
SF Restaurants Can’t Afford Waiters. So They’re Putting Diners to Work - alex_young
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/dining/san-francisco-restaurants-service.html
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niftich
Last discussed 9 hours prior; at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17394551](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17394551)

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ww520
It seems like the media team at NYTimes has pushed things too far, pushing
dup's to the front page a bit too often.

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dang
It's easy enough to see for yourself via
[https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=nytimes.com](https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=nytimes.com)
that it isn't "the media team at NYTimes" who's posting most of these. As for
dupes, they happen every day.

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ibejoeb
That's a cafeteria.

My favorite dining experience in SF was when I got half of a deviled egg for
$9, and the server was just too fucking bothered to tell me that I should
order another half for my date.

I'll bet they're still going to try to slip in the "healthcare" fee for the
non-existent full timers.

Just one more thing: people will absolutely pay $20 for a burger. Many places
sell more expensive burgers, and at some they are the most popular and
profitable menu item.

Raise prices.

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codezero
Was that egg at Marlowe?

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ibejoeb
Absolutely was. That's hilarious.

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codezero
I knew it! I worked in an office near by there, and was invited to eat there
by some friends. I'll admit, it was good, but the price was mind boggling :)

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everdev
In Santa Cruz we have a bar with no bartenders. It's fantastic. Scan your
bracelet (linked to your CC), pour yourself whatever beer on tap you want and
pay only for the once you pour. Want one once of 16 different beers? No
problem. Can't get that experience at a traditional bar.

The seating is more like a restaurant, so no one is sitting by themselves
staring at a wall full of hard alcohol, everyone is facing the room and
mingling.

And the notion of the wise bartender with an ear to lend from the movies I
never saw transpire in real life.

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toomanybeersies
Given how bad most people are at pouring beers even from a bottle, let alone
from tap, I don't know if that's a good idea.

But then again, I've seen plenty of bartenders completely screw up the pouring
process. Just the other day I had a German backpacker behind the bar try to
pour my Guinness like it was a lager.

> And the notion of the wise bartender with an ear to lend from the movies I
> never saw transpire in real life.

I'm surprised that you haven't found any wise bartenders yet. That's one of
the reasons I enjoy going to good craft beer pubs. When I used to work in a
pub I had a good knowledge of every beer on tab, whenever there was a new beer
I'd have a half pint of it so that I'd know what it was like.

I was actually familiar enough with the regular beers that we served that I
was able to discern the variations between the batches that came in.

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jedberg
I went to a place like that. The nice thing is, if you get a shitty pour, you
have no one to blame but yourself!

I actually got to try three different drinks for the price of one, since they
have no problem if you give yourself a one ounce pour. In fact, they have a
button right on the machine to dispense one ounce. It was great.

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HumanDrivenDev
_The small menu is so appealing and the place itself so charming that you
almost forget, as a diner, that you have to do much of the work of dining out
yourself. You scout your own table. You fetch and fill your own water glass.
And if you’d like another glass of wine, you go back to the counter._

A lot of low-range restaurants work in Australia and New Zealand. Is this
really that rare in America?

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perl4ever
Sure, there are plenty of places where you get your food and take it to your
table yourself.

I also know of a place near me where you order at the counter, and someone
brings you your food when it's ready, but they don't "wait on you" beyond
that.

Panera (sandwich & soup chain) used to have you order at a counter and collect
your food when it was done, but they have been trying to get people to use
touchscreens for ordering, and take a radio homing device* to your table so
you can be brought food by the people who used to take your order.

*where the low tech solution that would work just as well is to simply ask your name when ordering.

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seanmcdirmid
The homing devices are common at Korean waffle places in Beijing, at least
they were 5 years ago.

Chic filet uses number placards.

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Eridrus
So, a question from a foreigner, if you buy something at a counter, should you
tip? I would think the answer is no, but in states where minimum wage laws are
different for tipped workers, I would expect the answer to be yes, but are
there other guidelines? Does it matter if you eat in vs take out? What are the
damn expectations?

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JackCh
If you buy something at a counter, there is no social expectation that you tip
(bartenders are the sole exception, but just give them a dollar not a
percentage.) Nor for takeout, but you should definitely tip for delivery
(those guys get a raw deal anyway, their pay sucks and they're almost always
putting miles on their personal vehicle. Tip them with cash when possible, to
make sure they get to keep it...)

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listenallyall
> If you buy something at a counter, there is no social expectation that you
> tip

In the USA, plenty of counter-service restaurants/shops have tip jars.
Further, many counter-service food outlets have added a tipping option to
their credit card process, usually with 15% as the minimum.

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sincerely
Those tip jars are basically a "if you don't want to deal with coinage or $1
dollar bills, we'll take it off your hand" option. You won't be thought poorly
of for not tipping at a cafe or counter-service restaurant the same way you
would be for not tipping a regular waiter.

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listenallyall
Thanks Starbucks, for taking those dollar bills off my hands so I don't have
to deal with them! How convenient of you! The homeless guy outside will also
perform the same service, by the way, but I wouldn't be "supporting a living
wage" if I gave him the money instead of your baristas.

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JackCh
Starbucks isn't _taking_ anything; they are receiving from people who give
willingly. If you choose to give them your money, you've got nobody but
yourself to blame. In the case of tip jars at counters you can't even blame
social pressure, participating in such a scheme is completely voluntary and
most people do not.

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listenallyall
Your argument is reductive. ALL tips are given willingly.

Starbucks could, at any moment, bar individual stores from placing a tip jar
at their registers. Just like McDonald's. No tips, no issue, no should I or
shouldn't I?

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JackCh
Tips to wait staff are voluntary but have significant social pressure behind
them. Tip jars at counters have no social pressure behind them. That's not
reductive, that's just the practical reality of tipping culture in America. If
you refuse to tip a waitress a very significant portion of the American
population will consider you tantamount to a thief, a morally bankrupt person.
Refusing to put your change in the tip jar doesn't even cause people to bat an
eye. The social dynamics between these two scenarios are worlds apart.
_Ignoring these disparate social dynamics is reductive._

If you're going to be outraged that Starbucks offers you the opportunity to
tip people at the counter, perhaps I should feign outrage that you spend your
money on starbucks instead of making your own coffee and giving the difference
to the homeless. Starbucks has a significant profit margin after all; that is
money you could be donating!

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listenallyall
Your outrage would be misdirected, as I have not patronized Starbucks in many
years. But among friends who do, they absolutely feel pressure to tip,
especially when they see the same barista every single day. I'll trust them
over you, thanks.

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JackCh
> _" But among friends who do, they absolutely feel pressure to tip,"_

I'm pretty damn skeptical of that, since in America the vast majority of
customers do not put anything in counter tip jars. Maybe you've got some sort
of strange selection bias going on...

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toomanybeersies
I don't think this is really a particularly new concept.

I think that there are two factors that have fuelled the rise of this type of
restaurant. The first is that people are eschewing more formal dining for
casual joints. When was the last time anyone went on a date to an actual fine
dining establishment? Let alone gone to one with friends.

Secondly, this isn't fine dining dressing down, but rather greasy spoons
dressing up. Souva just looks like a hipster version of a the kebab shop
around the corner from me run by an old Lebanese bloke. A lot of these places,
for better or worse, are ethnic food joints that are owned and operated by
white people (to put it bluntly). I've seen a lot of these pop up recently.
They're a hipster, more expensive version of traditional ethnic food.
Vietnamese and Chinese seem to be particularly popular.

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TheChaplain
> When was the last time anyone went on a date to an actual fine dining
> establishment?

Last night actually with my wife to a very nice french restaurant, something
we do once a week. We live in a cramped apartment without space for a dining
table, these moments are very cherished because we get to sit face to face in
a nice environment with good food.

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bsimpson
Souvla is a bad example. They have like 3 kinds of wrap (or salad, if you
prefer no grains) and frozen yogurt. It's basically SF's version of Chipotle,
or a Greek themed taqueria. It's quick-casual comfort food, and as in both
those examples, counter service. There are countless examples of quick casual,
counter service restaurants serving medium quality food all over the country
(including The Grove, which has been a staple of SF for 20 years).

If you were ordering $25 ravioli plates at the counter, that would be a
different story. Or, they could focus on restaurants that have moved to
counter service as they've expanded (like Hawker Faire, or apparently Dosa).
But to spend most of the article making a big deal about Souvla being counter
service makes it a misleading waste of time.

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skoutus
Am I the only person who prefer to get the drinks myself without a waiter? I
don't even like it when someone pour drinks for me, especially not when they
are compelled do it because their livelihood depends on it.

Unless it's an event where I feel under pressure to appear "stately", I don't
prefer to have people waiting on me at all, so I feel this is what all
restaurants should try to do.

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walru
Say you have questions and want to try something different, but are afraid to
pay for something you don't want. Or, you're thirsty for a cocktail you've
never had before and would like a suggestion. Isn't anyone afraid of losing
that experience?

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DeRock
You still order from a human who could answer any of those questions.

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walru
Not necessarily. If they aren't specialized in that field and just an order
taker.

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azinman2
Meanwhile, the cities answers to it’s problems (according to the recent ballot
initiatives), more taxes! On commercial spaces! Despite record revenue!
Because that won’t accelerate our vicious cycle at all...

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ponzored
This just seems like a good idea independent of labour costs.

We don't need a planet of 16 billion with so many workers performing simple
tasks that could easily be removed with improved processes like at this
restaurant.

A planet of 2 billion with cheap land and cheap food for a happy, intelligent,
beautiful and productive human workforce and lots of natural habitat for flora
and fauna would be a better place. Even if we have to find our own table at a
restaurant.

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dmode
Not sure I see the problem, restaurants survive, people eat good food, and
living wages are paid. Sure the market for college students earning a side
income is impacted, but does that even happen in SF ?

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oddity
This article isn't talking about the market for college students. It's talking
about what would be an "average" person almost anywhere other than SF.

Living wages _aren 't_ being paid because the cost of living has risen to the
point where the wage once paid is no longer livable. This means that
restaurants must either increase prices or cut employees, which when taken in
aggregate further increases the cost of living and lowers the average income.

Yes, "restaurants" as a category survive, but the low end gets devastated.
Many of these may have been around for a long time and some of them may have
been a major part of the local community or have been local favorites.

If you don't have a problem with that, then that's fine, but hopefully you
understand why others might.

