
Teen Marijuana Vaping Soars, Displacing Other Habits - johnny313
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/18/health/teen-drug-use.html
======
whalesalad
The thing that sucks here is the health issues have nothing inherently to do
with THC and everything to do with vaping a black market product that has
shitty ingredients in it.

I live in CA where it is becoming more and more regulated. I have a 'church'
down the street where I can buy stuff at a steeeep discount (no tax, lower
prices)... but I go to the regulated places the next town over (higher taxes,
higher prices) that do lab testing and have their products sealed with a lab
certificate.

As soon as I learned that the underground trap shops were buying, cleaning and
refilling used cartriges with god knows what I stopped going to the churches.

~~~
kalessin
I am not a doctor but from what I have been reading, consuming THC on a
regular basis before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of
brain development) is definitely a bad idea, as it will prevent the
endocannabinoid system to develop correctly. I would not dismiss teen
smoking/vaping as a public health concern, it's not just about counterfeiting,
I think we need better education about the risks and benefits.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
I'm very much for pro-fact-based drug education. Not just for THC, but for the
most common things that folks can come into contact with. No scare tactics,
just answering questions like what happens to one's body, what "high" feels
like, realistic methods of ingestion, and benefits.

Unfortunately, the greater public - the government at least - hasn't been so
keen on such things because the focus is more on keeping drugs a scary evil.
Even current drug education is such, though thankfully it isn't so "Drugs are
bad, mkay?" as it was during the 'just say no' heydays in the 80's and 90's.

~~~
bdamm
Indeed, we seem to have ample evidence that Tylenol seems to be strongly
associated with autism[1] and weakly with ADHD[2], yet its use is not only
widespread but unquestioned. The problem, of course, is that it's complicated;
correlation isn't necessarily causation. So how to respond? Should all high
school students be taught how to think critically of bioscience results? It's
not easy to distill down to distinct usable facts. Suggesting at all that it
is safe for teens to vape THC is a very dangerous proposition. I think you'd
have to at least prove that it is safer than lead in gasoline, and that is not
easy.

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737)
[2]
[https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/10...](https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/10/26/peds.2016-3840)

~~~
Geimfari
Your first source is a bad one but here is a review: [1] The association is
really not strong but the authors do advice against indiscriminate paracetamol
use.

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29341895](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29341895)
[2]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930528](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930528)

~~~
knight17
Is there any alternatives suggested for this medicine?

~~~
thrower123
Naproxen is far, far better for pain, and doesn't have anywhere near the
possibility of cooking your liver.

~~~
aceofspades19
Umm NSAIDs like Naproxen have their own list of issues which may be worse than
Tylenol. Another issue is that Tylenol is often used because it does not
interact with other NSAIDs so if you are not sure if someone has taken
medication with a NSAID in it, you can safely give them Tylenol, generally
speaking, where as if you give them more NSAIDs you could potentially risk an
overdose. So its not as simple as Napoxen is superior to Tylenol. IANAD,

------
alistproducer2
>Vaping of marijuana was at the root of a public health crisis that unfolded
this summer

The fact that it takes the author two more paragraphs to elucidate that the
illness was in fact linked to bootleg, vitamin E-containing cartridges is
disappointing, but not surprisingly. That fact seems really material to the
argument.

~~~
Gatsky
The investigation is ongoing, vitamin E is not confirmed as the causal agent.

Anyway, the problem is actually people inhaling random chemicals, a problem
which vaping has gifted to us. There will be other cases of lung injury
unrelated to vitamin E.

Frankly, even 1 more dead guy is too many, I support a total ban on vaping.

~~~
tannedNerd
So I also assume you fully support prohibition of alcohol then? Since it kills
1,000s a year in the US?

~~~
Gatsky
This is a foolish argument. 1. Vaping is at the stage where it can be
controlled, whereas alcohol is beyond that point. Public health is not best
served by a logically coherent approach where every product is treated fairly.
2. Alcohol will not burn your lungs and kill you in a few days at recommended
usage levels, whereas vaping random juice apparently will.

~~~
jrace
Drinking ISO alcohol will make you go blind. Drinking moonshine can kill you.

------
noobermin
It's funny because for years, as the opening of the article suggests, usual
teenage vices (booze, drugs, and sex) have been dropping contrary to 80s teen
movie stereotypes. FWIW, apart from the potential concerns with inhaling
vaporized anything--something people skeptical of vaping point to although the
science hasn't really established if it is harmful or not yet, weed is
certainly the weakest of drugs (including alcohol) wrt harm for the body.

~~~
anyanswers
> weed is certainly the weakest of drugs (including alcohol) wrt harm for the
> body.

is the brain a part of the body?

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930618/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930618/)

[https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-
brain](https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain)

~~~
Pigo
I know people who are extremely dependent on weed, who will have anxiety
attacks without it. It's less dangerous than most drugs, but there are people
who are important to me that I wish could function without it. I'm talking
grown adults, with families, who do nothing but play video games.

Their problems would exist without the weed, but it seems to play a part in
their stagnation. I guess I just don't know that many people who will just
occasionally smoke it, it seems to turn into a lifestyle as much as any other
drug.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
"... who will have anxiety attacks without it."

Honestly, I've met _many_ daily smokers in my life. Heck, I've been one off
and on and tend to like to do it most weekends. I greatly prefer it to
alcohol.Most folks can quit quite easily: At most, a few weeks of decreased
appetite and trouble falling asleep. The worst effects wear off in the first
week. The few folks I've met that have trouble without it have mental health
issues, such as anxiety attacks. The worst thing about that situation is that
one has to be able to find decent medical care and risk getting anxiety
attacks - which I've read are horribly scary - to feel comfortable giving up
smoking. And even then they might find that the smoking helps the best with
the fewest side effects...unfortunately.

Also, most adults I've met who smoke regularly do all the family stuff just
fine. They work, they play with their kids (more happily when a little
stoned!), and so on. I mean, sure, it makes you more happy with a slightly
messier house and more happy just _being_ , but the other thing with that
lowered happiness thresh hold is being happier when going on walks or playing
boring kids games. Sure, happier with a slightly messier house but also
happier to do the cleaning. Happier to eat more healthily, and so on.

~~~
Pigo
I'm definitely not trying to blame weed, if people can use it responsibly I
say great! The problem is people who have conditions like anxiety who become
dependent on it to get by. Some people become alcoholics because they have
stuff going on that they can't deal with, and that doesn't mean I think
alcohol should be illegal. But just like them, I wish the drug wasn't a
numbing agent that prevents them from dealing with the underlying problem.

~~~
citruscomputing
How do you feel about people becoming dependent on prescription ADHD
medications?

~~~
Pigo
Oh, don't get me started on that. Not just ADHD, but antidepressants and
anxiety medication as well. Of course there are people with legitimate needs,
and boys who truly can't pay attention, but the over-prescription of these
medications is negatively effecting way too many people.

Not working on your issues, and just masking them with a chemical should be a
short term solution. These drugs are worse in my opinion, and I could ramble
for a long time on my reasons.

The money they cost and dr's never having an exit strategy for the patient,
are my biggest concerns. I've never heard of a dr informing a patient on how
difficult getting off these things are. Presumably because they want you to
take it forever, or they have no clue. And there are definitely too many boys
who just don't get the attention they need, or have more energy than someone
likes, so their behavior becomes a disease.

I drink sometimes, and have been known to do other things. But I feel like
everyone should be striving for the ability to get through life without
'needing' chemicals. Sometimes people forget how wonderful you can feel when
you are clean, eating right, and exercising. They start to think they are
incomplete without some chemical. Of course we all fail at being perfect, but
it's a goal worth struggling towards.

------
proc0
I'm an avid user for many years, and when I used vaping pens for a couple
weeks, I felt the damage in my lungs, it was uncomfortable. Burning oil was a
little better but it still felt like the hot air was burning your lungs, and
burning wax had a completely different problem where I literally felt wax on
my esophagus and lungs the more I vaped. Never had any of these problems
smoking from a bong. I'll stick to what has been tried and tested for
centuries if not millenia.

~~~
nwienert
You may have been a bit paranoid, wax isn't actually wax it's just pressed
weed so you remove plant matter. When you smoke it through water it you're
inhaling a healthier product because you're not incinerating leaves and stems,
and typically you're doing it at a more controlled and lower temperature.

~~~
proc0
This was wax/shatter inside a vape pen. I'm sure it was the correct use.
Whether or not that is actual wax, it definitely left some kind of residue
that I could detect just by breathing.

------
wbronitsky
The article starts with something that is, by most accounts, harm reduction
among teenagers: “Teenagers are drinking less alcohol, smoking fewer
cigarettes and trying fewer hard drugs, new federal survey data shows. But
these public health gains have been offset by a sharp increase in vaping of
marijuana and nicotine..." The statistics, unused in this article, are quite
clear: alcohol, tobacco and hard drugs more harmful to personal and societal
health than marijuana.

But then the NYT proceeds to whip up some nonsense about how harmful vaping
marijuana is, staring, and really ending, as we have no clue how harmful this
behavior is, with a quote: “'This is a very, very worrisome trend..."

This is fear mongering, pure and simple.

~~~
nfoz
But are they vaping _instead_ of those other things, or were we witnessing a
decrease in the other things until vaping happened?

~~~
wbronitsky
I doubt the data source can tell us this information. It asks students what
drugs they have taken at what intervals, and does not seek to address the
"why." Hence the pearl clutching by the NYT to provide the "why" for us.

Either way, we have no clue as to the harm that vaping causes us; we are
rather certain of the harm alcohol, cigarettes and hard drugs cause us. The
numbers in TFA are still pretty bad: ~17% of these kids have vaped THC in the
past month where as ~50% had drank alcohol. Even if this was a tradeoff, it
seems like a good one at this point.

------
berniepebbles
Here are the factors that come to mind regarding the popularity of vape pens.

1) Availability Bias - The weed pen can be on your desk or in your pocket.
Coca Cola exploits this human misjudgement, and that's why you can have Coca
cola all around the world. The takeaway is that you're more likely to consume
because it is there.

2) Mobility - It's mobile, unlike a bong. Get high right before your favorite
song at a concert. Whip out the vape pen.

3) Stealth A) (Form Factor) - I think these are becoming popular with
teenagers primarily because, if a teenager wants to smoke in their parents
house, and avoid detection from their parents, a vape pen is less obvious. The
pen is objectively easier to hide than a flower setup.

B) (Stench) Vape pens don't smell as much. I've seen signs on businesses
refusing service due to the marijuana stench on customers. People even smoke
vapes in public and it's indistinguishable from vaping tobacco unless closely
inspected or smelled. (The smell from vape pens exists, it's less noticeable
than flower.)

4) Convenience - The steps to smoke a vape pen (push of a button and inhale)
are simpler than the process of smoking out of a bong. We're dealing with
stoners here! (Not all stoners are lazy, but many stereotypes are loosely
based on truths.)

------
trianglem
I don’t understand why everyone moved away from directly smoking the flowers
so readily. I hated the idea of shatter/resin when I first heard it and there
is no way I would use a vape pen.

~~~
umvi
Because lighting carbon-based molecules on fire creates thousands of
carcinogenic components that are difficult to enumerate.

Vapor, on the other hand, (theoretically) contains only 3 chemicals: glycerin,
propylene glycol, <nicotine/THC/active stimulant>. In practice though, vapor
has probably thousands of compounds as well due to "flavors", additives, and
side effects of the heating coil on those things.

It's all about perception though. Lighting something on fire and inhaling
smoke is perceived as dangerous compared to inhaling "vapor" (which everyone
does every day in the shower, right?)

~~~
nickthegreek
vape flower and you cut out glycerin and propylene glycol.

~~~
antoniuschan99
I always thought rosin is the best since it sounds like the cleanest extract.
Is that true? If you vape rosin, then you should eliminate even the
carcinogens from the plant matter?

------
lacker
This is great news. Vaping is far better for your health than alcohol or
cigarettes.

~~~
throwaway07Ju19
"Teen Marijuana Vaping Soars" is objectively not great news. Subjectively it
might be great news if the vaping THC dose was low, but it is not.

There is no technology that makes alcohol 100X stronger for todays teen than
what it has been historically. But that's not true for THC products. On a
personal note, I lost my hearing in one ear immediately after trying a strong
MJ product. I just assumed it was congestion at the time but 10 months later I
still have 70% hearing loss. I don't share this story with anyone because
speaking ill of THC is heresy these days and a sure way to get downvoted.

~~~
newman8r
I've never heard of anything like that happening (and admittedly I'm
skeptical) - can you expand on the event that caused you to lose your hearing?
What did your doctors say about it?

~~~
throwaway07Ju19
I had perfect hearing in that ear, smoked a high THC joint, and felt
immediately congested. Congestion usually makes hearing diminish temporarily.
But the next morning I still felt _congested_ and then spent several weeks
trying to yawn it away and get my ear to pop. Three weeks later I went to the
doctor who diagnosed me with "sudden nerve deafness". Medically there is no
known cause for sudden nerve deafness and the doctor had no idea either. But I
did have a cold the weeks before, so who knows.

So yes, it could be this was all just a co-incidence but the precise timing of
it all should give everyone pause. I did Google for similar stories and I did
find one person with a similar story who was immediately dismissed because no
one ever heard of such a thing. I do wonder how many people restrain from
reporting such effects since the counter-argument is to provide casual
evidence or get a doctor to confirm which is often not possible.

For sure there is a gross disparity in tolerance these days and you should
avoid sharing hits of THC with _anyone_ if your tolerance is low. They'll be
fine, you on the other hand may have an experience you weren't expecting.

~~~
newman8r
Thanks for sharing, hard to tell what to make of that - I think it warrants
some investigation though. I wonder if there's anyone who'd want to make an
anecdotal report on something like this.

------
bryanlarsen
Marijuana extracts for vaping become legally available in much of Canada
tomorrow.

~~~
deerIRL
Yesterday actually. My local dispensary had them in stock from Canaca already.

------
cyberpip
Let them vape just like we, as a society, let people smoke cigarettes, drink
alcohol, and consume fast food and sugar. I feel like the trend to outlaw
things like kratom and vaping is so hypocritical, I can only assume it's
because they compete against big tobacco/pharma, not any kind of altruistic
research.

------
arkanciscan
Imagine how many people would still be alive today, how many kids wouldn't
have lost everything to truly harmful drugs, if this ridiculous prohibition
had never been in place.

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sysbin
The piece is built for fear mongering but I'm curious how the developing brain
of an adolescent will be changed from constant marijuana use and compared to
if it had never happened. I'm guessing how the drug is used would also be
important in the longterm outcome because someone using it to help with
anxiety might benefit compared to a developing brain under a lot of anxiety.

~~~
stevenwoo
overview of studies
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930618/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930618/)
Every measurement of brain function decreased significantly with marijuana
use, long term abstention seemed to clear up some problems, though physical
changes in brain did not go away in users who started as adolescents, there
were long term permanent changes to brain function.

~~~
sysbin
Thanks for replying with that research. I'll check it out and I'm not sure why
my comment is being downvoted for curiosity.

------
dghughes
Two of the worst seem to be pulegone (mint flavour) and benzaldehyde (almond).
The heating of the compounds is what causes the changes they are OK to eat but
not heat and inhale.

[https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/vaping-liquid-
tests-1.5381363](https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/vaping-liquid-tests-1.5381363)

------
neonate
[http://archive.md/d62Cr](http://archive.md/d62Cr)

------
mnm1
> The rate of overall marijuana use held steady for high school students who
> reported using it once or more over the past year, but there was an uptick
> in daily use.

Marijuana use has NOT increased and more teens are vaping instead of smoking,
consuming it in safer ways than ever before. Sounds like great news. Too bad
the headline is clickbait bullshit.

~~~
mythrwy
Maybe teen reporting of marijuana use has increased now it's more socially
acceptable to be out the closet about it.

------
tomphoolery
makes sense to me!

------
excalibur
That's wonderful. It's the most dangerous form of vaping and the most
dangerous use of cannabis (aside from DUI), finding popularity with one of the
most at-risk demographics.

~~~
seattle_spring
Vaping is the most dangerous use of cannabis? Can you share some citations on
that claim?

~~~
excalibur
I was referring to the whole vitamin E acetate fiasco. Smoking marijuana
doesn't kill people, at least not directly. Of course this risk decreases if
you're not using black-market products, but since marijuana is generally
prohibited for teens, they're already guaranteed to be acquiring them through
illicit channels. Placing responsibility for their safety in the hands of
their drug dealers seems disingenuous.

------
ars
Unlike other drugs (smoking, drinking) adults (at least the noisy ones online)
very much want marijuana.

And because of that they are very poorly motivated to stop its use among
teens.

So this isn't going to get better, it'll get much worse.

Adults also believe marijuana use is perfectly fine, and risk free, which may
or may not be true for adults, but is not true for teens.

But because they believe it's risk free they aren't exactly telling teens not
to use it.

And keep in mind: those adults who really want to use marijuana are the
"nosiest" online, which is where teens get all their info.

~~~
gewrtw45
It's very true on HN. Marijuana it's heavily promoted here.

~~~
LanceH
Some promote the drug itself. Probably a lot more are behind the freedom to
use what you want (and against the heavy criminalization). There are probably
a fair number that would see the drug continue to be banned, but are just
against the biased, fear-mongering, moral panic inducing "journalism" we see
from once reputable establishments like the NYT.

