

Life inside the North Korean Bubble (with video) - mapleoin
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8701959.stm

======
ugh
I get the feeling that South Koreans are a lot less keen to be unified than
West Germans were before the cold war ended, probably justifiably so.

There was at least some exchange between West and East, nothing like the
complete isolation of North Korea. East Germans could just turn on their TV
and watch some West German television when they wanted to compare systems.
(Areas the West German TV signals couldn’t reach were called “Valleys of the
Clueless” :) East Germany was also one of the most “progressive” eastern bloc
states, supposed to be a showcase for actually existing socialism. And, as far
as tyrannies go, one of the milder ones, while Kim Jong-il is all the way up
there with Hitler and Stalin.

Then there is time: East Germany survived for forty years, North Korea is in
its seventh decade. It survived the last twenty years without a cold war
keeping it alive (except the one between North and South Korea, I guess).

The German unification cost billions and caused many problems. By no means an
easy process that’s now, twenty years after it started, by no means completely
finished. So I kind of can understand South Koreans who are weary of the
prospect of unification. Unification did work out ok. I don’t know whether
that would have been the case had East Germany been a lot more like North
Korea.

~~~
lionhearted
I was in South Korea last month and there's a few different attitudes. There's
a general sense that there should be one Korea at some point or other, though
people disagree on the particulars based on what they focus on when they think
about it.

Some people think the opportunities for manufacturing and development in North
Korea are going to be great and are excited to have more Korean companies do
their manufacturing in NK instead of China going forwards.

Many of the younger people are excited about the idea of no longer needing two
years of mandatory military service, which is currently required mostly
because of the North Korean threat (the older generation was more patriotic
towards military service, the younger generation seems to see it as a bit more
of a burden).

Some people are afraid of the ripple effect on the economy, in fact a lot of
the Koreans I asked were aware of the West Germany/East Germany example you
mentioned.

The general sentiment seems to be about 50/50 - half in favor of unification
the sooner the better, half in favor of having North Korea as a separate state
but with much friendlier and greater cooperation between them, and with a
better government in the North. The older people seem more in favor of a short
term unification, the younger people seem more disposed towards having North
Korea be a separate state until they're ready to join back up.

Everyone - _everyone_ in South Korea hates Kim Jong-il, and most people seem
kind of embarassed and blush when you mention him.

~~~
patio11
_There's a general sense that there should be one Korea at some point or
other_

This is a quite popular opinion to express publicly, but I think the support
for it is rather shallow. When push comes to shove, unifying Korea would have
immediate economic impacts to South Koreans more severe than the United States
swallowing Mexico.

(South Korea has 48 million people who have essentially Italian living
standards. North Korea has 23 million people and is _desperately_ poor. The
day the border goes down every man under the age of thirty in North Korea
would try to cross to South Korea, looking for _any_ available job. That
historically does not endear large immigration populations to their host
nations.)

~~~
w1ntermute
I highly doubt the border would just "go down". That would be an economic and
logistical disaster for South Korea.

~~~
patio11
I agree. This gives us the prospect of a democratic nation with internal
passports and a border where you'll be shot for trying to cross. I don't think
that is likely, which is why I'm pessimistic about the odds of reunification.

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starnix17
If you want to see more of North Korea from the inside (and from a tourist
perspective), I highly recommend the Vice Guide to North Korea:
<http://www.vbs.tv/newsroom/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-14>

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cubicle67
I recommend the British documentary A State of Mind
<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0456012/> as another rare insight into North
korean life.

It covers about a year in the life of a family who have two young girls
training in preparation for the Mass Games. Utterly compelling and handles a
very difficult subject matter with sensitivity and without passing judgement.

~~~
orlandu63
Netflix also has this documentary available for on-demand streaming.

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mikecane
I looked at the BBC video embedded there. I noticed the DELL logos. It makes
me wonder how the DELL logo is explained to the students who encounter it. Are
they told DELL is a Korean company? Do they wonder why they don't see that
hardware elsewhere?

~~~
w1ntermute
Yeah, I'm surprised the logos aren't removed from the computers.

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MarkBook
Having the benefit of hindsight in looking at outside interventions elsewhere
(Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan etc ) I think that maybe the best thing would be
for all other countries (including China) to stop interfering in North korea.
It's not possible of course

~~~
lionhearted
I agree in theory, but I'm reminded of a quote by Trotsky - "You might not be
interested in war, but war is interested in you."

North Korea is on China's borders, thousands of people each month sneak into
China from North Korea, and their crazopathic government is next door to China
no matter what. I think China being very mildly pro-NK is a case of "Keep your
friends close, but your enemies closer." North Korea is probably the biggest
potential threat to China if relations were to break down between them.

~~~
MarkBook
This is something that always puzzles me. How come it's accepted as a given
that countries cannot seal their borders. The Soviet Bloc were pretty good at
it

EDIT also the border between north and south korea is pretty tight

~~~
gaius
The UK is an _island_ but our borders have more holes than a colander. Illegal
immigration and people smuggling are a huge issue here, and a political hot
potato. The problem must be 10x worse for countries with land borders.

~~~
MarkBook
I don't buy this. What's lacking is the political will to secure the borders
of the UK. If the UK is so porous then how come Germany wasn't able to stroll
over in 1940. People have been told that's it's impossible to keep out
illegals and through repetition and the evidence of their eyes have come to
believe it. Meanwhile in 'nice areas' the only illegals visible are the
domestic servants who would otherwise be unaffordable. If countries are as
helpless to prevent immigration as is generally implied then we might as well
dismantle borders altogether.

~~~
rmc
> If the UK is so porous then how come Germany wasn't able to stroll over in
> 1940.

A few thousand unorganised migrant workers who are trying to smuggle
themselves in with no more than a suitcase each and try to hide in the corners
of soceity when they get there is quite different from a massive uniformed
army with tanks and trucks who then try to take over the running of the
government when they get here.

Also the army was legally allowed and ordered to shoot the Germans who were
trying to come over, whereas they is not the political will to shoot migrant
workers.

~~~
Mark_Book
It's not the will to shoot illegals that's needed, simply the will to
implement the law as it stands by putting in the necessary resources into
border policing and deporting those illegals who are discovered. Almost all
illegals into the UK entered as paying passengers, ie they needed a ticket. If
commercial carriers can police their passageways why can't the government
police the doorways to those routes?

------
narrator
This is a preview of the future without oil. The North Koreans lost all their
oil subsidies from the Soviets in the early 90s. That's why they had the
famines in the 90s, nobody drives cars and why there are no tractors.

------
callahad
The list of search results displayed from the DPRK's search engine was
interesting. The query "handbook" brought up quite a few hits on IBM's
Websphere Application Server, and even a guide on deploying UMTS towers. Does
anyone have more information on how the country's network access works?

Edit: Some discussion over at <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1426919>

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Bjoern
Ah this again, I call dupe. We had this 8 days ago.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1406757> (more interesting discussion
there)

------
vinhboy
Anyone know why NK keep letting these videos get made, even though it makes
them look like total douche bags? Do they really believe something good would
come out of it?

~~~
rmc
Allowing forgein visitors is one of their main ways of getting hard forgein
currency, that they can then use for trade.

~~~
InclinedPlane
I doubt that's anywhere near as significant as the hard foreign currency they
get via arms (and technology) trade (a circa $100 mil/year business at least).

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jlcgull
doubleplusgood!

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mkramlich
I hold that the existence of North Korea, and it's conditions, makes a mockery
of the United Nations. How can the world community of nations allow a country
like that to exist and treat it's people like that? Why do supposedly "good"
and civilized nations allow that to continue? Yes it might require military
action to end it. But perhaps it would be worth it in order to reduce the
suffering of 20+ million people.

~~~
gfodor
This is a highly simplistic analysis, if for no other reason that any attempt
to use force to rectify the situation will result in the needless death of
likely thousands of innocent South Koreans.

~~~
mkramlich
... as opposed to the millions who have probably died under North Korean
misrule, and the thousands or millions more who will likely also die in the
future due to it?

I disagree it's a simplistic analysis, and I even disagree that a "simple"
analysis is inherently bad. But I think we both agree that people dying is a
bad thing.

~~~
zavulon
I would agree with you... unfortunately, there's only one thing that
complicates the matters: nuclear weapons. If attacked, NK would of course be
overwhelmed - but not before doing some massive and catastrophic damage to
their near and not so near neighbors.

~~~
InclinedPlane
Nuclear weapons hardly change the balance of the equation even.

So much of South Korea's population lives in the Seoul metropolitan area and
within range of hardened, well-hidden North Korean artillery that it makes it
a near certainty that any hot-war on the peninsula would come at the price of
hundreds of thousands to millions of South Korean deaths. Add in nuclear
weapons, unconventional warfare (who knows how many sleeper terrorist agents
the DPRK has in the South), and conventional battlefield losses and you get a
horrific butcher's bill on both sides for any likely engagement. Stacked
against that the ongoing horror visited on North Korea's citizens by its own
regime is not enough to warrant such sacrifices, sad as that is.

