
The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale - sschwartz
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/business/the-e-cigarette-industry-waiting-to-exhale.html
======
pvnick
E-Cigarettes are going to save millions of lives in the coming years. They're
harmless, and, if you get a brand that feels like the real thing, easy to
transition to. I hope the tobacco industry takes a huge financial hit from the
sale of these things because they literally prevent people from dying.

That being said, when I switched to e-cigarettes, it was very easy to switch
back to regular cigarettes. That "narrow bridge of familiarity" was easy to
cross back over, especially when I ran out of vapor cartridges. Ultimately for
me to quit it took stopping cigarettes cold-turkey. Nicotine gum and a
transition to regular gum helped a lot. It's been one of the hardest but most
rewarding things I've ever done in my life.

~~~
hristov
1\. E-cigarettes are not harmless and I wish people would stop perpetuating
that lie. It is not clear exactly how harmful they are, but they are not
harmless.

2\. Ecig marketers are trying to push this story line of e-cigs vs the tobacco
industry. It is mostly bs as the major ecig company blu is owned by a major
tobacco company and every other major tobacco company has an ecig line now.
The ecig industry is the tobacco industry.

I am very happy for you that you were able to quit. And it seems to me that is
the only way.

~~~
Lambdanaut
I agree that they're not harmless. They're addictive, and being forced into
reliance on a substance is never good.

Though, this is the only detriment we know of.

~~~
Zigurd
> They're addictive, and being forced into reliance on a substance is never
> good.

How bad is it? Unless I'm exercising hard, I'll get caffeine withdrawal
symptoms if I stop drinking coffee. I have read of both beneficial and
detrimental effects of caffeine. What's the threshold for considering the
accompanying physical addiction a problem?

~~~
DanBC
> What's the threshold for considering the accompanying physical addiction a
> problem?

If something is addictive but not physically harmful the threshold is when it
starts to affect your day to day life.

Gambling is fun. Some people have a problem with gambling. When you think that
gambling is affecting your day to day life it's stopped being fun and turned
into a problem.

------
rickdale
I used to run a custom e-cigarette company. We sold it this summer.

My take away was that the federal government eventually will get involved and
start regulating the shipping of these items. Unfortunately the stuff people
are getting now is mostly made in China and you can't be too certain of what
the heck you are getting when you take a big inhale and just taste the apple
flavoring or whatever. Who knows what chemicals are used to make them.

Most of the testimonials I received was from people that were able to quit
smoking because of my product, but I definitely got some complaints as well.
The biggest benefit of the e-cig is that is is little to no smell. Definitely
hit them on airplanes before with no problems. It is an interesting market
though where it seems like new types of e-cigs are coming out all the time.

Another thing about e-cigs is that people are making them into e-joints. This
is very popular especially in medical marijuana states. Before they banned
synthetic marijuana, we were developing a synthetic marijuana e-cig. Would
have been fun to have around, but ultimately I am glad not to be filling in
mass them any more!

~~~
300bps
_Definitely hit them on airplanes before with no problems._

If you were flying on an airline based in the United States, you violated
their rules.

[http://www.businessinsider.com/you-cant-smoke-e-
cigarettes-i...](http://www.businessinsider.com/you-cant-smoke-e-cigarettes-
in-planes-2013-2)

Beyond that, what gives you the right to put other people's health at risk?
You have either judged them safe or decided you don't care about the risks.
You can't make that decision for other people and you're not in a position to
know what genetic or other disorders that someone might have that make them
more susceptible to any kind of tobacco (ex:
[http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/alpha-1-antitrypsin-
deficie...](http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/alpha-1-antitrypsin-deficiency)).
How is this any different from me walking onto a plane with a clump of
asbestos fibers and waving it over your head on the plane?

~~~
mst
> more susceptible to any kind of tobacco

That is, of course, assuming that the e-cig uses tobacco, for which I see
absolutely no evidence.

Please at least stick to the ingredients actually present when attempting an
attack.

Additionallym please bear in mind that saying "oh but we've no guarantee it
was actually made with those ingredients" is pretty equivalent to "oh but
we've no guarantee somebody's lipstick wasn't actually made with rat poision",
so your 'strawman argument' claim down thread doesn't make any sense to me.

> I understand why my mother started smoking when she was 16 and then smoked a
> pack a day for the next 43 years until she died from cancer.

I fear that this statement elsethread - combined with your sneering tone anc
crusader's mindset - indicates that you're not actually interested in
discussing the matter clearly but rather in rationalising your hatred of the
thing you blame for your mother's death. That would be a shame; under the
thick layer of condescension I think you actually have some valid arguments,
although it's a little difficult to tell for sure.

~~~
300bps
_That is, of course, assuming that the e-cig uses tobacco, for which I see
absolutely no evidence._

Here's some evidence for you to see:

[http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm173146.ht...](http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm173146.htm)

 _Diethylene glycol was detected in one cartridge at approximately 1%.
Diethylene glycol, an ingredient used in antifreeze, is toxic to humans._

 _Certain tobacco-specific nitrosamines which are human carcinogens were
detected in half of the samples tested._

 _Tobacco-specific impurities suspected of being harmful to humans—anabasine,
myosmine, and β-nicotyrine—were detected in a majority of the samples tested._

You appear to just be taking all the claims that these e-cigarette companies
are reporting at face value. Just like people used to take what the tobacco
companies said at face value. I won't fall for it.

Are e-cigarettes safe than regular cigarettes? Maybe? Probably? Are they safe
though? I have no idea and neither do you or anyone else.

~~~
intslack
That DEG bit has nothing to do with them using tobacco, and instead has
everything to do with a company in China not using USP Propylene Glycol (as
non-USP PG might contain some DEG.)

And just to elaborate on this, non-USP PG is used everywhere. If you cook and
use flavorings, take a look in your cupboard and check out the ingredients. PG
will no doubt be used as a carrier in some of them. Aside from flavorings it's
also used in the manufacture of many foods: my grandfather, who works at a
cheese house, told me they use it in their process and it no doubt gets into
the production.

The nitrosamines are from the nicotine extraction, which again indicates that
they were probably not using USP nicotine. The company that produced that
particular e-cigarette is now out of business.

The dose makes the poision; analyze everything around you and you may find a
very small percentage of unwanted and dangerous chemicals.

Conflating the e-cigarette industry with the tobacco industry is entirely
incorrect. The e-cig industry was not started by a tobacco company, and big
tobacco has only recently taken interest by buying up companies and starting
their own brands.

Also note, that the amount of DEG and nitrosamines were well within acceptable
standards enforced by the FDA. The whole media circus around it was very
shady.

~~~
praxeologist
>The dose makes the poision; analyze everything around you and you may find a
very small percentage of unwanted and dangerous chemicals.

Very good point. Toxicologists hate the term "poison" because it is
misleading. Water is poisonous when we take too much.

There was some terrible anti-ecig research recently that reported all of this
dangerous stuff in them (still vastly less dangerous if you look at it merely
because there is no burning lignins).

Anyhow, the flaw in this study was burning e-liquid at 900 degrees C, the
temperature of the cone of a burning cigarette, versus the 200-250 C of an
ecig. It is sort of like saying a car isn't safe to drive on a highway because
we tested it at 200 MPH.

All of these people raising concern in this thread, writing NYT articles, etc.
are not informed about the body of research and able to put it in perspective.

BTW, with how much is consumed on average taken into account, FDA-approved
gums/patches contain more tobacco-specific nitrosamines than ecigs (and this
is so minor to not be a concern).

------
bcx
It is really interesting to look at this article through the lens of the PR
agency/strategy that helped place it for NJOY.

1) Quotes from CEO

2) Little anecdote from Chief Marketing Officer

3) Big vision "Vaping" becomes common place.

4) Key differentiators: "building e-cigarettes that look, feel and perform
like the real thing" (this is sprinkled throughout)

5) Celebrity endorsement, Big names: Peter Thiel, Brunno Mars

The rest (post first page) is a nice over view of the e-cigarette industry,
and some challenges facing NJOY. I wonder how long they were working on a NYT
article, of if this was something pretty easy for them to get, given interest
around e-cigarettes.

~~~
shadowOfShadow
There's been a fair number of fluff PR and guerilla marketing - even directly
at HN readers - around vaping. It's likely organized and funded, etc. blah
blah. How far did you have to read through this article to get any voice of
someone NOT paid by the company or by the company of the author?

The whole e-cig thing is trying to re-build the signalling that real
cigarettes have had instead of the self-medicating, addicted idea people have
at this point. Rebellion, authenticity, ritual, nostalgia, freedom etc. vs.
Addict

It must be turned into something you do in front of people to be safely
contrarian. Why not just have little capsules that you can get a high dose
rush from that essentially is minimally enveloped nicotine? Just enough toying
to get it straight to the blood stream?

~~~
logn
> Why not just have little capsules that you can get a high dose rush from
> that essentially is minimally enveloped nicotine?

They have these too. Look for the '4mg nicotine mini lozenge' made by
Nicorette and generic by many companies. Unfortunately they're expensive and
you need to use 2 or 3 (8-12mg) to really get effect from it. Also, they are
slightly irritating to the mouth at times (but much less so than nicotine gum
or any tobacco).

> The whole e-cig thing is trying to re-build the signalling [...]

That's an interesting point. I think you're right on that for the companies
like Njoy and Blu, which are imitating the feel of real cigarettes. They're
tapping into the smokers' rebellious psyche but interestingly, it's because
those smokers are generally too self-conscious to use an e-cig with a giant
battery and refillable tank that looks odd. Essentially, smokers feel (perhaps
rightly) that smoking is accepted on some level, but people definitely do find
it strange seeing someone inhale from a giant piece of metal that many might
assume is some kind of hard drug.

However, as a result of their design concerns (to look like a real
cigarette... or 'analog cig' as many say) they've sacrificed on tech specs and
also on price. It's much more cost effective and also an overall better
experience to buy an e-cig with a large battery and refillable tanks to hold
the liquid. But Blu and others do not offer this. Compare their $7.99 e-cig
that is equivalent to 20 cigarettes to the $7.99 10ml bottle of e-liquid for
refillable e-cigs which will last at least a week (probably equivalent to 200
cigarettes), and batteries that last upwards of 1-2 days between charges. Some
Blue e-cigs aren't re-chargeable and the ones that are run of out charge after
a few hours of use. Also, Blu does not deliver the amount of nicotine to the
user that a refillable tank + large battery can (which is bad b/c then smokers
don't feel satisfied).

So, if smokers can find the self-confidence to vape on the most effective
device (regardless of its appearance) then they'll save lots of money, get a
better nicotine experience, and thus be much less likely to return to smoking.

------
300bps
I am starting to see people puffing on these stupid e-cigarettes in
restaurants that ban cigarette smoking. When you say something to them they
invariably try to "educate" you on what an e-cigarette is and how it's
different. The problem is that e-cigarettes have not been shown to be safe.
From the article:

 _Most public health officials seem to agree that the levels of toxins in
e-cigarettes are far lower than those in traditional cigarettes. But they also
say that far too little is known, not just about potentially harmful aspects
of particular brands of e-cigarettes, but also about whether there is harm
from “secondhand vapor.” Dr. Glantz of U.C.S.F. says that in the absence of
data, indoor smoking bans should also cover e-cigarettes._

The FDA is collecting reports of adverse effects and there are plenty:

[http://www.fda.gov/downloads/aboutfda/centersoffices/officeo...](http://www.fda.gov/downloads/aboutfda/centersoffices/officeofmedicalproductsandtobacco/aboutthecenterfortobaccoproducts/ucm361437.pdf)

I understand why my mother started smoking when she was 16 and then smoked a
pack a day for the next 43 years until she died from cancer. Why in the world
are people starting to smoke today with everything we know about it?

~~~
anextio
> I am starting to see people puffing on these stupid e-cigarettes in
> restaurants that ban cigarette smoking.

Most reasonable people in the vaping community discourage that kind of
behavior. At the end of the day, there will always be assholes.

> The FDA is collecting reports of adverse effects and there are plenty

There are four ingredients in e-cigarette juice: propylene glycol, vegetable
glycerin, nicotine, and flavoring.

Adverse effects generally come from an allergic reaction to PG, which is
uncommon but well known. Those who are allergic are advised to use 100% VG
mixtures.

Aside from that, PG is well known to be safe for human consumption as
regulated by the FDA. It is an ingredient in inhalers for asthma and is used
in smoke machines. It can cause a humidicant effect on the throat, which
leaves it dry, but drinking liquids easily avoids this problem.

No one is arguing that e-cigarette companies should not be regulated to make
sure that the juice they produce is of a high quality, but arguments to
regulate them heavily (or like regular cigarettes) is based mostly on FUD.

> Why in the world are people starting to smoke today with everything we know
> about it?

Because humans aren't rational machines and there are many things that cause
people to take up habits that aren't healthy. That's not something that's ever
going to go away.

While long term data on e-cigarettes is not yet available, most experts agree
that even in the worst-case scenario, they are nowhere near as bad for you as
regular cigarettes. The FUD that exists in the debate can mostly be traced
back to groups that have a temperance movement-esque attitude toward nicotine
habits.

Nicotine is no more addictive or harmful to a person in a normal dose than
caffeine, and its effects are similar also.

E-cigarettes are helping millions of people to get themselves off the dangers
of regular cigarettes. That in itself is a public health miracle. The rates of
cessation for cigarettes through traditional methods are frighteningly low,
yet with the introduction of e-cigarettes, many people (including myself) will
never touch a regular cigarette again after the first day.

I have a more advanced device than the ones you pick up at a gas station. It
has variable wattage, variable voltage, an ohm-meter, a puff counter, and I
can charge my iPhone from it via USB. As well as getting me off tobacco, it's
also given me something else to geek out over, and I really enjoy it and the
community around it.

Access to these devices must be made available widely and without encumbrance
to as many people as possible. Regulations that come in should be about
quality of product, not discouragement of purchase.

~~~
300bps
_Because humans aren 't rational machines and there are many things that cause
people to take up habits that aren't healthy_

I get this, but usually there is some substantial benefit to the habit.

To start smoking cigarettes today, you are well aware of the fact that it
will:

1\. Make you less healthy while you are alive

2\. Will prematurely end your life

3\. Will make you reviled by a large portion of the population

4\. Will cost you a ridiculous amount of money

5\. Will cost you a tremendous amount of time while you seek out cigarettes
and smoke them

... there are many more negatives.

What possible positives are there that outweigh these negatives?

 _Nicotine is no more addictive or harmful to a person in a normal dose than
caffeine, and its effects are similar also._

This is just so incredibly ridiculous. I've never smoked a cigarette but I
have been addicted to caffeine multiple times in my life. I've gone "cold
turkey" several times and the only effect was a slight headache that was off
and on for a week. I think it's actually pretty easy to quit caffeine but from
what I hear, it's nearly impossible to quit smoking cigarettes.

And if the effects of caffeine are similar to the effects of nicotine why not
just use caffeine? It seems to have few of the negatives and all the positives
(including the social impact of smoking which can be transferred to the social
impact of getting coffee).

I just don't get smoking at all. I don't see any benefits to it in a vein
similar to I don't see a benefit of smacking myself in the head with a hammer.
It's hard to explain away such things with, "Yeah, people aren't rational"
because you don't see many people smacking themselves in the head with a
hammer.

~~~
anextio
I started smoking in university, and where I'm from a very high percentage of
university students smoke (usually roll-your-own cigarettes, though).

I can remember the first time I had a puff of a cigarette, and I was quite
drunk at the time. The thing about smoking while drinking is that, at least at
the start, a cigarette seems to make you twice as drunk as you were before,
while also making you feel really good.

Of course before this I had smoked weed a bunch of times, and here that is
usually mixed with tobacco in a joint, so I was used to it at least in that
aspect.

But most people here who smoke weed and not cigarettes are quite able to
handle the occasional tobacco in a joint without making a cigarette habit out
of it.

Anyway, basically it just started out as something that I would do while out
drinking. I would get drunk with my roommates, and occasionally have a puff or
two from a cigarette in that state. Eventually I would have a whole roll-up to
myself. Eventually I started buying my own tobacco to use with my own weed,
and at times I would occasionally have a pure tobacco roll-up with no weed,
just for the nice feeling.

For a lot of people, it generally starts out with the connection to drinking.
Drinking and smoking are very conducive to each other, and it's how many many
people get started.

I don't think I need to go into the details of how alcohol affects your
judgement.

How my addiction came about was a slower process. At one point for whatever
reason I decided to have a cigarette in the morning just as I was walking to
my college, and by god did it feel great. At this point I was still convinced
in the back of my mind that I had it under control, and could quit whenever I
wanted.

The tradition of a morning cigarette turned into a necessity. Within about 6
months, I had an awful nervous feeling in my arms and stomach until I had the
first cigarette of the day, and once it gets to that point, you're screwed.

I was young and foolish, I was drinking, I was doing it with my friends, I was
getting social satisfaction from it. I enjoyed the ritual of making the trek
to the smoking area with a friend or two for a nice chat while everyone else
was inside.

I was smoking up until early August this year. I'm not a drinker at all
anymore, and it's always been completely clear to me the health risks of
smoking cigarettes, but the excuses still pile up: stress at work, stress at
home, no time, trying to find as much enjoyment from my free time as I can,
etc.

I switched to an e-cigarette (I hate that term, by the way, much prefer
vaporizer) then in August, and the difference has been night and day. I never
had another cigarette after that day, and to be honest, I despise them now.
I've never had a craving for one and the smell of the smoke disgusts me now
like it never did before when I was a smoker.

My cravings have gone down as well. I no longer feel that nervous feeling when
I wake up in the morning. My nicotine requirements have gone way down. I'll be
moving to a lower nicotine % juice when my current bottle runs out. My blood
pressure is great, I can run again, my circulation is better and I don't cough
up gunk.

I still have no full intention of quitting. Nicotine for me, like caffeine for
some, is an aid to my work pattern. Walking down to the curb for a cigarette
or leaning back for a few puffs from my vaporizer are the things that get my
mind past a difficult bug or coding problem.

------
tluyben2
A lot of smokers I know switched to these things. They 'smoke' (is that the
proper word with such an e-cig?) far more than they did before. Some of them
use them every second they have nothing todo with one of their hands, which
basically means they're puffing most of their waking day. I hope for them
these things don't turn out to be as bad as/worse than normal cigs...

~~~
anextio
As someone who switched to an e-cigarette, I might be able to answer this for
you.

The first thing is that the level and effect of nicotine that is absorbed
though vapor is a lot less than a regular cigarette. The reason for this is
twofold: firstly, the lungs/mouth/throat seem to simply not pick up as much as
in a cigarette, and secondly, cigarette smoke also contains MAOIs, which
increase the sensitivity of the brain to nicotine's effects.

In addition, users can choose the level of nicotine that they use. Most e-cig
users who are regular smokers tend to start at around 18mg/ml. When I first
started, I was using this liquid in a 1.6ml tank. One tank worked out to about
1 pack of cigarettes worth of nicotine, and I got through about a tank a day:
the same amount that I used to smoke in cigarettes, except spread out through
a longer period of time.

Most vapers will puff way differently to cigarette users. We take one or two
puffs at a time and then wait, while a cigarette user will smoke the whole
thing quickly in one go.

Nicotine has been shown[1] to increase creativity in the brain, and I know
from my own experience that I find it to be great while working. Most of my
'House' moments when tackling difficult coding problems have occurred on the
curb with a cigarette in my mouth, and now I lean back at my desk and have a
few puffs of fine-tasting menthol e-liquid.

[1] [http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-08/uoc--
bcw08150...](http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-08/uoc--
bcw081507.php)

~~~
ubercore
I don't disagree with your sentiment at all, but have you thought about the
"curb" being the primary factor behind the increased creativity? Is leaning
back and puffing from a vape as effective for you?

~~~
anextio
Of course I have, and yeah, it is as effective. Sometimes I will still get up
and walk around while doing it.

I'm not going to claim any scientific miracles from it (that would be dumb),
but for me the combination of taking a break from the screen and having some
nicotine is what gets my brain going.

------
cliveowen
I can't fathom who thought these things were a good idea. I see people
"smoking" these things everywhere: on the bus, on the train, at the effing
university during classes!

I don't care if it's just steam, I don't want it in my face. I can't believe
people don't get this.

~~~
KC8ZKF
People tap-tap-tapping at their fucking phones gets the same reaction from me.
Of course it's irrational for me to feel this way, so I've learned to ignore
it.

~~~
shiftpgdn
I am extraordinarily allergic to the glycol in e-cigs. Just a few seconds of
exposure is enough to send me into anaphylaxis. I am pretty sure somebody
tapping away on their phone wont kill you.

~~~
nucleardog
If you're allergic to propylene glycol then you're allergic to pretty much
everything.

That same propylene glycol is used in cakes/cupcakes, frostings, many ice
creams, beers (as a foaming agent), some coffees, candy, many salad dressings,
flavoured coffees, dried fruits, some brands of milk, many beauty products
(makeup, shampoo, soaps)...

There are a lot more people with peanut allergies and we don't ban people from
eating products containing peanuts anywhere in public. Why is this case
different?

~~~
shiftpgdn
Because you're not vaporizing peanuts and spraying it into the air where
somebody with a peanut allergy has absolutely no choice but to inhale it?

~~~
daughart
People wear perfume. Some people are allergic to perfume. So what. At some
point it's the person with the allergy's responsibility to manage their immune
response through medical treatment.

------
argumentum
_“The very thing that could make them effective is also their greatest
danger,” said Dr. Tim McAfee, director of Office on Smoking and Health at the
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention._

It's exactly this kind of thinking that started and perpetuates the pernicious
war on drugs. It's the root of the (proven false) "gateway drug" phenomenon.

The "thing" by the way is the fact that _they don 't do any harm_. How absurd
and ridiculous ..

------
ams6110
Smokers getting annoyed looks at a Stones concert??? My how times have
changed. The last time I saw the Stones in concert the entire venue was so
filled with cigarette (and I'm sure other) smoke that when the house lights
came up at the end of the show the place looked like a Cheech and Chong scene.

------
qwerta
I do not understand why some people try to regulate this. My guess is that
income from smoking-tax is shrinking.

I never smoked cigarette in my life, but I tried e-cigs as a replacement for
coffee. It works, no hassle with tea or coffee preparation, also it is
probably healthier. But being labeled as a smoker puts me off.

~~~
deskglass
"I tried e-cigs as a replacement for coffee...it is probably healthier." I'll
grant that vaporization ameliorates the problems merely caused by smoke
inhalation, but doesn't inhaling nicotine cause many health problems on its
own? I'll also not aware of there being health issues that result from
drinking a normal amount of tea or coffee.

~~~
gwern
> but doesn't inhaling nicotine cause many health problems on its own?

Nicotine on its own causes very little harm.

(A word of advice, though, if you decide to read up on this topic: it is
extremely common in the research literature to lazily conflate tobacco with
nicotine. You will routinely find abstracts which say something like 'we
sampled smokers...' and then in the conclusion write '...we conclude that
nicotine damages cognitive performance', as if tobacco was nothing but
solidified nicotine. When you find something negative about nicotine, you need
to check that tobacco is not driving the results.)

~~~
mikestew
> it is extremely common in the research literature to lazily conflate tobacco
> with nicotine.

It is also assumed that the tobacco is burned. Sure, snuff can cause oral
cancer (unlikely though it may be in comparison to cigarettes), but if you
dodge the oral cancer bullet what are the other potential problems? I have no
idea because everything I find conflates tobacco use with burning it and
inhaling it. Smoking is bad, we get it. Smoking automotive tires is probably
bad, too. How about the effects of tobacco itself, separate from the bad
effects of burning something and inhaling it?

------
danpalmer
If I smoked, it certainly wouldn't be something I would show off to others
readily or be proud of in any way, I'd see it as an embarrassment. Even if
these are safer, I still consider them to be anti-social.

I'm not a smoker, but I can't see why e-cigarettes should be anything more
than a way to help stop smoking.

~~~
tomjen3
Why not? If the are not dangerous to others, what is the big deal? If it is
just an image thing, we have an advertising industry quite good at changing
those images.

------
hershel
Since people here talk about the difference of e-cigs and cigarettes , i.e.
the lack of effects on MAOI, have anybody tried any juice that claims to have
that effect on MAOI, for example "aroma ejuice" ?

How were the results for you ? And does anybody know about research or
regulation of this types of ejuices ?

And since those same MAOI affecting compounds(probably beta carbolates) found
in tobacco ,are found in brewed coffee, kinds of seasoning, grilled foods and
other stuff, have anybody noticed a combination of vaping and some food more
effective ?

~~~
praxeologist
Beta-carboline MAOI's were originally hypothesized to be what is important for
those who feel something is missing with nicotine-only eliquid. After 3 years
of working on this, I can tell you that this is not true. What's important is
the other "minor tobacco alkaloids" like anatabine, anabasine, myosimine, etc.

Beta-carboline MAOI's, like the minor alkaloids, do have a potentiating effect
with nicotine and therefore increase satisfaction or the potential for
addiction; however, these MAOI's are pyrosynthesized (created by burning)
20-40x. This means that these MAOI's are not a significant component of a WTA
eliquid or non-burned tobacco like the snus many people turn to for the
"something missing".

~~~
gwern
> What's important is the other "minor tobacco alkaloids" like anatabine,
> anabasine, myosimine, etc.

Interesting. Could you provide more info about this?

------
rogerthis
I really feel like an ET. I'm from a world of cigarrete tv commercials;
marlboro mclaren car; my mom, at 73, still smokes, daddy smoked until his last
day and his death cause was not related to tobacco; grandfathers too; I
studied in a technical high school where the teenagers could freely smoke; in
university, there was one teacher that smoked cigars in the classroom...lost
world of youth.

------
stevewillows
I recently switched from smoking half a pack a day to vaping about 95%. I
still smoke here and there, but the craving is covered.

I had one of those smokes that looks like a cigarette, but it was garbage. The
e-liquid with a KangerTech EVOD is the way to go.

Outside of the health benefits or whatever, the smell is one of the best
reasons to switch. It's a good career move.

------
girvo
I used a nicotine spray. I have done for a few months now, it works
sublingually. I used it (and patches) to quit smoking, and I'm nearly there,
only a few weeks left.

What I find interesting though, is that while the spray does indeed get rid of
the cravings, it (and the e-cigs I've used) is not the same "feeling" as
smoking. This is possibly because of the lack of any MAOIs in the liquid
itself.

How many of those using e-cigs here are ex-smokers? How many picked it up
because it's a socially "acceptable" drug that you can now take without
killing yourself slowly? I find it such a fascinating topic!

~~~
scotth
I am an e-cig user, and an ex-smoker. There are five of us now in my group of
friends.

I love the things. It's become a fun hobby for us. We swap flavours, buy
hardware to show off, and talk about our experience whenever we're together.
Way more fun than smoking ever was.

And, take this with a grain of salt (sample size of one), but I feel _way_
better. No more coughing in the mornings, I take hills on my bike like a pro,
and I'd swear I look healthier.

~~~
jimzvz
> _And, take this with a grain of salt (sample size of one), but I feel way
> better. No more coughing in the mornings, I take hills on my bike like a
> pro, and I 'd swear I look healthier._

This is the same for me. A huge thing for me is that the tiredness that I feel
when I smoke is nonexistent on ecigs.

~~~
fein
Here's another anecdote for the train!

Quit smoking in about 1 month from vaping, and that was 2-3 years ago. It's an
awesome hobby, I have great stamina, and I can taste food. For the last year
or so I've been riding a bike to work every day, averaging about 6-8 miles.

------
dageshi
I've always thought that part of what made quitting cigarettes so hard is the
social aspect. Laws preventing it force fellow smokers together in designated
areas where I guess they smoke and chat. To suddenly quit not only means
you're suffering from the physical withdrawl but also the social aspect.
e-cigs seem like the only alternative to actual cigarettes which mean you
don't lose that social aspect since you can hang out with other smokers while
you vape, should you wish.

------
balbaugh
One thing these e-cig companies could try in order to boost their rep is
raising public awareness of the importance of recycling batteries.

Imagine battery recycling stations at all the places that cell these e-cigs
which contain batteries themselves.

------
SimpleXYZ
Here is my guess: 2/3 of cancer is from smoke, 1/3 is from nicotine. E-cigs
are 66% safer/better than analog cigs.

