
The Counted: are US police hiding behind 'suicide by cop' shootings? - cryoshon
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/06/suicide-by-cop-the-counted
======
herbig
I'm all for more police scrutiny. As a resident of NYC, I've had a few
interactions with police that have left me with the impression that probably
50% of them here are ineffective _at best_ , and a net negative at worst. I'm
sure there are good, well intentioned police officers here, but I've honestly
never encountered one.

However, these stories all involve people who wanted to die getting shot to
death by the police because they intentionally posed a danger to them.

I can't really fault officers for shooting a man charging at them with a knife
and hatchet. Yes, they could have used nonlethal weapons, and yes they could
have responded differently, such as shooting his legs.

These officers should be disciplined and retrained to handle these situations,
but this is not Eric Garner or Michael Brown.

~~~
hga
_I can 't really fault officers for shooting a man charging at them with a
knife and hatchet. Yes, they could have used nonlethal weapons_

There are no effective ones. Heck, handguns fail frequently enough to stop
such attacks; some adversaries who don't get hit in the CNS only stop
attacking after sufficient blood loss.

Shooting in the legs is for movies. Besides still being lethal force
(especially if a femoral artery is hit), a small, often moving a lot more than
the torso target is subpar at best. If lethal force is justified, then
shooting at the center of mass is the only reasonable policy, maybe followed
up by attempts to hit the head (CNS).

(NYC police, BTW, have some of the worse firearms training in the country.
Turns out there are consequences to extinguishing your firearms culture.)

------
mildbow
Is the US ipso facto a police state at this point? Well, maybe not. Because
"police state" implies a level of involvement by the government/politicization
in an organized way.

When I think about what interactions I'm worried about having, those with cops
make me more anxious than walking along a dark alley.

Are cops just the new mob?

Of course, you might say .. "No! Look at China etcs", but I don't live in
China. I'm not worried about Chinese cops.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" Might just be one of the most important
questions that will decide the future of the US. Guards watching themselves
isn't working anymore, if it ever actually did.

~~~
hga
_Is the US ipso facto a police state at this point?_

We civilians have _way_ too many guns for this to be like any police state
previously known to man.

E.g., 9 million were manufactured in the US last year, and I could look up the
importation numbers if desired. Monthly NICS recorded sales continue to break
records. Etc. etc.

To those who say this sort of thing is useless, well, ignoring how much this
might be suppressing greater unjustified police violence (or, why are they so
eager to kill dogs?), note how all those California police units _completely
lost their shit_ when _1_ mostly crazy guy started killing a few of them.

That said, suicide by cop is a real thing, there's even a recorded case of
suicide by armed civilian. But certainly some unjustified killings are lurking
in the statistics.

~~~
DanBC
> That said, suicide by cop is a real thing

A lot of people shot and killed by US police have tiny weapons - little itty
bitty 3" blades.

Suicide by cop is a thing in the US where police are quick to kill civilians.
The fact that the US doesn't accurately count people killed by police is weird
and baffling.

[http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/ar...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/armed-
police)

[http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-
counted-p...](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-
police-killings-us-vs-other-countries)

[http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/the-shocking-extent-
of...](http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/the-shocking-extent-of-fatal-
police-shootings-in-the-us-in-one-graphic--lJkmbhc5yb)

~~~
hga
A blade that small is entirely capable of delivering a mortal wound (and
normal concealed body armor is little hindrance to edged weapons), and are you
aware of the Tueller Drill:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill)
?

~~~
DanBC
Sure. Police forces across the western world deal with blades that size or
bigger without killing the person holding it.

US police are incompetant.

~~~
michaelbuddy
When it comes to blades, I'd rather be called "incompetent" than dead. a quick
youtube or liveleak search shows more than a few of these 'competent' police
getting killed.

~~~
DanBC
Yet other police forces in the western world deal with similar knives, and
larger, without resorting to killing the person with the weapon.

A quick youtube search shows police in England or Germany or etc subduing then
arresting people with weapons.

Why can they do it while US police can't? It's because i) US police have much
less training and ii) US police can use their guns almost with impunity. The
fact that the US doesn't even bother to count the number of people killed by
police should tell you something.

~~~
michaelbuddy
that also happens all the time in the US. Not every knife incident in the U.S.
results in a shooting death of the attacker. and if YOU were U.S. police you
would use your gun against a knife attacker if you could.

what do you think is on the mind of somebody with a knife? There's no reason
to believe they want to do anything but kill you or someone else. And no
reason to believe they'll stop at one person now or that they won't do it
again. Knife fighting is a good way to get killed.

Bottom line, you don't know it until you're in the shit or you're close to
somebody in it. Ever been on a ride along? I'm guessing you haven't and you
sit at home complaining about police without learning anything about it.

~~~
DanBC
> that also happens all the time in the US. Not every knife incident in the
> U.S. results in a shooting death of the attacker.

US police shoot and kill about 1,000 people per year. That's far more than any
other country. Some people claim it's because of US gun laws meaning more
people have guns, but US police shoot and kill people with small knives. Those
same people are not shot and killed in other countries - what are those
countries doing differently?

> and if YOU were U.S. police you would use your gun against a knife attacker
> if you could.

If I was incompetent and had almost zero training then yes, I probably would
shoot people. Maybe this is the thing that other countries are doing
differently - providing adequate training?

> what do you think is on the mind of somebody with a knife?

We know that lots of people who are shot and killed by US police have no
history of violence against other people, but do have a history of self-harm.
We know that some people are attempting suicide, their families call the
police for help, and the police shoot the person.

That is clearly sub-optimal. I'm not sure how you could defend such useless
policing.

And you keep saying that people with knives are murderous villains - but you
ignore the fact that these same murderous villains are not shot and killed in
other countries. Why do English police manage to subdue then capture a violent
man wielding a machette?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw)
This man would be dead in the US.

> Bottom line, you don't know it until you're in the shit or you're close to
> somebody in it. Ever been on a ride along? I'm guessing you haven't and you
> sit at home complaining about police without learning anything about it.

Why do you feel the need to defend incompetence and brutality?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
In a knife attack, nobody wins. All will be injured. It is considered correct
response to avoid engagement with a knife-wielder. Responding with a gun _is_
correct training.

Also, the final Ad-hominem attack is not helping.

