

Ask HN: Former freelance client screwed me. Having trouble moving on. Advice? - adtruth

The short story:<p>I took on a freelance client four years ago who weaseled his way out of final payment. Since it was early in my career, I could not afford legal recourse and did not want to expose the drama to my future clients.<p>He ended up using the project to get a job as an investor, and eventually used that to raise a seed round to build a company that will supposedly give accounting and financial support to freelancers.<p>Fast forward to today, I&#x27;m doing great and don&#x27;t need the money, but my pride is preventing me from moving on mentally. I also have no doubt he&#x27;ll use his scummy tactics on others in the future and it honestly bothers me that he continues to be successful despite his behavior. I have met with others who have had similar experiences.<p>What would you do in my situation? Reconsider legal action? Public shaming? Simply move on and chalk it up as a life experience?<p>Here&#x27;s the long story: http:&#x2F;&#x2F;pastebin.com&#x2F;4LB8e265<p>Thanks in advance.
======
patio11
A company owes you money. The usual way to get it from them is to send them an
invoice (or other written formal demand for money). There exist interesting
hypothetical questions as to what happens after you send them an invoice if
they refuse to pay it. A very highly probable outcome, though, is that two
months from now you get a very thin envelope in the mail with a check in it.

Supposing you don't get the check and need to ask interesting hypothetical
questions: these questions can be answered by a profession of specialized
letter writers, at least one of whom practices in your town. Given copies of
your emails they can write all of the letters required to get you a high-four
figure check. It will likely run you low three figures to low four figures.
Don't think of them like your representatives in a stressful court case,
because it is 99.54% likely that there will be no court case -- think of them
as highly trained specialists in letter writing, with high tolerances for both
stress and tedium, who happily sell letters to almost anyone who asks for one.

Send the invoice. This has been equally true for 48 of the last 48 months.

Separately: the tech industry has an unsavory individual in it. Bad news: the
world is lousy with them. This particular one is distinguished in your memory
mostly because he had bad dealings with you. If your goal is decreasing the
amount of unsavory business dealings in the world, you'll be far more
effective by making it a point from now until your dying day to always tell
young freelancers "ALWAYS GET A CONTRACT" rather than spending an iota of
mental energy on this guy.

~~~
adtruth
Thanks for your input. I did send an invoice four years ago, but he ignored
it. Another complicating factor is that the project (and company) is long
dead.

My next step, as many have suggested as well, is likely to consult a
professional of specialized letter writers.

> [make] it a point from now until your dying day to always tell young
> freelancers "ALWAYS GET A CONTRACT"

Definitely. I have been doing this ever since.

~~~
patio11
Resend a demand for payment. The possible answers include "A check." and "A
universe of other responses, any of which you can get checked by a letter-
writer." For example, "X Corp owes you money. I don't." is entirely possible.
It is an _incredible step forward_ over where you are today.

------
DanBC
Allow yourself some time -less than an hour- to examine your thougts and
emotions.

These examples might not be applicable to you!

"I was conned", which is causing "I feel humiliation and anger" and the
evidence "he ripped me off and then made a load of money". Try to give a rough
rating to the intesity. "I feel this strongly" or "this feels like a 3 out of
5".

Then start thinking about other evidence. "I could have retaliated, but I
haven't. That's because I am honorable and have integrity." Or "it really
sucked at the time, and it still sucks a bit, but I did learn from the
experience and I am a better business person because of it."

The aim with the new evidence is not to remove the sting but to reduce it a
bit, to reduce the intensity of the feelings. It's iterative.

This is a structured method to help control intrusive thoughts. If I tell you
not to think of an elephant you're probably going to picture an elephant, so
not thinking about stuff isn't always as straightforward as just pushing it
out of your mind.

~~~
MisterWebz
So the correct response to someone ripping you off is using mental tricks to
convince yourself you're better off than before?

~~~
rday
I would agree that it is the correct response. It sounds stupid to just let
people get one over on you, sure. But every freelancer (that I know of) has
been screwed by a client at some point.

Since it happens to everyone, the interesting part of the story becomes how
you handled it. Not that it happened.

------
clarkevans
The professional delegation of this issue to a Lawyer can be your closure.
This is when your emotional anguish ends -- after that, it's no longer
personal. Sure, you'll pay $600-$900 for the consultation plus a % contingency
fee, and one hour to explain the issue. However, the moment you hand it over
to your council, it's _settled_.

The Lawyer will draft the invoice reminder, and a scary advisory that it's a
bad idea to build a business upon stolen intellectual property and know-how.
They will follow up directly with the CFO of the organization, professional to
professional. It might cause the CFO to have a meeting to discuss the risks of
not paying. The lawyer may decide to play a short or a long game. They may
decide that it's simply not worth it to pursue further. In any case, once it's
delegated, it's their professional opinion, and you accept it.

In this way, you've done what you can, and you've moved on with your life. If
you get a check in the mail a few months (or years) later, great. If the
concern about a check arriving in the future causes you anxiety, this one is
also easy to solve, tell your attorney that the beneficiary of any money
extracted is the local food bank. Then it's closed. You move on.

~~~
adtruth
Thanks. I'm starting to feel like, as you mention, I need to at least go
through the legal motions to feel like I've done everything I can.

------
pvnick
I am so sorry that you were screwed like that. It sucks, but look at it this
way: you learned a valuable lesson that likely helped you in your career, and
the other guy has to sleep at night with the knowledge of the people he
screwed weighing on his conscience. At this point your negative feelings are
hurting only yourself, not him. You may even find it helpful to push yourself
to forgive him for his misdeed - he did it from a place of insecurity and
weakness, and finding it in yourself to forgive him comes from a place of
courage and strength. Resentment is poisonous, and in my time on earth I have
found that revenge offers no comfort, but that healing comes only from
forgiveness.

------
Red_Tarsius
I'm a very vengeful guy. If you have wronged me years ago I'd still bear
grudges and find serious ways to give back. It's my weakness and it's not
healthy. You should let it go. Think about it: how much time and money would
you waste in a legal action? Is it worth the stress and commitment? It's not.

IMHO don't feed the mob with public shaming. It's a scar, not an open wound
and you should simply warn other freelancers from joining his company. It's
the difference between being unprofessional and acting as a good mentor.

> I foolishly did not draft a formal contract -- a mistake I never made
> again...

This is a lesson every freelancer I met learns the hard way.

~~~
throwaway22mar
while I don't believe it's related to OP anymore (see my other reply to him) i
wanted to highlight that your comment shows an amazing level of self-
reflection.

("I'm a very vengeful guy"). Would you say you're a psychopath? [EDIT: this is
an honest question out of curiosity, not an accusation.]

What about other people - do you think hey hold grudges for years against you,
too? Wouldn't it suck if something bad that serious happened to you, a major
setback, but it was because of some guy you have never thought about thought
he was "givign back" something against some way he thought you wronged him
years ago? Even though you did not in fact have this intention?

What I'm saying is that I know basically no one who just does things out of
spite. So if you feel that you were personally wronged, don't you think you
could be misinterpreting, and doling out punishment against people who haven't
thought about you since (or have any reason to) but who's next interaction
with you is a shit sandwich for no reason?

Just curious here.

~~~
Red_Tarsius
I'm NOT a psychopath, I think that honest writing makes for more informative
posts, while showing empathy and common ground for the OP.

You highlight one of the most famous cautionary tales: the _Chain of Revenge_.
You're right and, as I suggested, OP should let it go. Although a grudge, no
matter how small, is not something you just shake off from you. Rational
thinking can only take you that far, the real deal is to forgive, which takes
time and willpower.

------
carrotleads
You should let it go and the only way to let it go is to forgive him from the
bottom of your heart.. not a lip service "I forgive you" statement on WWW or
even to him directly...

Its a statement you tell yourself and he will feel it in your face/behaviour
when you interact next...

I said forgive and not forget... you can always learn from the experience and
make needed changes. one of the lessons may be that he is untrustworthy and so
don't trust him with anything until you have reason to consider otherwise..

PS : I have been led to believe that email comms can be treated as contract,
so check it out with legals..

------
up_and_up
Maybe try something like: [http://olddebts.com/](http://olddebts.com/)

You have the date of the last invoice no? With something like Old Debts it
will at least hit their credit rating if they don't pay up. I recently had
success with this and got money out of a client.

That unpaid balance will follow them for a long time and they will have to
resolve the issue with you.

Beyond getting your money back I wouldnt take revenge by going negative
publicly and creating drama.

------
HarrietJones
You have an email from them saying that the final 2/3 payment is contingent on
them getting funcding, and they got funding?

Resend the bill for the remainder. Give them 90 days. If they don't pay, sell
the debt or take it legal.

~~~
adtruth
Sorry, I should have been clearer.

Four years ago I worked with him on Project A. Project A never got funded and
died after our dispute. The 2/3 email relates to Project A.

However, while Project A was in progress, he presented it as his own work to
land himself a job as an investor, and then used that to land himself a seed
round for a tangentially related but materially different Project B years
later.

I make no claims for the funding he received from Project B -- it's just
bothersome that he earned it off of my back (to a degree).

~~~
throwaway22mar
dude. this new comment clears up a LOT.

based on this you are 100% suffering from sour grapes, because whereas HE was
able to "present project A" in a certain light to get a totally separate gig
and build a totally separate business, you yourself do not have adtruth_b that
you were able to pitch to investors by mischaracterizing the success of
Project A as a big success, and getting your own seed round for a tangentally
related but materially different business.

you're just jealous that he is smoother than you!!

~~~
yetanotheracc
You did not read the long story, or you lack the ability to understand the
written word, or both.

~~~
throwaway22mar
you are right, I didn't read the long story, just the comments I replied to.

but if he had gotten the 2/3 payment it would have been long-since spent by
now. his problem specifically seems to be that the guy,

>However, while Project A was in progress, he presented it as his own work to
land himself a job as an investor, and then used that to land himself a seed
round for a tangentially related but materially different Project B years
later.

>I make no claims for the funding he received from Project B -- it's just
bothersome that he earned it off of my back (to a degree).

It simply sounds like sour grapes. This is in the longer version too:

>Shortly after, the client presented the site I had built in job and business
school interviews and on his LinkedIn profile. He landed himself a job at an
investment firm working as an advisor for startups, worked there for a few
years, and managed to land himself a seed round as CEO of a company that --
get this -- provides business and accounting support for startups.

>Now, four years later, I am more established and quite satisfied with my
career. I can afford legal representation. But I am having trouble letting
this go. I think about it often. The money isn't the issue -- it's a matter of
pride. This guy used me for his own financial benefit, lied to me, and is now
starting a business purportedly to help freelancers.

A central theme by OP is that the guy "used him". But OP could have also "used
project A" to land OP_project_B and seed funding for it. it's just that he
didn't.

honestly, this seriously comes off as sour grapes given the extra information
I've now read.

------
rday
The good news is you are in great company! We all get conned at some point.
Some of us (me) multiple times. You're paying for your education, whether you
are in school or not. Just make sure you get good use out of your experience
in the future.

> continues to be successful despite his behavior

I'd argue the use of the word "despite".

------
monicazmf
You cannot control what comes your way (and in all honesty, being a freelancer
myself, I totally feel where you're coming from with this bad experience), but
you can surely learn to maximise your reaction to it. I lost any rights I had
for a startup I built, managed and worked my a## for, for the past 3 years, so
I know what loss is. But regardless of the situation, you have to remember
that moving on is the key and the only way to do that is to let go of what you
cannot change. The simplest way to understand "why?" is to think of it like
this: if you keep wasting time and consuming your energy with negative
thoughts, instead of focusing on what is good and productive for your own
sake, just to try and shake the ground of the guy's feet, all you'll end up
doing is giving him an extra hand in stopping you from your tracks. Don't let
him do that, own your thoughts and actions and direct them towards the only
thing that really matters: your own progress and evolution. And don't worry
about it: there is a universal balance in place, and it has nothing to do with
religion or faith, just with the logical assumption that, if you're a person
that screws people to get what they want, eventually, you'll meet someone
smarter than you to screw you for their own good. Knowing that should help you
focus and leave the screwing part for someone out there, whose role in paying
this guy back, hasn't yet been consumed. Yours has. Keep walking!

------
charlesdm
Write it off. One thing I probably would do is send a friendly e-mail to the
investors, explaining the situation. Keep it short, a few sentences max. Given
the situation, offer they pay you a reasonable fee for the problem to go away.
Do you have any evidence supporting your claim?

The fact that there was no formal contract does not mean he legally owns your
IP. E-mails can be valid contracts. Did they rebuild the software or continue
working from what you build?

Problems like these can be major deterrents for future investors/acquirers.

~~~
Red_Tarsius
> Given the situation, offer they pay you a reasonable fee for the problem to
> go away.

I'm afraid the investors would read it as some kind of bribe and the culprit
could sue him for such accusations. He doesn't have a contract to support his
claims, the e-mail would cause more trouble than it's worth it.

~~~
charlesdm
Doesn't he have e-mails to prove his case? Those are often as good as a
written contract.

At the very least, they should know the kind of person who they invested money
in.

In addition, they invested in this company to make money, no? In the event
they are not interested in fixing it now and you have some valid evidence then
you can always sue if they make it big/sell it.

------
fasteo
>> preventing me from moving on mentally

You must absolutely close this forever.

>> don't need the money

Go for the legal action. Don´t think of it as revenge, for it is not. Even if
you end up losing, you definitely win.

~~~
kolleykibber
I'm genuinely curious? Why do you think a loss legally, which could be
financially and mentally extremely challenging, would be a win?

~~~
fasteo
He seems to have a mental blockage with this situation. Some years later and
he still needs to write about it and ask for advice. He is probably taking
this as an excuse for others unrelated things happening in his life (this is
_very_ subjective, but I was in a somehow similar situation years ago)

A legal action is just a way to put a definitive end to all this. The outcome
is not important; he will feel liberated, even if he loses.

------
iterationx
Your physical and mental energy and time is a finite resource. Don't waste it.

------
atlantic
What you could have done from the beginning was to sell on the debt to a debt
collection company. It's something you can still do now, and you will sleep
easy in the knowledge that the collectors will not let the matter rest until
they get their due. Note also that the threat of selling a debt is often much
more effective than that of legal action.

------
cr3ative
> I foolishly did not draft a formal contract

Move on. It is extremely unlikely that legal action will get you anywhere.
It's your word against theirs.

Have you considered that without concrete proof of your claims, they could
initiate legal action against you for slander if they felt like it? "Public
shaming" could be seen as tortious interference.

------
yetanotheracc
Well, move on mentally (you are a better person etc.).

But one might argue that it is your duty not to let it go, for the sake of the
system (i.e. others). How about:

1\. Send the client a non-aggressive email reminding them of the facts and
asking for the payment + interest. Do not make any threats.

2\. Find out (e.g. contact a local lawyer) about the admissibility in court of
emails that you have. You need to prove that the client did actually send
them. Find any other circumstantial evidence (code, phone calls) you have that
argues for the authenticity of those emails.

3\. If it works that way in your jurisdiction, argue that they acted in bad
faith to claim damages.

4\. Likely not doable, but if you can argue that they did not intend to pay
from the beginning, get them accused of fraud.

All that would work where I live overseas, I do not know if it will work where
you live.

------
quipp
Chalk it up to life experience.

You should always have a contract even a simple hand written one is better
than nothing. While you maybe getting screwed over you still, imho, need to
take some personal accountability for not managing your business affairs. At
least enough to the degree that permits you to let it go emotionally.

Also, how much money are we really talking about here? A few months work at
just out of school wages? Seems to me like that's peanuts compared to real
cost it has taken being on your mind over the years.

------
sebastianconcpt
Why do you think that being El Zorro is more important than your next move in
business and family?

Are not you planning to be a better investor and guy to have arround? If so,
have in mind that what you are fantasazing with is going to put your mind in a
mental state of war draining huge ammounts of time and energy that will not be
dedicated to more positive projects.

As investor I would raise many flags if I have you in my fund because I don't
want to fund any personal war for whatever reason it might be declared

~~~
adtruth
This is true. It is a problem that this is taking up so much unwarranted space
in my mind. But that's why I finally wrote about it and am seeking advice.

To play devil's advocate, wouldn't it also be a red flag to have someone in
your fund who simply rolls over and gives up when they have been clearly
wronged?

~~~
sebastianconcpt
You did well in exposing this to other's so you don't get trapped in your own
perception. Hats off to that.

You were wronged, no question about that. What I'm trying to show you is that
you are not in lack of reasons to engage in such a thing. But in the other
hand you have even better reasons not to.

Is not about swallowing it, is about raising you to a higher level were you
not only not need to worry about that anymore but you can be even grateful
that you learned the lessons that experience had teached you.

There are lots of good things waiting for you ahead if you make the space for
them to come. So I'd suggest that life will be better if you don't try to be
Batman and you make room for more positive things.

Following your metaphor, the devil will love to play with you in court but he
cannot be part of your life if you don't give him permission

~~~
sebastianconcpt
I've remembered a technique I've learned somewhere that might be of use to you
these days. This is good for when you are under some kind of pressure to make
a decision that is not exactly peaceful: _when in doubt, don 't act_.

Don't let your emotional drive your decisions.

If you want to go serious in making a decision about this, I'd risk to say
that this is the book your future self would like you to have read now:
[http://heathbrothers.com/books/decisive/](http://heathbrothers.com/books/decisive/)

------
cowpig
In the poker community, nobody ever writes a contract for anything, but people
typically still pay off their debts. One strategy for dealing with outliers
that has shown success is creating a website like this:
[http://www.stevenwareisathief.com/](http://www.stevenwareisathief.com/)
People don't like it when you can google their name to learn about their
misdeeds, and tend to feel their reputations are worth paying off their debts.

------
runarb
Are you located in the us? In many jurisdictions you unfortunately lose your
claim if you do not try to collect it, and continue to try to collect it,
within a certain time. If you have not tried to collect it this past 4 years
this may be a major hurdle in doing so now.

~~~
adtruth
I live in a US state where the deadline to bring breach of contract claims is
six years.

------
hababababalu
I would, at least, publicly expose that guy so other people could find him on
Google before accepting contract. You don't need to provide your real name.

------
level09
Anger/Regret are a plain waste of time, if you no longer need the money, move
on. life is random.

------
thrownaway122
Consult a lawyer.

------
UweSchmidt
Let it go.

------
chesterbr
If you really allow me to be honest (and a bit harsh): you seem to believe to
be entitled with life being a fair game. It isn't. Human nature is very
diversified, and there will be those that won't give a damn to what you
consider to be ethical behavior. I can understand that - it took me some time
to find the balance between protecting myself against ill-intentioned people
while not shutting everyone out.

You seem to worry on the long story with the fact that the "bad guy" is still
on the loose. I'll be honest again: this seems like you're unconsciously
trying to find justification to get even with him - after all, preventing
other from "potentially fall in to his trap" sounds way better than, say, "get
personal justice" \- or (let's face it) "revenge".

Sorry for the hard tone, but I think mellowing the words will lead you to
wasting time, money (and possibly reputation - let's remember how good this
person is on that) on a rotten past which already taught you valuable lessons
that seem to have helped on your career.

Instead, focus on your present and future. Life is short, and you certainly
have people and endeavors that deserve your attention. Move on and have a
great day!

