
I don't know - do
http://blog.42floors.com/i-dont-know/
======
saosebastiao
I swear to god, every time I read a post by Jason, I wish he was my manager. I
consider myself a highly productive person, but constantly hampered, directly
and indirectly, by terrible managers. Jason always comes off as the kind of
person that amplifies the abilities of his team. That is all...I'm gushing and
its embarrassing.

~~~
jmnicolas
Until office politics doesn't allow anybody to be promoted in a management
position, we will suffer from incompetent managers.

Ask me how I know.

~~~
chris_wot
You were recently promoted?

~~~
jmnicolas
Ah ah ah, not exactly.

------
alexandros
The problem is that the engineer's "I don't know" gets beaten out of you when
you speak to users and investors. You get made to feel like an amateur for
admitting uncertainty. Which is absurd in the startup world of all places. So
it's one of those doublethink situations, where you need to keep your internal
accounting separate from the marketing talk. And then you need to know who to
tell what on top of that. And then actually deal with the actual uncertainty
on top of _that_. As if startups weren't hard enough in general, we're making
it even worse for ourselves.

~~~
dredmorbius
Those are probably users and/or investors you're better off not having.
Conversely, answering "we're not sure, but here are some parameters of the
situation / dimensions" suggests you're at least cognizant of the area.

There's also the case of implausible ignorance: the "I don't recall" defense
popular in politics and business PR-speak. This tends to _decrease_
credibility.

------
nsomaru
In Indian culture, knowledge (viveka) is always accompanied with humility
(vinaya).

Thus, counter-intuitively, saying 'I don't know' is an indicator of the
speaker's knowledge, as he is aware of areas of his ignorance.

Contrast with an arrogant attitude of "I-know-everything-or-can-find-it-out"
and the fuck-ups that inevitably follow.

Aside: I would really like to know what the solution to keeping the listings
updated was. Or, is that a trade secret? ;)

edit: s/Aide/Aside

~~~
joeframbach
It's interesting that you brought that up. As a westerner, I admit I don't
have a great understanding of eastern cultures outside of the few movies I've
seen. One stereotype, which I'd like some real clarification on, is the
Chinese or Japanese societal culture of "saving face", or honor code. Could
you give some insight on that cultural facet and how it pertains to
knowledge/humility? I remember after the Fukushima incident, there was some
talk of the officials' honor preventing them from admitting things were as bad
as they were, making the entire situation worse. Is this pervasive as I'm led
to believe? Would this come up in interviews and professional careers? Does it
hinder our advances in technology?

~~~
jblok
Just because someone is from India, it doesn't mean they know everything about
(incredibly diverse) cultures from every other country on the same continent.
It's like asking an American of the culture of Brazil.

~~~
eterm
Yes, "Hey you're from India, what's it like it Japan" is almost hilariously
insensitive. (Actually just tragic).

It's along the same lines as:

[Hears X is from country Y] "Oh do you know bob?"

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _[Hears X is from country Y] "Oh do you know bob?"_

Which is an entirely reasonable question, because if X from country Y is at
the same party as you, then there's a good chance he might know your friend
Bob. It's a small world, they say.

~~~
jorde
With smaller countries and specific industries this gets scary close to the
truth: If I ever hear about another Finn from a person here in San Francisco,
my first reaction is to ask the full name in case I know them - and in
surprisingly many cases I do. World is a small place when you're part of a
community.

------
Jemaclus
It's not just "I don't know" that is important, but also the next part of the
thought: "but I can find out."

Just admitting you don't know is great, but it's not good enough. You have to
also be able to take the next step _and find out_.

If I ask two people if they know how to do something, and one of them says "I
don't know" and the other says "I don't know, but I can find out," then...
well, I don't really need to complete that thought. You can see the difference
right there.

But other than that, Jason is spot on. This is something I've been keeping an
eye out for for years. When I interview people, I ask a question, and when
they're clearly bullshitting me, I'll stop them and say, "It's okay if you
don't know." The best candidates will often back down, like Jason did in his
example, and say "Yeah, I don't really know, but I'll figure it out."

Bullshitting me with an answer isn't a red flag. It means you're at least
thinking about the problem. But admitting you don't know but are willing to
figure it out is a far, far superior answer. Very few real-world problems
demand an answer RIGHT NOW. Most can wait until some research is done.

~~~
joshdotsmith
I happen to be in Army Officer Candidate School at the moment, and this is how
the majority of the selection and training process works. A lot of pressure
for people to answer things _right now_ , but most of us don't actually know
the answer. Without fail, the most motivated and successful candidates are the
ones who say "Sir, Officer Candidate ______, I don't know but I will have an
answer to you by [hack time]."

~~~
chris_mahan
How can one know how long it will take to get an answer? That's just a lie of
bravado, a pressure-driven estimate. It's horrible in a business environment.
What happens is the person will give the first answer that makes sense, which,
while the answer may be correct, discourages deep analysis of the problem.

I never give estimates, to the great fury of my boss, but I told him I don't
want to lie.

Lying is unethical, and accepting a lie, or not calling out a liar, is
encouraging unethical behavior.

If someone tells me: "I'll have an answer, or: be done with the work, by a
certain date/time, I shake my head, then reply: "Don't make promises. Just let
me know when it's done."

~~~
flebron
So how do you handle any sort of software development planning? Do you just
tell the client "It'll be done eventually. I'll let you know when.", or would
you accept that reply from your employees?

~~~
chris_mahan
That's why agile is used: We'll show you what we have at an agreed upon time
(1 week, 2 weeks, 6 weeks, whatever) and you can say "that's fine keep going"
or "hmmm, we should change direction."

~~~
joncrocks
But even with agile, you have to have some kind of idea how long an overall
project might take, otherwise how do you even decide if a project is worth
starting?

Estimating is hard, but it's an estimate. Problems usually arise when one
gives an estimate of 'X days' and what the manager hears is 'It will take X
days, and no longer.'

An estimate will increase in accuracy the more you know, so if you don't feel
comfortable giving an estimate, ask the question: "What information do I need
to know to give me comfort for an estimate of Y% accuracy" and ask more
questions.

~~~
dragonwriter
> But even with agile, you have to have some kind of idea how long an overall
> project might take, otherwise how do you even decide if a project is worth
> starting?

If each iteration is producing sufficient independent business value (e.g.,
not dependent on _subsequent_ iterations), then you don't have to estimate the
size of the "overall project" to determine if it is worth starting. That's
actually a key part of the risk mitigation provided by agile/lean methods.

------
Bahamut
This reminds me of what a good PHP dev told me once - he interviewed a bunch
of candidates for a company before as a favor, asking a bunch of specific
tough domain questions. Almost all of the candidates tried to spew a bunch of
nonsense & wiggle their way through them, but only one candidate had the
confidence to tell him each time that "I don't know, I would google it". That
was the candidate that got hired, and when that person asked down the line why
he was picked, the person who interviewed him told him that he was the only
candidate to not bullshit him and tell him the answer that reflected how
software engineers think.

There is value in people who can tell upfront what their thoughts are, since
they are identifying where there are potential problems.

~~~
vacri
Herein lies the problem with DDG - it probably wouldn't sound as good to say
"I don't know the answer to that question; I would Duck it."

------
larrys
"While there are lots of tactics, there is no one true silver bullet. "

I'm old enough to have worked with Coldwell Banker when they rolled out their
commercial real estate operations on the East Coast (they had been only a west
coast company at first).

What they did was assign a college student (typically on summer break or part
time) to go out to each area and literally catalog all the commercial office
space for part of the time and then the rest they would spend in the office
calling up the building owner (or manager) and verifying the data collected.

This was many years ago but it worked quite well. A database was compiled and
updated.

Bottom line is no matter how you cut this is a manual process.

You know why the yellow pages was such a success? Relevant data that while it
came out 1 time per year typically was highly accurate for that year.

They made enough money (by selling advertising to a captive audience) that
they were able to employ an entire quality checking and sales organization to
verify and collect the data which ended up in a product that was widely used
up until the internet came along. But once again they had the profit margin
and captive audience to make the whole process work and that was a key part of
that success.

------
kliao
I really like this idea and try to apply it as much as possible. In my
experience, for any kind of teamwork, the faster we get to the "I don't
knows", the faster we solve problems, while stating half-truths/guesses-as-
facts spreads confusion and kills productivity. I've also noticed that the
type of person who is afraid to admit knowledge gaps is usually also the one
who looks at me funny or expresses disapproval whenever I use the phrase. It's
as if they are confused as to why I would ever admit such weakness.

~~~
belovedeagle
As one of those people who rarely says "I don't know", let me offer a
different view: saying "I don't know" is negative and gets you nowhere.
Instead of saying "I don't know", say what you do know. Then you're a step
closer to understanding than anyone who said "I don't know"; and you're likely
to be several steps ahead by the time they get over that hesitation.

Now, guesses should never be presented as absolute facts, but having a guess
puts you much closer to the truth than having nothing. If you really, truly
have nothing, no relevant knowledge---which should rarely happen if you're
well-educated and/or experienced, in which case you're a novice to the
subject, where somewhat different rules apply---then say so; otherwise, go
with what you know and learn the rest on the way. Will mistakes sometimes
happen? Will you sometimes head down dead-ends? Absolutely, but that's part of
the learning process and we shouldn't be afraid of mistakes, as long as we're
in a process which is tolerant of them. (If you're pushing code to production,
for example, then that's a time either to know or not to know, not to guess.
But that's the end of the process, not when you're asking questions.)

So if you said to me, "I don't know", I might look at you funny because it's
probably not true: you probably do know, at least partially; it just seems
like you're not willing to acknowledge that.

~~~
watwut
I hate that. And after I worked as analyst, I started to hate that even more.

Just say "I do not know" and do not waste your and my time with monologues
full of guesses and sort-of-related-but-not-relevant info. It does not help.
It just wastes time.

If you say, "I do not know" we can work on it. We can file it as an open
question until you know. We can ask somebody else or search for information.

And btw, the answer to "Will mistakes sometimes happen" question is: guesses
cause them very often and they slow analysis a lot. You just do not see it,
because I can not go to you and show you all your wrong guess mistakes. I have
to smile and pretend that I trust you while triple checking everything you say
which again, slow down analysis.

Working with people able to say "I do not know" is way easier and faster.

~~~
belovedeagle
You're treating knowledge as a binary, which it isn't. My way deals more
gracefully with thinking you know and being wrong: since you always say what
you know, but allow that it may be just a guess, you're always prepared to
back off and rethink it. But if you treat knowledge as yes/no, then when you
think you know and you say that "yes", you're ready to go full-steam ahead and
you're less likely to turn back, since you already "decided" that "I don't
know" wasn't the answer.

------
collyw
I wish politicians would have this attitude instead of avoiding the questions
and coming out with meaningless statements.

~~~
at-fates-hands
I hate to point this out, but when he was running for Governor, Jesse Ventura
used to say it all the time. I remember in several of the debates when asked
tough economic questions.

"I don't have the answer to your question, but I know if I'm elected, I'll
appoint the brightest economic people I can find to solve the problem."

As opposed to other candidates who either talked along party lines and said
they would tax the rich or give tax breaks to businesses and rich people.

I still feel like it was one of the most important things he said that got him
elected. He never acted like he had all the answers.

~~~
Uehreka
If he got elected and that worked for him, then awesome, but I could
understand why many people would take issue with that way of answering
questions.

When it comes to politics, a lot of people aren't looking to elect someone for
their decision-making ability. They're looking to elect someone who is making
the same decisions that they've made. For instance, people don't want a
candidate who will "investigate whether universal healthcare is a good idea".
The people have already decided whether or not it is, and they want someone
who will agree with them.

In addition, not having a hardened position on something _could_ mean that you
intend to compromise with the opposition on that issue in order to appeal to
more voters.

~~~
rahimnathwani
This. Or at least someone who appears to share the same values and decision-
making criteria.

------
adamzerner
> Kiran explained that he likes it when people say I don’t know because it
> lends credibility to everything else that they’ve said.

I'd take that a step further, and say that people who assign proper levels of
certainty to their beliefs tend to be credible. Most people seem to only be
able to think in absolutes.

~~~
waylandsmithers
Hey! I do this! It tends to drive people insane!

~~~
adamzerner
Well you did a good job by saying "tends to" :)

------
zaidf
If you found the post interesting, you may also like reading how Kiran seems
to have attacked the question he posed to Jason:
[http://divvela.com/post/77189320557/an-army-to-help-
you](http://divvela.com/post/77189320557/an-army-to-help-you)

------
georgemcbay
Good point, and I agree, I also enjoy working with people who can admit when
they just don't know something. It shouldn't be so hard to do, there is a
nearly infinite amount of stuff each of us doesn't know -- especially when it
comes to forward looking challenges we just haven't started thinking
concretely about yet. My favorite response when asked about such things is
"I'm not sure; we'll burn that bridge when we get to it".

This topic is even more relevant for software over other types of knowledge,
IMO, keeping in mind the Knuth quote "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have
only proved it correct, not tried it".

Even when I'm pretty sure that task XYZ can be completed relatively easily
using language A, framework B and API C, I still won't answer in complete
absolutes unless I've worked on the compiler for A, written a fair amount of
B, and previously exhausted all the functionality of C.

------
johngalt
Someone who has all the answers, probably has an important answer wrong.

Also, don't look at people's plans, look at their criteria.

------
megablast
Some people like to hear "I don't know".

Lots of people do not like to hear "I don't know".

~~~
marcosdumay
Looks like a great way for filtering the ones you want to work with.

------
cmbaus
While the point of the article isn't the domain problem, I'll add that the
hardest management job I've had was trying to retroactively fix a data
aggregation process that had been built manually over many years.

The work was extraordinarily tedious, error prone, yet business critical. We
had to keep shimming in new parts of the system, while keeping the old system
afloat. While the system was always on the verge of imploding, from the
outside, it basically appeared to work, which kept the project chronically
understaffed.

I have a lot respect for anyone who aggregates time critical production data
from different sources. The nature of the work makes it extremely stressful,
yet surprisingly easy for outsiders to underestimate.

------
tadmilbourn
I like to think of this as being "confident in your ignorance." Whether you're
a manager or early in your career, the way in which you admit what you don't
know and ask clarifying questions can have a profound impact.

------
scrabble
If I don't know something I've made it a point to tell them that.

Generally, I follow it up by letting whomever know that I can attempt to
discover an answer to the question.

If the question is about how something works, I'll occasionally explain how I
think it might work based on how I'd implement it, but again advise that it's
just a guess and I really do not know.

------
ilaksh
Its amazing how small people are that they aren't able to admit they don't
know something. Its quite common though.

------
Paul_S
I'm slightly exasperated with this mythical cultural fit being used as the end
all quality you seek in your potential employee. If someone can please spare
some time to write a no-nonsense definition so that even an alien could
understand I'll be grateful. All I ever get are hand-wavy explanations.

~~~
DanBC
It's an easy way to get sued for discrimination.

------
btilly
My attitude is that preemptive honesty establishes credibility. Even more when
it is backed up by everything else you do.

By contrast up front evidence of defensive behavior is a red flag for me in
all sorts of situations.

------
untangle
"I don't know" is very good; "I'll find out" is usually better. So I was
taught as a plebe at the Naval Academy...

------
chrisweekly
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b708iZ5A_I](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b708iZ5A_I)

------
thomseddon
<title>the_title();</title>

~~~
bernardjhuang
fixed.

~~~
thomseddon
:)

------
codeulike
I don't know what I think about this.

------
glibgil
When I read blogs like this I think "Dear Penthouse..." The original humble-
brag medium.

