
Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices - stygiansonic
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-agents-reveal-oversell-practices-1.5008217
======
tomhoward
It's been discussed on HN before [1], but it's worth mentioning in this thread
that there's a YC-backed company – Volantio – working to solve this specific
problem.

Most airlines' position is that they have to oversell flights, otherwise
planes will fly with empty seats unnecessarily.

But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll
voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different flight once they are at
the gate awaiting boarding [this sentence was edited in response to kortilla's
comment below].

Volantio's product applies sophisticated analysis to each flight's booking
levels well before departure time (days or weeks before), and will send offers
to passengers to offer incentives to transfer to less-full flights, allowing
plenty of time for them to change their plans.

So far the product seems to be having an impact for passengers [2], gate staff
[3] and airline management [4].

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16836991](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16836991)

[2] [https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-
advice/qantas-...](https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-
advice/qantas-flight-switch-overbooking-seats-passenger-gift-
vouchers-a8738961.html)

[3] [https://www.volantio.com/alaska-airlines-improves-denied-
boa...](https://www.volantio.com/alaska-airlines-improves-denied-boarding-
processes-for-guests-and-front-line-staff/)

[4] [https://www.business-
standard.com/article/companies/indigo-p...](https://www.business-
standard.com/article/companies/indigo-puts-tech-start-ups-at-the-heart-of-its-
plan-to-become-global-player-119010600632_1.html)

Disclosure: Volantio was a pivot from Adioso (YC W09), of which I was a co-
founder. I'm no longer an active employee or significant shareholder. However
I remain friends with the team and am pleased to see them doing well and
solving an important problem.

~~~
deathanatos
> _But from passengers ' point of view, there aren't always enough people
> who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different flight once
> they are at the gate awaiting boarding_

There are; they just won't accept _any_ offer. Most of the airline offers I
have been offered in this situation were paltry: reschedule and some airline
"credit".

Give me a partial or full refund, and I'll be much more willing to volunteer.
Otherwise, you're seeing passengers value their time higher than some credit
and lost time.

~~~
mruts
I've seen some very lucrative offers. Like $500 credit, upgrade to first class
tomorrow, AND a 4-star hotel room. That might not be the norm, but that's a
pretty amazing deal.

~~~
wlll
I was held at checkin for an Economy Plus BA flight from San Diego to London
and they asked for volunteers to get the next flight (same time the next day)
and you would get $800 cash (prepaid credit card) and a hotel room for the
night.

A few people took the offer, I didn't. As a result they denied me boarding and
gave me the exact same deal, except it was a $1250 pre-paid credit card. I
never expected to be quite so happy about not being allowed on a plane.

~~~
deathanatos
At least in the US, _involuntarily_ getting bumped from a flight requires
mandatory compensation in some instances (if the arrival delay is >1 hour):
[https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-
consumer...](https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-
protection/bumping-oversales)

------
BlackFly
Seems that nobody is reading the article.

Yes, pretty much all airlines are overselling. However, Air Canada employees
speaking on condition of anonymity are stating that business as usual for the
airline is to string customers along until the last minute, even if it is
known well in advance that they are not going to be boarding. That is to say,
passengers with GTE on the gate indication of the boarding pass will not be
boarding but are lied to and told that they will be assigned a seat at the
gate.

Regardless your views on overselling, you probably take a very different view
about being lied to about your likelihood of boarding a flight as you check
in.

~~~
furyg3
Absolutely. To some degree I understand overselling†, and I also know that
airlines don't know who's going to show or not, but passengers should be made
aware and given options. With non-refundable tickets you're committed to the
airlines, they should have a commitment to you. If they choose to oversell,
they should be transparant and give you the option of adjusting your plans...
Instead of pretenting you're on the flight but you're actually flying standby.

Frequent travelers know that getting a boarding pass with a seat number
actually a race they don't want to lose, and will hound the call center if
there's a problem with online check-in.

† Personally I think that airlines regulated and given two options for
overselling flights:

1) If you miss your flight, and a paid passenger takes your place, you should
be informed and not suffer financial consequences (re-booking fees, etc).

2) If the airlines has already sold a full flight and starts knowingly
overselling, it should be communicated to the passenger when they buy the
ticket ('priority standby' or something). This would, of course, make
customers value these tickets less.

~~~
BlackFly
Yes, I can understand overselling as well, but it should be a gamble on the
part of the airlines that they don't want to lose. It seems that in many
places there are too few ramifications for losing this particular gamble.

I think the EU regulations regarding denied boarding are pretty good (or at
least a good start).

------
jtchang
I'm not surprised airlines do this. I don't think it is just Air Canada. In a
way it makes sense but it does make me think they are a bit greedy.

If someone buys a ticket and does not show up for a flight then usually they
don't get a refund/credit (or a crappy one: I'm looking at you United).

But now the airline has an empty seat. The best thing to do is fill it. But
you can't fill it the last moment so you need to overbook. But if you overbook
too much then you need to start bumping people off. So the airline gets to
keep all the revenue from the overbooking as well as the fees for the refund
which can be substantial. It's a bit like double dipping.

~~~
kalleboo
> But you can't fill it the last moment

I remember as a kid flying "standby". You got a cheap ticket but had to sit
around until a seat opened up. What killed standby tickets? Post-9/11 security
hell?

~~~
isostatic
They still exist

------
FearNotDaniel
Is this only a North American thing? I've flown hundreds of times within
Europe over the last few years, and every single time I've had a seat assigned
at online check in, usually 24-72hrs before boarding depending on airline.

I've seen lines of standby passengers at Frankfurt, waiting at the gate just
in case they get lucky at the last minute, but knowing in advance that they
don't have a seat on that plane unless somebody else fails to turn up; and I'd
assumed that the European carriers probably _do_ overbook but manage it at
check in time; I've never seen or heard of anyone ever getting turned away at
the gate when they already had a boarding pass.

~~~
notahacker
I suspect it's rarer in Europe because the mandatory compensation costs of
failing to put a passenger on a flight close to the originally scheduled time
are so high.

That said, I've had a gate agent try very hard to bump me off an intra-EU
flight which I assume was due to overbooking (I was on business, so I expect
they bumped a later arrival with a more expensive ticket instead...)

~~~
ahje
In the EU airlines have to compensate passengers who are denied boarding if
the reason is that the flight is overbooked:
[https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-
right...](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-
rights/air/index_en.htm#overbooked)

The same applies for flights cancelled for operational reasons, and the
airlines may end up having to book tickets with one of their competitors if
the competitor have seats available.

~~~
FearNotDaniel
> In the EU

Ah. So presumably, as a Brit, I can look forward to a new influx of shitty
business practices starting in six weeks' time. Yay.

------
stygiansonic
Supposedly this is a company internal document[0], which states:

 _Air Canada Revenue Management’s team is tasked with ensuring that the
maximum revenue potential is made on each and every flight we operate. As it
is known that a certain percentage of confirmed customers do not show for
their flights, it is sometimes necessary to sell more seats than aircraft
capacity. Revenue Management uses a sophisticated system that uses “day of”
and historical information to monitor all flights in Air Canada’s system,
calculating the acceptable level of oversell risk._

0\. [https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5729064-Denied-
Board...](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5729064-Denied-Boarding-DBC-
Policy-and-Procedures.html)

~~~
cjbprime
That's just a description of overselling. What's unique to Air Canada about
this story? Do the other airlines do this too?

~~~
freeone3000
Service staff appear to not make it clear to customers that unless your
boarding pass has a seat number on it that you don't have a seat.

~~~
vkou
No airline I have ever flown with has ever made this clear to me.

Ever.

Maybe if you know what magic words to ask, and specifically ask them - but at
that point, you should already know the answer.

~~~
dannyw
For the record, I've got the dreaded GATE many times, and never been denied
boarding.

------
theabsurdman
Overselling wouldn't seem as egregious if they didn't then go ahead and do
stuff like this: [https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/air-canada-reneges-
on-...](https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/air-canada-reneges-on-
dollar800-voucher-after-traveler-volunteers-plane-seat/ar-BBTbaP3)

------
alkonaut
Overselling is standard practice in the industry. It's also not a secret. Any
passenger on any airline should be able to ask any member of staff of that
airline and get the same answer: yes we sell more than 100% of the seats, and
if we didn't you would have paid more for yours.

I don't mind this at all so long as my compensation for not being allowed to
board is high enough. That is: who is allowed to board should not be decided
by the airline. It should be decided by the airline asking passengers who can
accept taking the next plane. "We have an overbooking of 3 passengers,
passengers willing to take the next flight for €300 please contact gate 49.".

I have seen this work. I have seen people rush to get that compensation check
(presumably because they had no time to keep, or even a long enough connection
that it doesn't matter for their final arrival time).

If I'm going to a wedding and can't be late, I'm not going to volonteer to
take the next plane.

Obviously: if the airline _randomly_ selects passengers to not board, without
flexibility or "auctioning", that is _absolutely unacceptable_. That will
invariably lead to the passenger selected being the person that can't be late
for that wedding being the one booted. Basically: if there is even a rumor of
your airline doing that - find another airline and let them know.

~~~
iancarroll
Indeed. In the USA, especially after the United debacle, "voluntary denied-
boardings" have become quite profitable for those that take them. When UA/etc
say that they have increased their maximum compensation per person to $10,000,
they aren't kidding, and this does get offered (though usually it's filled at
lower amounts.)

I've taken 4-figure VDBs and been quite happy with the result.

~~~
dannyw
Impressed it ever has gotten to that far. I've taken a $500 + hotel and
thought that was a deal!

------
un_montagnard
Passengers would stop complaining or even start volunteering if Air Canada was
offering them a monetary compensation for postponing their trip to the next
flight. This is what happens in Europe and getting 300€ to wait 4 hours in an
airport is not too bad if you're not in a hurry.

~~~
wjjdjw
Thanks for making this clear.

In the EU, I've been asked multiple times if I'm OK with flying on the next
day. 300€ / 600€ (if +1500km) and a nice hotel are quite nice as a student.

Never understood why overbooking is considered annoying in the US.

~~~
freeone3000
Because Canadians don't get that. We get a $25 meal voucher and a ticket on
the next flight.

------
joecool1029
On topic: Depends on where you are. I was on an overbooked flight with WOW in
Iceland a few months back, they ultimately ended up getting me a seat, but
there is sometime about compensation if they can't get you on a flight within
X number of hours as a result of the fault of the airline. I'll try to dig it
up again...

Somewhat unrelated but I had a terrible time with Air Canada a couple weeks
ago for a YUL > EWR flight. Flight was canceled right before it took off. Gate
agent was like "Sorry. Flight cancelled due to weather, here's a pamphlet with
information and this is the exit door to lead you out of the departure area,
we can't do anything for you."

That wasn't the issue. The issue was I had purchased liquor at duty free and
needed to return it. I very clearly asked the gate agent if going out that
door would still leave me the opportunity to return it. "Yes, no problem".
Well the door dumps you into the connecting area of YUL, leaving you no way to
re-enter the airport without passing through customs back into Canada and then
security to go back to your flight again, where you now have to check the bag
with liquor in it.

Gigantic pain in the ass. Wasted over two hours of my time from having to
check and retrieve the bag. Fortunately, they were able to rebook me manually
on the final flight out that day, automatically I would have been stuck 2
days.

~~~
kalleboo
> there is sometime about compensation if they can't get you on a flight
> within X number of hours as a result of the fault of the airline

EU air passenger rights
[https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-
right...](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-
rights/air/index_en.htm)

~~~
tomp
Do these apply? Iceland isn’t in EU.

~~~
colde
The site addresses this pretty well at almost the top of the page:

\- If your flight is within the EU and is operated either by an EU or a non-EU
airline

\- If your flight arrives in the EU from outside the EU and is operated by an
EU airline

\- If your flight departs from the EU to a non-EU country operated by an EU or
a non-EU airline

\- If you have not already received benefits (compensation, re-routing,
assistance from the airline) for flight related problems for this journey
under the relevant law of a non-EU country.

So pretty much all flights departing from within the EU is covered.

~~~
tomp
Wow is an Icelanding airline, the flight was departing from Iceland, so none
of the above are relevant.

~~~
mxab
> EU means the 28 EU countries [...] as well as Iceland, Norway and
> Switzerland.

It's in the next paragraph.

------
geofft
This seems like standard practice for US airlines, including the part where
checking in and going through seat assignment means you have a seat (because
it indicates you're unlikely to be a no-show). What's different here? Are they
communicating to passengers differently? Are they overselling much more
aggressively than US carriers / worse at predicting? Do fewer Air Canada
passengers accept offers to take a later flight, or do they fly routes where
that doesn't work?

------
lsv1
This practice is used in almost every industry with finite inventory by
Revenue Management teams where there is opportunity to pre-empt a booking,
slot, or (where I am most familiar) a tv spot.

I recall working for television systems management and having a revenue and
yield optimization consultant from the airline industry present to our company
with methods we could use to increased revenue by booking even more spots than
we had and either pre-empting more low value TV spots with automatic
optimization and moving of the spots, or simply taking more time away from
marketing or promotional ads from the network.

Most of the practices recommended by this consultant we had already
implemented, but there were some really neat recommendations specifically from
the airline industry in order to maximize revenue, most of them revolved
around overbooking. Eligible TV spots would be automatically moved forward
(front-loaded) into weekly rotation selling options (groups of program sold
under the same name and price).

I could go on forever, but I suppose as a general comment regarding revenue
management and yield optimization there is nothing which surprises me about
these practices.

~~~
skywhopper
I think the important thing here is just honesty in the business practice.
Presumably you were upfront with your clients about what they were actually
purchasing and what the risks were. The article here is not about overselling
per se but about lying about it.

------
jerkstate
Overselling airline seats is pretty typical, but is there any reason for the
check-in agent to give the ticketholder false hope? That just seems like
passing the buck to the gate agent.

~~~
Johnny555
To sell the seat? If they tell the customer "Well, we're not sure if you have
a seat, go ask the gate agent", then some customers will not want to bother
and will cancel or change their flight -- so the airline goes from an
overbooking situation to an underbooking situation, which costs the airline
money.

~~~
jerkstate
Well I have checked in on oversold flights before but never has a check in
agent ever told me "don't worry about it, you'll get a seat for sure" \- they
have always been honest about how the process will work at the gate and
usually give me a decent guess at the likelihood that I'll get a seat, offer
to rebook (usually you have to ask to have them look for flights on other
carriers, but they are required to do that if possible), but they usually
can't offer as many incentives (miles, vouchers) there like they can at the
gate. What this check in agent is claiming to do on Air Canadas behalf just
sounds unnecessarily cruel.

~~~
hinkley
I did get that assurance once, but I was flying to see a family member in the
ICU at Christmas. Can’t recall now if they asked for volunteers but I do
recall the complete lack of wiggle words calmed me down.

------
K9DRDOh
Air Canada is one of the worst airlines I have ever had the displeasure to
fly.

I had this exact experience a few weeks ago with Air Canada out of Vancouver.
I ended up with the dreaded GTE on my boarding pass, buy essentially refusing
to be extorted ( paying for preferred seating)

You would think, buying the damn ticket entitles you to a seat, but not in Air
Canada, unless you are willing to pay extra.

the most recent time I had this issue, The office travel coordinator booked my
flight, I got an email asking me to go online and select a seat. except the
system wanted to charge me $15 to select a preferred seat, and no option to
select a seat without paying extra.

I actually called customer support and they told me, the only way you can be
guaranteed a seat, without paying extra for it is to wait and login to their
website exactly 24 hours before the flight and manually choose a seat.

otherwise you will not be guaranteed a seat and will be on standby and
assigned a seat at the gate.

It felt like extortion, and is one of the sleaziest companies I have ever
dealt with.

unfortunately, I cannot book my own business trips, and it takes a while for
the new travel coordinators to believe me when I tell them "I would rather
crawl across the country then fly on Air Canada"

------
devoply
There should be a law to disclose this sort of information when you purchase a
ticket... as well as the probability that you will be denied passage on the
flight you are booking... In fact you could even make it so that they tell you
the alternative you will be offered if that event occurs. They could even
offer a premium price to guarantee your flight.

The whole point is to make this process more predictable for travelers. The
tech exists, only the political will to force its use is necessary.

~~~
Johnny555
_They could even offer a premium price to guarantee your flight_

They do -- they call it a "full fare ticket" \-- airlines bend over backwards
to accommodate these full fare fliers, even if it means bumping a paid economy
passenger from the flight. Though it's a pretty steep fee -- usually several
times more than the restricted fare.

~~~
khuey
The SkyTeam alliance guarantees its frequent fliers (people who hold SkyTeam
Elite Plus status) that they can buy a full Y-class fare on a completely sold
out flight and they'll kick someone else off to put them on.

~~~
isostatic
BA do this, although only in economy I think. It’s a 24 hour minimum too. I’ve
never needed it.

I’ve booked on fully sold flights in a full fare class a few days before and
the wait list clears, often in a few hours.

------
pdx_flyer
Overselling is very common, especially with certain airlines on certain
routes.

For example, British Airways heavily oversells their LHR-USA flights in
business, premium economy, and economy. This often means that business class
passengers get upgrades to F, premium economy fills business and if necessary,
they can bring economy passengers forward.

This strategy works for them because they have a ton of very large planes on
some routes that can go through spurts of heavy loads.

------
gruez
I get how overbooking is a good thing (by increasing utilization and
decreasing prices), but the way it's implemented at most places (buried in the
fine print and/or legalized by legislation) leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
I'd be much more okay with overbooking if it was opt-in (or for that matter,
opt out), with a clear cost that's conveyed to the passenger.

------
cameldrv
I've had an extremely bad experience with Air Canada that's eerily consistent
with this article. Upgrade to business at the ticket counter, assigned seats,
and then a red light and a sad noise from the ticket machine when I tried to
board. Then a torrent of excuses, blame shifting, and rude behavior. This
really soured me on Air Canada.

~~~
refurb
As a Canadian who flies a lot, Air Canada has absolutely the worst customer
service. They make the “crappy” American carriers (United, etc) seem luxurious
by comparison.

I remember one time connecting in to Vancouver and asking if I could could
jump on the earlier flight rather than waiting 3 hours. Done this multiple
times with US carriers if there is room. What do they care if the seat would
have been empty otherwise?

I was informed by the AC agent that there would be a $175 fee for the ticket
change. Plenty of other examples of rigidly following the rules even though it
cost them nothing.

~~~
TomVDB
This used to work in the past in the US. But last 5 years or so, every single
time I've asked this with major carriers in the US, I've been quoted similarly
high change fees as well.

~~~
dannyw
Did you use the word 'change' or 'standby'?

~~~
refurb
They have a point, I think a United now charges $75 just to go on standby for
an earlier flight.

------
NikolaNovak
I am not sure how much article is misrepresenting the seriousness.

I travel air Canada 30+ times a year. GTE strictly means what it says - you
don't have seat assigned and you may get one at the gate. They cannot help you
at the checkin until they know who all is boarding. So from that perspective
strictly, I understand that sending them to gate to await their destiny,rather
than try to resolve at the checkin counter. At the checkin,you are a
Schroedinger passenger - just don't know if you'll make it or not. There's
nothing they can do to you there.

I do not believe it is correct to imply that GTE absolutely means you WON'T be
boarded and thus its a complete lie. I have had that on my pass and have
boarded - granted I have a bit of priority (lowest status level). Colleagues
without status have had same experience. You just don't know.

Article also doesn't advise strongly enough to do an online or early checkin.

~~~
K9DRDOh
"Article also doesn't advise strongly enough to do an online or early
checkin."

What is not clear from your statement is that, if you try to check in online,
you must pay for seat selection, unless You check in to the website 'exactly'
24 hours before your flight, even a few minutes earlier you have to pay extra
just to get a damn seat.

there is no option for "I dont care just give me any seat"

you do not have the option of checking in and choosing a seat at the time of
purchasing your ticket. I dont know about you but that feels like they just
want to charge me extra unless I jump through ridiculous hoops just to get a
seat for a ticket that I have already paid for.

I have been put on GTE for exactly this reason at least 6 times in the last
year, and have not eventually been given a seat only once and bumped to the
next flight

------
useful
If the plane was big enough and flights were booked more than a year in
advance they would use actuary tables to be better at overselling flights.

I've worked for airlines so that they could do this, including Air Canada.
Yield management is how airlines live and die.

~~~
hinkley
I recall having a leg of my flight cancelled for mechanical issues. They sent
the entire plane full of people to the ticket agent and somehow they
miraculously found planes for everybody on the next two flights, same day,
same airline.

A few of us commented on how convenient it was that the plane needed
maintenance and three flights on the same route were only 2/3rds full. What
are the odds, he asked sarcastically.

~~~
useful
Airlines are built around operations and scheduling. Some
disruption/reaccommodation software is quite advanced and even takes load
factor, cost, status, and customer LTV into account. Being able to reorganize
entire schedules onto other planes and other airlines in minutes while still
maintaining a 1-3% profit margin is non-trivial.

------
jonny_eh
Doesn't every airline do this?

~~~
arkitaip
I have never seen this happen in Sweden.

------
raverbashing
Wow what a complete irresponsible way of dealing with the issue. It doesn't
beat United pulling a passenger out of the plane, but it's very bad.

The correct way is of course to deal with this before the gate and arrange it
then. "Sorry, our flight is overbooked, would you volunteer to take the next
one with a compensation of $100?"

------
kbos87
I was on an Air Canada flight recently, and I swore it would be my last. Every
step of the experience of buying a seat and checking in was tainted with
growth hacking BS, and I felt nickel & dimed in ways other airlines are
probably rushing to catch up to.

\- Choosing ANY seat in economy or getting any transparency into where they
are putting you comes at an additional charge. I haven't seen this before, not
sure how common it's become.

\- While at the gate, I received a push asking if I wanted to BID on an
upgrade to first class. I could "offer" anywhere between $450 and $900 and see
whether or not I'd snag a better seat.

Air travel has long since become an anti-consumer race to the bottom.
Capitalism has failed here.

------
isuckatcoding
In other news, capitalism is a thing. This is the system the world has come to
accept. This kind of behavior is just a symptom of a larger problem with how
corporations strive for profit over people.

------
ageek123
Wait, there are people who don't realize that when they can't get an assigned
seat when they book the ticket (and it's not because they bought a special
fare that doesn't allow a reserved seats), it's because the flight is oversold
and they will be waitlisted for a seat? Every airline does this.

~~~
Johnny555
That's not always what it means when you have no seat assignment, especially
with codeshares. I've bought tickets that had no assigned seat until checkin
even though the flight was undersold.

