
TurboTax to charge more lower-income customers - howard941
https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-tax-law-threatened-turbotax-profits-started-charging-disabled-unemployed-and-students#164493
======
vorpalhex
I have no issue with companies making profit but TurboTax is a bad product,
with terrible scam-esque profit strategies, and actively preys upon the poor.

Their "audit protection", the constant nag screens IN A PRODUCT I ALREADY PAID
FOR, their push for you to upgrade (with no discount at the end if you didn't
use the upgraded features), and so on. Tie that in with the "spend your refund
before you get" double dipping offers, and it's a scam.

I hate TurboTax, they have no real competitors, and the federal government
should make them redundant.

~~~
henryfjordan
The Federal Government cannot, by law, compete with TurboTax

~~~
PeterisP
Laws are designed by the government - if the executive branch cannot, by law,
compete with TurboTax, then the legislative branch is free to alter the laws
in whatever (constitutional) way benefits the society and explicitly delegate
some agency the power (and duty!) to make TurboTax redundant.

~~~
maximente
it'd be great if it worked this way, but it's already been captured at both a
federal and at least 1 state level:

[https://www.propublica.org/article/congress-is-about-to-
ban-...](https://www.propublica.org/article/congress-is-about-to-ban-the-
government-from-offering-free-online-tax-filing-thank-turbotax)

[https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-
fought-t...](https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-fought-the-
tax-lobby/)

~~~
clairity
yah, businesses making money via legitimately adding value is awesome; making
it via rent seeking and regulatory capture sucks.

turbotax could still have a lucrative business by building on top of free
filing with value added services, but no, they want government-protected
profits. it's dishonorable.

and it's a symptom of money controlling politics. we need to figure out how to
allow politicians to be productive and contributive without money being the
measuring stick proxying power.

------
itslennysfault
Anyone using TurboTax should switch to
[https://www.freetaxusa.com/](https://www.freetaxusa.com/)

I don't work for either company. I'm just someone that used TurboTax for 5
years and switched this year. Intuit has a huge history of lobbying against
simplification of tax code, and there was even a bill to create a government
run self serve e-file platform that Intuit helped kill. Also, Free Tax USA is
a better UX and it's "free". Federal is free you pay like $10 to file state. I
live in WA (no state income tax) so it was totally free for me. I paid $6.99
for the premium support just 'cause I wanted to give them some money 'cause I
appreciate the service.

------
matthijs
Great podcast about the TurboTax ProPublica articles:
[https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nhgol/144-dark-
patt...](https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nhgol/144-dark-pattern)

~~~
djhworld
I'm from the UK but listened to this episode, one of the shocking aspects to
it was they set noindex directives on the FreeFile site - although looks like
they've removed them since

[https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-deliberately-
hid...](https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-deliberately-hides-its-
free-file-page-from-search-engines)

------
astrea
I don't even understand the tax preparation system in general. As a newly-
minted Adult, I find it rather frustrating that I collect all the documents
that the government and I both have (or they've sent me) and fill out one big
form that condenses all that info. Then if I mess it up/lie, the government
comes after me. Ridiculously inefficient system.

~~~
vonmoltke
> I collect all the documents that the government and I both have

Our tax system is terrible and convoluted, but this statement is not actually
correct. In may cases you get copies of tax forms from businesses before the
IRS has processed the business return, possibly before the business return has
even been submitted. Business and personal returns are processed in parallel
and cannot be reconciled against each other until they have all been done.
That's why audits almost always have at least one tax year of lag, because
that's how long it takes to get through everything. Filing extensions make the
process even worse.

~~~
astrea
Ah okay. I just assumed that the fact that my paycheck itemizes the tax
withholdings that they were already receiving or at least aware of my taxes to
date.

------
acdw
Don't use TurboTax. I found out about IRS's VITA[1] program a few years ago
and it's been a game-changer. The only real limits is that you make less than
$55K, and it specifically targets those with disabilities and limited-English
speakers. When I went, my preparer even said that they don't really care if
you make more than $55K, as long as the return isn't super complicated.

[1]: [https://www.irs.gov/individuals/free-tax-return-
preparation-...](https://www.irs.gov/individuals/free-tax-return-preparation-
for-you-by-volunteers)

------
FluffyKitty
If you're in Canada, and want to stop supporting TurboTax, I recommend giving
SimpleTax.ca a try. It's free for everyone, but you can donate after you file
your taxes if you want. I was also very impressed with their privacy policy
[1].

[1] [https://simpletax.ca/privacy](https://simpletax.ca/privacy)

------
CalRobert
If you're able to do your taxes by hand but just want to efile, there is
[https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/](https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/)
. Terrible UI (and the emails about failed form validation are comical) but it
works, and is free.

------
kup0
I used H&R Block this time around (I just picked a competitor, no real reason
for specifically choosing H&R), because I ran into the same thing. The student
loan interest deduction was free through them.

Most competitors were offering it for free, still, so I'd just say dump
TurboTax like I did. I'll never go back.

There were quite a few competitors I considered. H&R even allows import of
TurboTax files which saved a bunch of time.

------
danielfoster
TurboTax isn’t the IRS and it isn’t their responsibility to help tax payers
navigate the overly complicated tax code for free (to the extent that the
company doesn’t lobby for complex tax laws). Congress should create a
streamlined tax filing system for everyday people.

Students also should not be charged for filing with a 1098, but I would also
expect anyone in graduate school to be able to file a simple tax return on
their own.

------
thetruthseeker1
Enterprises like these are free to make whatever decisions they want and I
don't think it's fair to evaluate them with morals that seem to imply they are
evil. What I mean is : this enterprise is not a monopoly, and there is
competition, and it is free to fail ( unlike some banks lets say). If some
other tax website provides better value, people are free to move to that.

~~~
chillacy
I agree people are too quick to reach for labels like evil when the reality is
that systems create incentives and groups of people follow incentives
(basically don’t hate the player hate the game) and do an amazing job at
rationalizing their actions as good (we’re all the protagonist of our own
stories).

However we don’t have to throw in the towel and let these things run wild. If
TurboTax exists by the grace of rent seeking and fixing tax filing at the
federal level increases our overall productivity/happiness then we should try
to change the system.

------
basseq
On a meta level, this is a little biased and click-baity: the Trump
references, the "abuses of power" mission statement, the emphasis on "the
Disabled, the Unemployed and Students".

In short, Intuit moved from previously-free features to their paid tiers. This
move _may have_ disproportionately affected low-income taxpayers, though—if
true—that impact was unintentional, not targeted.[1]

The article cites several different features that were monetized and affect
lower-earning taxpayers[2] as well as those affecting higher-end earners[3],
but doesn't state that this list is comprehensive, and doesn't prove that
impact was disproportionate.

ALL THAT SAID, there's still some crappy dark patterns here, as well as
broader tax-ecosystem improvements that would benefit taxpayers that Intuit
has fought tooth and nail to block. So I'm certainly not defending Intuit
here, but I'd find more objective reporting to be more compelling.

[1] "The income levels of the groups that were being driven to paid products
'was never really considered.'"

[2] "One of these forms was for a tax credit that goes exclusively to poor
taxpayers who are elderly or get disability benefits. Another is used by low-
to middle-income households that receive a credit for putting money in a
retirement account." (Which, if it's what I'm thinking of, applies to above-
average earners, too.) "A third is used by taxpayers who collected
unemployment benefits." "And then there are people with student loans, who
also have to use Deluxe." (Unclear if this is a _change_.)

[3] "The company’s changes also affected parents who get a credit for child
care expenses, as well as people filing the schedule for interest and
dividends."

~~~
threezero
Why would you say the impact on low-income people was unintentional? Do you
think that Intuit would release a tax product without an analysis of who it
would affect? It feels like you’re giving Intuit the benefit of the doubt here
when numerous sources, including Intuit employees, say that Intuit
deliberately set out to increase revenue at the expense of lower income
taxpayers.

~~~
basseq
I'm quoting the article:

 _> “They were always supposed to be customer focused, customer first,” one
former staffer said. But the income levels of the groups that were being
driven to paid products “was never really considered.”_

Where's the numerous sources that said Intuit deliberately set out to increase
revenue _at the [disproportionate] expense of lower income taxpayers_
(emphasis mine)?

~~~
freeeee
This is basic logic.

The "Freefile" product is only supposed to be free for lower income people, so
when Intuit misdirected everybody to the (non-free) product which they named
"Free", they exclusively harmed lower income people, as the higher income
people were never entitled to free filing.

(that entitlement is due to an agreement with the IRS, where the IRS agreed to
limit competition in the tax filing industry in return for the development of
free file products).

edit: also note that it is absolutely not an accident that Intuit used these
names which make it almost impossible to talk about their non-free product
which is named Free, and their actually free product which is named Freedom
and Freefile.

~~~
basseq
That's a good point, and a valid one, _but not the central thesis of THIS
article_. (ProPublica has previously written articles on that.[1])

[1] "But, as ProPublica has been reporting, Intuit has steered eligible
customers away from the truly free version, aggressively marketing products
that are called “free” even though many customers end up paying."

------
mnm1
I don't blame TurboTax (Intuit). They do what any company in that position
would. Hell, a good percentage of companies that exist probably shouldn't
exist. TurboTax is definitely one of them. I blame our shit government for
making such deals and not creating proper legislation. That's why such shit
companies exist. There's literally no solution to this. Yeah, one can vote but
that isn't actually a solution as it clearly doesn't get anything done. We
have a failing government that is not and may never have been representative
of any of its people, save for the ultra-rich. That's the real failing here.
TurboTax is just a symptom of this disease.

~~~
opportune
You should blame Intuit since they lobbied for themselves to be put in this
position

~~~
mnm1
And who wrote the laws allowing bribery? Congress. That's where the blame
lies. If you create a system that can be abused, it will. If you create a
system that's corrupt, why are you surprised when there's corruption? Blame
the disease not the symptom. Our government is the disease. Corporations like
intuit are just symptoms of the corruption. Legal corruption is still
corruption. As they say, this is a feature not a bug from our government's
point of view. Greatest country in the world for people who love to bribe.
Corruption in most other places pales by comparison. Most places in the world
outlaw bribery of government officials. We embrace it. So what if people get
ripped off or even lose their lives? Business above all.

