
Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S - 7Figures2Commas
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-consumer-reports-tesla-models-20151020-story.html
======
simonsarris
As Consumer Reports suggests, this is totally understandable. Straight from
CR:

> The Tesla wasn’t the only high-performance vehicle that fell below average
> in reliability. Others include the BMW X5 and 5 Series, and the Chevrolet
> Corvette.

> When automakers roll out new technology, be it infotainment, transmissions,
> or engine variations, it often has a deleterious effect on vehicle
> reliability. Tesla is not only the poster child for a new type of high-
> performance, high-mileage EV, but it also has been adding complex new
> variations as assembly-line updates, such as all-wheel drive this year. So
> it’s not surprising to see problems continue to crop up.

> Despite the problems, our data show that Tesla owner satisfaction is still
> very high: Ninety-seven percent of owners said they would definitely buy
> their car again. It appears that Tesla has been responsive to replacing
> faulty motors, differentials, brakes, and infotainment systems, all with a
> minimum of fuss to owners.

The CR article is here: [http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-
reliability-doesnt...](http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-
doesnt-match-its-high-performance)

It's not easy to accidentally slip on a banana peel and buy a Tesla, so I
think most owners would understand the risks of buying a brand-new car
company's product loaded with brand-new tech. For some that's part of the
appeal. I suspect the market is over-reacting a little.

~~~
encoderer
Tesla's PE in 2016 is forecasted over 130. For comparison bmw is under 10.
Tesla is priced for perfection.

~~~
beat
Tesla is a growth company that could be a giant. BMW is a stable old blue
chip. Different market values entirely.

At the individual car level, Tesla S is priced to match mid/high end sedans
from BMW, Mercedes, and Audi, so that's the quality level they need to hit.
And such quality isn't about reliability so much as fit and finish. Tesla is
doing extremely well against very established competition in that regard.

~~~
tdees40
Tesla' market cap is $30B. GM is $53B. Ford is $61B. If you're buying Tesla,
you have to believe that they will become a huge player, and soon. They can't
just be bigger, they have to be huge or else you're radically overpaying for a
niche producer.

~~~
jkestner
Don't forget batteries. Rolls-Royce did well with jet engines, probably better
than cars.

~~~
VLM
Agreed and don't forget licensing. OK so TSLA makes squeeky sunroofs, who
cares, they can sell batteries and controllers and motors to ... construction
crane companies or something. You know all the weird details of making a tow
truck, cool, here's the parts to make it electric.

Happens all the time in the automotive industry. The first "american"
hatchback car I ever drove had a nice VW engine. Ironically it was something
to do with low emissions.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
Well, Tesla buys their batteries from Panasonic. And the motor is a standard
induction motor, not very different from what the actual (Nikolai) Tesla
invented back in 1887. I agree that their control system is going to be fairly
complicated, since induction motors require the AC frequency to be a function
of the torque as well as the RPM.

But then most applications outside "quick 0-60 pure electric car" use
brushless DC motors instead, where the controllers are simpler. Even the
insane McLaren P1 hybrid, which eats Teslas for breakfast, uses a brushless DC
motor. So I'm not sure there is as much of a market for Tesla's expertise as
you'd think.

~~~
josephagoss
I had no idea Tesla but the batteries from Panasonic, I thought the entire
point of Tesla is that they build them in house? And what about the
Gigafactory?

If it's all truly Panasonic's tech, I am surprised so many people put their
money into Tesla.

~~~
dagw
Panasonic is a major investor and partner in the Gigafactory. They're also
providing the initial cell manufacturing technology and over a hundred
Panasonic employees will be on site helping with the setup.

------
Lightbody
I got my P85 in July 2013 and I can absolutely confirm what Consumer Reports
is saying.

My car has (and continues) to have all sorts of small fit-and-finish issues.
While I've never had a drivetrain issue or any major problem, I have had some
wireless and door handle issues that required as new Master Control Unit.
Sadly, the work replacing the MCU introduced even more squeaks in the
dashboard area :(

That all said: I _still_ love the car and I expect I'll buy another Tesla some
day in the future.

~~~
agumonkey
I suspect other high end brands don't have fit-and-finish issues, but is it
true or just brand distortion field ? any actual bmw / mercedes owner ?

~~~
to3m
My mother's 2015 BMW 320d has needed to go back to the garage at 6 months old
to have its sunroof replaced. A BMW 320d isn't especially high end, it's true
- but I imagine that (aside from the engine...) it consists of mostly the same
parts as something fancier like a BMW 335i or 335d.

My dad's 2011 BMW 640i, probably closer to the Tesla in terms of price point,
seems to have been trouble free so far.

------
aresant
Interesting that this important line was omitted from the LATimes article:

“Despite the problems, [CONSUMER REPORTS] data show that Tesla owner
satisfaction is still very high: Ninety-seven percent of owners said they
would definitely buy their car again."

That is a direct quote from the CS article and featured in other prominent
media. (1)

I get that a negative CS article could potentially influence brand perception
for non-owners but seems somewhat irresponsible to report only the negative
side of the story especially when the Tesla LITERALLY ranked #1 in Consumer
Reports 2014's Automotive Satisfaction.

(1) [http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2015/10/20/teslas-
pe...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2015/10/20/teslas-perfect-
score-from-consumer-reports-doesnt-mean-its-100-reliable-far-from-it/)

(2) [http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095745_tesla-model-s-
to...](http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095745_tesla-model-s-tops-
consumer-reports-customer-satisfaction-index-again)

~~~
Zelphyr
This is why I no longer consume mainstream media news. They ALL have an agenda
and that is either to scare you or make you angry. And they obviously don't
care about lying by omission in order to garner views.

~~~
jegutman
The scare people is bad, and immediately feels like worse reporting than the
"makes you angry kind", but in the long run I'm much more concerned by the
trend of news consumption heading towards the "makes me angry" kind. It can't
be good for overall mental health.

~~~
TeMPOraL
It can't be good for the health of society either. All those little anger-
inducing tweaks add up, shaping national sentiments and thus voting patterns.

------
crabasa
Comparing Tesla to existing car companies misses the point entirely. Telsa is
an energy platform company that is investing in delivering (Supercharger
network) and storing (Gigafactory) energy. Cars are certainly the current
"killer app" today, but are likely to be followed by many other applications
in the future.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
Yes, it's starting to look as though the cars are merely a shell for the very
profitable batteries they're going to be cranking out in Nevada. Perhaps the
whole Tesla car idea was a buyout play -- get established, build a name, then
sell the whole thing to GM for $30 billion.

Once the battery plant has economies of scale, they'll be fueling a whole new
generation of electric vehicles by other makers, perhaps including the
upcoming Apple and Google auto-pilot offerings (the _Nexus car_? the _iCar_?).

Then there is the home and small office market for backup power, storage of
daytime solar energy, off-grid and remote locations e.g. ranger stations in
national parks. It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out.

~~~
dragontamer
Except those uses of energy are better solved by Redox-flow batteries,
Compressed Air Energy Storage (CAES), or pumped hydro.

[http://energy.gov/oe/services/technology-
development/energy-...](http://energy.gov/oe/services/technology-
development/energy-storage)

A single $5 Billion pumped-hydro plant can store 30 Gigawatt-hours of energy.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Sta...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station)

The energy demands of this country will be met by utility companies and their
massive infrastructure projects. A few hundred MW-Hrs from Tesla is pretty
small in the great scheme of utility energy storage.

~~~
crabasa
I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that Telsa is competing with utilities
to store energy _at scale_. I meant storing energy for personal use
(vehicles/homes/etc). They will certainly source all of their energy from said
utility companies.

~~~
threeseed
We've had energy storage devices for homes for a while now.

It isn't exactly tearing up the market. Very few people are willing to pay the
significant upfront cost for the benefit of ongoing but small reductions in
power bills. And that is with government subsidies (at least in Australia).

I don't see how Tesla's superior technology is going to affect the product
proposition.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
Similarly, we've had electric cars for a while, and we've had high end sports
cars and sedans for quite a while, but Tesla came along and blew most of them
out of the water. Except for range, which will be solved sooner or later, it's
a stunning tour de force, especially coming from an American manufacturer.

I have faith that Elon Musk will also think of a way to disrupt the home
energy storage market, which in my opinion scarcely exists anyway. People have
clunky, loud generators for emergencies, and it's possible to get rechargeable
batteries to store your solar power, but there's not really an elegant
solution yet to the after-dark problem. A quiet, high capacity "home battery"
such as Tesla is planning might just be the ticket.

~~~
dragontamer
[http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/10-kw-home-
sta...](http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/10-kw-home-standby-
generators.html)

You can get 10kW of power from a Gas generator for $3000 (hooked up to a
Propane fuel tank... or to a gas line if you trust those). A 500 gallon
propane tank will keep you running virtually indefinitely, and will only cost
a few thousand after installation costs.

So you're realistically looking at $5k to $6k for a gas generator solution for
a lot of people.

In contrast, Power Wall is $3500 for a paltry 2kW of power... not enough to
even run my air conditioning unit let alone the rest of my house. This cost
does not include the inverter, the additional batteries that need to be built
out, or the electrician who needs to come out and set this all up. After that
extra money spent... it is unlikely to run for much longer than 24-hours.

It is clear what the sane, reliable solution is. A gas generator. The Power
Wall doesn't come anywhere close to the specs.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
The Tesla website says the $3500 battery is 10 kWh.

Anyway, the prices will undoubtedly come down over time. Competition from
China, etc.

~~~
dragontamer
kWh is energy storage. I'm talking about kW: kilowatts. Tesla's batteries can
only output 2kW.

This means that the PowerWall can't even supply a typical 3-ton air
conditioner (which uses up 3500Watts of power).

Lets just look at your typical appliances: your air conditioning is on (3.5kW
starting, 2kW running), your refrigerator turns on (1200W starting, 200W
running), and then the Sump Pump started to go (2kW starting, 1500W
continuous).

Just preventing your food from spoiling and your basement from flooding is
going to require TWO powerwalls before the inefficiencies of an inverter.

I'm not even talking about capacity (kWh). I'm simply talking about the amount
of power the Tesla batteries are rated for. 2kW (3.3kW peak)

\--------

> Anyway, the prices will undoubtedly come down over time. Competition from
> China, etc.

On the contrary. It looks like Tesla is trying to loss-lead on batteries to
help scale up their Gigafactory. Tesla is assuming the cost will come down
already, and is burning cash until it happens.

------
tdees40
I had a conversation with a (recently-departed) Tesla mechanic the other day
(who has had experience working with every other type of car), and he said, "I
knew every Tesla owner in the tri-state area on a first-name basis. Everything
breaks." He did say that it's getting better with the newer models.

~~~
beeboop
Everything breaks on other cars, too. I am not really sure what you're getting
at with this comment. A mechanic sees nothing but broken cars.

~~~
tdees40
Maybe this wasn't clear in my earlier comment, but he has been a mechanic for
lots of other types of cars, and he stated that the reliability was materially
worse than other cars.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I think what people don't get is, A lot of Model S owners have no problem
paying to be beta testers. Problems occur, but Tesla is fantastic about fixing
them quickly through their service centers.

------
brianstorms
My 2013 Model S has had its share of issues. My car is on its third
drivetrain. Am I unhappy about it? Nope. Was it a hassle? A little. Was it a
show-stopper? Nope. Did Tesla always take care of the issues to my
satisfaction? Absolutely. Would I buy another Tesla? Not only YES but I cannot
imagine ever buying anything else ever again.

Tesla's huge weakness continues to be communication between company and
customer. That is and always has been my number one area of concern. Not
reliability. Except in terms of communications reliability. They are terrible
at managing expectations. At providing quick and timely updates. At explaining
functionality (ESPECIALLY in the age of autopilot) for not only safe driving
but also simply maximizing enjoyment of all the car's capabilities. Tesla as a
company is a shambles when it comes to communicating. It unfortunately
continues to be a low priority to fix it. I wish CR would ding Tesla for lousy
communications. Because customer complaints about their weakness as
communicators go unheeded.

But I would still buy a Tesla again and plan to.

~~~
macNchz
I'd say your expectations around car ownership are significantly out of line
with a typical car buyer or someone who may be reading Consumer Reports. I
don't think most people buying cars have any real expectation about
communication or any relationship with the manufacturer of their car, and
having the drivetrain replaced twice would seemingly be a dealbreaker in terms
of brand loyalty for a great many car owners.

Obviously early adopters make for a different market, but I think your
experience only serves to confirm Consumer Reports' latest report.

~~~
secabeen
Out of curiosity, why would a drivetrain replacement be a dealbreaker? The
replacement is usually a one or two day job in the service center, and they
give you a loaner Tesla while they have it. Why do you care if they pre-
emptively replace your drivetrain?

~~~
foobarian
It's hard to gauge how widespread these failures are if only people who had
problems report in. My anecdata point is that my 2014 Ford had no issues
whatsoever and I would find it extremely annoying if I had to waste time
driving to/from service centers for things that most modern cars haven't been
failing at for years. Even more so if I paid as much as the Teslas cost.

------
Htsthbjig
After you drive a Tesla, you feel everything else is outdated.

Today I drove a conventional car and it just feels so clunky and slow.

On the other hand, I prefer a normal key for opening my car, a simple, proven
tech that works. Tesla has all those "someone had this idea and incorporated
it in the car" that is typical of startups.

Everything has to be new and this makes reliability suffer in little stupid
things, the basic experience is far superior to anything else.

The same happens to Apple in new products, you pay extra and you are the
Guinea pig on anything new they include, think on ghost screens with retina
display.

~~~
sharkweek
Not that I can afford a Tesla anyways, but... I really like my old Toyota
4runner for the same reason you like a traditional key.

I like being able to open it up and follow very clear mechanics while
generally understanding what I'm looking at.

------
outworlder
That is kinda expected. This is a new company after all, with new technology.

What I didn't see in the article was: how are they handling the failures?

It is one thing to have a car that's unreliable, but that you can then take to
a dealer and get it back a couple of days after with everything fixed. It is
another if you have to fight the company every step of the way to get it fixed
or, even worse, pay for their mistakes out of your own pocket.

~~~
skorecky
They address this in the article.

> Tesla spokesman Ricardo Reyes said the Palo Alto automaker keeps in close
> communication with its customers to “proactively address issues, and quickly
> fix problems.”

~~~
outworlder
Yeah, but do they?

As far as companies go, I have a decent level of trust on statements by Tesla.
But it is still a company, and that statement has to be independently
evaluated.

~~~
mediaman
Based on commentary in various owner forums, it seems that Tesla is handling
these issues generally very well, and makes repairs without some of the common
quibbling of a lot of dealerships. So while it's annoying to bring in the car
frequently for problems, they do at least seem to be handling the problems
well.

A lot of owners however seem concerned about what will happen after the
warranty period, when these repairs start costing the owner.

------
6stringmerc
Okay, I'll be sure to dial back my 'traditionalist' bent when it comes to
vehicles and technology, it doesn't help make any points.

...but with the Model S as the 2nd iteration of a Tesla vehicle, and their
first "ground up" model, how does this bode for the often stalled release of
the Model X? It very much reminds me of issues faced by software companies,
but there's some leeway being given to Tesla I don't think is really deserved.
As in, if the last release was really buggy over the course of several years
of fixes and patches (and the occasional feature removal like the swappable
battery packs), then should expectations be tempered?

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on the company and what its products mean for the
industry as a whole.

~~~
digitalzombie
> how does this bode for the often stalled release of the Model X?

I would wait for version 5 to come out when they work out all the kinks.

They'll sell like hotcakes cause CUV is a thing. They were very smart to make
their 3rd car a CUV.

------
notJim
Seems like a great opportunity to get yourself some (relatively) cheap $TSLA.

~~~
RockyMcNuts
I struggle to come up with any metric on which TSLA is cheap.

------
Overtonwindow
I still think we should give Tesla the benefit of the doubt. This article
feels like a hit piece, again. At the very least, it's a media organization
gleefully taking a hit at an innovative company. I support Tesla less because
it has great cars, but because it's really trying to build a better car.

------
derekp7
Seeing as how the battery system is primarily what makes electric cars
expensive, I really wish automakers would start delivering plugin hybrids that
have, say 75 - 100 mile range on battery (to keep cost down), along with a
very low horsepower gas engine. (Most plugin hybrids give you about 20 - 30
miles on battery).

The way it would work: the battery would drive the front wheels, and you would
use the battery for most of your driving -- but when it got down to 20%
charge, the gas engine would kick in to power the back wheels. The battery
could provide acceleration, and the gas engine (about 20HP?) would maintain
highway speed (and trickle charge the battery when running off gas). That way,
you are using electric for most of your daily driving, but won't get range
anxiety.

~~~
cjensen
Your suggested configuration has very big downsides. Basically, your config
would be an electric car which carries around a complete internal combustion
engine, gas tank, and exhaust system just in case it runs out of battery. For
simple commutes and around town, you'd be better off jettisoning the weight
and cost and getting a slightly bigger battery.

The hybrid car as originally conceived is genius: Small and efficient gas
engines are very gutless. Add an electric motor to fix the gutlessness and
improve efficiency in stop-and-go circumstances.

Electric cars are wonderful too. Trying to combine the benefits of all-
electric with a hybrid is questionable.

~~~
6stringmerc
Do you have an opinion on the Jaguar C-X75 concept?

[http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/analysis/jet-power-
bla...](http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/analysis/jet-power-bladons-
microjets-enable-jaguar-turbine-hybrid/1005528.article)

~~~
tempestn
Wow, that looks really cool. Sadly it was going to be a million dollar car,
and it was cancelled in 2012 after only 3 prototypes were built.

~~~
6stringmerc
Well, yeah, traditionally the highest grade technology gets deployed in
performance or luxury settings first, then makes its way down to mass
production. IIRC that's what happened with airbag systems. So I don't see the
genesis avenue as inherently limiting. MTT made the RetroRocket and it did the
whole Hot Rod Power Tour without any significant issues, I think.

------
orrsella
Shares reportedly[1] down 10% due to report.

[1] [http://seekingalpha.com/news/2840766-tesla-lower-after-
consu...](http://seekingalpha.com/news/2840766-tesla-lower-after-consumer-
reports-cites-model-s-reliability-issues)

~~~
rafamvc
But still have 97% saying they would buy the car again? That is a statistic
that doesnt match the claim that the cars arent good.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
There is a category of car, where the buyer identifies with a group. They
don't buy the car for price or service record; they buy it to join a club. The
VW Beetle; the PT Cruiser; Cooper's Mini all are cars like that. It doesn't
matter what resale value they have, or how often they break down. All that
matters is the self-image of the person doing the buying. They go into it
knowing they will like the car, no matter what. So the 97% number is entirely
expected.

------
lifeisstillgood
So some sales figures from random unchecked websites

Tesla: 10k/qtr or 40k cars pa BMW: 26k/mth or 312k car pa

So BMW sells 8x tesla (lots of hand wavy around figures), and tesla is selling
at 13x BMW

Seems like a good bet - Tesla just needs to replace one of the worlds major
brands. VW just imploded so there is room in the market without any major
shifts.

[http://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-finally-giving-us-sales-
numbers...](http://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-finally-giving-us-sales-numbers-but-
not-the-o-1695499966)

[http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1122009](http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1122009)

------
rev_bird
I've read most of this stuff before and am still excited to get a Tesla once a
more reasonably priced one comes out. One thing keeps bugging me, though: If I
wanted to get up tomorrow morning and drive across the country in a gas car, I
could do it no problem. When I run out of fuel after ~325 miles, I just stop
for 10 minutes at a gas station and head back out on the road. With a Tesla, I
need to carefully plan out charging stations <200 miles apart and stay there
for what, at least an hour at a time? Do Tesla drivers just not go on road
trips?

~~~
dcgoss
[http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger](http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger)
has all the information you need. Realistically, an hour is the higher end of
the waiting time - you can get significant range in fractions of that time.
Additionally, the navigation software on the Tesla will automatically route
your road trip through Superchargers, so you don't have to calculate where you
need to stop.

~~~
rev_bird
I knew there was a pretty extensive network of superchargers, but I really
underestimated the nav. Really appreciate the reply.

~~~
hvidgaard
It's a great help, but your original point still stands. With a ICE you can
simply point on a map and start driving. With a Tesla, you have to make sure
there is super chargers on the way, even if the Nav helps you, you still
aren't free to do as you want.

------
ck2
This is where if companies were honest they'd send out cards

 _" Thank you for beta testing"_

as maybe a 10th generation owner someday, I say thank you to all previous
owners too for spending the money to work out the bugs

------
datashovel
"automatically retractable door handles". Forgive me for being ignorant about
this, but as soon as I read this (that not only it exists, but is a "signature
feature") I couldn't help but wonder why...

Does anyone here know why such a feature would exist? Sure it makes one ooh
and ahh when they're about to buy it, and probably the first few months after,
but does anyone think if this feature does not perform perfectly, it could
only possibly cause more buyer's remorse than anything else?

~~~
swampthinker
Aerodynamics. Protruding handles are a source of drag, so it was eliminated.

~~~
datashovel
The thing that gets me is I read that it causes people to be locked out of
their cars if it doesn't work right. I've seen plenty of cars without
protruding handles that don't lock you out of the car.

I wonder if anyone would care if they were shown the math behind the amount of
drag it reduces vs. the possibility of temporarily being locked out of their
cars on random occasion.

------
late2part
On the one hand, they're a new company relative to the others; they are taking
many risks, and they won't perform flawlessly - so I give them a lot of slack
for trying and mostly succeeding.

Also, they are very good at fixing things when they screw up.

On the other hand, their stock price is WAY over valued. Hopefully we will get
gentle ratchets to bring it back down to earth, such as this.

~~~
beat
I'm not convinced the stock is overvalued. Tesla could end up not only making
cars, but reworking the whole electric grid. How often does a company get to
change a fundamental utility like that?

------
ZeroGravitas
Oddly, I was just thinking the other day about how Tesla had a reputation for
being a bit prototype-y but I hadn't heard anything about it recently, so I
concluded they'd massively improved.

Based on this they're better, but still not great.

Was it not Consumer Reports that had a string of issues with their first model
S, or was that another car magazine?

~~~
thewopr
Are you thinking about the NY times article?
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-
the...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-
highway.html?_r=0)

~~~
ZeroGravitas
No, I remember that as well, but there was someone that had the car and liked
it but needed to get lots of parts replaced. Edmund's maybe? Yes that was it:

[http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-
tes...](http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-
up.html)

------
pneumaio
Is interesting how much influence Consumer Reports wields relative to other
publications that review and rate products.

Don't own a Tesla, or have an opinion on their reliability, but wonder
sometimes if we don't need a Consumer Reports for Consumer Reports.

------
johnward
I'm a Tesla fan and I actually expect this from a new car company with their
first product from the ground up. They need to figure this out if they want
the Model 3 to be mass market though. I want to buy it and it doesn't even
exist yet.

------
ricardobeat
Só Lexus, the one that kills people with a stuck accelerator, is the most
reliable. Okay...

~~~
rmah
I'm pretty sure that was found to be caused by people accidentally hitting the
accelerator.

------
anonbanker
This is the best time ever to buy Tesla stock. it's being globally shorted.

------
bsder
Just HFT algorithms attempting to get ahead of each other.

------
briandear
I wonder how many CR editors shorter Tesla stock before this was published. It
wouldn't even be considered insider trading. I don't really put much stock in
CR, unfortunately, the markets did -- quite unfairly actually since most folks
buying Teslas aren't doing comparison shopping using CR.

~~~
kpwagner
The number is zero. Any more than that would be a serious scandal--can't
imagine that would be legal. Market manipulation is a pretty serious crime
ever since the days of Jay Gould.

~~~
Overtonwindow
I'm not so sure, remember when it was perfectly legal for members of Congress
and their staff to use information gained through their jobs to make stock
purchases? I mean this was just a few years ago....

~~~
aetherson
Is it your contention that Congress also created a special exemption for
Consumer Reports? That seems like:

a. It credits CR with a lot more power than CR actually has.

b. We would have heard about it before now.

~~~
Overtonwindow
I'm not saying that consumer reports did anything wrong, but insider trading
or not, it happens. And places we would not expect. Who would've ever thought
that members of Congress in their staff would be allowed to do insider
trading? Until someone pointed out that it was illegal some years back, it
never crossed my mind. I assumed it was illegal

