
California man spent $1M playing Game of War - anc84
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/12/california-man-spent-1-million-playing-game-of-war/
======
kefka
One problems I've found with these style of apps are the elderly community.

My wife works at "In-Home healthcare" for the elderly community, specializing
in hospice care. Because of this, she sees a lot of family members who get
their parents tablets. It can be an iPad, or Android tablet. And it's used to
facilitate cheap/free communication. (Don't worry, anything with app stores +
in app payments are at fault, not $your_ecosystem.)

The dark side, is when they start venturing around looking for "games". Now,
think of what a game was 20 and 30 years ago. We're talking arcade, Nintendo,
Atari.. That sort of thing. The psychological skinner-box wasn't really
created as of yet (it was, but only in arcades, and even the bad ones people
stayed away from).

And then you have the "Freemium Apps". AKA money-bilking skinner boxes. Now,
what makes these insidious, is the fact they ask for your credit card once,
and keep it on file. Now, buying "virtual trash" is as easy as click click
done. And conveniently drains your card.

And it's done so well that you think you're doing with fake play money - when
it's really your real account.

My wife's already had a few clients got bit by this. It was a few thousand
dollars, but enough to cause serious problems with someone who is on a fixed
budget. Fortunately, the bank reversed much of it as fraudulent billing. Some
of it was outside of dispute period, and was lost.

~~~
robocaptain
I have an elderly family member with this exact problem. Even with constant
reminding, it is an uphill battle. I suspect it is a combination of addiction
but also "dark patterns" that essentially trick folks into spending money.

One thing that helped is switching the family member to a True Link card:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Link)

While not perfect, it does root out the obvious scammers and does make it much
easier to push back and cancel those reccuring subscriptions that "some how"
keep getting activated.

I have no affiliation with True Link, but posting it in hopes it can help
someone with a similar problem.

Edit: Just now realized True Link has a YC affiliation, so maybe this is more
on topic than I thought.

~~~
koolba
Why not just remove the payment card from their account? You don't need to
have a card on file to install free apps and if you have no intention of
buying anything, there's no reason to have one on file at all.

~~~
ido
I believe this is the situation on android but that on ios you need a card
either way to download from the app store?

Or at least this used to be the situation.

~~~
koolba
> I believe this is the situation on android but that on ios you need a card
> either way to download from the app store?

> Or at least this used to be the situation.

Nope and I've never had one attached so it's definitely not a new thing
either.

They do have a bit of a dark pattern to trick you into adding one when you
first set up an Apple ID. IIRC, when you pick your credit card type (AmEx,
VISA, etc) you can pick "No Credit Card" to skip it.

~~~
kefka
Yeah. I work in tech, and this has tripped me up many a time.

Apple is extremely negligent about demanding a credit card, when I only want
"free applications". Worse yet, with their app-storification of OSX, it's
absolutely horrendous. And of course, only "richies" use OSX and Apple (enter
here various websites that charge more for Mac users based upon browser ident
strings).

------
koolba
# Free startup idea: HN style site that combines karma based gamification with
in-app purchases!

Imagine if you could "buy" your way to the top post, thus ensuring you get
more eyeballs, and hopefully more upvotes!

Worried about downvotes against your pointless comment? Buy a "Downvote Shield
(TM)" ( _Note: the shield only lasts for 45 minutes so you 'll have to buy
another one if the post stays popular!_).

What about going on offense you say? Well downvotes are a limited resource
(one free per day, max reserve of 3, takes 24-hours to recharge your downvote)
but no worries, but you can buy a 10-pack of fresh downvotes for only 20 karma
crystals[1]!

[1]: _Karma crystals are the in game currency. You can buy them in blocks of
prime numbers for whole numbers of actual currency._

~~~
hguant
> [1]: Karma crystals are the in game currency. You can buy them in blocks of
> prime numbers for whole numbers of actual currency.

This made me actively cringe.

------
bottled_poe
This is not a game for kids, it is for gambling addicts. And now those addicts
no longer need to physically go to the casino to feed that addiction.

These companies are predators.

~~~
phatfish
Slightly off topic, but it was only recently that I found out that the video
game roulette and black-jack etc. machines (known as fixed odds betting
terminals) are the reason there are so many bloody betting shops in the UK.

The government restricted these machines to only 4 per shop. Apparently they
print enough money that a betting shop will have 2 or 3 branches within
walking distance to get around the limit.

This is along with all the other chains doing exactly the same thing. It's
madness.

------
partycoder
Most of the core revenue making mechanics are imported from Japanese games,
that had a game boom earlier than the west due to abundance of feature phones
that were very close to modern smartphones... as well as people bored in
trains.

One of the core elements is the concept of "gacha" or probabilistic purchase,
where instead of selling an item for a price, they sell a low probability of
getting what you actually want for a lower price... but in the end people try
over and over again and easily lose track of their purchases and end up
spending more.

Some forms of gacha are no longer legal (e.g: kompu gacha), due to their
exceptional ability to make people spend... last time I checked the thing was
"box gacha".

Another way of making revenue is through "events", which are competitions, but
their outcome is heavily influenced by how much you spend. They're basically
auctions.

The thing is... in the end people don't really win. To win an event in a top
grossing game you might need probably a thousand dollars. It's not worth it.

~~~
ionwake
This is interesting, do you have any sources or links so I can find out more?

~~~
Lazare
Not sure how much detail you want. As a quick summary:

* "Gacha" is basically a mystery prize. Pay 1 token, get 1 random thing from a pool of options. Generally no published odds.

* "Kompu Gacha" is a system where you have to collect a set of specific prizes from the pool, which you can then turn in to obtain a very desirable item. Again, odds not published. And as you might expect, 1-2 of the items will be extremely rare, meaning that most people end up with an almost complete set, and a strong compulsion to open just one more prize to see if it'll complete it, but with no guarantee you'll ever complete it.

* "Box gacha" has a fixed, depleting pool of prizes with a known distribution; they come out in a nominally random order, but you can buy every prize in the pool and guarantee that you'll get the reward.

Once you start to look around, you'll see the mechanic and variations on it
everywhere. McDonald's runs a popular Monopoly game that's a pretty classic
kompu gacha. Tons of modern computer/console games have some form of loot
crate which works like that. One I've been seeing a lot is multiple currency
tiers, where an easy/free currency can purchase draws from a low value prize
pool, and a harder/cash currency can purchase draws from a high value prize
pool. Another trick is to have an armour set that works really well together,
where most pieces can be obtained (with effort) for free, but one piece can
basically only be obtained as a rare prize that costs cash per draw. You grind
out getting most of the armour, then realise it's mostly useless without the
helm of power (or whatever), and so you buy just one prize draw to see if you
get lucky and complete the set so all your work wasn't for nothing. And then
one more draw. Good way of drawing in "gamers" who might resist a cruder form.

Even Overwatch has it: During their periodic holidays, there's a new loot
crate which you can earn via playing games (very slowly) or purchase for cash.
The new loot crates have a chance of containing new cosmetic items (costumes,
emotes) that are only available during the holiday. And that's the only way to
get the items, and the holiday only comes up once a year. So if you really,
really want the new Mercy costume, you'll end up buying packs of crates and
opening them in the hope that this batch will have the costume. Or this one.
Or the next one. Anecdotally, most people end up paying way more for the items
they want than they would have if they were just listed in a store for
dollars. (There's zero play to win in Overwatch; it's just cosmetic. But it's
still a bit sleezy.)

As for links, maybe:

[http://www.serkantoto.com/2012/11/01/kompu-gacha-package-
box...](http://www.serkantoto.com/2012/11/01/kompu-gacha-package-box-gacha/)

[http://www.serkantoto.com/2016/03/14/gacha-monetization-
japa...](http://www.serkantoto.com/2016/03/14/gacha-monetization-japan/)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon)

~~~
CM30
Would trading card games work under a similar type of logic? Because games
like Magic the Gathering, Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh tend to work on a system where
the player buys a random pack of cards, with the better ones being extremely
rare/hard to find and the weaker ones being more common.

And they often come with people spending hundreds of dollars on rare cards or
buying whole boxes on the assumption there's at least one ultra rare one per
box.

~~~
Lazare
There's certainly a lot of overlap with the general gacha concept, but I think
at least in the case of Magic the very robust secondary market leads to very
different dynamics than kompu gacha systems.

For me, at least, back when I played Magic, I never ever opened a pack in the
hope of getting a card; what I _would_ do is open a pack in the hopes of
getting stuff to trade _for_ the card.

In addition, the distribution of value from a pack of Magic cards was pretty
even. If you opened 3-4 packs, you would be very unlikely to get the rare card
you wanted, but you'd be quite likely to get cards you could trade. There's
also published data on rarity and distributions.

Ultimately, I think the kompu gacha systems work by exploiting the sunk cost
fallacy. You've already spent $X on prizes, but it's worthless because you
don't have the one ultra-rare one you need. But if you spend another $Y, you
have a chance of making the earlier investment valuable.

With Magic, typically, after you spend $X on cards you have less than $X worth
of cards, but not a _lot_ less. If you don't get the one ultra-rare one, you
still have, worst case, a bunch of junk rares and some decent uncommons you
could trade or, worst case, sell to a dealer. And, crucially, the previous
investment doesn't become more valuable if you finally do get the ultra-rare.

...that being said, a huge, huge part of the money the companies behind them
earn is because of the random nature of the packs. So...I guess I'd grade it
as mildly exploitive, perhaps, but only mildly. :)

------
emdowling
I'm a huge proponent of platform owners getting out of the way when it comes
to restrictions (at odds with my use of iOS, but it's a balance of
priorities).

When will regulations catch up with this sort of thing? Do Apple/Google have a
moral responsibility here? Apple expressly forbids gambling apps, but this is
essentially a slot machine with a different mechanic. Apple (not as familiar
with Google) have done a great job on iOS giving parents the options to
restrict their children making unauthorised purchases, but the settings aren't
hugely discoverable.

In this day and age, do we need to consider a digital restraining order that
allows a spouse or close family member to block or limit digital addicts? Do
Apple or Google have a duty of care here or does it rest with law makers? The
concerning part is that these purchases are invisible. If I buy a $1 million
boat, others will see that and can intervene. But digital purchases can rack
up silently and cause massive damage without anyone realising.

I'm really not sure where I stand on the issue. One side of me says that "it's
his money, he can do what he wants" whereas the other side says that society
should protect it's weakest, and this man clearly has a gambling problem.

~~~
PaulRobinson
Actually, gambling apps are allowed in stores for territories where gambling
is legal.

In the UK every bookmaker will have an app, and there are plenty of real-money
casino and bingo apps available.

Of course, the difference here, is that the UK's gambling companies operate in
a highly regulated environment. You can put in place deposit limits instantly
that then take a week or more to lift, you can self-exclude (ban yourself from
the bookmaker), and these are the measures the firms have put in themselves,
the regulator is there to basically make sure they're following consistent
rules and treating players fairly.

Money laundering regulations, appropriate licensing, etc. also all add up. The
general view is that people should be free to gamble, but also have a
regulatory framework to remove criminal elements and ensure players are
treated fairly. It helps that the government gets to tax proceeds as well - an
issue causing real headaches as they've become as addicted to the in-store
FOBTs income as much as bookmaker shareholders have.

I've thought for a while that there was going to come a time when spending
caps were likely going to be needed for in-game assets. But then, where do you
draw the line? You could easily argue that webcam sites are potentially as
addictive, exploitative and potentially have the same game behaviour that is
so dangerous here.

~~~
emdowling
TIL about the gambling restriction being region-specific.

I guess my question boils down to this: betting on horses and playing a casino
slot machine are recognised as gambling and regulated as such. How, when and
should apps like Game of War be considered in the same category?

~~~
dagw
I guess a (somewhat perverse) argument could be made that the defining
characteristic of gambling is that you might (just maybe) get back more money
than you put in. In Game of War you are absolutely 100% guaranteed to get back
exactly 0% of your money every single time, and thus there is no gambling
involved.

~~~
BoorishBears
And to me it's a slippery slope because what separates stuff like Game of War
and Farmville from your average AAA game with purchases for packs of things
like skins.

Usually people don't group those because you're paying money for the former up
front, but the mechanics are the same.

~~~
chowells
There's no slippery slope. The difference is easy to distinguish.

Is real money a substitute for skill at whatever decisions the game asks you
to make? If so, you're being scammed.

Content expansions in AAA games are obviously not substitutes for skill.

Nor are cosmetic customization options like skins or accessories.

Cards in virtual card games like Hearthstone get a bit more interesting to
analyze. There are better and worse decks, and it takes the right cards to
build better decks. Spending money is a much faster way to get the right cards
than doing daily quests. But there are two factors that keep Hearthstone out
of scam territory. First, someone can get any card they want without spending
money, and if they're really good in drafts, they can even do it relatively
quickly. So, the more skill you have, the less spending money helps you.
Second, there's a maximum that spending money can help you. Once you have the
decks you want, whether you win or not comes down to skill (and some luck) in
the exact same way as everyone else. You get no advantages over someone who
built the deck they want without spending money.

So yeah, there's a simple framework to apply to make these decisions. Where's
the slippery slope?

~~~
BoorishBears
I wasn't referring to Content expansions, I was referring to games like Halo
or Fifa where you can buy (or earn) a "pack" of "cards" that unlock (non-
cosmetic) items that are in the base game that you use in actual gameplay.

In these mobile IAP-fests you can unlock anything with "enough play" and beat
most challenges with "enough skill" but the idea is "enough play" is supposed
to be so much that if you committed to it, you'd have better luck working a
job to just pay for the items you unlock. And there's no difference between
items earned and bought, just a difference in expected quantity one has access
to. So those games pass both tests you mention.

You end up needing to add more and more constraints to have a framework that
works on multiple genres and eventually you'll find you're making exclusions
that aren't really fair.

------
irishbro
China is set to introduce a law that will force these sort of games to reveal
their drop rates. It will be interesting to see if it will have any effect but
my gut is telling their wont be any significant changes.

Thinking about it I wonder how they expect games to report this information
when it is most likely have 2 or 3 different data sets in the wild with
different drop rates. A company could mis-lead customers by displaying the
percentages for one data set with favourable odds when in reality they are in
a bucket with much worse odds.

Source : [http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-12-09-china-
force...](http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-12-09-china-forces-devs-
to-reveal-loot-box-drop-rates-in-game)

~~~
partycoder
This would be great.

Sometimes the game UX presents probabilities in a misleading way... such
showing the card being taken from a deck. However if it was probabilistically
accurate, the deck shown in the UX would have probably 10000 cards in it.

------
Ftuuky
My girlfriend works as data analyst for a mobile gaming company and she found
a user that spends between 4000 to 6000 USD every month on items. Who are
these people?

~~~
Paul_S
They are victims.

Ask your girlfriend where, if at all, she draws the moral line.

I'm not a saint but I wouldn't be able to justify that to myself.

~~~
IanDrake
Hmm, I would draw the line at adults spending their own money however they
legally pleased.

It's not moral to dictate how another's earnings should be spent. That's the
opposite of moral.

~~~
anc84
Exploiting psychological flaws in humans might be legal but is horrifyingly
immoral and unethical.

------
johanneskanybal
It's just downright crazy gambling is regulated yet ingame purchases with
infinitely well crafted adiction mechanisms data driven and personalized is
not.

------
nl
I've seen comments here on HN before from game developers who claimed that had
player who they characterized (unclear how correctly) as "Saudi Oil rich-kids"
who'd spend tens of thousands on in-game costumes to out-peacock their
friends.

This is a whole other level though.

~~~
gadders
"As I understand it, "whales" tend to be less "poor gullible fools maxing out
their credit cards" and more "extraordinarily wealthy people that enjoy
wasting amounts that seem ridiculous to us but are truly nothing but a drop in
the bucket to them." The term "oil prince" is trotted out sometimes, and
people like that really do exist: I don't remember his name, but there is a
very real "oil prince" who likes to go on twitch.tv and shower random (mostly
female) streamers with thousands of dollars."

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7164862](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7164862)

~~~
pyrale
It would be interesting to know to which extent it is true, because this
sounds exactly like the ideal line of defense for a casino-like industry.

~~~
gadders
Yeah. I know there are lots of problems in the UK with fixed odd betting
machines ([http://www.itv.com/news/2016-12-13/what-are-fixed-odds-
betti...](http://www.itv.com/news/2016-12-13/what-are-fixed-odds-betting-
terminals/))

------
wturner
When I worked at Expression College I use to talk and interact quite a bit
with Gabe the founder.Suffice to say if you heard the way he spoke in private
about "these people" (the game audience world) it would make you cringe even
more. This was before he "made it", but was still in the game industry.
Regardless, he's very smart in the most Machiavellian sense of the word. Some
of his online talks are actually really enlightening.

I'm grateful I'm not in that world. It reminds me of Donald Trump. Relentless
hypocrisy, no shame, and the entire thing coupled with the grand illusion of
success.

And stop calling these "games" they're not! They're real-money auctions to
have your name at the top of some silly todo list.

lol

------
bitwize
Well, I guess we now know who TheLegend27 is.

------
DanBC
I'd be interested to see some journalism around IAPs in apps aimed at
Children.

 _Talking Tom 's Gold Run_ is a fun little endless runner. It's well made. My
kid enjoys it. There's an IAP to turn off most ads, and because we play the
app a lot I bought that, and some other bits and bobs. But I was looking at
the IAPs and I have no idea how much I'd have to spend if I wanted to unlock
everything - all the courses, all the characters, everything. The most
expensive IAP is £79, and that wouldn't come close to unlocking everything.

I don't think you have to buy anything, I think you could just grind the game
to complete it with play not pay.

------
braymundo
To some degree, every game has addictive mechanics. This type of mobile game
clearly crosses an ethical line... but where's the line?

~~~
dagurp
I think they cross the line by not limiting how much people can spend in the
game.

~~~
braymundo
But is there a limit on how much people can spend on games that are not
considered as belonging to the same category as Game of War, such as
Hearthstone or Magic: The Gathering? Granted, the addictive mechanics are not
as overt, but potentially you could spend a lot there as well.

~~~
lgieron
In Magic at least it's not pay to win - the better you are, the less you need
to spend.

~~~
pyrale
afaik pro players either borrow their cards from stores, or are running stores
in order to have access to the cards.

Almost none of them would be able to play the game at their level while also
paying for their working tools. But, somehow, they are shown as examples to
players without these connections...

If I can give an advice to anyone willing to play somewhat competitive magic
without mortgaging their house, play block pauper magic.

~~~
technofiend
The difference is in GoW battles between armies destroy the armies. Nobody
would play M:TG if every time you lost a land it went into a shredder. Now
imagine your Power 7 are set on fire before you eyes when you lose instead.
GoW is designed to consume resources which can only be replaced by unrealistic
wait times (days, weeks) or purchased for cash.

At least for the ycombinator crowd, the lesson learned should be how to design
such a game assuming your morals allow it. I briefly considered writing a
parody that openly abused you for spending money in game. BROADCAST: "Hey
everyone, this idiot just spent $10 on some bits on a server in California!"
But yeah I would feel bad even making money from that game, and it seemed like
a lot of work for something that would probably net $35.

~~~
dagw
_Nobody would play M:TG if every time you lost a land it went into a
shredder._

I haven't played M:TG in over decade, but at least then it was standard 'ante
up' a card before each game that you would lose if you lost.

~~~
evanelias
Much more than a decade, I'd wager! Ante stopped being standard quite a long
time ago. Personally I stopped playing in 1997 and ante had already ceased to
be a common practice in my area several years before that, from what I
remember.

Just googled it and the last card to even have an ante-impacting ability was
printed in 1996. Seems it stuck around as an optional rule but wasn't common
in my experience, probably because tournaments always skipped it.

~~~
dagw
...you're right. Fuck, I'm getting old.

------
ikeboy
They spent $40 million in advertising, gotta earn it back somehow.

------
baybal2
>Machine Zone

Good day in Smolensk. Try playing in Russian unwinable casino

------
eauxuae
Following this news among others, I tried to start an Ask HN thread on
recommended readings regarding freemium mobile games' strategies, but it
didn't draw any attention so far. Here is the link if you would like to
contribute:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13157836](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13157836)

------
johnbrendt
[http://www.duq.edu/about/centers-and-institutes/center-
for-t...](http://www.duq.edu/about/centers-and-institutes/center-for-teaching-
excellence/teaching-and-learning/tips-for-student-online-success)

------
lambdadmitry
This is sad. Can't help but think about a speech in the recent Westworld
finale:

> Since I was a child, I've always loved a good story.

> I believed that stories helped us to ennoble ourselves,

> to fix what was broken in us and to help us become the

> people we dreamed of being. Lies that told a deeper truth.

> I always thought I could play some small part in that

> grand tradition.

It's funny how people from the same background, class and culture are capable
of both creating a beautiful, if slightly pessimistic, story and a ruthless
exploitation machine. In both cases they do it for money, both are profitable,
and yet the effect is very different.

------
majortennis
slightly NSFW

