
Vitamins for convicts could save taxpayers' money - friendly_chap
http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v13n26.shtml
======
DoreenMichele
_Fifteen years ago, the BBC reported that a double-blind, placebo-controlled
study found that adding vitamins to the diets of inmates at a maximum security
institution cut offences by 25%. The greatest reduction was for serious
offences, including violence which fell by 40%._

This in no way surprises me. I had this thought a year or so ago that we ought
to provide better nutrition in prison as a primary means of rehabilitation. I
think I tried to blog about it and it didn't go well. I eventually moved on.

But I am glad to see this article. I hope this idea gets acted upon, the
sooner, the better.

~~~
scoggs
I know and have known so many non-convicted people who turn angry, grumpy and
sometimes violent when they are even 30 to 60 minutes late eating a meal. One
person in particular sticks out. I could easily see how if his diet were
suddenly cut of essential vitamins and nutrients he'd most certainly have the
same effect without knowing why. In my head I'd equate the results of such a
thing happening being even worse because of the compounding frustration and
lack of understanding for why coupled with the feeling of not having eaten a
proper, hunger satiating meal.

~~~
DoreenMichele
Thank you.

 _even worse because of the compounding frustration and lack of understanding
for why coupled with the feeling of not having eaten a proper, hunger
satiating meal._

In the case of the current prison population, it is even worse than that
because they are simply assumed to be violent, maladjusted etc and no one at
all wonders if their health impacts it, even in cases where they have a
diagnosis of being HIV positive or having TB. When a middle class person is
having a health crisis and acts out, the odds are good that people will cut
them some slack and hope they feel better soon. When a prisoner does so, hey,
he is just a criminal with no redeeming value and we should lock him up and
throw away the key.

~~~
scoggs
I'm sure it's written somewhere, tucked away, that keeping prisoners, captives
or other types of incarcerated criminals and POW's on a bare minimum diet
(2000 calories maybe?) sets a certain sort of tone to either get a desired
effect out of those locked away or make them vulnerable to questioning if not
reduced to only having enough energy for one short burst of energy in the
event of a physical altercation.

Of course this has to be against all sorts of laws and conventions so I doubt
it's publicly traded knowledge but the whole idea reminds me of the grey area
psychologists and interrogation specialists tend to talk about when topics
like water boarding and other torture / effective interrogation methods are
questioned.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
IIRC jail (not prison) food is specifically designed to make people lethargic.

Using food as something that can be modified to achieve a desired behavior is
not a new thing. Applying scientific methods to it is more recent.

------
Simulacra
Prison food is the absolute worst in the nation. I used to tutor at prisons.
An inmate told me that a wet chicken patty, shaken in a bag of fritos, and
then heated on a hot plate was considered a gourmet meal in prison. If we are
going to put people in prison, we should at least give them healthy,
nutritious food. Vitamins and supplements would do tremendously to fill in the
gap.

~~~
bitwize
There's a reason why after the total smoking bans in American prisons,
cigarettes were displaced as a de facto currency by... instant ramen.

~~~
Simulacra
And Tuna packets!

------
qwerty456127
> There are more Americans incarcerated per capita than in any other
> Westernized country on earth... With well over two million Americans behind
> bars, and even with more prisons being built literally every day...

This is madness. Period. Something is being done fundamentally wrong and going
catastrophically too far. Simply building more prisons is not a solution.

And the fact the convicts are not given vitamins and other essential nutrients
supplements has always seemed ridiculous and outrageous to me. Simply
terminating them could be more humane than keeping them junk-fed letting their
bodies and brains decay freely, taking not just their freedom but also their
health (including mental health) away from them. This is not a way you can
cure people from their behaviour disorders.

> Average USA cost to keep one inmate locked up for a year: $31,000

By the way, any person that would earn this much a year is considered rich in
Eastern Europe and Russia, the majority of people there live on less than
$1000/month and those of them who care about health still get all the
vitamin/mineral/aminoacid supplements and sound healthcare they need (+
education, sport, yoga/minfulness classes, entertainment, travelling, living
etc) . Needless to say almost none of the people who earn $1000/month or more
are prone to commit felony there (unless they drink a way too much booze),
they just live happily usually as they have everything they need, feel safe
and satisfied. This suggests that just giving the $31,000 or less to a man
will probably do much better for him and the society than spending it on
keeping him in the dreadful conditions described in the article. This reminds
me of the idea of basic income again...

~~~
fyfy18
I live in a post-Soviet country and here the average wage is €500/mo. However
compared to the US you don’t need to pay healthcare or education, a lot of
people own their homes (without large debts, as the ownership was transferred
to them or their parents after the USSR fell), people are a lot happier taking
public transport, and they get 4 weeks paid holiday a year.

So it’s not quite that simple... but yes there is probably a better way to
spend the money than it is now.

------
da02
Here is another article that helps support the connection between vitamin
deficiencies and mental illness:

[https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/02/bill-sardi/weaning-
away-...](https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/02/bill-sardi/weaning-away-from-
psychiatric-drugs-finally-a-way-out/)

~~~
1001101
Might be a hard sell since recidivism is profitable.

------
hannob
Erh... sorry.

This is a webpage about "orthomolecuar medicine". This isn't a real thing,
it's a quack theory that vitamins are some wonder drug that help against
everything. It's been largely discredited.

The evidence for vitamin supplements is extremely clear: Except for some rare
circumstances (special deficiencies and illnesses) they are largely a waste of
money.

~~~
spikels
This is the correct answer. I can’t believe smart people fall for this kind of
bullshit so frequently.

~~~
EliRivers
Can you identify the bullshit that you _have_ fallen for? What bullshit ideas
do you believe right now? If you can't self-correct, you're just the same as
them, with a different set of bullshit beliefs.

------
konschubert
Prisons should be seen as training camps where convicts are re-shaped into
good citizens.

If they means vitamins, so be it. If that means having the inmates run a
vegetable garden, so be it.

I know I'm rambling but sometimes it helps to state the obvious.

~~~
visarga
Funny, because in my country an euphemism for "going to prison" is "going to
university" (thieving & violence university that is) where they meet all those
advanced practitioners of the art.

~~~
bfuller
"con(vict) college" is a popular term in the USA too

------
pascalxus
the big question to answer is, are prisoners short enough on vitamins and
nutrients to increase the likelyhood of disease?

If yes, then a Vitamin pill Might fix the problem - although vitamins pills
are impressively high in vitamins and minerals, the absorption in the body
could be quite limited. but, if it does fix the TB and disease problem, then
its probably a great investment. I mean you can get like half a years worth of
vitamin pills for just 30$.

But, if Vitamin pills aren't being absorbed properly, then we'll need to feed
them foods high in vitamins. Depending on the deficiency, we can find the
foods that are the very highest in a nutrient using my tool here:
[https://kale.world/c](https://kale.world/c)

This tool can find the foods with the very highest nutrient density for
vitamins:A,b,c,e,k and lots of minerals, etc.

For instance, we all know Vitamin C deficiency causes scurvy. So, if you use
the tool, you'll see that the top sources for vitamin C are: red peppers,
broccoli, kale, cauliflower. They are so high in vit C, they would only need a
small amount of it, to reach their daily recommended amount. As little as 40
cals of broccoli gets you to your RDA.

------
neves
Wouldn't it just be cheaper to give them healthier food? At least it is the
common sense medical advice: "you don't need vitamins, just a healthy diet".

~~~
johnpowell
Or gardens. They have the time to tend a garden and feed chickens and collect
eggs.

I'm guessing a third party has a fat contract to provide bad food.

~~~
reefoctopus
Sheriffs literally get to keep the money left over from the prison food budget
in Alabama.

[https://thinkprogress.org/in-alabama-prisons-the-less-
sherif...](https://thinkprogress.org/in-alabama-prisons-the-less-sheriffs-
spend-on-food-for-inmates-the-more-they-earn-2e714c43828f/)

------
bfsg
Stopping the war on drugs and releasing the innocent would be more efficient.

~~~
oblio
Why not both?

------
mnm1
How about feeding inmates proper food instead of the inedible garbage they are
given? These are real people too, with real emotions and feelings. A lot of
them have done nothing worse than smoking a joint. Society would benefit more
from humanely treating its prisoners than it would offsetting the results of a
malnutrition diet. The benefits would go way beyond not spreading disease or
inciting violence inside the prison. It's either that or continue this same
old system that says it's ok to torture prisoners with rape, malnutrition,
ineffective healthcare, and legalized slavery regardless of the fact that they
may be in prison for nonviolent offenses. I wonder which one will provide
better results ...

~~~
swimfar
People don't go to prison for smoking a joint. They go to prison for
distribution or possession of large quantities. And even those people
represent less than 10% of the prison population. There are certainly lots of
improvements to be made to the conviction and prison system, but
misinformation and hyperbole doesn't help the discussion.

[http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-
meter/statements/2015/oct/...](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-
meter/statements/2015/oct/14/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-says-people-are-getting-
prison-sent/)

~~~
jeffmould
There is some truth to both sides. First, there is a difference between "jail"
and "prison". Jail most commonly refers to a county, city, municipal lockup.
This is an individual's first stop on their way to prison (assuming they are
found guilty). When you are first arrested you are taken to jail. At this
point in the criminal justice system, there is no proof of "innocence" or
"guilt". To be arrested the officer only needs to have probable cause. In many
cities, counties, states simply possessing a joint is enough to get your
arrested and taken to jail. Once in jail the problem begins, and this is a
huge issue in criminal justice reform. Many of those arrested for simple
possession of joint are poor and can not afford a cash bail system. This
leaves them stranded in jail until their court dates which could be weeks or
months down the road. Many jails face overcrowding by these individuals that
have not been convicted of crimes but are simply awaiting their day in court.

So while you are correct, most people don't go to prison for smoking a joint,
many do go to jail for smoking a joint. They then sit in jail awaiting their
day in court to plead their case and receive their sentence which is often no
more than a monetary fine.

------
make3
The american prison system is such insanity

------
kbutler
While I agree prisoners aren't treated well, I'm not convinced that vitamin
pills are necessarily worth while.

[https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/do-
multivitamins-...](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/do-
multivitamins-make-you-healthier)

"If you take a multivitamin, it's probably because you want to do everything
you can to protect your health. But there is still limited evidence that a
daily cocktail of essential vitamins and minerals actually delivers what you
expect. The latest round of studies, published in December in Annals of
Internal Medicine, found no benefit from multivitamins in protecting the brain
or heart."

We've seen that deficiencies cause disease, but there seems to be little
evidence that vitamin supplement pills prevent it.

~~~
lukeschlather
The article makes it pretty clear that prisoners typically have diseases, and
that these diseases are pretty likely caused by malnutrition.

Studies of the benefits of multivitamins for otherwise healthy people aren't
really relevant.

------
mythrwy
Then you'll get people yelling about "special treatments for prisoners!".

How about no cost vitamins for everyone? Seems like that might ultimately save
the tax payers money.

Really the argument can extend beyond vitamins. Meeting people's basic
biological needs (adequate nutrition, shelter, clean drinking water) without
pre-conditions seems like it would save a lot of problems and thus money in
general.

~~~
dashundchen
You would think access to basic rights like food and water could be guaranteed
in one of the wealthiest countries in history, where an estimated 40% of food
produced goes to waste.

Instead I so often hear people and politicians rail against WIC, food stamps,
and free school lunches. As if $150 month for groceries or letting infants and
school children not starve is somehow too generous. We must punish people for
being poor.

~~~
liveoneggs
children who are starving are _motivated_ to go to college... where they can
get loans to pay for a meal plan.

------
mabbo
The prison system in America is not about doing things economically or trying
to rehabilitate- it's to punish the wicked for being born wicked. It's Double-
Predestination Calvinism[0] in which _we_ are the good and that's why good
things happen to us, and _they_ are the bad and so only bad things should
happen to them. Why, you can see it's true by the fact that _they_ are in
prison and _we_ are not.

Maybe we don't all think that precisely, but that attitude and feeling is the
pervasive norm that allows politicians to be "tough on crime" by locking
people up for longer, why calls for reform by prisoners are ignored. Once you
stop considering criminals as other humans like yourself but instead mentally
model them as 'bad guys', it's easy to agree to doing things harmful to them.
Once they stop being humans, there's no need to have empathy for them.

There's only so many Charles Mansons out there, people too far gone to help.
Most people in jail could be contributing to society if society would just
help them get back up.

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism)

~~~
SwellJoe
While, I mostly agree, this misses the profit motive of the prison industrial
complex. It is a way to maintain a system of very low-cost slave labor,
without actually using the word "slave".

And, it's not just private prisons that are profiting when more people go to
prison (though that is among the most obvious and egregious abuses of the
system). State and local prisons and jails also sell their captive labor force
to the highest bidder, and use them for government work, as well, passing on
only a small percentage of the proceeds to the workers.

Every American should feel a deep shame about the whole damned thing...but, as
you note, we've got a real fondness for the wicked getting their just
desserts, and as far as most Americans are concerned, if someone is in prison
they deserve whatever horrible thing is done to them. So, "tough on crime"
politicians get to make their donors happy, and nobody cares about the human
lives destroyed for the profit of a few.

~~~
stretchwithme
The cost of keeping someone in prison is way more than most prisoners could
earn at similar menial jobs.

Of course, that doesn't mean that costs can be sent to the taxpayer while
profits are routed to somebody else.

But that is how many things are. Once again, lobbyists manipulate lawmakers
into doing things they would not do if voters had their interests more
faithfully represented.

~~~
SwellJoe
There are lots of things that people would never do if they were paying for
them directly. Government contracts are notoriously padded and wasteful and
often serve the interests of a select few with the right connections; it's one
of the strongest arguments against big government, even if we assume the
government has good intentions and is making good democratic decisions rather
than oligarchic ones (which I don't think can realistically be argued to be
the case here).

So, yeah, it's wasteful of taxpayer money, but also extremely profitable for
the few people who have the lobbyists and the ability to exploit the system.

------
BlytheSchuma
Soylent on tap.

