
In Kenya, “sugar” relationships have become both more common and more visible - orf
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/sex_and_the_sugar_daddy
======
epx
Please discount the fact that I am a bit of a misanthrope, but... who the hell
enters in a relationship not expecting to get something in return?

~~~
lgessler
The way I see it is that although in most relationships people expect
reciprocation, they differ in how strictly the people involved are keeping
tabs on the difference between how much each is contributing.

In relationships like the ones described in this article, both parties are
paying more attention to whether they're getting what they perceive to be a
fair reward for what they are providing to the other, and should the balance
ever shift too far out of their favor, they will presumably end the
relationship.

On the other extreme, in a relationship between two very close childhood
friends or between two deeply romantically involved people, one will often do
nice things for the other without (I claim) necessarily checking the books to
see all the nice things they've done vs. all the nice things the other's done
in the past week before deciding whether to do the nice thing. They just do
the nice thing, knowing that in the past the other has done the same for them.
Only if there comes to be a very long period of non-reciprocation will the
other party wake to the one-sidedness of the relationship and begin to
reconsider.

~~~
scotty79
> ... should the balance ever shift too far out of their favor, they will
> presumably end the relationship.

This pretty much describes all relationships except those where one falls
horribly ill or the ones where one sticks around despite abuse.

> They just do the nice thing, knowing that in the past the other has done the
> same for them. Only if there comes to be a very long period of non-
> reciprocation will the other party wake to the one-sidedness of the
> relationship and begin to reconsider.

I think this might be the case in many sugar relationships. That's why it's
sometimes hard to describe them as just sex work.

~~~
jacobush
But on a scale, typically closer to sex work and much farther from friendship,
right?

~~~
scotty79
Right. That's what unsettling people. That and the fact that boundries are
fuzzy and fluid.

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DoreenMichele
Thanks to the choice of illustrations, it could definitely use a NSFW tag. But
it's a surprisingly good article about a difficult subject. It's very
evenhanded and even notes that there are young males who do this as well.

Sex work is a tough topic for sorting out human rights under the best of
circumstances. It sounds like it is even more fraught in the crucible that is
Africa.

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noobermin
I am an outsider to some extent but it's interesting observing a repeat of the
so-called "feminist sex wars" here in Africa. One argument is that if the
society was more equal economically across gendered lines, then there would be
no need for this kind of sex work. This is often used as an argument against
sex work in the west as well, but I'm guessing the level of wealth inequality,
and not just across gendered lines, is much more extreme in Kenya, so the
scale of the difference could push it into a different regime.

I don't know what the answer is. I also don't like the idea of people on the
outside imputing their mores unto another group when that group could advocate
for themselves.

~~~
ddorian43
Don't you think with economic equality, 80% of females will go to top 10% of
males (for free) ? While now at least they pay.

~~~
meowface
Are you saying 80% or more of women don't want monogamous relationships?

~~~
raducu
I think he's saying 80% of women want monogamous relationships with the top
10% of men :)

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throwaw-zxcvbn
FWIW, this is rampant in many parts of Asia, too, with a similar discrepancy
between traditional culture (Confucianism in China, Catholicism in the
Philippines, Buddhism in Thailand, Islam in Indonesia, ...) and today's
realities.

Several young women maintain several distinct social media identities: one for
family, one for friends, one for "daddies".

~~~
ssijak
And then Facebook starts offering your “daddy” account to your family in the
“people you may know category” because it sees that you hang out with them in
the same location

~~~
DoreenMichele
You can't have multiple Facebook accounts. That's an offense that gets you
banned if they figure it out.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Actually... Many, many people do.

Most often, when they suspect you have more than one, they'll close the
multiples after requiring you to verify your identity on one (or more) of
them.

Source: I only have one, but I run in occult circles. Many folks keep their
occult stuff seperate from their main friends, family, and work account, with
some overlap. Sometimes folks will go through and turn them in, and most folks
turn around and make yet another new one.

------
randyrand
“Transactional sex was once driven by poverty”

Isn’t poverty what drives most of us to get any job? I work because otherwise
i’d be in poverty.

Are they implying that sex work is the only work available to them? Unlikely.
But I imagine sex work is far more profitable and easier of a job than the
alternatives - so maybe that actually makes it a good thing?

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moo2Chee
Global replace "Kenya" with "USA", the tale still rings true.

~~~
aphextron
Or anywhere in the west, really. It's just one more symptom of the horrific
rising levels of wealth inequality.

~~~
riffraff
I am unsure I understand your last remark. This seems more a result of the
rise of a new medium than the rise of inequality, i.e. sex-for-money and
pleasant-partner-to-keep-around-for-money have been around for millennia.

~~~
noobermin
It is arguable that this was how marriage functioned in the past in the west,
especially when men courted women from their parents.

~~~
nordsieck
> It is arguable that this was how marriage functioned in the past in the west

Really? Both Dowry and Bride Price were not uncommon practices.

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onetimemanytime
>> _One of her motives, she says, is to be able to support her younger
sisters, so they won 't need to rely on men for money_

Aha! The very definition of taking one for the team :-) .

The news is that now it's wide open and more expected. They'll keep it doing
well into their 40's, once you cross the barrier you can always use more
money. And odds are that they'll find a taker, albeit an older one and receive
way less money.

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throwaw-zxcvbn
I wonder, by the way, whether the surge of this phenomenon is an outgrowth of
social media.

In discussions with young women of modest means in countries with limited
opportunities and huge income inequality (ie most third world countries), it
is hard to find arguments against their impression that this lifestyle is
their best chance for a good life.

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person_of_color
I'd like to hear of any HNers who are involved in this lifestyle. Given SV
pay, it must be not unheard of.

~~~
throwaway_nnn
Go ahead and ask something about it, the throwaway account is ready. Not in SV
however. It's been interesting - e.g. I met the smartest (but lazy) person I
know and I know for sure that one tech billionaire that you've likely heard of
was also doing it.

~~~
saiya-jin
Well, I didn't think about it before, so random thoughts - why this way at
all? It seems a rather poor allocation of the money (unless you are super-rich
relative to where you live). From what I heard, it ain't a cheap 'hobby', ie
ladies expect expensive stuff for the 'services'.

Is the youth the biggest draw? From my experience highest quality sex happens
with more experienced ladies, it takes them time to come to terms with their
body, their visual flaws (all of us has them) etc. and just enjoy themselves.

What about trust? With prostitute, you know you can't trust her being healthy,
with these ladies - is the approach the same or you hope she doesn't have 10
similar 'customers' like you?

~~~
throwaway_nnn
I have enough money that ~$3-7k/month doesn't make a large difference. I've
never bought anything additional for them unless you count paying for dinner
and drinks and Ubers.

Youth is definitely a top draw. You might have seen this study:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/15/style/dating-apps-
online-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/15/style/dating-apps-online-men-
women-age.html) \- men of all ages send most messages to 18-19 year-olds. But
there are other factors: not my experience but some men have fetishes they
want to fulfill or they want to cheat. I'm actually doing well enough on
Tinder to meet a new, above average girl every day in a big city. But I'm not
in the social circles that would allow me to meet top current models or ballet
dancers... But this makes it possible.

It's just my impression that could be wrong but I'm 90%+ sure that none of the
girls I was seeing had other "clients." I'm picky and I avoid girls who seem
like "party girls" and have no job or don't go to school. Also, only one of
them had a previous arrangement and all of them wanted to have chemistry
first. They describe most of the other men they met as weird and unattractive.

So I agree with you that you can't trust 80%+ of them if you care about not
being just another client.

~~~
person_of_color
What's your age range?

~~~
throwaway_nnn
18-24. It would be quite hard for me to meet girls this age on Tinder but it's
not hard for me to meet 25+ year-olds on it.

@person_of_color Edit because I hit the posting limits: I've done it with
breaks for real relationships in mid-to-late 30s.

~~~
person_of_color
I mean _your_ age range - unless you are 18-24?

------
candiodari
The old huge problem with empowerment rears it's ugly head. The problem is
that freedom is liberating for the powerful, and a prison for the poor.

For rich women, the ability to enter into these "sponsor relationships" is
empowering, enabling them to do more. And as long as they can just end it on
short notice, certainly empowering.

For poor women, who would not be able to eat without a sponsor relationship or
outright prostitution, the freedom is a prison, effectively convicting them to
lifelong sex work.

This would also work in reverse. Zero tolerance for prostitution is liberating
for the poor, oppressive for the rich. Not just for women even, if you
consider for a little bit what the effect on men is, it is even liberating for
men.

For rich men, of course the ability to just buy women without needing to hide
anything is liberating. Even for men who just want to have sex without condoms
(often very strongly legislated against in outright sex work, and enforced by
the women, for health reasons) it is liberating.

The same is true for many other issues that current society can't seem to make
it's mind up over. For, example, for many young girls, the "freedom to wear
the islamic face veil" is not freedom at all, because their parents have a
very strong preference (and feel justified in using violence to get this
particular issue settled). And of course that leads to further oppression.

But for women who are already in a position of sufficient power to just do
what they want, whatever comes into their mind, a prohibition on face veils
would be limiting.

However, in both examples it is only liberty at the expense of others that is
achieved. Usually liberty for the powerful, and usually men at that, at the
expense of poorer people, mostly women.

But we should allow this ... because Beyonce used it to achieve great status.
And that it failed 99.99% of those who tried it ? Oh well ...

And there is the small issue that there are _many_ more women for whom
outlawing prostitution is liberating, where even just outlawing or socially
punishing sponsorship relationships would at least provide safe sex and there
are many more girls for whom a prohibition on face veils would be liberating,
where it would provide a way out of a bad family position, an initial
concession to "family oppression/values" that their parents would be forced to
make. Because there are simply much more poor ...

------
nicolas_t
Whenever I think about sugar relationship, I always think of the movie 和你在一起
(Together) by Chen Kaige. One of the character was a woman dependent on sugar
relationships and her motivations, fears and the relationships she had with
those men was very well depicted.

~~~
listic
Could you please provide a link? I can't seem to find it.

~~~
nicolas_t
This it the movie
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332639/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332639/)

------
axilmar
The oldest profession is prostitution. You can find references to it in
ancient greek writings, for example.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaira)

~~~
watwut
They had other professions too. It does not proof it is the oldest one.

~~~
a_silly_name
"Prostitution is the oldest profession" is a common saying, but not to be
taken literally.

Should be read more a sardonic acknowledgement of how innately transactional
sex can be, and how the line between 'transactional sex' and 'not
transactional sex' can be very, very blurry.

Especially in horrific pre-historical survival scenarios. Hence the saying.

~~~
watwut
I don't see where that expression brings in anything blurry. It just says that
it is old thing. Transnational sex is kind of new concept, I dont think all
cultures cared about difference in these terms. Marriage was transactional to
large degree and ok, true love out of marriage was bad.

> Especially in horrific pre-historical survival scenarios. Hence the saying.

Prostitution and rape are not the same, really. Prostitution or sex for
survival happened much more lately (Victorian era, any time with lack of
resources, any time with lack of men, wars, world wars).

~~~
a_silly_name
My goodness, I certainly wasn't referring to rape (!). I was referring to
transactional sex, and the vagueness of the definition of the phrase.

I don't really understand your comment. 'Transactional sex' can be both a new
concept, and a thing that happened before the phrase was coined.

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M_Bakhtiari
In the Gulf they take it one step further with their Dubai Porta Potties:
[https://britmannia.com/2016/07/03/dubai-porta-
potties/](https://britmannia.com/2016/07/03/dubai-porta-potties/)

------
vinni2
I really wonder what makes a news article like this interesting enough to make
it featured in ycombinator news. I mean from the content point of view.
Probably interesting to train a classifier. Has anybody tried?

------
Untit1ed
I'm not sure what I expected, but some kind of NSFW tag would've been nice :|

~~~
casefields
The very top of the page says:

(Warning: Contains adult themes and graphic images)

That isn't enough for you?

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ofrzeta
Aside: I'd rather have a classic article with images and videos instead of
that constant over- and underscrolling, images appearing and disappearing etc.
I think the innovation is a bit compulsive.

~~~
keshab
I wonder how people come up with these insanity. It does not add any value to
the article and is so infuriating. Apart from that, I found the article good.

~~~
expertentipp
Someone come up with a „brilliant” idea, someone else who doesn’t care
implements it. That’s how usually short-lived, standard-breaking solutions are
created. I’m seeing more and more often on many websites an ad in this
„creatively revealing” image.

