
Apology after Japanese train departs 20 seconds early - gridscomputing
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-asia-42009839
======
mschuster91
How does the Japanese system live with the stuff that plagues Western
transportation systems?

For example in Munich there is nearly every day one or more huuuge delays due
to:

\- people on the track (sprayers, drunkards, people whose phone fell down)

\- animals on the track, ranging from stray dogs over wolves to deer - and in
some cases, entire herds of sheep... one caused an ICE to derail and destroy a
huge amount of tunnel track in the progress once.

\- suicides (1.000 suicides in Germany per year, and that's only the
successful ones)

\- accidents on street crossings (okay, that's eliminated on the highspeed
tracks, but regional traffic and metro rails suffer often enough)

\- kids letting balloons loose in the underground sections, where they shorten
out the power line, sometimes causing major destruction - and occasionally
it's a bird that does the same and ends up grilled

\- absolute morons who do not make room for people trying to exit the train

\- people with disabilities (wheelchair users, but also old people who simply
have problems moving!), who sometimes need to be attended by the conductor,
e.g. to put out a ramp

\- technical breakdowns

However, in Japan this seems to be nearly unheard of.

~~~
razakel
IIRC the relatives of people who commit suicide on Japanese railways are
charged for the disruption caused.

~~~
lomnakkus
This is one of those things that I heard on QI[1] that _seems_ really
plausible -- thus I did not fact check it -- but I'm not sure if it's just
because of my Western cultural bias and prejudices.

Is it well attested/documented?

[1] Which, I think, should mostly be considered "entertainment" rather than
particularly correct, though I do believe that they actually do strive for
correctness. It's more that it has turned into a sort of "twist the words"
game -- which is a shame.[2]

[2] It seems to have gained a little bit of a second wind with Toksvig in the
current season -- as a sort of a more chat-about-random-things-prompted-by-
question-X type thing. Which is nice. (Disclaimer: Only 2 episodes in.)

~~~
razakel
I found this Irish Times article:

[https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/families-fined-for-
su...](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/families-fined-for-suicides-in-
japan-1.1104002)

as well as this 88-page study:

[http://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?art...](http://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=anth_honors)

Apparently the fee is usually around $2 million.

~~~
lomnakkus
$2 million. Wow.

I guess that _would_ discourage anyone who's desparate enough to commit
suicide (and still cares about their family) to look for other methods.

I'm not quite sure why, but I somehow find it very strange that a railway
company[1] can administer a "fine" to people that may never even have
interacted with it. Am I alone in this?

[1] Are they private entities in Japan?

~~~
rootsudo
2 Million yen, about $10-14,000 depending on exchange rate.

------
hyperion2010
When I took the train from Narita into Tokyo the train would sit at stations
for often 5 minutes and leave exactly when scheduled. Well over half the
boarding passengers arrived in the last 30 seconds. Leaving 20 seconds early
is a HUGE screw up in a system like that.

~~~
xbzbanna
Fascinating. Are the passengers walking to the station and know exactly how
long the walk takes? Or is it some closely timed transfer from another source?

~~~
sho
> some closely timed transfer from another source

Often when different lines meet the tracks are organised such that the trains
pull up together on either side of a platform: a so-called cross-platform
interchange[1]. The passengers on either train then have 30 seconds or so to
board the other train if they wish to change. Obviously this has to be
precisely timed - if one train is late or the other departs early, the
transfer can't take place.

It really is an amazing system, a wonder of the world. There's one part of the
yamanote line that runs parallel to the keihin-touhoku line. In this section,
the K-T line acts as an express, whereas the yamanote generally stops all
stations. So as the lines meet, you'll have a bunch of people get off the
yamanote onto the "express" keihin-touhoko - they arrive synchronously, then
the keihin speeds past a few slow poke yamanotes, before arriving _in sync
again_ with a yamanote a few trains ahead of the original one, so people can
switch back before the keihin diverges and goes off on its route. It's
unbelievable, choreographed like a steel ballet. The best train system in the
world bar none.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-
platform_interchange#Tok...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-
platform_interchange#Tokyo)

~~~
phinnaeus
Are the trains all automated or manually run? Or some mix of the two?

~~~
kevmo314
It's not fully automated. The drivers are very disciplined
([https://youtu.be/xzkU6tmdImY?t=639](https://youtu.be/xzkU6tmdImY?t=639))
although I don't know to what extent they have automation helping them.

~~~
oliv__
Wow that's fascinating. Thanks for sharing!

------
socrates1998
The train guys all compete with each other in Japan to be as close as possible
to exactly arriving and leaving at the scheduled time.

You will often have a train/subway stop before it gets to the platform, just a
200 or 300 or so meters away, then start again.

I heard this was so that they would arrive at exactly the time they were
supposed to arrive.

It's one of the things I miss most about Japan, a simply amazing dedication to
their craft.

~~~
gpvos
Well, that's nonsense: if you just arrive early and stand longer at the
platform, everyone wins.

~~~
innocentoldguy
@gpvos - That doesn't always work. Sometimes a train will arrive early, but
another train is scheduled to arrive before them, so they have to wait until
the other train arrives and departs before they can enter the station, or
they'll screw everything up. The train system in Japan isn't a single-line
system, like the ones that exist in many cities. It is extremely complex, with
express trains and trains that stop at every station all using the same
platforms. The arrivals and departures have to be precise for the whole system
to work.

~~~
gpvos
Well yeah, I'm assuming the platform is free. Otherwise the train has to wait,
obviously; that's the way it works in most places.

------
bitL
Progression:

In Japan, people are nervous if a train departs early/late by 30 seconds.

In Switzerland, people are nervous when a train is 2 minutes late.

In Germany, people are nervous when a train is 10 minutes late (unless you are
passing through Frankfurt, where you can expect 30 minutes)

In Italy, people are happy a train shows up (hello Naples).

~~~
gruturo
To be honest, a train leaving early is a _lot_ worse than leaving late. It
means you show up at the right time, and you lose it - not cool at all.

~~~
dingaling
Yes, by some quirk of fate I used to do navigation prompting for bus timed-
course competitions; professional drivers on an unfamiliar route with a
precise schedule to achieve. I'd shout-out current location, upcoming hazards
and traffic controls, distance and time to next stop etc

They'd be penalised ( say ) 2 points for each late arrival but 8 for early
arrival, and the same for being seen to stop ahead of the specified location.

I only did it for a couple of years but it was very interesting to watch the
pros and made me appreciate the difficulties of maintaining schedules.

------
gpvos
In the Netherlands, several years ago they changed the rule for closing the
doors: the rule used to be that (if the train is on time, which is actually
the case about 90% of the time here) the train doors didn't close before
departure time, so what happened was that the whistle was blown just before
the departure minute and the doors started to close at the top of the minute
or a few seconds after it. Now the rule is that the train should depart at the
top of the minute, so everything is shifted about 10 to 15 seconds earlier. A
change that really has no benefit for anyone. But I wonder what the rule for
this is in other countries?

~~~
hanoz
In my part of the UK the system is that the guard closes every door except the
one he's leaning out of, typically around 5 to 10 minutes after the scheduled
departure time. Someone then looms in to view at the other end of the platform
upon whom the guard takes pity but inexplicably refuses to open the other
doors and the passenger is compelled to run the entire length of the train to
board at the guard's door.

~~~
gpvos
Minutes or seconds? I'm talking about the case where the train is basically on
time. Although from what I've heard, people in the UK don't have much
experience with that... (j/k)

~~~
Symbiote
Seconds. Intercity trains might close the doors 30 seconds before departure,
or 60 in some cases (like the starting station if it's a major one).
Otherwise, 15 seconds is about normal, with one final door closed by the guard
immediately before departure.

> Although from what I've heard

Don't believe everything you hear. After drinking tea, moaning is Britain's
favourite pasttime.

Railways in Britain are very similar to the Netherlands:

[https://www.bcg.com/publications/2017/transportation-
travel-...](https://www.bcg.com/publications/2017/transportation-travel-
tourism-2017-european-railway-performance-index.aspx)

------
swampthinker
One thing I want to point out is that if I am reading the reports correctly,
the JR system is actually a very profitable corporation.

What would it take to get a profitable train system in the US?

~~~
kalleboo
Massive population density increases.

JR also has a decent income from real estate. Train stations are in prime
locations, and have a lot of foot traffic, so they build malls around them.

~~~
ruddct
I suspect it's more of a cultural/political problem than a density problem.
NYC has a considerably higher population density than Tokyo and has an
abysmally expensive/inefficient rail system.

American public transportation systems, even here in the densest part of the
country, are easy political whipping boys. Blame whatever you'd like (cars,
highways, unions, politicians, etc), it appears that Americans don't care too
much about fixing their transportation infrastructure if those fixes don't
involve cars.

~~~
GolDDranks
> NYC has a considerably higher population density than Tokyo

It's the other way around, Tokyo has higher population density:

New York City: Land area: 784 km2 Population density: 10,431 ppl / km2

The Special Wards of Tokyo: Land area: 619 km2 Population density: 15,146 ppl
/ km2

~~~
luckyt
This comparison seems a bit unfair -- the special wards are the most densely
populated parts of Tokyo. You should compare either New York City <-> Tokyo
Metro Area, or Special Wards of Tokyo <-> Manhattan.

~~~
timr
_" This comparison seems a bit unfair"_

It's not just unfair, it's completely absurd. Tokyo sprawls like crazy, and a
big percentage of the population lives in the outer wards. The special wards
are high density, but expensive.

As soon as you go outside of the Yamanote line, the population density of
Tokyo falls dramatically (probably to Brooklyn levels). Take the train 10-15
minutes outside of _that_ , and you find lots of detached houses and open
land. Yet it's all "Tokyo", and this land area is counted when you see the
huge population of the city referenced online.

Tokyo has become a fantasy for people in America who think that urban density
solves all problems. Most of these people have not ventured outside of the
tourist regions of the city.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
To be fair, NYC technically includes Long Island. It isn’t obvious how to
compare the two cities at all.

~~~
gowld
Only a small part of Long Island. Are you thinking of Staten Island?

------
jdlyga
Japan is adorable. In New York, we're grateful to have trains that work at
all.

~~~
AznHisoka
That's the only thing I pay big taxes to NY for - the convenient trains (what
else is NY useful for?). And they can't even get that right!

~~~
nemo44x
I empathize with the MTA a bit. It's an old system that is probably
underfunded and operated by a very strong union which costs a lot of money.
There are still parts of the system that no manufacturer builds for anymore
requiring staff machinists to custom make parts.

The signaling system is ancient and any real effort to modernize it (like on
the L line) is fought by the union which considers modernization a threat to
jobs.

Lastly, it's a system that runs 24 hours a day which almost no other train
system can claim. finding times for the appropriate maintenance is very
difficult and requires all the rerouting you tend to see on the weekends.
People litter so much more in NYC than they do in other major cities across
the world in my experience and litter on the tracks causes so many issues. And
there's little to no time to clear litter daily off the tracks.

The system is underfunded, oversubscribed and outdated.

~~~
AznHisoka
Totally understand. I can appreciate that, and acknowledge the difficulty of
maintaining such a legacy system.

Just don't have the nerve to increase my taxes if you give that excuse though.

------
II2II
The part that I admire is that they noticed the early departure and issued an
apology without receiving complaints.

That demonstrates a lot more integrity than the operators of the public
transportation network in my city, where they claim that declining ridership
is a natural consequence of them improving their service.

------
rrdharan
It's kind of funny to think that in the west we're only ever likely to match
the punctuality of Japanese humans by replacing our humans with Japanese
robots.

------
jondubois
The London train system is one of the worst in the world.

\- It's very expensive.

\- Different parts of the network are managed by different companies which
creates a lot of confusion around tickets and smart cards.

\- The stations are relatively ugly.

\- Signs are confusing if you're not used to the system.

\- Trains from different lines often share platforms. Sometimes two trains
that have the same destination might stop at different stations and it's not
obvious which train corresponds to which line.

\- The underground trains themselves are often narrow; difficult to stand
straight.

\- They are often crowded so you often do end up having to stand up.

\- Delays are common and trains don't come very often considering how many
people live in London.

~~~
tashoecraft
haha, this is very funny as having used both the London tube and the NYC
system, I dream about the tube. It's better in every way. Trains are nicer,
stations cleaner, people are much more courteous.

NYC is almost guaranteed standing on many lines at all times of the day.

------
Silhouette
I love this.

In a slightly less dramatic variation, I was on holiday in Italy once and a
local train arrived in Rome about 3 minutes late. As we came into the station,
the loudspeaker offered Trenitalia's apologies in no fewer than three
different languages.

Here in the UK, I think trains have to be at least 17 hours overdue before
they're considered late, approximately 2 lifetimes overdue before you get any
compensation, and somewhere around the death of our sun before you'll see
anything done to make good any resulting harm beyond the price of a ticket...

------
eecc
Such things are funny until they’re not any more. See
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_rail_crash](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_rail_crash)

------
dfox
In most public transit systems that run according to published timetable
departing early is taken as more serious issue than departing late. It might
seem counterintuitive, but inconvenience caused to passengers by
arriving/departing late (small additional wait time) is significantly smaller
than by departing early (missing the connection entirely and having to wait
for the next one).

IIRC in Prague's transit system drivers are fined for not observing the
timetable without external cause and the fine for departing even one second
early is same as for being several minutes late (and is relatively significant
fraction of their monthly salary).

------
ryguytilidie
My BART train this morning was stuck in the transbay tube for about 40 minutes
this morning because a train in front of ours had someone get stuck in the
door. Our conductor spent those 40 minutes of us sitting in a hot train
bitching at us for someone else getting stuck in the doors. There's literally
just zero professionalism/pride in your work from so many people nowadays.

------
m3kw9
These guys time the door to close to match the time of departure, I.e if the
door and the warning tone takes 5 seconds, they’d press the close button 5
seconds before the time of departure, and the door motors are calibrated to be
precisely to close in a certain speed always. They have timers to make sure
they are not off. So that’s why 20 seconds to them is like an embarrassment

------
itsthejb
Whilst this is a lot of fun, and the Japanese transport system is certainly
something to be generally admired and imitated, unless I'm the only one here,
just wanted to point out that there is a dark side to this also:
[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2007/01/09/editorials/d...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2007/01/09/editorials/driving-
a-train-under-pressure/)

    
    
      Takami apparently was worried about being punished for overrunning Itami Station. In the past, he had received punitive education three times for errors and had his wages and bonuses docked. JR West’s education program, which included writing “soul searching” compositions, was known to be humiliating.

------
sushid
There was a minor EARTHQUAKE when I was in Japan. A very apologetic lady
working at the ticketing booth told me that there will be a delay.

I asked what the delay will be and it was something less than 2 minutes (1
minute and 20 seconds or something).

------
gdrift
It's a cultural thing because "It's painful to be caught between the closing
doors. Even more so are the eye of those looking at you."

[http://www.rifters.com/crawl/wp-
content/uploads/2014/05/door...](http://www.rifters.com/crawl/wp-
content/uploads/2014/05/doors.jpg)

------
virgulino
There is a danger to this punctuality. In the 2005 rail crash, with 100
deaths, it was found that "a contributing factor in the accident was the JR
West policy of schedule punctuality".
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_rail_crash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_rail_crash)

------
teekert
As someone who lives a couple of minutes of biking away from the train
station, a train leaving 20 sec early would be extremely annoying and would
cause me more delay than a train leaving 25 minutes late. I'd appreciate an
apology.

------
stordoff
To be fair, I've made connections (not in Japan) with seconds to spare due to
prior train delays. I'd be pretty annoyed if I missed one due to a train
leaving early, even when such punctuality isn't generally expected.

------
johnvonneumann
Shoutout to all my Melbourne people who experience Metro trains on a regular
basis.

------
anonu
Conversely, if the train are late in Japan - even by a minute or two - the
conductor will give you a paper note that you can show to your boss to prove
that you were late for reasons beyond your control.

------
nexuslab
WOW! I wish the DOT in Los Angeles was like this.

------
readhn
This is why I keep buying Lexus/Toyota cars. Their production system is the
reason for making most reliable vehicles on the road today. Period. This
apology is just a reflection of how they approach their jobs (with pride).
High Quality speaks volumes.

------
harel
In the UK a train being approximately on time would merit a news item.

------
Feniks
Japanese trains and metro are all carefully orchestrated. Just one minute is
enough to miss a connection. It really screws up people's routine.

------
phonon
"Repent, Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman

------
CodeSheikh
Meanwhile, New York Subway (MTA): "We sincerely apologise for the
inconvenience of arriving on time"

------
renzon
I just use pyup ([https://pyup.io/](https://pyup.io/)) for Python projects and
it works like a charm. It not only show vulnerabilities but also updates and
Python 3 incompatibilities.

------
deepsun
How do they work out around impossibility to perfectly synchronize clocks at a
distance due to special relativity?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
They work around it by having the stations not move with respect to each
other.

~~~
deepsun
Well, I was joking... Obviously, microseconds don't matter there.

By the way, stations do move with respect to each other due to Earth rotation.
Nevertheless, it's still theoretically impossible to perfectly synchronize two
clocks even if they don't move with respect to each other. It's tightly
coupled to problem of measuring speed of light in one direction. We cannot do
that, we can only measure there-and-back speed, and then divide it by two.But
there's no way to show that those are actually equal legs.

