
Ask HN: My boss ask I take my emails while on vacation - bouchardm
Hi HN !<p>I recently took on a managerial role &#x2F; project manager (I manage 2 programmers) at my work. Now that the summer holidays are approaching, my boss asks me, that during my holidays, I take my emails or that I be available to be called (~ 3h week).<p>He tells me that this is normal and that it comes with the role of manager.<p>On your side what is the vacancy policy in your company when you are managers ? Have you any advice on how to handle this ?<p>For the context it is a small business of 6 people.
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cjbprime
This is somewhat cultural: it would not be considered unacceptable in many
startups in the US, where I am right now.

But your username and grammar make me wonder whether you're French and in
France, are you? If you are, I think it may actually be an illegal request.
European attitudes towards work are _extremely_ different to US ones, which
are themselves more relaxed than e.g. East Asian.

From [https://newatlas.com/right-to-disconnect-after-hours-work-
em...](https://newatlas.com/right-to-disconnect-after-hours-work-
emails/55879/) :

==

"France, in particular, has been ahead of the world in establishing legal
frameworks protecting a person's right to disconnect. Back in 2001 the idea
was first floated when the French Supreme Court ruled that employees are under
no obligation to bring work home, and as technology progressed the Court
continued to update its ruling. In 2004, for example, it was established that
it was not misconduct if an employee was not reachable on a smartphone outside
of work hours.

The right to disconnect was solidified at the beginning of 2017 with France
introducing the El Khomri law, which suggests every employee contract must
include a negotiation of obligations required of an employee regarding how
connected they are outside of office hours. The law is reasonably vague and
doesn't restrict after-hours work communication, but rather obliges
organizations to negotiate these terms clearly with prospective employees."

~~~
bouchardm
Haha you almost got me, french yes, france no: Québec Canada :)

I will look up the law to be sure !

~~~
ozychhi
In my opinion, law is a bit irrelevant here. You should know what you want to
do, if you don't want to do it then decline and see how it goes; If you feel
like doing it accept it. Do not let those small details alter your
aspirations, in the end all it matters is what you want to do. You are
obviously skilled enough to find another job, so do not be afraid to stand up
for yourself.

~~~
carlescere
I think this is a bit of a narrow view. Even if I probably do what you say and
decline it myself, personal circumstances will vary. I think law here is
relevant since it is the minimum that the company will have to uphold and your
case to decline will be stronger. You are right in that each person should
think about what they want, but they should also balance it with their
circumstances.

------
bobflorian
This is completely unacceptable. I work for a small company of 9, with 3
programmers (me being one). On vacation we all unplug to the fullest extent.
It's all about setting expectations, having redundancy and backups. In fact,
the boss hired me so that he could do exactly this, unplug and leave the
country to have a solid vacation. I tend to either unplug all the way, or make
it impossible to contact me by either being somewhere remote. I haven't come
back to a burning fire yet.

~~~
mcv
For every position in the company, there needs to be someone who can fill in
if the need arises. You already need that anyway in case someone has a serious
accident or something, so you might as well make use of that when people go on
vacation.

~~~
e40
With 3 programmers, I seriously doubt there is a backup for every function.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
Then they either need to tolerate less than 100% availability for those
functions or hire more people.

~~~
e40
For a company of the size we are talking about, it would definitely by the
former. Even at 20 people, it's not possible (financially) to have backups for
every function and we have to tolerate downtime for people.

------
setr
From the corporate perspective, the problem is that work should not, and
cannot, shutdown, because you've gone on vacation. In a company of sufficient
resource, you would normally be able to offload the management onto someone
else for the duration (eg your #2, or a peer)

But this is not your case -- you have only 6 people -- there's no one to
offload onto. The size of your group is such that everyone is presumably
_vital_ to the operation, and cannot be removed without surgical intervention.

So you're in the state of having to do one of two things:

1\. Solve the problem for the company, and somehow institute policies, tasks
and responsibilities to allow your resources to survive on their own for some
time (you need to eventually do this anyways so you can work on higher level
things)

2\. Work minimum hours during vacation to make sure nothing blows up

3\. Work no hours during vacation, and if it blows up, it blows up (and accept
the backlash for it)

The key thing is that having such responsibilities means that you can't leave
things in a broken state -- if that means you have to work extra hours to keep
things working, so be it.

~~~
ljm
The only reasonable option there is the third one, and the company itself
suffers the backlash for running on such a high bus factor.

Vacation is for vacation, not work. If you're asked to stay on call then you
better be paid for it. After all, you're not one of the founders, you're an
employee.

If a business can't survive with a week or two of planning or delegation then
it has other problems. Eating vacation is just a cop out.

~~~
setr
However, you're not a low-level resource; especially in a 6-man company. Being
given responsibility for your team, you are responsible for it -- good or bad.
It's your duty to ensure your team is capable of limited autonomy (if they
were believed to be capable of full autonomy, your role as manager is
redundant, and the hierarchy shouldn't have been created in the first place)

If you haven't yet created the necessary environment that you can just step
out for some time, then working beyond working-hours is the inevitable result.

If you've noted and escalated the problem -- that this environment cannot be
setup without whatever additional resources/support -- then that's your safety
net against any backlash. (It's now your bosses fault if he's aware and does
nothing). But if you haven't... the onus remains on you

~~~
mikeg8
Again, you continue to describe the role of a FOUNDER, not an employee.

Your use of words like “blow up” and “duty” need some serious reflection. One
of the biggest failures of or modern corporate culture is the mindset that we
should live to work instead of work to live. A vacation requires disconnect to
be truly valuable, if your brain is still in work mode, you may as well have
stayed in the office.

~~~
setr
I'm describing the role of a manager, versus a contractor/leaf-resource.

A vacation is valuable, I agree, but your position within a company is a
reflection of our position within it's operation -- the higher you are within
it, the more people you screw over when you say "it's 5pm goodbye" and don't
have things setup to handle it. Your power, and pay, is a reflection of that:
you have less and less leeway, as you have greater impact, to screw around.

It would be a very poorly run company that allows everything to shutdown
because a VP (key: not founder) went on vacation -- the same is true of a
department head, and his department, and a team lead, and his team. But it's
also the CEO's job to make sure he picks VP's who ensure this not the case
within his domain, and the VP must pick the department heads, and the
department heads their team leads -- if you are willing to allow, or unable to
prevent, such scenarios to bust forth, you really shouldn't be managing that
particular domain.

The more important you are, the less freedom you have, because the greater the
impact your choices will have.

And to be clear I'm not using duty as an implication of loyalty or whatever --
I mean that a manager, or manager of manager's job really boils down to one
thing:

Ensure productivity within your domain

Not letting your team implode in two weeks of your absence is part of that

~~~
guitarbill
> the higher you are within it, the more people you screw over when you say
> "it's 5pm goodbye" and don't have things setup to handle it

disagree. in fact you should be doing this, especially if you're in a higher
position in whatever hierarchy. because you then have more power to dictate
culture, and properly set boundaries.

all these arguments have been mentioned before. it can be seen as a mini-
drill/game day to see how the business copes when you're gone (for whatever
reason). if you've set up/helped set up a robust business, nothing bad will
happen. if not, you've already failed the business. i guess that requires
trusting your employees though.

being liable to burn out is also a risk to the business, not an asset. if you
are a knowledge worker, not unplugging and coming back refreshed is also a
risk to the business, not an asset.

~~~
setr
My key requirement is that _you need to have things (processes, roles &
responsibilities) setup to handle it_.

I'm not arguing whether its good, or bad, to setup such a culture -- go ahead,
I won't stop you; hell, I'll enjoy it. But things need to be setup to actually
survive that model.

If things are _not_ setup properly, and you try to enforce your hardline
stance _anyways_ , regardless of how it impacts your domain, then you are
operating as very poor manager. You can't just randomly drop the ball like
that -- if you want a strict 8-5 working culture, or a 100%-offline vacation
culture, you need to do the preparation for it.

And if it _can 't_ be done, because of whatever local constraints, then it
would be absurd to go forward with it anyways; then your goal should be to
find some reasonable alignment with those constraints. The same way that a
programmer can't simply decide that functional programming is THE ONE TRUE
GOD, and inject haskell into everything when no one else knows it, and then
rewrite everything, when no one else can participate.

You can't just go ahead with it randomly, and say it's not your responsibility
(it's your domain: it is your responsibility), and really, its the FOUNDER's
fault for allowing this situation to occur, I'm actually not involved anywhere
in this -- because then the FOUNDER should, and hopefully will, execute
according to his responsibility: replace you with someone who does realize
he's responsible for his domain, and set things up to run
efficiently/effectively within the culture he chooses to instantiate.

That is, from the corporate perspective, the culture really doesn't matter --
as long as it works. The criticized culture is simply the common, default,
good-enough solution that works just about everywhere (and features the IBM
property: no one gets fired for buying into it); another culture is fine, as
long as you do the prep work for it.

But if you don't, and try to enforce it without preparing for the consequences
(both to extract the good and mitigate the bad), then it's entirely your own
failure.

------
brandon272
Two things:

1) If there is a legitimate concern that some crisis will arise and be heavily
exacerbated by you not being at work during vacation, that is an operational
problem in the organization that needs to be dealt with. Who is your backup?
What would happen if you suffered a medical emergency and were not in the
office for a month? How would they deal with that?

2) It sounds like your expectations and values do not align with your
manager's expectations and values. This is something that you should resolve
with your manager or consider finding work elsewhere.

The intent of vacation is for you to recharge mentally and emotionally. A
vacation where you are still plugged in, still on call, still expected to
work, is not much of a vacation.

------
sloaken
I would track how much time you spent doing it, and deduct it from your
vacation hours. Instead of charging 40 hours, I would charge 37 to vacation.

That said I check my email on vacation, typically redirect it to someone to
address. I would say I spend 10 to 20 mins a day doing this while eating
breakfast or in the library (if you know what I mean).

~~~
jameshush
I agree this is how it SHOULD work, but it really depends on the company
culture. Ideally you set up systems in advance where they don’t have to reach
you.

------
SamWhited
With the disclaimer that I am not a manager: this is somewhat normal at
smaller companies I've been at, but it is still completely unreasonable to ask
you to check emails while on vacation, even at a 6 person company. I have
always taken a hard line on this as a non-manager, and so should you. If they
give you actual vacation hours that they have to pay out instead of nonsense
like the "unlimited vacation" policies a lot of companies have (meaning they
don't have to pay out and can rely on most employees feeling pressured to come
back quicker), you have the choice of accepting their terms but only if you
deduct the time from your vacation hours taken (although trust me, for your
own mental health, take the time and don't think about work at all).

~~~
nepthar
Re: "nonsense like "unlimited vacation" \- I've worked at a few companies with
unlimited vacation and felt no such pressure. I not only took more vacation
than the typical American two weeks, but it gave me flexibility to take
advantage of things like last minute ski/camping trips. This really allowed me
to put my life first and be a relaxed productive member of the company.

I gather that some folks do feel this kind of pressure, but maybe the answer
is to help them overcome that feeling, rather than call the policy nonsense.

~~~
SamWhited
Lucky you. It's not just a feeling though (although there is that). My bosses
have basically all constantly asked me when I was coming back if I tried to
take more than a few days, and with no chance to earn vacation time there was
no chance of it being paid out when I left.

------
munchbunny
That's normal, sort of. For context: I've worked in a 6 person startup as a
founder, a 60 person startup as management, and right now a tech giant as a
peon. My policy for myself and anyone under me has been the same in all three
cases, and it's been consistent with my colleagues in all three cases.
(Exception: there are 100%, definitely, guaranteed, examples of unreasonable
managers at the tech giant I work for, I'm just not personally aware of them.)

1\. In general, talk to and designate someone to cover for you for the
responsibilities that have to continue while you're on vacation. If that's not
possible, see #2.

2\. In general, don't answer emails. Activate your out-of-office auto-response
feature. Set a protocol with your colleagues for how to flag urgent issues in
email, such as an [Urgent] tag, and mention it in your out-of-office auto-
response. If you're not going off the grid, then once a day check for urgent
emails and respond to those. Ignore the rest. If you're going off the grid,
make sure everyone knows you're off the grid (mention it in your out-of-office
auto-response).

3\. If you anticipate potential emergencies where you have to be involved,
then set a protocol for how to contact you quickly in case of emergency, and
bring your work with you just in case everything catches on fire. I always
used "email me, call me on my Google Voice number, leave a message if I don't
pick up, text me, and message me in company chat, in that order."

The key point is that sometimes it's urgent and the bus number is 1, and
you're that one person, and in those cases it makes sense to ask that you be
reachable. In all other cases your vacation should be respected and you should
be left alone.

~~~
jameshush
This is all great advice. My company uses slack instead of email, what’s
helped me is silencing slack but telling people they can call me if there’s a
fire. Before then I set up all the systems I can to prevent anything from
slipping through, so I haven’t been called on vacation yet.

It’s all about setting expectations and delegating responsibility in advance.

~~~
foogazi
Having a backup plan helps.

Also making full use of the available tools:

\- calendar OOO messages

\- automated email replies

\- slack status messages showing OOO dates

~~~
jameshush
Yup! All these are very simple things you can do. People forget to do the
simple things because they think work is more complicated then it is.

------
mjayhn
Didn't you tell me recently that you started to get really into backwoods
camping? It's unfortunate that signal is so bad in the woods, eh?

~~~
em-bee
not to mention the lack of electricity, and the weight limit on my backpack.
and the kids needing constant attention. we'll also be kayaking from place to
place, through some wild streams. the only electronics i'll be able to take is
my waterproof camera.

------
CretinDesAlpes
If you have to work during your holidays then they shouldn't be called
holidays.

~~~
bouchardm
That's my feeling

------
GiorgioG
Vacation isn't vacation if you're doing work. Take a hard line. Make sure the
same happens for the people you're managing as well.

------
ozychhi
I'm always available for call whenever physically possible, mind you I work in
finance. Depends what kind of ownership of the project you take, but you
should NOT be forced into it; That should have been discussed when you took on
the managerial role, as obviously you didn't have full understanding of
responsibilities. Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with that
request (again it should be request not forced), but bigger problem is that
you might have other hidden responsibilities and that is a bit of a red flag.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
When someone with power over you makes a request, you can never be sure it's
not forced, regardless of how they word it.

This is one reason that most organizations disallow romantic relationships
between a superior and a subordinate.

------
bogomipz
If you are expected to reply to email then you are not truly having a
vacation. The only "3 hours" thing is disingenuous because if you are required
to look at work email then inevitably you will wind up thinking about work.
That is not a real vacation. Giving up the ability to truly enjoy your
vacation is not some default that is accepted when taking on a management
role. I don't think its normal, maybe it's normal for him but that doesn't
mean it should become your normal. Tell them unequivocally "no" and explain
why. It's important to set proper boundaries early or this can become the
beginning of these types of encroachments on your work-life balance.

------
NDizzle
Putting up with that kind of nonsense in 6 person company isn't worth your
while.

------
alexwebb2
Just be clear between you and your boss what the expectation is.

If the expectation is that you'll check your email at least once a day at a
set time and do maybe 15 minutes of work tops, then yeah, that absolutely goes
with the territory of small company management. Pick a time and put it on your
calendar for each day you're away, "Respond to emails", 15 minutes long.

If it's more than that, and the expectation is that you'll be available on
short notice to resolve anything that comes up, then you're effectively on
call and should use that language explicitly.

What would be unreasonable would be for you to effectively be on call for 8
hours a day during your vacation and to still be deducted the normal PTO rate.

~~~
blaser-waffle
I would frame it that way as well.

Be clear on what "respond to emails" means -- no more an 30 minutes of typing
out answers to emails, or does that mean following up on their requested
tasks, tweaks, code fixes, etc?

If you're not doing work but are responding to emails I'd keep a To-Do list so
stuff that doesn't fall through the cracks, post vacay.

------
dumbfoundded
Your boss in the wrong for asking you. At the same time, you will probably be
viewed negatively for not doing it. Your call.

~~~
quirkot
A potential reply to avoid coming across poorly could be something like: "what
time code or project number should I report my time under when I stop my
vacation and go on-call?"

~~~
bouchardm
I find this is a great response, unfortunately we are a SASS, only one project
number :/

------
curryst
I'm not a manager, but my managers are typically available by phone for "oh
shit" situations. I say typically in the sense that they keep their phone
around, and will answer if it goes off, but don't make a promise that they
will have cell service, etc.

That is with the explicit warning that it is only to be used in situations
where the site is down and we've called everyone else.

Whether they answer email is hit or miss. The ones that do I think are just
workaholics.

My take is that I don't generally mind, because typically the reason I'm
getting called is that I dropped the ball on something. I've been called twice
out of work hours when I wasn't on call. Once because I developed a system and
did a shitty job training other people on it, so when something broke that
wasn't a simple fix, I got called. The other time was because the solo dev for
the product was on vacation, his replacement on call didn't know much about
the system, and I had worked with it the most other than the main dev. I
should have documented how I worked with the system and fixed it in the past,
but I didn't, because documentation always ends up as the last thing I want to
do. The org likes documentation and would have given me time to do it, I just
didn't want to. So I reaped what I sowed there.

------
mytailorisrich
You say that you manage 2 devs in a 6 people business: You and your team are
half the whole company so I'm thinking that you are critical.

Based on that I think it is not crazy to ask you to touch base a couples of
times a week while on holiday.

Very small businesses often have big problems operating when even one person
is missing because there is no slack in the system: Everyone has an important
role and has to be on deck.

Hopefully, there is a big upside for you that compensates for this.

In a large company it's possible that no-one will even notice that you went on
holdays...

------
undecisive
_Is this normal?_ Sadly, yes.

 _Is this legal?_ Maybe. Probably. IANAL but as far as I'm aware, there is
nothing wrong with the request itself. That said, if he fires you based on
inaction during holdiay periods, there may well be legal recourse depending on
your country etc. But get legal advice before you go down that route.

 _Is this acceptable?_ Maybe. As manager, it's up to you (and in your best
interests) to maintain control of the situation. In your "I'm off, have a good
couple of weeks" message, set limits on what kinds of communications you
expect to deal with while on holiday. Remind everyone that they too are
expected to enjoy the freedom of their time off, and if you expect them to be
unacceptable about it then be clear that anyone found abusing your free time
will be ignored or worse.

Ensure that, where possible and appropriate, you nominate deputies with the
experience and good sense to deal with the kinds of issues that are likely to
come up.

Also, check what they expect from your 3 hours a week. If it's 3 hours
reporting on the activities of the team, kindly inform them that the answers
will be a couple of weeks old, or that you will refer to members of your team
for that information.

Remember also that it is your responsibility to help set the tone and
atmosphere for the company. How you deal with this determines how others will
deal with similar situations. So sure, be accommodating up to a point, but
remind those around you that team morale pivots on valuing each other and
protecting each other.

------
kellenmurphy
Especially in the context of a small business of just 6 folks... yes, I think
keeping tabs on your email is understandable.

There are 10 people that work for my company... half of them engineers like
myself. It's expected that we aren't completely disconnected on vacation...
but at least available if a true emergency crops up that needs our niche
expertise.

That said, my boss is awesome and encourages healthy work-life separation, so
stuff has to really escalate before you're expected to jump in...

------
empira
I can tell you that on my side, it is expected that you are completely
unreachable when you are not supposed to be working. That applies during your
holidays, when you are sick (you still need to open the door to the work's
doctor if he comes visit you) or before/after work hours and during the week-
end. Not only your boss or collegues wouldn't try to contact you (or would not
expect a response), but they would not even try, as it could lead to you
(rightfully) complaining to HR.

The reality as always is more complexe. It is true that some role come with an
(implied) expectation of general availibility. While it would be your right to
decline any work-related phone call, I'm sure it could one way or another
impact your relation with your boss, especially if 'it comes with the role'. I
guess it all depends on what you want. If you don't want to be answering work
calls during your holidays, you can always fake being unreachable. It's not
unreasonnable to not have your phone with you at every moment. Or, if you
don't mind being reachable, maybe arrange for a predefined time slot (from 9
am to 9.30 am every day) when they can call you, so that you don't have to
worry about it all day.

------
mharroun
I see it this way:

As a manager you are responsible for your department those responsibilities
dont magically poof away because your on vacation. If you have successfully
set up your team/department in a way that you can "go dark" for your time off
(e.g. no need of your knowledge, and proper key teammates can step in for you
to interface with other teams/departments) then great, otherwise you should
expect backlash if something goes wrong.

------
GrinningFool
Because it's a small company[1], I'd suggest as a compromise that you provide
a way for them to reach you in emergencies, but otherwise do not check in.

That way someone has to make the choice to disturb you when it's truly
necessary, as compared to preemptively laying claim to some vaguely-defined
portion of your vacation time.

[1] For a larger company, my answer would be no - your vacation time is your
time, and not the company's.

------
oftenwrong
At the last 3 companies (all small startups) I have worked for, this would
have been considered unreasonable. When a person is away, we would not attempt
to contact them unless it is a true emergency, and there would be no
expectation that they should check their messages. You should be able to
delegate your responsibilities to one of your colleagues.

------
NicoJuicy
Depends on the situation, I would play the wait and see card.

Go ahead and ask them to call.

Don't be afraid to say when the can check it ( eg. 3 hours later).

And check what the request is. If it's a bullshit interruption, than say you
don't appreciated it for this.

If it's a good question, don't worry. You will understand why they did it.

In my case: totally fine, bit I never got an interruption for bullshit :)

------
Communitivity
I went through a period of my life over several years where I did this. I was
pretty much on, checking emails and responding whenever I was awake. I found
it to be a horrible life balance when I finally stopped, realized my health
had deteriorated and I had missed key moments of my daughters early life.

If the company will truly fall apart when you become unavailable, then you are
doing it wrong. Hire people you can trust, train them, maintain well-defined
processes in some Body of Knowledge repository. Then let people know who to
contact for what. Give clear and accurate criteria for the emergencies when
you should be called/texted. Then be present always, whether it is work or
vacation. You'll find your happiness increases, your job output increases, and
the people you work with will grow and be happier for it.

------
somerandomqaguy
Not unusual but a little interesting that your boss is explicitly asking that
you be available during holiday. And I don't think it's unreasonable for them
to ask.

If I were you, I would see if you can work something out with your boss that's
agreeable to both of you. Maybe it's fine just to glance at the emails for 5
or 10 minutes in the whenever time window is convenient, with no expectation
of action until you actually are back to work. If that's no good enough (i.e.
they want you explicitly looking at your emails for a set window) then try to
see if there's some other form of acceptable recompense in exchange for you to
be working on holiday, for example extra pay to compensate for the fact that
your giving up some vacation time to do work.

------
devy
For a startup with only 6 people and you are one of the managers/leaders of
managing others, there could be exceptions the team needs your decision while
you are out on vacation.

This depends on the work culture at your company and in the country you are in
as the labor law and norms varies. My own experience has been that it's
entirely possible (imaging your 2 direct reports are roadblocked waiting for
you to make a decision) and your role is so crucial that your boss depends on
your to make an informed decision, your attendance on email responses could be
important. Obviously, if it's a short vacation and everything is planned out
and prepared for, your response on emails would probably not needed.

Again, I don't think there is a common scene here you can find on HN.

------
bcrosby95
I work at a small company too. When I go on vacation, one of the owners steps
in for me as much as he can. If there's a true emergency he can't deal with,
he will call me.

I never check my email on vacation. I also try as much as I can to do the same
for them so they can go on vacation.

------
bluedevil2k
If the company is only 6 people I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to
check email. Small companies need to project as bigger than they are to
potential clients and answering your emails helps that illusion. Just take 20
minutes and do it after lunch.

~~~
enumjorge
It is unreasonable. It’s just been normalized in certain settings. I’ve been
in teams like that, and having to check in while on vacation makes it hard to
take your mind off of work. Its one thing if my manager asks for my cell phone
in case there’s a true emergency. But having me check my email every weekday?
No. Boundaries are healthy.

I’m never again working in an environment like that if I can help it unless
the company _really_ makes it worth it, and let’s be frank most small
companies can’t afford to do that.

~~~
GreenJelloShot
People "vacation" in radically different ways.

For some people, a vacation is just spending all week at home playing video
games. Others will just sped time at a B&B or visit family. For them, checking
email is not a big deal.

Other people are way more active and want to go camping, surfing or something
else that gets them away from their phone/laptop. For these people, checking
email is unreasonable because it interferes with their plans.

The two types of people cannot understand the other side. One of them thinks
"Why can't you spare a little time in between checking Facebook and Twitter to
check your email?" The other side thinks "Who wastes a perfectly good vacation
by spending any time on Facebook and/or Twitter?"

------
regularfry
I'd come at this from the point of view that no, holiday means no contact.

It is _not_ "normal" for managers to be available to be called while they're
on holiday. When I've been in management roles the rules have been the same as
non-management rules. Holiday is holiday: you're not there.

What that means is, if your manager needs support while you're away, you and
he need to have a discussion about what cover looks like such that you
personally don't need to be there. What can you delegate up or down? Is there
a peer you can hand some responsibilities off to temporarily?

If he's not willing to have that discussion at all, that's a real problem, but
I'd approach it as a problem to be mutually solved.

------
ceothrowaway
There is both opportunity and threat hidden here.

Threat - if the program/project genuinely requires that the manager needs to
on emails regularly and if you don't give what it takes to a manager of those
programs/projects, they might replace you with someone who does.

Opportunity - if you check your emails in vacation and take proper action,
then you will gain trust from management and they don't even bother whether
you are in office or in vacation. they might even give more responsibilities.

Because business never goes on vacation, you cannot tell customers that key
person is in vacation. You can find someone to act as a manager when you are
on vacation. But _that_ person might replace you, if you are not very careful.

~~~
contravariant
Both of those seem to imply that checking your email is the right thing to do.
So just for balance let's consider the following as well:

Threat - Checking your emails means agreeing that it is normal and to be
expected, this will be hard to undo.

Opportunity - Not checking email for a few days will force both yourself and
the team to be more independent, and will identify obstacles to further
independence.

------
georgeecollins
Here is my suggestion, given the size of the company and your role. Ask your
boss to try and answer your work emails while you are on vacation, or send a
reply saying you will get back to it when you are done with vacation. If he
encounters something he isn't sure about, he can email you. That way you will
only be bothered about things that really require your attention.

Offer to do the same thing for him when he is on vacation. This is a better
strategy for co-workers, but since you are a small company you can see what
your boss says. At the size you are at it is important that you offer to
reciprocate what you are asking for, to show that you want to be treated
fairly and appropriately.

------
smcphile
> For the context it is a small business of 6 people.

I think the size of the company explains why you were asked to take emails
while on vacation. In a bigger organization, with more redundancy, handling
vacations would be less of a problem.

I’ve never been told take emails while on vacation, but I’ve volunteered to do
so when there was nobody available with the skills and/or specific knowledge
to replace me.

Since you’re asking for advice, I’d advise you to accept taking emails and
just try to ensure it doesn’t take you to much time. Avoid doing too much hand
holding in your messages and just answer the critical stuff. Before you leave,
explain to the two programmers what they can decide on their own and what they
can’t.

------
londons_explore
I have always applied the unofficial policy that if an employer needs me in an
'emergency' (ie. to do something at short notice when I wouldn't otherwise be
working for them), then I will do it, but will round up the time rather
generously and take that amount of extra time off elsewhere.

For example, boss calls interrupting my sunbathing session needing advice on
how to fix something. Call is 14 minutes. I'm going to either bill that as an
hour, or take another hour off sometime.

Doesn't apply if its because I've done my job badly (ie. didn't properly
document some procedure, so now someone else needs help following it).

------
lukey_q
Totally unacceptable ask in my opinion, for reasons many people have touched
on. I would also add that even from the company's point of view, it's a bad
deal to ask you to work. The peace of mind you get from taking an unplugged
vacation, and also from knowing that your company wants you to fully enjoy
that vacation, is going to make you happier and more productive when you
return to work. It's going to make you trust your company and think that they
have your back as a human being. In the end this is going to be worth
infinitely more than the two or three emails you would be expected to answer
that week.

------
dankoss
One way to think about this is traveling to places where connectivity is
literally unavailable -- national parks, mountains, etc. Your boss cannot
prevent you from traveling to those locations, so even if you aren't somewhere
where you are unreachable, why should you be expected to be available?

Most of my bosses have left their contact information for when they are away
from the office, but I've never had reason to use it. I would feel bad
interrupting someone's time off except in cases of true emergencies, which
might happen more often in other company cultures or industries.

------
scooble
Assuming that this is not already covered by your contract, and that you are
not going to flatly refuse, it may be worth thinking about possible areas of
negotiation.

For example, if you have to be available for 3h per week, you might suggest
retaining 1 vacation day of that week. Similarly, you could suggest that you
retain the vacation day if you end up working more than one hour on any given
day of your vacation.

As well as ensuring you aren't giving away your vacation time for free, this
also sets boundaries. The risk here is that your 3h a week effectively turns
into you being on call for the vacation.

------
Apreche
Very easy to handle. There's just one word you have to learn.

The magic word is

"No"

Just say the word. That's it.

------
mnm1
Compromise. Ask for an extra week of vacation. I got three days for the mere
possibility that I would be around in case production went down. It didn't. I
was the only engineer on the team at the time. Come to think of it, no
different from you. Since you will definitely have to work, a whole week or
even longer is completely appropriate. Ask for a bit more and compromise if
you have to. But you must get compensated for this well. One day for every
hour you need to work seems fair.

------
dep_b
I've seen business owners of startups picking specific days to communicate
like every Wednesday during a holiday. If you're worried about checking your
mail all of the time you just as well could've kept working.

It's your decision ultimately but if it was a nice company otherwise and I
could check in only once per week or in case of a "the house is on fire"
emergency I probably would accept it.

Also make sure the days they ask you to check in are not counted as days off.

------
m3kw9
Depends on the situation, you could say he’s wrong based on how people here
draw a line, but to just pick and choose their principles it is risky. You
didn’t explain enough of the situation, your work culture, boss personality,
your relationship with him, and company size for a more accurate assessments.
If he’s an ass he could look for ways to push you out, and if you are in
certain financial situations you may want to play it a certain way

------
rb808
If its America yes I think its normal you're available for important decisions
and emergencies, esp in a small team. 3hrs/week sounds too much though.

------
alexmingoia
It doesn’t matter what other people find acceptable. It only matters whether
you find it acceptable. Listen to your own needs, not others.

------
bailey1541
So much of this is commentary by people who have never worked at a successful
startup that grows from zero to 100M+. Purists who would do well with a union
and have never felt what it is to be part of a core team that brings something
from zero to changing the world. They focus on questions like what has the
company done for me? And ignore the basic tenets of employment. Go work for a
10,000+ company with that attitude.

1) Decide if this company is in this category (you’re proud to be part of it
and think it can change the world); 2) Decide if you are someone who is
capable of doing this (it’s a huge commitment, are your ready and able to be a
world changer?); 3) Determine if you’re in an early enough group to justify
this commitment (~first ten? 20?); and, 4) Set reasonable parameters around
checking in / email to be available in an emergency, but otherwise are on
holiday (i.e. if it’s not an emergency / meeting agreed upon emergency
requirements, you’re on holiday and not working) — you’re not just answering
questions via email).

Above all, say what you mean (I will / will not do this) and do what you say.

For context, I’m founder of three startups collectively >$500M exits. And any
first five-ten employees who didn’t understand the above would have a short
tenure. They’re simply not startup material.

That said, we strive for 40-hour weeks, we take evenings and weekends off, and
we expect all statutory holidays and personal holidays off — always with the
caveat that if the fit hits the shan, we’re all available to band together and
solve the problem.

~~~
hrgvdbhsdnjsk
This is such baloney. If the company has no ability to function without you
for a week or two (barring emergencies) it's clearly a doomed enterprise.

Any boss who makes these demands does not understand how employee burnout
effects the long-term health of the company and does not value your role
enough to safeguard the contributions you make through well-managed redundancy
plans.

~~~
bailey1541
Given the criteria I set above - I would love to know your experience with it
before you call it baloney.

If you’ve never been a critical employee in building a company from zero to
something, I think that says enough.

Failing that experience and focusing on what the company is doing for you is
the brightest light ever telling you that you’ll never be part of a successful
startup.

------
vorpalhex
In a larger company, you have people who can realistically take on your
duties. In a company that small, it doesn't seem like anyone can fully. You
are a small enough company that you're almost in that realm of nobody really
gets a vacation, you just take time off and hope there's not any emergencies
that require you jumping back into work.

------
chrislh
As a manager for a small team myself, I think an important part of the job is
to making sure that no one person on that team is irreplaceable -- including
yourself.

Vacations are an incredible forcing function for proper documentation,
backups, knowledge, whatever. If there's _anyone_ on the team who can't be
100% offline for a week, that's a problem.

------
bayesian_horse
I'd prefer to read and - within limits - respond to emails on vacation over
the anxiety coming from being completely out of the loop.

Many companies or departments, especially smaller ones, don't have the
capability to make all employees redundant. Not always just because they can't
afford to have twice the employees they normally need.

------
sdwedq
Completely unacceptable.

All of my managers were available during vacation if something truly blows up.
But they never planned to dedicate a few hours for work on their vacations.

What your company needs is better processes and policies. iirc, most my
managers planned their vacations so that it was not right before or after
major releases or other events.

------
chooseaname
People are saying this is normal. Normal doesn't make it right.

I would check what the local laws for you are regarding this, but I would
personally say "no". Work with your team to make sure they know exactly what
they need to work on and clear the path of anything that may get in their way,
then go enjoy your vacation.

------
babycake
If you are so critical to the company's operations, then can you deduct 3 hrs
every week from the PTO you are taking? ie, if you are taking off 40 hours,
then only log 37 hours PTO taken, because you're expected to work 3 hrs a
week? Not ideal, but at least you will preserve your hard-earned PTO?

------
edent
Nope. Speak to your Trade Union about this. If you're on the clock, you're not
on leave and you need to be paid for it.

If you're not a member of a Trade Union, then I recommend taking your holiday
somewhere which has no phone reception. A nice mountain hike, or similar.

------
mbrodersen
Tell your boss that if they are willing to pay 2x your normal hour rate for
work done during your vacation then that's OK. If they are not then clearly
the work isn't important enough for your vacation to be interrupted.

------
s1t5
Tell him no and start looking for a new job. If you go along, your manager is
just taking advantage of you. If you don't, I expect that you'll have a really
hard time especially in a business this small and with a manager this bad.

------
throwaway888abc
It's getting more blurred since the flue.

Remote work vs work from home vs vacation vs time off

------
johnminter
In the company where I worked that was expected of professional level staff.
We could not afford to lose clients. We typically checked email daily and were
available by phone in an emergency. People did not abuse this.

------
jf22
Sounds normal to me.

I've always had to email a little on the weekends when in manager roles.

------
ksj2114
This is an acceptable ask in the companies I've worked in the U.S., especially
for a small business. My experience is that people will email you much less
than you expect, and it's just for emergencies

------
systematical
I did this for a company of the same size. I spent 15 minutes each morning
(during coffee) answering important emails. The rest I left for when i got
back.

------
ykevinator
Companies value people who are dependable, including being a little bit
available on vacation. Its not fair but it's true.

------
highhedgehog
I mean, what if your vacation is 3 weeks hiking in the wild with no reception?

------
flak48
Welp. So that also rules out going to places with no connectivity.

------
burlesona
I would say asking for a fixed time commitment is not reasonable, that’s not
vacation.

However, as a manager it can be hard to truly disconnect and take vacation
without either (a) missing a big decision and not being happy with the
decision that was made, or (b) delaying the rest of the team by asking them to
wait to make a decision until you get back.

So your options for this are:

(1) Have a designated substitute person who will cover your responsibilities
while you are out. As a manager this is an important part of your job
actually, succession planning. You should be teaching and grooming someone to
replace you when you leave. This should be a person who you trust and who you
work with a lot, so whatever decision they make will be okay with you. Then
you have to be zen about it and actually accept whatever decisions they make
while you were out.

(2) Try to pull forward any decisions that you can, so that everything is
settled before you leave. There’s a lot you can probably decide in advance,
but obviously that doesn’t help with the random unknown things that can pop up
at any time.

If you do both of the above then it really is reasonable to disconnect.

You should be able to tell your boss your goal is to truly disconnect, and he
or she should respect that. If your boss pushes back on these things, then you
should seek to understand why. Is there a specific meeting or a specific
conversation that can only happen during your vacation and your boss really
wants you to be there for it?

I don’t think it’s crazy to join in a specific conversation during a longer
vacation if it’s something that you really care about and it can’t move. Ask
yourself if it’s gonna drive you crazy not knowing what decision was made
until you get back :)

However, as everyone else has said, you aren’t really disconnecting if you
have some things from work you need to check on during your break. This is a
legitimate struggle for managers, and it means that sometimes you take partial
breaks where you get some rest but not a full vacation because you can’t
completely cut out.

It’s OK to take partial breaks sometimes, but not ideal, you also need full
breaks. Therefore is my final suggestion is this:

As a manager you end up scheduling your vacation time around your work.
Meaning, you probably know when the team is likely to have a stretch where
nothing major is going to happen, and that is when you should take a true
disconnect vacation. Obviously you can’t predict the future perfectly, so you
need the first two techniques to compensate for whatever unknown things may
pop up while you are gone. However, as you get used to being a manager you
will start to have a good feel for when you really need to be around and when
you don’t, and the best thing to do is to take vacation when you don’t really
need to be around. You’re not an IC anymore, so you can’t just peace out and
leave your manager to deal with it ;)

I hope this helps. Good luck, and welcome to being a manager :)

------
iphone_elegance
Just find a new job, life is to short

------
luckylion
Why is this on HN, and why are people upvoting it? Isn't WP.SE a thing any
more?

------
austincheney
3 hours per week is not a big deal. The higher you go the more you should
expect to live the job. If that’s a tough pill then don’t become a manager.

But really you only have 2 guys. That’s piss in a pond. Surely somebody can
account for your two people for a short time. Where I work managers have 40
people.

~~~
chooseaname
I'm sorry that you've been trained to think this way by current corporate
culture, but this is not okay and it has nothing to do with choosing to
swallow the manager pill or not or whatever that was supposed to mean.

People should be allowed to have a vacation. Full stop. No conditions.

It is a strength to want W/L separation, not a weakness.

~~~
austincheney
> People should be allowed to have a vacation. Full stop. No conditions.

When you move up to Vice President levels of a large company and are
responsible for hundreds of employees and a major product portfolio the
company should have the ability to reach you in case of an emergency. If a
product under your responsibility fails in production and critically damages
the company’s reputation should the company be able to call you during a
scheduled vacation day or should they respect that vacation day full stop?

At the same time, as a manager, you should be able to plan for contingencies
so that you can have a vacation with minimal disruptions. If you cannot put
actions into place to temporarily account for your non-emergency regular tasks
you either need to have an honest discussion with your boss about that failure
of leadership or re-examine your ability to plan.

