
Our continuing commitment to your privacy with Windows 10 - EpicBlackCrayon
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/01/10/continuing-commitment-privacy-windows-10/#T1XtoToOrXLdUWvE.97
======
barrkel
I'm uncomfortable sharing the amount of time I have games running with Steam;
I certainly don't want MS to have information about which applications I'm
running and for how long.

MS and I have radically different expectations about what privacy means in the
context of a personal computer.

In particular, I run applications I've written myself. You could easily figure
out what I'm doing from knowing which application was in the foreground at any
given time.

Contents of files etc. is at the extreme end of privacy violation. I strongly
object to the thinnest end of the wedge.

~~~
criley2
Thank you for bringing up the invasive and crazy anti-privacy policies of
Valve/Steam, it boggles my mind that so few people have problems with it.

Could you imagine if Facebook pushed a notification to all your friends when
you visit a new page?

If Microsoft sent an email to your entire contact book every single time you
opened a program?

And yet, that's precisely what Steam does. Insane.

~~~
wallacoloo
Hmm. For the most part I only play games in a social setting - local
multiplayer or online - so it may be different for me. When I join an IRC
channel, every other user sees "wallacoloo has joined" and I've never heard
anyone complain about that. It's an open invitation, "hey, I'm here now -
message me!" Similarly for Steam, the notification serves the purpose of
saying "hey friends, I'm playing Rocket League now if you want to join".

Isn't the whole point of friending people on Steam so that they can play games
with you? In that case, this behavior seems pretty intuitive to me. Though
from that angle, broadcasting this announcement for single-player/non-
networked games doesn't really achieve anything and should maybe not be the
default.

~~~
criley2
"When I join an IRC channel, every other user sees "wallacoloo has joined" and
I've never heard anyone complain about that."

I'm okay with Steam saying "Soandso has logged on" but not "Soandso has moved
their mouse 400 pixels, double left clicked, and is starting new software...
stay tuned!"

"Isn't the whole point of friending people on Steam so that they can play
games with you?"

The whole point of steam is a distribution platform. It has a defacto monopoly
on computer gaming with some 3/4 of the entire market through the platform.

Sure, I play the occasional multiplayer game, but the other 80% of my behavior
doesn't need to be publically broadcast against my will at all times.

It's ridiculous: I have to click "appear offline" then log into the Steam Chat
website just to play a game and not have my steam account announce that to
everyone I know. Sometimes you just don't want to push notify everyone you
know about your every behavior.

Also -- why be friends on steam? "Dude you didn't friend me yet" "Dude i sent
u my info a week ago" "Dude i thought you said you wanted to friend me" "Dude"
"dude"

You have to friend people or they get offended. Social networks and psychology
man. I just don't want a f'n social network in my video game launcher. Crazy.
Not every single computer endpoint has to be a social network.

------
kardos
This comes across as: "Now that we've got all your private data, there's a
diminishing return on maintaining a system to collect it again, so we'll go
for some positive PR by putting this interface up and let you secure a false
sense of privacy"

They've been collecting "telemetry" through an opaque encrypted collection
system [1], and after a year of this collection, comes a "deep commitment to
privacy"? This is very difficult to believe. Am I needlessly cynical here?

[1] As far as I know, nobody has decrypted the "telemetry" streams, so we
don't actually know what MSFT is collecting, so nobody can be sure that it
doesn't collect your sensitive documents, private keys, keyboard logs, etc.

~~~
KirinDave
Your subjective opinion is noted, but I'm confused how someone with this read
would ever be appeased.

Sequence of events:

1\. Microsoft ships an OS with signal collection roughly analagous to OSX. 2\.
Microsoft is raked over the coals for this. 3\. Microsoft scales it back a
bit. 4\. People demand more. 5\. Microsoft actually makes a UI and offers even
more cutbacks, with less collection by default and a more thorough set up
experience. 6\. People claim this is a PR stunt.

What the hell do you actually want other than a black hole to swallow the
Redmond you learned to hate in high school? That ship has sailed. They're
already gone.

~~~
hendersoon
I want a way to completely opt-out. That's it.

Is that so unreasonable?

~~~
ksk
You can already do that. Just block their servers.

~~~
frik
You can't. They whitelisted IPs and Domains in kernel mode part of Win10. Good
luck, and I hope you carry a hardware firewall with your notebook.

~~~
hendersoon
Wow, is that right?

I do block searchui.exe at the network level, and that works. Unless you block
it, Win10 talks to MS with every local filesystem search, even with Cortana
and web search integration disabled.

Only telemetry and windows update is whitelisted in the kernel?

~~~
KirinDave
I couldn't find any corroborating evidence to back that claim up, for what
it's worth. It's sort of true for the insider editions (but those are a semi-
private beta program).

~~~
hendersoon
I hadn't heard of that either. I think he was probably incorrect.

------
mintplant
It's telling that the lowest telemetry level is considered a premium
"Enterprise" feature [1], and there's no way to disable it entirely.

[1] [https://technet.microsoft.com/en-
us/itpro/windows/manage/con...](https://technet.microsoft.com/en-
us/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization)
CTRL-F "windows 10 enterprise"

~~~
clebio
Thanks for that. I _still_ can't tell, from looking through it -- are they
going to stop harvesting wifi access point passwords? That alone (along with
many of the other items) is a non-starter.

~~~
Amezarak
It seems misleading to describe Wi-Fi Sense has harvesting passwords - that's
a side effect and not the purpose.

That said, I'm not sure if Microsoft still stores Wi-Fi passwords at all; if
they do, they removed the primary benefit: Wi-Fi passwords can no longer be
shared. The Wi-Fi Sense privacy page only talks about open networks now. _If_
they still store Wi-Fi passwords on their servers, it must be only used for
profile sync. I can't find any information one way or another.

[https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-about-wifi-
se...](https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-about-wifi-sense)

~~~
clebio
A lot of what Microsoft does regarding privacy is misleading.

------
gizmo
That's funny, it's a web-based privacy dashboard that only works when you link
your Windows 10 account with your Microsoft Live account. In other words: the
opposite of privacy.

Your bing search history shouldn't be linked to your identity in the first
place. Same for cortana and edge. So Microsoft isn't getting any kudos for
allowing users to see what kind of data is being collected on them (which they
have to do by EU law anyhow).

I applaud any serious projects that advance privacy but this ain't it.

~~~
akjainaj
The web-based dashboard is for your MS account. Keep reading and you'll see
what's coming to desktops.

~~~
gizmo
Except they're still collecting everything by default and shifting the
responsibility to review the privacy settings to the consumer.

They conclude:

> When it comes to your privacy, we strive to make choices easy to understand
> while also providing clear visibility and control over your data.

This is entirely the wrong approach. Just don't harvest the data in the first
place. Have opt-in measures if you must. That's it. That's what a serious
commitment to privacy looks like. Anything else is a serious commitment to get
away with harvesting as much data as possible while minimizing PR backlash.

~~~
bradford
(disclaimer, ms employee here and the below is just my opinion).

> Just don't harvest the data in the first place.

for better or worse, I just don't think this is feasible anymore. Telemetry
is, by now, a fundamental part of the engineering process. Products that don't
incorporate it are going to be clobbered by products that do. Microsoft didn't
start this paradigm, but I think they had to incorporate it in order to stay
competitive.

If you can't avoid telemetry, I think the next best thing is to be transparent
about it (with respect to what's being collected, how it's being used) and
allow the user some control over it (by letting them 'clear' data that's been
collected, and opting in/out as needed). In that respect, I don't think the
steps taken today are sufficient, but they are headed in the correct
direction. I also think they are being more open/transparent than many other
tech companies (who do similar things without receiving nearly as much
negative press as MS).

~~~
akjainaj
Telemetry is important if you've gotten rid of, you know, the QA teams MS had
in the past

~~~
bradford
Can't tell if you're being tongue-in-cheek, but that was kind of the problem.
The cost it took to do QA for Windows was immense, and even with an army of
testers, there were still highly embarrassing (and very expensive to fix)
flaws in the product _all the time_. Windows had to find a cheaper solution or
die a slow death in the market.

Earlier I said "Products that don't incorporate [telemetry] are going to be
clobbered by products that do". High QA costs are the biggest part of this.

~~~
dingaling
> The cost it took to do QA for Windows was immense

As it should be when you're developing an OS for 90% of the market across a
huge variety of hardware. There's really no way around that, and jettisoning
QA teams as a cost-saving response is incomprehensible to me.

Trusting telemetry alone to ensure the robustness of your product will result
in a "good enough to ship" focus on mainstream work-flows and leave corner-
cases unaddressed since they're rare. And corner-cases are where the bad,
system-breaking things happen.

Telemetry should help QA people write mundane automated test-cases to cover
the 99% and then enable them to go and spend the _constructive_ part of their
time focusing on breaking the system. But it's absolutely not a replacement
for QA.

~~~
bradford
I'd say that 'jettisoning QA teams' is a mischaracterization. The role is
still filled, it's just evolved a lot since the windows 8.1 (and prior) era.
Similarly, I'd say that 'Trusting telemetry alone' is also a
mischaracterization.

From where I sit, both roles are combined. The output is a far smoother
engineering process and a higher quality OS. You mentioned 'corner cases
[being] unaddressed' but I've witnessed the exact opposite: most of the
criticism I hear about Win10 has nothing to do with quality.

------
zelon88
Having the default position of gathering everyone's personal information and
requiring them to learn more about your policies before manually opt-ing out
is a huge problem, and it's one of the major reasons why I upgraded my
personal Computers from Windows 7 to Ubuntu. The "GWX" thing didn't help
either.

How about you take a page from your own book and go back to an O/S that
strictly runs my programs and doesn't look for analytics in my computing
habits? Honestly, taking payment for a product and still using the client as a
product through gathering analytics is double-dipping. It's monetized twice
over and provides no added value to the user.

------
tabeth
I regret ever using Google or Facebook services so extensively. I'm on Windows
7 and intentionally never upgraded to Windows 10 due to the privacy issues.
From this announcement it doesn't sound like there's anyway to 100% remove any
tracking for all applications. Am I mistaken?

~~~
bostand
Microsoft mistake was to mark telemetry as such. Everyone where happy with win
7 and 8 where this was hidden from user...

~~~
hendersoon
Windows 10 telemetry collects far, far more data than the customer experience
program did on Windows 7 and 8-- and you could opt out of the CEP.

(Note that Microsoft patched Win10-style telemetry into Win7 and 8 in 2016, so
this is no longer the case. But it was when those OS's were current.)

~~~
KirinDave
But Windows 10 doesn't collect much more than Apple and Safari do. It collects
substantially less than iOS and Android do. And of course, all of this ignores
that individual 3rd party software is actually the real culprit (along with
websites).

~~~
hendersoon
That's immaterial, because MacOS allows users to opt-out of data collection.
Windows does not.

Mobile operating systems are a completely different animal.

~~~
bostand
I very much doubt osx let's you disable all data collection and still allow
you use the store and its apps and iTunes content and all that.

~~~
hendersoon
You can't use their store without any data collection because the core
functionality of a store entails sending data to Apple. That's fine and I
don't count it as telemetry.

Like I said elsewhere in the thread, I expect Spotify to know I listened to
"Bring Me to Life" by Evanescence when I streamed it via their program. That's
perfectly fine. I don't expect MICROSOFT to know that.

~~~
KirinDave
> That's perfectly fine. I don't expect MICROSOFT to know that.

Why do you think they do as it stands? Unless of course you use the media
player from their store. iTunes has a nearly identical setup.

In general they're only collecting the outer edge of application usage. I hope
people realize Apple effectively has the exact same data via their bundled
store solution? The idea that MS is unique or even first here is wrong.

~~~
hendersoon
According to Microsoft, on "full" telemetry they actually could know I
listened to that song if the Spotify program crashed.

Note that Enhanced is the default today, but Full will be the default
telemetry level in the update this thread is actually about.

Anyway, that was just an example illustrating the difference between an
application talking back to its server to deliver core functionality and OS
telemetry.

~~~
KirinDave
Apple collects the crash reports for App store apps too. They just continued
to use the brand testflight. But it's all Apple now.

If the app developers elect to use testflight to manage crash reports (which
they're suggested to do, and it's a good service for devs), then yeah, Apple
owns that pipeline. So yeah, they do end up handling that data.

~~~
hendersoon
Apple allows you to turn it off.

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202031](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT202031)

Again, I have no problem with telemetry being on by default, so long as the
user is permitted to opt-out.

------
criddell
> We are continuing this commitment to make it as easy as possible for you to
> make informed choices about your privacy with Windows 10

Can I choose to keep all of my data private? Why is there no opt-out?

They like to talk about the benefits of the sharing the data with them and I
think that's great. They should make it so compelling that I _want_ to share
my data. So far, they haven't. I feel like I'm giving up far too much for what
I'm getting in return.

------
red_admiral
"We also recognize organizations have different needs than individuals when
addressing privacy."

Translation: in our opinion, individuals don't need that much privacy. So we
won't give them any.

~~~
smartmic
In contemplation of those "news", I recommend a refreshing lecture about free
software from Richard Stallman:

[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-
impor...](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-
important.html)

Excerpt: "With free software, the users control the program, both individually
and collectively. So they control what their computers do (assuming those
computers are loyal and do what the users' programs tell them to do).

With proprietary software, the program controls the users, and some other
entity (the developer or “owner”) controls the program. So the proprietary
program gives its developer power over its users. That is unjust in itself,
and tempts the developer to mistreat the users in other ways."

------
akerro
>At Microsoft, we are deeply committed to protecting our customers’ privacy.
This includes providing clear choices and easy-to-use tools that put you in
control of how your information is collected and used.

LOL here I stopped reading this FUD. Do they still re-enable telemetry when
updates to them are installed?

~~~
hendersoon
Yes, they do.

------
EasyTiger_
My god this is painful to read with all the cold and opaque corporate speak.
When they start referring to everything as 'experiences' my brain switches off

~~~
lokedhs
Under Ballmer, you never had a Microsoft press release or any other statement
without the word "innovation" sprayed all over it.

It seems that the new Microsoft are now using the word "experience" for the
same effect.

------
xg15
I do like how the "simplified" privacy controls conflates sharing choices you
would want to make with sharing choices that don't benefit you in any way.
E.g.: Share your location with the weather app and microsoft? Yes/No. Share
your location _only_ with the weather app? Sorry, that's not possible.

~~~
linkregister
To be fair, if the weather app is developed by Microsoft, then you are sharing
your location with Microsoft.

~~~
funkymike
There is no need for the weather app to identify you as the user. It only
needs to fetch the weather data for a given location.

------
divbit
Windows 10 vs Android vs iOS data collection. Has anyone written up a good
comparison? (I guess I am thinking of these in their mobile OS form).

------
hendersoon
This is standard Microsoft BS.

"Basic" telemetry is absolutely not required for Windows to function. How do I
know that? Because I turned it off using a 3rd party program (link below) and
Windows still functions.

Windows Enterprise and Education can set telemetry to "Security" which is
ACTUALLY a minimum reasonable setting for Windows to function. They explicitly
block Windows Home and Pro users from setting telemetry to "Security".

It's outrageous that MS gets away with this. If only videogames released on
MacOS, I would have switched years ago.

O&O Shutup10: [https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10](https://www.oo-
software.com/en/shutup10)

"Security" telemetry description: [https://technet.microsoft.com/en-
us/itpro/windows/manage/con...](https://technet.microsoft.com/en-
us/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-
organization#security-level)

~~~
Sargos
"It's outrageous that MS gets away with this. If only videogames released on
MacOS, I would have switched years ago"

MacOS collects this same telemetry data. Do you trust Apple over Microsoft?
It's non-identifying data that is used to make their products better and track
crashes. Now they are going above and beyond other products and letting you
turn even that non-intrusive feature off.

~~~
hendersoon
I don't trust anyone.

Apple allows MacOS users to opt-out of their telemetry. Microsoft doesn't.

That includes this change, too, by the way. Users still are not permitted to
opt-out of telemetry on Windows 10 Home or Pro.

------
kstrauser
"Continuing" implies that it was there in the first place, and I don't believe
that to be the case. Between

\- The telemetry,

\- Spying on kids by default
([https://boingboing.net/2015/08/10/windows-10.html](https://boingboing.net/2015/08/10/windows-10.html)
\- I helped my kid disable this on his new Christmas laptop), and

\- The "share your Wi-Fi passwords with your friends" feature

I just don't have any confidence that Microsoft isn't analyzing everything I
do and sharing all my metadata with anyone who wants it. Say what you will
about macOS and Linux, but at least with those I'm the customer and not the
product.

------
hyperion2010
I just built my father a new computer and while I know that Windows 7 has some
related issues they are nowhere near the level of Windows 10 (and that bit
about forced restarts sounds a whole lot like an involuntary bsod 'crash' from
about 1996...). Thus I went out of my way to get a license for W7 Ultimate...
which cost more than the equivalent for W10. Makes me wonder.

~~~
thewavelength
Iirc, in an update end of 2016 the full telemetry weapons have been pushed to
W7 and W8 by default. All three OS now include the same level of telemetry.
Just wanted to let you know.

~~~
hyperion2010
Sigh. Thanks for the reminder.

------
eps
> _Continuing commitment to privacy with Windows 10_

MWAHAHAHAHA... Jesus. Just read it word by word.

That's some Grade A newspeak. Such a strong wiff of Orwell.

------
gizmo
Recommended for Windows 10 users, although you may want to review every change
carefully.

[https://modzero.github.io/fix-windows-
privacy/](https://modzero.github.io/fix-windows-privacy/)

------
ivraatiems
On the surface, I'm glad Microsoft is doing this. However, it's hard for me to
ignore the idea that with these positive changes might come hidden, negative
changes. That is, I don't think I can trust Microsoft to just do what they say
they're doing in this announcement; I won't fully believe this is better for
privacy overall until people have been over the new version of Windows with a
fine-toothed comb and confirmed it. Plus, there are indicators (like the
language around the switching off of invasive settings) that Microsoft's goal
is still to collect way more data than seems reasonable.

------
MrZongle2
_My_ continuing commitment to my privacy means that I continue to stick with
Windows 7, and only for those things that I must use Windows for. Everything
else is done on Linux.

I acknowledge that this alone doesn't guarantee my privacy, but I refuse to
make it _easy_ for corporations to rifle through my personal documents and
watch me like a hawk.

Aside from that, I object to having a "free" upgrade option shoved down my
throat so often and aggressively that I've got to hack the registry to shut it
up. It's clear that Microsoft _still_ doesn't give a damn about what I want as
a user.

~~~
hendersoon
Microsoft added Win10-style telemetry to Win7 in 2016. You're running it right
now!

~~~
MrZongle2
And like I said, I realize that avoiding the upgrade to Windows 10 doesn't
guarantee my privacy...but I'm not making it easier for Microsoft. I'll
continue to disable that nonsense by removing specific updates.

And I'll continue using Linux. Redmond can double-down on their Orwellian
fantasy while calling it the opposite, but in the long run it will cost them
dearly.

------
olkid
As long as Windows 10 continues to establish unsolicited tcp connections on
boot, there is ZERO privacy.

~~~
raesene9
Many OS' and apps create unsolicited TCP connections on startup to check for
updates, seems a touch harsh to equate that with "Zero Privacy", also kind of
hard to see how they do product updates without them...

~~~
PhantomGremlin
_kind of hard to see how they do product updates without them..._

It's very easy to see how they do product updates without them. Simply have
the user do "software update ..." at his convenience.

What you meant to say is it's kind of hard to see how they FORCE product
updates without them.

~~~
raesene9
For non-technical users, it seems pretty likely that a product without
automatic updates, users won't update frequently.

This results in users getting compromised... a lot... that's why pretty much
every heavily used piece of consumer software now does automatic updates, from
Apple, to Google to Microsoft.

Decrying automatic updates as "zero privacy" seems a bit daft in that context.

------
tgsovlerkhgsel
So, still no way to opt out.

I expected Microsoft to realize how much trust they've burned, and that the
data from 5% of users who bother to change their settings aren't worth the bad
PR. As a result, I expected that after however long it takes for a big company
to react to feedback, they'll do an about-face and try to salvage what they
can. Seems like I was wrong (or they need another year or two to come to that
conclusion).

------
aszantu
As a user I don't feel save enough to trust my operating system with its word,
that if I'm going to dissable shit it stays off. I'm still on Win 7 and still
sometimes don't feel sure, that it does what I say it should.

------
venomsnake
Brilliant double speak. If Micrisoft cared at all they would have one big
button called turn off all collection.

~~~
antisthenes
Yes, and without having to make an account to do it.

------
zippoxer
Oh finally, Microsoft tackled _NONE_ of Windows 10's privacy problems. I can't
believe the most common PC operating system in the world tracks you by default
and prevents you from completely opting out.

If only Linux ran Overwatch as well as Windows does, I'd never boot this
spyware again.

------
Spooky23
I didn't read the article, but the title makes me assume that I have no
privacy. Good news doesn't get delivered with titles like that.

------
benevol
"commitment to your privacy with Windows", says the data collecting PRISM
program member.

It's so surreal that there are no words for it anymore.

------
Hydraulix989
I'm using the O&O ShutUp desktop software to disable all of the invasive
telemetry, phoning home, etc.:

[https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10](https://www.oo-
software.com/en/shutup10)

There's also a few scripts on GitHub like win10-unfuck:

[https://github.com/dfkt/win10-unfuck](https://github.com/dfkt/win10-unfuck)

~~~
STRiDEX
Saw this on hacker news the other day
[https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1](https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1)

------
threepipeproblm
Can't use the privacy manager without a Microsoft account.

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

------
fuzzfactor
IOW, not enough committment yet to make Windows 10 suitable for the internet.

I understand.

This is by design.

------
pasbesoin
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me for the 10,000th time...

------
noja
continuing?

I stopped reading. Marketing bull does that.

------
UhUhUhUh
('Our continuing commitment to %s with Windows 10', s)

------
Waterluvian
I hate hearing my hard drives grinding away only to find its windows fucking
telemetry. I keep trying to shut it off to no avail.

------
bostand
I think this is great, they are pretty upfront with what they are collecting
and why they need that

What's with all these negative comments here? Does any other os give you so
much information about what is going on behind the scene?

~~~
floopidydoopidy
Seriously? Linux and BSD, for example, give you complete control over all the
information harvested from you.

~~~
bostand
Most of the time. Do you remember Ubuntu amazon search? Their geolocation
database?

~~~
uabstraction
Yeah, one distribution tried this a few years back, got grilled to a char by
the community for it, and swiftly trashed the idea. This is nothing like
Microsoft turning Windows into one giant dark pattern and trying to convince
the world that it's progress while showing no signs of backing down despite
the overwhelming backlash.

Ubuntu's Amazon integration was a failed experiment in an ecosystem with
literally hundreds of other players to choose from while Microsoft's Windows
telemetry is an inescapable dogma forced upon all Windows users.

~~~
bostand
Ubuntu is still doing some questionable things.

At least on 16.04 gvfs-http would sometimes create hundreds of connections to
the mothership even with all privacy settings maxed out.

