
Norway to test free heroin for drug addicts - smaili
https://www.afp.com/en/news/2266/norway-test-free-heroin-drug-addicts-doc-1897xn1
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mrsteveman1
Excellent idea.

In the U.S. we commonly see waves of "heroin" overdose deaths over the course
of a single weekend. I use quotes because it's usually not diacetylmorphine,
it's a fentanyl analog. While they're both illegal, fentanyl doesn't require
large poppy fields to manufacture, and it can be more easily concealed for
smuggling due to the significantly higher potency by weight and volume.

And the cause of those overdose deaths is typically a new illegally smuggled
batch of it showing up in a specific area that may or may not be diluted
correctly, and even if it is diluted correctly, it may or may not be
significantly more potent than the batch that was being sold the day before.

The "normal" fentanyl that we use to control chronic and postoperative pain,
and for anesthesia, is active and easily felt at the 12.5-25mcg level. Some of
the fentanyl analogs, including some we use in hospitals, are active at less
than 1/100th of that. You simply can't see that or handle it safely, so
illicit "heroin" is dry mixed with other, ideally inert, powders.

This works fine for things like a cake mix, where the whole thing is going to
be further processed with liquids added to it, but for a potentially lethal
drug it's extremely dangerous.

As a result, people accidentally take 50x or more than they thought they were
taking, and first responders like police and EMS are at serious risk of
overdose themselves, simply from touching a surface or a plastic bag that
looks empty.

There is virtually _nothing_ we can do to prevent that unless we move the
demand into a regulated channel like a pharmacy.

A nice side benefit to distributing the drugs for free, as long as it isn't
overly restrictive, is that it can potentially destroy the blackmarket by
eliminating the profit motive as well.

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gopalv
This is such a ridiculous idea that would work very well, because we're
talking about addicts (and ignoring the possible moral hazard - government
giving a drug out).

No intervention is going to motivate a dope-sick zombie to get to a hospital
as much as the promise of being relieved of it - "can I talk you into coming
in for counseling? there's going to be heroin and a nurse with steady hands."

And you entirely cut off the illegal sales market, because the government is
never going to provide this service to a non-addict - there's no price at
which a dealer survives this market and sells to your kid.

An addict should prefer it to the black market, because they don't have to
worry about a fentanyl overdose.

If addicts are being produced out of legal opioids and switching to heroin,
then this catches them before they are entirely beyond help.

All in all, this is excellent fiscally as well, because it prevents money
flowing out in the dark out of the country (instead, legal imports to doctors)
- and possibly, cheaper than ambulances every other week until the inevitable
happens.

~~~
chipperyman573
The only argument that you missed that some people may argue is that their
taxes (Especially in Norway where taxes are very high) are now going to
helping drug addicts get their next hit for free. Some people don't want that
to happen, no matter how much good it does otherwise. The rest of your post is
spot-on, it's just important to consider arguments from every side.

I know there are a lot of good responses to this argument ("you'd be paying
for a jail cell anyway", "it's a net benefit to society", etc), but you have
to remember that there is a _very large_ portion of society that think drug
users are inherently terrible people unworthy of help and won't listen to any
logic beyond that. Although HN is made up of people who are willing to think
through arguments fully and recognize why this program would result in a net-
benefit to society (at least, in theory - it hasn't been tested yet), it's
important to remember that people exist outside the HN bubble. To these
people, the idea of helping someone obtain drugs (especially the _government_
helping someone obtain drugs) is a terrible idea, hard stop.

~~~
maxxxxx
Considering that the alternative is to have your taxes pay for free boarding
in jail buying drugs is actually a bargain.

~~~
hnaccy
What if it reduces the disincentives to becoming a heroin addict?

~~~
maxxxxx
Sending them to jail doesn't work. I think we have learned that during the war
on drugs. Maybe send them to therapy or just let them do their thing? I used
to know a heroin addict who made enough money to afford his heroin and he held
a job successfully. He would sometimes disappear for a few days but I have
seen that with heavy drinkers too. I think most drugs can be managed as well
or badly as alcoholism.

~~~
fpoling
I have a distant relative in Belarus who is a heroin addict for 25 years.
Periodically he is thrown into a jail for stealing stuff. When he is released
his close relatives have to watch for their stuff as he tries to still from
them. But he only still to pay for heroin. If he will be provided free heroin,
he will be harmless and may even do something useful as his mental and
physical health AFAIK is still OK.

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majos
Slightly less eye-catching, but the actual news seems to be

> The Norwegian Directorate for Health and Social Affairs has been tasked with
> proposing an experimental project to identify patients likely to benefit
> from the programme, to examine the implementation method, and to calculate
> the costs...The first treatments under the project will begin in 2020 at the
> earliest, the health ministry said in a statement. The initiative could
> benefit up to 400 drug addicts, according to the daily Aftenposten.

So it is a small-scale, but still radical, experiment that may begin in a few
years. This addresses my first immediate question, which was "why wouldn't
this just attract heroin addicts from around Europe and beyond?".

------
tim333
This was tried in the UK before with generally positive results eg In 1982 in
the Wirral, 400 addicts

>...93 per cent drop in theft and burglary. ‘You could see them transform in
front of your own eyes,’ Lofts told a newspaper, amazed. ‘They came in in
outrageous condition, stealing daily to pay for illegal drugs; and became,
most of them, very amiable, reasonable law-abiding people.’ He said elsewhere:
‘Since the clinics opened, the street heroin dealer has slowly but surely
abandoned the streets of Warrington and Widnes.’
[https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/05/the-case-for-
prescriptio...](https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/05/the-case-for-prescription-
heroin/)

------
emsy
These people already suffer from addiction. Anything the government does to
punish them just furthers their suffering and doesn’t help in any way as far
we can tell. I think it’s time to paint lawmakers that imprison drug addicts
as uninformed at best and immoral and evil at worst. The same goes for other
drugs which could potentially end suffering of people (MDMA, Cannabis) but are
currently dismayed. The war on the war on drugs needs to take up a notch.

------
AdamM12
> "Norway, which has one of the highest deadly drug overdose rates in
> Europe..."

This is the news to me. Anyone know why? My thought is that unlike the US they
aren't use to dealing with this so Narcan isn't as prevalent (this is a throw
it out there guess backed by no research). I would of guessed Eastern
Europe/former communist states (Poland, Bulgaria, Hungary, etc.).

~~~
redisman
It's a pretty interesting statistics. #1 USA, #2 Estonia, #3 Sweden, #4
Norway, #5 Ireland. I don't really know what these countries have in common.

~~~
AdamM12
US wasn't surprising.

~~~
AdamM12
Not sure why I got down voted for a simple statement but ok.

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samueldavid
could something like this work for California?

~~~
AdamM12
I hope they try just so we can hear from Fox News.

~~~
dang
Please don't do this here.

~~~
AdamM12
Sorry. Mere jest.

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jdoliner
Universal basic income is so 2017. Universal basic stash is clearly the way
forward.

~~~
ratacat
Wholly under rated.

------
jdoliner
What happens when people start claiming to be drug addicts so they can sell
the free heroin to real drug addicts?

~~~
lev99
Why wouldn't the real drug addicts go get the free heroin?

~~~
jdoliner
I was assuming there was some limitation on the amount you could get for free
and that some addicts would want more than their allotment.

~~~
lev99
Big assumption. It might be the case, but it might not be.

The first batch of patients start in 2020, with a max size of 400. Let's see
if we can help those people, who are probably chosen more carefully then a
full program would be, before thinking about the issues scaling up will cause.

------
claydavisss
Like needle exchanges, this will be an idea that progressives will eventually
realize is outrageously naive and stupid. Sorry.

Norway will slowly collect addicts just as SF and LA have collected homeless.
They aren't as dumb and helpless as you think, they will gravitate to places
where their situation is condoned and supported.

Norway should expect a minimum of 50k Americans to scrounge together for a
one-way trip...free heroin? That is a fantasy for any addict.

~~~
deathanatos
> _just as SF and LA have collected homeless_

SF conducts a sort of census of their homeless population. One of the
questions asked is where the person lived when they became homeless. _The
majority are from SF_ [1]:

> _Sixty-nine percent (69%) of respondents reported they were living in San
> Francisco at the time they most recently became homeless. Of those, over
> half (55%) had lived in San Francisco for 10 or more years._

The idea that SF "collects" homeless people (from elsewhere) is a myth not
supported by data.

[1]: [http://hsh.sfgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2017-SF-
Poin...](http://hsh.sfgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2017-SF-Point-in-
Time-Count-General-FINAL-6.21.17.pdf)

~~~
doyoulikeworms
31% of homeless in SF came from elsewhere. This evidence may actually go
against your opinion...

What are the numbers like for other cities?

~~~
ratacat
That actually seems a good deal less than the ratio of non homeless folks that
are not from San Francisco (much larger than 31%)

