
The Polyamorous Christian Socialist Utopia That Made Silverware - samclemens
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/the-polyamorous-christian-socialist-utopia-that-made-silverware-for-proper-americans/
======
dkhenry
For what appears to be such a well researched article, the author completely
gets the theology of Methodists and Baptists wrong. Not only does he do a poor
job of trying to explain Arminianism, and he associates it with Baptists,
which it isn't, but he says the Baptists and Methodists originated as part of
the Second Great Awakening they both predate it by a century or more. Also I
have never even heard of "perfectionism" and a quick google/wikipedia of it
turns up no reference other then to this specific cult. As a clarification
Puritan and Calvinist theology would hold to the "sainthood of the believer"
which appears to be identical to the idea of Perfectionism raised in this
article.

~~~
rubidium
I wouldn't put it quite so starkly as "completely... wrong". It was a jumbled
time for the movements and sects of Protestantism.

Perfectionism was a valid strain of Methodism, see Wesley's sermon:
[http://www.umcmission.org/Find-Resources/John-Wesley-
Sermons...](http://www.umcmission.org/Find-Resources/John-Wesley-
Sermons/Sermon-40-Christian-Perfection). There are PhD's thesis I could point
you to if interested (look through Notre Dame's archives).

Sainthood of the believer is a bit different from perfectionism, as
perfectionism was the final stage of the christian journey in some strains of
Methodism (vs. the predestined state).... but it all got a little messy in
that era.

Regarding that it's true both baptists and methodists originated well before
the 2nd great awakening, but both certainly saw big growth due to it.

All of that fun history stuff aside, the Oneida Community was clearly off in
terms of normal Christianity theology and practice (and the article points to
many examples of poor discernment). They made a nice brand of silverware
though!

~~~
ktRolster
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
-Matthew 5:48

~~~
koenigdavidmj
It's actually pretty rare among Christians to believe that this implies that
ceasing sinning is possible. The Nazarene denomination is really the only
notable group that believes that today.

The more common understanding is that lines like this are meant to drive to
despair ("Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of
death?" -Romans 7:24) anyone who thinks they're getting close to perfect
obedience. Only the perfect obedience of someone else (Christ himself being
the only one fitting that description) is suitable to reach glory.

~~~
reitanqild
> The Nazarene denomination is really the only notable group that believes
> that today.

At least not entirely correct. The group I belong to considers this important.
We are only a few thousand though.

~~~
dkhenry
What group would that be if you don't mind sharing ?

~~~
reitanqild
Not here to advertise or linkspam so, using rot13, here is the website:

uggc://npgvirpuevfgvnavgl.bet/

------
natecarroll
I just read a great book called Paradise Now about 5 different Utopian
movements in the US, Oneida being one of them. It seems the most successful
colonies blended business savvy with a coherent set of values and cultivated
familial closeness. Capitalist individualism obviously dominated the 20th
century, but I can imagine a tech-focused system of common ownership making a
comeback.

[https://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Now-Story-American-
Utopianis...](https://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Now-Story-American-
Utopianism/dp/0812993705/ref=sr_1_3)

~~~
toasterlovin
But isn't the common thread that all of these groups ultimately failed?

~~~
Gargoyle
Capitalist individualism will ultimately fail too. Nothing lasts forever.

~~~
toasterlovin
Care to elaborate?

Most of these cults/communes don't make it past the first decade. The longest
lasting ones rarely make it past a century.

So far "capitalist individualism" seems to have a better track record than
that.

~~~
rbanffy
Capitalism, when not regulated, tends to increase inequality. This will,
eventually, lead to instability and a societal reset.

~~~
toasterlovin
Capitalism doesn't need to be perfect in order to be a better system for
organizing a society than communism.

~~~
rbanffy
OTOH, communism doesn't need to be perfect to be better than unregulated
capitalism.

------
Stratoscope
Whatever else they did, the Oneida Community certainly created a lasting
brand. I bought this $13 santoku knife at Safeway 6-7 years ago, and it's
still going strong:

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009Q8TXFA](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009Q8TXFA)

Easily as good quality as some of my much more expensive knives.

Of course the brand has been sold, and it's probably just a label on products
they import from wherever, but _somebody_ is paying attention to quality and
value - and I appreciate that!

------
timthelion
I keep seeing the assumption, that anything that ceases to exists is a
failiure. I feel that this could not be further from the truth. Perhaps the
members were happy for a time and then died. Just because a woman ceases to be
beautiful with age does not mean she was never beautiful at all. Go make some
mandalas people
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_mandala](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_mandala)
!

------
jenkstom
This is one of my favorite stories that hardly anybody knows about. I actually
did consulting for Oneida briefly a long time ago, and I don't think anybody
there had a clue that it was started by a communist sex cult.

~~~
JshWright
Really? I live ~20 miles away, and it's pretty common knowledge here...

~~~
Gibbon1
Likely the people that work for Oneida aren't going to get into the Commie
Christian Sex Cult origins with a random contractor.

------
JshWright
The Mansion House is really lovely building that has been well kept up. It's a
popular field trip destination for local schools.

You can stay there: [http://www.oneidacommunity.org/lodging-rentals/overnight-
gue...](http://www.oneidacommunity.org/lodging-rentals/overnight-guest-rooms)
(they even have several apartments they rent out)

------
throw2016
This is a fascinating read. What I got from this is it's important for men to
be laid regularly or there is a risk they will go and form a cult cum commune
in a 100 year experiment that always ends badly.

How many women have formed cults? They are not as driven by sex, and cults
seem to be closely connected to sex, either the embrace of it in some way that
is against current convention or the puritanical rejection of it.

And thank god for the invention of the the condom. In perspective it has to be
the most important human invention in 2000 years finally freeing women from
the risk of childbirth or disease for every encounter. I think this in many
ways fundamentally changed the evolution of our social structures.

~~~
rokosbasilisk
the condom doesnt stop the spread of all stds or diseases.

but it is still better than nothing.

------
DamnInteresting
This commune was also home to Charles Guiteau for a time, the man who later
assassinated President Garfield:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_J._Guiteau](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_J._Guiteau)

~~~
sverige
And he was such a strange kind of loser that none of the women wanted anything
to do with him and he was kicked out. Twice.

------
saikit
The Met has on display furniture designed and manufactured by members of the
Shaker Community

[http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/shak/hd_shak.htm](http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/shak/hd_shak.htm)

------
buovjaga
Alice Stockham was influenced a lot by the Oneida Method when formulating the
Karezza practice:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Bunker_Stockham](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Bunker_Stockham)

For an in-depth history of Oneida-like continence in the West, I recommend
this book by Arthur Versluis: [https://www.innertraditions.com/the-secret-
history-of-wester...](https://www.innertraditions.com/the-secret-history-of-
western-sexual-mysticism.html)

------
aaron-lebo
Interesting how Mormonism came out of the same area at the same time. Were any
other religions or cults part of that tent revivalism culture? I thought JW's
but that's further south and a few decades later.

~~~
subpixel
That part of NY State was called the 'Burned-over district' because "the area
had been so heavily evangelized as to have no 'fuel' (unconverted population)
left over to 'burn' (convert)". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned-
over_district](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned-over_district)

~~~
neuromantik8086
I read a theory once that the religious fervor may have also been fueled by
upstate New York's notoriously terrible weather. It certainly encourages some
prayer for sunlight! :)

------
andyjohnson0
I noticed that in the first picture in the article, the woman in the front-
centre and the two women on the right appear to have no feet or lower legs. It
doesn't seem be due to the length of the grass because the shoes of men nearby
are visible. Also, the trousers worn by the woman standing sideways in the
centre don't look wide enough to conceal her feet.

Anyone know an explanation?

~~~
JshWright
I think it's a combination of the pants legs being a bit wider than you think,
and the grass being a bit taller than you think. I can assure you the Oneida
Community had no bizarre foot amputation practice...

------
kahrkunne
I love how many oxymorons there are in that title... "polyamorous Christian",
"Christian socialist", "socialist utopia", "polyamorous utopia"

~~~
JshWright
What's wrong with "Christian socialist"? While we have conflated (evangelical)
Christianity with right-wing politics in the US, that is far from universal.

Most of the Christian churches described in the Bible are, in many ways,
socialist communes.

~~~
zbyte64
And in many ways that is how the early Church started. It provided social
services that the failing states of the time could not.

