
U.S. files lawsuits over robocall scams - dredmorbius
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-robocalls-fraud/u-s-files-lawsuits-over-robocall-scams-cites-massive-financial-losses-idUSKBN1ZR2SM
======
blt
Anyone interested in the details of how these scams are pulled off might want
to check out "scam baiting" youtube channels like Kitboga [1]. They use a
virtual machine and pose as a computer-illiterate person long enough to
observe all the techniques. They are also pretty funny sometimes.

I'm astonished by how blatant their techniques are. For example, in the
"refund scam", the caller pretends to be offering a refund for some tech
support contract. The steps are:

\- Get remote desktop access to the victim's PC.

\- Tell the victim that they must log into their online banking account to get
the refund.

\- Use "inspect element" to edit the banking page, making it look like victim
got too large of a refund.

\- Convince the victim that they can't pay back the difference by another bank
transfer, but instead must pay it back in the form of gift cards.

It's outlandish. It goes beyond computer-illiterate victims. The victim needs
to have a diminished sense of skepticism, which can come from age-related
senility but also cultural unfamiliarity, anxiety, etc.

Unfortunately the comments include a lot of casual racism against Indians,
with little awareness of the structural conditions causing these scammers to
exist.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm22FAXZMw1BaWeFszZxUKw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm22FAXZMw1BaWeFszZxUKw)

~~~
lozaning
Do you know what Kitboga and the like do to get themselves targeted by
scammers?

If I ever get calls like this I'll keep them on the line as long as I can as a
kind of game. I get called like maybe once a quarter though.

~~~
ashonalla
Next time you get a call, waste their time a little pretending to be slow and
then do something to make them angry such as explain that you've been wasting
their time and don't approve of their business methods. They'll put you on
some uber-mark list as retaliation, and you'll get a couple of dozen calls
over the next few days.

~~~
kryptk
I was on my way out the door one morning, taking my dog to the vet to have a
lump removed.

I was in a bad place.

The phone rang. I knew I shouldn't pick it up, but I was in a bad place.

It was "microsoft", and they needed immediate payment to avoid legal action.

I am a little ashamed of what happened next but I dumped every curse word I
could think upon that indian guy. It had nothing to do with him really, but I
really let him have it.

Honestly, I feel bad looking back at it.

He may have been wrong, but I was wronger.

He is trying to survive like everyone else.. who the hell am I to sit in the
comfy first world and judge?

~~~
dan-0
> He is trying to survive like everyone else.. who the hell am I to sit in the
> comfy first world and judge?

He doesn't know you from a senile person living in poverty. They'll steal your
money regardless of who you are. There's no moral justification for that. They
are evil.

~~~
celticmusic
hitler is evil, they're just criminals.

------
legohead
Wish they'd do something about internet scammers. One of them got my mom to
pay $150 and she lives off disability. She asks me all the time about these
messages she gets about how her computer is damaged and to call a number. I
tell her not to, but she has dementia and forgets. These assholes are preying
specifically on our old population.

~~~
lotsofpulp
That’s why I gave all my elders iPads.

~~~
RyJones
I don't get why this is downvoted. This is exactly what I did. Reduce the
attack surface as much as possible

~~~
tyingq
I didn't downvote it, but remote control of your PC is only a subset of the
scams. So, helpful to have them use an iPad or Chromebook, but not a panacea.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Defense in depth of the vulnerable. Being a trusted contact at financial
institutions and having access and authority to screen and monitor calls are
also components.

People can be monsters (as the story mentions). Prepare accordingly.

------
mullingitover
There needs to be felony-grade criminal liability for the VOIP providers who
are giving the scammers access to the US phone network. It's funny how many
things are a serious, unsolvable problem until someone is in danger of being
perp walked in front of reporters, at which point it's easily solved.

~~~
baroomba
I don’t know why the US government is entertaining a game of whack-a-mole
here. Just make more than X reports per customer per year of connecting scam
calls an instant non-trivial fine for the phone service provider, where X is
some small value, and let the big telcos figure out how they want to stop it.

~~~
unishark
Whack-a-mole is an important part of their job. But yes simple structural
changes are needed too and would accomplish a lot more.

------
mikeyouse
I've had 3 separate calls today from the "IRS" about an enforcement action
against my social security number. I've been waiting for a very important call
from an undetermined number and it's infuriating to keep picking up to hear
these stupid scams.

~~~
behringer
I don't get many of these anymore. Every time I do I pick up and harass them.
Then I keep calling back for as long as the number works.

~~~
whyaduck
I accidentally called one back a few days ago and incoming robocalls have gone
through the roof. I have no proof that that's why, but I won't rule it out.

On a more positive note, Hiya has been working really well identifying
spam/robocalls, so I don't actually pick them up.

~~~
sershe
Anecdotally, I've noticed a decrease since a few months ago (my call blocker
log shows 1 call in all of January) and I've been picking up, striking up a
conversation for 10-15 seconds then continuing the same with hardcore insults
in a relaxed, deadpan manner, as if we were still discussing their IT
assistance/credit card "refund"/cruise/security system offer. If they start
yelling I just hang up. Some people try to keep selling me their crap, that is
funny; I've got quite a few stunned silences punctuated by huffs and puffs,
and I made one scammer sob, that was great (I guess whatever I told him about
his call center job was accidentally well targeted); so it's also great
entertainment and takes very little time, you can have them on speakerphone
and keep working/reading/working out/etc.

~~~
swish_bob
"Are your parents proud of what you do for a living?" is quite effective.

------
president
The DOJ press release [1] mentions that a majority of these calls are coming
from India. Does anyone know what the Indian government has done to try to fix
the problem? I would assume enforcement should start there.

[1] [https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-files-
acti...](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-files-actions-stop-
telecom-carriers-who-facilitated-hundreds-millions)

~~~
hristov
Why? The US has the prime responsibility for enforcing US laws. And the US
also has plenty of control over the calls, because they have to go through US
equipment before reaching the phone of a person residing in the US.

I mean if they even took the small step to ensure that these calls do not
spoof the caller ID, and appear as coming from India, this would decrease a
lot of the scams.

~~~
kube-system
I'm not familiar with Indian law, but I am guessing that fraud is illegal
there.

~~~
greglindahl
As I pointed out a couple of hours before your comment, there's certainly
plenty of news articles about the Indian police arresting people for call
center scams -- often in cooperation with international authorities -- search
[india call center scam arrest]

~~~
kube-system
I'm aware that they do. I'm suggesting that the answer to "why?" India might
want to address the issue is because their own legal system also prohibits
fraud, and is not simply a concession to foreign interests.

~~~
greglindahl
Ah. That meaning of your comment wasn't obvious to me at all.

------
habosa
I repeatedly get scam calls from a fake "Verizon" that show up on my caller ID
as Verizon on my Verizon phone. When I call back I end up talking to the REAL
Verizon who basically say "oh yeah that thing ... we'll never call you so
don't pick up, that's a scam"

If they can't stop someone impersonating their own name/number on their own
network, we're all screwed.

~~~
Scoundreller
Does Verizon really never call?

~~~
Wistar
I KNOW for a first-person fact that Comcast periodically calls their broadband
customers, at least their business customers, just to "check in and make sure
you are happy," etc.

~~~
Ruthalas
When I was a (reluctant) customer, they'd call about three times a year to
upsell you on more expensive packages.

Marketing spam calls... from the provider was already paying.

------
hinkley
If anyone from the iOS team is reading this, it would be so very cathartic if
I could select a call from my history and "mark as spam" instead of just
"block caller".

Please and thank you.

~~~
annoyingnoob
I want the phone to block made up numbers. There is a North American Numbering
Plan that defines the ranges of valid numbers. I should not be able to receive
an incoming call from any number that is not part of the numbering plan.

~~~
eaandkw
I don't think that would work too well. I have actually received a call from
my own cell phone...on my cell phone. Now that I think about it I should have
answered it to see if it was someone or if it was busy. Either way this is
getting out of hand.

~~~
annoyingnoob
It could be one prong on the fork that stops robocalls. It sure doesn't solve
everything. There is no silver bullet that just stops all robocalls, its going
to take a multi-faceted approach.

------
_bxg1
I don't see how they can do much to take down the groups _making_ the calls.
Where's the negligence lawsuit against the telecom companies allowing it to
happen?

~~~
JadoJodo
> the Justice Department was targeting “U.S.-based enablers” and seeking
> temporary restraining orders to block further calls.

That's precisely what they're doing.

~~~
_bxg1
> The companies named in the suits include Tollfreedeals.com, Global Voicecom
> Inc., Global Telecommunication Services Inc and KAT Telecom Inc.

I guess it's not clear to me exactly what role these companies play in the
process. They aren't AT&T and Verizon. Tollfreedeals.com sounds like it would
be one of the scammers, not one of the phone companies, but I can't tell from
the article.

~~~
btilly
Presumably they have
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interconnect_agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interconnect_agreement)
arrangements with the big telecoms. And by law, the big telecoms have no
choice but to accept that and carry their calls.

If they choose to source calls from scammers, and lie about the phone number,
by the agreement the big telecoms have to pretend to believe them.

The solution is either to change the law, or to penalize scammer enablers. The
government is choosing the latter approach.

I wish them luck, but I am cynical about how this will turn out.

~~~
munk-a
I am glad they're not jumping straight to the first approach - that seems much
shadier to me and a way for the Telcos to start forcing more fees on external
carriers. Giving them the power to cut off call carrying unless the partner
agrees to audits and other expenditures (like customer list sharing) for
"security reasons". There are legitimate issues here, but the first option
seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

------
endorphone
They are going after the VOIP providers, exactly as they should.

Here in Canada we've had years of various frauds -- spoofed calls pretending
to be the government, the police, etc -- and it almost always comes down to a
_single_ VOIP provider.

------
pknopf
I've heard that they can't catch these robocallers.

I call bullshit. The communications company are making money and turning a
blind eye.

Imagine being an engineer, building a communication network, and not knowing
who the hell is on it.

My phone is flooded with these garbage calls. I can't be the only one.

America is drowning.

Someone please fix this shit.

------
Scoundreller
So the complaint says:

> Calls may be traced through these records back to their gateway carrier, and
> thus to their foreign source. The telecommunications industry refers to this
> tracing process as "traceback."

Pg. 10: [https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-
release/file/1240031/downl...](https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-
release/file/1240031/download)

But I thought industry had constantly been telling us that they can't figure
out where these calls are coming from, so they couldn't stop them...

------
hristov
Gee I am glad there is a presidential election coming up so that they are
actually dealing with this. For the last several years robocalls have gotten
so bad that I have stopped answering my phone for numbers that are not in my
address book and now I have to ask anyone that is planning to call me for
their phone number so that I know to answer.

And these have been illegal the entire time. It is not like they had to pass
any laws about it or anything. They just had to get off their buts and enforce
the laws.

~~~
judge2020
The problem is that the majority of the robocalls come from India [as per the
article], the only thing that would get the foreign Government to deal with it
is threatening sanctions which most likely isn't going to happen. The lawsuit
here targets a few select entities, but there are many more and the ones
mentioned in the suit could disintegrate and pop back up tomorrow under
different names.

~~~
hristov
No, that is not the only thing. I already suggested another thing -- force the
phone companies to correctly identify the phone calls as coming from india.
The phone companies know where incoming calls are coming from.

~~~
kube-system
That's still a tough issue. Ever since we had phones that could move around,
phone numbers weren't linked to physical location. Should my Skype For
Business VoIP number change when I'm on client site in a different location?

------
Scoundreller
From the complaint: [https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-
release/file/1240026/downl...](https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-
release/file/1240026/download)

Here's one telecom complaining to one of the defendants:

> “These types of scam calls are prohibited from our network and further
> fraudulent calls from the same customer account will result in termination
> of said customer account. The number of 844-xxx-xxx has been removed from
> your account in order to protect the integrity of our network"

Sooo, it sounds like getting caught with spam calls doesn't even result in a
ban....

> organization sent an additional 6 emails... notifying him... the Resp Org
> was removing eight additional... numbers from the accounts of two
> TollFreeDeals customers

Ugh. No wonder these have been going on for years.

------
stubish
I'm interested in opinions on why only these companies have been targeted.
Would not the US carriers too have been instructed to block calls from the
identified sources? It seems inconceivable that the US carriers can reliably
receive payment for the calls but unable to refuse them. I feel that if these
were political robocalls originating from offshore rather than financial scams
that this would have been addressed far sooner.

Kudos for doing something though. I expect a surge over here if scamming the
US becomes non-profitable.

------
mmhsieh
is there some better way to break apart the criminal gangs that do this? how
about offering large bounties for turning your confederates in? this might be
an annex to the racketeering laws where you get immunity and a huge payday for
ratting out your co-racketeers.

complexity is working against us right now. criminals have 193 national
jurisdictions to move around and hide in. better to give them the complex task
of maintaining 100% loyalty among their ranks at all times.

------
ikeboy
I've been presented with several offers over the last year to renew my car's
warranty as it's expiring soon.

I don't own a car nor have a driver's license.

I usually get through to a person then ask them which of my many cars is
expiring. Somehow they never know, and just keep asking me for the make and
model of my car.

Maybe I should look up some really obscure model to further troll with?

~~~
ct0
Just insure your 1995 honda civic with 300k miles that's been stuck in the
garage because you are not legally allowed to drive because of vision loss. I
was amazed that they didn't care about my condition, and pushed me up to a
senior warranty specialist that hung up on me when I asked " and where are you
located sunny" in my oldest voice possible. Waste as much of their time as
possible.

------
joering2
Looks like a civil case, yes? Any lawyer or semi-lawyer here could share their
thoughts as of what the penalty could be?

------
Hello71
official link: [https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-files-
acti...](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-files-actions-stop-
telecom-carriers-who-facilitated-hundreds-millions)

------
ycombonator
[https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-
release/file/1240056/downl...](https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-
release/file/1240056/download)

------
munk-a
Should I read the specific focus here

> The Justice Department said calls facilitated by “gateway carriers” [...]

as a bit concerning for all the easily accessible VOIP entry points to the
phone system that aren't currently run by one of the big Telcos?

~~~
tracker1
Oh, it's full of holes.. not only that, but there's no verification system for
even caller id data... That's why you'll see a lot of scam calls looking like
they're from your areacode and prefix.

------
ycombonator
Would passing a legislation which requires these gateway carriers to verify
the billing addresses of their customers through their banks(IRS scammers)
force these companies to filter out most of them ?

------
google234123
I suggest that all those involved get jail times equal to the amount of time
they caused their victims to waste!

------
smn1234
new Netflix show "Jamtara: Sabka Number Ayega" show how this scales...
frighteningly easily

------
pcurve
Unless ceo and execs are sent to jail for 10-25 years, this will continue to
happen.

------
btilly
By the time the lawsuit wends its way through the courts, all that will be
left is a shell and a secret bank account in the Cayman islands that we cannot
discover.

And the scammers will be on to something new.

But at least I won't be getting calls in Chinese any more...

~~~
imglorp
First, they're often offshore already, and second, they often use spoofed
caller id's. The upshot is they might not even need to hide.

~~~
fortran77
The spoofed caller ID thing really needs to be fixed. Our office number ends
in a nice round number XXX-XXX-8000 and several times a day we get calls back
saying "WHY DID YOU JUST CALL ME" and they don't believe me when I tell them
we didn't and somebody's spoofing caller id. Spoofing Caller ID to someone
else's number shouldn't be possible. (But it's very easy. I can enter any
phone number I want in our phone system here!)

~~~
magicalhippo
> Spoofing Caller ID to someone else's number shouldn't be possible.

Right, this is why we have certificates for websites. I want to know it's my
bank I'm logging in to. I'd also like to know it really is my bank that's
calling...

------
burnJS
Still waiting for my knee brace.

------
Jam-B
Good.

------
kwhat4
Took you long enough.

