

Tesla Motors' history, according to Elon Musk - johnrob
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=73

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ckinnan
Tesla has taken a $350 million loan from the U.S. government -- that's more
than a million bucks from Uncle Sam for every car they have ever sold. The
taxpayer gets absolutely no upside on the deal, except the hope that we get
our money back, but the millionaire equity owners and the foreign automaker
Daimler get unlimited upside. It is another "heads we win, tails you lose"
deal from Congress and their cronies.

~~~
vaksel
the least they can do is use that money to make an affordalbe electric car for
people. Something with a $25K price tag.

It's not like it is impossible to do.

Tesla S is $50K...you can probably slash 5-10K by having them use a smaller
base vehicle, instead of the Jaguar XF.

Smaller base vehicle means you need less batteries. The S weighs 4,000 lbs. so
by using something the size of a Civic for the base vehicle, you can probably
slash the weight down to 2,500 lbs. Which means you can probably get away with
using 4,000 battery cells instead of 8,000. So if they pay $5 per battery cell
that's another $20K saved.

Bam electric civic sized vehicle, for $25K.

~~~
tptacek
Maybe Tesla should have done a mass-market product, or maybe not, but your
argument is exceptionally weak.

Iff you're right, and Tesla could get their unit cost down to $25k (a final
BMW sticker price, FWIW), they'd still be left with the challenge of bringing
a mass-market product to market. They'd have to build a sales and delivery
channel, create a supply chain that could sustain the volumes required to run
a lower-margin business, and, after all that, be competing in a segment that
services value-conscious buyers, many of whom are already confused about the
difference between hybrid and PEV.

That's iff you're right. But you probably aren't. Because you're swagging
materials costs out of thin air when talking about a product that went from
$140k in materials alone to $80k in a span of months. That was apparently a
harrowing crisis for a product with a six-figure sticker. For a car that would
go up against a BMW 3-Series, they'd have no such margin of error.

In the end, you have to ask yourself what the world should be getting from
Tesla. If it's technology, then who cares who they sell it to first? Why would
you ask them to pursue a business model that increases the chances that
they'll go out of business before they ship rev2, rev3, and rev4? Why does the
final product even need Tesla's badge on it? Maybe, like many other luxury
manufacturers, Tesla's badge will always be prohibitively expensive, but their
components will OEM to much more cost-effective platforms from Daimler.

~~~
vaksel
How many taxpayers would approve of giving taxpayer money to subsidize
$100,000 toys for a bunch of rich guys? The least we should get is some
technology in exchange. Or at least an affordable option for the general
population that's footing Tesla's bills.

Technology is nice and all, but someone always has to foot the bill. If it's
the taxpayers they should at least get something in return.

~~~
tptacek
Should the government give money to Tesla under any circumstances? I don't
know. But if they're going to give them a loan, I hope Tesla pursues a
business plan that keeps them operating long enough to pay it back. Tesla
simply has a more effective go-to-market plan on high-end vehicles than they
do with a mass-market product they're not equipped to deliver.

~~~
Create
I am under the impression, that it is only a badged Lotus form with M-B
providing function.

Public risk, private profit. As it has been for a while.

~~~
tptacek
That's orthogonal to the point this thread is discussing, which is whether it
would have been better for Tesla to pursue a lower-end vehicle. It seems
obvious that it wouldn't have been, since PEV's are an unproven early-adopter
product, and since the mainstream auto manufacturers have something like a
half century of sales and delivery infrastructure over Tesla.

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jmtame
Impressive! And kudos to Elon for coming out in the public to talk about this,
even though he didn't need to. Read it start to finish. It's well written,
well cited, stays professional and doesn't make personal attacks.

If it's true, I have no sympathy for the former CEO, as he really screwed
things up. Tesla seems to be in better hands with Musk, who I've always
admired personally (which could make me biased, but reading this has confirmed
by feeling about it).

EDIT: I don't think of myself as too biased. I admire Musk, but Martin
Eberhard graduated from Illinois, which is where I go to school. I would see
both as innovators, but Martin seems to have stepped way out of line on this
one. There is a huge rivalry with UPenn, so I can't claim too much admiration
towards Musk ;)

~~~
tjmc
Agreed. It's interesting to compare the tenor of Musk's post with Eberhard's
posts on his blog <http://www.teslafounders.com> which IMHO are didactic and
often petty.

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randallsquared
"To save legal fees, we just copied the SpaceX articles of incorporation"

What?! Such fees must be, at most, a few thousand dollars; it seems really
weird that someone worth what Musk is would do this just to save (what is for
him) pocket change.

~~~
bullseye
When Musk was interviewed in Wharton's podcast, one of the key points he
pushed was the ability of a startup to keep burn rate low. It appears that his
philosophy on spending is genuine, and not just lip service, which I find
pretty refreshing.

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johnyzee
The piece on AutoblogGreen was a somewhat different (and more neutral)
account. In case you missed it:

[http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/23/autobloggreen-
qanda-...](http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/23/autobloggreen-qanda-tesla-
motors-chairman-elon-musk-pt-1-in-th/)

I have an impression of Elon Musk as a self-aggrandizing money guy, but I
admit that it may just be my prejudice showing.

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ph0rque
Very interesting... despite his best effort, Elon does come off as a passive-
agressive, controlling guy IMO.

~~~
tptacek
When you buy 98% of a company, you aren't "a controlling guy". You are the
controlling guy.

