
This Industry is Fucked - waffle_ss
https://blog.jessfraz.com/post/this-industry-is-fucked/
======
alaroldai
Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying
statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't
like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss."

And that makes me _so_ angry.

Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people
are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people
feel disgusted and threatened. That should be enough to tell you that even if
the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem.

(also, for anyone wondering whether the number of people affected really is
"significant", I would consider even one person to be a significant number)

I also get really angry at posts like "This has never happened to me, so I'm
sure it's all ok". This may come as a surprise, but individual experiences are
not universal. That something has never happened to you doesn't mean it's
never happened to anyone else.

And if you're getting tired of seeing posts like this, don't complain about
the people making the posts. Complain about the people harassing them. It may
seem counterintuitive, but the fastest and most effective way to stop posts
like this turning up is actually to make more of them, until the harassment
and abuse stop.

"This happens all the time" is never a valid excuse.

~~~
bsder
> Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying
> statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't
> like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss."

I'm tired of people whining in a blog post instead of calling the police.

Death threats and violence threats like this are unacceptable. CALL THE
POLICE. After a couple of high-profile cases put these kinds of assholes in
jail it will stop.

~~~
__z
What makes you think she didn't call the police?

[http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/women-arent-
welcome...](http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-
internet-72170)

"Two hours later, a Palm Springs police officer lumbered up the steps to my
hotel room, paused on the outdoor threshold, and began questioning me in a
steady clip. I wheeled through the relevant background information: I am a
journalist; I live in Los Angeles; sometimes, people don’t like what I write
about women, relationships, or sexuality; this was not the first time that
someone had responded to my work by threatening to rape and kill me. The cop
anchored his hands on his belt, looked me in the eye, and said, “What is
Twitter?”"

~~~
ajsharp
Glad you posted this. They mentioned this incident in a segment they did on
Last Week Tonight. The police are completely ill-equipped to deal with online
harassment, even if they could determine the identity of the attacker, which
they likely rarely can.

~~~
bsder
Most harassers really aren't that clever at hiding their tracks. Someone that
smart is probably doing something more productive with their life.

It's likely a simple request from the police for identity is probably going to
cough up the idiot.

------
pedalpete
I'm currently working in a team that is 50% women, and I'm amazed at how many
stories they have of previous work experiences and the culture of acceptance
in medium sized companies.

I hope Jessie doesn't give up. Not only for the sake of our industry, but also
for the sake of girls who want to make it in this industry and not have to put
up with what jessie has had to put up with.

Her (or any person) having to leave our industry because of any sort of
harassment hurts the rest of us the most.

Rather than going the law enforcement harassment route, is there any way we as
an industry can stand up for Jessie and the rest of the woman who are being
abused by a few assholes?

Just yesterday I met a friends niece who wants to become a game developer.
She's only 14 now, but what a shame it would be for her to give up on her
dream because some idiotic moron, mentally incapable of forming real normal
relationships, has ruined our industry for her.

This doesn't need police action (though nothing wrong with that), it needs us
to be outspoken and supportive. Maybe also a bit creative in how we handle
this. I'm all for finding ways of kicking these offensive guys out and
bringing more women in.

~~~
nightcracker
This _absolutely_ needs police action.

Regardless of what your stance is on unwanted sexual attention, sending death
threats is not acceptable.

~~~
corysama
Agreed. What Jessie is dealing with is classic internet trolls. They don't
give a damn about "Women in Tech", her or anything else. All that interests
them is finding a target to dig a reaction out of "for the lulz". They do it
because it gives them little endorphin pops to think about how upset their
victim must be and because it's very low risk. That's all there is to it. If
there was any perception of risk in their activity, they wouldn't do it.

Making it clear that "this is simply unacceptable" will only encourage trolls.
They aren't ignorant. They don't even have an agenda. They're simply selfish.
The only way to discourage them is to introduce concrete risk to the unwanted
activity.

~~~
aaronem
You're thinking about Something Awful around 2005, or 4chan's /b/ in 2007 or
so. That's not what we're seeing.

While I'm hardly a rigorous ethnographer of the Internet's cesspits, my (often
firsthand) observations suggest that "for the lulz" was never as significant a
motivation as it was made out to be, and it's less so now than then.

Too, trolling "for the lulz" tends to show a pretty typical pattern of high
intensity combined with short period -- people doing it just for fun tend to
get bored and wander off after a little while, save in the relatively rare
case of a high-value "lulzcow" who can be trolled over and over to good effect
(i.e., producing responses which lulz trolls consider funny.)

Meanwhile, the attacks directed at our female colleagues seem to vary widely
in intensity, but to occur over a relatively long period; sometimes it ebbs,
and sometimes (as for example in the wake of increased public prominence, such
as a conference presentation) it hits high tide, but pretty much all our
colleagues who've chosen to speak up about it have described it as an overall
ongoing thing.

That's not a characteristic pattern of lulz trolls; for one thing, they don't
have the staying power, and for another, lulz trolls actually _do_ go away if
you don't feed them. Instead, that's a pattern characteristic of people who
are doing what they do, not for its own sake, but as a tactic to advance some
purpose -- in this case, I think a reasonable surmise is that they actually
are trying to drive women away from the industry, by making it just not worth
putting up the bullshit involved in staying in it.

~~~
corysama
Maybe I'm wrong. Since I got bored of 4chan, I've only seen trolls when
they're being well fed --such as right now. I guess it comes down to:

Which is most likely to be the more prevalent source of the problem?

A) There is a small, but significant population of men in technology who
aggressively harass prominent women in tech and they do it primarily because
they want to actively work against the growth of female participation in the
general tech community.

B) There is a small, but significant population of people on the internet who
enjoy aggressively and anonymously harassing anyone they think they can get a
good reaction out of. Some of these trolls participate in the tech industry.
Their distant familiarity with prominent women in tech makes those women into
particularly fun targets.

The problem of aggressive, anonymous harassment in tech is almost always
portrayed as A). But, I believe B) is by far the more prominent source. This
misportrayal distracts the conversation from discussing real solutions.
Instead, it actually feeds the trolls by generating highly entertaining,
heated arguments where neither side is even talking about the real source of
problem: them.

~~~
snowwrestler
It is A, as the responses above, and hundreds of blog posts and similar
discussions have made clear. There are big disparities in the gender balance,
specifity, longevity, and personal nature of the attacks. And it happens to
women who are not prominent in any sense of the word.

I think you want it to be B, because you don't want to believe it's A. But it
is definitely A.

------
aaa667
And people ask why more women don't speak at conferences or at meetup groups
or contribute to open source software, or even publish blogs. It's because we
are SCARED. We know what the consequences of making our voices heard can be,
and it's terrifying, and we question whether it is worth the risk.

~~~
obstacle1
I think you're being a bit overbroad in speaking for all women (that's the
kind of thinking which leads to sexism in the first place). Frankly the
'consequences' here are receiving a bunch of unsavoury PMs. i.e., there are no
real-world, physical, dangerous consequences. So the fear of contributing to a
community because of it is unfounded. It's just a side-effect of Internet
culture, and it happens to men too.

~~~
nmrm2
The author received private messages saying that someone jerked off to a
picture of her at a conference and also photoshopped pictures of her full of
blood.

Those sorts of messages -- even in isolation -- have real-world, often
physical, consequences. This attitude that sexual harassment is only harmful
if it's a physical assault needs to go back to the 1950's where it belongs.

~~~
obstacle1
>Those sorts of messages -- even in isolation -- have real-world, often
physical, consequences.

No, in the vast majority of cases they don't. Trolls gonna troll, sorry. I'll
bet we can count on one hand the number of times Internet death threats have
led to actual deaths.

There's a reason authorities don't investigate or prosecute stuff like this.

>This attitude that sexual harassment is only harmful if it's a physical
assault

Sorry, what? How is a death threat sexual harassment?

~~~
bunderbunder
You're trying to move the goalpost here, and folks are right to not let you do
it.

If you think abusive behavior is OK, show some courage of your convictions and
just say it outright. Don't sit here playing word games that make you look
like a coward.

~~~
obstacle1
>If you think abusive behavior is OK

I don't think abusive behavior is OK, I just don't think Internet PMs or
e-mails even register above 1 on the 10-point scale of things that are
abusive. Sexual assault at a conference is reprehensible and must be dealt
with; abusive private messages are an uncomfortable consequence of
participating in an anonymous distributed network.

------
corysama
There is a small culture of people online who make a hobby of harassment. They
don't have an agenda. They aren't representative of anything. They're not
distinguished by being part of any particular industry, race, sexuality or
economic status. They are simply selfish individuals.

They do it because it gives them little endorphin pops to think about how
upset their victim must be and because it is a very low risk activity. That's
all there is to it. They don't particularly care about "women in tech" or
"women in gaming" to any extent beyond the fact that the controversy gives
them a hook they can latch on to dig a reaction out of their victim. Or
infinitely better: the press!

The only way to prevent this activity is to attach a small but concrete level
of risk to it. Quoting the article that chuckcode linked about Reddit's
"Violentacrez":

> "My wife is disabled. I got a home and a mortgage, and if this hits the fan,
> I believe this will affect negatively on my employment," he said. "I do my
> job, go home watch TV, and go on the internet. I just like riling people up
> in my spare time."

~~~
vonklaus
> There is a small culture of people online who make a hobby of harassment.
> They don't have an agenda. They aren't representative of anything. They're
> not distinguished by being part of any particular industry, race, sexuality
> or economic status. They are simply selfish individuals

I wish more people understood this. It is a big problem with no solution. We
can keep spamposting these tropes of #gurlgamers and #womenintech but the
problem isn't really that these arenas are overtly hostile to women. The
problem is that if you are in these arenas you are just more visible to the
type of people that enjoy harassing people. I think doxxing is one of the
biggest sins on the internet. Anonymity and privacy are fundamental pieces of
American and Internet culture.

Doxxing someone is really the only way to stop these things happening, and
even then they must actually care about what society thinks of them. Also, if
you are wrong you could ruin an innocent persons life. So no easy solutions.
Explaining tolerance and these angry women first campaigns alienate people
from the causes. They don't harass women and are normal people. The people
that actually do bad things couldn't care any less about this "education" and
the flamewars this stuff starts make it all the more funny to them.

This is an insanely hard problem to solve, and it might actually not be
possible to fix. The answer might be to have thick skin and hire a security
company to put alarms and cameras in your house. It isn't fair to someone like
the subject of this article that is an intelligent, attractive, hard working
person to be punished for having these attributes, but it is an answer even if
not a great one.

~~~
purp
There are no social problems so large that we can't fix them once we develop
the will to do so.

> It is a big problem with no solution. [...]

I imagine a lot of the country felt that way about civil rights in the early
1960s. Then
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964)
and
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1968](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1968)
... And while it's nowhere near solved, people don't regard cross-burnings and
lynchings as matter-of-fact daily occurrences anymore.

> This is an insanely hard problem to solve, and it might actually not be
> possible to fix.

I imagine folks in the mid-1960s thought exactly that of
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation;](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation;)
that folks in the 1860s thought exactly that of reuniting the states after
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_war;](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_war;)
and that folks in the 1760s thought that of the whole "How can we get the King
to listen to us and help us manage our colony in _our_ best interest?" until
we did
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence)
and
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution)

There are no social problems so large that we can't fix them once we develop
the will to do so. We don't develop the will until we admit that these
problems are tractable.

So let's fix it.

~~~
chuckcode
Completely agree that this is a fixable problem that we must resolve before
some "responsible" institution comes along and trades our freedom on the
internet for security.

I do think that there is an interesting twist for humanity though as we try to
move into a virtual space. Much of the social norms that are hard wired into
people to allow us to get along involve actual facial and other cues only
accessible in person. It will likely take some training and some time figure
out how to deal with each other remotely. There is a lot of work in psychology
looking at things like "social identity theory" that people have applied to
internet interactions (with some colorful summaries [1]).

I do think that many folks will be surprised in the future to find that the
internet isn't quite as anonymous as they think. There are only 7 billion or
so of us and google and others could process everything we've ever written in
an afternoon. Certainly a lot of folks have been surprised to find that their
emails aren't very secure and can hang around for a long time. If you wouldn't
say something to somebody in person then it usually isn't a good idea to say
it online as well with possible exceptions for concern for your own personal
safety when constructively criticizing the powerful.

[1] [https://vgresearcher.wordpress.com/2015/05/29/the-greater-
in...](https://vgresearcher.wordpress.com/2015/05/29/the-greater-internet-
fuckwad-theory-a-social-identity-approach/)

~~~
purp
Thanks for the link, chuckcode. Skimmed a bit and added to the "read before
bedtime" pile.

There's a lot of interestingness around anonymity vs. pseudonymity. From what
I've read and experienced, it comes down to how much you value a particular
identity in a particular context; from there, it's all about framing
incentives around the identity that you value. Violentcranz didn't value the
online persona enough that online incentives mattered; when he was outed by a
journalist, he valued the real life incentives enough to stop the online
behavior.

------
MollyR
I'm sorry to hear this.

But I want to add a counter statistic. I've only had pleasant experiences from
people trying to help me. The only shit I got in the industry was from a
business manager trying to push our team into a death march.

There are many factors out in there in the world. We need to put things back
into context, rather than just saying things like "Our Industry is fucked".

It feels like lately its too easy to forget the majority of people in tech
(i've found) are incredibly decent human beings both men and women.

~~~
aklemm
Focusing on the minority is important, and kind of the point of article. The
vocal minority in the tech world seem to be more unreasonably misbehaved than
other industries. Imagine a woman in the medical industry or energy sector who
gives conference talks and blogs...no way she's going to get this level of
harassment.

~~~
aklemm
Would love to hear an explanation of where I'm wrong along with the downvotes.

------
chuckcode
The level of abuse the author has endured is ridiculous and she certainly has
my sympathies. It reminds me of Louis CK's routine about why he doesn't give
his kids cell phones
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c))
which boils down to without seeing the other person they can't empathize about
the effect their words will have on other people. I can't help but wonder how
these pseudo-anonymous people will feel when they find out that they aren't
all that anonymous in the long run. When gawker unmasked "Reddits biggest
troll" Violentacrez he certainly had a change of feelings when he had to stand
behind his words and actions[1]. Freedom of speech is one of our most
important values and anonymity is an important source for social change and
equality for all. Using these gifts to rain down insults on others rarely
works out well though in person and likely won't work out well on the internet
in the long run either.

[1] [http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-
the...](http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the-biggest-
troll-on-the-web)

~~~
TTPrograms
I've sort of thought that this was a fairly consistent phenomenon since the
origin of the internet, and that as more and more people come online they've
been exposed to it and don't think it's reasonable. And to some extent they're
right - it's not reasonable. Unfortunately being a public figure, especially
by critiquing that phenomena, is going to attract more of that abuse.

It pains me to see people call that sort of thing an issue with the "tech
industry", though. Not that the tech industry is perfect, but that grouping in
the internet trolls with people who care and want to fix the things that do
need fixing is really counter-productive when you're trying to win a war of
hearts and minds.

~~~
marcus_holmes
It's not so much grouping internet trolls with the tech industry, but that the
tech industry is having a problem with its troll population.

This might be purely because we're the first out of the trenches... we got the
first trolls because we were the first to adopt online communication, and we
have the first gamergate because we're still ahead of other
industries/communities.

I think we need to associate this sort of thing with the tech industry,
because only then will we be able to fix it. Shrugging it off as "universal
behaviour" will just mean no-one tries to do anything about it. In order to
"un-fuck" this industry, we do need to accept that we do this. You (as an
individual) may not and I may not, but we as an industry troll our women and
minorities. And until we as an industry accept that we do this (and that it's
a bad thing that we need to stop doing) it'll never stop.

~~~
TTPrograms
>we as an industry troll our women and minorities

Is one person enough to blame the entire industry? Or two? Perhaps 10% of the
industry is trolling women and minorities. Is there any evidence of that level
of participation?

>In order to "un-fuck" this industry, we do need to accept that we do this.

This sort of ultimatum is exactly the thing that promotes hostility against
confronting these issues. If somebody wants to help, why do they also have to
take blame? It actively turns people away who refuse to take that blame. It
makes no sense.

~~~
marcus_holmes
OK, fair point. So you don't like taking blame for other people's bad actions,
even if those others are part of your community. I get that. We're also having
that discussion around Islam too.

But to my mind, this is what makes a community a community. If good things
happen we all share credit, so when bad things happen we all share blame. We,
collectively, respond to events together. And we police ourselves, which is a
form of taking responsibility as a community for the actions of a minority of
our members.

So yes, if one of us behaves like an asshole then we as a community take
responsibility for that, deal with the asshole, and apologise to the victim.

However, if one of us behaves like an asshole, and we as a community shrug our
shoulders and say "not our problem, some people are just assholes" then other
communities do have a right to say that we condone it, that we are at fault,
that we as a community are behaving badly.

That's how I see it anyway, and why I think we need to accept responsibility.

~~~
forgottenpass
Your post has inadvertently cemented how little sense of community I get from
being a "tech" person. Tech doesn't feel like a town hall meeting in a new
home I just haven't integrated with yet, it feels like commuting into NYC for
work and looking around on a subway car.

I don't know what shared credit or shame I take part in sharing that is
specific enough to identify with. Do we really respond to events together? A
decade ago I may have said yes, but now all the opinions I see getting play
are bog standard points plucked from the American political spectrum. Nothing
wrong with that pre se, it just indicates to me whatever tech was, it's too
large and/or too assimilated to have unique perspectives anymore.

The "voices" of tech are more and more often tech-adjacent rabble rousers or
wanna-be standard-bearers. I don't identify with them any more than I do the
corporate speech of big brands trying to play up the fact their core product
is software in an attempt to use the cachet of tech and make their corporatism
more palatable.

Over a decade ago I did have a sense of community in tech, but even then it
was a community defined by unreasonable passion in a corner of a subfeild. Now
that the headcount has exploded across the board, I'm supposed to own a non-
programmer troll on twitter, or micro-aggressions at an office more degrees of
separation away from myself than Kevin Bacon?

The only time I felt any sense of community in the last few years, is when
someone is telling me I belong to one and online harassment is my
responsibility.

~~~
marcus_holmes
Well the way this is playing out for the Muslims isn't great for them.

If the same follows for us, then any self-identified member of the tech
community will automatically be suspected of being an asshole by everyone
else.

I have no idea whether your plan to not identify with the tech community will
work. Maybe you're right and it's grown too much to be seen as a single
community. Be interesting to find out.

~~~
forgottenpass
But isn't Islam an counterpoint to your argument to hold the whole community
responsible? Or are you just making the detached observation that because it
happened to them, it can happen to us?

It's already happened to us, and it's not sexism (not that it would excuse
anything, but as far as sexist industries go in society, I think we're low
enough on the list to escape external criticism). It's the shocking elitism
and douchbaggary that has come to define "tech." If you're in NorCal, you
probably see it daily. Or if you really want some outsider perspective listen
to John Oliver's comedy routine at The Crunchies, it's pretty cutting.

And the best part, both with the sexism and the way tech startups business
models piss people off: the largest concentration of it comes from the "tech"
people who are really the tech-adjacent business folk that came to tech just
looking to make some cash.

~~~
marcus_holmes
yeah, just trying to spot parallels with other communities that have
"problematic" minorities.

I see the elitism and douchebaggery as part of the same problem, it looks like
a lack of empathy for others, though I don't know whether that's a cause or
symptom.

The sociopathic non-tech founders would get nowhere and be capable of nothing
if we didn't actively support them by building their stuff. We need to teach
more techies to say "no" to assholes ;)

------
vonklaus
This is less about the tech industry and more about the culture of the
internet. A loud minority enforce the culture of anonymity on the internet and
having a public presence will open one up to getting caught in the crosshairs.
Being a "public figure" has always opened one up to these sorts of things, the
internet has made the barrier of entry very low for spamming and threatening
someone. I don't see any solution to this.

~~~
MarkPNeyer
here is my solution :
[https://github.com/neyer/respect](https://github.com/neyer/respect)

~~~
aaronem
Got something for those of us who aren't mathematicians? I mean, I appreciate
you've put a lot of thought into this and I'm sure it seems perfectly sensible
to you, but expecting us mere mortals to determine our response to a given
situation by matrix multiplication is maybe expecting a little more than our
capabilities can afford.

~~~
MarkPNeyer
the matrix multiplication will be done behind the scenes; you can just pay
attention to the output: a number for each other person, saying how much you
are likely to respect them, given who you say you respect.

it's like a count: how many friends respect this person, how many friends of
friends, how many friends of friends of friends, etc.

------
chipx86
Kudos to her for standing up to it, but she should clearly never have to. This
kind of thing just shouldn't be happening...

I don't think I know anybody who does this to women. I really hope that's
because I don't actually know anyone who does, and not that people I otherwise
respect are secretly doing this. How would a person know, if it's anonymous?

Well, maybe a few ways. The question is, are these all actually anonymous?
Jessie's post lists messages on IRC and e-mails. I'd bet some people get
harassed on Twitter, Reddit, or other widely-used platforms. Some of these
people must be identifiable, surely? At the very least, some might be using
the same username/e-mail address across many services, and might end up using
one in relation to a job application.

The last thing I'd want is a witch hunt, where innocent people end up on the
wrong end of an Internet lynch mob. What I'm about to wonder out-loud might be
a bad or ill-conceived idea, but here goes:

Would it be reasonable/helpful/worthwhile to have some centralized place where
these kinds of harassments can be forwarded and grouped? E-mails with headers,
tweets with screenshots of the full context, IRC messages with Nickserv
registration info, etc., so that repeat offenders would have a form of
evidence (and I stress evidence) stacked against them? Some form of "witness"
system, where other recipients (Twitter users, IRC users, etc.) can sign off
that they saw this take place?

Basically, create a sort of tech industry predator list. Not everyone on there
would be readily identifiable, but maybe some would be. I certainly would
check it before hiring anyone, look up GitHub usernames and such, and it might
help give people who don't experience this a better sense of just how terrible
and prevalent this all is.

So, good idea, at least in part? Terrible idea with too much potential for
further abuse? Somewhere in-between?

~~~
thedudemabry
I'm going to avoid addressing the community-created offender registry idea,
because like you I'm not sure how to even begin evaluating its potential
harms.

But I think that law enforcement will inevitably create something of the sort.
Like John Oliver's harrassment video from a few weeks ago described, these are
real crimes being committed and the state has an interest in solving them. The
current weak link in prosecuting offenders is in training officers and
prosecutors to recognize that a crime was committed and in providing them the
tools to gather enough evidence for a conviction. And I hope we'll get there
soon.

Once there is a lower bar for and less social stigma attached to reporting
these crimes and having those responsible judged in court, there will be a
public record. So whether someone in our community makes a death threat in
real life or via Twitter, they'll face the same social consequences as well as
legal ones.

~~~
chipx86
Yeah, there is a lot of potential for abuse. Mostly hoping that it would spur
on some additional thinking in this area.

John Oliver's segment was great. What I'm unsure of, though, is how much a cop
can really do? The offenders are not necessarily going to be in the same
general area. They may not be in the same country. This would need to be
handled internationally, in some way, wouldn't it?

~~~
nmrm2
Law enforcement has done a pretty decent job at cooperating across
jurisdictions in their war on poor people who use drugs. I'm willing to bet
that, if they cared about the issue, they would find a way.

I'm also willing to bet a huge portion of these people are domestic.

------
88e282102ae2e5b
I just want to understand _why_ people do this. If some men were afraid of
losing their jobs because of a big influx of women I'd at least comprehend
(but definitely not agree with) that behavior, but it's a job free-for-all now
and seems like it always will be, so I just can't see what the motivation
could possibly be. If they're just pure sociopaths, why don't they harass men
this way as well?

~~~
AdeptusAquinas
Because they're insecure and want attention - if they can elicit a response
from her then a woman has acknowledged their existence. Or because they feel
innately that they are superior to women because they are male, and then cant
comprehend that she is more prominent than they are, which makes them angry.

Immaturity essentially, given teeth by the anonymous power of the net and some
distorted belief in freedom of speech (on the part of the companies that
should be excising this crap).

~~~
__z
> Or because they feel innately that they are superior to women because they
> are male, and then cant comprehend that she is more prominent than they are,
> which makes them angry.

[http://www.sorrywatch.com/2015/04/05/everyone-deserves-a-
sec...](http://www.sorrywatch.com/2015/04/05/everyone-deserves-a-second-
chance/)

Mo’ne Davis got famous for being the first girl to pitch a shutout in the
Little League World Series at 13. She also plays basketball and football - she
is very talented athletically. She appeared on talk shows and the cover of
Sports Illustrated. Disney announced that they were going to make a movie
about her.

A grown man (college baseball player Joey Casselberry) reacted to this with
the following tweet:

"Disney is making a movie about Mo’Ne Davis? WHAT A JOKE. That slut got rocked
by Nevada"

A grown man called a 13 year old a slut. A slut! Because she was getting well
deserved attention.

~~~
cafard
Athletics tends to support arrested development. I have a hard time regarding
a college baseball player, even one who almost certainly is taller than I am
and packs a lot more lean mass, as a "grown man." I do hope that the athletic
director at his school had a long talk with him that will make him think a
long time before doing anything remotely like this again.

------
throwaway3880
I used to engage to in this sort of behavior to some extent. I grew up with a
repressed sexuality and no knowledge of how to relate to women. Then, I
suffered endless social rejection. I spent all my time in front of computers,
and got good at programming.

We need to educate people (1) How to relate to other, respectfully (2) How to
get over their anger (3) Tell them this behavior is unacceptable

Tech has many misfits. There are many guys, who've spent their lives in front
of computer screens, and haven't developed healthy ways of relating to other
people. Yet, they can still be great at technology with the power that brings.

~~~
MetaCosm
Thank you. I have long wanted to speak to someone who admits to doing this
type of thing as it is very hard for me to understand.

I realize it might be painful to relive a bit, but would you be willing to go
into some more detail (it is a throwaway anyway). What did you do, what were
you thinking as you did it, and how could someone have reached you sooner to
do 1/2/3?

------
deelowe
This is terrible. Are scenarios like this really common? I work with several
women in the office, but have not heard of them dealing with such harassment.
Is our situation unique?

Either way, I hope this changes soon. There's no reason for acting like that.

~~~
thirdtruck
You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so
often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." Even
if you, specifically, are a genuinely sympathetic ear, they've likely been
burned too often to open up yet again.

~~~
Frondo
This, this, a thousand times this.

I have a few female programmer friends, and they only ever spoke about "well,
you know, not too many women in the field" in careful, guarded tones.

Until the Adria Richards thing happened, and I said something like "I don't
really think either of them should have been fired, but I also think it's
shitty how common those stupid sexual jokes are. I wish we could get past that
stuff."

And it was like they realized they could actually trust me, and started
opening up to me about actual specific stuff--like a constant barrage of
junior high sexual jokes, being talked over or ignored constantly (which
_never_ happens to me, a tall white dude), being hit on, being not quite hit
on but followed around and lots of awkward eye contact and vaguely nice
gestures that ends up adding to something as inappropriate as being hit on,
and on and on and on.

You know how they want to be treated? As people. But that's not really good
enough--they want to be treated as people, and they want their coworkers to
show maturity beyond what junior high school boys show.

Is this all male programmers? Of course not, not at all.

Enough that they have stories that could fill an afternoon?

Oh yes.

~~~
jazzyk
Please do not bring the Adria story again - she made a fuss because of an
adolescent joke she overheard two rows behind her in a private conversation,
which was NOT DIRECTED AT HER, and was not about females or sexual or any
other interaction with females. All the same while making crass jokes herself
in her social media accounts.

As opposed to this case, where some sickos clearly send very troubling
messages DIRECTLY ADDRESSED to Jessie. She should call the cops immediately.

~~~
Frondo
Aaaaand, our two divergent reactions to the Adria Richards story is probably
why these friends of mine (the female programmers) probably felt like they
could trust me with the stories of their experiences;

e.g. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong, I'm not going to try and
reinterpret their stories...I'm just going to listen.

~~~
jazzyk
I was not re-interpreting the A.R. story - the facts were what they were.
EVERY STORY about harassment (or threats or otherwise troubling behavior)
should be reported/heard, but putting the two stories we are talking about in
the same basket is not fair - Jessie's case is in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
CATEGORY - it is personal and threatening - unlike the other one.

------
Mithaldu
I have nothing but admiration and applause for Jessie's stance. I do hope she
does everything she can to get those perpetrating such deeds into the hands of
law enforcement.

------
bcg1
You can say 'this isn't a problem with our industry, it is just internet
trolls' but people outside our industry aren't going to docker conferences or
paying attention to presenters at them.

It might not be YOU that does this type of thing, but someone you work with
is. You know who I'm talking about and you don't shun them or expose them...
and until you do, author is correct, this industry is fucked.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
But how do any of us know what online presence others we work with have? I
don't pay any attention to what my co-workers do on their own time. They may
be jerks in quite a few arenas; it can be quite invisible to me.

~~~
bcg1
My comment does not apply to those for whom it does not apply.

------
shawnee_
_I’ve gotten hundreds of private messages on IRC and emails about sex, rape,
and death threats._

Not sure what IRC channels she has been hanging out in, or what her spam
filters are letting through, but this has not been my experience at all... in
10 years of contributing to OSS.

However, attractive female posts _videos_ (yep, even conference talk) on the
Internet, and attention ensues?

Maybe it's not an "industry" thing. Maybe it's something else.

[EDIT] -- Wow, thanks for the votes folks. The author wants to blame "the
Industry" for something that is not unique to the industry.

~~~
yoshuaw
Wow, you just downplayed receiving death threats to "attention ensues".

~~~
obstacle1
If I had a nickel for every death threat I've received on the Internet I'd be
rich. Death threats from Internet brigade squads are wildly different from
actual death threats you need to worry about. Hence the downplaying.

~~~
prawn
How do you tell the difference?

~~~
obstacle1
You don't worry about the difference because in practice you are more likely
to die in an airplane crash over the course of your life than to die at the
hands of an Internet death threat-giver.

~~~
prawn
I imagine that risk varies for those saying something other than the status
quo. Often those people are keys to progression of society. Charlie Hebdo
cartoonists, etc.

------
pnt12
I do not know the author of the blog but that's horrible. No one should have
to face that. Unfortunately, behind the anonimity of the internet, trolls and
disgusting people will harass pretty much anyone and there's not much anyone
can do.

Best of luck Jessie.

------
plorg
Given the responses I see here, it seems pretty obvious that this is a
'problem with the industry' regardless of whether it's a problem with or that
sprouts from the internet.

It seems evident that Jess has experienced terrible things in the process of
performing her job. That she would post so adamantly to her blog suggests that
the problem is not going away, and she is probably not receiving much of a
helpful response from the people around her, presumably including her
colleagues. The obvious implication is that as male-dominated industry, most
of her (male) colleagues are not familiar with the type of abuse she is
receiving and, when they hear of it, are dismissive, taking an attitude of
'not my problem/job description' rather than offering support or assistance.

If that doesn't make it an industry problem, I don't know what would.

~~~
shykes
Hi, I'm a colleague of Jess. I entirely agree with everything you said about
the industry as a whole. My thoughts in this thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836573](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836573)

But you should know that her colleagues (me included) take this super
seriously, and so does our employer. We are doing everything we can to support
her, and to make the attacks stop. We also want to contribute to fixing the
problem beyond this one instance, and are looking for the best way to do that.
If you have ideas I would love to hear them!

~~~
plorg
My apologies for suggesting that you would be callous and unsupportive of a
colleague in such a stressful situation. It's easier to understand how this
connects the industry to such abuses by bringing one's company into the
discussion, but you are right that it is unfair to you and her other
colleagues who I know no better than Jess herself.

But I'm glad to hear that you would take this seriously. And Jess sounds like
a hell of a person. I know it would be difficult for me to handle the kind of
abuse she describes.

------
ChuckMcM
Outrageous behavior, and I'm glad Jessie is not giving into it. I can't
imagine why someone would get death threats over being a female engineer.

------
astrocyte
This is not common and, given her focus area in tech, it just happens to be
more pronounced among those individuals. Ever heard of 4chan? All it takes is
one post of your info and you'll get a swarm of people descending on you...

Linux/open source is full of such individuals.

They do it to get a rise out of people and the internet is a nice anonymous
vehicle to do it under. Has nothing to do w/ the broader industry of tech and
more to do with a group of misfits who like to frazzle people for the lulz.

Get the police involved and keep these unfounded broad based attacks of a
whole industry to yourself. By making such statements, you're attacking people
unjustly and doing the same thing to others that is being done to you. Techies
are not rapist... I could care less if you're male/female. The industry is not
fucked. You just got trolled by some dweebs on the internet.

One pronounced incident and everyone is ready to cast stones at an industry..
If anything, this needs to stop. It's really getting old and, as someone who
does their best to value/see people as equals as a good number in tech do, I'm
getting tired of this sh*t.

~~~
Kapura
"Not common?" Really? This SEEMS pretty common.

And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's
obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men.
And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're
doing.

You say you're tired of this shit. How do you think these women feel? It's not
you writing the tweets and emails, but if you become complacent and say
"that's just how it is some times" you are a part of the problem.

Never stop fighting for equal treatment. Never say it's OK.

~~~
astrocyte
This isn't pretty common nor are any of the off the wall comments and threats
she's getting serious. It's called trolling. Have you been on the internet in
the last decade? If you're dumb enough to let someone get under your skin,
they will and will do so even more.

I'm a minority. Do you know the kind of shit I've had to deal w/ in tech. Note
the 'deal with'. Were supposedly in a society where women are demanding to be
seen as equals just as men are. Guess what men have to do ? Deal w/ shit ..
Shit we don't like on a daily basis. I don't get to create a blog post and
have a swarm of women running to my defense? Why all the white knights when
women have to go through shit? So, no.. there are standards that are still
there. Standards by which men by and large defend women and treat them even
above men.

I'm a minority (African American) in tech. Yes, please lets have a sit down so
you can tell me all about the kind of crap that occurs. I'm obviously
oblivious to it all and have no perspective.

It's not o.k but it's called trolling and this has jack shit to do w/ the tech
industry and everything to do w/ the clown assery that is par for the course
on the internet. So, I don't in anyway support her blog post. It is ignorant
and ill-informed. Just think about it... You think men making six figures at
prominent tech companies with a social life, a girlfriend, wife/daughters, and
moms are sitting around typing out death threats and rape threats to some
random woman in tech when they get home?

No. This is not common. It has jack shit to do w/ the tech industry and
everything to do w/ shock-and-awe trolling on the internet. It's 2015. Get up-
to-date with what's happening on the internet and stop running to women's
rescue every time they have to to go through shit. They have announced they
want to be seen as equals and treated as men are .. So, let them deal with and
overcome their own shit... trolling being the least of things to be all bent
out of shape about.

You disagree? Well, I guess some things haven't changed in society.. Namely
that men by and large are still quite protective of women and hold them on
high... Quite Contrary to what she and you are trying to portray...

~~~
astrocyte
lol @ all the downvotes I'm getting for this and the swift retracing of
upvotes of my initial thread due this extended commentary.

I would delete this but i'm going to let it stay... Just goes to show you the
depth of people's view on such issues. You want to go on and on about surface
issues and foolishness that has nothing to do w/ the root. Yet, the minute
someone brings up something real.. Oh no !! That's too much for you. Back to
regularly scheduled program of man/tech bashing/white knighting a woman who
was a victim of internet trolling and making all men out to be savages..

~~~
slater
Hahaha yeah, couldn't be that people are downvoting you for legitimate
reasons, no sirree! Can only be white-knighting!

~~~
astrocyte
Engage in commentary then instead of anonymously pulling out your whiteknight
sword because I'm not towing the comfort line you're accustomed to. You feel
something was wrong in my commentary, hash it out with me. I'll respond and
hopefully a higher truth is arrived at. My main thread went from 11 upvotes to
-3 in a matter of seconds because I 'kept it real'. Only with one person
having the decency to engage me. That's not white knighting? Back up the votes
go

~~~
johnny22
people think your "keeping it real" is total BS, thus the downvotes.

------
shockzzz
The reason why "trolls gonn' troll" isn't an acceptable excuse is that
straight white men don't get told that people are jerking off to their
conference talks.

Just google "Kathy Sierra" and see why.

~~~
brickmort
just wondering... why are you singling out only white males? I'm a non-white
male.

~~~
shockzzz
Same reason I mentioned sexual orientation - they factor into how people are
treated. And yes, different permutations are affected in their own unique ways
as well.

For the record, I am also a non-white male.

------
shykes
I am a colleague of Jess, and have witnessed her dealing with this ordeal. She
is a badass and doesn't need anyone to speak on her behalf. But some aspects
of her experience are relevant to all of us and we have to talk about it.

1\. If this is happening to you and you haven't spoken to anyone about it -
please do. There is a specialized support group at
[https://www.crashoverridenetwork.net](https://www.crashoverridenetwork.net) .
Even if you feel you can handle it yourself, it will help spread awareness.
Part of the problem is that not enough people are aware of just how common
these attacks are.

2\. This is real. She is not making it up or dramatizing it to "get
attention". How incredible is it that in 2015 this needs to be said? In fact
she has downplayed the whole thing for months (months of continuous
harrassment!). At first I didn't understand why - but seeing some of the
reactions here, sadly, I think I understand.

3\. Yes, law enforcement is involved. Those people are breaking the law and
must face the consequences. The good news is that they are likely to get
caught. Unlike other forms of cyber-crime, this particular crime id actually
quite risky if the victim is determined and well-supported. The people
tracking them down are well funded and have a great track record. Speaking for
her employer, we will spare no expense to make sure the people responsible get
what they deserve.

4\. In addition to law enforcement, if you know of a _legal_ way to help make
those people regret what they did, please contact me. Our employer will foot
the bill - or if it's really too expensive for a single private company to
fund, I will find money elsewhere. Forgive my French but: let's make the
motherfuckers pay. This also applies to increasing the risk for future crimes
like this.

5\. It's true that this kind of trolling is probably not a product of the tech
industry itself. It is a deeper problem that will haunt us for some time, like
racism, drug abuse or road rage. HOWEVER, after reading some of the comments
here, without a doubt our industry is contributing to the problem through
ignorance and sometimes plain stupidity. If you're downplaying this as "just
trolling", asserting that gender has nothing to do with it, complaining that
women are getting unfair attention, or assuming the victim is just trying to
get attention: I'm sorry to say you are part of the problem, in the same way
that climate change skeptics are part of the problem. You are not voicing a
valid opinion; you are ignoring facts collected over years of research and
professional experience by people who know better than you. And in the process
you are forcing us to keep debating the reality of the problem, when we should
be focused on fixing it. So when Jess says "this industry is fucked", I say:
she is right. We're allowing our fellow technologists to be victimized right
under our noses, and we're basically doing nothing. So let's fix it.

6\. With the help of the comic artist Laurel (who has also experienced
harrassment) we made a T-shirt to raise awareness. We're going to print and
share as many as possible, but if you want to pribt your own, here's the hi-
res PSD: [https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ikdlu6gavn669l/s-dockercon-
harras...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ikdlu6gavn669l/s-dockercon-harrassment-
real.psd?dl=0)

~~~
delcypher
Doesn't look like it's been mentioned yet but there is very related project
called Online Abuse Prevention Initiative (OAPI
[http://onlineabuseprevention.org/](http://onlineabuseprevention.org/)). It
would be a good idea to talk to them in addition to what you are already
doing.

It was covered on FLOSSWeekly earlier this year
([https://soundcloud.com/twit/floss-
weekly-331-oapi](https://soundcloud.com/twit/floss-weekly-331-oapi)).

~~~
chroma
I would strongly advise against backing OAPI. The CEO & founder is Randi
Harper. Her online persona is quite hostile, and she is often the instigator
of online harassment. One of my acquaintances was the target of her ire. Her
e-mails and call-outs eventually caused him to seek psychiatric help,
including medication.

So while I support the goal of OAPI, I think the founding members have
attitudes that hurt the cause more than help it. I wish there was an
organization I could recommend instead, but so far I haven't found anything.
If anyone knows of alternatives, I'm all ears.

~~~
anthonyb
See points 2 and 5 above: you're part of the problem. In addition, labelling
Randi as a "harasser" is a common gamergate tactic.

~~~
chroma
I'm sorry if you think I'm part of the problem, but I don't see how those two
points relate to my comment. Heck, I agree with pretty much everything shkyes
said.

I didn't know labelling Randi Harper a harasser was a gamergate tactic. I know
almost nothing about this whole gamergate business. I just visited the OAPI's
site and recognized the name Randi Harper from my acquaintance's experience.
He had a very rough time because of her emails, Facebook messages, and tweets.
For that reason and that reason alone, I voiced my concern. I don't have any
other motive.

Digging deeper, I see that Harper herself has been on the receiving end of
some outright egregious behavior. I can only express my condolences for her
and condemnation for her attackers.

Still, it seems to me that her organization will likely cause more harm than
good in curbing online abuse. One can feel sympathy for another human being
while also doubting their fit for a position.

But honestly, this whole topic is radioactive. No matter one's opinion or how
delicately it is put, it gets misconstrued and pigeonholed. It's impossible to
have an honest, nuanced conversation.

~~~
anthonyb
So, the two parts:

2\. Unsubstantiated smears, and categorising her as "hostile". You're using an
anonymous "throwaway" account, so there's no evidence whatsoever for your
claims.

5\. Downplaying the _extreme_ harassment as "egregious behavior". Perhaps you
(or anyone reading) might want to go look it up yourself, there's pages and
pages of this sort of unbelievably obnoxious drivel:
[https://twitter.com/search?q=%40freebsdgirl%20%23gamergate&s...](https://twitter.com/search?q=%40freebsdgirl%20%23gamergate&src=typd&vertical=default&f=tweets)

The only reason that Randi created GGAutoblocker and the OAPI was because she
was targeted by gamergate. And their tactics are, essentially, what you're
doing right now - smear tactics.

~~~
chroma
Throwaway? My account is over 5 years years old. Please look at my comment
history.[1] I'm not a troll or a single-issue commenter. I use a pseudonym
because sometimes I want to say things that I believe to be true, but would
cause me unnecessary grief if attached to my real name.

"Egregious" is _downplaying_? I used one of the strongest adjectives I could
think of. Replace it with synonyms: their behavior is appalling, shocking,
atrocious, abhorrent. I do not support them. I think they are terrible people.
I cannot condemn them any more strongly than I already have. Please stop
insinuating that I'm part of such a despicable group.

I'm glad Randi Harper created GGAutoblocker. I support the idea behind OAPI. I
just don't think Harper is the right person for the job, as she has said some
very not-nice things to someone I know, and it significantly impacted his
quality of life.

I want the same thing as you: For people to converse without becoming targets
of harassment, abuse, threats, or otherwise extremely unpleasant or dangerous
communication. That's why I'm voicing my concern about the founder of OAPI.
There is no other motive at work.

As I said before: No matter one's opinion or how delicately it is put, it gets
misconstrued and pigeonholed. It's impossible to have an honest, nuanced
conversation.

How can I disagree with you any more civilly than I already am? Yet despite
such civility, I have to deal with implications that I'm part of an odious
group of trolls and psychopaths.

1\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=chroma](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=chroma)

~~~
anthonyb
Yes, I based that on what you put in your bio:

    
    
        about:	I use this account for things I can't say
    

Ok, fair enough, you want to keep HN and your personal life separate. And you
may be otherwise sincere (at least, you seem to be based on your posts), but
that separation makes anything that you post hearsay unless you can back it up
externally. You should probably take that into account when trying to bring
things from your personal life over into HN.

So perhaps rather than continuing the same pattern of "Randi bad, because I
say so", perhaps you can point out somewhere where she's currently failing? I
also note that OAPI is more than just Randi, there are several people
involved:
[http://onlineabuseprevention.org/](http://onlineabuseprevention.org/)

~~~
ectoplasm
I was curious, so I clicked on the Twitter search link you posted. This
conversation took place between between Randi and a developer (Johannes
Meixner a.k.a. xmj):

[https://archive.is/9KGyX](https://archive.is/9KGyX)

    
    
      randi> xmj: kindly go fuck yourself.
      randi> step the fuck back.
      randi> jesus fuck, are you a gamergater?
      randi> you are going on twitter and starting shit, and you just brought freebsd into it
      randi> and now you're coming after me with bullshit on twitter that you won't even back up
      randi> go. fuck. yourself.
      randi> xmj: you're a fucking disservice to the project.
      randi> and to open source in general.
      randi> except you decided to get involved and talk shit to me and talk shit about code of condcuts
      randi> i wouldn't have even known who you were had you not decided to be a dumbshit.
      randi> you're giving the project a bad name
      randi> and you should take it out of your bio on twitter.
      randi> you grow up, you piece of shit.
      randi> jesus
      randi> another privileged dumbass
      randi> whatever, dude. i'm emailing the foundation about you. they have a big push right now to try to get more women into the project, and your kind of public bullshit is the perfect example of why there isn't.
      randi> go fuck yourself.
    

All I can say is, hopefully Randi learns something about her own behavior from
the anti-abuse work she's undertaking.

------
ropable
Reading posts like this leaves me feeling angry (that it happens at all, this
day and age), bewildered (what kind of callous jerkwad sends death/rape
threats to a stranger over editorial content) and helpless (what can I do to
help or prevent this from happening further?)

I give credit that there is a problem. I genuinely want to help improve things
(my daughter might want to follow her old man into this field one day). What
can an unassuming white developer do beyond publicly stating "This is
unacceptable", and setting the right example of personal behaviour?

~~~
zallen
That is a very good start.

------
jrub
There are so many people in the tech industry that have no business being
there, that suck and have no passion, that are assholes and aren't willing to
teach newcomers. The fact that women in tech is an issue or that women get
harassed by men for being in the industry when there are more glaring issues
is an absolute mystery.

Men that harass women for being in the tech field are juvenile. If anyone
talks to my daughter like that, or sends her messages like that...God help
them.

------
rpcope1
If what she claims is true, it must take some rather large amounts of
wherewithal to continue in this industry, for which I certainly applaud her.
It's also rather hard to imagine or contend the manner in which many in our
industry behave; I certainly know that if my girlfriend or sister had been
treated like this, I'd certainly feel rather violently inclined (as human
nature often leads one to be) to end that behavior. You know, while I
certainly don't always agree with the spirit in which we try and enforce
things like diversity and often think that victim-hood is taken a little too
far, it's perhaps harder to understand the filthy, trashy and rather base
individuals that would treat Ms. Frazelle in this manner. It doesn't give me a
lot of hope sometimes for my gender or for our culture as a whole; my thoughts
go out to Ms. Frazelle that things get better for her.

------
ap22213
I've worked with some weird ass people over the years, so this post is, sadly,
not surprising.

------
jongraehl
1\. condolences for some horrifying abuse (please report to cops/FBI/etc) 2.
"this industry?" understandable feeling but really a wild accusation that's
part of a larger media craze. why shouldn't we analyze the horrifying behavior
described in terms of public figures and celebrity _in general_? what is it
about tech in particular? 3. conditional on "this industry" being worse than
others, are the causes of abuse toward women who are public figures different
from abuse toward men who are the same - relevant as we try to fix what is
broken in particular about "this industry" to reduce unexpectedly high abuse
toward women and/or men.

------
LGBT_2000
It's offensive how whenever topics of bigotry and hatred in tech come up, the
ensuing conversation is always dominated by regular commenters (typically
privileged white males) giving their two cents on something they've never
experienced and have no way of relating to. Here's a radical idea: if you're
actually interested in supporting and being an ally of women, people of color,
LGBTQs and other minorities DO sit back, let them speak and _listen_. DO NOT
inject your own unsubstantiated and unhelpful opinions into a topic you by
definition cannot relate to.

~~~
tomjen3
You are new here, so I will just say that this isn't tumblr and we do not
categorise people based on the color of their skin, nor take kindly to those
who do.

------
vparikh
I am convinced that this happens because the anonymity that the Internet
provides. And so the best way to combat this is to post the incidents on a
public site. Blow away the anonymity and these people will retreat like the
cowards they are.

I would set up a website where people can post these - sort of like the
previous F*cked Company website, but I would have to look into legal issues if
any that were relevant.

------
sterl
Sounds like some people need prison sentences.

------
owly
Forward their comments to the police AND their mothers.

------
505
Don't give up, Jessie.

------
eruditely
requires proof to damn an entire industry, give me a break

------
LGBT_2000
This is disgusting.

------
daodedickinson
Is it wrong to develop technology that facilitates this behavior?

------
Shamiq
that's so fucked. this sucks :<.

------
dummy7953
I'm convinced that there is a highly vocal group (of young men, most likely)
that are hell-bent on breaking Internet communities and even corporeal
communities with their grotesqueries. And when they're challenged, they howl
"but you're censoring my free speech!"

------
aaronem
Here's the part where I play a serious suggestion off as a joke, because I
know no one will take it seriously no matter how I put it:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBWbpTJRqk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBWbpTJRqk)

And here's the part where I address obvious arguments against it, to try to
save everyone some time:

0\. _You 're seriously suggesting that people who threaten, sexually harass,
or otherwise behave toward women in tech, in such fashion as to (at the very
least) necessitate posts like Ms. Frazelle's, should be doxxed, confronted in
person, and beaten._

Doxxed and confronted in person, certainly. But let's not lose all sense of
nuance; I think beatings for a first offense are a little disproportionate,
unless the first offense is itself exceptional.

1\. _This is vigilantism!_

No, this is a community choosing to police itself in a more vigorous fashion
than has previously been the rule. Vigilantes, historically speaking, tend to
(literally and figuratively) shoot first and ask questions later, if at all. I
think that's wildly disproportionate here, and that the mere suggestion of
potential real-life consequences, for this sort of malbehavior, will almost
certainly produce a remarkable change in the extent of bullshit that women in
our industry find aimed in their direction.

2\. _This is a problem for the police to handle!_

Let me know when they start!

3\. _Doxxing is a crime!_

Some actions which might be taken in the course of a doxxing attempt are
crimes, to be sure. But you might be surprised how much you can lawfully, with
a little effort, learn about someone who doesn't put a lot of thought into
anonymizing himself because, after all, who's going to come after him for
something as trivial as trying to chase someone out of an entire industry
because she happens to be female?

4\. _Assault is a crime!_

Oh, certainly. I think it's entirely possible to have a reasonable
conversation with someone, in the course of which is offered advice on
patterns of behavior which would be frankly better for everyone involved,
without trespassing into the realm of assault proper.

5\. _Battery is a crime!_

It sure is. And, of course, all dry sarcasm and deadpan humor aside, I would
absolutely never encourage anyone to commit a crime.

On the other hand, I grew up in a place and a time where anyone who behaved in
too excessively unacceptable a manner did so at risk of receiving more than
merely verbal chastisement from the members of his community; put simply,
someone who made himself enough of a stench in the nostrils of his fellows,
for long enough, could expect them eventually to respond to his misbehavior in
vigorous enough fashion to leave bruises.

In no small part as a result, the place and time where I grew up were, and the
place largely remains, known for the politeness and courtesy characterizing
social interaction there, and such methods as I allude to above are hardly
ever actually necessary in practice; for the most part, the simple knowledge
that such a response _might_ occur suffices to prevent it actually needing to.

Granted, very few in the tech industry have personal experience of such robust
social interactions, and I think I don't go too far in saying that there's a
certain squeamishness around the subject. On the other hand, given that
nothing else yet tried has worked worth a damn, I think we'd be short-sighted
to dismiss such ideas entirely out of hand.

6\. _Two wrongs don 't make a right!_

Perhaps, but I've never understood the perspective from which it is wrong for
members of a given society to correct misbehavior which fails to live up to
that society's avowed standards.

Of course, given the rather pathetic extent of our industry's accomplishments
in preventing the kind of behavior under discussion here, anyone could be
excused for imagining that, collectively, we don't give as much of a damn
about this kind of abhorrent behavior as we claim we do.

7\. _Women don 't need this sort of white-knighting from men in the industry!_

Perish the thought! Frankly, I am too often embarrassed and ashamed to admit
myself a member of an industry where behavior such as this is acceptable to
_any_ extent -- even by the people who actually engage in it. That I should,
even in jest, feel myself moved to write a comment like this one, is frankly
mortifying.

Put simply, if our industry were composed of the professionals we flatter
ourselves it is, I wouldn't have written this and you wouldn't be reading it.
If you feel yourself personally insulted by that statement -- good! You
should, because you, too, bear a share of the responsibility for letting such
abhorrent behavior run effectively unchecked.

There's too much of that behavior, too widely spread, for anyone to argue that
it's "just a few bad apples". Our industry has a problem. As members of that
industry, we have a responsibility to address it. Some of us are trying to
live up to that responsibility. Most of us aren't. I'd like to see that
change.

8\. _But this kind of response will just make things worse! Even if you do
confront this scum in person, they 'll just take it out on the women they're
already abusing._

That's not impossible, but I think it's also not at all likely. It's long been
recognized that anonymity is tremendously empowering, for good or ill; the
perceived absence of risk seems to be what drives a lot of the venom we see
directed at women in our industry. Too, if anonymity weren't a major enabler
here, we would see the people who spew this filth doing so under their actual
identities, and likely in public, as well.

That being the case, I think taking that cloak of anonymity away should have a
very strong effect on the people who engage in this kind of behavior. In
short, I should think it'd scare the hell out of them!

It's one thing, after all, to talk shit when you _know_ you won't ever have to
live up to it. It is quite another to talk shit when you can be reasonably
sure that you will. In my own experience, and in my observations of others,
this latter condition tends to result in a healthy degree of circumspection,
something I think is long overdue here.

9\. _But you can 't change people's minds this way, only their behavior!
They'll still find ways to mistreat their female colleagues -- they just won't
be able to be as overt about it._

True enough, but also an example of the perfect as an enemy of the good. And
besides -- honestly, if someone's an asshole enough to do this kind of shit,
he's _already_ using whatever other methods of abuse he has at hand. Just
because we can't take all of them away at once doesn't mean that taking away a
cheap, easy, and disproportionately filthy one isn't worth doing.

\--

And, of course, there are all kinds of hairy details I haven't addressed here,
not least because I'd like to think I can keep at least one or two people
reading all the way to the end. Lest we forget, this comment is written
entirely in jest, and any extent to which you take seriously anything herein
is entirely your responsibility.

Even if you think it's totally stupid and wrongheaded, though, I'd take it as
a favor if you respond by offering a suggestion which

a) hasn't been already tried and found useless,

b) offers some prospect of success, and

c) isn't just more of us all sitting around beating our gums about how
terrible this is, while largely not bothering to try to _do_ a damn thing
about it.

Come on! This is our industry. This kind of rampant shitty behavior is our
responsibility. It's up to us to find something effective to do about it, and
_do_ it. Sure, I've made a stupid suggestion, but at least I've made a
suggestion. If you want to tell me my suggestion is stupid, great! When you're
done doing that, make a sensible one.

------
tzs
Several thoughts, some reasonable and some probably stupid, split into
separate comments so the reasonable parts can be discussed and the stupid
parts torn apart separately:

~~~
tzs
Part 3.

Since the power that the attackers have in these messages is the reaction of
the recipient, it might be possible to turn this around. In part 2, I
suggested filtering and trashing (or sharing for research into de-anonymizing
the senders). How about going beyond ignoring the empty idiots and embracing
their idiocy?

Make a game of this. Have a scoring systems where you get points based on the
number of threats you receive a month, with bonus points for photoshops and
such. The person with the most cumulative points for the year could get an
award and a nice prize for being best at annoying internet idiots.

This is reminiscent of one way that the KKK was fought. The "Superman" radio
show in the late '40s ran a 16-episode story in which Superman took on the
KKK. They presented the KKK as an organization of ridiculous people with silly
and stupid rituals, and it greatly hurt the KKK.

~~~
tptacek
I think there is a material disconnect from your experience of "idiotic
harassment" and the experience of most victims of harassment. For many,
perhaps most --- bearing in mind that you don't hear lurid details of most
peoples' experience! --- it's not a game, at all.

------
pikachu_is_cool
> I’ve gotten hundreds of private messages on IRC and emails about sex, rape,
> and death threats.

Is this _actually_ true, or are you over-exaggerating? I know of other girls
in tech that are pretty decently well-known and don't get nearly that much
harassment.

But then again, they don't post their faces, so idk.

------
Kenji
I already thought this was something of importance, like, talking about a
bubble or concerning trends in the industry. What I got was an emotional rant
of someone who got trolled. Our digital media have more than enough
possibilities to blacklist the baddies, or even whitelist the people you want
to be in contact with. Don't look at things you don't want to see, nobody is
forcing you to.

~~~
lazzle
Bet I can force you to look at this reply

------
icu
I see a lot of comments here ranging from support to trolling... since this is
HN there is more support and (at last check) only one troll.

And that's really my point. No matter what, if you put yourself and your two
cents into the public domain this stuff is part of the territory.

Granted in a perfect world we wouldn't have such trolling or at the very least
there would be some authority doing online moderation and sanctioning. However
life isn't and will never be fair, let alone the fact that such policing of
the net is just not sensible.

So what to do really? Well I subscribe to the belief that an insult is an
agreement between two people, if I don't agree, it's nullified, it doesn't
even exist and I'm really not bothered.

Clearly this stuff is getting to her and after reading her blog post it really
seems like it's affecting her emotionally. At the risk of being blunt, I think
this will just encourage the trolls.

IMHO she either goes forward with a belief structure that deals with the
trolling or she (sadly) takes a break from being in the public eye.

~~~
jessaustin
You have a good attitude about insults aimed at you. However, many people have
lived lives that make such a healthy attitude impossible for them. I don't
think progress is served by saying, "well it sucks that little girls are
taught to stay 'safe' by taking the opinions of fuckwits seriously but I
didn't teach them that so tough shit!" I doubt there's a magic bullet, but it
would be better if we could build communication mechanisms that didn't expose
women to the vilest excretions of the world's collective mental sewer.

~~~
icu
Hi, well firstly it saddens me somewhat that you think I was suggesting that,
as you put it, "well it sucks that little girls are taught to stay 'safe' by
taking the opinions of fuckwits seriously but I didn't teach them that so
tough shit!"

Honestly for me it's not about sex. I believe men and women are in fact equal
and anything less than that is ignorance.

As for a 'silver bullet', there won't ever be one. Best I can do is teach my
son gender equality.

~~~
jessaustin
I'm glad that you're sad. You certainly did suggest that this person who has
reacted differently to trolls than you imagine you would in her situation
should "take a break from being in the public eye". If you think about it a
little you'll see why my paraphrase of your sentiment is pretty fucking exact.
Then you can change your mind and not be sad anymore.

