
Don’t Work for Assholes - danw
http://powazek.com/posts/1733
======
pg
More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't
hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them.

One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they
didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust
their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news,
there's often a little voice inside you saying "watch out." When you're young,
you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary.

~~~
derefr
Does this extend to not selling your product to, or marketing to, assholes? I
can see "don't have assholes as repeat/contract-based clients" as obvious, but
what about "don't have assholes as one-time customers?" If you never have to
deal with them again, does it matter?

~~~
pg
Yes, it's ok to have assholes as customers. One of the great things about the
seller-customer relationship is that it's proof against that.

When you have asshole customers, it's usually possible to turn them by being
really nice to them. This doesn't seem to be the case with bosses. So that is
another great thing about the seller-customer relationship.

I think the key is that there is no authority mixed into it. Assholes and
authority are a bad combination.

------
lionhearted
Nice piece, great sentiment, except the very dangerous: "Nine times out of
ten, the first impression someone gives you is exactly who they are."

Not true! Had a partner embezzle money from my company who seemed like a
really nice guy. Most people can be charismatic and polite for even a year at
a time before their true colors come out. To get a real idea about someone,
you need to get to know their character. The more important someone is to your
future success, the more you need to really investigate their past
relationships and see how they acted after the infatuation was over.

~~~
StrawberryFrog
Right. A bad first impression is a bad sign. The reverse (A good first
impression) is not necessarily the case.

~~~
brl
I think you can easily make mistakes judging people in both directions. It's
just that making a false negative error (not identifying an asshole) can turn
out a lot worse than a false positive (judging somebody as an asshole who
really isn't) so it's prudent to be sensitive to bad first impressions.

~~~
azanar
Agreed. But, for those who might be looking to this thread for advice on how
to detect assholes as early as possible, know the difference between prudence
and cynicism. Be cautious, but don't start out assuming that someone's good
impression is just a facade, otherwise the entire rest of that relationship
will be tainted by that.

It also doesn't hurt to go back later and try to understand _why_ you had the
gut feeling that the person is an asshole. Knowing what sort of cognitive
biases you may have, either from instinct or socialization, will likely help
the false positive rate. And the more you are considerate about things, the
less you might be likely to come off as a prejudicial asshole to someone else.

------
dpapathanasiou
" _Nine times out of ten, the first impression someone gives you is exactly
who they are. We choose not to see it because we need the money, or we want
the situation to be different._ "

That reminds me of the worst job I ever had.

I went into the interview really, really wanting the position (from the
outside, they looked like they were doing some amazing things).

I got there, was underwhelmed by the person I talked to, and despite my
misgivings, took the job exactly because I _wanted_ it to be something it was
not.

Huge mistake.

------
kurtosis
There are a lot of people who do great work who are complete assholes in
person. They didn't get to be great at what they do by being polite or
tolerant of crappy work. If they think that you are mediocre or are doing low-
quality work they won't hesitate to let you know this. At first, this left me
humiliated and angry. Other people lost their motivation and quit. Now I
actually respect not having every criticism sugar-coated in a thick shell of
polite double-talk. I'm so used to asshole behavior it doesn't really bother
me anymore. I regard this to be a strength. If it doesn't kill you... I just
hope it hasn't made me into too much of an asshole.

As for haggling over payment? Well in the real world you're going to have to
be tough in negotiations demand what you want and follow-up to get it. This is
probably the least excusable asshole behaviour of those mentioned.

~~~
thinkzig
I don't regard that type of behavior as a strength at all.

There are also lots of people who do great work that are _not_ complete
assholes in person. They have the same intolerance for crappy work and same
ability to give feedback as assholes, but are able to do it in a way that
doesn't leave the other party feeling humiliated and angry.

It's not hard to be direct and explicit about what you want without being an
asshole. It's just that the assholes don't bother. That's why they're
assholes. :)

~~~
kurtosis
Okay maybe we mean different things - when I talk to people who complain that
a boss or coworker is treating them like an asshole, when I ask for more
details I find that by "asshole behavior" they just mean that they are being
direct and explicit in their criticism. Hell, I've spoken with people who
think that _any_ critical comment is asshole behavior. I don't see how it's
possible to be direct and explicit in criticism without offending _some_
people. I've gotten called out on bad work before and it's painful, but
without this feedback it's difficult to improve.

A good friend of mine thinks that their advisor is an asshole because if they
aren't there on the weekend running their experiment their advisor will come
in and do it. Now I agree that this is borderline jerk behavior /
micromanagement, but what do you do if you hire someone that doesn't work to
your standards? Leave the machines idle?

~~~
thinkzig
It feels like we're talking about two different things in your two posts. In
the first, I thought you were saying "people have been assholes to me before
but I learned to deal with it because they were giving me feedback that I
ultimately appreciated even though they left me feeling angry and humiliated."

My point above was that being able to give constructive criticism is a
strength, but giving people feedback that makes them feel "angry and
humiliated" is not. There are lots of people that give feedback and do it in a
constructive way without being an asshole, and it's not that hard to do.

Your second post above seems to be more about people who can't take criticism
regardless of how it's given and your friend's boss, the micro-manager.

I certainly agree that you can't always be direct and constructive without
offending some people. Some people are just not ready to to hear what they
need to hear, and in some cases the criticism might be unjustified.

In either case, you're better off giving your feedback in a way that doesn't
belittle the other person. The other person may not agree with what you are
telling them, but at least you haven't added insult to injury by humiliating
them in the process.

~~~
kurtosis
I at least try to follow the rule that you should never criticise people in
front of others. I've met people who seem to be able to criticise others
without humiliating them and there seem to be at least two principles

(1) do it in private

(2) convince people that they thought of whatever you were criticising them
about

------
josefresco
I too worked for an asshole, but not in the freelance capacity but as an
employee. The worst part was he would recognize that he was an asshole and
apologize all the time, only to go back to being an asshole soon after.

I always wanted to tell him that recognizing that you're an asshole and not
breaking the behavior was worse than someone who's an asshole and doesn't know
it.

~~~
walesmd
I am, admittedly, one of those assholes. I don't characterize myself as rude
(I keep my mouth closed when I chew, I stay away from others and doorways when
I smoke, I hold doors open for people).

But, if you get in a conversation with me, I will take control. I tend to talk
over people to get my point across (although I don't care whether you agree
with me or not, not in an attempt to convince) and I tend to talk to much.

Lately, the past 3 months, I have walked away from many conversations
thinking, "Damn, I didn't let them say anything. What an asshole."

Working on changing it - guess I just get caught up in the discussion.

~~~
donw
I tend to be the same way, and I think that simply having an awareness that
you're dominating the conversation is a big first step. What are some
techniques that you use to stop yourself from stomping over everybody else, at
least verbally?

~~~
walesmd
My primary focus, for the time, has just been to not start talking until there
is a breaking point in the conversation. I find that is what drives people up
the wall the most - when they can't finish a thought because I am
interjecting.

As I think on it, this has been a recent development. I wonder if it stems
from my daughter starting to talk a year ago. My life has become a cloud of
"uh uh", "yeah", "allright!" and generally sounding excited about completely
unstimulating conversation. When I can have a discussion with someone that
challenges me, it's very exciting and usually the highlight of my day.

------
edw519
Competent + Nice = Best Combination

Competent + Asshole = I'll put up with them

Incompetent + Nice = I'll hold their hand

Incompetent + Asshole = You've got to be kidding

~~~
sspencer
Someone should make a "Co-Worker Punnett Square" with these options. But which
traits are dominant and which are recessive? ;)

~~~
potatolicious
Actually, since we're talking about traits/phenotypes (instead of genotypes),
this would be a truth table, not a Punnett square ;)

------
swombat
The one question that's not really answered there is, what if you can't afford
not to work for said asshole? In these recession times, sometimes you may
really not have a choice. "I just really need the money" is a valid statement
in some circumstances.

The other things he mentions (like the bullet-proof contract, money in
advance, and established deliverables) are a good way to protect yourself if
you MUST work for an asshole.

~~~
azanar
In these recession times, or in any other times, it can be difficult to tell
the difference between really not having a choice, and seeming to not have a
choice because of the internalization of the same platitudes one hears
repeated incessantly. Needing the money is a valid concern, but as I am
reminded of almost constantly by those around me, don't confuse a legitimate
need for the money with the social pressure of remaining at one's current
lifestyle masquerading as a need. Image and social class are not the only
thing worth being concerned about, especially if worrying about them doesn't
get you closer to being happy.

Really, I think far more people work for assholes than honestly are trapped
doing so.

Also, your second thought reminded me of this thread earlier yesterday:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=462338>. The author's philosophy seems to
be to assume the other person is an asshole, until they prove otherwise. This
thread advocates what almost seems like the opposite viewpoint; that if one
assumes everyone is a dishonest shyster, it is actually worse for business
than not assuming so and just dealing with getting burned a few times.

~~~
jacquesm
"don't confuse a legitimate need for the money with the social pressure of
remaining at one's current lifestyle masquerading as a need."

That's not only a problem in people that are self-employed, and it is a very
big obstacle to people feeling happy. When it comes to 'need' it is surprising
how few things you _really_ need.

------
jayroh
I have you guys to thank for getting this on the front page, and for Derek
Powazek for writing this. I listened to my inner voice today after having read
this post a few days ago ... a potential client that was nickel-and-diming me
on scope and price on a fixed project sent over PSD's to be sliced and
produced. Scope was - front-end work and interaction design, no back end. So
when I asked him about a contact form he wanted written and whether they were
prepared with a php script, or something, to post TO ... he got huffy and
asked -

"ARE YOU A PROGRAMMER OR WHAT?! YOU SAID YOU WERE A PROGRAMMER"

... orly?

After telling him his tone was inappropriate and disrespectful I told him we
wouldn't be working together.

his response? "OK" /hangs up

Haha - goodbye asshole! It was nice not working for you!

------
comatose_kid
This includes managers at s/w companies as well. My department at bigCo was
just re-organized, and I have a new boss.

At our first one-on-one meeting, he casually mentioned that he was 'not a
micro-manager'. This immediately caught my attention - when a manager says
this, they invariably turn out to be micro-managers.

Since then, I have had to report my status 3 times a week, and he writes
detailed emails laying out how I should do my job. As far as I can tell, he is
like this with all of his reports.

Needless to say, I'm seriously considering quitting. I recently got my green
card, so freelance work is now an option....

~~~
ajju
Wow. I have to report status 3 times a day! I want to quit as soon as I can,
but I always thought this frquency was the norm not the exception.Are you
saying majority of the big co bosses ask you for status _less_ than 3 times a
week?

~~~
forthewin
At my last job, we had biweekly status meetings that sometimes slipped to once
a month?

~~~
robotron
I have to barely report once a week.... but this certainly isn't BigCo as far
as number of employees go.

------
almost
Sounds like good advice to me. Life's too short....

One minor bit that got me wondering though. He talks about a "bullet proof
contract", anyone else here doing freelancing use a contract? I've not ever
used one and wouldn't really feel right doing so. Also I wonder how possible
it is to get one that really is bullet proof... Anyone with experiences to
share?

~~~
fraying
If you don't use a contract, you have no protection when a client refuses to
pay. Also, legally, the client does not own your work until you assign it to
them. A contract covers both parties.

------
anthonyrubin
I just finished listening to the Design View podcast yesterday. Andy covers
this topic in a few of the shows. Unfortunately he only did 8 shows in 2007,
but they are all quite good.

<http://show.andyrutledge.com/>

------
kzar
Yea I have learned this lesson myself, it's true. I think a lot of the time it
costs you more to do the work than to walk away.

------
kleneway
Best advice I've ever gotten:

"Doesn't matter where you are or what you are doing, just who you are with."

That one hasn't let me down yet.

------
dc2k08
I would like to see the bullet-proof contract.

