

Dulce et Decorum Est - KC8ZKF
http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

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bbg
The phrase is from Horace, Carmen 3.2, line 13.

[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%...](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0025%3Abook%3D3%3Apoem%3D2)

Whether it's ironic or not is hard to say. It doesn't really sound like it.
First he urges a boy to become skilled in war, then he pictures the boy's
fiancee begging him not to fight against the enemy's star fighter -- a lion of
a warrior. Then the poet says, "it is sweet and fitting to die on behalf of
one's country," and goes on the describe the heroic qualities of personified
Virtue in face of opposition.

Horace did claim to have himself thrown away his shield and fled from battle
when in the service of the republican cause (the side of Brutus) after the
death of Caesar. But he's also picking up on a theme used by early Greek
poets, like Alcaeus, so it's questionable how much of this confession is
literary trope and how much is historical evidence. Furthermore, Horace had
been fighting on the losing side, and he later found it necessary to receive
pardon from the victor Octavian (aka Augustus), so better to sound like he
supported the republicans only half-heartedly. On the other hand, it might
well still be true that he ditched his shield and ran.

The poem dates from after his military experience, and belongs to a collection
of poems called the 'Roman Odes' that celebrate Rome and the emperor Augustus.

I think that's mostly correct, but it's been a while since I studied these
things.

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lsd5you
It should be noted that in the original latin work, 'Dulce et decorum est pro
patria mori ...' the phrase is also spoken with irony/satire, but then
subsequently taken out of context and used to rally the troops. Or at least
that is my understanding.

~~~
telemachos
I'm sorry to say, but your understanding is wrong. As another poster mentions,
the poem (Ode III, 2) is from a series of highly patriotic poems, often called
"the Roman odes" as a group. (That name is modern. It covers Odes III, 1-6.)

Many people feel that there are various levels of implicit irony or criticism
in Horace's pro-Roman or pro-Augustan poems, but the surface level is clearly
positive.

~~~
lsd5you
So you are not an intentionalist?

I'm not equiped to argue this authoratively, but from what i gather the words
taken literally are out of character, so are at least disingenious at some
level. Unless he really believed in the message, how can such a strident
message be anything but ironic,satirical or hollow.

~~~
telemachos
I'm an intentionalist about meaning, but I'm not sure that's the right
question. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean or what you're asking.

Horace's personal character is hard to know. The character of the speaker in
his _Odes_ , however, is that of an older, world-weary man, somewhat cynical
about love, philosophy and politics. But this same persona acknowledges
frequently that he owes his life of leisure to Maecenas and Augustus, and he
makes his living (the character and the real man in this case) as a court
poet.

As a younger man, Horace fought on the (so-called) Republican side with the
army of Brutus and Cassius. Like many of the young men who were in that army
and lived, he returned to Rome and was _not_ penalized or pursued by Octavian
(later Augustus). Octavian as a young man could be brutal to his enemies, but
in this case he wasn't.

The _Odes_ are filled with many sub-types of poems, but two basic types: lyric
poems, praising the life of leisure and ease that the speaker enjoys
(explicitly because of the gifts of Maecenas and Augustus) and poems
explicitly praising Maecenas, Augustus and various political allies and
generals under Augustus. The books are explicitly dedicated to Maecenas, who
has been described as Octavian/Augustus's minister of propaganda. They are
formally examples of poetry of praise: praise of Augustus, his reign and Rome.

So, the words _dulce et decorum_ are arguably not in character in the sense
that the speaker (an older man, far past the point of joining any army) can't
live up to them, but they are entirely in character with the tone, spirit and
content of the first three books of _Odes_. (If anything the 4th book of
_Odes_ , written much later, is even more fawningly propagandistic.)

By the way, it sounds like you are going on what you've heard/read from
others, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I would urge you to read that
whole poem and even better _Odes_ III, 1-6, to get a sense of their tone.
There's simply nothing in III, 2 to suggest irony or satire.

~~~
lsd5you
Thanks, that is educational. You are right, at this level of discussion I only
have 2nd opinions ...

Yet seemingly there are academics that disagree with you, in plain english -
<http://www.jstor.org/pss/3291643>.

It does raise the question about how well we can know what people meant and
felt 2000yrs ago, particularly in this case given the political context.

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bravura
_DULCE ET DECORUM EST - the first words of a Latin saying (taken from an ode
by Horace). The words were widely understood and often quoted at the start of
the First World War. They mean "It is sweet and right."_

I prefer the motto of the Harvard Advocate: DULCE EST PERICULUM. "Sweet is
danger"

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balding_n_tired
Good point,bbg--it struck me as a bit like Robert Burns writing "The Devil
Away with the Excise Man".

I believe that the line is close to being a translation from a line in one of
Tyrtaeus's poems. I definitely vote with telemachos on this one.

------
carey
For added poignancy, the author of the poem, Wilfred Owen, was killed one week
before the end of the war, and his mother (apocryphally?) received the
telegram as the bells rang for the first Armistice Day.

------
MarkPNeyer
For those unaware (or too lazy to go to the website) the transliteration is as
follows:

'Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori' -> Sweet and fitting it is for the
fatherland to die.

~~~
rwmj
Yes I'd agree with the other reply that "pro patria" is "for [your] country",
and has nothing to do with the word "fatherland".

(And yes I did study Latin for about 10 years).

~~~
telemachos
Different countries personify their nations in different ways, or not at all.
The Latin word _patria_ is feminine, and Cicero and others personified Roma as
a woman.

That said, 'fatherland' is not necessarily an unreasonable translation of
_patria_ , depending on the context. (It does have some unfortunate overtones
now, but that's accidental.)

~~~
LyBar
The Latin word patria is feminine -- If that is the case,then riddle me this:
Why are Kings referred to as patriarchs and Queens referred to as Matriarchs?
Why is one's father's family called Paternal relatives and one's mother's
considered maternal relatives? Why is the Latin word for father pater, patr
and for mother mater, matr? Why do the electronic and online translaters say
patria means fatherland?

