
The Positive Side of Shame - yarapavan
https://fs.blog/2020/01/positive-side-of-shame/
======
tempsy
I think it depends on the mental state of the person being shamed.

People who experience childhood trauma (sexual, physical, emotional, etc.) are
particularly at risk for developing a chronic, toxic sense of shame that
follows them throughout life.

If you as the shamer shame someone who is in that position, it would only
compound their shame and be extremely unhelpful, since it is something they
already feel about themselves. Of course, it's difficult to know whether
someone feels toxic shame about themselves as the "shamer", which makes it
impossible to know if it would be "helpful".

Point is, because it's impossible to know whether the recipient of shame feels
"toxic shame" about themselves, I would never purposefully engage in
"strategic shaming" as a way to help someone.

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twic
John Carmack (probably) [0]:

 _Left to themselves, most people have a tremendous ability to ignore their
flaws, and it hampers their growth. A bit of shame is often a positive
motivation. I am ashamed of a lot of code I wrote last year. I have reasons
why it is the way it is, some of which are defensible, but some are just "WTF
was I thinking?" If you don't have nagging bits of guilt about your recent
body of work, it might well be a benefit for someone to point out problems in
terms that break through your defenses._

[0]
[https://disqus.com/home/discussion/varianceexplained/a_milli...](https://disqus.com/home/discussion/varianceexplained/a_million_lines_of_bad_code_variance_explained_20/#comment-)
1974419008

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stared
Sure, shame works (otherwise who would care to use it?). But it is a dangerous
weapon. When people stop doing something because of shame, it's not that they
change their minds. It's because they were (or are afraid of being)
humiliated.

In _Not-Violent Communication_ Marshall Rosenberg considers shame (and guilt)
to be one of the violent ways to change people's behavior.

And yes, shame has its place to coerce social rules - the same as (the threat
of) using physical (including lethal) force - e.g. by police. But IMHO it
should be the last resort, not a go-to method.

~~~
leftyted
Shame was how I learned to behave when I was a child, it was my parents' go-to
method, and I expect that's true for most parents. The fact that I was shamed
into brushing my teeth, washing my hands, not lying, and generally acting like
a responsible human being doesn't mean that "I didn't change my mind". Nor
does it mean that my parents perpetrated violence against me and squelched my
individuality.

When you feel shame it's because you accept external judgements. If you didn't
accept those judgements then you wouldn't feel shame, you'd just be angry.
Accepting external judgements is healthy and necessary because our self-worth
is derived from our perception of how other people view us.

Like any tool, shame can be misused. But, as the article lays out, it's a
necessary tool. It's also highly preferable to violence.

> In Not-Violent Communication Marshall Rosenberg considers shame (and guilt)
> to be one of the violent ways to change people's behavior.

Calling shame "violent" is dismissing _actual violence_.

~~~
taurath
I was also shamed by my parents - it was their favorite tool. When it comes to
things like brushing your teeth, thats one thing. The stakes there are lot
lower.

When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality,
shame is absolutely a violent thing. The suicide rate for trans people is as
high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame - shame from others and society
that becomes internalized. LGBT people have had to form whole alternate
communities because of shame. For many of us our relationship to shame forms
large parts of our personality.

> Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence.

I agree if you're dealing with the idea of "all" shame, but in a lot of
contexts is just as or even more harmful. Being punched is less harmful to a
person than feeling like they're rejected by the whole of their community.

~~~
rayiner
> When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality

I’m from an Asian society and I’ve seen the pain the strict social framework
can cause people who biologically cannot conform to social expectations.
However, I feel like your phraseology sweeps more broadly than necessary.
Society should think very hard about what would be good social norms, and
evolve them as appropriate. (For example, the social norms against women on
the front lines may need to be re-evaluated in the age of fly-by-wire F22.)
And society should accommodate people who for biological reasons are
different.

But that does not require unstructured, wholesale accommodation of how people
“ _choose_ to express their individuality.” You can accommodate people without
abandoning the rule that, “ _in general,_ society expects you to be a certain
way and do certain things.” Abandoning that rule is a recipe for unhappy,
directionless people and a disharmonious society. The fact of the matter is
that (1) society is better and more well functioning when people conform; and
(2) most people are pretty similar and will be made happy by the same things.
The stunning irony of millennials is that they were raised to “follow their
bliss.” But they grew up, and what’s their number one complaint? That they
can’t find steady work that will let them afford a house in the suburbs and a
couple of kids.

~~~
taurath
I think you're right, and my wording isn't as precise as it could be. There's
still the concept of societal violence though, where society is set up to form
or force its inhabitants into shapes they would naturally not be able to
contort into. Its a matter of degrees. The more a society has exacting
expectations of its inhabitants, the more there will become troublesome
elements.

> The stunning irony of millennials is that they were raised to “follow their
> bliss.”

Citation please! Not my experience.

> But they grew up, and what’s their number one complaint? That they can’t
> find steady work that will let them afford a house in the suburbs and a
> couple of kids.

Citation please! Not my experience. Just complaining that it takes a 90th
percentile income to afford housing in most areas now instead of 60th decades
ago.

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rayiner
Shame is underused in western society. For example, I'd love to see HOV lane
enforcement that just involved cameras capturing the faces of HOV violators
and posting them online.

~~~
taurath
The advertising industry more than makes up for the lack of governmental shame
in the US. Also I don't think the LGBT or most monitory communities would
agree that shame is underused.

I'd love to see the HOV idea though.

~~~
ryandrake
As someone else wrote in a different thread: “The shamee must consider
themselves subject to the same social norms as the shamer."

So the HOV thing would only work on people who thought it was morally or
socially wrong to drive in the HOV lane. If you, for example, believe that HOV
lanes are simply a handout to already-rich Tesla drivers and just remove a
useful lane from the rest of us, then the only reason you don’t drive in them
is the risk of a fine if you get caught. These people don’t care if they are
publicly called out for breaking a rule because they reject the moral basis of
the rule.

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commandlinefan
“Mockery is an important social tool for squelching stupidity. I’ve never seen
anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the
acquisition of new facts. But I’ve seen plenty of people change behavior to
avoid being mocked.” — Scott Adams

~~~
skinkestek
Haven't met me then :-)

I've changed my views on drug policies thanks to discussing it - mostly
politely IIRC - here on HN.

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asfarley
I think the next 50-100 years might be a reverse renaissance where humanity
discovers the value of heuristics like shame, fear of the unknown, etc,
through large-scale automation and measurement.

Rather than eliminating these human flaws, we may begin to codify and
implement them in automated systems.

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brudgers
The social norm was unencrypted and trusting. Google's power allows it to
force less powerful businesses to operate in ways that are to Google's
advantage. Google doesn't shame web owners. Google scares ordinary users.
Users have emotions. Websites don't.

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Pfhreak
This seems like a pretty weak argument -- that we've evolved a response to
shame and it thus must be considered a useful tool for us.

We've also evolved a response to violence, and yet I wouldn't consider
violence to be a useful tool in my management toolbelt.

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GrumpyNl
I will let you know tomorrow, will be shamed then . Public sale of property
cause of some tax problems.

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pwinnski
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can make me feel like I
deserved it.

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AzzieElbab
shame was essential concept in some highly entertaining episodes of a popular
TV show about kings, dragons, and zombies

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rhacker
If someone is being an asshole instead of shaming them, we now shame the
shammers. Which makes no sense, because now everyone is a shammer and should
be shamed for that, because that's the rule now right?

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herostratus101
People often say that "fat-shaming doesn't work," but Asian Americans fat
shame their overweight family members constantly and -- surprise -- are among
the least obese demographic groups in America today.

~~~
Someone1234
Here's a paper that looked at this[0]:

> Paradoxically, the use of fat-shaming to induce weight loss is a significant
> public health issue, as it has been linked to eating and exercise
> psychopathology. As juvenile obesity increases in African societies, there
> is a continuing risk that obese school children and adolescents in physical
> activity settings will become targets of fat-shaming that damage their
> developing self-image and weight management efficacy. The thesis of this
> paper is that fat-shaming in physical activity contexts can undermine
> efforts to stem juvenile obesity, promote lifelong physical activity and
> redress health inequities.

So "fat shaming" not only destroys juvenile's self-esteem, but may actually
make them gain weight and struggle to control their weight. If you have any
literature that supports "fat shaming" as a successful weight loss strategy,
I'd be interested to read it.

[0]
[https://journals.co.za/content/ajpherd1/22/Issue-41/EJC20007...](https://journals.co.za/content/ajpherd1/22/Issue-41/EJC200074)

