
Is college worth the cost? Many recent graduates don’t think so - daegloe
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/09/30/is-college-worth-the-cost-many-recent-graduates-dont-think-so/
======
quanticle
I'm frustrated by articles like these that lump all of "college" into one
bucket, as if the variety of degrees that one can earn at any four year
institution can be combined into a single undifferentiated mass. Is college
worth the cost? The answer, as with so many things in life is, "It depends."
If you go to college with a clear idea of what sorts of careers your degree is
going to open up, and what the earnings potential of those careers are then
college can definitely be worth it. Is an engineering degree worth the money?
Given the numbers I've seen fly around whenever Hacker News talks about
engineering and programmer salaries, I'd have hard time arguing no. Is a
degree in, say, Art History worth it? I don't know. I don't know anything
about the sorts of careers Art History majors get, and what the costs of an
Art History degree are.

~~~
austenallred
But that's exactly the point.

All growing up my generation was told, "Just get a degree! It doesn't matter
what it's in, it doesn't matter what it costs, just get a degree!" There was
no other acceptable route, so all the "good" kids went to college to get
degrees.

That leaves parts of my generation racking up student loans they literally
cannot pay off with the careers they will get, all the while assuming they'll
be alright financially because "degree!"

Of course, college is a big bundle of things: Friends, connections, good time,
hopefully skills to get a job. Of course, college is a great thing and
completely necessary for some people. But there are a lot of people going into
so much debt they would have been in a better position financially by not
going.

~~~
WalterBright
I'm left with the question of how hard can it be to google the job prospects
of the degree you're interested in? It's never been easier to discover that
sort of thing.

Even during the medieval (i.e. pre internet) times I attended college, the pay
for various majors were well known. Highest was chemical, lowest astronomy.

~~~
Frondo
This is something that is super-frustrating to communicate in these
discussions. I end up talking with people from the previous generation a lot,
and this is something I hear, "how did you not know that that was dumb and
shallow?"

Here's how: from grade school up onto high school, kids in my generation were
told, by literally every adult around, "get a degree, it doesn't matter what
in, you'll get a good job." The language never differed, there was never talk
of trades, of military service, of starting a business, none of that. _Every
single adult and authority figure said the same thing_.

When you're young, even if you start questioning stuff like that, when
everyone you turn to says the same thing, where are you supposed to go for
other points of view?

~~~
WalterBright
Isn't part of the point of college to no longer unquestioningly accept what
you're told by adults?

How can you go through 4 years of college and never even once google starting
salaries in your chose profession? And none of your peers do either? And not
notice any of the constant flow of articles on reddit and hackernews about
this issue?

This is neither unknown nor secret nor obscure knowledge.

> Every single adult and authority figure said the same thing.

Not me. I've said otherwise for 40 years.

~~~
austenallred
I said, "to hell with this" and dropped out, so I may not be the best person
to ask, but I think "common knowledge" is more difficult to question than most
people think. Especially when you don't recognize it as such.

Overall, the frustrating thing to watch is that the kids saddled with six
figure student loans, a generic degree and no special skills were just playing
by the rules. They were trying to find their passion and studying really hard
just like good boys and girls should, then life kicks them in the teeth.

I think people in college now are much more cognizant of it, but five years
ago people didn't talk about student loans as much.

~~~
calinet6
Even five years ago, the student loans were significantly lower, right? I
graduated 9 years ago, and I paid exponentially less. I can't even believe it
when I see the tuition costs, even at my public university.

I find myself wanting to continue to give people the same advice I received,
the same advice that served me so well, and the advice I believe in
strongly—go to college. It will make you a better person. You will become
yourself there, and improve yourself and grow. Better, improved, grown, whole
people are the ones who earn more money, but that's a side-effect, not a goal.

But when tuition is _four times_ what it was when I found that advice
invaluable—it's much more difficult. Even in this thread I'm still giving the
same narrative around the intangible and immeasurable value of a college
education (I believe in it still, very strongly), but the cost is out of
whack.

This is what an economic imbalance feels like, folks. There's beginning to be
a huge rift between the perceived value of a university education (invaluable,
extreme, incomparable experience, must-do, must-have) and the price (extremely
high).

We cannot comprehend it. After all, who can put a price tag on being a better,
improved, more whole person? Is it $20,000? Sure. What if we double it?
$40,000? Sure, still invaluable. $80,000? Remains invaluable, intangible,
unmeasurably important. $160,000? How can we deal with this? How can we put a
price tag on a whole experience that remains, throughout all the number
shifting, invaluable?

Needs intervention.

I still fully believe that the university experience is invaluable. But that's
not the problem. The problem is that it's become overpriced because we are
mentally unable to reconcile the immensity of its effect on a life with a
single price tag. Thus, it is open to economic "play."

So we rail against it and come up with alternatives, and rationalize that it's
not as invaluable as we thought it was after all, and, well, why don't we take
some parts here and connect them with this series of tubes and voila! This is
the same thing for only a fraction of the price; why would you ever go to that
big overpriced agglomerated monster anyway when you can get these results
right here?

All the while, I can't help but see holes in the real quality of the
experience of growing up. You have to be smart about it, I guess.

Clearly, there's a reason this is an argument, and not a clear-cut case of
college being valuable so you should go do it, and the reason is a price tag.

At least it's simple.

------
blisterpeanuts
Higher education is important and must continue. The problem is that, in
America, costs are out of control. Some blame it on the ease of obtaining
student loans; some blame it on poor management, decrease in public funding,
decrease in alumni donations, reduction in federal research grants.

Probably it's a combination of all of the above. But when the average private
school is trying to charge $50K+ per year for an undergraduate education, and
the average public school is over $10K per year, something's seriously wrong.

I would tighten up the student loan system, cap it at $10K per year, and then
let the universities figure out how to roll back their ridiculous tuitions
that have risen many times faster than has the cost of living.

You could take an old warehouse, subdivide into about 10 lecture halls and
classrooms, get a bunch of chairs and whiteboards, and hire 20 professors.
That's in essence all a university should be. In this day and age, of course,
you could add some online access, at a minimum stream the lectures in real
time which costs almost nothing.

These glitzy $100 million "student centers", multimillion dollar athletic
facilities, on-campus coffee shops and restaurants, dorms, hordes of
administrative officials, assistant deans, etc. pulling down six figure
incomes when they don't even teach -- that's just lifestyle crap that has
nothing to do with education (although, sports teams can sometimes bring in
big bucks). It all costs money -- maintenance, insurance, expansion, lawyers,
advertising, marketing -- money, money, money. That's what has done in the
American university system. Some of these campuses have turned into towns-
plus-shopping malls and have lost their original vision.

~~~
scintill76
> I would tighten up the student loan system, cap it at $10K per year, and
> then let the universities figure out how to roll back their ridiculous
> tuitions that have risen many times faster than has the cost of living.

I suppose they'll be forced to when their student numbers dive because nobody
can afford it anymore, but what happens in the meantime? Only the rich get to
go to school? Or if the public funding tap gets shut off, are private lenders
going to step in and just make it cost more? Lowering the "expectation" that
going to school is what all good American youths do is another solution that
gets proposed sometimes (though maybe at odds with your premise "higher
education is important and must continue"), so maybe lower attendance rates is
acceptable, but I wouldn't want it to fall along class lines, or any other
uneven distribution of demographics.

You could gradually step the funding down each year, but it seems like the
steps would either be so small it would take generations to reform, or so big
that it's basically as hard as doing it all at once.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
Perhaps in addition to loan caps, the states should increase grants to their
public universities, and that will help keep down tuition.

The private schools, however, are kind of on their own. They'll probably need
to cut back on the frills and hope students still want to apply. We're
probably going to see a few closures of private schools over the next few
years.

------
spike021
This semester I have two "fun" professors. One always finishes class 25-30
minutes early- just completely stops lecturing for the day, not for questions
or anything. Add up every single class he does it for the whole semester and
the sum is probably worth about a third of the entire semester. That's quite a
bit of money down the drain. A second professor that I have has openly stated
he has "stolen" and only _slightly_ modified (his words, not mine) slides from
some other member of faculty here (who I think got them from Stanford); the
system we use for classwork/quizzes/etc. is from some other university and he
didn't even know when we'd have our midterm because he hasn't even started to
think about writing one yet since he "can't get it from anyone else and needs
to write one" on his own (again, his words).

The latter situation has been rather commonplace with many classes I've taken
here for my degree. It's just not right. I feel like my time and money are
being wasted, and rather than gaining valuable knowledge and experience, this
is all rather just a detrimental experience in and of itself.

No, it's not worth the cost. From what everyone has told me or everything I've
read in the past, we need degrees otherwise the chance of landing a job (in my
case software engineering) plummets and only some are lucky enough to be
successful without one.

And so here I am, losing out on more even than just money with not much to
show for it.

~~~
beachstartup
_> this is all rather just a detrimental experience in and of itself._

heck, that's nothing! wait until they lose one of your exams, or you write an
essay that goes against a professor's political beliefs. that's when the real
fun starts and you start making time/money cost benefit analyses with your own
ethics!

make a deal with the devil, or waste several thousands dollars and 10 weeks?

...then again, if that isn't real world experience, what is???

------
randomname2
Interesting quotes from the article:

"Two thirds of students who graduated in the last nine years and whose debt
matches or exceeds the national average do not believe their degree was worth
the cost."

Gallup’s executive director for education and workforce development Brandon
Busteed speaking to the WSJ:

“When you look at recent graduates with student loans it gets really ugly,
really fast. If alumni don’t feel they’re getting their money’s worth, we risk
this tidal wave of demand for higher education crashing down.”

As Bill Ackman had warned:

"When asked if he was concerned about bubbles forming in debt markets as
central banks around the world continue to keep interest rates near zero,
Ackman cited student loans as his biggest concern.

“If you think about the trillion dollars of student loans we have outstanding,
there’s no way students are going to pay it back,” Ackman said. He foresees a
future where debt-laden students protest government officials, leading to some
form of forgiveness.

The $1.3 trillion in student loan debt outstanding in the U.S. has drawn
parallel among some investors to the subprime mortgage bubble of the
mid-t0-late 2000s."

~~~
the_watcher
I really don't like the idea of loan forgiveness (despite being a potential
beneficiary), but I really do expect there to be a tipping point soon.

~~~
Falkon1313
Even for predatory lending? Our culture basically tells kids that they _have_
to do this _or else_. Preying on vulnerable kids who are just getting out on
their own for the first time and do not have any experience dealing with
finances on their own in the real world over long terms.

~~~
the_watcher
I understand the issues very, very well. I have student loans and grew up in
the current generation. I'd benefit substantially. I don't like the idea of it
(unless it came with compensation for those who did pay theirs off, even if
it's less compensation - maybe some kind of tax credit?), but I agree that
we're getting closer and closer to the point where the issues with forgiveness
are simply overwhelmed.

------
qrendel
I regret going to college, and I'm fairly certain I wouldn't encourage my kids
to do it unless they really wanted to... and had good scholarships to diminish
the costs.

If you compare the long-term earnings, lets say over 50 years, of taking all
the money that would have been spent on college, and especially if you add
private school tuition to that (which many parents would in order to get into
a good college in the first place), depending on the exact numbers college can
be an outright losing proposition.

Some quick examples for investing your school tuition:

$300,000 at 5% interest invested at 22 == $3,440,219.94 at age 62.

$10,000 average private school tuition invested each year from 6 to 18 +
$100,000 college tuition invested at 18, 5% interest rate == $6,472,837.02 at
62

vs

$10,000 avg invested annually starting at 22, 5% interest == $2,312,827.95 at
62

$20,000 avg invested annually starting at 22, 5% interest == $4,625,655.91 at
62

Of course there's lots of ways to play with the numbers, and other
considerations to take into account. Do you really, really want a specific
career that requires a college degree, or do you just want a middle-class
lifestyle? Is that career goal realistic, or will you just end up another
depressed burnout? Plus most graduates won't be able to invest $20,000 per
year starting at 22, that's highly optimistic, and most people who don't go to
college won't have absolutely zero lifetime earnings either.

The opportunity cost of time spent attending schools you don't enjoy versus
doing other things with the "best years of your life" is another factor, too.

~~~
crdoconnor
5% interest risk free is a pipe dream.

~~~
qrendel
Are college degrees risk free by any means? Especially since degrees now often
confine you to a narrow career path compared to what was available for
graduates in previous generations. But point taken - a more detailed analysis
should consider the risk-adjusted returns for each path (college vs non-
college).

------
littletimmy
In principle, this should not be a question. College is NOT something that
should be looked upon as an "investment" requiring ROI. Sure enough, in
civilized countries like Germany, or Sweden, or Denmark, college isn't thought
off as a significant expense that requires ROI calculations because it is
free. That's how it should be, given that the market does not understand the
value of education.

It is only in this corporate-run hyper-capitalistic country that we're having
this ridiculous conversation. For US graduates, college may indeed not be
"worth it".

~~~
qrendel
Except that _someone_ still has to pay for it, and unless the cost of college
is trivial then that means society still has to make choices about whether the
ROI for doing so is actually worth it. Resources spent giving people an
education they won't actually need is money that could have been spent on
other things like healthcare, disease research, or enriching their lives in
other ways. The free college of other countries still comes with its own
cost,; it's just hidden from the individual members of the public by being
spread across the whole taxbase.

If you want to learn and absorb knowledge there are many cheaper ways to do
it, e.g. libraries or MOOCs. But that won't give you a special status
signaling symbol (the degree) that you can use to get past HR departments into
the hiring process. That creates positional externalities that are a huge
expense for society beyond just enriching people's lives through knowledge and
education.

~~~
Falkon1313
>Except that someone still has to pay for it, and unless the cost of college
is trivial

Compared to the price, the cost is trivial. If the price wasn't hyperinflated,
it wouldn't be an issue.

We see similar things in healthcare. "But _someone_ has to pay for this $40
inhaler!" (Which only costs $1 in any other industrialized country.)

What society needs to make choices about is whether the ROI of price-gouging
everyone for things that we all agree that everyone needs is actually worth
it. Resources spent giving rich people more money that they won't actually
need is money that could have been spent on other things like healthcare,
disease research, or enriching their lives in other ways. Like, for example,
education.

------
mistermcgruff
All I know is that I spent two years deep in abstract algebra and other proof-
heavy classes, and it was some of the best training in rigor and
thoughtfulness I've ever had. Wouldn't trade it for the world. But, then
again, most recent grads weren't math majors. I think my university of 30k
graduated about 15 math majors a year.

------
darkmarmot
I dropped out of college with all of my classes finished but lacking high
school credits that I became retroactively deficient for... because I switched
from Engineering to A&S.

The only F in my life (generally straight-A student) was in Computer Science.

Currently: architecting, setting, developing coding standards for a Fortune
100. Computer programming is one of the few academic careers in which you can
succeed sans papers.

------
intopieces
How on earth are you going to know if an intangible investment like education
will be "worth the cost" over your entire life time?

------
hackuser
A few thoughts:

1) Do these graduates know what it's like to try to get by with a high school
diploma? Think of the level of education you had when you graduated from high
school. Regarding just jobs, the data is clear that people with college
degrees earn more.

2) College educates you not just for your first job, but for a lifetime of
jobs. And not just for careers, but for life - citzenship, family, community,
and your own personal growth, understanding of the world, of ideas, and your
well-being. To measure its value on the basis of early jobs is a mistake. They
should have paid more attention in class.

3) The idea that you can have just as much knowledge without spending 4 years
taught by experts, surrounded by peers, and utilizing the enormous capital
facilities colleges provide, is hard to believe.

4) Perhaps college isn't something that should be priced by the market. It is
of exceptional value - even if you just consider effects on lifetime income -
much more than anyone pays.

~~~
wavefunction
>>2) College educates you not just for your first job

I agree largely with your points but I would point out that if #2 on your list
is true in some regard, it's highly ineffective. People with college degrees
start unnecessary wars. People with college degrees ruin economies with
finance schemes designed for maximum personal profit over the interest in a
healthy society. People with college degrees beat their partners and children.
People with college degrees abuse substances, and they fall prey to the
ravages of induced mental health issues and poor physical health choices like
obesity or sedentary lifestyles.

In addition I've found many Americans with college degrees to be incurious
about the world outside their own life and often outright hostile to
intellectualism.

Not all people with college degrees are like this of course, but enough to
make me think that if #2 is an intended and assumed function of post-secondary
education then these institutions are not very effective in that mission when
you compare the credentialed population with the rest of us.

And yes, I have no college degree. Despite high-test scores, AP credit in
math, sciences, history and English, sports and other activities I was only
accepted to my State Schools' Engineering program out of my applications, and
only begrudgingly, which meant I had to actually write a lett er to the Dean's
office about how very very much I wanted to be an Engineer. When I got there I
realized how much of the 'education' offered was ridiculous nonsense. I had to
drop out after a year to attend to some family issues and was forced to enter
the workforce immediately doing tech support and clawed my way into
professional software development.

It's been a struggle most of the time not having a degree I can simply point
to, but that's been mostly due to having to overcome the biases of the
credentialed versus those of us with no formal credentials. I consider myself
incredibly fortunate in life though, as for example I'm composing this post
from Kolkata after taking an amazing and profound trek through the Himalayas.
None of my friends with college degrees have done this ;)

~~~
hackuser
> t's highly ineffective. People with college degrees start unnecessary wars.
> People with college degrees ruin economies with finance schemes designed for
> maximum personal profit over the interest in a healthy society. People with
> college degrees beat their partners and children. People with college
> degrees abuse substances, and they fall prey to the ravages of induced
> mental health issues and poor physical health choices like obesity or
> sedentary lifestyles. ...

Certainly it could be much more effective and we shouldn't lose sight of how
much room for improvement there is. But I'd bet that, as a group, college-
educated people are much more productive, healthier, and probably happier. Of
course, that doesn't describe any particular individual.

Have a great time on your travels. I think it's almost impossible to
understand the world without experiencing cultures far from our own. (I'm
assuming you aren't Indian.)

~~~
wavefunction
Thank you for your kind words! Upon further reflection I have to admit that I
was discounting the value of even marginal encouragement in those areas you've
mentioned. I agree that colleges and universities expose people to others with
differing backgrounds in a way that is difficult otherwise, and that is
undoubtedly a great thing.

------
seibelj
Having a college degree sends a signal that you can dedicate yourself to
education and follow through. I find employees with college degrees are better
than those without, regardless of degree.

I suggest getting a degree and putting in some hustle to get out with zero or
little debt. Scholarship, side jobs, whatever it takes.

~~~
daegloe
I was recruited to join Microsoft a while back. At the end of the 8hr day of
interviews, the VP formally offered me the job. However, he made a point of
mentioning his concern that I dropped out of college, twice. Being a cocky
young buck at the time, I in turn pointed out that the founder and (then)
Chairman of his company, Bill Gates, was a dropout. He explained to me that
there were exceptions to every rule, which was why he was extending the
opportunity, but in his experience, college was akin to bootcamp. If I
couldn't get through 4 years of doing what I was told, how could he be sure I
would do what I was told at Microsoft? I drove back to the hotel, phoned the
internal recruiter and declined the offer.

He was on to something, of course. But I'd already known that I march to the
beat of my own drum.

~~~
CydeWeys
I had a coworker once who was a college drop-out and had exactly all of the
flaws that the VP warned about in your story. He was highly intelligent, and
could have made a great software engineer, but his focus and work ethic were
terrible, and his work suffered for it terribly. He was exactly the kind of
person for whom everything was easy their whole life, then they finally
reached a level where blind intelligence alone was not sufficient, and has no
persevering skills to fall back on.

I hit that same crisis my sophomore-junior years of college, but powered
through it and finally learned the skill of hard work (which most other
students had already mastered by high school).

~~~
sotojuan
Can I ask how you got over it?

I am going through the same thing, except I _was_ in a hard high school
program but ended up in a university with an easy Comp Sci program. I am a
senior, and the graduate class I am taking this semester is the first time I
have been mentally challenged by the Comp Sci department. Because of this, I
tend to "give up" easily in other things that I am interested in but are
harder (mathematics), or I am not motivated to build apps for fun and
portfolio, even though the ideas and the languages come easy to me.

~~~
CydeWeys
Set a schedule and force yourself to spend, say, forty hours a week worrkimg
on schoolwork. And be honest with yourself and don't allow cheating. Once I
forced myself to spend a lot of time studying, the easiest thing to do was to
simply spend lots of time reading the textbooks, getting assignments perfect
before turning them in, and handling all of the optional/extra credit portions
of the programming assignments.

------
Ologn
For college classes, we were told to study three hours outside the classroom
for every hour inside the classroom. Rearranged over a four year period, that
means I spent three years in the library or at home studying algorithms, data
structures, theory of computation etc., as well as some calculus, biology,
psychology. In this rearranged sense, I spent only one year in class,
listening to lectures, talking to professors during office hours, talking with
fellow students.

Some people tell me they will study CS on their own. But to get to my level,
they'll just have to spend the same three years as I did on my own studying
algorithms, data structures, theory of computation etc. The only question is
if that year of sitting in the classroom, talking to professors with
doctorates and published papers, interacting with other students etc. is worth
the time. As well as the money - a Bachelors at my decently ranked public
college is currently $26k tuition plus about $4k for books etc. But you can
get Pell grants, low interest government backed loans etc. It was slightly
cheaper a few years ago.

I think the year's work and $30k are worth it. Spread out over a 40 year
career, it's less than one thousand a year. In terms of job opportunities,
salaries etc. it's definitely worth it.

One thing is students don't even know what they need to know. On my own I
probably would have just dove into learning a language like C++ or Java, and
then probably would have gotten more specific as I used the language I learned
to implement things in some framework for that language. College went the
other way - I learned a foundation of calculus, graph theory, theory of
computation. Then on top of graph theory I learned data structures, on top of
theory of computation I learned algorithms. So when I started using languages,
I knew what was going on.

Some of the caveats in the article should be obvious, but are worth being
there. People should think twice about going to an expensive private school
they and their parents can't afford, if they don't have any idea what they are
going to do when they graduate. Some of the kids even in level 300 CS courses
openly told me they were slacking, doing the minimum to pass. I'm not sure why
they were even bothering going in the first place.

Before I went to school, many job listings said "BSCS required". Even if they
didn't, human resources would often interrogate me about what credits I had,
what my college plans were etc. Once you get a BSCS, these things are no
longer a problem. Plus you have a technical base that people without a degree
who are doing CRUD PHP or Node.js do not have.

------
calinet6
Give 'em 5 years, then ask.

I had very little understanding of the importance of my college education the
year after I graduated, but I think it's invaluable now.

~~~
nsxwolf
I graduated 15 years ago. Still don't get it.

------
hindsightbias
A college degree is the new high school diploma. The minimal level criteria
for general labor/bagging groceries.

The female:male gender gap in college is moving towards 60:40, people not
getting married, not being able to afford to get married... we're going to
need a war or something to straighten this out.

~~~
mildbow
Good news: the US is currently at war with ISIS.

Bad news: that hasn't helped for a while. I would wager it hasn't helped since
the rise of the MIC.

Note also: lots of general labor/bagging groceries people has diplomas. But
that's just because pretty much _everyone_ has a diploma. I would be extremely
surprised if they thought they were actually using their degrees.

It's a crap situation, and victim blaming doesn't help (not directed at you).
We just happened to be lucky that we like STEM. I know I was lucky enough to
find my passion before college, then follow it, which luckily just happened to
be a booming field.

------
mentos
Steve Jobs on the cost of his college:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc&t=2m17s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc&t=2m17s)

------
bithive123
A good education is priceless. It's sad that apparently many people are
dissatisfied with their college experiences, but I've always felt that if you
went to a good school and feel that all you got out of it was debt and a
diploma, maybe you are the problem.

~~~
untilHellbanned
what part did the university contribute that was priceless?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
More: What part of what the university contributed was _education_?

What part of what the university contributed was education _that you could not
have otherwise obtained_?

And the real problem: What part of the education, that you got from somewhere
other than the university, could you prove to a potential employer that you
actually had received?

