
Burner Phone - rubyrescue
https://www.burnerphone.us/
======
rdegges
Hey all, I'm one of the creators of BurnerPhone, and just wanted to leave a
comment with a few facts about the product.

We weren't really planning on launching this thing so quickly (we planned on
making improvements to the site, etc. and launching in the next couple of
weeks) -- but since all the press about the NSA / phone stuff came out it
seemed like a good time to put our MVP online.

Anyhow, we're basically trying to provide our users with a secure-as-possible
communication device that allows them to remain as anonymous as possible. Yes
-- the government can definitely collect call data and SMS data, but by using
different devices and SIM cards (phone numbers) you can abstract away all but
the most difficult to track details: your voice, your writing style (sms
messages).

Using a BurnerPhone allows you to make phone calls and send SMS messages that
won't be linked back to your by your telco billing records.

In regards to how we work:

\- These phones come with unlimited talk and text for 30 days, nationwide
coverage.

\- We piggyback off of tons of US carriers, so depending on where you're
located, you'll be connected to a different cellular network.

\- You can recycle these phones (we have a lot of plans with this in the
future).

I'd love to get some feedback from you guys, really respect HN and your
opinions.

~~~
nostromo
You should accept bitcoin so that the bank and the NSA won't have a list of
all of your customers.

edit: I see in another comment that you're adding this
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5840440](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5840440))

Also, if you want to prevent tracking at the USPS -- ship the phones in
unmarked boxes with postage purchased with cash. Don't use a return address
and randomize the post-offices drops you utilize to send the packages.

~~~
Justsignedup
Fun problem:

When the phone is turned on, the phone communicates with cell towers. This can
approximate your location. To be truly anonymous (as much as possible) you
should have the phone cut ALL communication with the cell towers. When you
make the call, the antenna turns on, call is made, antenna turns off.

Additionally if the phone can be configured to use wifi for phone calls, then
ideally you decrease the possibility of the location being tracked.

If the phone is on in theory authorities should be able to pull records from
the cell companies and track every place the carrier of the phone visited.

For added shipping security always ship from a VERY high volume shipping
place. This way its hard to isolate your package, but not impossible.

~~~
jd007
If you turn the antenna off when not making a call, how would you be able to
receive incoming calls?

~~~
AnthonyMouse
Using the existing phone network? Probably not easily.

I think the ideal way would be to make the device a passive satellite
receiver. Then when a phone call arrives for your device, the satellite
broadcasts a message which your device can passively receive which tells it to
wake up and get on the cell network.

In theory you can do this with cell towers (it's how pagers work -- you may
even be able to reuse the existing infrastructure), but in that case you
either have to know somehow which tower is in range of the device (which
obviously leaks the device's general location) or you have to broadcast on all
towers everywhere (which, as wireless bandwidth increases, becomes
increasingly practical since the incoming call message would have nearly
trivial length).

~~~
eyko
Then if they get hold of your number, they can ping your phone so that it
comes up on the radar, and track you hourly for example.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
That would be pretty obvious given that it would cause your phone to ring
every hour. Also, they could do the same regardless by just calling you.

------
nikcub
Why doesn't someone just built a Tor hidden service that is an interface to
the Twilio (or similar) API? Sign up with Bitcoin, get a phone number and then
send/receive SMS and send/receive calls using DAP/getUserMedia (html5 mic +
audio) in a web browser.

Using a physical cell phone still leaves a trace of the purchase, shipping,
physical call location, cell site pings, etc. Plus in a lot of jurisdictions
it is now a legal requirement to verify identity and adress with issuing phone
numbers.

Using a Tor hidden service (+VPN, etc.) I could be anybody anywhere in the
world. Less bits figured out.

edit: apologies if this is hijacking the thread

~~~
foobarqux
Latency would make voice impractical.

~~~
millerm
In this case, wouldn't it be acceptable? I mean, if we stay in the context of
a burner and security is the main feature, would it matter so much if it was
like basically talking on a half-duplex voice call? Again, if the main goal is
security and anonymity, would it matter so much if the conversation wasn't as
fluid as a 'regular' call?

------
runjake
I'm curious about two things:

1.) How do you comply with E911 laws that require addresses for the end user?
Whatever carrier you deal with will likely terminate any contracts it has to,
upon discovery.

2.) How does the shipment process work? You may delete all records of the
purchase transaction, but you're still shipping via UPS/FedEx/USPS/Etc and all
of those maintain records on source/destination addresses and various other
shipping details (size/weight/approx cost).

~~~
jarek
Yeah, this is a joke. "Send your address to a stranger over the internet so
they can ship it from a warehouse employing a small number of large
corporations so you can be anonymous!"

Pay-as-you-go phones bought in a grocery store are more "burner" than this.

------
CanSpice
The government said "trust us" too. I'm not entirely sure why anybody who
wants to buy an untraceable phone would go to a website run by an unknown
person to buy one. There are so many ways that this could go wrong for the
phone purchaser.

I'm thinking either this is a spoof site where in a week's time you'll just
say "Ha! Look at all this private information you just gave a complete
stranger!" or it's a government-run honeypot.

~~~
rdegges
Not sure what I can do to prove this to you since we just launched and don't
have much of a history, but I'm happy to answer any questions.

I'm a programmer at a telephone company currently, and have worked in the
telco industry for a while now.

I have no government affiliations at all.

~~~
monkeynotes
> I have no government affiliations at all.

Nice try CIA ops.

~~~
dsl
It would be the FBI, actually.

------
cdjk
Other people have commented on the payment issue - I'm glad you're looking
into bitcoin.

I'd be worried about delivery, too. I know you say you destroy customer
information immediately, but if I'm truly paranoid I'm not going to trust that
statement - I'd rather pay someone on craigslist to buy a bunch of prepaid
phones for me.

I'm just brainstorming, but would it be possible to set up some sort of
physical tor/mixmaster style forwarding that would keep the final destination
of the phone from ever being known to you? I'm not entirely sure how that
would work, and it would probably be open to abuse, but it's an interesting
thought.

Also, could you consider posting something like rsync.net's warrant canary?

[http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt](http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt)

It's not perfect, but it is a nice touch.

~~~
fatman
Regarding delivery - Maybe something like a BufferBox paid for with
cash/bitcoin? Does this exist?

~~~
tjohns
I think they're called "vending machines". ;)

~~~
cdjk
A bitcoin-accepting vending machine would be very cool, but that requires that
you live near one. Setting up shipping seems a lot easier than creating a
nation-wide vending machine network.

~~~
EvanKelly
Why would you prefer bitcoin over cash for anonymity at a vending machine?

~~~
cdjk
Good point. Managing cash for a vending machine with high-value items seems
like it might be a pain. I know there are various ipod vending machines
around, but I assume most people use a credit card for those. But I suppose
feeding some 20s isn't too hard.

~~~
EvanKelly
I didn't think about high value items. That's a good use case for bitcoin at
vending machines.

------
jcromartie
> Every time you make a purchase we'll package and ship your order, then
> destroy all transaction records in our system. We make it impossible to give
> or share your information with anyone.

Come on. There is absolutely no way you can convince anybody of this fact. It
is impossible (and I mean this in the mathematical sense) to prove that you
have no record of how it was purchased or where the phone went.

~~~
rz2k
Since all mail has to be sorted to reach its destination, and there's little
reason to expect that shipper and recipient data is given an expectation of
privacy it probably does not even matter whether the company keeps records.

I suppose it is safe to assume that it would be unknown which SIM card is
inside of the package, but having a list of recipients in a given area code
and merely noticing when SIM cards came online in that area would be somewhat
of a give away.

It seems like the phone would just encourage anyone performing surveillance
that you are more likely to be communicating something they'd find
interesting, and therefore they might spend more resources on looking at these
customers.

I think it serves the public good when more people communicate in ways that
can not be traced or listened in on, but I don't think it serves specific
customers of this service if they have concerns about their own anonymity, and
might be doing things like disclosing information about official corruption.

------
guyht
Whats your moral stance on your business? There are a lot of legitimate uses
for your product, but its also (for obvious reasons) very attractive to people
involved in criminal activities. Will you be putting any measures in place to
counteract this?

For example, lets say you were regularly getting orders to a foreign country
which is known to be a hot spot for terrorism. Then, you have the police
knocking on your door, because there has been a major terror threat in a US
city, and they need to track the terrorists phones.

I can guess the answer, but just want to make the point there are usually 2
sides to an anonymous service like this.

~~~
obviouslygreen
This just isn't a useful question. I can understand where it comes from, but
"this could be used for bad things" puts it in exactly the same camp as cash,
cars, anything heavy enough to throw at someone, and pretty much... well,
everything.

If the service were "weapon specifically designed to kill large Rhinoceri and
then instantly sever their horns" or "phone that will encrypt and forward only
narcotic-trafficking-related conversations," this point would be valid.

------
jgalt212
I think it's still better to walk into a random Walgreen's and purchase a
burner there with cash.

~~~
Terretta
The the "strip search prank call" suspect (fictionalized in the recent movie
_Compliance_ ) was located through video footage of him purchasing "anonymous"
phone cards with cash:

 _Learning that the call had been made with an AT &T calling card... they used
the serial number of the calling card used to make the call, and learned that
the card had come from a different [Panama City] Wal-Mart store than the card
used for the Massachusetts calls. Using Wal-Mart's records of the second
store, the cash register, and time of the purchase of that card, the police
were able to find surveillance camera video of the transaction. Unlike the
Massachusetts investigation, which had gone cold when surveillance video
failed to show the purchaser because the cameras were trained on the parking
lot and not the registers, the cameras at the particular store where the card
used in the Mount Washington call was purchased were trained on the cashiers._

 _The buyer in the video was wearing a correctional officer 's uniform for the
private security firm Corrections Corporation of America. Video and stills
from both Wal-Marts were compared and the same man was seen entering and
exiting the Wal-Mart at the time of the earlier purchase. The police used this
footage to produce a front-and-back composite image of the suspect, and
subsequent queries to the private correctional company's human resources
department led to the identification of the buyer as David R. Stewart._

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_prank_call_scam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_prank_call_scam)

~~~
jgalt212
I'm sure there are burner retailers that don't have security cameras on 24/7
like Wal Mart. Or even if they do, they may recycle their tapes more quickly
than Wal Mar would. Buy some burners now--wait six months until
activating/using.

------
marcamillion
I know this has been said before....but I just couldn't help but chuckle at
the irony of a "completely anonymous" phone, only able to be bought with a
credit card :|

~~~
rdegges
This is 100% due to us launching earlier than expected (with all the press
about the NSA stuff).

We're implementing bitcoin purchasing right now, will have it ready by
tomorrow.

Sorry for the inconvenience =/ I realize it's not perfect, but we're working
on it ^^

~~~
marcamillion
I know...you guys made a good call. Launching in the midst of this storm is
very clever.

I wish you all the best!

------
bradleyland
Anything but cash/bitcoin leaves too much of a trail. Just because you destroy
your records doesn't mean your merchant bank does. Nor does it mean my bank
will.

~~~
rdegges
We're adding bitcoin right now (will be available in the next day).

We launched this early due to press on the subject, which is why it's not as
polished as we'd like it to be =/

~~~
elliottcarlson
I would add a note about that now so people know it is coming and you don't
lose a potential customer because they saw the site today and had the same
opinion of the parent comment.

------
pkulak
If you need to coordinate your criminal activities all The Wire-like, why not
just use some form of encrypted communication using the phone you already
have? Maybe just get one for criminal activity only to be extra safe? Aren't
all these problems solved by some 2048-bit encryption? I guess the phone
company can see which IP you're making a connection too, but that doesn't seem
like much. Why do we have to waste this much perfectly good hardware just to
be anonymous?

~~~
nitrogen
_I guess the phone company can see which IP you 're making a connection too,
but that doesn't seem like much._

It may not seem like much, but it's actually everything. Social network
analysis gives a significant amount of information about peoples' activities,
even if those activities themselves are encrypted.

------
aetch
Isn't this service just taking advantage of the situation at hand? This is
like offering a 'premium' burner phone, but burner phones aren't supposed to
come with nice unlimited plans and etc.

You could get a Tracfone with some starter minutes for $10 and a 50 minute
card for $10 with cash. The 50 minutes actually becomes 100 minutes due to
Tracfone's 2x minutes promo.
[http://www.tracfone.com/phones.jsp](http://www.tracfone.com/phones.jsp) Yes,
this isn't 'unlimited' usage, but the whole point of a burner phone is to use
it for one time communication, NOT for normal, regular comms over a 30 day
period. You're just asking to be tracked if you did that anyway.

Seems like you would just be paying for a burner phone in a pretty box and
pretty service when you could go out and buy one yourself.

Also, the burnerphone.us whois indicates that it was registered less than a
month ago in May 2013.

------
hgfischer
What's going on in USA? Why does you care so much about privacy?

You look like crazy paranoid to me, as if you all are trying to hide something
from a criminal or a law enforcement.

I bet there are lots of North Americans complaining of this PRISM an Verizon
thing, but at the same time is using Foursquare and every cool internet
location-based mobile app you also created.

There is a dictate in my country that says (in other words) that "If you are
innocent then you have nothing to fear."

This BurnerPhone service would be used only for criminals in my country. I see
no use for innocent people. This is too much even for people that have
something non-criminal action to hide, like cheating your spouse.

If you have fear of your government watching you, then it's better to move to
another country or live like a monkey in the forest. Burn your social security
card and go live as if you didn't exist for your government.

~~~
pyvek
Ah, the old `if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear` fallacy.
I'll leave you with this - [http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/19/debunking-the-
dangerous-noth...](http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/19/debunking-the-dangerous-
nothing-to-hide-nothing-to-fear&#x2F);

------
noonespecial
These types of services might just turn out to be the "killer app" that pushes
bitcoin out of collector space and into currency use.

People will already be committed to going out of their way to obtain extra
privacy. Figuring out how to use bitcoin for the transaction will seem like
little additional effort.

------
steeve
Sorry to say but you still have to pay by credit card (huge trail), and even
if you use bitcoin, you still have to have the phone delivered somewhere, and
to someone.

~~~
rdegges
That's correct -- it's definitely not perfect, but we're working on it.

One of the things to keep in mind, however, is that even if you order this
phone and use it, it's highly unlikely that any organization will be able to
track your phone within a 30 day period -- and even if they do, and they
realize the phone is a BurnerPhone (unlikely), if they come talk to us we have
no records of which phone was sent where, or even where things are shipped.

They'd have to query the USPS, and then they'd have to speculate as to which
phone went to the person in question.

~~~
natrius
What happens when you get a National Security Letter that demands both longer
data retention and your silence?

------
drglitch
So what happens when the government (or IRS) persuades you to not destroy
transaction logs with a $5 wrench?
[http://xkcd.com/538&#x2F](http://xkcd.com/538&#x2F);

~~~
rdegges
We're committed to this product, not only for our users, but also for
ourselves.

We value our privacy HIGHLY, and wouldn't be open to selling out. We'd much
rather just close down the company than destroy our core principles.

~~~
rolleiflex
If there were some sort of a dead man's switch in your service (
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_switch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_switch)
), this would be a lot more believable.

~~~
cakeface
I'm confused with how a dead man's switch would be useful in this scenario. If
the company is persuaded to keep the transaction logs linking sim cards/phones
and credit card numbers/addresses then how would we know? I don't see that as
being fixed by having a dead man's switch.

~~~
bap
At that level of 'paranoia' / privacy concern you might as assume this is an
elaborate honey-pot. An unlikely scenario but certainly the safest assumption
from a privacy perspective.

------
davidmr
Out of curiosity, did you consult with attorneys before launch? I'm completely
unqualified to answer the question, but I would think there's a possibility
you could land yourself in a bit of a pickle if you shipped one that was later
impounded in a law enforcement operation. It seems clear that you wouldn't
have known it would be used illegally, but that wouldn't stop someone from
ruining your month.

(Congrats, of course)

------
forgotAgain
Go to Walmart and get a $35 phone for cash. _Includes a 30 day service plan
card with with 1000 minutes, 1000 text and MMS messages, 30 MB data_

------
DocG
Although, I do see potential for this, pay with credit/debit card? It will be
traceable who do I call, also it will show up in my card records. Also, there
is going to be some record where it was sent. It will be probably sufficient
for most users, but not all.

I have it a little bit better, but not perfect.

For 15 euros I will get phone + prepaid card. I can buy it from any local gas
station or kiosk or mall, I can have some homeless to buy it for me.

Prepaid over here means, it is as simple as old school phone cards. No name,
no bank accounts, no contract, no credit/debit card. Cash and goodbye.

I can also allow roaming just by sending sms to specific number(if it is not
allowed), it will work almost everywhere(although the prices will be pretty
high)

(source(sorry, translator don't work with https
[https://www.elisa.ee/et/Eraklient/konekaart/konekomplekt/eli...](https://www.elisa.ee/et/Eraklient/konekaart/konekomplekt/elisa-
konekomplekt))

------
steveinator
Two bullet points from the site:

\- Unlimited talk and text for 30 days.

\- 16 hour talk time.

I'm confused. Which is it?

~~~
rdegges
16 hour talk time is the amount of battery life you'll have if you're on the
phone for 16 hours nonstop talking.

You get 30 days of unlimited talk / text, so if you talk for more than 16
hours on the phone you'll need to recharge using the charging cord that comes
with the phone.

Sorry for the confusion there.

------
rmason
If this company were not in the USA I might have confidence in their product
being truly anonymous. All they've done is serve as a concentrating function
for the NSA. You're far better off buying a phone for cash from a different
7-11 each month.

Perhaps this might be a business opportunity for the North Koreans?

------
confluence
Whenever I see something like this come up, my brain automatically screams:
Honeypot!

Services such as these attract the paranoid and the criminal in large enough
amounts that they make great ways to catch criminals without having to do any
leg work whatsoever.

Sell burners, track all of them via GPS/monitor all calls/use microphone to
record real life conversations at random times then use said data to bring
people down.

The same could be said for bitcoin exchangers, former liberty reserve
exchangers, seed boxes, private VPNs and a host of other "secure" services.
I'm not positively stating that any of these kinds of services are actually
honeypots, but it probably should be something that one considers before using
them for more nefarious purposes.

Makes you wonder what you can really trust. Probably nothing.

Honeypots all round! No wait, it's a trap!

------
zhemao
Is it really possible to completely anonymize an online purchase? Like others
have said, the sheer act of buying something online which must be shipped
somewhere is going to leave some trace. Unless both money and phone are
transferred via a special courier (preferably in one those suitcases that you
handcuff to yourself), a dedicated surveillance effort would be able to
discover the customer's identity eventually. I'm sure you guys are well-
intentioned, but, honestly, if I was paranoid enough to need one of these, I
sure as heck wouldn't be comfortable buying it online. I'd probably just buy a
cheap pre-paid cellphone from a corner store using cash.

------
refurb
How does this work? I thought the gov't required identifying information to be
gathered when selling a cellular phone?

What are the regulations?

If the gov't wants to track down the owner of a phone, what do you do? Just
say that you don't have that information?

~~~
rdegges
Correct -- we literally keep no information here, so it's impossible for us to
give information away.

~~~
refurb
OK, but I wonder, are you breaking any laws?

I see two possible outcomes of this business model:

1\. The gov't catches wind, demands you keep proper records and you say "no"
so they shut you down. 2\. The gov't comes to you asking for identifying
information for a customer, you say "no" and they shut you down.

I honestly don't know that much about it, so I can't claim that these two are
the only possible outcomes.

Can you provide more details? What are the regulations? Do you have a plan if
the gov't comes knocking?

------
coherentpony
Do all the phones look the same? Because if so, "If you'd like to recycle your
Burner when you're done using it, just throw it into any cell phone disposal
box (these can usually be found at office supply stores)."

Ummmm.

------
daenney
Why is this $75? The cheapest phone around is about $20, the Nokia 105 comes
to mind for example. Add some dollars for the calls, texts and your margin $75
seems a bit steep.

~~~
chadcf
That's what I'm wondering, how is this any different than going to a local
store and paying cash for a burner Net10 phone? You can get them for $15 and
they include enough minutes for most people to get through a month, and if you
don't use a CC or store loyalty card there is no way for anyone to tie the
phone to you.

~~~
nja
What about the security cameras at the store?

~~~
chadcf
Wear a hat and sunglasses if you're worried about it. Pay a bum to go in and
buy it for you. Wear a ski mask!

I'd be far more worried about the credit card transaction and ISP log from
buying this online than I would be about a camera in the grocery store. Of
course you could TOR the browsing or use a library computer. And maybe
eventually they'll add support for non credit card payments that can't be
tracked. But throwing on a hat and some sunglasses and heading to your
neighborhood 7-11 seems a lot easier (and cheaper).

------
slg
Can someone provide a few examples of legal use cases for this type of thing?
I understand people who want to protect their personal information, but these
are going way out of their way to actively conceal their personal information.
I just don't know why that would be a priority unless you are trying to hide
something. I am not usually in the "you have nothing to fear unless you are
hiding something" camp, but these seem pretty extreme.

~~~
ricardobeat
Does it still sound "pretty extreme" after the news on PRISM?

~~~
slg
Yes. The answer to this scandal is not making it technically harder for the
government to get our information. I would compare it to DRM/piracy issue.
Most of us on HN would agree that creating new, more onerous, and more
difficult to crack DRM is not the answer to piracy. You instead convince
pirates that it is more ethical, easier, or less risky to purchase something
than pirate it.

The general citizen is not going to win a spy game against the NSA. Our only
hope of preventing something like this from happening again is to put legal
penalties and precautions in place to make sure that the government does not
overstep its bounds. Using burner phones isn't going to accomplish anything.

~~~
jlgreco
Rendering the government unable to read your communications is always a better
solution than convincing them to promise that they will not. Technological
solutions allow the individual to have control over trust.

Burner phones are not crypto, but they are a good idea for similar reasons.

------
rubyrescue
Needs to be payable in bitcoin?

~~~
rdegges
One of the product creators here -- we're working on this :) We ended up
launching the site today (a week earlier than expected), due to the press on
the topic.

We'll have bitcoin support by tomorrow.

------
tocomment
Great idea! Thanks for making this. So what happens after 30 days, is there a
way to recharge the phone minutes?

~~~
rdegges
Thanks! After 30 days, you can purchase a new SIM chip from us directly if
you'd like -- but the existing SIM chip will be completely unusable.

Right now our site only sells the phone + chip together, but we can sell both
the hardware phone and SIM chips separately as well (3 day, 7 day, 14 day, and
30 day SIM chips).

Due to our early launch (this is our MVP), we don't have those advertised on
the website yet (although, if you email us, we can arrange something).

~~~
josscrowcroft
I recommend maybe doing a deal, phone + multiple SIM cards ($x each per SIM)

Then we could order in bulk, use a temporary address, and have enough for a
year's anonymous talking without needing to make another order..

------
gesman
I think it impossible for you to prove that you're not an outlet setup by the
government monitoring service.

------
chatmasta
Where should we ship this to?

------
chc
The old adage goes, "Don't mine for gold — sell pickaxes to the miners."

I guess the modern adaptation is, "Don't deal drugs — sell phones to the drug
dealers."

------
ck2
Except the NSA already gets all visa/mastercard transactions directly from
their network.

Destroying the transaction on the vendor side is useless.

------
bluedino
In 24, Jack only uses a phone once and then smashes it. How anonymous is a
phone I've been using for a whole month?

~~~
marquis
Some good advice posted: [http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/05/listen-up-
future-deep-t...](http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/05/listen-up-future-deep-
throats-this-is-how-to-leak-to-the-press-today&#x2F);

------
nvr219
What, no sign in with facebook button?

------
rdegges
Damn, it looks like this article just got banned from the front page of HN. =/

~~~
cakeface
I still see it on the front page.

------
zachgersh
Irony that you need to use a burner laptop to order your burner phone?

------
virgoguy
even [https://www.burnerphone.us&#x2F](https://www.burnerphone.us&#x2F); is
informing google (and a few other sites) when you visit.

------
briancaw2
Hasn't anyone here ever watched The Wire?

------
skaevola
SV begins monetizing the drug trade.

------
tocomment
Who did your web design? I love it.

~~~
citizens
[http://themeforest.net/item/kameleon-premium-business-
produc...](http://themeforest.net/item/kameleon-premium-business-product-
template/135337?WT.ac=portfolio_thumb&WT.seg_1=portfolio_thumb&WT.z_author=ChrisMooney)

------
xmpir
Nice timing concerning PRISM

------
alinspired
unfortunately i have to question how long this operation can survive in US

------
jfmercer
+1 for Bitcoin

------
fatbat
Is it biodegradable?

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rscale
If anybody needs true, total anonymity it's worth reading this paper before
buying any cell phone:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3607247/pdf/srep...](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3607247/pdf/srep01376.pdf)

The paper shows that 95% of cell phone subscribers are personally identifiable
from VERY little spatio-temporal information.

Another issue is that an upstream vendor could easily provide the government
with the phone IMEIs and SIM IMSIs that they supply to BurnerPhone, without
disclosing this to BurnerPhone. This would create a pool of phones that are
self-identified as high-value surveillance targets.

If I was in charge of identifying miscreants for a nasty regime, I'd also
watch for SIM card changes (an IMEI whose IMSI changes on a regular basis),
and I'd especially look for cliques of handsets that showed the same SIM-
changing behavior. As such, I can't help but wonder if swapping SIM cards
might generate unwanted attention.

~~~
at-fates-hands
"Methods The dataset. This work was performed using an anonymized mobile phone
dataset that contains call information for ,1.5 M users of a mobile phone
operator. The data collection took place from April 2006 to June 2007 in a
western country. Each time a user interacts with the mobile phone operator
network by initiating or receiving a call or a text message, the location of
the connecting antenna is recorded [Fig. 1A]. The dataset’s intrinsic spatial
resolution is thus the maximal half-distance between antennas. The dataset’s
intrinsic temporal resolution is one hour [Fig. 1B]."

This seems kind of sketchy to me considering how CDMA networks currently work:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_division_multiple_access#S...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_division_multiple_access#Spread-
spectrum_characteristics_of_CDMA)

"These systems were designed using spread spectrum because of its security and
resistance to jamming. Asynchronous CDMA has some level of privacy built in
because the signal is spread using a pseudo-random code; this code makes the
spread spectrum signals appear random or have noise-like properties. A
receiver cannot demodulate this transmission without knowledge of the pseudo-
random sequence used to encode the data. CDMA is also resistant to jamming. A
jamming signal only has a finite amount of power available to jam the signal.
The jammer can either spread its energy over the entire bandwidth of the
signal or jam only part of the entire signal."

~~~
rscale
It's likely my own ignorance, but I don't understand the concern you're
raising. What's the relationship between frequency-hopping spread spectrum
technology and communication/antenna records?

~~~
at-fates-hands
"Each time a user interacts with the mobile phone operator network by
initiating or receiving a call or a text message, the location of the
connecting antenna is recorded"

CDMA allows multiple towers to handle network traffic. Implying there's only
one tower handling the traffic seems flawed to me. I could be wrong though.
This was the issue I was trying to bring up.

~~~
noselasd
Yes, you're wrong. There's a data link from the phone to one tower when
setting up a call or similar - the ID of that tower is communicated to the
core network. You can handover to another tower if that signal becomes
stronger (e.g. you're moving) - this'll just give you more information, i.e.
the fact that the user was moving, and you can now narrow down the location
further to the parts where the two cells overlap in coverage.

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yoster
What a ripoff. I can get a cheap throwaway phone with unlimited minutes/text
for less than $50. I also can buy it with cash at any mom and pop cellular
phone shop. I don't need I.D. and I can use any fucking name I want. This
phone needs a fucking credit card and an address to deliver. Might as well put
up a fucking sign saying dumbest criminal in the world! Leaving a paper trail
all over the damn place.

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youngerdryas
How easy is it to set on fire, I love the smell of burning electronics.

