

Evidence Points To Conscious 'Metacognition' In Some Nonhuman Animals - limist
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090914172644.htm

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fnid
It really astounds me, the arrogance with which people talk about animals not
being conscious. How can they pretend to know what is in the mind of those
animals? We _can_ communicate with them. Maybe not as completely as we'd like,
but they do get sad and happy.

Anytime someone says something about how stupid animals are, I just think
_they_ are stupid because they aren't even able to differentiate between what
we _know_ and what we _don't_ know.

If you can't admit _I don't know_ , then you really need to check yourself.

~~~
a-priori
I agree. There is a grey area between what is known, scientifically, to be
true, and what is known to be false. Much of animal cognition falls into this
grey area, and it will likely remain there for the foreseeable future. Hell,
it's an assumption I make that _other humans_ experience the world the same
way I do.

My theory, which is based on what I know about neuroscience but is
unscientific, is that all animals with a neocortex (that is, all mammals)
experience the world much as we do. Bear in mind that our awareness of the
world is constructed within the brain, and is therefore only as detailed as
our current mental faculties allow (even though you may not realize this).

The flip side of my theory is that those lacking a neocortex (non-mammals
vertebrates such as reptiles, fish, insects, etc., as well as invertebrates)
do not have a similar experience, which I think is also true.

~~~
fnid
You said, "Bear in mind"... I chuckled.

But seriously, I think there is a range of cognitive ability. Some animals and
perhaps fish or reptiles, living or dead, or birds even, are smarter than
others, this is probably true, or at least appears to be true from
observation.

However, the big problem to me is that people think somehow humans are
distinct and unique and _above_ aaall other life forms. That consciousness
begins and ends in homo sapiens.

But, like you alluded to, even within humans, there is a vast range of
conscious capabilities.

~~~
giardini
fnid says: "the big problem to me is that people think somehow humans are
distinct and unique {and _above_ all other life forms). That consciousness
begins and ends in homo sapiens."

But except for the part I bracketed, the above is pretty much true. There is
little evidence of self-awareness in other animals and certainly nothing like
what humans display. Along with that, our language ability is unique (Sure I
know about signing apes, dolphins, African parrots, et al, wherein minimal
language abilities are present).

No doubt that animals have emotions. But consciousness? No. Animals other than
man live in the "here and now". Other than following genetically-programmed
patterns, they neither plan for the future nor reminisce about the past as we
do. And that is just fine: that's all they apparently need.

Some unique situation (I have no idea what ) must have occurred in man's
history for the ability to think outside of the "here and now" to develop.

About the bracketed part: I would omit it because I don't think that there is
any design where man has any inherently "higher" role/purpose/goal than other
animals.

~~~
TrevorJ
The language examples you gave deal with communicating with _us_. Animals have
been shown to communicate with each other as well, and we don't yet know how
complex those communications may be.

Also, apes do exhibit evidence of a concept of 'self'.

~~~
giardini
Animal communications is limited to survival calls(warning cries), mating and
social signals(which include status signals).

Ape communication is very much "here and now", especially the signing apes:
"Mary want banana, Mary want banana, banana, banana, give Mary banana..." etc.

Apes do have some sense of self, but it is far from human consciousness.

~~~
TrevorJ
I would disagree regarding the great apes. You are correct, it may be far from
Human. We are in agreement there, however great apes have shown evidence of
planning, remorse and anger that goes beyond the here and now.

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xexers
If animals were discovered to be nearly as intelligent as humans, would it
still be ethical to eat them?

Farmers often talk about how stupid chickens are and they, therefore, have no
problems eating them. But yet pigs are smarter than most dogs and we eat lots
of pigs (but almost no dogs). Where does the line get drawn?

~~~
jrmurad
This seems to be common knowledge about pigs. What makes them smart? I've
spent a lot of time with pet dogs and maybe an hour with pigs (livestock, not
pets) on my Aunt's farm. I saw no evidence that pigs have intelligence or
personalities like dogs. What should I have been looking for?

~~~
shellerik
In my experience pigs are easier to train than dogs (they learn more quickly)
and are less easily distracted. I trained pigs for 4-H and showed them at the
county fair. I could walk a pig around with just a cane to tap it and keep it
going the way I wanted. Bringing my dog to the fair would likely take all of
my strength trying to hold the leash. Dogs require acclimation to novel
stimulating situations or they forget their training. Pigs don't seem to care.

The interesting thing to me was that if we forgot to feed them they would
always seem to be able to take apart the fence and get out to eat. The
patriarch got out and visited the other pens before he passed away which
reinforced my feeling that they treated each other like family.

Read the first google hit for pig intelligence if I haven't already gone on
too long on the subject.

------
limist
The fact that there remains a controversy over even the _possibility_ of at
least some animals having some form of consciousness, indicates how the
evolutionary world-view still has ground to gain over the Judeo-Christian
religious world-view.

Put another way, I'd wager that most users of this site are familiar with
Darwin's theory of evolution via natural selection. And if one accepted the
basics of that theory, one would have to accept the possibility of animal
consciousness, or take on the nearly untenable position that human
consciousness sprang into existence from seemingly nowhere...

