
We Need a Massive Surveillance Program - tobr
https://idlewords.com/2020/03/we_need_a_massive_surveillance_program.htm
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actionowl
It was HARD to read through this whole article, but I did it anyway and I
totally disagree.

The argument that private companies are already tracking you doesn't exactly
hold up, you don't have to install Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Messenger,
Google Chrome, or whatever else on your phone. There's ways of limiting
tracking by private companies (not always easy for every user but there are
options).

~~~
MattSayar
I believe ENOUGH people have these apps for this approach to be effective.

What I don't understand about this article is that the author assumes the data
has to flow through a government entity. I don't see why the company holding
your data, eg Google, can't just have their own pandemic-tracking analytics
that they can publish for everybody, including the government.

~~~
raphlinus
Among other things, to be most effective there has to be two-way information
flow with public health authorities who do contact tracing. When somebody is
found to be positive, that info needs to propagate into the app and through
the likely-spread network. I believe that simply cannot be done by private
entities under the framework of existing health privacy regulation.

Similarly, when the tracking system identifies someone as high risk, they need
to be referred to testing by public health at the least. It also makes sense
that a high risk person be isolated or quarantined, and it's possible the
benefits of enforcing that through police outweigh the risks. If so, that's
clearly a government function, not something that can be done by Google.

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raphlinus
I basically agree with this. We've already collectively decided to give up our
surveillance / tracking information for the purpose of making ad targeting
more effective. I wish we had a competent, trustworthy set of institutions who
could take that data and repurpose it for stopping the spread of Covid-19.

Unfortunately, I am not very optimistic about this. There are also people who
would misuse this data, and how can we protect the institutions against them?
I wish the urgency of the situation could create the will to do this right,
but I'm not seeing a lot of positive signs.

Science had a related piece recently:
[https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/cellphone-
tracking-c...](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/cellphone-tracking-
could-help-stem-spread-coronavirus-privacy-price)

The takeaway I got from it is that some kind of bold action is necessary -
creating a voluntary, opt-in tracking app will likely have almost no effect at
all.

~~~
raphlinus
A few other thoughts I want to get across here (I've been thinking about this
a lot, and have started drafting a blog post, but probably won't post it
because I don't really have answers, only want to encourage people to ask the
right questions).

A computerized tracking system can't do a lot by itself. It needs to be
integrated into deployment of health care services, including testing and
treatment for people who get the virus, supporting a small army of people
doing contact tracing using a combination of low-tech and high-tech methods,
not to mention equipment and supplies.

Lastly, I'm surprised Maciej didn't bring up China's experience, as they _do_
have some of this surveillance in place, and it also seems to help them be
effective. I've been trying to learn more, but there's precious little in
English. There's a "mini program" that is deployed in Alipay called sui shen
ban (随申办), seemingly voluntary but with strong incentives.

I'm not what the best way forward is for the US, but I do strongly feel we
should be talking and thinking about it. If there is a tool that can help
significantly and we're not using it, that's a tragedy.

[1]: [http://www.smartshanghai.com/wire/wellbeing/how-to-get-
your-...](http://www.smartshanghai.com/wire/wellbeing/how-to-get-your-
shanghai-color-code)

------
cjbprime
You can do contact tracing without location surveillance:
[https://www.mobihealthnews.com/news/asia-
pacific/singapore-g...](https://www.mobihealthnews.com/news/asia-
pacific/singapore-government-launches-new-app-contact-tracing-combat-spread-
covid-19)

------
bitxbitxbitcoin
I am also a privacy activist and this post has really made me think about my
convictions. The most convincing argument here is that the infrastructure is
already there and already used by private companies for "bad," why not let the
government use it for "good?"

This is the crux of all technological advancements. I still truly believe that
a hardline for privacy is the only thing that will keep it alive. Everything
else is a slippery slope.

The Benjamin Franklin quote is still applicable:

“those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
safety deserve neither.”

The proposed actions are exactly giving up essential liberty to purchase a
little temporary safety.

~~~
raphlinus
Maciej includes that quote. He also proposes organizing the program with
significant protections and limitations. I know it's very likely politically
infeasible to competently create such a program, but I ask you: with these
protections and limitations in place, and if there is evidence that this
program would save many lives (in addition to getting the economy back online
more quickly), would you still be opposed to it?

~~~
bitxbitxbitcoin
I'd still be opposed to it on principle because no matter what protections and
limitations are in place initially, if they're put in place by a centralized
(aka corruptible) organization, they can just as easily be replaced or
removed. Even if there is evidence that such a program would save many lives
(and arguably such evidence is starting to come about) it still remains to be
seen whether those lives saved even out versus the amount of lives that would
be upended in the future because the "privacy line" has been redrawn. All
change is incremental, and we don't know what an incremental change away from
privacy as a basic right to be respected no matter what could lead to as a
next step.

It's entirely possible that even with all these considerations, a democratic
society still chooses to implement such a program. In such a situation I still
think it's necessary for someone like me to stick to privacy as a principle
even if only for the sake of philosophical discussion and keep parroting:
"We're on a slippery slope!"

~~~
raphlinus
Thanks for your thoughtful answer.

