
F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal - chenster
http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/business/volkswagen-diesel-emissions-investigation-settlement.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur
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JohnGB
I wonder if the same would have happened to an American company in the USA. If
so, what's the deal with the bankers that did orders of magnitude more damage?

~~~
eumoria
Harley Davidson was caught doing the same emissions scam and no one seems to
care. Granted there's less vehicles from them compared to the 11 million Volks
but still.

~~~
mcguire
???

Somebody created emission requirements for motorcycles?

~~~
HNaTTY
Oh yes, and nobody cared about the performance aftermarket (basically anything
you do is going to violate emissions standards) until Harley started selling
bikes already modified for "racing".

I dropped 20 lbs off a 330lb bike (and added about 5hp) by replacing the heavy
dual exhaust with a single Ti/carbon pipe, and reprogramming the ECU. I'm sure
the manufacturer would have loved to give me a 310lb bike that made more power
if they could. (and before you ask, no it's not loud, I hate loud pipes)

Incidentally, the exhaust/ECU upgrade was done by the local shop when the bike
was purchased new. Basically the same as what H-D was doing.

Anyway, what H-D got popped for is arguably less egregious than what VW was
doing. They admit that the modified bikes bypass emissions requirements,
whereas the unmodified VWs didn't meet the requirements and had to cheat to
pass inspection.

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freddealmeida
Don't get me wrong. I find it interesting that the FBI will arrest anyone for
conspiracy when they so clearly ignore it in numerous other cases (such as in
banking, real estate). I doubt though that this will be an emerging pattern
for the FBI. I'm sure many more horrible conspiracies against the American
people will be ignored efficiently.

~~~
mox1
Just so everyone else understands how our justice system works (at the Federal
level anyway). The FBI does not just "decide" to arrest someone. An agent can
start an investigation and want to arrest someone. But if a federal district
attorney is not on board, usually no arrest will happen.

99 times out of 100, a Federal District Attorney (usually in the region where
the company / person is headquartered) makes this decision and then the FBI
(or other federal agency) acts, especially in major cases like this.

Many times there is a working relationship. An FBI agent might call a district
attorney and "shop" his case: "Hey Jim, it's agent Bob, I have a slam dunk
case for you here, call me." Other times the crime is serious enough its
totally obvious that everyone is going to peruse it (murder, child
exploitation, major drug stuff, etc.) And other times, the District Attorney
calls the agent and says "Bob, these Volkswagen people need to pay for what
they have done, lets throw the book at them, start investigating."

We will probably never know what happened in this Volkswagen case, but make no
mistake that people inside the White House, FBI headquarters and Loretta
Lynch's office all had to "thumbs up" a persecution on this level. One lowly
agent doesn't make these decisions.

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pvlima
Most amazing is that in Europe VW does not have to pay anything. And car
owners are forced to do a software update that reduces engine power and
increases risk of malfunction. VW never again.

~~~
dovdovdov
If this blows up it's over for most german car manufacturers.

They sold a lot of diesel cars, and most of them probably have some hacks to
meet Euro standards.

They should be forced to fix all cars, reimburse buyers for any losses, and be
forced(!) to go green asap (which probably means at least 10 years, so yeah
there should be some force)!

~~~
_nedR
It seems to be game over for diesel cars in general, even if you ignore their
eventual replacement with electric cars. They have been getting a lot of bad
press lately. Their popularity was due to their higher fuel efficiency; But
for diesels, it seems that there is trade-off between fuel efficiency and NOx
emissions ([http://www.livescience.com/52284-volkswagen-scandal-clean-
di...](http://www.livescience.com/52284-volkswagen-scandal-clean-diesel-
challenges.html)). With many cities and countries trying to curb smog and air
pollution, diesels are on the top of the hitlist.

edit: reworded, and changed link

~~~
disiplus
diesels are popular in europe for one reason that probably somebody from us
will not understand. the price of fuel. because the price of fuel is so much
bigger fuel efficiency is the biggest concern

~~~
usrusr
In Germany it is not just about the efficiency: diesel fuel is taxed lower per
liter than gasoline, for exactly the same stupid reasons personal cars are
(were?) often cheaper to register in the USA if you find an excuse to call it
a truck.

~~~
Kankuro
About the same in France: heating oil was traditionally used to heat houses,
but with the development of nuclear electricity it consumption dropped. French
government back then helped the refineries by lowering the taxes and pushed
the car industry to develop diesel cars. And we have been stuck with these
diesel cars since this era.

It's a vicious circle because owner of diesel cars may think twice before
voting if a candidate proposes to raise the taxes on diesel, even if year
after year we get reports about the number of early deaths because of fine
particles…

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dubyah
South Korea sentenced a Volkswagen executive to 18 months in prison on Friday.

[http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-southkorea-
idUS...](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-southkorea-
idUSKBN14Q0VR)

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bflesch
This is way overdue. Unfortunately in Germany they don't touch VW executives
at all. You could build the same cases here, but there is no political will.

Our corrupt ministry of transportation even sends out their reports on the VW
fraud scandal over to Volkswagen and lets them review/amend/retract passages
of their report.

You can't make that shit up. It's a disgrace to Germany and the EU that this
company has so much leverage.

~~~
athenot
It's called the _Home Advantage_. Ford/GM enjoy that in the US so if this
scandal were to take place at those companies, you'd see harsher action in
Europe than in the US.

~~~
bflesch
It's called corruption and cover-up of criminal activities, and should be
prosecuted that way.

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vostok
As someone who works in finance, I'm shocked at the level of fraud and
corruption that is tolerated in other industries. I'm glad to see that at
least some action is being taken.

~~~
chopin
You forgot the /sarcasm tag...

~~~
Jgrubb
I took that to mean that OP is shocked that the level of fraud and corruption
tolerated in other industries is so much lower than in finance.

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alexandercrohde
Good. I'm tired of high-ranking high-status members of society dodging
consequences of multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest
classes get life sentences for ruining a single life.

I think the only way to stop the white-collar crime problem (which I think is
a bigger problem than the physical crime problem) is by holding people
accountable.

~~~
hueving
>multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life
sentences for ruining a single life.

Is the implication here that causing economic harm is the same as murder?

~~~
jamessb
Emissions from Volkswagen cats above those permitted by the Clean Air Act
(enabled by cheating on emissions tests) are estimated to have caused a
significant number of premature deaths in the US:

> According to the study, conducted by researchers at MIT and Harvard
> University and published in the journal Environmental Research Letters,
> excess emissions from Volkswagen’s defeat devices will cause around 60
> people in the U.S. to die 10 to 20 years prematurely. If the automaker
> recalls every affected vehicle by the end of 2016, more than 130 additional
> early deaths may be avoided. If, however, Volkswagen does not order a recall
> in the U.S., the excess emissions, compounding in the future, will cause 140
> people to die early.

[https://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-
cause-6...](https://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-
cause-60-premature-deaths-1029)

~~~
throwaway30911
In that case it would make more sense to forbid cars entirely except for
utility vehicles or electric cars.

Which the government hasn't done for decades, so it is a little hypocritical
to make a big thing of the VW scandal.

~~~
csydas
I think this somewhat misses the forest for the trees - the case against VW
and the punishment isn't over hypothetical deaths, it's about cheating the
emissions tests and not complying with regulatory standards. In a tangential
way yes, the goal is to increase quality of life, but that's not really the
point of the case/arrests, nor is it realyl the focal point of the research
done, which was more a study on just how much excess pollution was produced as
a result of the scandal.

The FBI's actions have nothing to do with the MIT link.

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gst
I'm surprised that he decided to stay in the United States. Germany doesn't
extradite its own citizens to countries outside the EU (except in very limited
cases such as war criminals), so he would have been perfectly safe if he'd
moved back to Germany.

And even if he would have been sentenced in Germany the sentences handed out
in such cases are _much_ more relaxed than the potential sentence he's facing
in the United States.

~~~
bluGill
Germany will extradite in most cases. Here is the treaty if you want to read
the fine print
[http://www.mcnabbassociates.com/Germany%20International%20Ex...](http://www.mcnabbassociates.com/Germany%20International%20Extradition%20Treaty%20with%20the%20United%20States.pdf)

~~~
germanier
Article 7 clearly states that they are not required to extradite their own
citizens and the German constitution actually prohibits extraditing German
citizens to outside the EU (Art. 16. Abs. 2).

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robhu
Have the FBI taken similar action against American car manufacturers, or only
European ones?

~~~
tantalor
Did you read the article? The arrest is for lying to the feds, not the
emissions issue.

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swiley
A lot of compliance tests are like this. Most companies run different software
during tests than they would in the field and are just expected to have the
product behave similarly in good faith.

It's one of the best arguments for open source firmware IMO.

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devoply
Must not have invested money in lobbying DC. VW needs to spend a few million
on lobbyists.

~~~
troisx
Exactly. Ships cause enormous amounts of pollution but are practically
unregulated thanks to the lobbying influence of companies that import and
export.

~~~
cardiffspaceman
Maybe.

It was trivial to find this. [http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-
content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3...](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-
content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3Al24123)

In addition to that, the EU marine shipping system seems to be in some turmoil
over some required major capital expenditures due to a double-hull regulation,
which I also wanted to mention, but I can't quite find it.

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madihaawan
Nowadays, I am seeing many cases of cyber bullying, FBI attacks etc. It means
that we are not saved,

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tn13
Are we supposed to say well done Sherlock?

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zde
I don't get this. VW (and other car manufacturers) did NOT cheat. Their cars
have (AFAIK) passed all the emission tests required. Do they produce more
emissions outside the test envelope? You cry on wrong grave then...

~~~
ddeck
Cars aren't only required to pass emissions tests, they're required to have
their emissions within the specified limits at all times. The purpose of the
tests is to ensure compliance.

~~~
londons_explore
This is not the case.

If it were the case, the regulations would say "No more than X NOX emitted per
mile, even when climbing Mount Everest, even when 5 years old, even when
poorly maintained, and even when used with low quality fuel, and in all other
conditions anyone might put them in."

That clearly isn't reasonable, so instead the rules are written to say "They
must pass XYZ tests". As long as those tests are passed, they meet the
standard.

IMO, the main culprit here is the lawmakers for not correctly designing the
rules and test procedures to be sufficiently realistic. Specifically, they
shouldn't allow the CO2 test and NOX tests to be done in different conditions.

They should instead say "your car will be assigned to one member of EPA staff
every day for a month. They will drive their regular daily journeys with it,
and all emissions recorded. If you aren't happy with the test results (for
example due to a cold week), you may ask for a retest.".

~~~
freehunter
The problem with your reasoning is that these cars were designed to not meet
the emissions requirements _from the factory_. From day one, they were only
designed to meet the emissions standards during the testing, not on the road.
They were purposefully designed to cheat on the test.

Your statement would be true if test performance varied from real-world
performance due to environmental factors, but that's not the case. Test
performance varies from real-world performance _by design_. And then they lied
about it. _That 's_ why they're being punished.

I do agree that the test should be changed to take that inevitability out of
the equation, but for this situation the reason they're being punished is
because they designed their cars specifically to cheat on the existing test.

~~~
zde
> Your statement would be true if test performance varied from real-world
> performance due to environmental factors, but that's not the case.

..or due to engine temperature, speed, gear, gas pedal position and tons of
other variables WHICH IS the case. That's why emission requirements are (and
must be) test-specific.

~~~
freehunter
I'm sorry but you're wrong, and since I know you read my comment (you quoted
it) it almost seems like you're deliberately wrong.

Yes, testing varies from the real world based on a number of factors.
Environmental, driving style, etc. And the current tests don't care about
that, which is a _completely separate problem_. The problem that VW got in
trouble for is _specifically designing their cars to cheat on the existing
test_.

Yes, cars behave differently if they're driven uphill vs downhill, if they're
driven in the rain vs in the snow, if they're driven in the mountains or at
sea level, but that doesn't matter at all. The test doesn't care, the law
doesn't care. They're willing to accept that difference, as long as the car
doesn't actively circumvent the purpose of the test. Which VW did.

You can argue that the test is invalid, and I agree. But that doesn't matter.
The test is the test and VW cheated it. They built their cars specifically to
have a completely different performance in the test vs in the real world with
the specific intent to cheat the test.

~~~
zde
> separate problem

Nope. When doing business, the only thing that counts is formal, verifiable
spec. Crying "You have cheated since I wanted somehing else" should be
irrelevant in any country that honors rule of law.

> specifically designing their cars to cheat on the existing test.

Test is a predicate. It can pass or fail, but you can't cheat it.

> actively circumvent the purpose of the test

Hmm, that's probably closest to something I can accept as an argument. Nice.
But to circumvent the purpose requires an actual purpose. If the purpose is
formal, it's the test itself. And if it's not formal, then it's IMO impossible
or very hard to prove that it has been circumvented.

