
Ask HN: Why is there no activity indicator when an iPhone's camera is on? - jakemor
I never understood this. They indicate when your mic, location and even mobile hotspot is on, but there is no indication of whether your camera is on. Apps with permission to use the camera can use it without you knowing!
======
wincy
I remember reading that the Japanese iOS makes a loud shutter noise when you
take a picture that can’t be silenced.

It’s actually apparently a Japanese law.

[https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-turn-the-camera-shutter-
sound...](https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-turn-the-camera-shutter-sound-off-on-
a-Japanese-iPhone)

~~~
seltzered_
I believe this was also a feature on us versions of iOS years ago. Some
developers worked around it in “stealth camera” apps by playing the inverse of
the camera shutter soundwave to silence it.

~~~
gitgud
Although it's illegal, that's a brilliant hack. It's also a good reminder that
even the simplest systems, which are vetted by dozens of professionals, could
be easily defeated...

------
lumberingjack
I just want a phone that has a manual physical toggle button that kills the
power to the cameras if any apps need the camera they can just notify me to
please toggle that switch. One of the nightly build that I put on my note 8
turns on the edge screen notification flash when the cameras are on every once
in awhile I see that thing on no reason.

~~~
cyphar
The Librem 5 will have 3 hardware kill switches -- for WiFi, Cellular, and
Camera/Microphone.

~~~
beatgammit
This is perhaps the most compelling reason to get that phone. Once it
launches, I'll be watching reviews to see if it's usable as a phone.

It's a really exciting project and I hope other phone manufacturers integrate
some of those ideas.

~~~
cyphar
I pulled the trigger, and I'll be sure to blog about it once I've used it for
a while. I will admit I was a little worried how choppy the demo video of the
dev-kit looks[1], but we'll see how it works once I get it.

I'm a little bit worried that their "Chatty" messaging app[2] (which is what
the default Matrix client will be) is based on libpurple -- which is a library
that has a pretty gnarly history of security issues[3]. It is using a plugin
that the Matrix developers wrote[4], which I trust more -- but I'm still
queasy about it.

I'm currently working on a Matrix-Signal bridge so I can continue using Signal
once I switch to it (it won't have a native Signal app out-of-the-gate and I
don't really want to run an Android emulator).

[1]: [https://puri.sm/posts/massive-progress-exact-cpu-selected-
mi...](https://puri.sm/posts/massive-progress-exact-cpu-selected-minor-
shipping-adjustment/) [2]:
[https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/chatty](https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/chatty)
[3]: [https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/qkve5v/secure-
mes...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/qkve5v/secure-messaging-
might-not-be-so-secure-otr-libpurple) [4]: [https://github.com/matrix-
org/purple-matrix](https://github.com/matrix-org/purple-matrix)

------
iscrewyou
I’ve wondered this too. But maybe ux is more important in this case than
privacy. There’s a red or blue bar that shows up when mic or location or
hotspot is on. I’d hate to see that when my full screen camera app opens. But
I do value privacy. So another solution would be what Mac has implemented. A
led shows up whenever the camera is on. But I’ve seen reports and articles
where it’s possible to fire the Mac camera and shut it off quickly before the
LED has time to kick on. (I cover my Mac camera with a post-it).

I don’t know what the solution could be. Maybe a vibration of a specific kind?

I think Apple should address this. It’s a good next step in terms of privacy
focused Apple and it’s something that will be rewarding for the user to see
that whenever the camera opens, something happens. Good PR points for Apple. A
win for the user.

~~~
amenod
> But I’ve seen reports and articles where it’s possible to fire the Mac
> camera and shut it off quickly before the LED has time to kick on.

It should be trivial to delay LED's 'off' if it happens too soon after the
'on' signal.

There are many possible solutions if designers actually care about users'
privacy.

~~~
Pulcinella
I wonder if it would be possible to wire the LED and camera module in series
so that the only way for the camera to receive power is if the LED light is
also on?

~~~
jsjohnst
That’s actually what happens on current (as in since 2010) Apple laptops. The
camera sensor can not receive power without the LED being on. Pre-2010, the
design had a flaw and all the stories about “hacking the camera” that are
legit, are about the pre-2010 design.

~~~
etaoins
Presumably this would interact poorly with FaceID’s attention aware features.
iOS periodically activates the front facing camera while unlocked to determine
if you’re paying attention to the phone. This influences automatic screen
dimming and alert noises.

------
nonce_account
Disclosure of bias: I work for Microsoft. I don't speak for my employer.

Windows Phone 7's chassis specification mandated that manufacturers include a
hardwired LED that lit up when the front-facing camera is active. But Android
did not mandate this (or much of anything), and so the Qualcomm Reference
Device (QRD) didn't implement it. The QRD is important, because many low-end
manufacturers bootstrap their product design with a QRD and make the minimum
number of changes to arrive at a viable product. But manufacturers needed to
do extra engineering work and add to the BOM to make a Windows version of
their cheap Android products.

It eventually became clear that consumers weren't willing to pay any premium
for Windows Phone's higher standard for privacy. (I'm not claiming this was
the _only_ cause of WP's failure in the market -- just one small contributing
factor.) So we intentionally pared down later versions of the chassis
specification to minimize the differences between it and the QRD, including
removing this privacy LED requirement. In theory, this would have allowed
manufacturers to churn out cheap Windows Phones as easily as they were
churning out cheap Android Phones.

Of course in hindsight, that was all too little, too late. Android won the
cheap phone market for a huge number of reasons, one tiny factor of which is
that it didn't require a privacy LED. The moral I took away? If your products
cost more because they're safer, your marketing needs to ensure you get credit
for that. Safety isn't obvious to someone glancing at your product; you need
to spell all it out for the consumer. And if you can't find a way to
articulate it, then reconsider whether you _really_ need that safety feature.

------
llaappqq
The indicator indicates background activities. Eg. If you are using Google
maps for navigation, the bar will show when you switch away from Google maps.
But when you switch back, now it's happening in the foreground and the
indicator disappears.

Camera can only be accessed by the foreground app.

------
nsx147
If the camera is on it has to be shown on the screen right?

~~~
tcmb
Maybe not what OP had in mind, but there's also the issue of taking hidden
photos of others. If you're holding your phone in my direction, I don't see
what's on the screen, but an LED on the back could let me know that your
camera is on.

~~~
jrockway
Given that everyone uses cases, I doubt the LED would be visible.

People are always filming you in public, in the hopes of being the next viral
Instagram sensation.

------
Tepix
This may be controversial, but given the potential abuse I think there should
be a mandatory blinking orange LED next to every camera (both front and back).

If you make sure that all smartphone models use the same blinking frequency
(perhaps 3Hz) and LED color then people would quickly learn what it means.

------
RyanShook
Can the iPhone camera be accessed by applications without displaying some kind
of viewfinder?

~~~
mariopt
Yes, [https://youtu.be/jTm4fjx_eZ0?t=532](https://youtu.be/jTm4fjx_eZ0?t=532)
this is done with React Native. I don't think nothing prevents you from
rendering the camera UI preview component with an opacity of 0.0

I guess the main problem that no smartphone manufacturer wants to address is:
People who take photos without permission to other people. It would be
reasonable to enforce a law on all manufactures to add visible LED when the
phone camera is being used, in my opinion at least.

~~~
GhostVII
I don't think that would be reasonable. Unless there is a significant safety
issue or privacy issue that would be solved, I don't think the government
should force manufacturers to add features to their phones, seems like a
pretty extreme overreach. Any LED added could easily be removed or covered up
in a few seconds, so I don't see how it changes anything.

~~~
nitrogen
The ability to defeat a safety or privacy measure doesn't mean it shouldn't be
implemented. People sometimes buckle their seatbelts behind them instead of
wearing them, but seatbelts are still mandatory in most places.

There are many different instances where someone would want an indicator for a
camera and would not block the LED: detecting apps that take pictures without
being asked, knowing whether the person across the street is taking a photo or
a selfie so you don't accidentally photo bomb, random people taking photos who
didn't block the LED (of all the camcorders with LEDs back in the day, how
many actually had the LED covered?), etc.

~~~
GhostVII
The difference between this and seatbelts is that with the LED, you are trying
to prevent someone from maliciously using the camera, while with seatbelts you
are trying to give everyone the ability to be safe should they choose to do
so.

And regardless, the ability to defeat it should be a factor in determining
whether or not it is worth regulating, even if it isn't the sole factor. The
combination of having the LED both easy to defeat, and having very limited
usefulness, make it not worth regulating.

------
flingo
This likely hasn't been made clear to them with a terrifying example yet.

Guessing they currently don't have a hardware LED because it might freak
people out how much the camera is actually on. Likely no onscreen indicator
for the same reason. If they were going to make this change, they'd have to
weigh the benefits of making this change against spooking users who have no
idea why their bank app is using their front facing camera.

------
TomMarius
Is there an indicator on any other phone? Certainly none on my Samsung.

~~~
snailmailman
I don’t know of any phones with an indicator - but on the other hand I’ve
never seen a laptop that _doesnt_ have an indicator.

~~~
sigjuice
Also, I have seen many people with tape over their laptop’s camera. I have
never seen a phone with tape.

------
dontbenebby
Japan mandates a shutter sound due to issues with involuntary pornography:
[https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/30/japans-noisy-iphone-
prob...](https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/30/japans-noisy-iphone-problem/)

I'm surprised not even a simple LED is present though. IIRC Macbooks LEDs are
wired such that you can't use them without the current flowing through the LED

------
switch007
I hadn't considered this. I'm going to disable all camera permissions. I'll be
less lazy in the future (e.g. with WhatsApp, instead of taking a photo in app,
I'll use the Camera app then switch back)

------
s15624
[https://developer.apple.com/documentation/avfoundation/avcap...](https://developer.apple.com/documentation/avfoundation/avcapturesession/interruptionreason/videodevicenotavailableinbackground)

The camera cannot be accessed without displaying it on the screen.

~~~
lalos
That API says that the camera cannot be accessed when the app is not active
(in the background). Like when you receive a call, etc.

------
oyebenny
If I told you the light indictor can be switched off anyway by Apple?

------
jboles
It’s not the Apple way to make concessions to security through hardware means.
The hardware must remain a perfect uninterrupted glass slab, and any
protections would likely be made in software.

Edit: downvoter is welcome to point me to any model of Apple hardware that has
a hardware radio switch or a hardware cover for the camera lens? The secure
enclave is maybe the one exception to the above rule, but is highly software-
supported.

~~~
scarface74
The microphone is physically disconnected from power when you close the lid.

Also another poster said that the camera can’t get power without power going
through the led indicator first.

