
Ex-FB exec: The dopamine-driven feedback loops are destroying how society works - waytogo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78oMjNCAayQ
======
rwnspace
Tristram Harris [1][2] is worth listening to on these points, I'm sure many on
HN are already aware.

Without rambling too much, I'm one of those over-sensitive, slightly aspie
types that reads SSC and gets carried away with over-analysing the zeitgeist.
Uncharitably, you might say 'smart but weak-minded'. The longer I spend in
front of social media, the more and more in tatters I feel. I spent a week
entirely disconnected from the 'net a month ago and I can't stress how
restorative it was for me. Though, alarmingly, I was back in full swing soon
after I returned.

For those of you who have problems with self-control and sustaining your
attention, and think it has something to do with your browsing habits, I
highly recommend you - I urge you - to disconnect in a significant way. Of
course it's up to you what that means.

In September I gave up smoking, and the physical and psychological changes I
underwent were pretty surprising. I felt more present and in-the-moment (and
other barely-describable-but-definitely-nice feelings) than I had done in
years. Despite smoking 25 a day, I have found quitting Reddit much, much
harder; despite being convinced it's as bad for my mental health as smoking
was for my physical.

I think there's something to be said about identifying addiction patterns in
your life and exorcising them. The small amounts of progress I've made
recently have certainly felt as though they've increased my net level of
agency and free will. I wish that flowery metaphors about demons were more
readily acceptable, because software is a lot like wizardy - and it really
does feel like dark sorcery has been cast to possess the West.

[1]
[http://www.tristanharris.com/essays/](http://www.tristanharris.com/essays/)
[2] [https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/what-is-technology-
do...](https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/what-is-technology-doing-to-us)

~~~
Mouse47
Can you elaborate on how you felt after you took your week off? In particular
I'm interested in differences in sleep requirements & quality, difficulty
handling eye contact (the 'slightly aspie' stuff), and general cognition. "In
tatters": can I get a description of that also?

Only reason I ask is because I've had a similar experience...twice. Once when
moving into an apartment (no power, close proximity to roommates) and again
when on a trip (golfing all day, close proximity again). My "symptoms" include
pretty serious social anxiety and an inability to think during conversations,
inability to focus on non-interesting work, and just a general feeling of
being dumber.

~~~
tetraca
> My "symptoms" include pretty serious social anxiety and an inability to
> think during conversations, inability to focus on non-interesting work, and
> just a general feeling of being dumber.

Well, I guess I'm not alone. I feel like I've struggled with that for many
years.

~~~
md224
Sounds kind of like ADD (or ADHD-PI, as it's now called)... do you find that
coffee helps at all?

~~~
Mouse47
FWIW - I drink nearly an entire pot of coffee every day. No creamer or sugar
or anything, just black. It's indispensable IMO.

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md224
Just want to make a couple points:

\- I think everyone understands this, but it bears repeating: dopamine isn't
the problem here, as it will be involved in any rewarding behavior. The real
claim being made is that we have created technologies that give us too much
and/or the wrong kind of pleasure.

\- We should consider that "junk food" pleasure (the internet, TV, drugs,
actual junk food, etc.) can be useful as a coping mechanism for individuals
facing trauma, stress, depression, or other psychological issues. We should
consider the possibility that healthier coping mechanisms might be
insufficient or unavailable in certain situations. It might actually be a good
thing that we've come up with a portable technology (the smartphone) that can
be used on the go for short bursts of dopamine. In terms of addictions, you
could do worse.

All that being said, I agree that people can develop unhealthy relationships
with technology, and we should be working (as always) in the direction of harm
reduction.

~~~
dgudkov
Every new massively successful technology requires a new kind of social
education. When cars became popular people had to be educated to respect
pedestrian signals and not jaywalk. With the mass adoption of credit cards and
ATMs people had to be educated to keep their PINs secret and not write them
right on credit cards.

Social networks require new social education that should start with realizing
their potentials downsides which I believe is still the most difficult part.

------
eyeareque
He stated what I have felt for years, in words much better than I could.

If you struggle to disconnect from social media because you feel like you’ll
miss out on friends, remember this: If social media is the only thing
connecting you to a friend, they aren’t that good of a friend anyway. Your
true friends will not disappear if you delete Facebook.

~~~
notacoward
What's true for you is not necessarily true for others. Are you still in touch
with the people you knew in kindergarten? How many years ago was that?
Consider that some people might have two or three times that many _adult_
years of changing cities, changing jobs, changing life circumstances, each
change resulting in more people with whom staying in touch is not automatic as
it is with current classmates or coworkers. Some of them might have less free
time because of family and other obligations. Some of them might have
disabilities. Some might be more introverted than you are, which does _not_
mean that they need human contact less but that it might take more effort to
sustain it. Many people who are not exactly the same as you might find great
value in having a lightweight way to maintain those tenuous contacts. Deriding
them as not "true friends" or assuming that only "true friends" matter is very
egocentric and privileged.

------
sarreph
This was posted over a month ago [0] — and has been discussed in numerous ways
since then.

[0] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMotykw0SIk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMotykw0SIk)

EDIT — Thanks to _cpv_ (below), this is the discussion I should've linked to:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15900551](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15900551)

~~~
waytogo
This is not entirely true. Your link leads to a 56 minutes video while my
linked video is just 4 minutes and providing the relevant discussion point.

Moreover, I couldn't find any larger discussion: I searched HN with the link
you gave and found only two postings, one with 1 point and another one with 7
points and only 2 comments.

~~~
cpv
Probably this one
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15900551](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15900551)

~~~
waytogo
Thanks and this link makes much more sense (but the video is again 56 minutes
but there is a marker).

------
pwaai
This is what a lot of us have figured out and stopped using facebook. I
briefly checked in last year and was overwhelmed by the number of engagements,
marriages, newborns, relationships. The eerie thing is everybody's life looked
very similar from one another, happy, smiling instagramed filters where they
momentarily pose for selfies.

Then it hit me. I know what makes me disappointed about society today. It's
that we consider the image of success more important than reality. For
example, the mainstream collectively considers steve jobs as the ideal
entrepreneur, when when we knew he made billions off the backs of children and
women in horrible working conditions in an authoritarian government. How about
Bill Cosby, Mel Gibson, Lance Armstrong, Trump, Weinstein? How great did you
think those people were before revealing themselves to be a complete hoax?
Especially when society has been reduced to spamming a running commentary of
bullshit masquerading as insight, our social media faking as intimacy. Or is
it that we voted for this? Not with our rigged elections, but with our things,
our property, our money. I'm not saying anything new. We all know why we do
this, not because Hunger Games books make us happy but because we wanna be
sedated. Because it's painful not to pretend, because we're cowards.

~~~
anigbrowl
Wait, you mean people 'keep up with the Joneses' online as well as in real
life? Social media ia new venue for an old behavior. People who are shallow
online are shallow in real life, it's just more 3d. Likewise, people who are
thoughtful and interesting online tend to be similarly so in person.

I also have a jaundiced view of society, but it's naive to think it was great
and than got completely wrecked by social media (or TV, or jazz music, or
dancing, or...). Going down that path will just lead to being a bitter
reactionary. Instead, examine your prior premise of what you thought society
was or should be, and consider whether that was a historical actuality or a
frustrated desire. A good deal depends on whether you conceive of people to
'naturally' be good or bad and whether/how they are shaped by society or vice
versa, so your consideration should include some philosophical reading since
this is a fundamental question philosophers struggle with.

Read some history too. If you're American, I suggest 'American Nations' by
Colin Woodard, which offers a sweeping overview of the competing forces that
have shaped US society and makes for an interesting contrast to the
increasingly dysfunctional idealogical monomyth.

------
marricks
He provides good examples and reasoning for his fears, but still it'd be great
to have a larger book/discourse on this.

One of Facebook's defenses of this is that they hire psychologists etc, but
it's to better train this system.

More people coming out against this sort of thing after they've had first hand
experience is good!

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hkmurakami
For those winding who the exec is, it's Chamath, who iirc was FB's first heat
of growth.

------
monksy
I think this was evident on porn's impact on relationships, and you're just
seeing it hit mainstream via facebook (wider audience).

------
snvzz
This reminded me of Reciprocality/The Programmers' Stone, which I hadn't
heardf about in a while.

[https://www.datapacrat.com/Opinion/Reciprocality/](https://www.datapacrat.com/Opinion/Reciprocality/)

------
Noos
Amazing how Facebook is the new Dungeons and Dragons, corrupting people's
minds through (now scientific) invisible demons.

------
paulcole
Talk is cheap after you got rich off of it.

~~~
jabgrabdthrow
Can you explain your point more clearly? Are you saying that he’s not credible
because he got rich off of it?

~~~
abraae
Perhaps that he could have done more, earlier, but choose the money instead.

~~~
mitchty
Perhaps, but its easy to be outraged at people in both hindsight and outside
of the situation they're in.

We should be encouraging this kind of discussion, not trying to shame or judge
past actions incessantly.

------
callesgg
I have been saying that for a while now.

Social media is great for the individual but horrible for society.

~~~
touristtam
It's just a tool, thought. It doesn't preclude the capacity for any individual
to have a critical thinking about news and events.

~~~
callesgg
It does not preclude it but it certainly does not make it easier.

I think you suffer from the delusion that the human mind is rational and
logical. It can be, under certain limited conditions. But under most
circumstances it is a complete mess.

~~~
touristtam
> I think you suffer from the delusion that the human mind is rational and
> logical.

I don't suffer from it, not more or less than the countless text of law that
base their logic on citizens from being trustful agent in the society, but
thank you for your concern.

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thinkcomp
[https://twitter.com/AaronGreenspan/status/945716138939269120](https://twitter.com/AaronGreenspan/status/945716138939269120)

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lerie82
Oh get over yourself, this video is disgustingly egotistical. "ripping apart
the social fabric", I absolutely doubt that. This is getting way out of hand.
Social media isn't ripping any core values apart, and nothing he has said in
this video proves it.

~~~
superbrama
Just curious if you’ve any anecdotes about behavior of nouveau generation.
While not a parent myself I’ve heard many times from parent and youth peers
that the new generations are entirely lacking IRL social skills, instead
deferring their social lives entirely to their digital presence. As a result,
basic conversational skills development is limited.

~~~
lerie82
I work with many people who are still in high school or right out of high
school and none of them seem to be lacking social skills.

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tanilama
He has no proof of that

