
Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo - conorliv1
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2020/0513/In-each-other-s-shadows-Behind-Irish-outpouring-of-relief-for-Navajo?j=312538&sfmc_sub=27907397&l=1215_HTML&u=11383268&mid=10979696&jb=68&cmpid=ema:Weekender:20200516&src=newsletter
======
aclimatt
Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be
understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native
Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due
to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten
potatoes.

Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to
England. It's just that due to systematic oppression, Irish natives couldn't
afford anything that weren't (now blighted) potatoes.

That's where the parallel comes from with the Native Americans.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_\(Ireland\))

~~~
jajag
A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time
was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products -
cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence
tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies,
whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When
the potato blight occurred, they were still expected to pay their farm rents
using the produce they produced despite this leaving them without a food crop
for their own sustenance. Despite what's believed from the common narrative,
most of the landlords, middlemen and exporters facilitating the trade and
export of food from Ireland at this time were Irish, and many were Catholics;
and they were operating within an economic system were these actions made
sense. As they would have seen it, stopping the export of food stuffs would
have caused economic collapse.

In a modern state with well developed central government, the state would have
been able to step in and take appropriate actions. But governments of the
1840s simply didn't have the scope of action available to a modern government,
or the necessary vision of their role to accompany that. The result was a
tragedy of truly enormous proportions, and which certainly more could have
been done to avoid; but to suggest that it was simply due to 'systematic
oppression' is to greatly simplify the divisions that existed within Irish
society at the time, or the motivations of those involved.

~~~
discreteevent
No, most of the landlords were of British descent. The rest were under control
of the crown and the crown got their taxes. The upper classes, mainly British
and some Irish systematically bled the vast majority of the people.

>As they would have seen it, stopping the export of food stuffs would have
caused economic collapse.

They knew very well that it would have caused economic collapse only for the
people in power who were at no risk of dying. And they knew very well what
they could do to save the lives of people they saw starving all around them.
To say they could do nothing because 'it's the system' is ridiculous. The
people with power were the system. The people who starved had no real
representation and that's they way it was designed by the people in power,
namely the landlords and the government.

Even before the famine the reason a lot of the tenant farmers emigrated was
because if they managed to be in any way extra productive and make some profit
for themselves it was immediately taken from them in the form of some tax (see
for example the 'window' tax). This was systematic and the people in power
were responsible.

~~~
jajag
> No, most of the landlords were of British descent.

So landlords of British descent can't be considered Irish? Even if their
families had been present in Ireland for several centuries?

> To say they could do nothing because

Excuse me, where did I say they couldn't do anything? I was only trying to put
some context on the original comment, but it seems people are more interested
in being outraged.

~~~
hakka-nyu-su
> So landlords of British descent can't be considered Irish? Even if their
> families had been present in Ireland for several centuries?

There are people in 2020 whose families have been present in Ireland for
several centuries who still do not consider themselves Irish.

They're called 'Unionists' and rather consider themselves British, and hold
annual parades celebrating historical defeats of Ireland.

------
MarkMc
There is a similar story described by Robert Cialdini in his classic book,
_Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion_ [1]:

"In 1985 Ethiopia could justly lay claim to the greatest suffering and
privation in the world. Its economy was in ruin. Its food supply had been
ravaged by years of drought and internal war. Its inhabitants were dying by
the thousands from disease and starvation. Under these circumstances, I would
not have been surprised to learn of a five-thousand-dollar relief donation
from Mexico to that wrenchingly needy country. I remember my chin hitting my
chest, though, when a brief newspaper item I was reading insisted that the aid
had gone in the opposite direction. Native officials of the Ethiopian Red
Cross had decided to send the money to help the victims of that year’s
earthquakes in Mexico City...Despite the enormous needs prevailing in
Ethiopia, the money was being sent because Mexico had sent aid to Ethiopia in
1935, when it was invaded by Italy."

[1]
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28815.Influence](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28815.Influence)

~~~
pjc50
Extraordinary thing to happen at the time of Band Aid and the big donations
from the UK to Ethiopia following the first disturbing pictures of the famine
being broadcast on the news.

Disturbing pictures on the news are now so routine as to be ignored .. or
vanish altogether.

~~~
Cthulhu_
More likely ignored because there's things that draw more views happening
elsewhere.

Hong Kong protests took over the news for a while, but then there was the
Coronavirus and suddenly the Hong Kong protests seem to no longer be a thing
and the people forgotten.

~~~
pjc50
_Are_ the Hong Kong protests still happening? Or did everyone stay at home
during the pandemic?

It looks like the situation is now "punchup in the legislature, but everyone
is wearing facemasks": [https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-
kong/politics/article/3084822...](https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-
kong/politics/article/3084822/hong-kong-lawmakers-thrown-out-key-legislative-
council)

------
s_dev
I read this -- very proud of the efforts of the Irish but proud also that they
didn't forget those small acts of kindness. Showing gratitude is important and
I think this shows gratitude for the solidarity shown in the past.

We're also aware 'Choctaw' and 'Hopi' and 'Navajo' are all different tribes
and Native Americans aren't a monolithic group. It's just hard if not nigh on
impossible to give back to the exact people that helped us. It's the sentiment
that counts in this sense.

~~~
hellofunk
The hundreds of Native American tribes of centuries past were as different
from each other as they were different from European cultures. In fact the
many different regions of Europe have always had much more in common with each
other than the original tribes of North America had with each other.

~~~
Apocryphon
Well, perhaps the commonality in this case is that both the Irish and the
Native American tribes involved were oppressed by Anglo cultures.

------
inetsee
When I see stories like this I wish there was some way on Hacker News that I
could spend some of my karma points to give this story more than one up vote.

~~~
Talanes
As someone who's still internalized pre-voting internet discussions, and just
reads things without voting 99% of the time, I saw your comment and upvoted.
Some real karma for you :)

~~~
Abishek_Muthian
I run a problem validation forum[1] where I'm experimenting with the karma
system; one can donate karma to 'Down Vote' but not for an 'Up Vote'.

'Up Vote' privileges requires minimal karma(2), 'Down Vote' privileges are
rather high(20).

Karma is visible only to the owner and the moderators.

Rationale being, people shouldn't be discouraged to post their problems
however small or trivial it may sound and others to share possible ideas to
solve that problem or existing solutions without any prejudice.

Ofcourse this raises the issue of people not willing to part their karma to
maintain forum sanctity, but as of now that's manageable when compared to
discouragement from down votes.

[1][https://needgap.com](https://needgap.com)

~~~
MattGaiser
> Ofcourse this raises the issue of people not willing to part their karma to
> maintain forum sanctity, but as of now that's manageable when compared to
> discouragement from down votes.

Not a problem on Stack Overflow. And the website is a neat concept too.

------
nailer
Having an Irish dad, there's a common sense of solidarity between Irish people
and other groups who are often seen as oppressed. My Dad and uncles etc. would
identify with the Black Panthers, and the PLO, as and a kid (in Australia) I'd
wonder why these groups that were so far away and so different were important,
and they'd say something along the lines of "because they're us" \- like this
is the most obvious thing that anyone should know.

There's good and bad here (there's a tendency to see the world as 'oppressor'
and 'oppressed'), but it comes from good intentions.

~~~
patrickk
A similar dynamic is at play with Celtic fans (historically Catholic football
club in Glasgow) and support for Palestine.

[https://medium.com/@JohnWight1/celtic-football-fans-and-
why-...](https://medium.com/@JohnWight1/celtic-football-fans-and-why-
palestine-matters-997c009d035d)

------
mywacaday
In 2015 my local town erected a sculpture to commemorate the event. Maybe
that's why the story is fresh in Irish memory.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindred_Spirits_(sculpture)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindred_Spirits_\(sculpture\))

[https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/kindred-spirits-
sculptur...](https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/kindred-spirits-sculpture)

~~~
doinathing
Seeing the donations coming in (and making one myself) I was reminded that
this sculpture is the reason I know about the event in the first place and,
saw the significance of the help, and felt moved to donate. It made me think a
lot about how public art and the things we commemorate with public art can
have a tangible impact on our actions and our beliefs.

------
qwerty456127
I've already read the story a number of times (incl. here IIRC) during the
recent weeks so, despite it's cool, heart-touching and inspiring, it's nothing
new.

What impressed me this time, however, is the quick read / deep read switch
articles on this website have. It's the first time I see such and I bloody
freakin wish every website had it!

~~~
bcoates
Maybe we need a little badge for articles that are inverted-pyramid compliant
and you can stop reading whenever you like

------
ConsiderCrying
It's always a bit sad to see people rely on the chance charity of others, even
if, in most cases, these others come through. The Navajo people have been let
down by the people ruling over their land (no, I don't mean the Navajo
leaders.)

But the Irish/Choctaw friendship is one of my favorite uplifting stories if
only because it's about those who have little giving it away to people in a
similar predicament. It's still sad but there's so much kindness in that
gesture.

I think I remember a similar story where an Indian or Shri Lankan city sent
some livestock to a starving European city, but can't find anything at the
moment.

------
1cvmask
Hear is another similar story with a twist from English royalty:

[https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/generous-
turkish-...](https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/generous-turkish-aid-
irish-great-hunger)

~~~
frabbit
That is particularly galling. It is interesting that the story was challenged
in its totality when (ex) president Mary Robinson mentioned it during a visit
to Turkey (she incorrectly stated that the heraldic coat of arms of Drogheda
town contained a star-and-crescent in gratitude for this act, whereas it was
the emblem of an earlier English military governor).

------
blendo
I have great respect for the Navajo and Hopi people of Arizona and New Mexico.

~~~
oh_sigh
I have great respect for the Scottish people of Scotland.

~~~
mirimir
My first wife's Scottish ancestors came from Ireland.

------
pwdisswordfish2
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn0QH-
khhr8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn0QH-khhr8)

------
youngNed
As is the case in a lot of discussion that touches on Irish History, in this
thread there are a lot of really bad takes - for anyone interested in a good,
well balanced, summary delivered by experts in under an hour - i really
recommend the BBC 'In Our Time' podcast on this subject - as with all of these
shows, its pretty dense with info and facts from a number of sources:

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003rj1](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003rj1)

------
edwardor
There is an amazing podcast series —
[https://irishhistorypodcast.ie/category/podcast/the-great-
fa...](https://irishhistorypodcast.ie/category/podcast/the-great-famine/) —
about the Great Famine if anyone is interested in learning more.

