

Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? - ryanelkins

I keep running up against different definitions of "the Cloud" and was wondering if there is a right answer or at least a general consensus on what exactly the term means. When I say that our startup, IActionable, is in "the Cloud" I'm referring to our use of Windows Azure, MS's cloud, and the distributed nature of our service, meaning that we can elastically scale within the resources of MS's cloud and boast some level of stability like a large company while only having to pay for the resources we use. Apps running within Azure, Amazon's cloud, Force.com, Google's App Engine, or Rackspace's cloud are "in the cloud" according to this definition.<p>I've noticed, however, that many people say they are in "the Cloud" where they define the cloud as a server on the internet. Their thinking goes that since they store all the information remotely and there is nothing on the client's computer, their client-server architecture makes them "in the cloud". By this definition every server on the internet is a cloud, and every web app is in some cloud or another.<p>So is it one or the other? Is there some other definition that I'm missing out on?
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novum
(Disclaimer: I work at Salesforce)

We at SFDC hear a lot about offers to businesses of "your own private cloud",
which is essentially marketing jargon for something very un-cloud-like:
running software locally, on your own servers, while you're completely
responsible for the entire operation. It's a grossly disingenuous hijacking of
the "cloud" terminology that I've found promotes confusion.

Most of the other responses here would match my own definition of the cloud:
software, offered as a service, where all the underpinnings (data center
management, software updates, redundancies, reliability) are abstracted away
from you. The key is that you only need two things to access a cloud resource:

    
    
      A web browser, preferably != IE6
      An internet connection
    

When I explain the cloud to people who don't read HN, I usually make a
comparison to Gmail and MS Office. You access Gmail through your web browser,
and there's no local software to download. When Google releases a new feature
or a bugfix or a security patch, there's no action required on your end.
You're simply up to date the next time you connect.

Contrast that with MS Office, which comes on a CD/DVD, requires a local
install process, and needs to be constantly patched for features and security.
All of the work to maintain that software falls to you, the end user.

~~~
rmc00
If you don't mind, I'm curious to find out why you view the private cloud as
un-cloud-like. I don't think the cloud is defined by where the service is
hosted or even how the service is paid for. To me, cloud computing is defined
by 3 big ideas.

1\. Virtualization is key. I think the cloud is marked by a construction from
dynamic pools of virtualized resources.

2\. Instead of focusing on individual physical components, the cloud focuses
on pools of compute resources. This seems to have led to higher priority for
service delivery.

3\. Finally, I think the cloud is defined by being convenient for the consumer
instead of being convenient for the provider.

Within those constraints, I usually call a cloud private if it is under the
control of an enterprise IT organization, in a way similar to older systems. I
think of the cloud as public if the provider is mostly in control instead of
the tenants.

With that definition of the private cloud in mind, the model offers a lot of
advantages to larger IT departments. The private cloud allows IT teams to more
quickly provision resources in support of business initiatives. It's also a
better way to invest in IT infrastructure. The model is inherently scalable,
which means that IT funds can be used to create value instead of keeping the
lights on so to speak.

Obviously, private clouds aren't for every IT organization, but I think the
private cloud has merit. As organizations globalize and just generally get
big, economies of scale can be leveraged internally to increase the quality of
IT projects and services.

~~~
Goladus
I agree. A private cloud should also have a standard API, so that applications
can be conveniently moved to a public cloud when it is secure and cost-
effective to do so.

~~~
jnoller
There; I disagree - if there were a standard API for clouds I might agree -
otherwise, it makes sense for internal clouds to adopt the API most convenient
for the end-users of that API. Sadly, that might mean something like SOAP,
which would make me sad.

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lnguyen
The use of the term "the Cloud" is basically for anything that's not the
traditional way of requesting and utilizing IT resources (aka rigid, pre-
allocated, persistent and more than likely tied to physical systems). And
that's probably why you're seeing so many different definitions.

What I think "cloud" should mean is the combining of individual resources
(computing, storage, etc.) into a large virtual pool that can be accessed and
allocated dynamically. This can be done within a corporation's own set of
servers and devices (private cloud) or by tapping into someone else's
collection of resources (public cloud providers like Amazon, Azure, etc.).

~~~
jnoller
Completely agreed; which is why "private cloud" isn't as an insane a term as
you might initially suspect (as I did when I first heard it).

If you have a global company, such as GE running it's own "private cloud"
where CPU, Storage and platforms can be spun up by departments, users and
others "on demand" and destroyed just as quickly, and it's distributed, fault-
tolerant and modular in architecture - why should that not qualify as "cloud"?

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Goladus
To me, a cloud is a distributed system of computing resources where the
resources can be dynamically allocated with an API. A hosted application
should be able to increase or decrease the available processors, memory, and
disk without human intervention. Human oversight should be implemented at
points where it makes sense for business and security, rather than at points
dictated by the limitations of technology. This means a cloud should do be
able to do significant automated management of DNS, networking, and
provisioning of fundamental operating system details.

The line between any classic distributed system or cluster and a 'cloud' is
blurry, but generally speaking a cloud's API should be internet-compatible and
capable of using commodity hardware to scale up with minimal (and preferably
asynchronous) intervention from system administrators.

As for 'The Cloud' -- currently I don't think there is 'The Cloud' the way
there is 'The World Wide Web', but it's theoretically possible. Right now 'The
Cloud' generally means 'A Public Cloud', which is a publicly available
distributed system like the one I described above. A Virtual Private Hosting
service is not a cloud, because allocation of resources typically involves a
sales contract of some sort. But the service itself it might theoretically run
on a cloud, and you can build a cloud out of VPSs.

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fizzfur
If my mum starting using The Cloud in sentences she would mean "The Internet",
she doesn't have the concept of a server, and doesn't really need to, she just
knows it's "Out there somewhere".

I think it would be unlikely for one of my peers (mostly developers) to
mention "The Cloud" unless they were trying to be intensionally buzzwordy for
comedy effect. They would be more specific.

I/We would however say:

    
    
      a cloud to mean clusters machines (probably split into VPSs)
      xxxx's cloud to mean xxxx's server infrastructure/platform
    

I like The Cloud as a common term to mean "Stored/Processed out there in the
internet somewhere", not as a well defined technical term.

~~~
ryanelkins
I think it feels "buzzwordy" because too many people abuse it. It is a
legitimate term but it is being stretched to the point where it is no longer
useful. To me a cloud is a system where I can dynamically change my resource
usage without having to really understand the underlying structure supporting
it. I don't install an OS, I don't monitor specific servers for failure, I
never upgrade anything; that level of minutiae is abstracted away.

~~~
lsc
This is a valid definition... but it's not most people's definition. For
example, if you are running on ec2, well, you've still gotta install the OS
(granted, there are tools that make it easier, but you still have to do it,
and you still have to keep up with security patches, etc..) you've still gotta
deal with failure, deal with upgrades, etc...

Granted, you could say that ec2 isn't cloud... you could say that ec2 is a VPS
system with a decent and fast provisioning API. Your definition would say that
hiroku and google app engine are 'cloud' - something few people would argue
with... it's just that most people call ec2 'cloud' as well.

This, I think, is why most technical people find the term 'cloud' to be
useless... there isn't a strong and generally accepted definition that isn't
so nebulous as to be not very useful.

~~~
jnoller
I don't think the need to consider maintenance and scalability removes
something from the definition of "the cloud" - consider the fact that on
modern VPSes and EC2 I can spin up new resources within a heartbeat - sure, I
still have to think about stuff, but instance on for elastic resources is what
I think caused the "cloud" term to come into being.

~~~
lsc
so your definition of the cloud differs from the definition ryanelkins gave.
This is all well and good, both the "completely abstracts hardware and OS
details" definition that Ryan gave and the "just allows you to really quickly
provision new hardware" definition you gave are fine definitions, and both are
useful services in many cases. but my point is that you get five nerds in a
room and you are going to have at least three completely different definitions
of "cloud"

~~~
jnoller
You're right - and that worries me (personally, and professionally). I do
think it's time the collective "we" start being a little bit more responsible
with the term, so that others might.

Otherwise I'm worried we're going to see someone try to rebrand the internet
as "the cloud" and then we're all doomed :)

~~~
lsc
I think "the cloud" has never had a solid, specific meaning, and it probably
never will. I don't begrudge marketing and middle management their own set of
jargon. Really, letting marketing and middle management have their own overly
vague words can be good sometimes. If the boss asks you to put something "In
the cloud" you have a lot of latitude to choose the solution that is most
suitable for the situation.

Hell, maybe "cloud" will end up in the vague but useful category like
"solution" I mean, sure, "solution" is even more broad than "cloud", but
sometimes it seems more concise than "product or service" in a sentence, so
it's still a word that I use sometimes.

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mathgladiator
For me, it is the idea of outsourcing infrastructure and treating computers as
a utility.

~~~
keefe
yes, agree. I think this is the talk from startup school where bezos used this
metaphor : <http://wn.com/jeff_bezos_at_startup_school_08>

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Qz
Computers I can't see and don't own. Suspiciously similar to a botnet.

Actually I'm less paranoid about it than that, but only slightly.

~~~
byoung2
How does that make Amazon AWS (which most people would call "cloud
infrastructure") any different from traditional shared hosting?

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technomancy
"The cloud means replacing your ops team with a clip-art picture of a cloud--
PROBLEM SOLVED." --Coda Hale

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dgudkov
IMO, cloud service is any service that a) scalable on demand, b)has ~100%
uptime, c) require no maintenance from customer. It doesn't matter whether it
is one server or 10000 servers - if it fits this model of consumption - it's
cloud.

~~~
whatusername
So cloud service is an outsourced mainframe? That's about the only thing that
fits all 3.

~~~
dgudkov
Why not, say, youtube?

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acabal
Whenever someone asks me what I think of cloud computing, I just reply with
this video: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UYa6gQC14o>

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Artagra
For me personally, I'd largely agree with your first definition - but I would
expand it to services run on "private clouds" (ie, a corporate having a couple
hundred virtual machines on a rack full of blades I would consider "cloud
based").

However, if I look at our customers (techies and enthusiasts who build their
own computers), they define a cloud based service as anything primarily online
- IE, your second definition. I think this definition is gaining ground.

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obsessive1
I don't think of the cloud as just a server elsewhere on the internet, but
more of a group of servers, like EC2, or Windows Azure, where the data is
shared between them, and backed up in various places.

I have heard many people refer to the internet in general as 'the cloud',
which I can understand, but I don't think of that as it's primary definition.

------
rblion
Optimist: Decentralized infrastructure that powers 21st century commerce and
acts as an infinite storage space for personal files.

Pessimist: Data Star (Earth's version of the Death Star) that will just become
another way for more ads to find us where ever we go in space and in time...

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teyc
Most people couldn't put their finger on exactly what Cloud is, but they don't
realize they fail because they don't understand the True Nature of Cloud.

A cloud is not Azure. It is not AWS. It is not Rackspace.

A cloud is not definable by what it is, but by what it is not.

Asking for a definition of a cloud, is like asking for the definitive IP
Address of www.amazon.com.

A cloud is a hand-wavy indirection, and abstraction of a compute or storage
infrastructure.

Each of the products you mentioned are not Cloud. They are manifestations of a
cloud. But they are not the Cloud, as they are no longer abstract.

------
g9
A cloud is a visible mass of droplets of water or frozen crystals suspended in
the atmosphere above the surface of the Earth or another planetary body. (c)
wikipedia.

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joey_bananas
To me it means not being in control of my own data.

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dstein
Outsourced data center on a pay-per-use basis.

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auxbuss
I think of it, at least this week, as:

    
    
      resilient Internet services with persistence

------
crad
To me, the cloud means trusting the base performance and uptime of my
application to someone else.

------
abraham
The (generally) light fluffy things in the air that produce rain.

------
billswift
There are already 33 comments here, and not a lot of agreement. "The Cloud"
just seems to me to be more marketing sucker-bait, basically (Web 2.0)2.0, I
wonder what they are going to call ((Web 2.0)2.0)2.0?

~~~
jnoller
I'm biased; but I suspect that much like "Web 2.0" there is some truth to the
"marketing". Web 2.0 saw the rise of user generated content, richer/leaner and
more interactive websites and applications.

I suspect the "cloud" trend will continue to allow us to abstract more of our
computing resources, and make computing/application construction pieces more
of a utility/commodity then they ever have been.

So despite it being used a bit too much in marketing - I think there's some
fire behind all the smoke, and dismissing it simply because marketing people
are blowing it around a lot runs the risk of ignoring a major technological
shift.

~~~
billswift
There is always some truth in effective marketing; like all good lies, it uses
truth in the service of falsehood.

------
cies
to me it means: computing power behind an api.

so my scripts can manage the data center (by growing/shrinking resource usage)

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Spoutingshite
Seriously, after all these years aren't we past this repetitive question?

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konad
I think it came from one of those network diagrams where you have :

local server <> picture of a cloud <> remote user

I now have to deal with management types who have read too many magazines
wanting their data stored "in the cloud".

The management of the company I share an office with is seriously thinking
about moving all their email "into the cloud" because the person that was
responsible for backup did it wrong and they lost some important emails. They
now associate "in the cloud" with "reliable". They are paying for an expensive
consultant to come in and tell them what to do.

------
jpr
> many people say they are in "the Cloud" where they define the cloud as a
> server on the internet.

To me, cloud would mean that the service has very good reliability, which your
run of the mill "server on the internet" does not necessarily have.

