
The Humiliating Practice of Sex-Testing Female Athletes - Avshalom
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html
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mumblerino
From my understanding, the sole reason that many sports are sex-segregated is
because women can’t compete at men’s levels in those sports.

Why else have a male soccer and female soccer (other than historical reasons
that could, nowadays, be abolished)?

Female-only sports exist to favor women. Parasports exist for a similar
reason. If you can’t prove to be part of either group, one would just have to
take your word for it.

If a random guy said “I’m a woman,” would that have to be enough?

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dmitrygr
> If a random guy said “I’m a woman,” would that have to be enough?

yes:

[https://abcnews.go.com/US/transgender-teens-outrun-track-
fie...](https://abcnews.go.com/US/transgender-teens-outrun-track-field-
competitors-critics-close/story?id=55856294)

~~~
wolco
Wow did not realize these open gender policies have resulted in such outcomes.
I guess the only option is to remove men/womens altogether and have them
complete against all sexes.

Another option is to have a separate category for them or many seperate
categories.

~~~
axaxs
I think generally all competing against all is the logical conclusion to this
mess. Biological males competing against females isn't fair, nor are
biological females on male hormones. Making a trans category could be seen as
insulting/outing, I think, and probably wouldn't have many competitors.

So outside of examining and testing every single person, seems easier to just
have them all compete together. Have weight classes where it makes sense to.

~~~
leephillips
That would mean the end of competitive sports for women. For many women and
girl athletes, it would mean the end of their ambitions, the canceling of a
lifetime of rigorous training and hope. Just so a few men who can’t compete
against other men can bring home trophies.

~~~
axaxs
Everyone wants equality until it affects them negatively then, it seems.

Being a smartass aside, I don't think it will be the end of competitive sports
for women. I think we'll see new sports emerge, which would be pretty
interesting.

~~~
throwaway189262
There's essentially no sports where women can compete on the same level as
men. The differences go beyond strength.

For a man and woman the same weight: Men have stronger bones, much higher
oxygen capacity, faster reaction time, better motion tracking, higher fatigue
tolerance, better aerobic endurance, higher pain threshold.

An interesting development would be co-ed professional sports with teams that
have a fixed number of men and women. I think this is the best we could hope
for as far as equality in sports

~~~
axaxs
But you end up back in the same position. You have a 5 person team
requirement, 3 men and 2 women. Where do you put trans?

~~~
slater
In the gender that the transitioning person identifies with.

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kinkrtyavimoodh
There's a saying that the best argument against democracy is a five-minute
conversation with the average voter.

Likewise, I propose that the best argument in favor of having these categories
is five seconds (/minutes/hours/days depending on the sport) of watching a
mixed group of 'elite' athletes (of all genders, disabilities or lack thereof)
competing with each other.

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nradov
Ross Tucker from The Science of Sport has written extensively on this issue.
It's worth reading to understand the medical and performance issues.

[https://sportsscientists.com/thread/caster-
semenya/](https://sportsscientists.com/thread/caster-semenya/)

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Bostonian
Eliminating separate divisions for women, as many here advocate, effectively
means shutting women out of many competitive sports. How is that that a good
thing? My daughter, in high school, knows that she cannot compete with the
best male volleyball players and has said so. Why shouldn't she be able to
compete?

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InfiniteRand
I am curious, if you divided by weight tiers do you think there would still be
a significant athletic advantage for men over women in sports like sprinting?

~~~
leephillips
You don’t have to guess about these things. Just look up the stats. Without
sex segregation, there are no competitive sports for women.

~~~
stallmanite
I agree 100%. Unfortunately you severely undermine your argument by referring
to transwomen as “men who can’t compete with other men and want to take home a
few trophies.”

I am frankly irritated by identity politics but your approach of misgendering
transgender athletes and asserting that anyone would go through all the pain
and disruption of transitioning to another sex and getting permanent surgical
modifications to their bodies because they are “Men who can’t compete with
other men” comes across as disgusting and dehumanizing. As if transwomen are
craven losers who have thought of this crazy scam to win in athletic
competitions. You’re going to make people who agree with your main argument
re: women needing their own leagues “back away slowly” because you’re spouting
really disgusting misconceptions about trans people in the process.

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throwaway23838
Maybe it's time to stop separating sports competitors into binary genders.

We already separate people into performance levels - why not do that
irrespective of 'gender'? People would still be able to be 'top' of their
performance level, it just wouldn't be called a 'woman' level or 'man' level
anymore.

~~~
dpbriggs
There's the reality that there's considerable althetic differences at the
highest levels.

By not grouping at the source you'll end up with almost all women being
strictly lower in the rankings, which is undesirable for obvious reasons.

Not to mention the deluge of articles decrying sexism when reality is getting
in the way.

~~~
throwaway23838
If people really want to differentiate between men and women for some reason I
can't understand they could still say themselves 'top person identifying as a
woman'. Just don't make it part of the official system so other people can
ignore it if they want.

You could be the 'only woman in level 4 sprinting'.

And wouldn't it be better for women - if they're able to push beyond other
women and also compete with men? There would certainly be men in lower tiers
than the top tier women.

~~~
statguy
I don't see how it would be better for women. If Serena Williams is in a
league 3 levels below Roger Federer, playing with no name male players [1],
what would that do to her star-power, endorsements, contracts?

[1] [http://www.tennisnow.com/Blogs/NET-
POSTS/November-2017-(1)/T...](http://www.tennisnow.com/Blogs/NET-
POSTS/November-2017-\(1\)/The-Man-Who-Beat-Venus-and-Serena-Back-to-Back.aspx)

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jokit
Just add "Y" and "no Y" to the criteria. We can handle having competitions
with age, weight, ability, and formerly gender.. Just add Y chromosome, and
then no prejudice, or assumption, and nothing to take offense to.

