
Ang Lee and the uncertainty of success - iamwil
http://jeffjlin.com/2013/02/23/ang-lee-and-the-uncertainty-of-success/
======
thejerz
I knew Taylor Swift growing up.

Like Ang Lee, for around 6 to 8 years Taylor acted in musicals, sang at
festivals, entered competitions, and recorded demos. She was bad at first
(sorry Taylor!), but she kept working at it. Every day, she was writing
another lyric, or taking another guitar lesson, or auditioning for another
play, or switching voice teachers. The reason I knew her was that I went to
school with her (she was maybe in third grade when I was in 7th), I acted in
plays with her, and I ran sound and make background tracks for her when she
was 10 or so. I knew her mom and dad and brother too. I got to see her
bildungsroman firsthand.

Then came her "overnight" success. And the press talked about her like she
appeared on planet earth overnight. She was a sensation. All at once, you
couldn't walk outside your front door without hearing about Taylor Swift. It
was surreal, having know the awkward girl from a few years earlier.

But what no one talked about was the years she forewent hanging out with other
girls in middle school, watching TV and doing her hair with girlfriends in
high school... all of the stuff that normal kids do. Playing sports, going on
dates with boys... all of this was sacrificed. For Taylor, and Ang Lee, great
sacrifice was made.

Success requires an obsession of sorts. You have to say, "I am going to
accomplish this, come hell or high water." Failure is not an option... it's
not even a word in the dictionary. There is only success. The buck has to stop
with you; there's no room for blaming other people, making excuses, or
avoiding harsh realities. Whatever it takes to be successful, whether that's
hiring a speech coach, taking more classes at the university, learning
etiquette, doing odd projects, finding a tutor, seeing a therapist, waking up
at 6am to exercise... there is no limit. And that's just the point -- there is
NO limit on what you have to be willing to undertake to achieve the goal.

I've grappled with what I'm going to say for years, but I now acknowledge it
as a truism: If you stick with it, you'll be successful. It doesn't matter
where you come from, who your parents are, what you know, who you know, or how
you look. All that is required is a choice -- a commitment to excellence.

Therefore, there's only one rule in making it to the top: don't quit.

~~~
wwweston
> If you stick with it, you'll be successful. It doesn't matter where you come
> from, who your parents are, what you know, who you know, or how you look.
> All that is required is a choice

I'm going to present a different picture of the world. I think it's a more
accurate one. Not necessarily more useful.

There is no such thing as a guarantee of success -- at least, for a definition
of success that includes broad recognition and financial rewards. No choice
you can make, no enduring commitment, no talent you develop or have inborn can
guarantee that "whatever it takes" will actually be enough in the end.

Determination, focus, talent, and years of effort _may_ make you a success.
They will markedly improve your chances, possibly even make them quite good.
And shedding them or neglecting to cultivate them will all but guarantee
failure.

But they're still no guarantee. And that's why the central message of the
article about the intrinsic rewards is so important. Because in the end, the
only reward you can keep for sure is the one that you take for yourself in
terms of being satisfied with how you spend your time and the work that you've
done.

~~~
jerryhuang100
> There is no such thing as a guarantee of success.

It's true there is no guarantee of success. But if you quit early there would
be only guarantee failure.

~~~
chaz
> But if you quit early

The problem is we never know when "early" is. It could be past our patience,
financial means, career window, or lifetime.

~~~
ankitml
I would say sometimes qutting is good option. Not absolute quitting, but
quitting from current plan. Being open to bending and open to modifications in
the 'way to success'.

I remember Bruce Lee said, "Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like
water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a
bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend."

------
MikeCapone
Very inspiring, though this makes me think that we also have to worry about
survivorship bias. How many people stuck to their guns, focused, worked really
hard for years, and nothing ever happened for them (at least nothing close to
their dreams)? Probably many, though I'm sure it's still the best way to
maximize your chances of getting there; by giving up, you are assured of not
making it; but even doing your best brings no certainty.

That's why you have to love the journey, not just the destination.

~~~
sskates
How many people have worked on their own startup in the valley for 5+ years
and had nothing come of it? Before I made the leap to working on a startup
full time, I searched for a while for an example where 5 or more years
resulted in complete failure but I couldn't find one. Not a single data point
among hundreds that I read about/heard about anecdotally. I'm very curious,
anyone care to share an example where they worked on their startup for 5+
years and it resulted in failure?

~~~
bane
I can give you two I know about personally. An ISP that couldn't afford the
transition to a post dial-up world, sold its user base off for a pittance. Not
really worth the six years.

The other was a fairly niche data processing startup in a several billion
dollar niche. 10 years in and they missed the boat migrating their front end
to the browser and moving their back end off of windows.

Couldn't even sell off the source code in the end.

~~~
sskates
The companies failed, but did the founders end up worse off than if they had
been random engineers at Microsoft?

~~~
bane
I guess define "worse off". But I would say in both cases they ended up about
the same...but I will grant they learned lots of intangibles from the
experiences.

~~~
pfedor
How did the end up about the same? Were they paying themselves the same
salaries they would have been getting at Microsoft the whole time? Were they
living more frugally than they would have been had they been working at
Microsoft?

~~~
bane
I think in terms of the kind of job position they could get going into a
Microsoft after their startup, they ended up about the same as if they had
been at Microsoft the whole time.

So it wasn't wasted time in that respect, and they'll be bringing in unique
and different skills that they probably wouldn't have developed had they been
at MS the whole time.

But...there's things like the lower pay they probably had while doing their
business, and the intensity of running a failing business is very very hard
mentally and physically.

Near the end, one of the guys shut down...hard...now that he's moved on he's
recovering. But I think that kind of experience trails along with you for a
long while.

------
waterlesscloud
Screenwriter Terry Rossio (Aladdin, Shrek, Pirates Of The Caribbean series)
has a long running website on screenwriting. His site reminds me a lot of PG,
actually, since he has a lot of essays thinking about the concepts behind the
movie business.

He's talked there before about the time he spent preparing to become a
screenwriter. His initial plan was to take 10 years to learn the craft.

[http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/forulttrs/lt18.That.Big.Bre...](http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/forulttrs/lt18.That.Big.Break.html)

"Since Ted and I were going to be working and studying screenwriting for ten
years, that took some of the pressure off. It doesn't make sense to kick
yourself after failing at something for four years, when the path you're on is
designed to take ten. This allowed a period of time to undertake an analysis
and exploration of the business, the techniques, the craft, the history, etc.
Step by step, from style to format to character to concept to theme, etc. In
other words, we gave ourselves room to practice."

He's also got a fantastic column on why you should give up at screenwriting.

I think a lot of people here can apply it to startups.

[http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp34.Throw.in.the.Towel.ht...](http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp34.Throw.in.the.Towel.html)

"That's what I'm really trying to do here (and you're smart enough to see it).
And I'm not quitting. Oh, no, I'm not even warmed up. This is important, and
I'm gonna give it my best shot.

Because what's at stake here is pretty damn big... oh, just, let's say, your
life. A wasted life, potentially, or at least wasting the best years of your
life. Days, months, years of effort endlessly trying to do something that
you'll never be able to do well. And how many sunsets will you miss before you
finally give up? How many walks in the moonlight are forever gone? How much
laughter with friends are you willing to sacrifice? How many times will the
kids not get the attention they deserve because 'Daddy's trying to write
something' that nobody wants to read?

Oh. Gee. Did that one get to you a little? Feel a little twinge in the pit of
your stomach?

Good."

~~~
elfydanman
Thanks for the Terry Rossio links. Good stuff - just ate two hours of my time.

------
enraged_camel
I read the story. It is very touching. That said, I think stories like this
send a very dangerous message. The reality of the matter is that for every
person who stuck to their passion and ultimately "succeeded," there are
thousands who lived the rest of their lives in obscurity and never "made it."

When I was reading the story and Ang Le said he started taking computer
science classes at the local college, I though, "that's great - he finally
came to grips with reality ad went from being a daydreamer to being a harsh
pragmatist." I was therefore dismayed when he then said he tore up his class
schedule and went back to his passion.

A lot of people glamorize his choice with things like "his dedication and
commitment paid off" but what if t had not? Would we hear about Ang Le today?

In hindsight his choice was the right one. But hindsight is 20/20. If you
really want to maximize your chances of success in life, be flexible and ready
to change course often.

~~~
hyperberry
> _The reality of the matter is that for every person who stuck to their
> passion and ultimately "succeeded," there are thousands who lived the rest
> of their lives in obscurity and never "made it."_

How do you quantify this? What is your data? I think it's easy to claim there
are "thousands" who faded into obscurity, but is it truly the case?

And for that innumerable set of folks that never made it . . . did they
_really_ stick to their passion?

I'm inclined to agree with the top-rated comment on this one:

> _If you stick with it, you'll be successful. It doesn't matter where you
> come from, who your parents are, what you know, who you know, or how you
> look. All that is required is a choice -- a commitment to excellence._

I've had my 7 years of fat followed by 7 years of lean. There is a very real
correlation between attitude/commitment/hard work and success.

~~~
enraged_camel
>>How do you quantify this? What is your data? I think it's easy to claim
there are "thousands" who faded into obscurity, but is it truly the case?

I think all those art majors who graduated from college and still work as
baristas at Starbucks is sufficient evidence for my claim.

>>I've had my 7 years of fat followed by 7 years of lean. There is a very real
correlation between attitude/commitment/hard work and success.

I'm a fitness buff too, and I have to say your analogy doesn't really hold.
Success in fitness is very much about dedication, because your result is a
direct result of the amount of work you put in. Whereas success in career is
affected by a ton of other factors that are outside one's control. Primarily,
luck. When there's 200 spots open for a job that 50,000 people are applying
to, it doesn't matter how hard each of those 50,000 people work to get it.
Only 200 of them will.

------
mooreds
What I think is fascinating is not Ang Lee's determination to last those 6
years, thought that is impressive.

It is that his wife and family supported him for all those years (granted, it
seems he was providing childcare). And believed in him, to the point of
scolding him when he considered switching to a more immediately lucrative
career.

We should all be so generous to our partners.

~~~
svdad
Yeah, that's awesome. What's so unusual about it to me is that when he was
discouraged she didn't tell him to do something easier that would make him
feel more immediately satisfied (by making money, providing for the family,
etc.); she told him to keep doing what was making him unhappy in the short
term. I think that takes a damn strong relationship.

------
mladenkovacevic
It takes an inhuman amount of confidence or blind faith to convince yourself
that you are good enough to make it in the film industry. To hold that belief
for 6 years, while seemingly spinning your tires and growing your family is
just something else. Ang Lee is something else too, though. After seeing Eat
Drink Man Woman one evening, he instantly became one of my favorite directors.

As a former film school graduate myself, I must admit I took the other route
and settled for a safe, but rather mindless career in marketing. At 31 I think
I still have some fight in me, but alas not everyone is Ang Lee.

~~~
colmvp
I really respect Asian men who try and make it in Hollywood because its an
upill battle.

~~~
joonix
What's really impressive is that he wasn't relegated to Asian or Asian-
influenced films. He broke out with Sense and Sensibility, of all things.

------
jblock
It's an interesting perspective on the man in light of all the ruckus about
his film and the bankruptcy of Rhythm & Hues (who did the Oscar-winning
effects for the film and ultimately fired 250 people in the past month):

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2013/feb/26/ang-lee-visual-
ef...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2013/feb/26/ang-lee-visual-effects-life-
of-pi)

He's got talent, that's for sure. I suspect much of the flak should be thrown
at the industry rather than at the filmmakers.

------
melling
Here's the author trying to explain how long Ang Lee spent working towards
success:

"Imagine starting something now, this year, that you felt you were pretty good
at, having won some student awards, devoting yourself to it full time…and then
getting rejected over and over until 2019."

This reminds me of the "Story of Longitude" where John Harrison spent decades
of his life in search of his prize (the first "X-Prize"?), and everyone is
betting against him. How could a self-educated clockmaker beat the best minds
of the day? Anyway it's a great story, which I've read a couple of times.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitude_(book)>

A few years ago when I was thinking up a name for my mobile "hobby start-up
company", I took inspiration from Harrison and called my company h4labs
(<http://h4labs.com>). His fourth clock (H4) won the prize. As a software
developer, I image myself more as a craftsmen. I'm taking one idea and I'm
going to refine it over several years. Hopefully, by my major forth version,
I'll have something really worthwhile.

[Edit] Btw, here's the book: [http://www.amazon.com/Longitude-Genius-Greatest-
Scientific-P...](http://www.amazon.com/Longitude-Genius-Greatest-Scientific-
Problem/dp/080271529X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1362023756&sr=1-1&keywords=longitude>book)

~~~
kamaal
Thanks for narrating the story of John Harrison. I would say that what he
found was the GPS equivalent of his time.

------
balsam
here is a very personal essay the oscar winning director Ang Lee wrote about
those 6 years in the desert (translated):

[http://whatshihsaid.com/2013/02/26/ang-lee-a-never-ending-
dr...](http://whatshihsaid.com/2013/02/26/ang-lee-a-never-ending-dream/)

~~~
webwanderings
Awesome, thanks. These two articles are just amazing.

------
antoniuschan99
iamwill, this is a really awesome post. I shared it on FB and Tweeted it. I
wanted to add one thing:

My sister won the Miss Hong Kong Pageant a few years back and is one of the
top celebrities in Asia. One thing I learned from her was that success is all
about determination, focus, and a lot of work; talent is in fact overrated.

For her, there have been ups (winning the pageant she was at the top), and
downs (a year after winning the pageant, she was given the standard actress
contract and was basically at the bottom), then ups again (she had to work her
way up to the 'acting' totem pole).

Success in my view is what you make of it as well. Dave Chappelle talked about
it when his dad confronted him about wanting to be an entertainer. His
response was if he could make a living comparable to a normal white collar job
(I think he used the example of 50K a year), then he felt in his mind that he
achieved success. It's probably why he went to Africa! (Unless you believe in
the Oprah Conspiracy lol).

DHH and the guys at 37signals have it right in my mind too. There is a huge
difference being -10K in debt and having 10K in savings. Another huge
difference between 10K in savings and having 250K in savings. However, there
really isn't much difference between 1 Million and 10 Million and above (First
Class vs. private jet... one Mazeratti vs. 5 Mazeratti's). For the majority of
us, success is hitting that 250K mark. At that point, you don't need to worry
about rent, food, bills... etc.

Lastly, a piece of advice I learned from Derek Sivers was what do you want? He
broke it down to Fame, Fortune, Freedom, excitement, quiet, comfort.. To some
all they want is Fame. To others, all they want is the money. His advice was
to choose only one and go for it. A nice little byproduct is that you might
get the Fortune and end up getting the Freedom as well. But know what you want
and set yourself to achieve that goal!

------
danso
> _It got so discouraging that Lee reportedly contemplated learning computer
> science so he could find a job during this time, but was scolded by his wife
> when she found out, telling him to keep his focus._

Tragic...we came so close to having Ang Lee be a programmer!

I guess it's a small consolation that he's one of my favorite directors ever.

------
senthil_rajasek
I cannot believe I wasted time reading this article.

The picture of the tape and the business card sucked me in.

I was hoping that the author will be sharing in detail the travails of Ang Lee
during his early years and how he managed to pull through. Instead the author
spins his own story of how Ang Lee stayed the course.

The reality of how Ang Lee felt ( 1984 - 1990 ) and kept himself motivated or
if he was even worried about "success" remains a mystery and I am still
curious to know more about this wonderful director and his early years...

------
orangethirty
Success, like failure, is an event. Not the destination itself. My work
discipline is the same when I succeed as when I fail. I don't suddenly become
smarter or dumber. Success after all is what happens when you have a well-
oiled system working for you.

------
jheriko
Wait a minute, isn't 6 years of work to become an amazing success very quick
and impressive? It takes most people a lot longer than 6 years to achieve a
lot less...

What I struggle to imagine is the distorted sense of self and entitlement
required to have the opposite perspective, which seems to be the author's view
- that 6 years is too long to work hard at something and become good at it???

------
rdouble
One thing I've always wondered is what film and TV writers do all day during
their years of obscurity. It would be interesting to hear more details about
their process during that time, but that part of the story is never told.

~~~
waterlesscloud
Most of them work some sort of crappy day job. I know one guy that the day he
finalized a script sale for millions of dollars was working as a temp and
borrowing money.

The ones that succeed go home after that crappy job and spend hours writing.
The ones that don't, don't.

~~~
redschell
I'm pretty sure pg has an essay about this using writing as an example. It
goes something like "If you want to be a writer, you need to find time to
write." Or something like that. I know for startup founders, and most other
creative professionals, it's the same story: Find a way to work on the
projects that matter to you. Maybe that means you get passed up for promotion
at your current job, but you're not at your current job to climb the ladder
anyway.

Edit: Found it. <http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html>

------
ashutoshm
If you want an average successful life, it doesn’t take much planning. Just
stay out of trouble, go to school, and apply for jobs you might like. But if
you want something extraordinary, you have two paths:

1\. Become the best at one specific thing. 2\. Become very good (top 25%) at
two or more things. -Scott Adams
[http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/07/care...](http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/07/career-
advice.html)

------
dm8
“I sent in script after script. Most were turned down. Then there would be
interest, I’d rewrite, hurry up, turn it in and wait weeks and weeks, just
waiting. That was the toughest time for Jane and me. She didn’t know what a
film career was like and neither did I.”

Blimey me, that's some solid hustle. That too when you have young kid.
Seriously inspiring. Time and again it has shown that determination can change
fortunes.

EDIT: I got # of kids wrong

~~~
waterlesscloud
It's been said Hollywood is the only town where you can die of encouragement.

I've known a number of people (including myself) who have had film projects
with interest from some of the biggest names in town. But what counts isn't
interest, or someone thinking it's great, but someone signing some checks. And
that can be incredibly elusive.

Even then, the results aren't always satisfying. There are some screenwriters
who have sold scripts for some of the largest amount on record who refuse to
watch the movies that eventually resulted.

I've read the average time from start to a produced film for a screenwriter is
7 years. And during those 7 years, you don't know if you're going to be a
success or if you're just delusional.

Having been around the edges of the business for a good while now, I believe
people who say the existence of each and every film is a miracle.

It's a crazy business.

~~~
dm8
Thanks, that was really helpful. How different is it from a startup then?
There are edge-cases like YouTubes and Instagrams of the world. But in general
it is 3-5 years at minimum where you know whether your startup is going to be
successful or not.

~~~
waterlesscloud
Probably not all that different as a trial of self-belief, though the money
for screenwriting is a lot lower until you finally "break in".

You _might_ make some money along the way if you option a script, but probably
not more than a few thousand or so.

------
Keyframe
And yet, we have stuff like this: <http://www.facebook.com/VfxSolidarityIntl>

Specifically this: [http://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/an-open-letter-
to...](http://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/an-open-letter-to-ang-lee)

------
tomkit
I loved Ang Lee's own words: [http://whatshihsaid.com/2013/02/26/ang-lee-a-
never-ending-dr...](http://whatshihsaid.com/2013/02/26/ang-lee-a-never-ending-
dream/) (which is a link within this article).

------
robertlaing
I'm surprised he didn't mention his interview with the comedian Stewart Lee:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHC13MYcrR4>

------
fludlight
Is White Plains the Palo Alto of the Northeast? There seem to be a
disproportionate amount of intelligent people doing new and exciting things
from that town.

Edit: spelling

~~~
patmcguire
It's the seat of Westchester county, which has a million people in small
cities jammed next to each other. I think a lot of that gets rounded to White
Plains rather than explaining the geography. Also, it's rich, which doesn't
guarantee but definitely helps with success.

