
Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace - jackgavigan
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/business/dealbook/tragedies-draw-attention-to-wall-streets-grueling-pace.html
======
touchofevil
My background is film production, which is an industry that I think has really
tested the limits of how many hours a person can work without dying. If a film
shoot could work their crew more hours, they would, but at a certain point
your crew will die in car accidents on their way to and from set due to sleep
deprivation. See a documentary called "Who Needs Sleep?" for more on that.

Thanks to unions in the film industry there are rules about how many hours a
crew can work in a day without the production incurring very expensive
overtime penalties. For example, once an actor is on set for 16 hours, they
hit what is called "Golden Time" and they are paid their full day rate every
hour. There's also a 12 hour turnaround for actors, meaning that if an actor
is wrapped at 8pm, they can't be called to set until 8:00am the following day
(there is a 10 hour turnaround time for crew).

Film shoots are extremely time-sensitive endeavors. You might only have rented
a location for one day, so there is a lot of pressure to shoot everything you
need for the movie at that location, no matter how far overtime the production
must push their crew. This would quickly get out of control if overtime rules
were not stringently enforced.

The result is that every day of a film production is scheduled down to the
minute before the day even begins, ideally. Night crews and swing-shifts get
scheduled, rather than working a crew for 24 hours straight, again ideally.

My point is that it is possible to do time-sensitive, high-pressure,
complicated work without pushing people past their physical limits. It just
requires tons of planning and scheduling. However the only way to get an
employer to put resources into planning and scheduling is to make sure that
there are incentives (or disincentives) for them to behave this way. There
must be strict financial penalties that prevent employees at banks from
working too many hours. A 29 year-old banker getting a $400,000 bonus is not
going to tell his employer that he needs to leave the office by 7pm anymore
than an aspiring Hollywood actress is going to tell her director that the crew
must stop shooting because it is past her bedtime. In certain industries,
where jobs are highly sought after and rewards are large, you cannot depend on
workers to regulate themselves.

------
JumpCrisscross
> _You can’t really stand out because most of what you’re doing does not
> require original thinking. So the only way you can distinguish yourself is
> by sheer endurance._

Several years ago, when I was weighing junior roles in trading and banking, a
private equity manager with whom I consulted advised: "nobody became a
millionaire by being a grunt".

Hard work is important, but it shouldn't be your chief differentiator. On a
broader level, I've always found firms that rely on over-working their junior
staff to (a) have rotten pathways for internal advancement and (b) a sore bias
towards throwing grunts, versus technology, at process problems.

~~~
thomasfl
Thank's for sharing this inside info. It's hard to imagine a better example to
explain the importance of rest and sleep even if people are motived to keep on
working.

------
asimilator
> there is no evidence that the incidence of suicide by young professionals on
> Wall Street is higher than in any other industry.

Doesn't this undermine the premise of the article? The deaths are tragic, but
if the suicide rate of Wall Street professionals is no higher than normal how
can the suicides be tied to the "grueling pace" as opposed to whatever causes
suicide in the general population?

~~~
pm90
For one thing, the people that work on Wall Street are highly educated, mostly
Ivy League types (from the article). I guess the premise is that if you were
smart/rich enough to get that, society expected you to succeed spectacularly,
not jump to your death. i.e. the expectation is that the suicide rate be
negligible.

------
cm2187
Junior doctors do similar hours, sleeping a couple of hours at the hospital
when they can.

What is absurd is that the long hours juniors do in investment banking are
terribly inefficient.

First because they spend them on tasks that could be automated or outsourced:
compiling financials, formatting powerpoints (Microsoft shares a large part of
responsability for their poor UI!).

Second because the more tired they become, the less efficient they are at what
they do. It is often the case that they would probably get the same done
quicker by calling it a day at 9pm and coming back the next day with a fresh
mind. But peer pressure prevents that.

Third because even though they spend their time at the office they actually do
not work continuously. Them staying late is more often than not because they
were assigned something at 5pm with an unrealistic deadline. In this business
managers usually disregard the implications of when in the day they give work
or feedback. And I suspect it is often because they have been there, done
that, as juniors, and have little sympathy for the juniors' time spent at the
office. It's a kind of rite of passage.

~~~
FelixP
Banker here. We actually have automated and outsourced quite a bit of the
drudgery, although doing it within the framework of Excel and PowerPoint often
requires some pretty strange contortions from a UI perspective.

------
bglazer
I just finished the longest stint of work that I've had in my short career.
Probably 80 hours for two weeks. I didn't really keep track.

I have mixed feelings. I got a lot done. The quality of work that happened
around 8-10pm was pretty low, but it got done. I did no physical activity and
my stress levels were through the roof, which led to some moments of intense
mental anguish. On the other hand, I felt a great sense of accomplishment and
knowing that I am capable of working that diligently on something is
satisfying.

So I understand why bankers work these hours and even defend them. I also
understand why someone might feel like killing themselves after working >80
hours for months or years on end.

~~~
pcunite
I've done this too. I think it is dangerous, maybe even something that could
become addictive. I know, the pressure to get the product out the door. If you
truly have down time and can truly get away, maybe there is a way. But that is
the trick, you may get trapped in that lifestyle and "just one more all
nighter".

------
nickbauman
I have a friend who is a Market Maker on Wall St. He's very successful makes a
lot of money, works very long, but he has a very low self esteem. He tells me
"I don't know how to actually do anything of any use in the world." I don't
really understand him but I think he ends up feeling like his life is
worthless. At the end of the day he could be as rich as Midas but he hasn't
figured out what life is worth even to himself.

Assuming your belly is full, I think if you're not curing cancer or something
like that you'd better be doing something that makes you happy: the work
itself has to be fun. Otherwise you could end up like this guy or my friend.

~~~
Mikeb85
The funny thing is, when it boils down to it, many jobs in our society are
superfluous... We survived without technology, with a less-developed finance
sector, without cars and airplanes, yet here we are with entire sectors of the
economy that probably aren't 'needed' for a happy life.

At least in finance you can get to a number where you can finally say 'fuck
it', and go do what you really want to do...

~~~
copperx
I can't help it but comment on how much posts regarding work/life balance
focus on optimizing for happiness, but rare is the article that mentions how
important is finding meaning in one's work to leading a fulfilling life. I
would argue, for example, that finding meaning as a grunt or even as a big
fish in the financial sector is harder than say, being a doctor. It's much
easier to work long hours as a doctor and feel content when you see that your
work has direct impact.

All of this is obvious, but I rarely see it mentioned. We should optimize for
meaning in our work, not happiness.

~~~
eanzenberg
It's more then that.. it's about perception (how you spin things). For
example, you could look at american doctors and say they mainly work on
patients of self-inflicted diseases such as heart disease, obesity, etc. Then
you could look at finance sector workers and see how they help people get
jobs, loans and move the economy forward which leads to furthering humanity's
progress and capabilities.

------
hiddencost
Reality warps in some really weird ways, the more you do this. You stop being
able to interact with your friends that aren't doing it; you stop taking care
of yourself in ways that don't feed maintenance your ability to keep grinding;
you're always "on" so you never really relax enough to reflect or see things
in other contexts or perspectives; in the back of your head you might know
there's something wrong but you maybe can't put the pieces together, and since
you've always been told you were so smart, that scares you, and you become
defensive; at some point the idea that you've been on such a wrong track for
so long becomes intolerable and rather than cut your losses you decide that
"saner" approaches are really weakness.

That's at least part of what I experienced, in a similar life style. At some
point I realized if I kept doing it, I'd end up dead or crazy in ways I didn't
want, and found alternatives that let me live and explore. But quitting was
one of the scariest things I've done in my life.

------
pcunite
Greed is cruel. A lot of us here want to "make it big". Don't do this to
yourself or to others on your journey. Behind every perverse way is a devil
whispering in your ear, "its okay". Don't listen to that.

------
Zigurd
The tragedy is that this is unnecessary. If Wall Street compensation can
support paying enormous compensation, it can support hiring enough people to
do the work. As with medical residents' brutal schedules, it's tradition over
rationality.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
I've no direct experience of this, but this is my take as well. Can anyone
explain why two people doing 50 hour weeks at half the salary wouldn't be
better for everyone (the employees, their colleagues, the firms that employ
them, their clients, society)?

~~~
DomreiRoam
I think it would be better for most people but coordination cost doesn't grow
linearly. So if part of the job imply coordination or communication you will
need more than doubling to have the same output.

~~~
dlss
Very much this. Also: knowledge production isn't a linear function of time.

"If it takes one mathematician 12 months of work to prove a theorem, how long
would it take 12 mathematicians?" ... probably 13 months :p

~~~
Zigurd
That would be true if each problem were unique, as it is in mathematics. FTA:

> _You can’t really stand out because most of what you’re doing does not
> require original thinking. So the only way you can distinguish yourself is
> by sheer endurance._

------
001sky
These three cases seem to be ill-linked in the correlation/causation
department. One was a clear medical condition; another a suicide; and the
third was linked to an event involved a relapse of substance abuse. Three
deaths of this nature could easily occur in any industry with a presence in a
major city like nY, sf, london, tokyo, hong kong, paris etc. How many
creatives list similar CODs ? Heath ledger, amy winehouse, peaches geldof and
many other creative types at varying levels of success. We can look high-risk
activities and see near-suicidal behaviour in the extreme sports athletes (RIP
dean potter and 250 others [http://base-jumping.eu/base-jumping-fatality-
list/](http://base-jumping.eu/base-jumping-fatality-list/)). And similar
medical related deaths and accidents occur in athletes even in standard sports
([http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-
fitness/healt...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-
fitness/health/conditions/why-are-high-performance-athletes-having-heart-
attacks/article4100522/)).

Which is no apology for mis-management. Its just perhaps a larger picture
issue than any single industry or particular niche. Glory and all that.

------
knight17
This is not a new development and certainly not exclusive to Wallstreet or the
City or Amazon or magic circle. It is part of the aura of these places—belief
that the endurance necessary for this kind of over work isn't present
_outside_ and that they are/will be better for overcoming this ordeal— that
this makes them different from others this is part of the exclusiveness of
these places along with the pay.

But there are many people working equally harder and sometimes even [harder].

Here is another story from less prestigious cousins of WallSt. and magic
circle law firms: Big 4 auditors! A PwC associate overworked to [18 hours a
day, 120 a week].

[harder] :
[http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/woman-n...](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/woman-
nearly-died-making-ipad)

[18 hours a day, 120 a week] :

1\. [http://offbeatchina.com/25-year-old-auditor-at-pwc-
shanghai-...](http://offbeatchina.com/25-year-old-auditor-at-pwc-shanghai-
worked-to-death-time-to-rethink-work-life-balance)

2\. [http://goingconcern.com/2011/4/did-a-pwc-auditor-work-
hersel...](http://goingconcern.com/2011/4/did-a-pwc-auditor-work-herself-to-
death)

------
confluence
My rule is that no job is worth dying for. If the expectations are
unreasonable, quit.

~~~
BadassFractal
My rule is that unless yours or a loved one's basic well-being is at stake
(e.g. you have family to support and no savings), you should not be putting up
with a job that's causing you physical or psychological distress. Obviously
situations can be complicated, but you should aim for that most of the time.

------
sobinator
A lot of good talent is wasted on Wall Street. Fortunately, most (who don't
care for the lifestyle/can't hack it) get wise and leave. The hard thing is
knowing when to exit.

~~~
Mikeb85
> A lot of good talent is wasted on Wall Street.

Why do you say that? Finance funds most of society's ventures, the 'system'
would look much different without the capital and services that the banking
sector provides...

~~~
sdenton4
What should we put as the price tag of 'increased liquidity,' just one of a
few of the mantras that the middlemen of finance use to justify themselves?

[http://www.tcf.org/blog/detail/graph-how-the-financial-
secto...](http://www.tcf.org/blog/detail/graph-how-the-financial-sector-
consumed-americas-economic-growth)

~~~
randyrand
Liquidity is only tangentially related to what the financial sector does.

It's finance that funds ventures. Assesses risk. Decides what ventures will
have good payoffs. Its' an incredibly important sector of the economy.

Tell me. Take a look at the services provided here and tell me which ones are
"bad"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_services](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_services)

People that say we shouldn't like the financial sector are people that don't
understand finance.

------
makecheck
I knew someone doing corporate accounting who left at 6 in the morning for
work, and almost always came home after midnight. 7 days a week (because who
needs weekends, right?). Since the work cycled quarterly trying to get "the
numbers", the _only_ thing that resembled a break was the end of a quarter;
and even then, this pathetic "break" was like a single day because they felt
they had to get started on the next quarter.

He actually told me that divorces were fairly common among his co-workers. I
wonder why.

He appeared to be paid well but (as others have noted) certainly not nearly
enough when you divide a seemingly-impressive salary into an hourly rate.

And frankly I think peer pressure was a big problem. All throughout the chain,
it's like they're all too afraid to be the first to say "wtf is this?" and
propose a sane work week.

If I extrapolate this type of job to the number of large companies out there,
I am astounded by the number of people whose lives are essentially ruined by
quarter-to-quarter. It's garbage. Decades ago companies did not seem so
pressured to show results each quarter or come up with insane ways to avoid
taxes; they just pursued a reasonable profit.

------
CurtMonash
I was on Wall Street in the 1980s. Things weren't that bad yet. I was the only
stock analyst in a department of ~50 who routinely pulled all-nighters, which
was one of many reasons I was considered odd. There was only one guy who
definitely flamed out on cocaine, and only a few others of whom debilitating
substance abuse could even be reasonably suspected.

And I'm pretty sure that investment banking wasn't all that much worse.

------
ratsmack
Many people work long grueling shifts in stressful positions for years and
don't see the need to binge on alcohol and cocaine to manage. I feel sorry for
anyone that dies, but I see this as a situation where this person suffers from
symptoms of a weak character and/or mental issues.

------
saintfiends
Hard work is important and it is the only effective and reliable way to be
successful. This does not mean all nighters or alcohol-cocaine binges should
be the norm, it must be the rare exception.

End of the day it's-just-not-worth-it over everything else.

If you think it is the norm or encourage such behavior, you're selfish, you're
what is wrong with the society.

------
cryoshon
Meh.

I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire
existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if
you've got no time or people to enjoy it with? I think that these kind of
aberrant/nauseating/maladapted pathological behaviors (working insane hours,
money addiction) show a bewildering lack of wisdom that is intentionally
selected for among the "most competitive" firms. They can't make a robot or
computer program that completely replaces these people's ability to convert
life into money, yet a robot is exactly what they need, and so they find folks
who are willing to be that robot and dehumanize themselves.

There's always a lot of hubbub regarding Ivy league types landing in Goldman-
esque shops then dying of overwork etc, and I think it's telling. Jumping
through the hoops despite increasingly unreasonable demands is stereotypical
behavior from these people, and it's very much to their detriment, as well as
ours. Spinelessness has consequences. These are the people that society views
as the elite, yet they're childish in their inability to reality-check the
limits of their own lives, which results in poor mental health and suicide or
drug abuse.

I can't muster empathy here. They worked hard for their chance to play brutal
games, and then got brutalized as a result.

~~~
mattzito
You can think this through a few ways. One is that they see finance jobs as
desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job,
get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all
the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a
failure?

Another is that they really do think it gets better. If they can just make it
through the first four or five years, they can go from 80 to 50 hours, and
then if they get to MD, they can get down to 40-50. In the meantime, they're
making great money, they can enjoy what exists of their personal lives, _if
they just get past that first couple years_.

Characterizing these folks as "spineless" is perhaps accurate for some, but in
the end, reductionist. A better conversation to have would be to ask:

\- Are the same number (proportionally) of people committing suicide in
finance today the same as 15 years ago?

\- If not, why today? What's different about today?

\- What's to be done about it?

~~~
graeme
>One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives
up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do
you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your
achievements and tell them you're a failure?

Is it a surprise to those on that career path? I work with people applying to
law school, and it's widely known that major firm jobs demand an incredible
amount of your time.

I think people might, mistakenly, expect "I can handle it, I like a
challenge", but the gist of what a job at biglaw requires is pretty well
known.

I'd be surprised if finance is different.

I agree spineless isn't the word, though. Motivations for entering that type
of job are simply very different from what motivates people who wouldn't even
consider it. I can't say exactly what it is, because I'm very far from that
type. But the people I know on that path (in law) certainly are quite able to
stand up for themselves. They're very confident, capable people.

~~~
pdglenn
As someone who knows many who went into this field, some who burned out and
some who didn't, it's one thing to describe the challenge of 100 hour weeks,
and another to live it.

Biglaw is similar, but the gulf from 80 hours to 100 hours is very large.

~~~
graeme
I meant to imply that, but I guess I wasn't clear enough.

I hadn't realized 100 hours was the norm though. That _is_ a significant
increase over 80.

------
greatthanks
Live by greed, die by greed.

------
curiousjorge
commenting on this quote from the article: "‘I’m 29. This is what you do when
you’re 29"

I don't know what the fuck is it with this wall street culture. I find SV
culture banal and disgusting but no where close to the shit show that is the
wall street glamorized by movies and tv shows.

I would've done the same and I have done the same when I was 25. Working like
crazy. You realize one day, this is bullshit. Everyone in this shitty place is
fucking bullshit. A check at the end of the fucking month that translates into
a measely minimum wage if you count the long hours and the office male bravado
bullshit. High school never ends.

It's only after I was chewed and spit out, I realized, no amount of glamor or
prestige is worth chasing if there's no chance at MY happiness and MY health.

This make it till you are 30 mentality bullshit has got to go. The anxiety it
gives a person in early to mid 20s to feel like you need to keep moving to
feel like you are moving closer to success.

Lot of young men like ourselves are conditioned to believe that giving up a
decade of our youth to live like kings and gods the rest of our lives is a
pretty seductive thought, no matter how unlikely the chances, society almost
expects young men to behave and perform like robots, showing no emotion, just
take it and bring home the bacon.

These days, I'm a bit older and beginning to think, good things, like all
other things, take time. This kamikaze rags to riches type of mentality we see
in movies, doesn't seem to work very well (you burn out quickly).

This quote from Frank Lopez in Scarface rings true here.

"Hey, Tony. Remember when I told you when you first started working for me,
the guys that last in this business, are the guys who fly straight. Low-key,
quiet. But the guys who want it all, chicas, champagne, flash... they don't
last. "

Don't think I want to be part of any work culture where shitty cocaine mixed
in some shithole in colombia and commiting adultery with overpriced hookers
with plastic boobs .

