
Quebec reaches lodging tax deal with Airbnb - qazwse_
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-airbnb-hotel-tax-1.4266355
======
frandroid
The "one host, one home" deal is a much better way to deal with the downsides
of Airbnb: [https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/06/19/toronto-
to...](https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/06/19/toronto-to-move-
forward-with-proposed-rules-on-airbnb-style-rentals.html)

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
This seems like an actual reasonable solution to the problem that makes most
people happy. Where is this sanity coming from?

~~~
gf263
Canada.

------
majjam
A concern I haven't seen raised as much with AirBnb is the erosion of
communities. It is ironic that tourists wish to visit cities for their culture
(Berlin, Amsterdam etc.) but that by removing housing stock, there will be
fewer and fewer locals left, for example in Edinburgh's grassmarket, entire
tenements are now short term lets. Cities then just become pretty museums.

~~~
fish_fan
I mean, is this so bad? It also implies novel communities are forming
elsewhere; perhaps you're viewing this from a perspective on the past when the
one on the future may be more relevant.

I say this as someone who hates AirBnB and high rent prices in cities.

~~~
frandroid
The community that get uprooted from one neighbourhood doesn't reform in a new
sui generis neighbourhood in the city to reconstitute itself whole; its
members get scattered across the city. In Toronto's Kensington Market
neighbourhood, in a 5 by 5 street area, there are somewhere around 250 airbnb
units available, and the area is turning from a traditional market into a bar
and restaurant area. The residents are pushed away and the local merchants are
pushed away.

~~~
52-6F-62
Is Kensington really getting that bad? I haven't been down there in a little
while, but my girlfriend still seemed to think it was going well there. She
rarely goes herself, though.

That said I rent long-term (nearing a 1/2 years) in Liberty Village (Ha! I
cannot afford to buy in this city) and my building seems to be half Airbnb
units. I run into more people with luggage coming and going than I see actual
residents. The faces are always changing except for the smallest set...

~~~
frandroid
The neighbourhood is still a lot of fun, but there are fewer merchants now
then when I moved to Toronto in the early 2000s. There used to be 3
fishmongers, now there is only one; there's about 3 produce stores left, there
used to be many more. A bunch of knick knack stores have closed. Back when I
moved here, there were two (!) separate anarchist spaces; there hasn't been
any in years now. On the upside, it's becoming the veg*n restaurant quarter of
the city...

~~~
dx034
This development is probably unrelated to AirBnB. People go to big
supermarkets or shop online instead of going to specialised merchants (e.g.
fishmongers). Small stores have been dying since a decade in most European and
North American cities.

~~~
52-6F-62
It's funny you bring that up, though. Farmer's markets have, on the other
hand, seen a recent surge -- possibly even correlating with the decline of
smaller produce, dairy, and other vendors. There's one at least once a week in
every neighbourhood just about (still speaking Toronto).

------
j15e
They just sent an email to their customers in Québec and they specify they
will not share reservation and owner details to the government, only a summary
per region per month.

So the is no extra power to Revenu Québec to find out you don't report all
your earnings.

The fact they sent (french) :

Partagerez-vous mes informations personnelles lors du versement de la taxe ?
Non. Nous remplirons une déclaration fiscale par région, qui indiquera le
montant total des revenus issus de l'ensemble des réservations Airbnb
effectuées dans la zone en question. Autrement dit, tous les hôtes seront
représentés par un même montant, et nous ne fournirons pas vos informations
personnelles sur la déclaration.

~~~
frandroid
Merci.

------
naskwo
Background: I am the founder of the rental largest housing site in NL
(Kamernet.nl)

I believe that Spain (Barcelona, Ibiza) already have rules in place that limit
the possibility of renting out accommodations and require a local license.

The first step for any locale is to establish policy and rules in this "new
normal" situation where renting out property (and leveraging tourism) has
become very easy and painless. Rules that are enforceable, with sanctions
strong enough to limit abuse.

Next, the local governments should be in their right to ask for verifiable
users of the platform, but equally of people who advertise in paper media. At
the end of the day, a public db with some form of API should be set up by the
local government. This db is freely (as in beer) accessible to all housing
platforms to check that OAuth(SSN+property id+number of beds) indeed has a
permit. Even a calendar could be added (in Amsterdam, the limit is 60 nights
per year per house or host / not sure).

?

------
abuteau
They did the same with Uber [https://www.uber.com/en-CA/drive/montreal/get-
started/tax-re...](https://www.uber.com/en-CA/drive/montreal/get-started/tax-
registration/)

------
j15e
The most interesting thing for me will be that we be that the governement (and
maybe us too) will be able to know much more precisely how much Airbnb renting
is going on in the province and possibly where & when too.

~~~
frandroid
It's mostly a double-tax grab: 1st, the hospitality tax, and 2nd, when Revenue
Québec goes after hosts' undeclared income. This will have the effect to
dissuade the small hosts due to government harassment, while the larger hosts
will pay the income tax and still make bank. Exactly the outcome that is
undesirable.

~~~
camus2
> This will have the effect to dissuade the small hosts due to government
> harassment

If you consider following the law "government harassment", then your comment
makes sense. But I'm pretty sure not declaring a commercial activity is
illegal and not declaring revenue from that activity is called tax evasion,
Airbnb or not.

~~~
Spivak
I can barely see you up on that high horse. There are so many ways of making
money that people don't report. Do you report the interest on your savings
account? The idea that a person should feel a some sort of duty to report the
money they made renting out their house for a few weekends a year is absurd --
and a government that goes after their citizens for such a pittance has missed
the forest for the trees.

~~~
awa
afaik, most people do report interest from savings account. In US, The bank
sends a 1099-int to you and the IRS if interest earned>$10

~~~
slavik81
In Canada the threshold is $50 for receiving a T5. You are, of course, still
obligated to report it even if you don't get a form.

I actually do bother to look that stuff up each year, but I suspect that many
Canadians do not if they don't receive a form.

------
sien
It's great to see local and state government coming to a sensible deal with
AirBnB and also with Uber.

It should be a model for how to handle these things. Some light oversight and
some tax, but not caving in to extant rent seekers like taxi plate owners and
hotel chain owners.

~~~
Spivak
I'm sorry, what? I get that Airbnb allows individuals to list their own
properties but if we're being honest in a couple years the majority of Airbnb
property owners are going to be precisely those existing rent seekers who have
found a way to operate basically small expensive hotels in areas where
commercial zoning is expensive.

It's really isn't going to change much in the long run. It's just a de-facto
commercial zoning grant to all residential areas. It's going to decrease the
pool of available properties for long-term residents and raise the rents for
those residents because every property manager is going to have to decide
whether they think they could make more money by renting to an individual
long-term or by just perpetually listing on Airbnb.

This really isn't a victory for anybody but Airbnb and existing property
managers.

~~~
sien
And the vast number of consumers who get to get a cheaper place in many more
areas than the could before.

Literally millions of people.

Saying that the only benefit of AirBnB goes to owners is like saying the only
benefit of Ebay goes to sellers.

You hit the bigger problem that has made housing incredibly expensive in the
Bay Area, London, Sydney and other places.

Overly restrictive Zoning.

~~~
Tiktaalik
Sometimes restrictive zoning exists for good reason.

For example I'm sure there is no interest from Montreal residents in tearing
down Old Montreal and building taller, and denser buildings.

In such heritage areas Airbnb can have a real negative impact as tourist use
can displace what would otherwise be a normal, functional neighbourhood.

------
tzury
This is simply great!

It means Air BnB can scale even more, take savvy incorporated entrepreneurs in
the field for example. They can even pretend to be a private home holders..
Now it is all in the books, reported and regulated.

------
fiatjaf
Now it is the opportunity for an Airbnb competitor to appear. I can only hope
that.

~~~
isostatic
Holiday cottages have been rentable for decades - my family used to get
brochures for them in the 80s, we stayed in Cornish villages for 2 weeks a
year when we had the dogs.

These still continue - I used cottages.com to rent a cottage in Wales last
week. That tourism is what drives the local economy.

Sites like that (others are available) have city locations too, I've used
similar sites to book in Rome and Berlin

Air bnb's key feature, like uber, is its global reach. I've used uber on 6
continents because it's always the same. I don't use it in some locations due
to safety considerations, but in most cities it's far easier and nicer
(compare an uber with a manhattan cab where you are force fed adverts and have
to "tip" a driver who probably won't even take a credit card.

I've never risked airbnb stay though - came close when I spent a month in
singapore, but too many horror stories, and I had my family with me. Didn't
want to have the police evicting us in the middle of the night 2 weeks in,
found a proper managed appartment. Singapore really doesn't like airbnb as
most housing is government owned (to keep prices affordable), and you have to
be a citizen to live there. Prevents the country turning into something
horrible like Dubai.

------
miguelrochefort
Why is Quebec always doing things differently?

\- Airbnb and Uber hostility

\- Dairy cartel

\- Language police

\- World Nomads (travel insurance) exclusion

\- Contests exclusion

\- Worst ER wait times

\- ...

~~~
onorton
I would assume the French influence. Difference between common law and a civil
code.

