

Ask HN: Getting a job with few references? - erlanger

I've had my current job for the past year, and the work itself is great. Plenty of autonomy (I get to lead development), a project that is genuinely interesting, all open-source technology, etc. However, It's run by a very old-school fellow who has made things increasingly difficult over the past few months, gradually moving the goal posts when I'm already working out of my mind.<p>This is a startup (good), but the owner is not familiar with the challenges of development (not so good). This becomes an issue when he is unaware of the shoddy worksmanship of the previous developers (the last of them was gone before I started), who left for me a rat's nest of some of the worst front-end code that I've seen developed on a large scale. Rewriting this has been a considerable trial, with considerable intrinsic rewards so far.<p>The real trouble is that this company is small enough that I couldn't possible ask for a reference. Second, the job was a major step up, tech-wise, from what I was working on before, so I don't think that my references from previous jobs would contrast well with my current responsibilities. And because I've been so engrossed in my work over this past year, I don't have any new references from that time span. Having been in the industry for just under four years, this is a significant gap in my opinion.<p>Are there jobs available for a very skilled individual with solid experience but who is light on the references? How does one go about covering up that blemish when job-hunting? I interview well and seriously know my stuff, and I'm well-versed in a host of technologies, specializing in JavaScript development.
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jeffmould
I am curious as to why you think you can't ask for a reference simply because
the company is small? References are not about the size of the company, but
instead ensuring that who you say you are is really true. When I first started
in the industry my only references were from high school jobs at fast food
places and small restaurants. Nothing related to IT or the job I was applying
for. These references though all concurred that I was a hard-working, reliable
employee, who would take on extra responsibilities, always willing to work,
never called in sick, etc... That is what a reference is truly about. Finally,
companies will typically only ask for 3-4 references, and even then most of
the time they do not have to all be work related.

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nfnaaron
"I am curious as to why you think you can't ask for a reference simply because
the company is small?"

Because he's in stealth search mode?

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jeffmould
Understand and you always have to be cautious about this. You can still use
the reference and get around this though by letting the company you are
interviewing with know ahead of time that your current employer is not aware
you are looking and you would like to proceed cautiously. Most employers
understand this.

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malbiniak
I'm going into this knowing that it's probably below the level you're applying
for, but it's been OK to state "references available upon request" in your
cover letter or resume. In my experience, references are generally checked
after the first round of interviews, and that gives you the opportunity to
_tactfully_ tell your story.

Then again, I've got a great track record of working for poorly managed
companies, so maybe the good ones ask for them up front ;)

Last resort, references are as much about your integrity as they are your
technical abilities. There's nobody you've looked at as a mentor, advisor, or
trusted peer over the past few years?

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JoelPM
I think Malbiniak has a good point. I do a fair amount of interviews (all
technical) and what's most important is your ability to think well and know
your stuff. If you do well in the interview I'll give a 'hire' recommendation,
at which point your references may or may not be checked by the hiring
manager. Not having a reference for your most recent employer would be okay.

I think Google would also be a fine place to submit your resume - in my
experience they're focused more on your ability.

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patio11
I would start thinking in terms of how I could make a blog, OSS project, or
publicly visible code which would make a case for "Why You Should Hire Me" so
strongly that you wouldn't bother contacting my references.

We're in an industry which needs to administer FizzBuzz in interviews. How
hard do you think it will be to make something that will conclusively
demonstrate you are better than the next ten people who they'll have to ask to
FizzBuzz?

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erlanger
I feel that the contrast between the previous version of this app and the one
I've put together is that sort of thing. With 95% of the committed code to my
name, I really wish I could just walk into an interview and pop open gitk,
along with a demo of each version. I transformed a hacked-together pseudo-RIA
with significant usability flaws and the same code in four different places,
into what I think is a really lovely single-page app with granular browser
history (the type you see in Gmail), preferences, the whole nine yards...But I
don't think any employers interview that way (if any do, I'd like to meet
you!).

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abyssknight
Honestly, you shouldn't have a problem. For your references, usually personal
relationships and contacts are fine for early in your career. If they ask if
they can call your current employer say no, and explain that they don't know
you are looking. Most employers will understand that, and will be fine with
it.

The best thing you can do is prepare a short portfolio of links, and publicly
facing projects. Because your reference list is short, you need to be able to
demonstrate your work instead. Your personality will show up during the phone
and face to face interviews.

That said, my last position's interview was so simple it confused me. They
just asked if I worked with the technology they used, and if I was interested
in learning some new stuff. A few questions to gauge my experience, and I was
in. Once you're in the door, at your desk, is when the real interview begins.
Here in Florida you can be let go without a reason, and most companies do a
contract-to-hire these days for that reason.

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tom_b
Or just put your resume out there to jobs that seem like good fits. I recently
had a very odd interview experience where despite offering multiple times to
provide references (and code samples) I was never asked for either.

And got a pretty big offer anyway. The whole deal was atypical in my
experience and I'm not sure I'd recommend taking a job where the reference
question isn't even asked.

Also, go ahead and use your old references. Interviewers should be able to
ferret out your tech skills and the references just prove you weren't an ax
murderer at your old jobs.

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ax0n
In these situations: Getting published or landing a talk at a well-known
conference helps. So do certifications and degrees, as much as I hate to say
it.

A lot of the questions asked of your references are less about what you know
and how good you are at a given technical skill, and more about work ethic,
how you think, disposition, and how well you work on a team, under pressure,
and what you do during downtime at work. These are the kinds of thing that any
previous supervisors, mentors or co-workers could answer.

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dustingetz
if your work stands for itself, and you can provide a character/hard worker
reference, i doubt it's much of an issue.

