
SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf] - jbaudanza
https://sfgov.org/bdappeal/sites/default/files/Item%2013%2C%20Appeal%20No.%2017-183%20%40%20180%20Montgomery%20Street.pdf
======
Lukeas14
I once spent an hour sitting in the SF planning office on Mission and it was
the most eye opening experience in regards to the city's building issues. Most
of the discussions are done in the open so you can hear the conversations
between the planners and people looking to get permits. Almost every convo
started with "...so your permit looks good but I won't approve it until you
make [some irrelevant, arbitrary change]". They would look through historical
Google Maps images and find temporary backyard sheds, windows that had been
replaced or door frames that were painted and refuse to issue until these
changes were reverted.

I understand the need of a planning department to enforce safety codes, plan
large construction like the Salesforce tower and make traffic decisions. But
every discussion I heard that day was a planner making completely subjective
decisions that, in my mind, shouldn't be anybody's business but the building
owner. No wonder we have problems building enough housing when so much effort
is exerted dealing with such minor design decisions.

~~~
oppositelock
It's not just SF, I sat in on some such meetings in Mountain View. It's petty
tyrants in positions of power showing the plebes the extent of their
authority. One of them even acknowledged that everything was up to code in a
restaurant, but they wanted changes made anyway due to subjective aesthetics.

~~~
kapuasuite
And somehow this all passes Constitutional muster...

~~~
Decade
Sadly, the racist Supreme Court under former President Taft ruled that the
city does have pretty much unrestricted ability to interfere with what people
do in their homes and businesses, as a police power. Euclid v. Ambler (1926)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_of_Euclid_v._Ambler_Re...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_of_Euclid_v._Ambler_Realty_Co).

~~~
masonic

      the racist Supreme Court under former President Taft
    

It was a 6-3 decision, and one of the dissenters was, in fact, a Taft nominee.

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jbaudanza
This was one of my favorite places to go work in SF. It was a cafe that was
optimized for people working.

I was disappointed recently when I found out they had shut their doors
permanently. I was surprised too, because they always seemed to be busy.
Apparently, they had an ongoing dispute with the zoning department over
whether they were a "cafe/restaurant" or "office".

~~~
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
Which one pays more in taxes? Of course it’s that one then!

~~~
earlINmeyerkeg
We need to consult the chart!

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blueyes
This decision is a real shame. There is real value to a space like Workshop
that provides food and business services in a social space in the Financial
District. A decision like this, which does not take into account the
consequences to SF's everyday life, is one of the thousand tiny cuts the city
inflicts on itself to no purpose.

~~~
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
The real shame here is that the city is basically setting up a “ask permission
before trying anything” environment. Quite antithetical for a location that
prides itself on innovation.

~~~
scarejunba
SF's government has always been like this and it's infuriating. But at the
same time, it creates opportunities because there's nothing like regulation to
create exploitable places.

It's a pity in this case because I really liked Workshop Cafe. I worked nearby
and when we went by it felt like any other cafe, though a bit quieter. Also,
the area right outside it was very pleasant for it having been there. This is
definitely a loss for the feeling of that corner.

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zip1234
So what good do use based zoning rules do? I can see prohibiting heavy
industrial or chemical in residential areas but outside of that it seems like
more harm than good.

~~~
chrisco255
They increase property values for existing property owners in high-demand
areas by preventing innovative mixed-use implementations. Forcing supply of
office space or residential area down, while demand stays high, causes prices
to increase.

~~~
zip1234
I guess people might think that while making such policies but I would say it
isn't for certain that prices increase. They may actually decrease the value
of properties since they cannot be used for more productive purposes. It also
increases cost since more transportation (cars) are required, which means more
parking, which means less available land for useful things.

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wtvanhest
I used Workshop Cafe a little and liked it, but I agree with the planning
commission.

All they were asking was for 2/3rds of the space to be available to the
public.

They could have made 1/3 reservable. They could have charged for wifi in the
other 2/3rds or came up with other ideas.

~~~
sigstoat
does SF only allow fancy restaurants to take reservations for 1/3rd of their
tables?

~~~
coderintherye
The letter noted two distinct facts vs. typical restaurant reservations: 1)
You have to pay to reserve at Workshop Cafe (unlike typical restaurant) 2) The
reservation can be for an unlimited period of time (again unlike a restaurant
reservation)

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m463
I think this is what clarified it for me:

> _A good analogy for this principal is a movie theatre. Customers must buy a
> ticket to enter (i.e. reserve space), and the principal use is the movie
> theatre. Customers may purchase food and beverages in the theatre, and may
> consume them in the actual theatres. Such food and beverage sales often
> outpace actual ticket sales. However, the Planning Code does not consider a
> movie theatre to be a restaurant simply because its customers may, and often
> do, purchase food and drink that is prepared on-site._

(principal is your pal)

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ortusdux
I am a big fan of the Japanese zoning system. I'm sure it has its flaws and
that there are arguably better systems, but it seems much better than what we
currently have in the US.

[http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-
zoning.html](http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html)

~~~
Newtonip
Here is the original article in French if anyone prefers reading that version:
[http://kchozeurbaine.blogspot.com/2014/03/zonage-
japonais.ht...](http://kchozeurbaine.blogspot.com/2014/03/zonage-
japonais.html)

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cobookman
It has meeting rooms, desks,...etc.

Not really surprised the zoning department ruled it was co-working space vs a
cafe:

[https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x808580795532c08...](https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x808580795532c085%3A0xca181db15a6404c!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOfBojExn9spMCA9-Wi0irX4kltP5LIxEpSnTCw%3Dw252-h160-k-no!5sworkshop%20cafe%20sf%20-%20Google%20Search!15sCAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipNbDqxoQc84KKJl0G4GPIq6i1kkzryaiKOPIMYh&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3qdXs5-_mAhXwHzQIHcvKC50QoiowCnoECA8QBg)

~~~
gharding
Although I have never been there, but I don't think the street view makes your
point. If you take the monitors out that cafe does not look any different than
any other rather run of the mill cafe with stock furniture.

I wonder if this is a bit of a perception is 9/10ths of reality thing where
the fact that the furniture looks too "office like" with the separated meeting
table with an wall hung TV and other office-feel things; rather than cafe-like
with exposed wood and pipes, Edison bulbs, copper stuff, monitors that are
built into an enclosure instead of free standing, etc. the bureaucrats found a
probably already biased/influenced position and finding easier to rationalize.

I know that may seem silly to some, but if you have ever worked with or in a
bureaucratic and especially a political office, you will surely know what I
mean when I am describing the use of any and all excuses and tiniest little
reasons to rationalize a preconceived or forgone conclusion. It's really a
major scourge on every single aspect of government and leads to these kinds of
decisions.

My theory is that it largely stems from the fact that bureaucrats, including
most politicians these days, simply have no real accountability or
consequences for their actions and decisions, so some tiny technical violation
can invalidate everything else on precept.

~~~
cobookman
They charge per hour for `workspace`:
[https://www.workshopcafe.com/pricing](https://www.workshopcafe.com/pricing) &
[https://www.workshopcafe.com/meeting-
rooms](https://www.workshopcafe.com/meeting-rooms)

A true cafe doesn't charge you an hourly seating price. Its somewhat a grey
area though as a cafe might have an `order` minimum/hour or kick someone out
who hasn't bought something recently.

------
languagehacker
This is a fair interpretation of zoning laws, but I don't think it respects
the reality of most coffee shops. What I liked about Workshop (other than
being one of the only places in FiDi you could get Stumptown for a while) was
that it was explicit about the real trade going on in many coffee shops.

If you're spending more than a half hour at a coffee shop, you're there to
work. You're playing this game where you're trying to figure out whether
you've bought enough coffee not to look like a complete mooch. You're also
hoping the free Wi-Fi is up and working, and that nothing is going to happen
that will disrupt the work you're doing.

Workshop offered a great cafe menu, but most importantly offered assurances
around seating, quiet spaces, and high-quality Wi-Fi. It was a hybrid model,
and one I don't think there are decent laws established for them. This is a
bummer, and probably a bad application of by-the-book zoning in a city where
those same laws are being used to prevent way more important things like
improved housing density.

But that's SF for you, I guess.

~~~
brudgers
They could have applied as a conditional use. It exists exactly for good ideas
that aren’t quite obviously good. For uses which are good or bad for a locale
depending on the specific details of the project. That’s not San Francisco,
that’s pretty much every urban area in the US.

------
buss
If you're tired of shit like this, you gotta vote for people who want the city
to be more tech-friendly and have sensible rules. In particular, vote for me
;) [https://buss2020.org](https://buss2020.org)

~~~
Ohn0
You can't ban the ban's... they're the favorite way to virtue signal your
higher morality from the top down.

~~~
asveikau
I have to say, I am really tired of right wingers claiming every SF or other
government or political policy they don't agree with is "virtue signalling".
It is a lazy ad hominem which I don't find the least bit convicning.

~~~
true_religion
Virtue signaling can be a lot of things. It can be insisting that a bike be
painted shale blue to prove that you have a trendy sense of aesthetics.

On a side note, I’m surprised you are calling out the right wing for being
anti virtue signaling. In my opinion, people who name themselves the Moral
Majority are the biggest virtue signallers of them all.

~~~
Ohn0
It's one thing to wear a pin on your sleeve, but it's another thing to use the
force of gvt to attempt to enforce morality, by banning things deemed "not
good" like vapes, private cafeterias, plastic bags, straws, etc..

On a side note, trying to put a label into one or two buckets is very short
sighted.

~~~
asveikau
Disposable plastic is not an infinite resource, and its cost to the
environment is not priced in the item. What is the problem with a good faith
effort to reduce consumption?

Nicotine is addictive, last I checked a carcinogen in its own right (even if
better for you than other cigarette additives), and there are reports that an
entire generation is starting life addicted to it more than any previous
generation. So if I think that's concerning, I am just trying to signal my
virtue?

Can't be that I came to be concerned about either case for good reasons.

What I see a lot of on the internet lately is that people become unable to
argue points like this and pull out the "virtue signalling" label when backed
into a corner. Or like you I guess, you decide to mock "virtue signalling"
without understanding how a person comes to these opinions in good faith.

~~~
Ohn0
Opinions. It's one thing to have them, it's another thing to force them on
society.

If you want to reduce plastic consumption, just don't use it. But I bet you
use a phone, computer, desk, eye glasses, wallet, clothing, etc., all made
from the environmental destroying resource.

If you don't like addictive carcinogens, don't take them. Or is it your job to
save humanity by banning it for everyone, or people of a certain age?

I have plenty of concerns, but I don't dare force them on the masses because
of my own efforts of good faith. Change starts with you.

But here's a question... if plastic and nicotine and maybe other things like
alcohol are so bad, why not just outright ban them (prohibited) instead of
just limited to reduced consumption? It's b.s. legislation meant to signal
virtue to the constituents. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

------
wtracy
The issue seems to be the combination of more than 30% of the floor space
being dedicated to reserved seating, and the Cafe charging for those
reservations.

What's more surprising to me is that an area zoned for retail restaurants is
not zoned for office use. I see shop fronts in strip malls converted to ad-hoc
office space all the time.

I assume this is a zooming regulation specific to SF? What would be the
rationale behind it?

~~~
jschwartzi
I would guess that it's more about antiquated attitudes about how cities
should be centrally-planned and heavily segregated by use. Some zoning control
is necessary to keep chemical plants and steel refineries from blowing up in
your backyard, but the notion that there needs to be clear delineation between
"office use," EG clerking, and restaurant/bar use is why central business
districts are all crime-ridden dead zones after about 7 pm. And it's also why
there are traffic jams between 11am and 1 pm where I live.

~~~
wtracy
Seeing "office use" be more tightly restricted than general commercial use
still seems strange to me.

I can understand restricting _retail_ use in areas otherwise zoned commercial
if the area can't support traffic from, or doesn't have enough amenities for,
the general public.

But what impact would an office have on a neighborhood that a restaurant
wouldn't?

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IIAOPSW
Who do I vote for if I want a workshop office like this to be legal?

~~~
fourstar
Not Nancy Pelosi, since it’s her daughter who is the one that is the lawyer on
this case.

~~~
matthewowen
Pelosi Law Group were working _on behalf of_ Workshop Cafe in this case, not
against them.

~~~
fourstar
My mistake. Thanks for pointing this out.

------
pmoriarty
It's interesting to hear all the positive comments here about Workshop Cafe,
and at the same time in previous threads there have been many negative
comments about WeWork.

Can someone who has been to both and has differing opinions about them share
how they differ?

~~~
kjksf
Negative WeWork comments were about their business model, not their product.

I worked out of both WeWork shared space and at Workshop Cafe.

At WeWork you pay $350 per month (price varies) and get access to a shared
space that is arranged like an open office (shared tables / desks). This is
for the lowest plan, you can get dedicated office for more money.

Workshop Cafe is (was) arranged like a coffee shop, but with more seats. You
pay per hour (forgot how much, but not much) for access to a dedicated table /
desk. They have a better wi-fi than most coffee shops and they have outlets at
each table.

It's also a coffee shop (you can buy coffee, tea, basic food).

They were both great for what they were offering.

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3fe9a03ccd14ca5
Zoning laws are so backwards that it borders on parody. Can we get a state-
wide referendum to eliminate all but the most important zoning regulations and
then let the cities grow naturally?

~~~
peterwwillis
How do you think zoning laws came about? We had no zoning laws, and then
cities grew naturally, and then we had zoning laws. They exist as a result of
real problems in the world. Now, some of those problems were definitively
wrong [1], and we should clearly have a way to _review, modify, and revoke_
zoning which is bad for society. But throwing them all out and doing nothing
else is a quick way to welcome them right back.

[1]
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning_in_the_United_States#Ra...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning_in_the_United_States#Race-
based_zoning_ordinances,_1910%E2%80%931917))

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proc0
The same assholes driving up rent and making homeless situation worse.

------
maxcan
Yet another act in the SF Government's ongoing performance art attempt to turn
everyone into hardcore libertarians.

------
wdb
Nothing worse then having cafe shops being packed with people working on their
notebooks taking whole tables and not allowing people to enjoy them to drink
their tea. I wouldn't mind if they would forbid notebooks in cafe shops like
Starbucks

~~~
newnewpdro
They allow it because they make more money having consistent regulars who buy
multiple items throughout the day, often entire meals.

It'd stop if it weren't profitable.

~~~
thrill
"If it is profitable, it will be regulated out of existence", to paraphrase
Ronald Reagan.

------
cft
San Francisco has become a place for junkies and Google sociopaths. Creative
people have left and remaining creative people are leaving. It's a very bad
place to start a company now (not to confuse starting a viable business with
raising venture capital).

------
linuxftw
Unlimited governmental power. It's what democracy is, it's what Californians
want.

------
creddit
Hello, Interesting Innovation? I'm Outdated, The Draconian Zoning Law. We have
some things that need to be discussed.

