

Middle school evacuated because of a science project - georgecmu
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/15/students-evacuated-school-chollas-view/

======
akadien
That's a fantastic way to encourage kids to go into science and technology
fields: make them think it's criminal activity and then send them to
counseling. I love the irony that this happened at a science and technology
magnet school where one might, by some off-chance, presume the teachers are
better informed. Way to go, educational system overlords.

Imagine if Jobs and Wozniak had lived today during this sort of thing. They'd
be sitting in Gitmo.

~~~
georgecmu
To be fair, it was the vice principal, not a teacher, who was concerned that
"it might be harmful" and notified the police. Certainly, school
administrators get promoted based not on their teaching or academic
credentials, but on degree to which they adopt the "erring on the side of
caution" mentality. What's terrifying is that it takes just one call of an
ill-informed, over-reacting person to set this kind of disproportionate
response into motion.

Personally, I think this story has broader implications than simply that
American students are discouraged from pursuing interests in science and
technology. I think it illustrates two socially destructive trends:

1\. To perceive anything science or technology related that has not been
marked with the corporate stamp of approval as a potential threat. Any device
with exposed wires that are not hidden behind a slick case with a logo must be
a bomb. Anyone that's using command-line instead of a slick GUI must be a
hacker, etc.

2\. To consider perception of safety above all; that is an over-reaction on a
massive scale is not considered anything short of normal. It's normal to send
a bomb squad to a kid's house on a mere suspicion of a school official. It's
normal to close down a major airport because of a battery explosion. And so
on, and so on.

~~~
seldo
Memo to terrorists: wrap your next bomb in a shiny white box with an Apple
logo. No one will question you.

~~~
hbien
[http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/10/tsa-cant-believe-
macbook-...](http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/10/tsa-cant-believe-macbook-air-
is-a-real-laptop-causes-owner-to/) =]

~~~
andreyf
In the TSA grunt's defense, the training course probably involved something
like "look for the hard drive, it's blue with a circle thing", "look for the
battery, it's green", etc. Replacing a hard drive with C4 could yield a pretty
sizable explosion...

------
jgrahamc
When I was in British middle school I got into trouble for bringing a small
tape recorder to school. A teacher saw it, it was confiscated and I was in
deep trouble. When I tried to explain to the deputy head that it was a tape
recorder and not a radio (which was specifically forbidden by school rules) I
was told to "shut up" and that I didn't have the "right to speak" because I
had broken a rule.

In the end my parents went to the headmaster and gave him an earful.

The good news is that the school's behaviour had a lasting impression on me:
people in authority act like assholes because they are in authority.

~~~
mixmax
Consider yourself extremely lucky to have such understanding parents.

~~~
jgrahamc
I do. I owe my parents an enormous amount. Hence the special thanks to them in
my book. They made a tremendous impact in my life by allowing me to be me.

~~~
diego
According to evolutionary psychology, you would have been yourself no matter
what. For example, Steven Pinker sustains in The Blank Slate that the
influence of parenting on personality, IQ and other more specific traits is
pretty much negligible (as long as you have "reasonable" parents). Variance in
those traits is 40-50% heritable, 50% due to factors outside the control of
parenting (accidents, diseases, peer groups, randomness during development)
and 0-10% due to parenting.

This sounds very counterintuitive to many people because it's not the way we
would like it to be. Many studies of adopted siblings, twins separated at
birth, and natural siblings who grew up in different families support this
hypothesis.

~~~
nostrademons
You could argue, then, that your parents are responsible for choosing where
you grew up and your peer group, and who your other parent is. They're still
100% responsible for how you turned out, it's just the critical decisions
happened before you were born.

~~~
diego
Not exactly. Your brain is shaped partly by randomness in the womb or in the
environment that is not directly under their control. This doesn't include
decisions such as whether your mother drinks or smokes but more chaotic
variables that cannot be controlled. Also, your parents can do their best to
choose what they consider a good environment (e.g. a city or a school) but
your innate personality is a stronger indicator of the groups that you will
tend to associate with in that context. This is why siblings who grow up in
the same environment chosen by their parents can have extremely different
personalities and peer groups.

------
hga
"The student will not be prosecuted, but authorities were recommending that he
and his parents get counseling, the spokesman said. The student violated
school policies, but there was no criminal intent, Luque said."

What possible sane school policies could exist at the "Millennial _Tech
Magnet_ Middle School" that the student could have violated? Don't do anything
with what we're teaching you outside of school?

I suppose there might be a rule of "don't bring in anything unless you get it
screened first", but ... geez. Given the level of screening they considered
necessary for this device, that doesn't sound likely.

I'm _really_ glad I went to school in the 1970s; heck, for my 2nd year in
JROTC teaching unit (my senior year in high school), where we went beyond
writting a lesson plan to actually teaching a lesson (in anything we wanted,
didn't have to military related), I used a page from the _Ranger Handbook_ to
show how to build an improvised booby-trap, with a bottle rocket as the thing
which went "boom" (mounted in a 2x4 block of wood; much better than a
firecracker, makes a lot of noise building up to the boom without as high a
single impulse).

The instructor was concerned for a moment until he remembered who was giving
the lesson ^_^. If someone tried that today they'd probably end up in jail
(then again, I suspect my home school district isn't this insane).

~~~
lutorm
_I'm really glad I went to school in the 1970s_

I was thinking the same thing (though more 80s than 70s for me). I was very
interested in chemistry from 7th grade and up, and did a lot of home
experiments including some more or less flammable stuff. This was at least in
part encouraged by both my chemistry teacher and my parents and grandparents.
Had this been today and in the US and the police had gone through _my_ garage,
it seems likely I would be in jail.

This stuff is extremely troubling to me. This hysterical overreaction will, as
many have already pointed out, serve to completely discourage kids from
nurturing their interest in science, and it makes me really, really hesitant
about the prospect of raising kids in the US.

------
jgrahamc
It seems pretty shocking to me that the boy's home was searched. Was there any
reasonable suspicion of anything?

To be honest, it's a pity we don't know the name of the student so we can
start sending him presents consisting of subscriptions to Make, electronics
books, chemistry sets etc.

~~~
rw
We could send the subscriptions to his school! Imagine how traumatized he must
be, now. He'll need counseling just to deal with the stress--not to overcome
his 'problem' making electronics.

~~~
CalmQuiet
Hopefully the counseling will include skills for coping with ignorant
authoritarian bureaucracies - essential for tech innovators outside of tech-
savvy settings.

------
nfnaaron
My kid is in 6th grade, which is middle school in these parts. He did his
science project over the Christmas break, which involved a Daniels battery
(zinc, copper, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate).

Although his science teacher had agreed to take the solutions for disposal
before the break, I was still cautious when I brought them in first day after
break. I left everything in the car, went to the office, asked them to call
the teacher to get his permission, and _then_ brought the chemicals in, all
the while trying to look like a straight citizen as I walked by the sheriff
parked out front as usual. I had exactly the OP's scenario in mind. No sense
pushing things when the world is nuts.

~~~
rdtsc
> No sense pushing things when the world is nuts.

Yet we have no qualms about our kids playing sports where they easily can
break their necks and knees. If you go to any school in US, you'll see
students with casts and bandaged knees and elbows. Most of those are sports
injuries. See how many children have "science" related injuries -- you'll
probably see none. So it is not that we want to protect our children, because
then we'd have to cancel football, but instead we end up teaching and
perpetuating certain attitudes and values that ultimately will put our country
at a disadvantage.

~~~
idm
Sure, you don't see science-related injuries yet...

...but we don't want the first science-related injury to be a mushroom cloud.

</sarcasm>

------
acangiano
You can politely email the Principal and the Vice Principal here:
[http://www.mtechmiddle.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=5866...](http://www.mtechmiddle.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=58660&type=d&termREC_ID=&pREC_ID=staff&hideMenu=1&rn=1211544)

~~~
Vivtek
So was the VP still listed as a VP when you found that page? Instead of "N/A",
as it stands now?

~~~
acangiano
Absolutely. She was listed as VP.

------
eplanit
Great, the school and police _traumatize_ a child for doing exactly what we
should want them to do: be inquisitive, curious, and creative.

The _parents_ need counseling!?

These news stories are not shocking anymore (sadly) due to how frequently
these absurd reactions are. What is very angering is how the reporter/news
outlet never indicate how disproportional and inappropriate the 'official'
response is. There's never a cautionary lesson on over-reaction; rather, they
always praise "erring on the side of caution" (i.e. erring on the side of
irrationality). Yes, fear will keep us safe, eh?

~~~
sailormoon
_Yes, fear will keep us safe, eh?_

Who said anything about keeping us safe? Fear puts butts in seats, which is
the entirety of the media's interest in the matter. Now stay tuned for the
shocking truth about child abductions in broad daylight - a report no parent
can afford to miss!

------
ricree
_"He was very shaken by the whole situation, as were his parents," Luque
said._

Well that will teach him to be interested in electronics. It's a good thing
that there's an overabundance of kids going into science and engineering,
otherwise this sort of thing could become a problem.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1056341>

------
mhartl
This reminds me of Star Simpson, the (former) MIT student who showed up to
Boston's Logan airport in 2007 wearing a sweatshirt with a light-up LED
circuit on it. She wasn't even flying, just waiting at baggage claim for a
friend, when one of the airport employees concluded that a 19-year-old girl
with an unusual sweatshirt might be a suicide bomber. 40 (that's right: _40_ )
police showed up, and she was charged with possessing a "hoax device"
([http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/09/19/star-simpson-once-
mi.htm...](http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/09/19/star-simpson-once-mi.html)).
I'm still pissed at MIT for throwing her under a bus; instead of saying "This
is ridiculous, clearly the airport staff and police overreacted", they bent
over and supported the authorities 100%.

~~~
neurotech1
I still think that the girl was stupid for bringing it to an airport of all
places. She had putty in her hand, that could be mistaken for plastic
explosives. Terrorists have been known to detonate explosives with hand
triggers when confronted. A 19yo MIT student should know better

IMHO An 11yo school student would be more deserving of the benefit of the
doubt on his project, than the girl at MIT

~~~
billswift
Your response, neurotech, suggests you really shouldn't practice brain-surgery
on yourself.

------
MikeTLive
Please send technical gifts and educational materials to:

Millennial Tech Middle School 1110 Carolina Lane San Diego, CA 92102 (619)
527-6933

------
pavelludiq
Im really confused. Are you telling me that in America, teachers are so
ignorant of their students, that their first assumption would be that the
device is dangerous? Didn't they bother to actually ASK him what it did? I
imagine an 11 year-old wouldn't intentionally himself up with his classmates.

~~~
ghujklkmnb
Yes - he violated the schools strict anti-thinking policy.

~~~
PieSquared
I go to a public school (and one of the best ones in the country (the US)).
Even here, that statement is so close to true in some cases I don't know
whether to laugh or cry... It's even worse IMHO with middle schools, because
that's the time period when a lot of kids internally decide 'oh I'm going to
be solely a sports person' vs 'wow! math and electronics and physics are so
cool.'

What gets me is that in our school, in one of the best schools in the country,
there's so much idiocy - I can't even imagine the levels of stupidity and
prison-like institution present elsewhere. (Funny anecdote: at one point last
year, the school staff started putting up _bars_ , expandable bars, in the
hallways to prevent people from leaving the cafeteria during lunch. There was
quite literally no way to get out and go anywhere, without bumping up against
an angry security guard.)

------
Luyt
That reminds me of the guy that was seen using a commandline window on his
laptop and got immediately suspected of breaking into the network. ("normal
people only use GUIs")

~~~
nfnaaron
And the guy (maybe the same guy?) who actually had a warrant served to search
his dorm room and seize his computers, based in part on the fact that he had
been seen using a command line.

The warrant was later quashed, don't know how or if the case concluded.

[http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/05/mass-sjc-tosses-
calixte...](http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/05/mass-sjc-tosses-calixte-
warrant)

The comments on Schneier's blog are interesting. I was surprised at the number
of people saying that the warrant was reasonable.

[http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/04/boston_police_...](http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/04/boston_police_c.html)

------
sketerpot
It's hard to believe nowadays that a President said something as radical as
what Roosevelt said in his inaugural address:

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning,
unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into
advance."

You _can_ be too careful, and schools need to realize it. Incidentally, so
does liability law.

------
whichdokta
In times of economic woe money may be scarce but time tends to be cheaper.

Mayhap this is a good time for getting back into the habit of parent
involvement with schooling?

I somehow doubt any school with a hacker club run by a couple of
science&engineering orientated dads would have these kinds of problems.

Wait for the school system to catch a wake-up and we'll be waiting forever.

~~~
ghujklkmnb
Isn't going to happen. Schools will object because of insurance/liability
concerns. Teacher's unions will complain Dads won't be allowed unless they
have a police background check.

Remember we must protect the dear little children.

~~~
blhack
The dads are probably all child molesters anyway. What possible reason could a
grown man have to spend time with a child other than to sexually abuse them?

In fact, we should probably take their own children away from them.

/'tis a sad world we live in :(.

~~~
whichdokta
'kay. HN just turned into Slashdot. I'm outtahere. Cheers, It's been fun while
it lasted.

~~~
dunstad
You seem to have missed the sarcasm.

------
jacoblyles
Our school system is incurably insane. Its actions are irrational, only
tangentially related to its explicit goals. Reform is likely impossible, like
trying to turn a cancerous tumor into a working organ.

------
onoj
I am quite concerned by this because it suggests to me that these schools
would have to start modifying the curriculum. What about exothermic reactions
using iron or aluminum filings? Basic cellulose reactions? In high school we
made thermite and the teacher made nitroglycerin. I guess all that is over
now? How can you move to University without this basic knowledge? (on a
principle / elemental level)

~~~
jff
I made nitrocellulose in high school chem in 2005; the teacher gave me the
instruction sheet and told me to go at it. The teacher also made thermite and
welded a cast iron pan to an iron plate. So, I don't know when or where you
went to school, but we did the same things you did (thermite and
nitroglycerin) only 5 years ago, and this in a little farm town of about 2,000
souls.

~~~
Vivtek
Little farm towns are the last bastion of sanity in this respect. I grew up in
the middle of nowhere, too; the prevailing philosophy there is, if anybody
else can do something, then I might as well try it.

~~~
sketerpot
Same here. I went to high school in a little farm town. There were no metal
detectors or mandatory ID badges, people openly carried pocket knives in case
they had to cut something, and some of the classes would leave you
unsupervised with power tools. The only problems with security came from damn
fool English teachers. One of them flipped out over a plastic butter knife,
and another misinterpreted an teenage gloom as a warning sign of impending
terrorism and called the police.

~~~
carpdiem
I, on the other hand, went to a public highschool in a well-to-do Los Angeles
suburb. The year before I graduated, a senior girl was expelled from school
two days before her graduation because she brought a swiss army knife on the
senior trip.

------
InclinedPlane
Thus concludes episode 282464 in how our public school systems have been
transformed into prisons/day-care centers for anyone under the age of 18
rather than institutions of education helping to mold the adults of tomorrow.

The end goal of the education system should be a self-sufficient, literate,
mature, responsible adult, yet there are precious few indications that today's
education system has anything even remotely close to that as a goal.

~~~
billswift
That was part of the apparent intent behind No Child Left Behind. Since some
people just aren't as capable as others, the only way to keep anyone from
getting "left behind" is to keep anyone from getting ahead. The "Harrison
Bergeron" Act is coming up.

------
Zak
What we need is for a few people in positions of public trust to have the
courage to say "yes, you can be too careful". A small risk of something Very
Bad is better than the death of a thousand cuts.

------
teeja
I was just reading yesterday that DARPA is having a hard time finding computer
geeks. This sort of wretching, chicken-little stupidity might be one reason
why.

If any of these 'adults' had been paying attention in 9th-grade science class,
they'd be able to tell what the kid's up to without calling in Sandia.

------
afterburner
Heaven forbid the teachers should open up one of their computers... they might
turn themselves in!

------
Vivtek
The cool thing is that if you look at their Website _now_ , there is no vice-
principal listed. Just somebody with a position of "N/A". I'm thinking that
person got a whole lot of email...

------
zargon
Okay. _Why_ then, do the education folks complain so much about how USA
students test lower in math an science than other countires? Clearly, math and
science are _dangerous_.

~~~
codyrobbins
Does behavior like that of the administrator in the story cause our math and
science scores to be lower, or do the lower math and science scores cause the
behavior of the administrator? It’s hard to tease apart the causality here. It
may very well be that the administrator wouldn’t have called the police if
American students tested higher in math and science. That is, our lower math
and science scores make us less knowledgeable in these areas and thus more
prone to fear when it comes to an ominous looking device with wires.

In all likelihood it’s probably both, with feedback going both ways.

------
RevRal
And I recently finished reading A Confederacy of Dunces. . . .

If you don't understand it, segregate it and isolate it ! What sort of sick
kick do people get out of cowering geniuses into corners? Here we are,
improving and saving the world for everybody, all day long.

I wish there was a way to let the kid know that he's a little bit of a hero.

------
noonespecial
Do what you're told while at work or school, nothing more. On your own time.
Watch tv. Make sure to only watch what we tell you. That will be all, thanks.

------
anamax
Remember - schools tell us that they teach judgement.

------
shib71
Does anyone know what the device actually did? How can this be Hacker News
without someone asking that?

~~~
roryokane
"Luque said the project was intended to be a type of motion-detector device."
That's all I see about it from the article. But yeah, I am curious why an
empty half-liter Gatorade bottle is needed for that. As a reflector of some
kind? To make it look cooler?

~~~
brettnak
More likely than not, the electronics inside were meant to detect the motion
of the water. I'd be willing to bet there was something floating in the water
that detected the motion of the water. Perhaps more of a vibration / proximity
detector than motion detector, but that's what 'half empty bottle of gatorade
and some electronics' says to me.

------
DougBTX
Also, this is the first time I've seen the same link at the top of HN _and_
Fark at the same time.

------
Mz
This gives new meaning to the saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't,
teach."

~~~
sailormoon
I've never liked that phrase, even though I recognise it's true most of the
time in the public school system. But the idea behind it, that teaching is a
last resort job for losers who can't do anything else, is very damaging to
society, IMO.

~~~
mdwrigh2
Also, the first thought that comes to my head (after all the bad teachers I've
had anyways... ) is that Feynman loved to teach. And I'm pretty sure he could
"do".

~~~
argv_empty
Those who can't do, can't teach either.

------
cridal
Idiot America in action. You get 'em boys...

~~~
sailormoon
Wish I could join you at laughing at the stupid yanks, but my own country is
headed down this path just as fast as it can, along with pretty much every
other liberal western democracy.

~~~
BigZaphod
The question is: Why is this happening?

~~~
varjag
Too much time passed since last major war. Generations of sissies are now in
charge.

