
A Navy veteran refused to accept a ‘no’ to his battery invention - goodmachine
https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/12/naval-veteran-aluminum-air-metalectrique/
======
hristov
So techcrunch still runs one sided articles about companies that are basically
glorified advertisements. They haven't changed after all these years.

They did not dwell on the biggest difference between aluminum air and lithium
batteries -- that the aluminum air ones are not actually rechargable. Whenever
you run out of batteries you have to send each used battery back to the
factory to be re-manufactured and get a new one.

If you want to really compare these to lithium batteries, then you should
compare the energy needed to re-manufacture a new aluminum air battery
compared to the energy needed to merely recharge a lithium battery. I bet that
the al-air battery will end up at least ten times more energy intensive.
(Manufacturing aluminum is a very energy intensive process). And of course you
also have to worry about shipping heavy batteries back and forth between the
factory and multiple recharge centers. Whereas with lithium ion you are only
"shipping" electrons over wires.

Relying on single use battery for ordinary transportation is just crazy
extravagance.

~~~
salty_biscuits
I keep thinking that maybe metal air batteries only really make sense for an
electric aeroplane. The energy density of lithium ion is too low and there are
a lot of things to do at the end of a trip, so maybe swapping out a battery
pack isn't a huge deal.

~~~
rini17
A possible issue: they get heavier as they discharge. Unless the aluminium
oxide is somehow expelled out, but this is not the case.

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mojomark
> Without having to charge the battery, a car could simply swap the battery
> out in second, completely removing ‘charge time’... Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel
> Cells would require a huge and expensive Hydrogen distribution
> infrastructure and a new Hydrogen generation system.

This is cool, but the above argument that battery a swap out system being much
significant of a hurdle that developing an H2 infrastructure doesn't make
sense. For a battery swap out, you need not only the infrastructure to deliver
fresh batteries to points of use/sale, you also need to infrastrucutre to
return the batteries to the recycling station, and the recycling station
infrastructure itself.

H2 fuel infrastructure simply requires H2 liberation from a water source and
delivery to fueling statuons. Fuel cells exhaust water. Now, the H2 fuel cells
themselves and their platinum-based membranes are another hurdle, but that's
not the argument the author made. This author (and others) need do a more
complete cost-benefit assessment.

~~~
mft_
Exactly. The text you quote is PR-messaging to cover up the major downside
that these aren't rechargeable - they have to be swapped out. So they're not
really a competitor for Lithium rechargeables; they're a competitor for
Duracell gold-tops.

(Interestingly, I recall that Tesla originally planned to offer battwry-swap
stations, and even demonstrated over. Not sure why they dropped the plan -
presume either logistics, or they developed their battery technology to allow
charging more quickly than they'd originally thought possible?)

~~~
Shivetya
two issues, super chargers were more than quick enough even when this
technology was introduced. the second was that they had such little uptake it
wasn't worth trying at more than the first site.

the unwritten concern was, who owns which pack? is the new pack I swap going
to swap back to me or equivalent?

~~~
shkkmo
> is the new pack I swap going to swap back to me or equivalent?

the packs are not rechargable, you would be buying a new battery and getting
paid to recycle your old battery.

~~~
Thorrez
Shivetya was talking about Telsa battery packs, which are rechargeable.

------
alan-crowe
Way back in 1997 the German Post Office did a big trial with Zinc-air
batteries in delivery vans
[https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15420863-500-germany-...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15420863-500-germany-
greens-its-postal-vans/)

Zinc-air only gets you around 180 Wh/Kg, while Aluminium-air manages around
1300 Wh/Kg.

If the article is correct that Trevor Jackson has solved practical problems
with the electrolyte, then it is time to dig out the results from the old
German Post Office trial. Why did it go nowhere? If the main problem was
simply that Zinc-air batteries were too heavy, then a practical Aluminium-air
battery is a big step forward. If on the other hand the problems were to do
with swapping and re-smelting, then Aluminium-air might be solving the wrong
problem.

~~~
WhoBeI
Thanks for that link. It mentions a postal van lasting a week on one battery
stack and testing with full loads. Cynical me says politics and oil industry
but manufacturing and logistics surrounding it must have been challenging as
well.

[edit] [0] Mentions the Deutsche Post thing as a pilot project with a
"regeneration" plant for recycling. So might just have been funding drying up
when the project ended.

[0]:
[https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/661884](https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/661884)

------
audunw
Having a good aluminum-air battery would be fantastic, even if it was non-
rechargeable. It makes no sense to replace the existing battery pack in BEVs,
but they could be used for range extension when going on road trips.

I'd be really curious to know how many kWh you could pack in a hand-swappable
unit like Gogoros batteries. Make two slots in the bottom of the trunk (in a
way that it can be used for storage when you don't have batteries in there).
When you go on a long trip, just go to a station, pick up two batteries, and
drop them off at your destination.

The problem is, considering that this is the main use case, it's not a
technology with a huge market potential like lithium-ion. It's nice-to-have,
but not essential.

Could also make sense for electric air planes or boats.

"The technology development has peaked and unlike aluminum, lithium is not
recyclable"

This is just false. Solid state lithium-ion batteries are arguably more mature
than aluminum-air, which is a huge step forward. Lithium is also recyclable.
That process is not as mature as the process for making aluminum, but I'm
guessing there's a bit more to scaling up the recycling of these batteries
than just handing over the spent cell to an aluminum smelter.

------
noir_lord
Assuming the technology is as described and I don’t know enough to comment on
that, it doesn’t surprise me, the British government is terrible at exploiting
technology that is come up with inside the UK.

Another example is the SABRE folks, honestly innovation in this country is
“men in sheds” relies refusing to take no for an answer.

------
gcoda
If it is not possible to manufacture those cells on site, at home or at
charging/swapping station he should probably give up. But entropy... more
energy you pack, more it wants to get out.

if you can pack 10x more energy in the same size as lithium cells and they
wont explode on damage, maybe there will be some benefit to making whole
delivery network for aluminum cells

------
shkkmo
Is there a reason to not use a combination of battery types in an EV? Have a
smaller rechargeable lithium battery for daily commutes and regenerative
breakes. Have a space/socket for a larger single-use aluminum battery for when
you need the extra range.

Assuming these things are stable enough, it really would not be hard for gas
stations to keep a couple of these on a shelf. The hardest part would be
scheduling the pickups for recycling.

~~~
moron4hire
Gas stations already have several vendors--for fuel and snack foods--coming in
and out. With the Al/air batteries being just a swap, why would it be any
different than the bread man dropping off fresh product and picking up stale?

------
8bitsrule
The battery's "only waste product is aluminum hydroxide..."

Producing Al(OH)3 is an intermediate step in the Bayer process (used
worldwide) to convert bauxite to Al2O3 - a process which requires a lot of
energy and produces a lot of (dangerous) waste.

So there may be potential there for this battery's 'waste' to actually save
-more- energy.

~~~
Lanrei
No, the step that converts the aluminium hydroxide into aluminium metal is an
extremely energy intensive step. You won't be saving energy unless you use
solar thermal to heat the kiln. And you'd have to do this if you wanted to use
the batteries again as the batteries are single use.

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emilfihlman
There's got to be a catch. If the technology is so much better, why is it so
shunned? I have great trouble believing that Big Lithium would really be
preventing it's use given that aluminium is abundant everywhere.

~~~
lazyjones
The catch is that this battery isn't rechargeable, it has to be swapped out
and recycled.

~~~
emilfihlman
Ah, this explains it 100%.

------
emanuensis
Much simpler would be join the scooter scheme of ~swappable rechargeable
batteries ... a ready made standard that could then work for any vehicle up to
a car

By forcing ownership of batteries outside of consumers effective recycling
could be much more effective too. Right now there is a huge cost, almost a
planned obsolescence, when a EV's battery degrades ... as is inevitable with
current tech.

~swappable

[https://electrek.co/2019/06/10/yamaha-ec-05-electric-
scooter...](https://electrek.co/2019/06/10/yamaha-ec-05-electric-scooter-
gogoro-batteries)

------
ur-whale
Not sure I understand why this guy keeps turning to governments for funding
instead of the private sector.

Is there some sort of regulatory hurdle he's trying to overcome?

~~~
CyberFonic
I think the above comments are the clue that the private sector isn't
interested.

Too many downsides in being a primary battery. BTW hearing aid batteries are
zinc air. So the metal-air technology has certain uses, but as for EVs the
highly energy intensive process of re-generating the batteries is probably
what causes potential investors to pass.

------
scythe
Sounds useful as an emergency power backup — where you could simply store lots
of Al rods and worry about returning the oxide byproduct only after power has
been restored. This system has a dramatically higher energy density per cost
and volume than any secondary batteries, which makes up for any loss of energy
in refining Al

------
Ice_cream_suit
Corrosion and self discharge are the big problems for metal - air batteries.

They typically self discharge in less than a month once they are activated.

[https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/120466](https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/120466)

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3131s
It's unbelievable how bad the editing in this article is. I barely skimmed
this and came across four typos.

------
fuddle
I'm surprised he found it so hard to get funding. They definitely need to get
their story out to more people.

------
blarg1
Being non rechargeable I wonder if these batteries could be used for things
like watch/remote control/torch/etc batteries since the typical ones you buy
are also non rechargeable and I imagine not very environmentally friendly.

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hn23
It really reads like an inventor story in Europe. The German who invented
Lithium Ion batteries also run across the country and nobody was interested
until Sony came along and needed something for their walkman...so the story
goes...

------
ajwin
Being that it’s not rechargeable and cost £60/kWh.. does that make a 60kWh
recharge $3600? If so it is a very expensive ‘tank of gas’ equivalent?

~~~
ajwin
Although it’s confusing as they say it’s £0.08/mile so the bit the exchange
must be cheap but something else in there is expensive?

------
foota
Sounds like the main benefit vs other batteries is a high weight energy
density, would it be enough to enable new applications for batteries?

------
ggm
Batteryswap makes sense to me. More sense than attempting to retrofit charge
onto streets

~~~
jillesvangurp
Swapping out a few hundred kilos of battery is going to require some tools and
equipment. That doesn't sound like something you'd do on the side of a road.
Building facilities for that would be quite a bit of effort. Probably
installing a charging point is a lot less complicated and costly.

Also the logistics of moving tons of batteries around are going to be a bit
challenging. The infrastructure for that would also need to be built and
unlike charging points there's none of it anywhere. Finally, having a lot of
middlemen messing around with batteries adds a lot of cost as well.

Anyway, now that in car batteries are good enough now and on track to get way
better still, this seems completely redundant. There are plenty of charging
points and EV owners typically install one in their homes as well. None of the
infrastructure for swapping batteries exist, no standards for such a thing
exists, and fixing that seems to not really solve a problem anyone actually
has.

~~~
ggm
The only logistics are for initial supply and replacement. The battery swap
points would be what we call gas stations. The batteries would clearly be
designed to slide in and out in some motorised manner with a lift, And have
positive latch connects.

Contrast the costs of battery swap with retrofitting power reticulation to
large developments, upscaling the distribution network, fitting individual
charge points, and swap has good economics.

I agree it's unlikely. I just think it makes more sense.

~~~
jillesvangurp
Sounds like a lot of infrastructure would be needed to swap, handle, transport
and store the batteries. Also presumably at some point you'd need to charge
the batteries, which means you need .... charging points. So the economics are
those of charging points plus a lot of logistics and man power. That sounds
like bad economics to me.

~~~
ggm
Repurposed gas stations have most of what you need. Delivery of power to an
array of chargers cheaper than reticulated suburbs.

------
emptysands
Could this process work at grid scale as a power storage for renewable energy?

~~~
ljf
These batteries are not rechargeable - though you could create them with the
'spare' energy when wind power isn't needed for eg. Issue is the time that
should plants could remain unused if the plant is not profitable at normal
energy costs.

------
ncmncm
There is still a lot more bribe money in blocking new tech than in advancing
it.

Everything that effectively brings the end of the Fossil Economy closer hits
roadblocks in government. Anything ineffective has it easier, so dominates
funding.

