
Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship - kalium-xyz
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3091404/britain-give-3-million-hongkongers-residency-rights-and-path
======
dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23701333](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23701333)

------
rayiner
As someone from a country that was formerly part of the British Empire, I am
viewing the situation in Hong Kong with horror. There are many negative things
about the British legacy, but they gave us a global language, institutions,
law, and notions of personal and economic freedom. The idea of all that being
eaten by China...

~~~
mensetmanusman
Might makes right, nothing we can do about it unless people are willing to die
to protect them.

~~~
umvi
"Freedom isn't free"

Freedom is extremely expensive in terms of blood required to achieve it, so
I'm always amazed at how easily people are convinced to give it up one inch at
a time until it's all gone again.

~~~
mensetmanusman
Most people don’t realize that the equilibrium state of humanity is definitely
not freedom.

Just check your nextdoor app, or facebook: humans love telling other humans
how to behave, if you give them force, they will use it.

~~~
candiodari
And in plenty of fields, people do actually have this option. Correcting
society is an explicit goal of social work and psychology, both in research
and practice. From "youth work" (50%+ unwanted by both youth and parents, and
when it comes to residential treatments 85%+ unwanted, and 12% residential
treatment is convicted youth) to "social work" for adults (again, majority is
unwanted)

And of course, unwanted means that for the "clients" there is at the very
least a threat of violence against them (or their kids/family/...) in the
majority (for kids VERY large majority) of cases.

In some countries, "the social sector" is the biggest public sector, in all
countries it's very, very big. Including the US, but at least here it doesn't
exceed education or the medical sector in size.

Of course, these don't let themselves be stopped by the longstanding research
pointing out that without client's cooperation (and of course unwanted means
no cooperation), there is little to no point to treatment, and _very_
significant downsides. Which is why horror stories like this happen:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noa_Pothoven#:~:text=3%20Publi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noa_Pothoven#:~:text=3%20Publications-,Life%20and%20activism,and%20made%20her%20well%2Dknown).

Such horror stories are anecdotal evidence. The real proof comes from large
scale statistical studies:

[https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/s2215-0366(19)30180-4](https://sci-
hub.se/10.1016/s2215-0366\(19\)30180-4)

Or, for the youth case:

[https://sci-hub.se/10.1257/aer.97.5.1583](https://sci-
hub.se/10.1257/aer.97.5.1583)

------
Rapzid
The Sino-British Joint Declaration was a mistake. What did they think would
happen? If not now then what about in 2047?! Were they hoping that was enough
time to warm the new generations to the idea of giving up their rights?

There is no fixing this, but I appreciate the effort by the British. Many will
not want to leave, understandably. But the threat of draining HK is an
interesting sort of pressure to put on China..

~~~
eloff
There was no alternative really, China would have just seized HK by force.
Jolly good show by the Brits to standby the people of Hong Kong though with
this immigration offer. Politicians rarely do the right thing instead of the
self-interested thing, but you have to hand it to Johnson's government on this
one.

~~~
rurounijones
> Jolly good show by the Brits to standby the people of Hong Kong

Having a new source of immigration when you have just screwed yourself over in
attracting European immigrantes due to Brexit is common sense rather than
altruism.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> Having a new source of immigration when you have just screwed yourself over
> in attracting European immigrantes due to Brexit is common sense rather than
> altruism.

Immigration is not actually something you need to have.

~~~
trianglem
Yes you do. The paradigm has changed and now you must. In fact it’s abhorrent
to have a homogenous population.

~~~
eloff
Immigration is a must if you don't have a high enough birthrate to sustain
economic growth - because we don't know how to manage a declining economy -
and why would you accept that when you have the tool of immigration? Not
because there is any fundamental need for a racially or culturally diverse
population. Those things seem like they would be beneficial in my opinion, but
not required.

~~~
trianglem
I think we are getting to a point in the world where being able to deal with
different cultures could start to be seen as a requirement, similar to knowing
English in a global world.

I feel like Indians already benefit from this which is why they seem to be
making very effective managers.

------
throwaway5575
They should have just done it from the start,

> Britain’s ‘disgraceful’ pre-handover efforts to deny nationality to
> Hongkongers revealed in declassified cabinet files

> Officials repeatedly pressured Portugal not to grant rights to Macau
> residents to prevent Hongkongers from asking for similar treatment

[https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-
kong/politics/article/2156385...](https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-
kong/politics/article/2156385/britains-disgraceful-pre-handover-efforts-deny-
nationality)

------
chrisco255
I wish the U.S. could make a New Hong Kong territory on the west coast
somewhere. I think that would give the HKers access to the Pacific and a place
to rebuild. I'd love to have those brilliant entrepreneurs and engineers over
here.

~~~
coldtea
> _I think that would give the HKers access to the Pacific and a place to
> rebuild. I 'd love to have those brilliant entrepreneurs and engineers over
> here._

Not many special "brilliant entrepreneurs". Just regular ole entrepreneurs
taking advantage of the specific spot HK was in, and the specific relationship
between Britain and China for global trade.

Merely bring the same people elsewhere would accomplish no great miracle.

It's not like taking SV-based VCs and programmers into e.g. Oklahome (where
they'd just make a new hotspot, since their skills are carried with them).

It's more like taking the people in the tourist industry of Miami and moving
them to Maine. It just wont work as well, since it was all about location in
the first place...

~~~
aswanson
There's nothing particularly special about SV VCs /programmers. Just a
crapload of capital allocated there. Programmers are abundant throughout the
country.

~~~
coldtea
> _There 's nothing particularly special about SV VCs programmers. Just a
> crapload of capital allocated there_

A crapload of capital tends to statistically attract the best programmers.
Some of the biggest problems to solve/employers being there, ditto.

In other words, my comment wasn't about born and raised SV VC/programmers. It
was about VC/programmers working in SV.

------
georgeburdell
The UK stands to benefit tremendously from this olive branch to the HK people.
It could rival Operation Paperclip (but without the war crimes coverups)

~~~
amiga_500
The "happy coincidence" to a genuinely welcome offer is a huge boost to a
collapsing real estate market.

------
cft
It would be highly advantageous for the US to offer the same (assuming they
even want to come here still)

~~~
tempestn
Seems unlikely at the moment; the US seems very focused on doing the opposite.

~~~
tim58
While it's true the trump administration is very anti immigrant at, it is also
very anti ccp.

~~~
addicted
I don’t understand where people get that idea from.

In practice nothing the US has done has hurt the CCP. If anything, it has
strengthened them domestically.

The major actions the Trump administration has taken against China are: 1)
Tariffs which only served to hurt American farmers, considering there was
hardly any drop off in Chinese exports to the US (and that’s on paper, since a
lot of Chinese exports are now hidden as Vietnamese exports, etc) but
significant drop offs in American exports to China. 2) A long sustained battle
against 1 Chinese company. While Huawei is suffering, the likes of Xiaomi, etc
are still doing just fine. 3) Whining about the nomenclature around SARS-
COV-2.

On the flip side, the administration dismantled TPP, which was a decade+ long
effort spanning multiple US administrations, and nearly every non Chinese
country on the Pacific, that would have actually dealt a huge blow to Chinese
bullying by providing companies doing manufacturing in China much more
attractive alternatives in the countries surrounding China.

~~~
lenkite
Xiaomi is only in end-user electronics and has nothing on infrastructure
hardware - AFAIK it is not competing with US companies in deploying 5G
hardware.

I do not consider a +20% drop in Chinese exports to the US as "hardly any
drop".

Trump has put an end to e-packet which was killing US small-scale businesses:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/10/trump...](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/10/trump-
changes-terminal-dues-and-epacket-rates/573337/)

TPP was a nightmare opposed both by the left and right - and even by Hillary
Clinton - at-least formally in her campaign. Only corporate shareholders
supported it. It even pushed copyright terms further! See
[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/08/whats-wrong-
tpp](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/08/whats-wrong-tpp)

------
mstaoru
I lived in China since 2008, and in between also in Hong Kong for a few years
(2013-2014). Hongkongers are absolutely different people, and even if there is
be a formal annexation by China, cultural assimilation will take a few
generations of unrest at least. It was always a very different feeling
stepping on the East Railway after crossing the border in Shenzhen. The phone
alive with all the missed Gmail messages and Telegram chats.

For me there is no Hong Kong anymore. There is Xianggang city, Guangdong
province.

------
reaperducer
It's worth noting that this article is 11 days old. A more recent dispatch
would be more meaningful since things have happened since then.

------
supernova87a
Not to make light of the offer (and I personally know people who may be
affected), but why would someone from HK really want to move to the UK?

Cold weather, mediocre food, expensive prices, expensive housing, and an
economy and system on the verge of entering a highly destabilized period.

That's an attractive offer?

~~~
easytiger
> cold weather

South of England, particularly London gets pretty low rainfall and decent
weather temperatures

> Mediocre food

You don't know what you are talking about!

> expensive prices

Compared to what?

> and an economy and system on the verge of entering a highly destabilized
> period.

Yea HK definitely won't experience any of that

~~~
mam2
You are delusional

~~~
easytiger
On what point precisely? Which of my rebuttals of unanchored relative
criticism above do you have issue with?

~~~
mam2
all of them

~~~
easytiger
Constructive.

------
Ericson2314
I hope this doesn't get ugly when people try to actually leave.

On the bright side, I wonder what good things this will do for the UK. I doubt
many of these people will vote Torry.

~~~
rayiner
Many immigrants who fled communism to come to the US remain strong Republican
voters. Cubans are still registered Republicans 2:1. Even as of 2008,
Vietnamese Americans were registered Republicans by a significant margin.

Unlike Trump, Johnson has done a good job pulling in minority voters. About
half the Indian MPs in the U.K. Parliament are Tories.

Your comment is particularly inexplicable given that Labour just ran someone
who wants to put a call for collectivizing property back in Labour’s platform.

~~~
peteretep
Of the four “Great Offices of State”, two are held by people of South Asian
heritage, as is the AG, and another Cabinet Member. Two of those people are
also women. Got to imaging Sajid Javid will be back there soon. Three of those
five families that went via the empire in Africa. Conspicuous absence of black
people tho.

~~~
mhh__
I imagine Javid will battle it out with Sunak if the Tories decide Boris can't
cut it against Keir

~~~
peteretep
I imagine Priti will throw her hat in the ring too, although God forbid it
comes to pass. I think Sunak would be a strong choice, where Javid doesn’t
have the charisma.

------
replyifuagree
This seems like the only way forward for HK citizens :-/

------
tacocataco
You would think China would be happy to have everyone just leave HK so it
could fill it with its own people.

------
Renaud
Can someone correct the typo in the title?

------
Animats
First Hong Kong, next Taiwan?

~~~
acdha
That’s what I keep thinking: this is a dry-run sewing if they’ll get
meaningful backlash from the next U.S. President.

~~~
peteretep
Taiwan and Hong Kong couldn’t be more different though. Hong Kong legislature
(heavily influenced by China) passed this law (edit: this turns out not to be
true). Hong Kong is already part of China. You don’t have 200km of water to
cross against a country that’s prepared for just that. There’s no TSMC. If
it’s a dry run for Taiwan, it’s a really shitty one.

~~~
iliveinchina
This is factually incorrect.

China's legislature amended Hong Kong's constitution to add the new national
security law precisely because the Hong Kong legislature - even under heavy
influence by mainland China - was unable to pass it.

~~~
peteretep
Sure. Regardless, legislative means were used, not force.

~~~
garmaine
Legislative means we’re not used. China had no legal authority to do what they
did... but no one will stop them.

You are correct to point out that force was not used (n/m the divisions of
tanks that have been on the border), and Taiwan is different.

~~~
peteretep
> Legislative means were not used. China had no legal authority to do what
> they did

You are in disagreement with the BBC on this point:

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
china-52765838](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52765838)

> The Basic Law says Chinese laws can't be applied in Hong Kong unless they
> are listed in a section called Annex III - there are already a few listed
> there, mostly uncontroversial and around foreign policy. These laws can be
> introduced by decree - which means they bypass the city's parliament.
> Critics say the introduction of the law this way amounts to a breach of the
> "one country, two systems" principle, which is so important to Hong Kong -
> but _clearly it is technically possible to do this_.

~~~
garmaine
It is a breach of the one country, two systems non-interference pact which the
handoff was conditional on, therefore not legal.

------
aswanson
China is a horrific, authoritarian monster. I hope this century sees their
vision checked and reduced back to the edges of humanity.

~~~
dang
Nationalistic flamewar is not ok here, let alone drive-by flamebait like this
that is as grandiose as it is cheap. We ban accounts that post like this.

No, that's not because we're defending China or are secret communist agents.
We're defending HN against vandalism. Not to mention arson.

We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23807418](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23807418).

~~~
aswanson
Apologies to the community. This post was after a few beers, but inexcusable
nonetheless. Won’t happen again.

~~~
dang
I've been there. Thanks for the kind reply to a rather harsh chiding.

------
Chiba-City
Does anyone follow British domestic politics? They can't stand Polish (et al)
immigrants amongst their numbers, much less browner skinned Indians and
muslims. Brits are an increasingly irrelevant, racist, and post-Imperial
bitter and reckless island nation (the size of Morocco) that can't feed
itself. As an American citizen, I advocate a 2nd 1776, whereupon we set their
miserable Brit "ship of state" adrift forever. Our future is better secured by
a fully reciprocal "nationalism" that does not sanction racist jingoism.
Consult John Mearsheimer for broader exposition of a fruitful and respectful
reciprocal nationalism without pretenses to "universalism."

~~~
Renaud
There are too many generalisations here to take any of your points seriously.
Racism exists in all countries, not just Britain. It may be worse or better in
Britain than elsewhere but it's certainly not alone.

If your point is that the potential influx of HKers will create social
tensions and feed into racism then I would agree, but that's not specific to
the UK. Having 3M people suddenly popping up on your doorstep can be a
challenge.

However, while I hope that many HKers take on the opportunity to get a real
British passport, I know most will do this as a backup plan. They will funnel
their families and finances out of HK (to the benefit of the UK) but still
live in HK for the most part.

Most HKer know they can't just show-up in the UK and be successful there as
they are in HK. Some will enjoy some opportunities and will manage to build or
rebuild their success but most have their lives strongly anchored in the
economic fabric of HK, and that's not easy to transpose elsewhere.

