
Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu - milankragujevic
https://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-begins-showing-an-anti-firefox-ad-in-the-windows-10-start-menu-529137.shtml
======
alxlaz
This, and every other screw-up in the same vein, is why those of us old enough
to remember the Halloween documents don't buy the whole "new Microsoft" thing.

Want to get me to try Edge? Great -- instead of a passive-aggressive ad, try
telling me how it's better than Firefox and why I'd like to use it instead.
What will it get me? Better privacy? Better performance? Better development
tools?

Cynically, it's amazing that Microsoft collects so much personal data about
each user -- and yet its "target" ads are hopelessly generic and tasteless.

Also, leaving the matter of whether or not I should even be seeing ads after I
paid for the damn thing aside, the company that brought us Internet Explorer
is the last one that should crack jokes about other browsers, even if they're
good (which this one isn't).

~~~
iso1631
Over the last couple of years I've been coming round to the fact that
microsoft aren't necessarily a major problem now, compared to google and
amazon at least.

Doesn't take much to put the shields back upto full.

I just don't understand why people run windows. Maybe I just use computers
wrong, having been on linux for the last 20 years, but my family (who I refuse
to help with IT needs) are all far happier on chromebooks than on windows

~~~
alxlaz
> I just don't understand why people run windows.

I've used Linux for about the same time and honestly, I understand it
completely. _I_ would switch, were it not for muscle memory and for the fact
that at least 50% of my work involves systems-level development for Linux
(mainly embedded stuff, so a lot of cross-compiling). In the last five or six
years I've come to dread the Linux desktop and its constant churn of rewrites
and UX "improvements".

I have a Windows machine that I use for work the other half of the time and
honestly... it's great. Yeah, the occasional update breaks some fringe
feature. But the chances of something like waking up to the announcement that
Microsoft is removing desktop icons in the next update and you can just
install this third-party application for it (which _will_ break with every
update) are practically zero.

Microsoft puts out a lot of broken stuff (some of which slowly morphs into
non-broken, useful stuff over time, e.g. Powershell), but you can mostly be
assured that, if something works today, it'll work ten years from now, modulo
some registry hacks. That's incredibly valuable.

I really don't care about things like UI consistency and whatnot -- what I do
care about is stability and functionality.

Edit: tbh, the main reason why I'm not switching _today_ is that I don't
really trust this whole OS-as-a-service model. If it were Windows 2000 instead
of Windows 10, I wouldn't think twice before switching, but these are
different times.

(More edit: please realize that I'm the same person who posted this reply:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22288917](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22288917)
, yeah?)

~~~
smabie
Or you could just use a window manager that doesn’t change? I’ve had the same
desktop env for over a decade and nothing has changed at all. In contrast with
windows and osx where we literally cannot opt out.

~~~
sergiosgc
I entirely understand alxlaz's position, buy my solution was exactly sticking
to better window managers (in terms of long term support). My workstation is
Linux since '98 or '99, and since then I've used GNUstep for about a decade,
then i3 and now sway (basically i3 for Wayland). I'm free from the breaking
changes alxlaz describes.

I just checked, and GNUstep is pretty much alive. Even that change was caused
by me wanting to try tiling window managers, not support failure.

~~~
alxlaz
Ah, I'm in a similar-ish boat, I use WindowMaker :). This isolates me from
most, but definitely not all dubious changes. I've been down the tiling WM
rabbit hole a while ago but it's just not for me, I like the mouse, I like
icons...

It's a little unsettling that there are two ways to get a stable experience:
using window manager from 1998 (OK, ok, WindowMaker is still maintained-ish,
in fact a very tiny portion of the code written after 1998 is mine :-) ), or
getting used to a workflow akin to that of Windows 1.01 (i.e. a tiling WM).

On the bright side, though, yeah, at least we have a choice!

~~~
pushpop
KDE 4 was released in 2008 and has been stable and consistent for more than a
decade. That predates Windows 7. So in the same time KDE has been consistent
you’ve had had the migration from XP or Vista to Win7. Then Windows 8 and now
Windows 10. They’ve all bought massive changes in the UI experience.

If you don’t like KDE then use LXCE or Enlightenment or any of the other Linux
desktop environments that have been pretty static (and have been even longer
than KDE).

So yeah, there actually is a lot of choice on Linux and not all of it looks
dated.

~~~
smegger001
Mate desktop has been fairly stable (the default green tinted icon set is
gross but fixable). I switched to it after Ubuntu long term support, and
Debian on my other computer dropped gnome 2. Just didn't like gnome 3 or
unity. Cinnamon was okay but at the time was still coupled to the brain dead
ideas the gnome team had been perusing at the time. I haven't checked it out
recently enough to know if it had improved.

------
rafiki6
Has anyone here actually looked at the "anti-Firefox" ad in question? It's
literally a tile that says "Still using Firefox? Edge is here!". I'm not
really sure what we expected here. This is about the same as a browser asking
you to make it default when you open it. All big companies do weird anti
competitive things. This isn't one of those things. I know I'll likely get
downvoted for this opinion, but to many commenters here saying things like
"this is why I don't believe in the new Microsoft or that Microsoft has
changed", I'm not entirely sure how some meh ad telling you to switch your
browser counteracts things like SQL Server on Linux or Azure supporting Linux
VMs, or Microsoft's purchase of github, or .net core being cross platform,
etc. I don't generally care to support a large company, nor am I an active
developer or user in the microsoft stack, but the over reaction is a bit
absurd.

Does anyone who uses Firefox realize for a long while they were primarily
funded by having Google pay them to be the default search engine?

~~~
deaps
It's not an overreaction. It's literally a targeted ad showing up in your day
to day work space. It's invasive. I switched to mac a long time ago, but I
still have a Windows device because some things are just painful (or
impossible) to use on a mac.

The difference between using an application that prompts "make this default?"
and a specifically targeted ad showing up on your start menu is that the user
_used_ the application that threw the prompt...That might actually be helpful.

The fact is, if Microsoft wants _me_ to switch to Edge, they need to tell me
the benefits. A chart will do fine comparing it to other common options. I
don't need a targeted ad that proves they know and keep track of what browser
I'm actually using. That's literally ridiculous.

~~~
whywhywhywhy
Apple does the same sort of thing these days, Music.app on my phone keeps
showing me a full screen ad for Apple Music around a month, dismissed it about
5 times now.

~~~
nydel
it's everywhere outside of overtly freedom-concerned software.

the idiots are winning.

~~~
neuronic
Like the (now past) Amazon integration in Ubuntu?

~~~
a1369209993
> freedom-concerned software.

Thank you for giving a example of why we can't use the term "free software"
any more. Also fuck Ubuntu.

~~~
thefunnyman
It seems a bit absurd that this is still a reason to say 'fuck ubuntu' when
they listened to user feedback and reversed that feature. I can't think of any
other similar missteps in recent years.

~~~
a1369209993
> I can't think of any other similar missteps in recent years.

I stopped using Ubuntu a while ago due to a large number of individually minor
"missteps", so I don't have any equally blatant/memorable (or particularly
recent) examples, but there were enough of them to be a constant hazard of
updating anything.

(For similar _ly large_ , there's systemd and wayland, but neither those are
specific to Ubuntu.)

Also, someone (for analogy) dumping toxic waste into a drinking water supply,
and then listening to feedback and ceasing to dump toxic waste into the water
supply, still seems like a damn good reason to say "fuck those guys in
particular" to me, and that's what shipping malware in a software update
amounts to.

------
moomin
Reminder that “New” Microsoft Edge is just Chrone with different spyware. So
yeah, I’m still using Firefox thanks.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
FWIW, Microsoft did add tracking prevention tools much like Firefox and Safari
have. So they did add the common browser feature Google refuses to integrate.
Privacy-minded people who insist on using Chrome _should_ switch to Edge over
Chrome.

But I refuse to contribute to the Chromium monoculture.

~~~
swebs
No they shouldn't. They should switch to Firefox or Safari. Or at the very
least Chromium (from a Linux package manager).

~~~
notriddle
Your advice makes no sense.

Are you assuming that the user is on Windows? In that case, Safari is not an
option (Apple stopped working on Safari for Windows ages ago), nor is the
Linux package manager an option (the closest option is Chocolatey, but most
people don't use that). Since we're discussing Edge, it's probably safe to
assume that they're running Windows.

Or are you assuming that they're running a Mac? In that case, the Linux
package manager still isn't an option, and we're kind of off-topic because the
original post was about Windows and its default web browser.

Or are you assuming that they're running Linux? In that case, you can't get
Safari, nor can you get Edge, and you're probably running Firefox or Ungoogled
Chromium already by default. So what's the problem?

~~~
ginko
There's Firefox for Windows you know..

------
aneutron
Microsoft doing shady stuff again.

It's really a shame. The engineering that the teams at Microsoft put to the
kernel and the actual operating system at large is amazing.

But then some Product Management division decides to shove this shit down
people's throat and, for me at least, ruins all the fun of what would is
otherwise an amazing piece of an operating system.

I paid for an operating system, just let me use the damn thing in peace will
you ...

~~~
Delmania
How is this shady compared to Google's ads for Chrome on google.com or the
paid search results in the App Store? All the tech giants participate in this
behavior.

~~~
m-watson
I think part of the issue is that it is on the OS level rather than browser
level on a specific website but I agree, they are all shady.

~~~
disiplus
that, and also we paid for the windows license.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Once, maybe; Windows' business model has changed, they are only charging for
Windows 10 OEM now and have stopped trying to publish a new paid version every
few years. Their business model is recurring payments now like Office365 and
OneDrive, but also ads inside of applications and I presume selling your usage
data to third parties.

~~~
jammygit
Non OEM copies of Windows are like $200+ (unless you buy the fake/scam keys
from amazon recommended windows sellers)

~~~
zeusk
You can still run the 10 upgrade assistant and get it for free.

------
metalliqaz
I dread the web we will get if Firefox dies. Could you imagine the only major
browser being created by the largest advertiser?

~~~
idoubtit
Firefox accounts for about 5% of browsers used. It's not dead, but far from
thriving, and many web sites ignore Firefox to the point they are not
compatible with it. Yet I have not seen a major impact of this quasi-
disappearance.

~~~
metalliqaz
True but until very recently there was also Microsoft in the game.

------
eternalny1
Back to the anti-competitive behavior that got them in trouble years ago.

Someone inside Microsoft at a senior level needs to intervene here with the
marketing teams and tell them to stop.

~~~
Delmania
How is this different than getting an ad for Chrome when you go to google.com?

~~~
Vrondi
Because we paid money for this OS license, and we didn't go to Microsoft.com

~~~
will4274
Should Hulu's business model be illegal? Paid+ads is a valid product strategy
and Win10 consumer editions follow this strategy.

------
oefrha
I’m certainly less triggered by this textual ad than Candy Crush Saga next the
start menu even with my goddamn Pro license.

Also it’s quite odd that Firefox is singled out.

~~~
oefrha
Btw, I should add that the always-on OneDrive button placed in a prime spot of
File Explorer so that you inevitably click on it by accident every so often
which then launches OneDrive, plus the regular “security” nag that you aren’t
backing up to OneDrive is way worse. Surprised no one even talks about this.
(IIRC the OneDrive button can only be disabled via registry or group policy.
Might not even be possible on Home Edition. Ridiculous.)

Disclosure: I was actually a dedicated OneDrive user back in the days. Even
wrote a full blown CLI suite for it. I pulled the crap out when they decided
that unlimited = 1TB.

------
raxxorrax
Yes, still using Firefox because Edge is complete shite. Thank you for asking.
And now please remove yourself, unnecessary and unhelpful start menu.

~~~
jefftk
Are you talking about the old Edge or the new one? The new Blink-based Edge is
pretty good, and doesn't have the lingering incompatibilities of old EdgeHTML.

~~~
raxxorrax
The old Edge to be fair. I don't think it is that bad, but the html engine
would be the least of my concern. Only rarely do I create websites and Edge
gave me no problems here.

I don't like its restrictive and opinionated settings. Some criticism has been
adressed but I don't have an incentive to switch. Because I believe bad habits
of MS resurface as soon as enough people do so. I have seen that it got
better, but it just isn't enough. I don't use an online account for my OS
because that would be silly, so some of its functions aren't even accessible.

Overall it just cannot be configured to my liking. It is usable, but certainly
no Firefox.

------
mcherm
Does anyone know enough to comment on how this jives with the settlement that
Microsoft reached with the EU around 2010 over accusations of leveraging their
monopoly in operating systems to drive user choice in browsers?

~~~
despera
Considering that the browser choice UI first "neglected" and then removed from
Windows we can safely call this another EU bubble.

------
DrScientist
The prominence of the ad tells you how important browsers are both to revenue
streams and computing experience.

So many apps are now delivered over the web the OS is becoming increasingly
irrelevant.

The rise of the web has done more for the viability of desktop linux than
anything else.

------
Shorel
The old Edge is one of the best Epub readers I have ever used.

The new Edge, I have no reason at all to use it over Firefox. I hope no
banking website makes it necessary to use Edge, as it happened with previous
Microsoft browsers.

~~~
squaresmile
Yep, it's a shame that they removed it and actively prevented me from using it
even though I still have old Edge on my system.

Now I need to import epubs into Calibre to have a reasonable epub reader.

~~~
efreak
FBReader is available for windows, if you're looking for open source (keeping
in mind that the Android version is no longer open source, so it's not the
same FBReader). CoolReader is also available for windows.

Personally, I actually prefer calibre's ebook reader; if you dislike it, but
do use a Calibre library, Calibre Web [0] has a (IMO) fairly decent browser-
based ebook reader

[0]: [https://github.com/janeczku/calibre-
web](https://github.com/janeczku/calibre-web)

------
SmellyGeekBoy
One of the many reasons why I hate Windows 10. Just get out of my way and let
me use my computer how I want.

I'd put on my "smug Linux user" hat but to be honest my distro of choice
(Ubuntu) has Amazon search integrated by default. The only saving grace is
that it can be easily, completely, and permanently removed with just a couple
of commands.

Seriously considering a Macbook for my next computer at this point.

~~~
maweki
Why is Ubuntu your distro of choice then? No need to throw the baby out with
the bathwater by buying into Apple's walled garden.

~~~
tgsovlerkhgsel
Because Ubuntu is still the closest you get to "it just works" for Linux
Desktops. (Not claiming you actually get there, just close).

~~~
maweki
I think this is quite a misconception. I've used Ubuntu for years and it
basically broke on me with every major version upgrade.

I have never ever hat a Fedora system bail out on me in that manner and I have
multiple PCs. My Dad and my Grandma's friends also use Fedora and they have
yet to manage to break it and they are allowed to install software.

------
chooseaname
It is the Microsoft sleight of hand. One hand is showing you want you want to
see; Open Source initiatives, developer glad-handing, etc. While the other
hand does this.

~~~
woofie11
It's more like hundreds of teams who don't talk to each other.

~~~
iaml
This old picture [0] doesn't seem to lose relevance, heh.

[0] [https://imgur.com/gallery/EoUy6I5](https://imgur.com/gallery/EoUy6I5)

------
nomadiccoder
I love Firefox, I use it on every OS. I do use Chrome for accessing my RStudio
server because the performance is significantly better. Chrome on Android also
feels better than Firefox on Android but I use both interchangeably. I use
Edge for reading PDFs on my windows PC because it is usually convenient and
somewhat infrequent.

Im not entirely convinced why, but think very strongly that it is important to
diversify your software and hardware solutions. Additionally it seems prudent
that one company doesn't own the full stack, this pushes me away from Edge and
Safari.

------
hutattedonmyarm
I recently got a similar "suggestion", see [0]. I was super mad, because I
have turned the "show suggestions in start menu" setting turned off, so it
felt like it's disrespectign my settings

[0]
[https://metalhead.club/system/media_attachments/files/001/94...](https://metalhead.club/system/media_attachments/files/001/942/616/original/c5e386f986de0344.png)

------
givinguflac
My god if apple did something like this people would burn cities down. Why do
people still trust Microsoft when their OS is literally a native advertising
and tracking tool now

~~~
lorenzhs
It would appear that they do:
[https://twitter.com/mxwllt/status/882190696224083968](https://twitter.com/mxwllt/status/882190696224083968)
(the picture shows a desktop notification _" Try the new Safari – Fast, energy
efficient, and with a beautiful new design."_ with "Later" and "Try Now" as
possible actions, and apparently popped up when the tweet's author opened
Chrome), see also:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22289499](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22289499)

~~~
cannam
Yep - this comes up as soon as you open Firefox, each time you install a macOS
update. I've just finished updating a Mac to macOS 10.15.3, so I saw this
loathsome dialog not five minutes ago.

Without having seen what MS are doing in action yet, this really doesn't sound
all that different on the face of it. I particularly dislike that the only
buttons are Later and Try Now - you can't dismiss it without some measure of
acquiescence, the Fuck Off Forever button being unaccountably missing.

~~~
smileybarry
Microsoft's "ad" amounts to a Start Menu suggestion that doesn't even appear
if you turn off "Show suggestions occasionally in Start", nothing like Apple's
notification. It doesn't even use a "pop-up"/focus-grabbing UI. (And it can be
dismissed by right-click > "Don't show this suggestion")

EDIT: I was referring to the ad mentioned in the article, at least. Someone
else in this thread pointed out a different Start suggestion: searching
"firefox" brings up an extra banner message suggesting Edge, but it doesn't
hijack the actual search suggestions or keyboard controls. (i.e.: you don't
need to scroll/navigate past it)

------
egdod
> Many of those who commented in the linked reddit thread actually praise
> Microsoft Edge, explaining that they already installing the new browser and
> it’s just as good as Chrome or Firefox. And of course, many remind that it’s
> possible to disable suggestions in the Start menu to block such “ads” from
> showing up again.

Gotta wonder if that’s astroturfing.

~~~
raxxorrax
No, from experience the users are often earnest in their madness.

But you can keep your faith in humanity a little bit, since this was posted on
the windows 10 subreddit.

To their defense, Chrome and Firefox both have bad settings menues that slowly
adjust themselves to match Edges horribleness. And it is not only power users
complaining about the mess.

------
maxwellito
This is pretty sad, but Apple was doing this as well. Less mean tho. But at
every restart of Chrome, I had a notification to use Safari.

[https://twitter.com/mxwllt/status/882190696224083968](https://twitter.com/mxwllt/status/882190696224083968)

~~~
MagnumOpus
Google, Apple, Microsoft - the holy trinity of abusing dominant market
positions. Would that change if they were broken up? Somehow my hunch is that
the "independent" Edge or Chrome subsidiaries will immediately get roped into
a gimme-data-or-else revenue agreement with the remainder of GOOG and/or
MSFT...

------
pergadad
Weird end to the article. Seems Microsoft is paying some social media shills?

~~~
NikkiA
Microsoft literally invented online astroturfing

------
jacquesm
All of you that keep telling me I should get over it and accept Nadella as a
'new kind of CEO' compared to Ballmer and Gates please explain yourselves. Do
you _really_ believe that this sort of thing happens without an OK from the
top? Do you _really_ believe that MS can be trusted, that GitHub really is in
the best hands that it could be in and that we should let bygones be bygones
because MS has changed its ways?

~~~
thekyle
> Do you really believe that this sort of thing happens without an OK from the
> top?

I mean I really doubt that Nadella or anyone else at the "top" is involved
with minor UX changes to Windows.

------
crmrc114
I have no interest in this product
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish)

------
mirimir
I pretty much gave up on Windows over a decade ago. After years and years of
doing this and that to prevent snooping, I finally had enough.

I did keep a Win7 VM, however, in order to use Excel and Word for work. But I
migrated all personal stuff to various Linux machines and VMs.

I've mostly used Debian. For transient VMs, I mostly use stock Gnome. But also
XFCE, which is light and cute, and is the new default for Whonix. Mirimir's
main VM runs Bunsen Labs Helium, which is basically OpenBox, with a dock
across the top, Conky, lots of shortcut keys, and right-click menu. Also
pretty light, and uncluttered.

But I don't really care that much how stuff looks. As long as it doesn't
interfere with usability. And I do admit that the latest Gnome has done some
stupid things to some of my old favorites. Gedit, for example, has been
incredibly dumbed down. There's no shortcut key for "save as"! And much useful
stuff is now hidden in a hamburger, and you actually need to tweak it to make
stuff show up there.

------
RabbiPires
>Many of those who commented in the linked reddit thread actually praise
Microsoft Edge, explaining that they already installed the new browser, and
it’s just as good as Chrome or Firefox.

Completely organic too, I presume.

------
pgt
If Satya is listening, my next machine was going to be a Windows box, but this
is the fastest way to lose my business as a developer.

------
rafaelvasco
Never saw these adds, as I disabled it all. But that's ridiculous.

~~~
moksly
Building adds into the start menu search is ridiculous.

~~~
Erlich_Bachman
How do normal people (who use Windows) think that this is ok? In what universe
is that possibly ok - to put ads in a paid-for OS? No matter the context, no
matter the version of an os, no matter the reason, no matter what the ads are
for, no matter that they could through some questionable hacking or editing be
removed - _ads_ in a _paid-for_ OS. Has the whole world gone crazy? What is
going on here?

~~~
Kunigaikstis
\- Linux isn't very user friendly to begin with, whether it's in the form of
OS usage or apps that you're used to. \- A lot of people, including myself,
grew up with Windows. Switching right now, after tens of years of usage, seems
unnecessary still. \- WARNING, personal opinion: Windows is the only platform
for gamers.

~~~
rafaelvasco
Yeah, only reason I'm staying with Windows for the foreseeable future is
because of the much superior app and games support compared to other
platforms. Would have no problem going for Linux if it supported all my apps,
steam catalog etc. I know things been improving in this area. For games, what
must happen is the advent of a full cross platform graphics abstraction.
WebGPU is a promising one. Vulkan too. But it's a very hard problem.

------
antisthenes
I'm staying on W7 until extended paid support ends (W10 doesn't do anything
for me functionality-wise.) W7 is incidentally the only MS product I ever paid
money for (student copy of Pro for $30)

Then I'm switching to Linux.

Ads on individual websites I can tolerate, but not in an OS.

------
matteuan
Screnshotted this some weeks ago: [http://geekpic.net/pm-
WMNY1S.html](http://geekpic.net/pm-WMNY1S.html) It appears something like 10%
of the times when I search for Chrome or Firefox. I find it shameful

------
yborg
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you
win.

If nothing else convinced people Firefox is back, this should tip the scale.

~~~
themacguffinman
Based on what? If Microsoft can show ads for Candy Crush with impunity, I
don't know why you think this will tip any scales.

Firefox has also lost ~2% desktop marketshare since 2018. Firefox is
definitely not "back" and ready to fight a non-garbage browser.

------
ChicagoDave
I’d also note that ten years ago this would be actual news.

People just don’t care because Windows 10 is stable and Microsoft is probably
the least evil, most admired, corporation on the planet.

“Still bitching about Microsoft 2003? Try the new 2020 Microsoft!”

------
bubblethink
Purely from the meme perspective, I think the "Still using X ? Y is here"
phrase has some value. Sort of like those jokes about how if IE can ask you to
be the default browser, you can do X.

------
slowmovintarget
What's funny about this is they seem like they're way behind the times. A long
time ago I switched to Firefox... it got worse (comparatively), and I switched
to Chrome for everything, a long time ago.

Google started disabling and neutering things like ad blocking, enforcing
rules and settings with exceptions for Google domains. Firefox dramatically
improved both its responsiveness and its security and privacy features. Last
year, I switched back to Firefox.

Why was Edge not a consideration? Because I use Macs everywhere except my
gaming PC at home.

~~~
91edec
Edge runs on Mac

------
ForHackernews
Why are they attacking Firefox instead of Chrome? It seems really weird.

~~~
neogodless
I came here to discuss this. It probably doesn't need to be said, but the
brains behind this marketing don't understand their users... assuming they are
actually targeting Firefox.

My guess would be that Firefox users mostly consist of people that know enough
to not use Chrome or a Microsoft browser. And an ad won't change that. Chrome
is the new IE as far as the default that everyone uses, so it would make sense
if they targeted them.

"Get the same browsing experience with better integration with Windows."
(That's probably not true, but this is advertising, which never stopped
anyone.)

------
intrepidhero
Not even slightly surprised.

When I got my Win 10 machine at work I typed "python" into my command line to
see if it was installed and was shocked I didn't get a "command not found"
message back, and confused when the MS Store popped up a second later. Win 10
ships with a python.exe that redirects to the MS Store and they hide in a
place that makes its tough to remove from the path.

When I got Win 10 at home I got to the shady telemetry opt-out page and
immediate switched the install to debian.

~~~
mlrtime
For most users this is great. Instead of having to find where to download
python and install it, Microsoft will do it for you from the store. How is
this different than ubuntu suggesting the apt command when you type a command?

~~~
efreak
As one example (with a relatively trivial fix): the deep subfolder it gets
installed in can cause path length issues [0]. There's a trivial fix (registry
edit) to enable long paths, but that's not very user friendly. This affected
me immediately--the first package I tried to install failed (possibly htop? I
can't remember anymore...)

apt installs packages for the system as a whole. Microsoft store does not.

[0] [https://bugs.python.org/issue37769](https://bugs.python.org/issue37769)

------
Carpetsmoker
This kind of stuff isn't new and has been going on for years.

When I got a new laptop in 2017 I had a look at Windows 10 to see what it's
like before I replaced it with Linux, and I got similar messages. I wrote a
thing about it which has some screenshots: [https://www.arp242.net/browsers-
conflict-interest.html](https://www.arp242.net/browsers-conflict-
interest.html)

------
swiley
Windows 10 home is an active attack on the user and the enterprise version
isn’t much better. I’m constantly shocked at how popular the OS continues to
be.

------
bryanrasmussen
Given that everything is Chrome nowadays and Firefox has a very small share of
the market, this seems stupid.

Maybe someone finished a task on the backlog from 2014.

------
ulkesh
I completely understand that this is not exactly what anyone wants to see in
the Start menu or any other actively used feature of Windows. But I find this
considerably less egregious than Microsoft buying Github, or "embracing"
Linux, as if it only has the open source community's welfare at heart.

Microsoft is a for-profit, public company. They will do anything and
everything in their own self-interest and to please their shareholders. While
I have certainly posted my disdain in the past, especially for the Github
buyout, I put this squarely in the same vein as when Canonical put Amazon
search ads in the Dash on Ubuntu. It was a mistake for Canonical then, and
it's a mistake for Microsoft now. If Microsoft truly want to show they're
different, then they can put ads where the ads belong -- in the Microsoft App
Store, or on television or other streaming media.

Still using Firefox? Of course, we are. And we will continue to do so.

------
CivBase
Why Firefox? Chrome has a bigger market share to take. Edge is built on
Chromium now so it should be a more familiar environment for Chrome users.
Microsoft is in a position to compete with many of the integration features
that make Chrome appealing to many users. Surely it makes more sense to target
Chrome than Firefox.

~~~
pawelk
Microsoft made me install Chrome just the other day. A company I work with
decided to try MS Teams for communication and when I went there using Firefox,
it simply refused to let me in and told me to get Chrome. They couldn't
suggest Edge because I'm on Linux, so at least they did not require me to
switch my OS.

edit: after accepting the invite and setting up an account I can use the
product just fine in Firefox.

~~~
Arnavion
Yeah, for some inane reason direct links to Teams channels, chats, etc block
you if you don't have a Chrome UA. In reality the only thing that actually
needs Chrome is calls (which don't work on FF even with a Chrome UA).

------
solarkraft
Still using Windows? Many wonderful Linux distributions are here.

~~~
NexRebular
Still using linux? Many wonderful BSD and illumos systems are here.

~~~
betaby
With added security! Air-gaped, no WiFi 802.11AC for you.

------
OscarTheGrinch
I'm gonna plug my favourite solution to most Win10 BS> Open shell. It does a
decent job of turning the start menu / add platform back into a start menu.

[https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/](https://open-
shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/)

------
runjake
If you think this is bad now, wait until you see when/if they gain market
dominance again.

This is just a sad fact of (at least, US) corporations. Stock price, stock
price, stock price.

It even afflicts our beloved Apple. They pull the same tactics but somehow get
a pass, most of the time.

------
twodave
I think a big part of this is just human nature. Microsoft believes they have
a superior browser. They have a large amount of influence due to their
software platform. It's got to be super tempting to get the word out with your
most direct means of advertising (in your product).

I don't agree with it, but I understand it and even expect it. Recognizing
this in other areas of life is super valuable, too. e.g. why is the dentist
recommending X hipster toothpaste? Is it actually better? Or do they have a
stake of some kind? Looking at your purchasing decisions in such a pessimistic
(read: realistic) way can protect you from a lot of pseudo-science and other
garbage you don't need in your life.

------
nearmuse
Still using Windows? Still using Office (360)? Still using GitHub?

These aren't maybe exactly ripe for disruption, but since all of them have
existed for ages now almost without any game-changing innovation these
questions are very valid as well.

~~~
choward
Those aren't even the worst. What about linked in?

~~~
holler
I still to this day haven't used LinkedIn and refuse to use it, simply because
of the dark-patterns they employed years ago with abusive, intrusive, and
unsolicited email invites.

------
paulcarroty
Is there a way to buy ad directly on Windows desktop yet? It will be very
interesting for software promotion [irony].

MS seems like don't care for desktop users 'cause monopoly. Seems like my
decision to avoid their products was positive.

------
solarkraft
Just stop using it. I'm glad I have given it up a long time ago. It's like
that person who keeps promising they will do better. They won't. Just stop
wasting your time on Microsoft products.

------
globular-toast
"Microsoft loves open source".

------
at-fates-hands
I'm just wondering if this is Google pushing MS to do this, or if this is MS
alone trying to make this happen. For all of the other MS branded products
they push, I've never seen this for their other products.

This really feels like Google pushing them somehow to do this. They really
could've done this a ton of their other products and never have. The first
"collaboration" with a known shady advertising company and then these start
popping up?

I can only conclude Google has a hand in this somehow.

------
Causality1
I'm beginning to get tired of these shitbirds. Remember when "bad behavior"
was bundling a web browser with your OS? How innocent we were.

------
GuB-42
Is it specifically anti-Firefox or anti-not-Edge?

Is there a "Still using Chrome?" message, or a "Still using IE?".

I don't really understand the reason for going after Firefox specifically.
Going after Chrome would make more sense to me. Chrome has the biggest user
base, and now that Edge is based on Chromium, they can get users to switch
without having them change their habits too much.

------
hellofunk
Ads built into an OS is such a massive antipattern.

------
chinathrow
I recently upgraded a Windows 7 installation to Windows 10. There was both
Thunderbird and Firefox installed, of each one version.

After the upgrade, Firefox asked to be the default browser (first idiotic
change by the Windows team) and then didn't identify the existing Firefox
installation and only listed Edge and IE as a selection (second mishap).

Time for another round of regulations.

------
methehack
It's back! The good old days of Micro$loth!

------
tripzilch
I wonder if anti-ads actually aren't allowed where I live (in NL), or whether
we just think they are below us.

------
PretzelFisch
They have a pretty good browser again, and this looks more like a play to get
more bing search in front of more people. They make a lot of money with everly
little % increases in add display. I am not sure I feel this is different then
Google trying to get you to browser switch when visiting their search site in
Firefox or Edge.

------
jagger27
How many times does Microsoft need to get slapped with an anti-trust on _this
specific issue_ to learn their lesson?

~~~
jacquesm
Until they really get punished.

------
unethical_ban
I'm interested in why anyone "needs" Chrome for work. My only thoughts are
that they aren't admin and are forced to use it, or that FF historically
didn't play well with corporate SSO. As of the past few months, however, that
problem has mostly gone away.

Is there anything Chrome can do that FF just _can 't_?

------
pvh
Just for kicks, I tried using internet explorer for a few weeks a while back.
It seemed like every Google property was constantly prompting me to switch to
Chrome. I mention this not to defend Microsoft, whose behavior here it
intolerable, but to point out that this kind of thing is unfortunately common.

------
mikegreenberg
For all the good they are doing, you'd wonder there's some alterior motive.
Reminded me to re-read this article: [http://pedrocr.pt/text/microsofts-love-
of-linux/](http://pedrocr.pt/text/microsofts-love-of-linux/)

------
Vrondi
Microsoft's marketing teams have been crap, well, forever. They somehow always
fail to make the public aware of their coolest features, while at the same
time doing slimy stuff like this. I do sometimes wonder if they intentionally
try to sabotage the company.

------
AegirLeet
This kind of stuff is exactly why I'm not "upgrading" from Windows 7 to 10.

------
miguelmota
Firefox is like a Toyota; it sometimes lacks the latest bells and whistles but
it’s always been reliable and generally cares about your safety.

Microsoft is pushing hard on Edge to get more users to use Bing and more Bing
users means more search ad revenue.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
> it sometimes lacks the latest bells and whistles but it’s always been
> reliable and generally cares about your safety.

Automotive engineer for 20 years. How people still think Toyota today is
Toyota of the 1990s, I have no idea. Pro Tip... Every car mfg uses the exact
same suppliers. The seats in the Toyota Corrola are made by Johnson Controls,
same as any GM. Hyundai builds the frame for Jeep Wrangler and other body on
frame trucks. The new Tacoma has a foot and a half of fascia between the grill
and bumper because the supplier for the cooling package, bumper, frame, and
class-A sheetmetal couldn't agree on things. The electronics in the Fiat 500,
are mostly the same as what's in a $400,000 Ferrari. McClaren doesn't spend
1/100th the money that Ford does on power management for a single vehicle, so
you need to plug in your super car with a trickle charger when it's not being
driven. .... Long story short, almost all vehicles have the same poor
reliability right now. This current crop of vehicles 2018+ are easily the
least reliable vehicles ever built, mfg doesn't matter.

~~~
miguelmota
I agree it’s not best analogy but the point was that Firefox is more
lightweight and implement more privacy and secure features than competitors.

------
rafaelvasco
I have to wonder who is responsible for this bs. I admire several aspects of
Microsoft, but then things like this appear. It would be ok (barely) to
promote the browser in the OS, but to mention a competitor explicitly is just
bad.

------
rammy1234
Why to attack, rather mention good things about the new product and off we go.
we give power back to user hands for to decide. I guess some amount persuasion
is required but with facts why to switch rather than blunt comment.

------
z3t4
Still using Xsomthing? That was so _two months_ ago. Things move fast in the
fashion _cough_ software world. Meanwhile our OS has a pseudo terminal layer,
and we are using x86 processors...

------
Starkus
I like Firefox, better logo

------
abdulmuhaimin
This one simple ad destroyed any goodwill I have towards Microsoft.

------
zelly
For a company that cares so much about developers, they should have known
better than to mess with the sacred cow that is Firefox.

------
eitland
Just when you think that Microsoft has learned to sit quiet when Google is
busy messing up.

Nope. Not this time either. Have to keep up with Google.

------
butterfi
Here comes new Microsoft, same as old Microsoft.

------
partiallypro
I've almost never seen such an over reaction to something in my entire life.
Suggested apps are something you can turn off, and they have had suggested
apps for a while. People keeps saying Microsoft shouldn't do passive
aggressive ads? How do you think Firefox and Chrome (Google still does this in
Google search, and you can't turn it off?) People are not as tech literate as
you think, some people have no idea that Edge now runs on Chromium.

------
bprasanna
Not cool MS. Stunts like these will take a toll on TRUST! Why don't you target
Chrome! Which is a bigger evil!?

------
RedComet
Good thing for them the CEO is brown now, Ballmer caught more shit for just
wanting to attract developers.

------
tracker1
Not as bad as the one they put over the top of a pinned chrome icon on the
start menu a few times.

------
anonymou2
still using Windows?

------
seanthegeek
Does Microsoft intend to at least open source this new Chromium-based Edge?

------
fortran77
I just installed and ran Firefox. I was presented with a page of ads:

[https://i.imgur.com/HiS8k1L.png](https://i.imgur.com/HiS8k1L.png)

Note that the "top sites" aren't my top sites. They're ads. And then there's
an ad at the bottom.

~~~
ForHackernews
Unless you're personally donating large sums of money to Mozilla, you need to
stop whining about their innocuous, non-spyware ads that are easily removed.

Your alternative isn't some hypothetical "pure" browser. Your choices are
Microsoft spyware, Google spyware, or presumably some Chinese spyware. Or
Firefox, imperfect though it may be.

There are now only two viable rendering engines left in the browser world, and
Firefox Gecko is one of them.

~~~
fortran77
I wasn't whining about it. I was just pointing out that the people saying
"Micrsoft is evil! Use Firefox" aren't telling the whole story.

I don't mind either ad. Both are easily removed.

------
theferalrobot
The title seems misleading... how is saying, "still using firefox" Anti-
firefox?

It's just a fact that firefox hit its prime in terms of market share long ago.
It's now at what like 4% market share and falling? Hell, 'Samsung internet' is
about to pass it up.

~~~
Yolta
Apparently, Microsoft deemed it popular enough to show ads targeting Firefox
users

------
fctorial
Some sleep deprived developer typed firefox instead of internet explorer.

~~~
giancarlostoro
Honestly the way it reads it was probably intended for Internet Explorer users
but it smartly chose to display the default browser. Would love to see if it
shows different for someone with only Chrome or Chrome as a default, vs
someone with IE still installed.

------
suifbwish
And they are breaking chrome each time they update windows now.

------
eeZah7Ux
"Microsoft supports Open Source now!" /s

------
ChicagoDave
I think Microsoft has every right to suggest their own browser.

Chrome does it. Firefox does it. You have to opt out of the reminder. So you
have to opt out of Start menu ads.

Big deal.

Can we focus on something slighty less trivial please?

~~~
zulban
Firefox is a browser. Chrome is a browser. Windows is an operating system.
Consider having a closer look at the IE anti-trust cases to better understand
the difference.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Trying to special case an operating system as the reason this is so bad misses
the point. The reason Google abuses it's home page to push Chrome is because
Google controls the world's most popular home page. The reason Microsoft
abuses it's operating system to push Edge is because Microsoft controls the
world's most popular operating system (for desktops, anyways).

This is not about what is an OS and what is a browser (and things like
Chromebooks make that line super blurry anyways). It's about monopolies using
their market dominance in one category (which ever it is) to illegally expand
their presence in other categories.

------
ourmandave
Will this even moving the needle on Chrome users?

------
shmerl
MS is still sour they lost the browser wars?

------
terrycody
I am using firefox and I love it so much!

------
oscarb92
"still using Firefox?"

no, still using Chrome ;)

------
at_a_remove
Another reason to get an LTSB license.

------
mmgutz
Does it also do the same for Chrome?

------
dooglius
Would anyone bat an eye if, say, Thunderbird had a thing saying "Still using
IE? Try Firefox."

------
luckyorlame
it is a complete overreaction, unless everything you do an an overation.

------
Brave-Steak
Who can I send an email to in the EU who's willing to investigate this?
There's got to be some institution that gives a shit.

------
pcdoodle
This is exactly why I switched to Mac and no longer use Windows for Point of
Sale and NVR installs.

~~~
fortran77
Did you get angry when there was an ad for iCloud during the install process?

------
a3n
"Ads in a paid-for OS!?!"

Did you buy it and own it, or did you license it?

------
GoToRO
It's not anti-Firefox. It's anti-the-other-browser-that-you-use. It doesn't
bother me at all. There are other, more serious things big corporations can do
that make me worry.

------
fraktl
This will be unpopular but I don't care - I see nothing shady. They're
promoting their product. In the era when we're lied to at every corner of
internet, I see nothing wrong with Microsoft promoting their new and AWESOME
browser.

Sadly, despite my love for Mozilla and Firefox, Edge is superior browser for
__me __. It looks better, it works faster, it uses less memory and its
developer console is much snappier, detailed and I am used to working with it.
I 'm sure there are people who would say the same about Firefox.

I would love for Firefox to be the best browser, both technically and
subjectively. But it isn't (yet, and again - for __ME __).

Having hated Microsoft for a long time and having thought of Google as
godsend, my opinion has changed in 2020. Microsoft did some amazing things for
OSS community and for us web developers (Typescript, VSCode, Edge, Github.. I
can stop here but there's more).

I actually recommend Edge to other people. The wording Microsoft chose might
not be the best, but what are they supposed to do? Do nothing? What would the
titles be then? _" Trillion dollar company inept in promoting their latest and
best product. Shareholders stumped."_

By the way, the site that reports the issue (softpedia) loads ads and unwanted
cookies. Using the same SJW logic, could I discredit their misleading title
based on the source of their revenue?

~~~
icebraining
> what are they supposed to do? Do nothing?

Isn't Edge still actually bundled with Windows? How is that _nothing_?

> SJW logic

WTF?! What part of this is "SJW"? And how is their title misleading?

