
Minard / Morse / Tufte and Authenticity on the Web (2018) - lifthrasiir
https://www.masswerk.at/nowgobang/2018/minard-morse-tufte
======
mxfh
I think the bigger issue is removing the context and cropping the complete
work here, which quite likely is already a grave deviation from Minards intent
(note the Northing of the Hannibal map to align with Napoleon's).

It’s originally a 2 panel/figure page evoking a comparison between Hannibal's
campaign over the Alps with vs. Napoleon's French Army in Russia 1812-1813

Sarah Rendgen just recently got a book published on the topic: _The Minard
System: The Complete Statistical Graphics of Charles-Joseph Minard_

Here is the whole print in question:

[https://i2.wp.com/geekdad.com/wp-
content/uploads/sites/3/201...](https://i2.wp.com/geekdad.com/wp-
content/uploads/sites/3/2019/01/PAP_MinardSystem_Spread6.jpg?ssl=1)

from [https://geekdad.com/2019/01/the-minard-system-charles-
joseph...](https://geekdad.com/2019/01/the-minard-system-charles-joseph-
minards-innovative-use-of-statistical-graphics/)

[Book]
[https://www.papress.com/html/product.details.dna?isbn=978161...](https://www.papress.com/html/product.details.dna?isbn=9781616896331)

Landsteiner makes notes on this, with a section in a previous article too:

[https://www.masswerk.at/nowgobang/2018/observing-
minard](https://www.masswerk.at/nowgobang/2018/observing-minard)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17808302](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17808302)

~~~
masswerk
(OP here.) Yes, I think this is really the most important issue. Minard's
graph was never meant to be observed in isolation, but is part of a greater
visual rhetoric. It is also in this context that I did observe the various
sources of the graph a bit closer. – I guess, we may say what has become "our
Minard" isn't necessarily the "authentic" Minard.

------
lifthrasiir
What is most interesting to me is that someone already did a similar research
in the English Wikipedia talk page for that file [1], but concluded that it
was indeed Minard's (oops) and the error still persists today. It is really
understandable as the presented differences are minor and only discernible for
the most determined people though.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Minard.png](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Minard.png)
(note that it is actually a Commons image, so there are two talk pages for the
same file)

~~~
charliepark
Welp. I have no recollection of what research I did to conclude that it was
“legit”, but I believe that was my post on Wikipedia. As I don’t have memory
or note of that research, I can’t really stand behind either my initial claim
or my counterclaim.

------
jimhefferon
If Elaine Morse is still around she could perhaps shed some light. Perhaps
Tufte knows her.

(Many years ago I went to a talk by Dennis Ritchie about *roff. He showed the
graphic and said that someone at Bell Labs had taken the time to code it up. I
have no idea if that person is Ms Morse, though.)

------
jbj
I received physical promotion for Tufte twice in my personal letterbox (while
in USA) too my high surprise. Of course it made me check him out online, but I
think his presentation is not something for me.

Edited for clarity since I apperently got downvoted

~~~
itodd
I went to one of his seminars and walked out. There was very little substance.
At one point he told everyone they should bring a technical document when
bringing their pet to the vet.

edit: Some other things he suggested: don't use powerpoint. Write a technical
document and have everyone read it before the meeting. He also showed how he
himself could have saved the space shuttle discovery.

Sorry if I'm coming off as a bit negative. I like the books, they have some
good insights but the seminar itself was terrible.

~~~
harrylove
That’s unfortunate that you had such a bad experience at the seminar. I went
to one early in my career (maybe 2001) and I consider it a pivotal moment. The
seminar and books have influenced my thinking on design, experience, UI,
decision-making, and how to present effectively, whether on paper or in
person. Learning to use the concept of the data-ink ratio alone has paid off a
thousand-fold for me. The other concept that sticks out to me: “good design
cannot save failed content.” I also agree with his stance on presentation
software.

~~~
shereadsthenews
I also attended his seminar in 2001 and it heavily influenced my life and
work. As an example, when my wife was giving birth to our second child I made
a plot, a simple one with paper and pen, of the time between contractions. I
did that because the first time they tried to hurry her along with drugs. The
second time when the doctor came in to whine that we were “not making
progress” (read: the doctor has dinner reservations at 6) I was able to show
convincingly that progress was indeed steady. The simple act of visualizing
data can influence decisions, which is the point of his chapter on the
Challenger disaster.

~~~
mark_integerdsv
Sitting on my bed in Cape Town, South Africa and knowing that I'll probably
never be able to attend his seminar, it's nice to read your folks good
experiences.

It's nice to think that something you dream about is in fact something
fantastic.

Tufte had a huge impact on me too, around the same timeframe (2001.)

