
Just a few drinks can change how memories are formed - Elof
https://news.brown.edu/articles/2018/10/alcohol
======
hamandcheese
> They make people nauseous or they give people hangovers, so why do we find
> them so rewarding? Why do we remember the good things about them and not the
> bad?

Is this not generally true? I like to hike, but a lot of times climbing a
mountain is absolutely miserable, and I might be sore for some time afterword.
Yet I always remember it as a great experience.

Or with past relationships, I have to try to remember the bad parts, but the
good parts come easily.

~~~
ra88it
Yes, I think it is quite normal.

Alcohol is a cheap, ubiquitous drug that helps us relax today, for a roughly
proportionate cost which we can pay tomorrow (plus whatever longer-term costs
like liver damage or memory formation which we can ignore or put off for even
longer).

It's not confusing or unintuitive. Alcohol helps us relax. That's all it does!
Which leads to all the other behaviors that are secondary to suddenly finding
oneself relaxed. At first, a healthy relationship with alcohol is a perfectly
reasonable transaction. I think it is normal that we would have fond memories
of being relaxed, even in the midst of the mild hangover that would
necessarily follow.

We easily get addicted to cheap methods for getting relaxed. Why wouldn't we?
Especially if everyone around us is constantly using it to get relaxed. It's
disgusting to witness! Unless you also use it to relax, in which case it
suddenly becomes tolerable or even amusing.

You don't need much to relax (initially). Like with most drugs, eventually it
is less potent and you require more. Also, like with any habit, your default
baseline (in this case, your default relaxedness) starts to shift, so that
eventually you are actively un-relaxed unless alcohol is present in your
system. Obviously, as this continues, you need more and more alcohol, which is
toxic pretty much in direct proportion to its volume.

Edit: added the sentence about hangovers, for clarity

~~~
par
The idea that alcohol helps people relax is actually an old (and incorrect)
way of thinking about alcohol. The 'relaxtion' that is felt by alcohol is
actually due to its addictiveness, and the cycle it puts you in. By drinking,
you are entering a cycle where you crave the next drink, which is why it
'relaxes' you, it is actually just removing the very craving it places in you.

~~~
nostrebored
Source? This is completely counter to my experience and everything that I know
about alcohol

~~~
par
Neurogenic studies of alcohol addiction:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2607330/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2607330/)

Could you post a source that shows alcohol relaxes you?

~~~
crehn
So you don't feel more relaxed after a drink?

~~~
cmurf
Quite a few people become aggressive. I wouldn't consider alcohol universally
relaxing. It might be universally an uninhibitor.

------
rconti
I know everyone is recommending the book Why We Sleep, but I'll pile on and
say that I found it to be a fantastic read, and the consequences of alcohol
consumption are devastating. Stats like 40+% reduction in retained information
from just a few drinks the night after learning new facts. Or the night BEFORE
learning new facts. And how the ill consequences occur even if you abstain for
several DAYS after learning new facts, then have several drinks 3 days later.

~~~
soared
Honest question -

Do most adults need to retain new information very often?(excluding the
typical HN audience who are constantly learning/innovating/reading/etc)

~~~
imgabe
I would posit that enough adults drink often enough that society is generally
structured to allow people to function with whatever impairment occasional
drinking creates, since that would be the baseline capability for the average
person.

That doesn't mean you couldn't benefit from doing better than that, though.

~~~
usrusr
And yet I don't see myself surrounded by highly successful ascets. Maybe the
typical winners are those who by chance happen to be somewhat immune to the
negatives than others while still cashing in on the positives (see ajcodez
post)?

I do wonder occasionally who a parallel universe abstinent-me would be today.
Would I have retained that deep focus excitability I had as a young teen? From
a personal perspective it's difficult if not impossible to tell the effects of
drinking years from the effects of years.

~~~
imgabe
I think you're right that there probably is some variance among individuals in
that some are more negatively impacted than others.

I think also "success" depends not only on individual performance, but also
social connections. You can only get so far working on your own. At some point
you need to be able to get along with other people, and alcohol does
facilitate that to some extent.

------
dkarl
_All drugs of abuse — alcohol, opiates, cocaine, methamphetamine — have
adverse side effects. They make people nauseous or they give people hangovers,
so why do we find them so rewarding? Why do we remember the good things about
them and not the bad?_

This seems like a weird question, at least in relation to alcohol. The
pleasurable experience of alcohol is not only remembered but enthusiastically
attested to by people currently under the influence. People have no problem
remembering hangovers and talk about them frequently, and the other negative
health effects are separated in time from the consumption experience, which
weakens the association. I suspect this person has an unusual personal
reaction to alcohol, but if it leads him to original discoveries, more power
to him.

~~~
cblum
I probably have an “unusual reaction” to alcohol, since I don’t find it great.
I’ve only gotten drunk twice in my life and it felt horrible, even kind of
traumatizing. Not just the hangover, even the feeling of being drunk is very
unpleasant to me.

------
Apocryphon
Weirdly enough, at certain amounts of alcohol, I start to think about memories
I haven't had in years. Nothing traumatic nor nostalgic, but just mundane
memories from school or childhood. I suppose it's just the mind wandering to
thoughts it normally doesn't think about while inebriated, forming unusual
connections.

~~~
cheschire
There's even pop culture references for such a phenomenon. As an example, in
the movie Beerfest, they get one of the characters drunk so he can recall the
way to a secret place that he had only previously experienced drunk before.

~~~
kevstev
I actually once had a situation like this- in the village in NYC there is a
secret club/lounge my friend took me to one night. That area is just filled
with bars that these days are overrun with tourists and the post-college
crowd. I went out to dinner with a friend one night about two years later, we
had a few, and were looking for a night cap, and I was like ugh, lets just
leave the neighborhood to avoid these loud places you have to fight for space
in.

But... then I walked by this almost suspectly non-descript steel door at the
bottom of a few stairs, and some part of my brain said "there is a secret
club/lounge behind this door." It was kind of surreal. I hesitantly opened it,
and what do you know... there we were.

------
mirimir
So does 10 mg zolpidem tartrate. As in, totally prevents memory formation.
Gotta be careful with that stuff.

And prototypically, marijuana. Back in the day, I'd always see movies stoned.
That way, if I liked them, I could see them again freshly. And if I didn't
liked them, I could forget about them more easily.

~~~
Marsymars
Brain injury can also obliterate memory abilities.

I've had a single moderate concussion, where one of my first memories
afterwards is of sitting in the hospital emergency room with a couple friends.
I had a notebook with my handwriting, containing several pages of
questions/answers that my friends had me write down so they could stop
repeating themselves to me.

~~~
mirimir
Hey, but at least you had friends and something to write with :)

    
    
        Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position
        Such a heavy burden now to be the one
        Born to bear and bring to all the details of our ending
        To write it down for all the world to see
        But I forgot my pen
    

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZXJLQntCP0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZXJLQntCP0)

~~~
bbqq
Literally had this song playing by pure chance from a big shuffle playlist,
and did a double take.

How's that for chance :)

------
Ancalagon
Interesting that so many others in this thread experience the same side
effects on their learning capabilities caused by even just a few drinks and/or
lack of sleep. I feel significantly slower and much more mentally "foggy" for
days after I drink more than 1-2 drinks in a sitting. I'm definitely still a
social drinker, but this affirms my opinion that I need to further reduce my
alcohol consumption (preferably remove it altogether).

~~~
easytiger
> I feel significantly slower and much more mentally "foggy" for days after I
> drink more than 1-2 drinks in a sitting.

If it only takes 3 drinks and has this effect you clearly can't metabolise
alcohol well and have a genetic difference to others, because that's not a
normal westerner's experience. Perhaps you have an enzyme difference along the
chain of breakdown

------
badrabbit
There is emotional pain and then there is physiological pain.

Drugs and alcohol alleviate emotional pain and have physilogical "pleasure"
effects in some cases. But most of the negative effects that are frequently
talked about are physiological.

Apples shouldn't be compared to oranges. A good comparison would for example
be to compare the pleasures of drugs against the emotional toll caused by the
negative sociological effects (can't get jobs,stigma,less friends in some
cases,unintended harm to loved ones,etc...)

People take medical drugs like anti-depressants all the time knowing full well
long term use can have side effects and even in the short term there can be
severe side effects.

~~~
Elof
I think, because of how society views alcohol, it's possible for not drinking
to have a negative sociological and emotional effect. For example, someone
gets passed up for a promotion because they don't go out to happy hour.

~~~
Ancalagon
This. This is huge for me as well. There is definitely a societal expectation
to drink in certain situations, and if you don't, you're viewed as one of the
un-cool guys. Probably another thing that will require change at the
leadership level to be really corrected over time.

~~~
beatgammit
And it's really dangerous for people predisposed to alcoholism. In the past,
smoking was similar, and it has serious long term negative physiological
effects.

I don't drink, and fortunately I've never worked in an office where that
mattered, but my personal choices in consuming drugs should have no
professional repercussions unless it negatively impacts my job performance.

------
minikites
If alcohol were invented today, I don't think there's any way it would be
legal in most nations. The only reason we tolerate it as a society is
millennia of inertia.

~~~
vasilipupkin
Geez, lighten up. Yes, some people definitely develop alcohol addiction but
about 80% do not and are free to enjoy good quality drinks that not only give
you a buzz, but also potentially taste great like good wine or whisky or
mezcal.

~~~
obstacle1
The entire point of this thread is that even small doses of alcohol -- doses
well within what we consider to be moderate drinking -- have fairly extreme
negative effects on memory. This is a problem even for the 80% of drinkers who
do not develop alcohol addiction.

As we start to actually study the effects of alcohol, it really looks like it
is a hard drug with no net positive effects at anything over a minuscule dose.

~~~
mruts
I mean, it’s gotten me laid a bunch, and also has had me make new friends.
Also a promotion (probably)

~~~
drawkbox
Taking that further, it has also probably had a considerable effect on
population numbers. Alcohol probably adds to the birth rate.

~~~
usrusr
I'm not sure how well that hypothesis would hold up in a quick comparison of
alcohol consumption per capita vs birth rate.

Space aliens looking at those numbers might even mistake alcohol for a mild
contraceptive.

~~~
randomdata
A prevailing theory is that humans started engaging in agriculture, which was
less efficient than hunting and gathering in the start, because of the desire
to consume alcohol. It is difficult to argue that agriculture has not had a
dramatic effect on population numbers.

------
deepGem
I somehow remember most of my good memories when I was drunk and buzzed. On
those few occasions that I had passed out completely, I remember the time till
I passed out, like the time I just barely reaching my hotel door, opened and
collapsed on the floor.

On the most strenuous hikes or endurance activities that I have undertaken, I
have vivid memories of the struggle, like I can remember feeling so thirsty
and walking for most of the last 5K. I also remember how foolish was I to play
an 18 hole the next day, without using a buggy (talk about male ego). By the
time I reached the 18th hole I was about to pass out and collapse.

Nowadays I stay away from alcohol and just restrict myself to a single beer or
a glass of wine. It takes me 4-5 pints to get buzzed and leaves me with a
terrible headache later. Not a good sign.

~~~
theNJR
How do you know you remembered everything? Obviously you don’t remember what
you don’t remember.

------
Steve44
One aspect which is often not considered with alcohol is that it’s one of the
few drugs where you’re not just taking it to experience its affect – to get
drunk. There are so many fantastically variable tastes and mouth feels with
drinks that for many the majority of the pleasure is actually in consuming
them. Wines & beers are a pleasure to drink and can go extremely well with
food, often adding another layer to the enjoyment of the meal. Sipping spirits
and cocktails can be a fantastic sensory experience, there is a whole world of
flavours to explore and enjoy.

The getting tipsy / drunk part is, of course, part of it and some people do go
too far. It also has a lot of other problems but don’t lose sight that there
is so much more to it than just getting drunk.

~~~
syn0byte
I was gonna make a sarcastic remark about how O'Douls and other NA beer must
be booming business if alcohol wasn't the main attraction...

[https://www.brewbound.com/news/brewers-large-and-small-
take-...](https://www.brewbound.com/news/brewers-large-and-small-take-aim-at-
non-alcoholic-beer-segment)

Joke's on me eh?

~~~
Steve44
There is now quite a range of low/zero alcohol beers and they are getting more
drinkable. Some of them can be fairly nice is small quantities but they all
lack the depth of a good beer. I had an interesting one brewed with Kombucha
recently, that was quite an interesting drink but still not as good as a real
beer can be. Erdinger Alkoholfrei wheat beer is pretty good.
[https://wisebartender.co.uk/](https://wisebartender.co.uk/) has a really good
range.

All the non alcoholic wines I’ve tried have been pretty bad, more like a sweet
vermouth. Can be made drinkable with some tonic water.

There is also a boom in distilled non alcoholic 'spirits' which can be OK.
Again they don't have the depths of a spirit and tend to be quite light with
wither floral or spicy notes. They are also expensive, Seedlip is one of the
better ones but at £26 a bottle it's comparable to a decent quality spirit.

It's great that there has been so much development but they're still quite
different drinks.

------
senthil_rajasek
On the positive side, some people do drink to forget.

------
jdpigeon
So, activity-dependent signaling cascades can cause single nucleotide
substitutions during transcription?

Oh my god, I remember why I left neuroscience now. Biology is just
incomprehensibly, nauseatingly, complex.

------
ordu
Sadly enough, that all this science explores averages. I cannot drink alcohol
because I remember "side effects" much more clearly than "direct" ones. I used
to have fun from drinks, but with age I did it less frequently and for the
last 10 years I didn't drink at all. Why? Is there is some psychological cause
or some biochemistry mechanisms works at higher/lower intensity than in
average fly? I cannot even make a guess reading such articles.

~~~
aliteralrobot
I was going say something to this effect as well, for the other harder drugs
I’ve tried. I do remember having fun while on them, but I also vividly
remember the “come down”, and don’t really crave them at all because of that.
I wonder if this (psychological?) trait is more common amongst people who are
unlikely to become addicted to drugs.

~~~
penagwin
I have pretty bad depression and mindfulness (metacognition/awareness of your
emotions) have a lot to do with memories. I'm often not "aware" that I'm
happy/sad/angry, etc. and my memories reflect that. Just taking a moment and
thinking about what I'm currently feeling can be surprising to me.

I think this relates a lot here, people who are well aware of their emotions
may observe the effects the drugs have on them, not just when they're
high/coming down but also it's affects on their day to day lives.

------
handsomechad
Ever since practicing mindfulness and become more aware of my emotional state,
drinking alcohol has become a nonstarter for me. It took a while for me to
truly connect the dots, but, following a night of imbibing, I crash really
hard on not just a physiological level but an emotional, psychological level
as well. In fact I find it hard to separate the two reactions. To me they are
basically the same thing, overall increased levels of "pain" or "anxiety" or
"neurosis" manifesting in my inner being, my soul if you will.

I know that sounds a bit woo woo but it's sort of an ineffable and
inarticulable idea. I'm 100% sure I feel it though, every time I drink I sleep
poorly, I'm much more irritable once the alcohol wears off the next afternoon,
and by the time the evening comes around, assuming I don't re-dose, I'm much
more prone to ruminate on negative thoughts or seek mindless stimulation to
distract my mind from the general malaise.

I think alcohol really is a mainstream and socially acceptable means of
anxiety self-medication. It's a deeply engrained cultural habit that has been
around for millenia, and I don't expect or advocate for it to stop, but for me
it has palpable deleterious effects on my whole being.

------
64StarFox64
To me, this is the beginning of one such mechanistic explanation for alcohol
addiction. In particular, this is interesting when you consider the several
(many?) studies that link early age (binge-)drinking with increased likelihood
of alcoholism. One wonders whether the Notch "domino" is more susceptible in
younger brains.

------
hnuser355
Perhaps it’s weird but I don’t seem to have this issue. But I generally drink
1 standard drink per day max (actually weighed out on my little scale cause I
am a huge dork) and only 5x per week probably. I basically feel a bit happier
and a bit lazier after drinking some alcohol. Mildly more social.

------
gpvos
They explain what a molecular signaling pathway is, but what is a "conserved
molecular pathway", i.e., what is "conserved" about it?

------
thunderbong
Alcohol also makes us loose or inhibitions. I wonder why that is

~~~
angel_j
inhibition is retention (of some state, or feeling, like "safe"); alcohol
helps u forget; what inhibition?

