
Ask HN: How much does it cost to outsource iPhone app development? - sendos
There is an app that I would like to code up, but if the cost is not too prohibitive, I'd like to outsource it.<p>I searched the web for info on good iPhone dev shops and prices, but couldn't get good answers, so I thought I'd ask HN.<p>Of course, it all depends on the app. How complex, etc. Assume a moderate app, with, say, up to five different views, storing of some user data, and using the location framework.<p>Nothing too complicated. I think it might take me a month or more to code, but it should take a more experienced iPhone coder maybe two weeks.<p>Am I looking at $5,000,  $10,000,  $20,000,   more?<p>Some info:<p>1) I don't want bottom-of-the-line developers. I don't mind paying extra for good developers<p>2) I don't mind paying up to several thousand dollars. My take is that if I can't make that money back from the app, I would prefer to have wasted money than 1 or 2 months of my life.<p>Besides the price, do you guys know of good iPhone dev shops? I take it that the standard procedure is to look on elance.com, odesk.com, etc, but I've never used them and I'm not sure how to use them to find a good developer.<p>I'm in the SF Bay Area, so a good local dev shop would be great, even though I wouldn't mind a dev shop from elsewhere.
======
yish
The going rate for a great developer/designer with lots of mobile experience
here in SF is in the ~150 an hour range. I've seen this price go up
significantly in the last couple months, primarily due to high demand at the
moment. You can probably get a little cheaper outside the area and definitely
less offshore, but even then a good offshore house will run you $60 and they
often don't like doing fixed bids at those prices.

My experience is that app development for a medium to high complexity app with
location features and accessing a 3rd party API for data would typically take
4-6 weeks including QA but really depends on the complexity.

I've done about 30+ mobile apps now so ping me if you need any advice

~~~
davidcann
Everyone reading this, please don't think the ~150 an hour range is normal for
an individual developer. This is generally the rate for a full service
design/development agency where you get an account manager, secretaries, etc.

I do iPhone development and haven't met anyone getting even close to $150/hr
individually. If someone made that, they'd be be making $6,000/week and
$300,000/year.

yish, can you confirm that this is an agency rate, not an individual
developer/designer rate? or is this the rate you're making personally?

~~~
flyosity
I know UI designers (who work on iPhone & iPad apps) that make $120-150 per
hour for their work and they work for themselves, no agency. Of course your
_goal_ is to have 40 hours a week of billable work but it never really works
out like that :)

~~~
kadavy
40 hours a week of billable work is damn near impossible. Even if I could find
that much work, I wouldn't be able to handle it on a regular basis.

------
NiftyIon
Hey. We have a team of wanna-be iPhone app developers made up of ~6 people.
We're high schoolers with a few years programming/graphics design experience.

We're just starting up. If you're interested in maybe outsourcing something to
us, shoot me an email. Since I understand that we're not experienced iPhone
developers and maybe not even experienced developers in general (I'd like to
think we're pretty decent, but maybe that's teenage arrogance speaking), it
would be incredibly cheap.

But we're dedicated, have spare time, want to learn, and we would be willing
to accommodate changing schedules, weird requests, whatever, if it means we
get a chance.

My email is <my username> at Gmail.com.

~~~
ErrantX
> it would be incredibly cheap.

Don't undersell yourself! I learnt early on that charging the _right_ price
does wonders for bringing in better customers and better work.

(plus if your earning good then you have more impetus to get finished on time)

------
dotBen
Too many variables to be able to suggest a total rate (depends on how much
work there is, in addition to the other factors listed).

You are probably looking at the equivalent of $100-200/hr for good
development, with the higher end for people located in SF.

If you are going to out-source development, and you have a design/product
background, I would build out a product spec and even a draft list of stories
into Pivotal Tracker. It will help you define with your contractor what you
want but also help to estimate total job time -- and that will help you arrive
at a budget, based on the above hourly rate.

[If you don't have a design/product background (or are not a developer
yourself) then the success of outsourced is probably going to be mixed]

I also tend to shy away from fixed bid because it doesn't work with an agile
approach. You may not know completely what you want and as you get building
and can get a better picture, being able to add extra components into the mix
will cause friction with a fixed bid contract.

Better to agree a budget so that everyone is clear what the limits and goal
posts are.

~~~
gte910h
>I also tend to shy away from fixed bid because it doesn't work with an agile
approach. You may not know completely what you want and as you get building
and can get a better picture, being able to add extra components into the mix
will cause friction with a fixed bid contract.

Fixed bid works just fine with an agile approach. You just start with a very
small core project, then iterate upwards with follow on projects.

This is _especially_ important for the Apple App Store because there is no
other way to know if your app will be approved.

Fixed bid is sometimes more expensive due to the "risk eating" the developers
are taking off your hands, but agility isn't usually the issue with developers
who are otherwise good.

We counsel clients to start with a small fixed bid project then use hourly or
follow on projects to change the program to a particular place they want to
go.

~~~
faramarz
_This is especially important for the Apple App Store because there is no
other way to know if your app will be approved._

This is HUGE! Do you believe a company can flourish just as an App store app.
or is that just too risky. Would love to hear your personal opinion.

I'm working on an enterprise solution, and it's reliance is completely on
Apple's code-of-conduct.

~~~
hboon
If it's an enterprise solution, it doesn't have necessary have to go through
App store, no?

~~~
gte910h
If you have an _internal app that's only used by people who work for you_ ,
you can use the enterprise deployment kit to deploy internally.

This is designed for people who say, buy 100 ipads to replace clip boards in
their hospital.

You _cannot_ however, do distribution through _any_ mechanism other than the
app store (I had one perspective client who wanted to buy $30k of iPodTouches
and give them out to clients, Apple flipped a shit when I asked for a discount
on them and said you're wholly unallowed to do anything of the kind. Each
person must download _all_ their apps through their account on the app store.
Anything else is forbidden.

~~~
hboon
So you are saying that if someone sells an app (which might be sold with
minimal modifications to other hospitals) for the 100 ipads to a hospital as
an enterprise solution (let's assume we can get the hospital to buy the iPad
directly), the app still has to be put up on the App store? Doesn't that
confuse the hell out for users that don't work in the hospital?

I develop iPhone apps selling on the app store, but have never explored the
enterprise distribution side of it. With the iPad, it's becoming interesting.

------
gte910h
This is what I do for a living (in Atlanta though).

Depends a _lot_ on the complexity.

For non-game apps: Some smaller, simple apps are 2-3k, more complex stuff runs
in the 10-15k range. Past that you're doing something A> Really Hard, B> New,
C> On the edge of what Apple allows or D> Heavily involved with a complicated
server component.

I'd happily send you a fixed fee quote for your app if you'd like (see profile
for an email address to contact me).

One thing to see: See if they'll set you up on your mac getting you compiling
and signing for submission to the store. Lots of overseas shops don't get you
through that last part, and it is pretty tricky to do right.

~~~
wallflower
+1 for the walking the client through the developer approval process. It's
win-win, as the client gets the app released under their own moniker, and you
get to preserve your anonymity.

~~~
gte910h
HA!

I actually do submission for some people as well and the whole rigmarole. All
depends on what the client is interested in paying for.

I've helped several people who hired out of country developers then got left
with a pile of source code and no way to get it on the store.

One of them, amusingly, wouldn't let me VNC in to their computer, so I had to
do it all by phone (that was fun). Most of the rest of them I use
copilot/webex or something to help train them on the process and get their
computer setup for distribution.

------
koevet
A couple of months ago I had an idea for an iPhone app that requires a client
and server component. I decided to focus on the backend development and
outsource the front-end. I have posted my tender on
<http://www.getappsdone.com/> and in a very short amount of time I have
received several offers from shops and individuals from all over the planet,
mainly US, UK and India. I have replied to every contact asking for a
portfolio and I ended up with a couple of candidates. I also received all sort
of prices, from suspiciously low (40US/hour)to rip-off high (> 200/h). I have
based my choice on the quality of the portfolio, on the similarity of apps
already developed by the shop to mine and, of course, on the overall price.

~~~
davidedicillo
I'm glad to see YC people using it. We are really trying to focus on a fair
marketplace more than a race-to-the-bottom one (like elance and others).

------
edster
I'll be happy to talk to you about your app. I've been developing freelance
iphone apps since day 1 of the beta. I've had apps featured at the All Things
D conference, NY Times, all of the gadget websites and one of my apps was
chosen as one of the top 20 apps of 2009 by a prominent magazine.

I live an Ann Arbor MI, but I've done several projects from companies in CA
including a prominent app for a San Jose based company.

Please contact me via email and I'll turn all of this theoretical stuff into
real names and places.

<edit>My rate is $75 per hour, which is why I think many CA firms don't mind
working with a remote resource<end edit>

~~~
Maven911
I have a questions on the dynamics if you don't mind me asking...

-is this your full time job and your sole source of income ? -are you able to find a normal amount of work just like a 9-5 job (i.e. 40 hours a week for 50 weeks -> 2000 billable hours a year)

~~~
edster
It is currently my full time job and sole source of income. When I first
started, for about the first 4 months or so, I had a full time job and worked
iPhone projects on the side. Since then I have been dedicated full time, once
I realized I could do it.

Of course there are ups and downs, so sometimes I'm working a couple of
projects at once and working 60-70 hours, and sometimes I'm fighting to stay
busy, but in general staying busy has not been the problem.

Like this post though, given the amount of west coast work, I find myself
working late most of the time. But that adjustment was not a big deal and many
customers like that I have been working on stuff for them while they were
still having breakfast.

------
rickharrison
I started up a small development shop about a year ago with a couple other
people from Hacker News, and we have done a lot of iPhone development. I would
be glad to talk with you about your project. We deliver quality work, and
charge much less than some of the more well known shops.

We just launched two iPad apps this past weekend, and they are in the top 100
in both overall categories (free and paid). And they are a #2 and #3 app in
their respective subcategory. Send me an email (its in my comment).

------
adriand
We're a development shop that focuses on web development, not far from
Toronto. We're dipping our toes into iPhone and iPad development - we have
someone who is trained, but no app in the App Store yet. We're working on a
new app right now that we intend to be free, just to build credibility. But
I'd be happy to quote on your project. I'd cut you a deal given that it'd be
great exposure and experience for us.

I realize that stating up front that we have limited experience in the area
probably doesn't inspire confidence. However, we're a high quality shop with
excellent design skills. We produce quality software, and wouldn't let you
down.

Contact info in my bio if you're interested.

------
tzm
I'm in Raleigh, NC. I develop iPhone / iPad and Android apps for a small dev
firm. We price our apps on a fixed rate basis, typically starting at $3k, for
full service work (graphic design to app store distribution); 2-3 week lead
time.

Although we could bill $100 - $150/hr, we find clients respond better to fixed
rate pricing, which seems to be a more manageable on both ends.

We focus heavily on providing excellent design and rich UI/UX. We often work
with agencies behind the scenes or with enterprise customers, brands,
publishers and entrepreneurs with an "idea". Pretty much all types of
customers.

We also build the web service infrastructure, which may include social, geo
and eCommerce capabilities and/or integration.

Btw, we've had iPhone apps approved in as little as 2 days.

Your app seems like some of the apps that we've developed for $2-3k, assuming
you have a workflow / spec draft and initial design consideration.

------
grinich
I do freelance iPhone/iPad dev work. I'm in Boston. grinich@mit.edu

For reference, I built this: <http://michaelgrinich.com/hackernews/> The rest
of my portfolio isn't yet online. Send me an email and I can show you more.

~~~
duck
I had looked at your hackernews app a while back and it seemed pretty nice and
well built... but I have to question charging for an app that delivers the
content of a free 3rd party site like HN.

~~~
briancooley
Why? The iPhone has mobile Safari, and the HN clientele are certainly smart
enough to know how to use it.

Clearly the app has to deliver some value outside of the content. Think
bottled water.

~~~
grinich
I like the bottled water analogy. :-) Thanks for that.

The app isn't a huge moneymaker, and was never meant to be. I built it out of
frustration and only later decided to throw it up on the store. Building
against an api-less site was a fun challenge and I learned a ton. It also uses
the Three20 framework, which was an interesting experience. (absolutely no
documentation at the time)

Think of it as buying me a cup of coffee to help fund a side-project. Next
update should have an iPad version, too.

------
tarouter
I remember having read this story about a girl who outsourced her app to
canada for 800$ and earned upwards of 8000$ selling it. The app was about a
popular game played by girls. I know I'm being too vague but I specifically
remember this - 1) Canadian developer 2) Was developed for 800$ 3) It was a
popular game app for girls I hope that provide some useful data points to
consider. It was published in one of hacker/entrepreneurship related
websites/blogs which probably many of you frequent and might have seen the
story. Anyone got a link?

~~~
smokey_the_bear
The game was M.A.S.H (Mansion, Apartment, Street, House) where you do
something randomish to predict the housing you'll live in as an adult.

------
jason_slack
Whatever you do, dont use Craigslist. You get what you pay for!

And incidentally, are other just dumbfounded by those that advertise "Develop
my iPhone app, no compensation" ads? How can they realistically think someone
might do that?

I can understand why they advertise, in hope, but I would rather be working on
my own company and my own apps for FREE.

------
BSousa
I develop iPhone/iPad apps in-house for the enterprise market, but when I take
side projects, I usually take around 70-80 dollars an hour (depending on the
whole scope of the project).

But it is hard to quote a fixed price without knowing much about the
application. An application with two custom views with a lot of logic can
easilly take 10x as much time as a CoreData 10 view application that is just
drilling data.

Send me an email at brunomtsousa@gmail.com if you need any advice/help.

------
glen
I'm using rent-a-coder to develop an iPhone app for an automatic thought
record -- a tool that clinicians use to help people challenge irrational
thoughts with evidence and rational thoughts. I put the bid out at $300 just
to see what happened. I had 3 bids and ended up choosing one w/60+ reviews and
a 9.7 (out of 10 rate) for $250. Feel free to email me with any questions. I'd
be happy to share the project plan they developed.

~~~
bombs
Were you happy with the result?

~~~
glen
It isn't done yet, but they've been keeping me up to date and very
professional. It should be done in the next 7-10 days.

------
Mankhool
I got a very rough quote from a Toronto firm to do a location based app for
web, iPhone and Android for approximately $370,000. I just talked to a
Vancouver developer who charges $120/hr. As others have mentioned there are
numerous variables, but most developers will usually be happy to do an initial
free consultation to learn more about your project so that they can at least
ballpark a figure to you.

~~~
gte910h
What? I can't imagine spending that much money on a non-game development
effort for a mobile device. What the heck does it do?

~~~
nl
"location based app for web, iPhone and Android for approximately $370,000"

Note the "AND"'s. I suspect this isn't some simple thing - it's probably a
300K web app + 2 35K mobile apps.

~~~
gte910h
Yeah, didn't see the "AND". Android is more expensive too usually for various
reasons.

~~~
nl
Is it? Why? (Just less programmer doing it?)

~~~
gte910h
Android is harder because:

Multiple resolutions Poor Tools (Eclipse is clunkier than Xcode, but there is
no visual layout tool at all like Interface Builder for iPhone)

Hand Coded Layouts in XML

Multiple OS Platforms (Android 1.5, 1.6, 2.0 and 2.1 are all live in the wild
and are not user upgradeable past the version they have).

Varied Screen Sizes (And no, you don't have to specifically account for this
in the iPad, your iPhone app will run just fine).

In addition to those fundamental issues, currently the apis:

In-App purchase on android is a bit clunky for some programs (you are buying a
separate app on the android market)

Sound is horrible, just horrible

Video is poorly documented, not very standardized, and not easy to use. People
who write _major_ frameworks have trouble getting documentation on good ways
to make good videos (I know, I mailed them the FFMPEG parameters required to
do streaming video).

And lastly, it looks like the G1, the flagship phone, has been mis-specced,
and will likely never get the 2.x line of android OS releases (that's what
droid runs now).

------
wallflower
I would pick a development team here and have some small part in the codebase.
Be willing to pay a little more for people who are willing to answer your
questions and keep you accountable for small tasks. That is the basic
framework (minus the pay) for a long-term iPhone bootcamp that I will be
starting with a long-distance friend soon. Everything will be done over Google
Wave and Github-like sites.

------
faramarz
Thanks for the question. I'll be monitoring this thread, because I'm
entertaining the thought of outsourcing my iPad app. development as well.

 _Upvoted_

~~~
NiftyIon
Hey, I commented earlier on this thread: <http://hackerne.ws/item?id=1251640>

Although I do feel a bit spammish writing again (when you've already said
you'd be monitoring), I just want to emphasize that if you willing to
outsource to a group of moderately trained but dedicated high schoolers, we'd
be very glad to accomodate - and would do so cheaply.

------
byoung2
I've worked with Take 5 Labs (<http://takefivelabs.com/>) for iPhone app
development. They developed an app for the last company I worked for
(<http://www.veritasprep.com/iphone-gmat-practice-quiz/>). That app was in the
$5-10k range.

------
auston
Might I recommend that you make it a web app?

All of the facilities you have listed are available in Safari (client side
storage, location data).

~~~
rickharrison
That is an option, but much more difficult if he is planning on selling his
app.

~~~
semanticist
Once it's developed and working, PhoneGap can turn it into a native app that
can be sold on the App Store.

Also has the benefit that it can be potentially made cross-platform, so you're
not as tied into just the iPhone.

------
callmeed
A friend and I went to a few dev shops with an iPhone app idea. We got bids
from $10k up to $50k.

I really like the work these guys do: <http://www.ubermind.com>

You might also post in 37signals' job board–they have an iPhone category.

------
pkrishnak
Hi,

I am the CEO of Chaitu Systems. We focus on developing iPhone and iPad
applications only, with a team in India that has already delivered some
projects. Please connect with me at krishna.kumar@chaitusystems.com if you
want to discuss your outsourcing requirements.

Regards,

Krishna Kumar

------
catch23
Since you're in the SF Bay Area, you should hang around the Hacker Dojo and
see if there are any takers. Generally speaking, there are pretty good
developers there and they don't charge and arm&leg for development.

------
jm3
<http://theymakeapps.com> \- a directory designed to answer exactly the
question you're asking. They also won a Best-of-Web award at SXSW last month.

------
bobwaycott
If you think you can do it in a month, then save yourself the money. I don't
think you'd really get any app worth it's salt in two weeks, no matter who is
doing the coding.

------
pkrishnak
I am sorry, I forgot to mention I live in the Bay Area, and am contactable
locally. Please send an email, and we can connect.

Regards, Krishna Kumar CEO, Chaitu Systems

------
mkramlich
I wrote the Postabon iPhone app (heavy location-based features), and wrote and
shipped about 8 other iPhone apps before that. Your dev time expectations
sound approximately right (without knowing more details), but I can't speak to
current prices, they fluctuate quite a bit.

Any other questions, ping me.

