

Diary of a Failed Startup: Aftermath - nostrademons
http://diffle-history.blogspot.com/2008/12/aftermath.html

======
vlad
Regarding getting any type of programming job after doing it yourself for a
time, it's not very difficult to do.

I didn't have any difficulty getting a job at a billion dollar company after
doing my shareware business for three years or so, after my father was laid
off (I lived with my parents, being in early 20's).

Basically, after Startup School 2007, I was thinking of joining a YC startup I
really liked (Auctomatic) and they seemed to think I was the #1 candidate.

Being rejected from YCombinator regarding growing my app, and looking at that
YC startup I mentioned, I made my eBay-related program free to use instead of
paid (because I was thinking I would join that YC startup, or if not, I would
look at some more in California), to eliminate any guilt of not supporting it
as much as I could while I would be moving on to something else. I also wanted
to focus on web based instead of desktop software.

Then, my father got laid off around the same time, and while I was helping my
father find a job, I realized that he wasn't getting any responses. So besides
creating his resume, as I went through job search sites submitting his, I
thought, I might as well submit my own to a couple of companies directly as
well, having just shut off my income by making my software free, and now
feeling like I should stay in the area while my dad got back up on his feet. I
had no problem getting interviews after only applying to a couple of big local
companies. My dad finally got one, and I went with him, and they did not want
him and instead wanted me. The guy asked me to come back and meet with his two
bosses, and I did, though I cut that meeting short to go another interview. I
was called and asked to come back again on a third interview, and to continue
that interview, as well as possibly meet some executive from New York (their
headquarters). (LOL) So my dad got only one other interview in those two
months, which I didn't go with him to. :)

The Fortune 100 company that gave me an offer first, I accepted, and declined
to meet with that other company. One of the few places I applied was Google,
and a Google recruiter called after I had already accepted another offer and
said that Google wouldn't fly me in to California after my phone interview
with a Google developer, and he thought my credentials were great and that I
should try again in March 2008. Basically, I planned on reviewing the TopCoder
pages on algorithms and such before the call, but my grandparents "went
missing" and my dad and I went looking for them when their alarm went off, so
by the time I got home, I was exhausted. Then my parents were in the same room
as I, so it was tough to struggle through the phone interview with Google.
Worse yet, I was just getting so tired from the interview that in the end,
when I likely correctly answered that an algorithm took big O of "n log n"
time, the interviewer sounded really excited and surprised and asked me how I
got it. I said I don't know, and he kept asking me. I said, I just knew that's
one of the common possibilities, and that the algorithm grows faster (is
slower) than linear time but grows slower (is a faster algorithm) than
exponential time.

I started (at the company I accepted the offer) directly in a real position,
while other people I know (and my age) had just gotten their B.S. in Computer
Science or Business degrees and then had "Trainee" job titles for about 8
months, even though I was the same age as them (different department) and had
about an Associate's Degree at the time.

I quickly found that people do not think the same way as startup founders. The
company was very conservative, and also I was the youngest by far of anyone
else in my department.

My favorite part of that experience was trying to bring up awareness of the
iPhone. I remember, at the urging of the guy who hired me, showing off my
iPhone last December to an executive who was walking by, who seemed
interested. I worked with the guy who hired me to explain to him and others
the difference between web-based and native apps, as well as WAP, and
different ways this could be implemented. As well as why the iPhone was a
better platform than anything else. Also, getting our IT department to
register for the iPhone Enterprise Beta as soon as it came out. And, talking
about having API's and and one place to render, so that the same content would
simply be displayed differently, depending on the capability of the device--
regular phone, iPhone, laptop, 24" monitor. There seemed to a lot of backlash
at the time, but then I noticed some of my ideas had become some other
person's ideas, such as that of the guy who hired me. I created mockups of
what an app might look like on the iPhone.

This company's policy was to buy before build, instead of develop in-house
(which made sense) so they got a mobile development shop to build some ideas,
with the two guys--the guy who hired me, and the guy in IT I told to sign up
for the iPhone Enterprise Beta--running the show, and I was not involved in
any way.

My favorite moment was washing my hands in the first floor bathroom late one
day, around August, when a person started talking to me. Oh, it's the CIO! He
let me know they're going to be pursuing some iPhone and Blackberry apps, and
using it and such. I realized therefore that it was the same guy who saw me
show him my iPhone in December, and that he must have remembered me, and I
asked him of that. He says, yup! And I reply, ( this is still very funny to me
), "oh I heard that you were meeting with this person, and that person, and
this person." He looked at me with a blank stare. I asked, "Did you like those
mockups in the presentation?" He said, yes! I said, "I made those." Another
blank stare. It was just funny because the executive was trying to surprise me
about remembering me from a year ago, and I surprised him by basically telling
him I made those mockups he saw as well as knowing everything about his
meeting.

Of course even though I bought the iPhone and Macbook Pro with my own money
and explained things to my manager and stuff, created mock ups, and
presentations, I didn't get any credit whatsoever. Another thing, when I was
talking with executives (for some reason, I was originally sitting not with
coworkers, but near an executive who was in charge of other executives, one of
whom was the second most important in terms of strategy to the CIO), and I
ALWAYS brought up the iPhone project and ALWAYS mentioned the guy-who-hired-
me's name. Apparently, the guy-who-hired-me only sometimes mentioned me. And
when I told the guy-who-hired-me that I had run-ins with executives, he
instantly asked, "oh did you mention me? did you mention me?" I thought to
myself, doesn't he want to hear my cool story? Why is this more important to
him? I said, uh yeah, I always do. Lesson learned--next time, I will only
mention people who actually do anything useful. I already had a path to
executives, I did not need someone else stealing my ideas. Oh, and the project
to get iPhone/mobile awareness started out as both of us working together, of
course with him having zero knowledge about anything, but as soon as it go
interest, the person asked me multiple times, in the presence of another
executive (yes, there are too many executives), that he should probably do
it... I said.. uh.. what... my current manager has full support of me using
part of time on stuff related to the iPhone... why do you ask? However, this
happened a couple of times, and always within earshot of an executive, like
this wasn't a 50-50 effort.

So in September, I left to get my Bachelor's in Computer Science and
Mathematics while learning iPhone development (I signed up for a related class
that was originally an independent study meant for development for another
platform, but eventually everyone switched to iPhone development by November!)
I also took a class on Adobe CS3, as well, of course, three real CS and Math
classes.

I think corporate was fun, but regardless, I did not want to stay because they
were not going to develop my ideas, but contract them out to a vendor. I
couldn't care less about credit; it was that day to day, I wasn't working on
cool stuff. As far as ACTUAL WORK I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING, that actually
started getting fun and productive when my department finally moved everyone
together instead of all over the place, a few weeks before I was quitting.
However, I wanted to get my degree and have time to work on my ideas.

Since I remember you posting here as long as I have, and I remember you going
through what you did, I just wanted to congratulate you and tell you what I've
experienced as well.

Also, I've found that some negative things people have posted here about
certain YC startup's hiring practices/treatment of other people are true,
though I think I've only officially applied to a couple over the years. I
really have to give the hats off to Auctomatic though for asking me to create
something in smalltalk for them, regardless of my degree, and these people had
gone to Cambridge and/or had deferred accepting attending MIT.

------
eterno
This is an amazing writeup. Incredibly honest.

It would be great if you could do an as honest writeup after some
time(possible a couple of months). I would be interested in thoughts along two
lines:

1\. Maybe working Google will not be that great. They sure do have very smart
ppl - but I guess you know by now that startups are a different beast. There
was a reason you went into the startup world - maybe because you found more
meaning in the complete responsibility a startup endows you, and probably that
wont exist in Google - nor the adrenaline. Maybe you need to balance that
'meaning' in your job with having fun - your starup was all about meaning and
probably too hard to be fun so a stint at Google looks exciting. Maybe you
will crave meaning very soon, in which case Google might not be the best
option.

2\. "And I have no cofounder, so I'd be doing everything myself until I could
afford employees, and then I'd have to build a company culture. That will be
no 'fun'" Maybe you can still find a cofounder(maybe in Google). I am not
sure, but I think there should be a way to do startups while keeping the fun
intact. One thing that I have seen is that big companies afford you a
default(big) social circle which a lot of times is the source of the fun you
have. (Also startups typicall dont have cute HR's ;)). But maybe you can still
create a big enough social group by just hanging out with other startup folks
and have as much fun.

Just some random thoughts. Feel free to (not) reply.

~~~
nostrademons
1.) It's possible, though if that happens, I probably wouldn't write about it
because I don't want to bad-mouth my employer. I also got the impression that
there's a lot of cool, meaningful stuff going on in the Googleplex, but we
just don't see most of it because products typically take a few years to
mature. Think of all the stealth-mode startups that are out there building
things you've never heard of, then imagine that going on inside one
organization.

2.) Similarly, one of my reasons for choosing Google was indeed to meet
potential new cofounders, but I wouldn't recruit them directly away from work
(I don't think I legally can - I'm guessing that Google will have a no-solicit
agreement like every other tech place I've worked at). It's more to get to
know them as friends, so that if 5-10 years down the line, we're both getting
really bored with everything going on at the Googleplex, there's a big pool of
people that I'd like to work with.

~~~
ivankirigin
People leaving at the same time to start a company isn't solicitation

------
luckystrike

      But if I were to do another startup, I'd be stuck with it for the next 4-10 years, 
      it'd have to be profitable within about 2 to avoid running out of money, 
    

<SNIP>

    
    
      I might be able to pull it off and get rich, 
      but it'd eat up all of my twenties, probably all my friends, 
      and possibly all my sanity. Not worth it.
    

This is one of the things that i ponder upon as well.

A lot of people would say (and correctly so) it becomes more difficult later
on to start your own venture, but at this point (I'm 27) i just can't convince
myself to work like crazy for the next 2-3 years and possibly spend the prime
of my life in front of the screen.

I guess it's just a question what you want from life at that point in time.
(Great work/money/time for other interests/good social life). Obviously all of
it together would be nice :-), but till then got to be selective.

~~~
donw
I'm also twenty-seven, and there's nothing I'd rather do than have a go with
getting my own business running. And the thing is, that doesn't mean spending
all of your life in front of a monitor. Spending time out in the real world,
talking with other people, is a vital activity for anybody starting a company.

It's also a great way to make friends with similar interests, which leads
itself to all kinds of fun.

Too many people spend a frankly stupid amount of time worrying about wasting
their youth, or make up for it by spending their twenties in a drunken stupor.

Think about it. Would you rather hit thirty, and have built a few things that
you can be really proud of, and take a shot at making some real dosh, or just
look back on a bunch of parties?

~~~
luckystrike
I would prefer to hit thirty having done car rallies in Himalayas, knowing how
to fly a plane, and building up some decent software as well. A bunch of
'memorable' parties would be an added bonus. :-) (And i think i should re-read
my comments before posting if they give the impression that the author wrote
them in a drunker stupor.)

Well i do not believe in the theory of one size fits all. If running a
business works well for you at this point of time, it's great and wish you
success in it. I guess i need some more convincing before i finally take the
plunge. (Yeah i know there is never a right time)

tom_rath put it across very well in his comment above: "You're not wasting
time if you genuinely enjoy how it is being spent."

~~~
donw
I think we're on the same page; I don't want my epitaph to read, "Well, he
sure worked a hell of a lot." So, I mis-interpreted your post... by quite a
bit. :)

------
Mistone
its now been one year since we officially closed up shop at my first startup,
and I've now been working at a big co for a year as well. I felt a deep sense
of loss after we closed down, while the financial pinch was very real, what
burns me to this day is the fact that we did not launch, because it leaves a
gaping "what if" void.

I feel fortunate to be working on my next startup in my off hours, and not
having any looming moonlighting conflicts (lesson learned) this time around.

A lot of the frustration I felt around the first failure motivated me to get
back in there with a new startup. Big or small, rich or poor there is nothing
like working on something that is truly yours. The sirens call to
entrepreneurship was more than I could resist.

thanks for sharing your experience here and go kill it at google for a while
until the siren calls you back.

------
timcederman
I thought this was a well-written, very honest, write-up.

~~~
puzzle-out
Not only can this guy write code, but his prose is fluent and insightful. A
pleasure to read such a well written post.

------
dhouston
jonathan -- thanks for the writeups & best of luck at google. you'll find some
good future cofounder material there. swing by dropbox HQ sometime :)

~~~
nostrademons
Thanks. I'm excited to finally get to Silicon Valley - a lot of the folks I've
met through various YC meetups have all moved out there.

------
mynameishere
Why didn't you let it run on auto-pilot?

(It was a games aggregator, right?)

~~~
nostrademons
It was a game creation engine, and we didn't complete it to a degree where I
would've felt comfortable launching it.

We also did a Flash games hosting site, as sort of a warmup, that was live and
had some traffic. I left the decision on whether to keep that running up to my
cofounder, since he was paying the server bills, and he chose to shut it down.
I think it was moderately unprofitable (as in, it costs $80/month to operate
and generated about $60/month in revenue) - it probably could have been
profitable had we downgraded to a shared webhost or VPS, but he didn't want
the hassle.

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admoin
congratulations on the new job!

~~~
nostrademons
thanks!

~~~
litewulf
Hm, it sounds like you may end up sitting near me (same department at least).

Hope I run into you, sounded like you did cool stuff.

