
On Interviewing as a Junior Dev - mlrtime
http://lizmrush.com/on-interviewing/
======
_RPM
> I did a code challenge that involved ranking soccer teams, and while going
> over the code a developer at the company asked me if I needed the rules of
> the game explained to me. While it's a good thing to make sure the candidate
> understands what the problem is, companies need to be aware that these
> things carry extra cultural baggage and asking a female candidate if they
> understand a basic sports rule (or any other male dominated theme) comes
> across as belittling and sexist.

As a male, I don't even know the rules of soccer, so I would have gladly
wanted to hear the rules of the game so I could implement the solution
correctly.

~~~
tomlock
Unfortunately, our culture generally views sport as a male domain. While you
and I are probably aware that there's nothing intrinsically "male" about
sport, it can feel a little weird for someone to treat you as if your
understanding is aligned with the gendered assumption. Anyone, if they don't
understand the rules of the game, could still ask what they are. Would you
feel weird if someone assumed you knew the rules because you were a man? How
could you tell if they assumed that because you were a man, or because of some
other reason?

I think the point the developer is trying to make is that all this could be
avoided by using another context in the challenge. Not using a different
challenge is at least somewhat displaying that they didn't think how this
situation might make someone feel.

~~~
Perdition
>Not using a different challenge

Like what?

Even something like maths can be claimed to be "viewed generally as a male
domain". And once you start accounting for ethnicity and social background I
think you would find it incredibly difficult to come up with something that
had no possibly offensive cultural baggage.

Actually, maybe the challenge could be to design a challenge that was neutral.

P.S. Considering soccer's limited popularity in the US I doubt most candidates
would know the rules.

~~~
tomlock
We may very well find it very difficult to come up with something that has no
possibly offensive cultural baggage. Do you think soccer was one where someone
made even an attempt to mitigate that baggage?

~~~
Perdition
Possibly, as soccer isn't exactly a premier sport in the US. If it was
American football, baseball, or basketball (with which the average American
male is more familiar) I think the authors point would be stronger.

I could make an argument that using a sport which has massive popularity
outside Western European culture is a sign that the interviewer was thinking
about diversity.

Sports are good candidates for these challenges as they have reasonably
complex rule, so it isn't necessarily that the interviewer was just selecting
something they liked.

------
peteretep
That's a pretty impressive starting salary range for a junior.

a) You must have interviewed exceptionally well, and be in practice "not
really" a junior (which would imply Ada are doing an incredible job, and is
freakin' awesome), or be bringing to bear some other skills

and/or

b) Salary range where you are is broken

You said the range you got offered was $75-$95, which in Great British Pounds
is £47-£60,000, and I've absolutely no reason to doubt you. BUT: you can get a
reasonable senior developer in the most expensive city in the world (London)
for £60,000.

~~~
xixixao
This is purely UK vs US difference: From my experience, companies in the US
can pay over $100k to fresh graduates. The same companies pay 30% less in the
UK. So the $95k translates to $40k, which is what you'd expect.

~~~
nandemo
I'd say it's US vs rest-of-the-world difference.

I recently applied to a senior dev position at the Tokyo branch of a certain
American company, which shall remain nameless. They pay 120~160k in the US.
They offered me 60k.

~~~
deciplex
I don't think you can lump Tokyo in with the rest of "not-the-US", really,
because it's particularly bad here IMO, moreso than mostly anywhere else in
the developed world. The market is shallow and the hiring managers are
generally clueless. If you're a software developer, living in Japan is bad for
your career and probably your health.

~~~
nandemo
It could be so, but I doubt it. From talking to Europeans here, and reading
about it on the net, after-tax salaries in most of Northern Europe and France
are roughly on par with Japan, taking into account the differences in cost of
living. Southern Europe is somewhat worse. Note that tax rates in Europe are
considerably higher than in Japan. And rent in places like Paris and London is
probably more expensive than Tokyo.

Developer salaries in Canada and Australia seem to be better, though they
still aren't on par with the US.

------
pkaye
On rescheduling, the candidate should also be considerate of the interviewer.
Too many times, candidates have scheduled a interview for early morning
(because they don't want to take time off from their current job) then while
I'm driving to work early, call 20 minutes before to say they are "sick" and
cancel. If you feel you are getting sick, try to cancel much earlier so as not
to inconvenience others.

------
pookieinc
This article was interesting to read from my standpoint. I'm currently
unemployed and am currently looking for a jr. dev position as well.

Background: Received CS degree, have worked for 3 years as a full-stack
developer internationally with lots of code written, and am now looking in the
Bay Area for front-end developer position.

> Red Flag 1: Asking me to dedicate over ten hours to a code challenge before
> meeting anyone on the team. Relatedly, the code challenge not having
> anything to do with the role for which I am applying or the skills I would
> be using on the job.

Along the same lines, I've now worked on around 6 coding challenges (2 of
which I would say had nothing to do with front-end development) and after
spending somewhere between 4-10+ of my time, I've gone from the mentality of
"coding challenges are good because I can learn from them" to "... another
one? I need money, not more work." While coding challenges are a good way of
gauging one's skill level, asking for a coding challenge that will take longer
than a 2-3 hours should not be required, mainly with regard to the respect of
the developer looking for the job, as well as to the company and their time to
check it. I've received (and completed) challenges that took over a day to
complete. Worst of all is when you submit it and you receive a "Sorry, we have
decided to pursue other candidates response" without working with you to
understand where your code could be strengthened.

> Green Flag 3: Tailoring the interview process to the candidate. When I feel
> that there is an attempt to ensure that there is a good mutual fit for a
> role in a company, I have a much more positive view on the company and their
> hiring practices.

I just wanted to emphasize this Green Flag.

The other important item I found surprisingly relatable was this:

> And of course, as they always say, it's really about who you know and using
> those connections.

Start-ups aside, I've found it incredible difficult to get on the radar of
bigger companies, when it comes to applying from their site. I can understand
hundreds or more are applying and they may not be able to get back to everyone
and that's understandable, I just didn't realize how emphasized connections
were. The only interviews I've had with bigger companies (i.e.
Facebook/Google, etc.) have been through connections. Other companies w/o
connections... well I didn't get past the coding challenge to have that
interview.

~~~
trentmb
I don't know how to get on the radar of any companies. I'd love to be given a
coding challenge.

Background: Received Math degree this past summer, 0 years as a full-stack
developer. I had supporting coursework in CS, so I'm not completely unfamiliar
with programming. All I want is an entry level job...

~~~
gedrap
You should change your attitude a bit. it sounds like you are desperate for a
job, while you should be thinking that you need a job which would be mutually
beneficial for both sides. The attitude helps a lot in various stages.

You can start by writing some toy application. Simple blog platform is a
classic example. Push it to github. Bonus points if you have multiple
applications using different languages/frameworks, that shows that you are not
one of the devs that learn one thing and use it for the rest of the life.

Good luck.

------
Yizahi
Some thoughts about red flags in the article:

"Red Flag 3" is actually a simple fail of the recruiter (uncommon situation,
need to thinks that +1 day is not enough etc.). This doesn't convey any
information at all whether company is good or bad.

"Red Flag 4" is actually a Green Flag. F __* open spaces! You are a developer,
not a manager.

"Red Flag 5" also doesn't convey any useful information except that company
has typical, average in the industry hiring process. This won't matter at all
after I'll get hired.

------
forrestthewoods
$95,000 for someone with 6 months school + 6 month internship is fucking
insane. Holy shit!

~~~
e12e
If you subscribe to the idea that colleges/universities teaches how to think -
and how to study, and not a (set of) subject, she has a BS+1 year of
programming specialization.

~~~
sqrt17
If you look at Nordstrom's interviewing site (linked in the article), you see
that they require people to have some technical background but also general
communication skills. All the talk about "t-shaped" people boils down to the
fact that in their line of work, understanding requirements (including non-
technical descriptions given by a customer) is a non-negotiable requirement of
the job, whereas purely technical excellence isn't as useful to them.

In that sense, having good communication skills and some programming
experience, on top of being good at "getting stuff done" is better than what
they'd get out of an average CS graduate. Put in other terms, current CS
curricula don't serve these companies well, because they yield people who are
deeply technical, but bring neither good communication skills nor necessarily
familiarity with the tools used by them.

------
throwaway9121
You'd have to be crazy to hire this person. Let's check the boxes.

✓ Post dripping with entitlement

✓ Arrogantly rejects companies for reasons such as being located an an unhip
suburb

✓ Finds offense in almost anything that happens in an interview

✓ Degree in Ethnography

✓ 6 month feminist coding bootcamp

✓ 6 month failed internship

✓ Fluffed up github with virtually no actual code

The lines of code to sexual harassment lawsuits/internet shitstorms isn't
going to be good with this one.

~~~
tomlock
If you remove the "6 month feminist coding bootcamp" line, this post could be
mistaken for a summary of the career of a young Steve Jobs. Hopefully this
developer has found a company where she isn't harassed by sneering bros, and
then actually has the time to write some code.

~~~
shamney
would you really want to hire a young steve jobs for a junior software
developer position?!

~~~
tomlock
He was widely considered a genius so I think he could do at least alright in
the role :)

------
mikecmpbll
I had to stop halfway through because the pretentiousness was overbearing.

~~~
neelborooah
Although she did end up with good results, I too felt that her attitude was a
tad too pretentious. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
It didn't seem pretentious so much as unfairly entitled and demanding, and
potentially insensitive to the needs and interests of possible co-workers.

But it's interesting to watch someone coming at it from that angle, instead of
the usual 'give employers anything they want' view.

------
RestlessMind
>... when someone at a very early stage startup approached me....

> When the developer mentioned her pregnancy as a negative to her potential
> employment, I immediately froze up and didn’t know how to handle the
> situation. It felt like I was supposed to agree that she might not be as
> dedicated or invested in the role because of her status as a mother.

I have a genuine question about this - "very early stage startups" seem to be
the kind of places where every single employee can make or break the company.
Are pregnant women a really right fit for such setting? I am a father myself
and after watching my wife over the last few years of her pregnancy +
motherhood, I can see the following reasons where pregnant women and an early
stage startup can be a bad mismatch:

1\. Women are allowed to take 15-17 weeks of leave in CA by law (2-4 weeks
before delivery, 13 weeks after). If one of your employee is unavailable for
~4 months, won't that affect an early stage startup?

2\. Early stage companies seem to be a high stress environment (my first hand
experience, maybe anecdotal), where as pregnant women / new moms are advised
rest (or at least avoid stress).

I might have my own startup one day, when I can come across candidates who are
pregnant. So it would be good to know if there is any flaw in my thinking, or
if I have missed anything.

------
gedrap
What I sometimes don't understand, is the emphasis on being a female / ethnic
minority like in this post.

Sure, some people are intolerant, but if you go with 'maybe: being the only
female / minority' it gives me a feeling that you expect some special
treatment because of your gender or ethnicity.

It gives me a feeling that it is an employee who is a potential liability
(e.g. the paragraph about sports 'asking a female candidate if they understand
a basic sports rule (or any other male dominated theme) comes across as
belittling and sexist'). Do I want a potential law suit or bad press because
maybe some one didn't invite her to watch a football game after work or
anything like that? Emmm that's a bit of risk.

I understand that sometimes it's tough to be in a minority but it doesn't mean
you need to put so much emphasis on it. Just calm down and down assume people
are racist by default. Because they are not.

~~~
Ntrails
People basically are racist by default. We fear the different, the other, we
seem to be wired that way. Society is training us to be tolerant, it is
training us to be better.

Secondly, if your happiness in the place you spend half your waking hours is
contingent on the people there not making you feel
marginalised/belittled/stupid/irrelevant/worthless, and you have had bad
experiences previously, I think it's reasonable for a key decision parameter
to be "do I think the employees here are better than that"

------
xiaoma
>Because Hsing-Hui and I gave our first conference talk in August, we
mentioned during our talk that we'd be looking for jobs in October.

Wat? How the heck did she give tech conference talks before landing even a
junior dev job? It sounds to me like she had some significant advantage most
people trying to break into the industry don't.

~~~
jacalata
She attended a year long coding boot camp. Many of the boot camps are very
proactive about getting their students involved in meet up groups, and getting
them to present - I've seen quite a few from Code Fellows at various Seattle
meetups, for instance.

