
China’s new ‘social credit system’ - doener
https://nypost.com/2019/05/18/chinas-new-social-credit-system-turns-orwells-1984-into-reality/
======
rayiner
The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying
policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people
walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a
cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I
see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has
ever asked me for a bribe in the US, versus what you might see in Bangladesh.
These virtuous behaviors are a better way to live and make life better for
everyone. China seems to realize that and be trying to change culture in a
systematic way. It should probably be done more by carrot than stick, but
there is a a kernel of a good idea in there.

(I should note that Western countries had their own large-scale nearly
universal social indoctrination and social credit systems—organized religion.
Indoctrinating virtuous behaviors is a social function that needs to happen,
the question is how do you do it. Note also that Chinese cities exist at a
scale where the informal mechanisms for social credit break down. If you
litter on my street, people will see you and they will notice. We regularly
talk about neighbors who display antisocial behaviors. In New York? Outside
maybe your condo board there are no such mechanisms.)

~~~
raxxorrax
I live in a very clean city and we don't need social credit systems to handle
litter.

The jump so many people take to encourage strong enforcement for bagatelles is
astonishing.

Greece also has a lot of bribes but if you would know anything about the
culture, you probably wouldn't conclude that you have to liberate the country.
Well, I at least hope so...

You can use the stick of course, but loosing that, all benefits it brought you
would be lost too. And you would have stripped any opportunities to develop
any understanding.

~~~
village-idiot
The Greeks are a fascinating case of the utter break down of social trust.
Greeks no longer trust each other, and the level of corruption and tax evasion
is mind boggling.

I think it’s a false equivalence to compare the belief that a country needs
something fixed and saying that it needs to be “liberated” with the force of
arms.

~~~
StavrosK
> Greeks no longer trust each other

Citation super needed here. Nobody trusts the state because it's corrupt, but
that hasn't changed in centuries. The main problem Greece has is that everyone
puts their own interests above the common good, from littering and double-
parking to appropriating state funds.

~~~
village-idiot
[http://www.ekathimerini.com/232870/article/ekathimerini/news...](http://www.ekathimerini.com/232870/article/ekathimerini/news/survey-
finds-low-levels-of-social-trust-in-greece)

The highlight is that more than 9/10 Greeks disagreed with the statement that
people could be trusted.

~~~
StavrosK
I can't find any numbers on this, or the article source, but I'd be surprised
if this were new. Cyprus went from 13% trust to 10% trust since 1994 and I bet
Greece is along those lines. It's just how Greeks are, so the "no longer" part
isn't accurate.

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adinobro
China currently doesn't have a "credit score" like most of the rest of the
world. They also don't have a national police database so this is their
attempt to do both at once. If you look at the information these two things
seem to make roughly 90% off your score.

Everything else is basically an experiment. Each district is doing it
differently to find out what works the best and that will then be merged into
what the country does. (The scientific process ... using data to inform
policy)

I visited Guangzhou in 2018 and was expecting it to be crazy since it has "the
worst levels of noise pollution in the world"
[https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/mar/08/where-
world-n...](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/mar/08/where-world-
noisiest-city) but it was almost crazy how quiet the city was. After the
report come out they went around the whole city putting in traffic lights and
fixing up all the intersections. There is still traffic but it is now more
organised than any Chinese city I have been to. I ask the locals about it and
they love the cameras, the order and the reduction in noise pollution. They
freely admit that without the cameras most of the other Chinese people would
just not obey the road rules so they are glad that the cameras are there.

I image "social credit" will be similar. Lots of people here just don't pay
bills because there is no credit history and there are no debt collectors
(well not like in the west anyway). If you owe money to the wrong people then
it is better to just disappear but for most companies, they have no power and
they cannot do anything.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _They also don 't have a national police database so this is their attempt
> to do both at once_

China needs a national credit score. And China needs a national police
database. What it doesn’t need is both tied together with a political
component layered on top.

(I think there is a good chance these experiments will backfire. We tried
isolating felons amongst themselves in the United States. It just led to
better-networked criminals who had no choice but to return to crime.)

~~~
adinobro
I'm still on the fence. A lot of the time when you run a credit score you also
run a police check. Not always but often enough. I expect most of the other
stuff will be too much effort to be kept in the score at a national level
unless it is a token amount.

China doesn't have the same incarceration rate that the US has (I don't think
anyone does). I also don't know how long the score will be impacted by a
criminal history.

I'm not saying it will work. I'm just saying that because other countries have
done it one way does not mean that every other way of doing it is
automatically wrong.

As an expat here my current score is "B" but I'll move up to an "A" next year.
I don't know if that score means anything...

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lawlessone
How can they not see treating people this way will push them lower and lower?

~~~
AFascistWorld
Believe it or not, majority of the people actually like the CCP and the
system, they just hate corrupt officials.

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duxup
We've seen with Leica that China is willing to punish outside companies, they
are willing to reach outside China and threaten Uighurs in Australia.

I wonder if we see the social credit system exported / applied to those
outside China under the guise of security or good behavior as a sort of pay to
play deal.

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lelima
Does anyone have visit China and presence the social system in first person?

I've heard that some people like it (Chinese co-workers), as they feel
everyone acting better, but they don't live in China at the moment.

~~~
Gys
I guess they do not realise what is coming?

> '...one of the ways that people can improve their own social credit score is
> to report on the supposed misdeeds of others.'

~~~
johnchristopher
Now, that's Orwellian. As described in the book.

It's not the cameras, the government agents in the shadows or the spying
technology... It's the end result of everyone spying on each other that made
the world of 1984 so inescapable to Winston.

~~~
cyphar
I would argue the key aspect of something being Orwellian is the redefinition
of language such that arguments against the government's position cannot be
made anymore.

The idea of people being spied on by their neighbours in 1984 comes from real-
world examples that Orwell was drawing on at the time (the Hitler Youth and
the purges under Stalin). While it is very dystopian, I would classify it as
being extreme totalitarianism and not Orwellian. Almost all recent
totalitarian regimes I can think of had people informing on their neighbours.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
I would say that having people feel that it is acceptable to inform on their
neighbors is a key element of a proper totalitarian society.

This is why I routinely go off on people when they suggest calling the cops
(or some other external authority) over petty differences. I don't want to see
that kind of behavior left unchallenged let alone normalized.

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pawelmurias
Are the rules of what costs you social credit score available?

~~~
anvandare
Probably (although it makes more sense for them to be vague) but you shouldn't
really care about the paper rules anyway, instead here are the real rules:

Rule One: there are no rules.

Rule Two: you must pretend Rule One does not exist. Instead pretend that there
is a set of clear, objective, and just rules that apply to everyone equally
and fairly; that it is possible to live without ever violating a rule; that no
one is above the rules; that the rules aren't made up on a need-to basis by
the powerful.

Rule Three: arguing against the rules is against the rules.

~~~
corodra
You forgot some people are going to be more equal than others.

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Millennium
In a society that does not put enough pressure on people to grow up and
function, it is tempting to look at this as a possible solution. Coupling it
to government power, though, is an outright horror. Any social credit system
needs to be run independently, by society, not by the state (not least because
of people's unfortunate tendency to remember that there is a difference).

~~~
raxxorrax
Your comment suggest you are from the first world and that your parents did
not put enough pressure on you. Otherwise your reflection upon your wealth
wouldn't result in this tirade.

You have been credited -13 social $$$.

Authorities have been informed. You will also need to clear your room, because
your social credit indicates that it is just a bit too nice for you.

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linyu0219
the media bias score of nypost base on adfontesmedia is only 20,selected
Story. [https://www.adfontesmedia.com/](https://www.adfontesmedia.com/) .
[https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-
post/](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/)
[https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-
ratings](https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-ratings) As a chinese
some mistakes in article 1.the phone bells the ban of trains or flights. all
because the debt which courts can not enforce. all the methods only want you
obey the judgements.

2.alipay the paypal of alibaba, has a system, like the ebay store rates, the
score now can benefit the Second-hand trading. all these system is about
economy. Nothing with political issue.

~~~
linyu0219
political problem don't need score system.

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mrobot
Article reads like an advertisement for his probably shitty and poorly sourced
book.

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bsaul
The only positive side is that china’s regime is comiting suicide with this
system. Seems like nothing was learned from communist russia. Intellectuals
will flee, then top scientists, nobody will trade with them anymore, political
opponents will be sent to camp, until finally it will all collapse under
economical meltdown.

My only concern is that civilians don’t pay a too high price in the process.

~~~
fuzzbuzz
Norway has just landed some major deals for exporting fish to China. And nor
the goverment or the majority of the population seem to bother what China is
doing. Money talks, while human rights are censored.

~~~
bsaul
I don’t think the general public is aware on what’s going on in china in
details. They think it’s still pretty ok. But the direction the country is
taking is pretty clear, and we soon should hear about nightmarish events more
and more. Once one major western country starts taking a public stance and
back it up with actions, the others will follow.

~~~
Consultant32452
The US has just barely started to make some noises with this mini trade war,
which I believe will result in some tariffs remaining in place encouraging
some of our manufacturing to move from China to central America.

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0898
Shouldn't it be "a distopian nightmare"?

I'm sure 'an' is correct since that's the headline the NY Post wrote, but I'm
just curious why.

~~~
johnchristopher
[https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dystopian](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dystopian)

> Relating to or denoting an imagined state or society where there is great
> suffering or injustice.

> ‘the dystopian future of a society bereft of reason’

> ‘the utopian dream that became a dystopian nightmare’

No, I'd say the NY Post made a typo.

