
Ask HN: How common is a counteroffer for developers who give notice? - bjornlouser
Seems like it was common practice a couple of decades ago. Does anyone try to retain developer talent these days?
======
jasode
_> Does anyone try to retain developer talent these days?_

There's a line of thought which assumes that an employee that's given notice
has already mentally "checked out". Therefore, it's unwise to present
counteroffers. Even if the manager persuades the employee to accept the
counteroffer, it's inadvertently detrimental to the team because you have
retained a disengaged mind that was eager to leave. To avoid all that, you
wish them well with a smile and just let them leave.

Many companies follow that principle. It's important for a developer to know
ahead of time if the company doesn't do counteroffers because if you're just
fishing around for job offers with no intention of changing jobs, the company
may call your bluff and let you leave.

~~~
w_t_payne
I would _never_ _ever_ counteroffer. To do so would crack Pandora's box wide
open.

First of all, it is simply not a game that I am willing to play.

Secondly, the other team members will know about it (eventually) and will
(eventually) try to do the same thing.

Overall, it would be detrimental to team cohesion and would undermine the
culture that I want to build:- One that is focused entirely on solving the
problem in front of us.

If a member of my team needed a pay rise (i.e. if they were expecting a child)
then I would work energetically to represent them within the organisation to
make sure that they get what they need -- but for their part I would expect
them to interact with me honestly and not play silly games.

~~~
gaius
_If a member of my team needed a pay rise (i.e. if they were expecting a
child)_

Wow, isn't that massively discriminatory? Raises and contributions should be
merit- or contribution-based, no more and no less.

~~~
kixiQu
Yeah, I'm trying to read it as "if a member of my team came to me with a new
ambition to do what it takes to up their comp (for whatever reason) I'd work
with them to expand their role in the org" but... it should not be a manager's
job to view me taking care of my parents differently from Coworker X buying
anime figurines if Coworker X and I are in the same role having the same
success.

------
buro9
It depends on why you were considering leaving.

If the reason is something that money could solve, then I always encourage the
company to offer more.

An example of this might be "I wasn't looking, still don't feel like I am. But
company X asked me to look at a role, and I felt I shouldn't just ignore and
it turns out they're offering $ and whilst I don't really want that role I
would be a fool to decline it out of hand as that difference helps achieve
<insert life goal>.".

In that case... if the company can do it, do it.

But if it's more "I went looking for something else and I hate this job, and
this other stuff winds me up, but if you gave me all this extra money I'd
suffer it a while longer"... then the company should wish you well and if they
understand fully how toxic you now are to the team would let you leave that
same day.

It depends. It always depends.

~~~
nilkn
I really agree with this. Your exact example -- every detail -- happened to me
a few years ago. I was offered a ~50% raise without really seeking it out. I
went to my boss (with whom I had an excellent relationship) and explained the
situation. I got the raise that day, and over two years later I've continued
to get great raises/promotions, and it has become the best job I've ever had.

It is important to note that I was doing really important work at the company.
I was probably not considered a "normal" employee.

------
le-mark
I've found you are counter offered only if you are perceived to be "good" ie a
key team member. I've also found it's normal in two situations. For
small/medium sized companies there can be counter offers if no one has left in
a while (ie year or two), and you are the first 1 or 2 "good" developers try
to quit. After that they kind of give up.

The second situation is they're hemorrhaging staff, and will counter everyone,
or proactively give raises to stem the tide.

I once took a counter offer that was nearly 50% of my salary. That was too
much money to turn down.

~~~
danellis
> The second situation is they're hemorrhaging staff, and will counter
> everyone

That's probably how it happened to me. I gave my notice, and people looked
worried and had hushed conversations. A couple of hours later, managers from
other teams were offering me better roles, but I turned them down, because the
reason I was leaving was that I didn't like the way the company had treated me
up to that point.

The problem with companies that act like that is that if they believed I
deserved a better position, the time to act was when I had made it known I was
unhappy, not when I'd already made the decision to leave. I'd already applied
for internal promotion a couple of months before, and they could have acted
then instead of just never getting back to me.

~~~
jwatte
How clear had you been in 1:1s that you were unhappy and would consider
looking elsewhere?

~~~
0xbear
Being clear about that kind of thing would be a serious career limiting move
in all of the companies I worked at. No one likes a whiner, even if whining is
justified. Simply put, in a 1:1 you're not in a position of power and
therefore your leverage in this negotiation is very weak. If you are vital to
the team/project, when seriously threatening to leave, you _are_ in a position
of power.

------
iammiles
Several months ago I gave notice to my startup employer that I had accepted an
offer at another company. I was asked if there was anything they could do to
keep me. I said unless they doubled my (low) salary I wouldn't have much of an
interest in staying.

I liked the people I worked with, I liked the work culture, and even liked
what the company was building, but at the end of the day it was worth it for
me to switch to working on "non-sexy" legacy tech at a large corporation and
all the BS that comes with that for financial gain, stability, and benefits.

~~~
closeparen
Do legacy tech at large corporation jobs actually provide stability? It seems
you face a higher risk of outsourcing there than the risk of collapse at a
Silicon Valley company with traction.

~~~
viraptor
It depends. If your role is "generic, replaceable developer" then you could
risk outsourcing. If you're in a specific kind of project, or in a specialist
position, it's less likely.

Then again I lost a position in a corp when the whole project was cancelled.
The redundancy pay was sweet though.

~~~
daxelrod
> Then again I lost a position in a corp when the whole project was cancelled.

Sorry to hear that. As long as it wasn't canceled because they had trouble
paying the bills or the teams were dysfunctional, that's usually pretty short-
sighted of the corp.

Here's a bunch of people that we've already taken the cost of
recruiting/training/onboarding who are familiar with our technology and
processes. The right answer is to reassign them to other work in the
organization.

~~~
viraptor
It's an interesting situation from the other side as well. I got some
resources to try to relocate to another team, but wasn't keen on it. One day
you hear your team is important another that the whole project is finished -
made me reluctant to try again. OTOH, in a big corpo the recruiting/onboarding
costs are probably just ongoing / don't matter that much.

------
galeforcewinds
In my experience, factors include whether there are planned hiring freezes or
organization structure changes, the critical experience of the developer for
critical projects, and the level of understanding of the manager.

In many cases, if the business is advancing toward a downsizing, they might
choose not to make a counteroffer and instead use the departure to fill a
planned staffing reduction. This can pose serious issues for the manager when
a business chooses such a course when their manpower was not originally slated
for downsizing.

I've seen lower appetite for counteroffers in the "middle range" of maturity.
When a team has begun to reject cowboy culture and tribal knowledge, embracing
high levels of testing, documentation and automation there may be reduced
interest in keeping someone for skill and knowledge. I've seen this behavior
diminish when organizations reach a higher maturity level and are making a
more sizable investment in long-term growth of their employees through things
like training.

When serving as a manager, there are many cases where one might step in to ask
the business not to make a counteroffer, such as: if the employee is
relocating due to their spouse, if the employee determines remote work is not
a good fit for themselves, or if the employee is seen to be making positive
career steps forward which could not be matched in their current work
environment. Many managers are big enough people not to try to hold their
employees back.

There are of course many places I've not worked, and many possible cases I've
not seen, but the above is my experience.

------
tptacek
In addition to 'jasode's line of thought about employers not countering
because giving notice means you've checked out, you should also understand the
corollary, which is that even if you're retained through a counter, you might
still be "damaged goods" and excluded from promotion, incentive compensation,
and the most important projects.

There was, a dozen or so years ago, a notion that you should never accept a
counteroffer for exactly this reason. Your employer would be buying
optionality on retaining you. What they want isn't you, but the right to
decide when to replace you and a longer grace period to do that in.

This definitely does happen; it happened explicitly to me in a previous job (I
was told a few years after I left, a year or so after accepting a counter and
then being marginalized).

------
aey
In my experience there was always a counter offer, unless you are terrible :).

But I would strongly discourage you from taking it. Basically, the reason you
are not at that salary/position yet, is because you are not recognized at that
level by management. getting a bump via a counter offer will mean that you
will be last in line for raises/bonus/promotions since you will be viewed as
getting paid above your grade. This was what I observed as a manager at a big
company during calibrations.

If you want a bump, ask your manager - where do you need the most help, what
can i do to have a larger impact this cycle etc... - and do those things. If
that is not enough, run :)

~~~
badosu
> _In my experience there was always a counter offer, unless you are terrible
> :)._

I wouldn't give a counter-offer to an employee if I know that I can't really
offer a better salary or work environment, and it would be even undesirable
for me to have him accept it as he would probably always have the thought of
leaving haunting him afterwards.

Sometimes not receiving a counter offer is the opposite of being _terrible_.
Yours is a _terrible_ advice.

------
TomV1971
Very common.

Two times, I accepted the counteroffer and stayed (for a while.) It didn’t
have any adverse impact. I’m still at the company of the second counteroffer.

My experience is that big companies are typically quite rational about the
whole thing. No hard feelings or anything, just business.

~~~
kelukelugames
Haha, managers are like girlfriends/boyfriends. They take the first breakups
personally. Then after a few more, they mature and wish you good luck on your
next one.

------
everdev
If you give notice, you're saying "I'm at the end of my rope, I'm leaving".

If you go to management and say "I've been struggling with X, Y and Z can you
help me?" then you're signaling that you trust the company to help you, wether
that's workload, salary, etc.

Management that counter offer after giving notice is 9/10 trying to keep you
around long enough to find a better replacement knowing that you'll leave
again in the near future, or they'll boot you when the replacement is up to
speed.

~~~
noitsnot
Most of the time they're trying to keep you around long enough not to have to
deal with hiring someone else anyway.

------
ufmace
Varies widely depending on the individual situation of the developer, the
company, the manager, and the relationship of the developer to everyone else,
relative skill and experience, and countless other factors.

I haven't personally gotten any yet after 3 resignations in my professional
career, but that may be because in all of them, I was leaving because I was
already very sure, based on factors other than the salary, that I no longer
wanted to work there.

Well, the first one, I might have been able to get a counter-offer or other
change in working conditions if I had been fishing for it, but I had long been
coming to the conclusion that I just didn't see myself there long-term.

There is a lot of discussion out there about getting and giving counter offers
and whether or not you should accept one. One thing I would say to the
companies/managers that I haven't seen much - if you have the budget and
desire to keep the employee to make a counter-offer, why didn't you just give
them that raise in the first place? Seems easier than letting them run around
interviewing at other places and negotiating offers with other companies, just
to save 10% or whatever of their salary for a year or two.

------
brogrammernot
Very common.

However, if you want to stay and it’s just about money or title I would
suggest talking to your director of recruiting or engineering manager. In my
experience, chatting with them and being honest saying like “I love the
company, but I’ve gotten some verbal offers/interest from company X, Y, X and
the package they’re offering + the challenges they want me to solve are very
intriguing. I’m loyal, so I haven’t taken any interviews as I really want to
solve challenges here but this looks like a great opportunity. What can we do
to make my current role as competitive that these ones?”

You have to be willing to leave though, as they might just say nope and that’s
the end of it.

I used that same tactic, along with a proposal of what I wanted to do/be paid,
and got a hefty increase.

It costs a lot to find developers, then to hire good ones. It can be $5-20k +
the domain knowledge you have so it’s not cheap to replace a good developer.

~~~
expertentipp
> It costs a lot to find developers, then to hire good ones. It can be $5-20k
> + the domain knowledge you have so it’s not cheap to replace a good
> developer.

My experience is different. Avalanche the expensive and experienced devs with
more and more work until they signalize that the team requires upsizing, make
them resign. Fish for students, contractors. Hire contractors exclusively
through a chain of intermediaries, so their salary and employee rights will be
minuscule and they will have no leverage to say "no" to the most ridiculous
bullshit.

Please tell me there exist companies which appreciate their specialists, which
offer a significant payrise to make them stay. I have yet to encounter and
work for one.

~~~
infinite8s
What industry is this? Haven't seen this in finance.

~~~
expertentipp
IT in post-Communist EU countries. There are global banks employing here as
well, but that's the absolute bottom of outsourcing food chain. Met the
practices I described above as well in Germany.

------
lazyant
It's common but it's a lose-lose situation; the employee will resent that she
hasn't been paid what she was worth and will be afraid to be replaced at any
moment and the employer will feel like the developer stays just for the money
and will leave at any time if somebody else matches it.

------
CyanLite3
I'd take a counter under the following scenarios:

1) Company knows they are going to eliminate a team within XX months. I'd take
a huge counter (3x salary) to stay on to help shutdown a project or sell the
company. 2-3x salary in these cases are fairly normal when a company gets sold
and they just need help transitioning to the new parent company.

2) Company offers a severance package along with it. E.g., we'll give you a
salary bump and a 12-month severance if we let you go without cause, within
one year.

However, I've been on both sides, and I've offered a counteroffer to anyone
who is leaving and I wanted to keep. Any company who doesn't do that probably
doesn't have good developers who are constantly getting recruited on LinkedIn.

------
jwatte
There's a difference between "this offer shows that I'm underpaid in my
current position" and "I decided to move on for a variety of reasons."

An employee who gives me solid market data, and is a good performer who likes
the current position, does me a favor if they let me know I missed the memo on
current market.

In most companies, it's 2-4% pretty year into infinity, and if the overall
market grows faster than that, independent research may be warranted.

Meanwhile, of someone gives notice, rather than starts a conversation, I'd be
much more wary. If we don't have a good, open relationship already, a quick
raise won't fix that.

------
dawnerd
Demand Media counter offered me a few times and I took it since the pay bump
was substantial. The last one I told them they had to bring the rest of the
people on my team up to my level. Once they did I quit for good. Take that DM.

~~~
imaginenore
Why would you do something so mean?

~~~
icedchai
Mean? Organizations don't have feelings. People do. It sounds like they did a
beautiful thing: looking out for the rest of their team.

------
sidcool
Very very common. One could be asking for a raise, promotion, project change
etc for months. Then when a resignation is tendered, counteroffers start to
trickle in. Upon enquiring why so, they grin like the Grinch.

I also believe that developer availability is going to soon outspeed demand.
Revel while we get the importance.

~~~
jaimex2
Its a shame it has to come down to those games. Generally when asked what I
was offered I quote something stupid to not get a counteroffer or pull off the
biggest hustle of my life.

I don't think you should ever take counter offers if you previously asked for
a raise and got no where.

------
edoceo
I've offered a counter to everyone I wanted to keep on the team. Am not
batting 1000.

I think if you don't get the counter, the reason is clear.

------
tomkinson
One shouldn't give notice then negotiate. One should say 'I am considering
giving notice', then negotiate.

------
Avernar
To me a counter offer is basically saying "we got away paying you less than
what you're worth to us and you finally called our bluff". That's why I'll
never accept a counter offer.

~~~
kpxxx3
Lol. They didn’t get away with anything. Unless you were sold as a slave you
negotiated some terms mutually. Why the fuck would any party in a business
transaction voluntarily pay more if they have no reason to believe that is
necessary. Do you tell amazon that Walmart is selling the same item for $10
more so they can raise their price so you don’t “get away” paying a lower
price than most likely what some people are paying?

There’s no bluff being called. This is simply the normal way for transaction
participants to act rationally and in their best interests.

~~~
Avernar
> you negotiated some terms mutually

Most people are not skilled negotiators. That aside, the balance in that
negotiation is in favour of the employer at the start. At that point you are
worth nothing to them. They can just go to the next candidate. You on the
other had have a mortgage, debts to deal with, bills to pay, family to feed,
etc. It takes time before that balance tips towards the employee. That's when
the company needs to reassess what they're paying you.

> There’s no bluff being called.

They know you're worth more but at your yearly performance review they'll do
their damnedest to only give you cost of living if even that. Then they put
the burden on you to prove you're worth more than that. "What did you
accomplish this past year?" They know what you did for them. They're hoping
you were too busy to document it yourself. "We can give you more but you have
to take on more responsibilities." They were paying you less than you were
worth for your current workload before this! This extra work will mean even
more unpaid overtime which will nullify the raise and even turn it into an
effective pay cut. Even if you do manage to document your past work and/or
agree to more work you'll just hit the arbitrary raise cap they put in place.
"This is the best that we can do."

They are bluffing. They're gambling that you can't find a better offer. Or
that it's too much hassle to switch. But once you call their bluff that's when
you get to finally see what they really could have been paying you.

> act rationally and in their best interests

Companies very rarely do this for long term goals. Short term gains is top
priority. Saving money on payroll now is better to them than mitigating the
big financial loss that loosing a key employee would cause in the future.

That is the reason why we see this counter offer behaviour each and every
time. You've change the "he's going to quit sometime in the future" to "he's
quitting NOW". You've now made it a short term issue and that's what finally
got them to react.

------
pjdemers
If the outside offer is for a similar role, just more money, then a counter
offer is common. That's because if employees leave for the same job somewhere
else, then you are not paying enough. If the outside offer has a different
role, or a different level of responsibility, then, it is difficult to make a
counter offer. I've had more than a few developers leave for less money,
sometimes allot less, because they wanted to do something different.

------
amorphid
If you like your employer...

One option you have is to prepare to ask for a raise, and then pitch them on
why you're worth more before you accept the other offer. They might agree with
you, and simply give you the raise you're asking for. Using this approach,
you're making it about the company before you make it about yourself. If you
don't get the raise, accept the other offer. If a counter offer comes your
way, you can decide whether you wanna deal with it.

------
fuzzygroup
I've hired a lot of engineers and I've seen this a number of times. In my
experience once someone gets to the point of interviewing and considering
another job, well, they're on the way out. I've done the counter offer and
tried to get them to stay a number of times and it just never tends to work
out -- they take the offer and then within six months they are out anyway.

What I always do though is try and keep a good relationship with all departing
staff so if there's a critical need for knowledge that only they have, they
can be brought back on a consulting basis for specific problems. That way
people can leave and organizationally you're not stuck in a bind.

------
shaftway
On the flip side I've had a manager tell me to never accept a counter-offer.
It's basically a dead-end path for you, especially at smaller companies. If
you take it then management resents you, and you're likely to be passed over
for promotion/raises in the future. And that's just if they're not vindictive.
If they are they'll just get a brain dump, wait for your offers to expire then
lay you off.

He wasn't very happy when I gave notice and rejected his counter-offer.

------
contingencies
I had one in 2009/2010\. They made it too good to refuse. I accepted.

------
jacobkg
If you don’t think that your company would counter because they think you will
have “already checked out” or “can’t be saved” there is one option you can
try. Go out and get some job offers for higher salaries and then decline them
all. Come back to your manager after some time has passed and mention that you
had recently validated your value in the market and know what you are worth
and that though this time you weren’t interested you can’t know what the
future will hold. They may see that you can still be retained and make an
effort to keep you.

~~~
avh02
I can't do full on job seeking if I know I'll not take the job. The amount of
people's time you waste is significant.

If there's even a slimmer of chance I could accept it, yeah, I could go for
it.

~~~
twblalock
There is also the risk that your manager might not believe that you did not
intend to leave. The whole plan sounds fishy. I don't know if I would believe
someone who told me they were only interviewing to find out their market-rate
salary. So, the whole thing could end up being tantamount to giving notice
anyway.

------
egamirorrim
Anecdotally, i've always been counter offered - and i've left 4 jobs as a
developer. Usually around 10% more, assuming you say your primary reason for
leaving is monetary and 'advancement' of course. If you say you're unhappy
because of behaviour x and y they'll probably think they can retain you just
by changing those. You have to be up front.

Edit: 2 of these were 'big companies', 2 were small (small business and a
startup)

------
reificator
Purely anecdotal, but I've actually been given two counter offers before even
looking for other employment.

I call them counter offers and not simple raises because of the tone and
demeanor of those involved. These were not just "you're doing well"
conversations, they were "here's some extra compensation, please please tell
us if you even think of looking elsewhere so we can plan ahead" conversations.

------
gdfer
I have left 3 jobs and for all have asked/told not to bother with a counter
offer because my decisions were not based on $. Looking back on my career thus
far im sure i could have made more money but not sure i would have been better
off.

------
k__
When I said I want to leave my manager offered me his place...

But the directors said only people who come to work before 11 are allowed to
be managers

------
zde
It is common, and you will probably get 2 or 3 counteroffers, but (unless you
bluffed) none will make you stay.

------
akilism
i've only left 2 jobs in the last 12 years but both gave me counters.

------
magoon
With few exceptions, don't take a counter-offer.

~~~
jaimex2
the exception being only if the money is stupid good?

~~~
wolco
If you have been working at a place for a number of years you take the
increase knowing that will fired as soon as a replacement can be found.

This increases the amount they have to pay via notice pay.

Only would work in a large corporate situation where you know your team is
being laid off in a year anyways.

