

Why I think you should try dvorak - mtoledo
http://marcostoledo.com/why-i-think-you-should-try-dvorak/

======
tome
I had a painful (in two senses) transition to Dvorak about eight years ago.

The first pain was RSI that I got through typing a lot. I decided to try
Dvorak to see if it helped.

The second pain was touch typing incredibly slowly for a few weeks whilst I
learned the layout. It was a great experience, typing is a lot more
comfortable, and I've never looked back.

Regarding the negatives:

 _You need to switch back when using other peoples’ computers_

Kind of. If you type on their computer for 5 minutes, just hunt-and-peck. If
you type on their computer for an hour, go to the control panel and switch
their layout into Dvorak!

 _Nearly no availability of keyboards with dvorak layout_

It doesn't matter at all. If you're using Dvorak for a sensible reason then
you're touch-typing. If you're touch-typing you're not looking at the keys.

 _Having to relearn all your hotkeys_

I can understand why Vim's hjkl would cause an annoying transition, but
location independent hotkeys will cause you no problem.

~~~
ecyrb
I learned vi after switching to Dvorak - so I don't have any vi-Qwerty muscle
memory. That makes for a painful 5 minutes at someone else's desk, but they
pick up vim commands better if I tell them what to do.

I echo the RSI sentiments though. Dvorak is more comfortable for myself. I'm
somewhat tempted to try Programmer's Dvorak for the brackets/braces/parens at
some point, but I do like having my (Dvorak) TypeMatrix 2030 keyboard reflect
my actual keymap.

~~~
mtoledo
I tried the programmer dvorak and, though it has some more accessible keys,
the number keys as 753190246 and the fact you needed to type it holding shift
(or pressing caps) eventually seemed worse than normal way, point being I type
a lot more numbers in a row than symbols in a row, so holding shift or
pressing caps for numbers got very frequent

------
ljlolel
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Colemak. The Colemak keyboard layout is easier
to learn and potentially faster than Dvorak (<http://colemak.com/>).

It is easier to learn because it changes many fewer keys, especially the less
frequent ones which are harder to learn because you rarely use them. I found I
could never remember where z and v were on Dvorak. Also, many hotkeys stay in
place (ctrl+c, ctrl+v, etc).

I learned Colemak (from 0 to 70wpm, now like 90) in 10 days (I had learned and
switched back from Dvorak before, though, so I was used to learning new
keyboards).

It is potentially faster since it was designed after modern computers were
invented and depends more on "finger rolls" to type common substrings quickly.
With Dvorak, I often used the same finger to type adjacent letters. I also
used my pinky _a lot_. That was painful. Finally, Colemak keeps punctuation in
the same sane place, so it's better for programmers.

Colemak is the 3rd most popular layout. I use it and find it available or
trivial to install on all modern OSs. I can easily use other people's
computers by either switching the keyboard layout, or just by glancing down
which causes my mind to switch to qwerty mode.

~~~
mtoledo
Vote up for people trying Colemak. I'm all for people exploring with their
typing layouts and seeing what works better, even if I haven't tried it
myself.

------
ComputerGuru
I use Dvorak just because with it I don't suffer from typing-related wrist and
arm pain.

The (IMHO) improved typing speed is just a secondary effect.

------
gnosis
Here's some research in to alternative keyboard layouts which are (arguably)
even more efficient than Dvorak and Colemak. [Also included is an application
for optimizing your own keyboard layout based on criteria that are important
to you (such as minimizing the use of the little fingers, weighting one hand
more than another, etc..)]:

<http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx>

The most efficient keyboard layouts are described here:

<http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization>

------
Ixiaus
After resigning from my job at an IP firm, I decided to undertake the learning
and use of Dvorak over QWERTY. I got rather proficient at it and like it a
lot.

Programmer’s Dvorak is particularly awesome – my most often used keys were
readily available and my typing speeds were much higher.

Something suffered though. My emacs environment used a Dvorak command
remapping mode that played nice with some of my other major modes but broke
the majority of my most often used commands in some very important modes. I
chose to forgo Dvorak and switch back to QWERTY because I didn’t want to
maintain multiple different remapping packages for my Emacs environment, BIG
pain in the ass.

I did, however, become a much better QWERTY typer because of it and greatly
wish to become ambi. Maybe my next go will be a project in itself to better
support Dvorak with my Emacs environment!

------
Loic
I was skeptical about Dvorak, I read a lot about it, here and in other places,
then in a day of "madness" I went ahead and bought a Typematrix 2030 USB with
Dvorak layout.

It took me 2 months to go back to speed and I was not that good at typing,
looking regularly at the keyboard with my Qwerty.

But now, I don't know if this comes more from the Typematrix or Dvorak, but
anyway, the combination is so great, it is the first time in my entire life
that I am fully touch typing, with the feeling that all the keys are naturally
falling below my fingers. I will never go back.

Note, I am a solo entrepreneur working from my home office, so I do not have
the problem with the switch between home and work keyboard. I started in March
last year if not wrong, so my experience is a bit more than "just a test".

~~~
ecyrb
I switched to Dvorak with a regular keyboard and noticed a reduction in wrist
/ forearm pain. It was only years later that I picked up a couple of
TypeMatrix keyboards as a luxury.

------
Xichekolas
Why is dvorak really better than qwerty?

It's more fun.

Everyone tries to justify it as more comfortable or faster, but really it
boils down to it being fun. (I use dvorak.) Sure, you spend more time on the
home row, and certain key chords are much more natural, but everything has its
drawbacks. One thing no one tells you is that dvorak is brutal on your right
pinky... especially if you use *nix and type things like 'ls' a lot. After a
while your pinky gets stronger and you no longer notice, but everything has
its advantages and drawbacks.

So really, lots stop spending all this effort justifying and evangelizing our
keyboard layouts. If you enjoy a non-qwerty layout, then by all means share it
with the world, but stop making it something bigger than it is.

~~~
mtoledo
I'm sorry if I'm making it bigger than it is. I really just mean to make it as
big as I think it is.

The more comfortable claims seem to be echoed by a lot of other dvorak typers
here as well.

Also, the pinky strain is echoed a lot, even if I haven't really suffered that
(perhaps for playing the piano and guitar??), so I think that's something to
watch for too.

------
JeremyChase
I used Dvorak for a couple months and loved it. However, at the time, I was
using other people's computers so frequently that I couldn't make the switch
at that time. Lately that isn't the case so maybe I should try it again...

------
aubergene
What about Colemak, see this letter frequency diagram

<http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?pid=596#p596>

------
jlouis
I used Dvorak for about 7 years but I am now back to QWERTY. I learned to type
with 10 fingers back in 1994 or so when in school. The reason I am back to
Qwerty are:

Many programs choose their shortcuts based on QWERTY. Espcially editors like
vim or emacs.

I don't type particularly faster on Dvorak.

I can't really feel a difference between the two schemes which makes one a
killer over the other. In other words: Both schemes are about equally decent.

~~~
loup-vaillant
Then change the short-cuts of your editor. Especially one like vim or emacs.

<http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_emacs_keybinding.html>

~~~
mtoledo
That's a pretty nice link!

I use my emacs with most default key bindings in dvorak and haven't noticed it
any better/worse than qwerty. Like I said on the article, ymmv

------
briancooley
Does anyone have suggestions for good online training for Dvorak? One of the
big hindrances to learning Dvorak seems to be the lack of available learning
tools.

~~~
tome
I learned by printing out the keyboard layout, sticking it about my keyboard
and just typing stuff that I'd have to type anyway. (Granted this is a slow
method of learning so may not work for those who are pressed for time).

------
wglb
So we see the typing speed before, but we are left to wonder what the post-
switch typing speed is.

~~~
mtoledo
Yea good point. I tried going to typeracer and got some ~80wpm scores, but
that's fairly anedoctal since I don't have any proper history of my typing
speed.

------
briansmith2010
You probably shouldn't, really.

~~~
tome
Care to justify that statement? It's not a very Hackernewsish comment as it
stands.

~~~
rewind
Off topic, but sometimes when you see a really moronic comment like that,
check the user's profile. You can see he/she created the account just to post
a dumb comment. Just downvote and ignore.

~~~
tome
Normally I do do that, but the comment was already at +3 when I downmodded it,
so that threw me a bit.

