
The White House vows to let programmers dress informally - Libertatea
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/08/20/the-white-house-vows-to-let-programmers-dress-like-ones-do/
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kabdib
The acid test for me: Will they hire software engineers who don't have
degrees?

I've worked with quite a few people who didn't bother to finish college, or
never went to begin with. There doesn't seem to be a correlation between
"great engineer" and "got a BS in CS" \-- let me re-state that; you can be a
great engineer without the paper, or a lousy one with the degree.

So the question is: Is it a meritocracy, or is it a _meritocracy_?

[also: sandals? :-) ]

~~~
kohanz
I know you re-stated it, but I disagree with the first statement. I believe
there _is_ a correlation. The strength of the correlation can be debated, but
in my experience, a degree is a positive signal when hiring someone to be part
of a software engineering team.

Note that I didn't just say software engineer. In my book, technical skills
are only part of the equation, but the ability to communicate well, operate
well within a team, etc. are also very important and in my experience, going
to school helps prepare people for this kind of work.

In the end, a degree or lack thereof only becomes a significant signal if
there isn't enough real-world experience on the resume.

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k-mcgrady
>> going to school helps prepare people for this kind of work

Is there some specific teamwork that goes on in a CS degree? Can't teamwork
skills be picked up in the previous 14 years of schooling?

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andylei
kohanz is not saying that college is the only way someone can learn teamwork,
or that college is a prerequisite to teamwork skills, but merely that college
is positively correlated to such skills.

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walshemj
You get a degree on your own merits at passing exams its not a team thing.

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wlievens
Wasn't the case for me. We had several courses that were team efforts, and the
typical method was to determine a shared team score, and then let individual
scores deviate by a small margin (+- 2/20 at most) from that, based on the
professor's appreciation of your individual contribution in the team.

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AndrewKemendo
This is a clear power play and is playing by the same rules as those that are
wearing suits. What dressing like that is saying is, no I don't have to wear
the uniform of this culture because I am in a position of informal power.

The New Yorker did a piece on that same issue last year:
[http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/the-power-of-
the-...](http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/the-power-of-the-hoodie-
wearing-c-e-o)

At the end of the day I am torn on this issue. The idea that competence counts
makes sense and that is all that should be judged. However there is something
to be said about shared cultural displays and how they fit into a larger team
effort. The modern suit is a pretty benign display in the larger scheme of
things. Especially if you look at the rumpled messes that check the "suit"
block, roaming around government agencies.

All that said, I fucking despise having to wear a suit.

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smacktoward
Yeah, I'm of two minds on it too. On the one hand, I'm all for letting people
be comfortable at work. On the other hand, it's _the fucking White House_
we're talking about here, not a paper company in Scranton. If there is a
single office in the world where the people at least make an _attempt_ to act
like grown-ups, I'd want it to be that one, you know?

~~~
jinushaun
Jeans and t-shirt/hoodie are the official uniform/suit of programmers. You
stand out if you wear anything else.

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silencio
I feel like there's an expectation for me to dress up more than my husband or
any other programmer I know, just to be taken a little more seriously. I don't
know that many female programmers that wear tshirts except for promo purposes
or at home/super duper casual settings either.

Not to mention most tshirts don't fit female bodies in an ideal way anyway...

~~~
lobotryas
That's why there are women's t-shirts that are much better tailored for women.

Personally I never understood the "dress down" culture in programming. I dress
up (sports coats, shirts, nice jeans) because I like it.

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dllthomas
_" I dress up (sports coats, shirts, nice jeans) because I like it."_

Likewise, though I trade out the jeans for slacks. I don't like jeans with a
sport coat (on me - you can wear what you want).

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djb_hackernews
This reminds me of the attitude of a former employer. It was a small tech
company, the CEO/owner was an old school business type. Always well groomed,
nice suits, the car, etc.

He often had visitors come in to the office to see him, and he'd give a short
tour on the way to his office. He'd stop by the sales area and introduce
whoever was around and then he'd bring the visitor to the entry of the open
office style room that had 4 of us software developers and say something like
"And this is the bigger room, with a couple programmers" in such a way that it
was as if he was showing off exotic pets or automated machinery. As if we were
literally sitting there punching in the correct sequence of buttons in order
to program a VCR.

"Programmers" are low status, and now when we are at the White House it'll be
easier to tell who we are.

~~~
yoblin
I think in some ways programmers have brought this low status upon ourselves.
If you want to be taken seriously in a business setting, like it or not how
you dress affects your credibility. When a coder complains that the executives
at the company are not taking their ideas seriously, maybe they should switch
out of the t-shirt that says "talk nerdy to me" on the front. Dressing
professionally isn't just about corporate conformity, it also signals that you
take your job seriously.

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matthewowen
I find this obsession with avoiding suits to be so tiresome. It's as though
programmers are small children who get treats (like dressing down) in exchange
for not being treated like real professionals.

It's a suit. It's simple. It's not hard to wear. It's not uncomfortable. Being
afraid of wearing suits makes programmers look petty, juvenile, and
unprofessional.

Yes, it doesn't have direct practical value, but human behaviour and codes of
conduct are full of things with minimal practical value that we still go along
with. Culture is complex.

~~~
collyw
Agreed. I have worked in academia as well as the private sector (banking
amongst others). PHD's really amuse me how they think they are getting some
sort of freedom, by working long hours for crap wages, but not needing to wear
a shirt and tie and not needing to be in by 9.

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blutoot
In my opinion, techies make as much of a big deal of outfits as do the
finance/business guys. They just do it by shouting about how much they are
against dress codes.

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quaffapint
In my last gig we had to wear the whole tie getup even though we're crawling
under desks or setting up servers. The funny thing is when they had investors
and such come through the building they didn't let us downstairs - we had to
stay hidden. What the heck was the tie for then.

I even got reprimanded by my manager's manager because my dress shoes did not
match my dress pants.

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a3n
Why would you want to work for an employer whose board of directors, Congress,
regularly uses employees as hostages when they threaten to shut the government
down?

I'd wear a clown suit if the work was steady, interesting and well paid.

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goshx
I hate to have to dress up just because people won't take you seriously if you
don't. To me this is just a very old preconception created by society long
time ago (when perhaps it made sense) and people keep doing it apparently for
no clear reason.

I love when I see CEO/CTO's dressing whatever they like (e.g. Mark Zuckerberg,
Werner Vogels, etc.).

The only time I can accept this "dress up" thing with no contest is when you
go to meet someone and you want to be respectful to this person, so you dress
better to show respect/appreciation... like he did for the President. Now, the
dress up for the sake of dressing up because this gives you status and then
people will treat you better, I can't stand it.

~~~
collyw
The thing is, its all very well saying that people shouldn't judge based on
what we wear, but like it or not some people do. Its just a bit dumb and
teenager like to not accept that and put a shirt on if its going to give you
better options in an interview or whatever.

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pcora
I'm the only one that noticed that the guy get's a Blackberry for the job?

That's interesting.

~~~
josephschmoe
That's common in government work. It's usually for the purpose of
emailing/texting at work and nothing else.

I know half a dozen people who have a separate work phone they turn off when
they get home.

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halleym
Seems like he wore a comically wrinkly shirt, just for the video. Kind of
ruins the sentiment. Some how.

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sbmassey
Why would they vow to do it, and not just do it? Ok, it's just the title, but
still.

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dang
The title is taken from the url (which is fine, and better than the doc title
in this case), but it's ungrammatical. What's a minimal fix? I can't think of
one.

Edit: Ok, we changed it from "The White House vows to let programmers dress
like ones do".

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gk1
The White House vows to let programmers dress down

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dang
If I know my Hacker News, that would spark an argument about the prejudice of
saying dressing _down_. So maybe we'll use "informally", as more neutral.
Thanks!

