
Google Buzz - mbrubeck
http://www.google.com/buzz
======
fnid2
I wonder if, when a company crosses a threshold we all think violates a Nash
equilibrium, we start to _oppose_ the company. With this move, Google is
declaring war on a host of web companies that are heretofore thriving and
collaborating and making tons of money.

Every dollar of advertising that Facebook makes is a dollar or even more from
Google. Every minute that facebookers facebook, google isn't showing them ads
and isn't getting click throughs and this amounts to a vastly larger sum of
money than any new search engine or aggregator or individual media company
which google has already rendered moot to a large extent.

This is real time search which everyone has been asking for with all the data
stored on google's super voluminous uber-fast lightning machine with its
neurons and axons keeping the world connected and communicating.

Here it is and we don't want it.

The competition is for virtual real estate. Everywhere there is blank space on
the screen or blank time in the consumer day or a blank wall in the virtual
world, there will be an ad on it, just as today there are ads in nearly every
physical space: Public transportation, Bar room mirrors, big screen tvs...
Nothing is safe. No one is safe from Google and they have crossed the nash
equilibrium where everyone is competing against them, including the websites
where they get their content and the websites where people go to pass time.

~~~
yungchin
> I wonder if, when a company crosses a threshold we all think violates a Nash
> equilibrium, we start to oppose the company.

Do you mean "we, the people" or "we, the people who think in terms of Nash
equilibria"? ;)

More seriously: I don't think I care about how big the company is. Rather, I
care about the quality of the product, and whether I am free to leave it for a
competitor's product. Google is actually trying to make it easy for you to
leave if you choose to, and take your data with you - they're even inviting
you to report their failures in that regard at www.dataliberation.org - so
that's quite good.

If they don't make it easy for me to interact with
Facebookers/Twitterers/whateverers, I'll end up visiting
Facebook/Twitter/whatever instead, and vice versa - what's wrong with that?
I'm not an economist, but this sounds like a healthy competitive landscape to
me?

~~~
sketerpot
> Do you mean "we, the people" or "we, the people who think in terms of Nash
> equilibria"? ;)

The latter, of course. WE ARE A NEW PEOPLE! WE WILL PREVAIL!

More seriously, I don't care about how big the company is either, as such --
but I do worry about a company that gets so big and so diversified that it may
become anticompetitive and stifle innovation. Remember when Microsoft had the
power to hold back innovation, and we were stuck with IE6 for years and years?
Didn't that just _suck?_

Google is being a lot better about this, mind you. They seem to genuinely care
about interoperability and making it possible for competitors to beat them by
being better. And they've got good products and smart people and a non-broken
management structure. I feel good about Google. Nevertheless, a Google-
dominated web is something to worry about. I hope that there are always viable
alternatives. Not because I think Google is evil and corrupt, but because I
worry that they could become so.

~~~
andreyf
Seriously, what does this have to do with Nash equilibria, and how is Google
"violating" one?

------
alexandros
One thing that just struck me, is that google/gmail will not be banned from
workplace computers as often as fb/twitter have been. This alone will be a
significant advantage.

~~~
FreeRadical
I think in most corporates (outside the software industry) it's the other way
around. I can't access gmail/hotmail but can access social networks at work
(in finance).

~~~
qeorge
I've asked a couple of friends with corporate jobs, and they said Gmail is
usually open but FB is blocked. They also said it doesn't matter, because
everyone has a smartphone.

Not a great data point, but interesting none the less.

~~~
alagu
These days the main reason for blocking FB - Farmville. It has made people
ludicrously unproductive.

Next thing we could expect is a Farmville in Gmail.

------
intellectronica
Is Google becoming the new Microsoft? Not in the evil sense, but in the lame
me-too products that rely on brute force (their huge install base) and no
innovation to hopelessly try to compete sense.

~~~
cantastoria
Google has always been this way as far as I can tell. They're basically using
Microsoft's old strategy of "clone it and give it away so we can sell more of
Windows" only with Google it's ads.

The difference is everyone still loves them. Microsoft was seen as ruthlessly
destroying their competition. Google is seen as innovative. Bizarre.

~~~
nostrademons
Depends. GMail was fundamentally innovative - do you remember what webmail was
like before it launched? GMail gave us a gig of storage _and_ Google search
over your inbox _and_ threaded conversation view _and_ keyboard shortcuts
_and_ a UI that didn't require page refreshes between each message.

Similarly, Maps was fundamentally innovative. If you went to GMaps c. 2005 and
then went to MapQuest, there was absolutely no comparison. I kept wanting to
drag the map around to see what was just offscreen. And then Maps kept
innovating with satellite imagery, and Street View, and local business labels
on the satellite imagery, and double-click-to-find-the-best-vantage-point.

Then there are a bunch of me-too products that succeed only because its Google
and everyone already uses them.

Unfortunately this includes everything I've done at Google, but I'm hoping
they've set things up for future innovation. Real innovation takes time,
usually 3-4 years. Google's strength has been that they're willing to devote
that time, but you can't have every single product out the door be a hit.

~~~
sfk
I'm afraid I don't agree with your use of the term "innovative". Regarding
Gmail, I'd rather say they managed to clone mutt+procmail for the web in a
reasonable manner.

Regarding Maps, the fundamental operations had been in place since at least
2002 at e.g. <http://www.nl.map24.com/>. Actually I haven't been there for
quite some time, and I think in 2002 their interface was actually better than
now.

~~~
nostrademons
We'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I don't see how anyone
could look at mutt+procmail vs. GMail and say GMail wasn't innovative, or at
nl.map24.com and say GMaps wasn't innovative. Both of those seem ridiculously
hard to use by today's standards.

------
pibefision
I think that it's a great move. GMAIL has 150MM users a month, you can
bootstrap anything with that userbase.

and Wave?

~~~
yungchin
That's what I never got about Wave - that they didn't somehow integrate it
with Gmail, not even loosely.

After I got a Wave account I invited a couple of friends, and they checked it
out - signing in once, and forgetting about the whole service after that. So I
tried including them in a few "waves", but there was no option to get email
notifications of new waves! Of course they never returned, and the next time
'round I'd just email them again...

~~~
roc
I've been thinking that they should initially roll WAVE out as plumbing.

They could transplant GMail/Buzz/Google Talk/etc to run on Wave without
forcing people to learn the interface up-front. Users would be building up
content 'in' Wave and Google would be slowly integrating the features that
Wave makes easy.

Then the Wave interface (the biggest stumbling block for most) can be
introduced as an optional power-user interface; but wholly compatible in case
people want to bounce back and forth as they ease in and backward-compatible
with people who aren't ready to take the plunge. (fully backward compatible,
in the case of other GMail users)

I just don't think Wave is there yet.

~~~
drats
I presume that integration will be what they are aiming at with their
operating system.

------
DanielBMarkham
Wow. Lookout lots of web companies. You're wallowing along in the middle of
the road and this huge truck is barreling down on you at 100 kph. The truck's
name is Google.

For the less metaphorically-inclined, Google has so much money and is doing so
much development that they've reached the point that they are actively trying
to obsolete hundreds of companies. You can certainly argue that perhaps these
companies deserve to be replaced. Google is becoming the Wal-Mart of the web.

~~~
techiferous
They're not necessarily barreling over other smaller companies; sometimes they
buy them which is a welcome exit for the founders.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
I agree. It's a great thing for those companies.

My point is that they have so many resources and so much raw computing power
on the line that almost by accident they can burn to rubble dozens of
different business models.

Overall some consolidation is probably a good thing, but I am continuously
reminded of WalMart. WalMart perfected retail sales in much the same way as
Google is perfecting rich internet applications. WalMart was able to deliver
products cheaper than anybody else. Google in many cases just gives stuff
away. WalMart drove out lots of small shops. Google seems to be doing the
same. WalMart had a goal of dominating the market. Google wants to store every
piece of data on the planet.

I'm perfectly happy shopping at WalMart -- they do a great job of providing me
stuff at the best prices I can find. I'm not so convinced that I am as happy
getting all of my internet data from Google. I'm NOT saying they're some kind
of evil empire, just I'm beginning to feel more and more uncomfortable about
them. It looks like whatever is the flavor of the week there's Google out
there peddling their version of it.

------
pibefision
Check the API (<http://code.google.com/intl/es/apis/buzz/>)

~~~
adrianwaj
I wonder if Google's API docs on the whole are too comprehensive. Most people
just want to get to the meat fast, and then consume it. Twitter's API doc is
one page.

------
agotterer
Doesn't add a Buzz option to my gmail. Working for anyone else?

~~~
Pahalial
If you use the mobile UI and have someone comment on your post, it will send
the thread to your inbox. Trying to reply to that thread will then force-
update your gmail to include Buzz (or at least, it worked for me.)

~~~
portman
This did not work for me, either. _sadTrombone_

------
jfno67
Just tried it out on my Android, can someone tell me why I'll go to Foursquare
now... This is the best checkin interface yet.

~~~
jganetsk
Because Foursquare incentivizes you to use it a hundred ways from Sunday,
including games and promotions.

~~~
jfno67
Yes that could be it, but I can tell you in new cities incentives are not big.
When I see Buzz with Google Local Listings (with coupons), and place page I
feel like I will not be using Foursquare that much. I'm probably wrong though,
I was excited about Wave too.

------
Zak
I find it very odd that they depict the iPhone on top of the N1. To me, that
conveys a position of higher status for Google's competitor and that doesn't
make much sense.

~~~
jkincaid
There are many, many more iPhones and iPod Touches out there than there are
Nexus Ones. Google wants as many people as possible to be using this, so
they're showing these people that it will work with their devices.

They'll save the 'superior device' angle for other features where the size of
the user base is less important (GPS Navigation).

------
mrfabbri
Accessing <http://m.google.com/app/buzz> from an iPhone works whether or not
you see the buzz label in gmail. You can use Firefox with the "User-Agent
Switcher" add-on set on iPhone to try it out.

~~~
jokermatt999
Similarly, buzz.google.com worked on my Droid, despite not having the buzz
link in gmail.

------
highstakefever
What I don't understand is how people seem to be okay with Buzz being built
into gmail. Don't we have enough of social networks that steal our time? Now
we have one in or inbox? Not super excited about that fact.

~~~
robotron
Then turn it off. I'm okay with chat in Gmail - when I want to chat. If I
don't want to chat I simply sign off. Simple enough. Options are good.

~~~
highstakefever
I understand you will be able to turn it off, just like you can logout from
Facebook. That's not the issue. It's the idea of creating something of this
kind in a "holy place" like your inbox.

------
tdmackey
Thought it was a little funny to see that <http://buzz.com/> seems to be a
similar unlaunched service from AT&T with the same name.

It seems they've managed to roll up what a lot of others were doing into a
seemly nicely integrated package. I would like to think that this will give
location based networks the push they need to become more mainstream.

~~~
thwarted
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1079765>

------
albemuth
G1 won't run it, needs Android 2.0+ I guess it's good that they're not letting
old platforms slow down development, but FFS, a bit over a year and the G1
can't run any of the new stuff. They should never have sold it with such weak
hardware... Still waiting on an 850 Nexus :(

------
kloncks
In the picture on the website, why is the Nexus One being covered by the
iPhone?

It should be the other way around.

~~~
eam
I agree! Maybe they're trying to "not be evil".

------
kerringtonx
I like Buzz after using it a bit more on my iTouch (still not available on my
computer yet ... :/ ). Still trying to decide if I like Buzz better than
Foursquare. It's really fun checking in and competing with your friends, but
if you don't live in a populated area like myself, there seems to be not as
much interaction. When I signed on with Buzz, there were already people
interacting. Sharing tips about restaurants, what they were doing for the day,
how they liked Buzz, and etc. Both are definitely fun though! Anyone get to
use it on their PC? How is it??

------
jsz0
I'm going to reserve final judgement until I actually get a chance to use the
service and see the direction Google wants to take it. My first reaction is
not positive. This feels like Google's _Microsoft Money moment_ Go into a
market with an established leader, use your size and dominance to undermine
the competition just because you're the 800lbs gorilla and you need to be fed
at any cost. There doesn't appear to be anything new here. Just a Google logo.

~~~
enneff
Have you looked at the Geo features? The integration with several existing
services? Of course it is not a new idea, but to say "just a Google logo" does
a great disservice to the team who've been working hard on this project.

~~~
jsz0
No, I haven't got it yet. That's why I'm reserving judgement of the actual
service until I can use it. Google's engineers are fantastic and I'm sure it's
a good service. My concerns are purely on the business/competitive side.

------
csmeder
I cant get Buzz to show up in my gmail, what am I doing wrong?

~~~
bockris
Comment further down on this page

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1112969>

~~~
csmeder
thank you

------
ableal
Early warning at Blogoscoped: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1090344>

------
mrtron
It is a well engineered twitter.

Will be interesting to see if it can gain enough momentum to be useful. I am
betting yes - due to the simpler embedding of media.

------
Scott_MacGregor
Now who in here will be the first to develop a slick dedicated Windows desktop
sidebar client for this, or an Outlook plugin?

If it was a Microsoft product, it would probably run right on the desktop in a
sidebar. Then they would have a developers conference for it in Las Vegas with
a free brunch too. [A different promotional stratagy than Google].

------
mmastrac
It's not rolled out to everyone in Gmail, but mobile should work
(<http://m.google.com/app/buzz>) for anyone with an iPhone or Android device.

[edit] I missed an 's' in the URL. Android doesn't seem to like that URL, but
the iPhone does.

~~~
Semiapies
This 404s in my Droid; <http://buzz.google.com> works, though.

------
chintan
Brizzly cloned?

I find that the Buzz interface is highly similar to Brizzly which was similar
to Gmail developed by ex-Googlers working on Gmail/Google Reader. Its like all
deja vu. O God I'm so buzzed out!

------
zitterbewegung
I think this is basically location aware microblogging. This might be pretty
disruptive in the space with the integration and the ease of use. Also, auto
discovery is done pretty well.

------
Semiapies
Google is the new Microsoft in one sense: if they say or announce anything,
geeks will spend more time talking about how they hate/fear/distrust Google
than about the product.

------
jraines
Does anyone know if it works through Maps on Android 1.6? I just got the
update on my G1 and posted an update through Maps, but it doesn't seem to show
up on the Buzz layer.

~~~
loki99
Obviously you need to have 2.0+, which sucks!

------
kesun421
Watched the Buzz video a few times, does it look like a simpler, faster,
easier to understand version of Google Wave???

------
kerringtonx
I'm more excited to use this than Wave. =/

------
chintan
Try the Near-By option on iPhone in NYC.

Its definitely a Foursquare killer.

------
grandalf
oddly I don't see buzz anywhere in my gmail even after clicking on the link to
enable it...

~~~
marciovm123
they don't roll out to everyone simultaneously. think A/B testing.

~~~
grandalf
I must be in the control group...

~~~
grandalf
ok finally got it... a bit underwhelming so far but we'll see.

------
levesque
It cannot even access facebook?

------
prabhu-pd
first it givith then taketh away

------
prabhu-pd
this one's a winner!

------
gcb
google is going the way of older internet giants.

Their main focus is search and adwords ...and more recently snooping dns.

Now instead of letting facebook do their thing and google offering competitive
ads, they choose to do facebook thing.

Now what? They are going to clone all the sites that their users spend more
than 15minutes on?

They`re going to spread their peanut butter too thin.

~~~
badave
It's try to buy, and if that fails, try to compete. At Google's size, it would
be very, very, very difficult to spread their peanut butter too thin, and
their Superbowl Ad indicates that they are focusing on what everyone knows
them best for and only dipping their feet into other pools that they can't buy
into.

------
Joe_Bananas
Yo dawg, I heard you like web 2.0 so I put a web 2.0 in your web 2.0 so you
can web 2.0 while you web 2.0.

~~~
david927
That was both funny and witty. Come on, HN, lighten up!

~~~
david927
Ok, listen up, HN. I love this community because you're smart and ambitious,
but we need to have a talk.

The Winter Olympics (& World Cup) are coming up. If we're lucky and live
beyond our life expectancy, it's one of maybe 20 we could possibly see. 20.
That's how short life is.

A long time ago I was getting into film direction and saw a contest in town
for 8mm film shorts. So I wrote a screenplay, gathered eight of my friends
together, and in one long day, we shot it. Weeks later when it came back from
the labs, I took it to a guy I knew (who was also involved in putting the
contest on) who had a projector. I was so excited. I was so proud of what I
had done. I began rehearsing, in my mind, answers to such questions as, "How
did you achieve such genius with so little background in film?", "What was
your inspiration?", etc. The projector spun the film; I held my breath. We
couldn't see anything; I hadn't used enough light. (In all my books on film
direction, lighting an 8mm didn't come up.) The guy said, as he walked me out,
"But you had fun making it right?" I took it almost as a taunt. I thought,
"Fuck fun. I didn't want fun. I wanted that fucking film to turn out."

So you're on Hacker News because you like technology? That technology is going
to be obsolete in _at most_ a few Winter Olympics from now. You're on HN
because you have a startup? If you have a great idea and you execute well with
a great team... the odds are not even remotely in your favor. Ask anyone in
the business. Not even remotely.

Today when I think back, do you know what I remember from that 8mm film I
made? How much fun my friends and I had making it. We had a blast. That day is
a wonderful, glorious memory. Whether or not the film turned out was always
irrelevant.

Everything you think and love and see and know has an expiration date on it.
20 Olympics -- at most -- if you're lucky. And when you're old and smoking
that last cigar (because fuck it) and you close your eyes, what will you
remember? Do you know? I'll tell you. Not the film. You won't even remember
what the film was about. No, you'll remember the day you shot it. "But you had
fun making it?" Did you? It can sound like a taunt, but it's not. It's
everything. God, be ambitious. Be smart. Good for you. But have fun. Most of
all, have fun.

Laugh, HN. Let your hair down. Have sex. Drink wine from the bottle. Dance
like madman. Have fun. For the love of God. You have 20 and it's all you'll
ever have. Have fun.

