

Witness Accounts Show the Power of False Memory - mturmon
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/nyregion/witness-accounts-in-midtown-hammer-attack-show-the-power-of-false-memory.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

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chernevik
I watched the video ten times and I don't understand how this is a good shoot.

You have two cops against a guy with a _hammer_ and the immediate solution is
to shoot the guy? The first reaction of the assaulted cop is to run away from
the attacker, which is understandable, I suppose, but really doesn't look like
optimal hand-to-hand tactics. And her partner immediately draws his pistol and
shoots the guy in the back. Why not grab him from behind and take him to the
ground? Or whack him in the back of the head with a nightstick?

I really have to question the training and capabilities here. Is part of the
problem here that one of them isn't large enough and strong enough for the
situation? I doubt that, proper training and attitude should be enough here.
But if size is a crucial factor here then that person shouldn't be a cop.

I expect cops to deal with something like this without killing people.
Subduing people without killing them is part of the job. They didn't get it
done here. To me this looks like manslaughter, and they certainly shouldn't be
on the force.

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tptacek
This is spelled out in the General Order documents of every US police
department.

Virtually all police are authorized --- in fact, trained & required --- to use
deadly force to "protect themselves or another person from imminent death or
serious bodily injury". A credible hammer swing to their partner's head
obviously qualifies.

Unlike in other situations, they aren't supposed to carefully judge the
minimum possible level of force. If "imminent death or serious bodily injury"
is at stake, they are trained to use firearms.

No cop in that situation wants to try to grapple with the attacker --- he's
about 8-10 feet away from the officer when he brandishes his weapon --- only
to fail to prevent the hammer strike that paralyzes his partner.

There's a legit public policy debate to be had about whether US foot police
should be outfitted and trained more like UK police, so that most of them
don't have firearms at all. But it's not fair to single these officers out. If
we're going to evaluate this incident under the rubric of "a good shooting",
as you did, it's hard to see how this doesn't qualify.

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XJOKOLAT
In many cases, I've always wondered this:

Why not just shoot the legs? Why does it have to be "deadly force"?

Just asking. My knowledge of this subject ends at watching Schwarzenegger
target legs in T2.

~~~
dionidium
It's funny that you reference T2, because the usual snarky reply to your
question is that that only works in the movies.

The whole point is that you're trying to neutralize a deadly threat. It's no
time for target practice or carnival games. Someone is attacking you with a
deadly weapon. It is time to neutralize that threat at all costs.

I appreciate the instinct to preserve life. That shows a level of empathy that
I respect a great deal. But I think it's an eccentric position. Most people
are of the opinion that you lose the right to your own safety when you make a
threat on another person's life.

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TillE
I thought it was really odd that this never got discussed during the whole
Brian Williams thing. Sure, sometimes people deliberately embellish their
stories, but memory is a delicate thing that changes over time without you
ever noticing.

It's very very common to clearly remember something that never actually
happened.

~~~
tacoman
Yeah, definitely. I have a few memories like this. I can very clearly remember
seeing the Easter bunny when I was a kid. Obviously this never happened, but I
can describe the scenario and what the human-sized rabbit looked like. Also, I
have a memory of my brother which is logistically impossible for me to have.

These are just examples of things I realize aren't real memories because the
situations were never possible.

I was recently talking to some coworkers about a problem we had about 3 years
ago. We all had different accounts of some of the details, but we were all
about equally certain about our recollection of events. After digging through
some old email, it turns out only one of the four of us was right.

The fallibility of our memories is something I think most of us significantly
underestimate.

~~~
Lawtonfogle
My favorite is having a chain of memories where A happened after B happened
after C happened after D happened after A. At least one of them is wrong, but
I don't know which, and unless I think about the entire chain at the same
time, they all make sense.

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jadell
The Illustrated Guide to Law is doing a section on this right now:
misconceptions of how memory works, how it really works, and how we fill in
gaps in memory without realizing it or intending to.
[http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=3032](http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=3032)

As an aside, I don't think the expert they quoted could have had a better
paired name to go with their statement than: "Said Dr. Strange, 'It is
surprising to the average person how quickly memories can be distorted.'" Read
it in your best super villain voice.

~~~
vidarh
If I was "Dr Strange", I'd make a point of wearing a suitable outfit inspired
by the comics.

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emodendroket
I read an article about Ms. Loftus (whom this article also mentions) in Slate
several years ago and it kind of got to me. Between that and various issues
with forensic evidence you start to really be overwhelmed by the scope of the
false conviction problem.

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pjc50
Relatedly, [http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/05/man-knife-
sho...](http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/05/man-knife-shot-dead-
metropolitan-police-london)

"It was the first fatal shooting by Metropolitan police officers since that of
Mark Duggan in August 2011 which led to the worst riots in modern English
history" (ie the Met hadn't had to shoot anyone for three years)

and also "Witnesses differ in their recall of the number of shots fired, with
accounts varying from three to 10".

