
The Odyssey – Alexander Pope translation (1725) - bookofjoe
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3160/3160-h/3160-h.htm
======
EarthIsHome
There's a recent (2017) English translation of the Odyssey by Emily Wilson.
It's absolutely electric!

Robert Fagles is one of the most famous English translators of the Odyssey,
but I find Wilson's to be more fun to read.

I think one reason why I enjoy Wilson's translation more is because she
translates each line using iambic pentameter (like how Shakespeare wrote). The
original is in six-footed lines (dactylic hexameters). This is an important
style choice because dactylic hexameter was a great choice for poets in the
ancient Greek language, but a poor choice in English. The translation into
English using iambic pentameter gives the poem a natural flow in English.

What's most impressive is that Wilson's translation is the same length as the
original, with exactly the same number of lines while changing the meter from
dactylic hexameter to iambic pentameter!

~~~
bookofjoe
Alexander Pope is not chopped liver!

>When Alexander Pope's majestic translation of Homer's Odyssey appeared in
1726, his translation of the Iliad had already been acclaimed by Samuel
Johnson as "a performance which no age or nation could hope to equal."

~~~
justin66
> his translation of the Iliad had already been acclaimed by Samuel Johnson as
> "a performance which no age or nation could hope to equal."

This is the literary equivalent of claiming 640K should be enough for anybody.

~~~
coldtea
The difference being in art this is possible, as art doesn't get better, just
gets different.

Bach is no lesser than deadmau5 because deadmau5 composes 300 years later. But
technology from 300 years before is by definition less advanced than todays...

~~~
watwut
The english language changes over time too.

~~~
coldtea
Yes, but not for the "better" either. It's more like art than technology.

~~~
watwut
The translation cease to be good over time, because the meaning of words
changes and the way people construct sentences changes. The way people speak
and understand text changes.

What was pleasant to read text 300 years ago is unpleasant hard to read text.
What was normal word 300 years ago is unusual rare word now. What is even
worst, the same word now can mean something completely different.

It is more like technology then music in this regard.

~~~
adamsea
> The translation cease to be good over time, because the meaning of words
> changes and the way people construct sentences changes.

Agree with the rest of what you say but take issue with “ceases to be good”,
since, even with translations, determining what is “good” about a piece of
literature is complicated and often more about the process than the outcome.

For example some translation which still has a lot of artistic merit or
historical importance, but, as you said, is now dated and difficult to read
because the language has changed so much since when the translation was
written.

I’d argue it doesn’t make sense to call that translation “bad”. “Bad for an
undergraduate”, or “bad as a first translation to read, or “bad at X”, some
specific thing, but overall bad? Personally I’d argue now.

Also for what it’s worth even if the science behind music doesn’t change,
music itself - how we hear it and our culture for it - kinda does.

For example, lots of sounds / music that used to be considered unbearable
noise is now widely accepted and popular. Looking at the changes in western
popular music in the 20th century is a great example of this.

But —- I agree with you that language and music (and art) are all sort of
their own kinds of technologies!

There are materials and techniques and functions and so on. The technology /
art divide is much blurrier than is often appreciated. :)

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pmoriarty
_The Odyssey_ was _not_ translated by Alexander Pope, but by a ghostwriter
Pope hired to translate it under his name. He did this to cash in on the
enormous popularity of his translation of Homer's _Iliad_ , compared to which
the ghostwritten work pales.

Pope's translation of the _Iliad_ is one of the most amazing books I've ever
read. Highly, highly recommended if you want to experience stunningly
beautiful and powerful language.

~~~
dang
Wow, that's fascinating. How the hell do we get that in the title.

Maybe we'll use his name as the label of the translation but without
explicitly saying he translated it. That seems approximately what you
described.

~~~
pvg
It's a little overstated.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Pope#Translation_of_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Pope#Translation_of_the_Odyssey)

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CalChris
Back stories help, and so with the _Odyssey_ it really helps to have read the
_Oresteia_ (yes, Aeschylus is writing later) before the _Odyssey_ , in my
opinion, this helps more than having read the _Iliad_. It helps because the
Telemachy (the first four books with Telemachus) compares Telemachus (he's
such an entitled twerp) to Orestes and then in the 11th book Odysseus descends
into the underworld and questions Agamemnon. So it helps to know what they're
talking about.

With the _Iliad_ , it helps to know about the _Judgment of Paris_ but I think
my prof at Berkeley simply recited it. I don't know what the 'classic' telling
would be.

Of course it helps to have read the _Iliad_ and the _Odyssey_ before the
_Aeneid_. The first half, the Odyssean half, is just a lot more fun because of
Dido. She's like Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet. But when Dido does what Dido
did then in the Iliadic second half you're stuck with stoic Aeneas (and
Turnus) and Aeneas is just not that interesting.

I would say:

    
    
      1. Judgment of Paris (somehow, somewhere, Robert Graves?)
      2. Iliad (I'm a huge fan of Lattimore)
      3. Oresteia (at least Agamemnon)
      4. Odyssey
      5. Aeneid
    

I could never get into Joyce but I may give him another try.

~~~
leephillips
Joyce’s great novel has nothing except the most tenuous and inessential
connection with the Odyssey, despite the title. Joyce removed the chapter
titles that had referred to the Odyssey after the first edition, and said that
he regretted ever having put them in there, because they had misled readers
and critics into imagining parallels to the Greek story that did not exist.
The main character does wander around, though.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> Joyce’s great novel has nothing except the most tenuous and inessential
> connection with the Odyssey

Joyce’s own chart of the construction of the book[0] features the Odyssey
chapter titles as prominently as any of the other issues. Certainly there is
an "essential" connection to the Odyssey, though it is just one rich
ingredient for this masterpiece among others. Joyce’s later regret can be
chalked down to people imagining parallels that he didn’t intend, but I don’t
think there’s a scholar around who doesn’t believe that Joyce wrote the
barmaids as a parallel to the sirens, or the Citizen to the Cyclops.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_schema_for_Ulysses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_schema_for_Ulysses)

~~~
leephillips
Sure, but those are the kinds of things that I was calling a tenuous
connection. All I meant was that a scholarly familiarity with Homer is not
necessary to appreciate Joyce’s book.

------
bjornedstrom
This is a good thread to ask: Who reads Homer in your country, and why?

I'm currently learning ancient Greek as my "Corona project": purely for fun,
and mainly because I'm interested in Greek philosophy and culture.

That said, I feel a bit lonely in my country in pursuing this. Sweden has no
strong history of classical studies. Some high schools may offer a course in
latin, but it's getting more and more rare, and as far as I know there are not
even courses in university because the interest is too low. I don't know
anyone and I don't know _of_ anyone in Sweden who actually reads/knows the
language.

When I talk to friends in the US, the UK and the Netherlands on the other
hand, Greek and the classical Greek works (including Homer, of course) seems
to be much more popular and also part of normal young adult education. One of
my friends, an American in his late 20:s, had to read the Odessey in high
school. My fiance from the Netherlands was offered either latin or greek in
high school as well. Most of my textbooks in greek are written by American,
English and Dutch authors. So these nations seem to have a stronger tradition
in classics.

Can anyone care to elaborate the situation where you live? I'm very curious
what motivates people to learn dead languages and read books thousands years
old.

~~~
stevesimmons
Here are some personal data points from Australia and The Netherlands:

Australia:

* My high school in Melbourne had one class (15 people) learning Latin to year 12 level. Funnily enough, almost all of us also studied advanced math, and more than half were left-handed. By the end, we were reading the Aeneid, Catullus and Cicero.

* Why did I pick Latin? Well, at my school, two foreign languages were compulsory for years 7-10, and optional for years 11 and 12. In year 7 and 8, everyone had to do Latin, and either French or German. In year 9, around half switched from Latin to Mandarin.

* Two of my friends also did Ancient Greek. They were taught by the school headmaster, who was a Classics scholar.

* That year, in the whole state of Victoria, the total number of year 12 students taking Latin and Ancient Greek were 70 and 6 respectively.

* At university, my engineering school required us to take one subject in a non-technical faculty. I chose Ancient Greek, to complement my Latin from high school. That class had around 60 students. 2/3 of them were of Greek descent and already spoke modern Greek.

* The only Greek word I remember now is κῠβερνήτης (helmsman). You may recognise it as Kubernetes :)

Netherlands:

* My partner, who is Dutch, studied Latin at high school there.

* His school was a "gymnasium", a category of very academic high schools which traditionally taught Latin and Greek. Check out [1] for the background to these gymnasium schools in the Netherlands and various countries.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_(school)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_\(school\))

~~~
thisrod
My school experience sounds exactly like yours—including the gay and Catullus
bits—except it was Adelaide so the state had 10 Latin students instead of 70.

I first read the Illiad (Fagels) by torchlight, in a tent by a campfire in a
muddy field, next to a cliff where I was risking my neck each day to impress
the other boys in the university mountain club. As everyone should.

------
jively
I actually have a few original sets of this collection (second edition), and
then a few later prints of both Iliad and Odyssey (A set from ~1730, and
another from the 1770s, the latter binding is lovely, early copies tend to be
in worse condition unless you have chunks of cash to spend).

IMHO the Iliad is far more fun than the Odyssey regardless of translation, it
also features much better in the wider Hellenic corpus as a reference point if
you like to see how it influences wider classic drama.

I became a little obsessed with him for a while because he became a
millionaire in his time by essentially inventing DLC: His courtly friends
would buy each volume of the books in advance, so he generated a solid stream
of revenue so long as he hit his deadlines. For a poet that's good going.

His Greek wasn't particularly good, so it's suggested that quite a few people
helped him, which makes the translation itself inaccurate, but there's no
denying his poetic flair.

If you're looking for classic Pope I'd say look at the Rape of the Lock (which
most folks read in school), and some of his satires - like Dante though they
require some historical knowledge because he was very much a satirist and
political commentator and used poetry as a means of expression rather tyhan
art.

Bonus fact: did you know he invented the insult "namby pamby", it's derived
from a nickname he came up with for one of his literary and courtly rivals.

------
goodlifeodyssey
I studied engineering in undergrad, and have only become interested in
"classics" for the past couple of years. Homer is great. I've only read
Fagles' translation, but plan on Pope next. I've been amazed at how much
reading the classics has affected the way I view the world. I find stories and
references popping into my head all the time, and when they do you feel this
great connection to centuries (millenia!) of humanity.

I look forward to expanding a bit outside of the Western Canon. Also, one
wonders about the many stories that have been lost over the centuries.

When I read, I like to collect quotations. My quotes from the Odyssey are
here: [https://goodlifeodyssey.com/the-
odyssey](https://goodlifeodyssey.com/the-odyssey)

~~~
jmeister
+1 on feeling the connection to history.

You will like Sappho(if you haven’t read it already).

~~~
goodlifeodyssey
Thanks!

I've read most of this collection of Greek Lyric fragments:

[https://books.google.com/books/about/Greek_Lyric.html?id=-aY...](https://books.google.com/books/about/Greek_Lyric.html?id=-aYtAwAAQBAJ)

If I recall, there are only a handful of fragments from Sappho that survived.
Is this what you were referring to? (Or perhaps I a mistaken and the
collection I had only included a few.)

~~~
dri_ft
Indeed, we only have a tiny amount of Sappho by volume, a slim pamphlet's
worth, mostly fragments of a line or two. Heartbreakingly.

------
acabal
You can download a free nicely-formatted epub of the William Cullen Bryant
translation at Standard Ebooks: [https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/homer/the-
odyssey/william-...](https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/homer/the-
odyssey/william-cullen-bryant)

This is the first transcription of Bryant's translation available online, and
it was very well regarded in its day. Like Wilson's translation, it's in
iambic pentameter. It still reads really well, considering its age!

------
keiferski
Pope’s translation (the linked one) is the best, bar none. While some may find
the language overdone or question its accuracy, I think the quality of the
writing makes up for it. Besides, unless you’re reading it in Ancient Greek, a
translation is still a translation.

------
shrubble
The purpose of reading the Iliad is so that you can then read the Odyssey, so
that you can then read the Aeneid. Dante's Inferno is in some respects
explicitly connected to the Aeneid, so we have a literary connection spanning
literally millenia...

~~~
madhadron
If we just had a good translation of the Aeneid. Fitzgerald's is okay. CS
Lewis's book one is wonderful. But Virgil's poetry carries the Latin in a way
that the subject matter really struggles to do without.

I am, however, incredibly happy that we have Clive James's translation of the
Divine Comedy.

------
ineedasername
A must-read for anyone who appreciates The Odyssey is by Nikos kazantzakis, a
Greek himself and perhaps one of the best (and least well-known) of the past
100 years. Nominated for the Nobel Prize in literature, he wrote a truly
amazing book called The Odyssey: A Modern Sequel. [0]

Even translated into English, the language is indescribably entrancing. I
won't try to do it justice here. Thematically, it picks up where Homer left
off: Odysseus, genius & trickster, covered in the blood of those who sought to
take his home & wife, is home after 20 years of war and strife with gods &
monsters. How can such a man return to a normal life?

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Kazantzakis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Kazantzakis)

------
markkat
I wanted to blog the Odyssey from Eurylochus's perspective in 2006. The next
thing I knew, I had blogged the Iliad.

[https://underodysseus.blogspot.com/2006_02_12_archive.html](https://underodysseus.blogspot.com/2006_02_12_archive.html)

I should get back to the Odyssey.

~~~
082349872349872
An Iliad trailer:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301605](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301605)

(unliked, but no one had any specific complaints about any of the
characterisations... And I'm still curious about the downthread _sensus
tactilus_ , if anyone has any pointers.)

------
dr_dshiv
From the introduction: “Scepticism has attained its culminating point with
respect to Homer, and the state of our Homeric knowledge may be described as a
free permission to believe any theory, provided we throw overboard all written
tradition, concerning the author or authors of the Iliad and Odyssey. What few
authorities exist on the subject, are summarily dismissed, although the
arguments appear to run in a circle. “This cannot be true, because it is not
true; and that is not true, because it cannot be true.” Such seems to be the
style, in which testimony upon testimony, statement upon statement, is
consigned to denial and oblivion."

~~~
madhadron
Note that was written in the 19th century and does not reflect anything like
the current state of affairs.

~~~
dr_dshiv
So, Homer was written down in 6th century Athens?

------
Jun8
Keat's reaction to reading Chapman's translation compared to the overwrought
(to him) one of Pope is famous:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_First_Looking_into_Chapman%...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_First_Looking_into_Chapman%27s_Homer)

------
paxys
I urge everyone with even a passing interest in Greek mythology to check out
_The Song of Achilles_ (2011) and then _Circe_ (2018), both by Madeline
Miller. She perfectly combines ancient stories with modern prose, and these
are two of my favorite fantasy novels.

~~~
brudgers
When my boy was tweening by reading and rereading Rick Riordan's _Percy
Jackson_ series, I enjoyed reading them too.

~~~
stergios
My kids loved reading the graphic novel version of The Odyssey by Gareth
Hinds. They continue to read it once a month or so.

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madaxe_again
I find the entire concept of an epic poem covering the events of one of the
many wars of the Bronze Age Collapse absolutely riveting - that we have such a
thing, such a record, even if through the lens of fictionalised drama, is
remarkable.

~~~
dhosek
The Iliad actually covers only a small part of the Trojan war. There's a whole
corpus of ancient literature that treats various aspects of the war. The famed
Trojan Horse incident happens between the events of the Iliad and the Odyssey
and is mentioned in the latter but the most complete accounting is in Virgil's
Aeneid.

------
sharker8
Honest question, how does one get past the idea of reading this (to say that
one did so and because one respects people who have done so and the authors
themselves) and the actual act of doing so, which can take several hours and
become on occasion dare I say it boring?

~~~
pravus
You should not be reading the Illiad to check a box. My advice is to approach
it as a serious historical work and engage it with a mindset of trying to
understand a culture that is very distant while providing clues of similarity
to modern life.

As an example, the boring part in the beginning is the names of ships and
tribes enlisted to sail to Troy. What I am thinking while reading these parts
is why this list was so important and the sheer complexity of organizing all
of it. You are talking about months if not years worth of preparation and yet
it's reduced to this almost data-like catalog where you can get the sense that
the message is: "We have a lot of friends... and we are coming."

And this isn't to say that you should hold it as Truth. What I am saying is
that this work had a profound cultural impact over the course of hundreds of
years similar to the The Bible today. It will take work to enjoy it and you
should only approach it if reading literature of this kind is of interest to
you in general.

~~~
sharker8
Great answer and compelling thanks. However, ouch, you used the B word. I also
read the Bible for the cultural relevance. I found it to be incredibly boring
as well. I do not feel better off having read it. For contrast, reading Harry
Potter (just as an example) does not enlist such a feeling of monotony and
dread. It generally just hums along and is mostly enjoyable. I have often
heard this 'canon' argument ie. If it survived this long, and was so
influential, it must be worth reading. However precisely this argument
unravels for me when reading the Bible itself in its entirety. On the
contrary, if one is like me one becomes convinced of humanity's inability to
select valuable work for lasting significance, and even more doubtful of the
Canon as a great starting point. It seems to be like a 3500 year old imdb with
a really inconsistent voting mechanism, if the analogy makes sense.

------
noiv
This content is not available in your country (de) :(

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gerbilly
For the record, Achilles wasn't 'sulking' in his tent.

There was a plague about and he was simply self isolating.

~~~
082349872349872
Μάσκα ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος?

------
dang
Anybody want to track down the year of Pope's translation?

~~~
082349872349872
1725

[https://barrelroombooks.com/wp-
content/uploads/2018/05/1725O...](https://barrelroombooks.com/wp-
content/uploads/2018/05/1725Odyssey5.jpg)

~~~
dang
Fabulous! Added. Thanks!

------
Namari
Not sure why this is here, it's brings nothing new

~~~
jmeister
The discussion here is great. Cheer up.

~~~
Namari
It may be a great discussion but it feels like you guys think HN is another
forum like reddit.

