
H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules - alfozan
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2017/01/06/h-1b-visas-u-s-lawmaker-re-introduces-bill-to-tighten-rules/?mod=e2fb
======
shas3
I think there's a big misconception here on this thread, thanks to the poorly
written WSJ blog post. Rep. Issa's bill only applies to companies which have
more than 15% of their workforce of 50 or more on visas. That number is
calibrated to affect outsourcing companies like Infosys, TCS, HCL, etc. So,
while it's fun to jump on the "foreigners shouldn't work in America" bandwagon
on this thread, this bill is not what you are looking for.

[https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2017/01/06/new-h-1b-vis...](https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2017/01/06/new-h-1b-visa-
bill-darrell-issa-will-hurt-indian-companies-zoe-lofgren-introduce-new-bill/)

However, Rep. Zoe Lofgren's bill is a little different and does two things,
replace lottery by a bidding type system and eliminate country caps, which, by
introducing an artificial 8-12 year wait time for Indians, makes even non-
outsourcing company employees de facto indentured labor. (So, if you are one
of five experts in the world on say, mining safety, you still have to wait 10
years for a permanent residency just by virtue of where you were born.)

~~~
diogenescynic
Sounds awesome considering those body shops use up most of the H-1B quota and
significantly underpay their employees compared to industry wages. For
example, somewhere between 47% and 85% of H-1Bs are being significantly
underpaid compared to their peers, evidence that the program is not being used
to bring over workers with "specialized knowledge" as they claim--but to drive
down wages. It makes sense though, when you look at the biggest H-1B
recipients: [http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.aspx](http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)
It's mostly the low quality outsourcing shops like Infosys, TCS, Wipro, HCL,
and Cognizant.

Instead of accepting 65,000 H-1Bs at random--accept the 65,000 H-1Bs with the
highest wages. That way we are getting the immigrants with the highest valued
skills and stopping companies like Infosys, TCS, Wipro, HCL, and Cognizant
that game the immigration system by applying for the cheapest H-1Bs possible.

~~~
shas3
I'm not sure about the bidding war. I've been in situations where companies
are looking for people with specific skills (e.g. working with specific
microbiology techniques) but would never be able to outbid what Facebook or
someone in Bay Area would pay for generalist skills in another field. There is
nowhere close to 100% elasticity in wages to make an auction system fair.

Also, this would handicap companies in low-cost-of-living regions of the US.
This includes a massive chunk of the economy in solid economies with low costs
of living like Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio, Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, and
Georgia.

~~~
geebee
I'm not sure that I'm sympathetic to employers who want to pay less. Keep in
mind, the US takes in well over a million immigrants a year, and has a huge
internal workforce. The H1B was created to help employers find critical and
highly skilled workers that are in desperately short supply in the US.

"Oh, but we can't afford to _pay_ them a lot of money, that's not fair!" isn't
the sort of argument that tends to evoke much sympathy. We're talking about
empowering corporations to bestow US live and work rights on an employee of
their choosing, in an end-run around normal immigration procedures.

Honestly, if the salary isn't really high, I'm skeptical about whether this
visa is being used properly.

~~~
shas3
"if the salary isn't really high..."

How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC.
While a high skilled scientist working in say, Corning, NY at Corning Corp or
Niskayuna, NY at GE's research labs, 100k enables a king's life. How would you
adjust for experience? Perhaps a company sees immense potential and cultural
fit in an employee and wants to groom them for future roles? The wages of a
30-year industry veteran would kick the promising young star out of the H1B
pool, etc. etc.

Setting a wage threshold without considering other factors is unfairly
simplistic.

Besides, companies pay wages based on industry and market averages. You can't
suddenly expect them to peg wages to outbid competitors on H1B. Why would
Procter and Gamble or Dow or Caterpillar pay university, Facebook, McKinsey,
or hedge fund wages? Why should they?

~~~
vostok
> How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or
> NYC. While a high skilled scientist working in say, Corning, NY at Corning
> Corp or Niskayuna, NY at GE's research labs, 100k enables a king's life.

Highly skilled workers do not receive cost of living adjustments. I've been
recruited for jobs in low cost of living and high cost of living areas. The
pay is the same in both when there is a true shortage of labor.

This is why the auction system is great. If Company A wants to pay Engineer X
$500k and Company B wants to pay Engineer Y $50k then clearly Company A has a
greater need.

~~~
elevenfist
> Highly skilled workers do not receive cost of living adjustments. I've been
> recruited for jobs in low cost of living and high cost of living areas. The
> pay is the same in both when there is a true shortage of labor.

Policy cannot be determined by anecdotes.

> Company A wants to pay Engineer X $500k and Company B wants to pay Engineer
> Y $50k then clearly Company A has a greater need.

Hardly a forgone conclusion, there are numerous confounding factors. For
example company B might not have the resources/revenue to outbid company A.

Another counterexample of many for why an auction system is terrible: employee
y could be a research scientist in industry contributing to the foundation of
a new industry. An auction system would give their visa to a fullstack
developer hired by a startup flush with funding.

~~~
vostok
> For example company B might not have the resources/revenue to outbid company
> A.

If Company B doesn't have the resources to outbid Company A then we've
decided, as a society, that whatever Company A is doing is more important that
what Company B is doing.

> Another counterexample of many for why an auction system is terrible:
> employee y could be a research scientist in industry contributing to the
> foundation of a new industry. An auction system would give their visa to a
> fullstack developer hired by a startup flush with funding.

That sounds like a problem with the way that we fund science and not a problem
with immigration.

Also, anecdotally, there is no shortage of scientists. I know plenty of people
who had to go into tech or finance because they couldn't find science jobs.

~~~
denzil_correa
> If Company B doesn't have the resources to outbid Company A then we've
> decided, as a society, that whatever Company A is doing is more important
> that what Company B is doing.

The question being - has that been decided in a fair manner?

~~~
st3v3r
Would it be fair for the candidate to not get the highest wage possible? I
don't see how this problem is any different than trying to get non-immigrant
labor. Company A is offering a significantly higher salary to a citizen than
Company B, they'll probably get the candidate.

------
suryacom
On one talks about the actual issue with the H1B. I'm a H1B holder from India,
living and working in USA for past 10 years. The actual incentive for
companies is that, an H1B holder from India has less rights, they cannot
change job or even travel freely outside USA (for decades). That gives the
employers full control of the employee. Any guess why companies only recruit
from India and China? Because, the country based wait time -- to become a US
citizen -- is decades for these countries. So, consultancies will have no
problem paying higher salary for someone from India or China.

Immigration Attorneys are making a fortune of this broken system; for e.g.,
every year my company has to pay attorney fee to renew my visa. Any time I
change my job, green card process has to be restarted from square one..more
cash to attorneys.

P.S. I remember when I first came here 10 years back I was told by the
attorney to wait for 5 years to be a resident. Last year, in 2016, when I went
to another attorney he too tells me to wait for another 5 years. So, they
never tells the actual wait time is 50 to 70 years. Even the USCIS don't
disclose the actual wait time. So, hundreds of thousands highs killed
immigrants place all their bets based on the words of Immigration Attorney and
get into a mess from where they find hard to get out.

[Edit]: In my opinion, a possible fix shall be to give H1B holder job
mobility. I.e., if TCS/Infosys brings in H1B holders to replace American
workers; and those H1B holders leave TCS/Infosys the next day; then that
business model will not work to begin with.

~~~
ashwinaj
> they cannot change job

Correction: You can change jobs, but the green card process needs to start
again but you keep your priority date. EDIT: You can change jobs to another
"similar" position i.e. the job responsibilities should be similar. You can't
move from an individual contributer to a manager position for example. In this
case, the green card application will have to be done again.

> That gives the employers full control of the employee

Only if you let them. You are free to leave to another job, but many are risk
averse. The employers expolit this; personally I am a risk taker so I don't
see this as a hindrance.

> So, hundreds of thousands highs killed immigrants

Calling each and everyone highly skilled is questionable. A lot of H1B
employees (and local employees for that matter) do not do highly skilled work,
relatively speaking. I know this is controversial statement, but please be
honest and avoid hyperbole.

~~~
suryacom
What you mean by you are a risk taker? You have no idea what you are comparing
here.

Will you risk your family getting deported due to a clerical error? Once H1B
lose his job, he and his family has to leave the country in 15 days. Sell his
house, pull kids out from school, etc. All this arises whenever H1B tries to
change the job.

~~~
BurningFrog
> _Once H1B lose his job, he and his family has to leave the country in 15
> days_

This is not true in practice. There _is_ a rule saying that, but it has never
been enforced. As long as you don't leave the country, you'll have no problem
looking for a new job for however long that takes.

At least that's what my immigration lawyer told me many years ago.

~~~
chrisper
Would you really be able to sleep well every night on the premise "it's okay,
it hasn't been enforced _yet_ " if you are unemployed on an H1B? I know I
would not be able to. In fact, it's not something you can really rely on and
make part of your plans. All you need is getting caught by some mad traffic
cop and in court it turns out you are out of status and you will be deported.

~~~
BurningFrog
> _Would you really be able to sleep well every night on the premise "it's
> okay, it hasn't been enforced yet" if you are unemployed on an H1B?_

I actually _have_ done that.

ICE is very slow to deport even the categories they actually prioritize.
Millions keep living here for decades. They're not monitoring traffic court
for unemployed engineers.

Sure, anything can happen, but the risk of dying in traffic or a crime is far
more real than this.

------
dmode
I support many H1B reforms - it is essentially a broken program. Canadian and
Australian immigration systems provide a good model to build off of a
successful high skilled guest worker program. Of course, like everything in
the US, an army of lobbyists will prevent such common sense programs to be
implemented.

Raising the minimum wage to 100K is the wrong approach. Computer science
degree programs are a major source of development talent for many
organizations, and I doubt most companies will be willing to pay 100K for jr
developers graduating out of Master's program. This will start a weird loop
were US higher education will no longer be attractive and talent pools will
dwindle with universities suffering from major revenue shortfalls. And if
students start going back to their native countries after a US higher
education, it just enriches the talent pool abroad making outsourcing even
more compelling.

Further, there are a number of professions outside of software that employ H1B
candidates to perform important roles - mechanical engineers, industrial
engineers, earthquake analysts etc Those fields have even more shortage of
talent and a minimum 100K wage will further shrink the talent pool.

~~~
cbhl
CS grads can easily make over 110k with a Bachelor's on H1B in the SF Bay
Area.

If you're looking to hire someone for less than that... hire an American!

~~~
cthalupa
In the SF Bay Area.

There are plenty of people who have no desire to live in places with that high
of a cost of living.

------
davidw
Why not take a courageous approach and let people in who want to work? Don't
tie them to one job. Don't pick arbitrary numbers of the 'right' number of
immigrants. Don't try ever more complex schemes based on where people live and
what job they do. Keep the government involved to vet them in terms of
avoiding criminals, and let the market handle how many people to bring in, not
government bureaucrats and politicians.

I mean, IT work is pretty easy to outsource, so make it hard enough for
talented people to come to the US and the work will just get shipped abroad.

[http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-
number...](http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number-of-
immigrants.html)

~~~
nugget
One challenge is that people who grew up in America have totally different
expectations in terms of quality of life and living standards than immigrants
from poor countries who are willing to move here and start from scratch. A
poor kid from India or China might move to Silicon Valley or NYC and spend a
decade sharing a studio with 4-5 others in his/her situation, just for the
chance to escape poverty back home. Is it fair to force two people from such
different backgrounds to compete? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, the
American citizens who you are forcing to compete against a global labor pool
all have the right to vote, and may cause unexpected political turbulence,
which is what we saw in this last election (and, my gut says, just the tip of
the iceberg in terms of what's to come).

~~~
davidw
They are _already_ competing, though.

You're probably right that we need to do something to ameliorate the worst
effects of global competition and automation, but keeping talented people out
(the number of H1B visas is totally dwarfed by people on family visas anyway)
is probably not going to help.

------
outworlder
> The proposed legislation would increase required salaries for positions
> granted under the H-1B scheme that replace American workers from $60,000 to
> $100,000 per year.

Big whoop.

There are (three?) big players that are heavily outsourcing folks at "client
sites". Ideally, H1Bs should be relatively easy to get for the first ones –
after all, many companies have a legitimate need to bring in specialized labor
from abroad. Then tack an exponential difficulty curve per company.

This way, a startup would be able to recruit a very talented individual from
abroad. But big corps wouldn't be able to layoff and replace their workforce.

------
vadym909
Why $100K makes sense. Data from 2014 showing how many H1b and the average
salary for the top H1b seekers. The legit companies are paying on average
>$100K

Infosys 32,379 $76,494 Tcs 8,785 $66,113 Wipro 6,733 $69,953 Igate 2,056
$67,168 Cognizan 1,704 $67,506 L & T 4,380 $59,933 Hcl 3,012 $81,376 Tech Mah
2,249 $73,374 Ust Glob 1,549 $73,374

Deloitte 8,028 $85,295 Ibm 5,839 $87,789 Accenture5,099 $70,878 E& Y 2,188
$88,353 NttData 1,156 $100,889

Microsft 3,911 $113,408 Qualcom 3,086 $105,169 Google 2,163 $126,565 Intel
1,945 $102,883 Oracle 1,773 $113,065 Amazon 1,256 $109,409 Jpmorgan 1,256
$105,837 Apple 1,038 $130,690

~~~
mavelikara
Your data presented with better formatting:

    
    
            Infosys	        32,379       $76,494 
            TCS              8,785       $66,113 
            Wipro	         6,733       $69,953 
            IGate            2,056       $67,168 
            Cognizant        1,704       $67,506 
            L & T            4,380       $59,933 
            HCL              3,012       $81,376 
            Tech Mahindra    2,249       $73,374 
            UST Global       1,549       $73,374
                                         
            Deloitte         8,028       $85,295 
            IBM              5,839       $87,789 
            Accenture        5,099       $70,878 
            E & Y            2,188       $88,353 
            NttData          1,156      $100,889
                                        
            Microsft         3,911      $113,408 
            Qualcom	         3,086      $105,169 
            Google	         2,163      $126,565 
            Intel	         1,945      $102,883 
            Oracle           1,773      $113,065 
            Amazon	         1,256      $109,409 
            JP Morgan        1,256      $105,837 
            Apple	         1,038      $130,690

------
EduardoBautista
Honestly, I am all for raising the wage requirement. This will definitely help
to reduce the use of H1B for hiring underpaid foreign labor.

~~~
mjevans
I feel like this proposed bill doesn't go far enough.

H-1B visas should ONLY be granted for workers that are in such need that they
are above the 90th percentile of pay for that role. They should also be
limited to no more commitment to the company than their peer workers.

Once within the country, an H-1B worker should also be able to leave for other
employment (without the top market rate requirement) whenever they choose and
with a 6-12 month grace period for finding new work if they quit or are laid
off.

The entire point should be about bringing valuable future citizens in to the
country, and the program should definitely be a strong path to citizenship.

It also makes sense to have a different (easier to get) type of immigration
for workers that want to start a company (and have most of those jobs) within
the US.

~~~
hackerboos
As someone that came through Canada's equivalent of the H1-B system, I think
the Canadian system gets it mostly right:

\- A points system based on a combination of industry requirement, education,
experience and English/French language ability

\- Permanent resident from day one

\- No restrictions on moving employer or province

\- Health insurance coverage after 90 days (Ontario)

\- Citizenship after 3 years (once Bill C-24 is repealed)

[http://www.cic.gc.ca/English/immigrate/skilled/index.asp](http://www.cic.gc.ca/English/immigrate/skilled/index.asp)

~~~
Manishearth
I have Indian friends in Canada who were hired for an American company but are
currently in a Canada office since the company plans to L1 them (which is much
easier since getting an H1B as an Indian citizen is hard). I have been
(unsuccessfully) trying to convince them stay and avoid the tons of issues
that US immigration has. Well, one of them wants to stay in Canada, but I
think he wanted to from the start since he was aware of these things too.

I myself was considering Canada for my current job, but chose against it due
to a number of reasons specific to my case.

Fortunately they all work for a good company, which probably won't abuse its
power over them once they're in the U.S.

------
nbakshi
100K in Bay area is not equal to 100K in some other part of US. Also H1B is
not only used by the IT industry but other industries as well, where paying
100K may be tough.

~~~
xname2
Exactly. I am in Arkansas, $100k is crazy, only a director of a big department
can make this kind of money.

~~~
learc83
Really, a senior dev can't make $100k with bonuses? You should come to
Atlanta. Only about a 15% higher cost of living than Little Rock, and you can
definitely make $100k as a senior developer.

~~~
steverb
Heck, come to Knoxville TN. Lower cost of living and 100K is fairly easily
attainable for a senior dev.

------
partycoder
This post might be hard to read, but believe me I wish to be as respectful as
possible and contribute my perspective.

Economy follows the path of least resistance. If hiring a local costs $120,000
but a guy you can message via LinkedIn and interview over the phone can do the
same work for $80,000 with less negotiating power and less job mobility, then
you do it. If you don't do it, your competitor or someone else will and then
use the advantage to beat you in the market. The path of least resistance is
also the reason companies move their headquarters to tax havens.

Then, there is a culture issue. Americans are very competitive, even in
situations where the best strategy is to collaborate. It can be hard to work
with someone who you know will compete at any opportunity even when it makes
no sense at all, like getting angry when receiving a suggestion no matter the
intention.

Then, everyone is defensive of what is said and how it is said because
basically anything can get you sued. The most valuable American management
skill is basically how to avoid getting the company sued. Like saying
everything on a 1 on 1 meeting with no witnesses or record of it happening.

Then, Americans can hop jobs easily. Make someone angry (e.g: giving feedback,
assigning a boring task or project) and that person will quit. Not so easily
with H-1Bs.

This creates a culture where it is cheaper to set people for failure and fire
them rather than giving them proper feedback, or letting them spend millions
in reinventing the wheel with a pet project rather than seeing them go en-
masse.

------
euphoria83
Raising the minimum wage is a welcome move to counter abuse of this visa.
However, the minimum level needs to be set based on the city of employment and
it's living cost. It cannot be a flat rate.

~~~
adrr
Counter argument to that is that its better for government and country to have
higher paid employees as it increases tax revenues. Tax rates don't change
based on living costs.

My proposal would be stack rank all h1b candidates based on salary and take
the top X. This would push up the salaries for H1bs and stop the abuse. It
would indirectly lead to increase of all engineering salries both my removing
negative pressure of having low salaried employees but also H1Bs salaries are
public record.

~~~
cardine
> Counter argument to that is that its better for government and country to
> have higher paid employees as it increases tax revenues. Tax rates don't
> change based on living costs.

The goal of reform is to prevent employers hiring h1b workers at below market
rates instead of hiring qualified US citizens. It is not to increase tax
revenue.

If you don't adjust for cost of living you'll end up removing _all_ h1b
workers from lower cost of living areas - or those areas will simply outsource
all their tech work overseas - while in higher cost of living areas companies
will still be hiring h1b workers at below market rates. So in essence the wage
threshold won't be doing its intended job.

However if you adjust for cost of living you can make sure that in all
locations the required salary is setup to prevent h1bs as being abused as a
cheap source of labor.

------
throw345hn
One of the problems with the highest bidder approach its going to favor senior
devs. This is good thing but you also have to look at graduates who have come
to the US to study and may not be able to earn that much immediately but are
just as likely to earn a lot more in a few years. If the ruling forces them to
move them, then it will result in draining the talent.

~~~
BhavdeepSethi
Students from universities already have an OPT valid for 36 months (12+24),
which is sufficient time to move to the highest bidder approach.

~~~
nishs
> (12+24)

The 24 month extension is only available to STEM graduates.

~~~
learc83
What non STEM jobs are hiring H-1B visa holders?

~~~
ofcrpls
MBAs also get the OPT but no STEM extension.

------
c517402
IIRC this report[1] says the schools in Dodge City, KS are having funding
problems because 86% of the students come to school not speaking English and
have to be taught English. This is because the meat-packing industry imports
most of its labor. Please explain to me why foreigner workers are needed to
trim meat off of beef carcasses.

Maybe everything isn't about coding.

[1] [https://news.vice.com/story/kansas-school-funding-
crisis](https://news.vice.com/story/kansas-school-funding-crisis)

------
edblarney
It's an interesting paradox ... the top users of H1s are foreign companies,
like Infosys and Tata - they bring in people on these visas.

So in a way, it's kind of 'insourcing' not 'outsourcing'.

I truly wonder if those companies would opt to just leave their staff in
India, and to hire mostly just customer-facing support types here otherwise.

In that case, the US would lose a lot of tax revenue (and spending) from those
foreigners who are in the US on H1's - who are clearly generating a lot of
value, not exactly slouches on welfare or what-not.

Granted - it could be that Infosys may have to hire real talent locally.

All of this outside the issue of FB, Google etc. hiring on H1's.

I wish someone would chime in with some hard research on this ... it'd be nice
to know the exact skills of those on H1's and how those align with US labour
market ...

I often think these laws are passed without grasp of the nuance ...

~~~
learc83
>I truly wonder if those companies would opt to just leave their staff in
India, and to hire mostly just customer-facing support types here otherwise.

It's already much cheaper to employ someone in India than to pay that person
in the US. The only reason they are using H-1B employees based in the US, is
that some companies that are contracting Infosys and Tata want US based
employees.

~~~
edblarney
"It's already much cheaper to employ someone in India than to pay that person
in the US."

Agreed, but there might be advantages to having someone in the US.

Given a 'major change' it's not entirely unfeasible that these companies do a
re-structuring, i.e. using a different customer engagement model (1 customer-
facing American + more staff in India) and leverage more 'remote' style
technology.

Also - remember that these companies may have been billing those staff out, so
'more cost' = 'more revenue' for them.

Anyhow - I just don't think it's so simple, and I'm not sure that just upping
the threshold will work. Granted, $60K is too low.

It'd be nice to have the number set to be commensurate with specific people in
specific fields, as measured by various things, i.e. 'tied to an index' so
that as the economy does better, companies can bring in more people, but if
things start to tighten, the H1's tighten as well.

~~~
learc83
>Agreed, but there might be advantages to having someone in the US.

My argument is that they are essentially already hiring the minimum number of
US based employees that they can get away with. There are companies
contracting them that want a minimum number of butts in seats on premises.

------
jtcond13
It's hard to think of another political issue on which the public has been so
completely fooled. Your average man-on-the-street really thinks these go to,
like, PhDs who are desperately needed in a lab somewhere. But no, they're for
pumping the bottom line of Infosys, Tata, Cognizant, et. al.

------
kevin_thibedeau
I would like to see a requirement for contracting companies to keep at least
51% of their domestic staff as US citizens. It's obscene that businesses are
allowed to game the H1B program by staffing through these middlemen. That is
not the original intent for these visas.

After the Disney fiasco it's clear that the rules for which jobs qualify need
to be tightened up. There is no way rank and file IT skills are so special
that guest workers need to be brought in.

~~~
codeonfire
It's not only obscene but completely racist and violates employment law in a
very open and flagrant way. There should be a lot more lawsuits like this:

[http://www.computerworld.com/article/3137500/it-
careers/info...](http://www.computerworld.com/article/3137500/it-
careers/infosys-u-s-workforce-is-mostly-south-asian-and-no-accident-
plaintiffs-allege.html)

------
learc83
Raising the minimum is about the only way (short of auctions) to prevent
companies from playing games with the prevailing wage requirements.

~~~
user5994461
The only way to have proper wages for H1B is to allow workers to change
company.

Right now, the H1B workers have zero leverage power, zero negotiation power
and they can't change job.

~~~
outworlder
They can. It's harder than what it would be for a permanent resident, but they
can, as there is a grace period.

Maybe you are thinking of L1?

~~~
vecinu
There is no grace period when you're terminated from an H-1B. There might be
one January 17th if it doesn't get revoked but right now officially you have 0
days to leave the country, no?

------
baristaGeek
Isn't it a HUGE problem that it's not discriminated by cities according to its
living costs?

I'm not an expert in macroeconomic policy but I guess it wouldn't be so hard
ad doing the discrimination for say the minimum salary, as business
owners/shareholders tend to have a better understanding of the concept of the
price index than minimum salary earners.

And I'm saying this because tech companies in the Bay Area won't have such a
hard time following this rule than startups in cheaper cities.

Which would be a recoil in terms of making all America have knowledge-based
industries. Wouldn't it?

As for people taking the H-1B, would this be something better? Or worse?

~~~
sratner
It is discriminated by city. Prevailing wage for the labour certification is a
function of location, position, and level. I am assuming the article is just
talking about raising the bottom end of the scale, but can't be sure - it is
certainly light on details.

------
lutorm
I wonder if the $100k would apply to academic H1B's too. If so, that's pretty
much the end of those.

~~~
codeonfire
What is an "academic H1B?" Students get a F1 visa, people with real
credentials get a J-1 or O-1 visa.

~~~
bbrian
The J1 isn't comparable to the H1B – it's a 12 month visa which must be
started within 12 months of graduation. There's also no suggestion of working
in academia on a J1 – it's the "intern" visa. I'm on it now in San Francisco,
with a view to getting a H1B.

~~~
hocuspocus
J-1 isn't only for interns and trainees.

A lot of postdocs and researchers in universities and public labs are on a
renewable (!) 2-year J-1, without quotas (in a for profit company the number
of interns on a J-1 is limited). That's another visa that is vastly abused,
but in a very different way :)

------
throwaway012017
As an employee on an H1B auth in the US, I cannot express my support for this
bill enough. I'd support making the minimum required H1B wage $150K base,
adjusted for living expenses.

God, I hate the stigma attached to mentioning what work auth I'm here on.
Sadly I have to let my work show that all H1s are not created equal.

The image of the H1B program has been tarnished because it has been used to
import people either for not-so-difficult jobs or lower costs, and, in some
cases, misrepresentation of abilities.

This bill, if passed, will go a long way in rehabilitating the image of and
correcting course for the H1B program. And THAT would be a weight lifted off
the minds of truly deserving H1 beneficiaries who are ready to stand up to
scrutiny and prove themselves worthy of a program meant for premium talent.

I agree with Congressman Issa on very little. This is something I
wholeheartedly support and this Congress better be ready to have some serious
justification if they don't pass this bill.

------
general_ai
Long time reader, first time poster. Both lawmakers being Califoria democrats,
I don't trust this one bit. Hear me out on this one. I have actually
experienced the H1B system on my own hide.

As others have mentioned in the comments, today H1B is basically indentured
servitude visa. While theoretically you can move to another job, few people
dare, especially if they have families, because in case of any screwup
whatsoever, you have to leave the country within 2 weeks. That's _insane_.
When I was H1-B I chose to wait until I got the green card before making any
moves. That took 8 years, during which I did not quite made the kind of career
progress I was hoping for. Now that I'm not an H1B, _magically_ I have no
problems whatsoever with advancing my career. What a bizarre coincidence.

And I'm not Asian, for Asians it takes longer than that. Another type of abuse
you often see (and that was the case with me) is companies hire a very
experienced worker in a much lower level position than he ought to be in,
considering the experience, and then keep them there until they either work up
the courage to move, or get the green card.

The _real_ fix for this should be two fold:

1\. Allow H1Bs to move more freely between jobs. If you're a programmer, you
should be able to move into e.g. DevOps or Data Science, or DB administration
without risking that some bureaucrat decides that's not an eligible
transition.

2\. Allow more time for them to do so, so they don't have to find another job
before leaving their current one. Six months to a year ought to be enough.
Implement a cliff of e.g. 1 year to make this more fair to employers if need
be, but don't kick families out of the country in 2 weeks just because the
breadwinner can't tolerate the abuse anymore.

This will make the market for H1B workers price-competitive with native
workers (since they will be able to command market rates given their levels of
experience), and DRAMATICALLY reduce abuse. That's literally all that needs to
be done. This will also make it easier for people just out of school to get
well paid jobs that would today be taken by overqualified and underpaid H1Bs,
because the employer will not be able to exploit their ignorance of the job
market for long.

Instead they are proposing some tactical bullshit that will only get in the
way of a more comprehensive reform that the Trump administration might (or
might not, the election is over) come up with.

~~~
randseq
Factual correction (per first sentence of the article): Issa is a republican
and the sponsor of the bill.

~~~
general_ai
Serves me right for not reading the article more carefully. Their proposal is,
nevertheless, wrong in its approach to the problem. This can only be solved by
putting constraints on the influx and removing constraints on mobility of the
people the US does let in. With these two things in place, the rest of the
issues will take care of themselves. As proposed $100K isn't much of a
deterrent for abuse, seeing that even with $100K+ pay there's a shortage of
_entry level_ talent in CA.

------
rodgerd
Always entertaining watching the HN zeitgeist on H-1Bs or offshoring of tech
jobs and contrasting it with the attitude to, say, the elimination of millions
of trucking or retail jobs.

~~~
Clubber
Most of the opinions I read consider the eliminating millions of trucking jobs
would be horrible for the middle class and are for a living wage to attempt to
combat it.

------
gopalv
There are probably some Indians who are celebrating this ... a minimum 100k
wage + a cost of living adjustment every 3 years.

If this is like the 2015 bill, that also includes the requirement to sign them
up for stock options, similar to a US employee.

However, the rule does have a corner case which allows bonuses to be part of
the 100k, so the employers might continue to pay low salaries all year round,
with a dangled 40-50k bonus at the end of the year.

Because the tech industry is something with a fairly long lag between demand &
supply, the best case scenario is that the wages go up all around & hopefully
that is spent in the US, instead of hoarded for a princely return to India.

The worst case scenario for a cost increase is that more work moves overseas,
taking the spending side-effects & tax revenue away from the US IRS, while the
corporate profits are unaffected, just total revenue cuts down.

~~~
Hondor
> hopefully that is spent in the US, instead of hoarded for a princely return
> to India.

Did you notice the anti-equality implications of what you said there? It's
roughly equivalent to:

"I hope that when poor people get rich, they eventually give their money back
to the rightfully rich people and don't keep it for themselves or use it to
support their poor family or to develop their poor economy."

Do you apply that idea generally to any poor people or just Indians?

------
blinkingled
This will just increase outsourcing - I wonder if there's a law that's going
to address that too - a tariff for software and services brought from outside
the country.

Seriously, attacking H1B problem purely with salary raises is the wrong
approach for many reasons - not all jobs cost a 100k that you can always find
American workers to do, it doesn't consider cost of living and further entices
companies to look into having offshore workforce. Instead, a slight upward
salary adjustment including cost of living adjustments and untying the VISA
itself from employer so H1Bs can change jobs freely and making the extension
process match the residency delays will go far ways in addressing abuse.

~~~
ksk
>a tariff for software and services brought from outside the country.

Its an interdependent world, and such things will probably cause another
global depression. "While you're squeezing the other guy's balls, someone else
has their hands on your balls"

Outsourcing is not a very black and white issue. For one thing, people can't
simultaneously claim that "My employers are able to recognize my talent" while
also claiming that "My employers are unable to recognize the lack of talent of
those other people"

~~~
blinkingled
Oh I am absolutely not advocating tariff on outsourcing, far from it. I
actually prefer a balanced system hardened against abuse - it's just that
there's so much hot headedness going on right now I was wondering if more
protectionism in the name of creating jobs is on the way.

~~~
ksk
Sorry, I guess I mis-read your comment. Feel free to ignore my reply :)

------
mattfrommars
I'm looking for serious recommendation on what to do right now in my life.

I'm currently 25 year old with roughly two year of industrial experience and
looking for a career change. One thing I absolutely want to work out is by
applying for Master's program from a US university and finding work after
graduation which will require H1B visa.

Is this a wise option? I will be moving from a third world country and be
mostly on self finance Masters. I know it will be expensive but I'm seeing it
as an investment which will pay off.

The intended field is in the tech side although I have a degree in Mechanical
Engineering. Did this new bill make it far more difficult to get work visa or
will the lottery system work?

I have a lot to lose if I don't get a work VISA really which would force me to
return to home country. Note: I'm not from India

------
kc10
I don't think this bill would solve or fix anything. If anything it makes
really hard for companies far from cities to find workforce. 100K base salary
is very less in bay area and in most cities, so it's not hard for these
companies to hire H1B workers.

Think about companies that are far from any cities, they may not find lot of
developers and they can't even hire H1B workers unless they pay 100K, why may
be a lot more than average labor wages. So, it would be more expensive for
businesses.

The same would be the case for proposed bill to introduce bidding system. It
just gets expensive for the businesses far from cities.

Removing the country quotas for the green cards is the fix needed. People are
tied to the employer now waiting years working low wages. Remove the country
quotas or at least give EAD - that encourages people to move if an employer
pays low salary.

------
findjashua
The real problem with H1B, that outsourcing firms exploit, is the lottery
system. Issa's proposal doesn't address that problem. Zoe Lofgren's bill,
which replaces the lottery with a salary ranking system, would be much more
effective, in my opinion.

[http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/06/technology/h1b-reform-
bill/](http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/06/technology/h1b-reform-bill/)

~~~
hibikir
We didn't have a lottery system a decade ago: What we had was big quotas, but
the same number of green cards as we've had for many decades. So instead of a
useless H1-B system which only helped big outsourcers, what we had was a big
H1B population that had to wait even longer to get permanent residency. Make
green cards quotas bigger and people that will stay here anyway will just
spend a lot less time as indentured servants, making them far less interesting
to the companies that are actually exploitative.

But that sounds like we are bringing in more immigrants, and that's not
something that the now suddenly very protectionist US will want to do.

~~~
mavelikara
Of the 1M people immigrating every year, only 14% goes to skilled workers on
H-1B. Of these both the primary applicant and their family get counted
separately, so the actual number is closer to 7%.

Of these 7%, there is a per-country limits - Iceland (population 320K) and
India (population 1.2B) both are allotted the same number of Green Cards.
These limits treat each nation equally, but not immigrant equally. Applicants
from Iceland get their Green Card in few months, but those from India will
have to wait many years to get theirs.

This is broken.

------
sytelus
Two biggest improvements that can be made in H1B program:

\- Fill slots by sorting candidates with highest salaries instead of lottery

\- Allow H1B holders to change employers as long as they are paid same or
higher salaries

This will create amazing market competition and pay rise for everyone while
making sure H1B holders don't get exploited by so called "body shoppers"
taking away majority of their pay.

~~~
hocuspocus
H-1B holders are already allowed to change employers. The issue lies within
the Green Card application process that is extremely long for some
nationalities.

An auction system sounds great but it would very heavily favor a handful of
companies in the tech industry.

------
tn13
Classic case of no-skin-in-the-game politicians making rules about other
people with dubious objectives to be achieved using naive policies.

------
yalogin
H1B is to hire from other countries because there is shortage of skilled
people in the US. If that is the case, why not make the minimum salary 2 times
(or some moderately unreasonable) amount the normal prevailing wage. The
companies already abuse the previaling wage. So making the minimum 2-3 times
is still OK.

------
maxpert
I can see Indian companies who where cheating with getting cheap workforce
here getting in trouble.

------
iamspoilt
This complements the post: [http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-
hiltzik-uc-vis...](http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-uc-
visas-20170108-story.html)

------
anirudh24seven
Does this affect remote working in any manner? I am from India and have
considered working remotely in later stages of my career. I have no intentions
of leaving India and moving to the US, but I might be applying to
organizations within the US.

------
known
No labor shortages
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Criticisms_of_the_pr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Criticisms_of_the_program)

------
sunilkumarc
Is this bill is passed, what does it mean for a person in India who wants to
apply(from India) and get hired by a US company who has a very good skill set
but doesn't have a master's degree?

~~~
whenwillitstop
It means you arent welcome

~~~
nishs
Be civil [0]. That was blunt, non-constructive, and perhaps mildly xenophobic.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
luckydata
I'm a liberal AND an immigrant and I strongly favor a reduction in the
availability of H1B visas, they are a tool for wage control and nothing else.

------
ebbv
We need to open our borders and let anyone who wants to come live and work in
the US come here. Fear of foreigners is a poison in the heart of this country.
Previous generations of immigrants have made the US what it is. The H1B
program benefits the companies at the expense of the people for b.s. reasons.

I say let anyone come here who wants to and if they can hold a job for 5 years
and they pay taxes make them a citizen. People are generally good and
xenophobia is stupid.

~~~
politician
This is a dangerous idea.

Let everyone in, and then watch housing prices shoot to infinity.

Let everyone in, and watch cities deteriorate into slums with the associated
no-go areas and warlords.

Let everyone in, let them drive wages to zero. Let everyone starve.

This is what you're advocating?

> Previous generations of immigrants have made the US what it is.

Previous generations had a physical barrier in the form of transportation
costs to the US. Today, we have airplanes and autos. Transportation costs are
a fraction of what they were in the Ellis Island era.

Have you seen the housing situation in Rio? The food lines in Venezuela? The
intense poverty in India? The pollution in China?

We don't have the technological or social controls to handle the affects of
high population density that would be the result of accepting your Open
Borders proposal.

~~~
ebbv
Your xenophobia is really sad.

The US won't turn into Venezuela, Brazil or China because immigrants come
here.

Additionally, jobs won't go to zero because more population creates more
demand for goods and services which necessitates more jobs.

This same absurd argument you're making was used to stoke fears about Irish
and Italian immigrants in the past. Now we realize how stupid it was then.
It's just as stupid now.

~~~
politician
How many people do you think would take advantage of your opportunity? How
quickly would we expect them to act?

~~~
ousta
isn't the US already taking advantage of middle east, europe and pretty much
everyone its trading with? the dollar being the global money is enough a sign.

------
jecjec
The H1B program is literally a giveaway to the 1%, owners of capital. I am
glad Trump wants to reduce immigration!

------
raspasov
If you're really worried about someone from abroad coming and stealing your
job, you should probably work harder and smarter yourself.

Can't help but feel that most Americans don't have a legitimate fear of
someone stealing their job and this is just a politicians' dumb game to try to
make themselves feel important by pretending they are increasing employment
and "doing something for their people". Total crap.

~~~
raspasov
Whoever is going to down vote me - watch this
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVXYmMNwGXM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVXYmMNwGXM)
and then come back and give me the vote back :).

------
throwaway2017ab
I was a full time H1B employee at AMEX for 3 years. Its not only the Indian
outsourcing firms who abuse the H1B visa system. All American companies
including AMEX also do that. The company never even had plans to give me a
promotion, not even increase my salary a bit even though I worked hard than
the Americans for 3 years !. They pretty well knew I was an indentured servant
and paid me 79K/annum. All salary raises and promotions were going to a
handful of lazy Americans who rolls into the office whenever they wish. They
will never bother to fix bugs or do production releases( because for them, its
not cool, we do only cool stuff like React,Angular 2, nodejs & docker.
Customer escalated bugs are not cool, let an H1B slave do it).

Anyways, now I am an ex-H1B, I left US and currently residing in Canada with
my permanent residence process well on track. I will get PR within 1+ years.
No one is going to abuse my status in Canada. I am totally free to work
anywhere for anyone. The feeling of freedom when I left US is so gratifying.

My PR process is not tied to my employer, its in my control and Canada's
express entry system gives importance to my skills than my luck as in H1B. Its
a good thing that the minimum wages are being raised, it will control the
abuse to some levels,like they did to me, but then there is a problem of jobs
being fully outsourced.

Why should I bother now. Its all behind me. US and its broken H1B immigration
system ! Downvote all you want. I am happy, I broke out this modern slavery
system.

~~~
usaphp
> "I worked hard than the Americans for 3 years !. They pretty well knew I was
> an indentured servant and paid me 79K/annum. All salary raises and
> promotions were going to a handful of lazy Americans who rolls into the
> office whenever they wish."

You seem to have a pretty aggressive attitude towards people whose country
gave you job and paid much more than you were making in your home country. You
also seem to have a measure of how hard someone works based on when they come
to work, in tech it's who works smartest not hardest is the most valuable.

> "I am happy I broke out this modern slavery system"

Did Americans force you to come to states and work for them? It was your
decision and you were always free to go and find something better in a
different country if you wished.

~~~
rtpg
Amex seemed to have a pretty aggressive attitude towards a person who moved
across the world to work for them.

Here's a person who had a job, paid taxes, participated in daily life, helped
this company grow, and you think you gave them something?

They were hired by a company in the US, the company thanks them by paying them
and helping them with immigration. This person was working like most of us, I
don't see why they don't deserve to be treated like a human being.

Calling this indentured servitude isn't a stretch. You uproot your life to
come to the US, and now your new life is being held hostage through arcane
immigration procedures. Of course they have the right to be pissed off!

There's also the irony that most people "earned" the right to work in the US
through the difficult task of being born in the country.

~~~
usaphp
> "I don't see why they don't deserve to be treated like a human being."

I don't see how he was not being treated like a human being? He was paid a
salary he agreed to when he signed the contract, he did the work that he
signed up for, we don't really know why he never got promotion, there could be
many reasons why, his aggressive attitude might be one of them...

------
jinglbox
This is an attempt by the corrupt Darrel Issa to help H1B fraudsters continue
their wage theft.

This bill is an attempt to get out in front of any real reform by making it
seem unnecessary. A child's trick. The fact is that everyone knows that
Silicon Valley corporations like Google, Facebook, and Apple use H1B fraud to
suppress (steal) wages.

You don't have to be even one ounce xenophobic or racist to think it's wrong
that American corporations hire foreign workers into indenture servitude
instead of paying free American workers more money... Look at the job
descriptions on the H1B disclosure sites...those are all just regular jobs in
Silicon Valley anyone would do for the right money... Fraud.

~~~
dmode
Google, Apple, and Facebook are literally the highest paying companies in the
world. If that is an example of "suppressed wages"...

~~~
jasonlotito
Well, keep in mind Apple, Google, and others were behind a wage fixing
scheme[1] that kept salaries lower. And because people see them as the highest
paying companies, that negatively impacts everyone's wages in the industry.

So, yes, it is an example of "suppressed wages," and if you think stealing
from people is alright, I'm not sure what to say.

1\. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-
Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-
Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation)

------
harry8
Can you remove the restraint of trade so you can H1-B a president?

~~~
walshemj
not such a silly idea I think Arnie or even a dual citizen leftie like Bo Jo
(Boris Johnson) would make a better president

