
Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees - otoburb
https://www.theinformation.com/articles/zuckerbergs-anti-china-rhetoric-roils-facebook-employees
======
throwGuardian
Puzzle me this - as an employee in the US, for a company paying well above
market for your labor, with generous perks and the freedom to speak out
against the employer (which is likely absent in China), the response of the
Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodating work
environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech

Or, the press is out to make a mountain of a mole - most Chinese employees at
Facebook are happy despite Zuks' tone against the govt.

~~~
mistersquid
> the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising
> an accommodatung work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because
> of freedom of speech

You’re questioning, and implicitly criticizing, these workers for exercising
their access to free speech, for complaining about an aspect of their
employer’s position about their country of origin.

Such an implicit critique undermines the foundations on which free speech
stands. Speech is free regardless of the benefits and privileges granted to
those who would speak.

~~~
throwGuardian
> Speech is free regardless of the benefits and privileges granted to those
> who would speak.

You're copiously misinterpreting my comment. Of course free speech is an
inherent privilege, nay human right, that doesn't require granting from any
entity/authority figure. I'm very much questioning the logic behind their
angst against Zucks' opinions on China. If anything, the free flow of
information, free speech without retaliation and the general upliftment by
being at FB should convince them to argue FOR free speech in China. I was
hoping they saw the clear correlation between freedoms, free-speech, etc as
the foundation for equitable wealth creation and prosperity, which they very
much have experienced at FB.

I'm guessing their reaction is more visceral/emotional than logical. Most
people tend to love their motherland despite it's shortcomings.

~~~
mistersquid
> You're copiously misinterpreting my comment.

Hm. I don’t think I misread or misinterpreted as much as your sparing comment
leaves many lines to read between.

In any case, I my inference does not match your intended meaning and I
appreciate your clarification.

Free speech should be an inherent right. I also LOVE the idea that such
employees might use this as an opportunity to advocate for free speech in
their hime countries.

I don’t however see such advocacy as a requirement to criticize Zuckerberg.

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davidwitt415
Mirror check on 'intense nationalism' \- how many Americans supported or still
support unlimited US military actions around the globe, not to mention CIA
buggery? How has democratic activity slowed this down in any meaningful way in
the last 20 years?

You are not as immune as you think to government propaganda, it's just easier
to spot when it's another country.

~~~
natechols
I think everyone here is already well aware of this, considering that some
variation on this same comment gets posted repeatedly every time China's human
rights issues are in the news.

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umvi
Title should read:

"Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils (Chinese) Facebook Employees"

At any rate, I applaud Zuckerberg for actually having a spine when it comes to
China, unlike Tim Cook.

~~~
larnmar
It should read “Chinese Government”, not China, too.

The Chinese government was not elected by the Chinese, is not in any sense a
legitimate representative of the Chinese, and has no more right to rule over
China than I do. Conflating criticism of the CCP with criticism of the country
that they illegitimately rule is CCP propaganda techniques 101.

~~~
Cookingboy
What is legitimacy?

A government's job is to serve as many of its people as much as possible for
as long as possible, so playing devil's advocate, why isn't the legitimacy of
a government judged by how good it's doing its job vs. how it came into power?

Historically speaking there have been plenty of prosperous societies that was
ruled by "illegitimate" governments (and I'm not even saying China is one),
and plenty of government that was put into power by the people (actually the
original, populist CCP government is one example) that ended up being
disastrous.

Even if we want to always put democracy on a pedestal, how do we qualify it?
Does only direct democracy count? What about representative democracy? How
"representative" can it be before it's no longer democratic, i,e electoral
college? Do any of those actually matter?

~~~
idoh
Fair point, it is hard to draw an exact line. But once a government starts
throwing peaceful protestors into concentration camps I think we can all agree
that it has crossed the line, right?

~~~
Cookingboy
>But once a government starts throwing peaceful protestors into concentration
camps I think we can all agree that it has crossed the line, right?

Absolutely. But if you are referring to what's happening in HK, debate on
evidence of concentration camp aside, lately many of the protestors have been
anything but "peaceful".

~~~
SAI_Peregrinus
> lately many of the protestors have been anything but "peaceful".

That does tend to happen when peaceful protests get violently suppressed. It's
extremely difficult to not defend yourself against violence.

~~~
Cookingboy
Oh, please tell me how is burning down businesses or smashing public
transportation or vandalize government buildings "defend yourself against
violence".

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christkv
If they are on an H1B that’s a pretty risky move.

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jmpman
My understanding is that I’m not allowed to discriminate based upon the
country of origin of my employees. As long as they have the right to work,
they must be considered equally. Should that be altered for Chinese citizens?

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thecleaner
Wait until Zucky says something against the Indian government - still has a
better human rights record. But Indians will lose their shit.

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emergie
I remember when Mark had Xi Jinping book on his desk. This guy is a joke.

[https://www.smh.com.au/technology/mark-zuckerberg-snapped-
wi...](https://www.smh.com.au/technology/mark-zuckerberg-snapped-with-chinese-
president-xi-jinpings-book-20141209-1233er.html)

------
edwinyzh
This video by Nathan Rich contributes some information about the history
relationship between China and Facebook. relationship:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2srfDwM2sQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2srfDwM2sQ)

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sugarpile
@dang, any chance we can get the url updated to one with the usual
theinformation.com paywall bypass?

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nailer
> complaints of anti-China bias

Zuckerberg is quite clearly being critical of the Chinese Communist Party, who
by nature of being authoritarian, have no mandate from the people of the PRC.
There is no bias against China as a country, or Chinese people. Zuck is merely
judging an authoritarian government for it's own actions. Shame on those who
would wish to conflate the two.

~~~
thorwasdfasdf
In order to understand why this conflation is occurring, you need to
understand chinese culture. Chinese culture is very different in some
fundamental ways that's hard for western countries to understand. First of
all, the people in China are trained from a very early age to think of
themselves as indistinguishable from their country and their government. There
literally is no concept of self in China. People are tauhgt to think of
themselves as completely the same as their government. this is a fundamental
viewpoint of how the chinese see themselves. This of course allows the PRC to
do whatever it wants without any complaints from the people because any
thoughts against the PRC is tantamount to being anti-chinese. Thus when
chinese people see anything that goes against the PRC they take it as a
personal insult to themselves. The PRC has influenced their people to regard
any idea that goes against the PRC as racism towards chinese.

~~~
hangonhn
Come on. That's patently not true. Seriously. I'm born Chinese and my family
is Chinese. We were never "trained". I'm highly critical of the Chinese
government (though I left fairly young) as are some members of my family. Some
of them were born and raised there. Come on. Stop it with the stereotypes.
People are complicated and have multitudes.

"People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their
government."

No seriously no. We aren't robots nor idiots.

"This of course allows the PRC to do whatever it wants without any complaints
from the people because any thoughts against the PRC is tantamount to being
anti-chinese. "

Even at the height of the Mao era there were still dissent even when it could
cost you your life.

"Thus when chinese people see anything that goes against the PRC they take it
as a personal insult to themselves."

It depends though, doesn't it? Are the charges being leveled fair within the
context they're being viewed? Not everything in Western media is completely
fair, reliable, etc. I mean, just read the articles written by the media when
it comes to technology. They miss a lot of the nuances.

Is it really surprising that nationalism has an effect on people? You don't
think Americans do that? Remember that fervent anti-French sentiment in some
parts of the US when they criticized our invasion of Iraq? You don't think the
fetishization of the military in US media is a form of propaganda? What about
singing of the national anthem at NFL games? China does very similar things
but perhaps more frequently. These pro-nationalist sentiments are fanned much
more subtly than you've described it.

~~~
tossAfterUsing
> (though I left fairly young)

how is it reasonable to take your anecdote as a decent reference point for
somebody who has grown up in china, speaking mandarin, and learning about the
world through CCP-funded public schooling?

~~~
hangonhn
Is it any less reasonable than someone claiming the totality of Chinese
culture consists of blind obedience to a political party? He's claiming this
kind of indoctrination starts at a young age. If that's the case I would have
seen some of that. Also, as I've stated, a good chunk of my family are born
and raised in China and some still live there. They're not all of one opinion
when it comes to the government. Is it reasonable to believe 1.3 billion
people are as one dimensional and robotic as the GP makes it sound?

~~~
pertymcpert
It’s an extremely common viewpoint though, from personal experience.

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rolltiide
Culturally, should a suicide of an employee that comes from a culture that
doesn't put weight on suicide really draw more attention to an issue than
before?

Beijing's state policy is freedom from religion and that removes most of the
mental failsafes preventing suicide.

My anti-suicide talk with some Chinese people has often been prefaced with "oh
yeah our culture typically focuses on self preservation and avoidance of
suicide, hope that clears things up for you" before explaining how that
person's failure has other options. I wouldn't consider myself anti-suicide
when it comes to other people's options, I would consider myself to have just
strong self preservation skills and can perceive options for myself and other
people that are considering an escape hatch.

So I think there is a cultural component to consider here, for western media
wanting to cover this.

