
Making an emperor bed - MiddleEndian
http://middleendian.com/emperor
======
Freak_NL
> At this point, I decided the only thing that made sense was to build my own
> mattress from scratch.

Bless this mindset. The internet would be a lot less interesting without the
_makers_ and their write-ups.

~~~
rootedbox
I get what your saying; but this is also how we end up with hacky software at
companies..

The 'The I'm pretty sure I can make this better(or cheaper) myself... even if
there is an off the shelf version done by dedicated professionals.'

~~~
nextos
I disagree. If you hang around The Mattress Underground, where lots of
mattress aficionados and professional sellers post, you will quickly become
aware that most beds are pretty mediocre and overpriced. There's lots of in-
depth discussion on their internals, and it's pretty disappointing.

It's not surprising, as there's a lot of information asymmetry in the bed
market. Customers don't have a good understanding of internals, and
manufacturers deliberately augment confusion by producing under tons of sub-
brands and models. Furthermore, at least in the US, sells are carried on a
1-by-1 basis where the salesman tries to extract buyer's reserve price.

I've spent a few years optimizing the core objects in my life, and my bed is
for obvious reasons on the top of the list. To cut a long story short, I
tested dozens of beds, bought a high end nordic bed (Hästens) and a natural
latex one. Both were good. But, like the OP, I've eventually settled on a
custom design. A very different one, though.

IMHO, the most healthy option is a thin soft core on top of a hard surface. I
also prioritized natural and washable materials. I ended up with a pad made of
felt wood panels on top of a modular wooden base. A huge unintended bonus of
this design is how easy it is to pack and move around. I can disassemble and
carry my bed effortlessly. It's also pretty cheap and durable. And I can
disassemble it and put each pad in my washing machine!

A good heuristic is that most high quality items are custom made niche things.
Either made by you or, usually, by specialized artisans or engineers. I've
seen the internals of some beds costing a few grand. Not pretty. Laughable
quality compared to the carefully felted panels I commissioned from a great
mill. Same applies to industrial tees vs loopwheeled ones, or cheap plastic
coats vs ventile. In the PC world, an equivalent would be some bad quality box
with horrible thermal paste and mediocre cooling vs a custom Calyos build.

~~~
owenversteeg
Great to see someone that took the time to do the research! If I may ask,
what's your opinion of my DIY mattress? Mine just consists of two 12x100x200cm
pieces of PU foam cut into a triangle shape (I live on a boat.) The 12cm thick
PU foam rests on some wooden slats. The foam has 25kg/m3 density and 4kPa
compressive strength, if that matters.

My girlfriend and I both find it very comfortable, and all the guests I've had
also like it.

What do you think? Are there any hidden risks here that I'm not seeing, or
reasons to evaluate the mattress on factors other than comfort? E.x. potential
health risks (back problems???)

Thanks!

~~~
nextos
Sounds good to me. 12 cm is not very thick, so I assume it's quite firm yet
comfortable enough to side-sleep?

I don't like foams too much because they tend to release VOCs. But I reckon
that a boat might be more humid than a regular home, so it might be tricky to
get other materials to work well except wool, horsehair or kapok.

Perhaps you could find a Hästens shop near you, walk there and try one of
their 8 cm horsehair toppers (TM8) _without_ a bed. Don't buy it. It's a good
product but really insanely overpriced. It will give you a good idea of how a
thin custom wool mattress will feel, though. These will compress a bit more
than foam, but they also breathe more which might be an advantage during warm
weather.

Are you Flemish or Dutch? If so, there should be a few shops close to you.

~~~
owenversteeg
It's actually not firm at all! Very squishy. You do sink in slightly. You
wouldn't be worried about back issues with something made entirely of soft
foam? FWIW it's very comfortable night after night and I don't run into any
back pain, but I'm still young, so maybe that'll take time to manifest itself?
Back issues are my main worry.

And yes, boats are generally more humid than most homes - especially when left
alone, they get extremely humid.

And yes, I am Dutch, I guess you could tell by my username :) I'll have to
check out a Hastens sometime.

~~~
nextos
If you side sleep, I don't think you'll run into too much trouble. To be sure,
lay on your side and ask someone to check your spine is straight. Your hips
should sink in a bit, but not too much.

Else, if you are a back or tummy sleeper and it's squishy, you should try to
switch to something more firm.

If what I suggested is too radical, try natural latex, which is quite firm.

A good entry point to the (pretty lacking) sleep ergonomics literature is:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119282/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119282/)

~~~
owenversteeg
I actually sleep on my back. Not that I don't believe you, but why should I
try something firmer when I find this mattress to be very comfortable and
never feel back pain? I assume that this causes a risk of future back pain -
would you have any information about that specifically?

Thanks a ton!

------
CommieBobDole
Maybe it's just me, but the pictures of it inside the encasement with seams
and lumps everywhere make it look incredibly uncomfortable.

Also it seems only marginally larger than a King mattress.

Edit: On further examination, I think the lumpy picture may be of the bottom
of the mattress. Which makes more sense.

Edit 2: Or maybe not. From the article: "On top I would put 2" of buckling
column gel, which is a squishy material similar to a bottomless rubber ice
cube tray." So I guess all that lumpiness is in fact the top.

~~~
MiddleEndian
The gel is a uniform grid. It's intended to be that way. The minor lumps are
the sheets which are not super tight, but as another user mentioned I cannot
detect them.

Regarding the size, yeah I did realize that when I finished, but it's still
visibly larger than a king in person. If I were doing it from scratch knowing
that I know now I'd probably do 8x8 and then I wouldn't have had to cut the
buckling column gel and it would be even more comical.

Edit: Regarding the size again, I already knew the Queen sized mattress was
slightly too short for bed habits even though I am not 80" tall, and the King
is the same height. The California King is the full 7' tall but 6' is slightly
less than my wingspan and I wanted that to be covered.

------
bmsleight_
Wow - where is the love ?

I think this is great. A mattress is something we spend loads of time (some of
it quite fun) on top of. So why not research and build your own. Excellent
craftsmanship and a great write up.

~~~
MiddleEndian
Thanks man, I'm really happy with how it came out. Always good to have
discussions anyway.

------
owenversteeg
So I've built myself two mattresses using just a 12cm thick slab of foam. My
girlfriend and I both consider my "mattress" to be the most comfortable we've
ever slept on, and guests that have tried it found it very comfortable.
Initially I planned to add other layers to it, like latex, gel, springs or
whatnot, but I really can't find any reason to.

It's a fine temperature in the summer and nicely insulating in the winter, and
it was fairly inexpensive too ($140 for two 100x200x12cm slabs of high quality
foam.)

Has anyone else tried this simple approach to DIY mattress building? Any
thoughts on why (or why not) to just use plain foam?

[edit] The reason why I ask is because maybe there are hidden factors I
haven't considered. Maybe there's a risk of back pain, or less deep sleep, or
something I haven't considered. Perhaps the most comfortable mattress isn't
always the best for you. I figured if there's anywhere I'd find a subject
matter expert, it'd be here :)

~~~
glass_of_water
What kind of foam did you use? Did you have any offgassing issues initially?

~~~
owenversteeg
I bought two 12x100x200cm pieces of (probably) PU foam from a local hardware
store in the Netherlands. Link (Dutch):
[https://www.hornbach.nl/shop/Schuimmatras-200x100x12-cm/3843...](https://www.hornbach.nl/shop/Schuimmatras-200x100x12-cm/3843210/artikel.html#artikeldetails)

25kg/m3 density, 4kPa compressive strength, 70 euros per piece.

I didn't notice any smell with any of the foam I bought. The only issue I ran
into was one piece of foam not expanding properly - it only expanded to about
8cm thickness, not 12 as advertised.

------
mosselman
I highly doubt that the extra surface area is worth the poor quality an most
likely comfort of the improvised mattress. Don’t get me wrong; I don’t buy
into all expensive mattresses being better than cheap ones, however, crappy
mattresses do exist, I have experienced plenty, and they still all looked
better than this.

~~~
theabacus
Not to criticize, but you sound like a can’t-put-the-Kraft-single-cheese-on-
if-it-didn’t-come-out-of-the-package-right person. To each their own. This bed
might not look “clean” but it does make sense structurally and the author has
a complete working knowledge of how his bed works and can do any repair he
wishes. It’s the author thinks it’s good, then he can deal with it.

~~~
mosselman
No offence taken as I am actually a pretty handy person. When I choose what to
build myself however, I decide, or at least I hope I do, based on what my
skills are and how expensive bought or ordered things are. Beds and mattresses
are not in the expensive category. Things like isolating your attic or redoing
your bathroom are expensive to get done, so I do those things myself. This
week I am replacing the shower, sink and cupboards in the bathroom, which
saves me between 2000 and 3000 euros. For beds and mattresses you can just go
to IKEA and making them yourself would probably save you a few hundred at
most.

"how his bed works and can do any repair he wishes". How beds work is not hard
and mattresses are not for repairing.

The most important thing though, is that you have fun building things, so who
am I to judge.

p.s. There must be a name for the linguistic construction: "Not to criticize,
but".

~~~
MiddleEndian
My intention was not to save money but to get a particular product that didn't
seem to exist otherwise (large mattress in the US, and then large mattress
with particular properties). I tried to buy one first, there wasn't much else
for me to do.

~~~
mosselman
Sure, I get that. I was just wondering whether the extra space is worth having
to deal with a less solid professional finishing, where esthetics are less of
a concern than support of your body. Mattresses are pretty important for your
sleep and therefore your physical and mental health. I am not trying to have a
discussion about how you spend your time though, I am sorry if it came across
that way.

~~~
MiddleEndian
Hey no problem sorry if my response came off as if I thought you were
attacking me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that despite the lack of professional finish
around the edges, this bed is more supportive of my body than any I've been
on. To describe it in more detail it's like lying on a firm surface that
conforms to your body.

------
bradknowles
In Europe, on the Continent, standard sizes are 180cm by 2m, and 2m by 2m (or
about 78.75" by 78.75"). When my wife and I lived in Belgium, we bought one of
the German 2m by 2m beds, which was quite expensive. But it was still the best
bed we've ever had.

Here in the US, we were able to find a store here in Austin (Austin Natural
Mattress) that helped us find a solution with three separate layers that can
be replaced as necessary, and design the bed to our exact requirements. This
is the closest we've ever found to our beloved German 2m*2m bed, and since
each side under the top mattress cover can be replaced as necessary, we each
get to choose how hard or soft we like our side, or how cool or warm we like
our side.

Given our recent experience, I would never again buy a bed that did not let us
choose individually how we want our side of the bed to be.

~~~
tbyehl
I loved my German bed so much that I shipped it home when I repatriated. Got
about 16 years use out of it.

FWIW, you can achieve a similar setup using two regular Twin XL mattresses to
form a King.

------
TamDenholm
I’d love to see a cost breakdown for this.

~~~
cfitz
Came here to say just this. I was really hoping to find a mention of the cost
at the end of the article after seeing none within the "acquiring materials"
section. This would help fellow makers budget properly should we want to
pursue a similar project. Regardless, cool project!

~~~
MiddleEndian
I will add it this evening or tomorrow, it's in line with the costs of a
traditional mattress purchase rather than one of the new cheaper online
companies.

------
MayeulC
> After performing some not-so-rigorous tests on some of my extra buckling
> column gel, I came to the conclusion that the best way to address this was
> zip ties. The gel is thick and firm enough that if you push down on it you
> can't feel a zip tie near the middle of it.

How about plain old-fashioned sewing?

> I decided to go with a 7" layer of latex foam as a base as it is form-
> fitting and relatively cool

This got me thinking; it shouldn't be too hard to add some thermoregulation to
a mattress, with a cooling/heating system, and could provide a nice
experience. Anyone has any experience with thermoregulated beds? Does they
even exist?

The closest I can think of is that stargate episode (with the Tollan people):
[https://peertube.xyz/videos/watch/965b521a-ee29-41fd-9e96-ea...](https://peertube.xyz/videos/watch/965b521a-ee29-41fd-9e96-ea63072d06f5)

~~~
owenversteeg
I'm not sure about a cooling system, but heated blankets/mattress pads exist
for pretty cheap ($10ish.)

Anyone know if there's an inexpensive way to cool a mattress? I found the
"ChiliPad" for US$450, with discount codes taking that to $336, which is still
way more expensive than any heating pads.

Everything else I've found just seems to be mattress pads with cooling
fabrics, which just feel cool to the touch and don't actually cool you down.

~~~
MayeulC
I would have expected some plastic hose meshes to exist, that could be plugged
into any sort of cooling system (be it pelletier, compressor, evaporation, or
just radiator based) trough a closed-loop "watercooling" system, but couldn't
find any. Such a mesh could be built into the mattress itself.

I would expect waterbeds to be easier to regulate as well, as I imagine they
have a higher thermal conductivity. This could allow to place the cooling
apparatus underneath, and make it something like a regular fridge radiator.

Actually, I found a few commercial products for the first idea while
researching the second, among which a "mycoolbuddy" mesh that seems to retail
for around $60. To be fair, cooling is always a lot harder than heating,
courtesy of thermodynamics.

edit: seems like BedJet does it trough air cooling (~$100), which is
interesting as well (and they made a fun marketing video, btw).

~~~
gh02t
> I would expect waterbeds to be easier to regulate as well, as I imagine they
> have a higher thermal conductivity. This could allow to place the cooling
> apparatus underneath, and make it something like a regular fridge radiator.

I dunno if you've ever slept on a waterbed, but you probably would _not_ want
to have a cooling system. The large heat capacity of water means that they act
like a giant heat sink, they're actually pretty cold as is. It's the same
reason a pool full of water at room temperature feels cold when you jump in.

------
oneplane
I wonder what the deal is with 'naming' bed sizes. Here in The Netherlands as
far as I know, we just use dimensions so you always know exactly what size you
have/want/get. Is it a country or language specific thing? Or perhaps an
industry idea to hide information behind ambiguous terms?

~~~
api_or_ipa
Names work well because the actual size of a mattress isn't really important
to most mattress discussions, nor are the measurements ever 100% accurate
because of differences in material or manufacture. If I'm at the shop buying
sheets and I remember my queen mattress is roughly ~1.5m wide, is it a 1.37m
wide double mattress or a 1.53m wide queen mattress? Using a name placeholder
avoids this ambiguity, a queen sheet will always fit a queen bed, within some
margin of error, even accounting for differences in material: I imagine foam
is more ductile than spring mattresses so might be made a bit bigger to
account for this difference.

~~~
twic
And yet, at the hardware store, you by two-by-four, and if someone suggested
that that should be called a duke-size instead, you would think they were off
their rocker.

~~~
tbrownaw
But that's also just a name, since they're not actually 2" x 4".

------
cremp
> I came to the conclusion that the best way to address this was zip ties

I'd be wary of that, since someone of enough stature, could squish the gel
down enough and feel the plastic ends, which wouldn't be too comfortable.

~~~
MiddleEndian
I did test this out with my hands with the the gel is fairly thick and I
couldn't feel ties in the middle, even without the encasement. Haven't had any
issues thusfar, and the ties are on the bottom.

------
timlod
Kudos for going with your own!

After spending a good amount of time traveling and mostly using comparably
'hard' surfaces to sleep on, years ago I decided to make myself a rather thin
Futon to sleep on.

Buying one made from natural materials would have cost me (pre-University) too
much, so I checked how to do this on a budget:

I ended up buying a thin sheet of coconut fibre as well as some kilograms of
untreated wool (which I laborously cleaned) off eBay and an insulation
material called Thermo Hemp off an ecological construction store. I layered
them Hemp - Wool - Coco - Wool - Hemp. Then I bought a large sheet and sewed
it around, making some passes through a grid in the middle to keep stuff in
place. (Total cost ~150eu, Queen size)

The sleep experience was great - my girlfriend at the time thought it was way
too hard but for me it was perfect. However, over time the materials
compressed a bit and after about two years I had to put something soft below
to make it good again. I should have puffed it up every once in a while to
prevent that from happening and perhaps chosen the layers a bit thicker.

Sleeping in bedding of your own making is great and you learn a lot in the
process!

------
syphilis2
I may have missed it, but did you consider Ace Collection brand beds (108", or
144" width) and if so why did you not select them?

~~~
MiddleEndian
Honestly I didn't learn about this company until after I'd started but they
still only have an 80" height. Nowadays I'd not do it due to my pickiness
regarding materials. Also I think that width wouldn't fit into my bedroom
(which I measured before selecting the condo).

That being said it inspires me to build yet an even more gigantic bed in the
future.

------
nimbius
This type of largess reminds me as an engine mechanic of a customer who paid
us to turn his sons new mustang into a race car for just shy of a 23k USD
birthday gift. When we were finished, the car sat at nearly ground level, only
properly ran on premium petrol, and could clear a quarter mile racetrack in
just under 11 seconds. The owner returned about a week later complaining the
car had to be leaking fuel, because the vehicles trip computer registered an
in-city mileage of 6MPG, and a highway MPG of just 8. We also had to explain
that racecars do not have air conditioning, and hence theirs had been removed
for power and weight improvements.

Go for the gusto at your own peril. There are probably compromises most
customers enjoy without noticing them in smaller mattresses.

------
scentedmeat
I feel a bit like the Princess and the Pea, but those lines down the middles
would bug me.

~~~
MiddleEndian
I agree and in the first rendition you could feel the borders between the gel
sheets, which was quite distracting.

An encasement that made those lines invisible might be too thick and negate
the benefits of using the gel. When the fitted sheet is over the mattress, you
cannot see the lines.

------
brianbreslin
Where do you get sheets for this? Is the next niche trend in online mattress
companies (casper etc) custom sized or niche sized mattresses?

~~~
MiddleEndian
I got the sheets from Advanced Bedding, I put a link to them (and the other
sites I ended up using) in the materials section of my write-up.

Some companies (even "traditional" mattress companies like Jordan's Furniture)
will cut down mattresses from standard mattresses but they don't seem to build
them up. I considered it myself but it's a lot of energy and I'm just glad
it's done.

~~~
closetohome
I had to chuckle at the part where you got a friend to help put the mattress
cover on, because I've been exactly there - realizing I just built something I
can't move myself.

Fun writeup about something I'd honestly never considered DIYing, though I'm
familiar with (and heartily approve of) the materials.

~~~
MiddleEndian
Glad you enjoyed it. I had some other times when I needed help moving things
and had to use some wedges but didn't want to bog down the write-up with too
many details.

------
rwmj
Is this fire safe? What happens if someone drops a smouldering
match/cigarette/etc on that pile of latex, foam and gel?

~~~
MiddleEndian
The encasement is advertised as fire retardant, bed bug resistant, and some
other things I don't recall at the moment. There are inspectors and such for
mattress-related products so I assume that this is reasonably accurate.

------
ars
> Additionally, American furniture companies that make custom beds would not
> make larger-than-standard mattresses as they only cut down from existing
> models.

These guys will make you any size mattress you like:
[https://www.originalmattress.com/custom-
size](https://www.originalmattress.com/custom-size)

~~~
dawnerd
Seems to be a few other companies too. I bet it was more the price was way too
high for OP.

Another option: [https://www.selectabed.com/oversized-king-ultrabed-
mattress/](https://www.selectabed.com/oversized-king-ultrabed-mattress/)

~~~
MiddleEndian
To reply to you and the parent comment. I did check a few stores that said
they made custom sizes and a lot actually wouldn't go up to 7x7, although it's
clear from your link that select-a-bed does.

It wasn't so much price (although the fact that selectabed asks you to call
for a quote suggests they're fairly pricey), it was that once I researched
mattress materials, I was pretty set on having buckling column gel as the top
layer.

~~~
dawnerd
I don't blame you. I tried a purple mattress (which I had no idea wasn't a new
or unique "technology" until your post) and Im pretty sold on getting a
similar style mattress now.

------
foreigner
The last time I bought a mattress the salesman tried to sell me one with
diamonds in it. Not kidding.

------
headnshoulders
That mattress looks dodgy and screams backpain.

Nothing beats plain wooden planks + 3-4 woolen blankets on top.

Made the move to sleeping on harder surfaces about 15 years ago and never
looked back - now occasional sleepovers at hotels leave me tired.

~~~
MiddleEndian
As mentioned by mesozoic, that's not great for side sleeping, which I do
probably 75% of the time. My current mattress also provides me more lumbar
support in back sleeping vs sleeping on a hard surface which I've done before.
It's simultaneously firmer but more filling than a standard mattress if that
makes sense. Additionally for non-sleeping purposes the give is necessary.

------
Smoofer
I liked the writeup + seeing it come together, but this project struck me as
pretty wasteful.

How big of a bed do you really need? (even if "you" is two people).

~~~
MiddleEndian
That's a fair complaint.

I could say I like the size because it's beyond my wingspan and however low
the pillows end up in practice, my feet never overhang the bed. And that is
true and is a reason I like it. But I definitely like the size because it's
ridiculous. On the other hand if this bed lasts me longer than a standard
mattress then it will cancel out anyway, especially since I know how to
replace individual components if they fail.

Regarding waste, I was mostly upset at having to throw out the foam and fabric
from the mattress toppers that the bucking column gel came inside. Everything
else at least contributed to the bed. I was unable to convince them to just
send me the gel. So they shipped me gel wrapped in waste. I talked to a local
shelter but they can't accept pre-opened bedding due to health and safety
concerns, so I had to throw out a ton of useless junk.

I have some leftover gel (by design based on the sizes of the sheets) but I've
given some to a friend and plan to use more for a backpack.

------
jgust
> a community of mattress enthusiasts

This got a hearty chuckle out of me, nice work.

------
SllX
So, is nobody going to tell him that over here we call that a San Francisco
King?

An absolutely cool project though.

------
nsxwolf
The Alaska King at 9ft x 9ft beats them all.

------
closetohome
I'd like to suggest that, no matter how proud you are of this, don't bring a
woman over and open with "so I built my own mattress."

~~~
awakeasleep
If you're not looking for a mate as unique and weird as you are, you're
setting yourself up for failure

------
jlebrech
What about a cylindrical bed, you could call it the Omega bed?

~~~
gehwartzen
You mean a round bed? I get that technically it would be a cylinder but people
also don’t commonly refer to a normal rectangular bed as a cuboid bed :)

~~~
bookofjoe
Somewhere Hugh Hefner is smiling

------
matte_black
Is there a market for emperor and Caesar size beds?

~~~
MiddleEndian
In the UK, apparently. When I talked to furniture companies like Jordan's,
salespeople told me nobody had ever asked them for a bigger-than-standard
mattress, only a smaller one.

Some people asked me how much it would cost to make them one when they saw it
but they weren't super serious. I don't think anyone would pay me how much I'd
charge them to make one the same way, especially with no warranty!

