
Ask HN: What proficiency does one need to start freelancing?  - pbjorklund
How proficient should one be in a particular subject before starting to take on freelancing jobs?<p>I have this image in my mind about most freelancers being people who went to their 9-5 software development job for 10 years before they started to freelance.<p>My company which I have had for a few years have done some (when looking back at it now) very basic php/web-design freelancing for local companies. I was reading the thread about where to find freelance jobs (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1526199) and realized that there are a lot of projects that need coders out there. Having invested a good amount of my education recently into software development, project management and economics I think this would be a really good way to keep learning new things and at the same time get some pressure ( and money ) to motivate and make me prioritize the project at hand. Of course I wouldn't seek out projects that I knew were out of my current or near-future skill-set but this is probably the heart of the problem.<p>Do potential clients expect a certain level of expertise or are they happy as long as the product works within the boundaries of the spec and deadlines are met? Im thinking that honesty in the bidding and the continuos development process will get me a long way. By that I mean not promising deadlines that im not sure can be met and facing problems head on. But perhaps this is just naive? Also im starting to notice that the more you about something the more you realize that you still have to learn.<p>Also does the general rule of "work for free or full price, never for cheap" apply in this situation?
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csomar
In freelancing, your location doesn't matter. Your skills does. So if you are
pretty damn good, you'll get $150/hour. If you suck, you'll get the basic
$10/hour and loads of failures and problems with your clients.

I'm 19 and about to hit $1K freelancing (for two months) working around 2
hours a day. The secret is Hacker News. Learn how to talk with the client, how
to invoice, how to use a version control, how much to bid.... You can learn
these things on your own; but Hacker News discussions can be a valuable short-
cut.

English matters a lot and unless you express clearly your ideas and spend time
reading requirement and replying, you won't get freelance jobs.

Make sure also that you won't jump to $150/hour overnight. Work on Odesk
hundred hours, create a blog with valuable resources, get on HN front-page a
handful times, get linked back by other masters in the field, write a book...
And you'll get high paying clients. Don't do that, no one will care about your
10 years experience in Amandada Software Packager.

I'm taking off and will be probably making the double (so $1k in one month)
next month. Things change quickly on the Internet. Keep reading related topics
on HN, some valuable ideas and comments are hidden somewhere in the 34th node.
Print the discussion page if you don't bear the screen light.

Good Luck.

------
mixmax
The fact that you read HN probably means you're more capable than most
freelancers out there. We, as people, tend to overestimate the abilities of
others and underestimate our own, it's just the way the brain works.

I once did a job where me and a friend had to design a new intranet and
website for a client. I claimed that I was quite an expert on usability and
intranet design despite the fact that I had never done either before.
Basically I winged it. The intranet raised the companys productivity by 60%
and the redesigned site ended up in a Jakob Nielsen report on well-done
redesigns.

The moral? You're much more capable than you think.

~~~
jeromec
_I claimed that I was quite an expert on usability and intranet design despite
the fact that I had never done either before. Basically I winged it._

I believe billionaire Mark Cuban said he did this with one of his first
companies (MicroSolutions I think). He said people would ask if they did this
or that, and he just said yes to everything, even if he had to stay up reading
books all night.

Edit: I was trying to remember what his company did. I believe they were one
of the first to start networking Macs together. Anyway, I found this quote
from his blog which may also be relevant:

 _AT MicroSolutions [reading] gave me a huge advantage. A guy with little
computer background could compete with far more experienced guys just because
I put in the time to learn all I could.

I learned from magazines and books, but I also learned from watching what some
of the up and coming technology companies of the day were doing. Its funny how
the companies that I thought were brilliant then, are still racking it up
today._

~~~
wallflower
Josh James did the same thing. He would go to a client site and read and read
on a particular subject. And when they said 'oh that's a stupid idea' - he'd
be like 'well, Coke doesn't think so'.

If you have 60 minutes, this talk is inspiring.

[http://byuebusiness.blogspot.com/2009/12/josh-james-
december...](http://byuebusiness.blogspot.com/2009/12/josh-james-
december-8-2009.html)

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1164483>

------
nickpinkston
Usually, the problem for freelancers isn't the actual development part of the
job; it's personal/job/client management.

You need to be very disciplined: 1.) Know how to create/hit your goals &
estimates 2.) Know when/how to say NO 3.) How to cover-your-ass, etc.

If you can do that, and you're half-decent at the development (and finding
development talent you lack), you'll be better than the majority of people out
there.

~~~
wallflower
Do you have any personal systems/software/client management philosophies you
recommend? Basecamp works wonders for me, even though it is simple.

~~~
nickpinkston
Honestly, I'm not freelancer, but I know a lot of them. However, my startup
has a lot of the same elements. I use pretty primitive tools: gCal, gTasks,
gDoc for a "ghetto-CRM" & other customer/leads lists, etc.

I don't think it's really a tools issue; it's really a personal discipline
one. It's very difficult to keep it all straight, but a lot of it is really
just being anal and working habits into your lifestyle.

I'm still trying to perfect my habits, but a big part is discipline - even
though it's not as easy as a just changing "tools". However, I'd have to say
that having a smartphone changed my life for better this way. I can use my
impulsiveness to check my tasks/calendar/docs from anywhere so it's at the
front of my mind.

------
drewcrawford
I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I wrote a fairly successful blogpost
about what I've learned doing full-time freelancing this summer:
[http://sealedabstract.com/rants/5-lessons-learned-while-
bein...](http://sealedabstract.com/rants/5-lessons-learned-while-being-a-
freelance-iphone-developer/)

I think you're on the wrong track focusing on the technical side. If you read
HN, you're at least an okay coder. Focus on improving your business skills:

* Figure out where your potential clients hang out. Capturing Google searches is a good place to start

* Filter out the really dumb people in some sort of automated fashion. Every minute you spend figuring out if a client is even serious is a minute where you could be productive.

* Learn to write clearly. Either that or talk on the phone. Master at least one communication skill, and try not to suck at the other.

* Get some pretty templates for doing estimates, invoices and such

* Read a book or two on contracts. Write out your terms in a bulleted list, but hand it to a lawyer to enlegalize.

* You don't need a signed contract on every project--just the ones for which you want to be paid.

* The most important thing is to get 3 projects in your portfolio. Even if you have to be your own client.

* Deals fall through. Always talk to 3x as many people as you can actually do work for. If you're turning away business and people get angry with you, you're doing it right.

------
briancooley
Here's how I got to $45/HR on oDesk. Its admittedly a low rate, but its about
double the average.

\- Be a good communicator. This means speaking and writing well, giving timely
updates, and being clear about the spec.

\- Be honest. Buyers are expecting you to blow smoke. If you don't, they'll be
shocked. This means sometimes saying, "I don't know how to do that, but I can
learn."

\- Follow through. I've had one client pay me to learn something just because
he knows I will do what I say I will.

I'm sure there's more tips, and I do a lot wrong (like not say "No"). But
doing the basics will put you above the crowd, even if your skills aren't top
10%.

------
PaulJoslin
I've read a lot of interesting comments on here, but what is everyone's stand
point on support. Do you offer free support? Do you charge? Do your clients
ask for it? Obviously a change request is chargeable, but what about a bug?

I used to do freelance work face to face, I made a nice chunk of money from it
- but in the end the support I had to give was exhausting. Most of it was
neither a bug to be fixed or a request requiring a change, often in fact the
support query was completely unrelated to my freelance work.

This is one problem with freelancing in general. At the start it is easy, fun,
creative and you are printing money. However, the more clients you have, the
more work you do and the more money you make, is counter balanced by the
increase in support duties.

I decided to join a software consultancy instead, doing roughly the same role
as when I was freelancing. The only difference is, now I get paid a salary
(which is a lot less) and our support team handle the support of clients.
(Something which many clients actually are happy to pay a premium / service
fee for).

This said, I see how much money things cost clients compared to my salary (for
my work) and get the temptation to just go freelance again.

So HN freelancers, what is your standpoint on ongoing support?

------
egget
I did web design (but no application development) all though high school and
college, part time, at from $7 to $15/hr. I got a CS degree, did freelance PHP
web development for one client for a year, lived with my parents (don't
remember my rate... probably something depressing like $25/hr). Then I went to
grad school, got a masters and a couple years of Ph.D. Then I dropped out and
screwed around and bootstrapped a startup (great portfolio piece) for two
years.

All the while I've been eating up as much web development knowledge as
possible, and hacking on silly side projects.

A month ago I put myself on the market as a Rails developer and within a few
days landed a $75/hr 20hr/wk job. No one I quoted that rate to blinked an eye.
The folks I'm working for are very happy with my work.

Just one data point.

------
ahlatimer
I'm 20 (almost 21), have about three years of real world experience, one in
the niche I'm working in (Rails), and I started freelancing via elance a
little over a month ago. I've made, so far, $2350 working 20 or so hours a
week, and I've already started getting contacted for work instead of actively
seeking it. I also made an extra grand through a personal contact, but those
may or may not be an option for you. Freelancing isn't hard, and the barrier
to entry is surprisingly low.

I'm honest with clients, and that may or may not have helped me succeed. I
have yet to make a promise I was unable to deliver. Make sure you give
yourself a little bit of breathing room. If something is probably going to
take me a week, I'll tell the client it will take me a week and a half. It
might be easy to promise you'll have something done by some date to please the
client, but I'd rather have a few repeat clients than a ton of people I've
only worked with once.

I'm not charging a lot ($25/hour, which I'll probably raise soon), but I'm
still charging double or triple what some foreign providers are charging. I
don't know where you're from, but if you're a native English speaker (bonus if
you're in the US), you have an advantage already. The people I've worked with
are willing to pay extra to have people in a similar timezone that natively
speak English.

It's not all roses, though. Some people expect you to work for pennies, or
they grossly underestimate what goes into building something. You just have to
walk away from those clients. You'll also see a lot of people wanting x for y
built, where x is some popular social network and y is some (apparently) under
served market. You might have some issue building something you know is likely
going to fail, but they're usually happy to pay.

Some people suggest becoming a master of some niche field. Doing so will
apparently cause people to seek you out. That might work, but, honestly, I've
found it to be unnecessary. I'm already in the top 5% of Rails providers on
elance, and I'm not the most experienced Rails developer. Again, the barrier
to entry is surprisingly low.

It also makes me feel better to go through a freelancing site. Fixed price
jobs on elance, for instance, are usually escrow type where the client sends
the funds into escrow and elance hangs on to them until they mark the job
complete. At least, that way, you know that the client is good for it.

Edit: To expand on my argument that you don't need to be a master of some
niche, I will suggest that you _target_ a niche, even if you aren't a master
at it. You'll compete a lot less being a Rails developer than a Ruby
developer. It seems me to you'll also have better luck if you pick something
that hasn't been commoditized by overseas companies (say, picking Ruby or
Python over Java or PHP).

~~~
freshfey
Very good advice for such a young person. Your post makes clear that age !=
experience.

To the OP, I think it depends strongly on your client whether you have to have
a big portfolio with big names in it or don't have to have a portfolio at all.
My advice: Charge a little less (ahlatimer does this, too), but deliver
quality and learn on the go as much as you can. I think every customer is
looking for quality & honesty, so when you deliver, you will be able to charge
a little more the next time. Good luck!

------
patio11
Expertise is mostly just a way to reassure clients that you will be able to do
the work that you promise to do and that after they have cut the check the
system will actually function.

The single easiest way to reassure someone that you're capable of doing X is
to have done X before. (Or even better, to have someone trusted say you have
done X before.)

------
damoncali
You need to be competent enough to know which jobs you can't manage in a
timely manner and turn them down. Practically speaking, that means you should
be able to write a simple crud app in your sleep. You should be able to
sprinkle some fancy JavaScript ui here and there, and you should be
comfortable working with APIs. I'd say you should be familiar with payments,
but services like Chargify make that so easy, it's no harder than working with
Twitter, for example.

If you can do all that without wasting too much time learning, you're more
than qualified to freelance.

Note that I said nothing about scaling and other back end magic. Most clients
don't need scale. They need front end development.

Be selective at first, and don't take on anything that you can't do well.
Referrals are gold, and you get them by doing a great job, not be stretching
yourself. That's what side projects are for.

And I would say, always work for full price - period. Again, free is for side
projects.

------
rwhitman
I have been freelancing since I graduated college 8 years ago. I've been self
employed so long I wouldn't even know what to do with a fulltime job.

I routinely accept projects that are well outside of my programming abilities
or have unreasonable deadlines or budgets and always land on my feet.

In my experience you can get away with a lot less competence as a freelancer.
Since clients have no access to your methods, freelancers can sometimes get
away with awful code as long as they finish the job to spec and on time. I've
seen it done many times.

The big difference here is managing yourself. If you're the kind of person
that needs a lot of structure and a manager around, then it will be difficult.
If you're pretty independent and can live with occasional cash shortages and
work overloads, then you're good to go.

------
Tichy
The nature of programming jobs is usually not to know in advance everything
you have to do. You just need to know how to figure out what to do.

------
paolomaffei
Uh, you just need to be able to sell.

~~~
pbjorklund
Ok so add to the question that repeat business is something that I want to
strive for.

~~~
jonah
Sell, yes. And if you build excellent client relationships (LOTS of
communication and honesty is good) then your clients should keep coming back
to you for ongoing work.

Additionally you want your clients to be your biggest cheerleaders and talk
you up and recommend you to their associates and friends for work.

You can even offer a referral fee, I've done this, but generally if people
like you, they're happy to make referrals without even being asked.

------
endual
You need to know more than the person you're freelancing to...

Since you've had a few years in a related field and built up some contacts you
should be good to go (as long as you have a good rep with them). Let them know
you are offering a new service, and get some info up. No matter what you're
going to be learning new stuff the whole time, so you may as well just start
now!

------
zaidf
_I have this image in my mind about most freelancers being people who went to
their 9-5 software development job for 10 years before they started to
freelance._

I got my first freelance "project" on rentacoder.com in 9th grade. It earned
me a whole $5.00. Few months later, I was winning bigger projects. I know lots
of folks who have followed similar paths.

------
mathgladiator
Depending on the level of clients you plan to have, you may need to learn to
be ruthless.

------
edave
I think there's books written on just answering your question, I'll try and
hit the highlights. To give you some background, my biz partners and I started
our consulting firm as a side job in college, then when we graduated and
basically said to ourselves "why the hell not? it's been working so far." The
first 6 months or so were the hardest as we figured out what bootstrapping a
full-time business meant, as compared to moonlighting from your dorm room. For
example, paying your employees first means your monthly paycheck may need to
wait until that next invoice is paid in a few weeks. Within 2 years our rates
had increased by 5x (and not from $5->$25 either), there were 10 of us, 2.5
offices, a non-profit in Peru and we got all of our business through client
referrals. However, I was also very stressed and constantly working

Overall: Honestly, technical skill is only half of doing good freelancing.
Even more so as you become successful and find that you're doing more managing
than technical work. And obviously, technical skill is the foundation of your
freelance ability. Still, let's assume you have good technical skills.

If there's one thing I wish I'd learned much more about early on in my
consulting firm, it is how to manage your client's expectations along the
entire way- from quote -> negotiation -> project -> deliverables. I don't have
any horror stories, but I feel like that was the biggest squeaky wheel as we
were getting started. That, and don't worry about looking too professional.
You won't be, it'll probably show in ways you don't know, and instead treat as
much as you can as a learning experience rather than trying to hide your lack
of knowledge. However, watch out for predatory clients who confuse naivete
with lack of business expertise and try to take advantage of you or tell you
"how things are done"... to their advantage.

1\. Clients do expect a certain level of expertise, but your rate, portfolio
and past referrals should go a long ways in setting your client's
expectations. Specs, even highly technical ones imo, are a fickle thing in
freelance work- a phrase I've repeatedly heard from very successful
freelancers is "under-sell, over deliver." But that's just one approach.

2\. To be honest, there are many freelancers/firms who are not honest about
their rates/development process/billable hours and they still pay the bills.
On the flip side, my biz partners and I try to run our firm by the Golden
Rule* and it's worked exceptionally well for us.

3\. Yes, that is a good general rule, but you should decide early on if you
want to do speculative work or not (different from pro bono work). Many firms
feel that speculative work is damaging unless you are just starting out and
need to establish a portfolio/set of client referrals (in which case, you're
still being "compensated" with something of value, just not cash...). Also,
you may find that you're willing to work at different rates for different
clients.

Hope that helps!

