
Famous for its resistance to immigration, Japan opens its doors - phront
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Cover-Story/Famous-for-its-resistance-to-immigration-Japan-opens-its-doors
======
weiming
The article doesn't mention, but Japan also took steps to make immigration
easier for skilled workers with the Highly-Skilled Foreign Professional visa
[1] based on this point system [2]. Can even qualify for permanent residency
in as little as one year if you score 80+ points.

[1] [http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/](http://www.immi-
moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/)

[2] [http://www.immi-
moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/pdf/171110_leaflet...](http://www.immi-
moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/pdf/171110_leaflet.pdf)

~~~
jpatokal
The problem is that the points requirements are too high for the type of young
entrepreneurial people Japan wants to attract, and Japan itself is not
attractive for the high rollers of the professional or scientific world that
would qualify. In the 5+ years since it was rolled out, the number of
successful applicants is less than 5000, most of whom were apparently Chinese
nationals already in Japan.

[https://www.nippon.com/en/currents/d00304/](https://www.nippon.com/en/currents/d00304/)

~~~
iandanforth
Am I reading this wrong? It looks like you get 40 points for having a salary
of 10M yen. That's not very high for tech jobs. That plus having a few years
of experience, a bachelors, and being under 40 gets you past the 70 point bar
at least.

~~~
lev99
A tech job making 10M yen in Japan is a very different experience than a tech
job in the US making 100k+ a year.

~~~
JanisL
I don't know too much about employment in Japan, would love it if you could
elaborate on this.

~~~
adventured
The average programmer salary in Japan is half that of the US, approximately.
Their economy is dramatically smaller per capita than the US (the US GDP per
capita is 58% higher), and then on top of that engineers are not paid nearly
so well as in the US within that economic potential.

It's a lot more rare to make $100,000+ per year as a programmer in Japan.
Normal circumstances generally will not get you there.

------
forkLding
Not surprised, this is what happens when you "close" off immigration, aging
population, have a decrease in new births, restrict most immigrant
workers/immigrants to temporary visas/temporary work terms despite length of
stay and have a politically conservative mentality towards immigrants.

You either invest into more technologies that allow for less labour input or
you basically have to somehow increase labour input.

Moreover, Japan's mentality against foreign trainees/interns have led to
criticisms from U.S. State Department's Trafficking in Persons because they
are essentially being used as unofficial farm workers despite advertising it
as a technical (technical as in dealing with machines) training or internship
program without real oversight into working conditions and overwork without
pay: [https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Economy/Abuses-
ramp...](https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Economy/Abuses-rampant-in-
foreign-trainee-program-Japan-labor-ministry-finds)

~~~
the_new_guy29
They are still closed for 99% of people who would like to immmigrate there.

They only need highly skilled profesionals, not masses for cheap.

Best part is Japan just doesn't care if other countries see it as racist
nation - they still get going strong. And im 100% sure if anyone if going to
find a solution to ever growing needs of capitalism without immigration it
would be them.

~~~
jpatokal
Well, Japan's spiral of depopulation means they actually _do_ need masses of
people, and they're importing them too via all sorts of dodgy trainee visas
etc to staff convenience stores, hotel front desks, construction sites,
lettuce farms etc. It's just politically impossible to support permanent
immigration for anybody but the 1%.

~~~
burfog
They don't need people.

The GDP of Japan might benefit, but that doesn't mean benefit for typical
Japanese people. Wages would be pushed down. There would be cultural conflict.
Japan's unique culture would die.

Japan is not in a permanent spiral of depopulation. There exist families who
have plenty of children. These children will tend to do as their parents did.
After a few generations of decline, the population will rebound.

~~~
distances
> Japan's unique culture would die.

Not commenting on your other points, but think you're misguided with this.
Culture is not something that stays the same and needs to be preserved; it
lives and changes with people. UK today isn't the same it was 30 years ago,
and neither is Japan. Trying to set a culture in stone will lead to some quite
undesirable undertones.

------
majos
I wonder what percentage of these immigrants are ethnically east/southeast
Asian, or even ethnically Japanese. I imagine a large portion of the Peruvian
and Brazilian immigrants shown in the chart have Japanese ancestry (I believe
Japanese ancestry makes immigration from those countries easier -- to the
extent that one point there was a black market in being adopted as an adult by
Japanese people -- and there is a large, old Japanese emigrant community in
both countries).

It's a somewhat crass question. But ethnicity, not just nationality, seems to
matter a lot in Japan.

~~~
volgo
> But ethnicity, not just nationality, seems to matter a lot in Japan

The correct modern terminology for that is racism.

Something most people don't know a lot about, because as a culture Japanese
tend to be very outwardly polite so a lot of racism is very subtle and can't
be spotted by someone who's just visiting.

~~~
mikekchar
Every time this pops up, I feel compelled to point out that in the 8 years
I've lived in Japan (over a 10 year period), I haven't found this to be true.

There is racism in Japan, just like everywhere. When I lived in Canada, I saw
a sales manager where I was working throwing how CVs with Indian names. I
asked him what he was doing. "There's no point in hiring someone whose name I
can't even pronounce", was the reply. In the UK I couldn't get on a bus
without somebody complaining about how dark people were taking over the
country. Racism is everywhere.

It's a good point that in Japan you will almost never run into racism in
polite company -- because, as you say, it is considered impolite. However many
expats who live here complain about racism. What's going on?

IMHO it's not racism, it's culturalism. In my experience, if you speak
Japanese well and you know how to act as a Japanese person, you will see
almost no racism. However, if you are a visible minority (as I am) people
often expect that you are ignorant of Japanese culture. They put on the "you
are a guest" routine, which is fine except that it wears thin when it is your
home. One or two gestures and a word or two of fluent Japanese almost always
snaps them out of it.

Just to illustrate the difference, I once went to Takayama with my wife (who
is Japanese). We stayed at a traditional ryokan (inn). Takayama has a very
famous festival and fairly large old town, so it is popular with tourists.
Because my wife changed her surname to mine, the woman running the ryokan
assumed she was not from Japan (although she is very obviously of Japanese
ethnicity). It took quite a while for the woman to twig that my wife was, in
fact, Japanese and lived in Japan. It was the first time my wife experienced
that difference and it surprised her quite a bit.

I have experienced some racism in Japan, but I really don't think that it's
all that much different than anywhere else. Sometimes I think that people
don't see the racism where they live -- often because they are not a visible
minority. When they become a visible minority for the first time, it's a
shock. When I went to University the CS department was composed mostly of
foreign students from China or India and most of my friends were from there.
It was the first time that I really noticed the racism in Canada.

I've run out of time, but at least in my experience, it is relatively easy to
live in Japan _if_ you decide to be Japanese. They don't do melting pot here.
If you want to hold on to your own culture and to act like you did in your
home country, you're going to have troubles being accepted. But if you decide
to accept Japanese culture completely, I don't think you will run into any
problems. The if part is hard, though, and I've seen many people run into the
brick wall that is Japanese culture.

~~~
spicytunacone
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Never set foot in Japan myself but your
overall view falls in line with those of almost every foreigner in Japan I've
ever followed. Something I find that's less discussed, probably because I only
frequent English speaking sites, is specifically other Asians in Japan and I'm
wondering if someone here can shed some light on that. The impression I have
from reading random accounts is Koreans and Chinese (perhaps all of Mainland,
Taiwan and Hong Kong?) are expected to conduct themselves like any other
Japanese and fully integrate, whereas Caucasian gaijin (or any Westernized
people as your wife's anecdote seems to imply) are comparatively given more
leeway (expected to do things their own way, but as a corollary never thought
of as fully Japanese)?

The model I have in my head is that the average Japanese who doesn't know your
deal will put you in one of two categories:

A) You are a temporary visitor. A tourist on vacation or business trip.

B) You are a full fledged member of Japanese society.

So the more "foreign" you seem, the more likely you are to be considered "A".
I'm particularly interested in Southeast Asians: are they expected to be more
Japanese/Asian or "other"? I guess the temporal nature of their visas helps
cement them as the latter.

~~~
mikekchar
I have a few acquaintances who are from different places in south east Asia.
As far as I can tell it's the same for them as for me. I think the main
problems happen when you look close enough to ethnic Japanese that you _might_
be Japanese. If you pair that with flawless Japanese language skill, then
people will assume you are Japanese. This caused a problem for a friend of
mine who was Korean, but spoke Japanese without an accent. Sometimes his
acceptance of the culture didn't match the expectations placed on him. But I
suppose it's hard to complain -- people treating you exactly as they would
treat anybody else.

Another acquaintance is dark skinned (I can't remember where he's from) and
has similar Japanese ability. I think he's has a softer landing. Even I get it
pretty easy sometimes and my Japanese ability (both language and culture) is
pretty middling. There is a kind of role in society where you can be the
"friendly gaikokujin". Everybody wants to talk to you and learn about foreign
places. They want to know how cultures are different in other places. If they
feel like they can treat you as a Japanese person, you get a kind of celebrity
treatment. I think this is probably only the case in the country side, where I
live. In the big cities, they see enough foreigners that it isn't so special.

Most problems I've seen come from people using their "Super Gaijin Powers"
(can't remember where I heard that first -- I didn't make it up). Basically if
you look different, you can often ignore societal rules with no apparent
penalty. You do whatever you want. You dress however you want. You say
whatever you want. Nobody will complain. But there are huge unseen penalties
and when those penalties become apparent, people get very angry.

A good example of this that I saw often when I was working as an assistant
language teacher at the high school was foreigners not going to work parties.
At the end of special events (and randomly through the year) there are parties
where you go and eat and drink (often a lot). Some of my colleagues just
refused to go because they said that they couldn't speak to anyone, didn't
drink, didn't like the food, it was too expensive, etc, etc. I would tell
them, "You _have_ to go. If you don't go, you won't get along with anyone."
They would reply, "Nobody cares if I go. I just tell them I'm not going and
nobody says a thing." One or two years later: "Everybody is so unfriendly.
Nobody talks to me. They all avoid me. They never listen to my ideas. They
pretend that they don't speak English, even though I know they do. They are
all two faced bastards. I can't wait to get out of here". It's so
frustratingly predictable...

But, anyway to the point: If you look Japanese enough and speak Japanese well,
then you probably won't get away with abusing your gaijin super powers -- so
in the long run it might be easier. Even for me, I had bit of a health problem
and had to cut out drinking for a few months. It happened to coincide with
drinking event -- which I attended but where I drank tea. One of the other
teachers was so upset that he lodged a formal complaint against me (it's on my
permanent record!) I later apologised profusely and went out drinking with him
and we were the best of friends after that. There is no way that he would have
complained if he didn't consider me "close enough" to Japanese.

------
HillaryBriss
The system described here appears to be quite a bit more selective and limited
than that found in the US. Permission to live and work in Japan is temporary
in the vast majority of cases.

> _... discussions have centered around issues such as how many temporary
> workers should be allowed in and for how many years, rather than the longer-
> term question of whether Japan needs permanent immigration_

> _One of the biggest difficulties has to do with restrictions on allowing
> family members to accompany workers -- a move designed to prevent permanent
> immigration._

> _The government 's program requires trainees to stay with the same employer
> for three years ... Trainees are discouraged from going back to their
> country before finishing the three-year term or from having a child, and
> they cannot bring their spouse on the visa._

------
ThrustVectoring
Even with a more open system for legally accepting immigrants, Japan has an
extraordinarily closed system for culturally accepting immigrants. An
immigrant to Japan is considered an outsider to much more of an extent than
other countries.

~~~
ShabbosGoy
And it is a lifelong stigmatization as well. You will never be one of them, no
matter how hard you try.

~~~
iguy
You can never ever become Chinese either. Nor Indian. Nor Nigerian. Nor
Russian. Never mind Kuwaiti. The exception here is the west, both in
terminology used for people originating elsewhere, and in actual beliefs.

[You, personally, may possibly have one exception on this list, roughly if you
come from the edge of one of these, but never more.]

~~~
ikeyany
How so? The west is well-known for treating ethnic minorities as the "other".
I don't think your opinion is very common among them.

~~~
xkcd-sucks
The state sanctioned Chinese language literally does not have a word for
"ethnicnically foreign permanent resident/citizen of China"

~~~
thaumasiotes
That would sound a little more convincing if you hadn't taken six words to
define the concept in English.

~~~
hueving
"American" is the term in the US because it's not tied to ethnicity. "Chinese"
is tied to ethnicity.

~~~
yorwba
English speakers may think of "Chinese" as an ethnicity, but it's different in
Chinese. The default term is 中国人， which literally means "person from the
middle country", which is quite obviously about nationality. If you want to
talk about ethnicity, you'd use 汉人 for Han Chinese, 蒙古人 for Mongols and so on
for any of the hundreds of Chinese ethnicities.

------
victor106
Anyone here know how much a typical (I know its hard to qualify a 'typical'
programmer) gets paid in Japan compared to the US?

~~~
pheon
Peanuts. Japans labor market structure is based on the army/military mode of
operation.

Imagine your skilled with a riffle because.. you like to shoot stuff out on
the farm. Sign up for the army and you will be shipped to bootcamp where they
teach you how to shoot "correctly", polish your shoes and make your bed and
most importantly chain of command.

Note: commanding office says jump, you say how high.

You have your platoon where everyone entered at the same time, your all
buddies, get shat on by the peps one year ahead of you and everyone progress
at the same pace.

Note: skill as a good shot has no relevance to your rank and pay.

After you have put in time you can advanced in rank and thus pay. Get married
/ kids theres additional benefits.

Note: your rank and pay are directly related to years of service.

Unlike the army, you will not get any medals, heroics of jumping on a grenade
to save the team are frowned upon. Its better to hold a meeting with the team,
to clarify what the grenade is, check all possible outcomes, investigate every
tiny detail by which time everyone is dead. Key point is everyone, the dead
part is largely irrelevant.

After some time, your buddies seem to like you and your leading the platoon.
Congratulations you have now advanced your career to the fast track lane.
Moving slightly faster than your peers as they are "workers" and not
management.

Note: fast track has nothing to do with your shooting skill.

.. and so on and so on.

source: lived and worked Tokyo for 10+ years.

~~~
PhantomGremlin
_Its better to hold a meeting with the team, to clarify what the grenade is,
check all possible outcomes, investigate every tiny detail by which time
everyone is dead. Key point is everyone_

This was also my experience working for a US subsidiary of a Japanese
multinational.

They do things very very deliberately. Which in some fields is a good thing.
But that doesn't work all that well when competing against companies that
"move fast and break things". Or even against companies that operate at a non-
glacial pace.

Occasionally I would have loved to scream: "JUST MAKE A FUCKING DECISION!" But
that's not generally part of their culture.

To be fair, there were also maverick groups within the company that did move
fast and were able to compete quite successfully. But they were the exception.

~~~
pheon
Yup, there are exceptional engineering talent in these mega corps, rare but it
does exist. Usually the talent gets filtered by Division X progression.
Eventually the best end up in Division 1, which is good but it takes a long
time for this process to do its magic... but thats ok you`ve signed up for 30
years of service.

Thats the theory, sometimes it works in practice, sometimes other shit screws
it all up.

------
brandelune
"It will also be possible for trainees to extend their stay for up to 10
years."

Basically a way to cut wages forever.

------
eruci
People are divided into two kinds: useful and useless. Wooing the first type
is the reasonable thing to do.

------
coretx
So it seems not even a nuke can kill Japanese fascism.

~~~
dang
Ideological and nationalistic flamewar aren't allowed here. We ban accounts
that do this, so please (re-)read
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
and don't do it again.

We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17274714](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17274714)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
coretx
Noted. I should have known that my hyperbolic rhetoric would incite a
undesired emotional response instead of a civil and rational discussion or
debate. Flame-wars, and especially not offensive flame-wars are not my intent
nor where they but I see why it appears as such thus please accept my apology
for what it is worth. Also: Thank you for taking the effort to point it out
and correct me.

~~~
dang
No worries. A lot of this boils down to understanding internet forum dynamics
and avoiding the things that usually don't work.

------
dzonga
reverse centuries of gains and progress, because you wanted to be homogenous
country. it might take up to a generation to reverse the damage that has been
done. social aspects and orders have been lost e.g veggie men - no desire to
breed. what most people forget is foreigners bring new ideas and vibrancy.

