
An ode to Apple’s awful MacBook keyboard - bprasanna
https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/01/an-ode-to-apples-awful-mac-keyboard/
======
laichzeit0
It really does suck. I have 20 years of professional software development on
keyboards, the last 2 years purely on the 2017 MBP, if that in any way
“qualifies” my opinion. This is a shit keyboard. Period. Probably not the
worst keyboard in existence, but definitely the worst in its price bracket.
Combined with the TouchBar I don’t think they could have made my development
life any more miserable. So if that was the goal, well done! You succeeded.
The trackpad is amazing though.

~~~
w1nt3rmu4e
It's been a while since I used mine since it was destroyed after falling 18
inches onto a wood floor (corner bent, screen connection shorted) but I'm
pretty sure the Macbook 12 keyboard is worse.

Maybe by a millimeter or so.

There is absolutely no way in hell a keyboard like this should be found on a
laptop favored by software engineers.

I'm not sure if Apple is seeing the writing on the wall here, but why not just
launch a developer line? Make it thicker, heavier, give it more battery, a
keyboard with a proper amount of travel, larger keys, more keys, whatever.
Ditch the retarded touch bar. More ram. More config options. More ports.

If they want to keep topping themselves on largely meaningless metrics and/or
aesthetic self indulgence then by all means do so -- sell those to the rest of
the market. The bulk of the market will buy the pretty ones.

Give me an uglier one that isn't so awful to actually use.

Or, seriously, start dying the death of a thousand cuts. I'm really close to
pulling out of the Apple ecosystem and retooling for other work. I'm sure I'm
not the only one.

What? Don't care about the people who work on iOS/macOS software
professionally? Don't need us? Why don't you go talk to Microsoft about that.

~~~
scrollaway
> _There is absolutely no way in hell a keyboard like this should be found on
> a laptop favored by software engineers._

I don't quite get it. Why are software engineers favoring such a laptop?
Shouldn't this be worded the other way around? "There is no way a laptop with
a keyboard like this should be favored by software engineers"...?

~~~
rjzzleep
It's tiny, super light, has decent battery, an "ok" CPU, 16GB ram and you can
hook up a whole bunch of external peripherals including GPU via thunderbolt 3.
It also doesn't have the coil whine the xps has and arguably better worldwide
support when you use the premium partners rather than the apple store itself.
In general the Macbooks aren't that much more expensive than the alternatives.

Not that I'm directly comparing it to the xps, since the macbook pro is
probably more closely related to the xps, but still there's no other device
with 16gb RAM in that segment. In terms of CPU the performance is pretty much
on par with the Macbook air although it's CPU was last updated in 2015

I don't have one. I still use my 4 year old Macbook air. The only thing that
bothers me is that I usually dual boot with linux and the newer macbooks are
getting worse to run linux on.

~~~
cm2187
When comparing to dell, I invite you to compare it to the latitude rather than
xps. Latitudes are much more functional, not meant to be a fashion statement,
have a keyboard with page up/down keys (which few other laptop keyboard have),
while being light, powerful and upgradable. The only problem is that the
fingerprint reader sucks.

~~~
chrisseaton
> not meant to be a fashion statement

Is this a polite way of saying they're ugly?

~~~
atomi
Another way of thinking about this is that Dell made little to no compromises
on function for aesthetics.

------
epaga
What a rant (and yes, she is VERY late to the party).

Other than the dust issue which I did have once (and got a keyboard
replacement for), I am in the extreme minority when I say that I absolutely
love the keystroke feel of this thing (MBP 2016). It's just the right amount
of "clicky-clacky" and yet just shallow enough to hit a sweet spot for me.

So yes - they deserve flak for the dust issue. But the key travel and
clackiness is really personal taste if you ask me...

~~~
mrmondo
I agree with you, while I've had both first and second (maybe third if we
agree there is a third) of the new gen of keyboards and no problems with any
of them - I accept that there has been some sort of design issue causing a
higher than 'acceptable' level of faults with them. Regardless as someone who
considers themselves a pretty hardcore fan of mechanical keyboards - I for
some odd reason enjoy typing on the new ultra low profile keyboards.

I can't fully explain it - it just 'feels' right (after an initial bedding in
period), I actually type /very/ fast on these keyboards - comparative to my
desktop (with a Das series 4 with blue switches) which I personally found
quite hard to admit (even to myself).

Obviously my experience is skewed due to not having any problems with recently
low profile keyboards, but I am still quite astonished at how well I am typing
not just on a laptop keyboard - but an ultra low profile keyboard.

~~~
jonathansorum
Das 4 with blue switches at _home_ right, not at work? I think I would be
shanked if I ever brought mine in again to the office

~~~
mrmondo
Blue switches at work - I do check with in those nearby my every 4-8 weeks
(truly!) to see if my typing is annoying anyone, so far in (6 years or so on
blues or similar) everyone just laughs and says they’ll let me know if it’s a
distraction but this far it’s not to them.

Several people have noted to the theme of the fact that typing has quite a
rhythm to it, so it’s not like an intermittent or seemingly random noise thus
they don’t seem to find it distracting.

By contrast people would be seriously pissed if someone had a desk phone
plugged in or a cell phone with an audible ring tone.

------
colinjoy
Switched from 2015 to 2018 model recently.

The good:

    
    
      - fingerprint for unlock is a nice convenience
      - 32GB RAM are nice. A much needed bump, allowing me run some workload on the client that previously required an additional workstation
    

the bad:

    
    
      - keyboard is noisy
      - touchbar = useless gimick - I actually used the F-keys and ESC a lot, now they are effectively gone.
      - touchpad much worse with it‘s fake press (i.e at drag and drop) and the increased size means more accidental inputs occur
      - removal of magsafe ... „it just works“ apparently is too boring
      - headphone jack moved to the right so the cable gets in the way of the mouse
      - thermals ... I hear the fans spin up a lot more.
      - port mono-culture. maybe usb-c is the future, but my present is now full of dongles
    

Overall, I‘d much prefer a 2015 or 2012 MBP enclosure with updated internals.
Not to mention the hefty price increase YoY.

~~~
audunw
> I actually used the F-keys and ESC a lot

Then remap Caps Lock to Escape right now. There's no good reason not to,
considering how easy MacOS makes it.

Can't help you with F-keys though. Never used them myself. On Mac OS there's
usually an alternate keyboard shortcut. That row of keys is too far away from
home row to be ergonomically useful.

My current keyboard doesn't have that row at all. Actually that was a bit of
an issue since I'm using Windows with that keyboard, and unlike Mac OS,
there's some real need for F-keys. So I had to remap F3 and F4, but that was
all.

In my opinion, the trackpad is a really great idea on paper, as that row
should never be used for frequent typing anyway. And it's pretty close to the
screen, so it's not too far to look down. But it doesn't seem like they've
managed to make it work in practice. I've seen some people who have had
success with some customisation though.

~~~
mightybyte
> Then remap Caps Lock to Escape right now.

I already remapped Caps Lock to Control. And I use Control a lot more than
Escape.

~~~
hollandheese
Use Karabiner-Elements to remap it to both. Escape when hit and control when
held.

~~~
saurik
I wonder how many more functions we can remap on this one key before Apple
finally removes it :/.

------
myl
I've been a mac user since before the "i" came along. But as my all time
favorite 2015 Macbook Pro ages, I'm concerned where to turn next. The current
Touchbar Macbook Pro line seems to favor weight and slimness over true "Pro"
features like having a desktop grade keyboard, speed and battery stamina.

Apple hit near perfectionism with the 2015 keyboard/ current desktop keyboard
line, please don't try to put a portable keyboard in a machine made for
professionals, just to free an extra fraction of an inch in height.

Apple used to make the worlds fastest, yet beautiful to look at, portable
workstations. Please don't forget us actual professionals who type all day and
care less about fractions of inches and shiny emojis.

Call it the Macbook Actual Pro and charge more I don't care, I just wanna get
back to work.

~~~
Spacemolte
I feel exactly the same with my late 2013 retine macbook pro. I'm actually
thinking about buying the same model used now, just to be sure I have a
replacement when my current machine breaks at some point, that seems more
reasonable than betting on apple to remove the touch bar, and fix all the
issues, in the next version.

------
qsdevacc
Meanwhile I'm over here quite enjoying it. I type on a Filco MJ2 50% of my
time and my MBPr keyboard the other 50%. It's not amazing, but it ain't bad
either. At least that's my opinion. And that's what this is all about
really... opinion. (Except for actual key failures or issues like that)

Caps lock fails to properly engage on my 2015 MBP too, its not an issue solely
of the new KB.

Sure there's issues, but I think people are kicking up WAY too much of a fuss.
I too paid >$2000 for my 2017 MBP.

~~~
tobyhinloopen
Your macbook is still new :) Wait until it gets slightly older... I got a 1 yr
old 2016 model and the keyboard went horrible in no-time. I just got rid of it
and returned to my 2015 MBP.

I'm somehow hoping some future model will have normal USB ports, HDMI and a
normal keyboard... yeah like that's going to happen.

~~~
taway_1212
What's wrong with USB-C? Sounds like a cool idea in theory - you essentially
don't need a docking station.

~~~
opencl
The entire problem is that you _do_ need a docking station/dongles to plug in
the 99% of peripherals that are not USB-C.

Having USB-C ports is great, having only USB-C ports is a constant annoyance.

And this is before getting into the absolute shitshow that is the cable
situation. Lots of cables are USB2 only. There are passive and active TB3
cables. Active TB3 cables cannot support USB 3.1. There are 3A USB-PD cables
and 5A USB-PD cables. Of course you can't tell any of this by looking at the
cable, only by plugging things in and wondering why they don't work. And these
are the problems with 100% spec-compliant cables before getting into all the
companies that completely ignore the standard.

~~~
taway_1212
Fair enough. If I ever get a laptop with USB-C, I think I'd replace at least
my monitors and keyboard mouse to USB-C devices, so that I can get the
"docking station" effect. Sucks if you don't want to do that (ex. because
you've just recently bought them) though.

------
FullyFunctional
The keyboard isn't great, sure, but I don't hate it nearly as much as I HATE
the !@#$!@#$ touchbar, which constantly picks up presses I didn't intend with
all sorts of "amusing" side effects.

~~~
crispinb
The compulsory fakebar forced me to get my first Windows machine for many
years. I do in all honesty find Windows fairly nasty compared to macOS, but
having a whole row of useful keys replaced with an effete Englishman's private
whimsy was a bridge too far for me.

For all the advances in hardware and software, there is no longer a single
good (by my lights) laptop option available on the market.

~~~
BigJono
I just chucked Ubuntu on a Dell, it's not perfect, but I'm pretty happy with
it so far.

~~~
crispinb
Was my preferred option, but I had too many niggling difficulties (driver
problems, hdpi not working on essential apps, etc). Most (not all) are fixable
with research, but I don't have time right now. TBH if I did I'd rather spend
that time running or sailing or playing music, not setting up an OS.

------
anentropic
It seems like Apple aren't actually practicing design any more

instead we have the superficial appearance of design - thinner, lighter, but
less useful

same with innovation - what is the TouchBar except a desperate attempt to
innovate, achieving only the superficial appearance of innovation while
actually producing something of no value

------
jorisw
To everyone hating on the TouchBar - as you should - seriously consider the
entry level MBP and just max out the specs. Voila, physical Esc and F keys.
Adios idiotic touch strip.

Only downside is that only 13”es are sold this way.

~~~
davidandgoliath
And it's limited to two ports, at least in earlier editions.

------
atemerev
Come on, I wanted exactly this kind of keyboard: barely visible but clicky and
tactile, since the early 1990s! Now I have finally got it. It feels great.

------
theonemind
I actually find it a great keyboard. However, I have mild RSI, and both travel
and force aggravate it. I like cherry MX blue switches because I can avoid
using much force, and I don't have to bottom out the keys, so I have a long
habit of stopping my keypress when I get tactile feedback that the keyboard
has registered the press.

So, I think a lot of people who don't like it could probably like it if they
approached it like I do. And, in my experience, you don't need that key
travel. You have to get used to stopping the keypress when it registers the
press. However, the keyboard gives very clear feedback about that.

If you compare it to other keyboards you use and expect the same thing, it
will disappoint you. Accept it as something different that you have to use and
think about differently.

It does not hamper my speed or accuracy at all. I can type about 80 WPM with a
negligible error rate (<1%. Obviously, the error rate goes up if I type
faster.) I can type perhaps even more quickly and accurately on this keyboard
than any I have ever used, and key travel literally just wastes your time and
aggravates (perhaps even causes) RSI.

------
ssijak
Ok, I`ll just say it, I like this new mechanism and bigger keys much more than
the keyboard before it. I like the size, clicking sound, pressure, precise
movements... The only downside is that they had reliability issues, and I hope
that they fixed that with 2018 version.

------
da_murvel
I think it's funny that now when Apple happened to make a truly awful
keyboard, basically everyone is raging. But PC makers has been building
terrible keyboards for years and no one seems to give a damn. Or is everyone
just assuming that keyboards are supposed to be that way on PCs? Also, this
problem goes beyond laptops, most "affordable" keyboards that I've tried has
been horrible as well. I'm typing at the moment at some standard logitech
keyboard my fingers cry for every key I press. It's got a cheap feeling to it,
the force it takes to press beyond the "bump" is way too great and the keycaps
wobble. The only thing I like about it is the profile which is rather low.

~~~
marcus_holmes
I have an Apple USB external keyboard for when I have to do serious typing on
the linux laptop...

Hopefully Apple will continue making awesome external keyboards and not
suddenly decide to mess this up by making them stupidly thin, or removing the
extra USB ports (so useful!) or converting them to USB C so need dongles to be
useful.

------
montenegrohugo
This is funny. I agree that the keyboard is awful, but end-users don't seem to
think the same, at least in my anecdotal experience. Both my mother and sister
are avid Mac users, and when buying a new keyboard (for the workplace) they
both searched for keyboards that emulated the macbook "feel". That is to say,
they searched for keyboards that had the same light, floaty (horrible in my
opinion) keystroke feel.

I don't know if it's a personal thing, or if you just get used to a specific
type of keystroke over time, but different people like different keyboards.

~~~
bootsz
> but end-users don't seem to think the same

True, but I think a lot of people feel the problem is that Apple has neglected
the "Pro" aspect of the "MacBook Pro". The new pro's don't feel like a machine
made for professionals; it's tailored for the average casual user. E.g.
professional software developers don't need a damn touchbar. I want my effing
escape key

------
tmvnty
Credits to Sod's law, I've purchased a 13' MBP without touch bar two days
before Apple announced their latest upgrade to the Pro series with an
"improved" keyboard design.

"How bad is the keyboard anyway?" I thought, "Is it worth the hassle to change
my laptop just to get the latest keyboard design?" So I decided to keep the
same laptop and give it a chance.

Two months later and today, my previous gen MBP's keyboard's "Down" arrow key
on the keyboard have 50/50 chance of responding to your presses, and it's
driving me crazy

------
nerdbeere
The biggest mistake here are those ridiculous arrow keys

~~~
flattone
I'm on board. It's like ... Did someone discover that were not actually using
up/down enough for equal arrow area?

------
mark_l_watson
It all depends on what you want in a laptop. At work I have the largest (size,
processing power, memory) MBP and I find the keyboard to be so-so; not to bad,
but don’t love it. This laptop is a clunker to carry around, so optimizing for
a thin keyboard doesn’t make sense to me.

For my personal laptop I have an 18 month old 12 inch MacBook and I love it.
The keyboard is fine because I want my personal laptop to be small and light,
with a good display.

------
gumby
FWIW I've writen about 60Kloc on a 2016 MacBook 12 (i.e. not "pro") and it
turns out to have worked pretty well for me. All of my development is in
Emacs, so I'm pretty keyboard-dependent.

That doesn't mean it's been great: I went through three of keyboards, and
would be on my fourth except that the MB had an unfortunate water incident. So
in two years I had almost two weeks of not having my machine available --
that's pretty bad!

New I've had a 2018 MBP for about three weeks and the keyboard is better (but
the machine is a lot heavier) and so far no kbd failures. (The touchbar is
pretty worthless to me but mostly harmless).

(Honestly if you're typing in a lot of code and just typing make and lldb the
MB was a great ultralight machine. YEs, building our whole system took a while
but mostly you're just ending and recompiling one module and it's still faster
than most several-year-old machines, which in the Mac world could reasonably
still be in use. It doesn't have the horsepower for those huge IDEs but I
don't use them anyway. They seem to use more cycles than the compilers!)

------
dbg31415
I hated the "new" pre-2018 MBP keyboards.

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=dbg31415%20keyboard&sort=byPop...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=dbg31415%20keyboard&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment)

But... I think with the new 2018s they've done some nice things.

You still have a stupid stupid touch bar on the 15s. I have a 13 without the
touch bar, and it's a billion times better.

You still have a silly silly large track pad (and it has some bend to it in
the middle... I don't like it at all).

BUT... the keys have just a tad more bounce to them. I think Apple did
something to help with the dust issue, and a side effect is that the keys feel
just a bit more responsive as you type.

Not saying it's great, or better than past versions, or even good yet... but
it's a step in the right direction. And honestly it's probably all we'll ever
get from Apple... so I'll take it. Hooray for keyboards that aren't quite as
bad as the "new" pre-2018s!

~~~
lloeki
> I have a 13 without the touch bar ... Hooray for keyboards that aren't quite
> as bad as the "new" pre-2018

Then it's a 2017 as the FN one was untouched by the 2018 refresh.

------
notjtrig
Isn't a bad keyboard part of the design, Apple has aways been removing I/O
options and locking down the software. A bad keyboard is just the natural
evolution of the concept.

Why should they give the average person the ability to type? Their buisness
model is focused on passive consumption.

------
mmjaa
Too little, too late. Apple have gotten away with it.

Typing this on a very crappy 2018 MBP keyboard, which I absolutely hate. If it
weren't for the dependency that my job has on submitting apps to the App
Store, I wouldn't be using Apple for _anything_ these days .. sad.

~~~
r_singh
Is the 2018 MBP keyboard different from the 2016-2017 one?

I use a MBP 2018 and thought the keyboard was the same as the 2016-2017 MBPs
(since the arrival of the touchbar).

It's understandable that you dislike the keyboard; feedback is awkward, like a
shallow hard button button press as opposed to a keypress.

However, over time I have grown to prefer this keyboard over the 2015 one with
the deep keys, and can actually type faster on the new one as well. The only
thing I find absolutely useless and inconvenient, is the touchbar.

~~~
flattone
Glad you brought this up. I'm on the 14" 16'-17' MBP no-bar. Keyboard seems
fine.

My previous 15" 14' MBP was nearly my favorite laptop experience ever. Exactly
that but newer chassis and as a 14" would buy again.

(Typing since late 80s)

~~~
xvector
Honestly after a week with the new keyboards you get used to them and you
don't notice them. If you're coming from a mechanical keyboard or deep-travel
keyboard, it feels horrifically shallow at first, but after some time with it
you cease to notice or even care. And this is what I think Apple is betting
on.

If you found the 2014 MacBook Pros enjoyable, I think you'll be even happier
with these. I certainly am.

------
doque
I got the first model with the new butterfly keyboard and the touchbar in
April 2017 and I still hate it. I appreciate the idea of adding a touchbar for
regular users. After all, it might be nicer for them to just press "Next Song"
when using Spotify than fiddling around with Fn+F*. But for power
users/developers, why do the most powerful MBP models come with these useless
gimmicks? I'm using Dongles on 3/4 of the USB-C ports right now and that's not
going to change anytime soon.

I wish Apple listened to developer's voices a bit more. To me, it's not a
matter of price, either. I'd gladly pay more for a MBP with more/different
ports and without a touchbar than I would for this model.

------
jasonwen
I like the keyboard. Programming for 10+ years and swithching sometimes to
Blue Cherry MXs. What I dont like is the touchbar. Completely worthless and in
the way.

There is definitely a problem with the dust though, two keys already start to
act weird and I keep my tech stuff clean.

------
StreamBright
It is kind of funny (not really) how Apple went on a suicide mission with the
MBP product line.

~~~
Razengan
MacBooks have been doing quite well in sales for a good while, sometimes
outselling competitors.

[https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/09/2016-macbook-pro-
sales/](https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/09/2016-macbook-pro-sales/)

~~~
StreamBright
Absolutely, until they wont because people realize the shortcomings. I am a
Mac user in the last ~10 years and most of this time MBPs beat competitors in
many regards, making other vendors copy their solutions. As of today I have to
make a decision to purchase a new laptop for somebody and MBP is not an option
anymore because of the freakin' keyboard. Regardless how good the rest of it
this already disqualifies it. I am certainly not the only one having issues
with the newer models and soon you are going to see a decline in those numbers
if Apple does not address these issues. You can't run on brand value forever.

~~~
Razengan
> _I am certainly not the only one having issues with the newer models_

 _Many_ more people _aren 't_ having issues. Nor did I when I had an MBP
(which I swapped for an iMac + 12" MB, and I'm thinking of getting the 2018
ones.) This isn't to downplay your concerns, but calling it "suicide" is
hyperbole.

------
newscracker
So how come no senior executive has been fired for this and the overall scene
of Macs languishing for years? This is certainly far from how Apple desires
its products and product lines to be perceived and written about.

Scott Forstall was fired (IMO, for a lot less) for the Apple Maps fiasco,
though he could’ve contributed a lot more to the company if he were still
around.

Something seems to be rotten right from the top, and there’s no _honest_
acknowledgement of how bad the state of affairs is on the Mac side.

~~~
orev
Companies predictably focus on the areas where they make the most profit. For
Apple, that’s clearly Phones, App Store, iTunes, even iAds. The laptop
hardware and OS are clearly in a minority when compared to those big earners,
so they just don’t focus any attention on them.

~~~
newscracker
But as prominent writers in the Apple/Mac space have been writing for years,
the state of the Mac has been terrible for a long time. The absolute
requirement of having a Mac to develop software for iOS, tvOS and watchOS
makes it necessary that Apple focus on the Macs — even if the range of options
is limited — to produce things that will help its primary market on iOS to
grow.

Selling old and outdated hardware for high prices (set during product launch
time) is even more insulting to the Apple brand.

I know that Apple’s organizational structure is also to blame, but clearly it
shouldn’t take so many years to even get started on fixing things and showing
some results.

Apple is losing with this attitude and negligence. One can only hope that it
starts showing that it is serious about walking the talk sometime soon.

~~~
Lio
This is a pretty personal opinion so feel free to disagree but Mac OS X era
Apple seemed to have the same air of Unix cool as Silicon Graphics, Sun or
NexT back in the day.

It was probably never true but they gave the illusion of caring intensely
about making delightful products.

All that changed when Apple's market interests shifted to larger, more
lucrative consumer markets. Now things like good emoji support are more
important that keyboard shortcuts for window management.

Apple is doing exactly what they should for their shareholders, I guess, but
since they've gone all "Barney the Dinosaur" they just doesn't have the magic
anymore for me. :(

Now their stuff just feels like dodgy "smart" TVs full of janky animations and
features you know some exec thought was cool for a day.

If Apple was still Apple they'd be able to make announcements at their
keynotes about fundamental stuff missing from macOS like, say, package
management and make it sound cool. The magic is that they'd get non-nerds to
care about it too.

------
toomanybeersies
I find it _OK_ to type with. Not absolutely terrible like the keyboards in the
high school computer labs, and not great like <insert mechanical keyboard
here> (I've never used a mechanical keyboard).

The main annoyance I have with it is that it's incredibly loud to type on when
in meeting rooms, which is the only time I really use it (I have a full size
Apple m=Magic Keyboard I use at my desk). It's obnoxious, especially if you're
not using an external mic.

------
beloch
Damn. This guy almost makes it sound like this is as bad as those puck mice
from the late nineties[1]. But seriously, if you bought a laptop without
trying out the keyboard first, you deserve what you get. No manufacturer has a
perfect track record. Try before you buy.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse)

------
noir-york
Apple built its brand on beautiful design.

But why do people want beautifully designed objects? Just to own something
beautiful? Sure.

But also because it makes you look cool, attractive to members of the opposite
sex, and earns the jealousy of yours.

But a keyboard which sucks ain't cool: sure the externals are great, but
wrestling with a stuck capslock is the opposite of exuding _je ne sais quoi_.

Not cool Apple. Not cool. And therefore not beautiful.

~~~
megablast
> But also because it makes you look cool, attractive to members of the
> opposite sex, and earns the jealousy of yours.

You really think a laptop has that effect on people? I do not.

~~~
noir-york
Oh absolutely! As soon as I flip open my mac in a cafe, every other patron
immediately turns towards me to jealously admire my mac before slowly turning
away to continue drinking their coffee and work away on their own mac...

Of course a laptop doesn't have that effect on people! I was being tongue in
cheek. But beautiful objects in general - think fine art, expensive watches,
etc - sure.

------
temporallobe
Meh. I've had everything from super-clicky mechanical KBs (RapidFire or
something kike that) to the flat butterfly keys on the MacBook. Like learning
to drive or play guitar, it becomes muscle memory after a while. I've gotten
used almost everything at this point in my life. However what I will NOT
accept is a virtual keyboard. I need at least some kind of tactile feedback.

------
666lumberjack
The truth is that this is hardly a unique case - most Apple laptops released
in the past 10 years have had serious hardware design flaws[1]. In this case
it's simply a particularly noticeable/frequent issue.

[1][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8)

------
erlich
The keyboard is great. It means that I get a free battery replacement about
every 2 years when keys start getting stuck.

------
jlengrand
I bought my first MBP in 2017. Love the machine. Hate the keyboard. It is just
very bad.

I only wished Apple acknowledged this and offered something as an apology.
After all, this is what any car / phone / anything else company would do.

It's fine to make mistakes, just embrace them and send love back to your
users.

------
ryeguy_24
Travel distance.

Without some decent amount of travel distance, a keyboard lacks feel. I type
130WPM and can not develop a rhythm on the new MacBook pros. To the day, I
love the MacBook Air and previous MacBook Pros circa 2015. In fact, I may buy
one on eBay. Apple, give us back travel distance.

------
berta
That awful keyboard is the main reason why I haven't switched from my 2012
Macbook Pro yet

------
bgdkbtv
I don't understand why everyone is so unhappy with it. Am I the only one
absolutely loves this keyboard? I think this is the best keyboard on any
laptop, and I wish I could have an external keyboard that is just like this
one.

------
sonnyblarney
It's a great keyboard ... when it's working. It's just not very robust.

------
ajb257
I feel I'm the only person in the universe that's never had an issue with the
keyboard, and actively likes it (I don't like much key travel, but I do like
clicky keyboards)

------
iliasku
ok here's one thing almost no one mentions and is hard for me to understand: i
do almost all of my development work on my desk, where i have an external
keyboard of my liking connected to my macbook. i only use the macbook's
keyboard when i'm travelling, and mostly for typing the first 2 letters of the
website i want to open on my browser. don't understand why people fuss about
so much about the keyboard: if you don't like it just use an external one.
what am i missing?

------
krn
Why would any developer prefer a Macbook running MacOS, over a Thinkpad
running Linux? Thinkpads give you a full control hardware, and Linux gives you
a full control of software.

~~~
stephenr
If you're developing iOS or macOS software, you need a Mac.

If you want to do live browser testing in all major browsers, you need a Mac,
and you _can_ do it with no other hardware, as you can virtualise all of
Windows/Linux/Android/iOS under macOS.

Based on
[https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd031426](https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd031426),
Lenovo support for Linux distro's is a mixed bag of "fuck you" and "Enterprise
Edition", so "full control" is likely to mean "Full Responsibility", too.

Why would any developer prefer to run a hardware/software combination that has
zero support if something fails, and predictably endless issue volleyball
between h/w and s/w vendors if you happen to use one of the specific
combinations that has support, over running hardware and software that is
supported by a single company?

Personally, I prefer to spend my working hours actually making money. If you
prefer to be endlessly tweaking kernel parameters or driver settings because
you updated some software and now your trackpad works in reverse, well then
good luck to you sir.

~~~
krn
> If you're developing iOS or macOS software, you need a Mac.

I agree, that's probably the only valid reason for a developer to prefer a
Macbook over a Thinkpad: if he needs to develop software for Apple hardware.
But in the age of React Native and Electron, I never had to develop
specifically for iOS / MacOS.

> Lenovo support for Linux distro's is a mixed bag of "fuck you" and
> "Enterprise Edition", so "full control" is likely to mean "Full
> Responsibility", too.

In practice, most Linux desktop distributions are developed and tested by
people working on Thinkpads. In a non-Apple world, it's the OS developers who
decide what hardware they support, not the hardware company.

> If you prefer to be endlessly tweaking kernel parameters or driver settings
> because you updated some software and now your trackpad works in reverse,
> well then good luck to you sir.

I don't remember having to tweak a single thing on my default Linux desktop
installation since 2013. Everything just works out of the box, if you pick
Fedora Workstation or Ubuntu, and your hardware wasn't released 5 days ago.

> Personally, I prefer to spend my working hours actually making money.

Yet, I see here people spending their working hours complaining about the
hardware they bought from Apple, and the software Apple shipped to them with
that hardware, as if they had no other choice in life.

~~~
stephenr
> probably the only valid reason

It's a bad sign you're already talking in absolutes.

> in the age of React Native and Electron, I never had to

So, you release apps that you've literally never tested on the platforms you
support? I bet they work _great_.

Arguing that Electron is a reason not to use a Mac, is like arguing that
McDonalds is a reason not to learn how to cook.

> most Linux desktop distributions are developed and tested by people working
> on Thinkpads

Great and I assume they'll be on-call to fix your issues at 3am when something
goes wrong?

> it's the OS developers who decide what hardware they support

So.. it's "full control", so long as you pick a distro whose
developers/maintainers have chosen to support the combination of devices in
the laptop spec you chose.... sounds great.

> if you pick Fedora or Ubuntu

So now it's "full control" so long as you pick one of two distros, and
hardware that meets their requirements to support...

> Yet, I see here people spending their working hours

Oh, I must have missed the new "posting during work hours" flag.

Also - I'd argue that _most_ people on HN don't get paid hourly, they're paid
a salary, so if they fuck around on HN for 40 minutes whinging about their
laptop, it doesnt actually cost _them_ anything.

> as if they had no other choice in life

Of course their are choices. I didn't reply to you because you said "I use
Distro X on Hardware Y and it works great", I replied because you said "Why
would any developer prefer a Macbook running MacOS, over a Thinkpad running
Linux?".

People complain about "personal anecdotal evidence" being pretty low value -
but it's still fucking better value than making blanket, absolute statements,
which upon further digging are in fact nuanced with layer after layer of
caveats and unstated details.

~~~
krn
What I said, is that buying Apple hardware just to be able to test iOS / MacOS
software doesn't make much sense, unless you work as a iOS / MacOS developer.
I don't. And I never stated, that Electron is a reason not to use MacOS.

There are hundreds of Linux desktop distributions, because unlike in the
Apple-world, PC users actually do have a choice. I mentioned the ones I have
most experience with, because I cannot recommended to others what I haven't
used extensively myself.

I was forced to work on MacOS for a year, and even though it was much better
than Windows, it was still far away from the experience a complete Linux
workstation can provide to a developer.

------
jorisw
I could have lived with all its faults if the arrow keys were remotely usable.
They are not. I challenge you to blindly find the up arrow without pressing
the down arrow.

------
moltar
Ive recently replaced mine under warranty and rep hinted that they’ve reworked
it and fixed the original sticky key problems. Time will tell. My broke under
a year.

------
whywhywhywhy
Getting real tired of the Apple apologists spinning it that Apple keyboards
have never been reliable and this is perfectly normal. My TiBook G4 still
works at 16 years of age, my 2006 Alu iMac keyboard is still used daily, my 4
year old MBP keyboard works fine. My 8 month old USB-C MBP has key deadzones
and 5 glitchy keys and a few keys significantly louder than others.

It’s crazy how apple managed to turn my most loved machine into my most hated
with just a single design update.

------
cpcat
You know what's worse? Their bluetooth keyboard is not backlit so you can't
use that as an alternative either.

------
schappim
It really is bad.

I'm so close to "office-spacing" this keyboard.

------
purplezooey
They should make a Cherry MX MBP. that would be badass.

------
ux-app
absolutely agree. The new keyboard is such utter garbage. Awful, awful design.
I am positive that Ive approves these designs without actually using them. In
a photo they look "magical" (fk me, how pathetic), but in use they are nothing
but garbage, what a shame.

------
chmaynard
The bio for Natasha Lomas states that she is a senior reporter for TechCrunch.
Reporters don't generally write one-sided opinion pieces like this. TechCrunch
should make it clear that this is not in any sense a news article or a product
review.

[https://techcrunch.com/author/natasha-
lomas/](https://techcrunch.com/author/natasha-lomas/)

~~~
dvfjsdhgfv
> Reporters don't generally write one-sided opinion pieces like this.

First, they do, and they do it often. Second, it's not just a personal biased
opinion without any factual basis.

~~~
chmaynard
Can you name one reporter at The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal who
writes opinion pieces in the paper on a regular basis? Just asking.

------
davemp
This may be a bit off topic, forgive me.

Last spring my laptop running linux finally gave up and I decided to give the
MBP a try.

The pros:

\- MUCH better hardware than anything else on the market.

\- The keyboard is great for me. Leaving mech keys on desktop doesn't feel as
bad as it used to. I haven't encountered any inconsistency this article
complains about with so many words--maybe I'm an outlier.

\- MacOS requires just about zero maintenance.

\- Better consumer software (DRM) compatibility (audible, hbogo, etc).

\- Better creative software compatibility.

\- The OS is pretty well tuned for battery life (I'm sure linux can be, I just
didn't expend the effort).

The cons:

\- Much more difficult to customize. I do miss just how tuned I got my linux
setup with a tiling WM (i3). I haven't lost significant productivity though.

\- Brew is not a first class package manager. Pacman/AUR and apt are a dream
for developers.

\- Boot time is noticeably slower. At least it don't drop you into the OS with
about 1,000 other processes in the scheduler like windows does.

This list is not exhaustive. But I'd not feel bad saying that the MBP is the
best laptop experience. On a side note I also switched to iOS from android and
am similarly satisfied.

For a no fuss, non free eco-system apple is still king despite any recent
stumbles.

------
ksec
In the old days, No one are using Mac for work apart form small group of
Professional Artist. Steve Jobs hated the I.T of Cooperate Enterprise because
they get to decide what their employees should use, not the user themselves.

One of the famous quote from Steve " If we succeed, they will buy them, if we
don't, they won't! It will all sort itself out" [1].

The problem now are Apple products are getting bought no matter what they
make. Businesses are now buying more Mac than ever. Whether we like it or not.
The sales figure aren't showing how we vote with our wallet. The Mac Ecosystem
has morphed itself into a mini PC market where its replacement unit are
sustainable for the Mac business as a whole. There should be now close to
~120M Mac users and an annual 25M Mac sales unit, healthy for a 4 years
replacement cycle.

And it is frustrating because 3 years after this Keyboard introduction and
despite many of its users best effort and cried for improvement. Nothing has
been done. The 2018 MacBook Pro keyboard are still getting double click and
non working keys on Reddit and twitter. ( Sorry I can no longer locate the
thread ). I guess more reports will come in as time pass by. And it is not as
quiet as the MacBook Air Keyboard either.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65_PmYipnpk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65_PmYipnpk)

