
Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots - bvrlt
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/us/baltimore-riots.html
======
rayiner
My wife and I live in Baltimore, in Mt. Vernon. We were having dinner the
other night in Bolton Hill (a quiet residential area), and four guys ran by
the restaurant and tried to throw a chair through the window (chairs turned
out to be heavier than they thought). People vandalized the Rite-Aid a few
blocks from our apartment, and set fire to a building we could see out our
window.

Being from Bangladesh I'm not worried (what's happening in Baltimore happens
in Dhaka every other month). But it's a reminder of how fragile the social
order is and how close we always are to its collapse.

~~~
madez
Why do many countries with cold climate didn't have these issues while many
countries with hot climate tend to do?

Why do countries which didn't have unsafe streets now do after immigration?

~~~
cafard
Probably because there aren't enough people in Greenland to get a good riot
going. Shakespeare wrote about riots in England--some of them, to be sure,
targeted against Germans. Scotland has had its riots, Berlin has had some. I
could mention the Boston Tea Party, but let's face it, those Yankees were
immigrants.

~~~
mc32
The Yankees were colonizers more than immigrants --England had dominion over
the territory and people came over to colonize as English subjects. In other
words they were 'domestic' immigrants as opposed to alien (Swiss, Spanish,
etc.) immigrants.

------
danso
FWIW, David Simon's response:
[http://davidsimon.com/baltimore/](http://davidsimon.com/baltimore/)

> Yes, there is a lot to be argued, debated, addressed. And this moment, as
> inevitable as it has sometimes seemed, can still, in the end, prove
> transformational, if not redemptive for our city. Changes are necessary and
> voices need to be heard. All of that is true and all of that is still
> possible, despite what is now loose in the streets.

> But now — in this moment — the anger and the selfishness and the brutality
> of those claiming the right to violence in Freddie Gray’s name needs to
> cease. There was real power and potential in the peaceful protests that
> spoke in Mr. Gray’s name initially, and there was real unity at his
> homegoing today. But this, now, in the streets, is an affront to that man’s
> memory and a dimunition of the absolute moral lesson that underlies his
> unnecessary death.

> If you can’t seek redress and demand reform without a brick in your hand,
> you risk losing this moment for all of us in Baltimore. Turn around. Go
> home. Please.

~~~
maxerickson
His various replies to comments are also worth reading.

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akilism
This is what happens when you have an above the law police force that preys on
entire neighborhoods that feel like they have been cast aside.

~~~
th0waway
This is what happens when you have populations that think they are above the
law, and that prey on other citizens that aren't like them (FTFY)

~~~
akilism
you can't even stand behind your own comments.

~~~
mc32
He or she may not feel like exposing their identity but what they say is not
that far off. Most of the violence is not by the local people who will be
directly impacted by the violence in the neighborhoods. It's by people who
found a nice excuse to vent whatever frustration they have violently and
anonymously. These acts don't further justice -the same way mistreating
arrestees does not further justice. They coopt the frustration of the
community and corrupt it and moreover set the community back in terms of
forward development.

I think the problem is more your interpretation with what they are saying than
what the words they said. Also, who are the people above the law, the rioters,
the bad police, its not clear, but we know both contribute to destruction.

------
vinay427
"the police said some firefighters were reportedly having cinder blocks heaved
at them as they responded to emergencies."

That's pathetic.

~~~
Zigurd
Sometimes vandalism is faked, created in order to generate propaganda images:
[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/why-were-
police-...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/why-were-police-
cruisers-left-to-burn-at-g20-summit/article572789/)

~~~
ceejayoz
And sometimes it's deemed "sports fans taking to the streets".

[http://mic.com/articles/116680/11-stunning-images-
highlight-...](http://mic.com/articles/116680/11-stunning-images-highlight-
the-double-standard-of-reactions-to-riots-like-baltimore)

~~~
tectec
That list is misleading. One of the items is the Vancouver hockey riot in
2011. It was definitely called a riot at the time, and two years later they
were still prosecuting the offenders.
[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/vpd-
rec...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/vpd-
recommends-25-new-charges-over-vancouver-stanley-cup-riots/article13368218/)

~~~
ceejayoz
The list itself states ESPN called that one a riot.

Part of the double standard is that even when it gets called a riot, we don't
get the same hand-wringing about "where were the fathers", dog-whistle terms
like "urban thugs", etc.

------
Lancey
It's unfortunate that it had to come to this, but I believe the rioters were
justified in their actions. If the police departments in the United States do
not account for their actions, or worse, defend officers that have committed
acts that show an indiscriminate disregard for the well being of those they're
sworn to protect, they should be prepared to face violent resistance from the
people.

~~~
blueatlas
Justified burning down a brand new senior community center and knocking out a
cop with a brick to the head. Really?

~~~
Lancey
Were the police justified when they beat an unarmed suspect and denied him
medical attention that would have saved his life? Were they justified when
they refused to bring those responsible to justice?

~~~
engi_nerd
Ah, I see you are advocating a new system where injustices are answered with
further injustices.

~~~
Lancey
There is no system in place where this can end with justice. Every time that
justice has been called for in cases of police brutality against minorities
over the past year, only once was that justice served. Murderers are at large,
and richer for, injustices that were defended by the system. Those that are
supposed to deliver justice consider themselves all-powerful and above the
laws they should be upholding. Justice failed Michael Brown and all the others
that died at the hands of police officers on a power trip. When justice
doesn't work, what is there to turn to?

~~~
tzs
> Justice failed Michael Brown and all the others that died at the hands of
> police officers on a power trip.

How do you conclude that justice failed Michael Brown? The physical evidence
pretty overwhelmingly backs the officer's account of their encounter. See the
DoJ's report for a discussion of this.

If you want a face for people unjustifiably killed by police, why not someone
like Eric Garner, who was doing nothing wrong before or during his encounter
with the police and so whose killing was clearly unjustified?

------
fixxer
Another great opportunity for effective protest lost.

~~~
akilism
People have been protesting peacefully in Baltimore all last week with 0
answers from the police or elected officials. No media was talking about it,
there was no Freddie Gray thread on hackernews, but now the whole world is
talking about it.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Hm except for HN, which has 3 comments about Valve's decision to change their
mod rates, for every one about Baltimore.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Several reasons:

1\. This is a community primarily for technology posts. Occasionally news
makes it here but it has to be a pretty big story.

2\. Although this is a relatively big story it's a US centric story when HN is
a global community. Personally I've seen so many of these horrible police
brutality stories from the US in the last year that they've lost my attention.
I saw the Twitter hash tag a few days ago, saw it was a police brutality
thing, and didn't even bother looking further. It's almost become accepted
fact that police in the US are militarised, heavy handed, and criminal, and no
matter what the reaction there or around the world is nobody seems to have the
ability to (or want to) change things.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I see. Please note that characterization of the police is an exaggeration of
the media. Similarly, the USA consists of cowboys and Indians.

------
leesalminen
Did I see the Mayor of Baltimore at a press conference saying they "gave room
for people that wanted to destroy"?

~~~
runako
I think the context was in order to give space for nonviolent protest, they
created a space where some people would act in unproductive/violent ways.

My take was it was meant in a similar spirit as our free speech protections;
allowing wide berths for free speech leads to a lot of destructive speech.
Preventing nonviolent protests requires militarization a la Ferguson.

~~~
leesalminen
While I agree in sprit, I don't think that a quote like that should be spoken
at a press conference, chopped, twisted and hashed by the media and then
interpreted by already irrational protestors. It's encouraging violence and
destruction of others property.

~~~
runako
That's what we do in America. Look at how we chop, twist, and hash the
Constitution in public debate.

It really doesn't matter how well-crafted the statement; we'll misinterpret
because we're Americans and that's what we do.

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atwebb
So this just got dropped from the front page, any idea why? It was #4 then on
refresh it was gone.

~~~
Lawtonfogle
My understanding is that comments outnumbering votes reuslts in a heavy
penalty.

------
SFjulie1
Northen America cities are really not geometrically in favour of law
enforcement. L1 geometry + size of blocks gives an unfair advantage to the
rioters. Which means law enforcement have to resort to excessive violence to
squash demonstration, and the government to use excessive measures to protect
social peace (such as spying their own citizens).

Designing cities for cars and not the "humans beings" may have been a cost.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Aren't North American cities generally grid based? wouldn't this make it easy
for police to for lines, block off several streets, and contain rioters within
a block or two?

~~~
Lancey
See New York where protesters could easily avoid cops by creating multiple
incidents at once and dispersing in different directions when police
resistance arrives. It takes too long for an organized group to move through
the city and that can be used to spread police thin.

~~~
k-mcgrady
That's more a problem with the size of the cities that the layout though.

------
emodendroket
Well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that seemingly half the comments here
look like they could have been posted on Stormfront, but it's still
disappointing.

