
Damning Zuckerberg IMs confirmed - btilly
http://www.boingboing.net/2010/09/14/damning-zuckerberg-i.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+boingboing/iBag+(Boing+Boing)
======
SoftwareMaven
So at what age are you old enough to be held accountable for what you say?
Maybe I'm old-fashioned, living in a world before the term "Emerging
Adulthood" was coined and people were expected to be reasonably mature by the
time they were old enough to graduate from college.

He deserves EVERY single piece of negative response he gets for those
comments. Even then, he was being trusted with people's private information, a
trust that he not only disdained, but he openly expressed a desire to abuse.

If that were the only insights into his personality, I'd agree that "context,
age, blah, blah, blah", but when taken with everything else about him, it
paints a picture of a guy that I would want nothing to do with.

The real question, though, IMO, is whether interacting with Facebook is really
having anything to do with Zuck. I wouldn't want to actually have business
dealings with FB, but, at this point, to what extent could Zuck "fuck them in
the ear" (to use his eloquent phrase)? I think the answer to that is not so
much (I do have an account) but enough that I'm not going to go overboard
(minimal status updates; photos are backed up not stored on FB; no use of
places or likes; etc).

~~~
danielha
I'm inclined to agree with you regarding accountability. But, I dunno, I
really don't want my company or business ethics judged by stuff I said to
friends in college... through IM. People say stupid stuff all the time.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
If it were just generic stuff, I would completely agree. I say stupid stuff to
my friends now.

However, he was talking about his customers, the people using his service.
That gives much less leniency, in my book, especially when everything else is
taken into account.

I guess I see it much the same as I'd see an investment advisor who open
talked about screwing his customers out of their money. FB's financial value
comes from the data that Zuck is talking about screwing people with.

~~~
danielha
Customers? I don't think anyone saw Facebook then as they see it today.

------
jacquesm
The take home lesson here is that all your online activities can be used in
court against you some day in unbelievable detail, so if you plan on being
'successful' start acting responsible today, no matter what your age.

Impressions matter, during a lawsuit evidence matters, this provides plenty of
both.

~~~
Sam_Odio
I haven't asked Zuck personally if he made these comments. However I can say
that after working with him on privacy and photo related issues that these
comments definitely don't characterize his approach to the subject. He seems
like a pretty normal guy just trying to make the world more open and
connected.

I agree with jacquesm...this is a great lesson. Don't email, IM, text, etc
anything you wouldn't want to read on Valleywag.

~~~
awakeasleep
Don't use a search engine to look for it either, or visit websites related to
it from a browser or location that could be tracked back to you.

And don't leave voicemails about it to someone with google voice, or talk
about it to someone using google to call you. Don't talk about it
internationally on skype, and don't visit untoward locations with your
smartphone in your pocket. Don't drive there using gps, either.

~~~
jamesbritt
Is there a plausible way to spread disinformation about your activity, such
that if anyone ever brought up your past electronic activities you could show
that there's no way to tell what's a true record and what's just random shit
created by some service?

~~~
EGreg
Well, there's always

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-the-Record_Messaging>

which gives "perfect" forward secrecy

~~~
danielnicollet
I am not much of a crypto but I'd be curious to know if this is open to
goverment monitoring. Do you know?

~~~
cullenking
No, it's not open to government monitoring, unless of course they have the
ability to break "unbreakable" encryption. And, if they do manage to magically
brute force a single key, they only get a single message decrypted. Each
message uses a different key, so compromising a single message doesn't
compromise the whole conversation.

For a school project I (sorta) implemented this on Android 1.5 two years ago.
I stopped before finishing the key rotation stuff, so ended up with just a
encrypted text messaging client. Another company just recently announced an
OTR text message program for android, you should look it up! Textsecure by
Whisper Systems.

Clickable link: <http://www.whispersys.com/>

~~~
danielnicollet
Very nice. This is reassuring that such stuff is still available, legal and
protects us from the peering eyes of whoever is in power at any time...

------
acabal
This is just a few IM's of a kid joking with his college buddy about what was
then nothing more than a side project. It's not like he could have known that
in a few years it would have become one of the world's biggest web sites. It
sounds like he's just having a laugh with a friend.

Honestly if I was in his position at the same time at that same age I would
have joked in the same way. I doubt his views on the matter are the same now
that he's many years older and his site has a dictionary entry. Give the kid a
break.

~~~
StuffMaster
I would have joked, but not in the same way. Calling his own users 'dumb
fucks' for trusting him is insulting and implies that he's unethical.

~~~
scorpion032
You really seem to ignore the context. Sometimes, (the ability to be able) to
do wrong can be "cool". Why do you think young people smoke?

~~~
runT1ME
Dude, calling your users dumb is fine. But saying you're going to 'fuck them
in the ear'? When would that be cool? He wasn't 14 btw, when he said this...

~~~
KrisJordan
"f them in the ear" was not in the context of users, it was in the context of
ConnectU and competing websites. It's more obvious in the New Yorker article.

~~~
loewenskind
So he was talking about the company he worked for and probably stole the idea
from? I'm not sure that's better...

------
notaddicted
I find it humorous that while Zuckerberg is:

* offering the information, but hasn't actually leaked it

* offering phonebook / directory type info, which is semi germane to the actual purpose of the site, especially in the early days

Meanwhile Boingboing is making public a recording of a private conversation
held over IM.

~~~
dillydally
I've read all these IMs before. IIRC, they were in the trial transcripts.

I believe at least one of the "FRIEND"s is Adam D'Angelo, former Facebook CTO
and now founder of Quora.

In any case, it's not as if Boing Boing hacked into Zuckerberg's computer to
get these. They're freely available.

~~~
thinkcomp
Actually, they were under seal in ConnectU, Inc. v. Facebook, Inc., and Mark's
attorneys fought very hard to keep them that way. They're only freely
available now because they were leaked.

Given my personal stake in it all I'd like to know what the rest of the still-
unpublished ones say.

------
jacoblyles
I'd hate to have people criticize everything I said or did when I was 19 years
old. I said and did some pretty immature things, hell I had only been living
away from my parents for a year. 19->23 was a time of big change for me and I
think it is for most people.

Poor Zuck.

------
code_duck
You mean there are still people out there who who have doubts whether
Zuckerberg is a sociopath with zero ethics? Why would that be?

~~~
edanm
I don't know about other people, but I have doubts. I'm actually willing to
bet Zuckerberg is very far from being a sociopath. Most of the "damning"
stories about him are of the same caliber as this story. And this article,
IMO, proves nothing.

So he joked around about privacy in IMs 4 years ago. We don't have any
context, we don't know almost any of the surrounding circumstances. In fact,
since people are publishing these IMs but _aren't_ publishing reports of him
leaking actual data, I'm willing to bet these IMs really were just jokes.

Other stories are similarly void of content.

The truth is, I know almost no one who I'd consider a sociopath with zero
ethics. The chance against Zuckerberg being one is pretty small. The chance is
much higher that the media have chosen to focus on him because he is: a) rich
b) powerful and c) made some moves that some people didn't like in regards to
privacy.

~~~
thinkcomp
You're wrong.

There are, in fact, published reports of him actually breaking into Crimson
reporters' private FAS (Harvard) e-mail accounts with information he gleaned
from Facebook. [http://www.businessinsider.com/how-mark-zuckerberg-hacked-
in...](http://www.businessinsider.com/how-mark-zuckerberg-hacked-into-the-
harvard-crimson-2010-3)

You don't know anyone you'd consider a sociopath with zero ethics because the
vast majority of people aren't. Just the same, the people who up hugely
successful by most people's standards, which is to say "rich," have a much
higher probability of having gotten there at someone else's expense.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
_Just the same, the people who up hugely successful by most people's
standards, which is to say "rich," have a much higher probability of having
gotten there at someone else's expense._

You're wrong. Or at least, we have no reason to believe that you're right,
other than small-mindedness borne of jealousy and self-righteousness.

~~~
thinkcomp
There are countless stories of well-known and incredibly wealthy software CEOs
such as Bill Gates and Larry Ellison crushing their competition, sometimes in
ways that went beyond what was necessary to merely succeed. Outside of
software, you only need to look at the financial sector to see rich people who
got to their present position at the expense of others.

I don't think my comment was small-minded at all!

~~~
ryanwaggoner
There are also countless stories of rich people who are very nice and got
where they are through hard work and creating a lot of value for their
customers, investors, and employees. But you didn't choose to focus on them.
Why not?

~~~
thinkcomp
"There are also countless stories of rich people who are very nice..."

Enterprise is great--I'm a capitalist, too--but who are you kidding? If all it
took to get rich and create value was niceness, I'm pretty sure Hacker News
would be largely unnecessary.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Seriously? You're going to make the leap from me saying that there are lots of
rich people who are nice and create value to accusing me of saying that
niceness is all that's required to get rich and create value? You really can't
see the vast gulf between the two statements?

I take issue with your original statement because I think it's bullshit based
on nothing. The laziest thing to do is just assume that all rich people got
that way by screwing someone over. There are bad people at all levels of
society, and I have no data to lead me to believe it's any more prevalent at
higher levels of wealth. I doubt you have any data either. Feel free to post
it if you do, but otherwise, this just seems like another empty, jealous rant
against the rich.

~~~
thinkcomp
I totally agree with you that there are some rich people who have earned their
wealth. I never disputed that. My point, if you read carefully, is that
they're rare. You asked why I didn't focus on them, and it's because it's hard
to think of any examples of business titans who are known for their hard work
ethic and nothing else. For example, I might have said Michael Dell, but it
turns out that he just paid off the SEC to remain CEO of his company after it
was discovered that 75% of Dell's 2007 (I think) revenue came from illegal
anti-competitive payoffs from Intel to not use AMD chips.

What I said (which also happens to be what I meant) was that there was a
higher probability that someone with a vast sum of money had reached their
level of wealth by harming someone relative to someone without that same level
of wealth. I didn't say "all rich people." And I gave some examples to support
my point.

An example to support your point would be someone like Warren Buffet, who
doesn't have the kind of reputation that Gates and Ellison have earned for
themselves. He proceeded to amass his fortune, to the best of my knowledge,
slowly and as ethically as one could hope for. I have a lot of respect for
hard-working and successful people like Buffet, but also those who are worth a
fraction of what he is.

On the other hand, I generally don't have a lot of respect for people who
start off on the assumption that I am small-minded and jealous, and then go
from there. If you want to make a point here that's fine, just don't pretend
like I've said something that I didn't.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Maybe the difference in our opinion is our definition of rich. If you define
rich as only those who are in the top 10 richest people in the world, then
maybe you have a point (though I'm still skeptical). If you use a more widely
accepted measure of rich or wealthy (say $5m in liquid assets) you include
hundreds of thousands of people in this country alone. And you never hear
anything about almost any of those people. They live quiet lives, building
their business and spending time with their families. Who wants to write about
that? So journalists cover the flashy bastards instead, which skews your
perception. Read some research that's been done on the wealthy as a group
before you go making conclusions based on a handful of the most extreme
outliers at the top.

~~~
code_duck
I suppose this has validity, but on the other hand, there are plenty of cut
throats in the '2nd largest car dealership in Idaho' level.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Yes, but are there more than in the general population? That's what we're
debating. And I'm skeptical that's the case, but even more skeptical that the
claimant has any data to make such a strong claim.

~~~
code_duck
Sure, I think that's how they get to these positions. Aggressive ambition and
a lack of concern for the wellbeing of others relative to one's own wellbeing
pays off. It seems pretty obvious to me.

------
rewind
I read this more as a young kid said something stupid over IM, maybe to be
cool, maybe not, but people -- especially young people -- say dumb shit all
the time to be cool, even if they don't mean what the say. Yes, he's now the
CEO of a hugely influential company, but to apply those comments to his
current situation is to take the comments somewhat out of context.

Are they relevant? Sure. Are they as relevant as if he said them two weeks
ago? Not even close. People blow this stuff way out of proportion. Does anyone
REALLY think that he'd leak personal information now the way he talked about
in these IMs?

He has had to grow up a lot faster than most people his age, and he has
handled it pretty well, as far as I'm concerned. People love to flip out over
this stuff. Sometimes it's worth flipping out over. I don't see this as one of
those times.

------
thinkcomp
More IMs:

<http://www.thinkpress.com/authoritas/timeline.pdf>

~~~
mahmud
UGH. Read the thing in its entirety and that Aaron guy comes off as too
helpful and naive.

Fuck, you can tell from the tone Zuck takes with him. Zuck is nice when he
needs something, and cold as ice when he knows he did something.

Pretty fucking sad and annoying at the same time. UGH!

[Edit:

Oh, the parent is ThinkComp/Aaoron! My sympathies dude. Too bad, you're a
typical flat-footed computer programmer; how come you haven't seen this guy
for what he is the moment he told you to take down the ads featuring his site?
then he returns to you, repeatedly, for advice, help, testing, feedback and
insight. Why did you allow that?]

~~~
thinkcomp
I am "that Aaron guy," and it was my job to be helpful. At the time, I ran the
only entrepreneurship club at Harvard available to undergraduates.

In retrospect, I was naive, but so was Mark. Ironically, I think he
underestimated the value of having friends, and the negative value of having
enemies.

~~~
mahmud
Alright,

I see you settled for $65MM, that's about fair, even if the lawyers take half
of it.

Next time, please get yourself a human hound to sniff out people. You seem
like an all too nice and too trusting person.

~~~
thinkcomp
I was not part of ConnectU so I didn't settle for $65 million, actually. I
settled separately.

------
daniel-cussen
Irony is, between the lawsuits, the disclosures, and the movie, now nobody has
more embarrassing information about them available to the public than Mark
Zuckerberg.

------
coryl
I'm a nice guy, but honestly, if I was a kid with that much power, I probably
would have acted the same. People were feeding him their emails, photos,
personal info straight to his servers. And they still ARE!

Still, he might have still been treating Facebook as a goofy side project at
this point. And IM chat doesn't express jest or joking around.

Call a spade a spade.

~~~
thinkcomp
This is a really weak argument, to say the very least.

For one thing, just because a lot of kids are immature doesn't mean that they
have a license to break the law. Joking obviously isn't a violation of the
law, but breaking into private e-mail accounts is (18 USC 1030).

For another, Mark had already been formally disciplined by the Administrative
Board for Facemash when he wrote these, so he clearly knew better.

Aruging that Facebook has the right to misuse people's content just because
they provide it is clearly wrong.

In addition, there are five people including myself who ultimately filed legal
action against Mark and/or Facebook, Inc. because of what happened at Harvard.

Lastly, at roughly the same age, I ran the same core product at the same time
in the same place with the same name with the same people's information, and I
didn't do that. I didn't joke with my friends about it, I didn't make fun of
my users, I certainly never intended to abuse people's trust, and I never did.
One of those users was Mark and I have his SHA-1 password hash sitting in my
database, as well as his cell phone number--but I'm not going to share it with
anyone, nor have I ever. Clearly it's possible to run such an operation in a
different way than Mark.

"Call a spade a spade" indeed.

~~~
ams6110
Maybe he dropped out of Harvard before he took Business Ethics.

~~~
ryanelkins
Heh. Sorry for all the downvotes, I thought it was funny...

------
thought_alarm
Meh. I canceled my Facebook account years ago.

But these IMs are just typical of the immature little kid he was back then. We
all say and do stupid things when we're that age. It's not a big deal.

------
seltzered
relax everyone, diaspora's developer release is tomorrow!

"Addendum (8/30): To clarify, September 15 will be our open-source developer
release. At that time, we will open up our github repository, publish our
roadmap, and shift our development style to be more community oriented. We
intend on launching a consumer facing alpha in October. Join our mailing list
to get an invite." via <http://www.joindiaspora.com/2010/08/26/overdue-
update.html>

------
varjag
Nothing to add about those IMs. His friends suck though.

------
Andrew_Quentin
To be fair, it is slightly dumb to give some site your real name, university
e-mail, your address, etc.

I remember back when I signed up with a fake username, to be requested to sign
up with my real name and uni e-mail, etc. No wonder I haven't really used
Facebook much at all.

But, whatever he said in the IMs is just "normal" that is, just something we
all might have said. So, I do not think that the lesson here is as jacquesm
suggests, but rather that we might be entering an age and time when the gods
of politics, commerce, science, and whatever other field are shown to be just
normal people more vividly.

------
gojomo
I don't think they're 'damning'. 22-year-olds say silly things. People use
facetious language and braggadoccio in private conversations that shouldn't be
taken literally.

And even if his statements are taken literally, if the student info had been
volunteered without a promise of strict single-purpose confidentiality,
students should have expected their info might be shared for any legal purpose
at the discretion of the site proprietor. That's why explicit privacy policies
are important; at least in the US, without a promise to the contrary, almost
anything goes.

------
loup-vaillant
To sum up in 5 words what many here said in more: "Great Powers imply Great
Responsibilities."

At 19, Zuck had big powers and no responsibility. It's not excusable, and I'm
not sure it's forgiveable either.

Now, Mark Zuckerberg has _immense_ power. I doubt that he's responsible enough
to make up for it. I even doubt that _anyone_ can be responsible enough.

And if the responsibility needed to wield the power of Facebook doesn't exist,
well, maybe wielding it _at all_ is not excusable, or even forgiveable.

------
scotth
Bet Zuckerberg is wishing that Schmidt's "let kids change their names" idea
was implemented a few years ago.

~~~
thenduks
Really? Personally I'd guess Zuckerberg will never even read this story... and
if he did I doubt he'd care.

~~~
scotth
No, not really.

I was just pointing out that Schmidt's comment has some credibility to it. The
only reason it doesn't apply to Zuckerberg specifically is because of his
powerful position, however the situation is the same.

~~~
thenduks
Ok, fair enough :)

------
nphase
I'd just like to say this: instead of immediately "going to fuck them", he
went and created one of the largest websites in the world. Sounds like a much
better outcome (at least for him) to me.

------
16s
Where is the confirmation? IMO, he would have to admit he did it. Maybe I
missed that in the article.

IMs are not PGP signed or anything like that. It could have been someone
pretending to be him. Maybe he left his laptop unlocked and a roommate or
friend typed those words as a joke. There are hundreds of things that may have
happened. Zuck may have nothing to do with it.

Don't rush to judgment. Anyone can pretend to be anyone on the Internet.

~~~
bond
In Vargas's story, Zuckerberg admits he wrote the IMs and says he "absolutely"
regrets them.

[http://www.businessinsider.com/embarrassing-and-damaging-
zuc...](http://www.businessinsider.com/embarrassing-and-damaging-zuckerberg-
ims-confirmed-by-zuckerberg-the-new-yorker-2010-9)

------
adlep
I think that this is a warning to all of us. Please, be a respectful and civil
net citizen. If you troll around like crazy it may come up in the future and
come back to hunt you. P.S. I have done my share of occasional trolling and
silly comments. I don't think that they were offensive though.

------
kno
These are 22 yo words, at the time he was still uncertain of the future as all
of us have been at some point in our lives. It will be wrong and kinda unfair
to hold these words against him.

------
qq66
I've said much worse things, both online and offline. These are a teenager's
IM's. Nothing to see here, move on.

------
nitrogen
Were these IMs obtained from server logs, or from participants in the
conversations?

------
tlrobinson
Haven't these been circulating for years?

------
rsbrown
I've really wanted to avoid joining the list of friends who have expunged
their Facebook identities. This makes it very tempting to jump ship, though.

~~~
brown9-2
Why? Either you are comfortable with the amount of personal information you
are publishing on Facebook's systems or you are not.

If you are comfortable about the personal information you are giving them then
I don't see why out-of-context IMs from years ago change how _you_ feel about
_your_ actions.

If you're not comfortable with your own sharing then what the heck are you
doing?

~~~
rsbrown
The temptation to leave Facebook is motivated by principle, not pragmatism. Of
course whatever personal information I have submitted to websites over the
years has been snooped at some point or other. That doesn't make mean we
should meekly accept such behavior.

EDIT: To clarify -- I am comfortable with the personal information I have
shared. Such comfort does not imply permission for the holder of that
information to snoop it.

------
igorgue
remembers me the latest xkcd comic: <http://xkcd.com/792/>

------
klbarry
I've definitely joked around just like that. This means nothing about Zuck's
character.

------
Charuru
Can anyone explain the context and relevance of the IMs? Is he being sued for
privacy violations or some such, so is it just a random/in general smear?

------
zaidf
Leave him alone already!

------
dimarco
I hardly call the IMs "Damning" considering how he's continued to grow into
one of the most powerful people in the tech industry.

