
Nervous system manipulation by electromagnetic fields from monitors - firefoxd
https://www.google.com/patents/US6506148
======
justinjlynn
Please note that one does not have to prove anything in regards to the actual
functionality claimed. The patent office is perfectly happy approving your
anti-gravity device if it is novel. Keep this in mind (if you'll excuse the
pun) when evaluating designs found there.

~~~
didibus
I always felt like patents shouldn't exist for ideas, but only for
implementations. Having the idea, while sometime novel, is always easier then
coming up with the implementation of it.

~~~
gh02t
On the other hand, it can be hard to take an idea into production without some
of the protection granted by a patent. Look at all the people who try to get
their inventions manufactured in China, only to be beaten to market by a clone
(not that a patent would help there, but ideally it would).

An inventor can't develop their idea if they can't talk to manufacturers
without fear of getting ripped off.

~~~
kutkloon7
Well, one could argue that this is how competition works. If someone else can
manufacture the same thing at lower cost, they deserve the market advantage.

Of course, this idea doesn't give credit to the inventors and benefits
copycats. I just wanted to mention the idea.

~~~
tacostakohashi
If someone else can manufacture the same thing at lower cost, then the
inventor / patent holder is going to want to outsource their production to the
lowest cost producer.

The lowest cost producer does indeed enjoy a market advantage in the market
for manufacturing.

~~~
gh02t
Want to, sure. But you usually sign a contract, you can't just change.

------
tinix
> The observed effects include ptosis of the eyelids, relaxation, drowziness,
> the feeling of pressure at a centered spot on the lower edge of the brow,
> seeing moving patterns of dark purple and greenish yellow with the eyes
> closed, a tonic smile, a tense feeling in the stomach, __ _sudden loose
> stool_ __, and sexual excitement, depending on the precise frequency used,
> and the skin area to which the field is applied. The sharp frequency
> dependence suggests involvement of a __ _resonance mechanism_ __.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note)

~~~
rubyfan
What happened to _don’t be evil_?

~~~
Klathmon
This isn't Google's patent, it's just linked to the actual patent via Google's
patent search.

~~~
rubyfan
Ah good catch. The google link and google stuff all over the page defeated my
ability to read the full patent application.

------
tbrownaw
After attempting to read that, I'm _fairly_ sure it's not just talking the
normal expected effects of watching things on a screen - porn makes you horny,
scary things make you shit your pants, PowerPoint puts you to sleep, etc.

But the language is somewhat impenetrable, so I'm not _completely_ sure.

~~~
andai
How come?

~~~
westmeal
It's referring to humans reacting to what's on a screen but the actual
document is using 'legalese' like language to make it seem more amazing than
it is. For instance if pornography was displayed on screen sexual arousal
would naturally follow. Like I said I'm not sure if this is a joke.

------
rhythmvs
The patent holder appears to be an unidentified pseudonym:
[https://www.quora.com/Who-is-Hendricus-G-Loos](https://www.quora.com/Who-is-
Hendricus-G-Loos)

> “All devices are used for Mind Control projects run by CIA or other
> intelligence agencies. A group of researchers (under the name Dr H Loos)
> were actually a group of hired professionals for researching and inventing
> such devices which could be developed and used for mass mind control,
> PSYOPS, behaviour modification later by CIA.”

~~~
anfractuosity
I'm curious why they patented their research, rather than keeping it hush-
hush.

~~~
throwaway91111
Possibly because research elsewhere is approaching their work independently.

~~~
munin
The US patent system accommodates classified patents:
[https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s120.html](https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s120.html)

~~~
marvy
How can that work? You need a security clearance to read them? What if someone
else invents the same thing before the patent expires?

~~~
mschuster91
> What if someone else invents the same thing before the patent expires?

Government will offer you a nice sum of "keep quiet money" and an NDA, you're
getting hit with NSLs, your patent is outright seized by the state, you're
getting threats e.g. of tax or immigration checks... the ways government can
intimidate you are endless.

For the obvious, legal, way see
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act)

~~~
marvy
So basically you're saying that any independent invention of the same thing is
also classified.

~~~
mschuster91
As soon as you try to patent it, USPTO will look up if there's a similar thing
- and if there is and it is "red-flagged", you're screwed...

~~~
marvy
But suppose you DON'T try to patent it. You just invent it and try use it or
sell it. What then?

------
im3w1l
As the idea is from early 2000, I wonder if this is CRT only. Modern screens
have much weaker fields iirc.

~~~
darkmighty
Yes, CRTs used electric fields to accelerate electrons, no such things with
LCD/LED displays. Not to mention those claims are probably bogus.

------
kadavero
Pedantically speaking, all the text and images you see on your screen are
electromagnetic field and are manipulating your nervous system.

[https://xkcd.com/722/](https://xkcd.com/722/)

------
guyfawkes303
Well, that sure is terrifying.

~~~
nisa
It's probably bullshit. If there would be an effect that can be reliable
recreated using only a CRT and certain modulations it should not be hard to
setup a double blind placebo controlled study and become famous. I presume
there was and is a lot of research regarding electromagnetic waves and their
influence on the human body and if you exclude effects that are caused by very
high energy electromagnet waves like heating tissue or effects on the brain
when using a helmet and lot's of energy nothing was ever reliable shown that
would work on a CRT.

Hell, if brown note was real don't you think in the last 50 years either bored
students would have attempted to implement that on campus or law enforcement
would use it to disperse crowds. If this would work reliably every facility
that has access to equipment to create such waves would have probably a setup
to expose the new guys/students to these effects for the amusement of all.

Maybe I'm naive but extraordinary claims warrant extraordinary evidence. If
this works we would have heard about it by now.

But well - if you search for the patent you are pretty much in tinfoil hat
land - no amount of scepticism or reason will help there.

~~~
carapace
It is not bullshit. You are naive.

~~~
carapace
[https://books.google.com/books?id=V7wt3Sqj_X8C&lpg=PP1&dq=su...](https://books.google.com/books?id=V7wt3Sqj_X8C&lpg=PP1&dq=subliminal&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=subliminal&f=false)

"Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior" By Leonard
Mlodinow

...

------
mtgx
Sounds like something Facebook would be interested in.

------
clavalle
I'd love to see the original research just out of curiosity. But it seems to
me that even if externally generated electromagnetic energy did have an
effect, by the time you had some behavior you could observe, it would be like
trying to make a toy sailboat move by dumping water near it from a
firefighting plane.

------
otto_ortega
A bit of off-topic but... Does anybody knows about some some good and
relatively cheap service to apply for a patent on the US? Something on the
line of: You provide the idea/description/explanation and they take care of
the rest?

------
exikyut
There are a few relevant things this reminds me of. The most interesting thing
in this list is actually preventing me from having a job, so if you only read
one point, start at the big paragraph halfway down. I would appreciate it.

\- "Tempest for Eliza"
([http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/](http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/)) is a Linux
program that shows rapidly alternating patterns of black and white on your
CRT. If you sit a correctly-tuned AM radio nearby you can hear music. The
latest version of this program can even transmit MP3s. Examples:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlVM9xqGKx8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlVM9xqGKx8)
(original version, sound in 2nd half);
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xPfAnPW2wY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xPfAnPW2wY)
(MP3 version - FLICKERING/FLASHING, epilepsy warning)

\- Van Eck phreaking has been mentioned elsewhere in here; I also remember a
YouTube video of someone showing that it's possible to get _something_ out of
an LCD ribbon cable via simple RTLSDR:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1C3WB8c0o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1C3WB8c0o)

\- Mythbusters did a thing on the brown note concept. Myth.

\- I'm yet to play around with
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats)
at some point, but I don't have any headphones.

\- I've put the first thing this article made me think of last: EMR
sensitivity. I have this, it drives me nuts. I'm using a laptop with Wi-Fi
right now and I'm completely fine, but I can't use PlayStation 2s, and I have
absolutely no idea why. My nervous system goes ballistic: I get incredibly
anxious, I feel like I've been awake for 3 weeks without a break, I can't
focus on anything because I'm so exhausted and everything feels like a chore,
and most catastrophically, my cognition falls completely apart. I also have
unbelievable amounts of doom/gloom (I feel like I'm dying from the inside
out), either triggered from the other effects or as its own thing.

I would describe myself as reasonable, not particularly unhinged, and with no
major emotional issues. Probably the most interesting/telling thing that's
happened with this issue is that I once told a family member "I don't know
what's going on, but I might need to get off the computer" one day - and then
a little while later I coincidentally discovered that a DVD player that had
not been turned on for years had been accidentally knocked and turned on (it
had a push on/off mains switch on the front panel). FWIW, I've tried both the
original and slimline PS2s, and the slimline one uses an external PSU brick -
which I'm fine with, if it's not connected to the PS2. Hence my great
confusion (I thought this was a simple "can't use power supplies" thing).

I had to stop using all technology for 4 years (2008-2012) after using a PS2
for about 3 days and it having a catastrophic impact; it was, of all things,
_fish oil_ that made a quantitative difference and let me use computers every
day again. I don't get it at all, but the theory I now have is that the
myeolin sheathing around my nerves is somehow damaged. (Perhaps tellingly, at
one point while writing this text both of my arms twitched upwards. My jaw
sometimes twitches as I talk as well.)

I'm reminded of a TV show I saw years ago that was talking about how the
repeated lapping of waves against an oil platform's pylons created resonance
that caused the pylons to shatter. On a similar note, the wineglass thing also
works (even with the human voice) if you use an amplifier.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I cannot work due to this issue - I have no idea _why_
PS2s, DVD players and other random devices cause this problem, so I can't tell
an employer what I unambiguously can and cannot handle.

Unfortunately, I know of nowhere in Sydney, Australia that is interested in
digging into it. If anyone wants a guinea pig or test case, I'm in. I'd like
to get a job!

~~~
xenadu02
Let me be perfectly clear: You most likely have a real medical condition of
some kind. I do not question or demean your experience in any way.

With that said... no one has _ever_ shown actual EMR sensitivity in double-
blinded trials. Never. Not even once. When you hide the devices behind a
curtain people who claim EMR sensitivity can't tell if the thing is on or off.
Trials have been done out in the woods, inside faraday cages, and under all
kinds of crazy conditions. It never matters. We can definitively say medical
science has ruled out EMR sensitivity as a real thing.

You may very well have a nerve degeneration condition. It is even possible
that fish oil helps this condition. You may be sensitive to electronic whine
from power transformers which is a purely audible phenomenon; plugging in the
power brick without the PS2 drawing any power wouldn't induce the same whine.

You might also have a form of epilepsy or similar condition triggered by 3D
graphics. It could also be a form of motion sickness that some people get
(typically much worse with VR rigs).

Here's the thing: our bodies are evolutionarily tuned to be wary of anything
that might be dangerous. Any ancestors without that instinct were killed off
long ago. If you hear something better to imagine it is a ghost and run. If
it's just the wind, no harm done. If it was a predator sneaking up on you then
that reaction might save your life. If you've ever gotten the flu after eating
a certain food then felt repulsed by that food for months or even years
afterwards: that's the same mechanism at work. Your lizard brain just knows
"that food == sick". You can understand all the rational arguments in the
world but your lizard brain still says "nope, not taking any chances: barf
time". For our ancestors living in the wild this is a sensible reaction. Maybe
those berries are poisonous, maybe you just happened to pickup a virus around
the same time. Better safe than sorry.

Because you had a bad experience you attributed to EMR (specifically the PS2)
your brain now induces those symptoms when you are around a powered-up PS2
even though EMR itself isn't real. I stress again that this is a real physical
condition that you have little control over. I have zero doubt that it feels
absolutely real to you and causes you huge amounts of stress. Just know that
there are therapists who can help. You can learn to overcome that reaction.

I know this will offend some people but we have to face the truth. Eyewitness
testimony isn't reliable. Anecdotes aren't data. Just because someone honestly
believes EMR is real doesn't mean it is.

~~~
exikyut
Thanks for the preface :)

I've wanted to do the woods/faraday cage/etc thing for ages, because I want to
concretely debunk/prove this whole thing. If I debunk it I can say "look, I
have a condition, and there's no link", whereas if I can prove it, I can be
one of the few non-kooky testcases :) (as I noted, I used to be crazy kooky
myself - it seems that this condition attacks the nervous system itself, so
suddenly you have the situation where the "all systems okay" infrastructure
itself is being compromised, and pandemonium - paranoia, persecution
complexes, etc - ensue.)

I am very very curious how I'd test for nerve degeneration issues.

The PSU idea you suggested is compelling, but, the slimine PS2 used an
external brick, while the original used an integrated supply. For me to feel
_exactly the same_ using both indicates that I'm being exposed to something
that is generating the _exact_ same frequency profile. The likelihood that the
brick and the original PS2's internal PSU use a design that spit out identical
RF/EM profiles is... I won't rule it out, but I'd argue it's low. The slimline
PS2 just needs 8.5V (IIRC), testing an alternative supply shouldn't be hard,
but it's not on my priority list due to lack of budget :P

About the 3D graphics idea: The PS2 has an on/standby button on the front, and
a mains switch on the back. If I put it in standby, I still feel drained; it's
the moment I flick the switch at the back I go "WHEW". (And, for completeness,
if the PS2 is on but the TV is off, I also feel drained.)

Two things about the evolutionary thing: one, that whole thing is insane; it's
responsible for innumerable superstitions, haha. Secondly, your theory is
interesting, and I have a very relevant subjective experience - except instead
of perceiving my body as going "nope, fight/flight time", I perceive "SOS,
this thing is causing you more distress than you have the ability to handle,
RUN" \- so essentially a 100% flight response, but not only that, it's a
"flight with explanation" response, in the sense that I don't just think _run_
, I know _why_ I need to run. I can understand a "RUN AWAY" signal getting
through from the lizard brain, but I find it novel that I perceive more than
just a basic _run_ signal.

I've tried using the PS2 on exactly one occasion several years after my first
experience - incidentally, when I spied a slimline PS2 at a 2nd-hand shop and
took it home to test. Different PS2, same response. I turned it off after
about half an hour (I didn't try the original as well).

The huge problem I have is that, the whole time I used the first PS2 for a
couple days, I could distinctly feel that something in my head was breaking
apart or being worn down (????). Also, at some point (around day 2 or so),
something hit some kind of threshold, and after that I began getting the same
symptoms from my PS2 as from my computers, which was why I had to stop using
them. I still feel exactly the same "everything's breaking apart" thing when I
turned the 2nd PS2 on. So, yes, my refusal to do extensive testing does create
a self-fulfilling prophecy here, BUT, unless a doctor/practitioner can give me
something (a drug/device/alternative thing/whatever) to reverse any impact, I
can't risk losing access to the computer again.

(About the "something hitting some kind of threshold" thing, that's the
doom/gloom I mentioned in my first comment. That reminds me, the "impending
thing" sense is huge. I don't know what the impending thing actually _is_ ,
but it gets really bad.)

I will definitely note that my only exposure to 3D games has been from this
PS2, with some minor exposure to things like Doom or Wolfenstein 3D when I was
given some ancient DOS machines a few years ago. So I do have a very
negative/depressed/pitiful perspective when I see gaming discussed, but that
ties mostly into my circumstances (not being able to buy GPUs to test) rather
than me seeing the PS2 as entirely at fault.

Another fun story from the 2009-2012 era: I found a Casio 9850GB+ graphing
calculator in an op-shop a few years ago. (I since found a TI-83+ in a
disposal store, and discovered I hated its interface compared to the Casio,
lol.) This thing used a triple-layer dot-matrix LCD that could display three
"hues": yellow, green and blue, I think because each film had a thin layer
over it for that color. Anyway, after using this calculator one day, I
happened to be staring at a wall and noticed all kinds of swirling patterns in
front of my eyes. I blinked a few times to best weigh up what I was looking
at, and concluded that there was something wrong with my eyes. It went away
after a few minutes though.

That also reminds me - I used to have bipolar (I managed to find an
alternative therapy product that nuked it completely, even after I stopped
taking it) and exposure (if you could call it that) would tend to provoke
bipolar manic phases (I had the minor/small kind, I forget what type it was).
I don't know why; one theory is that my system would go "we need extra
resources to cope with this" and trigger mania (why?!), another theory is that
the nerve excitation itself would trigger it. I don't really know.

------
Tharkun
Some credible research on the influence of magnetic fields on migraines is
being done, iirc by Markus Dahlem. So while this may sound rather fanciful, I
suppose it's not impossible?

------
memracom
You need to watch the film, "Kingsman: The Secret Service" starring Colin
Firth. Something very similar to this was used to induce people to murder
others.

------
divbit
Not that I think this would be abused or anything, but I remember when
technology seemed sweet and innocent just a couple of years ago

------
andai
> Observed effects include [...] sexual excitement, depending on the precise
> frequency used

I gotta get me one of these

------
im3w1l
1/2 Hz? I wonder if music with 120 beats per minute trigger that.

~~~
jbg_
1/2 Hz is one oscillation every 2 seconds. That would be 30 per minute.

------
DrScump
(Published January 2003)

------
derefr
This is basically talking about the type+frequency of "flashing" imagery that
triggers photosensitive epilepsy—but more subdued, yes?

~~~
aeleos
From what I understand, its the actual magnetic field produced by the monitor
that when pulsated at various frequencies causes these effects. I don't think
its related to epilepsy, but I don't know if the reasons why it works are
known.

~~~
dom0
No, this is about the EM field. The magnetic field of CRTs is very weak (so
weak that it is dwarfed by nearby rail power lines which have a rather weak M
field as well; so weak that you have to recalibrate for monitor movement
relative to earth's M field).

I doubt this works, at all, for a variety of reasons.

------
thinkfurther
We haven't made sufficient "progress" until we have Blipverts. As "Bryce
Lynch" said in that Max Headroom episode: _" It's not my problem. My brief was
to find a way to stop channel switching. I mean, you know, I only invent the
bomb, I don't drop it. Ha ha." [he gives that quick shrugging grin of an
uncertain adolescent]_

The thing about going out with a bang vs. a whimper.. come to think of it, I'm
pretty sure it will be a shrug.

