
American businesses have the power to change China’s behavior - jger15
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/03/american-businesses-have-power-change-chinas-behavior-time-step-up/
======
dathinab
Honestly it's unlikely. At most they will delay China, maybe make it pretend
for a bit it changed.

China is clearly pursing US Tech independence since a long time. They are not
there yet, but they constantly get closer. If Tech companies in US/EU would
have been more careful with cooperation and IT-espionage maybe then it would
be true. But by now it's pretty much to late. They already have a solid enough
foundation to become US Tech independent. The question is just how long it
will take. And how it currently looks not too long.

~~~
pupdogg
As much as I want to believe your reasoning, I just can’t fathom how Chinese
copycats could actually yield next generation tech...have you had a chance to
search “Chinese structure collapses” on YouTube? I believe there are over a
hundred videos showcasing their ingenuity.

~~~
tanilama
The Chinese can't innovate or create is really just a relic of 90's
racism+orientalism. Seriously, only if you believe somehow the Chinese people
have different brain structure, there is absolutely no reason why they can't
do what West can do.

Yes Chinese wasn't doing super innovative stuff back like 10 years ago.

Reason? Because they don't have to. There is easier money to make at a lower
segment of the market that fits them better. The China back then is under
developed, spending in R&D isn't something that would benefit them than simply
importing last-gen Western technology.

Now they have educated themselves and clambbed up the value chain, that is
when the innovations become profitable to them.

The West still enjoys some advantage, in certain key areas, but it is
diminishing, and diminishing fast.

~~~
jbob2000
It’s not about the Chinese people but about their government. Smart people
don’t want to contribute to the regime and leave the country. _This_ is where
the comment “the Chinese can’t innovate” comes from - it’s about the political
regime being unable to cultivate innovation, not the people lacking the
faculties to do it.

The fact that China, the country, has to steal all their tech, while Chinese
people contribute to innovation all around the world proves my point.

~~~
411111111111111
Not everyone leaves. They got families and friends after all.

And once this becomes too much of an issue, I'd wager they'll just blacklist
anyone leaving from ever coming back. That's gonna make almost everyone stay
where they are.

------
boznz
American Consumers have even more power, look at the human rights records of
the countries you are buying products from rather than just looking at the
lowest sticker price.

~~~
Tiktaalik
Can you even buy a smartphone that's not assembled in China?

~~~
axaxs
Sure. Nokia apparently is making some in India. Samsung does some in S Korea
and some in Vietnam, unless that's changed recently.

~~~
jonny_eh
And how is a consumer supposed to know which models?

~~~
axaxs
Currently, it's not easy. I'm a bit of a phone/tiny computer geek, so I read a
lot. When I was younger, where a product was made was something everyone
wanted to know. China was seen as junk, and rightly so. Now, nobody cares, so
it's rarely advertised.

I'd love for us to hold companies to the standards they hold us to. Say
something unpopular, and you'll get fired, or have advertising pulled away. By
the same companies using sweatshops in countries that abuse people.

Consider this example: Nike pulled it's Redskins gear, because it's possibly
offensive to Native Americans. Yet Nike exploits the system to have that gear
made by women and children, by force or necessity, in countries that are truly
horrible to their people.

------
skybrian
The article doesn't really support the headline. It concedes that we can't
know if it will help and makes more of a yolo argument instead:

> It’s possible, of course, that the Chinese might decide to give up U.S.
> markets rather than liberalize, as they gave up Hong Kong’s usefulness as a
> financial hub. But if we can make a difference, we should find out.

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
> as they gave up Hong Kong’s usefulness as a financial hub

Did they though? Many banks are still based there - but relative to the rest
of the PRC, HK became less important because the rest of the country developed
at lightning pace.

~~~
dan-robertson
It’s unclear. The usefulness of Hong Kong is supposed to stem from it being a
bridge between China and the global financial system (allowing Chinese firms
to raise foreign capital and Chinese citizens to get their money out of
China), and secondarily as a place with stable legal institutions which are
useful to businesses. It seems like the former advantage is being reduced
through HK’s special treatment being reduced, and the latter may or may not go
away for businesses but I think that remains to be seen.

------
bigpumpkin
So rather than competing with the duopoly of AliPay and WeChat, Stripe decided
to not enter the Chinese market because it will change China's behavior-
Somehow letting the profits flow to two Chinese giants will help its society
become more free.

~~~
saltedonion
That’s not the real problem. The real problem is By leaving America is doing
charity work. Another player from another country is just going to fill in the
void. The idea of voluntary exit is as good as we should all be model
citizens.

Indeed an idea as good as communism. It’s beautiful on paper.

------
tengbretson
American businesses _are_ Chinese businesses.

------
Tiktaalik
In the 1980s the West used boycotts and divestment to criticize apartheid
South Africa. It's time the West does the same to China to criticize its
treatment of the Uyghurs.

The problem though as an individual consumer is that electronics products made
in China are so ubiquitous that it's difficult to impossible navigate a
boycott.

Please HNers at big corps, if you are in any sort of position to influence
where your hardware products are made, please push to have your products made
elsewhere.

~~~
wonnage
This is a curious comment in that the West set up apartheid in the first
place. Millions of Africans suffered under it and thousands died in the
struggle to overthrow it. The role that external condemnation from western
countries played, if any, pales in comparison to what actual Africans
sacrificed and accomplished.

Western sanctions generally produce misery and discontent as their main
outcomes. North Korea has been sanctioned for decades and shows no signs of
responding positively. Iraq was sanctioned for decades until the US invaded
and further ruined the lives of everyone there.

~~~
novok
The reason why north korea is still around is because China enables it's
existence, and as a result, that little hell, which wasn't that much different
from china 35 years ago, still persists.

~~~
wonnage
South Korea was similarly ravaged after the war, and was ruled by a series of
various dictators until the 90s. Luckily they were authoritarian capitalists
instead of authoritarian communists, and were propped up by US aid (much
better than Chinese aid, since the Chinese could barely feed themselves).

------
arkis22
The entire point of China pushing HK is that China thinks they don't need HK
anymore.

~~~
dathinab
And that China sees HK to some degree as a symbol of shame.

Else they might just have keep it for some more years because it doesn't hurt
them I thing, well more like guess.

------
creato
> Despite Collison’s example, most CEOs probably won’t take that risk on their
> own; they will be too afraid of being undercut by less scrupulous
> competitors who retain their access to China’s markets and manufacturing
> prowess. So on this Fourth of July, it falls to the American public...

This is the weakness of American individualism. Some form of organization is
necessary to achieve anything meaningful here. This is a job for
regulation/trade policy. Attempting to shame individual companies or "the
public" is at best pointless, and at worst a distraction from a real solution.

There's a pretty funny example here from the tech world: web search, google,
and microsoft. What has been achieved by google abandoning the Chinese search
market? It sure as hell isn't respect for that decision. Far more vitriol
(even at the level of US congress) has been directed at google over this than
microsoft, who operate bing in China!

Don't get me wrong, google deserved the criticism over dragonfly. But where is
the outrage over microsoft operating bing under China's censorship policies?
This is why organization/regulation is required: people are really bad at
maintaining a coherent position even in the absence of market pressures, which
are massive in the case of trade with China.

~~~
systemvoltage
2017 - I remember when Trump had initiated the trade war, it was such a taboo
to support it. I am not a fan of trump but the progressives in the Silicon
Valley would abandon me in a mob mentality god forbid if I said something I
like about Trump. I had pretty unpleasant pushbacks during lunch breaks and
then I stopped discussing things all together.

Living here in the valley, I wonder what’s the difference between aggressively
progressive places and aggressively conservative places like a small town in
Arkansas? To me, they are both intolerant of opposing views, don't think for
themselves and subscribe to extremely strong stances.

Being a centrist, I feel like I am exiled in this country by all sides. The
stronger one's view, the more burden is on them to prove their view with data,
successive chain of logic and reasoning. I am constantly wary of my own views
because either circumstances change, my understanding improves or new data is
available. This is the HN way.

~~~
rdlecler1
As a centrist saying. Irving particularly offensive your post was downvoted. I
feel my days on HN are numbered. One used to be able to have an intellectually
honest discussion. Now step out of line and it’s downvotes. This kind of
monoculture isn’t healthy.

~~~
mythrwy
Just say your thing and make your reasoned points and who cares about
downvotes.

~~~
11thEarlOfMar
Downvotes are a flag for disagreement. I am interested in the reasoned points
of those who disagree with me. Since I was downvoted and no comment was left,
I requested that those who downvoted come forth with their reasoned points.
One or both of us have an opportunity to learn something when that happens.

------
jasonlingx
Let’s take a step back and look at the quote in the article’s opening
paragraph: “As a US business (and tech) community I think we should be
significantly clearer about our horror at, and opposition to, the atrocities
being committed by the Chinese government against its own people.”

Now let’s swap the words “US” and “Chinese” around. Maybe it’s not so absurd
after all.

~~~
philliphaydon
Doesn’t seem to work.

------
tanilama
Abandon money for virtue signaling?

This is a capitalistic world, money will go where it can multiply itself.

US can leave China as they want, will EU follow? How about Japan? My bet will
be that they will be happy to take up the vacuum US left and make a huge
fortune out of it.

Corporate America, if they can act coordinately, they can fix so many things
domestically in this country. Yet, they didn't and probably won't. It make
zero sense that they can achieve that in China.

------
saltedonion
This article is incredibly ignorant, and is more of the same realities
detached day dreaming that the left likes to partake.

Why should American businesses voluntarily abandon an sizable overseas market
and supply chain when China keeps getting access to our home market? In
effect, placing a punitive tariff over our own heads and puts our American
firms at a competitive disadvantage over our European and Chinese
counterparts? Why should such a tax be born by the American corporation,
workers and taxpayers?

If America has decided to decouple from China, then the solution should be
legislative as it creates a level playing field for all firms involved, such
that no one in particular is punished by a voluntary withdraw.

The saving grace is I believe world leaders are aware of this “you withdraw
you loose” dilemma and are starting to cooperate to form a unified front
against China. Donald Trump did well in waking the world up against the
Chinese threat, but I’m afraid we now need a diplomat to finish the war.

------
blackrock
LOL. What a load of lies.

American businesses had the power to change American behavior in the 1800s and
1900s. Did they do it? No.

American businesses could have helped outlawed slavery in America. They could
have forced the issue onto their politicians. Did they do it? No.

Then in the 1900s, American businesses could have outlawed racism. They could
have forced civil rights onto their politicians. Did they do it? No.

And today. American businesses can force the end of police violence against
minorities onto their politicians. Are they doing it? No.

American businesses can ensure fair distribution of wages, and financial
equality, and social equality to help their minority citizens. Are they doing
it? No.

Hence, give me some evidence that American businesses can actually do
something useful at home first, before making them a pawn in this stupid game
of geopolitics that the Washington elites are playing against a nation on the
other side of the world, and forcing the rest of us to choose sides on. When,
they themselves do nothing for us.

My point is, the problems we have in America, has nothing to do with China.
This is all home grown. We have within ourselves, the ability to make life
better, fairer, and more equitable to all Americans. Instead, what does the
politicians do? Nothing. Instead, they do everything to support the rich, and
the elite. While the rest of us gets fleeced, are lied to, and gets
hoodwinked.

The biggest lie that they sold to us, is that Trickle Down Economics will work
for everyone. That tax cuts for the wealthy will help drive business growth.
Trickle Down Economics should instead be renamed to Trickle Up Economics.

The problem is not China. The problem is our corrupt political and financial
system.

~~~
perl4ever
There are places where a "corrupt political and financial system" intersect
with China.

I was kind of startled to find out that Chinese companies listed in the US are
not held to the same standards as those from the US and other countries,[1]
because the Chinese government will not allow auditing in the same way. It
seems this is a genuine issue and not about xenophobia, even if it gets
muddled with it by people who just don't like China. And it is corruption.

Threatening to move listings out of the US, while of course it is an option,
does not seem (or should not be) relevant to the US changing policies which
have been corrupted due to Chinese demands based on "national security". It's
about the US fixing its problems, not China per se.

It's easy for a casual observer to see the Trump administration saying
something and dismiss it, especially as their credibility is so low many news
articles are automatically slanted. However, the SEC and PCAOB have some
credibility to me.

[1][https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-congress-china-
exchan...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-congress-china-
exchanges/u-s-must-have-access-to-u-s-listed-chinese-firms-audit-documents-
lawmakers-say-idUSKCN1T7060)

