
PHP vs. Lisp? - iamelgringo
http://briancarper.net/2008/09/22/practicality-php-vs-lisp/
======
brlewis
I use Scheme day and night for web apps, but this guy makes a valid point:

 _An old rusty wobbly-headed crooked hammer is the best tool for the job if
it's right next to you and you only need to pound in a couple of nails._

~~~
etal
Isn't it always just a couple more nails, here and there, till the next
feature's ready to go?

~~~
lliiffee
Sure, commonly when you have a big project, it seems like it is just a few
remaining details.

That doesn't mean- as you seem to suggest- that small little problems don't
exist!

------
Retric
The author compares using a language and web framework he knows to one he does
not know and never tried.

Feel free to guess how the rest of the article went.

PS: Why do people feel the need to post about subjects they don't know?

~~~
mixmax
Can you point me to somewhere where I can download a single click install lisp
stack that includes a webserver? Preferably for windows, which is what I use
at work.

Can you point me to a site where all lisp functions are well documented with
user comments?

Can you point me to a place where I can find a bunch of lisp libraries that
are maintained and in use that I can use for my projects?

No?

~~~
skolos
Try this one: <http://www.sergeykolos.com/cusp/intro/> Not everything you
want, but at least an effort to make it close to your requirements.

~~~
tjr
Thank you for including the part about building an executable, and the little
backstory on it.

When I first started in Lisp, one of my early questions too was, "how do you
make an executable?" For a seasoned Lisper, that question might seem foreign,
but it makes perfect sense to a C programmer.

I asked the question on Usenet, trying to explain that not everyone I wanted
to give programs to had Lisp on their computer.

In response, someone tried to persuade me that you don't do such things with
Lisp. Someone else turned out to be a Franz salesman asking, "which platforms
are you talking about that don't have Lisp? we can supply Lisp on any
platform!"

~~~
gruseom
_someone tried to persuade me that you don't do such things with Lisp_

This always puzzled me too. Admittedly it's less of an issue now that we can
deploy programs over the web. But it's still kind of weird.

Here's my speculative answer. The classic Lisp programmer doesn't care that
much about building software for end users. He's more interested in amusing
himself and, occasionally, other Lisp programmers.

I don't mean to slam Lisp (which I love) or Lisp programmers (I am one). But I
believe I have observed evidence of the above.

~~~
schtog
Just mentioning, Dr Scheme has a make-exe command in the menu. But that's the
only way I know how to make an exe out of a lisp program. But then I have
never looked for a way either.

------
davidw
I'd go with a compromise along the lines of Ruby or Python, myself.

------
strlen
The real problem with PHP is that (despite the ability to run it from command
line, etc...) a language centered around web application. That's also it's
greatest strength: it's seamless and easy to integrate with Apache.

I wonder why the author wouldn't consider Perl: powerful Apache integration
(mod_perl), performance and great deal of expressive power. A PHP code monkey
could be trained to modify Perl and the presence of powerful and mature
testing tools (e.g. Test::More) and common libraries (DBI, myriad of XML
libraries, template libraries, etc...) can minimize the amount of damage a
junior coder will do.

(And if you're unable to use mod_perl, using CGI::Fast suffices for most cases
and is trivial with mod_fastcgi).

------
tjr
It seems the primary complaint here has to do with setting up Lisp web
application infrastructure.

Granted, it's not as out-of-the-box as getting started with PHP, but once
you've done your first Lisp web application, successive applications will be
much easier.

~~~
jimbokun
The other complaints are:

\- not much in terms of community to help answer questions or maintain your
code, whether a guy down the hallway, documentation, or answers to questions
you can Google for \- much greater probability of a random library existing
for PHP than for Lisp (which is perhaps another case of the first point)

I keep coming back to Clojure as a way to do Lisp and still get many of the
benefits of building on a popular platform (Java, in Clojure's case).

~~~
rbanffy
When he says "not much in terms of community to help answer questions or
maintain your code", he meant "I can´t google my way out of a tough
programming problem"

Lisp is not for sissies.

~~~
silentbicycle
Sometimes really remarkable programmers start out as "sissies", you know.

People who give the language a reputation of having a rude and insular
community accelerate its death.

~~~
rbanffy
As opposed to the sophisticated self-proclaimed programmers who give PHP the
reputation of being such an elegant tool.

Really remarkable programmers usually don't start out as sissies - they use,
understand and improve upon the tools other remarkable programmers gave them.
Or invent completely new ones.

And that is one reason why not to use Windows - it really won't help that
goal. The whole environment is not conductive to this king of tool refinement.

~~~
silentbicycle
I'm pretty sure nobody is saying PHP is elegant, just that they think it's
easier to set up and drop in place than Lisp, and it's easier to find junior
programmers familiar with it. Several loud voices in the Lisp community have
implied that this isn't really a problem, which is a great way to convince
people to write it off as a web programming platform.

Instead comparing PHP to Lisp for that purpose, I'd be more interested in a
comparison between PHP and Python or PHP and Ruby.

~~~
rbanffy
"Instead comparing PHP to Lisp for that purpose, I'd be more interested in a
comparison between PHP and Python or PHP and Ruby."

I agree. More to the point, it would be more interesting to compare PHP
frameworks to Rails or Django, as Ruby and Python are more general purpose
languages and PHP, while it can be used for other things, is built to generate
HTML.

The original (quite lame) article is in the lines that "I tried to use this
ocean liner to go to the supermarket and it is infinitely less convenient than
the car I was used to. Nobody should use ocean liners because cars are more
convenient". It´s awful.

~~~
silentbicycle
I think the comparison Brian Hurt makes between "core" and "edge" languages
([http://enfranchisedmind.com/blog/2008/09/20/programming-
lang...](http://enfranchisedmind.com/blog/2008/09/20/programming-languages-
are-pc-oss-circa-1986/)) is pretty relevant here. "Edge" languages are often
used as "glue" languages, because they're good at wrapping separate components
and making them work together, while "core" languages are usually better for
complicated systems that do most of their work internally, such as compilers.
Lisp and OCaml are primarily core languages, while Python and Perl are
primarily edge languages.

------
zandorg
Does anyone know of Clisp web server hosting?

I want to run my Clisp servents without any overhead.

------
gonzopancho
I couldn't even think of opening this. Its like comparing pig shit with gold
bars.

