
Barefoot shoes try to outrace the black market - edw519
http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/13/smallbusiness/vibram_fivefingers/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin
======
cgs1019
Seems like there is a great business opportunity in here somewhere. Something
like SSL certs but for identifying brands being sold online. I understand the
basics of encryption and digital signatures but not enough to see immediately
how this could be done reliably. Maybe the retailer would register with the
manufacturer and receive a temporary or at least regularly updated private key
to use in dynamically requesting a "badge" of legitimacy to fetch and display
on the page. This might require browser support to be truly effective, as with
https changing the appearance of the address bar. Someone should jump on this.
I can see it being an indispensable web feature as more brands suffer
counterfeiting online. Of course, it's already a problem offline in many ways
but at least online one could be reasonably proactive in mitigating it. $2500
a pop in legal fees to shut down an illegitimate counterfeiting competitor is
exorbitant and the problem could be solved more cheaply and efficiently.

EDIT: spelling (typed this on my phone)

------
blasdel
I noticed them all over the chinese trade sides about six months ago. I had
this bookmarked from then:
[http://www.tradetang.com/search/index.jsp?keyword=VIBRAM&...](http://www.tradetang.com/search/index.jsp?keyword=VIBRAM&catid=2445&splitcount=20&sort=priceT0&currpage=1&type=0&ttsearch=ttform&rankdom=11&searchform=web&page=2020&browser=search)
— note that 'VIBRAM' is a banned keyword, but the search is still returning
plenty of results fromt he category.

~~~
csmeder
Hmm, I've never actually seen a "chinese trade site". I am guessing this is
what many people use to make money on ebay or shopify account. Do you have
more info about chinese trade sites? A blog you could recommend? Or any info
at all would be interesting.

~~~
blasdel
Yep, that's one of the main purposes of the site I linked to.

Alibaba is by far the biggest player, their ecommerce empire is easily the
third biggest after Amazon and eBay. Their main site is basically for people
outside China to hook up with factory agents to buy stuff wholesale. They also
have a japan-specific version, and a heavily used internal chinese B2B
version. Their <http://taobao.com> is super dominant within China, occupying a
space between Amazon and eBay stores but with even more marketshare, and with
sellers ranging from a kid in a dorm room to multinational corporations. They
also own Yahoo China, the chinese paypal-equivalent, the biggest chinese ad
network, and a salesforce.com-style CRM.

Their equivalent site to TradeTang would be their recently launched
<http://aliexpress.com> that has a full US localization and integrated
cart/payment/shipping/etc. You'll find some weird shit on there, like this
seller: [http://www.aliexpress.com/store/801597/all-wholesale-
product...](http://www.aliexpress.com/store/801597/all-wholesale-
products.html) — page through his catalog to find dried seahorses,
reciprocating drilldoes, folding bikes, giant inflatable water walking balls,
ghillie suits, dried human placentas, cow bezoars, portable titanium stripper
poles…

By far the biggest hassle with using Alibaba is just communicating with the
seller, they hate answering email and if you ask multiple questions they'll
cherry-pick the most superficial one to respond to. The only way to get
anything done is to be up in the middle of the night and get them on MSN
messenger.

~~~
csmeder
> _By far the biggest hassle with using Alibaba is just communicating with the
> seller, they hate answering email and if you ask multiple questions they'll
> cherry-pick the most superficial one to respond to. The only way to get
> anything done is to be up in the middle of the night and get them on MSN
> messenger._

Can you elaborate? Is this only true if you need more detailed info about the
product. If you know the product is what you want will it be rather easy to
order it?

Or is it that Alibaba doesn't have "full US localization and integrated
cart/payment/shipping/etc"

~~~
blasdel
It's the latter — on aliexpress or tradetang or taobao you could just add it
to your cart, checkout, and pay with no haggling. Shipping is often free, as
EMS and Hong Kong Post have normally very low rates. On DealExtreme and many
eBay stores you can order a 99¢ item with free airmail from HK and get it a
few days later.

On Alibaba, you have to talk with the seller for anything to happen. Though
some of them work directly for a factory, many of the sellers are total
freelance agents, and even the ones that work for a factory will act as agents
to resell items from other factories. You can usually suss out how direct a
seller's relationship with the ultimate supplier is, and they'll often tell
you outright, though none of them seem to be willing to talk about each other.
All of the ones I've interacted with have been ~30yo women that seem to be
working solo as agents with other people doing the fulfillment.

The other thing is that they very rarely put up enough information to find out
what the product actually is. Often the product can easily be made-to-order
with finishing options up to you (though the factory does all the product
development). You end up looking at a bunch of agents and looking at pictures,
weights, and options to discern who's reselling what. Occasionally the OEMs
will have product data on their websites and you can backtrack from there.
It's kind of maddening but none of them really give a shit.

Even if you think you know what you're getting, you still want to get spec
sheets from them for confirmation, and spreadsheet catalogs of similar stuff
so you know you aren't missing anything (they don't keep their listings up to
date). Even after that you still have to go back and forth on quantities,
prices, shipping, lead times, options, potential setup fees for
customizations, etc. They do like MSN and pasting stuff into excel documents
to send via direct file transfer. It works ok once you get that far, but it
feels really sketchy.

------
bh23ha
Personal anecdote:

I started running with an ancient pair of shoes. Flat, thin sole, absolutely
no cushioning in it. After quite some time, I bought new running shoes, thick
sole, lots of cushioning.

On my first run with the brand new shoes, I was much faster. MUCH faster. I
got home amazed and thought I should have switched a long time ago, what was I
thinking running in those ancient beat up shoes!

And I thought these new shoes must have a lot of bounce in them. So I jumped
up a bit - nothing, no bounce. So I took them off, and tried to bounce them
again. Still no bounce. They are cushioned, they dampen shock, absorb it, they
are the opposite of bouncy.

Well then I should have been slower, why did I run faster with dampening? I
kept thinking about that, and then the next day my knees were in pain. And
that's when I seriously started researching running and shoes.

And I've pretty well convinced myself barefoot is the way to go. But to avoid
stepping on you name it, look for shoes like the Vibrams, avoid heavy
cushioning.

------
pg
These are one of the more common things we get spam links for on HN.

~~~
seattlejet
What are some of the other things? So we know when we see them...

------
mambodog
This is what the ACTA should have been focused on, instead of trying to stop
people downloading music. It is the _Anti Counterfeiting_ Trade Agreement,
after all.

~~~
barrkel
It's counterfeiting if the consumer is getting fooled. It's something else if
the consumer is aware they're not getting the real deal.

------
camworld
There was a 1991 episode of "Married With Children" where Al Bundy creates
"God's Shoes" which look exactly like these shoes. There is nothing novel or
new about this idea.

~~~
PidGin128
I haven't voted up or down here, but cam is correct. Maybe the tone was a bit
rough?

[http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=129234...](http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=129234&currentpage=2)
(found via images.google.com .)

This site also has an amusing comparison of crocs & vibrams.

------
whyenot
I think ads like this are a great way for Vibram to raise awareness of the
problem with a sense of humor:

image:
[http://birthdayshoes.com/media/blogs/bdayshoes/2010_Photos/m...](http://birthdayshoes.com/media/blogs/bdayshoes/2010_Photos/merrell/vibrammiddletoe640.png)

description: [http://birthdayshoes.com/merrell-barefoot-shoes-partner-
with...](http://birthdayshoes.com/merrell-barefoot-shoes-partner-with-vibram-
slated-for-spring-2011)

I love my VFFs. Vibram deserves to reap the financial rewards for creating a
whole new product category, and doing such a great job with it.

~~~
bmj
I have a friend who works for a running publication (and is a long distance
runner), and she noted that Vibram got kinda lucky with this design. _Born to
Run_ was published after they introduced their shoes. While Vibram's marketing
department certainly did their part, without the book (and associated media),
one wonders if they would be so popular.

As an aside, both my friend and her husband (who sometimes runs barefoot) said
they didn't like the shoes. Since the glove-like fit actually forces the toes
a bit further apart, they prefer lightweight "natural" trainers like these:
<http://tinyurl.com/yagubt5>

~~~
nchlswu
I think saying "Vibram got kinda lucky with their design" is taking away from
what Vibram achieved with this product. It's no different from any new
venture.

I've been interested in barefoot running ever since products like Vivo and
Nike Free began making headways into the market. The article posted makes it
seem like these are competitors introduced after Vibram Five Fingers, but they
were all introduced at roughly the same time.

The barefoot products mentioned were all introduced at a time period where
barefoot running was beginning to gain serious traction. It was excellent
timing for all companies pushing barefoot products. Personally, I think alot
of Vibram's press has to due with their unorthodox design. Nike's barefoot
alternative is a much more traditional shoe design (that I think is more known
for its comfort).

Vibram is popular due to a quality product with some timing that wasn't just
coincidence (they weren't the only company who saw the trend). I think their
"honest" and unorthodox design gave was the real differentiator that made them
that much more popular than the competition

~~~
bmj
I didn't mean to imply that Vibram produced a mediocre product that took off
thanks to a book and a trend. Vibram did do their design homework, and the
shoe itself is well-designed. My point is that without _Born to Run_ and the
"natural" footwear trend, it's unlikely Vibram's product would have the
following it does without that.

------
htsh
I'm curious if anyone knows, how far does Vibram's IP protection go?

It sounds like here these were counterfeit Vibrams (holding themselves out as
real) but can someone else make gloved shoes (with individual toes) or do
these guys have a lockdown on that entire concept?

~~~
scotty79
You can learn about IP protection in different countries here:
[http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/johanna_blakley_lessons_fr...](http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashion_s_free_culture.html)

------
yanowitz
Best way I've found to defunkify my Vibrams is to soak them in Oxyclean (yes,
"as seen on TV" Oxyclean) overnight and then wash them in the washing machine
and air drying.

This is with KSOs. With the Sprints, I've never had an odor problem, but they
can air out more easily.

I suspect that if you had some kind of warm-air (~35C) device (e.g., a heat
gun) to gently blow air through them post workout, one could keep the odor on
KSOs down.

Don't tumble dry them though -- the glue melts.

~~~
philwelch
I think if the glue melts from a simple tumble dry I'm sure as hell not going
to use a _heat gun_ on them.

~~~
yanowitz
Why? A dryer gets far hotter than 35C. I just mean enough warm air moving
through the shoe to dry it quickly. A decent heat gun should give you that
control.

~~~
whyenot
The low setting for a heat gun is somewhere around 350 deg F. A hair dryer on
the lowest setting might work though.

edit: according to Wikipedia, heat guns go from 200-1000 deg F. Still far too
hot. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_gun>

~~~
yanowitz
I was thinking of something like this:
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00004TI29/ref=mp_s_a_10> which goes down to
90F.

------
evo_9
So do they make matching socks? I know this is about 'barefoot' but some of us
know our bodies, and in my case if I actually worked out with these - which
would be cool - I'd pretty much destroy them in a few days from sweating.
Without socks to absorb the moister I'd be concerned about them getting pretty
stinky after heavy use.

Now for a specialty shoe, rock-climbing/boulder comes to mind, yeah these
would be incredible. In fact, I think I'll probably buy a pair for that the
more I think about it. I don't tend to sweat as much climbing.

~~~
edj
I've tried bouldering in a borrowed pair. Edging gets painful fast. Far too
much stress on my toes. Having separated toes and a relatively pliable sole
produces an awful lot of foot strain.

Real climbing shoes are tighter and more rigid. They do just the opposite of
what these barefoot shoes do; they bunch your toes together, forming them into
a kind of single supertoe. It's probably about as bad for you as wearing high-
heels, but it's very effective.

Also, the soles on barefoot shoes are not sticky enough for climbing, so
smearing doesn't work too well.

~~~
avar
I've done rock climbing in both the five fingers and regular rock climbing
shoes. Rock climbing shoes are definitely better 99% of the time, their
rigidity helps you to maintain secure footholds.

There's the occasional exception though, I was once able to gain a foothold in
the five fingers by sticking my big toe in a hole that fit it exactly.

------
atomical
I didn't realize that there were a lot of runners here hacking up the hills. I
have Newtons at home but I didn't like them. They aren't made for the trails I
run either. I might try Zoots soon.

~~~
kajecounterhack
I can't seem to find any real reviews of Newtons...there are so many fanboy
reviews that I wasn't sure if it was worth the money so I never tried them.
Hrm.

~~~
atomical
This is one man's opinion, but I think the way the lugs are placed at the
front of the shoe compact the impact with the ground. I had been running 8-9
miles on average a day. I integrated Newton's into my routine for 1 mile every
day and at the end of the week I was having pain and had to take some time
off.

------
gcheong
I think it says something about the power of culture when fully shod feet,
high-heeled feet, flip-flopped feet, etc., are all acceptable but a gloved
foot is somehow "weird looking".

~~~
jackfoxy
Whenever someone makes fun of my VFFs I say, "Let's do a little investigation.
Put your foot up next to mine. Now, whose shoe is formed more like a human
foot?"

~~~
nooneelse
Whose car looks more like a strong pair of legs?

I like the shoes too, but sometimes the rhetoric used to promote them strikes
me as silly.

------
barrkel
_And this year, a study by Harvard evolutionary biologists published in the
journal Nature concluded that barefoot runners land on the balls of their
feet, rather than on their heels, ultimately creating less joint stress and
reducing injuries._

I don't know how other people do it, but I find it hard _not_ to land on the
balls of my feet when running.

~~~
hakl
I think the secret is long strides with slow cadence.

------
fuzzythinker
I wanted to try them but was surprised that REI in Mountain View & San Jose,
CA did not carry more than 1 (large) size in just 1 model. I know REI has very
good return policy and encourages me to just order online & return if don't
like. But still, I feel like wanting to try them on and see if I like them or
not and which model is best.

------
sliverstorm
I want to get a pair, but I don't think they have a model appropriate for
motorcycling, thus limiting my ability to use them.

~~~
sliverstorm
Does HN have a suggestion of how to make them work for me, when I lead a
lifestyle that requires the wearing of boots everywhere? I am genuinely
interested in them.

