
Immigration will solve the talent war in the valley - rvivek
http://rvivek.com/immigration/
======
shalmanese
"[2] It’s not true for designers. I don’t know why, but the odds of finding a
good one here is much higher than India."

Design is more about culture than engineering.

Design is a more hands on skill that requires contextual learning.

Design requires creativity better fostered by a Western education system than
an Eastern one.

Design draws on a legacy of history and the history of the East is different
from the history of the West.

Design requires a sense of humor and humor is different in every country.

~~~
pclark
This description of design ("Design") is fantastically pretentious. You must
be a designer! :)

~~~
shalmanese
This description of description of design is fantastically pretentious. You
must be British :)

------
zinssmeister
"...fears that immigrants are going to eat away local jobs. This is SO wrong."
I am not sure you successfully explained why you think they are wrong. I'm an
immigrant from Europe and in my opinion it is easy math. There is 1 job and if
you fill it it's gone. So you can either fill it with Americans or an
immigrant (like me). It's kinda foolish to think all you have to do is open
the gates and expect all these foreigners to come in and build companies that
hire more Americans. But maybe I'm missing something?!

~~~
udit99
> It's kinda foolish to think all you have to do is open the gates and expect
> all these foreigners to come in and build companies that hire more
> Americans.

According to a paper titled "Silicon Valley's New Immigrant
Enterpreneurs)"[1], Indian and Chinese enterpreneurs were responsible for 24%
of the technology businesses started between 1980 and 1988. So the idea is
definitely backed by statistical evidence.

Besides, if there are qualified Americans who can fill these jobs already, why
exactly do we have a talent shortage in tech?

[1]<http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_699ASR.pdf>

~~~
rada
Your 24% number is grossly misleading. Quoting your source:

 _[...] Estimate of ethnic entrepreneurship in Silicon Valley was obtained by
identifying all businesses with CEOs having Chinese and Indian surnames in a
Dun & Bradstreet database of technology firms started since 1980. According to
this count, close to one-quarter (24 percent) of Silicon Valley’s technology
firms in 1998 had Chinese or Indian executives._

Technology company executives are salaried employees - even at C-level, they
do not create tech jobs any more than the HR department. Moreover, it's a
well-known fact that C-level executives rarely come from founders (example:
[http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/29/why-startup-
fou...](http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/29/why-startup-founders-can-
make-solid-ceos/)). Not to mention that an ethnically Indian/Chinese person is
not the same as an immigrant from India/China.

 _If there are qualified Americans who can fill these jobs already, why
exactly do we have a talent shortage in tech?_

Because "we" don't pay enough? Because "we" won't look at anyone over 35?
Because "we" demand a statistically improbable combination of skills plus
open-source experience plus hobby projects? Because "we" equate talent with
blogging? The list goes on and on.

(FWIW, I am an immigrant).

------
gergles
The point of H-1bs is to depress the prices of labor for any given job. (Econ
101: Increase supply, reduce cost.)

So, no, I'm not really interested in increasing the supply of skilled labor
any further and driving prices for my labor any lower. The "talent war" is
_good_ for everyone with skills that works in the Valley. Feature, not a bug.

~~~
potatolicious
You presume there is an undercurrent of malevolence to this when there isn't.

If we decreased the supply of programmers to 1 said programmer would be making
a shitload of money - but that is not good for the general population, nor the
economy.

Similarly, the restriction of the oil supply will drive up cost, drive down
usage, and force the economy to grind to an ugly halt.

Wage depression, especially in an environment where wages are already
remarkably elevated, enables further economic activity (i.e., software
businesses with cost structures that prevent paying $250K+ an engineer can now
exist and create wealth).

And let's be honest, as a single programmer making 4.5x the median _household_
American income, our wages are plenty elevated.

~~~
geebee
4.5 the median would be somewhere around $225,000. That would be a very high
salary for a developer, far above the median.

I also don't think that comparing to the median US household makes much sense.
It would make more sense to compare salaries with other highly skilled and
educated workers in very high cost areas.

It's sobering to enter the "elevated" salaries of software developers into a
housing affordability calculator and search San Francisco or the peninsula for
what you could buy at that price. Most households are dual income now, which
does get you in the range of that 4.5x household income you mentioned earlier.
At this point, you're into pleasant, middle class areas.

At this point, I guess it's just a matter of opinion. I think that when it's a
stretch for two highly educated workers to afford a fairly ordinary house in a
decent if unfashionable part of town, salaries aren't elevated to the point
where I find claims of a crucial shortage credible. If that's what employers
want to pay, that's fine, but I see no reason for special government programs
designed to increase the size of this workforce - it would seem to me that it
is responding rationally to market signals.

------
nostromo
One strategy most startups miss is the NAFTA TN-1 "visa" for Canadian and
Mexican citizens (I use quotes because it's not really a visa apparently).

We hired a Canadian employee using this status and there really is very little
paperwork. He needed a letter describing his work (which must put him in an
acceptable bucket) which he presented at the US/Canada border and an hour or
so later he was in. It has to be renewed every three years, but can be renewed
indefinitely.

Waterloo puts out great engineers -- engineers with fewer options with the
implosion of RIM. So, look north!

~~~
rapind
Are you sure about that? I'm a Canuck and have worked in the US under a TN-1 a
few times, and I had to renew it every year, and initially my sponsoring
company had to prove they had been looking to fill the position locally for a
certain amount of time without any luck (fairly easy to do with a classified
ad, etc.).

Also, only certain occupations qualify at any given time.

~~~
nostromo
It was upped from 1 to 3 years. You can read more here:
[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN_status#Canadian_citizens_i...](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN_status#Canadian_citizens_in_the_USA)

~~~
rapind
Very good to know (and wow). Thanks.

------
polyfractal
This just in: you can be a quality programmer even if you don't live in the
Valley.

That said, I imagine H-1b paperwork is dreadful to deal with. A lot of smaller
companies may choose to ignore international candidates simply because they
don't want to deal with the paperwork

~~~
stock_toaster
I wonder why more companies don't open development offices in other areas of
the country (or even the state!), if they are having such a hard time hiring
in the valley.

~~~
hnwh
They have this inertia (or fear?) against working remotely.. which is ironic
for internet based tech companies..

------
wavesounds
I've never understood this so called 'talent war' There's millions of people
unemployed in this country, why not find which ones of them know basic skills
like math and science and train them in house to write python or java or
whatever? Or if your companies to lazy to train people then pay high enough
salaries so these people go train themselves. I think its fine to bring in a
few extra smart immigrants to provide a different perspective but lets be
reasonable, ordinary Americans built this country and they're the reason
Silicon Valley exists in this country and not someplace else. If there's a
lack of talent then I think CEOs should reinvest in ordinary Americans and not
take these shortcuts. You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013
if you started now.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"There's millions of people unemployed in this country, why not find which
> ones of them know basic skills like math and science and train them in house
> to write python or java or whatever?"_

Because the lead time to go from "has basic math and logic skills" to
"competent programmer" is on the order of years, if not over a decade.

Do _you_ want to put someone on your payroll for years before you see one tiny
iota of productivity out of them? Or worse, have them be a _negative_ drain on
your productivity?

> _"but lets be reasonable, ordinary Americans built this country and they're
> the reason Silicon Valley exists in this country and not someplace else"_

This isn't true. The US has been extremely reliant on skilled immigration as
its power base throughout the 20th century. Immigrants are over-represented in
academia as well as all corners of basic research, they are also over-
represented in the industries that spawned Silicon Valley (i.e., the defense
and aerospace R&D that gave birth to both the funding, cultural, and
educational foundation that birthed the semiconductor industry, followed by
the software industry).

> _"You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013 if you started
> now."_

Then do it. I challenge you. Starting today, from someone with the proper high
school level education but no relevant college education (i.e., no STEM
degree), develop someone into a competent programmer capable of writing
production-ready code by the end of October 2013.

Put your money where your mouth is.

~~~
randomdata
I got my first programming job in high school after about a year of learning
how to do the job. I certainly wasn't the world's best programmer, and have
improved significantly over the years, but I still was able to get the job
done.

The problem, as highlighted by your post, is that companies only want to hire
the best of the best. I understand why, but it sets us up with a situation
where even those who know how to program (poorly) cannot find work,
exacerbating the talent shortages.

------
kops
As an Indian, I am actually pretty happy that not all of our best engineers
can leave the country even if they wanted to.

What makes you think that America deserves/needs a good engineer more than
India itself?

Disclaimer: I am not in India right now. But having been educated practically
for free in a Govt. college, I hope I will be able to repay some of my dues
soon. At the very least Govt of India, should be able to tax the runaways like
me.

~~~
vijaygj
I think it's even better if someone comes to the US, gets some exposure, learn
many soft skills and then go back to India, instead of not coming here at all.

~~~
kops
I won't deny the value of exposure. But I think soft skills and a lot of other
things are over hyped. Some of the best engineers I know can't put together a
sentence in English.

I can't speak for how it is in US because I haven't been there. But I really
can't think of anything that can be done only in valley but not in India. But
yeah again, I can't be so sure, because I have seen the things only from one
side.

~~~
vijaygj
How about networking? e.g. meetup.com. I found very good speakers giving talks
in my area of interest.

About soft skills, I felt considerable writing efforts are required here as
part of the normal master's degree. I am doing my master's degree in CS here.
Even if I am writing a simple report on some project I spend extra hours to
think from the reader's perspective. That builds up writing skills. You get
constructive feedback if you present something. That builds up the
presentation skills. May be this is a personal experience.

I also felt that you start appreciating positive things about your country
more but this experience may not be specific to US.

------
fiatmoney
Data on who is using the H1B program and how much they're paying is available
here.

<http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/quarterlydata.cfm>

There seems to be a more-processed version here.

<http://www.h1bwage.com/>

"Talented hacker" does not necessarily equal "median H1B recipient".

------
goatforce5
A reminder to my fellow Australians that E-3 visas are relatively easy to get:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa>

------
RealGeek
The problem with H1-B is not the limit; the main problem is its abuse. Indian
body shops like TCS, Infosys, and Wipro etc. continue to abuse H1-B visas.
These companies work like a huge recruitment and immigration agency.

There are thousands of employees of these companies sitting idle in India with
a H1-B visa in hand. They won’t go to work in US anytime soon because their
Indian employer doesn’t need them move to US. These companies blindly apply
for thousands of visas even when they don’t need it, just in case they get a
new client.

These body shops waste most of the H1-B quota and create a block for genuine
recruits by companies like Google, Apple and Microsoft.

The worst offenders are the downright fraudulent organizations like
<http://www.ebsolutionsinc.com> . Does it look like a company who needs to
import thousands of IT workers every year? This company alone accounts of
thousands of H1-B visas every year, and there are thousands of shell companies
like these. These companies are not only abusing the system, but what they are
doing is downright illegal.

This is how they work:

They hold immigration seminars all over India and assure people a job in US
and H1-B visa. They recruit thousands of candidates in India and charge them a
fee of $8,000 to $20,000 upfront. These candidates are not only engineers;
they are IT workers (who can’t code), teachers, accountants and nurses. Most
of these candidates are not qualified enough, many have fake degrees and most
can’t speak even speak English.

Their visas are sponsored by their shell recruitment agencies in US (supported
with fake documents). These candidates do not even have a real job offer yet;
the recruitment agency produces a fake job offer and keeps them on their own
payroll. Upon approval of H1-B visa, these candidates arrive in US with no
clue about what comes next. Their recruiters throw them in dorms with
miserable living conditions. The recruitment agency trains them some English
and Interview 101 and arranges several interviews in US companies.

The American companies contract these workers from the recruitment agents,
usually at 50% of the market salary. These workers start working for the
American corporations, but they stay on the payroll of their recruiters. Their
recruitment agents usually take a cut of 30%-50% from their salary every
month.

[Edit]

One of my friend runs a body shop in US and imports around 400 workers every
year.

Word 'camps' changed to 'dorms'.

Related links:

<http://em.gmnews.com/news/2008-06-18/front_page/008.html>

[http://bhartiads.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Medical-
Ou...](http://bhartiads.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Medical-Outsourcing-
Solutions-Best-Opportunity-For-Physiotherapist-To-Secure-Job-In-USA-Apply-
Today-Mumbai.png)

~~~
winter_blue
This is very interesting. I did not know situation as dire as you described.
But could you back up your claims with some sources?

------
tlogan
I think immigration will not help - but I would like to make H1-B more
liberal.

I have friends running startups in other parts of the world (India, Romania,
...), and it seems there is talent war everywhere. Yes there is a lot of
mediocre programmers around but talent is very sparse.

------
gdilla
Another way to look at it, skilled immigration gets the US educated workers
subsidized by foreign tax payers. If they line up a job, they step foot on US
soil being a tax payer, in both sales tax and income tax. A net benefit to the
US.

------
samstave
Whats it going to do for the cost of living, though? The valley's housing is
WAY too expensive - and having an influx of more engineers/talent is not going
to make the cost or quality of life here any better.

------
ChuckMcM
The h-1b paperwork is dreadful. I asked Tom Campbell once if he would support
pushing legislation to create an h1-ht (high tech) visa, which there are
unlimited quantities of and restrict your residency and ability to work to
Washington/Oregon/California (the west coast).

The half serious/half not comment came after he was describing the variety of
anti-immigration lobbies in Washington with big contingents from the
'heartland' trying to keep foreigners out.

~~~
anigbrowl
_the variety of anti-immigration lobbies in Washington_

The sad part is there's really only one, organized into about 20 different
lobbying groups but (mostly) centrally funded from the estate of a dead multi-
millionaire.

------
tocomment
Is doing a start-up really risk free like he says? How you make sure you get
aqui-hired if you fail?

~~~
rvivek
Let's say you're a group of 3 ex-facebookers; don't you think you can easily
find a ton of companies in the valley that'll pick up for talent? Is it going
to be worth $3M is debatable but surely there's a good chance that it'll be a
pretty sweet deal.

~~~
tocomment
So you have to live in the valley?

------
123123m12m
it's something that engineers/technical people never ever understand. You can
not classify people on some db just to do something not done.

------
anusinha
FYI the link to interviewstreet.com is not working.

~~~
rvivek
Fixed. Thanks

