
Hackerspace raided in Sweden - sp332
http://forskningsavd.se/2009/11/29/i-can-haz-moar-bout-teh-reid/
======
ryanwaggoner
_It is common in Sweden that the police never return computers once they have
been raided. If they give it back, it will usually at least take some years,
the computers will be old by then._

Ugh. Stuff like this makes me so angry.

~~~
weaksauce
This happens in a lot of countries. It's unfortunate at best, malicious at
worst.

~~~
wallflower
Example: 2009 April FBI raid on Core IP Dallas data center

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=546067>

> [Core IP CEO] Simpson added that there were 50 businesses without access to
> email and data due to the raid. "If you run a datacenter, please be aware
> that in our great country, the FBI can come into your place of business at
> any time and take whatever they want, with no reason," he wrote.

Bruce Sterling foreshadows "Data Havens"

"A data haven is a computer or a network that holds data protected from
government action by both technical means (encryption) and location in a
country that has either no laws, or poorly-enforced laws restricting use of
data and no extradition treaties."

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_haven>

~~~
rdtsc
In case of encrypted data, can't the US government legally force one to
disclose passwords following a raid? In other words they might raid a company,
they find encrypted hard drives so they ask for passwords. Then does revealing
passwords fall under "self-incriminating" or not revealing them fall under
"obstructing justice"?

~~~
tsally
My understanding is that in the US, passwords fall under the 5th amendment.
Here's an example where a subpoena ordering the defendant to enter in a
password was quashed: <http://www.eff.org/files/Boucher.pdf>

~~~
benatkin
The Wikipedia article has more info on that case.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Boucher>

In February of this year, the judge required him to provide unencrypted access
to the drive.

------
st3fan
I think there is more to this story than people realize.

My Swedish is a little rusty, but from what I read in the media and the police
press announcement, the following happened:

The Malmo hackerspace is located in a building that has roots in the
squatter/anarchist collective scene. That group was organizing a party there
where they were apparently selling alcohol without a proper license.

During the raid of that party, the police simply went through the whole
building. Including the hacker space.

If this is what happened then the raid had probably completely nothing to do
with the hackerspace and everything with their hosts.

~~~
jordanb
So then the Police entered the building ostensibly to break up an illegal
party, and then decided to confiscate the computers while they were there?

That sounds like a fishing expedition to me.

I don't know what the law is in Sweden, but in the US there are 4th amendment
protections against that sort of thing.

~~~
mmelin
Sweden does not have any such protections.

All evidence is admissible in court no matter how it was obtained, legally or
illegally.

Of course if you can prove that the evidence was obtained illegally you can
file charges for that, but the evidence will still be used.

~~~
maryrosecook
Does this include statements made under duress?

~~~
mmelin
Yes. There are two parts to this: parties in a trial are free to present any
evidence to the court, no matter how it was obtained.

However, the court alone decides the value of the evidence presented, and thus
the weight it places in such evidence.

Obviously statements from people suspected to be coerced in some way is not
considered high-value evidence.

------
Snoddas
The police reports this was a raid on an illegal club, thy were primarily
interested in illegal sales of alcohol.

In addition to the stuff taken mentioned in Hackerspaces post
[http://forskningsavd.se/2009/11/29/i-can-haz-moar-bout-
teh-r...](http://forskningsavd.se/2009/11/29/i-can-haz-moar-bout-teh-reid/)

Stuff confiscated. * 860 beers, 33 cl cans. * 39 bottles of booze. * 66 liters
wine

Other illegal or "problematic" things found and seized * 6 improvised
explosive devices. Of low explosive force, mainly used to make a big bang. * 3
high power green light laser pointers. May need a permit depending on power. *
4 Spring Billy Club or Collapsible Batons. Illegal in Sweden * 3 Cans of
pepper spray. Illegal in Sweden. * 1 High Power Slingshot. Illegal in Sweden.
* 2 Items of police uniform. This cannot be bought legally * 2 Devices for
making keys and key raw-materials.

------
ranndom
My advice to these guys:

"Better start including defenses against this stuff in your planned activities
- I think since the Dutch boys showed Counterfeiting and Cuff keys on their
site(s) in relation to the reprap they may as well have painted a giant red
bullseye on all open hardware projects. Naivety is a fearsomely expensive
trait. I too was raided 11 years ago lost 8 PC’s and a bunch of software
(20,000 worth) all on a false accusation - I gave up even thinking I’d ever
get it back years ago... Disperse your assets, wake up to the REAL situation,
Police act, then justify those action as necessary. Analyze why you where
targeted and THINK. Police time is a scarce commodity, it is not used
accidentally. There are 10’s of thousands of us to each one of them. Good
Luck.

Sure, I’m paranoid, but, am I paranoid ENOUGH?"

and the last line is a recursive joke... ;-)

------
Joe_Bananas
It's nice how they don't mention that the police found 6 pipebombs.

~~~
st3fan
I seriously doubt that those were in the hackspace.

Sounds more like a serious case of having the hackspace in the wrong building
with the wrong neighbours.

~~~
Joe_Bananas
Well, I don't know who had them, but Sydsvenskan (Swedish newspaper) published
the list of impounded goods, and there were 6 pipeboms on there.

~~~
st3fan
Yeah, also listed in the police press release. Together with green lasers (not
listed as missing from the hackspace), pepperspray and some other questionable
stuff ...

~~~
amackera
Oh no! Not green lasers!

~~~
dagw
The full report makes clear that it wasn't the colour that was the problem as
such, but the fact that they where stronger than what is allowed to own
without permission.

------
rick_2047
It totally looks like the raids described in "Hacker Crackdown" the operation
sundevil(citation needed). Even more like the raid of the illuminates game
developers.They raid your office for no reason at all. Cant you sue them in
anyway?

------
fnid
Why do they have cut away locks to practice lock picking and blank keys and
stuff like that? Sounds kind of shady.

~~~
aerique
At least in the Netherlands it has been common for hackers to be interested in
lockpicking. The irregular magazine Hacktic (which spawned the awesome ISP
XS4ALL) used to have features and tutorials about lockpicking.

I assume it is the same for Sweden.

And if you've got a curious mind I cannot imagine why you would not be
interested in it!

~~~
fnid
It's not about being interested in it or not, it's about the appearance. Cops
don't know anything about the hacker mind or why they are using them.

Cops aren't hackers. If you're too curious, you can't even _be_ a cop. If I
was a cop and I was busting a place doing illegal stuff and I saw lock picking
gear laying around everywhere, I would think they are up to no good.

Why everyone here is shocked by thought that cops would think people publicly
collaborating to defeat security measures are up to no good is a bit
perplexing.

I am not saying they were up to no good. I am saying it is easily believable
that they were up to no good. In fact, I would say, cops who did not assume
they were up to no good would be remiss in their duties to protect the public,
because in most cases, people with that kind of stuff lying around aren't into
it for benevolence.

