
MIT Media Lab Scientist Used Refugees to Tout Food Computers That Didn't Work - harrygoldstein
https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/at-work/start-ups/mit-media-lab-scientist-used-syrian-refugees-to-tout-food-computers
======
iancmceachern
I got caught up in this train. After watching the TED talk I saw an
opportunity to leverage my product design/engineering consultancy to sell Food
Computer kits and pre-assembled circuit boards. I built a website
(www.openagriculturesupply.com) and embarked on building a supply chain,
having PCBs and fully assembled PCBAs made and stocking kits.

After lots of investment in both time and capital I was never able to get one
to work. The software stack was unsupported and after talking with everyone I
could I was unable to find anyone who was able to get the software working
outside of the walls of MiT.

I then worked on a related product, growcomputer (www.growcomputer.com) but
ultimately there just isn't enough value in these kinds of products. As others
have posted here and in previous HN posts on this topic, the A&E schools and
plant scientists have long ago figured all this out, one can already purchase
plant growth chambers, all manner of hydroponic and aeroponic systems,
nutrients, controllers, climate controlled greenhouses, etc.

Ultimately it comes down to the economy of powering plant growth with electric
lights. It just does't add up except in specific applications like mushroom
farming, and very high end "foodie" niche markets. The value proposition just
isn't there.

edited - formatting

~~~
samvher
In the Netherlands our main way of growing food is in greenhouses. It causes a
lot of light pollution and I actually found it a quite disturbing sight when I
flew over one of the greenhouse areas by night once (there are columns of
light in the sky). We export lots of tomatoes, bell peppers, etc. I guess if
you have space and a sunny climate the value proposition isn't there, but if
you have a cooler climate, a high population density (land is very expensive),
and a high-tech agriculture sector it seems to work out differently.

~~~
dmurray
Wow - according to one source "The Netherlands is the world's second largest
exporter of agricultural products, after the USA" [0]. Sure, it has good
quality soil and high tech farming, but it's amazing that can make up for the
sheer lack of space. It's smaller than all but 9 US states, and it's not rural
either - it's more populous than all but 4.

[0] [https://www.hollandtradeandinvest.com/key-
sectors/agricultur...](https://www.hollandtradeandinvest.com/key-
sectors/agriculture-and-food)

~~~
PeterisP
Agricultural products have very, very large differences in value density, and
one that Netherlands is seriously exploiting.

Ten acres of corn has much less value than ten acres of roses, so growing
flowers is a major export industry for Netherlands.

~~~
dmurray
That's part of it, but looks like only about €9b of €90b total [0]. Meat,
dairy and vegetables are all comparable; certainly the east of the country
seems to be all cows. Cereals don't crack the top ten categories, though.

[https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/03/dutch-agricultural-
exp...](https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/03/dutch-agricultural-exports-at-
record-high)

------
wil421
>Plants tested included cucumbers, basil, and baby lettuces.

Not the best plants to grow especially in a tight space. Cucumbers will take
over everything especially close together. The bush varieties are good for
container gardens but the tendrils will attach to other plants. I have to keep
them off of other plants or provide a trellis to grow. Last year I got an
infestation of cucumber beetles. Tomatoes grow like weeds and don't latch on
to neighboring plants. Both grow from seed like wild fire.

Lettuce and basil do not provide enough nutrition for this kind of setup.
Enough said. Arugula is more profitable than most but will bolt with heat.

>But despite all this money and brainpower, things soon went awry in Jordan.
Schroeder, in a phone interview, told Spectrum that the conditions at the
NCARE site were harsh, with a very dry desert climate and high indoor
temperatures. The power frequently failed, which shut down the building’s air
conditioning and the food computers’ LEDs. When the air conditioning conked
out, it sometimes reached 45 °C (113 °F) inside the lab.

>Worse, the Wi-Fi was unreliable. A Wi-Fi connection was necessary to remotely
monitor some of the parameters inside the grow chambers, which were equipped
with cameras and sensors that measured temperature, humidity, and pH levels.

I am in the Deep South and that temperature is not going to work at all. Temps
in the 90s will stop my plants from growing, cause flower drop and stop
fruiting but humidity here is also a factor, not a factor in Jordan.

Stable power and wifi in a refugee camp? Keep dreaming. This part should be
automated with sensors and a solar battery (or backup batter in case of power
loss).

I am planning a couple projects with my Raspberry Pi's to collect data and do
some automation for my plants. Once I have something going I will submit a few
things to HN.

Let me know if anyone wants to know more or has any questions.

~~~
dragontamer
Growing herbs like Basil is a great way of getting started however. Not
because it actually provides nutrients, but because tiny amounts of basil
(just a few leaves) can grossly change the flavor-profile of your food. A
small amount of Basil goes a long way in cooking.

Basil is also very easy to grow, so its a great beginner plant.

------
cortesoft
I am really having trouble understanding this project... how would this be a
good way to feed people? It has so much technology to produce so little food,
and requires consistent power and internet... can anyone explain why this
would be a good idea?

~~~
paulgerhardt
As a recent twitter rant against the Media Lab food computers went[1] -
massive indoor farming operations basically already work this way and have in
fact ironed out most of the bugs. There just happens to not be so much cross-
pollination between traditional A&M schools and the Media Lab.

It should be noted that land grant schools were solely set up all over the
country a hundred and fifty years ago to tackle exactly this domain of
problems and not without some irony that MIT is one.

[1]
[https://twitter.com/sarahtaber_bww/status/117189565787294105...](https://twitter.com/sarahtaber_bww/status/1171895657872941056?s=21)

~~~
DonHopkins
>There just happens to not be so much cross-pollination between traditional
A&M schools and the Media Lab.

MIT's Robotic Bees will solve that problem.

[https://futurism.com/mit-researchers-give-the-robot-bee-a-
ma...](https://futurism.com/mit-researchers-give-the-robot-bee-a-major-
upgrade)

~~~
angry_octet
If you mark such posts with <humor> it will be easier for users to down vote
them.

------
rhizome
I'm starting to get the feeling that a large number of industry (Tech & VC,
let's say) names with which I'm familiar are just scamming, at least among the
"announcement -> vaporware -> incredible journey" publicity pipeline
participants. If this is true it would really undergird the possibility that
the top of the industry is just a bunch of guys who went to the same kinds of
schools, universities, and fraternities, and just keep recycling each other
over and over. It's not failing-up, it's the glass-floor.

~~~
Aperocky
This is much more prevalent in academia.

In industry you _eventually_ need to show result and earn money, it never get
to that part in academia.

beginloop People publish papers that are practically useless but can be cited
by other people in the same position, which then improves their standings
endloop

~~~
mjfern
Tell that to Theranos, Fyre Festival, WeWork, the counterfeiters on Amazon,
the myriad of shady ICOs, and on and on. Unfortunately, scammers are rife in
industry. Let's not fool ourselves.

~~~
gundmc
I think your examples help prove the parent comment's point. Each of those
companies faced a reckoning when they weren't able to deliver on their
promises.

~~~
mjfern
WeWork had its valuation cut and the founder walked away with $1B+. Where can
I sign up for this reckoning?

~~~
big_chungus
It is very possible that there will be action against Mr. Neumann. Any court
of competent jurisdiction would likely rule that he was in breach of his
fiduciary responsibility. There are even richer people who are not happy with
him, who can hire even bigger armies of lawyers to make his life hard. I'm
guessing they'll wait until they've got the company locked down and him out,
then start going after him.

~~~
angry_octet
I wouldn't be visiting any Saudi embassies if I were him.

------
mepian
I wonder whether the Media Lab is going to be shut down after the recent
revelations, or the MIT administration is going to pretend that nothing
happened.

~~~
TTPrograms
lol this is around 1% of the projects going on at any given time in the Media
Lab.

~~~
aabhay
It says something that one of the most well known and highly-praised media lab
projects is basically a sham. What does that say about the other 99% of
projects that aren’t even worth mentioning?

~~~
_jal
I don't know about the other projects. To me, it says that the funding model
has eaten the reason for the Lab existing.

Feeding the hype machine that generates donations is considered more important
than the work (not to mention the truth-seeking function of academia) the
donations are supposed to fund.

There needs to be some serious house-cleaning if they want to be considered an
actual research lab of any repute. Ito was a problem, but he quite clearly was
not the only one.

~~~
dmix
Academic donation seeking is a much easier thing to disconnect from real world
ROI than most businesses can get raising capital. And 99.9% of businesses are
not the 5 unicorns you read about in the media.

~~~
_jal
I think to a certain extent that's actually fine. An academy should not be run
as a corporation; I think that notion is part of what is causing problems.

What academia should _not_ be divorced from is knowledge and truth seeking. I
don't mean that in some wooly, idealistic sense: if that isn't the focus,
you're hucksters and frauds, not academics.

------
mattnewport
TED talks are getting to be a counter-signal of credibility.

~~~
manigandham
TED Talks lost their luster long ago when they turned into regional self-
hosted events with less and less quality checks and more speakers doing sales
and promotions.

~~~
lozaning
I thought that was supposed to be the difference between TED and TEDx. TEDx
being the one lacking most any credibility.

~~~
fastball
TEDx isn't really about credibility though.

The talks I've seen out of TEDx tend to be more "this is interesting" rather
than "this is 100% the truth about ____". I think most TEDx events take
themselves less seriously, which results in fewer speakers that think they are
the end-all-be-all of some topic. Where as TED events seem to try to get the
"foremost expert on ____", even if the entire area of _____ is mostly
quackery.

Though really I think the pompousness is proportional to size and has (almost)
nothing to do with TED vs TEDx. Anecdotally, the fairly large TEDxGlasgow had
a lot more wankiness than the quite small TEDxUbud.

------
nostromo
I actually think this sounds like a dope project and I would love for it to
succeed.

BUT, come on folks, refugees are not your fucking PR opportunity. I can't
imagine how insulting it must be to need food, shelter, and a source of
income, and some clueless techbro from across the globe sends you a
malfunctioning Raspberry Pi grow tent. How disconnected from reality does one
have to be to think this is a good idea.

~~~
kbrosnan
The food computer idea was one that industry had working a decade before under
the name growth chambers.

[https://twitter.com/SarahTaber_bww/status/117189568344985600...](https://twitter.com/SarahTaber_bww/status/1171895683449856003)
[https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=industrial%20growth%20...](https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=industrial%20growth%20chambers)

~~~
whyenot
That tweet is snarky, but it's also wrong. Growth chambers have indeed been
commercially available for over 50 years, but a "food computer" appears to be
a little different, because it also includes the plumbing and reservoirs for
growing plants hydroponically.

~~~
jjoonathan
Are you familiar enough with the high-end growth chamber market to make
informed statements about "food computer" features not being available?

Or are you just saying that low-end growth chambers also exist that don't
include "food computer" features?

------
turdnagel
I hate that this is called a "food computer." I know what they are now from
reading the article, but it's totally non-intuitive. Why are publications
using this in headlines? They're mini grow labs. Pretty straightforward.

~~~
whymauri
I was around when they built the first one (I was taking an IAP class on bio-
entrepeneurship) and the big idea was that the computer would (1) make the
food more nutritious (2) "democratize" agrifood commodities regardless of
geography and (3) be fully automatic.

Sounded like a cool idea... too bad Caleb is a scammer.

~~~
pnako
> "democratize" agrifood commodities

By "agrifood commodities" do you literally mean "vegetables or cereals"?
People all over the world have been practicing agriculture for thousands of
years. Generally it's more effective using things like spades, sickles, etc.
than a 3D printer-looking nonsense.

~~~
whymauri
Nah, more like "grow mangoes in your Boston home in January instead of paying
the seasonal upcharge" type thing. I feel like the original intention was to
make a cool gadget (the original name was Personal Food Computer), not solve
hunger. Got blown way out of proportions.

------
mikorym
I find it amazing how people think that "farming box machines" (which in my
book includes hydroponics) are somehow better than just ploughing a furrow,
watering it, planting and then proceeding to water and fertilise as needed.
Hydroponics does make sense if you grow cannabis.

There is also a misconception about "shade plants". All of the major plant
crops that I know of want full sun. Sunburn in avacodos (for example) is due
to pruning or exposed stem/bark and the reason why paint (er, sunblock) is
applied is an efficiency measure; the exposed stem also stimulates fruit
formation so you don't want too many leaves (which naturally would prevent
sunburn).

~~~
ClumsyPilot
it's not only weed, I worked in the space, and tomatoes, cucumbers, and some
speciality plants can achieve insane yields in a hydroponic greenhouse. A
significant percentage are now grown that way. That being said we are talking
about large-scale greenhouse, not a tiny box with more electronics than grow
space

~~~
mikorym
This is assuming you live in an adverse climate. If the climate is good
outside then the costs involved don't justify it.

Nethouses (vs. Greenhouses vs. Glasshouses) are common in areas with a good
climate (such as Almeria in Spain) but they are not always the optimal
solution. The further requirement to justify nethouses is space as a limiting
factor (or water).

But I would categorise Nethouses still as being "outside farming". They don't
even stop rain from getting through.

~~~
ClumsyPilot
I have not come across penthouses, but I believe part of the yield improvement
comes from the hydroponic setup, rather than climate control. My astronomy
knowledge is very basic thou.

------
RachelF
MIT's reputation is going down the tubes. First the Aaron Swartz persecution,
then Epstein links now this.

~~~
tinyhouse
MIT's reputation will be fine don't worry. The main thing people need to
realize is that there are shitty and not so smart people everywhere, even at
prestigious places like MIT.

~~~
deepnotderp
And shitty and very smart people. Remember, nazis built the u.s. space
program.

But the real question is: to what extent is this a systemic issue? In other
words, does the current system/ environment select for these types of these PR
over engineering people?

------
knzhou
Back when I was at MIT, the shiny Media Lab building was right across the
street from my room. We told a lot of stories about it, usually starting with
some variant of "as you all know, the Media Lab is the coolest place in the
world". That was its reputation, but I always thought there was something off
about the place, and avoided anything associated with it.

------
ww520
The fake it till you make it mantra looks like has gone too far in this case.
Screwing with people's food supply, especially refugees who're in no position
to push back, is just beyond merely questionable.

------
PeterStuer
Be relieved that it all ended with some junk boxes strewn around some labs and
schools this time.

Next time these cons will sell 'save the planet with geo-engineering' to
another gullable audience and we'll all be screwed big-time.

------
anm89
There is obviously some attempt to invoke anger here but it's hard for me to
understand exactly at what.

Another title could have been: Nonprofit sends food growing technology to
refugee camp. That's a pretty generous use of the word "used".

Should they have intentionally kept silent about the fact that they were
actively working with refugee camps until they had peer reviewed proof that it
worked?

No one here did anything wrong. The technology failed. They will either
iterate or decide the idea isn't worth pursuing. No outrage necessary.

------
tony_cannistra
Does anyone know of any data on the rate at which "technologists" (sorry) lie
about or otherwise entirely misrepresent their accomplishments?

~~~
DonHopkins
I suspect it's highly correlated with TED talks.

------
t_mann
The Media Lab is starting to look like a liability for MIT.

------
algaeontoast
At some point it seems like MIT as an institution is going to have to start
cutting their losses and save face somehow to retain their academic
reputation. The Media Lab seems like a logical first choice for a lab to be
axed.

------
lixtra
> Moore’s team found that the conventional indoor setup grew microgreens at
> four inches per week—twice the rate of the food computer.

I’m very happy to read that some science teachers in the US get it right.

------
atsushin
It's disappointing seeing such behavior from individuals from what I've always
considered one of the most respectable institutions in the U.S. There'd be no
surprise from me if this sort of thing came from any one of the other myriad
startups scattered around the company selling empty promises and snake oil.
But scummy scam-like behavior? From MIT?? I was shocked when I came across the
claims saying that researchers were made to use outside plants with the PFC
during demonstrations.

~~~
pts_
Media Labs has been a white elephant for long. Refer to OLPC.

------
keyle
It amazes me how things were easy to get moving in 1993.

Imagine that applied to today.

Well, today, it would be a start up claiming to have secured telnet, with a
webapp, carry over session between mobile and desktop, and gathering telemetry
between each connection.

(apologies, this has turned into my yearly rant of "make protocols, not
apps!")

------
danso
Is this the first time a TED Talk has been put "under review"?

[https://www.ted.com/pages/caleb-harper-criticisms-and-
update...](https://www.ted.com/pages/caleb-harper-criticisms-and-updates)

~~~
banana_giraffe
Nope:

[https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.ted.com%2Fpages%2...](https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.ted.com%2Fpages%2F+"Criticisms+%26+Updates")

I wouldn't be surprised if there are more, just with a different phrase.

------
thewinnie
Hey, Does anyone knows what sensors are used for detecting humidity in range
RH 85-95%? Popular Chinese ones, BME/DHT/HTU are glitchy and brakes easily at
high humidity values. Is there are anything else on the market?

Thanks!

------
deft
So it's an overly complicated space bucket that doesn't even work?

------
Animats
Why was the MIT Media Lab doing an ag school project, anyway? Badly.

------
kpmcc
Think of how much better the world would be if half the money that went to
funding this bs just went straight to refugees.

------
angry_octet
If only he'd called it WeAg or WeFarm and spruiked it to SoftBank he'd be a
billionaire by now.

------
goatinaboat
It boggles my mind after all the farces and scandals that MIT still refuses to
disavow the Media Lab.

------
samirillian
No ecological solutions under capitalism.

