
Large Companies Game H-1B Visa Program - ganeumann
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/11/us/large-companies-game-h-1b-visa-program-leaving-smaller-ones-in-the-cold.html
======
nopinsight
A simple rule change that seems fair and will improve the view of American
public towards H1B is visa bidding based on salary (as opposed to first-come,
first-served).

Since H1B is supposed to bring in rare foreign talents to do the jobs not
enough Americans are available to do, salary should reflect that. If only the
highest paid people receive the visa, then the public would not complain as
much about replacing American workers for wage reason.

(Even startups with limited budget often can afford $80,000 these outsourcing
firms pay their top 25th percentile H1B employees. [1] For a technical co-
founder role in a Bay area VC-backed startup, it should be higher still.)

Why has this obvious modification not been implemented? I suppose it does not
need Congressional approval. Is it because the change would be against certain
major corporate interests?

[1] Relevant infographics
[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing...](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing-
companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html?_r=0)

\---

Response to objections:

Objections below regarding salary differences between fields (scientists vs
bankers) and costs of living in different areas can be addressed by
considering average salary in each field and area. For example, how much
higher, in percentage terms, the minimum salary of the proposed H1B is,
compared to the average of comparable positions in the same area. (Details
need to be worked out, but the same is true for other important systems.)

Assistance to startups can be given using a point system (like Canadian visa)
that grants extra points to applications from smaller companies. This extra
benefit would also help level the playing field in terms of overhead costs
which is a much larger burden for these companies.

~~~
dheera
This would be completely counter-productive to bringing in foreign talent. The
most talented and highly-skilled jobs are typically buried in the mid-range
salaries. People on the higher ends of the salary range are your armchair
grey-haired CEOs, armchair real estate owners, and Wall Street analysts.
People on the lower ends of the salary range are your service industry
personnel.

Doctors, startup founders, software engineers, rocket scientists, professors,
world-class musicians, and everyone you actually _want_ to be importing
foreign talent for, typically gets a modest, medium-range, middle-class salary
in the US, at least when they start on any new project. Even Nobel laureates
and Pulitzer prize winners usually get very mediocre salaries.

Having the H1B admission be based on salary would probably just fill up all
the H1B quota from Wall Street, not serve as an effective talent filter.

~~~
_delirium
If the "most talented and highly-skilled" people only get "very mediocre
salaries", it sounds like there is not actually a dire shortage of them, then,
unlike what H1B proponents claim. Either that, or the market's price signals
are not working properly for some reason (due to downward wage pressure from
something else, like collusion?).

~~~
anpk
> If the "most talented and highly-skilled" people only get "very mediocre
> salaries", it sounds like there is not actually a dire shortage of them

It's not always black and white. The same argument has been used against
mexicans in low paying jobs. However you kick the mexicans out, farms and
restaurants will collapse.

~~~
_delirium
I don't think anyone would argue that there is a _shortage_ of service-sector
labor. The debate there is purely over prices: there are business models
designed around having large quantities of $7.50/hr-and-no-benefits labor
available (in some cases, $5/hr under the table), and they are averse to
having to pay more. But pretending that their unwillingness or inability to
pay $10/hr means that there would be a "shortage" of unskilled labor at that
price is disingenuous. There's plenty of it available, but maybe only for
"fairly cheap" rather than "dirt cheap". That might just mean that certain
business models are not very good business models.

In any case, that's not what the H1B program is officially about: the purpose
of the program isn't supposed to be to keep wages down in sectors where wages
would otherwise get too high for businesses to afford them. Instead the
argument is that businesses literally can't find workers in these areas, so
H1Bs constitute talent filling a critical national skills gap. My argument is
that, if that were true, the wages in these critically-lacking sectors would
rise accordingly.

~~~
anpk
I agree the H1B program is abused, but I dont believe there is enough local
talent to replace the tens of thousands of h1b workers.

It will result in a lot of small and mid size business closing down.
Unfortunately I dont have any suggestions on improving the h1b program.

~~~
x0x0
If the h1b program were closed, I think companies would miraculously discover
how to (1) pay more (moving to sfbay is a ludicrously bad economic decision
for most families), (2) train employees, and (3) stop leaking women,
minorities, and parents out of their companies. In other words, they'll figure
it out just fine if forced to do so.

~~~
davidw
You're not thinking this through: they'd set up more operations abroad.

~~~
toomuchtodo
You apply tax sanctions against them then. It's done constantly to level the
playing field between domestic and foreign industry.

------
throwaway29
Indian here who topped his university CS bachelor degree. 95% of my class (in
a #1 state university) cheated their way through exams and don't give a shit
about the beauty of algorithms or programming. Today almost all of my
classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B. I want to, but I could not: because I
couldn't afford to pay for a Masters degree in USA back then nor did I want to
do the shit work that is offered in these consulting companies (TCS, Infosys).
I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me and
I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being
gamed.

There are two ways to game the H1B, the NYT article covered only one of them.
The other is the 20,000 visas given to those who finished a Masters/PhD degree
in USA. If they break out the numbers for these, they will find something that
is an open secret known to all Indians: this 20K too is totally dominated by
Indians.

Among my family and friends back in India, how to game the H1B's other 20K
visas is also an open secret. These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India
just apply to some university in the US for a Masters. Either it is a shit-
degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from a shit-university
(most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter. They get the admission,
pay the fees, pass the course. Then they take internships to stay on after the
degree, keep applying and taking interviews relentlessly until something works
out. I believe they can stay on in the US for a few years by extending their
visa in this way, until they get a H1B.

~~~
kamaal
Not sure what your point is. You seem to be suggesting that almost anyone who
refuses to rote memorize math textbooks and score big marks in Exams(Which is
exactly how the Indian educations system works, anyway) must never ever be
given a chance to work overseas, ever. Not only are you wrong, you are off by
a big margin.

Firstly, mugging up pointless trivia and math theorems hasn't anything
remotely to do with productivity. Which is the only thing that matters in
workplaces today. You might be the biggest knowledge repository in your
college, you might know everything there is to know if the books. But your
knowledge is replaceable by a Google search, or worst anything that you can be
learned by any guy in India with a smart phone and a internet connection(both
very cheap and accessible today) without ever having to go to a college. In a
world with such levels flattening, only thing that counts is ability to get
things done with maximum levels of productivity.

>>Today almost all of my classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B.

You should be happy about it, rather than cribbing about it.

>>nor did I want to do the shit work that is offered in these consulting
companies (TCS, Infosys).

The very fact that you consider some work beneath you is speaking volumes
about your attitude and work ethic. Or may be explains why people like you
despite being intelligent are often beaten by every other guy who is ready to
burn 20 hours a day to get work done and make a living doing whatever is
possible, working and making the best of whatever opportunity comes there way.
People in those companies you describe aren't doing 'shit work' as you
describe, they do whatever software work everybody else is doing for a lesser
salary. Because that is the only opportunity they get, and trust me even after
that they don't crib. They remain thankful for the opportunity in a country
where people are dying of hunger, they use that opportunity to learn, coming
from small towns and lower middle class to poor families they work 20 hours a
day, building their career brick by brick making the best of whatever comes
their way. Only to be later face people like you who deride the hard work they
do to get there.

>>I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me
and I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being
gamed.

You really must stop blaming the whole world from your problems.

>>These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India just apply to some university
in the US for a Masters.

You really should be thinking very hard how all these people you think are
below you are able to make a living, while you aren't.

>>Either it is a shit-degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from
a shit-university (most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter.

True thing, because what matter is what you are ready to sacrifice as
immigrant in foreign nation with a hefty student loan. How much you are ready
to burn your self to get where you want to be. Its not about intelligence or
grades, its more than that.

~~~
throwaway29
I accept that I should have elaborated my point by using better words than
shit.

I am from a small town in India and my family was lower middle class. My
parents burnt up all they had just to pay for my Bachelor degree. That is the
reason I could not afford a Masters degree in the US. And there surely are
many students from my background who worked hard to get to where they are.

That does not take away from what I see: Indians who have zero interest in
computer science or even in their own work are grabbing the H1B of Indians (or
Americans) who have that love and work hard.

~~~
shas3
There is a fundamental fallacy here, that is all too common. You think that
busting your butt is something that you only do during your education. It is
not. "started from the bottom now we're here" is as common a credo on the
corporate ladder as it is in the education system. There are numerous CEOs and
founders who were academic duds who slogged hard and used guile and
intelligence to get to the top. I am not saying you won't be that way at work,
but just at a certain stage we all hold the belief that education is the only
indicator of success and hard work.

~~~
kamaal
Its even more common among Indians, where people tend to equate good
education/university/grades as life long right/entitlement to a good life,
even if they are actually bad at work. There is also an immense social
pride/pressure associated with foreign visits, citizenship in the US etc-
Which causes these kinds of issues.

Also one needs to step out of their fantasy chambers and look at the brutal
financial reality of life, which they sooner or later have to face. And work
their lives from there. Else soon, the very same intelligent people will
complain how a butcher down the street who doesn't know any math beyond basic
arithmetic got more richer than a Algorithm expert on TopCoder. And cry that
life is 'unfair'.

------
negrit
Oh wow. I'm the French engineer featured in this story, Theo Negri. Still
trying to move back to the US. Hopefully this helps more than it hurts!

~~~
winter_blue
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the people on Hacker News who
hate immigrant software engineers, and incessantly harangue here for the end
to skilled immigration, every time the H1B visa comes up?

~~~
pdeuchler
Is there any point to this comment except to stir up uncomfortable emotions?

------
codegeek
The problem with H1-B visa is that it's entire premise does not make sense
anymore in 2015 (perhaps it did when they started it way back whenever). Here
is why.

It is supposed to be a visa for exceptionally skilled foreigners (and not just
in IT) that companies should go look for _if_ and _when_ they cannot find
suitable American citizens/permanent residents for _similar_ jobs.

Think about this. It is just so difficult to first prove this without really
"gaming" it. So then starts the game.

The salary requirement or "prevailing wage" as they call it is again bullshit
because it is very easy to meet that requirement.

Now the biggest issue which leads to severe exploitation specially by body
shops: its ties to a specific employer and even though technically possible to
switch jobs, it is almost impossible in practice.

If we need to reform any skilled visa process including H1B, it must include :

1\. No ties to a specific employer. Make it merit based. If I can get it with
one employer, let me switch to another one without too much hassle

2\. Min. salary requirement may still be in place but then don't make it the
crap "prevailing wage". The prevailing wage for Computer System Analysts in NY
is average of $65000. Does that make any sense ? What does that even mean ?
Who is a Computer System Analyst ?

3\. Don't make this a visa that is available when companies cannot find
suitable americans for the same job. This is just not possible to prove
without gaming. Instead, how about let anyone compete for the same job from
across the world and let the employer decide who they want to hire.

4\. Oh and last, have stricter standards for "Service based companies" or
these third party contracting body shops. They should not be allowed.

~~~
trequartista
H-1B visa is a work visa and as such is not employer specific. Once you are in
the US with one employer, it is very easy for you to switch companies. The new
company also has to file a petition, you don't go through the lottery process
(since you already have the visa). USCIS just reviews your case and approves
your petition with the new employer. It takes about 4-6 weeks, but it is not
too much of a hassle. Source: On an H-1B visa and have switched employers.

~~~
solutionyogi
I spent 10 years on H1B and my experience (and many of my other friends) does
not match yours. Two things:

1\. H1B involves a lot of paper work/legal work. There are not that many
companies who are familiar with the process and are willing to spend time and
energy to sponsor your H1B. This reduces the potential employer pool
drastically. (Personal anecdote: I used to do contracting when I was on H1B
and could not accept many potential job offers due to H1B)

2\. While it's true that you are not subject to H1B quota, you are still
subject to the process and can get your petition rejected. (Persona anecdote:
My friend tried to switch companies on H1B and found that the LCA was rejected
because company lawyer made a mistake)

------
sremani
The current gaming of H1 is pretty damaging. TCS, Cognizant are not employing
any exceptional talent. Even in India, exceptional talent does not want to
work for Outsourcing mega-corps for more than few years, just to break into
the field of software. I have seen case after of case, of people getting
offers from Microsoft, facebook etc. could not get H1. I have seen case after
case of students from Ivy League or highly reputable universities lose out
H1-Bs to some guys who can barely finish a cohesive sentence. I am seeing lot
of students who are applying for community colleges after a Masters degree,
just to hang in US for one more year to get another shot again at H1.

H1-B cannot be repaired, it has to be replaced.

~~~
tosseraccount
Moreover, an internal report in the National Science Foundation, a key
government agency, actually advocated the use of the H-1B program as a means
of holding down PhD salaries, by flooding the job market with foreign
students. The NSF added that the stagnation of salaries would push domestic
students away from PhD study, which is exactly what has happened. Former Fed
chair Alan Greenspan has also explicitly advocated the use of H-1B to hold
down tech salaries. [ source :
[http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b10min.html](http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b10min.html)
]

~~~
linkregister
An article about the Greenspan comment, which surprisingly advocates the
position:
[http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/10/the_grea...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/10/the_great_equalizer_alan_green)

~~~
emodendroket
I don't find it surprising at all that the Economist would advocate a policy
that would drive down wages. Why would that be surprising?

~~~
linkregister
I don't have links to back it up, but I read just about every issue and I've
never seen this viewpoint advocated in its print magazine.

Given the opinionated writing style, this is almost certainly a less-edited
(or non-edited) "blogs" section in the same vein as the wild west that is
blogs.forbes.com.

~~~
emodendroket
I haven't read the Economist in years but advocating something that would
drive down wages is pretty much of a piece with its worldview. It's just
surprising, perhaps, because usually these conversations focus on unskilled
labor.

------
pinkunicorn
This also kind of makes me sad. My cousin who works for one of the service
based companies got the H1B and is now in the US. I consider myself if not
better talented, more knowledgeable than him. I worked my ass off in college,
got multiple offers from Google/Amazon/Facebook and yet because of H1B, I had
to work in India. The problem is not so much with being in India, but being
distanced from the company HQ. I would've been so much better off had I worked
at my company's head quarters than in the Indian satellite office.

------
porsupah
There's one additional wrinkle that the story, in fact, gets wrong:

> Federal officials allow only one application for each foreign worker.

That isn't the case. An individual may have multiple H-1B petitions filed,
provided they're for different, unrelated employers. And indeed, it seems some
people do pursue that route, accepting multiple offers, in order to boost
their chances in an increasingly uncertain lottery. (In 2014, about half of
the applications were selected; this year, about a third) And even if you're
lucky in the lottery, you face months of waiting and uncertainty - filing
takes place on April 1, with lottery notifications going out in June and July,
whereupon processing commences. (If you're lucky enough to find a particularly
good employer, they'll add $1,225 to the already substantial fees and lawyer
costs, for "premium processing", guaranteeing a decision within 15 calendar
days, though you still can't start until Oct 1) Decisions then tend to come
through in August and September - but, that's not the end of it yet, as around
a third to a half of all applications will hit the "Request for Evidence"
status, which may query the company's finances or legitimacy, the candidate's
education or experience, and so forth. That can take weeks more to file and
then be acknowledged, whereupon processing resumes, for a decision in perhaps
October or November.

Bear in mind, this is all for a process that likely started with interviews in
January or February, to give enough time for the employer to gather the
documentation required for filing.

------
mabbo
Simpler answer: open offices outside of the US.

Amazon and Google both have big offices in Ontario (Toronto and Waterloo,
respectively) which are growing quickly. Easier time with immigration issues,
a low Canadian dollar (cheaper salary costs), and very low health-care costs
for the company. Why would they not?

 _Bias note: I work at Amazon Toronto. (We are hiring! my username@amazon)_

~~~
chrisper
If you don't mind me asking, is your salary compared to the people in Canada
quite high? (Kind of like in the U.S.) I know that in some countries making
money as a software engineer is as lousy as working in a bakery.

~~~
mabbo
Sorry for the delay in replying.

I get paid more than most developers in Toronto, afaik. I get paid less than
developers of the same level as me in the Seattle office. I moved back from
Seattle, knowing that.

It always comes down to income vs cost of living ratios and differences. I've
heard the best one within Amazon is the Bangalore office.

------
paulus_magnus2
EU-citizen here. TTIP should come with visa free movement of people earning
more than x.

Screw H1-B. Can't change jobs, can't buy a house, can't negotiate a raise.

We can argue if x = 50k, 75k, 100k. In principle it shouldn't be more
difficult for a professional person to re-settle than it is for a corporation.

~~~
objclxt
> TTIP should come with visa free movement of people earning more than x.

So just to be clear, you're genuinely suggesting a system where you restrict
the movement of people based on their salary?

That seems highly problematic. As an ex-EU citizen you probably know the EU
allows any citizen of a member country to travel and work in any other country
regardless of income.

> _Screw H1-B. Can 't change jobs, can't buy a house, can't negotiate a
> raise._

You can buy a house on a H1-B, you just need a credit history which you may
not have if you have not been living in the US for very long. I know of
several people on H1-Bs who have bought property with a mortgage.

You can also change jobs. Yes, there is legal paperwork involved. In the tech
industry this is not normally a problem due to the demand for talent. The fact
you can change jobs also means you can negotiate a raise. Again, I know
several people on H1-Bs who negotiated raises (myself included).

I am not saying H1-B is a great system - it's not, I should know as I'm on
one. But all three of your points are factually incorrect.

~~~
davidw
> So just to be clear, you're genuinely suggesting a system where you restrict
> the movement of people based on their salary?

I think they're suggesting _opening_ things up so that if you make good money,
you can move around with less hassle. That's less restrictive than what we
have now.

> As an ex-EU citizen you probably know the EU allows any citizen of a member
> country to travel and work in any other country regardless of income

Within Europe. TTIP is a 'transatlantic' trade deal, so presumably they're
referring to opening things up between the US and Europe, something which I
fully support.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I think they're suggesting opening things up so that if you make good money,
> you can move around with less hassle. That's less restrictive than what we
> have now.

Less restrictive _for the well-off_. IOW, a great way to increase the gap
between the rich and poor in all members of the arrangement, since the
already-well-off will be most free to optimize their arrangements, while the
less well off will be most inhibited in doing so.

Given how successful policy changes of the last couple decades have _already_
been, especially in the US, at assuring that economic growth _is not_ broadly
distributed, further reinforcing the advantage of the already well-off through
such a policy doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, unless the intent is to
promote the crystallization of a permanent elite and permanent underclass.

~~~
davidw
I'd favor opening things up to anyone who's going to contribute anything at
all, but there's also a 'perfect is the enemy of the good' argument as well.
Well, there would be if this were a realistic proposal... but sadly, even
something like this is probably not feasible.

~~~
dragonwriter
> there's also a 'perfect is the enemy of the good' argument as well.

Making a serious existing problem worse doesn't make this "good"; the _bad_ is
the enemy of the good, too.

~~~
davidw
Letting more people who want to move do so is not making things worse.

------
hibikir
Analysis of the H1B visa, and how it really helps big consulting firms, is
incomplete without also looking at the perspective of the H1B visa holder. I
think I can help, as I used to have one.

Why do people get H1B visas? It's rarely because they want to work in the US
for a few years: It's because they want to stay. I know I did. But how can a
prospective immigrant move to the US? By getting sponsored, and waiting for
the requisite number of years for the Green Card to come back (it varies, but
5+ year waits happen). The best way to do that is to get an H1B, and then,
when the company you work for realizes you are actually good at your job,
start the permanent immigration process.

The trick is that you have to look for an employer that will take you, and you
expect will still be there in 5+ years, and hoping that no layoffs hit you,
because layoffs complicate, if not just completely restart, an immigration
process.

So what do people do? They go with an outsourcer. The outsources will never
lay you off: They just ship you to another client. It's an extra layer of
insurance if things go bad. So ultimately, the way the system is set up,
getting an H1B through one of those big consulting/outsourcing firms is also
in the best interest of the people wanting to move to the US.

While I do not think there's much agreement on how to solve the problem,
regardless of whose interests we have in mind, it 's pretty clear that the
system is broken, as it has all kinds of perverse incentives, forcing good,
honest people into situations nobody likes. But to fix this, we need a major
overhaul of how the US employment-based immigration works.

Now, the problem there is of the very diverse interests, which we can see on
any tech website: Some people just want us immigrants out of here, thinking
that will help them. Others want to increase immigration, thinking that the
most qualified people are in the US, the better for the US tech industry. But
if there's no sensible compromise, what we get is what we have: A system that
doesn't serve anyone very well, much less the people like me who went through
it. In my case, I was fortunate enough to come in back when any company could
get an H1B if they showed they needed a programmer, and coming from a country
with extremely high unemployment, the risks outweighed the rewards. But it was
very frustrating to be economically tied to an employer (for about 6 years in
my case), and knowing that a job switch in the middle of the green card
process, or a layoff, could mean having to go back home.

~~~
objclxt
> _and waiting for the requisite number of years for the Green Card to come
> back (it varies, but 5+ year waits happen)_

Most of these outsourcing firms are Indian, and in those cases it's actually
worse than that. The latest visa bulletin shows an _eleven year wait_ for
Indians applying for green cards (the delay between the application being
filed and processed). This compares with a three month wait for an EU citizen.

The sheer difference in time scales should give you some idea of the vast
numbers of Indian H1-B holders.

------
trustfundbaby
immigrant here ... the one change that would make the h1b immediately useless
to big companies, or at least make them play fairly is to allow h1b holders
move between companies freely and file for a green card on their own
(providing paystubs to prove employment) after 3 years instead of having to
rely on the company to do it for them.

Right now if you lose a job on h1b, you have to live the country IMMEDIATELY.
Can you imagine the kind of fear of losing your job that instills in a person
who has been here even more than a few years? You'll accept any injustice just
if it guarantees you being able to stay and eventually get a green card.

The program has to be fixed/updated.

------
tankerdude
This topic has been hashed through so many times and it's always the same.

H1Bs are used to distort the costs for engineering, not for hiring skilled
workers that we cannot find. The engineers are then treated like slaves
(Infosys), and at below market rates, to further distort the market value of
these workers.

So we know that the companies are just simply lying when they say, "We can't
find US workers." It's always, "We can't find US workers for what we want to
pay." We know how they game it, and we know how it can be fixed, but the
politicians simply won't step up. It's political suicide.

I'm glad that some people are poking at this problem, but the corporations are
the ones with the deep pockets and we know who wins out there.

We can only rant and rave, send letters to deaf congressmen and yet, it seems
like it's just completely moot and we're just plain ignored.

Sad state of affairs with easy fixes, but no political will. That's the state
of the US these days it seems: Corporation ruled.

------
oldpond
Canadian IT consultant here, and I don't even look at opportunities in the US
anymore. I used to respond to the recruiters with "Do you know I live in
Canada", and the conversation would end (I think most of them don't know
Canada is not a State). Now I just delete them from my inbox. It's next to
impossible to cross the border for work as an independent. Big IT still sends
resources across for projects, but I haven't met any independents in years who
have worked down south.

~~~
aheilbut
As a Canadian, why can't you do such work on TN status?

~~~
oldpond
Sure, but this requires a sponsoring company, and here are some stats.
[http://tnvisasample.com/2013/10/23/how-many-tn-visa-are-
issu...](http://tnvisasample.com/2013/10/23/how-many-tn-visa-are-issued-last-
year/)

------
riskable
Rather than bidding for visas or other points-based systems or even abolishing
H1Bs why not this:

For every H1B worker an employer must have at least one American working the
same exact job making the same exact salary as the H1B worker.

Pair programming is a thing you know :)

A 1-to-1 ratio would solve the "prevailing wage" scams as well as the "we
can't find any qualified workers" nonsense because even if a company couldn't
find a "qualified worker" they would have to hire a US citizen and _train
them_ in that job (or I guess they could just pay them to sit but that'd be
very wasteful).

What quicker way to end the "skills gap" than to force these supposed,
"uniquely high skilled" foreigners to train their local American counterparts?

~~~
dennisgorelik
> "prevailing wage" scams

Who exactly is getting scammed in prevailing wage scams?

~~~
riskable
American workers and the US government (to a lesser extent). What's the
"prevailing wage" for IT workers at an Indian outsourcing firm? $60k. What a
surprise!

That's the scam: If those workers were Americans doing the same job they'd be
paid a lot more than that. Probably double or more in many markets!

The system is being abused. Disney wants to lower IT costs but it can't just
replace their workers with H1Bs because that's A) illegal and B) they'll never
get enough. Tata to the rescue! By replacing those American IT workers with
Tata H1Bs they completely get around _all_ the safeguards built into the law
to prevent that precise situation.

------
tn13
Not my circus not my monkeys but I find the public discourse around
immigration pretty astonishing.

Somehow raising the H1B cap from 65K to say 100K would take away American jobs
and drive down wages but legalizing few million illegal immigrants (many of
whom are barely educated) is a humanitarian gesture ?

Even if those thousands are Chinese and Indians are willing to work for lower
wages and aren't technically special, they are indeed far more productive than
illegal immigrants, have significantly lower crime rates and probably lowest
reliance on welfare. Not to mention, higher you go up the skill level more
people does not mean driving down wages on the contrary it means increase
overall output of that industry.

Two engineers can invent a bike 5 can invent a car. On other other hand 1
gardener is useful 2 gardeners drive down wages of each other.

H1B and overall immigration policy of USA does not seem to be based on sound
economic arguments but rhetoric. No wonder results are a disaster.

------
throwaway7796
This article doesn't even scratch the surface of how "job consultancies" game
H1B. I know for a fact that these "job consultancies" apply for H1B for a
person using their services, as an employee of more than one company.
Employees needing sponsorship typically apply for H1B through the company they
are actually working for and as employees of couple other companies that they
don't actually work for (the "job consultancies"). So effectively, the
person's probability of getting picked up in the lottery in a year is tripled.

Once they secure the H1B, the person is more than willing to resign from the
current employer and work for these "job consultancies" temporarily. And since
H1B transfer is not that complicated, they jump ship to any other company
later.

------
helsinki
I recently ran some entity-resolution code on the h1b applications from
2008-2012. Here are a list of the companies that Amazon has applied as:

[u'a2z computer services inc', u'a2z inc', u'amazon fulfillment services nc',
u'a2z devleopment center inc', u'a2z signs', u'amazon services llc', u'a2z
consulting inc', u'a2z technologies llc', u'amazon coporate llc', u'amazon
fulfillment services', u'amazon media group llc', u'a2z signs llc', u'a2z
healthcare services llc', u'amazon technologies inc', u'amazon web services',
u'a2z field services llc', u'amazon pharmacy inc', u'amazon produce network
llc', u'amazon mechanical turk inc', u'a2z medical supplies co', u'amazon
construction inc', u'amazon produce network llp', u'a2z global llc',
u'amazoncom dedc llc', u'a2z mobile home services llc', u'amazon fulfillment
services inc', u'amazon consulting corp', u'amazon web servicse llc', u'amazon
studios inc', u'amazon payments inc', u'a2z development center', u'amazon
cargo inc', u'amazon fulfillment services llc', u'a2z', u'amazon watch',
u'amazon digital services inc', u'amazon logistics group llc', u'a2z systems
llc', u'amazoncom nvdc inc', u'audible an amazon company', u'amazon web
services llc', u'amazon captal services inc', u'amazon fulfillment service
inc', u'amazon professional care', u'amazon capital services inc', u'a2z
development center inc dba lab126', u'amazon corportate llc', u'amazon society
inc', u'amazon electric fire alarm inc', u'a2z development center inc',
u'amazon global resources inc', u'amazon corporate llc', u'amazon builders
hardware inc', u'amazon hut inc', u'a2z development center inc dba amazon
music', u'amazon web services inc']

------
dataker
Honestly, this is a sad thread, showing many US ideological biases in
presumedly intelligent people.

Many pseudo-libertarians want to use central-planning to determine wages(!) of
foreigners while criticizing the minimum wage.

~~~
davidw
Every time this issue comes up here, the "us vs them" comes out very strong.
It is indeed quite sad. I flag these kinds of articles because they don't
really add to the site.

------
enra
I'm currently an visa holder, not H-1B though.

For me H1B has always been the standard option to get a work permit in US. If
you have a college degree, skills and someone is willing to give you job, it's
a visa to work in US few of years or longer. For many people it's pretty much
the only option. In this time of global mobility, it's crazy how hard and how
limited the visa options are for this purpose.

Sometimes I see people talking here about moving to Europe. In Europe, there
is a similar system for foreigners to work there. You apply for a work permit,
and if the company and you meet the sanity check, it usually gets granted.
That's it. There is no artificial annual schedules, caps or lotteries.

Salaries Myth. Excluding those outsourcing companies, I've never saw or known
anyone get hired in a startup with much less salary just because they are a
non-resident alien (sample size ~100) (Obviously foreigners don't always have
as good market information about costs and salaries as locals.). Also I never
heard any founder say that lets hire bunch of foreigners because it's so cheap
and easy. Usually the hires end up costing more since you have to pay to
relocate, pay the lawyers, and a hr person to create and manage process for
the employees.

I understand that lot of people want to come to US, so there needs to be some
limits, but it's crazy how hard or complicated this system currently is.

------
dennisgorelik
As usual with H1B discussions, most of commentators here are full of hidden
xenophobia.

Almost nobody voices the interest of foreigners who struggle to get better
paying jobs in their countries (just keep these foreigners out of here, so we
can squeeze an extra dime from our fat employers).

~~~
colordrops
Are you saying that there should be no restrictions on foreign workers in the
US? If you believe in the concept of the state, then by definition you believe
that there are insiders and outsiders, and the insiders get more rights and
privileges than the outsiders. If not, the state no longer exists. What are
you suggesting?

~~~
dragonwriter
> If you believe in the concept of the state, then by definition you believe
> that there are insiders and outsiders

No, that doesn't follow. In many models of "the state", the _existence_ of
outsiders is essentially a failure mode; the state seeks to be all-
encompassing.

Now, if instead of the "the concept of the state", you mean "the concept of
the _status quo_ system of multiple coexisting sovereign nation-states", you'd
have a point.

But I don't think _anyone_ thinks that system is a moral ideal to strive for.

~~~
colordrops
> But I don't think anyone thinks that system is a moral ideal to strive for.

I agree, and despite that most people probably misinterpreted my first
comment, I am complete against the existence of any state that separates
individuals. But do you really think that _no one_ thinks that multiple
coexisting sovereign nation-states is a good idea? Isn't that the idea behind
nationalism?

------
ramanujam
The H1B abuse discussion comes up once every few months on HN and elsewhere
but things have gotten a lot worse in the past 2 years with the lottery. There
are a number of definitive and progressive steps that USCIS can take to
prevent misuse by TCS, CTS and other consulting companies.

Just establishing a cap on the number of visas per company as a percentage of
the workforce will solve this issue. This will work well for everyone (large
tech companies, startups, small businesses) except the sweatshops. If i had to
take a guess (not hard to verify), 95+% of employees of the consulting
companies will be underpaid visa workers. The prevailing wage is a joke ($70k
in the bay area for someone with 5 years experience) and enforcing salary
based bidding isn't really a practical solution. It can easily be gamed or it
will only be beneficial for a certain group of employers.

I wrote an essay two and half years back on how to fix this and it is sad that
all those are still true [http://ramanuj.me/fixing-the-high-skilled-
immigration-proble...](http://ramanuj.me/fixing-the-high-skilled-immigration-
problem.html)

~~~
falsestprophet
"Just establishing a cap on the number of visas per company as a percentage of
the workforce"

This can be gamed too. Large employers could start operating bodyshops.

Say the H1B limit was only 5% of a company's workforce. Then Walmart could
sponsor 110,000 workers. Yum!Brands could sponsor 22,000 workers.

This probably wouldn't even put Infosys or Tata out of business in the US they
would provide the same recruitment and management services they do now, but
other companies (in this example Walmart and Yum) would be the sponsors of
record.

------
flyrain
Does anyone mention that these companies usually file multiple H-1B for the
same person? That one of the major reason how Tata Consultancy Services (TCS)
like companies get so much visas, and which is unfair to others.

------
marcoperaza
How about we just get rid of immigration caps and other restrictions? Limit
the amount of public benefits that recent immigrants can receive and open the
borders. An infusion of ambitious and hard-working immigrants has always done
wonders for this country. Let's recapture that frontier spirit of rugged
individualism. Let's tell the world: "This is the place where your hard work
can make a better life for you and your family. Where you control your own
destiny. America is open for business again."

Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about immigration policy in general, not just
H1Bs. The reason to limit public benefits would be to, in the absence of
restrictions on immigration, ensure that people are coming to work, not to
live off the state. Public benefits in the US pay better than most jobs in a
lot of countries. We shouldn't stick our heads in the sand and pretend that
such incentives don't matter.

~~~
finance-geek
No one is really worried about H1B workers "receiving benefits"...we're not
speaking about laborers. The core problem is that tens of thousands, perhaps
hundreds of thousands of local graduates are sitting idle, unemployed, looking
for work, while companies claim there is a "shortage." In reality, there is
only a shortage of companies willing to pay market wage.

The reality is that local grads (Joe Smith in Columbus Ohio) is not willing to
live 2hrs away and dorm with four other guys in a H1b exurb hostel...while
some guy from India is...and this is why they are hired, not because there is
a lack of local talent but because few local grads are willing to work for so
little that they are essentially reduced to exurb hosteling.

~~~
marcoperaza
I don't believe in government protections for elite workers. The median salary
for H1B-holders is north of $70,000, well above median household income in the
US, let alone individual income. I'm sure that within particular industries
H1Bs make less than local workers, but perhaps the pay in those industries is
inflated due to the low supply of workers. Ironically it is technology
workers, responsible for more labor-market disruption than immigration and
trade combined, who are complaining the most about competition from H1Bs.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

~~~
UK-AL
It's not 'artificially' inflated because of low supply. If its low supply,
then the price should be high because it means its hard to train for.

Technical people arnt really elite workers either. There many many developers.

------
djb_hackernews
H1-B is a massive corporate subsidy, even Milton Friedman says so.

H1-B doesn't need to be reformed, or improved with half measures like changes
to the visas being awarded based on salary, etc.

H1-B needs to be abolished. Those employers that need extraordinary talent can
use the O1 visa and the rest of the employers and employees can let supply
meet demand. As it is now the H1-B/F1 OPT corporate loophole is skewing the
education system (American universities share some of the blame) so bad that
american students aren't able to get seats at American universities, and the
"talent shortage" (which there isn't) becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

If I were a smart, aware 18 year old person trying to decide what field of
study I was interested in with a focus on career longevity and life time
earnings, I sure as heck would not pick computer science, and I don't blame
them.

~~~
itl12
What would you pick? Genuine question.

------
gdilla
The simple way to fix this is to remove the indentured servitude. In a fair
market, labor is free to move around. Overnight, the incentive for companies
to hire H1Bs go out the door, because all the advantages of doing so (below
market servitude for years) disappears.

------
suprgeek
This is a very well known issue that has been brought up before. The NYT Piece
has a basic error: the case highlighted of Mr. Négri - His H1-B Visa was not
Denied (which would imply that his case was processed), it was returned
without being accepted.

There are also two well know tweaks that can take the perverse incentives out
of the H1-B system:

1) Allow the H1-B to be a work permit with free movement between like jobs at
other companies - this will reduce underpayment and remove the virtual slave-
labor conditions of an H1-B holder

2)Reform the Labor Certification process (the precursor allowing you file) so
that it actually ensures that no Americans can be found - the current state of
the LC system is a joke.

~~~
solutionyogi
I am not sure how you can reform the labor certification process when the goal
of the process is to find 'whether there are qualified Americans' to do this
job.

Other than a very few cases, I guarantee you that there is not a single job
where you can't find an American to do the job if you are willing to pay the
price.

------
6stringmerc
Re: H1Bs and STEM. Specifically Research positions. While an anecdotal
observation at the beginning, I was able to review some of the numbers via the
H1B Data site (which I believe I found through here) to get a feel for if my
hunch had any merit.

What struck me is that there is a very, very large public outcry that US
students need to get into STEM fields, and that "the US is falling behind in
reserach science!" is a genuine problem. Well, I do think that's true, but in
practice, I see a push toward a corporate business model treating cheap labor
as preferable to sustainable business practices.

As in, I'm not delusional that research science in the US is a glamorous,
higly-paid industry for which people are clamoring to get in due to greed. To
my understanding, most people understand following their academic dreams isn't
a path to becoming wealthy. However, it does appear that US research
institutions are very comfortable with claiming more students are needed in
research science, more graduates are needed...and then they drive the standard
of living down by seeking out H1Bs to fill everyday positions, such as
Research Associates.

I wish I had the skills and or time to put such a theory to the test using
various data sources (H1B data, graduation statistics, BLS information as
available, etc), but for now it's simply one of those suspicions that I've
developed due to personal observation; it may be overly skeptical of the
system, but that's kind of the point. I like context.

------
thetruthseeker1
Lets look at this problem. 20K visas are gamed every year. Lets assume polices
in place made them unable to game the system, we might have save as much as
8OK jobs say here in the USA (assuming 3 jobs from India are also moved back
to US in addition to the one in US). But people who know economics say that is
not a big deal or the source of American economic woes, it is the decimation
of manufacturing and millions of jobs having gone to China + Korea + Indonesia
+ India +...rest of the world. It is globalization.

So why is this not talked about? The reason being: unlike H1B visas they are
not easily quantified in terms of number of "human jobs" even though they are
a factor of magnitude larger I would reckon. However, they can be measured by
trade deficit that America builds up( because the money goes to that country)
and you are right about which country America has the highest trade deficit
with US (worth millions of jobs in USA).

So H1B visa is really a small fry, but delicious fry and easy catch and an
easy problem to describe and easy to vilify.

Also, if the H1B visas were completely eliminated, its not like those jobs may
stay in the US forever, companies may find alternate strategies to get less "
important " work done by foreigners.

------
ArtDev
In addition to what has already been said, the H1B visa system drives wages
down.

All of the foreign nationals I worked with could not negotiate a higher salary
by changing jobs. Their employer owns their visa, so they can't just get a
better job.

Big companies game the system. We should change the law. The individual should
be able to take their H1B elsewhere like a green card.

------
pinkunicorn
Wait, Amazon applies for L1 Visas. Do they offer H1B? It is given that they've
filed for 700+ H1B's.

~~~
thedogeye
If Amazon filed 700 H1Bs presumably they offered those to people.

~~~
pinkunicorn
I was questioning the statistic of whether Amazon really filed 700H1B's or
not.

~~~
the_economist
[http://data.jobsintech.io/companies/amazon-corporate-
llc](http://data.jobsintech.io/companies/amazon-corporate-llc)

This data is pretty accurate.

------
elcct
What's so good about US that someone would like to work there and not UK for
example?

~~~
walshemj
Higher salary's and higher status for engineers would be the main two.

------
sehugg
An outsourcing firm was fined by the DOJ in 2013 for alleged visa fraud:
[http://abcnews.go.com/Business/top-10-companies-request-
visa...](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/top-10-companies-request-visas-
foreign-workers/story?id=20730536)

Note also how some of these companies spend millions of dollars in lobbying
each year:
[https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D00000078...](https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000000786&year=2015)

------
telephoner
You can fill any job without H-1B if you put in enough money (you may need a
bit too much though).

The bigger the shortage, the bigger the spread of salary between americans and
foreigners salaries. So, if a company doesn't get the visa it will pay the
spread, or worse, it will produce less.

Minimizing the total loss of the companies under a constraint of total number
of visas is a very simple problem mathematically speaking: by selling H1B
visas to the highest bidders.

Plus, it means that these companies are compensating society for bringing more
job competition.

------
cwyers
Large companies game pretty much everything, thanks to things like regulatory
capture and the fact that they have the resources and the incentive to do so.
I'm coming around to the idea that as a philosophy, capitalism doesn't work in
the face of companies past a certain size (Adam Smith thought that they would
be too inefficient to survive, which is why he didn't pay them too much mind).
I don't know what to do with this thought though.

------
alagappanr
Why not just increase the fees for companies that are filing a lot of H1B
applications? For example, they could charge 4000$ per application for the
first 100 applications and then increase it to say $8000 or $10000. Companies
that are taking advantage of this, would be discouraged due to the higher
fees. At the very least, it would bring down the number of applications from
these companies and would increase the chances of other smaller companies.

~~~
jefftk
The spin of the article is that smaller companies are more deserving, but I
don't see why we should expect that in general. If Apple or FB bring in a
thousand people on H1Bs, is that a problem?

~~~
emodendroket
Any one hire has less impact at a company employing thousands or tens of
thousands of people than at a company whose employees number in the single or
double digits.

------
deegles
I have another "simple" idea: modify the lottery to distribute the visas more
evenly.

Step 1: Randomize the list of employers with applicants.

Step 2: Give one visa to each employer in a round-robin fashion until they are
exhausted or they have no more applicants. The company then decides which of
its applicants gets the visa.

Assuming that there are fewer than 65k employers petitioning each year, each
employer could count on at least 1 petition succeeding.

------
CodeSheikh
Simple short term solution would be to pay special attention to applications
coming from Wipro/Infosys/TCS and not treat them same as applicants from
Google/Apple/Amazon. This will sure improve the odds for the next year's
lottery.

And eradicate consultancies for the love of God. The relationship should not
be Employee-to-Employer's payroll. Instead it should be Employee-to-Employer's
product.

------
littletimmy
What's the point of putting a cap on highly skilled exceptional labor? The US
is in a unique position in the world where it can absorb the very best people
from around the world. Surely these people are not going to be a drain on the
public funding system or social services. Just let them come in and work for
american corporations.

~~~
davidw
> What's the point of putting a cap on highly skilled exceptional labor?

Mostly short-sighted people from the US who think that they're entitled to
higher wages because they were born in the USA, and who do not realize that
large companies can and will go abroad to seek talent, and that if things get
bad enough, countries that are more open and willing to accept newcomers are
where the best startup ecosystems will eventually form.

------
oldmanjay
All complicated legal systems are built by lawyers to be gamed by lawyers. I
guess there's some value in generating outrage about it in that there are ad
impressions to sell, but as lawyers run the government for their own benefit
foremost, expect no meaningful changes.

~~~
mavelikara
Yes, the only people benefiting from these complicated rules are the lawyers.
Here is Aman Kapoor, Founder of Immigration Voice @ CIS Ombudsman Conference
pointing this out colorfully:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu7bat3S3EI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu7bat3S3EI)

------
anupshinde
This breeds mediocrity. It creates problems for both sides - USA where talent
gets sidelined for less costly resources and it promotes mediocre-go-onsite
culture back in countries like India - and talent gets discounted/demoralised
back there too.

------
WalterBright
Any system based on bureaucratic rules rather than market forces is going to
get gamed.

------
mtimjones
This can be fixed by forcing companies to pay H-1B's the same wage as local
hires and allow them to quit and move on to other companies if they're
unhappy. The benefit to companies would disappear, and so would H-1B.

------
emodendroket
It seems like the lottery should be weighted in favor of more companies
getting the visas instead of being totally random, although I suppose that
system is also not immune to gaming.

------
ulobaba
A question, how long does it take for "rest of the world" engineers with H1B
visa to get Green card from the day they apply? Assume it is EB2.

------
wahsd
Say it ain't so! What, our corporations use immigration to triage short term
problems instead of being forced to come up with long term solutions by
closing down immigration and forcing corporations and government to come up
with a solution to educate our own people??? Yeah, I know, screw those mostly
black poor people in underserved communities, we'll just continue importing
talent and siphoning it off of other countries to solve immediate impediments
to extracting profits.

------
realrocker
Capping the visa limit per company should do it. I am sure the loophole has
been lobbied in .

------
xux
So by "game", you mean they submit the applications early? Not sure if I
follow.

------
scrame
In other news, water is wet.

------
tayloormon
Trump is the only candidate who wants to make it fair for H1Bs and Americans.

Let's make America great again, for all people!

------
tosseraccount
"prevailing wage"

Only in la la land does massively increasing the supply of labor maintain the
wage rates.

Sand Hill Road : 7

Garage Startup : 0

------
elchief
Large companies game everything they can. If they're public companies, their
directors are required to.

------
ck2
The entire H1B system is a "game" for big business

There is no way they cannot find people already in the USA to fill those
positions, they just don't want to pay full wages/benefits.

~~~
rrecuero
The system needs to be revisited. I am a spanish citizen and I recently got my
green card. 3 years ago, I got really lucky that my H1B got selected through
the lottery. That said, that month waiting to know was really frustrating. You
feel helpless. It's crazy to see how much your life can be affected because
the computer chooses your number in a lottery. You feel helpless.

From my point of view, the solutions described above are steps in the right
direction.

\- Limiting the number of visas per company \- Prioritizing jobs according to
different criteria like salary or how much the company needs the employee \-
Limiting the amount of visas that one country can claim (similar to the green
card lottery)

~~~
ambrood
> \- Limiting the amount of visas that one country can claim (similar to the
> green card lottery)

How can anyone in their right mind justify per country caps that signify the
racialist compromises of the Civil Rights Act.

I came to this country at 17 as an undergrad and have a US tax payer funded
Masters degree from a top 5 university (not that I believe US news ranking is
all that important. I've been here 9 years and can fairly say that I'm as an
integrated immigrant as any, but i wont be getting a greencard anytime before
2025 because I'm an Indian. From my perch i could also find it maddening that
a UX designer who happened to be born say in the EU gets their residency in a
matter of months with far less investment or attachment to this country.

People don't come to this country as representatives of their government.

------
AstroJetson
"“I would expect most people would feel Atulya was making a positive
contribution to the U.S. economy,” he said. “There is no American who could do
his job. Without Atulya, there would be no company.”

Wow, you are one BART bus away from being gone. I can see making a statement
like this in your request to have someone come and in their application to be
a citizen. But if your entire business model depends on one person you should
get another smart person to shadow them to have some kind of backup plan. I'd
be scared to death to be an employee where my future depended on them being
alive and healthy.

