
Ron Patrick's Street-Legal Jet Powered Volkswagen Beetle (2006) - panic
http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com
======
stergios
Ron is an old friend. He's a very sharp and funny guy too. Ron was on the
David Letterman show and Dave was cracking up while interviewing Ron right
before he ran his bug down the track at the old Altamont Dragstip
[https://youtu.be/XTzxptdvt3c](https://youtu.be/XTzxptdvt3c)

I always enjoyed visiting Ron's lab at Stanford and chatting him up. Between
talking with him and Fritz Rinehart at the other engine lab down the hall in
bldg 500 I always felt I learned something new about combustion.

Personally, I preferred his 572 hemi mid sixties Chrysler. Now that was a
scary car!

edit: spelling.

~~~
jgable
During my undergrad and masters, I worked for Chris Edwards, who took over the
IC engine lab from Fritz. It was a fun place to be -- running a single-
cylinder research engine and a chevy LS1 on the dynos, setting up a miniature
turbine engine and a hybrid rocket motor stand for the advanced undergrad
thermo class. I arrived too late to meet Fritz, and I never had the pleasure
of meeting Ron. I wish I had.

~~~
stergios
Hey jgable, nice to meet you. We must have missed paths in Fritz's lab. I
wrote the control software for that LS1!

~~~
oneiric
Hey stergios, I replaced your (DOS?) code with a modern aftermarket ECU.

~~~
stergios
Nice oneiric! Here's a screen grab from 1990 when we were breaking in the
supercharger.
[http://www.marinopoulos.net/gallery2/d/15735-2/DUMP0000.gif](http://www.marinopoulos.net/gallery2/d/15735-2/DUMP0000.gif)

It was a DOS program, written in C. Fritz asked me to write it for Windows
2.1, but I said: "no thanks, all I need is a frame buffer and a GPIB IO Card".
I made my own simple little graphics subsystem with fonts borrowed from X11.

Here's a little picture gallery I have of the ICE lab from 1990:
[http://www.marinopoulos.net/gallery2/v/Cars/StanfordEngineLa...](http://www.marinopoulos.net/gallery2/v/Cars/StanfordEngineLab/)

Enjoy!

~~~
jgable
Wow, what a blast from the past. When I first took the IC engines class, it
was in that lab from your pictures. During grad school I helped move it over
to the fancy new MERL building. I remember doing a project in undergrad to add
closed-loop control of equivalence ratio via O2 sensors to the LS1.

~~~
oneiric
I remember getting a wide band oxygen sensor and tuning the gain in the new
ECU (and by tuning I mean eventually realizing turning it all the way up
minimizes steady state error). When I worked with the setup, it had no
supercharger and was a lab demo for the newly reintroduced engines class.
(getting to be almost a decade ago, I should go visit) Did you guys do
research with it?

Speaking of engine research, kind of crazy what production engines do these
days: [http://www2.mazda.com/en/next-
generation/technology/](http://www2.mazda.com/en/next-generation/technology/)
[https://www.infinitiusa.com/now/technology/vc-turbo-
engine](https://www.infinitiusa.com/now/technology/vc-turbo-engine)
[http://www.etagen.com/technology/](http://www.etagen.com/technology/)

~~~
jgable
No, I didn't do any research with the LS1. That was just an undergrad project
for me, as a lab experiment for the engine class students to run.

Speaking of EtaGen (your third link), two of the founders, Shannon Miller and
Matt Svrcek, are from Chris Edwards's group at Stanford. I worked with Matt
quite a bit during undergrad. I knew Shannon but didn't work with her much
directly. They are doing some very cool stuff. Their generator been in
development a long time -- I hope it can go to production soon.

------
ebrewste
What a blast from the past. I actually worked in the same office park they
did. Hearing an afterburner blast when working late one night was quite a
suprise! I must say that it made my day to wonder out investigating only to
find a Beetle with a jet engine doing afterburner blasts :)

~~~
test6554
Did they ever get that baby up to 88 mph?

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narag
Jealousy. Not for the jet engine, YMMV I guess, but for living in a country
where you can do that. I've been doing some research for converting my old car
_to electric_. Bureaucracy costs more than double what parts+work do...
assuming it's possible at all.

~~~
radiorental
Reading between the lines, I don't get the impression he filled out any
paperwork for the ability to transport a fully functional jet engine on the
back of his otherwise totally normal 4 cylinder production VW beetle.

The fact it turns on, is bolted to the vdub and so forth... mere details.

Converting a car is a completely different kettle of fish. As someone who's
built a couple of personal electric vehicles I can attest, the US has plenty
of regulations of what you can do on the highways and byways.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
> As someone who's built a couple of personal electric vehicles I can attest,
> the US has plenty of regulations of what you can do on the highways and
> byways.

It depends. If you're starting with a rolling chassis that's already road
legal 99% of the work is done for you.

In CA you can drive a death trap as long as it doesn't pollute.

In MI you can drive a vehicle that burns tires and is lubricated with whale
oil as long as it has mud flaps.

It's not like some places in Europe where applying for a mortgage has less
paperwork than installing aftermarket control arms.

I mean, I'm all for less regulation for DIYers but we do have it pretty good
here.

~~~
lb1lf
-I happen to live in Norway. (Which is a very nice place to live overall, but can be somewhat challenging at times if you like to tinker with cars, for instance.)

I can apply for a mortgage online in thirty seconds. This is not an
exaggeration.

If I wish to replace the original control arms on my Land Cruiser with
something - anything - differing from OEM spec, I need to obtain paperwork
from the control arm manufacturer as well as from Toyota stating that this
will be fine, said papers will have to be brought to a control station where
the vehicle will be inspected, documentation perused and the change hopefully
being approved.

This process takes more than thirty seconds.

------
zaroth
Saw this linked in the comments yesterday, not surprised at all to see it hit
the front page today :-)

Love the pic of the cop scratching his nose wondering what to charge them
with!

The way this guy fucks around with jet engines really puts a B.S. CompSci
degree in perspective (and not in a good way!). Admittedly he did get a PhD
from Stanford.

Did he ever build his wife that jet-powered scooter?!

~~~
yitchelle
He sure did. Go back in and scroll right down to the bottom. There's an
awesome picture of it.

~~~
codezero
I didn't downvote you :( but I am guessing the reason people did (ugh) is that
the last picture is just the initial setup, and they want "real" finished
products, anyways, thanks for trying!

------
ada1981
"We get this a lot. A police officer picking at his nose while trying to
figure out what to charge me with. Notice the hopeful anticipation of us on
the right. We're rooting for him and offer suggestions but unfortunately, the
California Department of Motor Vehicles did not anticipate such a vehicle so
he's out of luck. Hmmm, the car has two engines making the car a hybrid so
maybe we can drive in the commuter lanes along with the Toyota Priuses. "

------
teeray
So the 11,000 CFM that it draws comes through the windows and the sunroof? I'm
sure they did the math, but it amazes me they didn't have to remove the
windshield to keep it running.

------
skookumchuck
> I have a PhD in Mechanical Engineering from Stanford University

I should refer to this article the next time there's a thread on HN insisting
that a college degree imparts useless knowledge.

~~~
stergios
Here's Ron's company: [http://ecm-co.com/](http://ecm-co.com/) He makes state
of the art ECM systems used primarily by the big auto makers.

~~~
senatorobama
Is he rich?

------
thomasjudge
Have to pick a small nit, not entirely correct to say that no one else has put
a jet engine in a street legal car, there was in fact a "production" jet-
engine based car 1962-64, the short-lived Chrysler Turbine (seen on "Jay
Leno's Garage", CNBC)

~~~
mr_toad
To nitpick a bit more, these engines would have had a secondary power turbine
added to produce mechanical power. This would have reduced the exhaust
pressure, so they wouldn’t have used a jet for propulsion.

Rover actually produced the first car turbine engines back in the 40’s.

[http://www.rover.org.nz/pages/jet/jet5.htm](http://www.rover.org.nz/pages/jet/jet5.htm)

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover-
BRM](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover-BRM)

------
tyingq
Doesn't mention anything like 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. I can't tell how well
the 1300+ hp translates into real world stats.

Impressive for sure though. Being reported to Homeland Security is funny.

~~~
stephencanon
Interview here: [https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/When-bugs-fly-Auto-
ge...](https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/When-bugs-fly-Auto-geek-hits-
highway-for-2498201.php)

Of particular note "you drive the car up to about 90 miles an hour and you
spool up the jet"\--it will just slide at lower speeds, and you will have no
control. So the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are just whatever you get in a stock
beetle carrying an extra 300 lbs.

~~~
tyingq
Ahh, so this bit of an add on only helps after 90mph?

Guessing he is single, close to it, or coupled with someone just as adrenaline
powered :)

~~~
stephencanon
The end of the article we're commenting on is literally: "here's my wife's
Honda Metropolitan scooter. She wants it to go faster than 40 mph. So I have
these two little JFS 100 jet engines and I am thinking how to put them on the
scooter."

~~~
tyingq
Good point. Guess he chose someone matched to his risk tolerance.

------
smoyer
I have a '71 Super Beetle (and aa '71 Karmen Ghia). Doubling the horsepower in
the car from the factory's original 38HP makes the car a bit scary ... I can't
even imagine that extra push in the back!

~~~
maksimum
You'd probably be fine, scariness overflow.

------
dangerboysteve
Forget the Beetle, his plans for his wife's Honda scooter sound way better.

~~~
lb1lf
-Agreed; there was something about the aesthetics of the scooter which just looked... ...right, with those twin turbines attached.

Looks like a Jetsons prop. Absolutely, positively beautiful.

Here in Scandinavia, some people have taken a more redneckesque approach -
pulse-jet powered sleds. These Swedish blokes look promising:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O-JWddgagk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O-JWddgagk)

------
userbinator
_The engine spins up to 26,000 RPM (idle is 13,000 RPM), draws air at 11,000
CFM, and is rated at 1350 hp. It weighs only 300 lbm._

This is a great example of why jet engines are used on planes - the power-to-
weight ratio is far higher. The original flat-4 VW engine used in the "old"
Beetle is already > 200lbs, and including the rest of the drivetrain is well
over 300.

------
Synaesthesia
“Air for the jet enters the car through the two side windows and the sunroof.
It's a little windy inside but not unbearable.”

------
pasbesoin
Nothing like the same scale, but for a chuckle, this reminds me of the New
Zealand fellow who build a small jet engine in his shed to cool his beer (or,
that's how I remember it...).

Um...

[http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/](http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/)

------
aeontech
Video link from previous thread:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJyAA0oPAwE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJyAA0oPAwE)

~~~
zaroth
“How fast can you go when you turn that baby on?”

“It’s hard to say, because I just pin the speedo at 140 miles and hour, laugh
hysterically, and then hope the cops don’t nail me.”

“Now, can you drive around the surface streets of California with that jet
engine activated?”

“You could do it, but I don’t know what would happen. My runs are at night.
I’ll leave the office late at night, and I’ll spool it up and nail it on a
highway, and then sorta drive back on the gasoline engine and... go to bed.”

A fine engineer, for sure!

~~~
mirimir
I wonder if some control surfaces would help.

------
devenson
That screen on the intake doesn't look like it can handle the 11,000 CFM that
engine is rated for.

------
joshu
I met Ron at a track day once! Very cool guy.

------
chivas
Wow, GTA V IRL.

------
dang
Discussed in 2009:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=831185](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=831185).

~~~
Ivoah
As of right now this post has the same number of points as the 2009 post.

~~~
dang
But much better comments!

