
Differentiating laptops: How about a decent keyboard? (2015) - walterbell
http://www.mobileforesight.com/2015/12/laptop-makers-complain-they-cant-differentiate-how-about-a-decent-keyboard/
======
old-gregg
> keyboard ... for most people it is the main way they interact with their
> machines

The answer is right there: no, most people barely touch the keyboard. Most
people are not using laptops as tools to create anything. Most people do
nothing but look at Reddit/Facebook endless stream of entertainment and
scroll, scroll, scroll. Apple understood this early on and they made the
perfect laptop for scrolling, which is now available in Air, Pro and Regular
flavors. These aren't for typing.

As long as majority of laptop buyers are content consumers, this is not going
to change. However...

It will change. The content consumption has been shifting to mobile: the
phones and tablets are taking over. Once a laptop once again becomes primarily
a _tool_, decent keyboards (and maybe even tall screens!) will come back, just
look at the desktops. As traditional desktops have been 100% abandoned by
consumers, the mechanical keyboards and high quality IPS monitors made a
smashing comeback, the power users (remaining audience) is willing to pay for
nice tools.

~~~
catdog
> As long as majority of laptop buyers are content consumers, this is not
> going to change. However...

That would be understandable for the consumer focused lineups but most
manufactures also produce business models which are bought to create something
and still suffer from the same problem. As can be seen in the example of the
Thinkpad keyboards were already better but somehow they decided to worsen
them.

> the power users (remaining audience) is willing to pay for nice tools.

As said there already is this business/consumer split and it has been for many
years. Business is where the money is made, not at the consumer front where it
can't be cheap enough, yet the devices inside this category weirdly are more
and more designed not to be the workhorses they are supposed to be.

~~~
Hydraulix989
This is why I installed a classic non-chiclet Lenovo Thinkpad keyboard into my
X230 laptop:

[https://twitter.com/chuckmoyes/status/868582082896830464](https://twitter.com/chuckmoyes/status/868582082896830464)

It's such a shame to see them go downhill:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doEZMNXz1JY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doEZMNXz1JY)

------
codefreakxff
I don't normally comment, but this author and I _strongly_ disagree on the
ideal keyboard on almost .every. .single. .point., in fact there is no need to
enumerate them because I disagree with all of them.

But, the most glaring problem is the idealized keyboard for a laptop being one
with a 10 key area. When you sit down at a desktop you can position the
external keyboard to center the G/H keys in the middle of your monitor and
type comfortably. If you shift the G/H to the left it makes you move your arms
to the left for 99.9999% of your typing - unless you still do 10-key data
entry for some reason.

The second overall problem I have is the idea that you need dozens of keys
that are not essential to the function of your ability to TYPE on the laptop.
Sure, you could have a button to disable the wireless on your laptop - but
this is exactly the kind of key that SHOULDN'T be on a laptop. I have had to
"fix" so many laptops by re-pressing the wireless toggle key that I have been
tempted to physically break the key.

I'm only ranting here just incase any keyboard designers think this article
has any merit and tries to design a laptop-keyboard-from-hell like this.

Just don't.

~~~
devwastaken
[https://youtu.be/doEZMNXz1JY](https://youtu.be/doEZMNXz1JY)

Louis did a nice video on the older keyboard/trackpad vs the newer ones, which
I agree with. Modern keyboards actually aren't bad, but the trackpads are
terrible. The entire design of having left and right click as just one big
flat button causes so many issues.

~~~
Frank2312
That's because trackpads are now used to control as you would on a
phone/tablet : tap for single click, double tap for double-click, two-finger
tap for right click, pinch to zoom, etc.

Ideally, there would still be buttons to allow both types of control though.

~~~
cryptonector
Talk about irritating. A laptop is not a phone/tablet. A laptop, even a tiny
netbook, is big enough to allow the LUXURY of haptic feedback, so why not
provide it?!

~~~
danieldk
Apple's trackpads provide haptic feedback. If you push them gently, there is a
soft click, if you push them more, there is a hard click.

An additional benefit over hard buttons is that applications can use it for
additional feedback. E.g. OmniGraffle provides subtle haptic feedback via the
trackpad when objects align, which I find extremely handy for quickly aligning
objects.

~~~
cryptonector
I like distinct buttons. I like being able to tell by feel where my fingers
are. I lose track of my finger's position on a big trackpad where the only
clues to finger position are the edges of the pad. This leads to touch
leakage: you go click but you touch halfway in the button area and half-way in
the trackpad area and so the mouse pointer jumps as you click, thus clicking
on the wrong thing. Talk about irritating!

------
userbinator
I blame the "thin, light, cheap" trend. Flat, island-style keys with an
equally thin switch mechanism are easier to manufacture, thinner, and lighter
than the traditional design.

 _Other keys that are seldom used and could probably be done without are:
Scroll Lock, Insert, SysReq, Home, and End. Removing unnecessary keys would
free up space and improve usability._

I strongly disagree. Scroll Lock causes the viewpoint to scroll instead of the
cursor in a few programs I use. Insert/Home/End are _essential_ for text
editing. SysRq doesn't sound so useful until you realise that it's also known
as the Print Screen key, and if you use Linux extensively then the actual
SysRq function also becomes invaluable (
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key)
). On the other hand, I've found "media/multimedia keys" pretty useless, and
F-keys defaulted to something else is extremely irritating.

I also disagree that the numpad is "useless": it's very effective for entering
numbers, such as when you need to calculate something (of course, this is
probably a minority opinion as most people seem to find maths mostly useless
in general...)

Personally, I'd be happy if laptop makers would stop trying to change keyboard
layouts around and just keep all 10x standard keys as found on the IBM desktop
PC keyboard (omitting the numpad is acceptable if the laptop is not wide
enough), and go back to the traditional taller switch mechanism with curved,
area-filling keys. The T60/X60 comes close.

~~~
chrisseaton
> Insert/Home/End are essential for text editing

I manage to edit text without these buttons so they are demonstrably not
essential.

~~~
monort
How do you move to the beginning of the line?

~~~
chrisseaton
⌘ and left arrow key. Or I just click with my mouse.

~~~
monort
Well, you need a home key, it's just two buttons press instead of one :)

------
chx
Do you mean [http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-thinkpad-its-
alive/](http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-thinkpad-its-alive/) the Retro
ThinkPad? It's coming, I am waiting and if it sports the old seven row
keyboard and Thunderbolt then I am buying and not asking the price. Do yo know
why? Let's run some numbers! If I charge 130 USD / hr as a consultant (as
consultants handle their own taxes as such, it's the equivalent of a 130K
yearly which is not crazy high for a sr sw architect/developer) and this
machine makes me 1 percent more effective than the second best then it's
earning me 10 bucks a day. An 5000 dollar machine will earn itself back in two
short years. And this is at 1% while I believe the difference to be much, much
bigger. I am ready to invest but there's no product since the T420 family
which would be worth investing in. It also gives us an idea of the lifespan of
these machines: the T420 family is from 2011 and it's not like they are on
their last legs six years later.

Also, read the
[https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73419.0](https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73419.0)
Matias Ergo Pro review on some interesting design decision that went into that
particular keyboard. (And yes, it's the one I use vertically and can only
recommend doing the same.)

Interestingly enough, some gaming laptops are the ones that at least attempt
to have a semi decent keyboard by using mechanical switches.

------
wolfgke
Another feature laptop makers could differentiate is easy repairability. I
mean: Make the laptop as easy to repair as it is to repair a (self-built)
desktop PC. This is an ideal that can never be reached completely due to the
(e.g. space) constraints - but it can serve as an ideal to strive for.

And either provide your modified GPU drivers with regular updates for the
whole lifetime of the device (i.e. 3-5 years) or let the GPU vendor do the
job. But don't make it hard/impossible to install the GPU vendor's drivers if
you cannot regularly provide updates.

Make it easy to find the drivers that you need to install when one sets up the
OS newly. I've seen driver websites of laptop vendors where just the complete
list of drivers is shown for hardware that might be used in some laptops of
the family. Not fun. :-(

Negatiate hard with Microsoft whether you can also provide Windows 10
Enterprise to your customers, where a lot more surveillance functions can be
blocked (a large reason why a lot of German companies don't update to Windows
10 - only Enterprise allows decent blocking of the surveillance, but is hard
to get).

~~~
QML
That gives me a question: why is the desktop market so different from the
laptop market? Maybe because manufacturers are incentivized not to make
modular parts because that would compete with their business models. But that
doesn't explain companies like Asus which both makes personal computers and
provide the parts.

Perhaps the reason is because all the parts to make a laptop are custom for
that size specification.

~~~
PeterisP
Modularity directly increases space and weight of the parts, you can make a
smaller/thighter/lighter laptop by sacrificing repairability.

There are people who'd accept a bit bigger and a bit heavier laptop - so for
them you put in more battery in that weight and space, instead of "spending"
it on repairability.

This doesn't apply for desktops because there noone cares about tiny
differences in space or weight.

------
nayuki
I was strongly agreeing with the article until the last part where he went on
a crusade to remove keys.

> For example, the large Caps Lock key is a waste of space on a crowded
> keyboard. I never use it, but often hit it by mistake CAUSING ALL LETTERS TO
> BE CAPITALISED.

Some people remap this to Ctrl. Anyway, users are so accustomed to a physical
key in this position (regardless of what function they map it to) that it
would be a disservice to remove it.

> Other keys that are seldom used and could probably be done without are:
> Scroll Lock, Insert, SysReq, Home, and End. Removing unnecessary keys would
> free up space and improve usability.

Are you kidding about not using Home and End? They are the lifeblood of text
editing on Windows. Have you never selected a line with Shift+Home? Jumped to
the end of the text with Ctrl+End? Or do you always mouse-select text?

One of my laptop keyboards did not have dedicated Home+End keys, and had to
access them with Fn+PgUp/PgDn. It was inconvenient to use, and was glad to
switch to a ThinkPad that had real Home+End keys!

> Google took some steps in this direction when they introduced Chromebooks in
> 2011. They removed the Caps Lock key, all the F1 to F12 keys, Home, End,
> Delete, Page Up/Down and the entire number pad.

You can't seriously be approving the removal of F1 to F12 keys. Do you not use
F2 to rename a file? F3 to find next? Alt+F4 to close a window? F5 to reload a
webpage? F11 to full-screen the browser? F12 to open the web development pane?

> Apple have removed some of the more peripheral keys, including Page Up/Down
> [...] Removing Caps Lock would be great but I find the Page Up/Down keys to
> be very useful

Glad to see that you don't agree with the removal of PgUp/PgDn.

~~~
orbitingpluto
Do you even vi? Remove everything! Here's a link to the pic of the keyboard
for which vi was originally designed on:

[http://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/LSI-
ADM...](http://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/LSI-ADM3A-full-
keyboard.jpg)

I completely agree with your post. Removing the home/end & function keys is
such a waste given the amount of free space for keys on every single notebook
ever made.

edit: I realized I hadn't taken my initial argument to complete absurdity,
"Apple Introduces Revolutionary New Laptop With No Keyboard":

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA)

~~~
nayuki
I am aware of vim, but don't find its working style comfortable. It's true
that vim can work well on a plain keyboard without needing arrow keys, Ctrl
key, home/end/pgup/pgdn, shift-selecting, mouse, etc.

I like being able to type and select at any time, without having to remember
which mode is active. Also, using Dvorak destroys the intuitive hjkl keys for
positioning.

MacBook Wheel was great satire from The Onion ;-D. It vaguely reminds me of
how annoying it was to type passwords and search terms on the Apple TV
remote's D pad. For home theatre PC use, it seems most my friends choose a
Logitech Wireless Touch Keyboard K400.

~~~
orbitingpluto
I set up a Roku for someone and the d-pad on the remote jumped twice instead
of once for every click. Putting in a password required mod 2 arithmetic and
switching between rows/columns with even/odd lengths. Things can always become
more absurd.

~~~
unwiredben
Wow.. was it a RF remote or IR? I don't think I've seen that one in our bug
database.

~~~
orbitingpluto
It was the standard IR Roku 2 remote. Behavior stopped eventually for whatever
reason.

------
post_break
Trackpads on devices that aren’t macs are the work of the devil. Why are they
so touchy or non responsive? Why are they so small? Why are they not centered?

~~~
nothis
It's bizarre. What's also bizarre is that, apparently, it's the new thing to
hate modern MacBooks not having physical buttons. I have absolutely _zero_
problems with that, never "accidentally" clicked anything in my life, it's
perfectly balanced for just the right amount of pressure.

As for the other things, I've been wondering, too!

> Why are they so small?

Probably because they're afraid people accidentally touch them? I think if
Apple dares to make them this big, that's probably an irrational fear.

>Why are they not centered?

After a _long_ time thinking of it, I got an idea: Maybe they're centered on
the space bar to be between your hands when typing? That, however, would also
mean that they acknowledge that you're usually holding your hands off-center
to reach around the number pad. Has anyone used a laptop number pad in the
past 20 years? I agree that they should go in favor of a more sensible overall
layout.

~~~
userbinator
_I have absolutely _zero_ problems with that, never "accidentally" clicked
anything in my life, it's perfectly balanced for just the right amount of
pressure._

Dragging requires more effort since you have to both move the finger
horizontally while maintaining downward pressure, which increases the friction
significantly. If the button was separate, you can hold it with one finger
while just _touch_ ing the touchpad and controlling movement with the other.

~~~
adrusi
Not sure if this exists on modern MacOS, but you used to be able to move three
fingers along the glass without clicking to drag. I think you had to enable
the gesture.

~~~
qubitcoder
You can still do this in macOS [1]. It's one of the first things I change on
any new MacBook, along with remapping Caps Lock to Control.

I'm not sure why Apple doesn't present this as a main option instead of
burying it in the settings.

In my opinion, it's a significant usability & productivity improvement. Three
finger drag makes selecting text a breeze, along with quickly moving
applications across monitors.

Having to maintain pressure while awkwardly moving your finger across the
touchpad, while simultaneously appeasing the force touch gods, seems rather
uncivilized.

[1] [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204609](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT204609)

------
nothis
>Laptop makers complain they can’t differentiate

Wait, what, lol? As someone having been looking for laptops quite a few times
in the past few years, I find it ridiculous how hard it is to find something
with a) the exact hardware you want/need and b) not having a super shitty
case/design. It's bizarre! You'd think you go to a website, pick a CPU, RAM,
GPU, harddisk, screen and case. Hey, maybe you have to pay $100 extra for
someone screwing that shit together in half an hour, I'd do that!

~~~
michaelmrose
I'm still waiting for swappable gpu wherein a) you can actually buy the gpu
and b) future generations support the same standards without different cooling
and power requirements

~~~
Godel_unicode
Why not ask for 20 hour battery life while gaming in a lighter chassis? If
we're playing the "design a device with no thought to the physical realities"
game, let's get creative!

Although on a more serious note, you can have this today as long as
thunderbolt is okay.

~~~
michaelmrose
I owned a computer with this about 9 years ago in theory.

In reality it was only within a small range of gpu wherein price wise it made
little sense to go with anything but the best of I think 2 or 3 possibilities.

Unfortunately while you could select from multiple options at purchase you
couldn't actually buy even those options after the fact so nobody could have
upgraded after the fact.

Future editions had different thermal characteristics and didn't fit. I heard
anecdotal evidence that at least some had physically modified the heat sink
and made a original generation + 1 gpu work but couldn't confirm and I have no
idea where they were supposed to have actually bought such a thing.

I will have to check out what is being done with external gpu recently it
certainly seemed like an interesting idea.

------
gkop
Between T520 and T550, there was T530, which had basically the chiclet version
of the T520 keyboard, and it was just as good if not better than the T520
keyboard. Indeed, Lenovo really screwed up with the T540 and beyond - the
useless numeric pad shifts the rest of the keyboard way off center.
Fortunately, there's the T4XX series, that has a very good keyboard still.

~~~
Clubber
I had a W500 and the keyboard was amazing (as was the whole laptop). I
replaced the screen, the hard drive, memory, etc. I've bought Thinkpads since
IBM sold them because of their keyboards and nub.

I hate the numeric keypad. It throws the balance off and I feel like I have to
shift the laptop to the right to type. Is the demographic that wants the
numeric keyboard that large? They used to sell a separate one for accounting
types, now they all have them and I hate it. They also switched to the
chicklet style like Apple. I like the chicklet style on the Macs but I don't
think I'd like it on a Thinkpad. I believe they took a row off the keyboard
and jammed them together in some jacked up configuration. The
home/end/pageup/down isn't in a position that resembles a 101/104\. That
aggravates me too.

I'm ready to buy a new laptop. My 2013 rMBP is getting old. I've had to repair
the trackpad and now it's complaining about a memory module. I looked at the
P51s and P71s, but that damn keypad.

Come back to us old Thinkpad keyboard, it was a real differentiator.

~~~
zzalpha
Give something like the T470 a try in-store somewhere. I had an old T410 with
the old school Thinkpad keyboard, and I loved it, but the chicklet style that
Lenovo uses these days is actually pretty damn good.

~~~
Clubber
We had a T4xx series at work. I forgot the exact model. The keyboard was
really good, old Thinkpad style, but the home/end key is in a weird place. As
a coder, I use home and end probably more than any other keys except maybe
space (and backspace hah). I thought about getting one, but I wasn't sure if I
could get past it.

I map the Cmd-> and Cmd<\- on my Mac to the home and end. It works really well
in a Windows VM. Might get the new MacBook, but I'd buy a Thinkpad with an old
style layout in a second if it existed. I even tried resurrecting my old W500
to use as an RDP machine, but it's too far gone.

------
shams93
Its hard to pack a decent keyboard into a super slim profile. My thinkpad t420
is really fat by today's standards but the keyboard on this types like a
dream.

------
exabrial
How about an Ethernet Jack? More ports? Replaceable batteries? Not soldered
ram?

~~~
dlp211
You can literally get every single one of those things. This idea that the
only laptops available are MacBooks and other Ultrabooks is annoying here on
HN.

~~~
exabrial
Yeah I do really like OSX. There is no other commercially supported Unix
system :/

------
ValentineC
It's surprising how no laptop manufacturer has managed to come up with a
trackpad that comes close to being a decent competitor to Apple's.

I'd love for a non-Apple laptop to have the (older) MacBook trackpad and
keyboards — not the huge trackpads or butterfly switches that come with the
current generation ones.

~~~
jdc0589
the circa 2012 to 2015 keyboards and trackpads on MacBooks were PERFECT. the
new keyboards feel like typing on a hard table top

~~~
threeseed
You really do get used to it after a while and I am actually far more accurate
on it than the 2015 MacBook Pro.

Also might want to be clear which MacBook you are talking about.

The 2017 model has the second generation keyboard which is significantly
better than the 2016.

~~~
ValentineC
> _The 2017 model has the second generation keyboard which is significantly
> better than the 2016._

I thought both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pros had the second-generation
butterfly switches. Wasn't the first iteration of the butterfly switch only in
the first generation 12" MacBook (the one with one USB-C port)?

------
decasia
I suspect I am in the extreme minority here, but since I get wrist pain within
minutes of typing on a regular laptop keyboard, I have just resigned myself to
carrying around a portable Bluetooth ergonomic keyboard.[1]

This sounds exceptionally nerdy but it is less of a nuisance than I had
expected, my hands are much happier, and as a weird bonus, every day or two
someone comes up to me in a coffeeshop and asks about "that really cool
looking keyboard."

The day that a laptop manufacturer figures out how to integrate this sort of
gear into their product will be a good day...

[1] fwiw after a bit of research I ended up with the one made by Goldtouch;
[http://www.goldtouch.com/ergonomic-
keyboards/](http://www.goldtouch.com/ergonomic-keyboards/)

------
mnm1
A number pad on a laptop that sets the keyboard/trackpad off-center is
inexcusable. Completely unergonomic. It's the manufacturer not giving a second
thought to their product. It's the sign of a terrible laptop. At that point,
what goes under the hood is irrelevant.

------
cryptonector
What's the point? If you want a decent keyboard then you have to carry one.
There's no way that using a laptop on your lap can be healthy for you (neck
pain), while raising the laptop to improve the strain on your neck... can't
help your hands.

Anyways, that's what I do: travel with a compact wired keyboard. And that's my
advice.

As for differentiating laptops, lots of other things seem like better
characteristics to compare: freedom, privacy (mechanical webcam and mic
disable switches), mic quality, speaker quality, RAM, battery life, GPU, SSD
vs. HDD, weight, ...

One thing I hate is the bevelling on Macs: it actually hurts my fingers, but
then again, I carry an external keyboard (and mouse) anyways, so this wouldn't
stop me from buying a Mac.

------
waiseristy
How about going one further and asking for some decent processors? Why is it
so difficult to find <= 14 inch laptop with a quad core?

~~~
eropple
I was under the impression that at that size it's starting to get into heat
dissipation territory, but I couldn't say for sure.

~~~
waiseristy
Lenovo makes the T4xxP series laptops with Quad cores, I'm running one right
now. But I would rather not be stuck buying the same model every time I go
laptop shopping =\

~~~
gkop
Unfortunately I think this model bundles dedicated graphics, which I have no
need for. I have yet to find a Linux-friendly PC laptop with quad-core and
integrated graphics only.

~~~
eikenberry
With the current T470p you can get a quad-core i5 (7300HQ or 7440HQ) with the
integrated graphics. So you can get a quad-core. You just can't get the i7 w/o
the nvidia graphics.

~~~
gkop
Thanks for the tip! I'm sure in my research I was always clicking on i7.
What's the practical difference between the better of the i5 chips and the i7?

~~~
abrowne
For most (all?) mobile chips, the i7s are just the fastest ones. The i5s still
have all the same features.

------
ScottBurson
Surprised that no one has pointed out the obvious factor driving the poorer
keyboards: the drive to make laptops thinner and lighter. With less space to
work with, laptop designers have to make compromises.

The market has spoken. Thinness and lightness is more important than a good
keyboard.

(Still hanging on to my 6-year-old 17" MBP. I can see the point of something
thinner and lighter, but it's just not my highest priority.)

------
M2Ys4U
I completely disagree about having a number pad. I chose my laptop (in part)
because it had a numpad.

I also use a macbook at work and the lack of a numpad frustrates me.

------
rcpt
I have one of those T5*0s that he's talking about and he's right - the
keyboard is awful. Not only those surprise pgup pgdn next to the arrow keys
but take a look at PrintScreen jammed in between alt and ctrl! Then I've got
the fact that the keycaps are so easy to remove that my 2-year-old has made a
game of popping them off and stashing them around the house.

The laptop is basically unusable.

------
makecheck
Considering that desktop keyboards are essentially tied to the computer only
by a cable (or nothing), it is kind of amazing that laptop keyboards are so
_integrated_. Something like a standard rectangle that can snap in/out or
slide in/out different keyboards would sure be nice.

~~~
throwanem
The actual mechanics are mostly standard among manufacturers lately. The
shapes are all that's not, and getting laptop manufacturers to design around a
fixed range of form factors seems like a tall order.

------
lukaszkups
This keyboard (Drevo Gramr 84): [https://images-na.ssl-images-
amazon.com/images/I/71fy58ykIaL...](https://images-na.ssl-images-
amazon.com/images/I/71fy58ykIaL.jpg) has the best key placement design of all
time.

Just take a look at most-right keys - home,del,page up/down, end they're all
placed like to tap on them without using Your eyes easily.

I'm just very disappointed that this layout is not so popular so I can't get
very different new keycaps for it (have 2 of these keyboards already and
started writing totally without looking after something like 3 weeks of using
them) - I totally recommend these models, especially with brown switches

------
achikin
I used to own IBM model M when I was 15 and I was very happy to throw it away
and buy an ordinal keyboard when they appeared in Russia. Being a part of
"keyboard cult" for several years, I owned several "ergonomic" keyboards
including Ergodox(which I have sold several days ago) and can say that it's a
hype. Laptop keyboards are good enough for touch typing. Two things I'd like
to have - non-staggered layout and split groups for each hand. Everything else
above this does not add any usability at all.

~~~
porker
Interesting feedback, as I have been considering an Ergodox. All I want is a
split keyboard with 10+cm between the two sides, but the build quality of
split normal keyboards (like Goldtouch, Kinesis Freestyle 2, Matias Ergo Pro)
is shocking. I don't want something zany or a 60% keyboard (I like arrow keys,
dedicated page up/down, home/end and function keys) but... the choices aren't
there.

~~~
achikin
I damaged my wrists a while ago so I'm very sensitive to the wrong wrist
position. Unfortunately, I could not position Ergodox so doesn't cause me
wrist pain. Also I find the travel distance of mechanical keys way too long.
Otherwise Ergodox is one of the best keyboards in terms of layout and
customizability. You can try Microsoft Sculpt. Not the latest version with
numpad, but a previous version. It is split, has good enough scissor switches
and has the best wrist support on the market which is built in the keyboard.

------
nerdponx
I just want a non-Apple laptop that is as sturdy as an Apple laptop. Yes, I
know they aren't impact-resistant, but those unibody aluminum cases last
forever.

~~~
slantyyz
I have an ASUS Zenbook UX501VW laptop, and the build/construction is very
similar to my old 2011 15" MBP (unibody).

My model has a numeric keypad (but no End key, wtf) but its successor for 2017
got rid of the numpad.

~~~
nerdponx
Last time I checked these out (2014) they were pretty flimsy. Thin flexible
plastic everywhere. I guess they got better?

~~~
slantyyz
The 2016 model that I have has an aluminum chassis and glass screen. It's
pretty much like my 2011 unibody MBP except that it's a little wider (because
of the numpad).

AFAIK, the 2017 model is just less wide but same build.

------
dsparkman
Actually, give us an IBM ThinkPad 701 with modern internals.Throw in a really
large battery with an OLED display, and you have a great machine. :)

------
c3d
Some things are a metter of taste. That guy prefers wasting space for trackpad
buttons, I largely prefer the MacBook Pro larger trackpad with tactile
feedback. I also prefer monochrome keyboards. And just yesterday, I was
marvelling at the sound I was getting from my laptop speakers. They are all
but wasted keyboard space.

The article seems to consider the author's personal preferences as facts.

------
Yizahi
If anyone cared about keyboards they would first ditch stupid typewriter row
shift.

Also, as an observation, I work with a hundred of IT guys, none of them uses
ergonomic keyboard or even with "kinda ergonomic", more classic shape. There
is just no demand for good keyboards, at most people want "mechanical" KB,
without any other improvements.

~~~
Qub3d
Mech + Colemak layout. More similar to QWERTY than Dvorak, but much more
efficient.

------
yellowapple
If laptop makers really want to differentiate, they can start by getting rid
of 1366x768. It's fucking 2017; laptops really have no business shipping with
anything less than 1920x1080.

Also, the complaints about the numpad are certainly a matter of personal
preference. I personally find a built-in numpad to be a significant plus when
laptop-shopping.

~~~
ValentineC
Speaking of legacy tech, I wonder why some laptop manufacturers (System76, I'm
looking at you) continue to ship with USB 2.0 ports.

------
JeremyBanks
Keyboards and trackpads were a differentiator for the MacBook, during its
rise. They might not stand out today, but ten years ago they were exceptional
compared with almost all of their competitor's laptop keyboards. The layout
may not have been optimal, but at least the keys didn't feel like they were
going to fall off at every press.

~~~
wmichelin
I think they're still better than anything on the market. It could be at the
software level, but I've never once seen or used a Windows laptop with decent
two finger scrolling.

~~~
akurilin
Agreed. As someone who regularly gets "Linux laptops" for work, their
keyboards flex inwards and their touchpads are miserable. I often carry a
wireless mouse with me to meetings because using those things ends up being
such a pain. Never had that issue with Macs.

------
jseliger
OLED displays might also be nice. I think Dell/Alienware is the only company
offering them in a somewhat mainstream configuration:
[https://hothardware.com/reviews/alienware-13-with-oled-
revie...](https://hothardware.com/reviews/alienware-13-with-oled-
review?page=7)

~~~
tikhonj
I got a ThinkPad X1 Yoga with an OLED display last year. It's pretty
incredible, especially at rendering black and dark colors.

The form-factor is also incredible: very light and thin and just _slightly_
larger than a 13" laptop. This means it fits in my small laptop bag (designed
for 13" models) but has a 14" screen and a great keyboard with full-size keys.

The touchpad is also pretty large and top-notch and it comes with the
traditional ThinkPad trackpoint pointer if you're into that.

It's not super cheap but if you can afford it, I _highly_ recommend it.

------
kevin_thibedeau
The keyboard is how I chose my most recent laptop. My only requirement was
non-multiplexed edit keys. It's incredibly hard to find this despite the
abundance of space available on modern laptops. The only ones I could find
were two Lenovo models. One of which is already discontinued.

------
eecc
I gave up and bought a Filco (actually I have two, but that's because I'm an
idiot) tenkeyless mehanical keyboard that I leave at my clients desk. I only
use the MacBook one when I'm on the couch or working at a cafe and value the
portability

------
aetherspawn
Macbook Pros need a spring-loaded drop out ethernet jack, the thunderbolt
doodad gets really hot, isn't as easy as ethernet to plug/unplug and is
annoying to have on your desk to say the least.

~~~
sand500
USB C isn't easy to uplug??

On a side note, I wonder if they make Ethernet cables with the adapter built
in.

~~~
ValentineC
> _USB C isn 't easy to uplug??_

I find the smooth texture (on at least the Apple cables) to be a pain to grip.
It's easier for me with USB type-A cables as there's more surface area.

------
roesel
How about differentiating by making a laptop which doesn't sound like a
helicopter taking off when 50 % or more of the CPU is used? Now that would be
something.

------
flatfilefan
I like the keyboard on the dell xps13, what i'd really want to know is why
have they dropped Home,End,PgUp,PgDn buttons but left Print and Insert ones.

------
woodandsteel
I agree 100%. Laptop keyboards are terrible.

------
georgebarnett
I lost interest when the model M was described as ergonomic. It really isn't.
For one, the keys are still diagonal which is an oddity from old typewriters
and causes many issues. Another issue is the key placement on the IBM is
traditional and causes much wrist strain.

If you're going to compare ergonomic keyboards, at least get your shit
together and start with abase mode that's actually ergonomic, such as a
Kinesis Advantage.

------
Theodores
IMHO high end Chromebooks now have the best keyboards. Typing this right now
on a Chromebook Pixel (2013). My workmates have those Thinkpad keyboards with
all of the extra features - mouse buttons, nipple thing and what seems like
1-2 extra rows of keys compared to the Chromebook layout. Again, 'IMHO', these
keyboards are way too complicated and a bit old-fashioned looking. The cruft-
free Chromebook keyboard is vastly superior.

I also have low-end Chromebooks (just two of them) without the superb feel of
the Pixel or the back-lighting. I don't type on these keyboards, instead I use
'Synergy' and a Logitech K810 portable keyboard:

[http://www.logitech.com/en-gb/product/bluetooth-
illuminated-...](http://www.logitech.com/en-gb/product/bluetooth-illuminated-
keyboard-k810?crid=27)

I carry the Logitech K810 everywhere, I would be lost without it. It also
comes with a 'delete' key (as well as backspace), this omission of a 'delete'
key is a mild deficiency of the Chromebook layout.

I can remember the introduction of the special Windows keys that crept in
between the CTRL, ALT and SPACE keys. At the time I thought these were a bit
silly as you don't really need a choice of buttons to get to the Windows
'Start' menu. What I like about the Chromebook keyboard layout is that those
silly keys have gone away.

The aforementioned Logitech keyboard also trims down on the amount of useless
Windows keys, they are still there, on the left, but not the right.

If you are left-handed then the requirements get more interesting. I don't
punch numbers in to the keypad with the dexterity of my friends in accounts, I
wish I could but it isn't going to happen. Therefore those laptops with the
number pad - or even full keyboards with the number pad - are just not for me,
best avoided at all cost.

Another benefit of the carry-along Logitech keyboard is that I can also use it
with my phones. Rather than peck away at a message I can type eloquent
messages with things like punctuation.

For the day job I use a Lenovo Yoga consumer grade laptop instead of a
Thinkpad. IMHO these keyboards - chicklet with backlight - are better than
those legacy-style Thinkpad keyboards. I still use the portable Logitech
keyboard with it though. This amuses my colleagues, I take them through some
tutorial on something and there is this inevitable question about how come I
use the same keyboard/mouse with so many screens/computers.

My only feature request is that Logitech (or other) make their Bluetooth
keyboards/mice work as USB keyboards when plugged in with a micro-USB lead, as
happens for charging. This would enable me to get rid of my wired keyboard,
the one I use after rebooting my desktop PC to log in and get 'synergy'
started.

As for Synergy, it is not entirely perfect as there are times when keys get
'stuck' in between the keypress down state and the keypress up. This is
probably not a problem for most users however I have the repeat rate set to
massively fast in order to move cursors around extra quick.

[https://symless.com/synergy#purchase-
pro](https://symless.com/synergy#purchase-pro)

------
leeoniya
2015

------
dingo_bat
How about you use a decent keyboard connected to your desk dock? The only time
I need to use the keyboard seriously is when I'm sitting at my office desk or
the work desk at my home. And both places have a dock with an awesome keyboard
and display connected. I don't even care how the in built keyboard works as
long as it's enough for the random Facebook post.

~~~
Viper007Bond
Hint: Many people use laptops when traveling or when not at home or the
office. Infact that's the only thing I use mine for. I have a significantly
more powerful desktop in my home office.

