
Cities and Ambition (2008) - dluan
http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html
======
padobson
_You might think that if you had enough strength of mind to do great things,
you 'd be able to transcend your environment. Where you live should make at
most a couple percent difference._

This is exactly what I thought out of college. "I'm a product engineer! I can
work from anywhere. I'm going to move back to my hometown and turn the rust
belt economy around with a billion dollar startup!"

As it turns out, I didn't have the talent to start such a business by myself
(and based on my knowledge of startup history, no one does).

And that's why this essay nails it.

 _In a hundred subtle ways, the city sends you a message: you could do more;
you should try harder._

YOU may be a self motivated person, regardless of environment. But your
founder may not be. Your first ten employees may not be. Your investors and
vendors and strategic partners may not be.

When any of these stakeholders hang out with their friends in the rust belt,
they hear depressing stories. They start to look at success like it's
impossible, and they come back to work the next day less energized and less
motivated.

Or maybe they've got a good circle of friends, but not an _ambitious_ circle
of friends. They love their friends, so they stay out with them a little
later, sleep a little less, end up a little less productive the next day and
leave work earlier to go meet them. Same thing goes for a family, but with the
added responsibility.

This isn't to say that friends are bad or families will hold you back. In my
experience, good friendships and a loving, functional family are better than
any business success.

The point is that your environment _will_ affect your ambitions - even if you
never needed help feeling ambitious. At some point or another you'll need help
for _something_ , and if your city doesn't drive ambition in that direction,
you'll have to work that much harder to motivate the help you need.

~~~
dionidium
This also applies to the oft-cited Good Will Hunting line about getting a
great education for the price of some overdue books at the library.

Yep, definitely, sure, you're right: you _could_ definitely learn everything
you would in college on your own.

But you won't.

~~~
philipkglass
There _are_ autodidacts who can go a long way with a big library (or nowadays:
sci-hub, b-ok, MOOCs) and their own self-directed study. But if you haven't
started on that path before finishing high school, it seems extremely risky to
assume that you can start doing it instead of attending a university. Further,
if you're already self-motivated and learning on your own, you're probably
going to have a lot of (intellectual) fun attending one of the more rigorous
institutions, learn faster with access to proper labs for experimental
sciences, and fill in gaps that you might have tended to neglect with pure
self-study. The credential will also be a big help later whether you want to
go on deeper into research or find an "ordinary" full time job afterward.
(College degrees are still economically worth it _for those who complete the
degree_. If you can learn degree-material on your own you aren't going to be
one of those sad cases who takes on student loan debt without graduating.)

I hated school before I reached the university level. I maintained good grades
but I was usually bored and learned most interesting things on my own. A
university was the first place I found a majority of fellow students who were
straining forward to learn due to _interest in what they were learning_. It
makes the experience far different from being with people who are just being
goaded forward by a teacher or evaluating everything in light of "will this be
on the test?"

~~~
soperj
You must have gone to a University with better students than the one I went
to, because the majority of the people I went to University with just wanted a
piece of paper, and so "will this be on the test" was essential to their well-
being and learning was at best secondary.

~~~
philipkglass
I was a freshman in 1998 and received my BS 4 years later. Was your experience
more recent? I wonder if my experience was better due to the respective
schools we attended, the timeframe, or perhaps both. I get the impression that
credentialism is still worsening over time.

Intensified credentialism has the effect of diluting classrooms that _could_
be engaging with a bunch of people who are just XP-grinding to level up to a
job in 4 years. I do feel bad for people who are there due to distorted
economic incentives rather than genuine interest. I also resent them for
polluting the intellectual environment of students who are actually interested
in the material.

~~~
soperj
Not really. Freshman in 2001, though finally graduated in 2008 (took some time
off in the middle to work).

> I also resent them This was the absolute biggest problem I had in
> University.

------
vinceguidry
What an interesting essay. I've lived in Atlanta for 12 years and I can't
really figure out a message it's trying to send. One of the most up and coming
industries here is film, and I know people in that industry and have spent
time marinating in it, but it's not the siren call that riches is in NYC.

Atlanta seems to still be finding its identity. All the industries are
nascent, it always seems just on the cusp of a big transformation. I have a
theory about cities, that property values are largely constrained by geography
as the first and practically only factor, and Atlanta has no geographical
limitations that jack up prices. As a result, property has always been
comparatively cheap.

Atlanta seems to be a big sponge, not even close to hitting scaling limits. I
feel like you could almost pour the same amount of wealth that NYC has into
the area and it still won't look like even Chicago. It'll just sprawl outwards
into adjacent metro areas like Alpharetta or Decatur. Even the city centers
here, Downtown, Midtown, and increasingly Buckhead, feel like three distinct
cities rather than part of a whole.

As a result it simply won't ever come to have a more coherent identity and
message than it did in the nineties with rap and the music industry.

~~~
artimaeis
I had a professor some years ago who summed up Atlanta perfectly for me -
"[...] it's the biggest small town in America".

Having spent the past 15 years in the region I think he hit the nail on the
head. I believe the biggest message Atlanta is sending out is one of music -
musical arts are alive and kicking in Atlanta in ways that are very different
to the other big music cities. I'm really hopeful that the general creative
vibes continue to flourish there.

~~~
amyjess
> I had a professor some years ago who summed up Atlanta perfectly for me -
> "[...] it's the biggest small town in America".

My friends and I regularly make similar comments about Dallas. I very rarely
meet someone new without finding out that they are somehow connected to
somebody I know.

Sayings like "Dallas is the world's biggest small town" and "I know I
shouldn't be surprised, but how do the hell do _those two_ know each other?"
are common utterances among people I know. Also, for people I have a ton of
oddball connections with, "Dallas is the world's biggest small town, and it's
all [name]'s fault".

~~~
madcaptenor
The same "small town" thing happens in Philadelphia, where I used to live.
This might be a property of cities of roughly that size.

------
mikeyanderson
Seattle — "infrastructure" We build the infrastructure for the "start ups" in
SF to use the "money" from NYC. We began by selling mining equipment and
travel to the SF startups that ventured to the Alaska Gold Rush. We grew up
building the airplanes and ships for the expanding US military (Boeing &
Lockheed Shipbuilding). We built the supply chains that run the global economy
(Amazon, Costco, Expeditors Intl, UPS, Paccar) We built the software
infrastructure for the computer revolution (Microsoft). We built the
infrastructure for the cloud (AWS, Azure, GCP, F5, etc.) We built the
infrastructure for video games (Nintendo, Steam, Xbox) We're building the
infrastructure for AI/ML (All the major players are setting up their AI/ML
hubs in Seattle)

------
kevstev
I mostly agree, though the whole Cambridge bit was a bit overdone IMHO. NYC
seems to be slowly changing though, finance and money seem to be losing
prestige a bit in favor of tech. Ten years ago there was "a" NY Tech Meetup.
Now there are many dozens if not hundreds, it certainly feels you could attend
one every day. I feel I walk around and see a lot more people these days whom
I say to myself "they are definitely in tech" whereas 10 years ago or so that
would rarely happen.

I started spending some time in Chicago, and I guess I am still trying to
figure out what its trying to say- so far all I have is "a less intense NYC."

~~~
zombieprocesses
NYC always had a strong tech environment.

> finance and money seem to be losing prestige a bit in favor of tech.

Money will never lose its prestige in NYC. Tech is now where the money is
going so I guess the prestige will naturally increase.

> I feel I walk around and see a lot more people these days whom I say to
> myself "they are definitely in tech" whereas 10 years ago or so that would
> rarely happen.

What? I worked all throughout the 2000s in tech in NYC. We've always been
here.

The second largest tech industry in the world is in NYC after silicon valley.
And it's been that way for a long time.

~~~
kevstev
Did you work in tech, or at a bank, or some other firm where tech was
subservient to the business? I am not saying tech was never there- I worked in
the 2000s in NYC as well- but now go around the flatiron area, you see all
these people in jeans and a digital ocean (or whatever) t-shirt and glasses,
and they just scream "I just left my startup's office." It was harder to pick
them out when they were forced to wear a button down tucked into slacks.

It was definitely more prestigious to say you worked at GS vs Google 10 years
ago, I am not so sure that's the case anymore. Everyone's experience is
different I guess.

------
nickthemagicman
PG never fails to stimulate ideas.

I'm in New Orleans. Our cities form of status is totally who you know. Money
is not as big of adeal. A billionaire has less clout than the owner of a
operation that designs Mardi Gras floats or the bartender that is the lead of
the Krewe of Elvi.

I think that is what you would call "Soul" possibly.

After travelling to a bunch of other cities and seeing unfettered capitalism
destroy communities, neighborhoods, housing markets, livability, and peoples
lives..it's a pretty refreshing place to be.

On the flip side our economy is absolutely terrible.

~~~
christophclarke
It's exactly the "laissez les bon temps rouler" mentality in NOLA that keeps
it from becoming a booming tech incubator (for the reasons in the article),
but that's not necessarily a bad thing. There's nowhere else like the Crescent
city, and I hope it stays that way.

Although you're more likely to overhear discussions about last night's
debauchery than the next billion-dollar startup, you'll never be able to relax
in Cambridge, Mass. like you will in New Orleans. I think the idea that a
high-intensity environment is inherently better than a more laid-back one is
exactly what leads to the "work till you burn out" mentality in places like
SV.

~~~
selimthegrim
I live in NOLA. Universities cannot retain promising young faculty because
they don’t want to raise kids here (unless they were born here themselves)

------
erikb
This is really what I feel to some degree. The place you live at matters a
lot. But even with 32 I haven't found mine yet. I feel I'm much closer (not in
kilometers but in closeness to how I want to be as a person) but still some
way to go. And this is really tiring, because moving to another town, making
new friends, learning the local work network, learning the cultural nuances
that nobody seems to notice until you fail applying one, getting used to a new
apartment where the toilet seat is slightly higher and the shower water is
"just right" with another setting you don't know yet. It takes a lot from
one's life and happiness, and I slowly start to wonder at which point I might
reach "good enough" and just stick to it.

------
schimmy_changa
I find it odd that PG never uses the term _" status"_ in this post - that's
what he's talking about, _what gets you social status_ in each place.

However I love this post, and wrote up my own little analysis of a few cities
I'm familiar with: [http://colinschimmelfing.com/blog/the-different-social-
yards...](http://colinschimmelfing.com/blog/the-different-social-yardsticks-
of-american-cities/)

~~~
Caveman_Coder
I like your list, very funny!

I recently moved to Washington (eastern side) and out here it is more about
what you can do yourself...do you own a excavator? did you build your own
house? do you homestead? how much of your food do you produce yourself? can
you rebuild your truck/tractor? etc.

------
kennethlamar
You can call it 'ambition' all you want. It's really experience and wisdom
that leads to less fool-hardy 'ambition'. That's why I left NYC for smaller
cities and rural areas. The wisdom of having dealt with the money changers
looking to capitalize on gleamy eye'd fools having just landed in said city.
Play your stocks and equity games with the next generation and keep chiming on
about your perverse culture's 'ambition' requirements. I know a modern-day
usurer playing PR games when I see one.

This is all so clearly just thinly veiled, hopefully manipulative, status-
signaling.

For the incoming replies that inevitably address their imaginary audience
instead of engaging me in good faith: here's my offer to you, a sharpened
stick for you to sit on.

------
krausejj
This essay makes me incredibly sad. Many of our cities sending some of the
most interesting or inspiring messages are becoming off-limits to future
generations due to high housing costs.

[https://standupcalifornia.com](https://standupcalifornia.com)

------
soared
What message does your city send?

~~~
jostmey
I used to think the message in Dallas was "get rich". The city had almost no
flavor to it and seemed all about the money. Having leaved here for a few
years, I think the message is "work together". The economy is amazing and the
opportunities here seem to encourage cooperation

~~~
Cshelton
Also Dallas resident. I would agree that "work together" is a message here,
but would add to it, "work together, play together". Dallas is all about the
social life. Not in the way LA is with "A-list" or "who you know", but simply
just doing things with friends. All the time.

I'd also say the message to me is "work hard, play hard, and keep a work life
balance". People in Dallas get shit done, but they aren't going to work for
more than 40-50 hours/week. I'd say another 10-20 hours per week is spent on
hobbies, with friends or not, then the rest of ones' free time is social.
Whether it be family or friends or both. Perhaps that is why people usually
say "people are so nice here".

When people visiting ask me what I do on the weekends here in Dallas, my
response is, patio drinking with friends or traveling. Dallas, being centrally
located and having two major airports, is a great place to be able to take off
for the weekend for a fairly low price anywhere in the country. For as much as
I'd be paying for rent in NYC, I can pay for a mortgage and travel to a
different city almost every weekend. Although I usually average twice a month.
And the friends you spend time with while you are in Dallas are very open to
traveling with you as well.

I've now traveled to almost every major city in the U.S. in two years time,
some cities multiple times, and I think for somebody in their mid-20's to
mid-30's, this is a great place to be. During this time in ones career, you
can get industry experience in a field and then go start your start up or just
move up once you know a thing or two.

------
eldavido
Going through a period of personal reflection right now. Have read the OP
essay easily a dozen times over the last 5-6 years. Somehow I read it again
yesterday and by chance, here it is today, HN front page.

I'm a traditionally educated engineer (comp eng degree from big 10 midwestern
school) who was what I'd call medium ambitious. I knew I didn't want to end up
somewhere in some small backwater in suburban Chicago (where I'm from) doing
IT for a bank. I always wanted to make great products and sell them for money.

Silicon Valley has changed a lot in the 7 years I've lived here. It's crazy
how much venture capital is getting raised today. It seems like almost every
week, there's yet another record broken in VC. Instacart just raised 400
million dollars recently. And now Justin Kan's Atrium is doing $10 million _on
a story_ and it seems practically every day another self-driving car startup
is doing a nine-figure raise.

Looking back, pg is right. For as much as SV claims to be about
technology/innovation, it's really all driven by the fastest route to economic
power. The place has become noticeably more driven by business guys, "growth
hacking", virality, etc. than actual product innovation. Maybe it's for the
best, as a lot of innovation is actually in distribution (not just product).
But it does make me wonder, what's next for this place?

The big question I'm trying to figure out for myself is, do I want to play the
big-money startup game or be a small business owner? The distinction is
getting sharper each day. I never really wanted to be a billionaire but
realistically, "having a big effect on the world" is absolutely how things are
measured here, and if you aren't trying to dent the universe, you're basically
viewed as a zero here.

It's interesting what guys like tom preson-werner have done. He could probably
be a famous brand-name VC (has the resume and connections for it) but instead,
he's doing a second company in language learning. I really respect that he
wants to build good stuff, even if it doesn't mean raising a bazillion
dollars. I'm not surprised the company isn't HQ'd here.

EDIT: It's also interesting how just "doing something big" impresses SV, even
if you don't succeed. Examples: Slava (rethinkdb), Dalton Caldwell (several
failed startups, now partner at YC), Adora Cheung (also partner at YC after
Homejoy crashed and burned), etc. They seem to respect ambition perhaps even
more than building a solid business or company. It's really bizarre.

------
joelrunyon
This is one of my favorite essays from PG and one of my favorite topics of
conversation when it comes to friends.

Would love to crowdsource what each city "whispers" to people - to get more
info beyond just NYC/SF/LA

------
jdhopeunique
What message does Austin, Dallas, and Boulder send?

~~~
huntermonk
I grew up next to Dallas and just moved from Austin a few months ago. Both
cities value relaxation quite a bit.

Naturally, there are motivated people and pockets (that will probably comment
on this), but those are exceptions. That's what caused me to move.

------
purplezooey
_What matters in Silicon Valley is how much effect you have on the world._

This seems to be the life outlook of every Product Manager I know.

------
magicbuzz
What are the 'play music' cities in the world? There was some commentary about
Atlanta in the discussion.

~~~
selimthegrim
Chiming in with New Orleans

------
nQuo
What do you think Toronto's message is?

