
Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty - mikecane
http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/laptop/f/3517/t/19492918.aspx
======
jbk
As the main developer of VLC, we know about this story since a long time, and
this is just Dell putting crap components on their machine and blaming others.
Any discussion was impossible with them. So let me explain a bit...

In this case, VLC just uses the Windows APIs (DirectSound), and sends signed
integers of 16bits (s16) to the Windows Kernel.

VLC allows amplification of the INPUT above the sound that was decoded. This
is just like replay gain, broken codecs, badly recorded files or post-
amplification and can lead to saturation.

But this is exactly the same if you put your mp3 file through Audacity and
increase it and play with WMP, or if you put a DirectShow filter that
amplifies the volume after your codec output. For example, for a long time,
VLC ac3 and mp3 codecs were too low (-6dB) compared to the reference output.

At worse, this will reduce the dynamics and saturate a lot, but this is not
going to break your hardware.

VLC does not (and cannot) modify the OUTPUT volume to destroy the speakers.
VLC is a Software using the OFFICIAL platforms APIs.

The issue here is that Dell sound cards output power (that can be approached
by a factor of the quadratic of the amplitude) that Dell speakers cannot
handle. Simply said, the sound card outputs at max 10W, and the speakers only
can take 6W in, and neither their BIOS or drivers block this.

And as VLC is present on a lot of machines, it's simple to blame VLC.
"Correlation does not mean causation" is something that seems too complex for
cheap Dell support...

Maybe Dell should advise against playing Metal music and should only allow
Céline Dion music, because Metal saturates more...

EDIT: more details...

PS: they even provide a BIOS update for the fix... So, of course, VLC was the
issue...
[http://www.dell.com/support/troubleshooting/us/en/04/KCS/Kcs...](http://www.dell.com/support/troubleshooting/us/en/04/KCS/KcsArticles/ArticleView?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&docid=557836)

~~~
brador
How about detecting Dell Speakers and automatically setting the max volume to
100%, with a notification so the user can give an a-ok if they want to go
higher. That way, at least users know and can make a decision. Similar to the
Android warning if you set your volume too high that it could cause hearing
damage.

I'd prefer to be warned rather than surprised by this!

~~~
mertd
That's impractical. VLC is just using the standard OS API to send some sound
to speakers. Can you imagine every piece of software checking for every piece
of esoteric hardware and having some special behavior?

Maybe Microsoft could regulate the output for junk speakers, but really, Dell
is the one to blame here.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _Can you imagine every piece of software checking for every piece of
> esoteric hardware and having some special behavior?_

This is what MS Office does. A Microsoft engineer told me once that because
many printers lie to the OS about their capabilities, they built a giant
lookup table into the Office, that basically consists of "if printer model X,
vendor Y and firmware Z, then don't trust it about the fonts onboard, render
the text before sending instead".

~~~
byuu
I remember back in the day doing DirectDraw/Direct3D programming, I had to
have lots of "if video card type == x, then ignore these capabilities and do
this other thing instead" hacks. A much bigger issue back then when we had
more than three video card manufacturers. (it's still a minor issue today ...
nVidia cards tend to be way more permissive about OpenGL calls than AMD cards.
But I can afford two discrete cards and one onboard chipset.)

It's so completely impractical for a hobbyist project to own every possible
piece of hardware, or at least a huge majority of it. Yet it's nothing for a
Fortune 500 company to do the same.

Really slants the playing field away from independent software developers.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Or, you could crowdsource an open-source abstraction layer; this would level
the playing field again.

------
beloch
I bought a Dell M1330 laptop a few years ago and the speakers were crap even
by laptop standards. This was fine with me, since I planned to use headphones.
Unfortunately, the audio output was just as crappy! It had an insanely high
noise-floor! I had to get a USB DAC/head-phone amp to make things acceptable.
Lesson learned: Dell sucks at audio.

If the speakers in a consumer device like a laptop can be damaged by maxing
the volume then the laptop was not properly designed. This isn't a case of a
nutty audiophile mixing and matching unknown preamps, amps, and speakers and
managing to blow some cones by cranking it to 11. Dell has complete control
over the selection of components in this laptop and, if they cared to, could
include circuitry to limit power beneath a point that will damage the
speakers. They didn't. Alternatively, they could eschew a limiter and select
speaker components beefy enough to handle the maximum voltage that their DAC's
can output. They didn't. Bad design.

If Dell did the math and decided the number of users noticing permanent
speaker damage would be small enough that the reduced part costs would
outweigh the price of the resulting warranty service, that's their decision.
However, they should be on the hook to fix damaged caused by their cheap/poor
design.

------
donatj
VLC is incapable of increasing the actual power past 100%, all that is being
done is the waveform is being modified to be louder within the allowed
constraints. If this wrecks the speaker, any other non-VLCed sound could just
as easily, and the speakers are therefore underpowered for the laptops
internal amplifier. Class action sounds in order.

~~~
anaphor
Also many mastering engineers do the exact same thing to make the music
"louder" because the record label/artists demand it. Maybe Dell should start
making popular rock/pop music void the warranty as well.

~~~
ferongr
Well, mastering engineers rarely heavily clip audio (ok, Death Magnetic, but
that's an exception rather than the rule). What they do is apply heavy dynamic
range compression. Even in cases the signal clips lightly, it probably won't
do much damage (if at all) since the peaks are transient.

On the other hand, a movie with lots of low frequency content (explosions and
stuff) whose audio is clipping will damage the small full range speakers since
most of the audio energy is concentrated at the very low frequencies (where
the signal has a lot of power) and the peaks are long.

~~~
anaphor
I was being kind of tongue in cheek. But you're right, most mastering
engineers are competent enough to avoid clipping everything. Although you'd be
surprised at the amount of music that has clipping at a few points here and
there if you start listening for it (unfortunately audacity doesn't help much
here since it will lie about clipping if it's exactly at the max).

------
lucb1e
Anytime I call tech support, I'm running Windows 7 or 8.1 (depending on which
they support) with antivirus installed, firewall on, and the latest MSIE.
Hardware does not include an ssd unless that's the item I'm calling about. I
will also pretend trying to restart my system and router. Good to know I
should add Windows Media Player to the list.

~~~
x0054
Don't forget that your laptop hasn't moved from the table where you unpacked
it in months, you are located in a hermetically sealed, temperature and
humidity controlled room, the laptop has absolutely no software on it other
then the software it came with (updated to the latest version, of course), and
on normal days you simply turn it on and lightly brush it's casing. Come to
think about it, maybe skip the part about turning it on, that could be grounds
for voiding the warranty.

~~~
Too
Software updated to the latest version? Big nono. You must use the 4 year old
version, that came on a CD-ROM bundled with the computer.

------
Jare
That kind of amplitude abuse is the equivalent of pounding very hard on the
keyboard for long periods of time - it will break sooner than it would
normally have, and can rightfully be considered abuse. However, voiding the
warranty simply because of VLC installed is, again, the equivalent of voiding
the keyboard warranty simply because you are a bodybuilder.

Ok enough metaphors.

~~~
shawnz
If I am understanding this correctly, a specially crafted mp3 file, played in
Windows Media Player or similar, could cause the same symptoms that Dell is
indicating VLC could create. Surely that would be considered a totally normal
operating condition that the speakers should be tolerant against. It may be
heavy use, but does that mean it is abuse?

~~~
jbk
Yes, exactly. Use Audacity to increase the volume and play with WMP to get the
same result.

------
mikeash
I'm surprised that I can't find any mention of the fact that this behavior is
simply illegal, beyond the blatant technical stupidity. The Magnuson-Moss
warranty act in the US prohibits voiding a warranty simply due to the use of
third-party parts, unless those parts can actually be demonstrated to be the
cause of the problem. The mere presence of a part is not enough. They'd have
to show that your use of VLC actually caused this failure, and since I doubt
they're keeping the sort of logs that can show that, they have no case.

Companies like to talk about "voiding the warranty" for all kinds of stupid
stuff, and consumers don't know their rights so they often get away with it,
but what the law allows is considerably more constrained.

------
mansr
When the Samsung ARM Chromebook came out, people quickly found that careless
tinkering with alsamixer caused the speakers to overheat and melt the case as
a result of being driven with a high DC current. A driver update blocked the
control causing the damaging signal routing.

~~~
userbinator
They didn't bother to put $0.001 DC blocking capacitors on the DAC outputs?
This isn't a "bug in the kernel" or any software, it's a clear hardware flaw.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Be fair, those caps are easily two or three times that much.

~~~
userbinator
In relatively low quantities, yes: [http://www.digikey.com/product-
detail/en/CL05A105KP5NNND/CL0...](http://www.digikey.com/product-
detail/en/CL05A105KP5NNND/CL05A105KP5NNND-ND/3894185)

But when you're buying them in quantities that a company like Samsung would
(that above link is, amusingly enough, to ones that Samsung themselves make),
the price drops off rather steeply. $0.001USD is around what I can find for
buying them from China in 100Ku.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
I left the reply in jest. But while we're here. Capacitors vary widely in
price by type, capacitance, and quality. A 1uF multilayer ceramic is probably
one of the most common and cheapest to buy capacitors there is, except maybe
the .01uF. Output coupling of an audio amplifier requires a lot more
capacitance than ceramics can muster. That cap, if present is going to be an
electrolytic, and it is going to cost more than $0.001 or even $0.01 at qty.
Although I'm reading that direct coupled amplifiers are all the rage these
days, probably so they can get the expensive electrolytics off the BOM.

~~~
userbinator
I have the schematics for my laptop and it has 1uF ceramics on the speaker PA
inputs, that's why I linked to that particular one. The other common values
I've seen are 2u2 and 4u7, which is a little more expensive but will give more
bass --- not that it really matters on a tinny little laptop speaker anyway.
At least I'm happy to know that I won't burn out the speakers on my laptop
with DC.

------
sklivvz1971
In professional audio (and even amateur radio) one always puts speakers rated
for 1.5x the nominal output of the amp. At least. This makes sure that
whatever the input in the amp, the speakers are safe.

If Dell doesn't build audio properly, how can they blame the users? They
really have some gut...

~~~
lcrs
I was always taught the opposite rule for PA amps - they should be rated
higher than the speakers, as per
[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dWILAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&dq=...](http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dWILAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&dq=speaker+amp+power+matching#v=onepage&q=speaker%20amp%20power%20matching&f=false),
[http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/power-amp-buying-
guide/#mat...](http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/power-amp-buying-
guide/#matching) or similar. The reasoning being that a lower power amp would
have to run flat out, and clip, which pushes a lot of energy into the HF
drivers. Safer for the tweeters to have a more powerful amp which is not run
into clipping, even if some peaks exceed the cabinet's rated power.

The VLC volume control has always terrified me, I wish it would have AGC or at
least a soft limiter when pushed above 100%. I've seen people watch films with
it cranked up to 200% and the system volume turned down to compensate :(

------
pera
Next logic step: playing DUBSTEP voids your speaker warranty

------
hrjet
Dell support and policies are utterly broken. I had a Dell Vostro which worked
fine except at one time it started emitting fumes when running a CPU intensive
task. I was denied warranty because I was running Linux!

Since then I have vowed never to buy Dell.

------
noonespecial
All products eventually approach "if you use this product for anything at all,
it voids the warranty". How fast they get there is an indication of the
integrety (and managerial health) of the company behind them.

~~~
maaaats
In my country (Norway) we are already protected better by law than the
warranty in most cases, so what producers say will void it is often
meaningless.

If Dell said VLC was installed so warranty is void, I'd say I want the
computer fixed as a "reklamasjon"-case, and so they can't hide between stupid
rules like this. This also means that we are allowed to swap RAM, CPU's etc.
in our computers without fear of not getting the computer fixed if it later
breaks down for unrelated reasons.

------
serf
future headline : "Dell revokes hard-drive warranty for installation of
software. Cites excess read and write of sectors akin to abuse."

------
Aardwolf
Shouldn't instead Dell make the speakers not be able to get physically
damanged by software?

~~~
maxerickson
It would probably either cost more or the speakers would have a lower peak
volume.

I don't think it is a wild compromise to make some assumptions about the
sounds people will play through the speakers (and it's not like a spec
relating the max energy/time is going to help most shoppers).

~~~
Aardwolf
Well, it's also a wild compromise to say the warranty is void by installing
popular software. If they would instead say, the warranty is void if you go
above such and so threshold for such and so long (no matter with what
software), that would make sense, but this, just seems a cheap way of making
the warranty unexistent.

Anyway, a moderator from Dell replied that you can contact him if Dell refuses
to give support just by seeing VLC installed, so maybe it's better than it
seems.

~~~
maxerickson
Yeah, it's nonsense that they are straight up blaming VLC.

(But I don't think it is obviously unreasonable to sell a cheap laptop with
cheap speakers, configured to be able to make louder peaks)

------
ChuckMcM
Seems pretty bogus, sure you _can_ damage a speaker hooked directly up to some
audio source, but there so many components between the DirectSound API and the
speaker that making a system that can be damaged using the OS API's seems
quite lame.

------
__david__
So basically, Dell's crappy speaker/amp design can't handle square waves at
full volume. I suppose you shouldn't listen to loud chip-tunes either, then.

~~~
userbinator
This is particularly amusing to me, as someone who regularly enjoys more...
extreme genres of music that features lots of distortion and hard clipping. My
no-name cheap Chinese speakers and headphones haven't died because of it, in
fact my ears probably have less tolerance than the hardware.

------
aceofspades19
I used to work for Dell tech support, and I used to install VLC on customer's
machines all the time..woops. At that time there was no rule against it and we
generally assumed that software couldn't damage hardware. When I worked there,
Dell seemed to have one of the more lenient warranty policies of any company.

------
gautamsomani
I had once faced the exact same issue once in Mar 2009, so all I did was
called them again after some time from a different number and using a
different name and told them that No, VLC was not installed. And I got my
warranty upheld and speaker replaced.

------
bmoresbest55
This is insane. It's like saying LibreOffice can ruin your HDD, keyboard or
some other BS that they can come up with. I have a Dell XPS M1530, it is five
and a half years old and I remember the speakers blowing out in 2009. I got
them covered under the warranty no problem. I know I am in the minority when
saying that I like Dell and their support, I have had other problems and they
have had no problem fixing them. This my start to change my mind...

------
tokenadult
What is the current status of the vulnerability in VLC Media Player reported
by Secunia? I see that there has been some online discussion of this in places
outside Hacker News (which I searched the other day for more information about
Secunia's vulnerability report).

[http://secunia.com/advisories/52956/](http://secunia.com/advisories/52956/)

[http://secunia.com/blog/shooting-the-
messenger-372](http://secunia.com/blog/shooting-the-messenger-372)

[http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/07/10/1520245/vlc-and-
secuni...](http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/07/10/1520245/vlc-and-secunia-
fighting-over-vulnerability-reports)

I have tried to update VLC Media Player on one machine on my home network, and
the update fails, suggesting that the VLC Media Player installation on that
computer may already be compromised by malware (which has previously been
detected on that machine). What is the recommendation for current VLC Media
Player users to make sure that they have a recently updated, reasonably safe
installation of VLC Media Player that doesn't open up their computer to other
vulnerabilities?

~~~
dave809
wait, so you currently have an infected computer on your home network?

~~~
tokenadult
Secunia reports that I need to update VLC Media Player on a computer from
which I recently removed a lot of malware (with the help of Malware Bytes, of
which I have a purchased copy on that computer). I installed Secunia on the
same computer, and it has not been able to do its update of VLC Media Player,
nor have I been able to get an update of that to install by going directly to
the VLC Media Player website and downloading the latest version. That is
worrisome.

Would I be better off just completely uninstalling VLC Media Player?

AFTER EDIT: I might have considered a direct answer to my question (whatever
the answer was) more helpful than a silent downvote to what was, after all,
just a polite response to a question that someone asked me.

AFTER FURTHER EDIT: After some more rebooting of the previously infected
computer, the operating system and Secunia both report that VLC Media Player
version 2.1.3 is installed, and that is not reported to have any problem by
Secunia. So I will leave that alone. The computer from which I usually post to
HN, a different computer on the same home network, does not have VLC Media
Player installed. I try to keep a close-to-bare-stock set of installed
programs on this computer, but other users in my household (= teenage boys who
aspire to be hackers) tend to install programs I've never heard of on the
other computer on our home network, and my wife, who has other things on her
mind, occasionally doesn't notice installations of crapware or adware or
bloatware that tag along with legitimate program updates on that computer. So
that other computer tends to be the vector for malware attacks on the home
network here. Thanks for any further comments participants here have on how to
keep a home network safe when not all users follow strict quarantine policies.

~~~
Crito
I'd suggest just nuking the entirety of that computer from orbit.
"Uninstalling" malware is not worth the risk/effort.

------
jokoon
If DELL is right that would mean even if I craft a sound file with a very high
amplitude, play it with another software, it should not damage the speakers.

I would have thought windows could limitate the amplitude of the sound sent to
the hardware, maybe VLC is somehow bypassing this.

Seems like an odd issue though.

------
AndyKelley
I'm proud of the fact that soon my audio streaming library will be able to
void Dell warranties too!

[https://github.com/andrewrk/libgroove/issues/45](https://github.com/andrewrk/libgroove/issues/45)

------
ctdonath
Possibly relevant anecdote...

I once acquired an audio geologic recording of the tragic Christmas Eve
tsunami in Indonesia. It was an interesting listen, with a lot of bass/sub-
base frequencies. Played at what seemed a reasonable listening volume, it
managed to destroy my iPod headphones. Seems some sounds can be inherently
damaging to less robust equipment when seemingly operated well within sensible
limits.

(The replacement of said headphones cemented my appreciation of Apple: at a
time Apple wasn't selling headphones alone, upon my consternation of not being
able to buy a set, a clerk ripped open a random box and handed me new
headphones gratis.)

------
g123g
Even HP has the same policy which I found to my dismay three years back.

------
jijji
sounds like buggy speaker hardware or firmware. How about don't use Dell
laptops to play audio?

------
omerh
I Killed my speakers on Dell Latitude 6330 when increase the volume to 200% (i
got them replaced cause its my work laptop)

------
altero
Maybe am I too big nerd, but who would send laptop for repairs without wiping
out harddrive first?

------
xerophtye
Random question, if my speakers get blown, and I uninstall VLC before taking
in my laptop for repair, does that mean the warranty will cover it?

(Yes i suppose that is morally wrong, but so is blaming VLC for your own bad
designs)

------
acomjean
This is why I use VLC. On the white polycarb apple macbooks the audio is
really quiet. VLC made it useful by allowing me to turn the audio up louder
(up to 200%). No damage to speakers here.

------
lucaspottersky
Yeah, my speakers have blown up too... damn Dell and their cheap shit.

------
razzmataz
Is this true of the Latitude series of laptops? Or just the XPS? I would think
the Commercial grade hardware would be a bit tougher.

------
pistle
Who could stand to listen to audio from those crappy speakers, let alone at
such a saturated loudness on said crappy speakers?

------
Glyptodon
Dell owners should file a class action for use of defective speaker
components.

------
retrogradeorbit
Audio engineer here. All this means is the speakers in Dell laptops are crap.

------
JetSpiegel
Wait, people use laptop speakers?

------
zephjc
What kind of person uses crappy laptop speakers for media consumption?

~~~
collyw
far too many people do, and many annoyingly listen to music through the crappy
speakers on their phone, usually in public.

~~~
zephjc
Then if they blow out their crappy speakers, maybe that will leave them with
no recourse but to plug their headphones in

------
intinno
Yep, happened with me as well in India

------
guard-of-terra
This is stupid. They are making speakers that can't withstand some cases of
within-the-bounds PCM signal.

If we had a normal society anywhere on earth they would be sued to the ground
there.

~~~
Ma8ee
Speakers are built to be able to withstand short peaks with high power to
reflect the dynamic in the music or your movie. This is what is abused to be
able to play loud sounds continuously. You could take the possibility to do
that away, but then you would of course also remove some of the dynamics out
of the music.

But of course, the people that burn their speakers this way don't care about
dynamics or evidently about sound quality if they press their computer
speakers like this. Can't sound not even a little good.

~~~
philliphaydon
Not sure if you've ever owned a Dell laptop, but I'll never buy one again. On
a couple of occasions I have tried to play DVD's on them and cannot hear
people talking with the volume up. Put headphones on and its too loud. Dell
speakers are junk.

~~~
aestra
Um in my experience all laptop speakers of all brands are like that.

~~~
skriticos2
No. I have a System76 Ubuntu laptop and the speaker quality is excellent.
Plays music nicely and sound is clear and crisp. How many quality laptops do
you have experience with?

~~~
aestra
Never had a System76, but I've owned a few Asus and a Toshiba and when I lived
with 5 other people in college, the topic came up and we all agreed on the
quality of our respective laptop speakers. Of course I was in college quite a
while ago.

------
robinhoodexe
What the...?

------
zimbatm
Not speaking of Dell's behavior but VLC should maybe add a warning to the
settings when the user goes over 100% if it damages the speakers.

~~~
jbk
VLC cannot damage anything more than any other player using the Windows APIs.

~~~
NeliX4
Yes it does. It makes too simple for non-techical user to make the signal
distorted. Distorted signal can damage a speaker, even in low volume. It's
irrelevat to blame "the others do it too".

I've seen it happen many times in meetings. 1\. Presenter shows a video and
volume is low. 2\. Presenter adds volume from VLC to 200% and sound signal
gets distorted. 3\. Sound is awful, no-one can hear anything and people are
doing nothing to fix it, because they think that speakers are broken.

Please VLC, fix your player so that it has good sounding limiter on the
"output". It's not difficult.

