
The Decline of Sears - zatkin
http://michael-roberto.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-decline-of-sears.html
======
aczerepinski
When Lampert took over Sears there were so many articles drawing a parallel to
Buffett taking over Berkshire way back in the day. Both were successful hedge
fund managers who took control of a declining business. Ostensibly, Lampert
was going to leverage Sears' assets (mostly the real estate) to develop a
Berkshire-esque portfolio of strong companies.

He started off in that direction, buying Lands End and making a bid for
Restoration Hardware. I recall an interview or press release laying out a
vision for Sears as a "store of stores" that showcased iconic American brands
- Kenmore, Diehard, Lands End, etc.

Somewhere along the line that dream died, and the cash flow was used mostly
just to repurchase shares while letting the stores Languish. A bunch of
concepts were tried in a handful of stores, but none promised an attractive
ROI so they were dropped. Bruce Berkowitz is another investor that used to get
compared to Buffett an awful lot, and tied his fate to the Sears project. He's
still buying more shares and saying he sees value there.

I don't really have a point other to say that investing is hard, and
identifying talented value investors who will outperform in the future is even
harder. Whether this was a dumb idea all along, or a poorly executed good idea
is tough to say.

~~~
MrTonyD
I used to buy all my clothes from Land's End - easy, convenient, and "good
enough" quality. After the Sears acquisition Land's End went from occasionally
"iffy" to rarely satisfactory. Everything became the cheapest, thinnest, and
most poorly fitting. At the same time, Sears went from having the wrong
products to having poor quality products (like the Land's End they started
carrying.) The "dumb idea" vs. "poorly executed" is easy for me to decide --
I'd say both.

~~~
ghaff
I generally agree. At best, my personal impression is that Lands' End isn't as
good as it used to be. (Note that Lands'End isn't actually part of Sears any
longer although there are still Lands' End stores within Sears stores.)

Having said that, Lands' End's drop in quality came during the same period
that so much manufacturing was moving to Asia. I suspect that whatever corners
Lands' End started cutting were the same corners that most of the other brands
it competes with were cutting as well. And this may well have happened with or
without the Sears acquisition.

~~~
MrTonyD
I read the book by the Patagonia founder, Yvon Chouinard, where he described
how they had to send people to their manufacturers to be involved with
quality, and how even then they would get bad batches and be forced to dump
the clothes at a big loss and switch manufacturers. So it can be done - but
perhaps that isn't what would be suggest by Ayn Rand. It isn't selfish enough.

~~~
bch
If that's from "Let My People Go Surfing"[0], it's a light-weight (easy
reading) book with what seem to be some pretty profound simple business
observations and accounts of how Patagonia made decisions. I certainly enjoyed
the book, but I think I don't have a deep enough business acumen to say
whether or not the book is realistic for more than just Patagonia.

[0] [http://www.patagonia.com/ca/product/let-my-people-go-
surfing...](http://www.patagonia.com/ca/product/let-my-people-go-surfing-
paperback-book?p=BK501-0)

Edit: linked

~~~
manyxcxi
But if it worked for Patagonia, that operates in a pretty old industry,
shouldn't there be at least a number of take aways that would apply to many or
most industries?

I've not read the book yet, so it's not a rhetorical question. Living in the
Pacific Northwest Patagonia and their company story and ethos are known to
just about everyone who's ventured into the outdoors.

~~~
ghaff
I'm not sure how relevant lesson from Patagonia are to a more mass market
retailer. I like my Patagonia gear. I also bought most of it at outlets where
it's merely expensive. It's certainly a high-end retailer. Making similar
tradeoffs at a Sears or, as was recently the case, JC Penney's don't
necessarily work.

------
Asparagirl
This long MetaFilter comment from 2007 is my all-time favorite explanation
about what Sears had, and what they could have become, and how they let it all
slip away:

[http://www.metafilter.com/62394/The-Record-Industrys-
Decline...](http://www.metafilter.com/62394/The-Record-Industrys-
Decline#1742245)

The catalog. Allstate Insurance. Coldwell Banker. Dean Witter. Prodigy! The
Discover Card.

The goodwill, the name recognition, the money back guarantee. All gone now.

~~~
marshray
That was an amazing read.

"In 1993, Sears had the most extensive and sophisticated mail-order retail
operation on the planet and they closed it. Two years later, Amazon.com
launched"

That's got to go down in history.

~~~
gregpilling
I have long wondered why they didn't do the 'same day delivery' thing once
Amazon showed that people would pay for it. With all their locations and
space, they have inventory near most of the population. Add some uber-
contractors and voila! ,, well they could have tried it anyway.

------
douche
I have to be careful buying tools from Sears now (which is really the only
reason I go in there), because they've started selling cheap knock-off stuff
under the Craftsman label, that isn't up to the old quality standards and
doesn't have the Craftsman lifetime warranty on it.

I think the worst was a socket set I picked up, where the chrome was literally
coming off in flakes after a couple months.

~~~
blt
All Craftsman hand tools are all made in China now. My metric Craftsman
wrenches are made in China and my SAE ones are made in the USA. The difference
in quality is obvious. Not saying that Made In China == Low Quality, but in
the case of Craftsman tools it's true. Plus it makes their "lifetime warranty"
feel like a load of BS when the replacement for anything more than 10 years
old is going to be vastly inferior to the original.

The middle market of hand tools has been gutted. If you're not buying top-of-
the line stuff like Snap-On, Knipex, etc. you might as well just shop at
Harbor Freight and save some money.

~~~
pbreit
Considering that Apple and others are able to get extremely high quality
manufacturing out of China, it's a shame this isn't more widespread. I guess
consumers don't really expect much better.

~~~
solipsism
Apple products are assembled in China. Manufacturing comes from all over the
world.

------
itodd
I recently built a kitchen and made the huge mistake if buying appliances from
Sears. I am in awe of how badly this company performed.

First delivery attempt, they called the night before to give me a window.
Delivery driver called me to make sure I will be home and that he would be
there in 30 minutes. They never showed up. After calling I learned the
products were not in stock.

They did the exact same thing on the second delivery attempt.

Third delivery attempt they deliver a damaged fridge.

Fourth attempt, they opened the truck and they did not strap down the fridge.
Parts everywhere.

Fifth, they got it right. Normally I would have cancelled the order but the
experience became a curiosity. How badly could a company mess up? Turns out, a
lot.

~~~
cgriswald
I ordered my daughter's new bed from a different store with white glove
service.

First attempt. Driver claimed no one was home. I was doing home renovation. My
contractor was there, with no less than 10 other people doing work. The front
door was even open at the time as two people were working on and around it.
Contractor knew to expect delivery.

Second attempt (weeks later). They delivered some parts of a bed, did not
assemble what parts were there. Repeatedly gave different stories about where
the parts were. They made many claims about where the parts were, none of
which seem to be true and some of which conflicted with each other.

Third attempt (more weeks after countless phone calls). Driver claimed he
could not make it up hill to house. Left. Argument with customer service.
Driver returned. They delivered one more part. Did not assemble anything.

Fourth attempt (months after original delivery date). Finally delivered the
final piece. Moved mattress and box spring to hallway. Assembled bed. Left.
Didn't bother to put boxspring and mattress back. (I checked their assembly
work, which was fine.)

Since then I've gotten multiple phone calls from them telling me the bed is
now ready for shipment.

I'm amazed they're even still in business.

~~~
randycupertino
> First attempt. Driver claimed no one was home.

Home Depot does this to me a lot. I think it's because the drivers are lazy
and don't feel like getting out to attempt the actual delivery.

~~~
zippergz
The drivers get marked down for being too far behind schedule, but the company
also schedules more stops than can realistically be done in the time frame. So
it's not terribly surprising that they're incentivized to cheat in this way,
and gain back some time in their schedule...

------
fixxer
They just picked up a guy from Amazon and are building their data science
team. Should be interesting to read the same article next year.

Edit: I think this is going to have zero impact on their biz. I got a
recruiter solicitation earlier this week and started laughing. Additionally,
"PhD is a firm requirement."

~~~
MrTonyD
I do consulting - and I spent some time with the Sears data science team.
Don't get your hopes up. A broken culture is hard to change. They seemed
pretty "downtrodden". (I should add that they were all good people. I would
work with any of them again.)

~~~
gogopuppygogo
I know a few people on the management team. It's basically a sinking ship with
no one trying anymore. They'd do better spinning the brand into it's own
entity under a licensing agreement with a competent ecommerce company like
Newegg. In fact that should probably be their strategy if they want to
survive. One entity for the real estate, one for the brick and mortar then
another for online commerce. Then have Newegg acquire the majority share of
their ecommerce business and rebrand as Sears. It'd be like lightning growth
hit them since the Newegg guys know what they are doing in online commerce.

But that'd never happen.

------
janesvilleseo
One item that always struck me as something these large retailers should do to
leverage their physical locations is to provide same/next day delivery. With
the ability to pick up the item in store same day when ordering it online what
stops them from delivering it. It would require a large investment in delivery
vehicles and drivers, but some of these stores have some of that already.
Sears has it because they deliver appliances and Best Buy with their Geek
Squad technicians.

Some businesses do this for other businesses. Staples, Napa, OfficeMax, etc.
Why not extend this to the consumer. I would venture to guess they feel that
there is no ROI. But if people are not going in the store, give them a reason
to buy from you anyways.

~~~
hapless
Staples is primarily a delivery business. The stores exist to drive and sell
the B2B services.

They don't deliver to consumers because consumers don't need enough office
supplies to make it worthwhile.

~~~
janesvilleseo
True, but they have the infrastructure built, what stops them from extending
it to consumers?

~~~
zyxley
Presumably because it would cost more to pay the delivery drivers for small
orders than they would gain in profit from the orders.

------
rmason
I believe that for at least ten years there has been a clear path forward for
Sears. It's just that management refuses to follow it.

The way forward is for Sears to move completely over to franchising. I
remember working in a small town in West Michigan fifteen years ago when a
local opened a Sears franchise store, it carried a small subset of what a
regular Sears store carried kind of a greatest hits.

I was certain that it would be a complete failure. I didn't know anyone who
shopped at Sears and the brand would be a drag on the new business. I was
totally wrong the new store was a huge hit! I got to know the manager and
there are a couple hundred of these stores and the overwhelming majority
succeed.

Sears is sitting on a lot of valuable real estate that they could sell if the
big stores were sold. Franchise stores would popup in the communities that
would support them. Just because there aren't any franchise stores in big
cities doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't succeed. Apparently the big
brand still has some pull, but the overhead of the big store pulls it down.

The key is local owners who are free to stock Sears brands or chose other
merchandise, people who understand their communities and can provide great
service.

------
pitaa
I used to work for a company that sold the majority of their product to sears.
As the only one in the company that actually knew anything about technology,
it was my job to make sure our products and company information were set up
and up to date in sears' systems. Their systems consisted of multiple online
management portals where you'd supply everything from product weight and size
to your fax number to how you wanted to get paid, and appeared to have not
been updated since 1998 or so. One wouldn't work at all unless you were using
Internet Explorer 6. Updating product info required changing it in multiple
places as well as emailing them a spreadsheet with the exact same info.

~4 years ago they announced that they had partnered with some SaaS provider do
modernize their systems. It required re uploading all your product data, but I
was excited to finally get rid of IE 6. That is until I discovered that they
couldn't bare to replace their legacy systems, and the new one was just a
flashy way to manage an arbitrary subset of your product data, but other
changes still require using the old system.

~~~
kevan
I worked in a Sears store from 2008-2010, somewhere around 2009 I think our
store got upgraded from a literal mainframe terminal to a virtualized
mainframe terminal for inventory management. The box managing the registers
ran OS/2 Warp.

------
kevin_thibedeau
My town has a K-mart that I refuse to go to because the customer experience is
so pitiful and the checkout process is glacially slow. There is no nearby
competition from Target or Wal-Mart. They could own retail in this area but
instead they hold up lines of customers with the stupid POS systems that are
set up to print out 4 feet of receipts causing the printers to constantly run
out of paper.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I saw a piece on WalMart when they were new. Customer service was their
mantra. Showed a manager from a WalMart visiting a K-Mart with the journalist.
Pointing out the dirt, the broken racks, the tiny number of checkout stations,
the idle listless employees. Said something like "Its not hard to do better".

~~~
thekevan
Customer service is non existent in a majority of the WalMarts I have
frequented. Tangentially, a social worker friend of mine says she supports and
shops at WalMart because WalMart employs the otherwise unemployable.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
Curiously, I have had the opposite experience at Walmarts around the country.
I've almost always found help when I needed it, the employees seemed
reasonably competent and none of these "unemployable losers" that I keep
hearing about on social media.

To the extent that retail is still a profession, anyway. A couple of
generations back, retail was a high standards industry with highly trained
staff and high expectations among the customers.

~~~
nommm-nommm
On Friday I went to Walmart to pick up a site to store online order. Well,
lets start with the fact they told me it would be there by Monday (I ordered
it on Sat). I went to the site to store counter which was in the back. There
was shelves behind the counter that were empty (shouldn't those shelves
contain site to store orders for easy access?). Pressed the "call employee"
button. Sat down and waited, waited, waited. Some employee on their way to the
bathroom asked me if I needed assistance, "I pressed the button." He radioed
in that he needed someone at site to store. Nobody. So he went to go get the
person. They come back eventually guy says "sorry about the wait I was helping
another customer at the front of the store." Apparently only one employee is
capable of operating site to store. He looks up my order says "this may take a
minute to find." and goes to the back. 10 minutes later (no exaggeration) he
comes back and says "this will take a little longer." Someone else comes to
site to store and presses the button. Same guy comes out and says hes looking
for my order so he'll be with them in a while. Once again... apparently only
one person can operate site to store and if they are busy oh well. Another
employee walks by and asks if we need help. Other person was like "I haven't
been helped, he's looking for this other persons order." She goes to the back
to get him (apparently she can't operate site to store either). She comes out
and says hes moving boxes because someone buried my order behind boxes and
that's all she knows. Guy comes back out eventually with my order. Checks me
out and he doesn't have a pen for me to sign that I got my order. I just took
one out of my pocket, signed the paper, and gave him the pen (it was a free
pen). Took at least 30 minutes altogether.

I don't get it. The whole point of site to store is for convenience but they
seem to make it as inconvenient as possible.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
Did they email you that your order was in, or did you just go on the basis of
an estimated arrival date? It sounds as though checking for an online order is
not one of Walmart's core strengths. I would imagine there's a system that
they use: order arrives, gets processed in the inventory system, gets placed
in a particular spot at customer service order pick-ups, customer is notified.
If you came in before that process is complete you probably caught them
unawares. It does sound needlessly awkward, though.

~~~
nommm-nommm
No. They emailed me 4 hours before I went there. If I went there based on the
estimated time I would have been 4 days early.

It obviously didn't "get placed in a particular spot at customer service order
pick-ups." It was in the normal stockroom treated like normal stock - which
means people don't pay attention to quick and easy access and stuff gets piled
on top. They have shelves in the site to store area behind the desk. Said
shelves are completely empty. It does make sense that they don't want people
taking stuff off the site to store shelves so they keep them in the back. Even
though the shelves are behind the desk the desk is unattended except whe
someone presses the button.

My experience is not unusual at all for Walmart site to store, if you look
online you'll see plenty of similar stories.

------
blisterpeanuts
Sears has good automotive repair services, decent large appliances, and a
competent line of tools and car parts.

Their other consumer goods such as clothing, sporting goods, shoes, and
electronics seem somehow lacking. There is a disconnect somewhere. Once, while
I was browsing at the local Sears, an employee sourly commented, "We sell
fishing rods but no hooks."

The prices are high compared to the other big box retailers, let alone Amazon.
Their website lacks the rich shopping experience of Amazon. Speaking of hooks,
there is nothing to draw customers into the store, no focus, no reason to go
in and browse. It's a dull, utilitarian experience.

Sears is big, has excellent brand recognition, and still occupies a lot of
prime commercial real estate. What they seem to be lacking is a refreshed
product line, cutthroat pricing, and the brilliant marketing and advertising
that is needed to draw in business.

~~~
taloft
The reason I go into Sears is they have the most open parking spots at the
mall. Everywhere else is packed.

~~~
Animats
Yes. That led to one of the more pathetic ads in the history of retail -
"There's always parking at Sears".[1]

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLmu98-wkmk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLmu98-wkmk)

------
hristov
The decline of sears is an interesting subject, but this particular blog post
is just blogspam. Better to link to the actual article this blogspam post is
inspired by:

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2016/02/11/the-5-way...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2016/02/11/the-5-ways-
ed-lampert-destroyed-sears/#3e432adb41de)

------
bruceb
What comes to mind for different retailers:

Wal-Mart: Cheap

Target: Not as cheap but Sorta hip and clean

Nordstrom: Excellent customer service

Forever 21: Fashionable and cheap

Sears: Not sure??

JC Pennys: Kinda like Sears but at least we are trying

The thing is Sears has been like this for so long. How did they at least not
try?

~~~
quicklyfrozen
Sears: Best place to park if mall is busy :-)

------
protomyth
There is something seriously wrong with a chain that had "catalog store" in
its soul not being able to adapt to the web.

Worse, some of the "Sears" stores in rural areas are actually just using the
name under license. They are not doing the parent company any good.

~~~
nickhalfasleep
This is the heart of it. In 1993 they cancelled their "catalog", which was the
amazon.com of it's day. If they had had the foresight they would have put that
online. Same interstate tax savings, same larger selection.

I once worked for an online savings / coupon site that had been a catalog
ordering company and transitioned the right way (ShopAtHome.com) from a
printed catalog business in the early 90's, and had great respect for the
founder's insight in doing so.

~~~
mark-r
The interstate tax savings only works if you have no physical presence in a
state. Since Sears was everywhere, it wasn't a possibility for them.

Amazon got so much flak for taking advantage of this, they finally decided it
was easier to open warehouses everywhere and charge the taxes. But that opened
up the possibility of same day delivery.

------
jimhefferon
They are _much_ more interested in selling you credit than in what they are in
business for.

~~~
PhantomGremlin
I know someone who works as a cashier at Sears. She gets $2 for signing up
someone for in-house credit, $4 for a real credit card. And she gets yelled at
if she doesn't meet her quota (one signup for every $500 in sales).

I think it's an idiotic policy from the point of view of a customer who
doesn't want a credit card. Because it slows down the line, all this promotion
and paperwork is being done at the cash register.

------
headgasket
Funny, just bought a Samsung range there, delivered for free yesterday, best
price in town for this unit. A few automated delivery date confirmation calls
too many, otherwise great experience. I hope the Koreans have a higher
standard then Kitchenaid/whirlpool, I've had 3 bad experiences in a row.

~~~
Pxtl
Yeah, it's gotten to the point that Samsung is the only appliance brand I
really trust anymore since all the old American brands have copied HP's
business model: strip-mining your one competitive advantage - your respected
name - into a crater.

------
analognoise
I HATE SEARS.

Sorry, let me start off with a story: So my wife and I are looking to replace
a Queen size bed with a King size one - we find the one we want at Sears
online, cool, place an order.

Checkout, put in info, order done. Get notification email, I had put in one of
the other mattresses we had been looking at (like an idiot) - ok, no problem I
think, I JUST made the order, I will cancel it and get the one that we had
wanted.

I call the customer service line. "We can't cancel it, it's already with the
shipping department." Ok, I don't care - tell them it's cancelled, so I can
order the right one? "I'm sorry, I can't do that." Alright, let's do the
"Connect me to your supervisor" dance!

Get to the "next level" supervisor; this person says, "I can't cancel the
order, it's already on the truck."

...You put an order on a truck within 15 minutes of me clicking the button
that isn't set to be shipped for two weeks? Is your warehouse made of trucks?

"Ok, take it off the truck." I say, convinced I had just solved the problem.

"I can't do that. You'll have to receive it, and then return the mattress."

"...You mean I'll have to wait two weeks, for you to ship me a mattress I
don't want, just so I can return it? That doesn't make any sense."

ON TO THE NEXT LEVEL OF SUPERVISOR!

By now, what should have been a friendly 30 second call that would replace one
order with another one, is 45 minutes of me being increasingly confused and
pissed off, but it becomes clear after the third person comes on the line.

"Sorry to hear that you want to cancel the order, sir. Could we convince you
to take the order, and accept a discount?"

WHAT THE FUCK, FOR THE WRONG MATTRESS? Then it hits me - they were giving me
the run around, specifically to keep that 'sale' in their system, at almost
any cost to them.

"NO, cancel the order IMMEDIATELY, and I won't sign for it if you make the
mistake of shipping it here!"

This _finally_ convinces them to cancel the order. What a waste of an hour! As
an upshot, I am so pissed off at this point that I decide not only to not
order the right item from Sears, but never to buy anything there _ever again_
, and to inform everyone I had ever met that Sears is terrible and to advise
them never to shop there, ever.

So now that Sears has come up, I'm going to do the same thing I promised to do
then:

Don't ever shop at Sears, ever - if there is a damn hurricane and it's the
only place with sandbags, I still wouldn't trust them.

I know HN is more meta/intellectual and not a personal anecdote kind of place,
and I'd keep to that rule, but the fury came over me when I saw Sears, and I
couldn't help myself.

------
thekevan
This article doesn't address the fact that Sears was once a standard. However
they didn't change as the younger generations came on. I don't know as their
customers are switching to a competitor as much as they are just dying.

~~~
mark-r
Sure they changed - just not for the better. If they'd simply stayed the same
as they were 25 years ago, they wouldn't necessarily be thriving, but they'd
be in much better shape than they are today.

~~~
Pxtl
Exactly. Their failed attempts to modernize have chased off their old
customers, whereas their otherwise glacial pace hasnt attracted any new ones.

------
joezydeco
Any mention of the fall of Sears under Eddie Lampert should not omit Lampert's
vision of running the company under Ayn Rand's Objectivist principles, and how
that completely failed:

[http://www.salon.com/2013/12/10/ayn_rand_loving_ceo_destroys...](http://www.salon.com/2013/12/10/ayn_rand_loving_ceo_destroys_his_empire_partner/)

[http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-07-11/at-sears-
edd...](http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-07-11/at-sears-eddie-
lamperts-warring-divisions-model-adds-to-the-troubles)

~~~
briandear
This in itself doesn't discredit Rand, it just discredits his execution of
Rand. A physicist that fails even though he believes in Quantum Theory doesn't
mean Quantum Theory is necessarily wrong.

The Salon article is rather biased and doesn't actually analyze the specific
failure points as it relates to Rand. Selling Rolexes in Sears isn't Randian
-- it's just a bad business decision.

The dude's personality also isn't necessarily Randian either and it would seem
that was a major contributor to his failures.

There are plenty of Christian business successes and failures -- and they
rarely have anything to do with Christianity.

Did he actually follow Rand? Selling a $4000 Rolex in Sears has nothing to do
with Rand.

The Salon article even states "discredited free market.." Is that so? I'm not
sure many reputable microeconomists would say the free market is discredited
any more than the law of supply and demand is discredited. There are
distortions that happen surely, but that doesn't 'discredit' anything.

Has Adam Smith been discredited? We could more easily say that Marxism has
been discredited based on the fact that nearly every Marxist economy has
failed while plenty of free market economies have succeeded.

This failure has zero to do with Rand and everything to do with the personal
failings of this CEO.

~~~
bickfordb
Are there any examples of a company successfully run with Ayn Rand's
principles?

~~~
goodside
It's ironic this isn't used more often to judge Objectivism's merits, though
it's a bit disingenuous since it's prudent for most businesses to avoid having
any polarizing opinions. E.g. Roark Capital, the owner of Cinnabon and Arby's
that's named after Rand protagonist Howard Roark, doesn't seem to officially
advocate the philosophy. BB&T under John Allison is the only one I can find
that's indisputably both successful and guided by Objectivism -- $24B market
cap, $188B assets, senior management required to read Ayn Rand, they donate to
promote Objectivism in colleges, etc.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
> they donate to promote Objectivism in colleges

That doesn't sound very objectivist to me.

------
PaulHoule
For decades it has been a poster child for mismanagement.

I took my Tv-b-gone to a business school and zapped the TVs that had CNBC and
stuff like that and they turned them back on in an hour and the next time I
used it they put tape on the IR sensors.

I zapped the TVs at sears and they were still off a year later.

Sears is the only entity that has denied me credit. (Doesn't stop them from
asking me to apply.

For years I was a fan of sears auto center because the cashier would sometimes
give me 4 tires for the price of one and they were the kind of lovable
gearheads that always had the manager's camaro. They went on of business and
an mma training center moved in and I don't get it because this is the only
state where mma is banned...

~~~
AI_Overlord
Four tires for the price of one... Should not be hard to find out why they
went out of business.

