
Emacs maintainer steps down - zeveb
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-09/msg00849.html
======
nanny
Note: this happened almost a month ago now.

See these threads for the discussion on the new head maintainer:

[https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-
devel/2015-09/msg01...](https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-
devel/2015-09/msg01108.html)

[https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-
devel/2015-10/threa...](https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-
devel/2015-10/threads.html#00007)

~~~
tetraodonpuffer
That was a very interesting and long discussion that you linked to in the
second link, in this day and age it was quite refreshing to read an adult and
polite debate where disagreements were discussed without resorting to name-
calling and insults.

Emacs being such an important part of the FSF it makes a lot of sense that its
maintainer should be conscious of this fact and prioritize it accordingly,
even if sometimes that means not making Emacs as good as it could be (see the
clang/gcc discussion in the linked thread).

~~~
temo4ka
Heh, I like how Richard Stallman begins his messages:
[https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-
devel/2015-10/msg00...](https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-
devel/2015-10/msg00234.html)

~~~
x0x0
I dunno, I think that's some bullshit doublespeak right there. He conflates
emacs and the gnu project, while claiming to want the best possible emacs.

    
    
       The GNU Emacs maintainer's responsibility is to take charge of Emacs
       on behalf of the GNU Project, and produce the best possible GNU Emacs
       -- which means, the one that advances our aim the most.
       [...]
       It includes making sure dynamic loading resists GPL violation. [1]
    
    

Non bs would be to say, eg, "the task of our maintainer is to build the best
emacs possible subject to the political goals of the gnu project."

Note that I'm not sharing my opinion of whether this is good or bad; I just
dislike bs.

[1] [https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-
devel/2015-10/msg00...](https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-
devel/2015-10/msg00234.html)

edit: I take it back; you're talking about the message to the NSA? I skipped
over everything in brackets while reading...

~~~
thaumasiotes
I don't think you're justified in reading in your own definition of "best",
_when RMS defines it himself right there in your quote_. If you're prepared to
agree that the best possible chocolate mousse is probably "good" in ways that
are incomparable to the best possible steam locomotive, then all you have in
your comment here is misleading rhetoric.

Kind of funny to then sign off with

> I'm not sharing my opinion of whether this is good or bad; I just dislike bs

~~~
x0x0
the thing is, words have meanings. Writing

    
    
       we want to create the best X (*)
       [...]
       * NB: not the best
    

or

    
    
       we want the best X (redefinition of best)
    

is bs

Finding mangling language to deceive dumb is orthogonal to my opinion of the
political goals of the gnu foundation.

~~~
_delirium
How is it a "redefinition" of best? What was the original definition? Unless
you add some qualifier, "best" for a software project doesn't have any kind of
objective definition. For a company it might be "most profitable", for a
newbie it might be "easiest to use", etc. There are a ton of criteria that can
go into it. RMS helpfully explains in broad terms what in his opinion would
constitute the "best Emacs".

~~~
x0x0
In the context of avoiding widely desired features in order to preserve the
political goals of the gnu foundation, it's straightforward to understand.

------
jwr
Stefan's stewardship resulted in a much-improved Emacs. He did a very good
job.

~~~
michaelhoffman
I'm really sorry to see Stefan go. The rate at which Emacs improved while he
was maintainer contrasts quite strongly with the stagnation of some years
before (6 years from Emacs 21 to Emacs 22).

~~~
agumonkey
Infrastructure changed a lot. major emacs packages are now upgraded everyday
(I use melpa "rolling release"), so different than the emacs distribution
every x years. Not to reduce Stefan role in emacs quality and liveliness.
Seeing the praise he received says a lot.

~~~
philsnow
How does that work with long-running emacs processes?

I generally keep a daemonized emacs or two running the entire duration of my
uptime. If package A depends on a certain behavior of package B (but doesn't
eagerly load it), if I start emacs, load package A, wait some duration X,
package B gets updated, then I load package B, will A break?

If so, is that a failure of A for not eagerly loading B, or a failure of the
dependency system for not letting A declare that it wants a particular version
of B, or something else?

Sorry, I have not really dived into package.el all that much and the
documentation is somewhat fragmented since everybody customizes it the way
they want.

~~~
agumonkey
I don't know much either, I had folder issues many times (package-v1 still
loaded trying to open .emacs.d/elpa/package-v1/some-file even though
package-v1 has been deleted and now only package-v2 is on disk.

I remember a few elisp level error after upgrades.

------
davidw
I've been using Emacs for 20 years, I realized. If you think about all the
different things that come and go so quickly in this field, that's a pretty
amazing run.

Thanks Stefan!

~~~
chetanahuja
22 for me. Damn I suddenly feel old.

~~~
jeffbarr
You guys are kids. I used MINCE (Mince is Not Complete EMACS) in 1981.

~~~
dctoedt
> _You guys are kids. I used MINCE (Mince is Not Complete EMACS) in 1981._

If we're going to get into I-can-top-that territory here <g>, I used some
version of Emacs and Brian Reid's SCRIBE on a DEC-20 machine in 1980-82. (I
was a law student; the AI guys at UT Austin's CS department let me have an
account to experiment with word processing for the law review -- a grateful
shout-out to Dr. Mabry Tyson, a grad student at the time, if by chance he
reads this.) Then The Final Word [1] on a Compaq PC clone to do camera-ready
copy for my first book. At my law firm I wrote an Emacs keyboard emulator for
Word Perfect for MS-DOS (and posted it on CompuServe), then another one for
Microsoft Word for Windows.

</obnoxious>

Now if I could only do more than pitiful coconut-headphone programming in
Emacs Lisp ....

[1] [https://goo.gl/d9MaKH](https://goo.gl/d9MaKH) (Google Books archive of
1983 review in PC Magazine)

~~~
praneshp
You were a law student, then a lawyer, and found time for all that? Bravo!

------
unknownzero
I would encourage anyone who clicks the link to read through the thread.
Pretty heartwarming to see the goodbyes, a definite mid-day boost :)

~~~
laurentoget
The tone of that thread definitely makes contributing to emacs development an
appealing project.

~~~
username223
I've made some trivial contributions (enough to require copyright papers,
barely), and can confirm that it's a smart, positive community. There are the
usual few kooks, and you absolutely must work within RMS's strict ideas on
software freedom, but it's nowhere near LKML hostility and dysfunction. The
regulars, including RMS, operate in and assume good faith.

~~~
tux3
Is LKML generally hostile to newcomers and not assuming good faith? I heard it
had issues, but not this one.

~~~
bobjob
They are only hostile to newcomers not willing to learn what is important for
the project. Things like bug free code, code that does what is supposed to do
in a way that does not interfere with other kernel parts, ...

------
laurentoget
Good to know there are people stepping down off of open source project
leadership roles without throwing a tantrum!

~~~
jordigh
Emacs is a GNU package. While you are correct to call it "open source", its
maintainers prefer to call it "free software", in order to emphasise freedom.

~~~
epistasis
Better to call it a GNU package, to emphasize the GNUness. GNU's definition of
freedom is quite specific, and not my definition. Better to call it libre, as
there is less confusion.

~~~
jordigh
It's no more specific than any definition that forbids others from taking
freedom away.

------
seigel
Heading over to vi? :)

~~~
meatysnapper
liVIn la VIda loca

------
rurban
All this over rtags[0] not in melpa/core? Typical RMS drama, but I see his
point, and he reacted quite defensively. Not as aggressive anti-clang/apple as
before.

0:
[https://github.com/Andersbakken/rtags](https://github.com/Andersbakken/rtags)

------
ilaksh
I remember in my C++ class around 1997 the professor was saying emacs was more
a way of life or operating system than just an editor. He was only half-
kidding.

In the past 18 years I imagine the functionality may be even more
comprehensive, if that is possible?

------
melling
I guess this will impact the Emacs 25 release?

