

Why Your Customers Don't Want to Talk to You - klous
http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2010/07/why_your_customers_dont_want_t.html

======
samdk
The hypothesis this article makes is that customers don't necessarily want a
relationship with companies. I think that that's an overly simplistic view of
the picture.

First, all of the examples given involve routine tasks large institutions. I
don't generally get good service from airlines and banks aren't great either.
I'd love to have an airline or a bank that treated me like a person (and I
think a lot of other people would too), but the fact is that most of them
really don't. Why would I want to talk to a low-level customer service rep
who's following a script and can't help me? That doesn't "build a
relationship". Most companies aren't interested in relationships, they're
interested in their bottom line. And usually, it's quite obvious.

You have to actually _try_ if you want to build relationships with your
customers.

Second, the reasons many people prefer self-service kiosks are not actually
all that mystical. Saving time is a huge one, but I think there's another
reason that's maybe just as important: _people do not like other people seeing
them make mistakes_. In any transaction, there are a lot of things that can go
wrong. When I'm at a bank I might fumble with my wallet, drop something,
forget to fill out exactly the right form in exactly the right way, forget to
sign the check I'm depositing, etc. People make small mistakes all of the time
and they don't like other people to know about them. If they're interacting
with a machine, they can hide those. If they don't know exactly what they're
doing, they can figure it out themself.

People like to look like they know what they're doing. When they don't, they
don't like people to see that.

In my experience, people really like good customer service and being treated
well. The thing is that you really can't half-ass it, and you shouldn't try to
_force_ people to interact with you when they have no reason to. It's
important to recognize that direct interaction often inconveniences people,
even if the reason for that inconvenience isn't completely obvious.

If you want to build relationships with your customers, remember why they're
there. They're not there to interact with you, they're there to get the
service or product you're selling them. If interacting with you isn't helping
them in some way, it doesn't matter how friendly you are: it's still a
negative experience. Building relationships has to be mostly a byproduct of
doing a good job, not the end goal in itself.

~~~
Silhouette
> Why would I want to talk to a low-level customer service rep who's following
> a script and can't help me? That doesn't "build a relationship".

Exactly. I think the underlying issue here isn't so much automated vs.
personal, it's just good service vs. bad service, or if you prefer, effective
vs. ineffective communication.

Telephone service is usually the worst: tedious automated menus, up-front
warnings about recording this and invalidating that if you so much as breathe
during the call, long (or worse, unknown) queuing times, and then you just get
to speak to someone who can't deviate from their script to help you, assuming
you can even understand what they say if they're based in some far-away call
centre where employment is cheap and accents are strong. Neither the automated
aspects nor the personal ones are much good here, though I've noticed a trend
in the past couple of years for some companies to make a marketing point that
they do have local call centres with real people answering the phone and very
short queuing times.

Personal favourite anecdote for poor telephone service: I once had to call a
credit card company to notify them that someone had been acting suspiciously
with my card in a restaurant in a foreign country and I thought they might be
trying to double-charge me. The card company left me on hold for so long --
calling from abroad on a mobile phone -- that my phone battery was starting to
die and I lost the call, though of course not the charge for it. Since they
clearly don't take security seriously, I now use a different credit card.

In contrast, automated on-line services often work fairly well these days: all
of the banks, investment firms, etc. I work with have decent web sites, they
basically work, they're reasonably easy to use, and they let me do what I want
to do quickly.

For some things, I would still rather use a real person, though. For example,
I am quite tall, so if I'm booking seats for any sort of show in a venue I
haven't been to before, I usually still prefer to call or visit the booking
office and ask them about which seats have enough leg room, even if the
company has an otherwise excellent web site for ticket reservations.

The most striking example of preferring personal service I know is that
several of the supermarkets in my area have recently installed self-service
checkouts, where you scan all your own items and pay at the end. Typically
there are just a couple of store staff supervising a whole set of these,
instead of one staffer per checkout aisle. However, unless you're just buying
one or two things, almost everyone seems to have these infernal machines and
will join a queue of half a dozen people for a staffed checkout in preference
to using an immediately-available automated system. They are just too hard to
use without the training that store staff get in all the little options and
details, and they are too unreliable, frequently shouting (incorrect) things
at you about putting unexpected items in the wrong places or not recognising
your card/voucher/whatever.

Amusing anecdote for this one: the other day I went into the store, and in the
time that one trained staffer got through six customers on a "basket only"
aisle, one customer with a single basket was still trying to get one of those
infernal machines to work properly, with three different store staff called
over to help by the time I left.

Most important of all, though, is if anything goes wrong. Then I want to speak
to a real person who is right in front of me, listening to what I say, and
able to do something about it. No automated system is ever going to replace
that, and I won't deal with companies that don't even try.

In short, if you want to build customer satisfaction, make the routine things
easy, automate where it works, but always provide good personal service as a
back-up.

~~~
GBKS
I've had quite the opposite experience with automated check-out. I prefer it
over a staffed check-out, but maybe the machines at the local store are simply
easier to use.

The reason why I like them is that I don't have a to deal with another
variable (staff). The process is automated, I have full control and can be out
faster. So for me, automating this process is a superior experience,
interacting with another person is unnecessary complexity.

~~~
starkfist
The issue I always run into with the self check out machines, is that they
frequently don't work right, so they require an attendant, anyway.

~~~
ams6110
The problem is with the scanning of the bar codes. I think that the checkout
clerks develop a technique for passing the items over the scanner quickly yet
in such a way that the barcode is read on the first pass. In the self-checkout
lane I often have to move the item back and forth, turn it a various angles,
before it finally scans. I'm about 10x slower than an experienced checkout
operator.

Then, if you're buying alcohol or anything in an aerosol can you have to have
your ID checked which is another slowdown. If I'm buying more than about 5
items I will get in the regular checkout or "express" line rather than self
services, even if there's no waiting.

~~~
Silhouette
It's not just the bar codes, though. The devices I'm talking about simply
don't work very well. They complain about unexpected items in the bagging area
because their weight checks aren't configured with sensible tolerances. (This
is so irritating that it is now routinely parodied on satirical TV and radio
shows.) They fail to scan credit/debit cards with annoying frequency. There is
little space, so if you've brought some decent bags to put your shopping in
but they've been buried at the bottom of your basket as you went around the
store, you have to try and unpack everything to reach them but have nowhere to
put it. None of these things is a problem on the staffed tills right next
door.

I went over to the shop this afternoon, and while I was there, no more than
three of the six self-service counters were in use at any given time, even
though there were something like half a dozen people queueing for the one
remaining manned basket-only aisle right next door, and despite the efforts of
a staff member whose only purpose seemed to be trying (and failing) to
convince people that the self-service counters really were worth the hassle.

------
Kliment
I know why I use self-service machines for purchasing tickets and checking in
at airports: repeatability and speed. I've memorized my interaction sequence
with the German rail ticket machines to the point where I can get a ticket in
25 seconds. No desk service is that fast. Also, I don't have to deal with
potential human unpredictability and communicating what I want. My interaction
with the machine is already in muscle memory, and I don't feel rude when
specifying things with extreme precision. Getting a specific seat on a plane
is a multi-step operation at a checkin counter. Some clerks ask you if you
want an aisle or window seat, but sometimes act offended when I ask for seat
3C. Some don't ask at all, and print out the boarding card before I can
complain (not that it's a big deal where I sit, but it's a factor). Poking the
3C box on the self-service machine allows me to disregard the mood the clerk
is in and get what I want. I feel more in control, and don't feel like I'm
being a difficult customer. When I first moved here, I had a major language
problem, so having machines with a language switch helped me a lot. But even
now that I speak the language fluently, I still prefer automated experiences.
The article has a point, there are a number of people in my life I care about,
but bank tellers and checkin clerks are not important to me. I'll be nice to
them when I encounter them, but I much prefer not having to interact with
them. After all, they are entering the same stuff into the machine as I would,
ideally.

~~~
dfranke
Related point: at the same time that the machine allows me to be more
efficient, and to be more precise without being rude, it also lets me be
_less_ efficient without being rude. An automated kiosk doesn't care how many
times I ask it the same question, and doesn't feel like I'm jerking it around
if I cancel out of buying a first class upgrade when I'm at the final
confirmation screen.

------
efsavage
I prefer to self-serve because most of the time the human interaction is
adding little value.

Go to Best Buy or the Apple Store and ask a basic question, you'll probably
get a stumped look or a wrong answer and a pathetic attempt to sell you a $99
HDMI cable or a $29 DVI adapter. Call your cable or internet company and ask
if you're on the right plan and you'll get excuses and transfers and have to
give them information that they already have, multiple times, and likely get
an unsatisfactory answer. These places treat customer service staff as low-
skill/low-pay commodity positions, and the results are predictable. Therefore,
I want these fruitless interactions minimized, so self-serve it is.

My realtor, on the other hand, answers every question I ask. Maybe not
immediately, but he will definitely find the answer and will definitely call
me back. He even offers proactive information and next steps. I don't want to
replace him with a website. And as a bonus, because he's pleasant AND
knowledgeable, I actually want to talk to him on the phone, not even by email.

Summary: If you want "relationships" with your customers, focus on how capable
the people they're talking to are, or replace them with a website.

~~~
ams6110
This is really the point I think: companies need to give front-line customer
service reps more authority to resolve problems, deviate from scripts, etc. Of
course this requires hiring people who are creative and can think on their
feet, and probably paying them enough so they are motivated to be helpful.
Which is why most customer service is staffed by low-paid scripted drones.

------
nhebb
I use ATM's instead of walking inside because it's typically faster. I search
websites for info before contacting because:

(a) I will usually get more information in a shorter amount of time.

(b) I don't have to navigate a phone menu system.

(c) I won't have to wait forever on the phone while listening to bad music.

(d) I don't like sales pitches and pressure tactics that often accompany
simple price inquiries.

One idea for wannabe entrepreneurs - look for sectors where the existing
competition doesn't list price on their sites. You could probably garner a
good deal of business from those who hate the contact.

p.s., How do I do formatted lists on HN?

~~~
smokinn
You could use the code-formatting feature to write a list that would be
reproduced verbatim:

 _Text after a blank line that is indented by two or more spaces is reproduced
verbatim. (This is intended for code.)_

~~~
yason
IMHO, typing "^- " or "^\\* " (regexp) should really translate into a <LI>,
inside an <UL>. The formatting system of HN is minimal which works well but
lists are something so basic it's difficult to live without.

------
jakevoytko
I avoid talking to people because most businesses don't have my priorities. I
want to buy something because I need it, and they want to convince me that I
want product features I won't use or to spend more money than I thought I did.
Everyone says they want to "make the customer happy," but it seems like the
only companies that actually make me happy are in the tech industry and the
restaurant industry. Everyone else just spends their time bugging me.

When I was younger, I was influenced by salesmen saying, "Oh, look how awesome
the frobulator is!" So I'd be excited about the frobulator, and then I'd get
home and realize that I don't actually need one. Or I might also be too
engaged in conversation to investigate problems in the product like I should
have. But too late, I already bought it. I find this happens less as I age,
but the instances are more subtle and more money is at stake

------
neutronicus
Maybe the author is right for routine tasks, but there are times (usually when
I have some issue I need resolved) when I _really_ want to talk to a human
being, and I will get _really_ angry if I can't.

~~~
Kliment
I've had that experience too, and the end result is that I only talk to
companies on the phone when there is an issue I cannot resolve myself. Usually
this is a problem I want solved, or an error they made. I guess I'm now
somewhat conditioned to expect a negative experience (since I'm usually
unhappy about something when I call). Customer service at pretty much every
institution I've had to call to resolve an issue has been a pain, further
reinforcing the notion that if I have to talk to a corporate human, I'm going
to be unhappy as a result.

~~~
pmjordan
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Obviously no website UI
can ever cover absolutely all cases and some queries will need to reach a
human, but most companies don't even seem to try. Even if there's a form for
other queries it's usually one big text box rather than the more specific
questions staff would ask you on the phone. The worst part are the responses
combined from canned text blocks, which tend to make no sense at all and don't
solve any problems. Or even better, online queries being ignored altogether,
or receiving an automated "please call" reply.

One exception to this (in my experience) is amazon. Their help section is
pretty comprehensive, each shipment has associated actions you can take which
are context (status) dependent and if you do have a specific request it's
ridiculously impersonal but very efficient.

~~~
frossie
* Obviously no website UI can ever cover absolutely all cases and some queries will need to reach a human, but most companies don't even seem to try*

I completely boggled the other day at encountering a "Contact Us" web UI that
had no "Other" option in their drop down menu. As my purpose for attempting to
contact them was not remotely related to what the listed options covered, I
just gave up.

All I wanted to do was suggest to them a totally minor change that would have
opened up a whole new market for them. _shrug_ Oh well.

------
cwp
Here's an anecdote that might shed light on this from a different angle.

I used to work with some people who really enjoy coffee. We'd take coordinated
coffee breaks and trek a couple of blocks to the local coffee shop. After
going there a couple of times a day for a few weeks I started to have
"relationship" with the staff. That was pleasant for a while - they knew my
name and drink and I knew their names. But after a while the "relationship"
hit a wall. We had exhausted the possibilities for superficial chit-chat, and
had to either advance to actual friendship or acknowledge that we weren't
going to.

But the coffee shop staff wouldn't do either of those things. They can't
become after-work friends with _all_ their regular customers - nobody has time
for that - and in many cases it could be construed as rude or unprofessional.
On the other hand, they couldn't really abandon the "relationship" that they'd
work so hard to build in the first place. It became obvious that this wasn't a
real relationship, but a deliberate sales strategy. It would have been fine if
they had settled for, "Hi Colin, the usual?" and left it at that, but they
insisted on asking about my weekend, wishing me a good afternoon etc. That
became annoying and I started avoiding the place.

The article deals with attempts by large corporations to build customer
relationships, but I think the notion that customers don't _want_
relationships applies even at a small scale. Real interpersonal relationships
take a bit of work to maintain, and I think customers will avoid that if the
relationship provides no value to them.

~~~
epochwolf
> It would have been fine if they had settled for, "Hi Colin, the usual?" and
> left it at that, but they insisted on asking about my weekend, wishing me a
> good afternoon etc. That became annoying and I started avoiding the place.

This is why I keep going to a local coffee shop. It would be: "The usual?",
except that I usually haven't decided on a drink and take 5 minutes. I've
chatted with the owner and the different staff but there is no obligation to
chat every time I go. If I need to get work done, I'm left alone without
having to ask. :) (Now if only there was places open after 10pm!)

------
smokinn
This article didn't even touch on the most obvious reasons people prefer the
self-serve.

First, the ATM example. If banks in the US are anything like the banks in
Canada you can use the ATM for free but pay substantial service fees if you go
to the teller. So of course people wait in line at the ATM instead.

For the others dealing with a human, because of past abuse by companies, is
typically viewed as having a lot of potential friction. The humans are trained
to try and upsell you at every turn (would like like this as well? it's only
an extra this amount) and the humans are much better at upselling than the
machines so it's no wonder we go for the machines. It's much easier to ignore
the upsells and just go with your regular routine.

For me, dealing with a human at a company is nearly always slow and
aggravating with them going off on tangents I don't want them bringing me in.
The best way of keeping them on track is to be rude which I don't like to do
to humans but have no problem with when I'm dealing with a machine.

~~~
knarf_navillus
I was subjected to three different upsells during one visit to Little Caesar's
yesterday.

"Would you like to try our ham and pineapple pizza?"

"No, just cheese, thank you."

"Can I interest you in some crazy bread or italian cheese bread?"

"Yes, I'd like some cheese bread, please" (was going to order it anyway)

"Would you like to add an order of crazy bread as well for just $1?"

"No."

~~~
nhebb
This is why I don't go to Dick's sporting goods anymore.

------
notahacker
One of the main reasons they don't want a relationship with you is because
they're generally less likely to be persuaded they need to pay more for the
improved version of the service, or dissuaded from downgrading/cancelling

Conversely those people that enjoy building a relationship with companies are
often those looking to negotiate a discount.

~~~
ams6110
You mention downgrading/canceling... this is the ONE thing you cannot do on
any customer service site I've been too. Verizon .. ATT .. Comcast... try to
find a "cancel my service" button. You can order new services all day long,
but to cancel you've got to call the customer service phone number.

------
SkyMarshal
_maybe customers are shifting toward self service because they don't want a
relationship with companies_

Ding ding ding. Especially when said relationship is just a thinly veiled
excuse to upsell us, sidesell us, and/or nickel and dime us. Call it squeeze-
fatigue.

Further, no one has a 'relationship' with a company anyway, that's just
marketing speak. It's business, not personal, and companies won't hesitate to
do what's in their best interests at the expense of customers (or employees),
unlike a real friend or family member that you have a _real_ relationship
with. Businesses don't make sacrifices for their customers the way real
friends do sometimes.

Just because businesses won corporate personhood way back when doesn't
actually make them people you can have an honest, agenda-free relationship
with.

Using relationship in this context is just marketing koolaid.

------
VengefulCynic
The worst case is when the company is trying to push a relationship on you
that you don't want. There are certain types of stores where the salespeople
are commission driven (in the US, at least) and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get the
salesperson to go away in many of the places that these things are sold.

My personal least favorite is furniture shopping. Furniture (for me) is a very
personal decision on artistic merit that is best done in quiet solitude. I
want to touch, smell, examine, and test the furniture and I want to do it at
my own pace and without a shadow who won't stop yammering in my ear. Look, I
understand that this is a pressure sales job. I understand that you don't want
your co-workers to steal your sale. Give me your card, I'll do my shopping,
I'll find you if I have questions and when I want to buy something, I'll let
you know.

------
makeramen
How about the concept of control? I would hypothesize that people prefer self-
serve at banks, gas stations, and checkouts because they are in full control
of the situation.

If they've been there multiple times before, they're familiar enough with the
system that they can navigate it quicker than having someone else do it for
them, and any inefficiencies they can only blame themselves.

Also, there is a certain effort that goes into human interaction, the smiling,
greeting, small-talking, and being polite so you can (hopefully) get them to
treat you better and do a better and faster job on your requests. Or you can
just do it all yourself and save the trouble.

------
Goladus
It's true. I don't want a relationship with any companies. So long as their
service works flawlessly as advertised, that is.

And if "self-service" involves a finicky IVR that is pretending to be a person
and pretending to 'listen' to me by voice pattern-recognition, then I'd rather
speak to a person, even if it's one person in a call center of 1,000 who deals
with hundreds of customers every day and doesn't really care about
establishing a relationship with any individual one. I'm a problem they have
to solve, even the really friendly ones see me that way. Although I'd rather
have had an internet service work properly the first time so that I didn't
have to deal with any of that crap. Would I enjoy a real relationship with
someone at the company? I don't know. No big company's "customer service" has
ever achieved this, so I have nothing to compare.

Restaurants might be interesting to look at, though. Although my tastes are
fickle: at 5:00 I might like the idea of a long, relaxing dinner where I
interact with a cute and cheerful waitress after being seated by a friendly
and professional maitre'd. 6:00 might roll around and I might have changed my
mind, now I want to walk into a fast food restaurant and pay up front to have
a bag of grub left on the counter for me to inhale as quickly as possible on
my way somewhere else. And in the latter case, if I could just send a text of
my order in advance and it would be waiting for me-- even better.

------
sstrudeau
This may be one component of the success of Google advertising platform versus
other online advertising options. If you want to make a significant spend on
advertising with a large publisher (or set of publishers) you pretty much
_have_ to pick up the phone.

I know when I'm evaluating a service or software package, I'm much more
inclined to go w/ an option that publishes pricing up front and allows me to
"self-serve" my purchase, versus emailing or calling a sales-person to
essentially negotiate the price.

------
aristidb
When trying to do routine tasks, many of us don't necessarily want to get into
a social situation. We don't want to think about how to phrase our questions,
or what impression we make on the other person. A machine does not care about
that.

On the other hand, when it's not sure what can or should be done, a live chat
or another "low overhead" communication line with a real human who can
actually understand us is a blessing.

~~~
knarf_navillus
I don't mind getting in a social situation per se, as long as it's
appropriate. I know this sounds terrible, but when I'm ordering something from
a menu, or checking something out at the cashier, chances are I don't know the
employee that I'm speaking to, and I'm certainly not their BFF. While I try to
be as polite as possible, and appreciate some basic politeness in return, I
find that sometimes the lengths that these employees are expected to go in
order to act like my friend are awkward and inappropriate.

What's worse is, the employees know it. They don't _want_ to sing when I leave
them a tip, or ask me if I have plans this weekend. They're required to, by
their managers, who think that the general public gets off on employees who
are subservient.

------
j5eb6ach
Grocery stores figured this out years ago with self-checkout. Scanning each
item can be tedious (looking up produce codes, etc.), and yet many customers
prefer to scan their own items.

I do not mind at self-checkout when an employee helps to put everything into
bags, though.

~~~
lsc
really? it's funny, I'm mildly human-avoidant, and I generally avoid the self-
checkout unless the lines are significantly shorter because it takes me quite
a bit longer to check myself out. First, I've gotta scan everything, and not
being a professional, i'm slower than the checkout guy is. Next, the machenes
just plain suck. "Unexpected item in bagging area" etc... it takes twice as
long, at least, to get through the self checkout than to get the human.

Really, I think 70% of the problem is that the machines, as currently
implemented, suck. The other 30% is that scanning barcodes quickly is
something of a skill.

~~~
schwap
I find I tend to use the self-checkout only as a replacement for the express
checkout, i.e. I only have a small number of items, that will probably fit in
one bag, and that won't require keying in a bunch of product codes. I find in
this situation self-checkout is the same or faster than regular. For large
numbers of items, however, regular checkout is much better.

------
zwieback
I prefer machines whenever there's no value-add of the human interaction (e.g.
anything to do with booking, reservation, ATM, etc.)

Counter-example is health care (USA). Whenever I try to resolve a question
about my insurance I try to get to an operator on the phone asap.

------
afhof
I'm going to go out on a limb and say I like having a person on the other end.
Questions are (for me) more quickly answered by a person. I also think the way
the employees treat you is a good indication of the quality of the business.

~~~
dagw
I think a good balance is necessary. That is, for example, what I really like
about my bank. Each time I have a problem that cannot be solved via their web
page, the person answering my call is competent, professional and quickly
solves my problem. Even if I only have to call 2 or 3 times a year, the fact
that I get great service those times is enough for me to not change banks.

------
edw519
This article and its misleading title is a typical demonstration that the
chasm between academia and the real world isn't getting any smaller any time
soon. Who are you going to listen to, people who spent their lives building
businesses around the premise of servicing their customers or people who want
to tell you how to do that which they haven't?

OP makes the classic blunder of confusing misguided tactics (poor
implementations of self-service) with wrong strategy (excellent customer
relationships). And then comes to an absurd conclusion with its sensational
title.

I'd prefer to stick with a simple adage I've heard so many times from
successful business people:

"All things being equal, people would rather buy from a friend. All things
being unequal, people would still rather buy from a friend."

~~~
jodrellblank
I've spent the past twenty years with more computer interaction than human;
the self service till _is_ a friend.

I'm suspicious of the other commenters who say the self service checkout is
faster, but what it really does is follow the UI principle "don't make me
think". I can go to, through, and out of, a self service checkout in the same
mood and mode I went through the shop in. No switching to higher effort
'people' mode.

------
chhotu23
How to hack mobile with massage

