
A turning point for GNU libc - corbet
http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/488847/cb91a5cc3d179f3c/
======
luriel
> The kernel may be the core of a Linux system, but neither users nor
> applications deal with the kernel directly.

The amount of complexity in a modern libc, glibc in particular, is mind-
boggling.

One thing I love about Go is that it completely bypasses even libc, the Go
runtime and stdlib use syscalls directly(well, except on Windows, for obvious
reasons), in a way a Go program is "closer to the metal" than a C program.

~~~
drucken
Unfortunately, Go with its mandatory GC is about as appropriate for systems
programming as Java, regardless of how its marketed...

~~~
burgerbrain
For the more traditional definitions of "systems programming", yes. I would
agree with that.

However I don't think anybody is really marketing Go for that niche.

~~~
wglb
Originally they were targeting "systems programming", and, being roughly the
contemporary of the most well-known go authors, "systems programming" used to
mean compilers, assemblers, and the like. In this meaning, this would also
include browsers, although Mozilla is going for Rust.

Today, "systems programming" is more taken to mean "kernel programming", and I
don't get the sense that is what was meant by the senior authors of go.

~~~
acqq
I always believed "system programming" meant "programming operating system
components or the whole operating system" and Wikipedia seems to agree:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_programming>

Last time I looked, inside of the Go libraries which had to do some tricky
things there was some C code, meaning that even Go authors weren't able to
write everything in Go. So Go can't be a substitute for C, and as long as most
of the system programming is done in C, no go for Go.

~~~
4ad
That's like saying C is not a system programming language because if you write
a kernel you need to write parts of it in assembly, and you need to write
parts of libc in assembly as well!

Parts of the runtime are written in C and assembly, but that's because there
is power in breaking abstractions: <http://research.swtch.com/goabstract>

As it stands today, Go can be used to write operating systems. Yes, you will
have assembly, yes you will likely also have C, so what?

------
sneak
I think the news here should be "lots of normal people are still surprised
that the FOSS movement is littered with uncooperative sperglords everywhere
you look".

The deeper and more complex a project, the higher my expectation for this type
of behavior. I imagine a big venn diagram of "manages ultra-complex software
in use by millions" and "social skills". Linus, of course, being the shining
counterexample.

Seriously though, anyone familiar with FOSS projects should be entirely
unsurprised by this. If you think I'm joking, go read some of Stallman's rants
or peruse esr's "how to have sex" faq.

~~~
joshu
sperglords is a term i plan to use in the future.

(i think you mean a disjoint venn diagram)

------
16s
These links (not mine) may help explain a lot to those who may be unfamiliar
with Ulrich: <http://urchin.earth.li/~twic/Ulrich_Drepper_Is_A_.html>

~~~
zoul
Sweet Jesus, things like this really illustrate some dark corners of free
software development:

<http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4980>

Where the high-publicity trolling in the later part of the discussion is even
worse than Uli's initial stubborness.

------
justauser
Is eglibc likely to merge into glibc?

I was under the impression that one of the reasons Debian moved from glibc to
eglibc was friction with the project maintainer.

~~~
adestefan
From what I've been reading, there will be efforts to remerge.

------
rcfox
Are you sure you should be submitting "LWN subscriber-only content"?

It seems like they might not be too happy about that.

~~~
corbet
Check my account name against the author of the article :)

I appreciate your concern. I do occasionally post a subscriber link in a place
like HN or reddit with the idea of sharing some useful news and making people
aware of what we do. So you shouldn't be worrying about me abusing the LWN
subscriber link mechanism (which I implemented in the first place); instead,
you should worry about my shameless and transparent marketing efforts :)

~~~
sounds
Could you please comment on the appropriateness of other subscribers sharing a
link like this?

Within certain bounds - glibc being a good example - the general interest in
the article might justify its widespread use.

I would hazard a guess that for the majority of articles, LWN would prefer
subscriber links be kept relatively "out of public circulation."

Thanks!

~~~
cube13
Keep in mind that the content stays behind the paywall for 1 week before non-
subscribers can access it. So unless a paid subscriber is posting links to
every single article, I don't think it's that much of an issue for LWN.

So given that it's really only subscribers-only for about 24 hours more(the
original article was posted on March 28th, I don't think that LWN cares all
that much.

------
jbarham
"Also significant is the fact that Ulrich left Red Hat in September, 2010;
...he is now VP, Technology Division at Goldman Sachs."

For me this is the punch line to the story. I wonder how he's liking wearing a
shirt and tie to the office.

~~~
duaneb
If I remember his temperament correctly, he'll love it on Wall Street. He'll
have an entire division to yell at.

