
Working While Female - zorpner
https://medium.com/@nickyknacks/working-while-female-59a5de3ad266#.24dxadggq
======
emsy
It could be entirely the men's fault. However, the article struck me as odd.
She presented the issues seemingly from a moral high ground and overly black
and white. It's somehow always the other's fault (even her helpful coworker).
I get the impression that she's a troublemaker. Visiting her Twitter profile,
she is out and "smashing the patriarchy". I think it's important to hear the
issues of women in the workplace, but we shouldn't let the extremists take
over the conversation.

Reading about a patriarchy in the US makes me escpacially angry, because it
belittles the suffering from women under actual patriarchies.

~~~
prance
It could be entirely my fault. However, your comment struck me as odd. You
presented the issues seemingly from a moral high ground and overly black and
white. It's somehow always the other's fault. I get the impression that you're
a troublemaker. Visiting your HN profile, you're out to convince people that
having free speech implies that denying the Holocaust should be allowed. I
think it's important to hear the issues of commenters such as you, but we
shouldn't let the extremists take over the conversation.

Reading about a lack of a right to deny the Holocaust in Germany makes me
especially angry, because it belittles the suffering and deaths of people who
actually died in the Holocaust and other genocides.

~~~
emsy
You're conflating denying the Holocaust with the freedom to deny the
Holocaust. I put this strawman away and note that you don't have a problem
using millions of Nazi victims to make a point.

------
bArray
The boss was right about the "experiment". It simply wasn't enough proof to
show that sexism exists in the work place.

1\. One experiment run. 2\. Only two participants. 3\. At least one of the
participants had a bias from the start of the experiment.

I find it difficult to believe this happens like this, at least after my
personal experience of women working on par to men. One notable point has
always been that it was men working over time when the opportunity arose,
other than that things were equal. We shared good jokes, we went toe to toe
with work motive. I don't know where people keep finding these places - but I
don't think I ever worked in one.

~~~
peterwwillis
The whole point of the story is the guy who was her ally didn't even believe
that she got treated differently, until he was mistaken for she. You will
forever perceive there is no problem because you will never experience it
first hand, and your lack of this personal experience feeds a confirmation
bias.

~~~
bArray
Maybe, but I do actually talk to both sexed colleagues outside of the
workplace and ask how they're finding work. I find it difficult to believe
they would lie to me, especially the gruntles we do share.

I think we can assume that even if this is the case, it's not the case
everywhere. It's going to not be standard across the globe.

Also, if they share a customer - she may just be bad at her job. It's entirely
possible that she is treated badly because she isn't very good.

It's also entirely possible that this company has shitty customers. Perhaps an
all male company attracts a certain type of customer, that doesn't represent
how all women are treated.

~~~
peterwwillis
Nobody's lying to you. But nobody's going to tell you every time they are
harassed. If you know more than five women, one of them has been sexually
assaulted, and if you know 10, at least one of them has has had to deal with
inappropriate comments or unfair treatment at work. These are of course
statistical generalizations but they usually hold true - in the USA, at least,
I haven't studied other countries' figures.

It's easy to come up with examples of why this whole story might not be
representative of a trend, but there is _a trend of these stories_ , which
gives them more credence when they are backed by the real names of people and
their allies who corroborate them.

And whether a certain type of customer or company or employee/employer mix
makes this happen more often or not is not important. It shouldn't happen in
any situation, to anyone, and in order to reduce these instances, we have to
continue to say that until people change their behavior. This is how social
norms are adjusted - not by ignoring or working around a social problem, but
by specifically speaking out against it publicly, time and again.

~~~
bArray
>Nobody's lying to you. But nobody's going to tell you every time they are
harassed. If you know more than five women, one of them has been sexually
assaulted, and if you know 10, at least one of them has has had to deal with
inappropriate comments or unfair treatment at work. These are of course
statistical generalizations but they usually hold true - in the USA, at least,
I haven't studied other countries' figures.

No they wouldn't, but I would expect it to mentioned at least once? The 1 in 5
are probably not evenly distributed between each company - there's likely
hotspots. From what I can tell, it doesn't hold true for the UK, at least the
jobs I've been in.

>It's easy to come up with examples of why this whole story might not be
representative of a trend, but there is a trend of these stories, which gives
them more credence when they are backed by the real names of people and their
allies who corroborate them.

Not necessarily, it stinks of jumping on the "bandwagon" because of their
density in recent times. I don't understand why women would only just now be
deciding that it's time to speak up. It could also be they now feel able to -
but I couldn't imagine the women I know being anything other than vocal about
mis-representation in the work place.

>And whether a certain type of customer or company or employee/employer mix
makes this happen more often or not is not important. It shouldn't happen in
any situation, to anyone, and in order to reduce these instances, we have to
continue to say that until people change their behavior. This is how social
norms are adjusted - not by ignoring or working around a social problem, but
by specifically speaking out against it publicly, time and again.

I'm not saying it's right, it's just an offering as to why the results may be
biased. That said, if somebody is doing something bad, expect to be treated
badly. Respect is earned, not freely given. If I'm doing a bad job, I expect
the consequences of that to follow. Not every place can be a safe space -
sometimes some grit and honesty is needed to keep things moving.

~~~
peterwwillis
So you think you'll just be sitting at lunch with your female coworker, and
she'll say "Hey Ralph, did I tell you the funny story about last week when I
was with a client going over a report and he told me my tits would look even
better in a low-cut shirt? Pass the salt." Nobody wants to talk about being
humiliated, especially by someone they work with. At the very least they're
humiliated again by talking about it. At worst you actually make a fuss about
it to someone and they may suffer consequences to having told about it.

Women have been speaking up for decades, at various times in various
industries. This is not new. What is new is that women are starting to realize
that a lot of men are bewildered when they learn what's been going on right
under their noses, or that men are outright denying that it's happening. This
pisses women off. So they have started to be more vocal, both inspired by
their peers and as a rejection of the indifference of men.

Yes, it looks like bandwagoning, because it is a form of bandwagoning. Really
it's a classical information cascade. These are very common, and the comment
"Why would this change now?" is an indicator of one. The simplest way to
explain it is that people feel more emboldened when they aren't going to be
the only one in the street fighting for their cause. The more women that share
their stories, the more women are inspired to tell theirs because they don't
fear the humiliation and repercussions as much.

And nobody's saying you shouldn't be chewed out if you do a bad job. What
they're saying is women have to work much harder to gain the same respect a
man gets. It's a very old, common trope that i'm sure you've heard before. To
put it in perspective, have you ever been asked if you had sex to get your
position, or if you're single, or had someone comment on how you look? That is
_one_ aspect. The others are the lower pay, the higher scrutiny of your work
compared to your peers, the smaller representation in management positions and
fewer opportunities to be promoted, and being talked over like you're
invisible. If you don't think it's a common thing, ask all the women you know
each of these things and tick off the boxes.

------
peterwwillis
Why was this flagged? And how do I vote for it to be un-flagged?

The thing I find strange is she doesn't know why the boss would deny it's a
problem even after addressed by multiple people (a man, even!) with actual
evidence. Basically, accepting that the problem is real would imply negative,
potentially painful things about the way he lives his life, treats others, and
his self image, and so he has to cling to any possible excuse to dismiss the
idea so his identity isn't challenged.

It's an ego response. When threatened, the ego shapes your conscious mind's
reality to protect it. It's very similar to the defense mechanism that lets
creationists believe the earth is 6,000 years old and jesus rode dinosaurs.
Even actual evidence to the contrary doesn't phase them. Kind of like the men
in this thread who ridicule the post and ignore the actual point of it that
shows a man experiencing the behavior first hand.

~~~
jbob2000
It's flagged because these "personal issues" articles appear constantly on HN,
and they're all kinda the same. "He said this, I did this, somebody said this,
I didn't like when this happened". It's just noise at this point, it's the
same story but with different actors.

(I get that that in itself is a problem - that the issue isn't going away,
evidenced by the continual posting of this articles - it just becomes a bit
much for a casual internet message board)

~~~
peterwwillis
And you don't find that important? Don't you think seeing these stories
constantly is a necessary part of eventually ending them? If we flag them all
and they disappear, will we have helped end oppression, or helped perpetuate
it? ("Neither" is not an option because flagging is taking direct action)

~~~
jbob2000
Society is moving forward, it's happening. It's not something that's going to
correct itself fully in a day, month, or year. It will take at least another
generation to fully work out these problems, but it's happening.

There's a nice quote that I just read, but I forget the author: "It's easier
to raise strong children than to fix broken adults". This is how we are going
to fix sexism. Not by writing and reading huge personal diatribes. Not by
protesting. Not by affirmative action. But by raising smart, empathetic
children.

~~~
peterwwillis
A human is more complex than that. Even with granola-eating compost-gardening
flower child parents, you can still end up with a hitler youth. The opposite
is true as well. Why? Because parents are not the only influence (thank Bob)
on a developing person.

One of the strongest influences on a person is their peer group. Parents
provide a model, but the peer group is where a lot of people get their core
social values from. It's where you learn how to dress, how to talk, what
sports to play, what music to listen to, and how to treat other people.

But to say "eh, things are getting better, don't worry about it", is
completely antithetical to the idea of not writing personal stories, or
protesting, or affirmative action. Things are getting better _because of these
things_. You didn't grow up in the era of desegregation. You didn't grow up in
the era of women's suffrage. These things took many, many generations to
defeat, and they required long, protracted battles and getting in people's
faces because most people didn't _want_ things to get better.

Yes, we need to raise smart, empathetic children. And we need to bring them to
protest rallies.

------
throwaway399
I feel sorry for her, and her story is probably an example of sexism at the
workplace. That is when her boss says that Martin's style is feminine and that
that is bad.

However, the linked Martin's story is not a good test of sexism, because the
one customer example is anecdotal and sometimes if you pretend to swap
customer reps, you end up with a better experience because the customer feels
like they are "starting over".

The week-long experiment is also a bad example because it is not a double
blind test. Martin could have acted differently than he normally does knowing
that he signs as a female.

And even if they did do a double-blind test, another reason for more rude
replies directed at female employees could be that social expectations are
different. That is the same word choice by people of different genders/sexes
can imply different things. This is not necessarily "bad".

------
LyndsySimon
I find it interesting that the author's male employee had such a terrible
experience - but I'm a man named "Lyndsy", and I have _never_ had such an
experience.

------
andreicon
Pointing out that men are sexist is also sexist. Just my 20k satoshi.

------
prance
The fact that this is flagged gives strong evidence of the truth in this
article.

~~~
dang
Not every article on this topic is equally substantive. The less substantive
ones reliably lead to worse discussion.

In this case I would say the speaking from personal experience makes the
article more substantive, so we turned off the flags.

~~~
vatotemking
Im glad HN has a voice of reason in the form of dang

