
Iron Ring - DanI-S
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring
======
alex_c
Random trivia: the "iron version" picture is of my own ring, uploaded a few
years back when I was messing around with my friend's new camera. Pleasant
surprise not only to see this on HN, but to see that the picture is still
there after all this time :)

As far as I know my year (2005) was one of the last years that U of T still
offered an actual iron version, as opposed to stainless steel (most other
schools no longer did at that time). I'm not sure if it's still possible to
get one today. Another option was to get an old ring from retired engineers
who were no longer practicing and returned their ring to be used by the next
generation... something that I thought was pretty amazing and humbling.

~~~
joejohnson
You should put something in the picture for size reference (a ruler maybe). I
couldn't tell if these were finger-sized rings or if these were more like
bangles/bracelets. It doesn't say anything about size in the article.

~~~
cli
The article states that the ring is to be worn on the pinky of the dominant
hand.

~~~
gknoy
The explanation I heard for this (from an engineer coworker) was that it's
meant to be a reminder that whenever you sign off on a design or report, you
are doing so as an Engineer, not merely as yourself, and that it's therefore a
reminder to take things seriously.

------
npsimons
Perhaps we should have a silicon ring for software engineers. And in case you
are thinking "that would break too easily", well that's part of the point: to
remind you that software can also be very easily broken, sometimes without
even trying :)

~~~
ovoxo
I'm a Software Engineer in Canada and I have an iron ring but that is because
our Software Engineering programs (at least the ones that I know of) are
accredited engineering programs - i.e. you must go through much of the same
hell as other engineers.

~~~
TheCapn
Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board is the authoritative body as far as
I'm aware and in order to title yourself an "Engineer" you need to be a member
of your provincial regulatory body since the title "Engineer" is a protected
title under law. It isn't really enforced in any way but to call yourself a
"Software Engineer" without having P.Eng. in Canada is _technically_ illegal.

EDIT: Its pointed out in a different post that "Engineer" as a protected term
is not concrete and varies province to province while "Professional Engineer"
or "P.Eng." _is_ however protected.

~~~
AYBABTME
Software Engineers in Canada can be P.Eng if they choose to. What makes you
think she/he's not?

~~~
Zombieball
This is correct. I graduated from UBC as a Software Engineer and have applied
as an EIT with APEGBC. I haven't followed through to apply for P. Eng. status
though as the process is a little more difficult for software folks.

You are supposed to submit work experience under supervision of another P.
Eng. which are not very common place in our industry. I believe you can apply
for exceptions to this rule though.

I personally haven't bothered following through with my P. Eng. status as I am
not yet convinced it buys much in our profession (vs. the other fields of
Engineering).

~~~
TheCapn
My thoughts are that I'm going to be in this industry for another 30 years if
not longer so I want the title to hold and have when I need it. I work
directly alongside P.Eng. engineers so its much easier as my work is a lot
closer to electronic engineers than most software.

For someone not requiring it there are often provisions on each regulatory
body's to get it down the line by providing cases of past work experience
validated by a P.Eng. no matter when it happened.

------
johlindenbaum
Sort of relevant: In Canada the word "Engineer" is protected. While I am a
Computer Scientist, I can not call myself a Software Engineer (or any form of
Engineer), unlike in the US. In Canada you must have graduated from an
Engineering College of a University to use the title.

~~~
binarymax
I was at a networking event once, and handed a gentleman my business card. My
title listed on the card was 'Software Architect'. He himself was an actual
Architect (who designs physical structures), and he became upset and claimed I
had absolutely no right to that title. I had never given it much thought until
that point, but some folks are very protective over that sort of thing.

~~~
zalzane
I dunno about software architects, but it's not terribly surprising that
people are defensive over the engineering title.

The difference in difficulty between computer science courses and the
engineering courses is like night and day, so it doesn't really surprise me
when my EE/CE friends are frustrated when compsci majors try to call
themselves engineers.

~~~
npsimons
If a University's CS courses aren't hard, their CS grads will be worthless.
Not only that, but if their CS program doesn't include at least the same
freshman level classes that the other majors have to take (phys, chem, EE,
etc), then their CS grads will be ill-equipped to work in the domains they
need to.

The attitude you describe of your EE/CE friends very much reminded of a
fortune file quote that's been floating around for quite some time:

"Yes, I am a real piece of work. One thing we learn at ULowell is how to flame
useless hacking non-EE's like you. I am superior to you in every way by
training and expertise in the technical field. Anyone can learn how to hack,
but Engineering doesn't come nearly as easily. Actually, I'm not trying to
offend all you CS majors out there, but I think EE is one of the hardest
majors/grad majors to pass. Fortunately, I am making it." \-- "Warrior
Diagnostics" (wardiag@sky.COM)

"Being both an EE and an asshole at the same time must be a terrible burden
for you. This isn't really a flame, just a casual observation. Makes me glad I
was a CS major, life is really pleasant for me. Have fun with your chosen mode
of existence!" \-- Jim Morrison (morrisj@mist.cs.orst.edu)

~~~
nrivadeneira
I graduated with an ME degree and I now work as a software developer. I find
that the traditional engineering coursework is more difficult than what I find
with regards to CS. It's pretty easy to become a self-taught developer and
even go through the online courses coming from MIT, etc. It's significantly
more difficult to do the same for traditional engineering.

In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of
failure in software doesn't often result in death.

~~~
npsimons
_In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of
failure in software doesn't often result in death._

That's nice; perhaps you should tell it to the victims of the Therac-25. Or
maybe I'll remember it next time I'm writing some real-time software to
control something silly like missile guidance. More and more software every
day goes into controlling vital systems in our world . . .

And how often do certified professional engineers design something critical?
Does every circuit that goes into a consumer electronics device need to be
ultra-safe?

I'll grant you, there are a lot of shitty "software engineers" that have no
business writing critical software. And many CS programs are severely lacking.
But I picked up electronics in high school in my spare time, which makes me
about as much an EE as your self-taught development skills make you a software
engineer or architect.

What gets me is the arrogance, in particular since the Iron Ring is supposed
to carry with it a reminder that everyone is fallible, and to have humility in
the face of that. More often than not, things like the iron ring set people
apart, for better or for worse. There are plenty of hard things that people's
live depend upon that nobody gets accredited for. Having some humility, and
empathy, would go a long ways towards making Professional Engineers not just
better people, but better Engineers.

~~~
nrivadeneira
I agree that there is a lot of arrogance in engineering (I can't say I'm
innocent either). I think the big difference is that the term "engineer" gets
thrown around in software way more than it does in traditional engineering
disciplines. The result is that the term "engineer" gets diluted for both
software engineers and traditional engineers. That sort of dilution is not
common in fields such as mechanical or biomedical engineering.

Having picked up electronics in your spare time, I doubt you'd go around
calling yourself an electrical engineer. On the flip side, it happens all the
time where self-taught programmers will call themselves software engineers.

Finally, I don't see how you can disagree that software failures don't often
result in death. I never said they "never" result in death. It's just that
software applications that have life-threatening consequences aren't nearly as
common as in traditional engineering. See: cars, bridges, building structure,
ropes, pulleys, levers, bolts etc. I'd argue these are more commonplace than
missile guidance systems.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
_cars, bridges, building structure_

Those three things right there commonly have embedded software monitoring or
controlling them. As far as levers and bolts go, a lot of them have sensors
monitored by software for stress.

I really don't think most people, even software developers, realize how
pervasive software is in their lives.

~~~
nrivadeneira
"As far as levers and bolts go, a lot of them have sensors monitored by
software for stress."

That's in the far minority of situations. As part of my ME curriculum, I've
worked with these types of sensors. It's very rare you'll find them monitoring
bolts and levers.

It's true that software is extremely pervasive, however I believe you're
overestimating the critical nature of it in most applications. Cars, bridges,
buildings: Most critical failure points are mechanical. There's certainly a
lot of software the goes into regulating a car, but if there's a failure in
either the software or mechanics of the car, mechanical failure will most
often be the more serious issue.

~~~
stephencanon
> Most critical failure points are mechanical.

Given that many mechanical and structural components are designed with the
assistance of software that analyzes the stresses they are subjected to (and
sometimes little or no analysis is performed beyond software simulation), one
might question if it’s even possible to underestimate the role of software.

~~~
nrivadeneira
You make an excellent point. Though I think that the 'responsibility of an
engineer' that is discussed in regards to the Iron Ring relates to it. It's up
to the engineer to ensure that his design is sound regardless of any other
factors.

------
amackera
So strange to see this popping up on Hacker News. I always thought of it as a
sort of obscure Canadian tradition (even many people within Canada have no
idea what my ring represents, and ask me about it occasionally).

The ring is a great tradition, it brings engineers together with a sense of
obligation and identity; however, in the effort of full disclosure, non-
Canadian HNers should be aware that some people decide not to be ringed on
ethical grounds, citing possible sexist and elitist connotations in the
traditional and the ritual itself.

------
nealabq
Upon reading this, I wanted one. With inscriptions reminding me of the
theoretical and the practical aspects of my craft. Maybe "λf.(λx.f (x x))
(λx.f (x x))" and "10 PRINT "Hello World" 20 GOTO 10".

But is that really the point? To proclaim how clever (I imagine) I am.

I think the ring is meant to be a reminder that I'm part of something bigger,
something important. And that I have a responsibility to other engineers, and
also to everyone else. That's why I try to make my code comprehensible to the
engineer 5 years down the road. That's the "why" of open-source.

So that's why I think the ring is simple. Because individually I'm fallible
and often wrong, and I need reminding.

~~~
windsurfer
I think having the ring is one thing, but earning it is another.

~~~
adamgravitis
It's actually _not_ about having "earned" it; it's not meant to be a token of
having completed the degree, or having been stupendously good at some
technical piece of work.

It's meant as a reminder to the obligation you have to society not to cut
corners on safety, and that your responsibilities to your employer do not
outweigh those you have to Canadians generally.

~~~
flashmedium
and an engineer needs a ring to remind him of the above?

~~~
saraid216
The Order has been coming up on HN recently because a number of err...
unethical practices are being implemented by engineers who are theoretically
"just doing their job". There was a request that engineers refuse to do such
jobs on ethical grounds, and this was one of the traditions pointed out as
doing exactly that.

------
HorizonXP
My Iron Ring has been a conversation starter wherever I travel, and I've only
had it for 5 years.

Any time I'm in the Valley, people recognize the ring and ask if I went to
Waterloo. Funny thing is that I did, but I usually try to explain to them that
all Canadian engineering graduates wear it, not just Waterloo.

I was even in Italy with my then-girlfriend-now-fiancee, and I had someone
strike up a conversation with me because of the ring; they realized that we
were likely Canadian, and started telling us about their son.

The Iron Ring really does establish a type of brother/sister-hood amongst us
Canadian engineers. It's a nice feeling.

~~~
format
I was at the grocery store and the cashier motioned to my hand and showed me
her ring and we had a short discussion. I felt happy that I had this bond with
a person I had never met and then immediately very sad that she was working as
a cashier in a grocery store.

~~~
stygiansonic
I've also had a few interesting discussions. One was also with a cashier, who
I discovered had graduated from my alma mater with a degree in geological
engineering. She was now working on poetry and other writing and she seemed
genuinely happy with what she was doing. More power to her.

Another was when I visited New York for the marathon. Ran into another fellow
at the airport who recognized I was from Canada because of my MEC backpack. I
then noticed he had on a ring and turned out he was a professor who had once
taught at my alma mater.

------
Tiktaalik
Non-Engineers notice my iron ring surprisingly often (ie. "oh my old roommate
was an engineer"). It's a great conversation starter.

~~~
stygiansonic
Agreed. It's quite easy to notice someone wearing one and that easily segues
into questions about which discipline they chose, what school they went to and
inevitably, how they use relatively little of their engineering/school
knowledge in their day-to-day job. ;)

------
krs
There is an American equivalent to the iron ring, but the organization behind
it expressly prohibits membership to CS and Software Engineering graduates
last time I checked.

Screw them. I got one on my own. I had a custom jewelist take the cladding off
a simple band of white gold. I wear it for the same reason mentioned by
others: to remind me of my obligations to my profession, my customers and
clients, and to the public at large.

------
moioci
Instead of an iron ring, should software Engineers be awarded an infinite
loop, possibly in the form of a Moebius strip?

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
The science writer Simon Singh wears a Mobius scarf (a neck scarf sewed
together as a Mobius strip). Pretty easy to do if you wanted to.

I'm guessing he's not the only one but he's the one I've come across.

------
sergiotapia
Is there something like this for Software developers? We make the world go
round and round; shouldn't we also have something this beautiful?

~~~
koenigdavidmj
For most of us, people don't die when we fuck up.

~~~
ISL
To waste someone's time is to deprive them of a little bit of life.

~~~
maaku
Only if they're not enjoying it.

------
JeanPierre
Curiously, NTNU/NTH got a similar tradition which officially started in 1914,
8-11 years earlier[1, 2]. I wonder if these rings or the "identity crises"
(the NTH-ring was designed to give former NTH (now engineering) students an
identity, whereas this iron ring represents the obligations and ethics) have
some correlation or not.

[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTH_Ring>

[2]: <http://www.ntnu.no/ntnu/old/glos/glos_nr.5_1995/ringen.html>

------
seanc
I know a handful of electrical engineers with scars on their fingers from
getting these things too close to a hot board.

It's a beautiful idea, but sometimes you don't want a high wattage resistor on
your dominant hand...

------
plam
I never wore mine. Got one mostly to be able to go through the ritual with
friends.

OT: Funny to see that the term 'engineer' is held in high regard in Canada but
here in UK there's no such connotation.

~~~
dreen
Well the Chartered Engineer title awarded by the IET was always held high in
regard at my uni (which, in theory at least, is focused on Engineering).
Unfortunately for me though, there is little point spending time, energy and
money to acquire one as a Software Engineer, as it applies to Mech/Civil etc
schools more.

~~~
arethuza
I believe it is possible to qualify as a CEng through the BCS - though not
sure why anyone would do this.

~~~
dreen
True but in my case I'm actually a Software Engineer with a BEng

------
bw2
While this will like devolve into a trite discussion about why programming
computers is just the same as building a bridge, it's offensive that the
software industry takes for granted just how much work goes into earning
something like this ring versus coding JavaScript.

I worked my way through college doing web development while studying 80 hours
per week on top of that for years to get my engineering degrees. Having
systematic devaluation of that is deflating, if not wrong.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
This is because the industry, like most groups, values outputs, not inputs.

The skills you have, how you use them and where you learned them are inputs
which means that on their own they are largely irrelevant.

It's entirely possible to make a good career, delivering genuine value to
organisations and individuals, doing work you can be proud of without having
any understanding of CS beyond that you'll pick up during your day to day work
and a little reading around the subject. I've worked with great programmers
who graduated in science, history, psychology, electronic engineering and so
on. These were people who could go toe to toe technically with CS graduates
and in some cases they bought things to the table that added significant value
which were relatively rare in people with a more conventional computing
background. Why does the fact of having not studied computer science formally
make them any less valuable?

Bottom line: yes you worked very hard to get your degree and made a
significant financial investment in it, but what's important now is what you
do with it and that's what you'll be judged on. If you can't translate that
knowledge into results why should it be significant?

------
malkia
Game developers carry rings too... two around their eyes due to crunching :)

~~~
saraid216
Sure that's not the red ring of death?

------
turing
In looking into the United States' adoption of this[1], I noticed that there
is actually a fledgling organization aimed at computer scientists, 'The Pledge
of the Computing Professional'.

1\. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer>

------
traeblain
The US version of this group is the Order of the Engineer:

<http://www.order-of-the-engineer.org/>

------
dsaber
Even though I'm currently living in Silicon Valley, I still where my Canadian
engineering ring. Many people ask me what it's for. Usually, people are
surprised to learn about it. In contrast, it feels good that in Canada I don't
have answer similar questions: most know what it's for.

------
JimmaDaRustla
They need something like this for auto mechanics - they don't feel obligated
for any responsibility...

~~~
protomyth
You deal with the wrong auto mechanics. The local one replaced a plastic part
in the door with one he cut out of aluminum and charged 1/4th the cost of a
replacement plastic one.

------
Morphling
I really like the simplicity. Finnish versions are kind a lame. (
[http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/multimedia/archive/00059/sormu...](http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/multimedia/archive/00059/sormus_59700a.jpg)
)

------
Serow225
I got mine in 2003 for a B. Sc in Mechanical Engineering, but since I ended up
going to work at a software development company, I decided not to wear it -
just felt wrong. This was a personal choice, YMMV :)

~~~
dsshimel
I also got a BS in MechE, then got a job as a software engineer, so now my
girlfriend wears my ethics ring. I guess we're exempt from programming
morally!

~~~
proland
It is illegal to wear the ring in any fashion if you are not a practicing
engineer (as you should have been told when you were obligated).

~~~
napoleond
"Illegal" is probably the wrong word to use here, since the iron ring is not
governed by any municipal, provincial, or federal law.

I have a B.Sc. EE and yet work mostly in web/mobile software. I don't consider
or present myself as a "practicing engineer" but I still wear the ring as a
reminder of the obligation I have towards anything I create for other people
to use. I probably wouldn't give it to my girlfriend to wear, but to each
their own.

~~~
proland
Actually it is the right word. The ring is a registered symbol of the
Corporation of the Seven Wardens, and wearing or displaying one without their
permission (via having been obligated) or attempting to sell one is illegal in
exactly the same way that using any other entity's trademark without their
permission is illegal.

That said, if you've been obligated and are working in a technical field, but
don't really consider yourself an 'engineer' you can still wear it, so long as
you hold yourself to the values it represents.

~~~
napoleond
Touché--I mistook your use of the term "illegal" to mean "criminal" but
obviously overlooked the civil implications.

------
joyeuse6701
UCLA '12, stainless was our only option if I recall. Even amongst my
engineering buddies, few actually knew of the ritual/ring and that they could
obtain one! I have to say I like mine =)

~~~
nvarsj
This is pretty neat. I'm a 2005 engineering graduate (CSE) and never knew
about this. I wonder if I can get one ex post facto.

~~~
joyeuse6701
You might, given that graduation is coming up they usually have some booth in
between Boelter and math&sciences to get your ring size and order in.

------
whaevr
(Facet)nating.. The things you learn from just casually browsing HN

------
spiritplumber
I wish our school did this, I feel I missed out on a cool ritual.

Can't wear rings on grounds of you don't wear jewelry in a workshop :)

Me and my significant other cast and etched pendants for each other though. :)

------
danshapiro
"Early attempts to extend The Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer to the
United States were unsuccessful due to complications including copyright
issues."

------
d0c5
My father has one, I saw it many years ago and never knew what it meant, if
anything. Thanks man!

------
dcuthbertson
So, who has the one ring to rule them all?

------
drd
After introducing the ring, still bridges collapsed in Quebec while in service
not at construction and people died. I am not sure how effective is this ring.

~~~
simlevesque
What the hell did I just read ? It was not bridges, but a single overpass that
fell and it is unrelated to the ring or engineers. The main problem was that
two governements failed to identify the weaknesses because they wanted to save
money. I despise people like you who try to link two totally unrelated facts
to sound smart.

<http://www.cevc.gouv.qc.ca/>

~~~
drd
Ooops, I apologize pal, I guess I hurt your feelings, I didn’t mean that. But
here is another example:

[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/07/30/montreal-tunnel-
coll...](http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/07/30/montreal-tunnel-collapse-
viger-tunnel_n_1721175.html)

BTW, I don’t need to sound smart and still I like you.

~~~
guiomie
My friend, this is just politics. This is a case of poor leadership trying to
blame someone else for their own error (lack of investment in infrastructure).
This as nothing to do with the iron ring.

