
Uber to ignore German ban despite being ruled 'illegal' - ASquare
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-09/02/uber-germany-wide-ban
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lispm
As a German I'd say ignoring local laws and regulations is not a promising way
to do business here in Germany or the EU.

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shapov
I think Uber is overlooking the fact that EU has much better consumer
protections in place, than those in the US. Lets see if it pays off for them.

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delg
Yeah, why should it matter that your business model is illegal/regulatory
arbitrage? Progress!

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ASquare
They're certainly consistently aggressive no matter where they are...

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ForHackernews
God, what a bunch of d-bags. We live in a society of laws, and you don't get
to just ignore the courts, whether you're the NSA or Uber.

Here's hoping Germany seizes all their accounts with German banks.

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erikpukinskis
I agree Uber is a bunch of d-bags but you are completely wrong.

You _do_ get to disobey the courts. It's called civil disobedience. You
disobey them. You take your licks. It's a cornerstone of progress.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's immoral or a threat to
society. That's an entirely separate judgment we must make.

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ForHackernews
If a court issues a specific injunction telling you, as an individual, not to
do X, and you go ahead and do X, then you would get punished severely--up to
and including jail time.

The problem, as I see it, is that we aren't holding large organizations
accountable to nearly the same degree as private citizens.

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true_religion
If they violate the injuction, the director of their EU subsidiary can go to
jail. Its in the documents.

Also they can be fined up to 250k per ride. I don't think they're getting a
slap on the wrist here.

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chasing
> Violations will result in a fine against Uber of 250,000 euros ($328,108)
> per ride. (via the Deutsche Welle article)

Is the plan to also ignore the massive fines that are likely to result?

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_up
I think the press got this wrong. The max possible fine is 250.000 per trial.

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viraptor
Is it the Uber app/office or Uber drivers that will continue to work despite
the ban? They can say what they want in the press releases, but it's the
drivers that are at risk and will be making the decision.

(or did I misunderstand and it's actually the company that will get fined?)

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gerbal
It appears to be the drivers who will be fined.

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Bud
Here is the specific sentence from the Deutsche Welle article that is relevant
to this question:

 _" Violations will result in a fine against Uber of 250,000 euros ($328,108)
per ride."_

So at least according to that story, Uber will be fined, not the drivers.

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wfunction
250k euros per _ride_? How do they justify that?

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chasing
The idea is to get the violator to stop breaking the law. It's less about
fairness and more about deterring criminal behavior. That's the justification.

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hsod
Sounds pretty similar to the much-derided MPAA/RIAA lawsuits. This probably
won't work out too well for the German government PR-wise, at least around
here.

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boomlinde
> Sounds pretty similar to the much-derided MPAA/RIAA lawsuits.

Yes, if you dismiss the fact that Uber is a millions-of-dollars business and
the individuals targeted by the much-derided MPAA/RIAA lawsuits were not.

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xa180
What exactly do I gain by using Uber? I see it's all the rage on the internet,
but I still fail to grasp what exactly it is that I'm gaining through its
usage. I'm from a medium-sized city (500k-1m) in Central (or Eastern?) Europe
and I can use either public transportation or get a cab literally wherever I
may be.

Why would I want to have a non-registered driver who does not adhere to taxi-
standards pick me up and pay provision to a multi-billion dollar company
that's trying to set itself up as a monopoly?

What niche is Uber filling in that I'm unaware of? Is this the re-invention of
an mp3-player as an iPod? Because it sounds cool?

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SeoxyS
Taxis in america (especially San Francisco, where Uber is from) are horrible
and downright dangerous. Even the shittiest Uber drivers are better than the
average taxi driver. And even if you _wanted_ to hail a cab, your best bet is
to try to hail one on the street, because if you call, there's a 50+% chance
your taxi won't even show up.

And let's not even get into the joke that we call public transportation here.

This is the problem it solves. A problem that is not nearly as pronounced in
Europe.

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burgers
This is absolutely untrue. I have taken taxis very often in many US cities
including SF while I lived in the Bay Area. Many drivers drive for both taxi
services and Uber depending on the day. How is the same exact driver suddenly
dangerous in a taxi as opposed to his own car hailed via a smartphone app?

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Crito
Put it this way then:

In America, there is a widespread _perception_ that Taxi companies have shit
service, and that Taxi drivers are frequently untrustworthy or discriminatory.

Whether or not the perception is accurate, it is _definitely_ true that the
perception exists. Uber provides value to American consumers because American
consumers find that the faults they perceive in traditional taxi services do
not apply to Uber.

Lest you doubt that I am correct: I am an American, and the above _are_ my
beliefs. I can assure you that I have stated my beliefs accurately.

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burgers
I made an earlier comment about that perception you have. You are likely and
upper class US citizen who looks down on things like taxis and the bus. If
"providing value" means playing into stereotypes, then I guess you are
correct. I also am an US Citizen, born and raised, and your comments make be
believe that you are a bigot against the lower classes and see them as dirty.
Or maybe your issue is that there are too many non whites driving taxis. I can
assure you that I have stated my beliefs accurately.

As a side note, the term "value" has been so overused at this point that when
people use it I tend to think they are idealists and I don't take their
comments as seriously as if they had not used the term.

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Crito
> _You are likely and upper class US citizen who looks down on things like
> taxis and the bus._

Lolno. I own a car, but commute every day by bus. I am middle class but,
surprise surprise, still have places I want to get to. The only success I have
ever had with taxis is if I ambush them when they are waiting outside of
airports and train stations. Calling them is always a unmitigated shit-fest.
This is both Seattle and Philadelphia. Philadelphia is significantly worse;
cabs are unhailable (unless you ambush them at 30th street station) and they
hang up on you when you give them an address in west or north philly.

> _Or maybe your issue is that there are too many non whites driving taxis._

Eat shit and fuck off.

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onion2k
There's nothing else Uber could have done. If they withdrew from Germany, even
only temporarily, it'd be seen as a way to restrict Uber's business in every
country they operate in. It'd pretty much be an admission that they don't know
if they're operating legally.

While the German government are _threatening_ to fine drivers Uber are still
ok. If the government actually fines someone successfully, I imagine Uber will
be in _big_ trouble.

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dbroockman
When Uber re-launched quasi-legally in Austin, TX, some drivers there told me
Uber promised to pay any fines they incurred. Whether the German government
fines Uber and/or the drivers, maybe they're just hoping to throw money at the
problem.

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Xylakant
If they do I'll hail Uber cars all day and report. It's 250k a pop, let's see
how fast we can transfer 16B USD to germanys funds :)

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Bud
If Uber loses its appeal on this, and then _continues_ to ignore the court's
ruling, then I think this will be a story. Until then, I'd say that Uber will
continue to operate and the court won't do much about it, while the appeal is
pending.

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Xylakant
It's not the courts decision to do or not do anything about it. This as a
civil case based on the laws on unfair competition, so it's their competitors
[1] choice to enforce or not. IANAL, but as far as I know an appeal will not
delay this time. Uber might bully the competitor into not enforcing as they
did with the taxi company that won a similar case in Berlin, but it's much
less likely since this time it's not a small business running 10 cabs like
last time.

[1] roughly the equivalent of the german taxi company union

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Kequc
Is it impossible for Uber drivers to obtain commercial licences? It seems that
is the concern here.

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Xylakant
No, they could. It just wouldn't be (as) profitable.

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Kequc
Pfffffff sounds like the law already existed and a court has simply
acknowledged Uber's drivers are breaking it - we'll see how profitable having
to pay heavy fines is.

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pbreit
Fine amount seems cruel and unusual. $250k for giving someone a ride? Really?

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Xylakant
It's that high because Uber did not comply to earlier requests. Early fines
were 1k a pop, this is the repeat offender bonus. (still, it's up to 250k).

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Afforess
Good. It seems bizarre that something as ordinary as a trip in a car needs
extensive regulations. Obsolete laws should be challenged.

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pjc50
Why do we have to drive on a particular side of the road, anyway?

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enraged_camel
Or stop at a red light? Why are we letting _lights_ limit our freedoms?!

