
A Million Engineers in India Are Struggling to Find a Job - wyclif
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2013/06/million-engineers-struggling-to-find-job.html
======
jmduke
Two things:

1\. This is incredibly anecdotal, but the half a dozen people I know who have
come from Indian educational backgrounds (specifically IT programs) did not
have much to show with their diplomas. These are all incredibly bright people
who seemed to start out levels behind their otherwise peers, and often rely
(as we all do) on online material to make up for gaping flaws in their
knowledge. From the source article:

 _Hiring is slowing down because recruiters are changing their strategy. "An
engineering degree is a poor proxy for your education and employment skills,"
says Manish Sabharwal, chairman of TeamLease, a temp staffing firm.

"The world of work is evolving... employers increasingly don't care what you
know, they focus on what you can do with that knowledge." While dozens of new
institutes have been established in the past six or eight years, he claims
that over a third of them are empty and perhaps they are "worth more dead (for
the real estate they sit on) than alive."_

This suggests to me that many Indian STEM degrees are not an adequate proxy
for value (just the same as many American STEM degrees.)

2\. I wish decentralized certification systems became a bigger thing.
Personally, I would love to be able to take a definitive test on whether or
not I knew Python well enough to spend forty hours a week working in Python.
Make it open notes and timed, like the real world is. I know this used to be a
big thing in the 90's, but that was before my time -- why did this go out of
style? Did the rapid advancement and evolution of the industry prove the
system prohibitively time/effort-consuming?

~~~
jey
It seems that most Indians who are knowledgeable and well-educated got that
way _despite_ the educational system, not because of it. Sure, a tiny
proportion of elite students have access to high-quality education, but
everyone else seems to be shoved through absolutely awful courses.

The worst example I've seen of this is that until 12th grade, Indian tests
consist _solely of reproducing memorized material_! I mean this literally: you
actually will _fail_ an exam if you write anything novel and don't just
reproduce the exact text printed in the textbook. So anyone who actually
manages to get some kind of understanding _and_ pass the course is doing
something above-and-beyond what the coursework prescribes, by both memorizing
the text _and_ working to understand it. Someone who learns nothing but merely
memorizes the textbook will get a 100%, and someone who comprehends and
retains the knowledge but fails to memorize the exact text in the textbook
will get a 0%.

At the college level there is a huge variation in quality. At one end there's
the Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) which are world-class and highly
competetive research institutions providing a truly top-notch education.
However, many students go to for-profit colleges that sprung up to meet the
huge increase in demand for education and come out with degrees of
questionable utility. These people are often of high aptitude, but were put
through systems where they were made to learn narrow material (e.g. upper-
division courses on Java 7 or Oracle 8i). This leads to the appearance of
success in the short-run with high paying jobs right out of college, but a
lack of preparation in the long-run (and a lack of knowledge of the lack of
preparation).

That said, it's not all bad. One could argue that while the grade school
education sucks, the higher-education system in India is actually far more
pragmatic than the overly idealistic American system. Trade schools and
practical job-oriented degrees are far more common in India than the US. In
the US we like to pretend that everyone is training to become some kind of
airy-fairy academic (with our liberal-arts degrees and theory-focused
engineering degrees), and yet we also want to pass everyone. We deny the
reality that most people are looking to acquire practical skills for gainful
employment. This leads to a situation where we shun practical vocational
training, and instead give everyone a diluted version of a pure academic
education.

Disclaimer: I grew up in the American educational system and have observed the
Indian system only through my family members and friends-of-family (and a
small amount of first-hand experience). I haven't experienced the Indian
system up-close as an adult, and I'm sure the above is tainted with a fair
amount of Western-centric bias where my expectations are simply miscalibrated.
I look forward to corrections from people who have actually been through the
Indian system.

~~~
eshvk
> At the college level there is a huge variation in quality. At one end
> there's the Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) which are world-class and
> highly competetive research institutions providing a truly top-notch
> education.

LOL, no. The IITs hardly do any research; they are undergrad mills just like
the rest out there in India. All they have is a bunch of incredibly smart
people who do research on their own, work their ass off to find an internship
abroad and figure out how to escape the system. The American system works far
better in taking a bunch of dumb high schoolers and transforming them into
engineers (personal experience, not statistically driven).

> Trade schools and practical job-oriented degrees are far more common in
> India than the US. In the US we like to pretend that everyone is training to
> become some kind of airy-fairy academic (with our liberal-arts degrees and
> theory-focused engineering degrees), and yet we also want to pass everyone.

The problem is not with the system; it is the people. A lot of people at
seventeen are stupid; the ones in India go blindly do whatever their family
tells us them to do (Engineering, Medicine etc); the ones in America make
decisions that a 23 year old working in a coffee shop probably regrets. I
would argue that less people need to go to school at that age and should
probably spend their time working in the real world before figuring out what
they want to invest time in school doing.

~~~
anuraj
In my experience recruiting engineers, I have found brighter candidates
outside the IIT system more often than not, who have invariably higher levels
of extra curricular skills that translate well into excellence in jobs. I am
afraid IITs are a mono culture that values academic achievement far more than
they ought to.

~~~
eshvk
I haven't; my interviewing of Indian origin candidates (with graduate degrees)
in the U.S. has mostly found their ability to think through solutions to be
uncorrelated with their undergrad institutions.

I doubt if the IITs are so drastically different from other institutions as
you describe them. First off "extra curricular skills" in the way they exist
in the U.S. (where an Engineer can take an art class, learn to row or learn
about constitutional law) don't necessarily exist in India. Secondly, the IITs
(from what people who went there describe it) are not that hard academically
on their students: It is fairly easy to do "relatively well". It gets much
harder to get perfect grades; it is that percentage of people where you see
the monoculture obsessively working all the time. It works out well though;
that percentage typically goes to do a PhD in the U.S. where that obsession
pays off well.

~~~
anuraj
As you rightly said, you can't take different stream courses in India, but
that is where ingenuity shows. People step out of their academics and achieve
proficiency in one or more unrelated fields - and since it is not so easy -
only the driven few do it - and what I meant is I see it happening more often
among non-IIT candidates - and they invariably turn out good. IITians I
believe get a (somewhat correct) sense of job security after course which
probably makes them focus only on academics. I have worked with many interns
from US (MIT and the like), India (IITs and non IITS) and have recruited many
- but my best interns and recruits always came from less privileged
backgrounds.

------
gexla
Finding a job is hard, but hustling and networking is relatively easy. Once
people figure this out, then the real global competition will begin. However,
I suppose not everyone has the personality to deal with people well.

The problem with a lot of job seekers (which I think is worse with Asians) is
they are too focused on the abstractions of that process.

The process in the U.S. starts with the K-12 system and learning habits from
the previous generation. It then goes into college, resumes, cover letters,
interviews and then the benefits of the comfort of a steady job and benefits.
Add to that the perception of success which includes things like the American
Dream, house, car, family as well as that steady job.

What people really need to do is focus on the human elements behind these
abstractions. A system which isn't running well is a tough nut to crack, but
people are easy.

Forget the abstractions. Do things which can land you the job without even
dealing with resumes, cover letters and even college. The college diploma may
help get you past certain gatekeepers, but a relative few will land you a job
all on its own.

Learn the art of hustling. Open up dialogue with real people. Build things
which attract notice. Work with others even if you aren't getting paid for it
(open source, help people fix problems.) Reach out through LinkedIn, Twitter
and other social networking sites. Find a good niche and then find the center
of conversation for that niche. Establish yourself as an authority. The list
goes on.

The abstractions have been around for a short time relative to how long we
have been bartering goods and services. What I love about a developing nation
such as the Philippines is that the downtown of a decent sized city is full of
people hustling for their daily bread. This makes me feel isolated and out of
touch when I'm working from home with only a computer, but I try as much as
possible to participate in the virtual hustle and bustle of the niche
communities I'm involved in.

Often I don't have a job, rather I have a gig that might be a few hours to a
few months. At any given time I usually have multiple gigs going. This is my
personal start-up. It may feel uncomfortable to others, but it's much more
secure dealing directly with people than it is dealing with abstractions. At
least I can get a yes or no answer from a human, I have no idea (and no
control) when I submit myself to an abstraction.

~~~
jmduke
_What people really need to do is focus on the human elements behind these
abstractions. A system which isn 't running well is a tough nut to crack, but
people are easy._

I think this is not only good advice about getting a job, but business in
general. Anyone's job -- employee, consultant, executive, whatever -- can be
abstracted into either make people's days better or making them less worse.

------
v33ra
20 years back, there were only few (say, 10~20) educational institutions (IITs
& Government colleges) around India that offered engineering degrees. So,
getting into them were really hard and only few of the bright students could
make it into these engineering colleges. And these institutions produced real
engineers, who are all now in higher levels at several tech/Govt companies.

Now, there are at least 500 'Engineering' colleges in my state itself
(Tamilnadu). Most of them were started by politicians just to make money.
Providing quality education is not their objective, but to lure the not-so-
bright students join Engineering after taking a huge money from him/her (they
call it as 'Donation', but it is mandatory).

So, when these students complete Engineering degree from these so called
'engineering' colleges, they are getting a degree just for the namesake. They
are not accumulating the knowledge like an IIT student. Obviously, they
struggle to find a good job without proper knowledge.

It is very sad that everything (education, health, even basic necessities like
water) has become a business in India. Money-making is the people's only
motive and they forget ethics. :(

------
lquist
This quora answer seems particularly relevant here:
[http://qr.ae/pxLHv](http://qr.ae/pxLHv).

tl;dr: The vast majority of "engineering" graduates in India are not worth the
paper their degree is printed on.

~~~
kaptain
It's not just Indian degrees. Chinese degrees are similarly worthless. Do not
confuse Chinese degrees with Chinese engineers; these are pretty much
orthogonal.

Honestly it's quite sad; living here in China makes you realize how awful an
educational system can be. It's not the worst system… at least I don't have a
way of verifying that its the worst system, but the lack of institutional
oversight into ensuring the quality of education (ie the system, except
perhaps at the highest levels, is a money sucking, rubber stamping, paper
printing factory) means that you have millions of individuals tasked with
building bridges when they can't be sure if they can build a table.

~~~
hingisundhorsa
It's not just Indian and Chinese degrees. We hired a guy who had a BA in
Computer Science (or something like Engineering Science) from Dartmouth (ivy
league!) who turned out to be incapable of doing real work. He had trouble
implementing linked lists and hash tables.

~~~
Aloisius
Why in god's name were you having him implement linked lists and hash tables?

(it is no excuse that he couldn't implement them, especially given you can
google tens of thousands of implementations of each in every language
imaginable, but I can't for the life of me come up with a reason to create
yet-another-implementation in this day and age)

~~~
enraged_camel
It was probably one of those retarded interview questions. "Show us how you
would implement a linked list because that's what you will be doing for a
living: implementing links lists!"

/rolleyes

~~~
Negitivefrags
The very nature of software is that you should only implement everything only
once.

Clearly, this is not conducive to creating a repeatable test. Therefore any
test must involve reproducing code that already exists.

If you are going to ask a candidate to reproduce code that already exists, it
stands to reason that you would ask them to create something for which the
definition is well understood in order to make the question fast to ask and
require little explanation.

Therefore a linked list or hash table is a good example of a practical coding
question. It's a good test to give you a negative result even if it's not a
good test to get a positive result.

~~~
enraged_camel
No. If you want a test to accurately predict the candidate's job performance,
it needs to be a work sample test that represents and is similar to the types
of problems the candidate will be solving at that job.

In other words, unless the job is literally about finding creative ways to
implement linked lists, then it is near worthless as an interview question. (I
say "near worthless" because there _is_ some value in seeing how candidates
respond when given questions that are obviously nonsensical or just outright
dumb.)

------
roansh
I have just appeared in third year finals in an engineering college, which
happens to be in India. So, I know pretty much about the way things work in
`Engineering institutes' in India. The thing is that, in about last 5 years,
number of Institutes have grown so fast that one wouldn't even imagine. The
year I took admission in my College(2010), there were about only two colleges
in the district I live, where, now, there're 6 colleges now! Most of the
politicians have realized that `there is so much money' in Engineering
institutes! The don't give a shit about Education quality. Having really bad
score in Entrance exam after 12th grade, I had no option but to take admission
in one of such a college. So, what these `leaders' do, is hire freshers as
professors (those who're unable to land a job as a programmer). They lack in
knowledge/skills. Next reason is that, most (almost 99%) of the students who
are pursuing degree have their only motive is to - secure their future by
having a good job. They don't LEARN. They `remember' things to get a good
score. That's their sole purpose. Because, they think having good score will
give them a good job. People can't LEARN things by just reading several books,
they have to USE things that they've read. Just to make sure if they are able
to use what they've just read (or learned). Currently there're about 80
students in my class. We had to develop a dynamic website as a mini project in
the last semester. Your people would not believe it, but 99% of the people had
it downloaded from Internet (or taken from some former student). Worst thing
is, they were only static pages. And even worse is, faculties didn't say a
thing while demonstrating those projects!!! I assumed the only reason that
could happen is the faculties themselves are utterly lacking in knowledge! In
second year, I wrote a simple packet sniffer and port scanner in C (again, as
a mini-project), the `external' professor didn't even see the code, he waster
almost half an hour asking me things about Packer Sniffer (He had no idea
about what that is!) The only reason I can think if this unemployment is the
quality of Engineers..

------
chunky1994
As a current undergrad from India who chose to seek an education abroad, I
probably have a unique perspective on this.

1) Yes, most Indians who graduate from their colleges often are lacking quite
horrifically in their knowledge as compared to a similar non-Indian
counterpart, primarily because the culture within the educational system is
largely based around acquiring short term knowledge and then never looking
back.

While in the Canadian system, I found it quite pleasant that everything is
gradually built from what you learn in your first year, the Indian system is
modularized and disparate, with large parts of what they learn forgotten in
their earlier undergraduate years.

2) There is a vast variation between the quality of universities in India,
however even the IITs are definitely not the same thing anymore. My father who
went to IIT gave me the impression that it was definitely a centre for higher
learning, where the students actually seriously thought critically about what
they were studying, whereas now (through the descriptions of most of my
friends and colleagues), they have been reduced to places where one no longer
has such a luxury, as their marks matter more than the actual knowledge they
accumulate; this wouldn't be much of a problem if the courses actually aligned
with real world problems, however the courses deal are largely tangential to
real hard work that one might see in academia or industry.

3) In contrast to this, American (Or Canadian) universities offer a much more
comprehensive education, and while definitely relying more on the initiative
of the particular student, they generally encourage independent critical
thinking, and don't place much emphasis on a number received from a three hour
exam. This I think is the crucial difference between graduates of these
universities and graduates from Indian universities, those who actually go on
to do something important would have had a much harder time in an Indian
university than a non-Indian one.

I should also probably state for completeness that I am not pursuing and
Engineering degree, and I am a physics major, however I don't believe that
makes much of what I have said irrelevant.

------
contingencies
Perhaps some Indians who have been through some of these institutions would be
able comment on this... my impression as an outsider from a few months in
India (including Bangalore, Chennai, etc.) was that its education systems,
particularly at the lower echelons of non-university courses, still heavily
target rote learning. I saw many advertisements for courses teaching specific
software; little evidence of broader education. Similarly, the HR market
seemed to have a certain post-colonial obsession shared with bureaucrats
everywhere - re: checking boxes and processing people as products ("you need
_< x>_ to be considered for _< y>_") rather than engaging candidates more
openly on the basis of real merits. This two-pronged attack on the individual
is what awaits the Indian graduate as welcome to a life of nine-to-five, but
is to some extent common to the impression I have felt in other parts of the
developing world. Perhaps my own experiences have been luckier, but where an
interview has been gained in Australia, the UK or US I have always felt that
employers were more interested in demonstrated personal capacity than a
candidate's nominal value in terms of third party paper accrual. On the plus
side, those scoring jobs in this sector in India do seem to be afforded
relative respect and income versus much of the population, so it's not all
bad.

~~~
eshvk
I graduated five years ago; my college (among 800) colleges in the southern
state of Tamil Nadu was one of the best among the private colleges. This meant
that the students in the college used to be so good at rote learning that they
used to get good grades in the statewide exams. This is how things work
everywhere; the only difference between the IITs and such colleges is that the
former had people who were more driven to be successful.

The average person who studied at these private colleges would invariably get
a job in one of the offshore development firms. What type of Engineer you were
didn't matter; the requirement was that you were able to do well in the system
of rote learning. Today, the pipeline is still flooded with people trying to
do the same thing; the only problem is that the offshore development firms are
more picky. They pick a small subset of those 800 colleges and hire people
from there. Those who are unlucky enough not to have predicted what this
subset would be 4 years in advance are fucked; they are forced to figure out a
new system of surviving, those that can do, the others become statistics.

------
jmspring
While this article particularly pertains to India, I think it can be seen in a
more broader sense. If you go into a degree program because of social pressure
or you think it is a path to a decent job, yet you have no real interest or
passion for what you are doing, you are likely to fail.

Even decent CS/CE programs here in the states have paths through them that
allow you to graduate, but at the end of the day, if you are going through the
motions, what do you learn?

Good engineers (and engineering students) use provided opportunities to learn
and if they are hamstrung by their environment will seeks out additional
learning opportunities.

Anyone who goes through the motions, has little excitement or interest, and
lacks intellectual curiosity is probably someone you don't want to hire.

~~~
michaelochurch
_If you go into a degree program because of social pressure or you think it is
a path to a decent job, yet you have no real interest or passion for what you
are doing, you are likely to fail._

I've often failed because I care too much.

If you actually like programming and care about doing your work well, you'll
probably struggle with authority throughout your career in the software
industry, and be utterly intolerant (were it not for being stuck in it) of
subordinate software bullshit by age 27 or so.

Ninety percent of the people out there are going through the motions and they
have much happier lives than the people who actually care, at least in most of
the places I've seen. Creativity and drive are good for the world, not the
individual.

~~~
jmspring
Michael -

I've read many of your posts and comments, and generally agree with a lot of
what you write.

Regarding caring, there are two types in this industry that come to mind --
caring about the type of work you do and continually improving your skills;
and caring about what the company you are working for is building and hoping
it succeeds. I was referencing the first. I have also gone too far down the
path of the second, to the detriment of my own quality of life.

Creativity and drive to better one's self is important. Expending
unappreciated/unrewarded energy for a company that isn't investing back in you
is a losing endeavor.

------
shubhamjain
You won't believe how bad the ground situation until you see yourself
happening. I have been in Noida since one month and some really awful things I
saw.

1) Low Scale IT companies are exploiting such graduates by paying them awfully
bad salaries to their employees especially Fresh graduates. In fact people are
not expecting salaries above 10-15K INR / month. To translate into better
perspective, this salary is marginally more than what a Pani-Puri stall may
earn.

2) Some people are being made to work for very long shifts (almost ~10hrs) and
also have the obligation to fulfill the any shift, may be night, evening or
noon.

3) Some crooked IT companies and code academies are offering training in ABC
and promising jobs after that period but once they get their sum, they train
them with cheap IT engineers and simply deny any obligation to get them
placed.

4) Joblessness frustrates people and grads start thinking of migrating to any
other city like Bangalore but the situation hardly changes. In fact, Bangalore
had become a low IQ hub from what I hear.

Certainly, the problem is with parents who got him enrolled into random
college into CS/IT branches because they looked promising that time, and with
grads who don't realize that some jobs are not for everyone and refuse to
widen their perspective.

------
kamaal
I wouldn't go and make blanket statement as saying 'Indian degrees are
useless'. But in most cases, its not just Indian colleges and universities. A
course only prepares you for an exam or at most clearing a interview.

No body teaches you to build things. This is something you need to learn. And
you need to learn it by actually building things. It can't be learned by
attending lectures, doing assignments, small time projects, passing exams or
clearing interviews. You actually need to go out, talk to people find the
problems they face and provide a solution to it. It needs to have definite end
goal, a tough timeline. And then when you go out and spend 17 hrs/day going
round in circles or failures-success, triumph, enthusiasm, joy, sadness,
arguments, debates, consensus. That is when you learn to build things.

When you learn to build things you realize, books, degrees, colleges don't
matter. In fact there is an opinion that most people college was useless, they
could have rather been spending all those years building something.

As an Indian, I started my official career working at a call center. Before
that I have done a lot of small time jobs. Its a journey. In India you need to
first work hard to create a opportunity then you need work hard on the
opportunity. At every stage, and even money was never enough. I am not close
to earning big money- But I've gone from attending reporting office at 1 AM in
the morning to staying up till 1 AM solving problems with software.

If you are not finding a job, get into what ever you can. Then start up on the
side. Learn to code, to build. Then make incremental progress towards that
grand goal.

------
denzil_correa
A small percentage of Indians fall into the higher income group while the
majority continue to languish in poverty without even the hope of a squared
meal the next day. One of most easiest way to jump from a disadvantaged
background to the higher income group is an engineering degree in India.
Parents want their kids to become engineers, doctors and chartered accountants
not because they think their kids love these professions but rather because it
gives them a ticket of sorts to ensure a safe financial future. The parents
aren't completely wrong as they themselves have spent an entire generation
struggling through the ranks to raise their children. They dream of a better
future for their kids than the ones they had. Once this realization set in,
mass engineering enrollments took place. To supplement these mass enrollments,
engineering universities were spawned which produced engineers like a factory.
Alas the break even point has come - the market can only support so much
engineering graduates. The over reliance of the market on service based jobs
coupled with the thought process which links an engineering degree to a better
quality life has led to the current state. Yes, things are changing - I know
of two best companies in the world who have set up their research labs in
India in the last 12 months but the change is too slow for the supply.
Something will give in, one point or the other.

~~~
sateesh
While I agree with most of your comment, your statement that majority languish
in poverty without even hope of a squared meal quite hyperbolic. Yes in India
poverty level is high, but it is not that dire as your above statement sounds.

~~~
harichinnan
A billion people in India live with less than $5 a day. 400 million live with
less than $1.25 a day.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India)

~~~
Sven7
What were they living on 20 years ago? Wasn't it less?

And yet magically a higher population growth rate was sustainable.

At India scale numbers are meaningless and highly subjective.

------
tluyben2
I am wondering if it is down for other 'outsourcing countries' as well. Like
Ukraine, Russia, Romania etc. I was working as an outsourcing consultant from
1996 until a few years ago and when advising or staffing companies, one thing
remained constant during that time; Indian made software/code quality was
always below (similar priced) east (and since the crisis also south) EU
coders.

Yes, I do understand there are exceptions, but in general, if I put a random
coder from India (living and staying 'forever' in India; people who moved to
the west score much better) with 5 years experience and a degree against, say,
a random Portugese coder with the same experience and a degree AND the same
price per hour, the PT person invariably wins on quality. Quality being, in
this case because i'm a coder, readability of code, use of tools, use of good
style, amount of code smells, etc.

So I would think the education system is not working well; my favorite pet
peeve is that bachelors/masters (in CS) from India, when interviewed,
generally have no idea what recursion is or how/why to use it. Which often
amounts to the most 'interesting' and unreadable code fragments you have ever
seen.

------
symr
In their attempt to find jobs, many jobless engineers are further exploited by
another industry - training institutes that promise placements and jobs. These
institutes offer courses on Java/.NET, SAP, Cognos, Oracle etc. They charge a
ton, their trainers are no good and the students gain nothing from these. More
recently, private engineering colleges are asking their students to base their
final year projects on IEEE research papers. And there is now a large number
of training institutes that offer readymade "IEEE Projects" to students for a
cost.

I happen to know many such engineers who are lacking skills or grades or both.
Some of these people happen to be distant relatives or family acquaintances.
The problem isn't just with the engineering colleges. Many such graduates lack
understanding of basic sciences to have studied engineering in the first place
(due to many factors including their own limitations, bad primary/secondary
education etc). Few who manage to learn enough to be "employable" are stuck
because there are no campus placements in their college. It is incredibly hard
to find a job if there are no campus placements. Companies don't have the
resources to go to every such college when most of the graduates passing out
are not employable.

I have been on the board of studies of two engineering colleges as an industry
representative for past few years. There is a meeting every year to revise the
course content but nothing useful comes out of it. In such meetings, I have
strongly advocated that we introduce more hands on assignments/mini projects,
ensure assignments/projects are not copied, lab exams are not based on a fixed
set of publicly questions (students already know these questions). In one such
meeting, suggestion was shot down with the excuse that if a mini-project is
introduced, another set of institutes will come up to help students work
around the system. Sure, preventing this would mean that the staff get their
act right!

------
wavesounds
I'm sorry if this sounds selfish or xenophobic but this is in all honestly
such a relief. I graduated college in 2008 and I remember being incredibly
scared all the programming jobs were going to be outsourced to India. I
remember blowing an interview trying to get the employer to prove to me he
wouldn't outsource my job then took the first stable job I could find (even
though I was never really happy there) for fear of not being able to find
another one. Now that we've made it through the financial disaster and
computer science jobs in this country is at an all time high I feel a giant
weight lifted off of my shoulders.

------
mannjani
I am a typical Indian engineer who has just recently graduated ( This Year)
and I am pissed off at the article.

1\. The original Economic Times article points that a large number of
engineers are struggling to get placed but fails to give any satisfying
evidence. 2\. The article also only takes in account the candidates that got
placed through college placement, it entirely disregards the engineers who may
have gotten job through other means or those who may have started a business
of their own. 3\. Compare the hiring data that is shown for two universities -
For IIT it is fairly consistent, For Amity, as the article mentions the
placements are currently underway in the institute so it is not final data.
4\. It says that India's IT industry will be hiring fewer people this year
however it doesn't take into account other Indian industries which saw a boom
in hiring this year - such as the Indian auto industry. In fact the article is
mainly or as I suspect solely based on the IT industry data.

To conclude I think the Economic Times article only convinces me of one thing
- rate of increase in engineers in India is proportional to it's population
growth rate which I should think is the natural course of things.

------
anovikov
Working with many Indian 'engineers', i can say we'd be better off if there
were fewer of them. Their typical approach to software development is
proverbial. I know there are good ones, but they mostly run their own
outsourcing shops, or are already in the U.S.

Maybe education is to blame in part, but mostly it's because of poverty. In a
first world country, one can pursue a lot of occupations ending up with nearly
same living standard - so the choice depends on one's attitude. If a guy is a
U.S. programmer you can be sure he does it because he likes hacking, there is
little reason to go there otherwise, a lot of occupations get the same living,
or better. In India there is little one can do except getting a non-
commoditized job for an export-oriented business, which mostly means
engineering. So crowds of people are struggling to get these diplomas simply
out of greed, with no passion for what they are supposed to do. I don't think
this can be fixed until India pulls itself out of poverty to give people more
career choice.

------
cies
How to qualify as one of the million "engineers"? By having a diploma? Or by
being a person who's engineering stuff?

I think if you are really "engineering stuff" in ICT on a daily basis that
soon enough you can attract some employers attention. Only passing the tests
for a school and having "core Java" next to "MS Word/Excel" on your resume
does not land you a job. Is that a bad thing?

Final note: I found that in India many families (often fathers) choose the
study direction for their children; this also grows engineers-on-paper that do
not really love engineering so much. Companies I know avoid hiring these.

Just my .2 :)

------
wavesounds
"Some end up in the US on work visas because the US citizens purportedly do
not have the right skills. In reality, there are plenty of skills here, but
foreign workers will work for a lot less. Since companies can hire a
programmer from India or Russia for 1/3 the cost of a US worker, that's what
happens."

This is what tech companies need to iron out before the American public is
going to go along with increasing H1B Visas

------
rvasa
A qualification/certification does not imply a good/useful/in-demand engineer.
What if the issue is with the education system?

~~~
akama
This mirrors my opinion, every country has subpar students. I wonder how many
of these students are actually quality engineers. Another explanation is that
they are graduating from institutes that are not demanding or preparing them
for real world challenges.

~~~
RachelF
It says nothing about the quality - there are just too many IT grads and
engineers. Salaries will drop.

~~~
feralmoan
Seems like a problem that will figure itself out over time, my experience has
been that the industry has a very high attrition rate for those who are under
talented. If you love what you do and actually possess skill the long term
prospects aren't terrible in any kind of way. Of course when I say 'talent', I
mean the strategic onus is on the individual to find higher profile work.

+1 problem with the education system, if the hustle is that CS is a golden
ticket or some crap like that. The gems will always shine and get snatched up
by more mature players.

------
logn
I don't think this is a reflection of the economy. It's a reflection of:

1\. the educational system

2\. the menial tasks outsourced to India

3\. the poor development practices of Indian companies

All of them lead to low-quality programmers. This is a problem worldwide as
well. I've been hiring as many people as I possibly can for the last 6 months
(worldwide, between $15 and $60/hr). I've hired about 5 people.

------
kenster07
This is the problem with selling education primarily as a means to gain
monetary wealth. You'll get lots of people who just want that piece of paper
at the end -- and this effect will be increased in countries where monetary
wealth is relatively uncommon.

------
anuraj
And yet when I look for a qualified developer, I need to sift through 50
resumes to land one eligible candidate! Such is the quality right now - and
few engineers have aptitude and expertise for job market.

~~~
wavesounds
Out of curiosity how do you define "qualified" and where are you looking?

~~~
anuraj
basic problem solving skills, familiarity with a mainstream language and basic
systems knowledge is what I look for in a fresher candidate. I only look
through alumni networks and intern forums and shun job portals.

------
btipling
> Since companies can hire a programmer from India or Russia for 1/3 the cost
> of a US worker, that's what happens.

This is illegal, so no, it's not what happens.

~~~
pseudorocker
Source? Most tech companies I've worked at here in the Bay Area have either a
few contracted engineers in developing countries for a reduced rate, or
contact with foreign firms that have very low rates. It's a global market,
man.

~~~
eshvk
There is a difference between contracting work offshore (which can be done for
pennies) to bringing contractors here (there are specific rules; the upshot of
which means that they are not as cheap as one might imagine).

------
hbharadwaj
My views on Indian sector maybe a little outdated and mostly Bangalore
centric, but here they are:

a. The IT and Outsourcing boom happened in the 2000s and the Indian IT sector
started outpacing all other industries and non-IT companies began to suffer.
For example, during the 80s and 90s, there was demand for electrical and
electronic engineers in state owned corps like BEL and there were other
players such as Onida, Dyanora and Kirloskar. Then globalization happened -
suddenly in came Infosys and Wipro with unheard of pay scales and they started
sucking in the talent. Foreign players came into the electronic appliances
space and non-IT companies began to lose talent heavily. They never were in a
position to compete with Samsung etc., and got completely wiped out. As a
result, in the 2000s, most engineers irrespective of their specialization
(Computer Science, Electrical, Civil) would go towards an IT space looking for
a job.

b. Indian IT is mostly service based. As a result, they are looking to
maximize value at all times. They don't care if you can't think on your own or
need supervision. As such, the idea is that if you are good enough to graduate
with an engineering degree, you are good enough to succeed in an Indian IT
job. There are no true technical interviews, there are no true behavioral
interviews. They are looking for molds. The same guys go on to become
supervisors and they in turn look for similar traits when they recruit.

c. I seem to be the only one always complaining about this but Indians in
general are not risk taking. They seem more content working for a Wipro or an
Infosys than taking the plunge to start their own companies. The problems here
are multi-prong. Parents are more focused on ensuring their kids success
relative to others. The whole thing is based on a giant mediocrity scale. As
long as I earn more than my friends or their friends daughters and sons,
parents are happy. Inheritance, wealth, prestige are far more important and
play a huge role in related incidents such as marriage, political influences,
etc., Part time jobs will get you treated like you are below the poverty line.
As a result, failure is not an option. Start-up mentality is non-existent in
most engineering colleges. In fact the whole setup is against startups.
Opportunities are extremely hard to create. The political hoops, the societal
hoops turn most people off. No start-up companies in turn leads to lesser
product based companies and more IT service based. And as globalization
progresses further, the cost differentials and the drops in quality cause a
progressive decrease in number of jobs outsourced etc., So, of course the job
market is going to suffer.

d. The last part is around the Indian Education system. I came from a pretty
good Univ and again, the whole thing was set on mediocrity. Labs were strictly
controlled. You couldn't use equipment when lab supervisors were not around
and they were in general never around unless they had a class going on. Most
programming courses I took hardly had any practical implications. I thought I
was terrible at programming only to later realize that it was taught to me in
a ridiculously stupid way by professors whose only knowledge of programming
came from Indian authored text books which in turn acted as guidebooks for
technical interviews to Indian IT Service Companies. So, it was a giant
vicious cycle. My final coding test was to swap a set of numbers using
pointers and I could never understand the practical implications of any of it.
My Professors used employment statistics for comparisons with other
educational institutions and between students and constantly emphasized how
hard work would get you through an Infosys. At the same time education hardly
costs anything compared to what is spent in the US. The Govt authorization of
educational institutions is a giant political scam in itself and requirements
are fairly minimal. So institutions are mostly ill equipped and are focused on
quantity than quality. You will never know your relative worth in an Indian
educational system because there is already a pre-existing mediocrity scale
for that.

~~~
abraham_s
>>>>by professors whose only knowledge of programming came from Indian
authored text books which in turn acted as guidebooks for technical interviews
to Indian IT Service Companies.

I feel that the difference in the caliber of the instructors is a major
factor. Majority of my lecturers were fresh out of college. There wasn't a
single one in the whole computer science department who has published a paper.
Compare this to the publish or perish situation in the US.

(I did my Bacherlors from a tier 3 college in India and Masters from a US
university.)

------
known
Indian education system is designed to create employees, not employers.

------
g9
Just let them struggle.

------
fakeer
Author takes into example two extreme institutes: IIT Bombay and Amity. They
are the extremes in quality. The former is from the upper part of the extreme.

 _What you need to open an engineering college in India?_

-Money and land. It's al right if you do not have adequate amount of land but you have money. [A]

 _How do you get the license?_

-You have to pay for it. Fees and then the mandatory bribe.[B]

 _Are all the engineering colleges(you can read_ tech schools _) are like
these?_

-Government - no, almost none. Almost all are good. They are usually free of [A] and [B] mentioned above and quality of education and students(at the time of entry) is exponentially better than most of private ones.

Private - 90% or more among these colleges can be simply labelled as garbage
even though they have all the shiny pretty campuses which actually few have.

 _How do you admit students?_

-If you are one of the TOP ones - {IITs - call them Ivy tier-1}, {NITs, IIITs - call them Ivy tier 1.5 - 2}, {some better private and Govt. colleges, maybe 10-15 in entire India - they range from Ivy tier 1.5 to 3} - then you admit students based on entrance exams and/or marks obtained in 10+2 exam(both are considered now).

If you are are among the rest then it's donation based. Donation is a form of
bribe/development fee or whatever you call it. You pay a hefty fee either
directly to the institute or through agents/crooks/thugs blah-blah and join
that institute to get a B Tech/BE[1] degree at the end of 4 years. A degree is
almost 100% guaranteed at the end of the year even though you can't figure out
_what the fuck is O(n)_ [2] and I mean just the definition without even
understanding it.

 _Do they get jobs?_

-Yes. Many(most of them) do. If not via campus selection then trying from the outside. Some get in 2-3-4 years. A friend of mine got a job 2 months back. 3 years after leaving the college. In the mean time he had collected 4-5 fake experiences and show a particular experience papers for that kind of jobs. There are companies offering this service they even pass background checks. Hiring is taken care by services companies. Forget Google, Amazon, MS, Fb, Start-ups blah-blah. It's Infosys, Wipro, TCS, Patni, CSC, Cognizant, Accenture. They hire in thousands. There are jokes in colleges like _this year Infy is coming with a bus or train_.

Their interview process is _great_. You are asked questions like "Do you have
a girl friend?", "Which city you would prefer to join in?", "and why?", "Who
is your favourite sportsman?" -> answer is a cricketer almost always,
"Favourite sports" -> it's Cricket and then maybe he will talk about it.
Questions like this. No, you are not interviewed for your coding skills. It's
just a luck or random game. Some get in some don't. Don't ask why. Earlier I
used to get angry why they don't check coding skills but then I realized they
don't need that.

So, students don't learn or enhance their skills because it's not needed.

 _What is AICTE then? Don 't they check it?_

-Well, other than the _officialese_ [3] it's a shop where you can buy anything if you can pay the right price. It personifies Indian bureaucratic corruption, _babudom_ and how almost every _system_ in India is rotten at the core/root and people are watering the tip or at least pretending to do so.

[1] Bachelor of Technology/Engineering and it really doesn't matter whether
it's an E or a T.

[2] I am a CS guy so I skipped Mechanical, EE, Chemical (&c) equivalents.

[3][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_India_Council_for_Technical...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_India_Council_for_Technical_Education)
\- offical website is down most of the time.

    
    
        tl;dr: Education in Indian engineering colleges is a farce that is why students don't get jobs when their skills are tested and they can't create jobs either. Skills again.

