

Lawsuit against "Discovery Math" in Seattle Schools - brfox
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2010/01/lawsuit-against-seattle-public-schools.html

======
anigbrowl
A pity that the article does not include any excerpts from the books or
detailed critiques of what's wrong with them.

Examining a _Discovering Algebra_ book at [http://www.amazon.com/Discovering-
Algebra-Investigative-Appr...](http://www.amazon.com/Discovering-Algebra-
Investigative-Approach-Mathematics/dp/1559533404) suggests that the book is
not so bad (though obviously this only allows previewing a few
pages)...however, I'm unsure whether this is even the same book, since the OP
doesn't mention the name of the publisher.

It's hard to judge whether the books themselves are poor or whether the
failure stems from teachers unwilling to adapt to a knowledge-building rather
than a purely didactic approach. Education is important and worth spending
money on but (as a European) I'm frequently horrified by American teachers,
whose union seems defensive even of members who exhibit basic deficiencies in
literacy or numeracy. It's still strange to me, for example, to consider that
there are teacher's editions of textbooks that include answer keys for scoring
homework - I ask myself what possible need a competent teacher could have for
such a thing, and why school districts are wasting money on buying them.

I'm _strongly_ against dumbing down school curricula; on the other hand, I
think discovery of knowledge by experiment imprints knowledge far better than
mere receptive learning (cf. recent HN posts about college physics students
who learn the material well but are hopelessly incapable of applying it to a
novel context). So I'm inclined to favor the _approach_ of these textbooks
(without endorsing their actual content). This article
[http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/the_constan...](http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/the_constant_math_problem_how.html)
suggests that at least some of the problem stems from parental or school
unfamiliarity with the methods, such as complaints about an 'overemphasis
on...problem solving'.

Hmmm. I think we need to take a closer look before jumping onto the 'blame the
book' bandwagon. The books discussed may well be inadequate, but it's hard to
judge that without a more reasoned critique. If anything, this lends further
support to opinion of many HN readers that we should be moving towards open-
source textbooks instead of the current cosy arrangement between school
districts and publishers.

~~~
tylerritchie
It's the books and the curriculum. Just watch
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI> and cry.

~~~
flatline
It's funny, I do those "cluster problems" in my head to solve most
multiplication and division problems...I presume that I invented the method
myself at some point during basic education, as these books are encouraging
kids to do. The standard algorithms are great on paper but suck to do in your
head for anything very complex (at least for me...)

I can see the point though about disadvantaged kids having trouble with this.
If someone is struggling and does not have good parental support, it would be
hard to learn basic math skills reliably this way. Rote memorization of
methods and figures is useful at pretty much all levels of math, and if you
just want kids to be able to multiply two numbers, drilling them on one method
makes a lot more sense than trying to create young mathematicians.

~~~
tylerritchie
I think every mere mortal uses a variation on the "cluster problems" to do
mental multiplication and division.

But what about the lattice method, how is that better than the standard
algorithm for humans doing math on paper?

~~~
flatline
Yeah the lattice method was pretty cool, I don't recall seeing that before. I
can't see any value teaching this to a 3rd grader unless they're absolutely
sailing along in math and curious to learn more. Even then, I'm not really
sure of the point, how does it reveal anything about multiplication?

------
Afton
I am made uneasy about someone that contrasts 'low income' and 'white' in
their graphs.

I do however, still holding a low opinion of the discovery math pedagogical
model in general, as it requires more math sophistication than is likely to be
found in an elementary/middle/high school's teacher.

~~~
jff
I was disturbed by the "low income" vs. "white" separation. Does the white
group also include low income white students? Or, to further their point, did
they decide low income whites aren't _really_ white?

Nobody should have to "rediscover" the Pythagorean Theorem. I'll go out on a
limb and say Newton, Leibniz, Einstein, Descartes, etc. just went ahead and
read Euclid, and they did pretty well for themselves.

~~~
lutorm
Learning to prove mathematical theorems is an important skill in mathematics.
If you only learn to use what comes served on a silver platter, where will you
learn to handle situations where you haven't had the theorem taught to you in
advance? My impression of UC undergraduate students is that "find the correct
formula and plug in the numbers" is the only type of math they know how to do,
and encouraging that doesn't seem like a way forward.

~~~
jff
It is important to know how to prove theorems. However, I don't think the
correct way to do it is to say "Here's some vague hints, now try to guess what
we're talking about by playing with these blocks". The way I was taught, which
I found pretty effective, was that we'd be given an theorem, then in some
cases (not all, or we'd never get anywhere) prove that statement. When you
hand over the theorem and then make the student prove it, he applies and
synthesizes previous theorems to explain the new one.

------
Groxx
I find it telling that the article breaks down scores by race, not by income.
Note that it claims that the difficulties are for _low income families who
cannot afford tutors / other resources_ , not _black children_. What's the
crossover? What's the pass ratio for _poor_ white children?

Granted, a book can easily be harder to read / understand for less-
classically-trained children. I'm not saying it's not possible, just that the
article is definitely seeing what it was looking for.

~~~
abscondment
The first table cites the pass ratios for all low-income students at 37.3%,
28.3%, and 26.4% for 4th, 7th, and 10th grade respectively -- the pass rates
for black children are lower than that. So one can accurately infer that non-
black low-income children perform better.

Granted, this isn't as informative as breaking things down by both race and
income. But, as far as I can tell, this is a limitation of the state's
reporting data and not a selective argument made by the blog.

See <http://reportcard.ospi.k12.wa.us>

~~~
Groxx
Maybe I'm just missing something, but I see no data there about pass ratios
for _any_ subject, much less a breakdown by race / income.

~~~
abscondment
You have to look at the WASL specifically and filter on other criteria from
there. For example, a bar chart of 10th grade scores comparing low/non-low
incomes:

[http://reportcard.ospi.k12.wa.us/waslTrend.aspx?year=&gr...](http://reportcard.ospi.k12.wa.us/waslTrend.aspx?year=&gradeLevelId=10&waslCategory=-5&chartType=2)

~~~
Groxx
Aaah, now I see. Thanks!

------
tokenadult
It's interesting to use an ethnic achievement gap as a legal basis for
opposing a particular math program. That most United States school districts
don't simply use Singapore Math

<http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Math_s/21.htm>

shows that most math curriculum adoptions are not made on the basis of best
results for least expense.

~~~
evgen
This is probably because the program you repeatedly suggest as the solution to
all of the math education woes in the US has a distinct lack of statistically
valid studies to back up the claims being made. It is popular among the
homeschooling crowd but that does not mean it is effective or applicable at a
larger scale (e.g. the LA unified school district alone has three times as
many students as Singapore but only twice the budget, etc.)

~~~
tokenadult
_LA unified school district alone has three times as many students as
Singapore but only twice the budget_

That's an interesting factual claim, which depends crucially on currency
conversions between the United States dollar and the Singapore dollar. Do you
have a link to a source for the factual statement, preferably one that "shows
the work" (as a math teacher would say) by giving the school-age population
numbers for each place and the all-sources primary education budgets for each
place?

------
houseabsolute
OK, so it worsens the achievement gap, but what about absolute achievement.
I'm fine if the poor are even worse off than the rich if they are 5% better
off absolutely (i.e. the rich are 10% better off).

------
dobbse
A Mathematician’s Lament by Paul Lockhart:
<http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf>

Persuaded me that the way I learned math is pathologically soul crushing; the
way it's taught from kindergarden through university. The first two pages set
up a nice metaphor: mathematics is argument and creativity and our traditional
math education by memorization and rote repetition are akin to teaching music
by reading and writing sheet music without first hearing or playing an
instrument.

"No society would ever reduce such a beautiful and meaningful art form to
something so mindless and trivial; no culture could be so cruel to its
children as to deprive them of such a natural, satisfying means of human
expression."

The rest of the article digs into some specific examples.

Mathematics instruction needs an overhaul and back-to-basics isn't The Right
Thing.

------
tsally
If you want an example of math education that does a lot right, take a look at
what's been done in Chicago [1,2]. Unfortunately, substandard K-12 curriculum
is all too common. I don't even want to think about the billions of dollars
society would save by implementing effective programs across the board. Makes
me sad. :-/

[1] <http://ucsmp.uchicago.edu/>

[2] <http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/>

------
danteembermage
As a university level instructor, I find so many things high school teachers
have to put up with appalling. I choose my text book for one. My lesson plans
are not approved by anyone except me (yes, in fact my sister-in-law had to use
recycled old lesson plans because they were "AP approved") The decision rights
should be located as close to the in-the-trenches information unless the
coordination benefits outweigh the costs. I doubt the benefits come anywhere
close here.

------
cabalamat
I'm sure some methods of teaching maths are better than others. But is a
lawsuit really the best way to settle the issue?

------
Scott_MacGregor
Why not offer both types of instruction and let the teachers recommend which
students should learn by which method. It seems like having an option would
make it more likely more students would do better. Why limit the students to
only one option.

------
motters
The categorisation of children's test scores into different racial types I
think says a lot about how far America has yet to go in dealing with issues of
segregation and unequal opportunities - despite Obama's election as president.

~~~
curtis
We've been doing this categorization for a long time, and if we don't do it,
we can't tell if we're really addressing the problem.

------
iterationx
From the article >>In this approach math is substantially dumbed down for
"equity" reasons and students are asked to discover age-old principles on
their own.

Charlotte Iserbyt, former Senior Policy Advisor in the Office of Educational
Research and Improvement (OERI), U.S. Department of Education, wrote the free
eBook (pdf) "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America"
<http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/>

~~~
lutorm
"Dumbing down" and "discovering age-old principles on their own" are not
necessarily the same. There is definitely value in learning to do creative
work in math and science, beyond just rote memorization and learning to
regurgitate what the teacher tells you. It pretty clear that many people with
high grades in school are poorly prepared for situations where you actually
have to do original work, like grad school. Of course, there has to be a
balance between base skills and that.

Also, for another take on math education, see
<http://www.maa.org/devlin/devlin_03_08.html>

~~~
bitwize
The problem with rote memorization is that it gets results. You cannot do
algebra until you know your times tables by heart, and how did kids learn
their times tables in ages past, when men were men and went to the moon
without the aid of calculators? Drill, drill, drill.

Going on and on about the beauty of math is all well and good if your brain is
wired that way, but when 90% of America's high school grads are stymied by
making simple change, you fall back on what works.

~~~
lutorm
The point is that if _all_ you do is drill, by the time you get to the beauty,
your students have already made up their mind that math is the most useless
crap in the Universe. Motivation is a powerful force and unless people see
that there's any point to what they are being ordered to do, they will comply
with the smallest amount of effort they can get away with.

And to say that they want to fall back on "what works" sounds a little funny
given how dismally American students in general are doing. If people are so
afraid to make the mediocre worse, they'll never discover what works better.

Besides, I'm not even sure I agree that you need to be able to multiply
numbers before doing algebra.

~~~
bitwize
Saxon Math is getting kids numerate to a high school level where
constructivist horseshit is not.

Saxon Math is largely drill and repetition based, with some practical
applications like counting money and so forth.

Therefore, you're wrong. QED.

As for what American students in general are doing, drill and repetition were
how it was taught in the mid 20th century, when America led the world in
science and technology. (My father was given a pencil with no eraser in the
second grade; the teacher told the class "You're second graders now. You
shouldn't be making mistakes.") We abandoned that sometime in the sixties and
it's been downhill since.

------
olegk
Welfare. These low-income and minority kids know they won't starve to death,
they think that learning is "acting white". Here's the result.

Oh well, better for the rest of us.

~~~
anigbrowl
I dispute this assertion. When I was growing up, Ireland was ethnically
homogenous with poor economic security and hostility to welfare cases like
those of single mothers (for religious reasons), but there was still a
distribution of ability and academic application. there were poor kids that
studied hard and rich kids that didn't give a fuck, though more of the former
than the latter, since high schools there employ streaming. You need more
evidence for this assertion that the existence of welfare automatically
results in poor academic outcomes.

I suggest that the disparity of result may have always existed, but in the
past there were fewer women in the workforce and more jobs in manual labor
such as manufacturing etc., so that a lack of academic achievement didn't
necessarily result in economic insecurity.

~~~
olegk
Ireland is very white. So there's no "acting white" problem.

~~~
anigbrowl
Yes - and yet there is _still_ a range of educational outcomes, from excellent
to abysmal. The country has a more generous welfare regime than when I was
growing up, but AFAIK this hasn't substantially altered the educational
landscape.

So your argument that poor educational outcomes can be attributed to inverted
racism doesn't stand up. It may well be a factor, but you appear to be arguing
that poor non-white kids with a bad attitude are primarily responsible for
dragging down overall results, and I don't agree.

