
The Launch of the Mayday Citizens' SuperPAC - famousactress
http://lessig.tumblr.com/post/84419344732/the-launch-of-the-mayday-citizens-superpac
======
rayiner
This is admirable, but I don't think the rhetoric is realistic or effective.
"Government has failed us. More than 90% of Americans link that failure to the
influence of money in politics."

Most Americans also think we spend 10x as much money on foreign aid than we
do. The cause of the current economic malaise is a factual issue, not a matter
of public opinion.

I have a sincere question for the people who support Lessig's statement quoted
above: how can America's current woes not be easily explained by
deindustrialization and automation reducing the need for labor, thus putting
labor in a disadvantageous position relative to capital?

I go into CVS or Wal-Mart, and see everyone using automated checkout machines
with a few cashiers hanging around in case anything goes wrong. Ten years ago,
those didn't exist, and there would be a long row of cashiers. Is campaign
finance really responsible for the woes of the middle and lower class, or is
it technology (and other factors that make Americans of average skill more
fungible)?

I wonder if the focus on campaign financing doesn't mistake correlation for
causation. I think people mistake the degree to political decisions are caused
by the money, rather than the preferences being communicated through the
money. For example, if you're a big corporation with hundreds of employees in
a Congressman's district, you might advertise in support of him, to
communicate the message that raising taxes will lead to reduced employment.
What causes that Congressman to vote against raising taxes? The money that was
spent, or the message that was communicated with that money?

I guess the bottom line is that rich people and corporations don't need to
bribe politicians. In the modern economy, where they can replace most workers
with machines or outsource most work to China, or even renounce their
citizenship and live as an expatriate in Hong Kong, they have all the
leverage. They use the money to communicate their preferences to politicians
afraid of contravening those preferences.

~~~
ddlatham
I think you can definitely debate whether the Congress has done a good job
addressing economic inequality and malaise. But Lessig's point is about more
than that. It's that because Congress has become so dependent on campaign
funds from a tiny portion they have become very unresponsive and
unrepresentative to the interests they should be. In the video he mentions
infrastructure, education, health care, climate change, the tax system. If
they're spending half their time on the phone dialing for dollars, that is
going to skew their interest and their votes.

I pledged.

~~~
humanrebar
> It's that because Congress has become so dependent on campaign funds from a
> tiny portion they have become very unresponsive and unrepresentative to the
> interests they should be.

I think people get who they vote for. It's not like there's an exchange where
you can literally buy votes for dollars.

I'm more upset with the electorate for having under-informed or unexamined
political opinions.

I think the first step is for Americans to find a way to disagree about
politics in a congenial way. As long as it's rude to talk about politics,
people will continue to get their information from ads, talk radio, yard
signs, comedy shows, and hack blogs.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_I 'm more upset with the electorate for having under-informed or unexamined
political opinions._

This is unavoidable. Your vote doesn't matter - the probability of it altering
the outcome are infinitesimally (read: too small to represent with a double)
small.

Unless you derive entertainment value from informing yourself, why would you
waste any time on informing yourself or thinking carefully?

~~~
nokcha
In Kantian ethics, there is a concept known as _universalizability_ : "Act
only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it
should become a universal law." If one subscribes to such a principle, and one
believes that the world would be a worse place if everyone was willfully
ignorant of important political issues, then one would hold that one has an
ethical obligation to make an effort to become politically informed.

~~~
danielweber
I guess I better not become a programmer, because if everyone became a
programmer, there would be no one to farm the fields.

~~~
nialo
A much better rule is something like "act as if you are deciding for everyone
who can be expected to make similar decisions for similar reasons". This
avoids that particular pitfall, because everyone who might decide to be a
programmer for similar reasons is still not too big a fraction of the total
world population, while still giving the right answer re: voting

------
jhspaybar
Alternate Headline: Man vows to get money out of politics by throwing more
money into politics

One thing I really don't understand about this movement to get money out of
politics is what the alternative is? No money in politics? Well clearly
_someone_ has to put money into politics or you'd never see signs up, you
wouldn't see commercials, politicians wouldn't have websites to post their
platforms on, etc.

It seems to me like what people actually want is better politicians and the
influence of money is the current reason to see politicians as poor. People
have always hated politicians though, didn't we have Nixon before this big
money kick? What about Herbert Hoover? Surely he'd be accused of some
corporatist agenda today for his blunders.

It seems to me if you don't like how politicians behave and are influenced
that the solution is to reduce their power and influence. If, and it's a big
if, money is the problem, the money will stop flowing if the benefit of
spending it drops. The larger government gets, the more power we give our
politicians, and the more beneficial spending that money becomes. Remove the
incentives and this problem will fix itself. That probably means many more
complaints about why we don't have specific social programs, research
programs, defense budget and whatever else we spend money on, but it'll fix
the issue of the influence of money.

~~~
acgourley
One popular alternative is to have $X campaign funds provided by the
government to candidates with $Y levels of popular support.

~~~
ja30278
Begging the question of how candidates achieve the Y level of support. Either
they are already well known figures (actors, athletes, etc), or they have to
spend money to make themselves known.

~~~
samolang
Is knowing nothing about a candidate really any worse than knowing only what
their paid advertisements tell you?

------
jws
Sounds like they are testing the fund raising mechanism.

The first goal is $1M in 30 days, the second is $5M in 30 more days. In both
cases the funds will be matched, so they already have $6M near hand, and
realistically there isn't that much more you can do with $12M that you can't
do with $6M.

I suspect May is to get the first little news articles in the press
(Kickstarter meets Elections, underdog to use super pac against super pacs).
The June goal is for the follow up articles that should get more widespread
coverage.

I'm all for putting campaign finance reform at the front of 2014 and 2016. I'm
in.

###ALERT### Check for SSL before donating. As of now the page is not secured.

Edit: Broken autofill on the donation page? Come on, make it easy. I had to
type characters and access my memory to make this happen instead of just
clicking.

~~~
gavinpc
Also, it is just me or is the donation page using HTTP instead of HTTPS?

Maybe naive, but that's a showstopper for me.

~~~
justindz
Lawrence and crew just responded to my tweet on this. They use Stripe, which
is encrypted. The SSL certs for the page that is unencrypted will be up later
today.

[https://twitter.com/Boyko4TX/status/461902353105317891](https://twitter.com/Boyko4TX/status/461902353105317891)

EDIT: forgot to link the tweet.

~~~
DEinspanjer
I'm very unhappy with their replies on Twitter. They can't just say that the
information is going to Stripe and Stripe is safe. The facts are, they have a
form which asks people to put their credit card number in it. That form is on
an unprotected page, which means it is vulnerable to some advanced attacks
even before posting. Further, the form posts back to the same unprotected
page. I don't see any evidence of fancy Javascript behaviors to prevent the
posting, but even if it were so, they are still putting their users in
significant danger of having that information plucked out of the air by anyone
who might be able to sniff the traffic on any leg of the trip from the user's
Wifi all the way to the company's firewall.

~~~
DEinspanjer
Okay, my facts weren't entirely correct.

The HTML of the form shows as POSTing to the same page, but the Stripe JS
captures the submit event and cancels it, then makes an API call to Stripe's
server via a secure connection. It works, but it is still somewhat vulnerable
to MitM attacks.

I like @lessig's latest response. Much more firm and reassuring:

[https://twitter.com/lessig/status/461914159417147392](https://twitter.com/lessig/status/461914159417147392)

~~~
nollidge
I just hit "donate" and it took me to:

[https://mayone.us/fec_compliance/](https://mayone.us/fec_compliance/)

Sincere thanks to everybody who complained to them about this - I wouldn't
have donated without HTTPS.

------
dskang
PSA: You should wait to donate as your credit card information will be relayed
unencrypted over HTTP on their donation page
([http://mayone.us/fec_compliance/](http://mayone.us/fec_compliance/)).

I'm hoping they'll fix this soon.

EDIT: They've added SSL, so go ahead and pledge!

~~~
bhelx
They added SSL but it appears they are still making some kind of mistake. They
claim to be using stripe.js (edit: [http://mayone.us/distribution-
plan/](http://mayone.us/distribution-plan/)) which, as far as i know, creates
a token so you don't have to send the credit card information over to your
server protecting you from liability. It seems like they have still
implemented it incorrectly. If you click "Pledge" it still sends the raw
(albeit now encrypted) information to their wordpress server.

------
humanrebar
As long as there are incentives to manipulate the political process, there
will be money in politics, whether in the open or under the table. Money in
politics has been a problem as long as there has been money and politics.

If this Superpac is successful(1), it will only prove that throwing money at
the right problem in the right way actually works.

1) Given that the major changes have lately been Supreme Court decisions, this
may actually require an amendment to the Constitution, so I am extremely
skeptical that success is possible.

------
denom
It's interesting that this is coming at the same time as the push for a
campaign finance amendment to the US Constitution.

[http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2014/04/30/john-
paul-...](http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2014/04/30/john-paul-stevens-
taking-another-run-putting-his-imprint-
constitution/RkBFe4veWWMk0AiT3Pon5I/story.html)

It's plausible $1-10 million could sway a few votes in the Senate if an
amendment came to a vote.

------
cypherpunks01
Lessig's 2011 book "Republic, Lost" is his first foray into the world of
writing about politics. It's a fairly shocking read, and I enjoyed it quite a
bit. I'm excited that he's partnering with a lot of great people to try and
make campaign finance reform a reality.

~~~
higherpurpose
His 1h talk about the contents of the book:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik1AK56FtVc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik1AK56FtVc)

------
protomyth
Really, the big money corruption is the revolving door between lobbyists and
politicians / staffers. Lobby to stop politicians / staffers from becoming
lobbyists or accepting jobs with companies that contracted with the government
for 5 years after they leave their position will do more to take the money out
of politics than this does.

------
higherpurpose
Money in politics is by far the biggest political issue, I'd say. It's the
root cause of most evil in Congress. It's also the reason why Congress has so
low approval rating (because they aren't listening to the People, but their
_few_ donors), and why they are so useless in terms of collaborating with each
other, too.

How can they collaborate for the "good of the people", when they come from a
position of having to pass new legislation to protect the interests of their
donors one way or another. When you look at it from this point of view, you
realize why so many refuse to compromise on their positions. Maybe they could
compromise on ideology a bit, especially if some solution seems to be getting
the consensus approval, but it's a lot harder to compromise on what your
donors want, and you have to deliver on their wishes if you want to keep the
money coming to your re-election.

------
Aloha
I might be alone in this sentiment, but..

I dont have a problem with unlimited money in politics so long as there is
daylight - If you want to spend money performing what amounts to
electioneering, I think your name should go public with the amount of your
donation.

Daylight by far is the best nostrum for corruption.

------
avmich
> And that’s the leap: It is impossibly hard to imagine raising $1 million in
> 30 days, even as a contingent commitment (meaning, you only get charged if
> we hit the goal).

That's because America is a poor country, and doesn't really want democracy.
Compare to Russia - no, compare to Moscow:

[http://navalny.livejournal.com/845180.html](http://navalny.livejournal.com/845180.html)

76 million (unrevocable) rubles in 2 months, with about 32 rubles per dollar
exchange rate. Summer 2013, Moscow mayoral race. For the candidate opposing
Putin regime.

------
dskang
I'm curious: Why was this post bumped off the front page so quickly?

At the time of this comment, this post has 105 points, 79 comments, and was
submitted 2 hours ago. Despite having more points and being younger than many
posts on the front page, this post is on the second page. Is it due to the
fact that this post is political in nature?

I'm sure a lot of HNers who haven't been on the site in the past 2 hours would
appreciate this submission, so it's unsettling to see that it's no longer on
the front page.

------
tokenadult
I decided to do a site-restricted Google search on Larry Lessig's tumblr to
see if he has written recently on public choice theory.[1] There are no hits
on his tumblr at all for "public choice," even though there are plenty of hits
for his discussions of the influence of money on politics. I guess I went to a
different law school, where we learned about public choice theory in a
mandatory class in our first year.

It's not so easy to fix public policy just by making something illegal that
people are strongly motivated to do--a proposition that HN participants
understand very well when we talk about drug policy, for instance. To better
control the influence of people with a lot of money on a political system that
also governs people who don't have much money takes a lot more than this
SuperPAC. I'm not sure that it even represents me.

[1]
[http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PublicChoice.html](http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PublicChoice.html)

[http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-
economics/21569692...](http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-
economics/21569692-james-buchanan-who-died-january-9th-illuminated-political-
decision-making)

[http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/publicchoice.htm](http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/publicchoice.htm)

[http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PublicChoice.html](http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PublicChoice.html)

------
jpadkins
campaign money is such a narrow factor in elections. While I think these
efforts are well intentioned, they will not be effective.

Billionaires buy media companies that lose money (Jeff Bezos is just the
latest one). why? because they want to influence culture/elections/policy. The
media has _way_ more influence in elections than crappy ads. But I don't
people running around talking about the 0.1% controlling the media in America
or doing anything to address that.

Here is the problem: Most voters are dumb / don't care. Rich people can spend
money to influence dumb, apathetic people.

Solve that problem and you can get money out of US politics. Focusing on
campaign money / lobbyist jobs is just a microcosm of the problem, and will
only result in the money being moved to other ways of influencing
elections/policy (whack-a-mole).

Show me a solution that prevents rich people from creating the stage for Bill
O'Reilly and Rachel Madow.

------
cwal37
I put together a little gif a few years ago (post Citizens United) to show
some potential paths to anonymity for money in politics. I should really
update it with dollar figures and some more detail, but I think it roughly
gets the point across.

[http://i.imgur.com/Hjp1b.gif](http://i.imgur.com/Hjp1b.gif)

~~~
humanrebar
Why shouldn't foreign nationals be able to make statements about U.S.
political candidates?

------
Splendor
Direct link: [http://mayone.us/](http://mayone.us/)

~~~
llamataboot
This link just redirects to mayone.us/countdown/ for me now which has nothing
on it except for a signup form...

~~~
llamataboot
fixed now

------
dang
We changed the url from [http://boingboing.net/2014/05/01/mayday-larry-lessig-
launche...](http://boingboing.net/2014/05/01/mayday-larry-lessig-
launches.html).

------
ProAm
He wants to "elect a large enough roster of congressmen and senators that they
can pass meaningful campaign finance reform". Sounds like asking a wolf to
feed on itself, I don't see this happening.

------
slantedview
For some more background on Lessig and his focus on campaign finance, check
out his TED talk:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2z9lV3W1g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2z9lV3W1g)

------
bhelx
Do they want me to put my credit card and personal information in an insecure
form? I'm trying to figure out if this form posts to a secure endpoint. I
don't think it does.

~~~
notme_
[http://mayone.us/distribution-plan/](http://mayone.us/distribution-plan/)

" What payment processor do you use? Are my money and information safe?

We have decided upon using Stripe as our payment processor. Stripe has offered
us a very competitive rate (for which we thank them), and Stripe is compliant
with PCI requirements and no sensitive data hits our servers. When you enter
in your credit card information, it is not stored on the mayone.us site and
goes directly to Stripe via the Stripe.js API.

Or in short: Yes, your money and info are safe. "

~~~
bhelx
Yeah I read that. But it's strange, when I enter in information and hit
"Pledge" it posts the fields to another insecure endpoint:

[http://mayone.us/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php](http://mayone.us/wp-admin/admin-
ajax.php)

Maybe I am missing something about how stripe works?

~~~
yahelc
[https://stripe.com/help/ssl](https://stripe.com/help/ssl)

> Do I need to use SSL on my payment pages?

> Yes

~~~
bhelx
I'm concerned about why they are posting to THEIR own server to begin with.
Even if they were using SSL, it seems like some kind of misuse of stripe.js

------
canvia
Has anyone ever done a statistical analysis of post voting patterns in
political discussions to attempt to determine if any manipulation of the
discourse might be occurring? Using non-public votes to determine comment rank
seems like a ripe target for abuse since it can't be independently analyzed. I
would love to see an outside audit of votes on a site like reddit to make sure
there isn't corporate or political influence corrupting the exchange of ideas.

------
seivan
What happens if you get backstabbed by these politicians? They tend to do that

------
rdl
The irony of raising money for a SuperPAC to end SuperPACs...

------
r00fus
I hope they have some big names lined up to launch their "moonshot".

------
puppetmaster3
Ha, ha. I too will throw stones into the ocean to get less water.

Say hello to trillions of $.

