
YogaGlo Update - kadabra9
http://www.yogaglo.com/blog/2013/12/yogaglo-update/
======
grellas
A few thoughts:

1\. Junk patents abound in today's digital world, where "method" and
"computer" have been endlessly linked to suggest that something is innovative
when it is not. YogaGlo's patent is a bit different but in the same spirit of
method madness.

2\. For much of this, we can thank the loosening standards imposed over the
past two decades by a specialized patent appeals court that has given
overblown significance to what once was a highly specialized field of
tremendous importance to the competitors immediately involved but not to
average people. Result: average people see the flood of junk limiting,
irritating, and frustrating their lives and are mad as can be at the skewed
results.

3\. In a parallel world known as that of the law, it is business as usual,
with the junk patents having become monetizing weapons in the hands of
aggressors and with the industry generally profiting at every angle from the
"growth business" that patent litigation has become. Most of the actors see
the insanity but also see nothing at all that is poised to dislodge it because
the many tentacles that combine to choke off common sense are so diffused and
dispersed, with each having its own reason for failing to act: congressional
leaders beholden to lobbying interests, market-leading device-makers seeking
to keep competitive advantage by any means possible, those who seek to
challenge them having of necessity to spend billions to buy their own arsenal
by which to protect themselves, federal circuit judges who have a built-in
incentive to magnify the importance of patents and of their role in shaping
the "inventions" of the future, a federal system of checks and balances in
which a Supreme Court must defer to constitutional restraints on its power to
reform the mess it sees before it, a patent office that is overwhelmed with
junk applications and simultaneously pressured to move them along in the
system without being too finicky about which ones pass or not, and a startup
community that is basically schizophrenic on the point in philosophically
condemning the system while, in the case of any given venture, embracing it
insofar as it gives to the venture a potential sustainable competitive
advantage.

4\. Seen in this context, the YogaGlo defense is actually as good a
_technical_ defense of a junk patent as one might make: it pleads that people
try to understand that, as a business matter, the company needs to stake out
its turf and block others from intruding on it through the same sort of legal
means that all other ventures use and, thus, what should be so wrong in its
doing what the whole world is doing anyway; it argues that the thing really is
as narrow as one might imagine given that all sorts of non-patentable ways do
and always have existed for filming yoga classes; and it claims that the
company is really just reasonable and restrained and hardly intending to
create the sort of dust-up that followed in the wake of people's shocked
realization that they (or people they like) might get sued for doing what used
to be a routine filming of an instructional video. Imagine if you were given
the awful task of trying to defend this thing. How would you have done it
better? From the company's standpoint, this is the baser half of the startup
world's schizophrenic attitude toward patents: we may oppose the hell out of
it philosophically but, when it comes to pragmatic advantage, stand aside and
let us do what we must do to meet our business goals.

5\. Of course, in the end, this is really just one more junk patent and so the
company's defense comes off as inadequate and even insincere. Yes, others may
have made some unfair statements that distorted the facts but the company's
problem is that such statements, though perhaps unfair in a narrow sense,
perfectly capture the sense that most people have that this grotesque thing
should not be allowed to stand and that no tears of sympathy need be wasted on
those who brought it into existence, _whatever_ their motives.

~~~
samplonius
> 2\. For much of this, we can thank the loosening standards imposed over the
> past two decades by a specialized patent appeals court that has given
> overblown...

No, this is just a common misconception. If you look at the history of rulings
from east Texas, you will see they invalidate a higher percentage of patents
than other courts in the US. East Texas just implemented rules on length of
filings and length of arguments to cut out most of the crap out of patent
cases, making the process cheaper and faster for both sides.

So, if you have an iffy patent, and you want to have the best odds of winning,
don't file in east Texas. But expect to pay a lot more.

I guess the east Texas model is bad for lawyers who file thousands of pages of
"supporting material", and then get paid $200/hr to read it. But how much of
this supporting material was actually relevant? Not much, which is why the
judge in east Texas was able to enforce page limits.

The east Texas model is the right way to rule on patent cases. But the patent
system needs to be supported by better laws.

~~~
jbail
Sorry, but I don't think you're right. The data shows that in east Texas,
patent holders win injunctions or damages nearly 2x of the time. That's why
they go to trial there.

Since you didn't provide data to back up your assertion, I will provide a link
to mine: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-
switch/wp/2013/09/19...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-
switch/wp/2013/09/19/why-do-patent-trolls-love-east-texas-and-delaware-they-
win-more-there/)

~~~
throwawaykf03
The author of that article, James Bessen has been called out on questionable
methods or analysis in some of his studies. For instance, he's the guy who
created the "trolls cost 29 billion" meme out of thin air, the debunking of
which [1, 2] never got much press.

Here's a study that directly refutes the claims article from another
researcher with a lot more data:

[http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1597919](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1597919)

It finds that Eastern District of Texas is not even in the top 5 when it comes
to plaintiff win rates.

1\.
[http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2117421](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2117421)

2\. [http://blog.patentology.com.au/2012/06/29-billion-us-
troll-t...](http://blog.patentology.com.au/2012/06/29-billion-us-troll-tax-or-
just-another.html)

------
r0h1n
> _Below are a few visual examples of what our patent protects. Note, there
> are many other ways companies and teachers can create yoga classes that do
> not look anything like YogaGlo’s classes:_

I discounted every single word they said after seeing the pictures! I cannot
believe any sane person, much less a patent official, can believe that those
ought to be patentable.

What came to mind was a Sanskrit proverb many Indians would be aware of:
"Vinaash Kale, Vipreet Buddhi", which roughly translates to, "When the hour of
destruction is near, the brain abandons all logic."

I hope (against hope) the end of the patent system as we know it is nigh :)

~~~
alphakappa
I can't wait for movie directors and cinematographers to patent their styles.

~~~
samelawrence
Tim Burton better patent the ability to use Johnny Depp and Helena Bonham
Carter in a movie together.

~~~
Zikes
I'll bet J.J. Abrams already has a patent drafted for lens flares.

------
randomfool
I go to any conference which is being filmed and what does the setup look
like?

\-- Aisle down the center, speaker at the front ("a line of sight corridor
between the rear area of a class and the instructor in the front of the
class")

\-- Camera at the rear in the middle of the aisle, providing clearest,
centered view of the speaker ("an image capturing device located in the rear
area with an unobstructed view of the instructor, to provide a participatory
view through the line of sight corridor")

\-- Everyone seated facing the speaker (duh) ("students in a class, facing the
instructor, distributed across the classroom between the instructor position
and the image capturing device wherein the students do not block the
corridor.")

So they just took a standard filming technique and added 'yoga' to it.

------
DanBC
Does prior art mean anything with the US First to File system?

Is anyone looking through old DVD or VHS videos of Yoga lessons, or through
Youtube (or similar) video sites?

This strikes me as another reason why DMCA is bad. Backing up an old VHS tape
might require breaking the macrovision copy protection. Yet it's important to
keep this old stuff around because it might be useful in cases like this.

~~~
DannyBee
"Does prior art mean anything with the US First to File system?"

Yes, first to file is about what happens when two people invent the same thing
within the same year, not about "first guy to ever file something gets a
patent".

------
reustle
They said they never sued another company related to this patent, but they
forgot to mention they have sent Cease and Desist(s) [1]

[1] [http://yogainternational.com/article/view/patents-and-
lawsui...](http://yogainternational.com/article/view/patents-and-lawsuits-the-
future-of-yoga)

~~~
russellsprouts
That is the point of the patent, isn't it? They have the patent so that no one
else can use the same filming style. They don't intend to sue anyone, but if
someone is filming in ways that are too similar to theirs, they will try to
get them to stop. That can range from polite emails to cease-and-desists.

~~~
pessimizer
So basically, they don't intend to sue anyone over the patent unless they can?
How exactly would you sue people who stop the infringing behavior upon
request?

------
famousactress
Fuck 'em.

Also... frankly, this is awesome. We need increased lunacy outside of the
software industry for people to understand how broken patents are. This story
is getting enough traction that "Patent Reform" is likely to be an idea that
will resonate with substantially more people.

------
code_duck
They claim their patent is very specific, then list points that amount to 'a
camera on the back of the room, with a view of the instructor, and students
around the room who aren't blocking the camera'. The supposedly non-infringing
examples are silly, too - a bunch of videos with people standing in the way of
the instructor. Can they realistically assert that not having students stand
in the way, blocking view of the instructor, in an instructional/exercise
video is novel, non-trivial, non-obvious and not done before?

------
saosebastiao
After reading a few sentences, it all started sounding the same to me. I still
came away from this with the perception that they patented a camera angle.
This will not win back any points for them.

------
mbesto
Since this is relevant to the tech community let me paint a picture before
people start sharpening the pitchforks...

I've been meeting with investors recently and one of the most common
questions/comments has been - "Why can't someone else just do the same thing?
Can a group of Stanford grads build this in a weekend?" This line of
questioning is relevant to pretty much all startups today.

The reality is, from what I can tell, to build YogaGlo, you could build this
in a month with a fairly decent tech team and a little bit of hustle. Now
imagine you're the CEO of YogaGlo today and an investor asks you these
questions. Easy answer - "they can't, we have a patent". Think of this in
another light. What happens if the company goes bust and there are no physical
assets to liquidate? A patent (or IP) is an asset that can be sold. (think
Nortel[1])

We've significantly lowered the barrier to pretty much every industry in the
world. The production cost of one of these yoga classes can't be more than
$100 per video and yet can reach a million in a click of a button. Since it's
so "easy", we come full circle back to how important ownership, rights, IP and
patents are. Otherwise your business is simply another replaceable middle man.

However here is where I believe YogaGlo has just screwed up in playing this
game. Because it's so easy to reproduce their IP, companies like YogaGlo
should be focusing on mindshare, and less about patentability and competition.
Create such good relationships with yoga instructors and the people watching
the videos that they wouldn't dare go to the competition. This sentence stuck
out more than anything: _" Several companies offered to buy us, invest,
license our technology, or hire YogaGlo to film their classes. When we
declined, a few grew unhappy with us."_ You declined?! Are you out of your
mind? Why not become the de facto company for licensing your technology,
filming other Yoga classes, etc? That's how you build mindshare - and
mindshare is IMHO the "new IP".

[1]-[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nortel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nortel)

~~~
imsofuture
Your business being easily copyable is not a 'wrong' that should be righted by
the legal system. That's a really, really nutty notion.

~~~
throwawaykf03
If a business is easily copyable and no-one will finance it for that reason,
that business may never come to exist, which is clearly a net loss to society.
Of course, this does not apply to yoga videos, but a lot of startups that
venture into unproven technologies or markets are very risky investments.

~~~
pessimizer
>business may never come to exist, which is clearly a net loss to society

That is not at all clear.

~~~
throwawaykf03
Having new businesses is not a net loss to society? Sure, a vast majority of
them will be worthless, but without experimentation how else will valuable new
markets be discovered?

------
tobyjsullivan
I basically read "this is an incredibly strict patent. We didn't blatantly
patent filming from the back of the class. Our patent only applies when the
camera can see the teacher."

I've followed online yoga sites for years and this is by far the most common
and obvious way of filming a class.

------
mcbutterbunz
The really upsetting thing is that the patent seems to center around a certain
photographic composition. They've just added "oh and we stream it too".
Couldn't this be extended to also cover non-yoga courses with the same
composition technique?

------
funkjunky
"Setting the record straight" has only emboldened my opinion that this patent
is pure baloney and YogaGlo is a disgrace to the yoga community AS WELL AS the
business community. I hope this patent goes down in flames and YogaGlo is put
out of business in the process

------
andy_ppp
There should be a huge amount of prior art for this? Surely before yoga glo
there must be ONE video with the same angle?

~~~
jaunkst
less than 20 seconds of youtube searching.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOt35-GQ_8w](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOt35-GQ_8w)

~~~
throwawaykf03
That looks pretty close (although I can't tell if the camera is at a height of
3 feet), but it was uploaded in 2011. This patent has a priority date of 27
Aug 2010, so to invalidate this patent, any videos like this from before that
date would be needed.

~~~
mcintyre1994
The patent says "about 3 feet" instead of 3 feet, and while that's vague
enough to be stupid they've helpfully provided images of their classes that
represent a camera at that height in the post. Skimming that video it looks to
be a very close match.

I'd be interested to know whether arguments used defending against prior art
are legally binding afterward. For example if they said "nope, the camera
looks to be 1m, not 3ft", would they be unable to consider something at 1m
infringement forever?

~~~
throwawaykf03
_> I'd be interested to know whether arguments used defending against prior
art are legally binding afterward. For example if they said "nope, the camera
looks to be 1m, not 3ft", would they be unable to consider something at 1m
infringement forever?_

Yes, it's called estoppel [1] which, amongst other things, basically means,
"whatever you say can and will be used against you". This includes whatever
comments and arguments they made during prosecution of the patent.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel)

------
ddoolin
They are definitely soliciting people to respond on that statement page, I'm
sure of it. That, or they're making accounts to validate themselves against
the people who ARE real.

Or people really just don't care, which is entirely possible, but I won't let
my faith sink that low just yet. If you'd patent a camera angle then you'd
probably have no problem creating accounts to bolster your ego.

~~~
hbags
They're moderating the negative responses.

------
oh_sigh
I am glad the USPTO granted this patent. It shows how ridiculously idiotic the
patent system is in America at the moment.

------
JackMorgan
Ha, and here I thought they were going to apologize and release the patent as
the nonsense it is. Nope! Even better, a self-righteous screed about how there
is nothing to worry about... _for most of you_.

------
ThinkBeat
As an American and a Yogi I have to say America has to be the only country
where "entrepreneurial" teachers of Yoga feel the right to patent Yoga.

Exactly when Yoga started is a matter of debate but most will grant it a
couple of thousand years at least and most much farther back.

As an example is [Forrest
Yoga]([http://www.forrestyoga.com/](http://www.forrestyoga.com/)) where prior
art is technically in illustratiosn and text in ancient books. (There are
diligent engineers in India working to scan every single page of these books
as so people can claim it as prior art.

In Forrest yoga though they have made slight different in some of the poses to
justify it.

More importantly its the morality of feeling like as a teacher with maybe 40
years or less experience that you have mastered Yoga enough to own it.

So, now in the US there is a lot of money in Yoga, and Americans at every
level are trying to create patents to protect their "business" Be it in Yoga
itself, in the teaching of Yoga, in the franchises, and apparently the filming
of Yoga.

I feel we need a rule that will punish an organization or person filing or a
patent that is objectively illegitimate. I suppose the punishment would have
to be based on a percentage of the gross earnings of the company.

~~~
qwertyboy
While the usage of the word "Yoga" to describe _spiritual_ practices is
certainly quite old (the Yoga Sutras were apparently compiled a bit before
Jesus), Hatha Yoga is only a few centuries old, and the gymnastic practice
that is common today (asanas) is pretty modern (~150 years).

Doesn't make patents any less ridiculous, of course.

~~~
MaggieL
Jesus wasn't compiled, he's dynamically interpreted. :-)

------
johndevor
Let’s be clear: there is nothing inventive about having a camera pointing down
an aisle. If that’s patent worthy, then so is wiping my ass with my left hand.

------
xs
I feel like it would be easy to make money with workout videos if you can get
Netflix to stream it. Currently there's no streaming Netflix workout videos.
Yeah, none. On my Roku box I have a few options for yoga and workout channels
including YogaGlo channel. However I don't see how $18/mo just for streaming
yoga videos is an option when I only pay $8/mo for Netflix streaming videos.

------
seivan
Well here's the founder
[http://www.yogaglo.com/who_are_we.php](http://www.yogaglo.com/who_are_we.php)

------
krstck
I enjoy their helpful suggestions of "other" ways to film your yoga classes...
at awkward angles, or outside!

------
jplarson
Here’s a lovely bit of nasty hypocrisy:

"Yoga International could keep the videos on its website until it had a chance
to re-film the classes using a different style."

So they say they're not using the patent as a weapon, but then describe
themselves harassing another organization with it. Their patience is generous
only if we can assume it's no trouble at all to re-film those classes (ugh).

And doesn't the existence of videos they "felt were very close to ours" imply
a bit of prior art and/or lack of originality on the so-called patented style?
Or perhaps are they are insinuating that Yoga International willfully "stole"
or "reverse engineered" their style before the patent was issued?

------
jacobquick
You can't patent or copyright a film technique, this thing would never stand
up in a court. Unless they had discovered a new kind of camera that was the
only way to take the shot, it is not an invention.

------
ntharani
Translation: "We exercised common sense in taking a video and have patented
this." Prior art, I would have hoped, amounts to framing and take a video of
anything and capturing essential attributes to deliver a valuable online
experience. I'm a subscriber to yogoglo, and I'm ashamed. Any alternatives
without scummy patent tactics you can recommend?

------
xacaxulu
As if yuppies didn't make yoga horrible enough already...what else can we
appropriate from Eastern religion and patent for profit?

~~~
dnautics
desktop zen rock gardens. I was looking for an authentic full size zen rake,
and I couldn't find one, at all, since the search only yielded those kitchy
things you find on some people's desks.

------
fat0wl
"UPDATE: We _really are_ douches."

------
varelse
Dear Yogaglo, Go $!#@ yourself.

Namaste...

------
acd
Stupid patents!

Lets vote to get rid of the patent system.

------
a3n
Where's the invention?

------
loceng
I wonder if they're moderating for comments on their blog - or adding fake
ones; I think those kinds of behaviour are in line with patenting and trying
to control an environment.

------
amalag
Is this from The Onion?

------
sumang
I was thinking this was a Joke , but guys you are making fun of yourselves ;(

------
urza
Well I just canceled my subscription. Let's vote with our wallets.

------
snambi
What is this crap about patenting yoga classes?

------
no-brainer
Hidiotic, if i do say so myself.

