
Amazon’s Alexa for landlords is a privacy nightmare waiting to happen - walterbell
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/09/amazons-alexa-for-landlords-is-a-privacy-nightmare-waiting-to-happen/
======
tikwidd
My landlord installed a meth detector in my home which looks like a large
smoke detector on the ceiling. It apparently communicates via the mobile
network, but I have no idea how it actually measures meth. I doubt it actually
measures anything (the product is made by
[http://www.methminder.co.nz/](http://www.methminder.co.nz/) but there is no
actual information there). Point is, it makes tenants feel less secure. Which
makes landlords feel more secure (ironically, products like these exploit the
moral panic and lack of security that landlords feel regarding the meth
crisis). Even if this Alexa for Landlords does nothing nefarious, its real
purpose is to create that feeling of insecurity that landlords want.

Maybe, just maybe, the landlord is listening. And we better not refuse the
device because maybe they'll get the idea that we don't trust them...

~~~
vharuck
>Q What does Meth Minder cost per month? A Monitoring starts at $49.95 per
month. ($11.53 per week) See full pricing here. All prices include gst

I appreciate the poetics of a rent-seeking company targeting landlords.

~~~
codetrotter
Yeah but the landlords are just gonna pile this costs onto their tenants,
aren’t they? So in the end the tenants are the ones paying for it, not the
landlords.

~~~
mortehu
If meth is an actual problem, maybe it pays for itself in decontamination
savings?

~~~
leetcrew
some of the easiest ways of making meth have a serious risk of fire or
explosion. perhaps that is what they're worried about?

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tonyedgecombe
_It’s called Alexa for Residential that, according to Amazon, “makes it easy
for property managers to set up and manage Alexa-powered smart home
experiences throughout their buildings.”_

That could get really dystopian.

~~~
swarnie_
What features dose it have?

I'm used to rented properties where you get no control over things like the
thermostat (which are all Hive managed) but that's roughly where i draw the
line.

~~~
have_faith
> I'm used to rented properties where you get no control over things like the
> thermostat

In what country is this legal?

~~~
quickthrowman
Um, the United States of America (depends on the state)

In my state, landlords have to keep a property heated to a certain temperature
during the winter, but there’s no law saying the landlord has to provide a
thermostat. Many older buildings have a central boiler and radiators.. how do
you propose thermostats in each unit with that setup?

~~~
blibble
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermostatic_radiator_valve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermostatic_radiator_valve)

~~~
tedunangst
Yeah, that's great for turning off the radiator but does nothing for the pipe
of pure magma running through the bathroom.

------
georgyo
Privacy aside, this whole concept seems like it will flop.

This is a great move for Amazon, but I don't really understand the benefit to
renters or landlords.

"Luxury" apartments in NYC used to have ipod/iphone docks in the wall the
connected to the speaker system. Every single agent talked about this great
feature, but it just looked awful. Besides the fact that I'm an Android user,
the connector was pre lightning so at some point I'm sure the landlord has to
upgrade everyone's wall dock. A feature that only some can use, and fewer will
use. Only so they can seem extra fancy to a select crowd.

The point of that antidote is that this Amazon "feature" will likely only be
in "luxury" buildings as well. Most landlords don't even allow their rent to
be paid online. I doubt they will get "alexa pay my rent" to work reliably.

About half the people I know will not stand have any home spy devices in their
home on principal alone, and the other half already have one. Putting this in
you're building seems like a way to make half your renter base dismiss you,
and redundant for the other half.

~~~
aden1ne
> Most landlords don't even allow their rent to be paid online.

This just completely flummoxes me. The US really is a third world nation
sometimes.

Here in the Netherlands it is unthinkable to pay your rent in cash. Most
people pay their rent via standing order, or for the few people who haven't
automated their payments, via direct wire transfer.

~~~
ghaff
I assume they mean cash, in the sense of typically a bank withdrawal via
check. In which case, they can almost certainly also set up a recurring check
payment via their bank online. I actually send quite a few "checks" but with
the exception of my housekeeper and some service people I rarely actually
write out a check.

~~~
kwhitefoot
I haven't written a cheque in over twenty years, they don't exist any more in
Norway.

~~~
jdeibele
I find it more convenient to use checks for some purchases but the thing that
makes them bad for small businesses is banks charging insufficient fund fees
to both the depositor and the person who wrote the check.

We bought some salsa from a local business yesterday and she takes Venmo,
Zelle, or cash (not the app). If she took a check and it bounced (insufficient
funds), then she would be out the money and probably a $12 fee besides.

[https://www.bankofamerica.com/smallbusiness/resources/fees-a...](https://www.bankofamerica.com/smallbusiness/resources/fees-
at-a-glance.go) It's interesting to see how business checking accounts have
changed - there's no free level. You're charged a fee for every deposit past a
certain number. I wonder how many small businesses are run now without a
business checking account. But a credit union like Unitus
[https://www.unitusccu.com/business-
checking/has](https://www.unitusccu.com/business-checking/has) free business
checking accounts. Deposits are charged $.15 after the first 75 but if you
sweep your electronic accounts (Cash app, Venmo, PayPal, etc.) in every other
day you could take 5 of them.

I only converted about 2 years ago to taking pictures of checks and depositing
them. It's much easier than going to the bank or mailing the deposits to
Charles Schwab. Three of us did a joint purchase and I got a check from one.
The other sent me payment via PayPal but PayPal took 3% as a fee. It didn't
bother me enough to say something but it definitely didn't make me happy. It'd
be nice to have an option that was zero-cost or $.10 fee per transaction. I
bank with credit unions that don't have Zelle yet.

~~~
ghaff
> The other sent me payment via PayPal but PayPal took 3% as a fee.

Presumably this was funded by a credit card. I believe it's free if it's from
PayPal balance or a checking account.

------
KaoruAoiShiho
Former NSA chief joins Amazon's Board of Directors.

[https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/9/21429635/amazon-keith-
alex...](https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/9/21429635/amazon-keith-alexander-
board-of-directors-nsa-cyber-command)

~~~
jjcon
And? This implying Alexa is spying on your conversations crap is getting out
of hand on HN.

The dude is ceo of a cybersecurity company and has very unique and deep
insights into global security threats. He’s definitely someone you would want
to have around to advise on security especially as foreign threats are ramping
up on the digital front.

Alexa, Google assistant, Siri are demonstrably not listening to your
conversations, us in the tech industry should know better than to spread this
sort of FUD.

------
rbecker
This reveals one giant cost usually not covered by rent vs. own economics: if
you rent something, a car, a computer, a home, you _don 't control it_.

This is why we should all be very worried about the move towards as-a-service
economies.

~~~
tsss
If you buy something you no longer control it either. Cars nowadays can be
disabled remotely with the press of a button and are not repairable because
you don't have access to the software.

~~~
rbecker
That is too often true. But at least you have the right to attempt to control
it. Sadly even that is under attack, with laws against circumvention and
"reverse engineering" (i.e. looking at how something works).

------
_alex_
> But we all know landlords are, by default, shitty

That’s some high quality journalism.

------
Wolfenstein98k
I don't see what the risk is. I hate this stuff and don't have any of it in my
home, but what exactly is the unique risk in this tenancy situation?

~~~
jjcon
I agree - the situation described in the article is so so illegal. If a
landlord did this they could be sued out of existence. As we move into the
future smart homes are becoming ubiquitous. It is only natural that they
become built into homes including rentals for those that want it.

If a landlord wanted to spy on you there are far less obvious ways to do it
(that are also very illegal).

------
simonjgreen
Huge presumption here that drop in won't be covered

~~~
nieve
But it's not entirely unwarranted given Amazon's history of their privacy
declarations not being 100% reliable. Their track record isn't as bad as some
companies, but I wouldn't trust them without an outside review and they're not
going to let that happen for a host of reasions.

~~~
simonjgreen
Agreed, just pointing out the basis of this article is an assumption that
amazon won't have thought about drop in when thinking about their other
privacy measures for this product.

------
crazygringo
None of these seem like problems to me. This is just adding some commands to
Alexa for convenience, like being able to submit an apartment maintenance
request.

Amazon isn't making it possible for your landlord to spy on you -- first of
all, as the article notes, the landlord would have to associate the Alexa
account with their own, which makes no sense, since the point of Alexa is it's
tied to _your_ Amazon account, so you can order things from Amazon. (Unless my
landlord wants to pay for all my shopping...) But more importantly, spying is
highly illegal. I don't care about Amazon -- I trust the police and courts
here.

Second, Amazon has zero business reason to allow landlords to spy on their
tenants. It would be a huge PR backlash for virtually zero financial benefit.
So I'm not even remotely worried about that, because capitalism.

Third, the idea that one day you might _only_ be able to fulfill apartment
requests through Alexa, instead of a website, is just ludicrous fearmongering.
It's about as likely as requiring it all to go through an Apple Watch.

Finally, one random author's opinion about whether or not an included Alexa is
an amenity worth paying for is completely meaningless. Every apartment comes
with a set of amenities (or not) and the _market_ determines the ultimate
rental price for that set. Landlords aren't dumb. They're not installing
amenities nobody wants. If the author thinks it's not worth the price, they're
just not the target demographic for that building, which is fine, but it's not
exactly news that's worth publishing.

------
devnull255
"Alexa, do not disturb."

I use this feature regularly to prevent drop-ins when I don't want them.

------
kome
personal curiosity: is there someone that uses those devices in real life?

~~~
gambiting
I see you're already being downvoted, but I feel the same - I don't understand
why does anyone have any of these devices at home. It's nuts. Yet apparently
Alexa sold 50 million smart speakers or something like that.

~~~
fergie
I read alot about them, but I have never come across one in the wild despite
living in a fairly wealthy, gadget friendly environment. I agree that the
whole idea of voluntarily installing something like this seems mind-blowingly
nuts. Are real people actually using Alexa? If so- what for? Are there killer
reasons for using Alexa like there are for, say, a Tesla or an iPhone?

~~~
carlmr
I have three friends that own an Alexa. I think they bought it as a novelty
and now it only replaces the Bluetooth speaker and looking at the weather.

Still haven't seen a single reason to own one.

~~~
KingOfCoders
Owned three, threw all of them out. The AI was underwhelming in understanding,
even finding music. We ended up using it to tell the time when sitting at the
table without a computer. Now I own a wrist watch.

------
ralusek
I agree that this is nightmarish and gross, but I have another question.

> But we all know landlords are, by default, shitty.

What is with journalists for normal/non-political publications and
Marxism/Maoism, particularly recently?

I have literally never had a problem with a landlord. While I'm sure
unpleasant landlords are as common as unpleasant people, I can't help but
think that the only way to have had exclusively bad experiences with landlords
would be where the tenant inherently sees the nature of their relationship as
exploitative.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
I've had more than one landlord that insisted on stopping by once or twice a
month. "stopping by" was usually hanging around outside the property,
sometimes just knocking to "make sure everything is OK". And weirdly enough,
I've never had this while living with a man - only when I was living alone or
with another woman. It makes me feel unsafe and like I had no privacy in my
private home.

And my problems were pretty mild. The places I lived in were fairly well-kept.
Lots of folks have issues with roaches, leaks, and a slew of other issues that
fall on deaf ears. Lots of folks are actually unsafe. Lots of folks get
overcharged for things that come out of a security deposit (oh, a nail hole...
that'll be $300 plus paint - nevermind that we'd paint anyway). And so on.

This is, of course, because in many areas, there is little to no oversight of
landlords and no one really to help a tenant with issues. Decent folks being
landlords are the exception, not the rule.

~~~
ByteJockey
> Decent folks being landlords are the exception, not the rule.

This sounds like you're generalizing the experiences of you and those around
you just as much as the person you responded to.

Do we have any data on this? Or is this just a "we don't know, so everyone
goes with their own experience" sort of thing?

