
Ask HN: I lost my job - uvw
About a week ago I was laid off. In 15+ years I am working as developer, I was never considered for a layoff. I am soul searching for a week now, and finally I got over my anger, disappointment and anxiety and ready to move on.<p>I believe it was nothing to do with my performance of skills as a developer. I believe I was expected to perform as a leader on top of solving problems, writing applications and my lack of leadership skills made me not worth my paycheck. In retrospect, higher ups did mention in passing about an year ago about how I need to speak up in meetings etc.<p>I think I don&#x27;t know how to be a leader at a workplace.<p>So I come here being humbled. If you are a leader&#x2F;team leader&#x2F;c-suite people&#x2F;managers please enlighten me. Or point me towards videos, books, ted talks, internet articles. I want to learn and be a better person and also don&#x27;t want to repeat the mistakes in a new job.
======
golover721
Unfortunately a lot of the comments are mixing together leadership with
management. These are not the same thing. Some of the best technical leaders I
have had the pleasure to work with were not managers.

As a developer gets older and has more experience they are definitely expected
to show leadership skills. While this can look different for everybody,
usually it looks like some combination of:

1\. Ability to mentor others 2\. Ability to be the "expert" on the team. A go
to developer for design and architecture advice 3\. Ability to be the liaison
with other development teams, product management, or sometimes upper
management

Unfortunately it is rare that you can be an experienced develop er and not be
expected to show leadership in these areas, along with your development work.

~~~
eyegor
So where do you draw the line between team leader and manager? Team size?
Amount of liaison with non-technical folks? Can you be a manager and a
technical lead?

~~~
caseysoftware
Manager is a title. Leader is a set of behaviors.

Most managers are not leaders. At minimum, they approve expense reports and
check the boxes. Better ones know how to operate in an organization and detect
& solve operational problems.

Leaders take a position and make their case and defend it effectively. They
grow and support the people around them. And they try to improve themselves
along the way by learning from the people above, below, and parallel to them.
They have the trust of people around them because they earned it and reflect
it.

You can be none of the above, one of the above, or - and this is special -
both of the above.

And of course, none of that is static. People can improve and grow at any
time.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
technical lead on a project is also determined sometimes by other factors -
for example:

developer longest on project by a significant factor is likely to be the
leader by default.

developer likely to be on project longer than more experienced developers may
be deferred to as leader (at least I often do if I am consulting for a short
period and a less experienced guy from the company is on the project for the
next year I defer to how he wants to do things)

Often leadership is just going to the most experienced because of course they
know how to make their case and defend it.

~~~
Zenbit_UX
> technical lead on a project is also determined sometimes by other factors -
> for example:

You're arguing 2 very different concepts with the GP, he made the case (quite
elegantly) that a leader is a set of behaviors and you're ignoring all of that
and stating "nope, it's a job title".

I'd recommend you re-read their comment.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
I was going to respond at length to this but I realized I must be in some bad
mood because it started to become rude.

As regards rereading comments I suggest you reread mine with the consideration
that the phrases "leader by default" or "deferred to as leader" would indicate
someone who is not leader by title, yet has also not necessarily demonstrated
a lot of leadership qualities to get the position (as indicated by the rest of
the comment).

They are leaders not by title or nature, but leaders by necessity and
pragmatism.

~~~
Zenbit_UX
Yes, you're right, there's a possible third category of leader by necessity
but it could be argued that this is a subtype of leader by title which is why
I didn't understand your comment on first read.

Maybe leader by "position" or "circumstance" is a better term as it covers the
situations like "most experienced in a team" even if that experience is only a
few months more than the person they're helping and even if they don't have
the title to match.

I still agree with the parent commenter that distinguished between _true_
leaders and those who've been placed or defaulted into the role.

------
nzealand
They sound like terrible managers.

If they are unable to evaluate your actual work, the only way they can
evaluate you is based on your verbal contributions during a meeting.

As they are clearly unable to coach you, they are probably relying on you to
coach the younger workers.

Just realize that each manager is looking for a different set of things. Some
managers would be perfectly happy with you quietly writing applications well.

Nobody knows how to be a manager, and while some with encouragement can learn,
some people either don't have the inclination or correct temperament.

I personally would never push someone into management or push the person out
if that person was happiest as a individual contributor.

The world needs more makers, not more managers.

All the best!

~~~
Cyberdog
I think I agree with this response the most. Even if this person didn't feel
much like being in a leadership position, that's still 15 years of real-world
experience and accumulated talent they just threw away. Unless this person's
code quality was somehow declining in spite of that, they just lost a huge
resource.

It makes me wonder if the OP got their lines crossed about the lack of
leadership thing being a significant part of the reason they got fired and/or
there's a significant part of the story not being told here, like maybe the
company is being pummeled by the effects of the pandemic and had to trim some
of their more expensive employees (of which someone with 15 years of
experience is likely to be) or something.

~~~
ellius
Yeah whatever happened here, the communication from this person's leadership
was bad. I'm not trying to vilify them—maybe they had their reasons—but OP is
clearly confused about why they were laid off and how (if) it could have been
avoided. If I were going to fire someone with 15 years' experience, I would
really try to give several clear warnings and actions leading up to it,
assuming that was my actual reasoning.

~~~
DavidWoof
"Fired" and "laid off" are two different things entirely. OP was laid off, not
fired, and I think it's reasonable to assume that the pandemic was the
immediate cause of having to cut staff. There's really no way to give several
clear warnings about that.

~~~
ellius
If that's the case, that's what should have been made clear. OP clearly
doesn't think that's what happened.

------
xtracto
I was a developer for about 11 years before I started in leaderships positions
"by force" (in a fast growing startup). For me as a technical person, being a
manager is very difficult, there are a lot of subtleties of people interaction
got completely lost to me several times... One time I "gave a rise" to a guy
and the way I put it he felt I was conditioning the rise to something else...
it was subtle and I did not know until after a year later while talking to
him.

People relationships are difficult. Then there is the "game" to play as part
being part of a company (once you are at the manager/director/vp level, you
have to understand that you represent the company to your peers. I have
something very interesting happen to me, one week I was a developer, peer of
my colleagues, we joked a lot and had a lot of fun interactions at work. Next
week I become "director of Engineering", become their boss, and the
interaction changed completely (it was not something I did, it literally
changed from one day to another).

Now, on the current state of things, I would not search a lot to what the
company told you, regarding why they let you go. At a previous startup I was,
at some point we had to make cuts, and all the VPs and C levels sat down in a
meeting looking at each of our teams, and then each team had to decide to cut
2 people. It was ruthless, and every manager had to explain to the person why
they were let go...

The best thing would be, if you had a more friendly relation with your
manager, that now, after the fact, you can have a informal call with him and
ask him, what do you think you could have done better in general to avoid
being affected by the layoffs in your company.

------
gvb
Not everybody is suited to be in a "leadership" position and that is OK. If
you prefer solving _technical_ problems rather than _people_ problems, you
aren't going to be a good fit for a "leadership" position.

Having said that, you do need to realize that the "glass ceiling" on developer
positions tends to be lower than on management (aka. "leadership") positions.
There often is lip service saying the "technical ladder" is parallel and equal
to the "management ladder", but it isn't in my experience. Fact of life.

Consequently, if you prefer solving _technical_ problems rather than _people_
problems, you will be trading off money for happiness.[1] In my book, that is
a trade-off I'm happy to make. In fact, I've deliberately chosen to stay in
the technical realm rather than "leadership" realm for 35 years now.
Especially early on in my carrier, my managers pushed me towards "leadership"
roles and I let them know I was not interested. While I have and will take on
a leadership role out of necessity due to circumstances in a project, I've
always made a point of reverting to the technical work when the crisis is
over.

I have less money but more happiness. That doesn't work for everyone, but it
works for me. Sounds like it would work for you.

[1] There are people that enjoy being in a leadership position. "Rands in
Repose" [https://randsinrepose.com/archives/managing-
nerds/](https://randsinrepose.com/archives/managing-nerds/) is a good example
of that. I'm happy for him and I'm happy for my managers who enjoy being in a
leadership position because that means I can focus and satiate my inner nerd.

------
gwbas1c
Without context, it's hard to know the real situation.

I was laid off at the end of February. To make a long story short, the product
wasn't selling well and the company had to cut costs.

In my case, my manager gave me a heads up months in advance. If you're still
in touch with your manager or people you worked with, try to find out the real
story.

\---

Think about some of the excellent experienced people you learned from early in
your career. You now need to be just like them.

\---

Career-wise, what kind of "leadership" is expected from someone with 15+ years
experience? A lead does the most important designs, sets the technical
direction, mentors other developers, takes part in bug triages, works on the
most difficult parts of a product, and interviews candidates. Sometimes the
title of "architect" is used.

You can also be a manager, or a consultant who can get in and get things done.

But, someone with 15+ years of experience isn't just a coder getting a bigger
paycheck than someone with 3 years of experience. Your career lessons need to
rub off on the younger developers. Otherwise, your large paycheck just turns
into a giant target compared to your cheaper peers.

------
iLemming
I (among a few others) in my team was laid off this week due to the COVID-19
crisis.

That never happened to me before. I have never once fired, laid-off, or
furloughed. And I don't know how to cope with this. The market has gotten very
tight since the beginning of the crisis. Usually, my email would explode
within hours whenever I make myself available for hire. Now I'm into the third
day of my unemployment and still have no prospects, no interviews, no offers.

Just a couple of weeks ago, I was tweeting about how concerned I was about
seeing so many developers losing their jobs. I was hoping we'd figure out
something, maybe a way to help them. Now I'm looking for a job myself.

Fuck this virus. And fuck those politicians who didn't take it seriously. And
fuck those people who still support them.

~~~
yellowapple
> That never happened to me before. I have never once fired, laid-off, or
> furloughed. And I don't know how to cope with this.

I've been in your shoes multiple times. It sucks, and it's easy to blame
yourself (or relatedly, for others - like here in this very thread - to
encourage you to blame yourself). Don't fall into that trap. It won't help.

The only productive thing to do is to take things one step at a time.

1\. Apply for unemployment if you haven't already. It won't be anywhere near
what you were getting before, but it's better than nothing, and with a layoff
it should be an open-and-shut case for approval (especially in places like
California that almost always err on the side of the former employee).

2\. Just because you don't have an employer doesn't mean you don't have a job.
Your unemployment benefits are contingent on you documenting that you've
applied for some number of jobs, which you're hopefully already doing, so keep
doing that.

3\. Just because you don't have an employer doesn't mean you don't have a job.
Open-source contributions, side projects, whatever you can do to further
demonstrate your value to prospective future employers (and - preferably -
make the world a better place in the process) - now's the time to start
cranking on those.

4\. Obviously, you'll want to trim expenses as much as possible. The lower
your costs, the longer your runway.

\---

In terms of finding that next job, it's gonna be a brutal affair. It took me
months, and I ended up compromising and moving _down_ on my career ladder for
a bit. You might have better luck, especially if you were previously getting
offers regularly, but I'd say 3 days is a bit too soon to be _too_
disheartened.

It seems like your best bet right now is going to be in the medical world
(e.g. hospital IT), and in fact that's exactly where I'd be applying right now
should my own job go under. As a bonus, if you really do want to "fuck the
virus", I can't think of a better way to put your technical skills to use.

~~~
iLemming
Thank you for your support and for taking the time to write a lengthy comment.
It seems my original comment looks like I'm complaining about my situation -
that wasn't my intent. I wasn't trying to win sympathy or start a
controversial thread to get fake gold or virtual likes; it isn't Reddit,
Twitter, or Instagram. I just wanted to point out that the market dried up and
even industries such as ours (where software engineers are usually in demand)
suffering greatly from the economic downturn.

> Open-source contributions, side projects, whatever you can do to further
> demonstrate your value to prospective future employers

That's what I was talking about. Why can't we all as a community figure out
some platform where we can help those developers who [temporarily] lost their
jobs? We all use lots of open-source tools without paying a dime. Wouldn't it
be great to have a platform where they can still contribute to open-source
projects during a transitional period? Platforms like Patreon and Github
Sponsors are aimed to help authors, but not contributors.

That was the whole point of my comment. I wasn't asking for an advice and
certainly wasn't ready for people telling me how incredibly lucky I am.

~~~
yellowapple
> Wouldn't it be great to have a platform where they can still contribute to
> open-source projects during a transitional period?

Indeed it would. Things like Patreon are still usable even if you're "just" a
contributor, but it'd be nice if there was one of these patron platforms that
better showcased open-source contributions. GitHub Sponsors is a step in the
right direction, but there's still a waitlist to be eligible for sponsorships
after, what, a year?

Of course, in all likelihood, if jobs are drying up then so will such
sponsorships, be it on existing platforms or entirely new ones.

------
pragmatic
Wtf dude.

Take a breath, everyone is getting laid off. Don't blame yourself, that's a
road to hell you don't want to go down right now.

~~~
harrisonjackson
Yep - this was my gut feeling also.

It isn't a bad time to reflect and improve yourself but I wouldn't take it
personally.

From your OP, I'd say...

\- grow a much thicker skin

\- form and share your opinion more often

\- actively seek out other leaders at your level or above to see how you can
improve _something_ (this is often just watercooler/gossip for
leaders/managers but it is part of the game)

\- take a more active part in guiding the team processes

If you really just feel comfortable as a developer then just guide the
development process - help create/iterate on/enforce style guides and other
development pieces. You can do this with very little people leadership skills
but still have a visible impact on an organization.

------
taleodor
First and foremost - it's not about you. Millions of people are getting laid
off daily now due to the exceptional circumstances.

It's ok to feel down for some time, but it's important to understand the broad
picture and not take this personally - regardless of what you were told.

Now, regarding leadership resources, I would recommend to start with the
following (in this order):

Moneyball (movie), books: The Goal, The Phoenix Project, The Mythical Man-
Month, The Hard Thing About Hard Things, The Culture Code and in-between those
- various Simon Sinek videos.

If you read this far, you should be able to continue finding materials on your
own from here ;)

Best of luck!

~~~
ship_it
Reading books doesn't pay you rent.

------
HeyLaughingBoy
One of the important aspects of leadership is learning how to listen. You said
management mentioned in passing that you needed to speak up. People rarely
come right out and say things. It tends to be oblique, in passing, casual
references. You will have to learn to pick up on those cues, read body
language, pay attention to unspoken signs.

I know that leadership can be taught, but I don't think it can be taught while
you're not already in a leadership position, or at least a simulation of it,
i.e., hands-on classes. Olivia Fox Cabane has a some YouTube videos on
Charisma that I think would be good to watch. She's a damn good communicator.

Take responsibility for the actions of the people you lead, do the things you
want them to do. Your actions will speak far louder than the words you say:
lead by example and all that.

------
brailsafe
In the same period of time, many many people haven't thought that their jobs
were vulnerable. The first time this happens, it's perspective-changing. My
expectations were set early on when I was laid off from my first job. There
are things I certainly didn't do as they were expecting, but that's not
necessarily your problem nor was it mine. They gave me the reason that they
didn't need me as a full-time employee and could basically outsource it.
That's fine. Since then, I've been fired or laid off for various reasons at
least 6 times and might be looking at another coming up soon. What it's taught
me is that I always need to bet against having stability, simply because
there's no evidence to suggest I'll ever have it. It's also taught me to never
put my employer before my well-being, and to bet much more heavily on normal
friends rather than anyone I met at the company—because when you go, so do
they. After every job loss, it took me at least many many months to find new
work and much introspection about how much I care about software engineering
or whatever. Just because you were laid off doesn't mean you need to learn to
be a better person. It just means you'll be on a break for a while.

~~~
Fr0styMatt88
Similar experience here. Two redundancies so far in my career and one job I
voluntarily left to do more study. The first redundancy was really difficult
but taught me similar lessons. The second one was nowhere near as traumatic as
the first.

Similarly, in both cases it took me a few months to find a new job. Reading HN
you can get the impression that there’s something wrong with you because it
seems like a software engineer shouldn’t be able to even cross the street
without being offered a job. I think that really depends on where you live and
how much of a network you’ve built. That can be difficult if you’re the
introverted type.

~~~
brailsafe
Even then, you might only get into a spot where to find another job you have
to go through 20 tests of skill + phone interviews + in person interviews only
to get passed over. Not often an easy situation to get out of, particularly if
you were let go from the last one.

------
drtillberg
Executive leadership is directive, actionable, factual, simple. It's not about
taking direction-- at least not overtly-- it's about giving it. You already
sound like a great person. Some great people also are leaders and executives
but I find as often that is not the case. Great people who learn the executive
mindset can be truly extraordinary leaders. They'll ask the question on
everyone's mind, and then outline a simple plan to solve it. They will break
the ice in a group, rather than wait for it to be broken. They will concede as
much of a point as necessary to establish and maintain their credibility.
People will trust them not to always be brilliant, but to do the right thing
competently and on time.

We all have some work to achieve that kind of stature, but from your question
I also sense the people you reported to were not a good fit for what I
perceive to be your likely leadership style. Don't take it personally, they
dont have all the answers.

------
overgard
Well look, if it was a layoff it probably wasn't personal. It's a reflection
on the economic conditions. Granted, you weren't one of the ones chosen to
keep, but that should be viewed as: how can you make yourself indispensable?
not that you don't bring value.

I don't know you enough to tell you what you need to do, but if you have 15
years of experience: you probably have useful things to share with the less
experienced. Most people want to learn, they want mentors, so if that isn't
happening maybe a tiny bit of reflection on how to be more welcoming. But man,
it's a layoff, don't kick yourself over it.

------
gwbas1c
(Can't stop thinking about this thread)

> In retrospect, higher ups did mention in passing about an year ago about how
> I need to speak up in meetings etc.

That's a critical point. If you have 15 years experience, even if you don't
have a "leadership" title, you are expected to demonstrate some leadership in
meetings.

First: In the meeting, you should be able to discuss tradeoffs, explain why
certain things are easier, safer, or more dangerous. You should be able to
give context and have an opinion. Your opinions need to be fair and unbiased,
or you should be able to point out that you're biased towards a particular
approach. You're in the meeting for your experience, both career experience,
and (if you've been in the job for awhile,) experience with the product(s).

Second, and this is more critical, but harder to do: You need to be able to
stop bad meetings. In some cases, this is a matter of just telling someone
that their 20 person invite list is too long. In other cases, you need to
interrupt people and force them to make their point or move on; or you need to
interrupt a meeting to politely excuse half of the people in the room who
don't need to be there.

Yes, it's technically management's job to stop bad meetings, but it's also
your job too. Stopping bad meetings is everybody's job, but it falls on the
most experienced people on a team to lead by setting an example.

~~~
p1esk
_You need to be able to stop bad meetings_

This is a really bad advice, especially in this context. Don't annoy or
confront your coworkers. Tell your manager if you feel like stopping some
meetings. It's strictly their job, and they will be happy to step in and do
that. Besides, any meeting of 20 people should have a manager present.

~~~
danielvinson
It really depends on the company. At every company I've worked at, either the
company was too small to be able to invite that many people (it would
basically be an all-hands) or the management was the ones planning these
meetings.

In my experience, the way to handle this is usually a quick Slack conversation
with the meeting organizer starting with "hey, I saw you invited all of team X
to the meeting - do they all need to be there or just Y". The response is
almost always "I don't know anyone on that team so I just invited them all",
and by initiating the conversation you are offering to help.

------
alexmingoia
Leadership is simple: Be proactive and do the right thing.

That’s it. But being proactive and doing the right thing is often painful and
difficult, so people avoid it.

We typically think of leaders as people being at the top of an organizational
hierarchy, but everyone in an organization can be a leader according to this
definition. Leadership doesn't arise from assuming a role, it arises from
using one's role to further the objectives of the organization.

You don’t need books and instructions on how to be a leader. You just need to
step up to the plate and have the courage to be one.

~~~
jojo2000
This. The leader is the target and his/her actions will be scrutinized and
critisized.

Yet if you build upon your team and create mutual trust, people will follow
you and work really hard. That's the rewarding part of the job.

Regarding higher-ups, you have to choose wisely, most of the time it's very
difficult because you give them what they want, but it costs a lot of time,
energy and money.

Be pedagogic, explain, and explain. The most difficult part is when you want
to take action that doesn't give reward instantly (CI/refactoring/...). Until
they've been bitten by this, they won't understand. But you won't know
beforehand, so ask the question in interviews !

Promote your best teammates eagerly and give them responsibilities.

Share as much information as possible with the team.

Enforce collective decision processes based on technical merit and cost (RFC-
style), to rally everyone to the chosen solution.

------
apohn
Question - Do you never speak up in meetings? Or you only speak up in certain
types of meetings with certain types of people?

Some people can be good leaders and speak up in meetings where they are
talking about an area they are comfortable in. For example, a senior or lead
engineer does an excellent job speaking up and leading in an engineering
meeting - but in a room with a bunch of business people they don't really have
anything to add so they don't say anything.

I only ask this because it's important to remember context. Sometimes people
are in expected to be leaders in a situation that does not fit them. In other
situations they can do well. Just something to keep in mind.

As for the layoffs...don't take it personally. If you were a good developer
and your management was too short-sighted to realize you might fit better in a
different role, that's not your fault.

------
austincheney
> I am soul searching for a week now, and finally I got over my anger,
> disappointment and anxiety and ready to move on.

Why would you be down on yourself? Many many developers at many companies are
being laid as many companies are folding and many others are hanging on by
their nails. This is the current economy.

I have retained my job only, and I cannot stress this strongly enough, because
I am lucky enough to work in an essential industry (banking). That's it. I
don't know you, but I would place a hard bet that it has nothing to do with
competence, capability, or performance.

> I think I don't know how to be a leader at a workplace.

I figured it out when it was dropped in my lap. My first time to really really
own a large team as both a people and business leader was about 5 years ago. I
was just some dumb army guy, but withing a short time frame the leaders around
me moved on leaving me with 29 people to manage. I was told I did well and
received letters of recommendation to pad my warrant office packet. The
opportunity just dropped in my lap and I just performed as well as I could.

My actual first time in management, this was military as well and was also not
of my choosing, I was 24 years old and I only had two people working directly
beneath me, but I had two business units that provided oversight for. In that
role I mostly just ran operations. I was the managing technician in charge of
operations for the 335th Theater Signal Command and ran all ops for all void
and data communications in Iraq, Kuwait, and Afghanistan during the 2004
surge.

I have never made it into management in the corporate world. Perhaps I am just
waiting for it drop on me, which likely won't ever happen. The morale of my
story is that you don't really know what kind of leader you will be until you
are leading. The most important thing I learned about it is that if you take
care of your people and ensure the mission always comes before you the people
you manage will try harder to make you a success.

------
flashgordon
I had been coding for about 18 years before I realized almost all of my
learnings had come form side projects and work for me was a way to get
dissappointed (unless I sacrificed money for interesting work). While I could
learn technical things on the side, I realized I could not learn "leadership"
on the side so switched to management (a very important "component" of
leadership). For me it was the best decision. Still slapping myself for not
having done this 10 years earlier as soon I felt like I wasnt really learning
much technically as an engineer that I couldnt on my own.

DM me. If I can do it, anybody can (I definitely still have a long way to go
though but happy to share learnings and surprises).

------
AOsborn
OP, a quick comment as I think many replies you are receiving are missing the
forest for the trees.

We do not live in a meritocracy. For better or for worse, your "job
performance" does not have a one-to-one relationship with how well you perform
at your job.

Your "job performance" is based on how you are perceived by those reviewing
you. If you have a disconnect between your work and how you are perceived, you
probably need to improve how you market and present yourself. Consider this as
just another part of investing in yourself.

Translating back into developer-centric jargon: the best technical solution
isn't automatically the best. You need good marketing and product-market fit.

------
derekp7
I've had similar experience as you in a previous job. No matter what, I
couldn't get people to listen to my ideas, and it actually felt like I wasn't
part of the in-group (similar to certain high school experiences).

My solution took a few things. First, like you, I was part of a layoff. I
eventually came to realize that the company culture was a big part of it, as I
really didn't have that issue at previous employers (although I wasn't in, or
expect to be in, a leadership position at that point in my career).

Secondly, I had to shake off imposter syndrome. Part of the feeling was that I
was constantly working with newer technologies, and therefore always felt like
a beginner. So I took a step back, and went for a position that was purely
Linux based. Then, I approached the position as if I was a consultant who's
job was to go in, identify trouble spots, and provide solutions. Getting into
that mindset helped immensely, and combined with shaking the impostor syndrome
feeling, allowed me to nail the interview.

Finally the last part was taking ownership over several key areas, things that
I identified as having lacking skills in the organization that I could fill in
for. This involved lots of cross training -- initially one on one, then
building up to group training sessions (effectively meeting where I was the
leader). That, combined with working with other key individuals in the
organization helped me to understand what problems they needed solving, and
from there delivering on those solutions (and not just writing code -- but
starting off with the base documentation, such as functional requirements
documents, system design documents, risk assessments, making pretty
infographs, elevator pitches, the works).

Oh, and being the go to resource when other team members run into issues
helped to build up a reputation that brings with it respect from various
levels of the company.

Here's an idea -- many C-suite execs have customers that they handle
personally -- these are long term customers that the particular exec handled
from early on in the company. Find one, that has a nagging problem that you
can solve. Make them happy, they tell the C-suite about how pleased they were
to work with you, and you have a high level person that will go to bat for you
in the future. Just make sure that you never screw up that customer.

------
as-j
So sorry to hear you lost your job, it's pretty traumatic, going from working
every day, dead lines, things that important to suddenly, none of that's
important and not your problem. Personally I've found it jarring the few times
it's happened to me, and it's really hard.

So a few thoughts:

1\. Were you the only one laid-off or was a portion of the org?

2\. 3.3 million people in the US filed for first time unemployment last week,
and it'll surely be similar this week.

A couple of weeks ago I got asked "what if we need to cut engineering staff?"
And we ran the numbers. Of course the first thing I did was push back, we
won't be able to hire them back, it's an amazing team of dedicated engineers,
if the bad times are 4 weeks this will gut our skill set, at this level what
managers are left, do we need any? Certainly don't need me. Thankfully we
found a way through without cutting engineering staff.

It's pretty dreadful on the engineering management side, though not as
devastating. I never want to let any of my team go, but I can't be a petulant
child either. :(

How we pick people...sometimes it's seniority, or experience with the
product/team/etc. Sometimes you just have to reduce to meet burn rates.

I don't want to recommend any 1 leadership book. But leadership comes in big L
and small l versions. Technical leadership is important, and something I would
expect out of any team member with 15 years experience. Much of the literature
focuses on how to be a big L people leader, but if you want to stay technical
ferret through all the books and find a book focused on how to be a technical
leader/architect/etc.

------
sevilo
After reading these posts of people being laid off after 10+ years and having
a hard time coping with it, I’m kinda glad I was laid off less than a year
into my first job when there wasn’t even a crisis.

To OP, layoffs are very common now and know that more will come soon because
of COVID, it’s not within your control and doesn’t make you a bad developer,
companies need to make cuts at times like this to keep afloat, you don’t need
to blame yourself.

Take a deep breath, it may take more than a week to recover and don’t be hard
on yourself. I’d find it hard to believe that you’ve truly overcame all the
stages of grief in just a week, when I was laid off the first week I was still
going through denial, and was trying to find a new job ASAP to prove myself.
By the look of your post chances are you’re still in denial too. You have 15
years of exp under your belt, give it time to think about where you’d like to
go and what you’d like to be doing in your next role, it will come to you
sooner or later.

------
cthulha
Three books that you should read, and why they will help you at this point:

1\. High Output Management, Andy Grove \- Explains management from first
principles in a very engineering mindset. You'll understand the value of
meetings, one-on-one's and so on.

2\. Mastering the Rockefeller Habits, Verne Harnish \- Explains the structure
of a business, and the priorities and trade-offs of rapid growth. A bit more
holistic and pragmatic than #1, and assumes you're stepping up into new roles
and responsibilities relatively frequently

3\. Critical Conversations, Grenny/Switzler \- Talks about the need for (and
differences between) discussion/conflict/control/coordination in communication
in an org. Reading this should help you recognise when and how to speak up.

These are more management than leadership, but I found that a strong basis in
management made it easier for me to step into leadership when necessary - I
knew the why/what/how of the technical and organisational sides of the matter,
and built trust and respect on that competence/understanding.

Ping me by DM if you want more customised recommendations - There's books like
Pat Lencioni's '7 dysfunctions of a team' which are excellent for helping you
recognise and address the most obvious flaws in a team, and it's a great
starting point for becoming a good leader.

I'd also recommend things like therapy or the Landmark Forum as a way of
working through your feelings about leadership and the way you relate to
people. Leading people will bring out a bunch of positive and negative
stereotypes in you and the people around you, and I don't think there's a
better way than doing the emotional labour of recognising and working through
those issues - you start getting into territoriality and survival-mode
mechanisms when you are in charge of teams, and so much of it is kept below
conscious awareness because the emotions involved tend to be overwhelming and
imprinted at a very young age.

~~~
kingludite
*crucial conversations

------
m33k44
> "I believe I was expected to perform as a leader on top of solving problems,
> writing applications and my lack of leadership skills made me not worth my
> paycheck. In retrospect, higher ups did mention in passing about an year ago
> about how I need to speak up in meetings etc."

I think this needs to be resolved across industry. The so-called "leadership"
should learn that not all fingers are equal but every finger has use and
value. Similary not every employee can be a leader and extrovert. It is the
leadership's responsibility to identify and make use of "silent souls" on a
team to greater effect. In my career I have seen people who are introverts to
be very capable when given a right environment; in fact they exceed others on
the team. Forcing people to be what they are not is not a good leadership
practice.

------
jerome-jh
Trying to answer the actual question. I have seen leaders/managers any style.
You do not have to be big mouthed or particularly assertive, although in some
organizations that may be more or less expected from a manager.

What I think is required though is the ability to handle gracefully
unmotivated or deceptive people, blatant liars, tired ones or those who have
personal problems. At the other end of the spectrum, you have to keep a
relevant distance from those you may admire, or even be attracted to.

As for planning, you will have to handle a number of events that are out of
your control but still affect your project.

Personally I can do none of these. I am way too sensitive. And I still am a
developer. I think there is easily work for 20 years as a developer, but then
a number of specialties will face increased automation.

------
georgespencer
> mention in passing about an year ago about how I need to speak up in
> meetings [...] I think I don't know how to be a leader at a workplace

It sounds like at the very least your boss doesn't know how to be a leader in
the workplace either: if you have a shortcoming which is impacting the way you
are perceived by your leadership team, or your job performance, then it is
incumbent on leadership to:

1/ Help you understand the deficiency and determine whether it's real, or
optical (for example: "I see John coming in late all the time! That guy is
really lazy!" vs. "Wow, John comes in late and leaves early but he's SO
productive when he's here!")

2/ Provide you with clear practical steps you can take to improve, and what
the impact of you improving will be (on you, on the business)

3/ A clear expectation on what the consequences will be if you do not improve
(is it just "you're gonna be a midweight forever dude", or "the skills you
lack are vital for this job").

Most people have a cap on where their natural intuition and instinct can take
them as leaders. Going beyond that requires coaching, mentoring, and training.
If you were hired into a leadership role but can't lead, then it's a
deficiency of their hiring process. If you were hired as an individual
contributor (IC) and are being expected to lead, then you need coaching.

Do not accept the part of your brain which is telling you that this is on you.
If you were fired because you can't lead then that's terrible leadership in
and of itself.

Find somewhere with a strong engineering culture and great leadership. Be open
that you are worried about being stuck in Individual Contributor land forever
and that as part of your development, you want to receive coaching from a
leader who can help you adopt a leadership mindset. Make it clear this is not
about promotions, titles, or pay grades: you want to understand leadership and
have regular conversations with someone who is leading.

You do not need to be humbled.

------
loopz
That's just BS. Nothing about being a developer today has anything resembling
leadership role. If that were true, developers would be coached, that never
happens. They would decide what to build themselves, they do not. Others
decide what, when and how to build everything, using backlog, scrum and
sprints. You would have a say over how things should progress, odds are if
you're too focused in coding, your head is in a totally different place.

There are options though. If you're happy just being a coder, you'll probably
have to accept all of the above and a not high paycheck to boot. You get job
satisfaction, and maybe the right place won't have an axe hanging over your
head.

Getting into other roles, will require you to focus elsewhere. If your job is
coding, you need to stop coding for a while. Find out how you can get others
to do your work, coach them, while also working to elevate the tech stack,
take risks that pays off, test new stuff. This requires to go beyond regular
paycheck, study stuff all the time etc. You might become Tech Lead, but only
if you become useful to others across the board. Not about you anymore, but
best not to stop coding to keep fresh.

Architect? That could be a next step, chill.

I'm sorry to say that there are not so many realistic career paths on the dev
track, but switching to IT, brings lots of opportunity - both as generalist or
as specialist with higher pay. You will learn to stand on your own feet in BS.
It'll be hard to impossible to keep current coding wise. Though, there are
much more opportunity to rise to be a natural leader than to be an introvert
dev staring into monitor all day.

Too bad this is all there is in current systemic conditions. Probably no
leader is vested in you, interested or knowledgeable / connected enough to
mentor you to put you on the right track. Lots is either natural knack and/or
pure dumb luck. What always helps is knowing the right people and working hard
to expand skills and value to others. Same as with being born by the right
parents, being taught by a true teacher or working for a wise natural leader.

------
arnmac
My company just had a lay-off. Lots of good people gone not because they did
anything but because the market we are in tanked. Went from a we are going to
crush it this year and hiring like crazy to WTF in a matter of weeks. I feel
extremely bad for everyone that got laid off. Bad time to lose your job.

Since everyone was working at home there were no goodbyes or good luck. I had
people on my team I realized I didn’t even have their cell phone number to
check in on them.

Feel for you. Don’t beat yourself up. Find best thing you can and work to prep
yourself for the next thing.

------
ddevault
A good leader is connecting people to the right mentors; going to bat to help
someone's good idea come true; recognizing natural areas of expertise for
contributors to develop their skills in; identifying, predicting, and
preventing bottlenecks in the process; and making sure information flows
smoothly into, out of, and within the team. Think about what the people on
your team need and what little strings you can pull to make their lives easier
and help them to feel more productive, fulfilled, and impactful.

------
m0zg
Protip (for when the jobs situation improves): change jobs every 2 years or
so. That way people won't have any preconceived (and largely incorrect)
notions about you. It's useful to start from a fresh sheet of paper from time
to time. It also helps with getting better pay, since you can't be treated as
a piece of furniture and you always get market rate, which tends to go up over
time. Or at least it did for the past 2 decades.

~~~
onemoresoop
And you also experience different companies. Not all companies are the same. A
job title that is a nightmare in one place can be a pleasure in another.
Sometimes you question yourself because you dont have recent experiences to
compare it to and once you do, you may realize it was simply a bad place to
work at. When you’ll look back at this you’re going to somehow be grateful it
happened this way. This will open you to new experiences. Granted, you’re
gonna be forced out of uour comfort zone. Good luck to you and don’t forget to
trust in yourslef

------
rntksi
Start with managing people and expectations outside of your team.

1\. Speak up. Not everyone understands the problem like you do.

2\. When you speak, start from the reason why something needs to be done.
People reason better forwards, from the "why" to the "what". Don't go straight
to the "what" unless you are 100% sure everyone is already on the same page.

3\. Be prepared to learn from different types of people. The people who are
good orators.

We all wish you best of luck.

------
alexis_fr
Don’t change anything now. I’m not saying « don’t change », but I’m saying
emergencies are a bad time to evolve on character traits, particularly because
you may be believing an excuse that they used to fire you, when in fact you
were just redundant or your boss arrived late at the meeting where they
decided of the people to fire.

Secondly, I once asked your question and a friend answered that most managers
land their position by necessity for the company. They were here when the team
grew. Or created their company, so they had to manage it. Most managers just
deal with what is happening. Most people don’t know what they are doing, or
why they have been selected. Sometimes there is no rationale. So don’t sweat
it too much, because being relaxed and easy to manage plays a good part in
career success.

For me it was much easier to be a manager than be an employee, because as an
employee you are expected to compete and establish your presence (such as
speaking up in meetings); As a manager you have entirely different incentives,
it was way more intuitive for me.

------
caseyf7
First off, this is about the world taking a downturn than your performance.
Rather than focusing on traditional leadership, focus more on listening and
teaching. The higher ups usually want someone who actively listens, asks
good/productive questions, and is able to teach the younger team members how
to execute and avoid the mistakes you've learned over 15+ years.

~~~
uvw
It's really not. I saw the signs since early January. They were waiting for me
to finish a project that I was working on. This was way before people in US
got serious about the Pandemic.

~~~
Andys
Not that it helps, but the world was beginning to take a downturn before the
pandemic.

------
hi41
I have similar problems like OP. Lack of leadership has been a problem with me
both at home and at work. When I get the change to be a leader, I chicken out
and don't tell my juniors what needs to be done because I feel I am not worthy
of being a leader. All the thoughts of my own failure come rushing to my mind
I feel that I am not qualified to be a leader. One day the director told me
that I don't have it in me. I felt so bad. I have a colleague who is really
good at talking even though he is technically less qualified than me. When
there is an issue he is able to talk and stand his ground. I on the other hand
can't handle issues and feel very anxious. I don't know how to overcome this.
Like the OP said, if someone can suggest a book it will be great. I have over
20 years of experience and still am a contributor and not a team lead or
manager. I have also had depression and two instances of severe anxiety
attacks for which I received medication.

~~~
sianliu
What helped me overcome my sense of self-worth, lack of confidence,
depression, anxiety were regular exercise, meditation, yoga, spiritual
development, always learning, and never giving up. The book that shaped my
perspective with regards to being a leader and success in my professional and
personal life was "The Diamond Cutter" by Michael Roach. Note: I am a free
thinker. HTH

~~~
hi41
Thank you. I will read the book. I have not exercised in years. I will
incorporate trust.

------
blihp
First, figure out what you want for yourself. Are you even interested in a
leadership position? If not, all working at it is likely to do is make you
miserable. In that case, you'll probably need to adjust your compensation
target down a bit because as you become more senior in pay, there is often an
expectation of some form of leadership traits to go along with it. Many
companies won't financially reward technical excellence alone.

If you're interested in a leadership role but just don't know how to go about
it, you need to decide what _kind_ of leadership role are you interested in.
The technical aspects of the project? Leading a team? Moving into management?
Something else? (people on the business side will almost always try to guide
you to managing people since that's usually the most commonly
accepted/rewarded career track... but it's not for everyone) Once you know
that, _then_ you can go about developing the needed skills.

------
caminante
Instead of guessing or mind-reading, I encourage you to ask your former co-
workers (peers and supervisors) directly for concrete examples where you
didn't perform or suggestions for areas to improve on.

Reality testing is critical. Ask them out to lunch or coffee and frame it as
seeking their thoughts as a means to improvement, not bitterness about the
divorce.

------
Skunkleton
It seems like you are doing your best to improve yourself here, which is
great. I wonder, however, if your skills are the problem? We are in an
unprecedented economic situation, and I can't comment on the stability of the
company you were laid off from.

There are a few comments in this thread agreeing with your self-assessment
that a person with your experience should have leadership capability. You
probably should. That said, you don't know that is why you were let go. It may
just be why you hadn't been promoted. A few of the places I have worked have
been happy to let people hang out as senior engineers indefinitely.

If I were you, I would reach out to your former managers and coworkers to see
if they have any feedback they can give you. You would be especially well
served by reaching out to a manager at a company that _didn't_ let you go. Do
you have a boss you are still in contact with from a job you left voluntarily?

------
eldacila
Lots of people are getting laid off, I've only 2 years experience, and was
laid off a week ago today, I was told it was a necessary downsize, because the
company had suddenly stopped selling as much, I've been applying for other
jobs, but because I've got savings, I can survive even if I don't find
anything for a few months, just like you, I'm taking this time to fill gaps in
my skillset, learn new things, and focus on my university courses

also, getting laid off and getting fired are different, lay offs are usually a
financial thing, it's not about your skills, you weren't in the wrong, they're
trying to minimize how much they spend (including how much they pay employees)
so you could probably get a recommendation from your former employer

stay strong

------
ianmcgowan
Sorry to hear that, but it looks like you're taking this as a growth
opportunity. It seems like your management failed you somewhat - management is
not easily learned from books, much better to have mentors and people modeling
the behavior expected in a role like that.

Before you start down this road, I'd ask yourself if you _want_ to be a
manager. You can lead, based on your experience, but that doesn't mean you
need to have people reporting directly to you. I was a manager in an IT group,
and while everyone liked me (I'm a likable guy!) I wasn't particularly good at
the managing part. It made me miserable to not be good at my job and I'm much
happier consulting/contracting now.

------
bizarchitect
Sorry to hear that, I have been in your position in the past, I know how it
feels. Learn charisma, learn social dynamics, learn how to communicate with
people properly. It makes a huge difference. And it is a learnable, like
coding or riding a bike. There are many great books, you can start with this
classic [https://www.vitalsmarts.com/resource/crucial-
conversations-b...](https://www.vitalsmarts.com/resource/crucial-
conversations-book/). Let me know if you need more info.

------
unexaminedlife
I think as soon as you remove yourself from the equation it becomes a lot
easier to know how to "be a leader" IMO.

Some people take offense when others seem to be "encroaching" on their
territory.

When looking at a problem and a room of people trying to address that problem
draw the line between the ROOM and the PROBLEM. A lot of times the way people
speak about or address things is by first drawing a line between the people in
the room, and then draw another line between the room and the problem.

------
SergeAx
There is no actual urgent need for software engineer to be more "leaderish".
It is totally okay just to do your individual contribution, build expertise,
give good task estimations, solve problems, things like this.

I beleive it is a better idea to get strait feedback from your manager about
actual cause of your discharge. Maybe you are just plain wrong about it.

------
Foober223
I wouldn't try to micro analyze the reasons for your layoff. The "speak up in
meetings" critique is a standard go-to for performance reviews. It basically
means you are doing pretty good and they just need some filler for the
critique section.

This is a time of troubles. People of all personality types are getting laid
off.

------
ignasl
It seems you still don't know exact reasons why you were laid off. Did your
managers tell the exact reason during your lay off interview? Maybe it's just
bad luck with current situation. Did your managers tell you about lack of
leadership problem at any time during your reviews and one on ones?

------
PopeDotNinja
If you need help with your resume, feel free to ping me. I'm a dev now, used
to be a recruiter, and am pretty good at landing interview opportunities
myself.

Also, if you need practice with interview questions, I liked Elements of
Programming Interviews in Python: The Insiders' Guide.

------
sys_64738
Just remember they're people too and not infallible. You might have the most
inspiring leader or technical expert but when they're in a meeting with their
superiors then they're totally different. They sounds almost like you might.
Don't be intimidated.

------
bl4ckm0r3
Become an expert in what you do, care about others, work to convey your
principles and values to them, excite them through the technical decisions you
made or will make and inspire them through your vision. Be the person that
sees through the cloud.

------
keithnz
there is no real context here, but

Leader != "I need to speak up in meetings"

The problem here might be more general, not communicating enough. You might be
technically competent but there's a problem when the level of communication
isn't high enough. Countless problems (an unnecessary development) can be
avoided through high bandwidth communication. Even when it might be
unjustified, if people feel like people aren't communicating, then they wonder
if perhaps problems are getting created that could be avoided simply because
that person isn't speaking up. It leads to frustration. This may not be
applicable to your situation, but I thought I'd throw that out there

------
murm
Did anyone give you a reason why you were being laid off? If they gave you a
reason, then how truthful would you consider it to be thinking about it now,
given that you're not angry, disappointed or anxious anymore?

------
awaninthecloud
Be A leader

A leader's job often includes changing your people's attitudes and behaviour.
Some suggestions to accomplish this:

Begin with praise and honest appreciation. Call attention to people mistakes
indirectly. Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
Ask questions instead of giving direct orders. Let the other person save face.
Praise the slightest improvement and praise every improvement. Be "hearty in
your approbation and lavish in your praise." Give the other person a fine
reputation to live up to. Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to
correct. Make the other person happy about doing the thing you suggest.

Thanks to Dale Carnegie. "How to win Friends & Influence People"

------
morty_s
>So I come here being humbled

Humility is something many never get an opportunity to learn. But at the end
of the day humility does not pay the bills.

Read or listen to Enders Game, by Orson Card.

------
TheDesolate0
Right there with you buddy.

Oddly enough I have an education in emergency medicine and can't seem to find
work...

------
quirkafleeg3
AEAB (all employers are bastards)

------
billman
The truth is that good talented people lose thier job. Don't lose faith in
yourself.

------
WheelsAtLarge
I can give you one tip.

\--Over a period of many years I found out that you can't please everyone and
you can't be everybody's friend. So don't be afraid to speak up. Get informed,
make a decision and speak up. You may be right or you may be wrong but follow
thru and lead by example.

Think about this and act on it.

~~~
eyegor
It can be a delicate balance if you're not consistently outspoken. I've found
the most success in trying to provide new proposals instead of
critisim/feedback on others. No one minds an idea that sparks discussion, it's
pretty rare that anything is a "waste of time". The reason I led in with "if
you're not outspoken" is that if you're typically quiet and start giving out
bad but discussion sparking ideas, it will probably lead to office drama. If
you always give your opinions then people will get over it immediately and
meetings will be more productive. No one wants to talk to someone who seems to
only critique things, but lots of people want to hear new ideas.

------
jlbnjmn
Read "High Output Management" by Andy Grove. If you learn to do 20% of what's
in that small book you'll be ahead of 80% of so called "managers".

For leadership, read "Good Strategy, Bad Strategy".

------
g_langenderfer
trial & error >> book knowledge on this topic, IMO. Get your reps in: \- start
a business \- teach a live online coding course

