
As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots - mcspecter
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farm-mechanization/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark
======
Animats
I've mentioned those machines before. They're still prototypes, nowhere near
rugged enough for field use.

Agrobot: [1] Too many parts, too many places that can catch dirt, too slow. If
they can solve the sensor problem, they need to do a complete mechanical
redesign to make it field-ready.

Abundant Robotics: [2] Too slow, too fragile. For comparison, here's a Festo
vision-guided robot picking up randomly oriented objects. Agricultural
robotics needs that kind of speed.

This is going to be solved soon, but probably not by those startups.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKT351pQHfI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKT351pQHfI)
[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS0coCmXiYU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS0coCmXiYU)
[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH_t_1-tl40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH_t_1-tl40)

~~~
Qworg
While I agree with your conclusion in the small, Who else is working on it to
take up the slack?

~~~
Animats
Don't know. Doing good mechanical design requires an organization that's good
at making machinery. Not that many people are really good at mechanical
design. I occasionally mention that I'm into restoring antique Teletype
machines. All the good Teletype machines were designed by two people - Howard
Krum and Ed Klienschmidt. Competitors mostly copied them, or produced
unreliable machinery.

(I once worked at a hydraulics R&D facility for a big machinery company. They
had that capability, and it took several acres of plant, with everything from
overhead cranes to machine shops to scanning electron microscopes. It also
took hundreds of people who've done it before. You need that kind of
industrial backup. A laptop in a Starbucks is not enough. That gets you a
design like Jucero, way overdesigned and overpriced.)

~~~
mod
AVE (a youtube channel) pulled a Juicero apart and looked at it, and came to
that same conclusion. Way overdesigned, but really nice guts in the thing.

He thought they were losing money on the hardware, fwiw.

It's a fun watch, if you're into that kind of thing. Warning, he probably uses
NSFW language, he does frequently in most videos:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-
BGQfpHQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ)

------
delbel
Does anyone know of any groups or hacker like groups working on these types of
problems? I own a small farm and for the life of me I cant find workers even
at $25/hr. I have so far bought several tractors and implements and I am
planning to semi-automate as much as possible. But that is not ready this year
and I am basically by myself with a shovel... I would like to fully automate
as much as possible, and I have zero skills in this area. To increase my
chance of success I have bought several machines, such as 3d printers, a
lathe, a milling machine, plasma cutter, welders (MIG and arc), and other
tools, and I am building a shop right now. I have also worked with Ardunio,
raspberry pi, ... basically I am going all out and want to go all the way to
success. There are several machines I would like to build that I would like
powered by the tractor´s PTO and hydraulic. The most important machine would
be a planter that would plant solo-cup sized plant starts, and lay down drip
irrigation. If I can build or buy that, that would save a lot of my time.

~~~
noonespecial
I can't magic you up any workers but here's a hint:

You'd be astonished at how quickly and accurately a large air compressor with
a small amount of water added to the flow can dig a shallow trench or small
hole.

~~~
delbel
I actually have a backhoe, but the diesel injector pump is broken. Its a rosa
master rotary injection pump. They go for $800 on ebay rebuilt. Project for
the winter in my new shop. Thanks for your advice on the water injector. Do
you have any design for injecting the water into the air line? How much water
like in GPM or CFS per PSI?

~~~
noonespecial
I spent a summer as "that guy who digs with the compressor" on a maintenance
crew at a summer camp.

I discovered it when I accidebtly blew a hole in an asphalt parking lot trying
to use the compressor to clear sand.

Compressor was a little 50hp Rand diesel tow behind. 120psi 180cfm. In soft
soil no water is even needed. A little water (like 2-5 gpm makes everything
nicer). I started by making a little brass siphon fitting and then upped it to
a garden hose fitting by the end.

Layed miles of sprinkler pipes with it. Always figured it would make a
fantastic automatic digger for something or other.

~~~
delbel
Well you might be on to something. An air compressor with a venturi device,
which is a simple device. I have a few for gold dredging and another one a
fertilizer mixer. One could be made fairly easy with a pipe bender, welder,
and fittings could be made on a lathe. However, a 50 HP air compressor is
huge. I don't know much about air compressors besides my pancake compressor
(barely runs my CUT50 plasma cutter), but 50 HP is tremendous. A lathe I am
looking at to buy runs on 30 amps 220, and its only 5hp. 50 HP would be 50
*750 37,500 or 37kw.. or 170 amps at 220v if my math is correct! However, one
of my tractor has 19 HP PTO at 540 rpm (Ford 2N) and another tractor of mine
(Ford 4000) has a 50 HP PTO that could power a air compressor that size. So
yeah that could be powered by one of my tractors and fit on a 3 point hitch. I
like your idea and will look for a large air compressor motor somewhere to see
if I can retro fit it to a PTO and build a venturi to try your idea out.

~~~
noonespecial
The one I used was a little diesel powered thing that the camp bought for
$1900 (used) to run a jack-hammer. (Ended up cheaper than renting) then it
just sat around until I had the bright idea of blowing off the parking lots
with it.

It looked like a tiny little trailer that you pulled behind a jeep or
something. It ran all day on a few gallons of diesel.

------
frabbit

       That’s because immigrant farmworkers in California’s
       agricultural heartlands are getting older and not being
       replaced. 
    

As others have mentioned it's all to do with the wages that the fruit growers
are willing to pay, and Driscoll's (mentioned in the article) have been at the
center of controversy about their wages for some time for their practices in
Mexico and elsewhere: [https://boycott-driscolls.org/](https://boycott-
driscolls.org/)

    
    
       The Union of Independent, National and Democratic
       Farmworkers (SINDJA) calls for all independent and
       autonomous boycott committees to unite for a global
       day of action on November 19th. We invite all families
       to support the International Boycott against
       Driscoll’s in solidarity with farmworkers in San
       Quintín, Mexico. In the US, when you sit down at
       your tables on Thanksgiving Day, we’re asking you
       to please think of the farmworkers in San Quintín,
       who work 12 to 15 hours a day for as little as 6
       US dollars in take-home pay. Meanwhile, Driscoll’s
       is making multiple millions in profits.
    

Robots for labor are coming, and when they do it is time to take
agriculturally productive land away from the profiteers. They serve no
rational function in the economy and are merely monopolizing a resource.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
> Robots for labor are coming, and when they do it is time to take
> agriculturally productive land away from the profiteers. They serve no
> rational function in the economy and are merely monopolizing a resource.

This is one of the big questions we'll have to ask in the next 20 or so years,
and it just isn't farms. We are going to have to deal with plenty of
industries that will merely consume resources and produce without providing
any other benefits to society.

~~~
maxerickson
A value added tax could raise revenue from robot farms and factories, there is
no need to seize them.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I didn't agree with seizing them, just that we have to figure out what to do.
A VAT could definitely help, but consumers will still need jobs to consume,
and if they can't find any in production...well...can we live on doing
services alone?

I don't know. Hopefully people smarter than me are thinking about this.

------
ams6110
Farms have been replacing people with technology for at least 200 years.

~~~
minikites
200? Try 6000:
[http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/plaintexthistories.asp?h...](http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/plaintexthistories.asp?historyid=ab57)

>From about 4000 BC oxen are harnessed and put to work. They drag sledges and,
somewhat later, ploughs and wheeled wagons (an almost simultaneous innovation
in the Middle East and in Europe). The plough immeasurably increases the crop
of wheat or rice. The wagon enables it to be brought home from more distant
fields.

~~~
ptaipale
Not sure why you'd be downvoted, but was about to post the same: the whole
history of agriculture is about improving the technology.

One could add that development has been particularly rapid over the past 50
years or so.

------
avs733
They could also, which is notably mentioned no where in the article, pay more?

In a market driven economy...which companies want...employees have market
power as well when their is a shortage.

~~~
andrewla
> They could also, which is notably mentioned no where in the article, pay
> more?

From the article:

> And native-born Americans aren’t interested in the job, even at wages that
> have soared at higher than average rates.

> Not surprisingly, wages for crop production have climbed 13% from 2010 to
> 2015 — a higher rate than the state average, according to a Los Angeles
> Times analysis of Labor Department data.

> Growers who can afford it have begun offering savings and health plans more
> commonly found in white collar jobs.

Margins are thin, though, and the article makes it sound like it is more
efficient to grow less labor-intensive crops and import the other crops.

~~~
xienze
> And native-born Americans aren’t interested in the job, even at wages that
> have soared at higher than average rates.

Conspicuously absent in every single article claiming that Americans "aren't
interested" in farm work is exactly what constitutes "higher than average
rates". You _will_ find Americans interested in this work at some rate, but
it's going to be higher than what you think it "should" be. In a country where
a $15 minimum wage is expected for relatively comfy fast food work, back-
breaking outdoor labor is going to be significantly more expensive. But you
will find takers at some price.

~~~
criddell
In another comment on this thread, a farmer said he couldn't hire people at
$25 / hour. If a machine can do it, then a machine should do it. Especially
work that's difficult and can be dangerous - like farm work.

~~~
rgbrenner
Yes, but farm workers only work part of the year, and only work on each farm
for a few weeks.. then move onto another farm.

So having 1 farm paying $25/hr, does not change much for the worker.. after
they finish at that farm, they'll need to go to another that's paying near
minimum wage (the average for a farm worker).. and the result is that they are
still in poverty (the average farm worker lives below the poverty line).

The result is that no one is going to move from even a minimum wage job to
farm work unless the pay is even higher and/or other farms get onboard with
the higher wages.

~~~
rjsw
This basically requires the worker to be either homeless or that they can
leave a house somewhere else empty while they are working on a farm.

How does welfare in the US cover housing costs ?

~~~
rgbrenner
They dont get welfare.

Farms are heavily dependent on immigrants, mostly illegal immigrants from
mexico (90% are foreign born) for crop workers. They work on our farms for
very little pay (but probably more than they would have in mexico), work here
for 10 years or so saving as much as possible, then go back to mexico. They
may travel from CA > WA through the season; or on the east: FL > OH > ME (this
prolongs their work season). They're on average very poor, with little
education (6th grade is the average).

With the more recent restrictions on the flow of illegal migrants, many are
finding it's impossible to come back to the us (or they choose not to come
back). Disrupting the flow of illegal migrants that the farms depend on.

That is the source of the labor shortage that the farms are now complaining
about.

Essentially for years they have taken advantage of illegal immigrants to
depress wages in their industry. And now they have been cut off, and theyre
finding it difficult to adjust their wages to appropriate levels so they can
compete in the domestic labor market.

Farmers deserve no sympathy for the labor shortage.. it's an exploitative
arrangement. They should automate as much as possible, and for everything else
they should pay market rates (whatever those may be... even if it's $100/hr or
more (remember its short term hard labor, 2nd most dangerous work in the US)).

This shortage is actually a great thing, if it lasts. Whatever workers are
left, might finally get paid a livable reasonable wage.

Edit: if your curious about their conditions, here's the National Agriculture
Workers Survey that covers all of this:
[https://www.doleta.gov/agworker/pdf/NAWS_Research_Report_12_...](https://www.doleta.gov/agworker/pdf/NAWS_Research_Report_12_Final_508_Compliant.pdf)

It's currently "offline for maintenance", so here's google's cache:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HiRr7h...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HiRr7h03zkcJ:https://www.doleta.gov/agworker/pdf/NAWS_Research_Report_12_Final_508_Compliant.pdf+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

~~~
rjsw
I realize that most farm workers up to now have been immigrants.

I was trying to find out how things would work if a legal worker alternated
between working on farms and living on welfare somewhere out of any work
season.

The UK is starting a similar shakeup, most seasonal agricultural work is done
by workers from poorer countries in the EU who go back home once the work is
done.

I feel that it will be hard to find the market rate for this kind of work in
the short term.

~~~
rgbrenner
There's no welfare program like that. You cant work a seasonal job and live
off welfare the rest of the year.. you're going to be homeless.

------
valuearb
It's too late. 90% of Americans used to work back-breaking farm jobs for 12
hours a day. Now almost all of those jobs have disappeared.

------
jack9
"As California's slave labor shortage grows..."

The awful conditions and pay and protections result in people not wanting to
do the work, since it's not even a livable wage. Might as well be begging (or
move to somewhere else to beg), which is the easier and ultimately healthier
choice.

~~~
randyrand
Relative to what? Humans have been farming for thousands of years under worse
condition and worse pay, yet humans still did it. In fact, even more humans
used to do it. So awful pay and conditions are not a showstopper.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
Do you have citations most farming (historically) was done for worse pay under
worse conditions?

~~~
tormeh
Before the industrial revolution, most people worked in agriculture. If you
look at life expectancy in those ages it's pretty grim. Usually no one would
live to be 45.

I can't vouch for the following, but it seems like something a reasonable
person would write: [http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/life-expectancy-in-the-
middle-a...](http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/life-expectancy-in-the-middle-ages/)

------
randomguy23
"Necessity is the Mother of Invention" \- how many of us here only program
when we have an itch to scratch? Human ingenuity will prevail.

~~~
gooseus
Necessity is also an agent of destruction... how many people here have
projects that failed because the necessary resources (capital,resources,time)
far exceeded what could be viably sourced?

------
1024core
> Stated bluntly, there aren’t enough new immigrants for the state’s nearly
> half-million farm labor jobs

That's why we need a "farmworker" visa system, which lets workers come when
required and go back as needed. Millions of people work on such visas all over
the world; I don't see why it won't work in the US.

~~~
sumedh
> go back as needed.

The problem is, many people dont go back.

~~~
1024core
Because they have no choice. It's so hard to cross the border, that once
you're in, you have no choice but to stay in. They also bring their families
in, because otherwise they would not see them.

Implement a farmworker visa that lets these workers go back and forth as
needed, and suddenly they don't have to bring their families here; they can go
back for events and festivals, maintaining a healthy social life. They can't
be blackmailed by criminals, because they're here legally. You can even charge
them a little bit for catastrophic health insurance.

~~~
sumedh
> suddenly they don't have to bring their families here

How can you claim this? Why not bring your family over and let them enjoy the
good life.

------
burner_account
Nobody worries about labor automation in the context of raising min wages. But
when it comes to immigration...

------
csdrane
Or they could, you know, offer higher wages.

~~~
JustAnotherPat
Picking fruit and vegetables has always been peasant and serf work. The market
has never once said, 'you should be paid more,' because there always is an
underclass and even if you paid triple what you pay now it'd be the same class
of people working the job. The problem is every American thinks he's too good
to be at the bottom of the barrel these days.

~~~
Clubber
If it's a comparison between getting crap pay at McDonalds and getting crap
pay in the hot sun all day, then there is no comparison.

~~~
jff
I've never worked at a McDonalds, but I've done my time out in the hot sun and
honestly when I look at these poor bastards standing in front of a pot of
boiling grease all day I wonder if I wouldn't go back to the farm.

Unless the work was picking onions or strawberries or some other crop which
involves spending all day in a terrible bent-over posture. If the pay was the
same, though, I'd rather spend the day harvesting apples than spend it making
burgers for assholes.

------
xefer
I wonder when it will be considered unethical to eat food harvested by back-
breaking stoop labor?

~~~
wernercd
Yeah... then the flip: When will it be unethical to eat food harvested by
companies that don't employ people?

You can spin it in both directions... on one side, those poor people who do
back breaking labor... on the other side, those poor people who can't get jobs
that are done by robots.

Interesting time we live in.

~~~
droidist2
I'm imagining a "Made by Humans" sticker on products

~~~
geomark
"Hand Made" has already been a thing for a while. "Made by Humans" sounds like
a good rebranding.

------
mrfusion
It seems like picking a lot of fruits are easily in the realm of what computer
vision is capable of these days.

What would be the first steps to doing a start up in this space? Anyone
interested?

~~~
rectangletangle
A lot of the issues currently are related to the mechanical handling of the
fruit. It's very important not to bruise or damage the product. Buyers
generally have strict rules on exactly how the fruit is picked, e.g., how much
stem is still attached to the fruit, for both weight and quality reasons.

Other issues arise if the orchard is on uneven ground, or their are irrigation
lines in the way.

Certainly not insurmountable, but not easy. Then there's the distinct problem
of adoption.

~~~
Torgo
potentially robotics could increase your yields by making uneven plots of land
more viable for planting.

------
mikehines
Curious if California can incentivize farmers to train and hire capable
homeless individuals to mitigate the labor shortage issue.

~~~
Jabanga
Theoretically yes. Practically, no. Homelessness in rich countries is largely
a result of substance abuse and underlying personality disorders (which are
often the reason the substance abuse starts).

Modern governments don't have the political will to break the social taboos
necessary to instill discipline and personal responsibility in the homeless
population, especially when there are large interest groups in the public
sector who stand to lose financially from any serious effort to address the
underlying causes of homelessness, especially if that effort rejects their
ideological assumptions about the causes of homelessness.

------
RandyRanderson
Yes, likely this will be the AI revolution: humans will only do jobs where
robots are more expensive.

These will 99.999999% be McJobs.

------
hi1234567890
This would be a good time to implement regulations and taxes on all robots to
diminish all margins gained from automation.

~~~
greglindahl
Would this tax be on all labor-saving devices, like kitchen appliances?
Washing machines? Oxen-powered plows?

~~~
kasey_junk
Looms possibly?

~~~
mullen
How about the Wheel? Wheels deprive millions of jobs for people to carry
stuff.

~~~
hi1234567890
I didn't realize this would prompt so much emotion. I only said it as a
consideration. As a reminder this is a quote from Bill Gates ""If a human
worker does $50,000 of work in a factory, that income is taxed," Gates said in
an interview with Quartz. "If a robot comes in to do the same thing, you'd
think we'd tax the robot at a similar level." < Google it.

~~~
astrange
If the robot's owner gets an extra $50k income from this, we're actually
getting more in tax because their marginal income is higher.

~~~
dragonwriter
> If the robot's owner gets an extra $50k income from this, we're actually
> getting more in tax because their marginal income is higher.

If the robot is owned by an individual taxpayer paying personal income tax on
the income, and if you ignore taxes other than income tax that levied on labor
income, and if you ignore accounting tricks, etc., this is fairly obviously
true from the way progressive tax rates work.

OTOH, it becomes less obviously true when you consider how the robots are
likely to be owned in the real world, the full set of taxes on income in the
real world, and the greater practical ability of the rich to avoid taxation in
the current system.

