
Etsy Wants to Give Female Programmers $5,000 to Attend Hacker School - 3lit3H4ck3r
http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/06/etsy-wants-to-give-female-programmers-5000-to-attend-hacker-school/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29
======
tjic
I realize that I'm going to be in the minority here, but I find it disgusting
that it's not just socially acceptable, but downright applauded to
discriminate against 50% of the population because - through no fault of their
own - they were born with male equipment.

Yes, yes, I understand the argument that it's somehow desirable to change the
gender makeup of engineering (although I've yet to see programs aimed at
fixing the general balance in elementary school teaching or nursing), but this
does nothing to address the problem that there are INDIVIDUALS who might like
to apply for a grant but are excluded because of what's inside their
underwear.

~~~
dominikb
Maybe you're complicating this. It's just a basic principle of capitalism and
freedom. Etsy can give away their money to anyone they choose to, if it helps
them commercially (or in any other way).

We should consider this socially acceptable for our own good.

~~~
tjic
> Maybe you're complicating this. It's just a basic principle of capitalism
> and freedom. Etsy can give away their money to anyone they choose to, if it
> helps them commercially (or in any other way).

100% agreed.

I stand for the right for every firm to pass out scholarships, hire, fire,
etc. based on all sorts of things: I support the RIGHT of bookstore owners to
exclude on race, the RIGHT of golf courses to exclude on sex, etc.

...but once we turn from the topic of what people should be ALLOWED to do, and
address what people SHOULD do, I will say that I dislike people who exclude on
race, sex, sexual orientation, etc.

Your uncle has the RIGHT to be racist (thought it makes him a jackass), and
Etsy has the RIGHT to be sexist and judge people based on the accident of
their birth instead of the content of their character.

...and it makes them jackasses.

------
carlsednaoui
Im going to be "that guy" but this story was already on HN's frontpage
yesterday (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3804508>).

Additionally, as per HN's guideline, I would suggest linking to the original
piece of information being <http://www.etsy.com/hacker-grants> and not the TC
one.

I tend to do this mistake myself (link to TC posts instead of the original
one) but have realized that the HN community prefers to see the original
source (from the HN guidelines: Please submit the original source. If a blog
post reports on something they found on another site, submit the latter.).

~~~
madd_o
Dude! Stop being "that guy"!

Sorry, didn't realize this. Gotta catch up on my HN rss.

------
drhayes9
Grants and scholarships based on minority status are bigoted, yes, but not in
a bad way.

Hear me out.

The negative reaction to bigotry arises from a perceived inequality: one group
is getting favored over another, and that's unfair. Sure.

But that assumes that both groups started out equal in the first place. If one
group were at a disadvantage then giving them a leg up merely equalizes what
was already an unequal playing field. So, in this example, men have been and
continue to dominate professionally by almost any metric we care to look at
across the entire population (salary, job title, etc.). Helping out women in
this regard is an attempt to level the playing field.

That said, in practice it is not that easy. Quotas are my favorite anti-
pattern in this arena; they simply don't work and do more harm than good. In
this case, I'm a little leery because Etsy has financial motivations behind
wanting to be seen as women-friendly. A government offering this kind of
scholarship as a social contract effort is more neutral to me; a business
offering it as a marketing effort is more suspect. Maybe I'm too cynical,
though.

~~~
tjic
> But that assumes that both groups started out equal in the first place.

Women get more degrees.

Women live longer.

Women work less, yet collection social security longer.

Women get equal pay for the same experience in the same job.

If Etsy is doing this just as a purely cynical marketing stunt, playing to
their female demographic, I could have some respect for them, in the same way
that I respect a sleazy salesman, or an alligator.

...but if they think that they're "solving" a "problem" by discriminating
against young men, then they're just fools.

~~~
drhayes9
> Women get equal pay for the same experience in the same job.

That goes against a whole lot of sociological research, including CEO pay in
the private sector and professors at the academia level. Where are you getting
that idea?

One third of all women are killed by an intimate partner. Women ages 20-24 are
disproportionately the victim of non-fatal domestic violence.

Women live longer? Well, okay: that doesn't have to do with pay scale or work
inequality, though, right? They don't live longer because someone is deciding
to let them live longer, but they do get less money because some institution
is deciding they should get less money.

Ultimately, how do any of these facts relate to professional equality?

~~~
tjic
> > Women get equal pay for the same experience in the same job.

> That goes against a whole lot of sociological research

No it doesn't.

Here's a report that the Department of Labor commissioned

[http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20...](http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf)

TL;DR: women and men with the same experience and the same job get the same
salary. Women, though (a) opt out of the labor force to have and raise kids,
and (b) opt out of high paying jobs that are dangerous or require insane time
commitments.

Feel free to respond with any actual statistics you may have.

> One third of all women are killed by an intimate partner.

One third.

ONE THIRD??!?

Let's see what the CDC has to say:

<http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm>

1,219,784 women died in the US in 2009.

3,673 died of homicide.

That means that 0.28% of women were killed by ANYONE.

...yet you claim that 33% of women are killed by their intimate partners.

~~~
drhayes9
The violence statistic was a mistype: one third of women murdered are murdered
by an intimate partner.

Check this out:
[http://jec.senate.gov/public/?a=Files.Serve&File_id=9118...](http://jec.senate.gov/public/?a=Files.Serve&File_id=9118a9ef-0771-4777-9c1f-8232fe70a45c)

It refers to your study, but clarifies some stuff.

All other things being equal (skills, experience, etc), resumes with female
names were responded to less than resumes with male names.

Women who have children are paid less than men who have children in the same
occupation even if they are at the same level.

In nearly every study of gender inequality in pay, there is an unexplained
discrepancy that favors men.

------
karinqe
How would you feel about "Etsy Wants to Give Male Programmers $5,000 to Attend
Hacker School"?

It would be in the news all over the country. If you can't switch male/female
without feeling like it's wrong one way, it's wrong the other way too.

~~~
GiraffeNecktie
Just because it's wrong one way doesn't make it wrong the other way. It's
wrong for Etsy to give male programmers money because women are already
underrepresented and, in many ways, disadvantaged in a male dominated hacker
culture. It would also not be wrong to give poor black kids a chance (even
though it would be wrong to "discriminate" against white kids).

~~~
karinqe
The point of non-discrimination is EQUALITY between people of all races and
genders. So if you can't switch the sides, they are not equal and it is wrong.

This is just madness. You can give poor black kids a chance by giving them
equal rights and rules. Anyway, woman are underrepresented by their own choice
and are in no way disadvantaged. I actually feel it is the opposite, that as a
woman, I'm in advantage in IT.

------
pandres
It's not only sexist but also stating clear that there is a handicap in being
a female programmer.

