
Ever-growing cars: why they keep on getting wider - Vagantem
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/investigation-why-are-cars-becoming-so-wide
======
darren
As a parent with 2 young kids the massive size of car seats forced us into a
larger vehicle.

~~~
nautilus12
Why are carseats so big? It can't all be safety. Do you think it gives a
luxurious appearance and parents tend to buy them more?

~~~
hnick
Most prams I see these days are much larger than the simple, light-weight
folding models many people had when I was a child in the 80s. They're
basically monster-truck-prams.

I think the perceived comfort, safety, and luxury is a big drawcard in both
cases.

~~~
netsharc
An American who lived in Europe started a business importing luxury prams into
the US:

[https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/20/bugaboo-
luxury-...](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/20/bugaboo-luxury-pram-
baby-buggy-stroller-parenting)

------
NeedMoreTea
The sad thing is an original Isigonis style 1980s mini estate gives more
chance to put a full size dog in the back, with the rear seats up, than the
current massive Mini Clubman estate that's cramped for a Yorkie with the back
doors closed. It really is comical seeing original Mini and new next to each
other -- the new one is not, by any stretch, "mini".

I keep thinking my retirement project should be an EV 1980 mini estate with
upmarket seats and instruments -- as that's honestly what I want to buy in an
EV. Something starting that light should have lots of range and performance
scope...

~~~
0xDEEPFAC
Yea... is it just me or are cars just plain ugly these days (yuck).

[https://www.motortrend.com/cars/land-rover/range-rover-
evoqu...](https://www.motortrend.com/cars/land-rover/range-rover-
evoque/2017/2017-range-rover-evoque-convertible-first-test-review/)

[https://www.diariomotor.com/2010/05/09/el-morris-mini-
minor-...](https://www.diariomotor.com/2010/05/09/el-morris-mini-minor-
original-frente-al-mini-countryman-david-y-goliat/)

Draconian safety laws for manufacturers mean less visibility with narrow
windows on the front, barely back window (backup cams required), and huge
a-pillars.

So apparently we get safer cars but can see anything infront of us.

[https://www.wardsauto.com/news-analysis/new-pillars-
enhance-...](https://www.wardsauto.com/news-analysis/new-pillars-enhance-
safety-impede-visibility)

Video of child not being seen by new car (he is unharmed though)
[https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=9p7iH_1570391082](https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=9p7iH_1570391082)

~~~
ryandrake
So many cars built within the last ten or so years look like the same boring
identical bar of soap on wheels. Minus trivial details like the headlight
cluster and grille, you really can’t tell most 4 door sedan brands abart
unless you look closely. I wish the Cybertruck succeeds, not because I need
one (I don’t) but because finally someone out there is trying to get a little
creative with styling again!

~~~
0xDEEPFAC
I actually go an opposite approach. I am buying old cars - the market is great
here in the US.

I got a 47k mileage 1991 Mazda Miata for 4500$! And the girlfriend loves how
cool it is and shifting stick. You should try to snag something from the 90s
before people realize how nice they are.

Modern cars are spy machines needing constant software updates and nonsense
features like "push button start" which is probably just a ploy to no longer
have to make complicated ignition switches.

~~~
decebalus1
that's nice and all. But if you collide with one of these new spy machines,
you'll figure out why it's not the greatest idea to prefer old cars when you
can afford newer cars. Safety is not something it's worth being a luddite for.
I agree with you, even as a software engineer, I find it disgusting the amount
of computing power my Honda has for that matter. However, if I run off the
road, I would rather be in my current Honda than in my previous Honda (pre
2000).

I think the 2010-2012 strike a sweet spot for what you're saying. Reasonable
safety, not a lot of software.

~~~
0xDEEPFAC
True, it is dangerous to drive a cool sports car. But its light and it handles
well - its even modular with a huge aftermarket meaning I was able to easily
spend an extra 1k and get both upgraded brakes and rotors installed.

Besides, if my girlfriend and I want to take a risk an enjoy a nice car I
don't like the government telling me otherwise.

You're right about that date range, probably the best without software that
thinks its better than you. Its going to be bad when cars have full electronic
steering with no mechanics - you will essentially be holding an xbox
controller and have no idea about your cars alignment lol

------
Ididntdothis
I am always amazed when you see an old Mercedes S class on the road. This used
to be a generously sized car and now it looks like an average compact.

~~~
gambiting
The difference being that the new one can survive a straight t-bone at
50-70km/h and everyone walks out unhurt, while that's not necessarily the case
with the old one. Just look at the size of the door sills and the actual depth
of the doors - there's at least twice the depth of doors from a 1980s S class
for instance, a lot more crumpling to work with.

------
Paperweight
What about the perverse regulations that punitively tax and restrict the
production of smaller cars, because they use more fuel per unit weight?

~~~
HungSu
Do you have a source for these regulations?

~~~
Paperweight
US CAFE standards are well-known to have resulted in the switch from station
wagons to minivans and SUVs, resulting in a great overall increase in
emissions than what would have otherwise occurred.

The new (2020/2021) European regulations allow approximately 1 g/km of extra
CO2 emissions per kg of extra curb weight for passenger cars. [1]

It's actually less emissions per _unit_ mass, so I was wrong on that fact, but
the point of perverse incentives to make cars bigger to be allowed more
emissions still stands (I think?)

Also, diesel vehicles are basically banned in most places _unless_ they're
coal-rollers - even though they have way less CO2 emissions than their
gasoline counterparts.

In my opinion, if the North American and European governments had truly wanted
to reduce absolute levels of emissions, instead of just following existing
technology and trying to take the credit for it (like they do for NOx
emissions, and probably will for electric cars), and making complex rules that
favour certain manufacturers at the expense of others, then they'd have just
have made a Kei car category. [2]

[1] [https://ww2.frost.com/frost-perspectives/european-
emission-r...](https://ww2.frost.com/frost-perspectives/european-emission-
regulations-will-stringent-emission-regulations-choke-automotive-industry-or-
will-oems-find-their-way-out/)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car)

------
JshWright
I was in San Francisco last week, and the car rental agency "upgraded" me from
the compact I had requested to a full size SUV.

Fortunately we weren't staying in the city, but that thing was definitely no
fun headed up Hwy 1...

I regularly drive ambulances and fire trucks, so I'm used to "aggressively"
driving large vehicles, but that was a whole new level of stressful.
California either needs wider roads, or to mandate narrower cars (it seems to
have worked well enough for emissions...)

~~~
jmkni
I had a similar experience in London recently. I wanted a small car because,
well, it's London. They "upgraded" me to a big SUV thing.

~~~
switch007
It’s their fleet. They have an awful lot of crossovers and SUVs (presumably
because that’s what is popular with our market) but they continue to
misrepresent their fleet in their booking engines (it’s been years now).

------
trixie_
A recent trip to Europe and the cars, trucks, highways, roads, etc..
everything feels smaller. Parking garages are the worst, so narrow you can
barely see if you're going to scrape a wall or car. You really have to use the
force.

~~~
try_again
I'm glad to hear this perspective and know it's not just me. I live in Europe
and parking in a garage here always raises my heart rate. I don't think I'd
make it without parking sensors. Some people I know just slam their car in
there in one quick swoop. I don't know how they do it. Even driving past
parked cars makes me feel like not hitting side mirrors is just an act of
faith.

------
yingw787
I wonder how much of this is due to safety, and if size expansion is due to
safety, whether it’s a matter of trying to be in a bigger car than the other
guy. Is there an ideal car size or will cars grow forever?

~~~
notatoad
I dont think it makes sense that wider cars are an attempt to be bigger than
the other guy.

Height, yes absolutely, but wider cars are safer because they have more room
to crumple and space for airbags and reinforcement in the sides. The thickness
of car doors today vs cars from 20 years ago is pretty drastic.

------
robin_reala
I was going to bring up the Mazda MX-5 as an example of a car that shrunk in
its latest generation, only to find out that the current model is the widest
by a whole centimetre.

~~~
AWildC182
I used to barely fit in the NA but I can't squeeze into any of the later
models without amputating my legs. I'm not sure how they did it because
otherwise I'd be first in line to buy another.

~~~
ndiscussion
I removed the driver-side door grab/armrest in my NA. Gives me about 3" extra
room. Perhaps that's possible on newer models?

I popped off a couple plastic panels, unscrewed the bolts, and it came right
off. Then I attached a loop of cloth with a washer so I could close the door.

------
AWildC182
The layout of these cars also plays an important role. Sedans have been
getting bigger because the internal space is wasted in every possible way and
manufacturers have been struggling to sell the smaller ones given how useless
they are. That market segment has been completely dominated by the new
generation of small hatchbacks like the Honda Fit/Scion XD/Toyota Yaris etc.

------
SigmundA
My RV is 102 inches wide not including the mirrors. Apparently that's the max
allowed federally by the US although technically in some states it may not be
on smaller roads and might be the old standard of 96" though never heard of
that being enforced. Most Semis and box trucks are 102" wide.

I believe the max allowed length is 65 feet, my RV is 32ft plus I tow a jeep,
probably close to 50ft total. Height is under 13 ft.

Interstate driving is no problem it gets pretty interesting driving around in
the city, but surprising where you can fit it. Both the width and height cause
the most issues.

Normal cars and trucks still have room to grow within the federal limits, I
don't believe any are 102" wide, full size dual rear wheel pickups are only
96" and the Ford Raptor is 86" and a Lambo is 80".

Driving my RV feels like driving a room down the road, there is about 3 feet
between me and passenger.

------
rjsw
I once got stuck behind a Lamborghini on a mountain road, it was too wide to
get past any other cars.

~~~
Ididntdothis
I used to have a Lotus Elise. With cars that low you don’t see much if there
is just some grass growing along the road. Makes it really hard to pass other
cars or go fast with no visibility.

~~~
taborj
Yeah, but then you take a corner at 4 times the recommended speed, and it's
all worth it...

Got a chance to take an Elise around some good roads. What a blast.

~~~
762236
Nah, those cars are too competent. Taking a corner at 4x the recommended speed
in an e-Golf, or Crown Vic, is a blast.

------
Tepix
There is some interesting related research being done by the DLR (German Space
Agency). They have developed a low-weight chassis for small light-weight
vehicles (the european L7e vehicle class, i.e. up to 450kg (1000lbs) without
battery) that achieves good crash test results:
[https://www.spotlightmetal.com/dlr-tests-ultra-light-
commute...](https://www.spotlightmetal.com/dlr-tests-ultra-light-commuter-
car-a-765541/)

Just switching to electric cars will not save the planets resources. We have
to use less resources by using smaller, lighter vehicles instead of heavy
SUVs.

~~~
akadruid1
Doesn't matter what kind of black magic you put into a tiny car, a big heavy
SUV will destroy it in an impact and barely take a scratch. People buy big
SUVs because they "feel safer", and they're going to keep doing that without
some intervention. If I were a national regulator I would pass a law adding a
pollution rating and a 3rd party danger rating to the vehicle registration
plate.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
It's an irrational "feel safer" though. Despite no legislated requirement for
mixed size impact tests, enough have been done to see that tiny cars do
surprisingly well. Whether the microscopic Smart Car against an max size old
Volvo estate, or super mini against a Range Rover. They are categorically
_NOT_ destroyed in an impact with the SUV barely taking a scratch.

I mostly agree with the rest though. :) My solution would be to copy the
Scandinavians with a yearly car tax derived from a combination of weight over
say 500kg and emissions.

~~~
akadruid1
This is a myth. There have been massive improvements in safety design and some
tiny cars do surprisingly well in some tests against old cars of any size -
but modern SUVs are much safer than a modern tiny car, and improvements to the
strength of the safety cage in large vehicles have offset the improvements in
smaller vehicles. Relative vehicle weight is still the biggest predictor of
occupant injury, and the types of impacts that kill occupants (small overlap
and side impacts) favour higher ride heights. There is no trick engineering
that can protect the occupant of a tiny car from a 2 ton SUV going through the
side window. You can see this in the data for average death rates
([https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-death-rates-by-make-
and-...](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-death-rates-by-make-and-model)) -
the death rate per million registered vehicle years for mini cars is more than
double the rate of SUVs.

Some work has been done to study this, you can find some links to papers here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash_incompatibility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash_incompatibility)
[https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6698/are-big-
ca...](https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6698/are-big-cars-and-
suvs-safer-than-small-cars-or-do-they-just-feel-safer)

------
tmnvix
I reckon small cars pose less risk to others. Pedestrians and cyclists can
easily see over them. Stopping distances are probably better. Ending up on the
hood/bonnet of a small vehicle rather than under a large one with it's very
high front end (often with an attached bullbar) is almost certainly
preferable. Finally, consider that large vehicles likely do much more damage
to other vehicles in a crash.

All in all I find ownership of a large vehicle to be a fair proxy for an
inconsiderate personality (bear in mind, I don't live in the US where large
vehicles seem to be the defacto choice).

------
Animats
Center consoles used to be seen only on large trucks. Now most cars have them.
That's width not used by the occupants. Even the Tesla Model 3 has a huge
center console, despite not having a driveshaft to hide.

~~~
metaphor
Most modern cars are also unibody, so the center console interior design
element isn't entirely without merit.

The axial bulge that would normally be concealed by a center console acts as
structural support in vehicles without driveshafts. Furthermore, if it exists,
the cavity will also serve as exhaust midpipe routing to the rear for improved
underbody aero performance. Some manufacturers also offer an AWD variant of a
chassis primarily sold as FWD--e.g. Acura TL, Mazda3--so design reuse is
another path to consider.

The Model 3 doesn't appear to fit this generalization, but a center console
still makes sense. It's a 5-passenger vehicle by design, so rear seating
arrangement will drive width constraint. You can't put a 6th seat in the
front-center position for obvious safety reasons, while leaving it empty would
miss the mark when compared to competing luxury vehicles around the same price
point (something about how America loves cupholders comes to mind), so filling
it in with a sleek and generous center console strikes me as the natural
direction to steer towards; it's cheap, serves a functional purpose, fills a
void and flows with the overall interior aesthetic. Besides, a closed luxury
cabin whose volumetric efficiency approaches 100% is a luxury vehicle that
simply won't appeal to the masses.

For a good idea of just how inconvenient not having a decent center console
can be, look no further than the ND Miata. Anecdotally, mine is a weekend
solo/track toy so not a deal breaker, but it's one of those things that can be
easily taken for granted until you don't have one anymore: fitting a pair of
sunglasses in the laughably small center compartment is like working a puzzle
piece, the large rear-center storage compartment can't be conveniently
accessed while seated unless you're a human pretzel, some smartphones won't
fit in the cubby hole designed to hold one, and retaining non-bottled drinks
with a passenger seated is a spill accident just waiting to happen.

------
acd
Cars keep getting heavier too. With electric cars and energy use it would be
good if there was a weight limit. It is normally safer in a collision if you
sit in a heavier car. But this length and weight race make cars heavier.

I guess one factor is car test where they measure trunk capacity in liters/
back seat leg room. Cars with more space usually get better reviews.

For global warming we need ultra light cars which are energy efficient or no
cars at all bikes.

------
Markoff
the article doesn't make sense

the Golf was essentially replaced by Polo nowadays. people are getting richer
so obviously the well known models are also getting bigger and fancier than
they were in past and if you want comparable model with the one from past you
must go one class lower

same thing applies with phones and display size/specs, it's the easiest way to
show customer the progress by offering him bigger display, sadly with
smartphones you don't really have small options anymore like with cars where
you just choose appropriate model

------
sharadov
People are getting bigger! I know a few people who are on the heavy side and
bought SUVs for this reason.

------
ggoo
tldr: regulations and people are getting fatter.

~~~
thorwasdfasdf
This! sometimes I think it would be nice if they produced a low cost small car
like the 1960s mini. with today's productivity they could build a simple
version for quite cost effective. But, regulations mean it's completely
impossible and so the cost of cars and their size keeps going up.

~~~
flyingfences
My personal perspective is that if I'm allowed to sign myself up for danger on
two wheels - a motorcycle - and danger on four lackluster wheels - an older
car - then I should also be allowed to sign myself up for danger on four
satisfying wheels - a new but small and light car. Cutting-edge impact
protection be damned; make me sign a waiver if you must.

~~~
ken
I've come to realize that laws aren't generally about fairness. They're about
whole-systems thinking. Lots of rules seem unfair if you're an individual in a
system.

The popcorn kernel that doesn't pop may feel slighted, but that doesn't mean
my popper is broken, or the kernel is.

Allowing car companies to make new cars which are less safe would cause more
injuries and deaths. We allow older cars and motorcycles for political and
economic reasons. Banning them would be even worse.

~~~
flyingfences
Here's a political and economic reason: modern cars, new and used, are
painfully expensive for large portions of our society. Most of these price
increases come from modern requirements for impact protection and other safety
provisions. Allowing companies to pump out <$10k econoboxes would be a boon to
low-income individuals.

------
egberts1
Wider center of gravity. Less incidence of rollover.

~~~
willis936
The roads aren’t getting any wider. I’m having trouble finding numbers, but I
would be surprised to learn if the occurrence of lane departure accidents has
gone down or stayed the same since cars have begun to get wider.

~~~
matt_the_bass
I have a VW Atlas. It’s the biggest car I have ever had. It’s volume is great
for road trips with multiple kids and a dog in a cage.

I too worried about lane departures (even though of course I think I’m a
better than average driver;). It has automatic lane assist which warns me if
I’m on the lane line without putting on my blinker. I’m pleasantly surprised
how infrequently it needs to remind me!

However more importantly I think it’s safety features of lane assist, adaptive
cruise control, front and rear assist (emergency breaking), and blind spot
sensing with haptic feedback are fantastic! If every can had these, I’m
certain driving would be safer even without autonomous driving.

~~~
taborj
The Atlas is on the short list for my wife's next vehicle. Nice to hear some
good impressions!

~~~
matt_the_bass
Other than its mileage efficiency, I love it! But that is a true critique of
all Vehicles in its size and I knew it going into it. If we didn’t have a dog
or require 3rd row, I’d get a Tiguan.

------
allovernow
Is this really a modern trend, or just cherry picked data? This article needs
a more thorough statistical analysis of car width through time.

I'm hesitant to take it at face value because, for example, to my knowledge
the classic American land barges of the 60s and 70s (many of which are quite
beautiful in an aggressive, almost obnoxious way) were quite wide - a 1969
Dodge charger is just a couple inches narrower than a 1990 Ford F150/Bronco,
for example.

~~~
starpilot
The Toyota Tacoma is a US-only car and is well-known in truck circles for
starting out as a "compact" pickup and becoming midsize. Per Google, the 2000
model was 67" wide, the 2020 is 75". An 8" increase is in line with what the
article describes.

I don't think compact pickups exist today.

~~~
ken
Not in America:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax)

~~~
toast0
The vehicles mentioned (sprinter vans, and Ford Transit) are classified as
light trucks, but most people would call them commercial vans or panel vans.
Pickup trucks were never commonly imported from Europe, and most of the
Japanese makes moved assembly to the US. While the 80s was really the peak of
compact pickups, they were still some made into the 2010s, although a 2011
Ranger is a lot bigger than a Ranger from the 80s. I don't think the 2019
Ranger comes in a regular cab either.

