
Nissan Admits Internal Emissions-Test Results were Falsified - blawson
https://www.wsj.com/articles/nissan-admits-emission-test-data-was-falsified-1531139749
======
neurotech1
Non-Paywall archived version:

[http://archive.is/IoaKQ](http://archive.is/IoaKQ)

------
danielvf
This isn't what you think it is from the headline.

This is not a case of Nissan software engineers writing emissions test defeat
code. Rather, this is some Nissan factory workers faking internal emissions
test results that are done on every completed car. Only about 1,000 cars were
affected, and almost all of these cars still met regulatory emissions limits -
the targets they were trying to meet were Nissan's stricter internal
standards.

~~~
neogodless
> Other than one model still under investigation, Nissan said all of the
> affected vehicles met Japanese auto standards. The data alterations were
> made by staff to meet Nissan’s own stricter internal standards, it said.

Good catch. This comment should probably be higher, because I don't think the
majority is reading the news that way.

~~~
degenerate
> _I don 't think the majority is reading the news that way_

More like, "I don't think the headlines are written to portray the news that
way"

I put the blame, always, on sensationalist clickbait headlines from dishonest
news organizations. They are competing for your attention and clicks, so the
headline is often flat out _wrong_.

~~~
bartread
Quite, and the first two paragraphs of the article, which are all I can read
because I'm not a WSJ subscriber - which I suspect will be the case for many
here - do nothing to dispel the sensationalist interpretation.

(As an aside I'm starting to opine that posting WSJ articles here may be bad
form for this very reason.)

~~~
kryogen1c
I've only been lurking a short while, but Ive been finding WSJ to be
relatively unreliable.

------
godelski
As software engineers/computer people, we have to have ethical standards. If
you participate in writing code like the one in the VW case then you are not
only complacent but active in fraud.

Engineers have a code of ethics. If you were to knowingly build an unsafe
bridge then you would be liable for the damage and injuries it caused if/when
it failed. This is true even if your boss told you to do it. You not only have
a moral/ethical obligation to not build that bridge, but also a legal one.

As we write software we need to keep these things also in mind. We are writing
things that affect peoples lives. That could kill people. That affect the
environment. We need to hold ourselves to the same moral obligations as other
engineers. We have a duty to prevent harming people when we write our
software.

If you have no stand to refuse to do the work then it is your duty to report
such actions. First up the chain, and if that is rejected, then to the media.
It is also your duty to report it if you have refused and you see it still
happening. There are whistleblower rights in place to protect you.

~~~
martythemaniak
Software engineers don't understand they're not professionals. I mean, they
describe and think of themselves as such, but they are not legally such.

Being a "professional" legally means that you're given exclusive rights to
perform some economic activity and in return for this (usually) lucrative
right, you have a great number of obligations - being responsible for your
work (ie, facing the possibility of never being able to perform said economic
activity legally again), an enforceable code of ethics, an dispute /
resolution process etc, steep fees, continuing education, an accreditation
exam, etc.

Software engineers by and large do not want the obligations and restrictions
of being a real profession, so no, they don't have any special ethics or rules
to report or do anything in these cases beyond what a designer or secretary
would do.

~~~
mark212
I've never heard of this legal definition of "professional" that you put
forward. Where is this in state or federal law?

In law school, we were taught that a professional has obligations that go
beyond his or her own self interest. Unlike a real estate developer or a
widget manufacturer, an attorney has an obligation to do what's right for the
client even if that causes the attorney to lose money or imposes a competitive
advantage. Attorneys, for example, can't engage in the kinds of advertising
speech that would be entirely lawful if done by a car dealership or furniture
store.

This traditional definition is hundreds of years older than the bar exam or
ABA code of ethics, and older than formal graduate law school (a 20th Century
American invention). All of that came later, after lawyers understood
themselves differently.

I would encourage people who write code -- software engineers, developers,
coders, hackers, however one chooses to describe this work -- to think of
themselves as professionals with obligations that go beyond their own self
interest.

~~~
fma
I would imagine OP is referring to "Professional Engineer".

[https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-
pe](https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe)

Every single design, bridge, etc is certified by a Professional Engineer. Your
ass is on the line. I don't mean just being fired from your job - but jail
time.

Per the website:

"A century ago, anyone could work as an engineer without proof of competency.
In order to protect the public health, safety, and welfare, the first
engineering licensure law was enacted in 1907 in Wyoming. Now every state
regulates the practice of engineering to ensure public safety by granting only
Professional Engineers (PEs) the authority to sign and seal engineering plans
and offer their services to the public. "

I suspect, and hope, software used critically have the same. Yes it's more
bureaucracy and overhead...but being in software, I know any joe schmoe can
walk on and develop code without oversight.

I'm not saying if you're making the next twitter, that you need a PE. Or that
every developer needs to have a PE license - but like other industries there
is one PE per X amount of non-PE engineers.

Due to the Threac-25 incident
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25))
there are standards for medical software
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304)).

I'm not in medical so I don't know how widely adopted, or how strict it is
adhered to. But it might be IEC 62304 needs to be branched out.

~~~
ghaff
PEs exist for many branches of engineering. Including software. But the PE for
software engineers is apparently being discontinued due to lack of interest.

~~~
pitaa
Yes, NCEES (the body that administers the Engineering licensing exams
nationwide in the US) is discontinuing their Software Engineering exam next
year because only ~80 people have taken it since it was created in 2013.

I think the biggest problem they had was that despite having the exam, not
many states actually issue Professional Engineer licenses in the Software
Engineering discipline. Because of this, I don't see why anyone (in those
states) would bother taking the exam if they can't actually get a license and
use the title "Professional Engineer".

~~~
ghaff
I forgot licenses were by state. It's probably also the case that software
engineers don't normally have to "sign off" on things for regulators in a
formal way as is the case in other areas of engineering. So, other than having
a title to stick on your business card, taking the PE exam doesn't buy you a
whole lot whereas it's virtually required for other engineering branches.

------
fein
The general assumption at the time when VW was put under a microscope for
these issues is that everyone is cheating, VAG just got caught first.

What stinks seems to be the way the regulations are being implemented moreso
than what sort of detours the manufacturers can take to avoid them.

I won't be surprised when we see more auto makers added to the list, however I
wonder if anyone will criticize the regulations instead of shaming auto
manufacturers.

Here's a non paywalled BBC article:
[https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44763905](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44763905)

~~~
hervature
Completely agree that what is lacking here is the regulations. I have tried to
argue (often unsuccessfully) that VW did not commit fraud, that the numbers
reported by the tests were 100% accurate. The problem being that the way the
car is tested is not even remotely similar to how people drive. The clear fix
to me is to simply give normal people free leases for a short period of time
and generate something similar to
[http://www.fuelly.com/](http://www.fuelly.com/) . The only way to cheat that
is to convince people to drive more efficiently, seems like a win.

~~~
mikeash
Emissions tests are different from fuel efficiency tests, and in fact are
often at odds with each other. A more efficient car doesn’t necessarily have
better emissions, and there’s no easy way for a typical driver to measure
their emissions.

~~~
hervature
Thank you for the extra insight, I may have had the wrong conclusion but I
think the logic still follows. From this system I outlined, the manufacturers
would be forced to alter designs to get the desired emissions during normal
driving conditions. This is the whole spirit of the regulation right?

~~~
mikeash
My point is that the system you outline doesn’t work, because ordinary drivers
can’t check their own emissions. It would be fine for fuel consumption since
that’s easily measured, but emissions requires special equipment and careful
testing.

------
fixermark
So at what point do we stop trusting auto manufacturers to run these
calculations and start mandating it be done by third-parties with different
incentive structures?

------
anonu
This puts a dark stain on Carlos Ghosn's previously model career. My bet would
be that Renault will be outed next with similar falsification of data.

~~~
dopamean
I'm totally not discounting the seriousness of what has been done but I do
question how dark of a stain this will ultimately be. Especially if it turns
out many other car companies have done the same thing.

~~~
thinkling
How serious is it? They falsified results for _internal_ testing and the cars
still passed regulations.

~~~
dopamean
I was trying to avoid making a point about the seriousness of it because I
don't think I'm in a position to accurately judge that.

------
S_A_P
Nissan has gone from being a sought after sports car brand to the second worst
manufacturer in Japan. They are lucky that Mitsubishi makes cars in that
respect. After Infiniti took the near premium market, Nissan went down market
and now makes cars that are sold to subprime buyers en masse. I remember when
the early to mid 90s 300zx turbo came out I put that car on a pedestal as a
semi attainable near super car. Now they just make commodity crap cars that
all look exactly the same. Sad to see this decline.

~~~
ihsw2
Are they crap because they all look the same? Altimas may look bland as hell
but they're built to last.

~~~
S_A_P
Not saying that bland styling is making them crap. That is just to make them
commodity cars. They are crap because they took away any sporting premise that
they brand was built on by forcing CVT transmissions as the only option for
most of their line up. Maybe the altima will run a long time, but it will also
run with faded and sagging plastic parts, it will be a rattle trap with cheap
plastic interiors and several generations old technology inside. Cars made by
Kia and Hyundai that were laughed at a decade ago now FAR SURPASS nissan in
quality and fit/finish.

------
bsparker
Pay wall. Anyone have a link to a cached version?

~~~
dmvinson
Best service for paywalled articles from my experience
[https://outline.com/TF7GJv](https://outline.com/TF7GJv)

~~~
ibdf
Thanks! But how does one know the url?

~~~
rando444
You go to the main website and plug in the paywalled URL.

The person you are responding to is just saving others that step.

~~~
ableal
I went back up top, clicked on the example button, and it yielded
[https://outline.com/6ps979](https://outline.com/6ps979) "The Fasinatng…
Fascinating History of Autocorrect"

(From Wired in 2014, totally off-topic, but with a few amusing illustrations
in case you need cheering up from the sadness here.)

------
jacquesm
Just for some perspective:

[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/06/us/glider-trucks-
loophole...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/06/us/glider-trucks-loophole-
pruitt.html)

Reading that it looks to me as if VW should ask for their money back.

The double standard and hypocrisy incredible.

"One year’s worth of truck sales was estimated to release 13 times as much
nitrogen oxide as all of the Volkswagen diesel cars with fraudulent emissions
controls, a scheme that resulted in a criminal case against the company and
more than $4 billion in fines."

------
feefie
Articles like these just makes this wikipedia page even more exciting:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_banning_foss...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_banning_fossil_fuel_vehicles#List_of_countries)

Are you thinking Norway hitting 2025 is unrealistic being only 7 years away? A
video from last year states electric car sales there are already near 30% of
new car sales:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSjYra7cYqY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSjYra7cYqY)

------
Eridrus
Does anyone have an estimate on how these scandals would have effected down
stream climate/particulate modelling? (I'm not totally sure what emissions
were lowered)

------
dmvinson
How rigorous are Japan's laws/punishments expected to be for this? Relative to
the Volkswagen emissions scandal which, correct me if I'm wrong, led to
decently harsh punishments for those involved at the top level.

~~~
sleepychu
> _Nissan said all of the affected vehicles met Japanese auto standards. The
> data alterations were made by staff to meet Nissan’s own stricter internal
> standards, it said._

Seems unlikely that there will be any criminal liability unless Nissan wants
to sue it's own employees.

------
easytiger
Odd isn't it that no american companies are being dragged through hell for
this.

------
onetimemanytime
question: is it even possible to meet the emission standards and still have a
decent /affordable car? Once one fakes, the others have two options, one of
them is joining them.

At least the DOJ now just has to change the names from VW filings

~~~
intopieces
Hybrids, plug-ins and full electrics are not new, not expensive, are more
reliable, and meet all emissions standards.

------
known
Isn't it possible to detect this fraud by measuring external emissions?

------
jimnotgym
Who is next in the emmisions scandal? Ford? GM? Tesla?

~~~
xutopia
The tests are especially made for ICE cars. Tesla is electric.

------
erikb
At one point we need to ask if the emission requirements are realistic, if
everybody is cheating on them.

------
calimac
how much of this foul play is partially attributed to the absolutely insane
54.4 mpg fleet average?

How the hell were auto makers going to achieve this insane requirement in less
than a decade?

The players like VW and Nissan and

GM played the game of plug in hybrid to change the formula of MPG by
calculating in the battery daily usage into the overall mpg.

[https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-
office/2012/0...](https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-
office/2012/08/28/obama-administration-finalizes-historic-545-mpg-fuel-
efficiency-standard)

Trump rolled it back to the relief of every auto manufacturer. by the way all
of the auto manufacturers invested billions into America 2017-2020.

[https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2018/04/02/...](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2018/04/02/epa-
roll-back-auto-fuel-economy-rules/33485969/)

------
iandanforth
That's it, I'm returning my LEAF.

------
searine
Can we finally just admit that increased emissions standards are putting
lipstick on a pig?

ICE vehicles will never be clean energy. We need to be investing more in the
transition to EVs and improving electricity generation in general.

~~~
syshum
You believe EV is "clean" even though most electricity is generated by Burning
some kind of Hydrocarbon, be it Coal, NatGas etc...

Further the current electrical grid can not support a full migration to EV, we
can barely support summer time loads in some area with A/C Running, if
everyone changed to EV Tomorrow it would completely collapse the electric
grid.

~~~
jasonlotito
> You believe EV is "clean" even though most electricity is generated by
> Burning some kind of Hydrocarbon, be it Coal, NatGas etc...

Clean when compared to an ICE in a car, yes.

e.g. If we can reduce a bad thing by 90%, your argument is that there is still
10% of that bad thing, and therefore we should not adopt the solution. That's
a silly argument to make.

> if everyone changed to EV Tomorrow it would completely collapse the electric
> grid.

Since that literally can't happen, it's a non-issue.

~~~
prolepunk
Not to mention that coal plants are way more efficient than ICE engine. The
average efficiency at the wheel of a car is 18%. Coal plants with secondary
steam turbines can be as efficient as 50% extracting energy from the same
amount of hydrocarbons. Electric cars can have efficiency of 60% to 90%, so if
tomorrow we replace all the gas cars with electric cars powered from coal
power plants, we still be better off; then to that all the effort and energy
that it takes to get oil from the ground, refine it and then get it to the gas
tank of car, whereas in electric car its all power line transmission losses.

Coal is still bad, and there are much better alternatives like solar, wind and
nuclear and natural gas; where solar wind and nuclear take no hydrocarbons,
natural gas doesn't emit all the nasty things that coal plants do.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>Not to mention that coal plants are way more efficient than ICE engine. The
average efficiency at the wheel of a car is 18%

I'm not saying a coal power plant isn't more efficient but this is a one sided
fanboy comparison if there ever was one.

What's the efficiency of the coal power plant after it's been used to charge
up a battery and then discharged to power a car (i.e "at the wheel")? The fact
that it's being used to drive a car around is the dominant term in the
efficiency equation, not the form factor of the hydrocarbons. You did touch on
supply chain but lithium batteries have some pretty nasty environmental
impacts. I'm not sure whether they're better or worse than supplying liquid
fuel.

