
Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders - ComputerGuru
This is just a friendly note/advice/rant to everyone responding to the HN Who's Hiring listings.<p>I've been asking around and I hear the same thing over and over again from people/startups/companies that list their positions in the HN Who's Hiring: applicants are putting zero effort into their emails.<p>Just in the past hour, I have personally received 8 responses for a business development position that were simply "Hi, saw your listing on HN, here is my LinkedIn. Call me."<p>Guys, this kind of email does not get you hired. It will especially not get you hired when your LinkedIn profile is set to super private and the only thing I see is your picture. Even worse is when you don't even bother to send an email to the poster directly and it's instead just BCC all the emails in the Who's Hiring thread. And even worse is when you apply for a position that's not even the one being offered. Take the time to actually read the posts: just because a listing contains the word "developer" does not mean it's a <i>software</i> developer. Business Developer != Software Developer!<p>Some friendly advice: if you at least click on the links in the posts, take a look at the startups' sites, and just mention in your email "I see your product/service X, and think it's interesting" the value of your email and the chances of getting contacted in regards to the job shoot up infinitely more.<p>HN Who's Hiring is not CraigsList. It's mainly quality people posting because they know there are quality readers looking to get hired. Put a tiny bit of effort into the emails you throw out, it's an investment that will pay back greatly! Remember, this is the first impression you are making on someone who might be your future employer! You're often not dealing with HR staff/agencies, and will be likely directly in touch with the person you'll be working with/for should you be hired. Show some effort, make it look like you at least care.<p>Yes, it's not easy to sit there and read about each of the companies and what they're working on, but it is a hirers' market and if you don't show the initiative and stick out as someone who is earnest about becoming a valuable member of the team, why would anyone bother replying? Especially when startups are looking for the top talent (whether they need it or not is besides the point), HN is full of A-list developers/founders and A-listers only hire other A-listers. Your "meh, here's my info, you do the research about me and if you're interested call me up" is not the kind of attitude that inspires confidence and will not get you a job.<p>I know for a fact that HN is chock-full of quality talent both hiring and looking to be hired. It is sad that this is the sort of response people posting job listings have been getting. For the sake of the entire community, put a little bit of effort into your email shots. It's better (and is a smarter investment) to look through the listings, get a feel for what companies are working on stuff that would interest you, and spend a couple of hours drafting 10 personalized emails explaining why <i>you</i> are the answer to the question than to simply ctrl+f "developer", ctrl+c, bcc, ctrl+v, rinse, repeat, send.<p>tl;dr if it'll take the company more effort to reply to your email than you put into sending it, you're doing it wrong.
======
Udo
I was absolutely with you until

    
    
      but it is a hirers' market
    

which, even if it is (and that's debatable), is not the correct reason for
anyone to behave differently. In this case, applicants should not be reading
the actual postings because it's a hirers' market and hirers are now somehow
considered royalty. Instead, applicants _should be_ reading them because it's
basic curtesy and not doing it ends up wasting everybody's time. If it became
an employees' market over night that rule would still apply.

Having the upper hand (imaginary or real) should not play a role here. This is
a bad place for expectations of entitlement.

~~~
niggler
It is absolutely a hirers' market if the market is for a low-level coder. Many
people, especially coming from an engineering background, have the requisite
programming and computer science experience to do what you need.

It's a hirees' market at the rockstar level, as always.

~~~
ig1
As someone who's recruited heavily at the entry level, you're mistaken. Even
substantial number of computer science graduates lack the capability of basic
coding (i.e. "here's the detailed specification of this function; go implement
it"). There is substantially more demand than available talent.

SF, New York, London, Amsterdam, Berlin, etc. all have huge talent shortages.
Even developer markets that were relatively soft in the past such as Poland
and India are starting to become competitive as the war for talent becomes
more global.

~~~
Swannie
For London I strongly disagree.

When start-ups, profitable ones, are offering £35k + bonus + stock options
(worth £0), for senior developers, in Central London, there's not a talent
shortage.

Similarly skilled developers are getting £35k+ & bonus outside of London,
where the cost of commuting/living is significantly cheaper, in established
companies with full benefits packages, that don't expect them to work 50 hour
weeks. Inside London, those devs who are working in finance are getting paid
£45k+, big bonus, gym, laundry, etc. thrown in, with the same workload
expectation.

Experienced (and good) Senior iOS developers in London are regularly being
offered less than £40k.

No surprise many talented staff have left London, for equivalent salaries,
less stress and cheaper cost of living (especially as they hit the age where
kids appear in the picture).

No surprises many younger devs look at the £25k starting salary in London,
where transport and rent will cost them £1000/month, vs. £25k out of London,
where it will be more like £500/mo, and decide that London is not worth losing
£6k/yr _after tax_.

~~~
ig1
As it happens I also used to run a developer recruitment startup (CoderStack)
in London, so I'm intimately familiar with the market.

While there are certainly companies trying to hire iOS developers at 40k,
there are also companies trying to hire iOS developers on 80k+ and iOS
contractors on day rates of £500/day.

What you're probably seeing is selection bias. That is the crappy jobs (i.e.
low pay) stay on the market far longer than good jobs. Hence you end up
thinking that crappy jobs represent a large proportion of the job market than
they actually do simply because they stay around longer.

~~~
Swannie
You are right, I'm almost certainly exhibiting selection bias. As we all know,
the best jobs don't even go on the wider market, such as jobs sites, but are
filled by word of mouth referrals, or conversations at events.

But if I go and search:
[http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml?page=2&row_offs...](http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml?page=2&row_offset=10&keywords=senior%20developer&salary=0&jobtype=all&postedwithin=all)

You will see most senior dev roles advertised with a range, that seems to
average out about £45k. That's for the whole country, and London seems no
different.

Personal experience with London based recruiters was that despite jobs
advertising £60k, the number that the recruiter had from the client was
actually lower. When asked about the requirements for getting the top end of
the pay scale, "Well, they really only want to pay low 40's", was something I
heard time and time again, and caused me to not apply, time and time again.

Crappy jobs? Maybe.

EDIT: Also, I've seen an expensive corporate salary survey (shh, don't tell
HR), and whilst London mid-senior people have seen a good bump to their salary
in the last 2-3 years, the averages there were approx: junior ~£28k, mid-level
~£36k, senior ~£47k, architect ~£60k, dev lead ~£72k).

------
moocow01
Perhaps you should interpret it as feedback that its not a hirer's market. In
a market where most people have many opportunities the incentive to respond
with a high effort response is very low. The better thing to do would be to
consider the casual emails you get as leads to a potential hire - you'll have
to put the effort in. Additionally what you are seeing is likely not by
mistake - its an indication that hiring right now for applicants is in many
cases more of a numbers game than it is about crafting a great cover letter.
That being said I honestly don't think you are doing yourself much good with
this sort of message - I'd just do the best that you can with what you get
back.

~~~
gfodor
There is a difference between "low effort" and rude. Not taking 30 seconds to
actually comprehend the position and have enough background to actually write
a meaningful email basically would rule you out of me hiring you since it says
a lot about how you would be to work with.

~~~
alxndr
You should see the kind of messages I get from recruiters.

~~~
anthonyb

       "Dear Anthony, Thankyou 4 ure notes in LinkedIn about
        contacting u - much easier to know that you're approached
        all the time. U r too experienced for my role, but if you
        know of any mid level Python / Linux developers happy 2
        discuss referral $$if I can place them:) Happy Friday!"
    

(Actual recruiter message on LinkedIn - I keep it around to remind me why I
don't talk to recruiters)

~~~
asveikau
I had a good laugh at that quote, but now I'm thinking: is it legit to cite
one or more persons doing their job poorly to dismiss the entire profession?
Do you keep around bad code to remind you why you don't talk to programmers?
Examples of quack medicine to remind you why you don't talk to doctors?

~~~
anthonyb
Essentially every recruiter message that I've received on LinkedIn follows one
of two patterns:

a) Hello, you do Python, do you want a job? (with no position details, salary,
reason to join, etc.)

b) a) followed by a clumsy attempt to fish details of my contacts (I don't
connect with recruiters).

So, er, yeah - "Ha ha, profession!"

~~~
asveikau
I don't doubt the abundance of bad behaviors. I was just doing a literal parse
of your logic.

~~~
anthonyb
There actually really wasn't any logic in that statement.

I'm not saying "I have this message from a recruiter, therefore all recruiters
are scum." It's a _reminder_.

------
raganwald
I like this: _tl;dr if it'll take the company more effort to reply to your
email than you put into sending it, you're doing it wrong._

I don't particularly care whether it is an employer's market or an employee's
market. My rule of thumb is that if your email is going to jobs@foo.com, you
can send anything you want. But if you are sending an email to a person by
name, it is a matter of courtesy to write a personal note.

Likewise, if that person replies to you from their personal email, you deserve
more than an obvious form letter, even if it's just a single sentence.

~~~
SilasX
Totally. Your scraper/emailer for Who's Hiring should at least include a
sentence like, "I particularly like the part about [random string from
posting]". I mean, _come on_ , that's not much harder than fizzbuzz ...

------
wwweston
I completely agree that it's courteous (and often more effective) to give the
communications you send the level of attention you'd like them to receive.

But is this true?

> it is a hirers' market

I hear a lot about the war for talent and devs having to beat away recruiters
with a stick.

> Take the time to actually read the posts: just because a listing contains
> the word "developer" does not mean it's a software developer. Business
> Developer != Software Developer!

Fun fact: this mistake apparently gets made on the hiring side too -- last
November there were some jobs posted on StackOverflow Careers with titles like
"Children's Development Programming Executive" (it was for developing
children's tv/video programs).

~~~
bcoates
I don't think it's even meaningful enough to be false. Buyer's Market/Seller's
Market is a phenomenon of markets with easy substitution and very sticky
prices, like houses or street vendor hotdogs.

Both the jobs on offer and the people applying are quite specialized and
mostly just looking for a very good match given the massive up-front costs of
hiring or taking a new job.

------
dizzystar
I totally agree with your rant, but the fallacy is that you are posting with
the absolute expectation a certain level of talent to apply, when this is not
the case. HN attracts under-qualified programmers along with high-quality
programmers, and I suspect there are far more of the former than the latter.
You're more likely to get the low-quality programmers because they are more
likely to be looking for work, especially in a field where who you know can
get you a job easier and with less effort than sending off resumes to
companies.

I didn't apply anywhere, but if I had, I would certainly write a well thought-
out cover letter because I would rather not apply to everyone and I understand
my chances are quite a bit lower than the company's expected talent level of
the baseline applicant, so I would want to focus on places where I have a
semi-decent chance. If you are applying to a job via HN, then it is a given
that the company is setting a high bar for talent.

~~~
mackwic
That's totally true ! Moreover when you know for sure that the guy who read
your mail is himself a very good programmer, that he saw dozen of little guys
like you, we really have to make intensive efforts in our letters.

But we also have to keep in mind that's only a mail : an article won't be
read. So, even if we fall in love with some startups (HN startups have such
amazing projects, I spend hours reading your blogs about your work), even in
this case we can't send a poem in your honor. The letter have to be well
balanced.

... and that's how I spent four hours for sending only one letter to one
company. Faith in the fact that the good work pay, you know what it is.

------
niclupien
I've applied to many positions (internships) advertised in these threads with
a lot of effort to craft each email for each of them. I don't speak english so
often so it took me a very great amount of effort to do this. Got only 1
reply, the others didn't even bother saying "Thanks for applying" or anything.

I don't know if this behavior is normal but I would expect a bit more from
hirers advertising on HN. Especially when they ask for very specific things
that I know I got on my CV.

~~~
rwg
I don't think that's an "HN employers" thing as much as an industry thing.

I've been unemployed for nine months, though I've only been seriously applying
for jobs in the past three. (I consider the first six months a well-deserved
vacation. Employers apparently consider it the mark of the unemployable. C'est
la vie.) I've received exactly zero (0) replies to job applications that
weren't automated "we got your application" e-mails. Even at a company where
my CV was handed directly to a manager by a friend who worked there, the
manager stopped communicating with me after his initial "we'd like to set up a
time to talk to you" e-mail.

I completely understand that employers get bombarded with applications for
every single position they post. (When our department posted a [low paying]
Linux sysadmin position, we received over 100 applications, of which maybe 25
had anything to indicate that the applicant had ever used a computer, let
alone Linux.) But a simple "thanks but we're not interested" e-mail would
certainly be nice when you've been eliminated as a candidate for a job...or
were never actually a candidate to begin with.

The silence of the job search quickly becomes deafening.

------
prunebeads
I sort of agree with you, but there's also a form of over expectation from
recruiters and HR services. In order to pass the screening tests, sometimes
applicant must have demonstrated skills to save the world, and have proven
track records of having done so. 3 times. I read this linkedin blog entry a
few days ago where it was said that in order to be considered worthy of an
interview, the applicant must show how much of a difference he brought in his
previous job. This is completely silly. Not everyone can claim to have raised
the company income by 235% by successfully reorganising from scratch the
workflow of the engineering team. I am only slightly exagerating. Maybe that's
just me taking things too literally. Or maybe I suck at what I do, but
everywhere I worked, success was more the result of good teamwork than of the
efforts of one single person. Yet simply stating that one is a good team
player is not enough.

Yeah, everyone can say: I am a good team player. And every HR can say: Our
company provides the best working environment. Hypocrisy on either sides leads
nowhere, but it seems like it's still the expected standard.

I think that a linkedin profile can be enough. And if the profile isn't
publicly accessible, there might be a good reason: privacy. So why not simply
ask? At least it would show that the application is being processed. Or
perhaps there's an option somewhere on Linkedin which let a user directly
grant access to his profile to people handling job offers when they apply, and
you just rant about those not seeing that option.

------
virmundi
Can we make a trade? Who's Hiring posts will have a clause that says, "Sorry,
but we're only looking for folks willing to relocate to X. Don't contact
otherwise", in exchange you get better emails? Sounds fair to me.

~~~
swombat
Most of the posts specified a location, and mentioned whether remote workers
were acceptable.

------
eksith
That's rather unfortunate.

I'm not sure if it's now a hirers' market or not; I'm not out for a new job at
the moment, but I would never, ever send an email without tailoring it
specifically for the place I'm writing to. At the least I'd go to their site,
see their products/services, look at the demos and look into their history.

    
    
      >"Hi, saw your listing on HN, here is my LinkedIn. Call me."
      >...just BCC all the emails in the Who's Hiring thread.
    

This is just plain rude! It shows not only a lack of respect to the company
they're applying to, it's just a lack of manners altogether. Even if someone
isn't serious about applying (and by the looks of the emails you got, they
weren't) there should be some basic etiquette at play when communicating
professionally.

Email isn't Twitter with more chars.

------
Ovid
Completely agreed. I'm trying to hire software developers who are willing move
to Amsterdam (at the company's expense, complete with work permit!), and
respondents show all the enthusiasm of a dead fish. The company I represent
repeatedly rejects candidates who don't seem excited about the opportunity and
if they saw these original emails, they'd reject many of the candidates out of
hand.

Instead, we work with the candidates to coach them on how to present
themselves to a company and how to improve their CV/resume. As it turns out,
most of our applicants _are_ excited about the opportunity, but they've never
been taught the basics of how to hunt for a job. I'm not sure why that is. Are
programming jobs always so plentiful that people assume no effort is required?
(Actually, that _is_ sort of true. I came to programming after a decade of
mostly service jobs and I'm inundated with recruiters without even trying, but
I still remember my days of living on pot pies and ramen, so I put effort into
applying).

TL;DR: many people dream of living and working in Europe and I'm handing them
the opportunity on a silver platter, and I _still_ get the "here's my CV"
three-word emails.

------
lhnz
Are you insane?

What kind of place do you come from in which jobs are rarer than developers?
Aren't you normally paying recruiters through the nose to access me?

(For the record, I'd write a good message if I felt like the job was for
A-listers, but the reality is I just read a lot of them and I can tell that
most of these places aren't there.)

~~~
TallGuyShort
Your second line sounds self contradictory, so I'm not 100% sure which
imbalance you think is implausible, but I've live in 2 US cities that
definitely had a surplus of developers, and 1 that definitely had a surplus of
jobs (the latter being the one I believe to be more common). They both happen.

~~~
lhnz
I meant that jobs are in greater supply than developers - developers are rarer
than jobs. This is true where I live at least (in London.)

Having said that good jobs seem as rare as good developers...

------
orangethirty
I tested this and when I send two line replies to the ads in the hirin thread
I get a better response than when I send my CV. Go figure.

~~~
frek21
Probably because once you send the CV they have enough (!) data to make a
decision on whether you would be good fit, but with a two line email they can
either disregard it or ask for more.

~~~
orangethirty
That's probably it. Plus there is an added benefit of a reverse filter. I
don't want to work with any company that will, at the least, exchange a couple
of emails with me. Any company who disqualifies me from just looking at my CV
is not a good fit. Team chemistry for me is very important. I don't want to
work in a place full of incompatible personalities. Not fun.

~~~
pyre
Plenty of places with good teams may have poor hiring practices.

~~~
bvdbijl
How can a place get a good team if their hiring practice is poor?

~~~
pyre
Hiring practices aren't a constant. They may have changed their practices for
the worse.

------
smoyer
So you put zero effort into a attempt to reach the top-echelons of software
developer/entrepreneurs and you expect the applicant to customize a resume?
The person you'd like to hire most likely has a job, as well as a few offers a
week from people that are actively seeking them out.

If you really want to reach this type of employee, you'll have to send
individualized notes saying you have an open position, that you already
understand the person's capabilities and why your company would be a great
place for them to work.

tl;dr If you expect to reach the best employees by putting a few paragraphs on
Hacker News, you're doing it wrong.

------
niggler
I've talked to some people who have tried, and the ultimate conclusion was
that adverse selection works against you: the people you think are really
bright on HN don't end up applying, and the people who reply usually have some
problem that makes them unappealing. This is true of all places you could look
to hire people, though, so you shouldn't have any higher expectations.

~~~
pekk
"the people who reply usually have some problem that makes them unappealing,"
said the obese and unattractive man about the dating site he uses to find
dates.

------
EwanG
As one additional data point to consider, anyone who has had their information
posted to any of the job boards, or ever submitted once to a consulting
company, gets dozens of solicitations a day where it is obvious that the
person (if not robo mailer) saw a keyword and thought it wouldn't cost
anything to send a "personal" request for you to reply. Even if you are a 100%
match you often won't hear anything back.

Given that, I can't say I'm surprised that many people feel that what's sauce
for the goose is sauce for the gander...

------
sravfeyn
I should probably post a "Dear HN 'Who's hiring' posters". And put following
content.

With the same token that you say HN is not a CraigsList, when an HN-responder
puts an effort in going through their product and writing a personal note
inquiring about a possible opportunity at their company, posters should have
the courtesy to respond to the responder acknowledging that in-spite of their
good/bad profile they can't hire him/her.

I know these two advices are from me to you and you to me. All the remaining
folks who have been one-liners will continue to be so.

Btw, I am a graduating student from IIT Delhi, who have applied to many
startups that interested me with a personal-note and list of projects I have
done with clickable-links. While about 10% of posters responded saying that
they did like my profile but can't take it further because of visa, remaining
90% never responded.

While I am not the best engineer, when my detailed & clear personal
application doesn't get an acknowledgement reply, I can imagine why responders
are just sending one-liners. If posters want to hire, they will hire from one-
liners. No point of detailed-personal application.

On a side note, my profile with links to projects is
<https://gist.github.com/sravfeyn/13534c67812183235a2c/> I am hunting for an
engineering position at a start-up with product-innovation.

~~~
vellum
You should get someone to proofread your writing. Your English is very good,
but there are still a few things that sound weird. People spend 30 seconds
skimming your CV/profile/resume. If you can make it more readable, it can only
help your cause. I'd recommend going to fiverr.com and finding someone with a
lot of good reviews to proofread your CV, profile, and cover letter.

~~~
sravfeyn
Hey, thanks for taking the time to read and give such a valuable insight. Can
you tell me what sounded weird. I have made a Google Doc, if you have minute
please leave comment in the Doc. [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mab-
wHgNyTzGGBTdRiiY9yKZ...](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mab-
wHgNyTzGGBTdRiiY9yKZoBDBkPspTyzVQpYFOuQ/edit?usp=sharing)

I will have it proofread by my friends.

~~~
marklabedz
Consistency is important. There are multiple styles (Chicago, APA, MLA, AP,
etc) - picking one and sticking to it makes your writing more readable.
Subconsciously, a reader will come to expect certain constructions or a
particular flow (e.g., serial/Oxford comma or not). Think about consistency in
areas such as document layout/structure (bullet points or prose), sentence
structure, word choice, and punctuation.

------
randomor
There is then the other scenario when candidates put out a well thought out
letter after few hours and only to hear no response, black hole. I, for one,
do not really get systems like jobvite and no email and direct human contact
for hiring developers who you "value".

------
jpdoctor
> _tl;dr if it'll take the company more effort to reply to your email than you
> put into sending it, you're doing it wrong._

No no no, they're doing it right.

All those lame responses? You think you're gonna get better behavior after
hiring?

It's not a response so much as an organization intelligence test. You hire
'em, you get what you deserve.

~~~
pekk
Cuts both ways. Stupid hiring process - you think you'll be treated better
after getting hired?

------
prakster
> "it is a hirers' market". It's NOT a hirer's market; what planet are you
> living on!

~~~
swombat
It is in most of the world. You're presumably living on planet Valley?

------
uzair88
To those who are applying for a biz dev role like this: do you honestly expect
to get a job where you will be selling for your company (whether it be vision,
product, etc.) when you cant even sell yourself to get a job?

Finding a job isnt a game of percentages. Or atleast finding the right job
isnt (imho). Find the 2-3 jobs you really want and spend the time to make the
recruiter believe you could actually sell for their company one day.

------
jawns
I found out about my current employer (Monetate) through a HN "Who's Hiring"
post, and we've hired several other developers who first heard about us here.
I agree with OP that HN readers have a reputation for quality, and I'm
surprised that he's seeing so many low-effort responses. I've seen several
employers set up "nerd hurdles" that require potential applicants to do
something that takes a modicum of effort (and talent) before they can apply --
e.g. coding challenges. Maybe that can help weed out less-serious applicants.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"I agree with OP that HN readers have a reputation for quality, and I'm
> surprised that he's seeing so many low-effort responses."_

This shouldn't be that surprising - if indeed you're looking at a pool of
highly qualified people you should _expect_ to see less effort in
applications.

There's a line to be drawn at being professional, but if the individual is
experiencing extreme demand for his/her services, do not expect them to sell
you _that_ hard.

> _"I've seen several employers set up "nerd hurdles" that require potential
> applicants to do something that takes a modicum of effort (and talent)
> before they can apply -- e.g. coding challenges"_

I'd be careful about this. I've done some of these when they tickled my fancy,
and I've done them when I was impressed by the company enough that I actively
_wanted_ to work for them.

Almost everyone in the HN Who's Hiring posts are _not_ in the above category.
I'm sure you're working on cool stuff, but one paragraph is not enough to get
me to salivate at your position, and not enough for me to invest a
considerable amount of time.

If you want applicants to put in more effort, consider marketing yourself as
someone worth said effort. It is most certainly _not_ a buyer's market right
now (not in the HN crowd anyways). Most Who's Hiring posts don't even include
anything meaningful about the employer.

"We're in SF and looking for a Rails guy" is not a very compelling sell.

------
dinkumthinkum
Your advice is basically common sense. I would find it hard to believe that
you are actually reaching anyone here, though. :( If you're the type of person
to send out the "meh" emails, are you really likely to be the type of person
that reads this kind of post and says "AHA! I shouldn't do that?"

------
4nil
Where does one draw the line? How is one guaranteed on the ROI of drafting a
good response.. I used to go the extra mile, spend time writing a good cover
letter, personalizing my resume for the job and most of the time I did not
even get a response.

------
zerni
And while you (the hirers) are at it you might as well put in your listing if
J-1 interns are welcome ;)

I lost a couple of hours (yes, I bother to write an proper answer) writing
mails only to find out that interns from overseas are not welcome.

~~~
mackwic
Yes. Please do that, dear hirers. That's such a deception to know that "It
would be OK, if only you were an US citizen".

That hurts.

------
groundCode
>> tl;dr if it'll take the company more effort to reply to your email than you
put into sending it, you're doing it wrong.

from my side of the table, when I was interviewing (about 6 months ago),
probably 8 out of 10 startups that I applied to and interviewed for didn't
bother to contact me again - not even a polite "thanks but no thanks". I'm not
arrogant enough to think I'm the perfect fit for every company I apply to or
even that I aced every interview, but I would think common decency dictates at
least a response or acknowledgement after an in person interview.

Two sides of the same coin, in my opinion.

------
cosmie
I constantly hear people complain about how few applications they get a
response on. Yet, I've always had a pretty great response rate when I start
applying.

This advice/note/rant just clarified a potential reason for the differential.

------
rwhitman
Yea I discovered this from the seeking freelancers post, I had to stipulate
that people drop at least a link or resume, otherwise I was getting emails
like "I write Python. Email me. Thx."

Please folks I get that you are in demand but not pasting even a link in the
email is just plain lazy and a little rude. You don't realize it but you are
actually competing with 30 other people per listing, HN gets more exposure
than you think...

------
dustingetz
the people you want to hire don't need to be told this

------
eli
Poor cover letters are really one of my pet peeves.

Dear Applicants: Why would you send me what is very obviously the same
cover_letter.doc that you send everyone? What do you think it says about you
as a candidate if you couldn't be bothered to replace "Dear Hiring Manager"
with my name? And that little informal note in the body of your email ("Hi,
saw your ad on X. See my attached cover letter and resume"), that effectively
becomes your cover letter. It's the first thing I read when you apply. Make me
want to open your resume right away.

So what should you write in the cover letter? Not single right answer, but
here's an idea: Most jobs--especially at startups--are really about solving a
problem that the hiring company has. Sure, the job title might say "DevOps
Ninja" but if you read carefully you can figure out that what's really going
on is the company has grown rapidly and needs to get serious about its messy,
hacked-together infrastructure. Address this in your cover letter. Talk about
how organized you are and how you once recabled a data center in a weekend,
etc.

~~~
pekk
If you want someone to get serious about your messy, hacked-together
infrastructure, then please put it in the job ad rather than requiring people
to become psychic or claim they are Gods of Engineering in the cover letter in
order to pique your interest.

Because we demand that everyone guess what you want and turn the sales knob up
to 11, you are getting a lot of applications from people who could better
disqualify themselves, and lots of dishonest bullshit to filter in
applications. If we would all be more honest and just say what we mean then
this would all be easier.

------
logn
Funny, as all the emails I get from recruiters are basically one-liners with
some fluff and they've clearly not read my profile. However, I agree with you,
except that it's not a hirer's market for good engineers. I know. I've been
trying to hire as many people as I can for the last few months. I've found a
few.

------
jacques_chester
I feel like, with a few word replacements, this post and all the replies could
come from /r/OkCupid.

~~~
softbuilder
I came to roughly the same conclusion from the emails I received from my "How
to Hire Me" post. People make all of the mistakes there that they make with
online dating. From an abstract point of view it is the exact same problem.

~~~
jacques_chester
Right, with similar failure modes. For example: people firing copypasta emails
to reduce the writing cost per-application / per-message.

When I have an OKC account, my strategy is just to write the first half-funny
sentence or two that come to mind, shoot off the message, and move on.

Even when I apply for jobs and write a cover letter, what do I do? A dating
site message with a funny accent.

    
    
        Dear Companyboss,
    
        I write in reply to your advertisement of <date> in the Foobar Herald.
    
        I am <skills/titles>. While working at <previous employer> 
        I used <technology/skills>.
    
        I have included my CV and I look forward to your reply.
    
        Yours &c &c
    

Writing short messages isn't because the writers are lazy. It's a rational
strategy that maximises coverage and minimises the emotional cost of being
rejected after making a large investment.

~~~
vacri
Absolutely - you need a minimum of a cover letter to indicate which job you're
going for and where you saw it. The resume should then do the talking for you
- if it's nothing but a dot-point list of skills, it needs rework.

------
rdouble
That sort of email only doesn't work if the resume is bad, or like you say, if
they have their profile settings wrong. If it's a good resume, a brief email
is preferable.

~~~
tracker1
That was my thought, and has been my experience as well... In the past when
looking, I've usually done about two sentences, and attached my resume. My
personal site has my resume in a few different formats, so they can take their
pick... I haven't updated it in a while, as I'm pretty happy where I am, and
the past 3 jobs I've had started without any down time after the prior job.

I would say it's definitely an hiree's market. I've removed my profile pretty
much everywhere I have ever put it up, and still get 3-5 contacts a day. This
is without the newer projects I've been working on (and newer
technologies/frameworks).

I think that given how much developers are simply pursued by recruiters who
put in no effort, I think that a few sentences and an up to date resume are an
appropriate introduction.

------
Kiro
It's funny how both hirers and applicants think they are the ones who set the
rules. This thread is as bad as the "if you're a recruiter..." posts.

------
tgalvin
Whenever I send a "cold" email trying to illicit some type of response that is
good for me, I like to add some product/company thoughts and ideas. First, it
shows that you've spent a bit of time thinking about the company. Second,
you've delivered value to that person and create a situation where the person
feels they SHOULD respond to you.

------
kposehn
> if it'll take the company more effort to reply to your email than you put
> into sending it, you're doing it wrong.

Oh so true.

------
neltnerb
I completely agree. If I'm looking for a job seriously, I won't make my first
impression saying "call me" it will be an email asking questions about the
person posting the information's thesis research...

------
ryanjodonnell
TL;DR's should go at the top of the text, not the bottom.

------
namenotrequired
I totally understand it's frustrating.

But I don't think you can change them with a post like this and I don't think
you should, or that you even want to. People that would be doing this
(regardless of whether they follow your advice or not) aren't the people they
want to hire anyway.

If this post is the reason why they try, then they're not good candidates
either way. If they follow this advice they're only making it harder for you
to weed you out. Sure - that's what they want, but not what you want when
you're hiring.

------
briholt
I'd take the opposite approach: be glad when applicants send such poor cover
letters because it immediately lets you know you should NOT waste your time on
them. Some one who would send such a bad boilerplate cover letter is lazy for
not sending an actual letter, technically inept for sending links to a private
LinkedIn profile, and has a poor theory of mind regarding what an employer
would like to see. This especially bad for a communication-heavy position like
BD.

The much scarier prospect is if that applicant actually read this and sent you
a real cover letter. The applicant hasn't actually improved their poor skills,
they've merely learned a trick to conceal them. This makes it harder to filter
them out and you'll end up wasting more time on them if you brought them in
for an interview. Ever scarier, while juggling 100 other startup tasks, you
might let a bad candidate slip through the cracks, into the interview process,
and then actually hire them. You just lost about 1,000 company workhours
across your team in trying to cajole the bad person into being useful before
you finally give up and let them go.

~~~
joonix
Cover letters are useless. Really, try to have some empathy for people trying
to get jobs in a tough market (I guess this doesn't apply to the currently
employed or developers...). You have to apply to a LOT of stuff, and employers
almost never give the courtesy of a confirmation or any sort of
response/rejection. It takes a LOT of time to put contact info into Word,
change around your cover letter template, save, and attach.

Ask for a resume, that's it. You can shoot a note back asking "Tell me more
about yourself." if you want to know more. Then it's worth the time to write
one up. Then you can ask for references, and transcript, etc., if that's your
thing.

~~~
lessnonymous
They're not useless. I discard any application I get that doesn't have a cover
letter. I'm WAY more interested in your cover letter than your resume as it
tells me a lot more about you than your dot-point-resume will ever tell me.

To be fair, the job ads I place specifically tell you what to put in a cover
letter. So if you reply without one, then it's a super quick filter to see
that you didn't even read the ad.

If you don't want the job enough to read the ad, I don't want you enough to
read your resume.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
I discard any employer that requires a cover letter. Cover letters don't tell
you anything. If you think they do, you don't know how most people write them,
and you probably miss a lot of good candidates.

It's an unreasonable demand. You're not the only place that I am applying.
Either I send all fifteen of you a generic cover letter (which is likely no
better than not sending one), or I customize it for each of you, which
probably takes about another hour per application. It takes you 5 minutes to
read.

If you like my application, I have to cut time out of my work day for everyone
at your company to call me back, usually at least three times (recruiter
initial contact, manager contact, technical phone screen). After that, I take
a couple of my paid vacation days off work for on-site interviews. I have to
make arrangements for someone else to look after the kids because I'm out of
town overnight and the wife does shift work. I have to work a few more weeks
to replenish those vacation days if it doesn't work out. All the while, I
still have timelines and can't tip my current manager off that I'm looking
elsewhere. Again, multiply this by a few companies - maybe three or so get to
that point. That's costly, but necessary and understandable. At that point,
there is serious consideration for a working relationship, so such demands on
a candidate's time are more reasonable. And don't forget, at least one of you
likely has some sort of programming assignment or problem set that you use
after the phone screen, which I will spend several hours on.

To top it off, I'm going to guess that you don't even have the decency to post
salary range in your ads. And, your recruiter is going to try and ask me about
my salary history, but fail to mention the budget for the position, and my
first indication won't come until there is an offer letter.

So, anyone who does this, thanks for self-selecting!

~~~
mootothemax
You're doing it wrong. I just want a quick note explaining briefly who you are
and why you're applying. It shouldn't take more than five minutes.

Seriously, try hiring someone, the influx of irrelevant applicants and those
who won't take even thirty seconds to read your ad is truly dispiriting. If
you make even the tiniest effort with your application, you will stand out,
guaranteed.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
I dont think I'm doing it wrong. I do what you say, a quick note. Maybe two
sentences. That's not a cover letter though, like GP is requiring. It's
certainly not _more_ information than is on my resume. The thought of a cover
letter that exhaustive is a little bit crazy, frankly.

If it sounds like I'm complaining, it's not because I'm frustrated, but
because it's slightly offensive to see that being demanded. In my experience,
their internal recruiters monitoring inbounds are usually ringing me before my
finger is even off the send button. They don't seem to look for or care about
a cover letter, and I haven't had trouble getting offers, even from top tier
companies. And honestly, I don't even think I'm that impressive. From what I
can tell, anyone who has fogged a mirror at a half-respectable tech company
already will at least get a phone screen these days.

When I was previously involved in hiring, I don't recall ever seeing cover
letters on inbounds either. When asked in person by potential candidates, I
always told them not to.

~~~
mootothemax
_I dont think I'm doing it wrong. I do what you say, a quick note. Maybe two
sentences. That's not a cover letter though, like GP is requiring._

You and I may disagree on this point then; I consider what you describe to be
a cover letter.

 _In my experience, their internal recruiters monitoring inbounds are usually
ringing me before my finger is even off the send button._

Honestly, I think you include more than you're letting on. Whether it's a
short sentence in your application email, something tailored in your CV, or a
short cover letter - basically, stuff you think is unimportant because it
takes you 30 seconds to do, for maybe a grand total of a few minutes per
application, and so you assume that other people are also doing this.

I think that the sheer number of people who make _zero_ effort means that even
small stuff like including the person's name, if listed, at the top of the
email _really does_ make a difference.

------
radiusq
Not sure what you expect when you're seeking "business development"
applicants. These are normally the kinds of guys who'd rather bullshit with
you over the phone than give up any real details about themselves.

------
yarou
Perhaps it was an April Fools' joke, because if anyone were serious about the
position, they wouldn't put:

"Hi, saw your listing on HN, here is my LinkedIn. Call me."

------
michaell2
in related news, "Report: Unemployment High Because People Keep Blowing Their
Job Interviews" [http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-unemployment-high-
be...](http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-unemployment-high-because-
people-keep-blowi,17803/)

