
Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself - tgrosinger
http://www.extrahop.com/post/blog/programming-by-voice-staying-productive-without-harming-yourself/
======
flente
__EVERYONE __who suffers from RSI should read this:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1269951](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1269951)

I read it about a year ago, and it was probably the single most important
article I've read in my entire life.

Some background: I've been using computers since I was a little kid. Used to
play videos games a whole ton. Around the age of 15, I started having severe
RSI-related pain in my hands. Even after I stopped gaming, I could never get
away from the keyboard and mouse, because I was a technology professional.

Fast forward 15 years. I'd been dealing with constant pain every day for as
long as I could remember. My hands hurt even when I wasn't typing. It was bad
enough that I was considering changing my line of work.

I'd tried every type of medical remedy under the sun. I'd seen (many) doctors,
physical therapists, chiropractors, acupuncturists, etc., but I couldn't find
any sort of treatment that provided anything but temporary pain relief.

Through some stroke of incredible luck, I stumbled across this article
randomly while looking for something else. I read it and found Aaron's
experience closely mirrored mine in a lot of ways. I immediately bought the
book he recommended, started reading it on my Kindle, and began following the
advice contained within.

Two weeks later, I was almost entirely pain-free. Now a year out, I can type
all day without even the slightest twinge of pain. Seem too good to be true? I
probably would've said the same thing if it hadn't happened to me.

I will say one thing -- I've recommended this book to a number of people at
this point, but not all of them have had the same kind of result I have. I've
noticed the ones who really buy into it and become convinced that their pain
has a psychosomatic basis see their pain disappear. The ones who still stick
to the idea their pain is caused by an previous injury or old age -- those
folks don't seem to get much benefit.

~~~
henrik_w
An alternative data point: I had severe RSI several years ago, to the point of
thinking that I would have to stop programming professionally alltogether.
What worked for me was starting to use a break program (10 seconds micro
breaks every 5 minutes, exercises for a few minutes every 45 minutes) and
switching to a more ergonomic keyboard and mouse. It worked well for me, and I
am now completely recovered. More details in "How I Beat Repetitive Stress
Injury" [http://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-
rsi/](http://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/)

Regardless of what works - any signs of RSI should be acted on immediately! It
won't get better by itself.

~~~
ericdykstra
Yet another data point here...

After using the ergonomically suicidal Apple Magic Mouse and Apple wireless
keyboard, I developed RSI after just a couple of months. I having my wrists
and forearms massaged every night until the tightness went away (for the
night), and I switched to a mechanical keyboard, a nice-sized gaming mouse,
and started mousing with my left hand at work.

I haven't had any RSI symptoms for over 2 years, and still just alternate
mousing hands (left-handed at work, right-handed at home), and use a
mechanical keyboard without a 10-key (keeps your mouse closer to a neutral
position for your body).

Here's what I use at work, if anyone is interested:

Mouse: [http://www.amazon.com/Razer-Deathadder-Infrared-Gaming-
Mouse...](http://www.amazon.com/Razer-Deathadder-Infrared-Gaming-
Mouse/dp/B002Q4U5DK)

Keyboard: [http://www.amazon.com/Storm-QuickFire-Rapid-Tenkeyless-
Mecha...](http://www.amazon.com/Storm-QuickFire-Rapid-Tenkeyless-
Mechanical/dp/B007VDKLLM/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1413869364&sr=1-2&keywords=cmstorm+brown)

~~~
henrik_w
Yes, Apple keyboards are ergonomical disasters.

~~~
mattlutze
Like Jobs' "software hobbyists" the Apple was originally built for, I suppose
their keyboards are truly designed for the "typing hobbyist".

------
randomsearch
Recently I've had RSI and been having physio. My physiotherapist seems to be
very experienced and pretty much right about everything. Here's what she told
me:

1\. Fix your posture. 2\. Use ergonomic devices. 3\. Exercise to strengthen
your core and back muscles, and counteract your sedentary lifestyle.

Details below.

1\. Posture

The main cause of RSI is bad posture at the desk. Both the way you type and
use the mouse, but importantly also the way you sit.

There's little point treating the symptoms if you don't treat the cause.
Looking around my workplace, I see pretty much no-one in the correct posture.

\- The back of your chair should be in contact with your back, i.e. actually
touching it at all times.

\- You should be _right_ under the desk. If your chair has arm rests that stop
you from getting under the desk, get a new chair.

\- Top of screen at eye-level (most people have this spot on).

\- Keyboard a little back from the edge of the desk.

\- Elbows at approximately 90 degrees

\- your wrists should not be at an awkward angle as they approach the
keyboard.

2\. Ergonomic devices

Get a good sized keyboard. Don't use awkward keyboard shortcuts, e.g. alt-
tabbing on a Mac running virtual box requires your left thumb to reach
underneath the other fingers. This is bad. Re-map common shortcuts or use two
hands.

Get a mouse that has a natural (hand-shake/vertical) grip. e.g.

[http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wireless-Vertical-Ergonomic-
Optical-...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wireless-Vertical-Ergonomic-
Optical-1600DPI/dp/B00BIFNTMC/)

This reduces the stress on your wrist. Made a huge difference to me. Check out
the reviews.

3\. Exercise

My physio recommended swimming, as physios so often do! It will strengthen
your back and core, to help you sit up straight.

However, she also recommended walking. Walk at lunch and in the evening, to
get away from the sitting posture.

This has pretty much cured my RSI. Take it or leave it! :-)

~~~
muraiki
I also had RSI which progressed to the point where I was starting to worry if
I'd be able to keep using a keyboard at all. A standing desk had helped for
some time, but it was reaching the point where I'd stand for 3/4ths of the
day, come home, and simply lie down.

I went to physical therapy, which identified problems with my neck and
shoulders, and then we began working on those muscle groups and some of my
core. I should note that these exercises were very gradual, such as using no
weights or 1-2lb weights -- I didn't go straight to lifting!

After a few months of this, most of my symptoms have disappeared (I only went
to phys therapy for about 1.5 months; afterwards I was able to keep doing the
exercises at home). Also, my wife has noticed that my posture has naturally
improved as a result of the exercises, such as my shoulders no longer rolling
inwards.

I still have some remaining long term problems that I've had for a decade, but
now I can sit and use a computer the whole day with very few problems. Of
course, everybody's situation is different: physical therapy, surgery, and
"The Mindbody Prescription" mentioned elsewhere have not helped a friend of
mine. But at least in my case, it was a bit humbling to realize that all I
really needed to do was exercise (and I'm not overweight, either).

Something else that helped me was getting a quality mechanical keyboard with
low actuation and learning how to use it without bottoming out. The model that
I like (CM Storm Quickfire Rapid) is unfortunately no longer made, but it uses
Cherry MX Brown switches (not loud, but still has an actuation point) and has
no numeric keypad, so I can keep the mouse close by without having to stretch
my shoulder. I use blue switches at home, which have a more clear actuation
point and thus are probably better for a mechanical keyboard novice, but they
are probably too loud to use in an open office environment. This guide is very
helpful for understanding the how & why of mechanical keyboards:
[http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/official-mechanical-
keyboa...](http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/official-mechanical-keyboard-
guide)

------
trishume
I'm currently trying to solve my RSI problems by going farther than the normal
progression of ergonomic peripherals. If that doesn't work, I'll have to give
up and go to voice control.

I've designed and built my own chording keyboard, which should be 10x less
stressful to type on than a normal keyboard. I also have an eye tracker that
I'm going to program to use to replace most mouse tasks.

I don't like the idea of inaccurate input that makes noise (me speaking) that
could disturb others in an office. I have a feeling that being too noisy for
an open-concept office might limit my career options in the future. But I
would still rather live with that than live with RSIs.

I do really like the idea of running Windows in a VM and proxying the commands
to linux. That was previously one of my qualms with voice control: that I'd
have to switch to Windows.

My other idea is to switch to a mass-motor gesture and eye-tracking based
system using an Oculus Rift with an IR camera mounted in an eye socket. That
might be an interesting and fun way of programming even if it wasn't to solve
an RSI problem.

~~~
muyuu
I'm fortunate that I've never had rsi despite my extreme computer usage, but
I'm interested in the possibilities of eye tracking for interfaces. Is it
accurate enough? One simple thing that would come very handy is widget focus
switching, maybe in combination with some key combo, "switch focus to where
I'm looking" \- that would save me a lot of reaching for the mouse.

~~~
Tyr42
At least at this point it's accurate to about a palm sized region, and there
is a cool auto scroll demo. But getting together UI and making it useable is a
pretty big project.

~~~
muyuu
That's not great but it would be acceptable to switch focus between screens
(or big enough tiles in a tiled desktop). Together with some clever mechanisms
one could define task/tab/window groups per area and make switching much more
manageable for large amounts of elements without having to surrender to "pick
the mouse"-"select"-"back to the kb".

------
Hortinstein
this is all I think of when I think about programming by voice:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc)
I remember laughing so hard the first time I saw this. (granted its from
vista, and I know voice has come a long way since then)

However I could see myself using voice commands that activate Macros or other
actions. I just bought a Nexus9 and am going to try to use it for coding, I
can definitely see potentially using voice commands to augment that workflow.

~~~
dec0dedab0de
I was expecting that to be a link to someone from tng

------
singularity2001
Here is a rather conventional setup with which I completely got rid of my RSI:

1) Kinesis Freestyle2 keyboard

2) mouse that fits my hands (razr doesn't)

3) listening to the body (!)

4) stretching (especially in the morning)

5) Lots of physical exercise / gym / swimming

6) speech recognition for all text (emails+code comments)

I find it hard to believe that it can be cured simply by changing your mind,
but knowing that there are cures certainly helps.

Almost forgot the most important part: a good chair. No slouching! Ever! This
is more against upper back pain, but I guess neck tension is related to arm
pain.

This is one of the best reasons for me to have a startup: to be able to work
when and only when my body tells me that it's okay.

------
lstamour
I had a brief period of RSI while playing video games in my teens and forced
myself to switch to Colemak as a Microsoft-style "natural" keyboard wasn't
enough. The Colemak did the trick, until 2 years ago when I suddenly had
terrible pain in my fingers and wrists for about two weeks. It eventually
disappeared as I began to learn how to use an Kinesis keyboard and
experimented with an RF-based Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 or a Kensington
SlimBlade Trackball. Adjusting my chair and posture helped enormously also. I
eventually discovered the source of the mysterious pain when I tried to solve
a Rubik's Cube and it flared up again. Turns out, I'd spent the weekend before
my 2 weeks of misery at a hackathon that featured Rubik's Cubes also and I'd
spent time learning how to solve one. I do really want to experiment with
voice, but these darn open concept offices ... As for gestures, Kinect might
come in handy, it also does voice and can focus on one person of many for
voice recognition. But I'd almost rather learn a custom, chorded ten-key
keyboard than speak every semicolon ... Oh and the trick with the Cherry MX
blue "clicky" keyboards is that you don't actually have to press as hard as
people normally push the keys. Pressing harder strains your hands further, so
the audible and tactile "click" feedback helps train your fingers to not push
as hard -- at least, that's my two cents on them. I like it, but not enough to
switch from a nicer, concave layout like the Kinesis. Makes a good backup
keyboard though, as I can't afford two concave keyboards.

------
JonathonW
Watching the PyCon talk the author mentions as inspiration, the thing that
seems like it would really kill this for me (even given a good macro set for
the editors and applications I need) is the input lag. The whole time, it
seems like he's either pausing between commands and able to react to
incorrectly interpreted input, or he's speaking a long string of commands and
something goes wrong in the middle that invalidates the remainder of his
sentence (he ends up in the wrong mode, or in the wrong pane, or something
along those lines).

The huge advantage that the keyboard has as an input device is that there's
zero delay-- if I make a mistake, I can go back and fix it as soon as I'm able
to see and react to it. Speech recognition has this inherent delay to it-- it
has to delay execution of a command until it's concluded that there's no other
possible interpretation of what you just tried to say. Speech is a lot slower
than I can react-- the inherent lag there just seems intolerable.

I suppose one could get used to it if it came down to "use speech recognition
or find another job", though.

~~~
synkarius
Like the author of the article, I've been making the switch to programming by
voice. At first, the delay was really jarring, but you get used to it.

You're also completely correct about how when you speak a chain of commands,
one of the commands in the middle getting messed up can invalidate the rest.
That happens a lot. You learn to speak in shorter chains, and also to make the
commands phonetically distinct.

That said, both the delay and the inaccuracy problems can be greatly
ameliorated by a fast CPU and a good sound card. I don't have any benchmarks,
but I have noticed the difference since upgrading.

~~~
tracker1
I know someone who does a lot of voice input, he tends to use simple sounds
that are distinct as a trained syntax... like: "woof" for moving to the end of
a line, and "bark" for moving back.. and other words/sounds that aren't common
in conversation... he said it took some getting used to but the accuracy got a
lot better.

~~~
synkarius
I use the word "bark" too, albeit for a different purpose. I think that sort
of spec selection is just a habit that you naturally get into when creating a
lot of voice commands.

Incidentally, I've learned a bit of Korean, and it's caused me to notice that
Dragon recognizes words which don't end in multiple unvoiced consonants more
easily than those that do. (For example, "taze" is better than "taste" and
"pad" is better than "pact".)

------
dignick
Great article! I have wondered if this was possible before. The only problem
is eventually you might lose your voice!

I had hand/arm problems not long after starting my first programming job, but
I have solved them now.

My main advice would be to get a good chair and desk. I have a RH logic 400
chair and height adjustable desk, with an Imprint Cumulus Pro floor mat. I
also use a Kinesis Freestyle 2 keyboard. All together this cost about £1700,
but it was absolutely worth it. I spend approx 50% of my time standing which I
find much more comfortable than sitting.

My other piece of advice would be to take regular breaks. I recently became
self employed which allows me to intermingle work with exercise, socialising
and eating as I want. This really helps with fatigue. At least try to take a
short break once an hour. I found jawbone up good for this as you can set it
to vibrate after you have been sat idly for too long.

Finally, if using the mouse is a problem, learn to use your non-dominant hand.
This has pretty much solved my problems with my mouse hand.

~~~
synkarius
Regarding the first line of this comment, though voice strain is something to
look out for, if you speak correctly[1], you can minimize your chances of
damaging your voice.

[1]
[http://www.mainespeechtherapy.org/content/4021/Voice_Disorde...](http://www.mainespeechtherapy.org/content/4021/Voice_Disorders)

------
lmm
FWIW switching to the Dvorak layout was the best thing I ever did. Not only
did my fingers stop hurting, I could actually type faster than I had before.
And it only took a weekend to make the transition.

Also, choose a keyboard that works for you. Different people have different
opinions; the one I use was a $3 no-name one, but it felt right.

~~~
Symbiote
I also recommend Dvorak. I doubt it solves all problems, but I feel it
significantly increases the time I can spend typing compared to with Qwerty,
much beyond what I do for 99% of the year.

Easily overlooked is using the shift, control and alt keys correctly. It's
left-control + backspace, right-shift + 1, right-alt+F4 (to pick examples that
work on Qwerty and Dvorak). Otherwise you're still stretching.

------
rwallace
Voice recognition can work well for English text. For writing code, it's
certainly better than nothing, but on the awkward side; I found a zero force
keyboard works better:
[http://specialneedscomputers.ca/index.php?l=product_detail&p...](http://specialneedscomputers.ca/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127)

A USB touchpad is a zero force mouse substitute, though a little annoying for
positioning; I ended up using one for clicking in combination with an optical
mouse for positioning. Has anyone yet released a mouse with zero force clicks?
Microsoft released one with zero force for half a dozen useless functions,
annoyingly, everything _except_ left and right clicks.

~~~
jeremyt
A CleanKeys keyboard does the same thing but cheaper.

------
sundvor
Very interesting. Not sure if I could live with the input lag myself, however.

I've been a full time developer since 1998 or thereabouts, but have been
coding since I was a child. Early on when I started working full time I found
myself quickly getting RSI fatigue and tingling symptoms. I switched to a
Microsoft ergonomic keyboard and various trackballs; this greatly ameliorated
the growing pain.

In the past few years, however, I've made the switch to gaming grade laser
mice (e.g. the Logitech G9X) and have almost no issues. The high sensitivity
and precision these allow for at high DPI settings are great vs RSI.
Furthermore, since a shoulder fracture earlier this year (now healed) when I
was forced to use only mainly left arm for some time, I've kept up the use of
left hand mouse. At clients I'll have it on left hand side, at home office on
the right hand side. I believe ambidextrous use of the mouse has a lot of
benefits, spreading the effort level being the biggest of them.

For keyboards, I touch type and made the switch to mechanical keyboards
(Logitech G710+ with O ring dampened MX Browns) around 1.5 years ago - I'm not
getting any additional pain as a result. I am however kind of interested in
getting a more ergonomic mechanical keyboard for use at client spaces, to
preemptively combat the RSI risk. Was held off by the cost, however I guess
this means I'll be reading reviews of the TEK vs the Kinesis Advantage again
shortly. ;)

As a related issue, I believe back pain is just as critical as RSI. The only
way for myself to combat this is through consistently exercising. I ride
100-150km per week, mainly commuting but also MTB XC single trails whenever
time permits, and try to get my deep squats, deadlifts, shoulder presses and
bench presses done 1-2 times per week at gym. Only riding isn't enough; I find
the gym work essential for fighting back pain, no matter what kind of chair I
use - which happens to be a Herman Miller Aeron at home, and some random chair
at work.

Long post, sorry. My final comment / tip will be to set up JustGetFlux for
those late night coding sessions. I'll leave it at that. :)

------
phloxicon
My wrist pain is so bad I've had to change profession. Nevertheless, computers
are used in every job. At first, ergonomic keyboards and mice were enough.
Then any kind of mice was too painful. Then I became fully ambidextrous,
writing and using mice with left hand. After I maxed out the pain in that
hand, I've moved onto tablets. I find almost no pain typing on a Swype
keyboard on my tablet.

I got Samsung Note 12.2 2014 pro because it has a huge screen. If I need to do
a small amount of programming, I use Splashtop to accept Swype input into my
Windows laptop just across the room.

If anyone has better ideas for an extreme case of RSI, please let me know.
Thanks.

~~~
therealunreal
Not as bad as you describe but there was a period when I used to click a lot
(in a game) for many hours a day until it became painful. I used AutoHotkey to
remap Ctrl and Alt to left and right click respectively and that was it. I'm
not saying it's enough but it may help.

------
singularity2001
This is exactly what 'english script' is created for:
[https://github.com/pannous/english-
script](https://github.com/pannous/english-script)

------
tluyben2
Despite my extreme (32 year long) computer use, I only had RSI symptoms when
using a mouse and under stress. Since I use my macbook trackpad and have no
stress, I can sit in any position for any time and do anything and have 0
symptoms. I am very interested in coding without keyboards etc because these
days I happen to think a lot more about my code before trying it and that
means I walk around a lot; sitting down or walking to my standing desk both
seem cumbersome.

~~~
colanderman
Are you a home-row typist? I am not (my hands float freely above the keyboard,
generally angled with respect to it, so my wrists are not bent), and I
attribute my 23 years of RSI-free near-daily computer use to being home-row-
free.

(Albeit, like you, mice started giving me trouble after about 8 years of
mousing. The problem was gripping while moving the wrist. Solution?
Trackball.)

(EDIT: Tangentially, I keep my eyes in shape with "preventative" eyewear: I
don a pair of (weak) reading glasses ~33% of the day to shift the focal point
of my monitor further away. Keeps eye strain at bay.)

------
analog31
Thanks for posting this. I've had a long standing tendency to get eyestrain
headaches from the computer screen, and when I was writing my dissertation, my
wrists hurt so bad that I couldn't finish my figures. Fortunately, an old
draftsman helped me out using pen and ink.

Today, as a musician, I'm quite conscious of the health of my hands and
wrists. When I hear musicians complain about wrist pain, I always tell them to
evaluate their computer use.

------
jamesgeck0
I started setting up Aenea back in April and got distracted with porting the
OS X server to the newest version of the client. Now that there's a working
server, I'll have to give it another shot.

In the interval, I switched to a standing desk and it did _amazing_ things for
my hands. I tend to slouch when sitting, and just standing while I worked for
several periods a day reduced the pain a lot.

------
stevenjohns
This was a pretty interesting read. One thing I can recommend for those with
RSI are Cherry MX Blue switch keyboards.

As someone with fairly severe RSI, making the change from my normal rubber-
dome keyboard over to the Blue Cherry MX switches about 2 years ago has made
things significantly better. The pain and discomfort is largely gone-- its
still there, of course, but its hardly noticeable.

~~~
billmalarky
I'm beginning to have some carpal tunnel pain brought on by heavy
keyboard/phone use and my weight lifting regimen. What is it about the Cherry
MX blue switch keyboards
([http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823201...](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823201040))
that helps with RSI? Just looking at it, it appears like it would be even
harder on my wrists.

~~~
_asummers
A "rubber dome" or membrane keyboard requires the typer to press the dome all
the way down to trigger the key press. On a mechanical keyboard, it is a
mechanical switch to trigger the keypress. On Cherry MX blacks greens and
reds, there is no feedback when you have pressed the key. However on a blue or
a brown there is a tactile "bump" when the press is registered. Critically
this happens before the key "bottoms out" or hits the bottom of the switch
groove, so you can release the key before that second strike occurs on your
fingertip. With the blues, the "activation point" as it's called makes a loud
click as well as the tactile bump, so as you get used to typing on them,
you'll release right after the click.

I'm not sure of the effects of mechanical keyboards with regard to RSI, but if
you're a hard typer, they might help train your hands to not bottom out the
keys.

[http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2011/08/C...](http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2011/08/CherryMXBlue.gif)

[http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2011/08/C...](http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2011/08/CherryMXRed.gif)

[http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2011/08/C...](http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2011/08/CherryMXBrown.gif)

~~~
jamesgeck0
MX blue and brown keys also require slightly less force to press than a rubber
dome key.

~~~
melling
From the keyboards subreddit:

Red (45 centiNewtons, 60 cN)

Brown (45 cN, 60cN, tactile)

Blue (50 cN, 65 cN, click/tactile)

Black (60 cN, 80 cN)

Clear (65 cN, ?)

Green (80 cN, 105 cN, tactile)

[http://www.reddit.com/r/keyboards/](http://www.reddit.com/r/keyboards/)

------
querious
I can't recommend a browser extension like Vimium highly enough. It allows you
to browse the web efficiently without a mouse. Also: shortcat for navigating
OSX dialog boxes, and Divvy for resizing windows with the keyboard. I hardly
touch the gesture pad anymore (external one), and my shoulder thanks me for
it.

------
melling
Has anyone tried to add gestures, with a Leap Motion for example, to their
development process? A handful of subtle motions could be used to automate
some repetitive tasks.

~~~
michaeltbuss
Leap Motion isn't nearly as accurate as they show in their videos. I have one
and it's completely useless for anything more than a simple "swipe left"
gesture.

~~~
moron4hire
Agreed. It seems that the Leap, being limited in its field of view, forces the
design of UX utilizing it to strike a useless middle ground between broad and
fine movement.

However, I've started to experiment with combining the leap with a mouse--i.e.
left-hand over the leap and right-hand on the mouse--to control a single hand
grabber/toucher/pointer object. I assign broad movements to the mouse and much
finer movements to the Leap. It seems to work well, in much the way that arms
work for large motor control and wrists work for fine motor control.

------
JoshTriplett
Personally, I'd opt for Dasher:
[http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/](http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/)

~~~
nornagon
Have you tried using Dasher for extensive programming (or even regular text
input)? I used it a while ago when my wrists were extra bad one day and found
it to be pretty slow, and I found not being able to look at both dasher and my
text at the same time to be super limiting. I can't imagine it being
productive for code input, but I'd love to be wrong.

------
Dewie
OT: I've been thinking about getting Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Desktop
keyboard. Is it good?

