
Ask HN: Marriage - buggy_code
From reading the biographies of famous entrepreneurs (Gates, Ellison, Jobs, Woz, Clark) it seems like:<p>(<i>) those who marry in young 20s end up with divorce
(</i>) the successful marriage ends up one in the late 30s or early 40s<p>Can HN shed light on this? Do most entrepreneurs end up with this problem, or are these just especially high profile founders, and as a result, they needed balls of steel to bring the revolutions they did (thus probably resulting in slightly intolerable personalties).<p>Thanks!<p>[Curious about this myself via the whole: marriage or startup first question; marriage first results in the question of -- crap, I have responsibilities; startup first results in the issue of -- crap, gold diggers]
======
brk
_startup first results in the issue of -- crap, gold diggers_

This statement is funny. You seem to think you will make money of your first
startup :)

For most people entering the startup world today... find a girl with a comfy
couch that you can sleep on when you're broke.

In all seriousness, you need to assess where you really think you want to end
up.

I got married fairly young. Started a couple of companies and have
participated in many more. My wife is (mostly) understanding, and more
importantly intelligent and a good reality check for most of my schemes and
ideas. I couldn't imaging getting through some of the situations I've been in
without having someone who is knowledgeable and unbiased to discuss these
things with.

Figure out what you want to be when you grow up, and screen for a person who
fits those criteria.

~~~
josefresco
... or just fall in love.

(tip: you can't screen for it)

~~~
calvin
Exactly. You can't write a business plan for love. It happens, or it doesn't.

~~~
timr
you can't really write a business plan for a startup, either. ;-)

~~~
swombat
I'm wanting to make some lewd joke about iterating rapidly and keeping a keen
eye on your key metrics, but I've been told it's not the done thing around
here.

If I tried really hard, I'm sure I could work out an exit/IPO into it too.

------
grandalf
If you think of marriage as duty, responsibility, time commitment and
compromise then it probably isn't compatible with doing a startup.

But if you and your spouse love each other for being motivated, self-
actualized, driven, and passionate, then a startup and marriage can be
wonderfully complimentary.

I actually really liked the movie Revolutionary Road for this reason -- it
showed what happens when a guy who should be doing a startup ends up taking a
safe job because he thinks it's what his marriage demands of him. In reality
his wife was attracted to him because of his passion and his vision and she
only came to loathe the soft, mushy, 9 to 5er that he became. Not a perfect
parallel with the startup world but a great exploration of what it means to be
"a man" outside of the narrow confines of man as simple uninspired breadwinner
or corporate yes-man.

Bottom line: If your relationship thrives on the creative life-energy of
passion, work and drive, then go for it. If not, why would you want to marry
such a person?

~~~
breck
> I actually really liked the movie Revolutionary Road for this reason

This was one of my least favorite movies of all time until I read your take on
it. Didn't think of comparing it to the startup life.

------
krschultz
My plan was to start a startup at 22 or 23 and cash out at 30 and then find
that perfect woman and marry her then and not have to work much because I made
my money and blah blah blah.

Guess what, I found the perfect girl a year before I started the startup life
and she totally supports it. I'm not sure if I could have done what I do
without leaning on her and vice versa.

It is about the right person, not the right time or order. You can't plan when
or how you are going to meet the right person.

------
russell
50% of all US marriages end in divorce. I would say it's partly the poor
judgment of youth; mine wasn't so good. Maybe it has always been true, but now
it is easier to get out. Romance is a pretty poor basis for a marriage. With
mutual respect comes love and a more lasting relationship. Consider all the
other qualities needed for success.

Starting companies is a huge commitment and raising children is an
unbelievable stress load. The combination is a marriage killer.

With all that said, a good mate is a good thing to have.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
_Romance is a pretty poor basis for a marriage._

This is such a true statement, yet everything you see on TV, movies, the web,
etc. ignores it.

Marriage is a lot of work. Fun work and worthwhile, but sometimes the person
you love, well, you just don't like that much right now. You have to work
through problems. You just can't ignore them and hope they go away. I wouldn't
trade it for anything, and a good partner can change your universe. But it is
nothing like mass media has prepared you for.

~~~
jerf
I would never tell my wife this, but I think it's important for other people
to hear. I've never actually been "infatuated" with my wife. The only people
I've actually been that sort of "in love" with were utterly unmarriable (and
for that matter utterly un-relationshipable). That part of my brain really
seems to like the cute, crazy chick, but the problem with the cute, crazy
chick is that she's actually crazy. "Quirky" is cool and all, but the crazy
that comes with it, not so much.

No, all I have with my wife is love, a deep agreement on many of the important
issues (including how money should be spent), an agreement with how many
children we should have (broadly) and when and broad agreement on how to raise
them, the ability to be friends with each other and work through arguments,
and other such things. And a commitment. Love is primarily a _choice_ , not a
feeling.

If there's a part of you rebelling and saying that sounds cold and unfeeling,
kill that part. That's propaganda, bad social programming, and it will lead to
exactly the sort of pain and failure you'd expect when you _shut off your
brain for the one of the most important decisions of your life_.

It's not that feeling don't enter into it at all. I've got and had all kinds
of other feelings. (You can't tell because this is a text message and it's too
easy to read it as emotion-free.) I'm not saying that feelings or emotions are
bad; I'm saying that this one particular feeling is treacherous beyond belief.
If you are lucky enough to be infatuated with someone whom you can have a
relationship with, more power to you, but consider it a bonus, not a
prerequisite.

(I also think that if you do know what you are doing, some such things can be
decided surprisingly quickly. Some "love at first sight" stuff does work out
because it doesn't necessarily take two years to figure out whether you've got
this sort of deep compatibility. Sometimes two days is enough. I don't
_recommend_ that approach, but it can work.)

------
charlesju
I don't get why everyone pushes themselves so hard in a startup. I'm in a
fairly profitable startup right now (my first one, never had a job), and I
still have more time for my gf than she does for me.

If you have a good idea, solid team, you can execute on great ideas with 40-60
hrs a week. If you're spending more, you're not managing your resources
properly.

I really appreciate my gf, she helps me relax and take my mind off of work, so
that when I am working, I can be twice as productive.

~~~
swombat
I think the part that wreaks havoc with relationships is not so much the
amount of free time but the timing of it.

For example, if you start off working on your start-up on the side to check
your assumptions, that'll suck up a lot of your common free time.

Then, if you work full time on your start-up, you might find that a lot of
your essential networking and meetings happen outside of normal office hours.
So if your girlfriend is working office hours you might find that you've got a
lot of flexibility, just not when she does. So then you find yourself busy
when she's free and free when she's busy. Not a recipe for success.

------
granular
If you're in the USA, and you're male, don't do it. In the US, she can leave
you at any time and by default get the kids, house, child support, and
alimony. For a variety of reasons, the deck is obscenely stacked against you.

Regarding the kids, you have no idea how much you'll love your kids when you
have them. But if she decides to go, she won't care one bit about that.

And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "Ah, but you don't know
_her_. _She's_ different. She'd never do that." I'll tell you what: people
change -- in unexpected ways. Especially after the kids come.

Do some research. Google for "dads", "divorce", "custody", etc.

------
frossie
Well thanks for the laugh, I needed that today.

Folks, finding the person you want to spend the rest of your life with - you
know, the person that is going to stick around to wipe your... okay I'll say
drool... when you are 80 and have Alzheimers - that is a much more
unpredictable proposition than what you chose to do with your professional
life. If you are trying to time the former to the latter, you are taking a big
risk that the right person won't be around when you decide you are ready for
them.

Date. If you are still dating after 1-2 years and like it, move in, or else
break up and try again. If you are still living together and like it after 3
years get hitched, or break up and try again. By all means do not be hasty -
but please do not overplan this.

------
yummyfajitas
Don't marry if you are a guy. At present, marriage is a contract with no
upside for you. You gain nothing from marriage that you can't get from a
committed non-marital relationship, and stand to lose a lot.

~~~
scott_s
Marriage is a way of saying "My intention is to spend the rest of my life with
you as my partner." That means something to your partner. If you're _not_
willing to say that, then that means something, too.

~~~
pohl
That's an interesting perspective. What you're saying is that marriage is a
mode of communication for that one sentiment. Are there other modes of
communicating the same sentiment? (an epic poem, breaking into heartfelt song,
getting tattoos,...) Are they all equivalent? Does choosing to not express it
by marriage necessarily imply that one is not willing to express it at all?

~~~
scott_s
It doesn't just communicate it to your partner, but to society. Getting
married is a ritualized promise that is done before one's community of family
and friends. I think saying the vows to your partner, in front of your family
and friends, is markedly different than, say, writing a poem and getting
tattoos.

I suppose marriage is what you make of it. I consider being married to be a
different state than not being married. I don't see any state change happening
from writing a poem. But there is one with getting tattoos.

Whether or not you get married in the eyes of the state or a church I don't
think is important. But I do think that promise is important, and it is
further weighted if done publicly.

~~~
pohl
I can dig that. I've been through the process myself. In the beginning, my
thoughts on the matter were perfectly in line with yours.

Now that I'm on the other side, I've seen that neither the church, nor the
state, nor the social network of community witnesses (nor the legal commitment
of having adopted her two sons for that matter) could stand in the way of her
caprice-driven dalliances.

And, living in a "No Fault Divorce" state meant that her violation of the
terms of the marriage provided me no benefit or protection when it came time
to kick her to the curb out of self-preservation.

Society, with all its witnessing, was nowhere to be found. Everybody wants to
come to the wedding. Nobody wants to come to the divorce.

Next time I'll opt for the tattoo. ;-)

------
btwelch
Attracting gold diggers is a problem of success.

More likely, you should be more concerned that doing your startup first and
neglecting relationships means you will burn through your younger years (and
younger looks) and won't be able to leverage them when it comes to finding a
mate. Then, if your startup fails... oops, no leverage at all.

~~~
barry-cotter
Hey, if he wants leverage he could go live and work abroad for a while where a
middle class US lifestyle is livin' it up. Also men's pulling power is a lot
less dependent on looks than womens'.

------
seanc
Lots of good comments here, many of them all true at the same time.

A marriage is a such a big commitment (10 times bigger if there are kids),
that if there is something in your life more important than your marriage, it
(probably) won't last.

Some people seem to make this kind of thing work, but I think it's quite rare.

My philosophy is that companies come and go (especially startups), but a
loving family will last you a lifetime, and have a much bigger impact on your
happiness and wellbeing than success and work.

------
TrevorJ
From talking to a lot of married couples it seems as if marriage takes a lot
of work and a lot of self-sacrifice. Perhaps the maturity of age has something
to do with the successful marriages being those that where entered into later.

~~~
lutorm
_Relationships_ take a lot of work and a lot of self-sacrifice, regardless of
whether you are married or not, I'd say.

~~~
TrevorJ
I agree with that. I think it's a continuum. Most other relationships don't
have the expectation that he should be life-long, day in and day out things.
That added constraint ups the anty on the difficulty a bit I think.

------
vaksel
I think it has to do with the work load. When you are young, you pretty much
focus 100% on your business and neglect your relationships...so you work 60-80
hours a week trying to get it off the ground and make something of yourself.

In your 30s/40s, you are already more or less successful and can have a lot
more free time, so you can switch to the basic 9 to 5. And have time for
family and kids.

As far as gold diggers etc, just stop showing off your wealth and you'll be
fine. Even if you saw Steve Jobs or Bill Gates on the street, chances are
you'd never think it was them. But put them in a Ferrari and you'll probably
connect the dots. Worst case scenario, you can go James Bond on this issue.
Have your mansion and the Ferrari in one town. And a rented apartment and a
Honda in the next one.

~~~
teej
> Even if you saw Steve Jobs or Bill Gates on the street, chances are you'd
> never think it was them.

I saw Eric Schmidt on University Ave in Palo Alto last year, and I didn't need
a Ferrari to believe it. He was actually driving a Prius.

~~~
vaksel
How do you know it was him and not just someone who looked like him? Thats
what I mean, if you more or less appear average, most people won't link you to
the "celebrity".

------
Kaizyn
When you look at the entire human population, you will see very different
statistics for marriage and divorce. Now many people who marry young will get
divorced (at least in the United States), but then so will many who wait until
later in life to marry. Your sample there is too small to draw any meaningful
conclusions.

As marriage relates to a startup or any entrepreneurship, the fact is that you
only have so many hours in a day. Most spouses like their mate enough to want
to spend some nontrivial amount of time with them. When this time commitment
cannot be fulfilled due to wanting to the entrepreneur working insane hours in
the basement or whatever else, it will put strain on that relationship. In
short, having good personal relationships requires a major time commitment.
Any startup or other entrepreneurial project also requires a significant time
commitment. Depending on how these are managed or not, it can lead to a
successful startup and failed relationship or vice versa. If you take greater
care, then you can make both work but that won't be easy. After all, nothing
worthwhile is particularly easy.

------
xenophanes
Don't marry.

<http://curi.us/blog/post/1168-monogamy>

~~~
chops
I'm not sure why this is being downvoted, but I think it's a fascinating read.
This is particularly powerful, I think:

 _We shouldn't be scared of trying things that aren't best, and if something
is genuinely good, it shouldn't fear criticism and rivals. If it's good, it
will beat those rivals._

There's something so true in that. There's nothing weaker than a guy that gets
furiously jealous if his wife/girlfriend talks to another guy. It's the
confident ones that know they are the best that aren't afraid of competition.

Thank you for posting that. A very good read

Edit: on second thought, perhaps it's just a _little_ bit off topic (it talks
about marriage, but not with respect to startups). Perhaps it would be better
as it's own submission.

~~~
thoughtidsay
> There's nothing weaker than a guy that gets furiously jealous if his
> wife/girlfriend talks to another guy. It's the confident ones that know they
> are the best that aren't afraid of competition.

There's nothing weaker than a startup founder who gets furiously jealous if
his employee aids and abets another company. It's the confident ones that know
they're the best that aren't afraid of competition. No reason to get
litigious, a little competition is all.

Jealousy is a basic human emotion of paramount importance. Loyalty is a
cornerstone of society. I value deviation from the norm as much as the next
free spirit, but deviation from this basic principle I will not allow myself
ever. There is nothing insecure or weak about the territorial insticts humans
associates with things of value. It may have a perfectly sound evolutionary
explanation, it has a perfectly sound religious explanation, no matter how you
split it, it's there. I don't buy that it's cultural, except may be some
manifestations of it. There must exist a core which transcends culture.
Perhaps protection of offspring can form one tenet of such core, but I'm no
expert and this is not a proof.

Nonetheless, let me give you an example of how jealousy is simply a construct
which one can use to describe a particular response to a given stimulus. Let's
say one is walking down the street and notices a pile of trash. One, not
prodded or otherwise influenced decides to do the "right thing" and remove the
trash. The prospect is not pleasant, but one proceeds out of some motivation
that is not relevant. Then let's say someone swoops by and picks up the trash
and hurries it away. The first individual may very well be relieved of no
longer having to deal with the trash, and feel grateful for another's "brazen"
act. Let's replace trash with gold. Sure, some people may say: "meh, it's just
a pile of gold, let 'em have it!". Some might get very upset. See, here we
have jealousy measure a degree to which a given individual can raise their
defenses. It's a protection mechanism more than an act of insecurity. Just as
carrying a gun to a gun fight is a protection measure. If you chose to bring a
knife "cuz you're confident", you'd get a few in the dome and that'd be the
end of it. Just as any old general strategy or planning. Granted, one can
still lose even with a bazooka, and some can win with a knife, but one had
better be prepared regardless.

So back to relationships. If one partner decides that they're liable to "chat
someone up and accidentally have sex" they should divorce/separate and carry
on. Unless their significant other has agreed that it's normal and is liable
to do the same. Those relationships work, they're fine, but they're a contract
of sorts. Let's not conflate the desire to keep something special, with the
inability to let people "talk to others". If we define "talking to others" as
being a precursor to a steamy side life, then we're talking of different
things. No one owes anyone anything, unless one has a previous arrangement
which forges a contract. However, when we enter a mutual contract with another
party, a modicum of self worth is good to keep honest to oneself, and the
loved one. Of course people make mistakes, and if they so choose, they can
separate and pick a different life. But back stabbing is one of the most weak
and worthless acts of human nature. There are amazing stories of couples that
not only went through true horrors in their life and remained together, but
remained loyal in the face of seduction from a rather "appetizing
proposition". I respect, and dare I say even admire such people. Lastly, since
it's inevitable that the "self preservation and self interest uber alles" is
an always-nascent thought, I would only say this: if one wants polygamy, then
there are plenty of partners who also do; pick N.

Sorry for the rant.

Edit: response to your edit:

> We shouldn't be scared of trying things that aren't best, and if something
> is genuinely good, it shouldn't fear criticism and rivals. If it's good, it
> will beat those rivals.

I'm not afraid to admit that I'm not perfect and that I experience full range
of emotions when it comes to loved ones. Had it been otherwise, had I thought
that I was the best thing that ever graced this planet, perhaps then I would
have no motivation for jealousy. Likewise I cannot eradicate it, since I see
it as innate. Perhaps some people are just not able to experience jealousy at
all. Perhaps. I doubt it, but I cannot know, nor can I avoid it. Nor do I know
anyone who can. Nor will I ever deny that I do. Best I can hope for is that
I'm good enough for the love of my life and that we can go to the end
together. If that doesn't work, it was not to be. I can do what I can to keep
the relationship working on all fronts, physical and otherwise, but I cannot
pretend that nothing better than me can arise. There are truly lucky people
who have loved ones that choose what they have, over the greener pastures. We
can't all be perfect. Likewise I'm all for experimentation, outside of
marriage or a relationship that is, or in a relationship that is predicated on
experimentation. I'm just appalled at an apparent justification of betrayal.

~~~
xenophanes
> I value deviation from the norm as much as the next free spirit, but
> deviation from this basic principle I will not allow myself ever.

I think it's bad to be a 'free spirit' in the sense of wanting to deviate from
the norm. I do appreciate variety, but I'd prefer if there was less need to
deviate. Radical and counter-intuitive ideas are harder to implement, and it's
harder to find associates with those shared values. The point of deviating
from the norm is that some normal ideas _hurt people_ or _cause problems_. At
least that's what I think. There is a genuine disagreement about the wisdom of
some normal ideas, not just deviation for the sake of being a free spirit.

> If one partner decides that they're liable to "chat someone up and
> accidentally have sex" they should divorce/separate and carry on.

That's one option but there are lots of others. Richard Feynman made a game
out of not cheating on Arline with tempting girls. He enjoyed the challenge.
If you don't want to cheat, there are rational ways to accomplish that.

> I'm just appalled at an apparent justification of betrayal.

I think it's bad to betray people. I also think it's generally wise not to
make promises that are hard to keep in the first place. One reason is this
reduces the number of betrayals that take place. Another reason is that it's
hard to predict the future and predict what you will want in the future.

~~~
thoughtidsay
Free spirit, free thinker, thoughtful, radical are some descriptions of the
same idea. I guess it depends on the vantage point. A radical opposition to an
oppression that catalyses a positive outcome, is viewed as a positive
deviation by some, and of course viewed as a negative deviation by the
oppressors. I basically try as I can to evaluate most "big ideas" on their
merits, to the extent of my ability. I don't have neither the time nor energy
to evaluate everything so some things I take at face value. So in my view, the
more people who choose to think outside of the boundaries of a given
established "norm", the more healthy the society in general. This is an
enormous topic, so what I said is not even a splinter of it.

> That's one option but there are lots of others. Richard Feynman made a game
> out of not cheating on Arline with tempting girls. He enjoyed the challenge.
> If you don't want to cheat, there are rational ways to accomplish that.

Basically I view change of heart as a normal occurrence. It happens, there are
far worse things in life. But I also view betrayal in some of the most
negative light possible. Divorce/separate and off you go. I just don't see a
solution to suppressing one's urge. If one is convinced they've "finally found
the right person" then what next? I don't know, but I do know that to exercise
that urge while feigning ignorance is pathetic example of a human malice and
weakness. At least hold it until you can separate and inform your former
"loved one" of your intentions. Otherwise, if it's a fleeting "crush". Drop it
like a hot potato and move on. Why betray? Because it feels good? I don't
know. Why make your loved one jealous? Some do it out of spite -- it becomes
an endless game of getting back at each other.

> I think it's bad to betray people. I also think it's generally wise not to
> make promises that are hard to keep in the first place.

There are civil and fruitful means of dissolving a contract. It's just my view
that conniving and lying and otherwise being unfaithful is an anathema to
reason, trust and a healthy society. That's my view of course, and I don't
plan to impose it on others in any way, but I will go to the utmost of my
ability to abide by it.

It's just so happens that jealousy is the central emotion that runs through
the veins of the aforementioned beast. Human interaction is built on jealousy
and it can be either good or bad. I think few other emotions, except perhaps
fear, have more influence over our lives, or are as central. I remain suspect
when people claim immunity to it.

------
prawn
Whatever you do, when it comes to marriage, don't rush into it. Don't do it
because it seems like the next logical step, don't do it because it brings a
partner health benefits, don't do it because either family is pushing you.

You can take your time, give the r'ship loads of time to be tested (by travel,
financial compromises, living together, sexual compatibility, etc) - if and
when you do it, only do it for absolutely the right reasons.

It's harder to undo than it is to do.

(Personally: Married and divorced before 25. Now engaged to someone after 6-7
years together including living together for much of that, and travelling the
world for 12 months.)

------
JoelPM
I used to believe that you could pick any two of the following three items:

1) A job you like and are good at 2) A body you like and take care of 3) A
marriage & family you invest in and enjoy

I've found that you can have all three, but it requires a lot of flexibility,
discipline, and willingness to say no to everything else (which is really just
a manifestation of being disciplined).

I don't think marriage and a start-up are always mutually exclusive. In some
cases they are, either due to the spouse or the start-up (or yourself,
possibly), but if you're willing to be disciplined and set boundaries it's
definitely possible.

------
blender
Wives are like startups. You fail at the first one.

I speak from personal experience on both counts.

;-)

------
chollida1
I think the biggest problem is that both a marriage and a successful company
require a lot of work. And when push comes to shove you sometimes have to let
one suffer inorder to help the other.

The guys you mention above all fit into the work is their life mold where they
throw themselves into what ever they were doing. This won't surprise anyone
but that doesn't really endear yourself to your partner.

I know a very successful entrepreneur who has been married 4 times now. Each
one of his wives couldn't stand coming second to work and I'll bet that each
one went into the marriage thinking that this time it would be different, that
they could change him.

------
gits_tokyo
First question you should be asking yourself...

Why do I want to be married?

------
rsheridan6
If you get married, there's a good chance that your wife will want you to quit
and get a stable job with reasonable hours. Even if she doesn't now, that's
likely to change if you have children. It's also likely that her patience will
wear thin eventually, especially if your first startup fails and you want to
try another one.

------
noodle
frankly, i think its a commentary on marriage, not just entrepreneurial or
techie marriages.

divorce rates are higher with younger couples. the younger, the higher.

~~~
josefresco
where's the beef? got a url to back that up? would love to read up on it.

~~~
noodle
<http://www.divorcerate.org/>

------
bokonist
I cannot find the statistic, but I am sure I read once that statistically
marriages started between 23-27 have the lowest rates of divorce (if you only
count first marriages, then I think the lowest rates come at a bit older age).
Anyway, it's marrying before 23 that has the much, much higher rates of
divorce. After that, I wouldn't worry about statistics.

------
pj
Marriage increases your responsibilities and, consequently, reduces your risk
tolerance. Maybe it wasn't a choice, just so happened that it was because of
the higher risk tolerance that those unmarried individuals could be so risky.

------
kirubakaran
These 'gold diggers' that you refer to... are they top-karma users of Digg?

------
ahoyhere
OK, putting aside that this is clearly not the best place to ask for marriage
advice...

Have you compared the "statistics" you gathered about (male) (hugely rich)
founders marriage success ages to the general pool of marriages?

I'm pretty sure I read that more marriages <25 end up in divorce than >25.

