
The Gervais Principle II: Posturetalk, Powertalk, Babytalk and Gametalk - cool-RR
http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/11/11/the-gervais-principle-ii-posturetalk-powertalk-babytalk-and-gametalk/
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vgr
On both this piece and the earlier one, I was kinda surprised that
startup/hacker types would be so interested. I guess my mental image of the
audience here is younger, fresh-out-of-college entrepreneurial types. Perhaps
I am wrong, and there is a good proportion of people with mature org.
experience as well?

I am also surprised by the number of people who seem to think small/startup
companies are immune to these dynamics :)

(p.s. I did spend 1 year as the first employee of a startup... I found the
same dynamics to apply, mutatis mutandis). Anyway, thanks for reading and keep
the great conversation on!

Venkat

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btilly
Well I'm 40 and I've seen a number of people drop comments that make it clear
that they've been around long enough to not be kids.

That said I'm sure there are a lot of bright kids around as well.

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alxp
I wonder if there's a vocabulary in some industry, like maybe the gambling
world, that can describe the players in this game without loaded words like
'sociopath' and 'loser'. I sort of liken the clueless to a scam artist's
potential victims, someone who thinks he can play and win against a scammer
but clearly can't, vs. a 'loser' who knows not to bother.

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nazgulnarsil
but it's only about "winning and losing" from the sociopaths perspective. as
mentioned in the first installment, lots of "losers" lead very fulfilling,
non-work centric lives.

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alxp
That's what I mean, the 'loser' is the one who chooses to not play the game
when he knows the house (sociopaths) sets the rules to always come out on top.

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swombat
Very long article, but very interesting points. Worth a careful read if you've
skipped it because of "tl;dr". The first article, "The Gervais Principle", is
also very good.

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bluishgreen
It is very good that Venkat(author) is introducing all these words and giving
them solid definitions. It brings conversation to this new plane because we
now have these words in our vocabulary. Great job, worth a careful read.

~~~
Periodic
Very often a lot of management posts tend to be fairly short and be very heavy
on jargon. It makes it hard for those who haven't been following the field for
a while to follow along.

I also like the way he actually explains the connections to other books and
posts when appropriate instead of just referencing them and assuming they have
been read as I've seen some other authors do.

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whichdokta
A strange game.

The only winning move is not to play.

How about a nice game of chess?

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sown
I've always felt that as an engineer I don't know how to handle or maneuver
through office politics.

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visitor4rmindia
And you're right!!

<so sorry - couldn't resist..!>

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zackattack
I was deeply upset by this on an emotional level, mostly because for all of my
life, I have not had an intuitive hold of this kind of communication.
Consequently, I have been operating on an entirely separate plane, making it
difficult to relate to and understand other people.

I would truly appreciate advice from someone who understands my situation. I
am not interested in sympathy.

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nazgulnarsil
I think a lot of engineering types are out in the cold on this one. what
helped me was studying acting (the art of believably imitating social
situations).

<http://greenlightwiki.com/improv/Status>

start reading Robin Hanson's blog Overcoming Bias, he's an economics professor
who posts a lot about signaling.

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zackattack
That article is _tremendously_ helpful because I don't have a natural
intuitive grasp of status. Thank you.

One thing that confuses me is when it's strategic to act high status, and when
it's strategic to act low status. For example, sometimes, when you need
something from someone - do you want to raise their status, and make them like
you? Or do you want to convey high status, so they will want to associate with
you? Or should you try to juggle raising your status and then lowering it, in
order to achieve the illusion of parity?

E.g. Selling to a customer, getting a job, getting help with something in the
workplace. . .

 _Somebody_ has got to have written something about this. Please help.

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nazgulnarsil
How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

the original. so lucid I doubt it will ever be dethroned as the best. hmm,
can't find an online version right now even though I know multiple sites have
a plain text version. anyone have a link?

a direct answer: I personally think it's better to act high status the vast
majority of the time, only acting lower status when it is absolutely required.
when I started doing this people's reaction to me immensely improved (night
and day difference).

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zackattack
Well, doesn't How to Win Friends and Influence People offer advice like
sincere and lavish praise? That's low-status, unless coming from the position
of an authority position (high-status).

Maybe I'll do some experiments.

Something else I am interested in is how social/contextual status
subconsciously sabotages people in the context of sport or business.

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pchristensen
(before I get started, I can't praise HTWFAIP enough -
[http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/verifying-
theories...](http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/verifying-theories/))

It's not low status unless you overdo it. Everyone enjoys validation for what
they do, and while some people get more praise than they want for some things
they do ("Hey, Michael Jordan, great game!"), there are other parts of them
that are starving. People are not monolithic, they're made of many facets.

One example from the book was of a guy who built theater seats trying to get a
deal with a bigwig from Kodak. No one ever got to meet with Mr Bigwig for more
than 5 minutes, and Mr. Theater had to wait months for his 5 min appt. When he
went in, Bigwig was gruffly resistant to a sales pitch, but Theater first
complimented his fine wood paneled office. That disarmed Bigwig and got him
talking about how he used to really care about carpentry and craftsmanship but
has been taken over too much by his work. Two hours of conversation, no
mention of the theater, and next week Bigwig ordered the chairs for his new
theater fro Mr Theater. Complimenting Bigwig's business acumen or wealth would
have had no (or probably negative) effect, but there was another part of him
that was starved for recognition.

Enough rambling, go read the book! You can find a pdf online if you poke
around.

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dhs
Found the PDF. Thanks for giving that clue :-)

