

Ask HN:  Should high school gifted programs be banned? - amichail

Have you gone through such a program?  Do you regret it?<p>Sure it's nice to have smart peers, but putting a huge amount of effort into such a program is a huge waste of time that is better spent on startups.<p>Moreover, such programs increase the probability that you would pursue a career in academia, which generally leads to failure for the vast majority of people.<p>Even picking a university major is an issue when certain fields such as mathematics are considered more respectable than others such as CS in such programs.<p>Finally, the possibility of not even going to university is certainly not encouraged in such programs.
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spooneybarger
Number of wtf questions:

"putting a huge amount of effort into such a program is a huge waste of time
that is better spent on startups."

what startups would those be? tech startups? how about the gift kids who
couldn't care less about tech? maybe they just want to become authors? who
knows. startups?

"Moreover, such programs increase the probability that you would pursue a
career in academia, which generally leads to failure for the vast majority of
people."

define failure. failure to get into academia? misery at getting into academia?

"Even picking a university major is an issue when certain fields such as
mathematics are considered more respectable than others such as CS in such
programs."

what does a university major have to do with a gifted program in a high
school?

"Finally, the possibility of not even going to university is certainly not
encouraged in such programs."

other than vocational tech programs, where exactly is not going to university
encouraged?

\--

how about this, lets say you take away they gifted and talented program and
put them back in standard college prep course work. how many did you think
will get bored beyond belief by not being challenged? how well are they going
to do? shouldn't you teach to level of each individual student rather than as
a faceless homogenous mass?

~~~
amichail
_how about this, lets say you take away they gifted and talented program and
put them back in standard college prep course work. how many did you think
will get bored beyond belief by not being challenged? how well are they going
to do? shouldn't you teach to level of each individual student rather than as
a faceless homogenous mass?_

High school education -- gifted or not -- is mostly a waste of time. It's
better to limit it as much as possible and encourage students to try to make
money on their own.

~~~
timwiseman
_High school education -- gifted or not -- is mostly a waste of time...._

This depends on the high school and how the student approaches it. If a
student just tries to get through it, then they will with little effort and 0
learning. If on the other hand, they put some effort in, they really can learn
something from some of those classes, especially if they take AP classes.

More importantly, if they really put in effort into some of the semi-optional
projects they can do something really interesting. Some high schoolers have
done very impressive senior projects.

I do think that a smart person will spend considerable time on learning
outside of school though, I certainly wish I had done a lot more of that.

------
tokenadult
Another crazy question. The short answer is, no, I wouldn't want any kind of
specialized program DESIRED BY LEARNERS AND THEIR PARENTS to be banned, unless
there was irrefutable evidence that the program was actively harmful. (And if
we are going to ban something for being harmful, let's start by banning the
way that mathematics is taught in elementary school in most schools in the
United States.)

<http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf>

[http://www.aft.org/pubs-
reports/american_educator/fall99/ame...](http://www.aft.org/pubs-
reports/american_educator/fall99/amed1.pdf)

<http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/Skywalkertalk.pdf>

I know of some worthwhile secondary school gifted programs, such as the Thomas
Jefferson High School of Science and Technology

<http://www.tjhsst.edu/>

or the Montgomery Blair High School Science, Mathematics, Computer Science
Magnet

<http://www.mbhs.edu/departments/magnet/>

or the Davidson Academy of Nevada

<http://www.davidsonacademy.unr.edu/>

and those school programs serve the needs of some learners who don't find
their needs well met by conventional school programs. Some of the alumni of
the better secondary schools for gifted students end up being start-up
founders, and that is great.

I didn't go through any such program. I wish I would have. No such program
exists in my state, so I have sought a distance learning program

<http://epgy.stanford.edu/ohs/index.html>

for my oldest son, which has its own set of trade-offs. Like I did, I think he
will enjoy being off to college and nearer to more intellectual peers more of
the time.

~~~
amichail
_The short answer is, no, I wouldn't want any kind of specialized program
DESIRED BY LEARNERS AND THEIR PARENTS to be banned, unless there was
irrefutable evidence that the program was actively harmful. (And if we are
going to ban something for being harmful, let's start by banning the way that
mathematics is taught in elementary school in most schools in the United
States.)_

The harm done is that students are wasting a huge amount of time that they
could have spent on a startup. There is nothing better than being able to make
money on your own and gaining financial independence.

Brain power and energy decline with age after your mid-twenties. So pursuing a
startup later becomes more difficult.

~~~
tokenadult
Then your argument is actually against making schooling compulsory after the
age of fourteen or so.

~~~
amichail
Getting rid of compulsory education after the age of 14 or so would be great.
Gifted programs are a step in the wrong direction as they require even more
time from students than normal programs and encourage them to pursue a life
working for others.

~~~
tokenadult
_Getting rid of compulsory education after the age of 14 or so would be
great._

I'll agree with that policy proposal, but I would still fund provision of
voluntary-attendance schools for highly able learners after that age (as
indeed I do, by paying taxes that support universities).

------
TallGuyShort
>> Have you gone through such a program?

Yes

>> Do you regret it?

Very much so. My middle school was a small charter school, with about 60 kids
in each grade, and 2 classes going on at any one time. One day out of the blue
they announced that some students had been selected to participate in some
gifted classes. I was selected for all 3, and at first I felt honored. But
only 5 kids had been picked, and each gifted class had at most, 3 kids in it.
Obviously I was isolated from all my friends, and strongly disliked by all the
rest. I learnt nothing from the class (other than how to take a beating) and
would have to call it the most miserable year of my life.

edit: Oh, and the school also required that I complete all the homework from
my regular classes, even though I wasn't attending the class and doing
additional work. I think I failed most of that year. Real 'gifted'.

So all in all, I'd consider that particular program a failure, and I'd be
surprised if most other programs didn't have similar consequences. The school
neglected the fact that sociality is part of an education. I felt at a
disadvantage when I got to high school, and didn't know the kids my age any
more. They thought I was a weirdo, and I actually felt less prepared for some
classes than they did. I had missed a full year of social development.

~~~
dmix
Interesting, I got near perfect on some provincial exam in elementary school
and was about to go into a gifted course but fell short on the pre-screening
test.

I always regretted not having that opportunity because normal school always
bored me. Maybe it wasn't such a bad thing.

Also, I strong disagree that they shouldn't exist. Only that they not consist
of social isolation and 3 person class rooms.

------
srn
This is a troll, right?

FYI not everyone who's smart wants to do computer science or a startup.

I went to a gifted boarding school and it is my best educational experience so
far including college.

<http://lsmsa.edu/>

You have to apply to the school to get in. Yeah you didn't go if you don't
want to go to college. That's OK, then don't go.

I took java, numerical methods, operating systems, intro to graphics, visual
basic. And fencing. Unfortunately their CS class offerings are not as awesome
as before.

------
timwiseman
A properly handled honors/gifted/advanced high school course can be a great
benefit.

You seem to assume that those who would be in such a program want to start a
startup. Most people simply do not want to do that at all. Startup founders
are a very small percentage of the population, and while it is growing it is
likely to remain very small (and successful startup founders are a relatively
small percentage of startup founders at that....)

Even for those that do, few of them do or should have started work on the
startup during high school.

As to academia, there is certainly a correlation with people in those programs
and people that go into academia, but I think the causal connection is
relatively weak. And if they want to go into academia, that is not a bad
thing. It is not a path I would choose, but it is not bad for many.

As for your point about picking a major, I do not know about all programs, but
the one I was in certainly did not discriminate against any majors. Even if it
did, that would be a force easily resisted as soon as you left that program
and went into an actual college. And for that matter, many people change
majors at least once (went through 3).

As a whole, they are beneficial to their students.

~~~
amichail
_You seem to assume that those who would be in such a program want to start a
startup._

A large number of people would like to make money on their own. Just look at
the number of apps in the app store for example.

 _Even for those that do, few of them do or should have started work on the
startup during high school._

Why would you say that? The brain is sufficiently developed at that point to
create interesting products/services -- especially with gifted students.

~~~
timwiseman
_A large number of people would like to make money on their own. Just look at
the number of apps in the app store for example._ True, but putting out an app
or two or doing a little consulting on the side is a far cry from starting a
starting or being able to support yourself that way. I suspect that the number
of people who do support themselves without a traditional employer will grow,
but that will remain a small percentage (though slightly larger) for a very
long time if not forever.

 _Why would you say that? The brain is sufficiently developed at that point to
create interesting products/services -- especially with gifted students._

I agree, in fact I said something similar in my other response. But, again
that is a far cry from starting a start up. There are two main reasons I think
starting a startup during high school is a bad idea for most people: 1\. Your
inability to enter into a legally binding contract will limit your dealings
with investors or any type of customer that require an ongoing relationship.
2\. While I know some exceptions exist, most people have neither the technical
nor people skills to start a company as a teenager. Even those that will wind
up being mostly self taught require time to do it, and they simply have not
had it yet. Again, I know there are exceptions, but they are few.

After high school, those start to change. 1 changes instantly for legal
reasons when you hit 18. 2 falls on more of a bell curve, but it will
gradually start moving towards the tipping point sometime around then for a
lot of people.

------
Senethior459
amichail: You posted a link to this on AskReddit, but not a link to AskReddit
on this.

If anyone wants to read the responses over there:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/989zz/should_high...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/989zz/should_high_school_gifted_programs_be_banned/)

