
Logitech MX Master 3 vs. 2S Teardown - Rondom
https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/
======
lilyball
I love the Logitech hardware quality but I really wish they'd work on their
software quality.

I'm using a G502 at work right now with Logitech Gaming Software and the two
completely baffling decisions they made with that software on macOS:

1\. It has to be running. If I launch it for configuration and hit ⌘Q it stops
working and my mouse reverts to the default. I have to remember to close the
window instead, which leaves it in the menubar.

2\. I can't unmap buttons and have them act as generic HID mouse buttons. I
can map buttons to mouse 1, 2, and 3, but I can't go past that. I can map
buttons to various special functions, but it would be a hell of a lot more
flexible if I could just have mouse 4 and mouse 5 mapped. For example, I can
map the "sniper" button to Mission Control, but I can't change its behavior
with keyboard modifiers, whereas if it was just Mouse 5 I could use the system
configuration to map that to Mission Control and then use keyboard modifiers
to change its behavior.

~~~
whalesalad
Logitech software is a dumpster fire. For a while there it would start and go
to 170-190% CPU and just burn until it was killed.

I share your experience and frustration.

~~~
baroffoos
I'm so glad linux usually contains reverse engineered drivers that are open
source so everything just works out of the box with logitech.

~~~
OJFord
It really is quite incredible the unrewarded, often thankless (except that
which we're doing now) effort that must go into that.

I had an issue recently with missing drivers for a network card (my fault, I
deleted the kernel modules, it had been and now is again working), and it just
made me think exactly what you're saying, how glad I am that someone's
provided this.

------
deanclatworthy
For those interested, Logitech recently resurrected [1] their most famous
mouse. The MX518. At least I was able to now buy it from retailers in Europe
:) I love it. Could never get used to the more bulk Logitech mice such as the
one in OP.

[1] [https://www.techpowerup.com/review/logitech-g-
mx518/](https://www.techpowerup.com/review/logitech-g-mx518/)

~~~
rofo1
For MX518 lovers, I've got a strong recommendation for G400s. The shape is
almost the same and it's amazing how durable it is. The cable issue is still
there, just like in MX518, and eventually (I am guessing) that's the reason
I'll have to switch to something else.

I've been using both of them for years and years. Amazing.

~~~
InvaderFizz
I prefer the G400s over the MX518 as I like the more grippy shell.

You can get cable replacement kits for the MX518/G400/G400s for $9 from eBay
that includes new feet and a USB cable. So I'm really not worried about
longevity.

P.S. You should take the mouse apart and clean it probably at least once per
year. I cleaned my MX518 after about 5 years when the scroll stopped working
consistently. I was shocked how much hair was on the inside, blocking the
scroll sensor.

~~~
ThatPlayer
Yep. I just bought a new USB cable for mine myself, and switched to a spare I
had.

I find I need to clean my scroll wheel maybe twice a year. It gets more stuck
with gunk over time, and it becomes harder and harder to scroll.

------
uwuhn
My mouse progression since 2005 has been MX518 - G400S - G903. I used the G502
for a few days when it first came out, and couldn't stand it because it just
felt...weird with my grip. It also made my hand hurt.

I'm completely locked into Logitech since I just can't function without a
free-scrolling scroll wheel, and they apparently have it patented. I tried
some of their other newer mice without free-scrolling, and not having it is
just a complete dealbreaker.

I'm very happy with the G903 so far. The worst part was definitely the price.
I'm tempted to get the new MX518, but I feel like the G903 is strictly better
for my usage right now.

~~~
huangc10
I 100% agree with you. Since using the MX Revolution in the late 2000s, I
couldn't go back to anything. For me, MX Revolution - G500 - G500 (literally 2
for almost 8 years) - and just this year, the MX Master 2S. Long live the free
scroll.

~~~
friendlybus
I love the MX Master 2S except for the input lag. I don't know why there is no
way to disable that.

------
cmer
I've been using the 2S for a while and just bought the MX 3 because I needed
an extra mouse.

They managed to improve an already near-perfect mouse. I just love the 3.
Probably not worth ditching your 2S for, but nonetheless, a superb upgrade. I
always felt the thumb buttons were awkward on the 2S and that has been
rectified. The magnetic wheel is also really nice to use.

~~~
nwah1
Yes, the thumb buttons seem much better. USB-C is an upgrade.

Only thing that is missing is a wireless charging. Some competitors use Qi
charging or a special mousepad, so there's never a need to plug it in.

In 2010, Logitech released a solar-powered keyboard called the K750. Now that
batteries and PV cells are improving, and low energy wireless technology is
improving, I bet this would be less terrible.

Also in 2010, RCA invented an "Airenergy" device that could harvest ambient
wifi signals for use as a power source.

I imagine some combination of the above technologies could eliminate cables
from peripherals entirely.

~~~
jandrese
The power density on WiFi is minuscule. FCC Regulations mean you can transmit
at a max of 300mW only, and the power you receive is affected by the Inverse
Square Law on top of that, so total delivered power to your device is
fractions of a mW unless your wireless router is right next to the router.
Even then the entire process tends to be rather inefficient on top of that so
the math probably doesn't work out.

The Qi mousepad makes a lot more sense.

~~~
hinkley
> FCC Regulations mean you can transmit at a max of 300mW only

Is that new? When I was originally playing with dd-wrt I was under the
impression that 100 was the limit, discovered my AP was defaulting to
something like 70mW, and would allow you to go higher.

~~~
jandrese
You might be right. My memory is from several years ago when I was working
with some possibly dubious long range outdoor radios.

~~~
hinkley
The funny thing is that they don't seem to care about the directionality of
the signal. You fire 120mW in a sphere and they have opinions. Narrow 100mW
down to a (double) cone or a disc? No problemo.

Makes no goddamned sense to me.

------
bloopernova
I just wish that MX Master 3 had a couple of extra buttons by the thumb.

My 3 thumb buttons on my Logitech G500 are mapped to: Page Up, Page Down, and
Back. Clicking and holding the Page Up button can rapidly take me back to the
top of a page without moving my right hand to hit the home key on my keyboard.
It's pretty useful, in my opinion, to be able to roughly and quickly scroll
with Page Up/Down, then fine tune with the scroll wheel.

Looks like with the MX 3, I'd lose the back button though, because I really
don't like the "gesture button" they've added.

Is the thumb-wheel on the MX 3 "clickable"?

~~~
TheSoftwareGuy
Thumb buttons are hugely under-rated in my opinion. Its the sole reason I
bought my G600.

~~~
hinkley
I used to play a melee character in a game, and I had the buttons mapped to
autorun, stop autorun, and back up. I never had to move my hands to follow a
target, which greatly improved my uptime.

I think on the later mouse, with only two buttons, I retrained myself to use
'back up' to stop autorun, but it was important to me that I could mash the
first button to start running and not have to worry about how many times I hit
it.

Like OP said, for other apps I had it mapped to page-up/-down and back button
and it made it a lot easier to focus on the code or documentation I was
reading, instead of on navigating.

------
emsy
Regarding Logitech Mice, I have the Anywhere MX and the Anywhere MX 2S here. I
rarely used the old AMX but still, I got a defective left button switch after
about 5 years in which I used it probably less than 500 hours total. Changing
the switch is needlessly cumbersome, you have to remove rubber pads and
battery stickers (which can't really be removed without destroying them). But
the AMX feels solid and the on/off switch also functions as a protector for
the laser. You can also store the USB receiver between the batteries.

The AMX 2S is an absolute downgrade: Much cheaper build quality, no more
protection for the laser, no user removable battery. The old AMX came with a
leather pouch for transportation, the AMX 2S doesn't. On top of that, the
Bluetooth connection of the AMX 2S is terrible. I have frequent minute long
disconnects from my MBP at 20cm distance. Sometimes it won't connect at all.
And the battery doesn't last as long as the rechargeable batteries I put in my
AMX 1.

~~~
zymhan
The MX anywhere is not meant to compete with the MX/MX2S/MX3. The "Anywhere"
is a portable mouse, hence the laser cover. The MX 2S and 3 are meant to be
left on a desk.

~~~
emsy
No, I'm talking about Anywhere MX and Anywhere MX2, I lazily omitted the
Anywhere in my comment. Sorry for the confusion, I edited the original
comment.

~~~
zymhan
Ah okay, no worries

------
clutch89
The scroll wheel in the Master 3 is totally broken. It doesn’t register
scrolls properly. Within 10 seconds I noticed the issue. Same issue across
multiple devices and OS’s too. Others have noticed too, like here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/d6yo5j/anyone_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/d6yo5j/anyone_else_having_mx_master_3_scroll_issues/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body)

I returned mine and got a G604, which is a work of art, and you can load
settings into on-board memory so you can delete the Logitech software after
doing that.

~~~
9935c101ab17a66
Wow the G604 is a really good looking mouse as far as PC mice go.

------
stuart78
I use the Anywhere MX 2, which is quite good, and would love to try the Master
3, but I mouse left-handed. Would love to see more support from Logitech for
this mode, even if it came at a premium.

~~~
FranOntanaya
I wish the rubber grips didn't fail so easily on them, they are the first
thing to fall apart for me.

------
rkagerer
I'm really curious about the silkscreened ruler. Can anyone solve the mystery?

[https://blog.bolt.io/wp-
content/uploads/2019/10/DSC02786-102...](https://blog.bolt.io/wp-
content/uploads/2019/10/DSC02786-1024x683.jpg)

[https://blog.bolt.io/wp-
content/uploads/2019/10/DSC02791.jpg](https://blog.bolt.io/wp-
content/uploads/2019/10/DSC02791.jpg)

~~~
fmj
It's placed over the antenna for the Bluetooth LE chip. I'm assuming it's
related to antenna tuning/calibration.

~~~
GuB-42
That the ruler is related to the antenna tuning is the initial guess of the
author too, but he is unsure.

But come to think of it, why is the PCB silk-screened in the first place? I
don't think such a cheap board will ever get serviced by the manufacturer, and
slikscreening is cheap but not free.

My guess is that it is "just in case". If something goes wrong, the silkscreen
is there so that things can be fixed by an assembly line worker. And they
identified incorrect antenna dimensions as a potential problem and left a
ruler there. Turned out everything worked fine and the ruler wasn't necessary.

~~~
VectorLock
Virtually every board is going to need some kind of marking, so if you're
doing a silk screen anyways it almost free to add more stuff to that silk
screen.

------
css
Does the 3rd version fix the polling issues these mice have over Bluetooth?
Using the receiver works fine, but over Bluetooth it feels very laggy and
jerky to use. They don't offer a USB-C receiver yet.

Here is what it looks like to draw a circle using each protocol:
[https://imgur.com/a/RP2oLcn](https://imgur.com/a/RP2oLcn)

~~~
beanaroo
Which operating system are you using?

There was a regression in the Linux kernel regarding polling rate negotiation
that was fixed not too long ago

[https://i.imgur.com/q7NSMfR.png](https://i.imgur.com/q7NSMfR.png)

------
2bitencryption
Do they make high-quality mice like these for left-handed people?

I'm always jealous by this type of mouse, while I'm stuck using my cheap sad
ambidextrous Microsoft mouse.

~~~
Rebelgecko
Their ambi mice are decent. I use a G300S at work, and I think they have some
fancier mice that are also ambi while having features like wireless charging
and the toggle for smooth/ratcheted scrolling.

The only company I know of that makes an _actually_ left handed mouse is
Razer. Decent hardware, but if you're on a Mac their drivers are even worse
than Logitech's. There's nothing worse than having your mouse stop working
because the internet is down.

~~~
jmiserez
Evoluent sells a left-handed variant of their popular vertical mouse. Doesn't
have smooth scrolling though.

------
saltcod
Great mice but I’m surprised no one has mentioned weight. The master 3 is
141g! That’s a brick!

I’ve been hunting for a mouse with this kind of scroll wheel that was less
than 90g or so forever. 141g would kill my arm in a few hours.

~~~
verinus
Me too. I sold my MX Master as I felt it much too heavy to use...

------
dlevine
I use an MX Anywhere 2 at work and an MX Anywhere at home. I love both of them
(so much that I soldered in new microswitches when the original buttons on the
MX Anywhere wore out).

I have never tried an MX Master. I have been curious, but I don't need the
second scroll wheel.

I think the software is somewhat convoluted. My actual preference is that Mac
OS would support all of the functionality natively. I think it's stupid that
we need to use extra programs to get the keyboard/mouse to do what we want.

~~~
solnyshok
I have had one defective switch on AMX. But nothing like that on 2 AMX 2S that
I bought more than a year ago (one for office, one for home). I think they
improved something with AMX S2 switches.

------
open-paren
I'm glad they changed the scroll wheel–it was arguably the worst part of the
first one. I have had one for a few years, and the mechanical part that
determines whether the wheel is free spinning or ratcheting has a tendency to
slip over time, making the ratchet less effective until it is all gone. The
mouse needs to be opened up every few months to poke the part back down. This
is not an uncommon problem and I'm glad the mechanism has been changed.

------
mclightning
I see that Logitech ramped up their advertising investment again. I looked up
the mouse and it shows up on all popular youtube channels with crazy titles.

I remember same thing from the original Performance MX. Everybody said it was
a great mouse. I got it, it was terrible. It didn't work on most surfaces. It
didn't hold battery long.

Long story short, I will hold off until it stands the test of time for a bit.

------
optimiz3
Hope they bring the new tech over to the G502 (basically a wired version of
the Performance MX suitable for work and gaming).

~~~
pitaj
As someone who uses both, G502 has a very different form factor and feel in
the hand.

------
lmilcin
I no longer care about Logitech mouses after I had THREE premium mouses, in
succession, to die to the same problem for me personally and additionally one
mouse for a person that I recommended it to. All had exactly the same problem
-- double clicks registered when clicking left mouse button.

For a premium brand I find it completely unacceptable. Even though it is
possible to fix the problem ([https://www.instructables.com/id/Repair-mouse-
with-double-cl...](https://www.instructables.com/id/Repair-mouse-with-double-
click-problem/)), I gave up on Logitech mouses completely.

~~~
mng2
I had to replace the switches in my G100s after a few years, first the scroll
wheel button and then the left click. Definitely an unacceptable level of
longevity.

------
Navarr
I hope they bring some of the newer improvements and more of the MX Master
features to the MX Vertical.

I've found that I really appreciate the different ergonomics of a vertical
mouse, but I do miss my side wheel and unlocking scroll

~~~
sigzero
I really love the MX vertical mouse. The scroll wheel is the only current
bummer for me as well.

------
spectramax
Logitech has top quality hardware, but their software is degrading rapidly.

Why does Logitech need to update the mouse software every so often? Installing
fresh Windows 10 on a new computer, a popup automatically appears on the
bottom-right to download and install Logitech software - _without_ installing
anything. This is built-in ads for Windows essentially. Also, Logitech wants
us to connect to the internet to create a profile. It nags you constantly.

We need software engineers to push back on these things that are pushed on to
them by marketing execs.

------
jesusthatsgreat
I have an M510 and I love it but it needs to be taken apart and cleaned every
year or so. It accumulates an insane amount of crap inside it which if left
unchecked will eventually lead you to think there's a software issue or
wireless interference as your pages scroll up and down randomly by themselves.

Most people probably just replace mice once they start acting up because they
either don't want to bother cleaning it or else don't realise it can be taken
apart and cleaned easily which fixes 99% of mice issues.

------
LeSaucy
Also worthy to note that Logitech has decent macOS support.

~~~
digb
The MX Master 2 or whatever has been absolute trash for me on my work mac.
There's the standard issue with macs and third party mice where the "inertia"
or whatever of the mouse feels off, but more than that there has to be some
sort of interference because the thing just floats and jitters constantly.
Completely unusable, I gave it away to one of our finance guys.

------
bboygravity
Does anybody know of any MX Master 3 modding forums or other resources?

The firmware and electronics in these things are fine, but these mice are one
size fits none. In my case: way too small. I probably need one that's 2 times
the size + preferably vertical.

I was thinking of doing a mod where I convert an MX Master 3 to a much larger
MX vertical type thing. Shouldn't be too hard, but if I can think of this
someone probably already did it. Right?

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
Search for modding here. There is a lot of really interesting stuff.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/)

------
utopcell
I am a long-time user of the MX series, having used the master 1 and 2 and
multiple anywheres 1 and 2 for years, mainly for their free-scrolling wheels.
I was surprised when Microsoft upstaged them with their precision mouse line,
which has a "patented magnetic scrolling". It seems to me that Logitech is
just playing catch-up with the "MagSpeed" wheels on the master 3.

------
post_break
I have an MX master and now own two triathlons. I love them because one AA
battery lasts months, it's bluetooth or can use the receiver which the mouse
can store inside of it, and it supports three devices. All for $25. I pair it
to my iPad and use it or at work for 8 hours straight. Definitely check it out
since it's basically a baby MX master without the thumb scroll.

------
bonestamp2
I love this article and while reading it I realized that I wish I could scroll
down exactly one "page" with my mouse so I mapped the MX Master side
back/forward buttons to space/shift+space so now it's really nice to read long
articles like this using the button to scroll down one page instead of the
mousewheel.

Also nice for HN comment threads. :)

------
zmix
Could anyone, with industry ties, forward these threads, in which people are
fed up with the vendor supplied support software / drivers, each time they
come up (and the _do_ come up), to the appropriate decision makers?

Thank you!

------
brailsafe
Really wish the MX master 3 had a USB-C receiver. Bluetooth just doesn't cut
it sometimes

~~~
hughes
What BT issues have you had?

~~~
LeoNatan25
It’s slower, much more prone to noise, a lot of disconnects, etc. the dongle
just works.

There are other software bugs on macOS, such as smooth scrolling and inverted
scroll not working sometimes on Bluetooth.

~~~
robotmay
Interestingly the Logitech WiFi receiver for these mice can cause audio issues
on some wireless headphones. I briefly had a pair of Sennheisser headphones
and it picked up an interesting tick every few seconds. Though, to be honest,
I think that's more likely poor design from headphone makers.

------
polyterative
I liked the 2s engineering and design but it's excessive weight and
embarrassingly low pooling rate made me return it.

Picked up a 502SE which is perfectly addressing these issues with better
button feel and tracking.

No wireless tho, and the wheel kinda sucks

------
sudhirkhanger
As a coder while coding, how much mouse do you guys use? I try to minimize it
as much as possible. And it seems like it is easier to hit touchpad than to
grab an external mouse which is places 6-12 in away from center of the
keyboard.

~~~
evan_
I’ve used the apple magic trackpads since they came out. As you say, it’s so
much faster to just reach up and engage the touchpad surface, rather than to
locate, grasp, and move a mouse. Third party software (BetterTouchTool) opens
up virtually unlimited gestures. I’m never going back.

------
TheSpiceIsLife
I can't get excited about regular mice any more.

I bought a Razer Naga and mapped some buttons to [enter] and [backspace], plus
others.

Having a few keyboard keys on the mouse blows everything else mouse-like out
of the water, in my opinion.

------
euph0ria
Is there any equivalent high quality preferred-choice-by-many keyboard?

~~~
kcolford
Das Keyboard is the way to go my friend. They're absolutely lovely to type on.
Although any other mechanical keyboard is probably acceptable...

~~~
pathartl
Yeah I love the latest Das Model S Ultimate. The aluminum plate and the
keycaps feel very premium. The newer one's at work and I have an older gen at
home and I much prefer the newer.

------
krtkush
I have been using the original MX Master for about 4 years now and the mouse
has been a dream. Absolutely great build quality and perfect ergonomics (for a
right handed person).

------
eecc
Great rats, but my tendons could enjoy them more if the device was larger. I
don’t get why, once in the 100€ range, there’s no SMLXL bucketing

------
wolfgke
Does Logitech meanwhile again excellent cables mice? I would love to get one
of these superb Logitech mice in a cabled version.

~~~
baroffoos
Their gaming mice have cabled versions which are really nice.

------
akvadrako
I couldn't stand the 2S because the clicks were so loud.

Can anyone comment on if this has been fixed with the 3?

------
Unklejoe
Look at that beautiful replaceable battery :)

~~~
wlesieutre
My Logitech G700s has a AA NiMH battery in an easily replaceable door, no need
to open the mouse.

The battery still charges over USB if you have the mouse wired, and switches
to wireless when that's unplugged.

I like it a lot, if you run the battery down you can just pop a new one in and
put the dead one in the charger. But I assume the one they're using here gives
them higher capacity, so it's a trade-off.

~~~
TheGuyWhoCodes
I don't think it's just the capacity but the power efficiency. G700s has a
really low run time, something like a week per charge as a heavy user. The MX
2S can go about 2 months between chargers and the 3 should have an even better
run time.

~~~
wlesieutre
Hasn't been an issue for me, the cord lives on my desk and I just plug it
overnight every couple of days. If I forget, grab a charged AA and swap it
out.

------
yCloser
have the mx3, so far all good. but.

I use linux... yes it works as a standard 5 mouse buttons, but there is no
software for gestures or thumb scroll. Windows has those. Linux will probably
never have anything like that

(thumb gesture-button seems to trigger KeyPress Meta+TAB, binding it seems
not-so-easy)

------
gfiorav
I've mostly transitioned out of using mice. I guess I'm lucky my workflow
allows for that

------
firemelt
I hate it lacks the side scroll and they move it to thumb side scroll

------
ses1984
I want unlock able scroll on the mx ergo.

------
ReptileMan
Congratulations guys... 10 years later you rediscovered mx revolution -
probably your best mice ever.

------
tryptophan
Downside of such complicated mice with fancy circuit boards is that you can
have issues like my s2 had, where the thumb button got stuck. This somehow
caused a software lock, rendering the rest of the mouse unoperational; a nice
90$ paperweight. I don't mistreat my electronics either, it was not dropped or
anything like that. This sort of stuff should not happen on such an expensive
mouse. Coincidentally it happened 2 months after the warranty expired.

~~~
dimfeld
I had the same thing happen recently, and came across this Youtube video
detailing a fix:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFaLyoSQQo0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFaLyoSQQo0).

Essentially, you open up the mouse and loosen the internal screws on the thumb
button a little bit, which moves the board away from the rubber over the
button and relieves whatever pressure is keeping it pressed. You need a
screwdriver with a T5 Torx bit to open up some of the screws, but overall the
procedure is pretty easy and my mouse has been working great ever since.

~~~
scrollaway
I read the parent's comment, messed with the thumb button, and had the exact
same thing happen.

Now I read your comment, slid a screwdriver under the thumb rubber (didn't
bother opening the mouse) and that unfucked it.

Man…

