
Telegram: 200M Monthly Active Users - foxfired
https://telegram.org/blog/200-million
======
nikivi
Despite Telegram's shortcomings in not using well supported crypto and not
having default end to end encryption on all conversations. Their clients for
both iOS and mac are amazing in that they are native.

And unlike WhatsApp you don't need to carry your phone with you all the time
just to send a message to someone on desktop.

Their bot API is also really rich. I am thinking of rewriting some of the
Alfred workflows I wrote in Go as Telegram bots. For example I always wanted
my Web Searches workflow ([https://github.com/nikitavoloboev/alfred-web-
searches](https://github.com/nikitavoloboev/alfred-web-searches)) be present
on my phone in some way. It seems I can actually do just that and reuse the Go
code I wrote already.

~~~
cocktailpeanuts
Here you go
[https://www.whatsapp.com/download/](https://www.whatsapp.com/download/)

Also, Telegram has private keys stored on their server, and recently the
Russian government demanded they hand over the key otherwise they will be
banned from Russia. This can only happen because the key is on their server. I
think that's a big deal.

~~~
nikivi
WhatsApp mac app is Electron wrapper over web chat. And it still requires your
phone to be present and on battery to chat.

~~~
unicornporn
> And it still requires your phone to be present and on battery to chat.

That's a cheap price to pay for E2EE only.

~~~
Tecuane
Wire[1], another E2EE chat application (using libsignal, just like WhatsApp
and Signal itself), does not require this. It also has open-sourced its client
and server applications[2], and is in the process of documenting how to run
them yourself.

It also has a pretty solid API[3].

One downside for JS haters, though, is that while the application isn't a
wrapper for the site it is still Electron.

1\. [https://wire.com/en/security/](https://wire.com/en/security/) 2\.
[https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server](https://github.com/wireapp/wire-
server) 3\. [https://developer.wire.com](https://developer.wire.com)

~~~
unicornporn
I'd recommend [https://about.riot.im/](https://about.riot.im/)

Solid crypto (Megolm)[1], open source, federated.

[1]
[https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html](https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html)

~~~
Tecuane
In Matrix, E2EE isn't enabled by default[1], and the option to enable it is in
fact marked with a warning that it comes with potentially unwanted side-
effects. This isn't the same, and the arguments that call recommending
Telegram for E2EE encryption disingenuous apply to Matrix/Riot recommendations
too.

One other issue I have with Matrix is the fact that they're in the process of
completely rewriting their reference implementation in Go despite the fact
that - as far as I remember - the first one, in Python, isn't entirely
complete[2]. Combined with the app-bridge song and dance[3] there's too much
in flux for me to recommend in good conscience.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly (speaking as a "regular" user - the type
needed to achieve mass adoption), the client is horrendous. This is especially
apparent when compared with Wire, but I'd go as far as saying it's apparent
even when compared with some IRC clients. At least Signal's UI/UX is passable.
Encryption didn't catapult Telegram to 200 million monthly users. A slick UI,
a half-decent UX, and some good marketing did.

1\. Your link -
[https://about.riot.im/security/](https://about.riot.im/security/)

2\. [https://github.com/matrix-
org/synapse#introduction](https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse#introduction)

3\. [https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-
bridge](https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-bridge)

~~~
Arathorn
1) So it’s true that Matrix is still in beta and E2E is not yet on by default
on private rooms (but we’re working on it).

2) Synapse (python impl) is however “complete” (for implementing the Matrix
0.3 spec at least, and newer stuff) and has been for several years. We should
spell this out better in the README.

The reason for Dendrite (go impl) is to escape the python GIL and switch to a
multidb/multiwriter architecture to keep up with the load on massive HSes like
matrix.org’s.

3\. I have no idea what the “app-bridge” song and dance is that you’re
complaining about: bridges are one of the most powerful and fun bits of
Matrix. Perhaps you don’t like the config used to provision them? I’m not sure
how this impacts normal users.

4\. You may need to give more info on why you feel Riot is “horrendous” so we
can fix specifics :)

~~~
c0wb0yc0d3r
I'm not the poster you replied to, but my current complaint is that message
deletion is rather slow.

------
archagon
Political thoughts aside, I have to say that I'm extremely impressed with
Telegram's macOS client, especially after Slack. It's very elegant and iOS-y
without skimping on the power-user features expected from Mac apps. What a
breath of fresh air!

(I'm assuming TGUIKit is responsible:
[https://github.com/overtake/TelegramSwift/tree/master/TGUIKi...](https://github.com/overtake/TelegramSwift/tree/master/TGUIKit))

------
unicornporn
And soon mother Russia might have access to almost everyones conversations.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/telegram-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/telegram-
loses-bid-to-stop-russia-from-getting-encryption-keys)

If that is not already the case...

~~~
hnarn
"To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram
uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data
centers around the globe that are controlled by different legal entities
spread across different jurisdictions. The relevant decryption keys are split
into parts and are never kept in the same place as the data they protect. As a
result, several court orders from different jurisdictions are required to
force us to give up any data.

Thanks to this structure, we can ensure that no single government or block of
like-minded countries can intrude on people's privacy and freedom of
expression. Telegram can be forced to give up data only if an issue is grave
and universal enough to pass the scrutiny of several different legal systems
around the world.

To this day, we have disclosed 0 bytes of user data to third parties,
including governments."

[https://telegram.org/faq](https://telegram.org/faq)

~~~
akvadrako
If telegram continues to have a legal presence in Russia and/or not be
blocked, they will have to do what the Russian authorities say.

~~~
rkoten
Looks like they are willing to let Russian authorities block the app.

[https://twitter.com/durov/status/976083990938517509](https://twitter.com/durov/status/976083990938517509)

------
jorvi
For everyone saying Telegram/Durov will just get leaned on by Russia:

1\. Durov got ousted out of his own company (VK, basically Facebook in Russia)
by Putin. He then decided to live in exile in Germany

2\. Telegram is incorporated in Germany (which has some of the toughest
privacy laws in the world), not Russia

3\. Their keys are segmented and hosted in different jurisdictions, that are
picked to be likely antithetical to each other. This means an adversary has to
go through multiple legal systems, and power blocs (China, EU, N. America)
can’t just use their regional sway to force key collection.

If there is one thing you can dislike Telegram for, its that they rolled
MTProto instead of something more default. But in terms of personel, legal and
UI/UX, they’re golden.

~~~
jhasse
> 2\. Telegram is incorporated in Germany (which has some of the toughest
> privacy laws in the world), not Russia

They moved to Dubai:
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/cryptic-r...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/cryptic-
russian-crusader-says-his-5-billion-app-can-t-be-bought)

~~~
jorvi
Huh, TIL. That's quite a bummer considering UAE banned BlackBerries and
FaceTime due to encryption.

------
gpm
For some reason they felt the need to spam my phone and computer with a
notification about this.

~~~
fwdpropaganda
What do you mean, "spam"? I got this (and I was happy to) because I'm
subscribed to their official channels. If you don't want to receive it, maybe
you should unsubscribe to their channels. Or do you mean something else?

~~~
ReverseCold
It came from the service notifications channel, aka the same one that you get
login tokens from.

It's one message though, I personally don't mind.

~~~
fwdpropaganda
Could you share a screenshot please?

I'm very surprised by this. To me the bot that sends me the login tokens does
only that. I received this because I subscribed to an official channel named
Telegram News where they share this.

If they're sending news thru the login bot to people who aren't subscribed to
news, that's not nice behaviour of them in my view.

~~~
gpm
[https://imgur.com/a/gXlIe](https://imgur.com/a/gXlIe)

------
unicornporn
Time to go Riot! [https://riot.im](https://riot.im)

Solid E2E crypto (Megolm)[1], open source, federated, clients for most
platforms, Android client on F-Droid.

[1]
[https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html](https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html)

~~~
aquadrop
And an awful name for general purpose chat app...

~~~
che_shirecat
Discord seems to be doing just fine. Nobody really gives a shit about product
names.

~~~
aquadrop
Nobody gives a shit unless it's a bad name

------
stjohnswarts
I don't know why people don't use signal more. It's a much better thought out
tool.

~~~
izacus
Because it has a significantly worse user experience.

~~~
tyfon
In what way?

I've been using signal for a while and I have successfully converted all my
family and friends to using it. That includes a 70+ year old mother and
father.

There have been no issues in using it's function from sending messages to
video chat and everything in between.

~~~
konart
Does it has channel or something similar? If yes what are the popular ones?

One of the reasons people use Telegran (aside from chats\groups\bots) - is
channel, for many people this is new RSS.

------
pmlnr
I like Telegram and I find it one of the best messengers ever. They have true
native applications, a library, there's even a decent libpurple plugin.

However, I couldn't get people to use it. It's constantly under political
pressure because big bad encryption and Bad People are using it, despite the
fact that lot of other messengers offer the same (including basically anything
with OTR plugins, say, ICQ via Pidgin).

Telegram could and should be great, but the pressure needs to go away from it.
I really wonder why Whatsapp, with it's encrypted-by-default approach is not
under this level of attack. It's good I'm not into conspiracy theories.

Anyway, in the end, I ended up using it with my wife and nobody else. This
made me realise I could just set up an XMPP server (Prosody in this case) next
to my already existing mail server and use that with her. At least I have
complete control over that.

~~~
yAnonymous
Every app that has data security as one of its main selling points should be
based in the EU. The EU is responsible for a lot of crap, but at this point
they're the biggest government institution in the world that still takes
protection of user data seriously.

Basing their company in Russia, they knew exactly that the government would
come for the data eventually.

~~~
jhasse
The company was never based in Russia. It was based in Berlin and now the
headquarters are in Dubai: [https://theoutline.com/post/2348/what-isn-t-
telegram-saying-...](https://theoutline.com/post/2348/what-isn-t-telegram-
saying-about-its-connections-to-the-kremlin?zd=1&zi=gop4kgki)

------
andrewfelix
Why is Telegram getting so much better traction over open source alternatives
such as Wire?

~~~
gpm
Because it works better.

I tried Wire first, I really wanted to like it. It lost messages. It got it's
crypto state horribly confused and couldn't read messages from one of my
contacts. It maxes out at some annoyingly low number of "devices" \- which
includes things like different browsers, different OSes, private browsing
windows opened on someone elses computer, etc. And it generally felt like a
poorly built UI.

~~~
codedokode
It does not even have login and password so you cannot log in without using a
phone. I don't understand how is that better than Skype. Skype doesn't require
you to have a phone number.

~~~
gpm
Oddly if you make your account not via a phone - then it does have a login and
password. Which is just plain confusing.

------
betimsl
Congratulations.

I as one of those 200M users ask you kindly to _please_ add Kosova (+383)
since entry codes +386, +377 and +381 will be disabled by the august of this
year.

------
lasgsf
Love telegram. Simple easy to use.

------
horsecaptin
How is this affected by Telegram losing the keys to the Russian government?

~~~
Yetanfou
It remains to be seen whether they'll hand over those keys, as of yet this is
not the case as far as known. The consequence of not handing over the keys
would be for Telegram to be banned in Russia so I assume the opposite to be
true as well: if Telegram is not banned in Russia in about a week from now
they will have complied with the FSB's directives. If that happens I'll be
looking for an alternative, preferably something self-hosted. A self-hosted
Telegram server would be the best solution here as it would make it possible
to keep the best parts of Telegram - the client applications - and replace the
somewhat dodgy bits - the centralised server. Add federation between servers
and the end result would be more or less the same, the difference being that
it would be possible to keep your data private.

So Pavel, if you're reading this, how 'bout it? Add an option for a private
server for those who'd like to use Telegram in places where the powers that be
are pulling tricks like in Russia. In that context it would be interesting to
know how Telegram can survive in Iran, does the government there have access
to anything they shouldn't?

~~~
konart
>if Telegram is not banned in Russia in about a week from now they will have
complied with the FSB's directives.

Russian here.

FSB is bluffing yet again, just like they were bluffing with youtube block.
Too many people use it, too many politicans use it and even troll army based
in Olgino use it.

They won't ban it.

------
zoinkss
Why is Telagram better than Signal?

~~~
static_noise
WhatsApp is even better than Telegram.

~~~
soziawa
But it shares all the metadata with Facebook which sucks. Threema and Signal
are better in that respect and you loose almost no features.

~~~
huhtenberg
It shares your full _contacts_ with Facebook.

This doesn't just "suck", it's completely unacceptable.

~~~
soziawa
While bad I think it's worse that the location available through your IP is
available to facebook. Further they can guess with which contacts you work
with, are good or not so good friends with. And it will be kept forever at
Facebook and at companies like Cambridge Analytica.

------
Canada
I wish Telegram would just adopt the double ratchet and make everything E2E by
default. I don't see what they would have to lose by doing so.

Their secret chats are so annoying. No multi device support. And the cleartext
everything by default. Blah.

------
Molaxx
It's really weird that an app so lacking in security has a reputation for good
security and privacy. In Israel there's a huge phenomena where the illegal
weed trade went telegram (they call it telegrass) people actually have to give
their identity (photo of themselves holding their ID) to potential dealers so
the can buy some weed. Somehow people think it's reasonable to pass this sort
of information because telegram is secured and encrypted.

------
pmcpinto
I'm wondering how the ICO craze impacted Telegram MAU. Most of the ICOs focus
their community management efforts on Telegram, and a lot of them have a huge
number of members, more than 50k in some situations

------
noname120
Anyone knows what they mean with “active users”? If I open the app once per
month but never send / receive any message, am I an active user?

~~~
rexfuzzle
First line of the article: In the last 30 days 200m users sent a message

------
amirathi
No ads, no investors, no shareholders. What pays the bills then? How does the
future looks like?

~~~
opencl
Pavel Durov made hundreds of millions of dollars from VK and has mostly been
funding it himself so far. But there was an ICO last month that raised ~$850
million.

------
codedokode
Telegram is awful. First, it doesn't have logins and passwords so you cannot
even log in without having a phone nearby. Second, it collects and uploads all
of your contacts to Durov's servers. Third, all the messages are stored on the
servers too so Durov can read them at his spare time.

~~~
jhasse
> First, it doesn't have logins and passwords so you cannot even log in
> without having a phone nearby.

You can set-up a password. Also you can login with a Telegram device nearby,
e.g. a tablet or laptop. No phone required.

> Second, it collects and uploads all of your contacts to Durov's servers.

No, you can deny access or don't use the app from your phone. Contacts can be
added by username, too.

> Third, all the messages are stored on the servers too so Durov can read them
> at his spare time.

No, the so-called secret chats are end-to-end encrypted and not stored on
their servers.

~~~
ryanlol
>No, the so-called secret chats are end-to-end encrypted and not stored on
their servers.

This feels dishonest to me. Nobody _ever_ uses the secret chats because
Telegram devs have deliberately made them impossible to use.

~~~
notsrg
What do you mean "deliberately [...] impossible to use"? Select a contact and
choose "Start secret chat", wait for the keys to exchange and then the entire
experience is identical to unencrypted chats.

~~~
ryanlol
Come on, you know very well that most clients don't support this.

And yeah, having to click "Start secret chat" is deliberately making things
difficult. Signal or Whatsapp don't require that.

~~~
jhasse
> Come on, you know very well that most clients don't support this.

supported:

    
    
        Telegram for Android
        Telegram for iPhone and iPad
        Telegram for WP
        Telegram for macOS
    

not supported:

    
    
        Telegram for Windows/Mac/Linux
        Telegram for Firefox OS
        Telegram Web-version
        Telegram Chrome app
    

I guess we have a different definition for "most".

------
senthilnayagam
you know every ICO must have a telegram group besides, GitHub and whitepaper.

assuming 5 million of the 200 million are there for the ICO's :)

------
dcu
simple, fast, secure, reliable. definitely the best messaging service right
now.

