
Fiat Chrysler to Modify 100K Vehicles After Accusations of Emissions Cheating - JumpCrisscross
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/business/energy-environment/fiat-chrysler-diesel-emissions.html?em_pos=small&emc=edit_dk_20170519&nl=dealbook&nl_art=7&nlid=65508833&ref=headline&te=1&_r=0
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valuearb
This is not a problem with capitalism.

This is not a problem with regulation.

This is a problem with humans. Some will always try to break the rules, and
take risks, no matter what the system. The best systems are the ones that
recognize this and have ways of self correcting.

In this case if there was a magical device that measured actual pollutants in
every car sold, through out it's life, and could be easily and inexpensively
checked annually so that the owner had to pay a tax on excess pollution (or
even better, a market price for total pollution), the regulation would be
easy.

Automakers could claim whatever they wanted, rig whatever tests they chose,
but it would become very clear in real world usage that they had done so. And
their brands would be murdered if they got a reputation for lying.

~~~
nom
If you have to pass some standardized tests, the engineers will do what
they're supposed to: Meet the goals.

I wouldn't call it 'rigged tests', it's more like they optimize the system
under test to meet the spec. It probably happens everywhere, not only in cars.
The behavior of your fridge, AC or any other hardware is probably optimized in
weird ways just to meet Energy Star etc.

~~~
hwillis
>I wouldn't call it 'rigged tests', it's more like they optimize the system
under test to meet the spec.

You would do so wrongly. In these cases, like VW, the car is programmed
_specifically to detect when it is being tested_ , and lower emissions. They
aren't optimizing to test spec, they are cheating. There's no other word for
it.

~~~
greglindahl
In the auto industry, it's called a "defeat device", and has a long history of
causing woe to car companies who use such devices.

~~~
nom
Since when? And which long history? Seriously, I don't know, where can I read
up on this?

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hwillis
Wikipedia has a list of a bunch of incidents going back to the 70s, in which
the phrase "the largest fine to date" appears often:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device)

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acd
An issue with dieselcars is that they emit small particles PM2.5 particles
which is very damaging to human health.

"A typical diesel car emits around 10 times more nitrogen oxides than an
equivalent gasoline car."

"Fivefacts about diesel the car industry would rathernot tell you"
[https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publicat...](https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/2015_09_Five_facts_about_diesel_FINAL.pdf)

PM 2.5 particles which is small particles emitted by diesel vehicles are a
cause for preterm births in babies. " We estimate 2.7–3.4 million preterm
births may be associated with PM2.5 exposure in 2010 globally."
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412016...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412016305992)

"Health experts lambast ‘deceitful’ carmakers as data suggests 97% of vehicles
fail to meet NOx emissions standards in real-world conditions".
[https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/23/diesel-
cars...](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/23/diesel-cars-
pollution-limits-nox-emissions)

~~~
acchow
Does this also happen in Bluetec engines?

~~~
cptskippy
Yes, BlueTEC is just Mercedes' name for the DEF system that treats the
exhaust. There's nothing special about the engine itself, the exhaust is just
treated.

BlueTEC is just a marketing term like SSRS ( airbag ).

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parshimers
Amazing. If you get caught with so much as a non-stock air filter on your car,
you can get hauled into criminal court (at least in California). If the car
maker actively conspires with ill intent, to cheat the test, all they need to
do is "fix" it and promise not to do it again.

~~~
ams6110
What does California do about rolling coal? I see it a lot in the Midwest.

~~~
bmelton
Regarding California:

[https://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/complaints/smoke.htm](https://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/complaints/smoke.htm)

[https://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/complaints/svc2.htm](https://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/complaints/svc2.htm)

Regarding rolling coal:

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/nothing-wrong-with-
rollin...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/nothing-wrong-with-rolling-
coal-711)

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FTA
So after VW's issue and now this, it makes me wonder--is diesel actually as
attractive as some of these manufacturers had made it out to be? Or was that
all inherent in this big con?

~~~
CydeWeys
I think we're seeing the end days of diesel for passenger cars, at least in
developed nations with strict emissions controls. Hopefully electric will take
over. Unfortunately, no one's quite solved the trucking problem yet.

~~~
dreamcompiler
I hate to say it but I think you're right. I was a big believer in diesel
passenger cars because their mileage is as good as a hybrid, they're cheaper
to produce, and you can operate them more or less carbon-neutral (with
biodiesel).

But that was before we found out everybody was cheating on the emissions.

~~~
CydeWeys
Diesel cars aren't as fuel-efficient as a gasoline hybrid. You're making that
comparison via volume, which is misleading because diesel is significantly
denser (and, thus, burning a similar volume of diesel releases more greenhouse
gases). Do the comparison by mass instead of volume, or simply by CO2 mass
emitted per mile, and you'll see that the hybrid still wins out.

Although, of course, even hybrids aren't good enough in the long run; we need
to stop digging up and burning buried carbon, full stop. Electric cars do
that. Hybrids and efficient diesels do not. Electric cars are a workable final
solution that results in a planet that remains livable; hybrids and diesels
are not. They don't destroy the planet quite as quickly, but the destination
is still the same.

~~~
dreamcompiler
Specific gravity of gasoline is roughly .74 and diesel is roughly .85, so
point taken. Agreed that electric will be the best solution.

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gcb0
That will go as well as their 'voluntary' air bag recall.

Even Mercedes haven't got close to schedule they promised (they are a decade
late), let alone Chrysler's less premium brands.

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kev009
It would be interesting to see real world impact of health and economy of
diesel passenger vehicles in a country like Ireland where most passenger
vehicles are diesel vs the US where very few are.

Commercial vehicles are going to push far more emissions out, with far more
miles/running hours/idle hours and older standards (i.e. you will have a 40
year spread of commercial vehicles on the road).

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dreamcompiler
Slightly OT: I didn't know there were such things as 1500 (1/2 ton) diesel
pickups before I read this article. Interesting.

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csours
Question: Do any emissions regulations (US/EU/etc,etc) set a ratio of lab to
real world emissions?

~~~
greglindahl
No. And the US, until prodded by the academics from WV, apparently never
measured any real-world anything, even for research purposes.

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nameisu
now everyone who thinks their vehicles are made to be crash safe think twice!
they make them only to pass those tests

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megadethz
It it a crime if everyone does it? Capitalism has its problems.

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gozur88
It's a crime if it's a crime, and it has nothing to do with Capitalism.

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awqrre
But if everyone does it and it's a crime, then you might want to reconsider
what a crime is (not saying that you should in this case...)

~~~
gozur88
It's the legislature's place to make that decision. The companies don't get a
pass on breaking the law because everyone's doing it, the same way you and I
don't get a pass.

And I don't think every company is breaking the rules. Letting the scofflaws
off sends exactly the wrong signal to the companies that made sacrifices (in
price or performance) to stay within the law.

