
Airport security in America discovered more than seven guns per day in 2015 - jimsojim
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2016/02/concealed-carry
======
d_theorist
"The number of Americans trying to smuggle guns on to planes keeps rising"

Is the actual headline. And it's one I find fault with. The mere presence of a
gun in somebody's bag does not imply "smuggling".

As alien as it seems to us in the UK (and elsewhere), there are certain parts
of the US where people think absolutely nothing of carrying a gun around with
them all the time. I have little doubt that some percentage of these finds are
just due to forgetfulness, and not to any malign intent.

~~~
Kiro
Maybe you're right but I think that you would have to be very absent-minded to
accidentally bring a gun with you into airport security.

~~~
hueving
Have you ever accidentally brought a bottle of shampoo or scissors? You are
vastly underestimating how common it is to have a gun in some parts of the
country. It is just an everyday item like anything else to some people.

~~~
yoz-y
Even though understandable this does not explain the rising numbers. We do not
know whether they are normalised or simply due to the fact that more people
have guns, but it could be a trend. Also, the whole point of airport security
is to find weapons, so it is also reasonable to think that people would be
more cautious about accidentally bringing a gun rather than a shampoo bottle
(which you can actually bring if it is small enough).

~~~
vijayr
Are we sure the numbers are rising? Maybe airport security just got better at
detecting guns in the recent years?

~~~
amelius
Some other options: people started traveling more; people are carrying guns
more; people have become more absent-minded (smartphones?)

------
rahimnathwani
"Last year, undercover TSA agents managed to smuggle concealed guns and bombs
past security 96% of the time."

So does that mean that thousands more weren't detected?

~~~
dhd415
You can't extrapolate from the two facts of "2,653 firearms discovered by TSA"
and "undercover TSA agents managed to smuggle concealed guns and bombs past
security 96% of the time" to an expectation that some ~63,500 total firearms
were not detected because it is likely that many if not most of the firearm
discoveries were not attempts to smuggle the firearm onto the flight. It is
not especially uncommon for someone who routinely carries a weapon or other
non-TSA-approved item in his or her purse or briefcase to forget to remove it
when flying. I've done this twice with a Leatherman multi-tool (among its
tools are a pocketknife blade that is obviously not TSA-approved) that I used
to keep in my laptop bag. In areas where guns may be carried, this happens
with guns. In these cases, the travelers had simply forgotten to remove the
weapon or unapproved item and were not attempting to smuggle it onto the
flight. When it's pretty clear that there was no intent to smuggle the item
onto the flight, the traveler is generally asked to remove the item and there
is typically no penalty. I was asked to return the Leatherman to my car or pay
to have it Fedex'ed back to my house.

~~~
scotty79
... so TSA is probably really good at preventing people from accidentally
carrying weapon onto a plane.

~~~
dkersten
When you do it by accident, you're not exactly trying hard to conceal it. So,
yes, they probably are really good at preventing this. The 96% statistic
suggests that they are _not_ good at preventing concealed, hidden weapons from
slipping through...

------
akerro
My gf forgot to take out her pepper gas from her bag before flight. Her bag
was scanned twice and no one noticed. We found it out at home. The can was
opened, used once before. Well done security officers and billions dollar
market for security scanners.

~~~
OscarCunningham
I once carried a small penknife onto a plane just by forgetting I had it.

~~~
Arnt
I shave using an old-fashioned razor. From (not sure when, but most likely
2004) to 2010 I travelled with a pack of razor blades in my hand luggage most
of the time. It sailed through dozens of inspections. I found it myself when I
got a new laptop bag and emptied out the old one.

I was so angry about all the hassle (hours of queuing, dozens of examinations,
all for zero success) that I decided to go on, and have done it another
100-200 times since. Whenever I fly somewhere without checked luggage but will
want to shave, I just take along my razor and a blade or two. My blades have
been found twice and confiscated once.

A tip for other security-minded travellers: There's a brand of toothpaste
called "one drop only" whose tubes are small enough to pose no risk to
aircraft security, yet last long enough that you don't need a tube for each
trip.

~~~
akerro
My friend had toothpaste confiscated, because it's a liquid pack of more than
50ml... He was arguing for 20minutes that toothpaste is not a liquid and they
let him go. I was allowed to take 75ml of honey.

~~~
ant6n
I once gobbled down what was remaining in a jar of Nutella at security because
they wouldn't let it on a flight. Apparently it's a paste.

~~~
mindslight
I once drank 10oz of tequila at 9am. Fuck em.

Frankly there should be shipping boxes at the molest-station, with the cost
paid by the thugs that insist on stripping you of your personal property.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
If anything deserves an upvote, it's this :-)

------
DanielBMarkham
This might be a good time to point out that _finding the weapon_ is an idiotic
way to conduct security. What you want to find is the _dangerous person_

There are probably dozens if not hundreds of guns every day flying around the
skies. Yet there is no danger. In fact, you could fill a plane with a fully
armed Marine platoon, and there would be no increased danger.

The TSA collecting oddball trinkets and weapons and then reporting about them
has always struck me as one of the weirder aspects of the war on terror. Since
it's obvious that armed terrorists aren't being arrested at checkpoints, and
since it's also obvious that the population has been traveling with these
weapons for as long as there has been air travel, what, exactly are we
proving? That people forget and leave scissors and knives in their carry-ons?

We are in the same spot here as we were with electronics just ten years ago.
Everybody brought electronics on planes. Tons of people forgot to turn them
off. We were given dire warnings about why turning them off was necessary. Yet
planes kept taking off, flying, and landing safely. It wasn't that we were
unsure whether or not these things were dangerous. Hell, we were conducting
live experiments many times an hour that proved they were not.

Same goes for some business guy who left his pistol in his computer case. We
already know these guys are not security risks. We've been testing it with
real, live, people and weapons for many decades now.

TSA needs to be abolished. Immediately. Yes, we need flight security, but
there are many drastically better ways of providing it.

ADD: Of the many things that concern me about the TSA is what we're seeing in
this article. In order to continue justifying its existence, it will need more
and more to make us afraid of our fellow travelers. This is the terrible
consequence of 9-11: we're turning the Defense Industrial base against the
very population it is supposed to be protecting. Very, very bad stuff.

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
So you're in favor then of psychological profiling and no fly lists? Because
those certainly block people who the government "thinks" are dangerous,
regardless of the actual danger posed by the items on their person.

~~~
simoncion
> So you're in favor then of psychological profiling...

Reasonable people are in favor of police and intelligence work that identifies
people with both the _genuine_ motive and _actual_ means to seriously endanger
the lives and/or property of others and provides reasonable assurance that
those people will fail to harm others. This sort of policing is nothing new
and has worked _spectacularly_ well for many, many, many decades.

So, if that's what you mean by "psychological profiling", then yes. If
-however- you're referring to TSA's SPOT teams and similar low-to-no-effort
quackery, then no.

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
You're essentially banning people from flying for possible crimes they might
commit.

~~~
simoncion
> You're essentially banning people from flying for possible crimes they might
> commit.

They will be banned from flying because they will be _in jail_ awaiting trial
for conspiracy to commit murder, or similar such charges.

If someone _actually_ , _legitimately_ poses a _serious_ "danger to aviation",
they should be charged, jailed, and stand trial. Do you disagree?

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fche
And the number of shootings on board airplanes has been ... zero.

~~~
dawnbreez
The implicit danger is that someone will fly to another part of the world and
start shooting _there_.

~~~
hga
And why would this be any more danger than of him using it while there?

Note that if declared, it's legal to transport unloaded in checked baggage in
the US, and unless things have drastically changed the airline etc. isn't
going to wonder if possession is legal for you at your destination.

------
SixSigma
4% of all shipping containers are inspected by customs at The Port Of
Rotterdam.

1% contain things that shouldn't be there (that's all they would say when
telling us).

The port I was at (there are 25 I think) unload 14 million containers per
year.

Those are pretty good odds for smugglers.

EDIT: they said random inspection but they would, wouldn't they

~~~
willvarfar
Depends how the shipping containers they inspect are selected. It could be
that they are targeted inspections.

~~~
runholm
Yea, they pick the 4% most likely to contain smuggled goods. 25% of them do.
That does not mean 25% of all containers contain smuggled goods.

------
daniel-levin
>> Last year, undercover TSA agents managed to smuggle concealed guns and
bombs past security 96% of the time

The system for gun/bomb detection is only as good as the agents responsible
for it. For example, I saw my friend _accidentally_ sneak a knife onto an
plane two years ago. The metal detector flagged him, and he confidently told
the official present: "Oh, it's my belt!" and after taking it off he walked
through, with no further probing. He literally forgot about his EDC knife and
wound up with it on the flight. It must be noted that this _was_ in South
Africa, but having travelled to both the USA and Europe, I know it could have
happened there too.

The current system is not robust to human error, and this is its fundamental
flaw. Con artists and psychologists know how to systematically induce human
error [1, 2]. It is conceivable that malicious actors (or TSA people
pretending to be) can do exactly that and reliably subvert a human detection
system. As an aside, it would be interesting to see TSA people try sneak
weapons onto an El-Al flight [see 3, 4, 5 for why]. A humorous anecdote: once
when returning from Israel, I had my bag full of dirty clothes thoroughly man-
handled by an irate woman from El-Al security. I had two books inside, each
with a metal inset in the spine. As soon as this was found out, I went from
being treated like a terrorist to a non-threat in a few seconds. It was
remarkably efficient.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias)

[3]
[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1001458258397595640](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1001458258397595640)

[4]
[http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/11/yeffet.air.securit...](http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/11/yeffet.air.security.israel/)

[5] [http://www.tabletmag.com/the-roll/102229/the-
gatekeepers](http://www.tabletmag.com/the-roll/102229/the-gatekeepers)

------
ghayes
What are the penalties associated with these 2,555 incidents? I assume it's
not legal to smuggle a loaded gun onto a flight, and these numbers are
staggeringly high.

~~~
ljosa
The TSA will refer you to the local police. What happens next depends on the
local laws. In some states you will be arrested (e.g., Massachusetts, where a
law prohibits most people from carrying guns into three of the state's
airports). In other states, forgetting to take a gun out of your bag is no
different from forgetting to take a water bottle out, and you will be allowed
to return the gun to your car before going through security again and boarding
your flight (e.g., Georgia, which passed the Safe Carry Protection Act in
2014).

~~~
uppity_stuppity
> allowed to return the gun to your car

Ha ha! What an American comment! Not only having a gun, but driving your own
car to the Airport. Americans love guns but hate public transport! Hilarious!

~~~
cozzyd
We non-motorists also don't carry guns around, for the most part.

~~~
fche
For the most part, no one carries guns around. In the US, some 3%ish of the
population has concealed carry permits. (In some states, permits are not
required at all, but the overall percentage won't be hugely higher.)

~~~
hga
5.2% as of last summer, and the numbers continue to skyrocket, I would bet at
least 6% as of now, 5.2% represents a 15.4% increase in just one year. 7
states also have Constitutional Carry, no license required (Alaska, Arizona,
Arkansas, Kansas, Maine, Vermont (never banned carrying) and Wyoming (for
residents)). Gun sales, both total and type, are reflecting this.

Since some very populous states, including #1 California and #4 New York are
mostly no issue, the percentages are even greater in the 43 Shall Issue or
better states, a number are getting up to 10%. The percentages are even
greater when you adjust to the age eligible population.

So quite a bit higher than "no one", although of course having a licence does
not equal routinely or always carrying.

~~~
fche
Oh sure, the more the merrier. Just pointing out that the "for the most part"
is kind of a silly criterion.

------
m1sta_
I remember accidentally taking a massive pair of scissors onto three flights
while travelling from NYC to SYD. Arrived in Sydney for an Australian domestic
leg and they were immediately found. I was very confused as to how the TSA had
missed them so many times.

~~~
robk
You should be more outraged at the fact scissors are banned, not happy they
were found by the Aussies.

------
tuyguntn
Suppose what would be headline if 7 guns will be from Middle Eastern guys,
"Terrorists are attacking America"

Hoping not to get downvoted for honest opinion

------
zomg
give me a break, what a joke. typical gun-grabbing economist article. turns
out in all the states they are harping on, a gun is considered a tool and not
some black, metal object of death, like they want you to think.

and if i want to take a gun with me on a trip (where i'm legally licensed to
carry, which is most states), i can already do that by checking it, like the
majority of LAW ABIDING citizens do.

if there was actual INTENT to "smuggle" a gun on a plane, with which to do
harm, then there's a news story here, but there isn't. it's liberal, gun
grabbing, troll bait and an attack on legal firearms owners. move on.

</rant>

------
venomsnake
With the amount of guns in the US and the way people forget what they carry it
is not out of ordinary or newsworthy.

------
ck2
Just wait for a hijacking with a gun, the NRA will start insisting people open
carry on planes to protect themselves.

~~~
Gravityloss
Math puzzle:

What are the odds that more than half of the passengers want to die in a
terrorist strike?

So if we equipped all passengers with tasers, all terrorists would be caught.
Of course, sometimes there might be some minor accidents, but they're not
(very) lethal or harmful to the aircraft structure.

One change would result. You would have to pay the cabin attendants a lot more
:) Also the safety instructions would take a while longer. They would show how
to operate the taser in case your neighbor starts doing something suspicious.

~~~
ck2
Minor incidents? People would be letting their kids play with them and shoot
other kids/people with them, police would have to meet every plane landing to
arrest people for tasering the people behind them kicking their seat.

BTW if you let all passengers have them, you'd be arming terrorists, sooner or
later - all they have to do is use it on a pilot going to the bathroom, if
they are ready to die they don't need anyone to land the plane.

~~~
dawnbreez
The parent comment's point is that the terrorists would be outnumbered.
Incidentally, one of the planes involved in the 9/11 attack--the one meant to
hit the White House, IIRC--was grounded by unarmed passengers who overwhelmed
the terrorists who hijacked the plane.

