
Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’ - impostervt
http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/22/adria-richards-im-staying-safe/
======
maudineormsby
Sorry, but I don't think the conference organizers overreacted. They did
exactly what they were supposed to do under the CoC - they received a
complaint, and addressed it discreetly. If they hadn't taken it seriously, and
just said 'cool it', then they'd be guilty of not taking their own CoC
seriously.

And they didn't kick the guy out, or anything like that - it was basically a
verbal warning, but done formally so that it was on record in case there was
another incident. That's it. Not so bad.

~~~
esbwhat
I also don't think Adria overreacted. It was a microaggression. Jokes like
that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to
tech. Were the jokes explicitly sexist? No, but in an industry that has more
than just a bad track record, stuff like that is not okay. Context matters.

~~~
smokeyj
> Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment

Maybe they make Adria uncomfortable. Maybe they make you uncomfortable. They
don't make all women uncomfortable, and you should stop pretending you speak
on behalf of women everywhere. Arguing that some humor should be saved for
when women aren't around seems like the antithesis of equality. If anything it
explains why a "boy club" would ever exist. To speak freely without fear of
persecution.

~~~
esbwhat
Bullshit. It's not about whether ALL women are uncomfortable. Of course not
all women are uncomfortable. So should we only frown upon behaviours that make
every single member of a minority uncomfortable? Some is enough.

~~~
smokeyj
By not wearing a burqa you make muslims uncomfortable. Better cover up!

~~~
esbwhat
Yes, it is such a fucking inconvenience not making juvenile and unprofessional
jokes at a conference where you are supposed to represent your employer.

~~~
smokeyj
Is it so hard to cover your face?

------
deltaqueue
I'm still amazed there are journalists reporting that the developers made
sexist jokes, and furthermore embarrassed at America's inability to be
comfortable with sexuality. The dongle joke was 5th grade humor and the
forking comment had 0 implied innuendo. Somehow these privately-told jokes,
somewhat sexual in nature, were inferred as sexist, and people lost their jobs
because of it!

This whole situation sickens me--the threats against Adria especially--but the
only thing truly surprising at this point is that Adria did not envision her
attempt to summon pitchforks would backfire, with pitchforks being turned on
herself. This is the kind of naivety that you would expect from someone
unfamiliar with the internet; not someone who works with programmers for a
living.

------
onemorepassword
Comparing her to Kathy Sierra is insulting. Kathy Sierra was an innocent
victim. Richards used her position to bully others.

Yes, the backlash is distasteful and disproportionate, but if you're the one
gleefully lighting the fire you are not just the victim if you get burned
yourself.

------
thelukester
Anyone who has read up on Adria Richards' past, knows she's an attentions
starved cry-baby. Can we please stop feeding her ego, and stop upvoting these
posts about her. She failed miserably at her job of developer relations and
has no more business in Technology. Lets move on and stop talking about her.

~~~
aliston
> she's an attention starved cry-baby

From what I've read, petty much epitomizes everything I couldn't stand about
dating in San Francisco. Too many self-absorbed, uptight, ultra-feminist,
unattractive weirdo girls with a chip on their shoulders...

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF2rq6WaC_4>

------
KVFinn
>Look, whatever “side” of this you’re one, here’s what happened:

>Some guys made some guy jokes about guy stuff

>A woman got offended and did something that was probably an over-reaction

>Some conference organizers over-reacted

>A company (PlayHaven) over-reacted

>The internet (all of us, but especially Anonymous) over-reacted

>Another company (SendGrid) over-reacted

>I’ve been cursed and pilloried and told to go kill myself by people on both
sides of the issue, just for writing about these events. People from both
sides see what they want to see and, like trained attack dogs, go in for the
kill with little consideration, no mercy, no nuance, no shades of grey. They
are so blinded by their self-righteousness that they’re perfectly OK with
perpetrating more metaphorical violence in the service of their almighty god-
blessed cause.

Amazing how things escalate.

At this rate I half expect to see this end in years of trench warfare and
mustard gas.

~~~
Millennium
The fact that he said anyone over-reacted is not going to help things.

That's not to say I don't think there were overreactions all around: I do. But
it's been my experience that people really don't like to hear that they're
overreacting, especially while they're in the middle of overreacting. They
dislike it so much that entire schools of thought are now dedicated quite
strongly to the proposition that there is no such thing as overreaction.

The author of this article may well have singlehandedly touched off another
round of overreaction from all parties involved. And the hell of it is, I
agree with his point; I just don't think it was a useful point to bring up.

~~~
MartinCron
That's an interesting conundrum that I've grappled with myself. Telling myself
counter-productive things like "outrage is a perfectly normal reaction to an
outrageous situation".

How _should_ you tell someone that they're overreacting?

~~~
YuriNiyazov
This particular subthread caused me to google "no such thing as overreaction".

This is what I found: <http://www.pediatricneurology.com/practica.htm>

and the most fascinating paragraph from them there was:

'There Is No Such Thing as Over-Reacting

A psychologist I recently met taught me the following: People do not over-
react. They react, by definition, appropriately to the meaning a situation has
for them. People have "over-meanings," not "over-reactions." When our child
blows up over what seems like a trivial issue to us, it may help us to
understand that to our child’s mind, this issue must have a tremendous amount
of meaning. We could benefit from saying, "Wow, if that’s how it feels to him,
we better calmly discuss this," rather than "Wow, he’s overreacting." For
example, imagine an ADD child’s tearful screaming over the process of getting
dressed. He’s not over-reacting. He is living a tough morning. Maybe that
would change our reaction to his behavior. Children’s "over-reactions" are a
window into their minds.'

------
ahallock
Guy jokes about guy stuff? Sorry, women joke about this stuff too. At an old
job, the women dropped sexual innuendo and jokes constantly, more so than the
men. Was I offended? Hell no, I'm perfectly fine with sexual content; we're
all just bags of decaying biological matter anyway. Why did everything become
so puritan/PC/ultra-conservative all of a sudden?

If a remark is directed at someone in a threatening way, that is different.
But saying this is just 'guy stuff' is ignorant of reality.

------
citricsquid

        But SendGrid had another option. Its leaders could have taken a leadership role. 
        Maybe create a forum to talk about this issue.
    

Not a bad suggestion, after all if they had not fired her they wouldn't have
had a business left and they would need something to do, a forum to moderate
sounds like just the ticket. Maybe they could have put up adverts to offset
the lost income from their real business.

------
fsck66
#1 - This woman obviously has gender issues - her domain name says it all
(butyoureagirl.com - really?)

#2 - The joke was completely childish and innocuous at best. No, that isn't
subjective, it was!. You can't proclaim yourself a geek and tell me you've
never heard a dongle joke. Amy Poller made a similar joke during a recent
superbowl commercial. I'd be hard-pressed to see her outting her as offensive
to all women.

#3 - No, she didn't "save programming" from anything. Programming was never
under any threat whatsoever. This were two fellow developers making a silly
joke that she completely blew out of proportion. This is nothing but a self
righteous individual with illusions of grandeur. What she did was get people
fired.

#4 - This was never about anything else but herself. And in the end, we are
all feeding a troll

------
alexobenauer
I apologize in advance for nitpicking, but from the article: "It’s been
horrible for the PlayHaven developer who lost his job. [...] Who now has to
find a new job in tech to support his kids. What’s worse, is that he’s not in
Silicon Valley..."

Software engineering exists beyond silicon valley. It's true.

~~~
nbouscal
It exists, but if you read past where you clipped the quote, you notice that
all he's saying is that in the valley demand is extremely high. Demand in
other places is significantly lower. (Speaking partly from personal
experience, as I do not live in Silicon Valley.)

~~~
dminor
I'm in the Portland area and recruiters call/email constantly. I have a hard
time believing it's not the same for any major metro area.

~~~
redblacktree
I agree. I'm in Indianapolis and there is plenty of demand for developers here
as well.

------
jiggy2011
The most disturbing thing about the way I have seen this reported is as some
war between feminists and software engineers. This seems to be a popular
narrative on the non-tech blogs.

In other words attributing all of the threats, DDOS etc to the sort of people
who go to pycon.

So that means there are two possibilities.

1) It is common for the sort of people who attend pycon and write relatively
sensible posts on HN also engage in this sort of behaviour. I hope this is not
true, and mostly doubt it but if it is then this is something deeply
disturbing.

2) We are letting the sort of people who frequent 4chan and "men's rights"
blogs act as representatives of the software community.

------
javert
This story is ridiculous attention-whoring on the part of venturebeat.

------
gsibble
This article manages to leave out numerous important facts (such as it being a
private conversation and Adria's blog post) and tries to paint her the victim
here.

Lest we forget, she has NOT apologized. She has not shown a single iota of
regret. For all we know, SendGrid would have let her keep her job if she had
been willing to apologize.

Until we hear some mea-culpa from her, she is not the victim. She is the
perpetrator.

------
sbuk
I just wish the tech community would grow up. I'm embarrassed and ashamed to
be part of it at times.

------
baltcode
This needs to stop. Going back to the origin: yes, inappropriate comments,
language etc. does not belong in professional life it makes someone
uncomfortable. The only way this will be changed is with understanding and
civility. It was an over-reaction to fire the developer. Adria Richard's
continual insistence on only addressing what she felt were inappropriate and
sexist jokes and no attention that his firing had made it into something else
was not helpful. I think Sendgrid and Adria should have been seen trying to
mend bridges at that point. Instead, it seems everyone is continuing to behave
extremely arrogantly as if they are perfect. That seems to be how PlayHaven,
Sendgrid, Adria, and the trolls are behaving.

------
prodigal_erik
> Do we now live in a culture where there are no second chances, where there’s
> no ability to call a Mulligan, get a do-over, or just have a bad day?

We already have been for a long time. This is not a problem with nerd culture
but with legal and HR culture. She basically branded "hostile environment
lawsuit risk" across his forehead, and he's instantly so untouchable that
PlayHaven couldn't safely retain him. I could understand him maybe wanting
revenge once it sinks in just how fucked he is within the US, I just don't get
the ridiculous threats from people who weren't involved.

------
columbo
Reminds me of a short story that has been around the net for at least ten
years:

<https://sites.google.com/site/cubiclejunglestory/>

~~~
Nav_Panel
I just read that in its entirety and now I'm wondering "what the hell did I
just read?"

I'm depressed now =\

------
orangethirty
I think it would be a great resolution to the problem if all parties involved
talked, apologized, and moved on. Even if no jobs are given back.

~~~
MartinCron
The problem isn't even with the original parties anymore, all of whom seem to
be reasonable people. It's the mostly anonymous commentariat who are using the
facts to support previously held intractable positions.

~~~
orangethirty
Yes, that is right. My opinion is that a positive act from parties involved
would simply quiet down the current wave of hate.

------
BudVVeezer
I am reminded of Penny Arcade, oddly enough.

<http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19>

~~~
sp332
This isn't about anonymity. The people involved (Adria, Hank, the companies
that fired them) talked to each other face-to-face.

~~~
misnome
Yes, but the rest of the internet is in anonymity. Which reaction has been
blown all out of proportion.

~~~
sp332
There is a lot of vitriol on pages with identities both pseudonymous, e.g.
disqus, and real... did you see the conversation on Facebook? People use their
real names and identities to be "dickwads".

------
criley
I hate the idea that she's getting death threats and insults because of her
gender. That's wrong. It's not because of her gender.

It's because she's a notable figure on the internet.

I challenge the reader to find any notable figure online who has held a
controversial position and not been the target of death threats.

That is an Internet anonymity problem, not a gender problem!

Women are not the only targets of anonymous death threats online!

(Not to excuse the appalling behavior of anonymous cowards who point their
threats at almost every notable news target. Seriously, go read the forums on
a major partisan site. Vile, disgusting, hurtful and violent language aren't
the exception, they're the norm).

By playing into the gender context we're playing once against into these
stupid gender arguments where they don't belong.

" _But they're using anti-women language_ "

Of course they are! If it were a crippled man being insulted, why not imagine
the language they'd use. If it was a black man being insulted and threatened,
guess the language they'd use.

They pick their language to troll their target. They pick it after picking
their target -- the language isn't the reason!

And yet again, a non gender issue will be filed under sexism.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
Please explain how this situation would have worked if, instead of Adria, the
original tweeter/picture-poster had been a white, heterosexual, Protestant
man.

~~~
pyre
You've never seen Anonymous go nuclear on white supremacists? Or back when
they were trolling Tom Green's live web show? etc.

The fact that this is a "Women in Tech" issue is what generated so much
publicity, and the publicity is what draws the trolls. If two posters on
4chan's /b/ board had some exchange where one named-and-shamed the other over
a penis joke, and he ended up losing his job? I don't think it's hard to
imagine Anonymous coming down hard in the perpetrator, whether male or female.

~~~
mladenkovacevic
The difference is in the scale.

I bet if you compared their campaign of "going nuclear" on white supremacists
it would register but a blip compared to what's going on here.

And it IS because she is a woman... and also because she's black. Those two
probably each increase the measure of the e-mob response exponentially.

~~~
jimzvz
> _I bet..._

> _...probably..._

> _And it IS..._

Believe it or not, your opinion isn't fact.

------
logjam
The irrational venom and utter cowardice of those who attacked this woman and
her supporters, including here on HN, shouldn't be surprising, but somehow it
still is.

Tech? I would have thought better of arguably among the most "rational"
humans. Yet another lesson in how close to the surface very primitive emotions
lie.

And tech remains a cesspool of mysogyny.

~~~
njharman
She was kind of a douche. You don't get a pass for being a douche just because
you're female (or anything else).

If that's irrational, venomous, and cowardly I'll wear those labels proudly.

~~~
TheZenPsycho
you will cast your lot in with the dudes threatening rape and death?

~~~
javert
He's not casting his lot in with those dudes. The guy who he is responding to,
is. Which is a gross injustice.

~~~
TheZenPsycho
You are either lying or stupid, and I can't tell which. edit: To those who
would downvote me LOOK AT THE POST he is referring to. What is your problem
with actually reading things?

------
papsosouid
"Anonymous" did not over-react. For their reaction to be an over-reaction, it
would have to have a goal other than "lol those idiots took us seriously
again". Do people honestly not realize than absurd copypasta like
<http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/navy-seal-copypasta> are not actually death
threats? And that treating them seriously is exactly what the people posting
them want?

~~~
guizzy
Sure, but on the other hand, they're giving Adria exactly what she needed to
get out of this one stronger: a way to claim to be the victim of the Internet
Hate Machine.

~~~
papsosouid
She can just claim to be a victim anyways, nobody cares if it is true or not.
Just like "I got death and rape threats" wasn't true the last 10 times women
claimed that for public sympathy/cash.

------
louisfriend03
Regardless whether Adria was a male or female, her actions - dragging SendGrid
(and claiming they backed her action) - into this mess, left SendGrid with
little option.

So let's not over react with these claims of over reactions? And I don't agree
PyCon over reacted either.

Adria made a bad decision and PlayHaven was the only party to over react,
IMHO.

And the internet is just being the internet. Same as it ever was for the past
years.

Stop trying to make this about sexism - it's not going to happen.

~~~
baltcode
The right thing for Sendgrid to do was to try to appear conciliatory to the
person who just lost a job. If Adria was not ready to do that, then Sendgrid
had to fire her. Similarly, the Playhaven dev, had he been given a chance
needed to apologize and Playhaven had to fire him if he didn't.

