

Internet Explorer: Global Variables, and Stack Overflows - boucher
http://cappuccino.org/discuss/2010/03/01/internet-explorer-global-variables-and-stack-overflows

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jf
You don't need to be my neighbor to get help from Microsoft on issues like
this.

If you're a startup and you're having technical issues with Microsoft
software, please reach out to me. I'm here to help :D

~~~
zaatar
I agree, and it's not just Joel; there's tons of Microsofties that I know (me
included) that are pretty active on news.yc, even if only lurking without real
accounts/profiles, but on read-only mode.

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jeff18
As an aside, I submitted this post a little bit earlier and did not get a
single upvote on mine. I think that is kind of an interesting case study on
the snowball effect, where in two parallel worlds the exact same article /
title could get 1 vote or 50+ votes depending on subtle variables, such as the
time of submission or if one other person notices it at the right time.

~~~
boucher
It's weird that it didn't catch that it was the same post, like it usually
does. I didn't see yours when I looked either. Sorry.

~~~
tlrobinson
Looks like yours didn't have a trailing slash.

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aristus
Ugh! I hit a similar problem in Chrome beta, where I could only recurse 20
levels deep when calling functions across frames ( eg top.window.foo() )
before it blew up.

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volomike
Why is this trending? Bugs in IE. Film at 11. Old news.

~~~
boucher
Apparently, enough people are interested in this particular bug to vote it up.
It was news to me at least. Hopefully next time I'll find my own article in
Google and remember, since it wasn't a very Google friendly problem before.

~~~
volomike
Okay. I apologize for my outburst. I'm just a pretty disgruntled IE user (but
only for testing sites) and wish Microsoft would just switch the whole thing
over to webkit and be done with it.

~~~
zaatar
Hopefully, IE9 won't disappoint - trust me, we're working really hard on it :)
If you wish to share with me what problems exactly you're facing with IE, and
I'm happy to hear you out. My profile page has my contact info.

~~~
volomike
Because of the work I do in web development, I am an Ubuntu Linux user. I only
use IE for testing sites so that I see what they look like in that browser.
IE8 was a big step forward, but compatibility mode really put a kink in things
such that on everything I'm having to add this tag:

<meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=7" />

Even on new projects.

Also, the delay on supporting CSS3 stuff like border-radius and text and box
shadow has been disappointing. As of the release of Opera 10.50 today, even
Opera has finally caught up to support the most popular CSS3 stuff. Now only
IE8 drags its feet.

I wish Microsoft would release point releases sooner, rather than hold up and
release major releases. This makes it easier to accommodate the subtle changes
in the browser as things go.

One of the great things about the open source browsers is that the bug teams
on those browsers listen for the most part, and get bug and security fixes out
there sooner, while Microsoft simply drags their feet.

I don't like the way the buttons are arranged in the IE browser. With Firefox
I can move things around to how I like things and can even change the look of
those buttons.

I really, really like Firebug and use it in my work. IE needs something like
that. Especially the ability to move my mouse around, click something, and
immediately know what it's called, see the CSS, and can even try changes on
the CSS. This was how I was able to retheme ProjectPier (ProjectPier.org) with
a custom theme, while it is not easy to do in IE.

Often in web development, I need to clear web history, caching, cookies, etc.
Ever try and do that on IE8? You wait forever over something that should be
performed instantly like other browsers.

The Advanced tab is goofy. It has a window I cannot stretch and so I have to
use the horizontal scroller. It has so many items in there, and everyone
usually needs to get into that if they're a developer, that you can't help but
wonder why it wasn't implemented in a series of tabs.

Many of the other IE8 problems are discussed here:

<http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE8>

And specifically:

<http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html>

Last, I don't think Microsoft is pushing hard enough to get people off of IE6.
I keep bumping into clients who still run it and I bruise my head on the
table.

~~~
jf
Thanks for taking the time to share this with us volomike. It might seem like
your complaint is going into a black hole, but it's not.

~~~
volomike
Well, I can say that IE8 was a huge step forward, but if they listen to what I
have said in my last post (that you responded to here), then that pretty much
would solve a lot of problems that most developers have with it. I'm willing
to give them another chance. However, here's the thing for me:

\- Firefox comes with great addons, so even though it's slower than Chrome,
it's still got me. Plus, Firefox renders form elements just slightly better
for me in my opinion than Chrome does.

\- I like Chrome a lot, however, for W3C and CSS3 compliance, for stability,
and for raw speed. I would switch to it as my primary browser because of those
reasons if it weren't for the fact that I just stated here about form element
rendering and that it needs a few more critical addons. For instance, I use
FireFTP like crazy, as well as adblock, Flashblock, and FireBug. I hear that
much of this is coming, so Chrome may be my primary browser later on.

So, even if IE9 or IE10 turns out to be a pure delight as far as W3C and CSS3
compliance, it still has speed issues to overcome versus Chrome, infrequent
release issues, cross-platform issues (Mac, Linux, Windows), etc.

But here's another thing, Microsoft hasn't been very nice to the F/OSS
community. They have thrown a lot of mud up about patent infringement and
junk, and I don't like software patents at all. They have been exposed in the
Halloween docs and on Groklaw. So, the odds of me, an Ubuntu Linux user using
a future IE release made for Linux -- well, that would be slim to none.

~~~
jf
Thanks for mentioning your issues with Microsoft regarding patent
infringement, the Halloween documents, etc. I occasionally have conversations
with co-workers about why the F/OSS community has so much animosity towards
Microsoft and it really helps when I can give examples other than personal
anecdote.

To be honest, the issue here for me is not that you are a GNU/Linux user. The
issue is that you are likely represented by this pie chart:
[http://makariolewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/web-
desig...](http://makariolewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/web-design-pie-
chart.png) \- we need to make the yellow, purple, and cyan slices much
smaller. Right?

