
The new MacBook Pro is kind of great for hackers - ageitgey
https://medium.com/@ageitgey/the-new-macbook-pro-is-kind-of-great-for-hackers-64c1c577a4d2
======
Yabood
I returned my MacBook Pro 15' earlier today. Here's why:

* Graphics card glitches - I paid close to 4K so I don't have to deal with quality control issues.

* Touchpad is just too large. I found myself resting my palm on it all the time, and sometimes (clicking) without realizing it. Also, if you like lying down and working (which I do sometimes because of a lower back problem) the size of the touchpad will make you work extra hard to avoid accidental clicks.

* Had the machine for ~ 10 days, used the touch bar less than that. Definitely not worth the money. Hopefully in the future, they'll have the 15' option without it.

* The bootcamp experience just sucks (this was my primary reason for returning it). Currently, there's no way to gracefully switch between discreet and integrated gpu, so the battery life is terrible, like two-and-a-half-hour maximum battery life terrible. gpu-switch doesn't work either. In fact, if you use gpu-switch you'll have to rebuild both macOS and Windows as the machine will just hang when you try to boot into either.

* Recovery mode has many issues with network connectivity. A few times, I had to tether/connect to my iPhone hotspot for it to go through.

* Sharp edges everywhere.

The specs are very underwhelming too, but I was willing to tolerate lower
specs for higher build quality. I actually just picked up an XPS 15 9550 from
Microcenter. Got the 2.6Ghz, 16GB (expandable to 32GB), 512GB SSD, 4K
touchscreen for $1350 (an open box, new for $1499).

~~~
wyclif
What is an ideal Linux distro for programmers using the XPS 15?

~~~
znpy
Ubuntu/Xubuntu

~~~
wyclif
I checked, but I couldn't find out if Dell still has that Sputnik programme
they did a few years back, where you could order one of these with Ubuntu LTS
preinstalled. I'm wondering if everything "just works" yet.

~~~
shock
They do indeed still have the Sputnik program running. Barton George (from
Dell) still updates his blog[0] with status info[1].

[0] - [https://bartongeorge.io/](https://bartongeorge.io/)

[1] - [https://bartongeorge.io/2016/10/04/the-new-
xps-13-developer-...](https://bartongeorge.io/2016/10/04/the-new-
xps-13-developer-edition-lands-in-europe-and-united-states/)

------
ce4
USB-C charging looks great on paper but disappoints when devices don't charge.

Your device may support a subset of the different USB charging protocols:

    
    
        * USB 1.1 lo power: 5V/100mA
        * USB 2.0 hi power: 5V/500mA
        * USB 3.0: 5V/900mA
        * USB BC (battery charging): 5V/1.5A
        * USB quickcharge 1.0/2.0/3.0, proprietary Qualcomm standard
        * USB PD (power delivery) 5 profiles offering up to 100W (5/12/20V @ 1.5/2/3/5A)
    

MacBooks also use a nonstandard 15V USB-PD profile.

Unrelated to the MacBook, but problems i see with USB-C are:

Chargers may offer cryptographic signatures in the future for authentication
against a whitelist at the device.

Second and most problematic: The MacBook is a good citizen here, but many
laptops (HP business series, Dell XPS series) only support USB-C PD with
profile 4&5 (20V/3A+). This rules out the car dongle as well as cheap USB
power banks.

The connector is always the same, the customer cannot deduce charger/device
compatibility. The experience will suck.

Edit: typos/formatting

~~~
cletus
Wow, that's more horrible than I thought. Thanks for the summary.

I am honestly befuddled by USB-C. The allure of a universal connector? That's
kinda pointless when the cables look mostly the same but support different
feature subsets. It's insanity.

It's bad enough that many manufacturers (I'm looking at you, Dell) don't
differentiate between USB 2 and 3 Type A. C is so much worse for this.

Instead of a pretty good $1200 13" Air we have a $1800+ cersion that's lost
features (MagSafe, worse keyboard) to be a hair thinner that also requires
$200 in dongles to connect to anything.

Seriously, fuck you, Apple.

~~~
gambiting
I don't know why you are getting downvoted(I guess it's the fuck you at the
end), but I absolutely agree - if a cable fits in a port, it should just work.
Anything else is horrible design that's user hostile. Apple sells an LG USB-C
display, and if you use the USB-C cable bundled with the MacBook Pro, it
doesn't work. And you don't get an error message - it just doesn't work.

Some companies, for example Nintendo, figured this out a long time ago. Notice
how with their consoles, if the disc/cartridge fits in the console, the
console will always play it, even between generations. The customer shouldn't
have to research arcane names and study symbols on cables - if it fits, it
should just work. And USB-C is just a mess at the moment.

~~~
comex
> Notice how with their consoles, if the disc/cartridge fits in the console,
> the console will always play it, even between generations.

Well, that's not quite true. Both the Wii and Wii U have a standard-sized disc
slot; on the Wii you can insert small GameCube discs into that slot and
they'll play, but on the Wii U they won't. On the portable side, 3DS
cartridges do have a tab to prevent them from fitting into a DS, but that
wasn't the case for the handful of games exclusive to the brief-lived DSi.

Recent Nintendo consoles have also had compatibility issues with standard
storage devices. The Wii supported SD cards, but wasn't compatible with SDHC
cards, which are almost all cards with a capacity of 4GB or higher. This was
eventually rectified with a software update... but the update only applied to
the system menu, not to games which could access SD cards themselves,
including notably Super Smash Bros. Brawl. The Wii U, for its part, supports
storing games on external hard drives, but doesn't provide as much power over
USB as most hosts do, requiring the use of a USB Y cable and a separate USB
power source even for drives that don't normally require external power.

------
sklivvz1971
No, sorry, the new MacBook pro sucks for hackers. It's great for prosumers who
like gadgets and benefit from USB-C. Hackers do not benefit from a closed box
with non-expandable performance.

I get it that prosumers like to think of themselves as "hackers", but
...that's just not how it works. Come on.

~~~
milkytron
In my own (possibly and probably inaccurate) opinion, I feel as though
"hackers" aren't the people who need professional gear to do professional (or
daily) tasks. They're the ones who can make the most out of as little
equipment as possible.

"See that toaster over there? It's been reprogrammed to automatically deposit
my cat's food every fourth hour and have it warm as well."

"That 2009 dinosaur of a smartphone sitting in the corner? It's an IP
surveillance camera."

"That first generation Xbox, it's powering the zoom feature of the Hubble
Telescope."

That last one might have been a bit of an exaggeration, but my point is that
something isn't great because it's the latest. Something is great because
someone increased it's value after using it or created something of higher
value than the equipment used to create it.

> Hackers do not benefit from a closed box with non-expandable performance.

To address this point... some might. But not all will. And I certainly think
that fewer will than the generations before. I really hope USB-C will be as
great as these companies say it will, but until then I'll happily use my
different ports that work as they are expected to.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
All professionals need professional gear to do professional work. That's kind
of the definition of a professional - someone who can afford the right tools,
and knows how to use them to get a job done quickly and competently.

Turning a toaster into a cat feeder is tinkering, not professional hacking.
There's nothing wrong with tinkering. But it's the difference between wiring
up a Raspberry Pi as a heating controller, and building a company that sells
fully licensed and certified heating controllers all over the world with
support infrastructure.

One is hobby project, the other... isn't.

A useful definition of a professional tool is one that lets you forget you're
using it because it's so transparently intuitive you never have to think about
its needs.

I don't think the 2016 MBP does that. The ports are (literally) a side issue.
The problem is more that Apple are thoughtlessly losing their reputation among
professionals, because Cook, Schiller and co don't seem to be thinking hard
enough what they're doing, and don't appear to have an understanding of what
their professional customers are looking for.

...Which is not something super-thin for the sake of it, or with a gimmicky
touch bar. It's something expandable with ports that "just work", no physical
or metaphorical rough edges, with the option to have decent memory (i.e. 32GB)
and a reasonable processor speed bump.

This shouldn't be hard or controversial, but for some reason it seems to be
beyond Apple's understanding.

I'm hardly a hater. I bought the 12.9" iPad Pro last week, and I'm loving it.
But the laptop format is challenging because you either stay conservative, or
you go full experimental with (say) a dual-display clamshell. or even a touch
panel instead of the trackpad.

Half-hearted innovations like the touch bar glued onto an ungenerous spec look
like gimmicks for the sake of it, not serious attempts to improve professional
productivity.

~~~
nicky0
I still don't understand this seemingly rigid idea of what a "pro" needs in a
computer. (High performance, who cares about the battery life or form factor.)
Surely it depends what your line of work is.

~~~
tracker1
I'm a programmer, mostly web based apps and related servers. For my usage, I
_need_ an SSD (~512gb) and a recent cpu with 16gb+ ram. The touchpad has been
what kept me on the mbp... Looking at the Razer Blade Pro, love the keyboard
layout, but its totally overkill for my needs.

An integrated gpu, with a higher end i5, with a big ssd and lots of ram for
half the price would be more appealing to me.. even bringing a lower rez
screen would be okay for my needs... love the for factor though.

Everyone has different needs, as you said.

~~~
bardworx
> I need an SSD (~512gb) and a recent cpu with 16gb+ ram.

Can you expand on that? I've seen this with folks in the movie/production
industry but for webdev it seems like that's more of a want.

What's your daily task load, where integrated GPU and 32GB of ram are tasked?

~~~
tracker1
I didn't say an integrated gpu and 32gb are taxed... I said I needed an SSD
greater than 256gb (512), and at least 16gb of ram. However, in many corp
environments if you need those, you get a hefty machine.

If it's being taxed, it's probably because some idiot spec'd an HDD that pulls
resources too slowly For modern JS dev, you _really_ need an SSD more than
anything else. Mainly because the build/watch process is tracking many
thousands of small files which is significantly worse on hdd. 60+ seconds vs.
under a second for any change to take effect in the browser. This can be as
much as an hour a day wasted. The 5 hours of wasted time in a few weeks are
more costly than the upgrade to ssd.

\-- edit

As to 512gb, it's because after all the software, that can take 100gb...
creative assets well over that depending on the projects... it's easy to hit
240gb between the OS, software, projects, and assets.

Beyond that, show me off-the shelf hardware that can be configured with 16+gb
ram and a 512gb SSD that doesn't have the other stuff I don't _need_?

------
carsongross
After a week with a 13 inch, what I've mainly noticed is how physically
unwelcoming it is:

The edges are very sharp, and the air vents on the bottom are right where you
grab the laptop to pick it up, which gives it a knife-like feel. Also, by
expanding the track pad far beyond it's useful size, there is now no gap
between it and the space key. I have discovered that I have a habit of resting
my thumb just below the space bar and now I tend to bump the pointer on
accident now. The arrow keys are now a continuous run of keys with no way to
orient quickly like previously (where the side arrows were slightly smaller
and made it obvious where the up key was without looking.) . Finally, the
keyboard action is very short, as you would expect with such a thin laptop.

I do most of my work with an external keyboard and monitor, so it isn't that
big a deal to me, but I can see it being hard on people who use their laptop
exclusively.

~~~
enraged_camel
>>The edges are very sharp

Just curious, have you used Mac laptops previously? Because sharp edges are
something that have existed since the original MacBook Air.

I do agree they are annoying though. I always have outlines on my wrists after
using my laptop on my lap for a while.

~~~
carsongross
Yes, I have the 2014 version of the 13 inch macbook pro. The increased
sharpness is very noticable to me, particularly where the underside vents are
now placed, creating that knife-like feel when you pick it up.

------
spacehacker
I am disappointed by the Touch Bar. It is such a small and dim screen and a
lot of attention is required for interacting with it. There is no tactile
feedback, so touch typing is impossible. QuickType and Emojis are useless for
me. It might be a good accessibility feature, but QuickType is much too slow
and the upward movement of the entire hand/arm interrupts the flow of typing.
I think the Touch Bar is great for designers who can benefit from a 'general
purpose touch/slider input device' (e.g. for color mixing, navigating
timelines, parameter fine-tuning). It might also reduce cognitive load a bit
since it reduces the need for memorizing keyboard shortcuts. On the other
hand, users who are blessed with a good memory will probably not benefit very
much in that regard because pressing a key combination is much quicker than
scanning and touching the Touch Bar.

The only attractive feature of the Touch Bar model really is Touch ID. If
Apple would sell the Function Keys model with a Touch ID power button and one
more USB port, I would happily buy it. But right now, I am a little bit
confused and baffled by Apple's new MacBook Pro product line. I think I am
going to wait another generation to see whether Apple gets back on track and
whether the Touch Bar can stand the test of time.

~~~
hjnilsson
The function keys were never used for anything in OSX, as the "culture" is to
use key chords instead. So even if it's not used much, I think it's an
improvement.

~~~
spacehacker
I use the function keys a lot for changing volume, screen/keyboard brightness,
pausing/playing music. I also launch Terminal and Firefox to F3 and F4, I
heavily make use of ESC for all kinds of things (VIM, closing UI dialogs) and
I occasionally use the function keys for some shortcuts such as finding the
next occurrence with F3 in Foxit Reader, F10 to compile, F7 to show the
desktop, F6 to switch between Karabiner profiles. For me it would be quite a
loss.

------
jrheard
I bought a new 13" MBP with touchbar and I'm returning it on Monday. I don't
like the keyboard and I _really_ don't like the touch bar, and I seem to only
get about 3 hours of battery life. I'm going to stick with my early 2014
MacBook Air until Apple figures their stuff out.

~~~
ggregoire
Is the keyboard like the one on the Macbook? I tried it once in an Apple Store
and didn't like it either. It feels weird to not really press the keys.

~~~
greglindahl
It took me a couple of days to get used to the Macbook keyboard. I had a
similar transition time the last time Apple made a major change in their
keyboards.

I'm kind of astonished at how many people turn their noses up at different
things based on a first impression, even in groups that you might consider
early adopters of tech.

~~~
falcolas
> It took me a couple of days to get used to the Macbook keyboard

To be (un)fair, you can get used to a rock in your shoe as well. That doesn't
mean you should.

Having to "get used" to a keyboard to return to your previous typing ability
seems to be a contra-indicator of the new Macs having a good keyboard.

~~~
greglindahl
That's reading a lot into my words. I was happy to "get used" to the new
keyboard because I thought it was awesome that my laptop had become thinner
and lighter... two things that I value more than having a keyboard that might
be slightly better.

~~~
falcolas
Thinner and lighter only matter when carrying it around. Keyboards matter when
you're using the computer. Most folks who use their computer 8 hours or more a
day that I know tend to do more with the keyboard than they ever do lugging it
around. So the keyboard really matters, even in small increments.

I'm also going to make what I think is a reasonable assumption and say that a
vast majority of folks are going to carry their laptops around in bags. In
which case, the 7 ounces saved (for reference sake, this is about the same
weight as a 45 watt power brick, minus the extension cord) is nearly
meaningless, and the half inch on each dimension will be completely
meaningless.

~~~
rayiner
If that were true, 13" wouldn't be the most popular laptop size.

~~~
falcolas
The difference between 13" and 15" for size and weight is much greater than
the size and weight savings afforded by the new keyboard. Also, both the 13"
and 15" MacBook Pros have the same keyboard.

On a side note, I think that a 13" monitor hits a sweet spot. It fits in a lot
of bags, has just enough screen size to be productive without requiring an
external monitor, and the performance difference between 13" and 15" computers
is usually quite small (if it exists at all).

~~~
rayiner
> The difference between 13" and 15" for size and weight is much greater than
> the size and weight savings afforded by the new keyboard. Also, both the 13"
> and 15" MacBook Pros have the same keyboard.

It's a cumulative process. My first Macbook was a white 13.3" polycarb core 2
duo. The new 15" MBP is a pound lighter, almost half as thick, and only half
an inch deeper and an inch wider. Samsung has a 15" laptop that's under 3
pounds, making it very palatable even for people used to a 13"-er.

At what point along that evolution should Apple have stopped striving to get
smaller?

------
lucideer
This entire article is raving about a single, relatively small but important
detail that Apple has been notoriously hostile towards and worst at up until
now: cross-manufacturer port compatibility. So hostile that they went out of
their way to find ridiculous loopholes in their compliance with the EU's
Common EPS Memorandum of Understanding on USB-B.

Yes, it's a great feature, but giving Apple so much credit for introducing it
is the ultimate irony.

~~~
scott_karana
> ridiculous loopholes in their compliance with the EU's Common EPS Memorandum
> of Understanding on USB-B

Care to explain? I'm not familiar :)

~~~
detaro
The EC organized a voluntary Memorandum of Understanding for mobile phone
chargers, where the major phone companies stated their intent to standardize
on a common phone charger. (depending on who you ask, to avoid the EU making a
binding rule about it otherwise)

Apple signed this too, but as we all know didn't actually add a micro-USB-B
connector to their phones like everybody else, but just providing an adapter
to USB, which was not forbidden, but arguably against the spirit of the
memorandum.

Citing wikipedia, _Some observers, noting Apple 's continued use of
proprietary, non-micro USB charging ports on their smartphones, suggested
Apple was not in compliance with the 2009 Common EPS Memorandum of
Understanding. The European Commission however, confirmed that all MoU
signatories, "have met their obligations under the MoU,"[15] stating
specifically, "Concerning Apple's previous and present proprietary connectors
and their compatibility with the agreement, the MoU allows for the use of an
adaptor without prescribing the conditions for its provision"_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply)

~~~
Aloha
I would disagree with their choice if micro-USB wasn't so lousy mechanically..
I've had more Micro-USB devices fail due to socket failure, than anything
else.

------
guelo
Be careful with the idea that the charger is just a regular USB-C charger.
These laptops will draw 3-4 amps at 20 volts. Most phone chargers are designed
for 1-3amps at 5 volts, so they would only provide a trickle of charge to
these laptops. Older chargers (and computers ports!) can be damaged by these
higher power draws. Also, the USB-C cable the Macs come with is rated up to a
hefty 5 amps. Some of the cheap phone cables out there could actually pose a
fire danger if they were to handle 5 amps.

~~~
Waterluvian
Are the MacBook USB-C ports special in some way that makes them USB-C and also
a non-standard charger port?

If not, then they must be compliant USB-C ports and therefore would not be
supplying an incorrect voltage. As far as I understand the fundamentals of
electricity, current doesn't matter. A 5v USB power source that can supply 100
amps would still only supply whatever the device was designed to draw when
charging.

But all of that is moot if the MacBook ports are "special" USB-C ports and
somehow they negotiate a voltage higher than 5V.

~~~
snuxoll
The USB Power Delivery (USB-PD) spec allows devices to negotiate up to 20V -
the key word, however being "negotiate", means this is no different than how
older USB charging solutions work (start at 5V+100mA, negotiate to whatever
the client device can handle and what the host will allow).

I'm always amused by how uninformed many people are about USB and power
supply, if devices can't negotiate something that works for both ends they
just stop. It's a shitty situation to be in if your device fails to charge,
but devices that follow the USB-IF rules will never draw more current than the
power source can supply, and the power source will never supply more than the
device has requested.

~~~
Waterluvian
So if I plug a dumb device into it that only makes electrical contact, it
won't make that negotiation.

So, so long as Apple's MacBook USB charger is compliant, it won't destroy
anything USB that I plug into it, so long as those devices are also compliant.
Right?

~~~
snuxoll
A "dumb" device that doesn't negotiate will get the minimum 5V@100mA that the
USB spec allows, dedicated chargers often decide to not drop the power after
the negotiation window is over but a proper host device (laptop, etc.) will
drop all power if a device fails to negotiate.

So yeah, if you plug something into the Macbook charger it will either not
charge (dunno if it supports traditional USB power specs since it's a type-C
only charger) or charge as any other charger already does.

~~~
kalleboo
Re: "dumb" devices, this is how it's supposed to work, yes, but I don't think
I've ever seen a charger that won't happily dump 1A into a resistor wired over
the power pins - including brand name (Apple) chargers and yes, the USB ports
on a MacBook Pro. I've never seen a modern device supply only 100 mA.

For devices that DO attempt to negotiate, yes in those cases usually you'll
see it work according to spec.

I haven't tried USB-C yet, it would be interesting to see if devices have
gotten stricter.

------
rufius
I'll just go ahead and contradict the running opinion and say: I like my 2016
MacBook Pro 15".

I've owned a few Macs and this one is my favorite. Despite my initial
impressions, I _really_ like the keyboard. I'm also quite happy with the
trackpad which I've found to be excellent as usual and not picking up stray
contact.

The only place I'm not "ecstatic" or "pleased" is with the TouchBar - and to
be clear, I'm not displeased. I just don't really notice it. It's there doing
its thing and I'm using the laptop, doing my thing. Occasionally I need the
escape key and tap where I'd expect the escape key to be and while I don't get
the tactile feedback it works.

All in all - the TouchBar is a net zero to me. I didn't lose anything by
losing my Fn keys but I don't feel I gained anything with the TouchBar except
TouchId which is nice.

TL;DR: Overpriced? Definitely. Pleased with product? Yes. TouchBar? No strong
feelings. Returning it? No.

~~~
dom96
I'm finding it really odd that people are praising the new keyboard. I must
admit that I have only tested it in the Apple Store, but I find it terrible,
the short travel feels really bad to me. Is this something that you just get
used to?

~~~
rupertj
Bought my new MBP yesterday. I was expecting to have to get used to the
keyboard, but was typing on it just fine straight away. Now I actually prefer
the feel to my previous 2012 Air.

------
steeve
I have an 13" since almost a week. I think it's great. 95% of my time is spent
in iTerm/VSCode/XCode/Android Studio.

Some remarks:

\- Keyboard, especially arrow keys, took me 2 days to get used to, but now it
feels weird typing on a old macbook. I actually love it and prefer it now.

\- The thumb + touchpad thing mentioned elsewhere here was definitely a big
problem in the first day or two. It isn't anymore (guess I got used to it? not
sure because I didn't try to avoid it)

\- USB-C is freaking awesome. I bought an adapter with ethernet, HDMI, usb 3
and SD that actually replaces the 3 adapters I had to carry around. And
because of UPD, I only have one cable to plug to the mac and everything is
there including power.

\- I don't miss magsafe as much as I thought I would. Although I would happily
buy an adapter if it is thin enough (some are coming).

\- Touchbar is actually pretty great, although it being a touch screen, the
lack of touch feedback can be annoying at first. Pretty ESC is annoying at
first, but I got used to it and don't mind it now.

\- Touchbar would be an _awesome_ medium to get notifications (such as long
running terminal jobs etc...)

\- I didn't get any of the battery life issues people are talking about.
Actually, I get 8-10 hours out of it easily (ie plug it at the end of the day
because I forgot it was unplugged).

\- Thinner bezels around the screen makes it somehow look bigger (even though
the visible area is the same size and the screen/lid itself is smaller).

\- HiDPi is freaking great. Finally I can use a 4k monitor smaller than 32"
and still get retina display (1440p HiDPi and other intermediate resolutions
up to native 3820x2160 are fully supported)

\- It is really thin (no thinner that a Macbook Air, but still). It's feels
really great.

\- Actually, I just noticed that because it is thinner, my wrists don't get
hurt by the edges like they used to (the exact opposite of what someone
mentioned here).

~~~
albertgao
Sad to see all these "I get used to it", we spend money to enjoy, not to make
ourselves suffer...

~~~
steeve
Getting "used to something" doesn't necessarily mean suffering, or
compromising. In my case it wasn't at all.

I do enjoy this laptop a lot, thank you very much.

------
satysin
USB-C is awesome. It is the future and in some ways it is good Apple are being
the way they are.

But... I wish Apple would put USB-C in the iDevices (honestly why does the
iPhone and iPad use Lightning when USB-C exists??). It is annoying that I can
ditch all my cables _except that one fucking extra Apple cable_.

~~~
tdkl
To not piss people off with changing the port on the iPhone again.

~~~
satysin
IMHO they should have done it with the iPhone 7 has they ditched the 3.5mm
jack forcing people to buy headphones that will only work with an Apple iPhone
or iPad. Hell not even their laptops have Lightning ports so they are
literally useless for anything else.

I also find it amusing that they released the new MacBook Pro with a 3.5mm
jack when they clearly don't need it. It makes even less sense on a laptop
than a phone IMHO.

~~~
vbezhenar
They will do it next year, so they could sell more USB-C-Lightning adapters
for Lightning headphones people bought for iPhone 7.

------
KirinDave
I don't get it. It's bad for hackers because of the tepid software updates,
increasingly developer unfriendly application environment, lack of full touch
in an age where every other manufacturer does that ad a standard, and awkward
meshing with its own ecosystem.

USB-C is pretty great, actually. Still pretty raw for the mainstream tech
crowd, but it's not like that for tech-literate consumers.

~~~
cillian64
Since when do hackers want touch-screens on their laptops? I feel like that's
pretty much the least hacker-y feature a laptop can have.

~~~
wsgeorge
I only speak for myself when I say it's something I would love to have at my
disposal.

Seeing my colleague intuitively reach out to the screen to use the Android
Virtual Device when we're discussing something convinced me it was actually a
nice thing to have.

~~~
KirinDave
Testing touch UI design with a mouse pointer is futility embodied.

------
chmars
> The new charging block that comes with the MBP looks exactly the same as any
> traditional MBP charger

Actually not, the convenient little 'arms' for the cord are missing. And the
cord itself is rather stiff and not very flexible … and there's no green / red
charging status light either. It's OK as a USB-C charger but it looks and
feels different from a traditional MBP charger.

~~~
victorvation
The "arms" on MagSafe adapters are actually bad for the cable - wrapping it
around them puts undue stress on the cable, which causes them to fray faster.
And a stiff/inflexible cable should also prevent it from fraying.

Seems like Apple took an proprietary, easily-damaged charging cable and
replaced it with a standard, less easy to damage one.

The charging indicator light is a definite loss, though.

~~~
kobayashi
As someone who took good care of my MacBook charging adaptors and cables, I
found them to be perfectly durable. Those arms are only problematic when one
wraps the cable 'immediately', instead of giving an extra loop and then
beginning the winding.

~~~
ant6n
Mbp chargers fall apart quickly. 'Taking good care' in this context sounds
like 'you're holding it wrong'

~~~
kobayashi
I'm not sure what you mean

~~~
scottmf
He's referencing Steve Jobs' email response to the iPhone 4's antenna issues.

------
jsjohnst
Finally somebody writing a realistic post about the USB-C port situation! So
much short sighted whining when this really is a great step forward.

~~~
gurkendoktor
Probably because OP has an Android phone.

I'd _honestly_ love to use my laptop's Ethernet dongle with my iPad or iPhone,
but that won't happen. Apple has just recently doubled down on Lightning with
the Apple TV Remote, the iPhone 7 headphones and the new Magic
Trackpad/Mouse/Keyboard trio. For iPad accessories, they've even introduced
the all-new Smart Connector instead of a USB-C port on the side of the iPad.

~~~
jsjohnst
Check this out...

NooQee USB Type C Adapter to Lightning 8-Pin 2-Pack [0]

NooQee Lightning 8-Pin to USB Type C Adapter 2-Pack [1]

[0]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M340K3B/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M340K3B/)

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K496YTC/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K496YTC/)

------
toyg
TL; DR: _" USB-C all the things" is great... if you use android phones._

Author conveniently avoids mentioning that the charger is another usability
step back (no more plastic hooks to keep cable tidy), or that those external
USB-C batteries are not really powerful enough to give you anything but a
handful of extra minutes, or that, er, Apple's own phone doesn't get any of
these wonderful improvements. and of course...

 _> You can buy tiny little USB-C adapters_

It's well-known that the current quality of USB-C cables and adapters is very
random, to say the least, up to and including serious electrical damage.

Interoperability is good, but it looks like Apple just introduced a new series
of trade-offs that are sub-optimal. Regardless, to say that a laptop is great
"for hackers" because it has USB (A,B,C, whatever) ports is just silly. I
mean, you can't even change your hard drive here.

~~~
dancek
Yes. The title could have been "USB Type-C is kind of great for hackers", but
would that get the same amount of readers? Probably not.

I think the next iPhone will have USB-C. It would make little sense for Apple
to commit this heavily on the laptop side while keeping their proprietary
connector in their phones.

------
albertgao
Sorry, the charger comes with Microsoft surface series has an additional USB
port, so I can charge my phone and laptop at the same time. And I won't buy
some so called stupid USB c monitor just for meet the needs of the new
macbook. This article perfectly described how awful the dongles world looks
like.

------
gnicholas
> Now I only need to bring one power cable to the café instead of two and I
> can charge my computer or my phone interchangeably. This is so nice!

I've never even thought of bringing a phone wall charger with me when I have
my laptop and laptop charger. Just plug the phone into the laptop if it needs
charging.

~~~
ecaroth
Which still requires the charging cord

~~~
gnicholas
With an iPhone, (or any other phone that doesn't charge over USB C), this is
always the case.

------
dman
I have no idea how we got to the USB C connector mess. I thought one of the
hard fought battles of the tech ecosystem was "if it fits, it will work". What
is the rationale for using the same connector for incompatible use cases?

~~~
TTPrograms
Yeah, this is going to be a nightmare for non-technical consumers. It's almost
shockingly bad.

------
rasz_pl
Author forgot to mention new MBPs dont use USB-C, they use _special Apple
variant_ of USB-C. Variant that doesnt work with ordinary dongles, from hdmi
dongles producing flickering mess to USB 2.0 dongles _silently corrupting
files_ from pendrives.

~~~
AJ007
Not sure why your comment was down voted -
[http://blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/29/total-nightmare-usb-c-
th...](http://blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/29/total-nightmare-usb-c-
thunderbolt-3/)

~~~
floatboth
Thunderbolt 3 is not a "special Apple variant". Most new high-end laptops
these days have Thunderbolt 3.

[https://thunderbolttechnology.net/products?tid=14&field_comp...](https://thunderbolttechnology.net/products?tid=14&field_company_nid=All&field_prod_os_value_many_to_one=All&field_prod_tb_version_value_many_to_one=All)

------
hobarrera
The article goes on and on about fun new stuff that you can do (and I don't
deny them).

But we can't do the same old things we NEED to do, like keep using all our
existing cables and devices (including mice!). Really, if they wanted to
merely transition to USB-C, they could have included 2 new ports, and 2 old
ports. No need to eliminate the old USB ports in just one generation.

Regarding the "it's the same plug as your phone":

It's not! iPhones have lightning cable (ironically, their own phone!).

~~~
wsgeorge
> Really, if they wanted to merely transition to USB-C, they could have
> included 2 new ports, and 2 old ports. No need to eliminate the old USB
> ports in just one generation.

This. Dropping all the old ports was a step too far, I think. It's forward
looking, but it's an inconvenience today.

I'm sure a smoother transition would've been more welcome.

------
santaclaus
> You can even charge your MBP and phone together from one of those generic
> portable USB-C backup batteries

That is kind of cool -- but how many batteries is it going to take, in
practice, to juice up a MBP from empty?

~~~
lobster_johnson
I don't know the specs of the new MBPs, but my mid-2015 MBP's battery is 7530
mAh at full charge. You can get portable charger batteries that are much more
than that these days; this one [1] is 26,800 mAh, which in _theory_ could
charge my MBP 3.5 times. In practice, less than that, but still probably at
_least_ two full charges.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Charger-RAVPower-26800mAh-
Re...](https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Charger-RAVPower-26800mAh-
Recharged/dp/B01LRQDAEI)

~~~
dancek
You can't directly compare mAh values, as they're an unit of electric charge.
The amount of energy depends on voltage, too. Power bank manufacturers are
basically running a marketing scam; the batteries they sell have 3.7V while
USB uses 5V. What's more, the MBP battery voltage is something around 12V.

So the 26,800 mAh power bank has a capacity of 26,800 mAh * 3.7V = 99,600 mWh
= 99.6 Wh of energy. Meanwhile, the 15" MBP has a 76 Wh battery. So
theoretically you can do about 1.3 charges; realistically I'd say one full
charge.

------
aq3cn
This MacBook Pro has given me good reasons to learn to build a custom PC. I am
okay dual booting or visualizing OS X in Linux or Windows.

On the other hand, I am impressed how Asus, Dell and Razor has allowed use of
external desktop top notch NVIDIA graphics card in their laptops along with
USB C and RAID support while keeping system upgradable.

[http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-
stealth](http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth)

Thanks Apple.

------
mpweiher
Just got my 13" two days ago and _very_ happy with it so far. I had a 13"
before, got a 15" at work and my girlfriend has the 12". I was almost ready
for a 12" myself, and am glad I waited. Although it is noticeably heavier than
the 12", and not really objectively that much lighter than the previous
versions, the new 13" has the same "just pick it up with one hand" feel that
the 12" has. It is wonderful.

My 2 year old daughter has watched me unlock it with my thumb and tries to do
the same without succeeding :-) And she can't mess up the password input field
either, because there is none. (She can get my iPad into a "reset" state in
seconds that I have to then recover from backup. I still have no idea how she
does it).

I did have to remove the Siri button from the toucher because (a) it is too
close to the delete key and (b) I just don't need Siri that often. The UI for
that is pretty neat, by the way: the mouse is able to move into the touchbar,
so you can just drag'n'drop into and out of it.

Since I remap my modifiers anyway (caps-lock -> control, where god and Digital
Equipment Corporation intended the control key to go), I had no problem
mapping the now largely useless control key to escape, although I haven't had
a problem with the soft escape key yet. Nice benefit: bringing up the force-
quit panel is now very easy.

I really like the USB-C so far, will be far fewer cables and power adapters on
upcoming trips. While MagSafe was nice, I won't miss the always fraying
cables, especially since they were permanently attached to the power brick, so
frayed cable → new brick.

I was surprised how quickly the TouchBar became unremarkable, though the fact
that there is a single button to open a man-page for the currently typed
command in Terminal is definitely kinda cool! Volume/brightness adjustments
take a little more looking (for now), though the fact that you can scrub from
the "key" without lifting despite that the control is elsewhere makes it
pretty easy. And scrubbing media via the TouchBar is definitely way, way less
fiddly than via on-screen controls.

The keyboard looks much classier than my previous MBP's, and I prefer the
feel. But then again, I seem to be weird when it comes to keyboards, for
example I _loved_ the Amiga 1000 keyboard and hated the big-travel,
clicky/noisy keyboards on the original IBM PCs that everyone else still raves
about.

EDIT: 95% battery, watching youtube video, 7h+ remaining.

------
bdcravens
> Now I only need to bring one power cable to the café instead of two and I
> can charge my computer or my phone interchangeably. This is so nice!

Unless you have the two most common phones (Apple or Samsung), or any of the
many others that don't yet support USB-C.

------
znpy
On one hand, I must admit that I didn't consider all this.

But quite franky, this post only makes me excited about USB-C and usb-c
enabled monitors.

I wonder how much power can a laptop draw from a monitor though.. I currently
have a ThinkPad W530 with a 170W power adapter which literally is a brick (in
both shape and weight). I wonder if a monitor could power a such-power-hungry
beast).

------
geoka9
> You can buy tiny little USB-C adapters like this by the handful on Amazon
> for cents

But beware of the really cheap ones, they can burn your "legacy" USB ports:

[http://www.laptopmag.com/articles/how-to-find-safe-usb-
type-...](http://www.laptopmag.com/articles/how-to-find-safe-usb-type-c-
cables)

------
jasode
_> You can buy tiny little USB-C adapters like this by the handful on Amazon
for cents:_

Buying a proper USB-C adapter is not trivial.[1] I read somewhere that Amazon
subsequently removed a lot of bad listings/sellers but that doesn't mean a
_new_ batch of bad adapters are selling now 2016.

 _> In a year or two when we all have junk drawers packed full of extra
generic USB-C cables that cost nearly nothing, we’re going to look back on
this and wonder why everyone was so worked up._

Because Apple didn't synchronize the _USB-C-is-the-future_ simultaneously
across all new products. The brand new iPhone 7 is Lightning instead of USB-C.
The brand new yet-to-be-released AirPods' recharging dock is Lightning instead
of USB-C. That's what leads to the mob mocking Apple's product strategy
requiring the clutter of dongles.[2]

[1][http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/11/google-engineer-
leave...](http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/11/google-engineer-leaves-
scathing-reviews-of-dodgy-usb-type-c-cables-on-amazon/)

[2][https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/5a6lbd/it_just_works...](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/5a6lbd/it_just_works_apple/)

------
jwatte
I need a GPU and as much RAM as possible to run VMs. The new MBP, with wimpy
graphics and 16 GB of RAM, does worse than a Razer Blade (also USB C, has been
out since early 2016)

------
vacri
Most of the article seems to be "port compatibility between Apple laptops and
Google phones", and doesn't work for those with Apple phones.

------
izacus
While we're at it... I just got my 15" MBP and I can't get pass the fact that
the keyboard backlight is noticably uneven - e.g. the clover logo in Command
buttons isn't fully lit, "alt" text on option etc.

Is anyone else seeing this or is it a faulty unit?

~~~
pstadler
Same here. Also my down arrow is really loud on release. Scheduled an
appointment with Apple to sort these issues out.

When I look at the black screen from a wide angle (either from left or right)
the surface looks uneven. This doesn't have any impact on picture quality
though. Does somebody know whether this is due to the anti-glare coating?

Otherwise I'm really happy with my non-Touch Bar 13" model (i7, 16GB).

------
zokier
Not saying anything about the new MBP, but I would be really wary of
connecting a $2000+ device to a random no-name $9 car charger. Heck, I'm not
sure if I'd even want to connect my smart phone to that.

------
outworlder
Nearly half of the article was about USB-C.

Guess what? MacBooks are not the only ones with that port. $900 laptops have
them, and most have at least one USB-A port as well.

Not sure what any of this has to do with hacking.

------
phaedryx
hackers -> people who use Apple laptops and android phones?

~~~
scarlac
I think that's a pretty common setup for many hackers, yes. Some only buy it
for the hardware, but I see plenty using macOS as well.

~~~
egh5oon
For the HN definition of hackers, maybe.

------
kbumsik
Hackers? Looks like hackers mean people who like gadgets in his post. They are
NOT hackers at least.

If hackers mean software/hardware engineer or someone who like programming, a
laptop with only USB-C ports is a total disaster because hackers usually have
to deal with legacy hardware/system.

------
hellofunk
It is discussed here that you could charge one laptop off another. Okay, cool.
But what if they are both plugged in, then you attach them over USB? Do they
both send a charge out, possibly cause one or both to fry? And what if you
have multiple sources of charging plugged into the machine?

~~~
ageitgey
Good questions! It's all in the USB Power Delivery [1] spec. The devices will
do reasonable things.

For example if you plug four power sources into the MacBook Pro (one in each
port), it will take power only from the source that is supplying the highest
power.

Or if you plug a cell phone into a USB-C hub, it will suck as much power as it
can to charge it's battery as quickly as possible. But if the hub needs more
power temporarily to spin up a hard drive, the charging device can momentarily
reduce it's power draw and then resume charging when the extra power is
available again.

[1]
[http://www.usb.org/developers/powerdelivery/](http://www.usb.org/developers/powerdelivery/)

------
Demcox
"...we’re going to look back on this and wonder why everyone was so worked
up."

My reaction:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JncgoPKklVE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JncgoPKklVE)

------
Odenwaelder
What happens if you plug the monitor into your Nexus 6P? Do you get a regular
Desktop?

~~~
ageitgey
Sadly the Nexus 6P doesn't support any kind of direct video-out (USB-C, HDMI
or otherwise). It came out before the USB-C screen mirroring specs were
finalized. All you can do is chromecast over the network.

But hopefully by this time next year, new cell phones will generally support
screen mirroring over USB-C. Some phones (like the LG G5 [1]) already support
it.

[1] [http://www.mobilefun.co.uk/blog/2016/06/connect-your-
lg-g5-t...](http://www.mobilefun.co.uk/blog/2016/06/connect-your-lg-g5-to-usb-
c-monitors-for-mirroring-charging-in-one-cable/)

------
aib
Apparently the author has just discovered standards.

------
KKKKkkkk1
Is there a technical reason why Apple does not provide a MagSafe-style USB-C
cable with the new MBP? Is it pure carelessness?

~~~
grzm
Looking at a USB-C plug compared to that of a MagSafe, I'm not sure they would
have been able to come up with anything as well-designed as the MagSafe
itself. Rather than make due with a more clunky design similar to the Griffin
BreakSafe, I suspect they chose to omit it.

~~~
ssijak
You could do Griffin BreakSafe style on the charger side and not laptop side,
so it would look nice.

~~~
grzm
_it would look nice_

In your opinion, perhaps. I don't think the designers at Apple agree. If they
did, I think we would see something similar to the BreakSafe from Apple.

------
josephhainline
Sounds useful for the very few macOS or iOS developers who happen to have
Android phones.

------
geophile
So USB-C sounds great. Too bad the laptop offering it has a crippled keyboard.

------
fit2rule
tl;dr: USB-C is awesome, because Android phones that use it are awesome. Oh,
and Apple made a USB-C device, finally, too.

------
joelbondurant
Computing appliances are not computers. Great for children tho.

------
yandrypozo
i didn't see the part that it's "great for hackers"

------
waspleg
I read this as "fan boy with too much money replaces every peripheral he owns
with USB-C; looks for ways to justify being an early adopter while
showboating".

Fuck given? 0.

------
akhilcacharya
My biggest problem is that there are only 4, whereas I use 5 on a daily basis
with my MBPr.

~~~
freehunter
On the previous version there were only two, so I guess you're that much
closer to your 5 devices you need.

~~~
akhilcacharya
5 ports _total_ \- magsafe, 1 thunderbolt, 2 USB and HDMI are plugged in right
now.

------
melling
Personally, I've been waiting a couple of years for Apple to drop the USB-C
bomb.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9360128](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9360128)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9490224](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9490224)

The new USB-C iMacs ship in the spring. I'm not sure why PC's haven't started
the transition. USB-C is a no-brainer.

~~~
skrowl
You can't be serious in thinking PCs haven't started offering USB-C ports. Go
to MicroCenter or Fry's and try to find a motherboard for a current-gen proc
without USB-C.

~~~
duskwuff
Most modern motherboards _have_ USB-C, but they treat it as a special case --
you typically get one or two USB-C ports at best, and the rest are type A.
(Often, some of those are even USB2.)

~~~
ashark
Probably a chicken-egg thing. I, for one, don't have a single USB-C device at
home. Zero. Nothing that can plug into a USB-C port without an adapter. No
plans to buy anything that does, unless I'm forced to by computer/phone
manufacturers. I would be... _unenthusiastic_ about a motherboard that
emphasized USB-C over other ports. _Includes_ it, so I have the option to
start transitioning? Sure.

Work's similar. There are a couple USB-C Android phones floating around, but
the other end of their cables is— _drum roll_ —USB-A.

~~~
melling
I think that's my point. PC vendors are slow to change. Not to worry, 2017
will be the breakout year for usb-c. Several hundred million phones will ship
with it:

[https://www.cnet.com/pictures/phones-with-usb-
type-c/](https://www.cnet.com/pictures/phones-with-usb-type-c/)

It'll be common on Dell's, HP's, etc. Get ready for your usb-c headphones:
[http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-offering-free-
usb-c-35mm-h...](http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-offering-free-usb-c-35mm-
headphone-adapter-all-bolt-buyers)

~~~
toast0
PC vendors can't afford to tell users to throw away all of their accessories
every time a sexier connector comes along. Some other vendor will include a
ps/2 port or a parallel port or USB type A and if buyers want to keep using
the stuff they have, they'll buy the new computer that has the ports they
want. Apple can do whatever because if you buy the old model for better ports,
you're still buying from them.

~~~
melling
Absolutely no one said that they need to replace all their legacy ports.
Adding a couple of the small USB-C ports to the front and back is all that's
needed on desktops. On laptops, putting one on each side should be doable.

A computer that you buy today will last 7-10 years. I guarantee that there
will be lots of USB-C devices in 3 years.

