
Librem 5 phone shows the cost of being different - Gedxx
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/01/librem-5-phone-hands-on-a-proof-of-concept-for-the-open-source-smartphone/
======
teddyh
I again quote /u/whiteinge on Reddit¹:

“ _Let 's assume the project is over-promised and will be late and under-
deliver. […] None of that is as bad as NO smartphone alternative to Google and
Apple, let alone an open and privacy-focused alternative. I'm a Linux user and
I very much want a Linux phone. And there has been so, so many false starts
and near misses over almost a decade. My patience and goodwill for Purism and
the Librem 5 is effectively infinite. It's not over until they shutter the
doors or can the project. Until that happens I will continue to hope they limp
over that finish line no matter what._”

1\.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/dm2smy/is_the_libre...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/dm2smy/is_the_librem_5_being_targeted_in_a_viral_media/f54gaur/)

~~~
xorcist
There are also the Pinephone and perhaps the Fairphone, for varying degrees of
openness. Maybe a few others even?

Neither of these are completely in the open but all three are probably good
enough for making an enthusiast operating system run. They are all variations
of relatively well known, sometimes even documented, hardware, with lots of
necessary peripherals with non-free firmware blobs.

Some make efforts to only communicate with these non-free peripherals over
standardized protcols, which is the "good enough" part. For community oriented
mobile operating systems, 2020 is probably going to be the best year yet.

Price is also a factor. Many more people will tinker with a $200 phone than a
$800 one. It's probably better to cut corners with your first model in order
to hit a price point that gets enthusiasts on board. Raspberry Pi did that and
have gotten incrementally more open with time.

~~~
ta999999171
> It's probably better to cut corners with your first model in order to hit a
> price point that gets enthusiasts on board.

Disagree. Viral is more important for a new product like this. Which means
beating naysayers over the head with things working undeniably well.

See: Tesla Model S, Surface tablets made by MS themselves, Google's Nexus line
of phones.

~~~
joecool1029
>See: Tesla Model S, Surface tablets made by MS themselves, Google's Nexus
line of phones.

All bad things to compare to. In all of your examples, these lines were all
established long after the companies entered the market. This is a device
trying to create a new ecosystem from a company that hasn't produced a phone
before for an ecosystem that basically doesn't exist yet.

Right now it should be seen as a prototype (and it is). But whereas Google,
Tesla, and Microsoft have large numbers of engineers these projects rely quite
a bit on community support. Imagine if Tesla launched the Roadster but
couldn't service it themselves, instead relying on independent garages to
figure out the best ways to work out servicing and bugfixes?

For these projects it's better to keep the specs modest (less thermal
issues/faults), the price affordable (more developers can afford to purchase
one), and the perception of support good (so people aren't on the fence
because the manufacturer calls it quits or goes out of business a year later).
It's especially important to keep the price low enough that the first models
could be seen as hobbyist/secondary phones because making a phone ecosystem is
really friggin hard.

Viral works when you're trying to sell a videogame, not when you're trying to
create an ecosystem from basically scratch (or even just carve out a niche).
No matter how Librem tries to market itself, it's a niche product with limited
appeal especially regarding their price point. In this sense, too much
attention from the wrong kind of consumer at this time will be their undoing.

------
dangus
> The most frustrating part of the Librem 5 right now is easily the power
> management, which isn't nearly complete. The phone is dead nearly all the
> time, because so many basic charging features we normally take for granted
> don't work. First, the phone doesn't seem like it has any kind of idle power
> mode. It is hot from the minute you power on until the battery dies, even
> with the screen off. You can't leave the phone on the charger overnight to
> charge it—you'll wake up to a dead phone. I think what is happening is that
> there's no trickle charge, so the phone charges to full, then stops
> charging, then the battery dies.

Yikes. In my mind, this isn't actually a phone in its current form. It's like
a small desktop computer put into a plastic case with a battery.

I have never seen the case up close until this point. It truly looks like a
crude hobby project, almost to the level of being 3D printed.

I have no idea why Purism didn't leave most of the hardware design to someone
who already has a generic modern smartphone done and completed, then they
could have added on to it by swapping out some proprietary bits. Instead we
get this Frankenstein of a project, sold to the public long before it's done
(along with marketing copy that makes the company look unethical - there
should be big warnings on the store page about how far along this project
truly is and what you're getting for your $750).

The worst part about this is that it makes all open source projects look bad.
It makes them look like a bad compromise. And that's not true at all - a lot
of open source projects are great alternatives, and many are even better than
their proprietary competitors.

$750 gets you an iPhone with sophisticated cameras, the fastest mobile
processor on the market, and software support for 5 years if not longer. Walk
into stores across the country to get service and support. What Purism is
telling us is, essentially, if you want to take a stand against the
proprietary world, you have to _give up everything_. You have to use a chunky,
ugly, crudely assembled phone. You have to give up acceptable power
management. And you _still_ have to pay $750, all of this on the cusp of Apple
releasing a new $399 phone according to rumors, Google selling $399 phones,
and budget brands like Motorola providing an absolutely acceptable experience
for under $200 on some models.

~~~
vxNsr
> _I have no idea why Purism didn 't leave most of the hardware design to
> someone who already has a generic modern smartphone done and completed, then
> they could have added on to it by swapping out some proprietary bits._

Either you didn’t actually read the article or you’re being intentionally
obtuse. They very clearly state the reason that they couldn’t use the regular
supply chain. All the usual suppliers refused to work within the “confines” of
OSS.

They were lucky to find a CPU that works at all within their definition and
needs. If you read the article you’d know that the author spends the entire
first page explaining the compromises that were made in favor of OSS. There is
no supply chain for this sort of project. Purism is the first company to
actually attempt it.

Look, I have no horse in this race, I’m a happy Win and iOS user, I have no
plans on changing that. But I commend the effort and definitely believe in the
mission.

OSS hardware _is_ a compromise right now! That’s just a fact. People like you
who can only see the flaws and refuse to understand how we got here are
unhelpful.

~~~
dangus
I may seem unhelpful here, but I'm also taking this from the perspective of a
potential customer.

If you read Purism's marketing on their website, read the blog posts, and the
verbiage on the store page, and then you run out and buy this phone, you'll be
under the impression that you're getting something much more close to
functional than it actually is.

Essentially, this product should be labeled as an early development kit. But
the marketing on the website is even trying to sell this to parents, who
should absolutely not buy this phone for their children (because it's not done
and it'll be dead anytime you try to call them because the power management is
broken).

~~~
seba_dos1
The revision being sold (Evergreen) hasn't been released at all yet, it's
scheduled for Q2. To get the earlier revisions that are being shipped already
you had to explicitly opt in and double confirm via e-mail that you're aware
of possible issues.

------
solarkraft
The article doesn't mention the PinePhone, which I consider pretty shoddy
journalism.

The PinePhone is a competing project with slightly lower specs, similarly good
FOSS purity, that is slimmer, ships today and _costs 1 /5 of the price_.

They clearly market it as being for tinkerers at this point and all the
software support Pine64 is working on is getting the kernel running, leaving
the rest up to the 5 (!) involved distribution communities.

~~~
seba_dos1
Disclaimer: I work for Purism.

I have received a PinePhone (early "BraveHeart" batch - the regular one
doesn't ship yet, mind you) a few days ago. Although the specs seem "slightly
lower" on the paper, I think it's important to note that Librem 5 has twice as
fast RAM bandwidth and its GPU easily goes rounds around the PinePhone's. The
eMMC is also around 30% faster on the Librem 5, and its killswitches are
actually usable in everyday scenarios. The difference is quite easily
perceivable when using both devices with the same software. It is a pretty
neat device, sure, but I think it's important to be honest about how those
phones compare to each other.

Also, PinePhone requires firmware blobs being stored on your rootfs for WiFi,
Bluetooth, and (optionally) camera autofocus. Librem 5 has them stored on
separate flash, making the peripherals that need them self-contained as per
FSF recommendations. Both devices are pretty FLOSS-friendly in my book, but
some people do care about that difference.

~~~
ntw1103
More information on blobs for the PinePhone
[https://www.pine64.org/2020/01/24/setting-the-record-
straigh...](https://www.pine64.org/2020/01/24/setting-the-record-straight-
pinephone-misconceptions/) "The WiFi module communicates with the CPU over
SDIO and BT is over UART – neither of these connections provide direct access
to CPU memory." Also, for the modem, it doesn't have any shared memory with
the CPU. Communication is via USB and I2S.

~~~
seba_dos1
Yes; the interfaces are pretty much the same as on Librem 5 - the differences
are in WiFi/BT firmware blob loading and the fact that L5 has them on
replaceable M.2 cards, while on PinePhone they're soldered to the board.

Librem 5 also has a separate GPS module, while PinePhone uses the one
integrated to the GSM modem.

(PinePhone BraveHeart edition also has some sensors connected via the modem,
but AFAIK that's going to change in later revisions)

------
fouc
We should all buy a librem 5 phone as a show of support.

~~~
m4rtink
Or maybe rather buy the Pine Phone that comes from a company with actual
embedded/mobile hardware experience (Pine64 boards, Pinebook, etc.) and based
on early prototypes seems to work fine ? Not to mention costing less & not
being shrouded in tons of marketing like Librem 5 does.

~~~
alex_duf
Both should be encouraged

~~~
dangus
After reading the article it seems like Purism made fundamental design
mistakes and started selling this phone to the public long before it's ready.

I don't think that should be encouraged. If you follow their blog and product
description page and then place an order you're just about hoodwinked into
buying something that's claimed to be at least mostly working.

I don't think that's ethical, even if the hardware and software itself is.

~~~
darau1
I just want my devices to be as upgradeable and future proof as my desktop is.
If giving my money to either of these companies brings me to closer to that
dream, I'll do it. Though the pinephone's $150 is a much better way to show my
support than the librem's $750+

~~~
padok
PinePhone's $150 currently does not finance the software development in any
way, and will bring just around $10 per device in the future to external
software teams (and I believe the price of the final batch is supposed to
increase a bit).

Librem 5's price, on the other hand, finances a whole team of software
developers that develop things people can (and already do) also use on their
PinePhones. It also helps to move the SoC support forward, as PinePhone mostly
relies on already existing sunxi efforts.

If you can't afford a Librem 5, get a PinePhone, but if you're explicitly
about getting "closer to your dream" then Librem 5 seems like a much better
option when it comes to showing support.

~~~
m4rtink
In the end I think Pine Phone actually does more for open mobile software
development than Purism. Rather than sponsoring a new mobile OS effort built
mostly from scratch (Pure OS) financed from selling a limmited number of
expensive devices, the Pine Phone provides a cheap and accessible platform for
all the existing mobile OS efforts (Sailfish OS, Ubuports, Plasma Mobile,
Maemo Leste, etc.). As far as I can tell as being part of the Sailfish & Maemo
community, this is working quite nicely with a lot of interest and work being
done by community members to get Sailfish OS and Memo Leste running on the
Pine Phone (and also the Fxtec Pro, another nice new reasonably open device
with a hardware keyboard).

~~~
seba_dos1
> a new mobile OS effort built mostly from scratch (Pure OS)

I'm not sure where does that come from. PureOS is a very lightweight Debian
derivative which is built around regular GNOME. Majority on the work happens
directly on upstream and benefits everyone even on desktops. Even parts that
were actually built from scratch, like phosh, are being built with
interoperability and reuse in mind (you can run phosh on any layer-shell
compatible Wayland compositor, like sway; and run phoc with other shells as
well, such as MATE). Also, libhandy is meant to augment existing Gtk
widgetset, as opposed to some other efforts like UBports or Plasma Mobile that
require you to completely rewrite your applications to use new QtQuick
frameworks, as there's no effort being made to make regular Qt Widgets usable
on phones.

Vast majority of the work put into mobile PureOS is just improving Debian and
GNOME to work well on mobile.

(PS. Just today I've seen a community member sharing a video of Maemo Leste
running on the Librem 5 on Matrix... ;) postmarketOS with various shells,
including Plasma Mobile, also works already, and UBports developers already
received their devices, so we may see it running there soon as well)

~~~
m4rtink
Sure, there are many base libraries Pure OS on the Librem 5 uses, but most of
them have never really been used on mobile devices and as you mention require
qite signifficant enahancements.

Then in comparison, there are libraries that have been used on mobileLinux
devices for a while and even open source native applications (mostly on Plasma
Mobile & Ubuntu Touch, Sailfish OS apps are still sadly mostly closed source).

Not making use of and extending all the mobile friendly software almost seems
like starting from scratch to me.

BTW, what telephony midleware is Pure OS using ? Ofono, FSO or something else
?

~~~
seba_dos1
Well, I've seen the effort needed in the past to lay the foundations (when
working on SHR and FSO) and see what's needed now (when working on PureOS).
The difference is massive - turns out that thanks to things like always-
connected 2-in-1 laptops with mobile broadbands and hidpi touchscreens, lots
of things that you simply had to make "mobile specific" in the past can be
just reused from the desktop now; and improving them makes things better for
all GNU/Linux users, not just mobile ones.

The telephony middleware is a great example of that - it uses ModemManager,
which is a part of a regular desktop stack and already well-integrated in
GNOME (and other DEs) for many years. Thanks to that, you can just plug a USB
3G/4G stick to your laptop, install Chatty and start SMSing - just like that,
plug'n'play (you may even be able to make calls if your modem exports audio
over USB, but it's rare).

------
gridlockd
The unintended consequence of this phone being modular and, in theory,
upgradable, is interesting. Some people wouldn't mind having a thicker phone
as a consequence.

Unfortunately, the case is just awful and there's no excuse for this. Low
standards - as seen in many consumer-facing FOSS products - must be to blame
here.

~~~
imtringued
Sounds like an opportunity to deliver high quality FOSS products. Why did the
major manufacturers fail to capture this market?

~~~
gridlockd
The vast majority of customers do not care, while the remainder isn't willing
to pay the premium to make it worthwhile.

------
songshuu
FTA: "You can make phone calls, and you can receive text messages, but you
can't start a new conversation with a contact."

Did the author actually make a phone call? If so, what was the quality?

FTA : "There's no way to access the camera."

So no idea if the device actually will take a photo or video or know what the
quality of those outputs will be.

Considering that an iPhone 11 Pro would cost $60 per month over 2 years, could
some of us Patreon this project at like $30 a month and let them hire up
enough to land this?

I have doubts that a sales model vs the incumbents is going to have enough
runway. Given the quote from teddyh / whiteinge, maybe it's just better to do
more upfront funding instead of expecting open projects to follow the same
physics as venture capital.

~~~
kop316
You can make phone calls. The call quality is fine. I don't think its VoLTE
yet, but its the same quality you get on an Android phone.

You can also start a text via contacts too now. There's been a lot of progress
in a month.

Source: I have a Burch phone, and made a phone call.

I don't know if you realized this, but that's exactly what they did. They made
a kickstarter on their website to finance making the phone. They released some
of the hardware iterations to earlier backers, and made sure they understood
that its a beta product now.

------
jokoon
They really need to lower their specs to make this more affordable. I have no
problem using slower hardware, on the contrary, it saves battery. Maybe they
planned a cheaper version?

I'm also a little curious why they didn't choose an open android fork.

~~~
tsukurimashou
why don't you go with the pinephone then?

~~~
jokoon
I agree that the pinephone is cheaper, but the specs are still too high for my
taste.

~~~
stamps
$150 for the PinePhone is a lot cheaper. I'm not sure how much cheaper you
want it to be.

~~~
jokoon
There are cheaper phones, it's not hard to find pretty good phones that are
around 70 euros.

~~~
ta999999171
Why don't you use those ones, out of curiosity?

~~~
jokoon
Because they're often full of malware or bloated with other stuff.

~~~
ethbro
> _Because they 're often full of malware or bloated with other stuff._

I wonder why they're able to be sold more cheaply?

~~~
dylz
One thing of note is that many of the cheapo Android phones that are also
high-spec don't necessarily come with malware from the factory - that $79
price is the real price, running AOSP. They will happily sell you it for the
real price!

But if you live in a different country, your only choice might be through
reshippers/resellers, who will root the phone and install their own malware
onto the system partition for $1 in profit, seal it back in its box, without
the factory's knowledge. This happens somewhat-frequently.

------
chris_wot
So if they are using Gnome, no wonder they don’t have icons on the front
screen. They’ll need a Gnome extension for that.

------
znpy
wait, so is it purchasable right now ?

~~~
djaychela
Their site [1] says 'buy now, get in 6 months', so sort of...

[1] -
[https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5/](https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5/)

------
codedokode
The hardware is fine but the price... Isn't that too much for a toy?

~~~
stamps
The PinePhone is a much better price ($150) and quite a fun toy as the OSes
develop to a much more usable state.

------
creekpld
Did they solder the vibration motor to the motherboard?

------
Thorrez
So it's effectively unusable due to power management problems. Weird that
they're selling something so broken. Let's hope they can fix the power
management.

~~~
kop316
It is actually much better now. I have a Birch phone and it is very close to
being a viable daily driver. The only thing that stops me from using the
Librem 5 as a daily driver is that MMS does not work.

I think when they get to mass production batch, the Librem 5 will be a usable
replacement phone.

~~~
ac29
Hows power management? Can you get 24 hours on a charge?

~~~
kop316
Power management is much better now. It stays much cooler than before. Right
now its around 4-5 hours on screen time.

Assuming they upgrade to the 3500 man battery, it could reasonably go all day.

