
A Theory of Creepiness - pepys
https://aeon.co/essays/what-makes-clowns-vampires-and-severed-hands-creepy
======
sargun
I was hoping that the article would explain the increase in the popularity of
'creepy':

[https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=creepy](https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=creepy)
[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=creepy&year_st...](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=creepy&year_start=1800&year_end=2016&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccreepy%3B%2Cc0)

~~~
icanhackit
I'm stating the obvious but it's spiking every October in anticipation of
Halloween. Ignoring those spikes and looking at the growth trend that began
around 2007, it looks fairly organic and has remained relatively flat since
mid 2014. What kicked it off in 2007 I don't know.

The term has simply become a short-hand way of describing something that
brings unease. The problem with the term is that people aren't actually
describing what characteristics are bringing that sense of unease, thus
someone who's a little awkward gets lumped in with far worse characters. So it
can be used indiscriminately but it's an easy way to describe something that's
difficult to define, hence its ongoing popularity.

~~~
tedks
>What kicked it off in 2007 I don't know.

The internet meme of "creepypasta," probably. See /r/nosleep for the sanitized
version. This is the meme cluster that yielded Slenderman, BEKs, and the SCP
project.

~~~
sargun
Both of those other memes are on the decline right now:
[https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=creepy,cree...](https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=creepy,creepypasta,slenderman)

You'll find they peaked in 2014, and it took them until 2010 to become
popular.

~~~
tedks
Well, Slenderman had the video game Slender popularize the meme, so I would
expect the trend to be dominated by people who came to the meme via that game
rather than the organic growth. From that chart it looks to me like creepy
started spiking around the same time creepypasta did. To be fair, creepypasta
is the name of a genre at its origin source, whereas most people are going to
see stories downstream of the origin and search for them with queries like
"creepy black eye kids" or something.

I guess I would qualify that I think this meme is probably what caused the
2007 spike. Later growth in the creepy space is probably more due to online
dating becoming popularized; this would allow creeps to be creepy with
virtually no possibility of retribution.

------
RodericDay
Thinking about movie stereotypes about ie: people who collect hair, I think a
distinction should be made between those described as merely "scary" and those
described as "creepy".

Take a horror movie. If said collector is a recluse who's history nobody knows
about, they're described as scary. If they're out and about, visiting
neighbors, trying to relate and engage with people, they are much more likely
to be described as creepy.

As such, bringing it back to everyday behavior, I think the critical aspect
that determines whether something is creepy or not is whether there is a
mismatch between what the person is explicitly informing they want to do (be a
friendly neighbor), and whether the person on the receiving end suspects there
are ulterior motives (they want to collect hair).

------
wincy
I think it's really naive to brush aside the fact that almost all women
elicited thoughts of men as being creepy. Women are scared of being raped or
worse happening to them, and they're constantly on the lookout for it. This
has nothing to do with "categorization", and everything to do with
"potentially dangerous".

Being afraid of a creepy guy who won't leave you alone is very different than
being creeped out by a clown or an abandoned building.

~~~
ndthp
Is it very different though? Both fall within, as explained in the article,
the ambiguity and mental paralysis coming from being unable to determine
whether or not a threat exists.

~~~
omginternets
Agreed. I think a good approximate description of "creepy" might be "ambiguous
or novel, absent overt signaling of pacific intent".

Or, more crudely: "wtf" \- "oh, it's harmless".

What's interesting to me is that under such a definition there's a clear
notion of intentionality. Something can only be creepy when it's behavior is
directed towards an object. While it might be tempting to point towards places
that are creepy (e.g. abandoned hospital), I would suggest that these are
_eerie_ rather than _creepy_.

------
jshevek
> a peculiar smile; having greasy or unkempt hair, bulging eyes, abnormally
> long fingers, very pale skin or bags under the eyes.

Did Steve Buscemi help define creepiness for the polled group, or did he hit a
genetic jackpot of pre-existing ideas of creepiness? (Or both?)

Edit:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Buscemi](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Buscemi)

~~~
mbrock
Anecdotally, I know more than one straight woman who finds Buscemi really
attractive. I'm not surprised. He's cool.

------
sprash
Interesting side note: The words "Awkward" and "Creepy" don't exist in German
and there are no direct or inderect equivalents. It goes so far that it is
culturally impossible to have creepy or awkward behaviour.

~~~
pluma
Creepy ~= Gruselig/Unheimlich

Awkward ~= Komisch/Unbeholfen

And the concepts totally do translate to German. A lot of people would
describe a "creepy guy" as "gruselig" in German. Actually we've imported the
word "Freak" to describe these people.

As an aside: there was a German copy of the "Beauty and the Geek" show that
was far more dehumanising and called "Das Model und der Freak" where the
entire concept was that "pretty" c-list celebrity women would give a "nerdy
loser" a makeover to turn him into a generic alpha male womanisers.

The entire concept was "here's this loser weirdo no girl would ever date,
let's make him conventionally attractive and exterminate his pre-existing
personality in its entirety". The sole point of the show was ridiculing these
"weirdos" and their strange hobbies -- of course the exploitable traits were
exaggerated through bad scripting and heavy editing.

A pet peeve of mine is that until recently the words "geek" and "nerd" have
often been replaced by "Freak" as movies are translated to German, drastically
skewing the intended meaning ("Freak" is almost always an insult). Recently
"Geek" and "Nerd" seem to have entered the German language (especially the
former, mostly via gaming and social media) so hopefully that's coming to an
end.

~~~
sprash
> Creepy ~= Gruselig/Unheimlich

> Awkward ~= Komisch/Unbeholfen

Those translations don't really contain that additional negativity of
"Creepy/Awkward". It is hard really pinpoint it though.

> there was a German copy of the "Beauty and the Geek" show that was far more
> dehumanising and called "Das Model und der Freak" where the entire concept
> was that "pretty" c-list celebrity women would give a "nerdy loser" a
> makeover to turn him into a generic alpha male womanisers.

But that was so much more over the top. Those guys were more like "eklig"
(disgusting).

~~~
detaro
To me the range of negativity (from let's say "creepy Halloween decoration" to
"that creepy old guy" or "a jar full of babys' fingers") is similar in both
languages, and something that has to be inferred from context. "Creepy" covers
the disgusting axis a bit more, but eklig/ekelhaft covers that area easily if
necessary.

The fact that "creepy" is used in German language sometimes points towards
that the terms are not exactly identical, but it's a tiny difference and in no
way big enough to say that the concept doesn't exist. It's just a shorthand
for something that otherwise might require a modifier or explanation, + using
English is cool.

------
anotheryou
I don't get the "essence" and living things thing.

I think it boils down to unknown, potentially threatening behavior. The big
eyed, tail wagging mix of a dog and a mouse is not so creepy. Walking on to
cobblestones and they feel like they are floating scares us. A house painted
in perfect white, all lights turned on, but without furniture or any people is
creepy.

The funeral director and taxidermist is creepy, because he isn't creeped out
by death himself.

edit: reading the other comments: this is about scary creepy, as in "freaks me
out", not creepy as in "ugh, leave me alone you perv". Though there are
overlaps of course.

------
wallflower
I've developed my own thoughts about creepiness, since coming across as creepy
is one of my biggest fears.

1) The theory of mirror neurons. This theory states that if you are nervous,
the other person will pick up on it subconsciously. As the article states,
false confidence, even if you try your best to hide it, will come across as a
barely disguised nervousness.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron)

One of the things that I've observed while watching some pick-up artists
practice is that those who eventually become "successful" are basically asking
nothing of those who approach. They don't fear rejection. In fact, they can be
quite entertaining and good listeners. However, for most of these individuals,
they probably had to go through a lot of rejections to get to the point where
they didn't honestly care what the reaction was.

2) The hover zone/kill zone

Commonly used in pick-up artist terminology. This is easily described as
wanting to talk to a specific individual, even approaching within several
feet, yet not doing it. I know we've all done this, at some point, at a bar or
even at a friend's party. You know the person knows that you are interested in
them.

3) Reciprocity

In one of Pedro Almodovar's movies, in the director's commentary on the DVD,
there is a man in a woman's apartment who is looking through his host's stuff.
The director makes a statement along the lines that "liking without
reciprocity" makes it stalking (or worse).

In the very rare times, where a woman who has explicitly hit on me, asking
lots of questions, showing interest that is _out of norm_ with the pace of
conversation (e.g. we just met), I can attest that it feels creepy as in (What
have I done to make you so interested?). In more common circumstances, I
recall people who are seemingly interested in you but quickly steer the
conversation to something like network marketing.

Given these factors, what can be done to not come across as creepy?

First, don't hover. Talk to someone right away, even if it just a quick
introduction.

Second, being quiet can actively work against you in most social situations.
Especially when you are meeting new people. To this day, I can be enjoying a
party by meeting new people in a group and listening to their stories and
(usually) extroverts will ask if "are you having a good time?". Even if I am,
it doesn't outwardly show, at least in the manner they'd expect.

Third, the answer may lie in being mindful of reciprocity. For example,
talking to a cute individual, what is it about him/her/they that you find
interesting (that is not related to something she cannot easily change, like
her looks).

When I've talked to my good looking friend girls, they basically say they have
to ignore all the attention/cat calls when they walk down the street.

Fourth, to escape the friend zone, you have to make it explicitly clear that
you are interested in someone romantically and tell them why. Asking someone
out to coffee to talk about their job v. asking someone out to a picnic
because you like them.

One last side note - if you walk into a party with a couple good looking
friends (male or female), people will automatically ascribe a higher status to
you, whether you care to agree with the theory and practice of social proof or
not.

------
johntaitorg
I sort of explored this a few years ago in a story. A scientist creates
rabbit-human hybrids and it causes all kinds of problems precisely because
they can't be treated as animals and can't be treated as human.

[https://github.com/johngtait/mixie-
novel/blob/development/fr...](https://github.com/johngtait/mixie-
novel/blob/development/frankenrabbits.md)

------
Noos
The article isn't about the creepiness described in the comments here. It's
more about creepiness in general, like in clowns. It's pretty standard stuff
actually...creepiness isn't just physical threat, it's a sense of impurity or
a pollution of a thing's essence. Clowns are impure in the sense that they are
humans gone wrong, with waxlike and distorted features.

~~~
afarrell
I think a lot of people have a lot of anxiety around the concept of creepiness
and when something that looks like an opportunity to try to discuss and maybe
resolve this anxiety presents itself in a community where they feel at home,
they jump to discussion.

Of course, an openly-readable Internet forum is a risky place to open yourself
up emotionally.

------
afarrell
When going from riding a bicycle to learning to drive a car, it is very easy
to feel a lot of anxiety about it. After all, driving a car on American roads
is a very morally strange thing: you are in fact imposing upon other people a
risk of death or lifelong-debilitating injury. And you have to work to accept
this. Of course you can and should avoid exacerbating that: only drive when
sober and well-rested. Don't text and drive. Don't have complex discussions
when driving. Scan your mirrors for bikes and motorcyclists. But as long as
you are going to get up and go to work, you cannot reduce risk to 0%. And you
have to work to accept this. There are even things you can do to actively be
much better than most drivers: do the Dutch Reach[1] when you open your door.
Spend $10 on a wide-angle mirror[2]. But ultimately you are still imposing an
increased risk of death on others. And you have to work to accept this.

Likewise, when going from reading things like
[http://tinyurl.com/schrodingers-rapist](http://tinyurl.com/schrodingers-
rapist), or various blogs written by and for those on the receiving end of
stalking and street harassment, it is very easy to feel a lot of anxiety about
the possibility of creeping someone out. But humans are strange and varied
people who have all sorts of backgrounds and perceptions. And you have to work
to accept this. You still must avoid doing things that will cause a reasonable
predictive model of people to feel fear: Keep a situationally-reasonable
distance from people. Don't shout things at people on the street. Don't
present sexual/romantic intent to someone with a high cost to removing
themselves from the situation. There are ways you can trade time/money or your
preferences for other's comfort if you choose: learn to choose and wear nicer
clothing. Speak in a slightly higher pitch. Avoid facial hair or tattoos. Have
a friend smell-check you if your nose is impaired. But ultimately, people
percieve things in different ways and some might perceive you as a threat. And
you have to work to accept this.

[1] [https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/09/08/this-cyclist-
wa...](https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/09/08/this-cyclist-wants-
drivers-dutch-reach/V2Ei5bEiOCfU6ubxX1r8VN/story.html) [2]
[https://www.amazon.com/Fit-System-RM011-Clip-
Mirror/dp/B001A...](https://www.amazon.com/Fit-System-RM011-Clip-
Mirror/dp/B001A0J2JO)

------
crumpled
The article states a couple times: "cognitive paralysis is what generates the
sensation of creepiness."

It's the most confident statement in the article, but without supplying a
reference. Can this be validated?

------
Jerry2
I found this essay interesting:

> _It’s not “creepy” if he’s hot. I freely admit it. When a very attractive
> stranger approaches me and tells me I’m beautiful, it brightens my day. When
> a guy who is short, fat or balding does it, it makes my skin crawl no matter
> how tactful he is about it. I just want him to go away. I’m not alone in
> feeling this way. Most women feel the same, but hide the true extent of it
> when the guys are around._

[http://theplacetorant.com/ugly-creepy-guys/](http://theplacetorant.com/ugly-
creepy-guys/)

~~~
acaciapalm
That's an over the top rant, but as a woman I agree with her basic premise:
the "women are less visual" thing is a total lie and tied neatly into the
"women desire sex less than men" lie.

Looks are important to many women just as they are important to many men.
There's nothing to be ashamed of and there is no point in denying human
sexuality.

~~~
throw2016
Its not provocative. Its silly and absurd. Stating you have visual preferences
is like stating you prefer oxygen. This is innate and widely accepted as
normal and unremarkable across human society.

Is there an underlying assumption 'women are less visual'? It's seems like a
bit of a straw man because no one can and should generalize.

The next bits about 'knowing your place' puts the author in the enlightening
company of a cave man teling women to 'know their place'. I wonder how many
will be lining up to defend that.

Self proclaiming yourself as 'good looking' is problematic in itself because
this is purely subjective beyond a 1% that everyone widely agree on. To then
use this self created pedestal to dismiss and reduce others suggests a
unnatural degree of narcissism and likely necessitates a large leap from
reality.

~~~
acaciapalm
>Is there an underlying assumption 'women are less visual'? It's seems like a
bit of a straw man because no one can and should generalize.

There is, at least in American culture. It is wrong of course.

------
qrendel
Just take comfort in knowing that female attractiveness usually drops off a
cliff far earlier than male attractiveness does. The same girl writing that
essay will one day be 40+ and begging for any of those "genetic superiors" to
give her five seconds, while the same male "uggo" with a stable income and
decent hygiene will be able to take his pick of a bunch of nicer women who
didn't view the whole of humanity through the lens of the beautiful people
master race.

~~~
dang
Actually, you can't comment like this here. It's one thing to post
inflammatory rants about flamewar topics (like a bunch of others have done in
this thread); significantly worse to conjure up nasty things on others and
gloat; but adding a personal attack element into the mix crosses into bannable
offense. Please don't post like this to HN again.

We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12536861](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12536861)
and marked it off-topic.

------
visakanv
I found this reddit comment interesting:

> [–][deleted] 3796 points 2 years ago*x2

Lots of Indian dudes are great guys. Most, even. Smart, funny, sociable, kind,
handsome, eyes to kill for, the works.

But just as with every group, some aren't. Some are creeps. Usually creeps
have no idea that they're creeps, don't understand why they're creeps, and get
mad when people call them creeps. So why are Indian dudes so often creeps?
Well, for the same reasons any guy is a creep, with a few cultural factors
thrown in. I'll try to explain why in a way that encompasses creepdom as a
whole, and which I think might be comprehensible to creeps. Now, if I could
establish an informal Creepiness Quotient to describe the feeling someone
gives you in the first few seconds they're hitting on you, I would do it as
follows.

Creepiness = ( (Awkwardness x Forwardness) / (Attractiveness) ) ^ Persistence

Now, let's look at the factors here, with "you" being a nonspecific potential
creep who is hitting on "me," a nonspecific person of sexual interest:

Awkwardness is the extent to which you demonstrate your inability to operate
effectively in my chosen social environment. A person who cannot initiate or
maintain a comfortable conversation with me is an unappealing choice of
partner. Immigrants often score highly on Awkwardness, which is natural--
they're working in an unfamiliar social environment. I think that's
unfortunate, because usually it's not at all their fault.

Forwardness is the extent to which you convey that your goal is purely to use
me as a sex-thing. If I think you like me because I'm interesting, this is
noncreepy and good. If I think you like me because my part fits your part,
that is creepy and bad. Men from some cultures tend to be more forward than
men from others, depending on the appropriate gender roles in their societies.
In my own personal experience, Indians are high on the Forwardness list. I'm
not remotely qualified to offer a guess as to why, beyond "lol culture" which
is not explanatory of anything.

Attractiveness is a saving grace! Maybe you're hot, maybe you've got a great
voice, maybe you've got nice arms, maybe you told a great joke, maybe I like
your clothes, maybe you belong to the same subculture I do. Maybe you aren't
an obese scuzzlord with halitosis who smells like BO and salmonella. Rules #1
and #2 aren't all there is, but they definitely help. I don't think your
ethnicity makes you more or less likely to be attractive as a rule, though
some individual people have some degree of preference.

Persistence is bad news. Persistence is when you don't take "no" for an
answer. Persistence is when you apply pressure, is when you get aggressive or
defensive, and is when you demand explanations for why I won't date you. At
high levels, persistence is when you start to give off rape vibes. Persistence
is what you get when someone believes they are entitled to sex with me or
entitled to a relationship with me, and my opinion on the matter is an
inconvenience. Persistence is a creepiness multiplier. An awkward,
unattractive dude who says "ey, you got nice tits, I got a nice dick, so,
wanna fuck" then leaves when I say no? He's creepy, yes. A dude who is
otherwise normal but who won't leave me alone? Way creepier. In my experience,
this is where so many Indian guys lose it: the entitlement/persistence factor.
Begin with traditional gender roles, teach them to a child of a rich
businessman in a society with sharply defined social classes, who has always
gotten everything he wants, and who is somewhat inclined to see people 'below'
him as less deserving of consideration. Then turn that child into a STEMlord
engineering student who has had minimal successful contact with actual human
beings. That's a recipe for a guy who thinks he deserves women but doesn't
have any idea about how to 'get' them. So he gets persistent, because hey,
that's how you succeed at anything, right, you just find what you want and
take it? And now he's creepy as fuck.

This whole thing is of course not limited to Indian dudes. Any guy can be a
creeper, for similar reasons as above. But if you're asking why so many Indian
students in Western universities are creepers, well, that's why: unfamiliarity
with their new nation's social norms and gender roles (Awkwardness and
Forwardness) combined with a disturbing sense of entitlement and an inability
to handle disappointment (Persistence) means high creepiness. EDIT: Women can
be creeps too, of course. In the above, I assume the creep is a man, partially
for ease of pronoun use, and partially as an reflection of the relatively
higher incidence of male creeps.

\-
[https://www.reddit.com/r/cringepics/comments/21gf9b/i_get_mo...](https://www.reddit.com/r/cringepics/comments/21gf9b/i_get_more_pussy_than_u_ever_will/cgd2x3b)

~~~
dang
Please don't do this here. See
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12544564](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12544564)
for why.

