
British holidaymakers 'traumatised' after arrest at US border - smacktoward
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50050467
======
aidenn0
One thing I've noticed with the culture of law-enforcement in the US is that
there seems to be a mental divide of people into bins of "criminals" and "not
criminals."[1] People in the second bin get treated reasonably and people in
the first bin get zero benefit of the doubt.

By breaking the law, these travellers got sorted into the "criminals" bin and
are now treated like shit. In addition, the high punitive nature of merely
being arrested means that probable cause has replaced due process in our
system. If a LEO treats you like a criminal (i.e. like human garbage) and has
probable cause to do so, you are left with essentially no legal recourse.

1: There's also a 3rd bin of "law enforcement" but that is tangential to this
article.

~~~
throwaway_law
>By breaking the law, these travellers got sorted into the "criminals" bin and
are now treated like shit.

Only its immigration law so its civil not criminal law.

That's the biggest mental divide I come across, there is a certain group that
is very quick to label people as "illegal immigrants" or "illegal aliens" or
just plain "illegals". Of course the intent is to convey and suggest illegal =
criminal. This group can't wrap their mind around the fact immigration status
isn't a crime.

~~~
aidenn0
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325)

IANAL, but up to 6 months in prison for first infraction under Title 18 (which
is US Criminal code).

There are _additionally_ civil penalties.

~~~
throwaway_law
What I said is "status is not a crime." Illegal entry into the Country is a
crime, whether you are a citizen or not, its a crime.

Nevertheless, these people were not charged with a crime or illegally entering
the Country, nor does Immigration Court have jurisdiction over criminal cases.

They are currently being held in an Immigration Detention Center and facing
removal (deportation), thats civil, not criminal.

If they were charged with a crime, they would 1st go to criminal court. It
happens all the time, an undocumented person commits a crime (of fraud or
moral turpitude), gets charged, found guilty, serves time, then upon release
from jail/prison ICE is there to meet them, detain them in a Immigration
Detention Center/facility while they face the civil Immigration case.

~~~
aidenn0
Just because they weren't charged with a crime doesn't mean they weren't
arrested for a crime. People get arrested for crimes they are never charged
for all the time.

[edit]

> The occupants were arrested for illegally entering the US without
> inspection. During processing, records revealed the two adults that had
> previously been denied access to the US, CBP said on Tuesday.

Source:

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-
canada-50067575](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50067575)

~~~
throwaway_law
>People get arrested for crimes they are never charged for all the time.

Yes and the point is we don't call those folks "illegals."

You responded to my comment, specifically:

>This group can't wrap their mind around the fact immigration status isn't a
crime.

Your pointing to a criminal charge that has nothing to do with my point. Sure
citizens and immigrants alike can commit crimes, including illegal boarder
crossing, but illegal border crossing has nothing to do with immigration
status. Immigration status is itself not a crime.

~~~
aidenn0
I was responding to the first half of your comment, not the second,
specifically:

>> By breaking the law, these travellers got sorted into the "criminals" bin
and are now treated like shit.

> Only its immigration law so its civil not criminal law.

[edit]

And to respond to your second half, colloquially the word "illegal" is used to
refer to civil matters all the time (e.g. illegally parked car). Not all
undocumented immigrants are here illegally, but those who would be legally
deported if discovered are.

~~~
throwaway_law
>the word "illegal" is used to refer to civil matters all the time (e.g.
illegally parked car)

That's referring to a thing not a person. You would not label the owner of
that illegally parked vehicle as an "illegal", "illegal car owner", etc... If
a person illegally breaches a contract you don't call them a "illegal
contractor". The term "illegal" is applied to undocumented immigrants because
it fits a narrative.

>By breaking the law, these travellers got sorted into the "criminals" bin and
are now treated like shit.

Going back to your illegally parked car, do we put the owner of that illegally
parked car in the criminal bin and treat them like shit. Of course not, that
would be ridiculous. Undocumented immigrants should be extended the same
courtesy, and even if detained and put into civil removal proceedings they
should not be treated as criminals or like shit for that matter.

> Not all undocumented immigrants are here illegally, but those who would be
> legally deported if discovered are.

Sorry, I don't know what your trying to say here. Any undocumented immigrant
can be detained and subjected to removal/deportation proceedings at
anytime...they don't need to commit any crime for this to happen.

------
_bxg1
U.S. Border Patrol has become a government-sanctioned ring of thugs living out
a power fantasy. Nothing more. Disgusting.

~~~
velox_io
A grey area where you don't have any rights, if they don't like anything about
you they can just put you on the next return flight.

That's if they let you fly there in the first place. I know someone who was
denied access because they had a criminal record from over a decade ago, even
though it was a minor offence (no prison sentence). This is a UK citizen, so
you can imagine how much more difficult it is for someone from a less
favourable country.

This is advice for Brits from the US Embassy: "Can you advise me if my arrest,
caution, conviction will prevent me from traveling visa free and registering
under ESTA? We cannot advise whether a traveler’s specific situation will have
a bearing on their eligibility to travel visa free under the Visa Waiver
Program. Our advice is that if you have ever been arrested, cautioned or
convicted you apply for a visa."

Cautioned! You don't even need to be convicted or even arrested for an
offence.

------
aazaa
> They say they were driving with family members on 3 October when, to avoid
> an animal, they veered onto a small road.

> A police officer then pulled them over, told them they were in the US state
> of Washington and arrested them.

Horrible and inexcusable experience to be sure, but the explanation for how
they ended up in the US needs some work.

~~~
rtkwe
There are loads of spots along the border there where the US/Canada separation
is only a grassy median [0]. So it's odd but not unbelievable.

There's an even more extreme example to the east near Vermont where the border
runs through individual buildings in the town of Stanstead [1,2] and there are
just white lines on some streets you're not supposed to cross.

[0]
[https://goo.gl/maps/XasmFG9Ms6FJUUsRA](https://goo.gl/maps/XasmFG9Ms6FJUUsRA)

[1]
[https://goo.gl/maps/5aWrrN5TjuE8ennS7](https://goo.gl/maps/5aWrrN5TjuE8ennS7)

[2] [https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/stanstead-town-
bor...](https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/stanstead-town-border)

~~~
mikepurvis
Pretty funny that there's no street view for the laneways crossing the border
in your second line. The SV driver was like "yeah nope, not going there."

~~~
daveslash
Honest question: How are people _supposed_ to cross the border right there?
Clearly there's a maintained and passable road there -- there's a stop sign,
and then a white line where the border is. Are you supposed to have some pre-
approval like TSA pre-check? Call ahead? Stop and wait for a Border Agent to
come running out of the library? Go by _better to ask forgiveness than ask
permission_?

~~~
beerandt
Self reporting is a thing for citizens. Some unmanned crossings have
phonebooths that directly connect to an agent.

Edit: I'm not sure that these still exist as a standalone thing. They may have
been phased out after 9/11.

------
crooked-v
I wonder how much money the US government is going to waste on arresting,
holding, processing, and then deporting people who would have turned around
and left if asked.

~~~
tantalor
Wrong question... right question is, who is enriching themselves on this
policy?

~~~
_bxg1
I don't think it's anything so elaborate as that. I think it's simple sadism
on the part of the thugs. They just like exerting power.

~~~
senderista
Can confirm, I was detained by the INS back in the 90s, with my US passport in
hand, because I didn't look "American" enough. After holding me for a couple
hours I was dismissed with no apology and no explanation, though a customs
official helpfully explained that I "looked like a terrorist".

------
tantalor
> it has even damaged our relationship

Might have a case for lawsuit arguing alienation of affections:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alienation_of_affections](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alienation_of_affections)

------
wil421
@dang Can we get this article flagged? If I wanted something like this I’d
visit /news or /worldnews.

Immigration and the political climate in the US is very hot right now. It’s
not the reason I read HN, if you want your rage fix read elsewhere.

> Hacker News Guidelines

What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting.
That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a
sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual
curiosity.

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters,
or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-
topic.

~~~
_bxg1
Significant geopolitical events have become a mainstay of HN, for better or
worse. This one is a landmark example because it falls outside of the pattern
people have (sadly) grown accustomed to.

Edit: The second sentence was referring to the significance of the event (and
why it would therefore be interesting to people on HN); I didn't mean to say
the HN post itself was an outlier in some way.

~~~
wil421
Looks like it was flagged. Thankfully others agreed with me instead of
allowing it to become a mainstay like you suggested.

