
Why American Mothers are Superior - credo
http://www.thejuliagroup.com/blog/?p=1033
======
aresant
I am amused that yesterday a top HN story was about the demise of internet
advertising and the associated HN comments trend towards agreeing that ads are
not effective:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2098301> and
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2101163>

Then today the top story is poking fun of "advertising words" which is an
intellectualized kick in the face to the techniques that marketers use to draw
you in.

And yet meanwhile we're all discussing for the 5th time the WSJ linkbait
article on "Chinese Mothers" that exists for the sole purpose of promoting Amy
Chao's book the "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" from which WSJ's original
article was copy and pasted.

She arrived at #6 on Amazon's top sellers today.

~~~
krschultz
Lots of articles have linkbait titles and promote books. Few resonate on here.
That article resonated on here becuase a lot of people on the site are
intimatedly familar with pros & cons of the style of mothership described in
the book.

I don't really see what point you are trying to make.

~~~
axod
The point is "I never click ads! They're terrible only idiots click them!"...
"Ooh an advert for a book <click>"

~~~
derefr
Clicking _into_ a long-copy ad is different from clicking _from_ an ad _to_
the thing it is selling. I consume advertising (especially the funny, viral
kind) all the time; I just never feel motivated by it to buy what it's
selling.

------
wintyfresh
I'm writing this from Hong Kong, where I run a scholarship for young
entrepreneurs in mainland China. A few thoughts:

-To understand the mentality of a Chinese parent, you need to know a few things. First, the obvious one child policy, and the expectation that this one child will support their children but also their parents and grandparents (no social security, minuscule pensions and a non-existent safety net). This puts an enormous pressure on the individual to have a stable and high wage job. Lots of people on these boards are in startups (or would like to be), but few Chinese nationals are willing to take that route due to the immense risks involved. They're gambling not only their personal wealth but also the survival of their family.

-School is brutal, particularly college admissions. Each student at the end of high school takes something called the gaokao. Imagine the SAT on steroids (2 days long) that you only take one and almost wholly determines what "tier" of college you get admitted into. You can take it once a year, and if you fail, you have a second chance one year later (the intervening year is usually spent studying 14+ hrs a day). You pour a gazillion college-bound kids into this crucible of death, with only a scant few slots at the other end. Even for the student goes abroad to study, they've been indoctrinated with the cutthroat and "success at all costs" mentality necessary to get ahead in China. It's a numbers game, and the numbers are stacked to make your life hell.

What does this have to do with obsessive parents? Take these last two facts
and mix in some historical perspective. Many of these parents either lived
through or are sufficiently proximate to the turmoil of the 1960's and 1970's
to know how brutal life can be for those that do not get ahead. It's not the
American poverty of temp labor and living in a trailer park; it's the poverty
of starving to death. It's the poverty of not having shelter from the cold, of
having zero access to medical care. While this is less true of today's China,
the fear of this poverty survives, even for those in relative affluence (think
of your grandparents that lived through the depression and still are
obsessively thrifty).

I can understand why these parents are monomaniacal in ensuring (or trying to
ensure) a better life for their kids. With grueling competition, a one-child
policy, scant social safety nets and a vivid memory of how brutal China can
be, it makes sense.

~~~
richcollins
None of that speaks to her criticism of the practice of focusing on rote
learning over creativity. I think you can make a good argument that a creative
thinker is less likely to fall behind in the real world than someone that only
takes the prescribed approach to solving problems.

~~~
enry_straker
It provides context. Dr.Chua's article was not just about rote learning vs
creativity. For instance, how far do you think rote learning can go in music?

I would suspect that children need a balanced mix of both: discipline to learn
the basics in whichever field they want to get into, coupled with freedom to
explore their own interests. I suspect that today's american school culture
stresses creativity to the point of ignoring the fundamentals. The good thing
is that there are self-correcting mechanisms built into the american system as
opposed to the chinese system where the children and the parents too, rarely
get much of a say.

------
bhousel
Also worth reading is The Last Psychiatrist's response to the Chinese mothers
article:
[http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/01/why_chinese_mothers_a...](http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/01/why_chinese_mothers_are_not_su.html)

~~~
dkl
I really love this guy's writing. He cuts through the layers of BS so well and
exposes something closer to root causes better than anyone I've ever seen.

~~~
tomjen3
Its pretty damn good, but the author is a she.

~~~
pchristensen
?!?! I've read everything TLP wrote since someone else on HN recommended it a
few months ago, and never did it cross my mind that it was written by a woman.
I guess the pictures of hot girls threw me off.

~~~
tomjen3
Look under the picture of the hot girl.
[http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/12/taboos_are_the_ways_c...](http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/12/taboos_are_the_ways_christians_1.html)

>... my husband said the same thing

~~~
rsheridan6
That's the caption to the pic - meant to be read in hot girl's voice, not
TLP's.

------
marvinalone
It reads like we're having a child-off between exceptionally gifted Chinese
children, and exceptionally gifted American children. What about normal
children?

I'd love to see these anecdotes turned into evidence.

~~~
cookiecaper
[http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/22/17-gifted-
childre...](http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/22/17-gifted-children/)

~~~
docgnome
Heh. That reminds me of the scene from Pride and Prejudice where they discuss
how "accomplished" is applied too liberally to young ladies.

------
dusklight
The title of the article is "Why American Mothers are Superior" but the body
of the article primarily talks about the writer's own parenting, and from her
description we can clearly tell that she is far from representative of the
typical American mother. I am definitely not going to endorse the Chinese
model, I think it has huge problems, but I think there are many 28-year-old
unemployed History majors out there right now wishing that the status quo on
American parenting had been a little bit different when it could have helped
them. There are a lot of fat kids in theatre school, a lot of mediocre
musicians, a lot of aspiring fashion designers who would maybe benefit from a
little less love and a little more splash of reality.

------
grav1tas
I found it sort of silly in both articles that they make a universal
qualification, but then follow up their reasoning based on more or less
anecdotal, personal evidence. Whether you're Chinese or American, it doesn't
make you superior at all. What makes you superior is the direction and tone
you take with your children based on who they are and who you are. Where this
jingoistic element came in, I'm not really sure. Call me naive, but I think
that China and America are both _really big_ places that probably have many
different cultures and families that take different approaches to raising
children.

These labels don't advance the conversation much for me.

~~~
gwern
You would think an actual statistician with a thesis in psychometrics would be
able to do better than that, yeah. It's fine to talk about anecdotes and her
experience as an employer and what not, but without the facts, it's like a
dinner with only dessert.

~~~
sliverstorm
She countered anecdote with anecdote, I think that's fair. In fact, it could
even be a jibe on the part of a clever statistician at the original work.

------
cafard
Here's a proposal, and it may come from having just glanced at The Last
Psychiatrist blog: this year, the HN Lenten penance will be "no postings about
education." Nothing about American schools awful; nothing about American
schools actually not awful; nothing about college admissions; nothing about H
__ __ _d or S_ __ __d or M*T. No Michelle Rhee, no Gates Foundation.

Will it be good for your soul? Dunno, consult your local cleric. Will it be
good for your mind? YMMV. It may not make you thinner, but it will make HN
thinner.

~~~
blasdel
Topic bans can be a godsend, especially on a site like this one with short-
lived threads where it's even easier to repeat the same tiresome 'discussion'
over and over.

In another community I frequented for years, the set of mostly-verboten topics
grew to include stuff like cat declawing, ownership of TVs or SUVs, atheism,
male circumcision, Israel / Palestine, and fiat currency.

------
kapilkaisare
This is not necessarily a defense, but...

Until very recently in India, being anything other than a doctor, engineer or
MBA meant earning salaries so poor that you'd end up depending on your
children for financial support when you retired. This in turn drove you to
spend as much money as you could on your children's education because it was
an investment in your own future, while also serving as a badge of pride when
your kids came home with straight As. So, you'd find folks who instead of
trying to build a meager pension, would instead pool all their resources into
a college education for their children. Indeed, many old Indian movies use the
image of a son who abandons his parents in search of a glitzy life in the city
to portray his villainy.

These professions were not natural callings but the only option out of an
existence of drudgery. Things are changing now, with the advent of the BPO
industry, and the subsequent higher earning power which can then fund other
circles of vocations. Consequently you see several guys opting for the arts or
other paths less followed.

------
angdis
I'm convinced the original article by the Chinese mother was some kind of
satire. I simply can't believe a reasonably intelligent person (a Yale prof!)
can write that with a straight face-- the bit about not letting kids
participate in school plays takes the cake.

~~~
ghshephard
Three things to note:

    
    
      o Amy Chua did not come up with the Title of the WSJ article.
    
      o The WSJ went out of their way to string the most controversial elements.  
        Think of it as LinkBaiting..  They certainly got a lot of attention.  
    
      o The actual book is much more nuanced, and, to some degree, 
       comes to different conclusions than the article about the true 
       nature of parenthood.
    

I've spent quite a bit of time reading the reviews, and snips from the book,
and have come to the conclusion that the WSJ editors, indeed, did a great job
of writing a satirical review of that style of parenting. The high level of
conversation certainly demonstrates that they accomplished their mission.

See Jeff Yang's Great Review of the "True Story" behind the "Chinese Mother"
essay at [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-
bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/13/...](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-
bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/13/apop011311.DTL)

~~~
kenjackson
Yes, this rebuttal article is horrible. Somone with a PhD, presumably a
researcher, should have read the source material (Amy's book).

------
superuser2
I have a 3.95. I could've earned that .05 back by letting academics consume my
life, but I didn't. I was a terrible trumpet player (and hated the trumpet)
until I left band for choir in middle school, and I could have been a lot
better at it if I weren't busy teaching myself to program, rather than
practicing.

I have earned Cs on tests that fell during tech week (crunch time for school
theater the week before opening night, with build crew and rehearsals lasting
until 10pm).

What I propose (and what she proposes) is that there's nothing wrong with
that. Sacrificing my instrument and moving to choir taught me what is it
_enjoy_ making music. Those tests I bombed aren't pretty, but in the
performances the following weekend, I worked closely with a group of talented
people under incredible constraints and unpredictable circumstances to pull
off a smooth show, and it was both the greatest thrill and the greatest lesson
in teamwork I'd ever experienced.

I've no doubt that sufficient emotional and physical pain applied by a parent
could coerce any child to earn a 4.0 and to master an instrument, but that
kind of empty, forced skill is not something we should aspire to. Let people
do what they _love_. Even if it weren't for programming and respectable
grades, I could make a living with an IATSE card. They pay and the hours would
be terrible, but at least I would like what I do.

~~~
wallflower
You know, I know a really smart guy who went to a top school and now works for
D.E. Shaw. He really lit up when I talked to him briefly at a wedding and
asked if he was still getting to play his musical instrument. It turns out he
had done so - did music for a friend's low ambition, high excitement show. And
that really seemed to be more meaningful than the C++ code foo he did for D.E.
Shaw.

You will never regret jamming with friends. A test is just a blip.

~~~
superuser2
Yep. The thing for me was that trumpet was not anywhere near "jamming with
friends" the way choir is - I didn't like anyone in band, and after 45 minutes
of playing I'm winded and my brain is deprived of oxygen, whereas 45 minutes
of singing leave me feeling great. I don't think parents should let their kids
do nothing, but I do think kids should be allowed to experiment, and choose
for themselves what they stick with.

------
maxklein
You know, if you take a highly intelligent, well educated woman from the upper
middle class and marry her with a highly educated, intelligent man from the
upper middle class of the most developed country in the world, it would take a
bit of effort for the children to be failures. As in, they actually have to go
out of their way to fail at life.

I'd much prefer seeing the two systems applied to two disadvantaged children,
and see what works better.

------
mbubb
Anecdotal... Two parents with high IQs and academic professions have highly-
achieving children (although the only accomplishment I was actually impressed
with was the bronze medal in the Olympics...).

And the vaguely racist assumption that Asian students know their facts but
have no imagination:

<<<<<<<< When I ask the latter questions such as, “If you were going to
redesign programming language X, what would you do?”

They will tell me what X does in great detail but not answer the question.
American students are more likely to jump in with ideas about how to change X,
replete with statements like “X sucks because…” >>>>>>>>>

I went to school with the child of one of the original UNIX developers. He
submitted a word processed paper in grade school (late 70's). I can remember
him reading GEB in the back of Chemistry class. He has gone on to do wonderful
things - and I never saw evidence of the 'Chinese Mom' upbringing... He always
seemed to be a very balanced, healthy human being - doing what he wanted to
do.

Richard Feynman didn't have a Chinese mother either...

So we all have these anecdotes - what Chua is talking about is something
different. It is not merely anecdotal - it is why there is high unemployment
and at the same time tech companies in NYC starving for engineers.

Thee is a link for me in the 'Chinese mom' argument (not Chua's per se but the
tiger parenting her daughter pushes against) and Gladwell's Outlier's
argument.

Even if you are a genius it takes "10,000 hours" of hard work. Some people are
internally motivated enough to do it at a young age. Others need a 'Chinese
mom' to turn the TV off and go through the piano piece one more time...

------
stcredzero
_Making the kids play violin, of being an A student, all the discipline, all
of this? Why is she working her kids so hard? You know the answer: college.

She is raising future college students._

I would say to all of those who are encouraging their kids to play violin
merely for college application ammunition: People are only in college for 5
years. Much better to raise your children to be good people.

Would you rather raise your kid to have an active lifelong connection to
unconscious being, art, and the eternal, or would you rather raise them so
that they can put away their violin and have something to mention in passing
at cocktail parties for the rest of their lives?

This choice of short term/long term focus applies to many aspects of
education. It is the difference between merely raising a high status, suitably
socialized drone versus a human being of substance.

As to which Amy Chua has chosen, only she can know. Having listened to her on
interviews, I would say she claims the latter. I suspect that many who try to
emulate such true success are unknowlingly choosing the former.

Many startups make the same choice!

------
stretchwithme
Following your passion HAS to be better than following Mommy's socially-
determined passion. The latter is, most likely, not even right for the mom,
let alone the child.

But say we all became masters of the piano or violin. How could any of them
make a living at it with such an oversupply?

I also wonder if the mothers of those who brought China its Cultural
Revolution were of this superior variety.

------
wslh
I am waiting for the Jewish Mother article :-)

~~~
prakashk
Not sure if this the kind of "Jewish Mother" article you are looking for, but
here it is -
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870333350457608...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703333504576080422577800488.html?mod=WSJ_Books_LS_Books_2)
\-- written by a mother who happens to be Jewish.

------
lazyant
My job is to make my kids happy in the long term and I don't think playing
piano perfectly or having As in math holds any correlation with it (unless
that's what they like). I'd cut my left hand without a thought if that will
guarantee that my kids will lead average happy lives.

------
chsonnu
Her daughter Ronda Rousey is a 2008 Olympic bronze medalist in Judo, and is on
her way to becoming the next 145 lbs female MMA champion.

~~~
derwiki
More anecdotal "evidence" that doesn't seem to add any weight to the rebuttal,
except "well this way worked for me."

------
stalkerguy
Silly.

------
to
90% of the mothers in our country are superior. superior in buying hardcore
preprocessed food.

