

NSA pays £100m in secret funding for GCHQ - colin_jack
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/01/nsa-paid-gchq-spying-edward-snowden

======
ceeK
What scares me further is that The Guardian seem to be the only publication
that are reporting on this. I'm a frequent BBC News reader and generally trust
in there neutrality. I would not have heard about any of the recent
revelations if not for The Guardian. I didn't even know about Tempora until I
saw it on a HN comment and looked it up on Wikipedia. Apparently there has
been a "D-Notice" to prevent reporting on the matter [1].

[1][http://order-order.com/2013/06/08/d-notice-june-7-2013/](http://order-
order.com/2013/06/08/d-notice-june-7-2013/)

~~~
harrytuttle
The BBC are terrible. Whilst they don't usually outright lie, they cherry pick
stories that don't piss off the ruling elite until everyone else has
thoroughly jumped on them.

Apart from the guardian, every other news source in the UK is arse paper.

~~~
ceeK
Suffice to say I think my source of news has changed into The Guardian's
hands.

Funny enough that the news they report and others don't is the only news I
really care about.

------
teamgb
The linked article only provides the highlights. A more in-depth article is
here:

[http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/aug/01/gch...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/aug/01/gchq-
spy-agency-nsa-edward-snowden#part-one)

As well as discussing the funding and various projects in more detail, it also
sheds some light on what life is like for the rank-and-file.

 _It is a world of decoding and cake sales, programming and pub quizzes.

Nobody at Cheltenham is particularly well paid, compared to the private sector
at least – a junior analyst might earn £25,000. "We can offer a fantastic
mission but we can’t compete with [private sector] salaries," one briefing
note lamented.

There are protocols on the clearing of desks at the end of the day, with
particularly sensitive documents being locked in special cupboards, the keys
to which are then stored in other reinforced –lockers which can only be opened
by following a set of complex instructions._

~~~
Amadou
> There are protocols on the clearing of desks at the end of the day, with
> particularly sensitive documents being locked in special cupboards

FWIW, this sort of thing is standard in _every_ classified facility in the US.
It would be messed up if they didn't do that, it is just basic opsec.

------
emhart
More damning than the headline here is that GCHQ apparently explicitly stated
that a major selling point for the partnership is the UK's lax legal regime,
which allows them to be "Less constrained by NSA's concerns about compliance."

~~~
jivatmanx
It's been reported elsewhere that the NSA may uses GCHQ to spy on Americans,
as a deliberate run around the fourth amendment.

I guess, funding GCHQ makes that worse, as well.

~~~
swombat
Of course, it's perfectly fine to circumvent a foundational privacy law of
your country by paying a foreign spy agency to do it on your behalf. What
could possibly be ethically dubious about that?

~~~
lutze
Look at it from the other way too.

A foreign agency is secretly funnelling money into an institution that's
supposed to be looking after my (as a UK citizen) interests.

I think it's well past time this incestuous charade was exposed.

------
jgrahamc
_Nobody at Cheltenham is particularly well paid, compared to the private
sector at least – a junior analyst might earn £25,000. "We can offer a
fantastic mission but we can’t compete with [private sector] salaries," one
briefing note lamented._

Yep. That was a big part of why when I talked to a GCHQ recruiter when I was
finishing my doctorate that I didn't bother going any further.

~~~
harrytuttle
I had a friend who started work there about 3 years ago. Once you're there,
you're also 100% unemployable in the private sector immediately thereafter. He
tried to get a job outside the place for nearly a year after realising on week
two it was a bad move.

I actually ended up writing him a reference from my company for some private
work to cover the time he was there and he said he was unemployed for the
entire period.

~~~
robgough
I'm curious as to why you think they're unemployable? Simply because they
can't talk about what they've been doing, and you can't ask for a reference -
or is it something about the job itself?

~~~
harrytuttle
Its about the public sector. Once you've done public sector work in the UK,
you are tarnished. This isn't a real barrier, but one put up by management.

~~~
UVB-76
I'd imagine not being able to tell prospective employers about any of the
experience you gained or achievements you made in the course of your
employment there would also be an issue?

~~~
harrytuttle
I will say I used to work for a private sector defence company. It wasn't a
great problem as I could demonstrate my skills.

Not that I did anything interesting unfortunately :(

------
JonSkeptic
>Snowden warned about the relationship between the NSA and GCHQ, saying the
organisations have been jointly responsible for developing techniques that
allow the mass harvesting and analysis of internet traffic.

>"It's not just a US problem," he said. "They are worse than the US."

Interesting. The Brits care less about privacy than the U.S.

~~~
swombat
Brits generally care as much (or as little) about privacy as Americans.
However, they don't have the strong constitutional protections to privacy that
the US has.

Not that these are proving to be all that strong, as things go...

------
freeduck
GCHQ at least on paper, is supposed to protect the British society. But as a
wise man once said: You can not serve two masters.

Who does GCHQ serve? The British or the hand that feed them.

------
aspensmonster
Absolutely disgusting.

>When GCHQ does supply the US with valuable intelligence, the agency boasts
about it. In one review, GCHQ boasted that it had supplied "unique
contributions" to the NSA during its investigation of the American citizen
responsible for an attempted car bomb attack in Times Square, New York City,
in 2010.

>No other detail is provided – but it raises the possibility that GCHQ might
have been spying on an American living in the US. The NSA is prohibited from
doing this by US law.

I'd say that's more than a possibility. That's a reasonable inference. And
there's nothing that any of the citizens of our respective western democracies
can do about it. Our own governments aren't representing our interests. We
can't flee to other governments because they're the ones doing our own
government's dirty work. It's corruption all the way down to protect us from a
nebulous threat, even though the panopticon presents a far more pervasive and
persistent threat than any terrorist could ever dream of, and whose
motivations are typically a response to our own foreign policies to begin
with. It's a nasty positive feedback loop that I want no part in, but have no
substantive say in regardless.

~~~
nsns
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukusa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukusa)

------
znowi
I suspect similar cooperations are in effect in many countries in Europe.
Which would also explain a very compliant reaction in the Snowden case.

------
ToastyMallows
What is with The Guardian and their NSFW article pictures on the sidebar?

~~~
jnbiche
Are you complaining about the breastfeeding picture? In which country are you
that this is not safe for your place of employment?

~~~
ToastyMallows
I usually consider any nudity in a picture NSFW. Not sure why this is strange.

Living in the US.

Downvoters: Rebutal?

~~~
kmfrk
Breastfeeding is unfortunately still a very contentious issue for a lot of
people. Facebook in particular are very embattled by people who - rightly -
believe breastfeeding is something that should be regarded as completely
normal and appropriate in any context.

Some countries are better at dealing with this than others, but I don't think
Europeans are perfect on the matter either.

~~~
ToastyMallows
I'll agree with that, usually the pictures are a little more discrete though,
but I guess the larger issue is, should they have be more discrete? I think it
all depends on context.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
The irrational fear of breasts is silly enough on its own, but I find it
offensive when people take pains to bother babies and mothers with their weird
sense of morality.

>should they have be more discrete?

Like how? Do you want mothers to retreat to a disgusting public restroom to
feed baby?

~~~
scott_karana
> Like how? Do you want mothers to retreat to a disgusting public restroom to
> feed baby?

Most mothers that I've seen publically breastfeeding have a light cloth that
they drape over themselves. Portable, cheap, and effective.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
>Most mothers that I've seen publically breastfeeding have a light cloth that
they drape over themselves. Portable, cheap, and effective.

Do you want that to be law? It's what my wife usually did with our children.
Our friends' child though, refused to feed under a cloth and would cry or
thrash until the cloth was removed.

~~~
scott_karana
Oh no, I wasn't weighing in to the argument in that respect!

I was merely pointing out that "going to a disgusting bathroom" is far from
the only concealment option.

------
northwest
_The leaked papers reveal the UK 's biggest fear is that "US perceptions of
the … partnership diminish, leading to loss of access, and/or reduction in
investment … to the UK"._

Talk about being bent over.

Maybe it's time to cut losses now and discuss UK's expulsion from the EU
(unless of course the other EU members are able to exert heavy pressure upon
the UK, which I honestly doubt).

------
northwest
Money gets things done. It's no news that this basically is how DC operates.

But it is extremely worrisome to see this culture of corruption swapping over
to Europe.

~~~
agilord
Why do you think this is something new in Europe (or at any place on Earth)?

~~~
northwest
That's not what I think. Corruption is a problem every human being is prone
to.

I'm talking about the _scale_ of corruption. In this regard, DC is the sickest
known example in the western world, I'd say. And now this kind of scale seems
about to be extended further.

~~~
agilord
You haven't really visited Eastern-Europe or any post-Soviet country, have
you? :)

Corruption was always high-scale, but usually with low visibility or even
lower accountability (as long as you bribe the watchers too). I think the
major change is the visibility of these actions, and the expectations around
them: people now hope (and not just dream) for better.

------
northwest
The general geopolitical trend seems to be that the US is about to take
control over Europe. Slowly, but under the radar of the People.

Maybe we really _could_ all agree on having 1 big merger.

But the idea that _" Americope"_ would then be controlled mainly out of North
America is pretty unhealthy/insane.

~~~
wil421
In a sense "Americope" is already a reality. They have already used their
power to divert the Bolivian presidents plane and restrict the airspace that
Snowden might have used to get out of Europe.

When these Snowden leaks first came out I was hoping that Europe would stand
up to the US but the fact is that many of the Intel agencies in Europe are
either in on the various programs or benefit from them via funding or some
sort of data sharing.

