
Sense – Wake up when it's right for you - clayallsopp
http://hello.is
======
njharman
The body works amazingly well when taken care of and listened too. Really.
Instead of hyper tracking every aspect of your life [and making assumptions
based on that data] Just exercise, eat well, no caffeine, minimal sugar/food
after dark, get 10+min of sun around noon, go to sleep when tired. All of
which is almost impossible for 90% of people who are forced into regimented,
high stress, excessive work lives.

~~~
mbillie1
This is, sadly, advice which gets ignored by an overwhelming number of people
in our industry. I know _so many_ otherwise smart folks who buy a FitBit and
track their caloric intake only to then drive (not go outside and walk) 2
blocks to get lunch at McDonalds or someplace similar. You don't need a
product/app to live a healthy lifestyle... most likely if you are trying to
solve a health/lifestyle problem by purchasing something, that is just
symptomatic of yet another unhealthy aspect of your lifestyle.

~~~
aaronem
> most likely if you are trying to solve a health/lifestyle problem by
> purchasing something, that is just symptomatic of yet another unhealthy
> aspect of your lifestyle

Tell that to the thirty pounds I've lost, over the last couple months, by dint
of using a Basis band to track calories out, and logging what I eat to do the
same for calories in.

~~~
gordjw
Could you have done it without the band though?

~~~
aaronem
Not and have any idea how close I am to my target deficit; I'd either err low
and fail to lose the weight, or err high and badly endanger my health via
malnutrition. With the band, I know exactly where I'm coming in on a daily
basis, and I can, for example, plot calorie deficit over delta-weight and see
where I should be aiming for best effect.

In general, I'm surprised to see such a Luddite attitude espoused on HN. What
kind of engineer doesn't see the value in collecting the necessary data to
characterize a problem or a process accurately? That's Step One.

~~~
gordjw
Yeah, I love to collect data on my running, for example. But my point is I'd
(and probably you would also) be doing it anyway, with or without the data.

The basis band you mention looks pretty cool though, going to check that out
further.

------
philbarr
What affects my sleep isn't me setting my alarm for the wrong time, it's my 13
week old baby.

I'm sure I've seen a few things like this in the past. I wonder if they could
adopt it for use as a baby monitor? We do currently have a sleep monitor but
that just sets off an alarm if she hasn't moved in 20 seconds (or I pick her
up and forget to turn the damn thing off, grrrr).

I could see this being a really useful baby monitor that:

\- sets off an alarm if no movement in 20 seconds (important one this,
obviously)

\- lets you know if your baby is drifting off into sleep or is basically just
messing about and still wide awake. Like, are you going to be able to go to
bed now or should you just make a brew?

\- a recording of and detailed description of sleep patterns during the night,
so you've got an idea of how to organise your nights; like maybe you could
work out when she's more likely to wake up at?

\- a history and some kind of comparison chart, because with babies it changes
all the time, so you might be able to predict and adapt in advance.

\- an advance warning of when she's coming out of sleep. Babies go from
slightly peckish to screaming their head off hungry in a couple of minutes,
and it takes 5 minutes to warm a bottle. Having a "she's gonna need feeding
soon alarm" would be really handy.

~~~
contingencies
Haha, 3 weeks here! I feel your pain. Work output on complex abstract thinking
tasks has descended to terrible. It's not just the sleep, either. It's
constant interruption when you _do_ get going...

~~~
philbarr
Ouch! 3 weeks was hard! Believe me I'm much happier now at 13 weeks than I was
at 3.

They tell you it gets easier but it really does, honest!

I work from home so it's a constant thing. We also have a Golden Retriever who
likes to run in and jump around and see what's going on when the screaming
gets going just to add a little extra stress to the situation :)

Wouldn't change it, though. I know that's a cliche but it is true.

------
david_shaw
From the landing page:

 _> >> We all have a natural sleep cycle, but a normal alarm will wake you
regardless. Sense’s Smart Alarm, knows the right time to wake you, so you will
feel alert and refreshed._

This is the part I like best. I wrote a web application
([http://sleepyti.me](http://sleepyti.me)) designed to let people calculate
their own "optimized bed times" based on when they need to get up -- in other
words, doing what Sense claims to do, but in reverse. The problem, of course,
is that if your dog starts barking in the middle of the night, waking you up
for an hour -- or if your sleep cycle lengths are significantly different from
the norm -- then the app won't work.

It's interesting to me, both because of the consistent traffic to sleepyti.me
and the vast array of sleep apps and products, how neglected a good night's
rest seems to be. I'm not sure if it's a cultural phenomenon or just a change
in human sleep behavior, but everyone I know seems to be in a constant sleep
deficit.

If you look at products like Sense, FitBit, Beddit, Sleep Cycle (app),
Sleepyti.me, etc, you'll notice that the market is supporting _basic human
function_ in those that aren't generally ill. I think it's indicative of a
more serious problem that we -- especially in science and technology related
fields -- can't seem to make ourselves go to bed.

All of these hacks are great, and the metrics can be very useful... but in the
end, nothing beats getting eight hours of sleep per night. Try it for a week
or two; the difference might astound you.

~~~
acrooks
Hi David, first of all, thank you very much for creating sleepyti.me - I use
it almost every night when setting an alarm.

Have you ever considered a responsive view of it so you can select your
parameters more easily on a phone without having to zoom in?

------
DougWebb
So, a WiFi-attached device sitting in my bedroom with a high-sensitivity
microphone, a proximity detector, and unknown software? I think I'll pass,
even though the product seems cool and useful otherwise.

Sure, I've got my cellphone in my bedroom at night and it's got the mic,
network connection, and unknown software. But I figure there's a much better
chance of someone discovering that Google or Sprint has installed a backdoor
into my phone's OS or hardware that's sending recordings illicitly than there
is of someone discovering the same thing about a niche product.

If the software was open (such that I could compile and install it myself if I
wanted to), and the collected data was open and available to me too, I'd be a
lot more inclined to buy this. Those changes would also create the possibility
of an add-on developer community that could be constantly providing new
software capabilities to the device, which makes it even more compelling as a
product. For example, philbarr is asking about a bunch of baby monitor
features; those could all be added with software changes, I'd bet.

~~~
xpose2000
They offer an API. It states so in their kickstarter campaign.
[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hello/sense-know-
more-s...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hello/sense-know-more-sleep-
better)

~~~
epi16
That's very different than being able to examine the source code and the data
to see where everything is going. Also, though I'm not a rabid proponent of
FOSS software, in this case, I would prefer to have many eyes on this code,
since the authors are unknown (to me) and the data is sensitive.

------
frio
I grabbed a Beddit ([http://www.beddit.com/](http://www.beddit.com/)) off
Indiegogo, which does something similar. Compared to Fitbit (put something on;
remember to start it), apps (remember to start it) and others, I was hoping it
would be frictionless -- hop into bed, start collecting metrics.
Unfortunately, aside from the long (long) time required to deliver a useful
Android app, it's failed me in a few ways.

1\. You need the app running to collect metrics from the device (so, still
some friction). I forget the app all the time; at the end of the day, I drop
my phone on a charger and crawl into bed. Relying on humans to actively
intervene is, unfortunately, suboptimal.

2\. I was hoping it'd attach to my wifi and dump metrics to an API I could
query (there's no smart alarm, so attaching it to my own stack of stuff seemed
cool). Unfortunately, it sends data via a private Bluetooth protocol to your
phone, rather than the wifi. Intercepting this is non-trivial (although the
Android Bluetooth debugging stack helps). I'm trying to build a receiver on
the Pi currently.

3\. The API still doesn't really exist.

My use case is slightly different from others. I've got a chronic condition,
and I'm not really interested in "did I sleep well last night?", which Beddit
seems to have targeted. I'm much more interested in trends over a period of
time, once my illness flares -- "am I waking up more often?", "how much time
am I spending in bed, rather than active?", "over the past week, how many
times have I gotten up -- should I see a doctor?". This should correlate with
other smart devices (scales -- "how much weight have I lost?"; fitbit -- "am I
still relatively active?") to give me a more holistic view of my health. So,
long-term data retention is important to me (CockroachDB looks quite neat!).

Smart alarms and overnight statistics are interesting, but I hope companies
developing devices for the quantified self start to pay more attention to
long-term health data. It paints a far more interesting story :).

~~~
aaronem
My Basis band addresses your point 1 quite well; all I have to do is wear it
to bed.

Unfortunately, there's no good API (and your choice of three variously lousy
ones [1]), and it syncs in the same way as the Beddit does, i.e., via
Bluetooth to a phone. (Or via USB to a computer, but that's not much more
help.)

I've thought about trying to MITM the data on its way out from the PC to
Basis's sync endpoint, in order to see whether I can trap it there instead of
having to query it back out of one of Basis's various APIs once it's synced.
On the other hand, I've already got > 1 month of data synced, so I'm going to
need some method of extracting data from their backend in any case. (But on
the third hand, since Intel bought Basis and Basis apparently doesn't bother
much with new development any more, I figure it might be handy to have a
backend for sync data in case the hardware becomes otherwise useless.)

[1] Two equally undocumented and unstable not-really-supposed-to-be-public
APIs, for which various clients exist on Github in various states of
disrepair, and a third, also undocumented but probably more stable, API which
feeds their web UI..

~~~
desireco42
So I was looking for Basis to maybe release next version of their device, then
they got acquired by Intel and I was hoping it will not die horrible death,
yet from your description this is what is happening.

I am using Fitbit and Basis is what I really need. I think by next year we
will have something along the lines that Basis promised.

~~~
aaronem
My Basis band is actually the second revision of the hardware ("Basis Carbon
Steel" vs "Basis B1"). If you're thinking about buying, I definitely recommend
avoiding the 1.0 version, which uses a rather bizarre custom band arrangement
that apparently has a nasty habit of falling apart under heavy load; the
Carbon Steel version takes a standard 26mm watch band.

And I can't really knock Basis on the hardware score; the device itself is
actually quite nice, from build quality to resilience to battery life. Their
web UI's not bad, too, but what I really need is an API to pull that data out
and integrate it with everything else I'm logging, and it just doesn't seem
like they give a damn about publishing something stable, nor as far as I can
tell have they ever.

On the whole, I'm pretty equivocal. On the one hand, the Basis device is
excellent, and while I can't speak to accuracy, it's quite precise. On the
other, the software support isn't sufficient, and the organization doesn't
give any indication of being motivated to fix that. I'm not sorry I spent $200
on a Basis band, but you might be; think it over carefully.

~~~
aaronem
Make that $150; they've knocked fifty bucks off the price since I got mine a
month ago. I wonder if they're about to rev the hardware again.

------
system_32
Why do they need a kickstarter? They have the money for an entire team and are
hiring more.

~~~
macNchz
That was my first thought. Crunchbase shows they raised $10.5m at the end of
January(1). Now they need $100k of crowdfunding to build this thing?
Disingenuous at best.

[1][http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/hello-
inc](http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/hello-inc)

~~~
ernopp
the kickstarter is surely to find & take orders from an audience for the soft
launch

------
hoopism
Those videos have no substance... I realize in marketing that it doesn't
ALWAYS make sense to layout all the details but these types of wearable/smart
devices have been blowing up and the claims get more and more vague.

I get agitated watching these. I find myself saying "What does it actually
do!?" throughout the whole thing. I could completely be missing the boat on
this trend but things like this and the weird eyepatch that came up a while
ago completely baffle me.

~~~
exodust
The money shot is the alarm that apparently knows when you should wake up.

I found the video hard to listen to. The guy has a bedside tone going on, a
bit sleazy in his efforts to endorse the product with smooth caring ambience!

------
scottmwinters
Integrating this with Nest would make it one of the coolest and most useful
embedded electronics on the market. What if it adjusted the temperature
immediately and automatically when it determined that you were cold or hot? A
sensor is great. Its really cool. But a control system that reacts based on
the sensor data...thats a great device with a large market

------
fintler
This is an idea that I hope becomes more widespread for operations folks --
optimizing what alerts to prioritize fixing based on the number that result in
wakeup calls.

At the Velocity conference this year, Etsy did an amazing talk on sleep and
being oncall (I can't seem to find it on youtube?). They released an open
source app that links their oncall system to a sleep device (jawbone or
fitbit) at
[https://github.com/etsy/opsweekly](https://github.com/etsy/opsweekly). Also,
they had a nice graph which described how they were woken up less over the
year because of this system.

Having this metric as another layer behind primary error budgets (app downtime
is inversely proportional to the number of times your devs get to deploy new
features) is a nice way to keep your operations staff very happy.

------
dominotw
Another kickstarter garbage with a sentimental promo. Next.

------
joshfraser
If you're being waken up every day by unnatural means, your body is not
getting enough sleep. A few months ago I threw away my alarm clock. Now I just
wake up whenever my body wants to. It's been great.

~~~
toast0
That's great if your schedule fits your sleep schedule, but I'm not sure
that's very common. A product that can wake you up in time for your schedule
and avoid waking you in the middle of a sleep cycle could make it easier to
make due with less sleep. At the extreme of little sleep required for newborn
overnight feedings, for me, three hours of sleep is significantly worse than
two or four. That said, sleep cycles tend to be shorter and shallower as the
night goes on, after several hours of continuous sleep, the penalty for waking
up at a bad point is not that bad.

------
dmix
Looks very similar to [http://www.withings.com/us/withings-
aura.html](http://www.withings.com/us/withings-aura.html)

I really want one of these (in general).

~~~
pat2man
Yeah I don't think I would shell out for a Kickstarter that may never ship
when there is a pretty comparable product already on the market.

~~~
IanCal
Well the withings one isn't actually out yet, and it doesn't say how much it
is.

------
rayiner
Here is an interesting look at whether any of these sorts of devices actually
work (in comparison to a real polysonogram):
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-christopher-winter/sleep-
ti...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-christopher-winter/sleep-
tips_b_4792760.html). The answer is: most of these things claim to be able to
do a lot more with simple sensing techniques than they can actually do
accurately.

~~~
gr3yh47
If your room is too hot, sense will tell you

...in case your skin can't

if your room is too bright, sense will tell you

...in case your eyes don't

~~~
jareds
I have no usable vision but can sometimes tell if a light is on. I don't know
if light effects my sleeping though so that feature could actually be useful.

------
kiernan
I'd like to see either an add-on which is a lamp bright enough to gradually
wake you up with blue light, or for it to be able to work with things like
LIFX or Phillips Hue to do the same.

------
ssivark
I find the SleepBot app to be quite useful for a "fuzzy alarm". Simpler
technology, and the app listens to you all night (kinda creepy, I agree) but
the alarm works as desired.

[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lslk.sleep...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lslk.sleepbot)

------
Fizzadar
Sleep Cycle already does this - without the need for any extra items lying
around... can't see how this improves on it.

------
ambivalence
Where's the bundle with the "Keep-My-5yo-Kid-Asleep-Until-My-Alarm-Goes-Off"
option? Would pay for that.

------
joevandyk
How does this work with cats walking on my pillow at three am? Does that mess
up the sensors?

~~~
josefresco
Also, how does it handle the 1-3 times I get up to pee, let the dogs out to
pee, or grab a drink?

------
apierre
A part of me is really interested in these sleeping analytic devices but on
the other hand, I am always sleeping with my phone on airplane mode.

Not to enter the EMF debate, I wonder if being pinged all night long by all
sort of waves is going to make my bedroom zen.

------
stinos
Maybe I'm a bit paranoid but, even though afaik no proper research has found
evidence of it, maybe putting a device that is constantly using wifi right
next to your brain for the entire night might not be the best idea healthwise?

~~~
cma
It isn't torrenting all night long, how many packets does it even send?

------
jonemo
> It simply attaches to your pillow and invisibly tracks your sleep at night.

My pillow tends to be either outside my bed and/or occupied by my cat when I
wake up. Would this device still work under those circumstances?

------
jonco91
It's nice that it clips to your pillow and not to your body. Downside is the
battery isn't rechargeable or replaceable.

------
mztan
I wonder how applicable these kinds of devices are to babies. Are baby
monitors already capable of similar types of sleep tracking?

~~~
apierre
We have the Withings baby monitor with noise and movement tracking.

------
michaelZejoop
Is there a use case for sleep interruptions due to bathroom trips for enlarged
prostate? That would affect its utility (for some).

------
egypturnash
Did they pay to license Aphex Twin's 'Avril 14th'?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfYl6_f2Mdg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfYl6_f2Mdg)

Huh, turns out they did.
[https://twitter.com/jamesproud/status/491986164937535488](https://twitter.com/jamesproud/status/491986164937535488)

I am interested in this device but not Kickstarter backing interested. More
like 3rd-gen price-drop interested.

------
zindex
Who recognized the song from Iran so far away from the video:
[https://screen.yahoo.com/snl-digital-short-iran-
far-00000018...](https://screen.yahoo.com/snl-digital-short-iran-
far-000000189.html)

~~~
pdeuchler
not to encourage OT discussion, but the song is "Avril 14th" by Aphex Twin...
it sounds like the Lonely Island riffed off the main melody for "Iran So Far".
The song is also the main sample in "Blame Game" by Kanye West from My
Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy

------
stratigos
seems completely useless to me. the pretense of the video ad def confirmed my
bias.

------
dmazin
How is this different/better than Zeo?

~~~
donpdonp
Thanks for mentioning the Zeo. I used it for a month a few years ago. It was
ahead of its time using 1-wire EEG monitoring. I felt the REM graph was
actually telling me something. Any sleep monitor to try and take its place
must be EEG based. An accelerometer is inadequate for sleep monitoring.

The closest thing I know of is the OpenBCI.com project (Brain-Computer
Interface) which is entirely an EEG project.

~~~
borgchick
I loved the idea of the Zeo, but as comfortable as the headband was, I never
did manage to fall asleep with it on. I guess I am just super sensitive to
things on my head while in bed. I ended up using the Zeo as a toy to do
interesting BCI hacks with.

------
_random_
no WP ? => trashcan

------
sly_g
Wow, how did we survive for 100'000 years without it, I wonder.

