
Sticker shock over Seattle's new sugary drink tax - Shivetya
http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/sticker-shock-over-seattles-new-sugary-drink-tax/677490924
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smoyer
I broadly agree that we americans consume too much sugar but I'm worried that
many will find drinking artificial sweeteners as detrimental as I have.
Somewhere I have a link to a source article with references to the study
behind this article but alas, I'm not finding it in my Pinboard -
[https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/01/...](https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/01/14/artificial-
sweeteners-dont-fool-your-brain.aspx).

What about all our other over-sweetened junk foods? What about all our fried
snack-foods?

~~~
Keverw
Good point. At least sugar is natural instead of a bunch of man made
chemicals.

~~~
icebraining
The sugar used in drinks - especially in the US - is far from natural. There's
no HFCS in nature.

~~~
Keverw
Yep. I would prefer if they went with just regular cane sugar instead but I
know some drinks do have a version with that now.

~~~
senectus1
Australia overwhelmingly uses cane sugar, but we still have plenty of obesity.

I think its less to do with the type of sugar consumed... and more about how
much we consume.

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olympus
These taxes currently only drive purchases out of your jurisdiction, lowering
your tax base but not preventing the bad behavior. If you want a sugar tax to
be effective it needs to cover a large enough area that I can't easily avoid
it.

Boulder, CO has a two cent per ounce sugar tax. It has been extremely
effective- I now always stop at a gas station in Denver to buy a soda before
driving into the Boulder city limits (I only go to Boulder once or twice a
month).

It's just like how we used to drive across state lines to buy cheap fireworks
as a kid.

~~~
friedButter
> These taxes currently only drive purchases out of your jurisdiction

Or you can use it as an employment generation exercise by setting up
checkpoints at state borders to avoid import from other states, applying a
higher tax on fuel locally and making it illegal to bring more fuel into the
state than you go out with. A few states in India have successfully
implemented the first part for alcohol for instance, and I guess other
countries should have the same. Even US has differing gun laws across states,
so whatever mechanism is used to enforce those can be extended to enforce this

~~~
LyndsySimon
> Even US has differing gun laws across states, so whatever mechanism is used
> to enforce those can be extended to enforce this

Ah, so stopping minorities to shake them down for soda.

In all seriousness, you can't just set up border checkpoints in the US. You'd
have to have probable cause to stop an individual, and even if you stopped
everyone you can't search them without a warrant (which requires probably
cause) or their permission.

~~~
friedButter
Isnt checking for cross state border tax evasion considered probable cause?
Just like how customs inspects packages coming from outside the country or
even Americans returning from a foreign visit (Not an American, just curious..
since apparently this is a US specific behaviour)

~~~
LyndsySimon
> Isnt checking for cross state border tax evasion considered probable cause?

Nope. Probable cause is a specific legal standard in the US - the Wikipedia
article gives a decent overview:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause)

In short, it requires a reasonable belief that a crime has been committed.

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runj__
Are there any other goods taxed after quantity rather than a sales tax? It
seems complicated.

EDIT: Ah, cigarettes and alcohol (in the US) apparently:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_taxes_in_the_United_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_taxes_in_the_United_States#State_cigarette_tax_rates)

[https://www.cbo.gov/budget-options/2013/44854](https://www.cbo.gov/budget-
options/2013/44854)

And healthcare:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_tax_in_the_United_State...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_tax_in_the_United_States#Affordable_care_act_excise_taxes)

~~~
olympus
Gasoline tax is based on quantity in the USA:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_Sta...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States)

It makes sense because gas usage is very correlated with road wear, so people
who drive heavier vehicles pay a proportionate share of the road maintenance
costs.

~~~
froindt
> It makes sense because gas usage is very correlated with road wear, so
> people who drive heavier vehicles pay a proportionate share of the road
> maintenance costs.

There are also some cases where it makes no sense, particularly since fuel tax
is a primary source of funding for infrastructure and repair.

A Toyota Prius and a Ford Focus are both around 3,000 lbs, will do roughly the
same damage on the road. The Prius gets 58 mpg city and 53 highway. The Focus
is at 30 city 40 highway. So for city driving the Prius driver contributes 1/2
as much to the fuel tax revenues.

It's a nice incentive to reduce emissions, however the Prius driver is not
contributing proportionally to the fuel tax.

If only we could charge make a charge based on weight, mpg, and miles driven.

~~~
r00fus
The brouhaha over a Prius (or heck, my Focus Electric) not paying fair share
of gas taxes is overblown since hybrids and electrics still constitute a
minuscule % of total road wear.

The issue will come to a head when we have 4x4s and 18 wheelers en masse
hybridized or fully electric in large quantities. I don't see that happening
for a decade or more out.

~~~
LyndsySimon
I honestly don't ever see the typical 4x4 being a hybrid. Living in rural
Arkansas, almost everyone I know who drives a 4x4 drives an older model, and
working on them is a large part of the experience.

I drive a 2000 Jeep, and wouldn't even consider buying a hybrid or fully-
electric version. A diesel, absolutely, but not anything with a battery pack.

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dawhizkid
Isn't that the point? If it went unnoticed because it was too small then
nothing would really come of it.

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snarfy
I hate 'sin' taxes in all forms including this one. Tax alcohol, tobacco,
cannabis, and now sugar. It's meant to control behavior, but they
disproportionately affect the poor. They do a poor job of controlling
behavior. Any cigarette smoking given the choice between having no lunch or
having no cigarettes is going to choose cigarettes every time. That's not
controlling behavior it's subverting it.

~~~
svantana
The word "sin" implicates that it's all about morality, but there are also
real negative externalities associated with these stimulants that are costing
society a lot of money. Also, taxes have to come from somewhere, isn't it good
to tax things that are (on average) bad for society rather than only
good/neutral things (like income)?

~~~
bryanlarsen
"Pigouvian tax" is the term for a tax on negative externalities.

A tax on sugar is both a sin tax and a Pigouvian tax. IMO the real reason for
its introduction was the sin tax angle, but it's Pigouvian tax principles is
what makes it a "good" tax.

~~~
pm90
I was under the impression that the taxes were more from a public health
perspective: smoking, alcohol etc. are leading causes of death and we want to
discourage public consumption while at the same time raising revenue

~~~
bryanlarsen
That's basically the definition of a sin tax: a tax to discourage you from
doing things that are bad for you.

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makesthingspos
In common scenarios this can be a 134-236% tax. Cigarette tax is roughly 50%,
Marijuana is roughly 50%, Liquor is roughly 30%.

Common scenarios:

Store brand 2-liter: $0.88, 67 ounces, $0.0175 per ounce, $1.17 in tax, 134%
tax.

During all of December, 2-liter Cokes at Walmart in my town in Washington (not
sure about Seattle) were $0.95 with $1 off coupon when buying two, this yields
the 236% tax rate.

If milk is listed as the first ingredient, it's not taxed. So 1200 calorie
milkshakes are a substitute.

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nickjj
Hey, it could be worse.

I live in a place where as of Jan 1st of this year, you have to pay a tax on
plastic bags (5 cents per bag).

Unlike soda, just about everyone who goes grocery shopping in small increments
uses bags (because a cart is overkill).

Yesterday I left the grocery store with a chicken breast sticking out of my
coat pocket.

~~~
Thimothy
Or, crazy thought, you could _reuse_ those bags. A tiny dent on all that
plastic wrapping that goes into landfills but...

~~~
nickjj
I will now but I don't think it'll do much in the grand scheme of things.

Even if you bought 1 bag every day for a year that'll be $18.25. Most people
won't care enough to reuse bags and will continue doing business as usual pre-
tax.

Then of course, there's the ~7.4 billion other people on Earth who never even
heard of a plastic bag tax so their habits won't change either.

I would rather see them just stop manufacturing plastic bags and also make
them illegal. If their goal is to cut down on people using them that would be
the way to do it. Instead, they tax it to an amount where they are hoping more
than enough people won't care enough, so they can profit off laziness while
they care nothing about the environment.

~~~
dagw
_Then of course, there 's the ~7.4 billion other people on Earth who never
even heard of a plastic bag tax so their habits won't change either._

Actually a plastic bag charge or even ban becoming the norm in more and more
parts of the world. If anything the US is late to this game.

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Keverw
I doubt the diet soda is going to be much better for you. Seattle seems crazy.
Banning plastic straws. Sure wouldn't want to live there, maybe visit but they
even want to ban people from driving gas and diesels into the city! So I guess
skip them on the road trip across the country once they do!

Electric cars are all about control, limiting freedoms and are gimmicky. The
new Tesla you have to use the touch screen to even open the glove box! Even
the AC is touch screen based - which I think is unsafe compared to a tactile
physical knob.

[http://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-other-major-world-
cit...](http://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-other-major-world-cities-
pledge-to-ban-gas-diesel-vehicles) \- wonder how huge of a fine they'll give
to tourists just passing through.

I really think these local governments are out of control. I really hope the
feds step in and do something to them using the Commerce Clause to end this
nonsense. I think there are certain things cities should be prohibited from
regulating.

~~~
icebraining
So you want to ban them from banning stuff? What's wrong with local citizens
deciding what they want for their own city, anyway?

 _The new Tesla you have to use the touch screen to even open the glove box!
Even the AC is touch screen based - which I think is unsafe compared to a
tactile physical knob._

I fully agree, but that has nothing to do with being an electric car. The
Chevy Bolt has a regular knob for AC control, for example:
[http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2017/03/Chevrol...](http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2017/03/Chevrolet-
Bolt-EV-2017-All-Star-Winner-climate-control.jpg)

~~~
Keverw
Nice about the Bolt. I just feel like Silicon Valley and other cities like LA
and Seattle are out of touch with the rest of America, and some sort of bubble
of repeating ideas over and over again.

I care about the environment but I also think we have to be practical about
it. Newer and newer gas cars are getting cleaner and more efficient. Or maybe
someone enjoys off roading in their Jeep. or someone out of state is touring
the nation in their Diesel Pusher RV. I just think it's crazy for a city to
try to ban people who live in other cities from even being allowed to drive
there based on their car. Well by 2030 and the article mentions the mayor, so
maybe it will never happen. I just hate that idea. Maybe the tourism or
chamber of commerce would step up for that one.

At least with the soda tax you can just drive out of the city and buy it
cheaper like the signs they posted mentioned at the store.

~~~
dagw
_I just feel like Silicon Valley and other cities like LA and Seattle are out
of touch with the rest of America_

I thought that was one of the cool features of the US. That cities and states
are much more free to come up with their own way to do things and test out new
ideas without always having to go the federal government and ask for
permission. If Seattle wants to do A and Minneapolis wants to do B, they can
just go and do it and see what happens instead of lobbying the government to
make either A or B mandatory across the whole country.

