
How to increase serotonin in the human brain without drugs (2007) - zerogvt
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2077351/
======
DanBC
People in this thread are repeating the myth that exercise is a treatment for
depression, when all the evidence we have shows that it probably isn't.

The article links to an old version of the NICE guidance. The new version of
that is here:
[https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90)

It's important to note that exercise isn't being touted as a treatment for
depression, but as something that may help people with sub-clinical symptoms.
They have one or two symptoms of depression, but not the whole package.

> Low-intensity psychosocial interventions

> For people with persistent subthreshold depressive symptoms or mild to
> moderate depression, consider offering one or more of the following
> interventions, guided by the person's preference:

> individual guided self-help based on the principles of cognitive behavioural
> therapy (CBT)

> computerised cognitive behavioural therapy (CCBT)[4]

> a structured group physical activity programme.

NICE does _not_ recommend exercise as a treatment for depression. This is
because the evidence we have shows it does not work. It's not, as the author
of the submitted article suggests, that we don't yet have good enough
evidence.

~~~
asynchronous13
Honestly I feel like you're splitting hairs here. You say that exercise is not
a treatment, but at the same time say that exercise may help. Isn't a
treatment something that may help? I get it, don't pretend that exercise is
the magic pill that will work for everyone, especially for those at the more
severe end of the depression spectrum. But, even the NICE guidance that you
linked to suggests "taking regular physical exercise" (1.4.1.2) in mild to
moderate depression.

People commonly use the term "depression" in a way that does not exactly match
the true medical definition. People say "i'm depressed" when they should
really say "i'm feeling sad today". People say exercise is a treatment, when
they should say it makes them feel better. I fear your pursuit for the exact
terms might prevent some people from trying a thing that would help them.

~~~
DanBC
For clarity: I don't think exercise helps treat depression, unless we're also
happy to say that homeopathy treats depression.

------
eiriklv
So many people (including doctors) seem to be set on the idea that serotonin
makes you happy and therefore is the solution to depression. This is only half
true, and not in the way that most think. Serotonin (if high) makes you numb
[1]. But that might be the lesser of two evils when it comes to depression
[2], which is why it’s become popular as a mechanism to treat it. It not a
solution, it’s just masking the underlying problem by replacing one set of
symptoms with another.

[1] -
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989833/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989833/)

[2] - [https://www.health.harvard.edu/depression/is-your-
antidepres...](https://www.health.harvard.edu/depression/is-your-
antidepressant-making-life-a-little-too-blah)

~~~
laythea
That does beg the interesting question that if you don't _feel_ depressed, are
you really depressed?

~~~
crdrost
You are not, on present definitions.

This is one of those things that a lot of members of the public at large do
not seem to know; they think that depression is defined as some sort of
chemical imbalance in the brain, and it is not. Depression is defined in the
DSM more or less as, _being sad too often, except in cases of mourning etc.
where people are often incredibly sad._ It is literally defined as an
overabundance of feeling.

This matters to me because I no longer have depression—I am “cured!”—because I
am no longer too sad often enough to qualify for the diagnosis. I did not use
medicine but developed better coping mechanisms. The _cause_ of my depression
is still around—my negative thoughts will on average trigger one or more
additional negative thoughts until I am paralyzed with self-doubt and
negativity. Indeed, and this is somewhat hard to explain to folks who have
never had this problem, I will sometimes _luxuriate_ in those negative
emotions because they have a sort of familiarity or nostalgia, I spent so much
time being so sad that it is sometimes desirable to feel unpleasant again.
That sort of complicated “if you seek out sadness is it really sadness” type
of question is 100% interesting and valid.

But I developed coping mechanisms to deal with those sorts of emotional
overloads and recognize that they are happening and escape them, and I do not
frequently return back to those unhealthy thought patterns. In that respect I
am cured. The psychiatrists define depression so that _that_ is what cured
looks like: we have not necessarily addressed whatever the underlying cause
is, but we have treated the symptoms.

So it is literally impossible to be depressed if you don't feel sad often
enough; it is part of the definition. Anyone who says “oh I get really sad and
maybe even suicidal, but I am not _depressed_ ” is making a nonclinical
statement that would not be directly translatable as a clinical one.

~~~
uneasy-sausage
Care to expand on the coping mechanisms you developed? Emotional regulation
and stamping out rumination seems to be a wonderful life skill to develop
across the entire board.

~~~
crdrost
Sure, but my physicist training requires me to add the standard caveat about
sample size of 1. Depression comes in many forms and what works for me and my
form of depression may not work for yours. In addition there is some research
that suggests that depressed people simply grow out of depression often
enough; if you sent what I know now back in time to when my depression was
worst there's not even a guarantee that it would have worked back then.

So there were two key developments that helped me personally.

The first was a unified theory of righteousness, manifested in five
commitments I made to myself. They are commitments that I view as essential to
a good or heroic life, they are interdependent and when they are in conflict
they require wisdom to resolve the tension. They are commitments of love,
honesty, ambition, compassion, and humility. So the idea that I had stable
commitments started to anchor me: I was not totally worthless because I had
understood the basic axioms for being heroic. So this is a core environmental
change. I could go on and on about what each of these mean but it is perhaps
not the right context or time for that just here.

The second major change was an adaptive change in crisis moments. I have a
strange religious history where I started Catholic, became a fundamentalist,
became an atheist, became a Buddhist, became a mystic Christian again.
Somewhere in the atheist phase after fundamentalism I had started learning
about Buddhism as part of a general interest in world religions and their
models of heroism but before I had really started meeting Tibetan Buddhists in
person. This introduced me to meditation, but that was not quite what I use:
meditation is something of a constant attention-strengthening exercise, this
is more of an acute stress response. The idea is that I simply try to sit
still in the middle of these swirling negative emotions. My problem is that
each negative thought causes, on average, more than one negative thought: this
change in what I am paying attention to and how I am organizing my activity,
takes that number less than 1. I would not say that it is fully zero. But the
point is, that then my negative emotions behave more like others', they
multiply a little bit but eventually peter out. So just by finding that eye of
the storm, I can eventually gain control of my mind again.

------
rubicon33
Interesting review of non-drug approaches to depression and mood:

\- Alterations in thought (meditation)

\- Exposure to bright light (outdoors)

\- Exercise

\- tryptophan supplementation taken WITHOUT food for greater uptake

\- α-Lactalbumin found in Milk but not really a great option

Definitely can speak to the exposure to light, and exercise ones. Nothing
lifts my mood more than going for a run outside, in the heat of the sun.

~~~
dawhizkid
Didn't read the article but surprised 5-HTP not mentioned?

~~~
erinaceousjones
Tryptophan itself as a component of food is mentioned however, as well as
tryptophan supplementation. I'd consider 5-htp and L-tryptophan to be under
that "tryptophan supplementation" umbrella. The difference between 5htp and
l-tryptophan is that the former doesn't require a transport molecule to get
past the blood-brain barrier, so it [citation needed] converts to serotonin
quicker, whereas with l-tryptophan there's a rate-limiting effect. 5-htp for
faster effects, L-tryptophan to prevent building a tolerance to the extra
serotonin.

~~~
xkcd-sucks
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3415362/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3415362/)

------
PascLeRasc
I have a seasonal depression diagnosis and lifting weights has been by far the
best treatment for me. Meditation, light therapy, and vitamins/nootropics are
all good on their own, they each sort of take away some of the symptoms, but I
wouldn't say the depression isn't still there. But weightlifting is
incredible. I feel amazing after a heavy session - deadlifting and benching
especially give me a kind of euphoria. Gym fixes my lack of appetite, lack of
social energy, disorganization, lack of motivation to work on my hobbies, work
focus, anxiety, everything. I can't recommend lifting enough.

~~~
eiriklv
Lifting weight increases androgens (testosterone/dht) which seem to have very
positive effects when it comes to alleviating depressive symptoms.

[1] - [https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-
abst...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-
abstract/2712976)

------
dekken_
More info on niacin/tryptophan

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yofewUE6L-k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yofewUE6L-k)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l0S25DIxqw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l0S25DIxqw)

~~~
mrpinc
I took niacin once in pill form and it made my body burst out into a fierce
itch rash that lasted about an hour.

~~~
dekken_
That's know as a "niacin flush" AFAIK - you might have taken too much too soon

~~~
rubicon33
From the article, they mentioned that taking tryptophan or eating foods with
tryptophan in them, reduces the uptake of tryptophan due to amino acid
competition:

> There is competition between the various amino acids for the transport
> system, so after the ingestion of a meal containing protein, the rise in the
> plasma level of the other large neutral amino acids will prevent the rise in
> plasma tryptophan from increasing brain tryptophan

So possible OP took it on an empty stomach which spiked the levels in the
body?

------
booleanbetrayal
Hardcore ravers used to pre/post-load on 5-HTP years ago.

~~~
copperx
Isn't it ironic that the article is about increasing serotonin without using a
drug, and the first reflex is to suggest a drug?

~~~
everfree
It's a supplement, they're entirely different according to the FDA.

~~~
dagurp
according to lobbyists

~~~
LinuxBender
5-HTP is created by your body, from L-Tryptophan, which is an amino acid. Your
body converts many micro-nutrients into various amino acids and hormones. Some
vendors pre-convert these things so they are in a safer form to use. 5-HTP is
much safer to consume than L-Tryptophan.

~~~
copperx
In which way is tryptophan unsafe?

~~~
LinuxBender
There is a risk of eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS). [1] There are pre-
existing conditions that increase the risk of EMS that may not be evident, as
liver / kidney damage is not apparent until it reaches near totality.

[1] -
[https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-326/l-trypt...](https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-326/l-tryptophan)

------
xkcd-sucks
Surprisingly, a _carbohydrate-only_ meal provides an immediate, drastic
increase in serotonin biosynthesis. A high protein meal does not. And it's
probably pretty irrelevant to clinical stuff because there have to be high
protein meals in the past to get the effect.

The reasons are:

\- Trp transport into CNS is rate limited by large neutral amino acid (LNAAt)
transporter

\- Trp has a lower affinity for LNAAt than other amino acids

\- Trp, 5HTP, serotonin are strongly buffered by blood plasma proteins

So, with a high protein meal, the isoleucine, phenylalanine etc. are
outcompeting typtophan at getting into the brain. With a low protein meal,
insulin triggers uptake of amino acids into tissue (again, preferentially
stuff that's _not_ Trp), and Trp in blood is enriched as it dissociates from
plasma proteins. Then the composition of blood amino acids is mostly Trp so it
is taken up by brain tissue.

[0]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677921](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677921)
[1]
[http://wurtmanlab.mit.edu/static/pdf/1001.pdf](http://wurtmanlab.mit.edu/static/pdf/1001.pdf)

------
Beefin
Doing my best to summarize the effects of 5-HTP and its' corresponding pubmed
research:

[https://nutripeek.com/detail/5-htp](https://nutripeek.com/detail/5-htp)

~~~
jw1224
Do you know anything about how EGCG affects absorption of 5-HTP?

I've read in several places that 5-HTP is more effective when consumed with
EGCG (green tea extract), but I'm not sure if this is just urban legend or if
it has any real–world effects.

~~~
Beefin
Piperine typically increases the bioavailability of most substances,
especially fat soluble ones like 5-htp

------
dekken_
Been taking Tryptophan for about four years, changed my life when I found it

~~~
collyw
I have had problems sleeping for years, and used 5-HTP in the past. Like many
things (e.g melatonin) I found it worked at first but doesn't seem to be
anywhere near as effective as it used to be. Do you still find it effective
after 4 years of use?

~~~
ddeokbokki
Are you taking tolerance breaks?

~~~
collyw
I don't take it regularly any more.

But effectively yes, I would run out, not order any for a few weeks / months
then order some.

------
jonathanfoster
One of the key findings is positive thinking can increase serotonin. “Self-
induced changes in mood can influence serotonin synthesis.”

For those interested in a practical approach to positive thinking, check out
“How Full is Your Bucket” by Tom Rath and Donald Clifton [1]. They discuss the
5:1 ratio of positive to negative interactions and how it’s the key to a happy
relationship [2].

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/How-Full-Your-Bucket-
Rath/dp/15956200...](https://www.amazon.com/How-Full-Your-Bucket-
Rath/dp/1595620036)

[2] [https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-magic-relationship-ratio-
ac...](https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-magic-relationship-ratio-according-
science/)

------
teekert
This type of article makes me realize how much a love the more and more used
abstract section with a couple of lines of: Introduction, method, result and
discussion.

------
lelf
pdf —
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2077351/pdf/200...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2077351/pdf/20071100s00001p394.pdf)

------
ada1981
TLDR;

1) Think Happy Thoughts. 2) Bright Light Exposure. 3) Exercise. 4) Tryptophan.

~~~
rzzzt
Radiohead's "Fitter Happier" springs to mind.

~~~
ada1981
Oh that’s worth a listen right now!

~~~
rzzzt
They didn't exactly want listeners to get health advice from the song :)

------
ineedasername
TLDR: Four methods.

1) PET/CT stimulation

2) Exposure to bright light

3) Exercise

4) Diet

~~~
copperx
> PET/CT stimulation

I didn't find the definition for PET/CT in the article. It sounds like PET/CT
scans.

~~~
ineedasername
Yeah, I know the usual terminology is for a PET "scan", which sounds passive,
so I'm not sure if they're doign something different here.

------
peterwwillis
Not addressed in paper: why life is now more depressing and how to make it
less depressing without brain chemical hacks

~~~
ljoshua
Actually, this was tangentially addressed. It specifically mentions the fact
that we are getting less bright light exposure today due to our increasingly
indoor habits (versus historical contexts where humans typically worked
outside more), as well as the decrease in physical activity due to the
changing nature of work as well. Furthermore, it specifically highlighted the
disconnect between physical labor and reward (it called it "effort-based
rewards"), or in very crude terms, we run to run these days, instead of
running to catch our meal.

There's certainly a good deal more to the topic you brought up as a whole, but
those were a couple of interesting points from the article that I thought it
addressed.

~~~
peterwwillis
Those are reasons to want a serotonin hit, but they don't explain the huge
cultural trend towards depression. Just look at 50 years ago. We were working
in about the same way that we work today, in basically the same environments.
Same amount of light, same lack of physical labor. How did we get more
depressed in the same environment over such a short period of time?

~~~
poushkar
It is believed that 50 years ago depression was less researched and therefore
less diagnosed/recognised. Also, social stigma of mental disorders was
stronger and people generally kept quiet about it. The bottom line is: it was
always there, it's just that we talk about it more nowadays.

~~~
mdorazio
I thought the same thing, but the data does not support this view. See my
other comment in this thread - if you look at the symptoms of
depression/anxiety rather than specific diagnoses of it, the trends are pretty
clear.

~~~
copperx
If there were no data, how can you say that the data do not support this view?

~~~
ComputerGuru
Who says there is no data?
[http://www.csun.edu/~dma/Twenge,%20Gentile,%20DeWall,%20Ma,%...](http://www.csun.edu/~dma/Twenge,%20Gentile,%20DeWall,%20Ma,%20Lacefield,%20&%20Schurtz%20\(2010\).pdf)

