

An Atheist Defends Religion - Kapura
https://medium.com/understandings-epiphanies/2bed2dd4ed78

======
divinedefault
Part I: The value offered by religion has absolutely no bearing on the
truthfulness of the religion. Charitable acts or creating a sense of community
by Mormons, Scientologists, or Christians do not mean that Joseph Smith found
those gold plates, the character Xenu ever existed, or that Jesus was the son
of God. It is possible to have communities without worshiping invisible beings
who may or may not answer prayers. In big bold letters, the author states that
"God makes people happier by providing answers." If we look at the happiest
countries in the world ([http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/09/business/earth-
institute-world...](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/09/business/earth-institute-
world-happiness-rankings/)), we see countries with large atheist populations
at the top of the list...every single year. He references a "shitload of
evidence", but I wonder if he's ever taken a look at crime statistics around
the world. Even if he looks at just the United States, he would find higher
rates of crime in states where religiosity is highest. Religion does not seem
to be a barrier to immoral actions nor is it a panacea for happiness. Perhaps
we have different meanings for "shitload of evidence."

Part II: This is the classic strawman section. I actually agree with the
author that many of the examples given in most debates are evidence of the
evil of men, but he fails to recognize that religion has historically provided
cover for those actions. Slavery has historically enjoyed such cover. Misogony
and homophobia have luxuriated and continue to luxuriate under such religious
cover.

I'm quite familiar with the problem of evil and the author did absolutely
nothing to negate this. If God knows that evil is happening every minute of
the day, He either can do nothing to prevent it or doesn't care to. As Sam
Harris points out, God is therefore either impotent or evil. Every day I hear
from religious people who claim that God helped them in some manner. They
regularly give Him praise for things that He does on their behalf. I find this
to be narcissistic, callous, and completely immoral when I consider that at
least a dozen children under the age of 5 will have died during the course of
you reading my remarks here. They and their parents will beseech Heaven for
food and water and this same God who answers frivolous prayers somehow finds
these starving children unworthy. There is nothing humble about this line of
thinking.

I fail to see how the fact that our holy texts (regardless of how they have
been translated or cobbled together) have frequently been shown to be
incorrect is a flawed argument. An omniscient being should be able to explain
in unambiguous terms what it expects. No holy book fits that description.
Whether it is stopping the planetary motion of either our sun or our planet
for 24 hours to allow Joshua to finish his battle (Bible - Joshua 10:13) or
Muhammad splitting the moon (Qur'an - 54:1-2), these are cosmological claims
being made by our religions. I fail to see how my inability to read it in
Arabic somehow makes this scientifically possible.

If there is a conflict between religion and science, I get the feeling that
the author feels it's ok to reject the scientific account. The problem I have
with this is that unlike religion, science is not subjective. It has been the
most consistently reliable way for us to determine fact from fiction. When a
religious person disputes evolution in favor of creationism or asserts the
historicity of a prophet flying to Heaven on a winged horse, those are anti-
scientific views. Plain and simple.

Part III: This section basically deals with the author's desire to treat other
peoples' beliefs as sacred. As H. L. Mencken said, "We must respect the other
fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his
theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." What the author
fails to understand is that beliefs directly influence our actions. If the
creator of the universe commands us to kill people for imaginary crimes like
witchcraft, should we respect that belief (FYI - witch burnings still happen
in places like Kenya)? If someone wants a religious belief like creationism
taught alongside evolution in our classrooms, is the appropriate response one
of tolerance? Unlike Jesus, I don't think we should enact thought-crime
legislation, but if religious people cannot keep their unsubstantiated beliefs
in check, we must oblige them to.

~~~
Kapura
I'd prefer this discussion continue on this site rather than the other, if
you've no preference. ;)

>The value offered by religion has absolutely no bearing on the truthfulness
of the religion I don't disagree, but I argue that the value it offers is more
important than the absolute truth of every ideology. Faith, by definition,
transcends evidence. If that's not OK with you that's fine, but I also doubt
that every word you've ever uttered was the complete and total truth. Also if
you can causally link those statistics, I'd love to read it. But from where
I'm sitting, I see only correlation.

The fact that religion has been used to cover atrocities does not mean either
that they were caused by religion nor that they would not have happened
without religion. As evidence I point to atrocities divorced of religion.

I am not fit to debate the problem of evil, but my point again is that this
isn't a silver bullet for atheism. There are faiths or interpretations of
faith that circumvent the issue entirely, so I don't view it as an overly
effective argument.

I can't debate the aspects of the qur'an because I, you know, respect others'
beliefs, but for the Biblical aspect I'll quote something that another
commenter on hn brought up:

>Joseph Campbell: "These bits of information from ancient times [myths], which
have to do with the themes that have supported man's life, built
civilizations, informed religions over the millennia, have to do with deep
inner problems, inner mysteries, inner thresholds of passage. And if you don't
know what the guide signs are along the way you have to work it out yourself.
" >See
[http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/perspectives1.html](http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/perspectives1.html)
Very few people read the Bible literally. To pretend that they do is the
essence of strawmanning.

>I get the feeling that the author feels it's ok to reject the scientific
account N-no? Why would I think that. I don't defend people who deny
scientific fact. But again, it's fallacious to think that that represents the
whole, or even the majority, of religious folk.

>Unlike Jesus, I don't think we should enact thought-crime legislation Tipping
your hand a little bit there. I don't ever remember Jesus saying "Let's not
let others have freedom of thought."

Again, I DO NOT advocate ignoring science for the sake of religion. I never
said that, and your and others' persistent insinuation that I am saying this
is exactly the sort of behaviour that motivated me to write that in the first
place.

~~~
divinedefault
When you say "the value it offers is more important than the absolute truth of
every ideology", that is a subjective statement that could quite possibly be
impossible to quantify. You can argue it all you like, but in the end you're
stating your opinion. That's not an objective statement. How do you know that
the value is greater than the harm?

I do take issue with your statement that "Faith, by definition, transcends
evidence." A quick glance at Dictionary.com gives me a different definition
that states faith is "belief that is not based on proof". If faith, by your
definition, somehow transcends evidence, why should I respect that? In what
other area of our discourse is it not only permissible but actually desirable
to believe something strongly either in the absence of or in direct refutation
of evidence?

I agreed with you on the evil of men, but the point I was trying to make is
that religion does not seem to be a barrier to atrocities. A glance through
the pages of history is all that's needed to demonstrate this. Even the pope
in 2000 gave a mea culpa on atrocities committed by the Church in the course
of two millenia.

I found the passage from Campbell to be entertaining. Frankly, it's white
noise. What I find interesting about this and the suggestion that we shouldn't
read these texts literally is that you have somehow stumbled upon the
"correct" interpretation. Of course the universe wasn't created in six days.
Of course the sun didn't stand still in the sky for 24 hours. Of course God
didn't drown the entire world in a massive flood. Of course Jonah didn't
actually stay in the belly of a large fish. Are you saying that people
throughout history have never taken these stories literally or treated them as
historical facts? The truth is that as our knowledge of the world has
advanced, we now treat these stories as parables and metaphors. Allow me to
quote my earlier statement: "An omniscient being should be able to explain in
unambiguous terms what it expects. No holy book fits that description."

When we read in the Hadith (which has equal canonical authority to the Qur'an)
that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is death, are we to believe that
this is simply a metaphor? Are we taking it too literal? I contend that it's
either the will of God or it isn't. Perhaps Christianity is easier to discuss
for you. In the Christian faith, I can assure you that men like St Thomas
Aquinas and St Augustine had read Jesus' teachings in the New Testament along
with God's Old Testament commands to suffer not a witch to live, and they
found it completely appropriate to kill women for this imaginary crime. If
you're saying that God never meant Exodus 22:18 to be taken literally,
congratulations - because you've been able to correctly interpret this ancient
text in a way that some of the most venerated religious leaders could not.
Kudos to you.

I don't understand your "tipping your hand" comment, but I can address the
gist of your argument. Just because you don't ever remember Jesus enacting
thought-crime legislation doesn't negate my argument. Read the Sermon on the
Mount. When Jesus says that not just the physical act of adultery is against
the law, but that the thoughts leading up to it are just as immoral and
against the law, that is the very essence of thought-crime legislation. No?

Having read your opinions and responded to them, I am inclined to agree with
an earlier poster who doubted your atheistic standing. "Beware of false
prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are
ravening wolves."

~~~
Kapura
I'm disinclined to continue responding if you continue _BELIEVING_ that I am
lying to you about the _FACT_ that I am an atheist, that I have no religion,
that I don't believe in God. If you presume that I am so wrong on every point
that I don't even know my own religious beliefs, is there even any point for
me to continue this discussion?

I love discussing these sorts of issues because I loving finding a point on
which we can agree, even if we just agree that it's a difference of opinion.
But I'm not convinced that it'd be worth either of our times to continue if
that goal is impossible.

~~~
al1x
If you really are an atheist you've taken this whole idea of "open-mindedness"
way too far and let a slough of nonsense overwhelm your rational
sensibilities. Stop trying to be "ok" with everyone and everything. It's
foolishness. There are truly fucked up people in this world with truly fucked
up beliefs. You don't need to be "ok" with them. You need to confront them and
help educate them. Fight ignorance, don't condone it. Help make the world a
better place. If you have nothing to say in response to divinedefault, fine.
But there's no reason to storm off in a huff and refuse further dialogue
because he questions the authenticity of some of your claims. I doubted them
too. Be a man. Deal with it. Get over it. Continue the dialogue if you can. If
you can't, keep processing what he's said. He took a lot of time and spent a
lot of effort replying to your blog post. You owe him more than this "I'M NOT
TALKING TO YOU ANYMORE" nonsense.

~~~
divinedefault
Each of my arguments is clearly outlined in the aptly titled book "The Divine
Default".

------
mattkrea
My first comment here (as an Atheist) would have to do with the fact that:

If you believe in the Christian "creation" story you don't believe that the
world is 4.5 billion (give or take a few hundred) years old. This would be a
fairly significant problem for someone calling himself or herself a scientist
yet while being a religious person.

The bigger thing for me is that I see no facts surrounding it. So, I see
people that I know taking this on faith and that, to me, is a fundamental flaw
in their thinking.

I think most people out there understand why religion exists and I agree with
many of your points here but I still believe that it is fundamentally wrong.

Humans used to believe lightning and fire was caused by a god until we
understood what actually caused it. Give it a few thousands years and I think
we'll be much further along.

This is not to say that I go out of my way to attack it but I surely will
fight if someone presses it on me.

~~~
russellsprouts
But you don't have to believe in the literal Christian creation story 7000
years ago. Most lines of Christian thought allowed for non-literal accounts as
far back as the first century A.D.

~~~
mattkrea
Believe me I'm aware of that. I always sort of felt that picking and choosing
the parts of a religion in which you believe is almost worst, however.

~~~
xherberta
The Hebrew term "Yom" translated "day" is mentioned before the sun and moon.

Also, there's an unspecified amount of time between Genesis 1:1, when "God
created the heavens and the earth" and 1:2, which says "But the earth became
waste and emptiness."

These two clues tell me the text is not meant to offer any information about
dates and times.

------
al1x
This post is absurd. People attack religion "to feel superior than others and
therefore feel better about themselves"? What about the fact that religion is
a dangerous evil whose existence threatens the very future of humanity? What
about the "minor" fact that the religious majority control politically the
largest superpower in the world? What about the fact that religion shapes
public policy in ways detrimental to scientific advancement and societal
progress? What about the fact that religion encourages ignorance and
complacency and opposes the idea of self reliance? What about the fact that it
lacks any form of empirical evidence despite making claims to?

But I'm supposed to forget about all of that because of "community". It's
somehow a GOOD thing that ignorant birds of a feather flock together? It's
somehow a GOOD thing that the scientifically illiterate majority control the
public policy of the largest superpower in the world?

But I'm supposed to forget all of that because it "makes them happy"? That
their ignorance is bliss? That simpleminded people don't suffer existential
angst? That having a book that makes up answers to all of life's questions
instead of providing anything remotely approaching anything empirical is
somehow "comforting"?

But I'm supposed to forget all of that because religion has been around since
all of recorded human history.. and that that is somehow significant?

Go ahead max, dismiss the critics by forgetting that the Crusades was entirely
motivated by religion, dismiss the philosophical problem of evil because you
think you've found a satisfactory answer to it, dismiss the fact that the
Bible is riddled with factual and historical inaccuracies, dismiss religion's
blatant disregard for Science Fact because "people are inconsistent about
their beliefs all the time" (because that's such a good reason). ...and by all
means, continue making spectacularly ignorant blog posts and don't both
enabling comments because, heaven forbid, someone might call you out on your
nonsense and set you straight.

Stay in school, Max, and keep thinking through these things. You've got a ways
to go.

~~~
Kapura
I don't know your first name, but I'll call you Alex (al1x ~= alix ~= Alex).
Thanks for responding Alex. I'm glad that you have. You've brought up a number
of points which I'd like to address.

1) You say "religion is a dangerous evil whose existence threatens the very
future of humanity." This seems, at best, blowing something way out of
proportion. In fact, you make a whole shitload of biased, uncited claims in
your first paragraph. I struggled with getting the right balance between
outside sources and personal stream of my own thoughts, but I think if you're
going to categorise faith as an existential threat to humanity you're going to
need to prove it a little bit more than just, you know, fearmongering.

2) If you don't see the power of a community, I cannot help you. To me, the
happiest people have always been in a supportive group, generally focused
around central beliefs. Whether it's groups of coders hanging out after work
or weeaboos watching new animes together, a community seems a core component
of happiness, and I view more people having a deep, personal happiness as more
important than crushing faith. Then again, I don't see religion as a threat to
the human race, so if you can prove (or argue compellingly) for your first
point, I may have to reconsider this one.

3) Everybody always says that The Crusades were entirely motivated by
religion. That is foolish; I would argue that it was another war fought for
the same reason that every war has ever been fought: for power. But in this
war, one of the parties was behind a flag of religious righteousness. I will
again point to the fact that a bunch of people have killed, many, many more
people in cases entirely devoid of religious ideologies. How many people died
during the crusades? Was it less than 40 million? I did a little bit of
googling, and it seems to be way less than 40 million, so it still pales in
comparison to Mao or Genghis Kahn.

4) I didn't disable comments. I don't know if Medium has comments, but this is
the correct forum for airing comments; that's why I posted it to hn in the
first place. I've also written about the folly of allowing comments, but given
your reception to this piece, I'm hesitant to link something else that might
raise your blood pressure even further.

Regards, -max golden

~~~
al1x
> 1) You say "religion is a dangerous evil whose existence threatens the very
> future of humanity." This seems, at best, blowing something way out of
> proportion.

You must not live in the US, must not be aware of how religion influences
scientific research, and must not pay much attention to the news.

> In fact, you make a whole shitload of biased, uncited claims in your first
> paragraph. ...fearmongering.

This is so typical of HN. Disagree? No problem. Dismiss everything said with a
"citation needed". Your entire blog post was an uncited claim. But I'm not
going to even bother making that a point of contention. This game is juvenile,
especially on matters of common knowledge. Only a jackass walks around saying
"citation needed" to every claim someone makes. Re: fearmongering, is this
some kind of joke? Are you really questioning that the religious majority
controls politically the United States? Are you really questioning that
religion shapes public policy in ways detrimental to scientific advancement
and societal progress? Do you really think the ideas behind the second coming
of Christ encourage self reliance as opposed to say extreme apathy, since
their Lord and Savior will soon descend from heaven to judge, condemn, and
then magically fix all the problems of the world for us, creating an eternal
paradise for all believers? Are you really unaware of the common objection to
climate change among Christians in America that climate change is bogus
because "God wouldn't let that happen"? Do you really contest my assertion
that religion lacks empirical evidence? Have you yourself seen signs, wonders,
and miracles on the order of Biblical proportions? Do you often see water
turned to wine, great waters parted on command, the sick healed and the dead
raised? Because those are the claims of Christianity.

> If you don't see the power of a community, I cannot help you

I never said community wasn't a great thing, I only said, in so many words,
that a community based on ignorance and nonsense is not a net "good". Do you
argue that the "community" created around Hitler's ideologies was a net
"good"? That's absurd. Not everything that unites is good.

> I would argue that it was another war fought for the same reason that every
> war has ever been fought: for power

Right. Except, of course, that you're wrong.

> How many people died during the crusades? Was it less than 40 million? I did
> a little bit of googling, and it seems to be way less than 40 million, so it
> still pales in comparison to Mao or Genghis Kahn.

Do you really think it somehow makes what happened during the Crusades any
better? Your point is completely irrelevant. If religion did not exist those
tens of millions of people would not have been killed. That's the only thing
that matters.

------
fein
"But ultimately, I feel, there is no satisfying answer to this question
outside of religions."

*in regards to the "What is our purpose" question.

This has always been why I've been guilty of treating religious folk like
special needs children on occasion. I don't think that religion's answer for
that question is any more satisfying than ignorance. It feels like a huge life
shortcut that doesn't help with the problem. Any time the answer is "Because
God", it just means that the buck stops there, and no more thought occurs. How
are we ever going to answer any of these important questions if we never
devote time to thinking about them?

~~~
Kapura
That's a more than valid point. If you allow your faith to stifle scientific
thought, you are at fault. But I truly feel that there are questions that tear
at the heart of a person, like "what is my purpose" that no amount of science
can answer. If you're able to answer that question internally, that's
wonderful, but not everybody can. I think that if we can get past this
question, we can get onto more important ones (or at least ones we are better
equipped to answer).

In essence, though, you are correct: a person who allows their beliefs to
stifle acquisition of further knowledge is not a person deserving of respect.

------
xherberta
I commend you. Thank you for the large-minded, logical, and compassionate
analysis.

I get what divinedefault meant about thought crimes. I think (s)he refers to
Jesus' bit about lust in the heart being equal to adultery, and calling
someone a fool being equal to murder. I think Jesus was pointing out that
there are crimes in everyone's thoughts. He was talking to ultra-religious
law-keeping bigots who thought they were better than everybody.

------
hsmyers
Reasonable article. In support:

Joseph Campbell: "These bits of information from ancient times [myths], which
have to do with the themes that have supported man's life, built
civilizations, informed religions over the millennia, have to do with deep
inner problems, inner mysteries, inner thresholds of passage. And if you don't
know what the guide signs are along the way you have to work it out yourself.
"

See
[http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/perspectives1.html](http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/perspectives1.html)

~~~
ada1981
Came here to reference Campbell as well.. Campbell said the problem is that
most people don't know what a metaphor is. Myth is metaphor -- so they don't
understand it. Theists read the bible and say this is literally true. Atheists
read it and say this is false, it's a lie. Agnostics read it and say, not
sure.. But the transcendent perspective is to see that "God" is a Myth, not a
lie. God is a myth that represents the unknowable ground of your being, and
the religions are a mythology designed to aid your ego on it's journey of self
discovery and guide society. Myth is a mirror for the ego with a schedule on
it - it shows you where you are. The literalists will be hard pressed to have
the spiritual salvation they seek without knowing what a metaphor is -- they
will be stuck looking outside themselves when the God they seek is within --
the mythologies are designed to help find it.

