

Redditor Explains Why Apple Continue Making Frail Power Cables - kmfrk
http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/hvuhg/apple_why/c1yuah6

======
squidbot
My reply, I think it may not have made reddit as I've never posted before:

I'm calling BS on this whole thread. The reason for the breakage is in the
green circles, not the red ones: <http://i.imgur.com/EYSo5.jpg>

The 2007 cables had small buttons on the sides that you had to press to
disengage the connector from the device. This meant you had to pull on the
body of the connector to remove it. The 2009 design removes the buttons and
the catches, which means the plug can be removed by yanking on the cable. It's
the yanking on the cable that is causing the problem in the image, you can
tell because the wire sleeve is pulled back from the connecter rather than
split horizontally, which is what would happen if it was a strain relief
issue. Yanking from the cable rather than the connector affects all cables.
Apple connectors typically fit very snugly in their sockets (which is a good
thing generally) which means it takes more force to pull them out,
consequently pulling out the wires as well. It's not a problem unique to Apple
by any means. Ever have a pair of headphones that start to crackle when you
touch the connector? Same problem.

Apple cords do indeed have strain relief, and they are fine for typical use.
They may not hold up as well as a longer relief when bent at high angles
consistently, but generally they do the job they need to do when sticking out
the side of a device.

Though I like the button design, if I were to guess why Apple removed the
buttons, is because I'll bet people were still pulling on the cords to try to
remove the connector and doing far worse damage to cord and/or socket due to
the mechanical connection between the two.

~~~
pak
How do you explain the same split occuring on the Magsafe connectors? Those
are designed to pop right out if you yank them by the cord, so very little
strain is going to be put on the wire sleeve. I've seen a lot of Magsafes
split in the exact way depicted in the picture.

~~~
miketomasello
In my extremely unscientific personal test, the iPod data cable actually came
out of my iPhone with _less_ force required than attempting to unplug the
MagSafe cable from my laptop.

Of course, that wouldn't be the case when the pulling isn't completely in-line
with the socket (although you can exert quite an amount of strain on a MagSafe
cable by pulling it out sideways). I think it's too simple to assume that
MagSafe wouldn't suffer from this problem.

The explanation given by the parent post rings true for me, certainly I've had
these kinds of splits in plenty of cables with traditional "strain-relief" on.
I think I'm going to stop unplugging things by tugging the cable. :)

~~~
AlexandrB
That actually matches what I've observed. Namely that after 2 years of heavy
use my magsafe has not had any issues with the connection.

I always remove the connector by tilting it first, instead of pulling. In fact
I think there was something in the manual about this - though I can't find it
at the moment.

~~~
kwis
My manual says: When disconnecting the power adapter from a power outlet or
from the computer, pull the plug, not the cord.

But it doesn't say anything about tilting.

~~~
Groxx
It's a magnet. Shearing / levering is easier than pulling. You're doing it,
even if you're not thinking about it, just because you're not pulling
_perfectly_ straight. Intentionally tilting it away makes removing it a lot
easier than doing so accidentally, though.

------
adamesque
Except, there are strain relief features built in to Apple power adapters.

Power Adapter: <http://cl.ly/0r2n2S2z1b3K0L1E0R3t>

LED Cinema Display Power Adapter: <http://www.cl.ly/3i1B3R142q0S25223q2U>

These may not be adequate, but clearly Apple industrial design has taken a
pass at the problem. Anybody have photos of older power adapters to see if
that sheathing has always been there?

~~~
sil3ntmac
The OP is referring to Apple's iPhone power/usb connector cable, as seen in
this picture: <http://i.imgur.com/yAywo.jpg>. The dock connector strain relief
is decidedly weaker (I have had two or three break on me personally) than
other Apple products.

One thing that is interesting is how Apple's Industrial Design team, mentioned
in the post, affected the design of the new Macbook power adaptors (like the
one you linked to, <http://www.cl.ly/0r2n2S2z1b3K0L1E0R3t>). The old ones had
the cord coming out perpendicular to the laptop. I liked that design a lot
better than the new style, which is a bit awkward to plug in and leaves you
either:

1\. With a cord facing out the back of the laptop, then (probably) looping
around 180 degrees and back to the power outlet, or

2\. With the cord running parallel next to the laptop, completely blocking the
ethernet port.

Obviously neither of these solutions is streamlined or Apple-like, so I wonder
if the ID dept made the trade-off of a parallel connector with minimal strain
relief, or a perpendicular connector with built-in strain relief.

~~~
raquo
Early Macbook Airs are to blame for that weird power connector. Look:
[http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/3/macbook-air-
ha...](http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/3/macbook-air-hands-
on-6.jpg) The industrial design division probably wanted a thin bevel on all
sides, and there is no way a classic connector would fit between the macbook
and the table and retain the magsafe feature.

Latest macbook airs no longer need this hack and I think Apple will shift back
to normal power connectors sometime soon because these metal ones are no good
for anything except possibly for those monitor-to-laptop power cords.

~~~
gmatty
i actually prefere this connector because on the classic on if I and sitting
on the floor crosslegged with my laptop on my lap the old cable pops out.

~~~
erikpukinskis
This. Also if you're reading with the computer sideways in bed, this puts
crazy strain on the old adapter, but the new adapter is just fine.

------
hollerith
Two other places where aesthetic form trumps function in Apple keyboards and
Macbooks: (1) arrow keys are much narrower (especially on the 11-inch Macbook
Air) than on most notebooks (probably because unlike most notebook makers,
Apple decided against breaking the "clean line" along the edge of the keyboard
closest to the typist). (2) the axis on which the two halves of the
"clamshell" (the bottom half and the screen half) turn is in a different place
than on most notebooks. In particular, on a Macbook, the axis is between the
top and bottom surfaces of the bottom half of the clamshell whereas on most
notebooks it is about .3 inches (whatever is just enough to allow the two
halves to fold all the way together) above the top surface of the bottom half
(and more or less in line with the plane of the screen whereas on Macbooks it
is about .3 inches from this plane). The probable reason for this choice is
that it gives Macbooks a distinctive look even though the way the other makers
do it seems more practical to me (because the notebook is more secure when it
is not resting on a flat horizontal surface and because the probability of
disaster is lower if the notebook is open on the floor and someone catches the
screen half with their foot). Since I do not have the patience to create
diagrams, I will stop here even though I realize many readers probably did not
get what I mean from just this textual description.

~~~
wtallis
As I recall, back in the PowerBook days, Apple touted how their new hinge
design reduced the overall height of the notebook when open. As compared with
the previous PowerBooks (which had much thicker bases), the titanium
PowerBooks had a _much_ lower profile, without really sacrificing anything
except the ability to bend the display all the way back.

~~~
hollerith
\--and to have the front of the notebook off the ground (e.g., resting
on/against my knee) while the back is on the ground. Well, you can do that
with a Macbook, but (1) you stress the hinge and (2) you will probably move
the screen a little.

------
jsz0
Is there actually any evidence to suggest Apple's 34-pin dock cables fail more
often than others? I've owned 34-pin dock devices going back about 8 years now
and I cannot recall ever having a broken dock cable. I have no doubt it does
happen from time to time but from my own personal experience it doesn't seem
any more or less common than other types of cables. I know plenty of people
who lose them or want a second one to charge at work or carry in their
backpack but where's the tar and feather brigade at Apple Stores over this?
Why aren't my friends and family coming to me with mysterious charge/sync
problems? At $30/pop if these cables were failing at a very high rate I would
expect quite a lot more public outrage.

It may be that since iPods and iPhones are replaced fairly often, and include
a new cable, people have a cache of spares? If so doesn't that alone kind of
shoot down the designed-to-fail argument? Why include a new cable? Wouldn't
the increased support costs from telephone/in-store support for these problems
be far larger than selling $30 cables? It seems like the typical Internet
conspiracy that doesn't really make any sense when you start to look at the
details and notice there's absolutely no evidence to support the original
claim being offered.

~~~
jonhendry
I've never had a problem with a dock cable. Also, you can get cheap dock
cables for under $5, just not name-brand ones.

For that matter, I've never had a problem with macbook power adapter cords,
either.

------
Aloisius
I understand the æsthetic decision, but there is no reason why Apple couldn't
have made the wire that runs from the brick to your laptop detachable. That
way I could actually replace it for a reasonable amount.

~~~
jeremymims
This. Over the past five years I have had to replace four Apple power
adapters. Two caught on fire, one just stopped working, and one only worked
when I duct taped it to death. They replaced all but one under warranty. But
when I asked the Apple Genius in SoHo if this "whole catching on fire thing"
happened often, he didn't say no. He just told me he wasn't allowed to answer
that.

~~~
sanswork
I've replaced 3 in the past 2 years. All have melted right around the part
that goes into the laptop. It has gotten to the point where I won't even leave
it plugged in unless I am in the room.

~~~
jeremymims
Yep. You're describing pretty much what happened. It's always a nice when you
get sparks and smoke though. :-)

------
dmix
Design isn't just about aesthetics, its about balancing aesthetics AND
functionality. Apple's designers certainly knows this.

This was a poor design choice on their part, not just the design department
taking precedent over engineering and customer service. The designers are
personally responsible, not just the structure

~~~
mirkules
There is no reason they couldn't take a flimsy piece of a plastic tube and
cover the ugly-but-functional rings on the old style adapters. That way the
rings retain functionality, and they are covered, everyone is happy. When the
tube breaks, it just exposes the "ugly" rings, but the cable won't actually
break.

Why they couldn't do this - I don't know. But there must be a good technical
reason for it - if I -a software person- can think of something like that, I'm
sure they already thought of it too

~~~
sbierwagen

      But there must be a good technical reason for it - if I -a software person- can 
      think of something like that, I'm sure they already thought of it too.
    

The rings have to be exposed, that's how they work.

Consider a hypothetical cable that's flexible, but fragile. Fold it in half,
and it explodes violently, killing your customers and inspiring such a mighty
class-action lawsuit that it leaves your company a smoking grease stain on the
surface of the Earth; and leaves a five year stretch on your resume really
hard to explain at future job interviews.

So you add reinforcing ribs to the cable. Now when your suicidal users try to
bend the cable in half, the ribs mash into each other, preventing the minimum
bend radius from being violated, and thus preserving shareholder value.

But your designers spit out their macchiatos in shock on seeing your brilliant
solution, and start waving their smooth, untouched by actual work, hands
around; demanding that you cover up the cable strain relief with a thin
plastic tube.

Well, that's kinda tricky. You can use thick plastic, and prevent the cable
from bending entirely, or you can use thin plastic, which will buckle over the
unsupported areas when bent, since of course a concentric circle has a smaller
circumference, and look really obvious and terrible. There's no way to cover
it and still have it work.

~~~
lurker19
But the blingy solution breaks anyway, and is also ugly, beyond being
dangerous.

Parent's point was that if we assume Apple is optimizing for showroom
appearance, better to put the bling over the function bits and let the going
break after a few months, instead of having only bling and letting the bling
break and kill the device and user with it.

~~~
sbierwagen
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

------
RobAtticus
I wonder if this applies to the problem I've had ever since I've gotten a MBP
in the fall. I am now on my 4th charger. No matter how I handle the adapter,
it still manages to stop working within 3-4 months. The first one was probably
my fault as I didn't keep the brick as ventilated as I could've, so I think it
eventually fried itself.

The second one is still a mystery as I tried to use it one day and it didn't
work. No LED, no charge. The third one had a slow death where it would take
more and more jiggling and manipulating the cord to get it to work.

I don't get it. I wrap the cord around the little hinge things they have, keep
them ventilated, and they still crap out on me. By far my biggest gripe with
this MBP. If anybody else found a reliable way to stop this from happening,
please let me know.

~~~
axxl
To provide a counterpoint, I've had my MacbookPro for over 3 years now and
still have the same power cable and adapter as when I bought it. I never wrap
it, toss it around in my bag with all my other junk, carry it in all weather,
and I use it every day. My connection works fine and my brick hasn't
overheated. Not to say you're not having those issues, just that there are
good experiences and bad experiences with every product.

~~~
krakensden
The problem is with the the cables from the past couple of years, that's
probably why your stuff works and his more recent gear does not.

~~~
clark-kent
I bought my MBP in 2008, I'm on my third Magsafe cable now. The last 2 caught
fire. Seems I need a new cable every year.

~~~
jonhendry
I use a 2008 MBP's brick to run my 2010 MBP much of the time. Haven't had any
problems with it. Nor have I had any trouble with the 2010 brick.

------
dexen
I recall seeing some (non-Apple) hardware with case-to-cable transition
designed as an inverted strain relief. Instead of a semi-rigid tube extending
from device, the function was performed by proper curvature of the hole
itself; nothing extended beyond the profile except the cable.

I'm having hard time describing it properly, but the hole walls had specific
profile, elliptical extending outward. Pretty much like the big end of a
trumpet. The most you could bend the cable was to make it touch the hole wall,
and that profile of the wall was good enough to prevent cable cracking.

One disadvantage is that this kind of solution takes up some space insede of
the case...

~~~
jonah
The place I've seen this is actually on a certain generation of the apple
laptop power adapter.

[http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/...](http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/TS1725/TS1725-7.jpg)

Found under "7. Check for strain relief issues." on this page:
<http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1725>

I always thought it was a great idea, but they didn't use it for long so it
must have drawbacks.

[edit] I believe it was used on the aluminum powerbooks.

------
msutherl
For me the problem is not that they bend and break, but that they melt! See:
<http://www.google.com/search?q=magsafe+melted>

But before I go into this, let me explain the engineering of a power cable. If
you look at a power adapter cable for any non-Apple product, you'll notice
some metal "spikes" where the plug transitions to the cable. These spikes are
called a heat sink. The purpose of a heat sink is to prevent the cable from
heating to a severe degree if you use the charger for an extended period. The
heat sink allows the cable to have a nice dissipation of heat instead of
heating up and melting.

~~~
ak217
Sorry, I have no idea which spikes you're talking about. Could you elaborate
or find a picture?

------
parbo
Why isn't the iPod/iPhone/iPad connector using the magsafe design?

~~~
illicium
USB carries both power and data, while MagSafe carries only power. This
doesn't sound like a problem until you realize that the USB pins have to be
unplugged in a strict order: data before power. This is enforced in the
connector with varying pin lengths. With MagSafe, there is no guarantee of
connection order.

~~~
asadotzler
That seems like an easily surmounted problem to me. A MacSafe-like connector
could probably easily accomplish the same if there was a need for it.

------
pedalpete
The unfortunate part I find is that many companies are following Apple in this
'design trumps all' to their detriment.

How often are you actually wrapping up a power adapter, and bending the cord
to obscure angles? Compared to your headphones, or phone charging plug.

It seems most headphone manufacturers have moved away from relief rings, and
that results in much shorter lifetime for the headphones due to failure at
this point. I've got my zune charge cord here, and it doesn't have these rings
either. Kindle power cord has one small relief on either edge (but doesn't get
used as much anyway.

Am I giving Apple too much credit? Did they start this trend? or has this poor
design always existed?

------
TuxPirate
Here is a picture that shows descibed problem on such cable:
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaako/2316658032/>

~~~
chopsueyar
I've always had that occur on the other end, where the wire meets the
connector.

------
themal
I like Apple's hardware, but they seem to be useless at power cables and
batteries for their laptops. What makes matters worse is the replacement parts
are so expensive. I ended up removing the battery permanently because it grew
too big for the compartment. I also cut open the power cable so that the wires
could be rejoined and taped again. I never had these problems with
ThinkPads... sigh.

------
runjake
Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem with this? Am I the only
person who removes dock (and MagSafe) connectors by pulling on the plug, not
the cable?

Heck, I'm not even OCD. I'm pretty lazy and I still do it this way.

Apple headphones on the other hand, I go through 2-3 pairs a year (due to rain
and the rigors of running). Fortunately, the Apple Store just sends me
replacements without much hassle at all.

------
blendergasket
Yep, I'm on my second adapter for my MacBook. First broke between the adapter
and the cord going to my computer. The second sits beside me with that same
spot covered in duct tape. It's REALLY frustrating since the replacement
adapter was $80 and it's less than a year old.

~~~
jonhendry
Is there something about your usage, or the way you arrange things, that might
contribute? Do you wind the cord tightly?

------
kabdib
In the late 80s, Apple bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design molds.
They simulated plastic flow and helped them do fewer turns of the injection
molds they used for computer cases.

Makes sense, considering that each mold cost upward of half a million dollars.

\----

The "Industrial Design is King" thing is true at other companies as well. I've
seen horribly broken products go out the door, where the fixes involve making
ID changes, but the ID changes couldn't be made to happen because of (a) the
lead time -- usually a year -- and / or (b) it would have destroyed the "cool
look" of the product in someone's eyes.

------
chopsueyar
I feel the explanation could fit in the headline.

------
scotty79
Great. Now I know why cable fails. From other sources I know why GPU failed
(twice, and more to come, as fix by heating GPU to 200C is temporary).

Once I'll figure why battery swollen to thrice the original size (thank gods
it didn't exploded or spilled toxic substance on somebodies lap) then I'll
know why my girlfriends mac book is such a pain in the ass.

------
ugh
Sounds like a reasonable tradeoff to me.

I can understand why some people might not think that way but don't be
surprised that there are some people who do.

~~~
Niten
These poorly-designed adapters have a history of shorting out and catching
fire. Yes, I am surprised that anybody would think "looks nice" is a more
important feature than "won't burn our customers' houses down".

~~~
asadotzler
Can you point me to cases of houses burning down? I've no doubt it's possible,
but lots of things are possible. I got a small flame from mine when it burned
out but it was short-lived and would probably have had to have been sitting in
a basket of tinder to cause any serious damage to anything beyond the cord.

------
shiven
This looks like a decent solution: www.macmagsaver.com

I am not affiliated with them in any way. Though, I will be ordering one very
soon.

------
scriptproof
So, if I summarize correctly the red comment, they choosen the new design
because someone at Apple prefers it.

------
tobylane
Apples' designer's choice, or what seems to be a small heat/fire problem
covered by warranty? I haven't heard of anyone's laptop being damaged by this,
and the only people paying are out of warranty. It's a bother I don't want to
see, but at least they cover it.

------
gsivil
Does anybody know if the adapters are covered by the warranty?

------
kjell
If you don't think apple did a good enough job:
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/kjell/5818859629/in/photostream>

------
grandalf
Is this really an issue? I have never heard anyone say anything but good
things about mag-safe adapters.

I keep wishing the patent would expire so that all consumer devices could use
them.

------
molecularbutter
in other words, why apple makes such good looking products

------
chrisjsmith
Mine is fine (it's the smaller of the two without the release clips).
Unfortunately the USB plug on the other end has split AFTER the strain relief
resulting in sticky tape bodge.

------
quinndupont
Damn... If I need to replace another power brick from Apple...

------
staunch
So Engineering should come up with a solution that isn't ugly. Problem solved.

------
icarus_drowning
I guess I'm the only one who hasn't had any problems with a Mag Safe adapter
in the 3 years I've owned a MacBook Pro?

------
dstorrs
Here's a much simpler explanation:

Because the cables cost $30 and revenue is good.

------
mmaunder
I know you hn turkeys hate reddit but the resulting comment thread is f'ing
hilarious.

------
zyb09
Planned Obsolence (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence>). Yes
Apple is doing it, does it surprise anybody?

edit: well thanks for the downvotes, I know RDF is strong here but consider
how they removed the strain rings, how they charge $30 for a cable and why
they use a proprietary port. Making cable is no rocket-science, this is
definitely planned.

~~~
jonhendry
Maybe they charge $30 for the cable as a signal that customers should be a
little careful with it, even though it comes 'free' with an iPod/iPad/iPhone.

------
shii
It's funny how any link to reddit.com is always upvoted like a rocket.

~~~
BrandonM
I very rarely see Reddit submissions; they generally are for very insightful
or interesting comments, often from primary sources.

------
kmfrk
Full text, in case Apple catch wind of the comment:

> I used to work for Apple and interfaced with every division in the company,
> and I know EXACTLY why this happened. It has nothing to do with trying to
> get customers to buy more replacement adapters, but rather with the
> hierarchy of power at Apple.

>

> But before I go into this, let me explain the engineering of a power cable.
> If you look at a power adapter cable for any non-Apple product, you'll
> notice some plastic "rings" where the plug transitions to the cable. These
> rings are called a strain relief. The purpose of a strain relief is to
> prevent the cable from bending at a severe angle if you bend the cable at
> the base. The strain relief allows the cable to have a nice, gentle
> curvature if you tweak the cable instead of bending at a severe 90 degree
> angle. This gentle curvature prevents the cable from being broken through
> repeated use.

>

> Now let's look at the hierarchy of power at Apple. As with any company,
> Apple consists of many divisions (Sales, Marketing, Customer Service, etc.)
> THE most powerful division at Apple is Industrial Design. For those of you
> unfamiliar with the term industrial design, this is the division that makes
> the decisions about the overall look and feel of Apple's products. And when
> I say "the most powerful", I mean that their decisions trump the decisions
> of any other division at Apple, including Engineering and Customer Service.

>

> Now it just so happens that the Industrial Design department HATES how a
> strain relief looks on a power adapter. They would much prefer to have a
> nice clean transition between the cable and the plug. Aesthetically, this
> does look nicer, but from an engineering point of view, it's pretty much
> committing reliability suicide. Because there is no strain relief, the
> cables fail at a very high rate because they get bent at very harsh angles.
> I'm sure that the Engineering division gave every reason in the world why a
> strain relief should be on an adapter cable, and Customer Service said how
> bad the customer experience would be if tons of adapters failed, but if
> industrial design doesn't like a strain relief, guess what, it gets removed.

~~~
VMG
Do you think apple could delete that comment on reddit? How?

~~~
clistctrl
Legal pressure on the author.

------
dmix
"tl;dr: Apple is run by idiots." - Reddit comment

This is why I much prefer HN for any technical discussion.

~~~
burgerbrain
If you appreciate the conversation brought to you by HN, why are you just
dumping apparently inferior comments from other sites here instead of actually
making a contribution?

~~~
dmix
I was making a criticism of content in the link which is what we're discussing
in this thread. Are we not?

The comment in question had 60+ upvotes.

I also made a valid contribution to this thread earlier:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2642344>

~~~
burgerbrain
1) It was a meta-criticism. Of the site, not the content. 2) It serves no
purpose but to drag HN down to the level of Reddit.

