

Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference? - juwo

Please comment on the two:<p>A) Extreme case:<p>[deleted]<p>B) Normal Case:<p>You keep a copy of your work and designs so you can reuse the ideas and perhaps even snippets of code. It is also a record of your work.
This is for 'normal' work that took lots of thought and effort, not patented stuff.<p>
Qs: How many of you regularly do B? Please also comment on A
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nickb
OK, I was contracting in my previous life so I've seen these issues pop up
many times before. Here's few words.

A) is illegal. You have no ownership of ANY code or IP that you work on at the
company that employs you. That's what they're paying you for, after all.

B) is also illegal. Unless the company in question has open sourced their code
and allows anyone to use it under some kind of a BSD-like license, you have
absolutely no right to use that code or IP.

Not only are both of these cases illegal, they're also highly unethical. Also,
if you're forming a company around someone else's IP, you're gonna crash and
burn.

When I worked as a contractor, I would use my own libraries to save me some
time but before I used them, I notified the management that I was using them
and told them that I own the code and that I give them full right to use it
without any licensing fees and I also told them I would use them on my other
contracting jobs. They always accepted these stipulations an I've never had
any problems. They loved the fact that I was not wasting my time and their
money re-implementing the wheel and that I was solving their problems in
record time. The key is to be open and put it all on the table before you
start working.

Also, after I'd finish working on a project and if I was using my own
computer, I'd wipe my computer clean of all of their code. I would do that on
the last day of my job and I ALWAYS made sure that someone from the management
was there to witness it. Sure, that might be going overboard but trust me...
it's worth it. It shows them that you care about these sorts of things and it
also makes sure that they won't have a strong case if they ever decide to sue
you down the road because you end up inventing something amazing that's in
their marketspace or you end up working for competition.

~~~
menloparkbum
You are totally wrong. In a contracting situation, the CONTRACTOR owns all the
code he or she produces unless the contract specifically states otherwise.

~~~
jsjenkins168
The contract almost always states otherwise though. Unless maybe you're
working in an area where the companies doesn't care about their IP or are just
simply ignorant.

~~~
menloparkbum
I've worked on over 20 software contracts and never once did the contract
contain a clause that forced me to assign copyright agreement to the person
paying for the software. Note that this only applies to contractors, not
exempt employees.

[http://www.developerdotstar.com/mag/articles/daniels_softwar...](http://www.developerdotstar.com/mag/articles/daniels_softwarecopyright.html)

~~~
nostrademons
Interesting...at the places I've worked (as an employee), it was considered a
dealbreaker if a contractor wanted to own the source code they produced. We
passed up some really, really good contractors because they wanted to own the
product.

~~~
juwo
please also comment on A) since the person is likely to become an investor in
my product in the near term.

~~~
nostrademons
I'm not actually commenting on either A) or B), just on menloparkbum's comment
that it's common for contractors to retain ownership.

I don't really want to get into the ethics of it, because I don't think
ethical debates are particularly fruitful. (I took a course in meta-ethics in
college, which makes me particularly suspicious in attempts to ground ethical
judgments in factual statements or logical debate.) I'll tell you that _I_
wouldn't do it; it sounds dodgy enough that I wouldn't really want to get
involved with it. Ultimately, most ethical judgments come down to gut feelings
about right or wrong.

I will say that right or wrong, I think it's _stupid_. You're opening yourself
up to big legal liability. If acquirers or investors find out about it (and
they will - that's what due diligence is for), they _will_ nix the deal. Heck,
I'm spending about $1K to have a lawyer draw up a release to make sure all IP
I developed for my startup while employed belongs to me, and I _didn't_ take
any source code from my employer (I'm using a completely different technology
platform and am in a completely different area of business.) It's just
something I don't want to fuck around with.

------
jgamman
if the code is a crystallisation of their business idea then using it again is
equivalent to re-using their business idea and i think that is highly un-
ethical. if you are talking about reusing some CSS templates and changing the
colors - meh. personally, i err on the side of caution and never take work
with me from one company to another - often i can condense 6 months of learn-
by-doing into a couple of weeks of do-over since it is the overall direction
and knowing what is definitely wrong that saves time. /note: i'm a scientist
not a programmer but i think the same situations apply

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menloparkbum
It may or may not be illegal or ethical, but it is rarely useful. I used to
keep most of the code I've written for employers over the years, but I never
once looked at it.

~~~
staunch
Same here. My feeling is that being ethically compelled to re-implement
something you've done before is a blessing in disguise.

~~~
juwo
please also comment on A) since the person is likely to become an investor in
my product in the near term.

------
extantproject
What agreements have been made with the employer? Hire an intellectual
property lawyer to read and discuss the implications of any written contracts
and agreements made with the employer.

~~~
juwo
its not about legalities.

------
mojuba
Perhaps you can use your ideas but certainly not your code.

I managed to open-source some parts of my code (basically some generic
libraries) under a very liberal license and to reuse it in other companies.
Not without agreement with the employers, of course.

------
sripanyam
well it is certainly illegal ... ethics are fudged... using the source code or
work derived from the code is certainly unethical (i think) because your code
was paid by the employer..

but the actual idea? well where would you guys classify this? i think the
actual idea unless protected by a patent is open.. also a lot of companies put
a no-compete clause forbidding working for another company in the same domain
... (even though in some countries thats against the law)

~~~
sripanyam
regardign the "idea being protected by a patent", i meant if worded carefully
with the necessary legal mumbo jumbo... (eg in australia, software patents are
usually titled - a way using a COMPUTER to do steps explained in algorithm X)

------
edw519
Both are unethical and NEVER acceptable. Run, don't walk, the other way from
those who rationalize this behavior.

(Why is it that when it comes to ethics, what was once clear cut is now
"fuzzy"?)

~~~
paulgb
I commend you for your firm sense of ethics, but what exactly are you saying
is unethical?

For example, once in a while I will come across a problem that I know I have
solved before, so I will refer to code I had previously written for someone
else to remind myself of how I first solved it. I don't see any ethical
dilemma in this.

~~~
edw519
Let's see if I have this right. Someone paid you to provide them with
something for competitive purposes (if it's business, why else?). Now you're
using their IP to provide someone else (who may be their competitor) with
something for competitive purposes. It's NOT up to you to determine who is
competing with whom, how important someone's IP is to them. or whether or not
"it's a big deal". I've seen multi-million dollar deals terminated and careers
sidetracked when there was even a hint of impropriety in the air. DO NOT
UNDERESTIMATE how important most business people feel about this issue.

Of course, no one owns what's in your brain, but that's all you own. Move on.

~~~
paulgb
Again, I respect your sense of ethics and I think the world would be a better
place if everyone paid half as much attention to ethics as you do.

That said, I still think that there are occasions where referring to past code
is entirely ethical.

Say for example I forgot the mod_rewrite flag to do what I need, but I used
the same flag for a client in the past and I still have a copy on my server.
Instead of Googling around for it, which might take a couple minutes, I could
look at the copy from before in a matter of seconds. That is the kind of thing
I would do, and I certainly am not violating anyone's IP or copying any code.
Would you still say this is unethical?

~~~
edw519
I don't want to debate fine points of ethics (I know, too late), but I thought
I'd share a little more background, and then shut up. OK?

Believe me, I'm not holier than thou - you should hear me in traffic. But I
really think that this is a black and white issue. I don't see any difference
between illegal downloading and walking out of Walgreen's with a CD in your
pocket. Or putting that extra chicken leg from the buffet into your purse.
"They'd just have to throw it away, anyway." I don't care. Right is right and
wrong is wrong.

I don't ever want anyone to get the impression I'd employ situational ethics
in business (or anywhere else, either). And I do not want to knowingly conduct
business with anyone that does. It's simply not worth it, period.

I once had a partner that drew the ethical line where it was most convenient
for him. First, he copied software from one account to another. Then, he went
through a client's employee's drawers looking for something to "save us a lot
of time". Before I realized it, he was making back door deals with clients and
vendors because he "didn't think I'd mind; it was money I'd wouldn't have ever
seen anyway."

I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone progresses down that path, or that
reusing tidbits of code is the same as murder. It's just that when it's time
to draw an ethical line in the sand, my position is clear and firm.

Just a few antecdotes to give you an idea of how strongly some business people
feel about this issue:

\- An acquintance of mine was earning $150 per hour advising a Fortune 1000
company which multi-million dollar enterprise package to buy. As an aside, he
brought in a buddy to sell printers to his client and split the profit. He was
immediately fired and black-balled. The CEO's reasoning was, "I would have
never known if we made the right decision."

\- A vendor was presenting their software package to my client. They said, "We
already know your industry. In fact, we sold a system to XYZ Company." My
client immediately dismissed the vendor. He later said, "That's all I need.
For one of his programmers to accidently say what I'm doing to an XYZ employee
over coffee."

\- My client went bankrupt. Their assets (including all IP) were acquired by a
third party in the settlement. Imagine their surprise when they had to compete
with my client's ex-employee who set himself up in a software maintenance
business at 1/2 industry rates. How did he know who to call on and what
software they had? The case is still in litigation, but that guy's name will
forever be dirt in this town.

\- A contractor at one of my clients accidently left a thumb drive on a desk
he was using. It had 70,000 social security numbers on it. What were they to
think?

I could go on and on. They are some real slime balls out there. There are also
plenty of good people who make stupid decisions to save a little time because
"it doesn't make much difference anyway". How are people supposed to know the
difference?

And when it comes to technology, many business people are doubly in the dark.
Sometimes, TRUST is all they've got. It's so ridiculously easy for many of us
to earn a nice living (try digging ditches instead), why would you ever
jeapordize that over something so trivial?

~~~
paulgb
I hope it doesn't feel like a debate, I am just trying to see your side of
this because if I felt that what I was doing was unethical or even in a "grey
area", I would not be doing it. The reason I keep coming back to this thread
is not because I want to win an argument, but because I might be wrong.

I agree with you that drawing the ethical line wherever it is most convenient
is bad. In fact, I have discussed or debated ethics online a few times in the
past, and I was always in your position, saying that the issue is black and
white no matter how convenient it would be otherwise. Perhaps this is why I am
so interested in this thread, now that I am on the other end of it.

Anyway, thanks for your insight. Although I am still not convinced that
anything I did was unethical, I will think twice before looking at past work
again.

~~~
edw519
It hasn't felt like a debate. Just a real interesting topic. And, who knows,
maybe we got one of those chicken leg buffet people to thinking here - this
discussion may save someone a whole bunch of trouble years down the line.

Every once in a while, it's nice to say that which goes without saying.

~~~
juwo
well :)

which is more unethical?

the restaurant throwing away perfectly good food into the trash when there are
hungry people in poorer countries (or even a few blocks away in the same city)
who haven't eaten chicken in months because they cant afford it? (I know
people like that).

OR

the "chicken leg buffet" person. He paid full price for his buffet, only his
stomach can contain 2 legs, and he does not wish to greedily stuff himself
with 6 legs.

or what if he took 4 legs on his plate, and out of a good conscience, cannot
throw 2 uneaten legs away?

point: it is hard to judge other people.

