
Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders - pmoriarty
https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2019/05/goals-perseverance
======
avindroth
But what are you sacrificing in return for your “perseverance”?

Very few people tend to look at the mind as a system, and also seem to ignore
that depression, anxiety, panic disorders, etc. happen for a reason. The
reason why modern humanity have increased risk of these symptoms is because
they know, given their perhaps wrongly learned models of the world or
otherwise, that even when they achieve their so-called life goals, that they
wouldn’t achieve philosophical nor psychological satisfaction that they seek.
Their mind has predicted the conclusion of their efforts, and the conclusion
lies far below what they seek. Thus the mind desperately attempts to re-
understand, re-configure, and re-model the world to achieve its goals.

But instead what is espoused by modern psychology and self-help is a kind of
blind optimism or a horse blinders kind of approach to tending one’s mind.
Most types of meditative studies also force this notion of blindness.
Depression and anxiety and other “disorders” (whose classification from its
onset is very unhelpful for its ideological integration into society as a
valid problem to work through) most often happen to those who are sensitive,
those who have surprisingly extensive models of the world, etc.

But it has become very fashionable in SV intelligentsia and the communities
that drink the intelligence soup that trickles down from the SV community
(like other cities of America or other America-directed tech communities) to
treat the mind as a dumb system that did a poor job evolving to a modern
environment (e.g. rationality movement). Instead of understanding the mind
(and consequently the body) as a system and listening to whatever small traces
your mind has left in its great attempt to solve really important problems for
you, we just blind ourselves to faux goals that we may not even actually want.

Optimization for optimization’s sake is bad, but goal-seeking for goal-
seeking’s sake may be a significantly worse and dangerous meme.

~~~
deerpig
I disagree, perseverance is not the same as goal-seeking for goal seeking's
sake, or at least, it doesn't have to be.

Twenty years ago I set a thirty year goal, literally bet my life on it. It
wasn't until two years ago that I was reasonably sure it had a chance of
success. I had to, and continue to basically give up everything, no one funds
very long term research, so I had to learn to live on less than $200 a month.
No healthcare, not being able to buy a new pair of glasses, only being able to
buy clothes once a year or so. But I found a university who believed in my
work, gave me an office and a flat on campus outside of Phnom Penh and the
freedom to follow the project wherever it went. No salary, but it's been
enough.

Perseverance is what keeps you sane, gets you up in the morning. It gets you
through whatever is thrown at you. I have not had a happy or easy life, but it
has been a life full of purpose. I have seen and done things that most people
couldn't imagine, that has been, many times, too weird to be believable even
as fiction.

Perseverance is a skill you practice every day for the rest of your life. But
there are many small compensations. You find kindness and beauty and from time
to time pleasure in unexpected places along the way.

With the university's help we will go to press with the first volume later
this year, with a volume every year or so until it's finished on or about
2030. No one would willingly choose such a life, you fall into such things,
and I was one of the stupid one's who took on such a ridiculously ambitious
challenge. With a little luck I will live to see it through to the end.

So for some, purpose and perseverance, trump happiness and comfort and
security. Though I admit I am likely and edge case.

I must say though, my wife and I sure as shit would like to live on a little
more than $200 a month. :)

~~~
circlefavshape
> I have seen and done things that most people couldn't imagine, that has
> been, many times, too weird to be believable even as fiction.

What? I'm _really_ curious now. What is the project? What was the goal? Don't
leave us hanging!

~~~
tasogare
Curious too. 30 years project with one printed volume a years looks like an
encyclopedia.

@deerpig you could set up a Patreon or some sort of crowd funding. If a few
people interested in your project give you few bucks here and there, it could
have a big impact on your income.

~~~
lioeters
I did some digging. He's the founder of the Chenla Institute, Center for
Distributed Civilization. Also launching/launched Chenla FabLab.

His comment history suggests he's old-school, been around the block (China,
Japan, Cambodia), has done work for SGI, and has an "Infinite Reality" machine
at work (which is described as a "graphics supercomputer").

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfiniteReality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfiniteReality)

------
podgaj
I do not know how many people here have "Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders"
but I am on disability for all three and it runs in my family on my mother's
side.

So what is this article saying? Me and my family just do not have
perseverance? That we lack the "will" not to be depressed and anxious? That I
just need to "Aspir[e] toward personal and career goals"? HA!

No, it's not true. You see, they found we all have a genetic disorder (GCH1
Deficiency). After I yelled at my doctors for years to look more deeply they
finally found that it was not that I did not have goals, but that I needed a
low protein diet and some medications that a psychiatrist could not give me,
and now I am doing better. Now I can have goals.

So while this article might be true for some people with situational
depression, I hate these studies because people always said crap like this to
me. I was "lazy" and just needed a hobby, and on and on. They psychiatric
association does not recognize, still, that mood disorders can be caused by
metabolic issues. When they say I do not have enough serotonin and I ask them
why they looked at me like they were in Psych 101. And these articles make
psychiatrists lazy, putting all the effort on the patient while they sit back
and collect check after check.

~~~
gfodor
I empathize with your frustration, but you're letting your personal experience
override logic.

You've made a simple logical error: a study claiming that people who have
goals can fend off depression does not imply that those with depression have
it because they do not have goals. It means that some people who don't have
goals, but do have depression, may remedy it by getting goals. But not
everyone.

If the research above is resulting in psychiatrists becoming lazy, it's
because they're making the same logical error you are making. So in that
sense, you should avoid doing so, since the kind of error you are making is
the very thing which leads to the behavior you've experienced.

The proper response (by you, and psychiatrists) is to conclude that trying to
encourage goal formation in those with depression seems wise, and will help
some, but many (like yourself) will not benefit. Nor should we invert
causation and assume the reason people have depression is due to lack of
goals, much like if we determined that eating a specific kind of food helped
prevent cancer meant that those who for whatever reason didn't have that food
in their diet were somehow causing their own cancer by neglecting to eat it.

~~~
podgaj
That was my point. This study tells us nothing. The problem is not with people
or the doctors, it is with these idiotic studies.

From the study: "People who showed more goal persistence and optimism during
the first assessment in the mid-1990s had greater reductions in depression,
anxiety and panic disorders across the 18 years, according to the authors.

And throughout those years, people who began with fewer mental health problems
showed more increased perseverance toward life goals and were better at
focusing on the positive side of unfortunate events, said Zainal."

and they conclude with your inverted causation:

"Our findings suggest that people can improve their mental health by raising
or maintaining high levels of tenacity, resilience and optimism,” she said.
“Aspiring toward personal and career goals can make people feel like their
lives have meaning. On the other hand, disengaging from striving toward those
aims or having a cynical attitude can have high mental health costs.”

So people who are not depressed do not easily get depressed. Really? That is
the ground breaking work? Re read that part, again and again, and tell me
where my logic is wrong. They are saying correlation is causal.

~~~
saas_sam
What do you think is more reasonable, that your emotional commitments to this
subject are distorting your read of the article, or that the American
Psychological Association knows less than you do?

~~~
podgaj
Appeal to authority much?

I just told you they were wrong about me during my 30 years of treatment. They
thought I had a mood disorder but I had a metabolic disorder. so in this case,
yes, they knew less than I did.

~~~
cpncrunch
Your condition only affects 1 in 500,000 to 1 in 1 million newborns, whereas
major depression has a 20% lifetime prevalence in the USA. For anxiety
disorders, the rate is 30%.

~~~
podgaj
Why do you think you know so much about something you have just heard about?

I have PARTIAL GCH1 deficiency. This affects a lot more people since it is not
detected at birth.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2679294/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2679294/)

And I am in no way blaming all mood disorders on this gene change.

~~~
cpncrunch
Why do you have to be so rude? You didn't mention anything about PARTIAL GCH1
deficiency, and the ref you give is a from a single patient. The condition
discussed in the article (DRD) affects one in a million people according to
the NIH.

------
sfgweilr4f
There's a ship. It has no captain, no crew. Where is it going?

There's another ship. It has a captain and crew but no destination is set.
Where is it going?

There's another ship. It has captain, crew, destination but no course is set.
Where is it going?

There's another ship. It has captain, crew, destination and a course set.
Everyone is ready to go and intends to go. Where is it going?

Only one of these ships will set sail, leave the harbor, reach a set of map
points, follow that course and arrive at its destination. Regardless of being
driven off course due to bad weather or other circumstance, only one has a
real chance.

"Perseverance cultivates a sense of purposefulness that can create resilience
against or decrease current levels of major depressive disorders..."

Sort of. Purpose means perseverance is useful. Lack of purpose means
perseverance, resilience or even the least effort can be wasted.

~~~
nickff
"If one does not know to which port they are sailing, no wind is favorable"
-Seneca

~~~
elSidCampeador
I mean one can paraphrase Lewis Carroll as a response to that - If you don't
know where you are going, any road will get you there.

------
eric4smith
Yes to this. I often counsel my younger friends to have a "mission". Then once
that is completed, to find another one. In fact, one can have multiple
missions running at the same time.

It's rarely said that marriage, kids, job, degree, a house, car, and most
physical things are not missions. And in fact, most of these things -- unless
accompanied by a "why am i doing this" and attendant missions/goals do not
lead to happiness.

Marriage without goals = divorce. Kids without mission = abandonment. Money
without a plan = poverty. Degree without a plan = debt/sadness. Relationship
without a mission = break up. Programming without a mission = abandoned code.

~~~
CGamesPlay
Maybe this is a bit semantic, because in general I agree with you, but:

> It's rarely said that marriage, kids, job, degree, a house, car, and most
> physical things are not missions.

No, they are missions. Anyone without them who wants them views each of these
as a major milestone in their life. However, like you said, you need to find
another mission after completing these.

These things are kind of a like a "life plan starter pack", to give you a
framework for what many people view as a set of good missions for your life.
But many unhappy people who have these things have failed to continue to
pursue missions after attaining them. I think this is why it's easy (but
wrong) to say that they "aren't missions".

~~~
mrslave
I remember an interview with a very wealthy person. While describing his young
adulthood he mentioned having the goal of buying his first luxury watch (think
$10k equivalent today).

Now I don't like the if-you're-not-a-billionaire-then-your-entirely-incomplete
subtext of motivation/self-improvement culture, but this man spoke honestly
about having a goal to acquire something luxurious for himself, and the work
ethic it instilled in his younger self.

I suppose the point is there is a huge different between life goals (even
material ones) and retail therapy.

Getting married (as in, finding someone you want to marry and making it
happen) is a mission. Perhaps becoming a parent is for many. Striving to be a
good parent is definitely a mission.

------
JamesBarney
“Our findings suggest that people can improve their mental health by raising
or maintaining high levels of tenacity, resilience and optimism,” she said.
“Aspiring toward personal and career goals can make people feel like their
lives have meaning. On the other hand, disengaging from striving toward those
aims or having a cynical attitude can have high mental health costs.”

No they don't. Your findings suggest that people who have more perseverance
have reduced risk of depression and anxiety later in life. Additional research
would be needed to prove that "we can increase perseverance by aspiring
towards goals", and that "increasing perseverance reduces that individuals
risk of anxiety and depression". And I would be very surprised if both of
these are true.

~~~
mirimir
Yes, correlation <> causality.

~~~
anbende
In general, you're right of course.

The article in question used a lagged design, using temporally prior markers
to predict later change. This is not fully causal, but it's not fully
correlative either. In the field, it's consider to provide preliminary causal
evidence. Still needs additional research to be sure.

~~~
JamesBarney
It's better than straight correlation, but given the historical track records
of these studies turning into a reproducible intervention of clinical
significance I'd say the chances are low. The article event mentions this with

> Unlike in previous research, Zainal and Newman did not find that self-
> mastery, or feeling in control of one’s fate, had an effect on the mental
> health of participants across the 18-year period.

------
kissgyorgy
> People who showed more goal persistence and optimism... had greater
> reductions in depression ...

Isn't a big part of depression is pessimism? I feel like this sentence is the
same as saying "People who showed no signs of depression ... had greater
reductions in depression"

~~~
vmchale
The paper says its a bidirectional association.

------
cmehdy
I couldn't find the actual paper with this press release, even when searching
on the website itself (which ended up just returning blank pages to me for
some reason). I found more info through another website[0]. At least this
helps me, in principle, rule out the idea that they could have been mixing
correlation and causation.

The one thing that surprises me is that they quickly go on to conclude that
therapies should focus on what they studied. Quote: "Treatments for MDD, GAD,
and PD should attempt to enhance perseverance and optimism."

A predictor isn't necessarily an actuator. I think that a few steps are
skipped if a predictor is immediately used as a tool to correct an issue
rather than to primarily track it. They would need to do a separate study to
know IF one possible new treatment can come out of training in "goal
persistence".

There are other ways to think about the results. For example, some of the
criteria to diagnose a Major Depressive Disorder could be refined thanks to
this kind of research. If a sort of "goal" or "persistence" assessment is
tracked, the intensity of the disorder might be better perceived, which in
turn could mean that therapists and psychiatrists could work towards more
fitting treatment amongst what is already researched and known.

In any case, as someone with a fairly intense mix of two of the disorders in
this study, I am always happy to see some research come out (especially when n
>> 3 undergrads who were passing by).

[0]
[https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fabn0000428](https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fabn0000428)

~~~
aspenmayer
I missed it on the first read too: it’s at the very top where it says

 _Read the journal article_

Something about the format or style of that part of the page made my mind
assume it was a link to a related page and my eyes just skipped right over it.
I have included the link for you below.

[https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/abn-
abn0000428.pd...](https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/abn-
abn0000428.pdf)

~~~
cmehdy
Thank you! I'll take a better look at the whole thing now. It seems like that
journal works with a focus on empirical data but empirical doesn't necessarily
mean robust statistical methods, however the paper seems to be actually
serious about this.

------
stared
...until it fails. I am a person who's perseverance towards my life goals
caused depression, anxiety, and panic disorders. And almost my life.

I wanted to become a top scientist. Yet, the academic path is full of
disillusionment (mainly with the system). Perseverance gave me the power to go
through sacrifices one after another and to carry on. However, only after I
let it go (and turning to data science / deep learning), I became much happier
and emotionally stable. (A longer version here:
[https://p.migdal.pl/2015/12/14/sci-to-data-
sci.html](https://p.migdal.pl/2015/12/14/sci-to-data-sci.html))

"Perseverance is good" is a dangerous survival bias fallacy.

~~~
codeknight11
Is that your blog? Thanks for sharing your perspective

------
softwaredoug
The problem seems to be finding worthwhile and realistic goals that are worth
persevering for. And frankly I get depressed and anxious just thinking about
that.

(Edit not at all being flip, How to spend my limited time creates a lot of
anxiety and depression. I doubt I’m alone)

------
GaylordTuring
Or the act of fending off depression, anxiety, and panic disorders can
positively influence perseverance toward life goals. That’s a just as valid
conclusion from the data.

~~~
johnfn
Yeah, absolutely.

> participants were asked to rate their goal persistence (e.g., “When I
> encounter problems, I don’t give up until I solve them”), self-mastery
> (e.g., “I can do just anything I really set my mind to”) and positive
> reappraisal (e.g., “I can find something positive, even in the worst
> situations”). Diagnoses for major depressive, anxiety and panic disorders
> were also collected at each interval.

> People who showed more goal persistence and optimism during the first
> assessment in the mid-1990s had greater reductions in depression, anxiety
> and panic disorders across the 18 years, according to the authors.

Not only is your conclusion a valid one from the data, I'd say that it should
very well by the default conclusion. Answering low on their goal-persistence
questions would be obvious flags for being depressed.

Especially because there's no casual link that can be established, the most I
could say from reading this article is that if you aren't interested in
pursuing goals, you may be depressed.

~~~
qppo
I think causal links are hard to come by in any science, but here the
important tidbit is that particular emotions (perseverance towards ones goals)
were correlated with less incidence or severity of disorders, compared to
others (a feeling of control of ones environment/future).

The value here is that showing the existence of an emotion earlier in ones
life is correlated to lessening of symptoms later is that it helps therapists
know which emotions and behaviors to target during long term treatment like
cognitive/behavioral therapy.

At least that's how I read it, I'm not a professional

~~~
kayodelycaon
Or it could be that mental disorders compromise the ability to have
perseverance. Given what we know about mental illness, this is the more
likely.

------
viburnum
This is like the grit discourse, just blaming people for not trying hard
enough.

~~~
kayodelycaon
People that have overcome difficulty can end up lacking empathy for those who
haven’t.

“I got here, you didn’t. Therefore, you must not have tried hard enough.”

Hear it every day.

------
insickness
This is the point of Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. If you try to
be happy, you will likely fail. But if instead, you try to give your life
meaning and purpose, you will more likely find happiness orthogonally.

------
cJ0th
While most here see some merit in such research - or at least in debating it,
to me it seems utterly meaningless.

These papers seem like mere artefacts of the researcher's mind. At best,
_they_ learn a lot by (re)defining the problem, looking into different methods
for testing their hypothesis ...

Personally, I never understood how mental unease can be tackled on the verbal
level. Even if your definition of "perseverance", for instance, appears very
succinct - there is no way it will mean the same to me in a couple of days,
months or even years.

In fact, because of this I constantly have to redefine my mental models to
minimize the time I stay passive/goal-less. This may not sound so bad, but it
is emotionally rather taxing and I still spend a lot of time down in the
dumps.

~~~
tus88
> While most here see some merit in such research - or at least in debating
> it, to me it seems utterly meaningless

Psychology in a nutshell.

------
bmitc
In another article, "Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders Can Fend Off
Perseverance Toward Life Goals".

Unfortunately, I find this article seems to be supporting the ol' "pull
yourself up by the bootstraps" method of treating mental disorders. What were
the other aspects of the study? Were medications monitored? What level of
therapy was being given? I don't see anything in the article that suggests it
couldn't have been the case that those that improved in their battle with
mental disorders had also been under the effect of successful medication and
therapy and thus their perseverance toward or even identification of life
goals was made possible through that.

~~~
vmchale
> In another article, "Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders Can Fend Off
> Perseverance Toward Life Goals".

Especially since the article said it was bidirectional :p

------
Zelphyr
While I'm not a psychologist my reading of that seems to confirm one of the
aspects of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) which is to clarify ones
values and work towards them.

For example; it might be one's goal to travel to another country but they are
afraid of flying. Traveling is a goal/value thus they would work towards
accepting the presence and sensations of the fear of flying in order to
achieve that goal. That's a greatly simplified description of ACT but you get
the gist.

~~~
maybelsyrup
I'm a therapist, and I'm also an ACT practitioner. You're on the money here,
though I'd encourage you to think even bigger. To use your example about
travel: extend it further. In ACT, goals and values couldn't be more
different, and we spend a lot of time helping patients distinguish between the
two. "Traveling" is a goal - the value would be found in "why travel?", what
does it get you?

If the answer to that is then something like "it gets me a sense of
adventure", then the "value" (as defined in ACT, anyway) might be just that:
you want to live adventurously, and traveling is a "goal" that you believe, at
least for now, can bring you a little bit of that. In fact, one of my favorite
ACT exercises is finding _adverbs_ that fit these ideas, because adverbs
cannot be "attained" like goals can. That's the whole problem with goals, in
fact, that leads indirectly to a lot of pain: goals can be attained.

ACT is lovely, but I'm biased. If you have any questions please ask!

~~~
maybelsyrup
To both of you who replied: yes, I absolutely use these things in my own life.
Before I say some of mine, it's important to allow these things to be mutable
-- the "values" you, um, value, can change over the course of your life and
that's okay. The best ones probably won't -- maybe you'll just shift in
emphasis or priority -- but by really chewing on this topic regularly, it's
possible to arrive at values that really truly speak to who you are at your
deepest.

The point isn't the adverbs themselves; that's just a way of getting to what
matters most to you. So the exercise is something like "fill in the blank: I
want to live ____ly."

In my case, ones I "discovered" in myself fairly early were "candidly" and
"compassionately" (or kindly - they're not exactly the same, I know, but for
me they map onto very similar things). So in other words, two of my values, as
ACT defines them, are candor and compassion.

The effect is great, because there's no goal-pressure or even goal-attainment.
There's no day that'll come in which I'll "be candid"; instead, I'm free to
"derive" goals from that value, e.g. "how can I work some candor into _____
thing I'm doing today?". This conversation with my siblings; this project at
work; me sitting down to do my taxes. It's weird sometimes, and you can either
dismiss it or use it as a kind of creative prompt: "at first glance, my values
don't really apply to this activity, but what's a way to work them in?"

I can say more but I don't want to ramble.

~~~
helicalspiral
I'm trying to run through this exercise right now. Is it bad to have too many
adverbs at one time? Whatabout adverbs that might contradict? Or is it fine to
just get a few, no matter the contradictions and not overthink it?

~~~
maybelsyrup
Hello helical,

The version of the exercise I gave was extremely abbreviated - it's a web
forum, after all! - so it's necessarily stripped of a lot of detail and
context. In a real engagement with a patient, I'd have addressed questions
like yours right out of the gate. So apologies. (I hope you see this!).

The short answer to all of them is: it's just fine! The purpose here isn't to
get a highly formal, systematic, rigid "code of action" that you live by
strictly like some kind of Roman philosopher (though that stuff is incredibly
interesting, and ACT has debts to much of it). Instead, the purpose of the
values thing is to assist in being able to respond flexibly to pain and
suffering while committing to some of the things you find most meaningful -
things that are larger than yourself that you can serve.

Is it bad to have too many adverbs? Heavens, no. This is an iterative process,
so if the first thing that comes out of your head is a tsunami of possible
values, that's terrific. What I might recommend next is to quickly rank-order
them based on a simple gut feeling of which ones really interest you right
now, these days.

Contradictory adverbs: I don't want to sound glib, but I'll say it anyway:
you're human! Of course you'll have contradictory values. That's okay. Since
the entire point of ACT is to "act" (heh) in the world, to live these values
in some way, however modestly, the contradictions don't necessarily matter so
much if, in picking one in one instance and trying to act on it somehow, you
walk away from the situation with a feeling of "I'm uncomfortable because this
clashes a bit with other things I find important, but I know that I didn't act
purposelessly back there" \- if that makes any sense.

So basically your suspicions in your last question are correct: just get a
few, don't overthink it, go out there and try to live them or instantiate them
in some way (doesn't matter how small!), and then return to reflect on how
that went. It might be that, in acting on some value, you find that actually
you don't believe in it that deeply, or it's not really truly you, or
whatever, and you can drop it and try the next one out. Like I said, this is
an iterative, lifelong process, and it's mutable and it'll change and grow and
go in different, surprising directions. The point isn't to do this exercise
once -- it's to begin doing it on and off for the rest of your life, in the
same way that a navigator keeps looking up at the night sky and keeping an eye
on Polaris every now and then.

I hope this was somewhat helpful to you. I'll keep an eye on this thread if
you have any more questions.

------
david_draco
A major cause of depression is the feeling of loss of control of ones life,
and lack of security. For example, you are bullied/harassed at work, or
someone takes credit for your work, but this is compounded by not being able
to report it (because of conflict of interest in HR, or because it would not
help) and not being able to quit, because of financial difficulties, or
because the company will give you bad recommendations then. Or your family
members put you under pressure to follow a certain life path, and you cannot
escape.

Then the observed correlation would be the reverse causation of the article.

------
rglover
Think some people here can benefit from reading these two:

[https://www.amazon.com/Awareness-Opportunities-Reality-
Antho...](https://www.amazon.com/Awareness-Opportunities-Reality-Anthony-
Mello/dp/0385249373)

[https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Be-Disliked-Phenomenon-
Happin...](https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Be-Disliked-Phenomenon-
Happiness/dp/1501197274/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1Z920RPOC9CSL&dchild=1&keywords=the+courage+to+be+disliked&qid=1595596222&s=books&sprefix=courage+to+be+disliked%2Cstripbooks%2C164&sr=1-2)

Why? They help to rewire your brain and help you detach from a lot of the
things and ideas. Not a silver bullet (depression is one of several, natural,
human states) but may help some who want to avoid the pharmacological route.

------
brachika
I would somewhat agree, I grew up in a third world European country (yeah, we
exist) and I realized, compared to a lot of people in Western Countries,
people here (older people at least, the younger generation is influenced by
the west) are extremely stubborn and perseverant, spending much of their time
thinking about how they can provide and being optimistic considering all the
factors, thus being less susceptible to depression and anxiety.

A lot of my family were optimistic and happy, even though they worked long
hours, and tried to make it, and generally we didn't have problems with mental
issues (even though we've been through an economic crisis, wars, poverty,
famine, etc...)

------
anonmidniteshpr
Maybe. I was very depressed trying to earn a BS CSEE degree that took me 13
years (1997-2009). I started with severe depression, anxiety, and ADHD but
didn't know it and went untreated for most of the time. I did it, but went
bankrupt, became homeless, couldn't hold a job, and still have $9k in loans
held by Betsy DeVos' Navient that will never go away. Not sure I'm a good
anecdotal example. Got it done, but at the cost of switching temp jobs only to
not be hired back because the lab moved cities and reorganized. On SSI
disability and Medicare now (which took about 7 years and a lawyer to get),
which sucks because I don't want to depend on them. :(

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todaysAI
I developed [https://www.activegoals.net](https://www.activegoals.net) with
mental health in mind especially since I deal a lot with the autism community
who usually have poor executive functioning.

~~~
totetsu
I couldn't play the video on your site in chrome on android even after
downloading it. It played in vlc. Maybe check your codec

------
archibaldJ
The heavy is the root of the light.

The still is the master of unrest.

Realizing this,

the successful person is poised and centered

in the midst of all activities;

although surrounded by opulence,

he is not swayed.

Why should the lord of the country flit about like a fool?

If you let yourself be blown to and fro,

you lose touch with your root.

To be restless is to lose one's self-mastery.

\- Lao Tzu

------
sizzle
The downside to this is forming an addiction e.g. get in shape and look good
--> eating disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, etc.

It's so easy to fall into this trap of obsessing over achieving your one goal
to the detriment of your health and sanity (developing OCD, etc.)

Can anyone relate? for me it was the gym which spilled over into unhealthy
diets and unhealthy relationship to eating normal food that had carbs like it
was going to kill me until I realized how obsessed I was becoming and quit the
gym for outdoor activities.

~~~
x86ARMsRace
I can definitely relate, except not for the gym type of goals, rather academic
goals. I was studying STEM to be a researcher initially. I sunk pretty much
every minute of my time into trying to achieve that. Despite this, I just
could not get the marks needed to get where I wanted. That destroyed my mental
health for a long time. I tied my self-worth into my education, and that only.
I ended up developing something very similar to OCD that I still struggle with
today.

Ended up giving up on that pursuit, and went into the software world and
became a developer. It was really hard throwing that previous dream out, sunk
cost and all, but I have never been happier than I am now. I realized that my
single focus and obsession about achieving that specific goal meant that the
rest of my life had been essentially halted. That's not the case anymore.

I think sometimes, at least for myself, we can get so caught up in the
idealized end goal, that we forget that life happens between now and the end
goal. If we don't take care of ourselves between those two end-points, we will
either never reach that goal, or when we do, be unable to appreciate it.

------
DrLindemann
Like in a lot of social science stuff, causalities are mixed up. People who
can align their goals and life plan with their surrounding environment are
less likely to suffer from “depression”. I never understood the concept of
depression. In the definition lies the key of the problem. It looks like
depression is an incapability to adapt / fit or an inability to use the given
circumstances and integrate them into the own life or make use of them. The
problem has more than one side. Since therapeutics can’t change the
environment, and it’s easier to try to change the single “patient”, that’s the
focus of the “therapy”. Even if that means to break the patient. Social
systems integrate people, to make use and make value of them. And if that does
not work, to take them out under controlled condition. The other side of the
“depression” problem is estrangement. Modern social science neglects the
concept of estrangement. It is easier and more profitable to publish self-
referential and tautological articles and follow the stream. Opportunism and
system conformity are the driving forces of most social structures – that does
not exclude the academia.

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non-entity
I used to keep together at some of worse times of my life by persevering
towards goals, but nowadays everything just feels intangible or unrealistic.
Not sure why, maybe because I realize I have less and less control over
things. I guess right now things ar worse by the coronavirus and the fact that
theres little I can do now. These past few months have been incredibly similar
to past instances of self-imposed isolation.

------
circlefavshape
How about just not having life goals in the first place? Then you don't have
to give up on them, and don't need to get sad about it

------
riffraff
This doesn't seem to say what the title says. It reads more like "self
motivation has inverse correlation with depression, anxiety".

I.e. it's not a matter of telling people to have a goal to avoid depression,
but rather that people who are self motivated are also less prone to
depression.

That seems almost obvious, and it causes less cognitive dissonance for me.

------
LatteLazy
Stocism (actually reading Meditations by Marcus Auralius, not just "stiff
upper lip" BS) and exercise were all that worked for me. If you're suffering
please try those and note how you feel the next day, 2 days, 3 days.

~~~
aluth
Agreed, though I've found Seneca's letters to be more insightful
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_Morales_ad_Lucilium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_Morales_ad_Lucilium)),
as well as the The Enchiridion
([http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html](http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html)).

------
timwaagh
Is it possible those who gave up on their life goals were forced to do so
whereas those continuing towards life goals did so because they were making
good progress? Could just be another 'winners are not losers' study

------
srg0
It's not clear what is cause and what is effect.

Healthier mind and body allow to pursue more opportunities and work on longer
term goals. Any kind of disorder means that it's hard to get the normal stuff
done.

------
cblconfederate
We 've established by now that correlation equals causation, to our preferred
direction.

------
jcun4128
I'll build something and then after it's done think "why did I do that?" But I
guess it was fun during the process/before it existed.

Lately though I've been thinking something isn't a waste of time if it makes
money.

------
JediWing
Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders Can Fend Off Perseverance Toward Life
Goals

------
msohailshah
Goals seem pointless after one achieves them. They also seem pointless when
you need to devote mental energy for self protection from psychological and
physical violence.

------
Decker87
I've experienced this in the opposite direction: depression and anxiety have
been effective at preventing life goals.

------
Arech
Indeed. But that is quite...bad when life goals turns out to be unreachable..
What to do with perseverance then...

------
m3kw9
Boredom is a heck of a depressor.

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vermooten
Great - but if you're depressed / anxious then it's harder to persevere.

------
Shared404
Unless I'm misunderstanding...

People without $DISORDER show less symptoms of $DISORDER.

~~~
Shared404
And, 7 hours later properly reading comments...

Everyone already said this. Sorry.

------
makz
I'm very fond of Goku and Dragon Ball because they taught me this.

------
mysore
Thanks I needed this

~~~
dmitryminkovsky
Yes great post thank you.

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vmchale
Surprised it works with panic disorders.

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whatnidnogg
i agree. thanks hacker news. i love you all.

------
whatnidnogg
i agree

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jojobas
This presumes there's free will, for which there's little evidence. Different
bioelectric robots tend to either perseverance or depression, which is no
surprise.

