
Ami, a tiny cube on wheels that French 14-year-olds can drive - davidodio
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/11/ami-the-tiny-cube-on-wheels-that-french-14-year-olds-can-drive
======
mastazi
For context, in many European countries (including Italy where I grew up) 14
year olds can drive mopeds or moto scooters up to 50cc and limited to a max
speed of 45km/h, however most of the times[1] those have post-market
modifications installed, either at home or by unscrupulous mechanics, in order
to go much faster.

A large portion of the public opinion in those countries see those mini-cars
as a safer 4-wheel alternative.

I'm not saying that those mini-cars are safe or that they are great for the
environment, just putting things into perspective for people who are not
familiar with the situation in Europe.

[1] I don't have official statistics but anecdotally I can say that as a
teenager, almost everyone I knew had modified their moped or scooter.

~~~
turbinerneiter
The 45km/h are pretty stupid. Of it was 60, there would be less pressure to
mod.

With 45km/h you are seen as an obstacle by cars and they overtake you in
dangerous ways.

~~~
NiceWayToDoIT
In EU by the law, limit inside towns and cities is 50km/h - so it is a spot on
speed.

By the way in cities average speed is very low. For instance in London the
average speed within a mile of the city center dropped 1.22mph from an average
of 6.35mph in 2016 to just 5.13mph in 2017.

[https://fleetworld.co.uk/average-driving-speeds-plummet-
in-u...](https://fleetworld.co.uk/average-driving-speeds-plummet-in-uks-major-
cities/#:~:text=The%20study%20by%20In%2Dcar,%E2%80%93%20a%20fall%20of%2019%25).

~~~
frostburg
The issue stems from the fact that in Italy if you actually drive at merely 50
km/h in average roads you're perceived as an antisocial menace.

~~~
amatecha
Seems same in Bosnia, I traveled there and ppl said I should follow the speed
limit at all times due to likelihood of police punishing with big fines. Uhh..
that didn't last long. I was getting tailgated and passed angrily by basically
every single person on the road, and even when I did get pulled over by the
police (wasn't speeding or violating any driving rule there -- I read up on
them), they just sent me on my way once I acted totally oblivious and also
they could barely understand my English... heh! Too much hassle to try to get
a bribe out of me I guess?

~~~
Symbiote
A car I was in was stopped three times in 10 minutes the moment it crossed
into the "other" part of Sarajevo. Just before, the driver suggested I watch
his speed, which was 5km/h below the limit the whole time. The police were
simply taking money from the other ethnic group.

~~~
Symbiote
Someone downvoted this, so I'll provide this quote from the UK FCO:

> Taxi drivers from the Republika Srpska might be unwilling to drive to a
> destination in the Federation, and vice versa.

[https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/bosnia-and-
herzegov...](https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/bosnia-and-
herzegovina/safety-and-security)

Or Wikipedia

> police conduct around the Inter-Entity Boundary Line separating the two
> entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina
> and Republika Srpska, had been the "greatest obstacle to freedom of
> movement", including intimidation and arbitrary fines.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina)

There are plenty of anecdotes similar to mine on TripAdvisor etc.

------
echopom
Really surprised with the the comments here.

Ami has never been created for teenagers , it was created by Peugeot to
compete in the 'Licence Free EV' space.

Most owners of those vehicles are adult living in Urban Areas, not '14 years
old'.

It's sad people keep focusing on 'Headlines' these days instead of taking a
step back and actually reading the article...

~~~
searchableguy
> According to the company’s data, about half of all Ami buyers have one car
> and at least two children. _More than 40% of those driving Amis are under
> 18._ A majority of users say they like it because it is green, while for
> more than 30% of users, not taking public transport – in a time of Covid –
> was an important factor.

~~~
colonwqbang
Those numbers seem extremely unlikely. I would think that almost no 17-year
old owns a car and also has two children. That would mean that people with one
or no child, or not owning another car, account for only 10% of Ami drivers?

~~~
scbrg
Uhm. It could simply mean that people let their kids drive it. Buyers and
drivers are not necessarily the same group.

~~~
stan_rogers
Particularly buyers of things that cost 6000€.

------
globular-toast
A step in the wrong direction. Children should be riding bicycles. Adults
should be too. But if you get them in cars at 14 it's never going to happen.
Another enemy of other road users is born.

~~~
gambiting
I disagree that it's a move in the wrong direction. When I got a scooter at 15
it suddenly opened up my world - I could ride it to other cities and meet
distant friends after school, and just get a lot more things done without
having to involve my parents. It was an incredible mobility improvement for a
young person, and I imagine this will serve the exact same purpose.

And I rode a bicycle at the same time - me and my friends used to cycle 2-3
times per week, 100-120km per day, just for fun. But that's not a good option
to go with friends to a cinema, when the nearest one is 45 minute bicycle ride
away along major roads. A scooter improved that ability immensly, and I'm sure
a small car will as well.

~~~
qayxc
And it never occurred to you that maybe the whole concept of lack of public
transportation was at fault?

I didn't get my drivers licence until I was 23 and I didn't miss out on
anything, because I could (and did) travel the whole country via train and bus
- despite growing up in the countryside. The train station was just under 2km
away and that helped immensely and had regular service (2 times an hour) to
the nearest cities.

~~~
gambiting
>>And it never occurred to you that maybe the whole concept of lack of public
transportation was at fault?

Sure it did. What kind of power does a 15 year old have, exactly, to influence
it though? A scooter has improved my mobility when I was 15. Going on the
internet and saying that the lack of public transport is at fault would have
not.

Besides, we do have really good public transport! It's just that even with
buses running every 30 minutes it can still take a long time to get anywhere
if you live couple towns over from where you need to be. So it's like.....45
minute bike ride, 15 minute scooter ride, or 1.5 hour bus ride because you
have to swap buses twice? Not everything works for everyone, not everyone
lives in the major cities. I didn't live out in the countryside either, but in
a collection of smaller towns 4-5km apart, 10k population each.

~~~
ajdlinux
> What kind of power does a 15 year old have, exactly, to influence it though?
> A scooter has improved my mobility when I was 15. Going on the internet and
> saying that the lack of public transport is at fault would have not.

True, of course.

But it's not about the individual 15 year old scooter owner who makes an
individual decision to get a scooter, when they live outside the city, in a
situation where it benefits them greatly, etc etc.

It's about the systemic impact of legalising a class of vehicles and thus
adding hundreds of thousands more vehicles to the road network. People in
situations where they could have happily stayed on public transport instead
move to driving these small vehicles, which aren't as bad as full-sized cars
but still consume resources and occupy valuable road and parking space. Fewer
public transport users means fewer voters who care about public transport, and
more who care about roads. That's not a step in the right direction.

(I grew up in rural Australia, I understand why you need private motorised
transport to get around - but plenty of the customers who are going to be
buying this Ami vehicle are going to be in extremely dense urban areas.)

~~~
sokoloff
People’s lives, especially the adolescent phase thereof, are short. I don’t
blame them one bit for maximizing their mobility.

If you want public transport adopted, make it effective and reasonably
efficient and people will use it. Crimping people’s mobility in the meantime
to garner support for better public transport at some time in the distant
future is not likely to work well.

------
Misteur-Z
Disclaimer: lived in Paris for 20 years, specifically got my motorcycle
license to avoid traffic jams and parking tickets 5 years ago.

Quick facts about Paris:

\- there is motorcycles and scooters everywhere

\- most people make trips way superior to 5km to go to work or even to go out

\- no one can really afford parking his car outside of it's own neighborhood,
because you don't have discounts then => 35 to 50€ a day!

You can buy an 125cc scooter with heated grips and a nice warm rain cover for
around 3000-4000€ (new) / 1500€ (old) with a 200-300km range and you don't
need to pay parking anywhere (yet).

IMO French automakers are lost and this car has almost market. They know they
can't compete with Tesla in the near feature on real electric cars. It's way
too expensive, for sure it's not targeted at 14-18yo in Paris "intra-muros".
Its only features are you don't have to wear a helmet / protects you from
rain. It has almost the size of a gas Smart ForTwo without the speed and range
to go on a weekend trip.

------
revax
Ami is small car, much like a cart, only 20000 are produced per year. It's
hard to make a profit with a such low volume.

Only 250 parts are used compared to 30 000 for a standard car.

Source (in French) [https://www.caradisiac.com/la-citroen-ami-la-meilleure-
amie-...](https://www.caradisiac.com/la-citroen-ami-la-meilleure-amie-des-
comptables-185235.htm)

~~~
Rexxar
> only 20000 are produced per year.

They start selling it this year. How such a number could bring anything to the
discussion ? We don't know if it will be 0 next year (if it's failure) or
200000 (if it's a success).

------
brianweet
In Amsterdam,NL we've had these for a long time:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canta_(vehicle)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canta_\(vehicle\))
And the more recent, fancier Biro: [https://biro.nl](https://biro.nl) You're
allowed to drive them with a moped licence, available for 16 y/o. Don't think
they cause many accidents though, I'd say safer than a moped.

They're causing issues as you are allowed to park them on the sidewalk (which
is already crowded by bikes).

~~~
dgellow
Ah, that's exactly what I wanted to say. I was in Amsterdam ~2 months ago and
it fascinating to see those small cars around.

------
NiceWayToDoIT
It is interesting indeed, €6000 (~$7100 ) for 45km/h and 70km range is very
affordable price and very good for many EU cities where people daily do not
drive more than 70km daily.

[https://setis.ec.europa.eu/system/files/Driving_and_parking_...](https://setis.ec.europa.eu/system/files/Driving_and_parking_patterns_of_European_car_drivers-
a_mobility_survey.pdf)

Price can be a significant step toward transport electrification.

~~~
Zealotux
6000€ is the price of a driving license plus a very nice first car in France,
I don't really see who's the target for this product.

~~~
hrktb
driving license nets you 1000€ at least and a 5000 for a car will only work
for a mildly beaten up low end manual transmission gasoline car.

That doesn’t seem like a good comparison, perhaps the tweezy would be closer
(smaller/easier to park while a tad less comfortable, still electric and “two-
wheel” category)

~~~
user5994461
Insurance for a car is 1000 a year, possibly 2000 a year for a young driver.

I bet the insurance for that car is much cheaper.

------
helsinkiandrew
I can see how these sound very attractive (particularly to a 14 year old). But
we really need to make cities and city transportation better so these kind of
vehicles aren't needed.

~~~
dvdkon
In my opinion, public transport in cities is already good enough (it could be
better, sure, but it's good enough that most people won't want to buy this
"car"). A small "sub-car" that can be driven by younger people would make much
more sense in rural areas, where public transport might exist, but maybe only
once every few hours with the stop a 30 minute walk from the village.

Marketing it as a city vehicle, especially in dense Paris, seems strange to
me. The only people who are going to be attracted to it in that setting are
those who really hate public transport.

~~~
fredophile
What cities do you regularly ride public transportation in? I've used public
transportation in several major North American cities and disagree that public
transportation is good enough. Most cities can do a lot to improve their
public transit infrastructure.

~~~
GordonS
North America is unusual in that respect. For most, or at least a lot, of
cities across Europe and Asia, there is good public transport.

~~~
ImprobableTruth
For some definition of 'good'. In Germany it's usable enough that you can live
without it, but only if you don't really value your time and comfort. From my
personal experience, only the Netherlands has a city structure and public
transportation that truly makes a car redundant.

~~~
rsynnott
It's all relative. Living in Dublin, I'm always amazed at how good the public
transport is in German cities when I visit (in particular, it's punctual
enough that "take this tram, then wait three minutes and take that tram, then
wait four minutes and take that train" type directions often work!).

And then again, I'm always amused when visiting Americans think Dublin's awful
public transport is good :)

------
legulere
I don’t understand why they put the speed limit of it at 45 km/h instead of 50
km/h. What makes traffic dangerous is people driving at different speeds which
leads to overtaking. The same issue exists with pedelecs that are allowed to
go 25km/h when 30 is a common speed limit.

~~~
mrweasel
50 km/h is also to low. 90 km/h is pretty much the minimum for a car. Most
major cities will have a good number of people coming in on highways. 45km/h
is the lowest legal speed for a Danish highways, but that’s still pretty
dangerous and you’d be a hassel to the other drivers, which is also illegal.

I can get work either via a highway, or by driving through the center of town.
Besided adding to trafic in the city center, I’m also looking at an additional
30 minute drive.

In my mind by only designing these tiny city cars to urban driving,
manufactures are limiting them to the extend that they are bound to fail.
Instead, with minor tweaks, they could remove full size cars and help lower
pollution levels.

~~~
Symbiote
This is the car version of a "knallert" (motor scooter / moped).

There are other vehicles for driving on the highway, but in Europe they need
crash protection and so on.

------
tom_mellior
Oh great. More cars. Just what Paris needs. Also, it's an alternative to a
scooter, but much bigger and more massive. This is "safer" \-- for the driver.
Less so for the people they will hit.

~~~
marmaduke
That’s what I thought. Why not make a cheap usable cargo bike? I can carry
both kids on mine
([https://www.lepetitporteur.com](https://www.lepetitporteur.com))

~~~
alexisread
For many 14yos the attraction is that a car helps you climb the social ladder-
you're perceived as that much more attractive. Bikes don't quite cut it for
that.

You raise a great point though, cargo bikes are much more expensive than
conventional ones. I don't see why either as I'm guessing there would be a big
market at a lower price point (£500 vs £300 for a conventional rather than
£2500), hence the scale to make them cheap.

(Thanks for link BTW, not seen this bike before)

~~~
marmaduke
> helps you climb the social ladder- you're perceived

As a parent of kids a bit younger, I aspire to help them avoid this sort of
thing entirely

Cargo bikes don’t have to be expensive (Yuba Komba is 999€) except that they
are, in the long tail format, 50 to 100% more steel, and because of the
weight, drivetrain and brakes have to be good as well. A 250€ cargo bike would
be an injury waiting to happen

As it happens, the bike I linked is a nice Chromoly frame, disc brakes, hub
gears etc. If you look at other bikes with similar components you’d be hard
pressed to beat the price.

------
rahimnathwani
Similar to the cars mentioned in this thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23738395](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23738395)

usrusr's comment in that thread: "And less obvious ones, like
[https://www.ellenator-gmbh.de/](https://www.ellenator-gmbh.de/) which exists
solely to exploit a legal loophole to get something that is arguably more
dangerous than a car into the hands of people who are not licensed to drive a
car."

~~~
peterburkimsher
I'm 30 years old and don't have a driving licence. Many people learn to drive
because their parents paid for lessons. Mine did not.

In university and since, I lived in many different countries. I haven't had a
long-term visa. Currently I'm in New Zealand. Here it takes 2 years to get a
driving licence. If my residency visa is approved, I'll be able to start
learning to drive. For now, I use an old rusty bicycle that I bought from a
scrapyard for $20. It would be nice to have a vehicle like that in Paris,
because it would cover my head when it rains.

Legislation was intended to educate and protect people, and that is good. The
problem is that the educators realised they had a captive market, ramped up
prices, and now entire market segments (foreigners, young people) are
excluded. Compared to the dangers of other mobility options (e.g. scooters), I
think the Ami is much safer. It would be interesting to see how it is treated
in other areas of law (parking fines, collisions) compared to bicycles.

~~~
searchableguy
I wish for good public transportation. Many Asian countries seem to get it
right and it's way less risky statistically. My friend in HK love talking
about the buses and trains. They are always on time.

Right now, I would prefer to have this over my bike or a scooter because
Indian roads are such a hell. Many people here don't even have driving license
and jaywalking is common. A new emerging trend is people sticking to their
phone while _driving_.

I would feel much safer. Even my dad get into almost accidents a few times
monthly. He has been driving for decades and always maintain a stable speed of
under 45kmph.

~~~
peterburkimsher
I use public transport as well as a bicycle!

In Auckland there's a busway with regular services to the city every 5-10
minutes. The connecting bus to the house goes once every 30 minutes. By bike
it takes 10 minutes.

To go from the house to the office would take 1.5 hours by bus. By bicycle it
takes 20 minutes.

Similar story in Kaohsiung: the MRT wasn't near my house, so I'd ride a bike
to go to it. Other people there drive motor scooters (also dangerous) to and
from the MRT. It was somewhat romantic to ride on the back of my girlfriend's
scooter, hugging her from behind. I know we would've appreciated the privacy
of an enclosed Ami though.

------
krtkush
> There’s a rudimentary heater, and if the idea of letting a 14-year-old loose
> on it seems unnerving, Krygier points out that unlike with a scooter – the
> most likely alternative for many of the Ami’s younger potential customers –
> you get the stability of four wheels on a proper chassis, and are safely
> enclosed in a solid tubular steel frame.

But it's not only about the passenger, is it? It is also about the pedestrian.
A cube might be safer for a kid but the same cube going 45 kmph driven by an
unlicensed person can be lethal to others.

~~~
adimitrov
The car industry has forever not given a fuck about people who aren't their
direct customers, mostly because they don't have to.

Nobody's buying a car on the merit that it will protect victims of a crash
that aren't _in the car itself_. I think that's mostly due to the cognitive
dissonance that people have where they think that _they 're_ not going to be
the one to cause a wreck _somebody else_ dies in. Because if you were aware of
that possibility, you'd have to be aware of your responsibility to drive
safely. But driving should be cool, fun, and maybe even practical, at least
that's how car companies sell their product.

Safety is only ever marketed to the consumer as something that protects
_them_.

~~~
wazoox
Case in point: see the worldwide exploding sales of SUVs, which are arguably a
scandal on all and every aspect.

------
dvh
2 Seats, 2.4m long, 1.4m wide, top speed of 45km/h, range of 70km, €6000,
Recharges from standard 220V socket (3h recharge time, 5.5kWh lithium
battery).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_(electric)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_\(electric\))

It doesn't seem to be for sale in EU :(

~~~
tda
Pretty impressive battery for the price. Speed-pedelec bikes (electric
assisted bikes capable of 45km/h, with <1kWh batteries) cost about the same.

------
hk__2
> or, with €100 down, €78 a month – roughly what most Parisians pay for an
> all-zone metro and suburban rail pass.

Not exactly true: by law, employers must pay half of that amount, so most
Parisian pay €38/mo for that "all-zone metro and suburban rail pass". If you
don’t work, that’s free. Pretty much nobody pays the full amount.

~~~
gregoriol
The half paid by the employer is actually taken from your salary.

But the target of younger people generally pay a reduced/student price anyway,
which is low too.

~~~
revax
>The half paid by the employer is actually taken from your salary.

That is not true, if you don't have the transit pass (eg. you only take your
car) you are not paid 38€ more than your coworkers.

------
Raed667
I used to live next to a high-school in the south of France. A lot of teens
with these "without-license" cars, mostly Twizy [1] and Chatenet [2], this is
not a new phenomena.

Personally, I didn't feel more in danger compared to other cars when they're
around.

[1] [https://www.renault.fr/vehicules-
electriques/twizy.html](https://www.renault.fr/vehicules-
electriques/twizy.html) [2] [https://www.automobiles-
chatenet.com/accueil.html](https://www.automobiles-chatenet.com/accueil.html)

------
ashtonkem
France has had a long tradition of these "Voiture sans permis" (car without
permit), which usually had a limit on weight and power. They were popular
among teenagers learning to drive, poorer residents who couldn't afford larger
cars, and unfortunately occasionally drunks who couldn't qualify for a regular
license.

In fact, most of Europe for a long time had multiple tiers of licenses for
"regular" cars. It's my understanding that part of the popularity of the three
wheeled Reliant Robin was caused by the fact that until 2001 you could drive
it with a Motorcycle license, which I presume is much easier to get than a
full car license. Also, I believe it was cheap.

------
teleforce
For a price of two Brompton electric folding bikes you can get an Ami, really
nice engineering there to get to the price point.

This can be a game changer in urban set up especially in my part of the world
where it can protect the occupants from the weather that is either rain or
hot.

I'm involved in an IoT project where we have a few Toyota EV COMS cars (2nd
generation) that is similar in size and purpose to Ami [1]. It's a joy to
drive and convenient to use if you want to travel from A to B in urban
environment.

[1][https://www.newlaunches.com/archives/toyota-releases-
ultra-c...](https://www.newlaunches.com/archives/toyota-releases-ultra-
compact-single-seater-coms-ev-with-top-speed-of-60kmh.php)

------
spodek
Just before this article went up, I had posted to my blog: "Prediction: cars
will become disposable" [https://joshuaspodek.com/prediction-cars-will-become-
disposa...](https://joshuaspodek.com/prediction-cars-will-become-disposable)

Then I saw this article and followed it up: "More disposable cars: Ignoring
unintended side-effects" [https://joshuaspodek.com/more-disposable-cars-
ignoring-unint...](https://joshuaspodek.com/more-disposable-cars-ignoring-
unintended-side-effects)

I started by saying:

> Walking around Manhattan, with many people moving out, sidewalks are
> overflowing with what they don’t value enough to keep. What are they
> disposing? Sofas, mattresses, shelves, chairs, books, televisions, printers,
> scanners, lamps, mirrors, plates, toasters, silverware, . . . I could go on.

> Notice anything about them? All those things used to be once-in-a-lifetime
> purchases. Some were high-tech wonders when introduced—now disposable. We
> don’t value them as much as the effort to maintain them. We turn them into
> pollution.

> Our market system has shifted from creating value to creating craving.
> People like novelty, I guess, so marketing engineers figure out how to
> generate craving so they can temporarily satisfy it.

> Meanwhile, markets motivate people to figure out how to deliver with lower
> cost. The result? Everything becomes disposable—food, plates, furniture,
> silverware (now plasticware), clothing, everything.

. . .

and ended with

> We don’t lack comfort and convenience. We’re choking on waste.

> We like comfort and convenience, but our world doesn’t lack it. On the
> contrary, we’re drowning in it. Our lack of physical activity and feeling
> entitled is making us depressed, obese, and sick, lacking resilience,
> discipline, or initiative to respond.

> History implies people will buy this product in droves, competitors will
> match it, the market will keep driving down cost and durability, increasing
> landfill waste. We will increase total waste and lower quality of life,
> meaning, and purpose.

------
GordonS
> There is a nice nod to the 2CV in the Ami’s flip-up windows, while other
> simple, money-saving ideas include identical doors (meaning one opens
> backwards and the other frontwards) and similarly interchangeable front and
> rear panels.

The windows are a nice touch, and the identical doors and interchangeable
panels are, frankly, ingenious!

Something I didn't see mentioned in the article was the range - as a city car,
I guess it's not that important, but does anyone know what it is?

~~~
mauvehaus
The original Ford Bronco has identical door skins left and right to save
money. It's one die to stamp them instead of two. I love that they're taking
it to another level on the Ami.

------
yholio
I believe driver-less cities will eventually converge to networks of
microvehicles like this, as opposed to large, inefficient vehicles designed to
handle highway speeds and risks.

You can fit two such pods side by side in one of the tunnels of the Boring
Company. If they run at 2 second intervals, one after the other, with an
average occupancy of 1.5 people, a single tunnel can provide a peak throughput
of 90 people per minute or 5400 per hour. That's about half of what a subway
can handle. You could also create "formations" of pods even more tightly
packed for longer cross-city links. Full computer control requires much less
safety devices such as airbags - like in a subway, the crash is ruled out by
proper management of trafic.

Outside the tunnels, they can blend in easily and provide a sane mass
transport alternative, as opposed to congesting the city with more full sized
cars. An existing row of paralel parking spots is all of a sudden a mass
transport station where pods dock perpendicularly and await commuters; no need
for fancy elevators, just an steep slope to the tunnels below.

~~~
qayxc
> If they run at 2 second intervals, one after the other, [...], a single
> tunnel can provide a peak throughput of 90 people per minute or 5400 per
> hour.

I like optimism in general, but think about that for just a second. At the
vehicles' top speed of ~45km/h, 2 seconds translate to an average distance of
just 25m.

This leaves very little room for error and isn't enough of a safety margin.

Then there's the obvious thing which renders this idea completely impractical:
have you ever tried to stop a car going at 45km/h, get out of it and have
another person enter the vehicle in well under 2 seconds?

That's practically impossible.

Also, it's time to rethink cities instead of regurgitating failed concepts
(e.g. individual transport within densely populated areas) over and over
again. A liveable city should be made for people, not cars (no matter the
size). Going through the insane effort of stuffing individual traffic
underground wouldn't change anything - you'd just have your congestion during
peak hours underground; it wouldn't go away, though.

~~~
yholio
The recommended spacing for human drivers is 3s, and if you ever drive on a
highway, you will see 2s is the norm most drivers actually use at much higher
speeds. There is absolutely no issue to reach that spacing for computer divers
at 45 Km/h, even if the front vehicle comes to an instantaneous stop, 10
meters is enough to brake.

Clearly the stopping and picking up of passengers is not gonna be done on the
main lane. Just like with regular cars, pods exit the speed lane, enter a
deceleration lane, then stop into the actual station - a series of parking
spaces - where people can embark and disembark at will.

~~~
qayxc
How on earth would you have multiple lanes within a glorified utility tunnel?
That's even more unrealistic, because now you not only need a main tunnel and
emergency exits, you also need a bunch of parallel tunnels with individual
lifts/ramps plus lots of room for merging.

This is even more impractical. Just to be clear: impractical doesn't mean
impossible - it just means that there's no way this can be as economical,
safe, and efficient as existing concepts.

An actual station or "a series of parking spaces" as you put it, has no
advantages over a traditional subway/people mover station in terms of
efficiency, cost and space requirements while offering significantly less
throughput.

I just don't see how any of this would be an improvement in any way.

~~~
yholio
The improvement lays in the flexibility of the system. In the financial
district, you have a large station with similar costs and restraints as
existing systems, and with multiple paralel lanes to handle the trafic,
merging etc.

When you fan out throughout the city, you can build, for the same price of a
single subway tunnel, multiple links, and you can build much more
micostations, close to where people need to go, with very short ramps and
deceleration and acceleration handled cooperatively with the other vehicles,
since throughput is no longer critical.

And finally, on the last mile, the vehicles goes outside and drives to your
suburban home on the existing road network, in areas of low density where no
people mover will ever make economic sense.

It is this flexibility that makes self driving vehicles a very practical
proposition for future cities.

------
aasasd
> _It can be recharged from a standard home socket in three hours_

I keep wondering how you are supposed to charge a car in an (un-specially-
prepared) city if you can't afford a place in an indoors lot. Do you just
throw an extension cord out your window? Do you book lamppost electricity from
the local authority?

Though I guess Paris is not a place with this problem.

------
11235813213455
To me, there are more benefits in using a bike: maintenance, cost, health
benefits, it's probably also more secure

I've taken the bus for years at that age (10-18 years old) to go to school, I
regret so much not using a bike, I could have woken up later and have more
freedom (not have to wait for buses)

~~~
tgv
From the article:

> ..., two young women stared open-mouthed. “How did you manage to get hold of
> it?” asked one. “ ... it’s environment-friendly"

Part of its appeal is to the lazy and stupid.

OTOH, riding a bicycle in Paris is not ideal, although the safety of this
thing doesn't convince me either.

------
Someone
That would be good for the environment if it would replace larger cars, but
seems to end up bad for it (globally. Locally, going electric likely is a
plus), as it mostly replaces scooters for healthy teenage drivers, which
should be replaced by human-powered bicycles.

~~~
Tade0
The environmental footprint is not that clear-cut here, because humans are
generally bad at turning food into energy, so cycling has a footprint of
anywhere between 22g/km (vegan diet) to ~80g/km(average US diet rich in beef)
of CO2 per kilometer.

Meanwhile a kilometer of driving this vehicle in France has a footprint of
~7g.

The battery's manufacturing footprint sits at around 450kg of CO2 - and this
is something that has to be "paid off", but it's entirely possible within the
car's lifecycle.

Basically unless you're vegan, it's likely more environmentally friendly in
France to drive this.

~~~
Someone
Walking is less energy efficient per km than cycling, so by that logic, we
should spend our lives in electric wheel chairs. I don’t want us to go there.

Luckily, it may not be true that this is more environmentally friendly than
cycling. I would think this 485 kg car uses more road space and causes more
wear and tear on roads than a 25 kg bicycle. That must count for something.

You also have to take the health benefits of cycling/the effect of more car
driving on obesity into account.

------
romanoderoma
Rome is already full of such vehicles and has been for at least a decade.

We call them mini car or micro car.

A popular brand is Ligier.

The solution for traffic jams have always been mopeds here, but given their
higher safety, and the price tag that was very close to a modern scooter,
parents have started buying them for their children.

But they have soon become a status symbol for rich kids, the prices went up
considerably (between 10k and 15k but up to 30k) and now they usually rally in
some of the popular high end neighborhoods (such as Parioli) and act like
gangs.

They fight for territory with those coming from other neighborhoods, spice up
the engines and make a lot of noise.

To the point that they have become a nightmare for the residents and for the
police.

~~~
itronitron
Interesting, that reminds me of the classic film "The Cars That Are Paris" >>
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cars_That_Ate_Paris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cars_That_Ate_Paris)

~~~
romanoderoma
I've never heard of that the movie before, thanks for the the tip!

If you are interested there are is a news video reportage about the "rich
babies" generation in Rome, it's in Italian but auto generated English
subtitles are not bad

Around minute 23 they talk about the mini cars

[https://youtu.be/uYPKqiPY9d4](https://youtu.be/uYPKqiPY9d4)

------
angry_octet
If these are like most electric cars, the batteries are in a flat compartment
at the bottom of the chassis in a box design, giving incredible torsional
rigidity and a very low centre of mass, so great cornering. They could be
pretty safe for the occupants, even fanging it down a narrow European street.
However, not so safe for pedestrians. I'm guessing these won't come with ABS
or mm wave collision detection emergency brakes; it's one of those items that
is cheap to manufacture and install, but the IP and testing is expensive.

------
hrktb
> More than 40% of those driving Amis are under 18

On this quote, it should be noted this is for the Ami specifically, and not
for the market it is targeting.

There are other vehicles already existing in this “less than a car, more than
a scooter” niche, notably Renault’s Twizy, but also makers like Aixam who
build “license less” cars mostly for elderlies, people who never bothered
passing the driving license or lost it at some point etc.

Perhaps the Ami is just not competitive enough to take significant market
share from those, and is pigeonholed in 18- market, but the whole targetable
market is larger.

------
gregoriol
It is not clear to me why they need to make them so ugly: Citroën is pretty
good with design, and then they try to sell these. It is almost as if they
don't want people to buy them.

~~~
jaclaz
Yep, they don't need to be "ugly".

But I don't think there is much to do with design, I guess all shapes have
been already designed for these cars, and they all invariably end up being a
sort of caricature of a "real size" car, more or less the inside needs to be
big enough to house the driver and passenger (that do not and cannot shrink)
whilst the outside is reduced in size as much as possible leading to things
that are "stubby".

The only two exceptions I know are (like it or hate it) the already mentioned
Renault Twizy that has a somewhat unconventional design and the Microlino
which is a sort of (good ol') Isetta replica:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20745339](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20745339)

[https://microlino-car.com/en/microlino](https://microlino-
car.com/en/microlino)

------
Bayart
I find it surprisingly, and interestingly, similar to the first wave of
electric cars, over a hundred years ago, such as the Baker [1]. They were
small, didn't require much mechanical insight (as EVs do) and particularly
suited for small drives to the grocery store.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhnjMdzGusc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhnjMdzGusc)

------
commonturtle
45 kmph (28 mph) is still pretty fast for Parisian streets. I'd feel nervous
about letting 14-year olds without a license drive these cars.

~~~
Thorrez
Yep, the first automobile-pedestrian death in England was caused by a car
traveling 4 mph.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Bridget_Driscoll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Bridget_Driscoll)

------
jack_pp
I'm 28 without a licence and love electric scooters which I _sometimes_ use on
the street when I feel it's safe. I would be afraid to drive the Ami because I
don't know the traffic rules and I don't think I could just go on the
sidedwalk with this when I don't know what to do on the street like I can with
a bike / scooter.

~~~
mywacaday
Bikes and scooters aren't allowed on pavements usually either.

~~~
adrianN
If you are unsure about the traffic situation you can always get off and push
them, perfectly legally. It's a bit harder to do with a car.

------
Putintseva
Dominos use electro cars for delivery. practicaly the same)
[https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15149179/dominos-
electrif...](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15149179/dominos-electrifies-
pizza-delivery-car-news/)

------
agumonkey
I'm just back from biking in a dense urban area, 45km/h for inner city is top.
Few years ago some company tried the leased per hour model, sadly people
degraded cars at high rate, too much money lost, service was cut. Still
there's a spot here.

~~~
speedgoose
These Boloré Bluecars cars had a shit battery technology that needed to be at
least 60°C (140°F) warm, all the time. Even when the car was parked and not
used for hours / days.

What a waste of energy.

~~~
agumonkey
Oh well, another blunder.

If batteries improvements aren't just rumors a v2 could work.

------
jaclaz
Previous thread discussing similar vehicles:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061897](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061897)

------
perlgeek
Btw French "ami" is "friend" in English.

------
every
Everything old is new again...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta)

------
dotcoma
Do people really feel safer, or more comfortable, in this tiny tin can than on
a bicycle? If so, something must be really wrong with traffic and our cities.

~~~
Shivetya
Sure they do. Works with pets as well as people, give security from the sides
and a roof and suddenly you have an air of safety.

plus I know there is big kick here on HN for bicycles but it is wholly
unrealistic to rely on a mode of transport that is not useful in all weather
conditions. Hell the number of people who fall into the trap that a motorcycle
will save them money and then don't ride it for the same reasons is legion.

They are fun, your chance of injury is magnitudes greater though, and they are
not suited for all people. This can be based on needs to carry stuff, to being
secure from the weather, or being handicapped.

~~~
dotcoma
Have you checkout the numbers for places like the Netherlands, or Copenhagen?

Sure, if you're in Dallas or Phoenix or Atlanta, it's not going to work,
unfortunately.

------
coverband
I really like the concept, but isn’t €6K a bit expensive for this? If seen as
a substitute for e-mopeds, it’s 4-6 times more expensive.

------
antongribok
Everyone here is talking about licensing requirements, but I'm very curious
about something else...

What would insurance requirements look like for this?

------
finphil
I find the design really cool, and it's a two-seater. ＼(◎o◎)／

------
beervirus
It’s a $7000 golf cart.

------
liquidify
Why would you want to put your young kids who barely know how to drive in a
tiny car?

~~~
flower-giraffe
Because it’s safer than a scooter.

~~~
crote
Safer for who? The driver? What about the cyclists and pedestrians around?

------
wayanon
These could be lethal for cyclists especially if driven by youngsters.

