
Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps - neversaydie
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52650856
======
chakerb
> Google and Apple maps do not differentiate between a good road and a bad
> road - but that's so important

They also don't differentiate some closed borders! I had an idea in mind to
travel across the Arab Maghreb[0] (well excluding Libya for obvious reasons)
after the COVID-19 situation start to get better. However, Google Maps said
that I can drive car between Algeria and Morocco, which isn't the case[1]. I
chose to reroute it to pass through Mauritania instead, however it suggested a
non paved road (according to the satellite images) and it seems from my
research that the area that Google maps suggested in Algeria is closed for
foreigners.

EDIT: OSM seems to suggest to go through Mali instead which indeed a better
choice ( well road-wise, giving that I want to go through Mauritania).

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Maghreb_Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Maghreb_Union)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria%E2%80%93Morocco_relati...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria%E2%80%93Morocco_relations#The_borders)

~~~
new2628
There are all these technical solutions, but the following may lead to a
better experience and more fun trip overall: Make a rough plan in advance,
then as you get there, start asking around and follow the advice of locals:
truck drivers, gas station operators, hostel receptionists, etc.

------
andrewaylett
The Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team:
[https://www.hotosm.org/](https://www.hotosm.org/)

It's quite easy to contribute if you've any OpenStreetMap experience -- sign
up for tasks on [https://tasks.hotosm.org/](https://tasks.hotosm.org/) and you
can see a list of open projects. There are often specific requests, like
taking a tile of aerial photography and mapping out the roads and buildings.

~~~
sradman
Humanitarian OpenSteetMap looks similar/complementary to Million Neighborhoods
[1] mentioned today in another HN post [2]. Both articles seem to be timed
with the opening of the 2020 State of the Map conference [3].

[1] [https://millionneighborhoods.org/](https://millionneighborhoods.org/)

[2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23722133](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23722133)

[3] [https://2020.stateofthemap.org/](https://2020.stateofthemap.org/)

------
globular-toast
I'm an OSM contributor and general map geek so I find it interesting to find
unmapped areas. But the language used in this article seems unfortunate. For
example:

> People are living and dying without appearing on any database.

What if they don't want to appear on any database? The motivations given later
seem laudable, but it troubles me that it should be considered wrong simply to
not appear on any database. Probably not what was meant, but it sounds like
it.

> It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough
> interest to even know where they are.

Shameful? Like, I should be ashamed of myself for mapping my local area, where
I live and walk every day, rather than travelling to remotest Africa and
mapping there? Again, I'm sure this isn't what was meant, but that is
literally what it says.

When reading further down the article it seems more sensible: giving the
locals the tools and training needed to map the areas themselves. I'm just
getting really sick of the ongoing narrative that says a) we should be ashamed
of being born in a developed country and b) all other places on earth need to
develop just like us.

------
punnerud
Could come a long way with a [https://www.kaggle.com](https://www.kaggle.com)
challenge.

Does OpenSteetmap have road quality? If yes, this could be used together with
satellite photos for training

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
Yes, you can mark road quality, or more particularly, road material and number
of lanes.

------
bbarnett
"It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough
interest to even know where they are. People are living and dying without
appearing on any database."

I know. Context. _Context_. There's nothing wrong with the above, with last
sentence in context.

But that last sentence makes me cringe, these days. The thought! The very
thought that a human being may be anonymous, not counted, not known, not
measured, watched, their every whim calculated and predicatively known, their
essence stored for the ages.

A human! Look, over there! A human, and.. and... it's not in our database!
YOUR NAME, NOW! YOUR ID, NOW! Who are you? What is your precise address? Who
were your parents? Where do you bank, work, live? Write all your friends down
on this piece of paper, everything you ever read or do, NOW!

In other contexts, in other paragraphs, that same sentence would be uttered by
Gollum archetypes at Facebook, Google, the CIA/NSA/etc, well.. essentially,
everywhere. The horror for them. Gollum, writhing at the thought, horror on
his face:

"People are living and dying without appearing on any database."

How can this be?! HOW! Not tracked?!

All those that wish to profit, or mistakenly believe knowing when we take a
dump, will "make them safe". Watch. Watch, spy, sneak, slither, control. Get
the precious, hold it close, data is the new gold, the new devil, the new
evil.

And they covet it.

All those little gollums, writhing their hands, wanting their precious, their
precious data.

 _shudder_

~~~
nelaboras
I think you're missing the point and purposefully misinterpreting this
statement. Its not about tracking these people, its about allowing them to
participate in today's world - from healthcare to mail.

~~~
PuffinBlue
There it is: the siren call of the proselytising do gooder.

My advancements will succour thee and into the warm boosm of modernity
embrace.

~~~
AmericanChopper
I think this specifically relates to a slightly different problem, which is
domain experts viewing their domain as being much more important than it
actually is. There’s no reason at all to presume that a cartographer would
have anything insightful to say about anything aside from cartography. Society
has vested interests in many different areas, but cartographers can only be
relied upon to have an interest in furthering the goals of cartography.

~~~
nitrogen
I don't know, part of me agrees that specialization can lead to
shortsightedness, but part of me also feels like this siloing of knowledge and
siloing of influence is a way to divide and conquer, ensuring that only a
select few have any say in society's direction.

~~~
AmericanChopper
I’d say the siloing is necessary, but your concerns about its consequences
result from poor leadership.

It’s a problem that I’m sure most of us have seen play out at work. Companies
tend to be divided into specialized departments, but if any of those
departments gain too much influence over the rest of the company, things can
go badly. Overly influential sales or security departments are a common thing
people like to complain about. But if you end up with a company led by its
sales team, it’s not really the sales teams fault, they’re just doing their
job and advocating for the interests of the sales team. That failure would be
with executive leadership, who’s supposed to listen to the advice/concerns of
many different groups, each with their own specialized area of interest, and
balance all their needs out according to some sort of over arching strategy.

The same thing happens in public policy. For example, police are always going
to advocate giving more power to police, because it helps them do their jobs
and achieve the goals of their organization. That by itself is not a problem,
because the role of government is to listen to those concerns and then to
balance them out with all of society’s other interests. If that doesn’t happen
to your satisfaction, it’s a failure of government, not of the police.

It’s also one of the reasons why leadership during a crisis or after a tragedy
is so prone to producing bad outcomes. Because those circumstances put one
area of interest in the spotlight and make it very easy to forget about
everything else. That’s how we ended up with the patriot act.

------
JaceLightning
I'd argue that no one appears on a map. Buildings and roads do.

~~~
will_pseudonym
Neither do buildings and roads!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation)

