

Etsy users irked after buyers, purchases exposed to the world - ulysses
http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2011/03/etsy-users-irked-after-buyers-purchases-exposed-to-the-world.ars

======
silas
Interesting bit from the linked comments via "egoodman85":

Hey, just want to clarify something as an Etsy employee. It's not your
_purchases_ that are public - it's your feedback on those purchases. I know
it's a small distinction, but it's not like we have some sort of desire to
publicize our members' purchases. Feedback is public by default just like it
is on eBay - to increase accountability and transparency. It's also worth
noting that feedback has been public since the site's launch (in fact, the
option to make it private was only added recently). The new People Search
feature does not change this at all.

~~~
bigiain
FWIW, it's not just "your" feedback, it's also any feedback left by sellers on
purchases you've made, which identify your purchase whether you left any
feedback or not.

(search etsy for my username for an example)

I see this as a _major_ privacy screwup by Etsy. I don't mind people being
able to see the earrings I bought my girlfriend a few years back, but I can
_easily_ see people having purchases exposed that they really didn't ever
expect to be made public. (and I'll guess there's a whole category of items
that stop being bought on Etsy, and a category of purchases that won't be made
there any more (who's gonna buy their mistress jewelery on Etsy any more?))

~~~
gfodor
For the record, this is how it's always been on Etsy. However, we pushed a
change earlier tonight that removes seller feedback from public view. This
seemed like the right thing to do and is appropriate now that we are using the
newest PayPal API to ensure payment before an item is sold on the site -- this
removed a lot of the reasons for the public visibility of the specifics of
seller feedback. Note that your feedback score as a whole is still visible, so
we haven't removed seller feedback altogether.

------
gfodor
We take this stuff very seriously, and I just worked with Rob (CEO), and we
implemented this solution:
[http://www.etsy.com/teams/7716/announcements/discuss/6818578...](http://www.etsy.com/teams/7716/announcements/discuss/6818578/page/1/)

Being able to react to issues like this quickly is one of the great things
about the Continuous Deployment process we have set up at Etsy. You can read
more about that here:

[http://codeascraft.etsy.com/2010/05/20/quantum-of-
deployment...](http://codeascraft.etsy.com/2010/05/20/quantum-of-deployment/)

~~~
primigenus
Don't you think it's kind of inappropriate to respond to a serious accusation
with a marketing statement about the technical architecture of your site?

I mean, sure, before reading this I thought Etsy was cool because of the
continuous deployment thing, but now I think two things:

1\. perhaps continuous deployment leads to launching features without thinking
about their consequences for long enough; 2\. Etsy's team is more interested
in thumping its chest about continuous deployment than owning up to a serious
mistake.

~~~
gfodor
Perhaps you're right. My comment was primarily intended to link to the
explanation of the change we made to address some of the concerns people had.
Plugging CI was probably not necessary, though this is hacker news and so I
thought it was relevant to the discussion.

------
weaksauce
Your purchase history should never be up for grabs in a public manner. That is
a breach of trust in my book. I liked etsy but I don't think I will purchase
anything from them in the future because of this. Not that I am buying
anything incriminating but I don't want to support this type of marginalizing
of customer privacy.

This is the type of thing that should most certainly be either not implemented
at all or an opt-in type of thing if etsy still decided to go through with
creating the feature.

------
pluies
I had high opinions of Etsy after reading about their work environment and
ethics, but that is just a terrible move.

The only way to minimize the damages would be to roll back the feature
completely and apologize. Or turn it off for everyone and leave the option to
turn it back on. But that's a major PR blow.

~~~
TheCowboy
It's also an example of how it can be a liability to depend on another self-
interested corporate entity for your entire business platform. I've been
reading some of the comments on the forums from sellers talking about a
significant drop in sales.

But Etsy is in part successful due to the success of its sellers and their
unique offerings, making it a more symbiotic relationship. Merchants aren't
helpless and can put pressure on Etsy to be more open about changes, and
ensure that the privacy of their customers is always a first consideration.

------
tptacek
Yep. That's pretty horrific. Never buying on Etsy again.

~~~
apu
Based on your other comments on this site, I assume that was sarcasm, but I
know that a lot of other people would think you were being completely serious.

~~~
davidu
He's not being sarcastic. It's a non-obvious disclosure of people's
information they consider to be private. It's a very good example, actually,
of how Etsy is not respecting peoples privacy, regardless of the language in
their privacy policy.

So no, Thomas is serious -- as am I. I hate shit like this because these kinds
of security and privacy violations are not things the average consumer knows
how to protect themselves against. It's non-trivially solved. You and I might
be able to do it, but most folks can't, and they shouldn't be punished because
of it.

~~~
apu
Heh, I fail at the internet.

------
covercash
I just logged in and set feedback to private, now it says:

+Private Thank You! Enjoy! Check back with us. We are always adding new items.
420Chopshop .com

I bought a gift for my cousin and now my profile is tagged with 420chopshop
(they also sell things that aren't related to marijuana). It seems like you
can write anything you want in feedback and there is no way to hide or remove
it.

While I don't find it to be a huge issue, it will make me think twice before
buying something from Etsy in the future.

------
prawn
"Found an XXL glass dildo..."

Next para: "Critics of Etsy's new policy seem to have a thing for searching
for artisan dildos, but the point is pretty clear."

That is one spectacular double pun at the end...

------
droz
There had to be at least one person at Etsy that thought this was a bad idea.
As far as most people are concerned, a purchase is a private transaction
between two parities that is not to be disclosed (unless explicitly agreed
upon by both parties). Whoever made this 'feature' a reality really ought to
get fired.

~~~
Dylanlacey
And those people were probably steam-rolled over by a group of 'experts' who
decided that 'very few' people would care about this, because, y'know, it's
social? And everyone likes social?

~~~
jswinghammer
I don't know anything about how they run their operation but my guess is that
this was a big initiative and most people didn't see this reaction coming
because so much information on the site is public already.

------
pdaviesa
Why is etsy trying to do social? Are they going to roll out a daily deals
service next? What's their search strategy? Come on, etsy has a nice little
niche going, why ruin it by chasing the latest trend?

------
ajays
As an example:
[http://www.etsy.com/people/vanessakaleidoscope/feedback?type...](http://www.etsy.com/people/vanessakaleidoscope/feedback?type=for_others)
I don't mean to pick on this person, but I'm using this page as an example
(and it is from the P-A forums, I didn't dig it up).

Some users think that "feedback" is like an email to the seller; it won't be
public.

Given that people are upset, why doesn't Etsy just disable this "feedback is
public on your profile" feature?

~~~
jswinghammer
Because that would defeat the purpose. For a site like etsy feedback is very
important and if a buyer or seller is untrustworthy you need to know.

~~~
ajays
I agree. But psuedo-anonymize it! Just like Amazon gives you an option to pick
a name to go with your feedback.

------
pbj
Etsy's team should be willing to publish a highly visible feed of their
staffers purchases since they obviously shouldn't have anything to hide.

~~~
jswinghammer
Most of their team that I've met over the years (my wife used to be a pretty
big seller on that site) have shops and actively sell or have sold things so
you could see what they bought already through the feedback system.

------
blantonl
It is great that someone from Etsy has stepped up to respond. Thank you!

But, does _feedback_ expose purchases? If so, there needs to be an explicit
explanation (or policy) that identifies this will occur on Etsy.

------
code_duck
Etsy is trying really hard to be 'social' lately. Some members like it, others
don't. It seems like they swung harder down this path after the recent
investment by Index Ventures.

------
notJim
This article seems really misleading, or I'm confused. If it's really just
your feedback, then it's just like every other ecommerce site, where reviews
are public, and ars should correct themselves.

Otoh, the screenshot in the article makes it look like it's all purchases. So
which is it?

------
moxiemk1
Our CEO just posted a comment on the article for clarification:

[http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2011/03/etsy-users-irked-
aft...](http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2011/03/etsy-users-irked-after-buyers-
purchases-exposed-to-the-world.ars?comments=1#comment-21429759)

~~~
budu3
"We do have plans to give buyers on Etsy the ability to hide feedback for
certain purchases". "Certain purchases", really? Why not all purchases. I see
a train wreck coming.

~~~
moxiemk1
EDIT: I was mistaken on a few things - see gfodor's comment above

~~~
earl
As was clearly pointed out, seller feedback -- over which you have no control
-- is also public. And from your CEO's statement: "We do have plans to give
buyers on Etsy the ability to hide feedback for certain purchases. We
certainly appreciate privacy, and we spend a lot of time on these issues."

Now, I barely use etsy but my gf is a heavy user. I admire your company, but
if this is true -- that any purchase I or my gf make can receive public
feedback from the seller -- that's really not very cool. Plus your ceo has a
"plan" to allow people to disable it. It's hard to believe that your current
answer to "I bought a custom dildo and the seller said I was a good buyer" is
"tough shit -- email our customer service to hide your name and wait for this
change to be deindexed from G/Y/B".

I hope that I've misinterpreted the above article / response, because based on
my limited purchasing history at etsy, it's not at all what I would have
expected.

~~~
gfodor
Yes, see my comment above. We pushed a change this evening that removes seller
feedback from your public profile. Since Etsy was founded you've always been
able to see this information. However, upon considering the fact that we no
longer have issues wrt buyers not paying due to our new checkout system,
combined with the fact that it inadvertently reveals a buyer's purchase
information based upon the action of a seller, we decided it made sense to
remove this view from your public profile.

As far as the visibility of other feedback goes, such as the feedback you make
on a seller, you can mark the feedback as 'private' when you make it to hide
the item involved.

~~~
code_duck
Yes, you've been always able to see this information. But did it appear in
Google with your full name, or did your account show up when people uploaded
their address books? No. It seems Etsy hasn't figured out that dealing with
people's real-life identities is a serious matter.

------
s_mennen
This issue has been addressed:
[http://www.etsy.com/teams/7716/announcements/discuss/6818578...](http://www.etsy.com/teams/7716/announcements/discuss/6818578/page/1/)

+10 for continuous deployment, too.

------
AdamBrownEtsy
Hi, Adam Brown from Etsy here.

Just wanted to let you know that we have resolved this issue. As of right now,
all your purchases and feedback on Etsy are now automatically set to private.

You can read more about it in our blog: [http://www.etsy.com/storque/handmade-
life/rethinking-feedbac...](http://www.etsy.com/storque/handmade-
life/rethinking-feedback-12472/)

------
btucker
When are companies going to figure out that whenever 'social' gets bolted on
to an app there's a backlash? Why do we all keep trying this over & over? Do
we actually see this increasing sales? Or is it just a general feeling that
since Facebook is worth XX billion, we'll be worth more if our experience is
more social?

~~~
subpixel
I don't think it's about the money, as you propose, but more about Etsy
craving to be more than just a place where people buy and sell stuff. They
probably consider that uncool. Perhaps success has gone to their head a bit.

Be that as it may, I can imagine it's not easy to resist the urge to 'swing
for the fences' and 'make a platform play' or 'build a social-commerce
ecosystem' when you're killing it in a space you pretty much invented like
Etsy is.

------
sean11
Some additional clarifications here -- I also work for Etsy:

[http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2011/03/etsy-users-irked-
aft...](http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2011/03/etsy-users-irked-after-buyers-
purchases-exposed-to-the-world.ars?comments=1&start=80#comment-21430678)

------
citricsquid
The responses to this give me such little faith in this community and the
internet in general.

This is a pain, sure, but for everyone to suddenly be saying "if they don't
fix this today I'm never using them again" -- don't you think that's a bit
rash?

Why can't we raise our concerns about this policy with pointless threats that
so little will ever carry through with. This is a relatively small issue, but
one that a lot care about, so make it clear it matters to you but to say "if
you don't fix it I will never use you again" is lame. Explain _why_ this is
bad instead of just saying you'll never use it again. It seems so childish.

~~~
holdenk
It seems like a reasonable response to say "if they don't fix this today I'm
never using them again", etsy took information which people had assumed was
private and made it public. If they respond quickly and take steps to ensure
something like this doesn't happen again then I might consider using them
again. One of the fastest ways to influence a profit driven enterprise is to
make it clear that there actions mean you will no longer give them money
(either by no longer shopping on etsy or listing on etsy).

I also take issue with your statement that "this is a relatively small issue",
while the items I personally bought on etsy are fairly mundane I don't want my
shopping history to be easily googleable. How would you feel if the local XXX
store started posting pictures of all of the customers in the news paper (or
even just putting them up on the web)?

~~~
citricsquid
Yeah, so they can explain _why_ it's a problem for them. If Etsy know why
users are concerned they can work out a suitable solution. For example, how
does "Yep. That's pretty horrific. Never buying on Etsy again." help at all?

~~~
holdenk
I could see that possible being a concern where the reason why people are
upset isn't obvious, but this is not one of those cases.

