
Ikea C&D's 8-year old Ikea furniture hacking website - zdw
http://www.ikeahackers.net/2014/06/big-changes-coming-to-ikeahackers.html
======
jacquesm
Ikea handled this pretty good I think:

FTFA: "Long story short, after much negotiation between their agent and my
lawyer, I am allowed to keep the domain name IKEAhackers.net only on the
condition that it is non-commercial, meaning no advertising whatsoever."

That could have been a lot worse. She gets to keep it, they don't see their
brand diluted in any meaningful way or exploited commercially.

I count a whole pile of ad banners on the site, IKEA branding (including their
colors and logos) everywhere. She really got off very light. And if she
switches to another domain in time then there will be 0 harm.

~~~
jrockway
Sounds like ikeahackers should just redirect all the pages on that site to a
different domain name that doesn't use the IKEA trademark, and then serve
advertising.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Perhaps "IDEAhackers.org"?

~~~
jacquesm
That's an excellent one. And it seems to be free. You should mail her.

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kourt
Let's use this as a case study: What (according to HN) should IKEA have done?

On one hand, trademark preservation is important.

On another hand, how many companies would kill for a community of "Raving
Fans" like this? And in addition to enthusiasm, the site seemed very high
quality and thus complementary to Ikea's marketing.

~~~
cperciva
_Let 's use this as a case study: What (according to HN) should IKEA have
done?_

Buy the site and pay the owner to keep on running it. If it's owned by IKEA
there's no trademark dilution problem...

~~~
jacquesm
> Buy the site and pay the owner to keep on running it.

I think that would send the wrong signal to would-be copycats. I think the
chosen solution, allow them to continue but non-commercially is a pretty good
one. If it's a fan site then it should be non-commercial.

~~~
Niten
I don't think it would send that message at all.

IKEA Hackers wasn't just some site using the IKEA name, it was a high-quality
and well-established community. If IKEA had purchased this establishment, I
don't think a reasonable person would conclude they would give the same
treatment to just any other trademark infringer.

And even non-profit sites need money to pay for hosting.

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porpoisemonkey
There's quite a few comments that have been posted that refer to the site
owner as "he". Jules Yap is female.
[http://jules.ikeahackers.net/](http://jules.ikeahackers.net/)

~~~
jeroen
There is a picture at the top of the post with a female character in it. The
amount of "he"s in this thread is probably a good indication of how much time
a reader spends looking at such things.

~~~
jacquesm
Or, you know, that the name 'Jules' is used for males the vast majority of th
time.

~~~
jeroen
Did you really notice that there is an image with a girl in it at the top of
the post and still think that the author must be male?

My first association with Jules is male (the only Jules I know is a guy), but
the image gave me second thoughts.

~~~
jacquesm
I read the text, never looked at the image, but now that I have looked at it,
it seemed like just an illustration anyway, not a picture representative of
the author.

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psychometry
What is the benefit to Ikea (or other companies with armies of lawyers who
like to threaten loyal customers) by sending cease and desist letters to sites
like this?

~~~
eli
Without passing judgement on this example, there's at least a hypothetical
risk that if you don't continuously defend your trademark, you could lose it!
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
There's no genericisation happening on that site. It's a fan site. It's like
saying that "ikeasucks.com" is going to lead to genericisation of the mark,
there's no chance as the trademark is only being used to refer to what the
company uses it for. On a general point you can defend your mark as much as
you like it can still take the elevator to, or get hoovered up by
genericisation by the public - google it on Bing if you don't believe me. ;0)

Strictly speaking ikeahackers.net is using the mark in a commercial way
(because of the advertising) and so by UK/EU TM law seems to be infringing.
There does also appear to be a strong possibility of confusion - the site is
very "on message" for Ikea IMO and uses their livery and it's own design to
imitate well the Ikea style.

From the sites perspective they can use a different [distinct!] name and make
clear they're not legally associated but only a fan site, acknowledge Ikea's
RTM in the footer for example and disclaim association. That seems sufficient
to differentiate and avoid possibility of actual confusion (though they could
still be sued of course). Adding in products from other suppliers would help
here too ... that of course is bad for Ikea, but they're the ones pointing the
gun at their own feet.

From Ikea's point of view. License the site, pay the content creator a nice
fat salary to carry on and thank them sincerely for marketing your products so
well for you. It can't possibly be cheaper in lost good will and lawyers
salaries to sue "Jules".

------
contingencies
This is an amazing cultural reference point for modern western thinking. I
mean, no longer do you actually build something out of real materials like
wood: rather, you take the _notwood_ chipboard+plastic laminate available in
an over-marketed unit shipped half way around the world in volume, modify it,
then post to the internet about how to do it. Finally, people respond with
anecdotes like the comment here ...
[http://www.ikeahackers.net/2014/06/balcony-
bar.html](http://www.ikeahackers.net/2014/06/balcony-bar.html) ... this is
going to be some hardcore retro content in another twenty years.

~~~
dspig
To be fair, Ikea can be the cheapest source of some raw-ish materials like
mirrors, glass tabletops, metal poles, even some forms of solid wood. Why not
take advantage of their economy of scale - do you know the alternatives
haven't travelled just as far?

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mdaniel
I wonder had Jules turned over the domain to them (or might still, given the
intention to transfer the site to a new domain) if IKEA would have just made
it a blind redirect to their main site, or just killed it to prevent the next
Jules from having it.

I almost thought they would start their own DIY community, but running a
community is a ton of work and I doubt it would increase their sales by a
large enough percentage to warrant it.

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duncan_bayne
Not only is management clueless, but their front-line support staff refuse to
escalate complaints about the issue:

[https://gist.github.com/duncan-
bayne/74d6e38c506000982237](https://gist.github.com/duncan-
bayne/74d6e38c506000982237)

------
thelostagency
I say it was handled quite badly, IKEA doesn't need the extra revenue but the
site dominates a growing niche that IKEA might no longer be wishing to be
associated with as they try and push upmarket....

Dumb idea all round to act like this, and good luck to IKEAHackers.net

------
jakubmal
The guys behind ikeahackers should escalate this to higher positioned managers
within Ikea, until they have a chance to talk to someone who will understand
and appreciate the idea behind the website.

~~~
jacquesm
No legal action would ever be taken by a company like this without the
appropriate managers being 100% aware of the situation. Even if they claim
later publicly that they did not know once the backlash starts up. Lawyers
don't just act on lowly minions talking to them, someone with specific powers
must authorize the action.

~~~
scrollaway
This is true but not necessarily entirely correct either. IKEA probably has a
legal department handling things such as trademark issues, knockoffs etc; that
department may have very little contact with marketing or much-higher-ups.

It's unlikely nobody would be aware of this if this was over "months of
negociations", though. Still, I think this is a case where a lot of
bureaucracy has clouded what should be a very clear cut case. It's possible if
a reasonable top-of-the-chain higher-up is told about all this and it is
clearly demonstrated that (assuming this is at all what the site owner wants)
IH could be acquired or affiliated and the whole thing could turn from bad PR
to good PR, they would tell legal/laywers to sod off.

~~~
jacquesm
I think you fail to understand the basiscs about how IKEA is put together. The
brand is _not_ owned by the parent company:

[http://www.thelocal.se/20120809/42514](http://www.thelocal.se/20120809/42514)

So when you do something with the IKEA brand and furniture all kinds of
'reasonably considerations' that would flow from brand being owned by the
mothership go right out the window.

Likely the only kind of employee the brand company has is IP lawyers.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
A fine tax dodge no doubt - Lichtenstein should nationalise that shell
company, y'know, just for the giggle.

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vtlynch
For anyone arguing this was the right decision... the bottom line is that now
Ikea has made me very aware that they care more about the brainless legal
bullying of corporate business than applauding a patron who loves their goods.

I can only imagine being an artist, finding someone has created a site about
my work, and then deciding that I should attempt to sue or censor that person.

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alexnking
It's alarming to me that we allow corporations to control how and how we are
not allowed to use words. Trademarks should be limited to preventing people
from selling similar products using your company name. They shouldn't be a way
for companies to control related culture.

~~~
adestefan
By monetizing the site with ads she is making money with their unique brand
name.

~~~
alexnking
Well, I imagine she's actually making money with her original content - and
then they're saying she can't, because it happens to refer to their "unique
braand".

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nirajd
totally understand IKEAs concern. I thought this was IKEA's website before I
read the article..

IKEA should acquire / host this community on their dime & domain

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viggity
fwiw, particle-board-hackers.com is available

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CodeWriter23
I suggest she rename it πkea.com

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cuillevel3
Anyone remember ikeaheights?

