
Venezuela offers asylum to Snowden - pitiburi
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/06/us-usa-security-venezuela-idUSBRE96500420130706
======
clarkmoody
I'm a little shocked that even here on Hacker News, most of the top-level
comments fell for the headline, rather than focusing the attention back where
it belongs: _the reason why Snowden needs asylum in the first place_.

Enough of this drama. Snowden has served his purpose in revealing the extend
of the NSA shenanigans, but we really shouldn't have to read about his every
move.

This Reuters news release does not even mention the nature of the leaks that
put Mr. Snowden in this situation. It's truly a sad state of reporting and
public discourse.

Edit: taking a bit of my own advice:

We need to stop the NSA snooping all of our communications and restore due
process for searches and seizures!

~~~
downandout
CNN, and many other liberal "news sources" whose primary charter is to support
the Obama administration can be blamed for most of this. They were minimizing
the importance of the scandal, relegating those who were upset over it to the
tinfoil hat club, and focusing on smearing Snowden personally from Day 1. This
just shows that they have been successful in their endeavor.

~~~
threeseed
Give us a break.

The reason why ALL the news sources (liberal and otherwise) covered this is
because it is newsworthy. It's human nature to want to put a face to a
scandal. And to be honest it's a great face. Snowden is young, exciting,
mysterious, less than perfect. Add the fact that he is jetsetting around the
world, visiting exciting countries with great visuals, upsetting foreign
leaders and creating lots of mini scandals just keeps his story rolling.

CNN especially is just a business. And Snowden is a money maker. No conspiracy
needed to work this one out.

~~~
downandout
That doesn't change the fact that their coverage has been incredibly friendly
to the Obama administration, while being very critical of Snowden. That's
called bias.

------
GVIrish
Assuming Venezuela provides Snowden with some sort of travel document to leave
Russia, the next big question is, how far is the US willing to go to apprehend
him? How exactly is Snowden going to get a flight plan that allows him safe
passage to Venezuela.

Obama previously said 'he's not scrambling jets' to catch him, but given this
week's events I don't believe him. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the US
went after his flight somehow. It seems like this administration is willing to
be the international villain in their attempts to catch Snowden.

And maybe the CIA wouldn't dare forcibly take Snowden out of Russia or China,
but who's to say they wouldn't do so to a smaller, less powerful country?

~~~
bigiain
From my outside-the-US perspective, I've got this cynical theory developing -
the this "international drama" the US government is fueling is much less about
Snowden, and much more about measuring just how much they can get away with in
full public view - relyng on bread and circuses to keep the voting public
distracted. I suspect "they" know that Snowden has almost certainly
distributed all the documents in a way that means that catching and
imprisoning him won't stop their release (and may well accelerate their
release), and that this is all just a power play demonstratingthat "the rules"
are for other people, not The US Governemnt.

~~~
Terretta
It feels as though they got their answer about how the International
diplomatic community may respond: it seems they crossed a line with the Latin
American governments, and US influence in the region is already taking hits.
First Equador renouncing the Andean Trade Preference Act, then the timing of
this feels coupled to the Bolivian plane overreach (in stark contrast to
Obama's "29 yo kid" dismissal). Perhaps it's unlikely to last, but for the
moment we seem to be seeing this bloc standing together, motivated by the US.

------
ciroduran
I live in Venezuela. It is routine here that politicians air private
conversations, by telephone, or even recorded inside houses. Until a few weeks
there was even a TV program, sponsored by the government, that now and then
aired private conversations by opposition leaders, for political benefits of
course.

I really don't know if Snowden knows that, but it would be really ironic if he
accepted the proposal.

~~~
crazygringo
I don't understand why people are trying to hold him to some kind of saintly
standard.

He wanted to do what he could to expose what he believed to be wrongdoing. And
now he simply wants to avoid prison if possible, like pretty much anyone else
would. There's no nobility in throwing away his lifetime in an American jail
-- he's already exposed the NSA's programs, and prison accomplishes nothing
more.

Sure, it's easy to call him a hypocrite for applying for asylum in countries
"less free" than the US. But as long as "free" countries allow themselves to
be pressured by the US, what choice does he have? Would you do anything
different in his shoes?

~~~
graue
Well spoken. Venezuela may not be the freest nation on earth, but I'm glad
there's a few places around that stand up to US government bullying.

I say this as an American who will pledge allegiance to the US Constitution
any day of the week, but not to the US government, especially not in its
current form. I'm genuinely scared at how far my government has gone in
persecuting lawful, nonviolent protesters and activists. Just look at the
Aaron Swartz case, the harassment of Jacob Appelbaum at the border, or police
actions during the Occupy protests (less related to hacker culture but just as
important).

I can no longer believe that those who stay within the law have nothing to
fear from the US government. This may not be true of the Venezuelan government
either, but the fact that they don't let USG boss them around means at least
there are options.

------
evolve2k
The most concerning part of this article are the comments which to me feel
like they have been paid for.

Take this for example:

'Snidely70448 Snowden STOLE 3 NSA computers with top secret classified
government documents in violation of his employment agreement with Booz Allen,
theft alone is a basic crime and when the theft involves top secret government
documents it’s in violation of the Espionage Act. Flight to avoid prosecution
is also a crime in this country. These laws weren’t written yesterday just for
Mr. Snowden. The U.S. is seeking Edward Snowden to answer to those charges.
Plain and simple. He isn’t being singled out or vilified. You claim that NSA
is violating the 4th Amendment (Congress and the Patriot Act disagree with
you), yet you ignore that Snowden violated basic laws of the land.'

~~~
thrownaway2424
That seems like a pretty sane comment. Is there something factual in it with
which you disagree, or are you simply surprised at the existence of opinions
other than your own?

~~~
nikcub
I don't buy into the shill argument, I actually think it is dangerous to write
off an opinion that seems to be shared with around half the US population.
Instead of dismissing the argument I think supporters of his actions need to
argue and reason the case clearly.

That said the problem with the comments are:

* Violation of an employment agreement are not federal crimes * Theft of classified documents is not a violation of the Espionage Act. The reason why the espionage act is from 1917 is because government lawyers love the broad language in it. They haven't needed to update it because it can be applied so broadly, but the language of the law states that there needs to be an intent to aid the enemy or to prevent the US Military from carrying out operations.

The other red flag that indicated that Snowden hasn't violated 'basic laws' is
that the USA is resorting to diplomatic pressure rather than an INTERPOL
notice. You can't use INTERPOL for political charges but you can use it for
more classic charges like theft.

There is a good reason why the 4th amendment was written, it was a lesson
learned form British colonialism where independence oriented towns and
villages were surrounded and houses were searched indiscriminately to shake
out sympathizers opposed to the crown.

------
iaskwhy
Nicaragua is thinking about that as well:
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/06/edward-
snowden-v...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/06/edward-snowden-
venezuela-asylum)

------
rdl
Assuming he makes it down there, who is up for visiting sometime? I've never
been to Venezuela -- Angel Falls is really the only tourist thing which
interests me there.

~~~
dfc
I would not mind spending some time on the beaches and doing a little fishing.
You buy my ticket and we can have a HN meetup.

~~~
christoph
Ditto.

~~~
stfu
Now, all we have to do is charter a bus and go on a road trip. But
unfortunately christoph, you are out. Only 3&4 letter nicks may board the bus
;)

~~~
dfc
I think you missed part of my message, _rdl has to charter the bus._

~~~
rdl
My hope was Snowden would pick a neutral or slightly decent place for asylum
and exile, and it would maybe turn into the new US (i.e. "free place where
people go to avoid oppression"), and maybe a startup hub for security (Berlin
would be a top choice for that...) A protracted court case for extradition in
Hong Kong would have been awesome for that, except for the high cost of
housing.

But Venezuela is really not a place I'd consider. It's not Equatorial Guinea,
but isn't even Argentina.

------
reaganing
That's rich.[1]

[1]: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2009/10...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2009/10/04/AR2009100402866.html)

~~~
andrewcooke
why? the usa offers asylum to people yet has the largest fraction of the
population imprisoned in the world. _and_ guantanamo. _and_ the death penalty.

why raise the standards for other countries?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration)

(don't get me wrong - venezuela has serious problems. but cherry picking
examples for one country is no argument at all. people in glass houses....

also, wouldn't it make the world a worst place if we required the country
offering asylum to be "better" than the country persecuting someone? that
seems pointless, except for internet point-scoring)

[edited multiple times btw]

~~~
reaganing
Sure, I'll agree that Guantanamo's a stain on this country.

And while we have entirely too many prisoners in this country, they aren't
'political prisoners'. People aren't thrown into prison for protesting the
government. (Or not generally, you _did_ have McCarthyism and such in the
past)

~~~
k-mcgrady
And your response to the death penalty?

~~~
mc32
The death penalty is a state by state issue. Some have it as an option, others
have abolished it as an option.

~~~
nknighthb
The death penalty is not simply a state-by-state issue.

Besides the existence of a federal and military death penalty, the federal
court system, including the US Supreme Court, deals with Constitutional issues
related to the death penalty in states constantly, and has imposed various
restrictions on its usage. SCOTUS has also been on an excruciatingly slow but
clear path towards total nationwide abolishment.

There is very little in the US that can be treated as purely state-by-state,
and so long as the 8th and 14th amendments exist, capital punishment
definitely isn't one of them.

~~~
mc32
I think you're being overly technical here.

It's like saying State Insurance isn't a simple state issue because there
could be intervention by the feds. Of course, but de-facto, it's a state issue
and the Feds have their own purview for things like the military and treason,
etc.

But, if a state wanted to eliminate it, they could, so long as their
legislature or judiciary so decided. So it is a state by state issue, by and
large.

[PS] I think allowing things to be done state by state actually help in the
end to get the whole nation to agree on things which as a whole it might not
without states or a state 'testing the waters' as it were. Eventually I see
all states eliminating capital punishment, and I think being able to refer to
states that have and show that it has not resulted in higher murder rates post
elimination is a good thing. Same for pot laws and same sex marriage laws. In
this big republic, given that we're not a strictly civil law, I think this bit
by bit helps out, in the long run.

~~~
nknighthb
No, you're missing the point. The nation as a whole permits the death penalty
to continue, even if some political subdivisions choose not to impose it
themselves.

The idea of 50 sovereign states doing their own thing is merely a convenient
fiction for those who don't want the murders conducted in their name to bother
their conscience.

And it falls apart completely when you remember, the federal government
sentences people to death, too, not just states. America conducts state-
sponsored murder. Not even the 50-state fiction shields anyone from that
reality.

Edit Re PS: Speaking of being technical... You're focusing on the mechanisms.
I'm very familiar with the mechanisms, and I don't care about them. I care
about the result. The result is we remain one of forty countries, almost all
of which we hypocritically lambast for their human rights records, to retain
the death penalty. No amount of procedural justification will change that, nor
will it reduce our moral responsibility.

~~~
reaganing
The federal government does still utilize the death penalty, but it's very
rare these days. Only three times since 1963, whereas Texas has executed 500
people since 1982.

------
pitiburi
In the video you can see Maduro, Venezuela's President, making the official
decision public. Of course, it's still to be seen if Snowden decides to go
there, and how\when is he going to do it.

~~~
nknighthb
Depends on how much money Venezuela is willing to spend on it, and how much
Russia is willing to cooperate.

I just plotted a path from Moscow to Venezuela that avoids non-
Russian/Venezuelan airspace. It's less than 12,000km. Several modern Boeing
and Airbus planes can do that non-stop.

~~~
NonEUCitizen
Can you post this path ?

~~~
caf
A great circle route from Murmansk to Caracas just touches the northern parts
of Finland and Norway, and crosses Iceland. It's 9,300km long, so you should
be able to modify that route to skirt those countries and stay under the
12,000km given.

[http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MMK-
CCS&MS=wls2&DU=km](http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MMK-CCS&MS=wls2&DU=km)

~~~
NonEUCitizen
Finland and Norway might do a France/Portugal...

------
bitops
One thing I don't understand is why Mr. Snowden did not remain anonymous when
he leaked his information? Wouldn't that have given him more options for
avoiding reprisal? Or did he reveal his identity to protect himself?

~~~
b6
He said in the original interview with Greenwald that he felt that since he
was breaking the law, he owed it to Americans to explain why. The way he's
done it, he's the very definition of a whistleblower.

------
contingencies
Heh, quite stylish that Maduro mentioned the US/Israel's proxy war in Syria in
the same breath. Interestingly, pre-conflict Syrian relations were discussed
pointedly by Assange with Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah, in his _The World
Tomorrow_ interview: [https://assange.rt.com/nasrallah-episode-
one/](https://assange.rt.com/nasrallah-episode-one/) Dig the beard.

------
norswap
> "Who is the guilty one? A young man ... who denounces war plans, or the U.S.
> government which launches bombs and arms the terrorist Syrian opposition
> against the people and legitimate President Bashar al-Assad?" he asked, to
> applause and cheers from ranks of military officers at the parade.

I had to laugh at the sheer absurdity.

------
cupcake-unicorn
Going with Iceland kind of seems like a no-brainer. He initially went to Hong
Kong, which has a much lower incident of Government corruption than even the
US (forgot the link, saw this mentioned in an article). I'm guessing that
Venezuela is not going to score very high on that list compared to Iceland. In
addition, as others have mentioned, it becomes much more political, as there
is an "enemy"/animosity vibe between us and some Latin American countries,
whereas there is not with Iceland.

It would end up being kind of ironic and sad if he had to live in a country
that ended up being just as corrupt and used this level of spying on its own
citizens. Pretty confident that Iceland would not be pulling crap like that.

~~~
tempestn
Except that Iceland isn't even close to offering him asylum.

"The proposal to grant Snowden citizenship received limited support when it
was discussed Thursday — the last day before summer recess. Six members of
minority parties were in favor out of Parliament's 63 members."
[http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/07/05/nsa-snowden-
ic...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/07/05/nsa-snowden-iceland.html)

------
jsumrall
I'm sure he's relieved to hear he's able to go to Venezuela.

------
RRRA
Here is the president's video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RILfbj7m6CI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RILfbj7m6CI)

------
brianbreslin
Assuming he were to fly commercial. What way can he get from SVO to Caracas
(CCS)? Like what's a possible route whereby he isn't flying over
france/italy/spain which have supposedly not allowed him to fly over their
airspace? Is a jet chartered for him? Does a G4 have the range? Where does it
need to stop to refuel?

------
digisign
Venezuela has great beaches and lovely ladies, can't ask for much more.

------
conanbatt
I was actually fearing that Argentina would volunteer for this. I appreciate
that they got the jump on us in this case. I dont think we(Argentina) should
meddle on this one.

~~~
thufry
There was no risk of that, Argentina has too much to lose.

~~~
conanbatt
I wouldnt be so sure. The Gov needs more help from Venezuela than from the US.

------
pwnna
Who cares? Let's go back to the NSA.

------
shell0x
Make sure to use Ghostery when visiting this website. Ghostery claims to have
18! trackers found there.

~~~
panacea
How can I trust that Ghostery is legit??

------
brimtown
Would he even be able to leave Moscow without a passport?

~~~
gasull
Yes, Venezuela can issue a travel document like the one Snowden used from
Ecuador to get to Moscow from Hong Kong.

~~~
muuck
If he was handed travel documents by Ecuador why is he stuck on a Russian
airport? I assumed he did travel under his own password wich was still valid
when he left Hong Kong.

~~~
gasull
I think Ecuador issued a document and was studying to offer asylum, then
backed off under US pressure.

------
pradocchia
that's great! next step: get to venezuela.

