
Can You Think Yourself into a Different Person? (2015) - LearnerHerzog
https://mosaicscience.com/story/neuroplasticity
======
RobertRoberts
I think you can. I changed the very dynamic of my family by changing myself. I
grew up with a snippy and grouchy mother, and so I was a snippy and grouchy
parent. But when I saw my kids treating eachother poorly for far too long, and
nothing I did fixed anything. I changed my tactics completely.

I stopped being grouchy and snippy. Or at least at first I stopped expressing
myself this way to them. I was determined to end this trend, no matter what.
After a few months (literally) of me not raising my voice, unless it was
totally and completely justified (which I discovered was very rare) I could
then say to my kids (and wife), I expect you to talk nice and decently to
eachother, and as soon as they accused me of being grouchy, I pointed out that
I hadn't been for months, and something changed, everyone started to listen to
me, even when I talked quietly.

I've become a morning person, I started jogging about 5 years ago (I hated
exercise), I stopped eating white sugar in 1995 (because it was controlling me
like a narcotic), and I have worked on many of my other bad habits and traits.
I think anyone can change anything. And I really like reading about other
people's successes in self change as well.

Everything from quitting smoking, losing weight, success in work and
relationships brought back from the brink of destruction. We just need enough
of a reason to do something, and then we can do it.

The trick seems to be, can you make up your own reasons? I know we can. (also
I defeated crippling life long depression, food addictions, weight loss, and
few other things many people want to label "diseases" we have no cure for or
control over, I call bologna on that, we can change anything.)

~~~
mtpn
> I call bologna on that, we can change anything.

Please be cautious about making such statements. I respect your experience and
success at changing things for yourself with this model. I don't for a second
doubt your sincerity. But the belief that a depressed/addicted person could
get better if they just _tried harder_ is part of a very dangerous feedback
loop when you are down. You can't control everything you experience or the
feelings you have. You can, sometimes, control your interpretation and
response to those things, if you are careful. You can do everything right and
still not be able to break the cycle. We're all different, I'm glad this
worked for you but it doesn't necessarily follow that your approach would help
others.

~~~
RobertRoberts
If we take any argument to an extreme we can see where the flaws lie. For
example, who would claim that if their life depended on it, they couldn't
change some aspect of themselves? Or if someone else's life depended on it.

And, no I don't have to be careful about saying things like this. I think it's
an extreme failure of our modern society to side with those very, very few
that truly have a physical disability that causes their emotional problems
(ie, brain damage) compared to vast majority of people that simply have
emotional damage, something that can be overcome with personal responsibility
and having a reason to change.

In my case, I valued my relationship with my kids and wife more than the
physical satisfaction I got from yelling at them.

If you choose to yell at your family, and blame a non-fixable disorder, so be
it, maybe in your case, or someone you know, that's possible. But that person
needs to get professional help. If that person reads my writing, they don't
get any value from it.

But for everyone else, I hope they can see that real change is possible, and
ignore all the neigh sayers that will give them an excuse not to try.

Word to the wise, if you give yourself an excuse, you will take it. For people
that simple can't change how they act, they should check them selves into an
mental health institution now, and get some help. Everyone else can truly and
absolutely change themselves.

You just need to value the person you want to be more than the person you are.

~~~
mtpn
> If that person reads my writing, they don't get any value from it.

To be fair, they may well think you are referring to them, because of your
words here and how you don't seem to acknowledge the reality of their
condition:

> also I defeated crippling life long depression, food addictions, weight
> loss, and few other things many people want to label "diseases" we have no
> cure for or control over

Sometimes really all the person can do is avoid suicide for another day.
That's the only choice available. To keep living or not. Traditional logic is
not available to the suicidal person at that point. Only depression logic, and
as the saying goes: depression lies. People who love their families end up
feeling that their family would be better off without them dragging them down
and instead of asking for a hug, they kill themselves. Depression blinds you
to what your options really are, and what the truth is. You can't rationalize
your way out of it with facts because depression destroys facts and replaces
them with the conviction that you aren't worth anything.

> But for everyone else, I hope they can see that real change is possible, and
> ignore all the neigh sayers that will give them an excuse not to try.

I agree with you that the availability of an illness to be used as an excuse
for poor choices comes with some baggage. And many people can improve their
quality of life and relationships through making better choices in what to do,
and allowing those better choices the time to accumulate into meaningful
change. I am proud of you for improving life for you and your family.

In terms of professional help, I do believe it starts with taking and
listening to a therapist and trying to create change based on thinking
differently. It often works. If that fails, a trial-and-error journey with
medication begins. If that also fails, the person is screwed until further
notice, or they can try a bunch of experimental things. All of this is only
possible if they can afford the costs of therapy and treatment, which is by no
means a given.

~~~
RobertRoberts
>To be fair, they may well think you are referring to them, because of your
words here and how you don't seem to acknowledge the reality of their
condition:

I can see that. And I feel that sometimes a slap in the face really is what we
need. People don't seem to like that idea, but it happened a few times to me,
and some people will take that and turn it into a good thing and others won't.

I am speaking to the people who will accept the possibility that they can
change. People who will never accept this will never change, it's that simple.
Because they will always blame someone else for their problems. I have had
people like this in my life, and they eventually come around to blaming you.

I found that for some people to get out of depression, they need to cut ties
with these people, and find friends that will support them, not drag them
down. Life is too hard the way it is.

>Sometimes really all the person can do is avoid suicide for another day.

I am intimately familiar with this. And I understand that's there's a point in
time where words are meaningless. But if they are reading hacker news, I
suspect it's possible they aren't there right now. In fact, by reading
comments like this, it indicates they are looking for answers, encouragement
or something, who knows.

When I was there, I looked for anything to help me through the day, or the
moment. Sometimes it was cutting to make other pain dull, or finding a way to
off myself that I think I could go through with. Anything. Drowning is how I
would describe it. Logic to a drowning person is pointless.

But then, you have moments, where you are on the beach, you aren't drowning,
and your fine. But you know where you will be again soon, and these are the
times where you can look for hope. Find something to hold onto when you are
drowning again.

One difficult choice I had to make was to not expect the people around me to
take the weight of my pain. One of the worst nights of my entire life were
when I was on the phone with a girlfriend who hung up to kill herself. I
called her family and friends and found out the next day she was fine and she
dumped me shortly after.

Despite all the pain I was in, I couldn't believe that someone could hurt you
so bad and have no remorse about it. I realized then that if I expected other
people to constantly be worried that I was going to off myself, that it would
be the worst thing I could do to them.

So, using this knowledge, I started to face my pain, one little bit at a time.
I didn't stop looking to suicide as an answer to my problems until I worked at
this for many years. Always reminding myself the pain I would cause others.

It's a terrible lie that people believe that other's would be better off
without them. And it may take a really long time to convince yourself of the
opposite, but I know it's possible. The more you do for others, the more real
this becomes. I made myself valuable to my family, with the intentions of
doing the opposite of taking care of just myself, and over time I slowing
learned to believe they value having me around.

I can say that even today, I don't have the same conviction many other people
have of this. But I am not depressed (still have bad days, but I get out of
bed and face it) and I no longer consider suicide. I have to say that it's my
logic that helps me see the truth, it helps me stay on track, because my
feelings can twist me all up, and I no longer want to follow them wherever
they go.

I know many people can't afford professional help, but today, you can go on an
internet board, call your parents, or a friend anywhere in the world and just
ask them to say something encouraging. Anything happy or good.

The therapists I dealt with followed books and rules, my wife would just hold
me for an hour. Which do you think made my day better? I know many people
don't have a wife, or a friend to get help from. But there are many people out
there that will help a random stranger through a moment of darkness.

Sometimes the answer to a problem is to just ask anyone for help.

------
danharaj
One thing that I've come to appreciate in adulthood is to what extent
conscious, verbal thought can change the way I think. The answer at first
seemed "not very much" which frustrated me and stymied my ability to pick up
new things or deal with maladaptive behaviors.

I thought it was just my brain getting older, but I've since realized that I'm
still quite plastic, it's just a more implicit process than I figured and
being consciously preoccupied with it is counterproductive.

It feels more like changing the momentum of a rolling boulder, or the moon
tugging on the ocean to make tides. Understanding that the part of me that I
feel I have most control over plays a limited if crucial role in what I become
has made life a bit less stressful and my thinking a bit more effective.

~~~
fpoling
For me attempts at meditation when one tries to shutdown verbal thoughts for
some time were extremely revealing. I realized how "rational thought" has very
little with defining myself and how much time is required indeed to change
something that I do not like about myself.

------
sendos
A very poignant if cynical poem by the Greek poet Kavafis on this topic:

You said: “I’ll go to another country, go to another shore, find another city
better than this one.

Whatever I try to do is fated to turn out wrong and my heart lies buried as
though it were something dead. How long can I let my mind moulder in this
place? Wherever I turn, wherever I happen to look, I see the black ruins of my
life, here, where I’ve spent so many years, wasted them, destroyed them
totally.”

You won’t find a new country, won’t find another shore. This city will always
pursue you. You will walk the same streets, grow old in the same
neighborhoods, will turn gray in these same houses.

You will always end up in this city. Don’t hope for things elsewhere: there is
no ship for you, there is no road.

As you’ve wasted your life here, in this small corner, you’ve destroyed it
everywhere else in the world.

~~~
brodo
I can tell from personal experience that if you change your environment and
have new experiences, you will also change. Changing a big part of your life
(job, location, relationships) makes it easier and sometimes necessary to also
change your behaviour. Changing your behaviour in a big way also means to
change your personality. However, if you're the kind of person who moves a
lot, you're not really changing anything when you move. It's about doing scary
things you've never done before.

------
hliyan
Recently, I've discarded all 'principle-based' attempts at self-improvement
and replaced it with a single approach: I start with "The human mind is a
neural network, therefore..."

I find that most changes are a matter of the size and strength of the training
dataset. Either you have to go through a lot of repetition, or a few incidents
immediately followed by major negative or positive reinforcements.

It works.

~~~
wz1000
Neural networks as are trendy in ML today have little or nothing to do with
the neurons in the human brain.

~~~
happycube
Yup... I'm increasingly thinking of them as matrix machines. Pity the movies
redefined that word to the general public ;)

------
jordansmithnz
A few years back I read a book on neuroplasticity. It was a great read,
although possibly aimed slightly above my knowledge on the subject (zero).
From memory, this was what I took away:

• you can change the way you think. It takes a lot of effort, time, and
motivation - but it’s within reach. Small improvements lead to bigger ones
over time.

• diet, excersize and good sleep are all involved. You can’t eat junk food,
sleep poorly, and expect to see much of a difference.

• making good decisions is a large part of the process. Eat well. Sleep well.
Put yourself in the right situations. Don’t put yourself in the wrong ones. If
you’re afraid of speaking in public, speak in public. If you need to be more
organised, buy a planner (app?) that will help you with your organisation. Etc

To me, a lot of it seemed to be grounded in common sense. Seems to be well
regarded/reviewed too, for anyone interested: [https://www.amazon.com/Rewire-
Your-Brain-Think-Better/dp/047...](https://www.amazon.com/Rewire-Your-Brain-
Think-Better/dp/0470487291)

------
otakucode
How else could anyone ever possibly develop or change? It seems a ludicrous
question. If you expend effort on thinking about your actions, you will take
different actions. The actions you take determine the person you are.

~~~
RobertRoberts
Maybe for the author it is purely and academic one, where for everyone else
it's a life changing one? (no pun-like structure implied)

------
vbuwivbiu
Move to a new city in a different country and get a new network of friends and
you'll change

------
projectramo
There is a large difference between the claim that:

1\. One changes

and

2\. One can purposefully change in particular direction

While the former is (I believe) obviously true, the second may not be.

While I don't doubt brains change, the question is, can we purposefully change
it in a particular manner to achieve a particular end.

The article spends a lot of time talking about neuroplasticity which addresses
the first claim, but not the second.

~~~
RobertRoberts
These seem like generalities of "change" which may not apply in reality. For
example, your goal is to quit smoking, a specific change in a particular
direction. If you don't achieve the quitting, did you actually change? If you
did, didn't you affect the change in a particular direction?

------
neuralzen
This is in essence what Vajrayana buddhism uses as its locus. Instead of
seeking to destroy desires, as early Buddhist traditions do by working on
breaking them apart and inspecting them, reductio ad absurdum, they seek
instead to reshape desire to become a vehicle itself to enlightenment. There
are intense and lengthy practices which aim to slowly shift the way the
practitioner thinks and perceives, to be more aligned with an 'enlightened'
perspective, and therefore shift into that modality, and eventually have
insight.

~~~
neuralzen
Short video describing this process in Zen:
[https://youtu.be/Q_VizlDWcTA](https://youtu.be/Q_VizlDWcTA)

------
Spearchucker
Everything I've ever wanted, I got. Whether a first new car, stopping smoking,
gaining weight, losing weight, being the guy that everyone likes... I just
needed to want it enough.

------
somberi
"Either seem as you are or be as you seem."(Rumi)

On the other hand works of Paul Ekman and others have shown that consciously
and wilfully changing facial muscles changes the emotional state of mind.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ekman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ekman)

------
SteveCoast
I've done neurofeedback and have the hardware. It's amazing what you can
achieve. It's amazing it works at all.

There's a decent book on the popular history of it - 'a symphony in the brain'
I think it's called.

~~~
relyks
What do you use for hardware? How did you get into it? I've been investigating
doing it for myself

~~~
YaxelPerez
I'm pretty sure it's just an EEG. The OpenEEG project is a good resource imo:
[http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/hw/](http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/hw/)

------
swayvil
I changed myself. I cured my aspergers, more or less. I did it with
meditation.

~~~
mercer
Could you tell some more about that? I've had some positive experience with
meditation, but I'd really like to hear how it helped you.

~~~
swayvil
My awareness used to be like a clenched fist. I used to be like a clenched
fist. Focused and concentrated all the time. Always obsessed. Always in my
head. Disconnected from everything.

Now my awareness is like an open hand, fingers spread. I see a lot of stuff
that was invisible to me before. My world is bigger. I am out of my head.

I'm not saying its perfect. And obsession calls like a siren. But you could
say that I am aware of the options now, and can choose intelligently, where
before I was only aware of one option and called it reality.

The technique that I use is what the Buddhists call Vipassana.

~~~
vijayr
I've seen this mentioned multiple times here. Did you go to any of the
retreats? Could you share a bit more info, about your experience?

~~~
swayvil
I will alert you when I post about it on my blog.

~~~
mercer
Me too, please.

------
justinpombrio
There's an anime on this topic: Haibane Remnei.

------
dang
Url changed from
[https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/neuroplasticity_us_564c...](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/neuroplasticity_us_564cdeefe4b00b7997f8d10e),
which points to this.

Discussion from 2015:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10587031](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10587031)

------
thrownaway577
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