

37signals Launches Haystack for Web Designers and Clients To Find Each Other - tptacek
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1976-launch-haystack-a-better-way-for-web-designers-to-find-clients-and-for-clients-to-find-web-designers

======
dhh
We originally wanted to do this for web developers, but we didn't find it to
be very useful without the visual component.

With web design, you can very quickly scroll through a lot of portfolios and
find a style you like. That wouldn't work at all with web developers and
backend code.

We're going to be launching the index page shortly and it'll become even
clearer why this form only works for visual works.

~~~
sachinag
I'm not sure you need the visual component for developers - the hard part is
getting a sense for what things cost, how long they take, and how people work.

Turns out those things are really hard to get a feeling for in isolation, but
in comparisons, people are really good at it. I know I want an iPhone app; I
come across <http://www.flingmedia.com/>, and the contact us form gives me his
rates. Then you try to see if Brian's rates are valid; the pricing itself
gives a marker of credibility. If Brian's rates are in line with what I see
elsewhere, and his portfolio seems directionally suggestive enough that he can
build what he says he can build, at the very least, I'm going to contact him.
The conversation with Brian will tell me, as a client, if he'd be good to work
with. Sure, it takes more work - you can't make judgments based so heavily on
portfolios - but I really think Haystack would be really helpful to both
clients and developers. (So, please, add developers!)

Semi-related, I'll bet you a dollar that people will be looking for local
designers before they look at portfolios (rather than starting with
portfolios) because you give them that option. For developers, I bet they'd do
the same. You'll be able to track that relatively easily.

~~~
dcurtis
Just curious: why do you think people care about geography more than skill?

~~~
tptacek
I don't know about Sachin, but we like working with locals so we can meet them
face to face without paying thousands for travel expenses.

~~~
alabut
To keep the logic going (that Dustin may have been implying) - why meet face-
to-face and pay thousands for travel expenses?

~~~
mediaman
\- People prioritize those who they have met in person: it's why in-person
meetings are so important in sales.

\- There's a higher likelihood they share networks, or have the potential to
share networks, which provides additional incentive to do a good job.

In short, all the reasons that geography still matters in most businesses.

~~~
tptacek
I was just thinking, so we could share a piece of paper to draw on. But those
reasons make sense too.

~~~
alabut
You can be separated by distance and still easily use paper to quickly iterate
through ideas. 37signals themselves do this - they're geographically
distributed yet use Sharpies to think through rough interface ideas:

<http://37signals.com/svn/posts/466-sketching-with-a-sharpie>

[http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1880-the-different-sketch-
sty...](http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1880-the-different-sketch-styles-of-
the-designers-at-37signals)

All of my freelance clients in the last few years have been startups in the
Bay Area (where I live) so I understand all of those reasons and the benefits
of proximity. Hell, I wouldn't have moved up here if I hadn't read Hackers And
Painters in 2005 - I wanted to be where the action was. But I've been slowly
doing less and less on-site work and have gotten to the point where I don't do
much more than weekly meetings and not even that with some clients, so I can't
help but realize that I could've technically been anywhere in the world for
all intents and purposes. And these aren't low-paying entry level portfolio
builders either, it's real paying work with the same challenges as always.

So again, are the reasons for working with a local designer more important
than overall skill and portfolio?

------
sachinag
One piece of feedback: we've found that buyers don't think in ranges; they
think in terms of budgets. If my budget is $10,000, I don't just want to see
the $3K-$10K range; I'd want to see all the designers under $10K, so that I'd
see the under $3K and the $3K-$10K group all at once.

EDIT: Second piece of feedback: you should add a "see other designers like
this" on the page. For example, for <http://haystack.com/company/161-right-
sizer>, there should be a link to see all other Chicago designers under $3K.
(I got to this page by clicking on its card on the front page of the site.)

~~~
jasonfried
Good ideas/feedback. Thanks for posting.

------
fjabre
Here's another feature I'd like to see: Availability.

This is the most frustrating thing about any designer I've ever contacted or
worked with.. Half the time their plates are so full that you can't get a
slot.. I'd like to know that in advance so I have a better idea of wait time..

~~~
joshwa
Behance.net has a feature like that:

    
    
      Status:
    
      (x) On Fire
      ( ) Busy
      ( ) Available
      ( ) Bored

------
jsdalton
Cool.

For comparison's sake, this is very similar to another website that's been
around for a few years, Carbonmade (<http://carbonmade.com>). Carbonmade is a
bit broader than just web design, but it's likewise beautifully designed and
it's also a lot cheaper ($12/month for a pro account).

I don't mean to take away anything from this particular announcement or
product, but I think it's useful to consider existing products as well in the
contexts of discussions like this one.

(FWIW I have no affiliation whatsoever with Carbonmade.)

~~~
pkaler
A rising tide raises all ships. I think this announcement is great for
Carbonmade.

For example, I heard of online invoicing when I came across Freshbooks.
However, I did some research and went with Harvest.

I think people will see Haystack, see the value proposition, do some research,
and then Google search and come across Carbonmade.

I think Haystack will be successful. And I think that will make Carbonmade
more successful, too. Haystack legitimizes the market.

------
ryanwaggoner
At $99 / month for Pro accounts, I can see 37 signals making a small fortune
off of this.

~~~
adamhowell
They've already reached the 1,000 pre-signups and have at least 20+ pro
accounts. They made a (very) small fortune in less than 5 hours.

If they can give designers a decent return and keep clients coming back...
wow.

~~~
tjogin
It didn't require a super-unique idea that needed to be rushed to market
before the window of opportunity closed, either. Just another common idea,
executed well. (Ok, so they're not quite there yet.)

~~~
doug_m
Not just a well executed idea.

Its another situation like StackOverflow where they can tackle chicken and egg
situation others can't because of their exposure.

~~~
10ren
Not just exposure, but exposure to the right two communities: many designers
follow them, and many coders. These groups tend not to hang out (like biz and
coder guys don't...). If there aren't any other intersections, it's a _unique_
competitive advantage.

Perhaps the trick is also in knowing what you got; and what problems others
have got.

hmmm... I do wonder if some kind of specific advertising like this was a
thought very early on for them when they started dedicating themselves to
blogging, speaking to build an audience, as a financial rationalization of
what they wanted to do anyway. :-)

~~~
dpcan
Yes, they will get sign-ups because designers and coders know about them. But
if I went to ANY of my web design clients from the last 7 years, I would have
to say that maybe 1% or less of them EVER heard of 37Signals.

That being said, it looks to me like a bust in the making because if only
other designers are looking at your $100 per month "ad", then it's actually
working against you.

~~~
10ren
I was thinking that coders need designers; but you're saying that, in fact,
clients are neither.

hmm.. I bet that _some_ coders do need designers (e.g. if the coder was hired
first), but it's probably a tiny tiny fraction of all clients.

------
ubernostrum
And the overloading of the name continues...

(see <http://haystacksearch.org/> for example)

------
ansonparker
I must admit I can't help feel a little cynical about this project.

If an unknown company had launched this website I doubt it would have made
anyone's radar, let alone have found a willing group of companies to pay
$100/month. If it only works because 37 Signals made it and promoted it (as
opposed to being an elegant solution to a problem) is it not a little
exploitative?

Haystack's simplicity comes from a dearth of functionality and a small number
of users -- neither of these are sustainable in the medium-term for the
project to remain viable in its market (which, despite 37 Signal's claims, is
pretty well serviced).

They risk damaging their brand by creating a feature-light product that
doesn't exhibit any capability to grow beyond a small number of portfolios.
They could well find an increasingly dissatisfied group of customers demanding
features and results for their $100/month. It will be interesting to see how
they keep these people happy while continuing to look after their other
interests.

~~~
cmac
> If an unknown company had launched this website I doubt it would have made
> anyone's radar

I think that's one of the perks of becoming successful ;) The app rides on the
fame that comes with Basecamp's success and there's nothing wrong with that!

I agree, though, that US$99 is quite pricey considering that you'll still be a
needle in a haystack (albeit a smaller haystack). If I paid that rate, I'd
want more tools for my profile of clients to narrow down on me.

~~~
tjogin
Assuming your exposure on Haystack brought you business worth substantially
more than $99 a month, why ought you be in a position to demand anything at
all?

------
tocomment
Can web programmers get in on this? What do I put for a picture if I mostly do
back-end work?

~~~
dhh
It's not designed for people who just do back-end work. If you're a shop that
does both front- and back-end work, then you're more than welcome to join
though!

------
RyanMcGreal
>What does your work looks like?

And did you proofread it?

------
tiffani
Will there eventually be a way to separate out folks who just do design
(static pages, etc.) vs. folks who've designed actual web apps? Maybe tags or
something would help.

------
Tichy
A better filter than just "Other Cities" would be nice.

~~~
dhh
Agree. We're working on that. Stay tuned.

------
sant0sk1
Too bad it doesn't also target web _developers_.

~~~
adamhowell
Seems like a market opportunity to me. How would a developer best pimp their
wares?

Screenshots of sites they programmed wouldn't be as useful as they are for
designers. Clients wouldn't understand code snippets...

~~~
sachinag
A developer pimps his wares by 1) still having a portfolio of sites they've
worked on, 2) being able to have a reasonable conversation, and 3) being
competitive on price.

You have no idea how goddamn hard it is to find developers - they're generally
terrible at any semblence of marketing. And I say this as someone who spent
over $100,000 on a web development firm for my startup before I was able to
recruit an internal team. Everyone knows about Pivotal Labs, but after that,
it's all-but-impossible to know where to look.

~~~
tocomment
Pivotal Labs?

~~~
harpastum
Looks like [1] they're a web design firm that's created web sites for twitter,
Urban Dictionary, Alexa, and Best Buy.

[1] <http://pivotallabs.com/clients>

------
ironkeith
I'm curious as to how they picked the list of cities. By population?

~~~
dhh
Initially, yes. We picked the top cities by population in the US. We're going
to change that shortly, though, so it's based on the number of firms in those
cities. That way London or Berlin or Tokyo or whatever can bubble up on the
list if there's a large number of firms listing from there.

------
jmtame
have always wanted to build something like this

~~~
redorb
yeah I even registered aHayStack.com and some other domain names - I don't
think it would work as good for anyone with less "web design equity" as
37signals.

~~~
jmtame
this would have made for a great yc company.. maybe jobspice can branch out
into this niche space a bit

