
TikTok to pull out of Hong Kong - longdefeat
https://www.axios.com/tiktok-to-pull-out-of-hong-kong-e253eb02-69e9-4abb-a5c2-28ffa196a9a0.html
======
strogonoff
> Observers have said the new law forces companies doing business in Hong Kong
> to provide user data to the Chinese government as well as to comply with
> censorship requests.

This is striking, I have not heard of this interpretation of the new law
before.

If that’s actually true, any global company (Facebook, Google, Apple, etc.)
that remains operating in HK can be assumed to be sharing private
communication data/metadata with CCP, regardless of what its privacy policy
says.

~~~
actuator
GCP and AWS both have regions in Hong Kong. If anyone was storing data for
serving it to any place outside, I guess this might be a good time to shift it
to some neighbouring region.

Additionally many western companies have their offices in Hong Kong. Does this
mean any privileged access that these offices/employees had with data is also
now susceptible.

~~~
hkmaxpro
The National Security Law is extraterritorial. Hosting outside of Hong Kong
means nothing.

[https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592](https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592)

~~~
toast0
Hosting outside of Hong Kong is important. Hong Kong can't impound the servers
if they're outside the territory, without the cooperation of the server
owner/operator or the government where it resides.

Of course, if the owner/operator has employees or assets in Hong Kong, those
could be held to elicit cooperation.

~~~
hkmaxpro
It matters a bit, but not that much. Failure to comply comes with a maximum
fine of HK$100,000 (US$ 12,500), plus six months imprisonment for service
providers. [0]

If HK police repeatedly fine a company, the company may have to stop serving
HK or even China.

[0]
[https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1536151-20200706.h...](https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1536151-20200706.htm)

~~~
mc32
I think Canada suspended their extradition treaty to protect against this
threat.

------
baylearn
Meanwhile, Global Times (mouthpiece of CCP) just tweeted [1] that Hong Kongers
are free to use Douyin, the mainland Chinese version of TikTok.

[1]
[https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/12803650546557911...](https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1280365054655791104)

~~~
terenceng2010
Some speculates it's just the first wave to ban worldwide social networks like
Facebook, Twitter, YouTube.

~~~
woutr_be
Where is this speculation coming from? Is there a reliable source? Or is it
just people on Reddit making wild guesses again?

------
reactchain
> The company has said that TikTok has not shared data with the Chinese
> government nor would it, a position that would be difficult — if not
> impossible — to maintain under the new law.

Are we expected to believe that it was pulled because they were uncomfortable
sharing data with the CCP? There is approximately zero chance of this. So why
did they do it?

~~~
paxys
ByteDance has a different version of TikTok (called Douyin) for the Chinese
market, which complies with their censorship restrictions. My guess is they
pulled TikTok out of HK to replace it with Douyin.

~~~
hkmaxpro
Not just Douyin, Tiktok also complies with their censorship restrictions
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23756148](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23756148)

~~~
reactchain
Douyin is likely better designed for censorship, data collection and so on,
particularly in the context of Chinese language - I'd say the parent comment
is right, the goal here is to replace TikTok with Douyin.

------
chvid
First; remember there are two "TikToks": The Chinese version which is mostly
in Chinese and operates mostly in China and then the western version which we
all know and love.

The first one you can be sure operates under Chinese law and shares data with
the Chinese authorities.

The second; my bet is that ByteDance wants to sell it off probably through an
IPO on an American exchange. That is why the have hired an American CEO. And
that is why they make announcements similarly to Facebook and Google on Hong
Kong.

What will happen in Hong Kong? Will all these American social medias be banned
because they refuse to follow what is now Hong Kong law?

Essentially expanding the great firewall of China to include Hong Kong ... we
will see but my guess is probably not.

~~~
ComodoHacker
Hong Kong people are using Telegram excessively for quite some time.

~~~
goblin89
Given the reputation of Telegram[0][1], I hope its popularity wanes among Hong
Kong people whose mindset is not aligned with furthering CCP goals.

WhatsApp with its E2E-encrypted-by-default chat built on Signal protocol is
the lesser evil among the popular messengers, since (1) you never risk
forgetting to turn E2E on, and (2) once chat is E2E (read: always), there is
no turning over of its contents to the government.

Anecdotally, having lived in Hong Kong for two years, I still don’t have
Telegram and am yet to meet a person who is not using WhatsApp.

If WhatsApp does get banned, I hope by that time (improved) Signal and
(improved and renamed) Riot offer viable alternatives.

[0] [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/telegram-
rus...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/telegram-russia-ban-
lift-messaging-app-encryption-download-a9573181.html)

[1] [https://cpj.org/2016/05/why-telegrams-security-flaws-may-
put...](https://cpj.org/2016/05/why-telegrams-security-flaws-may-put-irans-
journal/)

~~~
dastx
Signal for sure has improvements it can do but it's not like it's unusable.
Why you would think WhatsApp, who is owned by a shady company, run by a robot,
is better than signal, is beyond me.

~~~
goblin89
I respect Signal. My primary rationale is that I do not routinely meet people
who use it. Coupled with the reports of subpar UI, so far I have chosen not to
go through the friction of setting it up and converting my conversation
partners to it.

Between Telegram (product co-developed by the creator of the Russian clone of
Facebook, owning company of unknown organizational structure) and WhatsApp
(product co-developed by co-founder and current CEO of Signal Foundation,
current owning company spent a lot of time in recent years under high
scrutiny), I consider the latter more trustworthy despite some of its
drawbacks.

------
jimbob45
I’ll never understand why Twitter killed Vine. It was everything TikTok became
but years earlier. Everyone loved it and everyone would immediately start
using it again if it came back. My only conclusion is that Twitter was heavily
influenced by China so that the Chinese could push their product.

~~~
foobar_
It was one of the most bizarre things. It lost like 100 million users. Its not
like twitter did not introduce videos and stories later on. I was particularly
sad on reading that one of the co-founders died in 2018

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-tech-whiz-behind-vine-
and-h...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-tech-whiz-behind-vine-and-hq-
trivia-made-millions-in-his-20s-he-was-dead-by-34-11550283078)

------
bovermyer
At some point, someone is going to have to do something more direct about
China's government. This steady erosion of human rights needs to stop.

~~~
adventured
Only the Chinese people can do that. The erosion of human rights will
accelerate. Essentially all dictatorships get worse with time, rather than
liberalizing. It becomes ever more difficult to retain that position of
absolute power, the people grow increasingly weary of it as inevitably broken
promises add up over a long period of time.

Their next target now that Hong Kong is done, is obviously the annexation of
Taiwan. Xi will make his move on Taiwan this decade certainly. He'll want to
bring about a reunion with the mainland during his time in power, to try to
ensure a consequential legacy of accomplishment (something he entirely lacks
now). China will also continue to solidify its hold on the annexed territory
in the South China Sea. I would expect further hostility and conflict with
most of its neighbors, as China's territorial and military ambitions expand by
the year.

After Trump likely loses the election, there will be a big decision as to
whether Biden & his new administration will lay down for Beijing (reduce the
confrontation) or continue to ramp the challenge to their geopolitical
sprawling. If the new administration chooses to continue to challenge China,
the way to do that will be to orchestrate an anti-China group with as many US
allies as possible that coordinates against every detail of China's global
hegemony quest. Right now the coordination is mediocre. The countries standing
off against China are too far out on their own and not in a great position of
strength vis-a-vis China (Australia for example); the US should immediately
come to the aid of any nation that China tries to intimidate. If India and
China conflict militarily, the US should immediately offer military gear that
would be helpful. If China threatens Australia's economy, the US should offer
to assist economically (we run a trade surplus with them, we can do a lot with
that to their benefit). Even better would be if the US organizes a group of
three dozen or so nations that work together to do that sort of thing on short
notice. The China response & containment bloc of nations. The US + EU + Japan
+ UK + Canada + South Korea + India + Australia + New Zealand = $50+ trillion
in economy, more than enough to restrain China as necessary, and that's a
group that can easily work together.

~~~
celeritascelery
"All tyrannies rule through fraud and force, but once fraud is exposed, they
must rely exclusively on force." — George Orwell

------
fermienrico
The US is also considering: [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tiktok-
china-pompeo/p...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tiktok-china-
pompeo/pompeo-says-u-s-looking-at-banning-chinese-social-media-apps-including-
tiktok-fox-idUSKBN2480DF)

~~~
hkmaxpro
And Australia too [https://7news.com.au/sunrise/on-the-show/fresh-calls-for-
aus...](https://7news.com.au/sunrise/on-the-show/fresh-calls-for-australian-
government-to-ban-tik-tok-app--c-1146435)

------
mensetmanusman
Since China wants their own internet, what’s stopping the world from cutting
all the fiber going into China and just letting them do their own thing?

Would it be a net loss for the world? It seems it would add enough pressure to
be somewhat useful.

~~~
ridewinter
Isolating China like NK seems to be the direction we're heading, and not sure
that I disagree.

The lack of error correction in the ability to replace bad leaders and freedom
of speech isn't just a cultural preference:
[https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-
america/2016/01/31/fr...](https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-
america/2016/01/31/from-the-archives-the-open-society-and-its-enemies-
revisited)

------
easytiger
Side note, in my YouTube feed recommendations I got 3 videos lately that were
all very clearly Chinese state propaganda.

YT normally doesn't recommend anything outside the limited few topics I have
subscriptions for. I shall don't follow anything political or "Asian" at
all... the feed is tightly the same few things.

~~~
libraryatnight
Got an example video? I'm curious.

~~~
easytiger
I just scrolled through my home feed for miles and they have disappeared.
Indeed literally only seeing videos related to gaming, golf and gaming pcs.
Nothing else AT ALL. But old videos like the below were in it a few days ago

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V14W8A73XW0](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V14W8A73XW0)

Oh and this

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1vpLxGktPoA](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1vpLxGktPoA)

~~~
DonaldFisk
Those are from the South China Morning Post, which was founded in 1903 and is
based in Hong Kong. It's worth reading to learn what's happening there. It is
not Chinese state propaganda.

~~~
MagnumOpus
South China Morning Post was taken over by Jack Ma, billionaire card carrying
member of the Chinese Communist Party, five years ago. Since then it toes the
line of the Beijing regime.

~~~
FooBarWidget
So toe the party line so much, that they're still publishing Beijing-critical
articles, like this one:
[https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3091580/how-
nat...](https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3091580/how-national-
security-law-strikes-heart-hong-kongs-judicial)

Sounds to me like they're not doing a very good job at toeing the party line.

~~~
easytiger
Do you genuinely not understand how someone might buy an unsympathetic
publication to leverage its user trust to your own advantage? It is not new,
nor China specific.

You have 5 other comments here asserting the same thing.

------
honksillet
I think there needs to be more reporting in this article about how TikTok is
structured. India just banned tiktok because of its links to China and there
is a news report today that the US is considering the same. Who owns TikTok
and what are its links to the Chinese government?

------
aficiomaquinas
Interesting turn of events. Amazon AWS recently opened a region (Apr 19) in
Hong Kong. I wonder if it'll have any impact for them and that industry in
general. Perhaps Hong Kong will be inside the great firewall in the near
future, too.

~~~
hkmaxpro
No impact to AWS (but not what you think). The National Security Law is
extraterritorial
[https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592](https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592)

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
It doesn't work that way. I'm sure North Korea has laws criminalizing defaming
the good name of the Supreme Leader anywhere in the world, but they can't
enforce it outside their borders, and neither can HK.

That said, they _can_ restrict access to externally hosted content for users
in Hong Kong, and threaten seizure of assets in HK if the target doesn't
comply.

~~~
cthalupa
> I'm sure North Korea has laws criminalizing defaming the good name of the
> Supreme Leader anywhere in the world, but they can't enforce it outside
> their borders, and neither can HK.

There's a lot more extradition treaties with HK and the PRC than there are
with NK. Any country that China can exert significant pressure on could detain
and extradite you if China decides you have broken the HK NSL.

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
A basic principle of extradition is that the action has to be a crime in
_both_ countries, which is why nobody extradites Saudis convicted of
witchcraft or homosexuality.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_criminality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_criminality)

------
yurlungur
Most likely a futile move. I think ByteDance will learn very soon that when
the political will is ample, no amount of technical or legal maneuvering can
avoid a state crackdown, in the US or elsewhere.

------
balola
I think ByteDance is in an unresolvable situation, on one hand they absolutely
can't afford losing the China market, that means they have to stay Chinese and
loyal to the party; but on the other hand, if they don't sever with China
completely, a global ban looks inevitable.

As for the public opinion in China, the majority thinks this is unfair, coz
FB, YT and Twitter "wasn't banned, they themselves pulled out coz they don't
want to respect Chinese laws".

------
zadokshi
It matters where the servers are hosted. It’s not possible to even host a
server in the Chinese region without Chinese government issued identity card.
If they had servers in Hong Kong, then they Now fall under Chinese security
regulations. (It might be that they had servers in Hong Kong, they are needing
to turn them off to avoid their servers falling under the new laws)

------
hkmaxpro
TikTok can just continue with their censorship of Tiananmen Square, Tibetan
independence, Falun Gong [0], Uighur [1], and Hong Kong protests [2].

Even without this law, their moderators already banned contents “endangering
national security” or deemed “uglification or distortion of local or other
countries’ history” [3].

Business as usual. No need to pull out.

[0]
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-
how-tiktok-censors-videos-that-do-not-please-beijing)

[1] [https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/tiktok-says-it-doesnt-
censor...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/tiktok-says-it-doesnt-censor-but-a-
user-who-criticized-china-was-locked-out.html)

[2]
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/15/tiktoks...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/15/tiktoks-
beijing-roots-fuel-censorship-suspicion-it-builds-huge-us-
audience/?noredirect=on)

[3] [https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktok-once-again-
come...](https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktok-once-again-comes-under-
scrutiny-over-extreme-moderation-and-censorsh/574243/)

------
yorwba
I wonder what that means in practice. Are they going to block HK IPs, take
down their app from the local app store, close accounts of HK users or will
they simply dissolve whatever business presence they have there and claim that
means they're no longer operating there?

------
amriksohata
All a publicity stunt to make it look like they are not under Chinese control
when in reality no one in HK trusts the app so they have nothing to lose as
very few users there

------
Copenjin
Are we supposed to believe that TikTok cares about the privacy of its users
and protects them from any inquiry from the chinese officials, or that is even
starting a privacy fight with the CCP?! Laughable, c'mon.

------
whydoyoucare
The pot calling the kettle black?

------
PlasticTank
Judging by some of the posts on HN in recent China related threads it seems we
may have the attention of the infamous 50 cent armies.

------
0xy
Are they pretending they aren't a CCP spying apparatus with this move? Seems
like simple marketing smoke-and-mirrors to me. Much like Zoom flailing with
"privacy" initiatives while being a nation state spying program.

~~~
xster
Are you just saying the California company Zoom is a "nation state spying
program" because the founder is Asian looking?

~~~
yesplorer
which part of their comment stated or even remotely implied '...because the
founder is asian looking'?

if anyone will be called racist in this thread, it will probably be you.

~~~
xster
The part that brought up Zoom in a discussion that has nothing to do with Zoom

------
blunderkid
Desperate move to keep up the charade of not being a CCP shop. On a slightly
separate note, given all the virtue signaling of companies like Apple in the
context of BLM, its worth reiterating that any US tech company helping the
imperial CCP spy and silence its citizens is unambiguously although quite
duplicitously with the dark side. Any doubts the world had that the CCP is
peace loving humans just like us, now stand well and truly shattered. They are
communists and they are rich. They are more dangerous than the Soviets ever
got to be.

