
The Dactyl-ManuForm Keyboard - autocorr
https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform
======
bboygravity
I'm currently in the process of building one of these Manuform keyboards. If
anybody else wants to build one, here are a few helpful things that took me
hours to find:

1\. By far the most readable closure script. Has more features than any other
script I found (killer feature for me: wide pinky buttons):
[https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-
keyboard/tree/refaktor](https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-
keyboard/tree/refaktor)

2\. The same script as a web-form without exposing every parameter. Generates
openSCAD 3D files:
[http://dactyl.siskam.link/manuform](http://dactyl.siskam.link/manuform)

3\. Nice assembly guide 1: [https://nickgreen.info/dactyl-manuform-build-
log/](https://nickgreen.info/dactyl-manuform-build-log/)

4\. Nice assembly guide 2: [https://medium.com/swlh/complete-idiot-guide-for-
building-a-...](https://medium.com/swlh/complete-idiot-guide-for-building-a-
dactyl-manuform-keyboard-53454845b065)

The original Dactyl and Manuform scripts lack commenting, are hard to
understand and lack some cool features.

------
ketzo
This is pretty awesome.

For those who haven't explored ergonomic keyboards, 1) you should! take care
of your hands! and 2) shit gets preeeeetty wild out there.

For further reading, check out ortholinear keyboards like the Planck [1], or
crazier split designs like the ErgoDox EZ [2], or even "keywell" (or just
"pit") designs like the Kinesis Advantage2 [3]. All require a learning curve
(obviously!), but they offer some pretty immediately noticeable (in my
experience) advantages for your hand health.

One of my favorite design items are thumb clusters like you see on the last
two links here: why should your thumb be limited to just spacebar, and why
should both of your thumbs do the same thing?

[1] [https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/planck](https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/planck)
[2] [https://ergodox-ez.com/](https://ergodox-ez.com/) [3] [https://kinesis-
ergo.com/shop/advantage2/](https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/)

~~~
chipperyman573
I have not heard good things about the ergodox's thumb keys. A lot of people
say you need to stretch your thumbs pretty far to use them (even if you have
big hands), which kind of works against the goal of not putting stress on your
hands.

~~~
lawn
It seems it's very polarising.

I personally hate it and I find only a single key on the cluster is
comfortable for me. I do have to do big stretches or move the whole hand for
the other keys.

There are many better alternatives out there.

~~~
phaus
>There are many better alternatives out there.

Its just like buying an office chair or a pair of shoes. Its not that there
are better alternatives, is more like everyone should find a keyboard that's
comfortable and optimal for them as an individual. The Ergodox-EZ is a great
keyboard, just not a great one for you.

BTW do you have really small hands? Based on the size of it and my experience
I would assume that most people could comfortable hit the two larger keys on
the thumb cluster, they are right next to each other.

~~~
lawn
You're right that it's subjective. I do think the Ergodox is much better than
standard keyboards, I just find the large number of (for me) unused keys
detrimental.

Yeah I have slightly smaller hands. I also have problems with my right thumb
that makes me extra sensitive.

Btw if someone wants to compare the key positions of popular keyboards see
this site:
[https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/](https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/)

------
leovander
More split keyboards:

\- Corne: You usually have to solder it yourself, and source the
switches/caps. A few sites will build it for you. [0][1[[2]

\- LilyPro: Same as above. [3][4]

\- Georgo/GeorgoPlex: [7]

Trackball: Someone mentioned a vertical mouse, those are really great, but I
have been pushing trackballs on a few colleagues. A good in between is the
newer logitech, that has a tilt mechanism, but its a thumbball. [5] You can
find more options in at r/trackballs [6]. I can recommend the "Kensington
Expert Wireless Trackball Mouse" and "CST L-Trac Blue Trackball", although the
latter, the original company shutdown and are being manufactured by xkeys.
There's also an open source trackball, ploopy [8].

P.s. buying keyboards and soldering them are great for a quick fix, but this
hobby gets expensive quick. I am waiting on a few group buys; another 65%
keyboard, another split keyboard and a few more key cap sets.

P.s.s. group buys can be a hit or miss (mostly hit), treat them like
kickstarters, and maybe you'll get your parts in a year or so. At least in
r/mechanicalkeyboards, a few users have recently been complaining a tad more
about not seeing the final product v.s. renders.

[0] [https://github.com/foostan/crkbd](https://github.com/foostan/crkbd)

[1] [https://keyhive.xyz/shop/hotswap-corne-
helidox](https://keyhive.xyz/shop/hotswap-corne-helidox)

[2] [https://www.littlekeyboards.com/products/corne-mx-hotswap-
ki...](https://www.littlekeyboards.com/products/corne-mx-hotswap-kit)

[3] [https://keyhive.xyz/shop/lily58](https://keyhive.xyz/shop/lily58)

[4] [https://github.com/kata0510/Lily58](https://github.com/kata0510/Lily58)

[6]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/)

[7] [https://www.gboards.ca/](https://www.gboards.ca/)

[8] [https://www.ploopy.co/](https://www.ploopy.co/)

~~~
aeontech
Ok, gboards are something straight out of Snow Crash. I didn't know I needed
this, thanks a lot :)

~~~
leovander
We've been joking around about getting long trrs cables, wrapping around the
back side of our office chairs and attaching the keyboards to the arm rests,
go all Picard.

QMK supports mouse/trackball support, I think gboard and a few others support
adding a blackberry track ball and we'd be aces.

------
chipperyman573
A while back I got diagnosed with carpal and cubital tunnel. After many, many
hours of research, I eventually bought a Quefrency from Keebio
([https://keeb.io/pages/assembly-service](https://keeb.io/pages/assembly-
service) has the premade ones) to see if it would help. I can now confidently
say, if you are worried about getting CT, or you have it and want something
easier on your hands, you _need_ to check this out. Seriously, for most people
on here an injury like CT can make you lose your job. The split form factor
_really_ helps alleviate the pain. Not bending your wrists or elbows helps way
more than you can imagine. Even now my hands will still hurt if I use a
regular keyboard but I can type on my split board all day long. The Quefrency
also has the advantage of not being a different form factor (like the Dactyl),
it's just a standard 60% split staggered layout (the smaller form factor helps
reduce finger travel as well, but imo it's mostly the split). Plus, it just
runs off a pro micro so you can flash your own firmware very easily (it runs
on QMK which is open source)

I've also heard good things about the levinson and nyquist but I haven't
personally tested them. I have also used an Iris for a while and like it a
lot, but it looks like they're backordered for now. The viterbi looks a little
big imho, but if you want a big split board it would definitely be a good
option.

I actually am somewhat in the keyboard business right now (I got inspired by
how well it worked, and it's really fun!), if anyone has any questions or
needs some recommendations feel free to AMA.

BTW, if you end up going with a different form factor, be ready to type at
10-20WPM for at least a week or two. When I got my first ortho board, I typed
at 13WPM and gained back roughly 5-10WPM a week. You can't use a standard
layout while you learn, either, or you lose a ton of the muscle memory.

~~~
the_pwner224
About a year ago I bought half of a Nyquist (6x5 - 5 is standard height minus
the F-row, which is not a big deal since you have a second layer) and a
Vieterbi (7x5). That gives enough space to fit a full 60% keyboard layout, but
unlike the Quefrency the keys are in a grid instead of staggered. Getting used
to it didn't take long for me.

I can use the computer _faster_ and more efficiently than with a full-size
keyboard, since you have a second layer to put buttons onto and so your
fingers don't need to move (it's completely programmable; add 30 layers if you
want). I had two buttons, one where the Fn key is on laptops (lower left), and
one where the enter key normally is (mid right), to switch to the second
layer, where I had WASD,QE,RF = arrow keys, home/end, pgup/dn, and hjkl =
arrow keys. This is very useful. And stuff like printscreen, media controls,
etc. no longer require stretching your fingers or moving your hands. I had
space in the corners on both thumbs, and backspace/enter right next to those
on the left/right hands. Also useful and saves your pinky from long stretches
to backspace. Positioning it naturally aligned with your arms & wrists is also
great.

Overall, highly recommend the Viterbi - which would give you an extra column
beyond what I had. But not sure how it would work in half paired with the new
Nyquist revision; the Viterbi hasn't been updated yet iirc.

I built that one with loud clicky Cherry Blue switches; recently I switched to
the newer revision Nyquist with quiet Matias/Alps tactile switches. The
switches are great but very few keycap options; the official ones make it not
that quiet since they're not a perfect fit with the keys and thus rattle. The
Blues were great but eventually the loudness starts to become just slightly
painful; now I use the `bucklespring` program on my computer to simulate it.
The new Nyquist has the microcontroller built into the PCB, which simplifies
assembly, and adds support for key backlighting, which is useful in the dark.
The lack of the 13th column really hurts; with the Nyquist+Viterbi you get a
full keyboard with stuff like the F-keys and arrow keys on the second layer.
With this I need to put things like +=-_\ and []{} on the second layer. This
effectively makes it a triple-layer setup for typing, since you need to use
both shift and Fn to write characters, whereas previously Fn was for moving
around and doing actions. Even after a long while to get used to it my brain
often gets confused and I have to pause for a few seconds to try to figure out
how to insert the character. But at the same time lighting is essential (to
me) for working at night, and even if that wasn't an issue I don't want to
spend another $120 on making a new Viterbi or Nyquist/Viterbi hybrid with
quieter keyswitches.

So overall the Nyquist seems like the sort of thing hardcore keyboard
enthusiasts would buy, and less suitable for programmers (maybe OK for other
people). You can head over to /r/mechanicalkeyboards to find plenty of weirdos
who would spend $50 on a single keycap and keep a collection of keyboards with
30 keys total.

If you don't mind sharing, what do you do in the kb business?

------
dancek
This is an amazing keyboard, and the best thing: it's really easy to modify to
suit your needs. I got to try a friend's Dactyl so I had a general idea of
what doesn't feel ergonomic to me about it. Then I took some measurements of
my fingers, moved the columns around accordingly, somewhat flattened the whole
structure and printed it. And got the most ergonomic keyboard I could imagine.
(Gee, I really should solder the other side one so I could use it... :s)

Of course this is a lot of work and not for most people. But the point is that
3D modeling _anything_ from scratch is near impossible for a first timer, yet
the dactyl family is easy to modify for anyone who can code.

------
joshspankit
Here’s a question I’ve been pondering, and I’m curious about the community’s
thoughts:

 _To what extent should the distance between keys be customized to the length
of the user’s fingers?_

For example, being 6’1”, I have larger than average hands, with wider than
average distance between the tips of my fingers, and if I pay attention, I can
feel how my fingers feel cramped on the standard 104-key layout I’ve been
using my whole life.

Similarly, I see comments here about the differences between people, and the
sniff test makes me think it’s almost all about the different lengths of
user’s fingers.

------
devin
I must take this moment to extol the virtues of vertical mice. I had severe
pain in my forearm and wrist. I switched to a vertical mouse and that pain
went away immediately.

I personally use a now 8? year old Evoluent vertical mouse.

Tell your friends and family. It's totally unnatural for you to twist your arm
to hold a normal flat mouse. The vertical mouse is natural and like shaking
someone's hand. Try it right now: Hold your hand out like you're going to
shake someone's hand, and then slowly turn your hand to hold a flat mouse.
Feel that tension? It's terrible for you.

~~~
Symbiote
I recently bought an Evoluent vertical mouse.

I'm not using it all the time, but one of the best features for a Linux user
is the separate middle button. I find mouse-wheel buttons are often stiff,
which is uncomfortable when copy-pasting a lot of text using the middle
button. The Evoluent has a separate middle button, and a click on the wheel.

------
lrpublic
I’m sure I’m one of many people here searching for the ultimate keyboard.

I missed the kick starter for the Keyboardio Atreus.

I’m looking forward to the launch so I can order one retail.

In short it’s a split layout ortholinear similar to the Planck.

Two killer features for me are Bluetooth (and wired) and QMK firmware that
allows layers.

[https://shop.keyboard.io/](https://shop.keyboard.io/)

~~~
emmanueloga_
Atreus is a split kb but on a single piece, so... not quite? For me the nice
thing of a split keyboard is to have each half line up with my shoulders,
feels really comfy to type like this (this way my arms rest on my chair's
armrests most of the time).

I looked for a while for a nice split mechanical keyboard and I found all sort
of crazy things, including the ones from [1]. In the end, I decided to try the
kinesis gaming kb [2] and I really like it! (so much so I even got one for my
brother :-) It has some cool macro recording keys and extra buttons to map and
other features. Caveat: it is wired.

1:
[http://reddit.com/r/mechanicalkeyboards](http://reddit.com/r/mechanicalkeyboards)
2: [https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/](https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/)

~~~
enoch_r
The Atreus is by far my favorite keyboard, I have a Keyboardio that I never
use because the Atreus is so great.

The key is to pull it off your desk and put it in your lap. You end up typing
with your hands on your thighs, which feels quite natural and relaxed.

------
1MachineElf
I have 3 pairs of the "skeletons" 3D printed, but have never gotten around to
the hand-wiring part... It's hassle and one mistake leading to a shorted
microcontroller will mean A LOT of desoldering.

~~~
jstanley
It's unlikely that you'd make a mistake that would damage the microcontroller.
The most likely failure modes are a key that never activates, or a key that is
stuck activated, or a row/column that never activates, or a row/column that is
stuck activated.

In the case of a broken row/column, if you can't find the problem visually,
then you're stuck binary-searching your connections until you find where it
is, but at least that's only O(log N) desoldering work.

------
zepto
Does anyone have any recommendations for one handed keyboards that are
practical?

~~~
ves
The only one handed keyboard I know of is the one made by matias.

~~~
bjoli
Which imo currently makes the best tactile dampened mechanical switches as
well. Their quiet click switch is silent and tactile, with actually solid
tactility (as opposed to just about every other tactile switch out there).

People have had some reliability issues though, so it's a mixed bag. They have
recently gotten some new tooling, so hopefully they will start making
keyboards that look somewhat not like a shit 90s keyboard.

~~~
ves
Yeah, I love their switches but blew three of them in two years which is
pretty unacceptable. I’ve used cherries far longer and never had that problem.

~~~
bjoli
I still hope they can fix their issues. I am not paying 150 bucks for a
keyboard that might stop working properly without reason. Then I much rather
get a high quality rubber dome board. The tactility in those is generally fine
(at least better than cherry MX brown), even though I am no fan of having to
bottom out.

I am more interested in the newest addition to the unicomp portfolio. The "new
model m" and their upcoming TKL boards seem like something I will like :)

------
Syzygies
The Dactyl/Manuform keyboard is a shining totem of one of the deeper rabbit
holes out there.

I know; I made it back out alive. My aspirational keyboard is a GergoPlex. I
own other mechanical keyboards, such as a Planck EZ and an ErgoDox EZ. My
actual daily driver is a Leopold FC660C with Topre Silent 45g rubber dome
switches, modified with a Hasu FC660C Controller which can be programmed using
QMK (or TMK) firmware. My layout is no longer taking most of my time. I use
"one finger each hand" chording and "tap/hold" keys to access many custom
layers for controlling my computer and editing in VSCode. My fingers rarely
move more than one keycap off home row; my thumbs don't get much work.

When I'm evaluating a new cookbook I compare recipes I know cold. For
comparison, "old school" shaving is another rabbit hole that I survived. What
habit stayed with me? A brush and Mitchell´s Wool Fat Shaving Soap. If this
has the ring of truth for you, you might draw my same conclusions about
mechanical keyboards.

Years ago I owned three Kinesis Advantage keyboards. In a way, I loved them. I
got rid of them because of too many systematic issues (stuck modifier keys,
for example) one could trace to primitive USB hardware they could't afford to
redesign. Their new internals might be better.

Every so often I'd try a mechanical keyboard to see what I was missing. I
wouldn't spend enough, or get wrist rests to adjust to the higher keycaps.
Only the better keyboards and switches are worth the trouble; I got hooked
once I finally spent enough.

Our species wants to meld with machines. Many of us wish we could immerse our
hands in nutrients and grow physical connections to our machines. I've met
computer scientists working on brain implants; they talk about Alzheimer’s to
get grants but their eyes are clearly on the horizon. The mind urge to do this
instead in software and custom hardware is irrepressible. One needs to
appreciate this to understand the levels of obsession in the keyboard rabbit
hole. It's a realm where we all can be Thomas Edison.

Your results may vary, but many people conclude that the feel of Topre rubber
dome switches is vastly superior to any of the hundreds of mechanical switches
now available. This is an obsession killer. Why? You can't buy Topre switches
separately. No one makes replacement keycaps, and the adaptors for standard
keycaps impair the keyboard feel. The stock keycaps are fine but dull-looking,
but what touch typist ever looks at their keyboard? Still, the majority of
keyboard forum posts proudly show off custom keycaps. If one were to
cannabilize Topre keycaps from an existing keyboard, the printed circuit
boards are much harder to design. So one can't experiment with novel designs,
such as the Dactyl/Manuform.

This leaves customizing the layout, which the Hasu FC660C Controller makes
possible. Getting out of that rabbit is a separate problem, for which I don't
have good advice. I had been fighting a basic urge to site my consciousness in
my hands, a defining identity for our species. I wanted to be outside
woodworking, rather than inside programming. Customizing my keyboard was a
trick, to get my nose back in the kibble bowl. One day, I was satisfied with
my layout, and I moved on. Now, I'm struggling with the urge to write a new
programming language, rather than just coding the project I want to finish. I
don't have hand issues requiring a more radical ergonomic design, but that may
be partly that I don't move my fingers far off home row, even for modifier
keys.

~~~
ecliptik
I built a GergoPlex a couple months ago and really enjoy it. I don't use it
100%, but switch to it for a few hours a day to get practice. I really like
the chording features; "sd" for backspace, "cv" for tab, and others that I've
customized using QMK to my particular tastes.

Originally the switches were Choc browns, but for this board they're a bit too
heavy, and I went with gChoc switches that are super light and work better for
chords and layers.

One issue I have is how low profile it is. I don't have a case or anything to
raise it up and my wrists are either floating on the desk and it takes getting
used to. There are some custom cases (like the gHeavy) but they're either
expensive or back-ordered due to COVID.

------
fortran77
NKRO?

