
Inside the Marriott-Starwood Loyalty Program Turbulence - jedwhite
https://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-the-marriott-starwood-loyalty-program-turbulence-1543416010
======
pdx_flyer
I travel 80% of the year and before the merger, I was splitting my stays
between Starwood and Hyatt. Occasionally I would be forced to stay at a Hilton
or Marriott because of smaller market coverage.

Since the merger, I have barely stayed at Starwood/Marriott and don't plan on
giving much business to them next year.

I typically stay at hotels 150-200 nights a year and with Starwood's upper
tier, I was being treated very well and never had issues getting an agent on
the phone for changes. Now, at the same level (Platinum Premier w/Ambassador),
I have found myself spending more time waiting to talk to an agent and basic
requests going unfulfilled.

Add to this that Marriott's website is one of the worst I have ever used and I
just don't see much reason to stick around.

~~~
chrisseaton
> with Starwood's upper tier, I was being treated very well

What do you get out of hotel rewards? With airline rewards I can upgrade to
first, which is a pretty big deal to be able to do and makes a massive
difference to my comfort. What do you get with hotels? A suite instead of a
room? Doesn't seem worth it? Free hotel stays for personal use? Do you want to
stay in a same corporate business hotels that you are doing a lot for business
in your free time as well?

Hilton give me a free bottle of water when I stay. It's not very inspiring.

~~~
wahern
> What do you get out of hotel rewards

Starwood in particular

1) used to have great deals for converting points to airline miles,

2) higher tiers earned very generous point multiples, and

3) offered a pay-with-points structure that was exceptionally generous all
around--tons of points earned at higher-end properties which went really far
at lower-end properties.

In addition, an AMEX Platinum card provided Gold tier membership, and the AMEX
Starwood card compounded your point multiples--basically you just kept your
Platinum current but paid for everything with the Starwood card. Moochers like
me could enjoy many of the same perks as power travelers. For several years I
think I spent at least as many free nights at Starwood properties as paid,
including several paid vacations with family--it was amazing how far points
went at Fourpoint properties in Asia.

Since the Marriott merger the calculus sucks. IIRC Chase Card + Hilton Honors
is the best deal now, but nothing will ever be as amazing as the AMEX +
Starwood program. I was religious about staying at Starwood properties, even
if I had to pay a premium in a particular city. But lately I'm as likely to
stay at a Marriott as any other hotel.

------
cblock811
Having worked for both companies in my old career this is unsurprising.
Marriott has a history of changing things for the worse.

One great example is when they bought Ritz Carlton. They said they wouldn't
change much, and then did a sweeping rebranding (changing a lot of internal
verbiage, changing the 20 basics to the 12 service values, etc). A lot of the
veterans felt like the brand lost a core part of its identity then.

Starwood's rewards program was award winning and pretty much everyone I knew
considered it best in the industry. It's unfortunate that they bought such a
great program and can't even integrate it with theirs. It's really sad and I
can't imagine them salvaging it.

------
jpatokal
One data point: I'm a former Marriott loyalist and was Platinum for many years
in my 100% travel days. I travel less now, so I was down to just Gold, which
was still fine... but when the plans were merged and that became "Gold Elite"
(read: the new Silver), they stripped away lounge access: no more free
breakfast, no more access to a quiet place to work, have a drink or coffee
with a friend, etc.

So now I don't book with Marriott/SPG anymore. Why would I?

~~~
cletus
Me too, basically. I had Gold status (30 nights) with lounge access, which was
super-useful. Now that got shifted to Platinum (50 nights), Marriott is a much
tougher sell.

But there are credit cards that will (as of 2019) give you 15 elite qualifying
nights per year so Platinum will be "only" 35 nights... not that much
different.

The SPG Gold status was about the last useful benefit I got from Amex platinum
though so that card is probably dead to me now.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _I had Gold status (30 nights) with lounge access, which was super-useful.
> Now that got shifted to Platinum (50 nights)_

Marriott seems to be running into the same problem as American airline
rewards: counting nights and miles, only, doesn't adequately differentiate
between high-spend and low-spend nights and miles. So you have to set the
nightly rate such that someone staying at your cheapest property can access
perks at the most-expensive property. That, in turn, ends up making the perks
less valuable for those who frequent your pricy properties. (This is Gresham's
Law [1].)

The loyalty programs should have been kept separate, with the benefit of high-
value programs getting credit at low-value ones (but not the other way, at
least not at parity).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law)

~~~
bdod6
This sounds like a misinterpretation of Gresham's Law. That's specifically
talking about currency, which I suppose in this case would be the reward
points. There is no "good" vs "bad" version of the currency though. Certain
types of points are not driving other types of points out of circulation. The
value of the points depends on how you use them, with people more eager to
spend points on high-value redemptions.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _There is no "good" vs "bad" version of the currency though. Certain types
> of points are not driving other types of points out of circulation_

Imagine Marriott has two brands: Fairfield Inn and Ritz-Carlton. They each
have a rewards program which grants one free night for every night stayed.

Now suppose, in a fit of idiocy, the rewards programs are made cross-
compatible. So a Ritz-Carlton reward night can be spent at Fairfield Inn and
vice versa. Where do you think the rewards will be earned? Where do you think
they'll be spent? The "bad" (Fairfield Inn rewards) drove out the "good"
(Ritz-Carlton rewards).

I accentuated the number of brands, magnitude of their value difference and
rewards program juiciness. This was to bring into relief the resulting effect.
In reality, these terms--and the effect--are smaller. Still, Gresham's law
applies if one treats rewards nights earned at different hotels as different
currencies. They've simply, now, been brought into a currency union.

~~~
bdod6
The issue I'm having with this comparison is that you are equating the "nights
stayed" with the points earned (the more accurate currency).

>They each have a rewards program which grants one free night for every night
stayed.

It's a lot more fair to say for every $1000 spent, you have enough points to
redeem a free night. In which case, some people might choose to spend more
nights at the cheaper Fairfield Inn, and some might choose to stay fewer
nights at the luxury Ritz. The bad money is not driving out the good.

It's true when it comes to qualifying nights, people will try to hit elite
night requirements at cheaper properties. But that's not driving out the
business for higher-end properties. Especially because award redemption is
(mostly) based on how much you spend, not how many nights you stay.

------
mattlong
Funny, I've been unable to get credit for any of my stays Marriott hotels in
the last year. I rarely stay in Marriott/Starwood, so I assumed that my
loyalty account had just expired or otherwise gotten in to a bad state even
though I could still log in to the account online. I don't stay in hotels
enough to get to higher rewards tiers so I just wrote it off. This likely
explains all my failed attempts to accrue nights...

~~~
dsl
At least you could log in. After I merged my Mariott and SPG accounts, trying
to log in to either one is met with a "You have already merged this account"
error.

------
cthalupa
I guess I'm one of the odd people out that hasn't had a real problem with the
merger. I'm only a Platinum member, so I can't speak to perks at highest
levels, but I've had no problem getting ahold of regular Platinum customer
service. I've also had no trouble getting room upgrades (I've ALWAYS had to
ask for them, despite the claims of 'automatic' upgrades), no trouble getting
early/late checkout, still get treated by staff like they care about me as
someone with an upper tier loyalty status, etc. No technical issues, and all
of my stays have recorded just fine (knock on wood!).

On top of the status perks being the same, I'm loving the increased
availability of hotels. There's been times where I've wanted to book at a
specific Starwood property, but because it's rates were way higher than they
normally are (e.g. 220/night to nearly 500/night), I'd end up fairly
downmarket in comparison because I don't want any pushback on my expense
report. The addition of Marriott properties has solved that for me a couple of
times already this year - the W or St. Regis is way up, but the Ritz-Carlton
or JW Marriott have been reasonable.

I will say I have found the lounges in Marriott properties to be a little less
nice than their Starwood compatriots, however.

~~~
patio11
For what it's worth, I do +/\- 50 days a year and haven't noticed anything
aside from the migration process being clumsy from a website UX perspective.

------
gesman
I never gave a sh __about worthless hotel rewards inviting you to stick with
their brand, pay more and sacrifice more important reasons for questionable
(always in a future) benefits.

I choose hotel for proximity or convenience to my destination, or cost.

Hence this loyalty turbulence is largely a non-event for me.

I never played hotel currency games and when their values goes down - it does
not affect my decision to stay at that hotel or at their competition next
door.

------
kyleblarson
I've been SPG platinum for the last 6 years and am also lifetime gold. The big
pain point for me is that you can no longer qualify by stays OR nights. I
don't travel quite enough to meet the platinum qualification by nights but
always did with stays. Given that I have no chance of requalifying for
platinum next year I'll be shifting my spend to other brands to see how they
treat their frequent guests.

~~~
cthalupa
The Starwood Amex is going from 5 qualifying night credit to 15 qualifying
night credit next year. It might be enough to get me plat premier some years,
so I'm excited about that.

Would the extra 10 nights on it help you get regular Plat on nights vs. stays?

~~~
kyleblarson
Unfortunately no as the plat night requirement also bumped up to 75 from 50.
I'm a big Kimpton fan so now that IHG bought them I shifted enough of my
travel this year to IHG to qualify for Spire Elite. I doubt the treatment will
be as good as SPG Plat but we shall see.

~~~
cthalupa
Platinum is still 50 nights, and has basically all the same perks. You do go
from 10 suite night awards to 5 suite night awards

The 75 night tier gets you your additional 5 awards back, and bumps you up to
75% point bonus.

------
triviatise
Loved the old SPG. By far the best perk was getting 1 point per dollar, then
being able to transfer that to almost every airline. American was 20K points
for 25K miles. International Business class tickets would be around 120K miles
round trip, so $100K spend for $5K plane tickets (5% return). Back in the day
american used to count all miles towards the 2M mile club (lifetime platinum),
so I was able enter it mainly using credit card earned miles.

Hotel stays were often times 12K points for a $400/night hotel in maui (3.3%
return).

When they converted SPG to marriott they did it at a 1spg:3marriott conversion
rate, but ongoing only earns at a $1:2 point rate. The card is a significantly
worse value.

------
simonebrunozzi
Then, question for all the readers: what's the best loyalty program now, for
someone who doesn't travel too much? (50 nights/year).

~~~
cthalupa
I would argue the SPG/Marriott program is still excellent at 50 nights a year.
That's still Platinum status, and some of my other posts in here detail the
benefits I enjoy from plat status.

------
kilroy123
I recently tried to transfer miles from Marriott to another airline.

What a nightmare. The miles apparently got "lost". I had to make many phone
calls which meant being on hold for 30 minutes each time.

Wasted probably a full work day trying to sort everything out with them.

Eventually, I just gave up as I didn't want to waste more time with this
company.

About 5 weeks later my miles appeared in the airline account. Very frustrating
experience.

------
ggm
Because of stuffups I now have three Marriott account I can't merge. Nightmare
of lemon scented towel proportions except for the moment of discretionary
payback: choice of hotel. Vote with your feet people.

------
neonate
[https://outline.com/cwFG2V](https://outline.com/cwFG2V)

------
atlasunshrugged
And then there's this: [https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/30/starwood-hotels-
says-500-m...](https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/30/starwood-hotels-
says-500-million-guest-records-stolen-in-massive-data-
breach/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29)

Tl;dr: 500m guest records stolen from Starwood in data breach

------
ryanmarsh
_Most involved data conversion and software bugs._

I tried to book a haircut using my barber’s new online reservation thing. Of
course it was all fucked up.

Everything’s fucked up and no one cares. I wonder what it will take to change
the mentality around quality/testing in these companies.

~~~
whitepoplar
Most businesses just don't seem to respect good/working tech. Even though it's
often critical to their bottom line, they'll think "$5,000?! My idiot nephew
could do it for $100. Those coder monkeys think what they do is soooo hard as
to charge $5,000?? Ha! Look, this guy here says he can do it for $250." <1
year later> "I hate tech and every techie. They think they're god's gift to
humanity. My system never works. I paid good money for it" ($250). I think the
corporate equivalent to that is, "It costs _what_?! Outsource it overseas
right now!"

~~~
spydum
I don’t believe this is exactly right: the major problem is most businesses
can’t distinguish which techies are worth $250 or $5,000 up front. So they
make the choice of going cheap and hoping it works out. Some of the few do go
the premium route, and still end up in a project failure or overrun. So can
you fault them?

~~~
whitepoplar
You're right, but I think the general disdain for tech/techies is upstream of
their inability to distinguish. Though it's a huge, huge problem trying to
identify who/what is worth it and who/what isn't.

