
Want to Remember Everything You'll Ever Learn? Surrender to This Algorithm - naish
http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/magazine/16-05/ff_wozniak
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r7000
I will make a shameless, shameless plug.. (disgusting)

I have been working on a simpler spaced repetition system (the Leitner System
relies on a simple yes/no response) implemented as a wepapp:
<http://flashcarddb.com>

The article mentions the popularity of spaced repititon software in Poland.
And sure enough a large number of my incoming users are from Poland and a few
other European countries that are familiar with the concepts.

Another open source Supermemo alternative is Mnemosyne.

I have thought of adding the option of a more complicated rating system for
grading answers but most new users tend to be relatively new to the idea of
spaced repetition. So, for now, I am keeping it relatively simple.

~~~
Todd
(edit) Sorry. I misread your post. Here's the rest of my original comment:

I've been using SuperMemo off and on for the last ten years. It is by no means
an elegant or user friendly app. However, there is a lot of science behind it
and it's worth checking out by anyone interested in memory. Readers of yc
should have no problem with it.

Another point worth mentioning is that Wozniak has shared his knowledge with
the world. He publishes each algorithm and explains it in detail. He also
writes extensively about memory and learning and it's all available on his
website. He also provides free downloads of older versions of the app.

~~~
r7000
Dude, I meant my reference was a shameless plug. _I_ was doing the plugging.
Sorry if that was unclear!

I couldn't agree more with your points about Wozniak and Supermemo. Wozniak,
Leitner and others were my inspirations. I used their systems while studying
myself.

(Edited the original to make it more unambiguous!)

~~~
Todd
Likewise. Sorry about that.

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mdemare
Strange - I was on the verge of discovering this for myself for my own
language site. I'm already storing the data, but hadn't started with the
number crunching yet.

On another note - isn't it scandalous how inefficient education is? Cramming
all those mind-numbing details in your brain the night before an exam, and
then forgetting 70% of them after a couple of months. Ridiculous and wasteful.

~~~
euccastro
That would be remarkably good retention. I guess it's way worse than that on
average, at least for stuff crammed once with no more interest than passing an
exam.

Back to the main point: yes, school is very inefficient, but I think the
problem of student apathy and disinterest for the subject matter is in more
urgent need of fixing than retention itself.

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mullr
Spaced repetition is killer. It seems to take the work out of remembering
things, leaving nothing but determination. I've been using
<http://kanji.koohii.com> for awhile, which is an excellent implementation of
the technique for remembering the meaning of Japanese characters using a
particular method book. A niche site, to be sure, but an excellent
implementation overall.

I also recommend <http://ichi2.net/anki/>, which has a Japanese focus but is
by no means exclusive to it.

~~~
donw
This is good for me; I'm studying for the JLPT 1, and writing a simple web
application to assist in vocabulary drills. The application is part of my
final project, so I'm not stopping development, but I'll definitely look into
adding some of these timing methods into the system.

Also, just to let you know, I've found that studying kanji on their own is
generally a waste of time; without context, they tend to lose their meaning
quickly. Even if you ask Japanese people to explain kanji, they usually do so
by referencing compounds in which that character is present.

~~~
mullr
Second reply: another interesting use of spaced repetition, in a somewhat
different context, is the AJATT method:
<http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com>. It uses complete sentences as the
cues, thus ensuring valid context all the time.

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whacked_new
Wozniak is an interesting and respectable guy; I have the feeling that he
tries to remember everything, or something close to it. This strategy works
well for declarative memories, but does not generalize with the same
efficiency for other memories.

SuperMemo is an ingenious program with a rotten UI. I have been looking for
better ways to do this and would be interested in speaking with anybody else
with similar interests.

~~~
mleonhard
Maybe this technique could apply to other kinds of memories when combined with
lifelogging. I could video tape all the time and then choose certain portions
of video to retain in memory by review.

~~~
whacked_new
Absolutely.

However, a video taped portion of your life contains memories encoded in many
different modalities (as opposed to, say, information on flashcards, which is,
for the most part, factual). This mixture of memories makes an algorithm
specifically designed for a certain type of memory a suboptimal one. That's
not to say it's not useful, but there is a lot of improvement to make in this
area (and I would very much like to be a part of it! :-) )

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projectileboy
Pimsleur language CDs use this technique; I believe they call it "graduated
recall" or some such. It's been very effective for me. Of course, it's not
fine-tuned for the individual, but it's still pretty good.

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herdrick
On the surface this appears to be one of the best things ever posted here. I'd
like to see some other references.

The article says the forgetting point is different for everyone, and is
different for different sorts of info. Does the software somehow find the
right point? Or is the variance not enough to worry about?

~~~
whacked_new
The software finds the right point. The variance is _also_ not enough to worry
about. Over time, you get an approximation, which is not perfect, and I would
go as far as to say that it will never be. Nevertheless, the approximations
are good.

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bumbledraven
The inventor of the ideas behind SuperMemo has a fascinating site in which he
explains how he uses the same principles to organize his life.
<http://www.supermemo.com/english/contents.htm>

For instance, he states that "lifetime minimum cost of remembering a single
well-formulated piece of knowledge can easily be estimated to fall into the
range from 30 seconds to 5 minutes (minimum cost is the cost that is achieved
using the optimally spaced repetition schedule). This estimation can be used
in cost-benefit analysis in deciding which mission-critical pieces of
knowledge should be subject to learning based on spaced repetition."

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suboptimal
I love this article and wish there was more like it--thanks for posting.

I also wish Piotr Wozniak would write a book (even though he'd probably
consider it a waste of time). Work like his is so important, and positive, and
humanitarian. Even if he's just doing what he enjoys, I believe we're all the
better for it.

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andreyf
Those 7 pages cannot be necessary. Could someone sum it up in a paragraph with
wikipedia references?

~~~
whacked_new
Solve this problem automatically, and you have a viable startup!

~~~
paulgb
While we're waiting, zapreader (<http://zapreader.com>) solves half the
problem.

~~~
yters
Also check out dictator, a more robust form of zapreader, but not for
browsing. I think it helps me read alot faster.

~~~
paulgb
Neat, I've been looking for something like that. Thanks.

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redorb
(on reading..)stopping the instant his mind begins to drift or his
comprehension falls too low and then moving on to the next item in the queue.

brilliant idea in itself. (bought a copy at $19)

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paulhart
The logic behind this, "acquire a piece of knowledge, then don't forget it" is
similar to the description one of my university professors gave for learning
how to fly: "fall over and don't hit the ground."

I suspect that physics may remain a limiting factor for the professor's
suggestion, but SuperNote is an intriguing application. I believe the Pimsleur
language courses use a similar method of 'staggered reminding' to encourage
your retention of knowledge.

~~~
ssanders82
In case you were curious of the source of that comment, it's from "The
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".

"There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in
learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Pick a nice day, [The
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy] suggests, and try it."

Douglas Adams was awesome.

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cor2madera
fascinating article. wonder if it also applies to correcting wrong
memorization \-- ie to break a mental habit, space it out according to this
formula.

~~~
whacked_new
As opposed to creating one stimulus-response association, correcting a wrong
association would involve two (or more processes). One, reinforcing the
correct association; two, not enforcing (or inhibiting) the wrong association.

Reinforcing the right one can be spaced, but breaking the habit is harder. One
study involving OCD patients achieved this via a staged process. I forgot the
details, but essentially, you train yourself to use your bad habit as a cue
for another behavior, which diverts yourself from the result of your bad
habit. Something like, if I wanted to stop washing my hands obsessively, I
would put a message on the faucet that said "take a walk!" Then, every time I
get the urge, I would take a walk, etc. It's obviously not this simple, but
that should illustrate how reshaping old behavior is different from creating
new ones.

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elai
Isn't this really good for route learning? Which outside of a limited few
situations (vocab, exams) is the most useless type of learning there is?

~~~
SwellJoe
Given that the vocabulary (by a loose definition of "vocabulary") of any new
skill is a significant portion of the barrier to becoming proficient, I would
say that making that aspect a solved problem would be a miraculous improvement
in learning efficiency.

For example, learning a new programming language (once you know how to program
in general) is at least 50% vocabulary. It's learning the keywords and syntax,
library functions, etc. Likewise for most kinds of skills. Sailing is largely
knowing the names, the knots, and the laws (plus practice). Driving is laws,
and a few basic automotive concepts. Law is lots and lots of cases. Medicine
is lots and lots of anatomy. All of these things are memorization, and that
memorization is a barrier to expertise.

Memorization is clearly _not_ the most useless type of learning. It's core to
almost every skill.

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jobeyonekenobi
Touched on slightly before, with no answers - however, I feel that the
question as to different peoples memory retention is a valid one. I know
myself that being Dyspraxic, I have quite a low retention rate when it comes
to short term memory. Could be of use to set a base level of memory retention
and then use that to define the length of time between repetitions?

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DenisM
Free and free alternative - <http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/principles.php>

Comparative review - [http://www.nihongoperapera.com/spaced-repetition-memory-
soft...](http://www.nihongoperapera.com/spaced-repetition-memory-
software.html)

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TrevorJ
It will put America and silicon valley to shame if this guy can't get some
capital to take this to a web-based system with a better interface. This
deserves to be used and available.

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kschrader
Is there a Mac version?

~~~
r7000
"Genius" is an excellent Mac flashcard program with spaced repetition.

[http://lifehacker.com/software/featured-mac-
download/memoriz...](http://lifehacker.com/software/featured-mac-
download/memorize-anything-with-genius-315064.php)

<http://web.mac.com/jrc/Genius/>

A lot of Mac people sing its praises.

~~~
dreish
Should I be suspicious of those glowing reviews, given as the article says,
"[the] problem here, from the psychologists' perspective, is that the user's
sense of achievement is exactly what we should most distrust"?

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prakash
Thanks for sharing, very interesting article.

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TrevorJ
update: here is the online version! <http://www.supermemo.net>

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wumi
does Rosetta stone employ something similar?

~~~
epall
Nope. The article specifically states that Rosetta Stone violates most of the
principles the learning research has shown.

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michelson01
i don't know... the algorithm killed jeeves

~~~
michelson01
whoo... tough crowd :)

~~~
icey
I would venture that most of us visit for insight, not repartee.

~~~
Todd
Touché

