
Magic Lantern - chris_overseas
https://www.magiclantern.fm/
======
javchz
Recently I got a second hand "Canon EOS M" it's an old Mirrorless, for only
$200 USD.

Thanks to ML I can get footage at 2.5K in 12-bit RAW, or pseudo-4K in an
anamorphic format. If you're a film student in a small budget, the amazing
work from the people behind the project it's a gift from heaven, as the
quality it's almost film-like (ready for regular LUTs).

Basically you can have RED or BlackMagic Camera color and HDR kinda-quality
with a small budget... and a lot or patience and free time.

Still tho... I would not use ML RAW for a client in production projects (like
a wedding or commercial), as most builds are in a "Always-Beta" state, with a
lot a bugs and slow editing workflow for a professional setting. So in those
cases, I would recommend record in old h264 in a flat profile, and use all
other ML features like zebras, and live histogram.

Kudos for the ML Devs, who against all logic, are giving ton of work for the
indie film community.

~~~
wjvdhoek
HN tip of the month ;)

When Canon released the EOS M as its first mirrorless camera, it hasn't gone
down well in many reviews as it's a slow performer[0]. Now, this has actually
been addressed in a later firmware upgrade, but at that point the damage had
already been done. After that, Canon basically dumped this camera on the
market at very low prices.

Good thing for us is that this little camera can now be bought very cheap
second hand (got mine last year at around $100) Once you load up ML, you get a
fantastic fun little camera! I'm not very experienced with shooting video but
for photography, it's a wonderful experience. Focus peeking, magic zoom,
interval photography, all for free.

Many kudos to the ML devs from this side as well!

[0]
[https://kenrockwell.com/canon/eos-m/m.htm](https://kenrockwell.com/canon/eos-m/m.htm)

------
russellbeattie
I'm sort of amazed at the cost of high-end cameras, especially when what
separates it from a modern smartphone seems to be nothing but bigger/faster
sensors and the ability to use big lenses. The camera manufacturers use the
lowest powered CPUs they can get away with, running proprietary real-time
operating systems with horrible UX and no third party support. For the price
of a high end laptop. It really seems like something is off in the market -
but there doesn't seem to be any sort of real change happening.

I needed to do some video work last year, so I basically followed Casey
Neistat's suggestion for a Canon camera, only to find out it wouldn't allow me
to export the video live via an HDMI cable without the camera's overlay on
top. Turning all the elements off still left me with a red dot in the corner.
Apparently I got the wrong model and the one $800 more expensive would do
this. After a while I gave up, went back to the store and got a cheap video
camera that could do it, BUT again, I had to get the more expensive version,
because the same model in the cheaper option didn't allow this particular use
case.

I was really surprised by how backwards this all was! Proprietary OSs,
artificially limited functionality, anemic processors, interfaces out of the
1980s. It's crazy!

Has someone slapped Android on a decent camera yet?

~~~
alanbernstein
They're not for everyone, but I think you're overlooking quite a bit. The
larger sensor is crucial in low-light situations, and a smaller phone camera
just won't handle that. The "horrible UX" is faster by a significant margin,
partly by being a dedicated device, partly by having a lot of dedicated
buttons, and partly because the response time on pressing the shutter release
button is extremely short. If you want to carry a camera for capturing events
or moments quickly, I'm not sure that a phone will do that for you.

And yes, the high-end full-frame DSLR costs are on par with high-end laptops,
but IMO you get 90% of the benefit for a fraction of the cost with an entry-
or mid-level crop sensor.

As for the UIs, I'll definitely acknowledge they could stand some updates, but
the way you describe it sounds like an overstatement. What would you improve,
exactly?

~~~
woolvalley
A photo management UI on par with smartphones. Fast, easy to use and easy to
do edits and sharing with. Along with GPS, WiFi & LTE connectivity that
doesn't suck. Maybe direct app integration with instagram and other apps. Put
an OLED screen on the back, not just the viewfinder.

Basically slap a fucking android phone on the back when browsing photos. Make
it a separate CPU if necessary.

Embrace the 'casual camera' body style more. The viewfinder should not be a
big chunky thing in the center, but on the side and a pop up if necessary. Get
rid of grips and make them a uniform rectangle, and add a battery grip in the
box to make it slr grippy. People are scared of slr style bodies, while they
are not scared of casual camera bodies.

They will continue serving the standard pro market who want the big chunky slr
style bodies, this is how they can capture the 'high quality life memory /
instagram influencer' market better.

~~~
frankchn
The mass market casual camera today is a smartphone, which comes with what you
describe.

Canon, Nikon, and others have long decided they can’t and won’t compete with
smartphone makers and are increasingly moving up-market to the prosumer and
professional markets who want “big chunky SLR body styles”, and they use
specialized software like Capture One and Photo Mechanic to view/edit/organize
photos anyway.

~~~
LorenPechtel
While I will agree SLR body styles are easier to use we don't __want __them,
it 's that we accept that the size and weight are the price we need to pay for
the performance that you simply can't get out of a phone.

These days when the shot is easy the phone is at least in the ballpark with
the big guys. When the shot is hard the phone isn't even in the running.

~~~
staticautomatic
There's also the whole world of non-SLR pro cameras.

------
dylan604
I now hold the belief that any Canon camera that does not have Magic Lantern
installed is broken. I use it on my 5DmkII, and it's an entirely different
camera. I love the features that ML brings to me for shooting stills (I don't
shoot video on my DSLR). An internal intervalometer is worth its weight in
gold. The ETTR ability is also priceless for chasing sunsets/rises. For how I
use my mkII, the only thing that I have that's nit picky about ML is that it
can't handle intervals less than 5 seconds. When it comes to requiring shorter
intervals, I do pull out a wired intervalometer, but that's rare.

One thing that I'd love to figure out is how to have ML control the timelapse,
but have the camera signal to an external motion controller. Usually, the
motion controllers want to control the camera so everything is in sync.
However, as ETTR increases the shutter time chasing a sunset, the motion
controller needs to know to delay the move. I have built devices connected to
the shutter release port waiting for the voltages to change, but that didn't
work. Was hoping that the voltage would drop when triggered internally, but it
seems the port isn't wired way. Almost like they might have an opto-isolator
on the port or some other method to protect the port but it doesn't allow the
voltage to drop when triggered by the camera itself.

~~~
PunksATawnyFill
I'd expand that to "Canon is broken."

This company has needed a management house-cleaning for at least a decade.
They're just wandering in the weeds at this point. Does no one there actually
pursue filmmaking or photography? It's unreal.

I mean... there's no excuse for any digital camera, especially one made in the
last decade, not to have an intervalometer. It's essentially FREE to
implement.

But then, Canon's the company that was still pushing interlaced video well
into the 2000s and launched the SLR video revolution... with a camera that
could shoot 25 and 30 but not 24 FPS.

~~~
irq
Exactly none of Sony’s latest full frame mirrorless cameras have a built in
intervalometer, and there is no way to install one. So it’s not just Canon.

~~~
janekm
You'll be happy to know that it's supposed to come in the April firmware
update, though.

------
mseidl
I recently purchased an 5d mk iii and installed magic lantern on it. The 14bit
raw video is AMAZING. Also, this particular camera can now record at, I think
the limit is 3.5k vs 1080p from the factory.

[https://youtu.be/6yKbwXYmpD0](https://youtu.be/6yKbwXYmpD0)

~~~
pen2l
That video, with the pre- and post- differences is pretty remarkable.

Here's my stupid question of the day: given that this color-grading of RAW
streams makes _SUCH_ a massive difference... why don't companies like Conan
and Sony just ship it with the product? Why do their cameras fall short of
having something like Magic Lantern? In the end it gives the customer what
they want... surely Sony/Canon are capable of producing something like this,
so why not produce it?

~~~
Franciscouzo
Most probably because it would compete with the Canon EOS product line.

~~~
Godel_unicode
The full name of the 5d mark II is Canon EOS 5d mark II.

~~~
Franciscouzo
I meant the cinema EOS line...

------
tambourine_man
Imagine if Apple and Google made full frame cameras.

Currently we have great hardware with terrible software and vice-versa.

A Sony full frame sensor, Zeiss glass, with an A series chip and good software
to make it shine.

~~~
jazzyjackson
Apple is allergic to buttons so I can't see them producing a camera with a
real user interface (knobs and rings and so on)

Leica T series is probably pretty close to what they would come up with tho.
Solid block of metal, and nothing but screen on the back.

~~~
StavrosK
You can't work like that. I have a 5D and a Sony RX-100, and, given that I've
taken good enough photos with my phone, the differences in the sensor are
relatively minor. The UX differences, however, are light years apart. It takes
me tens of seconds to change the settings like I want them on the Sony,
whereas on the Canon they're a knob away.

I'm pretty sure that the major difference between a pro and a consumer camera
is the amount of easily accessible buttons and knobs.

~~~
Eiriksmal
>I'm pretty sure that the major difference between a pro and a consumer camera
is the amount of easily accessible buttons and knobs.

Precisely this. After 10K shots on a Canon 1200D, I upgraded to an 80D
specifically to have access to the top controls to quickly change settings
while shooting. You can remap a lot of the 1200D's controls in the "Expert
Feature"/customizations section, but the 80D's extra ergonomics are a true
joy. The camera is molded to my hands and comfortable to wield for hours at a
time.

I can't say the same for the smartphones I shoot with. My Blackberry KeyOne's
camera has fully manual controls (even the focus distance can be manually
set!), but the "slide your finger to control settings" UI sometimes feels like
the "Reddit designs volume control" experiment from a few years ago. I
empathize with the Java programmers, but it's extremely frustrating to tell
the smartphone what kind of picture I want. It should go without saying that
it's equally frustrating to be unable to hold the slab phone adequately still.

Reading people's passionate hatred for real cameras makes it quite clear that
they aren't the target audience for a simple mid-range DSLR, let alone
monsters like the 1D or Nikon D5.

------
css
Also, for non-DSLRs:
[http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK](http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK)

~~~
feedbeef
CHDK, with its built-in LUA scripting, is incredible. I've used it to outfit
cheap (<$30 USD) point and shoot Canon cameras for time-lapse.

------
walesmd
Why the hell are they capturing keyboard inputs of the q, v, m, l, and p keys
and updating the URI w/ navigational things? Makes CMD+L useless...

Looks like the are supposedly emulating some of the camera's functions? I
don't know enough about this camera for it to make any sense to me.

~~~
btown
Looks like they were trying to create a mock of the user interface that's
fully functional in the browser. It's really cool, great to demo, and they
probably wanted to put it in the URI so you can share a link to a specific
page. Maybe they even use the same UI code for both browser and the embedded
system?

But in practice they implemented this poorly. They could update the URI with
replaceState so you don't break the back button, and ignore keyboard shortcuts
if a modifier key is pressed. One of the reasons I like projects with open-
source websites - you can just file an issue on the website itself!

------
mmaunder
5DMkII owner here. I love ML and have been a canon user for over 20 years. But
I recently switched to Sony as have many other Canon users I meet because
Canon is not innovating as well as Sony. Better sensors, features, ergonomics
and capabilities. The A7Sii is a thing of beauty. Includes many ML features
built in like focus peaking, zebra lines, etc. And you van remove the 30 min
limit on recording via a hack so no need for MLs features that try to help
with that.

Also Sony make sensors for many other camera companies including Nikon.

~~~
bpye
My (relatively) inexpensive Panasonic GX-80 (GX-85 in some markets) has those
features. How are Canon so far behind?

The biggest issue with the GX-85 for film is it's lack of audio in, that can
be circumvented with a seperate audio recorder but it's certainly not perfect.

------
djfergus
I'm surprised Magic Lantern hasn't been sued out of existence by Canon. Canon
is notorious for holding back simple software features from entry-level
cameras to price differentiate. Customisable firmware is a threat to their
business model...

For the same reason I'm curious that Sony is not more open - their strategy
appears to be the opposite of Canon, throwing in the kitchen sink of features
into their entry level bodies. And yet they have removed tha ability to load
Android apps onto their latest cameras...

~~~
plants
Conversely, Magic Lantern is a reason for consumers to pick Canon over Nikon
or some other camera brand. I imagine there are also at least some differences
in the quality of sensors between high-end and lower-end DSLRs?

------
Waterluvian
Why .fm? I instantly felt confident this was internet radio related.

~~~
mjlee
Firmware perhaps?

~~~
half-kh-hacker
QMK firmware do it too: [https://qmk.fm](https://qmk.fm)

------
beagle3
Started by Trammell Hudson of Thunderstrike fame (and many other interesting
projects), see [https://trmm.net](https://trmm.net)

------
jakecopp
If you're new to Magic Lantern and need a getting started guide, here is an in
depth tutorial I created :)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHzQkJNMIzU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHzQkJNMIzU)

~~~
PavlovsCat
To repay you here's a little random tip, because the sound on that video is
kinda boxy (with my headphones anyway), and this helped me greatly (to be
honest, it kinda blew me mind how much this can fix)

With a sample editor that can use VST/AU effects, and the free version of
this, or something that has the same functionality:
[https://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-nova/](https://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-nova/)

1\. take a frequency band, put the Q for it to max or near max, and gain to
max.

2\. sweep the frequency until you find the one that makes it sound extremely
boxy (it's probably below 1k but don't take my word for it, you _will_ hear it
when you found it however)

3\. now set gain to zero, activate the threshold button, and dial the
threshold to a value that just makes the boxyness disappear without making it
sound _too_ thin

4\. repeat with more frequencies as needed/wanted

5\. compress or normalize

~~~
richrichardsson
What you're mostly doing there is working out the resonances of your
room/speakers/headphones. Sorry to say it, but this is terrible advice on how
to apply corrective EQ.

~~~
PavlovsCat
So, what's a better way? Let's see your not terrible advice.

> resonances of your room/speakers/headphones

Yet the frequencies that stand out depend so much on the input material, and
arent't the same between recordings in different rooms or with different mics,
even with the same playback setup. Weird.

As the manual of that VST so terribly states

> This is an excellent tool to correct a boxy low-endsound, even out
> resonances in a recording or reduce excessive sibilance in a vocal part.

Sure, they don't outline this specific approach, but others do, sadly:

[https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-do-
pinpoint-...](https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-do-pinpoint-
nasty-resonances)

> In my experience visual analysis won’t usually help a great deal here, and
> you have to adopt more of a ‘hunt and peck’ approach, sweeping a narrow EQ
> boost around the spectrum and then placing an EQ cut wherever the boost
> sounds most unappealing

And it just goes on and on :(

[http://indierecordingdepot.com/t/how-do-i-find-resonant-
freq...](http://indierecordingdepot.com/t/how-do-i-find-resonant-
frequencies/1270)

Of course, since you said it's such terrible advice, my ears noticing the
results are probably lying to me, and I can hardly wait to find out how to do
it correctly at last.

~~~
richrichardsson
_If_ you are going to use that technique, _don 't_ use extreme Q settings,
because as I said you are mostly going to be finding resonances that aren't
actually in the signal, but are part of listening in your specific
environment. Granted you will find some of the problem frequencies from the
source, but with a much lower Q you're at least less likely to find stuff that
isn't. EQ should be applied gently, if you require extreme settings then you
have a shitty source material, take some steps to correct that. There are no
pro-spec EQ hardware units that offer such extreme Q settings, because they
are next to useless except in extremely limited circumstances.

Just because something is repeated a lot doesn't automatically make it a great
idea: see "Brexit means Brexit" or "Build The Wall" for examples.

------
MayeulC
I apologize if that's a bit off-topic, but I would appreciate some advice on
where to start with decent digital photography.

I am in no way a professional photographer, but I have mostly used some
relatively budget smart phones to take pictures these past years (my previous
experiences were with a canon compact circa 2002-2008, and film). I do not
have a great budget for photography, since it isn't my main hobby (and am
still studying), but would appreciate some of the features I saw in the
discussion thread & website, notably: \- the ability to shoot RAW pictures \-
the ability to shoot professional-ish looking videos \- an open firmware I can
tinker with and learn from is a great plus \- if the device is moddable or has
some available interface ports, that would be nice as well \- maybe a
timelapse/timer function? (though that sounds quite simple to implement with
the above).

Would compact cameras be the way to go (they're a plus for travel, I think)?
Or would a cheap (second hand) DSLR be way better? Any specific brand
suggestions?

Thank you in advance for the advice!

~~~
dingaling
I'm a lifelong SLR shooter but I was posed the same question recently.

Micro Four-Thirds MILCs appear to be very capable, affordable and portable.
I'd suggest you look at Panasonic or Olympus, they seem to have excellent
lenses which is what really defines the photo. Fuji are also well spoken of
but I think they use bigger APS-C sensors. Check out DP Review website.

Getting into used 'big' DSLR instead would probably cost about $1600 ( used 6D
and 24-70 or 24-105 f/4 lens) which is a lot to gamble on a new hobby. And
contrary to legend, they don't hold value. I've been quoted less than 50%
trade-in value on from-new Canon L lenses. Unless you're buying Leica,
photography is not an investment; be prepared to lose money unless you manage
to sell your photos in volume.

------
acidburnNSA
I used this to get a software intervalometer on my T5i and now I can take
awesome timelapses of things. It's really a nice set of features.

------
gjsman-1000
GoPro once released a camera called the GoPro HERO (2018). It didn't take long
for some hackers to realize it was a stock-clearing trick and was actually a
GoPro Hero 5 Black with some of the software features disabled. They then
figured out a way to install the GoPro Hero 5 Black software on it, re-
enabling all of the disabled features.

That... I'm not so sure where that is, morally.

~~~
EvangelicalPig
The ML folks have sworn off working on higher end cameras (1DX and similar)
because of thinly veiled legal threats from Canon, although I'd personally be
concerned about bricking a camera that expensive.

~~~
post_break
Which is total BS and allows Canon to drag their feet to add features that the
cameras are completely capable of. It's kind of a joke that a camera can do
complex things yet the only thing holding it back are firmware updates. Canon
could even charge for say a "film" firmware for their DSLR cameras to enable
these features, disable AGM, etc. But they have to protect their film cameras
that even still miss features ML brings to the table.

~~~
EvangelicalPig
Agreed.

I wish a development team in a "better" jurisdiction would fork ML and
continue on with it.

Sigh

------
_pmf_
Does anyone know if there's an equivalent project for Nikon (D 5000)? On a
first quick search, I've found nothing comparable.

------
sandworm101
A poor choice of names imho. When I see "magic lantern" on HN I think of
something totally different.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Lantern_(software)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Lantern_\(software\))

"Magic Lantern is keystroke logging software developed by the United States'
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Magic Lantern was first reported in a
column by Bob Sullivan of MSNBC on 20 November 2001[1] and by Ted Bridis of
the Associated Press.[2]"

------
djfergus
There are similar efforts afoot for Sony cameras but have never reached the
level of Magic Lantern.

e.g [https://www.dyxum.com/dforum/emount-electronic-protocol-
reve...](https://www.dyxum.com/dforum/emount-electronic-protocol-reverse-
engineering_topic119522.html)

[https://sony-pmca.appspot.com/apps](https://sony-pmca.appspot.com/apps)

------
stets
I have a canon rebel t2i sitting on my shelf I bought from a friend and
haven't touched. How can I install this and learn some basic photography
skills? I used to like making stop motion vids and that's why I bought it but
I'm overwhelmed with all of the options.

~~~
stevekemp
What part of the installation instructions was confusing?

[https://wiki.magiclantern.fm/install](https://wiki.magiclantern.fm/install)

Unrelated to that learning basic photography skills mostly involves learning
the relationship between ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. You can google
guides, probably attend a course in a local university/college, or adult-
educational center, and also experiment via trial and error.

~~~
stets
None of the installation is confusing -- just the actual camera skills part.

------
m3at
I wonder why Canon refrain from supporting this kind of projects by providing
documentation on how to interface with the hardware (without going as far as
stamping it as official). It seems that it make their products more attractive
at no cost for them. Any drawbacks?

~~~
0-_-0
My suspicion is that so few people are using these features that it's not
worth the effort. Disclosing the details of the hardware could also open them
up to litigation if a competitor finds something slightly similar to something
they already patented.

------
microcolonel
Very cool, I am absolutely shocked that Sony doesn't offer basically any
control over bitrates or framerates (on the α7/9), except extremely rigid
profiles; I doubt the hardware is actually that restrictive.

------
baroffoos
I will probably never use this but I am delighted every time I see the OS
community reverse engineer something and provide a better, open source version
while having a fraction of the resources and information.

------
oftenwrong
Better headline:

"Magic Lantern: a free firmware add-on for Canon EOS cameras"

------
xiconfjs
I'd love to have something like ML for my Sony Alpha :(

~~~
chaoticmass
Pretty sure my A99ii will never see anything cool like this.

------
alphagrep12345
How did these guys reverse engineer Canon's software?

~~~
BioGeek
Trammell Hudson in 2009 reverse engineered the firmware of the Canon EOS 5D
Mark II because he was frustrated with some of the limitations in the camera's
firmware when making short films. That little hack turned into Magic Lantern.
On his website [1] you'll find a screenshot [2] of his first success: adding
three extra vanity letters to the firmware version number. He states: "Re-
writing strings is a good easy technique for figuring out if you have 'won'
and your code is running on the system."

[1]
[https://trmm.net/Taking_things_apart#Extending](https://trmm.net/Taking_things_apart#Extending)
[2]
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/osr/16412008471/lightbox/](https://www.flickr.com/photos/osr/16412008471/lightbox/)

------
unictek
With magic lantern, is it possible to stream the video from the camera to a
host computer? For example to use it like a webcam

~~~
fmj
You might not even need magic lantern for that. I have a 77d and it streams a
live view to the Canon EOS utility over WiFi. Quality seems pretty good. I
haven't looked into it myself, but I wouldn't be too surprised if someone has
written software to stream from it in this mode.

------
dgellow
Hmm, I see a blank page on mobile (firefox, iOS).

------
piahoo
sorry for stupid question, does this software support all the EOS M series?
M50, M5, M6, M100?

~~~
0-_-0
The list of supported cameras is right on the front page.

The list of cameras supported by CHDK is on the front page here:
[http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK](http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK)

To summarize, ML supports M and M2, CHDK supports M3 and M10. There was some
progress on the rest.

------
bane
obligatory, is there something like this for Nikon cameras?

~~~
sakopov
There is NikonHacker [1], but I don't think it's nearly as feature-rich as
Magic Lantern.

[1]
[https://nikonhacker.com/wiki/Main_Page](https://nikonhacker.com/wiki/Main_Page)

------
gammateam
One thing I want in full frame EVIL cameras is live photos capability

Record from 1 keyframe to the next keyframe, take full resolution still at the
user clicked place in between

And done as automatic as it happens on iOS

