

Ask HN: What to do next in my career? - doubter

TL;DR: Where could I find a decent balance between paycheck/technology/career progression/work-life balance in London?<p>Hi fellow HN's,<p>I'll have to move to London soon, in the next months. I'm a senior software developer (8+ years) with some experience with Scala. I do some coding in my free time (small things and one side-project I expect to publish soon) and I collaborate in a small open-source project for the community of a framework. I'm married, so some family responsibilities here.<p>I've spent my career in boring Java shops, not as much innovation and usage of new technologies as I'd like. London offers a lot of choice in IT and a couple of talks I recently had made me doubt where to apply.<p>I'd like a company where I can use interesting state-of-the-art technology.<p>I'd like real career progression.<p>I'd like to have a decent life-work balance, don't mind some extra time but I run away from 60h/week as a standard or 20% travel, I have a wife.<p>I'd like decent pay as London is not cheap (I've already had a bad experience with an offer of £45k/year. I was expecting more like £55-£60 from what I've seen and my experience)<p>I'm not sure whhich kind of company should I apply to: financial related companies, big companies (like O2) or something smaller like Mind Candy?<p>I initially discarded financial as I assumed it would be long hours and legacy code (and I don't dig suits) but a recent oconversation mention that it may be normal hours (37.5h/week), very decent pay and benefits and interesting technology. Is that true?<p>On the other hand, big companies may have better benefits and may be easier to get a promotion, but they may use "boring" technology; while a smaller company may give less benefits but a better work environment, although I'd fear the pay check differences.<p>So: Where could I find a decent balance between paycheck/technology/career progression/work-life balance in London?
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RyanZAG
You sound like you're centering a big decision in your life around language
choice because it sounds like 'interesting technology'. I'd recommend skipping
this - the technology isn't the important part, it's what you're doing with
it.

Also, 'interesting technology' and '37.5h/week' are often directly at odds,
especially in the financial industry. When you're using old, boring technology
then you know it's been used to do what you're doing with it 100s of times
before. This means no surprises, fairly easy estimations of work length, and
most important for a consistent work week - lots of older developers and
managers who are more interested in their next golf game than using their
weekend to hack in new tech.

Basically what I'm getting at is that you need to decide your priorities - are
you looking for an interesting job, or a stable job? Once you decide that, you
can do some negotiation in interviews and culture fit to find where you want
to work. Trying to optimize two things at once and still get hired is much
tougher.

~~~
doubter
you have a point here, thanks :)

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Doches
How about Palantir? They've got a London office, do interesting work (and
would value your Java experience), and definitely pay well. They tend to work
with government or financial clients; I'm not sure which the London folks
focus on. Also, they have a pretty interesting mix of 'boring' (Java desktop
apps & server infrastructure) and more modern (HTML5 & mobile clients)
technologies. And they work with some clients that have...interesting
problems.

~~~
jomo_jomo
We focus on both, and you should definitely consider applying.

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zerr
For the interview, is it possible to select only "Systems Design Interview"
and maybe "Coding Interview"?

For the appropriate positions of course.

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kevinprince
I am a senior developer at O2 in our labs team, drop me an email
kevin.prince@o2.com as we are hiring right now and its always good to chat.

~~~
doubter
I will, thanks!

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rtb
How about Softwire? <http://www.softwire.com>

We tick all your boxes. Tech: We use interesting state-of-the-art and varied
technology (I just finished a Rails project; I've done plenty of Java work at
Softwire). Career: We are a small(ish) company growing fast so there is
opportunity to define new roles and help us manage the transition into a
larger company. Work/life: We don't work long hours; generally 38-40h/week.
Pay: We pay very well (I don't think we can compete with some of the financial
companies, of course).

Here's the official blurb from our recruitment manager:

Softwire is an extremely successful and vibrant software company offering
bespoke software development services in a diverse range of sectors including
media, security, online retail, travel, finance, publishing and insurance. We
are currently looking for software developers with prior commercial experience
to work in our offices based in London (NW5) and Bristol. We have placed in
the top twenty of the Sunday Times Best Small Companies awards for the past
three years running, and employees will tell you that this is a truly great -
and probably unique - place to work. We combine a relaxed and friendly
environment with a superb all-round package of benefits including:

\- Varied and interesting work that will keep you on your toes day in, day
out. \- Great remuneration – all employees reap the rewards of our joint
efforts, and a guaranteed 60% of profits is distributed to staff via annual
bonus. \- Flexible working time and conditions and no pressure to regularly
work long hours. \- Focused training, rapid personal development, and the
opportunity to take on elevated levels of responsibility early in your career
\- Frequent social events and company outings.

Applicants must have demonstrated excellence in previous employment and
possess impeccable academic records - usually straight As at A-level (or
equivalent) and a good degree from a top university. You will need stand-out
ability and enthusiasm in order to be successful.

~~~
doubter
Seems interesting, will check more about it, thanks!

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ig1
It's very hard to speak generally about tech in finance, you're talking about
a sector that employs tens of thousands of developers in London. Some of them
are going to be working on boring legacy code and working long hours others
are going to be working on cutting edge technology with sensible work-life
balance.

Even within different teams at an investment bank you'll likely see huge
variations in tech and hours worked.

Speaking more broadly you can find all the things you want in all three
different types of company (small / big / finance), it's more about the
culture of the specific firm.

Something you might want to consider is becoming a contractor and contracting
at a few different places until you find somewhere you'd be comfortable
becoming permie.

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landonia
If I was you, I would think about Ontology. They are working on some really
cool stuff related to be able to query multiple data sources as if they were
one (much much more than this of course) and they are based in Kings Cross,
London. I would imagine that their salaries reflect the kind of work that they
do. If I was looking for a job similar to you I would be contacting them.

~~~
doubter
I'll check them, thanks!

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kamakazizuru
I dont know much about london - but its rare and unlikely to find all of what
you want in one place - there probably needs to be a compromise somewhere -
the economy is not great and if you want something that pays well - but also
doesnt want you working more than 40 hours a week (what job is only 40 hours a
week any more other than checkout jobs at supermarkets or governement jobs?) -
and will still promote you regularly enough (given that you're working 40
hours a week and not going over and above in your efforts). My concrete
suggestion (because im not a big fan of just criticising without providing
something concrete in return) would be to find a place that pays you well
enough to look after your family - and lets you do something you like. IF
you're doing something you like and are growing into newer areas - you'll
thrive - and you'll be positioned to be exposed to further opportunities in
those areas - one or the other of which might be that opportunity that ticks
of all the boxes for you!

~~~
rtb
> (what job is only 40 hours a week any more other than checkout jobs at
> supermarkets or governement jobs?

I think this is an American perspective. Plenty of very good jobs in Europe
and London in particular are 40 hour weeks. Plenty of research shows that
people are more productive in the long term working 40h/wk.

~~~
kamakazizuru
I wonder - Im speaking from a German perspective :)

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aaronbrethorst
How about Google? <http://www.google.com/about/jobs/locations/london/>

If you didn't _have_ to be in London, I'd highly recommend looking at Red
Gate. They're, by far, the best company I've ever worked with:
<http://www.red-gate.com>

~~~
doubter
Thanks for answering. As much as I'd love to work there, I already applied but
after going all the way to on-site interviews, I wasn't hired.

My mistake as I applied to SRE and probably I should have gone for Software
Developer instead, but too late for that now.

It has to be London, a pity as I read fantastic things about Red-Gate :)

~~~
tensafefrogs
They would probably let you reapply for the different position. You should
try.

~~~
doubter
I asked and they said "try in 1.5 years" so... maybe then :)

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valdiorn
> I initially discarded financial as I assumed it would be long hours and
> legacy code (and I don't dig suits) but a recent oconversation mention that
> it may be normal hours (37.5h/week), very decent pay and benefits and
> interesting technology. Is that true?

You can end up in finance doing SAP integration, spending most of your day
thinking about the quickest way to get fired... or, you can end up in finance
writing distributed real-time software for high-frequency trading, solving
cutting edge technical problems while also raking in cash. The choice is
yours.

(I mention this only because I once applied for a London based job. The
description was almost exactly what I just wrote, with a salary of 150,000 GBP
annually. Unfortunately I didn't get the job, but hey, worth a shot :)

~~~
doubter
I may need to check those offers in more detail, I just wonder what kind of
life-work balance there will be :)

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michaelochurch
Don't rule companies out because they're in the financial space. If you refuse
to work for finance in, say, NYC, then you'll be unemployed often because
that's a lot of what's out there.

Code quality problems aren't limited to finance and the people in finance are,
on average, somewhat better than (at least) the NYC startup crowd. (There are
good people in each, of course, and bad.)

I don't know the UK scene, but if you're certainly moving to London, you
shouldn't rule out finance. Even though there are some terrible financial
firms out there, I don't think that the whole set of financial companies is,
as a category, any worse than other businesses (including startups). Those
blue-sky R&D jobs (to which finance might compare poorly) are so rare and
inaccessible to our generation that one can assume them not to exist in the
corporate world (at least, not in the U.S.).

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jorgeortiz85

        If you refuse to work for finance in, say, NYC, then
        you'll be unemployed often because that's a lot of what's
        out there.
    

Nonsense. NYC has a blossoming startup scene. Many prominent startups (Tumblr,
Etsy, 10gen, Foursquare, Kickstarter, OkCupid, Mashable, BuzzFeed,
SecondMarket, ZocDoc, Fab, Birchbox, Gilt, Seamless) are based in NYC, and
many large tech companies (Google, Facebook, Twitter, eBay) have growing NYC
offices.

List of tech companies in NYC: <http://nytm.org/made-in-nyc/grid>

Map of tech companies in NYC: <http://mappedinny.com/>

~~~
michaelochurch
The startups are there and they pay well for someone in his 20s, but by the
time you're 35 and looking to raise a family, you've priced yourself out of
non-financial jobs (if you need to stay in NYC) unless you're independently
wealthy or extremely well-established.

This is much of why I think the future is elsewhere. Not NYC, not the Valley.
It's going to be somewhere where it's possible for a normal 40-year-old to
have a career as a programmer (not a manager who occasionally codes) because
it genuinely takes decades to become great at this stuff. Most of these
"social" apps could be built by anyone, but if I needed a medical device, or
an extremely high-performance numeric library, I'd rather the code be written
by a seasoned gray-haired guy who understands technology at a deep level than
by the sorts of people in charge at a lot of the startups where I've worked.

~~~
ig1
The median household income in NYC is $48,631, as an average software
developer at an average startup you'll already be earning significantly more
than most families.

Sure if you work in finance you can earn more, but it's about funding a more
lavish life-style than a necessity. Pretending anything else is insulting to
the millions of families who are living on less.

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wellboy
Stop making career and start making a life. (Finally try that idea you always
wanted to do)

Do that for 2 months and then get a contracting job where you charge £60/h if
you need money.

~~~
doubter
Well, I'd like to believe career and life can both be achieved, it's all just
a matter of managing yourself. That said, contractor life doesn't appeal to me
too much right now. But thanks for the comment :)

