
Cook My Meat: heat diffusion through meat over time - tomkinstinch
http://up.csail.mit.edu/science-of-cooking/
======
cityiguana
I'm one of the 3 MIT students (now MIT alumnae) who coded this over 5 years
ago now. It's popped up around the Internet again in the past year or so,
which is neat but also a little cringey, because it forces me to look at code
I wrote when I was a lot newer to programming than I am now.

One person commented about a better simulator that they'd developed, which I
am certain exists. This simulator was developed for an EdX class called the
Science of Cooking. Although we tested it and found it to be largely accurate
(in one of the more delicious code testing sessions I've ever attended), it
was designed primarily to illustrate the various reactions that occur at the
molecular level, rather than to provide actual cooking guidance.

Also, it seems that some of you are having problems where the program crashes
your browser. Unfortunately, that's not entirely avoidable as the whole
application is client-side javascript, and does some moderately complex
calculations for heat diffusion. Obviously this would not be the approach I
would take if I were to rewrite the program today...

If anyone wants to take a look at the source code, here is the original git
repo: [https://github.com/laurabreiman/science-of-
cooking](https://github.com/laurabreiman/science-of-cooking). Cheers everyone!

~~~
lmilcin
Great work! I had a similar idea a decade ago when I wrote a calculator to
solve for perfect cheesecake. The idea was to have thick New York style
cheesecake with perfect texture top to bottom yet have caramelized top and
bottom (no water bath cheating!)

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compumike
We built a somewhat better thermodynamic model into the Pantelligent iOS and
Android apps -- i.e. user would select 1" thick steak, medium, and then we'd
use the real temperature signal to adjust the cooking time.

The key fact this simulation is missing is that the outermost layer of the
food quickly becomes dehydrated, at which point its thermal conductivity drops
dramatically. This is good! It allows for much more uniform internal
temperatures.

Edit: we did a lot of thermal simulation using my CircuitLab simulation engine
([https://www.circuitlab.com/](https://www.circuitlab.com/)) -- circuit models
for thermal simulation are common, where voltage represents temperature, and
current represents heat flow. The simulation engine allows for arbitrary
behavioral elements like algebraically-defined resistors, which lets you model
this "outer layer dries out" behavior quickly.

~~~
nimos
Is Pantelligent not available anymore? I was actually just looking for it as a
possible xmas gift a couple weeks ago.

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thinkingkong
I'm impressed but disappointed the "reverse sear" is missing. If you haven't
tried, it, it's a pretty amazing way to cook a steak and it scales up to lots
of steaks at the same time.

It's awesome

[1] [https://www.seriouseats.com/2017/03/how-to-reverse-sear-
best...](https://www.seriouseats.com/2017/03/how-to-reverse-sear-best-way-to-
cook-steak.html)

~~~
QuotedForTruth
Just make your own. Or click "as text" and paste this in:

    
    
      3cm Steak starts at 23°C
      110°C and 110°C for 2:00
      23°C and 230°C for 0:15
      230°C and 23°C for 0:15
      23°C and 23°C for 20:00

~~~
n_plus_one
2 minutes of cooking for reverse sear? In practice, a 3cm steak would probably
need 20-25 minutes at 100C before sear. This model seems way off at this temp
range, but seems closer for sous vide.

~~~
QuotedForTruth
Yeah I just flipped the sear then cook low and then adjusted it to medium
rare. It seemed short to me too.

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dekhn
Once, Nathan Myhrvold spoke at Google about Modernist Cuisine and I asked him
how to make the ultimate BBQ ribs (he won some competition). He said "sous
vide, liquid nitrogen, then deep fry". Glad to see this site includes sous
vide + liquid nitrogen.

~~~
paulie_a
For ribs I follow a modified 321 method, 3:30 on, 1:30 in tinfoil on, 1
unwrapped. Sauce them 10-20 minutes before they are done just to carmelize it
a bit.

They are still tender but with A bit of toothiness left.

~~~
dekhn
you're describing classic ribs (not sous vide, liquid N, or deep frying),
right?

It's funny you mentioned that because the other point Mhyrvold and I discussed
was using aluminum foil to tightly wrap the ribs during cooking- eliminating
the water vapor that forms around the meat, which contributed to barbeque
stall. Should speed up cooking without negatively affecting the results by 2-3
hours.

~~~
paulie_a
I was describing my method of BBQ in response to the gp. deep frying sous
vide, liquid n or whatever other method is not bbq. Just like grilling is not
BBQ. The style has a fairly specific meaning. If your ribs don't sweat three
times in the process over six hours, you are doing it wrong.

Foiling them locks in the moisture. It absolutely doesn't eliminate it.

6 hours, low and slow. Or its not passable as BBQ

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wiz21c
Cooking the meat is cool. But, being someone of french gastronomical culture,
I to to lean to Fernand Point saying : "Du beurre ! Donnez-moi du beurre !
Toujours du beurre !"

(basically, butter, butter, butter).

There was a recipe from G. Ramsay where it show to first sear the steak in
oil, then, finish it with a bit of butter. It adds flavor and prevent the
butter to burn.

I also tend to use my finger to test if a steak is fine. I'm no expert, but it
works 80% of the time (to get a good steak). Now I must admit that sous-vide
gives a lot more control and helps to reach the medium cook on a much wider
part of the meat.

~~~
ZeWaren
I threw away the finger technique, and now I use an instant thermal probe.
Works 100% of the time.

+1 for the beurre, but don't forget to buy more for the sauce! It's all about
the sauce.

~~~
wiz21c
Yeah but the finger makes you look like the real deal :-)

Another thing with that technique : rest the meat long enough. Makes a huge
difference (not necessary with sous-vide/low temperature I think)

And contrary to what I've read, good precision cooker and vacuum machine
(dunno how to call it in English) can be quite pricey. A few hundreds euro
down here, so not cheap at all.

~~~
tk75x
For ~$100, you can get a sous vide machine that attaches to most pots and a
set of reusable zipper bags with a valve built in and hand pump for vacuum
sealing. I highly recommend trying it out as the steak and fish I have tried
cooking so far all come out very tasty and well cooked.

------
dunham
It's not clear to me what they're using for the surface heat transfer
coefficient, which I think would be different for a skillet vs sous vide. (Or
even, in their case, Side 1 = skillet vs side 2 = air.) But I only have a
cursory knowledge of the physics involved.

For the sous vide case, I've tried implementing Douglas Baldwin's model on
Observable. It seems to match the "SousVideDash" results, but this is my first
foray into solving PDEs, so use with caution.

[https://beta.observablehq.com/@dunhamsteve/sous-vide-
calcula...](https://beta.observablehq.com/@dunhamsteve/sous-vide-calculator)

If anyone here does know the physics / math, I'd like more details on the
$\beta$ "geometric factor" that Baldwin uses. I couldn't find mention of it in
books and wonder if it is something you derive (say transforming coordinate
systems) or something determined experimentally.

~~~
btrettel
Fluid dynamicist here. The $\beta$ notation appears to be a convenient way to
write the Laplacian assuming that the temperature is homogeneous in the
angular direction. The values are exact for certain coordinate systems.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace_operator#Three_dimensi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace_operator#Three_dimensions)

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MobileVet
My go to site when cooking thicker than normal steaks via Sous-vide

~~~
jtms
Sous-vide is just amazing isn’t it? I won’t cook steak any other way since I
got my circulator. I have never tried the liquid nitrogen though!

~~~
dagw
I've had a Sous-vide setup for years and will use it for just about
everything, except steaks. No matter what I try I cannot get results anywhere
near as good as I get with a simple reverse sear.

~~~
jtms
Oh interesting... I have tried both and had the opposite experience. A steak
Sous-vide to rare and then finished on an ultra hot cast iron skillet with
oil, butter, fresh herbs comes out better and more consistent than the reverse
sear. How long are you leaving your steaks in the water? Are you putting oil,
butter, or any aromatics into the sealed bag?

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bigbadgoose
This model needs density, moisture content, and temperature gradient at
initial cook.

Prob a second model for bone-in cuts.

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hammock
I'm looking for a recipe that maximizes the term Net Meat Score =
[(browning+med rare) - (medium+well)] while also enforcing steak=3cm, Rare=0%,
Raw=0, Char=0, and steak starting at either 0C or 23C. Note that you have to
let the meat rest for 10+ minutes to really let it finish (the default
settings cut it off to early).

The best I have gotten under normal conditions is: Net Meat Score of 40, by
doing:

Steak starts at 0C, 3:20 @190C , flip, 1:40 @190C. Yields 17% brown, 23% well,
7% medium and 53% med rare.

Chose 190C because olive oil. Interested if anyone has found something better.

~~~
scott00
Sous vide with no sear maximizes that: 24 hours at 57C on both sides. It
yields 100% medium rare.

~~~
hammock
Fair, but I was looking for a crust :)

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bcheung
Would be interesting to see sous vide and torches incorporated into this.

I usually "sous vide" at a lower temp and then finish with a weed burning
torch (aka flame thrower). I find using a large and very hot flame is
necessary to get that crisp outside without overcooking it. The handheld chef
torches don't get enough searing to cooking ratio.

Fat and connective tissue is another factor that makes things interesting.
What's the best technique to soften up the fat and connective tissue without
denaturing the protein?

~~~
sbierwagen
[https://www.amazon.com/Searzall-Torch-Attachment-Small-
Stain...](https://www.amazon.com/Searzall-Torch-Attachment-Small-
Stainless/dp/B00L2P0KNO)

------
person_of_color
My question is how to brown/caramelize meat with only an induction cooktop?

After I put my chicken, I just see all the water come out and the chicken
starts boiling in the pan :(

~~~
bigbadgoose
What is the cut? You might be buying brined chicken (salt solution).

If it was previously frozen, and not thawed out this might be the problem.

Maybe you are "crowding" the pan? When you put too much protein in the pan too
close together, the meat steams instead of searing. It needs space for the
moisture to air out.

Or you might have lots of surface moisture. Based on your scant description,
I'm guessing this might be your issue.

Regardless, try this next time:

\- line a flat plate with paper towels

\- take your protein out of the packaging, and pat dry on all sides with other
paper towels

\- place protein on the lined plate

\- turn over and replace towels after 12 or so hours. to avoid this, and the
lining, you can put the protein on a rack with a towel underneath so air can
circulate under the meat

\- put back in your fridge overnight on lowest shelf, uncovered (fridge is a
very dry environment)

\- next day, surface should be very dry

\- take protein out 45 minutes before cooking it

\- super hot pan + high smoke point oil + don't crowd it + dry protein surface
== nicely seared

note: super hot + nonstick is toxic. use cast iron, or stainless that works
with induction. induction should get hot enough to sear at 500-700 degrees

~~~
ska
salted liberally + open rack in the fridge for about a day gives you both dry
surface and well seasoned. sometimes called a "dry brine"

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sigmar
It breaks when you switch to Fahrenheit and use the sous vide + liquid
nitrogen recipe. It autoconverts -200°C to -328°F which then errors "too low"
(for some reason?)

~~~
gretch
I got the same error

I wonder if it's because "-273 C = 0 kelvin = absolute zero" which was coded
as a simple check on the field > -273 without units

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httpz
Does this work for sous vide and reverse sear? Water's thermal conductivity is
1/10th of iron and much smaller for air(oven).

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yunzo
If you put a thick steak (like 50 cm) it freezes Firefox for like 4 seconds,
while Chrome freezes for 1 second. Real world benchmarks :D

~~~
Skunkleton
Bill: check out the new optimizations I added to our JS engine!

Sally: Yeah, but did you check for regressions in the thick steak benchmark?

