
China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains - samaysharma
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-credit/china-to-bar-people-with-bad-social-credit-from-planes-trains-idUSKCN1GS10S
======
eddieplan9
I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread.
Whatever you think the West is doing _is not even close_ to this. The Chinese
government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the
industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from
planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet,
telephone, banks, ability to get any travel document, ability to stay at any
hotel, etc. Let that sink for a bit, before you claim that Google or even NSA
can do something similar.

I am a Chinese expat, but I don't have a National ID. I have a Chinese
passport, but I cannot even buy train tickets online (yet i can ride the
train) with it and I cannot open a bank account in my own country. Things will
get worse with 'social credit' as another barrier because I won't have a
credit history with them.

[edit] removed claim that Chinese expat won't be able to fly in China without
National ID because some say the viral news is a rumor. Honestly i cannot tell
any more.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China
> because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do.

This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous
generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained
permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally
(when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it seems like these
days it isn't necessary to turn in your hukou, but it was in the 90s). A
previous colleague at MSRA was in this boat. It was troublesome for sure, but
he could fly (even a Chinese can fly internally with a passport, as my wife
did when we went from BJ to GZ), open bank accounts (like foreigners can), and
so on. The only thing I know he had trouble with was permission to visit
Taiwan, they couldn't handle a Chinese citizen without hukou, but that was it.

I'm as critical of the Chinese government as anyone, but bad information
really doesn't help.

~~~
whatyoucantsay
Have your extensive comments about the CCP on HN caused you any hassles?

The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical as ML makes
privacy easier and easier to pierce. People who made rational decisions about
the risks of sharing various opinions on a small site in 2010 are now locked
into the consequences a decade later when both technology and political
landscapes have changed.

It would be truly surprising if HN history doesn't eventually play a key role
in someone being imprisoned or executed due to having expressed views that a
country, religion or other organization finds objectionable.

~~~
gus_massa
> _The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical_ ...

Just assume that a few seconds after you post a comment Google, Bing, Facebook
and a few other major Internet sites have scrapped your comment and are
analyzing it.

And there a few aggregators that repeat the HN content and alternative UI for
HN.

And some users make a local copy to run some statistics or detect dupes or
just for curiosity. Some moron even made a Chrome extension to show the
deleted and edited comments in HN.

And assume that the spy agencies of the major countries are making a nice
backup of all your comments.

So after pressing the send button, just assume that there are 30 copies of
your comment floating around.

A delete button only deletes one of them. The idea of Tweeter that you can
delete a tweet and everybody really delete it is hilarious. Just assume the
there is no "delete" button, it's just a "hide" button.

"Deleting" a comment is useful against a clueless neighbor that hates you
because your dog barks too much. If a country with nukes hates you, they
probably have the technology to save a copy of the "deleted" comment.

~~~
whatyoucantsay
What you write is a reasonable precaution in 2018. Many, many HN posts and
accounts were created before the Snowden revelations, before Xi came to power
and before the Charlie Hebdo attack.

Many comments will be and have been mined years after their original posting.
It's truly doubtful any country was logging every HN comment in the year you
opened your account, for example.

------
awakeasleep
To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the
beginning of a new caste system.

Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be
able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on
'the list' and become 'restricted.'

The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of
'untouchables'

~~~
jdietrich
Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of
Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions
as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons
often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once
untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

~~~
DamnYuppie
Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not
felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated
with that.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony)

~~~
jamesblonde
What about 3 strikes in many States?

~~~
vondur
Originally, the 3 strikes laws were to be used only against violent felonies.
I'm not sure how they were able to include non violent offenses to the list.

~~~
labster
Easy. Find one example of someone who stole something three times, then later
murdered someone. Scare people with this fact. Make up a theory about how
larceny is a gateway to violence.

This is, exactly, how the immigration debate is being held in DC. One
undocumented shot and killed a citizen by accident, and now we're supposed to
kick all immigrants out. Visceral emotion is a great tool to optimize society
for corner cases.

------
walterbell
From [http://www.collective-evolution.com/2017/10/26/black-
mirror-...](http://www.collective-evolution.com/2017/10/26/black-mirror-meets-
reality-china-moves-to-rate-its-citizens-using-a-social-credit-system/)

 _" You won’t be eligible for … positions in public office … social security
and welfare … senior level positions in the food and drug sector … sleep in a
bed in overnight trains … higher-starred hotels and restaurants … Your
children … won’t be allowed to attend more expensive private schools …

We have made extreme advancements in health care because people found flaws in
previous practices and had faith that they could improve them. This can be
applied to quite literally every single industry, which is why these ranking
systems could negatively affect growth, innovation, and our entire economic
system as a whole.

If we can no longer challenge our current state of being and question our
surroundings, then how can we continue to advance as a collective? As a
collective, many of our strengths lie in our differences. A diverse society
includes people with all different strengths and brackets of knowledge, but if
we’re all racing to get a better ranking, then we could lose a lot of those
differences in trying to become “people pleasers” and adhering to social
norms."_

~~~
zanny
The CCP is not interested in progress, its interested in maintaining
permanent, absolute power at any cost.

~~~
KerrickStaley
That's not really true. Progress and upward economic development increase the
faith of the public and the Communist Party rank-and-file in the Communist
Party leadership. The Communist Party leadership has a strong incentive to
promote growth.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _the Communist Party leadership has a strong incentive to promote growth_

But Xi Jinping does not.

~~~
darawk
Yes he does. Growth makes people wealthier, which makes them happy with the
government. If China's growth stops, you better believe there will be serious
civil unrest.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
My point isn't that Xi Jinping doesn't want growth. It's that he doesn't want
growth as badly, nor on the same time horizons, as the CCP. If he has to cause
permanent harm to China's productive potential to hold on to power for a few
more years, history suggests he will. This is the reason dictatorships trash
countries and why Deng Xiaoping wisely implemented term limits.

~~~
darawk
We agree then. His primary goal is likely to be to hold on to power. Growth is
definitely only something he wants in service of that prime directive.

------
pm90
The thing that worries me most about the autocracy in China is that all of
these Orwellian measures would actually work and then would be pointed out as
an example to abandon our civil liberties in favor of a system that may be big
brotherly but at least "your kids will always be safe, never be close to any
bad person" (By We I'm referring to Democracies).

It may also be a uniquely Chinese thing too though. China has had very
powerful Central States for an extremely long time (not just the CPC but all
the emperors and what have you). Perhaps that's just the "Chinese Way":
absolutist State which largely works for most of the people?

~~~
woolvalley
You can also bring up japan as a counter-example. It's even safer and cleaner
& it's still a democracy!

~~~
moufestaphio
Japan has a pretty long history of autocratic rulership..

And has only really had once party in power throughout the history of its
democracy (like 3 years or so without):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_(Japa...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_\(Japan\))

Not sure its the best counter example

~~~
nothis
> Japan has a pretty long history of autocratic rulership..

So has all of Europe, though.

------
RubenSandwich
If anyone wants to see some of the negative effects of a persistent 'social
score' that affects real life I recommend this Black Mirror episode:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive).

~~~
wehadfun
Yea that episode the "credit" was objective based on random people's opinions.
According to the article, they claim that you have to not pay fines, or smoke
on a train to ruin your social credit.

~~~
jandrese
Or piss off some random party official, or have non-mainstream political
opinions, etc...

Once a system like this is in place it will be abused. It's practically
designed to be abused. Where is the accountability?

~~~
mrhappyunhappy
It's a recipe for a distopian clusterfuck.

------
dev_throw
This illustrates the difference between having laws and enforcing them. Some
countries have strict laws, but little enforcement, so marginalized people can
break these laws as long as they fly under the radar. With technology, it
becomes trivial to implement enforcement for even draconic laws at a scale
previously unfathomable. Also, they seem to be rolling it out slowly. It
reminds of the metaphorical boiling frog syndome[1], where the frog realizes
what predicament it is in, but too late.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog)

~~~
rrggrr
Next steps:

1\. Extend social credit to non-Chinese living in China. 2\. Expand to
companies and individuals doing business with or visiting in China. 3\. Export
the program to finance dependent nations outside China. 4\. Require companies
depending on Chinese income to enforce the regulations in a 'know your
customer'-esque format.

There will be less resistance to this than one might think.

~~~
wetback
And just like that, Compliance becomes a virtue.

------
echevil
If the author of this article has read the original announcement from either
Chinese government or various sources from China, they'll know the so called
"people with bad social credit" that'll get these restrictions is defined very
clearly, and yet it mentioned only a tiny bit of it in very misleading way.
Many of the actions described in the definition would put you in jail in US.
Whether they're intentionally misleading people is anybody's guess.

There are many paragraphs clarifying the definition either here:
[http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html](http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html)

Or here:
[http://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/201803/16/t20180316_28505546...](http://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/201803/16/t20180316_28505546.shtml)

There is also clearly defined way to lift the restrictions as defined in the
NDRC announcement. Most of the restrictions are removed automatically in one
year. Certainly not "once untrustworthy, always restricted"

~~~
junnan
Finally an original source. I was wondering what the original text of "once
untrustworthy, always restricted" would be. I think a more accurate
translation should be "untrustworthy here, restricted everywhere".

------
stuffedBelly
I am Chinese and I can see how this can be exploited by both vigilente groups
and the government to target individuals using the "spreading false
information" clause alone. There are so many ways to trick people into
spreading false information. More importantly, people are not the one to
decide what is considered "false", the government is.

It might be ok to make people with bad credit harder to purchase non life-
essential stuff such as cars (you heard it, cars are not essentials in many
countries), but they shouldn't be treated as criminals.

~~~
nitwit005
Yep, will almost certainly result in extortion. Take over someone's Weibo
account, threaten to destroy their social score, demand payment. Or just the
usual identity theft to get fines mailed to another address so they go unpaid.

------
johan_larson
To be fair we ban people with felony convictions from huge swathes of jobs,
formally or informally, even if the crime happened decades ago. Also, good
luck finding a place to live legally if you've been convicted of a sex crime.

~~~
bkohlmann
We ban them after due process procedures are complete - which often involves
knowing your accused crime and accuser, lengthy evidence gathering, and
impartial trials.

As I understand the Chinese social capital system, there is no due process,
you may not even know if you've been cited for anything until the punishment
comes, and violations are identified without appeal.

~~~
johan_larson
More than 90% of criminal convictions are the result of pleas, not trials. Few
people can come up with the sort of money needed to mount a serious defense to
a criminal charge. And in some cases the state can take your money up front,
so you definitely don't have the resources to mount a defense.

~~~
bkohlmann
You're right - and the plea process is part and parcel of Western due process.
You're still facing an accuser and know what crime you're being charged for.
You have legal council - even if court appointed - helping you make the plea.

None of which apply under the "social credit" system.

------
seibelj
Truly a dystopia. I hope someday citizens rebel against this nightmare

~~~
ghostcluster
They are

> The number of annual protests has grown steadily since the early 1990s, from
> approximately 8700 “mass group incidents” in 1993[1] to over 87,000 in
> 2005.[2] In 2006, the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences estimated the
> number of annual mass incidents to exceed 90,000, and Chinese sociology
> professor Sun Liping estimated 180,000 incidents in 2010.[3][4] Mass
> incidents are defined broadly as "planned or impromptu gathering that forms
> because of internal contradictions", and can include public speeches or
> demonstrations, physical clashes, public airings of grievances, and other
> group behaviors that are seen as disrupting social stability.[5]

However

> Despite the increase in protests, some scholars have argued that they may
> not pose an existential threat to Communist Party rule because they lack
> “connective tissue;” the preponderance of protests in China are aimed at
> local-level officials, and only a select few dissident movements seek
> systemic change.

Who knows how it will play out in the long run, especially with the looming
demographic problems of their aging population.

------
sytelus
_...committed acts like spreading false information about terrorism and
causing trouble on flights, as well as those who used expired tickets or
smoked on trains.

The move is in line with President’s Xi Jinping’s plan to construct a social
credit system based on the principle of “once untrustworthy, always
restricted”.

6.15 million Chinese citizens had been banned from taking flights for social
misdeeds._

------
phil248
"China said it will begin applying its so-called social credit ... and stop
people who have committed misdeeds from taking such transport for up to a
year."

Here in the US, you can get banned from air travel permanently, and you don't
even need to do anything wrong!

------
jancsika
If someone were given dark money and tasked with destabilizing the Chinese
govt, I can easily seem them doing the following:

* taking half the funds and putting it into think tanks that write pro social credit pieces with an earnest focus on making it more accurate and efficient from a technical standpoint (plus perhaps lobbying for its implementation in the West, for street cred)

* taking the other half and putting it towards anti-govt movements within China, using the info gleaned from the think tanks to provide counter-surveillance techniques

The counter-surveillance techniques will cause the govt to invest in more
surveillance tech and clamp down tighter on the population. That enforcement
will further fuel the anti-govt groups to become more radicalized.

Of course, I'm just armchair quarterbacking this based on vaguely remembering
the news around the buildup and aftermath of the Iraq war. I'm sure the
Chinese government has thought through these problems more deeply than I have.

edit: grammar

------
avcdsuia
Shenzhen gov are using facial recognition to detect pedestrians running
through the red light[0]. Their even release high quality pictures without
mosaic in the first version, just a few days ago.

[0][https://www.stc.gov.cn/facei/](https://www.stc.gov.cn/facei/)

~~~
simsla
These are censored (mozaic), as far as I can see.

I think the social credit thing sounds horrible, but I don't think there's
anything wrong with automatic detection of traffic violations. Traffic codes
are here to help people stay safe, they shouldn't be conditional on people
seeing a cop.

------
pasbesoin
Remember, with the Great Firewall: "China is the prototype." (My words, back
when.)

They started off purchasing and as an initial market as well as testing ground
for Western technology and Western technology companies.

Now, China has gained the technology and sophistication to roll their own.

But that doesn't mean they won't market it, both commercially and to aid their
allies in creating and maintaining similar forms of governance and stability
(at the tip of an connection, if not a gun).

So, they may be building this domestically, from the ground up. Nonetheless,
the expression remains and remains apt, and concerning: "China is the
prototype."

Many people around the world, in government and in private business, continue
to express enormous interest in this type of monitoring and control.

In the U.K., of all places, that "bastion of democracy", leadership is openly
advocating for the ability to monitor and censure all connections.

They are going to control with whom you communicate and associate, by way of
real world penalties and controls.

In the U.S., what greater limit on "freedom to associate" than taking away
one's ability to travel?

"It can't, won't happen here."

Ahuh. Just like outsourcing was going to elevate our employment prospects and
wages. "We'll be the managers."

How did that work out?

Automation is going to get a lot more done with less hands. How do you think
they are going to decide who benefits?

------
pishpash
1\. Yes, Chinese society values different things from Western societies on
average, but there is a wide range of values in each society and a great deal
of overlap with universal expectations, so don't brush it aside as a
difference in culture or political desires.

2\. This is going way beyond tradition or culture. Nobody enjoys this.

3\. It is being pushed through for the very simple fact that it can be pushed
through. Take note: politics is groups of people trying to gain advantage over
others and an equilibrium requires a vigorous defense of the smallest things
that are yours; without pushback you lose what's yours; nobody will grant to
you, only take away.

4\. Norms and ideals matter. This is being set as the norm in China, whereas
other examples in Western countries are at least considered transgressions
against the norm. The delineations are in different places and the outcomes
will absolutely not be the same even if they look superficially similar.

------
jsonne
China is doing this explicitly, but the West has been doing this implicitly
for a while. Doxxing people with the "wrong" opinion and emailing their
employers, friends, etc. I pretty regularly see if on Facebook where someone
says something and their post or a screenshot of their post is shared hundreds
of thousands of times with test that says "make this person famous". To be
clear people should be called out for bigoted speech. An internet lynch mob
though solves nothing and just creates a forever alienated group of people
outside of society with little to no stake in the future. We all, as in
humanity, could use understanding the nuance of stopping bad behavior while
also forgiving people for their pasts. I don't have all the answers, but I
guess I wrote this as it's just a generally worrying trend I see with the
internet overall.

~~~
tome
Woah, there's a difference between an "internet lynch mob" doing it and the
_state_ doing it!

~~~
drefanzor
The state does do it. It's called a criminal record which is strikingly easy
to obtain in the U.S. which has a law for everything imaginable. If you've
ever had any kind of criminal activity, ever, even from something dumb in your
youth, the United States has a log of it, which employers use to discriminate
against that person. Forever. It doesn't go away. The "miscreant" is then
forced either into a life of crime, which puts them into prison or worse.

~~~
mfoy_
A criminal record, while cumbersome and overly-easy to attain, doesn't impose
nearly the same scope of restrictions as this article suggests...

------
Pmop
Bear in mind that discussions about Chinese matters may be rigged by the 50
cent army.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party)

------
jrs95
The good news about this social credit system is that China's self driving
cars will be able to make more optimal decisions about who lives and dies when
a crash is inevitable. Isn't innovation wonderful!?

------
Dove
China has been working on this for a while, and barring people from
transportation is not the scary bit. That's last-century scary. No, it's the
emergence of a new sort of ideological warfare making use of the recent
knowledge developed in gaming industry that is the scary bit. This is a new
kind of threat, something we as humans haven't learned how to deal with.

Here's some analysis from a game designer from 2015:
[https://youtu.be/lHcTKWiZ8sI](https://youtu.be/lHcTKWiZ8sI)

------
otherview
This
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI))
came out almost 3 years ago..

~~~
openasocket
I was about to discuss the same thing! I haven't been able to find other
documentation about it, whether it was actually implemented, or if it applies
to this kind of restrictions. But that has really stood out in my mind as one
of the most outrageously dystopian concepts

------
nmstoker
Putting aside the specifics of the system in China, the underlying issues are
a problem all countries need to explore. On many near capacity public systems
it only takes a few bad actors to completely foul things up for entire
sections, eg delaying a subway line. Traditional social pressure seems not to
work anymore, for instance with this case on a train in the UK:
[https://youtu.be/2mpKu_x2s3w](https://youtu.be/2mpKu_x2s3w) In that case the
train was delayed until eventually the guard said they had to allow the smoker
to stay on the train or it would affect the line! Part of their argument was
there were no signs saying you couldn't smoke on the train (smoking is illegal
inside in any public spaces!)

------
Gatsky
I hope our era will be remembered for something other than the abject failure
of liberal democracy. The US and Europe are struggling/sabotaging themselves,
while Russia and China just consolidate their power. Africa keeps burning.
India will take the Sino-Russian path no doubt.

~~~
castle-bravo
Unfortunately our (speaking as a Canadian) system doesn't seem to be truly
liberal or democratic. Every five years or so, we elect a parliamentary elite
selected for us by the Toronto business community. The the parliament does its
best to distract the public from the true policy objectives of the government
(i.e. growing the fortunes of their moneyed masters by all means necessary).
this system only barely meets the loosest definition of democracy and is
closer in spirit to a republic or an oligarchy. It seems that whatever liberal
tendencies our government has is a holdover from last century and losing
ground to American-style neoliberalism.

What worries me is not that this system might fail, but that it be replaced by
a state-of-the art dictatorship that treats the population as slaves.

------
bawana
This is WONDERFUL! no really. The first step to a world without money .
Imagine a powerful govt AI keeping track of your karma and then determining
what you can access, get or use. There won't be any shortcuts or cheats.
People with a lot of money will be on the same level as people without. The
currency of success will be the help we give to each other. The only way this
can work is of course a powerfully networked AI that is transparent. So if
somebody seems to be at the top of the heap, everybody else can audit his/her
behavior data to see how he/she got there. If this system is not transparent,
then it is just another tool for the powerful to exploit the weak.

------
l3i2
[http://www.asiaone.com/china/woman-china-delays-high-
speed-t...](http://www.asiaone.com/china/woman-china-delays-high-speed-train-
departure-blocking-door)

If you read this article, you will at least understand the reason why they
introduce such law.

With 1.6 billion people, it's common to see chaos when a single person doesn't
follow the rules, that woman in the news is a typical example. She didn't get
any punishment from the railway company, nor the police can do anything about
her behaviour, simply because there is no such law exists. In the end, she got
suspended from her job as a primary teacher!

------
Aunche
This article is typical western fear-mongering. China can already arbitrarily
detain political dissidents if they want to. This "social credit score" is
nothing more than an elaborate system to enforce misdemeanor laws.

~~~
yladiz
> This "social credit score" is nothing more than an elaborate system to
> enforce misdemeanor laws.

I don't agree. It's more about making people compliant with what the
government wants in society, and making those who don't follow the "social"
rules in the country subject to various restrictions, essentially limiting
their freedom if they don't do what the government wants. In essence they're
attempting to legitimize their arbitrary policies by making it about something
vaguely enforceable.

~~~
Aunche
That's what the western media spins it as, but is there any evidence of that?
The examples listed in the article are misdemeanor laws.

------
AboutTheWhisles
Are we sure this is dystopian enough? I love the idea of taking someone who
might be marginalized and marginalizing them even further, but how can we make
sure it is passed down through the generations to their family?

~~~
openasocket
I remember reading about a proposal for China's social credit system, that it
bases your score on the score of your friends (defined based on social media
contacts, who you text, email, etc.). To discourage you from becoming friends
with or remaining friends with someone who has done something wrong in the
eyes of the Party. I have no idea if that was actually implemented, or if it's
the same social credit system used here, but that's pretty damn dystopian.

~~~
Chaebixi
They have some corporation-run social credit pilot projects that apparently
look at purchases and social media activity. No doubt the government-run
program will get that data as well.

------
charlysl
And it's not only that they can do this at all as if this wan't already bad
enough; on top of that neither the media, nor anyone else for that matter, can
discuss/critizice this in public other than to admire it.

Harmony.

------
lolc
So what's the current exchange rate between social credit and Yen?

------
rglover
What a terrifying time to be alive.

------
cinquemb
The systems/databases that will process/store the relevant social credit
information will be prime targets for exploitation as this becomes more
intertwined with practical daily life and automated systems.

Imagine being able to shut out a billion people variably by tampering with
such and affecting the economy to a great degree.

And people complain about the evolving landscape of DDOS attacks now…

------
jakeogh
Now pair that with "basic income". Same thing will happen anywhere that awful
idea is put in place. Got a ticket? No worries; we already deducted it;)

Public transit and free money are just two of many ways to increase the
people's dependence on the state. Next up is the "opportunity" of pre-
programmed cars.

------
wemdyjreichert
China is terrible. Their government is evil. If you're there, get out. If not,
stay out. 'Nuff said.

------
smsm42
Is it already being used to suppress criticism of the government and CPC, or
is it planned for next month?

------
iooi
So if we assume they're getting their ideas from Black Mirror, how much longer
until they start using humans for energy? [1]

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2089049/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2089049/)

~~~
trhway
i think this episode and Matrix got it wrong wrt. what humans would be used
for. It isn't energy production. Given that humans have largest brain with
largest brain/body ratio and with good energy efficiency the opening scene
from Matrix looks to me like racks of GPUs running distributed
computation/simulation.

In the spirit of this episode and the totalitarian nature of China today and
the whole world tomorrow, i think it will be an every [regular] citizen duty
to "plug in" for set amount of hours to run your fair share of social
computing "dapps" and to sync-up/check the thoughts/emotions as well.

The open office enforced hive-style collaboration/teamwork and always-on IM
with implicit contract of immediately dropping everything and lending your
brain is a very-very early preview of that future.

~~~
lainga
Humans-as-CPUs was the original plot of the Matrix IIRC, as pitched by the
Wachowskis. The studio thought audiences would have a hard time understanding
this, so they became D-cell batteries in the film instead.

Ahh, jinx!

~~~
trhway
I wonder - can't they remaster the movie? It wouldn't be an issue for modern
audience given the cloud and Siri/Alexa becoming household notions.

------
juanmirocks
Black Mirror Nosedive
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive))
social-status-like castes, only than in a real bluntly open dictatorship. Bad
times.

------
yakcyll
I get that it's super anecdotal to mention this, but this idea sounds a lot
like the worst oppressive, sadness-inducing systems I read about in school
books, the purpose of which was literally to save people from thinking stuff
like this up again.

------
JudasGoat
I started working in electronics in the late 1970's and as a "drug criminal"
at the time, it became obvious to me that I was working on building my own
handcuffs. I guess I really lacked vision because I didn't see this coming.

------
Taniwha
The main difference between this and the US is that in the US the no-fly list
is secret

------
drumttocs8
I already saw this episode on Black Mirror [0]. Is this a rerun?

[0]
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5497778/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5497778/)

------
olfactory
This sounds horrible, but the "Real Name" movement for online services (such
as Facebook) is an equally insidious American version. When a "real name"
service becomes a financial services company, we have a merging of social
metadata and a conventional credit score.

It does not start out as a dystopian vision. Why should Facebook charge
advertisers money to show ads to people with a 400 credit score? The yield of
many ads is improved when you have hard demographic and behavioral data as an
additional filter.

What's the difference between an Uber Pool rider getting a ride with other
similarly-rated riders? Why should I with a near 5 star rating have to risk
sitting in a pool with someone who has a 3.2 star rating? I certainly don't
want to.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> This sounds horrible, but the "Real Name" movement for online services (such
> as Facebook) is an equally insidious American version.

Add to that Facebook’s blocking you from access to your account unless you
upload a photo that clearly shows your whole face, which has been reported in
recent months. Real name + financial services + facial recognition + is even
worse.

~~~
smsm42
I don't have my face on my FB profile, and nobody blocked me.

~~~
olfactory
It's a dark pattern _nudge_ , not a hard rule.

------
fouric
This is very, very bad.

Now, what can we do about it? What _should_ we do about it?

------
hatsunearu
Truly horrifying. China isn't afraid to use technology and psychology to
oppress its inhabitants in the maximum possible extent...

This is what North Korea would look like if they had money.

------
johnny99
Wow--a crude implementation of Whuffie.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie)

------
red_admiral
Restrictions on flying for people who 'cause trouble on flights' sounds like
something I could support. Especially trouble of the drunken kind.

------
chrischen
So they habe a nationalized yelp for people. If you’ve lived in China you’ll
kmow there’s a big problem with corruption at higher levels and simply bad
interpersonal behavior at lower levels (things like discourteousness and
cutting in line).

Whether you agree or disagree with the implementation, some sorry of
wuantified karma system is probably ne essary to keep people in line.

This is no different from privatized US credit system or a social shaming
system (Chinese wouldn’t respond to shaming), except that this is implemented
in a very Chinese way of being nationalized instead of privatized.

------
polskibus
The big question is :

Is anyone going to sanction countries who bar people like that? Shouldn't it
be human right to be viewed outside any calculated measure?

------
daodedickinson
No different from how Twitter, Facebook, and Google operate. People outside of
the party are systematically humiliated and ground to dust.

------
MechEStudent
They are already applying this to foreigners when selecting possible people to
track, monitor, or engage.

------
jxramos
So if one's social credit score goes too low would they allow you emigrate to
another country?

------
willart4food
Black Mirror?

~~~
mLuby
Yeah, season 3 episode 1 "nosedive"—worth the watch (on Netflix). You don't
need to see any other black mirror episodes to get it. (Don't watch S1E1 1!)

~~~
daveFNbuck
> (Don't watch S1E1 1!)

People always say that but it's one of the most compelling episodes.

~~~
ufo
I think telling people to avoid S1E1 is counterproductive if the alternative
is to start with S1E2. I always thought that one was even more graphically
disturbing.

~~~
daveFNbuck
S1E2 does at least capture the spirit of the show a lot better. If you have
trouble with that one, you probably won't like the show.

------
kwhitefoot
> “once untrustworthy, always restricted”

That's even worse than California's three strikes laws.

------
fspeech
Here are the original documents in Chinese:

[http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html](http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html)

[http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879654.html](http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879654.html)

The documents do not make "bad social credit" (whatever that means) a
punishable cause. There is one clause relating to spread of false information
but it specifically says "false terrorism information related to civil
aviation safety".

There are two classes of offenders. Air travel and luxury/sleeper/high speed
G-train travels are banned; regular trains are not.

The first class of offences pertain to directly violating transport
regulations, like refusing to quit smoking on an airplane, forcing one's way
onto the runway, or refusing to pay for a ticket even after getting caught
riding the train without one.

The second class is credit related and has six categories. The first four
categories are mostly targeted at resourceful people who have misdeeds but
somehow are not criminally punished. One thing that conceivable casts a wider
net is for those that refuse to pay social security insurance premiums or
obtain social security payments through false documents. The fifth category is
about people refusing to follow court orders. The sixth category about
"others" that could be added is more elastic but it did say that changes need
to be published by editing the document.

Google Translate of the six categories:

1\. The party who has the ability to perform but refuses to perform major tax
violations;

2\. In the field of fiscal fund management and use, there is a person
responsible for serious dishonest behaviors such as fraud, false reports,
fraud, fraudulent taking, interception, misappropriation, arrears of
international financial organizations and foreign governments’ due debts;

3\. Those who have serious acts of dishonesty in the following areas in the
field of social insurance: employers fail to participate in social insurance
in accordance with relevant regulations and refuse rectification; employers
have not faithfully applied for social insurance payment bases and have
refused to make corrections; Those who have insurance premiums but have the
capacity to pay but refuse to pay; conceal, transfer, embezzle, misappropriate
social insurance funds or operate in violation of the regulations;
fraudulently forge social insurance benefits through fraudulent or forgery
proofs or other means; and social insurance service agencies violate the
service agreement Or related regulations; refuses to assist the social
insurance administrative department in the investigation and verification of
accidents and problems;

4\. Securities and futures are illegally punished with fines and no overdue
payment; overdue entities of the listed company fail to perform their public
commitments within the prescribed time limit;

5\. The people's courts have taken measures to restrict consumption in
accordance with relevant regulations, or have included the list of those who
have been breached trustees according to law;

(6) Other Restricted Persons Recognized by the Relevant Departments
Responsible persons who commit serious acts of dishonesty in a civil aircraft
shall be clearly identified by modifying the document.

------
meganibla
Finally, The whuffie utopia has arrived.

To everyone scared: go on, keep being misinformed about everything China does.
It’s a common but useless consolation trap to fall into.

Until you actually can see them clearly how can you start learning from their
successes?

------
Bizarro
And again and again, we have the usual suspects doing the usual things in
every single one of these type of stories - every single one. I guess dang and
others are ok with it.

------
glegouard
It is sad to see that humans need such a system to respect rules and others.
There is also the danger that the rules to respect change over time...

~~~
kaybe
No, we don't need it.

The rules most of us disrespect are routinely are not useful in the specific
cases (eg I'm not going to wait at a red light in the middle of the night as a
pedestrian, only as a driver). Almost all people are actually nice to each
other, at least where I have been.

------
superflb
This is not news. Some people refuse to pay their debts, but have money to
take flights or high-speed trains. They should be banned.

------
tyrex2017
better title would be: china expands list of people prohibited to use public
transport

right now it is clickbait

------
zzzeek
clicked on the comments for the link here just to see all the "it's
essentially the same thing here in the US!" posts and I was not disappointed.
(or I was, depending on how you look at it)

~~~
hexane360
So why are the analogies others have made not valid? (although I haven't found
anyone saying it's "essentially the same thing")

~~~
Chaebixi
It's pure whataboutism that only serves to totally distract attention away
from this newly-designed Chinese policy.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism)

> Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque
> logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by
> charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their
> argument, which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian
> propaganda. When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union, the Soviet
> response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.

> The Guardian deemed whataboutism, as used in Russia, "practically a national
> ideology". Journalist Julia Ioffe wrote that "Anyone who has ever studied
> the Soviet Union" was aware of the technique, citing the Soviet rejoinder to
> criticism, _And you are lynching Negroes_ , as a "classic" example of the
> tactic.

~~~
hexane360
I don't think this applies here, because in this case the two events are
directly related. Poster's aren't bringing up random unrelated problems with
the U.S., they're bringing up similar systems already in place in the U.S.
that HN commentators aren't up in arms about.

So you either need to do what I asked, which is explain why the two aren't
comparable, or admit that the pushback against these policies is because
they're new, foreign, or framed differently than their American counterparts.

------
abvdasker
Do you want a dystopia? Because this is how you get a dystopia.

------
jm__87
This comment section.. wow.

------
syntaxing
Not really about the article, but the amount of Whataboutism has been growing
uncomfortably stronger in the comments on Hacker News.

Actions of others is not enough to justify one's self (good or bad). All these
comments using Chinese/USA or Western/Eastern as their main point of argument
is superfluous.

------
burntrelish1273
I guess blogs to game / improve social credit are inevitable, but I probably
won't be able to read them natively.

------
jonathanyc
Once again, I’m disappointed in how quickly the comments on these articles
about China doing horrible things devolves into defense of America. It’s sort
of like a reverse whataboutism.

Ideally learning about what bad things other countries are doing would allow
us to look at what similar things we do in our own country and then work to
improve things. Instead the opposite seems to happen, and we actually draw a
line under our current policies while saying “well, at least here...”.

Other people doing horrible things is not justification for us to do less
horrible things. Conversely, because we do bad things doesn’t mean we can’t
criticize the bad things others do. On the other hand, we are in a much better
position to change things in our own country than in foreign countries.

I’ll end my commment by repeating that what China is doing here seems like a
step in the wrong direction, and is not something we should be defending.

~~~
ygaf
This is hilarious. When whataboutism is convenient to the self-righteous, what
then exists is "reverse whataboutism".

~~~
ygaf
I'm not banned? I had the thought that jonathanyc was an actual HN admin.

Either way, having thought I was walking into a ban, I'm shaping up and won't
simply contribute negativity. (I still believe HN threads aren't supposed to
derail in topic, unless an actual admin conveys otherwise)

------
mavdi
We'll end up doing exactly the same here in the West. Just after much drama
and a few terror attacks. I admire the Chinese for their efficiency.

------
joejerryronnie
At what point does the ruling party in China finally overstep its bounds and
incite a full-fledged violent revolution?

------
newnewpdro
Get ready for more China stabbing sprees [1] as the consequences of this
become increasingly felt by their society. This strikes me as an obviously bad
idea, but perhaps there are no good solutions with a population of that size.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_Schoo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_School_stabbing)

~~~
eddieplan9
Please do not try to rationalize a completely bullshit way of governing by
citing there is no better way. It's an insult to the people victimized by
this. I am a Chinese expat, and their stupid policy now says I cannot fly in
China because I only have a passport and not a National ID.

------
meganibla
Isn’t this actually a great idea?

If you don’t like it stop doing bad things and getting bad credit. If you
behave you’ll have more privileges and be permitted to interact with others in
more ways. It’s the basic social contract but implemented more efficiently. I
can only imagine scofflaws is complaining.

If you complain it’s open to abuse well every human system not run by an
uncrackable artificial intelligence is open to abuse. Don’t unfairly fear a
Chinese system over a Western system when how do you know how clear your ideas
are?

If you live under this system and really cannot stand or tolerate then just
move to another country and cry out that you’re a fake victim and you can seek
asylum from some generous Western nation wanting to pretend it’s morally
supremacist.

