
GIMP developer looking for funding - desiderantes
https://www.patreon.com/pippin
======
magicfractal
Pippin is a extremely competent programmer and has been commited to GIMP and
GEGL for a long time. I just signed up for a monthly contribution and I
believe it's a great way to support the development of free software for
graphics.

~~~
foolrush
I hope this is some sarcastic joke. I really do. If anyone believes this, they
have apparently been asleep at the wheel of GIMP development for the past
decade.

Hubris. Ego. Not a shred of a clue about image editing. The entire batch of
_current_ systemic problems are a byproduct of _this developer 's_ efforts and
architecture.

~~~
snvzz
Care to elaborate?

------
std_throwaway
Thinking back of all the times I've used the GIMP; I'm compelled to give it a
little boost.

EDIT: I'm willing to give the GIMP a boost. I don't know this developer. Is
someone knowledgable about this particular developer. Is it likely they are
the right person to do it?

EDIT2: He's contributed a lot already for a long time and still keeps on going
strong. It looks good to me.

~~~
timonovici
I have heard about Pippin before, and he and Mitch (another well known GIMP
developer) confirmed on IRC that the campaign is legit.

The campaign is also listed here
[http://pippin.gimp.org/](http://pippin.gimp.org/) \- in the header.

~~~
std_throwaway
Commit logs of GEGL show he's been an active developer for a long time:
[https://git.gnome.org/browse/gegl/log/?ofs=1050](https://git.gnome.org/browse/gegl/log/?ofs=1050)

~~~
timonovici
Cool. I just went with the $8 tier. Go go GIMP!

------
generic_user
For anyone who is interested in funding Professional quality OSS graphics
software that meets the requirements of current standards and expectations I
strongly suggest to donated to the Krita, Natron or Blender project instead of
Gimp.

The Gimp project has been quite abrasive to the graphics research and software
development communities for many years. The Gimp team 'knows better' then the
highly qualified and experienced graphics programmers who offered to help the
project bring there code base into the current standards for graphics.

There has been a lot of goodwill that has been squandered by the Gimp
developers to the point that I seriously doubt that anyone with the skills or
the time to work on OSS graphics is willing to invest any time in the project.

Any further development of Gimp will more then likely be an upgrade to the
latest version of the GTK+ toolkit slapped on top of the same outdated 8bit
early 1990's architecture fallowed by praise by people who have little
experience or interest in graphics at any serious level.

~~~
timonovici
GIMP had some very serious progress lately (v 2.8) . I found myself using the
Cage tool a lot, for example, and the new brush size selector is quite nice.
As for the 8 bit stuff - you do know that they are transitioning to babl and
GEGL, right?

I don't know much about those highly qualified graphics programmers - but
every good project has a pace and a development plan - GIMP definitely has a
roadmap in place, that can't and shouldn't be turned 180 degrees everytime
someone comes with an idea; and I've seen quite a few people who see the
rigors and the standards set in place as "abrasiveness"

Could you point us to some mailing list messages that would support the claim
though? I don't follow the mailing list closely, mainly the news
announcements.

~~~
generic_user
> transitioning to babl and GEGL

The Gimp has been 'transitioning to GEGL' for how many years now? Something
like six or seven years. And getting the data structures in place is only part
of the challenge. How fast is this going to be for users? If the speed is to
slow for users to efficiently get there work done at an intuitive pace then
you have still failed.

From the initial GEGL integration attempts I saw the whole thing was hacked
together with no clear thought to performance. And the performance was indeed
quite abysmal.

~~~
timonovici
GEGL supports acceleration via OpenCL, so it's unfair to claim they haven't
thought of performance at all. And AFAIK most plugins are already ported to
GEGL, and the core seems to be done. I do agree that it took a lot of time,
but I find it surprising that the project made any progress at all - whitout a
few developers hired full time, aren't we too entitled to ask for such
advanced features, and have them shipped quick as well?

There are very few sustainable free/open source projects, which have corporate
or some other kind of backing - GNOME (redhat), Linux (linux foundation) and
Blender (blender institute) are the only one that come to my mind.

~~~
generic_user
> aren't we too entitled to ask for such advanced features, and have them
> shipped quick as well?

It would be unreasonable to expect from unpaid volunteers if they has no
ambition to do such work. Which is why I suggest that if you want to see
advanced features and professional quality graphics software with a
predictable cycle of development then you support the projects that actually
try to create such programs.

Krita has a regular development cycle, a clear set of priorities and goals and
funded development efforts that clearly lays out what features and improvement
are going to be achieved with your hard earned money.

That has been an ENORMOUSLY successful improvement for both the programmers
who can now get paid to work on there projects and the artists that now get
quality continuously updated graphics software.

If Gimp or any other project deserve funding they have to step up and show the
discipline and commitment to there project that successful projects like Krita
have. I do not see that at this time so my recommendation is to support the
projects that I listed in the OP.

> edit

As far as performance is concerned OpenCL or Cuda is not going to save you if
your cpu bound memory architecture is not carefully thought for performance.
This has always been a major problem for gimp for a long time. The higher bit
depth and resolutions that are used now only exacerbate the situation. A
general use case now could easily have tens of gigabytes worth of data that
the user wants to manipulate delete and expand in real time. I have never seen
this addressed in a serious proposal.

~~~
nercht12
So because GIMP doesn't solve ALL of its problems it deserves nothing? I find
this unreasonable. So it's not perfect - no software is - but it's very, very
useful, and still deserves support from those who utilize and appreciate it.

btw: I do love Krita, and I'm not saying they deserve any less support in
favor of GIMP, but Krita is a lousy choice for certain image-editing routines
where GIMP excels. Krita much more tailored towards artists, and I'd rather it
stay that way.

------
mlinksva
Another GIMP developer has been looking for funding at Patreon/Tipee for their
dev work mixed with work on an animated film, sidebar of
[https://girinstud.io/news/2016/09/dont-be-a-stranger-to-
gimp...](https://girinstud.io/news/2016/09/dont-be-a-stranger-to-gimp-be-
gimp/) for links to those campaigns, comments below for discussion of such
funding attempts.

------
desiderantes
I don't understan why some people feel a foolish rush to come and discredit
the GIMP devs, and "discreetly" demand that everybody else should invest their
money in X or Y project because i like them and they're not GIMP. I dislike
the word «shill» but it's a correct description of those people.

~~~
generic_user
I care about the open source graphics community as a whole. Not just Gimp, not
just Krita, Blender etc. But the whole ecosystem of Programmers, Researchers
and Artists and the health of the software that brings those people together.

After more then a decade of failed and failing software development and
funding modes that tried to shoehorn artist driven intuitive graphics
applications into a development model that tangentially works for lone wolf
kernel device driver hackers we have started to overcome the damage and move
in a positive direction with Krita, Natron, Blender Foundation etc.

The Gimp project and development model has not produced a productive
environment or a compelling product for any of the groups I mentioned. That
has been the case for many years. After a lot of hard work other projects have
managed to formulate better more productive models to develop OSS graphics
programs and find funding to do so. The artists are happier because they get
better more competitive software and they are willing to fund its development.
The programmers are happier because they have a clear direction and
understanding of who there users are and where the software needs to go. And
the researchers are happier because they see a community who is interested in
and welcoming of new and useful graphics algorithms and research.

None of this has happened because of the Gimp. It has happened in spite of the
Gimp project sucking most of the air out of the room for many years and
contributing nothing to the OSS graphics community as a whole.

If you care about fostering the growth of OSS Graphics software and a
community of talented Artists that feel comfortable and productive using OSS
software then you need to promote the people and the projects that are making
that happen.

The gimp project needs to take a break and perhaps hand the reigns over to a
new group with a different vision. The current project and its structure,
soliciting money form the Artist community into developers private patreon
accounts with vague promises to make Gimp great again is not helping Gimp or
the OSS graphics community.

~~~
prokoudine
> It has happened in spite of the Gimp project sucking most of the air out of
> the room for many years and contributing nothing to the OSS graphics
> community as a whole.

Oh I dunno. I see people doing excellent work with GIMP all the time. How
about you?

> The gimp project needs to take a break and perhaps hand the reigns over to a
> new group with a different vision.

There is no "new group". There's just us.

~~~
generic_user
> There is no "new group". There's just us.

Yes, and now would be a good time to admit that the reason why that is the
case is because the Gimp project and development model are unproductive and
failing when compared to other projects who do not have any problem attracting
new people or resources.

The Gimp project needs to dismantle itself and take some time to think about
how it can build a more productive and sustainable model that attracts
developers based on the successful examples that other projects have.

Begging for coins into your Patreon is not part of building a large,
productive and sustainable project. Its more of the same misguided and
shortsighted mismanagement that has brought Gimp to its current sorry state.

~~~
prokoudine
> The Gimp project needs to dismantle itself

Yes, I expect you would want that.

> the same misguided and shortsighted mismanagement

It's amazing we managed so far at all without your expert input.

There are many reasons things are the way they are. That you don't know much
about those is a whole different story.

------
devwastaken
The post there doesn't seem too convincing. I understand how important Gimp
is, in a world where Adobe owns the scene of image editing, but others may not
know that well.

I feel the post really should be conveying what they will be providing if they
reach their patreon marker. A better competitor to Photoshop, Paint.net. What
features will be worked on, etc. Its gotta market itself in some way.

~~~
quadrangle
[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-
really-s...](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve)

GIMP is free software and ethical. Paint.net is the same rental model that
Photoshop is now using and is completely against the public interest for us to
put our resources into that sort of business.

~~~
RandomOpinion
> _GIMP is free software and ethical_

Implying that non-free software is unethical? That's a rather rude thing to
say.

~~~
rvern
From [https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-
sw.html](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html):

> A program is free software if it gives users adequately all of these
> freedoms. Otherwise, it is nonfree. While we can distinguish various nonfree
> distribution schemes in terms of how far they fall short of being free, we
> consider them all equally unethical.

For people who think that users deserve the freedom to run, copy, distribute,
study, change and improve the software they use, nonfree software is indeed
unethical. Even more so when the software is used by the developers as an
instrument of injust power.

------
saosebastiao
Off topic but I found it interesting: the original creator of GIMP is also one
of the founders of cockroach labs / cockroachDB. That's a pretty cool resume
IMO.

~~~
WillyOnWheels
The two original creators of The Gimp founded Cockroach Labs, were long time
Google employees, and sold their startup Viewfinder to Square.

------
timonovici
Finally! With one developer full-time, this project will pick up the pace.

~~~
9erdelta
Pardon me for not being able to tell, but is this sarcasm or sincerity?

~~~
std_throwaway
I was reading a bit through the mailing list and it seemed that the GIMP
development team had bit off a bit more than they could swallow at that time.
This is what I've got from it:

* They rewrite the core of the software to allow a lot of new features.

* The developers could not agree on all critical details on how to proceed.

* Some developers got frustrated because things were not going their way or proceeding too slowly.

* The new model of how things work makes much of the old code obsolete.

* There are a lot of modules which need to be rewritten to use the new core.

* Before thinking about releasing the new GIMP >50% of the total work has to be done making transition hard.

* Due to its 'unique' interface a lot of people don't like the GIMP even if it would do everything they need.

* Designing and implementing a new interface is another pain point.

Considering that currently the GIMP is at a critical point in its development,
a full-time developer could really be the pivotal element in making it
succeed. I don't know much about this particular developer, though.

~~~
prokoudine
Your summary is more or less correct :)

------
foolrush
The architecture and architect shouldn't be writing software. Complete hack
with no knowledge of image editing. Chase down Elle Stone's posts on how
fundamentally broken it is.

Shortlist:

1\. Hideously over-engineered pixel path makes performance, if at all
possible, worse.

2\. Broken concept of colour management and pixels. See sRGB debacle and the
concept of hard coded spaces.

3\. Anachronism of imaging model.

4\. Ignored fundamental problems that many people pointed out years ago. See
the ridiculous "unbounded mode" that even a 100 level image computer student
could have demonstrated _would never work_.

5\. As per 4., ignored all evidence and designed a worthless software model
around.

Etc.

The project needs to die.

~~~
timClicks
This is why we can't have nice things. Open source development that improves
the lives of millions of people is still flamed because of choices made far in
the past that are very hard to fix means that it "needs to die".

Look - irrespective of the truth of the message, remember that there are
humans reading it and framing matters

------
shmerl
I hope Gimp will switch to GTK3 at last. It's one of those projects that's
still stuck with GTK2. Or even better - Qt ;)

~~~
rosser
GTK3, maybe, but QT? Yeah, you and the dude who barged onto the PostgreSQL
hackers mailing list and tried to talk the community into rewriting the
project in Rust should hang out.

"You should completely rewrite this project, consisting of hundreds of
thousands of lines of code that people have worked on for years, using the
tools I like better!"

~~~
zepolen
Is this what you're talking about? [https://www.postgresql.org/message-
id/CAASwCXdQUiuUnhycdRvrU...](https://www.postgresql.org/message-
id/CAASwCXdQUiuUnhycdRvrUmHuzk5PsaGxr54U4t34teQjcjb%3DAQ@mail.gmail.com)

Because that's pure gold.

~~~
lokedhs
Or this one: [http://www.wilfred.me.uk/blog/2017/01/11/announcing-
remacs-p...](http://www.wilfred.me.uk/blog/2017/01/11/announcing-remacs-
porting-emacs-to-rust/)

For extra enjoyment, look at the way they convert a function definition to
Rust. You'd hope that the new version would be at least somewhat nicer than
the original, but of course not. As lng as it's Rust it must be better, right?

------
wutf
The only way I would fund GIMP is if that funding went directly towards a
better UI. It's not worth improving the algorithms given how hard it is to
use.

~~~
nercht12
I happen to like the UI. It's not for everyone, admittedly, esp. people coming
from PS, but it can modified and rearranged. ATM, my Gimp UI is a single
window will all the tools nicely arranged on the left side and only containing
the most-used tabs. There are only 6 or 7 tabs you'll use 99% of the time
anyways.

~~~
herbst
Same. I am no graphic wizard, i dont want to relearn. I am happy it still
looks more or less than i when i learned it years ago, and pretty much similar
to the last PS version i've used.

------
gressquel
gimp is ace, but I prefer Paint.NET

~~~
mtbomb
Yes, I'd like to see a paint.net for Linux or mac

~~~
mappu
Pinta is a clone of Paint.NET for Linux and Mac.

It's mostly quite good and has very high feature parity. Although it can't
resize a selected image portion and so i still use paint.net.

------
bedros
Linux needs a great video editor, I would contribute if they add video editing
to gimp

~~~
herbst
Lightworks? It even works slightly better on Linux than everywhere else it
seems. Its the editor in which Pulp fiction for example was made, and IMO its
(in opposite to the others i've tried) easy to learn but also able to do
advanced stuff.

