

I've Decided To Give Orson Scott Card The Benefit of the Doubt - Rickasaurus
http://www.popehat.com/2013/07/09/ive-decided-to-give-orson-scott-card-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/

======
swamp40
Mr. Card holds _conservative_ personal beliefs, and has been vocal about them
- especially after Sept. 11, 2001.

His books are moving, profound and _A_ political.

If you avoid his books just because you don't like conservatives (and think
they are all terrible people and Asshats), it is your loss.

I will say one thing about this "latest" scandal (his writings supporting
traditional marriage from back in 2008).

Although today it is a fait accompli, back in 2008 it was a hotly debated
topic. Conservatives lost and the country moved on.

Throwing out 2008 arguments into a 2013 world can make ANYONE look bad.

Here's what Mr. Card has to say today:

 _With the recent Supreme Court ruling, the gay marriage issue becomes moot.
The Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution will, sooner or later,
give legal force in every state to any marriage contract recognized by any
other state.

Now it will be interesting to see whether the victorious proponents of gay
marriage will show tolerance toward those who disagreed with them when the
issue was still in dispute._

~~~
Artistry121
I don't see hatred for him being a conservative - I see a dislike for him
spending lots of money to keep a minority from having rights.

His version of intolerance towards homosexuals was spending money to prevent
them from having rights.

Their version of intolerance is to attempt to convince people not to see his
movie or buy his book.

I don't think the second qualifies as intolerance. I also think it is
completely within someones interest to speak out against supporting those who
oppress them. There are plenty of interesting and great science fiction books
or movies written by decent, reasonable people that could be supported
instead.

Also I the links in this thread show a side of the books that is far from
"apolitical", although they were moving and profound for me.

~~~
swamp40
> Also I the links in this thread show a side of the books that is far from
> "apolitical", although they were moving and profound for me.

Ender's Game STILL sells 100K-200K copies per year.

It is HUGELY popular, so of course _some_ people on the internet are going to
ride the publicity coat-tails by smashing it.

Just because _two_ academics find a way to compare the plot to the life of
HITLER does NOT mean that Mr. Card had that in mind AT ALL.

~~~
minikites
From the Kuro5hin article:

> On the phone and in his incoherent published reply, Card repeatedly shows
> ignorance of what he himself purportedly wrote. I simply cannot imagine how
> you could write such a stunningly well crafted piece of work (inasmuch as it
> is wildly popular and deeply affects people) without being aware of every
> fibre and splinter of its composition. About the third or fourth time I
> heard Card say something wasn't in his book that I knew was, I began to
> suspect that it was more of a committee effort.

> Notice that even John Kessel distances himself from the Hitler Hypothesis
> even though he draws many of the same conclusions Elaine does. Card manages
> to sound very convincing when he says Hitler was never on his mind and that
> it's Elaine who has the Hitler obsession; I think he's so convincing because
> he wasn't in on the joke himself. Elaine's essay may have been as much a
> revelation to him as it was to anyone else.

> I've seen Elaine's notes and heard Card on the phone, and there is no doubt
> in my mind that the Hitler Hypothesis is correct; it is simply impossible
> that Ender's Game and Speaker were written by someone who did not have a
> very detailed knowledge of Adolph Hitler's life. There are very exact
> parallels in there that you wouldn't even notice unless you read the
> footnotes to the most detailed Hitler biographies. I also tend to believe
> that Card does not have that level of knowledge about Hitler. Ergo, it is
> very hard for me to believe that he wrote the books. The assumption that he
> did not explains a great many otherwise mysterious things.

------
minikites
I'm not sure how people are just now realizing that Orson Scott Card is a
terrible person.

Orson Scott Card Has Always Been an Asshat (2005):
[http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034](http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034)

ender and hitler: sympathy for the superman (20 years later) (2007):
[http://peachfront.diaryland.com/enderhitlte.html](http://peachfront.diaryland.com/enderhitlte.html)

Creating the Innocent Killer: Ender's Game, Intention, and Morality (2004):
[http://www4.ncsu.edu/~tenshi/Killer_000.htm](http://www4.ncsu.edu/~tenshi/Killer_000.htm)

~~~
Artistry121
Thank you. This was my favorite book up to this hour. It's painful to realize
the messages I aligned with, subconciously, when I would never align with them
if I had seen them presented in a different way.

Sometimes its nice to be wrong and have the chance to reconsider. Thank you.

------
mindslight
It's a telling indicator of just how far the modern thought process has been
pwned by belief in government-uber-alles that the oppression of a group
finally stopping implies a manifest right to have the government promote this
group, and that those who disagree are bad people. If we actually had control
over the complexity of this beast, we would have simply had the government
stop this business of marriage-sanctioning altogether - removing the injustice
against the polygamists, singles, etc along with the gays. But don't worry
about their plight for long - I'm sure some will be the subject of another
feel-good political distraction in two decade's time.

~~~
minikites
Are you implying gay people no longer face discrimination?

~~~
mindslight
No.

------
xauronx
I like his books quite a lot, his characters always show a huge amount of
acceptance and compassion. Pretty much just the inverse amount that he appears
to show in reality.

I've never been a fanatic about any author/artist, I separate the creation
from the creator and that's how I intend to continue living. Just as I
wouldn't lose my shit if I saw Card, or Morgan Freeman, or Britney Spears in a
coffee shop. I'd give a polite nod and move along.

~~~
Artistry121
I'm stealing this from minikites comment above. His characters and the book's
message might send the wrong message about acceptance - acceptance of his
behavior, not that of "inherently evil" people.

Orson Scott Card Has Always Been an Asshat (2005):
[http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034](http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034)

ender and hitler: sympathy for the superman (20 years later) (2007):
[http://peachfront.diaryland.com/enderhitlte.html](http://peachfront.diaryland.com/enderhitlte.html)

Creating the Innocent Killer: Ender's Game, Intention, and Morality (2004):
[http://www4.ncsu.edu/~tenshi/Killer_000.htm](http://www4.ncsu.edu/~tenshi/Killer_000.htm)

~~~
xauronx
In Ender's game, it's all about accepting the differences between humans and
the buggers. They think and behave in completely different ways, and you must
love them and understand them. Later with the Piggies, there are those who
wanted to quarantine and destroy the planet, but the "heroes" risked life and
limb to save them.

Even in the Homecoming Saga, which was a very biblical work from the start,
there's quite a bit of effort to soothe the differences between the bats/rats
and get them to live in peace with their differences.

Honestly, I've read a ton of his works and time after time his characters are
great people and their goals are often agreeable and reasonable.

~~~
Artistry121
I did believe that and had read the book 6 times believing that. The point of
fact is that Ender _was not_ a great person - or even a good person. While I
enjoyed the aspects of interconnectedness between the two groups - and the
"redemption" of Ender by connecting with his enemy (the Queen) after reading
these articles I am convinced my original love of the book was unwarranted.

It's the story of an abused kid, and his adult mentors, who grows up to accept
abuse and cover up that abuse behind the cover of "good intentions" or
"neccessity". Look at Ender's treatment of Bean - becoming the enemy he hated
because he feels its neccessary.

The book was radically good at convincing me Ender was reasonable and moral -
but that doesn't mean he was. If you haven't read those essays minikite linked
too I suggest you do. Particularly Ender's simple dismissal of the student's
disgust at Ender's murder of the Formic is telling. "You should see it from
Ender's perspective, not the perspective of the destroyed race," is silly
victim-blaming. It's odd how I missed it up until today.

~~~
xauronx
Ender hated that side of himself, the destructive side. No one ever said that
the "adults" aka the military in that book were good people. It's not directly
stated, but to me it had an implied tone of wrongness, that they thought they
were acting as they must to strike first. In later books the Hive Queen
confirms that they were never going to come back and that makes an obvious
statement that the xenocide was unnecessary.

As for Ender's treatment of Bean, I think that's pretty much identical to how
coaches and military leaders behave. Ender even privately scolds himself for
the way he mirrored Graffs treatment of him in Bean's treatment. After that I
believe he makes an effort to treat his subordinates as friends, but it's too
late (because they still act coldly toward him).

I think Ender hated and regretted what he was forced into unwittingly doing,
hence his writing of the Hive Queen & Hegemon as well as the years of hearing
himself referred to as "Ender the Xenocide" without ever defending his actions
once.

I think that maybe you're too excited to be upset by this. Card is a twat, but
I hold that his books are a closet outlet for his rational mind.

