
Why are successful professionals still working 70 hours a week? - skartik
https://hbr.org/2018/02/if-youre-so-successful-why-are-you-still-working-70-hours-a-week
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montrose
Because I like to work.

People who don't like to work often misunderstand this when looking at the
stories of successful people. They think successful people force themselves to
work hard in order to be successful. In fact successful people often like
their work so much that there's nothing else they'd rather do. I doubt for
example that there's anything Jeff Bezos would rather do than run Amazon. I
bet it seems to him the way a gigantic Lego creation seems to a 7 year old.

~~~
ProxCoques
Exactly. My father told me a story of when he was stuck in traffic with
somebody who was then about the 10th richest person in the world. To make
conversation, my father asked him what his plans for the coming year were. The
guy listed all sorts of business goals. My father asked if he had anything
personally that he was planning. The guy basically replied that those _were_
his personal plans. He made no distinction between work and play.

~~~
ulfw
There is a HUMONGOUS difference between owner of a business and employed by a
business.

Makes sense for the "10th richest person in the world" to work long hours.
It's his call. He is working basically for himself.

Totally different when you're making say 50K and the "10th richest person in
the world" wants YOU to work all day every day too.

~~~
jondubois
This hits the nail on the head. Most of the value that you're creating is
captured by someone else. So why should you be expected to spend all your life
to benefit someone else's interests?

It's quite strange that today slavery is a completely taboo subject
(rightfully so) and yet workplace slavery is not only tolerated but
encouraged. It's essentailly the same; someone else uses their coercive power
over you to essentially steal a big chunk of your life. The worst part is that
it's a first-in best-dressed, roll-of-the-dice kind of game.

~~~
zaptheimpaler
Speaking as an outsider to Western/American culture, this is one of the worst
parts of America. There are millions of people peddling the bullshit dream of
"success" (whatever that means) and the implied message of "work harder" in
every corner of the media and workplace. Which is great if you reap 100% of
the rewards, but for most its only a way to make them compliant worker-bees
competing with each other for scraps that the higher-ups dose out at their
leisure.

~~~
closeparen
Unless we’re in some kind of rent-seeking or monopolistic situation, you never
get 100% of the rewards. Businesses increase their revenues by providing more
value to clients.

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DanielBMarkham
You can have meaning or you can have happiness. You cannot have both -- at
least not all of the time. This conflict can be seen clearly in a movie like
"Office Space", where both the male and female leads are working for happiness
(and survival) whereas the work environment expects them to be working for
meaning. (How many pieces of flair are you wearing?)

The trick to this discussion is that people on one side of the discussion
frankly don't understand folks on the other side. The things they say and do
don't make any sense. If you're a meaning person, you read the title of this
essay -- "If You’re So Successful, Why Are You Still Working 70 Hours a Week?"
and think if you're successful, why _wouldn 't_ you be working 70 hours a
week? You're doing what you love, making a difference in the world! It's only
those that are unsuccessful, those who work for meaning but aren't very
effective, that would spend a lot of time doing nothing.

For both camps, it seems the world is full of people from the other camp,
basically ruining things for the rest of us. It would be great if we could
convey this critical piece of information to people early on in life. So much
time and energy is spent in conflicts with other folks where it's not needed.

~~~
Waterluvian
I used to work 60 hours a week because I absolutely loved what I did. It gave
me meaning. Then I had a son and it fell to 40... Then 30... Then I quit. Now
I'm home with him and absolutely love what I'm doing. I still feel successful
nurturing a little human. It gives me more meaning than my job ever did.
Financially I need to work again, but I doubt it will ever be the nexus of my
day.

~~~
aceon48
Are you male or female?

~~~
Waterluvian
Typically I'd question why it matters but I appreciate that this is a very
gender role specific topic. I'm male.

~~~
gem1123
Were you a web developer?

I found my web dev colleagues were much more aware of the gender imbalances in
the world and the expectation that I (female) would be the nurturer in my
family.

~~~
Waterluvian
I'm a geographer (The STEM program that was 51% female at my university). I'd
like to think I have nurtured a balanced progressive view of the world, but we
all have our biases.

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fastbeef
For the most of my career, I was certain that there was something wrong with
me. After the first few months at a new job, a sense of meaninglessness grew
in me. Is this it? Am I really babysitting this ASP.Net app from here on out?
I tried to find meaning in my work but always came up short. Cue a miserable
year followed by a job hunt. Rinse and repeat every 2-4 years.

After 12 years of this, it suddendly struck me - I don’t like working. I don’t
hate it, not at all - I enjoy coding and fixing bugs. However I fail to see
any deeper meaning in the work I do. So last month, I quit, started my own
consultancy and sell my skills and time to the highest bidder, max 6 hours per
day. Couldn’t be happier! I really feel more like a plumber or electrician
than a coder and for the first time in my career I don’t feel anxious about
doing something meaningful, because I’ve redefined what “meaning” is.

~~~
indemnity
Thanks. As someone who struggles mightily with the same, I’ve always thought
that path is one I should follow, but I’m not great at networking / hustling
for the next contract, which you kind of have to do, right?

~~~
fastbeef
The local market here in Sweden is super-hot so I can pick and choose.
Usually, I go through a broker who takes 10% of everything I invoice but does
all the selling for me.

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rayiner
The article profiles people in a bunch of professional firms, but ignores the
changing market for those professionals. An ABA study showed that in 1965, a
typical billable hour target for a lawyer was 1200-1600. Today, 2000 hours is
a typical target. That can’t be explained by culture. Law has always drawn
“insecure overachievers.” In reality, it’s due to the changing marketplace.
Decades ago, it would be highly unusual for Philadelphia company to retain a
DC firm for a matter. Today, it’s routine—your competition is nationwide.
Golfing with local business people doesn’t cut it for business development
anymore. And like other industries, the work has shifted to larger players in
big markets (NYC/Chicago/SF/DC).

External competition also breeds internal competition. I used to work at a
firm in New York. There was no competition in the partnership, by design:
everyone was paid in a lock step fashion strictly by seniority. Business
development meant checking your messages when you got back from lunch.
Partnership was for life and partners never left. That was typical 30-40 years
ago. Today it’s very much the exception, a model retained by a handful of
firms that have major institutional relationships. The typical model today is
“eat what you kill.” Partners are compensated based on how much business they
bring in, and regularly hop from firm to firm depending on who is offering the
best pay package.

Of course all this isn’t necessarily bad. Increased competition means more
work, more hours, more availability. But where there is a lack of competition,
that’s often a sign of people being kept down. Back in 1965, many firms didn’t
hire Jews, Asians, African Americans, women, etc. Business was given out over
drinks instead of having competing firms pitch for it in a transparent way.
All of those things increase competition and decrease the value of “good old
boy” networks.

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tonyedgecombe
I wonder if organisations are getting the benefits they perceive, I suppose if
you bill by the hour you are but I know from personal experience nothing kills
my creativity like overwork.

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saas_co_de
It is odd to ask this question without any consideration of culture.

Perhaps our culture defines "success" in a way that can only be achieved by
working 70 hours a week.

Also, where is the law that says devoting time to idle leisure is superior to
working?

~~~
sjg007
Are these 70 hours productive? I need downtime to think. So if you include
thinking as part of that 70 hours then fine.

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cannonedhamster
I'm technically a successful professional, but I'd certainly love to work less
than 70 hours weeks. I don't have a choice, we're understaffed. It's been
shown in black and white to management who is betting a sale will bring those
people in. The scam comes into play when we realize we're salary. I used to
look at salary as something to achieve, flexible work schedule where I could
put in the work and go home when I was done. Now the work is never done. I
enjoy what I'm doing, and I'm good at it, but the drive to push everyone in
the tech industry into burnout is a cancer that's carving the industry out.

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dadawoowoo
Sometimes it helps if you think back to one year before you started with your
current work, what things were important to you then.

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mmilano
New success quickly becomes the new baseline and a personality that chases
success will continue to pursue greater success.

------
aplummer
Is it bad to just like work?

I couldn't think of anything I could do for the number of hours that I work
that wouldn't send me insane. Travelling, hanging out with friends, partying,
sports, random interests - not that I don't like them a bit, but I would lose
it after just a few weeks.

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skartik
At the heart of it all is the amount of insecurity we have about our work,
it's quality and relevance.

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ggm
My parents probably had this. "life is short" dominated anyone who lived
through the great depression, and WWII and I think it influenced their sense
that purposeful activity was better than other choices, what was work and what
was pleasure blended, because you had a sense it was better to make things
happen, than let entropy rule.

I had this as an engaging drive until 15-20 years ago when I somehow lost my
work ethic, in a dark corner and I've looked for it fitfully since, but if I
am honest, not very hard. I appreciate that its better to build, and leave
something behind, but I am less driven to do this 24/7.

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Bombthecat
And then on your death bed :damn! I could have put in 80 hours a week!

Regrets, regrets... Regrets.

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nso95
What is success, really?

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zrb05292
I have to work almost all the time. My day typically begins at 3am and ends
around 7pm. The reason for this is that my own projects and goals are often
contingent on the successful completion of projects by other teams, and
organizationally we tend to hire C workers at best. So I spend a lot of time
pushing other people and other teams. It doesn’t make me popular but it does
make me effective.

~~~
sgt101
Where will this lead? How would you react if you were laid off ?

~~~
shadowtree
You’re replying to the CEO of Apple.

~~~
marcosdumay
That's a very bad thing for a CEO to ever say. He is the one dictating that
his organization hires C workers at best.

But, anyway, I'm really curious about know how he would answer that question.

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grecy
It's great to see an article about this. I think it's clear that as automation
replaces a lot of jobs we're all going to work less (finally) and find
meaning, purpose and happiness in other ways.

Certainly some people really love their work, and that's fantastic. Other
people would rather work less, and that's great too.

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mbrodersen
The number of hours people work is not important. What is important is whether
they freely _choose_ to work that amount of hours or not. There are poor
people who work a lot more than 70 hours a week (2 to 3 different jobs). But
that is not something they _choose_ to do.

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mbrodersen
Also, measuring success in money earned is misguided. Success is personal.
Success is achieving what gives meaning/fulfilment to _you_ independently of
what gives meaning/fulfilment to others.

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anotheryou
Maybe those valuing a lifestyle with less work opt-out earlier and work part-
time in a just mildly successful career

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danjoc
Working 70 hrs a week is a signal to me that one is not competent. Computers
work for me, not the other way around. As for the people with "bullshit jobs"
I assume they do it because of imposter syndrome. The only other category I
can think of is doctors, doing it because there's literally no one else who
can save a life. That's a management/credentialism issue.

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lulmerchant
Maybe that's how they became successful. It's a well established fact that
industriousness is one of the strongest predictors of success in people.

