
Plan to restrict highly skilled foreign workers could be a boon for India - stablemap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/trump-and-sessions-plan-to-restrict-highly-skilled-foreign-workers-hyderabad-says-bring-it-on/2017/01/08/8701e0ca-d2c0-11e6-aa0c-f196d8ef0650_story.html
======
politician
> The visas bring nearly 100,000 “highly skilled” contract workers, mostly in
> tech and mostly from India, to the United States every year.

> The H-1B program provides American companies with cheap, temporary
> contractors who often work longer hours than Americans and take on the
> monotonous programming jobs Americans scorn.

I don't even know where to start. It's the same paradoxical position that
journalists have always taken on the H1-B program: that those granted visas
are better, faster, _and_ cheaper than American labor while simultaneously
relieving the (implicitly higher-skilled) native workforce of "monotonous"
(i.e. low-skill and repetitive) work.

So, they're higher skilled yet are put to work on low-skill tasks? This is a
fantastical proposition.

~~~
sean_patel
> So, they're higher skilled yet are put to work on low-skill tasks? This is a
> fantastical proposition.

Correct. And your snarkiness aside, it's true. I have several (Indian) cousins
and a couple of uncles / aunties (came as Mainframe / COBOL programmers) who
have attested to the same.

Even in the Financial Services companies I interned at ( Goldman) and worked
at in the past, I've noticed by way of water cooler discussions and whispers
that Indian and Chinese H1B works get significantly lower pay -- I'm talking a
30% to 40% lower pay -- than their (mostly white) American counterpart. Many
in the exact same Job Title, Role / Grade and Job Description.

We also used to offload our Unit Testing and documentation work to these H1B
and they did it without complaining. Most of them dream of getting their Green
Card and freedom when they can charge Market rate and not be bound to their
H1B sponsor / employer.

~~~
politician
Regardless, the H1-B program is sold to the public as a way to bring over
highly-skilled individuals into roles that require _those_ higher skills.

Yet, time and again we see that the emperor has no clothes: these programs are
used to import labor from overseas because it's cheap.

~~~
oautholaf
I can't speak to any abuse of these programs, but as a US citizen I value my
co-workers on H1-Bs and want them to stay.

~~~
HarryHirsch
Without sounding snarky or condescending, you should educate yourself about
the H1-B program and about the ways how it is abused. It _is_ as bad as those
who have gone though it make it sound.

~~~
oautholaf
And I haven't met any of them who would prefer it gone entirely...

~~~
HarryHirsch
Your distaste isn't remotely as great as it ought to be.

~~~
oautholaf
I ought to have distaste for them? No.

Sure I'd reform the program, but I am glad that they can come here and so are
they. I would be upset if they couldn't anymore and so would they.

Sorry to say, I don't think reforming the program with applicants in mind is
on the table in this administration.

------
jedberg
It seems like it would be so easy to fix the H1B problem. The problem is that
the "body shops" just file a ton of applications and then get the number they
need because they don't actually care who they get, they just need warm
bodies.

And then there are the companies that actually need skilled engineers who pay
really high salaries, but only apply for the people who they actually want.

So make it an auction instead of a lottery.

10,000 visas available this year? Great, the 10,000 highest paid workers get
in.

Edit: It was pointed out below that this wouldn't be fair to recent college
grads, so perhaps it could be split on age or years of experience or something
like that.

Another solution would be to automatically convert student visas to H1B after
they graduate from an accredited institution.

You can see how this will help. Check out the data[0]. Wipro, a standard
Indian body shop, is paying their H1Bs a median of 69K. Netflix is paying a
median of 169K, with about 100 jobs over 200K (and a few above 500K). Google
and Microsoft are a little lower than Netflix.

[0]
[http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=wipro&job=&city=&year=All+Y...](http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=wipro&job=&city=&year=All+Years)

------
harry8
The combined lobbying muscle and money of Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple,
Microsoft, Twitter etc etc will now sing from one song sheet with the goal of
making damn, damn sure that there isn't a bidding war for engineers the way
there is for investment bankers, lawyers and "senior managers" with MBAs.

The Washington Post will support this drive fully, as it always has, the
campaign isn't new after all. But now there is a palpable threat the vigour
and determination will be increased dramatically. Where are the engineers
being paid multi-millions for inventing and building stuff? Never heard of one
unless they owned the company. Where are the senior managers, loads of them in
every fortune 500 company and beyond.

~~~
harry8
Y-Combinator is obviously also on that list. From top story to second page in
an hour. I do hope that move was organic and not manipulated with privilege...

~~~
davidw
Probably got flagged by people as politics. Which it is. This topic comes up
regularly, and no one convinces anyone. Some people are convinced that they
took uuurrr jawwbs, and others are convinced that even immigrants are human
beings who ought to have a shot at life in the US if they are willing to work
hard.

~~~
harry8
And most probably have a more nuanced and sophisticated view of the issue
beyond such finger painted sketches.

It if really is flagged as "politics" that would be a shame and would
certainly reflect badly on y-combniator given the founders broadcast of their
views on the matter.

The whole concept of "flagged as politics" is actually absurd in this forum.

I wonder if what you say is true and how one would find out.

~~~
grzm
I think the "flagged as politics", though it does happen (in particular during
and around the "Political Detox Week" experiment) is more a misnomer in
general. Submissions are sometimes flagged because members think the resulting
discussion will likely produce much more heat than light.

Given the number of comments, in this case I think the discussion may have
triggered the "overheated discussion detector" algorithm, which will move a
submission down.

~~~
harry8
Seems highly unlikely given the the number of posts if such a threshold is
fairly applied, don't you think? Obviously this is a policy that has direct
ramifications on the business interests of the founders of YCombinator. They
probably ought to be careful if they really are interfering in moderating.

~~~
grzm
From what I've observed, there's no conspiracy going on here. The mods are
very open about the actions they take, and in the case of YC-related topics,
have removed automatically applied weights and user-flagged actions to ensure
they are discussed, even while flame wars rage on.

Human psychology being what it is, we pay attention to what happens to topics
that interest us, in particular if it's negative. This gives us a biased view.
I think if you were to do a study of submissions on HN, it wouldn't likely
support a view that the mods or the HN algorithms are doing anything untoward.
(I'd personally be interested in seeing such a report regardless of the
results.)

I think I may have been unclear when I mentioned the number of comments with
respect to triggering the overheated discussion detector: I think its based on
comment rate rather than absolute number. (The exact rules of the site aren't
open.) Yesterday a post was sitting at number 1, with a comparable number of
votes to the one in the number 2 slot. As the number of comments skyrocketed
(over a hundred in a couple of hours), it plummeted in rank even as it
continued to be upvoted. And the topic had nothing to do with YC or even
business, for that matter.

There is one other behavior that may be at play. User flags will affect
ranking even prior to the '[flagged]' tag appearing. This could also be the
case for either of these submissions.

Also, please be aware that flagging is nearly always a result user flags, not
interference by the mods. Likewise, the algorithmic actions are automatic, not
reviewed and applied by mods on a case by case basis. I've seen reference to
the mods adding weight to a post, but this I believe is few and far between. I
haven't seen this mention in months. And from a practical standpoint, the mods
are just two guys. They do their best in tending to the forums, but they're
not watching the site 24/7\. They're not reviewing every submission.

------
Daishiman
This is really funny. 15 years ago there were so many engineers and PhD
students and candidates who wanted to get a higher education or a work visa to
the US, with the mantra of getting the "best and brightest".

Nowadays the more sober people that I know shy away from the opportunity,
preferring European research institutions and Nordic or Germanic engineering
companies, or just staying home in Latin America or Asia given that the wage
gap has tightened considerably and the cost of living in desirable American
locations has gone up astronomically.

It's the sort of thing that panders to the short-term nationalistic
tendencies, but the impact will be felt a decade or two from now. Building up
and maintaining intellectual prestige takes much more effort than it does to
destroy it. Not to mention that there's more eagerness to set up engineering
shops outside of the US than ever before.

~~~
Bahamut
I have not seen this in general - there is for sure an effect on some not
wanting to come to the US, but from what I see in developer circles and what I
have seen in academia, the US is by far the most popular location to move to.
The opportunities are still excellent if you can get through that crappy
immigration filter.

Truth be told, immigrating to the US has been tricky for decades, if not
longer - historically it is a very popular country to immigrate to, but there
are filters currently founded on xenophobia/nationalism/racism/etc. These
speculated changes aren't really much different in that vein, except that it
closes a loophole that is abused. There are more guaranteed ways to get into
the US, such as the L-1 visa. There are also ways to get an H-1B visa without
going through the lottery.

~~~
masonic

      there are filters currently founded on xenophobia/nationalism/racism/etc.
    

Compare the immigration restrictions of your own country to those of the USA.
Aren't they _more_ restrictive than those of the USA? And if so, doesn't that
mean your country is more "xenophobic/nationalistic/racist/etc." ?

~~~
themacguffinman
Yes, my country's immigration restrictions are worse than the US'. So what? I
dislike it in my own country and I dislike it in the US. Did you honestly
expect people to think "oh no, I can't criticize the US because that would
mean I'd have to criticize my own country too!"

~~~
rak00n
There is a difference between living in your own country that's xenophobic and
immigrating to a xenophobic country.

------
uiri
The text of the bill presented in the previous session of congress may be
found here: [https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-
bill/5801...](https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-
bill/5801/text)

The actual text of the bill _only_ effects employers whose workforce is at
least 15% H-1Bs (higher thresholds exist for employers with 50 or less
employees).

The Attorney General can prevent an employer from petitioning for _any_ alien
(H-1B, L-1, nonimmigrant, immigrant, etc.) for a period of 1, 2 or 3 years
(depending on willfulness and similar criteria) if it is found that a non-
exempt H-1B displaced an American worker.

The current definition of exempt H-1B is: $60k salary OR a Masters degree.

The new definition of exempt H-1B will be: $100k salary.

The relevant statutes are here:
[http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=%28title:8%20section:...](http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=%28title:8%20section:1182%20edition:prelim%29)

The bill modifies (n)(3)(B).

The 15% and other thresholds are in (n)(3)(A).

The sanctions the Attorney General may impose are described in (n)(2)(E).
Random inspections by the Secretary of Labor are described in (n)(2)(F).

The 1-3 years are defined in (n)(2)(C)(i)(III), (n)(2)(C)(ii)(II), and
(n)(2)(C)(iii)(II) which (n)(2)(E) refers to.

------
stale2002
The problem with the h1b is that it is a lottery.

If it was instead auctioned to the highest bidder, then we wouldnt get
companies undercutting American jobs.

Don't just give the visa to someone randomly. Give it to the company who is
willing to pay a 50k tax bill.

If the employee is worth it, then they will have no problem paying the bill.

~~~
ajmurmann
If the money goes to taxes I'm afraid it will lower the employee's salary. How
about going by the highest salary offered instead? That would ensure that the
pay stays competitive and foreign engineers don't get hired just because they
are cheaper.

~~~
xiaoma
The way to do the auction is, the engineers with the highest salary offers get
to come (national security permitting). This way the slots would be used only
to bring in people who were truly highly valued in their profession.

------
mberning
I love the characterization that most if not all of these people are highly
skilled and highly prized talents. My experience working with many over the
years is quite the opposite. That is not to say that there are not a few good
talents here and there, but to say that most of them are good or above average
developers would be innacurate. I recently started working on a codebase that
was developed by 200 on shore and off shore Indian contractors over the course
of a few years. What a disaster. And no engineering disipline whatsoever to
mitigate it.

~~~
headcanon
If you had a codebase that was developed over a few years by 200 different
remote contractors, thats a recipe for disaster regardless of their
nationality.

~~~
nsgi
Why should it be any more of a disaster than an open source project?

~~~
mehwoot
An open source project is primarily composed of people writing some software
out of passion with few hard deadlines. A team of 200 developers, some off
shore, are developing in order to get paid for a client who likely has strict
time and budget constraints. I'm not sure I could come up with many scenarios
that I would expect to see a wider gap in code quality, even if the developers
were the same level of skill.

~~~
rak00n
Also it's easier to nope a bad decision for OSS. Office politics makes it way
difficult.

------
dirkdk
having tougher restrictions for H1B visa's wouldn't be a bad thing. Last few
years about 3x as many applications were filed than visas available, with a
lottery deciding who would get the H1b visa. I would argue that foreigners
that work at a high tech company like Google or Microsoft or Silicon Valley
startups add more value than one working at an outsourcing firm that replace
americans

~~~
spaceflunky
My problem with whole US H1B system is that there's no shared "opportunity
creation." In other words, someone in India has the opportunity to go to
school, get a good degree, and then apply to jobs in the US and India.

Whereas a US citizen really only has jobs in the US to apply to. An American
citizen isn't going to look at jobs in India for many reasons.

How is it fair that everyone in the world gets to compete for US jobs, but US
citizens only get to compete for US jobs? H1B visas should be limited to the
number of reciprocal visas to US citizens.

------
edem
I am not representative because I had only 3-4 experiences with developers
from India but my two cents include a dev who was not aware how a checkbox
works, an app which was written by devs from India and they used a "secret"
key for authentication which was part of the application distribution (you
could basically use it as-is and bypass authentication), and a PL/SQL backend
which contained 3000 liner stored procedures without documentation. Most
companies think that programming is like manual labor: you can buy a metric
ton of cheap workforce who will get the job done but the reality is much more
grim.

------
sremani
India has to create 12 million jobs every year. Now, let that sink in first.
Offshoring/Outsourcing is basically exporting software services to US and H1-B
and L1 play a complementary role at Infosys, TCS, Wipro et al. India not
getting US contracts both corporate and government IT would be unmitigated
disaster. Yes, the country it self can use some of the Software Engineering
talent for creating services both in its government and corporations, but
unless there is massive investments in localization of software into indic
languages, those services will remain "Colonial" in their character.

The lottery system of H1-B has already ensured the ones getting it are just
lottery winners with a degree in their hand, nothing more and nothing less.

If US can actually ensure the best and bright get H1-B instead of sweatshops
like Infosys/TCS/Wipro, that is beneficial. The argument that the current
regime of Lottery H1-B is actually bringing the best and brightest from India
to US is highly debatable.

------
merpnderp
I had a buddy who came up with the perfect solution for h1b visas. Instead of
a lottery have the highest paid salaries go first and cap the visas at
somewhere around the current average pay for that industry. Fair compromise to
both opposing arguments.

~~~
smb06
This would mean no H1B visas for those graduating straight out of college
because they would have the least salary.

The prepared restriction of $100,000 will do the same because undergrads
aren't going to get $100k straight out of college.

That in turn is going to mean fewer international students in US universities.
If they can't get jobs after spending 4 years and racking up college debt then
they aren't going to come.

If the best and brightest aren't going to come to the US educational system
then the US educational system is going to hurt.

~~~
merpnderp
Giving that isn't the desired outcome of th h1b program that is fine. It's to
bring in labor that isn't being supplied by Americans at a reasonable rate. If
we want to rob other countries of their brightest and most talented minds we
should create another program just for that.

[edit] My personal example of how students are abused under h1b was an old
friend contacted me to do some contract dev work. I quoted him the old Buddy
price of $50/hour since it was academic stat work and was intellectually
stimulating. He balked and said he had only paid his phd post grad student
from Vietnam $25/hour to work on it full time. This is a phd holder in
computer science making $15/hour while working on additional coursework. Not
slavery but not far from it.

~~~
smb06
So, you support the US education system shutting itself to the best talent
from around the world?

Because you can rest assured someone with a 4yr college degree isn't getting a
$100k job outside California and they won't be coming to the US in that case.

Unless you have sat in a classroom and learnt in a multi-cultural environment,
you won't appreciate why learning with people from different backgrounds is
good for you.

------
1024core
A simple solution is to auction off H1-B visas: sort the applications in
decreasing order of salary and take the top 65,000. This'll force companies to
view H1-Bs as hard-to-find talent, instead of cheap talent as it is currently.

------
adventured
This premise is a fantasy. The same exact article previously popped up about
China. I'm getting the impression it's meant more to be propaganda to
preemptively discourage bad policy by pushing the notion that America's tech
golden egg could be swiped by competitors.

The most likely outcome is the H-1B program is modestly increased when it's
revamped, to placate the silicon valley power base that does in fact still
have extremely broad, extremely influential reach in DC (the tech industry is
now by far the largest lobby group overall, surpassing telecom & defense).

~~~
oautholaf
I'd like to believe you, but 'the most likely' outcome has not consistently
happened recently.

Regardless of lobbying, the incoming administration ran a campaign that was
built on anti-immigrant sentiment. Their base wants that. They have to throw
their base something. No one in Silicon Valley voted for them or fundraised
for them.

This could totally happen, and it bothers me as a citizen because a lot of my
co workers are on H1-Bs.

~~~
kevbin
> No one in Silicon Valley voted for them or fundraised for them.

20% of Santa Clara County voted for Trump. 20% of funds raised in Santa Clara
County went to Trump. That's a small fraction by two-party system standards,
but it's not no one.

~~~
DrScump

      20% of funds raised in Santa Clara County went to Trump
    

Can you provide your source for this? (Not being snarky -- I have trouble
finding that level of detail in terms of residence vs. company HQ)

~~~
kevbin
From memory. I'm wrong. 20% went to Republicans, not Trump:
[https://www.opensecrets.org/states/geog.php?cycle=2016&state...](https://www.opensecrets.org/states/geog.php?cycle=2016&state=CA)

Vote % is from the registrar of voters:
[http://results.enr.clarityelections.com/CA/Santa_Clara/64404...](http://results.enr.clarityelections.com/CA/Santa_Clara/64404/184379/Web01/en/summary.html)
(from [https://www.sccgov.org/sites/rov/Pages/Registrar-of-
Voters.a...](https://www.sccgov.org/sites/rov/Pages/Registrar-of-Voters.aspx))

~~~
DrScump

      20% went to Republicans
    

I think that source has issues. The percentages total up to 135% for Santa
Clara County. I'm 112% sure that has an error.

~~~
uiri
For Santa Clara county

Total donations: $59,683,708 Democrat donations: $28,362,650 (47% of Total)
Republican donations: $7,613,361 (13% of Total)

It _is_ weird that the percentage column reports 75% and 20% instead of 47%
and 13% respectively but that exactly accounts for the extra 35%.

------
devoply
At the end of the day let's think about how highly skilled foreign workers are
used.

They are brought to the US, given around 40% less, to work jobs that could
easily be worked by Americans. This helps the company's bottom line, and
that's about it. But if you go and look at the tech companies, they don't
really need help with that, many of those hiring the H1Bs have billions of
dollars that they are sitting on. They could easily pay for American workers,
they just don't want to. In a country of over 300 million people, you don't
need more mediocre talent from India to work at 40% below average wage.

And India needs its talent as well. It's a backwater country that needs a lot
of development. If those developers stay at home, maybe they can help develop
the country. It badly needs it.

So to sum it up, America does not need more talent, it has plenty of its own
in a population of 300 million people. The companies employing these workers
are not employing them for their talent, they are employing them for price
savings. They could afford to pay more. And Americans need more jobs, as the
unemployment rate currently is astronomically high. Indians should stay in
India, the country needs it.

If these people are so above average, then the companies should be willing to
compensate them 40% more for their work. And so create a separate program for
that. Which makes companies pay more for highly sought after talent, as
compared to the locals. Let's see how they respond then.

~~~
stale2002
OK, fine, how about this.

We get rid of ALL limits on visas, as long as they go to people making 100k+
and the company pays a 25k tax to the government.

Win-win for the US, right?

The problem with the H1B visa is that it is a freaking lottery. We should NOT
be assigning these visas randomly.

We should be auctioning them to the highest bidder. That would ensure that
Americans don't get undercut, and the US gains a shit ton of tax revenue.

~~~
smb06
This would mean no visas for the international students graduating out of US
colleges. Someone with a bachelor degree isn't going to get $100k straight off
the bat.

That in turn will drive the best and brightest to stay home and not come to
the US educational system.

~~~
LammyL
You could easily add a clause that says if you have a useful 4 year degree
from the US, the minimum is $75k (or whatever) and 100k for everyone else.
Then new grads wouldn't be at an unfair disadvantage for getting jobs.

~~~
vinay427
It's not trivial to identify useful degrees. Even if you tied this to
professions with low unemployment (jobs in need of workers) you would need
some link between major/program and profession.

Keep in mind, also, that few of the ideas on this thread haven't already been
implemented by some country (Canada, Australia, etc.). It would behoove
politicians to look at the resulting data instead of voting on measures that
affect groups they don't care to understand.

------
santoriv
My brother-in-law (who is from Delhi) had a friend from who went to Brown and
had troubles with his H1-B after he graduated.

He went back to India and created a healthcare startup which now has nearly
100 employees.

If the US was operating in its best interest, it would try to keep the people
it trains in the country.

No country has a monopoly on intelligence and eventually many countries will
catch up to the US. It seems to me that a good way to accelerate the process
would be to kick all of the H1-B folks out.

~~~
vinay427
Assuming the student did not receive notable government scholarships to study
in the US, it wasn't exactly the US training him but his spending his own
money to be trained. This is not the case, of course, for funded PhD
graduates, etc.

------
davidw
On the optimal number of immigrants:
[http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-
number...](http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number-of-
immigrants.html)

------
jstewartmobile
I'm suspicious of anything coming from the WP given that Bezos owns it.

For people who really are the best and brightest, wouldn't they already be
eligible for an O-1 or EB-1?

Primary use of H1-B I see here in Central time is for people without leverage
who can be pushed around. I've known smart guys and dumb guys working here on
that visa, and they both have some asshole dangling that visa over their
heads.

If we really need these people, we should be giving them citizenship.

~~~
mavelikara
> For people who really are the best and brightest, wouldn't they already be
> eligible for an O-1 or EB-1?

No, many of the best and brightest programmers won't qualify for EB-1 or O-1
visas. To understand why, please look up the requirements for these visas and
judge how many of the best and brightest of American programmers you know "in
Central time" would qualify.

> If we really need these people, we should be giving them citizenship.

Or at least a green card.

------
elastic_church
The US has so many work visa programs, that focusing on the "H1B" variant will
be the biggest red herring party pandering possible.

They're all ripe for abuse.

Now there might be a redeeming quality in creating some kind of patch so that
applicants from a signal country can't all apply by January 2nd.

~~~
aub3bhat
Yeah just like the "Chinese Exclusion Act". But maybe not with as overtly
racist name this time.

~~~
mavelikara
If all of EU got counted as a single country for Green Card issuance purposes,
the per-country backlogs would have disappeared long ago :-/

------
dorianm
So what is an "highly skilled worker"? How to define someone who adds a lot of
value to the country?

Personnaly I would rather make this a free market visa where whose who qualify
have to have the higher bid to enter the US. As most of the time, high value
correlates with high salary.

~~~
yxhuvud
Now that is a weird claim of something being a free market if I ever saw one.
Want to make it a free market? Remove the need for a visa. It is as simple as
that.

Auctioning visas may make it into a market, but don't delude yourself that it
would be free.

~~~
davidw
> Auctioning visas may make it into a market, but don't delude yourself that
> it would be free.

Exactly, because auctioning visas presumes some kind of artificial limit to
the number of them, that some politicians pull out of their asses. See
elsewhere for my 'optimal number of immigrants' link, which explains this in
further detail.

------
cylinder
There's no requirement that H1B beneficiaries be "highly skilled."

------
piratebroadcast
Ive been concerned about Zuckerberg and Theil using Trump to get their FWD.us
thing passed and start importing cheap developers here.

