
Secret copyright treaty leaks. It's bad. Very bad. - Flemlord
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/03/secret-copyright-tre.html
======
tshtf
Last week MI5 in the UK argued against the 3-strikes filesharing laws as they
would encourage private citizens to use cryptography better in their
filesharing efforts.

If this treaty goes through it very well could be the harbinger of the
widespread adoption of darknets, better censorship-resistant networks, and
even more creative use of cryptography and networking technologies.

Rather than trying to affect legislative change (which is a viable strategy
too), some may wish to consider disruptive technologies which will render
treaties such as this irrelevant.

~~~
blintson
They'll just make encryption illegal. And record everything everybody does all
the time. They never stop. Their objective is to take everything they can. As
soon as this is passed they'll look into making even more restrictive laws. It
will never stop, the only solution is to play their game and try and keep
legislation from being passed, and get existing laws dismissed.

~~~
dtf
Could they really do this? HTTPS is pretty much vital to a major part of the
economy now. I find it hard to see how they could word anything other than a
blanket encryption ban in a manner which would prevent surreptitious use of
the remaining systems.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I really feel the cat's out of the bag here -
technology will always trump legislation.

~~~
Vivtek
One might say the same of air travel - yet a million people around the world
are denied the right to fly because somebody in the government typed their
name wrong on a form. Does anybody fix that? Find the person who cares. Hint:
nobody cares.

This treaty will make the Internet just like today's air travel. Do you think
technology will trump that?

~~~
gills
Yes.

------
pg
If this report is accurate, this treaty would be the biggest threat to the
startup business that I've seen.

How can we tell if it's accurate?

~~~
amichail
It's hard to justify the right for people to break copyright law.

At the same time, I can see how startups that are depending on the safe harbor
clause to host copyrighted material to attract users would be upset with the
rules of the game changing.

~~~
CamperBob
_It's hard to justify the right for people to break copyright law._

Considering that copyright isn't a natural right in the first place, I don't
see the problem.

~~~
bonaldi
Just as a data point -- it _is_ an inalienable human right, at least as
defined by the UN.

Article 27 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights:

 _(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material
interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of
which he is the author._

(Not that this by any means justifies or demands anything like the copyright
regime we have now, let alone this ridiculous power-grab extension of it. And
people are of course free to waive their rights at any time.)

~~~
tjogin
But enforcing that law means breaking an other inalienable human right; that
of privacy. And I'd say that law is more important.

~~~
tezza
It's for the courts to decide that balance, our opinions on the merits are
irrelevant

~~~
kls
The second amendment falsifies this statement. The only reason our opinions
are irrelevant, is because of complacency and the inevitable slide towards
tyranny that every world power faces as it ages. The government feels no
threat from the people and therefore feels comfortable in selling our freedoms
to the highest bidder. If the populous where not so complacent or
indoctrinated then our leaders would think twice before leveraging our rights
against us. This is a simple concept that the founding fathers understood all
to well. They knew the constitution was a piece of paper and that individuals
in the government would always look at it as such.

~~~
tezza
_complacency and the inevitable slide towards tyranny_

Look, I just don't agree with you that we are inevitably sliding towards
tyranny.

If you struggled like I do to consider that the Man could organise His way out
of a paper bag, let alone subjugate us all with tyranny, you might chill out
on some of these issues.

Not every battle is worth fighting to the steps of Capitol Hill for, and well,
in my opinion this Copyright stuff will get sorted out okay. There are big
players on both sides of the argument. I cannot imagine Google being too happy
about this Treaty.

~~~
kls
>Look, I just don't agree with you that we are inevitably sliding towards
tyranny.

You may not, but history repeats itself and human history is filled with a lot
more tyranny than gilded ages. Hell we are only 200 years out of it now. Rome
who we modeled ourselves after slid into it and imploded. So all historical
relevance leads one to logically consider that it is a slightly higher than
average possibility that we will repeat the cycle of history. Did we do so
much better this time?

>If you struggled like I do to consider that the Man could organize His way
out of a paper bag, let alone subjugate us all with tyranny.

It's happening all around the globe as we speak. It does not take much effort
to find tyranny everywhere you look. Just because the 1st world has grown
comfortable and detached does not mean that the 3rd world does not still
experience it. Many times from 1st world people that are propping up the
tyrants.

>Not every battle is worth fighting to the steps of Capitol Hill

Yes it is this is how tyranny works, the slow erosion of rights. One of the
greatest quotes ever penned was by Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niemöller in
which he said:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out because I was not
a communist; Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out
because I was not a socialist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I
did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the
Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

This was in response to the Nazi's tyrannical rule of Germany.

The point being, slow erosion of rights and targeting of other groups is the
modus operandi of oppression. It has to be checked at every advance or it
becomes that much more difficult to resist.

Have you ever noticed that not one President has ever repealed any powers
gained by the executive branch and many times oversteps the allotted powers
they are given. Make no mistake about it absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It is human nature, the founding fathers new it and tried to set up a system
that would leave it in check. Unfortunately, with the erosion of the state
governments and militias as a counterweight and the devastation that Europe
felt in 1 and 2 it left the US executive branch with the legislative branch as
it's only opposition and much like the senate of Rome we can see how well that
counterweight worked.

So you can not agree, but you are disagreeing with a lot of historical
evidence to the contrary and are pinning your hopes on the fact that this time
above all the rest we got it right.

Me I will remain a paranoid whack job like the founding fathers where and the
Jews of Germany where and like the Taiwanese are today.

~~~
caffeine
This is an excellent comment, and you are correct that we forget too quickly
the abuses of the past. Like Socrates' Apology.

I am reminded of the post a while ago regarding a man whose family was hounded
out of their home at gunpoint by the Feds, and their lives systematically
destroyed until he was forced to move out of the country, because one of the
companies buying hosting from the host he had founded was found doing
fraudulent business.

If we're lucky, we'll die before the countries we love turn to tyranny. Will
our children? Will our grandchildren?

~~~
kls
>If we're lucky, we'll die before the countries we love turn to tyranny. Will
our children? Will our grandchildren?

I understand the sentiment, but when I look into the face of my son. I hope
every day that if it should ever come to armed resistance that it comes to
pass in my time and not his. I am a pacifist above all else, but I would
rather have the moral obligation and the wages of war payed by my hand rather
than that of my namesake.

He did not create this mess and it weighs on my mind that this is the legacy
that I will leave him. We should all be ashamed of the legacy we are leaving
to our children and if our legacy to them is tyranny, oppression and struggle
then may we all be damned.

------
ubernostrum
Prediction: the treaty at the moment is deliberately bad in order to provoke
outrage and allow parties to the talks to negotiate a "better" compromise.

So, say, "three strikes" will get thrown out or, more likely, modified to
include an appeal process, and anticircumvention provisions will quietly get
ratcheted up as the other side of the "compromise".

~~~
nazgulnarsil
upvoted for political realism rather than the kneejerk reactions that
politicans have been taking advantage of for centuries.

------
dschobel
EFF's statement: [http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/11/leaked-acta-internet-
pr...](http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/11/leaked-acta-internet-provisions-
three-strikes-and-)

------
aohtsab
Here's Wikileaks' coverage:

[http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Proposed_US_ACTA_multi-
lateral_int...](http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Proposed_US_ACTA_multi-
lateral_intellectual_property_trade_agreement_%282007%29)

Maybe it's worth toying with the idea of setting up a private ISP—a pre-
emptive underground? This situation is absolutely ridiculous.

~~~
iheartmemcache
As I understand it, you'd still have to buy transfer from a tier 1 provider,
who'd cut you at the first sign of pressure from the federal government.
Logistically, how would one go about doing this?

~~~
tumult
You could start another internet. Wouldn't be very useful at the beginning,
though.

~~~
stse
I don't think you guys get that this law affects how you provide access to a
communications network. It doesn't matter if you have your own service
provider or network, you are still going to have to comply with the laws. The
entire point of this treaty is to hold the provider accountable for how people
use their services.

~~~
vorador
Well, what if this new network has no notion of provider ? I mean, would it
work with a peer-to-peer network ?

~~~
forensic
sure, how are you going to link computers together?

the only way that i can see this working is a NCLB improvised device-to-device
network, which is actually a great idea that the tech giants are terrified of
because they want to keep their proprietary lockdowns on everything

~~~
gloob
_sure, how are you going to link computers together?_

One Big Mesh.

Mind you, getting it set up would be a, um, non-trivial exercise.

~~~
forensic
isn't that what i said? :) Maybe I was vague in my NCLB description

------
CulturalNgineer
There are much better solutions to deal with these issues without trying to
turn ISP's and Website administrators into the second-string secret police!

I know it's a real problem and does deserve attention. But it's one thing if
some guy is trying to sell millions of digital copies of the latest Madonna
video from some motel in Eastern Europe, but it's quite another if someone
uses a few snips of songs in a video he's doing for YouTube!

I've experienced PERSONALLY what I would consider a smart approach and a dumb
approach on this.

I did some 30 second little YouTube videos to promote a thing I'm doing... and
in a couple of them I used snippets from a couple of popular songs... I'm
fairly naive and didn't think much of it because I wasn't selling the videos,
but I was promoting my thing (fortunately very benign so that wasn't an
issue)! Though it could be a fair concern...

Anyway, to make a long story short...

Their YouTube algorithms or whatever found 'em and did their robot "thing"...
but here's the interesting surprise!

On one (with a clip for a Barbara Streisand song) they just added a little
button to the bottom of my video identifying the song with a link for
purchase! I was fine with that and so were they!(it was Sony) A smart
approach!

But for the other, with a great guitar clip from Jeff Beck, they just stripped
the audio from my 30 second video... which I suppose was in a way fair... but
all that ended up happening is I had a useless video... and they lost an
opportunity for some sales... I forgot the publisher on that one... but it was
a damn good video!

This obviously doesn't cover all issues but the point is that there are much
wiser approaches that this abominable plan.

But politicians are like very stupid carpenters. They only understand
hammers... so everything becomes a nail to be pounded into the ground.

------
ErrantX
This is a better article:

<http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4510/125/>

------
tsally
To: The profit mongering companies with lobbyists and idiotic politicians who
cause legislation like this to be created.

We'd like our internet back now.

Sincerely,

The Compter Scientists, the group of people who invented the internet.

~~~
pg
The problem is not companies that are "profit mongering" (whatever that
means). It's companies with obsolete business models that are willing to
destroy the more dynamic parts of the economy in their fall.

~~~
amichail
But won't much stronger copyright enforcement allow these companies to
survive?

~~~
pg
History doesn't offer much encouragement. New technology is often opposed by
existing interests that are threatened by it, but I can't think of a lot of
examples where they've succeeded in holding it back for a significant time.

~~~
billswift
Japan retreated from the gun (and the outside world) for several centuries.
Without an outside world to break in, they might still be there.

~~~
johnaspden
And China put the brakes on _all_ innovation.

~~~
eru
Much of Europe shies away from a lot of genetic manipulation.

------
olefoo
The mechanism is wide open for abuse. If this regime comes to pass, I would
expect different groups to be issuing bogus takedown notices against
competitors...

Imagine if PETA activists started nailing the public IP's of meatpacking
companies with allegations of copyright infringement...

or imagine that you're in the middle of a complex court fight and your law
firm, and most of your lawyers home and mobile ips are shut down in a
coordinated attack...

~~~
derwiki
I had a conversation similar to this topic with a friend this weekend, but
about net neutrality. I contended that certain restrictions put on the
internet would be so obtuse that there is no way they could be enforced --
this seems like one of them.

I'm not sure PETA would do that, because they're a legitimate organization
that could have action taken against them. But that's an interesting point: if
every IP address was reported, how do they enforce or verify it?

Personally, they can pry my internet from my cold dead hands.

~~~
regularfry
PETA may be a legitimate organisation, but the people involved may well have
friends who perform actions which, while it is _obviously_ impossible to
condone them, your honour, do support their cause.

------
gruseom
Cory Doctorow, Michael Geist, and the EFF are three pretty credible sources.
Nevertheless, something doesn't feel right about this. My guess is someone's
leaking a draft or a proposal in an attempt to influence the negotiations,
probably someone who knew it would kick up a shitstorm. As well it should.

I'll go out on a limb and predict nothing much comes of this.

Edit: after reading more about it, I learned that ACTA is a treaty process
that's been going on for years. It's hard to see how something this draconian
ever gets ratified in all these countries.

~~~
forensic
This.

I don't know who is running the show but obviously this leak has ulterior
motives of some kind. The elites are always planning further lock down on
their slave populations, it's really just a question of whether the public is
sufficiently conditioned to accept it at some particular moment.

------
ericwaller
_ISPs have to cut off the Internet access of accused copyright infringers or
face liability._

DMCA is the new DOS

------
ErrantX
As I read it this is no longer about Copyright any more; it is about certain
government positioning themselves, their lawmakers and their major companies
into a situation where they wish to control the internet.

This is a bad thing.

I am a supporter, generally, of the idea of copyright (it needs a review,
sure) but this is just silly...

------
btilly
Thank Biden for this.

Seriously, he has been a long time friend of the content industries. Ever
since he was nominated I've been looking for something like this to happen.

~~~
regularfry
ACTA has been in negotiation for _years_. This is nothing new.

~~~
roc
It's been through six rounds of negotiation (a few days each round) across two
years. Not really twisting in bureaucratic hell, the way your emphasis on
'years' paints it.

And the fact that all these insane provisions have _survived_ five previous
rounds of negotiation certainly shouldn't provide any comfort.

------
jacoblyles
I could imagine this coming from any administration and any congress in my
lifetime. Very little has changed no matter how often the parties swapped, and
no matter how pretty the speeches were. The content industries continue to be
powerful lobbyists, to our detriment.

We are constantly relearning the lesson: don't trust politicians. Democracy is
a machine for serving concentrated interests at the expense of the general
well-being

Hopefully our champions will stop this. However, there will be no idealistic
debate behind the scenes on the topic of what constitutes the public
interests. There will only be politicians silently weighing what is in their
own personal interest. As it always has been, and as it always will be.

------
jrwoodruff
I'm a little late to the party here, but a lot of people are obviously angry
about this. Skimming the comments, it looks like a lot of 'end-of-the-
internet' speculation.

Not if we can help it. If you're in the U.S., please write your
representatives and let them know how dangerous this is. This is still a
country ruled by its people, for its people. Even if this is a hoax, it will
let your elected officials know copyright law is a serious issue in their
district, and hopefully treat it as such.

Find out who your reps and senators are at this link, and write!
<http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml>

------
nzmsv
Well, sooner or later the Internet will go the way of radio and TV: megacorps
only. Once there's a critical mass of people using a medium who don't really
care about it, and just consume what's available, it is only a matter of time.

The question is, what comes next. Maybe it's mesh networks, maybe private
satellites, maybe something else entirely. Of course, the new network will
initially be slow, and for geeks only. Then there will be explosive growth.
Then it will be regulated into oblivion. And the cycle will repeat itself.

------
yason
I see this as a perfectly logical next step: the demands eventually grow
outrageous enough that it's all just begging for a huge backfire.

The potential difference between the old fashioned copyright business and the
new wave is growing. In order to keep things balanced as the new wave is
gaining more energy the old business must expend an equal amount of energy to
compensate for this change.

That's why when old structures are breaking they first resist until the last
straw, and then come down collapsing.

------
DanielBMarkham
I am dubious that such language will appear in any kind of treaty in the
future.

I'm not calling BoingBoing a liar, but I find it hard to believe that the U.S.
is going to pass laws or engage in treaties that destroy some of its greatest
companies. Either these provisions are misunderstood, they are proposed
amendments that nobody thinks will be in the final language, or they are
interpretations by folks looking to sabotage the negotiations. If I had to
guess I'd say the latter, but that's just intuition.

My call based on one article? Flame bait for nerds.

Show me some more sources and we'll see if this develops into something worthy
of all the yelling and shouting.

Even if this is true -- multi-source, people. It's much too easy for "leaks"
to be more manipulative in nature when the internet is one big echo chamber.

------
yread
I think it's enough of a reason to build community networks. You are just
connected to friends over wifi and they are connected to some other friends.
As long as it stays distributed enough that would be ok.

------
marze
You have to expect it will be bad if they won't even say what is in it because
doing so would "threaten national security".

They must think everyone is an idiot if they will believe that.

~~~
nazgulnarsil
they'd be right to think that.

------
tdonia
so, i'm curious, what are the best arguments for this?

the reason i ask is that it seems like the rules, as they currently exist, are
valid on paper but illegitimate in practice. is it really worth it to extend
the illusion of copyright protection to the rest of the planet knowing full
well that it's got little hope of succeeding? or is there a way to argue that
the system, as it works in the U.S. is a success?

~~~
tumult
Whenever you see legislation that is massively in opposition of common sense
and the well-being of a people, just think to yourself, _jacuzzi full of
money_.

~~~
johnaspden
OK, to rephrase the question, what will the people accepting the jacuzzis full
of money use as arguments?

~~~
tumult
"Sorry, can't hear you, busy soaking in my _jacuzzi full of money_."

------
CulturalNgineer
This is hopefully some huge hoax. But if it isn't it should (and deserves to)
create and real worldwide firestorm.

This cannot stand and they can't possibly be stupid enough to try to make it
stand!

But beware their "fallback" positions! And the devil is in the details. They
may just feel that by putting out such an outrageous proposal they can fall
back to a merely disgusting and slimy one.

------
albemuth
I wonder what happens if the 'infringement' occurs over an open wifi network,
how can one be made accountable if anyone can use your connection? Even if
they enforced it by a hardware fingerprint or something, laptops can be
stolen, and who the hell is going to enforce no open wifi networks!? The
outrage!

------
petercooper
_That ISPs have to proactively police copyright on user-contributed material.
This means that it will be impossible to run a service like Flickr or YouTube
or Blogger_

Is there a confusion between an ISP and a Web site here? I've never heard the
term "ISP" applied to companies that just run Web sites.

------
chrischen
How do they expect to make other countries adopt US-style takedown rules?

------
Shamiq
I think the time is ripe for some creative destruction.

------
raquo
I hope this will be on major news channels ASAP.

------
chaosprophet
Okay, this one reeks of Classic American Arrogance (as in on the part of the
Government). You guys can enforce whatever stupid policy you want within your
country, but what makes you think you can get all other countries to join with
you???

I hardly think you will be able to convince 10 countries to sign that treaty.

~~~
pwmanagerdied
You obviously haven't been paying attention, then. Internationally there is a
ton of support among governments and industries for measures like this to be
taken; the general lack of support among the public hasn't been very relevant.

~~~
chaosprophet
Yeah, I wasn't reading fully. Frankly I'm stunned that there is this much
support, even from Asian countries, whom I thought would not like adopting
something as restrictive as this.

------
tocomment
Maybe vote it up on Reddit[1], that might spread some awareness, or submit it
to Slashdot.

[1]
[http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/a0nnp/secret_cop...](http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/a0nnp/secret_copyright_treaty_leaks_its_bad_very_bad/)

~~~
Splines
This post has more momentum and is getting more attention.

[http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/a0o98/obama_admini...](http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/a0o98/obama_administrations_suicide_pact_revealed_a/)

~~~
stse
Stupid title, as ACTA predates the Obama administration.

------
tybris
This seems like speculation. Also, completely out-of-line with Obama's support
of net neutrality and a poorly timed economic disaster.

------
lucifer
Lets organize a network strike: Drop all net activity (specially e-commerce)
for a day to send a message that we all have a say in this matter.

------
chunkyslink
fuck the US Government ! Screwing it up for the rest of us again.

thanks very much

------
eugenejen
I can't help to start a facebook group "Stop Obama Administration to destroy
Internet". I see there are a lot of ACTA related groups already formed. All
groups should join together if the content is confirmed.

