
Norway as a destination for tech founders - punnerud
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lawrencewintermeyer/2018/01/19/norway-calling-all-us-and-uk-tech-hipsters/#39a2d89158fb
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doug1001
i lived for two years in Oslo, Norway, but also spent time in Bergen in
Stavanger (west coast).

it's a beautiful country, but for a start-up? I have my doubts.

i have also lived in the Bay Area; live here now in fact.

Norway is the most expensive country i have ever lived in or visited--more
than SF, more than Manhattan, perhaps about the same as Tokyo, although i have
only made brief visits there for work.

Taxes are insanely high: income tax is on the level as Switzerland; VAT is
24.5%. Petrol prices are the highest in any country i have ever driven in.

lastly, working start-up hours (or even normal hours) is not easy during the
months of October through February when daylight's non-existent or negligible

~~~
_delirium
I don't think Norway ends up more expensive than SF or Manhattan for most
people. Yes, petty expenses like buying beer in a pub are high, but the
_really_ big expense for most people, rent, is far lower. You can get a nice,
modern, centrally located apartment in Oslo, without roommates or rats, for
$1300-1500/mo ($10-12k NOK). And you can get it down to more like $1000/mo
($8k NOK) if you're willing to commute a bit. Try getting something with that
budget in SF or Manhattan!

Taxes are high, but for entrepreneurs that's largely offset by: 1) no self-
employment payroll taxes, and 2) your taxes cover your full health insurance
costs. Once you add in the U.S.'s 15% payroll tax and health-insurance
premiums you don't really save much in many scenarios.

~~~
michaelchisari
The way I always put it is that it's better to be rich in America, but most
definitely, inarguably better to be poor in Norway, by almost every metric.

~~~
jokola
Scandinavia is great if you are rich. Sweden for instance would be a great
choice for anyone with a trust fund. You would have to pay almost no taxes and
still get all the services. It is becoming rich that is hard. Though you could
argue that a lot more people get the chance. The problem is that it has also
become increasingly hard to be frugal. Especially when it comes to cost of
housing, but also the cost of a good quality of life in general.

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Sytten
I personally worked in Denmark in a young startup. I believe conditions are
similar to Norway.

I found that the tech scene is very much alive and you can find VC quite
easily if you don't limit yourself to the country. The Nordic countries are
well connected and it is easy to get funded by Swedish VC for example while
being located in Denmark. It's also very easy to do business in the EU.

Has for the taxes, yes they are high, but you need to consider the high
quality of life you get in return. It is better than even Canada where I am
from. Stressed and unhappy employees are not going to perform well. I also
felt there was a common goal in the company, that I wasn't just a necessary
"resource" needed by the company. This is very different from the North
American way.

~~~
rdtsc
> Stressed and unhappy employees are not going to perform well

I like the sound of that. But I wonder why aren't there more startups then?

~~~
balladeer
Maybe because starting a startup itself comes with the baggage of stress and
unhappiness - so people, in general, are less inclined to take it up in the
first place?

I work at a startup in India and see how the founders are always busy and
manage just 4-5 hrs of sleep at best and I've heard it was way worse in the
beginning. So this doesn't paint a rosy picture. In fact I gave up on doing my
own start up dream just because of this - I figured the stress and pressure
isn't something I can handle or is worth the sacrifice for me. _(By the way,
my friend and colleague started the venture with two other people and it 's
doing "okay" \- it's been just two years. PS - I don't regret it, from what I
saw I knew I would not have been able to handle it; add the cash issue for
almost 9 months - they literally lived on shoestring)_

So if for someone (and I am not alone of course) who is from a country where
work life conditions checks, rules that ensure a healthy work-life balance, or
ensure work place safety[0] are non existent - and pretty much zero employee
rights for all practical purposes, it would be even more unappealing to
someone from a place like Norway where people take these things for granted.
Now, what I am talking about is the general, I am sure there are exceptions
everywhere.

[0] Yes, for e.g. pretty much every tech park building I have worked in in
Bangalore if there was a fire either a lot of people would die in stampede,
jumping from the windows, or actually in fire. Such safety checks were a joke
10 yrs ago and they still are.

~~~
rdtsc
> so people, in general, are less inclined to take it up in the first place?

Yeah, the dark side of startups is that many fail, people are laid off,
funding dries out, etc. VCes swoop in and try another startup and so on. That
helps grow unicorns as they say, but it also based on quite a bit of pain and
uncertainty for workers.

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dawhizkid
I found Oslo boring and expensive. A half pint of beer was $11 and a mediocre
dish at an average restaurant will set you back at least $20.

~~~
usaphp
And it’s cold as well.

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Oberbaumbrucke
I'm sure the wealth tax of ca 1% of your net worth per year and the weather
would put off a fair few people for making the move.

~~~
CRidge
That would be my one major drawback against starting up here in Norway. I've
seen calculations of how companies like Facebook would fare if they started up
in Norway, and it wasn't pretty. You pay tax on the value of your shares, even
if the company isn't making money...

However, for start-ups that aren't looking to have hundreds of millions of
users/customers before breaking even, it is still worth a shot!

~~~
olavgg
I'm from Norway and working for a startup. You do not have to pay tax for the
value of your shares, but for the assets that the company own. For a tech
startup that means laptops and workstations.

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dogma1138
With the cost of employemnt and lack of VCs I doubt they would be very
successful.

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jijji
Gas prices in Norway are 3.5x what they are in the u.s. Everything in Norway
is about 3x the price of the u.s. Most parts of Norway are rural, even simple
things are a far away drive. The people are nice, but to say that everyone
speaks english over there is also a stretch. Maybe 25% speak english, if that.
You also have to pay to use the bathroom. It is also very cold there most of
the year. Money does go very fast over there, the fastest I have seen in any
country. Is it good for a startup? If money is your concern, then no IMHO.

Sorry for telling the truth because I've lived there... :) Maybe you can find
a way to delete this post and keep all the flowery ones.

~~~
lobster_johnson
Norwegian here who currently lives in the US. About everything in your comment
sounds wrong to me, except for the statement that gas is more expensive.

English has been part of the mandatory elementary school curriculum since
1974, and I would say that pretty much everyone knows English quite well
except for a minority of older people in rural areas.

Norway being a cold, wintery country is something of a fantasy. The climate is
much milder than you might except from the latitude. It's not very different
from New England, though summers are not quite as hot.

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nkkollaw
Sure. So that you can run out of money in 1 mo. instead of 6 in S.F. :-/

Startups that need to prove their value proposition before the money runs out
should come to Poland. Very techy (Warsaw, Wroclaw in particular), and you
have 2 years instead of 6 months (or 1) because of the extremely low cost of
living. As a plus, really cheap beer and beautiful women.

~~~
always_good
Mexico has the advantage of beaches and a few hour plane ride from the States
to visit your loved ones. And better weather and an easier language.

Poland is certainly a great place as well. As I get older though it's nice
being a 2 hour plane ride from my aging parents in Texas.

~~~
nkkollaw
If we're talking about North America, sure--if there are a lot of devs and not
a lot of crime (no idea).

~~~
Kpourdeilami
Another very good option in North America is the Kitchener-Waterloo region in
Ontario.

Pros:

\- Significantly lower rent (~640 USD/mo for a one bedroom apartment in one of
the safest neighbourhoods of Waterloo)

\- Low crime rate and very safe

\- Access to talent that has experience working for SV companies (facebook,
google, amazon, apple, etc.)

\- Active 24/7\. Even at 4am in the morning, there are students walking home
from the library.

\- You don't have to learn a new language

Cons:

\- Bad weather

\- An hour drive to the international airport in Toronto

\- Nothing else to do in the city other than working

\- Public transit only runs until midnight

~~~
nkkollaw
I'd pick that over Mexico any day.

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netsharc
The author seems to ramble a bit about how amazing Norway is, and then seems
to use the article to talk to the PM on a first name basis. Does he know her
personally, or would I be correct to assume he's a condescending jackass?

~~~
CRidge
If you ask a Norwegian: "Did you hear what Erna said yesterday?", everyone
will know who you're talking about. That's just the kind of country Norway is
;)

