

Republicans' new Web site not exactly what they hoped it would be - Flemlord
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/25/AR2010052504396.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

======
grellas
Great political ideas come, not from committees or from random samplings of
the uninformed or semi-informed masses, but from intelligent and forceful
leaders who can think them through thoughtfully, who can articulate them in a
way that resonates with people, and who can set out an agenda to carry them
into effective action. None of this is easy to do and it takes exceptional
people even to make a credible stab at it.

There is no need to bring in modern politics to illustrate this. Any glance
through the Federalist Papers will quickly show to any informed reader that
one can take very difficult and highly contentious topics (how to form a
country, how to divide its power among different groups, how to limit its
power decisively in furtherance of broader principles such as natural law) and
make well-reasoned and even brilliant arguments about them in ways that compel
people to action. The people who made those arguments were steeped in a
lifetime of ideas and imbued with a strong philosophy about the principles of
right government, and it showed in what they wrote - even when those writings
essentially took the form of propaganda pieces (which is really what the
Federalist Papers were).

You won't get this from a website such as the one featured in this piece. You
won't get it from Democratic Underground either. Leaders are leaders and hacks
are hacks. The world offers the latter in abundance but good leaders are a
precious few. This is not to say that normal, day-to-day people can't have
good ideas or be intelligent in a political sense. It is to say that the
intelligent articulation of such views won't come out in a mass setting and
that is why political parties are ultimately driven by insiders (who are, one
would hope, effective leaders) and not by soliciting random views from the
street.

~~~
hugh3
_Great political ideas come, not from committees or from random samplings of
the uninformed or semi-informed masses, but from intelligent and forceful
leaders who can think them through thoughtfully, who can articulate them in a
way that resonates with people, and who can set out an agenda to carry them
into effective action._

Great leaders? Resonating with the masses? That sounds more like a primer on
how completely awful (in the gas chamber/gulag/killing fields sense) political
ideas come about.

Most of the tolerable governments of the world have come about from a process
of centuries of gradual refinement and consensus-building. Great leaders tend
to screw things up more often than not. Great Britain made its way from
monarchy to liberal democracy on its own and without the help (and
occasionally with the hindrance -- I'm looking at you Mr Cromwell) of any
"great leaders". The US constitution was just a somewhat refined offshoot of
the British system.

~~~
a-priori
I agree. For a democratic system that is completely at odds with the US or UK
one, take a look at Switzerland. While in most ways it operates as a republic,
for their executive branch, they don't have one head of state. They have the
Swiss Federal Council, which meets weekly, in secret, and has not been
replaced since it was formed in 1848 (individual members have retired and been
replaced in that time, of course).

They also have direct democracy, where any citizen can trigger a referendum if
they gather enough signatures in a certain amount of time.

This sounds like a recipe for disaster, yet Switzerland has one of the most
stable governments and most prosperous economies in the world. It works
because they are stubbornly conservative (little-C conservative, in the sense
"if it ain't broke, don't fix it") and slow to change. In general, it works
for them, even if it has some anachronisms. Women only got suffrage in 1971,
for example, and there's no guarantee of religious freedom (e.g.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret_controversy_in_Switzerl...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret_controversy_in_Switzerland))

tl;dr - there's more than one way to run a country, and it's better to err on
the side of not changing what works. But if you take this approach, you have
to be mindful that just because you suppressed certain peoples' rights in the
past doesn't mean you should in the future.

~~~
mpf62
The prohibition of minarets does not have anything to do with religious
freedom. You can build as many mosques as you want and you are free to pray to
anyone you like. It's only the minarets (the towers on top of the mosques)
that most swiss people dislike because they just don't fit in the landscape.
Of course, this prohibition is an overreaction (there are only a handful of
minarets already and building restrictions are strict in general), but I can
understand that people think that "Heidiland" isn't supposed to look like ...
e.g. Istanbul.

~~~
stcredzero
So "Postmodernism" is really a conservative idea?

~~~
mpf62
Probably not in general, but concerning architecture I would tend to say yes.
Isn’t it an important part of “postmodern architecture” to melt
premodern/traditional designs with modern ones? So, conservative ideas/values
seem to have some influence.

------
jokermatt999
Honestly, this kind of depresses me. I'd love to see an honest dialogue
between government and citizens with well thought out ideas and respect from
both sides. However, that's just not happening here. Between the massive
influx of immature trolls and the Poe's Law style comments, it seems doomed
from the start. The server creaking under the massive weight of traffic
certainly isn't helping either. I think a system like this could work with
some better moderation, and perhaps a better start to it, but this one doesn't
appear to have a future, unfortunately.

Edit: I'd also like to add that this article is terrible. The seem to be
taking glee in the fact that trolls deliberately poisoned the site, rather
than thinking about how this could have been useful. I put the blame as much
(if not moreso) on the people trolling the site as I do the nutjobs adding
sincere comments.

~~~
NathanKP
The site was doomed from the moment 4chan heard about it. When are people
going to learn that you can't expect online polls and discussions to escape
the trolls? There isn't much that can be done about it either or else people
would complain about "censorship".

------
hugh3
They seem to have underestimated the speed at which trolls can ruin
everything.

This, of course, is why we can't have nice things.

~~~
pavs
After reading some of the comments on their website I have hard time
distinguishing trolls from republican talking points.

Also Poe's Law: <http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Poes+Law>

~~~
jerf
"After reading some of the comments on their website I have hard time
distinguishing trolls from republican talking points."

Look, can't we come together under the banner of mutual brotherhood and
fraternity and agree that Internet trolls can't be held against _any_
political view? Can't we all come together and agree that whatever our
differences, at least we can look down our noses at _that_ lot?

Do you really think it would be that different if the Democrats had put up the
same site? Or Libertarians, or Labour?

The stupidity of raw internet conversation transcends political boundaries.

~~~
yummyfajitas
If anyone doubts it would be different if the Dems made such a site:

"We must not stop until the American people win the war on Health-Care [...]
Our leaders today are nothing short of Angels. “Gods Elect” put in power by
God for his people and his world."

[http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/dalecourtney?p...](http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/dalecourtney?page=1)

~~~
pyre
I think the point that was trying to be made is that it seems like the
majority of Republicans (or at least the majority of the vocal ones) hold
views that border on self-satire to the point where you almost can't be sure
if someone is trolling or serious.

I think that you were be hard-pressed to find someone that believes that the
majority Democrats believe that God put their leaders into power. Especially
since (at least in my opinion) a majority of America views the Democrats as
being associated with Atheism/science (e.g. Creationism vs Evolution).

~~~
jerf
Sorry, I totally feel that way about, say, the economic theories favored by
Democrats, or the things that boil down to conspiracy theories in which Wall
Street is 110% responsible for every bad thing that ever happened economically
(and a good deal of non-economic things) while the pure-as-the-driven-snow
government is blameless in all ways, which by the way is pretty much the
official platform of the Democratic Party.

(Don't tar me as a Republican. Tar me as a libertarian.)

Of course you're hard-pressed to find a Democrat that believes an internet-
troll-republican position. You need to be looking for one that holds an
internet-troll-democrat position. If you need help finding them, I suggest the
reddit politics board or the comments section on the Huffington Post. Or the
comments section on any major newspaper that has comments.

~~~
jbooth
Uh, pretty sure most democrats are much more nuanced than the description in
your first graf there.

Also, unless you were outraged for the entire Bush term of office, and I mean
really outraged to the point of voting for Kerry in 2004, you're not a
libertarian, you're a Republican. Sorry.

~~~
yummyfajitas
I'm pretty sure most republicans are much more nuanced than the morons who
post on americaspeaksout.com.

I know it's convenient to believe that your political enemies are all stupid
and evil, while your allies are mostly pure, good and smart. Go ahead and feel
that way if it makes you happier.

~~~
jbooth
Sorry man, but I didn't piss in your oatmeal this morning and I certainly
didn't say any of that stuff.

I complain about oversimplifications and demonization and you come back at me
with even more of it?

------
superdude
I can't tell if this is real or a satirical article.

"Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.), who created the program, said that to get
software for the site, 'I personally traveled to Washington state and
discovered a Microsoft program that helped NASA map the moon.'"

~~~
lukev
Upvotes to whoever writes "The Ballad of McCarthy" commemorating this epic
quest.

~~~
SkyMarshal
Lol, I was trying put into words how silly the man is for thinking that
travelling to Washington is in any way talking-point worthy. You nailed it.
Epic quest, lol.

------
michael_nielsen
The article is amusing but unfair - it's mostly just selected quotes from
contributors to the new site. One could write a similarly far out (and
amusing) story about HN or any other social site, by judiciously selecting
from amongst the troll comments.

~~~
asolove
Uhm, did you visit the site? I browsed two pages and saw only one suggestion
that had both punctuation and was not obviously a troll.

~~~
moultano
Sort by interest and you get ones that are at least more literate.
[http://www.americaspeakingout.com/browse/questions/in/job-
cr...](http://www.americaspeakingout.com/browse/questions/in/job-
creation?sortkey=interest)

~~~
amalcon
Even many of these seem a little naive. Take this one:

 _PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION: Require each bill to identify the specific
provision of the Constitution that gives Congress the power to do what the
bill does._

So, people really think that it will help to protect the Constitution to write
"Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3" on every bill? The court has historically
interpreted the commerce clause in such a way that everything is justified by
it. The hard part is getting the court to stop doing that, not making
Congresspeople write some extra stuff on the bill.

~~~
byrneseyeview
It reveals dependencies. People might be concerned if, e.g., 90% of government
spending was valid if and only if the commerce clause had a particular
interpretation.

Companies disclose if a single customer represents even 10% of their revenues,
because it's a risk factor.

~~~
amalcon
Looking at that would be a great way to create some really perverse
incentives.

"Let's spend more money on the armed forces and post office, to make the
portion that comes under Clause 3 appear smaller."

A lawyer I spoke to told me that there's a question regarding federal law on
the bar exam every single year, asking "From where is the power to create X
law derived in the Constitution?" It's a different law every year, but the
answer is always the same: "The commerce clause."

------
lukev
This is hilarious. I seriously had to check the address bar to see if I was
reading the Onion.

------
asolove
Although the troll comments are funny, the seriously-meant ones are even
funnier:

"both dems and repubs need to gain the trust of the american people both sides
have lied to us robbed us and i think both sides are about the money not
freedom most of them dont know or care what is in the constitution im not
saying all of them but most of the politicians"

Especially the attempts at rhetoric:

"my grandfather told me if you could lie and steal you could be a politician
they were write"

------
mcav
When I visit the site, I get this:

 _Unavailable_

 _A very high volume of Americans are speaking out right now. Please wait a
moment and try again._

~~~
Flemlord
Of all the comments on the site and in this thread, this is the one that made
me laugh.

~~~
lurkinggrue
Yesterday all you got was .net error pages.

------
0nly1ife
Cut them some slack. Managing user generated content is a difficult task. I
hope they resolve these issues and bring us one step closer to using the
internet to improve democracy.

~~~
metamemetics
I hope they DON'T resolve these issues and bring us one step closer to using
the internet to improve democracy.

Moderating comments to handpick what are 'acceptable' views is not democracy.
The popular masses trolling a joke of a party to its disintegration, is.

------
myaccount
Please vote my idea up on the site:
[http://www.americaspeakingout.com/questions/3795/america-
s-n...](http://www.americaspeakingout.com/questions/3795/america-s-number-one-
problem-lobbyists-they-corrupt-the-political-system-more-than-anything-else-
solution-make-all-p)

America's number one problem: Lobbyists. They corrupt the political system
more than anything else. Solution: Make ALL politicians wear a "Nascar jersey"
to work. Every politician should wear clothing with corporate logo decals. The
bigger the payoff amount, the bigger the decal.

------
ImFatYoureFat
I would love to know what element of this website is used in mapping the moon.

------
gyardley
Not a bad idea, but not the best execution. A shame.

Interesting - I looked at their WHOIS records to see who actually built the
site, and while that wasn't obvious, I did find the site's domain server on
sale at Sedo for $300. I wonder how long that goes unpurchased.

------
celticjames
New GOP site looks good to me:
<http://hammerandsteele.com/?u=http://xkcd.com/personal/gop/>

------
asolove
"Winsome" is not an adjective I have ever heard applied to the design of a
website. I need to use that more often.

~~~
zephjc
It would seem this site is more in a losesome state

------
emehrkay
They're trolling for troll-attention. They know the more trolls that come and
make funny posting the more attention it will garnish.

..at least I hope that is their plan.

Anyway, this site doesnt need software that maps moons, I'm sure it could be
done as a weekend project with [your favorite set of frameworks] and some red
bull.

~~~
hugh3
Also, the trolls will get bored after a few days and move on, but the site
will still be there long after 4chan has forgotten about it. It's _possible_
that a genuine community will show up to use the site in the way they
intended.

~~~
emehrkay
If the site hasnt changed policies after it is used in its intended manor, the
re-tolling would be that much better.

------
metamemetics
Some of the current top posts for each section:

 _Job creation:_

"We should invent and patent more colors. Like fuchsia, but not that because
it's already been invented."

 _Fiscal responsibility:_

"Nationalize production of "Arrested Development" and reap the profits of the
show owning."

 _American Values:_

"Did Glenn Beck assault a young girl in 1990?"

 _National Security:_

"Americans die in hurricanes and tornadoes. It's time to declare a War on
Weather."

 _Speak Out:Start Your own Debate:_

"1500 characters maximum is hardly enough to explain the extent of failure
that this website has enabled."

------
j_baker
I have a feeling the thought process behind this site was something like this:

1\. Have an idea for one of those newfangled web 2.0 things. 2\. Hire someone
to write it. 3\. ??? 4\. Profit!

As it turns out, there's more to it to create a successful social media
site...

------
mgkimsal
Apparently it's not quite battled-tested yet:

<http://gyazo.com/b206847fc013a9985f43cdaa7d066f9b.png>

------
avgarrison
I spent only a few minutes on the site, and after trying to sort "Ideas" by
Total Votes, I got this lovely, classic ASP.NET error page:

Server Error in '/' Application.

------
justinph
They had to go to Microsoft to get this? Reddit is open source. But I'm
guessing they see open source as anti-american.

~~~
bartl
Don't you get it? Reddit is pro-Obama, so _obviously_ they couldn't use this
_communist_ rubbish.

True patriotic capitalists use proper respectable Microsoft software for
everything.

(note for the humor-impaired: I'm poking fun at both the typical Tea Partyer,
and the the pointy-haired types (see Dilbert) that get to decide what software
to use.)

~~~
eru
I guess you have to try harder to get your humour across.

------
noonespecial
They should have just started a thread on 4chan. It would be faster I think.

------
djb_hackernews
Headline should have been: New website can also help NASA map the moon.

------
killdashnine
"A 'teacher' told my child in class that dolphins were mammals and not fish!"
a third complains. "And the same thing about whales! We need TRADITIONAL
VALUES in all areas of education. If it swims in the water, it is a FISH.
Period! End of Story."

wow

~~~
hugh3
If you believed that was a real comment then You Have Been Trolled.

And here was I thinking "Man, these trolls are _way_ too obvious, they should
have gone with something more subtle".

------
RyanMcGreal
I have a sneaking suspicion that Poe's Law is in full effect here.

------
sriram_sun
Somebody take screen shots of all these comments for posterity!

------
fondue
Republicans make website, get trolled hard, news at 11.

------
QNguyen
Did they choose not to use open source software because it was socialist?

