
Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American - nitefly
http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2011/01/notes-of-a-native-tiger-son-part-1/69748/
======
blahedo
This observation hit me like a two-by-four:

 _"The Immigration Act of 1965... created preference categories for science,
math and engineering-trained immigrants to come over. [Asian countries] were
producing a surplus of college-educated adults but lacked a sufficiently
developed domestic economy to adequately absorb them. The 1965 Immigration
Act, in trying to bolster America's own domestic needs, inadvertently helped
absorb that surplus [and] influenced the American perception that Asians were
somehow naturally gifted in math and science because there was a
disproportionate number of immigrants coming from Asia with those skills."_

~~~
jimmybot
Contrast that with for 60 years before that, we had this:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act>

Later extended to cover all Asian immigrants.

There was certainly demand to emigrate to the US, but it was forbidden. This
act alone I think goes a long, long way to explaining why Asian Americans are
a fairly recent phenomenon and "weird" to American culture.

~~~
bhoung
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy>

Just to let you know, you're not alone there as a country.

------
jamesjyu
This piece definitely hit home for me, a 2nd generation Asian American.

As a kid in the 90s, I remember talking to an older friend about future career
advice. I mentioned acting or dancing as possible paths for Asian Americans.
He scoffed, telling me that the only place for Asians in American pop culture
was in martial art films. Out of all the memories, that particular
conversation stuck with me for years.

My father's immigration to the states was squarely in line with the
Immigration Act of 1965. He was at the top of his class (and really, the
country) in Taiwan, and came to study for his PhD at Yale. I grew up in a
household not too far off from Chua's advice. There are pros and cons to this
way of parenting (I won't go into all of those). What I know for sure is that
emulating it to a T is bad.

The most dangerous aspect of the Chua-way of parenting isn't the borderline
academic abuse: it's the blindness to opportunities. Sharply focusing on math
and science, and then aiming to get into an "old" profession like being a
doctor or lawyer, prevents the child from ever exploring or even considering
other possibilities.

Growing up, I really didn't consider other career opportunities besides
getting a PhD like my dad and pursuing an electrical engineering career. I
have since deviated from that path, but it took me a long time and a halfway
pursued PhD. Now I'm happily doing web development and design for my job, a
longtime hobby of mine ever since childhood.

I have always wondered what would have happened if my parents had let me
explore outside of the usual math and science career paths. Maybe I would have
jumped into web development earlier and more seriously. Or, maybe I would have
been a dancer or chef. The possibilities I could have explored in college, but
didn't because of guilt, still keeps me up at night.

In the end, I did finally find my passion and am pursuing it full time. But, I
know a lot of my Asian peers who are now stuck in a career choice that was
thrust upon them by their parents. And now they can't, or don't have enough
motivation to get out.

I have no idea what tactic I will use to parent my own children someday. But I
know for sure that I will let my child explore career choices outside of my
own, and to let them mold their own career path.

~~~
dkarl
_Sharply focusing on math and science, and then aiming to get into an "old"
profession like being a doctor or lawyer, prevents the child from ever
exploring or even considering other possibilities._

That's exactly the point. They fear that their children will pursue one of
those other possibilities the way you or I would fear our children becoming
drug addicts. I don't think it's restricted to East Asians; it seems
consistent among recent immigrants. I mentioned to a friend from Iran that I
had high LSAT scores and could have gone to law school -- I didn't even say a
_good_ law school -- and she was astonished. To her, the higher income and
prestige of being a lawyer was decisive; it was bizarre that I chose a lower-
paid path that resulted in me existing beneath lawyers in the social pecking
order. How could I choose to make less money, live in a smaller house in a
less posh neighborhood, drive a cheaper car, and go on less lavish vacations?

High-paid professions with stable demand and high, meritocratic barriers to
entry are ideal vehicles for recent immigrants, whether they want to ensure
their class (if they come from an upper class in a society where falling out
of the upper class is catastrophic) or their financial security (if they come
from a country where economic existence is precarious and subject to great
disruptions.)

Upper-middle-class Americans are a little weird in that we are just as
obsessed with class as anyone else, yet we often subordinate class to
lifestyle factors when choosing a career. In fact, unlike upper-class, lower-
class, or most other middle-class Americans, we are stuck in a kind of
catch-22 where it is considered gauche to show concern for maintaining or
improving our class status. We also sacrifice security, but I don't think it
is conscious: we just can't viscerally comprehend economic insecurity. To my
friend, I shrugged and said, "I wouldn't have enjoyed being a lawyer. I might
as well choose a career I enjoy. After all, no one is starving." I never had
any artistic or musical interests, so my blasé attitude toward class was never
tested by the prospect of a sub-middle-class career, but I never questioned it
when it came to opportunities to move _up_. Doctor, lawyer, meh, doesn't sound
fun. That attitude horrifies many immigrant parents.

------
noname123
I've thought a lot about this subject. I have come to conclusion that asian
parents hating comes from internalized self-hatred of being yellow and yet at
the same, being unable to express one's Asian values in a Western society.

Almost everything against the Asian parents are against how their values are
different from typical "American" parents: strict vs. lenient, off-putting vs.
dotting. "I have to sit at home doing SAT practice sets and violin lessons
while other kids are going to Chemical Romance concerts." A lot of anger comes
from if my parents didn't prevent me from doing X (electric guitar) or forced
me to do Y (volin), I could have been Z (football quarterback/rockstar/kissing
the prom queen). These reasons may be true, but it's irresponsible to put all
your shortcomings on your parents and it's dangerous because I know people who
are in their late 20's, 30's long after they have moved out their parents
house still playing the blame game.

On the other hand, American culture is so different than Asian culture and no
matter how Americanized you get, you still have some Asian influences. For
instance, when I'm out with my Asian friends, we interact like we are
kindergarten teachers, always very attentive to others' egos and emotions
whereas with my American friends, we interact like we are in prison, joking
and bustin' each other balls and never showing vulnerabilities. Sometimes I
get frustrated at the "games" you have to play chasing American chicks or
"bromance," where you have to put a "confidence" facade instead of expressing
yourself as is.

But I have come to accept Asian parents for what they are. I'm grateful for
what mine has taught me and not grateful for their old ingrained concepts that
runs counterproductive to living in a Western society. But one thing is
constant always however, you can't teach old dogs new tricks. I could bang my
head against the wall to try to explain to my parents American values and they
won't understand (because maybe I myself and really anyone else don't even
comprehend what American values are). But it's more practical and beneficial
for me to accept responsibility for my own issues and work on them myself.

~~~
potatolicious
I feel like I have to drop my own anecdote here to counter yours - I didn't
have nearly the same experience growing up.

> _"For instance, when I'm out with my Asian friends, we interact like we are
> kindergarten teachers, always very attentive to others' egos and emotions"_

Whereabouts did/do you live? My Asian friends around here act no differently
than any other human being I regularly interact with. I really don't get the
"heightened emotional sensitivity" part. Similarly, nearly all of my western
friends aren't the bromancing invulnerable types. Methinks this is less about
race and more about hanging around with the wrong crowd.

As a further anecdote, as a westernized Asian, "sticking with your own kind"
is not always advisable. Sadly, to this day when I meet a particularly Asian
Asian, my initial reaction is one of wary distrust. I have yet to face
anywhere near the same type of racial/cultural hatred from any white, brown,
or black person as I have from my fellow yellows, for being "too white".

FWIW, I don't hate my parents - quite the opposite in fact. Then again, they
weren't the stereotypical hyper-traditional Asian parent, so that might be
something. What I _do_ find sad yet hilarious is the number of Asian parents
who spend years convincing their children to eschew any life skills in favor
of academic achievement... and then get on their case when they end up with a
boring dead-end desk job, no hobbies, and are generally miserable. Well, duh.

~~~
noname123
> Whereabouts did/do you live?

I grew up in the East Coast; I'd venture a guess that you probably live on the
West Coast. The Bay Area/LA/Vancouver, etc.

> As a further anecdote, as a westernized Asian, "sticking" with your own
> kind" is not always advisable.

I grew up in Connecticut first where I was the only Asian kid on the block and
hanged out with white kids. Then I moved to Washington D.C where I went to an
Asian-majority high school. So I could empathize on one hand, you feeling
distrust from "Asian Asian," and on the other hand, my personal experience is
that my closest friends are Asians who could relate to things that my
Caucasian friends could not relate to.

> I have yet to face anywhere near the same type of racial/cultural hatred
> from any white, brown, or black person as I have from my fellow yellows, for
> being "too white".

Maybe the hatred is mutual? Maybe you dislike "Asian Asians" for being "too
Asian". I have to be honest, don't take it personally, but I have a extreme
distrust when I meet a particularly white-washed Asian. I have yet to face
anywhere near the same type of racial/cultural hatred as I have from my fellow
yellows, for being "too Asian." There's saying, in America, the 1st generation
tries to keep their customs, 2nd generation tries to assimilate desperately,
and the 3rd generation tries to seek their roots. I'm trying to span all three
generations at once.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"Maybe you dislike "Asian Asians" for being "too Asian"."_

I don't have a problem with Asians-Asians (aka FOBs). It does seem that some
of them have a problem with me.

My experience with "my own people" is somewhat colorful. In an attempt to have
me keep more of my heritage, my folks saw fit to send me to Chinese school
when I was younger. As one of the more westernized kids there we were subject
to ridicule, condescension, and outright hostility - from teachers _and_
students alike. It was the most emotionally fucked up thing I've experienced
to-date, and that's after going through the wringer of shitty/abusive college
profs and evil exes. Where I grew up, whites picking on Asians was rare, and
certainly never systemic. Yet I found myself at the butt end of racism, from
my own kind, on a regular basis. I've been through some tough shit, but this
remains the only time in my life where I've ever contemplated suicide. It is
also the only time of my life where I'd considered myself truly bullied.

And more galling, the teachers were complicit, encouraging, and sometimes even
_participatory_ in this sort of thing.

It's erased _any_ sense of racial solidarity I ever had. Prior to that point I
used to actually believe that a Chinese might look out for another Chinese -
after all, we were all in another country, in the same rickety immigrant boat.
So much for that.

Those years have basically soured my ability to approach "Asian Asians" with
anything better than a vague distrust. I do not treat Asian-Asians with
hostility, but I certainly cannot readily welcome them into my circles as I
can anyone else.

FWIW, I'm a 1st-gen. I was born and raised in Asia, and have every claim to my
heritage as any other Asian on this continent. Yet, I've been welcomed in
every single community I've ever approached except my own.

There's a silver lining though - after I got myself the hell out of that
place, I diversified my social circles greatly and became more or less color-
blind. I no longer hung out with the "other Asians" - even the westernized
ones. I'm happy to say that my social circles span the entire racial spectrum
in a way that none of the more traditional Asians I know have done.

[edit] Curious note: I have a lot of very Asian-Asian Korean and Japanese
friends, and we have no trouble getting along. So it's not the _Asian-ness_
that seems to be the issue. If I had to take a wild poke at it, I'd say it's
because there's not the constant insinuation that I'm a traitor to all
Chinese-kind for daring to embrace Western culture. _shrug_

------
stcredzero
_As a result, throughout my childhood—and most of my adulthood—we mostly
contended with a slim parade of different, sometimes contradictory,
caricatures: lotus blossoms and dragon ladies, math nerds and martial artists,
refugees and gang-bangers. Ad nauseum._

The amount of presumption that I have to deal with from strangers on a regular
basis is still disturbing. Such interactions only comprise a small fraction of
the total, but a modern urban setting is sufficiently populated to generate a
regular supply. No, I look nothing like Jackie Chan. Please don't treat me
like someone wearing a costume at Disney World. I'm not a cartoon and I'm not
your instant Asian friend. Yes, I was born here. English is my first language.
I know next to nothing about martial arts. I'm not bad but still not that good
at math. No, I don't think I'm better than you, I don't need to be shown up,
you're not making the world a more beautiful and better place by doing that.
(Still, all of those are better than the instant Asian=target of abuse idiots
or the weird psycho-sexual vibes from certain kinds of middle-aged white
guys.)

I observe the little dance that people go through when they get to know each
other. I notice the little verbal and non-verbal signals being passed and
being noticed. I'd really like to notice more of those transactions and stop
wondering about their relative lack coincident with these big globs of
presumption coming out of nowhere.

~~~
sudont
"The amount of presumption that I have to deal with from strangers on a
regular basis "

Seriously? Where the hell do you live, Georgia? But, I suppose being white I
don't see it.

And that psycho-sexual thing is called a "rice queen." Uh, fyi, I guess.

~~~
brianmwang
It still happens even in major metropolitan centers like NYC. I still vividly
recall being gawked over by a crowd of extremely rowdy girls on Halloween day,
having "Look, it's Jackie Chan!" thrown at me. They were pretty much shrieking
about it and on the subway, no less. Nothing to do but have to actually listen
to that nonsense. It shocked and sickened me for a while.

Granted, the girls in question seemed to be from generally poorer, low-
education areas. That still doesn't excuse it in my book though.

~~~
stcredzero
Having your features be an instant mark of attention is unsettling. Women
often understand this, as they're subject to being hollered at by random guys.

------
doron
Following the media frenzy that is the aftermath of Chua's article i cannot
help but feel that there is a larger macro narrative at play here.

There is no doubt, the article struck a nerve for many Asian-Americans, some
of which try to either validate the way they grew up or the understandable
resentment of others who feel cheated from some vocation that didn't
materialize because of the Math/Violin issue.

Then there is this large group of what seems to be largely white who either
figured there was something there for the upbringing of their children, and
those who cry abuse.

As I was raised in another country, this conversation, whether of Asian origin
or Caucasian, strikes me as a genuine american cultural phenomena. There is an
anxiety here about children and the way they are brought up and educated that
is unmatched anywhere else that i have seen. This discussion and the
discussion of yesterday about the treatment of all males as defacto criminals
in their approach to children, feeds from the same root, that strikes me at
times as some kind of hysterical episode.

------
miloshasan
The author points out something he may not have even intended: that parenting
might not matter at all, despite the raging discussions about which parenting
style is better.

In fact, lots of research on twins and adopted children suggests that
parenting matters very little in shaping a child's personality and skills,
while biology and peer groups matter a lot. Identical twins turn out quite
similar regardless of whether they grow up in the same family, while adopted
siblings are as different as any random people. (Check "How the Mind Works" by
Pinker for a great overview.) People have a hard time accepting this, since
most would like to believe that they have a power to shape their children, but
this does not make it any less true.

> the Immigration Act of 1965... didn't just abolish racial quotas, it also
> created preference categories for science, math and engineering-trained
> immigrants to come over.

Ah, so Asian immigrants to the US are far from an unbiased sample of their
original populations! This explains a lot more than bitter fights over
parenting.

~~~
cubix
I have a hard time accepting it because there is significant evidence to the
contrary:

<http://www.cdc.gov/ace/findings.htm>

[http://www.frasermustardchair.ca/resources/what-does-the-
evi...](http://www.frasermustardchair.ca/resources/what-does-the-evidence-
tell-us/)

~~~
miloshasan
From what I could tell, the links you posted are no evidence to the contrary.

First, child abuse is beyond what most would call "parenting"; that term is
mostly applied to things like strictness with respect to school homework,
video games, pressure to choose certain careers, etc. My argument was that
those of us that care about giving their children the best should not sweat
too much over where precisely to draw the lines, because the effect of these
decisions on the child's personality and life outcome is minimal.

Second, it is very possible that the same genes that increase the chance of a
person being a child abuser also increase the chance of their child being,
say, an alcoholic or criminal.

~~~
cubix

      "Lulu handed me her 'surprise', which turned out to be a card,"
      writes Chua in her explosive new memoir... "More accurately, it was
      a piece of paper folded crookedly in half, with a big happy face on
      the front. Inside, 'Happy Birthday, Mummy! Love, Lulu' was scrawled
      in crayon above another happy face. I gave the card back to Lulu. 'I
      don't want this,' I said. 'I want a better one – one that you've put
      some thought and effort into. I have a special box, where I keep all
      my cards from you and Sophia, and this one can't go in there.' I
      grabbed the card again and flipped it over. I pulled out a pen and
      scrawled 'Happy Birthday Lulu Whoopee!' I added a big sour face. …
      'I reject this.'"
    

I would certainly call that child abuse, although I suppose Chua would call it
"parenting"? To coerce Lulu into piano practice, Chua prevented her from using
the washroom, and withheld food and affection until she could perform to her
mother's satisfaction. That would qualify as abuse according the Adverse
Childhood Experience Study. A lot of child abuse is rationalized by the
perpetrator as just "strictness".

------
knowtheory
Oliver Wang is totally right on this.

But i'm slightly more ambivalent than he is on the subject. What Chua wrote
did hit a resonant note in American cultural stereotypes, and that's bad, BUT,
i don't think it invalidates Chua's points particularly either.

Chua's approach is a particular style of child rearing, but her own piece was
so filled with nebulous caveats, that i found it hard to believe that anything
she particularly said was rooted in being Chinese.

The real problem in the end, i guess, is just that she was an Asian woman
saying these things. Not that she's got some of the overbearing qualities
shared by strict mothers everywhere.

~~~
sethg
I’m putting a lot more trust in _responses to_ Chua, from other Asian-
Americans talking about their own experiences, than in Chua herself. Once the
WSJ op-ed became That Thing On The Internet Everyone Was Talking About, she
started walking back, saying that the WSJ quoted fragments of her book out of
context. Then she told a newspaper columnist “I’m an unreliable narrator”,
saying that the book as a whole was an exaggeration.
([http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-
bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/13/...](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-
bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/13/apop011311.DTL&ao=all#ixzz1BGR62v6z)) So...
what is really going on with Chua and her kids, not to mention her husband?
About all I can safely infer is that the woman has, as they say, Issues.

~~~
frossie
_she started walking back, saying that the WSJ quoted fragments of her book
out of context_

I haven't read the book, but I have seen evidence that the WSJ extracts were
highly selective. In fact in the Guardian piece below, in which her children
are also quoted, it says that she completely changed her approach when she
realised the effect that it had. Her daughter is quoted as saying:

 _"The other day, I messed up a math test. I texted my mom that I got an A-
and she replied, 'Who cares! Mummy loves u!'"_

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/jan/15/amy-
chua-...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/jan/15/amy-chua-tiger-
mother-interview?INTCMP=SRCH)

[Edit for those who don't want to read the linked article: The Guardian piece
casts the book as a confessionary "these are the things I did because I
thought they were right and boy, it just made my kids miserable so I stopped"
rather than the WSJ-implied tone of "this is the way I raised my kids and you
wussy Westerners should do it like this or be squashed"]

~~~
sethg
On the one hand, I have a low opinion of the WSJ editorial pages, so I _want
to_ believe that the editors crafted the op-ed to portray Chua in a way that
reflects their own political and racial biases, rather than the image that
Chua wanted to present of herself. (I know personally a family that signed up
for one of those “reality TV” shows, and I cringe at how they were portrayed.)
On the other hand, framing her this way appears to be helping her sales
figures. Back on the first hand, would she have wanted to project this image
of herself to a national audience just to spike her book sales?

------
anonymous246
Anybody want to weigh in on why Asians give their kids Western first names in
the US? Why don't they use Chinese first names? Why don't they change their
last names also? Serious question.

~~~
cglee
Several reasons:

\- a lot of Asian families are Christian, so they get Christian names

\- racism and discrimination. "li guo" just isn't as cool as "pierre"

\- there's no real great way to spell a lot of Asian names, so might as well
just adopt a Western name

\- many Asian children have an Asian name and a Westerner name. Both are valid
aliases for the person.

~~~
democracy
Racism is not an issue here, since the last name is still Asian, I guess.

A friend of mine from China said the main reason is that some Chinese names
are hard to pronounce for an English-speaker. Also other Asian nations
(Indians, for examle) seem to leave their names as is, and also give Indian
names to kids, I am just wondering, is it something Chinese specific?

~~~
tastybites
Racism isn't the issue - discrimination is.

"Richard Kim" means I grew up in America and will have no problem talking to
you.

"Han Yong Kim" means you're going to have trouble communicating with me in the
workplace.

