
Ask HN, Could online textbooks "reasonably" replace print books in high school? - te_platt
I'm on a parental advisory council for my daughter's high school.  At our last meeting we discussed spending $30,000 just to supplement lost or damaged books.  There are about 1500 students total.  The school has a large supply of computers and very good internet access.  I've been able to find various materials online, especially for math and computer topics.  Still, I wonder if it would be practical to encourage the entire school to move in that direction.  Does anyone here know of an internet site I could use as a resource or, better yet, an example of a school moving to online books?<p>Thanks
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jvincent
I believe we need to reinvent schools, that students need to be able to self-
teach using online dynamic material (as opposed to static textbooks). Teachers
would design courses from mashups and assist students individually in their
progress. Students would also have group assignments, team activities, etc...

A few links that should help you in your quest:
<http://textbase.com/Overview.html> <http://www.smarthistory.org/pop-art.html>
[http://www.chem.arizona.edu/~salzmanr/480a/480ants/physchem....](http://www.chem.arizona.edu/~salzmanr/480a/480ants/physchem.html)
[http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-07-09-open-
textb...](http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-07-09-open-
textbooks_N.htm) <http://www.math.gatech.edu/~cain/textbooks/onlinebooks.html>
<http://www.opentextbook.org/> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_textbooks>
<http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page>

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te_platt
Thank you. That is some good material.

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sgrove
I did some advocacy in a project that was supported under my last startup,
<http://www.opentextbook.org/>

A huge amount of the cost is in publisher fees rather than material cost. And
the quality is appalling at times - check out Richard Feynman's writings about
just how bad it can get (panels of textbook reviewers recommending books that
were _blank_ other than a book cover). The quality of online sources is great,
but physical books are going to be necessary for a long time.

To that end, check out connexions (here's a video detailing what it's about:
[http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/richard_baraniuk_on_open_...](http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/richard_baraniuk_on_open_source_learning.html))
for very high quality stuff. There are certainly some areas which don't need
expensive copyrighted textbooks.

Please keep us up to date on your findings, this is a topic dear to a lot of
the hn crowd.

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te_platt
What is the status of OpenTextBook? It looks to be fading out - latest post is
6 months old.

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Micand
I'm working through my high school chemistry, physics, and biology textbooks
in a self-directed manner, as I hope to challenge my provincial exams without
taking the associated courses.

Working from PDF copies of my textbooks has proven surprisingly comfortable,
and has offered benefits over their dead-tree brethren. Though my first read
of the material is usually in the paper version of the book (if only so that I
may escape my computer chair), my second note-taking pass is always from the
digital copy, for I've found taking notes easier when the material is on-
screen and adjacent to my text editor. Taking screenshots of illuminating
diagrams and inserting them into my notes is much faster than re-sketching the
diagrams by hand. The ability to search the book's text rather than thumbing
through an index is appreciated. The PDF version of my physics textbook is
made available on its associated Web site ( <http://physicssource.ca/> ) --
the electronic copy provided there is the latest printing, which resolves
numerous ambiguities and errors present in my paper copy's earlier printing.

The only downside I've encountered is the manner in which an electronic
textbook tethers me to my computer. In your daughter's school's case, I doubt
that this would prove a handicap to most students, so long as they were given
access to their textbooks outside of school. Ideally, the textbook should be
provided in an open format such as PDF or HTML -- not one of the proprietary,
DRM-encumbered formats favoured by some publishers.

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kqr2
For English classes, you can get most of the classics from:

<http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page>

Also, perhaps you can find some ideas from home school curriculums:

[http://www.dmoz.org/Reference/Education/K_through_12/Home_Sc...](http://www.dmoz.org/Reference/Education/K_through_12/Home_Schooling/Curriculum)

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iseec
Just FYI: there is non profit organization that try to adopt open source model
for development and creation of online textbook for K-12 curriculum, you can
read more at: <http://www.ck12.org/aboutus.html>

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CarolynM
You need to examine your school and students before you start making real
plans. Online or e-books are great, but if you're looking at $20 per student
for the line item you mentioned. You may need to spend a lot more on
infrastructure to make online books work.

How many families have computers at home? What kind of computers? How about
internet access. Do they have enough computer resources so each child has a
computer for textbooks access a large part of the evening? What kind of
support would the school be willing to provide, say if someone had a computer
failure at home, or difficulty using the specific book? Pay close attention to
any disadvantaged families, children in foster care or living in shelters,
etc. How would you make this work for them?

How are the existing textbooks used? Do students read them or do homework on
long bus rides to and from school? Do they attend homework or tutoring
programs at different sites? Do students do homework at school during breaks?
Are there enough computers available for "peak demand?"

How about in-classroom access, discussing literature in English class, or
looking up material during labs? How many computers do you need in each
classroom for this sort of use? Would a small number of in-class paper books
be enough?

I love e-books, but I also worry about the unintended consequences for some
students.

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pasbesoin
I'd just like to add that at the per page printing costs of more efficient
consumer class laser printers -- not to mention business/professional class --
self-printing hard copies of open textbooks could still be cheaper than
purchasing printed textbooks at the prices I see mentioned these days in news
stories. The current, large hurdle in this is color.

So, for black/grayscale print, your students might be able to have a printed
copy (in addition to electronic) while you still come out ahead, in terms of
cost.

I mention the consumer class printers really just to emphasize per-page costs
and perhaps with regard to one-off copies. If you are trying to outfit several
hundred students, you would probably want to farm the printing (and binding)
out to a professional, on-demand printer. I'm unfamiliar with what happens to
color costs in that environment.

My main point is that open textbooks may make economic sense, even without
dropping a computer in front of every kid.

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ozanonay
There's an abundance of _materials_ online, the issue is that they're not
collated or aggregated in such a way that a technically uninspired teacher
could effortlessly utilise them.

This is a problem that I and many others are working towards addressing.

"Textbooks" however, being books written to directly accompany a course, are
probably not going to constitute the prevailing paradigm online - they are
static and structured in a way that traditional printing required but modern
technology finds burdensome.

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te_platt
Any details on what you are doing? Anything I can do to help?

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ozanonay
Actually what I'm working towards is much like what jvincent is asking for:

"students need to be able to self-teach using online dynamic material (as
opposed to static textbooks). Teachers would design courses from mashups and
assist students individually in their progress"

Mine would be an interface for designing and delivering those "mashups".

I plan to release much of it on an MIT (or equivalent) license, so if you're a
python/django coder you can contribute code to it. Otherwise, your feedback
would be great, once I have something to show you - you can get in touch with
me through the link in my profile.

~~~
rokahn
We've built a document editor that might be suitable for reading (and writing)
textbooks. It allows the text to refer to figures and details within those
figures (e.g. "In Fig. 3, roller 22 is mounted on support 24.") It's
originally built to prepare patent applications (see teampatent.com and ask
for a beta account) but has wide applicability in other fields. It's
collaborative like Google Docs, runs on Amazon Web Services so it can scale,
and is built exclusively with open source (with a Python backend) so we have
flexibility on how to deploy it. I can't reach ozanonay at her website so
contact me at rocky at teampatent dot com.

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ez
Introducing CK12 Foundation: www.ck12.org. A non Profit that addresses this
very problem. CK12 is working on Free and Open text books under Creative
Common.

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kaens
Yes. I'd go so far as to say that it's inevitable given enough time.

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drhowarddrfine
So a student wants to look up a simple question on a math topic for a quiz or
test coming up in 15 minutes. She's sitting in a hallway and doesn't have time
to run down to the computer room to do this. Or the room is full.

Will students have access to the same material at home? What if they don't
own, or can't afford, a computer?

What is the cost of all this compared to replacing the books? Take into
account having to replace the outdated online material as often as replacing
outdated books.

I know I'm not alone when I say I learn much better with a book in my hand. I
can "scroll" faster, index faster, almost everything is just faster. Yes, you
can search on a computer faster but general reading is always more pleasurable
with a book in hand.

