
Security theater martial law and a tale that trumps every cop-n-donut joke ever - dfc
http://www.popehat.com/2013/04/20/security-theater-martial-law-and-a-tale-that-trumps-every-cop-and-donut-joke-youve-ever-heard/
======
kevincennis
I keep hearing people claim that this was an overreaction, and frankly, it
sort of confuses me.

Here's what we know happened before the lockdown:

\- These two suspects allegedly planted two bombs that killed three and
injured over 170 others.

\- These two suspects allegedly killed an MIT police officer.

\- These two suspects allegedly carjacked an SUV and held its driver captive
for some time.

\- During a chase with police, these suspects allegedly threw homemade
explosive devices at law enforcement.

What we don't seem to know yet (and definitely didn't at the time):

\- Did they have more explosives? There's certainly reason to believe they may
have.

\- Did they have other attacks planned? We don't know one way or the other,
and that's sort of the point.

I really don't think it's unreasonable that given what we knew, and especially
what we didn't, residents of Boston (myself included) were asked to stay
indoors while authorities attempted to locate suspect #2. Remember, they
didn't lock the city down immediately after the bombing. They did it after
what the Boston police commissioner is calling the "execution" of an MIT
police officer, a carjacking, multiple IED detonations (or attempted
detonations, I'm not totally clear), and a shootout with police in a
residential neighborhood.

~~~
wtvanhest
Further, I live in Boston and they didn't say you couldn't go outside, they
just advised you not to. I walked across the Boston Common where people were
playing with their dogs and grabbed a coffee from the coffee shop.

People from outside of Boston probably didn't realize it, but it was really
just 1 neighborhood locked down with the mass transit everywhere else not
working.

Weird day? Yes! Martial law? No.

~~~
corresation
Is Boston normally an incredibly quiet city? Incredulous at reports of the
lockdown I looked at Boston highway cameras and it was close to a ghosttown.
Helicopter video feeds of the Boston downtown showed, again, a ghosttown.
Various post-apocalyptic pictures have emerged of Boston proper with hardly a
soul in site.

I have never been to Boston (though will soon en route to a Patriots game),
however I find it hard to believe it is normally that quiet.

~~~
jonheller
No, it's not. Pictures like that never happened. I know it's anecdote and all,
but all of the 15 or so people I know who work in Boston, did not work on
Friday.

------
pivo
We weren't forced to stay at home, nobody was arrested for being on the
street, it was entirely voluntary. I think most people here were pretty happy
with the outcome too. I simply don't have anything to complain about with
regard to how the city handled the situation. In fact, that both suspects were
accounted for by the end of the day was for me almost too good to be true.

~~~
larrys
"We weren't forced to stay at home"

People who weren't able to go to work and aren't salary most likely won't be
paid. Or, employers will have to pay to employees who performed no work. The
money has to come from somewhere, right? Unless of course the government wants
to spread the cost over all the citizens and cover all expenses. And
everything that comes as a result of the lockdown or whatever you want to call
it.

Ficticiously I can tell you that if I had servers located in that area and
something happened where they couldn't be fixed remotely and were down (for an
unrelated reason) I'd be pretty upset if the tech people or remote hands
weren't at their job. Or the new motherboard couldn't be installed because the
repairman wouldn't go to the colo. Why? Because my customers that are all over
the world aren't going to give me a pass on this nor do I want to make excuses
as to why things aren't working. Further, this was not an "act of god" in the
sense of a disaster that there was no control over (a person made the decision
to "suggest" nobody go outside and that will have consequences).

It's easy for people who have only minor things as a result of a lockdown
(cancelled classes or you work for a big corporation or you are unemployed)
but not everybody falls into the same category. We all aren't government
employees who get paid regardless, right?

The point is simply that a cost benefit calculation needs to be done. (Like
they do when they try to justify hosting the Olympics or Superbowl). The
comparison (if correct I haven't checked) to Detroit is valid somewhat.
Obviously in any case we can assume that if there was 1 or 2 of these bombings
per month any city wouldn't be shutting down they would realize that it simply
can't be handled that way.

Fwiw - I'm not in the Boston area and had no consequences as a result of the
decision.

~~~
kevincennis
> Ficticiously I can tell you that if I had servers located in that area and
> something happened where they couldn't be fixed remotely and were down (for
> an unrelated reason) I'd be pretty upset if the tech people or remote hands
> weren't at their job.

If I were the guy who was supposed to be working on your servers, I suspect
I'd be much more concerned about the apprehension of a suspected terrorist (or
murderer, if you prefer that term) than I would be with a customer's
disapproval of a lock-down decision I had no control over. I don't see myself
losing much sleep over the fact that you were "pretty upset".

~~~
larrys
"I suspect I'd be much more concerned about the apprehension"

I suggest then that you try building up from scratch a business using your own
money, time and effort over the course of many many years where you have large
customers that can and easily drop you and see if you feel the same way.

Have you ever owned a business where you have major customers that expect
everything will just work and the buck stops with you?

Many things in the world work this way no excuses matter. Same as if you are
taking a LSAT or MCAT test which will determine if you are going to get
admitted to a good school or an OK school and something happens where you
don't do well on the test it doesn't matter why. You suffer the consequences.

------
thoughtsimple
I lost a lot of respect for popehat after reading that. How do you measure the
cost of people's lives? The shelter in place request was just that, a request.
It was to help law enforcement do their jobs. It clearly worked.

He makes reference to the DC snipers but fails to mention the cost of having
those terrorists free for weeks. In Boston both men were caught in a matter of
days with no more civilians hurt. I'll take Boston's solution over that of
DC's. He also doesn't seem to take into account the very large number of non-
fatal injuries sustained. And the potential for even more given the use of
explosives. Trying to minimize the risk by discounting the injuries and only
considering fatalities is pretty shallow analysis.

Also making light of the police and donuts does not improve my opinion of his
stance.

~~~
dspeyer
You have to be willing to measure the cost of lives. No one likes doing it,
but there's always opportunities to spend a lot of money to save a few lives,
and a limited amount of money. If you don't make tradeoffs intelligently and
deliberately, you wind up trading many lives for few lives.

~~~
kvb
Sure, but that goes both ways. What's the monetary value of the peace of mind
of people throughout the Boston area? There's plenty that doesn't show up in
GDP that still has real value.

------
stefantalpalaru
Millions of people stayed at home an entire day, frightened, watching the news
and waiting for a 19 year old to be captured by a heavily militarized police
force? In the 21st century? During peace time? In a first world country?

~~~
thoughtsimple
I wasn't frightened. I considered it the best, most effective way of helping
Law enforcement to do their jobs. Which, BTW worked. One day of lockdown and
the crisis was over. Compare that to the DC snipers referenced in the article.

~~~
hga
Errr, did you/are you ignoring _that the lockdown was a complete and total
failure_? That only until it was over did a subject (see my other comments,
can't call Massachusetts residents citizens by the traditional meaning) exit
his house and notice something amiss on his property (evidently outside the
search parameter), resulting in him calling the police?

~~~
thoughtsimple
I disagree. They tracked him to Watertown and he couldn't leave because there
was no way to move without attracting suspicion. The shelter in place request
did exactly what was supposed to.

~~~
hga
Good, this is a debatable point.

Evidently he wasn't bleeding enough when he exited the carjacked Mercedes for
dogs to follow him, so they knew roughly where he was, but drew the cordon a
little too small (he was really into soccer, probably a good runner).

So with enough surveillance, if he'd moved after daylight he might have been
caught. Then again, the authorities denied themselves the use of thousands of
eyeballs of Watertown subjects, who would have likely recognized him from the
description (the point about blood above is that I'm assuming they assumed he
wasn't bleeding heavily, a much stronger tell).

And it was one of those subject's eyeballs after they came back into play that
resulted in the end of the hunt. Given what we know now, it was a mistake.
Given what I'm assuming they knew then, it was not obviously one.

~~~
hga
Ah, forgot one of the strong arguments I was thinking during the shutdown; as
expressed by Megan McArdle
([http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/19/should-
the-...](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/19/should-the-police-
have-shut-boston-down.html)):

" _it [sends a] message: if you set off bombs in a public space, we will shut
down the city and hunt you like vermin until we find you._ "

Of course, that only works if they actually do find you, which they didn't,
although they might be able to spin it that way.

------
tunesmith
This is ridiculous. It wasn't martial law security theater - it was
unprecedented community-level collaboration. Security forces had absolutely no
way to force/require the citizens to stay in, and probably wouldn't have been
anywhere near as effective in coordinating if the citizens hadn't helped out.

~~~
hga
All their efforts and "coordinating" _were a complete and total failure_.

Repeating again, a point made in the original, it was only after the shelter
in place request/implicit order (after Dornan in California it's take it as a
"if you want to stay unperforated, stay indoors..." sort of "request":
[http://12160.info/forum/topics/two-women-shot-in-manhunt-
for...](http://12160.info/forum/topics/two-women-shot-in-manhunt-for-ex-lapd-
cop?commentId=2649739%3AComment%3A1116109)) was lifted that a Massachusettes
subject exited his house, noticed something was amiss and called the police.

~~~
afterburner
And it was the lockdown that prevented the suspect from getting anywhere until
that point.

~~~
usea
What was gained by making it difficult for the suspect to move for a day?
Increased probability of him bleeding out?

Scenario 1) No lockdown. Suspect is discovered immediately by homeowner.

Scenario 2) Lockdown. Suspect hides for a day, and is discovered immediately
when the lockdown is over.

What is gained in scenario 2? Specifically, when weighed against the cost of
the lockdown.

~~~
csixty4
Look, I'm not one of those people who goes around pointing out logical
fallacies everywhere. Frankly, I think those people are obnoxious. But you've
described a pretty obvious false dichotomy. A lot of things could have
happened without the lockdown, including attacks on public transit, attacks on
crowded public areas, and a better chance of him fleeing town on foot or in a
car without being noticed. It's not as simple as your two scenarios.

------
neltnerb
During the event, the thing that kept coming to mind was... if the suspects
_actually_ have bombs set up, why on earth would you want to gather thousands
of police officers around the scene? How many people does it take to monitor a
boat to make sure no one leaves it?

But when it comes to a lockdown during a manhunt? That struck me as completely
reasonable given that they (a) knew roughly where the suspects were, (b) knew
they had access to explosives, and (c) didn't want to risk hurting civilians.

It's easy to play armchair police commissioner. See, I did it too right in the
first paragraph. But I'm not the one calling the shots, and they _did_ lift
the lockdown when they thought they'd failed to catch him. I really have a
hard time writing the response off as security theater when it seems like such
a totally reasonable response for an efficiency perspective. And the odds of
them planting future bombs was high to say the least, unlike some random
stickup (which also happen not infrequently in Boston).

This was a very different situation than an armed robbery.

------
Shivetya
Okay, I am pretty amazed about the Dunkin Donuts exception. That is one of
those items so bizarre you know it has to be real.

That being said, it was definitely an over reaction. That will take a few
weeks if not months to get sorted out as the analysis kicks in. I am more
curious who raises a stink as opposed to those who don't.

~~~
hga
I'm not so sure. Compared to the other examples he lists, London was suicide
bombers so they were, ahem, finished with their deeds, and the other locations
were well armed (even Maryland). By long standing public policy there are very
few guns, and almost no (legal) handguns owned by the people of Massachusetts
(if they were honest the government would stop using the symbol and likeness
of a Minuteman). In a region that's deliberately filled with sitting ducks as
it were, "sheltering in place" was perhaps the best thing to do.

Minus of course what I've heard is the error in drawing the door to door
search perimeter just a little short of where the suspect managed to run; not
security theater but an honest but very embarrassing failure.

~~~
mogrim
After the Madrid bombings they didn't shut the city down, and they weren't
suicide bombers. They didn't shut London down during the IRA bombing attacks
during the 80s either.

And that's two examples I've lived through. TBH I find it hard to think of a
single example of a terrorist bombing leading to a city shutdown, apart from
this one. It makes clear sense to shut down a local neighbourhood, a couple of
streets... but a whole city??? WTF???

~~~
twistedpair
City wasn't shut down. I really wish people that don't live where would cease
making such posits. I went to work. Ate lunch out. Bought groceries.

Why shutdown mass transit? So he could not easily flee. It is now known he was
hiding within the lockdown area and then moved out of there to the boat. If
the buses and trains had been running, there is no telling where he would have
gotten or what he might have done.

~~~
mogrim
> City wasn't shut down

Fair enough, I wasn't there - and I'm sure that had I been there I'd have been
sitting quietly in my residence. But right or wrong, the message I picked up
from Twitter / CNN / BBC / Spanish news was of a city shut down.

~~~
Evbn
Well maybe it's advisable not repeat Twitter rumors on HN as foundation for
your analysis. That's just contributing to misinformation that hinders the
police ability to safely handle mass casualty situations.

------
pvnick
That article was in very poor taste. I'm typically a libertarian, anti big
government, with a slight conspiracy theorist side to me, but I was thrilled
to see the well-coordinated and well-executed manhunt that captured the
suspect alive. It was a rare moment, I was in full "'MURICA" mode yesterday.
To complain about the process is just contrarian nonsense.

------
bridgeyman
Everyone was pretty scared after the marathon bombing. In the days after,
there were tons of bomb warnings as everyone reported anything even semi-
suspicious. My neighbors even reported an Amazon package for me because it
wasn't delivered by UPS!

Once there was a cop killed on our campus, followed by robberies and a car
chase with bombs, things were looking pretty grim. If they weren't caught, the
next few weeks would have felt very unsafe. After the drama with the lockdown
and the suspects being caught then the atmosphere went from really insecure to
people actually celebrating. If it was just a piece of theater, it was pretty
effective.

~~~
hga
His comparison to the Beltway sniper is apropos.

I happen to be someone who's connected to both, one of my stomping grounds was
Building 20 where I founded a student run computing center with the Logo Lab's
surplus PDP-11/45, serial number 413 (so 313th made), the Stata Center
replaced it.

And the woman killed in Virginia at the Home Depot ... well, that was "my"
Home Depot, as well as the location of a favorite Chinese restaurant, it was
even pretty easy to figure out where the sniper likely fired from.

Were we "scared" in the D.C. region? You better believe it, I certainly didn't
go outside without wearing my body armor and carrying my handgun, but we
didn't shut down the region. Then again, look at the above, Virginia is shall
issue and well armed, Maryland is seldom issue but still well armed,
Massachusetts has done just about everything it can to disarm its
population....

~~~
kvb
I don't think it's apropos at all. The snipers were killing individuals, not
maiming hundreds at a time. And I don't see how the level of gun ownership
matters (in either case). How was carrying your handgun going to help you if
the sniper shot at you? How would it have helped MA residents?

~~~
hga
At me, and hit me? None.

Only one shot? Based on what I've read, you can never locate the source,
especially since the sonic boom of a supersonic projectile is in a likely
different direction.

But it did put a limit on what they could achieve. If they'd attempted a mass
shooting and then to run away, if not immediately taken down I would have
found cover and shot back. And probably wouldn't have been alone.

They went to great and successful lengths to be covert (didn't help that the
guy leading the hunt was an idiot and they did the usual "it's got to be a
white man" profiling vs. the Sudden Jihad Syndrome it turned out to be ... the
police even stopped them once, but they obviously weren't enemies of the
state...). You can't rule out the area being well armed as one of the reasons.

As for MA, they were armed, and since they had to get around the law to get
that way almost certainly _knew_ if they broke into a house or apartment the
residents couldn't have fought back. My big fear during the manhunt was that
the police would bust into a dwelling and find the suspect plus the dead
bodies of the residents....

~~~
Evbn
Congratulations that you are capable of handling a threat profile (mass
shooting event) that is completely different from what actually happened in
DC. Lucky for the rest of us, the police in Boston are capable of handling a
wider array of threats.

And BTW, DC was partially locked down for weeks, by civilians: my outdoor rec
sports league cancelled itself out of fear of snipe threatsm

~~~
hga
I guess you didn't get my point, so I'll put it another way: to my knowledge,
except for the Arizona Congresswoman shooting, all the recent mass shooting
events going back to Stockton happened in so called "gun free zones".

We in the RKBA community don't think that's coincidental.

------
Anechoic
In my life I've had police point their weapons at me, I've had a cop blatantly
lie in testifying against me, and I've been threatened with arrest for having
the audacity to wave 'hi' to a cop as he was driving by and for sitting in a
car with white women (yeah, I'm black, how did you know?). I am certainly
sympathetic to the view that police and police powers need to be approached
with skepticism.

That said, the critics that have popped up over the past 14 hours seem to
twisted skepticism into a view that no law enforcement officer anywhere should
ever be trusted under any circumstances and cooperating with the police for
any reason is leading us down the slipper road to fascism.

I look at the past 24-hours and see the best of civilization. Law enforcement
and private citizens worked together which allowed an alleged murdered to be
captured alive with no civilian casualties and limited property damage. The
Boston area was back in business as of 8pm last night, and come Monday, folks
will be back to work. I can't see this as anything other than a success.

I'm curious - other than RMS, is there anyone within the affected area that
felt the response and the search was inappropriate?

~~~
Evbn
This a viewpoint that needs more echo's.

Every libertarian gun fan is just jealous that the cops got to use the big
toys this week. In their fantasies, the bomber would have been in their boat,
and they could have shot him themselves, and they would be the hero. And we
would never get a proper investigation into how this all started.

------
kevincennis
I know I already commented, but one other thing bothers me about this article
and I feel compelled to address it:

"Yes, that's right – it wasn't until the stupid lock-down was ended that a
citizen found the second murderer".

Obviously this is pure speculation, but it certainly doesn't seem unreasonable
to think that if it weren't for the "stupid lock-down", the suspect probably
wouldn't have been forced to hide in a boat in the first place.

------
rtpg
Everything that mentions the number of deaths seems to forget the fact that
this guy didn't 'just' kill 4 people, he also injured over 150 people (a lot
of missing legs on those injuries too...)

There's a huge difference with the other examples. Namely in how
indiscriminate it all is.

~~~
goostavos
Agreed. Seems to be purposefully left out to support his position.

The snipers death toll was, what, 7% of the total number of injuries at
Boston? Once you factor in _why_ bombs are terrible the comparison falls apart
a bit in my opinion.

------
jeffcouturier
This skips one critical fact that invalidates the entire premise of the post.

The lockdown had little to do with public safety and everything to do with a
manhunt. The city was shut down to prevent the suspect from getting out, not
to protect people.

~~~
blaines
Did they say that when asking people to stay home or did they tell people they
would be safer at home?

------
bridgeyman
This was all just a tactic to raise the fertility rates in Boston. 9 months
from now we will experience The Great Boston Baby Boom.

------
learc83
Yes, locking down an entire city, is an effective method to conduct a manhunt.

But just look at these pictures, <http://imgur.com/a/Asgdb#0>

Two untrained losers were able make a major American city look like a warzone.

I hope there aren't other potential bombers out there thinking "that's all it
takes..."

~~~
sek
Yeah that's what I thought too, a lot of spreekillings are about attention.

I also think they were waiting to show their big toys out on the street.
Armored vehicles for a 19 year old without military training and equipment?

~~~
Evbn
Hi, Mr Troll. This kid shot a college security guard to death, so the armor
came out so he wouldn't kill 20 more.

I didn't see you volunteering to chase him down in your tshirt and shorts.
Considering that you do your police work from tour computer , I would predict
that he could outrun you anyway.

~~~
danielweber
I like your point, and this is just my own personal nit to pick, but Collier
was 100% a police officer, fully deputized like any other cop.

------
sehugg
I don't think the decision was necessarily wrong, but it shouldn't be taken
lightly either. We may be able to learn from it.

A man in Watertown, David Henneberry, found the suspect in his boat only
_after_ the curfew was lifted. The suspect himself was identified using
footage voluntarily donated from citizen's cameras!

This is what we should be celebrating -- the collaboration between citizenry
and police. This is not the time for STFU. We may do even better next time.

------
dfc
I submitted this link but I am not sure what the deal is with the author
mentioning military golf courses. The first round of golf that I ever played
was with my father at MCBH Kaneohe. For service members stationed on oahu the
greens fees at the civilian golf courses can be exorbitant. There is no way my
father could have afforded to take me out golfing three or four times at a
civilian course during my visit. Are people surprised to hear that the
military has their own golf courses? They also have their own grocery stores,
gyms and movie theaters.

~~~
blaines
Yeah the author was definitely off topic there. Maybe they are unaware of how
hard it can be to move around the world at a moments notice. I believe golf
courses and the other facilities are hugely beneficial to our service members
and are well deserved.

------
MrFoof
_> If we call it just three million people_

Which would be ludicrously inflated. Belmont, Waltham, Newton, Cambridge,
Watertown and the Allston/Brighton neighborhoods of Boston -- which was the
original cities/neighborhoods suggested to stay at home -- is 375,000 people.
When you add the rest of Boston in (8AM Friday), you're at about 900,000 -
950,000 people. 5 million would be nearly the entire state population.

Moreover, I still went grocery shopping on Friday -- I live in one of the most
northeastern parts of the city (Charlestown), which was about 5 miles away
from the active dragnet. There were people about. Some businesses were open,
as was the case in East Boston and many other neighborhoods.

The real work closures were on account of orders by property management
companies. Private security firms, from what I heard from several folks, are
who refused entry into their buildings in the Financial District to any one,
probably on account of limiting their potential liability. Even then, most
folks I knew had received reverse-calls from their employer even before MBTA
service was suspended (which wasn't until 5:30AM).

 _> "Four victims brutally killed" goes by other names in other cities. In
Detroit, for example, they call it "Tuesday"._

I'm not sure about fatalities, but Boston called it Tuesday as well. There
were 6 shooting across Boston on the evening of Tuesday the 16th (which is a
very abnormal amount for the city). Most are thought to be gang-related. No
one thought anything of it. Even when I listened to the police scanner
starting around 10:45PM on Thursday evening, I simply assumed that it was a
rash of gang-related or usual criminal activity (especially being a
convenience store robbery).

However, gangs don't usually tote around the equivalent of giant fragmentation
grenades. There are plenty of guns in Boston, but folks using explosives
aren't like gun owners (legal possession or not) -- they're psychopaths. By
the time Tamerlan was recovered, law enforcement was aware the guy was wearing
an explosive vest and they had already used a fair number of IEDs that
evening. I doubt it was a call that commissioner Davis and governor Patrick
wanted to make, but there was probably a very legitimate concern that more
mass casualty events were a possibility. It was clearly a very defensive
action -- after all, after 7 hours they still had a suspect who had managed to
evade hundreds of police.

Another factor for the decision may have been that both attacks were on
curiously popular dates for attacks: The bombings were on Patriots Day (on
which Columbine, and Virginia Tech shootings also occurred), and the 19th is
also the anniversary of the Oklahoma City Bombings and the Waco, Texas
Standoff. Terrorists loves them some symbolism.

~~~
Glyptodon
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lrEvkEdcABUZ)

The governor makes it sound like "all of Boston, all of Boston" ...

------
john_w_t_b
What message does this shutdown send to other potential rampage killers and
sociopaths? You can shutdown society and have millions of people read your
life story by committing one of these crimes. We should be treating these
murderers more like internet trolls. Try to ignore their message and get them
out of circulation as soon as possible.

~~~
twistedpair
Of course you don't want to cower in fear and act terrorized. Yet, sending the
message that any steps necessary to catch terrorists will be taken within
reason is a powerful deterrent. You can't just fade into the shadows. The
entire city will contribute to finding and neutralizing the threat.

~~~
john_w_t_b
For any crime, there's a risk-reward balance. On the risk side, many rampage
killers are suicidal and don't seem to fear the consequences of law
enforcement. We need to focus on taking away the reward for these crimes i.e.
public attention.

~~~
Evbn
You assume without evidence that this act was a cry for attention, and not the
more obvious attempt to hurt people.

~~~
twistedpair
Precisely. Hence it is rational for the public to carry out a manhunt to
remove the threat.

------
pmorici
There are some interesting bits here with respect to debating if telling
everyone to close shop and stay home was an effective thing to do but I think
the breathless martial law wasted government spending line of argument isn't
really convincing in this particular instance

------
afterburner
It occurs to me re: Dunkin Donuts, if you're going to keep a huge number of
police in an area for an exhausting open-ended search, you'll want caffeine
and sugar readily available in large quantities at many locations...

~~~
csixty4
And warm coffee especially. It was a wee bit chilly yesterday evening.

------
aptwebapps
The other cost is that is a sort of reward for the terrorists to overreact
like this.

~~~
thoughtsimple
Or perhaps future terrorists will decide that Boston is too small and cohesive
a community to attack. Next time they go to a city where they have more chance
of sneaking off in a crowd. I'm not one to think that bombers of civilians are
really that brave.

~~~
aptwebapps
"Or perhaps future terrorists will decide that Boston is too small and
cohesive a community to attack."

Because of the shutdown? That was what I was talking about. If so, I'm not
sure that I see it. At any rate, I was just making the standard "don't let the
terrorists win" argument.

------
bane
If there was ever a way to drag all the self-deluded over-protected entitled
iron-balled Rambo types who claim Batman level crime, anti-terror and anti-IED
fighting expertise out into the light to provide some of the most ignorant and
frankly stupid commentary I've probably ever seen, typed safe from their
keyboards, this event was it.

------
conanbatt
Although one point or another in the post is disagreeable, there is something
perverse is such a "shutdown" reaction. The reality is that all situations
create precedent, which mean that a party with interest in shutting a city
down only needs a single hand made bomb to create such distraction.

~~~
Evbn
And when such a party is apprehended, there will be no more parties to start
trouble.

~~~
conanbatt
Those are never "apprehended" because they are not silly.

In argentina, the "news" that Maradona was dead flew around several times,
creating distraction in key days of political trials.

A city-wide shutdown is an opportunity for a vast number of people, both legal
and criminal in activity. And now , you can consider a home-made bomb that
doesnt even kill someone knowing the reaction.

A little paranoid maybe :)

------
InclinedPlane
I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand I do think there are many
concerning aspects to shutting down a city for law enforcement purposes, even
if much of that happens more or less voluntarily. On the other hand this was a
rather unusual situation where the suspects were at large, well armed, known
to be in a specific area, and their names and faces were known. I can't think
of many other equally comparable situations.

What I do know for certain though is that there's far too much emotion in this
discussion right now. This is an important topic that deserves thoughtful,
relaxed discussion, but I don't think that's happening or even possible at the
moment.

------
billwilliams
How many people who are calling the events from boston "martial law" and
"security theater" are from Boston or more specifically Watertown?

Until an armed man with explosives is hiding in your back yard, your opinion
is not particularly useful.

------
peterjancelis
Totally agreed.

The blackhawk helicopters flying over Boston were a clear breach of Posse
Comitatus and the warrantless searches (or self-warranted, any type not
warranted by a judge) was a clear breach of the 4th amendment.

~~~
twistedpair
@peterjancelis are you even remotely familiar with what you're talking about?
It was all legal. Read up.

~~~
twistedpair
peterjancelis, you're incorrect on all counts:

Posse Comitatus Act:

"The Bill/Act as modified in 1981 refers to the Armed Forces of the United
States. It does not apply to the National Guard under state authority from
acting in a law enforcement capacity within its home state or in an adjacent
state if invited by that state's governor. "

* The National Guard of Massachusetts has blackhawks. They are used in times of emergency. This was one such case.

* Governor was there. Invited them. Same state. Law enforcement capacity.

4th Amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized."

Warrants are required for evidence to be used in a court of law. This was not
an evidenciary expedition.

* People were not seized from their homes

* People's effects were not seized from their homes

* Searches were in cooperation with home owners (remember, everyone staid home Friday)

* There was probable cause as the suspect was in the area as proven when they found him a few hundred feet from the search area

* There was a clear risk to public safety (7 bombs set off, hundreds of rounds fired, a cop dead, another near death, 15 police hopitalized)

No, I'm not familiar with case law at all. I just took American History in
high school and know how to search Wikipedia.

------
considerthis
Cost analysis here: [http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2013/04/what-
will-...](http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2013/04/what-will-boston-
lockdown-cost-city/5350)

~~~
twistedpair
What's the cost analysis of successful terrorist attacks? Remember, we're
talking cost/benefit here. One verses the other.

9/11 was in the trillions (i.e. property loss, insurance pay outs, market
collapses, wars.) The markets this week were dropping in response to Boston,
that's on the order of billions. Count all the cancelled events during the
week (not talking about Friday's public safety) and people not going out and
conducting commerce and you're in the millions.

Compare that to the cost of say 20 lives? He had home made bombs on his person
the last the police had seen him. His brother had a suicide vest. What if the
MBTA was running and he blew up a bus full of souls? Worth $100M? I bet the
negative market reaction would have been far greater than that.

Still, a crucial flaw in these calculations is that most of the "lost"
business will be made up. People will go out and do more than their share of
commerce today. There are sandwiches on Friday that won't be sold and floors
that were not cleaned, but big ticket items were only demurred and will be
serviced, produced, or purchased in due time.

------
thedaveoflife
>First, the unprecendented shutdown of a major American city may have
increased safety some small bit, but it was not without a cost: keeping
somewhere between 2 and 5 million people from work, shopping, and school
destroyed a nearly unimaginable amount of value. If we call it just three
million people, and we peg the cost at a mere $15 per person per hour, the
destroyed value runs to a significant fraction of a billion dollars.

The assumption being that the people who didn't spend that $15 will not just
go out and spend it today?

~~~
raldi
_> The assumption being that the people who didn't spend that $15 will not
just go out and spend it today?_

By that logic, every even-numbered day should be a national day of leisure.

~~~
oconnore
For most retail stores, that would actually be very efficient.

~~~
raldi
That's a not-completely-unreasonable caricature of life in Italy, and believe
me, it's anything but efficient.

------
revelation
Apparently the holy scripture, aka the constitution, isn't worth the paper it
was written on. Soldiers in cities? That shit would not fly here. You get a
congressional inquiry for letting AWACS control the air.

~~~
thoughtsimple
Police. Not soldiers. Unless you mean the soldiers that ran the marathon with
full packs and then helped the first responders after the blasts.

~~~
revelation
[http://25.media.tumblr.com/b2af26395aeac454b95f064a48155d0e/...](http://25.media.tumblr.com/b2af26395aeac454b95f064a48155d0e/tumblr_mli8zmcJtq1r3rsfmo1_1280.jpg)

These look like soldiers. I think theres another one with Humvees.

~~~
thoughtsimple
Police in SWAT gear.

------
youngerdryas
Typical tone deaf nerd rage. If Bostonians didn't agree with the lockdown we
would have likely ignored it, we are not particularly obedient.

~~~
brown9-2
Your second sentence is a good point - it was a request from the government,
not a demand.

~~~
InclinedPlane
I think that may be a distinction without a difference.

All public transit was shut down. In Watertown specifically businesses were
not allowed to open and anyone in a car was subject to being swarmed by
heavily armed police and taken into questioning.

Edit: clarified the parts that were specifically about Watertown vs. Boston as
a whole.

~~~
herewego
You're wrong. I live in Boston. The MBTA was shut down, but businesses were
allowed to open (my employer was), and people weren't getting "swarmed" by any
means.

~~~
InclinedPlane
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZqKLrrMBPE#t=96s>

Police chief saying: "We're asking everyone to shelter in place, no vehicle
traffic is going to be allowed to travel in or out of Watertown, until further
notice, no businesses are going to be allowed to be opened."

There was coverage of a few incidents of bystanders in cars or taxis being
swarmed by cops but I haven't been able to google up any specific reporting on
those incidents at the moment. Without trawling through all the live coverage
it might be hard to track down.

~~~
herewego
That's a 20 block area in Watertown. Not even close to all of Boston and it's
surrounding towns. I was there, I'm a first hand account.

