
Echolocation in blind people reveals the brain’s adaptive powers - happy-go-lucky
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/10/echolocation-blind-people-reveals-brain-s-adaptive-powers
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DubiousPusher
Legally blind person here. I've followed these claims for a while and am very
interested in them. I was very excited when I first heard about this phenomena
but quickly became skeptical when I couldn't find any serious research of it.
Other than some case reports and a few people on the internet claiming they
could do this. Also the near constant resurgence of Daniel Kish every time
someone writes about this gives it kind of cult like vibe.

Honestly, the reporting has been of a somewhat offensive variety. Particularly
an NPR article and podcast a few years back. The reporting was like, "you'll
never believe what this blind person can do! They ride a bike!"

Which of course we can. A completely blind person could absolutely learn to
ride a bike, especially in a place they knew was safe and had repeat access
to. The article failed utterly to gauge the actual day to day impact this
supposed echolocation had. That's the true way to judge if a piece of
equipment or technique is helpful to a disabled person. What does it do for
them at their worst not in their most well known and optimal setting. I don't
need my monocular at any of the street crossings near my home. I know their
timings and patterns like my morning routine.

Even worse the article blaimed the failure of this technique to catch on upon
orientation and mobility experts who assist blind people in learning to
navigate the world.

I've worked with quite a few of these folks and the idea of suppressing
effective behavior to better fit in is super outmoded. Even in the 90s in the
rural state I grew up in that would not have been tolerated. If anything the
low blind and low vision folks themselves cares far more about whether they
stood out than the mobility experts did.

Anyway, the dearth of significant research, the seeming inability to spread it
widely through the mobility and orientation community and its near total
revolution around the claims of Kish leave it feeling a bit suspicious. I hope
it's real and can help a lot of people by becoming standard education for
blind and low vision but I'm not holding my breath.

~~~
exDM69
I have normal eyesight but I have practiced echolocation for fun. I can gain
some situational awareness and navigate familiar spaces with eyes closed.

What you should hear is similar to tweaking a reverb effect in an audio
software. With repeated practice you will learn the difference in the tone of
a hard object and a soft object or an object near or far. In audio engineering
terms, you're trying to measure the impulse response of the room around you.

The important bit is generating sharp impulse clicks to listen to. You can
make clicks with your mouth but your tongue will get tired soon. You can also
try a handheld clicker like used in behavioral conditioning for dogs. I try to
make a directional sound pointed left or right.

I saw a documentary about echolocation training, and they started with an
assistant holding a glass piece around the student and the student trying to
guess where it is.

Other things you could try is navigating a familiar space with white noise
from a sound system to understand how you subconsciously listen to echoes of
your feet, etc.

This is absolutely something you can learn by simple practice, there is no
magic to it.

~~~
DubiousPusher
The question is not whether people can infer some information from their
environment using sound. That is very clearly the case. As most people will
know from personal experience by detecting the presence or absence of nearby
walls due to the presence or absence of ambient echo.

The question is whether the claims of "expert" echo locators can be verified
and whether it would be a worthwhile pursuit to standardize and teach this
technique to blind and low vision persons.

I could attempt to learn this technique but I have enough vision that I'm
generally not in need of it especially with the application of current
compensations. I could attempt to learn it for personal verification reasons
but I would then be just another anecdote and that's not really what I
consider suitable evidence for validation.

~~~
exDM69
It might be that reaching expert level in human echolocation requires some
"musical talent" to hear the differences.

The Wikipedia article on human echolocation has some links to research groups
and programs, maybe their publications have some of the information you are
looking for.

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miki123211
Totally blind person here. I haven't used echolocation much in my life, except
for the standard wall/door detection tricks, of course. I've met a very small
number of people who do it successfully, though. One guy I know is a near
expert. He lost his sight like 4 years ago and he alrady learned it on a
pretty advanced level. He taught us to detect things like glasses on a table
and tell where they are. The class was only like 3, 4 hours though, so I guess
it's just the tip of an iceberg.

~~~
elliekelly
The article mentions that echolocation is a way the brain adapts in some blind
people but your comment seems like echolocation is at least partially learned
skill.

Since you’ve taken a class on it I’d be curious to know whether you got the
sense it’s something most people could learn if they wanted to spend the
time/effort? Or does it seem like the sort of thing that some people just seem
to pick up “naturally”?

~~~
miki123211
The things he tried to teach us could be done by most students at least semi-
reliably. I think practice helps here, but talent helps too, just like with
learning to play a musical instrument. There are people for whom it comes
easily, but it seems other people can be taught too. This is all anecdotal
evidence, though.

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dwoozle
It’s amazing how much information we ignore. I used to volunteer at a nursing
home and I was pushing a blind lady down the hall and she said “this room is
mine.” I asked her “how did you know?” And she explained that she could hear
the recessed doorways (and the difference between open doors and closed ones)
as we passed them, and knew that hers was the 11th door. She told me I could
do it myself. I thought “bullshit, this is some magic power for blind people”
but when I just closed my eyes and focused on it, it’s completely easy. Your
footstep’s echo off a closed door is completely different than hallway. It
took me literally no practice, I could do it on the first try.

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syllable_studio
A few years ago, I was very inspired by Daniel Kish and others who use
echolocation. So I started a side project called Project Sonorous. Sonorous
was a prototype to explore combining AR with echolocation and 3D audio. This
allows you to translate visual spatial information into echolocation-like
audio cues through headphones.

I would still love to work on this idea in the future. But it would require a
lot of funding and advanced technology (similar to that used by self-driving
cars.)

[https://blog.syllablehq.com/project-sonorous-a-proposed-
navi...](https://blog.syllablehq.com/project-sonorous-a-proposed-navigation-
tool-for-the-visually-impaired/)

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JoeAltmaier
Strange idea, that blind people have some special power here. Any human brain
has sophisticated techniques for locating the sources and nature of
environmental sounds.

Just close your eyes, have somebody stand behind you and put a hand up to your
right or left ear, 8 inches away. You can instantly tell where their hand is.
Just from the change in the way environmental sounds reach your head.

Did you try it?

~~~
eth0up
Not strange so much as a matter of contrast in circumstantial demand and
acclimation, which must be measurably different for the blind vs hobbyist.
James Nestor, in his time with Bushway, was able to accomplish echolocation
feats that astonished him. Though I don't think he ever argued that the
ability is equal for the blind and seeing, he did seem to conclude that the
ability isn't restricted to the blind. I expect it would require a rare and
great dedication for the dilettante to compete with a serious full-timer, in
any skill. Functional blindness is a very formidable skill, one that very few
would (could?) optionally practice full time.

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flimflamm
As a kid when playing blindfolded trying to catch others I used this (echo
location) all the time to avoid bumping to walls. Nothing in it is something
which would be unique for blind people.

