
Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece - acheron
https://www.wsj.com/articles/macedonia-agrees-to-change-its-name-to-end-bitter-dispute-with-greece-1528820594
======
chadash
This is pay-walled, but here's a summary:

The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was
formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because
"Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This
would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from
Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Republic
of Macedonia's name implied that it had territorial ambitions for parts of
Northern Greece. As a compromise, the country will now be called North
Macedonia.

~~~
pavlov
Instead of Maine, you can find a better analogy at the opposite end of the
United States.

There’s a Mexican state named Baja California and a US state named simply
California. Exact same thing as this Macedonia business.

~~~
dghughes
I know this is always unpopular but, how about the name America?

I refer to the country south of me as "the US" or "the USA". To me as a
Canadian I live in the Americas so I could be an American. Growing up nobody I
knew called the US "America" you'd even hear "the Boston States", I have no
clue how that originated.

But I've noticed over the past decade or two it's become more common for
people in the US to refer to their country as America. I know it's a shortened
form but still, to me, it's weird because:

Europe, Europeans Africa, Africans Asia, Asians Americas, ? (demonym for
people of the entire region?)

I know some people counter with it's "North America dummy!" but wouldn't that
mean the USA should be the USNA?

~~~
abnry
To be fair, the USA is the only country with America in it's name. And what
would you call people who live in the United States other than Americans? Hop,
skip and a jump to calling the place Americans live America.

~~~
TheForumTroll
I see more and more write USAnians. All from people that dislikes everything
US but I like it!

~~~
toasterlovin
How do you say that out loud?

------
JumpCrisscross
I have been to Northern Greece. I have friends from Macedonia. This is the
stupidest international dispute I think our reality can support.

~~~
interdrift
No, it's not as stupid as you might think. FYROM was part of Bulgaria for a
very long time. Lots of history of the empires happend there, they claim that
it's theirs. Same for Alexander Macedon(he's obviously greek). If you claim
some identity in front of many people you must be able to support it otherwise
you end up looking like a fool. Imagine a nation of such deluded by the system
people.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Same for Alexander Macedon (he 's obviously greek)_

Alexander III of Macedon died in 323 B.C. That's 2,300 years ago. Turning a
millennium-and-a-half footnote into a geopolitical issue is stupid.

> _If you claim some identity in front of many people you must be able to
> support it otherwise you end up looking like a fool_

Greece's per-capita GDP is three-quarters that of Europe's average [1].
Macedonia's is less than one-third that of Greece's. This is a stupid thing
for two poor countries to create economic, political and geopolitical hurdles
out of.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Eu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_\(nominal\)_per_capita)

~~~
interdrift
A lot of these things are not about wealth, they are about identity. Wealth is
much easier to create than identity.

~~~
Lanthanide
Things get a bit more difficult when the identity is standing in the way of
creating wealth. This seems to be the case here, assuming EU/NATO memberships
would be largely positive economic forces for Macedonia.

------
Keyframe
For anyone interested, wikipedia has a surprisingly in-depth account of the
whole ordeal over the years:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute)

------
neonate
[http://archive.li/a9rda](http://archive.li/a9rda)

------
smolsky
Here in the Bay Area there is a smaller scale issue of the same kind between
Palo Alto and East Palo Alto. In this case the former does not like the latter
to have anything similar in its name... oh well.

~~~
DrScump
The latter name is just nonsensical -- EPA is _northwest_ of PA and in a
different county altogether.

When the Four Seasons opened in EPA, they initially gave the address as just
"Palo Alto" but with the proper EPA Zip code, knowing that the USPS would
still deliver the same. Media later called them on it.

------
gumby
Is this the real reason for Brexit: that it was intolerable to have
"Bretaigne" and "Great Britain" next to each other in the EU?

------
minikites
This is a great (but now dated) video covering the history of the dispute
between Greece and North Macedonia and it reviews some of the reasons why it
was disputed for so many years:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWgq48jPgP8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWgq48jPgP8)

------
mkempe
Naming themselves "North Macedonia" kind of implies that they are strongly
connected to the other three Macedonia (administrative) regions of Greece
(Western, Central, Eastern). The reason they're not going to join Greece is
that there are no ethnic Greeks there, so why not call themselves Slav
Macedonia instead?

[added after downvotes] what is wrong with asking why "North" is the chosen
distinction? it seems that the more substantial distinction is the slavic vs
greek culture and population _when one considers the four regions that use the
name "Macedonia"_!

~~~
salex89
I can only guess because around a quarter of the population is Albanian, and
they currently (and probably will also in the future) constitute the
parliamentary majority. The Albanian population is currently in a surge, and
Albanians don't really like to be mixed up with Slavs...

~~~
stoic_beard
"Around a quarter of the population is Albanian" \- is this also your educated
guess, or something you "read" online?

The FACT is that the last Census was done in 2002. According to conservative
estimates pulled from the Health Ministry, there are less than 20% of
Albanians currently residing on the territory of Macedonia.

And a little free lesson in history for you: The Slavs you are referring to,
in the 6th century did in fact invade and conquer present day Macedonia and
whole of Greece, all the way down to Peloponnesus. Byzantine historians stated
that the Macedonians did not disappear with the Slavic invasion but continued
to exist. In the 10th century Salonica is described as the "largest city of
the Macedonians".

~~~
albinary10
According to the 2002 Census, 46.5% of the children aged 0–4 were Muslim.
Macedonians will be minority very soon. It might come a time when this country
will be called Eastern Albania.

Given the extreme nationalism of the Macedonians I do not think this country
will resist history very long in this configuration. And if they do not accept
the Albanians and do not live in peace with them they will be soon a tiny joke
country.

~~~
stoic_beard
By your bias and derogatory comment, it is evident that you lack a very basic
understanding of the weight and proud nature Macedonians and Albanians feel as
people, as neighbors, and as individuals.

Having grown up with Macedonian-Albanian friends, to this day, we both have
respect for each others traditions. The common people living in Macedonia,
regardless of their ethnic background, want one thing, and that is: peace and
prosperity. Not war, nor divide, and not putting down, one another.

The conflict of 2001 is still a fresh reminder what can happen, where KFOR and
NATO had to rescue the terrorist cowards surrounded by the Macedonian
military. This is a fact.

Define "extreme nationalism", I challenge you.

Macedonians are all people born in Macedonia. Everyone else, is a tourist, on
a tourist visa.

Therefore, calling one self Albanian, while born in Macedonia is the same as a
person of African descent born in the US, calling him/her self African,
instead of African-American.

See how what you "think" makes no sense.

~~~
albinary10
Your analogy sucks. But I am not here to increase your intellectual
capabilities. And I do not think that is possible.

The Albanians are native in that region whereas you are the newcomers. So, if
you think a little bit more (which I highly doubt you can) you will understand
why your analogy is just nonsense.

The Albanians are Albanians and they will remain Albanians. They are of course
citizens of Macedonia, a joke sate which does not even have an acceptable
name, but they are Albanians.

You want examples? Boban Ilic killed a 4-year old Albanian. I am not talking
about other incidents, but killing with your car a 4-year old is just an act
of a coward criminal/animal. And most of the Macedonians/Bulgarians supported
him. Moreover, he is free to go.

[https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/people-protest-
th...](https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/people-protest-the-release-
of-boban-ilic-pending-trial-on-news-footage/936618540)

Anyway, as I said, you are a joke state, and very soon you will be a minority
in that joke state.

Let me see then if you can kill 4 years old child.

------
vermontdevil
Well at least it’s clearer than Outer and Inner Mongolia.

------
hristov
They should change their name to Western Bulgaria. It will be more accurate
and Bulgarians won't mind.

~~~
Keyframe
I'm quite sure macedonians would consider that statement offensive and
disrespectful.

~~~
reaperducer
If they're offended, they can be speak for themselves. They don't need an
outsider being proxy-offended for them.

~~~
Keyframe
I saw it as my duty to notify you of something offensive you've said. I don't
have to be 'them' to know that. Take it as you will.

~~~
reaperducer
_I saw it as my duty to notify you of something offensive you 've said._

I said nothing offensive.

You're so interested in SJW-championing other people's causes to make yourself
feel morally superior that you didn't even bother to notice that I'm not the
OC.

 _Take it as you will._

I don't need your permission.

~~~
Keyframe
I'm glad you know me so well, we should hang out. Then we can talk about my
involvement with macedonian (and bulgarian and greek) people, historians,
politicians, film workers and 'common people' over the past few years while I
was working on a TV series regarding the topic we are currently discussing.
Can't wait to tell you about albanian position within republic today and how
that story trumps over what we're talking about here, regarding Greece and
even Bulgaria. Also, how important Macedonia (as an entity) is to the whole
region and how key people and things developed there which influenced world
politics. How special relations Bulgaria has with Macedonia (VRMO for example,
which is key to Bulgaria and where M stands for Macedonia) and lots of other
interesting things.

