
Allegations of overpriced repair charges at Apple Store [video] - vowelless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XneTBhRPYk
======
beloch
For those that didn't watch:

A laptop with a bent LCD backlight connector pin is taken to an Apple store.
The staff notices that the humidity indicators have changed color, so warranty
is voided. To fix it, they want to replace several boards and possibly the
display, which will cost the user "over a thousand" and possibly more.

The user (CBC's The National) then takes the laptop to a third party repair
shop (Louis Rossman's) that spots the problem in under a minute and, taking
just one more minute, bends the pin back restoring full function to the
laptop. Rossman then states that he normally wouldn't charge for such a quick
fix.

\--------------

We must ask how this happened. Rossman first shone a light through the Apple
logo at the back of the monitor and was able to see a mouse pointer moving
around, indicating that the computer and LCD panel are both functioning. This
identified the backlight as a problem, and the first thing to check was, "is
it plugged in?". It wasn't. Rossman has a simple procedure to follow that
allows him to zero in on the problem.

Why wasn't Apple able to diagnose this problem similarly? Rossman is clearly a
talented and dedicated individual. However, an Apple repair technician has the
resources and training of a multi-billion dollar company behind him. Apple
never even got as far as diagnosing the backlight as the problem. When faced
with a monitor that doesn't come on properly, why isn't their first step
similar to Rossman's?

To take the car analogy from the video a bit further, how many car owners
stick to using the dealer to service their vehicles for the entire life of the
car? Once the warranty has expired, there are usually cheaper and more
competent options available. It's not uncommon for car owners to develop a
long-term relationship with a mechanic they trust. As discussed later in this
video, Apple legally harasses third party repairers and anyone importing
proprietary parts. Would you buy a car from a company that tries to lock you
into dealer service by suing your neighborhood mechanic or anyone who dares to
import _parts_ specific to their vehicles?

~~~
ken
> To take the car analogy from the video a bit further, how many car owners
> stick to using the dealer to service their vehicles for the entire life of
> the car?

Most of them, I assumed. Is that not the case?

~~~
iofiiiiiiiii
I only know of one person who regularly uses the dealership for servicing. Car
dealerships are known for ripoff prices - you only use it if you don't know
any better, don't care about the cost or just want a one-stop "they take care
of everything" shop (non-dealership repair shops are often more specialized to
particular aspects of cars).

------
devwastaken
For those that didn't watch the video before commenting the 'water indicators'
happen with just normal humidity, not actual contact with water. Like the
little moisture indicators digikey gives out. It's a terrible method of
determining damage.

The real issue however is that apple purposefully makes it hard to do repairs
and replacement. It's anti consumer behavior, and it amazes me that some of
the culture here doesn't find it appalling. $2000 for a laptop it should be at
the least repairable.

~~~
londons_explore
Specifically, they occur only at 100 percent humidity causing condensation.

That could happen if you take the laptop from a cold air conditioned room to
outside. The warm wet outside air touches the cold laptop and condenses.

This type of condensation is pretty bad for electrical devices too though.

Ideally the device would be gas and liquid sealed, and this wouldn't be an
issue.

------
djsumdog
I'm just going to quote Linus (Tech Tips) from his experience just trying to
purchase parts for an iMac Pro:

> "…So if an authorized service provider fails to return a defective part
> during the exchange for any reason, they get dinged for the price of the
> replacement part in what is a clear effort to prevent any spare parts from
> making their way out into the wild. … This is far from the only punitive
> measure that Apple appears to be willing to inflict upon its ‘partners’.
> From talking to them, we were struck by the culture of fear that Apple
> cultivates among its authorized service providers. They explicitly prevent
> them from ordering replacement parts for the sake of having them on hand. So
> what that means is that they require a work order to be placed before the
> part will even be shipped, which creates massive delays of potentially
> weeks, for something as simple as a freaking RAM swap. Which makes the AASP
> look bad in comparison to Apple’s own service centers. But that’s Apple’s
> policy. To make matters worse, if an AASP attempts to order a part that they
> don’t yet have the certification for, Apple will send them a fine instead of
> the parts they ordered. And this is all for the privilege of having access
> to Apple’s supply chain. Oh and the best part is anyone caught talking about
> any of this to anybody outside of Apple; for them this is grounds for severe
> retaliation: Revocation of AASP status or certifications, fines or even
> potential legal actions … By comparison, Samsung has a web portal that you
> can log into and order any replacement phone parts that you could want…"

Source:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwEInwvFbwk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwEInwvFbwk)

(I had original transcribed it here:
[https://penguindreams.org/blog/i-paid-180-for-headphones-
tha...](https://penguindreams.org/blog/i-paid-180-for-headphones-that-only-
lasted-two-years/))

~~~
hb3b
I've worked at an AASP and managed Apple Self Service programs at two
companies so I have a bit more information to what you posted.

Apple is _very_ strict when it comes to service repairs because the supply
chain and processes for receiving parts is essentially the same between AASP
repairs and those done at stores and at depot centers. Nowadays, AASP repairs
represent a tiny fraction of all repairs and Apple grandfathering old AASPs
and allowing companies to participate in Self Service repairs is more of a
courtesy than anything else.

\- AASPs can order spare parts under an "exchange" option or as "new". New
parts are typically ordered when a customer has lost an item (keycap, charger,
apple remote). Everything else usually gets processed as an exchange repair.
Apple learns a lot from the defective parts it receives during a repair. They
also don't want defective/broken parts floating around eBay so it provides
AASPs a monetary incentive to send back KBBs. \- AASPs can keep parts on-hand.
These parts can be purchased on a credit line and the AASP will receive a
refund on the cost of these parts after the repair is done and the KBB (known
bad board/part) is sent to Apple. Plus they will receive compensation if the
product is under warranty in the amount of 75-100 bucks for doing the repair
right. \- I would agree that not everything in GSX should be kept highly
confidential. Apple's takeapart guides are really awesome and I wish they were
published freely. Within GSX is the coveted VIG (visual inspection guides)
which determine which classes of repairs on an iPhone or iPad are covered
under warranty. For example, a scratched camera lens on an iPhone 4S warranted
a whole unit replacement back then even though no formal repair extension
program was announced to customers. Maybe this was a serious problem or maybe
Apple was giving customers a courtesy repair on this type of issue. But surely
publishing this document would cause some people with 4Ss to intentionally
scratch their camera lens to get a free replacement device. \- And of course,
if you aren't certified on a product line Apple doesn't want you opening
repairs or ordering parts for that line. In my experience, you can't even open
repairs on certain products unless you've passed an online qualification exam
(for $100). I think this is pretty reasonable. I've never received parts only
to be later charged for not being certified on the defective product.

------
dalanmiller
Apple quoted me nearly $2000 at their Sydney store to fix my 2014 MBP for some
water damage when I derped a cup of tea onto the keyboard.

Having discovered Louis Rossman via Reddit, I shipped my laptop to his store
in NYC and was able to get my laptop repaired for less than a quarter of that
price. Happy to answer any questions about my experience.

I'm a convert for the repair movement for life.

~~~
cam_l
I spilt a glass of water on an old Lenovo laptop I had (while it was running),
the keyboard had a tray under it which drained outside of the laptop. [0] But
if i _had_ damaged it, every single part was removable, orderable and
replaceable.

[0] [http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/avoiding-water-on-the-
brain](http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/avoiding-water-on-the-brain)

~~~
stevewillows
Ever since I saw this in person I've wondered why other manufacturers haven't
copied it. Easily one of the best ideas on the market.

With regards to the article, what could be worse than Mountain Dew? Milk?

~~~
beloch
Spill trays, albeit without the gutter, used to be a common feature, but they
were a casualty of the thinness wars. A super-thin spill try can't hold much
liquid, so what's the point? I like this solution from Lenovo.

Being able to pull a laptop's battery as soon as liquid was spilled on it was
another great feature for survivability. Water doesn't directly damage
electronics in and of itself. The damage is usually done by the short-circuits
liquids facilitate. Disconnecting the battery before the liquid spreads
through the device can prevent a lot of damage. I suppose the thinness wars
probably killed this feature too.

------
whitexn--g28h
I feel like Apple has apolicy that anything with red water indicators needs to
be replaced. Since they charge a fixed price for labor and guarantee the
repair they are protecting themselves from giving a faulty device to the
customer. A third-party technician can bend back the pin, and ignore anything
else because they are allowed to partially repair the device to a lesser
standard.

The same thing goes with cars, the dealership will only replace OEM parts and
usually won’t offer to repair something. A local mechanic has more freedom to
give you the option of repair the part for less money even if the part is now
less reliable.

~~~
soneil
That does appear to be where some of their more outlandish pricing comes from.
They'll either do a repair that brings the machine up to snuff (bar normal
wear), or they won't.

So that bent pin is now a substandard, weakened part. If that pin's in a
socket, the socket oughta be replaced. But Apple don't expect local techs to
be soldering things, so the socket doesn't get replaced, the whole subassembly
does. Next thing you know, you're getting a whole motherboard for that bent
pin. And they were stupidly expensive even before they started soldering ram
(& storage?) to them.

If that wasn't expensive enough, the liquid indicators play hell with this,
for exactly the same reason. If they actually believe there's liquid damage,
the list of subassemblies that need to be replaced to bring the machine up to
par, gets very spendy very quickly.

I don't know if there's really an easy way to change this. The more you try to
standardise the operation, the less flexible it gets. Overkill is great when
it's on Apple's dime, and shocking when it isn't.

~~~
xbkingx
So you're saying that a Macbook Pro isn't up to snuff if they replace a single
broken keyboard key. They need to replace the battery, too. I mean, the user
might have pressed on the key slightly harder than normal to determine it was
broken, which would flex the case slightly and put a non-stardard pressure on
the battery, weakening the casing.

Stop justifying their terrible policies. Their decisions are purely economic
and magical thinking about technology lets them get away with it. A bent data
pin on a connector doesn't lead to a catastrophic cascade of system-wide
failures. If it does, then Apple shouldn't be making computers. I guarantee
that at some point in the production line those connectors were heaped in a
bucket. Maybe a standard bucket, but a bucket nonetheless.

Anecdote time. I got curious about some old PC parts I had in the basement and
decided to throw them together. Motherboard, 1st gen Core 2 Duo (with heatsink
and original thermal paste), Nvidia 6800GT, etc - pieces from 10+ years ago
that I rode hard sat unprotected in a milk crate for over a decade and were
moved across the country 3 times. I've been using them as a NAS for the last 6
months (powered 24/7) with no problems. It isn't even in a case. I use a
scissors to short the power leads directly on the motherboard to boot it. And
that's far from the first time I've janked a computer together.

Perhaps a better example, I volunteer regularly at a computer recycling place
and regularly see 5+ year old laptops that were given to people that must have
used them for fighting off bears and stirring soup. We clean em up, test em,
and put them up for resale. Sure there are occasionally broken ones, but
they're surprisingly rare. No one there has ever seen a computer even remotely
resembling the condition of the Macbook brought in by the lady in Louis's
follow up video.

If you really believe that a tiny dent in a corner of the chassis leads to
irreparable, functional damage to an Apple computer, why on Earth would you
continue to buy them? And if you don't believe that, why do you allow them to
cloud your logic to the point where it's even defensible?

And while I'm ranting, you don't need moisture indicator stickers. Is there
corrosion? Is there evidence of arcing/shorts? Are there water stains or bits
of debris? That's all you need. Instead, companies put bright stickers that
change colors so that it looks impressive and irrefutable to customers and so
they don't have to train their technicians to identify water damage.

It isn't just Apple, but companies love to follow Apple's lead in all the
wrong ways, so if people don't start pushing back on these anti-consumer
moves, we'll all end up trying to convince ourselves that notches on phones
aren't the dumbest design choice of the last century. Anyways, sorry for
ranting. The whole situation just bothers me.

------
jen729w
How does Apple win this game?

Louis Rossman is famous because he’s bloody good. Not many people are as good
as he is.

How many Rossman’s would Apple need to employ? Where do they come from? Does
Rossman want to work at Apple Doncaster, the store in the mall 20kms out of
central Melbourne here in Australia? Didn’t think so.

If you’ve been in a store recently you know what it’s like. It’s _madness_ in
there. They must see a hundred people an hour, from people like us who know
exactly what we want, to the elderly lady opposite me last time who was being
taught, patiently, that it’s okay now to charge her phone overnight.

I’ve worked in support, I’ve done my time there, and the volume of support
they must field boggles the mind. It’s very easy to criticise, especially a
case like this, but think about it. How would _you_ run it? You gonna employ
10,000 Rossmans and have them all out the back inspecting pins? It’s just not
realistic.

As others have said here, the fact that you can walk in to a store* and have
your thing fixed, often while you wait, often for free, is amazing. _I_ think
it’s amazing. It’s one of the many reasons I continue to buy Apple kit,
despite cases like this one. Because what’s my better option? I don’t believe
that I have one, because I don’t live within walking distance of Louis
Rossman.

(*After making an appointment 3 days before.)

~~~
marklyon
Rossman does depot-level repairs. They don't need 10,000 depots. They need a
few. They could potentially have someone like him video or phone-linked to
stores to answer tough questions (and very well may). They then need good
policies and training for the frontline staff to sort out when something can
be sent for repair and when it can't. It would also help if they revived SOS-
APPL and started making parts easily available.

I suspect it wouldn't take much money at all for Apple to buy Rossman, drop
him in a big NYC depot with a Jurassic Park-style viewing window for fanbois
to watch things get fixed while he livestreams the repairs, and quickly turn
this into a PR win. They could replicate that in several other large cities
easily. Will they? Probably not.

~~~
jen729w
Must you ruin it with the “fanbois“ comment?

Are all the people currently watching him repair PCs on YouTube fanbois?

~~~
marklyon
Sure. I'm a huge fan of "competent professionals doing professional things"
youtube. My suggestions are a strange hodgepodge of HVAC repairs,
electricians, welders, carpenters and other folks sharing their day-to-day
job.

------
pmihairo
The first thing about this video is that the laptop malfunction was at lest
shady to me. There is no way in which that pin would bend itself, unless
another repair was previously made or it was actually bent on purpose.

The second thing - I think it might even be 'product placement', because the
shop image and address are clearly explained in the video.

In my opinion there's nothing wrong here: Apple's employee saw that there is
water damage, he concluded that he needed to replace that part. This is just
process, that they need to follow. We can't force Apple to change their
processes and strategies, especially if this means less profit. It is after
all a business, that is built to make money.

~~~
djsumdog
Except that there was no actual water damage. I've bought some of that 3M
material for some research experiments and it really shouldn't be used the way
it is in electronics. It can turn red in humid environments. They're best used
with things that are IPS rated like Pelican boxes, to assure rain isn't
getting into them in an outdoor environment.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
But if it can be tripped from humidity how can it be effective in pelican
boxes...

------
dssu
The problem is not that Apple overcharges for repairs or misdiagnose issues.
It's that they are trying to reduce the traditionally available alternative
options a customer can take instead.

------
thewizardofaus
My MacBook Pro late 2011 model suffered from the GPU flaw less than a week
after Apple's "free repair" window ended. This repair window only existed
because apple failed to recognise it and a class action lawsuit resulted.

Even after a repair it's never truly fault free, due to refurbed motherboards
being used.

That was the end of my relationship with apple.

~~~
murukesh_s
All manufacturers are worser than Apple. I was trying to shop for an
laptop/ultra book(who buys bulky products anymore) and was surprised at lack
of competitive products to Apple's. Perhaps a decade back there were quality,
high-end products from IBM and Sony which could rival Apple. Now you are stuck
with low quality products with much lesser reliability than MacBook pros at a
higher price point even for the same spec. Apple is sort of enjoying it. May
be surface would make a difference.

~~~
evanslify
Beside some softwares only exists on macOS, Dell and Lenovo (if not concerned
about its Chinese background) makes good ultrabooks which is on-par with
Macbook Pro these days.

Plus, repairability & without keyboard which would break on particle ingress.

~~~
arcticbull
In Apple's defense, the newest keyboards no longer suffer from the particle
ingress issue, and they're genuinely more pleasant to type on.

------
ummonk
This doesn't seem all that scammy to me. The genius bar person was forthright
that they needed to replace the components because they have a full repair
only policy and the water damage indicators were red. He was forthright that
this wasn't necessarily the cause of the display issue. He also did hint at
other repair shops in the end by saying that there were no other options "in
terms of fixing it in the store".

~~~
kbenson
The full repair only policy is not really a problem. Apple wants to make sure
they give you back a functioning device, so people aren't walking around
saying they got their Apple repaired and it's still broken (or breaks quickly
afterwards).

The full repair only policy while actively trying to prevent third party
repair services _is_ a problem, as then you are preventing people from being
able to repair only _actual problems_ just because Apple wants to control its
image, and you run into situations like this. Who cares if water indicators
are tripped? There should be an options for someone to repair what's _needed_
, and deal with further problems later _if_ they crop up. Apple doesn't want
to allow this.

> He also did hint at other repair shops in the end by saying that there were
> no other options "in terms of fixing it in the store".

That's not hinting at other options, that's just not outright lying when asked
a direct question, which ends up revealing another option. That's a low bar to
hit (and thankfully he did).

------
joeevans1000
Well, honestly, I've owned Apples for decades, and I was truly a fan, but
between the touch bar madness and their lame repair policies, it's truly the
EOL for me with it all. Thank goodness the Linux and Lenovo game has gotten so
on point.

~~~
briandear
What “Touch Bar madness?” They put a Touch Bar. So what? Some of us actually
love it. Some of us even use Vim and love it. Calling it “madness” is a bit
hyperbolic. You certainly don’t have to like it, but people are acting like
they removed the space bar.

One benefit of their “lame” repair policy is that it protects resell values
because you can generally be assured some back-alley repair shop didn’t use an
inferior part or fix something with shoddy workmarkship. With three year
AppleCare and good resell values, Macs are great values. Ever tried to sell a
5 year old Dell? Pretty much paperweights after a few years in terms of resell
value.

~~~
hosay123
Ebay doesn't corroborate the statement regarding Dell resale value:
[https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=See-
All-C...](https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=See-All-
Categories&LH_ItemCondition=2000%7C2500%7C3000&_nkw=dell%20xps%2015&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684)

------
stunt
I had same experience with an iPhone. While Apple Store said it is a board
failure and the only solution is replacing it with a refurbished or a new
phone. I went to a repair shop. and it turns out that it is only a display
problem and it was just 29$ to fix it.

------
threeseed
It says in the video that the water indicators turned red. Under those
circumstances it's customary for Apple Genius Bar to insist on full part
replacements even if it's something simple like bending a pin.

More of a grey area than the clickbait title.

~~~
subway
The water indicators are more like humidity indicators. In a lot of climates
they're going to be red within a few months of normal use.

~~~
blihp
Which all by itself seems like a class action just waiting to happen (i.e. the
water indicator itself is defective resulting in hundreds of dollars or more
in unnecessary repairs in many cases due to Apple repair policies)

------
dang
Also
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18206394](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18206394)

------
kbenson
Man, Rossman's on a media blitz.

------
IBM
Making sensationalist Apple videos on YouTube might just be the best racket.

~~~
foolrush
It's the CBC. Do your homework.

~~~
IBM
I'm aware.

------
jhabdas
Please use [YouTube] not video in titles where the content is not hosted
independently thanks.

~~~
briandear
Why? What does “independently” mean? How is that relevant? Furthermore, the
link in the title says “youtube.com” already.

