

Appsterdam: A Haven for Indie App Makers? - DeusExMachina
http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/27/appsterdam-a-haven-for-indie-developers/

======
tomh-
Instead of promoting Appsterdam with vague stories about how awesome Amsterdam
is, I like to see more concrete and specific information. I understand that
its just starting up, but this would be nice to have in the (near) future.

Like:

\- Average cost of living is X

\- Developers can earn X-Z salary

\- Tax burden for companies is X

\- You can find apartments in the range of X-Y at site Z

\- X companies joined this initiative and are hiring

\- There are weekly meetups at Bar X,Y,Z at time A

\- Successful companies in Amsterdam include X,Y,Z they are all hanging out at
location A

~~~
bxc
well, NL is pretty expensive to live in if you're earning USD; the tax burden
is high if you're used to the US (though there's some offset because that tax
includes what would be private medical insurance in the US); and people are
forever grumbling about how hard it is to find places to live in Amsterdam. So
maybe there's a reason for that.

The meeting on 6th July in their event planner is labelled as 'weekly' though
that would mean there should be one in a couple days too (?)

~~~
vegasbrianc
I lived in The Netherlands (right outside Amsterdam) for 6 years. It is a nice
country with a lot to do and see when it wasn't raining. But the Dutch tax the
heck out of you on everything. On the flip side you get an 8% holiday bonus
mandatory by the government but most companies already compensate this into
your salary already.

If you are an entrepreneur I would recommend never to hire a fulltime employee
and only hire contractors or be absolutely certain on who you hire. We had
such big problems with a few employees and the government would not let us
fire them. Our company had to pay them compensation and help find them a new
job?!?! We also had another employee that became to stressed with the workload
and the Dutch government told us we had to pay his salary until he returns for
up to 2 years.

Finally the nail in the coffin for me was the weather. I couldn't take wind
and rain for what seemed like months straight and summer lasting for sometimes
only 1 month.

I wish Appsterdam success but for me I prefer lower taxes and better climate.
Malta or Switzerland anyone?

~~~
saghul
About taxes: yes, they are high, very. But, if you play your cards right you
can get the '30% regeling', which means 30% of your salary is tax free. IIRC
you can get it for 4 years, and can be extended to 10.

------
lallouz
I'm pretty surprised that the topic of immigration and work visas hasn't come
up in this thread (unless I missed it, if so I appologize).

\- I for one am very curious about laws around foreigners coming to Amsterdam
to work, securing work visas etc.? \- How easy is it for an entrepreneur to
move there i.e. no job offer, just moving and looking for contract or to start
their own company?

------
breck
> "The conclusion I came to was that Amsterdam was the most livable city in
> the world."

Before publicly stating that idea I would have waited until I had lived in the
place for a few years.

I've been to Amsterdam and about 50 or so other cities in 30 countries(sorry
for the humble brag here). I would never come to that conclusion for one
reason: the winter weather.

I personally love the Northern California climate and would say San Francisco
is the most livable city in the world(I've lived there for 2.5 years). But
Amsterdam is a cool place and a great city. I could see how it'd be nice to
live there if you don't mind crummy weather in the winter.

~~~
DeusExMachina
He was here this winter and I can tell you it was pretty cold, so he already
experienced it.

From my personal point of view I can tell you that it's bearable. I biked all
winter long and I can bear it. That's not the only way to move of course, and
a lot of people take public transport during the winter, even though a good
percentage still bikes.

Moreover I like much more changing seasons and I'm not really a fan of hot
weather. That's why I love the summer here, it's more like a long spring.

Anyway, weather really comes down to personal preferences. I know people here
that don't like the weather and others that live with it very well. Here I
learned not to care that much about the weather, and it works for me.

~~~
breck
> Anyway, weather really comes down to personal preferences.

Exactly. I'm glad there are people like you that enjoy the winters(my family
in Boston does too--to a degree). Otherwise everyone would move to places like
California and it'd be pretty hard to live!

------
c4urself
The guy in the article is using Amsterdam too much as the reason for
Appsterdam; in the end the _community_ will make it what it is, whether it's
the best city or not won't matter if the community is a success.

That being said Amsterdam has enough of the ingredients to make that happen,
and I think it's a wonderful initiative, keep it going!

------
kaiwetzel
There were some interesting discussions here on hacker news before about
alternatives for startups in Europe [1], [2].

I don't quite understand the part about Berlin, though - why not raise a
family in Berlin (especially if the alternative is not some rural area but
other large cities)? I found the side-stab against Ireland a little weird as
well, wouldn't have considered Dublin to be "in the middle of nowhere", or was
that about attracting developers to join your startup in Dublin being hard?
(Never tried that, could well be the case). The last time I was in Amsterdam
10 years ago I thought it would be a nice place to live, but I feel the same
about Ireland and I am living in Berlin right now, so ... )

To put it short: I think all 4 cities are worth taking into account and it
depends a lot on your particular situation. Seeing startup funds like this pop
up is awesome and I hope more places in Europe will follow :°)

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375>

[2] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2573513> (link-baity title though)

~~~
amouat
I think the point about Dublin is that it is a bit further away if you are in
mainland Europe. It's not that far though, and it is closer to the USA.

------
richcollins
_I myself had no health insurance and no way of getting health insurance as a
self-employed person_

I'm self employed. It wasn't that hard to get health insurance. I guess YMMV.

~~~
bxc
In NL? You're required by law to have health insurance and the insurance
companies are required to give it to you. Assuming you're there legally.

------
credo
It is interesting that venturebeat stories about Appsterdam are making it to
the front page this week.

A few weeks ago, I submitted the original Appsterdam blog post to HN
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2476430>

That post was killed within minutes :)

------
vesto
What about the language barrier? Is English prominent enough in Amsterdam to
easily get through everyday interactions or would you need to learn an
entirely new language in order to truly enjoy the city?

~~~
sunchild
Yes, to the point that learning Dutch on the fly is hard because nobody will
try to speak it with you when they are so good with English.

~~~
skrebbel
If you approach someone in Dutch speaking with a (non-middle eastern) accent,
people will switch to English without asking. It's horribly annoying really,
learning the language (and thus _really_ picking up the oh so important
subtleties in professional and private life) is made really difficult this
way.

People often explain it as kindness, but it's really just plain rude laziness:
for many Dutch people, speaking slow and clear Dutch requires a lot more
energy than upspeed English. Let alone listening to and trying to understand
broken Dutch.

~~~
qF
I wouldn't call it rudeness, it's more a habit, you might find it rude, but
that is your interpretation. Holland is a really small country that survives
by trading with other countries. The countries around it are all much bigger
and tend to want to speak their own language (German, French, English) so it
has become common that the Dutch person adapts instead of forcing the other
person to speak Dutch.

Though funnily enough I will (during the summer) quite often get addressed in
German when I enter a shop, at which point I haven't even said anything yet
nor do I speak German.

~~~
wasigh
Happens to me always at the Dutch Coast. Somehow I look a bit German.

------
Tichy
Pfff, Appsterdam - I say Apperlin
<http://twitter.com/#!/fractality/status/85371377254809600>

Join the movement to make Berlin the new Sillicon Valley.

------
gavanwoolery
From the article:

“I became disillusioned with the way the United States was going in general. I
myself had no health insurance and no way of getting health insurance as a
self-employed person.”

Uh...no way of getting health insurance? How about PAYING for it? I hardly
make any money, but I can still afford the $120/month I pay for my health
insurance. Even if you go to a country like Europe with socialized healthcare,
you are still paying for it if you are making money, via taxes. In fact, you
are paying MORE for it since you are paying for your health insurance plus
insurance for all of the unemployed. Taxes go over 50 percent of income in
many European countries. In other words, there is no such thing as "free"
healthcare - someone always pays for it.

~~~
mattblalock
I am a healthy 24 year old male, no health problems in any way. I was quoted
health insurance in an attempt to find it after college, the cheapest plan was
$690/month.

~~~
wtvanhest
You need to look harder.

~~~
mattblalock
Look harder? What does that mean? There are what... 6 health insurance
providers per state? They all decide you are expensive, sucks to be you....

------
bxc
now I've made two comments on this thread which make amsterdam sound kinda
negative; so now I feel that I have to say that, no no amsterdam is a cool
place to live ;)

------
skrebbel
Are you going to post new Appsterdam articles every day now?

~~~
devindra
News flash, journalism involves following up on stories ;)

~~~
deciara
I think we are done for now though. Does that mean we have to write more
Silicon Valley stories :)

