
Four Years in Startups - pdog
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/09/30/four-years-in-startups
======
shellmayr
The text really captured my attention. I've recently been struggling with
whether or not tech and the modern internet are a force for good. I always
enjoyed tinkering with hardware and software, and have been working in related
jobs because it pays well and there are always interesting challenges to
solve. But the societal shifts ongoing in Europe, the filter bubbles and
breaking down of discourse, the xenophobia and the growing divide between
large parts of society as well as the erosion of (local) media and the crisis
of mental well-being among both adults and adolescents, which I feel are at
least partly attributable to technological changes in the past ten years, have
led me to think that maybe the most important thing for people right now may
be spaces without technology, without personalization and just being
confronted with the community of others. This does not seem like a problem
solvable by the means of technology and makes me wonder whether I've spent my
life learning about technology only to abandon it at some point.

Are there any good resources about what I call my "tech hangover" to navigate
how to move on, maybe convert this education into something of societal value
beyond screens? Or am I being too cynical about everything and in reality it's
all much better than I'm seeing it? Open for anything here really, but
struggling with the status quo.

~~~
v64
I don't have any good advice, but just wanted to say you're definitely not
alone. I left the tech industry due to these feelings and observations.

~~~
codyb
Mind if I asked what you got into instead and how you transitioned to it?

~~~
v64
Sure, although I'm not sure how helpful the answer will be as I'm still trying
to figure things out myself :)

After I quit my job in 2017, I floundered for a bit while living off of my
savings. Later that year, the big crypto bull run happened and I was
introduced to trading. After the bubble popped, I learned how to trade options
through TastyTrade [1] and have been doing that since. TastyTrade CEO Tom
Sosnoff [2] has a refreshing attitude toward finance that totally spits in the
face of Wall Street. I think the way he's addressed and dealt with Wall Street
has some clues for how we can similarly criticize the excesses of tech.

For now, getting myself back on my feet has just been the start. I still feel
unsatisfied with where I am in life and how I'm interacting with my community
and what I can do for others. I have some vague ideas about how to use the
money I've raised to bring more awareness to these issues in tech and to
support those who are building organizations that address these issues from
day one. I don't have anything concrete yet, but I've been trying to network
and learn more.

[1] [https://tastytrade.com/](https://tastytrade.com/)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sosnoff](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sosnoff)

------
jonahbenton
A beautifully written piece that brings to mind Alan Kay's statement that a
change in perspective is worth 80 IQ points. The world would be much better
off if tech could see itself from her vantagepoint.

Appearing on HN on a remarkable day in a remarkable era when notable women are
forcing historic change with strength, courage, and a different perspective-
it is likely this piece will just be a footnote. I hope it becomes more.

~~~
staticautomatic
Tech _can_ see itself from her vantage point. It just refuses to acknowledge
that it's looking at itself.

~~~
crustacean
Yep. Everyone is gonna start to see tech the way tech sees finance and
military contractors

------
undefined3840
I share a very similar experience to the author, though somehow even a little
more extreme, including working in an entry level role for a certain tech
mafia, living through maybe half of the events detailed in the new Uber book,
working for the family of the president’s son in law, and then working at an
absolute dumpster fire of a crypto company.

Should probably write a book about it one day!

~~~
askafriend
You can write a blog. I think people would take interest in those kinds of
stories.

------
wespiser_2018
Great write up! I really enjoy hearing this perspective. I think it's so easy
to get wrapped up a big dream that we lose perspective into what's important.
Treating people with respect and doing the right thing for the employees,
customer, and owners. A lot of these mistakes can be tied to inexperience, and
I wouldn't be surprised if the average age of VC invested founders goes up
when money thins out!

~~~
artsyca
Couldn't have written it better myself, however the toxic element is when all
these naive/entitled people make the same mistakes over and over and lead to
people lives getting destroyed over and over again

------
opportune
I don’t understand why all these from-the-inside vignettes overplay all the
stereotypes so much. I guess it has to do with making it more exciting and
exotic for your readers

~~~
clydethefrog
I have a feeling they don't overplay it. Writers of the HBO comedy series
'Silicon Valley' shared they don't use all real life examples because they
were 'too hacky'.

[https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/how-
silicon-v...](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/how-silicon-
valley-nails-silicon-valley)

------
plinkplonk
The Mixpanel (if that is the company being referred to, seems pretty obvious)
CEO's callous firing of someone who asked for a raise, then threatening anyone
who disagreed with this decision with termination is horrendous (if true).

~~~
MaxfordAndSons
Yea that scene was bonkers. Is that even legal, to demand resignation of an
employee if they admit to disagreeing with a decision of yours? I hope I would
have the courage to speak truth if I were ever put in that situation.

~~~
lotsofpulp
You can’t demand someone to resign, but you can terminate someone for no
reason.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-
will_employment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment)

Resignation is an employee choosing to leave a job, and results in becoming
ineligible to receive unemployment benefits, which results in the employer’s
unemployment insurance premiums to be lower.

------
aditya34
"The employees tried to be the C.E.O’s friends, but we were not his friends.
He shut down our ideas and belittled us in private meetings; he dangled
responsibility and prestige, only to retract them inexplicably. We regularly
brought him customer feedback, like dogs mouthing tennis balls, and he
regularly ignored us. He was expensive to work for: at least two of my co-
workers met with therapists to talk through their relationship with him."

This is Suhail Doshi, the former CEO of Mixpanel
[https://twitter.com/Suhail](https://twitter.com/Suhail)

This article is accurate but barely scratches the surface of how cruel he was
to his employees.

~~~
wellti4282
Now, Suhail is starting another company, Mighty [1][2], a cloud-based browser.

I had a quick exchange with him about a potential position, but his arrogance
and inflated ego left me uninterested. He shared very few details about the
company, talking with a tone that assumed I was automatically convinced I
would want to join just because he has founded Mixpanel. Hiring is a two-way
street buddy.

[1] [https://mightyapp.com](https://mightyapp.com) [2]
[https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/19/all-84-startups-from-y-
com...](https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/19/all-84-startups-from-y-
combinators-s19-demo-day-1/)

~~~
Dunedan
> a cloud-based browser

I cringed reading that. Assuming I might have misunderstood the product I
looked at the linked pages and cringed even more. There is definitely too much
money available to startups in SV nowadays.

As Mighty are looking into spreading their business model to other software
types I suggest they cover the video player market next.

------
tomnipotent
> A popular narrative about trolls was that they were just a bunch of lonely
> men in their parents’ basements, but this looked like a coördinated effort.
> The repository included e-mail templates and phone-call scripts. It was, my
> teammates agreed, unusual to see them so organized.

4chain raids provided automated software to assist in highly coordinated
trolls - an email template seems like child's play compared to what the "best"
trolls can pull. I experienced a raid running a business affiliated with
Carson Daly, who made the "honest" mistake of appropriating a 4chan meme on
his talk show. Had to shutdown the website and restore the database to the
night before to get rid of all the child porn they were uploading to forums we
hosted. Thanks for the memory, 4chan.

~~~
hef19898
This is some mean shit on so many levels.

------
sixstringtheory
Rarely do I get the uncanny feeling of someone else describing my experience
or taking the words out of my mouth, but this one did it so, so well.
Somewhere in between The Circle and Silicon Valley (the show).

I often think about walking away and working as a baker.

------
nilkanthjp
The companies, locations, and people referenced in this article are so thinly
veiled I don't understand why they'd try to keep them anonymous at all?

~~~
MFLoon
I don't think they're claiming to actually anonymize them. Seems like it's
just a stylistic choice to not affirmatively identify them.

~~~
john-radio
And avoiding a potential libel suit.

~~~
aditya34
It's only libel if it isn't true.

------
KKKKkkkk1
> On the train home, I leaned into Ian and recounted the interaction. What
> sexists, I said. How dare they be so dismissive, just because I was a
> woman—just because I did customer support and was considered nontechnical.
> Ian cringed and pulled me closer. “You’re not going to like this,” he said.
> “But you were trying to talk shit about self-driving cars with some of the
> first engineers ever to build one.”

I wonder who are these engineers who claimed to have built a self-driving car
in 2013. Because we're in 2019 and self-driving cars still require two drivers
to operate them.

~~~
artsyca
agile methodology -- first build a skateboard, then a scooter, then a bicycle
then a Tesla -- they were probably building an MVP

ref: [https://m.dotdev.co/the-agile-
bicycle-829a83b18e7](https://m.dotdev.co/the-agile-bicycle-829a83b18e7)

~~~
artsyca
I'm being sarcastic by the way -- that shit doesn't work

------
fitech
Wow, this author actually wrote well enough for me to read the whole article.
I usually drop out 1-2 paragraphs into these types of longer form stories.
Good job and looking forward to reading more.

~~~
homonculus1
I think the key difference is that the headline doesn't bait and switch you
with the promise of some deeply-buried lede. You're reading it in the first
place because you're interested in the author's firsthand experience.

I normally detest long-form because I go into it wanting to discover a tricky
horse-betting scheme, but then I have to sit through pages of what some guy's
suit looked like and how he held his cigar as he sat down for lunch. This
author has her priorities aligned and doesn't abuse or mislead the reader.

------
atomashpolskiy
TLDR: Founders are arrogant, self-serving assholes, spending other people's
money; techies are ass-licking, ignorant avocado munchers. $$$ is being spent
and harm is being done, while non-tech people struggle to make a living, but
have a real life. Get out of the bubble.

~~~
rainyMammoth
Don't know why you are being downvoted but you your TLDR is pretty much spot
on.

I would suggest to any techie who finds this not true to leave the bay area
for a couple months then come back. It is amazing how entitled everyone is
over here.

~~~
jypepin
This. I feel like the article is a little bit too negative, but I've been
something pretty much similar. I moved to SF, worked for about 4 years, loved
it, but then moved back to Europe and realised "oh wow, it IS a bubble".

Now I'm excited to eventually go back to the bay, but it was very valuable to
take a step back, go away and think about it!

~~~
rainyMammoth
I'm in the exact same situation as you. Worked here for a couple years then
left the bay area for a couple months in between jobs and came back.

Taking a step back allowed me to see how most people live outside of the bay
area and how big our bubble is. As you I'm excited to be here but I take
everything with a grain of salt.

------
girfan
Reading this beautifully written piece brings to mind the recent book about
Elizabeth Holmes - Bad Blood. Some of the completely unacceptable behavior by
tech CEOs and "higher ups" definitely rings a bell; some startups like
Theranos were doing exactly that and ended up getting a lot of negative
attention.

------
quocble
I read it as 12 year a slave.

------
sergioisidoro
I listened to the article, and yes, the startup environment has a LOT of
problems.

But the pretentious tone removes a lot of it's legitimacy for me, mostly
because it sinks as low as some of these startups to get engagement and
reactions to the article, to the point of becoming hypocritical.

We need proper journalism uncovering these malpractices, not sensationalist or
tech gossip pieces that can be discredited as such.

