
Great White Sharks Are Terrified of Orcas - EndXA
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/great-white-sharks-are-completely-terrified-orcas-180972009/
======
kendallpark
> There's evidence to suggest that orcas use tonic immobility to prey on
> sharks.

> In 1997, an Orca in the Farallon Islands was seen holding a White Shark
> upside down for 15 minutes. Whether intentional or not, the Orca likely
> caused the shark to enter tonic immobility. Defenceless, the shark,
> suffocated. This also happened again in 2000.

> In New Zealand, Orcas also seem to use tonic immobility to hunt stingrays.
> Before attacking the orcas will turn themselves upside down. Then, holding
> the stingray in their mouth, they'll quickly right themselves. Flipping
> their prey upside down.

[https://www.sharktrust.org/tonic-
immobility](https://www.sharktrust.org/tonic-immobility)

~~~
avip
I was taught to hold birds like that, TIL it has a name and it's a thing.

IANAO, but it works on herons and pelicans.

~~~
mizzao
IANAO = I am not an ornithologist?

~~~
scbrg
Please let it be _I am not an orca!_

~~~
blotter_paper
Personally, I think it would cooler if avip _is_ an orca posting on HN.

~~~
ummwhat
I hope not. He/she might be trying to lure you in with an interesting comment
but next thing you know you're upside down, immobile, and suffocating.

------
EndXA
The study that this article is based on can be found here:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-39356-2](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-39356-2)

Abstract:

> Predatory behavior and top-down effects in marine ecosystems are well-
> described, however, intraguild interactions among co-occurring marine top
> predators remain less understood, but can have far reaching ecological
> implications. Killer whales and white sharks are prominent upper trophic
> level predators with highly-overlapping niches, yet their ecological
> interactions and subsequent effects have remained obscure. Using long-term
> electronic tagging and survey data we reveal rare and cryptic interactions
> between these predators at a shared foraging site, Southeast Farallon Island
> (SEFI). In multiple instances, brief visits from killer whales displaced
> white sharks from SEFI, disrupting shark feeding behavior for extended
> periods at this aggregation site. As a result, annual predations of
> pinnipeds by white sharks at SEFI were negatively correlated with close
> encounters with killer whales. Tagged white sharks relocated to other
> aggregation sites, creating detectable increases in white shark density at
> Ano Nuevo Island. This work highlights the importance of risk effects and
> intraguild relationships among top ocean predators and the value of long-
> term data sets revealing these consequential, albeit infrequent, ecological
> interactions.

~~~
robert_tweed
I only skimmed it, but it doesn't seem that they looked directly at whether
the sharks actually fear Orcas per se. It is already known that white sharks
flee whenever one of their own is killed by anything, which they can smell
from some distance away. They remember to avoid that area for some time
afterwards.

"Great White Sharks are terrified of Orcas" suggests a higher level of
intelligence than "Great White Sharks evolved to fear anything that can kill a
Great White Shark".

It seems that the study is less concerned with that mechanism and more with
the fact that this kind of displacement leads to White Sharks occupying sub-
optimal hunting grounds while Orcas get to go wherever they want.

~~~
s1k3b8
> It is already known that white sharks flee whenever one of their own is
> killed by anything

But white sharks fight each other, kill each other and even eat each other on
occasion. We know that white sharks fetuses cannibalize each other in the
womb. How could they do that if white shark blood scares them off? Also, is
there really a difference in smell between white sharks and other sharks,
seals, etc?

This is such an easy thing to test. Has anyone taken white shark blood and
tested it on white sharks ( captive or wild )? Also, does this only work on
white sharks? Do tiger sharks, nurse sharks and other sharks fear blood of
their own species?

Finally, white sharks are scavengers as well as hunters ( like most predators
). As far as I know, every scavenger will cannibalize when given the chance.
Are white sharks the exception?

Also, most animals flee when they see, smell or hear a predator. So I think
it's most likely that white sharks flee when they sense a potential predator.

If truly shark blood scares off sharks, then coast guards should dump some
shark blood near beaches where sharks frequent.

~~~
olivermarks
Hollywood/Spielberg promoted the fantasy that sharks are predatory to humans,
where we are more often mistaken for seals and other natural shark prey when
out in the water. An acquaintance recently told me he was surfing at Salmon
Creek a couple of weeks ago and a great white hit him on the back of his head
with a powerful flick of his tail while he was laying prone on his longboard,
a wave came along almost immediately after this and took him shore wards
(still prone). This was almost certainly a 'seal slap' stun move, sharks don't
do anything by accident. My friend then saw another surfer on his way in
paddling out who saw the shark silhouette in the wave and headed back to the
beach. It's scary but there are very few actual shark bites and kills of
humans despite the terror film sell, but it is still a mystery how we can
discourage them from the coastal beach waves where they have every right to
be. Despite dolphin's adorable perception by humans you can see them torturing
and raping seals in the San Francisco bay, it's a jungle out there...

~~~
kls
Oceanic white tips and Tiger Sharks are man eaters, they have been know to
stalk, hunt and consume humans. They will return to devour a human. The meme
that Sharks do not eat humans is not entirely true, but the reality is they
prefer other meals. Well at least the tiger shark does. Oceanic white tips are
the piranhas of the open ocean, they eat everything they come across. It is a
good thing they only live in open ocean as if they where a shallow water shark
there would be far more shark attacks.

I spearfish, and have spent a lot of time in the water with sharks. There
nature is very much like that of dogs. If you show fear, try to flee and
basically make yourself look like prey they will get attracted. If you stand
your ground, give them a nudge to the face when they get to close. They see
you as a competing apex predator that can hurt them, sharks are adverse to
fighting for their meal. It is why injured fish is such and attraction to
them. I have been in the water with them, just cruising around not paying any
attention to anything, someone shoots a fish and all hell breaks loose if you
don;t get the fish up fast enough. Once you are in possession of the fish they
act as if another shark got it and go back to just cruising around. If they
get to your fish before you get it up, they will clean it off the spear in
seconds flat.

~~~
lowdose
This would be an awesome youtube video.

~~~
kls
Ask and you shall receive:

[https://youtu.be/opSuHFpeZKA](https://youtu.be/opSuHFpeZKA)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP8SVeSZKVg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP8SVeSZKVg)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMT60zd1dkE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMT60zd1dkE)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF9J9dc8UYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF9J9dc8UYw)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt8jxBig3wc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt8jxBig3wc)

This one is really intense:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzTh9l3mrQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzTh9l3mrQ)

------
kuprel
Orcas have the advantage of a mammalian brain. It's pretty crazy to think that
an animal similar to a pig returned to the ocean and now dominates the
environment

~~~
cushychicken
The ancestral precursor to modern orcas is a _pig?_ _Really?_ Fascinating.
What creature does the fossil record point to as the orca ancestor?

(Legitimately curious. Rereading before posting makes me realize that I sound
like an anti-evolution troll XD )

~~~
detaro
Not directly a pig, but a land-living mammal where a different evolutionary
branch developed into pigs (and cows, and a bunch more)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Even-
toed_ungulate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Even-toed_ungulate)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans)

~~~
fmela
See also
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakicetus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakicetus)

------
Tistel
Orcas working in teams to knock seals off an iceberg with waves:
[https://youtu.be/g1VEwsI4SlY](https://youtu.be/g1VEwsI4SlY)

So what can we conclude? Super smart, organized and no love for other mammals.
I am amazed they only seem to go after humans in the sea world type scenario
(film: Blackfish, shows the madness it induces in such animals). I don’t know
of any attacks on surfers. Which seems odd. They would be so scary to swim
near.

~~~
idoubtit
Meta: I can't bear watching this video, I find it infuriating. It's a mix of
many shots, with no temporal continuity. I don't think there is a continuous
shot of more than 3 seconds. The music is annoying (wouldn't natural noise be
much more impressive) and over the top. The attack scene is not even clear
because of all this. And most of the time is spent watching someone boasting
that her "scientific" film is marvelous.

I don't have TV at home, and I rarely watch youtube and modern videos, so I
suppose I'm just not used to way TV is nowadays. Even the BBC. I hope it
doesn't help inducing ADHD.

~~~
capableweb
The reason why it's cut like that it's because it's a Behind The Scenes from
the shooting of BBC's Earth. Normally you'd watch it after watching a specific
episode (or even later) and you're not interested in particular content of the
shot, but about the making of the shot. Hence the interview, rapid cuts and so
on. If you see the full BBC Earth, the scene is a lot better and makes more
sense.

~~~
IAmEveryone
Thanks for providing the actual explanation. There are (currently) four other
comments with useless everything-used-to-be-better-cynicism, which make me
pine for the web of yore, when more than 1 in 4 comments brought expertise and
not faux-nostalgia.

------
jger15
Tangent but this made me wonder if there are any pack-hunting birds.
Apparently so:

[https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28218-zoologger-
the-o...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28218-zoologger-the-only-
raptor-known-to-hunt-in-cooperative-packs/)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Yes, Harris hawks.

I'm not sure how deep the analogy goes but a falconer told me that they "hunt
like wolves".

------
tyingq
Found an interesting article that suggests surfboards and wetsuits with the
black and white orca belly pattern might deter sharks.
[https://www.nature.com/news/south-african-scientists-
trial-h...](https://www.nature.com/news/south-african-scientists-trial-humane-
shark-deterrents-1.18346)

~~~
tasuki
I bet they attract orcas though!

~~~
stjohnswarts
I find them attractive as well.

------
daedalus_j
I recently listened to the audiobook "Beyond Words" by Carl Safina, I believe
on the recommendation of an HN comment.

If you're interested in the intelligence, empathy, and minds of animals, I can
heartily recommend this book. The last third or so of the book covered Orcas
(and some whales and dolphins) and it was pretty amazing. I particularly liked
that he covered some of the stories that are not quite scientific in nature,
while calling them out as such. The book will definitely leave you with the
lingering feeling that minds and awareness are not quite as simple and clear
cut as we might believe them to be.

------
shoo
Here's a short story about orcas, keeping orcas in captivity, and what might
happen if we could figure out how to communicate...

Peter Watts & Laurie Channer "Bulk Food":
[http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts/WattsChanner_Bulk_Food.pd...](http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts/WattsChanner_Bulk_Food.pdf)

------
protomyth
Isn't one of the theories of why the Megalodon went extinct was Orcas (or a
relative) pack hunted the young into extinction?

~~~
ajross
Consensus is that they were likely outcompeted by whales for sure, though
mostly by relatives of modern sperm whales. I hadn't heard anything about
predation by dolphins/orcas.

------
cossatot
> Kent, a Canadian Game & Fisheries warden, tells the story of one hapless
> grizzly attempting to swim a channel. The distance was, perhaps, less than a
> mile. Mr. Bear was beavering away at the swim. Up the channel, the dorsal
> fins of a small pod of orcas sliced the water--two bulls, some females, and
> get. The whales spotted the bear first. The moms and pups held back, while
> the bulls circled in. The bear weighed his options. First he looked to the
> farshore and then he looked to the backshore. He rubbernecked back and
> forth. Realizing both were too far, he tried to paddle straight up like a
> missile coming out of a nuclear sub. The whales did not circle (after all,
> they're not sharks) and did not sprint. They simply swam for the grizzly. In
> seconds, Mr. Bear turned into a red oil slick.

Robert H. Miller, _Kayaking the Inside Passage_.

------
proee
I wonder if synthetic Orca sounds, played in the water, could be used to keep
sharks out of a specific area?

~~~
nradov
Acoustic shark repellents based on orca sounds are at least somewhat effective
but aren't completely reliable.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502882/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502882/)

------
point78
Looks like the length of an orca and great white are exactly the same. I would
have thought the orca to be much larger. Couldn't the great white turn the
tables here?

~~~
notacoward
Not really. Orcas are much chunkier than great whites. Even the rare great
white that reaches the length of an average orca would be 1/3 the weight. I've
seen video of an encounter between individual members of the two species, and
it wasn't even a fight. The orca just grabbed the great white and _flung_ it
like a chew toy. The you add in the fact that orcas usually (but not always
BTW) form and hunt in groups, and it's understandable why a great white would
run away.

There's no doubt that a great white is an impressive beast, but there are even
more fearsome animals out there. Orcas for one. Sperm whales for another.
Something bigger than giant squid that gets into fights with sperm whales and
leaves horrific marks on their bodies. To the real heavyweight champions of
the sea, a great white would be a snack.

~~~
OldFatCactus
Are you suggesting the marks on sperm whales are made by an unknown creature?
I thought they were understood to be made by Giant Squid

~~~
notacoward
Most of the marks are pretty clearly giant squid, but last I heard scientists
were still unsure about others. Probably something very similar. It's not too
surprising, really. What we know about giant squid is mostly from a very few
dead ones that have washed up. The vast majority (assuming we can even judge
prevalence from things like scars on sperm whales) are likely to settle on the
bottom. There are a great many creatures both big and small that live and die
down there with none ever reaching the surface intact enough to be recognized
as a species we haven't seen before. Every single time they send a probe down
there, they find new ones. Some day maybe they'll find one of the big ones
that could explain those extra sperm-whale scars.

~~~
kvartz
We actually have some recent footage of the giant squid and new ideas for deep
sea exploration

[https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/19biolum/logs/ju...](https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/19biolum/logs/jun20/jun20.html)

------
mark_l_watson
I agree with the sharks.

I have been SCUBA and free diving many times and seen sharks, and it is a
thrill, but no fear.

As I have written on HN before, once when I was 10 miles offshore in a small
Columbia 22 sailboat and Orca (killer whale) jumped four times high out of the
water landing right next to my boat, violently rocking it. Yes, I felt fear.

------
nickik
> that is, if there isn’t a remnant population of megalodon hidden somewhere
> in the deep

I hate this kind of statement so much. Megalodon would be hunting in warm
shallow water areas close to the coast. And they are defiantly not 'hidden
somewhere in the deep'.

If Megalodon existed, whales could not have grown as large as they did.

~~~
avar
They were already living in offshore areas:

> "adult megalodon were not abundant in shallow water environments, and mostly
> inhabited offshore areas.[1]"

They're also thought to have died out 3.6 million years ago. There's no
suggestion that a descendant is still alive, but that's plenty of time for
such a lineage to evolve to specialize in deepwater environments.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalodon#Paleobiology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalodon#Paleobiology)

------
russellbeattie
I honestly thought the author was making a Hannibal Lector joke at first,
which I thought was a bit morbid, until the next paragraph, where he expanded
on the Orca's taste for shark livers. Turns out it's nature that's the morbid
one. Wow. No wonder sharks scatter!

------
lmilcin
Isn't it a standard pattern of when somebody who is bullying others constantly
is very bad at dealing with a bigger bully because they don't have much
experience with somebody standing up to them successfully?

------
CalChris
A good book on great whites and the Farallon Islands is _The Devil 's Teeth._
It covers the islands, the birds, seals and great whites but there's very
little in it on orcas if I remember correctly.

------
pgt
This has implications for wetsuit and surfboard design in repelling sharks.

------
m3kw9
Why isn’t there a movie about killer Orcas?

------
ksec
I looked up Killer whale on wiki.

 _Killer whales are apex predators, as no animal preys on them._

So what exactly is new in this paper?

~~~
detaro
It's worth not concentrating too much on the first paragraph of the article,
which merely talks about a common cultural cliché and reading the rest, which
answers your question.

Also note that multiple species can be "apex predators" in an ecosystem.

~~~
ksec
The rest of the article suggest White Shakes will leave the area once Killer
Whales appears.

Isn't that the normal scenario of an apex predators appearance? Which is why I
am asking, or is this a false assumption?

------
MR4D
Mammals > fish.

Not surprising.

