

Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone - honzzz
http://theweek.com/articles/537430/closeminded-disdain-antivaxxers-isnt-helping-anyone

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mark_integerdsv
Strident anti-antivax here.

The main sticking point that I have experienced is that anitvaxxers refuse to
accept that their actions impact other people (children) by way of herd
immunity.

When they do see it, they are often too deep into the argument to back out.

The other issue is that the argument is often heavily laden with emotion - I
had a discussion with ageing hippy grandparents who blame a last minute MMR
vaccine on the still birth of their second grandchild.

It's not a fair argument when you are showing data and they are reacting to a
still birth. Even harder when you deeply love the people you are having the
damned argument with.

------
lolwebkit
I think it's a little unfair to lump vaccination with diet/fitness/nutrition.
The best of the university crop don't exactly rush into that field, so it's no
wonder it's perceived (and rightly so) as pseudoscience or "junk" as the
article points out.

~~~
logn
Few studies on vaccinations are properly controlled for side effects or
efficacy. And they mostly just compare their product to an older one and to
vaccines for different diseases. Additionally, they are shielded from
liability in the US.

Pharmaceutical companies have an atrocious record as far as product safety
goes. I understand the theory of vaccines is sound but that hardly means
anything when dealing with big pharma.

~~~
Fomite
The studies I've _worked on_ looking at side effects and efficacy of vaccines,
and that several vaccines have been taken off the market because of product
safety concerns will be surprised to hear this.

~~~
logn
> several vaccines have been taken off the market

This is what I mean by atrocious record. Not with vaccines specifically, but
looking across all medications.

Anyhow if you can point me to double-blind placebo controlled studies on all
the major vaccines, please do.

~~~
Fomite
Two rotavirus vaccines were suspected of causing a rare but serious side
effect (that they actually caused it at higher rates is somewhat less clear).
They were immediately pulled off the market, and replaced with a vaccine that
doesn't cause said side effect - which has been vigilantly monitored with
post-market studies ever since.

A smattering of double-blind RCTs for you:

[https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00122681](https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00122681)
(HPV)
[https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01266850](https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01266850)
(Rotavirus)
[https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01171963](https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01171963)
(also Rotavirus)

You'll find them relatively easily for novel vaccines. In another post I
mention unethical studies. Asking for new RCTs for existing vaccines used to
prevent childhood disease is _absurdly_ unethical, and would never pass muster
at any self-respecting institutional review board. The best you'll get is
comparisons between new formulations and existing vaccines, ala
[https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00861744](https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00861744)
because there's no reason to put a swath of children at risk of preventable
childhood diseases when we have working vaccines with very little evidence of
serious side effects.

~~~
logn
I think doctors will need to get over these ethical issues before immunization
could ever be compulsory. It's just as unethical to force a treatment that's
not been properly tested on a population, as it is to not expose them to that
treatment.

------
Fomite
As an epidemiologist, what the author doesn't get is that we _have_ been
empathetic. We have been patient. We have explained, using everything from
complex math to simple metaphor how vaccination works to protect populations.
We have spent millions of dollars and person-hours of valuable research time
chasing down the ghosts of anti-vaxx fantasy to make sure there's nothing to
them. We have let VAERS become irrevocably contaminated with their crackpot
reports, making it useless for its actual purpose.

We catered to their whims. Their shifting goalposts and their conspiracies. We
refused their unethical study demands while listening to them malign those we
could conduct.

We asked nicely. In the meantime, they propagate beliefs that endanger
children.

That wears down empathy and patience after a few decades.

~~~
logn
Wakefield was one of your own and VAERS takes reports from the medical
community.

Vaccine rates are pretty high. If they're effective then they should be
effective for the 90%+ people taking them.

Meanwhile Ebola with >50% mortality is raging and the medical community is up
in arms over measles.

~~~
smt88
This comment proves that you don't understand what you're talking about. I'm
not trying to be condescending -- I've learned a lot about this recently due
to the outbreak, and I encourage you to do some reading as well.

Some vaccines are very effective at the individual level. Others are not, and
so the safety of any individual is _reliant_ on herd immunity. So when you say
"they should be effective", I don't know if you mean to prevent an
individual's illness or to prevent an outbreak. Either way, vaccines are not
just intended to be effective for the individual -- they're intended to
protect an entire society.

As far as Ebola: the medical community is certainly up in arms over that, as
well. It's a huge crisis, and millions are being poured into its treatment and
prevention.

The problem with Ebola is that there's a massive cultural barrier. Many of the
most at-risk people are afraid of vaccines, and some of them totally
misunderstand how Ebola is spread. Those two situations are getting better,
but it's much harder of a situation to solve.

The reason you're reading so much about measles is that it's affecting a
wealthy, educated country, and it's directly caused by misinformation from the
"anti-vaxxer" movement. It's alarming because it's a backslide, and we know
it's preventable because we did such a good job preventing it for so long.

