
Amish Hackers - thejteam
http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2009/02/amish_hackers_a.php
======
rdtsc
> [...] use a propane powered fork lift with metal wheels (no rubber so you
> can't drive it on the road) to cart around stacks of heavy metal as they
> manufacture very precise milled metal parts for pneumatic motors and for
> kerosene cooking stoves, an Amish favorite.

That is impressive but that is just insanity. I visited an Amish parish in
central Ohio. It wasn't just visiting the gift shop. It was a long story but
we ended up sharing a meal and spending the day with them. They are great and
warm people. Very good food. Women are reserved and never really talked to us
much. The place was fascinating in how clean and pristine it was. Now going
back to technology -- yeah they are crazy. I don't have any other way to put
it.

See I don't mind artificial handicaps. Like say, ok, let's see if I can
program a web server in assembler for fun, or use an editor without syntax
highlighting with the delete button disables, or spend the weekend without
making any left turns. Those can be fun learning experience or just fun
things, goofing around.

But, structuring the a whole life around arbitrary restrictions (can use
pneumatic tools but not electrical, can use a car but have to paint it black,
can't own a car but oh, you can hire a taxi, can own a tractor but has to have
metal wheels, can't use electricity for light but can use it for power tools
in the shop) I see it more about abuse and control of minds than anything.

This is especially interesting to see if you look at other countries.
Countries where there is pervasive poverty . They would love to get their
hands on new tractors, electricity, cell phones, better education and I wonder
what would they think about these groups of people in a developed country
going out of their way to avoid all those things.

~~~
peeters
> But, structuring the a whole life around arbitrary restrictions (can use
> pneumatic tools but not electrical, can use a car but have to paint it
> black, can't own a car but oh, you can hire a taxi, can own a tractor but
> has to have metal wheels, can't use electricity for light but can use it for
> power tools in the shop)

Arbitrary? The _entire article_ was about showing the nuances and reasoning
for the very things you cite. Electricity is not OK if it's on the grid,
because it creates dependencies on the outside world. If you're dismissing the
"handicaps" as arbitrary, I fear you've missed the entire point of the
article.

And it's never been about handicapping anyway. These people want to be as
productive as possible. Do some reading about Mennonites (similar
philosophies) in Russia; they were some of the most industrious and cutting
edge farmers in the nation. It's always been about preventing harm to the
community from new technology, not about deliberately making their work more
difficult.

~~~
rdtsc
> Electricity is not OK if it's on the grid, because it creates dependencies
> on the outside world.

So do cell phones, taxi drivers to take your kids to school every morning, and
half million dollar computerized precision CNC machines. GMO corn?

> These people want to be as productive as possible.

They are taking regular Chinese mass produced blenders and sticking hand
crafted pneumatic motors in them. Or tractors and then cut their tires out and
replace with metal wheels. I can't see how that makes them more productive. If
anything that makes them less productive, no? Isn't that the other
justification for their way of life -- don't become too productive, it will
hurt you, and ruin your way of life?

> It's always been about preventing harm to the community from new technology,

Unless preventing harm from technology becomes the main identity and the main
occupation of the community then well, one can ask, why have the community?

> Do some reading about Mennonites (similar philosophies) in Russia; they were
> some of the most industrious and cutting edge farmers in the nation.

So were many German and Dutch farmers if you talk about the turn of the
century and before. At least compared to many British immigrant farmers. I
would also agree that in extreme conditions (far north, in Siberia, mountains)
technology might not be reliable or as usable and sometimes just using dog
sleds or simpler methods can work better.

~~~
harrytuttle
Actually the rationale is simpler: it's more efficient to buy something up
front for them and manufacture spare parts. You adapt the items straight away
so you know immediately how to repair them, not when a tyre bursts or a motor
burns out.

From my readings, one problem they had was engineering large permanent magnets
which are usually magnetised using induction which is a bastard off the grid.
This pretty knocks motor production on the head. You manufacture compressed
air equipment with a lathe/mill easily (I've done it and I'm a shit engineer).

While I think the religious side is batshit (I'm a rampant atheist), the self-
sufficiency model is pretty spot on.

------
baddox
> Thirdly, Amish practices are ultimately driven by religious belief: the
> technological, environmental, social, and cultural consequences are
> secondary. They often don't have logical reasons for their policies.

I don't think this is fair. Their choice to refrain from certain technologies
is religious in nature, of course, but it comes through the filter of not
wanting to be distracted by the rest of the world. They do not believe that
there is a divine order that leads directly to the seemingly arbitrary list of
can-haves and can't-haves, and as far as I know, they don't even believe that
their way of life is necessary for salvation or condemn the rest of
Christianity.

~~~
BrandonMarc
Exactly. As Kevin even admits later in the article, their list of allowed vs.
not is determined chiefly by the observed side-effects on already existing
relationships, attitudes, etc, which they put high importance on.

~~~
baddox
Yes. Their communities are naturally limited in size (since they meet in their
own homes and barns), so they are probably very responsive to the needs of the
specific community. On top of that, everything is voluntary, and rule-breaking
is handled non-violently.

------
opminion
_To fulfill the Amish model we 'd have to get better at relinquishing as a
group. Social relinquishing. Not merely a large number (as in a movement) but
a giving up that relies on mutual support_

This is interesting. We have regulations (eg smoking bans), boycotts, fashions
and individual choices. How fundamentally different from all that is what the
Amish do?

Understanding their take on technology requires answering this question. This
article raised it, but did it answer it?

~~~
andreasvc
The article says that relinquishing things is decided by the elders, and the
community must follow. This is very different from an individualist society,
where things my be encouraged or discouraged, but ultimately the individual
decides whether to follow.

------
manmal
Makes me think of a talk I had with a German railway security expert. He told
me that everything which needs to be absolutely error-proof is air-powered,
even in modern-day locomotives. Some even feature mechanical compressor "CPUs"
(especially in locomotors which may be at some time be deployed in coal mines
and must therefore remain electricity free).

------
sbierwagen

      In their goal to remain off the grid, yet modernize, some 
      Amish have installed inverters on their diesel generators 
      linked to batteries to provide them with off-grid 110 volts. 
    

110 volts? Interesting. Why use the American standard, if they're not grid-
tied? Why not use 220 volts? Do Amish homes have to pass state electrical
inspections? You can plug essentially any piece of modern electronics sold in
the US into 220 volt mains and it'd work fine.

~~~
teilo
Because powering auto-switching electronics is not their primary use case.
Toasters, power tools, lighting, etc., do not auto-switch.

~~~
sbierwagen
Ah, that makes sense.

------
brianpgordon
Yes, it's all very quaint, except that they're denying their children
opportunities in the real world by not having computers around the house.
Nobody can leave the community of farmers and woodworkers because they're so
dependent on it and they've never known anything else. In particular, I can't
imagine how horrible it would be to be an atheist in that community.

~~~
thejteam
Its not so much different than living in a city then and denying children the
ability to learn to be farmers. it is easier to learn a computer for the first
time as an adult than learn how to run a farm. Amish take varying attitudes
towards technology like computers. The more progressive Amish now have
computers but no Internet access. It is a community that takes a very slow and
deliberate approach to technology. They debate how technology will affect
society before adoption instead of adopting and seeing what happens.

~~~
light3
But they are not contributing to technological progress.

~~~
lukeschlather
From the article, it sounds like they're contributing to technological
progress in some pretty remarkable ways. Their pneumatic diesel-powered
factories sound incredible. They're not necessarily any better than your
standard factories, but from an engineering perspective these sound like
fascinating research laboratories.

Of course, these research laboratories are churning out a lot of high-quality
modern furniture.

~~~
light3
Pneumatic power tools are nothing new:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tool](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tool)
"Air tools were formerly unpopular in the DIY market, but are becoming
increasingly popular, and have always been ubiquitous in industrial and
manufacturing settings."

Its sad that my statement is being down-voted without being refuted in any
way.

~~~
lukeschlather
A few things:

> advanced the forefront of technology

This is a loaded phrase which makes some unwarranted assumptions. Are Ikea
desks that can be made at 1/5th the cost but last 1/10th as long
representative of the forefront of technology? I'd argue when it comes to
furniture manufacturing, the Amish actually are at the forefront of
technology. The Amish are Apple and Ikea is Sony.

> at least extremely sub-optimal.

This doesn't matter. Laboring under the assumption that tools X, Y, and Z are
indispensable makes your average shop much less likely to discover tool Q that
does all three jobs at once for a quarter of the effort and practically for
free. The best technology often looks like nothing at all because you don't
even know it's there.

> Pneumatic power tools are nothing new

Neither are computers. Your entire arguments are based on the unstated
assumption that electricity and computers are required to make anything that
is on the forefront of technology - this is not true. Electricity and
computers are all well and good. There's nothing wrong with specialization.

If you look at things from the "good of scientific progress" perspective, it's
a great thing that we have people like the Amish who arbitrarily cut off ties
to certain technologies but not others. By necessity, they become the absolute
experts at the technologies they keep. To us the better pneumatic drill is
worthless, but it's still valid technological progress.

~~~
light3
>Are Ikea desks that can be made at 1/5th the cost but last 1/10th as long
representative of the forefront of technology?

I refuted the example of technological progress being use of pneumatic tools,
just look at car manufacturing, they're are an essential tool.

>Your entire arguments are based on the unstated assumption that electricity
and computers are required to make anything that is on the forefront of
technology.

No, my basic assumption is that education and freedom of thought are required
for progress. The Amish have neither.

~~~
lukeschlather
I'm not saying that they're the only people using pneumatic tools out there,
I'm saying that they're building new pneumatic tools every day, and some of
them probably are pneumatic tools no one has ever built before. That's
valuable to society at large if engineers from your car factories are visiting
the Amish and swapping ideas.

Yeah, the Amish themselves aren't going to reap any benefits, and they
probably aren't going to work as fast as people in a fancy lab, but they're
also likely to find some one-in-a-million ideas you would never come up with
in a fancy lab.

------
aaronbrethorst
Was this posted because of the story on NPR earlier today?
[http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287028/amish-
community-not-anti-technology-just-more-thoughful)

------
Aardwolf
Do they have some kind of list of technology they're allowed to use and which
not?

E.g. they seem to be allowed to use the wheel, but would using a rotating
wheel of copper wires inside of magnets be allowed if that would output
electricity? What if someone completely independently discovers electricity
based on the materials and technology they have?

Are inventions allowed? What if they invent a new mechanical way of doing
something? Or what if they invent a new combination of herbs that cures
certain diseases, would that be allowed?

I'm just interested :)

~~~
peeters
It's not about who discovers the technology. They're completely fine using
others' inventions. The main difference is that they live by the motto "just
because we _can_ , doesn't mean we _should_."

They treat all new technology with suspicion because they are afraid of the
negative impacts it will have on society. And it's not like that's completely
unusual...think about how many people, even on HN, bash Facebook for the
detrimental impact it has on human interaction. Lots of people have
"unplugged" from Facebook. The Amish just take this attitude to the extreme,
and make it a community choice, not an individual choice.

------
dredmorbius
For those looking for a more recent perspective, from today's NPR broadcast:

[http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287028/amish-
community-not-anti-technology-just-more-thoughful)

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andrewcooke
isn't this from some book? could have sworn i had read this somewhere, but no
credit is given here.

edit/update: ah, ok, so this is from kevin kelly's site, and he's the author
of [http://www.kk.org/books/what-technology-
wants.php](http://www.kk.org/books/what-technology-wants.php) which contains
either this text or something similar. not a bad book.

~~~
thejteam
There was a chapter in "What Technology Wants" about the Amish and I believe
was written similarly.

~~~
andrewcooke
yeah, thanks, just remembered / updated.

------
artgon
Should mention this post is from 2009.

