
Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? - zdw
https://thewirecutter.com/blog/i-bought-these-things-from-amazon-prime-can-you-tell-which-ones-are-real/
======
ThePhysicist
It's funny: I always thought the Internet and platforms like Amazon with the
collaborative reviewing system would make brands more and more obsolete,
because you could just pick high-quality products from smaller manufacturers
by looking at user reviews.

Now I find that I rely more and more on brands to decide which things I buy,
because I simply cannot trust user reviews in most of the cases. Recently
there are more and more Chinese products flooding Amazon (Germany) with
products that have hundreds of well-written positive reviews. I have to assume
that most of them are fake because there's no way that some niche product can
have more reviews than let's say a PS4 or Nintendo Switch, which is sold
millions of times.

Really a shame that Amazon does not seem to care much about this, maybe a
chance for the smaller shops to take back some lost business though. I find
that I buy more in smaller e-commerce shops, because I find they're much less
affected by the review fraud and often ship things just as fast as Amazon.

~~~
BiteCode_dev
Unfortunate, brand loyalty doesn't mean anything anymore:

\- a lot of companies don't manufacture the product themself

\- they don't even manufacture two products from the same subcontractor

\- sometime, the same product, between two batches, is not produce by the same
sub-contractor

\- big players just don't care. Cisco is not going to lose business because
you chose to not buy, and most people won't follow you to allow the boycott to
have enough wait

\- PR firms are so powerful now they can make any brand great again. See
Microsoft. I guaranty there will be people that will want to answer this
comment stating how they really are a good firm now. And cite great things
they do. Yet I bet in 10 years, we will learn about some other horrible things
they did. Again. It's been like that for decades. PR works extremely well now,
people genuinely live the feeling they've been lead to by those amazing
consent manufacturer.

\- a brand is dead ? Don't worry, it will be renamed into another one. Or
subcontract for another one. You will buy its product again, you will just
don't know you do.

~~~
onion2k
_PR firms are so powerful now they can make any brand great again. See
Microsoft. I guaranty there will be people that will want to answer this
comment stating how they really are a good firm now. And cite great things
they do. Yet I bet in 10 years, we will learn about some other horrible things
they did. Again._

In rhetoric this is what's known as "inoculating the argument", or
"inoculation theory". You take a reasonable criticism of what you've said and
present a weakened version of what someone might respond with in order to
suggest that means that response is invalid.

The thing is though, in this case, you've not really presented a solid
argument. All you've said is "Microsoft _might_ be doing _terrible_ things!",
which is potentially true, but it's a bad reason to ignore the obviously good
things that we can see. What your argument boils down to is that once a
company loses your trust they can _never_ get it back regardless of what they
do. In which case you're removing yourself from the conversation because
you're only ever going to be negative.

~~~
mixmastamyk
I appreciate your logic. However, MS continues to do wrong, forced telemetry
and upgrades, ads in the OS, are but a few examples. Only now drowned out.

~~~
aguyfromnb
> _MS continues to do wrong, forced telemetry and upgrades, ads in the OS_

These things might be unpreferable to you, but none of them are "wrong".

~~~
sn4pp
"forced telemetry" is very wrong.

Let's see how long it takes until that is illegal in your country.

~~~
mortivore
There are some people that think if something isn't illegal, then it isn't
wrong. It's really weird.

~~~
homonculus1
Most people never get past Kohlberg Stage 4.

~~~
dhimes
I had never heard of this

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_o...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development)

From the wiki page, there are three levels that include 6 stages (two each):

    
    
            Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
    
                1. Obedience and punishment orientation
    
                        (How can I avoid punishment?)
    
                2. Self-interest orientation
    
                        (What's in it for me?)
                        (Paying for a benefit)
    
            Level 2 (Conventional)
    
                3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
    
                        (Social norms)
                        (The good boy/girl attitude)
    
                4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
    
                        (Law and order morality)
    
            Level 3 (Post-Conventional)
    
                5. Social contract orientation
                6. Universal ethical principles
    
                        (Principled conscience)

------
someonehere
I have friends who are no longer buying from Amazon. Especially friends with
kids. You can’t trust anything safe for your kids when crap like this is
allowed. Amazon is in a race to flood the market with availability at the cost
of consumer confidence.

Remember all the hoverboard fires you saw on the news several years ago? They
weren’t knock offs, but items sold that didn’t have any real safety
certifications in mind. Amazon only cares something bad happens on the news
and they’re involved.

~~~
nappy-doo
My neighbor bought a set of woodworking clamps from Amazon. When the ~25lb.
box arrived, the driver threw them up onto his porch (his house is quite
raised from the street), and he has video of it damaging his siding as it took
three attempts for the driver to get them over the railing onto his porch.
When he contacted Amazon, they said to contact some insurance company they
had. When my neighbor called the insurance company, they never returned the
call.

He proceeded to begin researching the insurance company, which was owned by
Amazon, but wasn't listed as a valid insurance company in Massachusetts. He
contacted Amazon again, and said, "would you like me to call the insurance
commissioner and attorney general that you're operating a non-registered
insurance company in Massachusetts." Someone was out to fix his siding in 3
days, and they painted the porch as well (due to some paint matching problem).

Despite how much I love being able to order stuff, and not have to go out,
Amazon is pretty scum-tacular.

~~~
russh
Did your neighbor call the insurance commissioner and attorney general to tell
them that they were operating a non-registered insurance company in
Massachusetts?

~~~
nappy-doo
No. He contacted the local news, who did nothing, and then had his second kid
and life got in the way.

------
squarefoot
Fake reviews also contribute to more fake and low quality products being sold.
It looks like Amazon simply doesn't care.

[https://thehustle.co/amazon-fake-reviews](https://thehustle.co/amazon-fake-
reviews)

FTA:

"One stay-at-home mom from Kentucky told me she makes $200-300 per month
leaving positive reviews for things like sleep masks, light bulbs, and AV
cables."

“Do you actually like the products?” I asked.

“I don’t know,” she wrote. “I never use them.”

~~~
heavyset_go
I posted about this on HN recently[1]. Within the last month, I've been
getting an increasing amount of native ads on different platforms for "Free
[Product]!". If you engage the ad, you find out that the ad-purchaser wants
you to buy the advertised product and leave a positive review for it on
Amazon, after which they'll refund you for the cost of the product.

Some of these items have thousands of positive reviews[1], which is misleading
to consumers who rely on honest reviews to guide their purchasing behavior.
Also, it is almost comical how difficult it is to reach out to Amazon about
this issue as a user.

In the end, I just contacted my state Attorney General's Consumer Protection
division and the FTC.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22388067](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22388067)

~~~
yomly
If you have examples you can try sending it to jeff@amazon.com and it will
(eventually) get triaged as a sev-b ticket if you're lucky or it is an
interesting enough issue

~~~
heavyset_go
I tried that, but got no response. Might be because of my ProtonMail address,
though.

If anyone has an address I can use to reach out to an actual person, I'd be
more than happy to use it to report these sellers.

------
miked85
I have started buying most products directly from manufacturer's websites or
in physical stores now. The amount of fake products on Amazon is appalling, I
wonder why they don't put effort into stopping this.

~~~
VLM
Very few products on Amazon are sold by the creator. Virtually everything is
sold by a mixture of middlemen and importers and drop shippers.

Its virtually impossible to tell the difference between a product I'm middle-
manning that's interpreted by investigators as real, vs a product that's
interpreted as fake.

With books, nobody really minds if conceptually a book sat unopened on a
bookstore shelf with the general public touching and pawing it occasionally vs
a book that sat pristine untouched and cleaner on my home bookshelf, although
one is marketed as "new" and one as "used", but in practice it usually doesn't
matter. Also see the weirdness with $10 "indian subcontinent only" textbooks
that normally sell for $200 to sucker american students, nobody complains
their book was "fake" with a 95% discount to keep them quiet.

On the other hand, do that same game with toothbrushes and in roll the
complaints.

This may be a problem inherent to online shopping in the long term. A copy of
"Numerical Recipes in C edition 3" is a fungible commodity. Apparently, as per
the linked article, that is not the case with fad overpriced gloves and
toothbrushes. Possibly that type of product is inherently unsuitable for
online purchase.

~~~
Symbiote
> fad overpriced gloves and toothbrushes.

That description is unfair.

Regardless of whether the product is overpriced or fashionable, I want the
correct product, without the shortcuts taken by a fake: unsafe paints,
plastics etc.

I don't mind "Philips-compatible" brush heads being listed, but the
description should be clear.

Otherwise we may as well repeal all trademark, copyright and product safety
laws.

~~~
ikeboy
Several of the examples in OP are admittedly not counterfeit but simply look
too similar to a name brand, or are older versions. Neither is illegal per se.
(Assuming there's no design patent, and the product page doesn't specify year
of manufacture or exact model number, which is common.)

~~~
Polylactic_acid
Almost all of them were using the brand name of the product they were faking.

~~~
ikeboy
There's 6 examples. Out of those, only the first 2 are fakes using the brand
name. How exactly is 33% "almost all"?

3 says "Although the YXTDZ booster is not trying to pass itself off as a
Mifold by name, it’s clearly a knockoff of the Mifold’s unique design."

4 says it was called "Toddler Airplane Travel Safety Harness" and says it
wasn't FAA certified. It doesn't say that it used the brand name.

5 and 6 are authentic products but older stock or a slightly different model
number, respectively.

------
zwaps
If anyone hasn't caught on to this yet:

You can not trust any review on Amazon anymore, not even from verified buyers.
Resellers of Chinese goods will have people (there are facebook groups) to
"buy" these goods and leave a 5-star review for a refund.

Depending on what you get, you may get a fake good, or genuine products that
failed QA, or similar products with less QA from the same factory, or old
tranches, or goods with short best-before dates, goods with a different
composition of ingredients, goods with harmful substances as filler and so
forth. If you buy refurbished goods, chances are pretty good you will run into
region lock or quality issues with no recourse, as brands will refuse (e.g.
Apple) to offer support! Even if this is not the norm, it will sooner or later
happen to you.

Therefore:

-> Do not buy any brand product that costs above an amount you feel comfortable to just lose. Assume you will getting a no name product, then you are fine. Otherwise, try to buy at a store or better, directly at the company. Save yourself the headache.

-> Do not buy things that go into your body, except if the seller is the manufacturer.

-> Do not buy goods that run without supervision, may catch on fire or otherwise damage their surrounding. Do not assume stickers of "CE certification" (or whatever applies in your country) are genuine. There is still no effective recourse by law enforcement in these cases.

This does not mean that everything is fake or bad quality, but you do not need
to take this risk in cases where real harm may occur. Most brands sell their
goods directly from their own website, which also usually gives you better
support. Do that!

Edit: I realize this PSA is probably useless on this platform as people here
are generally pretty aware about these things. But do spread this information
for more naive buyers. You really only need to get poisoned, burnt or lose
significant amounts of money once.

------
erentz
I see the Amazon fake products problem as related to the social network fake
news problem. In both cases you have a company that wants to both have it's
platform cake and eat it's publisher cake at the same time. (Sorry for the bad
spin on that phrase there.)

One important part of our solution here has to be that we force these
companies to take a position one way or the other. So in Amazon's case it
would need to decide - am I a platform for companies to set up there own
online shop and provide fulfillment services to? Or am I myself the online
shop?

In the later case they become responsible for product, like any business. In
the former, they aren't. But in the former they now need to act as just a
platform and _not provide_ all the branding that makes it look like you're
buying from Amazon. So they'd be more akin to Shopify or something I suppose.
Every fly by night shop that wants to set up needs to set up its own branding
and that way brand reliability and recognition still works and items are no
longer commingled.

~~~
tracer4201
Disclaimer: I don’t own amazon directly but do own funds where Amazon is a
significant chunk.

I don’t agree with this kind of regulation. It’s simply not the governments
role to decide. You as a seller are not forced to sell on Amazon. I say that
as the spouse of a seller who owns a store on EBay that’s continued to be
successful. We had a bad experience selling on Amazon and are better off
without them. Of course that’s just our experience but I’m not convinced
Amazon is a monopoly here.

I do think Amazon needs to be held liable for fake products and whatever
damage they cause its customers. Amazon simply selling goods with no liability
of fraudulent items is a disgrace, and I don’t think they will change until we
ram some regulation down their throat.

~~~
leetcrew
> I do think Amazon needs to be held liable for fake products and whatever
> damage they cause its customers.

what would this look like? they already have a pretty generous return policy.
they pay the return shipping and return the funds as soon as the package
ships. I'm not thrilled with the status quo of playing fraud roulette every
time I order something, but the worst thing that's ever happened to me is
having to wait a couple extra days for the genuine item.

~~~
heavyset_go
> _they already have a pretty generous return policy._

Yet there is no option to indicate that "This product is a counterfeit" when
filing a return, despite it being a documented problem. The purchaser must
choose a different, and inaccurate, reason for their return when filing for
one.

One way to read into this is that Amazon doesn't want to keep records of
counterfeit items sold on their marketplace because of the liability such
records might incur.

~~~
amylene
Another way to read it is that amazon doesn’t believe the consumer is a
reliable counterfeit detector, versus “crappy product”, etc.

~~~
heavyset_go
This can be solved with an "I believe the item I received is a counterfeit"
option alongside the "Item is defective or doesn't work" option already
present during the return process.

~~~
caro_douglos
My personal favorite was the manufacturer who purchased an item from us (a
third party merchant) who claimed it was counterfeit. This product was
originally purchased from the manufacturer and had its original sales receipt.
Amazon’s project zero uses a hammer to fix this problem by removing all
sellers (even ones that have a right to sell the item). Sometimes in rare
cases legal action is taken and they do get the real counterfeiter but from
what I saw the real problem (for the accuser) is solved because now only
amazon or only the manufacturer can sell against that listing. Hoping this
will one day change but I’m certainly not going to hold my breath.

~~~
erik_seaberg
Does Amazon know you are not a manufacturer? How do the customers benefit from
the risk of involving orgs like yours?

------
tyingq
_" Getting the fake gloves removed from Amazon can be a long process, Hirsch
said, taking weeks or even months of playing whack-a-mole with counterfeit
sellers"_

That's the brand owner saying that. I'd love to see an Amazon response to
that.

~~~
Nasrudith
Personally the brand owner makes me trust them as far as I can throw them as
they have a fundamental interest in hampering secondary markets and
undermining right of first sale. Sure there are valid concerns but it becomes
"CEOs claim higher CEO compensation main factor linked to better company
performance".

~~~
Dylan16807
There's not a big secondary market in unopened $15 gloves. And I really doubt
the used listings are a big deal. So I don't think that's a notable factor
here.

------
foxfired
Time to pack the kids in the car and drive to your local hardware store.

No, seriously. Go to your local hardware store. If the quality of your
purchase matters, then the surest way to get good quality product is to go to
the store and pick it up yourself. If for some reasons you get a fake, you can
drive back to the store and they'll be happy to replace it. You don't have to
talk to a faceless corporation.

~~~
ken
Great idea for some products, infeasible for others. I recently needed a
Firewire cable, on a day's notice, and after much searching I concluded
there's no longer any store in Seattle which sells computer components in
person, especially outside of normal business hours.

The closest I found was Fry's (Renton, 30min away), and they're doing their
darndest to go out of business. A Firewire cable in one of the few items they
have on their shelves. It's not name-brand, and if it didn't work, I'd be SOL.

------
Timothycquinn
I just watched a CBC Marketplace spot on this topic. What scared me the most
was the danger of toxic materials in fake products and especially makeup. Some
lipsticks from brand name knock offs had had mercury levels hundreds of times
higher than the maximum levels recommended by industry standards.

~~~
amdelamar
Netflix has a short documentary on this very thing. It was really eye-opening
that counterfeit makeup and cosmetics are not only bad for businesses but they
can be physically harmful to the body/face, resulting in some people being
rushed to the hospital.

The series is called Broken and the episode on cosmetics is "Makeup Mayhem"
[https://www.netflix.com/title/81002391](https://www.netflix.com/title/81002391)

------
ng12
This happened to me the first time this Christmas. Bought a $25 electric
doodad that was "sold by Amazon" for a family member and it was obviously a
fake. It came in a very generic white box with the company logo stamped on it,
inside was a product that looked completely different and was non-functional.
Not only that, but the product was difficult to return (I had to contact
support) which makes me suspect Amazon knew it was a fishy product.

It has completely shaken my faith in Amazon. This is probably my last year as
a Prime subscriber.

~~~
wombat-man
They'll actually pro-rate refund for your remaining time with prime if you
cancel. At least they did for me.

~~~
asdff
Then every time you try to make a purchase as a former prime user you will hit
failed captcha after failed captcha, and a mandatory "would you like to try
prime" window with a 'no thanks' click through in size 8 font. Sometimes I
have to use a different browser if I fail the captcha too many times and
amazon crudely attempts to lock me out.

------
lukebuehler
Gutsy for them to write such an article when they rely so much on affiliate
links. Definitely makes me respect The Wire Cutter much more.

Maybe does their article imply that as long as you purchase through their
recommended links you'd be safe(er)?

~~~
ebg13
> _Definitely makes me respect The Wire Cutter much more._

I'll probably respect them more when they stop hypocritically linking to
Amazon.

> _Maybe does their article imply that as long as you purchase through their
> recommended links you 'd be safe(er)?_

The article implies that, but it's not true.

~~~
toomuchtodo
How would you like them to pay for their writing?

~~~
ebg13
I'm saddened that you don't see any middle ground between linking to a site
with a very long history of actively facilitating counterfeits through product
commingling and not getting paid at all.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I’m sad you didn’t think I was genuinely asking for potential solutions.

~~~
ebg13
I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Only that a great deprivation has weighed
heavily on us to the point that you need to ask what possible alternatives
exist rather than knowing several already. I don't condemn _you_ personally
for it.

------
fma
Their comingle is also an issue. My last experience is I bought a new razor,
sold by Amazon.com. The box rattled which was a big red flag. Then saw a hair
inside.

Many reviews said they received a used product. I took the risk. I did a
return and said "not as described" but didn't get around to return it till 1
day too late. Did a chat and the CS said I can just throw it away, they will
refund it.

------
philshem
Nitpicking, but...

the original article title is "I Bought These Things From Amazon Prime. Can
You Tell Which Ones Are Real?".

The current HN title is "Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real?"

The current HN title would be improved by replacing "real" with "authentic".
With "real", I started the article assuming that the Ove-Glove was a
fictitious product created by a designer or artist. It took some time to
realize that "real" means "authentic".

~~~
mrweasel
It also doesn't matter that it's Amazon Prime, the Prime part has no influence
on whether or not you risk buying fakes.

------
intopieces
There's a follow on question that I'd like to raise, which is: "Are you rich
enough to care"? In the race to the bottom on prices, it becomes a mark of
wealth when you have the time and money to verify your own purchases, or to
shop at more reputable retailers. I'm in that category, but could easily see
myself being too cash strapped / too busy to do anything about a fake product
being shipped to me from Amazon. I'd probably shrug.

~~~
burlesona
I mean, kinda. But you can buy most of the stuff that you’d otherwise get on
Amazon from Costco, Target, or Walmart online, and not have to worry about it
being a crappy knock off made with leaded paint. So, I think _most_ people are
rich enough to care that much.

------
joeblau
A few weeks ago, I bought some shampoo and conditioner from Amazon. I wanted a
bulk size and the bottle looked like it was form the official manufacturer.
When I got the bottles, opened and used them, I could tell they were fake. The
consistency of the product was terrible and the smell was overly harsh. I
returned both of them and just ordered the products from the company website.
Funnily enough, the company website didn't even have the sizes that were
listed on Amazon. Over time, I've become more wary of buying household
products Amazon's website.

~~~
jschwartzi
You're lucky you didn't accidentally put that stuff on your hair or face. Back
before cosmetics and beauty supplies were regulated in the US, there would be
occasional news stories of shampoos removing hair or causing rashes. A high
school teacher showed us as an example a newspaper article from that period
about mascara making several women permanently blind.

------
fenwick67
Walmart's online store is now my go-to for most household products. Free 2-day
shipping without a subscription and the ability to actually vet their supply
chain means it's basically always better.

~~~
aidenn0
Doesn't wal-mart allow drop-shippers to list on their website?

~~~
fma
Yes, but I always click that Walmart.com as the seller. Amazon will comingle
their goods. I don't believe Walmart does that.

------
bencollier49
I feel like I can't trust anything I buy on Amazon now. For the last month
I've been buying from UK registered businesses which pay tax and which I can
trust to send me goods which aren't counterfeit and potentially dangerous.

And wow! The dark patterns they use when you try to cancel Prime are really
quite impressive!

------
viburnum
I really, really hate being a sucker so for me it's never worth it to buy from
Amazon anymore. I'll pay a few dollars more to avoid the stress.

~~~
gdulli
The good news is, it's not even necessarily true that you pay more when buying
elsewhere anymore. Amazon is coasting on that reputation but they're no longer
subsidizing customers like they used to.

~~~
viburnum
Haha, thanks, that makes me feel better!

------
chrisseaton
Why is buying them with a Prime subscription relevant to the story?

~~~
Marsymars
Because the average Amazon buyer sees "eligible for Prime" as an Amazon-backed
indicator of quality.

~~~
chrisseaton
It’s a delivery flag, never was a quality flag.

~~~
derekp7
I've always taken it as a proxy for quality. My thinking was that Prime means
it must ship from Amazon (I realize now marketplace sellers can qualify for
the Prime flag if their shipment is free and fast for Prime members). And then
it follows that shipped by Amazon means they stock it, and are responsible for
returns. Therefore, not wanting the expense of excessive returns, they would
probably have a system to ensure quality merchandise.

Of course, none of that thinking is accurate, but it appears to be logical on
the surface.

------
throwaway8291
Anecdata: A guy bought a small usb fan for his laptop, inserted it and bricked
this laptop. Not worth the 50% discount in any way.

As other comments mentioned, we are entering a hyperfake decade - and we are
only at the beginning. I am virtually certain, we will exit this decade with a
profound experience of more and more private universes (which may deteriorate
what is left of civil societies even more).

------
ilamont
Amazon third-party sales have been steadily rising for the past decade and now
account for more than 50% of product sales on Amazon. More than 70% of
searches on Amazon are for non-branded merchandise.

Unless these trends reverse, or there is a massive rise in the number of
complaints from customers who've been cheated or injured by fakes, there won't
be any significant changes.

------
poulsbohemian
You could tell by looking at the two gloves in the story that they were
different, but the "fake" actually looked better to my eyes - the blue rubber
appeared thicker and more pronounced. Which brings up a really interesting
question about fakes - if they are as good or better than the products they
are mocking, are they actually "fakes"? I fully recognize that there is a need
to protect copyright / product dress / brand and that there is a distinct
consumer interest in ensuring that products are safe / made from safe
materials, BUT - so many of the products that are cloned on Amazon are only
distinguishable by price anyway, and have no unique value proposition from one
"brand" to the next.

~~~
Symbiote
"The fake glove’s painted-on lines gave off a melted-plastic smell when we
used it to hold a heated cast-iron pan for 10 seconds."

------
kart23
I would pay a good premium for an amazon like platform but with guaranteed
good, premium products.

------
mortenjorck
This is an excellent piece, but the writer is also working on the assumption
that an item marked "ships from and sold by Amazon" is a reliable control
group versus a third-party seller.

As many know, Amazon's practice of commingling inventory in its Fulfilled by
Amazon program can just as easily result in a fake being sold by Amazon as
from a third-party seller. The author got lucky and didn't get any fakes in
the control group (though one might not rule out the possibility of a more
sophisticated counterfeit!), but it will continue to be a risk so long as
Amazon continues commingling in FBA.

------
ck2
Note that Amazon themselves (as the seller) will sometimes grey-market source
items if they don't/can't cut a good deal with the manufacturer.

They admit this. Which means buying from them directly is no guarantee.

~~~
Scoundreller
I can't blame them. Some manufacturers are very stuck on manufacturer-approved
retailers to keep prices high, but ostensibly for any other reason.

Should be unlawful imo.

------
madoublet
I am at the point where I never purchase from a third party seller unless I
verify that seller independently from their own website (e.g. Anker). I treat
everything sold by a third party seller as a scam.

------
mschuster91
For the products that are actually regulated like the child support seats:
_hold Amazon liable for selling product that is illegal_.

Make it expensive for Amazon to not police the shit that third parties are
throwing on the marketplace - and soon you won't see any fakes any more.

You want to know where Bezos got his billions? Partially because Amazon
outright _shits_ on all the regulation that traditional brick and mortar
places have - like, not selling product that is illegal, counterfeit or
offensive.

~~~
gowld
> offensive

Ugh.

~~~
mschuster91
Let's assume a brick-and-mortar store where in the inventory there is Nazi
propaganda such as the Reichskriegsflagge (commonly used as a substitute for
the Swastika flag which is banned in many countries). No sane person would put
this item up for sale because the same second it became public knowledge the
store sells such flags it would be _swarmed_ by protesters, and most likely
would also attract a lot of vandals, thieves and other more radical
protesters.

But on Amazon? There is no such thing as a public space to protest here, there
is no _cost_ (not even from lost business) in selling Nazi merchandise, so
Amazon happily sells Nazi merchandise that Nazis then fly on their balconies
and gardens, thus incurring a cost to society.

------
jtms
I never in a million years thought I’d be suggesting this, but Walmart.com
offers a similar level of convenience and I’d wager you’re far less likely to
receive fake stuff

~~~
Answerawake
I disagree, this is an anecdote but I ordered a bag of coffee from their "Ship
to Store" option. When it came time to go to the store to pick it up, I was
waiting about an hour to receive my item. Their setup is very good. You walk
into the special "pick up" area of the store, then check in. From there
someone is supposed to go to the back and fetch your item. That person was
nowhere to be found. After alerting the manager that person eventually showed
up and then proceeded to look around for the item. They then decided to call
in a colleague who then took even longer to find the item. Turns out it was in
a box right in front of them. All in all I wasted an hour trying to get a
small bag of coffee. I'm gonna try again because I want this thing to be
successful but man was it "nails on chalkboard" experience.

------
WalterBright
This is what private companies like Underwriters Laboratories are for. They
provide independent review and certification of products.

Such a company can make a deal with Amazon that if they certify a product,
then that product can get a badge on Amazon's product page that it is
certified by that company. Like UL, the company would be incentivized not to
abuse its badges, because otherwise the badges and the company would be come
worthless.

------
strangeloops85
When you're buying for your kids, particularly in the newborn -> infant ->
toddler range, Amazon is a nightmare and we're steering clear of it.
Especially since pretty much everything will end up in the kid's mouth. I even
ordered formula a couple of times, figuring it was regulated, but something
seemed off in the packaging and consistency.. had to throw them away. Just
completely unacceptable! Brick and mortar it is.

------
humaniania
I canceled my Prime membership this week. I can't support how Amazon is
undercutting the good union jobs of UPS, FedEx and the Postal Service.

------
balola
If e-commerce in China is any indication, platforms only lead to the supreme
status of predatory marketing. Those who spend the most on marketing win, in
this process, marketers of garbage goods get stable revenue, platforms reap
most profits.

It's destined to be a vicious cycle. The only losers will be consumers and
honest producers.

------
DaveSapien
I got stung buying some midrange earphones. I got my money back no problem,
but the hassle was far from worth the $10 saving. When the prices of the fake
items aren't obviously too cheap, its impossible to tell the difference until
its too late.

That said, I left a review warning other customers. I hope I helped them.

------
skizm
Just add Twitter certified check marks to third party sellers. Have official
amazon quality control for those sellers and everyone else is a gamble. If I
buy from the Nike seller with the blue check mark, I know I’m getting the real
thing. Seems like that could work.

~~~
miked85
As long as Amazon continues to co-mingle products, that wouldn't matter.

------
rogerdonut
> You can probably tell at a glance that a “Chanel” handbag going for $20 at a
> flea market is fake

Amazon sells these exact items with Prime as well.

> Although Amazon has taken many measures to prevent counterfeits and unsafe
> products from showing up on its site, plenty of fakes still slip through.

I don't believe this one bit. There are blatant fakes being shipped through
Prime. They're not flying under the radar or bait and switching. Go on Amazon
and search "Yuangu belt" \-- you will quickly find Gucci & Hermes fakes being
shipped through Prime. Are you telling me their "counterfeit measures" could
not detect this before allowing it to be sold with Prime?

------
burlesona
I’ve been a Prime customer since it first came out in the early 2000’s, but
I’m letting my subscription expire this year. Too much fake crap, and
increasingly it’s hard to even find stuff that I’m looking for in the store.
No thanks.

------
tinyhouse
I have a simple solution that seems to work very well for me. If there are
negative reviews I usually try to read a few to see if there is a red flag.
For the positive reviews I check the dates distribution. Many products have
only 5 star reviews but when you check you see they are all from the last two
months. If I don't see old positive reviews then I skip the item unless it's a
brand I'm familiar with. Finally, if everything looks good I check the
seller(s) rating. Then buy from the best one. (For 3rd party sellers)

The idea is that it's hard to keep a fake high rated reviews for a long time.

------
throwaway122378
Should Amazon be held liable for fake products sold on their platform the same
was Facebook should be liable for fake news published on theirs?

~~~
rasz
You dont directly pay for reading fb posts. fb posts never burned anybodys
house down.

------
ryandetzel
Ive tried to buy direct from the manufacture four times in the last two
months, every single time it was more expensive than buying from amazon and
these are things that are not easily faked so I'm sure they legit. One of them
I contacted the manufacture to see if they would at least match the $20
difference on amazon and they said just to order it from amazon. Wtf.

~~~
asdff
It depends on the products. Old school department store brands will have an
inflated price on their site compared to amazon, but I usually find name brand
electronics to be no cheaper on amazon than other sites, or even the
manufacturer directly.

------
Avamander
Amazon really needs a social review feature, I want to trust only my close
circle of friends with vouching for a product or not.

------
101008
Sorry if this is offtopic, I was planning to buy a Google Pixel 3A from Amazon
in a week (It's cheaper than from Google Store). Are mobile phones also
forgered on Amazon? or they don't aim to forger stuff like that? Thank you. (I
am from a 3rd world country and travelling to USA next week)

~~~
richardxia
I would be a little bit careful. I don't know if there's a risk of
counterfeiting, but I once bought what I thought was supposed to be a US
region Moto X2 but instead got a European region one. The most important
difference, besides getting a different power adapter, was the fact that
there's actually a different wireless antennae chip, where it did not have LTE
bands for my carrier in the US.

~~~
101008
Thanks! Yes, I checked that using
[https://willmyphonework.net/](https://willmyphonework.net/) and it says it
will work :) I used in the past (it's pretty normal to buy phones when
travelling to Europe or US) and it never failed. Bythe way, Amazon seller is
Google, it says "By Google", so I should trust it, right?

------
axaxs
Amazon is a total landfill these days. As much as I hate to admit it as such,
my wife does reviews for 'free' products, often paying in addition. I could
write a novel on how this system works, but in short I'll say, reviews are
completely useless.

------
RIMR
#3 seems like a reach, given that the generic YXTDZ device wasn't
impersonating the name-brand Mifold device. It's clearly a cheap generic
version, not a counterfeit.

------
anigbrowl
I gave up 1/2 way through because the photos were too small and low quality to
even attempt a determination. Worthy topic, poor exploration.

------
StreamBright
Amazon became the first statistical store. You get what you want with a
certain confidence interval.

------
overcast
How do fake reviews get past order verification? Or is that tag complete
bullshit?

~~~
gowld
Do the math: product price times number of reviews equals cost of fake
reviews.

~~~
overcast
Makes sense for cheap stuff, but I've seen fairly valuable items get rated
horribly on fake spot.

------
president
Does anyone know if/why it is legal for China to be producing and selling
these blatantly knock-off products? It seems outrageous that they are able to
sell a product with the same EXACT name (the 'Ove' Glove example in the link)
as the copied product.

~~~
gowld
What are you going to do, file a complaint with the WTO?

~~~
president
I would assume there are some tools the US can use to combat the problem?

------
microdrum
Unpopular / true opinion: even more Trumpian tariffs on China will help fix
this problem.

~~~
sky_rw
More unpopular / true opinion: Coronavirus will probably fix this problem.

------
KaoruAoiShiho
Is it not possible to look at the seller to tell if it's the real company
selling the product? I wouldn't buy branded from some no-name seller, that's
no better than ebay.

~~~
matsemann
If multiple sellers sell the "same" item and use amazon as warehouse, they can
be binned together and you get one at random from any one of the sellers no
matter which one you actually bought from.

~~~
checkdigit15
Yup, they call it "commingling". So even if you make sure it says "sold by and
ships from Amazon", and Amazon itself only buys from legitimate vendors, you
could still wind up with a counterfeit item introduced by a third party
seller.

------
edoo
All it would take is a unique crypto signature QR code on each product that
lets you look it up and see how many other people looked up the same QR code.

------
mindslight
The switcheroo problem described in the article simply _does not exist_ say
over on Ebay. On Ebay, you directly know if you are buying from a legitimate
distributor, small time grey market / surplus dealer, or a knockoff shop.
There _are_ plenty of products for which knockoffs/generics are good enough,
so simplistically "banning fakes" is not the solution either. The problem is
this obscuring of the actual supplier, which Amazon could fix tomorrow if
their entire business didn't revolve around using that confusing UI to mislead
customers with dark patterns.

I'm continually amazed at the popularity of Amazon. It goes to show how
powerful advertising, social distortion, and the sunk cost fallacy ("prime")
are. For example, Amazon has _never_ had good prices on _anything_ , and yet
that myth persists. Presumably the same people that repeat this can't even be
bothered to just check eg _walmart.com_. (Walmart does find some new way to
disappoint me every time I step in there. It's just so utterly huge that it's
foolish to ignore.)

~~~
greenyoda
> On Ebay, you directly know if you are buying from a legitimate distributor,
> small time grey market / surplus dealer, or a knockoff shop.

Would you mind explaining how you can figure this out? (I've never bought
anything on Ebay, so I'm completely ignorant about how it works.)

~~~
mindslight
From the combination of store name, item description/template, quantity, other
items by the seller, and comparable items. These things are up front and in
your face, with each seller having a vested interest in creating a reputation.
Once you see the patterns, you don't have to "investigate" each thing, you
just get a feeling.

Legitimate distributors generally have recognizable names and other web
presences - Best Buy, Adorama, Beach Camera, Anker Direct, Rosewill, etc. The
value here is being able to search prices across all these stores at once.

Surplus distributors usually have conditions Open Box / Seller Refurbished,
fixed quantities, many such listings.

Knockoffs/generics either ship direct from China, or have basically identical
listings that ship directly from China.

This of course all depends on what you're actually buying, but being able to
weigh such details is the whole point. Many generic computer
cables/adapters/etc are great, but you'd be foolish to buy lithium ion
batteries that way.

Specifically searching for "Ove Glove", I do see an item that is direct from
China. So right away I know this is an item that has been heavily copied.
Which is a given, with this article. But knowing this means I can either opt
for the cheaper generic version (and self-verify it has similar utility), or
be extra sure to order it from a legitimate channel.

~~~
greenyoda
Thanks, that was very helpful. I'll check out eBay the next time I need to
shop for something.

