
France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools - non_sequitur
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/11/france-to-ban-mobile-phones-in-schools-from-september
======
Montezuma_II
I think this is a mainly positive move. Mobile phones are massive distractions
to children, especially in a school context. When it comes to young children,
I am skeptic to the use of digital technology in education in general. School
should help incorporate good habits into a child's routine, such as reading
books, and nailing reliance on phones into children is not something we want
to be doing in schools.

~~~
d13
If phones are providing children with a more stimulating experience than
school, the schools themselves should improve their product, rather than
banning the competition.

~~~
pixl97
If _pure sugar_ is providing children with more instant gratification,
_healthy food_ should improve their product by adding way more sugar and salt
too!

If _heroin_ is providing adults with a better escape, _real life_ should step
up its game!

Or, maybe we should teach our children a modicum of discipline.

~~~
zxd1098
Yeah, it’s called “Aiden! Don’t look at your phone while I’m talking. What did
I just say about multiplication tables?!”

~~~
pixl97
Yes, and after you say that to all 30 students you've wasted 1/3rd of your
class time.

------
germinalphrase
TLDR: As a high school level teacher, this would be less of a problem if
teachers had stronger enforcement powers. Since we often don't - I would
strongly favor a ban. If students need a computer, we have them available all
day, every day.

As a high school level teacher, I appreciate the attitude that there are
amazing opportunities for learning and skill development with computers. I
agree with this wholeheartedly. That said, a majority of my students are
addicted to social media (they are teenagers, after all) and _cannot_ self
moderate their attention and/or behavior on this issue. They are not,
generally, breaking their attention away from class for some other kind of
educational outlet (for which I am already fairly lenient when appropriate).
They are sending their friends snaps, plays both games, and texting.

Of course, using phones in class is already against school policy, but it will
remain and issue until I am able to take a phone away from a student. At a
prior school, this was explicitly against policy becuase it was considered a
liability issue as phones are expensive personal property that the school did
not want to be responsible for them. Additionally, parents give minimal
support and/or flip out when it happens. Very few have the willingness to keep
their student's phone at home during the school day even when it is a known
and acknowledged problem. Often, they simply don't want to argue with their
teen about it.

I believe that we - as a American culture - are still too enamoured with our
smart phones to effectively acknowledge the potential negative effects they
can have on our attention/learning/cognitive development.

~~~
criddell
At my kids' school, they encourage appropriate cell phone use in the school.
For example, if there is a homework assignment on the board, rather than wait
for everybody to copy it down, kids are told to take a picture of the board.
They also insist on the kids using some kind of calendar to track everything
and most kids use their phone calendar.

There's some kind of Twitter-like service that is used for teacher-student
communication and of course they use email and Google Docs a lot.

My kids have had assignments that involve making a movie and their phone is
their video camera.

If the kids want to use a computer, they can (they are all issued ThinkPads
that are frankly awful) but I think most kids would prefer to use their phones
when they can.

Also, the school has a pretty aggressive filter on the wifi so kids that want
to access the internet in the school end up using their phone to get access to
the things they need.

~~~
irrational
My children do not have cell phones (if they want one they can buy it and a
data plan themselves - so far that hasn't happened until they are about 18),
but teachers assume that every student has a cell phone. The teachers then ask
the kids to do things with their cell phones like you are describing. When my
kids say they don't have one they are not believed and receive failing grades
for the assignment. I've complained to the principal (the school has a policy
of no cell phones) but to no avail.

~~~
downandout
Assuming you can afford at least some kind of inexpensive phone for your
kid(s), this is kind of a messed up position to take. Your children are
failing classes because you want to make them purchase their own phones and
plans, which of course is not realistic. So they failed because of something
completely beyond their control and entirely within yours. As a parent, I’d be
ashamed of myself if I had allowed that to happen. Even worse, you seem to be
bragging that you deprived your children of this necessary tool.

In modern society, a smartphone and plan is as essential for school age
children as the clothing you presumably did not make them engage in child
labor to buy.

~~~
wincy
It's not his fault that the school makes assumptions about the lifestyle that
he has chosen for his children. I don't plan on giving my children cell
phones, either, and would home school sooner than I would be strong armed by
the state into buying a device with limitless potential for evil. I don't
think children are prepared to own them, even with internet blocks children
end up being constantly bombarded (or seeking out) pornography on school
issued laptops, smartphones, or any other internet enabled device. I practice
what I preach, and have a phone that is only capable of making phone calls
because I believe that constant internet access is a detriment to my
concentration and my well being. I am proud of being the bulwark my children
need to grow up to be well adjusted adults, and I'm not going to let some
administrators think they're the bosses because they were appointed by some
bureaucracy that I had no say in whatsoever, or be "ashamed" because some
stranger on the Internet says I should be.

~~~
criddell
> It's not his fault that the school makes assumptions about the lifestyle
> that he has chosen for his children.

I'm not sure they see it as a lifestyle choice. It's just another thing that
they expect kids to have. It's been added to the list of binder, paper, pens,
laptop, and gym clothes.

------
110011
The way mobile phones are being used in the present day, by both children and
adults alike, is unhealthy and at the very least it can be said that the
potential ill effects are not very well understood. Much like how research
into the ill effects of smoking were not properly understood during its
heydays in the early 20th century when it was a sign of social sophistication
and took many decades before a conclusive link (to lung cancer) was
established.

One of the major changes it has caused in our societies is the splintering of
attention and erosion of the ability to confront boredom (let alone the skill
to turn it into something useful).

For example, if you reach for your mobile phone when your friend with whom
you're having dinner excuses himself to go to the restroom, then that is a
symptom. By itself, browsing some news websites or checking your social media
feed is probably harmless in this context, but there is a huge opportunity
cost in those missed moments where you could've profitably exploited that
break to think about things that are important to you and to him.

Perhaps the ensuing conversation could've been steered in a deeper direction
had you paused to think in those moments.

~~~
mgraczyk
Just because something annoys you or you find it conflicts with your values
does not make it unhealthy.

I remember life before smartphones. I remember boredom. It sucked. I would
never go back to the agonizing pain of sitting in the DMV for three ours or
standing in line at a grocery store just for some "missed moment" where I
study the shitty tabloids in line or DoT pamphlets.

Romanticising the past is not new. Whether it's television, hot showers, or
smartphones, there will always be cynics who wish a simpler life on the rest
of us.

~~~
welly
With all due respect, I think this says a lot about you if you honestly equate
boredom as pre-smartphones. Millions upon millions of us led a boredom-free
life prior to the smart and/or cellular/mobile phone. And there's far more to
do these days.

~~~
slededit
Please tell how you passed the 3 hours at the DMV without boredom pre-smart
phone?

~~~
bergjs
It was called a "book"

~~~
Whitestrake
It's still called that.

I access them on my phone now.

------
eigenschwarz
The scary thing about smartphones is how they might be permanently changing
adolescent and teenage brains, and not in a good way.

Checking texts and emails, surfing the internet for information, and yes -
even sites like HN and reddit - cause a dopamine surge in the brain that can
lead to so-called 'dopamine loops' [1]. In such a crucial part of brain
development, my fear is we are turning kids into the equivalent of 'lever-
pushing monkeys' [2]. Certainly there is already evidence that smartphones
might be contributing to negative development [3].

[1] [https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-
wise/201209/why-w...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-
wise/201209/why-were-all-addicted-texts-twitter-and-google)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axrywDP9Ii0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axrywDP9Ii0)

[3] [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/11/magazine/why-are-more-
ame...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/11/magazine/why-are-more-american-
teenagers-than-ever-suffering-from-severe-anxiety.html)

~~~
sridca
The same can be said for video games.

[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170622103824.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170622103824.htm)

~~~
craftyguy
I believe my parents said their parents told them same thing about TVs, and
their parents parents told them radios, and so on.

~~~
eigenschwarz
Again, same as above: do you watch TV or listen to radio in school unless the
teacher introduces it as part of the learning process? It's not that
everything about a smartphone is bad - just like not everything about TV is
bad - it's the unfettered and ubiquitous distractions inherent in smartphones
being used during school hours for uses aside from learning.

~~~
hrktb
> listen to radio in school

Yes, and it’s fairly easy to hide an earplug by adopting a leaning posture.

Also we read comics and books, and played games on our calculators, exchanged
paper messages etc., though you would classify that as active distractions I
guess.

It’s true that smartphones are a different kind of devices, but I’m not sure
it’s such a big deal if we account for the number of hours everyday they will
be spending using them formthe rest of their life. Might as well have them
part of the equation from the start.

------
davidgh
As a parent of three adolescents I enjoy the fact that I can reach my kids
whenever and Find My Friends allows me to confirm that they made it to school
safely on a snowy day, for example.

However.

I did some volunteer teaching for a couple of years at my son’s school.
Interestingly, I didn’t seem to observe students reaching in and initiating
engagement with their phone very often. It was almost always in response to
the “buzz”. It was so clear. They are there taking notes, looking at you, or
even just staring at the floor. And I would see the small “snap” bodily
response that happens when the phone buzzes with whatever. And mentally they
might as well have jumped up and walked straight out of class. They were gone.
Not “half paying attention while looking at this thing” but completely
transported to a different sphere.

Having every student disable all push notifications during class time would
have solved nearly all the problems I witnessed. They developed “driving
mode”, would sure be nice if they did an easy-to-access “class mode” where
every notification of any type except a text or call from mom or dad was
suppressed. Sure, some would refuse to enable class mode but with the students
I taught, if I reminded at the beginning of class to turn it on, I suspect a
fair amount of my students would have done it voluntarily.

~~~
StudentStuff
You might enjoy an Orwellian access to your child's location, but as they grow
it tends to suffocate the child's development. Many friends of mine who had
been chained like this during middle school and high school proceeded to go to
college and fall flat on their face in various ways (as their parents weren't
there to strictly mind over them).

Kids can walk home on their own just fine. I used to walk a mile to school in
Portland, OR and I was far from being in a safe neighborhood like I'm in here
in Seattle. But, despite that I never had an issue during those years.

Instant reachability and the expectations surrounding it can easily snuff out
personal development of children, at least one of my friends never left home,
dated, etc, mainly due to his mother's incessant calls (80+ times if he didn't
pick up, totally insane).

~~~
upvotinglurker
Checking on a kid's whereabouts during an unusual event (snowy day) is hardly
tantamount to "chaining" them or calling them 80 times a day.

------
avip
Sounds like pure common sense to me. Schools are implicitly responsible for
the overall well-being of kids. Many schools ban smoking, sugary
snacks/drinks, some dressing style (or non-dressing), makeup. Many parents
would love to send their kids to schools without a phone, this will empower
and support them.

~~~
JeanMarcS
Why did I had to scroll that far to finally find someone talking about the
parents ! (or maybe I missed it)

For me I find it astonishing that state have to make laws for common sense.
When did it made sense to parents to let their kids go to school with a tool
known for its distraction impact ?

Some years ago, would you have send your kids to school with a portable tv ?

The lack of parent education and common sense is the real problem for me here.

For the record, I’m french and speaking from a french point of view, but I
guess it’s the same in most countries.

~~~
bluGill
Phones do have useful purposes for children. When school is in session that
purposes is limited to calling 911 (the emergency number in the US). However
once school is over it lets the student tell their ride (maybe their parent,
maybe someone else already arranged) exactly when soccer practice is over and
arrange a meeting place.

Note very carefully that the useful uses of a phone are a small percentage of
all the functions a phone offers. I've considered buying my kids a phone watch
with 3 buttons: call mom, call dad, call [someone else but I can't figure out
who]. Of course phone watches have been in the news for serious privacy
concerns, but that is unrelated to the need.

~~~
JeanMarcS
I understand your point of view but parents managed to do without cell phones
for decades and it was not a problem. Apart from the 911 example, it seems to
me that parents are buying them a convenience (not sure of this word) in not
having to wait 5mn more if the practice is not over when they show up.

In fact, it’s like letting the tv rise your kids because it’s easier and give
you time back.

On a last point, I agree with your last statement, and I think a téléphone
with 3 buttons will be the best of both worlds :)

~~~
bluGill
You are correct. Convenience is the reason. So is most everything else -
unless you sleep in a cave and cook over and open fire...

------
jondwillis
Cell phones were banned during my years in high school, and smartphones didn’t
even exist until halfway through my final year.

In hindsight, I am thankful for the enforcement as it made for fewer addictive
interruptions in attention that I currently deal with in my professional
career and personal life at large. Texting under a desk or playing a 2d game
on a flip phone was about all you could get away with.

I doubt that my sentiment is very unique here.

~~~
on_and_off
Not at all, I share the same view.

Electronic devices can be quite addictive. I don't have kids yet but when I do
I don't see myself letting them have unlimited access to them.

So no problem with that rule for me, on the contrary.

(Anecdotally, I am French)

------
yoz-y
The important thing in the article is that this ban concerns phone usage
during breaks and lunch. Phones in classes were already forbidden long time
ago.

~~~
noobermin
I think that is a step too far. Imagine they banned books during breaks.
That's how far this is.

I get you want to not have them use them during class but that is the general
policing class behavior that teachers are supposed to do. Why ban them during
breaks when it doesn't hurt their studies?

~~~
cspags
It may not hurt their studies, but perhaps their social skills. I recently
stayed at a hostel, and when I first walked in I noticed how in the common
area almost every single person was alone on their phone. It made me long for
the pre-smartphone days in which I imagine travelers were forced to socialize
with each other.

While school lunch is a slightly different situation, I think it still applies
that without phones kids will be forced to communicate more directly with each
other.

~~~
AndrewDucker
"It made me long for the pre-smartphone days in which I imagine travelers were
forced to socialize with each other."

Having lived through the horrors of the pre-smartphone days, I can tell you
that this wasn't the case. See, for instance:
[https://i.pinimg.com/474x/1a/a1/7b/1aa17b28aad6df78a2e1d2016...](https://i.pinimg.com/474x/1a/a1/7b/1aa17b28aad6df78a2e1d2016205376a
--newspaper-smartphone.jpg) or [https://cdn-
images-1.medium.com/max/540/1*U36hBj8i-C7JJJxS4M...](https://cdn-
images-1.medium.com/max/540/1*U36hBj8i-C7JJJxS4MP2HQ.jpeg)

~~~
jasonkester
No, he's right. Until about 10 years ago, meeting people was an integral part
of travel.

You'd be essentially cut off from your friends back home (apart from maybe a
daily email session), so you made new friends wherever you went. You'd go down
to the common area of the hostel (or the beach bar near your bungalow in SE
Asia), and strike up a conversation with pretty much anybody, since everybody
there was traveling as well.

Now I can, sadly, verify that backpackers spend their common-area time on
their phones, going about their usual business with their normal "friends".
With the only difference being that they're now trying to upload photos that
will make those friends jealous enough to leave a like.

I think I liked it better before.

~~~
zimpenfish
> You'd go down to the common area of the hostel [] and strike up a
> conversation with pretty much anybody

Don't conflate what you would do with the general case - I, for one, -might-
venture to a common area but it's extremely unlikely I'd ever consider trying
to strike up a conversation.

~~~
jasonkester
Apologies if I was not clear. That was what I observed _other people_ doing.
Lots of talking, lots of "new best friends", nobody sitting alone pretty much
anywhere.

Worldwide, as observed during 15 years of ~6months/year traveling. Most
travelers during that period were, in fact, open to speaking to one another.

And again, in the last 5 years of doing trips on several continents, people
you see at "the bar down at the beach" are usually looking at their phone,
even when seated at the same table as other travelers.

That never used to happen. And I bet if we crossed paths back then and I asked
you where you were from, you would have replied. And we may have even had a
conversation.

~~~
zimpenfish
> That was what I observed other people doing. Lots of talking, lots of "new
> best friends", nobody sitting alone pretty much anywhere.

But isn't this subject to mild confirmation bias? Because you won't have seen
the people who aren't in the common room.

------
zelos
Can we limit them for use by parents as well? Playgrounds seem to be the place
parents go to look at Facebook while their kids yell "look at me mummy"
forlornly.

~~~
abootstrapper
Cut parents some slack and give children some credit. Everyone is going to be
just fine (possibly better) if dad gets a tiny break and junior gets a small
taste of independence.

~~~
aluhut
This has nothing to do with independence. Kids need the attention of their
parent. We are social beings. Those zombie parents kids develop into something
the parents will later want to medicate shifting the blame on the kid.

In no way will there be something BETTER.

~~~
greglindahl
When I grew up, I had long periods of time during which my parents weren't
around. I socialized with other children. Imagine that!

~~~
aluhut
You are aware that there are playgrounds and ages where parents have to be
around their kids are you?

~~~
greglindahl
I am aware that the rules for that are very different from when I was a child
and now.

~~~
aluhut
It's got nothing to do with rules. It used to be common sense when I grew up.
Also, there are bonding mechanisms in all kids that require feedback from a
parent in their early years. This is where your parents attention is
necessary. This is also where a kid can develop certain problems if they don't
get this attention. My SO sees those failures of zombie parents every day at
work. The only thing worse is the parents ignorance.

Same goes for playgrounds that are in difficult areas or conditions of course.

~~~
greglindahl
Huh. I spent plenty of time with my parents, and plenty of time without. Yet
today's "common sense" says that almost everyone in my generation was raised
by wolves.

~~~
aluhut
It's common sense that exaggerations and selective ignorance kills
discussions.

------
latch
Shouldn't this be a matter for individual schools or school boards (the
article says some already have this in place)?

I like the policy, but as I get older, I wonder why we have so many laws that
control so much of what we can and can't do. I agree this one's pretty benign,
but it still seems like an excess of authority.

When I was in school, if I distracted another student or played on my
calculator, I'd get in trouble. Despite the lack of law banning talking, the
school wasn't impotent to enforce discipline.

~~~
seszett
> _Shouldn 't this be a matter for individual schools or school boards (the
> article says some already have this in place)?_

The policy for National Education in France is to have as little difference as
possible between schools. Parents cannot readily choose the school their
children go to, as well (unless they switch to a private school, but this is
marginal, and it costs money) so it makes sense to have them all have the same
rules.

I see no reason for a school in one city to allow cell phones, while one in
another city bans them. Children are the same humans with the same broad needs
and behaviours in the whole country.

~~~
latch
I see what you mean. I'm still curious why this has to be a _law_ though?
Aren't there a bunch of policies in schools that are enforced without the need
for law?

I didn't put this in my original comment, but I think what really got under my
skin from the article was:

"The minister said the ban was also a “public health message to families”,
adding: “It’s good that children are not too often, or even at all, in front
of a screen before the age of seven."

Which takes it from "as little difference as possible between schools" to "we
have an opinion about how you should raise your kids and we'll use laws to
send that 'message'". Yes, there are already plenty of reasonable and good
laws place limits and requirements on parents. This just seems way over the
line.

~~~
opportune
Sure, there a few reasons to do it like this.

First, my impression is that you still have the right to send your children to
a private school where this won't be enforced. So it's not a law, it's a
policy passed at the national level for the public schools, which are
organized from the national level.

Secondly, passing the law at the national level deals with the situation where
a school gets "bullied" into not passing the policy to begin with. For
example, parents might prioritize being able to coordinate pickups in real-
time over their children's education (I'm not implying bad intent: they just
might not recognize the negative impact of their children's mobile use during
class time) and thus pressure a school to not ban mobile use during class
time.

Personally I think your own definitions of what are reasonable and what are
not are skewed. You think it's over the line to claim that "children are not
too often, or even at all, in front of a screen before the age of seven"???
What could a five or six year old possibly be doing on a smart phone aside
from watching videos and playing games? Why do middle schoolers need access to
their phones during lunch - what do they gain from it?

I'm not French though, so someone will have to double check me on the claim
that this is actually a national policy for public schools rather than an
actual law.

~~~
seszett
> _First, my impression is that you still have the right to send your children
> to a private school where this won 't be enforced. So it's not a law, it's a
> policy passed at the national level for the public schools, which are
> organized from the national level._

> _I 'm not French though, so someone will have to double check me on the
> claim that this is actually a national policy for public schools rather than
> an actual law._

As far as I understand it, they have not yet decided which legal way they will
use to enforce that but it will most probably be in the "Code de l'éducation",
so applicable to private schools as well.

Private schools have different funding, some liberty in choosing what they
teach in addition to the nation-wide requirements, and more freedom in
choosing the pupils they accept, but most policies do apply to them. The basic
idea in France is that all children are supposed to get the same education, no
matter where they are and what their parents want (with some leeway regarding
regional culture and language). Children are future citizens rather than just
property of their parents.

It's very clear here that the ban is intended to be for all children, not just
public school children. Private schools are really anecdotal in France anyway,
outside of a few regions (like mine in the rural West where almost 50%
children used to go there, though it's been declining).

~~~
opportune
Thank you for that, didn't realize the Code de l'éducation applied to private
schools. Funnily enough, in some areas of the US, private schools are the only
places to get a real education (e.g. in states which don't teach evolution in
public schools), and I went to such a school, so I'm of the opinion that you
should have the option to give your child a different education so long as it
is not drastically different. I understand the argument for nationalizing this
policy across all schools public and private, but like the person I was
replying to originally, I'm not entirely sure I agree with that argument.

Then again, I think the difference really stems from a deep ideological
disagreement on the priority of freedom _from_ the government vs. freedom _of_
the government. So it's no surprise that this doesn't make sense to us
Americans

------
mFixman
Blanket bans of this kind rarely work, and policies like this are usually
caused by other factors.

My primary school had a concrete playground without any trees, and school
policy forbid us from running (so we wouldn't hurt ourselves), from playing
games like tag (so we wouldn't run) or clapping each other's hands (because we
could hurt ourselves). We also couldn't play card games to protect against
gambling, nor gather in a group of 5 or more people for some reason. I would
have loved a cellphone or anything not to be bored out of my mind during
break, but that wouldn't be necessary with a more reasonable school policy.

~~~
aluhut
> nor gather in a group of 5 or more people for some reason

Seriously...? There is like several worlds between this (even if it's true)
and the topic.

You should ask yourself why your parents didn't do anything against those
ridiculous rules and I assume you grew up in some normal western country and
not in NK or something where I would assume those rules to be normal.

~~~
StudentStuff
Objecting to school policy is extremely hard, I remember one time I got pulled
aside by a vice principal who was new to my grade, trying to nab me for a
minor code of conduct violation on a code I'd never agreed to. Told him to
pound sand unless he could produce a signed copy of the code of conduct
showing I'd agreed to it. Got my parents involved along with a few other
people from the PTA, but no luck.

He did make my life rather poor for a year or two, but I told him off a few
weeks before school was out when he tried to keep a group of students on
campus for an after-school event, claiming we couldn't leave. The darker side
of me is all too happy to see that he is among the lowest paid administrators
at Seattle Public Schools despite his long tenure. My former teachers make
more, which I'm glad for!

------
jpkeisala
This is great. Actually, school that my kids goes to forbid smartphones this
year. It's been all positive.

------
mortenjorck
Few things make me feel genuinely _old_ like reading about smartphones in K-12
schools.

When I was in high school, there was a part of the student handbook that
specifically forbade "wireless devices" used during school hours, and given
that only a few kids even had basic cellular phones at the time, enforcement
was not only easy, but barely necessary.

A modern classroom where kids are not only texting each other (something I
didn't encounter until college) but sending Snaps, posting on Instagram, and
playing Clash of Clans is so far outside anything I can imagine from my time
in public school as to be from a completely different culture. I thought being
a teacher must be hard based on my experiences then – I can hardly fathom what
it's like today.

------
rejschaap
My kids are still young, but I've been thinking about what is the right moment
to give them mobile phones. Ideally, I would wait like to wait until middle
school and then hope they will put them into their locker during class. I
think concentration is one of the important skills to cultivate, I'm probably
biased because it has been so important in my career. Phones are designed to
distract and break concentration, responsible phone usage seems important.
Also, I see kids cycling while using their phones all the time in Holland. If
I would ever catch my kids doing that they will have to hand in their phones
immediately.

~~~
motdiem
middle school was the right time for me, mostly because their social life
became so active that it was overtaking my own phone most weekends just to
coordinate their activities...

------
j9461701
>The minister said the ban was also a “public health message to families”,
adding: “It’s good that children are not too often, or even at all, in front
of a screen before the age of seven.”

I remember being a little kid and wanting to learn about space and submarines
and sharks, and not being able to. I'd read my local library's books on those
subjects, but I lived in a little town with a puny library so quickly
exhausted my supply of information. I'd have given my front teeth to have
access to a tablet with wikipedia access - even just one geocities article on
Great Hammerheads would've made me jump for joy.

Information diving on subjects you're interested in is one of the greatest
boons of the modern age, and I think it's a terrible thing to deny a curious
child. Yes a kid can spend all day every day on facebook or twitter or
watching youtube videos, but to say _all_ kids shouldn't have access because
_some_ might turn into little zombies is foolish. Assuming usage is properly
curated by parents or other authority figures, smart devices can be some of
the most powerful tools for educating children this side of a Greek tutor.

Also this is a hobby horse as old as time. "New Techology is evil, and it's
corrupting our youth like never before!" It wasn't true with TV, or radio, or
codexes, or writing itself, and I see no reason this time in particular should
be exceptional.

>“This new announcement from the [education] ministry leaves us dubious
because we’re having trouble understanding what is the real issue here. In
general, we’re used to them being logical and pragmatic about things, and
here, we can’t find the logic or the pragmatism in the announcements,” said
Philippe Vincent, the union’s deputy general secretary.

Ah. So it's a meaningless publicity stunt that will never go anywhere, and the
original promise was a cynical election ploy to win the votes of luddities.
Due credit to Macron’s administration though, at least they're making token
efforts to stick to their campaign promises.

>“In ministerial meetings, we leave our phones in lockers before going in. It
seems to me that this as doable for any human group, including a class,”
Blanquer said in September.

Do you seriously see no difference between between a handful of elderly
government officials leaving their phones in individual lockers guarded by
armed men while they discuss affairs of state for hours on end, and hundreds
of 8 year olds putting their iPhone 65s in unguarded communal bins while they
run around for 15 minutes and then have to retrieve them again?

~~~
icelancer
>The minister said the ban was also a “public health message to families”,
adding: “It’s good that children are not too often, or even at all, in front
of a screen before the age of seven.”

Citation-fucking-required for this one, with conclusive evidence proving that
it's true for all kids under seven. AKA he pulled it out of his ass.

~~~
hycaria
Why do you seem so angry about this ?

~~~
aluhut
There is a frightening amount of people having huge problems with the rule on
here. I'd guess they are quite young and grew up in this unregulated time, not
even knowing what they've missed.

------
fredley
The web, and social media in particular is as addictive, and perhaps even as
damaging as smoking ever was (is), albeit in less obviously perceptible ways.
This is a good move.

------
alexduros
I don't know if it's good or bad news. But what is very disappointing is that
when French government deal with digital natives issues, it's a question about
"should we fear about smartphones or not ?" As Laurent Alexandre explains it
perfectly
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJowm24piM4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJowm24piM4),
in french) in many talks he gives those times to the French government, we
should spend more thinking about how to educate our children to use and
understand those new technologies, instead of fearing it and applying the
"good old french precautionary principle" to keep our eduction system free of
smartphones, full of chalk and blackboard...

~~~
bambax
> _full of chalk and blackboard_

Thanks for the link to Mr. Alexandre's talk; very informative. He's a little
heavy on the hyperbole but many of his warnings ring true, esp. the fact that
Europe is squashed between the American GAFA and the Asian BATX, with no
response of her own.

That said, French schools are not esp. technology-adverse; most (all?)
classrooms are equipped with a "TNI" (tableau noir interactif) which is in
fact a great improvement versus traditional blackboard and chalk.

Banning smartphones in schools is a very good thing IMHO; teaching technology
is a distinct issue; kids don't use smartphones to learn technology but, most
of the time, to consume content or exchange messages.

Just because you have a car doesn't make you a mechanic, but it makes you walk
less.

~~~
jeromenerf
s/TNI/TBI/ : "tableau blanc interactif".

Having led some experiments with those, I am not sure they are a real
improvement over a chalkboard:

\- they cost much more and are pretty useless without computers / tablets for
the teacher and pupils \- they require skills from the teachers to operate
them \- the software ecosystem is poor \- slightly OT, wifi is not allowed in
schools

So, while the concept is attractive, the current implementations requires a
lot of efforts and little value, even in the corporate world.

I'd like to read some reviews about google's jamboard though.

~~~
bambax
I'm pretty sure the name is TNI although the board is indeed white.

I did discuss this with my children's teachers and challenge the whole
concept, since like you I thought there should be a lot of value to justify
replacing an ages-old technology that doesn't require power with a fragile one
that can break and needs to be plugged in.

I was surprised to see the teachers themselves were very enthusiastic about
it.

The one feature that really sold the technology to me was the fact that one
can switch from the problem to the correction and back, which is impossible to
do with chalk.

Also, teachers can prepare the lessons in advance. Basically, it helps
productivity, it saves time. Another detail, the teacher faces the class when
writing on the TNI, instead of turning her back to the pupils, which I
remember was a great opportunity for children to be unruly.

(And TNIs didn't remove blackboards, they're in addition to them; if the TNI
stops working or if the teacher prefers, blackboards are still there and still
available.)

------
ggregoire
I'm surprised they ban them only now, and only up to middle schools.
Smartphones are the easiest way in the all history to cheat on school tests.
Our parents and grandparents could write 1 or 2 math formulas or verb
translations on a small piece of paper; now kids can just have all the courses
of the entire year (+ Google and Wikipedia) on their iPhone, completely hidden
in their pencil case. When I was in college, everybody cheated that way.

~~~
GnarfGnarf
How do you feel about going under the knife of a surgeon who got through
college that way?

------
jageen
I think they must specify they banned smart mobile phones OR mobile phones

By reading all comments I think problem is in smart mobile phones. which have
extra features for user entertainment which also act as distraction (for
student during study)

Before coming to any decision we should not forgot that phone can also use as
medium of communication with our guardian in emergency and emergency is
something we could not predict.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Dumbphones had games and entertainment features since probably the first model
ever released. And let's not forget that any form of communication is _itself_
entertainment, especially in school context.

> _Before coming to any decision we should not forgot that phone can also use
> as medium of communication with our guardian in emergency and emergency is
> something we could not predict._

Technically they can, but schools usually place responsibility for handling
emergency contact on the school staff.

~~~
jacquesm
> Dumbphones had games and entertainment features since probably the first
> model ever released.

My first cell phone was a Motorola Microtac flip phone and it only did calls,
it did not even have an address book. But the first Nokia I had already had
'snake' on it (in monochrome, on a very low res screen).

------
peterburkimsher
I think this is a bad move.

When I was in school, I didn't want to carry heavy books all the time.

I downloaded Shakespeare and other eBooks, and wrote my own script to convert
the text into 1000-character iPod Notes.

When someone forgot their book to class, I could share mine with them.

Will other portable electronics be banned, or only communication devices? What
about the Ti-84 calculator, which is still required for exams?

~~~
Majestic121
Would you agree that using electronic devices to "download Shakespeare" is
highly unusual in primary school, and that most kids just use their phones to
play games/watch YouTube and other distractions?

~~~
TeMPOraL
The deeper question is - how do we make it not unusual, but a normal things
that kids just do?

~~~
peterburkimsher
There was a Mac Plus in the classroom at school. We were given some classes in
LogoWriter, and I excelled at it.

My dad found an abandoned Mac Plus next to the church one evening, but it was
broken. He gave it to me and told me that if I fix it, it's mine. Of course it
was much slower than the family computer, but I wanted my own! So I learned
how to replace the motherboard, and kept writing more programs on it for fun.

I then sort of stopped programming for a few years, until I wanted to download
eBooks and copy music, and I wrote an HTML parser and iTunes tagging script
using AppleScript. Since then I've been coding continuously.

There are many ridiculous rules that are applied to "children", because
they're "too young". I'm sure that Seymour Papert and the Raspberry Pi
Foundation would disagree. In fact, I'd like to ask some younger friends from
church if they could do a coding project with me and we can post it on HN and
see if they get the equal recognition they deserve.

There should be some balance between interrupting class work and giving people
the freedom to explore independently. But if the class is really that boring,
I can hardly blame the kids for playing games instead. Instead of punishing
people, why not make the class more interesting?

~~~
peterburkimsher
And if they're going to play games, is it more disruptive to throw virtual
fruit against virtual knives, or real paper balls at real classmates?

------
romatthe
When I was a kid in high school in Belgium, mobile phones were definitely
banned in every respectable high school without needing it to be enforced on a
national level. You were allowed to carry it with you of course, but if anyone
saw you using it, the teachers would take it away from you. That included
during recess. I don't recall ever seeing anyone using their phone in class,
except maybe some kid trying to be edgy once. It was a pretty okay system that
I don't recall anyone really complaining about. Parents were happy they could
contact their kids if they were worried, and it sure was nice I that I was
easily able to call for help when I broke my arm while riding my bike home
that one time.

Of course, this was before the rise of smartphones. Those only took off around
the time I got my first job, so I can't really comment on that. I definitely
do recall playing Tetris and Wolfenstein 3D on my Texas Instruments calculator
though.

------
juanmirocks
I fully understand the thoughts against the usage of mobiles for kids and
early teenagers. Notwithstanding, to me it feels awfully wrong that the state,
and not the parents, prohibit the usage of anything (that does not harm others
directly).

Same with Germany banning smartwatches for kids...
[https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/20/germany-bans-kids-
smartwat...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/20/germany-bans-kids-smartwatches-
that-can-be-used-for-eavesdropping/)

And then about enforcement. As technology progresses, I see little real room
for no displays / smart everything anywhere. I practically see it as a lost
battle.

Still, I don't have kids, so I do not fully comprehend the problems that
parents' may have with this issue.

~~~
killjoywashere
Children take cues from more sources of authority than just their parents.
Having the state send the signal that "these devices have great potential for
ruining your mind" is a strong and, as a parent, quite welcome signal.

------
hobarrera
Wow, this is amazing. I've seen kids being told off for NOT having a mobile
phone on them at school so they could reach their parents in case of urgency.

It's amazing how mindsets can be so different in different places (and I'm
saying all this with no tone of judgement).

------
GnarfGnarf
Fantastic! Very positive move.

We are poisoning our minds with mobile technology. Future generations will
view our use of cell phones like the radium watch factories
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls))
or adding heroin to babies' cough syrup ([http://www.businessinsider.com/yes-
bayer-promoted-heroin-for...](http://www.businessinsider.com/yes-bayer-
promoted-heroin-for-children-here-are-the-ads-that-prove-it-2011-11)).

------
pavelludiq
I had a flip phone with no internet in HS, I played minesweeper on it about
half a day everyday at school. It was the _only_ way I had of staying awake
during some of my classes. I literally fell asleep during class if I didn't
have _some_ stimulation. Not having that would've been a torture since falling
asleep is a good way to get in trouble.

Before I had my phone I drew. About 90% of my ink expenditure in school was
drawings.

I would've probably resented the hell out of a measure like this)

~~~
aluhut
Is this HN's version of r/iamverysmart?

~~~
ornitorrincos
I find an age divider here, when I was joung a cell phone was something my
parents had one, as such I took to class some magazines to read, no matter
what bored pupil will find something, regardless academics, no one is special
for being bored

------
djsumdog
There's a funny scene in the movie Paper Plans where an Aussie school teacher
makes all his students put their phones in a big hat before class starts.

------
phil248
I would have gotten in trouble for playing on a Gameboy in class when I was a
kid. This isn't much different.

Though the ban seems like an over-reach of authority. Kids should be able to
use their phones during breaks. And I'm sure many will.

------
PeterStuer
Parents keeping an electronic leash on their kids is also part of the problem.

------
pergadad
Thie is completely the wrong approach. Rather, schools should work to ensure
that all kids learn how to use digital devices (not just phones) for their own
benefit. If all they see at home is parents or siblings on Facebook, Skype and
mobile games, then that's what they'll do too. Schools have to teach for
reality, boy try to recreate some unrealistic and nostalgic "how it was in the
day". Look at Finland and Estonia, they use technology meaningfully in class
and get great results. It's not about using it all the time, but about using
it where it fits. Prohibiting phones will just lead to new ways of
circumventing the ban, new kinds of conflicts, punishments for kids for living
what is today a normal life.

If your only approach is to ban & punish, then those phones in kids' hands
will be only used for whatever is the easiest low-value engagement. Teach kids
that they can use Wikipedia, ebooks, educational videos, and creative tools to
satisfy their interests, look up things from class that they don't understand,
work together to make a presentation for class, programme Lego or other
robots, practice vocabulary and interact with students from abroad in their
second or third language, make little videos about the things they've learned,
etc and you'll get great results. Frontal lecture causes distractions because
it's fundamentally boring, unengaging and loses half the class. Tech can help
- if used right. To give just one reference, out of thousands, see eg the OECD
Report on this [1].

Tech can be really disruptive. And it can be a great facilitator for learning.
It's about how it's used and whether students learnb to use it creatively,
critically and constructively. You won't learn which mushrooms are edible by
being kept out of the forest, and neither by being thrown into a forest and
told to do whatever. You learn to understand what is edible, harmful, useful,
... if an experienced person that knows how to do so accompanies you in the
forest once in a while and shows it, explains it and watches as you try to do
it yourself in a real forest that you might encounter. Keeping kids away from
phones, or allowing them to do whatever will have the same results - they'll
play, eat the harmful mushrooms and fail to see the fantastic opportunities.
Accompany them in using their own devices. That's the task of an educator
today - teach kids how to live in today's world. Not smartphones every minute
of the day, but also not forbidden. Use them were it fits. Show them what role
they can play.

Principally, this requires teacher training, adapting curricula and testing,
and efforts in particular to make sure no kid is left out. Those from good
families with educated parents will mostly learn this through parents or
after-school activities, but especially poor/migrant/otherwise low performing
students will suffer if you don't make sure education teaches them for the
world of today.

Really, really sad. This is a purely ideological move, catering to an older,
reluctantly digital voter population. But it is also a betrayal of the very
kids it claims to help.

[1] [http://www.oecd.org/publications/students-computers-and-
lear...](http://www.oecd.org/publications/students-computers-and-
learning-9789264239555-en.htm)

~~~
megaman22
The example of small, almost completely homogenous Baltic countries is more
hurtful than helpful when applied elsewhere.

------
vectorEQ
ban is good. cell phones in class / school is not needed and just unneccesary
distraction. seeing as how addictive the devices can become, it's imo a good
thing to throttle the use of them for kids a bit. They should obviously learn
about the technology to be able to cope with a highly technology oriented
society, but it's not helpful to have all kids with cell phones in schools. it
will benefit their school work, and also social interaction with other kids.

good ban. go france!

------
HaoZeke
It's surprising that this isn't more prevalent actually.. Here in India being
caught with one just means giving up your cell for the rest of the year.

------
MarcScott
When I taught, I found that student's having mobile phones was pretty useful.

They had to be kept in their bags and on silent during my lessons, unless I
gave permission for them to be out.

They would use them to add reminders for homework, have a second screen for
internet access, take photos of the board, connect to my Apple TV and then
point their cameras at their work to display it to the rest of the class.

I rarely had issues, and when I did I would just confiscate the phone and then
make the parents come in to school to collect it. That soon tempers a child's
desire to get their phone out in class.

------
wafflesraccoon
I wonder how well this will be enforced, I have to assume that some percentage
of students will still bring their phones into school.

------
snvzz
Good riddance.

------
rootsudo
It's good. Sounds bad, but it is good.

------
ausjke
totally second this,hope we can do the same here,especially those smartphones
are too addictive to young brains.

------
threatofrain
A lot of these problems would go away with sophisticated technological
control, such as software which restricts phone use except after school ends.

------
artur_makly
BRAVO!!!!

------
alacombe
Meanwhile, my high school was authorizing students to smoke during recess _in_
the school...

~~~
makapuf
Would it be better if they go out of the school in the streets to smoke ?
Better have them smoke in a given space outside (not _too_ nice, and placated
with anti-smoke prevention posters ofc.) (Provided they’re old enough to come
and go freely, of course, meaning high school / college)

------
gaius
There is literally no reason for an under-18 to have a mobile phone _at all_.

~~~
sliverstorm
I'd hardly go that far, calling my parents as a teen on phone booths never
worked well, and phone booths are all but gone today.

(Smartphones are a different discussion)

------
Vosporos
They were already banned 7 years ago, this policy is a scam.

------
yummy
I had such rules in school and no one actually was capable of explaining why
exactly it was good for me. It was a long time ago and I still don't
understand

------
vuyani
Everybody seems to agree on this. But when we continue to ban drugs. Do the
same people scream "prohibition does not work!"?

------
hux_
Good move. Should be extended to colleges and workspaces too where any sort of
concentrated work/discipline is required. Nobody will die.

~~~
noobermin
Consider this is a ban set by the government.

------
motdiem
I think it's mostly posturing. Mobile phones were already banned in class, and
this was well enforced. But many kids, especially in cities, take public
transportation to get to middle school. My experience with middle school in
Paris is that it's also very unreliable schedule-wise. When school suddenly
finishes 2 hours early, I appreciate getting a text message from my kid
telling me what they're up to. It looks to me that it'll be hard to enforce
reliably - are they going to search backpacks, and keep phones in lockers
during the times kids are in school ?

~~~
Symbiote
The second sentence of the article starts:

"Children will be allowed to bring their phones to school"

~~~
motdiem
I think you underestimate the practicality of it - it’s a big topic of
conversation at our middle school currently. I think it’s going to cause more
issues than solve problems to be honest

------
mschuster91
Jeez. I had not thought the Macron government to be so backwards. IMHO there
are two issues at place:

1\. teachers not adapting to new times. In ye olde days, teachers had the
attention of the students basically guaranteed (as the only thing students
could do instead of paying attention to the teacher was drawing messages on
papers and passing them around). That frontal instruction is bullshit and
should be a thing of the past could be ignored. Now, however, teachers have to
compete with the Internet for the attention of the students - but instead of
embracing the change and throw some rotten traditions over board, they ban
phones. LOL.

2\. Mobbing/cyberbullying. I can understand that schools want to tackle this
problem, but banning smartphones is a _symbolic_ measure. The students will
still use closed Whatsapp/FB/whatever groups after school, without the school
being able to interfere in any way. Proper prevention measures, like teaching
the students what the effects of social media can be, provide counseling,
social workers, etc. - all that costs money, a lot of it. And so politicians
rather ban smartphones so that the (rightfully) concerned parents shut up
without having to spend huge sums of money.

~~~
gruez
> Now, however, teachers have to compete with the Internet for the attention
> of the students - but instead of embracing the change and throw some rotten
> traditions over board, they ban phones. LOL.

how can the average teacher compete with social networking sites that have
been engineered specifically to maximize engagement?

------
mankash666
I'd like to be able to call my kid in the event of an emergency. I understand
banning general cell phone use during class hours, but it's infringing on
civil liberties to force an unrestricted ban

~~~
praneshp
Eh, call the school instead of disturbing all other kids for your self-
proclaimed emergency.

