
I must be crazy - chubs
http://splinter.com.au/i-must-be-crazy
======
cageface
_I’m going to make, market, and hustle my iPhone apps like my life depends on
it._

I've been doing exactly this for the last year and I'm _very_ close to
switching my focus back to web development. From what I can tell the easy
money in the app store is long gone and conditions do not favor the lone
developer now. I have two iPad apps that frequently appear in the "What's Hot"
list for music and if the revenue they generate is any indication most of us
would be better off working as fry cooks.

The web gives you so much more insight into your potential customer's behavior
that I think that alone might make it a better bet for a solo dev.

If you do decide to go solo I'd strongly recommend you hire a professional
designer. Aesthetic standards are very high now and from what I can see pretty
graphics matter a lot more to the typical iOS app buyer than features.

~~~
stevenwei
I've been doing this full-time for about 2 years now, with some products that
have taken off and others that have entirely flopped.

I agree that the "easy money" (e.g. air horns and flashlights) is entirely
gone, but there is still a ton of opportunity available if you're willing to
put in the work. The type of work necessary now is 1) different than it was 3
years ago and 2) different than what would be required of a web app. The App
Store has evolved quite a bit over time and the bar seems to be getting set
higher and higher.

In particular, user experience, design, and polish are supremely important on
the App Store. I think unfortunately a lot of indie developers (especially
engineering types, including myself at the start) tend to overlook this aspect
- either from lack of time, energy, or budget, and as a result they make a
poor first impression and never really build a following. On the App Store,
it's more difficult to ship a MVP and iterate because users expect quite a
lot. (You can still do it, but the 'M' might be in different areas than you
would expect.)

On the other hand, there are a ton of iOS devices on the market right now,
that number is continuing to grow, and that means there are many many users
willing to put down money for your software. Apple takes care of the details
of collecting payments and makes it _easy_ for users to buy your app.

That said, there are definite tradeoffs to selling via the App Store vs
selling on the web.

\- You're definitely cognizant of the fact that you're playing in someone
else's walled garden, and this can bite you if you're not careful. \- Like you
mentioned, the sales funnel is a black box, which means it's very difficult to
measure or optimize. \- Traditional advertising methods (e.g. AdWords)
typically don't work cause app prices are too low.

I've also done both and prefer the App Store by far - business aspects aside,
there's just something really fun about making iPad apps.

~~~
porsupah
"Traditional advertising methods (e.g. AdWords) typically don't work cause app
prices are too low."

Have you gauged the efficacy of advertising on directly applicable sites, such
as (for games) TouchArcade?

I can easily see the low unit pricing being a hindrance - I suppose therein
lies the temptation to bolt on IAPs, which opens an entirely different can of
worms.

~~~
stevenwei
Yes. Not on TouchArcade (since I don't sell games), but I have paid for
advertising on AppAdvice and CultOfMac. It seems to be roughly break even for
me, but since I can't correlate click-throughs with purchases I don't really
know for sure - and experimenting is not exactly cheap.

------
bhousel
_> I’m going to make, market, and hustle my iPhone apps like my life depends
on it_

Why can't I find a link or description to them anywhere in your post?

 _I’m the breadwinner with a wife and daughter to support, My wife is due to
have our second child in 8 weeks, We’re currently building a house, and the
builder’s bills will soon arrive_

I may be the only person to say it, but I don't think quitting your day job at
this time is a good idea.

~~~
chubs
You're totally right. And also, some have pointed out (quite correctly) that
amy and patrick recommend starting out on the side, so let me explain further:

* I have enough savings to last a few months if i sell my motorbike

* I'm reasonably well connected and, if all goes badly, getting an ios contract/job in a few months time won't be hard

* I already have a dozen apps on the app store, bringing in between $100-$150 daily

* Due to a recent house move, i'm unable to code on the train any more which used to be brilliant, so my part-time efforts have dwindled.

As for the apps, I really need to make a promo-page for them, the best i can
currently give you is here: <http://apps.splinter.com.au/>

~~~
nimblegorilla
$100 per day is $3K per month. While you can't support a lavish lifestyle I
think you're earning enough for the basics. Most of the naysayers are just
jealous that they don't have courage to make the leap. Good luck!

~~~
chc
Don't forget taxes. You're looking at closer to $2000 a month. That will cover
rent and utilities for most people, but you better be doing something else if
you enjoy eating food.

------
patio11
Free advice: should there ever be a gap between the present revenues of your
apps and your family's immediate financial needs, a week or six of freelancing
iOS development will plug it very quickly indeed. It isn't my market, but
I-heard-it-on-the-grapevine hourly rates are in the US$150~$200+ region.

~~~
cageface
Like every other software market, outsourcing firms are eating up the bottom
end of the iOS development market at rates far below that. But I imagine if
you can cultivate the right kind of local clients you can do well.

Since you mention it, if anybody needs some freelance help with an app I'm
available. As a self-outsourced American currently living in Vietnam I can
significantly undercut $150/hr. ;)

~~~
patio11
Can you explain exactly what about the service delivered is different with you
living in Vietnam versus you living in, I don't know, Central Japan? Or, for
that matter, living in whatever "One town too far to come into the office in
San Francisco" is?

I mean, sure, you have a cost of living which will let you attempt to compete
on price for the worst projects from the worst customers, but why not just
deliver desirable projects for great customers at the price which the market
has decided professional iOS development is worth?

~~~
cageface
I figure the awkward time zone difference for most U.S. clients has to count
for some kind of haircut.

But your point is well taken. If I do decide to shift my focus from my own
products to consulting I'm not going to do it at too high a discount.

~~~
patio11
Try not giving the discount on your next 3 quotes. See if it meaningfully
increases client resistance. It probably won't.

Can I tell you a story of something stupid I once did which nonetheless does
not constrain me to always acting stupidly in the future? A particular
prospect asked for a quote of my rate. I quoted my then-going rate and then,
because I could not stop my fingers, said "But since we're Internet buddies
I'll give you a discount." He said "OK, what's the final rate?" And I chopped
50% off. He accepted.

Note that in no point prior to that had he evinced any problems with paying
the actual rate and, indeed, the difference between X and 2X is meaningless to
him because a) he's a millionaire and b) neither X nor 2X comes out of his
pocket, it comes out of a budget of a corporate entity he happens to own a lot
of shares in, and both of us assumed (accurately) that the engagement was
going to make those shares worth substantially more than X, 2X, or 10X more.

I set fire to five figures with two emails, and _he probably doesn't even
remember that conversation_. Facepalm. But I don't have to facepalm next time,
and neither do you.

~~~
orangethirty
Good lesson. I'm always selling myself for cheap because somehow I feel bad
about charging for my code. I'll try it outside.

------
davidw
I seem to recall that patio11 built BCC up in his spare time before making the
leap. In other words, grab the next vine before you let go of the last one...

~~~
chubs
You're absolutely right. Maybe i should explain further: I do actually have
some moderately successful apps on the app store.

------
hopeless
Amy generally doesn't advise leaving your day job either (disclosure: I've
been through her 30x500 course).

Having said that, I'm in a similar situation (sole bread winner, 2 kids) and
I'll probably be handing in my notice this week too. It's partly because the
job was causing me debilitating levels of depression that I just couldn't work
in my spare time. I'm planning to work as a freelance rails developer (got my
first client on board already) and work on my 30x500 product.

I found Jonathan Fields' book 'Uncertainty' quite enlightening and motivating.

~~~
chubs
Thanks for posting! I love hearing from amy's grads. I'm really seriously
thinking of doing her course next time around. And i can totally relate to
your 'debilitating' job, whereas in my case it was causing stress which,
again, limits the amount you can (without being a superhuman stoic) achieve in
your spare time.

PS please blog about your experiences freelancing and applying amy's
principles, i'd love to read about it. Congrats on your first client!

------
ctek
I have to admit that more than anyone else, Amy and Patrick inspired me to
create my minimum viable product, <https://www.pageblox.com> which is
currently an html/css layout creator. It may end up turning into a CMS, or
evolve into a feature-rich web design tool. I launched several months ago and
am putting in time every day (except Sundays). It hasn't been easy, but once
you establish momentum, it's hard to stop. I, however have not quit my job (I
am very risk averse). The podcast Startups for the Rest of Us and the book
"Start Small, Stay Small" are probably the best resources for learning how to
build your own products...

My advice to someone looking to start something on the side: don't quit your
job, but find a low-stress job at a large corporation with normal 8 hour
workdays and a short commute.

~~~
Ecio78
_with normal 8 hour workdays and a short commute._

...or a long commute by train or other transportation that gives you the
opportunity to work on your project with a notebook :)

------
nodemaker
If you are crazy then I must be batshit insane!

I left my moderately paying (but extremely boring) job in Virginia and moved
back to India few months ago and I am making apps full time. Unlike you I
was'nt making anything when I started.

Life in a big city in the US and India are so different that initially I was
in a "wtf did I just do" phase but I kept going. Recently I started selling my
hacker news app (<http://www.hackerno.de> ) for $$$ and things are looking
better now. Even my parents have stopped asking me to get a job!

The thing that sucked most about this whole experience is undoubtedly Xcode.
Your life depends on it and it will crash all the effin time!

~~~
cageface
AppCode is the cure for your Xcode frustrations.

------
Schwolop
Good on ya mate! I'm a fellow Aussie who's just done the same thing - six days
to go until I can build my robots full time.

~~~
tocomment
Whoah Robots? Tell us more please.

~~~
Schwolop
Yeah, robots! I'm a mechatronic engineer with a Ph.D. in robotics from Sydney
Uni. I'm entirely sick of the academic rat race, so I've quit to start Triple
Point Robotics (www.triplepointrobotics.com) with another colleague from my
work, and an old high school friend.

Ultimately, we want to be the Apple of consumer robotics, and to have our
robots in your homes and offices. That's a big ask, so we're starting out by
using robotic technologies to solve various problems. Our first product line
will be a combination of augmented reality, computer vision, and SLAM* - we're
calling it Augmented Reality over IP. It lets a remote operator draw things in
your local environment, and we think this is useful for training, helping the
less tech-savvy, tele-medicine, and a bunch of other stuff.

One of the coolest parts of our five year plan is that this first product is
essentially one component of the head of our ultimate mobile robot. So we get
a nice product and some revenue early on, but also solve a bunch of the
problems that we'd have to solve later anyway.

If you want to know more, ask here, on Quora (there's a TPR topic), or by
email to tom@jugglethis.net. I've got HN's noprocrast turned on, so I don't
get around to responding here much more than once a day.

[*] Simultaneous Localisation And Mapping; an algorithm that is traditionally
used to let a robot build a map of its environment at the same time as using
the features of this map to work out where it is. We're using it to work out
where a camera took a picture from, so that we can stabilise augmented reality
overlays projected on the real world.

------
bignoggins
Best of luck. I quit my job a year and a half ago to work on my app business
full time. I'm now making 6 times my salary from app profits. In my situation,
my app profits were already surpassing my income by the time I quit. I'm not
sure what your situation is, but I would recommend getting the boat a bit
closer to the dock before jumping.

------
ja27
Welcome to the club. If you haven't already, come check out MomsWithApps.com
and the associated forums and Facebook group. It's not just moms but a lot of
indie mobile app developers. Most members are in the educational market but
many have apps in other areas. There are increasing efforts to cross-promote
apps.

------
lscott3
Good luck on this man. You will find that it is far riskier staying at your
day job. The reason I say that is because you will always have one foot in. A
safety net. You will not have the same motivation to make things happen.

Having no safety net makes you well aware of all the opportunities that arise.
Having that fail safe makes it so you have a built in excuse, "there is no
rush to get this done I am already paying the bills from the day job.".

Just a reminder surround yourself with people who will uplift you and that are
liked minded, not the ones that say "isn't that pretty risky" or "are you sure
you want to do that? You have a baby on the way".

------
makmanalp
I've quit my job recently too! If any other quitters want to organize, share
experiences and get motivated together, I'd love to set up a mailing list and
such. We can even do a weekly demo day amongst ourselves.

What say you?

Contact me at the email in my profile!

------
vignesh_vs_in
I am six months away from doing the same crazy thing.

But I have been preparing for this for the past 2 yrs. I aready have few ios,
android apps out. And i am in the process of finding co-founders.

Thanks to HN for helping me think it is possible to make a living, I have seen
so many examples in the past two years here of positives and negatives of self
employment.

Oh and i also have saved enough money to last a year without a paying job.

------
njx
I think you are making a very bad mistake. Just listening to a podcast... come
on.. don't do this to your family. The podcast is selling their services and
building audience for future products they will offer.

Think twice

Don't quit now, generate ideas while at job, start research and then plan
accordingly.

There are so many incubators that could later help with your idea/prototype.

Just my 3c Nilesh

I built infocaptor while consulting

~~~
njx
Why downvoting?? I am speaking from experience, name it and I have done that.

~~~
edwinnathaniel
Here's the thing: the OP did not mention that he has some apps that generate
$100-$150/day already making the blog post looks like he's a risk taker.
(hint: it's how you drive pageviews, no offense OP, but let's be honest until
you fix the blog :)).

So you're right based on the blog alone, but not necessary 100% right had the
OP exposed his side income.

------
chubs
OP here: All advice is welcome and will be listened to, that's what makes this
place great :)

~~~
jere
Do you already have a side project that is generating revenue?

I'm sure he'll chime in, but Patrick was making more from BCC than he was from
his job by the time he quit.
[http://diycomputerscience.com/blog/post/2011/07/01/create-a-...](http://diycomputerscience.com/blog/post/2011/07/01/create-
a-microisv-and-be-your-own-boss---interview-with-patrick-mckenzie)

In all seriousness, good luck!

~~~
chubs
Yes, i'm earning $100-150 daily from existing apps. So it's not a _complete_
leap of faith.

I admire those who can persevere at their dayjob whilst building up a side
business, i really wish i could do that without going insane. Patrick must be
made of sterner stuff than I ;)

~~~
jere
Well, congrats. It sounds like you are already bringing in a very tight, but
livable income. I hope you're taking a hard look at your expenses and your
wife is on board.

------
dools
Not sure which city you're in but if you're starting out in business then the
one thing I can tell you that I wish someone had told me 7 years ago is:
networking is not for losers.

Networking is the most valuable thing you can do in business.

Some great networking hubs are @inspire9 in Melbourne (tweet at them they're
really responsive), the York Butter Factory also in Melbourne and
Fishburners.org in Sydney (they have co-working spaces in Ultimo and urr,
Darlinghurst I think?).

I know there's a good place in Brisbane, too but I can't remember the name. If
you tweet @pc0 he'll tell you :) He visited recently (and is one of the
foundational members of the Fishburners community).

------
alinajaf
You're describing my situation almost exactly (i.e. making the leap to
consulting with nothing lined up). I'm a few months ahead of you, and have had
some serious ups and downs so far. More free advice for others considering the
same:

* I don't have savings, so I took a loan amounting to about 3 months of expenses. Having cash in the bank makes me feel a lot better about doing this with a baby on the way. It also means I'm not forced to do low-paid work to make rent. Best case: You pay it all off + early payment fee when you sign your first big deal. Worst case: You get to the end of the runway and have to go back to perm work to pay it off. [1]

* It's been said many times but bears repeating: Charge more. Every lead I followed up got a daily rate roughly $200 USD more than the last. I can barely stomach quoting my current rate to clients, but I'm not going to argue with those willing to pay it. [2]

* Read about negotiation. _Secrets of Power Negotiating_ for defence, _Getting to Yes_ for doing the actual negotiating. Biggest bit of advice I can give personally is to shut up more often. Never talk the other person into paying you less money when they're perfectly happy paying you more!

* Same again for networking: _Never Eat Alone_ is the standard text. If like me you have the social skills of a cave troll, _How to Win Friends and Influence People_ is a good read.

* Remember to spend time on your thing. If you're not sure what your thing is, spend time figuring out what your thing should be (still at that stage myself). With networking, chasing client work, planning meetings and then doing client work, it can be difficult to keep this up. Alternatively, once you know what your thing is, Charge More and spend a few weeks at a time (this is my plan and something I've seen others execute successfully).

* Have actual, zero-business-value downtime. Pick up a hobby or two if you need to. I chose amateur robotics and catching up on classic SF. It will help you stay sane when things get rough (based on my experience and that of every consultant/freelancer I've spoken to, things will get rough).

Good hunting!

[1] I'm not a financial advisor, yadda yadda.

[2] Another good thing about charging more: clients see you as a _consultant_
rather than _additional technical resource_. I've found that at higher rates,
people tend to value your opinion a great deal more than otherwise, leading to
a nice virtuous cycle.

------
clarky07
Congrats man. I did exactly this a year ago and it was the best decision I've
ever made. If you're interested I wrote up my story a few weeks ago here -
[http://www.entrelife.com/2012/05/how-i-went-
from-0-to-50k-on...](http://www.entrelife.com/2012/05/how-i-went-
from-0-to-50k-on-app-stores.html)

Good Luck!

------
jmitcheson
Where in Australia are you? There are some good meetups for startup guys. Join
one of them; it will make it easier for you socially I think. I'm going along
to Silicon Beach Melbourne tomorrow night.

~~~
chubs
Sydney. I go to cocoaheads, and am thinking about hitting up silicon beach
sydney (i used to go, years ago) and maybe RORO and SydJS. Can you recommend
anything else i should check out?

~~~
megablast
Mobile Mondays can be good as well. That is Australia wide too, even in
Adelaide!

------
devgutt
Congratulations!!! Big steep indeed. Give a favor to yourself and don´t work
at home, work somewhere else like coworking or shared spaces. Work at home is
a focus-killer IMHO.

~~~
nanijoe
Not true for everyone..I find working anywhere BUT home to be very
distracting. Up until 8 months ago, I had worked exclusively from home (aside
from the odd client appointment) for 10 years

~~~
devgutt
Yes, this is a personal opinion. I have 2 kids, so I feel bad when I have to
put them aside to do some less important thing like "work".

------
shad0wfax
Good luck! I think you can add the intangible element of "being happy doing
what you want" to the list of reasons.

I think you will love it every day.

------
rheide
I was about to write "You must be an idiot". Then I read your reasons for
quitting and understood completely. My compliments, sir.

------
smoyer
Best of luck! I love the start-up life even though I've seen success and
failure ... at least it isn't boring.

~~~
chubs
Thanks a lot! I think you're right, it makes you feel more _alive_ in some
fundamental way. I think it's important that i try this once before my time's
up.

------
scottmkroberts
Good luck and all the best, I am currently on my first workday since going at
it alone and its feeling good.

------
tocomment
What does patio11 do now? Consulting?

~~~
patio11
Cross-cultural wedding planning. You'd be surprised how few flowers don't mean
"I'm sorry your mother died" to _somebody_!

Sorry, just kidding. The center of gravity of my business is a moving target.
As of present, it is consulting, largely on marketing topics for software
companies. Not where I want to be for forever but, well, wedding to pay for.

Appointment Reminder is coming along decently well -- the enterprise pipeline
is starting to bear fruit, finally, and the self-serve is quietly growing
every month. BCC remains my fun little laboratory where lab accidents can't
kill anybody. I will probably have some sort of productized version of
consulting services available sometime after the wedding -- maybe August, who
knows.

~~~
po
_Cross-cultural wedding planning. You'd be surprised how few flowers don't
mean "I'm sorry your mother died" to somebody!_

Can't go wrong with daisies right?

~~~
ahoyhere
"Pushing up daisies" ring a bell?

------
knes
Good luck my friend. Just made the switch 3 months ago and couldn't be any
happier. :)

------
eragnew
That's awesome man! I think I'm about to follow in your footsteps :)

------
hef19898
Couragious, borderline crazy and suicidal, but couragious. :-)

I wish you success!

------
jpzeni
Good luck bro! Never look back.

------
markyc
good luck man, be sure to keep us updated, you can make it!

subscribed to blog: check

------
sparknlaunch
Wow. Good luck. Given your commitments you've made a brave decision to resign.

What is your plan for the next week, month, quarter? What are your targets?
How many months can you survive without income?

Could you not have remained employed by building the foundations of your new
business?

Will you be sharing your journey?

