
Working Hard. The biggest bullshit. - rokhayakebe
Sorry to interrupt, but I have a question. Do you really feel as if YOU working hard is ultimately going to make you successful. What I am saying is that would it not be smarter&#60; even if you are building a startup, to find individuals who just are crazy about working and pay them the buck to do it. I also see lots of people who work hard, but their financial situation just cannot get better, although they do not spend lots of money. I am seriously re-thinking this working hard thing. 
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pg
Empirically the answer seems to be that working hard is a necessary if not
sufficient condition for doing great things, and for getting rich in
particular.

It's an interesting question why you can't simply find suckers who like to
work hard, and get rich off their efforts while you sit back and do nothing.
One reason is that they'd have to be stupid to let you do that, and it's not
much use having stupid people working for you, no matter how hard they work.

Another reason is that having people work for you is not zero work for you.
You have to tell them what to do, and often this requires a great deal of
effort. In fact, it's probably not possible to have good ideas about what to
do in some field without at some point having worked hard in it yourself.

~~~
Alex3917
This doesn't truly answer your objections, but one company I've always been
fascinated by is McDonald's. It's always amazed me that they can take
relatively uneducated individuals and get them to turn out a hot meal every 90
seconds.

I'm convinced that the real money comes from designing good systems. I once
heard that the reason McDonald's color codes the register buttons is so that
even employees who are basically illiterate can hit the right button quickly
and accurately. Brilliant.

The problem with being stuck in a system like McDonald's is that even though
it makes the least skilled/productive people much more efficient, it also puts
a cap at how efficient you can ultimately get. I suspect the most successful
people are the ones that are able to recognize when they are trapped in
someone else's system, especially if it's inefficient, and break out of it.

I suspect that's the key to success in entrepreneurship too, designing good
systems. What most people don't realize is that the money doesn't come from
mastering systems, but from designing and creating them. The guys running
scientology are making a lot more money than the guys trying to get to Thetan
level whatever.

Not that designing systems isn't work, but at least it's the kind of work that
one might enjoy even if one doesn't enjoy toiling away in traditional
institutions.

It's hard to explain well since no one ever talks about this stuff, but
hopefully this post sort of makes sense.

~~~
nostrademons
Read Jim Collins' _Built to Last_. His thesis is that visionary corporations
don't result from markets or products or ideas, but from _cultures_.
Entrepreneurs whose companies survive for centuries work very hard to create a
whole system of values and beliefs and purpose and then institutionalize them
into every aspect of the organization. Clock-builders, not time-tellers.

[http://www.amazon.com/Built-Last-Successful-Visionary-
Compan...](http://www.amazon.com/Built-Last-Successful-Visionary-
Companies/dp/0887307396)

~~~
sgoraya
Fantastic recommendation - I find Jim Collins' books very informative and
practical; tons of great useful nuggets

~~~
davidw
I read 'Good to Great' and wasn't impressed. It's not bad... but I wouldn't
call it "great", either. He strikes me as some sort of "management guru", who
is very unhackerish compared to other business books that actually introduce
clever ideas.

~~~
steveplace
I know we're diverging from the original topic a bit, but I'd like to make a
couple of comments about 'Good to Great.' I enjoyed it solely on the fact that
there was a tremendous amount of research and data mining involved. He set it
up as close to experimental standards as you could get in that area and pulled
out the threads with the highest correlation. Adding buzzwords like hedgehog
to it, however, is another story.

Since I have a mild fetish for management books, I've drawn a couple
conclusions on the whole genre itself. 'Clever ideas' are subjective. I feel
that if a book gives you a straight-line recipe to success, then the message
has failed because it has overlooked the nuance and gray(grey?) areas that is
associated with running organizations and working with people.

Enough of this; back to the topic at hand.

~~~
davidw
Interesting - I'd actually like to discuss further, but your profile has no
contact information. Email me at davidw atttttt dedasys.com

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trekker7
Well I don't know if this answers your questions, but here's what I think.

"Working hard", by itself, isn't enough to get you rich, and it can often take
you entirely in the wrong direction. You can work your ass off and read
business books like "Good to Great" or techie books like "Programming
Collective Intelligence" (which I bought and think is good), and 10 years
later you can still be sitting on your couch, watching TV, thinking "I worked
hard, why am I still not a rock star?" I can work my ass off and implement a
new Web application in 3 hours, but if nobody uses it I'm still a failure, at
least in an entrepreneurial sense.

For every effect there is a logical sequence of causes. If you want to launch
a successful company, you have to follow a finite sequence of steps (think of
idea, write good code, listen to user feedback, etc.). There is an infinite
pool of actions that are NOT part of the sequence of steps that will not help
you AT ALL towards starting a great company. The really challenging (yet
necessary) part is figuring out what these useless activities are, and
avoiding them. Figure out what exactly is necessary and do those things. Don't
BS yourself and think "if I just work hard at these X things that everyone
else says are important, I will some day make it big."

But I think even if you've figured out exactly what you need to do, a lot of
ENERGY and ACTION is needed. Nothing important gets done without a lot of
action.

"Working hard" is a bad term, because it sort of implies having a miserable
time. I love tennis. When I play tennis I'm running all over the court and
diving to make tough shots. I'm exhausted after a match. But I don't consider
this working hard, I consider it high-energy playing. I think it's important
to not only choose an end result you want, but also to find a process/means
for getting to that end result that is so enjoyable that it doesn't seem like
working hard at all, but rather like a high-energy game of tennis.

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menloparkbum
You're averaging 11 posts a day, so I doubt you are working very hard.

~~~
nostrademons
11 posts takes about 15 minutes if most of the post are one-liners or one-
paragraphers...

~~~
brent
That assumes that you aren't reading anything prior to posting. My guess is he
blows 30-60 minutes a day.

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nsimpson
Effort is important, but knowing where to make an effort makes all the
difference.

Tapping with a hammer ....... $ 2.00 Knowing where to tap ........ $ 9998.00

[http://fridayreflections.typepad.com/weblog/2007/08/knowing-...](http://fridayreflections.typepad.com/weblog/2007/08/knowing-
where-t.html)

~~~
trekker7
Whoa... that hammer quote is a stroke of brilliance.

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mironathetin
I fear it has been said a hundred times. But its still right:

Don't work hard, work smart!

If you don't use your brain to plan, replan and think again, even hard work
will get you nowhere (or at random places).

Well, surely working hard and working smart can be combined. But there is a
limit: I usually stop coding, after it takes me too long to find the right
algos. Sure I can go on then with stupid things like taxes, telephone calls
and so on. But if I do, I have to pay back for that the next morning.

So basically I would answer the original post with: think!, then work as hard
as you can, but get your breaks. All has to be well balanced or you'll burn
out. Best is, if you find things that relax and that you'll enjoy while doing
more work (having beer with your co-founders ;o).

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staunch
A lot of people do the mental equivalent of moving a pile of bricks 20 feet to
a new pile one by one. It may be hard, but it's also ineffective.

When I think of working hard in an entrepreneurial context I'm thinking of
someone who's breaking down barriers, being relentless, striving for greatness
(not just "good enough"), taking on tasks others would be afraid to, etc.
Generally just pushing beyond the boundaries of what most people are willing
to do.

I know a few people who are ridiculously successful and they _all_ work (or
worked) so hard that your average person couldn't handle their workload for
even one week.

~~~
tyler
Right. I think the poster is missing half of the equation. I know lots of
people who work really hard at what they do. But what they do just keeps the
afloat, so they can go back in the next day and work really hard again.

The other part of the equation is being smart, watching for better
opportunities, working on things on the side, or even quitting your job and
living off of ramen while founding the Taginatr2000.com.

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0123456789
"As for the poor, they do not appear in Locke's little book at all."[45] In
his "Essay on the Poor Law," Locke turns to the education of the poor; he
laments that "the children of labouring people are an ordinary burden to the
parish, and are usually maintained in idleness, so that their labour also is
generally lost to the public till they are 12 or 14 years old."[46] He
suggests, therefore, that "working schools" be set up in each parish in
England for poor children so that they will be "from infancy [three years old]
inured to work."[47] He goes on to outline the economics of these schools,
arguing not only that they will be profitable for the parish but also that
they will instill a good work ethic in the children.[48]"

Contrast this with what he suggests to an Aristocrat in Some Thoughts
Concerning Education which should be taught to all children regardless of
class.

The point; slaves are taught a "good work ethic"(the same as "working hard")
and the ruling class are not.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Some_Thoughts_Concerning_Educat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Some_Thoughts_Concerning_Education)

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rfrey
There are ways to get rich without working hard: most of them are all about
taking a big risk. Gambling, robbing banks, that sort of thing.

But as pg said, working hard is necessary for doing something great.

Greatness seems to require a very focussed hard work, though. You not only
have to work very hard, but on exactly the right things. Simply putting in
long hours coding probably isn't enough.

~~~
hassy
Robbing a bank successfully takes hard work too, just of a different kind.

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joe
First off, congrats on a completely misleading title.

I feel like your question overlooks something, namely that if your goal is to
become successful, then until you _do_ , you probably won't have the "buck" to
pay your crazy smart hard-working individuals their worth to work for you. In
order to acquire the money to pay them (and them is plural, remember) you're
going to have to work for it. And working hard will probably get you that
money faster than not working hard.

Finally, your claim about the people whose "financial situation just cannot
get better" intrigues me. Who are these people? Do they have extenuating
circumstances causing this? Do you find yourself in those same circumstances,
or why are you so ready to align yourself with their plight?

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gscott
You are just changing what you are working hard on.

Instead of working hard on programming, you are now working hard to get a team
of people to create your idea the way you want it.

If you think that is easy, not a chance. Managing people is a lot more work
then programming. With programming it is you and the computer. You tell the
computer what to do and most of the time the computer complies.

With people, when you tell them what to do they are way less cooperative then
a computer and if you think people are just going to be "on the same page" as
you are and just come up with stuff that matches what you wanted.. well I have
tried that and it doesn't work.

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mikesabat
It is called capitalism. You put your capital to work instead of working
yourself.

Unfortunately, if you don't already have capital to pay people, you are going
to need to build up capital by working... hard.

I think a better way to look at the situation is by separating hard work and
difficult work. Godin has a great post on this topic which he just republished
Monday. [http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2007/09/labor-
day.ht...](http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2007/09/labor-day.html)

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sbraford
If you push people hard enough...

... they will either:

\- not be as productive (obvious)

\- start being deceptive about what they're actually doing (to avoid
repercussions)

\- finally, they'll leave for greener pastures

I realize you're coming at it from a personal perspective... but it's
something for startup founders to keep in mind as they bring on employees /
non-founders.

There's a great example of this happening in practice in this video:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuJU1dzc5kM>

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Tekhne
To demonstrate how hard I'm not working right now, I'd like to point out that
the phrase "YOU working hard" is grammatically incorrect. I think it should be
"YOUR working hard" because "working" is a gerund. I could be wrong. I should
get back to work now.

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alex_c
I think I can sum up your question - and the answer to your question - in one
word:

Leverage.

Yes, it's often used as an empty business buzzword, but that doesn't mean
there isn't a lot behind it.

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cellis
want to get rich? start a religion. oh nevermind...you still have to work hard
to get early adopters... <i>just like any other thing</i>

------
tzury
They say: One who works, has no time to make money.

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yamada
Working hard is for suckers. Look at cats and hot chicks - they don't work at
all and yet they find people to bust their rear ends to provide food and
housing for them. Hard work is for amateurs and suckers. Pros are in it for
the money. The best thing to do is to find some suckers and convince them you
have a secret magical system that helps their hard work translate into
success. But first they have to subscribe for $199/month. And you'll
automatically rebill their cards unless they send you a letter written
backwards in mandarin chinese which replaces every 7th word with every fourth.
Then just sit back and do nothing and you'll get rich. Either that or convince
them of some impending doom that only you know how to escape ... provided of
course that they will demonstrate their worthiness by parting with their
material goods - which of course you'll safekeep for them.

~~~
chaostheory
(you're probably just being sarcastic but) no offense, being a successful
shyster takes a lot of hard work and planning too...

the only difference is that it's a lot more exciting for certain people/scum.
which brings me to another point: hard work doesn't feel like hard work if
it's your passion

"Tomorrow will be the most beautiful day of Raymond K. Hessel's life. His
breakfast will taste better than any meal you and I have ever tasted."

~~~
umjames
You have a good point about hard work and passion. You have also just provided
one of the best quotes in Fight Club. Good job!

