
Prolonged Partial Sleep Deprivation for a Job (The worst year of my life [so far]) - sleepy
Sorry that this is so long, but, I need advice.<p>I've included a TL;DR version at the bottom.<p>I'm 25 and I have delayed sleep phase syndrome.  Depending on the individual it manifests differently, in my case it presents as a natural tendency to go to sleep each night about two hours later than the night before (8:00 PM -&#62; 10:00 PM -&#62; 12:00 PM) sleeping for 8.5-9 hours.<p>I've been this way since infancy.  In high school it was difficult, in college it was manageable, while working it was unbearable.<p>Five months ago I left my first job of out college.<p>I had interned for the previous two summers and was essentially told by HR that I was obligated to comeback full-time.  More than that, I wanted to comeback.  Up until that point I had an extremely flexible schedule.  As an intern I had a loose schedule, typically working more than 40 hours each week, and they were happy enough with me to offer a full-time position.<p>All of my life I was terrified that my sleep was going to make consistent employment impossible.  I was thrilled to have found a job that paid extremely well and allowed for a flexible schedule.  My confidence soared.  In the three years since first interning I've contributed over 30 KLOC to various open source projects, traveled, and generally lived without fear.<p>When I started full-time, everything changed.<p>For the first three months it wasn't terrible.  I would usually arrive between 6:00 AM and 10:00 AM, netting between 4-5 hours of sleep on a typical week night.  After the first three months I was exhausted.  I talked to the President, telling him that I was exhausted and that I needed a change.  I was largely ignored.  I would take sick days to catch up on sleep.<p>Six months of this and I was out of my head tired and my performance was slipping.  On Friday / Saturday nights I would sleep 12-16 hours and go to the office or work from home during the weekends just to keep up.  People started to call me a zombie.  I stopped reading, visiting family and friends, and watching tv or movies.  I would go home after work each night and just wait for sleep.  I stopped existing.<p>I requested two weeks of unpaid leave, and essentially slept through the first six days.  After that I tried to catch up on some open source work.  By the end of the two weeks I was wracked with anxiety, terrified to go back to the way things were, but, I did.<p>The president asked me to see a doctor, and I scheduled an appointment for after the holidays.  6.5 months in, our daily developer meeting was moved to 8:45 AM (from 1:00 PM) and arrival time / meeting attendance was now  being monitored.  I actually started getting less sleep that I was before, 3-5 hours a night.<p>I offered to quit, twice.  Three months into employment, and about seven months in.  If thing weren't going to change I was eager to leave.  I stayed because I earnestly believed that they were going to work with me.  The president actually said to me:  "You have a number of years ahead of you, let's find out if there's something wrong."  This statement more than any other made what came next seem like a cruel jape.<p>Now seven months into my little experiment with prolonged partial sleep deprivation I had my results back from my sleep doctor.  I was diagnosed with delayed sleep phase syndrome.  A polysomnogram (PSG) was performed and no easily correctible physical reason was found for my sleep condition (restless legs, sleep apnea, etc.)  Sleeping pills were largely ineffective.<p>The next week I had a series of conversations with my direct report and the president of the company.  Giving them the results of my PSG, and the diagnosis I requested a schedule change, any schedule change.<p>I was asked:  "What would happen if we don't change your schedule?"<p>I replied that: "I would have to quit."<p>Sometime later my direct report came back to my office and said:  "We're not going to fire you, as long as you come in on time, as you have been doing.  But, we will not be changing your schedule."<p>I had a lease for another three months and my girlfriend of 8 years (seriously, we had been together since we were 16) had just left me because I was exhausted and working all of the time.<p>I asked for some time to think about it, eventually telling them that I would have to quit, but, that I would give them my notice two weeks before my lease was up.<p>I asked if I could have a schedule change to make the next three months a bit easier.  The request was denied.<p>I spent the next three months exhausted and in a state of shock.<p>About three weeks before I was scheduled to quit, my direct report actually asked for my notice.  While giving my notice I practically begged for my job.  I, again, asked for any kind of schedule change of any kind. Even offering to move to a part-time position.<p>I was exhausted and afraid for my job every single day for a year.  Ostensibly, this was a fun place to work, video games, snacks, etc.  I just couldn't enjoy it on so little sleep<p>I've spent the last five months living with family and have now decided to reenter academia terrified by the though of living through this again.  I'm actually afraid to get another job.<p>TL;DR Version:<p>Does anyone else here have a sleep condition?  
How do you deal with it?  
How do you live?
Where do you work?
Any advice?<p>I know nothing about contracting, or how to go about starting my own company, but, I see these as my only options.
======
ars
I have DSPS as well and regular employment is impossible. I do consulting from
home. It's not perfect, clients don't like to have to deal with my schedule,
but it works.

So that's what I would tell you: forget about regular employment and find
consulting/contracting jobs.

Oh, and I don't know the details obviously, but try to get back with your
girlfriend - 8 years - you have a chance I think, she almost certainly misses
you too. Show her this thread maybe :)

DSPS is not cureable. It can sometimes be managed with a lot of work, but
realistically it rarely succeeds. You have it, so you have to manage your
employment to work with it.

You're lucky to be a programmer. In the olden days I guess you would be a
craftsman.

If you need a place to start, use one of those online sites where you bid on
work - the pay is lousy, but maybe you'll find a decent client, or referrals.

Also small businesses are always looking for contractors - they like it
because they don't have to deal with payroll, or even an office. Start local -
just walk up main street and poke your nose in each building. Leave a card.
(Well I don't know what you do exactly - but I assume you can change if you
have to, to match what small businesses are looking for.)

~~~
lsc
those online sites where you bid for work? e-lance and guru.com? they are
about the worst place I can think of to look for contract work. Craigslist.
Seriously. <http://sfbay.craigslist.org/cpg> I don't care if you are in the
bay area or not. you get plenty of 'work from home' gigs there (and most of
'em are posted in the san francisco craigslist even if the client is in New
York.)

Oh, and another thing; if you do get an on-site contracting gig (this is how I
pay for my business) remember that most on-site contractors are basically
people who were not skilled enough to get the job full-time. If you are
shockingly better than the other contractors on the team, they often put up
with a less-reliable schedule. Oh, and developing a reputation for honesty on
your timesheets is also recommended. The body shop is going to want you to
just put all eights, but if you are good, and the client notices that you are
good (and that you are honest on your timesheets) they will go to bat for you.
You may technically work for the body shop, but the only people you really
need to like you is the client.

(If you can contract without a body shop and still get a good rate, shoot me
an e-mail and explain how that works.)

~~~
lief79
If there is a response to the body shop question, rather than just share it
with lsc, please post it for all.

------
swombat
Force yourself to get up at a constant hour (e.g. 7am) and go to bed at a
constant hour (e.g. 11pm for 8 hours of sleep) every day even if you're not
tired.

Don't go out clubbing/drinking/etc for a few weeks until you have this sorted
out.

I have the same delayed sleep pattern, but this works fine, sure-fire, every
time.

Another few tips:

1) Stop staring at computer monitors for about 1 hour before sleep-time

2) Try reading a not-too-exciting fiction book for 30 minutes before sleep-
time (That's from 10:30, not from 11). Big classics (Dickens, Tolstoy, etc) do
well for this.

3) Don't do anything in bed other than prepare to sleep and sleep.

I can guarantee that you'll start feeling really tired around 10:30 and fall
asleep like a baby by 11:15 within 2 weeks - probably even faster.

Just make sure you stick to those times as if your life depended on them. In
bed by 11, out of bed at 7.

~~~
Deadsunrise
I don't have any sleep disorder and never really paid much attention to the
duration of my sleep or the time to go to bed. After watching this video
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8> ( Dr. William Dement on Healthy
Sleep and Optimal Perfomance ) I'm going to bed at 11 and waking at 7 with
excelent results.

~~~
swombat
Hmm, the video looks interesting, but it's quite boringly executed :-(

Is there a summary of the points in this talk somewhere?

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
_the video looks interesting, but it's quite boringly executed :-(_

Well, it _is_ intended to help you fall asleep...

------
neilk
You're lucky to be a hacker. There's almost no other profession more suited to
unusual sleep schedules. The place where you were working sounds very anti-
hacker. You'll have to find a better place. It will not be as hard as you
think, just be up-front about your condition.

I have a co-worker who prefers to work on a 28-hour schedule. (I don't think
he has a sleep disorder, he just decided he liked it.) His office hours are
unpredictable, but he gets his work done and nobody cares.

There's even another team on this floor that's adopted a "results-only"
management style, which means that people are discouraged from insisting on
things like office hours. Those people are practically never even in the
office.

I don't think it's absolutely required that you be a contractor, and in lots
of places contractors have even less leverage than regular employees in
defining the terms of their work. But if you go this route it's not
particularly hard either. Just say you are one, print business cards, get a
job in the normal way, and then cash their checks. Maintain your own computer
equipment and count the depreciation as an expense. Charge more than you would
make in wages to make up for the lack of job security. You don't even need to
incorporate, or even talk to a lawyer, although this is sometimes advantageous
once you're really raking it in.

If you happened to be offshore, your sleep disorder might even be an
advantage, since every few weeks you'd be in sync with headquarters. I assume
you are in the USA? Maybe you should consider moving to Australia or
something.

P.S. It sounds like you've managed before? Management of offshore operations
is one of those things that corporations constantly struggle with. So if you
were cycling in and out of both time zones, that might be a real advantage.

------
mattchew
My sympathies on your sleep disorder.

To me, your biggest _solvable_ problem is learning to stand up for yourself.

You are telling a story about your sleep phase syndrome, but I am reading a
story about how you were bullied by people who picked up on your fear and
anxiety. That's something you can fix.

It may be difficult to find a job that works with your unusual schedule. You
should be honest with prospective employers before you take any position.
Everyone should understand what they're getting into. But once you are hired,
you need to take care of your health. Walk out the door when it is time to go.
Don't justify yourself or be apologetic. You already know how that ends up.
Your managers and coworkers _will_ adjust if you stand up for yourself.

Of course, starting your own company is good too. :)

Good luck.

------
jakattack
"delayed sleep phase syndrome", so that's what its called! I didn't realize it
had a name or was even a condition. I've had this for all my life it seems.
How did I deal with it? For starters I was able to negotiate a better deal
with my workplace and I figured out other ways to deal as well, email me at
janak at kahoots dot biz and I'll tell you more about my experiences.

~~~
drewcrawford
I had the exact same reaction. I seem to operate on 20-22 hour waking cycles,
been that way all my life... Nice to give it a name.

------
Tichy
"While giving my notice I practically begged for my job"

Why on earth would you do that, after the way they treated you??? Seriously, I
don't get it. Get some self-respect! Next time something like this happens to
you, quit sooner (like before your girl-friend leaves you).

I don't have a condition that is as severe as yours (I think), but
essentially, my sleep is so irregular that I have also suffered in any 9 to 5
job I had so far. I even admit that sometimes this makes me anxious (because
the normal career path is not open to me), but on the other hand, I simply
realize that a 9 to 5 office job is not for me, and I have to look for
alternatives. As a programmer, you can get by doing contract work from home.
Get a spec, deliver a couple of weeks later - at your own sleep schedule.

I am not a doctor, but I don't think you can expect to live a normal life with
your condition. But it is not so bad either - office jobs suck anyway.

Even with jobs where developers where allowed to come in as late as 12pm
initially, sooner or later the issue of my schedule would always arise. A
couple of weeks in, suddenly the company policy would change and people were
expected to be in the office by 9am. So I really can not encourage you to keep
looking for that understanding company that adjusts to your problems (not
saying that there aren't any, just that I wouldn't count on it).

------
JoelSutherland
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting
different results.

You've got a serious problem, so make a serious change. You're not working for
minimum wage so your job isn't necessary for survival.

------
davo11
I don't think it's that unusual, I remember reading somewhere the average
circadian cycle for most people is a 25 hour day, that's what mine seems to
be. If I let myself I stay up an hour later each night. I usually work up a
sleep deficit during the week and catch up on the weekend.

Try the tricks recommended for insomniacs and see if they help, avoid caffeine
and alcohol, particularly at night. Only go to bed to sleep, not watching TV.
Try getting natural light in the morning to wake up when the sun is coming up.

Try working somewhere else, I've been a programmer for more than 20 years and
can't remember when anyone said I had to get in at 9.00 am or whatever, and
most developers I've worked with are the same. Become a DBA or administrator
working wierd hours is part of the job. 'luck

------
spolsky
I'm pretty sure you're covered under the ADA. If this company has an HR
department, one of their jobs is to protect the company from ADA lawsuits. If
you really want to keep working for this company, talk to HR and make sure
they understand that as far as you're concerned, you're being fired for a
disability that the company refused to accomodate. It doesn't even matter what
a court would say ... a good HR department is not going to want to find out.
They're going to find a way to accomodate your schedule.

That said, there are enough good bosses out there who would love to have a
good programmer, even on an unusual schedule. I guarantee you'll be able to
find one if you spend a little bit of time looking around.

------
a2dam
I have this exact condition and am in a very similar boat. Two things helped
me a great deal: medication and training. The training I am sure you've heard
before, and if it worked by itself you wouldn't have this problem. I've found
that a combination of Provigil (an anti-narcolepsy drug) and Strattera (a non-
stimulant ADD drug that has the side effect of early awakening) helps a
tremendous amount. Throw in some Ambien once or twice a week, and I'm able to
edit my sleep cycle to be much more in line with normal work hours.

There are those who say this is excessive. Those people obviously do not face
what you and I do.

------
sethg
What everyone else said.

Also, it seems to me that if the only thing keeping you from doing your job
was conflict between the requirement to show up at a certain hour and your
sleep disorder, then (in the US) the employer was violating the Americans with
Disabilities Act by not accommodating your condition.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
here, here. you should seek counsel and find a new job.

------
sokoloff
(I originally tried to keep this short. Epic fail.)

I don't want to sound unsympathetic, as you seem to have an actual medical
condition that's substantially impacting your life. At the same time, I want
to point out a few things that really struck me reading your post, as I don't
think mindless sympathy is the ideal approach to helping others. (Asperger's
has its upside, too... :) )

"essentially told by HR that I was obligated to comeback full-time"

BS! Indentured servitude has long ago been outlawed in the US, and while my
company generally tries hard to get our good interns to come back full-time,
HR doesn't phrase it as an obligation.

"my girlfriend of 8 years (seriously, we had been together since we were 16)
had just left me because I was exhausted and working all of the time"

There's an awful lot of relationship "turbulence" in the mid-20s, and it's
awfully hard to pin a breakup to a specific root cause, especially when it's
fairly vague.

"I'm actually afraid to get another job."

Why? For a good coder, they're everywhere, easy to get, and pretty handy for
paying the bills.

There's an substantial chance that your prior employer is just a grind 'em up
and spit 'em out crappy employer, though it's hard to say from only hearing
your side. But if it really was "your employer's fault", then getting another
one has a substantial chance of fixing a large part of what you are
complaining about. (And if it was really "your fault" (see below), getting
another one gets you that one step closer to figuring that out too, so that
you can change that.)

I'd offer a couple pieces of advice:

1\. Take responsibility for choosing your own path. Don't let HR tell you
you're obligated to come back. Don't work for crappy employers.

2\. Don't "double down" on your limitations. Given that you have a legitimate
medical condition, don't tie other aspects of your life to that condition.
Don't blame a failed relationship on it, etc; otherwise, you're liable to fall
into a victim mentality, which regardless of whether or not there is a true
linkage, doesn't help you to make thoughtful choices in your life.

3\. There are plenty of employers out there for good hackers, and I've worked
with people with far more messed up sleep/work schedules than you, and I'd
hire (some of) those people with nothing more than a phone call telling me
they were available.

If hacking is the one thing you love doing, do that. Going to academia, or
anything other than hacking, is a cop-out.

Go get another job hacking, and if that doesn't work out, go get another job
hacking, and repeat until you find one that makes you mutually happy. If you
get to 4 or 5 and find that you're still "0 for", then think about whether
there are other root causes, and whether you bear more responsibility for some
of your challenges than you are currently admitting to.

You need more data. You came to HN asking for it. IMO, you really need more
data about YOU and how YOU will handle your life responsibilities, and while
you can ask HN how people here handle their lives, ultimately, it's going to
be a lot more productive to find YOUR answers in YOUR mirror.

~~~
sleepy
>>"essentially told by HR that I was obligated to comeback full-time"

"BS! Indentured servitude has long ago been outlawed in the US, and while my
company generally tries hard to get our good interns to come back full-time,
HR doesn't phrase it as an obligation."

I'm sorry, but, you left out the most important part of that quote: "More than
that, I wanted to comeback."

She was joking! I only included her statement to show that they were seemingly
excited to have me return! The truth is, I appreciated the opportunity and
felt a great sense of loyalty to the people at the company. I wanted to help.

I don't see loyalty as a flaw, nor was I blinded by it. Remember, the
president actually said to me: "You have a number of years ahead of you, let's
find out if there's something wrong."

If nothing was going to change, I was ready to walk out the door without so
much as a word. I didn't seed my will, I simply wanted to believe what I was
being dealt with honestly. I had a number of great offers in Boston, Austin,
and San Francisco that I turned down to give this company a chance to work
things out with me.

"There's an awful lot of relationship "turbulence" in the mid-20s, and it's
awfully hard to pin a breakup to a specific root cause, especially when it's
fairly vague."

Very true. We had been in a semi-long distance relationship for six years (90
miles while we were undergrad, then 180, when she went to law school.) When I
stared working through the weekends or sleeping through my weekends with her,
it put an obvious strain on our relationship.

"Going to academia, or anything other than hacking, is a cop-out."

I agree completely. Going back to school feels wrong on a number of levels.

"Go get another job hacking, and if that doesn't work out, go get another job
hacking, and repeat until you find one that makes you mutually happy. If you
get to 4 or 5 and find that you're still "0 for", then think about whether
there are other root causes, and whether you bear more responsibility for some
of your challenges than you are currently admitting to."

Considering that I was hired after two internships, they knew me, and that I
had some ability to perform. After a year w\o sleep, a bad breakup, and moving
across the country, all within a three month period, my confidence is rather
shaken. I would rather not take another job and waste the time of my new
employers, and bruise what's left of my ego while I grapple with existential
dread. I probably need to get back on the FOSS horse.

I don't think of myself as a victim. I simply feel that I was lied to and
don't fully understand why. Well, perhaps I do. The people involved simply
didn't care. If they wanted me gone, they could have taken me up on my offers,
or, as it was an at will work state, they could have fired me without
explanation. The fact that they drug this out for over nine months and left me
with extremely high medical bills when they knew that nothing was going to
change seems cruel, and has apparently left them open to legal action.

I didn't know that I was entitled to a reasonable accommodation. Hell, I
didn't even know what a reasonable accommodation was!

If nothing else this experience has taught me a lot. Unfortunately the price
was much higher than I would have liked to pay.

------
seshagiric
I am insomniac so can sympathize with your condition a bit. It is gonna help a
lot that medical help has categorized your condition...lot better than not
knowing it but not being able to manage it either.

Coming to the work problem, you could do three things: 1\. find another job
2\. consultant 3\. run own business

1\. There are a lot of companies out there (especially in software industry)
that can provide a better work environment. I know for sure Microsoft does
offer, and I guess Google also does it.

Make a list of companies you would like to work at, and go through the
interview process. It is your choice to tell them about the situation before
the interviews, but do take it up once they make an offer. Don't worry they
will surely accommodate.

2\. Consulting You can work from home and in your timings, but the key to be a
successful consultancy work is lot of contacts and proven successful
deliveries - so the initial days will be very tough. The more projects you
deliver, the better it gets.

3\. Own business May be just drop an application in the next YCombinator
season :) I know its tough but may be something can be worked out, considering
the choice of a good co-founder.

Additional tips: 1\. considering the dull market scene, if any of the above
does not work, you might want to consider going to grad school. Your
experience and previous academics might get you a scholarship.

2\. some companies offer job sharing where one job is shared by two people
(each paid accordingly). They are mainly for administrative jobs but who
knows.

All the best.

------
guruz
Seriously, you are an idiot for not having left that company a lot earlier.
Ignore that stupid company, really. I suppose there are places to work (or
freelancing?) that fit you better.

Anyway, good luck, you can succeed :)

~~~
notphilatall
Agreed. My first thought reading this was "what kind of horrid company has
daily developer meetings at 8:45 AM?"

------
lutorm
Like many others have said, I'm not sure you _want_ to stay with that company.
But it seems that if this is a diagnosed disorder and your doctor can certify
that this "impacts a major life function" then the Americans with Disabilities
Act may be on your side and the company would be obligated to supply
"reasonable accommodations" for your disability. I briefly flirted with
disability as a result of my RSI, but the rules are complex and I probably
know about enough to be dangerous, but it might be worth talking to your
doctor about.

------
ibsulon
The good news is that some people's cases, like mine, mellow out as we grow
older. By the time you return from academia, it's quite possible that you'll
be more functional with the addition of draconian sleep hygene rules, morning
exercise, and light box therapy. (Note: I still revert to the default schedule
if left to my own devices, but I am much more able to function as a day person
now.)

I'm even able to stay up late on occasion now. I still can't function waking
up at 6am on a regular basis, but I'm surviving on a 12-8am sleep schedule.

~~~
ibsulon
I should mention a few more things:

1\. My father worked nights until he was in his fourties. He had a similar
problem, but was able to move to an earlier schedule.

2\. I can't say that I prefer waking up on an earlier schedule; I think I
still work better working in the evenings, but it's at least tolerable now.

3\. I should have stressed the exercise and light therapy, especially when you
don't have a schedule to keep. It won't solve all problems, but it does help.

------
VinzO
I read somewhere (but can't remember where) that people spending a lot of time
behind a monitor, can suffer from delayed sleep cycles. This is due to the
light emitted by the monitor. So probably as one said already, it could help
not watching at a monitor hours before sleep.

I found a lot of good informations about sleep on that link :
<http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm>

------
lsc
Not all employers are assholes about schedules. Find one that isn't.

You sound like you are pretty good. If you are pretty good, you should be able
to find a company that is willing to work around whatever weirdness you have.

I don't have a sleep disorder (or at least, haven't been diagnosed) but I am a
lazy fuck and have a hard time getting up at the same time every day.
everywhere I've worked they've put up with me showing up at noon pretty often.
(my favorite quote "I know I said we had a flexible schedule here, but I'm
going to have to put my foot down and ask you to show up by noon") I mean, I
can't show up at noon every day, but if I get there by 10:00 for most of the
week, they usually forgive me showing up at 13:00 one day. I've never been
fired for being late.

Oh, yeah, the trick to this? most of those places really did want me to show
up on time. However, they wanted my work done even more. I can force myself
awake at the same time every day (It's easy enough, I just keep a bowl of no-
doz by the alarm, and eat one every time I hit the snooze) but I'm a zombie.
So yeah, when they start giving me shit about showing up on time, I put in
effort for a week or two, but at that point my performance starts falling, so
I start showing up late again, and they are usually glad enough to see results
that they are OK with my tardiness for a while.

Many employers (myself included) will let you work from home, when you want
to. (Of course, many of us do this because we find that people are willing to
give you better work for less money, if you are willing to let them work when
and where they want to. When you give people a choice, they usually sell you
their most productive hours, which is awesome for the employer.)

------
kaens
While I've never been diagnosed, I suspect that I have something very similar,
or exactly the same as you do.

The only way I've gotten around it is by making the vast majority of my income
through freelance work, and by finding more permanent jobs that are willing to
take it into account, or that allow for telecommuting or don't really care
about schedules.

------
LogicHoleFlaw
I can definitely sympathize with your situation. I suffer from DSPS and a
melatonin deficiency which makes it impossible to sleep without nightly doses
of Rozerem, which is a synthesized melatonin. My sleep difficulties did not
manifest until age 17, and made the next 6 years miserable until I spoke to a
doctor who realized what was going on.

An earlier Ask HN talked about overcoming poor sleep:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=205153> I have a post in that topic which
details a lot of my experiences with sleeping difficulties.

There is some great information on basic sleep hygiene in today's Ask HN which
covers the basics. It's great that you had a PSG performed. Ruling out Sleep
Apnea and RLS is a great start for finding out what _is_ actually happening. I
know that I tried a half dozen sedative prescription sleeping medications
which did absolutely nothing for me before trying the Rozerem. Rozerem is not
a sedative but a synthesized hormone which binds to your melatonin receptors.
Melatonin is key in regulating the sleep/wake cycle and a melatonin deficiency
can contribute to DSPS. Talk to your doctor and see if that might be a factor
for you.

I have a 25-26 hour natural rhythm which does not follow the daily 24-hour
cycle and which makes the corporate standard 9-6 hours difficult. The only
time I've really synced up with the sun has been when I am doing long-term
backpacking trips and getting massive amounts of sunlight. In an artificially
lit indoor world I just don't match that cycle. I have however been in my
current employment on the 9-6 schedule for two years now, which feels like a
milestone to me. I should note that while I have maintained that schedule, I
do feel that my most creative output has been diminished in the process. At
the current time I've decided to accept that limitation while I save money to
bootstrap a startup. I'm not convinced that a standard corporate job is
impossible for someone in our situation, but it is definitely difficult and
there is significant effort required. Self-discipline is critical if that is
your goal. However, self-discipline is not sufficient if there is an
exacerbating medical condition besides DSPS. I will freely admit that I have
not fully conformed to my ideal 11-7 sleeping schedule 7 days a week, but even
my somewhat sloppy adherence to sleep hygiene guidelines has made a large
difference in my life.

One important consideration when looking for a new job is what sorts of
scheduling responsibilities you will have. I for instance am miserable when I
am on active on call duty 24/7. Contracting or consulting work with delivery-
based responsibilities may be an option for you. I have not tried it yet.

Man I feel weird writing this next bit because I haven't yet fully overcome
similar struggles in my own life. But here goes. You made a good call to stay
with family while you've been dealing with the fallout of all this. Familial
support can make a huge difference. It sounds like you are suffering from
depression or anxiety - it would probably be productive to talk to guidance
counselor, therapist, or psychiatrist to see if there is some coping strategy
to use in the short to medium term while you get back on your feet. This would
be in addition to developing habits and strategies to deal with sleep
disorders. Going back into academics might be a good idea, but if you don't
learn to manage your DSPS you will continue to struggle there. It might only
prolong your anxiety about your job prospects. You need to decide what is most
important to you. Is it finding a way to maintain a standard schedule? Is it
finding a job where your employer is not concerned about a nonstandard one? Is
it going into consulting or contracting where pay is based on delivery rather
than physical presence? These are all valid choices.

I worked for a few months in a megacorporation. This was before I had found
out about the root causes of my sleeping difficulties. After my struggles with
sleeping disorders manifested as inability to maintain the mandated schedule I
was asked to leave. It was devastating to me. I was told that the quality of
my work was high, but that the need for a consistent schedule was more
important. That was the tipping point which convinced me to aggressively
pursue a method of attaining consistent sleep. As I mentioned, I've been in my
current job with the same schedule (and a longer commute!) for two years now,
so I feel that I've been mostly successful in that respect. For me, the next
step is to strike out on my own and go into business for myself. Your choices
are your own in that respect.

I wish you the best of luck. Know that your challenges are not insurmountable.
From your description of your accomplishments it sounds like you are capable
of doing great things, once you find a good environment and lifestyle. Don't
let your prior bad experiences keep you down permanently. Whatever you decide
to do, it will require discipline, calculated risks, and a willingness to go
outside the ordinary. That can be scary, but may just be worth it.

[Edit: _I think I may have just convinced myself to make some changes in my
life as I wrote this response...._ ]

~~~
bprater
Interesting. I was going to recommend taking melatonin to help regulate sleep.

I take melatonin (in it's natural form from the drug store) on a nearly
nightly basis, so that I can keep a regular schedule.

I have symptoms similar to DSPS, but not quite as severe and since learning
about melatonin, it's helped quite a bit in being more regular for the sake of
the rest of the world.

As folks have mentioned, contracting is great. That's what I do. You have the
freedom to work as you see fit, without the paranoia of the damn alarm clock.

G'luck friend!

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
The main advantage of Rozerem over natural melatonin is that the dosage and
quality are consistent. Since it's something I depend on I appreciate the
assurances I get from the FDA :)

------
strlen
Where are you geographically? In Silicon Valley only a few players (and they
are generally notorious for it) would require you to come in at 8:45.

You're also internalizing things that may have nothing to do with you: between
the ages of 18-25 jobs and relationship will often not work out for you - and
even if you are at fault, this is the best time to make mistakes.

(Your ex-gf is a human being just like you, with her own flaws and interests -
and different employers have their own HR policies, some of them bad some of
them good; and the "obligated to come back" is completely false.)

------
keefe
I used to be like this in graduate school. I started working out more and
more, treated with sleeping pills and now I sleep regularly between 10pm-2am
and I'm up 6am-10am. If I have meetings, sometimes I cope on 6 hours of sleep.
Have you tried really, truly beating your body into exhaustion after work 1-3
hours at a gym? Incidentally, that will help the gf problem as well (:

Otherwise, there are plenty of jobs that will let you have a bit of a flexible
schedule if you want. Many startups will let you work the hours you want if
you are hugely productive.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
One thing to watch out for with exercise and sleep deprivation is that the
body's ability to heal after a hard workout is greatly diminished. You have to
be careful not to injure yourself.

------
peanutsmum
if going to bed at the same time / getting up at the same times works, then
you're probably lucky to not have such an extreme disorder. I've tried this
and it doesn't work for me, the only solution has been to change my life so it
fits more around my condition. This is through a combination of - 1 part time
job, 1 teaching job and a number of freelance jobs. Freelancing is probably
your best option as you can work from home at hours that suit you, the best
way to get freelance work is via direct contacts, get yourself a linkedin
profile & your own website (if you don't already) and get networking. Most of
my freelance work comes from word of mouth, so make sure as many people as
possible know what you do & that you're available. Contracting is an option,
as you could deal with the sleep deprivation for a couple of months, then take
a couple of weeks off - there's loads of agencies about, just make sure you
'sell' yourself to them with a really great CV. Alternatively, do some
research and find a company that promotes more progressive working styles, I
worked at one small agency which allowed people to work from home if they
chose, or work shifts at the office that suited them. Don't give up hope, it's
not your fault you have this condition, and if workplaces' could be more
flexible it would be better for everyone that's currently excluded (i.e.
people with disabilities, single parents, etc).

------
orph
Hey listen, I know exactly how you feel.

Sleep issues have been a major factor in my life since the 3rd grade, where I
started to stay up too late every night and miss the bus in the morning.

My advice is to stop using a computer outside of work. Entirely. Remove
computers from your home. Stop carrying a laptop in your backpack.

I stayed up late at night hacking open source for a decade. I'm only now
accepting that my health hinges on not working on a software project in my
free time.

Just try it for a month. The world will not fall apart.

------
narag
I've suffered a mild version of this problem during a couple of periods. I
don't think it's the same as yours, that seems to be much stronger. Anyway, I
fixed it using some of the same advice that others have already told you and a
little more thing: light. A very strong light in my room at the time of
awakening helped A LOT. The light must touch the skin. You'll need some kind
of device to program it or someone to do it manually.

------
noonespecial
I've probably got it too. I've managed to arrange a schedule for myself that
cycles weekly so that I can predict my waking hours that works pretty well.

I tried a job at first but when it became clear that they were really buying
"butt-time" in a seat and that my schedule was simply set to whatever was
convenient for the boss, I had to strike out on my own.

I have not regretted it.

------
wheels
Same thing here, but even more erratic. When working a normal job (which I did
for 7 years before founding a company) the best strategy was to sleep 6 nights
a week. I almost always skipped sleep on Saturday night and would go to bed
Sunday afternoon as kind of a weekly reset.

------
biohacker42
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't everybody shift by half an hour a night?

------
RobGR
My advice:

1) Do some contract work, just to build some cash, networking, and confidence.
It can expose you to more different parts of the industry in 3 months than
working in a big corporation ever will.

    
    
       -- Search for gigs via personal contacts, craigslist, and then guru / scriptlance / rentacoder, in that order.  The gigs get progressively worse as you work down that.
    
       -- Although your former employer sounds like a shit place to work, and most people kind of glorify thier first real-world employer, feel free to hit them for contract work which YOU WILL DO FROM HOME.  Emphasis on that last part.  Charge them 3 times whatever your salary worked out to be previously; 2 times is standard, but if they fired you, stick it to them for 3.
    

2) There are plenty of places that hire coders with odd personal habits,
sometimes far in excess of odd work hours. Apply to different places and
mention your work hours in a cover letter. If you go through a couple of 1
month stands at places that don't work out, don't feel bad, you don't have to
mention an employment period that short on your resume.

3) What do you actually expect to be that different about academia ? You can't
be a student forever, so at some point you will be the equivalent of a
freelancer in academia -- you will set your own hours, but your income will be
largely determined by the grants you can pull in or what you produce for your
professor. There are academic employers that can be as obnoxious about meeting
times and etc as companies are, although they are less common. Finally, you
are likely to embedded in a giant bureaucratic institution with many of the
disadvantages of that, but lacking the security that traditionally comes from
working in a really big corporation.

In reality, the age of big institutions is over -- if you work for a giant
corporation, you still have to constantly re-apply for your job and fight for
health care and have a substantial possibility of getting laid off because
some MBA invested in CDOs. We are all freelancers now, but only some people
realize it. That's a different post.

As a final observation, I would say that you seem to be pretty down
emotionally right now, and even mild depression is often associated with weird
sleep patterns. Consider the possibility that when your life doesn't suck as
much, your sleep problems might be more manageable even if they are still
there.

I would make a fairly simple list of goals, such as "this month I will make
$300 from contracting on craigslist" and "this week I will apply to 5
companies that sound exciting" and try to hit them in a fairly disciplined way
every day, even if "every day" means "every night". If you start hitting a few
goals, you can at least build some forward momentum.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
_We are all freelancers now, but only some people realize it. That's a
different post._

I am very interested in reading this post sometime.

------
PaulAJ
It depends on where you are, but many jurisdictions have laws about reasonable
accomodation for diagnosed illnesses. See a lawyer.

------
bayareaguy
I don't believe I suffer from anything this serious but a good day of outdoor
exercise does wonders for my sleep schedule.

------
markessien
To contract, make your website, advertise what you do and start emailing
people. Could not be easier.

------
yesimahuman
Just curious...have you ever tried marijuana? Did it affect your sleeping?

