
About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests - y2kenny
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-16/protests-swell-as-hong-kong-rejects-leader-s-compromise
======
pimmen
I live on the other side of the world, but this still strikes a deep chord
with me.

I'm Swedish, born and raised in Gothenburg. After the Umbrella protests in
2014 five people connected to the Causeway Bay Books store in Hong Kong
disappeared. One of them is a naturalized Swedish citizen, his daughter was
raised in my home town. He is now imprisoned and can't communicate with his
daughter, or with the Swedish authorities. Angela Gui, his daughter, is
continuing on the struggle for his release to the extent she can, being only
21 when her father disappeared.

All these arguments about "leave China be" or "this isn't the West's problem"
just don't make any sense to me. This is a small world, whether we like it or
not, and letting authoritarian stuff like this extradition treaty to a
dictatorship slide is condoning it and before you know it your citizenship,
constitutional rights and passport which you thought would keep you safe
doesn't work anymore and you get snatched from a street for something you've
said. Your family can only cry themselves to sleep over it from the feeling of
powerlessness.

We don't have to go into hypotheticals about what will happen if China gets
more power to persecute people of Hong Kong. In Sweden, we already know what
they've done with the limited power they hold now.

~~~
XuMiao
CCP does have a lot of room to improve in protecting human rights. But to be
fair, for the matter of national security, every country takes the extreme
measure. Look at the Assange case. Neither Swedish nor US government makes any
sense to me.

~~~
wyuenho
Assange will get a fair trial, does the PRC know what a fair trial is?

~~~
toyg
“Fair” is a big word. It will likely not be fully public, for a start.

China is undoubtedly the worst offender, when it comes to the right to a fair
trial; but let’s not pretend “our” countries cannot stack the deck when they
feel it’s necessary.

~~~
wyuenho
Whenever people bring up human rights abuses in China, that China is a
totalitarian country, there are always people bring up that democracy isn't
that much better, it's chaotic, there are special interests, there are ways to
abuse human rights in a democracy too etc.

Here's my take: people living in democratic societies have this powerful
weapon called free and fair election. Furthermore, independent judiciary and
the rule of law. All of their constitutions have some kind of bill of rights
built in, and the governments, by and large dare not cross the legal
boundaries or it's almost certain that there will be consequences. If these
checks and balances are not enough due to prosecutors stacking their deck with
heavily financed teams of lawyers, enacting or reviving controversial laws,
the civil societies are fully able to demand change, and action it during
elections. While we should not pretend that democracies are perfect, let's
also not pretend they are totally useless. Change can happen quickly if enough
people want it to. On the hand, China after Tiananmen, has expanded its state
power so much, its control of information so effective, its surveillance
system so encompassing, and its civil resistance so shattered, its policies
has bribed so many people, it's almost impossible to effect any substantial
change without a total collapse of the regime.

Saying or implying democracies are just as bad as totalitarian regimes like
the PRC risks spreading hopelessness that the people in democratic countries
cannot change things. So I hope the next time people bring up this comparison,
have some proportion, some perspectives in mind, and think about what they can
do to better their governments, instead of just conveniently dismissing the
value of democracies.

~~~
toyg
I completely agree. My aim was simply to point out that Assange's case is so
bad, that one really shouldn't use it as a point of superiority of this or
that system.

------
potatofarmer45
So my HK team had the week off to protest. Luckily I didn't get any calls at
2am to bail anyone out of jail.

This result- where the government backed down, was not expected by anyone.
Ever since the Beijing-picked government stared down the Umbrella Protests in
2014, it's been a death by a thousand cuts to Hong Kong's autonomy.

After talking to a friend who works for one of the pro-Beijing parties, it
turns out the biggest fear for the Chinese authorities wasn't related to HK at
all, but Taiwan. China has spent so much resources to promote friendly
candidates for office in Taiwan and this HK debacle has instead emboldened the
incumbent president of Taiwan, who is not at all friendly towards Beijing. In
fact, she won her party primary and is now well positioned for the elections
next year. As it turns out, as important as HK is, Taiwan is more important to
Beijing and anything that provides fodder for Taiwan's independence leaning
party is not allowed.

~~~
loyukfai
The damage is done. It will take quite some time for the opinions of the
Taiwanese people to change again, if ever.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
We’re used to Beijing thinking for the long term. When they rotated leaders,
this was largely true. With Xi as leader for life, however, the short-term
decision making and incompetent bureaucracies that characterises dictatorships
are beginning to emerge.

Hong Kong shouldn’t have been a problem. Most Hong Kongers, until recently,
identified as Chinese moreso than Hong Konger. The transition in 2047 would
have been uneventful.

Now, Hong Kong pissed off. Taiwan has seen the writing on the wall. China’s
multi-decade integration strategy must be rethought because Xi didn’t think he
could survive Hong Kongers criticising his leadership (including its
corruption).

~~~
trappist
This is the sort of thing predicted by Hans Hermann Hoppe's "Democracy: The
God that Failed", the basic premise of which is that short term leaders as
found in democracies will try to get as much as they can in the short time
they have, whereas lifetime leaders as in monarchies will treat the country
more like a property owner would his own property.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed)

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _short term leaders as found in democracies will try to get as much as they
> can in the short time they have, whereas lifetime leaders as in monarchies
> will treat the country more like a property owner would his own property_

The evidence shows the opposite. Political leaders (in any system) want to act
in the short term. Democracies simply constrain them.

No “lifetime leaders” are guaranteed a life term. They must continuously fight
for political survival. (And with that, often, actual survival.) Dictatorships
deploy, with limited constraint, their immortal nation’s power on mortal time
scales.

(Democracies’ rotation of leaders also allows for fixing mistakes. Dictators
are constrained in terms of backing away from bad decisions. They thus have a
bad habit of doubling down on stupid decisions.)

~~~
majewsky
> Dictators are constrained in terms of backing away from bad decisions. They
> thus have a bad habit of doubling down on stupid decisions.

I find this to match the behavior of the dominant parties in my country.

~~~
Retric
The difference is when one party doubles down on unpopular choices they become
more likely to be voted out of office. This is direct communication between
the populace and rulers.

In single party systems, dictatorships, etc leaders are frequently acting on
really bad information or simply don’t feel the need to back down. Thus, such
things tend to build up and compound over time.

------
taiwanboy
I am proud of our democratic cousins in Hong Kong; this is just the beginning.
Who knows what kind of country China will be in 2047, maybe there is hope for
democratic China or 50 more years of democratic Hong Kong, who knows.

As for Taiwan, Taiwanese people already identify themselves with being
Taiwanese. Nearly 80% of people polled identify themselves in fact, in recent
polls. Now we just need the older generations to slowly fade away (ones that
still watch China influenced news channels). The fact that president Tsai (who
is close to our US allies) won her party election recently and has a 10% lead
over her opposite party opponents (who are now distancing themselves from
China) give us great hope. Our independence is going to continue.

As for the naysayers that say China can simply invade, I beg to differ. China
was always going to have problems attacking a well fortified island. But an
old, broke China with no allies in the region attacking Taiwan with US backing
it is impossible. And as time goes on, Taiwan will eventually declare
independence and have the world support for it. That’s the future I am looking
forward to

~~~
29athrowaway
The PLA is not China's army, it is the Chinese communist party's army.

PLA training is 90% political indoctrination, 10% combat training.

They have garrisons in Hong Kong (edited).

Unless the Chinese communist party self-destructs, there's no foreseeable end
of communist rule in China.

The social credit system and online censors prevent people from criticizing
and opposing the government.

~~~
NotSammyHagar
I don't think they have garrisons in Taipei. Please explain what you mean?

~~~
29athrowaway
I meant garrisons in Hong Kong, facepalm.

------
ksec
I wish they could use the Official Figure as 2M and 1.

The 1 was tribute to the one died in protest of the bill [0]. R.I.P

And I don't think the photos aren't what 2M people in the City really looks
like. Here are few better ones.

And thank you everyone who supported us, even if you are not in HK, it is
still much appreciated.

[0] [https://time.com/5607742/hong-kong-protester-dies-anti-
extra...](https://time.com/5607742/hong-kong-protester-dies-anti-extradition/)

[1] [https://ibb.co/WtLMvCH](https://ibb.co/WtLMvCH)

[2] [https://ibb.co/BgQkb0S](https://ibb.co/BgQkb0S)

[3] [https://t.co/5NahUcGSKt](https://t.co/5NahUcGSKt)

~~~
phyzome
Your link [1] [https://ibb.co/WtLMvCH](https://ibb.co/WtLMvCH) is an altered
image. See how it is mirrored horizontally?

~~~
ksec
This is my bad! I have been spreading fake images! Sorry that was sent to me
via WhatsApp. ( But I can promise you the real thing would have look just as
stunning ) Keep your attention to the Dropbox Folder.

------
swjz
They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has
suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these
years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under
pressure.

~~~
manigandham
This is nothing but a temporary delay. It will still be passed soon enough.
Remember Hong Kong is on a 50 year countdown anyway so there’s always an
inevitable end coming.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
"The current social and economic systems in Hong Kong will remain unchanged,
and so will the life-style. Rights and freedoms, including those of the
person, of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of travel, of
movement, of correspondence, of strike, of choice of occupation, of academic
research and of religious belief will be ensured by law in the Hong Kong
Special Administrative Region. Private property, ownership of enterprises,
legitimate right of inheritance and foreign investment will be protected by
law."

[http://www.gov.cn/english/2007-06/14/content_649468.htm](http://www.gov.cn/english/2007-06/14/content_649468.htm)

China needs the West and it is politically unsavvy for China to renege on the
rights granted before 2047. However, the British Foreign Office announced that
Chinese officials now treat the Joint Declaration as "void".

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-
British_Joint_Declaration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-
British_Joint_Declaration)

------
chaz6
I strongly believe that the people of Hong Kong should have the right to self-
determinism. There is nobody alive who has lived under Chinese rule in Hong
Kong. For reference, I am British. I hope that someday Hong Kong can be
recognized as a country in its own right.

~~~
echaozh
Why is Northern Ireland still part of Britain?

~~~
anothermouse
Mostly because the majority of people living there wish to be remain part of
the United Kingdom.

------
hellofunk
That's incredible. That's about one or two people from every household
participating. Democracy FTW.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
> Democracy

Is it though? Or... Something closer to communism with a democracy wrapper
over it.

The part I find most confusing is that Hong Kong believed China's word on
separate laws separate courts. That was going to be the case until it wasn't
convenient, which I suppose is now.

China didn't keep their word you say!? Whaa!?

~~~
ajdlinux
> Hong Kong believed China's word on separate laws separate courts

Plenty of Hong Kongers left before 1997 for this exact reason.

It wasn't a question about whether Hong Kong believed China's assurances -
that decision was made in London, not Hong Kong.

------
switch007
2M is ~27% of its population. Mind blowing if 2M is roughly correct.

------
kovek
Is that around 2/7th of the population? What are some alternative systems to
make the people have a stronger impact?

~~~
briandear
2/7th is huge. The Bolsheviks had a tiny, tiny percentage of the population
and they took over Russia. Also 2/7 participation doesn’t mean 2/7th support.
A lot of people might support the movement but are unwilling for various
reasons to take to the streets. 2/7 is historic and huge.

~~~
loyukfai
The other 5/7 may watch TVB - a HK TV channel of which to many people is their
_only_ news source, and which has since been bought by mainlanders, just like
many other media and publishing assets in HK - and believe in something
totally else.

No joke, if you watch only TVB news, you will think the HK government is doing
a great job and these protesters are arrogant, dis-obedient trouble-makers.

The gap in understanding can be really really big.

~~~
RaceWon
> No joke, if you watch only TVB news, you will think the HK government is
> doing a great job

I get that: we have the same thing here in the USA with many newspapers and
some TV stations. Heck, because of this, some people actually believe
President Trump is a Russian Agent, you know, despite the fact that he is one
of the great capitalists of all time, and he never ran for Any elected office
until he won the Presidency--a feat which was all but impossible... still they
think Putin made that happen, because that is what they are told.

~~~
RaceWon
I stand corrected: I said > "and he never ran for Any elected office until he
won the Presidency"

Technically he did run in 2000, I apologize for the inaccuracy; however it was
more akin to dipping one's toe into the shark infested waters of big time
politics than a full on assault.

I still feel he accomplished the impossible; like Marquez does in MotoGP, or
Senna did in F1--people like that are Rare indeed, and I respect the hell out
of that ability, and you trifle with them at your own risk.

------
hker
[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/) has
lots of videos of the events today, for those who want more than static
photos.

~~~
canada_dry
Good timeline with pics here:

[https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-
kong/politics/article/3014695...](https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-
kong/politics/article/3014695/sea-black-hong-kong-will-march-against-
suspended)

------
eqing
People at both sides think they are legit.

An average HKer: I don't trust China's Justice system, which is heavily
influenced by their government. I could be sent to China for made-up crime.

An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition
treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical
law by british). Imagine the same case for Hawaii and US Mainland.

~~~
cdmckay
Also, China has explicitly stated that want HK and Macau to join the same
system as the rest of China.

It’s just a matter of time.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _It’s just a matter of time_

Well, yes. The handover is explicit in 2047. This whole mess was an avoidable
miscalculation prioritising Xi’s short-term political interests over China’s
long-term strategic wellbeing.

------
geophile
How is it they are not fucked? No country that wants to continue to do
business with China is going to back this uprising. Is there an imaginible
sequence of events that doesn't result in either capitulation or a violent
crushing of dissent?

~~~
dharmab
They're actually succeeding- the government has backed down and apologized.
The protests are pushing on for the resignation of the Chief Executive.

Keep in mind this new extradition law also applied to foreign, non-HK/CN
citizens visiting Hong Kong legally. Companies operating in HK _really_ did
not want this bill, either,

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
I don't think we can conclude the long-term intent from backing down now. It
could be simply kicking the can down the road. Beijing might just be waiting
to try this later. The longer they wait, though, the riskier it gets to push
the Socialist system onto Hong Kong. It seems more and more citizens are
willing to defend Democracy than has been the case in Hong Kong's past. If the
numbers are correct, this is more protestors than the Umbrella movement.

------
peter303
Justa matter of time before Beijing use Tiananmen force to quell these
protesters. Done so multiple other places like Xinjiang and Xizang.

------
40acres
I thought Xi was smarter than this. Between this and his inability to end
tarriff escalation with Trump, Xi is looking vulnerable on foreign policy.

------
techsin101
Doesn't USA have same extradition treaty with most countries and under Patriot
act anyone can be extradited without due process from any of this nations

------
yumraj
Hopefully the common folks in mainland China are watching, and is not
censored, and take inspiration from HK folks in marching and fighting for
their human rights.

~~~
hker
To give due credits, the Hong Kong people put great effort to ensure that the
protests--both the Umbrella protest in 2014 and the anti-extradition protest
in 2019--are peaceful, largely because they don't want to turn Victorial Park
into another Tiananmen Square--there are 6000 PLA troops stationed in Hong
Kong, and they will come out once the Hong Kong police loses control of the
situation.

Hong Kong people learned from mainland China first. I do hope that one day
mainland China could learn back, when the time calls for it.

Okay, as for the bit on cleaning trashes [1], we don't learn it from China, we
learn it from Japan (for example [2]). Well, we all have something to learn
from each other.

[1]:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c18ybh/protester_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c18ybh/protester_is_cleaning_and_clearing_the_rubbish/)

[2]: [https://nextshark.com/japanese-world-cup-fans-clean-
stadium-...](https://nextshark.com/japanese-world-cup-fans-clean-stadium-
winning-colombia/)

~~~
confusedhnguy
While I agree with your other words, is the last paragraph really necessary?
If you want us mainlanders to trust you, it is advisable to not praise Japan
when it is not directly related to the conversation.

Mainlanders are also perfectly capable of doing it, although we are not doing
as good as we can.

[https://www.chinasmack.com/chinese-football-fans-pick-up-
tra...](https://www.chinasmack.com/chinese-football-fans-pick-up-trash-
copying-japans-example)

Downvote me all you want, I still support your democratic movements. But if
you truly want mainlander to hear your voice, talking about how good Japan is
is counterproductive.

If you want to make friends with the victims, it is not a good idea to talk
about how morally superior the criminals are. Please explain why are you down-
voting this. I changed my mind seeing your previous posts, and I may change
again if you can point out my mistake.

~~~
hker
Thank you for your honest reply, I just upvoted you.

> While I agree with your other words, is the last paragraph really necessary?
> If you want us mainlanders to trust you, it is advisable to not praise Japan
> when it is not directly related to the conversation.

I agree that the last paragraph is not necessary. But I did learn something
from your reply to my last paragraph.

I personally separate the Japanese people we see nowadays from the wartime
Japan under militarism, and I think this sentiment is popular among the recent
generations in Hong Kong (and perhaps in Europe and US, etc). Older
generations in Hong Kong, who experienced the Japanese occupation, think
differently, understandably.

So to a Hong Konger like me, praising Japan does not have any strings of
nationalism attached. It is like praising the spice in Thai food (and this is
_irrelevant_ to whether we like Chinese food, or China). And that's why I am
being over-insenstive here, and I could have done better.

Likewise, most of Hong Kong people could separate mainland people from CCP.

> Mainlanders are also perfectly capable of doing it, although we are not
> doing as good as we can.

> [https://www.chinasmack.com/chinese-football-fans-pick-up-
> tra...](https://www.chinasmack.com/chinese-football-fans-pick-up-trash-
> copying-japans-example)

Thanks for letting me know something I was not aware of, and I sincerely
praise those mainlanders for their effort. Keep up with the good work.

As your linked article also suggests, Japan is leading the world in cleaning
after themselves, that's why I gave credit to them.

And back to the protest, I mention that Hong Kong people are cleaning trashes
in protest [1], because I disagree with the "riot" charge by the government
[2], which could result in a maximum term of ten years.

[1]:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c18ybh/protester_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c18ybh/protester_is_cleaning_and_clearing_the_rubbish/)

[2]: [https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/13/hong-kong-
protesters-c...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/13/hong-kong-protesters-
charged-rioting-hospital-visit/)

~~~
confusedhnguy
> separate the Japanese people we see nowadays from the wartime Japan under
> militarism

Yes, this is the sane choice. Unfortunately we both know that bad news draw
more attention from the general public. Just like many mainlanders still
remember vividly that (a small fraction of) HKers called them as locusts, when
some Japanese say something bad about China, it gets spread much much faster
than other news and stays in the memory for a long time. I was merely stating
the fact that it is not a good idea to praise Japan in a conversation in
general unless necessary, given the current state of our media. But still,
their officials need to stop visiting the Shrine, or the names of the war
criminals need to be removed.

> "riot" charge by the government

Usual CCP bs. My stand on this is that: HK is the best candidate for
advocating changes to the CCP, if you can succeed before 2047 then we really
own you a big favor. But HK should also remember that this is our internal
affair, no foreign organization should interfere. The West can be used as
extra pairs of eyes to keep the CCP checked so it doesn't repeat the disaster
happened in Tiananmen square, but that's it. I hope you can understand why we
don't trust the West, after we have witnessed the events happened elsewhere.

~~~
hker
> I was merely stating the fact that it is not a good idea to praise Japan in
> a conversation in general unless necessary, given the current state of our
> media.

Agreed, and points taken. Thanks.

> My stand on this is that: HK is the best candidate for advocating changes to
> the CCP, if you can succeed before 2047 then we really own you a big favor.
> But HK should also remember that this is our internal affair, no foreign
> organization should interfere. The West can be used as extra pairs of eyes
> to keep the CCP checked so it doesn't repeat the disaster happened in
> Tiananmen square, but that's it. I hope you can understand why we don't
> trust the West, after we have witnessed the events happened elsewhere.

That's reasonable. Thanks for voicing out your main concern: that China may
lose control to foreign organization, hence CCP should stay unless absolutely
unbearable. I think I understand more how mainlanders think now.

~~~
confusedhnguy
Please allow me to add more details.

I have spent 9 years in the US. When I first came here, I was fed up with
CCP's bs and thought the US and its system is the best. But now I have come to
the conclusion that it is just as evil as the CCP, but in different ways. I
think so because I have witnessed first hand about how insulting the Chinese
is still acceptable [0] even in the PC culture (ppl still ask me if I eat
dogs), how biased the mainstream media are, and how the democratic system here
is full of flaws. More and more mainlanders are sharing my view, for better or
for worse.

Also, it's not just "lose control to foreign organization". Based on the above
reasons, we believe that the West is hostile towards Asia and will do
everything to prevent any country in that area from growing up and challenge
them. The US supports Korea, Japan and Taiwan just so it can put pressure on
China, instead of actually caring about their people. Look, the HN crowd are
still down-voting my post that complains about you mentioning Japan and I
still can't think of why.

Yes, I understand that rights can only be obtained by earning instead of
begging, and the Chinese-American community did a poor job to defend their
rights. But until we have a memorial day for [1], I do not believe the
Westerners care about our well-being at all.

As for your protest, this image of the flyer in [2] was circulating privately
on our social media, and I have to say that one of the bullet points is really
questionable, namely, collective punishment (do you have proof of this?). Even
if all the other ones are true to some extent, this one is going to hurt your
credibility a lot and push people away from you.

I am going to take a risk by quoting Chairman Mao's words:
政治就是，把支持我们的人搞的多多的，把反对我们的人搞得少少的！The number of people in the mainland who
doesn't like CCP's actions is probably larger than you realized, but these
people, by their nature, dislike liars in general. If HK want to win their
support, then it really should make sure that their flyers/slogans are
flawless and based on facts, and do not smell like the typical Western
propaganda. I know this is putting the burden on you but hey this is not an
easy task to begin with.

Keep up the good work!

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFxOsUe0I8o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFxOsUe0I8o)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chinese_Americans#T...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chinese_Americans#Transcontinental_railroad)

[2]
[https://twitter.com/liuyun2018/status/1133227121713659904](https://twitter.com/liuyun2018/status/1133227121713659904)

Edit: Let me add more materials that supports my view that the US doesn't care
about us at all [3], and how they provided continuous support to Chiang Kai-
shek even if he did [4] and [5]. I am from Henan so you can imagine why do I
think this is just as bad as what the CCP did, and how angry I am when almost
no Westerners talks about these when they talk about the KMT.

[3]
[https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6ygpo0/i_was...](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6ygpo0/i_was_taught_that_general_macarthur_wanted_to/)

[4]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Yellow_River_flood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Yellow_River_flood)

[5]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Changsha_fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Changsha_fire)

~~~
spookieboogie
FYI, this conversation is very productive and contributes to the greater
conversation in a positive way. Thank you for bringing in a unique viewpoint.
I hope we all can work better towards the future.

> I think so because I have witnessed first hand about how insulting the
> Chinese is still acceptable [0] even in the PC culture (ppl still ask me if
> I eat dogs), how biased the mainstream media are, and how the democratic
> system here is full of flaws.

I have seen this as well, HATE it, and I've had to chew people out on it
before. But it's something bigger than just one person trying to be mindful, I
think.

There is the normal amount of it that is in jest, as with any other group of
people, but for some reason, treating Asia like the butt of your jokes almost
NEVER seems to be taken with any sort of seriousness at all. For example, a
normal, sane westerner wouldn't go out saying 'Black people eat nothing but
watermelon,' without complete irony, but for a much longer time, it was
completely reasonable to make similar jokes, even more vulgar jokes towards
people from Asia. Only recently have people started thinking 'Oh, maybe this
is a bad idea, too.'

The media... Yeah. The media is dreadful. But it's a growing sentiment in the
west that the media is useless and does extraordinarily more harm than good
(being a shame since it's so ingrained in everything)

> Look, the HN crowd are still down-voting my post that complains about you
> mentioning Japan and I still can't think of why

Just for a western perspective, there may be a few reasons this is happening

* People in the west LOVE Japan. Obviously we'll look at the entire country with rose tinted goggles, and anything they've done to the west we've done back to them tenfold. So as a rule, Japan tends to get a MUCH bigger free pass on just about everything. Doubly so because their culture is so prevalent in the west. My initial thought, without actually reading into what you were saying was: "Japan is terrible. China is better." Obviously that's not what you said at all, but it's STILL my first gut reaction (the next thought was instinctively 'maybe some nuance was lost between languages?' Which is also a very unhelpful sentiment, but it remains my initial reactions)

* There's been a LOT of anti-Asia, especially Chinese, sentiment lately. I'm not exactly sure what's going on, if there's some sort of propaganda push or people are literally just echoing the political climate, but especially on Hacker News, it has been almost unusable due to how toxic it is lately. Again, I try to see beyond what I'm seeing/hearing, but even for me it's hard to not get swept up at times. So ANYTHING pro Chinese is bound to be at least met with skepticism at best.

* People unfortunately, and incorrectly treat the 'flag' button as a 'dislike/I don't like this' button. I think Reddit unfortunately normalized this as a trend.

> we believe that the West is hostile towards Asia and will do everything to
> prevent any country in that area from growing up and challenge them

I may not be as well researched into this as someone who's actually on the
receiving end, and I am on the younger side, but from the perspective I know,
Russia, China, and the US were always on equal footing and were constantly
trying to do similar things like this to each other. I would be interested in
hearing more about this from a different viewpoint, however.

~~~
confusedhnguy
Thank you for your kind words, it really warms my heart.

Yes, recently there has been an abnormally high amount of news about China on
HN and I find most of the comments questionable to say the least. I was so
pissed and registered this account to post some comments that are also
questionable, so I really should calm down and contribute something that
actually helps.

Speaking of the Japanese culture, I must admit that I envy them for how well
it is preserved and developed with time. I totally understand why you find
it's beautiful and think it represents the good things in the Far East. Our
problem is that the Japanese government treat us like they defeated us during
WWII because now they are the ally of the allies, which makes us super upset.

Yes all our governments suck, but from our perspective, the US has actively
caused much much more trouble around the world than China. And we are
genuinely concerned about what's going to happen next because of mentality
shown by words like [0] (sorry if the link is pay-walled).

[0]
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/04/because-c...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/04/because-
china-isnt-caucasian-us-is-planning-clash-civilizations-that-could-be-
dangerous/)

~~~
spookieboogie
The more people having constructive conversations, the better. If at least to
attempt to drown out the toxicity. But, if we never succeed, well, at least we
made the effort.

The general west hears very little about Japanese government as a rule. So I
don't have any reason to believe or disbelieve you. All we get are the
culture's good bits, but maybe never see the underbelly. Maybe we'll hear
something if there's a controversy, or about the new emperor since it was a
novelty, but that's it. So that's very interesting to hear about Chinese-
Japanese relations.

Funny enough, if you just skim this article, it seems to prop up Japan as a
underdog model state. Reading into it a bit more has more detail, but I know
at least several people who just read the bullet points of articles like this,
and walk away with whatever they got. I wonder if this is a contribution to
the push, but it might be that this is what is in the news right now, and this
is what politicians in the west are talking about. (Or at least what the media
is reporting)

I think the thing to watch for is next year's US elections. The two parties in
the US are somewhat similar on a global scale, but the differences that do
exist between them are really important for these relations, and has the
potential to improve things, rather than continuing to polarize them. Either
way, the US was divided almost in half by population last election, (the
majority didn't even vote for the Republican offices, but that's not how the
election system works,) so it seems at least say that there is a large number
of people that do not hold the same opinions as their government.

~~~
confusedhnguy
There is no Chinese-Japanese relation, because you cannot leave the US out of
the discussion, not after WWII. In fact, what the Japanese think about us is
pretty much irrelevant because pro-China [0] government officials die before
they can actually do something, at relatively the same time [1] [2].

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan%E2%80%93So...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan%E2%80%93South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinichi_Nishimiya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinichi_Nishimiya)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadahiro_Matsushita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadahiro_Matsushita)

------
ddingus
It will be rough. China is unlikely to rest.

~~~
loyukfai
Yes, but she's probably too occupied at the moment to kick another honest's
nest.

Also, HK can be a valve for the Chinese economy if the trade war continues to
deteriorate.

The majority of the Chinese people have no idea what's happening in HK anyway,
so it's not like HK will lead to troubles in other Chinese cities by itself,
at least not in the short-term. So it is IMO wise for the Chinese government
to leave HK alone for the time being.

------
djsumdog
It's so silly Hong Kong is on its way back to China. I hope there is some
future in them being an independent nation.

------
dymk
Every article I see about the HK protests makes sure to focus on how non-
violent the gathering was. I see many people framing that non-violence as a
better way to affect change in their government.

I sincerely hope that a non-violent protest gets these people the change they
want, but I take real issue in framing violent protests as unnecessary when
your historically oppressive government refuses to listen to the will of its
people.

~~~
briandear
Violent protests brings out the tanks and people start dying literally in the
streets. Unless you are talking about actual revolution, violent protest
accomplishes nothing and results in losing the moral high ground which is
critical if one is to have international support. Violent protest in Hong Kong
would result in Beijing sending in soldiers to suppress the rebellion under
the guise of “public safety.” You get martial law and its justified (using
their calculus) as protecting people from harm from the violent protesters.
Violent protest in China would result in thousands dead and Beijing
accelerating the 2047 expiration of the two systems, one country agreement.
Bad idea.

~~~
dymk
So if Beijing is just going to send military force if they perceive something
that will truly threaten change in HK, but they did not send anything, what
does that tell you about the probable outcome of these non-violent protests?

I think the protestors are fighting the good fight, but I'm not holding my
breath that anything will actually come about because 2 million people stood
in the street.

~~~
javagram
Violent protest that is not “actual revolution” doesn’t bring change. It just
leads to fighting in the streets as the parent said.

compare the violent protests that ignited the Syrian civil war (actual
revolution) to the violent protests that resulted in no actual revolution
(Rodney King riots, yellow vests in France, etc) to consider the difference, I
think.

~~~
baybal2
There is little distinction. One leads to another.

If you can dig news in well, you know that Syria began with some bakers
protesting flour price hike and them roughing up some policemen.

A lot of revolutions stared with public disturbance events which had only
tangential relation to political context, with Russian revolution being the
best known example

------
guilhas
Some notes

* French yellow vests are ignored week after week. This is all over the place.

* HK already has extradiction with the USA.

* USA debacle demanding a journalist extradition to prosecute.

* Protesters posters are in english.

* Mainstream narrative, small HK will be successful independent. UK brexit will be terrible because it will be a insignificant country.

~~~
elefanten
This is a very solid round-up of what faceless accounts have been spamming all
over Twitter since this story emerged.

These arguments are weak enough to strain credulity. Almost all of them can be
answered by saying "the context is very different"

1\. Yellow Vests - no overlap in what is being protested. Dissatisfaction with
policy vs dissatisfaction with fundamental political rights = very different
context.

2\. Extradition with rule of law abiding country that isn't explicitly trying
to silence _your_ dissidents = very different context.

3\. Assange situation is complex and one-off, and the charges are more
complicated than just reporting on stuff. It is also being openly discussed,
scrutinized and will be prosecuted openly in a legal system. What _routinely_
happens with dissidents and party critics extradited to China is very
different.

4\. HK was under British rule for a long time and there is a large English-
speaking base.

5\. Narrative about HK has to do with categorically different political /
economic freedoms than the mainland. There's subtlety beyond a comparison like
"what will be the bigger GDP"

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
The "Assange situation" is not complex, and it's not one-off. He published
numerous secret documents that were deeply embarrassing to the governments of
the United States, United Kingdom, and many other countries. He is being
targeted for entirely political reasons, and the cooperation of the British
and Ecuadorian authorities is likewise politically motivated. In the case of
Britain, the motivation is twofold. Assange released documents about the UK
government's actions, and the government wants to maintain good relations with
the United States. In the case of Ecuador, the motivation is better relations
with the United States and access to IMF loans.

The persecution of Assange is not one-off, because it sets a precedent for
future prosecution of journalists in the United States, and it establishes
that journalists are in danger in any country that has an extradition
agreement with the United States.

Given all the concern about the Hong Kong extradition law being used to target
critics of the Chinese government, I would expect the same people who oppose
the HK law to also vigorously defend Julian Assange against extradition to the
United States for political crimes.

~~~
guilhas
Also after the recent Assange developments, there was the Australia ABC raid
after another journalist/leaker, with a warrant to “view/change/delete”
anything in the station. And 2 more journalists arrested in France, covering
the yellow vests, possibly not “correctly”.

------
tmp2846
It’s a bit sad feeling like this level of participation would never happen in
the US. I’m not sure what the reason is, but likely a mix of being a highly
individualistic society, apathy, distraction.

~~~
booleandilemma
What do you expect us to rally for? Genderless bathrooms?

~~~
laydn
How about : "how come we have more than 500.000 people file for bankruptcy
every year, due to medical bills?"

~~~
gbear605
That’s bad. It’s not nearly as bad as “my way of life and the way of life for
all my friends and family is completely at risk”

