
Base salaries offered to software engineers in SF, NYC, and Seattle - Harj
https://triplebyte.com/software-engineer-salary
======
beneichler
Ben from Triplebyte here, I'm the engineer who built this tool from our offer
data.

The finding that most surprised me was that the mean salary for an engineer
without a college degree is only $3k (~2%) less than for those with one; this
gap is much smaller than in the labor market as a whole. One explanation is
that CS really is a field where educational signaling doesn't (or at least
needn't) matter as much as in other industries - we recently discussed this
with Bryan Caplan over on our blog ([https://triplebyte.com/blog/bryan-caplan-
interview](https://triplebyte.com/blog/bryan-caplan-interview)). I'm self-
taught and don't have a CS degree, but I do have a college degree which still
opens doors. I'd be curious to hear from other developers without a formal
background on this.

Boot-camp grads average $19k less - but $130k is still quite a bit higher than
I've seen bootcamps advertising. Could this be indicating that they're at a
disadvantage in the normal hiring process just for signaling reasons?

~~~
esoterica
> The finding that most surprised me was that the mean salary for an engineer
> without a college degree is only $3k (~2%) less than for those with one;
> this gap is much smaller than in the labor market as a whole.

The sample set of people using TripleByte is not going to be remotely
representative of the market for developers as a whole. Candidates with
stronger resumes are not going to be using third party recruiters to spray
their resume around; they are going to be applying directly to the companies
they want to work at or getting headhunted by the companies themselves.

~~~
stale2002
> Candidates with stronger resumes are not going to be using third party
> recruiters

This is an interest statement.

It is interesting, because the data I am seeing is that apparently Triple Byte
is able to give people quite successful results. (Yes, 150k base salary is
pretty good).

But your statement seems to imply that candidates that use them are apparently
below average or something. And yet even though they arent as good candidates,
they are apparently able to give people really good results, despite that.

Is my barometer for tech salaries so off, that apparently people believe that
150k base isn't something that a "stronger" candidate might receive? Yes, I've
heard of some high salaries, but I still wouldn't call this something to scoff
at

~~~
nxlouie
I agree. I'd also say Triplebyte's interview process is pretty challenging,
more so than big 4 etc for entry level. Being able to pass it is something I'd
consider a strong signal.

~~~
akgerber
Really? I found it pretty straightforward, personally. It helped that you'd be
able to retake the interview if you failed, which isn't usually true for phone
screens. It also helped that it was a large sample of questions about how a
computer worked, as opposed to most phone screens which are a single tech
question that you can get lucky or unlucky on.

(I tried Triplebyte's process this job hunt but ended up getting my current
job through a personal connection instead)

------
garyguo110
It's nice to know what a competitive base salary is for an engineer but when
negotiating an offer I think you really should be looking at Total
Compensation. RSU, Stock Options, Bonuses all play a very significant role
when looking at offers. Especially if you work at one of the large tech
companies (Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc) the stock grants are a VERY large
portion of your compensation.

~~~
jalgos_eminator
You should, but it looks like triplebyte was explicitly ignoring that because
it would add too many dimensions to the graph and those benefits are hard to
value. Stock options are not a liquid asset, and their value can change wildly
and unpredictably. Ask all those programmers around in 2001 how much their
options were worth.

~~~
galazzah
Stocks are a major part of compensation for tech companies. Looking at just
salary is an incomplete picture and also isn't fair for job-seekers. Fwiw this
page has compensation data with break down by RSU, bonus, etc:
[https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html](https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html)

~~~
fatnoah
Very true. I work at a non-FAANG, non-West Coast company and my initial job
offer was 55/45 cash to stock ratio. Due to stock appreciation, that's changed
to 45/55 cash to stock. Including only base compensation makes no sense.

My current base salary is exactly the same as it was at my last startup, but
my income has more than doubled.

------
_throwawayyyyy1
I'm in Boston & went through an intensive FT job search here about 18 months
ago. I'm a mobile developer with 20+ years total experience in desktop,
backend, web+mobile, product management, started my own company, etc.

Worked with lots of recruiters, personal network etc., felt like I really got
a sense of what the salary landscape is here. Some facts:

\- I was leaving a job at a hot unicorn startup that paid $125K base and I was
told I was one of the highest paid engineers on staff (20+ engineers)

\- I received 2 offers during this job search (was very selective else could
have gotten many, many more)

\- First offer: IOS developer at very large consulting firm for $120K base
(with possibility of small bonus).

\- Second offer: IOS developer position that was comparable in interest to
first. Decided to "shoot for the moon" and ask for $145K. They agreed, and
that's where I'm (happily) working now.

According to this study, SW engineers with my level of experience in these
cities are making $181K on _average_! From what I could see that's just not
available here to the rank and file, "average" experienced sw engineer. That
salary would be more like top-of-range here.

Am I doing something wrong? Is Boston really that different than
Seattle/NYC/SF?

~~~
shepardrtc
Having lived in Seattle and knowing several software engineers at various
companies, I would have to say Triplebyte's numbers are being inflated by the
FAANG companies. I have one friend at Microsoft that is making probably 160 to
180ish right now, and another friend at a startup that is making between 80
and 100. Most other engineers make around what you've been offered. I really
would take Triplebyte's numbers with a grain of salt.

~~~
seattle_spring
80 to 100 is insultingly low for even a startup in Seattle. Sure, some are
able to get away with it like Energysavvy, but only bottom tier engineers
should put up with it.

~~~
ptmcc
Why can EnergySavvy get away with it?

~~~
seattle_spring
Because there are enough people that don't know their own market value to fill
their ranks, I guess.

------
jcadam
Years of experience tops out at "8+"? An engineer that started working at 22
is barely 30 by the time they reach that experience level. Is 8 years really
the point where additional experience ceases to have a meaningful effect on
salary? Or do these three cities (SF/NYC/Seattle) just do a pretty good job of
expelling software engineers after they attain their first gray hair?

~~~
maccio92
It's the latter.

~~~
nostrademons
I don't think that's really the case, but I do think it's common for good
software engineers to move into other job titles (whether it's "founder" or
"management" or "architect" or "software consultant" or a deep specialization
in a particular subfield of software like security, deep learning, data
science, data mining, compilers, databases, graphics, etc.) where they can
avoid the salary cap. There's an adverse selection effect on those that don't;
employers are likely to ask to themselves "Why are you still making $150K/year
as an employee rather than $500K/year as a consultant, $2M/year as a deep
learning specialist, or have retired as a founder? Did you never develop any
sort of deep expertise worth paying you for in your 8 years as a software
engineer?"

People going into software should plan accordingly. You get great wages to
start, but you need to save some of those for a potentially risky mid-career
transition where you specialize in a particular subfield.

~~~
scarface74
That is only true in the HN bubble of SV. No one would bat an eye at someone
_only_ making $150K in almost any major city in the US outside of the west
coast and NYC.

------
Benjammer
(OT thoughts on Triplebyte)

I think Triplebyte is stuck between a few incentives that aren't necessarily
aligned with developers, and I'm not sure how to decide how I feel about their
contributions overall to the job market for software.

I absolutely love their outreach and data like this where they try to empower
developers more.

My problem I have is that they entered the market using the same exact worn-
out old methods that everyone has been trying to use to hire for software
forever. They do a timed coding challenge, they ask we-need-to-hear-the-right-
answer quiz questions about both algorithms, and topic-specific areas for
web/mobile/back end.

All they've done is dress everything up in fancy clothes and used an interface
UX tuned towards developer's sensibilities. They absolutely bombard all major
programming related internet sites/communities with their stupid click-bait
"only 2% of green-skinned back end browser developers living at least 100ft
above sea level get this question right!!!!111!1!1one1!" ads. Their initial,
multiple-choice "gotcha!" quiz should be passed by a second year CS (or any
eng.) student with a tiny amount of thought, but it makes developers feel like
they've already just "beat" someone else out and "accomplished" something and
it plays a psychological game with them to get them to commit to the extended
live interview. (It worked on me!)

Do they have data about how their candidates perform after hire? 2 yr
performance reviews? 2 yr turnover rates? How do they market to the recruiters
who are their true "customers"?

To me their product seems like something that hiring managers and in-house
recruiters can use to remove liability for bad hires. Has anyone ever worked
with them through recruiting to see if the value proposition is there for
eliminating bad phone screens? I don't think initial phone screens are
terribly difficult to do for a senior engineer with experience, to root out
red flags. Is it a better value prop on your expensive on-site interview slots
to trust Triplebyte? Or your own internal senior engineers/hiring managers?

I'm not saying that Triplebyte has direclty nefarious intentions or anything
like that. I just am no sure I see how their incentives are aligned with me as
a developer, in quite the same way they market as ("We are god's gift to
developers").

~~~
sciencewolf
> Do they have data about how their candidates perform after hire? 2 yr
> performance reviews? 2 yr turnover rates? How do they market to the
> recruiters who are their true "customers"?

Software engineering hiring, and Triplebyte as a company, at least think
about, and make an attempt to evaluate these concerns. Have you ever seen how
non-technical people (sales/marketing/finance) are evaluated? I'd argue
Triplebyte at least moves the needle a bit versus in other fields.

~~~
Benjammer
Do they have any data about it? Or blogs or something? I'd be super curious to
read thoughts directly from Triplebyte on this, if they have any public
material out there.

------
esoterica
Base salary is a pretty useless statistic in tech. Almost all higher paying
jobs are going to have a large component of the compensation in equity or
discretionary bonuses.

~~~
shmerl
That pretty much depends. Imagine a startup that offers stock options, which
you only can use, if it ever goes public. And in the end it doesn't (for
example it's bought), and resulting amount you get as compensation for those
options is a lot lower than what it could be from the public scenario. So it's
simply a gamble. While base salary is a solid metric.

------
korethr
Interesting to see that this is not a normal distribution. The modal salary is
closer to $135k, the median $146k, and as we see labelled, the mean at $149.
Not the idealized bell curve taught about in statistics class. That long tail
on the right side is pulling the mean up and away from the mode and median.

Honestly, I'm not sure why I expected a classic bell curve instead of a long
right tail.

Edit: playing with the data, looking at some of the sub-distributions, (e.g.
front-end engineers with 3-5 years experience at all company sizes) do look a
bit closer to normal distributions, but in many, there's still that long tail
to the right.

Now, what to do with this information? Perhaps I can play it to my advantage
when attempting to negotiate a raise or a salary with a new company.

~~~
dilyevsky
It’s likely bi- or multi-modal with secondary hump masked away due to sampling
skew or something

------
frakkingcylons
Kudos to TripleByte for their efforts in making this kind of compensation
information public! I referenced it during my last performance review
discussion in an effort to negotiate for a raise that would bring my comp more
in line with what was listed as the median in TripleByte's data.

I was pretty firm on insisting on a bigger raise based on that data, after
which my boss's boss came in with the big guns. They had a spreadsheet of
compensation data collected by investors in the startup, and this data was
collated across all their (and other) portfolio companies.

It was broken down by total funding, company size, years of experience, role,
all that. IIRC, it was Option Impact: [https://www.advanced-
hr.com/](https://www.advanced-hr.com/). I wish I could've looked at it more,
such interesting information with specific numbers. Of course, that will never
be made public, much to the detriment of the workers in tech.

~~~
ptmcc
I just left my company that swore up and down that they work hard to pay
competitive market salaries. They claim to have all this fancy compensation
market data compiled by experts. I don't know why they trust this data so
much, but it consistently shows lower salaries than even Glassdoor or
Payscale, which tend to be lower than surveys like this one.

They don't criminally underpay or anything, but they are on the low side of
average and I've been insisting that they are 20-30% under market on just base
salary alone for high caliber people. No RSUs and there's some cash bonuses
(maybe up to ~10%) and other near-cash perks but nothing super significant.

Well, jokes on them, I just accepted a new non-FAANG gig for a nearly-25% base
salary increase, plus a significant initial RSU grant of ~1.5x salary, plus
other bonus potential. And I'm more excited about the company and work anyway.

It's bananas out there right now, go get it while you can.

------
many_indicator
I imagine the signaling is partly due to the selective admissions processes at
elite universities. MIT, Stanford, Harvard already vetted for you, so surely
you must be intelligent, driven and cut above the rest.

But I wonder if there are recent studies on the demographics of who attends
elite universities in general? I'd assume it is mostly kids from the upper
middle class to upper class backgrounds.

These sort of places pat themselves on the back for saying they do target
minorities and the less privileged, but they have such an insurmountable
background to overcome they may never make it to such schools, despite being
smart enough to attend.

You may miss people like: [https://www.uidaho.edu/engr/news/features/tom-
mueller](https://www.uidaho.edu/engr/news/features/tom-mueller)

~~~
beneichler
indeed, or even people like: [https://triplebyte.com/blog/how-i-got-a-
software-engineering...](https://triplebyte.com/blog/how-i-got-a-software-
engineering-job-without-experience-or-a-cs-degree)

------
cm2012
This just shows how game changing bootcamps and the like are. People with no
software background can go from no experience to a job paying 130k a year with
a year of training. That's downright miraculous.

~~~
JoshTko
I'm not sure that this is what this data means. This report seems to be based
on a very specific dataset of Triplebyte registered accounts. There are
probably far more bootcamp grads that do not work as a developer and/or not
registered on Triplebyte that are unaccounted for. Even bootcamp sites are
probably inflating their salaries by only reporting those that graduates AND
got a job in SWE.

~~~
cm2012
But still - an appreciable amount of bootcamp grads are factually making this
amount of salary. Even if it's not the average, it's still amazing.

------
crsv
Isn't it in triplebtyte's interest for these numbers to be inflated? The data
seems to be at the heart of a conflict of interest, as it would not be in the
author's interest for these numbers to be lower than anticipated. I don't
really trust "research", or just "data" in this case coming from a party that
has a very direct interest in the results being one thing over another.

------
jorblumesea
Base comp isn't a great metric because it widely varies based on compensation
schema.

For exmaple, Amazon has a cap on base (I think it's 160k) and provides huge
amounts of stock beyond that. I'd imagine it's a similar story for many
companies.

Total comp is a far more realistic and accurate measurement.

~~~
sjg007
If they say they have a cap, it's probably just smoke and mirrors.

~~~
jorblumesea
No, Amazon literally has a real hard cap on salaries. Everything else above
that cap is stock. This is true for even seniors and execs.

------
mushtar
Looking at just base salary is not useful at all for FAANG, since they all
operate on total compensation. At Amazon for example, the salary is capped at
$165k for all employees in Seattle (including SVP, VP, and director level).

~~~
shmerl
And FAANG use case is not as useful for everyone else, because it's so
specific. Base salary is a good metric in a general case.

------
screye
I am not sure about these numbers.

These base estimates are much higher than what sites like Levels.fyi and
anecdotal numbers I've collected from my new grad peers.

At the new grad level, Base salary numbers are $125-135k:Google,
$105-115k:MSFT,Amazon,FB. The base salary numbers at other unicorns don't
sound much different either.

I am not saying that TB's numbers are wrong. But, there has to be some reason
for the huge difference in the numbers I've heard vs the ones TB reports.

~~~
pmalynin
The numbers look pretty legit. This is coming from a new grad with multiple
offers.

~~~
screye
Would you be willing to share the companies that pay above 130 base for their
median or even 75th percentile new grad in the Bay Area ? (assuming the bonus,
signing and stock are in line with that of the Big-N companies)

~~~
pmalynin
I can give you more details if you email me.

------
trevor-e
If you're working at a company that has multiple offices around the country
(say SF, NYC, Boston), is it unreasonable to ask for the same compensation
that a worker in the most expensive office gets? Assuming the
role/responsibilities will be the same and the team consists of people from
all offices.

~~~
joshuamorton
You can ask. That doesn't mean you'll get what you want.

Are you going to refuse a job offer because it pays less than some arbitrary
bar, even if it's the best offer you have?

------
seizethecheese
I'm shocked that the salaries are so similar between Seattle and SF. Does this
ring true for y'all?

~~~
crowbahr
Seattle's tech market isn't super diverse. It's Amazon and Microsoft dominated
with less of the startup VC culture that SF has.

So you see 95% of those salaries are just MS/AMZ

~~~
seattle_spring
I mean... FB alone has something like 3k engineers in Seattle. Google is
almost done with a campus that will house 10k in addition to their already
large Fremont and Kirkland footprints. Zillow, Redfin, Expedia, and others all
have HQs in the greater Seattle area. Unicorns like Stripe, Lyft, Uber, and
Airbnb all have offices here.

You really think that, with all that, Amazon and Microsoft make up 95% of high
salaried jobs in Seattle?

~~~
bradlys
Maybe what they're trying to say is that it's the established big companies
that are inflating the numbers. I'm not surprised by the numbers because I'm
pretty sure big companies dominate the statistics. (And they pay similarly as
to SF)

------
S_A_P
I live in Houston, and I would say most senior (10+ year) full stack
developers probably make what your 0-3 year front end developers make. In
Houston, ~130k is enough to live an upper middle class life, what does that
look like in NY, SF and Seattle?

~~~
cimmanom
These salaries for NY look high to me, and there’s almost no variation based
on experience. Whereas in my experience hiring here, entry level is $60-80k
and seniors command around $150k.

Now, that’s for startups. Banks will pay twice that.

I’m wondering what the medians look like - the means being displayed may be
distorted by the finance and Google outliers.

Edited to add: $60k is a middle class salary for a single person in NYC.
(Though people who are unaccustomed to small apartment living / the idea of
singles having roommates / the idea that middle class means having to
compromise on some expenses will complain otherwise.) I wouldn’t want to try
to raise a family of 4 here on that income, though.

$130k is definitely upper middle class for a single person, but a family of 4
on that income is going to have to live way outside the hip areas of the outer
boroughs in order to be able to afford housing.

------
RandallBrown
Recently made a switch from Seattle to NYC and was actually a bit surprised
that the salaries in NYC were lower. People at my job didn't really believe
me, so it's nice to have some numbers to back up my feelings.

~~~
DevX101
Not that surprising. Seattle is HQ to two of the largest sofware companies in
the world, with 1/3 the population of NYC. Wouldn't be surprised that the
supply/demand gap for qualified engineers is greater in Seattle than NYC

------
samjbobb
Interesting. But why can't I filter by city? I'd like to see the percentile
plot but restricted to New York. I imagine that the shape and peak of that
plot would be different for each city.

------
scarface74
So I filtered by 8+ years of experience, back end developer and small
companies assuming they wouldn’t have RSUs. Equity in a non public company is
worthless to me because of the chances of them being worthless.

The salaries just aren’t that impressive for the cities in question. I can
make that in much lower cost of living areas of the country.

------
Apocryphon
Probably too granular, but I wish one of these tools was able to compare
salaries in S.F. itself with the Bay Area as a whole. I've heard that
positions in the city pay greater than those in Silicon Valley, but I don't
know how accurate that is.

------
themagician
It’s so interesting to see actual data that confirms what most people might
suspect, instead of what you see here on HN where people talk about $200k+
base being “not that unusual”.

~~~
bluedevilzn
The data is on average base salary. Nearly half of my total comp is stock plus
guaranteed bonus. That's how my total comp is $200k+ with 1 yoe at a low CoL
city.

~~~
ams6110
If a bonus is guaranteed, how is it a bonus? Just because it's a big year-end
extra payment?

~~~
fabricexpert
It’s never guaranteed, you have to wait all year for it, if you leave in
December you get nothing, banks don’t value it as highly, you can’t pay your
bills with it until you get it

------
dboreham
How do get the job classification correct? (Employees are notoriously poor at
self-reporting their own job level correctly).

------
lsc
out of curiosity, how come you measure base, rather than total comp? are the
bonus and RSU comp pretty similar among top-tier companies?

It seems like only comparing base makes it harder to compare smaller companies
(which usually give you all your comp as base) with larger companies (where
30% seems to be rsu and bonus)

------
halis
That's sad. For the senior levels, you can almost make that much in St. Louis.

~~~
jordache
yeah that money goes way further than in SF. WTF?

~~~
mtnGoat
getting big city coastal salary without living there is pretty awesome!

------
dilyevsky
Lol 8+ yeo makes like 30% more than someone with 0-3 yoe. This is some funny
shit!

~~~
goobynight
Maybe in just base salary

~~~
dilyevsky
Yeah i know which is why this survey is basically useless imo.

------
nolawi89
i have no degree. I am a FE 10 years experience in DC. I make only 150k but
without seeing this data for my city. which is probably about 5-8% lower than
NYC.

------
ChicagoDave
You need to add housing costs to the calculation.

------
povertyworld
I like how 0-3 years experience has no salary.

------
leowoo91
Believe in what you see 101

