
Bill Gates: "Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable?" - paolomaffei
http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/141821.asp
======
mrshoe
If Gates had maintained a dictatorial death grip on his company like Steve
Jobs has, MS probably could have made some decent products.

It's one thing to yell at the people who made this system via email. It's
quite another to _never allow them to ship it in the first place_.

~~~
ssp
Microsoft has made a bunch of very good products:

\- Windows 3.0 and 3.1 clearly hit exactly the sweet spot between DOS and OS/2

\- Word and Excel were legitimately better than the competition (and still
are, although there is not much competition left).

\- Internet Explorer 4 was so much better than Netscape 3 and 4 that it wasn't
even funny

\- Windows 2000 and XP were very good operating systems

~~~
ido
Almost all releases of the NT line were good (including Win 7).

Was there any OS contemporary to NT 3.51 that was better than it at anything
(beside win 95 when it comes to compatibility with more software & hardware)?

~~~
rbanffy
Solaris 2.5 was a very solid OS and better than NT 3.5 in most respects unless
a defining criteria for "better" is "runs well on PCs", which it didn't.

OS/2 was also a good OS for x86 PCs. At least as good as NT, unless, again,
you want it to run software designed for Windows.

~~~
ido
I wasn't really into OS/2 but I concede that it was probably about as good as
NT at the time.

I would, however, much rather use NT 3.51 as a desktop OS than Solaris 2.5
with CDE and its 80s-style command line utilities (luckily it seems they are
using GNU stuff nowadays?).

~~~
rbanffy
You always could get the GNU stuff and compile it yourself. My own installs
felt very GNU-ish at that time.

------
benbeltran
This made me think a bit about Bill Gates and Microsoft and Everything. People
really hate on Bill Gates because of Microsoft and their products, but after
seeing this email you get to see that he's as angry as any other user, and
even more because he knows all of this will fall back to him. His email
portrays not only anger, but some kind of impotence. It's impressive how big
companies lose touch with what they're doing. Most software I use lately comes
from small companies, they have this dedication and attention to detail that
only comes from when you're directly involved with your product. Business is a
weird world.

------
philwelch
I've seen this before, but it's worth a read again. Gates said when this first
came out that writing emails like this was pretty much his job. He's not the
only one--from the stories you read, it sounds like half of Steve Jobs' job is
to be a good critic. Of course, Apple doesn't release much until _after_ Steve
Jobs criticizes it.

------
RyanMcGreal
The fact that Gates regularly attempted to eat Microsoft's dog food (alas he
couldn't get the can open in this case) is encouraging; but ultimately it
doesn't seem to have helped much.

~~~
redstripe
If he did send out stuff like this often and nobody gave a damn then that's
really discouraging. There go my "if I ran Microsoft" fantasies. /sigh

I've always imagined one of the reasons Apple products are so polished is
because Steve rides people like this all day long until they stop sucking.

~~~
jshen
riding people isn't the solution, the problem is usually structural. Take any
product and there are 5 to 10 teams involved in it's development and they all
push their own little pet ideas. Rarely is there ever a single leader with a
single vision that is also involved in the day to day development and decision
making. Instead the person that should do this does what you suggest, they
swing in every once in a while, complain complain complain, then switch focus
to some other project for a bit, while never taking to time to solve the real
problem.

well, that's my sad experience from a couple of big companies.

~~~
Jkeg
Well yes. Microsoft is often said to have problems with teams competing
internally (pointlessly), or just not working together. However, that's a
management choice that can come from the top. If there's one thing a "Chief
Software Architect" should do, it's make sure all software teams are in the
habit of communicating and collaborating whenever possible. It doesn't seam
like that happened here.

~~~
jshen
I think the right thing to do is recognize the extremely high cost of
communication and collaboration and weigh that against the benefit.

Almost every manager I've known assumes that the cost of communication or
collaboration is near zero while the cost of development is extremely high.
Often, the cost of duplication development effort is lower than the cost of
adding another communication and collaboration channel.

------
muhfuhkuh
Seriously though, is all of this fixed in Windows 7, or are people just hyping
that up because it sucks alot less than any previous Windows iterations?

I don't think I've _ever_ seen a process that convoluted, and I've been using
Linux OSes since _before_ the advent of dependency-resolvers like yum and apt
(i.e, the bad old days of "RPM hell").

~~~
CWuestefeld
I'm a Windows person, but I've got Ubuntu on a netbook.

It took me a couple of hours to figure out how to get the repository for XBMC
set up so that it would let me install the program.

Now I'd like to upgrade to Ubuntu 10.4, but I don't have quite enough space in
the SSD to do it. I'd like to cut out some software that I don't really use on
the netbook. But I can't figure out how to make it actually _get rid_ of
things that I uninstall. In particular, since installations are hierarchies of
dependent packages, I can't see how to tell it "get rid of this and anything
that it depends on, that isn't required by something else".

So for now, I can't upgrade my Ubuntu installation.

This sounds like your typical family member who can't get Windows to work
right, doesn't it? I don't think that Linux has done anything _better_.
They've done it _different_ , and people who know the system can use it very
effectively, but those of us who don't know the incantations are still out in
the cold.

~~~
levesque
Personally I don't like synaptic, but if you open up the ubuntu software
centre and then click on 'installed software', you will see a list of every
application that is installed on your system.

Dependencies are automatically installed for all applications and are
automatically removed when there are no packages left that need them, so don't
worry about those!

If you're more a command line guy, you can do the same using aptitude
(aptitude remove package-name). Packages under aptitude will be listed as
(a)utomatically installed if they were installed as a requirement for another
package, so you shouldn't have to remove those by hand.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Also opening a console and using "popcon-largest-unused" should give you a
list of the largest packages that you have not yet used the binaries from.
Mine doesn't seem to update properly but this might be because I'm using
Kubuntu.

On my slimmed down system I use "sudo aptitude" type "/appname[Enter]", where
appname is from the list popcon gives, then "n" to find the package and then
try "_" (Shift+-) which purges the packages. If something will break you get a
warning "e" shows what the suggested action is "," and "." scroll through
options and "!" applies. When you're happy "g" will list the actions to be
taken and "g" again will confirm. "q" at any time quits or moves to the
previous menu or list. HTH.

------
Hexstream
"So they told me that using the download page to download something was not
something they anticipated."

~~~
emehrkay
Golden. As is this line

They told me to go to the main page search button and type movie maker (not
moviemaker!).

It's funny how far we've come, with today's out of the box search tools this
wouldnt be a problem

------
oihuyjfrgtdfghj
I tried to download it - their new simple solution is to include it as part of
Windows Live.

So I want a simple movie editor to clip 5secs off the beginning of a home
movie - BUT to do this I have to sign up for an MS specific hotmail account,
create a windows passport (I thought they had abandoned that?) get Windows
messenger, windows photo viewer and be included in a whole bunch of MS
specific social websites.

So I found a torrent of Movie maker 2.6 for XP - it works perfectly on Win7.

~~~
Elepsis
You know, no one took away the check boxes that let you choose which Windows
Live programs you want to install when you're trying to run the installer. The
installer doesn't even download any of those apps if you leave them unchecked.
If you don't want Messenger, Photo Gallery, or even to sign up for a Windows
Live ID, you don't have to get/do those things.

Most people find that this is actually helpful, though, because signing up for
(or using, since the vast majority of folks already have one) a Live ID
enables a bunch of convenient features like easily uploading your photos and
videos (either to Microsoft's services or to Flickr, YouTube, Facebook, etc.)
And most users who use Movie Maker also want to, for instance, organize their
photos. Let's not forget that iLife also comes as a suite for a reason.

On the other hand, signing up for a new throwaway account just to trash
Microsoft... yeah, that's classy.

(Usual disclosure: I work at Microsoft.)

~~~
pkaler
I'd suggest downloading the iWork demo and installing it.
<http://www.apple.com/iwork/download-trial/>

It's a magnitude easier than installing anything on Windows: Click Link. DMG
gets mounted on desktop. Click continue a couple times.

But really that's quaint, too. Install iMovie on the iPhone or iPad: Search
App Store. Click Install. Enter Password.

Expecting users to do anything else at install time is expecting too much.

~~~
jodrellblank
I wouldn't say installing _anything_ on windows - somethings are nice.
[http://germanysfinest.posterous.com/hooray-software-
policypa...](http://germanysfinest.posterous.com/hooray-software-policypatrol)

Also, no-install / portable apps are ever such a pleasant trend - just copy
the files and run them.

------
moultano
This is a great reminder (to me) that software UI should be designed around
how many pieces of information it needs from the user, not how many things it
needs to do.

------
jedberg
I think by far the most telling part of this was this quote:

"Then it told me to reboot my machine. Why should I do that? I reboot every
night -- why should I reboot at that time?"

No wonder he has no idea how horrible Windows is. He resets it every day.

~~~
philwelch
Until sleep mode (and laptops) became the social custom, lots of people shut
down at night and booted up in the morning.

~~~
jedberg
I'm well aware of that. I'm just saying that most of us hard core folks did
not, which is why we complain more about Windows.

------
ajg1977
Although amusing, this is an example of poor management IMO.

It comes across as the sort of email you would write while criticizing/mocking
a competitors product that you were powerless to change.

There's no demand for improvement, or accountability for making that happen.
No wondering if this small experience is indicative of other problems. He's
just "disappointed".

~~~
mtr
For me it's more an example of poor management from the fact that he allowed
development to become so fragmented that the end result was a convoluted mess.

I know if the the richest man in the world said he was disappointed with
something I had, the implications of not fixing the problem would be very
clear. :)

------
jkantro
After recently working with Microsoft on a project for 8 months all I can say
is the way their product team offices are set up is quite bad. The user
experience designers and visual designers are sitting hallways down from the
developers and program managers. This is not how it should be. All
stakeholders in the application design process should be near each other. Open
work spaces do wonders for communication and collaboration, which in turn
affects product design.

------
Seth_Kriticos
Ok, this is kind of old shoe, but let's discuss the Windows usability a bit.

I have to endure some amount of XP and 7 on a regular basis, so I have some
understanding on how to work with them (well, mostly how to set up or correct
things).

Those that say that Windows 7 is so much better.. well, in some sense. I
admittedly has better optics. And it crashes less.

Administrative tasks got more tiresome though, compared to XP you have to wade
through more windows to get to a specific configuration point. That gets very
irksome if you want to perform some configuration for a dozen PC's. (Enough to
make it very repetitive, too little that automation would make much sense,
especially considering the abysmal automation tools Windows comes with _cough_
shell _cough_ ). Other critical points are software management systems (lack
of) and general disability in the usability sector.

Granted, learning to cope with a Linux system is somewhat more challenging,
but once you are into it, it's really much less bother to do things, no matter
the scale.

Microsoft still has a long way to go just to reach the current status. Maybe
they will manage, as they seem to be very apt at keeping the stranglehold on
the market.

And I will keep avoiding them as much as I can.

~~~
WalterGR
_Enough to make it very repetitive, too little that automation would make much
sense, especially considering the abysmal automation tools Windows comes with
cough shell cough_

Hmm... I've been thinking about switching to Powershell. What do you find
abysmal about it?

~~~
Seth_Kriticos
You are kidding, right? Powershell just does not conform to the original UNIX
sh standards, which is why even console wizards will avoid it.

Same reason why tcsh and ksh didn't get traction, and they even have merit to
them.

Who is the target audience? UNIX command line people certainly aren't. Then
who, people that managed to learn VB Scripting host?

That's just not how things work.

~~~
munchhausen
> Same reason why tcsh and ksh didn't get traction, and they even have merit
> to them.

In the world of enterprise Unix, ksh is king. It is used even for "serious"
applications, not only as the sysadmin's glue of choice (the company where I
work at was using, in 2009, a HR payroll application written in ksh. Had they
not outsourced accounting to a third party, they would probably still be using
it today).

Granted, "legacy" Unices are being slowly obsoleted by Linux, but ksh lives
on. It would be unthinkable for RHEL or SLES to deprecate ksh and leave it out
of the distribution - enterprise customers would probably think this is some
kind of a bad joke.

~~~
caf
ksh is king (for writing portable shell scripts) because it has long had a
reputation for being the one shell that was available everywhere, and _worked
the same_ everywhere.

------
djacobs
I remember reading this when it first came out, at a time when I was still on
Windows. I remember thinking, "Finally! Microsoft products are bound to
improve after a letter like that from Gates."

Two years later, nothing about XP had changed, and I moved to OS X, just in
time to avoid Vista...

So, while the letter is, itself, excellent, I'm not sure how much it did to
help out Windows in the long run. (Maybe Windows 7 represents a change.)

------
julnepht
My biggest takeway from this email is to write short paragraph s when writing
a long email. Seems pretty simple but I had never thought about this. Write
2-3 lines per paragraph.

------
lelele
Guys, has uncle Bill mellowed with age! In the past meeting with him about MS
products meant keeping a f __* score:

<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html>

Now, he's just "quite disappointed".

------
paolomaffei
The first time I read it I was in disbelief. I actually checked if the mail
was fake or true, turns out it's true.

The second time I read it I actually laughed.

------
blhack
The part about him filling in the form on microsoft.com and having it tell him
that what he input was invalid is particularly hilarious.

------
sdh
My name is Bill and Windows was my idea.

~~~
hughw
My name is Steve and Windows was _my_ idea.

~~~
White_N_Nerdy
My name is Douglas Engelbart and Windows was my idea before Alan Kay, Bill
Gates _or_ Steve Jobs.

~~~
cpr
Not really. Englebart pioneered the mouse & a semi-GUI interface in NLS, but
it didn't involve multiple windows.

------
bond
"So they told me that using the download page to download something was not
something they anticipated."

WTH???!!

------
seamlessvision
This e-mail has been going around for years now. It's old news.

------
famousactress
So Windows 7 was _his_ idea!

Mystery solved.

------
c00p3r
Most of the time you don't need some authority person's opinion to realize
that something is a total mess. Your own experience is enough. That is what
this email is all about - users will create their own opinion very quickly.

The another example is Java development. Everyone who run Maven2 build process
(say to build clojure-contrib) will be amazed by a tons of a strange and
useless messages, repeated downloads of what seems the same files (but,
different minor version numbers) to unknown location. That process will took
something like 10 minutes on 3G connection, while you have absolutely no idea
what's going on (OK, I can figure out that it is a process of a recursive
downloading and building dependencies, and because people don't care about
migration to the latest stable versions, it will download half of internet.)

This alone tells me what is really happening in a Java world better than all
Sun's brainwashing altogether. ^_^

btw, _sudo apt-get install maven2_ downloaded another 70Mb of shit (in case
JDK is already installed). 70Mb for a apt+make replacement? Compressed Linux
kernel sources are less in size.

------
a1g
throw windows out the window, use linux, problem solved..play guitar hero with
all the spare time...

