
Why are crime victims being jailed? - mediumdeviation
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39662428
======
zw123456
As someone who is 1)Rich(relatively) 2)White, and who has been falsely
accused, and harassed by the police for idiotic reasons, I have an enormous
amount of sympathy. I went through something similar a couple of times in my
life where I had to fight to prove my innocence against incompetent and
frankly really stupid police officers who where in my opinion, mainly big
assholes who just wanted to bully people. I can say that had I not been pretty
wealthy and able to afford lawyers I am pretty sure they would have fucked me
over. Once something like that happens to you, you start to sort of understand
how someone less fortunate can really get screwed over pretty easily.

~~~
vinbreau
Same here. I was once assaulted by a police officer on the property where my
father worked. The cop was employed as security and did not wear his badge
openly. He was dressed in civilian clothes with his badge on his belt, behind
his back. He verbally accosted me on a visit to my dad's place of work. Not
knowing he was a cop I let him know where to go. He grabbed me, bent my arm
behind my back and shoved me face first through hard metal doors. My father
was livid and got in on the argument, on my side. I had bruises all over my
face, neck and arms. I filed a complaint against him, but a week later he was
part of the largest cocaine bust in my town's history. As a result he was
beyond reproach. I've got a few other encounters like this, though not as bad.
Not all cops I've run in with were bad, some were more than reasonable, but
the bad encounters outweigh the good at least 3 to 1. Give a power tripping
person a badge and a gun, hide them behind the blue code and the average
civilian has little to no recourse.

~~~
zw123456
It is interesting, almost everyone I know has a story where some cop abused
there authority. When people start sharing their stories, it is always amazing
to me how many people chime in with similar encounters. Until it happens to
you, people don't realize how frightening and scaring it is. I completely feel
for you. I was physically ill for weeks after my encounter. I believe that it
is a problem that is far more pervasive than maybe is realized.

~~~
happynomad
I am in a somewhat similar situation. The article talks of Mitchell fearing
for his life due to police unwilling to protect him. I had a nasty string of
events happen to me that also left me fearing for my life and unemployed
(threatened after I quit my job... I quit twice, first time they nearly
doubled my salary, second they said: 'you are going to not be able to keep a
job ever again.' Months later at my new job I started receiving violent
threats, then people violently broke into my office--nothing was stolen.) I
notified the police, I asked them if they could look into--there were video
cameras, and they could see who broke in and chased after me as I hurried out
the emergency exit. They didnt investigate anything, or even record the break
in as a crime AFAIK. I was then told I was being be fired for the break in
occurring after I was told not to report it, but said that I did anyways
("this has nothing to do with you performance here in your job duties"). both
were relatively small companies.

There is a lot more that was happening at that time, and it went from
concerning to blatant to surreal. I was stalked/followed home by unsavoury-
looking people. Men were knocking on my door speaking inaudibly and sometimes
in Spanish. My tires had oil smeared all over them one time and had been
overinflated. This is not inclusive of everything that happened. I called the
police repeatedly and nobody did anything. I dont know how to get these
concerns raised to anyone that cares.

Eventually I left the country and have been living abroad a couple of years
since then. I am not really sure what to do without a job reference as a mid
career male, but I get by in my days by meeting so many nice people and going
to such beautiful places and trying to forget about what happened. I dont know
if I can find a real job again and I think my life will be basically over if I
cant. Im thankful for everything, but to be honest, I want to work again and
am not sure how to recover from this in terms of career.

I havent talked about this with anyone, but when I read this I thought I'd
chime in. Enforcing law and peace with prudence is important enough that when
it isn't done right, people like Mitchell and I experience our lives are
transformed and we are unemploued. In the meantime, terrible people are
enabled. Police in my case and in the story's may have just been too busy, or
misunderstanding, or overwhelmed--I dont know what the problem is, but the
outcomen is awful.

~~~
jpatokal
It's difficult to say this in a polite way, but I think you should get an
appointment at a psychiatrist and get assessed for schizophrenia. What you
describe, particularly the "blatant to surreal" bit, sounds _very_ much like
potential symptoms: I'm not saying you're making this up, but that there's a
very real possibility that your brain is connecting dots that it shouldn't be.

~~~
happynomad
Haha I wish I was just crazy. I agree that it sounds unlikely. I also
understand the temptation you express: to live in a world where the simplest
and most easy-to-live-with answer is the right one: Ian Murdock "just snapped
and went crazy." Snowden "just snapped and turned against his nation." "Poor
minorities resort to violence to solve problems, employed upper-middle class
don't ever engage that sort of thing." We don't like to live with
uncomfortable truths. Unfortunately for me, I never did anything of such
significance to humanity as those two--so reasonable and inquisitive minds
will be relatively unlikely to look at my situation in detail.

Anyways there's a lot more to the story. I had a pretty bad reputation due to
getting made a scapegoat for some things that werent my fault. I stood my
ground which blew up in my face as multiple higher-ups doubled down. So I quit
and their response was to close to doubled my salary, gave me a promotion, an
apology, and lots of nice perks like use of a company apartment, expenses
paid, etc, and asked I please just forget it ever happened. It's a long story
and I could have made my life a lot easier if I just kept my head low, blended
in and shut up.

~~~
billyjobob
Nevertheless, you should still see a shrink. If you don't like the stigma of
mental illness then see one who calls themselves a 'life coach' and say you're
going for advice on improving your life.

~~~
happynomad
Alright, well we have two possibilities here. In the case that you are wrong,
you condemn a victim to a slanderous label while enabling aggressors. In the
case that you are right, and given what limited information is available here,
it could appear a prescient response, but the other side of that is perhaps it
would be quick-to-judge at this point--which is coming across as off-putting.

Sometimes you may think you know the answer to what someone else is going
through, just by having a quick listen to what they have to say. What I would
say to that: It's better to be thankful you have never experienced something
like this.

That said, it isn't bad for me at the moment. If this had never happened I
would still be working with boring business logic software in a company run by
salesman, buying things I didnt need and wasting my 20s.

Anywaya, to be honest, it is alleviating to imagine this as all a psychotic
imagination. The moral and egotistical implications and questions for me, in
that case, feel much easier to answer. Not to mention--I don't have to worry
about a nasty person seeking a nasty deeds.

------
unityByFreedom
> The Orleans Parish DA's office was forced to apologise last week after it
> was found to have been issuing so-called "DA's subpoenas" \- a fake subpoena
> which warns witnesses that they could be fined or sent to jail for ignoring
> it, despite having no such authority. A spokesman for the DA said the office
> would immediately stop issuing the notices.

At what point can a DA be criminally charged? Does that ever happen? Who
oversees state's attorneys?

It seems clear in this case that the judge felt the DA misrepresented the
reasons for their warrant at best, and lied at worst. Sounds like it could be
criminal

~~~
zkms
IANAL but I know there's laws against impersonating a law-enforcement officer;
I would not be surprised if falsely asserting authority of law with fake court
orders / legal processes is similarly criminalised.

------
lb1lf
The most -ahem- interesting takeaway from this story IMHO is that Orleans
Parish DA Cannizzaro describes being jailed as a material witness as an
inconvenience.

If I were a local judge, I'd love the opportunity to lock him up for a few
weeks just to have that 'inconvenience' metered out on himself.

~~~
ilaksh
The FBI should investigate. The dealer probably bribed the DA to jail the
witness to intimidate him.

------
mnm1
Another reason to stay silent. Never talk to the police and they won't have a
reason, most of the time, to issue one of these warrants. And if they do,
still don't talk. Fuck a system that puts its victims in jail. This is not
justice. These prosecutors' jobs should _not_ be made easier. Justice would be
these prosecutors landing in gen pop. Yeah, it's dangerous.

~~~
averagewall
He was shot. Surely it's reasonable to go to the police looking for justice.
Are you suggesting letting gang members get away with crime?

~~~
mnm1
It's not reasonable for the police to come to me looking for a witness. That's
all I'm saying. If that leads to gang members getting away with crime, so be
it. Putting a material witness in jail is only more injustice. Somehow this is
justified in the eyes of the law, yet in the eyes of humanity, no US jail can
be justified. You can't make a right with two wrongs, but no one told the US
"justice" system. "Yeah, let's put those rape victims in jail for not
testifying. Fuck them. How dare they not testify?"

~~~
arjie
Dude. He's witnessing against the guy who tried to kill him. If the guy
doesn't go to jail he may finish the job. Fuck them means fucking himself.

~~~
smcl
I think he was going to co-operate anyway, but even if not I think that should
be up to the victim to decide to be honest.

------
sandworm101
Material witness warrants are why tourists should really think twice about the
US.

"if it is shown that it may become impracticable to secure the presence of the
person by subpoena, a judicial officer may order the arrest of the person"
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3144](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3144)

That means any witness who intends on leaving the jurisdiction anytime soon
may be arrested. And once arrested, bail is difficult given that you are being
held because you might flee. So any tourist who is victimized in the US, and
may therefore be wanted as a witness, should seriously consider revisiting
their travel plans.

~~~
bluejekyll
How do these laws differ in other countries? Don't many European countries
have similar provisions for guaranteeing access to witnesses?

~~~
panzer_wyrm
Not quite. You can generally leave but must returned when summoned. You may
have a interpol notice sent to your country if you refuse to come voluntarily.

~~~
sqldba
Who pays for it and organises the visas and your work and stuff?

~~~
panzer_wyrm
I guess you. Not the government.

------
kutkloon7
What worries me the most is the ease with which the DA lies to the judge. The
bus ticket was obviously made up, and besides: How would the DA know that
Mitchell had purchased a bus ticket?

The judge should have realized this. She either a) is incapable of doing her
job right, b) does not realize the impact and risks of locking someone up, or
c) just doesn't care

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tehlike
If there is a law that could be abused, no matter how good the intention of
the law is, law enforcement could abuse it.

This is why I totally believe in slippery slope argument when it comes to
laws. Privacy comes to mind, and I cheer EFF for standing up for us, the
people of the united states, even in contraversial cases where the suspect is
the actual criminal in a trial.

------
mirimir
OK, in my fantasy world, material witnesses are at most put in protective
custody, in a nice hotel or safe house. They're not arrested like criminals,
and thrown in jail.

So why don't they do that?

~~~
BeetleB
Someone I knew was held for a long period of time as a material witness.
Initially in a jail cell, but eventually released with restrictions to his
wife (restrictions involving travel outside of state, etc). Because of this,
he lost his job. Because of that, he lost his wife.

Their reasoning: He was a flight risk. But he wasn't. They had never
_attempted_ to contact him to ask him to testify. And he had cooperated with
them in the past. They just picked him up, and threw him in jail.

More than a year later, they had the trial. He was never called to the stand.

So all this pain because they wanted him to testify, and he was never called
to testify.

He sued. His case went to the Supreme Court eventually. Unfortunately, he lost
the case. But he did win some minor cases and got damages in the six figures.

Not enough in my opinion...

~~~
killedbydeath
I am amazed by the "lost his wife" part. What did she say in her wedding vows,
"I take you as a husband from this day forward and until our combined income
falls below 75% of the average income over the previous 3 years"?

~~~
woogiewonka
I'm sure it wasn't the direct result of job loss but the events that escalated
after the fact. Any married person knows the stress job loss has on a
relationship after extended periods of unemployment.

------
fencepost
I'd have no problem with material witness warrants and mailing as long as the
witness gets independent outside counsel paid for by the prosecutor's office.
They must not be used to drive up costs and workloads on the public defender
offices, particularly in Louisiana where they're so underfunded and overworked
already.

~~~
cperciva
I'd add another requirement: They should get the same "can't be fired for
missing work" rules as people summoned for jury duty. Whether you're a juror
or a witness, you're being required to perform a public service; there's no
justification for having different rules.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Nor should your family starve for not producing income from said job. Just as
important, you shouldn't lose your children - I'm guessing this happens if you
are a single parent.

------
pmoriarty
What is the objection against providing witnesses with at least the same legal
protections as defendants?

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easilyBored
I get the idea: you saw something and the state forces you to testify to what
you saw to solve the crime. It's a noble idea to punish the perpetrator and
make the country safer.

In reality, most of the time it's best not to see or hear anything.

------
Markoff
why am I not surprised i knew prior opening article it will be about US just
by reading title?

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sqldba
If you want someone to commit perjury out of spite then do this.

~~~
sillysaurus3
That would be a remarkably dumb thing to do. When the system is screwing you
over, rebelling is usually the worst decision.

~~~
throwaway2048
It seems the remarkably dumb thing to do is to come forth as a witness. A good
chance you get thrown in jail for it.

------
vfclists
What proportion of the people jailed under these laws are Black or Hispanic?

~~~
spodek
or male?

------
valuearb
Don't talk to the police. They aren't your friends.

------
colemickens
edit: I never should've opened my mouth, whenever will I learn...

~~~
Retra
Well, I don't know the answer one bit. But I suppose I can rest assured that
smugly complaining about down-votes while saying absolutely nothing in a
blatantly offensive way is a surefire way to turn one's own irreverence into a
self-fulfilling prophecy of victimhood.

