
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, by Eliezer Yudkowsky - robertk
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality??
======
smanek
It sounds crazy, but as someone who reads _a lot_ of fiction (and very little
fan fiction, because most of it's crap), I sincerely think this is one of the
best things I've read in years. I'd personally rank it up with Asimov or
Heinlein at their best.

If you're the kind of person, upon discovering a 'wizarding world' would:

\- Look into establishing arbitrage between the wizards' fixed ratio of
Gold/Silver currency and the muggles' variable ratio

-Try to discover the underlying laws and mechanics of magic

-Use a time machine to prove/disprove P == NP

Read this Book!

~~~
gxti
If you like his writing, see also "Three Worlds Collide":

<http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/>

~~~
araneae
I love HP and the Methods of Rationality, and absolutely hated "Three Worlds
Collide" because

a)It was very contrived, and

b)Rape will never be legal, sorry, unless it's an anti-feminist society
similar to some Arab countries, which that society wasn't. I know it's just
one little thing, but that completely killed the suspension of disbelief for
me.

~~~
AngryParsley
It's contrived because the goal of the story was to get people to think about
metaethics. It's still pretty good for entertainment value though.

b) was a reference to <http://lesswrong.com/lw/xm/building_weirdtopia/>

There was some discussion of this when the chapter was posted. The rape idea
was really weird, but it made more sense after reading some of the discussion:

[http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/q...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/qso?c=1)
[http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/q...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/qt7?c=1)
[http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/q...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/qtf?c=1)

~~~
araneae
I've read the comments, and the point still stands. There's a reason that I
had never heard of a "weirdtopian" novel before. If something is outside of
the scope of what humans are capable of, it's very jarring to one's suspension
of disbelief. Just because it fits with his desire to make it weirdtopian
doesn't mean I like it any better.

~~~
derefr
But isn't the basic idea that, through genetic engineering et al, we can
_become_ a species other than our own? I can't fault a science fiction story
for showing the possible sociological consequences of scientific progress, no
matter how much I don't "like" the direction science or society is
taking—that's the whole point of science fiction, after all.

People like to have protagonists with "human" values to root for in stories—in
fact, it can be said that consuming narrative is basically how humans indulge
in pretending to believe their own far values (by identifying with characters
that act on those far values as if they were near, and then "liking" the works
of writers that cause those identifiable characters to "win" the story—or,
alternatively, that cause characters without those values to "lose", as in
tragedies.) That's the reason that any setting, no matter how fantastic (D&D,
40k, HHGTTG) still has (something that acts and thinks like) modern-day
humans. However, if you really think in Hard sci-fi terms, you begin to
realize that there's no good, probable explanation for "the future" being such
a setting without further, conscious intervention on our part to retain our
current values (see Eliezer's "Theory of Fun" sequence.)

~~~
araneae
I'm not sure it's possible to argue someone into enjoying a work of fiction.

I explained why it didn't work for me. Any work of fiction- the successful
ones, anyway- will always be about people. If they're too different of a
people (genetically engineered out of their humanness), then people simply
won't enjoy it.

There's a reason that there are virtually no popular science fiction novels
where the protagonist is an alien that has a completely different value/mating
systems to us. I got like a page into a story about an alternate history of
Earth where birds resembling jacanas (a species where the females are
behaviorally like the males of other species and v.v.) were the intelligent
species on the planet. Then I realized that no-one could ever relate to or
care about my characters. They were just _too alien._ That isn't to say there
can't be great fiction where the conflict between alien races is over that
difference, like 3 worlds, (Ender's Game comes to mind), but the point is
always _to reaffirm what it means to be human_. You just can't do that if the
humans in your book are alien.

~~~
derefr
I'm not suggesting that you should _enjoy_ it. It's not escapism; it's not
intended to pass mindlessly into your amygdala. It's meant to be a serious,
critical analysis of the consequences of doing such a thing—a _satire_ , in
other words. you're meant to come away with it with an opinion on whether or
not doing this—becoming alien in this way, having these irreconcilably
different values—is a _good thing_ or not.

...which was, oddly enough, the plot of the story itself! The protagonists
decided that the values of the Baby Eaters were a _bad thing_ ; and, likewise,
the Super Happy people decided that the values of the protagonists were a _bad
thing_. One day, our future, alien selves might decide that our current values
are a _bad thing_ , and, likewise, if we see their (potential) values as bad
enough, we might consider not allowing such a positive feedback loop toward
new values to take place at all.

------
mdemare
What I like about this novel that is not directly related to rationality, is
that Eliezer pays a lot of attention to the motivation of the "villains". Why
would anyone want to be a Death Eater? Why on earth do Malfoy or Crabbe &
Goyle act the way they do. Completely unconvincing in the original, (and
almost all villains in Hollywood movies for that matter), but in MoR they have
a convincing motivation for why they act the way they do.

This is really a pet peeve of mine - nobody thinks they're the villain, not
Hitler, not Bin Laden, not Timothy McVeigh, nobody. Comic villains and Bond
villains are just silly, impossible for me to take seriously. So writers must
give an explanation for their villains' evil acts that is distinct from
"because they're evil". Most writers don't, but Eliezer Yudkowsky does, and
it's a breath of fresh air.

~~~
MBlume
Well, he did also write [Are Your Enemies Innateley
Evil](<http://lesswrong.com/lw/i0/are_your_enemies_innately_evil/>)

------
iron_ball
Recently re-read it myself. A tip for new readers -- if you find this version
of Harry insufferable, yet the basic concept makes you keep reading, wait for
around Chapter 20, where a much-needed mentor helps him learn some self-
control.

~~~
bgutierrez
Thanks for the tip. I'm slowly reading this aloud with my wife, and she's
pretty distracted with Harry's flaws.

~~~
swombat
_she's pretty distracted with Harry's flaws_

She must have had a hell of a time with JK Rowling's version then...

------
Splines
Discussed previously on HN: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1385932>

There are some links to an ePub version if anyone's interested (I enjoyed it).

It also looks like the author regularly appends new content. I'm going to need
to re-read this!

~~~
jamie_ca
Also, some kind soul is maintaining an RSS feed for chapter updates, since
FF.net seems to be stuck in the last decade: <http://demented.no-
ip.org/~feep/rss_proxy.cgi?5782108>

------
memetichazard
The thing that I find the most interesting is that a few people on the
fanfiction groups I frequent absolutely loathe the story, and there's a
sizable group that are ambivalent to it. What I haven't seen, however, is
anyone here or on reddit criticize it in any way.

Probably because this is not really Harry Potter fanfiction - the main
character of this story is not Harry Potter, so many aspects of the story are
radically changed from canon, the author even admits to not having read some
of the books, etc. Harry is your basic self-insert in this situation.

So this isn't really fanfiction - it's original fiction set in the Harry
Potter universe, and I guess that's what makes it appeal to readers who don't
follow fanfiction, and repels some people that do.

Along similar lines is Alicorn's Luminosity[1], which replaces Bella's
character from the Twilight series with someone more rational and
introspective. Where MoR was based on Eliezer's sequences on Rationality,
Luminosity is based on Alicorn's sequence on Luminosity.

1:<http://luminous.elcenia.com/>

~~~
ugh
I’m very confused by the often very vitriolic criticisms from some avid
fanfiction fans. Is MoR violating some kind of fanfiction etiquette I as an
outsider don’t get?

Some seem to be very annoyed whenever they think MoR veers too far from canon
which I don’t understand at all. What do I care about canon as long as it
makes sense internally? Picking and choosing certain ideas from the existing
material while dropping or changing others – even radically – seems a
perfectly reasonable thing to do if executed correctly.

~~~
MBlume
A quick taxonomy of fanfic (from someone who spent way too much time in HP
fandom in college):

fill-in-the-blanks: This is a story that tells parts of the original work's
backstory. The custom is to try scrupulously to maintain canon compatibility
-- ie ensure that your work, and the original works, could be presented as a
unified whole without contradiction. Fernwithy
([http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=profile&id=50...](http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=profile&id=507))
writes beautifully in this mode, is _very_ careful about maintaining
consistency, and has only started writing stories set in the future of the
series since the 7th book closed the canon up.

The future fic: This is the sort of thing authors do because they're impatient
for the next installment of canon. They try to write the next installment
themselves. Again, consistency is considered important. Usually there's some
wish-fulfillment, not so much in terms of self-insertion, but in terms of the
author taking the story where they wished it would go, especially by pairing
two characters the author likes together.

After the
End([http://www.sugarquill.net/read.php?chapno=1&storyid=619](http://www.sugarquill.net/read.php?chapno=1&storyid=619))
and The Letters of Summer(<http://www.phoenixsong.net/fanfiction/story/53/>)
are both good examples.

Once the next installment of canon comes out, the future fic is usually
retroactively labelled AU, or alternate universe.

The single-point-of-departure AU: "For want of a nail, the horse was lost..."
-- the author picks a very specific time and place in canon in which something
goes differently, and then tells the story from there. Even here, consistency
is prized, unless you can _justify_ how the change arose from the point of
departure. I haven't read much in this mode, so I don't have any immediate
suggestions.

A strangely specific variant of the single-point-of-departure is the Peggy
Sue, in which a main character travels back in time, inhabits the body of
his/her young self, and redoes everything using their knowledge of future
events. Harry Potter and the Nightmares of Futures Past
([http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2636963/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_N...](http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2636963/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Nightmares_of_Futures_Past))
and Harry Potter and the Wastelands of Time
([http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4068153/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_W...](http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4068153/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Wastelands_of_Time))
are both examples. Peggy Susie
(<http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5731071/1/Peggy_Susie>) is a one-shot parody of
this genre by MoR's author.

The crack-fic: The author takes the story miles into left field, usually
played for laughs. How Hogwarts Became a Nudist Colony
([http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2179136/1/How_Hogwarts_Became_a_...](http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2179136/1/How_Hogwarts_Became_a_Nudist_Colony))
or Potter Puppet Pals
([http://www.potterpuppetpals.com/newppp/channels/TroubleAtHog...](http://www.potterpuppetpals.com/newppp/channels/TroubleAtHogwarts.htm))
are prime examples. No rules here but the rule of Funny.

MoR doesn't fit neatly into any of these categories, but _starts out_ sounding
a lot like it's going to be a single-point-of-departure AU (the notes at the
top of the first chapter have now been edited to specifically disclaim this).
MoR is an example of, well, taking another author's universe, using the bits
you like, and changing whatever you need to change to tell the story you want
to tell, in the manner you want to tell it. It shares this "genre" with most
comic reboots, Homer, Milton, the Bible, the brothers Grimm, Disney --
basically a huge chunk of western culture. But it still doesn't quite fit into
the set of genres commonly seen in HP fanfic.

~~~
memetichazard
Actually the initial reception of MoR from what I was was that it was a
crackfic/humor piece. The first few chapters are, after all, hilarious. And
people expected more of the same. There was quite a bit of confusion later on
when it became apparent that the story was meant to be _serious_.

~~~
MBlume
Heh, I seem to recall Eliezer saying something about how the story was going
to be played completely straight, and then out of nowhere, Harry bit his
teacher, and he realized it was going to be a humor piece.

------
carterschonwald
This is ridiculously awesome piece of fiction. If your friends are of the sort
where logic at least partially underlies their thinking and behavior more so
than it does most folks, then you will really love this.

Bewarned, it's very well written and fun(ny). You may fall out of your chair
with laughter

------
Xelaz
And _do_ read the Sequences on Less Wrong:
<http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Sequences>

------
orangecat
Highly recommended to anyone who hasn't been reading it. I'm impatiently
awaiting new chapters...there are quite a few interesting directions it can go
in after the last sequence.

------
JulianMorrison
I suspect the hardest part of plotting this story must not have been changing
Harry, but changing Voldemort. How on earth could someone capable of
challenging the advanced Harry manage to lose so thoroughly against only
Rowling canon good-guys?

~~~
iron_ball
Not sure how far you've read, but it is not at all certain that Voldemort
_wants_ to challenge Harry. Whatever his plans are for Harry, they don't
involve killing him -- at least not in the near term.

~~~
JulianMorrison
I meant challenge as in, be up to the job of opposing him. This Voldemort does
oppose Harry's _plans_ , long term, largely because he doesn't get the idea of
making the world better for everyone, he just wants out.

~~~
iron_ball
The methods Harry would employ would achieve Voldemort's aims as well, and if
Voldemort's horcruxes work as advertised, he shouldn't care too much about the
time frame.

~~~
JulianMorrison
Sure, and _Harry_ would see that. Voldemort would not. He wants a subverted
Harry on his side, but he doesn't care about rebuilding the universe to be
nice.

------
Estragon
Wow, I've read the first three chapters, and this is so good. And I have
always despised the Harry Potter books. Next time someone tells me that art
would no longer be produced unless copyright guaranteed a way to monetize it,
I'm going to point them at this masterpiece.

------
meinhimmel
Wow! I never expected to see this posted here. I'm a closet Harry Potter
fanfiction reader, and I loved this story. I think it's time to re-read this
again.. be back in a while.

------
powrtoch
Pro tip: Because of the smallish text size and full-screen layout (which gives
some of us absurdly unfriendly line lengths), I find Safari's "Reader" feature
to be indispensable in reading this fic.

~~~
RiderOfGiraffes
Or just increase your font size and use a window that's not full screen.
Ctrl-+ increases font size in Chrome, shift-WheelScrollDown in Firefox, Shift-
WheelScrollUp in Konqueror.

~~~
whimsy
Or use bookmarklets like Readability:
<http://lab.arc90.com/experiments/readability/>

~~~
mdemare
Or send it to Instapaper.

There are very few websites that I prefer reading in the original form, as
opposed to in one of the above formats. I wonder what that says about the
state of web design.

~~~
Jach
Not much, it says more about your personal preferences than it does about web
design.

------
gursikh
Someone needs to write a "Frodo Baggins and The Methods of Rationality".

------
akkartik
Wish I could find a single page to read offline.

~~~
jgershen
It doesn't always include the latest chapters immediately, but here you go:

<http://www.mediafire.com/MethodsOfRationality>

