
Ask HN: Random upper back pain is ruining my life. At wits end. Anyone else? - anm89
I&#x27;m writing in total desperation. I feel like I can&#x27;t make it through another day of meaningless, constant back pain. I&#x27;ve had it on and off for 7 years now, since I was 24 (now 31)<p>It&#x27;s this weird vibrating, tingling, burning, muscle sore combination that moves between the left side of my neck, under my shoulder blade, my left trap, and sort of out to the back of my ribs right below my shoulder blade. The pain moves around and sometimes I&#x27;ll get a similar feeling on the other side of my body which makes it all the more confusing.<p>I&#x27;ve been to doctor after doctor after doctor and I have absolute no more info then when I started.<p>I&#x27;m on the verge of quitting my job because I feel like I can&#x27;t go through another day tomorrow.<p>The only thing I&#x27;ve ever correlated with more or less pain is how hydrated I am (ie less pain if more hydrated) and even that is pretty loose.<p>Has anybody ever gone through anything like this? Has any body ever gotten over it or am I doomed to this for life?
======
ent101
I've been dealing with a similar issue for about 11 years now: severe chronic
back pain that wouldn't quit, caused by a bulging disc. The pain would often
show up in random places or travel down my legs giving me a burning/tingling
sensation.

I tried physio, chiropractors, acupuncture, yoga, cycling, swimming, multiple
doctors, and pain killers with no luck. The only thing that really helped me
to substantially decrease the pain and put it under control was lifting
weights! I got a personal trainer who had experience in this area and over 3
months he helped build the foundation and teach me how to work out properly,
this was 6 years ago. Strengthening the lower back muscles and regular
exercise has reduced my pain by about ~85%; however, the pain does come back
if I don't exercise for more than a few weeks.

Maybe exercise is not the solution for you, but I just wanted to tell you that
even though this pain might make you feel helpless and depressed, if you
search long and hard enough it is likely that you'll find the solution. Don't
give up!

~~~
orasis
One note of caution here - I tend to overdue it on the chest work which
shortens the pec minor and exacerbates upper back pain. I need to mix in a lot
of pec stretches and rowing work to balance things out.

~~~
t-h-e-chief
Oh 100% was my issue too. Lots of chest work, then stopped going to gym. My
back weakened and knotted right up my neck into the fascia. Actually caused my
eyes to water (I swear I wasn't crying)

------
wayoverthecloud
Copied from a thread comment I read years ago which changed my life.

>I suffered from chronic pain that was starting to seriously interfere with my
life for a couple of years. I could find neither a cause nor non-invasive
solution till I read The Mind-Body Prescription[0]. It quickly and completely
fixed my problem. I actually learned about the book here on HN: I'm usually a
very skeptical person, but enough self-proclaimed skeptics (who were
embarrassed to admit they even read it) claimed success with it that I decided
to check it out.

I highly recommend reading it (with an open mind) if you're suffering from a
chronic ailment that lacks an obvious physical cause. I used it for chronic
pain, but the author claims success with just about any other type of "catch-
all" diagnosis that doctors make when they're stumped, like IBD.

BTW: the doctor is an American psychiatrist with a long career, so it's not
your usual alternative medical book. But I consider it "alternative medicine"
in that it's based on similar principles as some other alternative medicines
and the theory does not seem to have any sort of acceptance in the western
medical community. (The author cites his evidence, and provides his
explanation for why the medical community rejects that sort of evidence.)

[0]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FA5SJS](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FA5SJS)

~~~
galoisscobi
Made an account to say that I had really bad wrist pain that was making my
life hell. I found about this book in an earlier HN thread. I read the book on
a Saturday and by Monday all of my wrist/hand pain was gone. Thank you for
sharing this and hope it helps someone.

------
cbanek
I've had similar problems to this, although my back pain is a bit higher, and
creeps into my neck and jaw. I think I've lessened the pain a lot, but it is
always somewhat there. Here's what I've learned, tried, and done. Just going
to say though this may not work for you, since it might be completely
different.

For me, it is my right side, not my left (and I'm left handed). But sometimes
I will get pain on the other side as well. I think it's a combination of RSI
as well as getting rear-ended by a car. I've never gotten surgery, but I have
tried almost everything.

I started with going to the doctor, getting opiates and muscle relaxants. The
opiates helped a bit, but the brain fog made it harder to do my job. The
relaxants didn't help much. In the end, my back was so tight, it was like a
rock, which then became the source of the pain as I couldn't get it to relax,
and the stress would build.

Then I started getting professional massages. If you haven't tried this yet,
let me assure you, they are completely worth it. Professional massage
therapists are amazing, and they really know the body, and have probably dealt
with dozens of people with pain like yours. They are a great resource and as
good as a doctor IMHO for showing you exercises and stretches, since they will
feel your body and know exactly what is tight and/or seemingly wrong. Doctors
never seem to get to that level of detail, they are just too busy and don't
have the time, nor are they as touchy-feely in general.

Massage, pain killers (especially ibuprofen and other things to reduce
inflammation) and heat (hot baths, jacuzzis, spas) really can help to relieve
symptoms. Even a few days break from the pain is good. I would also suggest
medical cannabis, just because the chronic pain is bad, which makes stress,
and that only makes the pain worse. I've had off and on luck with
chiropractors, although I don't think it was as helpful as massage, but it is
generally cheaper (and covered by health insurance). Also, check how you
sleep! I noticed a lot of improvement once I got a new mattress, and I
realized sometimes sleeping without a pillow and having my neck flat was
better than a pillow.

Once you manage the symptoms a bit better, I would suggest doing strength
training exercises. This really changed my life. There's a few weight training
exercises that will help strengthen your back and correct bad posture. After
doing these for a couple of months, my pain was greatly reduced and for some
times, eliminated. It was never heavy weight - 20 lbs would do it, it's more
about resistance and doing a lot of reps, getting the range of motion in and
breaking up the tightness. When you're done doing some lifting, ask yourself
if the parts that hurt are tired now? That's how you know you've targeted the
right spots. For me, this one exercise changed my life (not my video, sorry
about the loud music):

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a9JBPQVKz0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a9JBPQVKz0)

After doing 20-30 reps, I would feel so tired in all the same places that used
to hurt. Ask someone at a gym for help if you need (usually they will do it
for free, if it's not busy, and just one exercise). It's hard to notice your
form and if you're doing it correctly.

I would also suggest you check your ergonomics of your workspace. Are you
standing or sitting? I've noticed that if I don't have an adjustable desk, I
am always either too high or too low to be comfortable, and it's not great
ergonomics. Get an adjustable desk even if you don't want to stand. Although
standing can be helpful for maybe 5 - 10 minutes an hour. Don't try to do it
all the time. Also, get a good chair. I have never been happier with a chair
than my Aeron, and it was worth every dollar of the $1000 price tag. It has
lasted years.

It sounds like from your post that the pain is mostly while you are at work,
and not necessarily at home, although I'm sure the pain follows you. If you
know what triggers it, sometimes that can lead to valuable clues. Sometimes
it's my nervous habits that would do it, such as sitting strangely (like on my
foot, legs crossed, etc) or leaning on one side of my chair.

If your pain is so bad, I would suggest not quitting your job, but asking your
doctor for a medical leave of absence. That way you won't lose your health
insurance, and you'll still get paid. That's what it is there for.

Sorry for all the rambling, but I wish you the best.

------
Dennizz
For me, regular exercise got rid of the back pain that I used to get from
working at a desk. This took about two months until I didn't feel any pain
anymore. In those two months, I experienced more severe back pain though than
I had before. As it turns out, this probably came from eating too many nuts.

So as I started working out more, I also began to eat more healthy, including
lots of nuts every day. After a couple weeks of this, I started getting this
intense pain in my upper back on the right side, which I never had like this
before. I was having this pain for about two weeks and it was there
constantly, no matter if I was sitting at a desk or not. Any massages that I
got to address this didn't help.

According to a video
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcrii9_Um0I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcrii9_Um0I)),
eating lots of nuts bloats up the gallbladder, which then presses on a nerve.
This can lead to pain on the right side of the back and, although I didn't
experience this, pain in the neck and headaches.

I then stopped eating nuts and the pain was gone two or three days later.
Today I do eat nuts again. But if I eat lots of them every day for weeks on
end, the pain does come back, although I never had it as severe again.

So maybe even though your pain tends to be on the left side, dietary changes
could be worth a try.

------
Halophile
One entity to consider in your differential diagnosis is that of contraction
knots, aka “trigger points” in muscle fibers. They are a common cause of
referred pain and can also cause all sorts of symptoms if the contraction
knots also impinge upon blood vessels, nerves and/or automatic fibers. Because
Western medicine basically ignores mechanical issues that aren’t amendable to
surgery, it can be tough to find a doctor who can diagnose trigger points
properly unless they’ve been trained to do so.

I went through a somewhat similar problem a decade ago where I had
excruciating pain and burning to one side of my sacrum for years. I could not
sit in a chair for more than 20 minutes, and could only sleep on my stomach. I
went to doctor after doctor who put me through test after test, only to end up
with no diagnosis or relief. One day I happened to be scrolling through the AM
dial when I came upon a show where someone was talking about piriformis
syndrome, a type of trigger point that resulted in symptoms identical to mine.
I found a doctor who treated it with myotherapy and the rest is history.

I recommend The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook by Clair Davies NCTMB and Pain
Erasure by Bonnie Prudden. Also Quick Study makes a nice Trigger Points chart.
Truth be told, I’m surprised this issue isn’t discussed more given the
occupational hazard created by sitting in front of a computer all day. I hope
you feel better soon. Please keep us posted on your progress and take care.

------
haltingproblem
Sorry, you are in so much pain. There is a lot of good advice in this thread.

A related story. I had lower back pain on my right side for almost 20 years.
It was not as serious as to seek medical attention but there were days I felt
it consistently while getting in and out of chairs or beds, sometimes acutely.
A couple years ago I took up Functional Mobility training. During the
functional movement screen they pointed out that I was favoring my right side
more than the left because the right was stronger and that was likely causing
the QL to pull and shorten the right leg and lead to lower back pain. A few
trips to a massage therapist and _corrective_ training to stregnthen the left
leg made the problem go away for good.

We have body imbalances and mobility deficiencies because manufacturing
defects ;) Lifestyle and environmental factors like sitting at a desk hunched
up or tensing up the muscles in the neck in response to stress makes these
deficiences worse. Almost all of us also favor the upper traps too much for
everything from breathing to lifting/carrying and use the lower core sparingly
or not at all.

FWIW, you should consider visiting a massage therapist/physio who specializes
in functional mobility and works with trainers who can provide long term
corrective training.

I hope you feel better!

------
tomhoward
There was a thread [1] here a few days ago about the book "The Body Keeps the
Score", which examines the link between emotions and physical pain.

I posted the comment [2] that is still top of that thread; basically I've been
living this for many years. I've certainly found that chronic back pain (which
I've experienced) responds to deep emotional healing.

Physical exercise is important too; I'm not claiming, and you shouldn't accept
anyone else's claims, that emotion-based treatments will magically heal the
pain without exercise or physical therapy.

But the reverse applies too, and the subconscious mind can certainly keep
muscles tense and joints out of alignment for a long time, in spite of any
exercise or physical therapy you undertake.

I'll repeat the offer that I made in that subthread: I'll be writing a
document or perhaps rather starting a discussion forum, so that I can explain
everything I've experienced and learned, and allow others to take what they
need from it.

Feel free to email me (address in profile) to be included.

Be assured, there are things that can be done. I know how you feel, but trust
that you don't need to suffer like this forever.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340636](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340636)

[2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21341101](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21341101)

------
notmyname259
1\. It would help to know what doctors have said so far so that we can
eliminate some from our hypotheses

2\. I had a minor case of myofascial pain which has reoccured over 2 years but
physiotherapy gets it down and strength training helps it stay at bay

3\. However my girlfriend, who had a fundamentally similar pain has been
suffering for more than a year and a half with days when she is bed ridden. It
doesnt help that she's a biologist so her work at the microscope severely
messes up her neck. The pain and stiffening keeps increasing, there's soreness
and what have you. It is diagnosed as fibromyalgia.

4\. The way we have gotten better at managing it is. a. Physiotherapy. I can
comment more on this once I know about how much of this maps on to your
condition

b. Harm reduction of the occupational hazard(which applies to desk job folks
too).

c. Very regular exercising

d. Majorly, diagnosis of nutrient deficiencies. She's been a vegetarian all
her life so she was deficient in protein, Vitamin D and B12. Supplements
helped with her recovery.

e. Some CBT. Chronic pain fucks your brain and muscular pain is exacerbated by
mental distress. So mental health managrment is part of our stratergy for her.

Im sure this is super hard man. Don't give up. It's really about finding the
right path.

------
MoZeus
Yes!! This description especially of the maddening tingling, buzzing pain and
inability to pinpoint the location of the pain sounds exactly what I started
dealing with in my early 20s (except on the right side). I had this on and off
throughout my entire adult life. Long periods of standing or sitting still or
working at a screen/computer definitely aggravated the problem for me. For me
the resolution came one day in my mid to early 40's in a yoga class that I'd
gone to not realizing it was a bit more challenging than I'd expected (it was
a partial ashtanga series class) The instructor responded to my look of shock
and horror that we were going to attempt full wheel (a back bend) by saying
(correctly, as it turned out) "you can do a back bend". From that moment of
fully opening my spine in that inverted direction, I have never experienced
that particular, horrible creeping, tingling pain/numbness again. Sure, I've
had pain and discomfort of various sorts over the ten or so year since Mark
said " you can do a back bend", but I have never had that particular, chronic
creeping tingling pain.

~~~
nwienert
As a smallish counterpoint. I had chronic lower back pain for much of my 20s
that increased until 29. I tried yoga around 27 and got pretty into it. I’m a
flexible person so the back bends weren’t a problem, but after a few months I
started to get a new thing: shooting, sharp pain that felt like a pinched
nerve. It was definitely from the back bends, and once I stopped yoga it
stopped.

Over the last two years I’ve “beaten” the back pain. I only ever get it on the
rare occasions I pull super heavy work days and don’t stay mindful.

There was no magic bullet for me. You have to keep moving positions. I never
work for more than 35 or so in the same position. Lean forward, mid, back,
then take a break. Even lounging at intervals. Posture work is just a lot of
small things and improvements at margin.

------
hwwc
For me, back and shoulder pain increases with time spent in front of a
computer. Probably a combination of posture and weakness.

Yoga, mobility, and strength training (weights or body weight) have
significantly reduced my back tension.

Ymmv, and I don’t know all your details. Feel free to ping me if this
resonates though.

------
jvagner
I’ll second all the recommendations to work out. A bit of strength training,
and a bit of calisthenics. Your report also calls into question your scapula
and thoracic areas. It can take a bit of skill development to get the form
right, but it’s worth trying. Happy to dig into this further.

Also, two other recommendations:

* check out a Feldenkrais practitioner. How we hold and move our bodies can be adjusted. Also, you might also check out the Alexander technique. I think this is less likely, but it might lead you to something. I’ve also found massage to be really helpful.

* somatic psychotherapy may be helpful if you have a psychological trauma manifesting in your body. Somatic psychotherapy is healing the mind through the body. Trauma and armoring can be tremendously powerful partners.

~~~
mathgenius
I second these recommendations. Also, some other ideas: pilates, swimming,
argentine tango (it's amazing what dancing with a beautiful person in your
arms can do to pain.)

------
locusm
Threw my back out multiple times a year for about 3 years and it was
paralysing. Learned fundamental Yoga exercises and now do a couple of them in
bed when I wake up and a 30 min night time session 3 times a week. Haven't had
a single issue since beginning this routine.

------
GregDavidson
I recommend studying the short book "Treat Your Own Back" by Robin McKenzie
and also finding a physical therapist familiar with his techniques. I was in
similar distress and it was fairly quickly resolved by these techniques and I
have also observed these techniques being effective for several other people.
Physicians in the US are not trained in physical therapy yet physical
therapists in the US are only allowed to apply physician-prescribed
treatments! This can lead to some bizarre Catch-22 situations until you find a
highly experienced physical therapist who can work with you. Checking if they
use the "McKenzie methods" is a touchstone.

~~~
downerending
Seconded. I've had several episodes of acute pain (agony, really), and these
ideas, together with similar things discovered on the Internet and YouTube
seem to have resolved the situation for me.

There are many possibilities, of course. Be your own scientist. And
especially, try things with little downside first.

------
mrfusion
It’s odd, this sounds exactly like what I had for a couple years.

It would start with a Sharp pain around my ribs And then in the next day or so
it would move to my back. My guess is that the back muscles worked too hard at
compensating for the rib pain somehow.

Two main things helped. Stopped doing sit ups and most ab exercises. They
triggered the rib issue pretty consistently.

Also starting take magnesium supplements. I feel it coming back sometimes if I
miss a few days of supplements.

(Also you mention the hydration link, that sounds like it definitely could be
an electrolyte issue. So magnesium for sure and also try to get more
potassium)

------
psv1
1\. See a physiotherapist

2\. In the meantime give your body position some variety - standing vs
sitting, left-handed vs right-handed mouse use etc

3\. Get a lacrosse ball and make a habit of doing a few minutes of manual
therapy on your upper back each day - between the shoulder blades, just over
them, and on your traps, all of these with your shoulders in varying positions
- there are quite a few decent articles and youtube videos about this.

4\. Seriously - see a physiotherapist.

------
nkurz
Finding medical advice online is always hit or miss, but I had severe upper
back pain for quite a few years that matched many of these characteristics. To
my astonishment, the problem turned out to be gastric and related to stomach
acid. After lots of tests that ruled out lots of things, it was eventually
solved by an doctor who had a similar issue himself, and suggested that I try
a high dose of Prilosec just to see if helped. I was extremely doubtful (since
the pain was not in my stomach) but since like you I was desperate, I tried
it. Behold, it helped almost immediately, and within a couple days I was
almost pain free.

I eventually figured out diet and sleep position changes that let me stop
taking the Prilosec (mostly sleeping with a wedge and allowing several hours
after eating before sleeping) and now I mostly have the problem under control.
At the least, knowing the cause and how to fix it makes the occasional pain a
lot more manageable. While this might not be your exact problem, consider that
it might be. And if nothing else, have hope that maybe you'll eventually find
an equally unlikely solution that gets you past this current pain.

------
nemonemo
Given that your symptom is related to hydration, I wonder if the pain could be
related to kidney stones. An internet search gives me an article that says the
pain location may move as the stones move around:
[https://www.healthline.com/health/symptoms-of-kidney-
stones#...](https://www.healthline.com/health/symptoms-of-kidney-stones#back-
belly-or-side-pain)

------
CloudBuddy
I do a handful of Pilate Roll Ups when I first wake up in the morning and
again before I go to bed. I do these everyday (takes about 5-10 minutes per
day). I've been pain free for 8+ years. Here's a pic -
[http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/pilates/h_pilates2.htm](http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/pilates/h_pilates2.htm)

------
dmeffert
I've gone through the same with upper back pain that sometimes radiated to my
arms. No therapy seemed to help and after 2 years it was hard to see how it
could ever get better. Eventually I got into a multidisciplinary pain
rehabilitation program and I made a full recovery in a couple of months. It
turned out I was constantly tensing my upper back muscles and arms without
noticing it. Never underestimate how much muscles can hurt if they don't get
the opportunity to relax! After I relearned the habit of keeping those muscles
loose the pain slowly subsided. I had to gradually build up work activity
again though. In the beginning the pain would return when I would increase my
activities. When you have pain for a long time there is also sensitisation of
your nervous system so you have to take it slow.

I don't know if muscle tension is the cause in your case, but it could be a
factor. Either way, if you have the option to enter a multidisciplinary pain
management program I would highly recommend it.

------
trouble
Have you checked with your dentist to see whether your jaw joints (where your
jaw meets your skull under your ear lobe) are equally strong?

My dentist found that one side wasn't working as well as the other and made me
a custom splint (a mouthguard I wear at night) which trains the weaker side to
work properly. It looks like the one on the right in this picture [0]. Since
then, all of the pains on that side of my neck and upper back have
disappeared.

The way you've described your pain seems similar to what I was experiencing,
so maybe this information gives you something to go on.

One caveat though: my dentist said that the mouthguard approach doesn't work
for everyone (about 30% of people get a result similar to mine) as it relies
on fooling your brain in your sleep to train one jaw muscle to be stronger
than the other.

[0] [https://healthyheroics.com/wp-
content/uploads/2018/01/orthod...](https://healthyheroics.com/wp-
content/uploads/2018/01/orthodontic.jpg)

------
Data_Junkie
Nerve compression. It's horrible, and can go from non-existent to disabling
fairly quickly from inflammation. I spent most of last year getting 7 root
nerves fixed. The trick is radio frequency ablation, which is once you
identify the nerve causing the pain you use radio waves to cause a lesion on
the nerve. This blocks the nerve from working. I didn't know this before,
turns out we have a lot of nerves that don't really do anything but cause
pain. Pain specialist have it down to a science, I highly recommend. It can be
an adventure identifying the correct nerve though. I found it well worth the
inconveniences. There is also steroids that can be used for excessive
inflammation too, but they tend to not like to use them unless they have too.

------
jmpman
I’ve found great relief from my chiropractor. My chiropractor will first use
an electrical stimulator to relax the muscles, adjust the spine to restore
movement, and... nothing else. Repeat a couple times a week until the issue is
resolved, and.... nothing. Return if the problem returns.

Other chiropractors are trying to lock you in to a treatment plan, x-rays,
etc. whatever they can do to bill your insurance for more and more.

Yet another type of chiropractor will sell you crystals etc.

There are major problems with chiropractors. Find a good one.

It’s changed my life, but I expect you’ll find many who have employed the
other two types and aren’t as complementary.

Good luck.

Did you doctor at least prescribe some prednisone and cyclobenzaprene? That
seems to be the standard treatment when I take three hours to crawl to the
bathroom and finally make it to urgent care.

~~~
yellow_lead
> Other chiropractors are trying to lock you in to a treatment plan, x-rays,
> etc. whatever they can do to bill your insurance for more and more.

This happened to me and I wasted a lot of money. I found my lower back pain
was related to improper weightlifting form, but want to point out how right
you are to mention that chiropractors do this sort of thing and I wish I
researched it beforehand. They take x-rays and then proceed to find
"imbalances" which they proceed to "treat" with these long treatment plans
that don't usually work. Chiropractors are not doctors and anyone can find
something that looks wrong with a shoddy xray. They also made me watch some
weird video on subluxations that seemed to subtly suggest other diseases could
be treated with chiropractics. And they also had me purchase bromelain and
some other supplement that did nothing for me. The crime with all of this IMO
is that it gives the impression that a chiropractor is like a doctor, but it
couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm sure you can find a good chiropractor as you're suggesting, but just want
to tack on to your emphasis that you have to do some searching.

~~~
m0dese7en
Some chiropractors are not very good. Some doctors are also, not very good.

------
juancn
You haven't mentioned exercise. What's your training routine? How many hours a
day are you sitting down?

Most back pains get better by making your back muscles stronger, less prone to
cramping. Even for some types of injuries such as intervertebral disc damage,
having strong back muscles help compensate the position of the back that
causes the episodes.

You should at the very minimum be doing it three times a week with a good
trainer.

In my case, I have a muscle behind my left shoulder blade that tends to cramp
and it's super annoying. Also if I stop exercising for more than a couple of
weeks my lower back tends to start to complain about it.

------
Data_Junkie
Nerve compression. It's horrible, and can go from non-existent to disabling
fairly quickly from inflammation. I spent most of last year getting 7 root
nerves fixed. The trick is radio frequency ablation, which is once you
identify the nerve causing the pain you use radio waves to cause a lesson on
the nerve. This blocks the nerve from working. I didn't know this before,
turns out we have a lot of nerves that don't really do anything but cause
pain. Pain specialist have it down to a science, I highly recommend. Also,
tingling or numbness is a telltale sign of nerve compression.

------
stevenicr
I'd like to suggest visiting at least one 'certified rolfer' to have a look at
ya. They can be super heroes for the right conditions.

I have taken people around chiros, acupuncturists, and many other therapists.
A recent experience had a close friend find some relief with a particular
chiropractor - but we found the symptoms returned, and more treatments were
suggested, with a 'long term goal of complete relief in 9 months or so' \-
then we tried orthopedic people and surgeons, then found way to a doc that was
a chiropractor, but had several add on things, one being 'spinal decompression
therapy' \- the best thing about that guy / place is that he knew right away a
couple of issues by looking at ya, pointed out things others missed by looking
at an x-ray, and had a very specific 'we can fix 99% of this pain and problem
with these things we do here in X amount of weeks' -

I would also seek a well experienced acupuncturist.

Others have pointed out great things to explore like emotional and body
connected issues that are under-diagnosed in my experience as well.

For stubborn muscle like issues I have always been grateful of the additional
information that a great acupuncture person and rolfing therapy person can
provide.

I have found some doctors to be great, but mostly surgeons that like to cut
when you have good insurance and chiropractors that like to have you on a
weekly plan that lasts for months, they often have me looking for other
opinions for true relief.

For some the right massages combined with doing the right exercises is all
that's needed.

Be wary of any chiro people that say they know rolfing and more - sure they
might 'know it', but only people certified with the Ida Rolf institute really
know it and do it so well they can start fixing you session one after looking
at your posture, imho, ymmv.

If you are in or visiting Nashville I can suggest some specific people to see
that I have found to trust.

I am not a doctor / lawyer, not medical advice, verify with doctors, have not
seen you, yada yada. Hoping you find lasting relief though!

------
PopeDotNinja
I don't know if this is the answer, but you could always try something like
yoga. Maybe you just need to get off the couch and build some strength. Most
chronic pain I've had over the the years went away with being more active.
YMMV and I am not a doctor.

------
www_div_digital
I went through something similar for many years. I went to physical therapy, I
stopped running, I bought a StandDesk, my wife bought us a new bed, I almost
stopped drinking wine. It lasted for years. None of those things worked.

Unbelievably what worked is what 3 people have already mentioned in the
comments here already...

I started taking a vitamin daily.

Hard to believe, but I've been fine for a year.

This is the vitamin (I am not affiliated with this company):

Nature's Way Alive! Premium Max3 Daily Multi-Vitamin
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009F3RO2](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009F3RO2)

------
tacomplain
possibly migraines? it started when i was around 23 and I had the same symptom
(unreasonable back/neck pain). I just started to have headaches after visiting
a neurologist and getting medication (pamelor), in the first month of
medicine, the back pain stopped. after some months of headaches (and
medication) most of it stopped. try to see if the pain correlates with coffee,
sleep and fat food. everyone has certain triggers and they may take a while to
appear. if I'd drink too much coffee, I'd have migraines in the next day.
eating fat food on friday would just appear as pain on sunday or monday...

------
michelinman
Does it hurt when your in bed? Before starting any exercise like so many are
recommending, it might be a good idea to get an ultra-sound on your shoulders
- sounds a bit like a torn rotator cuff from experience.

------
lubujackson
I've dealt with bouts of severe back pain from sitting at a desk for far too
long through my 20s (and probably initially caused from a dumb injury lifting
weights). I suffered with "throwing my back out" for maybe 10 years. It got to
the point where I sneezed one time and threw out my back so badly I was
bedridden for a full week.

But now I'm 42 and pain-free. Pilates (with a GOOD instructor) was what
initially helped me. I started when I was still hurting badly and a good
instructor can help you strengthen muscles and loosen what needs stretching
without damaging you further. Mine was an active dancer and knew a ton about
anatomy and injury recovery. I believe Pilates was originally created to help
dancers recover from injury so it is a good place to start. Without knowing
your underlying issue, most back pain people have comes from sitting too much,
which means you can probably solve the issue completely through exercise and
stretching.

Some small details that might help right away: a big key for me was learning
how to "activate my core" which is something like sucking in your stomach but
more conceptually like trying to draw your stomach back toward your spine. I
believe it is a key element of many martial arts too, and by learning to
tighten those broad, internal muscles you take stress off of the fiddly little
muscles that are all knotted up and causing you pain. The more I was able to
be aware of those muscles and activate them when my back was tight/tense, the
easier I could loosen the knot, so to speak.

From your description of your pain, there is one key stretch that should
address it directly. You might have heard this before from a doctor or P.T.,
but I highly recommend you do it routinely. Find a doorway and hold your arm
up like for a high five. Put your raised arm against the wall with your
shoulder at the doorway gently push your body through the doorway so you arm
is stretched back at the shoulder. This should be a great stretch for your
upper pecs and will probably feel quite tender. What is happening is that by
sitting at a desk you are hunching forward which is stretching your back
muscles and compressing your pecs. Exercising your stretched out and painful
back won't do much, what you need to do is stretch your compressed pecs so
they can take the load off your overtaxed back muscles.

------
penguinlinux
Sorry you are feeling this pain. I came across this youtube channel of a
chiropractor in Texas.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dLOl66n2g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dLOl66n2g).
Guy is amazing and has helped a lot of people who were in so much pain even
while walking into his office these people were suffering and almost immobile
and after a visit they felt much better. Watch some of his videos.

------
m0dese7en
Taekwondo helped my back pain. Your muscles get tense and tight and pull your
bones this way and that. When this happens and nerves start getting moved or
pinched then funny things happen, like pain and tingling.

There was a point I could not lay down without the pain. Gaining back full
range of motion and strengthening muscles to do their job, support your body,
can make a big difference.

Best of luck to you, I hope you find something that helps.

------
honopu
I can’t use a laptop on my lap or a table for an extended period of time. I
had similar terrible neck pain, which went away after switching to a few
monitors on a stand that brought their centers of the screen to eye level. I
never really use my laptop as a laptop aside from airplanes a few times a
year, the pain for me totally went away. It was very depressing until through
trial and error I resolved it.

------
aynsof
The thing that really helped for me was Alexander Technique. You have to find
a good teacher - there are a lot of cranks, unfortunately - but the good ones
are amazing.

My teacher helped me to work on my underlying habits around movement and
posture. Once I had worked through that, I was pain-free enough to be able to
start doing weight lifting. The lifting helped a lot, but it was only possible
because of the Alexander.

------
orasis
Doing bear crawls and other animal movements from the gmb.io programs has been
a huge help for me.

Their Elements program covers a bunch of movements that gets your whole
shoulders, spine, and hips mobile.

I also use a standing desk 100% of the time I’m coding and walk about a mile
per day.

Lastly, inflammation from poor diet and alcohol can be a big problem. You can
reset your inflammation to very low levels with something like Whole 30.

------
ericmcer
There is a lot of varied and good advice in this thread, from trigger points
to yoga to lifting weights. Self care and healing injury is complex and not a
switch you can just flip, but it’s super important to start doing something. I
believe even the positivity that gathers when you switch mentalities from “I’m
in pain and can’t stop it” to “I’m in pain and doing X to fix it” is huge.

------
waste_monk
I hear absorbine / horse liniment (the vetinary grade stuff, NOT the weaker
"safe for human use" one) cautiosly applied works wonders for muscle soreness.
It's like deep heat / tiger balm, but a few hundred times stronger.

Of course this still needs to be combined with physiotherapy to resolve longer
term, but the liniment can provide significant relief while you work on it.

------
pmiller2
All I have to add here is that the tingling and burning implies you have nerve
involvement in some form. Have any of the doctors done a nerve conduction
test?

I also see some merit in some of the other suggestions here: referred pain is
a strong possibility given that the pain moves around, chiropractic or
physical therapy may help, as might trigger point massage.

------
caseyscottmckay
Do you work out? I know that seems like a dumb question given your current
constant pain, but if you can fight through the pain, working out will make
your body strong. Go hard for 45 minutes every single day and you will see
improvements. Working out may be the most important thing you can do each day
for both body and mind.

------
BrandoElFollito
I had horrible pain in the muscles of the neck. Went to several doctors, had
kinetheraphy and nothing changed.

I then correlated it to a lack of sleep and now see it as a pattern.

In order to avoid confirmation bias, I tested my theory over a few years in
various mental states (work, vacation, happy, sad, sporty, couch potato,...).
The link was and is always there.

------
etrautmann
Consider reading the Mindbody Solution. It’s a seemingly absurd book which I
found to be a helpful perspective on addressing unexplained pain.

Also read Becoming a Supple Leopard. Also seems ridiculous but offers
important perspective on referred pain and resolving issues all over the body
through self massage, PT, and exercise.

------
throwawae111
This may not help your case - but posting in case it helps someone. I recently
had an epiphany moment with a physio who explained that weak rotator cuffs and
traps were responsible for my referred pain and constant neck injuries. One
month of turnouts and shrugs has resolved four years of broken sleep.

------
uptownfunk
What's your diet and lifestyle like?

Weightlifting has helped a ton in combination with proper yoga practice
(focusing on form, a la Iyengar) and watching my diet. Anti-inflammatory diets
can also help a lot too, game changers on Netflix is a good intro to that.

Hope you find the help you need!

------
KineticTroi
I seem to have cured a problem like that in my 20's. With a back inversion
machine and twice weekly about 10 minutes only. After half a year, it never
come back. Had the problem intermittently for about 3-4 years before. Very
painful, stabbing pains in those areas.

------
yanko
You could check this one
[http://atlascentar.mk/en/pocetna.html](http://atlascentar.mk/en/pocetna.html)

Also you could ask there for local for you specialist certificated in Swiss
center for the methodology

------
plurple
Are you right or left handed? Hopefully they thoroughly checked your
gallbladder. If they have, then exercise is usually the best treatment, but
you’ll probably want to go to a trainer one time to see if they can figure out
what shoulder exercises would be best.

------
cixter
I found that climbing/bouldering regularly (a couple of hours once a week)
helps tremendously with classical office-related pains, such as in the back
and underarms/wrists. I've never had any serious issues with this though.

------
latitude
If you haven’t seen it, give a quick skim to “The Mindbody Prescription” by
Sarno.

Several years ago I had a very strong on-and-off hip joint pain for several
months. This thing helped overnight, with permanent effect.

------
droithomme
I have permanent issues. It's never going to be cured and surgery would be a
mistake.

Helpful was exercises and consultation with a competent physical therapist.
Yes I tried everything else. This doesn't cure it but makes life more livable.

~~~
azhu
You can cure these issues. Unless you suffered some sort of acute injury, have
some sort of highly extenuating genetic circumstance, or your biology has
expired, humans do not decay to a point beyond where they can grow back. I am
certain that your circumstances are uniquely difficult, and that you are doing
the work necessary to deal with them. Good luck.

------
mnm1
Have you tried massage either professional or self massage with a lacrosse
ball? It could be trigger points in your back. That's what I have. Search for
info on self massage with a lacrosse ball.

------
dd36
Anecdata: my back spasms stopped after I started a daily multi-vitamin.

------
whycombagator
IANAD but sounds like it could be disc related.

> I've been to doctor after doctor after doctor and I have absolute no more
> info then when I started.

If you haven't already, see an orthopedic surgeon (preferably one who
specializes in spines - but any ortho is fine) and get an x-ray + MRI w/o
contrast. Sometimes you have to request/demand the MRI - MRI's can be
expensive depending on where you live/insurance.

The ortho can then either tell you what's wrong based on the imaging, or have
ruled out a bunch of stuff and might refer you to another specialist for other
tests.

And lastly, for the love of all that is holy: AVOID CHIROS!

At the very least until you have figured out what is going on/what the cause
of the pain is.

Good luck!

------
DoreenMichele
The hydration/burning:

It could be you are too acid. These comments fit with that:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21383772](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21383772)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21386569](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21386569)

Start a journal. Track diet, symptoms and whatever life events you feel
inspired to write about. Try to find patterns.

Other random thoughts:

Walking more (or other exercise) can help your body "take out the trash." This
is generally helpful for health issues.

If it's nerve related, a B vitamin supplement may help.

If you continue to be desperate, consider reducing your possessions,
especially upholstered furniture, books, curtains, carpeting and particle
board furniture. Expect to feel temporarily worse before you begin to feel
better.

If your diet includes a lot of diet foods that are supposedly good for your
weight, quit eating that garbage. Eliminate sugar substitutes, butter
substitutes, etc. Eat more real food and fewer "food products" full of
chemicals. If you want potato chips, buy a bad whose ingredient list is
_potatoes, salt, vegetable oil_ and skip the Pringles that have a paragraph of
long chemical names. This principle generalizes.

Eat actual food, not chemical compounds disguised to pretend it's food.

Start reading up on various nutrients and what happens to the body when you
are deficient. Just read.

Start with Wikipedia and try to stick to .gov and .edu sites. A lot of stuff
in the "wellness" space has a very poor reputation. Unfortunately, this is
exactly the space you need to read about, so people with actual good advice
are hard to tell apart from kooks selling snake oil.

You will need some general background knowledge to sort the wheat from the
chaff. You will want that to come from sources that are fairly trustworthy
(though do actually be a real cynic and realize nothing is 100% reliable and
official sources often parrot what's within the Overton Window rather than
stating the objective findings that fall outside that window).

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window)

As a general rule of thumb, skip advice from anyone on the planet who thinks
colloidal silver is a good idea. It's a form of poison. It builds up in the
system and we don't know how to effectively get it out again.

------
fjabre
Repetitive peripheral magnetic stimulation can help dramatically. Otherwise
know as rPMS in the literature.

Most people know it as TMS though (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation) or rTMS.

------
P_I_Staker
Does HN have any rules on shilling? I know it's a tough thing to enforce, or
detect. There seems to be a fair amount of it in this thread, although I'm not
sure if it's "real" shills, or if they actually love the product. Regardless,
I think people need to be more careful saying this one book/pill was the only
thing that helped. A miracle! I feel like I'm reading one of those sketchy
banner ads.

------
mathgenius
Stop relying on Doctors. They are good at fixing acute problems, but for
chronic stuff not so much.

------
hekocelsius
I was assuming it's pneumonia but I've never seen any pneumonia that have
lasted this long.

------
itroot
Look, I had simular problems. What helped is : exercises, cold shower, good
chair.

------
tmaly
have you looked into trigger point therapy. I remember stumbling upon it 20
years ago. I was getting arm issues from knots in my neck. This solved the
problem.

------
orasis
For immediate relief a TEMS unit can help. It won’t fix it though.

------
HNLurker2
Same with lower back

------
azhu
I'm sorry you're going through this. The difficulty of severe, chronic, and
mysterious pain is a very all-encompassing one. Find a _good_ physical
therapist. It absolutely does get better.

The body is a complex biological structure, and while it does have distinct
parts, it is the holistic interaction of all of your skeletal, muscular,
nervous, neurological, etc systems alongside the exterior physical demands you
place on your body that produces your overall experience of it and physical
therapists are the ones best trained to contextualize injuries and bodily
disorders in this global manner.

As with diagnosis of a software system, it is difficult to find any objective
definition of "this is what is causing the pain". Where the rubber is meeting
the road is almost certainly nerves being pinched and tissue being overloaded.
Much like patching a software bug at the surface level does not mitigate
others like it arising, fixing these issues locally through massage, dry
needling, nerve blocks, drugs, etc may not address the root of why they've
arisen. Much like removing blocks from the bottom of a jenga tower affects how
blocks at the top must be stacked to keep it upright, so too does a given
local function affect function in other locales within the body as well as
overall global function. Tightness can be caused by structural weakness
elsewhere, and structural weakness can also be caused by tightness.

Much like software opinions, all of the treatment techniques people are
describing in this thread are valid for certain use cases. Much like software
opinions, choosing one without understanding what makes it applicable to a
situation can have disastrous results. You need a good PT to help you know
what makes any given technique a good idea and to point you in the right
directions and to the right specialists.

Everyone's goals with treatment will be different as well. Perhaps you're only
interested in not experiencing pain, and perhaps you're interested in being
able to dunk a 20 foot rim and swimming the Atlantic ocean. In any case, the
road to lasting health will be arduous. As a young person, please do anything
you can to stave off surgery or anything that alters the structure of your
body with any lever other than its own growth. The body does not decay nor
produce random pains when properly cared for. Once you begin down the path of
surgery you truly cannot turn back and outcomes are not good.

A good physical therapist is one that has the educational background to help
you learn about your body, decide what paths are best to take, and engineer a
strategy for you to take yourself down those paths. It's also vital that they
are able to help you manage your attitude through it as well because they
can't get you to health, they can only guide your will to get yourself to
health. Unfortunately these types tend not to be the ones that accept
insurance, but that produces a much better incentivizing feedback loop for
them to deeply invest in getting you to health. These are the ones who have
opted out of the standard accept-insurance-and-do-crazy-volume in favor of
more personalized and rewarding work.

Good luck. It gets better. At 27 years old I herniated a few discs out of my
back causing debilitating nerve pain that resulted in ~6 months of me needing
help to get dressed and go to the bathroom all while furiously spinning wheels
searching for a solution. Two years later and I'm much more informed about my
body, well over the hump, and stronger than ever. No matter what your goals
are with your body, you can and will get there.

------
www_div_digital
I will

