
Show HN: My Desk Chair - hashbangsam
http://people.csail.mit.edu/prentice/entries/desk_chair.html
======
msluyter
My first thought is that the monitors would be way too far away for someone
with poor eyesight like myself. Which reminded me...

At my last dentist appointment I was thinking about how comfortable the chair
was and wondering whether you could set up a workstation with one (perhaps
with totally separated right and left hand keyboards so your arms rest at your
sides?) To make it work, I think you'd need monitors on like boom arms
essentially suspended above you. Anyone tried something like this?

~~~
TaylorAlexander
I've thought about this recently, and the solution is the Oculus Rift or some
incarnation of VR. Mounting the monitors is really the only major technical
challenge to the setup you describe, and not being able to adjust your
distance to mounted monitors would also be a real problem. The current Rift
dev kit does not have sufficient resolution to do computer work, and the new
units still will not have nearly the pixel density of modern monitors, but
what you lose in pixel density you gain in screen real estate.

The rift basically surrounds you in a digital environment, and a few people
have already started to show off desktop environments that work in VR. Working
at your computer in VR means a few major benefits:

-Your workstation is no longer defined by the physical space it resides in, so it can go with you wherever you want, such as on the train, in your self-driving car, etc.

-Your workspace is no longer limited to several constrained rectangles in front of you - you pay for a single display device and get a workspace that literally surrounds you.

-You are no longer required to sit upright staring forward, something we have generally acknowledged isn't good for you. Some people spend more money on a nice chair than the cost of an Oculus Rift just to save their back. Not needing to stare forward to view monitors means you can work in any orientation, such as a comfortable reclined position. The staple of starship captains and movie hackers, the reclined "dentist" style chair is generally represented in movies as the way people would sit if they had sufficient resources, such as their own hollywood set building team.

-Your workspace is 3D, but not gimmick 3D monitor style - actual immersive 3D, so your applications could take advantage of this for more contextual information and improved workflow.

-You have total privacy - no one can see what you are working on in VR, so no one can look over your shoulder. That is until they make virtual coworking spaces. Which will happen.

-Your workspace can be flying through the cosmos, on a beach in Aruba, on a NASCAR track, or anywhere else you find interesting. You could be immersed in front row seats of a live tennis match while you work on your TPS reports. You could work on new VR applications inside of your new VR applications, for the ultimate inception "yo dawg" moment.

Cons: We will become like the people in WALL _E.

But... will we? I work from home. I have a standard desktop and 3 monitors. I
wake up, walk to the kitchen, make breakfast, then walk to the office to work.
Google shopping Express delivers my groceries. Amazon delivers most of my
other goods. If I had a self driving car I wouldn't even need to participate
in my own transportation when it was needed. What does this mean? It means the
future is already on it's way to becoming so convenient that a nearly 100%
sedentary lifestyle is entirely possible even for first world people who
maintain full employment. For people like me, a dentist chair and virtual
reality workstation will not make me any more sedentary - I took 300 steps the
other day. I can't really hit much lower of a limit on that.

All this means is that I need to take control of my own exercise routine. I
need to force myself to work out, as my daily life does not provide sufficient
exercise as is. People who do not do this will become fat, like those in
WALL_E. But being fat is clearly regarded as unhealthy, and our society is
becoming aware of the dangers of unchecked obesity. As we get a handle on
appropriate health care in the first world, we will need to encourage people
to work out.

For now, I ride a bike, but if I had a self driving car that could take me to
the gym while I worked on email, perhaps I'd get out and socialize more.

Rant/Aside: People are pretty dismissive of some of the amazing new tech
coming out. Amazon wants to totally eliminate the cost of human labor for
delivering goods by using drones, and people just say "but yeah Skynet haha.
It's dumb anyway". Virtual reality is actually happening and it's a
revolutionary new kind of display device that I know will change the world,
and people say "but yeah the virtual boy sucked. this is just more hype, VR
will never happen, or it doesn't matter." Robotics in general can change the
nature of how we consume things by eliminating all human costs. Robots have
fixed costs that can be amortized down to nearly zero for incremental labor,
something that is not possible for human workers. We should embrace the
technology of the future and figure out how it can be used to do positive
things, rather than dismiss it for it's capability to do bad. Skynet jokes are
old hat. Lets talk about how much better we can make the future.

Another note: Virtual reality and telepresence can eliminate the "AI problem"
for robots - that is, we have been able to make robots that can do neat stuff
for a long time, but giving them any intelligence has been a so far
intractable problem. A remote human operator could control a robot worker with
much more precision than our current AI technology, transporting human
intelligence into a robot and eliminating the need for comprehensive AI. VR
enables 1:1 viewing of remote 3D environments, something a monitor does not
provide. This will lead to both good and bad new technology, but as they say -
you take the good with the bad.

~~~
3rd3
I didn’t read it all, but you don’t seem to mention keyboards which we still
have to align our bodies to. Voice input is distracting to your immediate
environment, gestures are non-optimal because of the lack of tactile feedback.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
I'm not sure how you could expect to participate in the discussion without
reading the thing you are replying to, but you are correct, I don't mention
keyboards. Using a keyboard while in a reclined position isn't really a
challenge so I didn't think it needed mentioning - you can put one on a plank
across your lap, or use a split keyboard on the armrests. But mounting
monitors in a comfortable position is mechanically difficult.

~~~
3rd3

        Your workstation is no longer defined by the physical space it resides in, so it can go with you wherever you want, such as on the train, in your self-driving car, etc.
    

I was referring to this sentence. The input device will probably keep being
restricting until we have BCIs.

But I agree that it sounds like a great idea having a virtual half-sphere
surrounding you and it would certainly be a relief for the neck at least.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
Ah, yeah that makes sense. You would definitely be limited in input while
mobile, but at least it would be possible to bring your workspace with you.
The good news is, VR has already spawned an incredible amount of research in
more natural human computer interaction, so hopefully some of these input
problems will be better solved. Most of the input problems being tackled over
the last few years have to do with touch screens, which can never be as useful
as purpose-built interaction hardware. Keyboards aren't as useful when you
can't see them, and VR no longer requires being at a desk, so with any luck we
will see real headway in high quality new text input and interaction devices
soon.

------
columbo
I think a better solution is to not have one designated body position for
work.

I have an office with only a standing desk but I'll come in and sit by the
table, or on the recliner, or even lie on the floor.

The hardest part was getting myself trained to be just as productive on one
monitor.

My anecdotal evidence is I feel this has been better than doing X day-after-
day year-after-year.

~~~
EC1
>The hardest part was getting myself trained to be just as productive on one
monitor.

Sold my 6 monitor PC setup for a single MBPR. That combined with an external
trackpad just takes a swipe or two to get to the screen I want.

~~~
vonmoltke
No matter what I do, I can't handle bouncing between screens like that. I use
my virtual desktops to organize different tasks if I need to work multiple
things at once, but for a given task I want as much visible to me at once as
possible.

------
jballanc
Saw the "CSAIL" domain and I expected steps 4-20 to describe how to attach an
electric motor, some actuators, and software to automatically direct the chair
to a specific monitor based on facial recognition from the webcams in each.

...but this is pretty cool too.

~~~
ericd
One guy had a PC on his loft, and a chair hung with a winch so that he could
sit, press a button, and it would pull him up to the keyboard. It was pretty
badass...

------
josefresco
I use one of these bad boys: [http://www.amazon.com/Gaiam-Balance-Ball-
Chairs/dp/B006JBWYD...](http://www.amazon.com/Gaiam-Balance-Ball-
Chairs/dp/B006JBWYDA)

My wife/business partner also uses one and (begrudgingly) convinced me to
ditch my $300+ leather office chair for one.

I'm sold. It's the best option short of sitting on just the ball part (which
engages more balance muscles)

The best part is your can't "slump" into the chair if you're feeling tired.
The best option at that point it to get up and do something else as opposed to
fighting your body and relying on a _Lazy-Boy_ approach.

What I like especially is that when listening to music, or when you're feeling
energetic you (subconsciously at times) tend to bounce and roll your butt
around on the ball which exercises even more muscles in your back/lower body.

~~~
joemaller1
Most of the advantages of sitting on a ball are negated when you put it in one
of those fake-chair things. Try the ball by itself.

~~~
josefresco
I did, and it's too much. The chair is a nice in-between solution while still
encouraging you to sit upright and balance yourself.

------
cheez
My setup: [http://i.imgur.com/HKhovMT.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/HKhovMT.jpg)

I used to sit on a normal desk chair but it felt wrong. I can sit here for
longer without issue, though I still get up every half hour. As long as I
ensure my head is touching the back of the chair as well as the bottom of my
back (i.e., no hunch), my spine is easily straight and I have absolutely no
back problems after working for a long time, which happens on occasion,
believe it or not.

~~~
oftenwrong
Seems like the monitor is too low for proper ergonomics.

~~~
cheez
Did some experimenting based on your comments and it looks like the ideal
position to improve my setup would be:

1\. Some form of a foot rest

2\. The monitor raised to the next height

3\. A bluetooth keyboard so my wrists can rest on my lap

------
ChuckMcM
Reminds me of Roger's chair :
[http://www.arrickrobotics.com/chair/](http://www.arrickrobotics.com/chair/)

The scorpion looking thing
([http://greenstylo.blogspot.com/2013/08/emperor-1510-workstat...](http://greenstylo.blogspot.com/2013/08/emperor-1510-workstation.html))
is probably the ultimate one for me though. That would be pretty awesome.

~~~
billmalarky
The scorpion one looks awesome, but I feel like I would be too tempted to nap
at that incline.

------
cylinder
Nice, but the rest of the cluttered and chaotic setup would provide me with
endless anxiety.

~~~
hashbangsam
... and that picture was on a good day

------
subsection1h
Yet another discussion about chairs without any mention of active
sitting/seating.

Based on my own experience with standing desks and high-end office chairs (the
most recent being a Herman Miller Embody, which I ended up selling), I've
concluded that I need an office setup that allows me to move throughout the
day and not just stand or sit nearly motionless for most of the day.

After trying out all the chairs at my local office furniture stores (yet
again) and enjoying a Swopper stool that one of the stores had in their
showroom, I'm now planning to order a Swopper Air. The Swopper is the most
comfortable active seating solution that I've tried (but I haven't spent hours
sitting on it yet).

I hope the Swopper Air works out for me. If not, I'll finally pull the trigger
on a LifeSpan TR5000-DT3 treadmill for my standing desk.

~~~
specialist
I bought a cushion bar stool off craigslist. Works great. Stand, lean, half-
sit, full sit, whatever.

Before that I had drafting stool. Sometimes made my ass fall asleep, which was
my reminder to move around.

Followup: Just googled "Swopper Air". $699. Bam. My bar stool cost $40.

~~~
dsissitka
I picked one up for less than $500 a few years ago. I wonder why its price
skyrocketed. Its successor is currently priced at $559:

[http://www.ergodepot.com/Muvman_p/muv.htm](http://www.ergodepot.com/Muvman_p/muv.htm)

------
comrh
What's the thinking behind your light setup?

~~~
hashbangsam
our lab is a photon vacuum.

i've iterated through an array of desk lamps, but realized the biggest problem
is the lack of reflections from walls/ceilings.

so the shield is a big light reflector --- just foam posterboard taped
together and hung from a 5-iron and some rope.

the $5 ikea lamps provide nice warm light, and the angular shield makes it
feel like you're on a photo shoot with ambient light and minimal self-
occluding shadows.

~~~
krilnon
> our lab is a photon vacuum.

Parts of it, anyway. My desk was next to one of those huge glass walls facing
Kiva. We also got reflections from the mirror-like metal paneling on the
opposite side of the tower.

------
enscr
As someone who's struggled with back + shoulder pain and having gone through a
few expensive chairs, now I feel that a correct posture is more important than
chair. I have a cheap cookie cutter chair + a thin pillow and I can work much
better. Not advertising anything, just go to Amazon and search "back pain" in
books. Probably the first entry is the one. It teaches you how to correct your
posture naturally. Or just watch a video from the book author on youtube. I
think that technique alone will fix a lot of the problems.

~~~
pyrocat
Could you post the youtube video?

~~~
enscr
For sitting :
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9CDhcVTAdc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9CDhcVTAdc)

Similarly there are methods for standing, lying etc.

~~~
karlgrz
I've been fighting with wrist/back/neck pain for a while now. I always
attributed it to working on a laptop on my train commute (1 hour each way) to
work. I just watched that video and tried it out at the office, it feels MUCH
more comfortable. Thanks for sharing! Hopefully it helps.

~~~
enscr
I'm glad I could help. I've felt so helpless with back pain in the past that I
love to share this book with anyone who's had similar problems. It's hard to
imagine that the problem is so trivial, for which we seek really expensive
solutions through herman millers & the likes.

------
DontBeADick
In an industry with a fetish for stand-up desks, you are a true rebel.

------
nezza-_-
How much sport do you do for your back? This setup looks like it's
comfortable, but not healthy. I'm not a physician but a friend of mine is, he
said this is not a good idea, you need to move your back etc to give nutrition
to your spinal discs. I'm using a Swopper as chair, it's quite nice and allows
me to move around all day, but it also requires discipline and a bit of back
training.

------
MattBearman
I've been thinking about something similar to this since reading this article
-
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6187080.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6187080.stm)

I was thinking of going one step further and suspending my monitor over my
face - at a reasonable distance of course :)

~~~
malone
I have a bodged together standing/bed desk -
[http://imgur.com/Ia9GNwL](http://imgur.com/Ia9GNwL)

I tend to stand behind the desk during the day and recline on the bed in the
evenings. I do find reclining with the suspended monitor is very comfortable
(sometimes i'll lie almost horizontal with the monitor directly above me) but
I think I'd struggle to do a full days work like that.

~~~
suyash
interesting way to manage the space in a optimal way but coding on bed, that's
not for me.

------
melling
He's using a Kinesis keyboard, which does seem to come up a lot in ergonomic
discussions. Does it offer anything over a Tek
([https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php](https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php))?

~~~
subsection1h
The main benefit of the Kinesis Contoured for me is that the Ctrl and Alt
buttons are pressed by my thumbs, not my pinkies. No Emacs pinky for me.

~~~
thinkling
Same here. Reducing the weird reach for modifiers is a big advantage of the
Kinesis.

------
varelse
While (ironically) that is _exactly_ the La-Z-Boy from which I watch
television and sometimes sleep, it would be an ergonomic disaster for me to
work from it.

1\. I have a (really) long body and (freakishly IMO) short legs (as in my wife
is 6" shorter than me but still has longer legs). If my arms were extended
down to the arm rests for typing, fuggedaboutit, I'd be crippled in a week.

2\. Due to uncorrectable vision issues, I have a 30" monitor roughly 1' from
my face. I would barely be able to read text on the monitor setup you have.

3\. Can't use a mouse, can't use a kinesis keyboard sadly.

4\. Haven't been able to use laptops effectively for 15+ years. Ironically,
tablets are no problem. Go figure that one out.

That said, we seem to share a passion for hoarding gadgets.

------
T-zex
We recently moved to the new flat and I had to give up my desk in a hope to do
all the coding at work.

Of course you have to do some coding at home, but without a desk it is not so
convenient especially that my Linux box is a desktop.

So I ended up having a TV screen instead of a monitor, couch instead of an
office chair and having a keyboard on my laps with no desk at all. Kinesis
Advantage seems to be specifically designed to be used in this way. It is very
convenient and feels ergonomic.

I'm a bit annoyed by the TV which is a bit too far and I have to reduce the
resolution for easier reading.

It is fun to see somebody else coding in a similar way.

------
jderick
I don't think reclining is that great for your shoulders / neck since it
encourages your shoulders to slump forward and you will be likely to hold your
head forward in order to see your monitor properly.

~~~
nulagrithom
I tried the recliner-desk for a while myself. After a couple months the
behavior you described started to take its toll as well. I traded one pain for
another.

------
zenocon
My eyes aren't good enough to sit that far away from the monitor. I had back
pain, and other aches too -- then I decided to just get in shape. I do high
intensity circuit training (mix of cardio / strength) 3x a week, and all my
physical problems disappeared. I've never felt better.

I often sit at my desk exactly how you are not supposed to: slouched with feet
up on the desk...but b/c my core is strong, it doesn't ever phase me. I think
most people will find if they just get in shape, a lot of these desk fads will
just go away for them.

------
tzs
What is that blue thing on the floor near the right front of the desk?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Do you mean amongst the cables at the side of the desk or the thing that looks
like a makerbot mounted on a turtle/robo-vacuum at the front to the left of
the rucksack?

I liked the avocado best.

------
yeukhon
I like MIT dormitory culture. As freshman you have to decorate the dorm room
yourself. You have to build the bed frame, the table yourself. I love that
culture.

------
cwbrandsma
I actually like that setup, as I prefer a chair that leans back as well. And
the area looks cozy...I like some clutter, I feel more comfortable in spaces
like that.

Here are my suggestions for the rest of your setup:

1\. Monitor arms. That will allow you to move you monitors around easily. I
use one from 3m. 2\. Deeper desk. I use an old kitchen table that is really
just a thick 4x8 sheet of plywood.

------
larrywright
I injured my foot a few months ago, and as a result had significant swelling
in my foot. The best solution is to elevate the foot, which has led me to
working much of the day from a recliner (I work from home), with the laptop in
my lap. It's been surprisingly comfortable. I'm not sure I could do it forever
though.

------
ChikkaChiChi
This is close to a design in my head. I even bought the LaZBoy to work on it.

What we need is a swing away arm similar to the nav console in Star Trek: The
Next Generation.

The only problem tends to be that you have to keep the keyboard and mouse
separate from the monitor arm so that your screens don't shake.

------
chrisBob
Hospital beds start at about $500. I might have to put together a kickstarter
campaign for a hospital bed, downward facing monitor, and split keyboard
setup. The only thing I can't figure out is the mouse. Would a motion tracking
mouse that follows your nose be too much?

------
edwinyzh
I think I'm not off topic, but what's the name of your keyboard? I'm
considering the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard as a replace for my current
Microsoft 4000, in order to relief me from pain on the back of my right
shoulder...

~~~
SloopJon
Looks like a Kinesis Advantage. I've long been tempted to get one, but could
never convince myself that it was worth $300.

Seems to me that the recent Microsoft keyboards are kind of mushy. I use an
Apple wireless keyboard at work. It has a relatively light touch, and is
comfortable on my lap. At home, I'm breaking in a tenkeyless keyboard with
Cherry MX Brown switches. There's something satisfying about banging away on
it. I bet the Blue switches would be even better, but I was afraid they'd make
too much of a racket.

I've gotten a bit of WASD claw from first-person shooters, gorilla arm from
poor mousing form, and gamer thumb from too much Xbox. Those injuries (if I
can even call them that) didn't prompt me to search for a new keyboard or an
ergonomic game controller. I just backed off a bit on the offending activity.

~~~
edwinyzh
Ergonomic devices would help, but you are wise to back off a bit on those
activities. To me a dream keyboard would be Microsoft 4000 with softer keys,
and most importantly, with the number pad split.

------
sosuke
I love the idea, but I'd probably end up feeling too far away from the
monitors.

~~~
hashbangsam
i sometimes pull them forward. they need to be on casters too :)

~~~
mturmon
The wheel, a truly great design pattern.

------
rootuid
Cluttered, messy, ugly and how the hell can you read the screens from back
there ?

~~~
hashbangsam
i slide the chair forward until the arms are just under the desk and my feet
hit the back wall of the desk.

occasionally i slide the monitors forward or backward if my eyes feel strained

------
zacinbusiness
I know the guy says he tried a standing desk...but I wonder if he calibrated
it correctly? It's more than just standing in front of a desk, you have to get
all the measurements correct as well.

------
kaonashi
On a lot of La-Z-Boy chairs, there are two wingnuts that can adjust the back
tension; I would think tightening those down would make operating the chair
more stable while wheels were engaged.

------
jotux
Relevent:
[http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/57654.php](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/57654.php)

------
romanrage
Just visit the site and see the pictures, and after seeing your Desk chair,
all I can say is you make your room your office..

------
stonogo
Your work environment looks like the den of a trash golem who failed to
evacuate in accordance with FEMA recommendations.

------
gohrt
Tell me more about those reflector/diffuser flaps around the lights...

~~~
hashbangsam
it creates ambient lighting, and feels like being on a photo shoot.

it's just some foam posterboard tapes together, but it does a good job of
reflecting light from many angles, so if you are reading/writing on the desk,
you don't get shadows from your head/arms

i highly recommend those $5 ikea lamps too, they give off nice warm light

------
garycomtois
Nice chair, but what's with the modified roomba?

~~~
hashbangsam
it's called a turtlebot, just a simple trashcan robot that you can throw
sensors on for basic research

------
ebbv
Step 1) Buy a laptop.

Step 2) Work anywhere you want.

~~~
schwap
Using a laptop (especially on your lap) is ergonomically terrible.

------
collyw
Will do wonders for your posture.

------
ageofwant
You Sir, are a god among men.

------
postit
Are you on Media Lab?

~~~
hashbangsam
csail

------
klausnrooster
Points for Longboard

------
jdorw
and a Turtlebot!

------
Eleutheria
My dream chair is a lazy-boy with two trackballs in both armrests, a swiveling
24" display and a swiveling wireless keyboard attached to the base of the left
armrest. A pivoting right armrest for easy enter/exit like an airplane.

Just sit, rest your arms, control the display with the trackballs and when you
need to code, slide the keyboard in and type furiously without moving your
head from its resting position, like looking to the ceiling.

If you place a laptop on your legs, the neck will suffer after some time.

I know, I am a lazy-boy surfer.

