
We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work. - samd
http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0034
======
weezer
I don't condone conditions like this, but everyone should be able to put this
in the context of the general standard of living in China. I've been to dorms
in Chinese Universities and they don't look much different from the dorms
these workers live in.

The average income per person is $6,600, but still 10% of China's population,
mostly rural people, live on less than $1 a day. (There are some very rich
people in the cities bringing the mean up) The people working in these
factories are mostly rural youth, not well educated, doing the best to provide
for their families and earn more than what they can doing small scale farming.

I'm not convinced that how our western eyes view things is the same as how
locals view this. Even taking home $.50 an hour like the article says means
$2000 a year. If you used to be making a dollar a day, this factory job is
much better than a dead end job as a farmer. Just keep that in mind.

~~~
huherto
Very good comment. They are better off with these jobs than without them.
Still, they should have some basic working conditions. Such as max 45hrs a
week. 2 week vacation a year, etc.

~~~
roel_v
Right, because working more than 45 hours a week is a crime against humanity
and here in the civilized West nobody ever works more than that _rollseyes_

I have a cushy office job but the friends from my adolescent years are now
mostly blue collar.workers. Those who have their own businesses (one-man
shops: plumbing, construction contractors, painters, those type of jobs) work
50 to 60 hours a week, plus client meetings and paperwork in the evenings and
on Sundays. Those who work in factories work regular weeks of 40 hours and
they put "Yay! I'm getting overtime!" statuses on their facebook pages when
they get to work another 10 or so hours, either during the week (evenings) or
on Saturdays. Of course sometimes they complain too when their boss asks them
to work on the day after a big soccer game or whatever and when they had
rather slept in, but in general the overtime is what makes the pay quite good
- so it is mostly considered a _perk_ to get to work overtime.

That is in Belgium, if that matters.

~~~
huherto
These people are working 15 hour shifts and they work 6.25 days a week. That
means they are working over 90 hours a week; every week. I can't believe you
actually compare that with the conditions in the west. The marginal cost for
the employee of each additional hour is huge. Big difference between working
40 hours with frequent overtime and 90 hours a week.

~~~
roel_v
Hey, you are the one proposing a limit of 45 hours - which is HALF of what you
cite here, and which would take away the fat from many people's incomes not
only in China but in Europe & the US as well. I guess that the next thing
you're going to say will be that the limit should be at 50 or 60 or 70 or
whatever - I say, let people make their own damn choices. If these people are
being whipped into working 90 hours weeks, I'd be all against it; in fact I
think that a democratic regime overthrowing a dictatorship that oppresses its
citizens like that is morally perfectly fine. But as long as nobody is made to
do anything, I don't see the problem. In fact if you give this guy the choice
between working 90 hours in a factory for a few years and subsistance farming
for the same amount of time and still being afraid that you'll starve because
of a drought, too much rain, locust plague or whatever, he wouldn't have to
think too hard or long.

~~~
eru
I propose a hard limit of 168 hours of work per week.

------
cryptnoob
This is BS.

    
    
         Over the past three years, unprecedented photographs of 
         exhausted teenaged workers, toiling and slumping asleep 
         on their assembly line during break time, have been 
         smuggled out of the KYE factory.
    

That's what they do there. Even the office workers do this. They turn off the
lights, and for 20 minutes, they all put their heads down on their desk and
try to nap. You may be put off that such behavior is "mandated". What if you
don't feel like napping? But it's not "exhausted workers" passing out from
lack of sleep. What crap this is.

"photographs ... smuggled out"? Really? I've taken these photos myself, with
factory management standing next to me. To western eyes, seeing a room full of
workers sitting in silence with their heads down, in the middle of a work day,
is interesting, and I wanted to show my wife. No "smuggling" was necessary.

------
binarymax
The comment that kept jumping out at me was using a bucket as a shower. I was
living in Thailand for about 1.5 years and apart from my lavish westernized
apartment in Bangkok, about half the places I stayed in had buckets for
showers. The first time I used one I kind of complained, but I got used to it
quickly.

Then, when I moved back to England, my girlfriend at the time lived in a
council flat. There was a bathtub but not enough water pressure for a shower.
Luckily by that time I was an expert with the bucket.

~~~
SanPedroGrouch
As an American I need to ask what is a _council_ flat? Is that like what we
might call "public housing"? (Cheap, often low-quality)

And how did you like life in Bangkok?

~~~
Quarrelsome
Yep. It used to be the case that council housing was given as part of social
care and/or at subsidised rents. It still is, to a degree but nowhere near the
amount it used to. Originally it was part of resettling the displaced
population after WW2 and the bombing of the UK.

The Tories back in the 80's decided that "home owners" were Tory voters so
introduced a "right to buy" scheme that enabled tenants to purchase their
properties at discounted costs. This means that a lot of council property in
the UK is now actually private property. A lot of people made a lot of money
with these purchases due to the recent housing booms. However it is a case of
location, location, location as some lost money as in some locations
properties can be practically worthless (Hull or Burnley being examples).

------
potatolicious
This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just
about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled
that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A.

It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and
freedom that it can get much, much worse.

That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe:

> _"The idea that ‘without sweatshops workers would starve to death' is a lie
> that corporate bosses use to cover their guilt."_

Okay, my mother worked as a child sweatshop laborer in Taiwan in the 60s,
before the country bootstrapped itself out of abject, agrarian poverty, and I
take issue with this. It's a straw man; her family was extremely poor, but not
in danger of starvation. Without sweatshop labor she wouldn't have starved to
death, but she also wouldn't have been able to go to school, get educated, get
employed in a white collar job, and eventually move abroad.

Anecdotes do not data make, but knee-jerk emotional reactions and weasel words
don't help anyone.

> _"To "shower," workers fetch hot water in a small plastic bucket to take a
> sponge bath."_

I hope the author realizes this is _common_ in Asia. Hell, that's how I grew
up - showers were somewhat foreign and scary when I first encountered them.
Surely there are more convincing indictments about the evils of this
workplace.

> _"We (who?) would respect us? We are ordered around and told what to do and
> what not to do. No one in management has ever asked us about anything. There
> is no discussion. You feel no respect."_

This is why I can't take this article seriously - this is also how factories
work in the West, where labor laws are followed and abuses minimal. Do we
seriously expect factories to be a creative, communal endeavor where
management talks everything over with line workers? This isn't office work.

Privileged white collars shocked and dismayed that blue collar work can
really, really suck. News at 11.

Looking at the pictures in the article, this place looks no different than a
million other factories in any other developing country. In fact, the
conditions look downright _sanitary_ , which isn't always the case. To me this
isn't much more than another comfortable Westerner shocked and appalled that
conditions are so much worse _everywhere else_ in the world. Hi, welcome to
reality.

> _"While working, the young people cannot talk, use their cell phones or
> listen to music."_

... and this is different than other factories how? Even in the West this is
basically the case. What, do you think a production line is happy happy fun
times where workers chat on a bluetooth headset with their friends while
assembling electronics?

> _"Workers need permission to use the bathroom or drink water."_

It's an assembly line! How privileged do you have to be to consider walking
away to the bathroom randomly at work to be anything but a luxury? Hell, it's
a luxury that even in _this_ country many people do not have.

> _"Security guards search workers' bags and pockets as they leave the
> factory."_

Same in the USA, especially in warehousing/supply chain jobs.

The only thing really convincingly _bad_ about this particular workplace that
the author has exposed are the long hours, but this is also typical of the
country it operates in. Workers are _paid_ for their overtime, and many in
fact _prefer_ it - many are doing this only as a means to something else -
education, rescuing family from poverty, etc, and overtime means they get
there more quickly. I _really_ don't see anything egregiously or especially
bad this place compared to any other factory one might come across - and it
reads like a hit piece against Microsoft.

~~~
lutorm
"Privileged white collars shocked and dismayed that blue collar work can
really, really suck. News at 11."

Your comment made me think: Privileged white collar shows complete disregard
for those that have it worse. News at 11.

~~~
potatolicious
Despite what you might think, I'm no Ayn Rand-quoting objectivist ;)

What I do think is that this article makes much ado about nothing - sweatshop
labor permitted my parents' generation to pull themselves out of poverty, get
educated, and get white collar jobs - in fact my mother and all of her
siblings eventually all got white collar, comfortable desk jobs.

What we're looking at is a country in a natural evolutionary state towards
wealth - much like the US's tendency to _impose_ democracy on nations with no
foundation necessary for its success, it would IMHO be disastrous to attempt
to enforce Western standards of work (or hell, enforcing white collar
definitions of what is reasonable and fair).

Taiwan has evolved from a cheap-labor, sweatshop labor model to an educated,
R&D-centric model. The island has gone from an agrarian backwater to one of
the urban jewels of the Pacific. I am glad that this has happened - and yet
I'm not convinced it would have gone down that well if well-meaning Western
labor activists had their way.

I do think that fundamental worker safety must be ensured - companies
certainly have proven that they can't be trusted to do that on their own, but
enforcing someone's "right" to use a cell phone while working? Really?

~~~
krschultz
Taiwan is not the counterexample to this article to prove that China needs the
sweatshops and they are excusable because the ends justify the means.

First you overestimating the extent to which the sweatshops in Taiwan are the
cause of its progress and ignoring what other factors were involved. There are
plenty of countries in the world teaming with sweatshops, few are growing into
Taiwan 2.0

What are those other factors?

1) It is a smaller country.

2) Taiwan's opposition to China was/is very valuable to and respected by
western nations. Is it a coincidence that the country that most antagonizes
China is supported by the US and gets a lot of business/help from the US? I
know companies that refuse to outsource to China but will to Taiwan in a
heartbeat.

3) etc

Second, it doesn't _have to be this way_. There are manufacturers in China in
less competitive industries that follow more western practices. The really
competitive industries have these sorts of problems (and yes, slave wages and
total control of a workers life _are_ problems even if they aren't living in a
toxic waste dump). The only way to solve that problem is systematic change
because fixing any single factory just puts it out of business. Since
systematic change from within China the way it happened in Western countries
is not happening due to the lack of free speech and political forces,
activists put pressure on western companies to stop outsourcing to these
places.

And where would they go instead? Probably Taiwan.

~~~
eru
> 1) It is a smaller country.

So if you carved up China into smaller countries, that might help?

~~~
aswanson
It probably would, decentralizing control and allowing competitive economic
regimes to emerge, rather than the counterproductive nepotism rampant there
now.

~~~
eru
That might be true. As long as they can preserve a free trade area / customs
union, pushing authority down to the lowest level possible is probably a good
idea.

------
dean
"China does not have unions ..."

Oh the irony. A communist country that exploits its workers like a true
capitalist.

~~~
akgerber
China, of course, only being nominally communist.

~~~
eru
And capitalists only exploiting workers when it pays.

------
fexl
Although I'm comfortably ensconced in the USA working in my own business, I've
done my share of physical work, starting at the age of 14. It could be tiring
and nasty but I went home with pride and money. I'm not doing that kind of
work now but my point is it was a good start.

I'll tell you precisely what provokes outrage in me: the use of physical
violence or the threat of physical violence. Example: "When I tried to quit
this disgusting, dangerous, demeaning, and exhausting job, the manager struck
me in the face and locked me in a room until I apologized." Example: "When I
mentioned that I might quit this horrible job, the manager said that there was
nowhere to hide, and his people would find me and make me sorry."

Now _that_ is the kind of thing that really outrages me. But consider this: "I
was raised on a farm and came to work at this factory and I hate every minute
of it, but I'm still working here because I'd rather do that than go back to
the farm or wander the streets homeless."

That does _not_ outrage me. It saddens me, yes. I'm very sorry that this
individual at this time in her life only has such poor and few choices.
However, I must _allow_ her that choice. The _worst_ thing I could do is use
the threat of violence in the other direction, as in: "If you try to work in a
factory for 80 cents an hour, I will physically restrain both you and the
factory manager." The only thing I would accomplish by that, apart from
violating my own code of conduct, is to limit the options of this individual,
consigning her back to the farm or streets.

The very _best_ thing I could do is compete in the labor market, creating new
opportunities and offering higher wages and better conditions. Although I am
not a factory manager, that is always my aim. For many years in my business it
was just my partner and I doing all the work. But I'm proud to say that in
recent years we have been contracting with others to do some of that work, and
it is feeding families.

In conclusion I would say that the armchair outragers should first _do no
harm_ , and then ideally _do more good_.

------
cloudkj
I feel that some of the pictures are taken out of context and portray an
inaccurate image. In Asia, it's common for schools and workplaces to allow
students and workers to put their heads down for naps in the middle of the
day. The article uses an image of workers seemingly "collapsed" on the work
bench as the first picture to depict harsh working conditions, which is
misleading.

------
whyme
NEWS BULLETIN - North Americans benefit from trade practices that reap the
rewards in taking advantage of other countries less protected workers. YUP.

For those of you that are complaining about how the article is merely story
spinning to target Microsoft, I think you're de-sensitized.

Comparing the worst places to work in North America to the average place to
work in China may make yourself feel better, but it's just dishonest thinking.
If an American wanted to buy a Computer Mouse would you not think it easier
and cheaper to buy one locally? Of course not, because there's too many other
countries with unprotected workers to take advantage of that make it cheaper
for US..... doesn't this basic concept lend any understanding that there's
something wrong here? It does to me. If the treatment norm were that same as
you're own country then the product cost would go up.

The playing field isn't level and that's ok, but that doesn't mean we should
feel good about taking advantage of them. I know, I know - we're helping them
right? Give me a break. There are ways to help them while not taking advantage
of them.

Don't buy from countries that don't meet the treatment norms your own country
has. It raises the bar for them, and they will to get our business. Meanwhile
it's not like Americans couldn't use the work. Yes product costs go up, but so
do local jobs increase and quite frankly maybe inflation is the cost of being
ethical, maybe North Americans should be a little less wealthy and little more
honest.

~~~
r0s
We are rich because they are poor. The horror of the problem is only ever
counterbalanced for me when other people recognize the macro-feudal nature of
our economy.

~~~
roel_v
This is plain false. They become richer because we are rich and let them work.
When the tide goes up. all boats rise.

------
SamAtt
"China does not have unions ..."

China might not have unions but they do have child labor laws and if those
aren't doing the trick I don't know how a union would. It's a market with a
poor, easily exploitable labor pool desperate for work (they have double digit
unemployment in the rural areas and the nation's average salary is under
$6,000 a year).

So I can't see how a union would help unskilled workers when the factory could
easily fire the whole factory and have it full again within a week

~~~
jhancock
Its my understanding China's constitution does protect unions. China is a
nation of many provinces, each differing in their respect to national rules.
Even within wealthy, better regulated provinces like Shanghai, behavior is
highly uneven. I have seen cases where unions and other labor laws (maternity
rights is a huge one) were heavily weighed in favor of the laborer. Its still
not enough.

------
norswap
The strong focus on Microsoft made this article sound suspicious to me from
the start, but it got worse as I read.

------
peterwwillis
14 and 15 year olds should not be working in sweatshops. what the hell is
wrong with the people defending this? this isn't the pampered western worker
vs the average 3rd world worker, this is kids being forced to go without sleep
and effectively without a life for pennies. fuck that. i know most people will
argue something like "they are probably lucky to get it." it's still bad for
them, and trying to justify the bad conditions with arguments like 'its
expected of them' really exposes a true lack of empathy for one's fellow man
and some pretty selfish reasoning.

~~~
ErrantX
I can understand your sentiment (Im sure I once shared it too). However please
bear in mind this is a huge culture clash problem. Extended visits to the
region will throw things in a new light (like it did for myself).

Now, clearly, conditions definitely are a problem in many places. However the
general theory of working at 14/15 is more of a cultural thing and _not_ an
issue.

I don't think it's correct to dictate society rules such as "thou must not
work under 16" just because we happened to stop that practice several years
back. I find it a bit sadistic that we wish to dictate that sentiment to
others...

Of course us then _exploiting_ that work environment is a whole other problem.

Additionally; what's the solution? Stop all these kids working? What are they
going to do? Really, seriously? Increased wages would be good - that is
certainly something we should encourage.

~~~
Sandman
_Additionally; what's the solution? Stop all these kids working? What are they
going to do? Really, seriously?_

Umm... I don't know, maybe go to school and get an education like the kids in
Europe and the US do, so they can get a better job than this?

~~~
ErrantX
Heh, see there is the cultural differences right there.

An industrial job has little stigma in some parts of the world. Indeed in
certain situations it is a big step up from the jobs your parents do. For some
those wages _are_ the "better" job (again, not ideal, but you have to consider
that as the context).

It's not an ideal situation, certainly, and it should be a moral imperative to
offer those less well off chances at the same comforts we enjoy. But I dislike
the idea of judging the situation based on the rules of _our_ society, that's
all.

~~~
Sandman
I agree that we shouldn't judge other cultures based on the standards of our
own culture. However, I somehow doubt that kids working 15 hours a day
actually prefer that to having more free time. Nobody would work those hours
unless they actually _had to_. And that is the problem. The fact that those
kids _have_ to work under these conditions, instead of going to school,
hanging out with their friends and so on. Perhaps some of them would actually
like to get an education, to work as an engineer, or a scientist, or something
else - but they don't even get that chance, they're stuck working on that
assembly line.

~~~
ErrantX
> Nobody would work those hours unless they actually had to

Patio11 will tell you the hours Japanese salarymen have to work to get
anywhere. Same sort of situation; but it's not kids so it's fine ;)

If they don't work there what do they do - how do they go to (or afford)
school? For the most part this is _not_ a "job for life". There is a career
path of sorts and, eventually, you work your way up.

This is partly what I mean by stigma: why is school the "better" option. (I
can't argue with the hanging out with friends thing :))

I'm sure many would like to have an education; _that's_ the problem to fix -
how to offer it to them!

I'm not necessarily condoning this as a _good_ situation but it fucks me off
when people like the GP make very broad, judging statements with no context or
experience of the culture and situation.

EDIT: I will say that while I have met several people that work in these
places they were all older work-study types. So they were at schools, just
working like stink in holidays/downtime. Hell; I did that working on my Aunts
farm (voluntarily) doing 14 hour days :) (yes, I realise I had a choice there;
not trying to compare too deeply)

I have no idea if there are these very young people working there (though I
was told there were) or to what extent / why they are forced to be there.

------
gxs
I think the conditions in this factory are actually quite above what you can
normally expect to find, and for that kudos to Microsoft.

My mom used to work for a guy that imports ceramic tiles from China- now those
workers had conditions that were just plain awful.

While I definitely don't condone these actions, I think the author perhaps
should have aimed his venom at a more deserving target.

------
mburney
I thought this was going to be about working in an American corporate office

~~~
kwyjibo
I thought it was about running a startup in the early days ;)

------
yic
Whenever I see a sensational news like this about China I wonder if the
journalist is sincerely stupid or purposely evil. The picture for showing
"exhausted workers" is a joke: there is a tradition to have a nap after lunch
in China so in many businesses the hour after lunch is basically off hours.
The place my parents worked for have 2-3 hours of lunch break so everybody can
go home and have a nap. In bigger cities where people can't go home, people
find convenient places for the nap: on the desk, or "under" the desk, and all
conference rooms are closed for the same purpose as well. Heck I am still
keeping that habit and have a small futon by my desk now (glad I have my own
office).

The "sweatshop" is also a joke for westerners. In more developed cities in
China, workers are free to change their employers just like in the west, and
it has been in that way for a couple of decades. Those factories don't offer
what we called "hu kou", so the employer has no power to slave the workers
except higher pay.

The photo of the worker's dorm room is funny as well. I went to a good
university in China (about 14 years ago) and that's how my university dorm
looks like. It is difficult for westerners to live in that situation but using
that photo as a proof that workers are slaved is misleading.

~~~
wallflower
> In bigger cities where people can't go home, people find convenient places
> for the nap

I often wonder why napping is not easily permitted in U.S. offices. The
benefits of napping last way beyond where it is practiced in Kindergarten.

------
rubyrescue
How do people who are appalled by this not contribute to it without exiting
the world of technology altogether? I can't imagine the factories for Apple or
Dell are any better...

Is there a "no-sweatshop" watchdog organization for tech that says what
equipment is manufactured in better conditions?

~~~
lsc
how effective do you think such an organization could be?

For example, the first job I worked at the age of 14-15 was below 'minimum
wage' in my area and thus could be called an 'illegal sweatshop' but
realistically, considering my background and options (I had no immediate
financial need to work; this was my 'foot in the door') it was just some kid
getting some experience.

The thing is, I didn't go to school. (I mean, I went to highschool, but that's
little more than babysitting. I didn't go to college) If you want to get a job
that requires a degree without having that degree, you need to do that job for
a smaller company that is paying you way below market rates before you can do
that job at market rates. It's the way it works, and it worked out fine for
me. I ended up making more than anyone I grew up with.

I'm not saying that my situation compares with that of the Chineese teens; I'm
just saying, you need to be careful to define sweatshop in a way that would
protect those who need protecting, without getting in the way of those who
don't. My stepmother made me quit my first job after she found out that not
only were they paying me under the table, they didn't have workman's comp. I
was being "exploited." I mean, I was being exploited. But it was a hugely
positive experience with me. The shady computer repair place sold me
discounted used computer parts for years to come, and I was able to get a
(legal, minimum wage, with school credit) job at one of the local county
offices that was a customer of the shady computer repair place the next
summer, so it all worked out okay in the end, but without getting that foot in
the door, who knows how long it would have taken my career to take off?

I'm not saying yours isn't a worthy goal, just... you need to be careful with
it.

~~~
rubyrescue
I appreciate your anecdotes and I had similar experiences, but I don't think
those examples are comparable to the life of a factory worker in China.

I agree there's no simple way to define the standard, but there should be a
higher bar than this.

------
dkimball
The defensiveness of some of these comments is unsettling. Inhumane conditions
are inhumane no matter where they are, and no matter what the situation is in
the society; it is never right to do to one's workers what this article is
describing, not even if there's a lot of competition for their jobs.

This is the kind of thing that explains why the United States is not lassiez-
faire capitalist anymore; and it emphasizes that we should forswear our
addiction to shopping cheap, in favor of buying what is produced in a morally
licit fashion, and genuinely punishing corporate leaders over whom the US has
jurisdiction and who knowingly go along with this kind of thing. I don't mean
sanctions directed at the corporation: I mean punishing the individuals who
sign off on or turn a blind eye to this, and I think that a crucial part of
any such punishment, in addition to a long prison sentence, is the
confiscation of the individual's personal fortune -- since this kind of person
(well, almost always "this kind of man") sees money as score, and his
objective is to die with a score high enough to leave his initials on the
game's attract screen.

I want to emphasize here that this is not partisan United States issue,
either. I am a serious Catholic; I vote Republican and like the Tea Party
movement; and I know that this kind of thing is wrong, and that you don't have
to be a Green, "pro-choice," or a gun-control advocate to recognize it as
such.

~~~
roel_v
Pray tell, what is it exactly about the conditions described in the article
that is "inhumane"? I don't see anywhere that people are being forced to work
more than 8 hours, on the contrary it clearly states that overtime is
optional. Most of the points that are made in the article are standard
practice in factories here in Western Europe, like timed bathroom breaks,
can't use phones while working etc.

The photos are misleading too, at least the ones with the people sleeping on
the assembly line. While unusual in the West, in my (admittedly limited)
experience with Asia (and China in particular) it is much more normal and
culturally accepted to take a quick nap during breaks, while waiting for a
train/bus, .. anywhere where there are a few spare minutes. This article makes
it seem like these people are whipped to work until they literally fall asleep
on the assembly line.

I'm not saying that there are no cases of abuse of factory workers; I'm pretty
sure there are, and I in no way want to defend those. I live in an area where
there were documented instances of people being whipped if they didn't cut
coal fast enough, as little as 150 years ago, and that is a black spot in our
history. However if this article describes the worst factory they could find,
and if the situation that is described is the worst possible description of
reality, it seems to me that capitalism has given these people something that
they could only have wished for 50 years ago.

~~~
dkimball
Overtime here is not mandatory, but employers have an obligation to pay a wage
suitable to their employees' dignity as fellow human beings -- not necessarily
their country's minimum wage; and from the article, it does not sound like 770
RMB/month -- nor even 1500 RMB/month -- are at this level. (Also note the
manipulative use of fines and wage witholdings, which no one has commented on
as yet on HN.)

These problems, plus 30-40 hours of overtime per week, a frantic pace of work,
and no concern for workplace injuries or avoiding sexual harassment (an
overused concept in the West, but the idea of keeping managers from exploiting
female subordinates is sound), do not add up to acceptable working conditions.

I'm ignoring the article's pro-union orientation (unions are no cure-all,
especially since union bosses are easily corrupted); and I'm aware of the
cultural habit of taking naps during breaks. I'm also not going to talk about
air conditioning, since it was only invented 60-odd years ago; nor will I
comment on bucket sponge baths; and I'm sticking to RMB here, since expressing
RMB as USD (especially USD at the nominal rate of exchange) is misleading at
best.

Is some of this standard practice in the United States? Yes. (I'm not familiar
with practices in Western Europe.) Do wrong actions become right because
citizens of one's own country are doing them too? No.

~~~
roel_v
First, I never said that actions that are wrong become right because we do
them. What I'm saying is that they are perfectly fine for us (or were fine for
us in the period we transitioned to a capitalist system), and I do not see why
they wouldn't be for these workers (I'm talking about the no phone, keeping
finger nails short, searches while leaving factory etc, not the sexual
intimidation - see below).

Secondly, I can't comment on how much money the guy from the article is making
or how much purchasing power that represents. However it does seem that he
needs to support not only himself, but also his parents, plus save up for a
bride price, a practice itself instigated by years of dysfunctional
demographic control policies. I would estimate that only the top 20 or so
percentiles of youth in their 20's in the West make enough money to support
themselves, their parents AND save up for a significant expense. (I'm not very
familiar with the current marriage market in China but I've read that in some
areas prices of $5000 are being paid. That would represent several years worth
of (average) salary. How many people in their 20's in the West do YOU know who
can save up 150k in a few years?) So all in all the elevated need for income
seems to come from externalities. While unfortunate for this worker, and I
sympathize with his hardships, I think no reasonable person will argue that he
should be paid according to his 'need' (use of vocabulary of a certain flawed
economic system intentional)

Again, I'm not saying that because 'we' (Westerners) have something that that
makes it right; but again in this case, it seems like this guy faces the same
challenge that many young people in the West face, and while many of us like
to complain (myself included), I would not argue that this is imposing
'inhumane conditions' upon us.

Then, about the work safety regulations - fining people for getting hurt is
not right. The article does seem though like they had to go out of the way to
find an example of such an instance. On top of that, not only the worker was
fined, also the management, and the worker was re-hired. Still no excuse for
unsafe working conditions, but again if this is the worst example they could
find, I'd say they're doing quite OK. We can't really tell from the article if
it's really unsafe, and I have a hunch the author would've let us know if he
knew just one more way to make it seem like a horrible factory.

Lastly, the sexual harassment. For this, too, there is no excuse; on the other
hand, it's quite easy for something to be labeled 'sexual harassment'
nowadays. The article only says "Some security guards sexually harass the
young women, often using very provocative language." which seems to suggest
that in the most extreme cases, they use "very provocative language". Again
without details this is hard to judge but it hardly seems to be the daily gang
rape that the rest of the article suggests it is.

(Let me be clear, for the record, that no form of sexual harassment, in any
place or form, is ever OK. However there are gradations of sexual harassment
and my point is that from what we can tell from the article, the worst that
happens is in the same class of behavior as mild picking on a colleague - not
acceptable, but not the worst either, in the broad moral spectrum).

So in closing (at last...), my original point still stands. If the facts in
the article (of which there are few, in between all the rhetoric) are correct,
and if these facts are interpreted in context, even when contrasted with so-
called 'advanced nations', there seems to be very little that is out of the
ordinary (if not up for some improvement, as is the case anywhere), and
certainly not as "dehumanizing" or exploitative as the author wants to make us
believe.

(sorry for the long ramble :) )

------
confusedcitizen
If an individual decides to be highly competitive by working crazy hours, is
that considered bad? Will her colleagues complain to the labor department? A
capitalist country's inhabitants, who belong to a system driven only by output
and profit, complaining about labor practices, is the biggest oxymoron.
Surely, the Chinese industries tactics are understandable?

In order for the Chinese manufacturing industry to be competitive, they
indulge in such practices. If you want to remain competitive, one way is to
cut costs or increase production, the way they do or by way of technological
innovation. Or create high quality products, that consumers would want to buy,
instead of the cheap {quality, cost} ones made in China.

The opponents of outsourcing are surely barking up the wrong tree. The Chinese
workers surely have a choice of not working there. Agreed, that if they choose
to work, life is pretty much miserable. But what if they choose not to work
there. Do they go back to their non-existent farms, or to the streets? If such
labor laws are enforced, the obvious impact is that oursourcing would move
elsewhere. There will always be some country willing to take it up, and not to
mention the people who would welcome a respite from their poverty.

The Chinese industry has decided to stay competitive. The people are probably
between the devil or the deep sea, and it's all about choosing the better
path, which in this case, simply is working 15 hours a day.

~~~
jerf
"A capitalist country's inhabitants, who belong to a system driven only by
output and profit,"

You seem to be confused about "capitalism". In a capitalist system, workers
are in a market as well and negotiate wages with the employers. Aggregate
market behavior emerges from the individual behavior of who works for what.
Individual employers may make "take it or leave it" offers, but they are
embedded in a larger market and if enough people don't "take it", they have to
raise their offer. Complaining about labor practices isn't weird, it's a
bargaining chip.

It's the totalitarian systems where complaining about labor practices makes no
"sense". They work under a de facto oligarchy or even flat-out monopoly in
terms of where they can work, and when you have that, you no longer have
capitalism. Hint: If you don't see a market, you're not talking about
capitalism.

------
latch
"Everyone tries to keep an eye on the time, constantly looking at their
watches. Time crawls by very slowly."

In fairness, time always moves slowly when you stare at the clock...

------
dgallagher
Industrial Revolution repeating itself:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution#Social_ef...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution#Social_effects)

Is a phase like this required for developing nations to pass through?
Specifically, large developing nations? Or could it be skipped, or at least
have its negative human effects mitigated?

~~~
huherto
good point. Some nations were able to pass through in peace, but in other
places it generated an unimaginable blood shed. I totally believe in market
economies, but you have to make sure human beings are not abused.

------
motters
Shocking. This is what used to be called "the unacceptable face of
capitalism". It is this sort of unregulated industrial production which in
western countries led to the labour movements and improvements in working
conditions and health and safety standards throughout the 20th century.

The internet provides an excellent means by which to expose malpractice.
Hopefully Microsoft will put pressure on their suppliers to ensure that
workers aren't being mistreated. Make no mistake about it, if working
practices like these were to exist today in a western country like the UK the
company would be facing very significant fines and compensation claims.

------
barmstrong
They are not prisoners for the simple reason that they can quit at any time.

If they choose to stay at the job it means it's because they want to - by
definition they want the money more than they want to leave the job, otherwise
they'd leave.

If anyone wants to go there and provide better opportunities to lure these
workers away from Microsoft, they are free to do so. There is a market for
labor just as with any other product. But until then, Microsoft is offering
these people the best job at the best wage available to them, so we have no
grounds to criticize.

~~~
gridspy
When they quit they are fined 15 days wages. Because they rarely leave the
compound they don't have the chance to foster opportunities outside the
factory.

------
rajdevar
i am feeling lucky to work in U.S.A (best country to work) after reading
this..i think i shouldn't brag about a few extra hours i work.

~~~
Quarrelsome
"best country to work" have you heard of France? I think they have a maximum
30 hour work week. :O Although I guess this depends on your definition of
"best" ;)

~~~
krschultz
What are the other differences? I'll take 5 extra hours a week for keeping a
much larger part of my pay after taxes and avoiding the unemployment they
have.

And I'm not a conservative at all, I'm one pushing for higher taxes when
necessary, but even I think that hours at work is a terrible way to measure
happiness at work. I had a 40 hour a week job and I hated it, now I have a 50
hour a week job and love it.

~~~
korch
I'm sick of seeing the right-wing's tired old, sacred myth that "American's
pay less taxes." It's total BS. While this isn't targeted directly at the
poster, since you seem pretty open to figuring out the truth, but the hint of
this myth is there.

Why is it that everyone who trots out this myth feels like they can ignore the
"non-tax" taxes of FICA(social security & medicare)?

If you add in what you pay to FICA(social security & medicaid), and also add
in the out of pocket expenses you bear for your own health care, now the
average American's tax burden is not only almost identical to most of Europe,
but is probably a tiny bit higher. Around ~50% or so.

The US federal gov't sure as hell benefits by having half the voting
population(Republicans) believe this myth. It's just deceptive accounting
semantics—make everyone pay something, but don't call it a "tax", voila, now
you can claim to have far lower taxes than any other G8 nations! But it's a
lie.

I think most Americans are plain fools when it comes to taxes. No wonder the
gov't is able to spend $0.53 of every tax dollar on war and killing poor, non-
white human beings, and NOT have riots in the streets, or their greatest
existential fear: a mass scale tax "protest" movement. And don't even get me
started on how stupid everyone is for the annual tax season "refund"
rigmarole. What kind of idiots(other than our insolvent banks) give the
Federal gov't an interest free micro-loan over a year?

~~~
wallflower
40%

[http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTa...](http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTaxRate40.aspx)

------
watmough
So, hypothetically, wage parity might be achieved by Chinese workers making 5
- 7x more than they do now, whilst American worker would make 5 - 7x _less_.

Obviously prices in the US for healthcare, food and housing need to come down
somewhat.

~~~
lsc
I think what we see is a (hopefully temporary) situation where there are
people so poor that they are willing to work cheaper than machines. Because
Americans are not going to go back to doing that work, it's not really a
situation where Chinese labour is competing against American labour. the
Chinese labour is competing against American /machines/

~~~
watmough
Chinese labor is competing and slaughtering the US machines.

There was a story on feats of Chinese manufacturing on YC not long ago,
showing a guy sewing Chumby covers in 4 seconds flat. No machine could do
that.

If you go look at HobbyCity, there are 30 gram brushless motors that are
efficient, and can suck down 9 amps. Great for powering foamies, and most
likely built and wound by hand. Cost $9 and up.

It's hard to conceive of an America that could perform such feats. It's been
and gone.

I don't know if wage pressures will push wages up in China, but I do know
there are a lot of qualified people unemployed, and plenty of unemployed
unqualified people, and a government that needs to steer away from a housing
and stocks bubble.

I'm not expecting this to be temporary, much as I wish life for the Chinese
workers could improve.

Disclaimer: Typed on an iMac (Made in China), Mitsumi/Apple Bluetooth Keyboard
(Made in China), MS Mouse (Made in China).

~~~
lsc
"Chinese labor is competing and slaughtering the US machines."

Sure, on the things that humans do better than robots, like sewing chumbies.
My understanding is that china imports a whole lot of manufactured parts
(computer chips, etc..) does the final assembly step (the one where humans can
compete with machines) and exports the result. Some people say that much of
our trade imbalance with china should be re-assigned to other countries that
sell the chips to china, where they are assembled into a final product and
sold to the US.

For example, I'm typing this on a Lenovo brand thinkpad; It was Assembled in
China by a Chinese company.

But, the CPU is made by intel (and nearly all Intel fabs are in the first
world, many of them in the US.) and the ram and SSD is made in Korea. The LCD
was also made in Korea. I haven't taken apart the battery assembly (which was
assembled in china) but it would not surprise me at all if the Lithium Ion
cells and the controller chips were made in Japan. It seems to me, then, that
most of what I paid for my Lenovo was not actually being paid to China; China
was just the cheapest place to aggregate and assemble all the components.

As time goes on, there will be more and more things a machine can do better
than a human can; that is why I don't think it's a problem for the US that
china has dramatically lower prices for rote labour. You can't get a high
school student to hand-craft a microchip, no matter how hard you work them.

The other thing about China is that there is a huge gap between unskilled work
and skilled work. Much larger than here. I mean, here, there is maybe a
10x-20x (give or take) difference between the hourly rates of our lowest-
skilled workers and our highest skilled workers (I mean, if you discount
managers.) In China, this difference is much greater; The very skilled workers
are paid at almost 1/3-1/2 global parity. I'm helping a Chinese friend set up
a hosting company in China, and he tells me that he's going to need to pay
close to the equivalent of USD$40K a year for a good software engineer. (I
mean, someone with a masters or better.) I mean, that's a lot less than US
rates, but it's not pennies. Hell, It's slightly more than I paid myself last
year.

~~~
wallflower
> For example, I'm typing this on a Lenovo brand thinkpad; It was Assembled in
> China by a Chinese company.

Can we make an argument that Walmart is a middleman between China and American
consumers?

"Everyday, Low, Low Prices"

------
jlmendez
Off topic: Interesting that all the stories so far talk about mothers in
sweatshops. Not single one here mentions a father. Were they working in the
fields while women in the sweatshops?

------
gluu
I thought this was going to be about grad student life

------
jpcx01
That about sums it up for me too. Well maybe not the prisoner part, my
situation is purely of free choice.

------
zackattack
What sucks is that when human workers are interchangeably minimally skilled
commodities, management has no incentive to create a more humanized work
environment: it causes no variation in output.

------
dnsworks
Is this supposed to be surprising? Globalized manufacturing is a zero-sum race
to the bottom where only share-holders win. Everybody else becomes slaves when
"contracting out to the lowest bidder" means "hiring the cruelest whipmaster".

~~~
eru
It's is definitely not a zero-sum game. I can demonstrate this by destroying
some value, if you'd like. (Demonstrating that the the sum can go up is a bit
more difficult, since you need to actually do something worthwhile.)

------
Agile_Cyborg
They are only low-class minions who should be lucky their carcasses aren't
rotting in the hot sun from starvation.

There will be countless others to fill the positions of the broken, lazy,
despondent, and worthless who've tottered on to other production facilities.

Since when has this level of human deserved even a cursory notice, much less
an in-depth ethical analysis of how they labor?

