
ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants - inputcoffee
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/08/25/this-really-might-be-the-end-of-itt/
======
swalsh
This is incremental progress, it's just one school. But a crazy step in the
right direction. For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation (high-cost
low-value educations) allowed to rise up out of the failings of our strained
public institutions (not enough capacity to meet demand).

What really blows my mind is that this seems to come after the justice
department discontinues for profit federal prisons. It's like all that
"change" we were hoping for with Obama seems to be coming at once.

~~~
nradov
In principle there's nothing wrong with for-profit schools which train people
on specific job skills or certification programs. There are some valuable
skills that non-profit community colleges can't practically teach. But still
the federal government should only support financial aid for such schools if
they demonstrate a high rate of job placement for students who complete the
program.

~~~
swalsh
You're right, there are many examples of great for-profit institutions. The
problem is there's little differentiating them from "predator" schools. One
issue is information asymmetry.

~~~
nickff
There is informational asymmetry in every transaction (as well as in non-
profit schools); this is a red herring (unless you can show that it is causing
a specific, large, unsolved problem). The current administration has
repeatedly demonstrated hostility towards for-profit schools, and has chosen
to use discretionary enforcement of rules against them rather than enforcing
standards universally, because they know that the standards would hit many
non-profit schools as well. I am not sure about the specifics of this case,
but the Department of Education has been looking at for-profit schools much
harder than non-profits.

~~~
ethbro
_> I am not sure about the specifics of this case, but the Department of
Education has been looking at for-profit schools much harder than non-
profits._

This seems fair to me. You can argue that wasted money at NFP schools ends up
in someone's pocket, but bald faced "every buck not spent educating you" going
into the pocket of capital seems worse.

If the outcomes at FP higeher education aren't better, why not avoid funneling
federal money (in the form of no interest loans, etc) _directly_ in private
profits?

~~~
nickff
Non-profits are often compared by examining their overhead as a percentage of
total spending, rather than their efficacy per dollar (or overall). This holds
back many great charities, and benefits others which consistently waste money
on doomed projects with low overheads. It seems to be just as wrong to assume
that retained earnings or dividends are wasted overhead and compare
organizations on that basis alone.

------
grahamburger
A few years ago I had to make several hires in cities away from the main
operations of our business. These were technical positions, but not _really_
highly skilled positions - think geek squad level proficiency. Many of the
candidates came out of ITT, and to be honest they were among the best
candidates for this level position, or at least they interviewed the best. I
got the impression that ITT spends a _lot_ of time refining interview
techniques - amusingly, at the end of the interview each ITT candidate asked
us the same 3 questions almost verbatim, I'm certain those questions were
drilled in to them as part of mock interviews. They were good questions, I
wouldn't have thought anything of it until the 3rd or 4th time it happened and
I started to notice the pattern.

From that experience, I have a hard time writing off ITT + similar as
worthless or even predatory. I don't know what these people paid for there
education, maybe it was enough that they'll never be able to get a good enough
job to get out of debt, but it certainly seems like it was worth _something._
These people were certainly employable, and IMO moreso on average than those
from similar socio-economic backgrounds who didn't have any secondary
education to speak of.

~~~
korethr
How many of them did you end up hiring? That's not sarcastic, I'm genuinely
curious.

My experience with ITT tech candidates was the opposite. When interviewing for
a datacenter tech position, the candidates were hit and miss on basic sysadmin
questions, and seemed to have never seen computer hardware before. To be fair,
rackmountable datacenter-style computers look quite a bit different on the
outside from the more commonly seen towers and laptops you'll find on a
person's desk in an office. But once you open one up, basic components are
similar enough that they should be easy to identify. DIMMs are DIMMs, hard
drives are hard drives, etc. But when you point to a power supply and tell me
that it is the CPU because it has all the wires, or tell me that the video
card you're holding is a sound card, you should not have passed the computer
hardware class requisite for your degree.

~~~
grahamburger
We probably hired ~7 altogether. Some were great, some mediocre as you'd
expect. Honestly I don't know that they would have been any better at
answering the questions you referenced, but I do think that on average they
would have done better than others who applied but didn't have any secondary
education. That indicates to me that the value of the ITT degree is >0\.
Whether or not the value of the degree is enough to make up for what they
paid, I honestly don't know - although several of them had used military money
to get the degree so they weren't really out much.

------
korethr
I'm torn on this. Understand, I have little love for ITT, and I got my 4 year
degree from there. In hindsight, I wish I'd done community college and the
local university instead. I honestly believe I'd have had a better curriculum,
better books and a better ratio of instructors who cared to ones who didn't. I
believe I'd have had to take on less student loan debt, as well.

That said, suppose ITT Tech does lose its accreditation, closes, etc. Where
does that leave me and the other graduates who actually _do_ have a modicum of
knowledge and competence? Are our degrees automatically scrubbed from history,
having never been -- leaving us unqualified to hold our current jobs or any
future ones that require a college degree? Do our degrees become a black mark
against us, nullifying any experience displayed on the same resume? Or will it
just be a non-event that nobody notices or cares about?

~~~
diyorgasms
Degrees from these sorts of institutions are already arguably a black mark.
I've seen this come up a few times in /r/sysadmin, and to some people,
attending a school like ITT displays a shocking inability to do even the most
cursory research before making a huge life decision. Fair or not, you can be
almost certain you are not being considered for some positions because you
attended ITT.

~~~
korethr
> attending a school like ITT displays a shocking inability to do even the
> most cursory research before making a huge life decision.

Meh. Again, torn. I can understand the sentiment having had my own frustration
with interviewing ITT tech grads years later. And it seems somewhat fair to
hold that attitude against a recent graduate, considering the allegations have
been around for some years now. But almost 15 years ago, with most accusations
having not yet been levied and internet access not as widespread, "the most
cursory research" wouldn't have likely have lead one to warnings about the
school.

I shouldn't worry about it terribly. What's done is done and the only thing
that can be done for it is to do the best work I can, and let the results
speak for themselves.

~~~
diyorgasms
I remember 15 years ago or thereabout and ITT Tech was advertising on daytime
television. When was the last time a reputable institution of higher learning
had a television advertisement strategy, let alone on daytime television.
Their model has been predatory since day 1, and it wasn't too hard to see
through it.

------
Gargoyle
"ITT is barred from awarding raises, paying bonuses or making severance
payments to its executives or paying dividends without the department’s
approval."

Wow. How do we make that happen for TBTF financial companies?

~~~
toomuchtodo
You lobby your Congressional representatives. Elizabeth Warren has been
kicking ass and taking names, but can't do it all alone.

------
projectramo
What took so long?

No seriously. With all the articles we read about predatory practices, and
various TV segments, what takes so long for things to fall into place?

I wonder if there is a good way to distribute information about school
quality. And that applies to not-for-profit schools as well.

Collect metrics, make sure you give them to the purchaser at decision time.
Akin to labels on food. If the for-profit or non-profit has great placement
and great training, good for them.

~~~
buckbova
Took a long time to take action against corrinthian colleges.

2007:

[http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-10-18-col...](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-10-18-colleges-
raid_N.htm)

2008:

[http://www.ocregister.com/articles/graduates-193364-job-
stud...](http://www.ocregister.com/articles/graduates-193364-job-
students.html)

This year:

[http://college.usatoday.com/2016/03/25/former-corinthian-
col...](http://college.usatoday.com/2016/03/25/former-corinthian-colleges-to-
pay-over-1b-for-defrauding-students/)

Unfortunately the damage done by these institutions is so great that it's
ruined the credibility of getting many degrees or specialized training and all
while saddling students with lifetime debt to the detriment of the national
debt.

People really need to go to jail for this fraud. In some places I'm sure they
are dragged out into the street and shot. I'm not advocating that . . . maybe
one in the leg.

------
walrus01
The worst thing about ITT Tech (the stupid for profit scam school) is the
problem it causes for the employees of ITT, the big defense
contractor/technology company, which has nothing to do with the tech school.
The "real" ITT has had its name dragged through the mud by these bullshit
artists.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exelis_Inc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exelis_Inc).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITT_Corporation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITT_Corporation)

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/harris-corp-to-buy-exelis-
for-4-...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/harris-corp-to-buy-exelis-
for-4-4-billion-1423223233)

[http://www.itt.com/Home/](http://www.itt.com/Home/)

So you worked at ITT in a senior technical engineering or management role, put
that on your resume. Looking for a new job, good luck watching it get
shitcanned by HT departments where somebody is scanning through resumes and
will discard anything with "ITT" on it. Not fair, and lazy, but it happens.

~~~
leereeves
Even though their name is simply ITT now (ITT Inc) I think I would put the old
name International Telephone & Telegraph on my resume.

~~~
walrus01
Know some people who worked for mid-size defence contractors (like EDO) that
were acquired by ITT prior to 2012, even though they were receiving paychecks
from "ITT" when they moved on, they put the name of the original easily
googleable defense contractor on their resumes.

------
emeraldd
[http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/department-
education-b...](http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/department-education-
bans-itt-enrolling-new-title-iv-students-adds-tough-new-financial-oversight)

An non-paywalled link.

------
Unbeliever69
Please lets not dignify this sham of a business be referred to as a
"University."

------
ravenstine
I'm going to call BS on nearly everything said here about for profit schools.
While I don't particularly care if ITT can't accept people relying on federal
loans, I do believe that people aren't being duped by crappy schools so much
as they are falling for them. Sure, the commercials have been everywhere for
years, but it's really not hard for even the dumbest of dumb to type "ITT
sucks" into Google and find all sorts of legitimate negative reviews. I have
been to two trade schools for different careers; I chose them because there
was almost nothing but positive reviews about them on the internet. I suspect
that people attending scam schools have poor shenanigan-sensing skills and may
subconsciously think that commercials on TV provide some sort of legitimacy.
This is why I have no sympathy for the people who attended "Trump University",
as at the very least you should go into such a program assuming there's a high
chance it will sick and have an escape plan ready. But my generation doesn't
seem to do that often and would rather rely on the safety nets provided by
their parents and the state. Actually, it is a good thing that they can no
longer take students with federal loans because those will be the same
students whose ineptitude will fail them and then they will want the
government to "forgive" their debt. LOL

------
thaumasiotes
Haven't read the piece.

This is a very interesting headline, though, since as I understand it the
federal nondiscrimination requirements for universities are tied to the fact
that students receive federal funding, and when universities tried to point
out that they can't tell whether a student's bank account has been filled by a
government loan or some other means they got shot down.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
They cannot see if the student is getting financial assistance in the way of
food stamps, for example, but the student loan and grant program isn't like
that. The federal money goes to the school first, and then anything above and
beyond that will be deposited in the student's account. Which means students
at this school now can either pay cash or get unsubsidized, non-garunteed
funding through the private market, probably needing a cosigner or good
credit. Some religious schools opt for this to be free from some types of
federal standards. They may have other sorts of financial options available,
but I'm not sure.

~~~
thaumasiotes
This is directly contradicted by [https://www.justice.gov/crt/title-vi-legal-
manual#Direct](https://www.justice.gov/crt/title-vi-legal-manual#Direct) :

> Federal financial assistance may be received directly or indirectly.(11) For
> example, colleges indirectly receive Federal financial assistance when they
> accept students who pay, in part, with Federal financial aid directly
> distributed to the students. Grove City College v. Bell, 465 U.S. 555, 564
> (1984)

Here's a summary from wikipedia (
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX)
) of _Grove City_ :

> The Court decided that since Grove City College was only receiving federal
> funding through the grant program, only that program had to be in
> compliance. The ruling was a major victory for those opposed to Title IX, as
> it made many institutions' sports programs outside of the rule of Title IX
> and, thus, reduced the scope of Title IX.[3] The ruling, however, was short-
> lived. The Civil Rights Restoration Act was passed in 1988 which extended
> Title IX coverage to _all programs of any educational institution that
> receives any federal assistance, both direct and indirect_.

(emphasis mine)

So, you're just plain wrong as to the state of the law; if the government
gives somebody a big pile of cash, and they use it to pay for college, all
federal regulations apply to the school. It is not necessary for the school to
receive, distribute, or know about the federal money.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
This doesn't change the fact that most federal loan and aid money goes
directly to the school first. I'm not even sure if one can get the federal
loans without working with the school.

It just appears that there are a few grant programs that pay directly to the
student. This doesn't change the way the loans are generally processed.

------
michaelbuddy
Whether for-profit or non-profit (yeah right) most upcoming freshman shouldn't
be eligible for any of these student loans. They are all predatory, and these
students have no credit history. I'd abolish loans for education completely
and watch the cost of college and books drop back to affordable prices.

------
nyargh
As a private university with access to federal student loans, you get a
firehose of financing, but aren't exposed to any downside from the defaults.
Students and taxpayers are the bagholders, and you've already cashed the
check.

------
NotSammyHagar
We should also stop allowing all colleges (including public ones) to graze on
the huge loans that their students get. If there were not endless federal
loans, public schools wouldn't be able to endlessly raise their tuition.

------
mavhc
"ITT is no longer allow to new enroll students who rely on federal loans and
grants"

washington post is no longer allow to cheque there articles.

------
esaym
Personally I don't think the government has the right to bar anyone from
getting any kind of education. Yes, some of these are a shame, but the student
might still learn something. And there's also the issue of time and
scheduling. Many older people don't have the time to go to a traditional
college and taking a 1 year program at night for a "2 year associates degree"
fits them better.

Even worse still, most of these tech type schools around where I am are "non-
profit". Not sure what that means or whats the difference, but they are just
as much as a shame. One is some "art institute". I knew a girl who's dad paid
$30K for her to go there for a year. She graduated but only worked briefly
afterwards, and then couldn't get employed again. There is another aviation
institute near me (also non-profit). Again $30K for 1 year of schooling.
Although most could get a job afterwards, they found out working at McDonald's
was far better than crawling around in a 110 degree aircraft fuel tank
checking for leaks for $15hr.

~~~
nkrisc
I think the government has a right to ensure that the aid it pays out for an
education is actually going towards an education, and not a front for
siphoning federal aid for the enrichment of executives and shareholders.

~~~
wang_li
>not a front for siphoning federal aid for the enrichment of executives and
shareholders.

So many public and private non-profit universities are going to wet themselves
if anyone starts enforcing that rule. Ok, they don't have shareholders, but
it's well documented that the increasing cost of university and college
educations is largely driven by administrative overhead and not paying
professors, adjuncts and lecturers.

~~~
Kevin_S
The increase in administrative overhead and such is more a case of the modern
customer. Comparing private non profit universities and these BS places is
stretching too far.

On the customers - the ability to attract modern students rests more on
amenities like dining halls and dorms, not on the academics. Sad, but
ultimately true.

~~~
wang_li
This kind of competition is only possible due to federal aid. There is a
certain amount of non-educational amenities being provided, but it's trivial
to find articles like these

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873233168045781614...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323316804578161490716042814)

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/06/higher-ed-
administr...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/06/higher-ed-
administrators-growth_n_4738584.html)

That document the growth in non-teaching administrative and professional staff
at universities. Staff that grow at more than double the rates of enrollment
and teaching positions.

------
yuhong
I think the way it started is that the agency threatened to take ACICS off the
approved agencies for accreditation.

------
crb002
This could be good for ITT going fully private. Much more control of it's
product.

------
douche
Now if we could just get them disallowed from running terrible TV
advertisements...

------
digitalabyss
I am an ITT Tech graduate who paid their way through school using federal
loans.

I earned my A.A.S in Electronic and Computer Engineering Technology and my
B.S. in Electronic and Communications Engineering Technology from ITT Tech. I
started the process in 2001. My total student loan debt was over $60K when I
graduated but I knew that would be the case going in. I don't buy this crap
about 18 years olds not knowing what they are getting into.

While my program of study was electronics engineering I always intended on
working in IT. I wanted to get my degree in electronics engineering because I
felt I would get more out of an instructor led education in electronics than I
would in IT. After graduation my first job was an desktop support specialist
for a software company which turned into a junior system administrator
position one year later. After one more year I switched to my current job
where I was hired as system administrator and am now a Senior Linux
Administrator. I make good money for the location and was able to pay off all
my student loans and put a down payment on a house when I was 32. In full
disclosure this was speed up by about 5 years due to my mom passing and a life
insurance policy I was the beneficiary on but it really only speed up the
process by those 5 years. I already was doing pretty well before she passed.

I had some outstanding instructors and I refuse to do them an injustice by
saying my education was sub-par or otherwise not worth the investment. Of all
my friends who went to normal state universities I am doing the best for
myself career wise. From what I heard from them at the time the state
university standards where dropping just as much as the private for profit
schools.

After earning my M.S. in Information Technology I went back and taught part
time as an adjunct for both the electronics and information technology
departments. I quit about 3 years ago when I moved about 1hr away and did not
want to commute. This was just supplemental income for me and never my primary
job so I was able to just do things my own way and not worry about the
repercussions if I failed to may students or did not haul the corporate line.
Things definitely where different by the time I went back to teach. The
standards where not what they use to be when I was a student. They also added
a lot of degree programs with attractive sounding names such as Digital
Entertainment and Game Design which attracted a much broader student base and
failed to provide any sort of meaningful filtering of who they accepted.
However the faculty was still a outstanding group of people who knew their
stuff.

I cant speak for other ITT Techs than my own. I'm sure for every person like
me who had a positive experience there are numerous people who could tell a
horror story about their experiences at ITT Tech. I just feel like a large
part of the problem is that ITT accepts people who are not college material
and these people are doomed to struggle or fail out and when they do they are
also a demographic of individuals who are more likely to blame the system than
accept any blame themselves. Perhaps it is ITT Techs fault for accepting them;
its certainly doing the schools reputation a disservice. But just like with
the student loans I have a hard time accepting people do not know what they
are getting into or filling sorry for them if they did not do their research
before hand.

I fully acknowledge ITT Tech has its fair share of problems which have gotten
worse over the years. I just don't think its particularly unique to them or
even for profit schools.

------
inputcoffee
The original title is actually "This really might be the end of ITT" which I
thought was clickbaity and didn't really explain the story.

~~~
emeraldd
On the other hand cutting off Title IV is basically the death penalty for a
university ... So the original title might not be that far off from reality.

~~~
inputcoffee
Clickbaity titles are "true" in the sense of being accurate. The issue with
them is that they don't explain what the article is about (forcing you to
click on them and then to figure out whether you are interested in the topic).

~~~
colejohnson66
Maybe it's just me, but the original also sounds like someone with a bias
against ITT would write

