
The First Muslims in England - DanBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35843991
======
jkot
> _Before Elizabeth 's reign, England - like the rest of Christendom -
> understood a garbled version of Islam mainly through the bloody and
> polarised experiences of the Crusades._

> _No Christian even knew the words "Islam" or "Muslim",_

> _Christians simply could not accept that Islam was a coherent religious
> belief. Instead they dismissed it as a pagan polytheism or a heretical
> deformation of Christianity._

That is just not true. Christians knew Islam for almost millennium before 16th
century and centuries before crusades. There were christian communities all
over Muslim world.

~~~
Snargorf
Indeed. In fact, basically all Muslim country north or west of Saudi Arabia
were Christian for centuries before being conquered by Muslim invasions.
Syria, Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, Balkans, Turkey - all
Christian before the armies of Islam came in 632-1683.

It's an interesting piece of history that not a lot of people realize.

That's why all these places have/had Christian communities. They're the
leftover conquered people who were too stubborn to convert of leave under the
abuse of their Muslim rulers. It's not like a bunch of Christians have ever
immigrated into any Muslim country - lol!

~~~
mkaziz
And they were Jewish or Pagan before the Christians forced their way in. Check
out this article:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence#Ch...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence#Christian_violence)

Those old warrior popes sound a lot like the Mullahs of today. I particular
enjoyed this line: "In the 12th century, Bernard of Clairvaux wrote: "'The
knight of Christ may strike with confidence and die yet more confidently; for
he serves Christ when he strikes, and saves himself when he falls.... When he
inflicts death, it is to Christ's profit, and when he suffers death, it is his
own gain.'""

~~~
DanielBMarkham
Agreed that in general it's an eerie thing. There are some interesting
similarities, especially with the First Crusade and ISIS.

There are also some striking differences. Aside from the Byzantine,
Christianity was mostly monolithic, with secular rulers jockeying for power
inside of one Pope. On the other side, the religious and secular authority
were both the same person.

This led, over time, to the crusades being a way of wielding _internal_
control over Christiandom, because one guy (the Pope) could preach a crusade
against any local, domestic opponents and get some kind of traction out of it.
Islam has no centralized authority. (Lots of other differences also)

~~~
maaku
Eh that's only true of Western Christiandom, which was of relatively less
importance until the fall of Byzantine. It certainly doesn't describe the
various Orthodox sects, which either didn't participate or were sometimes
victims in the crusades.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
Absolutely. As I noted.

The Crusades were full of ironies. One of the most prominent was that they
ended up sacking Constantinople, which was exactly the opposite intent of how
it all started.

------
fiatmoney
This is a shit article, impossible to read as anything other than propaganda
("look guys, they've _always_ been here! It definitely wasn't deliberate
policy of a contemporary government" (
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-
order/6418456...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-
order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-
says-former-adviser.html) )).

Christian-Muslim contact was widespread, starting with the jihad that
established Islam to begin with (the Byzantine Empire, large swathes of the
Mideast, and most of North Africa was Christian), and continuing up to the
Franco-Ottoman alliance ( [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-
Ottoman_alliance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance) )
which the English were definitely familiar with (see the Ottoman rug in
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambassadors_%28Holbein%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambassadors_%28Holbein%29)
).

Mariners would have been by necessity extremely familiar with the Muslim
piracy and slave trades (see eg John Smith
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Smith_%28explorer%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Smith_%28explorer%29)
).

~~~
tim333
I thought it was quite good. It starts with muslims and christians killing
each other in the Crusades so it's not trying to pretend it's all peace and
love. I'm not sure where you get "look guys, they've always been here! It
definitely wasn't deliberate policy of a contemporary government."

~~~
zhemao
Yeah, and I doubt anyone would believe that Britain's current Muslim community
has any continuity with that of the Elizabethan age.

~~~
dogma1138
It doesn't the first Mosque in the UK was built in 1889 in Bath.

Before the immigration waves form N. Africa and the Middle East the vast
majority of British Muslims were from British India. There were very few
Mosques in western Europe at the time and they were virtually non prior to the
late 19th century, Switzerland didn't had a single mosque till the 1960's, the
first Mosque in Sweden was built in 1984.

While Europe has had some Muslim population it was quite different than the
current one, most of it was aristocracy and upper middle class in Britain,
France, Italy and Spain which was quite detached from the current form of
Islam which is heavily influenced by modern Wahhabism and the post Ottoman
Muslim Brotherhood movements.

Other than those communities the few other Muslim communities which were
present in Western Europe at the time were mostly from the Baltic states which
had a population of Muslims in the forms of Tattars which also as detached
from what one would expect from Islam today as possible.

------
DanBC
BBC Radio Four has some interesting programmes about the history of the UK.
This magazine article ties in with the new "Book of the Week" \- _This Orient
Isle_.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b074w30m](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b074w30m)

That title feels like a hat tip to _This Sceptred Isle_ , an excellent
programme. Sadly, only four episodes are available on the website.
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00qh19l](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00qh19l)

Another history series people might be interested in is "Voices from the Old
Bailey".
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b012stwb](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b012stwb)

Shop lifting
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04fc80v](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04fc80v)

and smuggling
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04d4sbs](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04d4sbs)

are particularly interesting.

------
known
The Arabic countries led by the Muslims were the most advanced
scientists/engineers in the world, until they let the religious crazies take
over.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_science_and_engine...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_science_and_engineering_in_the_Islamic_world)

~~~
welanes
Yes, the lost potential is heartbreaking when you think of it.

A good piece from the Economist here -
[http://www.economist.com/node/1213392](http://www.economist.com/node/1213392)

> in the 1,000 years since the reign of the Caliph Mamoun, say the authors,
> the Arabs have translated as many books as Spain translates in one year.

I do hope we see a return to more terrestrial matters from that part of the
world.

------
ilaksh
Islam versus Christianity has been used to motivate war for centuries. People
do need to be aware of propaganda and research real history.

------
ps4fanboy
When the world moves away from oil as means of energy production there will be
plenty more Muslims in England and Europe as a whole, it will trigger the
largest mass immigration the world has ever seen.

~~~
coldtea
Actually that might be the opposite: when their lands get more viable to live
and prosper, without foreign intervention, wars, corrupt governments, etc to
destabilize them and get their oil resources cheaply.

After all they have been staying there for centuries before oil became a
thing.

~~~
ps4fanboy
Oil money has enabled their populations to increase dramatically, they need
the oil money to import food among other things. They have hardly been selling
their oil cheaply the arab oil belt has profited greatly.

~~~
sydneysider
Hardly, the people at the top have profited greatly, the rest still live in
poverty. Countries which try and share the wealth of the oil i.e keep it a
state owned affair are quickly labelled extremist and a threat to 'democracy'
and 'world peace', then are bombed to oblivion. Afterwards a new puppet
government is installed which allows foreign companies to come and use its
oil.

~~~
gozur88
>Countries which try and share the wealth of the oil i.e keep it a state owned
affair are quickly labelled extremist and a threat to 'democracy' and 'world
peace', then are bombed to oblivion.

Oh? When did we bomb Norway?

~~~
sydneysider
Exception to the rule, much easier to paint the middle east or south American
countries as 'the other' than your own neighbour. Also there are more types of
war than just dropping bombs, maybe I should have clarified.

~~~
gozur88
When did we bomb Venezuela? When did we bomb Russia, or Nigeria? When did we
bomb Mexico?

~~~
zhemao
To be fair, we (the US) did invade Mexico several times.

~~~
gozur88
If by several you mean "once". Chasing a criminal isn't the same thing as an
invasion.

And the war with Mexico occurred thirteen years before the US started using
oil commercially.

This "wars for oil" stuff is something a lot of people repeat to themselves
without really thinking about it.

~~~
coldtea
> _This "wars for oil" stuff is something a lot of people repeat to themselves
> without really thinking about it._

And then you bring Venezuela, Russia, Nigeria etc as examples where these
things didn't happen...

Not only forgetting all the places where those wars DID happen (all over the
wider middle east for one), but also the numerous ways the west intervened in
those places, from constant pressure with tons of ways (sponsoring political
opponents, arming guerilla groups, helping their border states invade them,
manipulating their economy, down to toppling governments).

Maybe get 2-3 good books about the subject?

Or an article to start:

[http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-
pentagon-i...](http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-pentagon-
isis-20160327-story.html)

[http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=852](http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=852)

[http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/03/18/u-s-interventions-
in-...](http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/03/18/u-s-interventions-in-venezuela-
peru-and-paraguay/)

[http://www.venezuelasolidarity.co.uk/latest-wikileaks-
show-f...](http://www.venezuelasolidarity.co.uk/latest-wikileaks-show-further-
us-intervention-in-venezuela/)

[http://www.amazon.com/Crude-Interventions-United-States-
Worl...](http://www.amazon.com/Crude-Interventions-United-States-
World/dp/1842776290)

[http://williamblum.org/chapters/freeing-the-world-to-
death/u...](http://williamblum.org/chapters/freeing-the-world-to-death/us-
coup-against-hugo-chavez-of-venezuela-2002)

~~~
gozur88
The US has meddled in the affairs of _lots_ of countries. Countries with oil
and countries without. How much oil do Japan and Korea have? Chile?

