
Milk Might Not Be Doing You Much Good - mikek
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/upshot/got-milk-might-not-be-doing-you-much-good.html
======
guyzero
The conclusion is sort of weak - that milk isn't strictly necessary and
doesn't do much good for you because most Americans aren't vitamin- or
calorie- deficient.

That logic could be applied to literally anything. Is beef good for you? Most
Americans aren't protein deficient and beef has a lot of saturated fat in it.
Is chicken good for you? Most Americans aren't protein deficient. Are carrots
good for you? Most Americans aren't Vitamin A-deficient. etc.

Milk is fine. Not everyone can tolerate it. You don't need to drink a gallon a
day to stay alive. But it's a perfectly fine part of a normal diet. And for
kids who are sometimes fussy eaters, yeah, milk can actually make the
difference between getting enough calories or not.

~~~
imanaccount247
The difference is what happens if you take them away. Most Americans aren't
vitamin A deficient _because_ of carrots. If you removed carrots, you would
end up with a huge explosion of vitamin A deficiency. If you removed milk,
nothing would happen. And the notion that meat is simply protein is not
accurate. Meat is a primary source of a few vitamins and minerals for many
people (b12, zinc, iron, etc). The protein is not what makes it good, pretty
much anything that a reasonable person would classify as "real food" contains
plenty enough protein.

~~~
guyzero
Vitamin D is added to milk because before they did that there were a lot of
people with Vitamin D deficiency. The same thing is true of iodine in salt.

Most people can remove any one or two things from their diet and they won't
suddenly get scurvy or pellagra.

~~~
imanaccount247
That shows that vitamin D supplements are useful, not that milk is. Vitamin D
can be added to anything (it is already in lots of orange juice for example).
Coke with vitamin D in it isn't suddenly "a healthy part of a complete
breakfast!". If most people removed carrots or beef from their diet without
replacing it with some other source of the vitamins those provide, they would
become deficient. If most people removed milk from their diet, nothing would
happen. That's the point.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
I have to agree. When I was into bodybuiding and gaining, I drank milk (and
protein shakes) at about a gallon a day. I'm naturally lactose intolerant, but
drinking lots of it seemed to make me produce enough lactase that I could
digest it without much trouble.

But when I stopped working out, I soon stopped drinking milk and now I hardly
touch the stuff except for a little in coffee or the occasional milkshake. As
far as I can tell, it made no difference in my health.

I'm becoming a fat fuck, but that's lack of exercise, not lack of milk ;-)

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CompelTechnic
>In addition, milk is not a low-calorie beverage. Even if people drink nonfat
milk, three cups a day can mean an additional 250 calories consumed. Low-fat
or whole milk has even more calories. In an era when every other caloric
beverage is being marginalized because of obesity concerns, it’s odd that milk
continues to get a pass.

I'm kind of upset that this is an argument here. It's as if the author thinks
that because you drink a beverage instead of eat it, it can't make you any
less hungry, and therefore you keep on eating and drinking and get fat.

If anything, when I drink a glass of milk I feel more satiated (less hungry)
than I would for a lot of foods. Beverages can definitely make you feel full.

In addition, I've seen a good amount of evidence that protein (in milk or
other foods) produces more satiation per unit calorie than carbs or fat. I'm
too lazy to cite my sources right now, but a google search shows some merit to
the idea that milk helps you lose weight.

~~~
tiglionabbit
I'm kind of upset that anyone things drinking low-fat or skim milk is a good
idea. Milk contains many fat-soluble nutrients. If you remove the fat, you
remove the nutrients.

Instead of low-fat milk, we should drink low-sugar milk. It is the milk sugar,
lactose, that many people are intolerant to. If you want to get a feeling for
how much sugar is in milk, try lactose free milk some time. It is made by
introducing lactase which breaks the complex lactose down into simple
galactose, and it tastes like a bowl of lucky charms.

Recently I have switched to drinking half-and-half instead, when I want some
milk. I may even try out heavy cream eventually. Half and half has less sugar
and more fat than whole milk. Consuming fat is a great way to dampen the
glycemic index of sugary foods, so I think heavy cream or half and half is a
much better mate to cookies than regular milk would be.

whole milk: [http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-
products/6...](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-
products/69/2) half and half: [http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-
egg-products/4...](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-
products/48/2) heavy cream: [http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-
egg-products/5...](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-
products/51/2)

~~~
imanaccount247
Your link says you are mistaken. Milk has only a few vitamins and minerals in
reasonable quantities. They are still there in skim milk, and still just as
available. None of them are fat soluble other than the vitamin D if you are
consuming milk with vitamin D added to it. Compare whole milk from your link
to skim milk from the same site: [http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-
and-egg-products/1...](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-
products/139/2)

~~~
tiglionabbit
Guess I should have taken a closer look. Anyway, Vitamin A is fat-soluble and
you can really tell, since it tracks the amount of milk fat so well in these
tables.

~~~
imanaccount247
Yes, but vitamin A content is low anyways.

------
scott_s
What I take away from this is that milk does not provide any particular
benefits over other food. Which does not mean there's necessarily anything
wrong with it.

Personally, I was a long-time vegetarian, and am now a pescetarian. I am also
a very active person, training in power lifting and Brazilian jiu jitsu
several times a week. I drink whole milk daily because it is calorie and
protein dense, not because I think it has some magical properties.

~~~
latch

       Which does not mean there's necessarily anything wrong with it.
    

If it's nutritionally mundane, we should base our decision on other factors:
environmental impact, sustainability and animal cruelty. In Australia,
400K-700 calves (< 30 days old) are sent to the slaughterhouse every year in
order to sustain its milk industry.

~~~
ahh
...to produce delicious veal, presumably?

More to the point: if we didn't drink the milk of the mothers, neither the
mothers nor the calves would exist at all; we wouldn't maintain millions of
head of cattle for nostalgia. I'm not at all clear that's morally superior.

~~~
delecti
Considering how factory farms often treat livestock, I think there's a very
low moral bar we have to beat when considering not continuing the process.

Also, considering that many of the current cattle breeds are largely human
creations, I don't think there's the same moral imperative to continue their
existence like I believe there is with "natural" species, or even with animal
breeds which could survive on their own.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Then that's a problem with factory farms, not with raising animals in general.
It's quite possible, if a bit more expensive (sometimes...) to get meat that's
humanely raised.

------
legohead
Does anyone drink milk daily? I once tried switching to chocolate milk to get
rid of my addiction to Pepsi. It was going great, until about a week later,
where I was having BM problems.. constipation. Then I remembered my schooling,
and figured out that the milk was causing it. Today, I have accepted my
addiction and just drink Pepsi :)

~~~
vidarh
About a litre or so daily, sometimes more. Then again levels of lactose
tolerance in southern parts of Scandinavia here I'm from is amongst the
highest in the world.

I didn't really realise lactose intolerance was a thing until I was in mid
20's and moved to the UK.

~~~
trhway
colder climate -> bigger body is beneficial -> need bigger stronger bones ->
milk as an efficient and stable source of calcium. I'm from Russia and also
wasn't aware until few years ago that lactose intolerance is a norm on planet
Earth, not an exception.

------
warfangle
A fatty/protein-filled drink like milk is still better for you than what a
majority of americans consume gallons of a week: carbonated high fructose corn
syrup.

~~~
spodek
> A fatty/protein-filled drink like milk is still better for you than what a
> majority of americans consume gallons of a week: carbonated high fructose
> corn syrup.

And less healthy than the water our ancestors drank exclusively for millions
of years before we domesticated animals (except for babies and their mothers'
milk).

~~~
w1ntermute
Actually, before the advent of farming, the water our ancestors drank was
probably pretty clean, since hunter-gatherer societies had fairly low
population densities.

And you can't directly compare something that causes acute disease (dirty
water) with something that causes chronic disease (soda).

------
nly
> But there’s very little evidence that most adults need it. There’s also very
> little evidence that it’s doing them much good.

Isn't all foodstuff this way? I watched a BBC documentary a number of years
ago about a woman who had reportedly lived entirely on crisps (potato chips)
for years[0]. She wasn't entirely healthy by any means, but it speaks to the
resilience of our biology when you can get by on basically anything provided
you get enough calories and a few vitamins.

Once you get past a bit of common sense, the whole notion of "healthy food"
and "unhealthy food" often looks pretty ridiculous. It's really not worth time
debating the negligible pros and cons of one particular food item.

Disclaimer: I've been drinking a pint of semi-skimmed every night since I was
a child... which according to Wolfram Alpha is almost a quarter of the volume
of a Gray Whale

[0] [http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/feb/12/eaten-
on...](http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/feb/12/eaten-only-crisps-
for-ten-years)

~~~
delecti
Incidentally, she probably only survived because potatoes are very nearly
nutritionally complete.

I've read that you can survive indefinitely on a diet of potatoes and milk. I
don't remember a specific source, but a quick google search seems to back that
up.

------
leeber
This is not really "news" at all. I stopped drinking dairy milk a couple years
ago because I realized it offered no potential benefits, and only alleged
risks that kept surfacing in these studies.

There is literally no up-side to drinking milk, only purported risks. Thus,
IMO the only reason to drink it is if you REALLY REALLY REALLY like the taste
and can't imagine your life without it.

Also, interestingly - I personally have seen absolutely zero studies that
showed milk benefits, that was not funded by the dairy farmers.

~~~
guyzero
Of course there's an upside to drinking milk - it has calories and nutrients.
Is it a better source of those two things than anything else? No. But there is
no "perfect" food - you need a little bit of everything.

------
therealdrag0
Healthcare Triage has a video on milk being not particularly healthy or even
beneficial in ways people think:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzyFZcuHmeI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzyFZcuHmeI)

~~~
OrwellianChild
And, in case this isn't clear to everyone, Aaron Carroll is the author of both
the NYT article and the man in front of the camera at Healthcare Triage.

I think that Healthcare Triage does a pretty excellent job of presenting
information. Just don't want anyone to consider them separate sources, as it's
the same guy. :)

~~~
therealdrag0
Haha. Oops. I didn't notice that. I wouldn't have posted this if I had. Thanks
for pointing that out.

~~~
OrwellianChild
Anything that gives Heathcare Triage exposure is worth it in my book. It's
great stuff, regardless of Dr. Carroll's personal vendetta against milk. :)

------
jack-r-abbit
I don't really drink milk very often. I rarely ever just have a glass of it. I
have a bowl of cereal like 2-3 times a month (but really only because it is
there for the kids). I don't think I would miss it in liquid form if it was
suddenly unavailable. However, it is in a lot of things I eat: cheese, yogurt,
sour cream, chocolate, pan cakes, etc. So on one hand, it is a little strange
that humans are the only animal to drink the milk of another animal and to
drink milk of any kind past infancy. But on the other hand, products made out
of milk seem as natural and appropriate as products made out of hamburger.

------
carsongross
This certainly does not apply to everyone, but if you are trying to get
strong, Mark Rippetoe recommends a gallon of milk a day, which lead to this
hilarious exchange:

Rip: You need to drink one gallon of full fat milk everyday. It's almost
mandatory.

Audience Member: I'm lactose intolerant, could I substitute yogurt for milk?

Rip: Gallon of yogurt.

------
spodek
Why would anyone think drinking the milk of another animal, evolved to grow
calves, not people?

The article's second-to-last paragraph tells you everything. We believe in
milk because it's profitable for diary producers to promote it, which they do.

> _Politics are certainly at play here [...] the vast majority of Dairy
> Management’s funding for its marketing strategies comes from the producers
> themselves. The U.S.D.A. 's role in promoting dairy was firmly established
> in the 1983 Dairy Production and Stabilization Act, which made it the
> business of the government to carry out a “coordinated program of promotion
> designed to strengthen the dairy industry’s position in the marketplace and
> to maintain and expand domestic and foreign markets and uses for fluid milk
> and dairy products.”_

~~~
svalorzen
Well, I'm pretty sure nothing I eat specifically evolved to be eaten by me.
Guess what, I eat anyway.

~~~
delecti
Well that depends on whether you consider what we do to plants "evolution".

~~~
scott_s
To follow up your point: _everything_ we eat that comes from farms (so, most
fruits, veggies and meat) has been heavily altered from its wild ancestors. In
that way, we very much have, through artificial selection, made food adapted
for us to eat.

------
xordon
Hacker News: how to drink milk like a hacker!

Use 2 hands, one on each side of the cup. Open mouth. Lift arms, remembering
to keep back straight. Pour. DRINK DRINK DRINK DRINK

Ask HN: How do you drink milk?

~~~
Dewie
Is there an Emacs package to streamline this workflow?

