
For me personally it has the mental connotation of somebody who is just there
to 'code' it up, who is given a spec from above to implement, somebody who
doesn't need to have any creativity to do his part of the software assembly
line. I much prefer the titles 'programmer' or 'sw engineer' because they
corelate with problem solving and creativity. Those are two traits without
which a technical cofounder that's just a coder will probably be of less use.

~~~
jsavimbi
Agreed. Nothing worse than hearing a non-technical-business-resource-humanoid
mention that they'll just write up the specs and hand it to the coders.
Unfortunately, that's the world we live in.

~~~
zenogais
It's just lazy entrepreneurialism. Everyone wants to make lots of money
without having to really do the taxing lowly day-to-day work.

~~~
jsavimbi
Not in every case but most notably anyone working in the role of project
manager, an actor who I give the hook to as soon as I'm on a project.

------
adahm
Have to say, I feel like being a "non-coder" is becoming shorthand for calling
someone second class in this tech startup ecosphere. As someone with lots to
bring to the table, especially domain expertise, business acumen, marketing,
design, etc etc. I always feel a bit on the outside looking in. I have started
to learn to code but more so to become conversational with
hackers/programmers/coders. I'll never be that good though, I know that. I
might be able to get to the point where I can hack together a prototype or
speak to someone like a conversational Spanish speaker speaks to a native
Spanish speaker. But will that be good enough?

I feel like the point that needs to be made here is that EVERYONE has
something to bring to the table. Everyone is good at something and on a TEAM,
that's what matters. Sure a team of amazing coders can make something great,
but a great product does not a great business make. Sometimes, ie PayPal and
others, all coders create a hugely successful business. But Zuckerberg is not
a great entrepreneur because he's a great coder. He's a great entrepreneur who
happens to be able to code. So instead of worshipping at the alters of coders,
and I have TONS of respect for what you guys can do, we need to acknowledge
that a successful STARTUP is more than code. So much more. Its about
assembling the right team with the right combination of skills. Coding is one
of them sure, but to say its the only one and labeling someone who doesn't as
"non-technical" like its a bad thing, negates the notion that a business runs
on more than just what can be hacked together. If a car were just an engine,
we'd still be driving model-Ts. What makes something beautiful, what makes it
successful, what makes it sell for 1 billion dollars is the specific
combination of skills and how they work in chorus to solve a need better than
anyone else. And those skills are varied, complex, and come from a lot of
different areas.

------
davemel37
This post is highly reminiscent of a previous post...
[http://42floors.com/blog/posts/be-yourself-abnormal-
people-c...](http://42floors.com/blog/posts/be-yourself-abnormal-people-
create-abnormal-returns)

The recurring theme is..."Don't be a faker. Don't be a poser."

My two cents is that most of us feel like we got to where we are by "Paying
Our Dues" and resent others who seem to jump to the top without making the
sacrifices we made.

The real truth is...we all have stories playing in our heads of who we are,
and what we accomplished. It is very easy to look across the street and wonder
why you had to work so hard, and other seem to just have life handed to them
on a silver platter.

The reality is though, we have no idea what challenges they faced and
overcame, and more importantly they have no control of how we perceive them.

Seeing a programmer in a suit, upsets you cuz its fake, but it really upsets
you because you know it took a heck of a lot more than a suit to get funding.
Boy would it suck if he got funding just for wearing a suit.

Seeing a non-coder claim to be a technical founder must suck because you are a
real founder, who knows what it really takes, and you feel you have no right
to claim you are a technical founder.

The truth is, we can write whatever story we want about ourselves, and you can
choose to believe whatever stories you want to about others. None of it really
matters...

At the end of the game, "The Pawn and the King both go back in the same box."

I can really relate to how the author feels within other context, but I know
that the day I let go of those perspectives, was the day I grew my wings and
learn to fly. The day I realized I could be whoever i wanted to be. THe day I
realized that no one needs to die to make me king....

MOST IMPORTANTLY... to all you young ones starting out. The folks insisting
you need to pay your dues for years and years and one day you will reach the
top... Remember, those old folks are your competition, it is in their best
interest to keep you down. Sure, their experience and sacrifice counts for
something... but if you want to be a technical co-founder, by all means...
It's Your Life. Be Whoever You Want to Be.

------
brm
I find myself in an even stickier place. As a designer I work in HTML and CSS,
borrow and implement other people's javascript to make my interfaces do nice
things, and dance around in wordpress php, tumblr themeing, and the
superficial code of other content management systems. Beyond that I certainly
don't 'code'.

Sure I move around enough in ruby and python enough to make the pretty face
I've designed work with the app and I certainly don't consider myself
technical if asked, but I seem to be lightyears beyond the business or ideas
person on the building side of things.

More than a superficial designer, less than a front end developer is one of
the strangest places to be.

~~~
jsavimbi
Make a choice then: learn to code or focus on design.

I can help you. I make double as a designer as what I made as a front-end
developer and I'm also happier for it. The more focused you become on design
the less dependent you'll be on either the business side or the engineering
team. And you'll be more in-demand than either.

~~~
entangld
Any other tips in this regard?

~~~
jsavimbi
Yeah, become really good at what you do for work unless it's something you
really don't like doing.

------
brokentone
While this post is simplistic (we all know there are a lot of technical
posers) and the conclusion (found in the title) is wrong, there are a few good
points made along the way.

Technical does not have to equal coder, although you can flip it around (all
coders are technical) so it's a simple case of affirming the consequent.
Happens to a lot of people. There are other technical skills that are quite
valuable other than "coding" as noted here. I consider a passionate network
admin, DBA, or sysadmin just as (or more) valuable as a "coder"

This paragraph is good though: "You can't build stuff. You can't take an idea
in your head and produce a product that works. You haven't had things break on
you. You haven't spend hours looking for a mistyped space. You don't get in
the zone. You've never been on pager duty. You haven't spend 10 years learning
your craft. You're reliant on other people to make things for you."

It even applies to people who "know how to code" (which by definition are
"coders." It all comes down to passion.

I have no CS degree, certs, and haven't finished many programming books.
However, I've been one of the best techs at my last few gigs. Why? Because I'm
interested and passionate about this stuff. I go home at night with a problem,
figure it out in the shower, SSH in, and test it out. It's fun to me to fix
the problem, I don't want to wait till tomorrow.

I spent time in school breaking our school's intranet and housing electronic
lock system (successfully) which I showed to our IT folk and they fixed it.
Took a lot of time, but it was fun.

I sit at home (and work) reading source code, RFCs, man pages etc, while
others Google for the first response. They may be a little faster, but they'll
have to Google next time they hit that issue. I gained understanding, and I
won't forget that.

------
raverbashing
I see one exception to this rule, and it's something very specific.

If you're dealing with a very specific knowledge or domain and you're an
expert in that field, I guess you could be a "technical non-coder"

For example: healthcare/medical, economy, statistics, etc Some of those can
work their way around Matlab for example, but not create something on the web

------
fleitz
I've spent 10 years coding, and I'd be equally useless on a team building
CPUs. Similarly, I'd be equally useless on a team building a kernel.

A company of one isn't much use, the corporate form allows people to come
together to build more than they could on their own.

Who really cares if someone is or isn't 'technical'. One of the important
roles of a CEO is being the interface between capital and labour.

A good CEO with a decent grasp of technology and a little bit of money can put
together a team, they are far from useless. Everyone has a role to play, it's
extremely myopic to think someone can't build a company simply because they
don't code.

I doubt Steve Jobs had any idea how to program an iPhone and I doubt much of
his code had anything to do with the rise of Apple once he retook the reigns
in the 90s.

------
dazbradbury
>You can't build stuff. You can't take an idea in your head and produce a
product that works.

>You haven't spend 10 years learning your craft. You're reliant on other
people to make things for you.

I don't think that has been a problem for lots of people. Take Steve Jobs, as
far as I'm aware, he didn't write any code for Apple. What would his answer be
when asked, in relation to his company, "Are you technical"? I don't know, but
as the founder of a technology company, I imagine he would say yes. Or
something to that effect. He's pitching a tech product.

As many others have said, if you want to know if someone is a programmer, ask
them.

------
pgroves
The more painful part of the article is the subtext that a startup's "product"
is by definition something built in a few months with RoR or Django.

For all the talk of how much angel and V.C. money is available for young
companies, it's not going to do much if investors won't branch out into
ACTUALLY new product areas.

------
sontek
I think this misses the true hardship of non-technical founders. I'm a
programmer working with a non-technical cofounder and it isn't me vs her, I
don't think I'm putting in more than her because she does the pitches,
meetings, e-mails, finances, etc.

If you are a non-technical founder and you can prevent your technical founder
from doing anything non-technical... you are pulling your weight!

That being said, the problems I have with a non-techie is that she doesn't
understand the tech things:

1\. E-mail is not a todo list, we have a bug tracking system.

2\. Stop talking about "Your programmer friend said...", I understand you
don't know technology and want to verify what I say but how is not
understanding it from 2 people instead of 1 going to help?

3\. Open Source is important, so yes we will be committing to our github once
in awhile on company time, that is because we are using that project for the
company.

4\. Alpha/Beta is different than MVP. Just because something is ready to show
you doesn't mean its ready to be shown to the world.

~~~
njharman
3,4 seem business and not technical. If you can't get those, you can't get
software development business and shouldn't be involved with one in a
leadership role.

#3 you disagree with and decide against, but you have to understand why.

------
xpose2000
I don't even listen to a non-coders pitch these days as they can't do any of
the real work.

Jason writes as though he understands the life of a coder. I love that.
Perhaps that's the most important aspect of being a non-coder.

I've also noticed that non-technical people tend to care more about MBAs,
degrees, and are easily woo'd by the name dropping of past employers. Whereas
coders focus more on experience and live examples of work.

------
sparknlaunch12
Yet another black versus white discussion. Technical versus non technical.
Coder versus non coder.

The two cannot co-exist? You are either one or the other?

~~~
dhimes
Agreed. It's one of those blog posts that reflects the deep ignorance of the
poster. Wish I caught the article before it was too late to flag, and saved
the author the embarrassment of being discussed on HN.

I would only invite someone aboard who articulated these feelings if they were
very junior and I thought they had potential.

If they were trying to be an investor, game over. Don't need people who think
they know more than they do in a position of authority. They inevitably wreck
the morale of the entire company, and can literally kill it.

------
rbucks
Can there be such a thing as semi-technical?

I have built products, coded them myself or with some oDesk help, and can at
least read Python, PHP, and (less so) Ruby. I got the most technical MBA you
can get (MIT Sloan) and have utmost respect for engineers.

I've run a chown -R from the root dir when I thought I was in my Wordpress dir
and effectively killed the server. I've spent hours troubleshooting
CodeIgniter problems and http 500 errors. For this, I have a Clintonian "I
feel your pain" view towards programmers/coders/engineers/so-called-technical
people.

So my point is this: I think it IS important, if you run a website, to try to
build stuff on your own. But just because you can't build your own libraries
doesn't mean you can't say you're "technical".

If someone asked me, I'd probably say "yes" but qualify it. I'm not a
technical builder, but I understand what it takes to get technical things
built.

------
pwthornton
Someone might be really good at managing networks or keeping a site going
under heavy load, but they might not be good at programming. Are they non-
technical? On the same front, someone who is good at coding, may not be the
best person in the world for keeping a Web app under heavy load and managing
traffic from around the world. Someone with an information systems engineering
degree, for instance, may know how to code, but not that well, and still have
an extensive technical background.

If you want to know if someone can program, ask them if they can program, and
then ask them to what extent, what kind of programing they do, etc.

------
helen842000
It comes down to the question asked. He just needs to ask for coders outright.

------
joejohnson
God! So many typos! Still, I agree with everything said here.

~~~
16s
Yes, he'll need a non-technical person to teach him when to use _then_ , and
when to use _than_. Believe it or not, that's very important and they are
different words with different meanings. Perhaps an English/PR major or a
well-rounded MBA to cover all the non-technical stuff a business needs.

------
alexanderberman
I think this is an overly simplistic dichotomy. There are definitely people
who are "technical" who wouldn't be the ideal person to build out a big data
startup's software (for example). As a founder, they might be more useful in
shaping product vision, defining marketing strategy, doing business
development etc, but not necessarily actually doing the hands on coding. Is
this person technical? Certainly. Is this person building the product? No.

------
Dobbs
From what I've seen of the software/web world technical means just that:
technical.

This includes but is not limited to Programmers, Operations, and even your
Sales Engineers. I've seen Operations guys who understand technology orders of
magnitude better than programmers at the same company.

What the author is referring to is slightly different and imho he badly
expresses it. Being able to use the internet and an iPhone is not technical
that is just internet savvy.

------
davemel37
The legend goes that Abraham Lincoln had a terrible temper. Whenever someone
upset him, he would write the fellow a nasty letter and drop it in the mail
and he would feel better. Years later it was discovered that his wife would
remove the letters from the mailbox and noone ever saw them.

While this post never told a lie and certainly didnt chop down any cherry
trees i suspect it hurt more people than it helped.

------
qthrul
Summary: There are people that equivocate "technical" with something other
than an invitation for clarification and discussion.

------
kposehn
Hmm.

You can be technical without being a coder - the problem is most people
confuse being technical with having some technical knowledge.

------
cowmixtoo
Whatever.

I haven't been a 'coder' since 1994 yet I'm defiantly "technical". The teams I
lead, AFAIK, don't question my contributions because I don't code. Nor are my
designs less valid.

In fact, my years of involvement on the operations side of the house sometimes
make my choice 'technical' choices more informed than what straight coders
cook up.

Again, phooey.

------
daemon13
This post equates coding skills with creativity/character/skills, required to
build a product or a business.

Maybe ask Kevin?

:-)

------
voxx
Kinda inspirational.

