
Video calls for Signal now in public beta - okneil
https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-video-calls-beta/
======
mirimir
Well, but ...

> But anyone testing the beta who links their iPhone to iCloud and wants the
> same level of privacy Signal has always offered should consider an extra
> step, too: Disabling a setting that uploads a call’s metadata to Apple. The
> beta upgrade to Signal will use CallKit, Apple’s framework for allowing VoIP
> calls like Signal’s, to be integrated more completely into the calling
> functionality of the phone. But that also means calls will be recorded in
> the iPhone’s call log and, for iCloud users, shared with Apple’s server.
> “iOS treats CallKit calls like any other call, however that also means some
> information will be synced to iCloud if enabled,” Open Whisper Systems
> warns. “This information includes who you called and how long you talked.”

[https://www.wired.com/2017/02/encryption-app-signal-
enables-...](https://www.wired.com/2017/02/encryption-app-signal-enables-
video-calls-new-privacy-tradeoff)

~~~
ycmbntrthrwaway
> This information includes who you called and how long you talked.

Given the recent shift from data to metadata protection, which is the only
justification for messaging centralization, this vulnerability effectively
reduces security to almost zero.

~~~
gepoch
At the same time, metadata collection via a gag-ordered pen register on Signal
is still possible in principle, this would just make it slurpable by existing
prism type tools potentially already operating on iCloud. Those truly
concerned with metadata should go to Tor, and not use signal, independent of
this feature.

I expect this is another case of UX/Security tradeoffs considerately made by
OWS. Having native OS integration is nice, and probably the right answer for
most users.

~~~
angry_octet
How feasible is call setup correlation when there are 10000 calls per minute
going through the servers?

------
weinzierl
This is great news. I'm on iOS but I hope it will come to Android soon.

I have a technical question:

> We immediately realized that protocols like SIP, which traditionally
> required holding open long-lived connnections in order to receive incoming
> calls, were not going to be compatible with the mobile environment.

Ok, so far so good.

> Instead we built our own simple REST-based signaling protocol [...], and
> used push notifications instead of long-lived connections to notify the
> client of incoming calls.

So, no long lived connection but a "simple REST-based signaling protocol". How
is that supposed to work without a long lived connection?

> Actual push notifications hadn't been invented yet, though, so we created
> our own push infrastructure by sending encoded SMS messages that the app
> would silently intercept and interpret instead.

OK, that's pretty clear again.

> Over time, we switched to push notifications when they were created by
> Google and Apple [...]

But don't push notifications basically work over a long lived connection? Of
course it's better to have just one long-lived connection to Apple instead of
one for every communication App, but in the end if you want real time
signalling in a mobile environment you won't get around a long lived
connection, don't you? At least that is my understanding, but I'm always happy
to learn something new.

~~~
josecastillo
My read was that the SIP protocol was just less well suited to a mobile
environment. Not merely that long-lived connections are bad, but that it would
be inappropriate to use a long-lived connection that requires keepalive
packets or loses user data every time the user goes underground (SMS queues up
for delivery when the connection is re-established, and APNS will at least
deliver the most recent push). Technically even the SMS solution requires a
persistent connection, it's just the device's persistent connection to the
cell network, which is presumably better tailored for the mobile use case.

~~~
rixrax
SIP is unsuited for _any_ environment. It is a disgrace of a protocol and a
hot mess at that. At it's foundation it was designed to be 100% NAT
incompatible and since it's inception bandage has been added to address this
and it's other shortcomings. Faster we replace it with some/any alternative
the better. From protocol design standpoint, SIP is so bad that it makes H.323
feel like a sane VoIP protocol (which it isn't). </rant>

------
izacus
I really don't get the direction of the Signal project. iMessage got a huge
following because it allows you to trabnsparently send both SMS and encrypted
messages (significantly lowering barrier to entry) and brings that
functionality even to the desktop. Hence using it means that average user
doesn't have to explicitly think about which channel to use and with spread of
use more and more communications are secure.

On the other hand, Signal SMS support is broken (datastore and MMS issues),
they don't want to bring SMS support to their "desktop" app (which STILL needs
you to install Chrome to work) and they still don't support the use of
multiple devices. Instead they're wasting resources implementing video chat
which noone really asked for and won't help the adoption nearly as much as
having a secure drop-in replacement for SMS client. Even worse, enabling SMS
support will prevent any other SMS apps that let you have conversations via
the computer from working.

It seems like they're actively trying to shoot their own foot.

The best Signal can do is to make a proper desktop application (even Electron
would do now, even though Telegram's approach is significantly better UX wise)
and make SMS seamlessly integrated into it both on the phone and on the
desktop. Video chatting is nice, but it's not where the most important
requirement for cross-platform private communication is.

~~~
hocuspocus
SMS and MMS are almost completely irrelevant outside of North America.

~~~
izacus
That's not even remotely true. It's the only common denominator on the mobile
network that ensures delivery to everyone and it's still widely used
everywhere.

~~~
hocuspocus
I'm not saying it's not used, but it's mostly used one way (I receive SMS's
but never send any) and irrelevant for modern instant messaging.

The common denominator where I live is Whatsapp. If you send an SMS to
someone, they will very likely _not_ reply. In other countries it can be
WeChat, LINE, Kakaotalk, ... and Signal is competing in this space.

------
subliminalpanda
Tried it today with a relative, the audio quality is significantly better,
almost no stuttering.

Video was very smooth as well.

~~~
StavrosK
Yeah, they use Opus and VP8, AFAIK, which are both fantastic codecs. The
quality is great, although there's no echo cancelation yet, so you want to be
using it with headphones.

~~~
ikawe
Would you mind filing an issue about the echo on the corresponding tracker
with your device details?

iOS: [https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-
iOS/issues/new](https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/issues/new)

Android: [https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-
Android/issues/new](https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-
Android/issues/new)

~~~
StavrosK
Sure thing, although I think the issue was gone with the latest release (but I
used headphones so it might not have been). I'll retest and file.

------
flyx86
So I still cannot send a voice message in the chat (like Android users can),
but I am now able to do video calls. Shouldn't a feature be fully completed
before moving on to the next one?

And it still frequently happens that I get the same text message from Android
users six times. Where are the priorities of this project?

~~~
jsiepkes
I guess thats a matter of perspective. Voice messages seem important for you
but I dont care much for them. Dont assume your priotities are also the
priotities for the rest of the world.

As for the bug; If projects shouldnt add features before all bugs are fixed I
dont think we would see much releases...BTW ive never encountered that bug.

------
bubblethink
Does this change mean that the server is open source too ? I remember that
server for voice (redphone) wasn't open earlier.

~~~
Vinnl
Well, there's this: [https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-
Server](https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Server)

~~~
ywecur
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that only the text server?

~~~
Vinnl
That could very well be true; I hoped to have phrased my comment in a way that
would bring across my uncertainty :)

------
lmedinas
Is there plans to bring Video calls to Desktop also ?

I will be interested in doing Video calls in a bigger screen, like iPad for
example, is there any plans to expand this ? or is there any technical
limitation like the phone number ?

------
newman314
Has anyone tried Signal with CallKit enabled and iCloud disabled as well as
seeing if it leaks metadata in this form?

This config works for me with other VoIP apps. I tried earlier but was not
able to get a call through...

------
jrv
Great. Signal doesn't do _group_ calls though, right? Is there any app that
does end-to-end-encrypted _group_ calls?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
I would pay for this feature.

~~~
newscracker
Seriously, I would pay for being able to retain messages and conversations
when changing to a new device (just through a simple restore of the device
backup from the old one to the new one). That's the biggest selling point I
can use with other non-tech people to get them to move to apps like Signal.
Right now that's a huge drawback.

~~~
edent
You can. On the Android app - Menu - Import / export. Allows to you to create
a (non-encrypted) backup of your messages. I've used that when moving between
phones.

------
exodos
Signal is a pretty polished app, more than expected. However I'm annoyed that
they're adding large features without fixing small things.

Sometimes I'll MMS from other people inside other chat windows where they
don't belong.

It's also really annoying that I have to attach a an item BEFORE I enter the
message. Gets old after while.

Apps crashes quite frequently.

Using T-Mobile Wifi Calling feature makes MMS inconsistent, though at least it
allows me to use.

Signal should add support for Windows 10 Mobile as an app for all platforms,
and SMS/MMS should carry over, not just Signal-to-Signal.

I know there's a few other bugs, but I can't think of them at this moment.

BTW, I use the LG G4 unrooted, custom recovery, and unlocked bootloader

~~~
aibara
You can add attachments after starting to type a message by hitting the three
dots at the top right.

------
ripdog
Eh, doesn't work for me. I turned the beta on for two android phones, then
called one from the other. No video options, audio quality unchanged.

~~~
ikawe
Strange. Could you follow up with support@whispersystems.org?

