
Culture still doesn’t explain poverty - jamesbritt
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR36.1/steinberg.php
======
Joakal
Some research material I found on poverty:

Don't fall in the poverty trap, you might never get out (Best):
[http://trueslant.com/megancottrell/2009/11/13/dont-fall-
in-t...](http://trueslant.com/megancottrell/2009/11/13/dont-fall-in-the-
poverty-trap-you-might-never-get-out/)

Economics of being poor (Second best): [https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2009/0...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2009/05/17/AR2009051702053.html)

Poor nutrition stunts growth of millions:
<http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/12/2740530.htm>

Life on $234 a week: no fresh food, holidays or visits to the doctor:
[http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lifematters/life-
on-234-a-we...](http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lifematters/life-
on-234-a-week-no-fresh-food-holidays-or-visits-to-the-
doctor-20110104-19f57.html) (You hear all about a dollar a day feeds the poor
elsewhere)

The paradox of American poverty:
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/sep/...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/sep/17/census-
bureau-poverty)

Poverty not Taliban causing war: Afghans:
<http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/18/2746886.htm>

Statistics and pictures of children in poverty:
[http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/poverty-
forces...](http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/poverty-forces-
children-sleep-strangest-places/15237)

Poor people spend 9% of yearly income on lottery tickets:
[http://www.walletpop.com/2010/05/31/poor-people-
spend-9-of-i...](http://www.walletpop.com/2010/05/31/poor-people-spend-9-of-
income-on-lottery-tickets-heres-why/)

~~~
elptacek
I wish I could upvote this comment twice. There's a tremendous amount of data
freely available and it doesn't take a PhD to see correlations between
motivations and consequences.

To this list, I add:

[http://www.amazon.com/American-Project-Rise-Modern-
Ghetto/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/American-Project-Rise-Modern-
Ghetto/dp/0674008308)

Tough read. Worth reading.

------
lionhearted
> nation to confront its collective guilt and responsibility for two centuries
> of slavery and a century of Jim Crow

I reject collective guilt entirely. My ancestry is one of immigrating away
from hardship, my great-grandparents were literally dirt poor, and despite it,
my family has always been very cool and welcoming to people having a hard time
of all backgrounds.

I have no collective guilt, and reject the idea as counterproductive nonsense.
I'll lend a hand if I can be of assistance to someone who has taken
responsibility for their own life, but I think it's dangerous and perverse to
let people like the author saddle you with guilt even if you've never been
part of the problem, and always part of the solution. It's perverse - I
encourage you to accept none of that guilt and shame and bad feelings they're
peddling. None.

------
bokonist
Attention conservation notice - this article is more of a summary of the
debate of over culture and poverty, a sort of "who said what when". I found it
interesting because it mentioned a couple books I didn't know about that I now
want to read. But the article itself hardly makes any evidence based
contributions to the debate. So don't read the article expecting to learn
something about the link between culture and poverty.

------
philwelch
_Culturalists confuse cause and effect, arguing that lack of social mobility
among black youth is a product of their culture rather than the other way
around._

I recognize this pattern. This is what happens when both sides of an argument
perceive at least part of a feedback loop, but neither side perceives the
feedback loop itself.

~~~
jerf
Then both sides yell at each other, both playing the racism card on the other
which ensures that their positions entrench because they can't afford to
listen to those racists over there, governments left without any effective
guidance pick whichever allows them to politic better with no regard for
whether it actually work, which inevitably ends up further feeding the
feedback loop instead of shutting it down due to the second-order impacts
their ineffective interventions have due to the fact they don't consider that
they are working in a domain with a feedback loop instead of simple forces
that don't interact, and it all just gets worse.

I wish more disciplines other than physics and mechanical engineers would be
introduced to the idea that feedback loops are the _norm_ and things that can
be modelled with "simple first-order forces" are the _exception_. This
misconception does so very, very much damage to us.

~~~
forkandwait
The social sciences in the US don't really understand _time_ (yes, it's crazy
but true). They see social dynamics as happening between forces
instantaneously, with all the nuance of whether something happens first or
last completely washed out of their regression.

Oh -- sociologists aren't necessarily as smart as physicists and mechanical
engineers, ...

------
tsotha
I don't buy it. To believe the black family is in such a state purely because
of racism is to believe racism is worse now than it was in the '60s.

~~~
maxklein
In other words, you are saying African-American culture is the sole reason for
all the problems blacks face in the U.S?

I'm sure that's helpful to the 6 year old child when he is given the book that
explains the two different culture choices he has in life, and that he should
select one, and it will automatically become his.

~~~
Duff
The six year old born into poverty doesn't get a choice, regardless of race,
because the chances are very high that he's the son of a single mother who
either has access to a support network (grandparents, aunts/uncles) and works
day and night OR who does little and relies on assistance and disability.

If that child is African-American, circumstances are often crueler. 1 in 9
black men (<http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/28cnd-prison.html>) in the
key fatherhood ranges for 20-34 are in jail or prison.

The cultural issue is that in spite of (or because of) government
intervention, the African-American family is in shambles. Public assistance
essentially requires that able-bodied males get out of the picture, which is a
large contributor to the fact that a two-parent household has been the
exception for several generations. At the same time, society has become more
cruel to the poor -- factory jobs don't exist, you need a car to function in
society, and tax policy encourages the decay of cities in favor of suburbs,
which are segregated by class. (no car, no life in suburb)

Most people in technical fields don't get this. The vast majority are from
middle class backgrounds and got started with computers 'on their own' at
home. There are no computers at home in poor families with a few hundred bucks
a month in income.

~~~
yummyfajitas
If the child is born into poverty, it is exceedingly unlikely that his mother
works day and night. Most likely she doesn't work at all and is not even
looking for work.

<http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2007.pdf>

------
forkandwait
Practice theory (Giddens and Bourdieu are the big authors) is an attempt to
analyze the interaction of "structure" (social racism) and "habitus"
(individual habits taken on because of growing up in a society). The
interaction between class dynamics and internalized culture happens with white
people too.

It would go a long way to elucidating the dynamics here (let me give a small
town white example): white child grows up in poverty, learns aggressive habits
to survive ("habitus") and cultural indicators like a "pimp roll" or bad
grammar, tries to get a job (interfaces with "structure"), fails when he picks
a fight with his boss or doesn't understand work ethic, his boss then confirms
to himself never to hire anyone from that family, family continues to
inculcate itself in aggressive alienated behaviors, family stays in poverty,
rinse repeat...

You don't need racism to screw people over -- in fact, I think debates about
racism hide the real important thing, which is class.

------
drndown2007
I agreed with much of it, until he inferred the " 'repertoire of infidelity'
among low-income men" is because they don't have good jobs.

"Does it matter how they approach procreation, how they juggle 'doubt, duty,
and destiny' when they are denied the jobs that are the sine qua non of
parenthood?"

I think it DOES matter. It represents a level of maturity, respect for others,
and thinking about the future. Those are principles that should be taught, and
are often taught through culture. "It's all hopeless anyway" can explain why
some fall victim to drugs and crime, but it's inexcusable to pull another
person (the girl) or two (her baby) into the net. That is the essence of lack
of responsibility.

Other than this central issue, I agree with much else of what he wrote.

------
elptacek
When I first read this article, so many thoughts crowded into my mind that it
was difficult to compose a coherent response. Since I often take the train
through one of the less nice areas of Chicago, from time to time I catch
myself gazing out at the dilapidated structures and piles of trash and
thinking really hard about how a neighborhood goes from being founded in
enterprise and hope to 'ruination.' I offer the following observations:

1\. Hopelessness perpetuates from generation to generation, being passed from
parent to child. Children are born to young, uneducated parents whose finances
are already stretched to the limit. Not having been properly habilitated
themselves, it is common for these parents to take their frustrations out on
their children in the same way their parents did. So you've got this cycle of
despair and depression that perpetuates across generations.

2\. Certain characteristics of the impoverished class have been adopted by
mainstream media -- particularly advertising media -- as if they are
significant of some culture. Baggy clothing is used as an example. It's a
little known thing that the 'zoot suit' of the from the 1930s and 1940s was
considered a display of wealth. It meant that you could afford to have a suit
made with volumes of fabric at a time when cloth was more dear than it is
today. This display of wealth is consistent with the other characteristics of
'African American culture': large gold chains, gold teeth, everything covered
in diamonds. At the risk of making a pun, this is a gold mine for advertising
media. Think about it, it's an aggrandized display of excess that garners
attention.

3\. These characteristics do not define any kind of real culture. Last time I
looked, there are more impoverished caucasian Americans than there are of any
other skin tone. Careful examination will reveal that the dynamic is more or
less the same regardless of the false delineation of 'race.' How different are
spinning rims from the giant knobby tires on a Ford F250, really?

4\. Which leads me to my final observation, in that I have for a long time
considered identification with any sort of false 'culture' to be a form of
self-segregation. History will show that encouraging a fractured 'hoi polo' is
a very effective and powerful means of sustaining the status quo.

</two_cents>

------
OasisG
There is a limit to what empirical study can reveal. I've always been uneasy
about these studies from either side of the debate because they are almost
always conducted by people who have no other connection to the black
community.

That is, white researchers who live, work, and play among their white peers
are drawing conclusions about a community they (socially) know nothing about.
These researchers often have few/no black friends. Have never been to a
predominantly black party. Never sat down in a black hair salon or barbershop
and listened to the talk of the day.

How we expect accurate analysis that can lead to meaningful solutions is
beyond me.

ETA: Persistent poverty in the black community is the result of many things.
Misplaced and legitimate distrust of white people, misguided government
programs, low expectations, too high expectations, racist laws, stereotypes
about black intelligence, black people's internalization of those
stereotypes...

Anyone expecting a conclusive study that comes down on one side or the other,
or that narrows the problem/solution to any one issue is living a pipe dream.

~~~
Joakal
How about this study from a black professor into why rich black kids still
flunk: [http://www.eastbayexpress.com/gyrobase/rich-black-
flunking/C...](http://www.eastbayexpress.com/gyrobase/rich-black-
flunking/Content?oid=1070459&showFullText=true)

He got his reputation attacked when it was shown that there was a belief that
the school should take care of everything (Parents didn't encourage/supervise,
students didn't care, etc).

~~~
OasisG
I'm familiar with the study and generally give it more weight than other
studies by people who dip in and out of the black community solely to collect
data.

That said, I don't think it's entirely wrong to think that if you send your
child to school for 6-8 hours a day, they should actually come home having
learned something.

I didn't have helicopter parents, my parents just watched for grades. No PTA
meetings, no reviewing my hw, no private tutors... I grew up and went to
schools in the hood, but still got great grades, took a dozen AP/advanced
courses, was in IB, got into an ivy league college, etc. etc.

So there was definitely something going on at school with regard to student
expectations, curriculum, and teacher quality (I had amazing teachers).

~~~
Joakal
Sounds like you didn't read the study. The study showed that some kids thought
education was uncool and 'being white'.

~~~
OasisG
Actually, I read the study some time ago, and am very familiar with it's
findings. My response was to your specific comment here:

"there was a belief that the school should take care of everything (Parents
didn't encourage/supervise, students didn't care, etc)."

I thought that was clear...

------
nazgulnarsil
freetochoose.tv

episode 4 of the 1980's series. specifically the debate section (second half
of each program)

------
patrickgzill
I admit to being quite unhappy about the "collective guilt and responsibility"
line - Steinberg's parents likely emigrated to the USA after 1900, thus they
were never in the country when slavery was happening, so he should know
better.

In my case, one side was non-slave-owning Northerners since 1729 where slavery
was never legal, and the other side of my family wasn't in the USA until 1913.

So how exactly am I or any of my family culpable?

An aside: the first case in Virginia which legalized/recognized slavery under
the courts, was brought by Anthony Johnson, who was able to convince the court
that John Casor was his slave. Johnson, the slaveholder, was himself African :

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Johnson_%28American_Col...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Johnson_%28American_Colonial%29)

------
maxklein
Blaming culture is the Pontius Pilate method - the people who do so think "it
is their choice, they suffer the consequences, so there is nothing we can or
should do".

------
VB6_Forever
If chinese, Indians and Koreans do well is it only because white people
haven't enough resources to keep them down too?

~~~
OasisG
Chinese, Indians, and Koreans have a completely different history in America
than African Americans. Your comment is simplistic and easily falls apart
under basic levels of scrutiny.

Those groups mostly had the luxury of immigrating to America AFTER black
people fought for the civil rights of ALL American citizens. They reaped the
benefits of black struggles while experiencing very little of the viciousness
of racism.

That's not to say that there is nothing to learn from these groups though.

