
The Expansion of the Clean Network to Safeguard America’s Assets - PatrolX
https://www.state.gov/announcing-the-expansion-of-the-clean-network-to-safeguard-americas-assets/
======
alexmingoia
Restricting communication with China isn’t just a restriction on China, but on
Americans. These laws prevent Americans from freely associating.

You see the same spin with immigration and trade restrictions. They are in
fact a restriction of Americans’ freedom to trade and associate, but are
always presented from the other angle (as a restriction on foreigners).

~~~
koonsolo
When I (EU citizen) was on holliday in Cuba, I met a woman from US who had to
do some special things to be able to visit that country as a tourist. She
tried to make sure the US didn't know about it. "Freedom" is very relative
indeed.

------
_-___________-_
From a position external to both China and the US, it's really hard to see a
meaningful difference between the vague propaganda and doublespeak in this
announcement and the same kind of announcements from the CCP.

~~~
est
A funny coincidence: The "Clean Network" was literally the exact same as "净网"
campaigns in China which CCP unleash fierce crackdown on media and Internet to
purge unwelcome content.

Or is it a name to troll CCP?

------
mundo
This is incredibly vague. Is this a proposal for some kind of standard or
protocol? It says that "many of the world’s biggest telecommunications
companies are Clean Telcos", so whatever it is it can't be that difficult to
achieve.

Is someone familiar enough with this to provide a source that discusses what
"Clean Carrier/Telco/Store/etc" entails technically?

~~~
fatbird
This isn't about technology, it's about organizations and vendors. It's saying
that PRC carriers may not connect directly to US telecommunications networks;
that PRC apps cannot be available in app stores selling to US customers; that
PRC smartphone manufacturers may not bypass the restriction on stores by
selling phones to Americans with PRC apps pre-installed; that US cloud
properties must be accessible to PRC companies; and that undersea cables
aren't tapped by PRC intelligence agencies.

It's not about technology, it's about a business qualification for US telecoms
and technology companies like Apple and Amazon. If they meet these standards,
they're part of the "clean network" (which is just ugly obvious racism).

As a practical matter, this is dubious because there's hundreds of ways around
these requirements bureaucratically. The value of this is the threat to China,
that specific examples like TikTok can be chosen and banned; or that third
parties like European businesses might move away from China to avoid
jeopardizing U.S. business. This is just another front in the trade war.

~~~
tristor
Your first paragraph seems accurate. I think this move represents a failure of
the spiritual goals of the Internet to provide standardized interconnection
between networks globally, so I don't approve of the move. That said, I think
you are far too casually throwing out the term "racist" in your comments here
and elsewhere in the thread.

There are blatant, obvious actions that the CCP has taken or sponsored which
have negatively impacted the security and privacy of people who are not
citizens of China and data sovereignty is not a foreign concept. That's not
even counting the more subtle things that we don't hear about in the news. So
I think assigning "racism" as a motivation is naive and looking for an easy
criticism rather than trying to intellectually wrestle with the very real
complication of having standardized globally interconnected communication
networks while at the same time having geopolitical conflicts (and all of the
things which stem from that).

~~~
magicsmoke
Well, another goal of the internet was to have a network without central
coordinators that can continue to function even if parts of it went offline,
say in a nuclear attack. This has no problem facilitating the global internet
splintering into many smaller networks. Just goes to show how amazing the
design of the IP protocol really is.

------
naringas
soon there will no longer be the one internet. There will internet one for the
USA and the "west", internet two for China and the "east" internet.

and maybe a third type of internet for some countries which connects two both
Internets (but maybe only one at a time?)

so we'll have first internet countries (USA), second internet countries
(China), and third internet countries (both)

~~~
dgellow
That’s already the case. You have at least China’s Internet, Russia’s
Internet, France is discussing ways to do the same, Australia seems to want to
do it too, Thailand did some experiments a few years ago, etc.

~~~
fermienrico
Yet, no one seems to care what is unloaded from the ship docks, literally a
"Port" where 98% of the goods are manufactured in one country including the
entire supply chain that spans behind those goods.

~~~
magicsmoke
And all the tools that make those goods and the IP behind them is owned by the
US. Stuff like semiconductor equipment, CPU designs, and electronic design
automation software, and China has to pay license fees every time it uses them
to manufacture a product. China is desperately trying to achieve technology
independence because it knows that it has few comparable replacements if the
US decided to completely close access to its technology tomorrow. It's not
impossible to move manufacturing out of China. After all, it's already been
done once before when it moved out of the US. However, it's not proven that
China can reach technological independence. Japan and South Korea were able to
make the jump to high tech industries but they're still very tied to US
technologies.

However, a better indicator of who has the technology lead than commercial
applications in my opinion is if China can replicate US military technology,
for example build an equivalent or better to the F35.

~~~
JetSpiegel
The US can't build the F35 either, considering all the cost overruns, delays,
basic issues found late in the project.

------
mistrial9
As a US Citizen on the West Coast, my unadvertised research servers have been
harassed by PRC IPs and others, without fail, for a decade+. I am not at all
associated with the US Federal Government, and do not practice partisan
politics.

All I know is, I have done nothing myself to PRC China, yet my basic linux and
BSD setups are daily refusing all kinds of stupid and smart hack attacks via
the Internet from that address range.

~~~
kinguking
Just curious, why do you assume it's the "PRC China" that's attacking your
boxes instead of just some random Chinese high schooler?

~~~
est
Just curious, why do you assume it's the "PRC China" that's attacking your
boxes instead of just some botnets happened to have tons of Chinese IPs?

------
knzhou
Time to get a VPN if you want to communicate across the Great Firewall of
America.

~~~
knzhou
Curious about the downvotes. Do people believe that this curtailment of
freedom can't happen in America? I know people already rushing to prepare for
it.

Or perhaps they believe that it will happen, but that it's a good thing?

Or perhaps, as is increasingly common, they believe both simultaneously:
"China's firewall restricts freedom; our copy of it promotes freedom."

~~~
_-___________-_
> "China's firewall restricts freedom; our copy of it promotes freedom."

Sadly, I think there are a lot of people who would believe that.

~~~
oh_sigh
Sort of the difference between a wall that keeps you in versus a wall that
keeps unwelcome people out. But then again, some people believe that the us-
mexico border wall is morally equivalent to the Berlin Wall, so who knows how
that argument will go.

~~~
knzhou
> Sort of the difference between a wall that keeps you in versus a wall that
> keeps unwelcome people out.

And how do you think the Chinese state describes the Chinese firewall?

~~~
oh_sigh
I don't know, but it is clear that the Chinese firewall is about preventing
Chinese people from accessing the wider internet, not about preventing non-
chinese people from accessing the Chinese internet.

~~~
_-___________-_
> the Chinese firewall is about preventing Chinese people from accessing the
> wider internet

It's not, really. Most of the "wider Internet" is accessible, only specific
(mostly US or politically-oriented) properties are inaccessible. Very much
like what is being planned in the US.

------
odomojuli
I hate the name, even the colonial imperialist associations with Cyber Monroe
Doctrine sound more diplomatic than Clean Network. This literally sounds like
an intellectual purge. Maybe because it is. This is a very purge-y purge name
for a purge.

I guess we've officially thrown our hat into the ring for digital sovereignty
and cyberpopulism. I wanted some decentralization but not like this.

I'm just upset that China gets Great Firewall and Russia gets Digital Iron
Curtain and we get... Clean Network.

Is it too much to ask that we at least have better marketing for our
authoritarianism?

Also, seems like a dated understanding. What happens when the Internet reaches
comparable availability via satellite? No wonder they want to test shooting
missiles in orbit.

With EARN-IT, the H1-B ban, Clean Network, etc., I fear we're setting back our
scientific and intellectual advantage several generations. The lessons of the
Crypto Wars feel distinctly appropriate.

I'm certainly starting to feel the wind blow a certain direction. Only the
paranoid survive.

~~~
yegle
The name is very likely a play on China's "净网行动" (literally translate to: a
campaign to cleanse the Internet).

Unfortunately there's no much English reference for it, but
[https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-
hans/%E6%89%AB%E9%BB%84%E6%89%93...](https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-
hans/%E6%89%AB%E9%BB%84%E6%89%93%E9%9D%9E%C2%B7%E5%87%80%E7%BD%912014?wprov=sfla1)
is a Wiki page in Chinese.

~~~
chloerei
"clean net 2014" mainly cleans up pornographic content.

~~~
yegle
No, it's a way to censor a lot of websites or push them to self-censor their
content.

There are multiple waves of "Campaign to cleanse the Internet". The linked
wiki page is for 2014 and the latest one is in 2020:
[http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2020-04/11/content_5501287.htm](http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2020-04/11/content_5501287.htm)

~~~
chloerei
I don't deny that "clean net" is pushing self-censorship.

I just want to point out that Pompeo’s goal of cleaning up a country can
easily extend to ethnic groups, which seems to be a sign of fascism.

------
jas-
Why aren’t there lines of effort for hardware manufacturing processes,
firmware and logistical supply chains?

~~~
fermienrico
This is where the focus should be. The _entire_ world has put all eggs in one
nest. That's just asking for trouble.

------
ardy42
> Clean Carrier: To ensure untrusted People’s Republic of China (PRC) carriers
> are not connected with U.S. telecommunications networks. Such companies pose
> a danger to U.S. national security and should not provide international
> telecommunications services to and from the United States.

I hope this doesn't affect international roaming while in the PRC, which
tunnels all your traffic through your home country. That's how I get around
the firewall when I'm there.

------
Keverw
China blocks and keeps out US companies like Google, so not really that
surprised. If they can't use Google, why should we use TikTok? But on the
other hand this does seem a bit concerning, the cool thing about the internet
is it connects the world, someone in the US could be friends with someone in
the Netherlands and even collaborate on projects and stuff using Github, etc.
So if blocking off China is ok instead of building more secure systems, wonder
if this is a step down the wrong path? First China, who's next?

But I've already found this stuff is strange, like a Android Phone
manufactured in China can't even go to Google's website unless you ship the
phone out of China or VPN etc yet Google makes Android...

I think it'd be cool to have fully automated factories, just pour in raw
materials and new phones pop out. Could even have mini factories closer to
where you are selling them too. I do think all the processors or other
component being made overseas for critical systems could also be a weakness.

------
quantified
I’d like to see some evidence of 5G being actually cleanable. See for example
[https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/24/new-4g-5g-security-
flaws/](https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/24/new-4g-5g-security-flaws/)

~~~
Aperocky
As long as it did not contain equipment from specific foreign firm or
countries, that's the standard. Brought to you from the proponent to outlaw
encryption, what other evidence do you expect.

------
LatteLazy
I am caught in a difficult position. On one hand, I think this is BS and its
political, not about security. On the other hand, fuck the CCP (democracy,
treatment of minorities, HK, Coronavirus, war with India, South China Seas BS,
what's not to hate?).

------
chj
"To remove untrusted applications from U.S. mobile app stores." What is
trusted?

~~~
LatteLazy
Anyone part of the republican party donor association.

------
ushery
For a moment I can't tell whether this is a state department's press release
or a comment below Bill Gates' instagram post.

------
sraw333
Is this another way to attract the public's attention? I mean, I am very
curious about why there is nobody even cares about the coronavirus any more.
All of them are focusing on some "ethereal" problems. And just let the city
down, let the people die.

Why there is no further national-wide action? Trump is always asking for re-
opening, asking the school to re-open, asking the community to re-open. Well,
I understand that is good/essential for the economy. But the question is, how?
Maybe you don't believe, there are around 5M infected people in the US, which
means for every 100 people, there is one who is/was infected.

And the even more ridiculous thing is, this number is still rocketing, no sign
to stop. Every day, I can see many homeless, they don't have to be homeless,
but the country is still sick, they have no choice.

I really hope there could be one day that we can back to normal days. The sun,
the flowers, the people.

------
radium3d
Are Trump and Pompeo building a great firewall of censorship the same as
China's "great" firewall?

Keep the internet open. Don't be like China.

------
zzzeek
Spyware from CHINA will not be tolerated. However if the apps are spyware from
Russia (who have already attacked our electoral systems _directly_ and
_successfully_ ), hey take what you want!

------
PatrolX
Trump's building a Firewall

------
YarickR2
Here goes Fiber Curtain

------
ezVoodoo
I am puzzled. Was the Prism project clean or dirty?

------
aSplash0fDerp
If they called it "Dim Some Networks", do you think the US could make a
billion people laugh at the same time?

The Internet has been the best version of Dim Sum for a hungry mind, so its a
shame possesive cultures ruined it for themselves...

~~~
aSplash0fDerp
Appreciate the DV`s :)

Some jokes never get old [0].

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_finger_trap](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_finger_trap)

