
An Ethical Future for Brain Organoids Takes Shape? - laurex
https://www.quantamagazine.org/an-ethical-future-for-brain-organoids-takes-shape-20200123/
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dropoutcoder
How is there an ethical future when we don’t yet understand the hard problem
of consciousness? How does one know if their manufactured neural net is self
aware?

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lonelappde
How does anyone know if their naturally produced neural nets are self aware?

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shadowgovt
By definition, one can always know their own naturally-produced neural net is
self aware (cogito, ergo sum). The open question for solipsists is whether,
should someone report to you their neural net is _also_ self-aware, you should
believe them.

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0_gravitas
but how can we be sure that the _cogito_ part is actually happening? this
immediately (d)evolves into a purely ontological discussion

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shadowgovt
Personal experience. We perceive a continuity of experiences, memory, and the
difference between that and slumber or becoming insensate, and we call the
experience "consciousness" and our knowledge of that "self-awareness." It is
definitional; the word descends from the experience, not the other way around.

~~~
0_gravitas
Perhaps we need to synchronize our definitions of "experience", "perception",
"personal", and "knowledge", because your very words are almost exactly what I
would say in counter to your point.

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Rabisat
I think a catchall, bare-minimum solution, would be to limit the lifetime of
each organoid. The worst-case scenario is that these organoids experience
consciousness and/or suffer in some capacity. You can at least time-limit
their existence so no single organoid could suffer indefinitely.

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AtomicOrbital
earth itself deserves a higher moral status than proto organs ... these
humanists need to recalibrate their assumptions ... humans are an instance of
a process which will continue far after humanity is superceded ... don't
confuse the product for the process

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drdeca
Right, and clearly the most important moral issue of our time is that
electrons might be suffering. /s

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vearwhershuh
As nietzsche said, we are beyond good and evil at this point.

The ethicists are there simply to help us ignore the melancholy, long,
withdrawing roar.

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PrivateRepo
Read After Virtue by Alasdair Macintyre if you want a hot take for & against
this sort of thinking.

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vearwhershuh
Great book.

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xvector
Kind of absurd to be concerned with regulating maybe-conscious brain organoids
when our species murders 55 billion definitely-conscious land animals a year
and eats them for pleasure, eh?

If consciousness is the line you draw in the sand there are much bigger
problems to solve. At least research on organoids would have some value to
offset the suffering it might cause.

I am not an advocate of letting perfect be the enemy of good, but I do not
think it makes sense to invest any effort in this when it is just a drop in an
ocean of suffering we create - the only drop with the potential to actually
help our species move forwards.

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mdorazio
Serious question: is there any peer reviewed evidence that food animals are
conscious to the level of self awareness?

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eindiran
The answer depends on how you want to test for self-awareness. For a long time
it was defined via the mirror test [0], but there is a lot of evidence that
the test isn't a great test for many animals (eg where vision isn't one of
their primary senses). As far as I know, no "food" animals have passed the
mirror test; a number of aquatic mammals, primates, and birds (none of which
are eaten commonly in the US) have, and one species of fish.

Personally, I am of the opinion that testing for self awareness is very
difficult and its not clear why that's the cut off for where we stop eating
things to begin with. Clearly the animals we farm and eat are capable of
feeling pain, and many of them are very intelligent. Pretending that we would
respond to the news that eg pigs had passed the mirror test by no longer
eating them seems farcical to me.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness)

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pjkundert
It’s ok; just induce a demise, and you’re ethically in the clear.

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Rabisat
I'd say rather that your potential for ethical wrongdoing to each organoid
would be capped, but it's a start.

