
Dutch app gives elderly pedestrians extra crossing time at traffic lights - kawera
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/jul/12/dutch-app-elderly-hack-pedestrian-crossings
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beached_whale
At least in Ontario, Canada you have as much time as you need to make forward
progress once you legally enter the intersection. Or something like that. But
the light is there to indicate it is allowed to enter, not how long you have.

~~~
dghughes
My point of view is sure you as a pedestrian have a legal right but if you get
hit and are killed there is no point in being right but dead.

I get my ass out of the way asap.

~~~
leviathan
In Canada (Quebec) people are generally more relaxed and drivers will wait for
pedestrians even if it means they miss their light.

~~~
anbotero
I'm not saying I'm a golden egg among rotten ones here in my country,
Colombia, but I have 20 or so (conscious) years of my life 1) not running to
reach my destination and 2) being relaxed most of the time without the need of
drugs or anything. It seems so normal for me not being rushed, waiting for the
lights when I'm driving or walking, crossing the street using designated
intersections.

In any case, I've measured things as simple as how long it takes for me to
reach bus station from work place, and I've sometimes reached it sooner than
some people I see running. I know it sounds crazy, but some times they forget
to buy the ticket, or they get blocked by slow people taking ALL the road
(three horizontally-aligned people in a four tops road), while I keep my pace.

I'd wish people had less worries in their life (we all have our problems and
demons), and could keep their peace of mind without worrying about everything
or having OCD or something.

Anyways, this sounds amazing.

~~~
ambivalents
Reminds me of a story by Derek Sivers [0] on the marginal time savings of
biking at an all-out sprint pace vs. a more moderate (and more enjoyable)
pace. A sprint gave him only a 4% time boost, whereas, as he puts it, "I could
just take it easy, and get 96% of the results."

[0] [https://sivers.org/relax](https://sivers.org/relax)

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romanpoet
This has been done in Singapore for years.

[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10108869359209909&se...](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10108869359209909&set=a.698263527199.2476357.6803277&type=3&theater)

~~~
agrahul
I was curious how long it's been around, and did some digging. It seems to
have been launched in 2009[1] and greatly expanded between 2011 and 2013[2].

[1]
[https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/page.aspx?c=2&id=3afz2r6kt6...](https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/page.aspx?c=2&id=3afz2r6kt67606vuscj0akd890h806x0zmb0y1ntv2vokwha7n)

[2]
[https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/default.aspx?scr=yes&keywor...](https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/default.aspx?scr=yes&keyword=Green%20Man%20Plus%20\(GMP\))

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donretag
How many elderly people actually have smart phones? The article said they had
very few users, but blamed it on unwary users. Of the 70+ year old people that
I know, most do not even have a dumb phone, let alone a smart phone.

~~~
codyogden
I look at innovative services/apps that target the elderly as something that
may not be as relevant to the current elderly generation, but in 10-20 years
when more tech-savvy people have aged there will be a huge need for services
like this. Elderly people in even 10 years from now will own smart phones.

~~~
almostarockstar
I totally agree. It's about fixing problems ahead of time. The only problem is
that without a drive now, the tech could disappear, and when it finally does
become relevant, an argument might be made that "it didn't work before, so
it's not going to work now".

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bmsleight_
From an UK perspective, their crossing are way to wide. If you have a shorter
crossing, the crossing is less of a factor, (also shorter total cycle times).

The problem, is that you holding up all the other traffic for one pedestrians.
Get the crossing length correct, have the elderly person cross at the start of
the green then the time is sufficient.

Also changing the timing as one junction intermittently makes the coordination
between set of traffic signals harder and can be big disbelief.

Notwithstanding, the wide junctions allow more space for cyclists.

<Disclaimer>: Dynniq sometime customer sand once-upon-a-time subcontractor
</Disclaimer>

~~~
devindotcom
Considerably easier to do this than rebuild the cities with narrower streets,
though. If only you could do cement with a responsive layout...

~~~
bmsleight_
You can split the crossing, so that the pedestrian does not have to cross the
Northbound and Southbound at the same time.

~~~
sergers
We have that here but not everywhere.

There is a stop at the median (which would require median) for 4+ lanes. U
have to push the button again in the middle.

Also have some that activate the whole crosswalk, but u can stop at middle of
u think u don't have enough time, can push button for the remainder of trip

What I hate more than slow people, fast people and people on bicycles.

I cringe each time someone decides to run across when everyone is already
focused on the people already walking at normal pace to exit the crosswalk.

Super dangerous.

I have clipped a guy on a bicycle(just bumped rear tire, hardly any damage and
cyclist was fine), and almost hit 2 kids and adult ( all different instances)

~~~
bmsleight_
Countdown helps. Traffic Signals in London, an amber numerical countdown
display, indicating to pedestrians the time remaining to cross the road. This
discourages pedestrians and cyclists to start to cross.

~~~
vkou
Unfortunately, it also encourages drivers to gun it when there's only a few
seconds left on the countdown ("I still have seconds to get through the
intersection!") - which increases the number of cars running red lights.

~~~
oakesm9
The countdown is only shown when the pedestrian crossing is on green. Drivers
don't get a countdown on their green signal. Most also have a plastic shield
around the countdown so you can't see it from where the driver is sitting to
avoid people preempting the signal change.

~~~
vkou
This works on crosswalk-style crossings, but not on 4-way intersections.

~~~
bmsleight_
Incorrect, It is used in London on thousands of junctions, hundred of 4-way
intersections.

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Malic
It's not quite the same thing but I can verify that certain Scandinavian
countries really expect you to "get a move on" when crossing the street. There
isn't enough time to walk across crosswalks in Denmark, for example, if you
don't have some spring in your step.

~~~
Fifer82
Is that not OK? In the UK I get the impression you can trundle along at any
speed and assume the people in the cars have the decency not to mow you down
until their lane is free even if the green man is red now.

Jay-Walking though is crazy as a law. I prefer NOT to use traffic lights where
traffic allows.

~~~
bmsleight_
Well in UK there is no Jay-Walking Law (Pedestrians have right of way).

The crossing time is set at 1.2 m/s, to complete the crossing from the end of
the Green.

~~~
0xffff2
>Well in UK there is no Jay-Walking Law (Pedestrians have right of way).

In California at least, pedestrians have the right of way, but Jay-walking is
still illegal.

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Nanite
Slightly of topic: A while a go I visited South Korea for the first time, and
got weird looks whenever I pushed the button at crosswalks, that and the
button talked back...Next day I'm again at a crossing with our Korean client
and push the button, she starts laughing and tells me: I had no idea your were
blind :) Turns out the button only calls out when it's safe to cross.

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laythea
If the app has the ability to mess with the traffic light timings, what is
stopping hackers?

~~~
fredley
Hopefully the publicly exposed API call into the traffic light network is "I
am old, at [x]", not "Set traffic light time to [n] at [x]". Hopefully.

~~~
laythea
I'm sure at least as much effort will be placed, as that of automation in cars
:)

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jtl999
> Another version detects visually impaired pedestrians and activates the
> ticking sounds that tell them whether the light is red or green.

As a visually impaired person I think the ticking sound should be on all the
time at traffic lights. When I visited Madrid and Barcelona recently that was
the way they handled it.

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filereaper
I think this is a social problem, not a technological one. If there's an
elderly person taking longer to cross, stop and wait, or help them out. I
haven't read of any significant road-rage caused by elderly taking too long to
cross traffic signals.

We've been doing this since cars became mainstream, not really sure why we
need to add an app and sync the traffic system with this app.

Is there really a problem here to solve?

~~~
Fomite
A six-land dual carriageway means that there's definite possibilities that
drivers won't see him, and are traveling at a speed where a sudden stop is
actively dangerous.

We solved this with crosswalks. Now all we're doing is adding dynamic timing
based on pedestrian movement.

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throwaway2016a
Interestingly, I often have the opposite problem here. The walk light turns on
and I'm done crossing the street a good 45+ seconds before it actually lets
traffic go. It would be nice if it somehow knew no one else was waiting to
cross and let traffic go.

Of (not that I would ever do this) someone sees an opportunity and jay-walks
but the walk light still turns on because they also pressed the button.

~~~
drewg123
When I would walk to/from work in Mountain View, I'd often jaywalk because it
would be far less disturbing to traffic than crossing a crosswalk.

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Rjevski
I wonder how they're gonna deal with abuse. What's stopping an idiot from
flooding every single light with requests and making them slower than default,
disrupting the entire traffic?

Why couldn't it be a physical button on the traffic light itself instead of an
app? Seems easier to use and would limit abuse to a single location at a time.

~~~
bmsleight_
Similar apps I seen, only connect via bluetooth to light not general internet.
Making flooding much harder.

~~~
xkcd-sucks
Old people's tech-using skills and Bluetooth's reliability... a match made in
heaven

~~~
bmsleight_
Maybe that why only 10 people used it.

<quote>Most potential users are elderly and often wary of relying on
unfamiliar technology. “We had to approach them one-on-one and show them how
the app worked on their phones. Once we did that they were keen to get
involved, but the barrier was very high. We held a presentation and put an
advert in a local newspaper with a circulation of 2,000 and 10 people came
forward.”</quote>

~~~
chipperyman573
10 people responding to an ad seen by 2000 is actually a decent success rate.
Print ads aren't very good for anything other than keeping the company in the
front of the reader's mind. They're great for companies like big chains ("Next
time you want fast food, come check out the new BigMac for just $x.xx"), but
not for people trying to elicit specific actions immediately ("Download this
app now for increased walk times")

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tetraodonpuffer
couldn't we simply have crosswalks that have 3 buttons for short (bike) medium
(normal walking) long (need extra time)? Seems like it would be cheaper and
more accessible than an app.

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anigbrowl
This is wonderful. Light timing where I live is appalling and while I'm a fast
walker it must be terrifying for elderly/disabled people. Quite a lot of
American city infrastructure is really hostile to pedestrians.

~~~
dublinben
Even better would be to just fix the light timing, and make the roads safer
for all pedestrians, not just those using this app. This is a blatant band-aid
on a more significant problem.

~~~
bmsleight_
Fixing the light timing is harder than it sounds. Too long for pedestrians
(When there is no demand and lots of wasted time), encourages drivers to not
fully comply with the signals. At least with this app, it minimised the
extended crossing time to only when needed. The drivers can then see the
mobility impaired pedestrian crossing and confidence remains with the timing.

~~~
DanBC
Use a puffin crossing. [http://www.driving-school-
beckenham.co.uk/pedestriancrossing...](http://www.driving-school-
beckenham.co.uk/pedestriancrossings.html)

~~~
bmsleight_
Puffins are good, but detection is always hard and central co-ordination is
reduced.

How about Countdown at junction or at standalone PedX ?
[http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/4572.html](http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/4572.html)

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jbms
A startup in Scotland lets disabled users press the cross button by tapping an
app on their phone. Conceivably the app could tell from movement whether the
person was crossed before communicating it's safe to let cars go again.

[https://neatebox.com/local-authority/](https://neatebox.com/local-authority/)

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paulcole
If anything it should give less time to encourage a more active elderly
population.

