
Estimate the cost of a Web, iOS or Android app - dynjo
http://estimatemyapp.com
======
ylg
This seems to me to be estimating the cost to get from a fixed spec to "works
on my machine (or simulator)" rather than the total cost to go from an idea to
shipped product with non-technical stakeholders (whom your estimator is
targeting), a diverse product team, changing understanding of the target,
i.e., all the bits that investors struggle to understand seem to be omitted or
minimized.

I've found in many years of building apps for clients, the easy part is
forecasting simple programming costs. The hard part is helping folks
understand time spent keying in code is only a small part of shipping
successful software--and one of the more predictable ones. So, the cynic in me
reacts with: "great, another over-simplification that instills more of those
unreal expectations that so often cause failure."

Minor points worth reiterating from others:

* The rates are off for areas other than yours (how about making rates/regions an option?). And, I'd make it much clearer that the viewer is likely looking at offshore outsourcing pricing as that is a very, shall we say, unique approach to new product development.

* "Man" hours is a small, visual irritant due to the problematic gender relations and inequities in our field at the moment.

~~~
hyperhopper
"Man hours" is not a visual irritant. It is not saying that only men can do
work. It is not a statement on gender. It is the most common and easiest to
understand way to express an idea. You are being overly pedantic and rabble-
rousing for no good reason.

~~~
ylg
No. I'm making a pedantic (clearly) _suggestion_ about a _small_ visual
irritant for the very good reason that because of the (hopefully) temporarily
toxic environment in our field, some other human beings I care about might
feel a bit put out by the choice of word A over word B. Words or humans? A
different word could have been chosen at zero cost and made someone else feel
better or less bad; so I'll suggest that door thank you--no it doesn't matter
if those put out are being rational, expressing logic compilable by GCC, or
otherwise fit with anyone else's ideas about what is proper and right, because
it cost nothing to do.

I dislike thinking about stuff like this. It's a waste of time and a
distraction from things that truly matter, e.g., Pluto! But, a bunch of jerks
already set the stage and the tune and it behooves those of us wanting to
profit on that stage to be aware.

If you have data or citations to back up the "most common and easiest to
understand" please share, I'm always interested in seeing data. Here's what I
have to offer, for what it's worth:

[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=man-
hour&year_...](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=man-
hour&year_start=1915&year_end=2015)

~~~
fennecfoxen
> I'm making a pedantic (clearly) suggestion about a small visual irritant for
> the very good reason that because of the (hopefully) temporarily toxic
> environment in our field, some other human beings I care about might feel a
> bit put out by the choice of word A over word B.

The problem is that an ugly little debate exists outside of this thread. You
don't actually get to drag in small pieces of pedantry like that in isolation.

So, on the topic of this debate:

There are serious real problems in the world and in the software industry with
people who are jerks, and (in particular, topically) unwelcoming and offensive
to women. This is a very bad thing. And there are people who wish to fix this
by changing the language we use. That's a legitimate position to propose and
advance.

It's also a legitimate position to object to. But there are those come into
the discussion wielding the hammer of Moral Authority, and often they suggest
that if you _fail to join the crusade_ to change a word like "man-hours" then
you're an ignorant bigot riding high on all your privilege (you can already
find some posts on this thread suggesting ideas from this group). Really, it
isn't _strictly_ about treating women decently, it's about demanding your
subscription to and endorsement of a particular worldview and series of
political prescriptions... it's about securing _power_ and finding ways to
stifle your opponents and detractors.

A POX ON BOTH YOUR HOUSES.

~~~
jellicle
I think even your strawmen have strawmen.

~~~
fennecfoxen
100%, and that's what you get condensing a minor culture war into a paragraph
or two on the Internet :P

------
CameronBanga
Biggest issue I have is that for anyone who uses this calculator, they will
always see their app as "small" when it's really medium or large. Non-
technical project stake holders will never grasp the depth of what they want
built.

Second big issue is that there really isn't a good way in this calculator to
estimate/account for proper testing and subsequently, time spent when a client
changes their mind on a feature and wants to redesign/re-work.

~~~
skazka16
I wonder if they could add a "weight" to each feature and then automatically
determine the application size summarizing all the weights.

------
amichal
Love the concept not sure the math works out:

Maxed out iOS app shows:

35 person-days UI/UX + 162 person-days dev = $88,650

$88,650 / (35 person-days + 162 person-days) / 8 hr/day = $56.25/hr per person
average cost.

Assuming the labor estimate is correct, if anyone knows of iOS developers
skilled enough to pull that off for 56.25/hr fully-loaded labor costs I'd like
to meet them. (e.g. who is coordinating the work and working with the client
on evolving specs/feedback)

~~~
dynjo
We are based in Bangkok :-)

~~~
amichal
I understand and I know it's just an estimating tool but are you saying I can
hire your team to deliver a gold-plated does everything iOS app with
geolocation, health and sensor inputs, a top-notice design, etc including the
detailed functional requirements (we all know what clients think is a complete
specification), tested and delivered in the app store for 1,576hrs of billable
work at $56/h total cost to me including any overhead you may have (like your
market street sf office)?

~~~
dynjo
Our hourly works out slightly more than this, but yes the economics work
because of the geo-arbitrage.

We are actually a 6 year old western company based in Bangkok. We have worked
with many big name startups very successfully.

~~~
lords
Any names to mention checked your site and didn't see much.

------
duiker101
Holy sh... I have to say, I am very bad at making estimates. I don't work
freelance but it happened that I had to make some projects for people. I tried
to estimate the cost of some applications that I made/make in my spare time
and the average is way way way higher than I would have ever charged anyone...
I need to reconsider my prices...

Which is amazing to be honest, making prices I really hard for me and a tool
like this can be an amazing opportunity to find my value. Thanks

~~~
krschultz
Do you think the results from this tool are HIGH? I went through a couple
different apps I know and thought the estimate provided by the page needed to
be multiplied by 3-5.

The default rates are $56 an hour. For Android/iOS developers, I know a dozen
people making $100-200 an hour.

It's a great tool (and note you can actually adjust your price at the bottom),
but I would consider all of the quotes around time & rate as the low end.

~~~
sokoloff
duiker's comments were more along the lines of how he's been underquoting.

Extremely common among early (or occasional) SWE freelancers IME, myself
included.

IME, you can get to a point where you tally everything up and it comes to
$65K, and then you start thinking, well this would be a fun side gig, and I
have some free time I otherwise waste, and I sure could buy something cool
with even $25K (after tax), and some of my estimates might be a little on the
fat side, and this is a buddy (or isn't well funded, or both), and coding is
fun enough that I sometimes do it for free anyhow, so I'll bid $45K.

And you've not accounted for the inevitable yak shaves, scope creep items,
etc, but you got the work for $30K less than you should/could have.

------
fullwedgewhale
So having done cost estimation before, this is horrible. About all it would be
good for is the initial swag at brochure ware. Generally speaking cost
estimates should never be a fixed point and should be done in a range, with
assumptions (that when violated) would allow the cost numbers to change. In
addition, there's no measurement of complexity through requirements. Basically
all these estimators are useful for only the simplest software projects with
extremely limited requirements and scope. The cost of the software is a
function of the known requirements which are carefully enumerated during
costing to generate some sort of complexity model. (For example, function
point analysis). That's fed into a cost model that translates that complexity
model into a dollar range. That interval is then used to generate a final,
contractual, number. But notice all the work that went into that estimate.
What's more is that the estimate is refined during the work such that new data
is incorporated into the complexity model, allowing changes in scope or
requirements to be re-priced.

~~~
dynjo
To be clear, this does not replace an official estimate (we also do not like
fixed estimates and prefer agile pricing). What it does give though is
_ballpark_ ideas for people with no information at all. Oozou is a 6 year old
agency, we understand the problem deeply but wanted to give people something
to get started without full blown proposals, RFP's etc

~~~
fullwedgewhale
I view it as dangerous because it spits out a definitive answer without clear
explanation of the model used to generate the estimate. If you look at other
cost estimation tools (even closed source tools) will explain the model and
assumptions used to generate the estimate. You can then make the determination
if the model and assumptions apply to you.

It also doesn't indicate the kind of application (which is probably a largely
stand-alone application). You can't stop some clients from going on to these
sites and looking up a cost and not understanding what goes into an estimate.
What would be even worse, in my mind, is to have other developers use a tool
like this to generate a cost and then fail because they grossly underestimate
complexity.

~~~
nostrademons
It does explain the model - each feature is given a certain number of
developer days that are billed out at $450/day. It's all broken down if you
click "show calculations".

I personally think their model is pretty shitty, because if you build an app
as a checklist of features you'll end up with something users won't want to
use, and if you polish all the rough edges and make sure everything integrates
well together, you will spend a lot more time on integrations than on
implementing the features. (My rule of thumb - across many projects - is that
when a project is feature-complete, it is usually between 40-50% shippable.
When it ships, it is about 50% "done", where "done" means that all the initial
development tasks required to make it stable and useful to users are complete.
When it's "done", it's consumed roughly 10% of the calendar time and 50% of
the developer time that will ultimately be invested in the project.)

But you can at least judge the model they're using for yourself.

------
CSEngineer13
This is a pretty solid resource for freelance devs to mid-sized digital
agencies. It falls short for more complicated applications that require custom
architecture, a consultation piece, etc.

I think a lot of agencies/shops could benefit by creating a version of this
that fits their pricing model based on previous projects -- Not as a hard
estimate, but as a ballpark figure.

~~~
dynjo
Yep, we aimed for rough and simple. Really to give indicative ideas. Actually
surprisingly hard for non-tech people to find this information.

------
FryHigh
There are so many websites that do the same.

[http://www.kinvey.com/app-cost-estimator](http://www.kinvey.com/app-cost-
estimator)

[https://www.otreva.com/calculator/](https://www.otreva.com/calculator/)

[http://howmuchtomakeanapp.com](http://howmuchtomakeanapp.com)

~~~
avivlander
[http://perfectedtech.com/calculator/](http://perfectedtech.com/calculator/)

~~~
andreasley
That certainly looks like it was inspired by mine:
[https://www.andreasley.ch/en/costcalculator/](https://www.andreasley.ch/en/costcalculator/)

I take that as a compliment. :)

------
joshcanhelp
Not to detract from the tool but ... $56/hour default? That's low for any
competent development, let alone iOS.

~~~
BillinghamJ
That's arguably low in the valley. Everywhere else, it's on the high side.

~~~
empthought
It's low (too low) everywhere in the US.

------
x1024
Doesn't work.

XMLHttpRequest cannot load
[https://d3h99m5mv5zvgz.cloudfront.net/api/v1/features/list](https://d3h99m5mv5zvgz.cloudfront.net/api/v1/features/list).
No 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header is present on the requested resource.
Origin '[https://estimatemyapp.com'](https://estimatemyapp.com') is therefore
not allowed access.

~~~
dynjo
Ouch! sorry about that, which browser/OS are you on if you don't mind me
asking?

~~~
axx
Same here, Mac OS 10.10.3 and Firefox 39. But also doesn't work in Chrome
(newest).

Good idea though! :)

------
keedot
This is great. I can finally send people here when they think getting a site
up can be paid for with a case of beer.

~~~
colinbartlett
Hey man I got a great app idea I am gonna let you in on. First, I need you to
sign this NDA. I'll buy you lunch and tell you about. When this thing hits
big, there could be a job in it for you. But for now, if you build the app
I'll give you 5% of the company. When we sell this puppy, you're gonna be rich
dude!!

~~~
hluska
Oh wait....you think that my advertising based business model is completely
impossible and consider this the worst idea you have ever heard?? Well, you're
clearly not very competent...:)

------
CodeSheikh
I hope none of my future clients come to me with a reference to this app for
cost estimation. This estimation is vague and garbage. Good effort though.

------
brandonmenc
They must be trying to undercut everyone else, because those prices are way
too low. I wonder how many times they go over these budgets themselves.

------
kemiller
I don't buy that Android is less than iOS for development, unless it's
reflecting some shared work.

~~~
CameronBanga
Second this. Done over 140 mobile apps, and never found Android projects to
fall below iOS with time cost.

------
berns
Lets see... web app... small... click here... click there... one more click...
$ 14.000 I don't know what I've been doing the last 25 years but now I know
that I need the next 7 years to be a millionaire. Thank you!

------
AznHisoka
Yep, it costs $38,000 to make a Google.

Except you won't have the search algorithm, machine learning algorithms, and
Hadoop stuff. But at least you'll just have a nice polished UI, with
integration with Facebook, Twitter and Google+!

------
ommunist
Curiously the page does not work on iPad in built-in HN browser. Anyway, its
priceless since will give exact answer to most of those wanting "my own
branded messenger, and I only have €500 for this".

------
marpalmin
We have a similar concept, with a far less fancy estimator.
[http://www.decemberlabs.com/appEstimator.html](http://www.decemberlabs.com/appEstimator.html)
I think these estimators are good at helping non savvy potential customers tu
understand the actual costs of making an app.

------
j45
What I like about this is it introduces the concepts that can impact mobile
app development to a crowd that has no way to know where one feature ends and
another starts. If it's meant to be a conversation starter, I bet it might for
non-experts.

------
dynjo
By popular request, 'man days' has now been banished from the site :-)

In our defence: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-
hour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-hour)

------
omouse
This is clever but it definitely needs to be backed by real data and adjusted
in the future. This would be a great use case for all the data that's been
collected for research into programmer productivity!

------
buro9
Would love to see examples of their work, showing how that translates into the
options in the estimation tool.

i.e. What is their definition of "polished"?

~~~
dynjo
[https://slimwiki.com](https://slimwiki.com)

------
hcbogdan
Site with Access-Control-Allow-Origin header error:

XMLHttpRequest cannot load
[https://d3h99m5mv5zvgz.cloudfront.net/api/v1/features/list](https://d3h99m5mv5zvgz.cloudfront.net/api/v1/features/list).
No 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header is present on the requested resource.
Origin '[https://estimatemyapp.com'](https://estimatemyapp.com') is therefore
not allowed access.

~~~
tonyjstark
same for me, Mac OS 10.10.3 with FirefoxDeveloperEdition, but also with Safari

------
quakenou
Most sites do it already:

[http://www.compesis.com/](http://www.compesis.com/)

------
sarciszewski
So, if we go off the market rates for a business consultant skilled at
developing a web application ($1k to $2k per day per consultant), and plug in
the numbers here:

35 Man Days UX/UI Design -> probably $35k to $70k

178 Man Days Development -> $178k to $356k

The total cost is: $208k to $416k

The calculator's estimate: $95,850

So the actual cost is going to be anywhere from 2x to 5x higher than what this
projects.

~~~
dynjo
We are based in Bangkok. btw you can plug your own rates in at the bottom
"Show Details"

------
slamus
I'm against this website.

------
jheriko
really doesn't fit my style of apps at all. but i can see how this might be
useful for cookie cutter style work...

------
evook
Is there any advantage over an excel sheet?

------
nso95
Why the hell don't the buttons work on mobile safari?

~~~
dynjo
Seem ok here on mobile safari?

~~~
nso95
Using an iPad here

------
onion2k
I chose an iOS app with every option, and then added an Android app with every
option. The price doubled. I guess that means Oozou will charge you twice for
designing or coding assets that'll be reused between platforms.

~~~
s73v3r
You can't straight up share most things between platforms. You have to adjust
layouts and resources into the sizes and formats dictated by the platforms.

~~~
onion2k
I wasn't suggesting the price should be the same for developing both, just
that it isn't double. You can share design assets, logic, algorithms, etc. For
a complex app that stuff is actually what takes most of the time - but you
only have to do it once regardless of how many platforms you end up deploying
to.

------
oliwarner
There are some outrageous time estimates in this. 7 days to create an auth
system with the big 3 social integrations? 6 days for private messaging? 2
days to dump a prefab social sharing blob in your template?! I'd do all of
that in a morning.

I'd just be careful if you're considering using this to quote your jobs. If
somebody working for me quoted these sorts of numbers, I'd fire them on the
spot. I wouldn't even give them a second chance. It would clearly demonstrate
you didn't know what you were talking about.

~~~
danenania
You could do it all in a morning if you didn't do any of the following:

\- Create and implement a high fidelity design.

\- Include the project-specific requirements that every feature has... the
auth system needs to work via ajax, connect with a legacy db, and include
animated transitions. Private messaging needs responsive design and realtime
updates. Etc. etc. etc.

\- Deal with scope creep, clarifications of the specs, and hours of related
discussions.

\- Write automated tests.

\- Do live QA.

\- Fix inevitable bugs, browser and device inconsistencies, ux problems, etc.
etc. etc.

\- System administration and deployment.

\- Load testing, caching, performance tuning.

If a client tried to tell me I should be able to do all this in a morning, I'd
fire THEM on the spot.

~~~
oliwarner
You're not reading what I said. The design is accounted for elsewhere in the
calculations (that's actually a bit closer to the mark) and that includes many
of the things you're talking about above.

My "morning", is literally plugging django-social-auth, a custom User Model, a
private messaging Model and few views to make it all work.

I'll grant you that testing might eat up the afternoon, but these are all
solved problems that ship in libraries, many of which include their own tests.

Perhaps the people downvoting need to change how they build stuff.

~~~
danenania
The result of your single morning would be a clunky ux that no one wants to
use (or pay for). No one's saying you can't get a good start on the data model
and basic skeleton in a single morning, but only someone who's never produced
working, polished software would contend a finished and tested feature of any
significant complexity at all could be truly finished in a morning.

The people downvoting you live in reality...

