
Emotional resilience and burnout in leadership - jonnymiller
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18FfZ86PGA_uSFf425EzKXAmiFQLFBPqjqPN7iu1TZRw/edit?usp=sharing
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haswell
As someone who has just started a 4 week break spurred on by a burnout-induced
breakdown at work, this is very timely. I do wonder if it’s reasonable to
think that 4 weeks is enough.

I’ve struggled with mental health issues for most of my life due to complex
developmental trauma during childhood, and in 2020, I’ve found that it’s very
difficult to tell the difference between work burnout, residual issues due to
my trauma history, impact of world events, etc.

One thing I do know for sure: research like this is so encouraging.
Normalizing the conversation about mental health is so important.

~~~
malux85
I have had burnout in the past, and I’m sorry to say 4 weeks is likely not
enough.

For me it was about 1 year to recover.

Sure I could have returned to work after a month or two, because I would no
longer have been “exhausted” physically, but going straight back into it would
have burnt off that top layer of rest, and still revealed the ruined core
within, to truly heal it took a year, then my excitement for programming came
back, the excitement about not being able to sleep because there’s so much to
enjoy, and the pure joy of creation

I hate that it took a year to come back, being hyper industrious this long
period killed me. But I am grateful that it came back.

I appreciate not everyone has the financial ability to take a year off. I
didn’t either, but I was lucky that I could adapt a simple, frugal existence
to survive. I support UBI or whatever form of support anyone can give people
who burnout because it’s real and it’s painful.

I wish you all the best in your recovery, and wrote this to tell you there is
light at the end of the tunnel

~~~
rhombocombus
I took 6 months off after a bad case of burnout and I think you are spot on at
1 year. About 6 months after going back to work (and clearing my plate of a
lot of superfluous BS) I finally felt like I was beginning to hit my stride
again. It was a big financial hit, but in the grand scheme of things it would
have been far worse on my long term career prospects had I not taken that time
away. Six months was, in my opinion, the bare minimum for the kind of burnout
I was experiencing.

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davesque
While I see that this research is aimed at leadership positions and this must
surely be a problem, I feel obligated to point out that the issue of burnout
could be an _even worse_ problem in non-leadership positions.

It seems that a lot of the suggested solutions (take time off, be more honest
about your emotions, etc.) are necessarily things that are difficult to do for
people who are not in management positions. Requesting long blocks of time off
or being forthcoming about your emotions are easily things that can be used
against you in employee reviews and other similar situations.

In cases of _severe_ burnout, the situation is more dire since people earning
a lower salary might simply not be able to step back from work to take a year
off, for example (something that was suggested by another poster here).

~~~
Aqua
While I understand the intention to highlight the other side of the problem,
all these issues are significantly more severe for people in leadership
positions.

I can't imagine taking more than 2 weeks off from work. These solutions aren't
really solutions unless the person in question decides to quit their job.
There is no snowballs chance in hell that a company will tolerate absence of
their management staff that is longer than 4 weeks. A replacement or
substituion would be required fairly soon.

Being open about one's emotion in a leadership position is a ridiculous
advice, it's obvious that the authors have no idea what they're recommending.

~~~
alxlaz
> There is no snowballs chance in hell that a company will tolerate absence of
> their management staff that is longer than 4 weeks.

I've worked in places where, at any given time, at least one something-
something manager was on a one- _year_ sabbatical. One of them literally
requested it -- and got it -- in order to spend more time with their daughter,
who was going to college the following year, since that was their last chance
to spend quality time with her for a few years. Lots of people in a non-
management positions have trouble attending their kids' graduation ceremonies
if they're out of state -- getting a whole year off to see them off to college
is pretty much science fiction.

Yes, they generally didn't leave smack in the middle of a project, but there's
a lot of no man's land in-between projects.

I don't understand how any of this is surprising. Justifiably or not, benefits
and perks are clustered around leadership positions, that's literally one of
the reasons why people are seeking them.

Plus, in many large companies, it can easily take 6-12 months to recruit
someone for a leadership position. Granting three-month vacations to the
people you already have is a really good idea.

~~~
hammock
Manager? How high up were they?

~~~
alxlaz
Way closer to a junior dev than a C-level position ;-).

Edit: one-year sabbaticals aside, which aren't that common outside large
companies, longer vacations are normal simply because extra paid vacation days
are a standard benefit you get with a promotion.

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LeonW
I wish every leader gets access to these frameworks and takeaways. The #1
issue I face with every single client I've worked with over the years as an
executive coach is exactly what they are pointing out here: that dealing with
our emotions and inner worlds is the biggest challenge of all. Learning to
deal with that has the highest ROI on both success and fulfillment/happiness
compared to any other activity for a leader imo.

~~~
jonnymiller
Thanks Leo, we have you to thank for introducing us to the concept of
'emotional debt'. I totally agree that for the majority of us, navigating the
inner-world + increasing self-awareness has an absurdly high ROI on
success/fulfillment.

What I also find fascinating is how running a company or leading a team appear
to be an incredibly efficient vehicle for surfacing one's own sh*t—and once
this new perspective is adopted—it becomes more potent than any self-help
program out there for one's own personal growth.

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zloof
Really relate to this. I shut down my startup in April. On paper, we ran out
of money.

Behind the scenes, I finally paid the toll/ burnt out after 1-2 years of
constant unexpected, unpredictable shocks. As a solo founder with investors,
there was no escape, no one to run things while I took time off, and no way to
leave without ending the company. At points, if my phone buzzed with a text
message, I would go into a panic attack, expecting another problem.

I’m now reading a book on the impact of trauma on psychology and while my
experience was nothing compared to people who went to war, etc - I see a lot
of similarities. Eg there are external triggers that shock your body without
your control.

One of the frustrating parts was that I knew it was happening as it was
happening. I had the language to identify I was burnt out, had a coach, a
therapist, tried to leverage a support network, etc. I do wish there were more
solutions for this.

At a minimum, it’s good that this issue is getting talked about more and more.
An important requirement to take a sabbatical as in the example in the paper
is having buy-in from board members, investors, or team mates, so getting more
people on board with mental health is key.

Question - curious if anyone has seen any books on burnout recovery. Thus far,
4 months in, it’s quite a long process.

~~~
alm1
it's very individual and you may not find a "recovery template". Personally, I
find that best remedies are 1) attaching yourself to a bigger goal, where even
"at least I tried" and "at least I've advanced X area by a few steps" are
fulfilling narratives. 2) finding something no matter how small, where you
excel. Hobbies are great. Maybe your startup is a mess, but your bird dog yoga
pose is pure perfection. (1) helps deal with the shocks of failures and (2)
helps refill your confidence tank to try at the problem one more time.

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curlyQueue
Just my tidbit:

I am 8 months into my journey after severe burnout (decided to take n amount
of time off till I felt “right” last December).

I am not a founder, but have worked in high caliber roles for the last few
years (I am still fairly early in my career). My last job was at a YC company.

I started out thinking it’d be 2 months. Then 4. Then it turned into 6. I
panicked a lot in the beginning, I am used to overworking or nothing. It just
took time, and things started to fall into place mentally (and even
physically).

Now I’ve accepted that at a year, I believe I’ll be ready. I’m happy to report
I feel motivation creeping in - and my creative wheels have been turning. It’s
really about where to channel things next. It is the most refreshing and
rewarding feeling in the world, to see light at the end of the technical-block
tunnel.

If I’m completely honest, there are still days when I dread the thought of
returning to the screen, even when I don’t want to - but those days are less
and less. I’m extremely fortunate to have been able to do this.

Burnouts are like bad breakups - our nerves are likes wounds, and it just
takes time to heal them after putting them on overdrive for extended periods
of time. The emotional toll is taxing, a high and illogical price to pay when
you consider resting like we are designed to do. Just my two cents, good luck!

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KennyHanson
This is really insightful, thanks for sharing.

I've had my own challenges with burnout. It's why I ended up leaving the
corporate world. I've been working on a startup for about a year and while I
feel a lot better, I have noticed that I'm not taking any time off. I
fortunately have a good group of coaches & mentors around me now that are
looking out for me, which has been life saving. I will definitely dive deeper
into the report and use some of these tools to build resilience for myself and
my team.

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mlthoughts2018
Despite the praise, I don’t see much of value. This is taxonomic in nature,
giving you some loose categories to decompose sources of stress and emotional
debt, but tons of research has been done in these areas, and this survey is a
bit contrived with not very much data in the scheme of things.

None of that is a big deal really, but what bugs me is nothing in the document
offers concrete strategy or tactics to resolve emotional debt or burnout.
Advice like “be self-aware” and “go for a walk” and “get enough sleep” is
_terrible_ because _everyone_ is already trying all that and burnout hits you
specifically when circumstances prevent you from adequately “just” doing them.

It’s empty non-advice, very similar to saying “eat right & exercise” to a
depressed person.

It reminds me a bit of this discussion of severe life events as a major
explainer of most depression,

[https://grasshoppermouse.github.io/2018/12/16/seven-
reasons-...](https://grasshoppermouse.github.io/2018/12/16/seven-reasons-why-
major-depression-is-probably-not-a-brain-disorder/)

It’s the same with burnout.

You can torture out “shadow” reasons all you want, but it’s really deflecting
from the big obvious fact that un-live-with-able circumstances are un-live-
with-able and you need to actually fix and remove traumatic circumstances. You
should not talk about or endorse “being resilient” to them, because it’s just
victim blaming “you need to take care of yourself” dressed up in pseudotheory.

Honestly I see more harm than good in analysis like this. Especially in terms
of letting corporations and HR departments deflect and ignore fixing toxic
work environments rampant with major burnout stressors, by supplying braindead
platitudes like “go for a walk” or “be self-aware” and even worse saying,
“look our _leaders_ are doing it, so they’re not asking you to do something
they themselves aren’t doing.”

~~~
jonnymiller
Hi, appreciate the feedback (I'm Jonny, one of the co-authors), writing this
we were conscious of framing this report not as a finished artefact, but as
the beginning of a multi-year resilience research study and we fully
acknowledge that it raises more questions than it provides answers.

However, we also did make an effort to outline some concrete strategies for
relieving emotional debt in section 7 and also outlined in the
[wiki]([http://resilient.wiki/](http://resilient.wiki/)), which include
daily/weekly/monthly/annual activities ( _although by no means an exhaustive
list and invite readers to contribute additional suggestions_ ).

> re: _Especially in terms of letting corporations and HR departments deflect
> and ignore fixing toxic work environments rampant with major burnout
> stressors_

This may be well the case in some organisations and part of our intention with
the 'Shadow Stressors' framework was to shed light on those sources of stress
in the 'ambient/external quadrant' which would likely fall under the
responsibility of the organisation's leadership to address.

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lostdog
This is a good discussion of burnout overall, but it's missing a key part:

Sometimes you're in a terrible environment and need to leave. The company you
work for could be terrible, and no amount of emotional calisthenics will
prepare you for trying to breathe on the surface of the moon.

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Whitespace
Here's a handy link to the PDF, which is easier on the eyes than google docs:
[https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KaPv-
yVxjLb8b4WlF0nsAA5b6ft...](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KaPv-
yVxjLb8b4WlF0nsAA5b6ftAsYw3/view)

This was a phenomenal read and led me to ask my own question:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24265697](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24265697)

~~~
jonnymiller
Appreciate that Tom, and yes the PDF is a more readable summary for those who
don't have time to read all the way through the 60+ page Gdoc ;)

And a support group / Slack channel for Software Engineers sounds like a
superb idea.

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known
Protect yourself from Machiavellianism (willingness to manipulate and deceive
others), Narcissism (egotism and self-obsession), Psychopathy (lack of remorse
and empathy), Sadism (pleasure in suffering of others)

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totetsu
On a vaguely related note, the 'How I built this' podcast has recently been
running a 'How I built resilience' series, focusing on how founders and
entrepreneurs are navigating turbulent times.
[https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-
this](https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this)

~~~
jonnymiller
Thanks for sharing this, I'll have a listen!

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lighttower
There are 13 responses from Canada, but _89_ from Toronto. Did the author
intend to write _9_ ?

~~~
jonnymiller
The author did indeed (fixed) thanks for catching that (it slipped by us & our
proof-reader)

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bistro17
cold showers - recommend Wimhoff

