
Can education change Japan's 'depressed' generation? - druml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32013613
======
mikekchar
Having worked as a teacher in Japan for 5 years, I really take odds with this
story. Japan is really, really different from the west. Take the survey about
being happy with yourself -- I'm actually surprised that half the Japanese
people surveyed actually said they were. It doesn't mean that Japanese youth
are depressed. You just don't say that you are happy with yourself because it
can limit your development, it makes you look vain, etc, etc.

It frustrates me to no end because this lack of understanding perpetuates
really hurtful stereotypes. Things are not perfect here, of course, but this
reporting is absolutely off the mark. Japanese people are no more soulless,
depressed automatons than Americans are psychopathic mass murderers.

Please don't measure cultures using a yardstick from your own culture. Do not
extrapolate from peculiar societal problems into thinking that there is an
overall systemic failure. Different cultures have different problems and
different ways of dealing with them. This kind of "journalism" is voyeuristic
at best and hate mongering at worst.

~~~
byuu
There are an inordinate amount of amazing things about Japan and the Japanese;
and it's why I've spent over a decade studying the culture and language.

But it's not really fair to use only rose-colored glasses. There are serious
issues with _extreme_ conformity and group-think in Japan. Yes, there's
exceptions to everything, but overall it's far more extreme there than it is
elsewhere.

Expectations for how you are supposed to behave and interact are much more
strict; and that sort of thing really does rob people of their individualism,
to some extent. And you can see this by way of Japan having the seventh
highest suicide rate in the world; with only two countries significantly
higher than theirs.

Surely, every country has its problems; but that doesn't mean we shouldn't
talk about any of them.

> You just don't say that you are happy with yourself because it can limit
> your development, it makes you look vain, etc, etc.

Tell that to the producers of the TV show Cool Japan :P

(For those who haven't seen it, it's a show that brings in tourists from
around the world to gawk about Japanese exceptionalism in all things; while
the Japanese hosts inquire why other countries are so backward by comparison.
You probably think I'm exaggerating; but I can assure you, it's actually even
worse.)

~~~
mikekchar
Cool Japan definitely makes me cringe. That is a great example of stuff that I
really would rather not happen. Or if you look at the English version of the
Japan Times which seems to want to attract foreign readership by slamming all
the negative aspects of Japanese culture. There is unfortunately a lot of
money in this kind of thing.

I probably should never have posted what I did. That kind of poor
journalism/entertainment which exploits "we're better than them" attitudes
exists everywhere in the world. A random rant in HN is not going to change
that. If anything it simply polarizes opinion and invites the trolls to
control the stage. I wish I could think of an effective strategy to change
opinions on this topic.

~~~
byuu
Oh, definitely. Nationalism is a problem everywhere. I think it stems from
sheltered lives and closed-mindedness. The best thing we can do is to tear
down the unbelievably fierce restrictions on immigration that exist in
literally every first world country. You shouldn't have to be extremely lucky
(land an ESL teacher spot), rich (degree/investor), or marry someone to live
abroad in the 21st century. We should have open borders.

I don't mind your post and wasn't trying to be a contrarian. Just that I
really do worry about this issue there.

But being honest, even after having studied Japan since high school, I still
barely understand some parts of their culture. For one example, 遠慮 (enryo) is
a concept I'll never comprehend. They say it shows humility to decline at
first; but to me, it feels like it turns the tables and makes the gift-giver
feel like the one that has to forcefully impose. It would make _me_ feel bad
to beg someone to accept my gift. I'm willing to go pretty far to "act like
the Romans", but this is one thing I couldn't bring myself to do.

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deciplex
I'm not sure why learning English and working abroad is supposed to curb
depression? What does one have to do with the other? The article just sort of
jumped from "depression" to "working abroad" without really establishing a
link. I suggest there isn't one. I mean, in addition to working 80-hour weeks,
new recruits have to attend English lessons as well?

If Japan was serious about curbing depression it would take serious measures
to reign in the permanent overtime a lot of employees find themselves in,
where many are staying in the office until nearly midnight. By "serious" I
mean fines and possibly jail time for employers that allow it to happen
without reason, or allow it to happen regularly even if they have a reason.
And don't rely on reporting, either - start doing audits. If that sounds
severe, remember that these are the people whose government formed a committee
to investigate why so many Japanese companies required their workers to come
in on Saturdays - which committee itself met every Saturday. "Soft
paternalism" is probably not going to cut it.

The drinking culture here probably doesn't help, either. Alcohol's links to
depression are well-known.

~~~
rhino369
Maybe the reason is that so they can go work abroad if they aren't fitting in
with Japans conformist culture.

Though the immigrants I work with seem to just reconstruct the same pattern of
behavior. My Japanese office mate works til midnight every single night for no
reason. I feel sad for the poor guy.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Part of that is that the Japanese excel at processing reams of pointless
paperwork to get any little thing done. In addition, the strict social
hierarchy forces workers at the bottom of the ladder to stay later than their
superiors to demonstrate their commitment to the company. This leads to the
ridiculous 12 hour work days possibly followed up by mandatory drinking with
the boss after work.

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dunstad
I get the feeling that the first paragraph or so is trying to make this
Japanese school sound somewhat dystopian. I can't help but be amused by that,
thinking back on reciting the Pledge of Allegiance every day in gradeschool.

~~~
ivanca
The army isn't going to fill itself.

~~~
kleer001
What if it did though? What if an army was a self sustaining force? Gathering
raw materials from the land, reproducing quickly to fill its ranks. That
sounds horrible, like ants... sorry for the weirdo sci-fi tangent.

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mc32
The fascinating part of the indoctrination toward citizenship isn't so much
the bowing in unison and redoing it till the bow is perfect, it's rather the
inane but repetitive instructions over communications systems _everywhere_ at
school, in the subway, in the stations, at department stores, public spaces,
always a calm soothing voice reminding you what you are to do next. It's
pervasive. It's also interesting from a cultural perspective.

~~~
IkmoIkmo
Tell me more :) I mean I kind of know what you're referring to but I've never
really read much about it. It'll either be really dry academic stuff, or some
over the top Vice article that makes any culture look like that of North
Korea. And while I've watched a fair bit of Japanese cinema and all, and
having visited neighboring countries but never Japan itself, I sort of know
how it's like but also not really, at all, so I'd be interested to know more.
Cheers

~~~
escherplex
If you haven't already, I'd suggest downloading 'Japan: An Attempt at
Interpretation (1904)' by Lafcadio Hearn (free for Kindle or as an .html from
Project Gutenberg). Although sympathetic but culturally chauvinistic by
contemporary standards this study does supply a corpus of interesting
observations on the history of a Japan rapidly transitioning from micro-
managed hierarchical feudalism to a form of Euro-inspired modernism, with
associated strengths and weaknesses. And this while engaged in a war with
tsarist Russia. What Japan was shapes what Japan is.

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fidz
I have seen about "Hikikomori", but only in anime and Wikipedia. I am really
curious. Do they really exist? How could they live without work? How do they
make money?

~~~
cskau
There are several good documentaries out there on the subject. I can't name
any of the ones I've seen off the top of my head, but I'm sure googleing will
yield plenty.

Quite a lot of young Japanese live at home even through their university
years, and it seems the common case of hikikomori is that they just never
leave.

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jimpick
I'm depressed that the food here isn't as good as in Japan.

