
What I learned from the Chinese about our Indian online market - pakhibagai
http://reverieinc.com/chinese-indian-online-market/?utm_source=ycombinator&utm_medium=distribution&utm_campaign=whatIlearnedfromtheChinese
======
dingo_bat
>We do not have enough respect for our Indian consumers.

This is clearly visible. You can take any area of business and you would find
bad customer service everywhere. The very few cases where customers are being
treated a bit better would fall into one of 2 categories:

1\. The company is a foreign multinational.

2\. The company is Indian, operating in an area of business which has foreign
multinational competition.

Any field which does not have foreign players has businesses sitting on their
asses, treating customers like crap and not innovating at all.

A big example is supermarkets. Big bazar, Reliance, More, etc are all
homegrown supermarkets but they offer little over regular mom and pop stores
or medium sized local supermarkets. Their prices are not significantly low.
The service is crap. They suck up more of your time because they don't have
enough cashiers. They refuse to innovate by introducing self-checkouts.
Nothing. It is as if they are waiting for someone like walmart to swoop in and
capture all the market and teach them how it's done.

~~~
pakhibagai
And then there is a 3rd category of companies: Startups that do well and get
complacent post funding.

Case in point: Furlenco

On supermarkets only 1 player seems to get it right as of now - Hypercity.
Maybe Amazon will kill it in the next 5-10 years

------
jagtesh
Excellent analysis.

> Access to higher education in India is available only in English ... this
> creates a general differentiation, an unwritten apartheid.

I couldn't agree more. Have always felt this without being able to fully
articulate what it was until now.

I've always felt having so many languages has hurt India more. I can validate
that Chinese people in the west can still think about heading back to China
and living in a place like Shanghai, without causing a dent to their standard
of living or salary expectations. It's nowhere near true for Indian expats. At
least not yet. I would argue (but can't confirm) this was part of the reason
why Punit Soni went back to US
([https://www.linkedin.com/in/punitsoni](https://www.linkedin.com/in/punitsoni)).

~~~
pakhibagai
"I've always felt having so many languages has hurt India more." \- why? Many
languages are dying in India and that's just sad - every language lost erodes
identities, stories, and diversity. However, more and more people are moving
to 'link languages' like Hindi, Tamil, Bengali etc. The challenge is to ensure
all local language users are treated equal in India

~~~
markdown
> very language lost erodes identities, stories, and diversity.

But they're lost because they've outlived their usefulness. Language is about
communication. A language with which you can only communicate with a tiny
minority of the humans on the planet is nowhere near as useful as a global
one.

I'm not sure how I feel about linguists and historians who want to preserve a
language in place. This gives them joy, but handicaps the children who have to
allocate limited resources to learning a language that is pretty much useless
outside of their villages or districts. You basically handicap children who
were already born into poverty just so you can say you preserved a language.

~~~
nindalf
You're not wrong about the economic utility of certain languages. However,
every language lost is a tragedy. This obituary explains it better than I
could.

Marie Smith, last speaker of the Eyak language.
[http://www.economist.com/node/10640514](http://www.economist.com/node/10640514)

------
ittekimasu
This so easily glosses over the linguistic apartheid in India (other African
countries incl.), that it's shocking. See my previous interactions with the
WASP imitations; I gather there are enough of them in India to form markets as
large as Japan (oth. unicorns like Flipkart wouldn't survive).

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12116787](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12116787)

A language without economic value dies eventually. It's likely that the
complement of the set is poor enough to not be of consequence (India's median
income is the lowest of the BRICS - ~ $600 per-capita).

India: you have bigger problems than the efficient milking of the population -
you need to feed the cow first. Irony of ironies, the country is apparently a
"socialist republic". It'd be interesting to know about the kind of
"intellectuals" sucking off of the Indian state's (imaginably fat) tits -
Chomsky mentions somewhere how post-modernism (the new religion in the
humanities), rids a population of desperately needed leaders.

Others: No India is not going to beat China economically, nor will Africa. The
former will probably produce enough clones and ship them your way for cheap
(profit!); the latter will continue in ignominy as its land gets stolen from
underneath.

(Update: Here come the downvotes!)

~~~
vertex-four
The thing is - every state in India has its own language, more-or-less. Either
you can translate into every single language at extreme cost, or you can use
either Hindi or English. Of the two, English is likely slightly wider-spoken
these days.

India doesn't have a language which you can be guaranteed nearly everyone will
speak. English is the closest thing for the classes that are being targeted
for ecommerce.

Aside from that... looking at your comment history, you seem to _really_ hate
India. Any particular reason?

~~~
ittekimasu
As someone who studies culture (as you can tell), my hate is reserved for the
neo-colonial entities and the bourgeoisie they cultivate to stay in power. If
you call such entities by the names the kakistocracies christen, then yes, I
hate most states in the global south.

India, like China, however was a historic center (天竺 - heaven axis they called
it) unlike most in the global south. To see it brought to the same level as
sub-saharan Africa is painful; to realize there are deep structural issues
that will keep it that way is even more so. Hate, yes, for the fat maggots
feeding on the dying corpses - but that too is a distraction, for it's not the
maggots' fault.

Rhetorical devices of the form "ah, but that's the our only way towards
progress", will not be answered to. I'm tired of worn narrative, you lot
bombard me with.

~~~
snovv_crash
Hasn't India always been like that though, with the caste system? Nobody
writes epics about the person who dug Arjuna's toilets, and so we see the past
through rose-coloured lenses.

~~~
gajjanag
Nobody has written epics about anyone digging someone else's toilets as far as
I know. This is not unique to the Mahabharatha or other Indian epics.

As for the caste system, yes, it has had a lot of evils. But then almost all
populations around the world have some notion of "class" that is loosely
defined, with its own set of evils. I fail to see how this is unique to India,
see for instance the topic of ghettos in medieval history. In modern times,
the "class" is usually based on financial wealth.

Furthermore, in the sense of classification based on profession (the
idealistic interpretation of caste), this certainly exists across the world
(merchant guilds, high concentrations of a single occupation like Harley St,
London, etc).

Finally, as for viewing the past through rose-coloured lenses, every historian
has his/her own set of biases in terms of coverage and emphasis. There are
some who are honest about the reality of this, such as Howard Zinn who
mentions it in his preface to "A People's History of the United States", but
many delude themselves into thinking that they somehow are magically
"unbiased".

With respect to works of fiction, the same applies. In the case of Tolkien,
the treatment of the orcs is an example, we never see an orc perspective or
pov. In the case of the Song of Ice and Fire, there is arguably little
treatment of the common population. Military engagements are reduced to the
standard historical style focusing on the leaders and "important" entities
involved. As for the Mahabharatha, similar issues arise. Nevertheless, it has
a surprising amount of depth and complexity in many respects (e.g morally grey
characters and a bittersweet ending).

~~~
otabdeveloper
> we never see an orc perspective or pov

Offtopic, but this is false. There's a whole chapter of orcish perspective at
the end of book IV.

~~~
gajjanag
Not a whole chapter, but yes, I had forgotten the exchange near Cirith Ungol.

------
avighnay
Here are some counter examples to the cynical uproar, I have specifically
chosen examples of entrepreneurship born in India (against ones re-imported
from the US and elsewhere)

Successful companies that created products for the local market. All examples
are from TamilNadu a southern Indian state. More such examples exist all over
India. Such examples are not possible without having consumer interest at
heart, Indian companies not respecting consumer interest is a myth in my
opinion.

[http://www.slideshare.net/SuganPragasam/chick-shampoo-
case-s...](http://www.slideshare.net/SuganPragasam/chick-shampoo-case-study)

[http://www.slideshare.net/Rushabh93/cavin-kare-and-chik-
sham...](http://www.slideshare.net/Rushabh93/cavin-kare-and-chik-shampoo-
rural-marketing)

[https://yourstory.com/2013/09/entrepreneurship-r-ramaraj-
seq...](https://yourstory.com/2013/09/entrepreneurship-r-ramaraj-sequoia-
capital-india/)

~~~
pakhibagai
Yes, the Unilevers and the P&Gs of the world did a great job at understanding
India and customizing their products. (And then Baba Ramdev came along with
Patanjali!)

Incidentally was on a call with the CEO of Scripbox today who mentioned that
he had to innovate his KYC/documentation process for the Indian market as
people wanted the convenience of having it picked up vs. couriering it
themselves.

However, getting back to the point - very few companies other than the FMCG
space cater to non-English speaking/ local language users in India.
Localization is key to India, but for some reason largely overlooked as of
now.

------
user5994461
If you look at the internet users per country:
[http://www.internetlivestats.com/internet-users-by-
country/](http://www.internetlivestats.com/internet-users-by-country/)

India has 462M people who can access internet at home, among 1326M
inhabitants. That is a less lot than what one would think at first.

Given that most companies reading HN are americans and some europeans. That
brings the question of should we bother for the Indian market (early or at
all)?

Cultural barriers + Language issues and translations + TimeZone + A market
which may not be that big and be fragmented or inaccessible

~~~
captn3m0
There are some issues with that claim (462M):
[http://www.medianama.com/2013/07/223-calling-the-bluff-on-
in...](http://www.medianama.com/2013/07/223-calling-the-bluff-on-indian-govts-
claim-of-485-6m-internet-users/).

~~~
user5994461
The page I gave is for July 2016. It states that a "user" is someone who have
access internet at home, at anytime of the day. No matter what device is used.

Your page is old and complaining that the number of 485M given in 2012-2013
was overinflated. That seems about right given that the last numbers are still
a bit under that by now.

On a different topic. Ut looks like only 10-20% of connections are wired (e.g.
broadband). The rest is wireless (probably mobile data)

That seems important to know if going for that market. (red: target phone, bad
bandwidth, bad latency.)

------
andrewvijay
That was a painful read. The thoughts that I have in my mind everyday looking
at the infrastructure while I ride my motorbike are just spilled everywhere in
this article. The problems are mainly with people electing poor leaders. We
cannot become a first world country with a third world leadership such as the
one we have now. Our leaders are busy causing communal riots using stupid cows
and caste systems , there is no way they are going to magically start working
for the country. The Parliament is filled with 70% rapists and murderers. How
will they work for the people.

Delhi seems to be doing good and the only hope I have is on that state. They
are one of the smallest states but have the highest investing education among
all states. That's the way to go. Nothing else will cure all this non sense
going on.

~~~
Ar-Curunir
Are you seriously citing Arvind Kejriwal as an example of a great leader?

~~~
andrewvijay
Yeah His ways are looking silly but the amount of opposition they get from the
central govt and how they perform against it is far far impressive. Let's all
agree that we know what is going on and not pretend like there is no malicious
intent from centre.

------
xyzzy4
A lot of people in India can write in Hindi or English, but not the local
language. They don't bother to learn how. For example my fiancée is a native
Telugu speaker but she can't write a word in it. There's also a very
significant amount of people who can't read or write in any language. It would
make using the Internet very difficult.

~~~
FraaJad
Hindi _is a_ local language. Those who can't write/read their own mother
tongue are the product of the aforementioned linguistic apartheid where the
city bred kids (I am one) attend a CBSE/ICSE curriculum that actively
discourage non-Hindi/English languages.

~~~
markdown
> Those who can't write/read their own mother tongue are the product of the
> aforementioned linguistic apartheid

You have two options:

a. Teach them a language they can use almost anywhere on the planet. A
language that documents most of the planets knowledge.

b. Teach them a language they can use in their geographical district and
almost nowhere else.

The powers that they'd be better served by (a). You might think (b) would have
been a better choice, but implying that (a) is akin to apartheid is
ridiculous.

If I'm forced to use the word "apartheid" to label one of those, I'd point to
(b). To teach the poor of india a language that handicaps them compared to
humans of the planet who take path (a) is to limit their opportunities and
keep them "in their place" in their little geographic corner of the world.

~~~
FraaJad
I can see this argument coming from someone who is privileged enough to move
outside their ancestral domicile.

Most people, even those born in the richest country in the world, seldom move
outside their state.

If I were to be treated like a second class citizen in my own place of birth
because some languages give a small percentage of the population "world
mobility", I would choose carefully.

------
Cenk
What’s with the weird scrolling on this site?

~~~
dingo_bat
No scrolling if you disable js. Had to use google cache to properly view the
page :(

------
geodel
With very low per capita income in India I think language issue is secondary.
Even if customer service were better and native languages supported on
internet based startups there would not be much opportunities or growth. To
put things in perspective it is 5-7% of top income people who come under
'middle class' in India.

Startups in India are mostly rich kids hanging out with other rich kids and
thinking wow seems like there are so many people like us who needs online
commerce and services and so must be great business opportunity.

I agree customer service and infrastructure is in very bad shape but one thing
many would not like to talk or admit is 95% of population is simply not in any
state to pay even very little for better infrastructure. E.g Indians whine
about poor telecom services while average revenue per user is like $2 per
month. So it is quite unlikely to upgrade infrastructure / services to decent
level.

Any infrastructure which once made available, accessible to all without price
discrimination will remain in bad shape for very long time.

~~~
pakhibagai
"With very low per capita income in India I think language issue is secondary"

Flip that around for a while. If the language issue was _made_ primary, you
could literally speak any language and have access to quality education and
higher-paying jobs.

Just read an article yesterday that said that 60 students were expelled from
the IITs - one of the major reasons being that they could not cope with
English as the medium of instruction:
[http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/educat...](http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/education/how-
english-is-playing-a-spoilsport-for-students-at-engineering-institutes-like-
the-iit/articleshow/53549766.cms)

~~~
geodel
How would you make it primary? It would take a lot more resources to have
services in multiple languages and resource are the big issue in first place.

From the article you linked:

> Apart from the language issue, the inability to apply knowledge to concepts
> is another reason why students fail.

I know it would be speculation but I think these kids were already below
average when admitted.

------
vivekpani
The comments and debates are overwhelming. I do not disagree with the debates
about teaching English and Hindi as a wider languages than one's mother tongue
that limits one to their village or community. But, English is also a choice.
With the choice being there, we still have many literates "not" in English.
More than half kids who join schools, drop out before they complete primary
education and yet, they are literate. If they study in English only, they do
not reach a stage where they can be comfortable with the language. Whereas, if
they are literate in their mother tongue, they read for the rest of their
lives. They read newspapers, magazines and also sources that can satisfy their
curiosity with knowledge. Language does help in trade. But, knowledge helps in
creation. Innovators usually do not get limited by language but can easily get
limited by lack of access to knowledge. Most non English countries (Japan,
Russia, China, Germany, Taiwan and many others) do not have anything much in
English and yet, do business with the rest of the world.

------
kome
Very interesting article, thank you... Gandhi used to say: "To give millions a
knowledge of English is to enslave them" [1], because "We ignorantly adhere to
their cast-off systems" based on education and status.

That's so true. I am happy to see businessmen and businesswomen that are
really starting to grasp the concept, without naming it.

[1]
[http://www.swaraj.org/shikshantar/resources_gandhi.html](http://www.swaraj.org/shikshantar/resources_gandhi.html)

~~~
ittekimasu
See, homo economicuses don't care whether cultures or languages die; you can
see this in the above "translation is not economically feasible .." sermons.
While that may indeed be true, the thing though is that with such deep
linguistic apartheid, the market and purchasing power in India will
essentially be limited to the colonial class - with a mass of underlings
bearing the currency and its inflationary forces.

Once the regime inflates itself out of existence for the sake of all those
suckling on taxes, revolution comes and all the nuts the squirrel accumulates
now will flee him. Like Mao's murdering mobs, that can bring great
destruction.

The horizon of the homo economicus, I fear, is not quite as far ahead as some
of us, nor is the French revolution as far behind.

------
sonink
>We do not have enough respect for our Indian consumers.

Stopped reading just about here. If this is what you China taught you, my
guess is you are good at making up lessons.

~~~
vivekpani
It is what I learnt. They didn't really teach me. I may have got stuff wrong
too. But, we have all sorts of cases with China. We have pretty bad products
that do not last and we also have some of the best ones. Apple phones that the
world trusts so much is manufactured in China. But, regardless of the
manufacturing, the digital medium where quality is not usually shrouded by
looks, China has created examples in India by overtaking some of the
established Indian businesses.

