

Rebuttal to "A hacker's loneliness" - phaedrus

I too "wasted" most of my teens writing "pointless" programs - games in Basic that I never finished, assembly language programs optimized for old computers 20 years obsolete, and C++ programs with extensible architectures that no one else will ever extend.<p>My father always warned me that one day I would wake up and realize I'd wasted my life sitting in front of a computer screen.  Bullshit.<p>When I was in college I ran into people I'd known in high school who told me some stories about what was really going on in the social circles I'd missed while I spent my days with a computer, and I was shocked.  Most of my "normal" peers who had social lives drank heavily and got into drugs - some died or nearly died.  Many of them became teen parents.  I never even knew!  My obsession with computers had kept me insulated from all of that.<p>Now that I'm a working adult and married, I look back with wonder at the thought of having long summer vacations where I had no responsibilities preventing me from hacking for days on end.  Though I didn't appreciate the time I had then as much as I would appreciate it now, I would not change a single minute of how I spent it.  There is a depth of understanding I built up during those years doing "pointless" hacking that I simply could not have picked up in the piecemeal way my time is split up today.  Every year that I spent working 12 hours a day on interesting problems while I was in high school put me ahead 6 years on what I could accomplish today, when I'm lucky to get 1-2 hours free a day.  Whenever I run across a problem today that I can solve in a snap because it mirrors a problem I already solved at my leisure during those early year, I think, "Damn it's good to be a geek."
======
lallysingh
Yeah, I didn't have those problems. Of course, my dad's a physicist who hacks
Matlab & FORTRAN all day, so I may have grown up with a different
interpretation of all this.

The wonderful thing about programming is that the computer is an honest
mirror. If you screwed something up, you'll know. It won't spare your feelings
or let you delude yourself into thinking it's working (well, within reason --
eventually you learn to write good tests).

In a world with so much bullshit, it's pretty nice. While growing up, it's a
great anchor of simple reality in a volatile time in your life.

As for other questions as "does it make you into a loser" or "is it a life-
long cockblock?" the answer's simple: it's fairly unrelated. If you're a true
loser, you'll just be a computer loser. Ditto for the cockblock.

OTOH, you'll notice that there percentage of college-educated men has been
dropping recently, while the opposite has been occurring for women. Which
means a certain tolerance to loserness is building to help against that self-
cockblock threshold.

Maybe 5-10 years ago it was a problem, but in my generation (I'm 29),
everyone's using a computer almost all day long. The only difference is that
it's my job directly, while others have other jobs using the computer. Gaming
is deeply mainstream now (esp. in men in my age group & younger), and
programming's just a good sign of intelligence in this group.

Look, here's what you do:

1\. Hit the fucking gym. It's really not hard. Usually single programmers have
lots of disposable income. Instead of buying that new Amiga motherboard you've
been salivating over, spend some cash on looking hot. Experiment with it like
you would any other problem: maybe a trainer, different exercises, buy some
books on it, maybe some equipment, whatever. You've got the CPU for this, and
this really is a simple problem that's usually solved if you can get off the
terminal for an hour or so every other day (and you can, just schedule your
gentoo builds).

2\. Drink water and/or diet soda while hacking. It's the cheap sugar calories
in regular soda that give programmers the "fat loser" stigma.

3\. Don't wear the free t-shirts you get at social events. Actually spend
money on what you wear and research what looks good & bad. For men, fashion is
dumb-fuck-simple. If you don't know, just read "Dressing the Man" and only do
1/10th of what it says.

4\. Have other non-computer-geek things in your life. Somewhere that'll let
people connect with you somehow. Politics, music, sports, whatever.

With that, you're a good-looking, intelligent, well-paid guy. Suddenly you can
be a complete jackass and still get laid pretty often. Just, you know, don't
start singing to yourself & rocking in your seat when a girl approaches you.

Sorry for the preaching, but when I hear the same seemingly easy-to-solve
complaints over & over, I kinda have to get this way.

~~~
yan
I totally agree.

People tend to associate computer geekery with loneliness and social
ineptness, but I think what's actually happening is the solitary nature of
hacking attracts the loners.

Another facet of this is the fact that hackers tend to think overly
quantitatively about the world, and try to approach everything from a 100%
logical standpoint. The real world dynamics have feelings, emotions, and
totally irrational behavior. Continuing to moan about how everyone else
doesn't see the light of logic and retreating to hacking technology which does
follow a strict guideline is self-detrimental.

Learning to hack society is also interesting and has potentially larger pay-
offs.

~~~
lallysingh
Takedown II: Mitnick gets laid.

------
tdavis
I mixed "geeky" and "normal" for most of my life as well, though skewed
towards "geeky." I think joining the military out of high school did a lot to
improve my non-geek image, though that wasn't at all why I did it. Every
girlfriend I've ever had has informed me that I am "such a geek" on a regular
basis, albeit in an endearing fashion.

The most interesting part, though, is that Dan (co-founder and long-time
friend) did largely the same thing, but he was skewed towards the "normal"
side of things -- the interesting part being how much it shows now that we're
older. For instance, he maintains a lot more relationships than I do, both
romantic and otherwise. I am far less socially active than he is, especially
when it comes to meeting new people, though I can play the game when necessity
warrants it.

Essentially, he ended up being more "popular." The thing is, it's by and large
a product of our differing personalities. When we were kids we spent a roughly
equal amount of time on the computer (I know because we played the same games
together every free hour of the day!) and the only difference today is that I
think he spends even more time in front of the screens than I do. He doesn't
have more friends because he was doing bong hits while I was writing code in
seclusion. It's that way because he's just a more social person and, in my
opinion, seems to like people in general more than I do. I had friends and a
social life in high school and beyond, I was just content with having fewer
friends and a smaller circle.

So, do I feel like I've missed out? Not at all. I've had my fair share of life
experiences, probably far more than most "normal" people ever will, and I'm
only 23. Right now I'm perfectly content being a single, boring programmer
working on a start-up who goes out with the sole purpose of drinking with
existing friends and being left alone otherwise. If I stop being content with
that, all the hours in front of the computer aren't going to negatively affect
any change I desire.

Don't blame the past, just change the present.

~~~
fallentimes
What's also hilarious: even though I can't code for shit I'm regarded as the
"tech dork" or "geek" or "nerd" in the majority of my friend circles. I take
it as a compliment.

Tom can definitely play the game when he needs to. You should see him with VCs
or Irish women. They look like they're talking to a Monarch or something.

------
Jem
I have the benefit of having enjoyed the best (and worst) of both worlds.

When I was 13 I had a crappy old PC that I used to take apart and fiddle with.
When it bust altogether, I pretty much forgot about computers.

I reached 14, I lost my brother, and as I watched my family crumble I turned
to drinking and smoking weed. Yes, at 14. I hung out with the wrong crowd, I
did things I shouldn't have and I spent my school time living up what was
deemed the "ideal" social life by my peers.

A year or so later I got really in to computers again. I started making web
pages; I got a new (old) desktop which I tweaked up and geeked out on. I
progressed from HTML and CSS to PHP (and yeah, I know that PHP has a bad rap
amongst most hackers here, but I like it), spent all my time in IT at school
etc. I gently progressed in to a real computer nerd.

Looking back now, I can honestly say that the time I "wasted" messing about
with computers, teaching myself how to code, etc.. they were the best of my
teenage years, and I have no regrets on how I spent my time. It is who I am, I
enjoy doing what I do. I wouldn't change for anyone.

~~~
mrtron
Great point here as well.

People often feel like they wasted their youth regardless of how they spent
it. They always feel they could have done more, could have been more. I have
heard the same stories from friends who made it to a very high level in sports
- they feel they dedicated too much of their life just to one purpose too. The
same goes with the socialites - they often feel they just wasted too much time
at parties and all those blend together with time.

It actually reminds me of a key point in my life when I was talking with a
close friend of mine. He had just returned from an amazing trip backpacking
through South America for 4 months and he told me he was envious of how I
could be so stable and driven towards my one goal of starting my own company.
I was shocked, because I felt the exact opposite and wished I had went on that
trip with him.

Such is life, and it is full of compromises.

~~~
iamwil
>People often feel like they wasted their youth regardless of how they spent
it.

"Youth is often wasted on the young" - George Bernard Shaw

~~~
PieSquared
Well, I'm youth. What would you do if you were in my place? (High school,
likes hacking, general geek, plays DnD, etc)

I'm actually sincerely curious, since somehow lately I've been feeling that
I'm not doing anything significantly awesome or useful - nothing I'll remember
in a year or two.

~~~
iamwil
I originally wrote more, but thought better of it. All the things I listed, I
heard when I was also in HS, but they meant nothing until I actually had to
deal with it. Advice is tricky business. So here's two for the immediate
future.

Date girls and get use to rejection - Things don't 'just happen' for guys
(assuming you are one), so get out there and make some magic happen. Keep in
mind that girls (and guys) sometimes have no idea what they want, and it's not
always you. I use to think this was a natural thing, but like most anything
else, it just takes practice. The skills you learn here you'll find applicable
to a lot of situations where you'll have to deal with others.

Cultivate a sense of curiosity - For that, I refer to you Bill Watterson of
Calvin and Hobbes <http://home3.inet.tele.dk/stadil/spe_kc.htm>

~~~
adldesigner
Thanks for the link! I found it a very refreshing essay.

------
dgabriel
Hmm, somehow I managed to have a computer habit AND friends. Also some drugs,
some drinking, etc. Of course, my grades weren't stellar in high school;
something has to give.

~~~
unalone
I think that on a vast cosmetic scale, high school grades mean the least of
nearly everything. Unless you run across a snobby Ivy kid - and most Ivy kids
I know tend not to care about your school so much as your mind - they change
nothing.

~~~
palish
It's true. I dropped out of high school to join the gamedev industry, and the
company didn't seem to mind.

~~~
unalone
I'm in college right now (freshman), and every instinct in me is telling me to
figure out how to get out and DO something. It's tough, because I love the
college atmosphere. I just am tired of being in classes, doing really basic
stuff, when I have ideas that could change things.

Has anybody else had that sort of dilemma in their life?

------
biohacker42
Sounds like the key difference here is that you're married.

Apparently what ever you do is worthless if you can't get a va-je-jey, and
totally worthwhile if you do.

What if you're a virgin, who's gotten super rich through hacking and is
donating tons of money to charity and changing the lives of countless people?

What if you're a broke, jerk, selfish hacker who gets tons of pussy?

~~~
randomtask
Super rich _and_ a virgin? Is that even possible? ;)

~~~
tomjen
If you want it to be yes.

------
cmos
An interesting book might be to collect a bunch of choice essays from people
about this same topic: "Growing up geek"

I'm sure there are some pretty cool stories, and it might help younger
generations get through their early years with a bit more confidence etc.

~~~
fugue88
That's a great idea! I sincerely think that you should do it.

------
pavelludiq
I had a more rebellious teenhood(drigs, drinking, other crimes*), it was fun,
but you didn't miss much. Last night i was hunting a pretty tricky bug in a
game im writing, all evening i was pounding my head, wondering why my code,
which should be working, didn't. When i figured it all out it was a wonderful
moment, i had defeated my self, i had become wiser. But unlike a good joint, i
couldn't share that with my friends.

------
opal
> I never even knew!

Exactly. And it seems you still don't understand what you missed. The essay
probably should have ended there.

\- Written as another person who also spent countless hours every single day
with programming/engineering for entire youth.

------
ii
Thank you.

The reason why old people keep telling this BS is that they just don't
understand what it is.

They can understand a person practicing musical instrument, they can
understand a person working with canvas and brushes, they can understand the
scientist sitting around his papers but they can't understand people doing the
same behind their computers.

Computers are the whole new medium: we need at least two more generations to
make it fully acceptable by average daddy and mommy.

------
endtwist
I like the way you put you reply, and it's interesting to get another point of
view.

To share my own present experience, I'm still in college myself and working
with nearly all of my free time on various projects of my own, summers
included. In contrast to you, though, I've kept up fairly well with the things
going on outside of my own world (please note this is not a knock on you).
While I haven't heard quite the same things you have, I've definitely heard
some fairly awful stories about what people get themselves up to with too much
time and not enough to do.

Even now, I can appreciate the concept that in the future, I'll already have a
significant amount of experience to rely on when I may have to address a
specific problem. Undoubtedly, it may be a little lonelier while you're
working your ass off to get ahead, but it also doesn't mean that a person has
to be totally isolated -- I still have a circle of friends, and go out on a
regular basis. I just may do it less often than a person who isn't working
quite as hard.

------
Trogs
I'm east indian but born and raised here. Both my parents were upper middle
class workers. The 'puter wasn't just encouraged, it was my babysitter from
when I was 9. I was friends with the cool kids and the geeks. I was some kind
of mashed up co-eek. I spent tons of hours in front of my 486, but I also went
to parties. One thing to note, back in those netscape/prodigy days, friends I
met online seemed to get me more than friends I had in reality. Maybe because
the online family and I always worked towards the same goal(s). Either way, I
don't talk to anyone from high school. In fact, I came to realize I didn't
like very many of them. Maybe cause I was smarter than 92% of them or I never
had a fundamental reason for enjoying their company, outside of their company
itself. All the friends I have now are from college. =)

~~~
thomasmallen
"Maybe cause I was smarter than 92% of them or I never had a fundamental
reason for enjoying their company"

Maybe they didn't care much for you because you looked down your nose at
everyone.

------
SCVirus
It may be good to be a geek, but looking at those who took the path of self-
destruction is not a good judgement on drug use or socialization (with those
profoundly different). When one seeking knowledge does drugs, they usually
become bored of the escapism quickly (unless they are depressed, or hate their
life, etc to the extent that they would rather never accotiate with another
human, and retreats into themself), and finds the other use of psychoactive
substances: 'Hacking' the mind. Different psychoactive substances highlight
different parts of the mind, some open doors, some help you understand others,
most[NOT ALL!!!] have value if you learn from the experiences like you learned
to use a computer. Socializing with those profoundly different then yourself
can teach you things about yourself you could never learn alone.

Of the people I commonly interact with, maybe 10% are 'geeks' (in the
stereotypical sense) and the rest run the gambit, from cleptomania, to
borderline psychotic to bipolar to disturbingly happy and sure of there own
'normalness' and everything inbetween.

I've learned something from these people: sanity, normality and reality, are
all subjective; defining people into groups is pointless and damaging. Being
sure of your own superiority for taking a more societally acceptable path no
doubt is 'normal' to you, but there are many on this earth who would rather
die a thousand deaths then spend more then the tiniest fraction of their lives
coding or solving problems in a 'made up world'.

Do what makes you happy, or what makes you feel fufilled, or fill whatever
else your need might be. But don't judge others for doing the same.

I do not know you, and cannot judge you, but I would recommend, however, that
if you truely have a desire for knowledge, to endevour to understand why
others choose the path of feel-goodism and why others shun the path of
knowledge and understanding (and the many other paths for that matter, but
this one is likely particularily relevent). (Look beyond, they are duped, or
they have problem x)

------
Allocator2008
My own view is that acquiring "geek skills" in one's teens and early twenties,
increases one's earning potential. From this, all else follows. I freely
admit, personally, I didn't have much of a social life in terms of high school
or even so much thereafter. I did however get my finger in the pie of the
bubble after graduating high school in '99, and that I think has given me more
insights in terms of things people do positive and negative in a start-up
environment. These insights I think can only help going forward, and so if,
even today, I probably do not consider myself a complete "socialite", that
simply isn't as important in the long run as earning potential, based on
exposure to start-up environments. And needless to say, in terms of "getting
laid", to be blunt about it, earning potential is an aphrodisiac. In my
experience, the beautiful can be bought! :-)

~~~
thomasmallen
Money's pretty boring stuff. It's a good feeling to get some, but give me a
good book and a good cup of coffee and I'm happy. Now competition, success,
etc: That's what's always keeping me going.

~~~
gaius
Money is freedom; it can't tell you what to do but if you know what you want,
it can make obstacles just go away.

