

Ask HN: When to leave a startup? - geek96

There are many stories or questions from the entrepreneurs point of view about when to tough it out or when to cut and run. But how about as an employee at a startup? At what point are the warning signs bad enough that its time to pack your bags?<p>I'm a very early employee at a startup (full-time before the founders were full-time). We have a product and have annual revenues near $500k. On the tech side of things, I love what I do. On the people side, it's miserable. On the compensation side, needs improvement (neither options, nor salary are industry-competitive).<p>The founder/management team is shockingly incompetent. We are a model example of all the negative traits of founder's syndrome. ( http://managementhelp.org/misc/founders.htm ) There is a culture of blame. The same mistakes happen again and again. Customers are treated poorly (it is a testament only to our niche that new customers keep calling us.) We do not advertise because, as the founder said, "What if someone ordered 100!?!? Then what would we do?"<p>After a recent $1M investment, they actually said, "Now that we have money, things will be better." Things are not better, but easy access to cash has certainly covered up the worst issues for the moment.<p>So how about it? When is it bad enough that an employee should jump ship? For what reasons would it be worth toughing it out?
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notahacker
Unless you tend towards exaggeration when describing things, you only need to
re-read your own post to know the answer to this. You don't consider the
leadership to have a blind spot that might be remedied, you consider them
"shockingly incompetent". Unlike clumsily managed larger enterprises, they
don't pay well, don't sound like they have any defensible advantages and are
painted as being on the verge of shutdown. You're crediting the _niche_ rather
than the product itself for being able to generate revenue despite a lack of
effort directed at winning and retaining clients.

If a job's sole saving grace is solving interesting problems and you've been
the driving force behind finding a solution, surely there are better options
open?

~~~
geek96
Good points, it is eye-opening to re-read my own words.

The tech is flipping awesome. The company is commercializing research
developed at a university. Imagine a research lab with several people -- the
really smart ones that truly invented the tech got jobs and moved on. The guy
that copied everyone elses homework started this business from what they left
behind.

It's a small niche, that's why customers keep finding us. But the tech really
is the best in our niche. Perhaps needs more polish to finish the research to
commercial transition - but functionally excellent.

Definitely no efforts made to attract customers, and little effort to retain
them. Yet somehow they keep calling. Now in negotiations with the first big
customer -- if the deal works out the company will be on solid financial
ground for awhile.

That's the sort of upside that makes me consider sticking around. Of course, I
also think about launching for myself....

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tungwaiyip
Ask yourself honestly if you are unhappy. This alone is a big reason to move.
For me being unhappy is even worst than being pay poorly.

The tech job market is very hot lately. You should check out your option out
there.

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sagacity
Was the company externally funded? If so, try and investigate the profiles of
angles/investors who (financially) backed the startup. This often 'tells the
tale'.

If the startup is backed by someone (whether an individual or other entity)
with a 'proven' track record, it is probably worth sticking it out a little
longer.

Hope that answers your question.

\- HTH

~~~
geek96
The original funding came through some government-sponsored startup loans with
very generous terms. We were within a week of closing the doors when the more
recent investment came through. Because of the financial issues at the time,
the terms of that investment are not great for the company -- sort of kills
any hope of a bidding war in the future.

So no, nothing with a proven track record. I guess that's even more evidence
that supports leaving.

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brudgers
Can what you love about the tech side be found elsewhere?

If yes, then you can at least match what you have (interesting work, crappy
compensation, and crappy office culture) someplace else.

~~~
geek96
Yes, I believe it can. Though it is a small field. I think it's worth putting
more efforts into other interviews at this point.

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jsavimbi
I'm currently at a startup and this is probably my fifth or sixth, I cannot
remember, and I've experienced pretty much everything you've listed: people
suck, pay is wonky, managerial incompetence, hush money. Those traits are
germain to any business, but in the startup game you have to understand that
you're making certain sacrifices in exchange for greater reward at the end. If
you see no end, then you have to ask yourself the following:

Do I share the company's vision?

If the answer is "no", then pack your bags (fire up resume, get job first)
because life will not get better for you even if the company succeeds in
meeting their short or long term goals.

If the answer is 'yes', then you have to realistically determine if your
personal success is tied to the company's. Will you be compensated adequately
once the company achieves success (sale, merger, continued investment)? Is
that compensation commensurate with what you'd be making at a similar firm?
What is your opportunity cost for not pursuing those same goals (cashing out)
at a similar firm? And, realistically speaking, can you remain at the company
without losing your mind or getting fired in order to complete your personal
goals (vesting period)?

In most cases, any given Friday is a good time to leave a startup as you'll
have an entire weekend to relax and get over leaving an unhappy situation and
begin to work on your future. Most people are tied into their job and don't
leave because they're unsure if they'll be able to obtain similar or better
employment elsewhere on their own. If you have the skills to work somewhere
else and you've proven that you can do your current job, I'd start floating my
resume out there and test the waters. It's best to do it while still employed
(note to self)!

And when asked, "why are you unhappy in your current position" simply respond
"I no longer share their vision."

~~~
geek96
Thanks for the feedback!

One issue is that there is no company vision. When I ask about the company's
goals, founder #1 says that if we make enough money to survive for 10 years,
then that's fine. founder #2 says we're a high-growth company, and we want to
be bought out for $400Million.

The follow up question, "what's the plan to achieve that vision?" is met with
blank stares from both of them. The vision is inconsistent at best, and there
is no plan to agree or disagree with.

In my opinion, founder #1 just wants a high-tech sandbox to play in. If he
gets enough money so that he gets to keep playing then he's happy. founder #2
has friends who made a bunch of money in a startup -- he wants to be like them
but doesn't actually know how.

I already started floating my resume out there to test the waters a bit. So
far, everything seems better than here. I'm concerned that I'm looking at the
greener grass on the other side of the fence, though.

Excellent tip about no longer sharing their vision. I had no desire to air our
company's dirty laundry in an interview -- but I had to scramble for a PC
response when posed that question a couple weeks ago.

~~~
maxbrown
First, I would have the response in your pocket when you walk in to an
interview. That's a question you can expect.

Second, if you do get another job and you have the luxury to, maybe ask the
company if you can consult with them for a week before deciding (get a week
off of your current job). Nothing worse than moving from something you don't
like to something you think you do, only to find out that it's the same or
worse.

