
New Zealand: Wish you were here? - tokenadult
http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/166595366.html
======
archangel_one
As someone who's lived nearly my whole life in NZ and considers myself a large
part Kiwi, I think they're overdoing this a bit.

\- Auckland is not walkable. It's very spread out, and the public transport is
awful, so it's not practical to visit many places without a car. It probably
helped that they had friends with an apartment overlooking Herne Bay, but
that's a pretty expensive neighbourhood; most of us couldn't afford to live
there.

\- They didn't see a Target or Gap because we don't have them, but NZ
certainly _does_ have McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, Subway and a few other
multinational fast food joints. They must have been amazingly lucky to avoid
them - I'd think it'd be a pretty hard trick to plot a journey that didn't run
into any of them.

\- You can actually get tomatoes at any time of the year.

A lot of the reasons I left were work-related, which they wouldn't see from a
ten-day holiday. Even in Auckland, interesting IT jobs are rarer than you'd
like; 99% of the jobs I saw advertised looked to be soulless C++/Java/C#
forms-based applications for some internal business thing.

Money's not great either; despite paying a lot more on rent in London now, I'm
financially better off than I was in Auckland. Salaries are higher to counter
the rent, and most of the rest of the cost of living is not a lot different.
Some things are much cheaper; books, for example, cost a fortune in NZ
(weirdly, milk as well, despite all the dairy farming).

The nightlife is okay in Auckland but a big pain in the ass to get to/from,
unless you can afford to live nearby. The lack of public transport really
bites here.

I like the place overall, and I'll always have a soft spot for it, but there's
another side to this story that I think they're missing.

~~~
sien
There are an estimated 460 000 New Zealanders living overseas or 14% of the
population. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealanders>

By comparison, there are 6 million Americans, or ~2% of Americans living
overseas.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_United_Stat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_United_States#Overseas_US_populations)

If NZ is as great as the author thinks it is he might want to ponder why so
many people have left.

~~~
slackson
There are other factors involved. There's really easy migration to Australia
which has a stronger economy, it's common for people to have other passports
so it's easier to move elsewhere because of that too, there's less of a belief
that we're the greatest country in the world that could bias American
emigration. America is also a big place, so people can move around within the
country fairly easily if conditions for any particular group of workers in any
particular place is bad, which isn't the case here.

It's not quite as simplistic as you make it seem.

~~~
vacri
In addition to this, some folks get Australian citizenship by getting the
easier NZ citizenship first, as it's easier for NZ citizens to become
Australian citizens. This would add a little bit to the 'percentage overseas'
issue.

~~~
incompatible
This is outdated, I believe. These days there is no easy way for NZ citizens
to become Australian citizens. However they can still live and work in
Australia, but remain second class in various ways, such as not having access
to many types of social welfare benefits and not being able to vote.

------
timcederman
As a New Zealander who grew up in Australia and now lives in the US, let me
start by saying what I love about New Zealand:

1) The culture is for the most part pretty awesome. Friendly people, love of
sport, lots of folks with gumption and can-do attitude, appreciation of
nature, etc etc.

2) One of the most beautiful countries in the world.

3) Politically well-centred, and doesn't brown-nose the way Australia does.

Now let me enumerate my issues with New Zealand:

1) Not the paradise this article would have you believe. I feel a lot safer in
California than I ever did when I was living in New Zealand.

2) A bit of a backwater - so far from anything, very socially isolated, living
in a small pond basically.

3) A negative/tall-poppy attitude. Lots of complaining, "make sure you know
your place" feeling.

The entrepreneurs I've worked with from NZ were all amazing people, but being
there was holding them back.

Overall - there's no way I can imagine moving back there anytime soon, but I
do love it as a country.

~~~
batgaijin
>1) Not the paradise this article would have you believe. I feel a lot safer
in California than I ever did when I was living in New Zealand.

Wow, never would have guessed that. Could you elaborate?

~~~
smegel
As an Australian i felt far safer in NYC and San Fran than say in Melbourne or
Sydney, which went against my expectations. I think both Australia and NZ are
extremely tolerant of youth crime which is a big part of the problem. That
combined with limited legal protection for those acting in self defence means
you often feel like criminals and gangs have greater rights than ordinary
citizens.

~~~
vacri
I think it depends heavily on which parts of the cities you visit. Tourists
don't tend to visit the slummy areas.

 _That combined with limited legal protection for those acting in self defence
means you often feel like criminals and gangs have greater rights than
ordinary citizens._

This is nonsense. You have the right to use equal force in return, and you are
expected to retreat if possible. What it means is you can't shoot someone
who's only threatening you with their fists.

And if you're talking about gangs, Australian gangs are not a patch on US
gangs - US self defence laws have certainly not given them less gang influence
than here.

~~~
smegel
> I think it depends heavily on which parts of the cities you visit. Tourists
> don't tend to visit the slummy areas.

I was walking the streets of Brooklyn and Queens in not-so-touristy areas and
didn't run into any problems or feel threatened. I got the feeling that there
might have been dangerous people around, but if you didn't mess with them they
wouldn't mess with you.

> This is nonsense. You have the right to use equal force in return, and you
> are expected to retreat if possible. What it means is you can't shoot
> someone who's only threatening you with their fists.

As a somewhat pudgy software engineer who hasn't been in so much as a scuffle
since primary school, knowing that I can "use my fists" against a street
hardened, violent thug does not exactly leave me feeling empowered. And while
I would not like to shoot anyone whatever the circumstances, I would like to
feel I could use a firearm to deter someone from violently assaulting me.

> And if you're talking about gangs, Australian gangs are not a patch on US
> gangs

Your right, there is a big difference. Gangs in the US appear to be well
organized, hierarchical, structured operations, "gangs" in Australia are more
like packs of disaffected youth roaming the streets looking for trouble. And I
may be way off here, but while the US might have a lot of gang violence, it
seems to be largely gang-on-gang violence. The incidents of random, senseless,
violent attacks against innocent bystanders by violent youths and thugs -
usually without any other motive such as theft - is a bewildering common
occurrence in Australia, and a well-known and widely talked about issue in
contemporary Australian culture. Here is a very recent example which is
typical of the kind of stories that we hear about every few days:
[http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/mans-neck-
slashed-...](http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/mans-neck-slashed-with-
box-cutter/story-fndo3ewo-1226453417602)

~~~
vacri
_As a somewhat pudgy software engineer who hasn't been in so much as a scuffle
since primary school, knowing that I can "use my fists" against a street
hardened, violent thug does not exactly leave me feeling empowered._

So you're subscribing to the idea that carrying a knife or gun is going to
help? But more importantly, note this part of your quote: " _hasn't been in so
much as a scuffle since primary school_ ". What, exactly, do you feel you need
to defend yourself against? You want to bring sidearms into a nation to
protect yourself from 'not so much as a scuffle since primary school'? The US
has major problems with handguns and crime, but the genie is out of the bottle
there.

 _The incidents of random, senseless, violent attacks against innocent
bystanders by violent youths and thugs - usually without any other motive such
as theft - is a bewildering common occurrence in Australia, and a well-known
and widely talked about issue in contemporary Australian culture_

I might be wrong here, but the 'random, senseless attacks' were a large part
of NYC until the very recent efforts in making the city much safer. It's not
something that is peculiar to the Australian psyche.

But yes, around nightclub districts there is a problem. Even your linked
article it's talking about the heart of a nightclub district at 2:30am. But in
reality street crime is no worse here than anywhere else. I think you're
falling into the trap that Australians so like to fall into, claiming that the
country is always going downhill and is worse than anywhere. It's like the
people that claim our country is the most racist in the world. Sure, we have
some problems with racism, but what countries don't? Whenever we have these
discussions, there's almost never any actual comparison to contemporary
countries - it's habit for us just to assume we're the worst (because like the
US, we like to think we're #1, it seems :)

It's actually really hard to accurately compare crime directly between
countries (excluding homicide). A punch-on between a couple of guys can end up
with five charges being laid in Australia (ascending charges, one of them will
stick), and is listed as 5 charges in the stats. NZ does this as well, but not
many other places do. In contrast the US doesn't even bother publishing those
stats, they'll generally only publish _aggravated_ assaults, which are with
either a weapon or resulting in severe injury.

------
vorg
The article neglected to say about Auckland that it's a huge overpriced real
estate market. And the bubble doesn't look like popping because it's propped
up by massive immigration from Asia, previously Korea and Taiwan, but now
especially mainland China. There's always more international students who'll
rent the apartments and immigrants who'll buy the houses.

The last 5-yearly census held in 2006 showed
([http://www.waitakere.govt.nz/abtcit/ps/pdf/2006AucklandCensu...](http://www.waitakere.govt.nz/abtcit/ps/pdf/2006AucklandCensus.pdf))
the percentage Asians in Auckland is 19%. It was maybe 1 or 2% only 25 yrs
ago. The next census is due in Feb 2013 (delayed by 2 yrs because of the Jan
2011 earthquake in Christchurch), but based on impressions during my last trip
back earlier this year, I'm guessing it could be up to 25%. That's quite a
quick change in the ethnic makeup of a city.

When the NZ government ran out of money in 1991, they cancelled welfare
benefits for anyone aged under 25. Suddenly, all these unemployed "kids"
shifted back to their parents houses, and landlords had to half their rents to
get tenants. To appease landowners and force those rents and house prices back
up, the government opened the gates to Asian immigration bigtime.

Because of the automatic right of Australians and New Zealanders to live and
work in each others country, many Asian immigrants move/d to Australia's big
cities of Sydney and Melbourne after becoming a NZ citizen after 3 to 5 years
of residence. That 19% Asian population of Auckland is only the tip of the
iceberg of the immigrants who came.

~~~
nl
_overpriced real estate market_... _the bubble doesn't look like popping
because it's propped up by massive immigration from Asia_

Sounds more like there are structural reasons why real estate is priced higher
than you expect. That doesn't make it overpriced, let alone a bubble.

~~~
lostlogin
New Zealanders buy houses Instead if other investments (to the frustration of
numerous finance ministers). The housing market dipped only fractionally with
recent world events, and basically sits where it was in 2007 at the moment.
Kiwis love houses.

------
diiq
As a Yank in New Zealand, here are the things that I enjoy:

\- The people are friendly. Hitchhiking works; particularly on the South
Island.

\- Everywhere is beautiful. I spend 5 hours in an open-pit coal mine. In NZ,
even the coal mines are pretty.

Things I don't like:

\- Racism. It's not hateful, but it's omnipresent.

\- Sexism. There are boy jobs and girl jobs. This is, apparently, improving;
and I haven't seen disparate pay for identical work.

How to come here: Use Helpx.net. Exchange 4 hours of work a day for food and
accommodation. Almost any kind of work, in almost anywhere in the country.
I've been helpxing for 7 months, hitchhike between hosts, and barely spend a
penny.

~~~
lostlogin
I suspect you encountered racism outside of Auckland? I have been surprised by
attitudes in the South Island, where non-white people seemed to surprise the
locals.

~~~
diiq
Oh, no; I've seen just as much up North as down South. I'm not talking so much
about severe racism; just the more everyday "Maori are lazy, the Asians steal
our jobs and our houses, the French are poor workers..." I guess I should call
it racial prejudice, rather than racism. "I'm-not-racist-but" racism.

------
jameswyse
New Zealand is a pretty awesome place! I left my home of Scotland to do a
years backpacking around NZ and ended up staying for 14 months. I didn't want
to leave but my visa was running out so I jumped across to Australia where I'm
now working on my residency.

What I loved about NZ is that you're always close to nature and amazing
sights. I climbed a glacier, I walked through national parks and I visited
some amazing beaches.

Kiwis are some of the nicest people I've ever met, though some of the younger
generation seem to be similar to those UK.. lots of binge drinking and
fighting.

Auckland gets a lot of bad press, it really is a lot different than the rest
of NZ but one thing I will say: If you want to party then Auckland is a great
place to do it! The bars don't seem to ever close!

There are some downsides though, Internet access in most places sucked ass and
was expensive. Wages are low and the weather wasn't too great, though I'm used
to that being from Scotland.

~~~
shell0x
Why haven't you applied for a permanent residence?

~~~
jameswyse
It's pretty hard to get and I couldn't make any decent money to get the ball
rolling. I've applied in Australia now though and I think once I've been a
resident here for a while then I can go back :)

~~~
shell0x
Oh, that's bad. I thought it's may an option for you, because you have already
been there for a while. The rules for getting a visa in NZ are really strict
then. What are the major differences between Australia and New Zealand from
your viewpoint? I heard that Australia is more US-like and NZ more Europe
oriented, but thats it. It would be cool if you could share some experiences
:) Thanks

------
chris-j
Around 3 years ago I was living in Auckland and wanted to escape the city for
winter. Hearing people moan about the weather and cold was getting boring and
bringing me down. A friend told me about a town called Wanaka and it sounded
like a fun place so off I went. It was the best decision I've made yet. Even
the police are friendly here. For example I once ran out of gas and while
parked on the side of the road a cop pulled over and gave me a ride to the gas
station and back. During the ride he told me how much he loved his job. I've
found my new home.

------
lostlogin
I have never heard Auckland described as walkable. It's easily the worst city
I have been to in that regard, unless you have a car, you're pretty much
stuck. It's a pretty flattering article about home I'd say.

~~~
bootload
_"... I have never heard Auckland described as walkable. It's easily the worst
city I have been to in that regard, unless you have a car, you're pretty much
stuck ..."_

Disagree. Spent a week walking around Auckland city last year along Hobson St,
Beach Rd, Quay St, Khyber Pass Rd, Parnell Rd, Symonds St. This is pretty much
the outer 5km boundary of Auckland. When I was tired or needed to be somewhere
fast, I caught a (free) bus. Great city.

~~~
lostlogin
The area you describe is nowhere near the outer edge. It's not even the edge
of the CBD. Keep in mind that Auckland covers a vast area of nearly 5000
square km. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_Council> There are centres
all over the place, north, south, east, west, and most are worth visiting and
have very different tastes to them. I came off very negative in my first post,
I love Auckland, but it's chronic lack of decent transport options is
problematic.

Edit: typo

~~~
bootload
_"... The area you describe is nowhere near the outer edge. It's not even the
edge of the CBD. Keep in mind that Auckland covers a vast area of nearly 5000
square km ..."_

When you put it like that, yes. I'm from Melbourne where the metro area is a
50km N/E/W arc from the CDB. What allowed me to get around in the 30-40km
distance I was from Uni was a combo of train, car & tram. The rest I walked.

~~~
Matsta
True. I lived in Melbourne last year, and although the transport has way
better compared to Auckland, I don't really miss it. I live in Ponsonby and I
still find I can get around pretty easily without a car. You still sorta need
one if you got friends who aren't that close to the CBD but I'm quite lucky
that the majority of my friends are in the same area, so its usually a 5-15
min walk to anywhere.

I can walk from Queen St to my house in 25mins usually (and vice versa) which
is I find is usually faster then catching a bus. Parking is a pain and a rip
in town so walking is fine by me. Also you save $10 taxing home from town on a
Fri/Sat night.

One thing I don't miss about Melbourne is that is actually easy to get home on
a Friday/Saturday night from the City. Your more likely to win Lotto then get
a cab, so your only option is to wait till 5am to get the first train of the
day or if your lucky find a bus which drops you miles away from home but at
least you can get home.

------
arthurrr
I'm a huge fan of Flight of the Conchords...having spent time living in both
NZ and Australia made the show a lot funnier. I didn't realise how much I
liked NZ until I left. I'm in Oz now, originally from Los Angeles. I feel much
safer now that I've left, disagree with @diiq, I personally experienced more
racism in both America and Australia. Never plan on going back to America
except to visit family, wish I left much earlier than I did. Main reason for
leaving though is because I am afraid of what the US government has become and
will turn into in 5-10 years, politics in America is so incredibly backwards,
and the people don't seem to care or notice what is happening.

------
navs
I live here in New Zealand and unfortunately I'm too depressed to enjoy it.
The terrible weather doesn't help. On that note, I'd love to meet any HN folks
in Auckland. I'll use this thread as an opportunity to reach out.

~~~
Attocs
erm, is this a joke? If its not I am a kiwi living abroad who is in the
country right now (briefly). If you want to catch up I will be coming through
Auckland in the next few weeks.

NZ is an extraordinarily picturesque country filled with sweet but naive
people. As a small-town kiwi boy I have had my mind blown in the last few
years traveling and working in some of the poorest parts of the world. The
really difficult thing is coming back and trying to tell people there is more
to life than the frequently changing weather conditions or the latest All
Blacks result

------
remosi
THere is a culture in New Zealand of after leaving University going overseas
to "See the world" (their OE: Overseas Experience). Many highly educated
people end up staying there because of the more interesting/higher paying
jobs.

However, after they start a family, it's fairly common for people to want to
move back to New Zealand as it's seen as a great place to raise children. When
people come back, they've acquired a large amount of experience from other
places.

------
jacques_chester
Based on the number of kiwi accents I hear living in Perth: apparently not.

------
mattparlane
The worst thing about New Zealand is that our national sport makes no sense.
I've had to explain rugby to a few foreigners and it's a challenge. Still,
it's nice to be the best in the world at something.

~~~
archangel_one
What's so hard to explain about rugby? It's no worse than most others; try
explaining gridiron to a total novice (ie. most Kiwis) or soccer (why is that
player lying on the ground pretending to be injured?).

------
mattparlane
If you're wondering if there's a typo in the article, we say "tomahto", not
"tomayto", much like the Brits.

~~~
jacques_chester
Actually, you say "tehmuhtew", mich lek the kewees.

~~~
chad_oliver
Actlly, wee sy tmato, wthout th xtra vwls.

~~~
jacques_chester
ixsillint

------
dantiberian
He's right, New Zealand is gorgeous. I am fortunate enough to live here and I
really appreciate it.

------
coltnz
How knows Clojure/Java and wants to live in Auckland?

We'll help. Ping me at colin taylor at gmail.

------
idont
Nature + robots: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4wEkZZ3YL0>

------
aj700
It turns out -- US law is enforced in NZ, by ... the FBI (Megaupload) so no, I
don't wish I was there.

~~~
lostlogin
I agree (some seem not to). However the courts are whittling away the crown
case, and both the police and the FBI have got explaining to do. This current
government brown noses the US somewhat but compared the other countries, we
are positively independent.

------
shell0x
I plan to go to New Zealand in 2 months and live there for one year :)

~~~
ivanvanderbyl
I did exactly this last winter, spent 6 months living and working in
Queenstown for clients back home in Melbourne. It was some of the best time
I've spent traveling.

~~~
shell0x
Ah cool, I want to work there for a while and will apply for a work visa.
Maybe I'll stay there. If I won't get a work visa then I'll go to another
country :)

