
Why an eight-hour bus ride from Los Angeles to San Francisco might beat a flight - edward
https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2017/08/life-slow-lane?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/whyaneighthourbusridefromlosangelestosanfranciscomightbeataflight
======
Doctor_Fegg
> the current route is a perfect example of that awkward travel distance to
> which there is no good solution. Others abound, such as Washington-Boston or
> London-Edinburgh

There is a very good sleeper train, the Caledonian Sleeper, between London and
Edinburgh (and several other points in Scotland). That's a "good solution" for
that route, and I'm more than a little surprised that the London-based
Economist seems not to have heard of it.

[https://www.sleeper.scot/](https://www.sleeper.scot/)

~~~
rustoo
Such buses are quite common in India too. Many people prefer sleeper buses
even though the prices are similar to flights. One reason is that they have to
travel to the airport (city a) and then travel from the airport (city b).

A couple of interesting links:

[http://www.indiatimes.com/boyz-toyz/cars-and-
bikes/sleeper-a...](http://www.indiatimes.com/boyz-toyz/cars-and-
bikes/sleeper-ac-volvo-bus-service-from-maharashtra-to-bangalore-rolls-
out-81803-1.html)

[http://www.deccanherald.com/content/599348/scania-
drive-1st-...](http://www.deccanherald.com/content/599348/scania-drive-1st-
sleeper-bus.html)

~~~
visarga
I'm wondering why airports don't try to monopolize airport taxi business. It's
the logical extension of traveling from point A to B end-to-end.

~~~
Nrsolis
What makes you think they haven't?

In the DC area, there is a single provider of taxi service from Dulles Airport
(IAD).

[http://www.flydulles.com/iad/washington-flyer-taxi-
service](http://www.flydulles.com/iad/washington-flyer-taxi-service)

Any other taxi service trying to pick up fares from IAD are violating the
contract between the Metro Washington Airport Authority and Dulles Taxi.

~~~
mgkimsal
> Any other taxi service trying to pick up fares from IAD are violating the
> contract between the Metro Washington Airport Authority and Dulles Taxi.

Why would I care if I've violated a contract between two other parties?

~~~
hmahncke
Dulles airport police will not let other taxis pick up passengers at Dulles.

~~~
Nrsolis
YUP.

REMEMBER: A taxi medallion is a component of a government-enforced monopoly on
regional transportation for hire.

One of the great achievements of Uber is highlighting the gap between what's
possible when a company is able to compete freely in the marketplace that's
been effectively ruined by government.

Before Uber, the taxi companies had ZERO incentive to improve their product.
You had no choice when choosing a cab company. Now you do.

------
clamprecht
"The drivers intentionally go slowly and take back roads so that the trip,
normally six hours, lasts eight."

Why not just get there 2 hours early, park, and sit for 2 hours. This would
(1) reduce vehicle motion, so you can sleep better, and (2) allow people who
aren't asleep anyway to get out early if they want. It may also save gas,
although once buses are electric, this becomes less of a factor.

~~~
arnarbi
Driving slower might quite possibly save on fuel, even if it takes longer.
Parking a bus that long where it is convenient for the early risers to get off
isn't necessarily easy either.

Plus, as others mention, you'd wake everyone else up.

~~~
elif
Agreed. When you get into the part of the efficiency scale where aero
dominates, it becomes an exponential cost increase for speed. 60mph and 68mph
are night and day in a school bus.

------
kwhitefoot
This is like the night train I used to take from Oslo to Trondheim. It's about
660 km and takes less than an hour by air. But I live a taxi and train ride
from the airport and my final destination is a two hour drive north of
Trondheim.

To get there before lunch I would have to get up before five in the morning
and I would arrive tired or I could leave home at 21:00 the night before catch
the night train at 23:30 and arrive in Trondheim at 07:00 catch the train to
Steinkjer and be there by 10:30 refreshed after a good night's sleep and a
civilized breakfast.

~~~
brockwhittaker
Not to mention the trains are incredibly smooth. Took the train from Trondheim
to Bodø, woke up a few hours in and didn’t know we were moving until I took a
snapchat of my face in the dark train and saw a speed of over 200km/h.

------
williamle8300
One of the missing points: convenience. Taking a bus "feels" like less of a
hassle. Nobody likes having to deal with authorities (check-in people, the
TSA). Taking a bus means you have more control over the terms of your trip.

While raw time-to-destination is important, people are also looking for
emotional expenditure savings too.

------
aphextron
This is an advertisement, and it's been re-posted in a few different forms
now.

------
dopeboy
I make this commute pretty often (albeit to Orange County, not LA) and I've
been following these guys for awhile.

I was under the impression their price would be a lot less than a flight.
Their price roundtrip is $230. A roundtrip flight from SF to LA usually runs
$160-$350 depending on how far in advance you book it. Taking the $350 ceiling
- is a $120 savings enough to justify a ~6 hour difference?

It's still a great idea - but price it cheaper like < 100 RT.

~~~
cvsh
It also potentially eliminates the need for 1-2 nights of hotel rooms.
Depending on your travel situation, that might be more convenient.

~~~
et-al
Except in this case we're talking about SF/LA, which is only an hour-long
flight.

I do this flight every other month or so and it's a breeze. You leave work a
bit early on Friday, get to the airport in about an hour, board the plane,
they serve you a drink, and the captain tells you to fasten your seatbelt
because we're descending.

It's 1 hour to the airport, 45 minutes through security, 1 hour in the air,
and another 45 min to my friend's house. So 3.5 hours, but round it up to 4
hours door to door. Sure, summer months have weather delays like low ceilings
at SFO, but otherwise it's one of the smoother journeys one can have.

I guess if you party in SF on Friday, and sleep and sober up on a midnight
bus, and go HAM all weekend in LA, then recharge on the return leg for Monday.
However, I'm too old for that and would much rather sleep in a proper bed.

~~~
matthewowen
Imagine that you aren't staying at a friend's house, but rather at a hotel or
AirBnB. Avoiding paying for one extra night instantly saves you money. And if
you don't expect to do much the night you arrive anyway, there's no real cost
(plus you don't have to leave work early, which may be advantageous).

~~~
et-al
I think in that case, I'd rather take an early morning flight like sologoub
mentioned.

And like dopeboy pointed out, if this was $100 RT, it would appeal to price
sensitive people. And regardless of how comfortable they make it, for many of
us in the States, it's still an 8-hour bus ride.

~~~
matthewowen
An SF flight that gets you to LA by 9am realistically requires you to leave
the house around 6am: wheels down at 8:30am, wheels up at 7:30am, boarding at
7am (if you want space for yr hand luggage), arrive at the airport by 6:30am,
leave the house at 6am. And those are fairly aggressive timings IMO.

I want to try this service, because if the sleep is really bad then I agree
that it's no use. But if it's even close to comparable to taking a sleeper
train, I'd much prefer it: I've always slept well on those, and I'd much
sooner not have the 5am start.

~~~
et-al
Few days late, sorry. Just wanted to say those are all good points. If it's
comparable to a sleeper train, like you mentioned, I agree that it could be a
feasible option.

------
archagon
I’ve taken Megabus from LA to SF (for like $20) and it’s one of the most
beautiful routes I’ve ever been on, especially from the observation seats on
the second floor. Just miles and miles of rolling, golden hills.

Sleeping through it seems like a waste.

~~~
seanp2k2
The 5 is horribly boring once you've done it a couple of times. It also smells
very badly (like cow blood + poop) for a long stretch. Hot, dry, high winds,
farms on both sides, just 2 lanes, cops around, many semis...

Door to door, driving is the same as the airport, but having a car in LA is
nice given the lack of public transit (Bay Area too).

~~~
tesseract
I usually opt for 101 if I can afford the slight extra driving time. I find it
much more pleasant in terms of both scenery (maybe that is the Megabus route?
"Rolling hills" sounds about right) and normal traffic conditions
(significantly less truck traffic).

~~~
dver23
I do the same with 99. Much of it has three lanes now so less issues being
stuck and mad passing by others. Ass in the chance for more stops along the
way. My cutoff is LA area, I'll drive there, but fly to San Diego.

------
nfriedly
My wife and I got a room on the California Zephyr train from SF to Chicago one
year and we loved it. So much less hassle than flying. Better food and scenery
too.

~~~
ghaff
I don't think I'd have the patience to go all the way from San Francisco to
Chicago. But I've definitely had my sights on doing the San Francisco to
Denver leg (or vice versa) at some point if the travel stars even lined up in
a way that made sense. I've also thought about the Empire Builder route as
part of a trip to Glacier.

~~~
matthewowen
That leg is definitely the most scenic part (although going through
Burlington, IA is also surprisingly neat).

------
mschuster91
In Germany, we have had a quite extensive network of night trains with proper
beds (and the more expensive tickets also have a shower in the carriage);
unfortunately the network got massively thinned out in the last years and only
the profitable core routes are in service now by Austrian ÖBB.

Shouldn't something like this be possible in America, especially between far-
away cities? Could at least be more profitable because you don't need to shunt
around carriages every couple hours and if it gets kept between hubs there's
no need for inter-route stops either.

~~~
FTA
Amtrak offers this with "roomettes" all the way up to 4-person rooms, though
whether it's an overnight or a day trip depends on your origin and destination
(for example, Chicago to Dallas is an overnight). You mention that Germany had
eliminated all but the profitable ones--well, the U.S. government loses money
on these routes to keep them running even in spite of the high prices. I'd
usually pay $800 roundtrip for CHI->DAL; meals _are_ included and you get I
believe up to two carry-ons and two checked bags for free.

I will say it is definitely a lower stress option. You can show up 30 minutes
before your train is leaving and there's no security lines. Depending on the
station, it could be just an empty train station in a rural town or a large
station interconnected with other transport services (e.g. Boston, Chicago).

The population you are traveling with is much different compared not only to
airlines but also coach on the train. Generally your sleeper carmates are
retired folks who don't want to deal with the hassle of TSA, running between
connections, arriving three hours early, and so on. I've met some extremely
nice people with amazing stories (you are seated with strangers at meals, so
this is almost forced on you). If you are not in a hurry and have a few extra
bucks, it's worth it at least once to experience the journey, especially
across the Upper Midwest or coasts.

~~~
mschuster91
> I'd usually pay $800 roundtrip for CHI->DAL;

By car (and Google Maps measuring) that's about 3.000km total. Hamburg-Munich
is about 1.500km total, so half the distance. But ÖBB Nightjet tickets start
for ~160€ to 250€ roundtrip, about half the price and Amtrak is losing money?

How is that even possible?

~~~
nine_k
You don't have to maintain the air you fly through, but you must maintain the
track you travel by. Unless there is a lot of freight traffic, the maintenance
will be more expensive than your income from tickets.

Europe is just much denser than US Midwest, so both passenger and freight
traffic is more intense for a unit of track length, thus more economical.

~~~
jetti
Just FYI ÖBB Nightjet is a train and not a plane. I looked it up to see
comparisons but I had the same assumption as you based on the name.

Also, Amtrak doesn't maintain the track that is up to the track owner to do
the maintenance. Amtrak does pay money to each track owner to use their tracks
but it isn't an access fee and it is incremental.

------
sixQuarks
I'd be too worried about a tired driver causing an accident while I'm in a
"sleeping pod" with no seatbelts, and potentially ramming head first into a
wall.

Honestly, I would consider this with a self-driving bus when the time comes.
For now, I know human nature too well to assume that all drivers had a nice
rest and can easily stay up 3rd shift fully alert.

~~~
chrischen
They could have done this as reclining seat overnight buses like they already
have in the rest of the world.

Also, buses have a large mass so collisions aren't that bad. That's why school
buses don't need seat belts.

~~~
arnarbi
That's only true if you hit smaller vehicles. Hitting other busses, trucks,
traffic structures, trees, or rolling over, is going to be just as bad.

------
buro9
This seems a little odd.

I fall asleep in vehicles as a passenger sometimes, but have that peace of
mind of being in a safety belt and with some air bags around me.

On a plane, an accident is unlikely to occur... same with a train.

I don't think I'd want to fully trust my life to a bus driver (and all of the
third parties out on the road that could trigger an incident on the road)
without some means to mitigate that risk.

But nothing on their site or literature seems to provide information on
personal safety were an incident to occur.

It seems bizarre to me that people would get into a vehicle for a long
overnight drive, and not demand a minimum degree of safety.

For a bus, maybe this would be something like airline style seats that fully
recline and offer comfortable belts and a single airbag.

This is all probably good for the US, but would be a non-starter in Europe.

~~~
koide
You know there are overnight busses in Europe, right? With barely a seat belt.

~~~
buro9
Must be older vehicles.

Seat belt installation has been mandatory for a number of years via EU
legislation (though each country had their own timetable I believe all do now
require new vehicles to be fitted with seat belts).

Seat belt use is mandatory on coaches (all passenger carrying vehicles), and
no exception would allow for permanently lying down... the only coach
exception is if temporarily out of seat.

Air bags are not mandatory other than in the cabin.

Required fitting directive (member states applied it in 2006): [http://eur-
lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM:...](http://eur-
lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM:l24274)

Mandatory use:
[https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/topics/vehicles/s...](https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/topics/vehicles/seat_belts_en)

------
jtraffic
The article says $230, but
[https://www.ridecabin.com/](https://www.ridecabin.com/) says $115. Am I
missing something? This makes quite a difference.

~~~
andbberger
Roundtrip

~~~
jtraffic
Yeah. When I looked initially, I didn't go far enough into checkout.

~~~
tomjakubowski
Their site's fare calendar is a dark pattern. Normally when searching for
round trip fares on, say, Google Flights, selecting the departure date from
the calendar shows the (lowest) round trip fare departing that date. When you
then select the return date, the (lowest) round trip fare departing on your
departure date and returning on your return date is shown.

Cabin's site shows you the one-way price both times even when booking a round-
trip. It's not until you click through that you see it's $115 each way.

------
johan_larson
If the problem with air travel on that distance isn't the flight itself but
the futzing around getting to and from the airport at each end, maybe _that_
is the problem that needs solving.

~~~
ghaff
Well, part of it is security. Which, whatever the specific faults of TSA,
isn't about to go away for air travel. Fortunately, in the US, trains are
still largely exempt.

The other issue is that airports tend to be just big and sprawling locations
well outside of city cores. So you have to build in lots of buffer for things
like parking. Or, if they're near cities, parking's expensive and often
scarce.

Finally (which COULD be dealt with to some degree) load factors and
cancellation policies are such that you really don't want to miss most flights
in a way that isn't typically as big a problem with trains.

------
ForHackernews
This article mentions the theoretical "hyperloop" but not normal, actually-
existent high speed rail as a solution for trips of this distance?

------
awjr
Ok I'm confused. Yes the journey is normally 6 hours, but the bus takes an 8
hour longer route. I've tried sleeper buses and one of the problems can be the
odd pothole nudging you awake.

I'd be happier for a bus to take the more direct route and then let me
disembark as I choose when I wake up or park up somewhere quiet for a couple
of hours.

------
SubiculumCode
Why has this story been pushed so hard? I've seen it in local stories all the
way to WaPost

------
efader
What about safety if the bus crashes?

------
cstoltenberg
It would be appropriate to compare this service to the under-construction
California High-Speed Rail. A more real comparison than the hyperloop.

~~~
burntrelish1273
_California High-Speed Rail_ is better known as _Obsolete, Slow-Speed Rail,
Pork-Barrel-Wealth Transfer Edition_. Even Homer Simpson could build a safer,
cheaper and more usable transport line than the unfortunate, wasteful
abomination that is CHSR.

------
ricky_kutch
It would be a great business between Sydney and Melbourne or Sydney and
Brisbane. When I was on secondment from London in Sydney I would often drive
to Melbourne. By the time I added up arising early, 45 minute taco ride to
airport, check in, clearing security, having brekkie then the flight, and
massive taxi queue plus 45 min ride into Melbourne it was less than 1hr
difference. I was comfortable, could stop and eat, see countryside on roads
with little traffic it was a joy!

------
marquis_wyman
There's something similar in Russia with trains. Minsk, Moscow and St
Petersburg form a triangle with about 8 hours of train time between each. A
colleague based in Minsk used to do week long trips with with only a night or
two in a hotel. I seem to recall that there were many trains to Moscow from St
Petersburg leaving between 11:00 PM and 1:00 AM.

------
valuearb
There is going to be a lot of sex in those pods. I'm not sure I want to be
next in one after.

~~~
Retric
The Same is true of hotel beds and that's generally not a problem.

~~~
MiddleEndian
It's kind of a problem, we just ignore it. I like staying at hotels but if I
try not to think too much about the state of the comforter.

