
Afghanistan bans YouTube over anti-Islam film | The Australian - jnazario
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/afghanistan-bans-youtube-over-anti-islam-film/story-fn3dxix6-1226473008764
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tokenadult
As we read news reports about violent responses to the video, from people who
seem to be quite confused about who produced the video, it's important for all
of us to remember the basic issue here. The basic issue is whether people in
free countries, like most readers of Hacker News, are going to be able to
enjoy the right of free speech throughout their country, on any subject, or
whether any American or Dutch person or other person accustomed to free speech
who happens to be within reach of attack by a crazy foreign person has to
prepare for war just to continue to exercise free speech. On my part, I'm
going to continue to comment on public policy based on verifiable facts and
reason and logic, even if that seems offensive. I am not going to shrink from
saying that people in backward, poorly governed countries that could never
have invented the Internet have no right to kill and destroy just because
someone in a free country laughs or scorns at their delusions. The people who
are destroying diplomatic buildings and killing diplomats are declining to use
thoughtful discussion to show that they are anything other than blights on
humankind.

AFTER EDIT: Reporting by the New York Times, citing other news organizations,
on the origin of the video and how viewers became aware of it:

[http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/obscure-film-
moc...](http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/obscure-film-mocking-
muslim-prophet-sparks-anti-u-s-protests-in-egypt-and-libya/)

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w1ntermute
These sorts of incidents make me wonder why we even care about "democratizing"
these countries. It's clear that they're stuck in the Middle Ages, and I don't
think any amount of intervention is going to change that. You can't forcibly
change an entire culture by throwing money and soldiers at it.

Seems to me the right thing to do is to make it as easy and seamless as
possible for those who share our views to leave their countries and come to
America. It's not like we have any shortage of space in this country, and as
long as the people we bring are contributing to the economy and have a modern
value system, it can only be a good thing for us too.

~~~
ChuckMcM
You have made a common mistake of conflating 'democracy' with 'intolerance.'

The fundamental issue is that you've got people in place A who have different
moral values and rules than people in place B, The folks in place B worry
their values will be destroyed by access to the media from place A.

In this example the folks in strict Islamic nations are upset over a film
which mocks the key figure in their religion. In the US devout Christians had
much the same sort of anger over films that portrayed inter-racial marriage
(and the implied intimacy). A few of the radical Christian clerics exhort
their followers to violence in defense of their Christian beliefs under fire
by their perception of an increasingly amoral society.

Has nothing to do with democracy, middle ages, or religion and everything to
do with what are, and what are not, those so called inalienable rights that
the insurgents talked about their independence manifesto. Driving a consensus
on this issue is Hard Problem(tm) which the UN and others have been working on
pretty much from the start.

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ramblerman
"A few of the radical Christian clerics exhort their followers to violence in
defense of their Christian beliefs..."

The big difference being that this is always followed by official
condemnation.

Where are the muslim moderates at times like these? The community leaders to
come out and say, "calm down everybody, this is not what our religion is
about". Absent as ever. As much as the moderate muslims may deny it, their
silence speaks pages at times like these.

I even see it in westernized muslim friends of mine, who just sheepishly grin
and say "but it's mohammed, our religion says we shouldn't disrespect him".

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ReadEvalPost
> Where are the muslim moderates at times like these?

Here you go: [http://globalvoicesonline.org/2012/09/12/arab-world-
outrage-...](http://globalvoicesonline.org/2012/09/12/arab-world-outrage-over-
killing-of-us-ambassador-in-benghazi-attack/)

There is a rather large gulf between "absent" and "absent in the Western
media."

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eslachance
I finally was able to hunt down the actual clip they're talking about,
"Innocence of the Muslims". There is a 5-minute trailer here:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBWkq2HPgoM>

I'm absolutely appalled that this thing supposedly cost $5M to produce,
though. If the trailers are any indication, this is the worst piece of garbage
(quality-wise) that I've ever laid my eyes on. I've seen $20,000 movies that
looked better than this thing. I'm not talking about the _contents_ , I'm
talking about the quality! I mean come on, the sound is lame, the bluescreen
scenes are absolutely horrible... I could probably do just as well in my back
yard with about $5000 worth of equipment and a﻿ few friends! Well, if I had 59
friends...

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ceejayoz
Sounds like they had some donors they could soak with unreasonable expenses.

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yread
One of them seems to be the infamous Terry Jones
[http://www.tampabay.com/news/world/gainesville-pastor-
terry-...](http://www.tampabay.com/news/world/gainesville-pastor-terry-jones-
promoted-film-that-sparked-unrest-in-libya/1251112)

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mindstab
I don't even know what to say or do about the top comments here:

"The people ... are declining to use thoughtful discussion to show that they
are anything other than blights on humankind."

" It's clear that they're stuck in the Middle Ages, and I don't think any
amount of intervention is going to change that."

And plenty more

This kind of sad attitude is exactly what maintains the status quo. This "we
invented the internet so we are endlessly right and better than you" attitude.

People are mad because "they/we"[?] created like the most offensive video in a
bit (I'm sure if I made a $5 budget video of jesus eating babies there are
plenty of people in the Bible belt of the states who'd like to kill me) and
just wantonly posted it online and then use the reaction to say that those
people are degenerate and inferior and always were and always will be.

Do you have any idea of the greater context? I mean lets start with American
meddling in the whole middle east region? Drone strikes on families and
funnels and weddings killing entire families. And then downhill from there.

I think people forget to begin with there is some pretty bad american
sentiment out there.

Top it with leaked pictures of depraved sexual torture from american POW camps
and more desecration of holy books and it suddenly looks like America is
working over time to piss people off.

So yes, you take a historically poor, starving and undereducated people and do
this to them, and they are going to get violently mad.

But to maintain such disdain towards them just feeds the problem.

We desperately need to engage them, to understand them, to win them over, to
promote education and health and food [probably in reverse order].

This kind of arrogant hubris makes me really sad that this supposedly smart
community can be so stupid with issues out side of machines and dealing with
tolerance and the world as a whole and different societies. Such narrow
mindedness is just... well it shows us up to be no better than those we are
maligning despite all our supposed advantages

:(

~~~
Karunamon
>This kind of arrogant hubris makes me really sad that this supposedly smart
community can be so stupid with issues out side of machines and dealing with
tolerance and the world as a whole and different societies. Such narrow
mindedness is just... well it shows us up to be no better than those we are
maligning despite all our supposed advantages

You must forgive me for being intolerant of intolerance. The state religion
(which, btw, going against is likely to get you killed) is used, daily and
regularly (unlike the USA where Christianity's greatest day-to-day crime is
saying mean things and holding back progressive legislation) to justify
barbaric acts of cruelty against women and others. Acid attacks, stoning, the
works.

So you are damn right I maintain disdain towards such a culture. I identify as
a moral relativist to a point, but I can't justify, under _any possible
system_ throwing acid in the face of a woman for having sex or saying
something.

It is an utterly backwards, barbaric, hateful culture. If calling a spade a
spade makes me intolerant, so be it.

~~~
mindstab
My point is that that attitude is useless. Great, you feel better for seeing
something you don't like and calling it out.

You know what you aren't doing? HELPING the victims?

You REALLY care? Then step up, and engage. Swallow your pride and try and find
ways to engage so that one day maybe things can be better.

Because I'm pretty damn sure just sitting on our side of the fence and
ignoring them or calling them names is not going to change anything.

~~~
Karunamon
That's just it. You can't just _change_ a culture and a religion like that -
it has to happen organically. Ask a US armed services member what happens when
you come in and try to force change on a nation.

And it is coming around, albeit _very, very_ slowly. Women just gained the
right to drive in some places.

There is nothing you or I can do, from within the USA, to effectively change
the culture of a third world nation. I'd love to be proven wrong.

~~~
mindstab
Oddly Saudi Arabia has just the other mindset, and is being wonderfully
effective at working against the US. They are pouring tons of money into their
religious schools which in many places are just the only place you can even go
for any education. And so _they_ are raising a new generation all over the
world. All through out the middle east, but even more audaciously they
recently opened on of their schools in central Paris to much controversy.

So yes, I agree short term forced solutions like armed invasions are extremely
poor ways to effect chance (except retrograde) I do believe economic
engagement and education promotion are the key. And yes, it takes longer, I
agree you can't really change anything this drastic in any kind of short term
(10 years is a short time). But there are long term ways we can effect change
faster than ignoring it (imho ignoring it will probably let it get much worse)

So we can wait and see, does the American invade and destroy all
infrastructure way work? Does the ignoring the problem and insulting it work?
or does deep long term engagement and education work.

My bet's on the way the Saudi's are taking it. Which imho sucks for everyone.

EDIT:

for example

<http://vimeo.com/46337060>

This is an example of what I think is EXACTLY the right way to be moving
forward: empowering a new generation and showing them freedom and other of our
beliefs rock and giving them education to think critically not emotionally.

It will take time but this x100 or x1000 I think is the way to start changing
things

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rabidsnail
This is a sad day for Afghan internet users. I'm sure they're both furious.

