
Narrative Collapse - cetera
https://theconvivialsociety.substack.com/p/narrative-collapse
======
jeromescuggs
i highly recommend the work of adam curtis, in particular his documentary
"bitter lake", and perhaps "hypernormalisation".

he was influenced by baudrillard's critiques of narrative as well, one of
baudrillard's essays that always sticks with me is "pataphysics of the year
2000", in which he predicts the 'news loops' in which narratives are
obliterated in the 24-hour news cycle of our information age.

in the Matrix, at the beginning of the film, Neo hides some discs in a
hollowed-out copy of a Baudrillard work, which isn't coincidental -
baudrillard spent alot of time talking about how narratives often were
confused with reality, though this is a very simplified explanation

my favorite essays he did to critique narrative were a series he did in the
early 90's: -"The Gulf War Will Not Happen" -"The Gulf War Isn't Happening"
-"The Gulf War Didn't Happen"

i might be misremembering the exact titles, but the sort of point he was
trying to make is that in our minds, the 'gulf war' is a story about iraq
invading a country, and us saving the day. The reality of it was so much more
complex, involving centuries of background involving way more participants.

------
blamestross
The most powerful thing I have learned in my adult life is this: "Don't cling
to your narrative"

Making narratives is a survival technique. We simplify and reduce the truth of
our world to abstractions like "narrative" in order to be able to fit them
into our brains and operate on them. Mostly it is a lossy compression.

When we observe facts that contradict a narrative, at best they cause us
anxiety and doubt, for the narrative is a safe place who's shelter is now
known to be a weaker place. At worst, our minds protect us from those facts by
not even allowing our eyes to focus upon them.

If you do you best to admit at a gut level that every narrative you have is
probably wrong, it gets easier to handle it when new facts emerge, and helps
you update your new "working narrative" faster. Don't stop using the tool of
narrative, but don't get attached to this one, they break easy and they are
easy to replace.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Hmm. Your last paragraph sounds like an OODA loop.

I think the "orient" phase of the loop can be viewed as either fitting the
observations into your existing narrative, or else deciding that they don't
fit and constructing a new one. The second option is more expensive, so people
try to make the first one work even when the observations don't really fit.

------
optceramic
Neither we nor the narrative "weavers" can contain or control the truth. If
collectively we reject the truth in favor of wickedness and lies, then this is
what we can always expect to happen in the future. Insomuch as the old
narrative was made up of lies, this also all has an a side that's good and
just.

> If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to
> devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; If my people,
> which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my
> face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and
> will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

> II Chronicles 7:13-14

> Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh
> unto the Father, but by me."

> John 14:6

~~~
blamestross
Yeah, but can you reliably discern garbage that better fits your narrative
than truth does? What good is a truth set free in an ocean of lies and half-
truths? The truth isn't Good or Just, it just kinda awkwardly IS. If you
pursue those NARRATIVES of "Good" and "Just" that have been woven for you, you
will find truth only by luck.

~~~
optceramic
> The truth isn't Good or Just, it just kinda awkwardly IS.

To be more specific, it's the truth without a God that "just kinda awkwardly
is". It's the absolute truth (which is to say the truth with God actually in
the picture) that's without any shadow of a doubt "good and just". The Greek
word "LOGOS" provides us with a fantastic description of this idea:

> Logos is a term in Western philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion
> derived from a Greek word variously meaning "ground", "plea", "opinion",
> "expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "reason", "proportion", and
> "discourse".

It's perfectly commensurate with the bible to say that God is truth, logic,
reason, speech, order, logos, and that he is good (i.e. not evil).

> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
> God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him;
> and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and
> the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the
> darkness comprehended it not.

> John 1:1-4

We also happen to have free will though (in addition to our sinful, limited
human natures), and so he sometimes _allows_ evil to befall us for our own
good... Catholic scholar E. Michael Jones has some extremely prescient
insights on the "Narrative Collapse" that's currently occurring, and how God
can use it all to work for good. :')

> The Coronavirus and the Culture War - E. Michael Jones

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pKxa_5dIfY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pKxa_5dIfY)

> Logos Rising: A History of Ultimate Reality

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMTfBPw6M5c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMTfBPw6M5c)

> E. Michael Jones - The History of Logos and the Logos of History

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4cWZ_6myL8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4cWZ_6myL8)

~~~
blamestross
It seems a some hilarious irony to attempt to use religious arguments in a
discussion about not using a narrative provided for you.

------
downerending
This sounds incisive, but I'm not really smart enough to follow it. Certainly
narrative as "story-telling" seems crucially important. And probably like
many, it's hard for me to see a really satisfying story coming out of what
we're going through. People screaming madly, people being senselessly maimed
and killed. It seems more like tragic chaos.

~~~
unsrsly
A rough summary: narratives are a form of lossy compression that enable us to
make sense of events so that we can plan actions and coordinate with others.
In the past, influential and powerful individuals would compress events into a
Narrative (basically an authoritative version of history) which although it
might have been "false" in some objective sense, and probably oppressed
certain groups of people, nevertheless enabled social consensus. But today,
much more of what happens is recorded (on video, on social media, etc) into
what the author calls the Database. This makes it easy for anyone to point out
the flaws in the Narrative. As a result, there is conflict over which of many
narrative options should become the authoritative Narrative. This can play out
in various ways like censorship (deleting/blocking entries from the Database),
rejecting certain items from the Database as being not true, and even faking
entries in the Database.

~~~
raxxorrax
And yet, if efforts to curtail information would stop, a consensual narrative
might form. It has happened before.

~~~
afarrell
When?

I'm trying to think of some good historical examples of Narrative Collapse
before and all I'm coming up with is the Gutenberg Bible and the Protestant
Reformation. If that _is_ the pattern, then I really hope it doesn't take the
%40+ death toll that the 30-years-war inflicted on Central Europe.

------
t987h
I think people are forgetting a very basic human deficiency that Jeff Bezos
has all his execs understand, and that's Narrative Fallacy.

We put too much pride and ego into what we know, to create a narrative from
the data points we see that might or might not have anything to do with
reality.

We should put less ego into what we know and acknowledge that we know very
little and start from there.

------
spiritplumber
Do a thing: read the Science of Discworld books.

I posit that Terry Pratchett also has a lot to say about narrative causality
as it applies to IRL.

------
alexashka
[deleted]

~~~
butterknife
Thank you for expressing my first impressions. Just to add my opinion, it is
not hard to imagine a small leap from preservation of Narrative, where similar
arguments are weaponised to justify limiting instead of encouraging public
discourse. All in the name of Database hygiene.

~~~
alexashka
I haven't seen any public discourse worth sharing with others online or on
public television in my lifetime.

I'd argue that those who _have_ a narrative worth sharing with the world
that'd rival a book written thousands of years ago like Tao Te Ching, are an
almost extinct species, numbering in the thousands, not millions, on this
planet.

There have never been more highly specialized experts in narrow fields and
never been so few human beings who can combine love, compassionate,
understanding, ability to communicate and a willingness to fight for the
future of our species.

I deleted my response because I've realized I can't even make sense of what
the author was trying say, other than that he's discovered an analogy of
database and the disorganized mess that is the internet. Yes, and what now?
Now we have thousands of words explaining an analogy that leads to nowhere.
Well, great - any fool can point out problems in the world and draw analogies,
it's the solution that's the tricky bit.

