
America’s Epidemic of Empty Churches - mitchtbaum
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/what-should-america-do-its-empty-church-buildings/576592/
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mitchtbaum
> Many of our nation’s churches can no longer afford to maintain their
> structures—6,000 to 10,000 churches die each year in America—and that number
> will likely grow... Closure and adaptive reuse often seems like the simplest
> and most responsible path. Many houses of worship sit on prime real estate,
> often in the center of towns or cities, where inventory is low... A church
> building is more than just walls and windows; it is also a sacred vessel
> that stores generations of religious memories... “We wanted to transform the
> church into a place that would draw people who might not otherwise come, and
> in Asheville, we’ve seen it break down stereotypes of what the church is,”
> Duggins said... This relatively small organization can only do so much to
> turn the tide of congregational death in America. Missional Wisdom has
> shifted its focus from one-off projects to publishing books, conducting
> seminars, and consulting with struggling churches.

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jmahyoung
Sociologists Peter Berger and Grace Davie report that “most sociologists of
religion now agree” that the secularization thesis—that religion declines as a
society becomes more modern—“ has been empirically shown to be false.” Most
striking of all are the demographic studies that predict that it is not
religious populations but secular ones that are in long-term decline. The
April 2015 Pew study projects that the percentage of atheists, agnostics, and
the religiously unaffiliated will slowly but steadily decline, from 16.4
percent of the world’s population today to 13.2 percent forty years from now.
University of London professor Eric Kaufmann, in his book Shall the Religious
Inherit the Earth?, speaks of “the crisis of secularism” and argues that the
shrinkage of secularism and liberal religion is inevitable.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
That seems at odds to the decline of religion across Europe.

UK is now majority atheist, and Ireland once devoutly catholic is far more
secular than it was. A majority voted to end the ban on abortion in Ireland
only this year. So I am baffled at what "crisis of secularism" Kaufman is
imagining.

~~~
706f6f70
I think that the factor for Europe is immigration. A majority of new Europeans
are Muslims and that is by far the fastest growing religion.

~~~
mirimir
Yes, fundamentalist Judaism and Islam do a great job at driving reproduction.
And keeping women subjugated is a huge part of it.

~~~
dang
Please keep religious flamebait and religious flamewar off Hacker News.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
mirimir
Sorry.

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elliekelly
I lived in a church converted to condos in South Boston for a few years. The
Catholic Church sold the property to developers to pay for an $85 million sex
abuse settlement. When Boston had that one winter where we got 2 feet of snow
every other day for a month and a half the ice dams were so bad it basically
rained inside every unit for the entire month of February. We all lost
everything. It turns out a 100+ year old building with a steeply pitched slate
roof is almost impossible to repair in the dead of winter on short notice.
Buildings like this seem interesting and like they have character but I would
never live in a converted church again.

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intopieces
It's important to note that Americans are far more religious than adults in
other wealthy nations [0] [http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-
tank/2018/07/31/americans-ar...](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-
tank/2018/07/31/americans-are-far-more-religious-than-adults-in-other-wealthy-
nations/). Even with this decline, the US remains a Christian nation. The
special flavor of Christianity in the US is quite adaptive, so I have little
doubt that the faith itself will endure.

~~~
13of40
> The special flavor of Christianity in the US is quite adaptive

In fact, a great part of it runs counter to the actual teachings of Christ.

~~~
indigochill
It probably says something about the state of things that from this statement
I genuinely can't tell which school of thought you're coming from, since each
one says this about the others.

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sparrish
It appears the large denominational churches are closing while
nondenominational churches are growing quickly. You can't put new wine in old
wine-skins.

[https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/how-
ma...](https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/how-many-
churches-in-america-us-nones-nondenominational.html)

~~~
sudosteph
I'm not sure the trend will hold. This is all anecdotal, but new non-
denominational churches in my area seem to start more frequently and then die
more frequently than mainline establishments, it seems that since many of them
rent instead of own their churches, and leadership isn't necessarily
restricted to those with training and education in running a ministry, they're
more likely to flounder long-term. Considering that the numbers are for total
number congregations, I don't think that the discrepancy between worshippers
is actually as harsh as its made out to be, and if it is, I think we'll
actually see a trend back towards more community-oriented mainline or even
catholicism as worshippers get disillusioned by the drama / lack of structure
that a larger portion of non-denoms undeniably struggle with.

But this is based on just infrequent personal experiences with like 4
different non-denoms in the suburban South, ranging from "conference room at 2
star airport hotel" to "megachurch stadium so full we watched the service in
an overflow room in the same venue". In all cases the people who invited me
did not stay very long as attendees. I may be dramatically underestimating
their popularity/longevity in more rural spots though.

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pnathan
The church I attend these days is doing this sort of "invite the community in
during the week" approach, and being fairly successful at it, from what I can
tell. There are a lot of dynamics going on there; I don't think it'd work
everywhere. But definitely there's something to the idea, and worth bringing
up in your congregational context if collapse is in the offing.

~~~
chrisweekly
There's something poignant about the notion that a church, faced with "death",
may find new life by welcoming the local community... which seems to me to be
the raison d'etre for a church in the first place.

~~~
barry-cotter
As an atheist I’m sympathetic but that’s not the raison d’être for a Church
and never has been. It’s about bringing people to God.

~~~
mschaef
> It’s about bringing people to God.

True enough, but the community ('fellowship') aspect of the faith is
essential.

Maybe I'm missing it, but it also seems to be something that's missing in more
secular world views.

~~~
bonesss
Book clubs, talk therapy 'support' groups, athletics, travel associations,
charities, small crop coops... The secular "world view" is replete with
fellowship, collective action, and community. Heck, "community centers"...

Though, lacking a unifying shared habit of proscribed worship at a single
place those things tend to be interest, activity, or goal based.

~~~
mschaef
> those things tend to be interest, activity, or goal based.

I think that's a more significant distinction than it might appear, mainly
because it seems to imply a narrower and more disjoint view of community than
you might expect from an institution like a Church (or Synagogue, Mosque,
etc.)

Just to illustrate, the church I attend has the usual Sunday services, and
it's explicitly a whole-family affair. This includes the kids, for which there
are age appropriate breakouts during the service. There's also a breakout of
sorts for people with special concerns around illness, death, and other
particular needs.

After the service, there's another community coffee-hour/lunch of sorts where
people get together and are just able to hang out a bit. The kids usually wind
up on the playground. There's also a deliberate program after the service to
physically reach out to people that were unable to attend due to illness or
infirmity. This is not to mention the monthly 'everyone invited' community
dinners, the quarterly hosting of several homeless families on church grounds,
the food pantry run by the church several times a week...

Setting aside the religiosity of it all, the point I'm trying to make is that
the organization goes out of its way to be inclusive in a relevant way to a
wide spectrum of the community. There's explicitly something for the young,
the old, the infirm, people that aren't members of the church...

It's harder to see how the more goal-oriented organizations you mention can
really address that broad a definition of 'community'. I get how you can use a
portfolio of involvement in those groups to get everybody in a family involved
in something, but not necessarily how they'd be involved _together_.... which
is important.

For whatever it's worth, I can easily see how something like this _could_ be
assembled outside of religion.... I'm just hard pressed to point out examples
where's it's actually happening at all (much less in a way that would
compensate for the losses in religious institutions.)

~~~
chrisweekly
Your church sounds like it's at less risk of "death" than the ones turning to
community embrace as an act of desperation.

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partiallypro
I think there are two things going on:

a) People are becoming less religious b) People are leaving smaller churches
for much larger churches that are non-denominational.

Smaller churches are more conservative and more political, people seem to be
burned out on politics and don't really want it as something in their face on
Sunday. You couple that with natural shifts in demographics and that
essentially explains a lot of what is happening. I suspect once the millennial
generation has more kids, church going will tick back up.

~~~
jimmy1
c) "yoloculture" (as I like to call it) greatly emphasis the self as the key
virtue, hence the millennial and younger can't be bothered sacrificing "Sunday
Funday" to attend an inconvenient service at 9 in the morning.

Simultaneously, The rock concert megachurches with cult of personality pastors
and have Starbucks inside them with much later start times and emphasize a
message of self empowerment with gospel-y sounding words, however, seem to be
thriving.

~~~
woodruffw
The only thing more constant than the darned kids is people complaining about
the darned kids.

"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think
of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They
are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what
passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are
forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."

Peter the Hermit.

~~~
rootusrootus
Wasn't he long dead by 1274?

In any case, I love the quote. Just goes to show how timeless the generational
bashing is.

~~~
jimmy1
I certainly agree older folk yelling at younger whippersnappers is a constant,
but turn it on it's head for a moment: when it happens the other way around,
no one questions it. "It's the Boomer's fault!" Millennial's proclaim, and
every culture mag now runs a similar story.

There is something to be said for the wisdom of elders. Yes we should discard
the grumpy old complaining because of change, but are we to really say all the
complaints are invalid just because "it's always been done?"

I think of other societies, primarily Asian, that have deep respect for the
thoughts and opinions of their elders. I think of how almost every faith,
including the three major abrahamic religions explicity command followers to
honor thy mother and thy father (which is generalized to honor your elders).
Yet in this country, and most western countries, the fad is to kick the old
out as soon as you can! "Out with the old, in with the new! Pay no mind to old
people's grumbling! Their wisdom is invalided! Their opinions on culture and
where society is headed is invalid!" \-- And one can only wonder, is this why
history is doomed to repeat itself over and over again?

We blow off what the "geezers" are telling us "Psh! Get with the times old
man, things are different now!"

In my opinion, humanity hasn't changed much in the past couple thousand years.
We would do better to listen to some more grumblings of the geezers. Maybe
getting off a lawn or two wouldn't be so bad after all.

~~~
rootusrootus
I wouldn't necessarily say nobody questions it, but I agree that it is more
socially acceptable to blame the boomers. But... it's not exactly unpopular to
malign millenials, either.

Personally if you gripe to me about boomers too much I will probably tell you
to quit bitching and take some responsibility. In particular if you are young,
I will remind you that you have more voters in your cohort than boomers do, so
not only should you quit bitching, you should direct that energy to getting
your fellow young'uns to go out and vote. After all, most of the consequences
of today's politics will be borne by the young.

I also think that as much wisdom as their may be in old people, there are lots
and lots and lots of ignorant jerks who aren't worth the powder to blow 'em
up. Same for young people. Conversely, I've met some teenagers with more
innate wisdom than most people ever get in their whole life.

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onyva
Here’s an idea: turn churches, mosques and synagogues into cooperative worship
centers and kill two birds.

“God” only knows there’s a lot of work that needs to done to repair the bad
rap organized religion is getting lately: from children abuse in the Catholic
Church, megachurch scams, subversive terror organizations and states
repurposing Islam, Christian white nationalism, Israel’s expanding theocracy
... )

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aswanson
What happens to a society when it loses communal organizations and faith, and
becomes increasingly atomized? Is this good or bad?

~~~
krapp
We don't need faith in God to have a community, only faith in one another. The
premise that community cannot exist without a religious basis is a false one.

~~~
706f6f70
I would argue that this would be a new event in human history. I can't think
of a single major civilization that was not religious in some capacity.

~~~
krapp
I liken this event to the Enlightenment, when societies began to view religion
as something which could be separated from science, scholarship and law, as
the concept of "secularity" emerged. Religion still exists in some capacity,
obviously the US is very much a "christian nation," but _generally_ people are
moving away from an explicitly orthodox, rigidly dogmatic, supernaturalist
interpretation of religion.

A literate society no longer needs someone standing at a pulpit telling them
what the Bible says, nor should an educated society believe that humans were
literally molded out of clay in the Garden of Eden. As societies change,
religion must also change because religion is an expression of society.

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r0m4n0
One of my favorite roller skating spots is in a converted church.
[https://youtu.be/uWSTlDXDNXk](https://youtu.be/uWSTlDXDNXk)

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zachguo
Silicon Valley Season 5 Episode 4

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joe_the_user
Aside from the religion issue,

This seems like a logical result of increasing land values and the advance of
capitalist relations. Owning a building that is used one a day a week and
empty otherwise is overall quite wasteful. A more efficient use of capital is
to rent a hall for the times one actually uses the space - this is what I see
modern "megachurches" doing.

~~~
sudosteph
If a church is only used 1 day a week, someone is doing something wrong. The
mid-sized church I attended growing up had

\- AA meetings hosted daily \- choir & music groups meeting on weekdays \-
after school youth groups \- book clubs \- A small library for free use \-
counseling \- volunteer events \- would bus homeless people in once a week and
feed and shelter them

The community charity aspect is honestly the only reason to even let churches
exist tax free. Those megachurches renting theaters and collecting mad cash
really shouldn't meet the criteria to be tax exempt.

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rjplatte
I forget where I read the study, but it was along the lines of our brains
being hardwired to believe in a higher power, be it reason or god. I doubt
this will change, especially in a country as genetically Christian as the US.

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torgian
I’ve had nothing great to say about churches and services for a long time now.
Part of it is due to my upbringing. Ever since I escaped the stranglehold that
is religion and Christianity, I see church as a place where cults hang out.

