
TSMC Builds a Dedicated 28nm Fab for Sony Orders - mlacks
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2020/07/tsmc-builds-dedicated-28nm-fab-for-sony.html?m=1
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tpmx
CIS = CMOS Image Sensor, apparently. Gotta love macronyms/nested acronyms.

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pritovido
Thanks. I hate it so much when people do not explain the acronyms they use, at
least once.

It is like a map without a legend. It is so confusing.

And I am an expert on electronics, I can guess it, most people will read that
as nonsense.

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rorykoehler
My wife was talking about OHP which she used when teaching while explaining
something today. I was a bit confused as we didn’t have anything called OHP
when I was in school. After a bit of explaining we realised she had only ever
known it as OHP. She has never stopped to think about what it was an acronym
for. Turns out she was talking about the overhead projector which we had
plenty of in school. Reminded me of the five monkeys experiment
[https://workingoutloud.com/blog/the-five-monkeys-
experiment-...](https://workingoutloud.com/blog/the-five-monkeys-experiment-
with-a-new-lesson)

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pstuart
We live in a "5 monkeys" world.

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hinkley
Feeling more like 12 Monkeys these days.

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mensetmanusman
So much nostalgia for that movie

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shrubble
Sony is trying to own the market for image sensors.

The Nikon D850's image sensor was designed by Nikon but Sony made it.

They have a 'firewall' in place between the custom-contracted fab work they
did for Nikon vs the team that designs Sony sensors, so that the Nikon IP
stays only with Nikon.

See [https://m.dpreview.com/news/1234108119/nikon-d850-sensor-
con...](https://m.dpreview.com/news/1234108119/nikon-d850-sensor-confirmed-as-
sony-made)

Only Canon at this point has stuck with their own image sensor IP and designs,
as I understand it.

Not sure where Ricoh/Pentax gets their sensors from, it's believed some are
Samsung and some are Sony.

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newsclues
Where does R3D source their sensors?

~~~
phonon
[http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2019/09/red-
camera-s...](http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2019/09/red-camera-
sensor-conspiracy-theories.html)

TLDW, Forza Silicon. (
[https://www.forzasilicon.com/](https://www.forzasilicon.com/)) now owned by
[https://www.ametek.com/](https://www.ametek.com/)

May not be true for all of Red's sensors. Other hardware is made by
[https://www.sanmina.com/](https://www.sanmina.com/)

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jonplackett
Why do Sony want 28nm specifically?

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sudosysgen
Because image sensors need to have a certain size, not a certain amount of
transistors.

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supernova87a
Ding ding ding!

The physical size of the sensor is locked because it is tied to entire
families of camera, lens, etc sizes that are very difficult to change. So that
is the given constraint, and the other parameters flow from it.

It's not that they really _want_ this size/node. It just is the optimization
of what they are allowed to work within.

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alfalfasprout
You can still keep the physical sensor size the same but use a smaller
process. Of course, if you can use 450mm+ wafer sizes at 25nm vs. 300mm wafers
at <=10nm then suddenly it's a _massive_ price difference.

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sudosysgen
But you still need to have the same wafer area if you are keeping the same
sensor size. So you can't have 300mm wafers at <10nm, you still need 864+mm
(for a FF sensor).

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aesthesia
That’s the sensor area. GP is referring to the diameter of the wafer, on which
you can fit many 36x24mm full frame sensors. Larger wafers improve throughput
and thus reduce cost per sensor.

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sudosysgen
Oh yep, misread it.

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sitkack
This is really interesting from a business relationship perspective. Sony
helped TSMC build and install a new fab that TSMC will run exclusively for
Sony. This is like a cloud provider bringing up a new DC just for one customer
using that customer's equipment.

Is TSMC just going to start rolling up every mom and pop fab? Are they the
Sinclair of Silicon?

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asimpletune
I can’t wait for the same efficiencies we’ve seen in mobile CPUs to translate
to other areas, like image sensors. The latest Sony a7s III is supposed to
have a giant heat sink as one of its flagship features, but just imagine if
they were working on TSMC 5nm tech.

~~~
jhj
Sensors such as CCDs are largely analog devices (up to the A-to-D converter),
where thermal noise / shot noise etc. are things that matter. Cooling a CCD
via active cooling or a heat sink will help lower the noise floor and improve
the signal-to-noise ratio and thus picture quality.

