

How Intellectuals Talk - cwan
http://mattmaroon.com/2010/11/24/how-intellectuals-talk/

======
lhorie
I agree with that sentiment for a lot of topics (especially the more "soup-du-
jour" ones), but I do find that people do still contribute positively to
topics related to the "Silicon Valley hacker" lifestyle, be it entrepreneurial
tips, or just where to get good tea.

To be honest, I don't think I've ever felt that HN was a place to have
intellectual discussions about various topics, as he puts it. I'd imagine that
a community needs to have a certain level of expertise on a topic to have a
meaningful discussion on it, and it seems a bit disingenuous to think that HN
somehow has that level of expertise for everything under the "intellectual"
sun.

For that sort of discussion, I find that commenting on good ol' blogs from
field experts (when they're talking about their fields) is usually more
productive.

~~~
willchang
An 'expert' and an 'intellectual' are different things. As a gathering of
experts on startup and tech-related topics, HN is unmatched; people are very
nice and volunteer lots of information. This is perhaps the upside of "nerdy"
that Matt did not mention in his article. But I agree with him that HN is not
intellectual. When the topic of discussion is beyond the expertise of almost
anyone, the only way to make progress is to apply a certain amount of
intellectualism -- to be tentative, questioning, critical, contemplative,
_nuanced_. For a definition of intellect, I have always relied on Richard
Hofstadter's formula, in _Anti-Intellectualism in American Life_ :

Intellect [...] is the critical, creative, and contemplative side of mind.
Whereas intelligence seeks to grasp, manipulate, re-order, adjust, intellect
examines, ponders, wonders, theorizes, criticizes, imagines. Intelligence will
seize the immediate meaning in a situation and evaluate it. Intellect
evaluates evaluations, and looks for the meanings of situations as a whole.
Intelligence can be praised as a quality in animals; intellect, being a unique
manifestation of human dignity, is both praised and assailed as a quality in
men. (Chapter 2, Section 1)

~~~
lhorie
>> As a gathering of experts on startup and tech-related topics, HN is
unmatched

Agreed. When people say co-founding is like a marriage, I think it's not much
of a stretch to say that start-ups and hacking in general are a way of life.
That's why I worded it as "lifestyle discussions".

One could say that intellectuals are similar to hackers in that both take
interest in nuances of complex things, but imo, hacker culture is more
individualistic ("let me do my thing") whereas intellectualism is more of
conversational ("hey, here's another thing to ponder").

~~~
willchang
Point taken. Hackers are nuanced when it comes to their expertise, so nuance
is not really the difference between hackers and intellectuals. If pressed I'd
say that the hacking trait is biased toward exploiting knowledge, whereas the
intellectual trait is biased toward understanding (or integrating knowledge,
if you will). The ideal hacker is also an intellectual generalist, but really
all you need to be a hacker is some expertise. Outside of that expertise, the
typical hacker either avoids having opinions, or has prefabbed ones -- they
aren't very different than the general population.

------
grandalf
I have noticed that the influx of new users around each YC application
deadline coincides with a slew of less intellectual topics. I have assumed
this is b/c not all founders (or aspiring founders) are particularly
intellectual.

Sometimes intellectual pursuits in a business context lead to excessive yak
shaving. Some of the most capable entrepreneurs I know don't have a stomach
for the kind of intellectual banter that Matt idealizes (and I very much
enjoy).

In the lulls between YC application deadlines, HN shines. Everyone is busy
working on their project and people are more likely to speak from passion,
insight, etc., than out of the competitive, aspirational mindset that they
feel after getting accepted or rejected from YC (or dreading/awaiting one of
the two).

------
prat
An indepth intellectual discussion may be rare offline and its even rarer on
forums. The very nature of message board conversation tends to make you
partisan and cut out the niceties and "I agree but.." and "but what do you
think about.." like phrases. What makes forums different from face2face
conversation is that it makes us assertive rather than perceptive, but as a
side effect, a purpose does get served . that of increasing variety and
diversity of thought rather than depth.

