
From carpool to deadpool: Ridejoy’s startup journey - jcampbell1
http://blog.ridejoy.com/from-carpool-to-deadpool-ridejoys-startup-journey/
======
hyperbovine
I have used CL rideshare perhaps 40 times for travel between northern &
southern California in the past few years, and I personally am glad to see
Ridejoy and other attempts at commercializing it fail. The service works fine
as it is: free, informal, fast. The last thing it needs is a bunch of annoying
startups invading, all crowing about "untapped markets" and how "passionate"
they are to enable social this-or-that--an act which invariably strikes me as
mercenary and disingenuous. In short, I can see why CL would issue the C&D.

The "anonymous and sometimes sketchy rides posted every year" line is
particularly irksome as it so perfectly conveys the annoying disdain techies
have for things that don't sport a slick iPhone app and/or (attempt to) make
money. The truth is (confirmed over many hours of conversation with fellow
riders and drivers) sketchy rides are both obvious and exceedingly rare. A few
simple rules (like physically talking to the rider/driver ahead of time,
meeting in a public place, etc.) are sufficient to ensure a smooth experience.

~~~
kfk
Yes, I did not like the way they were doing things. No, I don't think leaving
it up to CL is the solution. I had a guy once screaming very badly at me for
being 10 min late, this kind of people cannot be spotted easily, you need some
kind of review system.

Also, regular travelers can't organize well on CL. What's, say, 10-15 dollars
a year to get a decent platform? Yet, I know, nobody wants to pay for that,
chicken and egg, etc., but the market is there, of course it's there, people
are moving all the time...

~~~
bsirkia
CL Rideshare is funny because like you say, it works for 18-50 year old males
that are willing to research the "few simple rules" perfectly fine, so about
half a million people. There's no way that half a million people, out of 330
million Americans, is the full market of people that would be willing to do a
rideshare. I think there's a case to be made that Craigslist is keeping that
number from growing by not improving the level of trust they add, and have
made it difficult for others to innovate in the space by (justifiably or not)
keeping it a walled garden.

------
twic
We're talking about this like it was a failure. This doesn't look like a
failure to me. Look at what they write:

> we believed by building a far superior product, and being creative about
> signing up users, we could turn long-distance carpooling from a niche
> activity to a modern mode of transportation.

> we did succeed at growing steadily (25-30%/mo), creating an Apple-featured
> iPhone app, building a userbase of 30k+

> we’re able to leave the Ridejoy website and iPhone app up and running for a
> while, until it starts declining in usage or requires too much maintenance

They set out to make carpooling great. They did it, and shipped the greatness
to thirty thousand people. The service is still running.

They didn't make a fortune (or make their investors a fortune) doing it. So
what? It is only in the utterly demented Silly Valley startup mindset that
this is a failure.

~~~
kapilkale
The problem is the opportunity cost of time. If a talented technical founder
could make $200K per year working somewhere else, then the opportunity cost of
building that company (after 2.5 years and with 3 founders) is $1.5M.

It may not be a failure from the ecosystem / societal perspective because a
new idea was tested and discovered to have some value to the world, but the
company ended up being worth $0. The founders are now saddled with a bunch of
debt.

It's like you go all-in on a poker hand, and then lose to a better hand. Did
you lose? Yes. What if you had fun playing? It's still a loss.

~~~
wpietri
What debt do you think the founders took on? Their company took investment,
but that's not debt, and it's certainly not individual debt.

With your attitude, nobody would learn to play poker, because nobody ever wins
the early hands. These guys clearly learned a hell of a lot, and that was
likely worth more to them than whatever net profit they could have turned on
working a different job. That's how I've always felt about my failures,
anyhow.

~~~
kapilkale
Re sources of debt: there's the incurred costs from bootstrapping. I quit my
job to start a company in August 2010, and didn't start paying myself a salary
until June 2011 after we completed our angel round (though we charged expenses
to the company from Jan - Jun 2011). I think my co received funding a lot
faster than most other YC founders who bootstrapped for longer before getting
into YC or raising an angel round.

------
jmathai
Congrats on the success you did have. This was a really refreshing and honest
_deadpool_ email. This type of post-mortem is so helpful for entrepreneurs in
general.

I hope we see more of this type of communication from startups. This and the
writeup of Everpix were very insightful.

Thanks for sharing.

------
jcampbell1
What is the west coast bus situation? The premium bus market on the east coast
seems to be booming. The NJ turnpike outside of New York which connects
NYC/DC/Philly/etc is full of passenger buses.

There are now even "Business Class" buses.
[http://www.vamoosebus.com/pages/gold.aspx](http://www.vamoosebus.com/pages/gold.aspx)

~~~
jaxomlotus
Vamoose bus is genius. They line up people on regular streets (where there are
no restrictions on idling) and the bus pulls up and picks them up. There's no
expensive terminal rent to maintain or coordinate, so the only costs are the
driver, bus costs and maintenance and gas.

It's growing fast too. Every day the lines I see for it in NYC are more full.

~~~
001sky
Getting accross town and getting into a terminal also adds a sort of stealth
time tax (like an airport, but sketchier). The Jitney benefits from this
heading east also, it seems.

------
rplnt
Could someone elaborate on this?

> Craigslist C&D’d us (they didn’t want our users linking to their Ridejoy
> ride offers or requests)

If I understand it correctly, CL sent C&D to ridejoy because someone was
posting ridejoy urls on CL? That's absurd if that's the case.. so how was it?

~~~
kalvin
We allowed our users to cross-post to CL if they chose to (it was opt-in, not
the default, and they had to sign into CL themselves to do so... so not
automatic) and many people did. If they cross-posted to CL, there was all the
basic logistical info in the post, plus a small link to their ride on Ridejoy
at the bottom of the post (which the user could remove).

------
edw519
I like to think that there are no failures, just unexpected learning
experiences on the way to something else. This sounds like one.

Thanks for the post. Looking forward to what's next.

~~~
rewind
I think this is a good attitude in a general sense, but I don't think failure
needs to be sugar-coated. If you have a goal, set out to achieve it, and you
don't, then you failed. If you learned some valuable lessons along the way,
that's great. If you deny failure, I think that's being dishonest with
yourself so you don't feel so bad. Failure should feel bad as much as success
should feel good.

------
curiouslurker
Good read. I am curious, what were the reasons given by the co-founder of
Zipcar on why you'd fail?

~~~
kalvin
[Ridejoy] She said: "One day ridesharing will be commonplace in the US, but I
don't think we are at that day yet. Here is my rationale:

1\. We didn't see any desire even when all the right pieces were in place
(origin, destination, timing match, long distance + high cost of parking,
compatible and networked ridesharers -- they still couldn't be bothered).

2\. In Europe, where ridesharing is catching on, it competes with bus and
train travel which is expensive, not car travel. In the US, ridesharing is
competing with going in your own car (or nothing) and it isn't very
competitive. The costs of car travel are not significant enough (yes yes I
know that it is 18% of household income and $8k per year -- remember, I spent
lots of money and a couple of years on this business).

3\. For short trips, it'll never work because the cost of any minutes of delay
just aren't worth the reduced cost of travel to the driver.

4\. As I'm sure you are thinking about dynamic real-time ridesharing --
everyone is -- answer this when you set about building your network: Robin
driver posts her trip once, twice, four times (?), maybe keeps an open trip
pending and gets no response. She stops posting and doesn't tell anyone about
what a great service/app/method you are running. Ditto passengers. When you
move to real time, you have reduced the likelihood of getting a match because
now the window of opportunity is 5-10 minutes (if we couldn't find a match
when we said any time you ever go to NYC email me, why would you find one if I
said anyone wanna go in the next 5 minutes?)

5\. Look at all the past efforts, and figure out honestly why your idea is
different. Everyone so far has failed. Smart phone apps, social network
connections, through employers, on narrow corridors, etc etc.

Driving is still too cheap in the US. People still aren't willing to make the
effort in adequate numbers to make it work.

Sorry to be such a downer but I get asked this all the time. So many people
starting and thinking about this space."

Note that she's using rideshare in the traditional sense, before Lyft/etc.
took over the word within the tech community. (Lyft is awesome! Just
different, for now.) So for short trips, using pseudo-hired drivers on shifts
a la Lyft, it obviously works well, just like taxis work well.

~~~
brc
The discussion about the costs of car travel are interesting -particularly in
light of some of the topics circulating recently about how the private car is
a terrible model.

It's not so much that the cost of a car is so cheap - cars do cost us
significant chunks of income - it's the fact that the value (or cost/benefit,
if you want to get technical) is so high.

Time is precious to everyone with a busy life. Cars save time, above and
beyond their cost to maintain. Even if you are stuck in traffic and can't
believe you are wasting your time, you're still saving time compared to the
guy who had to wait for a bus, hail a cab or organise a rideshare and is still
stuck in traffic.

Show me someone who doesn't need/want a car, and I'll show you someone who
either has billions/trillions worth of infrastructure at their door, or
someone who doesn't value their time highly.

Anyway, thanks for sharing. The decision to close down before the cash ran out
is certainly brave and should be encouraged. Posting the lessons learned is
even better.

------
brandonb
Kalvin, Randy, and Jason are some of the nicest and most capable founders
around. Wishing them luck on their next journey!

------
nkrumm
Nice, honest article. Thanks.

It's worth noting that Germany's 'Mitfahrgelegenheit' service [1] is highly
successful, and includes many of the same features that Ridejoy built. I've
used it a few times to travel between cities (large and small) in Germany...
it's primary advantage is price-- approximately 50% of the price of a rail
ticket (cheaper for the passenger) and takes the edge off the $8/gallon
gasoline prices for the driver. While price may be a motivating factor, there
are numerous systemic differences that come to mind when comparing ridesharing
in the US and in Germany, such as the shorter distance between all major
cities (though perhaps similar to NE USA), as well as Germany's love for the
cars and the autobahn.

One other note: on one of the drives, I learned that the system nearly broke
down due to "professional" drivers renting large vans and overselling tickets
for each ride to ensure that the vans were full. Then, when enough passengers
had arrived, the van left, leaving the remaining passengers hosed. Since you
only pay at the end of the ride, passengers started overbooking themselves,
hosing other drivers. In the end this was rectified by putting the cost of the
trip into escrow from the time of booking to the end of the trip.

1\. [http://www.mitfahrgelegenheit.de/](http://www.mitfahrgelegenheit.de/)

------
jaysonelliot
Congratulations on a good run. I was fortunate to meet Kalvin, Randy, and
Suelyn near the beginning of Ridejoy, just after they were funded, and I
thought it was a great service.

It's a shame that the planets didn't align this time for them, but they're all
wildly talented and creative individuals who are certain to go on to greater
successes.

Thanks for providing the wrap-up at the end of the journey. These kind of
stories are very inspirational as well.

------
Edmond
By the way, did you guys consider package delivery, instead of just people? I
did a b-school project on that concept, ie RideJoy but for package delivery.
My test route was going to be I-95.

Old beta site:

[http://web.archive.org/web/20100505134839/http://www.meshipu...](http://web.archive.org/web/20100505134839/http://www.meshipu.com/)

~~~
greenyoda
Delivering a package for a random stranger has all sorts of risks. If the
package contains a kilo of heroin and you get pulled over by the cops, it will
be rather hard to explain to them that you knew nothing about it. That's a
risk that a UPS or Fedex driver doesn't have, since they're not the ones who
accepted the package.

~~~
Edmond
Yea, those are issues that were considered including regulations...but I think
ultimately those by them self would not be a reason not to give it a shot. If
the business picks up then you can address those concerns. All the new ride
sharing services face similar liability issues.

~~~
gamblor956
Potential criminal liability is not an issue you can pick up when you get
bigger. It's an issue you have to deal with _before_ you get started. Willful
ignorance is not a defense to a charge of transporting drugs or other
contraband.

~~~
rmrfrmrf
Have you heard of Uber? Airbnb?

------
ajju
Ridesharing is a tough business, primarily due to supply side scarcity. Long
distance carpools are even tougher. It takes a team with incredible dedication
to accomplish what RideJoy has been able to. I noticed that they are STILL a
featured app under travel on the app store.

RideJoy and Kalvin in particular were very helpful to us at InstantCab at
various stages from advice and introductions on fundraising to hiring. I am
looking forward to following what each of them does next.

------
Edmond
Doesn't seem like you failed out right, it seems you had real traction so I am
a bit baffled that you didn't try harder to make it work (at least it seems
that way from your post).

I am thinking you could have worked something out with CL or found a way
around that?

Could this just be a matter of not having enough passion for the
idea/product/service itself?

------
flavor8
What was your revenue model? If you were doing it again, would you try to do
it lean / w/o VC money?

------
isalmon
I don't understand why deadpool is better than acquihire. You would return at
least the same amount of money to your investors, but also you could put this
as an exit on your resume and get a significant amount of money personally.

~~~
patio11
From an investor's perspective: all small returns round to zero. No outcome
other than "Company gets absolutely massive" makes a meaningful difference to
my net worth. Accordingly, if one of my CEOs said they were optimizing in the
0x to 2x range to avoid letting me down I'd tell them to do right by their
team/family/self and call me when they had a new company to invest in.

From a founder's perspective: If you want a job at AmaGooFaceSoft you can get
one whenever you want (we're assuming you're very talented and in the current
economy). If you want a house worth of money as a result of working at
AmaGooFaceSoft, you can get that by getting the job and then waiting. Most
people do not get into startups because they are the glide path to
AmaGooFaceSoft careers. People might consider the option value of the next
thing, or the certainty that the next thing will not involve a manager and HR
department, higher than the (not insignificant) amount of money AmaGooFaceSoft
will pay for engineers bought in quantity.

~~~
isalmon
Interesting to know, thanks for sharing that. The question was coming from my
personal experience when my previous company was going down and the main
investor insisted on selling it for 110% of his investment. He returned his
money and the rest 10% went to the founder.

------
ProblemFactory
> We never discovered demand in the way that VC-backed startups need to. (We
> now no longer believe the market exists in the US, but of course, perhaps we
> just couldn’t find it.)

Could you please tell us more about your opinions on the ride-sharing market?
Were there any surprise difficulties or discoveries? Or is the "half a million
rides per year on Craigslist" * expected revenue per ride just too small to be
worth pursuing as VC-funded startup?

------
qwerta
From title I thought they moved into funeral services.

~~~
phazmatis
Or chimichamgas.

------
mmayberry
It would be interesting to hear from a YC partner about what they saw in
Ridejoy, its founders, and what they thought when they made their investment.
Its a rare opportunity when a startup publicly speaks about hitting the
deadpool (something I admire ridejoy for doing) and hearing the flip-side
perspective might be even rarer.

------
LogicX
I'll take this opportunity to throw out an alternative to ridejoy which is
still going: [https://www.ridepost.com](https://www.ridepost.com)

Based out of Greenville, SC

I'm not the founder, but have met him - would love to get his thoughts on what
happened with ridejoy.

------
wehadfun
Ride Joy - Social Bus Chartering.

People say where and when they ant to go. If enough people sign up charter the
bus.

------
ipince
Have you thought of selling the business to some other developer? I'm not
talking a big acquihire to some random bug company, but putting it on one of
those sites to sell other sites to folks like you and me.

------
jonny_eh
They should probably take down that job ad at the end of the blog post.

------
hosh
I wonder how well Ridejoy would have done if it were launched after self-
driving cars were more available?

~~~
kalvin
[Ridejoy] This was a frequent joke around the office (ok, mostly me.) The
future of rideshare, long-distance and short-distance [UberX, Lyft, Sidecar]
is absolutely in self-driving cars and "everyone" knows it. I assume all three
of those companies include it in their long-term-vision slide. Just need to
wait a decade...

A lot of other bigger consequences too! See Quora for a great answer on
societal changes.

------
bliti
This adds to my opinion that Craigslist needs to have a good (paid) API.

~~~
rgovind
If the services which use CL become popular, they may become a threat to CL.

------
sudheendrach
Thanks for sharing your story! What are your plans? starting something?

------
praveenhm
I have used a rideshare few times before. can you guys just opensource all
your source code.So that the community can build something out of it.

