
Richard Stallman and the Fall of the Clueless Nerd - janvdberg
https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of-the-clueless-nerd/
======
forgottenpass
Here's a probably-apocryphal story about San Francisco. The cultural tolerance
and open-mindedness the city was know for happened because at some point in
history the need for dockworkers was way, way stronger than any superficial
differences that employers might otherwise discriminate over if the labor pool
was larger. At a time when discrimination was the open and explicit norm, that
lack of exclusion grew out into the societal attitudes across the city.

Tech was once a place where we lived with weirdos ranging from unconventional
appearance all the way to downright unpleasant to work with. There was a lot
of work to get done, and goddamn we were going to figure out how to get it
done with the people we had.

Fast forward to the 2010's. We hire for conformity across the board, some
places even acknowledge the strictness of that part of their selection
criteria and call it "culture fit." It's a very dictionary-definition-but-not-
political-alignment conservative time. The outliers have all gotta go.

~~~
Daishiman
We realized that lone hackers aren't actually the tremendous geniuses who can
accomplish dark magic on their own.

The profession has changed. We no longer build low-level constructs that are
leaps and bounds ahead of prior versions, but incrementally take existing
building blocks to find solutions for problems that are ever more social in
nature.

Having worked with several lone-wolf hackers, I am glad we are no longer
afraid of pointing out shitty behavior.

~~~
forgottenpass
I tried to write that post about contemporary standards with wide enough room
to avoid singling out one archetype and proceeding to disparage them by
contemporary standards.

But you found it; as it turns out everyone on the spectrum from
"unconventional appearance all the way to downright unpleasant to work with"
is a cartoon-cutout "lone wolf". Ya got me.

~~~
Daishiman
The only ones who are being singled out in recent times are those who are
downright unpleasant to work with. I still see all the same quirky characters
getting well-paying jobs.

------
ameixaseca
> Instead of considering the pain of a young person treated in such a manner
> [...]

I find it really odd this myoptic view: he is defending a coworker, which is
not alive anymore to defend himself. He did not say the victim is lying, he is
talking about how Minsky possibly didn't do anything wrong himself.

Is everyone aware there was a protest against the ones involved at MIT
(including Minsky)? How would you feel if someone protested against you if you
were innocent?

> [...] opining that 14-year-old girls have free will [..]

Not in the US, but that does not apply to a good number of countries is
Western Europe, South America, etc.

Now, I do not agree with everything Stallman said, but he has the right to be
wrong. Why can't he be wrong? Is he not entitled to an opinion which does not
conform to the majority?

Silencing people we don't agree with is a slippery slope, specially when
appealing to some absolute morality standard. I see this happening too much
lately, including here.

~~~
LiquidSky
>Now, I do not agree with everything Stallman said, but he has the right to be
wrong. Why can't he be wrong? Is he not entitled to an opinion which does not
conform to the majority?

You're really asking two questions here. Is he entitled to his opinions? Sure.
Is he entitled to maintain his position while holding those opinions?
Different question.

Or, to put it another way, is someone entitled to having any opinion without
facing any consequences?

>Silencing people we don't agree with is a slippery slope, specially when
appealing to some absolute morality standard.

The "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy, but more importantly neither you
nor anyone else expressing similar views actually believes what you wrote. If
Stallman had written, say, that he believes Jews are subhuman vermin and need
to be exterminated, there would be zero question he should be fired and
neither you nor anyone else who isn't an actual Nazi would be leaping to
defend his right to express that opinion.

~~~
ameixaseca
There is a fundamental difference in your example in the fact that it calls
for action/violence.

If he had said, for instance, that every child needs to be molested, that
would be more in line with your example. And that would no longer be
acceptable.

Outright racism and similar views are indeed less tolerated nowadays, but this
is a whole discussion by itself. I'll just add that, from my POV, they cross
the line from the "opinion realm", which together with a number of other
arguments justifies non-tolerance of these views.

------
salawat
So to anyone who hasn't read the actual email chain, here is a link.

[https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420...](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-09132019142056-0001.html#document/p20)

Most. Of the press reporting is absolutely terrible with regards to accuracy.
Please read it first before passing judgement.

------
ohiovr
Nerds geeks and dorks like me have never had an easy time in life. Now we have
mobs to consider.

~~~
kilo_bravo_3
“I think it is morally absurd to define “rape” in a way that depends on minor
details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old
or 17.”

If an employee at a major company sent out the previous sentence in a
"company-all" email would he still be employed, after having been given a
"talking to" regarding comments he made about pedophilia several years
earlier?

If nerds, geeks, and dorks think that the following series of events is
evidence of a "mob mentality", they need to retreat from public discourse:

1\. A student posts a link promoting an upcoming event protesting the way that
donations from Epstein were covered up by MIT administrators and calling for
their resignation.

2\. Richard Stallman chimes in defending Minsky. Saying, among other things,
that rape and sexual assault require force (they don't).

3\. Several commenters take offense to that.

4\. Instead of shutting up, Stallman DOUBLES DOWN.

5\. Commenters rightly point out that discussing matters like this in a public
forum is unprofessional and may tarnish the reputation of CSAIL.

6\. Stallman resigns when people start looking into the matter and find all of
the pedophile stuff on his website.

~~~
diffeomorphism
> (they don't)

He seems to be complaining about terminology (it is Stallman after all). To
give an analogous example:

Person A: Minsky downloaded some music and is thus a pirate and robber.

Stallman: "robbing" requires force and this did not happen on the high seas.
You are only using these words to make Minsky seem violent and dangerous in
addition to describing the allegation. I think that word choice is not okay.

Stallman has very strong "opinions" about what words should mean and which
ones should be used, even if the rest of the world disagrees, and always
doubles down.

------
moocowtruck
the article talks ". His inability to understand the hurt that comes from
insensitivity "

but the title is fall of the clueless nerd?

~~~
sawaruna
Didn't read the article but where's the contradiction in your quote? Inability
to understand and clueless are close enough.

e: My mistake, clarified below.

~~~
GonzaloQuero
The contradiction is that "clueless nerd" is pretty insensitive, so for an
article preaching about the hurt that comes from it, well, sounds weird.

~~~
sawaruna
Oh that's what the commenter was pointing out, my mistake.

------
mytailorisrich
Failing to blindly follow the herd is not being insensitive.

~~~
RankingMember
I feel like his defending pedophilia in cases where a "child consents" is a
good argument for why sometimes the herd is right. His words are insensitive
to those who are victims of pedophilia because it minimizes the impact and
implicates the victim as being potentially receptive to the act.

~~~
concordDance
As a side note, it would be nice if we could actually use the proper terms for
things. "Pedophilia" is a sexual attraction, the term you are looking for is
"child molestation".

Honestly, I think the overreaction to willing child sexual interaction does
more harm to the child in many cases than the original acts (e.g. "victim"
labelling, attacks against someone close to the child and removal from their
life, being brainwashed into thinking something horrible happened to them
until they believe it is horrible).

~~~
DanBC
> I think the overreaction to

Luckily we have experts who have thoroughly debunked this NAMBLA recruiting
point. And this point has no relevance to the topic, which is about a child
who was coerced into sex against her will.

~~~
concordDance
This is somewhat off-topic, true.

Do you happen to have anything more googlable than "experts have thoroughly
debunked this NAMBLA recruiting point"?

~~~
DanBC
Something reasonably recent in a high impact journal:
[https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0...](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366\(19\)30286-X/fulltext)

~~~
concordDance
I appreciate you going to the effort of finding a link, but I can't find a
breakdown between coercive and non-coercive abuse (and the consequences
thereof) in that link (which was central to my comment).

Could you point me at where in the article I could find such a breakdown?

------
wtdata
This article start right away by lying using the disinformation machine that
is setup about these mob outrage issues. Right away in the subtitle: "The
controversial pioneer of free software resigned from MIT over his remarks on
Jeffrey Epstein and Marvin Minsky."

"his remarks on Jeffrey Epstein" were none, zero, nada, zilch. Stallman
addressed Minsky in his remarks. [1]

But sure, the pit is setup, let's burn the guy because it's the mob culture in
which we live on at the present and well, it's a guy, a white guy, so he must
deserve some kind of punishment, right?... Even if not for having said what
almost everyone joining the outrage mob thinks he did say.

[https://itsfoss.com/richard-stallman-
controversy/?fbclid=IwA...](https://itsfoss.com/richard-stallman-
controversy/?fbclid=IwAR2EcxaMWXZnwU5GOJ4jbuiQrqpdRUmYlQkyGF2FZrA61M1r8onFm0fxssc)

