

Does Depression Help Us Think Better? - gruseom
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/05/does-depression-help-us-think-better/

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drtse4
"If depression didn’t exist — if we didn’t react to stress and trauma with
endless ruminations — then we would be less likely to solve our predicaments."
Sure, _endless_ ruminations about what could be _non-problems_ help us solve
them...

This article underestimate what being clinically depressed really means,
putting it alongside common temporary sadness or a melancholic
character/state. AFAIK, people suffering from depressive disease are barely
able to function (and need medications) and rarely come out of this state by
their own. So, while sadness could be an incentive to focus, eliminate
distractions and solve our problems more effectively, i really doubt that
cognitive skills and problem solving abilities are improved by a clinically
depressive state (not convinced by the experiment in the paper).

Maybe we should all start looking at problems in a more "healthy" way,
focusing on finding a solution (maybe following uncommon approaches) instead
of "endlessly ruminating".

~~~
Alex3917
"people suffering from depressive disease are barely able to function (and
need medications) and rarely come out of this state by their own."

Depression tends to resolve spontaneously after a year or two as long as the
person doesn't take anti-depressants. (In which case the symptoms will get
better immediately, but the problem may last many years or even a lifetime.)

Basically think of it like a drug with a half life of 6 months or so.

~~~
drtse4
I really doubt that clinically diagnosed depression is something that solves
itself naturally after x months. Anti-depressants are likely not the best
solution (not a solution at all?) but some introspection practices (orthodox
practices but also meditation) could be and they could provide a definitive
solution. See flipside post <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2575551> ,
kudos to him for being able to solve his issue alone (as anyone would expect
it wasn't easy).

~~~
Alex3917
"I really doubt that clinically diagnosed depression is something that solves
itself naturally after x months."

Around 46% of Americans have either depression or an anxiety disorder at some
point during their lives, but only around 7% have the problem currently.
Seeing as only around 1 / 3 of those affected get treatment, and the
treatments most people get aren't super effective, this seems to support my
point.

<http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1MDD_ADULT.shtml>

<http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYANX_ADULT.shtml>

I mean think about it, if we agree that most people aren't getting treatment,
and that most of them don't stay depressed forever, then we agree that
depression will eventually resolve on its own. From there it's just a matter
of nailing down the exact timeline. How long it takes obviously varies a lot
from person to person, but a half life of around six months seems like the
typical case.

~~~
bermanoid
...and the people for whom it _doesn't_ resolve on its own really need to be
treated. I live with someone in that situation, and knew her before she was
ever medicated, and I can say with near certainty that she would not be alive
today were it not for the medications she takes.

You're making the same mistake the article makes: serious depression and the
type of depression that 46% of Americans report experiencing are two
completely different beasts, and it's devastatingly dangerous to leave the
former untreated.

~~~
niels_olson
We generally grade deoression as mild, moderate, or severe. Some evidence
suggests mild-to-moderate depression doesn't respond to anti-depressants.
Anti-depressants were originally tested in those with severe depression,
which, like other mental illnesses, is much less common.

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rogerbraun
It's hard to believe that whoever wrote that headline actually has experience
with severe depression. I have lived together with two people suffering from
this, and they can absolutely not think better because of their illness. Maybe
people think that "depression" means being sad, but it's much more a feeling
of anxiety and desperation. Depressed people usually don't see a way out of it
and will not think rationally about their problems.

Also, please don't spread misinformation like "depression resolves
spontaneously". It is true that it gets better and worse over time, but not
treating a depression is extremely dangerous, as patients tend to see suicide
as a good solution to everyone problems. The idea there is that they make live
troublesome for everyone, and as they themselves stop caring for their own
live at some point, suicide looks like way out.

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flipside
Speaking from personal experience, depression definitely forced me to face my
problems and thoroughly analyze them. The focus depression generates is pretty
impressive, even the things I'd distract myself with would often take on the
feeling of a search for a missing puzzle piece, like the key to making sense
of all my sorrows was just out of reach.

Shifting ones mental perspective is not trivial, and probably essential for
overcoming certain types of depressions. In the end I was finally able to
notice the blind spot in my mind that I'd been avoiding, and from there take a
different path that led me to peace and happiness. It took a lot of effort and
insight to get to that point so I for one firmly believe depression has its
uses.

~~~
Udo
I second that experience. However, somewhere in the multidimensional spectrum
that constitutes depression, there is a cliff where people can fall (for a
variety of reasons, or in case of organic causes, for no apparent reason at
all) into a deep cycle of clinical depression. That type of depression is
characterized by a horrible crippling effect which prevents sufferers
literally from accomplishing anything, including changing their lives for the
better.

I'd even go so far as to say that clinical depression is probably over-
diagnosed in cases where there are clear external reasons for the person
having a crisis. Sometimes, having a crisis can be a perfectly normal and even
"healthy" response to events. Though it is a bitter experience, it can even be
productive, as you described. But at a certain point, when people fall of the
previously mentioned cliff, the brain chemistry can change and make them prone
to devastating episodes that are rightfully characterized as a disease.

The Ashkenazi are a fascinating case study for this subject. We still don't
know whether a tendency towards being depressive is a biochemical tradeoff for
heightened mental capabilities, or whether intelligence makes people miserable
because it allows them to see the nature of reality more clearly. Maybe high
intelligence and a sarcastic sense of realism about the world correlates with
depression because it's the only logical response to the way the world works.

~~~
niels_olson
Is there really a higher incidence of depression among the Askenazi? I hadn't
heard that before. I can see how German or European Jews would have been
affected, possibly for generations after WWII, but that set does not include
all Ashkenazis, and definitely includes some Sephardics.

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Joakal
I believe depression is like a cancer. There's various causes for it. Trying
to narrow solutions to depression is like saying a cure for cancer has been
found. Depression, like any mental illness is pretty damn hard to understand.
This is the only source I can provide for an easy explanation why people may
hide mental illnesses: <http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/133179.html>

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joshklein
I've read about this phenomenon before. Ignoring the difference between severe
clinical depression and "melancholy", it's not hard to see why dissatisfaction
and intelligence-manifested might be correlated:

Happy people don't need to rock the boat. Happy people don't turn their lives
upside down striving to build great companies and unearth essential truths.
Happy people are... happy already.

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Typhon
Aren't we depressed because we think better, rather than the opposite ?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism>

~~~
Joakal
Those people tend to look towards the worst than the good in situations. Even
an emperor may lament how hard it is to find a new heir when worried that the
potential partners may misrepresent themselves.

------
SoftwareMaven
In my own personal experience, the answer is a very resounding NO, and unless
others experience depression differently from me, I can't imagine anybody
saying "yes".

When not depressed, I am able to dive deep into an intellectual problem and
probe it from different angles, leading to creative solutions. When depressed,
I have difficulty even concentrating on a topic and creativity is lost.
Furthermore, when not depressed, my mind constantly works on problems (the
proverbial shower ideas); when depressed, that stops dead.

Maybe there is some other definition of "thinks better" that I don't
understand, but for me with my definition, absolutely not.

~~~
pohl
_Maybe there is some other definition of "thinks better" that I don't
understand..._

Well, there is a passage from the article, which frames it specifically in
terms of thinking about social relationships:

 _“I started thinking about how, even if you are depressed for a few months,
the depression might be worth it if it helps you better understand social
relationships,” Andrews says_

~~~
SoftwareMaven
Except (and I'm speaking extremely anecdotally here!) my relationships suffer
because I start projecting my feelings onto other people's actions. Have to
cancel a get together? It must be because the thought of spending time with me
is too burdensome.

Given the black-tinted glasses, relationship understanding is one of the first
things out the door.

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jonmc12
This study may be related to recent studies examining creativity driven by D2
receptor levels in the brain.

[http://psychcentral.com/news/2010/05/19/mental-health-
creati...](http://psychcentral.com/news/2010/05/19/mental-health-creativity-
linked/13936.html) \- “Fewer D2 receptors in the thalamus probably means a
lower degree of signal filtering, and thus a higher flow of information from
the thalamus”.

[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203084254.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203084254.htm)
\- a self-perceived increase in social status actually increases D2 levels in
the brain.

Perhaps rumination is the general form of self-reflection that includes the
correlation found between social status and creativity.

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kahawe
I think this article mixes melancholy, "Weltschmerz" and actual depression in
a very nonchalant way.

I can see how people who tend to ruminate would also do that on daily problems
and might therefore yield better results but to point in the direction of this
actually benefiting a truly depressed person is beyond me.

When you are actually depressed, your whole thought process is quite literally
de-railed and poisoned and you are ruminating in a very unhealthy way and
typically you are unable to "dig yourself out", no matter how good at deep
thinking and ruminating you might be. Even worse, you will ruminate yourself
even deeper into depressions. And then there is also "clinical depression".

~~~
niels_olson
No doubt it's a spectrum. Like autism, near-sightedness, and skin color. I'm a
doc in the military, where there has been a striking uptick in depression and
related issues. At some point, in the clinic, you've got to make decisions,
and the analytic rheumination hypothesis is useful. Are there other kinds of
depression? Probably. Is it possible to get caught in a downward spiral from
which one can not escape on their own? Sure. Could the AR hypothesis still be
relevant in some of those cases? Absolutely.

