
A Thai national park is mailing trash back to tourists - happy-go-lucky
https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2020/09/18/tourist-trash-mail/
======
yesbabyyes
There is a nature reserve close to where I grew up in the Stockholm
archipelago, Björnö (Bear Island). A beautiful place:
[https://archipelagofoundation.se/area/bjorno/](https://archipelagofoundation.se/area/bjorno/)

After one Midsummer some years ago, one of the rangers found a bunch of
garbage laying around after some careless people's celebration. Among the beer
cans, bags, leftovers and other litter, he found someone's name and number;
I'm pretty sure one of them had literally left their business card. He
proceeded to gather all of the trash in a garbage bag, looked the guy up,
drove into Stockholm (some 40 km), rang the fool's door and handed over the
trash while saying something like "Hey, I think you forgot some of your
belongings!"

Edit: just found out from the Archipelago Foundation's Instagram that today is
the international clean the coasts day!

[https://instagram.com/skargardsstiftelsen](https://instagram.com/skargardsstiftelsen)

~~~
NullPrefix
>I'm pretty sure one of them had literally left their business card

Business cards aren't free to make, you make them with intent to give them out
to people.

More plausible scenario was that someone who had received the card just threw
it away.

~~~
yesbabyyes
You find that out pretty soon when you see the guy in the eyes. If the
recipient of the belongings hadn't accepted them as his, the story would never
have been told.

~~~
jrootabega
People will gladly retell and embellish stories that never once happened just
to hear themselves talk

~~~
yesbabyyes
Right... I know the rangers so I can just ask them to verify. Thing is, I
won't bother for 'NullPrefix describing themselves as "pure cynicism", so I
guess it is what it is!

The important thing is that the trash was removed, after all.

~~~
NullPrefix
Right... Ad hominen is the purest form of agreeing with a point made by
someone else without having to say that you agree :)

~~~
yesbabyyes
:) listen, your point is valid, I agree with that. However, I know and trust
the people I'm talking about, whereas you don't know and have no reason to
trust me in particular. Especially since you are quite forthcoming with your
cynicism, there's no point in me claiming to have verification for the
anecdote. I have no problem with that.

'jrootabega on the other hand straight up accuses me of lying to seem
interesting and score internet points, which I think is pretty lousy.

Meanwhile, the trash is gone and everybody's happy! Now I'm going out to kill
a couple of roosters with my uncle.

~~~
jrootabega
I think you're overreacting and the misunderstanding and distortion is growing
with every post in this thread. Which was basically my first comment. I'm not
looking to attack or argue with anyone, never was, and hope everybody has a
good day

~~~
yesbabyyes
Awesome, I agree! Wish you the same. Everybody wins. :)

Well except for those roosters, they're in bird heaven now.

I got curious about your nick by the way, does it refer to rutabaga?

~~~
NullPrefix
cheers, all around :D

------
mulmen
In a previous life I was a truck driver and mechanic on a farm. It was common
for people to leave a mess in the driveway to our field. Often it was just
garbage. One time someone left a bag of deer guts. Another time someone shot
their dog and left the body. Needless to say I have low tolerance for
litterbugs.

But once someone left their old mail. With their address. The sheriff was
happy to give the offender a call and request that they clean up the mess, or
else.

I fully support this kind of operation.

~~~
ramy_d
wow you really expanded my definition of "litterbug" right there

~~~
srtjstjsj
litterdeer and litterdog :-( "dog litter" is already meaning something else.

------
VladimirGolovin
Also, "the government will take strict measures to blacklist visitors who
damage national parks or are noisy and disruptive."

I fully support this policy, and I hope it gets implemented in more parks
around the world.

~~~
npongratz
Do those "strict measures" include a full and fair trial, to allow the accused
to defend themselves, to confront their accuser, and examine the available
evidence that was gathered against the accused? Is there a jury of one's peers
involved? A dispassionate judge of high integrity overseeing and perhaps
rendering judgment?

If any of those things are missing, it seems like it would be easy and cheap
to disenfranchise any person, regardless of actual guilt.

For what it's worth, I very much despise anyone who litters or damages parks,
and hope they are caught and punished properly.

~~~
ido
The jury is mostly an American thing, most other countries don't have that -
the judge decides who is guilty.

~~~
Symbiote
Juries are an _English_ thing, from the 12th Century. Countries whose legal
systems developed from England's are likely to have inherited them.

~~~
kwhitefoot
We had juries here in Norway too until 2017. I'm moderately sure that Norway
did not inherit the idea from England. Also Denmark had them until recently
and Belgium and Austria still have them.

So it is not just an English thing.

~~~
conception
They did -
[https://www.britannica.com/topic/jury](https://www.britannica.com/topic/jury)

[https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scandinavian-
law#ref469034](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scandinavian-law#ref469034)

Well.. they got it from Germany and France who got it from England.

~~~
kwhitefoot
Interesting, thanks.

------
Lio
This is great.

I think I’ve heard the suggestion before that drive throughs should be forced
by law to print the license plate details on all packaging so that it can be
traced back to the driver who left it.

~~~
npongratz
My experience is that 1/3 of the time they fail to get my order right. It is
clear that attention to detail is not the highest priority of hiring managers
at restaurants. So what happens when my PII gets plastered on someone else's
eventual litter? Contesting fines is not an option -- is too often a losing
proposition.

~~~
Lio
I would assume it would be printed via ANPR and then I’d guess the onus is on
you to check everything you’ve ordered is correctly present and labelled.

If that’s not enough and the retailer can’t get that right I would say that
you’re taking a know risk going to that drive through.

Avoid them and I the market will make the process reliable.

~~~
npongratz
I would be depending on _someone else_ to check that everything _they_ have
ordered is correctly labeled. That's the problem. If I cannot trust the people
whom I pay to correctly pack my meal, I certainly cannot trust some rando in
the drive-through queue to read a faded and smudged label, _and_ care about
what they just read, _and_ spend time and emotional energy to rectify the
problem (which isn't even their problem).

------
yodsanklai
I really don't understand how people can be so careless and disrespectful,
even more so in a national park (and even more so in a foreign country). They
flew across the world and visited a national park because they appreciate the
nature, so why spoil it. What goes wrong in their head?

~~~
unnameduser1
Yodsanklai you might not have all the facts. Nobody flew across the world.

The offender is a Thai person, that’s why the garbage was deliverable by
postal mail. Doubt that the national park would pay for international mail.
Their budgets are very tight. Also foreigners are not asked for their home
address. The ranger just noted down the ID card number of the person who
rented the tent.

Furthermore the entry to Thailand is very restricted and NO foreign tourists
are yet allowed to enter. So no it wasn’t a foreign tourist.

Anyway majority of tourists in Thai national parks are Thai nationals.
Considering that they charge foreigners 5-12x more for entry it isn’t a
surprise.

Please don’t state details that weren’t part of original article. In this case
it strengthens xenophobia.

Edit: typo and corrected addressing the commenter above

~~~
yodsanklai
Indeed, I didn't read the paywalled article, wrongly assuming that "tourist"
meant foreign tourist, and generalizing personal experience with some foreign
tourists in Thailand (unrelated with this article content).

That being said, tourists visiting national park such as Kao Yai are better
behaved than in some beach locations. Also Kao Yai entry fee is about $15,
which is affordable for foreigners (who are plenty there in regular times).

~~~
unnameduser1
Yodsanklai, again you assume things.

A Thai person pays entrance fee of 40 THB (1.29 USD). This is regardless if
they are poor or rich, if they pay income tax or not.

A foreigner who for example lives in Thailand, and who pays income tax, still
has to pay 400 THB (12.9 USD) entrance fee. That’s 10x more. Pure
discrimination.

Let’s say an average foreigner family of 4 (2parents, 2children). That’s 2x
400 THB and 2x 200 THB incl vehicle 50 THB. 1250 THB.

A rich Thai family of 4, pays 2x40 THB, 2x 20 THB and 50 for vehicle. Total
170 THB.

You don’t decide what’s affordable for foreigners or not.

Not every foreigner is rich. Lots of expenses are higher for foreigners, many
venues and restaurants charge higher prices to foreigners. Rental is often
higher for foreigners,...

Not all foreign tourists are rich either. Many save the whole year to afford a
two weeks trip to Thailand with their family.

National parks that charge them 10x more, restaurants that charge 2x more etc
aren’t helping with welcoming foreigners.

If you do feel that paying 10x more is justified because it’s little money to
you, why not sponsor not so well off foreigner families who wish to visit Thai
national parks.

~~~
yodsanklai
Really, this is Thailand business how they determine the fees of their
national parks. These parks aren't free to maintain and they don't have an
obligation to set up a price considered affordable to all the tourists in the
world.

A lot of Thai people are poor, _much_ poorer than the tourists who visit their
country. I'm glad if they can have access to their national park.

I agree it's not the most fair situation for expats living in Thailand with
Thai wages, but it's the compromise they have found, and I don't think there
is a big scandal here.

Thailand is a very welcoming country for foreigners, and really I think they
tolerate a lot of crap from tourists.

~~~
unnameduser1
I will repeat. Most of visitors to Thai national parks, vast majority of them
are Thai citizens.

The Thai government has increased prices for Thai citizens and reduced price
for foreigners for exactly that reason at Doi Inthanon. And also because
foreigners dont appreciate being ripped off.

There is huge online movement against dual pricing of foreigners in Thailand.
You might not have heard about it.

Yes its precisely Thailands business. Thailands tourism industry revenue comes
2/3rds from foreign visitors. A discriminatory surcharge harms the tourism
industry, and other countries in SEA proved that by making such practices
illegal.

Thai people aren’t charged double or 10x more to enter national parks in other
countries just becuase they are Asian :) its illegal there, its called
discrimination.

Filipino and Malay people get Thai price at national parks in Thailns, because
they look similar to Thais. So its then racism if caucasians get charged 10x
more.

Would you think it fair if foreign operated business in Thailand charge their
Thai customers 2-10x as much as foreign customers? It would be a big scandal
if they did.

Overcharging foreigners is also a big scandal. Check social media. Its being
reported on a daily basis and its bad for reputation of Thailand. Tourism
Authority of Thailand thinks its not fair to charge foreigners more.

Not sure why you think discrimination is ok.

A fair equal price would bring more visitors :) im sure of that.

On a trip to a national park nearby my Thai friends were shocked that i would
get charged 10x as much. Each of them gave extra money to pay for my ticket.
Not because I couldnt afford it. But because its discrimination.

Since then we visit national parks less often. Not because we cant afford it.
But because it feels bad to be discriminated against. It ruins the experience
at such places. There are lots of other beautiful places to explore in
Thailand, for free, with good Thai friends.

Edit: just to add, now that Thailand does not allow foreign tourists entering
the country due to Covid, relying on tourism by expats living here has become
much more important. The revenue generated by Thai tourists traveling to other
parts of the country has brought occupancy in hotels just to 10%. Thats not
counting those hotels/guesthouses/restaurants that already closed forever.

Edit2: embarrassing typos

~~~
yodsanklai
> Not sure why you think discrimination is ok.

I'm not saying it's great and perfect. But I get where they're coming from and
I'm not shocked.

I've spent quite some time in Thailand and I've seen the amount of poverty
there. A lot of Thais work very hard for barely nothing, and they don't have
the social nets we have in developed countries. With that in mind, I can
understand Thai citizens have different rights than foreigners when accessing
public goods. It's no big deal to pay $15 (cheap by western standard). And if
it's cheaper for Thai people who can't afford it, I'm more than happy to help,
considering I'm lucky being born in a rich country. If it was $15 for
everybody, most Thai people couldn't visit their parks. And I don't know if
they would be able to maintain their parks without that money.

By the way, there is more discrimination coming from developed countries than
the opposite. I had Thai friends who wanted to visit Europe or the US. They
had to apply for visas, which were expensive and sometimes denied with no
reason. It was very stressful and humiliating for them.

~~~
unnameduser1
True, there is powerty in Thailand but the saying goes; everybody gets food to
eat, people share. Not so easy in western countries. Thailand has no snow,
most of time its pretty warm and rice grows all year round :)

Even now in deep financial crisis (no covid within Thailand at the moment)
people get food donations. People who have more created cabinets where poorer
people can pick up food for free. Its not pretty but it works. People donate
to orphanages so children dint starve. Yes. No social net for them either.

Well we cant blame foreigners and their social nets, charging them 10x more
because Thailand hasnt made sufficient social coverage from taxes is still
discrimination.

Most Thai people in Thailand pay no income tax. VAT is 7%. Every foreigner
working in TH must pay income tax - which is fine - they live there. But
foreigners cant finance the social security system alone :)

Lets say some european country charges 20% VAT, and for average worker 35%+
income tax. Not to count higher municipal taxes for water, electricity,
garbage collection. This is what pays for national parks. For social security,
for good education, for better roads. For Thai tourists entering the same
national parks at same price like local residents because anything else would
be discrimination and is illegal. And youre welcome.

As for those Thai people who are very very poor (in Thailand). They usually
dont go to national parks because the transportation and food there would be
too expensive even with the cheaper entrance fees. They go to local forests or
rivers instead. They pick mushrooms, hunt wildlife e.g fish and lizards to
eat. Ive seen this first hand. They hitch a ride fromm their village to
nearest “town” on the back of someones truck as the regular “passenger truck”
is out of their financial reach. Still, overall they have a good life, they
grow some crops or keep animals. They live usually with extended family
closeby, spend time with family and friends and are happy.

The fact that a part of Thai population is poor does not justify
discrimination of foreigners.

Most Thai people at big Thai national parks come with nice cars (which even i
could not afford). If the poorer are lucky to get to a national park, then the
whole family rides huddled on the back of a pickup truck, no safety belts or
seats.

Lol visa discrimination. I do agree that many countries made it harder to
obtain visa. And so has Thailand. Simply because some people all over the
world abuse visa regulations and the good folks suffer because of the changes.

My friend from USA has also to apply for his tourist visa at Thai embassy. And
he has to pay for it too. There are often hurdles for that.

Foreigners are denied visas or visa extensions. Sometimes for silly
buerocratic reasons. And you wouldnt believe how often the reasons change.
Very stressful and humiliating.

Every year, a foreign friend has to extend his business visa. He has
legitimate business, with employees, pays all required salary taxes and
company profit taxes etc. He loves Thailand and has a family. One year, after
waiting for hours in queue at immigration he was told they cant accept his
visa extension application.

Why? Because the revenue department issued official tax payment receipt is not
accepted anymore without a separate additional stamp from revenue department
to make it “official”.

Nobody told him before, so he lost half a day just to have to go back to
revenue department to get a stamp on their officially issued tax receipt which
makes it “more official”.

Then he has to go back to queue at immigration and after hours of waiting,
gets told by officers that this year they require some additional documents.
Nobody told him before. If they accept the application he gets 1 month
extension only while they check his documents and he has to come back before
expiration of that month to receive final approval or rejection of his
application.

What if there is recession? A foreigner orperated company in Thailand must
have 25% profit. Otherwise he cant extend his visa. A payment of profit tax is
required. :) Businesses operated by Thai citizens arent required to make
profit. (That foreigner still has to pay 10x more at national parks, lol)

So every year, he submits his visa extension and if they dont approve it, he
has 7 days to leave the country. What about his Thai wife and children, car he
bought, house they rent, all belongings? He cant afford to fly them overseas
and get visas for them, plus a job for his wife, school for kids etc.

Life overseas is x times more expensive. Just becuase someone has higher
salary overseas than a Thai person in Thailand doesnt mean that they have more
money left at end of month.

At the same time in Thailand, an educated Thai person with some expertise in
their field gets same salary as a foreigner with equal expertise. If not even
more :) companies are reluctant to hire foreigners due to paperwork and
revenue department scrutiny involved. If a small company hires more than 2
foreigners their company income tax doubles. This goes wirh the fact that for
every foreigner hired they must hire 4 Thai employees.

Did i mention that foreigners have to check in every 90 days at immigration to
report that they still live on same adress? (Even if they havent moved in 15
years, sounds a bit ridiculous, right?). If youre late for the 90 days report
thats 2000 baht fine. If you forget and they caught you its jail and 4000
Baht.

Additionally if my friend leaves the country e.g. on a business trip to
Vietnam or to visit parents in home country, upon return to the same house in
Thailand in which he lived for years, he must be reported by landlord within
24h at immigration that he returned to that same house. Never mind the fact
that he entered the country through immigration and had to fill in a form
where he will be staying.

If the landlord doesnt want to go make the report (happens if they didnt
disclose the rent as income), the person who is fined is the foreigner
(2000THB) becuase he is the one who has to have that report paper. Furthermore
without that landlords report, the foreigner cant make the 90 days report or
visa extension etc at immigration. Imagine how humiliating that is.

If the foreigner decides to take vacation within the country, the
guesthouse/hotel has to report him to immigration within 24h. Then after
return home upcountry the landlord must do the same report agin within 24
hours.

By law a foreigner who leaves the registered place of living and stays
overnight somewhere else has to go to nearest immigration or police station
and report himself to be there now, within 48h. Also when he returns to same
registered place of living he has to make same report that he is now back.
Thats besides the fact that the landlord has to make the same report on
different form as outlined above.

There is one worthwile category of foreigners to mention. People from certain
countries have to make a request at local immigration or police station and
apply for permit if they want to travel outside the district. Without that
approval they arent alowed to leave, lol, lets say to visit the national park
in other district of same province. If they get caught without that permit to
travel within country, they face fines and deportation. And humiliation.

This last group of foreigners is often the lowest paid group of people, even
less than Thais. So no not all foriegners can afford your $12.9 to enter
national parks at discriminatory prices.

Now while it may look all bad, i have to say that most foreigners who live in
Thailand are happy to be there and love the country. They just dont like the
discrimination and being ripped off :) if you know what i mean.

------
grishka
One question left unanswered by this article: how do they get the addresses of
the offenders?

~~~
jcrawfordor
The trash seems to have been left in a reserved tent, so presumably they had a
mailing address on file with the reservation.

~~~
unnameduser1
They wrote down the ID during checkin. Standard procedure.

------
DenisM
I am tempted to buy a few solar trail cams and place them in my favorite
spots. I’d even pay for it, but I can’t quite imagine the enforcement process
- I’m not there anywhere often enough, and the sheriff deputies are but they
probably wouldn’t be willing to access my cameras.

There are even several groups in the northwest whose members would likely join
me in that. But how do we make this work?

------
MichaelZuo
Litter is definitely a collective action, tragedy of the commons, sort of
thing. Tangentially, one of the few positives of universal surveillance might
be the reduction of littering through penalization.

Attaching any, material, negative incentive to littering is quite hard to do
and I’m sure society will greatly benefit from any solid ideas as to how.

~~~
enaaem
The Singaporean way is to give massive fines and it worked.

~~~
MichaelZuo
Right, so a societal paradigm shift to the Singaporean model works. It really
doesn’t seem like an issue that can be solved in isolation, the rest of
society has to change too.

------
INTPenis
Me and the camping partners I've had have always had a policy; bring more
trash from nature than you brought there.

So we sometimes take strolls before packing up just to find some trash. Sadly
we almost always do. Sometimes people just dump entire bags of trash on a
hill, like wtf did they expect to happen with that? So short sighted.

~~~
c22
On many occasions I have found bagged dog crap just sitting on the side of the
trail. It's amazing to me that there are people with the forsight to carry
around plastic bags and the will to bend over, fill them with shit and tie
them closed, but then no further will to take it away with them. I often wish
they hadn't put the crap in a bag because then I would not be compelled to
remove it from the trail.

------
wraptile
I've been living in North Thailand for almost 3 years now and littering is
still weird here for me. You'd go to the this pristine clean temple where
everyone is barefeet and it's so cosy welcoming there then you go back to the
parking lot that has a mountain of trash just rolling down hill.

The tourist blame is a bit silly too as foreigners are often charged 10 times
the price for entering national parks (1$ for thai, 10$ for a foreigner) to
the point where whole #2pricethailand movement started. For this entry fee a
whole platoon of park maintainers could be hired but I've never seen more than
3 people present even in big parks and the trash cans are often missing or
badly maintained, so it seems money is definitely being pocketed at some
stage.

Generally tourists that go to these parks are quite tidy here and this
headline seems like a click-bait.

~~~
unnameduser1
The tourists were Thai. Yes the 10x overcharge is discriminatory.

Many tourists post online that the 10x price is not worth the visit. As you
say there are sometimes issues with maintenance etc.

Most of tourists are Thai. We do find sometimes families throwing out trash on
side of road.

------
actionowl
I love this, but wonder if the cost of shipping is worth the impact... I hope
so!

Also, if you ever visit Khao Yai I can't recommend "The Frog Resort" enough.
What an awesome place to stay and a beautiful park.

~~~
unnameduser1
They might have included a bill for the violation :)

------
Proven
I'd rather have private "national" parks which deal with trashy tourists
without spending more taxpayer money.

A nice way a private owner could address this problem would be to ask each
visitors to buy admission ticket _and_ issue a surety bond that could be
claimed within 30 days to pay for any damages.

~~~
vladvasiliu
Why would this only work for a private owner?

~~~
nix23
Because National Parks are the biggest tax-problem in the US? Irony off...

------
intrasight
Alice's Restaurant :)

