
Research into psychedelics, shut down for decades, is yielding results - juanplusjuan
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/09/TRIP-TREATMENT
======
cubano
I took a ton of acid (blotter) in the late 70's and early 80's as a teen, and
then again in the late 90's (window pane and liquid eyedrops), and I just have
to say, I, personally, have mixed feelings about this sort of thing being
heralded as some sort of metaphysical panacea.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I became addicted to opiates in the mid
2000's and lived as a zombified-but-somehow-functional heroin addict for about
4 years.

There is no doubt, in my personal case, that acid and mushrooms (that I often
hand-picked in cow pastures after rainstorms here in central Florida) gateway-
ed me into harder, destructive "escapes", and for that reason, I cannot fully
endorse this sort of thing.

I've had amazing trips where I literally felt as one with the group of friends
I was chilling with and created deep, transcendent bonds, and I've had a
select few shit ones where I felt totally alienated from every living soul
(but not nature, interestingly) on earth.

They did expand my consciousness, but looking back, I see now that it
introduced into my psyche a fairly deep distrust of authority and convention
which, under sober scrutiny, perhaps did little to help me always successfully
nagivate my life.

Treating the very sick and/or terminally ill with psychedelics makes great
sense to me; anything to ease those pains, but my own experience makes me want
to throw at least a dart of caution into the mix when it comes to making a
blanket statement about the benefits of LSD and such.

~~~
MichaelGG
There are a ton of very successful opiate addicts. OxyContin alone does around
$3BN of sales a year, in addition to other opiates and generics. It's safe to
say that not all of that is going to people in hospitals or on workman's comp.
While failed users are gonna generate a storyline and visible effects,
successful users aren't going to make a big deal out of it.

Heck, the commander of Germany's Air Force was a lifelong addict. Not that
he's a good role model, but that should dispel the idea that opiates kill the
ability to run a "successful" life (for some values of successful), in the
same way that FB using PHP should dispel idea that you can't write a world
class service in PHP.

Keep your eyes open in meetings with "successful" white collar people. If you
look carefully, you should not have a hard time finding plenty with pinned
pupils.

~~~
meowface
It'd be interesting to do an analysis of famous drug addicts and see if any
pattern emerges in their work.

For example, do amphetamine and cocaine addicts get more work done in the long
run? Are heavy psychedelic users more creative than average (examples like
Francis Crick's discovery while on LSD seems to point that way, but the sample
size is small)?

~~~
cubano
_For example, do amphetamine and cocaine addicts get more work done in the
long run?_

I can tell you from a lifetime of experience with addicts I've known that the
answer to this is absolutely "Hell NO".

Please do not try this at home, and take my word for it.

~~~
MichaelGG
And Paul Erdos, one of the most prolific mathematicians, would say the
opposite:

[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erd%C5%91s](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erd%C5%91s)

He took speed everyday, and said it gave him great ideas. On a bet, he stopped
taking them for a month, and said that month was a waste of time.

I suspect most successful speed users aren't going to talk about it like he
did.

~~~
cubano
Sure...play with fire, I sure did. I would never tell anyone (except maybe as
a suggestion to my kids, due to the troubles in my life) not to.

Prescribed attention deficit disorder medication non-withstanding, coke and
meth addicts are just ticking time bombs.

I know a bunch of speed (meth) users who truly believe that are being super
productive, but in the end all they have to show for it is scrubbed concrete,
an empty bank account, and psychosis.

These are just my personal experiences as a 48yo who has been deeply involved
with recreational drugs since age 13.

~~~
saiya-jin
now you're mixing apples and... uranium ore. next step is extrapolating
heroin/crack/meth addiction drawbacks to alcohol and tobacco addicts, right?

I tried shrooms roughly 10-15x in my life, gradually found a way to get most
out of the experience (instead of 5-6 hours of mediocre intensity having 2-3
hours of pure joy). Never tried anything harder/different than this & pot, so
there goes gateway thingie. I don't even know how to describe what I've been
trough, but always purely positive extremely intensive experience. FOr me it's
not social drug like pot. In fact, when trying to walk around in broad
daylight, meeting people etc. the struggle to look normal was literally
killing whole trip, since reality was much stronger info feed to my brain.

Since it's digested, after laying down in bed and closing eyes, I would
describe the event as gradually losing all senses and connection with body. My
self dissolving into something like a mist, breaking into atoms and just
hovering. I am an atheist, but it was always very spiritual experience (to me
it explains a bit why there are so many religions - we have it built in
somehow). Coming back from trip was not instant, always like going down some
massive mountain, step by step, discovering your senses and body again (you
don't realize that you are "seeing" without anyhow utilizing your eyes, until
you start getting them back. Same for rediscovery of hands for example).

Would I advise these to anybody? Nope. As article said, if one has some deep
issues, this can unearth them. But so can excessive alcohol and other stuff
(one of my ex' father had schyzophrenia attack triggered by excessive
drinking, stayed with him whole life after that accident). Is this an issue of
psychedelics? No, just us. They are just powerful tool, nothing more.

That being said, didn't have ones for couple of years, mostly because they are
not easily accessible (collecting wild mushrooms can bring nasty poisoning if
you mix them up for others, and I don't feel up for Tor orders :)). They are
definitely not addictive, in fact after each experience being so hugely
intense, I didn't feel the curiosity for quite some time. Also, trip being
super intense, after it I always get terrible headache from my brain being
literally owerworked.

I say everybody who is mentally OK (strong condition here) should try them
once. I think mankind overall would look better, and be happier :)

~~~
kaffeemitsahne
> _I say everybody who is mentally OK (strong condition here) should try them
> once._

It's a bit of a problem here that you cannot really know whether people are
actually mentally okay, even if they seem so.

------
snikeris
Includes an interesting account of Robert Jesse's (former Oracle VP, software
engineer) efforts to resurrect this research:

When the history of second-wave psychedelic research is written, Bob Jesse
will be remembered as one of two scientific outsiders who worked for years,
mostly behind the scenes, to get it off the ground.

~~~
Alex3917
For those who haven't seen them, his talks are highly worth watching and will
completely change your ideas about religion:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM-
yinhpOgQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM-yinhpOgQ)

[http://vimeo.com/10968562](http://vimeo.com/10968562)

~~~
msane
> will completely change your ideas about religion

Sort of presumptive.

~~~
Alex3917
Keep in mind that I can see how many views those videos have. I can also see
what the best selling books on religion are on Amazon, how many copies of the
books he references are sold each week, how many views the most popular
YouTube videos on religion have, etc. So it's not difficult to say that even
if he is drawing from the most famous works in the academic study of religion,
which he is, most people here probably haven't been exposed to those ideas.

And as for why most people here would be convinced, he has an engineering and
science background, and his talks are largely aimed at engineers and
scientists.

FWIW he's not trying to get you to 'believe' in religion, whatever that means.
Rather, his points are more along the lines of that scientists should learn
more about the academic study of religion and the commonalities between
religion and science, rather than allowing the discourse on religion to be set
by extremists.

------
Pyret
_“I didn’t want there to be an easy way out,” she recently told me. “I wanted
him to fight.”_

Attitude that keeps everything stagnant and backwards.

~~~
MichaelGG
It's repulsive how people think "no pain no gain". I think that might be some
of the resistance against sucralose. It's a free ride. Same for the attitude
about addiction. It's viewed as intrinsically bad, instead of just evaluating
it in context of benefits.

~~~
WiseWeasel
It's a very Catholic mentality, the notion that sin is atoned for with
suffering. It would seem entirely foreign to a Buddhist, for example, who
would see fortune as a result of accrued karma.

~~~
tptacek
Catholics don't believe sin is atoned for with suffering.

Sacrifice and repentance? Yes. Suffering? No.

~~~
MichaelGG
What about purgatory?

~~~
tptacek
Over 12 years of Catholic education I was taught that the whole concept of
purgatory had been repudiated. But looking it up now, it seems to have been
resuscitated, albeit as a sort of "waiting period" for souls that hadn't fully
reconciled with God.

In any case, at least in the modern Church, the concept of purgatory isn't an
endorsement of the benefits of suffering.

~~~
DonHopkins
Have you ever considered the possibility that for over 12 years of Catholic
education, you were being lied to, and that many of the things you devoutly
believe without question are simply not true?

Case in point: your false beliefs that fly in the face of all the evidence
(much of it from their own doctrine, statements and actions) that the Catholic
Church believes and preaches that sin is atoned for with suffering. Haven't
you ever heard of that guy named "Jesus"? Isn't there a commandment that says
you're not supposed to lie?

Penn and Teller and Christopher Hitchens certainly make a strong case that the
Catholic Church and Mother Teresa and Bill Donohue are obsessed with suffering
and totally full of Bullshit.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6voAW_Go5Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6voAW_Go5Y)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UR-0Kdff4M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UR-0Kdff4M)

~~~
72deluxe
I am not Catholic, but to assert that he devoutly believes things without
question is a big assertion.

For myself, to believe something I question it first. We should extend the
same courtesy to others - they surely question things first.

------
state
"During each session, which would last the better part of a day, Mettes would
lie on the couch wearing an eye mask and listening through headphones to a
carefully curated playlist—Brian Eno, Philip Glass, Pat Metheny, Ravi
Shankar."

This strikes me as sort of funny. For someone completely unfamiliar with this
stuff I would imagine encountering it to be pretty trippy on its own.

~~~
notmarkus
I imagined this as, "There's no music here. These are just notes." 45 minutes
later -- "Oh."

------
joncooper
If you're interested in this, check out MAPS:
[http://www.maps.org/](http://www.maps.org/)

They are doing a great deal to push this research forward and have been for
decades.

~~~
DonHopkins
John Gilmore, founder of the EFF, is on the board of directors, as is David
Bronner, president of Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps and grandson of Dr. Bronner
himself. Dilute! Dilute! Dilute!

------
benten10
While this is undoubtedly exciting, lets not forget what should be for us
(specially people in the technology who have seen waves of the same 'fad' come
over and go) this paragraph from the article:

>The first wave of research into psychedelics was doomed by an excessive
exuberance about their potential. For people working with these remarkable
molecules, it was difficult not to conclude that they were suddenly in
possession of news with the power to change the world—a psychedelic
gospel[...]It didn’t take long for once respectable scientists such as Leary
to grow impatient with the rigmarole of objective science. He came to see
science as just another societal “game,” a conventional box it was time to
blow up—along with all the others.

Special emphasis on the last sentence.

~~~
nemo1618
Indeed, though I'm a little more optimistic this time around. I think Leary
and the rest assumed LSD was more-or-less guaranteed to produce profound
spiritual insights in anyone who took it. Therefore, the primary problem was
distribution: once LSD was available to the general public, society was
guaranteed to "wake up."

Obviously, this was mistaken. Many people did take acid, have direct
experiences of divine revelation, and go on to live happier, more fulfilled
lives because of it. But many also took it primarily as a deliriant; they took
it for fun, saw some neat visual hallucinations, maybe offended some people,
maybe got wrapped up in a paranoid delusion. Or, even if they did "wake up,"
their excited babbling could appear very disturbing to observers, who often
had no frame of reference for what the drug-user was going through. I'm sure
it scared the hell out of a lot of them.

Clearly, psychedelics aren't a panacea for society's problems. But what we're
seeing now is a return to the more reserved approach of administrating these
drugs in a controlled setting, and primarily for the purpose of psychotherapy.
I think psychedelics have a bright future as long as we avoid trying to
"change the world" and focus on just helping one person at a time. I don't
fault Leary for his optimism, but ultimately I wonder if he did more harm than
good.

~~~
clapas
Every person is different, and every trip is different. You must learn what
helps you.

~~~
itistoday2
Can we stop with random the downvoting?

Clapas is on topic and contributing to the discussion. That means no
downvoting.

~~~
failed_ideas
HN is a fickle beast, one I've quit several times for being down voted to
oblivion for a humours but on topic, relevant and quite poignant comment. And
the very next story on the topic had almost the exact same joke as top comment
by a well known handle. I've seen vulgarity posted in the top comment, but
been down voted for using the word bullshit when referring to something that
was complete and utter nonsense. Don't kid yourself, just because the topics
are intellectual, doesn't mean all those with voting rights are.

~~~
itistoday2
Misha, is that really you? Come away with me to redder pastures, this place is
no good for you. We can use their downvotes as cover to hide our
communications. (See my profile! No matter what happens remember that I love
you, and tell the others!)

------
shanra88
Mention of "ego-less" state etc sound just like the teachings of hindu masters
like Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadatta Maharaj...

~~~
avodonosov
Yes, I noticed that too.

From previous thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8940650](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8940650)

Related:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death)

------
superobserver
Fascinating research. I just hope the same mistakes aren't repeated and a
really rigorous and robust effort is made to find what sorts of applications
these substances can be used for. I'm reminded of LSD microdosing by
scientists to improve innovation that had been done before, but I am unaware
of to what degree it really bore any viable fruit.

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
Allegedly one of the forces working against LSD research is the popular
narrative about how SSRIs work: the idea that higher serotonin is good. The
primary mechanism of LSD appears to be serotonin agonism. In a hand-wavy way
you can argue that elevated serotonin numbs a mammal and dulls perception of
the world, and that reducing it makes thought and senses more vivid. An LSD
trip is arguably the experience of removing the filters.

The idea that SSRIs even boost serotonin levels is probably wrong. The
mechanisms of action are more complicated than that. But the serotonin
narrative is well established and in use by a multi-billion dollar industry.

~~~
task_queue
Agonism isn't antagonism. Though, some of the first and newer antidepressants
are antagonists or mixed agonist/antagonist. Some forgo significant SERT
binding altogether.

Their simple narrative wouldn't have been torn apart by LSD research anymore
than the industries other offerings.

------
eli_gottlieb
I'm sure the drugs can have therapeutic uses. I'm also just as sure that they
don't reveal any kind of metaphysical Higher Reality, and we should stop
addressing them as if they did. They _merely_ alter your brain functioning in
certain ways.

------
FranOntanaya
"The data are still being analyzed and have not yet been submitted to a
journal for peer review"

Maybe the NewYorker could have waited for that to happen.

------
dwaltrip
With the proper approach and care, these substances can be incredibly powerful
and beneficial. I can't wait until the research eventually forces the hand of
those who mistakenly believe otherwise. Psylocybin and perhaps LSD should be
legal on some level in our lifetime hopefully.

~~~
kbart
"I can't wait until the research eventually forces the hand of those who
mistakenly believe otherwise."

I wouldn't be so optimistic, we still can't even "prove" to some that
vaccination is beneficial. Even if research found a valid application for
hallucinogens, I doubt they will be legal or widely available in anytime soon
except, maybe, as carefully dosed therapy drug in extreme cases (pretty much
like opiates).

~~~
lsdaccounthn
The vaccination situation proves that there are idiots in the world, if you
take those people as example of "can't prove X" then we might as well stop all
scientific research right now. There's also people who believe the world is
only a few thousand years old.

To get societal (and legal) change, you don't need to convince 100% of the
crazies. Convincing most of the sane people is enough.

(I'm not saying only crazies are against psychedelics, just that the
vaccination comparison isn't useful.)

------
lorddoig
With other recent news in mind, I wonder what effect compounds like these
might have on religious extremists. I wonder whether - assuming some kind of
method of administration is figured out (a love bomb?) - they might stop
burning people alive in cages after a decent trip.

~~~
michaelochurch
Unfortunately, it would probably make them worse. While mysticism and
political extremism are loosely correlated and probably zero-to-negatively
correlated once one controls for a general "religiosity" variable, at least
some of these assholes in extremist movements are clearly not strangers to
altered consciousness... and they're still extremist assholes.

Intention (set and setting) plays a major role. These drugs aren't "evil" and
don't seem to corrupt good people, but when bad people use these drugs, they
become more bad. (Source: lots of personal observation. I lived in
Williamsburg for a few years.) I've seen plenty of people turn for the worse
after using MDMA, LSD, psilocybin. All that said, I don't think it's _just_
the drugs; it's also the environment, and probably the combination of the
environment and the drugs in truth. Being around unhealthy people, often with
bad intentions, makes for poor health.

A skilled therapist may be able to use the suggestibility of a willing person
in a psychedelic state to purge him of harmful ideas... but that starts
getting into a territory that some people find uncomfortable (sounds like
"brainwashing").

I'm not saying that these drugs shouldn't be studied. There's no good reason
for us to be 40 years behind in our understanding of these compounds and their
effects on the mind. I think that they can clearly do a lot of good; but they
aren't panaceas and, while I wish they could cure us of "the problem of evil",
I'm not quite that optimistic.

------
bunkydoo
As someone who has done their fair share of psychedelics - I would feel like a
coward consuming these substances if I had a terminal illness. If I knew damn
straight that I was gonna die, I wouldn't want to numb it up with a substance.
I'd want every minute of pain, suffering, and emotional baggage to be taken on
with a sober mind.

But that is my personal choice. I would say it's probably a very positive
thing on the other hand for people like Patrick who never consumed these
substances. DMT might be the best one for someone who is dying, as it is
hypothesized that pineal gland floods an endogenous version of this chemical
into your bloodstream upon death. Consuming it prior to death could
potentially work as a "practice run" to help cope with the real thing as sad
as it sounds.

~~~
wyager
The whole "DMT release upon death" thing has very little supporting evidence.
[https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_article2.shtml](https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_article2.shtml)

~~~
emacsfodder
Quite, pretty much zero supporting evidence.

------
skidoo
I learned more about the world from DMT than in all my years of school.

~~~
lsdaccounthn
Tell a story? :)

~~~
skidoo
My last biggie voyage also involved an anointing with Abramelin oil, and I was
trying to focus on a copy of the Hermit card from a Tarot deck. By this time I
was very deep into using DMT as a meditation tool, and on this occasion I was
really pushing my luck.

I sat on the back deck of a cousin's cabin, fairly removed from the modern
world, and a massive electrical storm was slowly gathering through the
evening. For most folks I've spoken with DMT trips last 10 to 15 minutes, but
for me they last hours. I'm still unsure as to whether this was due to a
stronger variety of crystal we were growing, or because I was giving myself to
it that much more.

Suffice to say, on that night the world around me became pulsating molecules,
everything connected like neon blueprints going 3-D and contorting and
revolving around themselves, extending into and beyond everything. The
raindrops were merely pulses, the colors like waves flowing softly around me.
It grew to be a violent storm, but the passivity I felt, especially from the
benevolence of the bright Felix-the-Cat-like elves whose eyes would at times
appear in the arrangements of atoms about me...I knew that no matter what
happened around me, I had a strong center, strong enough to enable my survival
of virtually anything. I was the only stillness in the universe.

It sounds silly, I'm sure, but I have known fear by no means and in no
circumstances since that night, almost two years ago. Religion strengthens the
soul for some. DMT reinforced my spine, and my faith in myself.

~~~
lsdaccounthn
Doesn't sound silly to me. If you like DMT and it lasts longer for you, have
you tried acid too? Can be much milder than DMT, but much longer trips.
Personally when I smoke DMT (well, changa) it lasts 5-15min so I enjoy it as
an experience, but doesn't let me really do any interesting thinking like LSD
does. That said, I've only tried DMT a few times (haven't "broken through"
yet), but do have a couple of grams waiting for me when I can get somewhere to
pick it up...

~~~
skidoo
I tried quite a lot of acid in my New England college days. I did have some
curious times, but it just doesn't compare to DMT. I am the first to say that
I do not think tripping is for everyone, and I have had some bad acid trips
(which were probably even more informative than the good ones), but my times
with DMT really made me rethink the silliness of "spirituality without
religion". I think even in my hardest acid trips, somewhere in my grey matter
I stayed aware that it was ultimately senses being toyed with. DMT felt like
something was talking back, even though the five sense barely applied.

I heard an intelligent music reviewer say once how the greatest music is
difficult to quickly describe in words. That's DMT in a nutshell.

All said, I hope you do "break through" someday. It is nothing but beautiful
and inspiring, mindfuck or no mindfuck.

~~~
lsdaccounthn
I just picked up my changa, smoked a little in a spliff but didn't do much
(very, very wrong setting, wasn't expecting much - am away from home and was
outside). Thinking of getting a bong in the morning, though as I've quit weed
and soon will be living somewhere I can't smoke indoors feels like a slightly
annoying cost.. Either way, shall be trying to break through when I get home
tomorrow night or Saturday - have got equivalent to 1g of pure dmt (2g changa)
ready to play with :)

------
clapas
TL;DR I grow magic mushrooms myself and can asure there is a mystic experience
on eating them. I do not eat them often, but it helps me everytime with a new
perspective.

------
lsdaccounthn
Using a throwaway as while I'll talk openly to some friends/family, I don't
want my handle and lsd to show up together on Google.

This is a story, an anecdote, and while my view on LSD is positive as a
result, definitely shouldn't be read as an endorsement of my actions.

I'm the perfect example of somebody who shouldn't go near psychedelics. I've
suffered depression most of my life, and was recently diagnosed as bipolar,
though I've only had two _real_ manic episodes. But.. I'm also someone who
does stupid things, possibly because of not just despite those things. I've
abused coke, benzodiazepines, mdma, alcohol and weed. But never to an extent
people around me might notice a problem.

A little while ago, I fell in love with my best friend. It was really fucking
hard to deal with (after a few months of hoping it would go away I told her,
talked it through and we set about trying to get rid of the awkwardness of
staying friends), harder than any other life/love problems I've had. For 6
months I was depressed, had no appetite.. I was forcing myself to eat one meal
a day because despite never getting hungry I knew I needed to. Friends told me
the appetite was related to my feelings, but I stubbornly dismissed that as
pop science - meanwhile I was kind of happy about the appetite, as I was
losing inches from my waist.

Then I took LSD for the first time. It was nothing like I'd expected it to be
(in my imagination it would be like entering a new world, not just altering
the way your mind works in the current world), but it was lovely. A few hours
into that trip, I started thinking about my friend. I realised that while I
still felt the same way about her.. it didn't hurt any more. It was like this
clarity just appeared over the situation that there's nothing I can do about
it, so I shouldn't let it hurt me. While under the influence I realised it
would probably be back to normal when I woke up the next day, but then it
wasn't. I woke up feeling the same way I had while tripping, went into the
office, and by lunchtime I was feeling hungry for literally the first time in
half a year.

Now I'm in a slightly different place. I'm no longer abusing <something> on a
daily basis (the last thing to go was daily weed smoking). I've no interest in
benzos or MDMA. I still love coke, but hardly ever do it (twice in the last 18
months, both times someone else's suggestion, both times I didn't want more
the next day). And psychedelics... I haven't done them much lately, but have
an order on-route from dark net markets of LSD and DMT, largely motivated by
wanting some more internal soul searching.

I was hugely grateful to the LSD for that effect it had on me. I've used it
quite a few times since then, though it's never made such an impact since. But
lately I've been starting to feel down about her again. I don't know if it can
help me again.

Long story short... I'm not saying any of my actions were/are sensible or the
results deserved. Nor that LSD would help everyone who was in my situation.
But as a single anecdote (and hopefully interesting story), it opened my eyes
to believing in the sort of trials being described by this article. My pre-
existing mental conditions mean I'm probably unlikely to get approved for
anything like this, even when it reaches wider access, but if I could, I'd
jump at the chance to go through psychedelic therapy with expert scientists
guiding me rather than doing it on my own.

(Incidentally: who knows, maybe my next tab will turn me into a schizophrenic:
but in the ~15 trips I've had on acid, I'm yet to have a single "bad trip".
Same goes for the few times I've tried DMT.)

