
Ask HN: Unemployed for 2 years, looking to find a steady programming job - achicagodevdude
I&#x27;m an experienced web developer, always worked in Chicago, but now I&#x27;m having trouble finding a company that would hire me. I feel like I&#x27;ve been displaced from the programming industry.<p>* Got my first web dev job in 2007<p>* Graduated 2007 with an unrelated degree<p>* Worked on-and-off. I never had another job lined up when I left&#x2F;laid off from the old one.<p>* Looking to settle into a salaried job. I don&#x27;t even know what it&#x27;s like to be a salaried employee. All the job offers I could get have been contract-to-hire, and they paid well below average.<p>Based on the last point, I quickly learned that &quot;being a bargain&quot; doesn&#x27;t make you any more employable. In fact, I&#x27;m starting to think there is a correlation between programmers with low salaries and having more difficulty finding jobs.<p>I don&#x27;t know where to begin filtering for higher yields in getting interviews. At this point, I&#x27;m just throwing anything at the wall waiting for something to stick.<p>The programming job doesn&#x27;t have to be web dev related. Maybe the glut of bootcamp graduates is making it harder for me to stay relevant? I am okay with working in one of the bigger but non-sexy places if they are the easier places to get in. So what are some places in the Chicago area that:<p>* Don&#x27;t care what tech stack you&#x27;ve used<p>* Have a large enough tech team to tolerate a greater ramp-up time for new hires<p>* Years in the field mean less to them, because they can just hire and place someone where it&#x27;s appropriate<p>So where to begin changing my approach so I get higher yields for interviews, and offers?
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partisan
Have you tried city or utility jobs? They are not as sexy, but they have the
potential to meet every one of your requirements.

Secondly, the way you talk about your abilities makes me want to shake you.
You are no less capable than the next person. You're not going to be the next
big developer evangelist or the founder of some amazing startup, but neither
are 99% of the other people. HN is a concentration of successful, smart
people. It can skew the way you view yourself so don't use this site as a
barometer for your skills.

Also, you sound depressed and defeated and that is understandable after what
seems like a constant onslaught of rejection, but the only way to change that
is by building your own self worth and confidence in your skills. You can't
expect an employer to meet you where you are so you have to meet them where
they are. Find your passion in this field and run with it.

I have 13 years in the industry and I still feel like a fraud most days. That
doesn't seem to go away.

------
chuck32
Seems like you are looking for a company who will accommodate your needs (i.e.
"Don't care what tech stack you've used") but maybe you need to think about
what you can do yourself to accommodate what companies need from you?

You say you're looking for somewhere that will "tolerate a greater ramp-up
time for new hires" and thats fair enough but there are also plenty of things
you can be doing now to prepare for a job to minimize the ramp-up time.

Also your approach of "looking for a job as a web dev, or anything really" is
not going to look very attractive to employers. I'm sure you wont be saying
that in an interview of course but why would they hire someone with that
attitude when there are plenty of people who can say "I love working with
Rails/Python/Javascript/whatever because x, y and z and even though I've been
unemployed recently I've done this, this and this which is related to this
technology".

I'm not saying you have to become one of these web-dev obsessed hacker-newsy
types who spend all their free time reading tech blogs and experimenting with
no-sql databases but at least pretend to have an interest in one or two
particular aspects of web development and spend a bit of time to code
something or do something to demonstrate that interest.

~~~
achicagodevdude
I've had a Github profile for a couple of years, usually filled with some
graphics programming or game projects, coded in C#. That's one of the
languages I'd be interested in finding a job in. In 3 years went from learning
what a reference type in C# is, to writing a graphics engine using .NET that
uses object pooling for best performance, and can be implemented as a DLL for
other projects. And learning HLSL for writing my own shaders, doing thing like
optimize a parallel split shadow mapping algorithm to run in a single pass
within the 512 instructions limit of the Shader Model 3.0 spec.

I also made a software rasterizer in JavaScript, it's very small in size uses
no 3rd party libraries but supports z-depth checking and texture mapping.

As you can see I like doing graphics stuff in my spare time. But I'm not sure
how to sell my skills in those projects to more "mainstream" web development
jobs. My real world JS work is not as novel or even up to current standards.
At the last startup I worked on a front end JS code base totaling over 25K
lines. And it didn't use any modules. No Grunt or Webpack, no packages to
automate builds, bunch of jQuery function calls with little grouping to them-
it is JS but JS circa 2009.

So basically I have some novel projects but my dev practices may be "out of
time" with certain companies. So I'm looking to see how to show the better
side of my skill set.

~~~
chuck32
Ok well it sounds like you've done some pretty solid work there and should
have things to talk about in an interview. Have you ever gotten an feedback
from employers or recruiters as to why you were not picked for a job?

~~~
achicagodevdude
It's usually pretty generic stuff. I wasn't a good fit, or they found someone
else that's a better candidate, etc. Liability reasons cause them to withhold
details. Many people consider all interviews practice, but practice only makes
you better if you get proper feedback.

------
Mz
The Gig Economy is on the rise. I keep seeing posts similar to yours saying "I
have been unemployed for a year a longer. How do I fix this?" Meanwhile, I
have seen articles that suggest that by 2020, about 40% of the US economy will
be gig work/freelancers/contractors and similar.

Let me suggest you look for paid work. You can keep looking for a job too, but
just figure out how to get money coming in the door.

~~~
achicagodevdude
Well, I started in 2007 so your projected statistic wouldn't have been very
relevant. In 2007 I should have been able to get a full-time job more easily,
yeah? Yet even in 2007-13 I only have gotten cheap contractor offers.

I'm not interested in part time gigs. My contract jobs pay too low, highest
paid one was $25/hr. I'm looking to settle down for a salaried position with
benefits (as any decent job would have) while I still can. Nearly all the jobs
on the local boards are still full-time with benefits.

~~~
ahazred8ta
Go meet more people in person who already work in the industry -
[https://www.meetup.com/topics/web-
development/us/il/chicago/](https://www.meetup.com/topics/web-
development/us/il/chicago/)

------
achicagodevdude
By the way, I've been with countless recruiters in the past. They haven't been
very helpful.

I've been to their offices a few times, have been on many phone calls and get
moved around from job opening to job opening but I never have gotten an offer
because of a job recruiter.

Currently I use BuiltInChicago, Indeed, Craigslist, WeWorkRemotely, Angel.co,
and LinkedIn for sending in applications.

I still need the following questions answered, as mentioned in the OP...

What are some places in the Chicago area that:

* Don't care what tech stack you've used?

* Have a large enough tech team to tolerate a greater ramp-up time for new hires?

* Years in the field mean less to them, because they can just hire and place someone where it's appropriate?

~~~
clark-kent
Use recruiters, they are very good in landing you interviews, put your side
projects on your resume and bring them up during interviews. Try hired.com.
The most important thing is to get exposure to as many job interviews as
possible. I have no doubt that you will land a job soon.

------
telebone_man
In answer to your questions..

\- Don't care what tech stack you've used

I would argue that most companies aren't too concerned about your tech-stack.
You're applying to businesses with dev's who like you appreciate development
skills are transferable to other stacks and languages.

HOWEVER, if you are one of 10 applicants, of which 2 just happen to have
experience in their tech-stack, then they will get preference over you. This
is a logical route for them to go down.

\- Have a large enough tech team to tolerate a greater ramp-up time for new
hires

If this was the case, they'd be looking for 'juniors'. If you're applying for
anything other than that, assume that they don't have the capability to
tolerate a slow learning curve.

\- Worked on-and-off. I never had another job lined up when I left/laid off
from the old one.

If I see a CV with noticeable gaps in employment, I will put it to the bottom
of the pile. I suggest you fill in those gaps with something.. personal
projects.. volunteering.. you must have been doing something other than
looking for your next job?

\- Years in the field mean less to them because they can just hire and place
someone where it's appropriate

Again I think the majority of businesses don't care too much about years, as
such. Context matters. Again, if you're one 10 applicants, and the other 9
have 5 more years than you, then they'll preference them.

Can I suggest you reconsider your approach to applying? 1000 applications in 3
years are almost 1 a day. That's crazy. Your CV must be all over the place,
and that isn't always a good thing (for example, if you've adjusted it over
time, it may look like you were lying before).

Have you considered sending a portfolio with your applications?

~~~
achicagodevdude
I do send my resumes with a list of projects in them, with Github links. Only
a few have said anything about them. If you want to take a look, it's here:
github.com/ccajas

If I have to be considered as a junior to be on boarded and learning from
other, so be it. I never had much guidance from more experienced people
anyway. Small companies usually cannot provide that, so it's possibly time to
get a fresh start as a junior at a large company. A good old "soft reset"
might be the thing my career needs. I'll remove past jobs from my resume, and
just keep my education info and list of projects.

> Can I suggest you reconsider your approach to applying?

Yes, you can suggest that. What other approaches do you recommend for
applying?

~~~
telebone_man
Something other than what you've done 1000 times?

------
sbahr001
Best thing to do is create a portfolio with the latest tech stacks, and make
them open source so they can see what your capable of.

------
throwmeaway32
Have you actually found positions you're interested in?

Have you been applying, but not getting interviews?

Have you been getting interviews but not succeeding?

~~~
achicagodevdude
>Have you actually found positions you're interested in?

Yes.

>Have you been applying, but not getting interviews?

about 1000 applications since late 2014, and about 20 interviews

>Have you been getting interviews but not succeeding?

No offers from any interviews in the current job hunt.

What is the usual percentage of offers that I should expect? How many
applications is the usual to send before someone gets their first offer?

~~~
throwmeaway32
1000 applications and 20 interviews in around ~3 years?

I don't have stats to back up my opinion but that to me is crazy crazy low
(unless you were applying for completely unsuitable jobs).

\- Do you alter your resume per applications?

\- Is there a common theme amongst positions you're applying for? (i.e.
'junior' or 'senior' etc) or are you applying for just every dev role you see?

\- Do you do any networking (i.e. meetups?)

\- Would you be willing to share your resume? (perhaps remove identifiable
things if you are concerned).

\- Can you share some links to recent job postings you've applied for?

~~~
achicagodevdude
Finally, I can show my resume (with most names redacted)

[https://www.dropbox.com/s/6290viuyjbr09jc/web_resume_swe.pdf...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/6290viuyjbr09jc/web_resume_swe.pdf?dl=0)

~~~
throwmeaway32
I agree with another poster regarding the 'not very compelling' and that I
would classify you in the junior range of experience.

Honest feedback coming up..

Initial advice:-

\- Remove 'professional' from the experience subtitle, it immediately frames
your resume to me that there will be non-professional experience later on and
therefore you might not have much professional experience.

\- Remove the professional and personal experiences programming
languages/tools parts, merge them into one. Rank them in order of your overall
experience, splitting them makes it look amateurish.

\- If you've been unemployed for 2 years, then I would expect your github
profile to be way more active if you're really looking and planning to get a
job.

\- A lot of your experience descriptions don't really mention much tech and
come across as vague; reading your resume fills me with doubtful questions
about you rather than answers that make me picture you clearly in your head
and what your capabilities are.

i.e. 'Migration of [startup's] corporate websites and blogs to a new host' \-
what tech were they running on?, what tech did you move them to?

'Addressed the needs of dozens of business and non-profit clients to improve
their online presence via CMS websites' \- what does this even mean? You made
some wordpress sites? You wrote your own framework?

\- Have you been practising for interviews? (phone and onsite), P.S. This
advice is given based on the variable state of interviews that are
given.....buy a whiteboard and pen and practise coding and explaining your
thoughts whilst writing, revise for the interview ('Cracking the coding
interview' etc).

~~~
achicagodevdude
Regarding interviews I hardly get any algorithm questions that are found in
CTCI.

Most of the technical interviews ask me practical knowledge on languages or
tools, like how would I write a query for some problem, build a simple splash
page with X set of features, etc.

It may be more of a west coast thing to ask CTCI questions. Interview styles
might be like hip hop or food styles...it probably varies by reason. Local
companies don't ask them much. The only companies that asked me those are
Amazon and TripleByte.

I don't know of any resources for mock interviews.. my friends and family
aren't familiar enough with my work to do a proper one. There doesn't seem to
be much of a market for professionals to do mock interviews, which I find
interesting.

Also, looking into the future, when I get my next job, what can I do _on the
job_ that will keep my interview skills fresh?

------
Glibaudio
@achicagodevdude

If you're open to chatting 1:1 I could try and give you some advice.

Do you have a profile I can DM you at?

~~~
achicagodevdude
I'm newish to HN so I don't know if I can DM you through here. Do you mean
another website, such as LinkedIn?

------
stevenwu
You are right to think that there is a correlation between previous salaries
and difficulty in finding jobs. In an ideal world, if your true worth is
$X/year but you're willing to work for $(0.90X)/year, then you should be able
to nab a job right? After all, you're a bargain. I struggled with this myself
as a student job hunting, fighting the mentality of self-worth. All my jobs
previous to my new one were low pay for our industry (highest was $25/hr CAD).
As someone who's had to learn to embrace this mental shift when negotiating
with much better offers relative to what I was used to, the first thing I will
say is that you are spot on: a race to the bottom helps no one.

So OK, let's talk about your main question: where to begin to command
interviews and ultimately a better salary? The advice here so far has been
standard: (a) look outside of one area (b) do side projects and (c) talk to
recruiters/network. This is fine advice, but IMO, not the most helpful. Advice
like "find your niche" is better... but that is a difficult task on its own,
to decide on one path that is by definition obscure.

Again I will draw from personal experience to try and share what I've learned.
What worked most for me was to aim for a dream job, and to do things that
would lead to building skills that would make me qualified for this dream job.
I was in my 3rd year of undergrad - at the time, it was to work in an NBA
front office - I was studying stats, and didn't have many interests besides
having fun and following basketball. In following this pursuit to its limit, I
learned many skills along the way _that I didn 't have until I decided what I
most wanted_: web scraping, web development, databases, scripting, algorithm
development, computational statistics, explaining statistics to non-technical
users, trying to build a business, etc. Side projects, building a network
(both local and out of town), and finding my niche (data science + web dev +
product skills) _resulted from this goal_. They would have never happened on
my own initiative - I would have been one of many people dreaming of app ideas
and side projects to start but never finish. This has a nice benefit that
comes for free: you are now different than the rest. Your perspective to
solving problems and your experiences will be unique (to what degree, matters
based on whatever it is you choose).

The downside of my advice is that it is not a short fix: myself, I am now 3-4
years from when I started this story, as I am soon to graduate from my MSc
Stats. But you can accelerate this process, and I can tell you it works:
applying to jobs coming out of my undergrad, I only heard from companies that
you wouldn't recognize. This year, I got on-sites at Amazon and Capital One
before deciding to accept a dream job offer at Shopify. You can do it - and I
hope that this is an answer and story that can help you in your search of
where to begin your change in approach.

P.S., when you get there, do not underestimate the truth behind how useful
resources like CTCI, whiteboarding, etc. are for the interview stage.

------
smt88
Talk to a recruiter

~~~
achicagodevdude
I've already tried. None of the recruiting firms have been able to lead me to
job offers. I got a few interviews, but that's it.

There's a lot of detail in my original post, so you would need to provide more
detailed, personalized advice. "talk to a recruiter" would be already
attempted for someone that's been on the job search as long as I have.

~~~
smt88
Check out Rural Sourcing. They look for bargain devs specifically.

~~~
ahazred8ta
as long as you relocate to one of their four locations...

[https://www.ruralsourcing.com/about-rsi/development-
centers/](https://www.ruralsourcing.com/about-rsi/development-centers/)

