
Google redraws the borders on maps depending on who’s looking - axiosgunnar
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/02/14/google-maps-political-borders/
======
lukeqsee
While this sounds bad, this is quite normal and expected by any multi-national
corporation using a map service. Companies don’t get to choose the favored
boundaries when doing business in Russia or China, given having the wrong
lines can result in legal issues or even expulsion from the market.

Is this good for a freer world? Perhaps not. Is this better for everyone’s
bottom lines? Most definitely.

Source: I run a map company. (For now, we default to the boundaries as defined
in OSM and include the data regarding disputed boundaries, which can by styled
our customers as they wish.)

Addendum: Google _is_ one of those multi-national companies. If they choose to
only display the lines as the UN would draw them, they would not have a market
in many countries.

------
amingilani
As a Pakistani, I thought this was common knowledge. When Google Maps hosted
localized maps on country-specific domains, Pakistanis found the Indian
version on the .co.in domain and it was a whole thing [1]. Pakistan's even
complained to the World Bank for a map of the country that excluded Gilgit-
Baltistan and Kashmir during a (literally one) book launch. Some Governments,
especially my own, feel slighted at the smallest of things—you don't want to
get on their bad side if you're trying to do business with them.

By the way, if you want the official map of Pakistan, it's released by the
Survey of Pakistan here[2].

Edit: I want to point out that Pakistan literally bans any website
arbitrarily. YouTube was banned for three years in Pakistan[3], and social
media websites have been banned many times in the past including (ostensibly)
to chill coverage of protests[4]. It isn't too far-fetched to imagine a
Pakistan without Google Maps if Google doesn't play nice.

[0]: [https://tribune.com.pk/story/1163447/google-maps-shows-
azad-...](https://tribune.com.pk/story/1163447/google-maps-shows-azad-kashmir-
indian-territory-latest-gaffe/)

[1]: [https://tribune.com.pk/story/1262447/pakistan-protest-
world-...](https://tribune.com.pk/story/1262447/pakistan-protest-world-banks-
incorrect-map/)

[2]:
[http://www.surveyofpakistan.gov.pk/images/downloads/pak3m.pd...](http://www.surveyofpakistan.gov.pk/images/downloads/pak3m.pdf)

[3]: [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-
youtube/pakistan...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-
youtube/pakistan-lifts-ban-on-youtube-after-launch-of-local-version-
idUSKCN0UW1ER)

[4]: [https://digitalrightsfoundation.pk/press-release-drf-and-
net...](https://digitalrightsfoundation.pk/press-release-drf-and-netblocks-
find-blanket-and-nation-wide-ban-on-social-media-in-pakistan-and-demand-it-to-
be-lifted-immediately/)

~~~
tantalor
It is common knowledge. Here's a video that goes into more detail:
[https://youtu.be/P_UVPTdjxC0](https://youtu.be/P_UVPTdjxC0)

------
ajaimk
While I do work for Google, this is just standard practice for any map maker
since they are required to follow local laws. I find this article to be
incendiary singling out a single company and acting as if they are doing this
with bad intent which is not the case here.

~~~
Carpetsmoker
I don't know if this is accurate, but the article implies that printed maps
don't do this kind stuff, or at least less so (e.g. "We try to show as much
information as we can, when we can, to help people understand what's going on
in a part of the world").

I don't know how Google maps compares to other online maps.

> as if they are doing this with bad intent

I didn't really read any implications of "bad intent" here, but rather
indifference or callousness regarding these issues.

~~~
kroltan
Printed maps are printed _somewhere_, and have to follow that where's laws.
Naturally, a (for example) US-printed map can draw foreign disputed borders as
disputed or either side's.

Now, if that same map was to be distributed in one of the disputing countries,
that's another story, and even representing disputedness can be illegal.

Since Google wants to distribute their maps globally, they can either show the
"correct" maps, or block access from people in countries with disputed
borders. Their business model being what it is, they chose to redraw maps when
necessary.

~~~
ithkuil
I've seen printed maps of Greece which had an actual label with the word
"FYROM" layered on top of the neighboring country if Macedonia. The map was
obviously printed outside of Greece

------
notatoad
Imagine if google _didn 't_ do this... How much outrage would there be when
google made a decision over where to draw the border?

I can't think of any circumstance where i want a multinational corporation to
be making decisions about where disputed borders are drawn.

------
gioele
Once we are done talking about country borders, let's talk about flags.

Red Hat/Fedora "no flags" policy:
[https://lwn.net/Articles/333623/](https://lwn.net/Articles/333623/)

Resignation of an important Debian kernel maintainer because a flag of Taiwan
is included in a Debian package:
[https://lwn.net/Articles/86925/](https://lwn.net/Articles/86925/)
[https://lwn.net/Articles/86923/](https://lwn.net/Articles/86923/)

~~~
Lammy
That resignation is hilarious. GPL extremism is tolerable but a Taiwanese flag
was "too much". Good riddance.

------
kartayyar
This happens with all american books with maps in India too - it isn't a
Google problem. It's a government problem.

I don't think this article has good reporting, because it suggests that the
company has some hidden agenda, when really all it's doing is complying with
local laws.

~~~
smitty1e
It's neither a Google not a governmental problem. It is fundamentally a
_people_ problem, and unlikely to change as long as anyone draws breath.

------
virtualritz
This is /very/ old news. Maybe not even news. It's the norm since maps
depicting administrative areas of some sort exist.

And there is no difference even. In the past you could take a paper map drawn
by A and showing a disputed border between A & B to B and show them.

Nowadays you can spoof your GPS and/or IP to purport you are at A (although
your are at B) and see the map people at A are commonly shown.

------
rrll22
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21648633](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21648633)

------
ygra
Microsoft chooses to display a border as disputed, which I guess is more
honest here than selling different borders to both sides.

~~~
the-rc
Bing, too, follows local laws that could otherwise get people arrested. At
some point they didn't even show the Kashmir border as disputed:
[https://splinternews.com/how-airbnb-google-and-microsoft-
vie...](https://splinternews.com/how-airbnb-google-and-microsoft-view-
disputed-territo-1793854681)

The whole situation, managing border depictions worldwide, is a rathole. You
just can't win.

~~~
lukeqsee
> You just can't win.

This, in a nutshell. Some border disputes are straightforward, and choosing
one depiction over the other could be considered ethically better than
choosing the other depiction. Other disputes are intractable without just
displaying based on the worldview of the viewer.

By picking a side, you can't do _any_ business in a country, often. By showing
the worldview (or legally mandated worldview) of the viewer, you abide by
local law and don't have to worry about your employees being arrested.

Pick your fights and your venues wisely. :)

------
jyounker
If you show a Greek map of Cyprus to Turks, you’ll get pissed off customers.
If you show a Turkish map of Cyprus to Greeks you’ll get pissed off customers.

I know this because I’ve been in a team dealing with exactly this set of
issues.

As much as anything Google’s map borders are about good customer service.

------
Mountain_Skies
Isn't this what traditional printed map makers would do? Or were maps of the
pre Google maps era mostly produced by local entities?

~~~
lukeqsee
Yes, and yes. By nature of it, they were produced for a certain language, at
least, which in most cases implies a certain worldview.

------
trixie_
Makes sense.. borders aren’t some universal truth, they’re relative to the
observer. Especially when you get down into the weeds, every country has
border disputes.

------
tanilama
This is how you survive as a company in the world we are in today. We all know
public gets knee jerk reaction towards those issues, and why drive fire
towards yourself.

------
lemax
This sort of journalism feels capricious. Is this supposed to be surprising?
The way it’s presented makes it seem like something should really be
questioned here and that readers should walk away with some kind of
unnecessary ideological reaction about the evils that be in Big Tech. What is
the point of this?

------
sstephant
I wonder what is shown when you're living inside one of those 'disputed'
locations.

------
101404
No surprise, because there are laws in many countries that tell you how a map
must look like.

------
peteretep
Related West Wing:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k9IlR3-_-A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k9IlR3-_-A)

------
Paianni
Borders should be drawn based on the states that control them. So oddities
like Transnistria would be shown, even opposing sides in civil wars.

------
LatteLazy
Aren't they required to in many countries?

------
neonate
[https://archive.md/byuYt](https://archive.md/byuYt)

------
mensetmanusman
Could they use this to troll the ego’s of world leaders? i.e. show Putin he
owns all of Ukraine, etc.

------
dependenttypes
I really hate the whole non-determinism in sites. First we have A/B testing,
then we have google search showing different results depending on what
computer/account/country of the ip address you are using, youtube showing
different recommended videos (rather than basing it on the current video),
etc.

It would be great if instead they had a deterministic way of looking at it.
For example give an easy way to anyone to select a different "perception" for
the map borders.

~~~
qtplatypus
How is that non deterministic?

~~~
hugey010
My guess is non-deterministic is not the correct word. More like determined by
factors not disclosed to the user. Social media does this as a feature.

There must be a line though. I certainly wouldn't want laws in my country to
force Wikipedia to alter facts based on my location. I suppose it's possible
that's already happening.

------
chansiky
This is sort of like if snapchat altered the faces of the people who look into
its camera to make them more attractive to match what they look like in their
own heads. The correct way is to not fuel delusions about the individual and
get everyone to reach a consensus about the real world that we all live in.
But if snapchat presented reality they probably wouldn't have a market either.

~~~
lukeqsee
> get everyone to reach a consensus about the real world that we all live in.

I think that’s the point. This is impossible. The only way the entire world
agrees on every single boundary is, barring world peace another way, a single
world government.

That’s simply not the world we live in or do business in.

Also, this isn’t, shall we say, dressing up the pig. It’s two, potentially
legitimate, competing claims to the same piece of ground. There is, in many
cases, not a single “this is the valid claim.” And perhaps the fact we’re
fighting over how the lines are drawn is an indication things are better than
they used to be? (Because those competitors aren’t all at war over those lines
and we aren’t drawing them all as war zones.)

------
tarkin2
You’re a company. You have the power to influence the opinions of millions,
those millions can - by vote or brute force - hold their government
accountable. Do you take an independent choice based on your morals and the
information you’ve seen, or do you take the road to the biggest pile of cash?

~~~
pridkett
It’s not that simple. The Indian government literally bans maps that depict
the national boundaries as different. It’s even a question on their customs
forms [0]. Taking a position like you suggest is always a debate and is rarely
black and white. Draw the maps differently and suddenly Google stops working.
Now what? Not only do you lose business, but any other value you could provide
to people in the country has now been nullified.

[0] [http://www.cbic.gov.in/resources//htdocs-
cbec/customs/forms_...](http://www.cbic.gov.in/resources//htdocs-
cbec/customs/forms_pdf/cs-bgge-declare-
form1-ason19feb2014.pdf;jsessionid=38149A235D3D72B8BAF51B91DAA404AF)

~~~
amingilani
I concur, and it's the same on the Pakistani side[1]. If you don't play by the
rules online, you're blocked in the country.

[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22337891](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22337891)

