
Keep Your Identity Small   - mqt
http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html
======
immad
I think I concur that in educated discussions Identity does not help, but I
have been thinking through the importance of identity for a while.

I think in many situations identity gives you strength. I have an identity
within Y Combinator, with my family, with people that went to my University,
in the countries I have lived in etc. These fragments of my identity all give
me strength, it means I would help people out that have similar identity to me
and I know people in those groups would help me. Beyond aid, it also give me
purpose and meaning.

This balance between the good and the part parts of having Identity are
important. I don't think one should just try to blindly minimize identity.
Maybe just try to keep an open mind in discussions about Identity.

~~~
pg
You're right. That's why I was careful to qualify it with "all other things
being equal."

In general identity gives you strength while making you stupid. This can
sometimes be a good trade, especially in stressful situations. E.g. I think
this is one reason people in the US are so much more religious than they were
when I was a kid. People who 30 years ago might have been skeptical of
preachers are now thinking that religion may at least save their kids from
meth.

~~~
immad
"identity gives you strength while making you stupid"

Couldn't something similar be said about any emotional response. In that
emotional responses give you something but are inherently irrational.

~~~
bdr
You could also see emotion as heuristic behavior guides that were calculated
by evolution. Many decisions are so computationally complex that reasoning
isn't useful.

------
adsyoung
Its posts like this and Paul's "How to Disagree" that remind me of an idea
that I keep coming back to again and again.

I've often wondered what would be possible in terms of designing a website
that aims to moderate debate in a way that leads to new ideas and conclusions
and attempts to negate as many of these types of effects as possible.

Some formal system, that the users would have no choice but to follow, that
begins with some one making a statement such as "X is true because of Y and Z"
and then everyone debates it, reforms the statement as necessary and at some
point it gets locked in as either true or false and then the discussion has to
proceed based on that understanding.

People are forced to address each others points and eliminate as much bias as
possible in their statements.

You could visually map out the progress that gets made until perhaps some new
interesting conclusion gets reached.

Obviously no perfect solution exists but for me its an interesting question of
how useful a system could be designed. There's also the obvious problems that
a) few people are likely to want to use such a system and b) those that do are
probably skewed to favor some particular point of view.

There is just so much wasted energy on the internet not being harnessed for
actual progress. There are many blogs etc that have been created with the
specific purpose of progressing some cause or area of expertise but people are
just turning up, yelling opinions at one another and leaving with very little
gained. Such is life I guess...

~~~
adsyoung
To go into a bit more detail of this likely pipe dream...

One approach could be to have a group of site moderators who make it their
mission to, as Paul said, keep their identities as small as possible and
simply judge the logic and biases of peoples arguments.

Perhaps their vote is what locks in a statement to be taken as true or false
and then everyone has to then play by the rule of accepting their judgment on
the matter for future debates.

In a similar way that scientific research builds on the work that was done
before it to make progress, standing on the shoulders of giants type stuff,
the conversation could be mapped to show these towers of progress grow as
people logically move from "if A is true then B must be true..." and so on.

Perhaps the debate branches at points of contention and goes off down
different paths.

The idea being that anyone can join in and quickly get up to speed as to where
the conversation is up to by looking at the map of statements that have been
dealt with so far.

If someone wants to reopen the debate around some statement and attack the
foundation of one of these towers and bring it crashing down then they can.

Of course an enormous element of this will be based on the subjective judgment
of the moderators. It can't be entirely based on pure logic but if it is
useful and leads to new and interesting things then who cares...

Even if it succeeded in removing a lot of the crap around a debate and focus
precisely on the points that people differ on so they can be attacked directly
I think that would be a useful thing.

My idea for making this somewhat enjoyable and stand a chance of people
participating in it would be to make it game like in some way.

Anyway, its all pretty out there stuff I know, but I'll no doubt continue to
think about anyway...

~~~
mighty
It's not a pipe dream. There are some folks out there working on this kind of
stuff, and I prototyped one for my master's project. However, I didn't go the
route of having propositional-level granularity, because I'm aiming for
Wikipedia levels of participation, and it's understood in HCI that the more
structure you impose on input at the interface level, the lower the adoption.

Some stuff you may want to look up (all but the first are actually online):

    
    
      MIT's Collaboratorium (should be an article in Sloan)
      DebateGraph
      TruthMapping
      DebateWise
      Debatepedia
    

There are also a bunch of other more commercial attempts whose names I can't
recall. ReadWriteWeb or a similar site did a roundup of them last year. But
they suck. Even the listed examples have probems insofar as they screw up the
interface, interaction design, and/or information architecture. (That is, if
the goal is to achieve widespread use.) Within small, interested communities,
there may be sufficient motivation to use them. In Collaboratorium's case,
they had a class at MIT use it w/r/t climate change.

If you're really interested in tackling this problem, let me know. I'm too
busy working on a for-profit venture to keep developing my MS project, but my
design doc might give you some ideas, even if you don't go the route I did.

~~~
Jd
I'm interested in your design doc and future discussion on this topic.

------
RK
A technical note about his note [1]. pg says, _When that happens, it tends to
happen fast, like a core going critical_ , but he probably means "like a core
going _super_ critical", which is when a chain reaction goes on at an
increasing rate (i.e. what you need for a nuclear explosion). Critical is an
equilibrium (i.e the self-sustaining condition, as used for power generation).

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_mass>

~~~
palish
More important than technical accuracy, I knew what he meant.

------
benhoyt
Preface: one thing I like about PG's essays is that even though I often
strongly disagree with his position, they really make me think, and force me
to clarify my own position in my mind.

The essay said, "people can never have a fruitful argument about something
that's part of their identity".

Hmmm. I don't think that's correct at all. For example, I have a great
marriage, and my wife's a big part of my identity, but we've had many fruitful
discussions about marriage and related issues. Being a Christian is also a big
part of who I am, but that doesn't stop me having fruitful discussions about
it (admittedly usually not online). If it's with an atheist or agnostic,
sometimes I'm sharpened, and sometimes they're challenged.

There's a big difference between being blinkered, and having strong but
clearly-argued positions that weave in and out of your identity.

~~~
pg
Husbands and wives are a special case. They know they can't afford to let a
disagreement get out of control. You may be able to talk about controversial
topics in a situation like that, where some kind of external force keeps the
participants civil.

------
astine
PGs thesis seems to boil down to this: If you believe in something strongly
enough, it will cause you to want to defend it and you may compromise your
rationality and civility as a result. For which reason we should believe in as
little as possible and be as non-committal in our beliefs.

I'm not sure that this is an ethically tenable position: shallowness extolled
as a virtue. It's true, people who don't believe in anything don't argue about
religion and politics, they fight over fashion and celebrities. I'd prefer
people to have strong, well-formed opinions that they are ready to defend,
even against me, to people with no opinion at all.

~~~
pg
No, that wasn't what I was saying. There is a difference between having strong
opinions and considering something part of your identity. You can discard an
opinion if you get sufficient evidence to the contrary. It's harder to discard
your identity.

Moreover, identifying as something doesn't necessarily take the form of having
any specific opinions. E.g. identifying as southern (in the US) may cause you
to have certain opinions, but it doesn't consist of having them. Someone who
wasn't southern but happened to have the same opinions wouldn't thereby
identify as southern.

~~~
astine
I believe that if you hold certain opinions, strongly enough, they change who
you are. If you truly believe in the value of altruism (for example) you can't
help but become more altruistic. If you don't let your opinions change who you
are, it's a fair question to ask, whether you even hold those opinions.

Granted, I understand that you are more concerned with making sure people keep
a certain emotional distance from their opinions, so that they can maintain a
level of objectivity, but I'm not sure that that is always feasible, without
adopting a certain kind of passivity or relativism.

------
mynameishere
I can't tell if this advice is intended for technical matters or a general
sense. In real life, a person is going to have a lot of real identities (that
can be actively ignored by that person, but not so easily dispensed with.) The
same person might be a father, an accountant, a divorcee, an alcoholic, a
cancer-survivor, a member of an ethnic group, a 45-year-old, etc, etc, and all
of these will inevitably effect that person's mental state and behavior.

A relative of mine voted for BHO because she thought he would be "good for
teachers". Lots of people think this way. A friend of mine loved a previous
governor because he was "good for divorced fathers". Public policy is a huge
subject, but people will throw away every consideration for a specific
connection. People who don't play this game (or play it badly [1]) become the
victims, rather than the benefactors, of a massive bureaucracy.

The advice is, in fact, really bad advice (if intended generally). It amounts
to: Don't stick up for yourself.

[1] The two examples I mentioned were playing it very badly, for instance.

------
kajecounterhack
_A scientist isn't committed to believing in natural selection in the same way
an evangelical Christian is committed to rejecting it._

I disagree, I'm an evangelical Christian and I don't reject it.

~~~
astine
Yeah, that statement bothered me to. People seeming to assume that just
because a vocal minority of a group believe something, that all members of the
group believe the same thing. This especially includes people who's expressed
ideology hopes to avoid prejudice and bigotry. Thought I don't think PG,
really thinks all Evangelicals are YECs. at least I hope he doesn't.

~~~
pg
My mistake. I changed it to "a biblical literalist."

~~~
kirse
_My mistake. I changed it to "a biblical literalist."_

Whether it was intentional or not, your [2] paragraph there seems to reveal
part of your own identity with the scientific community, primarily because of
the way it was phrased. It reads as if the scientist is completely and
entirely committed to the rational, while cleverly mentioning that those
identifying with religion clearly toss the evidence out of the window.

Of course the literalist does this because his world-view does not permit it,
but this sophistry ignores the larger picture that both the scientist and the
literalist hold equally irrational worldviews -- one in scientific naturalism
and one in the Bible + scientific empiricism.

Both world-views are far from grounded in complete rationality and both world-
views function on powerful assumptions that hardly qualify either individual
as completely rational, a distinct difference from how your paragraph depicts
the two individuals. I think robg states it best here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=396215>

Of course, I am a Christian and have my passionate identity tied to this
discussion, but it was interesting how you chose to portray the scientist as
rational and the religious believer as irrational. Was that intentional, or
was it a little bit of personal identity peeking through in your writing?

This is not my attempt to "read into" your writing, but given this context of
personal identity (which we know both consciously and subconsciously shapes
everything we do), I was interested to know if your writing here was shaped by
your own identity. I'm pretty confident it was, given that you're definitely
not trying to deceive anyone here, but you are certainly providing a slanted
view on reality.

~~~
Nwallins
> It reads as if the scientist is completely and entirely committed to the
> rational, while cleverly mentioning that those identifying with religion
> clearly toss the evidence out of the window.

I believe the scientific community is _defined_ by complete commitment to the
rational. Sure, there are people who _claim_ to be scientists, but the
scientific method is an exercise in pure rationality.

As well, generally speaking, ultra-religious people tend to discount evidence
that contradicts their faith.

In contrast, ultra-scientific people accept new evidence that contradicts
their previously-held beliefs. They update the model and move on.

I'm sure there are examples to the contrary and I do see a "No true Scotsman"
fallacy looming on the horizon of this line of argument.

~~~
kirse
_I believe the scientific community is defined by complete commitment to the
rational. Sure, there are people who claim to be scientists, but the
scientific method is an exercise in pure rationality._

You would do best to rephrase that statement in far less concrete terms,
because scientists (more specifically -- "scientists" trying to answer "why"
and "how" our existence came about) are hardly playing in the arena of
complete and total rationality.

As I linked before, scientists far smarter than myself have noted that the
rational scientific method used in empirical observation oversteps its
rational boundaries when it attempts to answer existential questions -- those
are the only real questions that are even disputed between religion and
science. No intelligent religious person questions the complete rationality of
empirical observation and the scientific method behind that, so the only
domain were talking about here is that which is under dispute.

In this domain of dispute between religion and science, where it's pretty
evident both world-views are in fact NOT completely rational (i.e.
conjecturing about the unobservable and unmeasurable), it would only be fair
to say that neither the scientist or religious believer has a completely
rational answer that explains their own existence. This is a distinct
difference from how the scientist and religious believer are subjectively
viewed as concretely rational vs. irrational, when it is crystal clear that is
not the true big picture of the differing world-views.

Nevertheless, the major problem here is that these questions of existence are
answered in the name of Science. The common person understands science to be
the authority on all things rational, because they've seen it in practical use
on all things _empirical_. The only problem is that most fail to realize that
the scientific method only has true rational authority in the domain of the
empirical. Can't you see the inherent problem here? Science has no more
authority in answering existential questions than any other world-view,
because all of science's rational authority comes from the empirical, where
things can be measured, observed, modified, etc.

~~~
Nwallins
In the realm of unmeasurable and unobservable, I agree that the empirical
method is impotent, and science can only conject, in a manner similar to
religion.

------
DaniFong
One trouble with following this line of reasoning to its limits is simply that
one doesn't have an endless supply of mental energy. It is not merely easier
to mark something about yourself as known and solid, and move on; it also
frees cycles for other things. One simply can't go about life questioning
every action in terms of its relationship to values which you are supposed to
figure out. It's too hard.

So, perhaps it might be best to say "keep your identity as small as possible,
but no smaller."

~~~
gruseom
I don't see how it consumes mental energy to be less judgmental and make fewer
identifications. If anything, the opposite is the case. Carrying a heavy
identity takes a lot of energy: you have to defend yourself against anyone
criticizing any piece of it.

As for "following this line of reasoning to its limits", there are very few
people who have. I came to the conclusion it was better not to try, as such;
you're most likely to end up in self-deception if you do.

~~~
GHFigs
In the case of religion and politics, it seems more difficult to maintain a
lack of strongly-held opinion, as attempting to do so puts you at odds with
most people who have one. Inevitably, someone will try to argue that your
faithlessness or lack of political conviction is itself a faith or conviction,
and it may very well become one if you get pulled into that.

Meanwhile, the even the most free-thinking of the faithful in anything come
equipped with dogma, which requires little mental energy to invoke. This
partially explains why arguments tend to be the same over and over again--
they've been reduced to dogma vs. dogma.

------
sayrer
"I think what religion and politics have in common is that they become part of
people's identity"

This essay doesn't touch on what it actually means for an idea to become part
of someone's identity. I think I have a rough notion of what was intended, but
understanding how it works better would be more enlightening.

The essay also attempts to separate science from things like politics and
religion. I'm not sure that's a good idea. Lots of things that masqueraded as
science, medicine, and rationality in the past look ridiculous to us now. In
fact, history should tell us that any system of thought that looks so
obviously right probably has big blind spots.

To use the example in the essay, the label "scientist" might not help you in
negotiations or politics. There, you have to understand what the opposition
wants in order to get things done. Identifying yourself as a scientist doesn't
prevent empathy, but it can if you use that system of thought when you
shouldn't.

------
kurtosis
I think we can also observe that the topics people weakly identify with are
common topics for small talk e.g. weather, movies, pets etc.

~~~
patio11
Family is also a common subject of small talk ("How is your wife doing?"),
which is identity-plus-plus for most people, and the mating habits of snails
are topics most people weakly identify with but not commonly used for small
talk, so I'm guessing that relationship is a little less persuasive than it
seems to be at first brush.

~~~
fizx
We avoid confrontation on identity-plus-plus topics. Try starting a
conversation with, "So your wife's kinda a bitch, eh?"

~~~
patio11
Right, but the thesis is that it is unsafe to even _mention_ identity because
it invites catastrophic conversational degradation. The observed ability to
talk about family without someone saying uncharitable things about your wife
cuts against the thesis.

~~~
greendestiny
Both participants need to identify strongly. If two guys strongly identify
over the same woman there will be trouble with any talk about her. People
fight over sporting teams, but you can ask a fan about the season without
conflict if you don't identify with the sport.

------
joubert
"Since no one can be proven wrong, every opinion is equally valid, and sensing
this, everyone lets fly with theirs."

No, every opinion is not equally valid - there is a range of probabilities
into which opinions can be classified. The more improbable the belief, the
less valid it is. One doesn't have to prove that a theory is 100% wrong,
merely that on the scale of probability it scores poorly against a rival
theory.

For example, I may believe the earth is 4,000 years old but it is a
demonstrably false opinion. It doesn't matter how sincerely I believe this or
that a quarter of the planet's humans believe that. Similarly, there is one
good explanation for how and when life originated on earth, and all the other
"competing" opinions are highly improbable.

One of religion's goals is to explain the world, but science does a much
better job, and yet people's religious beliefs are expected to be respected,
even if they are stupid and childish (which they are most of the time).
Another goal of religion is to set a standard for morals, and yet holy books
are full of despicable, horrendously grotesque, anti-human "morals".

I think that one of the reasons people have a hard time admitting their
religions and religious beliefs are fantasies is that they have been
indoctrinated since childhood that faith is a virtue, to not ask WHY. Some of
this appears to have its origin in natural selection, because children who
believe at face value what their parents tell them are more likely to survive.

~~~
gnaritas
You can't argue against religion with logic or facts, if that were possible
religion would have died a long time ago.

As far as everyone is concerned, all opinions pretty much are equally valid,
whether they actually are or not doesn't seem to matter.

~~~
parenthesis
One _can_ argue against (a) religion with logic and facts.

With logic: one can exhibit contradictions in religious doctrines. (If there
are any.)

With facts: for example geological/fossil evidence can be used to argue
against creationism. (The best one can do in trying to put forward 'facts' is
to put forward what is well supported by the available evidence, and better
supported than known alternatives. So, here for example, one would also have
to try and find fault with whatever evidence can be brought forward in support
of creationism.)

Whether or not those on each side of a debate will give due dispassionate
consideration to the other sides' arguments, is another matter, however.
Presumably, what you meant was that one can't argue _successfully_ against
religion with logic or facts.

~~~
wensing
_With logic: one can exhibit contradictions in religious doctrines. (If there
are any.)_

I've always found it a bad idea to pretend to be an expert in someone else's
religion. Pointing out contradictions in someone else's religion 99.9% of the
time is just going to make you sound very ignorant as to how people interpret
the things that you find at first glance contradictory.

~~~
jacoblyles
Christianity has had 2,000 years to iron out the obvious contradictions. I am
pretty sure that the more mature faiths are consistent if you accept their
axioms.

I doubt you can think of anything that Augustine and Aquinas didn't. The dudes
had nothing else to do but think.

------
Create
I think pg is entirely missing the point: it isn't about identity. It is about
[exercising] power, and its subjects. Identity, like technology (mentioned
javascript) is just a tool for it.

He might like <http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2733964> (it is available in
several languages) -- it explains the obvious: religious wars are in fact not
about religion, neither identity. To most, even believing people, it does not
matter for the faith, if the body and blood are actually present in the
Eucharist or not. This is more of a pretext, an artificially created
differentiation [marketing, PR if you like] to create identity, to exhibit
disagreement [over other issues]. In the end, it is nothing more than struggle
over control/power/resources. See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Revolt>

~~~
whacked_new
pg is not missing the point.

Protecting the identity is an act of securing one's control, and hence, power,
and sense of survival fitness. Furthermore, groups sharing common identity
strengthen the feeling of kinship, and hence again, stronger control. This is
an evolutionary psychology interpretation (in which this topic has been
discussed to great depths).

Notice that below a puberty it's much harder to find polarized arguments like
the "wars" we talk about. One may argue that mental development is one reason,
but another factor, closely related to development, is that at this age the
brain is still highly malleable, and the identity is weak. A kid could argue
vehemently about a particular idea (note this is different from preference, as
in food). It is entirely plausible that if you get their parents and friends
to influence them you could turn the entire idea around in a short time.

Not so with adults. They'd simply leave the premises and find people who
agree.

That isn't to say you are wrong -- but that what you seem to think is an
entirely different idea from what pg wrote is actually quite similar.

------
Eliezer
"One possible explanation is that they deal with questions that have no
definite answers, so there's no back pressure on people's opinions. Since no
one can be proven wrong, every opinion is equally valid, and sensing this,
everyone lets fly with theirs."

Mentioning this view should always, I think, be accompanied by a disclaimer.
As Michael Rooney wrote: "The error here is similar to one I see all the time
in beginning philosophy students: when confronted with reasons to be skeptics,
they instead become relativists. That is, where the rational conclusion is to
suspend judgment about an issue, all too many people instead conclude that any
judgment is as plausible as any other."
[http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/knowing_about_b.html#c...](http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/knowing_about_b.html#comment-65469912)

When evidence is weak or conflicting, there's still a particular _correct
state of uncertainty_ you should be in as a result. So even those who
(incorrectly) assert that agnosticism is the correct response to religious
teapots are still asserting the atheists and theists to be wrong.

------
gruseom
It's interesting that an essay about how to avoid religious arguments should
center around a timeless spiritual principle. (I wouldn't say it's ironic,
though; what's ironic is how people turn religions into their opposites and
still call them the same thing.) This principle (of non-identification) is
also very practical. It's amazing to me how often suffering comes from saying
"I am X", therefore "I am negated if X is negated". The converse is also true:
it's amazing how much more freely one can live when one doesn't do that.

------
just_me
Until I moved to San Francisco ten years ago my identity was wrapped up in my
home region of my home state. SF was where I finally let it go. I can
perfectly remember the moment I realized I could. How exhilarating that was!
And it started a landslide. I'll bet I don't have 10% the identity I did back
then.

(It helped that I had long before figured out that when people speak of "X
pride" or "Proud to be X", it means that X sucks. Say this without laughing:
"Proud to be a physicist at Lawrence Livermore". Then try googling "Harvard
pride". Hmm, I didn't even know there _was_ a Harvard, Illinois.)

This is such a ridiculously brilliant essay. How in the hell does Paul keep
doing this? I've been living this exact strategy for years and even advising
people to do it too. Yet for me it remained a jumble of half-considered
thoughts. (Please don't tell me I should reconsider having "smart guy" within
my identity.) Another triumph, Paul. Thank you.

~~~
gnaritas
> This is such a ridiculously brilliant essay.

Um.. I think that's going a bit far. Interesting take on well known fact that
people who identify heavily with something aren't very rational about being
challenged on it, but "ridiculously brilliant", I think not.

~~~
just_me
He started with "Why do political and religious discussions suck?" and ended
up with a recipe to make oneself smarter.

I wonder how many tens of millions of people have wondered that exact thing
and ended up with "Well, some topics are just inherently controversial"?

~~~
gnaritas
Sorry, it just wasn't really particularly insightful. Buddhists have been
teaching detachment for thousands of years, slow and methodical destruction of
the ego until you become totally an observer, purely aware.

You are not your car, you are not your job, you are not your religion, etc,
etc, this is not anything new, and while it is wise, it's certainly not some
stunningly brilliant new idea from Paul.

I'm not knocking Paul either, I very much like his writing, some of his essays
are fantastic, but c'mon, this isn't that great. The word fanboy'ism springs
to mind.

------
swb
I don't know about religion, but I think you are righter than you might guess
about politics. Most political discussions ultimately devolve into an argument
between collectivists and individualists. If you think about it, most of the
individualists have direct access to some sort of resources, such as land,
capital, intelligence, or whatever, that aren't possessed by the
collectivists. In other words, they are privileged, either by custom (law),
biology, or just plain circumstance. The collectivists have no such luck. They
have nothing to work with directly. They consequently have no choice but to
work indirectly. That is, they HAVE to work collectively, for the supposed
good of everybody. The option of working directly with resources, without
paying some sort of toll, or exclusively for one's own good, isn't there. No
amount of logic or talk can change this situation. BTW, I should make it clear
here that I'm not downing collectivists. You'd be a fool not to run with what
you were given. What needs to be changed is how resources are allocated, not
the rational behavior of people who are stuck with a particular allocation.
Some of this (such as land distribution) could possibly be addressed
culturally. Some, however, such as differences in intelligence, cannot be. In
any event for all practical purposes the person's political stand might as
well be an indelible part of their identity.

------
jayasankar
"To question history, to correct it, you need people who are not anyone's
children." Anand, Indian Writer.

Oddly, this same thought has been on my mind for quite a few weeks now. To
move forward, especially to look back at history and learn from it, we can't
be anyone's children, however uninstinctive and bastardly it sounds.

Because if we are going to become someones lineage, rationally we should go
back to that incestous tribe somewhere in southern Africa. And all of us too.
It is undoubtedly our partial knowledge and living with the legacy of the few
generations before us that many a time makes us unable to rationally and
honestly analyze and learn and move forward.

There are two not-insignificant roadblocks to this. Perhaps more too.

The first one can best be illustrated by a 'lower-caste' friend of mine who
once told me that his identity is something he didn't choose and can't escape
from, most probably, till he dies.

The second is the weltanschauung question. What if you really do believe that
you are part of the blessed tribe/religion/group/whatever. So it also requires
a 'scientific worldview' for the lack of a better phrase.

In both, in different ways, the identity imposed or chosen becomes the
lifelong prison.

Regards, Jay <http://www.jayasankar.org>

PS:- Paul, this was too small and sort of 'Cliff Notes' type. May I request a
longer, deeper essay.

------
zaidf
This essay reminds me of this bollywood song:

    
    
      Bulla Ki Jaana
    
      Not a believer inside the mosque, am I
      Nor a pagan disciple of false rites
      Not the pure amongst the impure
      Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh
    
      Bulleh! to me, I am not known
      ...
      Secrets of religion, I have not known
      From Adam and Eve, I am not born
      I am not the name I assume
      Not in stillness, nor on the move
    
      Bulleh! to me, I am not known
    

Full lyrics:
[http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/r/rabbi_shergill/bulla_ki_j...](http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/r/rabbi_shergill/bulla_ki_jaana_english.html)

Video: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTxZy32Fv_0>

~~~
ajju
It is astounding how little this liberal face of Islam is known outside of the
Indian subcontinent and possibly the educated populace of Iran.

~~~
ajju
Also, this is not a Bollywood song. It is a poem by a 17th/18th century
Punjabi Sufi Muslim poet Bulleh Shah performed here by a Punjabi Sikh called
"Rabbi" with scenes from Hindu majority India in the background and English
subtitles.

So many identities :)

------
brianto2010
I think that the point of the article is not to "Keep Your Identity Small",
but to not be a jerk about it. _"Which topics engage people's identity depends
on the people, not the topic."_ People's actions are not the result of their
beliefs, but themselves. The topic of conflict, religion (one of your
examples), is only the medium. To rephrase, people decide when to fight, the
people's beliefs are only a push. With enough discipline, a hardcore religious
person can avoid a religious war.

> _Most people reading this will already be fairly tolerant. But there is a
> step beyond thinking of yourself as x but tolerating y: not even to consider
> yourself an x. The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make
> you._

From what I can tell, Mr. Graham, you make the assumption that identity
('labels') itself is bad and should be minimized. I disagree. Identity,
whatever the kind, serves the purpose of providing a person a sense of self.
In other words, identity helps create a sense of belonging and protection.
Forming an identity is like entering a family.

* Whether that family is good or not is subjective.

Mr. Graham, using your religion metaphor, a religion does provide many useful
outcomes. After the Civil War and into Reconstruction, there was massive
economic turmoil. There was a large debt to be paid, the sharecropping 'trap',
the Financial Crisis of 1837. During that time, a lot of churches were formed.
Essentially, the purpose of those churches is to provide emotional relief from
the horrid state of the Union. These churches were a coping mechanism for the
people. Generally, they worked. People formed a religious identity with the
people they were with. Religion provided comfort. Identity is not always bad.

As a political example, in 1860, a party known as the Populist Party was
formed. It was composed of farmers and the Grange. These people formed this
'Populist Party' identity because they all faced common problems: long hours,
a cycle of debt, and control by monopolies. In a short span of time, the
spread their identity and 4 million people joined the movement. They promoted
the idea of a 8 hour work week, direct federal loans, and graduated tax rates.
Many of these ideas are implemented today. Political identity provided people
a voice. Their identity is beneficial to many people today.

* This came from my U.S. History notes from class.

Mr. Graham, I agree with you that social identity causes many problems, but it
also provides many benefits. Please do not dismiss identity as completely
harmful.

I am sorry if I offended anyone. Downvote me if you wish.

~~~
jacoblyles
>I think that the point of the article is not to "Keep Your Identity Small",
but to not be a jerk about it

Good point. The topics that can be discussed by a group are a function of the
civility of its members. Some of the most interesting conversations I've ever
had were about religion and politics with civil and mature people.

That's a high standard to ask of a group of strangers on the internet, though.

------
DanielBMarkham
It might not just be identifying with something. It doesn't seem that it's
completely identify based, at least to me.

I drive a Jeep -- love old Jeeps. It's part of who I am. But if somebody
started ragging on Jeeps in a forum I was in I don't think it'd matter. I
wouldn't feel threatened. I like Jeeps. So what. I also like puppies.

Some subjects make people feel threatened because to talk about them, in any
fashion, is to _personally criticize their judgment and their intelligence._

It's the degree people feel threatened. Most people, when you poke around at
their politics or their religion, realize their is something deeply irrational
going on in their head. They don't take kindly to having people mucking around
in there, questioning their sanity -- their value as a fellow person. Religion
and politics are topics where the fact that emotions drive reasoning is very
close to the surface. It makes probing difficult.

As a further example, I disagree with Paul's opinion on languages. Inevitably
we get into a discussion of what "best" means. At the end of the day, "best"
usually means whatever I personally value. To criticize that is to criticize
how I make opinions. Paul values terseness. Bob values availability of
programmer. Joe values available libraries, etc. Once we start questioning
judgment -- especially for programmers -- it gets personal.

I've been in the consulting biz for a while -- long enough to move from code
monkey to trying to help managers make better decisions. A lot of this is like
poking around in a minefield: on some topics people feel their
character/intelligence/judgment is a lot more at stake than others. These are
the topics you don't want to go bringing up in a forum, online or not.

~~~
yters
I think it is more than just having one's sanity questioned. Speaking for
myself, I react this way not because I don't value rationality over what feels
good, but its that it seems there is knowledge behind my belief and I'm being
forced to reject it because I am not articulate enough to defend it. This can
be a major problem if the cultural context of the debate does not contain the
right words and concepts to explain what I believe. Consequently, since
debates go to the most succinct and clear, I must lose, but not due to
necessarily having a more irrational belief. Then, if I persist in my belief,
I become ostracized as an irrational person.

Articles like this merely fuel the feeling of impotence in the culturally
disadvantaged like myself, leading to a more irrational defense of their (my)
beliefs, and a vicious cycle follows. This is the "core going critical" that
pg mentions. The ultimate result will be a more "rational" person, but they
are more "rational" because they have been lobotimized.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
I look at politics and religion as deeply personal choices. I also think they
are somewhat "beyond reason" -- I don't want to use the term irrational
because my point is that the rules of rationality don't apply. Perhaps trans-
rational? And when I mean religion, I include the atheists here. They're as
impervious to reason as any of the others, but mostly can't see it, which
makes them a bit humorous to deal with.

The problem is that most folks are 1) very uncomfortable with this situation,
and 2) can't find the words to express the "why" of what they are saying
(except for the rationalists, who will use reason ad infinitum regardless of
which side of the issue they stand)

I think the most honest responses are, like yours, where you say that there's
good reasons that you just can't get to. I also respect people who say "beats
me" -- the agnostics. I'm more of an agnostic these days when it comes to
religion, and for a long time I've realized that politics is completely non-
rational.

That's not to say you can't use logic and reason in the discussion: I think
they provide tools to meet in the middle and share equally. But logic in these
discussions has a completely different purpose than it does in say, a
geometric proof. It's a flashlight in a dark, constantly changing room. It's
not the light switch. Most people miss that point.

I enjoy seeing people talk about religion and politics (as long as it's civil)
because it gives me an idea of how they think. It's neat to watch people
struggle with really tough questions. Who knows? There might be something I
could learn there. But I can see where it can destroy a forum.

------
froo
Hey pg, here is at least one situation that entirely backs up your theory.

I'm not a Freemason, but one of the rules of Freemasonry is that politics and
religion are NOT to be discussed while within the lodge.

This is done in part so that no mason will have to justify their personal
interpretation of either (and thus their identity) to any other mason while in
the lodge.

Perhaps they were onto something (apart from getting drunk and playing ping
pong)

~~~
menloparkbum
The notion that it is impolite to discuss politics and religion is a staple
bit of folk wisdom dispensed by parents, grandparents, various other elders,
and barkeeps the world over.

~~~
froo
_The notion that it is impolite to discuss politics and religion is a staple
bit of folk wisdom dispensed by parents, grandparents, various other elders,
and barkeeps the world over._

...but it's not a universal piece of folk wisdom. In fact it's the significant
minority

When you consider 68% of the world of the world is composed under the belief
structures of the 3 primary religions (christianity, islam, hinduism) and
religion is primarily passed from the parent to the child, I find that parents
(and so by inference, grandparents) suggesting that it is impolite to discuss
religion a hard pill to swallow.

When you take almost all other religions into account, Non Religious people
account for around 21% of the world's population, with some of those are
agnostic people (like myself).

~~~
menloparkbum
My grandfather gave me that advice, and he's a member of the clergy. There are
varying levels of social sophistication amongst religious people. In general
those born into some sort of longstanding cultural religion tend to not bring
it up in polite conversation. It's the newly converted noobs, or perhaps a
crazy aunt, who ruin the dinner party.

~~~
froo
Your crazy aunts don't necessarily need to be religious to ruin dinner
parties.

Many of my family Christmas' have been ruined by drunken dancing old women :)

------
tobib
I disagree that the more labels someone has the dumber they make you. And I
strongly disagree in that. I know people that believe in almost nothing. Not
in a religion, not a programming language. Sure there won't ever be a
religious argument. But also probably no discussion at all because there is
nothing to talk about with them. I have a lot of believes and disbelieves but
I still consider myself able to talk about those things without ending in a
fight.

~~~
yters
Yes, and pg also doesn't observe that a person's identity tends to be strongly
tied to things that provide for their welfare. For the common person, religion
and politics do this. For the elite, not so much. But, say if they are
programmers, they can have a strong identity tie to their editor (vi vs emacs)
or language, since they depend on these things to prosper in life.

This is not merely an unthinking thing on their part. Considering other points
of view and trying new things can take up a person's time. Claiming that the
basis of their welfare is incorrect implies it is taking away from their
welfare and they should try something else. If a person reacts "irrationally"
on such an issue this may be because they do not judge their resources
sufficient to change course. I think "irrationality" should be addressed on
these grounds instead of merely labelling a person's opinion as
irrational/bad, along with the social estrangement this entails.

~~~
GHFigs
The problem is not the belief, but that strongly identifying with something
can render you blind to (among other things) whether it really is providing
for your welfare or not.

(Historical examples abound, but pg's example of someone who _died_ over an
argument about two brands of pickup truck is apt. What benefits might be
experienced by the belief are outweighed by the evident risks involved in
identifying with it so closely.)

This is how persuasion works--appeal to a person's identity and you can
convince the mind of almost anything. If your interest lies in thinking as
freely as possible, then "keeping your identity small" is a good strategy.

 _If a person reacts "irrationally" on such an issue this may be because they
do not judge their resources sufficient to change course._

Example? I wasn't aware that changing one's mind required any resources.

~~~
billswift
I think he is confusing beliefs with identity. I think identity requires both
the internaliztion of a belief and an emotional commitment to its truth. It is
easier to establish the commitment for shared, socially approved beliefs that
are regularly being reinforced by others - the main reason religion is
accepted.

------
bokonist
The thing that politics and religion have in common, is that they have large
organizations that actively cultivate emotional responses and ideological
conformity.

Organized religions do this because that's how they attract and hold on to
followers.

Politicians and interest groups frame issues in emotional, moral, and
ideological terms, because emotion and social pressure motivates voters to get
off their butt and go to the polls. Rational self interest cannot motivate
voters, because the effort it takes to vote is greater than the direct reward.
The press sensationalizes politics and stokes fears of "the other" because
emotion sells. The polarization starts at the top and trickles down into every
internet comment thread.

Electoral/partisan democracy is poisonous. The Venetians had the right idea in
using lotteries to select officials.

------
xenophanes
I think Paul Graham is mistaken that large identities are the problem. I think
plenty of programmers have big egos too.

I propose the difference is the _traditions_ about how to argue politics and
religion, which don't apply as much to arguing javascript. Even people with
low egos can have fruitless discussions about politics, because they are so
accustomed to making certain kinds of statements which replay the same scene
the other guy also knows how to have. Persuading anyone takes more lateral
thinking than that.

I do agree that strongly identifying with ideas is a bad thing. As Popper
said, we should let our ideas die in our place. We can change our minds! If
you identify as someone who cares about the truth and isn't attached to any
particular idea, that is best.

------
bokonist
The key to having a sane political discussion is to remember that the survival
of your tribe does not actually depend on the outcome of the discussion.
Discuss politics as an observer of a complex and fascinating system, not as a
participant trying to influence events. Despite what your grade school
teachers taught you, unless you're Paul Krugman or Samantha Powers your
political views do not matter.

People act hysterical in political debates because they feel threatened. But
the pseudo-anonymous commenter you are debating has an infinitesimally small
impact on policy. So stop feeling threatened. While the policy in question may
or may not be disastrous, getting angry in a comment thread is not going to
make a whit of difference.

------
psyklic
This confluence of religion and politics was especially prominent in the
recent gay marriage debate.

Really, the entire issue revolves around the word "marriage" having a dual
meaning in a religious sense and a (government) civil contract sense. When the
government "redefines" civil marriage (e.g. with the inclusion of interracial
couples), religious organizations can still retain their own definitions of
marriage.

If the government had originally had all couples register as "civil unions"
and optionally marry in churches, then surprisingly this debate may never have
occurred -- it is purely semantical.

~~~
yters
At the popular level, yes. But there are other concerns, like the practical
basis of marriage rights for procreation and that it is contrary to the
American experiment to mandate gay marriage for all states.

~~~
mmussman
1\. There is no practical basis of marriage rights for procreation. This is
proved by the prevelance of men and women who remain married without having
children, and the vast numbers of unmarried parents.

2\. I wish that you would define what you mean by "contrary to the American
experiment." No one is advocating gay marriage for all states. Many people are
demanding their own state government recognize civil marriage as distinct from
religious marriage, and that all citizens have equal rights to civil marriage.

~~~
yters
If 1 is true, then marriage should no longer have special status in our laws.
So, instead of trying to get the government to recognize gay marriage, the
special rights for marriage should be largely done away with, or made
dependent on actually having children.

For 2 I am wrong and uninformed then. If it is only a state by state issue and
it is supported by the majority of a state, then I don't see a problem.

------
daveambrose
Looking at pg's title, I thought this essay was going to be about keeping your
online identity small or centralized - which, would have been interesting
given today's decentralized social web identities.

------
silentbicycle
I think the problem isn't necessarily identity _itself_ so much as when people
react to criticism of things they identify with as if they were physical
attacks on territory. Something in the animal brain feels threatened, and at
that point the conversation turns into a confrontation.

------
conskeptical
Maybe there's an assumption here that identity has to be constant. If we erase
that assumption and accept our identities as a continuous transformation
throughout our lives... :

Perhaps keeping your identity flexible can be better at protecting against
useless discussion. And the key thing above any consideration of identity is
to focus on receive as well as transmit, and to remember to couple the two
with some sort of processing. The key point about identity isn't particularly
its size, but its flexibility.

A small, inflexible identity is simply a harder target to hit, but when you
hit it you'll still find useless discussions there. A large, flexible identity
is easy to hit, but when you hit it, you're very likely to find interesting
discussions. A small, flexible identity is hard to interest, discussions will
fizzle uninterestingly long before the religious war, unless you happen to hit
the right topic in which case you'll find a good discussion. A large,
inflexible identity is easy to hit and the main cause of pointless
discussions.

The best discussions are where flexible identities meet, regardless of their
size. A useless discussion is one where the participants come away unchanged.
A good discussion is one where the participants come away changed (ie, with
something that they didn't have before). You need to be flexible for that.

Of course, there is such a thing as being too flexible...

------
mattchew
The dumb behavior is not just from identity, but from _identity as part of a
social group_.

People identify strongly with plenty of things without getting stupid over
them. Being a good bargain hunter, or a collector of ceramic frogs, or having
skin cancer might be an important part of your identity. But for the most
part, these are not identities that provoke people to shout slogans at rallies
or spend hours typing insults to other usernames on a discussion board.

But when you are identifying with a group, then "you" becomes "us", and the
social interaction becomes "us vs. them". It is human nature to enjoy these
kind of conflicts, to demonstrate that you're a loyal member of "us", and that
you are ready to do battle with "them".

Unfortunately, when this plays out in a discussion group, it results in rude,
repetitive, and boring conversations.

Also, I do not think it is workable to say "don't identify yourself with
social groups because it will make you stupid". That is much like saying
"don't let yourself feel sexual attraction because it will make you stupid".
While true, it's only telling part of the story, and in any case impractical
for most people. Better to be aware of your natural inclination for group
bonding, and try to manage it and be aware of when it is managing you.

------
dhimes
Such is the wisdom of Zen and some other Buddhist philosophical flavors.

~~~
jacoblyles
It is interesting that you have marked a philosophy that moves people to lead
lives of monastic asceticism as a philosophy that encourages a small identity.

~~~
dhimes
I wouldn't read too much into that. Many philosophies so move some people. I
marked a philosophy which rejects the reality of a "self" that is separable
from the rest of the universe.

------
wheels
I think the flipside of this is people liking to belong to groups. Most of the
time belonging to any group with a properties that are essentially homogenous
across the members involves some suspension of disbelief. Once people have
made that leap and accepted whatever core values those are, they in turn
define themselves in those terms, ignoring the fact that they weren't
rationally vetted or arrived at through independent thought on the way in.
Then if you've got some logisticians among the group, they'll go to great
lengths to systematically rationalize the things that they mostly accepted
because they're a part of that group. (I certainly do.) This goes from
anything from political activism to religion to free software.

This of course isn't necessarily bad or wrong -- in fact I think society would
scarcely function were for it not for a modicum of such behavior -- but it
does mean that people aren't having these debates in the way that they would
another debate -- because they've already _know_ the answer, they're just
trying to convince others that their opinion isn't stupid and wrong.

------
pjw
For those who don't think it's possible to argue about such technical subjects
(with a threshold for expertise) as JavaScript, take a look at any recent
conversation involving mathematics and the infamous JSH on the sci.math USENET
group. (I'm not posting a link, but just Google "sci.math".)

JSH is an amateur pseudo-mathematician who believes (falsely) that he has
solved numerous difficult problems in mathematics...he has his own proof of
Fermat's Last Theorem, he has (most recently) proposed a (wrong) solution to
the integer factorization problem, he has attempted to solve the Traveling
Salesman problem, etc.

My point is not that JSH is not very good at math, but rather that there are
people who hate this guy more than Hitler. People waste hours bashing him,
trying to diagnose psychiatric conditions that they believe he has (the
consensus seems to be "narcissistic personality disorder"), and generally
tearing this guy to shreds. Over math.

Here's a brief excerpt from a recent conversation about JSH's factoring
algorithm:

"Do you realize you are full of s---? You have nothing! You can't demonstrate
remarkable claims on a worthwhile problem. That is [sic] classi[c] snake oil
salesman, charlatan and cheat. It speaks of your narcissism! Get your head out
of your a--! You have zero!"

Anyway, does anyone really think that mathematics is a part of these people's
identities? I found the essay thought-provoking as well...but anything can be
controversial. The people involved in this thread DO have expertise, and they
definitively know that JSH is wrong. This doesn't stop them from spending
hours hashing out their arguments. Why can't they just ignore him?

I think, quite honestly, that some people just find it fun/stimulating to
argue with and insult each other.

~~~
inanutshell
Just I have this thought that if the world is not what it is...and everyone
followed basic logic, then the world would have been a dull place to live in.
No colors, just everything in black and white based on some accepted
commonsense...it is the diversity that gives color to life. I hope your JSH is
enjoying this attention and bashing in that forum:-)

~~~
inanutshell
I forgot to add one important thing...the brain cells need something different
everytime to propagate and prosper (whatever that means), and the best inputs
to brain are not the same recurring patterns but totally new and diversified
patterns.

------
natch
Great post. It strikes me that even when we try to avoid labels for ourselves,
sometimes they are imposed by others. And sometimes a further step happens
beyond the labels: consequences are imposed, depending on the labels.

This kind of imposition from the outside can sometimes leak into ones self-
identity. Hyphenated Americans, for example, often start out as thinking of
themselves as just Americans, but then discover that their experience is
different, and they have a shared peer group of other people who have had the
same experiences, because of what is imposed on them by others. And then, we
blame them for calling themselves <foo>-American, when actually it was not
necessarily their own doing.

Given such, it's also not hard to see why some people will decide that they
would prefer to wear a label (atheist/theist/gay/Asian/Bush
Supporter/whatever) as a badge of pride. Not saying this is or is not an ideal
state of affairs, just that it's understandable.

------
harshavr
Identity as a person is much more widely present than identity in terms of
religion, programming language, economic stance, nationalism or culture,
Imagine someone makes a critical statement about your personal character, The
way we respond to it is obviously different from a generic statement. Whether
or not, one tries to look at the statement as it is, there is usually also a
powerful psychological response which is triggered and this will too often
also be the basis for action. As one forms various identities, conversations
about these new topics will lead to the same response.

The interesting question is how is this 'minimizing of identity' to be done?
One idea i've heard is the following, Usually this psychological response
happens in the background, the unconscious so to speak, Instead one can be try
to be aware of it, not just abstractly but live. Watching a reflexive response
and its influence on action at the same time as it happens.

------
parenthesis
I think this is a good argument for minimising one's identity.

But there can be good reasons in particular cases for taking on some identity.
For example, oppression is often begun to be fought by the oppressed joining
together under a shared identity.

In general, people typically take on an identity — or keep one that they find
themselves with (upbringing) — to feel that they belong in some group of
people. But I don't think that sticking some big label on oneself is necessary
for belonging. One can belong in the group of one's friends and family just by
being one anothers' nearest and dearest, not through being fellow _x_ -ists or
_y_ -arians. And being partial to one's nearest and dearest as such isn't in
itself harmful, only mutually beneficial to those involved, and beneficial to
others since a group of mutually supportive individuals reduces the demands
those individuals might make against those outwith that group.

------
wrinklz
Spoken like a true, "objective", small-identity scientist. The problem with
that view is that we all do have an identity, and attempting to deny,
suppress, or "put aside" our identity is fairly impossible. A better path
IMHO, is to realize a larger identity. Broadening of the identity is the
natural progression from infancy to adult. Quote from Einstein: "A human being
is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and
space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something
separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.
This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal
desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to
free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to
embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

------
learntm
1.Identity is the boundary that separates 'I' from 'non-I'. 2.In order for us
to become universal, this boundary must vanish. 3.It is the 'I' that is the
doer of anything we do,so this 'I' needs to be expanded rather than
contracted. 4.When the the 'I' expands, ultimately it can include everything
within it's fold and the boundary can be pushed off to infinity, for all
practical purposes making it vanish 5.The way to do it is by experiencing our
essential 'self' or consciousness, the sub -stratum of all our thoughts
through a natural meditation technique like TM. 6.With practice, we can learn
to live the boundless even while acting within the boundaries. 7.This will
allow any amount of differentiation at the level of thought and action while
keeping all differences integrated and mutually supportive.

------
dantheman
I think politics and religion are very different than most other disagreements
because they extend beyond that one person. When a person believes in fascisim
or racism, they begin advocating policies to force their believes on others.
Religion gets tossed in there because a long time ago morality got tied to
religion.

So in my opinion, people get into "religious wars" because the beliefs of
other affect them.

Hell, when people get all worked up about a language there are benefits to
convincing people to use their language -- better tool support, better
libraries etc; and if they are on the losing side of a language they will have
to learn another one.

In the end these types of debates are all about control, either direct or
indirect. Direct -- Force, rule of law, etc ... Indirect -- public opinion,
social mores, # of followers.

------
brandnewlow
Having a "small identity" has cost me a bit as a writer. I once interned at a
magazine that was looking for contributors to their politics blog, covering
this presidential election. I don't have a political science degree. I never
worked in government or on a campaign. So I didn't think it'd make sense for
me to start opining on the horserace in the way they were looking for. Other
interns were more than happy to leap into the fray despite being in the same
boat more or less.

So while I'd rather hang out with people who don't argue about things they
know nothing about. I think the market favors the bold, and that includes
people leaping into debates about things they know nothing about.

------
trominos
I've found that the best way to do this is to make "values the truth above
everything else" be the core of your identity.

Then you can let yourself peripherally identify with other things, and, when
they're challenged, your core will step in and let you deal with the challenge
rationally.

But doing that is even harder than it might sound. I've been explicitly
working on it for a couple years now, and although I've made progress -- I
think I care about getting the truth more than I care about avoiding
embarrassment now, for example -- I'd still probably religiously defend myself
or my loved ones if either were verbally attacked rather than try to figure
out what truth the accusation contained.

~~~
gaika
Being honest to yourself is much harder than it seems. Have you read Ghandi's
"Experiments with Truth"
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_My_Experiments_wit...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_My_Experiments_with_Truth)
?

------
lgriffith
To be means to be something - ie have and identity. Your identity depends upon
what you are and what you make of yourself. If you seek your identity from
others, then conflicting discussions of religion and politics can be seen as
an assault on your identity.

If you are self defined, you prefer that others see you as you are. However,
if they don't, its their loss not yours. You are still what you are.

If you are other defined, you have no identity of your own. You have taken it
piecemeal from those around you. Your identity has been diminished to a
singularity that can be attacked by a single conflicting opinion. What you are
becomes deeply threatened.

------
SapphireSun
This is an interesting concept, and it makes a lot of sense to me.

A lot of people ask me of what ancestry I am and usually I tell them "I
dunno.". The usually are incredibly surprised by this answer and I usually
reply with something like, "I don't care whom came before me, because it has
no effect on me now, and it can only bias my thinking."

The exceptions to this idea, for instance it is very useful to know whom begat
you for genetic counseling, but on the whole, this policy makes it so that the
only labels that affect my life are the obvious ones - unless I make an effort
to introduce new ones.

------
skriv
I don't see how scientific identity falls outside identity politics. Humans
have a tribalistic genetic heritage, and so we behave this way.

I would say that the better you understand your identity, the better
positioned you are to escape a slavish defense of it.

But you also have to be careful not to avoid conversations just because they
are difficult. Religion and politics are in one sense two sides of the same
coin. It might be better to contrast religion and democracy.

Just because the answers aren't easy to access doesn't mean the struggle to
find them isn't worth having. ...no matter how messy.

------
cunard3
I think that for myself identity got formed by a progression of feeling-states
informed by listening, writing, and learning. I can't feel proactively. I feel
re actively and am formed. I think these feelings are like polarized or
fissile material. The big polarized feelings get shaped by reading and
listening.(by great books, for instance) Without identity, would a person have
any motivation to act, is my question. I've tried hard not to be co-opted by
isms or identity politics, but to participate, to have passion, you rely on
the polarized core. Or at least, I do. In starting a business, or doing
something for myself that takes passionate intensity I have always had to take
a leap of faith. The faith is in myself and in the direction my inner
polarized identity seems to be taking me. This is akin to what startup
advocates mean when they say:"I couldn't have worked that hard for that long
if it was only about the money." I agree with keeping a close eye on what you
allow into your identity. keeping it small is a Tauist ideal that I find
doesn't gibe with real life sometimes. Ego and pride can be really useful.
Ghandi had an ego, as did MLK. It's a high ideal to be and to remain an
uncarved block. A very high standard. Confucianism has sort of displaced the
Tau in general society. I think because rules make it possible for people with
all kinds of identities to make agreements and find ways of going forward.

Any takers for the idea of identity being required for motivation?

------
mete
I totally agree with the essence of the argument but I don't think "identity"
is the right word here. I think tribalism is what the author was getting at.
Tribalism separates people into "us vs. them" kind of groupings and the more
tribal minded someone is, the dumber he/she gets, as the author suggested.
Religion and politics are only 2 forms of tribalism but there are others like
sports, or nationality. Someone's identity definitely contains all these but
as someone else pointed, there are non-tribal aspects of identity as well.

------
nsrivast
Rather than letting as few things into one's identity as possible (which might
prohibit growth), why not actively absorb the opposite viewpoints? Keep your
identity balanced, not necessarily small.

~~~
silentbicycle
Doing so intentionally and temporarily can be a good way to expose viewpoints
you may not realize you've internalized. (Meditation helps, too.)

Also, think about what stuff in your mental surroundings (things you read
regularly, etc.) tend to reinforce certain beliefs you already have.

------
seinberg
I agree with almost everything Paul says, but will add one caveat: ego-driven
people--I'm careful not to include everyone in that category, but do tend to
think most people are at least partially ego-driven--tend to be driven by
their attachment and identification with/as something.

For instance, say someone takes a jab at some aspect of another person's
identity like their ability to comprehend a complicated philosophical concept
or programming construct (or something). At this point the second person may
feverishly try to defend herself, reading all about this construct and related
constructs. Even if she reads to defend herself, and in the process gets a
somewhat skewed view of what is more or less objectively decidable, is it the
case that she's dumber than before for having read all that? Another option is
to have not been involved in the argument and perhaps as a result less prone
to bias on the issue, but also less likely to have just done all that reading
to clarify and defend herself.

This isn't necessary in contradiction with what Paul wrote, but it does add a
little nuance to what was stated pretty bluntly: that the bigger your identity
becomes, the dumber you become.

As an aside, I see a tiny bit of irony that the spirit of what Paul is saying
is similar to that of Buddhism, which says that attachment and identification
results in suffering (not just stupidity). Buddhism rules! Your religion
sucks!

Edit: okay, so after going through a few more posts, my Buddhism crack isn't
so original or funny. Doh!

------
kansasfiddler
I'm not sure that 'identity' can carry all the weight for why 'non-academic'
discussions devolve into arguments. Unless you mean identity with the group
and not some nefarious identity that is contained within the individual's
psyche.

I'm thinking that people sometimes enjoy being right about something. They
enjoy having an opinion that has merit and that can benefit others. Sometimes
expressing an opinion can be just to 'one-up' the guy who is castigating some
poor bloke in a forum who failed to articulate his position well and who is
now being bullied. Sometimes the expression of an opinion can be meant to come
to the defense of another. Perhaps it is those unspoken elements of human
communication, the binding and unbinding of groups, that are being
transgressed, or which we mistakenly believe so, and not our sense of
identity, which gradually raises one's ire when their opinion is being
criticized, tested or what have you.

One of the reasons we communicate our positions is to ally ourselves with
others. We find common ground and can then feel apart of. People get upset
when they risk losing this common ground. When the matter is not so crucial,
such as the preference for an x or y programming language, their chances of
losing affinity with the group is less and so they tend to be more easy going
about the expression and consideration of their /preferences. That's my 2
cents :)

------
nazgulnarsil
ideology seems to be a case of the ego boundary being mistakenly extended to
include social constructs.

------
ja2ke
But really, CSS is better for layout.

... ;)

------
llimllib
> all other things being equal, the best plan is to let as few things into
> your identity as possible.

pg at his best; a truth I've known without ever Knowing, expressed clearly and
concisely.

> There may be some things it's a net win to include in your identity. For
> example, being a scientist. But arguably that is more of a placeholder than
> an actual label—like putting NMI on a form that asks for your middle
> initial—because it doesn't commit you to believing anything in particular.

This part, though, is totally and completely false. I contend that it only
seems this way to pg because the scientific spirit is so deeply integrated
into himself that he can no longer see it.

And this points to a deeper part of the message, for me; _everyone_ has these
perspectives, they're a part of the way you choose the world. Strive to
minimize them, but accept the ones you have, don't pretend that they don't
exist, and certainly don't try to justify them by saying that they exist as
reality.

Alternatively, become a buddhist and spend your entire life with the goal of
emptying yourself of these lenses to see humanity as essentially
undifferentiated from everything.

------
peterhindrup
Not sure about the identity bit, been very sure of who I am since I was a
small boy and so not interested in what others presume. I don’t get caught up
in arguing anything that is based only on belief or opinion. Believe whatever
you like.

In your definition of ‘scientist’ do you include medical doctors?

During a period of seriously ill health I saw a clutter of ‘ highly respected
specialists ‘ — by some! In the course of which I was told with varying
degrees of anger and arrogance that: acupuncture; chiropractic treatment and
hypnosis did not work, could not work and that those who believed in them were
either idiots or delusional.

Interestingly the attempts, by those who bothered, to explain results obtained
were so far off the planet that tooth fairies, father christmas and honest
politicians were decidedly ordinary every day events.

Then there is a book, forbidden science where people like the Wright Brothers,
Thomas Edison and a host of others were written off as either delusional or
charlatans, perhaps both, or worse by the scientists of their day.

(Everybody knew that heavier than air machines could not fly! )

------
euroclydon
Meta-Politics(Religion) is another way to talk about it, like PG's essay did.

------
amutap
To assume an identity is a natural trait of every human. It has harmed us the
most by far. I feel glad such an abstract topic is put in words by Paul.
Thanks Paul.

I agree with Paul when he says we need to keep our identity small. Assuming an
identity weather it be religious, national or any other, blocks our rational
side from seeing things clearly. An identity levies upon the carries a sense
of entitlement; it clots our mind with prejudice.

It is high time we stop doing this. And by keeping our identity small we lift
the entitlement burden from our head. We no longer need to belong to a
particular group, justify certain legacy thoughts that were forced upon us.

Many of the problems we face today are because of carrying identities which we
assume by chance! The country where I belong, the language which I speak, the
religion which I follow - every thing was enforced upon me by chance. Why
should there be a resentment when one tries to shrug an identity.

It will only make our minds clear and we will be left with less burden to
carry,

------
fabio
A similar point of view is expressed by czech novelist Milan Kundera in his
"Immortality" (<http://www.librarything.com/work/2601/41486088>), analysing
the way people build their outwards identity by means of adding - or
subtracting - attributes such as the ones you point out.

------
indiejade
Maybe it's not so much religion or politics as it is a matter of open-
mindedness vs. close-mindedness. There are extremists on both ends of the
spectra on politics and religion. I think a lot of the disputes between humans
could be resolved if people were more willing to stop and listen, learn, read,
discover, empathize with the plights of others.

------
kevintwohy
I quite liked how you finished up -- very well put.

I would say, though, that on the subject of religion-as-identity, we only
permit this kind of accountability-dodging when it involves a monotheism. When
someone tries to defend a shoddy point by saying 'it's so because I know it,'
we call them a fool. We only allow this defense in the name of 'faith.'

------
alagesan
I think basically there are only two things: Facts and Illusions. Non-living
entities can never have illusions and they are governed by just plain
facts.And so these non-living entities can be objective and perform
efficiently. For living entities, facts are still important, but illusions are
what gives meaning to life.Identity is one such illusion. An historical
example is the biblical theory that earth is the center of the universe. It
was a comfortable idea because it gave importance to human beings as the
center of creation.So what I realized after reading the essay is that one
should know about differences between illusions and facts and do not get
carried away by illusions to cause conflicts. Illusions are pleasant, just
like good graphics in a video game (although with poor graphics also one can
implement the same game logic).

------
PeterWhittaker
In the early '90s there was a trend to something called "ego-less
programming". The idea was to leave your ego at the door when coding, and
definitely when doing a code review, thereby removing personality - and
personality insult or injury - from questions of code quality. As a then-
techie who'd attended a review or two, this struck me as a very good idea.

What you describe as "identity" may be better described as "ego". For most of
us, the ego so dominates that the two are indistinguishable: Ego is who we
are, ego promotes and defends our identity.

Now, without going all new age on you, think of a moment when your ego has
been totallly in control (any episode of rage, be it road or code, is likely a
good choice). Now think of how, on your better days, you don't consider that
person to be you. Of course it wasn't, it was your ego taking control.

Keeping your identity small is one approach, but perhaps a more fulfilling one
is to manage your ego. Recognize it as but one of your tools for personal
expression and defense and bring it out only when necessary.

Many of us "identify" with a great many things and this makes life rich.
Keeping your identity small may be impoverishing.

Consider discussions on religion or politics you've had with people who seem
particularly wise or calm. They are probably among the best and most
insightful discussions you've had. And I will bet that the wise person has
strongly held beliefs, beliefs that are strongly part of their identity. But
they manage their ego: They can consider all sides, and even update their
position, because they have separated ego - and externally manifested
phenomenom - from identity, an internal state.

(I experienced the ego-less programming trend at Bell-Northern Research, aka
BNR, then the research arm of Northern Telecom, now Nortel. I don't know
whether it was BNR-specific, Telecom-generic or industry wide. Interestingly,
only techies and techie management really seemed to get it. Folks in soft
disciplines thought having ego bound with code was necessary to take pride in
one's work.)

------
robg
_The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you._

Great quote.

Agreed on the essay. But the question I'm left with: Can you debate religion
and politics if you have some refined knowledge on the topics? For instance, I
took a bunch of religion and political science courses. The former seems much
more tractable to me not because I have a religious identity, but because when
I look across the scope of religious identities, I see some common, and wide,
themes of humanity. In politics I only see the accumulation of power (no doubt
a human trait, but one that doesn't do much good all by itself). Of course,
organized religious involves politics too, but I'm much more interested in
what it means to be religious (or not) in every day lives. There it's less
about a particular religious identity than an identification with the
religious.

------
ChetanC
Paul, brilliant essay. You've eloquently put forward a solid argument about
why Foxes are better than Hedgehogs (see:
[http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/12/05/051205crbo_books...](http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/12/05/051205crbo_books1)).
People's predictive ability (and judgment) seem to diminish proportional to
the strength of their belief in some ideology.

Avoiding identifying too much with any worldview seems to be the best path to
wisdom. A good resource is Berkeley academic Philip Tetlock's work in this
field
([http://fora.tv/2007/01/26/Why_Foxes_Are_Better_Forecasters_T...](http://fora.tv/2007/01/26/Why_Foxes_Are_Better_Forecasters_Than_Hedgehogs#chapter_01)).

Chetan Chawla (chetanchawla@gmail.com)

------
socialarchetype
not all identities are chosen by the individual for the self in the way that
this essay assumes. some identities are forced upon specific individuals or
groups. is it reasonable to ask those whose identities have been selected for
them through accidents of history/birth to keep their identities small? it is
ultimately reflexive of reality to ignore these identities? in a democratic
society that is struggling to maintain meaningful civic engagement in many
sectors, do we really want to reduce conflict over charged political and
religious issues? why not have it out verbally over and over? paul graham
might be beyond such conversations about politics and religion, but maybe
others need to have them. \- mark h.

~~~
socialarchetype
also, there are a number of disciplines and interdisciplines devoted to
identity studies (identity politics, african american studies, women studies,
queer studies, whiteness, etc.). whether you come from a background to have
read them or whether or not you have been conditioned to respect them, they
have spent a lot of time thinking about these issues (30-40ish years as a
recognized part of academy) and have a lot of smart things to say if this
question truly interests you.

------
puppy
I disagree. I'm a scientist; science is part of my identity. Therefore I can't
have fruitful discussions about science? About the value of science? I don't
think that's correct.

In fact, Paul Graham's set-up is flawed. If the amount of money a policy will
cost has a definite answer then there won't be long discussion of how much a
policy will cost. Instead the long discussion will be whether it's worth the
cost. But if the everyone basically agrees that the policy of clear-cutting
the Amazonian rain forest and burning all the wood is not only not worth the
cost but a bad idea, then it won't spur long discussions either.

The flaw is rather basic. Paul Graham is conflating politics with specific
issues in the political domain. Tsk tsk!

------
cglee
This is one of my favorite PG essays because it's applicable to anyone. I
think the opposite is also valid though - an identity that encompasses all. If
you think about it, it gives you the same power of objectivity as not letting
anything in.

------
gojomo
Perhaps some day, the English language will have just one word for politics
and religion.

~~~
pg
Well, there is one word for something that comprises much of both: ideology.

~~~
mmmurf
How would you define ideology? As a person's current set of beliefs? Or as a
set of vehemently held beliefs?

Argument is the process of applying logic to a set of ideas. It is based on
the premise that logic alone can yield insights and both participants try to
use logic to point out fallacies in their opponent's arugment.

If you believe that ideology is someone's current set of beliefs, then
ideology is not threatening, as you have a good shot of changing someone's
ideology through logic and argumentation.

However, if you believe that ideology is a dogma that someone viciously clings
to, then there is no reason to bother arguing, as it could never result in the
person conceding a point or changing an opinion.

I the former definition applies to most intelligent people.

In my case, all of my beliefs are provisional. I don't know anything for
certain, but I may still engage in argument. I won't necessarily preface the
argument with an in-depth acknowledgement of all of the holes I see in the
beliefs at hand. Instead, I will see how well they stand up to my opponent's
assaults. After all, I've already admitted to myself that they have holes, so
now before I abandon them I should give them one last stand to see how they
do.

A successful argument is one in which a) I discover more holes, or b) I
realize that something I thought was a hole isn't.

Logical argument is quite unlike javascript where there are obvious ways of
empirically testing a result. In the more abstract areas of programming there
are massive arguments (see LKML, etc.) because it is hard to simply
empirically test the result... the concepts are abstract and interwoven, etc.

To read the arguments on LKML, one sees that they are more socratic, more
focused on the abstractions and hence are more subject to "ideology" being
used rather than simple assertions.

So if you dismimss "ideology" as necessarily uninformed, you are asserting
your own "ideology" onto the discussion.

What is a non-ideological argument? Is it something like this?

Person 1: I can't be sure, but I think there is a chance that A

Person 2: I see. I agree that there is a chance that A, but I think there is a
greater chance that B.

Person 1: We both make good points.

Person 2: Indeed.

While the above may be an abundantly mature way to address A and B, I find a
spirited argument far more informative. For the same reason, I find that it's
easier to learn about the nuances of a political issue by reading op-eds
written from various perspectives than from reading one supposedly objective
"news" article.

------
emmett
The question this raises for me is, what habits of mind are important to keep
your downsize your identity? One idea is suggested in the essay: if you find
yourself thinking, I'm an X, but tolerant of Y, that's a warning sign. Any
others?

------
massung
Paul, this was another good essay.

However, I have to fundamentally disagree with the idea that identity makes
one "stupid." When I was a teenager, I had very little in the way of identity,
but I was very stupid. :-)

There are many parts of a person's identity. Some are chosen, while others are
factual. I can't change who my parents are, what my race is, or where I was
born. But they do make up who I am and who you are. We cannot ignore them, and
trying to do so causes other problems later in life.

Chosen aspects of one's identity are neither bad nor "stupid." Rather, the
reasons people incorporate and cling to certain identities may be, and are the
root of the problems you describe.

Example: Atheism vs. Religion.

Electing to identifying with one's self with either of these groups does not
[inherently] make one smarter, dumber, stronger, or weaker. What's important
is _why_ one chooses to identify with that group.

Does one choose religion to fill a hole in their life or perhaps a fear of
death?

If so, then having that identity (hopefully) adds value to, and makes them
happier; that's fantastic! But that reason also means when another - opposing
identity - challenges their religion, they are threatening that happiness.
Defense ensues.

Does one choose atheism in order to feel smarter or to be different/non-
conformist?

If so, then when someone with a religious identity tries to talk with them
about it, their intellect or uniqueness is suddenly threatened. Defense
ensues.

Yet there are many people who have identified themselves as religious, and
others as atheist, who are perfectly capable of having very pleasant
conversations about life, the universe, and everything, together, for many
hours. Why is that? Because their identity wasn't chosen to fill a void, to
provide direction, or convince them of something. Instead, it was because that
is what made the most sense to them. They are still excited to learn more, and
are capable of stating "I don't know [everything]."

Identity is a very _good_ thing. Just be sure you choose your identity for the
right reasons.

Jeff M.

------
forsaken
This is the same idea that is expressed in the concept of bike shedding on
software projects. It comes up when naming things and other simple tasks.

When everyone thinks that they can have an opinion, then discussion
degenerates into simple "mine is better than yours", same with politics and
religion. Same with Vi and Emacs. Same with get_items() or retrieve_notes().

Look on some mailing lists for conversations over naming things for some good
examples.

[http://groups.google.com/group/django-
developers/browse_thre...](http://groups.google.com/group/django-
developers/browse_thread/thread/8bad63d6286580ed/a2f48ffadccf146a)

------
frisco
The essay reminded me of the blog "Overcoming Bias," the whole point of which
I believe is that by removing these minor biases that we pick up as part of
ourselves we can become more rational, smarter people.

------
irldexter
Zen, ego, statecraft, belief systems and barriers of entry.

Perhaps read 'The Relation of Science and Religion', Richard P. Feynman.

I have chewed this cud before: <http://tr.im/f95s>

------
Tachyon
I'm not sure a biblical literalist would necessarily reject natural selection
-- the fact that species change over time to adapt to their environments can
be proven through direct observational evidence, not just inference based on
fossil records.

She might object to the thought that unguided processes such as natural
selection produced all life on Earth, however, and may even correctly infer a
certain amount of philosophical bias / involvement of some people's identities
in their arguments for such a thought.

------
mmussman
You stole the idea right out from under me. I've been writing a book on this
for a year now.

All very good points you make here. The biggest challange for most people will
be refusing to identify themselves with the nation-state in which they live.
People who don't share their fellow citizens' patriotism and national identity
risk alienation and shunning. Plus, there is the issue of what we 'owe' our
country, in return for all the many benefits we enjoy by living here. Some say
we owe our loyalty.

------
brm
The fact that you think well enough to correctly judge your level of expertise
and whether you should jump into the conversation puts you a step ahead of the
majority of the population in the first place.

For most, expertise or knowledge is relative to the expertise of the people
they are speaking to. Sit in your average city coffee house and listen to the
bs getting tossed around... it will amaze you, and show you the importance of
associating with smart people.

------
cjfsyntropy
I think a highly effective alternative to restraint in identity is a deep and
comprehensive appreciation for all identities. That is, the interest,
willingness, and passion to accommodate all relevant identities. Karen
Armstrong calls this "compassion". I submit it would be healthier for
discussion to deeply and compassionately embrace otherness rather than to be
identity agnostics.

I concur that noncompassionate identity can poison a discussion.

------
RPatershuk
Only had time to skim the comments but here's mine anyways. Your essay has a
lot to do with a self perpective and the balance between objectivity and
subjectivity in a belief system. It kind of splits people into two groups
Objective and Subjective with a bias towards objective being "better" -
smallness of self tends toward objectivity.

Going further, the only two types of people in the world are those that split
people into two groups and those that don't

------
annoyumous
I agree with most of your analysis, except for your premise that if two
opposing views cannot be proven wrong, then all opinions are "valid" (I hope I
paraphrased that correctly). It is my view that in matters such as religion,
it is true it cannot be proven wrong; however, if no evidence exists for one
side, and much evidence is presented which points to another view, then the
latter view is more closer to a "valid" one than the former.

------
towny777
Paul, as usual,you make some excellent points here. Keep up the excellent
work!

Here's my two cents. Identity plays a pivotal role in humanity. How much is
too little? How much is too much? It's hard to pin-point. I think it has
changed throughout history, and, like a lot of things, its usefulness is
evolving more rapidly as time progresses. So, it's a balancing act, and it
constantly needs attention to do it right.

------
fogus
This seems to me to be an inversion of Nietzsche's Perspectivism:

"There is only a perspective seeing, only a perspective 'knowing'; the more
affects we allow to speak about a thing, the more eyes, various eyes we are
able to use or the same thing, the more complete will be our concept of the
thing, our 'objectivity'."

In other words, Nietzsche says in order to be more objective we should
maximize the things that we identify with.

------
ipsophage
Well, if identity is just a shortcut to forming exclusionary, co-operative
groups in the competition for scarce resources, then keeping one's identity
small (i.e. not identifying with many groups) is not necessarily good advice.
There's a lot of interesting literature on this spawned from studies of
supposedly ethnic conflict in areas such as Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia.

------
WilliamOfUrbana
For a substantiative account of how to proceed when these issues arise, see
the Harvard Negotiation Project's book "Difficult Conversations". Their thesis
in a nutshell is that difficult conversations are made up of three
simultaneous conversations: The Facts conversation, the Feelings conversation,
and the Identity conversation. They give advice based on that framework.

------
newyorkannie
I just found out that the founding father's intention of political system was
modeled after the science movement in the 18th Century. This article and the
video link below is enlightening. Thank you.

[http://www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/2009/01/a-video-
introduct...](http://www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/2009/01/a-video-introduction-
to-air.html?cid=148860655#comments)

------
pgrunwald
Interesting post Paul - you essay is exactly why today I decided to take
another run at Practical Common Lisp rather than starting a blog about the
Demopublicans and Republocrats (I can't tell who is who anymore...)bankrupting
America as I was considering. I made that decision before I saw your essay.

I just hope there is a need for Lisp programmers after the uprising or
apocalypse... ;-)

~~~
pgrunwald
p.s. [http://www.aegisub.net/2008/12/if-programming-languages-
were...](http://www.aegisub.net/2008/12/if-programming-languages-were-
religions.html)

------
patio11
I have a friend who, when asked his nationality, will always respond "citizen
of the world". He thinks that the answer has much to recommend it and that it
is not an identity. He is right in the first respect and very wrong in the
other.

Ditto with "Having considered the alternatives rationally, I reject the notion
of having an identity vis a vis [religion, politics, etc]".

~~~
gustaf
I think the problem your friend is doing it that he/she thinks people will
draw conclusions from his identity.

I'm Swedish. But it doesn't mean that I'll defend Sweden in a war against
Norway. I have very little more in common with the Swedes who lives on the
border to Norway then the Norwegians who live on the border to Sweden.
However, I'm Swedish - I grew up there and I have my cultural heritage from
there. That's not wrong - it's just fact

------
slowblogger
I agree. But there is another, perhaps even more important factor. That is
market vs. politics. In a market, every strong opinion has a chance to get
realized. In politics, only one opinion is chosen.

Hot debates do happen in market as well, but they are rarely a problem as all
opinions get realized as long as they prove demand that they can fulfill.

------
kowalke
I only skimmed the article (sorry), but I'm not so sure about Paul's thesis
that a barrier to entry is the problem.

As I see it, the problem starts with things that are unprovable and therefore
hard to debate--and unwillingness to accept that you might be wrong, since
these unprovables are often at the core of the person's belief in the world.

------
freeobject
Many identities give out higher level of comprehension. You could have more
identities and keep them as resources to use instead of as labels to show off.
But, that's rare, most people don't have that ablility to learn as much as
possible. So in common, sticking on fewer identities normally prevails.

------
linhares
One thing that makes me crazy is how americans tend to place labels in people
since their teens: that's a loser, two nerds, three jocks, four yuppies,
etcetcetc. Once people are stigmatized with those, it's hard to backtrack, and
my feeling is that they tend to go all the way with others' expectations of
them.

------
barrkel
> There are certainly some political questions that have definite answers,
> like how much a new government policy will cost.

Even this statement is not true. Government policies may have costs and
benefits; the true cost needs to take into account the net position, so a
myopic focus on costs is disingenuously partisan.

------
evdawg
I'm pretty sure we could argue about Javascript. Just mention Prototype and
the jQuery zealots are relentless! :P

------
dragos_stefan
A wonderful essay and truly a joy to read. This is very close to some stuff
that I read in Gurdjieff's writings some time ago, and it's the first time I
see the concept of "identification as a bad thing" outside of those writings.
Thanks for this insightful take on a very interesting subject for me.

~~~
busterdog
Doesn't not having an a lot of identities give you an identity of someone who
doesn't have a lot of identities? Are you not looking down on those who think
they have the Truth by saying I have the Truth and the Truth is that
identities don't matter? I find people in that group the most most smug and
intolerant of all. If I think that vi is better than emacs, and you say the
opposite we can discuss it. I can agree with you belief that there is a better
editor. If I say editors don't matter and they are all the same, I am saying I
have a higher truth. This attitude was debunked in PGs essay "Revenge of the
Nerds." PG has formally adopted the role of Pointy Haired Boss!

~~~
billswift
I have the Truth and the Truth is you don't matter (to me).

What matters is what works. What editor you use doesn't matter, use whatever
works best for you, but don't identify with it. What car you drive doesn't
matter, drive whatever you like, but don't identify with it. In very few
instances is one set of beliefs objectively better than another, so don't
identify with a belief that is not.

Religion versus atheism is such a case; faith (belief in the absence of
evidence) makes you stupid.

------
sgman
> "As a rule, any mention of religion on an online forum degenerates into a
> religious argument. Why? Why does this happen with religion and not with
> Javascript or baking or other topics people talk about on forums?"

I've also seen this happen on forums where people mention vi or emacs :)

------
acidcoal
In a slight out of context side;It is Dilemma;Your Expertise tend to Identify
You and tend to become your Identity.What Paul is saying to go beyond, and
still have expertise and not been identfied by them;In real world, i see it as
a challenge.

------
KevBurnsJr
Simplifying one's personal identity is a hard path to follow and a good way to
get to feeling lost. It takes a lot of faith to put one foot in front of the
other when the path before you spans wide, untrodden.

Eckhart Tolle sells a good mindset to carry this sort of work.

------
MaysonL
Paul - a good point about identity: much of the flameage in
political/religious discussions stems from people feeling threatened by
beliefs different from their own: taking these beliefs as personal attacks
(which they too often degenerate into).

------
Connochaetes
Actually, a mention of a programming language on an Internet forum also
degenerates into a religious argument. And, sadly, too many people feel they
don't need any particular expertise to argue Javascript, either.

------
rmason
Not your best effort. You seem to be arguing against having core beliefs. Yet
having read your essays I would find it extremely hard to believe that you
practice what you preach.

~~~
pg
I'm not sure what "core beliefs" means precisely. But if it means beliefs you
wouldn't discard even in the face of evidence to the contrary, it would seem
good to have as few of those as possible.

------
mrtron
"I finally realized today why politics and religion yield such uniquely
useless discussions."

In the context of HN or other topic specific forums your points are valid.
Check your guns at the door.

------
sundayrest
See also: Parkinson's Law of Triviality
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed>

------
frontierblog
I cannot agree more, actually I wrote a similar post weeks ago

Edward

Frontier Blog - No one ahead, no one behind <http://www.hwswworld.com/wp>

------
freeobject
Take languages for example, one speaks more than one languages could obviously
strike dumb the one sticks on his mother tongue in an international stage.

------
lordspy
Although I agree with you, the problem in keeping identity small is that you
become a low profile. In this such society this not always represents a good
thing.

------
lenBullard
So the Buddha was right. Ok. I suppose it bears repeating: attachments are the
root cause of suffering.

On the other hand, some do not crave a quiet life.

------
Silentio
To quote: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a
thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

------
jobeirne
PG, I think there might be a typo: "is strongly held beliefs" should be "are
strongly held beliefs:.

------
jnak
reminds me of what you said on anti-yellowism, best to not care on most things
people are fervent about, and what you said about historical imperfections in
maps. i agree wholeheartedly and suggest this as a good example of minimalism
at work.

------
johnbender
Except it does degenerate when you talk about Javascript/C#/VB/Java/Closure

------
known
Politics + Religions = Collection of Rational and Irrational Beliefs.

------
pogos
The less points you have to defend, the better off you'll be.

------
mighty
Ideologues seek confirmation. Pragmatists seek falsification.

------
Neoryder
on that bit about policy costs being definite, I have a simple objection.

hmm. policy costs are usually estimates and thus are are usually colored by
ideology.

imo

------
Ammo
It’s REALLY about beliefs: The more PERMANENT labels you have for yourself,
the dumber they make you.

I believe Paul cut all the way to the core and stopped one step short of the
finishing line.

Let’s ask the obvious question and think about it: So, what do you do next?

If you were to decide to keep your identity small, how would you go about it?

The key is NOT in identity size.

In fact, the essay is not about IDENTITY at all. (Paul commits some
equivocation in discussing identity, and let’s face it: it’s tough not to:)

The essay is about limiting beliefs that disserve progress.

The strategy is to remove unwanted parts of your identity so you can adopt
different "identities" at will.

The tactic is to remove limiting beliefs directed to unwanted goals (all
beliefs are goal-directed) and adopt different beliefs as an act of will.

The approach is to practice disassociation.

I’m glad you’re with me so far:) Keep on reading, it gets better.

So, one may ask, what is a Belief? A conviction of a "truth of a statement" or
"reality of a fact"

How about Conviction? =an assertion brought by argument to assent. You are
convinced of things to be real. You think "this is it"

So, where do these things, these little personality components come from?
Where do beliefs come from?

We seem to be born with fear of falling and fear of loud noises. All other
boundary conditions seem to be learned, and most learning happens before you
turn 6.

By the time you’re 6 most limiting beliefs are set.

You may see parents argue about time, money, space and believe "scarcity is
normal"

You may see person screaming the loudest winning and believe "anger gets
results"

You get my drift. This is where beliefs come from.

They are mental constructs. They are goal-directed, and therefore useful as
long as the goals are still desired.

Imagine the goal was to become smarter and have a fruitful conversation (or to
experience half-hour thunderous orgasms...hey, I'm just sayin:)

What if we were to imagine we can remove beliefs, change them, or add new ones
as an act of will?

What if beliefs are temporary, arbitrary ways of seeing the world? Merely a
temporary, arbitrary way of treating something as though it was true or a
fact.

What if beliefs were NOT a part of your identity? Better yet, what if you
needn’t to define identity at all to examine and manipulate beliefs?

I believe Paul means to encourage us experimenting with this Alternative,
Dissociated Belief.

Let’s call this ADbelief.

Let’s leave out judgments whether it is good/bad, familiar/unfamiliar me/not
me, and follow the path.

Now, if ADbelief is a temporary, arbitrary useful assertion, then what is
ADconviction? =one of these arbitrary assertions that is held at a level BELOW
conscious examination.

So, if we were to imagine having thunderously orgasmic AND fruitful
conversations, then it may involve Dropping Goal-directed Belief/Conviction
pairs and Adopting ADgoal-directed ADbelief/ADconviction pairs. (you can
imagine Goal-ADgoal distinction might be: something you simultaneously don’t
have and desire when you’re <6 v.s. Now).

If you were to do that, you may notice an effective approach would involve
dissociation: 1.Examine what Belief/Conviction pairs get you (each gets you
something), and whether you still need/deserve that

2.Harvest ADgoals, adopt matching ADbeliefs/ADconvictions

3.Skip countless ritualistic elements, go directly to the effect

Skipping rituals requires generating stimulus in a state where your brain
mistakes it as direct sensory input.

Generating such stimulus requires practicing dissociation: stepping back from
the reality that is happening by setting aside the sheer mass of sensory input
coming in, right now.

You may have experienced this when you travel alone to a place where most
things you know and believe to be true are false (for westerners, asia or
middle east would do).

Recall an experience where there is nothing else to relate to, except that
which you brought yourself. Virtually all the "identity" baggage you carry
with yourself is not there. Anything that you bring is there because YOU chose
to carry along.

Aren’t you smarter in that place?

Hmmmm...just a thought:) Cheers.

Ammo

P.S.1: I’m seeking co-founders or to join a start-up. I can perform or
otherwise get done all none-coding tasks with a flair: fund/find money,
distill PrematureDesignChoice-free stories from market, write pseudo code,
design attractive simple UI/UX, test, schmooze, influence, attract partners,
sell, close deals etc.

I PREFER consumer-facing technologies that extend upon an unexpected success
(Let’s generalize Netflix challenge) or unexpected failure with the
demographic wind in the sail (Yes, I’m talking baby boomers: never before the
50+age cohort dominated US discretional spending. Think about it: very soon $4
of $10 will be spent by a Boomer and it will last 10+ years).

You must be an honorable person(s) of great taste, with a deep respect for
reality and healthy amount of skepticism towards the impossible (I will show
you things that you thought were ABSOLUTELY impossible).

It would also help if you smell nice, enjoy good red wine and simple delicious
food.

P.S.2: If you read this far thinking "this makes sense" I feel we should
talk:)

P.S.3: Yes Paul, I'd LOVE to:)

------
twak
"hacker"

------
cturner
I've been very interested in this essay and the thread on defiance as a
survival mechanism.

I've reached an "all code is data moment" though on the 'ideology' thing. If
we dedicate ourselves to task then in order to do a good job of it we often
need to buy into it with identity. For cleaning the dishes we wouldn't, but
for designing something new we definitely do. There are controversial value
judgements all over the place, and you often have to build on decision
mechanisms that are a hell of a lot more vague than scientific conclusions
when you do it. Hence, you are invested an ideology, both in terms of approach
and belief.

Two things get you into real trouble. One is to stake a lot on something
tenuous. If you have a design pattern idea that is very tenous, and then
invest in building a system on top of it, you're probably in trouble. Been
there, and i got prickly at suggestions that my base was not all that solid.

The other problem is when you have a belief system that is getting driven from
somewhere else. Politics is the nasty one because you're forced to subscribe
and it's about the group. Though I personally believe that strict property law
is sacred, that most taxation is stealing and that public education is a poor
model, the only options on offer are those that accept that and so I have to
pick one. What's worse still is that politics is a zero sum game. When your
solution wins, my bad compromise loses. It hurts a lot more if you openly
share your faith that your chosen pick is a good one.

The political systems that are most notorious for hijacking casual
conversations are those that are based on the idea that there is a fixed
amount of wealth in society, because the stakes are a lot higher for people in
that perspective.

Politics can be made worse by some vote electoral decision systems. One bad
design is to base it on a winner takes all rule with no preferences. This can
be made worse still with a gerrymander electorate. But - at least that ensures
you get catch-all parties. Worse still is to give everyone a piece of the pie
like the Israeli or old Italian system. In those systems every lobby group has
its own political presence, there's less reason to govern for the all rather
than your group, and this sets the stage for coruption and a perpetually
unstable executive. Vague idea: a political system with a fixed 'kernel' but
an arbitrary number of representatives who would be self-funded by bits of the
community.

Religion is less of a problem than politics. You can have a conversation with
someone about the ancestry of your different religions and respect their
position openly _and inside_ even if you do spare a moment later to have a
private chuckle at the prospect of their eternity in the fiery pit. Hey - it's
their funeral. Some cultures try to turn religion into politics: old testament
stories that say that God punished a town because its people were bad, or that
certain land must be reclaimed for the one true faith, or network marketing
rules.

The problems are far less in the geek world and they decline as time goes on
and tools get better making the compromises less. I suspect that normal people
got more upset about mac-windows ten years ago than now, and that they get
more upset now than than hackers, because they're victims of the compromises
whereas experienced developers don't give a damn what platform they're on so
long as they can get a shell and a compiler.

Although... everyone needs libraries...

Something that would be useful: tips on forming a world view with minimal
reliance on external belief.

------
bianco
Identity is not the problem. And identity is always strong, and has to be
strong to be able to achieve great things.

We are all very vulnerable when it comes to things that are rooted deeply in
our own live (read: soul). So we behave quite aggressively when someone
touches these things -- especially when we have been hurt there (and who
hasn't been hurt in our violent times?).

If anybody is telling me that I should keep something small, and this thing is
positive by its nature (like identity), then I already know that it's wrong
from the beginning, and that the _real_ problem hasn't been discovered yet.

So, keep searching!

~~~
billswift
I think identity requires both the internalization of a belief and an
emotional commitment to its truth. Paul's argument is that you should not
incorporate unimportant beliefs into your identity. I suspect the "strength"
of a person's identity is either unrelated to its size in these terms, or
possibly even inversely related - that is, the more peripheral beliefs you
have incorporated into your identity the more diffuse and weaker it is.

~~~
perusio
What about the practicality of holding strong beliefs? Is it not thebest way
for you to achieve something to be imbued of the "true spirit" of that thing.
Even if it is "wrong".

Nietzsche talked about a pessimism of strengh related with the Will to Power
where he says that holding something true is important to achieve a certain
purpose. He distinguished that from the pessimism of weakness where beliefs
are hold not as a means to an end, but as an end in itself.

Having strong convictions is important, because it focus all your being in
achieving this purpose that you've created for yourself.

I would rather phrase the main idea in Mr. Graham's essay not as

"keep your identity small."

but rather

"keep your identity flexible."

What you believe today might not be what you'll need to believe in order to
reach a certain goal in the future.

Yes it's a form of relativism, and it requires a lot of self discipline to
avoid falling in to a kind of "it's no use", pessimistic stance, that nothing
really matters. It means holding something true, even if you know it isn't
true. Just make it so. Because that's the efficient and practical thing to do.

------
giles_bowkett
No matter how small you try to make it, it's always there. If you try to make
it smaller you'll just push part of it below your conscious perception. Then
it's a big freaking iceberg destroying things and you don't even know.

Better to disengage your identity. Use your imagination to adopt other
people's identities. Experience and consider things from within those
identities.

------
bugmenot
Everything is politics, religion is politics, javascript is politics. Anything
where disagreement is possible incurs politics. This is why javascript
discussions descend into religious debates and also why the premise and
conclusions behind your entire essay is garbage.

------
c00p3r
What is common in religion and politics - the possibility to blame someone
else for your own condition. And, as you said, everyone is an expert!

~~~
yters
That exists in science and pretty much everything else too. For example, look
at how obesity has been labelled an "epidemic," implying it is a disease and
not something people have control over.

------
thepanister
hmmmmmmm

Not weird that it has more than 200 comments!

