
Remington Arms Declares Bankruptcy - prostoalex
https://www.wsj.com/articles/remington-arms-declares-bankruptcy-despite-surging-gun-demand-11595903187
======
manfredo
Never owned a Remington myself, but they've not been held in high regard for a
while. Some say it was linked to it's acquisition by Cerberus Capital.
Ultimately, though, it seem alike the company was asking customers to pay
premium prices for average guns. What justifies spending 800 - 1200 dollars on
a Remington 700 as compared to $500 on a Ruger American?

~~~
komali2
Sounds eerily similar to the Harley situation. I had the displeasure of
renting a Harley something - street 500 or something along those lines - just
to see what all the fuss was about. Seems much ado about nothing, why would I
drop 8,000$ on a slab of iron, not even made in the USA anymore, when I could
get twice the bike at half the weight for the same price from Suzuki?

~~~
zrobotics
Speaking as someone who owns a 64 panhead and owned a 72 ironhead (rebuilt
both from parts): Harleys have almost always been inferior bikes that have a
strange sort of charm. Realistically, they occupy the same place as Ural,
outdated bikes that have appeal mostly for style. The last time that Harley
had anything cutting-edge (ignoring Buell) was likely the knucklehead, which
was developed in the 30s.

$8k will buy you a used one (not new), but there is a damn good reason there
are used Harleys with essentially zero miles avaliable everywhere. I have fun
riding my antique crap, but the new ones are such crappy bikes for the money.
A new BMW is the same money, for a more comfortable bike that is less
maintenance cost. However, I used to live on the route to Sturgis for most of
Colorado, Arizona, and western Texas, and I saw probably 80% trailers vs
bikes. People don't buy them to ride them, they buy them to fulfill their
midlife crisis.

To further derail, I would argue Jack Daniel's, Levis, and REI are in the same
boat- they are grossly overpriced compared to superior competitors and mostly
trade on name brand and perception of past quality.

~~~
stickfigure
REI, really? What are the superior competitors? And do you mean specifically
the house-branded gear or the store as a whole?

Genuinely curious, since I still shop there. Prices aren't the best but I like
the selection and the return policy. Plus the salesdroids actually seem
familiar with the gear.

~~~
zrobotics
They sell almost entirely 'outdoor apparel' that is geared at people wanting
to wear the brand. REI used to loon almost like an army-surplus store rather
than a clothing store, and the clothing was fully functional but
unfashionable. Think 100% wool garments, the scratchy stuff that never wore
out and was warmer wet than dry and more equipment than clothing.

My last REI hiking frame was a huge disappointment, it started to have welds
cracking after 40 fairly easy miles. They do still have a decent warranty
policy, but if I'm up in the wilderness that doesn't do me any good, I just
want the same quality as they used to have (I.E. I have inherited gear that is
still good after years of abuse, but have bought gear that has worn out in 3
years).

As far as superior competitors, unfortunately they are hard to find. I've had
the best luck just searching for army-surplus equipment on ebay, as all the
army surplus stores seem to have disappeared. But for apparel, definitely look
for vintage Woolrich or wool milsurp. It's scratchy, but that's what
undergarments are for, and when you accidentally slide down 200' of snow and
get covered it's absolutely the best, none of the more modern gear I've tried
even compares.

~~~
stickfigure
Hmmmm, I wonder if this just isn't changing market preferences.

I also grew up backpacking with external frame packs, PMS boots, and scratchy
wool shirts. My current outfit is nowhere near as durable, but it's 5-10 lbs
lighter. Thinner nylons, smaller zippers, internal frames, synthetic boot
materials, lightweight fabrics, etc... the weight has to come from somewhere.

I still have my old Kelty external frame pack. I haven't used it in 20 years
and I probably never will again. It's just more fun traveling with less
weight. If that means I have to replace gear more often... it's worth it.

------
jonahbenton
Am sure this will be downvoted but just commenting that I find discussion in
these threads fascinating, terrifying, fundamentally foreign.

Having lived in large cities all my life I cannot conceive of owning a gun, or
of other nearby city dwellers owning guns, or even being allowed to in a non
law enforcement capacity. There are apartments in NYC with working fireplaces-
seems almost equally insane to me, though gun more so because of the active
harm it can induce.

Please- no disrepect intended, and not interested in starting argument/debate.
Know all the arguments and the history and not advocating any position. Just
sharing experience, my own lack of slots for this very large component of
american life. Cheers folks.

~~~
saas_sam
For those of us who grew up around guns, your abject horror at an object is as
puzzling as someone being terrified of knives or slingshots. Would be nice if
cops were all good and could teleport to your location in time of need. Drive
an hour outside your city of choice and that ain't gonna happen. Just sharing
my own experience, cheers.

~~~
christiansakai
Why do most developed nations don't let citizens own guns then?

~~~
pluto9
I've never understood the "most developed nations _______" argument. So what?
"Most" parties doing something doesn't make it the right choice. In any other
discussion this would be rightfully called out as an "appeal to the majority"
fallacy.

~~~
christiansakai
I am at loss for words here. These kinds of argument can be made for anything.

Most countries require masks and seatbelts, so what? It doesn't make it the
right choice.

Most countries don't allow to eat dogs, so what? It doesn't make it the right
choice.

Most countries don't allow to kill man, so what? It doesn't make it the right
choice.

I'm just giving a taste of your own medicine.

~~~
pluto9
You're making my point for me. Every single one of those is a stupid argument.

There are plenty of good arguments to be made for all of those things, but
"everyone else does it" is not one of them.

Look, if every other country legalizes murder tomorrow, does that mean we
should, too? No? Then whether everyone else is doing it is clearly irrelevant.

Somebody will probably sic dang on me for saying this, but it is mind boggling
to me that I have to explain this.

~~~
christiansakai
Your argument really sounds like those first year students that just attended
psychology 101 or theology 101, debate 101, philosophy 101 and suddenly felt
"woke" and decided to go "meta" for the discussion and mentioning "majority
fallacy" instead of discussing the issue. Yeah, try that with your professors.

low effort post.

~~~
pluto9
I wouldn't have the opportunity, because none of my professors ever used such
poor reasoning. I'm not surprised to learn that yours do, though.

Also, psychology and theology have nothing to do with any of this, and you
clearly have no idea what "woke" and "meta" mean. You can call my post "low
effort" but at least it isn't a word salad.

I regret wasting my time talking to you. Have a good night.

------
SpicyLemonZest
I wonder about the process here. If they filed for bankruptcy in 2018, and
have to file again today in the middle of the hottest gun market in years...
doesn't that mean they screwed up the first restructuring?

(I guess I don't know how many of the people rushing to the store are actually
buying the kind of expensive guns Remington sells, though. I'd believe a story
where it's few to none.)

~~~
momokoko
This is just financial engineering from a private equity company. They are
simply bleeding out the brand reputation for as long as they can.

Same playbook as every other one.

Buy a brand. Cut costs and ship all work to the cheapest labor market. Count
on brand loyalty and reputation to carry sales as the quality goes down.
Eventually the brand will no longer be worth much due to the lower quality
product, but by then the private equity firm has made solid returns on its
investment. At that point they sell off the last scraps and find another
quality brand with quality products and good jobs to destroy.

~~~
1123581321
Which owner of Remington are you referring to? I’m not sure I follow the
theory that they experienced irrecoverable quality decline at the hands of one
owner, unless you mean DuPont, and that’s hard to measure given the major
changes in the retail rifle and pistol market during that time that were not
favorable to Remington.

~~~
flyingfences
Cerberus Capital / Freedom Group are well-known in the gun community to have
turned Remington into "Rustington".

------
chmod600
What is the larger significance here? Does this mean the gun industry is
struggling? Sounds unlikely given the spike in purchases.

Maybe it's just another old company that once had a good reputation but has
lost its way. PE probably involved.

Or maybe there is some market shift. Like, fewer hunters purchasing lever
actions and more urbanites buying semi-auto pistols.

~~~
paulie_a
Honestly no. If anything the gun industry holds a substantial bit of political
power considering the average American doesn't even own a gun.

Edit:. Touchy subject but it's a fact the average American doesn't own a gun.
The political influence is substantial on the other hand. I'm not anti gun
because it should be an inconsequential topic. It's like vegans had the big
seat at the table.

~~~
ancientworldnow
30% of American adults own a gun and 43% live in a gun household [1] and only
about 40% of Americans bother to vote in presidential elections. Gun owners
are more political than non-owners [2] so it's not unlikely that half of all
voters or more are gun owners or live in gun households. That's a significant
political force.

Vegans, in contrast, make up around 0.4-3% of Americans depending on the poll
[3].

[1] [https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-
own...](https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-
guns.aspx)

[2] [https://today.ku.edu/2018/08/21/gun-owners-are-more-
active-p...](https://today.ku.edu/2018/08/21/gun-owners-are-more-active-
political-participation-study-finds)

[3]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country)

~~~
paulie_a
I was being absurd in my comparison to veganism But 70 percent of Americans do
not own a gun. Am I being obtuse to say a minority of Americans own a gun?

Living in a household is completely irrelevant.

~~~
rayiner
70% of Americans are white but we still care about the minority vote. (Living
in a gun-owning household is not irrelevant. For the reasons people buy
guns—hunting, self-defense, etc., you don’t need everyone to have a gun in
their own name.)

~~~
paulie_a
So was I incorrect in my statementt that a minority of Americans own a gun.

And yes it is irrelevant. I do not control, perhaps do not even know what a
roommate owns and vice versa. And that only pushed the needle up a but, to
still being in the minority. You mention minorities? Gun owners are a minority

~~~
motorcycleman9
You were not incorrect to say they are a minority. Nobody factually disputed
you on this detail. However, other folks added relevant details to show the
prevalence of fun ownership and to give context to the political influence of
gun owners.

~~~
paulie_a
So a minority of a minority when it comes to actual voting power.

Not incorrect? Yes that was directly disputed btw.

Gun ownership and gun influence in the US is vastly overstated.

------
HelloNurse
Most comment seem to agree that Remington stopped making quality guns, with
the obvious effects on profitability. When did this happen? Is it a cause or
an effect of the mentioned private equity funds? Is it an Intel-like bad
period on the product design and R&D front?

~~~
blaser-waffle
Private equity, mostly. That's shorthand for corporate raiders taking over,
cutting QA and other costs, trying to diversify the product lines, and banking
hard on the brand to keep things going. If it worked, great, keep making that
money, and if not then milk the sucker and run -- which is what we're seeing.

Problem is that modern manufacturing has gotten cheaper and more effective,
and offerings from China, Turkey, Japan, and other brands in the US are only
getting better, while Remington stayed the same (or even declined). I think
the trigger thing was more hype than reality, but why risk getting a bad one
when there are so many good choices on the market that are at or below the
Remington price?

------
dsparkman
If a business is purchased by a private equity company, it is not long for
this world. Private equity is all about strip mining a business.

~~~
awillen
This grossly (and incorrectly) oversimplifies an enormous industry with a
number of different approaches. Some PE firms absolutely strip the assets out
of businesses and maximize their short term profits, while others buy and hold
for the long term and others add value to companies they buy then sell them or
take them public.

I hate the whole "PE is evil" attitude from people who don't understand it.
Often there are headlines about how a PE firm has taken a firm over and fired
hundreds or thousands of people, and the connotation is very much that they
are evil and greedy for profit at the expense of people's livelihoods, while
the reality is the business in its current form was going to fail and take
everyone's job with it, and it was necessary to cut jobs in order to save the
business (and thus save the jobs that remain).

I know the industry is an easy target because it's a bunch of rich guys and
some of them are definitely greedy profiteers, but it's just unhelpful to
label the whole industry based on those. If you go by that logic then the
whole tech industry is very much evil because it exploits cheap labor (Uber,
DoorDash, etc.).

~~~
akira2501
> while the reality is the business in its current form was going to fail and
> take everyone's job with it, and it was necessary to cut jobs in order to
> save the business

As a rate, how many business are actually "saved" by PE firms?

> (and thus save the jobs that remain)

Wouldn't that be simpler with a general bankruptcy? What is gained when a
third party, often encumbered with leverage, gets involved?

> but it's just unhelpful to label the whole industry based on those

It's equally unhelpful to expect the minority players in an industry to define
that industry.

> the whole tech industry is very much evil because it exploits cheap labor
> (Uber, DoorDash, etc.).

To engage the hyperbole, the current iteration of it may well be. I expected
flying cars and trips to the moon, not face recognition surveillance, deep
fakes and manipulative social networks.

Realistically... PE on it's own, and tech on it's own may be neutral concepts,
but our current lack of regulation of their specific markets really shows.

~~~
awillen
You're obviously coming in with an anti-PE bent here, so if you're that
interested you can pull up some statistics on PE outcomes and leave them here.
My point was that OP's labeling of PE firms is overgeneralized - if you want
to talk about percentages of outcomes and what type of PE is the minority then
you're welcome to bring that info with you to discuss. I'm not going to do it
for you.

------
purpleidea
From the article:

Gun stores, which have largely stayed open during the Covid-19 pandemic, are
selling to many first-time buyers worried about personal safety over the civil
unrest that followed the killing of George Floyd in police custody and the
ensuing movement to reduce police funding.

------
purpleidea
[https://archive.is/9rEMs](https://archive.is/9rEMs)

------
jmpman
I’m just upset Marlin was sold to Remington. The Model 39A is my favorite
firearm. Once Remington took over, and they moved the factory, the quality
went bad.

------
TedDoesntTalk
Their ammo is good, especially .22 and .22 LR. But I've never known anyone who
owned one of their firearms.... which really just says it all.

~~~
sswaner
Shotguns being the exception, the 870 and other models are popular and
reliable shotguns that many of my gun-owning friends have in their collection,
as do I (two of them).

And, I agree with your comment on the ammo. Have gone through many green and
yellow boxes of Remington ammo. Good stuff.

------
m0zg
You truly need to be shit at running your business to declare bankruptcy at a
time when people are buying so many guns all the gun stores are sold out of
anything decent.

------
hellothree23
Savage 10s haven’t helped Remington much either...

~~~
refurb
Indeed. Savage Arms has been making high quality bolt actions that cost a lot
less (~50% less) than Remington...for a while.

~~~
EdwardDiego
I've had my eye on their 110 Scout for a while.

~~~
brodouevencode
Speaking from experience, for hunting purposes this is a hell of a tool.

------
throwawaysea
Before anyone jumps to conclusions, it seems their trouble began well before
COVID:

> Firearms maker Rem­ing­ton Arms Co. filed for bank­ruptcy pro­tec­tion for
> the sec­ond time since 2018, weighed down by more debt than it can re­pay
> even as fear­ful Amer­i­cans buy more guns than ever.

~~~
redis_mlc
Same thing for Gibson Guitars, bought by KKR in 2013 and BK in 2018.

Gibson Guitars was founded in 1894, but a lot of the guitars they make today
don't work, and are way overpriced also.

KKR renamed them to "Gibson Brands", so I guess some MBA with a PowerPoint
thought related merchandise was more important than, you know, making guitars.

~~~
joe-collins
They... don't work? How exactly does such a straightforward physical item _not
work_?

~~~
rumanator
There are some differences between a Stradivarius and a 30$ violin sold by
Amazon, even though the 30$ violin also makes noise.

------
ralph84
No worries, another PE firm will come along to bail them out by issuing more
debt and of course paying themselves a dividend. Rinse, repeat.

~~~
PeterisP
Well, if the lending institutions want to take on that debt, even if it would
result in it being paid out in dividend and not recoverable in a bankruptcy,
that's probably their right to do so - it's the lender's money to risk as they
want in hopes of profit.

~~~
ralph84
The biggest lending institution in the junk bond market is now the federal
reserve, so traditional notions of risk and profit are out the window.

------
banku_brougham
A law professor, Heidi Feldman, points out that

>With bankruptcy, Remington means to halt the Sandy Hook litigation from
continuing in Connecticut state court.Notable timing, it comes after a series
of decisions by the trial judge refusing to let Remington dodge discovery.

~~~
hajile
No harm done here. That case was stupid on all counts and just an excuse to
try to dredge up some bad PR during investigation.

The mom -- not the shooter -- bought the guns, so the advertising aspect is
dumb in that regard let alone that the reputation of the weapon isn't set by
Remington in any significant way.

Next, Remington sells to dealers. If anyone was "selling" someone on a
Remington, it was the gun dealer (if you're already going to the store, you've
already been sold on the idea of a gun and are just negotiating the details).

There has to be better ways to use a judges time (even better cases involving
guns and gun manufacturers).

~~~
non-entity
Are there any other industries/ cases where the manufacturer is liable for
damage due to misuse by the consumer? It seems something like this is weak to
begin with.

~~~
hajile
People have been filmed running over other people congregating in the street.
Can those other people sue the car manufacturer?

Working as intended, but still sued was quite the bizarre position to be
supported by a judge.

------
crawsome
For the second time since 2018

------
yellowapple
Can't tell from the article (due to the paywall), but any sign that the Navajo
Nation might still buy 'em? I've heard before that they want to (specifically
to address rampant unemployment/poverty among tribal members).

~~~
Animats
No, they decided not to buy, from the full article.

------
chrisjarvis
metapost: this is the first gun related thread I've seen on the front page, I
wish it happened more often. Similarly I always get excited when I see a
gardening related thread, I like reading HN perspective on "non/low-tech"
hobbies.

------
qserasera
Foreign weapons manufactueres declare victory once again. Russia seems to be
in a military boom.

~~~
kevwil
I wouldn't disagree, overall, but it may not be that clear-cut. I heard Sig
Sauer is closing a German factory and the US plant will be exporting US-made
Sigs. Reminds me of the Accord I used to have, made in Ohio. Are these wins
for foreign companies? I tend to think of them as domestic wins with foreign
owners getting a slice off the top.

~~~
qserasera
For Sigs I suppose the market still exists in the US where it wouldn't in
Europe.

------
WC3w6pXxgGd
Surprising, since lockdowns and "protests" have greatly increased the rate of
gun purchasing. In my state, all firearms were out of stock at the local shops
for months.

~~~
Shared404
> "protests"

Pretty sure there are in fact protests. Regardless of your view on them, which
I won't get into because this is HN and not Reddit.

~~~
throwaway-facts
I generally agree with the message of the protests but I feel like what's
going on in Portland isn't being widely covered by the media.

I am a long standing democrat for many years and it is becoming really
difficult to stand behind the message when the activists have no agenda, want
to continue doing this and there is no end in sight.

I absolutely resent federal forces defending the courthouse. If protestors
want to burn it down (there are many videos of them trying to), what do you
do? May be we just allow these people to burn it down if that means it is
going to bring change.

Then there is this: How do you defend protestors who want to overthrow the
United States?

Proof:
[https://twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/128451275993426739...](https://twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1284512759934267392)

Had to create throwaway account just to hide my identity - I am kind of
terrified of everything right now. Both left and right are going insane, truth
is smeared and it is difficult to have a level headed, HN-like conversion
which is what makes this place wonderful.

We need to be extremely vigilant. Please I beg every one of you. I know it is
pretty taboo to even be centrist around here, my plea is to fact check
everything. What I am seeing as a 10 year subscriber to NYT is simply no
coverage of extreme violence and absurdity of demands these protestors are
creating. I have and stand by a lot majority of protestors that are _actually_
peaceful - like the NY City march and SF protests, but Portland is on another
level. I no longer support it.

~~~
ctdonath
We jail arsonists for good reason.

“Burn the courthouse for change” isn’t centrist, it’s delusional.

~~~
Shared404
It's escalation. Not even unreasonable imho.

The protesters were attacked. They did not escalate before this. After being
attacked, their options are to continue being attacked with no recourse, or
counterattack.

I personally have 0 issue with burning the courthouse. As with the previous
violent protests, my issue comes with damage to civilian property.

~~~
ctdonath
The protestors were not attacked. They have a well established process of
“peaceful” used as a shield for provocateurs, as though individuals are not
responsible for the whole mob. The peaceful have recourse to identify and
expel the violent, but don’t.

I have major issues with burning a courthouse - the nexus of polite
functioning society, the recourse of civilian peace. Burn that, and the
recourse for civilian property damage is vigilante violence - don’t go there.

What we see is outright insurrection, from mob to mayor, attempting to break
our lawful government for an admitted imposition of communism. Don’t go there.

~~~
Shared404
> The protesters were not attacked.

All of the protests started peacefully, including Portland. It was police
violence that escalated things in the beginning. I recognize that they were
not attacked _at that site_, but they were definitely attacked.

> They have a well established process of “peaceful” used as a shield for
> provocateurs

If you are breaking laws you will get hit with the laws. I'm not denying that.
No one with their head on straight is calling violent protest peaceful.

In addition, there is evidence for PD's/alt-right inciting violence at
protests to discredit them. I don't know if this is happening at Portland
however.

> I have major issues with burning a courthouse ... the recourse of civilian
> peace.

The whole point of the protests is that this recourse has already failed.

> What we see is outright insurrection ... for an admitted imposition of
> communism.

While individuals may feel that way, I don't and I'm pretty sure most
protesters don't. The fact that some of the leaders have talked about
socialized health care

A) Doesn't mean that's the point of the protests.

B) Isn't communism.

By this logic, Trumps support of the white power movement [1] displays on the
entire Republican party.

[1] [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-tweets-deletes-
protest...](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-tweets-deletes-protest-
video-includes-supporter-yelling/story?id=71501284)

Edit: I'm not looking for confrontation here, I'd really like to get a better
understanding of the situation. Right now, it really does look to me like the
protesters -- not rioters attacking private property -- are in the right.

~~~
ctdonath
The protestors and rioters are largely indistinguishable. The former do not
renounce & expel the latter. The former provide cover for the latter. Legally,
each individual is culpable for the act of the mob, the mob is culpable for
each individual.

If you’re part of a violent siege, you’re part if a violent siege. Retreat or
be targeted.

~~~
non-entity
> The former provide cover for the latter. Legally, each individual is
> culpable for the act of the mob, the mob is culpable for each individual.

Exactly! ACAB :)

~~~
Shared404
No no no. That only applies if you aren't a cop. :)

Sarcasm aside, I do think it varies by PD. My local department had zero issues
when protests went on, even going so far as to take part, and then _not_ turn
right around and start beating people.

Seems kinda like a bare minimum, but at least they hit that.

