
Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censorship reaches new heights - tonyztan
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/12/04/apple-ceo-backs-chinas-vision-of-an-open-internet-as-censorship-reaches-new-heights/
======
EZ-E
Tim Cook wasn't invited for his beliefs, but to give face to the Chinese
government.

Chinese internet is as closed as it gets. Any foreign company eating up the
market share of a local company will get blocked eventually or be forced into
merging into a local entity.

For now it really is open in one way : Chinese companies are welcome to
compete in the whole world, but China won't let you be a competitor of the
local companies

Cook is "forced" into this monkey dance because he's deeply entrenched into
the Chinese market. He only has little leverage : the jobs he creates in China
and the money he makes there.

He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point
of view because lots of money is at stake. He can't say it in this conference

~~~
usaphp
> He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point
> of view because lots of money is at stake. He can't say it in this
> conference

Isn’t it the same reason why most of the corrupt people do what they do. There
is a lot of money on stake for them and they decide to close their eyes on the
corruption around them and actively participate in that vehicle.

Cook is doing exactly the same, he is putting money in front of his moral
principles.

If he is so vocal about freedom or whatever, he should take a stand and do
something at least in his own company, if his board or investors are
pressuring him - he should quit or do something about it, because right now -
whatever he says about fighting for freedom is just a complete farce.

~~~
emodendroket
If you're looking to public for-profit corporations to, of their own volition,
take some sort of ethical stand, you're going to be disappointed more often
than not.

~~~
brynjolf
So we shouldn't hold anyone accountable? Just give up?

Yesterday Hackernews talked about how Apple was just focused on making money
and they should ignore any moral implications, today we are supposed to feel
compassion and understanding for poor Tim Cook? It just sounds like everyone
has Apple as their idol and they can't do any wrong.

~~~
michaelt

      So we shouldn't hold anyone accountable? Just give up?
    

What's needed here is a coalition.

If N companies pulled out of China and it _didn 't_ liberalise, they've
incurred a cost for no benefit. If N+1 pulled out and it _did_ trigger China
to liberalise, they'd benefit from doing it.

The trick is finding the N+1 companies and convincing them they're enough to
be the trigger.

~~~
Chaebixi
> If N companies pulled out of China and it didn't liberalise, they've
> incurred a cost for no benefit. If N+1 pulled out and it did trigger China
> to liberalise, they'd benefit from doing it.

> The trick is finding the N+1 companies and convincing them they're enough to
> be the trigger.

It seems like China has been pretty successful at preventing the actual
dependence on foreign companies needed for that strategy to have its indented
effect. For instance, if Apple pulls out, Chinese who can afford an iPhone are
just going to have to settle for a Huawei.

The only chance I see is a general reduction in trade or foreign-driven
manufacturing hurting the overall Chinese economy, but that would take _a lot_
of companies to accomplish.

[https://9to5mac.com/2017/05/23/iphone-market-share-
gartner-q...](https://9to5mac.com/2017/05/23/iphone-market-share-
gartner-q1-2017/)

------
TXV
Tim Cook went there to get humiliated. Given what's at stake for his company,
I doubt he had alternatives. I guess that's what a CEO would do. However by
giving that speech he accomplished nothing but to confirm that he holds no
ground against his local competitors whatsoever, and the article correctly
points this out. China keeps laughing in the face of the West. The weakness
and passiveness of western "democracies" is astounding, but no wonder that
when you spend all your time to play internal politics there's little time
left to envision an international strategy.

I wonder what it'll take for Western governments to get their stuff together
and elaborate a response.

~~~
corey_moncure
>The weakness and passiveness of western "democracies" is astounding

It's frustrating for me too, but having spent a significant amount of time in
both China and the USA, I can say with absolute conviction, I'd still rather
live in the USA.

But consider this. The only reason we tolerate their shenanigans is that they
offer their unwashed masses to us as the 21st Century-equivalent of slave
labor. Look at what is happening to their lands, waters, and sky. There is no
doubt that China continues to be exploited, continues to remain in the
position it has always occupied in dealings with the west.

------
miles
The WP article links to a Bloomberg article[0] which boasts a more
straightforward headline:

 _Cook Kisses the Ring_

[0] [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-04/cook-
kiss...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-04/cook-kisses-the-
ring)

~~~
tootie
Savage. This is part of the reason I don't use Apple products unless I have
to.

~~~
theshrike79
What products do you use then? Chinese-made Android phones?

------
tr4cefl0w
“The theme of this conference — developing a digital economy for openness and
shared benefits — is a vision we at Apple share,” Cook said, in widely
reported remarks. “We are proud to have worked alongside many of our partners
in China to help build a community that will join a common future in
cyberspace.”

I don't even know how to react to his friendly remarks towards China. Is it to
keep the government happy and keep profiting from the Chinese market? That
would make sense. But sometimes I feel like he's become too friendly.

~~~
bhrgunatha
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow#Diplomacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow#Diplomacy)

------
thewhitetulip
I am from India and people always look at China and say "look at how that
country progressed". I always cringe at that statement. A country is not
judged by how well it treats it citizens during the fun times, it is during
the unrest that their treatment matters.

I'd rather prefer a cycle than the 400kmph trains Chinese have but I want the
freedom of speech I get in India. (of course 2014-current we don't have much
freedom of speech, but this is a democracy and will always stay a democracy.)

~~~
odiroot
Different countries different values. Most probably majority of Chinese people
care more about having a peaceful and prosperous life. At least this is what
my Chinese friends tell me.

They're also really happy to be able to own an iPhone. It's a huge status
symbol there. They couldn't care less about the "Western Internet". Baidu,
Weibo, Alibaba, Taobao etc. are more than enough in everyday life.

~~~
nicolas_t
What's interesting though is the huge change of opinion of people in the last
15 years. When I first came to China, everybody was optimistic, the future was
bright, everything would work out.

Now when I talk to people from the lower classes, they are bitter and tell me
that, yeah China progressed, but their life is worse. The gap has increased
between the rich and the poor and I don't think China is a great role model in
term of progress.

------
skc
People lap up Apple's PR about how altruistic they are especially in the US,
but then use the "but the shareholders" cop out with regards to anything to do
with China.

~~~
che_shirecat
Apple's tax evasion to the tune of billions has been going on for years, it's
a shame that their "Double Irish" evasion scheme revealed in the Paradise
Papers has flown relatively under the radar

------
margorczynski
I've always wondered why the western countries didn't take a much harder
stance on China's anti-competitive practices. Chinese economy might is
basically (or was) built with western capital (intelectuall also) and a lot of
it was stolen. Or they only saw short-term profits even though in the long run
it will bite them hard?

------
vfulco
You sold your soul Tim for the bottom line. Enough of the charade and just
admit it. No one believes you.

~~~
CaptSpify
The problem is that many people _do_ believe his bullshit.

------
freewizard
Yes, shame on Cook to kiss the ring, but Apple gets to bring its top notch
service and product to Chinese users, set the fine example of what brand,
quality, design and technology can achieve. What have Google achieved for
Chinese users by quitting China 7 yrs ago? Lack of competition brought new
height of profit to Baidu and continuous damage to users[1][2], I certainly
don't blame Sergey Brin for that[3], but nothing for Chinese users to cheer on
that either.

Innocent age of Internet has died. I don't think there a right answer for
Cook, but there're probably some worse answers, I'm grateful he did not take
those and people who I care about can still buy iPhones in China.

[1] [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-baidu/baidu-promotes-
fake...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-baidu/baidu-promotes-fake-drug-
sites-chinese-tv-station-idUSTRE66I1HK20100719)

[2] [http://www.businessinsider.com/baidu-being-investigated-
afte...](http://www.businessinsider.com/baidu-being-investigated-after-
student-dies-taking-experimental-cancer-drug-found-on-the-site-2016-5)

[3] [https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/interview-
sergey-b...](https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/interview-sergey-brin-
on-googles-china-gambit/)

~~~
jeswin
> What have Google achieved for Chinese users by quitting China 7 yrs ago?

They earned the respect of many people, who are used to continually seeing
corporations sell out their values for profits.

Getting out of potentially the biggest market in the world because of
incompatible values = courage. As opposed to removing a headphone jack from a
phone.

~~~
nikster
You could also say they have enabled the rise of Baidu and with it a Google
clone that is completely under the control of the Chinese government.

I do respect Google for pulling out - this was actually the last time Google
actually really tried to "don't be evil". Since then, they've thrown that
overboard. But that one time, they did it.

The problem is that the outcome was worse than remaining there. That was a
lack of wisdom on Google's part.

Apple could pull out, lose Billions of dollars and a hundred million users,
Chinese wouldn't be able to get their hands on iPhones, and Samsung, Meizu,
Huawei, and so on would be having a field day selling their government-
approved devices, which, in terms of privacy, are infinitely worse than
iPhones.

Apple is actually implementing some pretty serious privacy features, like end
to end encryption in iMessage and so on.

~~~
bad_user
You're presenting a false dichotomy.

Google would have lost to Baidu regardless and don't think for a second this
wasn't factored in their decision.

The Chinese are known for degrading the online experience of western services
in preference for local alternatives. This coupled with the fact that Baidu
really is _better_ for the Chinese market, just how Yandex has been better for
the Russian market.

> _Apple is actually implementing some pretty serious privacy features, like
> end to end encryption in iMessage and so on._

The end to end encryption in iMessage is shit because Apple is managing the
encryption keys and if your adversary is the Chinese government you'll get
fucked given Apple's newfound willingness to bend over.

~~~
cromwellian
Have you ever used Baidu? It's worse than Google even when searching for
Chinese. Baidu did a few things well: it was good for finding pirated content
and porn, but for actual research, it's horrible.

~~~
Infinitesimus
I don't think OP was saying Google would lose to Baidu because of quality, but
because the Chinese government has deep fingers in Baidu there's a very good
chance they will cripple Google's services in favor of Baidu's.

------
baxtr
Is amazon trying to hit Apple hard? This is the second critical article about
Apple on the same day. Where are the articles about amazon‘s practices?

------
thisisit
> Alongside Cook in endorsing China’s digital vision were officials from
> countries such as Saudi Arabia and Serbia, it noted.

Not the examples I want to use to show the "openness".

The interesting thing for me is we have to celebrate "open internet vision" in
2017. So, is China admitting they were not open in last couple of years?

------
r3pl4y
Apple is turning into the definition of the "big evil" that MS used to be 15
years ago

------
enitihas
It seems the world has come full circle. This seems to be a close analogue of
the Macartney
Embassy([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macartney_Embassy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macartney_Embassy))
that went to China in 1793. Except that now the kowtow has been replaced by
placating speeches.

------
dingo_bat
This is looking like the show Mr Robot when the UN passes a motion to allow
China to annex Congo. It's fucking preposterous.

~~~
50CNT
Wait, they're straight up annexing it in the show? That's ridiculous. Not like
they don't own it already though.

~~~
dingo_bat
Yeah it seemed utterly ridiculous in the show. But looking at Tim Cook sucking
it up like this publicly it doesn't seem so far off now.

------
patkai
The only solution is to own your company, otherwise an impersonal set of
shareholders own you. The IPO removes moral degrees of freedom. Everyone,
build SMEs!

------
tardygrad
I think any vision of an open and equal Internet is going to fail in the long
term, not only because it does not work in the interests of governements and
major corporations - but also because people don't want it.

China explicitly censors its Internet as a way of control, whereas in the west
news agencies implicitly censor news through selective reporting and giving
greater weight to stories that support the narrative they want to push.

I'm not convinced one is any worse than the other, the west is slightly better
in that you may not be sent to jail over a dissenting opinion - but good luck
trying to effect any kind of change.

~~~
jeffdavis
"but good luck trying to effect any kind of change"

One US president has already been kicked out of office due to jounalists, and
we may see it happen again in the near future. What do you think would happen
to those journalists in China, and how effective do you think they would be?

~~~
JetSpiegel
Clinton resigned actually. He was caught red handed and chose the smart way
out, since nowadays that episode is almost forgotten. Even with this surge of
witch hunts over alledged sexual misconduct.

~~~
tmhedberg
Clinton did not resign, nor was he removed from office. Are you thinking of
Nixon?

------
slimsag
It seems from my perspective that Cook knows that technology alone will help
expand viewpoints of people within China, which will ultimately lead to more
democracy in general.

I think it's unfair to assume that if Apple was to outright leave the Chinese
market that this would somehow change China's stance on censorship. Instead,
it will just likely cause competition to fill the gap as already is the case
with many things in China's tech scene today.

So what do people think is the right choice for them? Leave China all together
and say "no way, we won't be here unless the internet is totally open" or
"we'll accept it.. for now"?

~~~
richardknop
I suspect more prosaic motive. Tim Cook has fiduciary duty to his shareholders
who want to sell in China as its big market and lot of money to be made. So
Tim Cook has to do things like this in order to stay on the good side of the
Chinese government. I wouldn’t see any hidden idealism behind it.

~~~
forapurpose
> Tim Cook has fiduciary duty to his shareholders ...

That rationalization is used for a lot of damaging behavior; the duty to
shareholders is not the only duty, and does not take priority over all the
others. He also has responsibilities, for example, to employees and to his
community, and for Apple the community is everywhere they sell products.

Supporting the oppression of others in order to make money is wrong; it's
evil. His job as CEO is to navigate difficult issues like this one; the easy
questions can be left to the junior managers.

~~~
richardknop
Unfortunately in free market capitalist system duty to shareholders takes
priority over anything else. As long as you are not breaking the law (but even
that can be solved by lobbying government to add loopholes to legislature),
shareholders will be happy with anything you do which makes them more money.

Do you suggest Apple leave Chinese market? I'm not sure Tim Cook could get
away with that even if he wanted to. Board would replace him with CEO more
aligned with profit oriented shareholders imho. Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs, he
is certainly be replaceable.

~~~
forapurpose
> in free market capitalist system duty to shareholders takes priority over
> anything else

That's not actually true, though I agree that it is often repeated and there
is pressure from shareholders and others. It's not and never has required
absolute obedience; and IIRC even that idea in the theoretical sense was
developed in the 1980s, long after the advent of large public companies.

> Do you suggest Apple leave Chinese market?

His choices are not so extreme. He doesn't have to show up at this conference,
for example, or he can make a speech that promotes the freedom of the Chinese
people. There are many other ways to navigate the situation; see my prior
comment regarding that subject.

~~~
richardknop
> He doesn't have to show up at this conference

I agree. But that would be mostly meaningful gesture as it wouldn't change
anything.

> he can make a speech that promotes the freedom of the Chinese people

This might be more meaningful and would actually mean he is putting something
on the line / has skin in the game. Which is why I can't imagine Cook doing
that. He would be putting Apple's business in China in danger by doing that.

> There are many other ways to navigate the situation; see my prior comment
> regarding that subject.

Yes, but the more meaningful actions Cook / Apple could take, the more likely
it would damage their business. So it is against their interest to do anything
other than empty gestures.

~~~
forapurpose
>> He doesn't have to show up at this conference

> I agree. But that would be mostly meaningful gesture as it wouldn't change
> anything.

I disagree about its impact. He legitimizes the oppression of the Chinese
people with his presence; he says 'this is ok'.

> it is against their interest to do anything other than empty gestures

It is against their immediate financial interest; my whole point is that there
are other interests too.

------
emmelaich
Is he naive or greedy? Or is this actually a good thing? I don't know.

Combine this with the other story on the front page where Apple shares the
wireframe of your face. Not reassuring.

~~~
M4v3R
It doesn’t share the wireframe of your face. It shares a generic face
wireframe morphed to fit on your face. This wireframe lacks details that could
be used to identify you in a way FaceID does. This is not worse than letting
the developers access front facing camera to take a picture of your face.

------
Top19
China is a well run country, but most countries seem that way with 5%+
economic growth YoY.

In reality, it’s slowly becoming a prison of 1.3 billion people that is gently
closing its maws on them. Life is good, growth is great, but whenever the next
crisis comes, which it will, the government will not be replaced like in
Democracy but actively fight back, with technology developed by the best
American companies. From there, they will probably close down and self-seal
their economy like the Soviet Union did with some success, and embark on a
period of profound killing as a means of control.

~~~
thisthatandthe
China is NOT well run. Life is NOT good. The growth is FAKE 7% every year.

There was a very recent event happening in Beijing kindergarten regarding
sexual abuses....and the authorities CLAMPED DOWN ON THE MEDIA and DENIED IT
TOOK PLACE.
[http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/rumors-11292017123013....](http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/rumors-11292017123013.html)

Why do you think the rich and the intellectuals are fleeing the country?
Polluted air, polluted water, polluted food, hidden poverty, censorship,
police state, the list goes on and on....

~~~
longcheng
Polluted air, polluted water, polluted food, hidden poverty, blah, blah, ...
and yet China's life expectancy is only 3 year shorter than America's (76 vs
79), and China's population is 4 times as bigger as America's. I will have to
say, good job Chinese government!

~~~
nailer
Probably due to the trading all Chinese diet. Which has very little to do with
the communist party, who are a very recent development.

~~~
nailer
_traditional_ Chinese diet. Thanks autocorrect.

------
VeronicaJJ123
I recently met Chinese Commissioner at a party and he told me that the
political class thinks of censorship as a weakness in their society and is
fully aware that it is going to hit them badly.

He was like the censorship is more driven by vested and corrupt interests more
than competence of the communist party.

~~~
daemin
It could, but in a way it's currently acting like import tariffs but for the
Internet. It's making it easier to create and run a local clone of an
international company than to import the international company's services to
use locally.

So if or when censorship goes down, it will be Chinese companies that will be
more powerful on the Internet, not western ones.

~~~
VeronicaJJ123
BS. China ends up paying huge cost for this censorship which the government
too acknowledges. Youtube sensations are softpowers. A kid can learn million
skills by visiting youtube. If you don't have that you have a backward
society. China is wasting useful capital on reinventing the wheel that could
have gone into building something even greater.

(Do we really save $10 by cutting our own hair at home?)

~~~
daemin
Yes you could argue that China is paying a higher cost now, but their goal is
to protect and nurture their own industries so that those industries can
dominate the world later on.

It's like South Korea in the 1960's and later from what I've read. The
government invested and subsidised (i.e. protected) their young growing
industries so that they could grow to be competitive on the global market.

The USA did likewise when it was young, with tariffs on imported goods,
blatant copying of intellectual property, etc.

------
teknologist
Time to switch to Android. If Google have one thing going for them it's that
they don't give face to this brainless bullshit.

~~~
gkanai
> Time to switch to Android.

Fwiw, the CEO of Google was at the same event. So... no difference.

~~~
teknologist
Oh I don't doubt that all of these people were there, but the facts remain

And it doesn't necessarily imply that they all had secret meetings with Xi,
which Tim did.

~~~
aylmao
Or maybe their meetings were, you know, actually secret.

------
grandalf
China has been bravely dealing with a rampant "fake news" problem for decades,
and should serve as a model for US regulators and social media companies.

~~~
nikster
They're working on it...

------
peculiarbird
Steve jobs is rolling over in his grave right now..... Just think about how
Apple use to be back in the day and how they were all about being free and
open.... and now this. Steve Jobs would've never supported this in a thousand
years. I have lost so much respect for Tim Cook

~~~
lern_too_spel
1984 Mac ad, anybody?

~~~
analog31
The 1984 Mac was a closed system -- about as forbidding as a system could be
for independent developers.

