
Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development - adamhowell
http://le.mu.rs/motherfucker/Index/Entries/2010/6/24_What_money_can_buy.html
======
mrshoe
_That’s a little like hearing what Brad Pitt got paid for his last movie and
wondering why the producer didn’t instead hire Brad Pitman for scale.

Oh you’ve never heard of Brad Pitman? You’re not familiar with his work? But
you are familiar with Brad Pitt’s work, right? After all, he’s an experienced
actor and producer with not one, but two, Academy Award nominations and a
portfolio full of household names._

Bzzzt. Horrible analogy. Brad Pitt isn't worth what he's worth because of his
_portfolio_ full of household names. He commands his rates because he _is a
household name_. People will go see movies just because he's in them. He's not
getting paid for talent, experience, or attractiveness. He's getting paid for
his personal brand. That brand all but guarantees that the filmmakers will
earn a handsome return on their investment.

You, however, are an iPhone app developer. App purchasers have never heard of
you. They will not turn out in droves to buy an app just because you worked on
it.

~~~
petercooper
_He commands his rates because he is a household name. [..] You, however, are
an iPhone app developer. App purchasers have never heard of you. They will not
turn out in droves to buy an app just because you worked on it._

I think his conclusion is wrong but the analogy is _good._ It's unnecessary to
be literal with the term "household." Most of the world's top scientists,
lawyers, and bankers aren't household names, yet they can command extremely
high levels of respect and, often, grants or income due to being a "household
name" in their field.

I'm not arguing Mike is a "household name" amongst developers - he's not, IMHO
- but there's no reason why a "household name" developer couldn't get the Brad
Pitt treatment. John Carmack would have his arm bitten off if he were
available at $1000/hr. Is Mike Lee the iPhone equivalent of John Carmack? No.
If he were? His analogy seems OK to me.

~~~
mkramlich
Interesting comparison you made too. Because for me, I respect Carmack a hell
of a lot more than Mike Lee. And I suspect he's a much better programmer as
well. And human being.

~~~
petercooper
I find it more interesting that you're using a blog post to judge the author's
quality as a human being.

~~~
mkramlich
Writing things on the Internet is part of human behavior.

What a person says reveals aspects of who they are. The Internet is not some
special place that is exempt from all normal expectations of conduct that
otherwise hold in meatspace. Just as simply being part of a business
enterprise does not exempt one from being judged as a human based on your
behavior.

Also note I said "suspect" not "knew for certain" or anything as extreme or
decisive as that. Important distinction, and one I chose intentionally when
picking that word. :P :)

~~~
marknutter
_What a person says reveals aspects of who they are._

Indeed

------
andreyf
Wow, he might be good at programming, but from his writing, he sure seems like
a jerk (Zed Shaw's long lost twin?). I've known many professionals who, being
very good at what they do, charge both less and more than $1k/hour, but none
of them would ever mention their rate in public, much less feel the need to
explain why they deserve it.

On the other hand, this is great PR for software engineers: a couple more
posts like this, and I'll be able to double my rate and still seem like a deal
by comparison :)

~~~
Adaptive
Tangential, but I feel compelled to note that:

* I have never met Zed * Like many others I have heard all sorts of stories about him * People are capable of change * In my recent experience Zed has always seemed civil, thoughtful and passionate about code

He may have been a jerk in the past, I can't speak to that, but he seems like
a decent guy now.

Yours, the anti-pigeonholing squad

~~~
andreyf
Err, I meant to make it clear that I'm comparing their public writing style,
not how they are in person.

------
sachinag
To everyone who thinks he's crazy, a single, solitary counter that is in no
way indicative of a trend or a pattern: when it comes time to have someone
build our iPhone app, I know who my first e-mail will be.

You wanna know why? I know his rate without having to fill out a goddamn
"contact me" form and his portfolio signals that he's worth the rate. Now, I
have no idea how many hours it would take to build our app, but you're damn
well sure I'm going to ask him to tell me.

You not making as much? You hurting for clients? Well, maybe you should
publish a rate and have an up-to-date portfolio on your website, not on
Carbonmade or Forrst or Dribbble or wherever the hell the cool kids are these
days.

Cause I'll tell you: I've got cash to burn and I'm in the market for great
developers and designers right now, and they're impossible to find, vet, and
hire.

~~~
silencio
Really? It's that problematic to go talk to someone who'll want to talk to you
about your needs and see what works out for both of you? You'd prefer the guy
with that vague portfolio and a flat published rate instead? I don't publish
my rate (let's just say it's not even half of $1k/hr except in extraordinary
circumstances, like most developers I know consulting on non-specialized
stuff), but I am at no shortage of clients right now. If I could actually
_slow_ my flow of emails from interested individuals, businesses, and
recruiters for consulting and jobs, I'd be so happy...

Anyway, I'm not denying Mike's claim to fame, and other than some of his
nuttier blog posts/tweets he seems like a reasonable guy the few times I've
met him in passing. But I'd want to do a little more research into a person's
background before jumping on the bandwagon and assuming what he's done in the
past is going to help you towards whatever goal you might have. And this is
why I call his portfolio vague. While it might work for the kind of work he's
looking to do right now because his expertise as being part of the teams
behind so many hits is exactly what he's selling, I'm not about to work
with/hire someone as an actual developer (and not just consulting on The Big
Picture of things) without more info on what exactly he did on those apps.
(Though I'm sure if he ever did consider doing that that he'll kindly provide
it to interested parties.)

BTW, his $1k/hr rate blog post was originally about his plans to travel
worldwide and to use limited consulting hours at that rate to help fund it. I
don't think he's the one you're looking for to send your first email to if you
need a talented developer to work longer term. If you are looking for long
term work, @schwa, the guy that wrote that tweet that Mike screenshotted and
included at the top of this blog post, maintains a list of experienced
developers looking for work ([http://toxicsoftware.com/i-wouldnt-hire-an-
iphone-developer-...](http://toxicsoftware.com/i-wouldnt-hire-an-iphone-
developer-who-charges-less-than-999-95hour/)). Big Nerd Ranch, the company
founded by Aaron Hillegass, the person that wrote _the_ book on Cocoa
Programming, also does consulting (<http://www.bignerdranch.com/consulting>).
Iconfactory does UI/design work (<http://iconfactory.com/design>). The list
goes on and on.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
_I don't publish my rate (let's just say it's not even half of $1k/hr except
in extraordinary circumstances, like most developers I know consulting on non-
specialized stuff), but I am at no shortage of clients right now. If I could
actually slow my flow of emails from interested individuals, businesses, and
recruiters for consulting and jobs, I'd be so happy..._

This is a signal from the market that you're not charging enough. What if you
could get fewer emails and calls, work half as much, and make more money?

~~~
silencio
You do have a good point, but as I've learned to raise my rates without
feeling ridiculous about it, I've gotten more and more emails and calls. I
also don't have the balls or the experience to demand a regular $1k/hour rate,
or even half that at this point. I suspect if I had both the courage and the
appropriate experience/knowledge I could demand that and more easily, and
still have the same problem...just with lots more money involved. I have
charged clients close to $1k/hour occasionally during emergencies and with
specialized work, but I can't deal with constant stress from trying to deliver
my idea of what $1k/hr consulting should be, even with fewer hours. I usually
don't have the experience or knowledge to do so :)

Interestingly enough, most of the criticism I've read about Mike and this
whole thing from other iPhone devs and such is not focusing around the rate.
They're more focused on whether or not he'd actually be able to deliver
something worth justifying that rate. Alas, that question will only be
answered by whether or not Mike is successful in securing enough hours with
clients that will pay that.

------
petercooper
Even if he doesn't get $1000/hr in the end, his statement is likely to be
already doing some work in the form of _anchoring_. That is, $1000/hr seems
ridiculous but you might now, as a client, feel like $250/hr isn't
ridiculous.. yet if he'd said $250/hr at the start, that would have also
seemed as crazy as $1000.

This effect of price anchoring has been demonstrated a lot and it works,
sadly.

~~~
pmcginn
That's a great point, and makes even more sense when you consider the examples
he provides for why someone should contact him for an hour of his time. If he
can really do everything he listed in one hour per task, he deserves the
$1,000. On the other hand, if he spends 2-4 hours on it but "only" bills the
client for 1, he seems like both a rockstar and a value.

------
dasil003
He's claiming his role in Tap Tap Revenge as justifying that rate. If all you
know about his role at Tapulous is what's been written at TechCrunch that
probably sounds impressive. Of course if you know some of the guys there who
don't have a soapbox and a sycophantic following that's a pretty hilarious
opener.

~~~
marciovm123
can you elaborate?

~~~
dasil003
I'm not involved with Tapulous and therefore I'm not really at liberty to say.
Actually I probably should have kept my mouth shut on this thread, because I
despise when people do what I just did, but I just could not sit by while that
credential got thrown out there as if Tap Tap Revenge was his brainchild or
something.

~~~
dillydally
I don't know anyone inside Tapulous personally, so this is pure hearsay. Take
it as you will.

What I've heard is Mike thought Tap Tap was too low brow and that by focusing
on that app to the exclusion of their other apps at the time (Twitterific and
FriendBook) they were betraying his vision for the company.

After he expressed his opinion about this he was asked to leave.

~~~
hboon
Did you mean Tweetsville or really, Twitterrific?

~~~
dillydally
Sorry I meant Twinkle. Whatever Tapulous' Twitter client was.

------
quan
The "motherfucker" page doesn't load, maybe I can help him with some web
development at only $1,000/hr

~~~
code_duck
He clearly could benefit from my CSS consultation, offered at only $200 an
hour.

------
klochner
I'm guessing this is more of a flat fee structure, and he's optimistically
expecting it to work out to $1k/hour.

    
    
       You can write to my former coworkers in Apple’s 
       Developer Technical Support, and they will point you 
       toward a solution within three days. Or you can just 
       call me and have it ready to resubmit by morning.
    

. . . so what happens if it's _not_ ready by morning?

Is there a scenario where I'm dinged for $24k in a day while he's mainlining
coffee & trying to debug my app?

------
vessenes
One day, Mr. Lee is going to feel deeply embarrassed that he wrote, and
published that piece.

Until then, I imagine he's going to get four or five clients a year, bill them
50,000 each, and laugh his way around Costa Rica.

------
male_salmon
Neil Gaiman also took a lot of flack when it was revealed how much he charged
for speaking engagements. But when he explained his reasoning, I came to see
how his high fee rate was justified.

[http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2010/05/political-football-
in-...](http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2010/05/political-football-in-
teacup.html)

Similarly, if Mike is entertaining a lot of contracting requests, a surefire
way to filter out the wheat from the chaff is to set a high contracting fee
rate.

------
_delirium
I'd be curious if he actually _can_ charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development.
It sounds like it's deliberately less than his time-filling rate: he doesn't
get fully booked weeks at that rate. In fact he seems to imply that his
schedule is _so_ empty that he's likely to be free on any given day to start
working on a new project immediately. That's certainly a reasonable strategy,
since sometimes the money-maximizing rate is not the same as the one that
fills your schedule. But, how empty exactly is his schedule? Are we talking 10
hours/wk billed on average? Or are we talking no work most weeks, with the
occasional job every few months?

~~~
xenophanes
Working 10 hrs a week at 1k/hr would be awesome. Saving time is better than
maximizing money.

~~~
_delirium
Sure, but that's the part I'm wondering about. 10 hrs/wk at $1k/hr would be
great (~$500k/yr for part-time work!), but, say, 1hr/wk on average wouldn't be
too good, even at that rate. And I read his post as having an undercurrent of
being more, "I'm trying to convince you paying me $1k/hr is a good idea"
rather than "there are actually a lot of people already paying me $1k/hr". Has
he gotten dozens of contracts at that rate? A few? One?

~~~
moe
_A few? One?_

I'd venture the guess the number is very small or perhaps even zero.

At that rate he'd burn through a reasonable budget for an iPhone app within
weeks. And I mean the entire budget, which would normally include graphics
design and backend work.

I have no doubts he could get an app off the ground faster than most teams -
given he lives up to his bold claims, which is entirely possible.

But as with every software project that's only a very small part of the story.
The elephant in the room is maintenance and ongoing development.

If you have $500k and were to launch a business around an iPhone app what
would you rather do? Give most of that money to a single person, get your app
in 8 weeks and call it a day?

Or would you rather hire a team, pay significantly less for the initial
launch, get it in perhaps 16 weeks, but then still have money in the bank
_and_ a committed team for further steps?

Hiring this guy at that rate just seems like a bad business decision for
pretty much any project. If anyone does then, well, kudos to him for parting
the dumb from their money.

~~~
xenophanes
I don't think you're supposed to hire him to build a whole app.

You hire him to give advice for an hour or two so you get pointed in the right
direction, or review some code, or fix one bug your team is stuck on, or he
can help you find the right cheaper person to hire.

~~~
loboman
He should say he's offering iPhone consultancy then.

~~~
JoachimSchipper
The list of options he offers _does_ look like consultancy.

~~~
moe
iPhone consultancy can be had for much cheaper, though.

I have worked with contractors from eastern europe that work an entire week
for the amount he asks for an hour. And despite the cliches their performance
was absolutely okay. Not mindblowing, but as solid as it gets within the
constraints of the iPhone platform. It's not exactly rocket science.

I'm entirely okay with people charging what they're worth. But I don't believe
someone can be worth an order of magnitude above average in iPhone-land.

~~~
JoachimSchipper
Well, "charging what the market will bear". And why couldn't he be an order of
magnitude above average? The "good coders are ten times as productive" meme is
alive and well on HN.

(Note that "ten times as productive" depends a lot on what you are doing. I
concur that one of these "wrap an RSS feed" apps probably does not
significantly benefit from hiring a truly excellent coder versus a competent
one.)

------
mikecane
I don't know him, so I can only go by what he wrote there. So all I see are
two things he cites as accomplishments, yet with that, he is nearly
guaranteeing a hit. I don't know of anyone -- writer, filmmaker, etc -- who'd
base any sort of track record on just two outings. Hell, even Spielberg had a
bomb when he was hot: 1941.

Here is Steve Jobs on designer Paul Rand, who Jobs wooed from IBM to have him
design the NeXT logo: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb8idEf-Iak>

So ask yourself, would Steve Jobs think the guy who wrote this post was worth
the money he was asking?

~~~
herdrick
Oh man, thanks for that link. Submitted:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1463114>

------
nir
Seems to me the promise here isn't just "I'll build you a great app" but "I'll
get your app in the Apple Store" (hence mentions of the author's positive
record and connections with Apple) - in essence, it's a combination of a
lobbyist/developer, and lobbyists do charge $1000/hr.

Apple has an approval process reminiscent of a third world beaurocracy,
decisions are unpredictable, timelines unknown and the entire process is
completely opaque to the outsider. Around such systems you often find people
with good connections offering their services in ensuring proper treatment,
for a handsome fee.

------
ryanjmo
It also sounds like he can convince you that if you don't go with him you are
going to have problems and then you are going to have to hire him eventually
anyway. Being able to convince people not to look around at other options is a
very good way to drive your price up.

I'm surprised he didn't make that point in the article; it certainly is
related to why he can charge so much...

------
kevinpet
If the best are 10x as productive as the mediocre, I don't see a problem with
this. Of course, you might say that the $120 bulk of freelance programmers are
already a notch above mediocre and maybe $500/hr is more reasonable, but
whatever the market will bear.

It's a good argument to cut top marginal tax rate so that he has an incentive
to take more work than he's willing to at $500/hr after taxes (assuming he's
in the US).

~~~
rortian
Marginal tax rates being high is a great idea. I'd be with you if people with
high salaries spent all, or virtually all, of their salary. But they don't.

In this economy we need more money being spent. When things are doing well
again, you could try to make a case for the rich being richer, but it's a
strange cause to take up.

~~~
xenophanes
> In this economy we need more money being spent.

Economic _activity_ is not economic _productivity_. Spending money doesn't
make us richer. Producing does.

Encouraging people to work more would help the economy; encouraging to people
to spend more would only help to the extent that it stimulates people to
produce stuff for sale.

~~~
rbranson
Actually, you are both wrong. Production and consumption by themselves do not
yield productivity. Both producers and consumers play equal roles in economic
productivity. Without active consumption, producers would be completely
unproductive, regardless of efficiency. Productivity comes when people are
able to increase their economic leverage through efficiencies, but also able
to complete transactions in the market. For instance, despite all of the hate
of partial-reserve fiat banking systems by pseudo-economists, they are
extremely efficient at getting the most productive value out of the money
supply. This is also why the Internet creates economic value, because it's
able to more efficiently pair producers and consumers.

~~~
rortian
I'm down with what you suggest. The problem with the economy now though is
that we have excess capacity. I'm down with going around and blow up factories
to solve this (only kidding fbi) but I think it would be easier if we could
stimulate demand.

>This is also why the Internet creates economic value, because it's able to
more efficiently pair producers and consumers.

I would say that is one reason why but I whole heartily agree.

------
pwim
He isn't talking about charging $1,000/hr for coding. Rather, he is doing
technical consulting. This means he should be able to deliver high value in a
short time, and he'll only ever bill clients a couple hours at a time.

------
aymeric
I think this guy can have a positive impact on our industry if he reports back
in a month or two and tell the world that he actually worked at that rate. The
value of IT consultants could be perceive differently.

------
angrycoder
Say what you want about his ego, but this article will stick.

When some biz guy or PM has his back against the wall with a horrible, failing
project that just won't work, calling in the 1k an hour iPhone guy won't sound
like a bad idea.

~~~
statictype
Assuming 1K per hour iPhone guy is willing to take on your failing horrible
project.... which of course he may since 1k per hour iPhone guy probably
doesn't get a lot of contracts anyway... :)

------
nolane
The Dunning–Kruger effect at work.

~~~
ramchip
You can say a lot of things about the guy, but I don't think you can call him
incompetent without at least a little justification.

I think the Dunning–Kruger effect/paper is one the most abusively reposted
things on HN and Reddit.

~~~
JohnnyBrown
The Dunning-Kruger effect: If you aren't practicing it, start.

------
davisml
This is coming from the dude who used to work for free and live in Wil
Shipley's basement? Wow.

~~~
davisml
<http://blog.wearesakuzaku.com/lunch-with-you-mike-lee/>

------
fjh
Does anyone here really know if the author is serious? I honestly can't tell,
having never heard of this guy, if this is an instance of Poe's Law or Stephen
Wolfram-style megalomania (well, at least Wolfram has more to show than "not
one, but two number one titles on the App Store").

------
ary
gracious |ˈgrā sh əs|

adjective

1 courteous, kind, and pleasant : smiling and gracious in defeat.

* pleasantly indulgent, esp. toward an inferior.

* elegant and tasteful, esp. as exhibiting wealth or high social status

------
mcantelon
I'd like to hear from him in a month or so how it worked out.

------
koeselitz
I'm pretty sure the real drawback of coding for $1000 an hour is you're never
actually allowed to shut up it.

------
alanthonyc
tldr: Mike Lee is the Brad Pitt of programmers. :/

~~~
mkramlich
Not to diss your comment, because I don't intend that, but it got me to
thinking. I hereby propose we all stop using this "tldr" or "TL;DR" meme that
keeps popping up on every other web posting lately because it's an
unnecessarily opaque code, and not very readable, in my opinion.

Instead, how about instead we start doing something like this:

summary: <whatever>

~~~
corin_
tldr: stop using tldr

------
10ren
Of course he can charge $1,000/hr.

So can I, or so can any man; but will clients come when he advertises it?

------
elbrodeur
Interesting approach to customer acquisition. After taxes he'd be sitting on
just over a million a year without working much more than 40 hours a week.

But maybe his pricing is predicated on the desire to not work 40 hour weeks?

~~~
mkramlich
I'm guessing the latter. You sort of win either way with that approach:

1\. seek $1000/hour and actually end up billing 40+ hrs/week at that rate: WIN
all the way to the bank

2\. seek $1000/hour, but then end up billing a few hours/month at that rate:
still WIN because you can cover your cost of living _and_ still have lots of
free time and energy for other things

------
inmygarage
simple supply and demand issue that he's taking advantage of. the iphone is a
fairly new platform and i'd say the number of true "platform experts" is very
small so _anything_ you can point to that differentiates is a reason to charge
a crapton. haven't you seen all those crappy corporate apps? some companies
will pay for a track record, and good for them/him.

------
cool-RR
Can someone please explain why when I zoom in with Chrome on this page the
text size remains the same? I've never seen anything like it.

------
khangtoh
It's not about how much you can or will charge, it's about how much you've
actually sold.

------
jayruy
"im so great at coding because i've spent so little of my life doing it! that
makes me better, qed"

huh?

~~~
kevinskii
I don't think he's claiming to be a great coder, but rather a great app
designer. And he's right, life experience can come in handy in that area.

~~~
jayruy
i consider myself more right-brain leaning than many in this field, but i
still consider this nonsense. wtf does, for example, knocking about on foreign
adventures have anything to do with making a great app? ok great,
resourcefulness, but show me something relevant if you want $1k an hour

if he has some experience other than coding that makes him so fit, he should
mention it, but this is pure bravado, and that doesn't sit well with me

------
filosofo
Slightly O/T, but can someone explain why with JavaScript disabled this blog
post is completely invisible?

I can't see any technical reason or understand why one would penalize NoScript
users (like me).

------
food
what a douche

------
ahoyhere
Well, aren't we a feisty bucket of crabs. (patio11 brought up this metaphor -
and it's perfect.)

People, if you're here on HN, you spend a lot of time devoted to reading about
the importance of confidence. That it's the entrepreneur's stock in trade.
Hell, maybe you even write your own blog posts about the importance of
confidence & post them here, hoping for attention.

But what do you do when the chips are down and you come across somebody who
truly embodies them? Clatter your claws and try to pull them back in:

"HA HA" "Oh so he's like Brad Pitt now?" "Wow, 2 app store hits, whatever"
"Hope he likes having no clients!" "I would never hire him" "DOUCHE!" "What a
jerk" "I'm gonna judge him just by this essay and assume that he has none of
the actual qualifications or experience he mentions"

The power of belief-action congruity at work. Or not.

If you want to be successful, and you believe having confidence is part of
that, then you better figure out of your words and your deeds line up. Because
if they don't, you are never going to get what _you_ want.

Now, I've never charged $1k/hr... but almost. And if you return true business
value, that is totally a reasonable number. Remember - it's all about the
value returned. That's another HN belief, isn't it?

When I returned to consulting after two years in traditional employment, after
many years of lackluster freelancing, I raised my rates from $80 to $200 to
$250 to $300 to $400 and beyond. My last project came damn close to $1k/hr
after all said & done.

And you know what? My clients loved it. They kept coming back for more. They
loved my work and thought the prices were reasonable, because there's nobody
out there doing what I do in that price point.

(My only true competition in that space was Stamen - a mid-sized agency
compared to little old me and my husband, an intimate 2-person team. Who
competes with Mike Lee on what he offers in that blog post?)

I would keep raising my rates and I would have started talking about it, too,
except that I don't want to consult any more. The more you charge, the more
people need you, the harder it is to say no to projects that promise to put a
quick $40k in your pocket.

The moral of the story is: most freelancers are lazy, unprofessional, with
their interests completely divided, and have little to no real-life experience
to back up their years spent coding in the basement. They undercharge, take on
too much, and then produce merely mediocre work. They have no true value
proposition other than a body that types the special arcane symbols, and asks
the client the occasional question. They have no connections.

Believe it or not, there are many companies out there who will gladly pay for
an experience that is entirely the opposite of that.

------
sharpn
There are no testimonials on his website. Just saying.

~~~
danudey
He worked for Delicious Monster and Tapulous, well-known names in the
Mac/iPhone dev community. Also, Apple hired him to build their Mobile Store
app, which is pretty significant because I'm sure they have a lot of talented
developers already.

~~~
silencio
He was already working for Apple before moving teams internally, probably
because his DTS job wasn't working out or the perks of switching were too
great, i.e. he started at DTS a year ago, and before that year was up he
switched teams and then presumably quit altogether. He wasn't hired by Apple
expressly to come impart his wisdom onto the team working on the app.

------
sbierwagen
I like how I have to allow his domain in NoScript just to see the _page text._
Not that the site actually _does_ anything in javascript, as far as I can
tell, besides pointlessly slow down page rendering.

