
The Spy Who Loved Me: An undercover surveillance operation that went too far - danso
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/25/the-spy-who-loved-me-2
======
mortov
North Americans are probably astonished at what is 'permitted' for UK police
to become involved in - there are no constitutional protections and no
effective oversight and there never has been in the UK. Even today the Police
actively obstruct and frustrate attempts to bring effective controls and
oversight of their activities which can be in clear and blatant breach of what
limited legislation exists.

This (and other related) stories rolls on with only a few days ago the
Metropolitan police in London being forced by a court order to admit the
identities of two officers - Jim Boyling and Bob Lambert [who the referenced
article is about] - who fathered children (then disappeared leaving the
mothers and babies to fend for themselves). [http://www.theguardian.com/uk-
news/2014/aug/15/metropolitan-...](http://www.theguardian.com/uk-
news/2014/aug/15/metropolitan-police-forced-to-name-undercover-officers)

~~~
mike-cardwell
Whilst we're comparing police forces:

"Last year, in total, British police officers actually fired their weapons
three times. The number of people fatally shot was zero. In 2012 the figure
was just one. Even after adjusting for the smaller size of Britain’s
population, British citizens are around 100 times less likely to be shot by a
police officer than Americans. Between 2010 and 2014 the police force of one
small American city, Albuquerque in New Mexico, shot and killed 23 civilians;
seven times more than the number of Brits killed by all of England and Wales’s
43 forces during the same period."

[http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/ar...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/armed-
police)

~~~
GVIrish
Just because you're unlikely to get shot in the streets by British police,
doesn't mean unlawful killings by British police are not an issue.

[http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/dec/03/deaths-police-
cust...](http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/dec/03/deaths-police-custody-
officers-convicted)

Law enforcement in each country have their own issues with accountability and
human rights, just in different ways.

~~~
mattmanser
Have you read that article? It doesn't say what you think it does. It pretty
much says only 13 officers in 12 years should have been convicted of foul
play.

One a year.

------
junto
Interesting article. I hope that the families affected by this Met Police
massive error of judgement find a way to get peace in their lives.

I imagine that many are deeply hurt by the actions of these undercover police
officers. This lady was obviously deeply emotionally scarred by her failed
marriage to this man.

I also feel some sympathy for the officers involved. The police are a
brainwashing operation on young impressionable minds. In many ways they are
also victims of the state.

It is likely that those responsible for the decisions that led to this
happening are long since retired and nothing will happen to them, but it must
lead to safe-guards to make sure it doesn't happen again.

~~~
the_tank
Is it too much to require at least a summary reading of the article before
posting comments? There was no marriage involved between the two main
characters of the story.

~~~
knodi123
Pardon the user for using the term "marriage" instead of "long-term
relationship involving cohabitation, shared expenses, and raising children
together". How clumsy of him to use a word that means "all of the above, plus
formalized by the state."

------
athrowmeawayx
This reminds me of my friend, she's an activist of sort related to the
anarchist movement here in my country. She was told my some of her friends her
partner was a cop (she met him in a protest) she's now pregnant with his baby,
he ran away and she found some emails of him reporting to his supervisors.

~~~
Joeboy
Is your country in Europe? If so your friend might want to look into a case
along the lines of this one: [http://policespiesoutoflives.org.uk/the-case-
overview/](http://policespiesoutoflives.org.uk/the-case-overview/)

If not there might be some similar case that could be brought. From what I
know, it's been a pretty major struggle though. The first step might be to try
to find out if there's anybody else in a similar situation in your country.

At least equally important, judging by the way this situation has affected
people here looking after your friend's mental well being ought to be a
priority.

Hopefully if your friend's in "the anarchist movement" she has some support
there, but feel free to get in touch with me if you'd like to hook her up with
people in similar situations in the UK, or if she wants to know more about
what's been happening here.

------
Theodores
> As Rob Evans and Paul Lewis write in “Undercover: The True Story of
> Britain’s Secret Police,” Lambert “was well versed in political theory.” A
> former acquaintance told them, of Bob, “He was not a cardboard activist, he
> had real depth to him.” (Evans and Lewis exposed many of the events in this
> story in a series of articles in the Guardian, for which they won a 2014
> British Press Award, and in “Undercover,” which is the definitive account of
> the excesses of undercover policing in Britain.)

I don't tend to recommend books as books take a while to read and 2-3 days of
someone's time is precious. However, this book is one of those exceptions, a
must read that will change your ideas on how things really work in this world.
Enlightening and extremely well researched, quite an adventure story too,
covering many decades of goings on.

------
zizzer
The thing I find most surprising is that she went from being a protesting
vegan hippy-type, to a Daily Mail reader who says "I don’t read the
Guardian—nobody I know reads the Guardian". That's some shift to the right.

~~~
Joeboy
That would be the Daily Mail whose Richard Littlejohn wrote in March:

> There are currently a number of cases in which an assortment of

> unwashed dopey birds who slept with undercover officers are seeking

> compensation, even though no force or coercion was involved.

>

>Oh, do grow up.

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2580603/RICHARD-
LI...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2580603/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-A-
dangerous-job-someones-got-it.html)

and in 2012:

> It sounds as if the women were well up for it.

>

>And, anyway, have you seen the state of some of these birds, caked in mud,
looking

> as if they haven’t been near a bath in months?

>

> Having sex with them is nothing less than heroic, way beyond the call of
> duty. It’s

> a dirty job, but someone had to do it.

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2081428/Abdullah-M...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2081428/Abdullah-
Munawar-Howzat-Now-theyve-got-googlies.html)

~~~
jacquesm
What an absolutely atrocious article.

~~~
inglesp
He's a pretty atrocious man.

------
sliverstorm
I'm conflicted, and I think the reason is- typically the police are not
allowed to commit things which are crimes. They are not allowed to steal, or
to murder, or what have you.

If Bob had been an ordinary citizen, absolutely none of it would have been
illegal. Even if he was an ordinary citizen who led this woman on to get
information. This kind of deception happens. Just think of the secretly gay
men who have been married to women for many years, even fathered children.
There are countless men who sleep with women, pretending to be someone they
are not...

Are there any good examples of things any citizen may do that an officer may
not, that are not as cloudy and twisted as romantic relationships?

~~~
7952
>> There are countless men who sleep with women, pretending to be someone they
are not...

I'm not a lawyer but according to this [1] deception of identity demonstrates
lack of consent.

[1]
[http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/...](http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/)

~~~
koenigdavidmj
That seems to only document deception of gender identity, not other things. In
Israel there is a much stronger law, but there was a bit of an uproar related
to an Arab man who gained false consent by falsely saying that he was a Jew.

Link: [http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Court-cuts-Arab-
Israeli-r...](http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Court-cuts-Arab-Israeli-rape-
by-deception-sentence)

------
brohee
British secret services still did this very recently, with one Mark Kennedy
infiltrating various European leftist movement, committing and inciting crimes
to be accepted and having sex with activists...

[http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/08/mark-kennedy-
accus...](http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/08/mark-kennedy-accused-
fantasist-french)

[http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/15/new-twist-in-
bri...](http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/15/new-twist-in-british-spys-
case-unravels-in-u-s/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0)

------
mcguire
What is the status of child support in England, in a case like this?

~~~
Joeboy
I don't really know, but I would assume that if the father successfully
disappears until the child is an adult there's no child to support anymore,
and therefore no child support is due.

~~~
Joeboy
Having googled a bit, I still think what I wrote is correct. Judging by the
downvote I guess at least one person thinks otherwise. I'd be interested to
know what the situation is, if it's not that.

~~~
DanBC
In addition to what jacquesm says, downvotes are sometimes accidental. The
buttons are small and close together.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Can confim, have missed the upvote button more than once.

------
walshemj
Lol its ACPO becoming over mighty ACPO is effectively the senior coppers
Union.

------
hammock
Men are victims of so-called "honeypots" all the time, but we don't weep over
them. Why when it's a woman?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clandestine_HUMINT_asset_recrui...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clandestine_HUMINT_asset_recruiting#Love.2C_honeypots.2C_and_recruitment)

~~~
Joeboy
Do you have examples where men were deceived into multi-year intimate
relationships, or left to care for the children of their partners after they
disappeared?

~~~
ivanca
>or left to care for the children of their partners after they disappeared

About that second group: Yeah, millions.
[http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/07/02/the-rise-of-
single...](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/07/02/the-rise-of-single-
fathers/) [http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/steps-
au...](http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/steps-authentic-
happiness-positive-psychology/2013/may/7/when-mothers-abandon-their-children-
or-families/)

~~~
Joeboy
I am aware that some men are single parents. I was assuming readers had the
ability to follow the context of the discussion.

