
Online 'Shaming' A New Level Of Cyberbullying For Girls - justhw
http://www.npr.org/2013/01/07/168812354/online-shaming-a-new-level-of-cyberbullying-for-girls
======
anonymouz
_At school, she was hoping that it wouldn't be too big of a deal, but even the
principal knew about the video. He brought her to his office and called her
mom.

"I couldn't even look at my mother because I felt hurt and I also felt that I
disrespected her," she says. "I didn't want kids in the school to look at my
mother and be like, 'Wow, she raised nothing.' "_

A big amplifying factor in these examples seems to be a society and an
upbringing that cannot to deal with sexuality in a pragmatic manner, and
instead prefers a "everybody's doing it, but nobody is talking about it
publicly" approach.

If someone posts intimate pictures or videos of somebody else without their
knowledge, it should be the poster that is shamed and that people disrespect
for it -- after all he has violated an expectation of privacy and intimacy.
Instead it is the victim that is made to feel bad for "being promiscuous".

~~~
harryf
> A big amplifying factor in these examples seems to be a society and an
> upbringing that cannot to deal with sexuality in a pragmatic manner

Interesting to see if society can adapt

~~~
epochwolf
I have my doubts. A lot of the southern parts of the US have a lot of
religious conservatives. I don't see that changing very quickly.

~~~
afterburner
Remember the Puritans settled in the North. In any case wherever this
originates, the US's puritanical tendencies (compared to continental Europe)
don't seem to be exclusively a southern thing.

~~~
waterlesscloud
I'm curious, does this kind of thing happen in Europe?

~~~
afterburner
No idea, but they sure tolerate nudity and sexuality more. The original issue
is more of a bullying one though...

------
king_jester
I've seen a few other comments to the effect that if US society weren't so
prudish about sex, incidents like this wouldn't be so bad. I do not agree.
These situations are not about sexual imagery, its about people using that
imagery and media to engage in harassment campaigns against others. This
harassment is highly misogynist and often is focused on the girl in the
photo/video rather than the person who is maliciously spreading that media,
even if person doing the spreading appears in said media itself.

Fixing this situation requires many things, but at a minimum school
administrators needs clear anti-harassment policies that are enforced against
people who are spreading this media as a form of harassment. Sex education
that focuses on consent and explores issues of patriarchy and rape culture in
the US in addition to basic biology and mechanics of sex is also needed.

Of course, this is a long running issue in US society, so nothing will happen
overnight, but we must demand that institutions we trust with the education
and oversight of young folks be a force for defeating harassment and sexism.

~~~
asmithmd1
If the girl is under age the photo and video are child pormography and
evidence of statutory rape.

Many states also require consent of both parties for a recording or it is
illegal wire tapping.

Why aren't these criminal acts being prosecuted?

~~~
bilbo0s
Because ALL of the people in these videos are normally underage.

Who exactly do you propose we prosecute? And for what? This is a hard problem
with no easy solutions. Principals all across the nation have been struggling
with it, its just not as simple as people like to make it out to be.

~~~
asmithmd1
I would prosecute the people who posses and distribute the child pornography -
not the victims who are in exploitive pictures and videos.

~~~
bilbo0s
You're misunderstanding how this normally develops.

I'll give you an example. Let's take the common version. Don't worry, I'll
make it short:

Two 15 year old girls hang out one weekend and decide to take sexy pictures of
each other. They share the photos with a few other trusted girl friends over
time. Everything's ok, so far. Two months later, the girls are now "enemies".
Or some girl in that small peer group, (clique), falls out with some other
girl, you get the idea. One of them forwards pictures to a larger social group
for the purpose of demeaning the girl or maybe demeaning multiple girls. BAM.
Disaster. Photos are being forwarded everywhere. Parents are calling. Fights
are breaking out in the halls, because maybe someone's brother is a hot-head.
etc.

Now... who exactly do you prosecute for "distributing child pornography". The
girl who was victimized by the bullying right? She was the one who INITIALLY
forwarded the images. Do you see the problem school administrators face?

~~~
asmithmd1
You are right; as the school administrator I am not going to wade into that he
said/she said mess.

But I would call the DA and tell them there is a child porn "ring" in the
school. Have them come in, subpoena phone records, and have a police detective
read their rights and interview everyone involved. You probably only have to
do that every 3 or 4 years to keep a lid on it.

~~~
betterunix
So instead of one teenager who is embarrassed and emotionally disturbed,
you'll have dozens who will go through life as registered sex offenders,
constantly harassed by idiots who think they are child molesters, cut off from
certain jobs, barred from living in certain neighborhoods, marked with the
scarlet letter for something stupid they did when they were kids.

Did the police help solve our drug problems? No, in fact, they made society
worse than it had been when drugs were legal; now we have teams of soldiers
serving search and arrest warrants, all in the name of prosecuting drug
offenses. Do you really want to bring that sort of chaos and mayhem into our
nation's middle and high schools? Schools already have many of the
characteristics of prisons; let's not make that any worse.

------
jordanb
Teenage boys boast about their sexual exploits (with photos, on the internet,
because it's 2012). Teenage girls are incredibly cruel to one another.

Media reports it because it fits an existing narrative about "technology and
culture."

Back when I was in high school, it didn't take pictures on the internet to
ruin a girl's reputation. All it took was some boasting followed by a lot of
gossip. It sounds like the "technology" aspect of this is that the standards
of evidence have gone up for a boy to defend his boast.

~~~
pdonis
_Teenage boys boast about their sexual exploits (with photos, on the internet,
because it's 2012). Teenage girls are incredibly cruel to one another._

Exactly; and this is not news, it's been going on for as long as there have
been people.

The article doesn't even talk about the real lesson here: be careful who you
trust. If you can't trust someone not to secretly record you having sex and
then posting the video on Facebook, then you shouldn't be having sex with
them. The lesson has always been the same, and there have always been people
who don't learn it until it's too late.

Edit: I should make clear that I am not trying to exonerate the teenage boys;
quite the contrary. To allow someone to make an explicit video of you without
your knowledge and post it on Facebook is naive; but to make and post the
video is malicious and cruel. The girls need to be reminded of the lesson; but
the boys need to be shamed and punished.

~~~
mnicole
> The article doesn't even talk about the real lesson here: be careful who you
> trust. If you can't trust someone not to secretly record you having sex and
> then posting the video on Facebook, then you shouldn't be having sex with
> them. The lesson has always been the same, and there have always been people
> who don't learn it until it's too late.

This is nice in theory, but no one really knows who to trust - adults and
teenagers alike. Additionally, girls are often guilt-tripped into sending
these types of photos lest they want to be told they don't really "care" about
the person. I've been hit with that one a few times, even by guys that were
otherwise very respectful. There's also the "come on, everyone does it" pitch,
which is true, but doesn't mean anything when push comes to shove.

~~~
lotharbot
Girls (and boys) are often manipulated into acting foolishly. To generalize
the above lesson, be careful how you allow your behavior to be influenced. Be
careful how much power you give others over you.

(Note that this doesn't absolve others of wrongdoing -- it's just an
observation of a way people can protect themselves from victimization.)

~~~
pdonis
_Be careful how much power you give others over you._

This is as good a short, one-sentence statement of the general rule as I've
seen.

------
justhw
From the comments on npr: _Where is the "and then the boys were arrested for
illegal wiretapping and dissemination of child pornography" part of the story?
"After their convictions, their friends didn't think it was so funny, and the
boys didn't hold their heads up when they had to register as a sex offender"
would stop this from happening quick._

Could you see some measures being enforced to minors?

~~~
asmithmd1
Exactly, why is the principal of the school calling the _girls_ mother? He
should be cooperating with the DA in bringing a host of felonies against the
boys; and then letting everyone know how a felony will affect their lives.

~~~
tjic
Why should the principal be involved in an action that didn't take place on
school grounds?

~~~
asmithmd1
It sounds like the possession and distribution of child pornography took place
on school grounds. I would call the boys parents after I called the police.

------
tankbot
Heard this on NPR last night on the commute home. The piece is a powerful and
very coherent analogy relating modern "slut shaming" to the classic The
Scarlet Letter.

It's heartbreaking to hear about kids making bad decisions in an effort to fit
in, but it's even worse to think that these mistakes can follow them forever
due to the nature of digital content.

I couldn't believe how cruel even the girls were to young women that were
victimized. Some of them were quoted as saying it wasn't even the guys' fault,
that we can't help it. That's so offensive to me on so many levels.

~~~
pdonis
_The piece is a powerful and very coherent analogy relating modern "slut
shaming" to the classic The Scarlet Letter._

I'm not sure this comparison holds. AFAIK the girl in question in this case
was not cheating on anyone; she simply made a bad choice of which boy to have
sex with. Hester Prynne committed adultery (and with a minister to boot), and
it was the adultery that got her the scarlet letter. Not at all the same
thing.

~~~
tankbot
Wow, I really want to ad hom here because you obviously didn't read the
article or listen to the original (and excellent) WNYC Radio Rookie piece, but
I'll resist.

This isn't about _a_ girl or _a_ case. It's about many girls (and boys) and
how public "slut shaming" in the modern age affects their lives. Yes, Hester
was forced to wear a scarlet "A" as her public shaming. But in today's world
the scarlet letter is a digital record that follows you, potentially for the
rest of your life because of a bad choice as a teenager.

Can you now understand Temitayo Fagbenle's allusion?

~~~
pdonis
Ok, s/girl/girls/ and s/case/cases/ in my post. How does that change the
point? AFAIK, all of the girls involved did not cheat on anyone. Hester Prynne
did. My point is that the "scarlet letter" analogy is unfair to the _girls_ ,
because it implies that they have done something worse than just make a bad
choice of who to trust.

~~~
tankbot
They're both about public shaming for sex acts.

~~~
pdonis
Yes, I understand the obvious comparison. I'm trying to point out that the
obvious comparison has flaws that, IMO, bear some thinking about.

------
rayiner
Facebook needs to get involved in policing this sort of thing. They're not a
neutral medium here--they make a lot of money selling 13-18 year old eyeballs
to advertisers, and given the unique nature of the demographic (below the age
of majority) I think they bear a certain responsibility in how these kids
abuse their service.

~~~
mitchty
What exactly should facebook police? Morality? Ethics? What if some group of
friends always ragged on each other and got tripped up in this policing?

I don't necessarily agree that Facebook should be the responsible party. That
really should fall under society and parents/children. A company isn't going
to be able to enforce politeness or dissuade bullies from bullying. This is
another aspect of the human condition. And if it is one we as a society of
humans want to change, we need to do that. Facebook isn't the responsible
party here in my humble opinion.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"What exactly should facebook police? Morality? Ethics?"_

You're suggesting a slippery slope where there is none. The authenticity of
bullying is easy to verify because there is at least one party able to testify
to its undesiredness. We're not talking about policing morality, we're talking
about behavior that, in the vast majority of cases, is quite unambiguous.

> _"That really should fall under society and parents/children"_

There's a false dichotomy here. While we can expect and hope that people are
self-policing of their children and peers, there is room for additional
governance. Why can't we have both? After all, if you ran a convenience store
and noticed that bullies were beating up kids outside and using their lunch
money to buy goods at your business, why _wouldn't_ it fall upon you, where it
occurs, to stop the behavior?

Nobody says Facebook has to become the grand authority on cyberbullying, but
it is within their capability - and IMO there is at least a _slight_ tinge of
moral responsibility - to put a substantial dent in the problem.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> The authenticity of bullying is easy to verify because there is at least one
> party able to testify to its undesiredness.

And that one party ought to be able to unilaterally force me to take down
content?

I understand that this is ok if I'm making a facebook page mocking a 13 year
old girl, but what if I'm making a site that parodies a company, or a CEO, or
a politician, or Justin Bieber?

This slope is indeed slippery as all fuck.

~~~
rayiner
It's not a slippery slope, because there is a categorical distinction between
people below and above the age of majority.

~~~
pavel_lishin
So no parodies of Justin Bieber, gotcha.

~~~
potatolicious
Despite his fame, Bieber _is_ a minor who probably suffers from many of the
same problems we all did at his age. If he is being bullied to the point where
he is compelled to challenge it on Facebook, I have no problem curbing it.

I do not believe our basic treatment of children should change just because
they're famous. Fame is, after all, not a cure for bullying.

~~~
pavel_lishin
How do you make the legal distinction between bullying and parodies?

------
zwieback
Anyone who heard the audio of this piece found out that the boy interviewed
toward the end is a special kind of bad. Technology amplifies but this kid
definitely has a problem.

~~~
brown9-2
For anyone who doesn't have the time to listen - the author interviews a boy
in her school who had emailed a half-naked picture of his girlfriend to his
friends, and the photo had then spread around the entire school. The author
asks the boy "Did she transfer out of the school after this?" and he responds
"No, she stayed and continued to be the same
smut/smitty/skipscapscalleywag/whore she was". The author then asks "Did you
intend it to be malicious?" and he responds with no hint of remorse "I guess I
thought it would be cool or something".

------
menacingly
This is an extremely difficult problem, and it goes a lot deeper than
"prosecute teh boys!!".

They're able to shame sluts because _we_ shame sluts, as a culture. The roots
of it are way social and way deep.

The actual thing that's happening, though, is frightening and damned-near
unfightable.

It's classic and shitty adolescent behavior through a nation-wide megaphone.

We have to prevent kids from using hard drugs because it's literally not
possible for them to adequately weigh the trade-offs and make an informed
decision.

I'd say that posing in a picture smiling next to a penis (like a girl did in
this story) is a similar problem. They are not equipped to make that decision.

As a parent of a daughter, it's terrifying to think that this decision might
ever be one that's hers to make. I'd like to think she'd never do it, but it's
not even a decision that will be made like you or I would make it.

Children don't think like adults. That's why we protect them. Apples go in and
stupid square oranges come out. As much as possible, they should avoid the
position, and as much as possible, we should avoid the consequences having to
follow them for a lifetime.

~~~
king_jester
I agree with you about a culture of slut shaming in the US, but I don't agree
with the idea of protecting young folks for their own sexuality. The issue
here isn't that young people have or enjoy sex, but rather about a culture
that promotes harassment against women for being sexual and uses that as a way
to keep those women invisible.

~~~
menacingly
consciously posing in a photo next to a penis for posterity (which is, after
all, what a photo is) has consequences that extend _far_ beyond your
sexuality. This isn't about getting sheepish about teen sex, it's about long-
term destructive decisions that aren't even necessary for pleasure.

------
guylhem
_Extracts from messages below:

"The author asks the boy "Did she transfer out of the school after this?" and
he responds "No, she stayed and continued to be the same
smut/smitty/skipscapscalleywag/whore she was". The author then asks "Did you
intend it to be malicious?" and he responds with no hint of remorse "I guess I
thought it would be cool or something".

From the comments on npr: Where is the "and then the boys were arrested for
illegal wiretapping and dissemination of child pornography" part of the story?
"After their convictions, their friends didn't think it was so funny, and the
boys didn't hold their heads up when they had to register as a sex offender"
would stop this from happening quick._

To sum that up : What will be the consequences for the guy who leaked the
video? None. So why exactly do you expect a different behaviour ??

Make sure the consequence will be harsh and horrible and maybe the video won't
be leaked but protected and well guarded, ie incentivize

TDLR: if you want to fix a problem, expose people to the consequences of their
acts.

~~~
betterunix
"TDLR: if you want to fix a problem, expose people to the consequences of
their acts."

I think you missed the past century:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_prohibition>

~~~
guylhem
Just try to picture what the situation would be without it. And the sentences
doesn't seem quite harsh.

OTOH, look at what Singapore did - it seems to have fixed their problem. The
"mixed message" in the west about not prosecuting casual users in some place
is certainly also not helping.

(and I'm saying that as someone who believe there is no point in restricting
what someone may or may not inject in its own body, but if one was seriously
against drugs, the current situation would seem like a feeble response to a
real threat)

~~~
betterunix
"Just try to picture what the situation would be without it"

It is not hard to picture, because drug prohibition began a century ago in the
USA. Back when drugs were legal here, things like the Industrial Revolution
happened. Society was not some kind of pit of despair when drugs were legal;
we had problems, sure, but we still have problems today and the drug war has
not solved any of the problems we had previously (but it did introduce many of
the current ones).

"the sentences doesn't seem quite harsh"

Jail time is a harsh sentence. America is so far to the right these days that
we tend to think that putting someone in prison for "only" five years is not
harsh.

It is not just about the sentencing. Right now, we have tens of thousands of
paramilitary raids on civilian homes each year; property is damaged, dogs are
shot, and people are killed. These raids are not reserved for the most
dangerous criminals; they are routinely used to serve search and arrest
warrants against people who are either unarmed or only lightly armed. Many
thousands of innocent bystanders have been killed by the paramilitary teams
that carry out these raids, as have many thousands of innocent people whose
homes were incorrectly targeted.

Worse still, the very paramilitary forces that carry out these raids are
allowed to keep the proceeds from the sales of property seized in the course
of their duties for their own department budget. Some police forces have
become "self funded" as a result. It is a case-study in slippery slopes.

This has not helped to solve our drug problems. Not only are people still
using drugs, but the drugs they are using are causing unnecessary harm.
Methamphetamine is not necessarily a destructive drug; it actually has medical
uses (as a treatment for narcolepsy, ADHD, and for appetite control), and is
sold by the pharmaceutical industry under the name Desoxyn. Yet people who
want to use this drug recreationally cannot buy it legally (it is a felony to
transfer it to someone who lacks a prescription and a felony to prescribe it
unnecessarily) and wind up buying it from black-market sources, receiving a
product that was produced under poorly controlled circumstances and which is
frequently adulterated with the byproducts and waste from the production
process (these cause far more harm than the drug itself; it is these
adulterants that give methamphetamine abusers their "sickly" look). Likewise
with opiates: heroine is often "cut" in ways that are poorly controlled, and
on at least one occasion a black-market opiate dealer sold MPTP, a drug that
permanently induces Parkinson's disease, after failing to properly manufacture
the opiate MPPP.

So if someone were not on some moral crusade and actually wanted to address
the problems society has with drugs -- someone like me -- they would support a
complete repeal of the war on drugs and an entirely different approach. We
manage to produce and distribute alcohol in a regulated manner. We don't need
to throw people in prison, we just need to ensure that people don't kill
themselves or anyone else and that if a person needs help, they can get it.

------
BadDesign
Some teenagers these days are complete idiots, especially _boys_ , in how they
treat their fellow female colleagues/partners.

They think they look cool by hurting the girl's reputation and her feelings in
this horrible way, but in fact they bring to light their real
character/intentions and this should give a BIG WARNING to anyone who
interacts with such fools to depart from them and distrust them.

On the same par, another tragedy in the story is that there are _other
retarded cretins_ like this that support such disrespectful acts, which makes
me really angry and sad about the character of some of the young people of
today's society.

------
nicholassmith
There's still often a culture where guys can sleep around, brag it out and the
female party gets the stick for it, it's just become accelerated by technology
and the fact it's always going to be there, pretty much as long as its ever
referenced anywhere.

There's no technology solution that's easy, and no solution in tackling social
motivations either. It's one of those seemingly intractable problems.

------
littlegiantcap
This has been going on for as long as high school has existed. Hell even way
before that. The only difference is social media has amplified it. When I was
in highschool it wasn't naked pictures being posted or anything like that, but
more just gossip by a guy saying he had sex with some girl or a girl saying a
dude has a small dick. etc. People are shitty to one another. Social media
helps their shitiness get broadcast in new and exciting ways.

------
markmiller77e
Racist comments, comments about skin, color, weight as well as nationality
amounts to bullying and these bullies are nothing but psychos who need medical
help. At home, I use a free app called Qustodio to monitor who my girl talks
to on facebook as the app allows me to watch the profile pictures of accounts
she interacts with. My way of ensuring that she stays safe. Just Google for
it.

------
nextw33k
To call it Cyberbullying is to weaken it.

Its the production of pornography by a minor, which is probably illegal. Its
using Facebook against its terms of use which should result in a ban. Plus
anybody liking or commenting on something which is banned should also receive
a temporary ban from Facebook.

Not really a problem is the rules are enforced.

------
btipling
The proper solution is to involve the police when someone posts such pictures
of underage children on the internet.

~~~
eric_the_read
What if that someone is the underage child themselves? There are several
instances of children being arrested and charged with CP for sending their own
pictures to each other.

IMO, the proper solution is to involve _both_ sets of parents.

~~~
nmcfarl
Well that makes it harder on the cops and the DA - and in the end your elected
officials.

But it's not society's job to make things easy for the Cops/DA/Lawmakers (It's
really sorta vice versa.)

When serious crimes are committed they should be prosecuted not swept under
the rug.

(In other words: do I think throwing kids in Juvie for publishing child porn
on the internet is the right call? Yes. )

------
tolos
Is this just a united statues problem, or in other countries of the world is
it not ok for women to have sex? I want to blame religion, but I doubt that's
the entire reason ...

~~~
shadowfox
You are looking for trivial answers. I doubt if there is one.

~~~
tolos
hmm, I suppose the people that think I have no value to add to this discussion
are focusing on that jab at religion.

But to clarify, I'm not looking for "the answer" and my question still stands
unanswered: what is the socially accepted view of women's sexuality in other
cultures?

My only experience is with the US where there is a huge demarcation, generally
based on the gender of the belief holder, and generally advertisements etc are
weighted towards a masculine point of view for women's role.

Perhaps it would help to explain I've never taken any "gender studies" classes
or similar, so this is a question of mere curiosity.

------
antihero
I think one issue is that if in these situations, the guy is high-fived, and
the girl is shamed. Why can't they both be high-fived? Sex-negative culture
SUCKS.

------
KaoruAoiShiho
_At school, she was hoping that it wouldn't be too big of a deal, but even the
principal knew about the video. He brought her to his office and called her
mom._

So the principal was involved in the slut shaming? Some activist group needs
to sue this principal to show the world that this isn't the correct approach
to handle this type of situation. Her mother should not have been brought in.

The correct thing to do is to arrest the boy for creating and distributing
child pornography and leaving the girl hell alone.

