
College is a waste of time and money for kids - ranparas
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cfb4d37a-d907-11dc-8b22-0000779fd2ac.html
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run4yourlives
I was with him right until he say not to travel. Travel is the single biggest
step in developing a proper perspective of life in this world, and what part
you'll choose to play in the future. At 25, you can tell if someone has
traveled or not by having a 15 minute conversation with them.

The traveled ones are always much more rational in thought, and open in mind,
and aware of the possibilities. Non traveled folk tend to be more rigid,
narrow in though and unable to grasp concepts that may be foriegn to their
history.

As to the rest, my biggest beef is that he assumes all people are born
entrepreneurs - even if he says otherwise. One must remember that although
college can be a bore for a bright individual, it can be a saving grace for a
person that is, well average.

~~~
mpc
I'm sorry but I disagree. Traveling is certainly something that is worthwhile,
but it's hardly the determining factor in one's personal development that
you're making it out to be.

I've been to a lot of places, and I still value things like the books that
I've read, personal relationships, real experience etc etc a lot more.

Sometimes all travel contributes to is pretentiousness.

~~~
ardit33
sorry, but taking a cruise to bahamas,or a two weeks trip to europe doesn't
make one a "well traveled" being. Living in a different country for a while,
it will open you a whole world of differnt perspective, and experience things
that you just don't when visiting a place for a few days.

yes, just the fact of knowing a foreign language, (well), tells a lot about a
person.

~~~
uuilly
Agreed. It really depends on the kind of travel. Watching other people commute
is not mind expanding. That said moving somewhere totally different and
working there for a year is.

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josefresco
I've found that college is great for the 'pluggers' in life. Those kids you
remember from high school who asked question after boring question and spent
hours on their home work while you spent class time hacking your graphing
calculator and spent study hall exploring your high school's network.

Sure they got better grades than you, but instead of an A on your test you got
a B- and worked 10x less to get it.

College is also great for the socially motivated who love to party, 'hook up'
and generally spend the entire day trying to sleep the previous night's
craziness off and plan for the upcoming night debauchery.

~~~
ardit33
Believe it or not, you can learn, get decent grades, party and get laid, and
have scholarhips all at the same time.

Those people that skip this, are soreley missing a great experience of their
life.

Remember, work will be there for the rest of your life. Don't just rush into
it. From 24 to 64, that's 40 years or working for most people. you can start
your startup just as well as 25, as you could at 20, but probably you would be
much smarter at that age.

~~~
curi
it amuses me that people advocate the importance of college -- supposedly an
educational institution -- based in part on parties and sex. and in part based
on avoiding work.

if you can pay for college, you could pay less to not work or go to college.
and still party and have sex, if that's what you care about.

~~~
ardit33
It amuses me how some people say that college is not worth their time and
money. Maybe you stop taking easy clases? Get the challenging ones? Don't
overpay for school?

Nobody is measuring the importance of school, on how much fun you have with
it, but what I am saying is that you can learn a lot, and yet have a great
time, and yes even fun. Unless you are sociophobe, scrooge, or something, most
humans want some fun on the side.

I thought CS was not that difficult, so I decided to minor in math, which I
found it not that difficult so I challenged myself even more, and I decided to
minor in Physics, and here I met my match. A hard ass professor, that would
teach a lot, but it was almost impossible to get an A. My first ever class,
where I felt no matter how much effort I put into it, I couldn't get an A. It
taught me about humility, and learning my limitations.

And, yes, I did all that, plus lot's of volunteering, helping with alumni
affairs, while having a part time job (washing dishes, and then just a lab
proctor) at the same time.

There is nothing more awesome when you learn a lot, and yet can have fun and
get laid at the same time.

To all you say that college is waste of time:

1\. Maybe you should study something that you are going to get a great return
out of it, or it will be challenging enough.

2\. You might want to check if you have problems getting socially adjusted.

So, unless you quit school and become a millionare by now, you have no cred on
saying college is a waste of time. College is a waste of time for many, b/c
they don't use it. To those that are smart enough, it is a great learning
experience. To those that think are too smart for college, maybe they are not
taking the right/classes or programs. If you are a genius, what prevents you
from finishing it in two years, get a masters, get a phd. and become the next
albert einstein, invent cold fusion, a cure for H1V or something great? You
can do that in college. It allows very smart people, to have access to great
equipment, grant money and other resarch, things that you probably wont have
in your own basement.

~~~
curi
i didn't say college is a waste of time, i pointed out one way the pro-college
arguments are flawed. repeating myself in different words: some arguments
advocate a lifestyle (college) in part for certain benefits, that are easily
available from rival lifestyles. so they are not an advantage over college's
rivals. so they should be left out of the discussion.

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thinkcomp
I could, and did, write a book
(<http://www.aarongreenspan.com/authoritas.html>) about this subject, namely,
why the American educational system is broken. I found college to be
particularly difficult, but even so, I still think that James Altucher is
wrong. Not only is his analysis wrong, but his facts are wrong. Unbelievably
expensive though it may be, I know of no college that costs $400,000 over four
years. Students are not cleanly divided into "the well-rounded generalists"
and "the focused entrepreneurs." There are considerable virtues to liberal
arts education, even if Mr. Altucher is too dense and narrow-minded to
appreciate them.

~~~
whacked_new
I am repeatedly amazed at what kinds of people leave comments here.

------
dusklight
College gives kids thousands of other kids to hang out with, at a critical
point in their lives when they are just entering into adulthood.

College gives kids a chance to create their own social identity, as seen
through the eyes of their peers, rather than their parents.

If you are a social recluse, and spend most of your college years hiding
behind your computer screen, then yeah, you might as well not go.

If you recognize that human beings are herd animals, and that in order to
learn how to be a leader in the herd, you need to have a herd to practice on
...

I learnt some really important life lessons in college, most of them outside
of class. I heartily recommend it. Challenge your expectations of what you can
and can't do. You may be surprised by how much more you can grow.

~~~
yummyfajitas
>I learnt some really important life lessons in college, most of them outside
of class.

What makes you think you would not have learned the same things (or equally
valuable things) if you did not go to college, but did stop living with your
parents?

~~~
dusklight
As yters points out correctly, the real world is not like a college
environment, where you are surrounded by other people your own age.

There is something about being surrounded by other people just as clueless,
inexperienced, and eager to experiment as you, that stimulates the creation of
convention-defying ideas.

That said I would like to think I did not need college to become an
intelligent, aware, adult. But it sure did help and it sure was fun.

------
copenja
Look. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to live.

People need to stop focusing on the black and white and become aware of the
greyscale.

~~~
wumi
there. is. no. box.

~~~
iamelgringo
I thought it was, "There is no spoon"

~~~
dejb
I thought it was - 'there is no cake'.

~~~
tac-tics
Delicious Cake. I must eat it.

~~~
Xichekolas
The cake is a lie.

------
henning
I've taught myself math and computer science topics by myself from books, and
I've learned math and computer science in classes, and I can say that you make
much faster progress and have far fewer foggy, unclear areas if you have
access to a professor.

That's assuming you really take advantage of the teaching assistants,
professor, and books out there. If you just party and take sociology classes,
sure, college is going to mostly be a waste.

~~~
msteigerwalt
If by access to a professor, you mean someone who knows the material extremely
well and can help you with questions or steer you in the right direction, you
can get that for free from IRC.

I've been leeching off my friends' college educations for years, and although
I'd agree that it would be impossible to learn some things (like advanced
programming topics) strictly from books, someone who knows the material and
exactly how to explain things to me is just as good as a traditional
instructor.

It's also better training for the real world, where I don't have time to take
a course on everything I need to know.

~~~
henning
for free off IRC? not the things I wanted to learn.

------
krschultz
Hes off the mark by a long shot.

Is college right for everyone? No, and on both sides of the equation. A very
small group of people are too smart for it, get too constrained by it, etc.
There is a much larger group of people who are not smart enough for it, or
don't work hard enough to get there. For everyone else, it makes sense. To say
that you won't make up the money (and he says 200,000 - 400,000, that is a
50,000 to 100,000 a year college! There are only about dozen that expensive!
I'm in one of the top 20 in the country and it would cost me 120,000 for 4
years coming from out of state, if not for a scholarship), is ludicrous. I'm
going to work from the age of 25 to the age of 65 unless I do something
spectacular and can retire early, which MOST PEOPLE DON'T. So for most people
it is 120,000 divided by 40 years, or $3,000 a year more they would have to
make in order for it to be worth it, obviously most college grads are better
off money wise if they go. And staying in state is even cheaper. His point is
kind of ridiculous, just because he didn't like college, doesn't mean that he
should recommend against it. I sure feel bad for his kids who will be trying
to make it big on their new version of MySpace when all their friends graduate
and start making real money.

~~~
rcoder
$50,000 per year is not actually that high in the grand scheme of things as a
total cost to attend a private college, since most undergrads depend heavily
on their parents for financial support.

If you subtract a base tuition of $35,000 from that, you're left with $15,000
per year as total living expenses. That's barely over $1200, and has to cover
not only rent and food, but textbooks, computers, and other costs of campus
life. Even assuming your kid doesn't do much partying, or need access to a
car, $15k is hardly a lavish annual budget.

~~~
krschultz
Yea, but that would assume a base tuition of 35,000, which there is no reason
to spend. Go to a state school if the money is an issue, out of state to Penn
State, considered one of the more expensive state schools, is 24,000 a year.
That leaves 26,000 a year for living expenses. In state is even less. At my
school it is 18,000 out of state and 7,000 in state and we're top 25
nationwide in both of my majors. My apartment is one of the nicer ones on
campus and it is $700 a month, plus $500 for food and expenses, plus 2,000 for
books and supplies, I'm barely up to 35,000 and that is with generous
allouances and an expensive apartment. In state you could be doing it for
20,000 a year. The people who claim college is outrageous are far from the
ground level. I don't know anyone who couldn't work it out by taking loans and
going to a state school, everyone quotes these private schools and their
prices but that is a whole different ball game. The reality is that college is
not all that expensive in the short term, and it is nothing in the long term.

~~~
rcoder
Going to a small, private college is also a completely different experience
than attending a large state school. The entire pedagogical style is
difference: small (<15 students) conference courses and one-on-one meetings
with profs are the norm, rather than the exception.

I'm not saying that private schools make sense a strict cost/benefit level; if
you read my other posts in this thread, you'll see that I'm nearly as dubious
as the author of the original article about the real economic benefits of a
four-year degree. I just don't think that $200k is an unusually high total
cost for four years of college.

------
rcoder
I think most of the comments here are missing the key argument in this
article: namely that in addition to college being a poor fit for many
potential students, there are some much better, more productive ways that
young people could spend the time in the years immediately following high
school.

The suggestions to encourage your kid to practice one skill, or start a
business, are spot-on, at least from an economic POV. Learning a trade and
having some business experience are much more effective at increasing your
future potential earnings than a liberal arts education.

Personally, I dropped out after my freshman year to go work for a startup I've
had a great time working in IT since then, and consistently out-earned my
friends who stayed in school, even now that they've had 4-6 years in the
workforce to catch up on experience.

That being said, I think that there is still a strong argument to be made for
people _eventually_ attending college. I still look forward to college as
something I'll do in the future as a sort of "working vacation." I.e., just
like faculty take a sabbatical to focus on their research, or spend time with
their family, I hope to take a couple of years off to devote myself to
intense, full-time study of some subject other than computers.

~~~
timr
Oh, blah. I'll grant you that people (in this country) would be better served
by slowing down a bit, but I wouldn't encourage a high school kid to start a
business instead of going to college.

Maybe it's a good idea for a kid to work on his "startup" when he's barely old
enough to shave, but probably not. The chances of success aren't higher when
you're young and under-educated (likely the opposite), and you'll be
squandering the one time in your life when you're allowed to get away with
things and make mistakes.

Don't want to go to college? Fine. Travel the world. Have adventures. Play in
a band. Make friends. Meet women. You're not likely to get the chance later,
and you'll be a more compelling, charismatic person for the experience. Then
go to college.

Once you've graduated, you'll have the rest of your life to start companies
(and the charisma and friends you've picked up will help you on your way).

------
menloparkbum
I don't think he goes far enough. Looking back, my university experience was
indeed sort of a waste of time. However, the time I spent in college was
orders of magnitude better than the previous four years of high school.

-edit-

Ok, I just closely read the piece instead of just skimming it. I do think
college can be a waste of time for many people. However, the suggestion to
instead outsource Facebook/MySpace application development to India is
ridiculous. Also, what college costs $400,000? Ivy League tops out at about
$40K/yr. UC Berkeley is about $9K per year.

------
tlrobinson
If all you want to get out of college is to learn to program or other "trade"
skills, then yeah it's probably a waste of time, but that's not what college
is all about (unless you go to a vocational school)

~~~
aswanson
Seriously. Imagine if children treated kindergarten with the same attitude
that some people treat college with, the trade school approach to education.
They'd never get off the dime.

------
myoung8
I agree with him, but I don't think the alternatives he proposed are
reasonable for most people.

------
geebee
This is a great article, even though I disagree with most of it. I think it's
a great article because the conventional wisdom about college does need to be
challenged. Just like the notion that you have to attend a prestigious college
to be successful needs to be debunked, the notion that you have to attend
college at all should be challenged.

I'd agree wholeheartedly with anyone who said that college should _not_ be a
default choice. There are all kinds of amazing opportunities for learning now
that don't require a degree. He had me while he was arguing that college can
be a big waste of time for a lot of people - but he starts to lose me when he
starts to argue _against_ college.

Personally, I have my doubts about anyone learning advanced math or physics
without an intellectual environment similar to the one you'll get at college.
I learned from my peers in a study group at least as much as from my
professors. I suppose you don't strictly have to be enrolled - and maybe you
could view webcasts and form a general study group outside the university -
but that would be an argument against a formal degree, not an argument against
a college education.

~~~
geebee
One thing to add - he's not totally off base about the 400K price tag. If you
could earn 50K/year as a high school grad, that's 200K in lost earnings
(though it would be taxed). Stanford's tuition is about 40K/year now, right?
So there's another 160K. Not too far off (I wouldn't count living expenses,
because those would be incurred regardless of whether you were in college).

A high school grad with no skills isn't going to earn 50K a year as a
dishwasher. But someone smart enough to get through Computer Science at MIT
might easily blow through the 50K/year estimate. So the opportunity cost could
actually be much higher than 400K.

~~~
cdr
I think including potential wages is at least a little weaselly. Besides the
fact that you can work while going to school, get scholarships, etc, you could
just as easily say that any lost earning potential while taking classes should
quickly be made up by the difference in your wages from having a degree.

Even if you do, 50K/year as a high school graduate (at least in the US) is
being pretty optimistic. I don't think most of my friends in non-technical
programs didn't even make that out of college. The average starting salary for
a BS CS grad even is probably still only around 50K.

~~~
geebee
This is why the right answer is "it depends". And it's why I liked the
original article, even though I disagree with the conclusion that college is a
waste of time. It might be a waste of time, it might be useful but not worth
the cost, and it might be enormously useful and well worth the cost.

I have a feeling a really good hacker who can do consulting work, or join a
startup, could easily earn more than 50K, and might be ahead of college grads
by the time they do enter the workforce. Think of it this way - you might make
more with PhD than a BS, but you won't necessarily earn more than you would
with a BS+6years experience, and even if you do, you have to account for lost
earnings.

Of course, High School only vs. BS is a very very different equation from BS
only vs Ph.D. Personally, I do think that smart people who want a career in a
technology related field would be well advised to attend college.

------
NoBSWebDesign
As you peeps have pointed out, 400k is ridiculous. I go to an expensive
private college, and it's on the order of 120 for 4 years (though it's
actually a 5-year school).

And if his kids are really entrepreneurial, as he claims, then they'll have
the motivation to apply for scholarships like I did. I have received
absolutely no financial help from my parents, and yet have accumulated very
little debt.

I have learned most of my knowledge by teaching myself, and generally goof off
during class if I even go (and no, that doesn't put me into the B group). But
I've also been exposed to an incredible variety of people and built a huge
network of friends and acquaintances in almost every industry.

Another point he seems to be missing is that to make a Facebook or Myspace app
go viral, you need an initial network of users, typically your own friends. I
hope his kids have fun trying to promote their app to all their high school
friends who have gone off to college and lost contact.

I think what makes me most upset about this article, though, is that he's not
using his views to make his own decisions, he's using them to make his kids'
decisions. I feel really bad for his kids.

~~~
Retric
A) When you look at the high numbers you need to ignore scholarships as many
don't qualify. B) Its a 5 year school so 30 * 5 = 150k not 120k C) You could
be making a lot of money if you worked instead of spending all that time in
school.

Finally, you could get significant returns if you invested your first years
tuition by the end of 5 years.

~~~
cdr
The fifth year is quite possibly a year of work-study, like in my degree.
Either that or adding a second degree/masters, which is going to increase
earnings potential hugely.

I have seen statistics before about how having a degree positively influences
your earnings potential, but I have yet to see anything but "feelings" from
those claiming going to college has a negative effect.

If we're going on anecdotes, I seriously doubt I could have made that much
going into work straight out of high school, and I seriously doubt there are
many people that could.

I would bet there's a more people that could qualify for significant
scholarships than could make significant money going straight into work.

~~~
Retric
I think there is value to looking at anecdotes because the average collage
student is better connected and more intelligent than those who skip it. Most
of my friends have collage degrees. Of those who don't one was making
120k/year before he died. One charges 100$+ per hour and is constantly booked.
And the last guy is 29 and makes 140k / year at yahoo. IMO a large reason for
the disparity in lifetime earnings between those with a collage degree and
those without are the type of people who go to collage.

For most people staying in school is probably a good idea. But, when your
options are to stay in school or drop out and make 70+k / year staying in
school seems less useful. Would these people make more money in 5 years with a
collage degree well possibly, but they are making good money now and
investments compound with time so it would have to be a huge increase to be
worth it.

PS: Doctors get paid a lot latter in life but on average they don’t retire
younger than most people.

------
wallflower
I read an article once that suggested that colleges and universities are part
of a mafia-type organization that extorts parents/students to pay high tuition
fees...otherwise the student won't be able to get a decent white-collar job as
an adult (the whole college degree required deal)

~~~
pchristensen
Nah, there's just not a good way to rate and rank potential job candidates
without actually taking the time to get to know them. Finishing college is
just an imperfect proxy for being smart and working hard, and companies use it
as a baseline because it puts the onus on students/employees to attain. If
there was a way for companies to more accurately rank candidates (without
actually requiring more work on the company's part), they'd use that instead.
Universities are more than happy to facilitate this.

See also [http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2007/10/the-
greatest...](http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2007/10/the-greatest-
ma.html)

------
atlacatl
He says, "I can’t remember anything good coming from my freshman year – other
than starting a business with a few of my classmates, which inspired me for
subsequent businesses."

So, he found his calling in College? A waste of time? Could he have started
this first business without attending college?

------
msteigerwalt
I like how the article suggests that the cost of developing a viral Facebook
application is $200 for outsourcing to India.

I agree with the premise of the article, though. Except for the $400,000 price
tag. Where does that come from?

------
nextmoveone
I agree, I'm glad I haven't wasted time on college, learning everything myself
has been more beneficial. In certain cases, like that of doctors or lawyers
college is essential!

------
dejb
So people who live on farms in France don't have the internet? I think he
there still might be a flame.

------
eloisius
Great piece. Helps re-encourage me that I'm not throwing my life away.

