
Netflix cracks down on proxy streaming - nyodeneD
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35320436
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jrnkntl
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10902323](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10902323)

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vbezhenar
Netflix came to Kazakhstan few days ago. So far I used torrents, because there
were no legal services with good enough offerings for me. I'm using
Netherlands VPN almost always, because Kazakhstan bans many sites. So I
subscribed to Netflix and I liked that service, I would definitely continue
that subscription. But I switched off my VPN once and suddenly everything I
watched just disappeared. It's blocked for me. So probably back to torrents
for now. I really liked Netflix interface, it's the best experience I've ever
seen. But interface doesn't worth a penny without content.

~~~
CleanCoder
Have you seen Popcorn Time before? A friend of mine has been using it when
travelling to places with restrictions on Netflix access.

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piva00
AFAIK Popcorn Time uses torrents, it'll not be a problem for OP but in other
countries (such as Germany, I think) it can and will cause you legal problems
and fines for pirating content.

At least with proxies/VPNs + Netflix you'd not trigger those kind of
penalties.

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zcam
You can just use a VPN with popcorn as well (or "normal" torrents for that
matter).

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GordonS
UK subscriber here.

When using a proxy to access US content I get about _double_ the content. If I
can't do this anymore, it's not worth the price and I will be gone.

~~~
yummybear
Denmark is paying 15$ per month and only getting 2151 vs. the US 8$ per month
for 5751 titles.

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hollerith
The Americans paying $8 / mo signed up before the price increase. An American
signing up today has to pay $10 / mo.

That does not of course undermine your basic point.

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dr_faustus
Unfortunately, this means that I will have to reconsider my membership. Their
service in Germany is just not comprehensive enough. I hope that this is just
a short term problem until they a) renegotiated their licensing contracts and
then stop the blocking again (more likely) or b) they actually get global
licenses (less likely).

Their original content is getting more and more interesting but its just not
enough to justify the price, IMHO. Maybe they should consider a package with
only Netflix Originals for 50% off or something.

~~~
sveme
I'm using the German Netflix without a VPN or proxy, so I'm unfamiliar with
the differences between the German and US offerings? Would you care to tell me
more? What are you watching on US Netflix that is not available on German
Netflix?

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tren
If you checkout [https://flixsearch.io/](https://flixsearch.io/) you can see
the number of shows by country. Germany has 1808 and USA has 5750 shows
available. I'm in Australia and there's the extremely ridiculous situation
where a Netflix created show "Better Call Saul" isn't available to Australian
Netflix users because Netflix sold the show's rights to a local competitor
before they had a presence in Australia.

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mhaymo
Acoording to Wikipedia, Better Call Saul is produced by Sony for AMC, not
Netflix:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Call_Saul#Development_h...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Call_Saul#Development_history)

> Netflix was one of many interested distributors, but ultimately a deal was
> made between AMC and Breaking Bad production company Sony Pictures
> Television.

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embik
Interesting, I'm pretty sure it has the little "Netflix" logo for being a
Netflix Original series on Netflix Germany.

Follow up: Yes it has.

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Vespasian
Probably because they are the original publisher in germany. I've seen that
for a few series.

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aluhut
This nationalization of the internet is ridiculous. Especially in the media
business where you don't even have to torrent anymore. One-Click-Hosters or
streams are all over the place. Popular shows can be found by googling.

I just can't understand how we can still move backwards facing all this. I
have the feeling that the content providers just hope for the inability of
their customers to google.

But hey, I taught a guy who last year didn't even use YouTube to find his
favorite US shows from Germany and how to download them in 1080p without any
risk. So please...wake up.

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halviti
This has to do with licensing and rights more than anything else.. not just
"the internet"

Just because you have rights to something in one country, does not mean you
have rights to that same thing in another country and so on.

Content providers are up against an amazing amount of bureaucracy, and only
have limited resources to deal with these things.. especially considering
we're talking about different laws and systems for virtually every country on
the planet.

I'm certain Netflix would like to offer you as much content as they can, but
they also have to respect existing law.

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rmc
And if copyright/cultural owners don't pay attention and start selling "global
rights", piracy will continue to be their worry.

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XorNot
^ This. We can solve this problem by continuing to ensure the "fixes" don't
work. Because above all Netflix proved that the convenience is worth the price
of admission...but that region locks in a world with global bandwidth, paying
customers and very limited distribution costs are pants-on-head stupid.

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sklivvz1971
The only "fair" thing they could do is have specific-country accounts. If you
have a UK account then you get UK price and UK content _everywhere in the
world_.

It would suck, because of course the US version is much better, but at least
it would be fair.

I find it shocking that I can't access the content I'm paying them for if I'm
traveling to a different country. I don't even know if it's legally sound...

That said, per-country licensing is simply stupid. However that's how the
content industry works for historical reasons, and they are known to be 30
years behind in technological understanding...

Edited to add:

Ultimately, it's a war that the content providers can't win. In order to watch
Star Trek via streaming from the UK, on line I have 3 options at the moment:

1) Use a VPN and Netflix USA

2) Use a VPN and torrents

If they kill the first, what options to they leave?

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k-mcgrady
Why don't you rent/buy the movie on iTunes or Amazon? It's available. And if
you were to rent it on iTunes you could start streaming it immediately.

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sklivvz1971
Because their price is _appaling_.

Star Trek on Neflix US: part of a 6£/m subscription;

Watching a complete series (TNG) on iTunes (renting): not available;

Watching a complete series (TNG) on iTunes (buying): 280£;

~~~
k-mcgrady
I thought we were talking about a Star Trek movie, not series, my mistake. I
don't think a price comparison in that way is completely fair. You make the
purchase from iTunes and it's yours for life. You have to continue paying
Netflix when you want to watch it. There are also other limitations (can't
watch the Netflix version when flying for example). My point though is that,
even though it's expensive, buying it is a viable option. You may not be able
to afford to binge it in a weekend this way but it's a perfectly viable option
as purchasing content for a similar price has been for people for decades.

~~~
sklivvz1971
Buying all the Star Trek series (29x40£=1160£) costs like 15 years of Netflix
(6£*180=1080£)...

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cocoggu
For people concerned, I asked the Smartflix team if it will impact their
service. Here is their answer:

"Hello! Yes, we are aware about the recent statement that Netflix has
published, and needless to say we are upset about it!

However this does not mean the end of Smartflix. We are constantly able to
outsmart these systems, and we will continue to do so for as long as humanly
possible - so fear not!"

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thirdsun
As I understand it they intend to charge their users at some point? Doesn't
look like a sound plan to me as Smartflix will probably have to constantly
fight against whatever measures Netflix (or its licensing partners) comes up
with. I, as a potential user, certainly wouldn't rely on that service.

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BrockSamson
I can see a lot of people I know cancelling their subs. Also I wonder if this
will result in a resurgence of torrents as people find other ways to watch
their shows.

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GordonS
From a technical standpoint, how can they actually enforce this?

I can see how they can do this for publically advertised proxies used by many
people, but what about individuals with their own cloud servers hosting their
own proxy or VPN? (i.e. me!)

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TeMPOraL
Can't they just discriminate based on your billing address?

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sim0n
Thats the obvious solution, though how would that affect people using Netlfix
while traveling?

For example, if you're locked to the US region and watch something that is
only available in the US while visiting, say, the UK — would that break any of
Netflix's license agreements?

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pjmlp
Same thing with app stores.

Try to buy some apps in one country and download them again while in another.

Last time I read about this it wasn't possible to do so.

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Sephiroth87
Not true (at least with Apple), my main Apple ID is Italian, but I live in the
UK, and I use with no problem...

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pjmlp
Can you delete an app bought in the italian app store while in Italy and then
install the same app via the UK app store while in UK?

This was the issue I read about, just the example was from a guy in Europe
that moved back to Canada.

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Sephiroth87
That only applies if you change the country your account is linked to (since
for some reason in 2016 most companies have yet not figured out people
move...), but all you need is a valid payment method for the country you wish
to use and you can use that account anywhere you want

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cm2187
How do they spot proxies? Do they have lists of known proxy IPs? Or do they
have a way to tell from the incoming connection? I wouldn't be very hard to
fire up a VM in a cloud service to watch a movie, switch it off when done. The
cost should be fairly marginal, and you would come from a new unique IP every
time.

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imglorp
Good point. There might even be a business for that, transient proxy vm's.

From NF's viewpoint however, nobody has their living room in Amazon or Azure,
so any connections from cloud providers can be safely dropped also.

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soneca
If this is indeed forced by content creators, I think it is counter
productive. They will just give more incentive to Netflix (and Amazon and
others) to create they own content, as third part content lose them money.

Perssonal view: the "Original Netflix Content" sign already give me a more
value perception. Between a recycled TV show and a new one by Netflix, I
always chose the new on by Netflix. So far I watched all of: Daredevil,
Jessica Jones, Making a Murderer, House of Cards, Narcos, Sense8, Bloodline,
Orange is the new black, Master of None, Better Call Saul.

And I'll probably keep watching the next seasons of all of them.

Outside of Netflix, I only follow the very best ones (IMO): Game of Thrones,
Breaking Bad (that's over) and Walking Dead.

What this means? I consume only the very best hits that these other content
creators produce. For casual, day-to-day entertainment, that covers 90% of the
time, I stay with Netflix.

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stdclass
Like @mhaymo has pointed out in another comment, Better Call Saul is actually
produced by Sony for AMC, not Netflix.

~~~
soneca
interesting, because Netflix puts their logo on the cover.

edit: as I understood it, Netflix is the exclusive distributor for Brazil,
that's the reason of the logo.

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Jedd
So here's the thing -- vendors of DVDs used to constrain who could view (and
when) the various cuts of their product based on where the viewers (or rather,
purchasers) were located.

Someone [1] worked around this and subsequently the idea of region-locked DVD
discs & players became a historical footnote.

Why is the same industry evidently repeating the same mistake?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Lech_Johansen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Lech_Johansen)

~~~
csydas
It's a slightly different technology being dealt with here and to some degree
I have sympathy for Netflix and other stream providers (mostly Amazon).

The difference between the DVD region locking and the stream region locking is
that the powers that be never stood a chance at locking down the DVDs. It's
like the old saying about physical access to a machine - all bets are pretty
much off at that point. The DVD region locking cases were more just a
desperate attempt to get some legal teeth to hit people with rather than
actually stop the issue. After all, once the DVDs are in the wild and the
crack is live, you can't really stop people from removing the region lock, you
can just sue them after the fact.

With streamed content, it's a different ball-game since the providers
technically can control the delivery and experience all the way through the
content. If Netflix et. al. can create a successful means of blocking VPN and
proxy access, then you sure bet that the rights-holders are going to double-
down on the region blocking. The rights-holders already are getting their cut
from Netflix et. al., so it's not like they're losing a huge chunk of change,
and if people up and up ditch the streaming sites, that falls more in line
with what the rights-holders likely want anyways.

I really enjoy Prime's video selection, and from what I've seen with Netflix,
it's nice. I'm in Russia right now and I really wish that I could watch the
shows I've paid for access to on Prime. But I don't really hold any
disillusionment as to where the fault lies here. The rights-holders made
dozens upon dozens of distribution agreements about what can be shown where
and by who, and Netflix and its kin are pretty much just stuck.

Hopefully they can show that their model is more profitable as a global
library rather than regional libraries, and the content holders will loosen
their grip. Maybe I'll win the lottery.

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x0
Well there goes my subscription.

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kelvin0
My question is: how can they tell (and block) if a user is streaming through
VPN? Do they systematically block all major VPN provider domains? Anyone know
how this is done?

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CleanCoder
I believe the first step would be associating your method of payment with the
country whose content you are eligible to see.

~~~
kelvin0
So, a Brazilian citizen living in the US would pay the Netflix account using
his Brazilian Credit card. And that would block him into Netflix Brazil
content? The origin of the CC is the issue? What about 'generic' CC you can
buy at stores?

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wintermute306
The reality of it is, that they don't want to do this but they are being
forced to. I suspect they'll put some measures in place but nothing ironclad.

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XorNot
It does occur to me that this was probably a lot like Comedy Central's
ridiculously easily circumvented geo-blocking. I suspect the sysadmins said
"what's the laziest thing we can do?"

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magicmu
My parents recently moved to Turkey, and I set them up with NordVPN (good
service and easy to use for non-technical people). All they really wanted to
watch was Star Trek: TNG anyway, which, even after the big availability push,
is not available via Turkish Netflix. Without being able to do that, they will
certainly cancel that subscription.

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746F7475
I recently resubscribed, but I had forgotten the lack of content without
proxies and since I'm mostly just streaming to Chromecast from my phone I'm
not sure I can even use a proxy anymore. I probably should unsubscribe either
way. I haven't really watched anything new since I resubscribed

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greggarious
So if I'm traveling WITHIN the united states, I can't use my VPN on the shady
hotel wifi? Lame.

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drather19
Sounds like more Netflix through hotel set top boxes is in the works (e.g.,
[http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2487505,00.asp](http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2487505,00.asp)).

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andy_ppp
This seems weird, it'll just increase piracy and lose them money? The people
who are using proxies etc. really aren't doing anything wrong are they and
they are paying for the service presumably in the locale they are proxying to?

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d_theorist
Assuming that this is going to work by just blocking known proxy IPs, I
suppose it can be worked-around simply by setting up your own VPN server,
which really isn't that difficult.

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K0nserv
I am wondering how blocking VPN services/proxies will work in IPv6. Seems to
me like the sheer amount of IPv6 addresses would make blocking by address
completely impossible

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dovdov
I guess they "crack down" on their prices also then,

I mean I'd love to pay the same price from my eastern-european salary for the
fraction of the US content,

if I would be bats#!t crazy.

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ck2
you mean Netflix will TRY to crack down on proxy streaming

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cobaltblue
They'll probably succeed for the most part, too. Who's going to spend their
time playing cat and mouse when they can just unsubscribe and torrent? If
you're not seeding, you're breaking the same law of unlicensed access to
content either way.

