

Last Psychiatrist rebuttal to "why parents hate parenting" - delackner
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/07/why_parents_hate_parenting.html

======
delackner
Wouldn't normally post this, but the original article appeared on HN recently
as well, and I think this rebuttal has some really good insights on adjusting
our thought processes and expectations.

~~~
andreyf
I would have posted it if I thought there was one other who read thelastpsych
:)

Seriously, I highly recommend the rest of his posts (if you can forgive the
ads and site layout).

~~~
delackner
Discovered it today from a previous thread on HN, and was immediately sucked
in to reading nonstop.

Our minds are the most important program we have any control over modifying,
even if the interface is pretty bizarre.

------
leftnode
This is good advice. In the words of the great George Carlin: "You want to
know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." (See:
<http://harmful.cat-v.org/society/children/fuck_the_children>)

Or another good article on the subject of leaving your kids alone:
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/familyadvice/3355719/Idle-...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/familyadvice/3355719/Idle-
parenting-means-happy-children.html)

It's great advice.

~~~
scotty79
> Kids don't smoke because a camel in sunglasses tells them to. They smoke for
> the same reasons adults do, because it's an enjoyable activity that relieves
> anxiety and depression.

He totally lost me here.

~~~
neutronicus
That is almost word-for-word why my sister told me that she started smoking at
age 20.

~~~
GrandMasterBirt
Kids mimic you. You smoke, guess what your kids will think (the same thing I
thought) "wow, everyone seems to be enjoying it, I wonder what the fuss is
about".

With my sister, I grew up telling her about what smoking feels like and the
addiction. Guess why she does not smoke... Its not a big curiosity anymore for
her, she just knows nothing good will come of it. She also tried
(unsuccessfully) to get my mom to quit smoking. She understand addiction and
why its bad to start.

Once you realize just how much they mimic its incredible the things you can
realize. When I saw my daughter standing idly doing the same little motions
with her feet as I do when I stand Idly, I realized: Nothing too little will
go unnoticed with the child, the child will pick up on everything I do and
thus if I want her not to do it, I must MODEL the right way for her.

~~~
neutronicus
Neither I nor my parents smoke. My sister says that her peer group doesn't
smoke and that, when she first started, she hid it from them. It was something
she did by and for herself to cope with the anxiety of exams at college.

She was anxious and depressed, and cigarettes helped.

Just presenting a data point in favor of the assertion that the great-
grandparent post dismissed.

------
flybrand
Is this just an example of how 'big media' is often held to lower standards
than a blogger?

Blog posts are often labeled as flame-baiting or simply trying to promote self
interest (eg - articles that knock 37signals / Calacanis / Apple fan boys,
etc.).

The original article was pretty shallow; Jennifer Senior, the author, followed
the conventional Gladwell-style of anecdote and insight mixed with research.
TLP's dismantling of the original New Yorker article isn't as rough as it
could have been.

The original article got attention, was up-voted here and elsewhere, in many
ways because of the provocative title, which wasn't well supported in the
article. Thankfully, someone has pointed this out. Had this article been on
LISP, geo-location, web2 business models, this community could have done it on
its own, but here having someone who is a relative expert (assumed to be the
case given TLP's title) was needed.

[Side note - I am the father of two kids under age 4 and my wife has a
master's degree in education and teaches. I disliked the original article.]

------
bajsejohannes
I only recently realized* and internalized the fact that I don't need to have
children. The social pressure to do it is enormous, even if it is not
explicit. This article is yet another data point that it is not a good idea to
have kids unless you actually want to.

* Through this wonderfully thought-provoking site: <http://vhemt.org/> . Highly recommended read.

~~~
qjz
The pressure to have children is biological. If you could measure it, there is
arguably more social pressure NOT to have children than otherwise.

~~~
telemachos
How about this? The biological pressure is _to have sex_ , and only indirectly
to have children. The only _direct_ pressure to have children (as such) is
social (people asking about grandchildren, cultural values, tax rates, etc.).
I'm not sure if I believe this, but I do want to distinguish the target of the
biological drive versus the social pushing.

On the other side, why do you think there is more social pressure not to have
children? As a (childless) married male in his 40s, I can say I've experienced
a _ton_ of social pressure to have children and zero pressure not to. I grant
that this is anecdotal, but I'm not sure what you're basing your statement on
- no evidence comes to mind.

~~~
qjz
The biological imperative is to procreate. I don't want to split hairs and
separate the mechanism from the goal. It's true there is plenty of social
pressure to have sex or to be more sexually appealing, short of achieving the
goal to have offspring. It doesn't matter. Remove the social pressure and
people will continue to have children. It's not like they're going to forget
how. Biology will take over.

I think there's overwhelming evidence for the social pressure to NOT have
children. China's one-child policy comes to mind, along with the trend for
certain categories of women in developed countries who are delaying childbirth
until long after they become fertile. The contraception industry alone is
enough evidence, and I'd be willing to bet that most abortions are a result of
social pressure than medical necessity.

Both types of social pressure exist, I'm just under the impression that more
people are actively discouraged from having children than otherwise. Neither
trump the biological imperative we feel, consciously or unconsciously, as
sexual organisms to reproduce.

~~~
telemachos
I understand that you don't want to split hairs, and I don't want to split
them merely to be difficult (or pick nits). Nevertheless, I'm not entirely
convinced that we can avoid the distinction between the desires for sex and
for children. I remain unconvinced that the _driving_ desire is for children
(or procreation, as you put it now). My argument, in a nutshell, is that we
can see that the desire for sex is primary and paramount by observing human
behavior. The desire for sex precedes, outlasts, contravenes and cuts across
the desire for children.

Beyond that, I don't think contraception is necessarily evidence for pressure
to not have children, so much as evidence for a desire to control when and how
many children to have. Certainly some people use contraception to avoid all
children, but surely many more people use it in an effort not to have over
large familes, no? As evidence for this (partial, because there are other
factors like fear and permanence) consider that most people choose less
reliable one-off contraception rather than a vasectomy or tubal ligation, even
when both are readily available. China is one country, and in this regard
somewhat exceptional.

------
balding_n_tired
Kind of fish in a barrel stuff, but the markmanship is fine at that range.

------
scotty79
> Because, you know, no Scandinavian women ever kill themselves at double the
> rate of Americans.

Is that true? All women or only mothers? This would be a strange bias. General
suicide rates are not that much different?

~~~
Tichy
One aspect is that in Scandinavia winters are very long.

~~~
scotty79
That was my first thought but I checked suicide rates by country and they are
not much different between Sweden, Canada and US.

Now I noticed that there's list of suicide rates by country and gender here
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rates>

There seems to be higher rate of suicides in females in northern countries but
they are much less likely to commit suicide than males.

Suicides in males seem to be correlated more with economic situation that
latitude.

Assumption made in article that suicide rates are correlated with how much
child care is provided by the state seems unfounded.

~~~
furyg3
> Assumption made in article that suicide rates are correlated with how much
> child care is provided by the state seems unfounded.

I don't think that that was the assumption made in the article. The original
NY article made some vague claims about scandinavian women being happier and
that being somehow tied to childcare... which was not thought out or supported
in any way. The author of the rebuttal article used the suicide rates to show
that other conclusions could easily be made about the happiness of
scandinavian women.

~~~
scotty79
Lack of support for this claim in that NY article is not proof for it's
falseness.

Author in his rebuttal also did not show that suicide rates of women correlate
with their happiness nor that their average happiness of all woman in the
country has anything to do with amount of child care provided free if charge.
I think it's far worse because he claims that more people help you with your
burdens the less happy you are which seems paradoxical and tries to found this
claim with suicide rates which seem to have some apparent correlation with how
much sunlight individuals get.

I personally know young mother who gives her 3 year old daughter all her awake
time and I find it hard to believe how she could not benefit from easing up
getting child care for her. 24 hours in a day is for one person just barely
enough to take care of the kid. You need other peoples help and I don't see
how making it easier could lead to lower happiness let alone increasing
suicide rates.

------
GrandMasterBirt
Ok heres my response to the 8yo watching a movie and the mother wanting the
child to go do homework.

Parents NEED to understand the difference in age. Don't YOU hate it when you
have to stop watching a movie you are interested in mid-way and do something
you don't want to. Well a child has a harder time coping. Imagine your mother
walks in on you fucking your girlfriend, and says in a pleasant voice (she
ain't being a bitch) "honey, please get out of her and wash the dishes".
Imagine the response you will have. Now imagine the request "honey, I know I'm
heavily intruding but you haven't done the dishes in 3 days and I am hungry,
so finish up in 15 minutes and wash the damn dishes!" I assure you the second
scenario will make YOU feel responsible for the fact that this shit happened,
maybe even embarrassed. But the message is VERY different. There was no
painless way to get into the situation but it was as painless as possible
given the circumstances and the blame now lies in the appropriate party.

You need to alert the child that "homework is coming" give em a few minutes to
cope, make sure they understand they have a few minutes and let that brain
work at the coping, it just takes time. Be consistent with it. Also important
to let the child know why it's their fault they have to stop, if the child did
the homework first the child would have the ability to watch the movie without
interruption. (make sure to not go back on your word, because that will not
help later on). Now if the movie is on disk, let the child know you can pause
and resume later, if not, hell 5 bucks to download the movie and let your kid
watch it is worth it.

With children every potential conflict can be turned into a learning
experience one way or another. The problem is the going up to a child "turn of
the tv and do homework". To a child that might be too sudden and too intense
to immediately cope with.

I am 26 years old and already me and my wife noticed these little things. Most
the conflicts with my 3.5year old is avoided. AND she does what we want her to
do. Sometimes we turn chores into a game, sometimes we turn something she
dreads into something "fun" because we join her. Also PICK YOUR CONFLICTS.
Believe it or not, the child will want to do things differently than you do.
Sometimes the way the kid wants to do it is alright, so let them have their
way. The child NEEDS to feel some control over their life, give them
inconsequential choices "red or blue shirt" fine it does not match, who cares.

You will have to dedicate yourself to the kids, but thats what parenting is
about.

~~~
jules
> Also PICK YOUR CONFLICTS. Believe it or not, the child will want to do
> things differently than you do. Sometimes the way the kid wants to do it is
> alright, so let them have their way. The child NEEDS to feel some control
> over their life, give them inconsequential choices "red or blue shirt" fine
> it does not match, who cares.

This is very important. I don't have kids but I have been one. When I see
parents micro managing their kids I feel sorry for them. Let your kids explore
and decide and learn. Make "yes" the default answer.

~~~
darnton
Absolutely. Let your kids make mistakes. Let them do things wrong. Let them
make odd decisions.

The best thing you can do for your children is help them to become good
decision makers and the best way to do that is to let them make lots of
decisions.

You can still make your values known and prevent damage and injury but let
them do as much as possible and learn what works.

A great introduction to this type of thinking is Unconditional Parenting by
Alfie Kohn.

