

Tools never die ... never - justnearme
http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2011/02/01/133188723/tools-never-die-waddaya-mean-never?sc=fb&cc=fp

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Detrus
Ballista, scorpio exist only in re-enactments and are far from the
functionality of the originals. The originals required human hair, it was the
springiest, had to be processed very particularly and it's very labor
intensive to recreate, so re-enactors have not. Their historical range is ~400
meters, replicas do ~150.

Complicated specialized tech made in large urban populations is the place to
look. Many things went extinct only to be reinvented once large urban
populations arose again. But sometimes there was alternative technology,
people did not remake the ballista because there were guns by the time urban
populations bounced back in Europe.

Greek fire, Roman concrete, Egyptian concrete lost and reinvented. Damascus
steel - exact process lost, Japanese made something similar. Egyptian block
built ships are lost [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/building-pharaohs-
ship....](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/building-pharaohs-ship.html)
but ships for the same purpose were reinvented and drastically better. We
don't use large wooden ships today, except for re-enactments. Siege towers not
used, city walls not built, but we have tanks and trenches.

So it depends on how you categorize it. Functionality of tools remains, but
some specifics are drastically different, so it gets subjective.

~~~
stcredzero
_Ballista, scorpio exist only in re-enactments and are far from the
functionality of the originals...Their historical range is ~400 meters,
replicas do ~150._

Being gimped is not exactly "going extinct."

 _Damascus steel - exact process lost_

There is now a compelling claim for having found the process again.

 _Functionality of tools remains, but some specifics are drastically
different, so it gets subjective._

That's the thing. It's hard for _functionality_ or the need for it to
disappear. And where it's supplanted by superior functionality, there's still
reenactment. There is probably technology that has disappeared, but only in
the case where we've _completely lost all mentions or records of it._ That's
the only way something can get beyond the reach of the re-enactors. However,
by the time something's gotten that obscure, it's been too thoroughly
forgotten to be counted.

In other words, we can't find lost technology, because technology is really
informational in essence, and if it's lost it's lost from anyone's
consciousness or any known record _by definition._

------
zacharycohn
I think the more interesting discussion (and where I hopped this was going)
was that tools never die, they just evolve.

For all of his examples he was able to come up with some trivial example of
some near-extinct culture in some very small part of the world using them. But
for instance the chariot wheel EVOLVED into the automobile wheel, hammers
evolved into jackhammers and hammerdrills (and just plain hammers), brass
helmets into motorcycle helmets.

I think finding a tool that is no longer used and has no "children" would be
the truly interesting find. If a tool is used to serve a purpose and solve a
problem, are there any categories of problems that we simply don't run into
anymore?

And for the people talking about parts for '87 chevy's and IDEs or dead
software projects, I think you're taking his point far too literally.

~~~
derleth
> I think finding a tool that is no longer used and has no "children" would be
> the truly interesting find.

I'd look at tools used for gas lamps.

Candles are still legitimately used for emergency purposes, but without a gas
distribution network using gas lamps is pretty much impossible, given that
it's no longer reasonable to keep gas fixtures around as long as electricity
works reasonably reliably.

Frankly, gas lamps are the worst of both worlds when compared to candles and
electric lighting: They're reliant on complex infrastructure, even if you
somehow have your own gas supply, and they're still based on the toxic and
fire-hazard-prone technology of burning flammable things. When you factor in
the risk of gas leaks, they're actually worse than candles.

~~~
ars
In Israel some Jews use gas lamps for lighting on the Sabbath because the
electric grid is run by non-religious Jews in violation of the Sabbath, and
they don't want to benefit from that. (Before you ask: There is no central gas
distribution network in Israel because of the risk of war, so all houses have
individual tanks.)

The requirement to avoid the electric grid is disputed, and most religious
Jews don't, but some do.

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genieyclo
One I remember being fascinated about from Latin class: the Antikythera
Mechanism[1].

EDIT: Others include Roman cement, which was _masterfully_ produced by them.
It's the reason so many of their structures and amazingly engineered roads are
still around today, millenia later.

[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism>

~~~
steveklabnik
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPVCJjTNgk>

------
genieyclo
Seems lots of ancient medicines and herbal plants with special effects were
lost like Silphium[1] and Nepenthe[2].

Who knows what other amazing things perished with the Library of
Alexandria[3], House of Wisdom in Baghdad[4], Library of Pergamum[5], and
Imperial Library of Constantinople[6]?

[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium> [2]:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepenthe> [3]:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria> [4]:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom> [5]:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Pergamum> [6]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Library_of_Constantino...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Library_of_Constantinople)

------
showerst
My understanding is that we can't rebuild a certain gel that's used in some
older nuclear weapons, because we've lost all of the formulas, all of the
production processes, and the handful of people who had both the scientific
understanding of the stuff and the clearance.

Has anyone else heard this story, and can they back it up with a real source?

~~~
msbarnett
You're thinking of FOGBANK[1], which they apparently had to reverse-engineer
the manufacturing process for after, essentially, losing the any documentation
of how to make it.

On the subject of the question in the article itself, it seems trivial to come
up with technologies that have stopped being made: semaphore towers, metric
clocks, lisp machines, and slide rules spring to mind.

[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOGBANK>

~~~
arst
Slide rules are still made
([http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-
alias%3Dap...](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-
alias%3Daps&field-keywords=slide+rule&x=0&y=0))

------
3pt14159
The best bet would probably be a tool used in a now dead religion. For
example, a tool specifically design to force a live fish down the throat of a
duck to appease kurlog, god of pond boats.

~~~
ars
Maybe the tools Egyptians used to remove internal organs before embalming?

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jsulak
Greek fire (unless you want to count napalm as the same thing).

~~~
makmanalp
As well as serpentines and such ancient war machines.

~~~
shkb
Damascus and bulat steel too. Lots of weapons mentioned here...

------
bobds
Damascus steel.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel>

I'm sure there's tons of tools that are extinct and no surviving record of
them exists, so we don't know about them. In that sense, you could say it's
all a matter of documentation. If something doesn't exist at a given moment
but is documented, it's likely that it will be made again at some point.

------
dy9
I would have gone for something big and expensive, like, say, the lunar
module. Is anyone making a new lunar module or a hydrogen dirigible these
days?

------
ars
I was going to suggest the physicians head mirror (the one with a hole),
except <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_mirror> says "They are still
routinely used by otolaryngologists in the clinical setting, particularly for
examination and procedures involving the oral cavity."

------
Jun8
"I tried ... Paleolithic hammers (still being made) ...". OK this is too good
to be true. I googled and it IS available, for $230:
[http://www.stoneageartifacts.com/html/Artifact-
Hand%20Axes.h...](http://www.stoneageartifacts.com/html/Artifact-
Hand%20Axes.html). It is mind boggling who buys these things.

------
chwahoo
I'm currently reading Kevin Kelley's book and am enjoying it, but I find his
"technology NEVER dies" conjecture mostly uninteresting. I guess it's a strong
enough statement that it begs for disproof, but I haven't heard any
interesting conclusions that rely on it.

------
ladon86
OK guys, this smells like a challenge. Can anyone think of a tool which has
been made extinct?

~~~
Charuru
I wrote an IDE the other day that nobody uses. Does that count?

~~~
sammcd
Not sure why people are voting you down. I've written quite a few tools for
coding that have gone unused, and its exactly where my mind went too.

------
ars
How about the tool used to weld a metal link around a prisoner or slave's
ankle?

I can't imagine anyone still knows how to do that. (But I'm semi expecting to
be proved wrong.)

~~~
groby_b
I'm willing to bet money that you will find members of the BDSM community who
will know the exact process and are more than willing to hook you up. (So to
speak ;)

------
conover
I heard this on the radio on the way to work this morning. The obvious thing
that came to mind was the technology used to build the pyramids.

------
Charuru
There is a bit of a survivor bias in this challenge, as the tools that are no
longer being made corresponds well to tools which nobody remembers.

------
maeon3
The problem here is not asking a clear question. There are millions or
billions of tools that are no longer being built today. I made one just now as
I was writing this post, it will never be built again.

Yes it is a cute conclusion, it outlines an interesting social phenomenon. But
'Tools never die' is not correct.

Also, Fred's steam engine is no longer built, it was unique, if you show me
steam engines, it is not Fred's steam engine.

------
derleth
[http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/quackcures/radiumemanator...](http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/quackcures/radiumemanator.htm)

I give you the radium emanator, a device used to infuse water with the healthy
radiation from radium. From the link, "It appears to have been made from
cement mixed with uranium ore."

Needless to say, it was never a good idea, and the use of this tool died out
with the end of the radium fad and, presumably, more than a few of the fad's
adherents.

I will be very surprised if _anyone_ was still making this or something to do
the same thing.

~~~
pontifier
I'm sure that along those same lines there are products that have been
discontinued because the long term effects of their use overwhelms the actual
benefits. DDT, lead based paint, and asbestos ceiling tiles come to mind.

------
derleth
Williams-Kilburn tubes, which were CRTs with high-persistence phosphor used as
memory and display devices beginning in the 1940s. The 'high-persistence'
means W-K tubes are the exact _opposite_ of where CRT technology stands today:
They're useless for TVs and computer monitors, because the phosphor stays lit
too long. However, that's what you want if you're using the phosphor to store
bits of data in a vacuum tube computer, or to display the contents of memory
in that computer.

Plenty of people are making CRTs today. I doubt anyone is making CRTs that
would be useful W-K tubes.

(Another guess might be core memory but, knowing NASA and some of IBM's
customers, I have a suspicion someone still has real uses for a few hundred
kilobytes of core.)

[as originally posted by me elsewhere]

