
Spouses of H-1B Visa Holders May Soon Be Allowed to Work in the U.S. - dashausbass
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2014/04/10/spouses-of-h1-b-visa-holders-may-soon-be-allowed-to-work-in-the-u-s/
======
makmanalp
On one side I'm extremely happy that this might come to pass (might is a
keyword in immigration legislation) because I personally know people who have
been affected by this and can't work even though they're there. It's extremely
frustrating for them to say the least, and extremely silly that people who
want to be productive members of society can't.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how fair it is to all the people who applied
for an H-1B last year and this year who were forced to participate in the H-1B
lottery and couldn't get into the quota of 85000. Now one winning lottery spot
could be worth two workers instead of one. Who's to say that the spouse, who
didn't even have to go through the trouble of finding an employer, convincing
them to sponsor, applying, waiting for the lottery results, etc is more
deserving of a work permit than those who did but just weren't lucky enough to
win the quota lottery?

I'm ashamed that I'm thinking of something so petty when I should be happy for
those people, but having lost the lottery once, I can't help but feel a small
tinge of jealousy and resentment.

I would be happier if none of this was an issue in the first place.

~~~
koenigdavidmj
I had a coworker who was stuck in limbo for a couple months due to this crap.
His wife was not allowed to work due to this issue, and he wasn't allowed to
work while some bureaucratic thing was being resolved. They were not allowed
to leave the US for their home country, either, so they just had to live on
savings for this period.

~~~
jrockway
Unless he was out on bail, or something, he was definitely allowed to leave.
The US has no exit immigration.

(Being allowed to come back after leaving is a whole different thing, though,
which is probably what you meant.)

~~~
dragonwriter
> The US has no exit immigration.

On a somewhat pedantic tangent, "immigration", by definition, is inbound. The
outbound equivalent is "emigration".

~~~
jrockway
I should have said "passport controls" or something.

------
gdilla
Great! I had so many colleagues in this situation - invariably it made
starting a family more attractive as one spouse was basically stay-at-home
anyway.

I understand that Americans want jobs for Americans, but bringing in
immigrants and letting them work means you get taxpayers whose education was
subsidized by a foreign government. They basically are net contributors to the
economy upon their first paycheck. The higher skilled they are, the more
dramatic this effect. It seems like a huge net win to the US economy.

I'm sure there's a good counterargument to this, but I'm biased being an
immigrant myself.

~~~
djb_hackernews
I'll provide a counter argument.

The foreign workers aren't actually that high skilled and their education is
questionable.

So upon their first paycheck they are displacing local workers who could also
do the job, putting extra pressure on local economies that they didn't "pay
into", and giving more power to employers based on the restrictive nature of
these foreign worker visas.

~~~
ulfw
Yea. Because all locals are so highly educated. Have you seen CS departments
at major school in the US? Look at the demographics and then think again.

~~~
djb_hackernews
I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make. That US CS programs
aren't as rigorous as foreign programs? That US CS programs aren't also filled
with foreign students, further displacing and out pricing citizens?

My point is, we have 1.7 Million college educated grads currently
unemployed[0].

We have an estimated 650,000 H1B workers[1].

I'd say we have plenty of educated, hard working, and able citizens to fill
these positions.

[0][http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm](http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm)

[1][https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11](https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11)

~~~
makmanalp
There are many assumptions here that you should question.

\- That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed work in the same
field as the H-1B workers. H-1B workers tend to commonly be in engineering /
science / medecine / etc. Mostly Bachelors in Science degrees. The most common
majors in the US are mostly BA degrees. You can't just plop those people into
what they're not trained in.

\- That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed are unemployed
because of H1B workers, and that if those workers weren't there, the
unemployed college grads would be employed.

\- That any worker can be anywhere at any time. If a company is in North
Dakota and needs a programmer, it doesn't matter that there are 1000
unemployed American programmers in New York.

\- That when someone graduates, they're able to perform their profession up to
the standard required. That they are "good". This should be laughable if
you've ever been to any college short of the top 30. 1.7 million graduates
don't mean 1.7 million desirable employees.

Unemployment sure is a huge problem, but I think you might be barking up the
wrong tree here if you're looking for a cause. Getting rid of the H-1B is not
going to help much, from what I can tell.

~~~
djb_hackernews
> \- That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed work in the same
> field as the H-1B workers. H-1B workers tend to commonly be in engineering /
> science / medecine / etc. Mostly Bachelors in Science degrees. The most
> common majors in the US are mostly BA degrees. You can't just plop those
> people into what they're not trained in.

I don't believe that a Bachelors degree necessarily limits your career
options. Holding a four year degree basically means you are trainable,
committed, and follow the rules. The ideal employee. I'm willing to disagree
on this point.

> \- That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed are unemployed
> because of H1B workers, and that if those workers weren't there, the
> unemployed college grads would be employed.

I made no such statement.

> \- That any worker can be anywhere at any time. If a company is in North
> Dakota and needs a programmer, it doesn't matter that there are 1000
> unemployed American programmers in New York.

This comment makes no sense when we are talking about foreign workers who have
to cross continents and oceans to get to North Dakota

> \- That when someone graduates, they're able to perform their profession up
> to the standard required. That they are "good". This should be laughable if
> you've ever been to any college short of the top 30. 1.7 million graduates
> don't mean 1.7 million desirable employees.

I think you are just repeating your first point here. I'd be willing to bet
90% of H1Bs don't hold degrees from the top 30, or whatever arbitrary cutoff
you have. I'm not interested in pedigree. 1.7 million graduates should
certainly be 1.7 million desirable employees (or at least 650k), and if it
isn't, then it sounds like we found the root cause.

> Unemployment sure is a huge problem, but I think you might be barking up the
> wrong tree here if you're looking for a cause. Getting rid of the H-1B is
> not going to help much, from what I can tell.

I never once suggested that H1B is the cause of unemployment.

~~~
Aloha
> \- I don't believe that a Bachelors degree necessarily limits your career
> options. Holding a four year degree basically means you are trainable,
> committed, and follow the rules. The ideal employee. I'm willing to disagree
> on this point.

Some employers wont touch you for entry level roles, because they assume with
a degree, you'd jump ship for something better paying in your field at the
first chance.

~~~
jasonlotito
That only enforces the GP's point.

------
gopalv
Speaking as someone who moved to America on H1B with my wife - this is
promising.

In the back of my head, I'm preparing to go back next year if my awesome wife
can't find anything to do - missed this year's H1 cap already.

It's frustrating to watch her get depressed sitting at home and feeling like
she's missing out. It's making me angry to come home every day to find her
turning her energy inwards into frustration.

She's more talented than me, just not in tech - she's into ads.

The ad industry does not have the patience of the IT industry when it comes to
keeping a req open for 6 months while the H1 processes.

Australia & Canada are attractive options in my radar.

At least, I'm sure I can work on hadoop from anywhere and get paid to ship
open source code.

~~~
untitledwiz
UK and Germany would also be good options. I know the UK has a points based
system so if you are highly educated with a good salary in the US you will
most likely meet the highly skilled point quota and receive a work permit.

~~~
cesarbs
Would you know how hard it is to obtain permanent residency in those
countries?

~~~
Saad_M
In the UK if you have a Tier 2 visa then you apply for "Indefinite leave to
remain" after 5 years of residency. The only restrictions are that you cannot
spend more than 180 days outside the UK in any 12 months and your employer
(sponsor) still needs you for your job.

------
shenoybr
The proposal does not give a blanket approval for spouses of H1-B workers to
work. It only allows spouses, for those H1-B holders who have maxed out the
original 6 years on their visa and are now awaiting their turn in line for
Green Cards (which for India and China is ridiculously long).

But it still is progress.

I'd hope they remove country based discrimination in EB visas. And better yet
pass immigration reform sooner rather than later.

Edit: Here is the link to the original proposal:
[http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20121...](http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20121.).

~~~
DVassallo
For a country founded on the "self evident truth" that "all men are created
equal", it is really sad to see discriminatory lines based on the "country of
birth" [1]. It's not even based on nationality, but on country of birth, so
applicants are effectively being considered "created differently" depending on
random circumstances at birth.

[1] [http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-
policy...](http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-
policy/bulletin/2014/visa-bulletin-for-april-2014.html)

~~~
neilparikh
Just a quick confirmation, this applies to Green Cards only, and not H1Bs,
right?

~~~
DVassallo
AFAIK it does not apply to H1Bs, but many other visa categories discriminate
based on country of birth / nationality.

~~~
neilparikh
This really gives me second thoughts about going into CS, as someone who was
born in India (but is now a Canadian citizen (which apparently doesn't matter
at all)).

------
jameshart
Having been through the process of being on an L-1 and having an L-2 wife who
is permitted to work, it creates an interesting dynamic. The primary
visaholder is tied to the sponsoring company - if they lose their job, both
visas disappear. They clearly have less leverage in negotiating salary with
their employer, with really only the visa requirement that they be paid a fair
rate to protect their interests. The limited transferability of H1Bs gives
them a little leverage - L-1s have no such negotiating power, other than the
market rate for their skills overseas.

The working spouse, on the other hand, is a relatively free participant in the
employment market, so has far more leverage - able to freely negotiate salary
(or to start a company of their own, or whatever). Of course they have hanging
over them the risk that the master visa might go away at any time and they
would be forced to stop working (and probably sell up and leave the country),
but there is at least employment protection law to stop employers
discriminating against a person who has the legal right to work on the basis
of how they acquired that right.

~~~
tpurves
The whole US immigration process is full of craziness. This is pretty well
understood. That being said, in my own experience I feel very fortunate
compared to many stories I hear. Came in on an L1 visa just over 2yrs ago, my
wife was able to work immediately. In SF where we live, having two incomes is
very helpful. Almost to the day, 2yrs after arriving processing completed on
the green cards which we both now have.

Whole process was paid for by my employer (a large US multinational) that
regularly needs to move people around all over the world and is very well
organized and takes good care of it's people (and their families) in that
regard.

Despite itself, sometimes the process works and companies act well too. In the
current system, L1 is generally confided the best case scenario for coming to
the US. Any problems you might run into with L1 are still pretty fancy
problems compared with challenges faced by so many others trying to get into
the country.

~~~
rb2k_
I'm currently also an an L1 (B) and I've been thinking about the EB2
greencard. How would you say your experience was with the process?

------
goshx
I hope it is true this time.

I sent a question a few days ago: Ask HN: How many H1B holders here taking the
H4 "punishment"?
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7547839](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7547839)

The current H4 only offers a disruption to the family. Nothing else.

------
FreakNeko
I was an H-1B worker myself and was following this rule making progress. The
rule was not something new -- it was lobbied by big name software companies,
and has been on DHS/USCIS's policy making agenda since 2011 at least:

[http://www.reginfo.gov/public/servlet/ForwardServlet?SearchT...](http://www.reginfo.gov/public/servlet/ForwardServlet?SearchTarget=Agenda&textfield=1615-AB92)

The rule, as its currently proposed form, does not provide automatic work
authorization to spouses of all H-1B workers. Rather, it allows "certain" H-4
spouses to be employment authorized. The subset of eligible H-4 spouses are
defined as those "who have begun the process of seeking lawful permanent
resident status through employment" and apparently before finishing it.
Specifically, their H-1B spouses had to be in H-1B status for more than 6
years and are the beneficiaries of certain pending or approved employment-
based immigrant petitions or labor certification applications.

Congress employs numeric control over the number of employment-based green
cards that can be issued each year. The process is very complicated, and the
wait time is highly dependent on the country in which a beneficiary was born
and the category of green card he/she sought. For beneficiaries from most
countries, the wait for an employment-based green card (once you had an
approved petition) is far less than 6 years. The only country that currently
suffers a more-than-6-year backlog is India, whose current line for the "EB2"
category is 10 years, and "EB3" 11 years. The current "backlog" is published
by Department of State each month:

[http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-
policy...](http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-
policy/bulletin/2014/visa-bulletin-for-may-2014.html)

Most applicants from countries other than those listed can finish their green
card process well within the H-1B's 6-year limit, and do not benefit from this
proposed rule.

------
sharmajai
Link to the whitehouse factsheet announcing this:
[http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-
office/2014/04/07/fact-s...](http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-
office/2014/04/07/fact-sheet-strengthening-entrepreneurship-home-and-abroad)

Relevant excerpt from the section "Attracting the World’s Best and Brightest":
_These proposed regulations include rules authorizing employment for spouses
of certain high-skill workers on H-1B visas, as well as enhancing
opportunities for outstanding professors and researchers._

As to what _certain_ means remains to be seen.

~~~
shenoybr
'certain' in this context means: those H1B holders who have completed 6 years
of the original visa term. They are compelled to either wait and languish in
line, or go back home where their spouse can work.

Edit: Not sure why I got downvoted. I was just paraphrasing the reasons given
in the proposal. Its not an opinion. Don't shoot the messenger. See
[http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20131...](http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201310&RIN=1615-AB92#)

~~~
sharmajai
Where do you see that? If that is the case then it helps only those who
applied for permanent residency late in their 6 year H1-B term hence they
don't have EAD for their spouse through green card application but can extend
their H1-B status indefinitely.

~~~
shenoybr
Here is the link to the original proposal:
[http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20121...](http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201210&RIN=1615-AB92)

------
Deusdies
Uh, don't remind me of H-1B. I am currently on F1 working as a software
developer for a Fortune 500 company (with work permit / OPT), and my
consulting agency said they'll apply for a H-1B visa for me, so I was very
happy.

Turns out, they actually tried to extend my work permit (which they couldn't
in my case since I didn't actually graduate with CSci degree) and now I have
my work permit expiring in July, and not sure if I'll be able to stay in the
country because I'm not sure if H-1B visa will arrive in time.

~~~
craniumrat2
Hi,

If they did file a H1B for you this year, then you should be able to extend
your OPT period till October. It's something called a 'cap gap' fix that was
introduced around a couple of years ago.

[http://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-
workers...](http://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-
workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/extension-post-
completion-optional-practical-training-opt-and-f-1-status-eligible-students-
under-h-1b-cap-gap-regulations)

~~~
Deusdies
Thanks a ton for this! I will forward this to my consulting agency.

------
notnoop
I maybe pessimistic, but I haven't seen any progress in H-4 employment
proposals recently and the article doesn't point to any particular proposal.

The Senate bill for Immigration reform passed the Senate last June, but the
House isn't taking a vote on it.

The house in turn had similar proposals last year in committee, but House
leadership has no plans of putting them to a general vote at least till
November elections.

------
chamanbuga
My lawyer has been quoting this "may soon be allowed to work" for more than 3
years. My wife & I have given up on it. She's resigned to volunteering &
working on hobbies. Considering how split the government is over these matters
I doubt we'll see any reform in the next 5 years.

------
levosmetalo
It's a good news. It's one of the main reasons not to even consider moving to
USA. Now, let's just fix ridiculously high taxes compared to Europe, sane
healthcare system, work conditions and education system, and you might be up
to something.

~~~
free652
>let's just fix ridiculously high taxes compared to Europe,

Eh? Europe has higher taxes.

[http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/50eef524ecad0476690...](http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/50eef524ecad04766900000c-960/tax%20rates%20ranking%20100k.jpg)

~~~
levosmetalo
Maybe higher nominal rates, but USA has much higher tax rates for what you get
out of it.

In many parts of Europe tax include social contributions, so you don't pay
anything additionaly for haelthcare and retirement. You have free or almost
free education up to the university level, subsidized child care, actual
unemployment benefits, good transport infrastructure and many such things that
you need to pay yourself in the USA. If you want to compare real effective tax
rates, just add all these additional expenses to your tax amount and compare
it to Europe.

Than again, the chart doesn't include US state tax, so you are really taking
into account only a part of US tax rate.

~~~
free652
USA has SOCIAL contributions - FICA, SSI, Medicare. That's retirement, care
for disabled and elderly. Our schools ARE free. It's easy to add up my
healthcare insurance which isn't much - $250 per month - less than 2% of my
income.

The chart INCLUDES NYS tax. Source of that charts:

[http://www.businessinsider.com/america-taxes-
charts-2013-1](http://www.businessinsider.com/america-taxes-charts-2013-1)

~~~
laurencerowe
On top of your $250 contribution, your employer will be paying a lot more -
average total premiums are $5,615 for a single person or $15,745 for family
coverage [1]. And that figure excludes co-pays, which unlike the EU can be
huge. Healthcare in the states is just horrifically expensive - 18% of GDP
compared to 9% in the EU (or about 11% in the richer countries.) [1,2]

[1] [http://www.statisticbrain.com/health-insurance-cost-
statisti...](http://www.statisticbrain.com/health-insurance-cost-statistics/)
[2]
[http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/healthspendingineuropefallsfort...](http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/healthspendingineuropefallsforthefirsttimeindecades.htm)

~~~
refurb
That's true, but the employer is the one paying that.

It reminds me of a job offer I had in the UK, which was 30% lower than the
equivalent job in the US. When I visited the site in the UK, the people
working there admitted the wages were lower, but stated "You don't have to pay
for health insurance."

When I mentioned I only paid $150/month, they seemed shocked.

~~~
gclaramunt
you pay $150/month if you DON'T use it. If you need more than just a doctor's
visit, you have minimums to meet even before the insurance starts paying a
part of it

~~~
refurb
True, but you also make much more in salary and pay much less in taxes.

------
Havoc
Progress...I have friends that went to the US on a similar Visa. She works..he
sits at home. The raw skills are there: This is a guy that can take stones
from a nearby hill, build a multi-storey natural stone house and have it pass
structural and regulation specs. Now he sits at home and is bored out of his
mind because he isn't even allowed to build his neighbors drive-way for a
couple of bucks.

I get the need to protect the local people's jobs but that is just criminal
waste in my eyes. Both the ability and the willingness to contribute towards
the GDP/country is there and yet regulation forces him to watch youtube/paint
dry all day.

------
prot
I don't understand immigration restrictions at all. If the US is afraid
foreigners are coming to "take our jobs" and is concerned about its citizens
well being, then why isn't it concerned with the fact that cheap foreign labor
could save money to millions of americans while it currently doesn't, since
immigration is restricted? Or if it is concerned that foreigners are going to
use the social safety net without providing any value, how about not providing
it to foreigners?

There's absolutely no grounds for restricting immigration. The US was built on
immigrants and now somehow it is no longer a viable policy?

------
eam
>The U.S. is planning changes to the immigration rules that will make the
country more attractive to talented foreign entrepreneurs and other high-
skilled immigrants, the White House said in a statement Monday.

Yeah, let's go ahead make it more attractive for talented foreign
entrepreneurs, BUT let's only offer a few 65,000 H-1B visas per year... What's
the point of making it more attractive if there aren't enough H-1B visas to go
around in the first place. Seems some what cynical to me.

------
supercanuck
I like Massachusetts trade off, if you are going to allow an influx of H1-B's
and immigrants, do away with the non-compete.

All it does is allow skim some cream of the top and control labor through
myriad of shell companies and outsourcers. The real value if the initial hook
up of the labor to the organization. There is no reason to behold a
"contractor" to a company.

------
vorg
Next year for certain source countries, some big corps will only sponsor male
ICT workers where both they _and_ their spouse have marketable skills. Upon
arriving in the US, if the spouse doesn't work for half-wages at the
sponsoring corp, the sponsored worker will have their job cancelled, resetting
their wait for a green card.

------
kirinkalia
Whether you realize it or not, the US competes with many countries for top
talent, including Australia, New Zealand and the UK (which have all done more
to encourage skilled migration than our country). If this passes, it's a solid
step to making us more competitive.

------
wittgenstein
It is ridiculous that they're focusing on spouses of H-1B holders instead of
fixing the innumerable flaws and pains embedded in the H-1B process altogether
(six year limit, long wait time for a green card, the restriction an H-1B
holder is subject to, etc.)

------
schintan
Would not the companies be wary of hiring people on H4 considering their
authorization to work depends on their spouses maintaining their H1 status ?
There is an inherent risk that the H-1B holding spouse might lose their job.

~~~
jdcryans
Maybe, but I'm not sure if it matters. Like the article says, spouses of L-1s
are already doing it, same for the spouses of Australian E-3 holders. From
wikipedia: "spouses of E-3 visa holders may work in the United States without
restrictions". So they can be baristas if they want to :)

------
yankoff
they say "for Indian programmers" like there are no other h1b programmers in
the US :)

~~~
goshx
I thought the same thing at first, but then I realized the reason is because
this was posted to the section "India Realtime" of the WSJ :)

------
ThomPete
Anyone knows if this will apply to O visas too?

~~~
FreakNeko
No, it does not.

------
judk
This, and a thousand analogous reasons, is why gay marriage matters.

------
bubbleRefuge
Does this mean that bodyshops like Infy,tcs,WP, get two for the price of one ?

Lets say ole Raj went to some CS diploma mill in Bangalore. Then got a job at
some Infy offshore hub where he learned PL/SQL and how to script in SAP land.
Next, fell in love with the sexy girl in a nearby cube. After sweating bullets
and pleading ( maybe a few cows were traded in the background), the families
approved of the love marriage. Next, the husband bags a H1 via Infy to work in
the IT dept at Cisco. Sexy hubby gets ez H1 and a job in IT at Marvel. Bingo!
They can afford a 2br in Santa Clara. In fact, now the parents can visit for
big chunks of time rather comfortably. Meanwhile, Infy has better margins and
the American worker has slipped further into the abyss .

