
How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition - extraterra
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/japanese-curry-history
======
miyhhbftdx
> The word “curry” originated in India, although it did not have a long
> history there. Instead, it derived from a Portuguese mispronunciation of a
> term meaning “spices,” which British colonizers applied to a wide swath of
> Indian dishes.

Such misinformation that I can't even...

 _Kari_ is a Tamil word. I am Tamil. It has been in the vocabulary for
thousands of years. Just made some elephant yam kari for lunch. It is always
dry. Zero gravy. Something with gravy is _kootu_.

(Japanese kare is something completely different. It is by definition a thick
gravy. It might trace its origins to india. But it is a separate dish now.)

~~~
lgessler
FWIW online etymologies seem to suggest this description isn't totally off,
but I agree the bit about it not having a history is transparently wrong.

Etymonline[1]:

> kind of sauce or relish much used in Indian cookery, from the leaves of a
> southwest Asian plant related to the lemon, 1680s, from Tamil (Dravidian)
> kari "sauce, relish for rice," also "a bite, bit, morsel." As "meat or
> vegetable stew flavored with curry powder," 1747 in British English.

This one implies that கறி can refer to the spice in a dish as well as the dish
as a whole--seems likely. That is, for instance, how "masala"[2] works in
Hindi, which literally means 'spices' but can help form the name of an entire
dish, as in "paneer masala".

Wiktionary[3]:

> 1747 (as currey, first published recipe for the dish in English[1][2]), from
> Tamil கறி (kaṟi), influenced by existing Middle English cury (“cooking”),[2]
> from French cuire (“to cook”) (from which also cuisine), from Vulgar Latin
> cocere, from Latin coquere, present active infinitive of coquō.

> Earlier cury found in 1390 cookbook Forme of Cury (Forms of Cooking) by
> court chefs of Richard II of England.

To be clear: what happened here is that English already had a word "curry"
(this is the one we get in the expression "curry favor"), and it encountered
and incorporated the Tamil word which coincidentally had an identical
pronunciation and a very related meaning.

[1]:
[https://www.etymonline.com/word/curry#etymonline_v_491](https://www.etymonline.com/word/curry#etymonline_v_491)

[2]:
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%E...](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BE)

[3]:
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/curry#Etymology_1](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/curry#Etymology_1)

~~~
flukus
> To be clear: what happened here is that English already had a word "curry"
> (this is the one we get in the expression "curry favor"), and it encountered
> and incorporated the Tamil word which coincidentally had an identical
> pronunciation and a very related meaning.

It would be a good candidate to look into the origins of further, perhaps
there is a proto-indio-european link and it's not a coincidence.

~~~
Arnt
Tamil is dravidian, not indoeuropean.

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themodelplumber
Nice article. I remember first reading about kinyou curry in the manga series
"Zipang" by Kaiji Kawaguchi, in which a modern Japanese Aegis destroyer gets
time-warped back to WWII on the first day of the Battle of Midway.

Semi-related: We hear a lot about about Japanese curry when it comes to soupy
things. But we never hear about Japanese stew (shichuu). Sometimes when I was
getting sick of curry--hard to imagine now--a plate of rich creamy (white)
beef stew with some rice in the middle of winter was just the thing. The roux
blocks for stew were right next to the curry roux blocks in the store. It had
a unique taste that I haven't experienced since moving back to the states.
Example picture:

[http://darjapan.blogspot.com/2012/10/hokkaido-cream-
stew.htm...](http://darjapan.blogspot.com/2012/10/hokkaido-cream-
stew.html?m=1)

~~~
jac_no_k
If you manage to find a Japanese grocer, it's a staple item. In a pinch, order
through Amazon:

House Foods Cream Stew, 4.93 Ounce (Pack of 10) by House Foods Link:
[http://a.co/d/hXsgx21](http://a.co/d/hXsgx21)

~~~
themodelplumber
Awesome, thank you!

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cfjgvjh
There is a page on the Ministry of Defense website listing curry recipes for
various ships/subs/etc. in the JMSDF.

[http://www.mod.go.jp/msdf/formal/family/recipe/archive/curre...](http://www.mod.go.jp/msdf/formal/family/recipe/archive/currey.html)

~~~
malloryerik
I do wish they'd change the Japanese naval flag -- in much of East Asia the
Rising Sun Flag is seen as a symbol of oppression and Japanese imperialism,
almost as potent as a Nazi swastika. It doesn't do Japan any good to fly the
old imperial flag from every Maritime Self Defense Force vessel, even if it
was the naval flag since 1889 (by which time Japan already had imperial
designs).

~~~
rangibaby
If the Japanese had to change their military symbols for that reason, every
country in the world would. Even Germany still uses the iron cross as the
symbol of their air force.

~~~
malloryerik
I don't see why every country would have to change their symbol. Yes, all
countries have guilt in their pasts, as do all people, but Imperial Japan was
a fascist regime that killed 50 million often with horrific brutality. And
let's remember, it's just a war flag, you can change it with the stroke of a
pen. The flag won't care. The Self Defense Forces won't start to suck, and the
neighbors will have one less reason to think of Japan as an enemy, a real
boost to national defense. You might not understand the depth of animus in the
region against Japan -- schoolchildren are taught to despise it because of the
fascist empire, and the Rising Sun Flag is shown as an analog to the Nazi
swastika. Completely unlike Germans, Japanese are portrayed as at best
ignorant of the dark side of their own nation's history, and flying a flag
that on sight causes more than a billion people to swell with rage because
they connect it to Japan's fascist past does nothing to dispel that notion.
Fret not, the neighbors also choose to forget the dark sides of their pasts.
Yet they must all live together, in an environment that feels like it mixes
21st century technology with late 19th century nationalism.

I _love_ Japan. I've been visiting five or six times a year for quite a while.
I flew in naval exercises alongside the Maritime Self Defense Forces. I enjoy
Japanese curry. You should really try curry soup in Sapporo, it's fantastic. I
could happily live in Japan for the rest of my days. I'd still be happy if
they changed the damn counter-productive war flag.

~~~
nindalf
I feel like the people who would be upset about the flag would also be the
same people who wouldn’t be satisfied by merely a flag change. They’d say “so
what if you just changed your flag? Now change the history curriculum in high
school”. And they wouldn’t stop there either, they’d ask for further changes
because it’s never enough. “ Why haven’t you demolished the Yasukuni shrine
yet?”

I’m _not_ saying that a country that committed crimes in the past shouldn’t
have to atone for that by making changes. Germany did this much better than
Japan. All I’m saying is that there will be people in the country who will
oppose kowtowing to requests like the one you’ve made because they think it’s
impossible to satisfy people who make such requests.

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delbel
I eat pre-mixed Thai curry paste from this brand called "Mae Ploy" with
coconut oil, powdered coconut milk, meat (either chicken or beef) and
vegetables. There's about five different flavors and for $8 you get a 2 pound
bucket of it I have never actually been able to finish one in less than a
year.

Turns out I can eat an amazing very low carb meal for about $2 a day and 2-3
minutes of meal prep. It's currently my "meal for life".

If there is a Japanese pre-mixed curry for sale, let me know!

~~~
jgorn
That sounds delicious, I love how much flavour is packed in Thai curry paste.
But how can you make a fully cooked curry in 2-3 minutes?

~~~
temp0876456
Thai curry is cooked quickly, usually in a wok. Japanese curry, in contrast,
is usually simmered for a long time. The latter is to thicken and soften the
meat and vegetables. Thai curry’s consistency is managed by using more or less
coconut milk vs the actual paste. And the meat and vegetable pieces are cut
much smaller so they cook almost instantly.

~~~
C1sc0cat
Depends on the recipe a traditional Rogan Josh should be marinated for 24-48
Hours.

I also tend to do tika in a wok if I am doing a curry then simmer the cocked
chicken in the wok to finish it off.

~~~
temp0876456
We were discussing Thai curry. There are some dishes cooked in Thailand that
are marinated or slow cooked, but curries aren’t. Southern curries are cooked
a _little_ longer. But it’s common to get e.g., massaman curry in Thailand
with undercooked potatoes.

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telesilla
Ah now I am dropped back 20 years in my past when I first had a curry udon,
delicious and piping hot with gigantic pieces of melting tofu and soft boiled
potato. I went back often to this cosy locale buried in the chinatown of a
busy southern-hemisphere city. One day, it had disappeared and I still feel
its loss. Though I try to reproduce this at home, and I try japanese curry
whenever I come across one, I'll never again know those first flavours that
brought me such happiness. It must have been a homemade curry because every
store brand I've tried doesn't match my expectations. I'll keep trying..

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dirktheman
The Royal Dutch Navy has a similar tradition: every Wednesday they serve
'blauwe hap' (blue bite, originating from the blue uniforms they used to
wear): a dutch adaptation of the Indonesian dish nasi goreng.

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sandGorgon
I think curry is a adopted food in most cold countries and a native dish in
hot, humid countries.

A thick stew with tons of spices and salt is basically a food preservation
mechanism - especially for vegetables and meat which would spoil quickly.

Similarly, the origin of baked bread - cold countries had a stove for heating
the home. someone figured out how to use it as an oven. Most hot countries use
fried bread or roasted unleaved bread (roti). Because it is insane to stand
over a stove for too long in such temperatures.

~~~
adrianN
Preparing food in an oven or the very similar cooking pit has been popular in
civilizations around the world. The difference to cold climates is that you
keep the oven outside the building.

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Isamu
Just want to chime in to say Japanese curry is awesome! Nothing against Indian
or Thai curry, I love those different varieties too.

But just that Japanese curry is its own thing, it is very different and you
might like it even if you shy away from other kinds.

Anybody here a fan of Japanese curry?

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jorblumesea
Japanese curry is something different and special. There's something really
savory and umami about it. CoCo Ichi is the jam, basically the Japanese waffle
house.

~~~
GolDDranks
I love CoCo Ichi, I visit there once a week, basically.

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uranusjr
In case someone is wondering why this only discusses curry being a naval
tradition, although both the Army and Navy had the same beriberi problem—the
Army solved it the same way as the Navy. Curry is as much a staple meal in the
Army as Navy, just not celebrated as a culture as much.

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Markoff
what i took from article for my next cooking: _" powder, butter, meat
(typically beef), root vegetables, and a sauce thickened with flour."_

sounds simple enough to try

~~~
dwd
Super easy.

I would have said chicken rather than beef which is hugely popular in Brisbane
at lunch time.

I've done this one a few times: double up on the sauce ingredients so you have
plenty of gravy. Also simmer for as long as you can so the carrots and onion
pretty well dissolve and you get a thicker sauce. You can also add Mirin and
cut back on the honey.

[http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/29578/chicken-katsu-
curry.asp...](http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/29578/chicken-katsu-curry.aspx)

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etymacct123
not just curry but soup is also indian! of course completely denied by the
west so far

soup is from sanskrit supa attested in arthashastra of kautilya dated to 1st
millennium BC by westerners and 2nd millennium BC by indians

see link for specific quote from the text:
[http://www.alexmthomas.com/2016/05/22/a-review-of-
trautmanns...](http://www.alexmthomas.com/2016/05/22/a-review-of-trautmanns-
arthashastra/)

~~~
m_mueller
You're aware that both European languages and Sanskrit have a common ancestor,
Proto-Indo-European? That's how you find identical wordstems like "Pa" for
father in both (if I remember the example correctly). Something as basic as
soup would be easy to imagine going back to PIE no?

~~~
etymacct123
of course but PIE is an imagined language with an imaginary date of 2500 BC

lack of any attestation kills all PIE claims

whereas sanskrit is a solidly real language with a lot of evidence that it
dates back to 4th millennium BC or even much further back for the rg veda

evidence that is vociferously ignored or censored in the west for various
reasons

so the tactic of making sanskrit a daughter language of PIE is not accepted

~~~
m_mueller
So if you don’t accept PIE, what‘s the model you accept? Did Indian and
European peoples migrate out of Africa separately according to your model?
Using languages to analyze this is indeed a crude tool, but we have something
better now: DNA evidence. And so far I at least never heard of DNA being used
to disproof the Indo-European relationship, as opposed to some other
hypothetical proto-people like Finno-Ugric-Mongolian-Korean-Japanese,
whathever the name for that was.

You seem to be a bit emotionally attached to this? I for one like imagining
that such a vast and diverse bunch of peoples may go back to just a couple of
families crossing deserts, jungles and plains together.

~~~
etymacct123
there is no dna that encodes for language

how europeans got their language is not our problem

neither the yamnaya r1b z2103 nor sintashta r1a z2125 amounted to much in
world history and the sintashtans were just scythians or what we called shakas

these geneticists are just looking for keys under the streetlight ignoring
actual evidence

rest of the dna debate is massively hyped propaganda and search for relevance
and funding

