
Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how we throw things away - adrian_mrd
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-06/dieter-rams-the-braun-design-who-made-products-to-last-lifetime/10970850
======
nimbius
speaking from experience as an engine mechanic, this type of disposable
consumerism is absolutely rampant in luxury vehicles. im not sure if its
designed to be an expression of luxury, or if the designers just dont care,
but it shows in the quality of the final product that most of these icons of
performance and opulence are due for major service every few thousand miles.

plastic oil filter modules: absolute garbage but Chrysler fell in love with
them during the Daimler years and now they show up in basically everything
built off the E series chassis. BMW also use them, and they hold up to thermal
stress very poorly. can not be recycled in the US like metal filters and have
to be shipped, if you want, to germany.

plastic water pumps/plastic cooling systems: notoriously BMW, but also show up
on Maserati so im told. they leak like a sieve and youll replace a major part
of the system every 5k miles. cannot be recycled.

cheap hydraulics: im talking about that paddle shift dual clutch weirdness
that shows up in high-performance mercedes 6 liter v8 engines with the double
turbos. You build an engine that costs 3/4 of the vehicle value and you cheap
out at the last minute with pot-steel roller bearings? in an engine that
delivers north of 500 horsepower? tapered rollers or even high nickel needle
bearings would keep the hydraulics running for years, but the hydraulic
actuation assembly for the paddle shift stuff is an absolute dumpster fire.
you cant disassemble the actuator, or service the bearings. the whole thing
gets thrown out and replaced.

death by cad: this is more 'right to repair' but engines that were designed in
a laboratory by a grad student from Malaysia who was told to 'make it work.'
to service the turbo on some lexus F sports, you must disassembly the entire
front of the car. headlights have to come off, the radiator and forward
steering linkage too. its a $400 part, but thats $2300 in labor.

~~~
kemiller
Out of curiosity, are there any brands which don’t do this? I’m a little
dismayed that even Lexus does this.

~~~
galfarragem
Anecdata says that Japanese cars are the most reliable ones. (Old) Toyotas in
Africa are a must. They endure and can be repaired in a local car workshop.

~~~
oldToyotas
So what happens to Africa when the old cars finally completely disappear, and
nothing can be repaired in any reasonable sense of the word?

Probably hard to know, but by now, we're already seeing that blu-ray players
are rendered nearly useless by lost remote controls (because they ( _all_ blu-
ray player manufacturers) no longer build adequate physical playback controls
into the set top box, and 99% of blu-ray on-disc software requires a
directional keys and an enter key to trigger playback of the main content,
which can only be found on remote controls), leading to a necessity for
bootleggers that can rip and recopy the main content of the movie to a version
stripped of menus, that immediately plays automatically upon insertion.

~~~
dTal
>blu-ray on-disc software

It's shocking to me that this is even a thing. I looked it up and apparently
Blu-ray players are required to execute Java off the disc! How far we've come
since the Sony CD rootkit days...

A cursory read over the spec on Wikipedia indicates (among other horrifying
things) that it is possible and supported to release a Blu-ray that contains
no media, but instead streams it over the internet from the studio's server.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J)

~~~
detaro
> _Where can I find more about how it works? Is there a VM of some sort?_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-
ray#Java_software_interfac...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-
ray#Java_software_interface)

~~~
dTal
Ah, sorry, I looked it up myself and edited my comment. Bad habit of mine.
Thanks anyway.

------
starky
This is something that bothers me as well, though my reasons are slightly
different. It feels that every new product that is released now is purely
designed to drive new sales for some flashy feature that actually make the
product worse and less reliable. I'm just not interested in things that have
IoT/"smart" features added on, I want something high quality that works
reliably and well because it is designed thoughtfully.

I realize that these desires simply go against the shareholder mindset that a
corporation must be constantly growing and releasing new products in order to
be viable. So we aren't likely to see any shift anytime soon.

~~~
JKCalhoun
Reading the article the thought occurred to me that "disposable" is probably
more a factor fo cost + materials (and obviously related). By that I mean, if
a thing is cheap and "plasticy" it really doesn't matter how beautifully
designed it is — it will feel throwaway. Make the thing from aluminum, glass,
magnesium, steel ... the price goes up (the durability goes up) but the value
(both perceived and monetary of course) go up as well.

While Apple (as an example) try to tempt their customers each year with
something new and new-featured, I'm not actually aware of people tossing out
their old iPhones (or MacBooks for that matter) even if they do in fact spring
for the latest. Instead they seem to get handed down or repurposed (media
center, man-cave, etc.).

I don't feel the same way about my $150 plastic Chromebook.

~~~
andai
The retina MacBook Pro is by far my favorite machine. I remember for many
weeks, being delighted every time I saw it, which isn't an experience I've had
with any other kind of laptop.

I also tried an iPhone for a while, but couldn't get the hang of iOS. The
physical device itself, though, was great, not just visually, but the tactile
experience is spot on. I wish I lived in a world where Apple made Android
phones.

~~~
coldtea
> _I also tried an iPhone for a while, but couldn 't get the hang of iOS._

Huh? It's a much more designed and coherent experience than Android.

~~~
Mikeb85
It really isn't. My girlfriend is a committed iOS user, I'm not. She recently
got a new iPhone. Her apps and info transferred over through iCloud, kind of
(certainly wasn't as smooth as setting up a new Android device, but it mostly
worked), but she couldn't sign into email through Apple's app. There was no
setting in the app itself to manage accounts. So we went to the settings app,
searched for the email app entry, no dice. Eventually through trial and error,
we discovered some obscure entry in the settings app to manage accounts. It
makes no sense at all. Literally none. Why not just manage email accounts
through the email app? In the Gmail app, want to add a Hotmail account, it's
in the fucking Gmail app's settings, where it makes sense. Not in some god
forbidden obscure entry 4 layers deep in the OS settings app. No, it's in the
email app, where is the first place every sane person would assume.

~~~
TylerE
A top level settings item called “Passwords and Accounts” is obscure?

~~~
Mikeb85
Why wouldn't you manage email accounts through the email app? It makes enough
sense that it's what all other email apps do...

~~~
thrav
Because “email” accounts aren’t actually email accounts. They typically
include Notes, Contacts, Calendars, and many other associated pieces of
functionality that span multiple independent apps, and you don’t want to have
to log in 4 different times.

~~~
Mikeb85
On an Android phone you don't have to re-log in. You can share accounts across
apps. Accounts are also in the settings. You can still manage your email
accounts through the emails apps however, and the makers of most apps allow
you to manage your account in the app itself, even if the login spans multiple
apps. It just makes no sense to not have it in the app at all.

~~~
snazz
Sharing accounts across apps also works on iOS, FWIW. Most Google-branded apps
will offer a “Continue as _____” button on the first open if you’ve signed in
to another one of their apps.

~~~
Mikeb85
That's not the issue. The issue is the lack of account management in the Apple
email app itself. For example, let's say you're using mail to manage a Gmail
account and Outlook account. You can't simply manage those accounts from the
email app. Odds are you don't have an Outlook login across multiple apps on an
iPhone (fuck MS), so why can't you access it from the app itself?

Anyhow, this is becoming circular. I guess if you've used an iOS device
forever you get used to its quirks, but it makes no damn sense if you use
other OSes. Gmail, you can manage accounts within the app. Apple's app, you
can't. Makes no sense.

~~~
TylerE
> Odds are you don't have an Outlook login across multiple apps on an iPhone
> (fuck MS), so why can't you access it from the app itself?

HUH?? This is exactly why Accounts are a global setting.

What you are describing it literally EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS on iOS. Set it up
once and it will work in Mail and Calendar

------
rebuilder
I've wanted to buy durable items - far from luxury cars, things like
lawnmowers and chainsaws etc. What I've realized is that durability seems to
come from having simple mechanisms that are relatively easy to service and
maintain. But that implies that you have to maintain the machines. You have to
clean your chainsaw regularly, you need to know how to adjust the carburetor,
you need to take the time to sharpen the blades etc.

For the luxury market, that probably means the customer pays someone to do
that work. Maybe it's just cheaper to put in disposable parts that are
replaced, since labour costs are pretty high these days.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
The buyers of these cars only keep them for three years. That's their design
life.

Huffy bikes were only ridden for 50 cumulative miles over their lifetime and
were designed for just that.

~~~
smcl
Was that a typo, or is there a bike that is literally only expected to be used
for a couple of bike trips?

~~~
hedora
In fairness, they’ll last much more than 50 miles if kept inside and properly
lubricated.

However, they use notoriously non-standard parts. So, if you want to fix your
$100 bike, you’re looking at paying for someone to custom machine the
replacement part.

You can’t even just find an old huffy and scavenge parts off those, since the
geomoetries / threads / etc change constantly, so you’d need to find one made
in the same production run as the one you are repairing.

They are disposable kid bikes. They don’t even make frames big enough for 6’
tall men. (and it is not even close; not sure what the cutoff is. 5’9”,
maybe?)

------
mikekchar
Not completely related, but... I always wanted to try an experiment: Don't buy
any dishes. Adapt whatever packaging that you buy your food with to use as
dishes. So a yogurt container becomes a bowl. The styrofoam trays that have
meat on them become a plate (don't forget to disinfect it first...) Plastic
drink bottles become cups (you can make a surprisingly nice wine bottle out of
the top of a soda bottle). I wonder how long it would take you to kit yourself
out with a complete set of dishes...

I often think that even as late as 20 years ago, you could go to your local
tofu maker here in Japan with a container and they would put tofu in it for
you[0]. If you imagine that you would only need 1 tofu container for your
whole life, you could afford to have a _really_ nice tofu container.

Out of stubbornness (and the fact that I live in a country that is hot most of
the time), I wash _all_ of my containers before I throw them out. I get sad,
though, that I have all this stuff which is perfectly usable, but if I'm
honest I don't want to use because it is crappy. I want that lovely $100 tofu
container rather than the $0.00001 plastic wrapping. I want to look at and
touch and enjoy nice stuff every day. It seems to me that it's kind of what
it's like to be super rich, where you _never_ see the garbage -- everything is
repackaged into lovely containers for you.

Of course, in reality, the Andy Warhol-esq lifestyle we live, where everything
is commoditised and you can't buy a $10,000 bottle of Coke that tastes
different from a $1 bottle of coke is built upon the efficiencies of being
able to dispose of these transitory containers. I wonder how much we lose as a
society for running virtually every price to the lowest possible level.

[0] - There is a small family run tofu maker in my town and I'm always tempted
just to show up with a tofu container that I could buy at an antique shop just
to see what they would say. Maybe they would sell me tofu... That would be
awesome.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I always wanted to try similar experiment - to see what I can build for the
house out of used packaging; in particular, large plastic bottles from soft
drinks (we already drink filtered tap water instead of buying bottled). The
amount of plastic packaging I find myself throwing away weekly is ridiculous,
and it's really hard to avoid it. We segregate trash, but with the stories
breaking out recently that recycling is a code word for "shipping out to
poorer countries to be dumped all over the place", one wonders what's the
point.

> _I wonder how much we lose as a society for running virtually every price to
> the lowest possible level._

We're losing the habitability of our planet.

I thought long about this in the past, and honestly - disposable packaging
wouldn't be a bad thing _iff_ it was efficiently (and actually) reused or
recycled after being disposed of, and if we didn't have problems with energy
security and fossil-fuel-induced climate change. 24ᵗʰ century humanity from
Star Trek would be able to use disposable packaging to their heart's content
(and note that in the show, _they didn 't_). Our Earth can't afford this. And
yet we do, and it's a market failure.

~~~
Joakal
Make the producers take back garbage that's not recyclable/biodegradable as
condition for selling.

Market externality now internalised.

Imagine garbage bins gone from streets, only green/recycable bins. Yes,
consumers have to return garbage. Otherwise, those with long term goods have
to subsidise those that throw out garbage (rates/taxes for gatbage
trucks/landfill).

------
krm01
Rams has contributed valuable lessons to the design community. You can read
more about how his work influenced Apple products here:
[https://www.cultofmac.com/188753/the-braun-products-that-
ins...](https://www.cultofmac.com/188753/the-braun-products-that-inspired-
apples-iconic-designs-gallery/)

His utopian perspective only works if a designer of his caliber is balanced
with a visionary CEO. He had a chance to work with such a CEO at Braun. The
last time we had such a magic duo was with Steve Jobs & Jony Ive.

~~~
devmunchies
the same Ive who prided himself in designing the PoS macbook keyboard. I
remember when they were first launching that new keyboard there was a video of
him touting its revolutionary new design.

He is a good designer but needs to prioritize reliability/longevity a bit
more.

~~~
m_mueller
That's the point, you need a counter weight on the product management side.
Jobs/Ive also made marvels like the 12inch powerbook or the iPhone 3GS or the
swivel-LCD iMac. Not all was great but there was a high number of winners
coming out of that duo. The only thing since then that's on par are the
Airpods IMO.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
The swivel-LCD iMac was terrible, it was almost impossible to service or
adjust and didn't hold up for very long. I had to wedge the arm to keep mine
upright.

------
snazz
I love my Nikon D80, a fairly mid-range to high-end DSLR from 2006. It might
be challenging to repair (since it is full of a ton of complex and tiny
mechanical and electronic components), but it has lasted me over a decade and
still competes favorably with smartphone cameras (despite the huge advances in
sensors [the D80 has a CCD] and processing since then). I haven’t needed to
repair it and haven’t really considered replacing it for the last 12 (going on
13) years.

It wasn’t too cheap, but it was obviously meant to last. Nikon has since made
cheaper, junkier consumer cameras (basically anything without the sub-
command/aperture dial, which is under the shutter button), but the slightly
higher-end models have stayed very similarly long-lasting and well-designed as
my old D80.

The question is: will any smartphone ever begin to compete with that kind of
longevity?

~~~
steelframe
To that point, I'm linking here are a couple of images I took with my Pixel 2
phone while I was on vacation last year. The post-processing technology in the
modern cell phone effectively compensates for intrinsic shortcomings in things
like the tiny and shallow lens.

It takes multiple images at different exposures, detects edges/objects, and
automatically composes the images to deal with backlight:
[https://i.imgur.com/01kVB3O.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/01kVB3O.jpg)

It simulates portrait photography by detecting which objects are close and
which are further away, applying various levels of blur to several composed
layers: [https://i.imgur.com/M5h2q3r.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/M5h2q3r.jpg)

In hindsight, I have no regrets using my phone rather than dragging along my
DSLR on my vacation, particularly because I'm one of those ultralight "take
only a 19-liter backpack" types. I just don't see the marginal benefit of
whatever that bulky 15-year-old technology has over today's ML-enhanced
technology.

But I guess your point was about longevity. For me, my phone serves many more
functions than just photography, and so I feel that I get so much more out of
it than just that one thing. In that sense, it's hard for me to tease apart
the camera from the rest of what the phone does when I make the decision to
upgrade it. I suppose I can give some signal there, in that I haven't found
any reason to replace my Pixel 2 yet.

~~~
kmlx
i agree with your sentiment. until i zoom-in on one of those photos.

~~~
snazz
I’m afraid that has more to do with Imgur than the original pictures.

~~~
kmlx
i was referring to RAW. just take any pixel or iphone photo and zoom-in. now
zoom-in on a photo taken by a dslr.

~~~
steelframe
I totally agree about the amount of detail being much higher on DSLR. However
neither I nor anybody I've shown my vacation photos to have wanted to zoom in
on any of them. And there exists commercialized ML technology to actually
increase detail: [https://topazlabs.com/gigapixel-
ai/](https://topazlabs.com/gigapixel-ai/)

I'm sure larger lenses with higher resolution sensors will always have a place
in photography. Just not on my vacations.

~~~
kmlx
i agree with your comment. for me vacations are tricky. for some all i need is
a phone. for others i simply can't take photos without a proper
dslr/mirrorless (safari) or sometimes a gopro (underwater).

------
butterfi
I've started to wonder if designing things to last is truly the best option.
Sometimes well built things out live their usefulness and then you have this
well built paper weight. Braun razors are a good example. I have one that
still works, but I stopped using it after several years. No one wants a used
razor, so what happens to it? I think we need to stop trying to make things a
permanent as we can and start thinking more about sustainability.

~~~
einr
_No one wants a used razor_

This attitude is part of the problem. Maybe you're right -- although there are
450 listings for used men's Braun electric razors on eBay right now so it's a
bit stark to claim that "no one wants a used razor" \-- but being squeamish
about stuff like this is a silly attitude that we should change. "Eww skin
cells and hair" is not a valid excuse to throw away functioning things. We
have running water, dishwashers and disinfectants.

I don't mean this as an attack on you, but on this prevalent attitude in
society that makes you feel like your used razor is worthless.

~~~
chrisseaton
Medical professionals say that a used razor can transmit infections and
recommend even monogamous couples don’t share them. They wouldn’t re-use a
razor more than they’d re-use a needle. You need to apply a little common
sense beyond saying re-use everything.

~~~
jkestner
#notallmedicalprofessionals, says my SO. Needles get thrown because they're
cheap, and expensive instruments get sterilized. Boiling will kill the few
things that can survive on stainless steel, like the virii that cause
hepatitis.

But we don't need to nitpick one tree, and miss the forest of products can be
designed better for reuse. The central issue in my mind is that companies are
usually incentivized for obsolescence.

You have exceptions like Patagonia with strong DNA for societal good, but
companies generally need some extrinsic motivation. What could be effective
here? I can see service models working, as the company providing hardware
would want longevity to save costs, but I don't want my stuff's lifespan to be
connected to its manufacturer.

~~~
blattimwind
Surgery tools are a common application for ultrasonic cleaners, because "only
an ultrasonic cleaner actually gets in all the small nooks and crannies of a
complex instruments and removes blood and tissue from those" (or words to that
effect).

------
sigi45
I watched a video today or something where you can see human beings testing a
kids toy. You know that those humans spend there life building or testing
plastic toys for kids in europe etc. which will play with it for a short time
and wouldn't care for the world if that toy would be something else.

I feel sometimes bad hiring someone to do something i can do. I do know that a
professional painter can paint my walls better and quicker than i can and
thats probably okay but it still feels weird.

I also visited a 1 Dollar Store in US because we were looking for some
tweezers and found them there. Those have been so bad, they couldn't hold onto
anything. I also saw a cable adapter thingy which was 100% not functional as i
was very aware of both plugs.This broken shit made it half around the world to
be thrown away by me.

We should stop producing shit just because we can.

~~~
Gibbon1
I have a pair of tweezers I bought from an electronic supply house 30 years
ago for what $10. They are hard nickel tool steel. Sharp as ever.

The ones we buy at work last about 6 months before the tips get ruined. Why
because it's cheaper to make them out of soft stainless. And there is no
competition they are all crap.

~~~
blattimwind
Similarly it is basically impossible to buy good files today, because they're
all somewhat dull and don't last. I have German, French and Swiss made files
from well over forty years ago, which I received in their original wax paper
packaging. They are much sharper now and seem to last longer than what I can
buy new from the same German manufacturer _today_.

It is like someone forgot how to make proper file steel. Real shame. You'd
maybe expect them to get a little bit better, for them to last longer, because
more modern steels and better process controls for heat treating etc. may be
used, but evidently this isn't the case.

------
herf
Hustwit's documentary is quite wonderful.

[https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm](https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm)

------
JKCalhoun
Just cosmopolitan enough to know who he is, not cosmopolitan enough to know he
is still alive. Fun read.

~~~
ddalex
I can't figure out if you're referring to yourself or Mr Rams as cosmopolitan

~~~
will_pseudonym
> Just cosmopolitan enough to know who he is, not cosmopolitan enough to know
> he is still alive. Fun read.

Replying in case others may benefit from the brief explanation. JKCalhoun is
describing the degree to which he, JKCalhoun, is cosmopolitan--based on the
amount of knowledge he had about Rams. It's missing an implicit "I'm".

The sentences can be fully formed as this: "I'm just cosmopolitan enough to
know who he is, not cosmopolitan enough to know he is still alive."

~~~
JKCalhoun
Yes, thank you. ;-)

------
caymanjim
I'm not sure if I completely buy the premise of this. We certainly have a lot
of cheap, disposable things in our lives, but we also have plenty of durable
items as well.

Most of the things that I own that are more durable are low-tech, like kitchen
items. Yes, you can buy cheap, semi-disposable frying pans, and budget
appliances, but that's always been the case, even back in Rams's day. I've
owned and used the same cast iron pans, ceramic coffee mugs, drinking glasses,
silverware, etc. for in some cases decades. They work and there's no reason to
upgrade them.

I've got tools that I've been using for decades. Some were inherited from my
father. Some I purchased myself. Manual tools can last nearly forever. Plenty
of power tools last decades (decent brand drills, circular saws, etc). This
hasn't changed. You can also buy cheap, poorly-built versions of many of these
things, if you either can't afford or don't need better quality. Again, this
has always been the case, even 50 years ago.

There's a lot more stuff now, and a lot more cheap stuff to be sure. This
creates a disposable culture, but it's not that high-quality, repairable items
have disappeared completely; it's just that now people who don't need or want
them have more cheap alternatives to choose from.

Electronics are an exception to this. Computers and phones in particular are
semi-disposable, over a few years. This isn't because they're shoddily-built
and unrepairable, it's because they become obsolete. I still have 15-year-old
computers that work fine, and have some components that are 20+ years old.
They're sturdy, they function just as well as when they were made, but they're
obsolete. My primary gaming desktop is nearly 10 years old, though, and it's
still going strong. I've upgraded the video card and storage a few times, but
other than that, it's almost all original 2011 equipment, and it still plays
all modern games. That's totally repairable and self-serviceable.

I've heard people bemoan modern quality and disposability before, but I really
don't see it as the modern plague it's described as. Plenty of junk was
manufactured 75 years ago, but the things that have survived were the items
that were built well and had timeless value. I bet Rams has thrown out his old
black & white TV, and that photo of him sitting on his cheap, disposable
plastic patio furniture shows that he's prone to the same price-vs-quality
decisions as the rest of us.

~~~
PorterDuff
To me, a fascinating angle is when the electronics obsolescence curve runs
into the mechanical one. Cars are filled with that kind of thing, but two more
interesting ones are products like sewing machines and power tools. Both used
to be overdesigned, now they have have additional features and underdesign
enabled by built-in microcontrollers. In drills, for instance, it'll back off
on the power where an earlier model needed to be able to handle an animal
wielding it.

~~~
caymanjim
This is often a good thing, as it can add some valuable functionality, but it
drives me nuts when it goes wrong. I've had to deal with washing machines
where the mechanical bits were perfectly fine, but the electronics fried. That
can be expensive to fix, to the point that throwing it out and buying a used
one off Craigslist is the more economical option. Same with modern stoves. I
have never in my life gotten any benefit from fancy electronics on a washing
machine, and the only sensible reason for non-mechanical parts on a gas stove
is a timer, but I'd honestly prefer a simple pure-mechanical one that is going
to last forever.

~~~
PorterDuff
It'll be interesting to see what a 12 year old Tesla is worth.

Electronic control boards on ovens is a terrible idea. Guess what usually
breaks on one (like mine, we don't use it so it's been broken for 4 years).

~~~
yellow_lead
We have an oven at home that's about to be worthless because of a proprietary
electrical ribbon intermittently failing. Sigh

------
ekianjo
The relationship with Apple products only stop at their look: Apple products
were never meant to be repaired.

------
radicaldreamer
Patagonia embodies these principles far more than Apple

------
RickJWagner
Wow, he looks a lot like Chevy Chase.

I like his message, though. We should throw away a lot less stuff.

\- Saves natural resources \- Reduces landfills \- Provides jobs (the repair
technicians)

Seems like a good future trend.

~~~
galfarragem
... And reduces corporations profits. They want to sell you the same product
cyclically, not once in your lifetime. Corporations don't give a f*ck about
saving resources, reducing waste or providing jobs to repair technicians
unless it hurts them economically or they take a cut somewhere in the process.
That's the 'bad part' of capitalism.

Anyway I agree with you. It's a pity that open source hardware is still in the
infancy. Software shows us that open source can be unbeatable and even
corporations have to comply if they want to survive.

~~~
mc32
Why can’t they run the repair shops? Alternatively they can run things like
the old ATT and lease better built but more expensive items?

~~~
galfarragem
As a last resort they can - if the market forces them to - but I suspect that
is less profitable than selling new stuff cyclically.

------
huffmsa
Well I know what I'm watching tonight.

------
panzerklein
Article by Buffy Gorrilla, huh? I like it.

------
microcolonel
Remind yourself daily that a better way to effect change on this matter is to
choose to buy things which are not intentionally disposable.

If you have the cash, it is your responsibility to lead the way as a consumer,
people will only try to make a living in industries where people are spending
money.

------
criddell
What are some new products that 20 years from now will be heralded as design
icons?

------
dmitryminkovsky
[https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-
conspiracy/](https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-conspiracy/) is my
favorite documentary on this subject.

------
neuro
Today, I couldn't find a steel wire brush although it labeled "steel wire
brush". The bristles were some type of polymer designed to fail after 1 use. I
didn't buy it.

~~~
bash-j
Maybe because people who use them to clean their BBQs have been getting steel
wires stuck inside them. Probably too much a risk now for the companies who
used to make them?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12409425](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12409425)

[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-13/barbecue-brush-
bristl...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-13/barbecue-brush-bristle-
injures-mans-pancreas/8516800)

------
electrichead
Are there examples of products made today that have this ethos of lasting for
a lifetime?

As a side note on cars, what are some cars that would last a long time and are
made of parts that are serviceable?

------
amelius
Stop buying laptops, and buy a PC with expansion slots, so you can upgrade
your computer for a while instead of buying a new one every year.

~~~
criddell
I used to buy new computers whenever the new one was twice as fast as the old
one. In the 80's that sometimes meant every year. At some point the clock
speed stopped going up and more cores were added instead. I think that's about
the point I stopped feeling the need to upgrade due to speed.

Now I do it more out of reliability concerns. Replacing my desktop after 5-6
years might be a waste of money, but if I'm down for a day or two that will
cost me more.

------
rglover
If you haven't, make sure to watch Gary Hustwit's doc on Dieter. Really great.

------
mips_avatar
He has also designed some fantastic disposable toothbrushes and razors.

------
skookumchuck
Where can I view the documentary Rams?

~~~
sbr464
[https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm](https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm)

They have a Vimeo Apple TV app, or download the mp4 etc when purchased there

------
akras14
Amen

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Ericson2314
Better end capitalism if you don't want planned obselessence. Rams shouldn't
give himself a hard time over that.

~~~
omosubi
Capitalism itself isn't the problem it's our refusal to change market forces
to force companies and individuals to pay for the disposal of the stuff when
we no longer have a use for it. This could easily be done if we had the
political will power. all the solutions to this exist currently we just aren't
taking advantage of them.

~~~
Ericson2314
Even if we had all the perfect excise taxes, there's no theoretical reason
planned obselessence would take place in other ways. (E.g. company buys your
trash and recycles it into new thing they sell you at profit.)

The imperative to get more revenue always points towards rent seeking. I'm not
even sure how to theoretically separate planned obeselessence from other forms
of rent seeking.

The left is derrided for wanting to abolish private property, but the irony is
capitalism itself tends towards concentrating ownership away from all from
most of us.

~~~
Ericson2314
I wonder how often incandescent lightbulbs are/were recycled. That is probably
as closest example in reality to my planned obselessence + recycling example.
(Certainly glass and iron are relatively easy to recycle, not sure about
tungsten.)

------
rdlecler1
Today's product improvements happen faster today and many of the improvements
are driven by software not just hardware. I get a new iPhone every two years
because it is significantly better than the last generation: faster, longer
battery life, bigger more vivid screen. Also newer cars are increasingly safer
than older cars. And if I want the latest car why should I pay more for
quality today when it's only going to be beneficial for the next owners?

~~~
jstarfish
> And if I want the latest car why should I pay more for quality today when
> it's only going to be beneficial for the next owners?

Because you're already eating the bulk of the depreciation on it anyway?

You pay for quality today because you intend to still be using and maintaining
it in 20 years.

Buying new makes no sense at all when "next owners" are even a factor in the
equation. You might as well just lease.

------
HillaryBriss
> _" They built those things to last, last a lifetime," Hustwit says. "And if
> they did break, they built them to be repaired very easily."_

You know. Kind of like a MacBook.

~~~
_emacsomancer_
I don't have much experience with MacBooks, but ThinkPads (at least certain
lines) are very much of this nature. I have a 2008 ThinkPad which is still
usable and in great condition (I've upgraded various things on it, which the
design also makes relatively easy).

~~~
notthemessiah
In the relative scheme of things, ThinkPads are easier to repair/upgrade than
other computers, but still colossally wasteful compared to desktops and many
non-computer devices. There's no way to take an old ThinkPad and add anything
to the motherboard without replacing it entirely. Today's devices have even
more forced-obsolescence, wtih DRM-locked BIOSes to stop upgrading components,
NVidia Tegra processors won't even let you upgrade the OS. With the ubiquity
of copyright enforcement, devices are increasingly forced to comply with
remote deletion of copyrighted works. OpenWRT may soon become illegal under
FCC rules.

~~~
_emacsomancer_
The T-series can have the CPU upgraded at least. I'm not convinced they're any
more wasteful than desktops, which will need upgraded motherboards after some
time.

Also, compared to non-computer electronic devices, I'd say ThinkPads fare
well. Microwaves don't last 10 years anymore, for example.

~~~
Lukas_Skywalker
I have long been looking for notebooks where the CPU can be upgraded. Do you
have any specific model/manufacturing year where this is possible?

~~~
_emacsomancer_
T430, W530 at least. See, [https://medium.com/@n4ru/the-
definitive-t430-modding-guide-3...](https://medium.com/@n4ru/the-
definitive-t430-modding-guide-3dff3f6a8e2e) , for instance.

