
Licenses of 21,000 Turkish teachers have been revoked - janantala
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-teachers-idUSKCN0ZZ22F?il=0
======
jayess
The whole thing seemed fishy that night. I was watching Erdogan's plane circle
southwest of Istanbul for an hour or so on FlightRadar24. Then suddenly it
lands where just a couple of hours earlier coup-controlled tanks were
patrolling the runways. Huh? The "coup" had control of fighter jets that were
buzzing Istanbul and Ankara (live on TV), yet they let his plane circle, for
all to see, just minutes away?

~~~
neurotech1
It appears that there were multiple F-16 sorties flown.

Apparently, Early on, a "coup" F-16 dropped bombs near the presidential
palace.

The Blackhawk (possibly with door gunners) and Cobra attack helicopters were
"coup" controlled. One Blackhawk was shot down by a "loyalist" F-16. The sonic
booms heard later in the morning were likely loyalist F-16s. An F-16 can't
stay in afterburner, or fly supersonic at low altitude for very long even with
external tanks. The loyalist F-16s were refueled in the air from a Turkish AF
tanker.

If there were coup controlled F-16s anywhere near Erdogan's aircraft, it would
be stupid to fly in circles. The F-16s could shoot it down from over 20 miles
away. It was more likely they were waiting for ground forces to secure the
runways before landing.

Note: This is based on my opinions, and available public news sources.

~~~
tim333
The timing of events at Erdogan's hotel in Marmaris seem very odd too. I'm
having a job getting accurate info from the press but it seems roughly:

21:15 - Statement read on state-owned TRT says military has "completely taken
over the administration of the country to reinstate constitutional order". -
That's when I started following it on CNN and similar

2126 - President Erdogan facetimes people to take to the streets to protest.
Speaking to a CNN Turk reporter via a cellphone video link he says it will
meet a "necessary response". He says he is returning to the capital Ankara.
[http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/turkey-timeline-
coup-a...](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/turkey-timeline-coup-attempt-
unfolded-160716004455515.html)

Erdogan is spoken to by various media and photographed at his hotel
[http://qz.com/733810/after-the-military-seized-state-
media-t...](http://qz.com/733810/after-the-military-seized-state-media-
turkeys-president-took-to-facetime-to-urge-citizens-to-resist/)

Some time later 3 helicopters turn up to get Erdogan at the same hotel he's
been photographed at and then left "after about 1.5 hours after Erdogan's
departure from the hotel is by the soldiers in the coup attempt was made
​​here attacks. " [http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yerel-haberler/mugla-
haberleri/er...](http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yerel-haberler/mugla-
haberleri/erdogan-marmaris-ten-ayrildi-kaldigi-otel-bomb_310005/)

You'd think the normal timing would be try to detain Erdogan, then announce
coup then press turn up, not announce coup, allow global live press coverage
for a couple of hours, then try to catch Erdogan. I realise there may have
been confusion but phones, the internet were working normally. They could have
whatsapped 'got him yet?' or phoned or whatever. Or turned on the TV and
watched CNN and seen his flight on flight24 before going to his hotel.

Odd.

Update - the daily mail says they went to the wrong hotel
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3695470/The-
luxury-s...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3695470/The-luxury-
seaside-villa-owned-wealthy-playboy-Turkey-tyrant-Recep-Erdogan-
escaped-30m-Gulfstream-jet-fifteen-minutes-three-Blackhawk-helicopters-
carrying-special-forces-landed-KILL-HIM.html)

But also the soldiers were looking for Erdogan at 3.30am, long after he'd
gone. And presumably after the photographers had packed up and gone home.
Maybe they don't bother checking the news or AlJazeera's twitter feed? Or just
coup theatre perhaps. Mail's account from some hotel guests:

>But they were woken at 3.30am by the popping of guns – which they thought at
first were fireworks – and his wife Theresa went to the door to see what was
going on.

>She was met by the sight of military rebels running around the hotel armed
with machine guns.

>'You want to see what is going on, but she found herself face to face with a
soldier with a machine gun in his hands,' continued Mr de Graaf.

>The soldiers were shouting in broken English: 'Where Erdogan stay? Erdogan
stay?'

------
lettergram
It seems more and more (to me at least) that the coup d'état attempt could
have been allowed, if not blatantly organized by the ruling elite of Turkey.

There's actually a great scene in the end of the _Anthony Bourdain Parts
Unknown_ Istanbul episode where someone close to the ruling class (a business
owner), makes the following comment[1]:

> "Fear works. Fear gets votes."

Beyond that, I can't find a clip, but it was the most real-life foreshadowing
I have ever seen in my life.

[1] [http://www.eater.com/2015/11/8/9684640/parts-unknown-
recap-i...](http://www.eater.com/2015/11/8/9684640/parts-unknown-recap-
istanbul-anthony-bourdain)

~~~
ianai
That show has been amazing for its relevancy.

~~~
lettergram
I'm not even super big on the show (my wife is), but twice now I've seen
things foreshadowed on it. It was so blatantly clear Turkey was devolving into
a pure dictatorship when the episode was filmed like two years ago.

We've seen stuff on Reddit, but the conversation they had at the end of the
episode with the business owner was just scary. He was basically just like,
"yeah, we're going to take power right from under everyone's noses, and it's
going to make me rich"

------
mcbits
It's starting to seem like they had these lists made up ahead of time and have
been waiting for the right time to start cleansing the ranks.

~~~
random28345
> It's starting to seem like they had these lists made up ahead of time and
> have been waiting for the right time to start cleansing the ranks.

Kind of how the 342-page US Patriot Act was introduced days after the
September 11th terrorist attacks?

~~~
ams6110
According to Wikipedia's entry on the Patriot Act, it was introduced on
October 23. Over a month to produce 342 pages of double-spaced federal
legalese? Probably not incredible. That said, I'm sure the TLA agencies took
advantage of the crisis to "suggest" a lot of things they'd been wanting.

------
dhruvrrp
21,000 teachers and 1.5k deans. This is the kind of thing that pushes the
education system and thus the country back a decade.

How are they gonna find replacements? How are the students gonna cope without
teachers? What is Erdogan trying to do..

~~~
wheaties
Educated people ask questions. He doesn't want an educated populace.

~~~
colejohnson66
While that is true, look at North Korea. Everyone is taught from birth that
their Gloious Leader is, in a sense, God. However, people who've escaped have
said that when they got old enough to actually think for themselves, they
figured out it was a lie but couldn't do anything.

[http://www.craveonline.com/design/869309-north-korean-
defect...](http://www.craveonline.com/design/869309-north-korean-defector-
living-usa-answered-internets-questions)

> Well, it's hard to say. Yes and no. Because if you're talking about nowadays
> North Koreans, it's a little bit hard for me to say that a majority of North
> Koreans believe propaganda. But I do think that older generations definitely
> believe government propaganda, because in the 1970's, economically the North
> Koreans were better off than South Korea, but after the 1990s famine, things
> have proven that it is not the best country in the world as the government
> or state claim, because how can you accept the propaganda when your best
> friend dies of starvation? So I think nowadays more and more people are
> critical of government propaganda, but I can't say what all North Koreans do
> now.

~~~
PopsiclePete
I grew up in Eastern Europe in the 80's. No internet, but it was still
impossible to stop the flow of information, even a little bit, that the West
wasn't this horrible, terrifying place. People are _not_ stupid, but they know
when to shut up.

------
mtgx
This after Erdogan has already purged 2,700 judges and 8,000 police officers:

[http://www.reuters.com/article/turkey-security-judges-
idINKC...](http://www.reuters.com/article/turkey-security-judges-
idINKCN0ZW0OZ?irpc=932)

[http://www.politico.eu/article/turkey-
dismisses-8000-police-...](http://www.politico.eu/article/turkey-
dismisses-8000-police-after-failed-coup-judges-military-personnel-recep-
tayyip-erdogan/)

This looks very much like a real-world version of Supreme Chancellor
Palpatine's "Execute order 66":

[http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Order_66](http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Order_66)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09n0qd_n4c0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09n0qd_n4c0)

------
trhway
Reichstag fire.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire)

------
jayess
How Turkey could possibly still be in accession talks to join the EU is
baffling and appalling to me.

~~~
imartin2k
Basically, Erdogan has given up on the EU, and to be fair, the EU has probably
missed out on an opportunity to draw Turkey into its sphere while the chance
existed, and while Erdogan was willing to compromise.

~~~
Bartweiss
I question whether Erdogan was ever seriously pursuing membership. He probably
would have _taken_ it, on good enough terms, but I don't think it was a goal.
Too poorly aligned with his religious, autocratic tendencies.

The narrative that makes more sense to me is that Erdogan used membership
talks to maintain a moderate reputation, creating a retort to both domestic
and international critics. It weakened the position of moderate Kemalists at
home, and effectively silenced EU criticism (what were they going to say,
"he's a dictator and we'd like him in our club?"). The EU was reluctant to
back off that course because it would have alienated an approximate ally well-
placed to deal with Iraq and the refugee crisis.

At this point the game is played out; Erdogan has his state control, EU
membership is less appealing, and the refugee crisis is, if not fixed, at
least no longer new. Everyone got their short-term gains, and the talks can go
nowhere just like they were before.

~~~
imartin2k
Your theory is shockingly convincing.

However, it would require Erdogan to be quite an intelligent, long-term
thinking person. Which, in my eyes, has to be questioned considering how he is
so emotional and short-tempered that he picks any tiny, meaningless war he can
get, even if it means suing teenagers who "offend" him.

That's what, based on my limited understanding, is what distinguishes him from
Putin. Putin is in many ways similar to Erdogan, but he actually knows that
many minor fights are not worth pursuing. Which is why we the Internet can
create cartoons and collages ridiculing Putin without being sued by him :)

Seeing Erdogan lacking essential personality traits of a good leader, I
somehow have a hard time seeing that he is capable of that type of long-term
planning. But who knows. He nevertheless managed to get quite far.

~~~
Bartweiss
That's a really good question.

Erdogan confuses me for the same reasons as Trump - he's a petty, immature
strongman who has no sense of proportion, but somehow he makes enough clever
moves to advance his position. I'm not sure if they're political savants,
depending on good advisers, or just lucky and grabbing hold of domestic anger.

Erdogan seems to be a joke of despot compared to the likes of Putin or even
Assad, and "he's not competent" is probably the best counterargument to any
claim of a big, long-term plan. I just wish I understood how he managed to get
this far without the abilities that dictatorship usually requires.

~~~
imartin2k
"joke of a despot" good one. Probably he'd be offended.

------
zymhan
Turkey's civil service is not going to be in good shape after this purge. It
seems hard to run a modern society in a very precarious neighborhood with
undermanned services and not risk your own citizens getting angry or outsiders
using the opportunity to strike.

~~~
frandroid
Also difficult to run a modern society when you purge people capable of
critical thought.

~~~
vkou
Seems to work just fine for most state operations. The people really capable
of critical thought will quickly learn to keep their mouths shut.

~~~
yardie
Or they will leave.

Cuba is in the shape it's in because the industrialist, knowledge workers,
business owners, all left. I honestly believe the revolution started with good
intentions, then began to turn more authoritarian. And finally, stacked the
ranks with incompetent loyalists.

------
Kenji
What a shame. Erdogan is cementing his position and thus totalitarianism and
islamofascism. Driving out the intellectuals and freethinkers is a significant
step. Every month he and people like him are in office will take Turkey years
to recover from. If this isn't stopped now, and it seems like it isn't, I
doubt I will see a free Turkey in my lifetime.

------
nurettin
I am mostly a-political, 3000 years later none of this will matter. A few
billion years later andromeda "collides" with milky way. So let people play.

That being said, how does a successful military coup increase a country's
democracy in any conceivable way? How is this a "last ditch effort for
democracy" as so many people here seem to be thinking? And why is the answer
always "oh it was a fake"? How does it work in the first place? Do you think
people will suddenly stop voting for their favorite party and ideology
(opposing the ruling secular elite) after 14 years?

~~~
tim333
>how does a successful military coup increase a country's democracy in any
conceivable way?

A conceivable way is they overthrow a dictator and hold elections.

In practice through research finds "though democracies are occasionally
established in the wake of coups, more often new authoritarian regimes emerge,
along with higher levels of state-sanctioned violence."
[http://rap.sagepub.com/content/3/1/2053168016630837](http://rap.sagepub.com/content/3/1/2053168016630837)

I don't think a coup would have been a good idea in this case - Erdogan was
elected and fairly popular so the argument for a coup would be weak. One
reason to think it may not have been a real coup attempt.

~~~
nurettin
As long as rich is getting richer and poor is getting better services, which
has been consistently the case for the past decade, majority doesn't care
about who rules what and what their agenda is. People just want the status
quo. People do think extraditions and finger pointings are increasing to
insane levels, but as long as status quo is kept and lost services are
replaced, they will keep on voting for their beloved somewhat-islamic
somewhat-secular government.

------
chinathrow
Reactions like these makes you wonder if the coup attempt was staged.

~~~
dragonwriter
Perhaps, though people are often too quick to conclude that crises are staged
just because governments are prepared to quickly exploit a particular category
of crises to push a pre-existing agenda with motivations only tangential to
the crises, and ultimately the debate over whether the crisis was staged
detracts attention from criticism of the response (especially when the crisis
wasn't staged, and the claim that it was staged can be convincingly rebutted
and used to discredit those questioning the response.)

See, e.g., 9/11 truthers.

~~~
Chris2048
On the other hand, given the Saudis involvement with terrorist activities were
apparently covered up, maybe the 9/11 truthers are right to by cynical?

------
stevecalifornia
"We'd like to join the EU now."

------
sickbeard
Why was everyone screaming democracy when they never had one in the first
place?

~~~
spriggan3
> Why was everyone screaming democracy when they never had one in the first
> place?

Political correctness. Turkey is defacto ruled by a brutal dictatorship now,
the failed coup was the last chance of restoring actual democracy in Turkey.
The Turkish constitution is actually good and acknowledge the danger of an
Islamic theocracy. The role of the Turkish army is/was to prevent it.They
failed.

~~~
madelinecameron
I don't think they failed as much as they were never meant to succeed. There
are just so many places where the military could've outright "taken out"
Erdogan but didn't (such as when the "coup" had two jets right next to
Erdogan's jet... but didn't shoot then completely backed off)

This was completely set-up to round up popular support / not make it look
suspicious when Erdogan did exactly this.

~~~
spriggan3
> I don't think they failed as much as they were never meant to succeed

Do you think it was a setup orchestrated by Erdogan ?

------
ihsw
This submission was at the top on the front page -- what happened?

~~~
tim333
HN has a policy for the mods to move stories down that are more politics than
tech/startups.

------
MrZongle2
This does not bode well for Turkey. It is unfathomable how 21,000 teachers
were directly related to the coup attempt.

It makes me think that the coup was Turkey's Reichstag fire moment.

~~~
partisan
Absolutely. From the comfort of the States, I am glad that the coup did not
succeed, but only because Turkey falling into chaos would be beyond terrible.
That said, the recent fallout has all the markings of opportunism and
expansion of power.

~~~
hardlianotion
Not sure I am going to be able to appreciate the difference between chaos and
what seems likely to follow this.

------
guard-of-terra
> are mostly linked with terrorist activities

All of them!?

~~~
TorKlingberg
I wonder how they compiled the list of political undesirables. Local
informants? Targeting ethnic groups?

~~~
ihsw
The intelligence apparatus in Turkey is all-encompassing and pervasive.

A healthy combination of SIGINT, HUMINT, and homicidal madness has brought us
here.

------
JohnStrange
The coup was a last chance effort. Now Turkey has become a totalitarian
dictatorship, there is no doubt about that. To be more precise, it already
lost its status as democracy years ago when Erdogan had hundreds of
prosecutors and policemen fired who dared to investigate corruption within his
family.

But with the latest purges you've got to wonder where they want to get the
replacements from. Any sane person will probably try to leave the country
rather than being clubbed to death by AKP fans.

Moral of the story: NEVER trust or vote for a party that has the word
"justice" in its name.

~~~
James001
The coup was never real to begin with. There have been so many holes in this
narrative that it's like swiss cheese. Why did the military not fire on
Erdogan when he was in their sights? Why did Erdogan even risk flying into
Istanbul when he knew there would've been a significant chance of being shot
down? The answer of course is that he knew there was no risk cause it was a
fake coup to begin with.

~~~
busterarm
He wanted to consolidate his power and it was a really smart and ruthless
move.

It kind of shuts down the potential for any real coup to happen.

~~~
mtgx
It probably will, but at the same time I also feel that these moves are "too
sudden". Too many people are left without a job and hating Erdogan. And now
they can organize. Unless Erdogan intends to kill them all, too, before they
do that.

Putin did all of this on a much slower timescale, and gave the society time to
adapt. Erdogan is not doing that. He's taking all the power all at once, and
throwing out all the opposition out all at once, too.

This might backfire badly, although the "failed coup" certainly gives him a
break to do all this, while the rest of the "normal" population is left
confused and not knowing what to do and who to support next.

By the way, what's happening in Turkey is also an _excellent_ real-world
example of this:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

That's why the "failed coup" was so critical in allowing him to do all of
this. Even if there would've been some of those "good people" that would've
opposed him (although not that much evidence of that in the past few years, it
would seem), they are now paralyzed by this event.

Still, I believe that that this purge is way too sudden and way too large to
not have an "opposite and equal reaction" coming back at Erdogan. But it may
take a while to happen.

~~~
busterarm
I'd love to think that but I am also skeptical.

I've met a lot of Turkish students in New York over the last 10 years who have
absolutely no plans to go back to their country ever.

The friends I had growing up whose parents were Turkish diplomats all have no
plans to go back (their parents/family included) and from what I heard most of
their colleagues found ways to stay as well.

I think many who would react are finding ways to leave instead.

------
ilostmykeys
Obama and Hillary made a huge error in judgment by siding with a fascist. It's
amazing how we haven't gotten ourselves in deep sh!t already given how badly
our leaders judge situations. But maybe we have, and we just don't know it
yet.

~~~
hx87
Yes, how dare they not support a coup against a democratically elected
government!

~~~
ihsw
This is not democracy.

The people had little choice in deciding their fate, now they have no choice.
Erdogan is here to stay -- he will either eventually pass away of old age
(see: Zimbabwe's eternal president, Mugabe) or be assassinated.

------
omegaworks
Betcha they're all Kurdish.

~~~
ebiester
...or at some point had links to the Hizmet (Gulen) movement - whether it be
staying in one of their dorms, or...

------
tremon
At least now all those ISIS combatants have a new place to call home :/

~~~
tim333
They were pretty at home in Turkey in prior times. It may have got tricker for
them now they've bombed Turkey a bit.

