
Illegal Production and Use of Banned CFC-11 in China's Foam Blowing Industry - comex
https://eia-global.org/reports/20180709-blowing-it-illegal-production-and-use-of-banned-cfc-11-in-chinas-foam-blowing-industry
======
wiradikusuma
This kind of "on purpose" behavior is making me very upset. I keep thinking
that there should be some kind of mechanism for the perpetrators to have a
feel of their own medicine.

Like every time a vehicle in front of me releasing thick black smoke from
tailpipe, I feel like it must be required by law for them to channel some of
the smoke to go inside their own vehicle, so they know, "Oh, apparently it
doesn't smell nice and it can kill me, I should send my car to workshop so I
don't hurt others."

Smokers already feel this. In many buildings, when they want to smoke, they
must go to some room with other smokers. Although, I still don't understand
why they still keep smoking. At least, they can only hurt themselves.

~~~
s73v3r_
Agreed. "Rolling Coal" should be treated as a violent assault on others,
especially cyclists, that I should be able to defend myself against like any
other assault.

~~~
ouid
This seems like a question that has to be left up to the courts, somehow.

------
contingencies
No doubt this publication will result in a crackdown. Good job EIA. Background
on EIA @
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Investigation_Ag...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Investigation_Agency)

~~~
raverbashing
The question is what kind of pressure will China respond to

~~~
constantlm
It seems like China is going in the right direction with regards to enforcing
environmental standards, so I have no reason to think that this won't result
in crackdowns from government.

~~~
whatcanthisbee
I sure hope so. But China's wasting its energy on:

\- cracking down dissidents (no election - no real 'authority', officials
don't have any incentives to listen to "the people"^TM)

\- handling local politics (again, no election - same PRC ppl)

\- deporting N.Korean refugees back to N.Korea (continuing just because Chinas
has been doing so - just like PRC praising Mao for Cultural Revolution that
killed millions)

------
blondie9x
This explains the mysterious increased measure of atmospheric CFCs. Hopefully
this will help stabilize ozone hole again. Can't believe that China would
allow this given all they have to lose. Causing further damage to the ozone
will intensify other environmental issues the country and planet experience.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
China doesn’t have as strong a government as many people would think. A lot of
enterprising individuals and even local governments will do whatever they can
get away with to make a few more yuan. They’ll only stop when the central
government gets serious and cracks down.

But the same could be said for any hyper capitalistic society without rule of
law or strong regulatory enforcement. That just happens to mainly be China
right now, but could also be the USA in the future if the EPA is dismantled
and Trumpism reigns.

~~~
HillaryBriss
Given the tremendous quantity of illegal explosives and fiery flying
projectiles (fireworks and skyrockets) discharged in suburban streets over the
last week in my fire-prone, drought challenged US city, one might conclude
that the US doesn't have a very strong government either.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Chinese New Year in Beijing a few years ago was like a war zone during the
Gulf war (actualky probably much worse). It’s gotten better recently, but I’m
sure even minor fireworks during CNY in a rural area blows anything in the USA
completely away.

------
hourislate
Demilic, BASF, Lapolla, etc have all phased out CFC-11 in their Open and
Closed Cell Foams since around 2009. It's not surprising that the Chinese
still use the old style spray foam. It was less costly to produce, had better
cell structure and a better rise from what I remember. But not so good for the
environment.

The only positive is where ever they use it as insulation, will reduce energy
needs to heat or cool the structure.

------
Fnoord
For reference, trichlorofluoromethane (also called freon-11, CFC-11, or R-11)
[1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichlorofluoromethane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichlorofluoromethane)

------
magicbuzz
See
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Dome_(film)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Dome_\(film\))
for China’s inability to regulate their out of control pollution.

~~~
whatcanthisbee
> By the end of March 1st, 2015, all reports and reviews about the documentary
> Under the Dome were withdrawn from online websites

> The reason of banning was said to be the pressure of public perception of
> smog and the fear of collective action of the people

it's not 'inability to regulate', but reluctant to regulate. Just make those
environmental groups shut up.

------
bArray
This is the problem with growing an economy at any cost.

~~~
jopsen
If you read the guardian on the subject:
[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/09/mysterio...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/09/mysterious-
source-of-illegal-ozone-killing-emissions-revealed-say-investigators)

It seems to me like there is laws against this, there are inspectors, but
local corruption and small fines is making it ineffective.

Of the numbers at the end of the article are just somewhat correct, we're
talking about maybe 10 factories (give or take). So this is certainly
something that can be fixed.

At it's so far clear that the government is not condoning this behavior.

~~~
exelius
China has realized that given their population, climate change will
disproportionately affect them. So the government has good reason to actually
enforce environmental laws; they’re just too big to do it effectively.

~~~
bArray
>China has realized that given their population, climate change will
disproportionately affect them.

Not entirely sure about this, time and time again there seems to be a
disconnect between what China says and what China does.

>So the government has good reason to actually enforce environmental laws;
they’re just too big to do it effectively.

When they want to, they are capable of blocking the entire internet,
monitoring all residents, manipulating global raw materials. Why else run a
dictatorship?

~~~
vkou
From speaking with people who have lived in China, the environment is a huge
concern for the people living there. Unlike in the US, there is a very clear
expectation that it's the government is both capable of, and is responsible
for dealing with it.

Chinese people aren't some mindless propagandized drones. They have the same
capacity of looking out the window as you or I.

~~~
bArray
You misunderstand me. I'm not calling them idiots, the average person is
probably fully aware that all of this environmental damage turned the sky
yellow and made it hotter.

The people making the foam 100% know it's illegal (as they demonstrated) and
why it's illegal - yet they still do it. The money is more important to them
than the ethics.

Besides, if the Chinese government and the Chinese people didn't think
differently, all of this censoring and covering up wouldn't be needed.

~~~
vkou
> The money is more important to them than the ethics.

This is a problem in every country. There's nothing unique about China in that
respect. Unethical people will tend behave unethically when money is on the
line.

Maybe the cover-ups are done in order to save face, or because some particular
agent in the department responsible is getting kickbacks. The CCP as a whole
does benefits from the first, not the second.

------
dang
Another article at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17488344](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17488344).

~~~
breakingcups
That article has the title "Mysterious source of illegal ozone-killing
emissions revealed, say investigators", which is an interesting angle that I
didn't get from this article. I'm glad I read both.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Yeah I read the context a while ago (about there being a new source of CFCs
around but nobody knew where from, yet).

------
amelius
Is this an instance where evidence can be collected by the relatively new EU
Sentinel-5P satellite?

[1] [http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/13/environmental-
satellite-r...](http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/13/environmental-satellite-
ready-for-blast-off)

~~~
JorgeGT
As far as I know no CFC products are being proposed for Sentinel-5p
([http://www.tropomi.eu/data-
products/level-2-products](http://www.tropomi.eu/data-
products/level-2-products)) but it will certainly report ozone levels and
profiles. In the original Nature paper reporting the detection of unreported
CFC production, they used flask samples and numerical back-trajectory methods:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0106-2](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0106-2)

------
jonker
The Chinese firms told the EIA they will continue to use CFC-11 because it’s
"superior chemical for foams in house construction." The EIA estimates China’s
CFC emissions exceed 2,645 million cubic pounds since 2004. I guess the 1989
CFC treaty they signed was a joke.

China also produces radioactive sludge from rare earth mines and grows world
trade food crops not even 1/2 mile away.

Photos [https://imgur.com/a/lsVb6X0](https://imgur.com/a/lsVb6X0)

When you constantly pollute at the cost of everyone's health your culture is
literally toxic. As a Chinese-American I'm sad to say I'm disgusted by the
"worlds oldest civilization."

------
hammock
Enjoy your Nectar foam mattress made in China!

------
diogenescynic
We need to boycott China. Their environmental negligence is going to harm
generations to come. This is just selfish and short sighted.

------
ttsda
Of course it was China.

~~~
dang
Could you please not post unsubstantive comments here? Especially not
nationalistically divisive ones.

~~~
ttsda
Im sorry, it wasn't meant as such.

