
Judge rules on taxi industry lawsuit: Compete with Uber or die - andrewl
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20150909/BLOGS04/150909863/judge-rules-on-taxi-industry-lawsuit-compete-with-uber-or-die
======
nzoschke
In SF I always use Uber over taxis for the better experience of hailing and
paying for a ride. But within the last year I notice every day how bad Uber
drivers are severely affecting the city for the worse.

So many uber drivers don't know how to safely park to pick up or drop off
passengers without blocking traffic. Drivers don't know the fastest or safest
routes to get around with other drivers, busses, cyclists, pedestrians and
construction.

I don't want to see Uber regulated to hell, but I would like to see features
of taxis required for drivers like signs on top of the cars indicating cars
for hire, and most importantly lots more training about road safety.

~~~
_-__---
There is potential for uber infrastructure to self-regulate - continuously
giving bad ratings to bad drivers will see them reprimanded in some fashion (I
imagine). I've had (mostly) good experiences here in Boston/Cambridge; any bad
experiences I've had have been documented with 1 to 2 stars and a quick
explanation as to why.

I admit that I have no idea how the reprimanding of drivers of the handling of
bad customer reviews is performed by Uber. Hopefully it's done in an honest
way.

~~~
bbreier
This is just hearsay, but I was told there is basically a minimum rating and
if they drop below it for any meaningful amount of time they are fired.

~~~
jasonlotito
How can I report an Uber driver who is not my driver?

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msandford
That's the problem with trying to value an asset that's granted by the
government. Just because they have acted a certain way in the past doesn't
guarantee that they will continue to act a certain way in the future. Spectrum
auctions could be considered similarly. One day the government could decide to
auction off tons more spectrum, devaluing the existing licenses. It'd suck
that they did that, and that in hindsight you paid too much for what you got,
but that's just the way it works.

~~~
x1798DE
It would suck for existing spectrum holders, but not for the spectrum
consumers.

The same thing happens with any commodities, anyway. If I just bought a
diamond mine and they discover a massive vein of new diamonds in an easily
accessible place, that sucks just the same.

~~~
gadrfgaesgysd
Ironically the diamond industry is controlled by a few large companies
inflating the price by artificially restricting availability.

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brightball
Taking a libertarian perspective here, the problem isn't Uber. The problem is
that the government tried to artificially limit the supply of cabs with
medallions, leading to entrenchment, lack of competition and no urgency to
innovate within the industry.

So innovation came from outside and it's blowing the whole thing up.

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grecy
It will be interesting to see if this pushes any traditional cab companies to
become their own "mini Uber".

i.e. sell all their medallions, get rid of all their regulations and expense
overhead, and just operate all their drivers like Uber operate theirs. At
which point competing should be easy enough.

I think we're at a very interesting point in the Developed world - in the 80s,
90s and 00s everything about our society became more and more regulated and
safety conscious (hotels, taxis, health care, education) meaning costs
skyrocketed, and the cost of entry to compete in those markets became
astronomical.

Now we're using technology to go back to way things used to be - less
regulation, less rules, (arguably) less safety. Spend some time in the
Developing world and you'll see their society still works like this - people
will let you stay in their house for a few bucks a night (airbnb), people buy
minivans then drive around picking people up for a fee (uber), etc. etc.

It's interesting we had to use technology to go back to the way things used to
be in these areas.

I'm looking forward to seeing the uber/airbnb equivalent for education,
healthcare, energy, etc.

~~~
toomuchtodo
> I'm looking forward to seeing the uber/airbnb equivalent for education,
> healthcare, energy, etc.

The total disregard for laws and regulations? Exciting. Fingers crossed Uber
burns up it VC money sooner than later.

It's pretty terrible when people on HN pine for the days of less developed
countries (no worker protections, no labor/safety regulations).

~~~
grecy
> _It 's pretty terrible when people on HN pine for the days of less developed
> countries (no worker protections, no labor/safety regulations)._

The Developed World can not continue with it's standard of living, it's simply
not sustainable. Something has to give.

The way I see it, services like Uber and airbnb can slowly chip it down to
something sustainable, or we can hold onto it until the bitter end when it all
comes crashing down.

Also, just because a job is offered with no worker protections, no
labor/safety regulations etc, it doesn't mean a person has to take it. People
vote through their actions.

~~~
toomuchtodo
> The Developed World can not continue with it's standard of living, it's
> simply not sustainable. Something has to give.

That's not true _at all_. How productive are self-driving cars going to be
with no drivers? And electric powertrains? Very! Why would a government allow
Uber to have a monopoly on that? They're government owned roads!

You can entirely continue to provide a high quality of life to citizens of a
developed country using automation and software.

Shall we continue to socialize the losses and privatize the gains in society?
Pardon me for being crass, but fuck that noise.

~~~
grecy
> _That 's not true _at all_._

Go and spend some time in the developing world, then you'll reevaluate that
statement.

What you don't see/realize is that we've simply outsourced slavery. The reason
your iPhone, etc. are so damn cheap is becuase there are slaves building it,
who have a standard of living way, way, way lower than yours.

I'm saying it has to equalize globally, which means our has to come down.

I cried when I visited the silver mines in Bolivia -
[http://theroadchoseme.com/potosi](http://theroadchoseme.com/potosi)

~~~
toomuchtodo
> What you don't see/realize is that we've simply outsourced slavery. The
> reason your iPhone, etc. are so damn cheap is becuase there are slaves
> building it, who have a standard of living way, way, way lower than yours.

Foxconn is replacing most of its workers with robots. _Most_ work can be
replaced with software and/or robotics in the next 5-20 years.

> I'm saying it has to equalize globally, which means our has to come down.

Completely disagree. Perhaps on meat consumption, and petroleum use (both
which need to decline across the entire world).

> I cried when I visited the silver mines in Bolivia

There are responsible ways for mining for the resources you need.

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6stringmerc
Hm, I'm both impressed and a little cockeyed at the ruling by regulators that
e-hails are "pre-arranged travel" for the purpose of defining the service and
noting its exemption from needing a medallion.

Oh I get it - that's clearly a distinction to hammer home for the benefit of
Uber. As the article points out, one of the competitive advantages Uber has is
the rapid pace of pickups in Manhattan - within two minutes. Quite a
remarkable achievement in getting the efficiency of "pre-arranged travel" down
to less than 120 seconds.

I wonder what the conversations around Melrose Credit Union were like when
they decided to, metaphorically speaking, put all their eggs in one basket.

~~~
arantius
It's not about amount of time, it's order of operations.

Taxi: already on the street, driving around, I try to get flag one down by
essentially luck. Pre-arranged: I contact you, tell you where I am, you
specifically set out to pick me up.

Pre-arranged is exactly how traditional car services have always worked. The
fact that improved technology means pre-arranged also can be fast is a good
thing.

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username3
Where was this judge for the Aereo case.

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andrei512
In Romania most taxi companies have their own app. This change started about 3
years ago.

~~~
username3
How's Uber doing in Romania?

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ihsw
This is fascinating -- as revenues for municipally-backed/traditional taxi
companies fall, we are starting to see municipalities raise fees on the taxi
unions to make up the shortfall. Oftentimes these taxi unions wield striking
as leverage in negotiations, a tactic which is rapidly losing effectiveness
and is generally counter-productive.

So the judiciary doesn't care for legal challenges against Uber,
municipalities are actively working against taxi unions, and consumers are
flocking to Uber in droves -- what is a unionized taxi driver to do in this
kind of political and economic climate?

~~~
throwaway1967
> what is a unionized taxi driver to do in this kind of political and economic
> climate?

Do the moral thing and step-down from their monopolies, and embrace
competition.

Why do you care about immoral people? Those who benefit from monopolies are
not above robbers who benefit from a temporary monopoly on violence to bilk
their victims.

EDIT: response to ishw (since my posts are being delayed):

The drivers that took credit in order to benefit from an immoral monopoly
subsidized by tax-payers had it coming. Public libraries are available and
anyone can learn where this road leads by picking up Economics in One Lesson
which is eminently readable and widely available.

This is like saying "this gang of robbers paid the government X dollars backed
by credit for the right to rob, and we can't put those robbers in a position
of defaulting on their now-worthless license to rob". Uhm, yes we can, because
the "medallion" they bought is precisely the instrument that makes it illegal
for everyone else to compete with them. In other words, a criminal is not
exempt from their crime just because they purchased the instrument, that
enabled them to commit the crime, with credit.

When you say "Taking the moral highroad is not an option here", therefore,
that's just a misinformed reaction to a situation that, as you correctly
noted, allows for no way out that isn't harmful to one or both parties. Which
is why this sort of engagement (monopolistic or monopsonistic) is to be
discouraged and why only voluntary contracts should be enforced by Law.

EDIT: response to mbreese:

Wow... your response is a complete non-sequitur to what I said.

~~~
ihsw
The article mentions most medallions are backed by credit -- that would mean
the drivers would be put in a position of defaulting on their now-worthless
medallions. Such investments would destroy their financial prospects for the
near future if not in the long term due to the exorbitant cost associated with
holding medallions.

Taking the moral highroad is not an option here. It's easy to advocate the
free market from afar, but not everybody is prepared to even begin
participating in the free market due to being financially shackled.

I was going to suggest that Uber operate a program of financial assistance to
taxi drivers looking to flee the credit-subsidized catastrophe bearing down on
them in exchange for multi-year employment contracts, but the collective value
of these medallions is estimated at _$10 Billion_. Yes, ten billion USD.

How would such a program work? Could it work?

~~~
bcoates
The drivers don't generally personally own the medallions. The medallions are
owned by companies who mortgage them to banks. The medallion collapse means
these companies almost certainly have negative value, and if the owner isn't
making enough money from it they'll just walk away. The bank will then have to
legally recognize what is already obvious (that the loan on the medallion will
not be paid as agreed, and the collateral is worthless). The bank may have to
call in insurance and some bank customers may take some losses. $10 billion
isn't going to break the bank insurance industry.

What about the drivers? They've already been fired, that's why the cabs are
sitting idle. There's no need to help the financial speculators.

------
serge2k
Sad thing is, it really shouldn't be that hard for them to compete with Uber.
It's a customer service issue.

* Don't make me wait huge amounts of time, especially without telling me. * Any driver who whines about taking a damn credit card should be fired immediately. Ugh. * Start treating customers well. Uber is hit or miss with this.

Far too often I call for a cab and stand around waiting for 40 minutes, then
get someone who drives like a maniac and is incredibly rude, and then when I
say I need to pay be credit card they whine and cry and outright lie to try to
get cash instead.

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davidf18
As a New Yorker, I am very pleased with the decision. The reason why the taxis
are not being used is not because of Uber but rather because the taxi prices
are set too high. The way to fix the problem is for the NY City Taxi
Commission to lower the taxi fares. With lower fares, more people will take
taxis, especially now that there is the new "Arro" app that allows for e-hail
of taxis.

Lower the prices, and more taxis will be in use. Simple economics!

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wehadfun
Could a maddalion holder accept Uber rides as well?

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amelius
So how much does it pay to be an Ueber driver anyway? Just curious.

PS: Über without the umlaut is spelled Ueber. [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C)

~~~
tarpherder
Company name, unfortunately, is "Uber". Not "Über".

~~~
SilasX
Yeah, that's always been a real head-scratcher for me. I see the umlaut in
maybe every third reference to the company, and yet they never used it in any
official capacity!

Worst case of hypercorrection I've ever seen.

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wehadfun
Does Uber pay fees to the Taxi Limo Commission?

~~~
bbanyc
Yes. In NYC Uber is a licensed car service like Carmel and Dial7.

