
Ask HN: How to credibly demonstrate self-taught skills/knowledge? - jvillal
HN - first post here.<p>I've read a lot of posts here about a Do It Yourself MBA or (more recently) teaching yourself Financial Engineering. While the real prize is the knowledge itself, how do you credibly demonstrate this self-taught knowledge/skill to potential employers? I don't imagine that I can just put it on my resume and have an employer believe me.<p>For some professions, like programming, simply working on a project or two would suffice. There exists ample opportunity for signaling.  Perhaps there's some analogue for an MBA or MFE?
======
equark
I don't quite see the appeal of "Do It Yourself" strategy. Most people in top
MBA or MFE programs are also "doing it themselves" on the side but have many
more resources to draw upon.

If you know for certain you want to be in business or finance, why not simply
attend a top school. It only takes two years, which is nothing in the grand
scheme of things. You'll make great friends, expand your network tremendously,
and learn a lot, particularly if you go in with a very clear idea of what you
want.

Of course, there is a downside -- tuition and opportunity cost. But it doesn't
sound like your opportunity cost is that high and tuition, while expensive, is
often worth it. I know plenty of people who were earning $40k pre-MBA and
$160K after. They are also doing much more interesting work. It's absolutely
essential, however, that you know exactly what type of job you want and what
is required to get it. If you want to go to McKinsey, you essentially need to
attend a top five school. Schools are definitely not worth it if you fritter
away your time or decide you don't like the career path you've chosen.

~~~
jvillal
Unfortunately, my GPA got hit pretty hard in college because of some choices I
made (attempted to double major in fairly difficult fields). While I'm
certainly confident in my ability to score well on the GMAT/GRE and perhaps
generate a couple of interesting items on my resume, I fear that my GPA would
be enough to keep me from getting in. So, this is my way of asking how to get
accredited without going to an accredited school.

~~~
equark
You have two options: try to get accredited enough to get hired directly or
try to get accredited enough to get into a feeder program. I suspect that the
latter is easier. Many good schools will give you a chance if you signal you
have your act together (i.e., by scoring well, getting good letters, have some
interesting experience, and maybe getting a few As at some local University).
I really depends on the exact job you are trying to obtain though. MFE is very
different than an MBA.

Also remember to be patient. You may need to apply multiple times, for
instance, or spend a year at a local university taking course work to prove
you are capable. But don't forget that 40-65 is a 25 year career, optimize
that.

------
sachinag
DIY MFE: pretty easy, have a 12 month track record on Interactive Brokers.

DIY MBA: most jobs are through referrals, so this is pretty hard. A blog could
help, but you could also look like a dilettante if you don't have a track
record. The only way to get into, say, McKinsey is through referrals or formal
on-campus interviewing.

~~~
jvillal
So lets say I go on IB, make a kickass ROI after 12 months, and decide I want
to be gainfully employed in that industry. Do I just put it on my resume? Do I
write a blog talking about my success? Or, at the end of the day, will I need
people to still vouch for me?

For the DIY MBA, I completely agree. No easy way to signal that you have the
requisite skills yourself.

------
jakarta
Here is how I did it:

So in school I majored in poli-sci but taught myself
finance/accounting/investing by going to the library and reading books.

When I graduated from college (about a year ago) my ultimate goal was to land
a job at a hedge fund. But it was pretty tough because hedge fund jobs are
hard to land right out of school. Academically I was unimpressive, and I went
to a state school.

Along the way (starting when I was a jr in college) I ran an investment blog
where I posted ideas and commentary. I really pushed to put up original
content and try to build myself into a brand for my niche in investing. This
worked out well - After about a year of doing it I managed to get posts linked
to by the NYT Dealbook, WSJ and FT blogs.

The blog helped in two ways. I was able to make a lot of contacts with people
who were already in the field, and then with those contacts I was able to come
to them for advice. So I would send then investment write ups I was working on
to get their take on how to improve my process and make my process more
professional. In turn, they shared a lot of professional resources with me.
The other way is that it just helped get my name out there, people would use
google, find my posts, and e-mail me. I tried to be really approachable to my
readers, I was always willing to chat with them on the phone.

Once I got my investment process down, I applied to two investment clubs that
are pretty tough to get into -- it is entirely based on an investment idea you
submit in your application. I got into both which was really helpful in
conveying my investment analysis skills.

Then, I took an unpaid internship with a small fund manager in my home town (I
live in the south) who I admired. I got a meeting with him by sending a
package to his house with a couple of investment ideas and a letter which
described why I wanted to work for him. This was a pretty hands off
internship, but it helped again in allowing me to get the criticism I needed
to improve. He would assign me a company/industry to look at and in 2 weeks we
would meet up and discuss my work for a few hours. I did this for 6 months.

Eventually, I started getting e-mails from people wanting to interview me for
jobs. I don't know what quite happened, but something clicked. I never
advertised that I was looking for a job, but on my blog I did say that I
recently graduated from my university.

In the summer, a portfolio manager at a fund that I never dreamed of being
able to work for (most of their employees come straight from Ivy League
schools with plenty of work experience, the firm's founder is pretty legendary
and widely read) reached out to me to talk. I thought it was just a networking
call, but at the end of our conversation he made the offer to fly me out for
interviews.

I flew out twice and managed to do well in both rounds. So now I am here in a
place that gets a lot of snow, working for a fund that I absolutely love.

When I look back on it I think the keys were really figuring out a way to
stand out from the crowd (my blog) and then reaching out to professionals in
the field to help bridge the gap from what I learned by reading books and what
they learned from their jobs. I had a lot of luck in meeting good helpful
people that were much more intelligent than me.

~~~
tkahn6
This is a very inspiring story. Thanks for sharing.

Would you mind writing a blog post explaining how you got started? You
mentioned you went to the library and read books. Which books? Which ones did
you start with? What knowledge did you have going in and what are some of the
basics that you had to learn and then where did you go from there?

~~~
jakarta
I do value investing, to learn that you really have to read a combination of
theoretical (books about value investing) and practical (accounting, finance,
investment valuation, excel modeling, books about different industries).

After that you need to put the two together and start valuing businesses. If
you keep at it eventually you will pick up the right skills. Most people just
read about the theory and dont focus enough on the practical stuff. Their
analyses tend to be sub-par and unprofessional.

I spent a lot of time reverse engineering old investments by famous people or
recent investments by hedge funds.

There was never one book that helped. I read a ton and tried to pick the best
ideas from all of them. At school I regularly had about 10-12 books checked
out in my name and would jump around, reading what really interested me.

The other day the founder of our fund took me out to lunch, he mentioned that
he thinks Keynes offers the best introduction to the theory aspect of
investing in Chapter 12 of his book General Theory of Employment Interest and
Money. You can read about it here:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_beauty_contest>

------
wybo
Becoming a successful blogger on it? Writing and publishing a book on it?
Showing your skills while volunteering for an NGO / organisation that
needs/validates your skills? Offering to work for somebody for free for a
while? Just some ideas.

(disclaimer, I'm taking the university route myself)

------
zdw
1\. Do something wildly impressive.

2\. Generate a corpus of quality output that is public and can attract
eyeballs.

3\. Get someone to believe in you, and use that to launch yourself further.

~~~
darkxanthos
Exactly my current path. Find a problem, solve, then get people to pay for it.
Do that enough times and you're bound to eventually create something very
valuable.

------
glen
You are not alone! Indeed, I think this is a key issue for all of us to
address as globalization becomes more and more of a reality and degrees become
less credible predictors of competency. Basically, we think we need a sort of
reputation system that scales globally as a solution to this problem. Here are
the key components we launched:

-CV/Resume display

-Recommendations from trusted others

-Work display (examples that illustrate your capabilities)

-Transcript that highlights courses completed.

-Reputation points (modeled after HN)

We see this as a crucial element to the future of education and believe that
it will become significantly more important as education becomes increasingly
open and free. We've posted on it here:
[http://ocwconsortium.org/community/blog/2010/09/15/certifica...](http://ocwconsortium.org/community/blog/2010/09/15/certification-
with-oer-considerations-and-examples/). You can also see a demo of our
solution here: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7LbSnAG-5s>

------
doorhammer
My impression with masters level coursework is that a lot of the benefit comes
from the contacts and networking you can do during the process.

I have a friend who worked with blockbuster while he got a degree in
journalism. A year after he finished his degree, he was a regional manager
with the company, and being primed to move up again. He started small, and
demonstrated a natural ability to handle employees, increase productivity,
meet and exceed long-term goals, and otherwise improve the situation of
anything he touched in the company.

Perhaps, if you really believe in the practical applicability of the mba
coursework, you could try to get a lower-level job while you teach yourself
the theory and constantly try to apply it to your position in order to
demonstrate practical skill? Eventually you still might need the diploma on
your wall, but at a certain point you might be able to get your employer to
pay for part of it. I'm not sure how common that is, though

Just a few thoughts

------
kleinsch
I don't know much about Financial Engineering, but most business fields value
experience the most, with degrees being a way to get your foot in the door.
Startups are much more flexible, and probably provide a better opportunity for
someone who's self taught. I don't think you're going to get very far in GE or
McKinsey with a Do It Yourself MBA.

If you're trying to get in on the startup scene, launching a business of some
sort, even if it fails, will give you experience that other people will
probably find valuable. If you've already been through the process of
incorporating a business, dealing with lawyers and accountants, handling
marketing on a small budget, etc, I'd think you'd be in pretty competitive
position.

------
genieyclo
As a corollary, can anyone list people have been successful without going
through the normal establishment method of formal schooling and certification?
It seems most of these people saying that education is in a state of
revolution and how you can learn from OCW and other online resources instead
of from Podunk U or Podunk HS haven't actually taken this path themselves...

~~~
collint
I'll let you know when I'm done.

So far, as a high school drop-out I've figured out how to code, and I can say
the years I have had in the field have given me a competitive edge on my
peers. ( in terms of qualifications and hourly rate )

But I'm about as happy as an employee as I was being a student. I can do
better for myself.

Still have some things I want to learn. I'm focused now on building my own
business. As of late the web has become a great resource to learn about this.
Things like the LAN startup movement and the recent surge in interest in the
four steps to the epiphany have been wonderful.

I'll let you know how it goes when I'm done.

------
joelhooks
I think this misses some of the point of the exercise, which isn't necessarily
to impress an employer with your excellent resume. There is nothing wrong with
building a resume and working a job, but being autodidactic can open doors
beyond the typical work-a-job strategy.

~~~
jvillal
Sorry, I suppose I should have clarified this more - I believe that learning
is the goal in and of itself. However, when attempting to jump fields there is
a very real barriers-to-entry problem caused by a lack of formal
accreditation. I'm wondering how people can overcome that.

------
danohuiginn
In many areas, there are exams you can take without needing to do an entire
course.

I'd recommend this with a foreign language, or with something else that's
easily testable. With an MBA? I second wybo's suggestion of blogging about it,
or writing some related articles elsewhere.

------
rbxbx
The same way you demonstrate knowledge gleaned from an institution, or
anywhere, really.

~~~
thebigredjay
I don't think a framed piece of paper that says "I graduated from The School
of Me!" will get anyone anywhere.

------
petercooper
Write a book and get solid reviews.

------
lkozma
"Become so good they can't ignore you."

etc. etc.

~~~
vinutheraj
\-- Steve Martin.

------
tastybites
I wouldn't be able to speak about MFE, but in my experience people with 'real'
MBAs respect and admire anyone who has built a successful business of any kind
or size. Many times the people doing the hiring at investment banks, money
management firms, and management consulting firms look for that in lieu of
having the actual degree.

I have a sneaking suspicion that deep down they know the degree itself is kind
of bullshit anyway, and want to work with people who actually have run
businesses.

The real question is - armed with the equivalent knowledge of an MBA of MFE,
why would you want to work for a large firm? That problem is already solved -
just go get a Masters.

