

No IE onboard Windows 7 in Europe - surki
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8096701.stm

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DrJokepu
Yeah as someone living in Europe, I'm not really happy about that. Internet
Explorer is an excellent tool to download Chrome or Firefox. It's like a
bootstrapping browser. Very useful.

~~~
froo
I'm curious if Europe will enforce the same policies on Apple - eg, ensuring
that safari does not come pre-installed on snow leopard.

If not, blatant double standards given Apple's market share is increasing.

EDIT - another thought, since access to internet via phones is becoming more
widespread, will the EU start imposing the same policies on mobile phone
manufacturers...

EDIT #2 - Personally I think if the EU wants to force competition in the
browser market, they should ensure that users get a choice of browsers with
the pre-installed OS, otherwise with the browser not being included is
potentially stumping the growth of internet availability to people who
otherwise wouldn't have it.

Just to be clear, I'm not anti-Apple, I just dislike silly rulings that in
themselves are anti-competitive, given they only apply to one company.

~~~
AlisdairO
Anti monopoly rules are usually unfair sounding. Why shouldn't a larger
company use its position and money to dominate a new market? The thing is,
monopolies can be so damaging to society that treating them in a manner that
seems instinctively fair is often bad for us. Like it or not, they _are_
different, and they must be treated differently. It's important to remember
that corporations are not people, so if they're treated unfairly the only
reason it's a big deal is if society as a whole loses out as a result.

That said, I think the browser market is competitive enough nowadays that MS
including a browser really is not that big a deal - OSes include browsers in
the same way that cars come with steering wheels. I think this is more about
punishing MS for past transgressions than anything else.

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jeroen
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=654414>

The European Comission: "If the Commission were to find that Microsoft had
committed an abuse, the Commission has suggested that consumers should be
offered a choice of browser, not that Windows should be supplied without a
browser at all."

That's quite a different situation than what MS imply with their response.

~~~
sounddust
The article states that Microsoft will make it easy to find and download
browsers, which is essentially the same thing as having a choice of browsers.

The EC is probably referring to Windows XP N, which didn't include a media
player at all, and sort of left users in the dark as to how to play media
files using it. I'm sure MS got some criticism from that from the EU and will
not repeat the mistake.

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arthurk
_... by bundling its browser software in with its operating system._

I still don't understand why this is wrong. It's their os, let them do
whatever they want with it. There are other operating systems around. They
don't need to use Windows.

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Luc
If IE is bundled with the OS, their de facto monopoly in the OS market reduces
innovation, competition and customer choice in the _browser_ market.

~~~
petercooper
Does the bundling of Command Prompt reduce innovation and competition in the
command line client market? Does Windows Explorer reduce innovation and
competition in the file browser market?

~~~
Luc
That could be argued. It's a shades of grey thing. Some things stand out as
bundled more than others - especially those that are obviously not part of an
OS, for which a market exists etc.

~~~
petercooper
Perhaps in the 90s a Web browser would have not obviously been part of an OS,
but nowadays it's one of the simplest, yet most used, applications going and
it makes sense to bundle one with any desktop-based OS.

Come to think of it, I can't think of any current desktop-based OS that
_doesn't_ come with a Web browser installed by default..

The whole anti-competition lawsuit over this stuff was based on early 2000s
assumptions. It's time to forget all about it now and let MS get on with it.

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barredo
How would people install Firefox/Chrome/Opera/Safari whatever then?

It's a shame that they choose to provide no browsers instead of providing a
few

~~~
petercooper
I'm usually anti-Microsoft, but it's ridiculous that Internet Explorer was a
problem to the EU to start with.

Why not unbundle Explorer? Why not unbundle the control panel? Isn't it unfair
that Notepad is included? What about Calculator.. surely that's hurting
Mathematica? (Before you think I'm going over the top here, IE compared to
Firefox is like Calculator vs Mathematica IMHO..) These EU commissions are run
by dim-witted politicos who fail to understand any of the realities of
technology or business.

~~~
weavejester
It's not ridiculous at all. Microsoft were using their monopoly in desktop
operating systems to gain browser market share. This doesn't benefit anyone
apart from Microsoft.

~~~
axod
I don't think people would have minded as much if IE weren't the worst browser
ever created. Add to that the fact that Microsoft abandoned IE for years,
leaving everyone high and dry.

~~~
petercooper
Actually, IE being a hideous browser should make it better as it makes it
easier for competition to succeed and gives people more reason to investigate
and accept alternatives.

Consider if all manufactured cars came with a really crappy "default" radio
with horrible sound. The majority of drivers would choose to upgrade the radio
to a better one, thus making the marketplace for car radios a healthier, more
competitive one. If the cars came with amazing radios built in, hardly anyone
would switch.

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hellweaver666
Why does it matter which browser has bigger market share as far as antitrust
laws go? Nearly all browsers are free and have been for donkeys years, so does
it really matter -business wise- if one company has the majority?

~~~
hellweaver666
Does this mean that AOL will finally have an excuse for sending out all those
annoying CD's again?

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gscott
Netscape's ftp site was always handy, can't seem to find any ftp sites for any
browsers now.

~~~
imp
How do you get an ftp client without a browser?

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halo
Windows Explorer has an FTP client built-in.

~~~
petercooper
Uh-oh, I smell another lawsuit. Think of the damage that's doing to all those
FTP client vendors!

