
Brain-Machine Interface Isn't Sci-Fi Anymore - kartD
https://www.wired.com/story/brain-machine-interface-isnt-sci-fi-anymore/
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icoder
Since he _has_ a hand, how do they discern between the electrical signals
picked up from the motor neurons, and the electrical signals created by the
muscles (which are a lot stronger)?

To compare: some years ago I saw a talk from neuroscience researcher about a
locked in patients. Only with great effort they were able to discern a single
on/off signal from the brain, and only after a lot of practice. I asked why
commercial products seemed much further than that, and he explained that these
basically pickup subtle nearby (ie from the eye) muscles movements (that
locked in patients no longer have), and users only 'believe' they are
controlling the system directly with their brain.

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hacker_9
Motor neurons move the muscles, so does it matter which signal they pick up?
With some machine learning in there, it should be able to discern between
actual actions and random twitches.

Edit: for down voters who didn't read the article, they already are using
machine learning:

 _" Picking up the signals is only the first step. Perhaps the most difficult
part is then transforming them into signals that the device understands. This
requires a combination of coding, machine learning, and neuroscience."_

~~~
wlesieutre
Because one very important application for brain/computer interfaces is
prosthetics. If muscles in the hand are interpreting the signals from motor
neurons, and the computer reacts to muscle movements, then it's not useful for
that. The amputees have motor neurons, but they don't have hands so you need
to get the nerve signals more directly.

I don't know anything more than GP with regard to this project, but that's the
question they're asking.

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hprotagonist
>...whether he has a _hand_ is irrelevant

This is probably a reach. At a bare minimum, decoding EMG won't work if you
_never_ had a hand. If you had an amputation, the means by which your hand was
removed will greatly impact the efficacy of this sytem.

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philipov
Could you explain in more detail what the effects of different methods would
be?

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hprotagonist
amputations too high up, or accidental amputations that mangle rather than
cleanly remove, are more likely to make EMG decoding harder. If the axons are
too damaged during the amputation they'll wither and die, so the signal's
lost; if the arm is removed too high up, it becomes more challenging to
isolate existing neurons that went all the way to the fingers.

In both cases, muscle movement itself will swamp the motor neuron signal in
ways that make demuxing very challenging.

~~~
dTal
>neurons that went all the way to the fingers.

nitpick: there are no such motor neurons. The fingers are controlled by
muscles in the palm and forearm. But you probably knew this :)

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hacker_9
_" He resumes typing. Only this time he is typing on…nothing. Just the flat
tabletop. Yet the result is the same: The words he taps out appear on the
monitor. The text on the screen is being generated not by his fingertips, but
rather by the signals his brain is sending to his fingers. The armband is
intercepting those signals, interpreting them correctly, and relaying the
output to the computer"_

This is a pretty neat idea, but I feel not being able to see the keyboard is
kind of going to ruin this one. Even with touch typing you need some feedback
as to where the 'F' and 'J' are, and even then you can't reach the whole
keyboard. I suspect you can work around that with some sort of 'finger swipe'
language though.

But what about the mouse? Being able to put your hand on something is lot more
comfortable than, for example, using a touchpad on a laptop. The problem with
these sort of devices (reminds me of the wii remote) is all the stress is
moved to the fingers and wrists, which doesn't pay off well in the long run.

~~~
lukeschlather
Your first concern seems like a non-issue. Assuming your fingers are always
making the same movements, it's effectively like the F and J are magically
wherever your index fingers happen to be. "Can't reach the whole keyboard" is
a bit of a problem, but the obvious way it would work is that the signal which
the computer interprets as "position my hand over the numpad" becomes a input
mode shift. There's probably more there. Without knowing anything about how
the sensor tech works, I suspect that there's a difference between the signals
when my hands are on home row and when my right hand is on the numpad.

The mouse seems like it might be even easier in the long run. I'm assuming the
training is harder, but waving hands in the air sounds way better than resting
hands on a padded surface. RSI in general sounds like the X factor. Input via
odd muscle twitching sounds like it could raise all sorts of weird muscle
issues long-term.

~~~
jalk
I believe that "Resting" is actually key here - the Minority Report UI will
most likely tire your arms pretty quickly.

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Confiks
It seems that the article is really careful to never show "those weird
armbands sitting between his wrist and his elbows". Would anyone have an idea
what kind of sensors it would require to measure signals traveling through
motor nerves? Aside from the question of how to interpret these signals.

The site of the CTRL-Labs team shows an impressive list [1] of publications.
Only one [2] seems slightly related to to prototype of the article, where they
test the role of the motor cortex with different movements in mice.

[1] [https://ctrl-labs.com/people](https://ctrl-labs.com/people)

[2]
[http://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(17)30594-9](http://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273\(17\)30594-9)

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munin
I guess Silicon Valley hates it because the research was done by a bunch of
academics and government scientists, but they've been working on and
successfully demoing a brain interface that can do control and feedback with
arms: [https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/08/25/prosthetic-arm-sensory-
touch/](https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/08/25/prosthetic-arm-sensory-touch/)

~~~
Confiks
You may guess right ahead without putting any effort into explaining yourself,
but I'm pretty sure the team behind TFA hasn't ventured into your stray path
considering the number of publications made, cited here: [https://ctrl-
labs.com/people](https://ctrl-labs.com/people)

