
French Developers can earn double in Silicon Valley - LiamBoogar
http://www.rudebaguette.com/2014/09/02/french-developers-make-50-less-france-silicon-valley/
======
VeejayRampay
A few things that should be noted because articles like these tend to focus on
the mere disparity in earnings:

1) In France, your salary is usually lower because your employer has to pay a
lot of taxes. So does the employee.

2) Those taxes are in turn used for a lot of things that make the French model
(and those of Sweden, Denmark, etc.) a nice place to live like next-to-free
education, health care, transportation infrastructure, public libraries and
hospitals, universities, so called "Grandes Écoles".

I'm not saying the system isn't currently broken or that it even works but in
the end, it is really not as simple as X in France and 2X in the Silicon
Valley cause in the end, you have to shell out for your health insurance, your
education and a lot of different services that are just part of the French
package when you live in the USA.

A good illustration of this is the price I paid to go to one of the best
universities around Paris: the equivalent of $250 a YEAR.

For that kind of quality, I would have easily paid something like $5000 or
more in the States.

So really, both systems have their pros and cons, it's really way more nuanced
than that.

~~~
p4bl0
You forgot to add the unemployment allowance and paid retirement, which are a
huge benefit. In particular in the tech scene, the unemployment allowance
means that you can be paid up to 80% of your previous salary for almost two
years (… way to seed startups!).

All this plus what parent poster mentioned are what we call the "deferred
salary", it's hard to evaluate precisely but in now way it's negligible.

Also I don't know in which Parisian university you went, but I bet that it
would be a lot more than $5000/year to get an equivalent "service" in the US.

~~~
S4M
You need to have been fired for that - you won't get the unemployment benefits
if you quit your job. On the other hand, unemployment can be a cushion for
employees of a failed startup.

I don't know if founders of failed startups can get the unemployment though.

~~~
paraboul
That's not true. To be eligible for the unemployment benefits you must not
break your contract with your employer. That is, you can leave if you respect
the terms of the contract.

~~~
S4M
It's unclear. It says here [0] that in principle you can't get unemployment
benefit if you leave your job on your own, although there are exception to
that, mainly if you leave your job for family reason (your partner got an
opportunity in a different geographical area), or if you experimented
unprofessional behavior at your previous company, such as sexual harassment.

In the link I gave, it says that you can get unemployment if you leave to
create your own company, but here [1] it says that if you leave to create your
own company and it doesn't take off, you will be able to get unemployment
benefit ("Démission pour reprise ou création entreprise : Et, si pour des
raisons qui ne sont pas de votre fait cette nouvelle activité s’arrête, vous
pourrez alors récupérer le cas échéant votre droit à des indemnités de
chômage.").

I am a French expat so my knowledge of this might be a bit off, but I am still
interested in that subject.

[0] sorry, in French: [http://www.toobusiness.com/portail/conseil/loi-
juridique/all...](http://www.toobusiness.com/portail/conseil/loi-
juridique/allocation-chomage.htm)

[1] still in French: [http://allocation-chomage.fr/demission-chomage-pole-
emploi/](http://allocation-chomage.fr/demission-chomage-pole-emploi/)

~~~
paraboul
Sorry for the late reply S4M.

I think there is a confusion between "leaving your job on your own" and
leaving in a consensual way with your employer.

Most of the time, when you decide to leave, you make a departure plan with
your employer. If your employer agree with your decision, you generally leave
after 3 month or so (depending on the terms of the contract).

You can then ask for you unemployment benefits.

~~~
S4M
For me it's very ambiguous and I would really check it before leaving my job
if I was planning to use unemployment benefit to finance a startup. What are
your sources?

~~~
paraboul
Source : Years of employment. +

[http://vosdroits.service-
public.fr/particuliers/F19708.xhtml](http://vosdroits.service-
public.fr/particuliers/F19708.xhtml)

------
ferrantim
As a recent transplant from San Francisco to Nantes, France, I'd like to point
out that my salary is about half of what it was in the US, taking into
consideration exchange rate, so the article is right on. However, my
purchasing power has gone up about 2x. My apartment in San Francisco was
$4000/month for a 2 bedroom. In Nantes, I pay €800 euros for a 2 bedroom that
is about 25% bigger. Some things are more expensive in France, but one the
whole, it is much much cheaper, and I'd argue that quality of life is way
better.

For what it is worth, I am American with a french partner. Probably not as
easy for others to get a Visa to work in France.

~~~
aianus
I find this hard to believe. As a Canadian my experience is that everything is
cheaper in San Francisco save for rent which doesn't begin to cover the tax
and salary disparity ($2.2k for a studio vs $1.3k, big whoop). Given that
France seems even more expensive than Canada for electronics, cars, fuel,
taxes, etc, where are you realizing these savings?

~~~
nolite
Food is way cheaper in Paris than SF... both groceries, and restaurants.

~~~
aianus
Food in SF is often free at work. Even without that perk I can't see more than
$100-$200 a month in savings from food.

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bsaul
Little anecdote :

A few years ago, a contact in one of our customer working at a Very Big IT
company in silicon valley (and i mean VERY BIG) happened to be french. He had
a high role in that company, so he presumably made quite a lot of money. Well,
one day his wife was diagnosed cancer, so guess what he did : he went back
living in France for her. And i didn't ask so I may be wrong, but i presume it
wasn't for the air quality.

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ramblerman
Not taking into consideration

\- rent

\- cost of living

\- More Paid leave and shorter work weeks (in france)

\- Included health/pension/social benefits

Makes this a very one sided comparison. I could also imagine a brain drain
effect might be at play like with India, where the average talent of the
French developer who relocated is somewhat higher than the average of the
developers in the original country.

~~~
illumen
Also you get to live 2 years longer... 79.4 for males in France, and 77.4 for
males in the USA. Women about 6 years longer in France, and 5 years longer in
the USA. You get almost 2 years extra holiday over the working lifetime too.

------
ownagefool
So in UK pay goes like this:

Salaried Developer @ £40K £3,333.33 Gross £2,512.89 Net

Contract Developer @ £350 per/day using a trust £7350 Gross £6027 Net

Contract Developer @ £350 per/day using an umbrella £7350 Gross £4,333.68 Net

Contract Developer @ £350 using Ltd £8820 Gross using flat-tax scheme You'll
need an accountant to tell you what you can actually get net, if you have a
wife that doesn't work it'll closer to a trust, if you don't, it'll be closer
to an umbrella, but you can defer to bring it closer to the trust if you're
patient.

I'm not sure what people actually get paid in SV, but £350 is fairly low end,
you can pull £600 a day in London which'll earn you $250,000 assuming you
never take a holiday or are inbetween jobs, which isn't a good idea.

P.S. The salaried developer probably costs the company more too.

FYI you don't need to be in the UK to contract, I just don't know the tax
structures elsewhere.

~~~
jadc
Would you mind explaining the trust/umbrella/Ltd schemes? Probably not
familiar for folks from outside the UK.

~~~
ownagefool
umbrella = you become an employee of them. they pay your taxes as if you were
a typical pay-e employee, thus you'll hit the 40% tax bracket fairly quickly.

trust = tax avoidance structure, a trust is just one type, there are many
others. [http://www.contractoruk.com/ebt/](http://www.contractoruk.com/ebt/)

Ltd company[1] = starting your own offical company. Reason to do this is corp
tax is only 20%. You need to pay that on your companies profit[2], but if
you're patient it's pretty much all you need to pay[3]. Reason: Dividens are
essentially tax free upto 31,865, if you have a spouce that's not earning,
double this amount. Add in your tax-free allowance on income tax and a married
couple can pull between £70-80k a year "tax-free" and you can defer anything
else until later years. Your still paying your 20% corp tax on that income,
but you also get resonable expenses. Your laptop, travel, maybe a phone for
the most part is what is deemed resonable.

[1] This is the way the .GOV.UK wants you to avoid tax. If you have a non-
working spouce, it's pretty much the best way until you start earning > 500
p/d and even then some would debate this is the way to do it.

[2] Profit = your companies income - your salary (not dividens) - expenses.

[3] OK so you'll probably want to set aside ~£1000 a year for accountant fees
and ~£500 for insurance. Of course these are expenses, so come off your before
your 20% corp-tax.

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jacquesm
What you can earn is only relevant when compared to what you spend, and what
your perceived quality of life is.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
A very good point.

Also true,some folks may want to make less and have a bunch of things "pre-
digested" for them. Others may want more and be able to purchase goods and
services (like college educations) as they choose. There is no right or wrong
here. This is a "do you like ice cream" question.

Additionally, simply because you're making more and living in the U.S. doesn't
mean you can't have a laid back lifestyle. Or if you're making less in living
in France you're as free as you want to work and play as hard as you want.

These broad generalizations don't mean much.

Having said all of that, in my own career when I was young I chased the money.
Not to get rich: I simply found that people who pay a lot of money for stuff
are usually doing something very interesting. There's a lot more stuff going
on in SV than in Lyon. This was my choice. Others make different ones.

------
zobzu
i got a 20% lower salary in paris than i did in SF. but with costs of living,
health care, 401k, free education and all, the difference is actually not
significant and in fact probably null or negative...

if you need none of the benefits you get in france, you'll get slightly more
in SF.

so its not really a clear cut

~~~
liotier
> if you need none of the benefits you get in france, you'll get slightly more
> in SF.

Yes : if you are young, healthy and with no kids, you are better off in the
USA, Malta or any other fiscal 'paradise' where you benefit from the lack of
solidarity. Otherwise you are better off in a country whose fiscal system
takes social welfare in consideration.

------
draugadrotten
French work week is 35 hours by law, with five weeks of paid leave per year
worked. I bet that the double pay looks less attractive when you realize that
Silicon Valley programmers work nearly double hours.

[http://www.expatica.com/fr/employment/employment_information...](http://www.expatica.com/fr/employment/employment_information/French-
labour-laws_-Working-time-and-leave_16106.html)

~~~
yaantc
It's more complicated than this. At a certain level of seniority, which most
engineers are, the 35h/week rule do not apply anymore. There still are
restrictions but it's really to avoid abuse (make sure you get enough sleep
for example, I don't have the details in mind sorry). To compensate for the
extra hours, there are extra days of vacations though, call "RTT" (Reduction
du Temps de Travail = work time reduction). Here too, I don't have the exact
number in mind, about 7 or 8 days / year --- enough that I don't bother
tracking my vacation days precisely, as you can see ;)

So the 35h/week rule is mostly for basic jobs, not for people working in high
tech.

That kind of situation is quite typical by the way: the French system is over-
complicated with too many options and special cases. Foreign coverage tend to
stick to the high level headlines (which is perfectly normal) and as a result
people often have a distorted view of reality.

------
fmsf
Also in the UK, under the London bubble salaries are increasing rapidly, a
£50k is starting to be a very low salary for skilled engineers.

~~~
tomp
Really? Although I rarely see salaries advertised in job ads, and rarely hear
from programmers how much they're paid, I got the feeling that you could get
about 40K as a non-junior engineer (about 50K in finance).

~~~
timruffles
55k is average for Ruby in London now:
[http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/default.aspx?page=1&sortby=0&or...](http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/default.aspx?page=1&sortby=0&orderby=0&q=ruby&id=0&lid=1853)

I'd say £70k+ for senior. Contract rates are £450+, so ~£100k a year.

~~~
ownagefool
Factoring in tax breaks, you'll need £150k a year before you can compete with
a £400 p/d contract.

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lukasm
It always amazes me that someone compare gross salaries. It should always be
with some form of EBITA with normalization and net profit.

------
lotsofmangos
Bringing up Ferguson is a bit of cheap shot, especially considering the Paris
riots and the situation with policing there. Going from Paris to San Francisco
might actually get you slightly less police harassment depending on your
background.

~~~
yaantc
There's been no riots in Paris, there were in some parts of the suburbs of
Paris. I've seen the coverage in the US of the Paris riots and it's true you
could feel like Paris was on fire. But living in Paris itself or in the close
and nice suburbs (as I do) you would have seen nothing at all.

It's part of the problem: the rioting suburbs are ghettoized and have huge
unemployment. There's also a strong stigma if you look for a job with an
address there.

It's a real and big issue for France, but for the high-tech jobs and people
covered by the article it's a non issue: you'll be in the safe parts and will
only see such event on TV. It will have no practical impact on your life.

~~~
lotsofmangos
_" for the high-tech jobs and people covered by the article it's a non issue:
you'll be in the safe parts and will only see such event on TV"_

I am fairly sure that coders and geeks from within those Paris suburbs would
find your assessment more than a little exclusionary. Ability and interest are
not defined by being born somewhere safe.

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alphadevx
Any of these comparisons between countries and cities have to take into
account cost of living (rent, childcare, food, transport, insurance etc.).
High salaries in a region are often required to cover high costs to live
there.

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dkarapetyan
Any developer can earn double in silicon valley, especially in san francisco.
Being french has nothing to do with it.

------
jfpuget
Revenue tax (impot sur le revenu) is also much higher in the US unless your
salary is really high in France.

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mjnaus
If they're able to speak English that is :)

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bambax
> health car system

health care.

> these points are relatively mute

moot.

