

Support for gun control in America at a 50 year low. Are video games the cause? - learc83

I just read this article http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66874.html<p>In 1959 60% of people supported a handgun ban. Now only 26% are in favor.<p>Who else thinks this is because those of us who grew up playing video games are more comfortable with guns?<p>A bit of anecdotal evidence--Many of my otherwise very liberal friends own guns or are comfortable with them because they were exposed to them in call of duty, not by their parents.
======
hga
Without reading the article, if you pick those two data points (1959 and
"today") two very big things happened:

A big violent crime increase (if for no other reason than the baby boom) plus
the perception of it and a breakdown of the criminal justice system in the
'60s and '70s. Back in the '50s "juvenile delinquency" was the big issue and
we did have some tools that tried to deal with it, but those were largely
discarded, plus they don't apply beyond age 18 or so. ADDED: Also note the
deinstitutionalization of the dangerously insane which started in the '60s and
'70s, they're now dumped on the streets or into jails and prisons.

A national sweep of "shall issue" concealed carry licensing regimes started by
Florida in 1987 such that we went from 10% of the population being able to
carry concealed to 65% today (not sure if that includes Wisconsin, which flips
from no issue to shall issue November 1st). And of course every prediction of
the gun grabbers that this would result in a bloodbath not coming to pass.

Plus the baby boomers graying; my SW Missouri concealed carry class was
overwhelmingly early middle aged on up. As you get older, the reality and
perception of your ability to defend yourself and your loved ones without a
gun (America's martial art, after all) goes down. Heck, if you're like me you,
growing up with guns and hunting, you didn't buy them once you were on your
own until you had someone else to protect.

Many have commented on video games having an effect and I believe it, but I
think the numbers of people influenced by them are too small as of yet to have
had this great a change in _revealed_ public opinion (I don't entirely trust
any survey that asks questions about guns and I'll note that outside of the
recent meaningless SF handgun ban vote (because California has preemption) no
referendum on banning handguns has _ever_ passed in the US, not even in
Massachusetts in the '70s).

We (in the gun community) believe video game fans are an ever increasing
important part of "Gun Culture 2.0" and they fit right in with its emphasis on
self-defense and the many newer shooting sports that are both oriented towards
that and that are for most people more fun than punching holes in paper. For
example, "three gun" competitions, rifle/carbine, shotgun and handgun. (In the
hunting area, metallic silhouette shooting
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_silhouette_shooting> is another example
(although I suspect that's fun for just about any non-vegetarian :-), and of
course wing shooters have had clay pigeons to shoot at for a very long time.)

~~~
learc83
According to the article. "The trend did not appear to be related to...any
major shifts in American attitudes towards crime, fear of time, or reports of
being victimized, reports Gallup."

I thought that at first as well, however.

~~~
hga
Well, a good part of it could be a reversal to the American norm; American gun
control has gone through these phases, only the first of which could be
considered legitimate:

Pre-Civil War suppression of dueling.

Post-Civil War suppression of freedmen, despite the 14th Amendment.

Starting around the turn of the last century, measures against recent
immigrants (in the case of NYC, one set of older immigrants (the Irish)
against others (principally the Italians), hence the patrimony of the
_Sullivan_ Law).

Following that, crime was the excuse (the Roaring '20s and Prohibition) and
all but the elite were the target, and this just continued to increase.

With the exception of a counter-reaction to the Black Power movement and the
related big riots of the '60s. Keeping inexpensive guns out of the hands of
blacks was an explicit goal in this period.

Followed by more of the middle of the century stuff peaking with the Clinton
"assault weapons" "ban" that finally started causing tremendous political
damage, culminating in Gore's loss in 2000 (not the only reason of course, but
one of several that if not for any of them he would have won).

Since them, at the national level outside of safe seats (Schumer, DiFi (well,
maybe not in 2012)) gun control has become another 3rd rail of American
politics.

And the gun culture's counter-revolution has been quite successful, among
other things re-norming the ownership of guns. And these video games haven't
hurt one bit.

One thing I didn't mention but that might be relevant is the sharp decline in
trust of our ruling class, who's fruits were are enjoying at large scale in
the Great Recession and that otherwise rather resemble this bit from the
Deceleration of Independence: " _He has erected a Multitude of new Offices,
and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their
Substance._ "

But it's not so much that as the shear ineptness of our ruling class. No one
with a clue (often requiring some time in the real world) and the courage to
face the facts is confident that this ruling class is a good steward of the
nation's future, that we can trust them to take care of us. We're pretty much
on our own until (ideally) we have a Pareto circulation of elites, and much
can go wrong until then and after then.

I could go on but I think you get the idea. What I'm expressing should get a
hearing from people who are attracted to a site that's dedicated to people not
working for the man....

~~~
learc83
That was a Very interesting brief history of gun control. I've always been
hostile to gun control, because I believe in the gun's ability to act as an
equalizer--I believe it was a prerequisite for a modern, large scale,
egalitarian society (well _more_ egalitarian society anyway). Any recommended
reading on the history of gun control?

I'd also like to see a study on gun control support in other countries from
the same time period.

~~~
hga
For the former, I need to look around, I've been fighting it since the early-
mid '70s, not long after sugar price supports destroyed the moonshine industry
and the BATF was in danger of being downsized because their Revenuers were out
of a job. But they had this shiny new Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968 which
_completely_ changed the legal regime for gun sales and they preceded to use
and abuse it heavily.

For the latter, this book is supposed to be good, probably the best in
breadth, I've read quite a bit of the author's words and he's honest and very
good, and the used price is right: [http://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Mountie-
Cowboy-David-Kopel/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Mountie-Cowboy-David-
Kopel/dp/0879757566/)

I have to run right now, I'll see what I can come up with later (you might
want to add your email address to your "about" entry to make it easier to
contact you).

And your point about "a modern, large scale, egalitarian society" is spot on:
"God created men, and Samuel Colt made the equal" is the old saw. Adjust as
desired, e.g. the feminist version is "created men and women"....

~~~
learc83
Thank you very much for the recommendations. I'll have some time to read in a
month or so. I'm taking the Stanford A.I., machine learning, and database
classes at the moment so they are monopolizing all my free time.

I've also taken your advice and added my email to the about section.

------
blakdawg
Some other plausible explanations:

Gun control is often motivated by racism; as our society has become more
tolerant, racism has lessened, and so has gun control.

It's become obvious that gun control doesn't work. The cities and states with
the toughest gun control laws have the worst crime. One might expect that,
short-term (e.g., cities with bad crime would enact gun control laws) but over
decades, if cities like Chicago, New York City, and Washington DC where
handgun ownership is effectively impossible haven't see giant decreases in
crime as a result of their gun bans .. the only reasonable conclusion is that
the ban isn't working, and is either totally ineffective or is causing only
bad side effects.

Over the past 20 years, concealed carry of handguns has become politically and
socially uncontroversial - "shall-issue" concealed carry permits (which work
like drivers' licenses - if you are of age, pass a test and undergo
instruction, and don't have a criminal history, you're good) are now the law
in approximately 40 of 50 states, and we haven't seen the streets run red with
blood. Ordinary people are legally carrying guns when they want to and we
haven't fallen into some Mad Max world of road warfare. Because people now,
themselves, own and carry a handgun - or know someone normal and sane who does
- the overinflated scare stories of the gun ban lobby have been revealed as
the products of fevered (or racist) imagination and hence rejected.

~~~
hga
Agreed; the first point is sometimes called the "Don't Scare White People"
principle and as far as I can tell the bulk of US gun control has been racist.
See elsewhere in this discussion for a good starting essay on the subject.

Although I'd say that concealed carry is still pretty controversial, e.g.
watch the progress of the national reciprocity bill (I believe based on the
"full faith and credit" section of Article IV of the Constitution) that just
exited the House Judiciary Committee on a party line vote.

------
chrisbennet
Perhaps the erosion of our other freedoms has made us vlue the ones we have
left?

~~~
hga
Indeed; here are some related items about that:

9/11, both the attack and the perceived overreaction (or at least the security
theater part of it) did result in many people changing their minds about self-
defense and so on. The Katrina gun confiscations, some caught on video, also
had an impact. For that matter, as more and more excesses of the police get
caught on video ... you'll note that in the US Google got a lot of takedown
requires for those and refused ... well, those don't make people feel more
secure.

Take your pick of the Great Recession and/or the election of Obama, who's
history _prior_ to 2008 was relentlessly anti-gun except for HR 5441 in 2007,
that both outlawed Katrina style confiscations and critically provided a
private right of action against those violating it. Non-hunting gun and ammo
sales went way up _and are still higher than before then_ , even after we've
seen that Obama in action is no more anti-gun than George W. Bush. (Note that
"W", like Obama, was in favor of a renewal of the "assault weapons" ban, which
lapsed while he was in office, and again, no blood in the streets.)

The fact that despite these hard times people are still, 3 years later, buying
more guns and ammo is pretty amazing.

I'll close with two factoids:

The last time I checked we buy 9 _billion_ rounds of ammo per year.

Economically, the shooting sports are bigger than golf.

