
Agoge - simonebrunozzi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoge
======
dreen
The ACOUP blog (which comes up on HN sometimes) has a great series on Sparta
where Agoge is discussed in detail

[https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-
sparta-p...](https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-
i-spartan-school/)

It was a very eye-opening read, definitely at odds with the popular image of
Sparta.

In short about Agoge, he says it was much less about training and more about
child indoctrination through extreme trauma. He compares it to child soldier
programs like the one by Lords Resistance Army in Africa. Rather than
producing skilled soldiers, he argues, it produced broken dysfunctional
people.

~~~
hirundo
Given spartan relative military dominance in that era, it did produce skilled
soldiers. But it's quite possible that the skills required to function well in
a shield wall are compatible with being broken and dysfunctional otherwise.
That's a common modern trope, e.g., with Vietnam vets.

~~~
dreen
According to the article I quoted (specifically, part VI [1]), their military
dominance is a bit of a myth, and was more based on reputation even at the
time.

[1] [https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-
sparta-p...](https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-
vi-spartan-battle/)

------
ainar-g
Every time I read about something like that, I can't help but think about High
Theory Of Education in Strugatsky bros' fictional Noon Universe[1][2]. In that
universe all children are taught by professional mentors-teachers, one for
every group of 3–7 children, in what are essentially boarding schools. These
mentors go through a thirty-year rigorous training and a thorough
psychological screening, since they essentially decide the future of the
children they're educating, and thus the humanity and the universe.

[1] (in Russian)
[https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%8B%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA...](https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%8B%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noon_Universe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noon_Universe)

~~~
082349872349872
> _Главной задачей учителя является — обнаружить и развить в ребёнке его
> главный талант, то, что он умеет лучше многих_

This sentiment reminded me of the Pyongyang "Children's Palace":
[http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/2009/04/pyongyang-
metro...](http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/2009/04/pyongyang-metro-
childrens-palace-etc.html)

> "I asked whether children can choose what they want to do. The answer was,
> that there is a test, to find out about the talents of the children, and
> according to that the options, which they have, are decided."

Was this talent testing ("All Student Vocational Aptitude Battery"?) also the
practice at the russian Дворец пионеров?

(does the motto "научился сам — научи товарища" mean "learn yourself, teach
your friend"?)

~~~
ainar-g
I don't think I understand your first question, as I am unaware of any mottos
like that.

“ _Научился сам — научи товарища_ ” is probably closer to “After learning
[something yourself], teach [your] comrade!”. You generally should not
translate “ _товарищ_ ” as “friend”, as the former is something more formal.

~~~
082349872349872
Thanks for the correction[1]. The first question was about the High Theory of
Education, namely that the chief task of the educator is to find the child's
unique talent, what it can do better than most. Did Pioneer Palaces attempt
anything similar[2]?

[1] I guess friend would have been друг?

"Друг всегда с тобой / если ты бухой"

[2] as their DPRK equivalents seem to, via explicit testing?

~~~
ainar-g
The Pioneers were a youth organisation of the CPSU, so their officially stated
goal was making sure that the youth has the “correct” ideological upbringing.
But from a lot of people I've heard an opinion, that the actual purpose of the
organisation was to free up some time for the parents, heh. The Pioneers did
have a large network of what were essentially hobby clubs, where children
could learn new skill from older kids and counsellors, so they did help
children to pursue their interests and talents in a way. Besides that, as far
as I know, they weren't that different from Northamerican Boy/Girl Scout
organisations.

~~~
082349872349872
Sorry for the late reply, just ran across an illustrator who obviously fondly
remembers his Pioneer days: [https://raven-
yellow.livejournal.com/96620.html](https://raven-
yellow.livejournal.com/96620.html)

(the biggest difference between scouts and pioneers having been mixed groups?)

"Держи дистанцию" is now true again: it's just expanded to 2 metres.

------
tokai
While historically interesting I don't think there is one ounce of useful
wisdom in the Spartan education system that we can use to day. We can learn
from their propaganda though - still known as the greatest warriors ever, even
though they don't really have much to show for it.

~~~
Kednicma
The best lesson from Sparta is that fascism is ineffective. Secret police
don't suppress slave rebellions. Myths alone can run a society, but mostly
just run it into the ground. Legislators should be selected by the populace,
not appointed based on being an old angry man. Estate taxes are central to
preventing austerity.

Mostly, though, fascism is ineffective.

~~~
barry-cotter
Sparta was independent for over 500 years, and one of the most powerful cities
in the Hellenic world for most of that time. If the US is that ineffective it
will do very well and the US has the second longest run of unbroken self rule
among extant states behind the UKGB&NI, counting England as its progenitor.

There has been one successful slave revolt in recorded history and it wasn’t
in Sparta. Legislators can be selected any way that leads to state survival in
the end. Estate taxes have bugger all to do with austerity.

The Spartans aren’t pawns in our current political drama. They existed for
themselves not for us. A great deal in how they lived was odious but they were
no more fascist than they were Christian.

~~~
nsajko
The commenter you are replying to was probably referring to the Messenians,
which were Spartan helots for a long time, but not forever.

I don't really like your "one successful slave revolt" statement, because it
depends on the meaning of "successful" and "slave", so it seems interesting at
first, but it is not really possible to think or argue about it without
restating it in a clarified form first (even though there is some truth in the
statement). I suppose you were thinking about the Haitian Revolution?

------
adler0901
Barbarism.

~~~
astrobe_
Technically not correct, since both the Romans and the Greeks did that [1].
_Agoge_ is one of the too roots of the word _pedagogy_.

[1]
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/barbarian](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/barbarian)

