
A breakdown of how I was talked out of $100 - dskang
http://dskang.com/post/35828532133/a-breakdown-of-how-i-was-talked-out-of-100
======
tzs
Even better than talking someone out of money is to get them to pay you
without even knowing they are paying. A landlord I rented from once did this
with the rent, managing to raise rents with most tenants not noticing.

Here's how they did it. Rent was $550/month with a one year lease, which works
out to $6600/year.

When the least expired, you had the option of going month to month, or signing
another lease. Month to month would be $600/month ($7200/year). However, they
said, if you'll sign another one year lease, they'll let you keep the old rate
($6600/year), which will be implemented by giving you one month free. That is,
you'll pay $0 for January, then $600/month for the remaining 11 months of the
year, bringing the total to $6600/year.

A year later, when it was time to renew again, they told people rent would
probably be going up soon, but if they renewed now for another year, they
could avoid the increase and just keep paying $600/month.

Since that is what people were already paying, most did not see this as a rent
increase. Yet they would be paying $7200 for the year, as opposed to $6600 for
the year before--a $600 increase--because this time there was no free month
for signing the lease.

~~~
danger
So this strategy is really only effective when you'd like to raise rent by
9.1% per year?

~~~
FireBeyond
Realize that in many areas, rental increases have legislated maximums, or
increased notice periods for any raise above a certain percentage. This is a
cunning way around that.

~~~
trhtrsh
No it's not. Discounts are still governed by rent laws.

It's just a standard 1-month free signup discount followed by annual
increases.

------
anonymouz
> I was masterfully manipulated, and I have little choice but to admit that I
> received an unexpectedly expensive lesson in the art of selling.

How would you be sure it was that masterful? From your description it sounds
pretty much like a standard sales pitch. It could just as well be that you're
simply rationalizing being talked into spending $100 on something you didn't
want to buy. You seem to be thinking "He was so good, he even managed to get
me to buy this stuff", but the truth may unfortunately just as well be "Gee, I
fall for this kind of stuff much more easily than I would have liked/thought".

Doing a postmortem of such a sales-pitch as a target yourself seems to be
loaded with subjectivity problems.

~~~
gxs
I have to agree here. By the author's own admission, he does most of his
shopping online - which tells me he lacks practice in dealing with salesmen.

I worked as a bartender/server at a corporate restaurant when I was in
college. You would be surprised how easily people will do something if you
just tell them. Me: Order a margarita. Customer: OK.

And not to get too judgmental, but this is especially true with the
stereotypical internet dweller. For some reason Ive come to notice that people
of this ilk are less likely to say no for fear of offending/not pleasing
someone.

~~~
meric
>> Me: Order a margarita. Customer: OK.

I'd say "OK" too. One of my problems going into a restaurant is I don't know
what the restaurant is good at making; I used to make the mistake of ordering
stuff the restaurant hasn't made in weeks and it tastes horrible.

If the waiter/waitress was going to recommend me something, its unlikely
something the restaurant was especially _bad_ at making, and it would solve
part of my problem, and so I'll accept his/her recommendation.

~~~
gadders
It'll be whatever is on special/they have been asked to push by the owner.

I think this was discussed in Kitchen Confidential in terms of food.

~~~
rgee
If it's crap or ridiculously overpriced, they'll pay for it in the tip anyway.

------
robomartin
Your first mistake was to let an Israeli sell to you.

That's where you lost brother. For that matter, I'll expand that to Middle-
Eastern. I have a lot of friends from Israel and some from other ME countries.
A lot of them tend to be very good at selling. I never got to the bottom of
it. Maybe it's something in the water? I don't know.

I've gone on sales calls with Israeli friends (yes, as an engineer I decided I
needed sales training from the best when it came time to sell my own
products). We used to play this game that we loosely referred to "Shut-up and
sell something". The idea was to see how little you could say and still close
a deal. In my early days I tended to talk too much. And, as an engineer, I'd
get lost in long explorations of features and even stuff we were planning on
doing. I'd loose sales right and left. Then came "shut-up and make a sale". It
is amazing how sometimes you can say absolutely nothing. Zero. And make a
bigger sale than when you start flapping your jaws. The art is in knowing when
to speak and when no to.

Hey you! Yes you. The one reading this thinking that it is a pejorative
comment. Stop it! It isn't. It's more of a compliment than anything else.

~~~
unreal37
I visited Istanbul earlier this year, and it amazed me how bargaining and
selling was so ingrained in the culture. Every store, every restaurant, even
the hotel... it's just a different way of dealing with customers.

And here in Canada/USA, some stores have sales people that don't want to
disturb you. They sit quietly in their chair in the back of the store, don't
dare approach you, and don't speak until spoken to. That's not sales, that's
"question answerer".

Real sales has an active component.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Uhm, try that "active component" in Germany. Even Walmart greeters make them
nervous.

I dislike going to places where people work on commissions unless I'm really
sure about what I'm getting; information asymmetry combined with a party out
to get you for all they can is a bad combo. So those guys at the back of the
mall store ignoring me is perfectly fine!

~~~
gadders
I had a colleague that was trying to buy an expensive stereo in a store in
Zurich once. He was just about to choose the model when a bell rang.

"I am sorry, it is 5pm. You must leave the store now."

------
jeremymcanally
Reading this and the subsequent comments, I have to ask: am I the only one
immune to the this sort of thing? I get approached by these kiosk workers all
the time while shopping, and I simply wave and keep walking (possibly
reinforcing with a "No, thank you" if they follow me down the path, as they
sometimes do). I know it's a high pressure tactic. I know they're selling
something that no one actually needs. I know if I give them an inch of
attention they'll try to take a mile. It's a well known sales tactic, so I'm
puzzled why people continue to get sucked into it.

I'm actually kind of confused why this warrants a post-mortem given that I
would hope that no one ever duplicates this sort of tactic in a legitimate
business. Let the product sell itself, don't "become the customer's friend" in
order to push it on them.

~~~
Dove
_am I the only one immune to the this sort of thing?_

I don't know, I feel that way, too. I've been through long sales pitches, mall
workers, even TV commercials . . . and I'm pretty sure the emotions I feel are
not the ones they intend me to feel.

When I hear friendly pleasantries or "This is a special deal just for you" or
"I just marked down the price 50%" or "Super exclusive supreme top-of-the-line
product" or whatever, I'm supposed to feel . . . I don't know, flattered?
Excited by the opportunity? That's not what I feel. What I feel is more like,
"Don't insult my intelligence, you jerk." And maybe a little, "Don't pressure
me to make a decision with insufficient research. Jerk."

I don't know, I generally like to think the best of people, but every time
I've interacted with a salesperson, I've spent the entire conversation with
the forceful emotional impression that they were insulting me and trying to
take advantage of me. And I never buy anything from them.

~~~
barrkel
My reaction is more along the lines that if the company is paying so much
commission etc. to force the product down my throat, there has to be an
alternative elsewhere with lower overheads and consequently better value (and
not even necessarily cheaper, just lower ratio of sales:product).

------
kitcar
The one additional (and arguably most powerful) sales tactic you experienced
was playing with most human's natural desire for reciprocation - the longer he
keeps you at that booth, the more of his time you have consumed, and therefore
the higher probability that you will actually buy something.

I know I've found myself buying things I don't need in the past because a
sales person spent lots of time with me, and I thought "Well, I should reward
them in some way for all this time they have given me!", when in reality,
that's the whole point of them spending time with me in the first place :)

~~~
misterbwong
The book INFLUENCE does a good job of categorizing and explaining these
factors. Though a lot of it comes off as common sense, I never realized how
widespread these tactics were until I read this book. I highly recommend it.

[http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-
Busine...](http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Business-
Essentials/dp/006124189X)

~~~
tripzilch
This book is great. Enjoyable anecdotes, and I also like his take on the
subject: Every chapter, first Cialdini explains a particular phenomenon as a
sort of "exploit" or flaw in the human mind, and then discusses how to protect
yourself against it. Instead of framing it as ways how to sucker people.

The book also has an interesting statistic (IIRC in the chapter about cutting
in line for a photo-copier) of people that were first interviewed whether they
thought they'd fall for (an abstract explanation of) the trick, who were then
(unknowingly, as a set up psych experiment) exposed to a real-life situation
playing that exact trick.

The percentage of people that were confident they wouldn't fall for it, but
then in a real-life situation did, was surprisingly high. I don't remember how
high exactly (maybe someone who's also read it can fill me in here?), but it
was enough to seriously question my own confidence (in not being affected by
certain human flaws), and make an effort in being extra conscious about that
even when I rationalize myself to be immune (which seemed to be a common theme
in defence tactics).

Not so much even to avoid being suckered or allowing people to cut in line,
but especially after the chapter on Kitty Genovese type tragedies (aka "the
bystander effect"). That chapter btw has a bunch of more specific defence
tactics such as singling out people and talking to them directly instead of to
a group (even if you feel you're not qualified or whatever to be the hero, you
can always say "You, sir, in the blue jacket, you seem strong enough, please
jump in the water and save that person!", which may feel cowardly but if it
helps breaking the "bystander spell" and someone's life being saved, what the
fuck does it matter?)

------
harel
As a former resident of Israel I kinda know those people. They are there to do
their 'hit' before settling back to 'normal' life. The brief they get is
"sell". There are companies that specialise in getting young folk to the US
and Europe to sell those product. They promise them the world and a silly
salary. The reality is that the salary doesn't translate to the figures
promised unless you actually sell like you life depends on it. So they do just
that. The dead sea stuff is just one type of product, manufactured by
nondescript factories and arguably not so 'dead sea'. There are others who go
door to door selling 'made in china' oil paintings that they claim to be the
artist of. Others sell gadgets in malls. Others sell whatever they sell. The
techniques are similar and they are controlled by a few companies. There are
even ads where they recruit based on having a US tourist visa alone (i.e.,
work illegaly until caught). This got so worst that the US embassy created a
short film warning young Israelis of that scam, and the airports in London
will hold any young Israeli coming in on suspicion of being a mall-stall
fodder. Sorry for the guy on loosing $100 worth of chemicals that cost the
seller about $4 to procure (I know this because, alas, my brother from the
same mother has dabbled in this in the past). You've been had buyer of
cosmetics. The best way to go about it, and a lesson to future cosmetic buyers
as this poster, is that you buy if you initiate the purchase, not if it
initiated upon you.

~~~
abuzzooz
I was once in a mall, around noonish, when all of a sudden I saw a group of
those Israeli sellers quickly close their two carts and run outside. Turns out
that ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) agents were in the mall looking
for them.

A couple of hours later, they came back and resumed working as if nothing
happened.

------
axusgrad
I took his advice and Googled "Dead Sea Cosmetics". Apparently one of the
WikiLeaks diplomatic cables had details about a company exploiting young
Israelis, to take tourist visas and sell these cosmetics in malls.

[http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5519017/WikiLeaks-delves-
int...](http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5519017/WikiLeaks-delves-into-Dead-
Sea-sales-scam)

~~~
s_henry_paulson
It goes deeper than that. As soon as I read "skin care products at the mall" I
immediately thought, "I wonder if the sales person was from Israel". I
honestly didn't think I would see that addressed.

Do you remember those Zoom Copters that used to be in every single mall across
America?

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJyCAZGRpf8>

~~~
chimeracoder
Wow, it's not every day that someone can get personal sales lessons from a
potential spy! ;-)

------
funkaster
I was approached by the same sellers in a mall. I got the exact same samples
of "dead cells" cream. It was a lady the one that gave me the samples. Very
convincing. If it wasn't because I was with my wife at the time, who happens
to be a person that does not bend to that kind of selling techniques (I call
it her super-power :P) I would've walked with $100 less, at least.

One bad thing about this selling technique, which might be effective in
selling you stuff, is that right after walking out, you feel bad. You know you
did not do the right choice and the probabilities of you walking again to buy
more stuff from them or telling your friends how awesome these products are is
so small, that they seem to aim to one-sell only. Maybe that's why they're so
expensive: they know you're not going back for more. It's a cheap technique
and it probably is not looking for anything long term... But in any case, you
can always move to another mall or create a new crappy-good-looking product to
scam more people.

------
ericdykstra
If you want information from a salesperson about a product or service without
getting into their "selling" mode. Just come up to them and say, right off the
bat, "I'm not considering a purchase of this kind for at least 1/3/6 months,
but I have a couple of questions about your product."

If it's a bad product or bad salesperson, they'll probably end the
conversation quickly, because their whole premise is to catch you off guard
and convince you to buy something that you never would if you had 30 seconds
to search the internet for reviews.

If it's a good product and a good salesperson, they'll gladly answer your
questions and give you a business card. Then you can verify their claims
later, and you have a somewhat-trusted contact that you can go back to.

It's a quick way to filter, even if you know you may end up purchasing the
product within a couple of days.

This tactic is also a way to quickly stop a potential email conversation with
a recruiter, while still being able to have them as a connection. "I'm sorry
but I'm definitely not changing jobs for at least 6 months, but thank you for
reaching out to me," is enough to do this.

~~~
zevyoura
>This tactic is also a way to quickly stop a potential email conversation with
a recruiter, while still being able to have them as a connection.

Why do you want random recruiters as connections? This not sarcastic; it's a
sincere question.

~~~
rdl
Genuinely random recruiters, no, but if you might be hiring for something
outside of your personal skill set, it's worth having connections with
recruiters in _those_ fields, if you may do a startup in the future.

I'd have a hard time hiring great enterprise sales people on my own; it's
worth it for me to talk to enterprise sales recruiters infrequently and to
seek out great enterprise sales managers as contacts.

Same for finance people, etc.

------
flatline
People in the US don't know how to haggle, it's just not part of our culture,
so you were done from the second you started talking to him. The first step is
learning to walk away from something like this - something that may be nice to
have, but that you don't really want. You should have given up when he talked
you down to $100 for the lot. Seriously, you didn't need or even want the
product, why buy it? There is a decent chance he would have come after you and
dropped the price though -- that's the first sign you can start talking
seriously about price, everything before that is pure profit for him. And if
he didn't chase you down, you're not out anything, and can come by later and
see if he'll take a lower offer. I've walked away from vendors like this not
once but twice and gotten a price at a _quarter_ of what was originally
offered as the lowest possible price.

The opportunity to do this kind of bargaining just comes up so rarely, it's
hard to get good at it unless you spend time in developing countries. The much
harder skill is to be able to do this for something you really want, something
you've already made up your mind to purchase. Which is a shame, since this
particular skill does come into play all the time in the US, particularly when
it comes to big purchases like cars or houses where bargaining is expected. We
have a weird culture.

~~~
jakejake
I'd definitely agree that America is not a real haggling culture for day-to-
day shopping. But most of us are pretty used to pitchmen wanting our money.

This seems like to OP just wanted to be sold on something to observe sales
techniques. Had he really never talked to a vendor before? Did he actually
forget what he was doing and get caught up in the moment, or was this the
outcome he was planning all along? Hard to say.

------
PaulHoule
I had this happen at the mall that's a few blocks from Union Square in SF.

For me it was a guy who tried to sell me $800 of tooth whitening services and
ultimately sold me two tubes of toothpaste for $20. Once he got me to sit in
his chair and talk about myself he hung on tenaciously. It was clear he had
authority to mark prices down to 25% of the first price he gave and he'd give
you half of that off in cash and give you the other half by doubling the
product on you.

I was shocked when I walked away then the next guy asked me if I knew about
the dead sea salts and I told him "Yeah, some guy put them on my hand in the
mall years ago and it felt great but then 15 minutes later my hands felt dried
out and awful."

You might say the guy from White Science is a brilliant salesperson, but if
you look at Yelp you'll see people are generally not happy with the products
and services that they get there.

~~~
Mystitat
That's the Westfield. Same mall as in OP's story.

------
intellegacy
In my observation, people who believe they are not susceptible to advertising
or sales pitches are actually more susceptible than they otherwise would be.
If you don't acknowledge you can be influenced, you're less likely to notice
when you ARE being influenced. And you don't have to be hit on the head by a
sales tactic to be influenced either. It often comes in subtle ways.

~~~
TillE
I can certainly point to instances where I've been seriously influenced by
sales tactics, though they're usually situations where I was already looking
for a certain type of product or service.

But in-person, like this? I'd think most people who live in major cities have
become immune to approaches from random people - scammers, beggars, whatever.
(Except for people selling the homeless newspaper, they're cool.)

If someone requests my attention and they're not asking a normal person
question (like directions), I don't engage with them. Sorry. End of
interaction, I have no interest in your crap, I have other things to do.

------
thisone
Sales guy tried to embarrass my boyfriend into buying a huge watch once by
questioning his manhood. "A real man can carry off a watch like this"

I burst out laughing and asked the salesman, in no uncertain terms, if he
would like to borrow my tape measure.

~~~
robflynn
I was searching for a new car about seven years ago. I talked to a few
dealerships but was uncertain exactly what I wanted. I just wanted to shop
around a bit and see what was on the market since I hadn't really paid
attention to new cars in a while. I left my phone number with a couple places
and had instructed them to call me if a specific car that I was looking for
came in.

About a week later, I was out of town at a funeral. My phone buzzed (vibrate
mode) and I glanced at the number and realized it was one of the car
dealerships. I clicked the button to send the call to voice mail and then shut
my phone off since the buzzing was distracting.

After I left, I checked my voice mail only to find that the sales guy seemed
offended by my sending him to the voice mail box. He yelled at me and
questioned my manhood - "Oh, so you're not a real man, I see! A real man talks
to somebody. A real man doesn't just avoid calls."

I couldn't believe he did that. I went back to the dealership after I got back
into town and got ahold of a manager. I had him bring the sales guy over too.
I played the voice mail for both of them and then told the sales guy that "a
real man deals with the consequences of his actions."

He lost his job that day.

I apologize, as was off topic. Your comment brought bake that memory and made
me rage a bit so I figured I'd post it up as another example of a poorly
attempted manhood-questioning sales technique.

~~~
cerebrum
> He lost his job that day.

How do you know that? I think it's silly to go back there just because of a
voice mail...

~~~
jerf
Today, it's a customer who is so pissed off that he brought in his cell phone
and went out of his way to call you over and play it for you.

Tomorrow, it's the local ABC/NBC/CBS affiliate hungry to fill their "Tonight,
We Fight For You!" consumer protection segment asking you for response (five
minutes before air so they can say you didn't respond when asked), because the
next customer just went straight to them.

I bet he really was fired.

~~~
cerebrum
> I bet he really was fired.

If he did make lots of sells I bet he is still there, and the boss is laughing
all the way to the bank.

------
gergles
I just walk off. If anyone follows me through the mall screaming at me (which
has happened, at the very same mall listed here!) I immediately go complain to
mall management..... who do nothing, because apparently a gimmick kiosk
selling $2 bottles of goo for $100 pays them a lot of rent.

One mall I went to in semi-rural Ohio had it right -- the kiosks had little
boxes taped on the floor around each kiosk, and the hucksters weren't allowed
to leave their box. It was easy to go to a mall to shop, not to be yelled at
like some kind of third-world bazaar.

~~~
ZoFreX
You come off a teensy bit ignorant and offensive at the end, there.

~~~
hilko
What's wrong with that if it's true? My experience in poor countries is
exactly the same. The shopping experience is horrible, because people are
relentlessly trying to sell you things.

It's not saying anything about the culture in general, or the people, just the
truth about third-world bazaars...

------
alan_cx
With out getting too specific, there is a vulnerability the buyer can exploit.
The sales man has spent ages with the buyer rolling out his well learned
techniques. This is helped if the buyer uses up as much time as he can bare.
Which means unless he makes a sale, he has totally wasted his time. Time is
money.

So, just at the point where he has totalled up his oh so great deal for you,
and just as you are about to pay for the items, stop. Turn to the sales man
and offer a deal of your own.

Two things happen. You have just taken control back of the whole sales
routine, which suddenly changes your position completely not least because it
refreshes your own sense of control. And second, the sales man is totally set
off balance and facing the loss of the sale and his time. You can give a whole
load of his patter straight back. "Because you are such a great sales guy, I
would hate for you to lose this sale", "This offer of mine is a one time
offer, could go home and order this lot much cheaper on line", etc.

At that point I start by offering 25%, yes 25%, and seeing where he wants to
go. My reasoning for the low percentage is that is sends out a message about
how much I value the product, and that despite everything the sales man has
said, it hasn't worked. But, I might buy at a value I feel is right for me.

Having done all that, the pressure is off you, and you are freed up to make a
rational decision, and being back in control makes it much easier to say, "No,
thanks, but I'll pass today."

~~~
CamperBob2
_At that point I start by offering 25%, yes 25%, and seeing where he wants to
go_

How is this any different than requesting a blowjob in the parking lot to
every woman you encounter in the gym or grocery store? Occasionally your
insulting offer will work. It will work a _very_ small percentage of the time,
and meanwhile, you gain a reputation as an annoying douchebag that will follow
you around 100% of the time.

I'd rather just take or leave the deal at the asking price, or something
reasonably close to it, and get on with my day.

~~~
chmike
Appart from the fact that the analogy isn't nice, you seem to misunderstand
the process of haggeling. I personnaly don't like to haggle or people who try
to haggle with me just for the sake of efficiency. But in some places or with
some people haggeling it is a must do if you don't want to end the day as a
chikken without feathers. In north Africa and Middle Est it is common
practice. So in south of France where many north Africans are living, haggling
is an expected practice when making deals from person to person. If you are
not doing this, then you are considered to be an idiot.

~~~
CamperBob2
_Appart from the fact that the analogy isn't nice_

And trying to chisel a 75% discount out of everyone you buy from is?

Whatever society it is that you're talking about isn't for me, I guess. Sounds
like a lot of work.

------
elliottcarlson
While this may not be the case for all of the dead sea related skin care
booths (though I know it accounts for a large chunk of them in my area) -
these people often have major quotas to reach in exchange for the room & board
and small pocket money they get in exchange. A lot of them are brought to the
U.S. with the promise of a job lined up and when they get here they are in a
small apartment with 5 or 6 others. Just a slight insight as to why they are
often so aggressive in their sales pitches.

------
Joeboy
On a bit of a tangent, if anybody's ever wondered why innocent people would
incriminate themselves under questioning by the police, bear in mind that the
police have much, much more leverage at their disposal than a skin care
product salesman.

------
dave_sullivan
That's an interesting story. There's a great book called spin selling that
mentions some study where they tried to look at the effectiveness of closing
tactics like the ones you saw.

They found that for reasonably inexpensive purchases (a $300 camera for
example), the hard close can work quite well. But for more expensive, complex
purchases, like million dollar software contracts, the hard sell is pretty
much the worst thing you can do.

For more complex sells, it pays to uncover and explore the true expense
associated with a problem and paint a picture of the user continuing with
current product (their competitors put them out of business) vs your product
(they put their competitors out of business).

Just don't break out the calculator, offer the one time only special deal, or
do anything else from the school of 24 hour fitness gym membership sales
training unless you want to get kicked out of your prospect's office.

------
tlrobinson
Usually I'm immune to mall salespeople, but literally the _exact_ same thing
happened to me a couple years ago. Same products, same mall (SF Westfield),
same tactics, Israeli salesperson. They've got the formula down to a science,
apparently.

The only difference was the salesperson was a cute girl and I was single at
the time...

~~~
gadders
I had an intern that worked as a "Chugger" [1] once and I asked her (an
attractive female) how many people she managed to sign up for direct debits in
day and she said "It depends how many silly boys there were around."

[1] <https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:chugger>

~~~
trhtrsh
Those people (and their employers) are the worst. They stand on the street
begging like your average panhandler, but they are FAR more aggressive, making
psychological warfare on passersby, and they are basically stealing from the
charity recipients they claim to be fundraising to help.

------
jakejake
I'd say the OP was a rather gullible customer. The salesman didn't even have
to resort to the next level, which is when they try to make you feel guilty
for taking up their time. Or try to make you feel like a cheapskate because
you won't buy their product for your child, date, etc.

------
jyap
This is pretty funny. I was just in SF in June and was waiting around that
booth for about 20 minutes while my wife shopped. Overhearing the guy (must
have been the same guy Adir) was certainly interesting.

It would start off with the free sample push, often targeting older ladies.
"Young lady, free sample for you." Then when there was eye contact, "Where are
you from?". Then the sales pitch began in full force.

------
fratis
When I worked in a mall, I'd get accosted by these guys on a daily basis (on
my way to lunch). I developed the perfect response to their inevitable "Hello,
sir! How are you?"

"I'm doing great! So well, in fact, that even Dead Sea products couldn't
improve my day!"

------
droithomme
Good article. $100 is definitely a fair price for a private tutorial session
in sales techniques taught by an experienced professional.

------
squarecat
The author should stay FAR away from car dealers.

~~~
watmough
And stay away from Istanbul too!

~~~
squarecat
(Not Constantinople)

------
ajtaylor
This happened to me last Christmas! Those guys (it was a woman in my case) are
super effective in their techniques. I had absolutely no intention of buying
anything as I was walking by. My first mistake was responding to their
question as I walked by. My second mistake was not continuing on my way
through the rest of the mall.

Luckily, I DID manage to get a refund for the products later. I claimed that
my wife was allergic to the things I had bought. The sales ladies were
skeptical when they say the packages were unopened, but nevertheless I got a
full refund - somehow.

------
conover
A man named Joe Ades used to do something somewhat similar in Union Square.
Apparently he was well known.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCUct4NlxE0>

~~~
chasing
Yeah, I used to watch him do his thing. Seemed like an odd sort of echo of a
New York City from a century or two ago...

------
EGreg
"With the new number 69 seducing me, my strong “no” quickly changed to a
“maybe”, and then to a “yes”. "

This is not the first time I was seduced by the number 69. There's something
about that number that's seductive. Like how all the cable TV packages are
$69. I wonder what it is about that number that is so attractive to everyone
in the US -- it doesn't seem to be that way in other countries.

~~~
pja
I honestly can't tell whether this comment is straight or not.

~~~
czr80
It's not.

------
lani
$100 worth of education, that will remain seared into the brain ?

you should get a paper out of it and sell the technique it to retailers ... i
see a lot of kahneman/ariely patterns here... how about if you string them up
in a nice if-else style decision tree ...

------
valhallarecords
I've talked to this exact same kiosk in the SF Westfield before as well. The
saleswoman was very very persuasive. I eventually walked away, and she made me
feel like I was a mean person haha.

------
brk
I ran across one of these kiosks recently while walking through a mall in
Waikiki with my wife.

Same basic pitch (and the dude had a very similar name), including lots of
"touching" of your hands, which helps make that connection.

From the minute we made eye contact I pretty much knew it was going to be a
high-pressure sales tactic. I let him do his spiel and offer us all the
tremendous discounts, then thanked him for his time and left.

------
ruswick
I find the ease with which people can be manipulated to be fascinating. This
individual was far too trusting and lacked adequate discernment or awareness.

I buy things based on one tenant: don't trust anyone who attempts to take your
money, ever. All commerce is done based on an imbalance of value, and the
ability for one party to unilaterally leverage that gulf to make money.
Moreover, the customer is diametrically opposed to the salesman. Their goals
are antithetical to one another and their objectives are mutually exclusive.
The seller wants to take the buyer's money and give them as little value as
possible, yielding more lucrative margins; the buyer wants to acquire as much
of a commodity as they can for as little money as possible, heightening
returned value.

A capitalistic society is just a myriad of people trying to take whatever they
can from everyone else. Sometimes we forget that.

~~~
ruswick
If you feel the need to down-vote, please explain for the sake of edification.

~~~
hythloday
_All commerce is done based on an imbalance of value, and the ability for one
party to unilaterally leverage that gulf to make money._

Many people on HN will tell you that the imbalance of value means that if I'm
paying $100 for skin products, they must be worth more than $100 to me.

There's both a certain element of truth and a certain element of circular
reasoning in that. Your comment, though not exactly incorrect, reads
tendentiously incomplete to me.

------
aneth4
Yelp reviews are fascinating for showing how effective these tactics are. I
guess Israelis are as scientific about their sales as their martial arts.

<http://www.yelp.com/biz/dead-sea-premier-kiosk-san-francisco>

------
kaila
I spent many years working in shopping malls, and while I was there I learned
a few fun things about the kiosk folks. It's apparently really common for them
to only come to the US for the last few months of the year, set up the kiosks
in malls, make a bunch of money, and then go back home. I'm not sure why, but
Israel seemed to be a really common country of origin. The mall management in
the malls I worked in were okay with the aggressive sales tactics (including
following after people) from the kiosk people because they made so much money
for the mall itself.

The best way I learned to deal with the kiosk people was to just not make eye
contact and keep walking if they said anything to me. Rude, but effective.

------
jimmar
I went used car shopping two weeks ago. I was genuinely looking for a car, but
the social scientist inside of me was equally curious to observe the sales
tactics. I understood many of their tactics to try to get me to sell myself
the car. But I didn't get one thing: handing me off to several different
people when it was obvious I wasn't totally sold on the car I liked best. I'd
find myself talking to a new person about the price I'd be willing to pay. Or
I'd have the floor manager show me around. And before leaving, the sales
manager wanted to introduce me to some random guy I'd never talked to before.
Why I would want to meet that guy, I have no idea.

~~~
mullingitover
Your first mistake is going to the car dealer without an offer in writing. The
trick is to email several dealerships and pit them against each other, so
you're only walking in the door when you have the best price available in
writing.

~~~
greyboy
He was looking at used cars, not new. It's a different game. For new cars, I
agree with you.

~~~
nvarsj
Even that is no guarantee, dealers regularly reneg on the online price, the
classic bait and switch.

~~~
smsm42
If they do that, the only thing to say is "good bye, and the 'good' ia there
for politeness' sake only". Never ever talk to them again and if you have
time, write most nasty review on them on any site that takes reviews (of
course, tell the truth, but don't be shy about it). This would be good both
for you and for the environment - sleazeballs should not be rewarded.

Fortunately, my experience shows there are honest dealers that do not renege
on their promises and respect both themselves and their customer. Even in this
business, notorious for some bad apples, there are also decent ones.

------
willhsiung
Had a similar experience at Walt Whitman Mall in Huntington, NY (Long Island)
when I visited my mom for Thanksgiving a couple of years ago. The lady at the
kiosk selling something similar gave me a sample and pestered me to buy a
package. Don't remember the excuse I gave for not buying, maybe pointing out I
was from out-of-town or just wasn't interested.

Haven't had any problems with other mall kiosks with such sales pitches, so it
appears those selling "Dead Sea skin care" products may be in some network
where vendors are given a consistent method of selling.

------
DigitalSea
These Dead Sea Costmetic stalls must be everywhere. The same kind of cosmetic
stalls are very prevalent in shopping centres here in Australia. They employ
people with French accents usually and well, I think someone trying to sell
you something in an accent also helps brainwash you into a purchase.

The calculator part of this story gave me a chuckle. For those who have been
to Bali before (well any part of Indonesia, Thailand and those kinds of
countries) bartering is in their blood and they too employ the same techniques
using a calculator to sell you stuff.

------
ari_
Here's a very easy way to get out of a Dead Sea cosmetics selling pitch: Say:
"shalom, ani merusut haHagira, efshar lirot et Ashrat HaAvoda Shelca?"
Translates as: Hello, I'm from Immigration, can I see your work visa?

Also in the USA there's no such thing as No Refunds No Exchanges - if you pay
for something by credit card you have extensive consumer rights regardless of
the merchant's policies.

Finally, the real reason these sales pitches work so well is they MAKE SKIN
CONTACT - and there's something about the actual physical touching that makes
the sale a lot easier.

------
drivingmenuts
We had a skin-care salesgirl parked outside one of the Apple stores here in
Austin. They really will try almost every trick in the book short of actual
physical assault to keep you from leaving.

------
yarianluis
This story particularly illustrates why I avoid going into places with a
selling mentality (most places in malls) and prefer to shop in places with a
completely customer-centric perspective (what I call the REI model).

One easy way to find such places is to look for lack of pay by commission. REI
and Apple are too relevant examples. However a lot of the time even stores
that pay based on commission will have a larger customer focus than a sales-
pitch focus. Nordstrom is one example that comes readily to mind.

In short, be careful where you shop.

------
r00fus
As someone hailing from an emerging foreign country, I usually find these kind
of encounters very uncomfortable and feel almost allergic to any sales
process.

The pricepoints ($100) make things much worse. Not sure about you but once I
get to 3 $digits, there's an approval step required by my internal auditor
even if it's just a "sticker price" that will be talked down.

I tend to avoid these situations by all means possible, even if it means
taking a less efficient route to my destination.

------
chimpinee
I used to find it hard to walk past 'chuggers' in the UK (people collecting
for charity in the street). I managed it but it was unpleasant. Why? Because
I'd have to steel myself into a kind of Beast in order to break free from
their psychological tractor beams.

I eventually worked out that if they were exploiting basic decency and human
contact, that's fine. I'll smile and wave, even reciprocate compliments
creatively, and _then_ walk past.

------
rizzom5000
The Yelp reviews on these kiosks are interesting (dead sea premier kiosk).
Lots of one-star ratings and rants about smooth-talking sales people taking
money from the, ahem, innocent who are now filing complaints with FTC etc. I
had to laugh out loud.

It reminds me of this olde English phrase, "If they pay a penie or two pence
more for the reddinesse of them..let them looke to that, a foole and his money
is soone parted."

------
damian2000
One of the biggest upsells I ever had launched on me was when purchasing a new
car. After signing the purchase agreement they immediately put me into a
different office with a stunning looking blonde woman who upsells additional
protection products such as 5yr warranty extension, window tint, fabric
protection etc. Trying to say no to all of it is extremely difficult at that
point.

------
polynomial
Oh, I thought this was going to be about Kickstarter.

------
coffeedrinker
One piece of good advice: "A good deal today will be a good deal tomorrow."

Live by that advice and you will always be free to walk away and think about
it.

------
cerebrum
How to these sellers learn this stuff? Do they get some instruction or do they
just learn by trial and error? Any info on that?

~~~
chubot
A lot of people have said on this thread that it's an Israeli/Middle East
thing. I imagine that these salesman been on the other side of it too in their
home countries, as customers/prey. Some of them probably get interested in how
it's done and just watch the guys who are making money. Or a boss teaches
them. I think it is interesting that the Middle East was a historical trade
hub and I don't doubt that this culture stems in a large part from that.

------
crusso
Never make eye contact with mall kiosk workers.

~~~
dredmorbius
Dark glasses and stonewall face.

The kiosk phenomenon also makes the entire mall experience _extremely_
unpleasant for me.

------
janoulle
This mirrors my experience with a Deep Sea salesman. Same setup: pop-up stand
in a busy mall and I made the mistake of locking eyes with the salesperson. I
'lost' $75 and after a brief period of kicking myself, I couldn't help but
marvel at how I was manipulated to buying the creams.

------
ww520
I guess the ultimate challenge would be to go to a free timeshare vacation and
endure the sales pitches there. I've heard people with their mind set on not
buying ended up buying the timeshares at the end.

~~~
lesterbuck
I went to one of those time share vacation stays and pitches a long time ago,
and the pitch just bounced off. Returning to my home town just after college,
one of my high school friends, now selling insurance, suggested we "have
lunch." I didn't realize what was happening, but that one bounced off me, and
I got a free lunch, too. When I got home, my mother was shocked and told me I
should apologize to him. Live and learn... To this day, I still cringe when I
see that guy at high school reunions!

------
olleicua
Consumers are so stupid. Do you really have such little sense of self worth
that you'll let yourself be scammed like that?

------
gsibble
Bought the same exact stuff from the same guy at the same mall.

Actually works really well. But damn do they have the tactics down.

------
ipince
Funny. A few months ago I was subject to the exact same pitch. Everything
exactly the same. As I read I thought "wow, these cosmetics companies got this
down to a science." Turns out it was the same company, so who knows.

The only difference was that my salesman was in fact a woman, a very good
looking and flirty woman. At the end of the day I didn't buy anything and I
could feel her hatred towards me. Left a bitter taste in my mouth.

------
languagehacker
"I was duped" didn't cover it? Had to make it a homework for one of your MBA
classes?

------
indiecore
I wonder if you could make a game out of trying to regame these guys. Maybe as
training? Try to be as obstinate as possible for as long as possible while not
getting outright rejected.

~~~
pooriaazimi
That's what I occasionally do (only when they deserve it, of course). Marco
Arment did it too a while back, in a Microsoft store:
<http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe> \- HN discussion:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4705299>

