

Show HN: My first startup, making premium long distance cyclewear - yuvaraman
http://www.redwhite.cc/

======
sah88
You may want to consider condensing/minifiying your JS/CSS and using a CDN for
images. After 10 minutes the website still isn't loaded and there are a huge
number of blocking image transfers that are going very very slowly.

12+MB for a landing page is also probably a little on the heavy side of
things.

~~~
acveilleux
So much this. I gave up on the load, it was painfully slow. Like I was back in
the late 1990s modem days.

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi acveilleux, i'm sorry for the slow load times. We've made some tweaks and
it should load quicker now :)

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yuvaraman
hi hari_sem3. Its a totally original design. Its common for most new cyclewear
brands to go to the Far East, pick out a factory OEM design, slap on their
logo and start selling.

We did it the painful way by old fashioned sketches, 2D pattern design,
fitting sessions and by tweaking over 10 dimensions for every size.

We engaged a manufacturer to help us get preferable prices on fabrics (they
buy in bulk) and to stitch together each piece to our Bill of Materials and
Specifications. Its why it took us 6 months to develop these.

We manufacture in Eastern Europe with help from our Italian manufacturing
partner. Each piece is then shipped back to Italy for a final quality
inspection before flow out to us in Singapore for distribution.

~~~
paulftw
This information makes a lot of sense, and should be on the landing page as
(one of) the main selling point(s).

~~~
yuvaraman
thanks paulftw :). Theres a tonne of information and we didn't want to flood
our customers with too much technical detail.

We are releasing a series of technical articles on our website, so stay
tuned!!

Do read my super large writeup above. It will be condensed and published with
lots of images on our site soon.

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gsands
Congrats on your first startup, but I really recommend you address the issues
with your site immediately.

Like others, the top image(s) never loaded for me and I'm on a 50mbps
connection.

I also wasn't even aware there was anything below the fold either, since you
have such a nice sticky footer!

If I were you I'd just scrap the top section while you get the compressed
image decisions made so the products are front and center when users hit the
page.

Feel free to msg me, email's in my profile.

~~~
rday
Second this.

Thanks for indicating content below the fold!

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hoopism
The image took over 25s to load for me. Just FYI.

~~~
stefap2
I gave up after 2 mins.

~~~
yuvaraman
I'm sorry for this stefap2. We have made some tweaks and the site should load
more quickly now. Take a look :)

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Kluny
You say that they're designed for incredible fit but how can that be possible
when there are only three size variations? People come in more than three
sizes, after all. And are these available in women's sizes at all?

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi Kluny,

We currently offer in only 3 sizes and are releasing larger sizes soon.

There are only 3 size variations given the type of fabric and construction.
For example, the size S fits a 165cm tall guy with a size 29 waist and ALSO
fits me (177m, 70kg and a size 33 waist). The material is a 220gsm nylon based
lycra with 18% elastane.

Its absolutely perfect for fitting a wide range of body sizes and we
complemented it with a detailed look at 10 key dimensions which make up the
sizes, allowing us to fit 90% of cyclists.

Of course, there will be odd sized person who requires a larger or a small
size. We are working very hard on sizing for these types of people and are
close to perfecting them. It takes time to gather a variety of people, measure
them, make prototypes and test.

Its also very expensive for a small company, so we chose to focus on 3 key
sizes for now.

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ThatOneDan
Looks nice and all, but what sets you apart from Rapha/ Castelli/ Assos/ Louis
Garneau/ Primal/ all of the other companies that made mid-high range bibs?

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi ThatOneDan,

Good question and we get asked that ALL the time!

Okay, simply put, many brands have offering at multiple price points.
Obviously to cater to different budgets, tastes, aspirations, wants etc (its a
rather long list).

We are different. We chose to focus on a BibShort specifically for long
distance cycling. This is our niche and what the RedWhite brand stands for.

------
fishnchips
GET [http://code.jquery.com/dist/jquery-
migrate.min.map](http://code.jquery.com/dist/jquery-migrate.min.map) 404 (Not
Found)

~~~
sah88
.min.map files are only requested when you have the dev console open.

[http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/developertools/source...](http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/developertools/sourcemaps/)

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi sah88, thanks for this :)

We are a small team of 2 and we handle customers, marketing, product design,
web development, graphics, 4 social media sites and a blog with content every
week.

Your comments are useful, please keep them coming! We will be working double
time to make the site faster and better.

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dodders
The site claims these bibs are designed for "exceptional fit and performance"
but I suspect you will have to provide more justification to persuade people
to buy these instead of Rapha/Assos/Capo, the current kings of endurance bibs.

AFAIK, all the above brands use pads from EIT
([http://www.elasticinterface.com/](http://www.elasticinterface.com/)) - are
your pads better and if so, why?

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi dodders, the RedWhite BibShorts is our take on what an endurance bibshort
really means. We focus on 5 key areas to achieve this vision and I hope the
detailed writeup below answers all your questions:

1) Chamois 2) End Bib 3) Fabrics 4) Fit 5) Construction

CHAMOIS

The chamois is not from Cytech. Our chamois was selected after a detailed
analysis of all offering from the top european chamois manufacturers. We chose
a chamois from who we think is the most innovative designer currently. Its a
relatively new company that’s using very a very unusual and disruptive
manufacturing process. I will explain below.

The chamois’ construction is unique. Typical chamois’ are built in an old
fashioned way. A 4mm low density foam with a top layer that contacts the skin
is laid down. Next, a 10mm high density foam layer is pasted using a
polyurethane celluloid strip. The third layer uses a 2.5mm foam with another
polyurethane celluloid strip. The entire construction is then warmed up to
200°C to fuse the layers together. The layers are pre-cut before this into the
desired chamois shape. This process stresses the materials and cause hardening
and reduction of breathability. Also, with age and use, the layers tends to
peel apart as the celuloid strips age.

The chamois we use is manufactured using a more modern process that ensures
the resultant chamois is 1 solid, formed piece with maximum breathability and
durability.

The chamois’ layers are laid together and the entire fabric layers (called a
laminate) is put into a cutting machine which cuts out the chamois’ rough
shape. The pre-shaped cutouts are put into a Carving machine which further
refines the chamois’ shape and removes all excess material which is recycled.
Finally, the cut and carved chamois is put into a shaped mould (with gel
inserts) and placed into a Thermic Moulding machine which gently fuses all the
layers while shaping the 3D features of the pad without stressing the used
materials. This creates a 1 piece, modern chamois thats perfect for:

-repeated use without typcial “chamois fatigue” where the chamois loses its shape after hours in the saddle and ceases to work.

\- a long lasting a durable chamois that can be hot washed at 60 deg C.

-A soft breathable chamois with all foams and fabrics unstressed.

END BIB (GRIPPER)

The latest trend is the PGE (printed gripper elastic). Many brands use this
instead of the outdated silicone strip. We have experimented with PGEs, but we
find that they start stretching and curling after 6 months of use. You need a
certain amount of polyester fibre content in the PGE to reduce creep stress
(polyester fibres don't stretch and help anchor the elastane fibres to prevent
stretch fatigue). We wanted something better and found a material that uses
thick polyester and elastane fibres (lycra fibres are finer) with many
microdots of silicone on 1 side. Each dot works together to give an even and
non tacky grip on the skin, while the lycra base (which we oversized) ensures
your skin still breathes and doesn't over constrict your thighs.

This uses the theory of surface area. By using microdots across a wide
gripper, you achieve 2 fantastic results:

-Increased surface area between the dots that allow the skin to breathe.

-Increased gripping surface area through the dispersed dots that ensure a “gecko” like grip on the skin. Works well with hairy legs, even better with shaved legs.

FABRICS

We use Italian fabrics from MITI. Again, this is carefully selected. We went
through 12 prototypes with various combinations of fabrics before finding the
perfect one. The fabric we use for our Bibs is a 220gsm matt black fabric with
20% Lycra POWER (an elastic fibre with compressive qualities) and 80% nylon.

There is a reason for this choice.

When we set out to design The Bib, we wanted to achieve a natural next-to-skin
feeling when you wear them. The material should be soft, supple and highly
breathable. We also wanted the fabric to have good anti-abrasion qualities.
Nylon fibres are superior to Polyester in this manner.

We are often asked why we chose the color black for our Bibs. Why don’t we
have beautiful graphics on our Bibs? This too is a conscious decision.

Graphics are printed onto stretch fabrics using a process called sublimation
printing. The ink based graphics are printed onto a paper, from which they are
heat pressed onto the fabric to allow the colors to adhere to the individual
fibres within the fabric. This process is only possible with polyester based
fabric. Nylon fabrics simply melt when subjected to heat from the sublimation
printing process. However, we didn’t want to compromise on our design
principle for The Bib and stuck with a nylon based fabric to achieve the
superior comfort unattainable when using printable lycra.

The Mesh fabric is equally great. Its red to avoid it looking dirty after
multiple use (white bibs turn brown after a while). Its really stretchy and
very soft on the skin. Its a material that needs to be patterned well to bring
out its best qualities. You can't skimp on it - which is why our Bibs use a
solid back mesh with no fancy ventilation cutouts. Use too little, and it
won't work well in holding up The Bibs.

FIT

Its very tempting to go to a manufacturer and ask for an existing model and
simply slap your brand on it. We chose not to do this because we felt that the
fit and sizing must also take into account the materials used. A higher
quality fabric allows us to dial in a custom sizing and reduce panels simply
because it stretches and holds the skin better.

Our size S is 2 cm shorter than our Size M which is 1.7cm shorter than our
size L. Why? We found that these dimensions fit the top 90% of individuals'
anatomical dimensions. Also, its what we found from practice after 12
prototype and many fitting sessions. Our size S fits a 165cm guy with a size
29 waist AND it also fits me (i'm 70kg with a 33 waist). The materials stretch
that well. I chose the Size M because i personally like less compressive
shorts.

Going beyond dimensions, we thought hard about the shape of the panels of
lycra and mesh to use. We understand the 2 main pain points for most people
when getting a Bib:

\- Fitting the gut. Lets face it, not all of us have bodies like Chris Froome.
Most of us carry a slight belly, sometimes more. A “pro-cut” bib-short simply
doesn’t work.

-The bib-straps fit great off the bike, but when tucked into an aero position, they sag and flop about.

To address the issue with fitting for regular people, we put in a front panel
of lycra, just below the navel.

This panel avoids cutting horizontally below and into the belly and gives a
generous amount of room for the belly to expand out. The added benefit of this
is increased breathing room as we tend to breathe with our diaphragm when
exerting ourselves. On top of this, the design doesn’t make The Bibs any less
fitting for people who want a tight, well fitting pro-cut Bib. This is the
beauty of the pattern design we worked on.

The mesh is patterned to follow the curves of the lycra, instead of simply
being a strap that stitched on after the short part has been designed. The
design intent was to create a mesh that hugs the body all around and remains
like a skinsuit even when the user goes into the drops. When you use our Bib,
you will notice that the straps remain tight and comfortable instead of
buckling and flopping about.

CONSTRUCTION

We use flatlock stitching throughout the Bibs - even beneath the shorts (the
part that contacts the saddle). This increases durability even with regular
rubbing with the saddle. The stitching we use is a high density flatlock
stitch that requires extremely experienced hands and special stitching
machines.

Our Bibs don’t have a seam on the inner thighs (that usually contacts the
saddle). This is a common failure point on most Bibs and we could only removed
this because the fabric allows us to stretch a whole panel of Lycra to wrap
the inner thighs. It also improves comfort.

KEY POINTS :

1) Its a long distance Bib Short designed specifically for that purpose in
mind without breaking the bank. It uses an innovative gripper, a plush chamois
made using modern techniques and a well thought out pattern design that’s put
together using 100% flatlock stitches.

2) Our retail price SGD210 online inclusive of all taxes and shipping. This is
a mid priced bib short that punches above its price class.

3) We use a 220gsm MITI Lycra fabric. Its nylon based rather than polyester to
helps us achieve the desired natural feel on the skin.

4) We manufacture in eastern europe in a factory owned by an Italian firm. We
did it the painful way by old fashioned sketches, 2D pattern design, fitting
sessions. The manufacturer helps us get preferable prices on fabrics (they buy
in bulk) and to stitch together each piece to our Bill of Materials and
Specifications. Its why it took us 6 months to release it.

~~~
dodders
That's a great response. Thanks.

I suggest that you put this detail on your website - it's a compelling
argument for the product (apologies if it's already there but I couldn't find
it if so).

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi Dodders,

I've writted up a lovely article about this and have just put it up on the
site :

[http://www.redwhite.cc/bibs-detailed/](http://www.redwhite.cc/bibs-detailed/)

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filleokus
Looks nice. But to chime in with all the other comments, why should I chose
your product over the ones I currently buy?

I'm not sure on how custom printing stuff on this kind of fabric works, but I
would be really interested in a service that allows me to pick colours. Or
perhaps add my name or something to small quantities of bibs (like 1 or 2).

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi fillokus,

The lycra we use can't be printed on. And that's a good thing!

A printable lycra is polyester based. Ours is nylon. The difference is the key
to a lycra that feels luxurious to one that doesn't.

Some tech facts:

Graphics are printed onto stretch fabrics using a process called sublimation
printing. The ink based graphics are printed onto a paper, from which they are
heat pressed onto the fabric to allow the colors to adhere to the individual
fibres within the fabric. This process is only possible with polyester based
fabric. Nylon fabrics simply melt when subjected to heat from the sublimation
printing process. However, we didn’t want to compromise on our design
principle for The Bib and stuck with a nylon based fabric to achieve the
superior comfort unattainable when using printable lycra.

Nylon too is a less complex molecule (without the dreaded Benzene ring that's
in Polyester). This means that from a chemistry standpoint, its a less rigid
polymer, achieving that soft and compliant feel.

I wouldn't say why you should choose us over one of the big brands. That's a
personal choice after all! But, i will say that we are a super niche company
that's thrown 6 months of time into making a product that works on your 6 hour
ride.

Do follow us on Instagram (redwhite_apparel) and see what we do there :)

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AndrewKemendo
As a former competitive cyclist, I always get excited about new bibs and the
endbib thing looks interesting.

I am curious what the purpose of the Singapore page is though:
[http://www.redwhite.cc/singapore/](http://www.redwhite.cc/singapore/)

Were you guys given money by Singapore or something and that was a
stipulation?

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi Andrew,

That article's purpose is to introduce customers to our home base. It was in
response to many enquiries asking if Singapore was in China - believe it or
not!

No, we received absolutely no funding. RedWhite Apparel is entirely self
funded by 2 passionate cyclists. Its a significant investment from our savings
and I believe with our current focus on customers, quality and our tenacity,
we will become as well known as the big guys.

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ryanSrich
Great idea and what appear to be quality products. Can you talk about how you
manufacture and supply these?

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi ryanSrich,

Certainly :)

We manufacture in Romania. The fabrics are supplied to us by MITI from
Urganano, Italy. The Pad (chamois) is trucked in from our Italian chamois
supplier.

Trucking is fast, cheap and with EU carbon regulations - also environmentally
friendly. All our suppliers are not more than 4 hours from the central factory
- keeping our supply chain tight and efficient.

The central Romanian factory is owned by our Italian manufacturing partner who
stitches the fabrics together according to our design files.

The final Bibs are quality inspected in Romania and are trucked to Italy for a
final quality inspection before sent to us in Singapore for distribution.

We currently sell online and locally through a network of dealers. While we
work to get these sold globally at your local bike shop, the online store will
be the way for you to get hold of these.

Every order is packed by one of us (2 founders) and sent to you from Singapore
:).

------
davidw
Cool! Why shouldn't I just get a pair of Castelli shorts, though?

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi David,

That is a personal choice :). Castelli do make great products - undoubtedly.

However, we are a different company. Our niche is - Long Distance BibShorts.

When you come to us, we want you to have absolute confidence that what we give
to you is a BibShort that is designed specifically for your long ride. No
compromise has been made in achieving this end in the design process.

For example, we don't print on our lycra because its a nylon based fabric
that's softer and more luxurious than a printable polyester based version.
Comfort reigns king over graphics and that's a choice we made happily to
achieve the end goal - long distance comfort.

The chamois isn't one that's used by many other brands. We searched for a non
mainstream manufacturer. The chamois is manufactured using a Thermic Moulding
process - no one else makes a chamois this way and what you get is a plush,
breathable chamois that lasts and doesn't flatten out after long hours.

~~~
davidw
I didn't ask to be a jerk or anything, I'm just asking the same question that
others will.

Castelli and others produce shorts made for professional cyclists, who do long
rides too.

You know where I see more room for improvement? Winter cycling gear. There's a
_huge_ difference between good stuff and shitty stuff. Example: Milano Sanremo
a few years ago when it was snowing, and lots of riders were riding with non-
team issue Castelli Gabba jerseys because they're one of the best things going
for cold weather racing.

I guess that's not a problem for you in Singapore, but here in Italy, winters
can get cold and wet.

I don't know... Italian cycling clothing manufacturers are the best in the
world (which is why you source from them), and I'm just not seeing a
compelling reason to go with someone else.

You might look at Rapha - they've managed to carve out a niche despite not
being from a traditional cycling nation.

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi David,

No problem at all! I do understand where you are coming from.

We're not denying the quality of Castelli and other brands of course. I myself
have ridden on these brands and do enjoy them!

But, we are doing something very different by creating a niche within the
apparel industry. And this shows in the choices we make during the design
process.

We've written up a lovely article for your perusal :
[http://www.redwhite.cc/bibs-detailed/](http://www.redwhite.cc/bibs-detailed/)

Regarding your points about winter gear, rest assured we do have great plans
for that. So stay tuned!

I'd also like to get your opinon on a winter bibshort/ tights/ biblongs that
you'd like to see on the market. What features would you value?

~~~
thinkling
For winter use, I have a somewhat unusual take but that might give you a
product that's clearly distinct from competition:

I don't wear knickers or long tights with chamois built in; I almost always
use chamois-less tights over regular shorts. (That lets me mix & match rather
than having pricy gear that I only use a few months of the year.)

Lately I've been using the liners from MTB shorts which have thinner fabric so
the combo is less bulky, but they rarely have very good chamois.

So my suggestion would be to make liner shorts with a very-high-quality
chamois that go well under tights or paired with MTB "baggy" outer shorts.
Great for epic MTB rides too!

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi thinkling.

I hear you and understand what you have in mind. I am of opinion that buying
tights with a chamois is impractical since you only ever bring them out during
deep winter. Anything warmer and its usually BibShorts with leg warmers.

We do have plans to release long winter tights that work well with The Bibs
under them! Using some very special fabrics from our friends over at MITI.
Keep a look out!

------
hari_sem3
Very interesting concept. Where are you guys manufacturing the products? Do
you design these yourselves?

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shiftpgdn
Did you pick the .cc tld since it's what Rapha uses? I imagine that's your
main competitor.

~~~
colbyh
So many cycling brands use .cc domains, not sure who started it. Also the main
competitor for this sort of style is probably more along the lines of
Castelli/Gore than Rapha. I dig the idea, but the aesthetic types are going to
stick with Rapha/SAS/etc.

~~~
shiftpgdn
His page actually wasn't even loading when I attempted to visit it. Just check
and yeah you're right. I wonder when somebody is going to come along and match
Rapha in everything but price.

~~~
nl
_I wonder when somebody is going to come along and match Rapha in everything
but price._

Haven't tried them, but Torm[1] does this. Sportswool, "classic" styling, a
lot cheaper than Rapha.

[1] [http://torm.cc/products.html](http://torm.cc/products.html)

~~~
colbyh
Torm was so Rapha-esque they even got in a bit of trouble for it, I believe.

Twin Six and Road Holland also have some combo of minimal/classic and wool
jerseys for good prices. The former of which definitely has some crazy stuff
as well, but their basics are quite well made.

Vulpine, Cafe Du Cycliste, and a few other euro brands are in the same style
and go on sale somewhat more regularly as well.

------
pmontra
Too slow, gave up.

~~~
yuvaraman
hi pmontra,

We've made some improvements. Do take a look : www.redwhite.cc

------
siddg
is this only available in singapore?

~~~
yuvaraman
Hi siddg,

We well worldwide through our online store at www.redwhite.cc

The indicated price includes shipping and taxes :)

------
yuvaraman
HELLO EVERYONE!

Its been a rather long discussion and I can't thank everyone enough for
joining this conversation with us. I'm Yuva, one of the co-founders of
RedWhite Apparel.

I hope I've clarified all questions, but please keep them coming! If I don't
reply quickly, it means that i'm likely in bed given the massive time
difference.

Rest assured, we aim to reply within 12 hours.

~~~
yuvaraman
Do check out an article we published today to answer most of the questions
here :

[http://www.redwhite.cc/bibs-detailed/](http://www.redwhite.cc/bibs-detailed/)

