
Ask HN: How do I leave a startup on philosophical grounds? - ZephyrP
(I want to apologize for the length of the text below, if I had more time I would have made it shorter)<p>I have been working for a startup here in beautiful San Francisco for a little while now as a programmer and mathematician, I was drawn to the startup because I thought the idea was valuable and wanted to be a part of something that was going to impact a lot of people's lives, in addition, one of the founders has a considerable social media presence that I thought would be able to bring us to new heights. I was also the first technical hire and was excited to be applying a lot of statistics and machine learning theory to my job as well as shaping the technical future of the company. Only one catch - I would be paid nothing until the company went through Round A financing, which was said at the time I was brought on to be closing, at the latest, the first week of October.<p>I started out by working on an machine learning algorithm for automatically parsing and constructing tweets, under the guise that we would be targeting people who were obviously interested in the services our startup offered. Using a structured learning approach (and thorough application of k-means :), the accuracy and ability of the program to mass-message interested parties grew exponentially, I noticed potential for abuse, and I talked to a casual friend at twitter to verify this was OK - indeed it was as long as it didn't get out of hand, ever confident in my ability to 'keep things from getting out of hand'. As time grew on, the CEO of the company pressured me into using it to the ends of spamming people and (effictively) asking me get around twitter's spam detection algorithms and in general make twitter a worse place to be. I voiced objections and the CEO of the company basically told me I was naive and that everyone in the space was doing this.<p>As time went on, the work environment became more stressful, despite the fact that I had only committed to evenings 3 days a week, I came in a few extra times during the past weeks in order to meet some deadlines for the site. When I took a day off (In reality, not a day off, it was a day I was slated to <i>have</i> off), the CEO of the company was very upset with me because I had given her 'the impression' that I would be working all the time from there on out.<p>I should also reiterate at this point that I'm the only technical employee, but not the only employee. We have a 'community manager', 'Product Manager', 'CFO' and a number of writers. I should note that our startup has nothing to do with writing, and is actually in the social discovery space. I don't feel this is an optimum organization for a company, but I haven't said anything about it.<p>One night, the CEO and CFO of the company wanted to make a Gantt chart of our progress, we went through various development scenarios (Rather, what various non-programmer's impression of how development works scenarios), and I was continually asked how long certain events ranging from how long it would take to "warm up" our MCMC algorithm in the site's recommendation engine to how long certain programming tasks would take. Unfortunately I didn't have a whole lot of solid data at the time, so I told them the only thing I knew - "I'm sorry, I don't have a way of making a good estimate". After two or three times, the CEO was visibly irritated that I couldn't tell how long it would take and we decided to break.<p>The next day the CEO brought me into a conference room and told me I was being uncooperative, I was a little taken aback by this but I asked her to explain. She was concerned that I wasn't working full-time (I've deceived the reader a bit here, because full-time implies you're being paid), even though I had worked just one week full-time, out of the kindness of my heart in order to meet deadlines. She continued to explain that my philosophical objections to some things that were happening in the company were only slowing us down and weren't productive, as well as the fact that "As an engineer, you know how to do math and computers, on't tell me how to do my job", this tidbit referenced a suggestion that our site's "metrics" that were being reported to me were flawed, and that I could prove it with statistics, unfortunately my argument based on principle component analysis and cross validation fell on deaf ears (I'll let you guess who was right, a Berkeley design graduate or Thomas Bayes).<p>After this, I felt it was imperative that I look for a new position, but to be frank I'm a little bit intimidated by interviewing processes, as well I'm very young without a university degree. I hack on NoSQL database internals for my open source project (A granular riak derivative) and am very active in Machine Learning research and have authored a number of scripts, tools and speak at some ML meetups in the area. Despite all of this, I'm somewhat embarrassed to say I'm intimidated of interviewing at startups, so I resigned myself to my fate and slogged on with the hopes that it would get better or maybe the funding would come through someday.<p>Our prior site was designed and coded by an Indian firm, and it soon became clear I would redo all of it. I was excited by the opportunity to do some 'real work' rather than running a marketing shell game, and despite an extremely aggressive timeline, I was and am working night and day to get it out the door.<p>Later down the line, things changed, a few people were reading some pull requests I had made on Github and contacted me about beginning work immediately on a recommendation engine. In addition, a startup I had done contract work for when I first moved to SF (They had just lost their entire Rails team and were already in deep trouble with investors at the time) was able to secure funding based on the product I wrote for them, the CEO saw me in the hallways and insisted to take me out to lunch, and said "<i></i><i></i>*, we are incredibly impressed with your programming ability, we couldn't have launched our startup without you, you are literally our godsend" and proceeded to give me 1k out of thanks for my effort and extended a more permanent offer to me. I know thats not the dolla dolla bills that we're all searching for, but in my situation it made a huge difference and indicates to me that there is a great disparity in the compassion of people involved in startups.<p>So here I find myself, working extremely hard, all weekend, all last week, and the week before that on this project. I'm blowing off people who are trying to pay me good money and people who I really enjoy speaking with so I can work on this project for which I'm likely to see nothing. It's really my own insecurities about being seen as someone who just backs out. Now I'm sitting in the darkness of my office working on new feature requests as the pour in, about 10 of them came in on pivotal yesterday, they are all "supposed" to be done tomorrow, so that the CEO can show off the product.<p>So I'm thinking about quitting (Can you quit a job you don't get paid for?), and theres where it gets tricky.<p>The CEO has a considerable social media following and is a good networker (Which is why I came to work for her in the first place), she's a nice lady and I'm on great terms with everyone I work with. However, I am the only engineer and I don't know if she really has a whole lot of options outside of me, my departure may be relatively devastating to the startup and the fine people that work there at this stage and would be almost entirely without warning, I'm trying to finish up the product she wanted just so she can have SOMETHING to work with and not just be left out in the e-cold but I'm concerned that leaving the company at this point will forever put the mark of the beast upon my forehead. In addition, the company I worked for previously is in the same incubator and it would be really awkward if I left. On top of all of this, I want to let the CEO know that I'm leaving not because I'm not passionate about the product (I am), not because I don't like the people or her, or even the money -- but because frankly this is not an appropriate way to treat an employee and that its not right to act with condescension because someone is younger than you or is "An engineer", instilling these finer philosophical points is assured to only inflame her temper I'm sure.<p>I've never asked for e-help before, so I implore you for your advice Hacker News, what's a young man like me to do in this situation? Are you hiring?
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jackowayed
You need to get out. "Are you hiring?" _Everyone_ is hiring. Especially in SF.
You have absolutely no reason to stay at a "job" that isn't both compensating
you extremely well _and_ respecting you, and this one is doing neither.

And don't worry about dooming the company. You owe them absolutely nothing.
Zero. Well, negative, since they owe you a lot. If the company thinks it can
get by with a single unpaid engineer, they're not going very far anyway, and
this will be a good wake-up call that they need to re-evaluate their
priorities.

If you really can't keep yourself from feeling bad about leaving them, offer
to work for market rate (something like $100/hour as a consultant) for a
little while so you can finish up the product and give them some time to find
someone else, but don't work another day for them without knowing that you'll
be immediately compensated. And set a hard deadline, like 30 days, for when
you're out of there, because you shouldn't stay anywhere that doesn't respect
you for too long even if they are paying you.

And yes, technical interviews around here are pretty tough, but the only way
to see if you can make it through is to try a few. It sounds like you're smart
enough to do very well at them.

Shameless plug time: I interned at Cloudera this summer. I had a great time
and learned a ton. The people there are extremely smart. A huge proportion of
the company are engineers, and pretty much all of the management is highly
technical. They'd be very interested in talking to someone who hacks on NoSQL
databases and is active in ML research. I could see you on the platform team,
contributing to HBase and/or Mahout, and there are some Data Science and
Solution Architect roles that could involve your ML experience.

Here's the careers page: <http://www.cloudera.com/company/careers/>

------
epc
ob. disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, if you want legal
advice you should contact a labor attorney in San Francisco.

Line up a paying gig, get it confirmed in writing (heck, start if you can
since you're working on this "part time") and then resign. Do not get into it
with the CEO over appropriateness of treating an employee or the product.
Really, truly, do not do this. Do not give the CEO any room to argue with you,
or to make a case against you.

Just resign: you found a paying gig. You don't owe them any more explanation
than that.

Document everything. Do not sign any termination agreements, you're not an
employee and I assume you didn't sign a contract. If you signed an NDA then
verbally agree to abide by the NDA for a fixed period of time (make sure you
have a printed copy of the NDA stashed away somewhere).

Now, if you did sign a contract or employment agreement, then honestly the
first thing you should do tomorrow is find a labor attorney and get some legal
advice. This will cost money. This will cost less money than either the pain
of continuing at this organization, or the potential litigation.

------
sbierwagen
You're not being paid a salary... but you don't have equity?

Get out now. It's a deathtrap.

~~~
ZephyrP
That sums it up.

~~~
lazyjeff
I'm just curious -- why would you agree to "work" at a startup that is not
compensating you? Not even vesting equity?

My feeling is the reason they don't have any other engineers is because they
couldn't sucker anyone else into this...

~~~
ZephyrP
I'm really passionate about the idea and the technology (that could be behind
this), and apparently I'm young and dumb. Basically.

------
gojomo
Leave as soon as possible. You don't like it. You could easily be employed
elsewhere you would like.

It also sounds like an unhealthy situation: imbalanced team, sketchy uncertain
compensation (cash/equity), low respect, nothing to help you with where you
need to grow (which includes both technical peers and having the confidence to
interview elsewhere).

No point in trying to rush something to 'complete' and only then leave.
Software is never done. They'll need to get more engineers in any case, those
new engineers should do it the way they'll need to.

Respect anything you've signed so far; don't sign anything new; don't directly
compete or take anything you wrote for the current unpaid project with you.

Though you say the CEO is nice, it also sounds like you're being a little
bullied, and expect to get more 'temper' from people when you leave. Brush it
off; it's their situation and emotional reactions, not an objective analysis
of things. Don't get into a long discussion, don't accept a 'counter-offer' or
promise of change. Go elsewhere definitively.

------
YuriNiyazov
Tons of people are hiring, and anyone that said "you only know computers, so
don't tell me how to do my job" is not "a nice lady".

However, your CEO is correct in that you are absolutely, incredibly naive.

You are being taken advantage of, and are being naive by staying. You are also
being naive by thinking that your lack of a university degree is an
impediment. Gates, Jobs, Zuck were all dropouts.

~~~
ZephyrP
Thank you for your frankness Yuri, I'll take this into consideration.

~~~
edouard1234567
Page & Yang were dropouts too and the list goes on and on... There is
something I don't understand in your story. There seem to be a couple of
employees and you seem to be the only developer... Did this lady found a way
to hire a team without paying anybody or are you the only one? Pay "cuts"
usually come with a lager equity grant... very simple equation : share the
risk, share the benefit. In your situation it doesn't really matter at this
point. The main reason you should leave is the CEO... She seems clueless
(based on your description) especially when she says you're naive and "that
everybody does it" (spamming twitter) and that's why you guys should do it...
If everybody "does it" and it annoys users then it's exactly the reason not to
do it. A successfull consumer startup is about doing something new, smart,
unexpectedly helpfull to users and surprisingly disruptive to the industry...
Spamming users is the naive approach! Lesson learned... The lesson here is
that the people you chose to work with are more important then the ideas you
will possibly work on... I'm working on a recommendation engine too, I'd love
to chat with you...

~~~
ZephyrP
I'm not sure, I have never asked anyone else about their compensation or
explained mine, I've always heard that is impolite to do at a company.

However, I do always enjoy talking about technology, if you have any questions
you'd like to run by me I'm more than happy to chat!

------
mekoka
It's during situations like these that I wish the votes could be displayed in
HN, just so that you would get a feel of how opinions weigh. There are many
answers that I'd vote up in here, but that doesn't convey to you the strength
of the message. So we have to resort to reiterating it:

\- You're saying the CEO doesn't share your moral objections and even derides
them. Did it cross your mind that maybe she's the type who also wouldn't mind
tricking someone to work for her for free? Sounds to me like you're probably
being taken advantage of, so get out. Once out, stay out. There isn't much to
advocate for, in a relationship that starts with one party taking advantage of
another.

\- don't sweat your lack of diploma.

\- I haven't made a cv in a while, but I'd advise you to meet with someone
that could help you refine yours and prepare for interviews.

\- try to get an idea of what you would be worth in the current market. I've
seen a few posts on HN and some Stack Exchange sites discussing the topic. I
believe you're capable of digging up that information, or maybe someone would
be kind enough to post some links. That sort of info isn't pinpoint accurate,
but having even ballpark numbers is always comforting when making demands and
in your case, I feel that you could use the reassurance.

------
Mz
_The CEO has a considerable social media following and is a good networker
(Which is why I came to work for her in the first place), she's a nice
lady..._

Honestly, she doesn't sound very nice. She sounds like the kind of person with
good social skills of the sort that allow her to take advantage of people by,
say, bullying them into working for free and then putting them in the position
that they would feel enormously guilty if they left because they are the only
engineer. For people who are very socially astute and also in a position of
power, such situations are often planned, not mere coincidence.

I suggest you find a means to deal with your personal weaknesses in terms of
not feeling comfortable interviewing and what not.

~~~
orangecat
100% this. The term "sociopath" comes to mind. Even if you didn't have any job
prospects, you should get out. Since you do, it's an absolute no-brainer. No
two weeks notice either; the most I'd do is make sure somebody has access to
the source.

------
zrgiu_
Be upfront with your current CEO. Tell her that you've received an offer that
pays good money, and you'd be working with people you already know and get
along with very well, so you would be a great fit in that team. Try not to
burn bridges though.

Oh, and if you're going with the job offer you got (and you should), don't
offer to "help out" for the current job a few hours a week. They'll still have
expectations from you to work more than you can.

------
dieselz
There are a ton of jobs that will respect what you can bring to the company.
You should be properly compensated for the value you bring, and handsomely if
the company is pre-revenue (more risky = more equity). Email your resume (or
link to a portfolio site) to dieselzthrowaway@gmail.com - I know of a company
that may be interested.

------
il
Can you put an email address in your HN profile or in a comment here? I'm sure
there are lots of great startups that can treat you much better and are
interested in talking to you.

~~~
ZephyrP
It is done my good sir!

------
ycapply2011
Don't burn bridges - be polite, give at least two weeks' notice, don't get
into arguments. Smile, thank them for the learning opportunity and wish them
all the best.

~~~
orangecat
_give at least two weeks' notice_

There's no reason to work a single minute more for free for these people.

~~~
mltsy
I would at least give them an honest, non-emotional resignation letter, so
they know what the cause is, and whatever notice you want to make it.
Considering they're not paying you, 2 weeks is probably not fair, but at least
a day or two, whatever you think is fair. And then leave.

This may be beyond the scope of "business," but I agree with the don't burn
bridges comments. It is your responsibility to get yourself out of a bad
situation as soon as you can, but as long as you have the power to do it
gracefully, and with respect, that's the right thing to do - or rather, it
will bring you good karma ;)

