
Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel - Jaruzel
http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/2013/04/ask-a-knifemaker-the-truth-about-damascus/
======
Caillebotte
Back in my high school days, I made a beautiful damascus blade from 5160 leaf
springs and 1095. After having worked in the labs at
[https://www.scotforge.com/](https://www.scotforge.com/), it is apparent
damascus has very little large scale use due to weak tensile strengths(which
of course depends on the forging process). However, in personal, small scale
use, I've noticed my damascus blade has withstood much more than say, a pure
1095 blade could endure. Essentially, the higher the carbon the more brittle
the blade despite the heat treatment process. Damascus in a small blade seemed
to yield properties of each steel involved without using a costly alloy. It is
very difficult to combine high carbon steels with stainless steels due to the
large difference in heat treatment processes, as stainless steels are very
often air hardened, and carbon steels are hardened in a brine or oil solution.

------
hprotagonist
pattern welding is, effectively, a solution to a problem we don't have any
more.

When steel quality varied widely between batches, you needed a reliable way to
mix it up so that the overall properties of the resulting object were
predictable. This evolved into a more sophisticated technique that gave you
not only predictability but differential properties (harder steel at the edge,
more ductile in the spine) and a pretty visual result.

The batch variability problem isn't a problem any more, and we can get
differential properties with very precise heat treatments now, so all that's
left is the pretty visual result.

So, if it appeals to you; great! Just don't think you're getting anything
that's super magical above and beyond what a modern alloy can do.

~~~
scns
I know this does not have anithing to do with knives but Samurai swords are
made from four different kinds of steel. The core, back, sides and the cutting
edge. The sword is straight when forged and the arc comes from the hardening
when the cutting edge expands more than the rest. Source: witnessed in person
the first time when a katana was forged outside of japan at a festival at the
japanese culture institute in cologne. The swordsmiths have the rank of a
priest and wear white robes.

~~~
hef19898
From a pure material perpective, the issues, also for the Japanese, was poor
steel and iron ore quality (as an other comment stated above). So in order to
get all you inpurities out of the final product, melting processes weren't up
to the task yet, you are basically obliged to pattern weld the shit out of
your steel.

Particularly in Japan, this was compounded by having iron ore mostly as part
of a sand-ore mixture (without magnets getting the pure ore out without mixing
it with sand is close to impossible). As a result the Japanese came up with a
very smart forging technioque to solve that problem. And the swords, at least
the high end ones, are pieces of art. Not fielding full-plate armor like the
Europeans did, cutting remained a desired quality for a soldiers side arm. So
they stuck with it. Simultaniously, the Europeans developed spring steel and
weapons developed in a totally different direction.

------
vvanders
For the pocket knife aficionados out there, if your ever in Portland higly
reccomend taking a tour of Benchmade's factory. They've got a ton of history
about the company and you get a chance to view the factory floor(industrial
laser cutters!) where all their knives are made.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
My day job is driving a 4kW fibre laser for cutting steel. AMA ;)

Recently a couple of people have had me cut knives from old circular saw
blades from timber mills. It's a fairly hard wearing steel, and they got the
old blades for free.

Just hobby knives, I think they do it mostly for the enjoyment of making their
own knives, well fitting and shaping the handle, sharpening it. You'd still be
able to say "I made that" to a much greater extend than a store bought one.

~~~
vvanders
That's pretty cool, I'm assuming it runs from 240 or is it something beefier?

Their factory is pretty neat, it's much smaller than I would have expected
given their volume. Happy to support a company that does all it's work in the
US even if the prices are higher.

One of the thing that was interesting from the factory tour was that they were
really just a high precision (at the time in the 80s) machine shop. Most of
their work is pairing with an existing designer(Osbourne, Pardue, Williams,
etc). It's an interesting business model compared to some of the other
manufacturers out there.

~~~
volkl48
Not the OP, but the "standard" electrical connection in a metal shop is
usually 480v 3-phase, most tools are going to use that.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Yep, this is correct, 3 phase.

------
21
> _When it comes down to it, most of today’s super exotic alloys will
> outperform any pattern-welded steel ... A well-made Damascus blade will stay
> sharp for longer than most production quality knives, but if you’re looking
> for the ends-of-the-earth best performing blade steel, look elsewhere_

Can someone link/name one of these super exotic alloys knifes?

~~~
int_19h
Some examples would be CPM S30V, S35VN, S90V, and S110V; CPM 3V, 9V, 10V, 15V;
A2, D2, O1 and S7; VG-10.

Some of these are arguably "more Damascus than Damascus", in a sense that
they're also mixes, but on a much finer level. For example, S30V - a
relatively affordable "super steel" \- is one of those known as "powder
steels" due to the way they're made, achieving extreme uniformity and purity
of the alloy even at microscopic level:

[https://www.knifeart.com/particlesteel.html](https://www.knifeart.com/particlesteel.html)

This lets knife makers create alloys that are outright impossible using
traditional methods (because they wouldn't be able to make them uniform
enough). It also means that they can formulate an alloy precisely to match the
desired qualities, instead of approximating it by mixing steels in layers as
Damascus does.

The kind of stuff we can do with modern technology and modern materials would
be considered genuine magic back in the days where the quality of those blades
was a life-or-death matter. It's kinda ironic that these days, we use it for
EDC knives to avoid sharpening them more often than we'd like.

Here's a good example of how a modern knife made from one of the highest-end
steels performs (scroll down to the "Performance" section):

[http://knifeinformer.com/spyderco-
military-s110v-review/](http://knifeinformer.com/spyderco-
military-s110v-review/)

~~~
vvanders
Really big fan of S30V, it's a pretty decent blend of edge retention without
being an absolute pain to resharpen.

There's some really interesting specialty metals out there like Boye Dendritic
Cobalt[1]. I've got one of their sheepsfoot folders and it's a pretty neat for
a specialty knife.

[1] [https://www.boyeknives.com/pages/new-dendritic-
cobalt](https://www.boyeknives.com/pages/new-dendritic-cobalt)

~~~
int_19h
I actually find even S30V to be a bit overkill as far as resharpening goes,
and prefer softer steels that are easier to keep sharp with little effort and
basic tools, even if you need to do it more often - such as 14C28N and VG-10.

But it's all very subjective. I have some S30V and S35VN folders, too, and
large 3V choppers (got a couple Fehrmans back in the day on a whim). They're
all great blades, and if it comes to a zombie apocalypse, I'm definitely
swinging a Fehrman. But until then... ~

~~~
vvanders
Yeah, I've got a Benchmade Anthem which is easily one of my favorites(aside
from the fact that the incredibly smooth action may qualify it as a gravity
knife in some overly zealous jurisdictions), however the CPM-20SV is pretty
hard to resharpen if you let it go too far.

I probably just need to spend some proper time to learn it as almost all my
other stuff is either 30SV or 154CM.

------
Blackthorn
> Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has
> been lost to the centuries.

I've watched the artists on Man at Arms Reforged make wootz steel in a kiln
from pig iron and wrought iron when recreating a Viking-era sword. It
certainly isn't lost.

edit: video here if anyone is interested:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EG34YoRHs8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EG34YoRHs8)

~~~
frostburg
Nobody knows if the modern approach is the same, even if using historically
appropriate tools and materials.

~~~
irrational
But if the result is indistinguishable from old examples, does it matter if
the approach is different?

~~~
pdpi
The discussion is whether the _technique_ is lost, not whether we can
reproduce the results. So... yes, it does matter. It is, in fact, the crux of
the matter.

~~~
stephengillie
If we can map all possible ways of making the material, surely one of them
must be the ancient technique.

~~~
sagebird
If we arrange all possible combinations of letters into strings, then we can
have all the books which burned in Alexandria. But if you had to walk along an
isle in the library of the superset of all possible books, you would die
before you came across one that existed. And if you could live forever, there
would be uncountable minor varations variations of imposter books before the
actual one.

~~~
grzm
If this isn't already the plot to a Borges short story, it should be.

~~~
nytopop
It is - The Library of Babel.

~~~
grzm
Sounds like I'm past due for pulling _Labyrinths_ out of storage.

------
dmourati
Knife community is pretty tight and also pretty accessible. I've exchanged
emails with Devin Thomas and I'm a relative newbie.

I think of damascus as an aesthetic element first. Some people really like it,
others find it too flashy.

~~~
kareemm
Can I ask how you got started, and why? Thinking about picking up knife making
as a hobby and curious about your experience. Feel free to email me - address
in profile.

~~~
dmourati
I'm a knife owner not a maker.

------
learc83
I just watched a recent documentary on an attempt to recreate Wootz steel.
Worth checking out if you're interested in the subject.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4)

~~~
dmix
Al Pendray in the documentary also wrote a book about Wootz and explained why
he believes the technique was 'lost to history':

> The smiths that produced the high-quality blades would most likely have kept
> the process for making these blades a closely guarded secret to be passed on
> only to their apprentices. The smiths would be able to teach the apprentices
> the second and third points listed, but point one is something they would
> not have known. There is no difference in physical appearance between an
> ingot with the proper minor elements present and one without. Suppose that
> during several generations all of the ingots from India were coming from an
> ore body with the proper amount of minor elements present, and blades with
> good patterns were being produced. Then, after a few centuries, the ore
> source may have been exhausted or become inaccessible to the smithing
> community; therefore, the technique no longer worked. With time, the smiths
> who knew about the technique died out without passing it on to their
> apprentices (since it no longer worked), so even if a similar source was
> later found, the knowledge was no longer around to exploit it. The possible
> validity of this theory could be examined if data were available on the
> level of carbide-forming elements in the various ore deposits in India used
> to produce wootz steel.

[http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/2017/06/knifemaking-
legen...](http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/2017/06/knifemaking-legend-al-
pendray-father-of-modern-wootz-has-passed/)

------
claydavisss
Damascus steel requires much more time to hone. It holds an edge longer, but
I'm not sure it is worth the frustration involved in getting an edge.

My favorite straight razors are my vintage ones, mostly because the steel is
of lower quality....they take an edge real fast!

Damascus steel also makes products very expensive. I tend to lose straight
razors and pocket knives, so it doesn't make sense to make such a large
investment. The investment will extend to honing stones....you'll probably
want a Belgian Coticule which run $100+.

Damascus steel looks super cool though. If I was a superstar sushi chef, I'd
want Damasteel just for the brag points.

~~~
abakker
Your experience is not wrong, but the cause you attribute it to is. Damascus
steels are made out of modern steels. Modern steels tend to contain
molybdenum, vanadium, chromium, tungsten, etc. when they are heat treated,
some of those elements above form carbides in the steel. When you try to cut
those carbides with a stone, you don’t. You need diamond stones to sharpen
high carbide steel. Without that, the carbide scores the water stone and the
stone erodes the steel around the carbide inclusions. Essentially making the
edge lumpy.

In old steels -1077, 1084, and 1095, there are few carbides that aren’t iron-
based. This makes sharpening much much easier, and also makes edges dull much
faster. In a straight razor, I (like you) would rather optimize for easy
sharpening/honing, but, for other purposes, more modern steels perform better.

------
loopycode
Aren't Damascus blades originally an Indian invention?

~~~
_emacsomancer_
The 'wootz' style Damascus is; Europeans didn't know it originally came from
Southern India because it came through traders in Damascus.

The 'pattern-welded' Damascus is known from Europe (maybe as an attempt to
replicate the 'wootz' style Damascus?) But it exists elsewhere as well.

------
CaliforniaKarl
Also possibly of interest: NHK World's _Japanology Plus_ episode "Bladed
Tools": [https://youtu.be/afQgQ5gLYO8](https://youtu.be/afQgQ5gLYO8)

------
deedubaya
My favorite knife is a Northman crafted hunting knife. It’s beautiful,
imperfect, and holds an edge really well.

[https://youtu.be/J3nojb-gFH4](https://youtu.be/J3nojb-gFH4)

------
legohead
This guy explains it better I think:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISSGL4Ns2qw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISSGL4Ns2qw)

~~~
justicezyx
Walter is one strange person on Youtube, simply just for forging knives. Not a
bit of showing off his history, he actually is a writer...

------
efremjw
Is it possible to make corrosion resistant stainless in the Damascus
style...or will the dissimilar materials cause galvanic corrosion or the
spaces between the different alloys result in crevice corrosion?

~~~
grzm
The article explicitly mentions an all-stainless Damascus steel formulation:

> _" Devin makes all-stainless Damascus steel, _high contrast, double high
> carbon, and many, many exotic patterns. _"_

~~~
efremjw
Right, but even raw pure stainless of let's say 304 or 316 will rust in naked
form due to the small crevices left on the surface straight from the mill...if
multiple dissimilar layers of stainless or folded, it seems to me that
stainless Damascus will be very vulnerable to rusting... unless there is
something in the chemistry between the individual layers that mitigates this,
no?

------
gesman
Just FYI:

Absolute hardest material for knife blades is ZrO2 (Zirconium dioxide ==
Ceramic).

It also the most brittle, but never rusts and holds sharpness for insane
amount of time.

~~~
somberi
Kycoera is one popular brand. But off late it seems like ceramic knives have
hit upon some production efficiency, and there are many brands to choose from.

They do blunt, say after 6 months of use. Kyocera for one, provides a free
sharpening service if you mail their knives in. Ceramic blade gets sharpened
on diamond wheels, and they have to be mailed in.

~~~
gesman
I own Kyocera kitchen knife as well as some made-in-china ceramic folder.

Both are performing really well. If I'd buy Chinese made steel knife - it
probably would get dull after cutting 3 sandwiches or so. Ceramic knife
apparently performing extremely well and remains sharp as expected.

Also - i saw there are ceramic knife sharpeners available - so i plan to get
one sometime.

------
witcher
Short reminder, that you can use Damascus steel.. everywhere and it looks
really awesome. That's why I have some on my wedding ring... ^^

------
dingoegret
Sad to see the Middle Eastern developed techniques for forging raw materials
dug up in Pakistan into Damascus steel be lost to history.

------
ummonk
This post is blatantly wrong. Wootz steel (sourced from India but known in the
West as Damascus steel because that was where a lot of the blades were made)
was not pattern welded / folded.

Pattern welding was used in the West to try and emulate these blades, and has
gotten the name "Damascus steel", but it is not classic Damascus / wootz
steel.

~~~
grzm
The article makes exactly this point:

> _" First, let’s do a little freshening up on what exactly “Damascus steel”
> is. Damascus, Wootz, and patternweld are all names given to different types
> of steels and blades. Basically, the idea is that two or more steel alloys
> are forged/cast together through various methods to give the wavy artistic
> pattern that comes from such a layering process. Unfortunately, the
> technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the
> centuries. Anyone claiming to be making authentic Wootz/Damascus these days
> is delusional. Or lying . . ."_

...

> _" The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”.
> Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost
> since about the 16th century. The art form has resurfaced, though, and in
> 1973 bladesmith William F. Moran unveiled his “Damascus knives” at the
> Knifemakers’ Guild Show. Ever since then modern pattern-welded steel blades
> have been called “Damascus knives”."_

~~~
ummonk
_> "The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”.
Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost since
about the 16th century._

That's simply wrong. It wasn't pattern-welded. It appeared similar to pattern-
welded steel, but was manufactured without any pattern-welding.

~~~
roel_v
"but was manufactured without any pattern-welding."

How do we know? I see this claimed a lot by those into the mystique of
Damascus, but if we don't know how they were made as you claim, then how do
you know they're not pattern welded?

~~~
ummonk
We do know generally how they were made. Wootz was crucible steel. It's just
not a living tradition and we don't have documentation of the exact details.

In recent years, some people have been able to figure out the process, making
use of impurities present in the original wootz, to create blades that
chemically, structurally, and visually resemble the original wootz blade. The
methods they have come up with are probably the same methods used to make
original damascus blades; we just can't confirm that since the original
process isn't documented well enough to know exact details.

------
mmaunder
I chuckle when in film they describe a blade as folded over 200 times. 2^200
is a lot. And anything more than a few folds gives you mush.

------
gerdesj
Demascene.

~~~
stan_rogers
That, too, is an ambiguous term, since _damascene_ and _damascening_ can refer
to ground, engraved or machined surface patterning (such as in watchmaking or
"engine turned" panels).

------
pandeya
So sad to see an article written about Damascus steel origin without the
origin being mentioned. The origin of Damascus steel was India where it was
called Ukku. Wootz is derived from Ukku.

------
sergiotapia
>Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has
been lost to the centuries.

>For instance Devin Thomas is a master Damascus steel maker. He forges every
billet himself and has the process down to a science.

So which one is it?

~~~
grzm
The article makes clear that the modern usage is a misnomer in that the
process is not the same. That said, given that the term _is_ currently widely
used for modern knives, it's needlessly pedantic to insist that one not call
the modern knives Damascus steel.

> _" The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”.
> Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost
> since about the 16th century. The art form has resurfaced, though, and in
> 1973 bladesmith William F. Moran unveiled his “Damascus knives” at the
> Knifemakers’ Guild Show. Ever since then modern pattern-welded steel blades
> have been called “Damascus knives”."_

