
Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 - velodrome
http://dev.windows.com/en-us/featured/raspberrypi2support
======
danieldk
I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch
believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in
me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I
think it is a fine system for most people.

However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi:
providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves.
Although .NET is slowly opening up, Windows is closed as ever. So, it does not
actually let you check out how stuff works: looking up that function in the
Python standard library, seeing how it calls libc, and then diving into libc
to see how it is actually implemented.

It's in Microsoft interest to keep kids in their ecosystem, which has been
pretty much unproblematic in the nineties and before the smart phone
revolution. As the RPi becomes more popular in education, it would be bad for
them when kids see that there is something else that not only works well, but
also allows them to do more.

My fear is that teachers will now choose for Windows on the RPi, since that is
what they know. And we are back to where we started: a fundamentally
unhackable system.

Now, if Microsoft would open up the core of Windows. I would be impressed.
Now? Not so.

~~~
nmeofthestate
"Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a
device for children to tinker with and educate themselves"

"Windows is closed as ever"

Are these kids hacking on the Linux kernel or something? Of course not. They
will be using some app/language running on the OS. They don't need access to
the OS source to do that. Seems to me Windows is a perfectly open enough OS to
act as a platform for tinkering and learning about computers.

~~~
danieldk
_Are these kids hacking on the Linux kernel or something? Of course not. They
will be using some app /language running on the OS. They don't need access to
the OS source to do that. _

I _even_ mentioned libc. There is more to an operating system than a kernel.

In fact, this was an important part of my early computer education: when I was
12 (1994) I bought a copy of Slackware Linux because it had a free compiler
(even Turbo Pascal was expensive for a 12 year-old).

At the beginning I just typed some small C snippets that I could find in books
in the library. Then I started reading shell scripts and found out that a lot
of the system is controlled through shell scripts and started writing my own.
Then I started reading through the source code of libraries to find out how
things were implemented.

At some point I got a Minix book (I was probably 16) at a discount at a book
store. I started comparing the theory I read there and tried to find out how
e.g. the Linux VMM differed from Minix.

Don't underestimate how important it is for a kid to have access to such
information. Only a small subset dive deeply into the system, but they will be
the hackers of the future. But you have to awaken the interest by making easy
to dive in.

 _They will be using some app /language running on the OS. They don't need
access to the OS source to do that._

I think you underestimate how important access to the OS (in the widest sense)
has been to the success of everyone from Google, Dropbox, and Facebook to the
newest of startups.

~~~
bohol
I think you overestimate the need for access to the OS for learning things.
The cracking scene, demoscene and games industry was almost exclusively built
on Windows. A lot of that was just as, if not more, advanced as what a Linux
programmer does.

I do think the trend of iOS, Android and similar Windows environments is
troubling. But if they ship Windows 10 on the RPi with something like QBasic
and Visual Studio it's probably just as good a learning tool as Linux. Or even
a better one considering the rest of the application ecosystem.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
I don't think Win 10 is about teaching kids to code.

But then I don't think the Pi is really about teaching kids to code either.

The Pi Foundation has done a good job of persuading everyone otherwise, but
I'm left with a nagging suspicion that a computer designed for kids from the
ground up would look very different. It's just too damn complicated for most
kids. The nerds get it, but expecting the average ten year old to learn Linux
shell scripting or the fine points of Apache installation seems unrealistic to
me.

Win 10 on the Pi is about two things. The first is about edging Linux out of
the education market. Teachers will indeed prefer Win 10 to Linux, for reasons
that others have mentioned - especially if it comes with a basic dev
toolchain. Even if that toolchain is very easy to use.

The second is - I guess - selling Office 365 subscriptions on super-cheap
hardware, and creating a whole new sub-PC market for Windows and Office.

If I'm right, it's a clever move. It will give Windows and Office access to
many new markets worldwide.

Where MS hardware failed on price, the Pi version wins on price. It could be a
_very_ strong combination.

~~~
72deluxe
But is Linux about teaching kids to code? I don't think it is. I spent more
time on RH6.2 attempting to learn how the system worked and how the heck to
make my rubbish graphics card run X than running egcs or g++ back in the day.
There was terse documentation for all the GTK stuff, and it was particularly
daunting if you had not written any advanced C or C++ (like me). I did manage
to write some rubbish programs under Qt thanks to the excellent documentation
and through sheer perseverance under KDE2 but today installing Visual Studio
is incredibly easy.

I ran Linux for years and still use it today for my Pi only but I think the
INITIAL learning curve to use a system is less steep with Windows than Linux,
particularly if you are presented with a CLI Linux login. If you are presented
with a GUI then it may be different for a 6 year old but I wouldn't say that
the Linux vs Windows discussion really takes into account how easy it is to
get into programming on the platforms.

(I know you can install gcc and get writing C/C++ really quickly but you can
do the same with Visual Studio without understanding a package management
system).

~~~
zxcvcxz
It sounds like you were running Linux on hardware that wasn't Ubuntu
certified.

This is like complaining about how hard it is to get OS X up and running when
installing on a Dell, but I see where you're coming from and realize this
wasn't you whole point.

Anywho.. I would say it's easier to take skills learned from using Linux and
apply them to the Windows OS than the other way around.

~~~
72deluxe
Yep, it wasn't Ubuntu certified because it was the year 2000 and Ubuntu and
Mark Shuttleworth weren't around yet. My old 486 had a rubbish VESA compliant
card in it that was a pain to get XConfigurator to use.

Admittedly, I did learn many skills with the command line but this DIDN'T
translate to me being a wizard with the DOS prompt on Windows 98 back then - I
didn't use the DOS prompt. Task manager didn't show a hierarchy of processes
like pstree does now, and pstree didn't come (or even exist?) with RedHat 5.0
or 6.0. This was RedHat, not RHEL.

I got OSX up and running on my Acer Aspire :-)

You're right though, that was difficult.

I think the skills for the different OSes are only mainly applicable to their
OS, despite how we think and how easily you and I can use the different
platforms.

Using a keyboard and a mouse translates, but nothing else does really. Getting
my wife to use OSX is frustrating for her, my brother gets angry using OSX
too, my brother is lost under Linux, my mum gets lost under Windows (she's
fine with iOS mostly now) and my dad is fine with Windows 7 and before but
hates Windows 8. My wife gets lost under Android after using iOS for years.

Don't even think about programming for any of them on any of the platforms!

~~~
the_ancient
I always love guys like you... I tried something 15 years ago so I know
everything about the current project because nothing ever changes...

Jesus, Linux Circa 2000 is very very very different from linux 2015...

~~~
72deluxe
I'm not Jesus. You got my name wrong. I get the feeling in reality that you
DON'T love "guys like me". You manage to judge a lot about me from two
comments!

Seriously though, I use Linux every other day and my last job involved
maintaining racks and racks of Linux servers. I also use a few Raspberry Pi s
at home, and I appreciate that things change. The ditching of the normal
windowing paradigm is the biggest recent change that made me use Linux less as
a desktop OS. I didn't say that things don't change - where did you read that?

But it still stands that giving my mum a Raspberry Pi and an SD card, and
she'll be none the wiser about runlevels, CLI, or the main point of the
discussion, programming. She'll instead spend more time learning how to use
Linux, surely?

Or are you saying that my mum will suddenly be able to start development or
something?

Or are you just offended that I had some experiences in the past or something?

------
benn_88
Note: Windows 10 on Pi 2 will be an IoT platform, not a desktop OS.

You'll develop your app in Visual Studio on a Windows PC and deploy it to the
Pi.

Raspbian will continue to be the main supported OS.

\- Ben from Raspberry Pi

~~~
xyby
> IoT

What is that? "Internet of Things"? "Installs on Tablets"?

~~~
ashleyw
Internet of Things: [https://dev.windows.com/featured/Windows-Developer-
Program-f...](https://dev.windows.com/featured/Windows-Developer-Program-for-
IoT)

------
ap0
There's nothing wrong with learning to first code on Windows. If it is easy
for a kid to get going and start making stuff, they have a much better chance
of sticking with it long enough to actually be interested in it as a hobby or
career. My first programming experience was VB6 on Windows 98. I went from
there to C in Visual C++. Fast forward to today and I write Java on OSX that
is deployed to Linux machines. Most of this stuff is pretty transferable.
Starting on Windows by no means stops you from exploring Linux later.

CS fundamentals can be taught on any system. Most kids don't have really
technical people in their lives to get them past some of the hurdles of even
getting started. I think we sometimes forget that the whole world doesn't want
to be Linux gurus -- they want to be able to watch their cat videos and check
their Facebook accounts. Most people don't care about the technical parts. If
we can try to make the more technical parts accessible to a wider audience, I
think that's moving the needle in the right direction.

~~~
slantyyz
>> CS fundamentals can be taught on any system

This.

I don't know why a lot of people just assume that having Windows means you'll
learn using Microsoft's development tools. Nothing's preventing you from
choosing Apache over IIS, or Postgresql/MySQL over SQL Server Express.

Most major web app development platforms run on Windows, and there are plenty
of good, free text editors too.

~~~
dkuntz2
Because professors are teaching those tools, which means students are more
comfortable with them / know what they are.

This isn't CS fundamentals, but, at least for a good portion of CS 1 classes
taught at my school, and all of the CS 2 and data structures, Visual Studio is
what people are taught, with the OS X users typically using XCode.

I don't know if it's better to start with IDEs or just basic text editors and
compilers, but I know a lot of CS majors are going to be coming out of my
school without knowing how to compile and run almost any program without
clicking on the green run button in their IDE.

------
cliffbean
While most people don't hack kernel code themselves, there is still value in
promoting open source operating systems. A future in which Windows becomes
popular on mobile/embedded devices is likely a future with more binary blobs,
more OS-locked hardware, and fewer opportunities for those people who do want
to hack on kernel code.

~~~
morganvachon
> A future in which Windows becomes popular on mobile/embedded devices is
> likely a future with more binary blobs, more OS-locked hardware, and fewer
> opportunities for those people who do want to hack on kernel code.

I just can't agree with that. F/OSS fan that I am, I still think the same
opportunities will exist whether Windows runs on a particular piece of
hardware or not. After all, GNU/Linux and BSD have flourished despite Windows
running on the same hardware for the past 30 years. How is this any different?
I see it as opening up new channels for learning, not closing them off.

To look at it another way, this is similar to Microsoft being late to the
party on modern smartphones. The existence of Windows Phone 7 and 8 has done
absolutely nothing to slow down the explosion of popularity in Android and iOS
phones.

I don't foresee a huge percentage of Raspberry Pi owners jumping ship to
Windows 10; maybe dabbling with it but that's it. As far as we know, GNU/Linux
will continue to offer a superior learning experience.

~~~
higherpurpose
FreeBSD has "flourished"? I seem to remember only two years ago before
Christmas they were begging for donations or they will close shop.

Linux and FreeBSD/OpenBSD certainly hasn't "flourished" on users' PCs either,
which is the above commenter's point.

~~~
morganvachon
I didn't see anything in the parent's comment about GNU/Linux or FreeBSD on
desktop PCs, nor was I talking about it on desktop PCs. The Raspberry Pi has
always been meant as a learning device, a maker's toolkit, a base for building
something other than a boring desktop PC. The fact that it now has the power
to be a desktop PC doesn't mean that's all it will ever be.

One definition (the one I was using) of "flourish" is "to develop rapidly and
successfully". I stand by that description; GNU/Linux and the BSDs have seen
steady improvement and rapid development surges over the past few decades. If
you're claiming otherwise, I'd say look at the server statistics across the
Internet. Look at mobile phone operating systems. Look anywhere but the
desktop, and you'll see Free and Open Source solutions far outstripping any
offering from Microsoft.

I say, welcome to the party Microsoft. Again, one more channel for learning
should be welcomed, not shunned because of old prejudices.

~~~
catern
What? These are not "old prejudices", Windows is still proprietary software
and that's still harmful to user freedom. This is not just "one more channel
for learning", it's a dying proprietary platform trying to piggyback on the
success of a popular open-source platform.

~~~
morganvachon
Given that Microsoft is steadily becoming more open-source friendly and I'm
seeing them being ridiculed for it across the web, I'd say a lot of old
prejudice is at play.

Besides, Google's version of Android is also proprietary software that is not
only harmful to user freedom, it's also more and more privacy hostile every
day. Yet Google is still held as the pinnacle of open source friendly
companies in some circles. Old prejudices, again.

~~~
cliffbean
I distinguish between proprietary apps and proprietary kernel. The open source
world can build its own apps. Mostly. However, it can't build its own kernel
if the hardware is undocumented and/or only supported by OS-specific binary
blobs. Drivers are key to a lot of things.

MS is a lot more open-source friendly, and smarter, but it's pretty clear that
this is a strategy to get more people tied into ecosystems which favor
proprietary Windows. MS is behind, so they're playing catch-up.

~~~
morganvachon
I don't disagree, and I'll add that the Raspberry Pi is still encumbered by a
binary blob that is required to boot, no matter the actual OS that is loaded
after. I for one would absolutely love to see a 100% fully documented, Free
and Open Source development board, from the board layout, to the CPU/GPU
design, the boot code, and all kernel and userland software.

Unfortunately there is no real market interest for such a device, so I'll take
what I can get.

------
hfaran
Out of all of the exciting news coming from Redmond this past year, this has
somehow taken the cake for me. In 2013, even suggesting Windows on Raspberry
Pi could be a possibility would've gotten you laughed out of the room, and for
it now to be actually happening made me take more than a few double-takes.

~~~
anom9999
It's not that surprising news. NT has supported ARM for a few years now and
the Raspberry Pi 2 is a pretty beefy board - all things considered.

~~~
joosters
Actually Microsoft seemed to be backing away from ARM support. They have
abandoned Windows 10 for existing Windows RT devices, for instance.

~~~
egil
That is probably because Surface RT has pretty much been rejected by the
market. There is no business in beating a dead horse.

------
jbandela1
I think this is awesome. For all the people that are complaining about not
being open source and not friendly to hackers, the truth is probably most
people that program Raspberry are not even using a native compiled language
but are using Python. The people that want to hack on a kernel, can install
Linux.

I am really excited about the prospect of Microsoft enabling writing and
debugging for the Pi using Visual Studio. They already have the feature for
android in the Visual Studio 2015 Preview[1] and making it work for Raspberry
Pi on running Windows should be easy. With an excellent development
environment and debugger, I think interest in C/C++ programming for the Pi
will be increased as it will be more accessible.

[1]
[http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/12/05/developing...](http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/12/05/developing-
native-activity-applications-for-the-android-platform.aspx)

------
VLM
I wonder what the redistribution license will look like. Most stuff I've used
a pi for have been "copy image to flash card, install flash card, boot and
run" not running apt-get or make install type commands from the console. (I'm
installing an octoprint box this week, sometime, bye bye repetier-host)
Historically microsoft has been a little displeased with people redistributing
their software.

Another issue little discussed is the intense PR campaign that it's only
useful for education despite it being a pretty good generic appliance. I've
never used one for education and have zero contact with that small subculture.
Most pi users are using it as a low power small solid state replacement for
"pull that old used desktop and slap linux on it" I wonder how the PR campaign
that its an educational device will be enforced at the OS level, perhaps a
watchdog timer will reboot it every hour or it'll be DRMed to heck and back
requiring signatures for all executable software or who knows what could be
implemented to ruin it for hobbyists without significantly impacting the edu
market.

~~~
patja
When you read the terms of the program, you only get one single copy of
prerelease software, and the license is only good for 60 days.

------
spdustin
I think there's too much arguing for things that kids don't give a shit about.
The argument can't be, "think about the children!"

The argument must be, "preserve the children's rights to think for
themselves." It is on us as adults - parents, teachers, trusted elders,
whatever - to instill in the kids the information needed to make decisions,
and the fundamental skills to objectively utilize that information in a
rational decision making process. In my humble opinion - reflected in my own
choices as a parent - that means Linux (a term I use in its colloquial form,
please do not nit pick on that word) on the Pi. My kids see Windows at school
and at friends' homes, OS X and iOS at home, and as of today I'm taking my RPi
off duty and showing it to my kids. It's a snow day, they're a captive
audience!

It isn't about a six year old compiling a new kernel or a teen getting a
Minecraft server to run a mod, it's about creating a spirit of curiosity and
experimentation.

~~~
zanny
And nothing kills curiosity more than NT system calls that are undebuggable
and the bureaucracy around setting up a .net development environment or even
worse trying to use any other language on Windows than the .net stuff.

~~~
spdustin
And how, exactly, will a child be faced with debugging NT internals while
making a game in Scratch?

The educators that want to foster an interest in _computing_ will do so in a
way that's least burdensome to a child's limited attention span and desire for
instant gratification. Those that want to foster an interest in writing
software simply won't put Windows on the thing unless they're teaching it.

------
rcarmo
Nicely played. I'm a bit surprised at the amount of people in this thread
equating Windows 10 for RPi with a desktop environment, though -- I'd be
_very_ surprised if it had a desktop environment at all, considering that
they're targeting it as an embedded system.

You _might_ have graphics, but not a DE.

Edited to add: based on this video,
[http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/2-511](http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/2-511),
this will probably be considered as a "micro" system without any UI.

~~~
cypher543
Which makes sense, considering this is part of their IoT program. Microsoft
isn't porting Windows 10 to the Raspberry Pi so that kids can use it. They're
doing it for developers who want something cheaper and more powerful than an
Intel Edison.

------
beagle3
I would love to here the inside story here.

Based on my experience with Win7 and Win8, I expect that Win10 would have
crawled (or not at all worked) with the slower CPU and smaller memory.

My guess would be that the Raspberry Pi 2 is, in fact, a Microsoft initiative
rather than an RPi Foundation initiative - and that Microsoft have actually
contributed significant funds to make this possible. Either way, that is good
for the community - I don't have a problem with Microsoft financing my stuff
as long as it does not come with any strings attached (which, I trust the RPi
foundation to have insisted on).

Pure speculation, of course - but I'm sure we'll hear a lot more about this
deal.

~~~
listic
That makes sense. After all, they were not going to release an RPi 2 until
2017, and now - suddenly - they have a new version with Windows ( _version_ )
support from the get go!
[http://www.extremetech.com/computing/186263-raspberry-
pi-2-t...](http://www.extremetech.com/computing/186263-raspberry-
pi-2-targeted-for-2017-current-model-gets-upgrade)

~~~
nwp90
Seems more likely Broadcom have been helpful than MS from what the RPi folk
have said. I'd guess that they weren't originally expecting it to be feasible
to get what appears to be a custom SoC made.

Note that when the B+ board was designed, they already knew the pinout of the
new chip and were leaving space for it.

------
tegeek
I personally want a trimmed down version of .NET (perhaps the new Core CLR
which is just 10 MB) so I can run F#.

Mono is too heavy and have millions other dependencies I dont want to grab.

Running a modern & practical functional language on RB Pi will be extremely
joyful for me.

~~~
FlyingSnake
Does .Net micro framework fit the bill?

[http://www.netmf.com/](http://www.netmf.com/)

~~~
josteink
Last I checked, Micro is too small and lacks crucial things you want for
everyday development, and that is for a normal developer, not a language
runtime-designer.

It was targeted mostly towards very low-specced hardware, closer to a Arduino
than a Pi.

I'm guessing things like F# relies on too much things which are not included
here.

------
patja
The devil is in the details of the licensing terms. Just like the "Windows 10
upgrades done in the first year will be free for the supported lifetime of
your device" leaves a lot of wiggle room around who gets to decide what
constitutes the lifetime of a device (you can be sure if you upgrade more than
a few components you will get thrown out of the land of "free"), the terms of
this program are not necessarily what you might expect from the PR: you get to
install one single license and it is only good for 60 days!

------
fnordfnordfnord
I want this to be a good thing. I probably still have some Ballmer-induced
"PTSD", so I approach these things with extra skepticism (even though I like
the recent changes seen at MS). More choices often means a better ecosystem.
More kids hacking is a good thing.

One problem that I see is that Broadcomm and peripheral makers will continue
to release binary-only blobs/drivers, and the MSVS based toolchain could start
to be the only way to do some of the really cool things. ie a few "killer"
apps will done up and those will only be accessible on the Win/MSVS (free-as-
in-bait) platform. Linux will again be relegated to the kind of blind-reverse-
engineering, playing catchup, and being a second place late finisher; which we
have all seen, and continue to see today.

Another is that educators at the lower level will take the
"easy/safe/familiar" route and teach Windows exclusively, as is the case today
even into college.

------
danbruc
Okay, come on! Who are you? And what did you do to Microsoft?

------
castell
Next step, Microsoft announces FX!32 for Win10 ARM.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX!32](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX!32)

FX!32 is a software emulator program that allows Win32 programs built for the
Intel x86 instruction set to execute on DEC Alpha-based systems running
Windows NT.

~~~
trentnelson
Hey, I could put Windows 10 on my DEC^WHP^WCompaq ES40!

------
20kleagues
IoT devices running Windows 10. So I guess my coffee machine will also have
the blue screen of death (BSOD) now.

Jokes aside, strategic move by Microsoft. The new CEO has some interesting
stuff in mind indeed. Can't wait for the build conference where they open the
HoloLens dev tools.

~~~
tkmcc
That's not a joke: quite a few coffee machines around the Microsoft campus run
embedded Windows, including one in the recruiting building's reception lounge.

~~~
riskable
Have these windows coffee machines ever produced the bad coffee of death
though?

------
comboy
OK, Microsoft somehow got its sh*t together. I've been seeing them on local
programming conferences (in Poland!), they started caring about open source,
this company may still have a bright future.

------
orbitingpluto
I have been using the Windows 10 preview to play around with Powershell 5. Up
until the 9926 build it was a big improvement.

The 9926 build is the first I've noticed that the started Windows 7 "Search
Program and Files" has been replaced with "Search the computer and web".
Apparently you can't turn it off. I could not find a group policy or regedit
tweak to turn it off. A Microsoft support article said you cannot, period.
Everything you do is a search. This default behaviour, even in Ubuntu, was
what helped me switch distros.

The problem with this default behaviour is that it won't fly in corporate and
government environments. Any place that does a security audit will have to
redo a security audit every single time a new system is placed onto their
network.

Microsoft seems to be moving towards the trend of easy use rather than
productivity.

Trying to make a child's first impression of computing being tied to Windows
makes sense. But aren't there going to be issues with blatantly monitoring
kids like this?

~~~
mark-r
Argh! It's bad enough that the Help systems do this. If I'm going to Help, I
want help the program I installed on my computer and I want it fast - don't
search the entire internet for something that should be instantly available
already. I really hate to see this philosophy extending to everything. I
already know how to use Google to search the web.

~~~
nwp90
I noticed libreoffice doing this yesterday. Very disappointing.

------
cm2187
I hope it will support the .net framework. That would make it really
accessible to unsophisticated hobbyists like me! There are very few things one
can't do with a USB port!

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
Mono runs on existing raspis right now. So this looks very possible.

------
teh
It's nice to see Microsoft cares. OTOH part of the attraction of the RPi for
me is that people freely share their knowledge, code and cool hacks.

Adding a humongous blob of unmodifiable software doesn't really align with any
of that. In the best case people will shun this, in the worst case it could
harm the culture.

~~~
andyjohnson0
I'm fairly sure that most RPi users neither modify the OS that their device is
running or even look at the source code. The community-led innovation mainly
happens higher up the stack, and in the hardware add-on space, and I don't see
how Windows on RPi would change that. Windows on RPi is unlikely to ever be
mainstream, so anyone using Windows-specific features on software would have
to accept that their code would be interesting to only a small minority of
other RPi users.

Meta: Why all the anti-MS cynicism on the threads for this topic? Isn't it
kind of old now?

(Edit: Added "...unlikely to ever be mainstream...")

~~~
GauntletWizard
Because Embrace, Extend, Extinguish is older than dirt. Microsoft had a long
habit of adopting public standards, adding proprietary extensions, and then
smothering the standard by making their extensions intentionally obtuse and
hard to interoperate with. I don't honestly see how they could do such with
the Pi, but I'm honestly not awful enough to see all the nasty possibilities.

From a different perspective: As someone who until recently lived in
Washington, Microsoft's management stack hasn't changed. It is still a very
Sales-driven organization, with very little leeway given to Engineering to
drive things that are useful, interesting, or innovative. How this fits into a
Microsoft sales plan, I don't see; It might be somebody's pet project based on
their child's interest in a Pi (As was basically the origin of the Zune and
Kinect; I know the sales guys who responsible for allowing those to be
engineered). Regardless, I expect it to be a redheaded stepchild, because it's
sales potential is not proven.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> From a different perspective: As someone who until recently lived in
> Washington, Microsoft's management stack hasn't changed. It is still a very
> Sales-driven organization, with very little leeway given to Engineering to
> drive things that are useful, interesting, or innovative.

You say you lived in Washington, are you implying you were a Microsoft
employee? Seems from everyone I'm hearing from that they've been making major
structure changes for a while now and a lot of the old management has been
shuffled or removed (especially with those huge rounds of layoffs) so I'm
curious as to why I'm hearing something different from what you're saying.

~~~
GauntletWizard
No, my reasons for leaving WA are completely unrelated to Microsoft's layoffs.
And, despite being in the Seattle area for nearly 10 years, I never did work
for them. I just knew a bunch of people who did. Sure, it's getting stirred up
there, but most of the layoffs were low-level, contract, vendor, and new-hire
employees. From what I have heard, the management structure has had a power
struggle, but it was between two camps of the good old boys, and the new boss
is the same as the old boss.

------
databass
Does anyone know what they mean when they say "grounded in trust"? (Seems odd
to imply that other OSes are not trustworthy.) Referring to code signing,
perhaps?

~~~
SixSigma
New Breakfast Flakes - Asbestos Free

[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsbestosFreeCerea...](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsbestosFreeCereal)

------
bambax
Apparently "IoT" means "Internet of Things" ("Windows Developer Program for
IoT").

Is this a wildly recognized acronym so that it doesn't even need a footnote?
(In a Sans Serif font you can't even tell if the first letter is an i or an l;
it's really bad).

~~~
jpindar
Yes.

------
ch4ch4
I hope they get rid of the stupid code-signing requirement that's currently in
RT which prevents all third-party apps from running in RT desktop mode! I'd
love to be able run Chrome on a Windows ARM device...

~~~
Kwastie
If they didn't it would defeat the sole purpose of the Raspberry Pi IMHO.
(Hacking software + hardware)

------
linuxlizard
Is Windows/Pi still an astonishing pain in the ass to talk to the local
hardware? Linux (Unix) /dev is the best part. I don't have to search for
obscure GUIDs to talk to a USB device.

~~~
guardian5x
What GUI? Windows 10 IoT comes without a GUI.

------
mantenpanther
I can't see this working, hence windows is not exactly a lean OS.
Coinincidently I'm stuck in an update/reboot cycle at the moment after a fresh
install. Also i need to extend my partion of 60GB after just installing the OS
(8.1) to get Visual Studio installed (which will also take at least 10GB).

I like the new direction of MS, but i wonder if it's possible to succeed with
so much old baggage to carry...

~~~
lisnake
Their current running WindowsOnDevices program showcases Microsoft's developer
preview of a new, tiny version of Windows that runs on small CPU-based devices
like the Intel Galileo dev board. I'm sure they are aiming for something
similar for RPi2 (it's obviosly impractical to run full scale Windows 10 on
such underpowered devices)

------
belgianguy
I don't think Microsoft is doing it for the Open-Source spirit, as many seem
to believe. They have a long history of attacking/smearing open source and
displaying a "I heart Linux" slide is not sufficient to erase all the FUD and
their questionable software patent licensing schemes (which are completely
anti-open). They called Linux a cancer, even.

I think they're approaching this from a redundancy point of view, if person X
already has Windows on his desktop (on which they have the market cornered),
provide them with subsidized Windows platforms on other hardware where the
monopoly is not yet in place. This then would cause the interest in other
platforms to dwindle, as people would flock to what they know. Here also the
EET mantra could come into play again, by offering features not available to
other platforms.

They need a foothold in other hardware, most likely for the coming of Internet
Of Things.

It makes business sense for them to increase their reach, but don't think that
equals Microsoft being fond of Open-Source.

~~~
Filthy_casual
Can we stop with this argument? Every time a business makes a business-
oriented decision someone will pop out to call them out for being acting for
their own benefit, as if it's somehow bad.

Like every human exchange, you don't have to be an altruist for your deed to
be good. It's alright to do "good" even if it derives some sort of benefit for
yourself or your company.

~~~
higherpurpose
Except this move only really benefits Microsoft. And it's certainly not for
the "love of open source".

~~~
watty
How? It benefits me as a consumer, I'm excited to put Windows 10 on a Pi. It
benefits the RPi foundation (assuming their sales go up).

------
Mikeb85
Even though its Windows 10, the fact its ARM means you won't be able to run
most desktop Windows software. Unlike Linux where most things have already
been ported to ARM (thanks to open source!).

People will discover the limitations very quickly, especially compared to
Raspbian/Ubuntu/OpenSUSE/etc...

------
m_mueller
So I guess windows RT will be continued? I first thought that they're going
x86-only, including the phones.

~~~
guardian5x
There has no announcement been made to discontinue Windows on the ARM
platform.

------
alisnic
I was waiting for a long time for something like that. Now I will be able to
make a very cheap parents' pc

------
erjjones
Anyone have a screenshot of Windows 10 running on the Raspberry Pi 2??? Does
it actually have a GUI?

------
rasz_pl
Fantastic news. Just as positive as that time Microsoft decided to "help out"
with OLPC .....

All of WinRT and Metro you would NEVER want, without that pesky Windows
applications (x86) compatibility every statistical user associates with
Windows brand.

------
alkonaut
Cool news indeed. What is the main selling point of running windows over
linux? Given that the CLR can (or will soon) run in a core version also on
raspbian, what will be the main reason to choose Win10 as a base for an IoT
project? Normally the case for windows over linux involves a desktop, but not
in this case.

Could it be that microsofts API's for IoT/Smart homes will not be part of the
cross platform (core) .NET package? If so then at least this move makes sense:
"use a windows IoT device and you get all these handy microsoft IoT API's".

------
jadeddrag
If the windows source is not open, and we can't verify the builds we run, then
how are we to know if the kernel and drivers, and userland apps are not
tainted with NSA backdoors?

------
marknadal
Could somebody explain how this is possible, given RAM and CPU constraints?
Like, does W10 actually run with that small of a footprint it works on a
Raspberry Pi 2?

~~~
lovelearning
Conceptually, it's just like Windows 8 can run both on a desktop as well as a
Lumia phone. I'm not sure whether they actually share parts of the codebase
(like the linux kernel does), or it's just some common UI elements like tiles
+ shared brand name on top of wildly different kernels.

~~~
guardian5x
In fact they use the NT-Kernel for Windows Phone as well. [1]
[http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-windows-
phone-8-fina...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-windows-
phone-8-finally-gets-a-real-windows-core/)

~~~
lovelearning
That is indeed very informative, thanks!

"...the Windows Phone OS will include the same file system (NTFS), same
networking stack, same security elements, graphics engine (DirectX), device
driver framework and hardware abstraction layer (HAL) as big Windows."

I hadn't realized they share so much. If this statement holds true for the
upcoming Windows 10, then it's probably the very first time DirectX is running
on any SBC. I wonder if Broadcom have made some changes to VideoCore GPU to
support DirectX.

------
datalus
I think this is great, everyone should learn the Win32 API as an example of
how not to design an API for wanting to build applications on top of the OS.

------
4ydx
The raspberry pi is supposed to be an educational tool. You cannot learn
anything about the inner workings of an operating system when it is closed
source. There isn't much of an argument to be made really for Microsoft on
Raspberry Pi. Programming in c# can be done on Linux these days. Why one would
want to use Microsoft is really beyond me.

~~~
ps4fanboy
Operating system education isnt the only objective, Windows is a robust
platform to learn programming and any number of other uses.

------
hoodoof
It's kind of weird Microsoft courting developers again. It's like an ex-
girlfriend wants to rekindle the relationship.

------
BobMarz
Interesting quotes from the CEO Eben Upton.
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/02/windows_10_raspberry...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/02/windows_10_raspberry_pi_2_eben_upton_interview/)

------
mathnode
I had (optimistically) predicted the way to to ARM desktops was with Steam and
gamers coming over to Linux and the majority of code bases being more portable
they could cross-compile games to Linux on ARM.

But this could work too!

------
georgeecollins
This is very smart of Microsoft and good for the Raspberry PI. All the
alternative OSs for Raspberry Pi are still there, and now there is another
with a huge library of software.

------
listic
Has there been 'a version of Windows' (how is this one called, by the way?)
that works on ARM, before? Does this _version_ support any other ARM board?

~~~
sharpneli
Windows RT. It was normal W8, except the W32 api could be accessed only by MS
signed software so developers could use only metro.

~~~
ZenoArrow
Going back a bit you could include Windows CE alongside Windows RT if you
liked. Windows Mobile as well. Is Windows Phone a version of RT?

~~~
bztzt
Windows Phone is some shared core components from Windows desktop (which RT is
basically just an ARM build of) + its own stuff on top. The shared core has
been growing with each release.

------
secfirstmd
This is great. Especially for the developing world where the Pi has great
potential but people only really want to use and learn in a Windows
environment.

------
aceperry
This is one way for Microsoft to get into the IoT game. It'll be interesting
to see if their ARM port is useable on the new Raspberry Pi.

------
masterzoozoo
Awesome news to hear. But I am not sure how far it will be compatible with the
low resources on a Raspberry Pi.

~~~
patja
The just announced supercharged pi model should handle it.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
This is awesome.

Actually, I wonder if I could get ReactOS running on a Pi, might be the
perfect testing platform. Hmm.

------
Alupis
I can't be the only person who first found out about the new Raspberry Pi
here!

Just ordered 2 of them!

------
tkubacki
hah good old MS - no single link to Rasp project - still afraid of L word.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Be brave. You can do it!

------
brickmort
Microsoft is playing a solid game of chess with their competitors.

------
z3t4
Wasn't the goal of windows 10 to run on any system??

------
yuhong
OT, but why did they took so long to go to ARMv7?

------
jbb555
Well I see a lot of people already moving away from Linux due to the systemd
fiasco. This gives people options so that;'s good.

------
gamesbrainiac
wow. Microsoft is pulling out all the stops.

------
venomsnake
Shot over the bridge in some spat with intel?

~~~
nickhalfasleep
Not just Intel, I think Microsoft is aggressively interested in getting
exciting hardware to consumers, and isn't going to wait for their existing big
brands to deliver.

------
bohol
Somewhat surprised that there are around 20 comments and all of the seem to be
from more or less a consumer perspective. The Raspberry Pi is one of the few
embedded devices with aspires to be used as a desktop computer and on top of
that as a way to learn computers. Embedded systems is also one of the few
threats to Windows, but this hasn't really materialized yet since most devices
only comes with android drivers. All in all it's a great strategic move for
Microsoft and confirms my suspicion that Linux is losing the second round of
the desktop wars.

~~~
MoOmer
Once you consider that the version for the Rpi2 is an 'IoT' system, and not a
desktop OS, this comment becomes irrelevant.

~~~
bohol
Considering that what you consider 'IoT' and what Microsoft considers 'IoT'
isn't the same thing it might be your comment that is irrelevant.

[http://image.slidesharecdn.com/iot-
whatisit-140607104402-php...](http://image.slidesharecdn.com/iot-
whatisit-140607104402-phpapp01/95/iot-what-is-it-18-638.jpg)

