
Facebook disabling messaging in its mobile web app to push people to Messenger - prostoalex
http://techcrunch.com/2016/06/03/facebook-is-disabling-messaging-in-its-mobile-web-app-to-push-people-to-messenger/
======
galdosdi
This is kind of convenient; it gives me one more excuse not to use facebook. A
few days ago I got the usual notification email that somebody had sent me a
message on FB. Clicking is a low barrier so I clicked, curiously. Then I
instead got the "No, now you have to install Messenger app" screen. That was
enough of a barrier that I said "oh forget it, who cares, anybody who knows me
would know better than to send me an FB message anyway, if it matters they'll
get in touch via a 'real' communications medium like email, text, or phone"

So sending me an FB message is now a black hole and I'm fine with that. FB's
decision just pushed me and all other similar users (users that already are on
the fringes of FB usage, using it only rarely) even further away.

I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or good thing for them, since honestly I
don't know what FB could do alternately to win back people in my "barely use
FB" demographic, and from comments here it does seem like people who actually
use FB regularly did not share my reaction ("screw it then") and instead felt
forced to install the app and move on with their lives.

~~~
gcr
I see it the opposite way. Using Messenge could give you a great way to use
facebook without subjecting yourself to the News Feed Giant Tentacled Monster.

Why not use Messenger without Facebook?

My reason not to use Facebook was because it trivializes friendships. With
Facebook, I wouldn't have to go out of my way to be "friends" with someone, so
the relationship would be less meaningful. But Messenger doesn't share that
property --- you have to bother to click on someone's name and you have to
bother to think up a good message to send them. That means it's no worse than
any other IM client, with the strong advantage that your real-world friends
already use it. You get to keep up with them in the way you want to, and they
get to keep up with you in the way they want to.

Best of both worlds?

~~~
pikachu_is_cool
There's a ton of reasons to not use Messenger.

1\. The mandatory "seen" indicator

2\. All of your messages are beholden to a private company, permanently stored
in plaintext

3\. They analyze said messages to deliver advertisements. Seriously, one time
I mentioned buying a Samsung SSD to my friend in chat, and all of a sudden I
got a ton of SSD advertisements on the sidebar. Same thing when I mentioned
Rick and Morty.

4\. It's Facebook, for crying out loud.

~~~
alexland
Most of these sound like reasons not to use Facebook in general.

While the seen indicator is a legitimate annoyance, it's been commonplace for
some years now. I don't know of a modern chat app that doesn't have it.

As for the rest of your points, Facebook's money comes from ads. These
concerns are not limited to chat, but using Facebook in general. As you browse
the web, Facebook is tracking you and using the data to deliver more relevant
ads. As you comment and make posts, Facebook uses the data to deliver more
relevant ads.

Every part of the service is designed to help them do this, saying that these
are reasons to "not use Messenger" is missing the point. The point of using
Messenger is that you're not tied to any other portion of Facebook. You just
get to message friends, plain and simple. The benefit is you're not being
enticed into scrolling your news feed, spammed with notifications about
upcoming events etc.

Plus, there are rumours they're going to bring e2e encryption in a la
Whatsapp, which would pretty much squash points 2 and 3.

~~~
gcr
I'm waiting for the next chat service to emulate the 'ytalk' and 'talkd'
practice of the 1980s to echo all keystrokes to the other party as they're
typed, rather than waiting for the user to press send.

"Instant Messaging" indeed!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_(software)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_\(software\))

~~~
christop
There's a nice XMPP extension for that.

Spec:
[https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0301.html](https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0301.html)
Demos: [http://www.realjabber.org/](http://www.realjabber.org/)

Not that Google (or whoever) are going to implement it now...

------
jds375
So rather than fixing the problems that result in users messaging via the
mobile web app instead of the messenger app, they're just going to "solve" the
problem by forcing users to use the messenger app? This is why Facebook as a
company doesn't have high levels of consumer trust. This will bite them in the
future. Once you lose that level of trust it is extremely difficult to gain
back.

~~~
SturgeonsLaw
I suspect it's less about solving problems and more about breaking out of that
web browser sandbox to siphon up more of that juicy, juicy data.

~~~
ACow_Adonis
Apologies, my computer mouse malfunctioned and I downvoted you while swapping
between windows, and I felt so bad about doing so I feel compelled to comment
:(

And I actually agree with you...

~~~
bookwormAT
Well, I did not intent to vote that post, but now I upvoted it just to undo
your mistake.

~~~
therein
He agreed with him so I just upvoted his post to give him back the upvote he
meant.

~~~
Koshkin
I have always found it surprising that someone may honestly think that
upvoting and downvoting can be used to express agreement or disagreement. If
you strongly agree or disagree, just reply with a post of your own;
up/downvoting is there so you could express your opinion on the quality of the
post rather than whether you think that what it is saying is true or false.

~~~
tsuraan
Paul Graham, who started HN, is one of those people:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171)
. Generally, HN strongly discourages "me too" or "i agree" type comments. We
prefer to just upvote comments in order to keep discussion threads interesting
and on-topic.

~~~
ENGNR
It's pretty much upvote to agree, downvote if it doesn't contribute.

Of course the next highest child is then always the next most agreed upon
counter argument since they should reply instead of downvote, which can make
HN feel a bit contrary but full of good discourse

------
rietta
I dislike this change. I specifically only access Facebook on my phone via the
web app because (1) it saves significant battery and (2) I absolutely do not
want the popup bubbles during the work day from church and other social groups
I am connected to on Facebook. Ultimately, all this means is that I will stop
accessing Facebook Messenger on my phone all together. I will communicate with
the people who matter most over the Signal app or plain old SMS or email.

~~~
click170
Not to mention that Facebook has intentionally changed the email address of
contacts in people's phones without asking them [0].

This does not change my mind about banning all Facebook apps from my devices,
it just means even less Facebook for me.

[0] [http://www.cnet.com/how-to/facebook-changed-your-e-mail-
addr...](http://www.cnet.com/how-to/facebook-changed-your-e-mail-address-
heres-how-you-can-change-it-back/?_escaped_fragment_=#)!

~~~
hk__2
> Not to mention that Facebook has intentionally changed the email address of
> contacts in people's phones without asking them

They changed it on FB, not in people’s phones.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
That's not true, the Facebook app was "syncing" local contacts with Facebook,
and thus modifying them.

~~~
hk__2
Oh I wasn’t aware of this "syncing" feature; I thought it had a read-only
access to your contact, that’s all. Thanks.

------
wwweston
Just an FYI for any Facebook product geniuses who might be reading this
thread:

If you're serious about this, you're going to also want to remove any non-FB
contact information for users (email, phone number) that might be displayed,
because I guarantee you that rather than installing Messenger that's what I'm
going to use if you let me.

And really, if you're going to be so blatantly user hostile, it makes sense to
really be thorough about it.

------
taurath
Eventually facebook will become so user hostile the network effect will mean
that so many people are leaving it'll be like Digg and Myspace all over again.
Can we go back to the time when companies tried to please users instead of
advertisers?

~~~
mrweasel
I'm not a heavy Facebook user, so I may very well be wrong, but I think
Facebook is slowly start to be less valuable in some respects.

For instance businesses need to start evaluating if they really require a
Facebook presence. The users that can reach you on Facebook are obnoxious, and
expects 24/7 feedback. Unless you are a small niche business you're simply not
able to build sufficient community around your Facebook page for it to help
further your business. For medium and large companies Facebook is just a place
for customers to complain and win prices.

As the company I work for has expanded and become less and less niche we
seeing decreasing user engagement from our customers on Facebook, unless they
can win a price. At this point marketing really should evaluate the continued
need for maintaining a Facebook page, it's just becoming a third support
channel, but one where peoples expectations are simply to high, in terms of
response time.

Honestly, why is companies like Coca Cola or Volvo on Facebook, it make zero
sense when you think about it.

~~~
simonswords82
The big companies have got a Facebook/Twitter etc presence because their
competitors have one. It's almost certainly a pain in the ass for them because
as you mention customers will use it as a public platform to beat the company
with when they're pissed off.

There was a period about 5 years ago when every company in the world thought
they needed to have Facebook, Google+, Twitter, LinkedIn and so on. It was a
serious case of FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) as opposed to a genuine business
case for social media.

I suspect we're going to see small and medium companies take a view that
maintaining a presence on social media is still not generating ROI. As a
result they'll consolidate to fewer social media platforms and perhaps at some
point none at all.

If SMEs (or SMBs as they're known in the US) take this approach, big companies
will slowly follow I'm sure.

~~~
aorth
Indeed! Though one example of a big company who has (notoriously) zero
presence on any social networks would be Apple.

~~~
realityking
Not quite zero, a couple of months ago they launched a support channel on
Twitter. [https://twitter.com/AppleSupport](https://twitter.com/AppleSupport)

~~~
tjl
They also have some accounts for specific things, but no general Apple one.
The support channel is about the closest to an official overall Apple account.
The support channel seems to be pretty decent so far.

------
yefim
Now it's going to be much harder to send messages from your friend's phone
when your phone dies. Before you could use an incognito tab, and now you have
to log out of the Messenger app entirely and log in as another user.

~~~
e12e
Thank you for bringing up this point - I've often thought about it before, but
I didn't immediately think of the connection here. Just another reason why
these kinds of changes are a bad idea. It might not be that often that you're
without your device (battery died, stolen, forgotten), but _when that happens_
not having a great fallback is really annoying. This goes for all kinds of
apps and services, not just fb messaging.

------
prdonahue
Facebook's forced migration of their users from basic, functional chat is, in
my opinion, more frustrating than any single decision they've made to date
(perhaps second to platform risk materializing to those businesses built on
top of them).

I once had a (protracted) debate with one of their earliest product designers
who defended the decision unconditionally. His arguments were—more or
less—"it's better for the user". If instead it was simply "it's going to
improve our bottom line" I'd not have given much of a second thought. It's
just changes like this that they attempt to spin as positive to their users
that drive me crazy.

ETA: found the convo from August 2014 and pasted below. Note this is when they
first disabled within the app (and you could start the download to trick it
into letting you continue).

> Me: Jared, i get that they want to encourage adoption of the standalone app
> -- probably for some business purpose, now that they're publicly traded --
> but why cripple existing functionality just to obtain that goal? make it
> annoying so that you have to dismiss the "upgrade" comment .. fine. the
> _only_ reason i can see is profit, which is fine/just own it, but people are
> masquerading this as a good product decision for users which i disagree with
> (obviously).

> Jared: A force is rarely a good product decision. That engenders distrust,
> and certainly they did not predict the frustration that would occur.

I whole heartedly believe the standalone application is better.

I believe Facebook took a calculated risk, but not a disingenuous one, and not
one targeted at making money, one of the form of 'you won't know how to fly
unless I push you out of the nest and then, woah, how much you'll thank me'
and their convictions, which were backed by engagement data, were unable to
actually test the event of "forcing the change". The reaons I belive they took
the risk were to minimize ongoing development of a duplicative codebase and
achieve engineering focus.

Now, with similar information to Facebook, I ask myself what would I do -
would I recall the change with a more transitional approach (e.g. 60 days
until install)? Or your friend sent you a sticker / selfie / audio file, to
view use the new messenger app? It's a tough question and I pose it back to
you, what would you do?

~~~
cheriot
"better for the user" does not mean "better for EVERY user". A product team
has to prioritize. I hate the permissions demanded by messenger, but for me it
is nicer to use than the mobile site.

I'm curious what people prefer about the web chat version?

~~~
SturgeonsLaw
The web version has no obnoxious notifications (yeah I know you can block
them), but the big reason for me is that it's unable to access your contact
list, text messages, photo gallery, camera, microphone and GPS. I don't want
to share that information with Facebook/5 Eyes.

~~~
kamjam
I stopped using the FB App back in 2014 when the upgrade required a whole heap
of additional permissions - the ones you mention. It then forced the update
along with separating out the Messenger app.

The mobile web version gave me everything that I needed when using FB -
checking some occasional updates, messages and people posting baby pics.
Nothing that requires a separate app, and nothing that requires an app, esp
since you _need_ to be connected to the internet to see _anything_. I really
don't see (from my perspective) the point of any FB app.

The mobile view was awesome for me. This move blows. Since the messaging is
still available on the desktop browser version, this literally means zero
extra development time.

FU FB.

------
SimeVidas
This is hostile as fuck. Just clicking on the Messages icon on the mobile
website launches Google Play Store.

~~~
whyagaindavid
Use this app to "intercept"
[https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.surrel.messe...](https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.surrel.messengerbypasser)

~~~
qmr
The amount of stupid hacks I have to go through to make Android usable is
making me consider trying out iPhone.

~~~
ceejayoz
While I agree _in general_ and prefer iOS, in this particular case that's a
bit of an odd statement. On iOS you couldn't fix this behavior at all - the
"stupid hack" won't exist.

~~~
intrasight
That's why Android is winning. The easy things are easy and the hard things
are possible.

------
curiousgal
I know every time a post about Facebook makes it to the front page here people
say they don't use Facebook anymore but as a heavy Facebook user I am so
fucking glad I blocked all Facebook domains last week. I feel liberated! This
move would have quite ecked me but nope! Fuck you Facebook.

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
Congratulations! I've tried that before, but have relapsed after a few months.

------
mfkp
This announcement coming on the same day as the post about Facebook not using
the microphone in the app seems strange to me.

I don't want any Facebook apps on my phone due to privacy and tracking
reasons, and so I used the web view (with an app wrapper like Tinfoil with
location disabled), now I won't be able to send messages any longer.

Guess I won't be using Messenger any longer.

~~~
xuki
You can disable microphone access for Messenger app. I disable everything and
only enable them when needed.

~~~
mfkp
I assume you must be on Android 6.0? Some (most) of us are still on older
phones without that functionality.

~~~
xuki
Ah you're right. I'm on iOS.

------
calsy
So much complaining. The web app version is crap, of course they want to move
people over to the app. Why waste resources on an inferior web version when
they can focus their attention on the very successful mobile app. Its just
good business sense and seeing that 99.9999999999% of Facebook users already
have Messenger installed, its a non issue.

~~~
SomeCallMeTim
The web app version has a whole lot of features that the installed app
doesn't:

* It takes up zero phone memory. Yes, this is _still_ an issue on really cheap Android phones. [0]

* It takes up zero phone resources, unlike the Facebook app, which is known for _slowing down your entire phone_. [1]

* The messenger app wants to send me notifications about stupid things and collect personal data using its over-broad permissions. I don't trust Facebook, and I'm not a tinfoil hat type.

* I don't want another chat ecosystem in my life, but if someone _does_ message me on Facebook, I'd like to be able to see it on my phone without having to install an idiotic, resource-sapping, spyware app.

I really, really don't _want_ a "good" Facebook chat solution. People want to
chat with me, they can use Skype, Google Hangouts, or Slack. Or just send me
an email and we can talk on the phone.

[0]
[http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_core_prime-6716.php](http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_core_prime-6716.php)

[1]
[http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/207468](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/207468)

~~~
calsy
Takes up zero memory and resources, that must be some magical web app.
Notifications, they can be turned off. Messenger is not a just another chat
ecosystem, it is THE chat ecosystem. The messenger app is not resource
intensive, it works fine. What makes you think Google, Microsoft and the Slack
teams intentions are more "pure" than Facebook? Facebook is not spying on you,
as much as you like to think your special, no one cares what you, yourself do.

~~~
SomeCallMeTim
>Takes up zero memory and resources, that must be some magical web app.

Sarcasm much?

If I'm not using it, it's using no resources. When I'm using it, then _duh_ ,
it uses transient resources in Chrome, but when I close the tab, it's back to
zero. If I end up using it once every two months, the amortized resource usage
is probably 0.1% of an app that needs to receive push notifications.

>Messenger is not a just another chat ecosystem, it is THE chat ecosystem.

Shill much? I just tried to check to see how many people had even tried to
contact me in the last year on Messenger, and it looks like I've received
about 5 messages in 12 months. But it's hard to tell, because the web app
keeps crashing/locking up. No other chat ecosystem I'm connected to behaves
that poorly.

If you're using it with all your friends, have a blast. Just don't expect me
to respond quickly if you message me; email on my secondary email account
would be faster. When I checked just now I found a message that I hadn't
noticed and that had sat, unanswered, for 9 months. Not the best way to get a
hold of me.

>What makes you think Google, Microsoft and the Slack teams intentions are
more "pure" than Facebook?

Nothing. But Hangouts is on my (Android) phone and in my life anyway. Skype is
what business contacts seem to _always_ want to use; I swear it has a 99.9%
market penetration for companies that do remote work or hire remote workers.
Skype also has awesome Skype-to-phone calling, including 3-way calls, that
works great with my high quality microphone and speakers, so I can talk hands
free and everyone can understand me well. And Slack is ideal for group and
work-team hangouts.

Why would I buy into another ecosystem? Just so that I can install yet another
app on my phone and on my desktop? I am _very_ reachable by email. If you know
my name, you can likely find a contact email for me within 15 minutes. If
someone doesn't have my email address and doesn't care enough to put in 2-15
minutes of "research" to find it, I'm not sure if I care whether they can
easily contact me. And if they must use Messenger, well, I'm sure I'll see
their message eventually.

>as much as you like to think your special, no one cares what you, yourself
do.

I'll just leave these here:

[http://www.geek.com/news/facebook-like-button-tracks-you-
eve...](http://www.geek.com/news/facebook-like-button-tracks-you-even-if-you-
dont-click-1380793/)

[http://www.ted.com/talks/alessandro_acquisti_why_privacy_mat...](http://www.ted.com/talks/alessandro_acquisti_why_privacy_matters)

[https://www.teachprivacy.com/10-reasons-privacy-
matters/](https://www.teachprivacy.com/10-reasons-privacy-matters/)

[https://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matter...](https://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters?language=en)

Many of these focus on government access to information, but many times
companies have just handed over anything the government has asked for without
a fight. Facebook absolutely is watching me along with billions of other
people. No, no one _at_ Facebook cares, but they're compiling a huge dossier
on practically everyone on the planet. So is Google, but I believe that Google
at least _tries_ to Do No Harm. And I don't use Gmail as my primary mail
service, either -- I also use Duck Duck Go for most of my searches.

I just think it's not healthy for any one company to have _too much_
information about everyone. Makes an oppressive government's job too easy, if
one should arise __cough __Trump __cough __.

------
cypher543
> At the moment, you can just dismiss the notice and go about your business.

Hah, if only it were that easy. When viewing messages in Chrome for Android, I
get redirected to Messenger on the Play Store when I close the overlay. Then
the Play Store opens again when I tap on a conversation.

Screw you, Facebook.

~~~
zem
requesting the desktop site still works in chrome for android

------
exolymph
User-hostile moves like this fill me with deep, deep frustration.

~~~
beagle3
Which is why they started doing them only after they have achieved world
domination. Where are you going to go, myspace? Google+?

To quote Mel Brooks' brilliant "History of the World, Part I" \- "It's good to
be the king".

~~~
cpach
More than 50% of my time is spent chatting in a specific small group of
friends. We used Whatsapp before (when they didn’t have web access). Before
switching to Facebook I tried convincing them to try Slack but alas that
option lost out. Too bad, because I think Slack is a really good platform.

~~~
beagle3
What was the reason to drop whatsapp? And why is slack better than facebook?

If you don't want to trust slack of facebook, rocket.chat is shaping up nicely
as a self-hostable solution.

------
lholden
I only use facebook over the browser when using my phone. The facebook
applications request an appalling number of permissions... never mind the
general intrusiveness and battery hogging.

Screw you Facebook.

~~~
davidbwire
Android 6 fixes this excessive need for permissions by mobile apps. You only
grant permission at runtime and can withdraw it at anytime.

~~~
e12e
As far as I know, it's still tricky to install an app, then revoke all
permissions before the app can possibly run? It would be different if no apps
got any permissions by default, and they all had to "prompt on first use" \-
but that's not how it works, or is it?

~~~
abhinavk
That's how it works for apps targeting API 23 (Marshmallow).

~~~
e12e
Right, but the fb app targets much older APIs? And/or how would you know
before installing?

~~~
marvin
I think it asks you when you install the app only if it targets an older API.
Not certain though.

------
alephu5
If fb can't support basic browser based text chat they have a major lack of
talent. If it's costing them much to support they have serious financial
problems.

I don't think that either is true so I guess they just want to sniff around my
phone. Sorry fb, not today.

------
Manishearth
Interestingly, it lets me use the mobile webapp messaging without asking me to
do anything. Because the OS I'm on has no Messenger app, and it probably will
never have one.

So if you spoof your UA string, it may stop bugging you and let you use
messenger as usual.

~~~
qmr
Parent is almost, but not quite, entirely useless.

Would you mind sharing with the class what that particular UA is?

~~~
Manishearth
Firefox on Firefox OS

Mozilla/5.0 (Mobile; rv:47.0) Gecko/47.0 Firefox/47.0

I don't think its useless. Pretty sure Facebook didn't special case Firefox
OS, they special cased android/ios. A random UA string (anything that doesn't
say android) would be enough.

------
daimyoyo
I saw this change last night. I will never, EVER install FB Messenger because
I don't want facebook to have access to my contact list. Period. This is the
worst move the company has made since Beacon and I am at a loss for words to
think of how they are justifying forcing people to use an app they clearly
don't want to use.

------
chamakits
Try Mbasic.facebook.com instead. I also use the browser for Facebook, and have
now switched to mbasic instead. It's great.

------
BuckRogers
I have a FB account but rarely login to it. I've never installed the app on my
iPhone because I don't want notifications and generally find FB distasteful.

If there was a higher class crowd on FB I would probably use it more but for
me it ended up being a bunch of people from my hometown / high school who are
angry, usually at other ethnic groups and don't seem wildly successful in
their own right.

If I do want to login, I just wait until I'm at a computer. The standalone
Messenger app is horrible for permissions and should be avoided at all costs.
If you can muster the strength to delete FB, even better. I'm able to _very_
easily not feel tempted to login to that cesspool so I haven't needed to
delete mine.

~~~
aembleton
You could just de-friend them.

~~~
fwn
...or unfollow them.

Most of the time, if someone complains about "stupid discussions/content" or
anything alike, I feel that facebook just isn't used in its full potential.

I unfollowed/unfriended/blocked all the connections to people who produce
content which isn't enriching my browsing experience. As a result I follow
around 10% of my facebook friends, which is a set of about 200 connections
with (mostly) valuable content.

~~~
BuckRogers
I would end up with about 10% or less like you said. I figured if I'm going to
start deleting people I'll just delete FB wholesale. Just helps me get spied
on anyway.

------
marme
i refuse to install the mobile app because there is no way to stop people from
calling you on messenger. There is no way to turn it off or have some kind of
do not disturb. If someone wants to mess with you they can just keep calling
you and your only choice is to block them and remove them from your friends
list

~~~
k-mcgrady
>> "If someone wants to mess with you they can just keep calling you and your
only choice is to block them and remove them from your friends list"

This seems like either a made up scenario or you have weird friends. Who would
keep calling someone to 'mess with them'???

~~~
lucb1e
A classmate when you're holding a presentation? It sounds entirely plausible
to me.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Why would you have your phone on while giving a presentation? Also, it's not a
very Messenger specific problem - they could do the same thing with your
actual phone number.

~~~
lucb1e
Well I usually put my phone to silent during class and especially
presentations. The person you commented on mentioned there is no silent mode.
Of course you could turn the phone off entirely, but then it takes longer to
turn on, and you have to unlock the SIM card again... quite a hassle just to
make facebook's apps shut up.

I don't know though, I've never used Facebook Messenger.

~~~
k-mcgrady
If you silence your device it will silence everything on it. No noise, no
vibrations, no way for apps to bypass it (iPhone at least, and I'm pretty sure
it's the same with Android).

------
georgemcbay
I'm not going to claim that my experiences here are the norm because I doubt
they are, but the primary impact of Facebook previously splitting Messenger
off into a separate app (from the native mobile app) in the circle of people I
communicate with on Facebook is that we all (organically, without ever really
discussing it) just switched back to using olde timey SMS/MMS for things that
would have been Facebook messages.

Not at all a spiteful/angry decision, just more of a "well, if I have to go
out to another app to do this shit, I might as well just use this thing that
works with all my friends including the increasing number of them that don't
ever login to Facebook anymore".

------
spost
I mean, to be fair, the only thing I use Facebook for is Messenger, and the
Messenger app is actually halfway decent. It caches user names and pictures a
little too aggressively, and the new trend of "let's add a row of buttons to
the text input box, doubling its size to reduce screen space for features that
should be optional" is incredibly obnoxious, but overall it's a decent app.
It's obviously not designed for the users, but it's better than the Hangouts
app.

This isn't to say that removing the web functionality isn't a dick move and
fairly user-hostile, but I don't really understand why so many people act like
Messenger.app is an affront to god and man.

~~~
ggsp
Permissions on Android, it seems like

------
colordrops
Speaking of dark patterns, Google has completely broken Gmail and Google
Docs/Drive in incognito mode in Android Chrome. It purposefully loses the
cookie and will not function once you switch away to another app and then back
to the browser. They are trying hard to force people into using the native
apps, or at least staying logged in, for GMail/Inbox and Drive. It's really
lame. Instead of being passive-aggressive, they could just put up a message
saying that they don't support a specific usage. This is a well known "bug"
that has been around in their bug tracker for a while.

~~~
jakub_g
Install Chrome Beta, Opera, Opera Beta. Voila, now you have 4 separate cookie
jars for different use cases. For staying logged in gmail/fb I use Chrome
beta, Chrome stable for normal browsing.

------
jeswin
As a heavy messenger user, my typical use-cases can entirely be fulfilled with
a web-based messenger. However, FB doesn't let people open messenger.com from
a mobile browser. And if you request the desktop site, it's virtually unusable
on the tiny phone screen. It must have been really hard to make a responsive
messenger UI.

------
robbiep
This is awful. I refuse to have the Facebook app on my phone, and obviously
refuse to have messenger too. The last thing I want is more of my
xommunications and data owned by that company. Fortunately I can do perfectly
well without reading my messages on the web browser. I hope this decision
marks an inflexion point for the company

------
roymurdock
I love how every HN thread about Facebook's scummy forced engagement tactics
always turn into Fbook addiction-denail support groups.

Just drop Fbook guys - trust me, you'll be fine without it. If someone
_really_ wants to talk to you they'll get your email or phone number through a
mutual friend/family member.

------
Zpalmtree
I really hate using Facebook in general, and very rarely have to use it for
group projects. I'm loathe to even load the website on my phone, so this is an
awful update...

~~~
lucb1e
I would encourage you to not give them what they want. Just use a
computer/laptop when chatting with some project group (that's what I did back
when Telegram and Slack didn't exist yet).

------
bunkydoo
Well this means I'm done for good with Facebook. My disabled account will soon
be deleted I guess, messenger is just packed with spyware :(

~~~
draw_down
Oh interesting, like what?

------
the_duke
I very determinantly refuse to install both the regular FB app and the
messenger, even though this is quite inconvenient as I often miss messages or
event invites. But they require pretty much EVERY PERMISSION there is on
Android, which is ridiciolous, and totally inacceptable to me.

So this change will make it even harder for me to access FB messaging. Buuh.

~~~
crummy
Are you on a modern Android build? You can now selectively enable permissions,
as of Android 6.0.

~~~
the_duke
I can't upgrade to 6.0 yet.

Also, I haven't tried it with FB, but a lot of apps actually fail or don't
work properly if you don't give them all of the permissions they require.

------
dec0dedab0de
I recently uninstalled both apps, and my phone seems to be running much
smoother since. If someone needs me they can text. I think it's time to ween
off facebook, and sell my stock.

------
pmontra
I think it's their second attempt at this. I remember when they were opening
dialogs to invite me use Messenger to reply to messages on a page I admin. I
switched the browser to desktop user agent, which on a tablet is ok.
Eventually they gave up. I'll do the same this time.

------
padraic7a
[https://github.com/gsurrel/MessengerBypasser](https://github.com/gsurrel/MessengerBypasser)

Problem solver for Android. Available via fdroid.I use Tinfoil for Facebook
and this compliments it nicely.

------
chrisdbaldwin
Why is anyone using Facebook for chat at all? (Real question)

~~~
dingo_bat
Because everyone has it. And it doesn't need a phone number. So it's almost as
ubiquitous as SMS, without distributing your phone number. Win-win.

~~~
chrisdbaldwin
So if its main selling point is being ubiquitous, why the fuck wouldn't they
force everyone to the same platform?

~~~
yellowapple
I have the opposite question: if its main selling point is being ubiquitous,
why the fuck wouldn't they want to maximize the number of ways users can
access it so that it stays, you know, ubiquitous?

~~~
dingo_bat
Yup, because they're idiots and it's moves like this that will allow an
upstart to steal all the market.

------
fma
I hate how when I go to a website it forces me to open it in the app. If I
Google a restaurant, and Yelp comes up, opens up in Yelp app....same with
Amazon. Seems like you can long press a link to open it in the browser...but
it's a very poor user experience.

When I am running low on space on my phone, those apps the the first to get
deleted Facebook and Messengae first, of course!. Facebook caches their data
and at one point it was at 700mb...with no way to clear the data except for
deleting the app and reinstalling.

------
jmspring
Well, this will mean even less fb interaction for me.

FB iOS apps were resource pigs and data whores. Neither installed.

Maybe I'll just vnc in to a browser on the home machine when I need to
message.

Otherwise, iMessage it is.

~~~
foobarbecue
I read "FBIOS"

------
datapolitical
It's incredibly difficult to do end to end encryption well in a mobile
browser.

Facebook has hinted they are rolling that out and it will create all kinds of
frustration for mobile web users.

------
f_allwein
You can also use Trillian for FB messages instead of installing the FB app.
[https://www.trillian.im](https://www.trillian.im)

~~~
sp332
Seconded! I use the paid version but the free version supports Facebook
messenger just fine. I just got my brother on it yesterday and he already
recommended it to everyone fed up with the new change.

------
yason
You can just switch over to the desktop version of Facebook and the messaging
will work as on a desktop browser. You can also use messenger.com by
requesting the desktop version. It sucks but not as much as the intrusive
messenger.

The trend is alarming though and just fortifies my perception of Facebook
further. They're trying to make their cust..uh, _I mean, products_ , behave
the way they want instead of listening to what people want and how they want
it. That's a classic bad move from any company. Since this is HN, wasn't
success supposed to have a high correlation with "Make something people want"
?

Facebook's leverage is mostly based on their user base. As soon as there's at
least one commonly used social network where I can find most of my friends,
bye bye Facebook. That is a ridiculously hard problem to solve and Facebook
know that. At the same time they're just using more and more of that leverage
by trying to force things down on people's throats instead of adding to the
pile of reasons why people would want to use Facebook. This makes it
imperative that once something else, something even moderately bearable _that
is not Facebook_ , becomes available then people will be fleeing in masses.

------
erikb
Yes, enforcing your users. That is how it works. (/sarcasm)

I was a very active facebook user for a long time and never imagined that I
could stop using it, having so many of my relationships hosted in there. But
honestly it all went so strange. 90% of the FB notifications are spam. The
very good inapp chat was replaced by a worse extra app and now they enforce it
everywhere. In the end I just deactivated notifications for all of that.
Byebye, social network.

~~~
sdoering
I rotally agree. During the last months I monitored myself using FB less and
less.

For years I have to used the app or messenger. If needed I only ever access
the website. If they take the messaging functionality away I will even use it
less. Or leave it all behind.

------
beedogs
I guess people will just have a hard time getting a response out of me if they
try and contact me via Facebook message. The Messenger app will never touch my
phone.

------
wilwade
I don't use FB, but my wife does. She is quite unhappy about it. She doesn't
want FB to have access to everything (yes, some poor folk like us are not on
Android 6 and will not be for a while.).

The other issue is the size of the app. I realize that most people don't have
this issue, but on the lower end phones adding another 36mb app means loosing
another. And given history that 36mb app is likely to be 80 by the end of the
year.

------
dump121
Its funny how every post about FB on HN, brings out users claiming not to use
FB and so now they have so much free time now, which they can use to discuss
FB :D

~~~
trakout
Are you sure it's funny?

------
JoshMnem
Simple solution: don't chat on Facebook. Reply via the web interface and tell
the other person to send you an email, SMS, or Google Hangouts message.

~~~
curiousgal
Simple yes, practical no.

~~~
yellowapple
Practical enough for me. The only thing I use Facebook for is to say "Thank
you" when folks wish me a happy birthday on my "wall". For literally
everything else, the friends and family worth talking to have gotten the
message that I'm not reliably reachable on Facebook and therefore should be
reached by other means (and if they're worth talking to, they should already
have my phone number and/or email address).

It's about drawing a line. I drew that line two years ago, and not once have I
looked back or otherwise felt any semblance of regret or frustration from it.
Among SMS, email, Telegram, Google+/Hangouts, ordinary phone calls, snail
mail, in-person, and the cornucopia of other communications options out there,
there's zero reason to put up with Facebook's nonsense.

~~~
e12e
Then why do you even have a facebook account?

~~~
wutbrodo
I use Facebook (somewhat sparingly) but considered deleting my profile a few
years ago, when I wasn't using it at all.

I decided against because it was so useful as an "every once in a while" inbox
for people who wouldn't have been able to reach me otherwise: a girl I met at
a party, a cousin from Australia who happened to be in town for a couple of
days, etc etc. The former would either never find me (depending on how big the
party was) and the latter would have to jump through the hoops of chaining
phone numbers through our large extended family. Both of those are handily
coopted by having an almost-universal directory, with customizable amounts of
information displayed, along with photos so you know it's the right profile.

~~~
bogomipz
Or you know, you guys could have emailed each other. Everyone still has email
and you know what its the one thing on the internet that always works really
well.

This is typical trope of the "why I have to be on FB." Download everyones
contact and or sync to your address book. When people are in town they text
you or email you. Trust me it works. People found each other just fine before
FB and they can just find now.

~~~
wutbrodo
> Or you know, you guys could have emailed each other.

Um, did you actually read my comment? Roughly half ofit was dedicated to the
fact that being able to find me by just my name and photo is easier than
trying to track down my phone number; I'm not sure how you missed that....

Why do you think it would be any easier to find my email address? If anything,
connecting us across my extended family would be a lot harder through finding
a bunch of emails than finding a bunch of email addresses. I honestly don't
know what reality you're imagining where everybody has the email address of
everybody they know.

------
pritambaral
Behaviour like this is why we need efforts like purple-facebook[0]

I wish to be able to host purple-facebook on a server and throw a web UI in
front of it. It won't be as complete as messenger, but at least basic chat
will work without having to download a sneaky app.

0: [https://github.com/dequis/purple-
facebook](https://github.com/dequis/purple-facebook)

------
iokanuon
That's not true. You still can access the conversations from a browser on
Android.

\- press the chat icon

\- wait for Google Play to open

\- switch back to your browser

\- press the "X" on the "Your conversations are moved to Messanger" dialog

\- select the person you want to chat with

\- wait for Google Play to open again

\- switch back to your browser

Proof that it works:
[http://i.imgur.com/29BoF8V.png](http://i.imgur.com/29BoF8V.png)

~~~
gengkev
From the TechCrunch article: "At the moment, you can just dismiss the notice
and go about your business. But this summer the warning will become an
impenetrable wall, and your only option will be to download the official
Messenger app."

~~~
iokanuon
Aaand it's gone.

Now you can't dismiss it at all.

------
pfista
I'm surprised at all the hate coming from everyone. Then again I already use
messenger.com never used the mobile web app for chat.

~~~
sp332
Messenger.com blocks most mobile browsers.

------
brianberns
Facebook's "Paper" app has a better UI than the official client, and it still
has messaging directly integrated.

~~~
tdkl
It's not available all over the world and is iOS only.

------
cm2187
I am not a mobile app junkie, and I count the number of messaging apps on my
mobile: imessage, whatsapp, kik. That's already 3, ie two too many. Then I
would need to add facebook, telegram, google's latest thing, skype? I mean why
not a different messaging app for each contact? Why does facebook thinks I
need more messaging apps?

~~~
lucb1e
The only messaging app I have installed is Telegram. People who can't use that
(my cousin still has some old Blackberry, a classmate has no smartphone and my
dad has no messaging apps) can use good ol' SMS, and that works fine since
it's practically free nowadays. Problem solved.

------
Zelmor
Mark my words, pop-up advertisement will be served via chat-bots in a year.
Hence the push to an application that has a pop-up feature like those head-
bubble things.

I've been using Tinfoil for Facebook for a good while now, since my old phone
is just incapable of handling their applications. I guess it's time to just
delete my profile for good.

------
zatkin
I have the Messenger app. When I first installed it, it asked me to do the
following:

\- Enable Notifications

\- Enable access to my Contacts

\- Add my phone number to my FB account

I respectfully refused to allow any of this. __Every time __that I opened the
Messenger app, I got a pop-up asking me to enable Notifications. I enabled
notifications, then went into my iOS settings and disabled them. This stopped
the pop-ups, but now I see a red warning symbol on my Messenger "Me" icon in
the lower right which wants me to enable Notifications once and for all. I
also see another red icon on the People icon which says that I need to sync my
contacts.

I'm disappointed in the direction that Facebook is turning the Messenger app
towards. They seem to be desperate for these three options to be enabled.

------
nowaq
Did they notice people are uninstalling FB app? :) It's a bit scary to see how
they grab vast amounts of our attention. I've heard they aim to make the
Messenger a "business" communication app that replaces email. I sincerely hope
they will not succeed.

------
bfrog
Uh, I pretty much hate the facebook app these days because they're always
trying to cram their overly zealous messenger app down my proverbial throught.
No facebook, I don't want a bazillion notifications and another massive app on
my tiny phone.

------
DoubleMalt
Which means I will actively start steering my conversation partners to
matrix.org and vector.im

------
goblin89
That’d be the end to staying in touch through mobile FB in w3m on an EC2
instance SSH’d into from China.

(Not that it’s _that_ convenient… Gotta say though, impressed with both FB
being able to work in w3m, and with w3m being able to handle FB.)

------
stared
And I couldn't be happier. I discovered Messenger as "FB chat without all the
distractions" (and much snappier); and seeing that it gets prioritized
(instead of being an alternative way) is, for me, a good thing.

~~~
lucb1e
Fine that you are happy with it (though I have moral concerns with Facebook as
a whole, if you're happy with it, that's quite alright). However should that
mean that _everyone_ has to be happy with installing this app, instead of
being given the choice to use the website?

~~~
stared
In theory it is great when there are many choices. In practice, companies
focus - and it is better when they have a single working product than a few
almost-working products.

I don't want to say that everything FB does is fine - but this particular
product is OK. Looking other way - would I like to get a working standalone
product being integrated in FB, so that I cannot use it without viewing wall.
Hell no!

On mobile I use FB app anyway - so maybe it is why I don't feel the pain. (And
installed Messenger app quite some time ago.)

------
ptaipale
I dislike this change, but fortunately - at least so far - it is possible to
use Chrome on an Android phone and request the desktop version of any site,
and Facebook desktop version still allows using the messaging function in
browser.

I'm not going to install Facebook messenger, it east battery and reports my
location when I don't want it to. So if they kludge the desktop site so that
it doesn't work on Android Chrome, I'll just not use Facebook messaging.
Facebook should at least add an auto-reply function to tell anyone who tries
to message me that "please send email to xxx instead".

------
joshschreuder
Are they getting rid of messenger.com too?

~~~
kobayashi
When I navigate to it on my OS X and iOS platforms, it just pushes me to
download the app. Was there ever something different there?

~~~
dingo_bat
Chrome on Windows 10 shows a full-fledged messenger UI. It's quite nice. It
does not redirect to the Windows universal app.

------
cs702
Free market ideologues would have you believe that companies have only
incentives to improve their products and services, giving customers what they
want, so the company can earn more. Competition will ensure this happens,
right?

Not in this case. Here we have a company that has incentives to _cripple_ its
product and services, taking away from many customers features they clearly
use and want, and giving them something else they clearly don't want, so the
company can earn more.

~~~
cderwin
You forget, Facebook's customers are not its users; they are assets whose
access they are selling to their actual customers, ad agencies and marketers.
Advertising made up nearly 97% of Facebook's revenue in Q1 2016[0]. Messenger
and messaging is something Facebook has not previously monetized, and I would
presume this is part of Facebook's plan to monetize messenger by releasing ads
on it in Q2 2016[1]. This all makes perfect sense if messaging in the Facebook
app is used by few enough of its users that the cost of maintaining and
monetizing it would be greater than ad revenue it could generate, which seems
reasonable to me. So, in fact, they are _only_ improving their products and
services for their paying customers, advertisers. I'm rather confidant that
Facebook would not be doing this if its users were its paying customers. [0]
[http://investor.fb.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=967167](http://investor.fb.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=967167)
[1] [http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/18/facebook-messenger-
ads/](http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/18/facebook-messenger-ads/)

------
vinceve
The reason I use the web interface and not the app are following:

\- you can't disable notifications \- you can't secure your app (aka Pin
protection or a password) \- huge battery drain as it is constantly connected
to the internet.

The web app is easy. You log in and you check your messages. An alternative
for android that I have found for Android is called fast Facebook. It shows a
web view of the chat and ignores the market:// redirects. Which is already
better.

~~~
iamdave
_\- you can 't disable notifications_

You absolutely can mute conversations, tap the (i) at the top of each convo,
very first menu option should be "Notifications".

With you on everything else.

~~~
zem
if i understand you correctly, that's muting conversations on a one-at-a-time
basis, which is not the same as being able to globally disable notifications
from the app

~~~
iamdave
You can disable those too, click the "Profile" icon (the one with the
silhouette) at the main screen, third menu option after user name and phone
number is notifications. Globally.

------
Karlozkiller
I found this app meant to fight this block by facebook.
[https://github.com/gsurrel/MessengerBypasser/blob/HEAD/READM...](https://github.com/gsurrel/MessengerBypasser/blob/HEAD/README.md)

I tried it with tinfoil for facebook and it seems to work well.

It also states that what crashes the tinfoil-app is a call to launch
Messenger.

------
exabrial
I don't want their battery sucking apps on my phone. Occasionally I'd like to
see messages people send me. Really really really stupid.

------
Jaruzel
I have a blackberry (BB10 based Q5) as my personal phone. The reasons for this
are manyfold, and I migrated from Android. I love my Q5 it does everything I
need really well... except for FB and Messenger - there's no native apps. So I
am now in the situation of trying to convert my friends to something else for
chat, or change my phone.

It will probably be the latter.

(Written via my Blackberry)

------
foobarbecue
I've heard that the reason there are so many "varieties" of products in
grocery stores (think varieties of Colgate toothpaste) is that the
manufacturers are trying to maximize the shelf space their products take up.

Are Google and Facebook doing the same thing with home screens? Is that why
they're smashing their big apps into little ones?

------
geggam
Facebook has peaked... its downhill from here... annoying the users so they
find something else small group by small group

------
cft
This is a nod probably towards the trend that Facebook itself is dying. What
is left is Messenger, WhatsApp and Instagram.

------
mkhpalm
Didn't they already do this long ago? I thought it was a few years ago that
they made me install messenger to use messages. That thing was a little too...
cowboy... with all those bubbles splattering all over my screen. I uninstalled
Facebook Messenger to save my sanity and haven't conversed via messages for
years.

------
em3rgent0rdr
FaceSlim has figured out a way to bypass this restriction:

[http://techcrunch.com/2016/06/03/facebook-is-disabling-
messa...](http://techcrunch.com/2016/06/03/facebook-is-disabling-messaging-in-
its-mobile-web-app-to-push-people-to-messenger/)

------
TylerH
It's already nigh impenetrable. Each tap or action within Messages on the
mobile site brings up that modal and also switches your active app to the
Google Play (or I imagine the Apple App Store for iPhones) store page of
Messenger.

Really, really, really annoying.

So I've just started requesting the desktop site on my mobile browser.

------
Globz
Might because of this new "Deep learning text" ? I know this will be mainly
integrated into Messenger.

------
peteretep
Help me understand - why is this so bad?

~~~
JoshMnem
Some people don't want any Facebook software in their phones for legitimate
privacy reasons.

~~~
peteretep
What is it that Messenger the app can access that Messenger via Facebook
cannot, for people who take their privacy seriously?

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
Privacy concerned users can use wrappers around the Facebook website, such as
the open source "Tinfoil for Facebook" or "Face Slim" android apps, then
Facebook cannot access certain things (depending on your configuration). If
have to use a proprietary facebook app, then likely cannot achieve the same
degree of privacy protections.

~~~
peteretep
I'm sorry. I still don't understand what specific information Facebook can
gather from them using their app that they can't from the browser. When I look
in my phone settings for the Messenger app, I can switch off it's ability to
look at locations, photos, etc.

Tinfoil appears to be an app to specifically work around the fact that
browsers can leak _more_ information than the app would.

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
well the facebook app is always on, even in background. It is probably reading
every keystroke and touch action, and even every pause between actions. But
when accessing the basic browser site inside tinfoil, they can only get http
actions you actually transmit, such as likes, login times, page loads, etc.

~~~
peteretep
You think apps can read the text you type in to other apps without your
permission?

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
Of course not other apps. I'm talking about the facebook app itself. When you
start typing text, it is presumably reading the delay between every keystroke
and all your deletes. However, on the non-js html site, it only can get the
text after you submit.

------
rufius
Honestly... That's the only part of FB I use. For a while now I've had _only_
the Messenger app installed and just a FB shortcut to the webpage on my
iPhone.

I only check FB about once a week and use Messenger daily with friends that
live or travel internationally.

------
Digit-Al
I had to uninstall the Facebook Android app and the Messenger app a while ago.
After an update, just having the apps on my phone was causing it to keep
stuttering. And if I actually opened the Facebook app my phone would
completely lock up requiring a reboot.

------
andrewmwatson
they did this before and rolled it back, if i'm remembering things correctly.

------
pasbesoin
The Facebook community is, by and large, a positive for the world.

The Facebook platform is one giant, dark pattern.

Here's hoping the community wins.

Why we need to continue fostering alternatives. Diversity and competition, to
keep things a little more honest.

------
stolsvik
Why do they want two apps? I have never used messaging in FB after they
started forcing me over to Messenger in a nasty way (I read the messages on
the Web platform when I happen to log in there, which is seldom).

------
allthetime
This is kind of a non issue... You can just use messenger.com, no need to
download an app. I'm probably biased though because messaging is the only
thing I really use Facebook for, and event tracking.

~~~
sp332
Most mobile browsers are blocked by messenger.com though.

------
bane
What is it with companies? Why force these unnecessary transitions. What kind
of possible revenue stream will the dedicated Messenger app provide that just
using the messenger on the web app not provide?

------
shostack
Anyone have a more informed opinion on whether this is in some way due to
their efforts with bots?

I'm guessing a native app enables a lot more on that front in some regard than
web, or perhaps provides a moat.

------
j45
I've been hit with this and rather than give in to Facebook wanting me to
install their messenger, will be looking into a third party app like Trillian,
etc to do my chats.

------
hobarrera
This seems to be the behavior last time I used the app (about 3-4 months ago).

Honestly, I just use Messenger without Facebok, since the IM part is the only
thing I'd need on the road.

------
andmed3
If only there was a way to disable fb messages altogether, otherwise people
who will be sending me messages there, will be distracted, and I will be the
one to blame...

------
ohthehugemanate
so... will it still work on facebook lite? For those of us who avoid the
official apps for battery/data consumption, FB Lite is an available middle
ground...

~~~
Zak
It looks like for the moment, yes. FB Lite isn't offered in Google Play for
users in wealthy countries, but there are mirrors for the APK.

------
pbiggar
So glad they're doing this. FB messenger is just about my favourite messenger
- it beats the pants off iMessage and isn't as annoying as WhatsApp (the UX
around starting a conversation with a new person in whatsapp is super shit).

It was really annoying that there's some holdouts where voice chat doesn't
work (has anyone noticed how much better the quality of voice chat over FB
messenger or iMessage is, vs phone calls). Or where they didn't get my
messages because they didn't have notificartions set up for FB messenger.

Glad they're fixing this (and I might be the only person on HN who is :))

~~~
sidcool
So what's stopping you from simply using the native FB messenger. What's the
point in forcing everyone install the native app?

------
edem
Yet they killed the FB messenger for PC. Makes no sense. Now if I'm at my PC I
need to log in to their website to chat since I only use this feature of FB.

------
unicornporn
[https://m.facebook.com/messages/](https://m.facebook.com/messages/) still
works.

------
marxidad
I can't install Messenger on my MotoG3. It slows it the eff down to a crawl
and drains the battery, even when I'm not using it.

------
kevincox
messenger.com has a functional messenger, that they are updating regularly and
it scales very will to different screen sizes. Unfortunately they won't allow
you to use it if they think your device is a phone, just pointing you towards
the native application.

I don't know what this obsession with native applications is. A lot of the
time I prefer to just use your website.

------
Brian_K_White
"Your conversations are moving to Messenger"

No problem. It's not there's conversations with dead people in there or
anything.

~~~
ori_b
The conversations are not lost; they're stored on Facebook's servers.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike the move, but this isn't one.

~~~
Brian_K_White
They are moved to where I no longer have access to them.

~~~
ori_b
They remain accessible, same as always; The only thing that changes is the
application you are using to look at the chat history.

~~~
yellowapple
Not everyone has access to that application.

~~~
ori_b
The desktop site still exists. It can even be viewed via mobile, for the
sufficiently desperate.

------
Animats
What was the alternative before Messenger? SMS?

------
MarkMc
And yesterday Pinterest forced me to install their app just to view a picture.

Native apps are really becoming dominant over mobile web apps.

------
ionised
That will be why Tinfoil has suddenly started crashing when I try to view my
messages.

All the reason I need to drop Facebook entirely then.

------
partycoder
People follow the path of least resistance and that path will not be
Messenger, but something else, like Google hangouts.

~~~
e12e
Granted, it's been a while since I used hangouts, but surely that'll not be
the path of least resistance. It's still a crap, web only interface? And
google just launced Allo to kill video chats in hangouts, so I guess there's
nothing left to save?

It'd be a good time for Duck Duck Go to revive it's XMPP server, and give it
some polish, IMNHO.

------
Tepix
I refuse to be pressured into installing Messenger. I will tell my Facebook
contacts not to use Facebook messaging.

------
orian
Oh, so it wasn't only me ~2months ago. I guess I ended up in an experiment ;-)

------
vu3mmg
I think facebook is trying to apply the bargaining power as a monopoly service
provider .Facebook is trying to act smart with new enduser agreement for
messenger .Facebook knows that, most of their user base will switch to
messenger .I think normal non tech saavy users dont bother much about this .

------
skykooler
Brilliant. So much for being able to use Facebook on a non-Android device.

------
Geee
It seems that the actual problem is Android with their permission system.

------
Fej
Messenger recently started killing my battery life so I uninstalled it.

------
kevando
"Company makes product and decides how users should use it."

------
Pxtl
Yuck. I guess I can't be reached by fb messenger, then.

------
intrasight
Previous long-time Facebook user here, but forgive my ignorance - what is
Messenger? An instant message app I assume? How does this differ/improve upon
the instant messaging built into every phone?

~~~
blhack
Messenger is a facebook instant message app.

It improves on what is already built into your phone because it hooks into all
of your facebook contacts, which means full names, and pictures.

~~~
intrasight
Not much of an improvement, IMHO, to warrant all this grief.

------
bricss
Screw you FB!

------
oneloop
It's really sad to me to see a bunch of intelligent people here being led like
sheep by Facebook (no, this isn't a sheeple post, hear me out)

Virtually everyone here complains "Facebook does XYZ really bad but I still
use them because all my friends are there".

I have a solution. Why don't you get all your friends off there? Pick a
platform that you really like and start evangelising. The only reason why
Facebook has as much power as it does is because of user lock-in, but that use
lock-in is only strong because no one fights it actively.

Example. A while ago, WhatsApp didn't have a webapp. Telegram did. I prefer
typing on my laptop instead of mobile if I can. Therefore, I started
evangelising from WhatsApp to Telegram. Now all my friends are on Telegram.
(They didn't leave WhatsApp, but now they use Telegram between them). (BTW, I
kind of regret this now that WhatsApp has a webapp AND encryption by default,
but that's another story).

So, stop complaining and do something about it.

~~~
Matt3o12_
How did you make your friends use telegram instead just for you? I use
iMessage with my best friend and my dad because it is my preferred way of
communication (it is fairly secure, easy to use, and I can reply from my
watch, Mac, iPad and iPhone, unlike any competitor except email). For
everybody else I have to use what's app because they cannot be bothered to
install an app just to contact me once a week (or some even once a month) and
email (my second preferred method of communication) is too complicated,
clumsy, old, or just too uncool for everybody to use (except for checking for
that registration link on Instagram).

You cannot just move a large group of people to another platform if you don't
have any authority over them (e.g. their boss) unless they want to switch on
their own (because their previous method is too unreliable, inconvenient or
expensive).

I, for one, would be happy if I can make my teacher believe that WhatsApp is
not a good idea to contact me for various things regarding my final exam. The
best way to reach me is always through email.

~~~
oneloop
"Hey did you check out that app I asked you?"

"Hey, the other day I wanted to text you and it's so much more comfortable if
I can type from my laptop, would you please install it? It's just like
WhatsApp, you won't even see the difference."

"Hey, remember that app I told you about the other day? Turns out that the
founder is this guy who cloned Facebook in Russia, and the government went
after him and stole his company, how insane is that? He's now cloning
WhatsApp, but better, could you please check it out?"

etc etc if there's a will there's a way

~~~
Matt3o12_
> "Hey did you check out that app I asked you?"
    
    
      - "Installing an app is always so complicated"
      - "Why not stick with WhatsApp. It works fine for me"
    

> "Hey, the other day I wanted to text you and it's so much more comfortable
> if I can type from my laptop, would you please install it? It's just like
> WhatsApp, you won't even see the difference."

"What's wrong with your phone?"

> "Hey, remember that app I told you about the other day? Turns out that the
> founder is this guy who cloned Facebook in Russia, and the government went
> after him and stole his company, how insane is that? He's now cloning
> WhatsApp, but better, could you please check it out?"

"What's better? And why would I trust a Russian more then WhatsApp. I don't
really think it is a good idea to install it"

I haven't even made up those answers, I've heard them one way or the other.
For most people, their phone just has to work and unless they mean a lot to
you, they won't really bother installing it. If most of your friends are tech
savvy, then your chances are good they are curious to try it out, don't mind
it at all, or even support you. But most just don't care and are afraid they
break things if they installed a new app.

I can even fully understand their decision. A friend of mind decided to ditch
WhatsApp altogether and now I can only call her because I'm not willing to pay
15¢ just for a normal text message. She only did it because she wanted to have
to deal less with social media but I don't want to. I turn off notifications
for WhatsApp every now and then if I don't want to get distracted but all in
all, I ust WhatsApp for 95% of all my personal text conversations.

------
areyoucrazy
I have stopped using Facebook (Twitter and everything social) half a decade
ago. I don't use messaging apps and turn on my phone only when I really need
to.

Result: more free time to do interesting and productive things and people
aren't bothering me as much. I have taken control of my life and I'm not being
pushed around to do things based on notifications or desire for artificial
status(likes, retweet, stars). Stop using these services that sell your
privacy, control your communication, make hostile changes and in the end do
not care about you.

~~~
e12e
How is HN not a social network? (I'm not being snarky, I'm just curious on
your line of thinking here)

~~~
shawn-butler
There is no network or linkage between users? And people are not allowed to
post inane topics or messages.

Pretty basic.

~~~
e12e
How do you think the voting ring detection works?

Some users post contact info in their profile, so there is the possibility for
messaging (email). Yes, there are policies, and structure and many good things
- I'm not sure that means that HN isn't a social network of sorts?

I suppose it might boil down to a technicality, but I always read "social
network" as a graph that describes how a group is connected - not as some
strict technological definition. So a bunch of people that informally meet at
a cafe to discuss politics, art and other topics can be described as a social
network.

~~~
shawn-butler
That is an implementation detail not a feature.

------
shrugger
Whoa, who would've thought that a multi-billion dollar company would ever make
a decision in order to promote newer versions of their own software?!?! /s

The whole point of Messenger is to consolidate messaging infrastructure. Being
able to glean customer interests from that is just a bonus. Mobile web app is
horrendous, and they know it, this is the solution.

I agree that Facebook lacks that trust with people, but they have every right
to try and make their platform better and more efficient, and don't
necessarily deserve the knee-jerk "they're up to something!" like this.

------
tdkl
So after this and screwing with Instagram (removed API access to timeline 3rd
party apps used and enabled global curated timeline only) I wonder what will
they ruin with WhatsApp.

------
XJOKOLAT
I don't want notifications. I don't use FB to chat.

I'm totally happy with the web FB.

And, maybe I'm wrong, but it appears like the FB app using a crap-tonne of
data in comparison with web.

Side benefit: FB app not following me around like a stalker.

------
Nitish_shah
fb account deleted.. just now

------
ben_jones
\- Spend $18bn to acquire Whatsapp's current and future users

\- Force people to download Facebook Messenger

\- ???

\- Profit?!

------
pomber
Where I live, messaging using Facebook is the most effective way to
communicate with my phone company, my ISP, etcetera.

That is the only reason I use Facebook messaging (I communicate with friends
using other services) and one of the few reasons I still have a Facebook
account.

Installing Facebook messenger app is too much just for this.

