
A Look Back at Manufacturing Linux Hardware - jseliger
https://blog.system76.com/post/612315972866637824/a-look-back-at-manufacturing#_=_
======
rumanator
The blog post reads like an attempt to finally distance themselves from the
the old reputation of being the Clevo rebranders they were.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17039414](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17039414)

 _Edit_ there is an article from Linux magazine published a few months ago
that states that system76 is still primarily a Clevo rebranded, and that they
build just a single product from their whole product line: the thelio.

[https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/System76-To-
Desig...](https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/System76-To-Design-And-
Build-Laptops-In-House)

~~~
chubs
Everyone has to start somewhere, I guess. I believe they're tackling making
their own laptops next.

~~~
harrier
It sounds like it.

> As we move into manufacturing laptops, the factory will provide an ideal
> environment for research and development. We now have the resources to
> create more accurate prototypes in-house to get an up close look at various
> materials, chassis builds, keyboards, and more, empowering us to create a
> computer fit for the incredible creators, makers, and builders of the world.

~~~
bityard
I'm trying to work out why they think manufacturing their own laptops is going
to be a profitable business. Margins on consumer hardware are razor thin even
for the big players like Dell who have the advantage of scale. So far just
being open source friendly has not been nearly enough of a market
differentiator.

That said, I wouldn't mind considering a system76 laptop for my next
workstation, except that they don't support one thing that Dells do
exceptionally well: driverless docking stations. (And no, USB and Thunderbolt
docking stations don't work well under Linux and I have no reason to believe
they ever will.)

~~~
kop316
This blog post accurately describes my semtiment:

[https://drewdevault.com/rants/2020/02/18/Fucking-
laptops.htm...](https://drewdevault.com/rants/2020/02/18/Fucking-laptops.html)

I like Drew on the blog post use a Thinkpad X200, and it more than suits my
needs for a laptop, and I even shelled out the money for one of the 51nb
x2100s. If System 76 bucks the current trend and makes a laptop in the style
of an old thinkpad (To quote Drew: "The integrated GPU, Bluetooth and WiFi,
internal sensors, and even the fingerprint reader can all be driven by the
upstream Linux kernel. In fact, the hardware is so well understood that I have
successfully used almost all of the laptop’s features on Linux, FreeBSD,
NetBSD, Minix, Haiku, and Plan 9. Plan fucking 9. It can run coreboot, too.
The back of the laptop has all of the screws (Phillips head) labelled so you
know which to remove to service which parts. User replacable parts include the
screen, keyboard (multiple layouts are available and are interchangeable), the
RAM, hard drive (I put a new SSD in one of mine a few weeks ago, and it took
about 30 seconds) — actually, there are a total of 26 replacable parts in this
laptop. There is a detailed 278-page service manual to assist you or your
local repair tech in addressing any problems that arise.") I think they could
easily charge a very healthy premium and get a lot of people to line up for it
(myself included).

------
Jeaye
I have both a System76 Oryx Pro (laptop, for the past 3 years) and a Thelio
Major (desktop, for the past 6 months). Both have run Arch most of the time
and both are the best laptop/desktop I've owned, for development and for
gaming. Excellent Linux support and powerful hardware, unlike the Purism
machines.

I can certainly recommend System76 to anyone needing a powerful setup running
Linux. I have no affiliation.

~~~
marcus_holmes
I bought a Purism machine over a year ago, and I'm pretty happy with it. I
looked at System76 but they didn't look great back then. What's the basis of
your statement?

~~~
Jeaye
The best Purism laptops ship with a Core i7 7500U (Kabylake) dual core
processor. I've been using at least quad core processors in laptops for
literally over a decade, so that just doesn't cut it.

My statement wasn't against Purism's quality, principle, or anything other
than the fact that their laptops and non-laptops (Purism server) are weak
sauce compared to what you can get with System76.

~~~
marcus_holmes
I believe (and I could be wrong) that the reason Purism lags behind the
leading edge of processors is because they're busy disabling Intel Management
Engine.

Does this figure into your estimates at all?

------
loop0
If I could give one feedback to system76, or even better, to all laptop
manufacturers: please start making 15 inch laptops without numpad. I was
considering buying a system76 in the past and this was what prevented me to
buy one.

~~~
jjuel
I go the other way. I wish all laptop manufacturers would stop making 15in
laptops with numpads. The way the keyboard is offset makes it terrible in my
opinion. Of course I don't do a lot of stuff that requires me to make use of a
numpad either.

~~~
zchrykng
That is exactly the same thing the parent post said...

~~~
Wowfunhappy
You're reading too quickly! :)

GGP wants numpads, GP wants no numpads.

Edit: Nope, I'm the one reading too quickly, oops.

~~~
syntheticnature
Projection! GGP doesn't want numpads either. Based on phrasing, they might be
okay with some laptops offering it, where as GP wants them eliminated.

GGP: "start making 15 inch laptops without numpad"

GP: "stop making 15in laptops with numpads"

------
Freak_NL
System76 has nice gear (I'm on my second System76 laptop now), but I really
can't recommend them for anyone not in the US (or perhaps Canada). Warranty
and shipping are an issue here in Europe. They really should partner up with a
European company to handle the EU market.

~~~
Lio
Yeah they are definitely not up to speed in Europe.

Even that blog page gives you no choice but to either accept their cookies
(whatever they're used for) or not read it.

I don't think that GDPR compliant. Really they should be offering an opt-out.

~~~
ThePowerOfFuet
Forced cookies is a violation of the ePrivacy Directive, not the GDPR.

------
haloblue
I have two machines from them. Both laptops. The first is a Lemur and though
powerful, the build quality is not good. The second is a GalagoPro and it is
excellent. When I replace my workstation next year, it will be a Thelio. Truly
looking forward to their in house built laptop.

I have no affiliation with them.

------
onlyesterday
I have a GalagoPro I bought from them about a year ago. The machine died on me
at 12 months. After running through some diagnostic steps at home it seemed to
need a new motherboard. I didn't address this issue with them until one month
after the 12 month default warranty and they were unwilling to work with me on
replacing it at a discount so I didn't seek repair because of the cost and I
lost faith in their products. I don't expect special treatment but was
disappointed the GalagoPro died within 12 months. I would not recommend their
products unless you buy a longer warranty or they source their hardware from
elsewhere.

~~~
robotbikes
On the other hand I have bought 2 used System76 laptops from eBay and they
honored the existing original warranty and replaced the motherboard without
ever asking me for my proof of purchase (its all tracked by serial #). So yeah
I recommend buying the extended warranty, and they are really good about
repairs and Linux support.

------
jchw
I have high hopes for System76 and their endeavors on laptops. While I’ve
heard mixed things regarding some of their older laptops, I think there’s a
lot of room to at least offer truly unique products. I actually considered
buying the Thelio, just because it would look nice in the living room as an
alternative to my current HTPC setup. (Not exactly rational, but it really
does look nice.)

I know support for AMD Zen in Coreboot is currently pretty limited, but for
example I’d love to see a mid to high end Ryzen laptop with Coreboot. Though
even if it happened, I’d be kind of sad to leave Lenovo and their TrackPoint
pointing stick...

~~~
tbrock
Why don’t they include a keyboard with a pointer stick? Seems like a no
brainer given their market segment is thinkpad junkies.

Compaq, toshiba, and other companies seemed to be able to include them in 90s
laptops by just using a different color bud (like green).

~~~
XMPPwocky
Does System76 design these machines themselves, or are they rebadged? They
might not have control over what the keyboard is.

~~~
rumanator
Until recently, system76 simply rebranded hardware produced by Clevo.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevo)

Link to an old HN thread.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17039414](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17039414)

Link to an article from Linux magazine stating that System76 are still mainly
Clevo (Sager) rebranders.

[https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/System76-To-
Desig...](https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/System76-To-Design-And-
Build-Laptops-In-House)

------
thrwaway69
Other than a distro, what exactly do system76 provides in their lineup?

Their laptops are clevo with different branding.

Thelio doesn't seem good for the price point. I can have someone build me a
custom cabinet at that price point (it looks meh) and all other parts are
supplied by manufacturers.

What sets their experience apart?

You can get some great stuff from tonfangs, clevo, systempc, eluktronics, etc
at a much more reasonable and realistic price.

~~~
bityard
Can you call up any of those Chinese companies on the phone and talk with an
actual person if you have questions about their products, or an issue with
your order?

~~~
thrwaway69
That's the same place system76 is buying from. It will be no different. You
are saying system76 will have better support service than any of the other
companies selling hardware.

You can buy case from NZXT.

PSU and ram from corsair.

Processor from amd.

Motherboard from whichever manufacturer provides great service locally.

SSDs from silicon/sabrent/samsung.

GPU from nvidia or AMD.

And you would still have from 3 to 10 years of warranty on the parts whereas
system 76 provides 1 year unless you pay more.

Now again, let's leave self build out of the way.

Why not get it from the other vendors I mentioned which provide the same?

Some of them are American. You can find many if you don't want to deal with
assembling/maintainence yourself but most PCs if you buy the right parts will
not have any problems.

------
terhechte
I've considered buying a Thelio a couple of times, sadly they only ship them
to North America right now.

~~~
listic
You can use a reshipping service like Shipito if you really want.

------
platoscubicle
I just bought the Adder WS and can't believe the quality of the trackpad. I
also own a 2015 MBP and before the Adder I had not found another laptop with a
trackpad that can rival the Mac. Overall very satisfied with the whole machine
so far.

------
sgt
Seems like an excellent entry point into the world of Hackintosh. I prefer
Apple hardware, but it would be nice to have an option if macOS can be made to
run well on these System76 desktops. Anyone with experience?

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
What advantage does System76 have for running Darwin? Or do you just want a
hackintosh and like their hardware?

------
AdmiralAsshat
I thought about getting a Thelio to be a mid-level gaming desktop built for
Linux, but it was a little difficult to justify economically--when compared
against parts I could put together myself and still maximize Linux
compatibility (e.g. using AMD processor/GPU to avoid stodgy NVIDIA drivers),
it was still about a thousand dollar premium to go with System76. I want to
support the Linux desktop, but I don't make enough yet from my dayjob to
justify an extra grand.

My hope is that their costs will come down as the manufacturing process gets
streamlined.

~~~
moondev
I don't understand why people keep saying this? Of course you can save money
by building your own. This applies to Dell and others just the same. The value
of system76 is they do it for you, with the benefit of Linux support out of
the box.

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
Maybe I should clarify. I don't mean "build the whole thing from scratch
parts"\--I don't have the time or the energy to do that anymore. I meant that
even if I'm buying a mostly-built PC with tweaks (ala iBuyPower or other
options that can let me switch/upgrade CPU/GPU/RAM parts), there's still
roughly a thousand dollar premium for the System76 option.

So yes, I would like to support Linux Desktop development, but I also have
finite monies.

