
Pompeo tells Congress Hong Kong is no longer autonomous from China - JumpCrisscross
https://www.axios.com/pompeo-hong-kong-autonomous-china-aa719c5e-b6e7-4ce5-a56f-c3c276513927.html
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fleeing_hk
So I've finally convinced my wife that it's time to leave.

As a 40 year old software eng manager, where should I go? My top choice at the
moment is London as my wife has British citizenship and several of my wife's
friends are in Europe; I also have access to the E-3 visa so the US is also an
option.

~~~
OmarIsmail
Come to Canada.

Specific tech hot spots are Vancouver/Waterloo/Toronto/Montreal. The weather
and healthcare are things you need to get used to, but gorgeous environment
with friendly, diverse, and well educated population.

~~~
PopeDotNinja
What are salaries for top quartile developers in Canada?

~~~
gregsadetsky
Average of ~~60-70k CAD in Toronto, depending on experience, specific domain,
etc.

Levels.fyi shows a much higher median of 130k USD for the whole country, but
is also based on many FAANG jobs -- [https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-
Engineer/Canada/](https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Canada/)

See also
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11806441](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11806441)

~~~
srle
The 130k USD is 1000% actually supposed to be CAD.

Canadian salaries are pretty awful, and it’s not uncommon to see job listings
looking for a sr eng with 8 years of exp and offering like 90-110k.

Outliers exist, but even for top tier companies Canadian compensation is gonna
be lower.

Not a bad place if you’ve got persistent health issues or maybe if you want to
raise a family, but other than that it’s pretty shitty IMO. I’m personally
going to try my hardest to move down south as soon as this corona stuff starts
settling down.

~~~
hopfscotch
There is political violence on the horizon in the US. I would not come here.
I'm looking for a way out myself.

~~~
jnbiche
I agree. I'm surprised more HNers aren't aware of this potential. To be clear,
I condemn those pushing us toward political violence, but it has a decent
chance of arriving in the next 6-12 months even.

~~~
sizzle
That's a big claim, please provide some sources if you are to be believed
otherwise it's just unsubstantiated fear mongering

~~~
jnbiche
So the Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct headquarters was just overrun, weapons
seized, and burned down by hundreds of citizens. National Guard and SWAT are
en route.

Are you still so sure about the idea of internal civil strife being
"unsubstantiated fear mongering"?

And by the way, race-based civil conflict is only a small part of the
structural problems I'm worried about. There are multiple deeper, more
dangerous threats on the horizon.

For example, are you sure that Trump will peacefully vacate the office if he
loses the election? If not, what exactly do you think will happen then?

Finally, not that this matters a whole lot to me, but to provide you with
"substantiation" that you may accept, many mainstream media outlets have
covered this in detail in the past year or two. Here are just a couple, Google
keywords such as "US civil war 2" (just "civil war" turns up Avengers stuff)
and "boogaloo" for more mainstream media coverage:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-america-talk-
turn...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-america-talk-turns-to-
something-unspoken-for-150-years-civil-
war/2019/02/28/b3733af8-3ae4-11e9-a2cd-307b06d0257b_story.html)

[https://www.macleans.ca/society/america-is-deeply-divided-
an...](https://www.macleans.ca/society/america-is-deeply-divided-and-some-say-
its-only-going-to-get-worse/)

------
giarc
I don't understand, doesn't this play into China's hand? China is trying to
undermine it's automony, now US is staying they are the same? Isn't this
giving China what it wants?

EDIT Saw this in a Reddit thread by /u/CleverNameTheSecond

HK was one of the few ways China can evade US sanctions as HK is considered an
autonomous entity for trading purposes. If HK is considered not autonomous the
US can levy the same sanctions as they do on mainland China. They probably
don't want this in the grand scheme of things.

~~~
fleeing_hk
Correct, the US (and by extension its allies) considered Hong Kong separately
from the rest of China in areas like export controls and trade tariffs.[1]

China took full advantage of this, and the US is probably betting that
revoking this special status hurts China more than it hurts the US.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Hong_Kon...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Hong_Kong_Policy_Act)

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Analemma_
I wonder if this will cause any political discomfort in the UK. Everyone knows
that the UK is failing to enforce the terms of the Joint Declaration because
they have no leverage, but they sort of quietly pretend this isn't happening,
which will be untenable after this declaration.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
The "no leverage" will still be true. It's just that they won't be able to
pretend any longer.

On the other hand, they didn't have enough leverage to change things when they
signed the Joint Declaration, and the people who signed it are no longer in
power. So maybe they'll just act like it's no change, because they knew it all
along.

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Hokusai
Is this good news for Taiwan finances as can replace Hong Kong? Or is it just
the begging of the end as Taiwan is next in China’s list?

~~~
ipnon
I recommend you read Bloomberg's "Taipei's Too Cool to Be China's Banker"[0]
from their series on which Asian financial centers could replace Hong Kong.
The author David Fickling concluded that Taiwan is not the most likely
replacement. He believes Singapore is the most likely candidate.

[0] [https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-opinion-will-
tokyo-t...](https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-opinion-will-tokyo-taipei-
singapore-be-next-hong-kong/taipei.html)

~~~
SenHeng
How times change. Back in 2012, many of the expat bankers I knew were
abandoning Singapore for Hong Kong.

~~~
ipnon
Don't they change fast!

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bogomipz
The "Hong Kong Policy Act Reports" from the US State Department can be found
here if anyone is interested:

[https://hk.usconsulate.gov/our-relationship/official-
reports...](https://hk.usconsulate.gov/our-relationship/official-reports/)

It's unclear why there's a gap from 2007-14 though.

~~~
remarkEon
That is ... an interesting observation.

Was that office just not staffed for that period?

~~~
bogomipz
My guess is that original legislation maybe only required to be be submitted
annually for that time period:

>In 1993 and annually from 1995 through 2007, the Department of State
submitted reports to Congress, pursuant to the Hong Kong Policy Act of 1992,
as amended (the Act). This report responds to the requirement in the House
explanatory report 113-499 accompanying H.R. 5013, the State, Foreign
Operations, and Related Programs Appropriations Bill, FY2015. The following
highlights key developments since June 2007."[1]

[1]
[https://2009-2017.state.gov/p/eap/rls/reports/2015/240585.ht...](https://2009-2017.state.gov/p/eap/rls/reports/2015/240585.htm)

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a_c
Can anyone working in HK startups comment on how this law impact their
business? Talent acquisition, morale, anything?

I am working in one of the HK startup so am eager to learn what do you guys
think

~~~
woutr_be
I reckon a lot of founders will be reluctant to start their business in HK,
the same way people aren't starting companies in China. Talent will be harder
to come by, there's very little incentive to move to HK if it becomes more
like China. (You might as well move to China if you want that experience)
People who want to live in Asia, but still be fairly international will just
pick Singapore, or even Taipei or Tokyo.

Morale already took a big hit in the last year during the protests, and it was
clearly noticeable, both in the workplace and in the city. Everything felt a
bit more grim. Conversations were always skewed towards discussing politics,
and it such a noticeable divide in society, those conversations often end in
arguments. There's many stories of people losing friends, and families
splitting up over this.

I think it will take some time to see the real effects, if people will start
emigrating away or if companies will choose to move their HQs. But the outlook
is definitely fairly grim at the moment.

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0x8BADF00D
This is just posturing. Pompeo is a notorious war hawk who wants to incite
wars with so-called enemies of the United States. Luckily our President is
peace minded, and such tricks don’t work very well on him. At least for now.

Additionally, I don’t understand why the US is trying to antagonize China.
It’s important to be tough on trade, but we should keep our geopolitical
rivals very close. All this move does is punish HK and (possibly) anger China.
Truthfully they probably don’t care, it’s a blip on the radar.

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comprev
Consider Manchester, UK. Great tech scene with easy access to some of the most
beautiful landscapes in England (Peak District; Lake District).

London would be the last place on my UK list.

~~~
thejynxed
Well, unless you're doing tech work for the banks and exchanges, in which case
going anywhere else in the UK except London would be silly.

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ausbah
If the US really wants to show its support for Hong Kong, I think offering
expedited immigration for interested . vulnerable citizens might do the trick.
Like the US withdrawal during the Fall of Saigon taking a large number of
vulnerable South Vietnamese citizens with them.

~~~
BurningFrog
> _If the US really wants to show its support for Hong Kong_

Hong Kong is lost.

But its people can still be saved.

~~~
hitpointdrew
> Hong Kong is lost.

With that attitude it certainly is. Maybe if we had the balls to sanction
China for its myriad of human rights violations, or you know do what we have 0
problems doing in the middle east, provide arms and training to resisting
movement (but I guess we only have to balls to do that when the country poses
no real military threat to us).

~~~
remarkEon
What are you talking about.

We've been levying tariffs against China in a carrot and stick approach for
the last 3 years. We're basically extorting the rest of our NATO allies to
block Huawei hardware from being used for 5G implementation. The US is
currently trying to get their CFO extradited from Canada to stand trial for
bank fraud. We continue to support Taiwan militarily, with arms sales and
joint training opportunities and have been since the Cold War (the first one,
that is). Looks like we're actually giving them Main Battle Tanks now for the
first time ever, if this wikipedia page is to be believed.[1]

I hear you, that I'd like a harder stance taken on China as well - but that
probably means going after US companies that do business there. I'm fine with
this, but it's a much harder pill to swallow for many. Otherwise your only
option is overt military intervention in Hong Kong. And that doesn't seem
worth it for Americans.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_arms_sales_to_Taiwa...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_arms_sales_to_Taiwan)

~~~
thejynxed
Not just bank fraud, but physical theft of prototype equipment from a US
research partner.

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tmaly
This will definitely reek havoc on the global economy.

~~~
ra1n85
It's wreak.

And you're probably right. Hong Kong's status made it home to a lot of the
financial engineering of commerce between China and the west. With it losing
its status, I think a lot of the financial machinery in HK is about to come
undone. Singapore will likely benefit, to some degree, from this move. The
world and China may need to find new markets and suppliers in the short term.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
Doesn't China have more to lose by giving up HK's special status versus
absorbing into China's larger political apparatus?

~~~
ra1n85
Yes, I would imagine so. HK seemed to be the only conduit through which trade
with the west could flow smoothly. It will be interesting to see how this
plays out.

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A4ET8a8uTh0
About 6 months ago I was telling my friend that US is moving towards war with
Iran in 2 years and China in ten. Clearly, for whatever reason, that schedule
has been accelerated.

The comparisons to cold war seem apt and given that US president was recently
asked about what he talked about with Putin ( and the response, among others,
was borders ). That sent a chill down my spine. How was this question not
followed up is beyond me.

We have been moving towards a confrontation for a while now and this move will
not make it less likely. I am not trying to defend China's moves, but
realistically, what are the odds China will surrender to international
pressure campaign?

~~~
macspoofing
>I was telling my friend that US is moving towards war with Iran in 2 years
and China in ten

It takes two tango. Is Iran and/or China doing anything on their part to move
us closer to war?

~~~
A4ET8a8uTh0
Poland circa 1939 would beg to differ. I am not trying to be difficult, but
your statement is easily countered.

edited: changed refuted to countered; seems more accurate

~~~
myth_drannon
Poland was not so innocent, it was an aggressive state actor. Together with
Germany, it invaded Czechoslovakia.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie#Part_of_Poland_(1938%E...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie#Part_of_Poland_\(1938%E2%80%931939\))

~~~
A4ET8a8uTh0
I do not want to respond too harshly, but the question was whether it takes
one to tango. And it does. Germany did not need Poland's permission to invade.
All Germany needed is a moment it considered favorable. Everything else is an
excuse used for public consumption ( and if you look at Iraq and Iran, the
parallels become obvious ).

As for the aggressive actor part, I will leave it for now ( it does not add to
conversation and since I am not a historian, I can't authoritatively say that
comparatively speaking Poland was the nice guy on the block ).

~~~
thejynxed
They also left out the part that Poland invaded and took exactly back that
which Czechoslovakia had invaded Poland and taken only a few years before
during WWI.

