
Sweden offers glimpse of a world without Amazon - kome
https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-amazon-competition-ecommerce/
======
Agentlien
I'm Swedish and I don't quite recognise parts of the narrative, here. It's
true that we seem to have more diversity in our online retail market and many
of the big players are Swedish sites (cdon and Webhallen, for instance).
There's no single big player which dominates the way Amazon seems to do. So,
I'm definitely following that part of the narrative. I also agree that
Prisjakt (and, to a lesser extent, Pricerunner) are an integral part of the
way we interact with online retailers.

But when they talk about lack of same-day delivery and make it sound like the
lack of Amazon means we're missing out on a superior selection of wares, then
I'm not following.

I mean, I wouldn't mind same-day delivery (is this, or next-day, available for
every single product, or just a selection of products?), but having to wait a
day or two on average is nothing I've personally felt any existential dread
about.

Also, it's been years since I noticed that there were products available via
Amazon which I couldn't get at a reasonable price from a local online
retailer. This used to be the case, but it definitely seems things have
improved.

~~~
alkonaut
If I order from Webhallen and similar I usually get next day deliveries (I
live in Stockholm), but not even Amazon will be able to next-day-deliver to
all corners of Sweden. I can't imagine Amazon does that in the US either?

I also don't miss any products, or envy the prices when comparing smaller
stores to Amazon.de or uk.

The us amazon seems like a place where you can get anything, quickly and
cheaply. The uk/de stores seems like they have limited selection not as good
prices (even accounting for tax and currency differences). I get the feeling
that Amazon US is this vast logistical network that makes super cheap and
super fast shopping available. And at the same time amazon.uk/de seem like
regular online warehouses offering no real price or delivery time benefit over
the next store. Does that sound right?

~~~
phamilton
> next day deliveries

Swedish mail service is generally next day delivery for pretty much everything
within Sweden. That's not so with the US postal service (expect 2-3 days for
most things) so that right there is already a key difference.

~~~
vinni2
I wish Norwegian post was like Swedish one. We are lucky if the stuff we order
gets delivered same week! Also delivery to door is more expensive and they
have stopped delivering post every day that’s part of the problem. All due to
privatization ans cost cutting strategy.

------
gardaani
There have been rumors that Amazon will start free next day deliveries in
Sweden, Finland and Denmark [1], but it hasn't happened, yet.

That was actually a wake-up call for local web shops and the post office in
Finland. The post office is now starting same-day deliveries so that local web
stores would have an advantage over Amazon and other foreign web stores.
Simply having a threat of Amazon is improving the situation here.

[1] [https://metropolitan.fi/entry/amazon-finland-denmark-
sweden-...](https://metropolitan.fi/entry/amazon-finland-denmark-
sweden-2018-free-next-day-delivery)

~~~
gadders
Wow, it's like capitalism actually works.

~~~
bepotts
Yeah, all these people acting like Amazon is just some giant company that
didn't earn its size due to customer service and convenience are just
ridiculous.

Amazon entering a market is a huge deal and a net good for the consumer. I
live in a city and between Amazon Prime, Amazon Fresh (I never have to go
grocery shopping anymore), and Amazon Restaurants, Amazon is quickly becoming
the only place I need to do all my shopping. All of this for a low price. They
even have Wal-Mart looking at offering same to 2-day shipping.

It's ridiculous to say Amazon isn't some net good for a market.

------
Zyst
I'm in Mexico, Amazon entered the market a couple of years ago here.

It was night and day, the existing competition (Mainly Mercadolibre) started
getting way better, but still Amazon is a superior shopping experience.

Prime shipping is way faster than anything else, piracy is not a problem,
which is a huge issue with Mercadolibre (Although I've heard people in the US
complain a lot about that)

To clear up how piracy was an issue, and how Mercadolibre is complicit in it I
once ordered a LAN adapter for my Wii U. The pictures in the post were the
official Nintendo ones, the adapter cost around what the official ones did. So
I bought it, anyway I instead get a Chinese knockoff I saw on Aliexpress for
somewhere around 1 dollar. I contacted Mercadolibre customer support, and they
mentioned that even though the image was the Nintendo one I would not get a
refund, because I didn't ask the seller if the product was original before I
bought.

Anyway, I'm a happy Amazon user. As for the underdog narrative in the article:
Screw that, underdogs mostly suck. When a tech company is hegemonic it usually
isn't a matter of pure supply, or location: It's because for the most part
they do things right, or at least better than their competition.

------
dexen
In Poland the dominant online marketplace is our domestic Allegro.pl. Started
off in 1999 as eBay equivalent - mostly individuals selling new and used goods
- but in recent years it developed more into direct competition with Amazon,
by catering to shops and brands, purchasing and offering its own parcel
delivery service (both courier service and pickup machines), and online
payment processor. Just recently it even introduced equivalent of Amazon
Prime.

Unfortunately I have no insights how Allegro managed to stay ahead of the
global heavyweights. Probably combination of polish language UI and catering
to specific needs of local market.

Currently while both eBay and Amazon have sizeable presence in Poland, the
Allegro.pl is still the go-to place, and seems to be able to hold its own
pretty well, up to and including expansion to neighboring CEC countries. Even
the Amazon fulfillment center that opened in my city recently is mostly geared
to handle the German market rather than polish.

~~~
petra
One big manufacturer of parcel lockers is polish. So i wonder - how popular is
using parcel lockers for e-commerce is in Poland?

Also, using parcel lockers can make a lot of the logistics much easier, and
this might explain how allegro.pl could offer a Prime like service.

~~~
dexen
Personally prefer it over any other method - the most comfortable pickup in a
mid-sized city, given somewhat irregular office hours. I've noticed some
friends were having serious misgivings about trusting this method of delivery,
but having tried it once, loved it. Apparently for 2017 it was apparently 22%
of buyers, over 11% in 2015. [1] Worth noting is that the same service
provider (Inpost) also handles courier delivery and pickups at gas stations
and other such.

As for sellers, surprisingly not every one is providing this option yet.

edit: Notably some models of the parcel lockers welcome users with rather
heartfelt messages - and count and show the short time it took to pick up the
goods. Those trivial functionalities makes it so much more joyous to use.

[1] [http://www.dlahandlu.pl/detal-hurt/wiadomosci/po-firmach-
kur...](http://www.dlahandlu.pl/detal-hurt/wiadomosci/po-firmach-kurierskich-
paczkomaty-najpopularniejsza-forma-dostawy-e-zakupow,64176.html) "

~~~
jacobush
Volvo is rolling out a service where you can get stuff delivered into the
trunk of your car.

~~~
dexen
Tesco offers similar service - shop online, drive up to the mall, get
groceries deposited directly to your car's trunk. Haven't tried it yet.

~~~
jacobush
That's not at all similar. What Volvo offer is: _regardless of where your car
is parked_ , before the day is over, your postal package can be found in the
trunk of your car.

It's almost like magic. :-P

~~~
transpy
I just read the article about trunk delivery. It blew my mind, I was honestly
amazed that this exists. [https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/24/17261744/amazon-
package-d...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/24/17261744/amazon-package-
delivery-car-trunk-gm-volvo)

------
mft_
I live in Switzerland, which is also without local Amazon, and previously
lived in the UK, where I was an enthusiastic Prime early-adopter.

Honestly, it's bloody frustrating, and I'd love it if Amazon opened a
significant local presence with prime delivery options. What I miss is the
combination quick cheap delivery, and easy access to a wide enough range of
items such that rarer things --often those related to hobbies, or rarer
cooking products, for example-- are easily available.

The alternatives are frustrating, often-fruitless hunts through local shops;
independent Swiss e-tailers with high prices and usually very high delivery
costs; or international mail order with the attendant delays and customs
issues this route brings.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not totally pro-Amazon, and I wish that they would
improve their labour practises... but losing the sheer convenience it brings?
In some ways, it's like going back in time.

~~~
chrisper
Do you live close enough to any border? Might as well just get it delivered
there and import it yourself.

But I agree with your point. It is really frustrating to find certain things
in Swiss shops. And even if you do it is just crazy expensive.

~~~
mft_
You're right - I do, and I often do :)

But even then, you've got the added hassle of making the trip. And
interestingly, amazon.de isn't always great value - it seems to vary more
(with weirdly high prices for some things) than I remember from amazon.co.uk.
(My impression is that maybe amazon has a smaller presence in Germany, leading
them to rely more on 3rd-party, not-fulfilled-by-amazon sellers?)

One positive aspect is that losing my reliance on amazon has led me to
discover a couple of quite good Chinese websites - for many small items, I now
use either banggood.com or gearbest.com

------
Vinnl
There's many parallels to the Netherlands: people sometimes use Amazon.de, we
have our own digital payments system (iDeal), and our own local competitors
(Bol.com the traditional big one, and a more recent new entry Coolblue.nl
which has also gained a significant foothold).

That said, when I recently wanted to order something online to be sent to
Sweden, I was surprised to find that Adlibris indeed only sold books, whereas
Bol.com is really more similar to Amazon: it historically started with just
books, now has a far wider selection, and does next-day and sometimes same-day
delivery.

I guess the lesson is that this "glimpse" of a world without Amazon is really
just a glimpse of one of many possible worlds without Amazon.

~~~
Agentlien
Many online retailers started out very specialised like that, but the big ones
have diversified. I think Adlibris is the odd one out, here.

cdon used to be strictly a website for buying _cd_ s _on_ line. Now they sell
movies, books, computers and even household appliances such as dishwashers and
refrigerators.

Webhallen used to sell only games and PC components. While they still maintain
a primary focus of that, they now also have categories such as "household
appliances", "baby products", "tools and gardening", ...

------
kalleboo
One thing that made this less of a "pain" was that Sweden also has a really
great price comparison site - prisjakt.nu, which actually has a far better UI
for finding and comparing products than Amazon does. The only pain is signing
up for accounts on new vendor sites. When I lived in Sweden shipping was fast,
even from vendors up north. Typically the post was next-day, but vendors would
take a day to pack and send so 2-day was the norm (at the default shipping
cost).

I've found the same thing here in Japan. I do have Amazon Prime, but
kakaku.com is actually a better way to find products, and more often than not
Amazon is not the cheapest vendor.

------
omegaworks
Should we be hoping for the success and spread of a corporation who's
successfully lobbied to keep their workers from being paid for hours they
spend waiting in security checkpoints at exit? [1] Where bathroom breaks and
conversations are counted against you, to the point that workers pee in
bottles to avoid being chastised by managers? [2]

I hope the Swedes manage to keep them out.

1\. [https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/business/supreme-court-
ru...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/business/supreme-court-rules-
against-worker-pay-for-security-screenings.html)

2\. [https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-warehouse-workers-
hav...](https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-warehouse-workers-have-to-pee-
into-bottles-2018-4)

------
phobosdeimos
Amazon was extremely late in Europe. Most European countries didn't have
established players but mine did so they were never able to growth hack. Next
day delivery isn't hard when the country is one big urban area that you can
drive from one end to the other in 3 hours, at night at least.

Honestly I expect more competition from ali express than Amazon at this point.

------
NightlyDev
As a norwegian(who has even less access to Amazon than swedes) I don't care
about Amazon at all.

Komplett is becoming more like Amazon and recently started listing products
from other companies. But as in Sweden it's quite common to use Prisjakt to
figure out what web store has the best price on a given product.

Also, I think UX on the Amazon site is terrible compared to Komplett.

~~~
varjag
Not much books on Komplett :) Amazon to me is still a bookstore.

------
hef19898
That's one thing I never really understood about Amazon in Europe. Why not
simply rolling out a generic, English Website to countries without localized
content?

Sure, things like Prime Music and Prime Video won't work due to licensing
issues. But the traditional retail business? Now with Amazon Logistics taking
over an increasing share of the last mile deliveries in established markets
the legacy carriers like DHL could be leveraged for These markets. Maybe that
will come one day.

Until then this absence of a considerable part of Europe presents a huge
window of opportunity for Amazon-competitors. And even the same-day deliveries
can be provided at least for metropolitan areas using third-party partners
like DHL which have a tremendous amount experience in that field by now.

I assume that this window of opportunity will be closing in the near future,
Amazon is pretty good in still being faster in closing opportunities than the
competition is in exploiting them.

Regarding the geographical issues of Sweden in particular, some remoter parts
of Germany, read islands, have the same issue. But right of the bat, next-day
for the southern part of Sweden including Denmark should be doable. Same-day
for cities like Stockholm largely depends on whether some one is Setting up a
dedicated warehouse for that. And for the remainder of Sweden 2-day delivery
shouldn't be too difficult to achieve.

~~~
AnssiH
Actually, Prime Video and Amazon Music Unlimited are widely available in
Europe:

[https://www.primevideo.com/](https://www.primevideo.com/) (worldwide)

[https://music.video.com/](https://music.video.com/) (several dozen countries,
including Finland, Sweden, Poland, Portugal, Bulgaria)

As for retail, Amazon Germany
([https://www.amazon.de/](https://www.amazon.de/)) offers English language and
free shipping to ~10 European countries, including Sweden and Finland.
Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg get Prime shipping benefits.

The implementation still leaves a lot to be desired, though - e.g. there is a
lot of untranslated content (German reviews, for example).

~~~
squaredpants
Yeah, saying Amazon does not have a .se (or .pt in my case) website is
disingenuous. I can buy stuff from amazon.es easily, and have free shipping on
orders over €20. It will automatically apply the Portuguese VAT as well, so I
usually pay a bit more for stuff sold by Amazon than the initially marked
price obv.

~~~
hef19898
You're both right. The big difference so is wether there is a dedicated
logistics network for a given market in place or not, kind of physical
backbone if you like.

------
tjoff
Not sure what the definition of "next-day" shipping is. Most electronic stores
will send you something so it is in your hand next day if you order before
something like 16:00. If you live in the nearby the warehouse ordering in the
morning (before noon?) and you will likely receive it the same day.

I've always been flabbergasted every time I've been forced to use amazon. It
feels like a site from the 90s, and not in the fast and to the point good way.
But in the messy, why on earth do anyone use this site kind of way. How on
earth do you find stuff on that site anyway.

Amazon has been talking about opening shop here for at least a decade, I think
they've realized that they just won't be able to compete.

~~~
rchaud
I agree, I personally think Amazon's site layout is hideous. I never spend
time on the front page, I go straight to the search bar and then straight to
the pics and reviews section of the product page. The product pages are often
cluttered and ugly as well.

I think the reason the design persists is because Amazon is basically the
granddaddy of ecommerce and like Ebay, their old-school look is part of their
brand identity. Sure, they'll introduce more and more ads as time goes on, but
probably nothing truly dramatic as FB's news feed.

------
Markoff
this is not specific to Sweden but big part if not most if the Europe, even
when amazon came their website still looks like from 90s and almost everything
i checked there cost more than in local shops, so not sure why would anytime
support more expensive american company

it's same with Reddit and other american websites, Americans think sites
popular in US must be popular everywhere, but for instance Reddit it's pretty
much unknown website in Europe and it hardly make it into top 50 or even top
100 sites in most if European countries

google maps are also many times if not almost always worse than OSM by my
experience in Asia and Europe

------
carlospwk
I think a lot of US based techies don’t really know how much better their
local services really are compared to the rest of the world. Finland didn’t
get Netflix until 2012 and the selection is much less than in the US. The
local online auction sites are not that great and nobody here uses Craigslist.
Mailing packages is expensive and Fedex etc are for businesses only. To buy
from Amazon, I have to go on the German site, Google Translate the page and
try to figure out if they will ship here in the first place. Regular order
takes almost 2 weeks to arrive. Amazon won’t ship a Kindle here.

~~~
SahAssar
I think you are underestimating your services, overestimating the US services
or we have a very different experience in sweden vs finland.

I can get next day shipping on most things pretty cheap, and I can buy most
stuff I want to buy that way (including a legally mandated return and warranty
policy). The difference I think is that most European cities do not need same-
day delivery, since they are not built to have the car-heavy suburban sprawl
that US cities have. I'd be surprised if you live in any urban area and don't
have a walking distance to a store with the sort of things that same-day
amazon delivery usually delivers in the US.

And that's before even talking about that same-day is pretty limited in the
US.

------
sjukfan
Personally I use AliExpress more and those times I need a thing tomorrow I use
prisjakt to check what local stores have the items and I'll go there by my
own. The only times I shop from Amazon is when I look for less common books.
If Amazon opened in Sweden it wouldn't really change my online shopping
behaviour.

------
kolderman
Hey, Australian here, we are doing just fine thanks.

~~~
cupofjoakim
I guess you'd be lucky to get a 'next week' delivery from amazon, right? I'm a
swede and I regularly order from amazon.de, and shipping from germany is
usually pretty quick.

~~~
kolderman
In Australia the word for Amazon is "eBay", and you can sometimes even get
next day delivery!

------
wodenokoto
Price Runner is really nice, and I use it every time I'm shopping online, but
recently they started adding foreign sites, as well as prices from pages they
don't link to, making the price comparison pretty useless.

So what if someone, somewhere sells the same thing cheaper? Is it cheaper
after delivery? What about warranty? What about import taxes (the main reason
I'm not buying from the US)?

Their historic price graph is comprised of only the lowest price, which is
often a price that is not accessible, because they gather price from foreign
sites and sites and non-partner sites (which is almost synonymous with
incorrectly price gathering on price runner)

Any good alternatives?

~~~
kenobe
[https://www.prisjakt.nu/](https://www.prisjakt.nu/) is good.

------
estomagordo
USA offers glimpse of a world without Cdon.

~~~
da_murvel
Remember the good old time when cdon only sold cds? And there also was a
webshop called dvdon? I never buy things from cdon anymore, there is something
about "we have all the things" stores that feels kind of off putting. I don't
know, but maybe the illusion(?) of stores selling only one category of
products make it seem like they know more about the products than someone that
sell everything from socks to lawnmowers and cds.

------
chrisper
In Switzerland we don't have Amazon. We have local shops instead, but I miss
Amazon customer service (especially the no questions asked return policy).

So often I order from Amazon and import the product myself.

------
wink
Interesting tidbit: they mention GAFA (Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon), a
term I had never heard.

I knew FAANG (+Netflix) but maybe the scope is different, or Netflix is the
odd one out for whatever reasons...

~~~
mrep
The french wiki on GAFAM is really interesting because it gives an outsiders
perspective on American tech companies and it is pretty biased [0]. (If you
are on chrome, it should offer to auto translate for you and google translate
is ridiculously good these days)

Here is one of my favorite qoutes: "In terms of competition, GAFAM has the
power to buy up all up-and-coming innovative companies and thus prevent
competition from being dethroned (as competition becomes a subsidiary). This
situation is often denounced by the European Union , notably by its
Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager."

It even coined the term NATU for Netflix, Airbnb, Tesla, and Uber.

[0]:
[https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAFAM](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAFAM)

~~~
rav
Thanks for the pointer to the French Wikipedia article. I followed the rabbit
hole and found this interesting article on the Google Maven fiasco, Microsoft
ICE fiasco, and the Amazon Rekognition fiasco:
[http://www.lefigaro.fr/secteur/high-
tech/2018/06/20/32001-20...](http://www.lefigaro.fr/secteur/high-
tech/2018/06/20/32001-20180620ARTFIG00003-dans-la-silicon-valley-les-geants-
du-web-craignent-la-fronde-de-leurs-propres-employes.php)

------
codemusings
So can anyone offer an explanation why that's the case? As a German Amazon
customer since 2003 I've took it always for granted that every european
country has its local Amazon.

~~~
naavis
I guess there's .co.uk, .de and .fr, but are there others?

~~~
AnssiH
.es and .it are the other two full retail sites in Europe.

------
0xfaded
I'm in Denmark. Recently there had been a crack down on VAT dodging on
purchases from outside the eu (read China).

If your package gets picked, there is a ~$20 administrative fee charged ontop
of the 25% VAT. Most people are pretty ok paying VAT, but the implementation
in this case is ridiculous.

~~~
ccakes
PostNord operates Denmark as well I think? They’ve brought in the same thing
here in Sweden, a 75kr “admin fee” effectively for just handling the VAT
processing

~~~
yxhuvud
Postnord was created when the Danish postal service bought the Swedish one.

Unfortunately, the Danish postal service sucks and hence we now have crappy
service.

~~~
moogly
Other way around. The Swedish state owns 60% of the merger whereas the Danish
state owns 40%. Also, the Swedish postal service already sucked even before
the merger, but the Danish postal service was a really dumb deal and a money
hole, so the merger definitely didn't improve things for anyone.

------
robin_reala
amazon.se was until recently owned by a Stockholmer who’d been holding out for
a deal. What it went for I don’t know, but in the last 6 months it’s been
transferred over to Amazon EU. Currently it redirects to a ‘Buying from
Sweden?’ page on amazon.de.

------
jarfil
I'm in Spain, and when some Amazon Prime orders with two-day shipping get
fulfilled from Germany or Italy, I have to wonder whether not having a local
Amazon branch makes that much of a difference.

~~~
calgoo
Im in Barcelona and have same day delivery for a lot of stuff, next day
delivery for a big selections, and 2 days almost anything on amazon. I get
next day deliveries from both the local Amazon warehouse, and sometimes from
the South of France. Amazon have their own delivery people here that deliver
about 60% of products i order with other delivery companies used for orders
coming from out of country.

------
plumeria
I wonder if Amazon will offer local sites elsewhere in Central (Guatemala,
Costa Rica, Panama) and South America (Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Peru) in
the near future?

------
kzrdude
We have two major online book shops and some minor ones.

So we have.. competition! And book prices are not regulated like in Germany
either.

------
hiergiltdiestfu
As far as I know, the Swedish just order from Amazon.co.uk, if they can't get
something from their Webhallen thingie.

------
koonsolo
In Belgium and the Netherlands, bol.com is the biggest one. Question is of
course if they can keep their market share.

------
3K7m7bUZyWA1KCD
In Greece there's skroutz and bestprice, which are price compare and online
store review websites.

------
point78
Pretty easy for a company to rise to the top when you treat employees like one
step above prison labor

