
I burned out at BigCo.  Am I a fool for thinking I can avoid this at a startup? - thrwwy20120508
(been on HN for half a decade, but posting anonymously because I could be perceived as damaged goods and hence unemployable)<p>The story is a familiar one to readers here, so I'll spare the details.  Abusive management, perpetual "crisis mode," promises repeatedly broken, entrenched technical incompetence, smothering bureaucracy, vomit-inducing organizational politics -- the whole nine yards.<p>I started as a wide-eyed youngster desiring to prove myself, went through the denial phase, and ultimately suffered a total loss of motivation.  Since then I've left the job to spend some time recovering, soul-searching, and gathering what I can as lessons learned.<p>Right now I'd say that I have the (financial) risk tolerance to work at a startup, as well as the desire to work on challenging and meaningful tasks, especially with growth and learning opportunities and a level of ownership such that I can take pride in my work.  But I doubt I have the dedication or interest in the business aspects necessary to start a company of my own, hence my willingness to give the startup employee route a shot.<p>However, given my experience with burnout, I feel that I may be excessively skeptical of what any employer would have to offer.  Of the problems I mentioned before, everything other than the red tape could just as well happen in a startup.  The obsession with "rockstars" and "ninjas" who have unwavering "passion" just smells like a search for naïve, exploitable labor willing to give up evenings and weekends for foosball games and beer.  The prevalence of social bubble-worthy companies whose value propositions are little more than "cat pictures" suggests an inflated sense of self-importance among the founders, and I can't expect to keep my level of enthusiasm in line with their irrational exuberance.  And while I don't need much job security, having the specter of financial instability looming over the office tends to be at minimum somewhat distracting and most likely quite demotivating.<p>Perhaps a startup that has gone through the vetting process with YC would have less of these issues, but even then I have some doubts.  I'm not in any position to question PG's judgment, but after seeing some of the announcements of companies funded and the infamous "YC company seeks brogrammer" job post, I have a feeling that his evaluation metrics for founders may significantly diverge from mine.<p>I recently passed up an opportunity at a very high-profile technology company mainly because everyone on the team was required to carry pagers.  It just didn't feel right, especially for an established business that claimed it was being run like a lean startup.  But it did get me thinking -- why would an actual startup not require the same?<p>tl,dr: Can I expect to find a position with the potential professional rewards of working at a startup, while still setting strict boundaries on work to preserve my sanity?  Or am I trying to have my cake and eat it too?
======
AndyNemmity
I went the opposite direction, burnt out by startups and went to a BigCo.

I have never been at a startup where you could remotely set strict boundaries
on work. You have to be available at all times to deal with whatever crisis is
happening.

Moving to a BigCo, they treat me way better than a startup, and there is less
day to day stress. I have weekends and my time off work really is "off" again.

I couldn't be happier with the switch. Do I miss things about working at a
startup? Sure.. but being treated like a professional and having a life again
is more important than the chance at glory, money or being "the" guy to fix
this critical unsolvable problem.

Now I'm one of many many people solving problems no startup I've been in could
dream of solving.

Just my experience, I'm sure many people have divergent experiences.

Edit:

I would also like to add a key driver to my happiness is that I'm in a
position of change at the BigCo. It's not just endless meetings, and I have a
great deal of autonomy, and am working on exciting things.

I had this in startups too... so I didn't trade usefulness for constant
meetings.

Thought that was important to add, I'd feel differently if I didn't have a
useful, interesting and rewarding job at a BigCo... which I could have never
gotten without working in startups for the beginning of my career.

~~~
philjones88
How did you go about finding that BigCo job?

Perhaps its down to the job market in the UK and .NET that everything is
handled by recruiters that hide lots of details about BigCo jobs or make them
sound dull.

------
sethg
The last time I did a job search, one of the questions I started asking in
interviews was “what distinguishes an employee at your company who meets your
expectations from someone who is truly outstanding”? If the response was
phrased in terms of hours per week, I knew that was not the company for me.

~~~
timbre
I'm not surprised that employees are judged by hours worked, but I'm very
surprised that an interviewer would have the awareness and honesty to say so
in an interview. Was it at least rare?

~~~
sethg
I (fortunately) didn’t build up a very large sample size, but there was one
junior guy I spoke to who started his answer with “a normal engineer will show
up at 9:00 and leave at 6:00...”. He did backpedal a bit when I questioned him
more closely about the time expectations, and I had other reasons for choosing
not to work for that company.

------
bradfa
You talk of startups like they're only run by 20-something brogrammers. Find a
small company that isn't, then work there. Find a company with a CEO / founder
who's in their 30s, 40s, or 50s and has a family. There's tons out there.
You'll find a better work/life balance and less foosball.

Don't be the first hire, be the 10th, after they've established themselves but
are still small enough that it has that startup vibe. Don't expect stock
options but the pay should be market rate by then.

At small companies, you ship. Or you go out of business. You also probably
won't read about 99% of them on HN. Ignore HN (except for the who's hiring)
and get to work building something awesome!

~~~
matwood
In the last year I left BigCo for the kind of company you describe. It's been
mostly a positive experience so far. I've gone to a lot less meetings and
learned a ton about technologies I never would have touched at my BigCo job.

 _At small companies, you ship. Or you go out of business._

This is important to keep in mind mainly because many people have a hard time
with that sort of stress. Small companies, even profitable ones, have small
margins of error. The upside is that in a small company you should have a lot
more contribution to the success or failure.

------
tomkarlo
Startups have their own pathologies, but I'm going to point you that if you
think "perpetual crisis mode" is somehow a big-company problem, you're going
to be disappointed. Especially at a startup that isn't profitable yet, you're
essentially continually in "crisis" given that if you don't achieve
profitability or sale, you're going to be out of work. It's a whole different
grade of pressure from a big company where "crisis mode" rarely actually
results in anyone losing their job.

Also, re this comment "The prevalence of social bubble-worthy companies whose
value propositions are little more than "cat pictures" suggests an inflated
sense of self-importance among the founders, and I can't expect to keep my
level of enthusiasm in line with their irrational exuberance." ... I think
you're over thinking this. There are silly startups because people (for one
reason or another) are willing to invest in them, and generally those folks
aren't the founders. Whatever startup you go to, you'd better believe in what
they're doing, because you're going to be taking a huge financial risk and
going through a lot of stress attempting to play out that belief.

If you don't believe in a startup, don't work there - but also don't denigrate
whatever vision they're trying to implement, at least respect that they're
trying.

~~~
thrwwy20120508
> There are silly startups because people (for one reason or another) are
> willing to invest in them, and generally those folks aren't the founders.

I don't think I'd be happy at a company whose own founders don't believe in
their mission and are only in it for the money. Built to flip, right?

~~~
tomkarlo
Well, I was really just trying to point out that the fact there are companies
whose "mission" he doesn't personally value doesn't mean that their founders
have an "inflated sense of self-worth." It's the nature of startups that there
are going to be a lot of long-shot and far-fetched ideas involved... if he
happens to not disagree with the mission of a particular startup (or its
valuation), he shouldn't then jump to the assumption that the founders are
arrogant or self-important. He'd only be hurting himself to do that -- they
could be perfectly nice people who happen to have stumbled onto a bit of a
bubble in the market, and may be willing to help him out even if he's not
going to directly get involved in their particular business.

It's just the nature of the Internet, and anything related to consumer
entertainment, that there are going to be some really fluffy / inane things
that become ridiculously popular / valuable. As long as the folks behind them
realize they're not the new Shakespeare, there's no reason to assume they're
any different from people working on more mundane or serious problems.

------
bcantrill
It sounds like you turned down Amazon, which was likely an excellent decision.
(Full disclosure: I work at an Amazon competitor and I routinely hire Amazon
refugees.) Amazon is (from my perspective) an environment that does not value
the individual: their engineers are not permitted to blog or otherwise
describe their work -- and participating in an open source project is so
outside their culture that no one dare even ask the question. The good news:
Amazon is the exception, not the rule. Other environments (large and small)
empower the individual -- and I think that that is the essence of what you're
looking for. So the questions to ask: will I be allowed to reasonably discuss
my work at conferences, in blogs, etc.? Will I get the opportunity to work on
open source projects? Will I get the opportunity to open source original work
I develop here? If the answer to those is a verifiable "yes", you are likely
headed to a generally supportive environment (be it established company or
startup); in software engineering (as in government) sunlight tends to
disinfect...

------
lxt
It sounds to me as if the causes of your burnout are not related to overwork
and long hours, but more about poor management, too much bureaucracy and
resentment. However, different companies have different attitudes to work
boundaries, and it's up to you to find out what they are and whether those are
aligned with your own attitudes or not. What are you willing to do?

In terms of general advice, coming back from burnout to a new job:

I'd advise you in the first instance to look for a workplace that is as free
of assholes as possible. This is easier to accomplish in a small company just
on a sheer scale basis, but there are still plenty of small companies that are
full of assholes. When you interview, remember you are interviewing your
coworkers as much as they are interviewing you. I chose my current job based
heavily on this criterion, and I have never regretted it.

Next up, remember the three key things required for job happiness: autonomy,
mastery, and purpose. You will generally speaking get more autonomy in smaller
companies, although some medium - large companies have worked hard on
maintaining this. (See the recently leaked Valve employee handbook for an
example.)

Mastery - assuming you like to learn new stuff - is something you will be
forced into at a startup, where everything is your job. It's mastery or
failure.

Purpose depends on the company you choose. Basically this amounts to doing
something you personally think is important. (I'd advise you to choose
carefully here: I personally couldn't summon up enough passion to work on
advertising-related products, for example.)

Spend time researching your options, and I hope you find something that makes
you eager to get to work each morning. Best of luck to you.

------
trustfundbaby
I went through the same thing.

All the problems you mention could also happen at a startup, but it is less
likely, it really comes down to the people. My advice is when you interview
with companies, ask a _lot_ of questions and if something doesn't feel right
to you ... keep poking and poking until you get a clearer picture about the
questions you have.

Trust your gut and if you don't feel all the way good about it, then don't
join. What I've learned in my career is that those little things you overlook
at the start of that shiny new gig have a way of growing into massive
problems.

Over all things, try to find a place where you really really care about the
work, where you're excited to go to work in the morning, or something close to
that. And if things go sour, don't waste time trying to 'fix' things, cut the
cord and move on. Staying will only make you resentful and tarnish your
image/reputation as the quality of your work suffers.

I'll leave you with a quote that has come to summarize my world view these
days.

"Life is too short not to do something that matters" \--- Hugh Mcleod

Good luck.

~~~
miql
Can anyone recommend a resource or list of good questions to ask in addition
to or similar to what's posted here?

Thanks a lot for this.

~~~
trustfundbaby
It really comes down to you and the things you care about.

\- For example, I'm a night owl so a company like github that doesn't care
about hours appeals to me _greatly_ , <http://zachholman.com/posts/how-github-
works-hours/>, I'll ask about their attendance policy, how late is late? How
much do they frown on lateness. More importantly how does the guy supervising
you feel about it.

\- I hate forced pair programming, so that's the first thing I ask. if they
pair program even 40-50% of the time, I'm out.

\- I don't like companies that scrimp on developer tools, so I ask about the
equipment they get for developers. What the budget is for each dev? How often
they replace the equipment? Do they pay for developer conferences or books or
their employees have to take PTO and pay their way?

\- I don't like walled gardens, where devs can't influence product design, you
know ... just-code-this-spec devs ... So I'll ask things like, what was the
last feature a developer suggested that made it into production? This one
usually stumps the fakers, you know the people who try to recruit rockstars
and turn them into code monkeys?

\- I ask Devs when they get time to catch up on HN and read blogs, or play
around with new technology and from their responses I can usually tell if
doing that stuff at work is frowned upon (No bueno) or encouraged.

\- I also ask what sideprojects they're working on. just like that. If the dev
looks shocked, I run. If they say something like ... "I have so many ideas and
after mentioning them to x they usually become product features" ... that
warms my heart. If they say something like, "I have some stuff I'm working on,
but I'm still trying to see how to get it in front of people", then I'll dig
deeper.

Just ask about everything and take time to actually interview the company, on
the things that matter to you.

I have a prepared list of questions in evernote that I add questions to and
delete stuff from as they pop in my head reading HN or just hanging out, one
list for the devs, another for the managers and another for the higher ups (if
I get a chance to talk to them). I have cultivated it over 2 years and it
really helps me get a feel for how I'm going to get along with my potential
employers, whenever I sit down to talk to anybody.

------
webwright
Startups are hard work, but infinitely more rewarding than BigCo. If you burn
out, it will be on the work and not the politics (if you choose carefully).

But this post is a lot like the myriad "I am just getting out of a shitty
marriage... Can I ever love again?" posts on the internet.

Of course you can. Job security for a programmer is a ridiculous thing to be
concerned about (assuming you're in a startup/software hub). You can fall out
of bed and land in three recruiters. You will never miss a meal.

That means you have infinite freedom compared to most other folks. So start
interviewing! Don't interview at places that suck. Have drinks with folks at
6pm to see how many people are still in the office. Different companies drink
deeper of the workahol than others.

And re: your judgement of YC companies. I know stereotypes are a real time
saver, but why would you judge 400ish companies by the actions of a few? YC
invests in a pretty wide range of folks.

~~~
thrwwy20120508
I'm not painting with a wide brush here, I'm just acknowledging that blind
faith in PG's stamp of approval is insufficient to make any determination of
whether a particular company is worthwhile or not. I'm sure there's quite a
few well-run YC-funded startups; I just have to make that call myself.

~~~
webwright
Totally reasonable. YC chooses companies based on a 1 page app and a 10 minute
interview. Their hit rate (in terms of good companies and good human beings)
is astonishingly good, but there are bound to be some misses.

------
FuzzyDunlop
> _Abusive management, perpetual "crisis mode," promises repeatedly broken,
> entrenched technical incompetence, smothering bureaucracy, vomit-inducing
> organizational politics -- the whole nine yards._

Your choice here doesn't seem to be 'startup vs BigCo', it seems to be 'shit
job vs good job'.

You may well find a startup that, on the surface, is compatible with your own
wants and needs, but after a short period of being there, it's just the same
annoyances that got you down in the last job.

Conversely you may well find a BigCo job that is the polar opposite of what
you experienced in the last one.

I don't believe that answering your question with a basic 'yes, startups will
be better' or 'no, stick to BigCo' will really help you.

What you really need to do is selectively apply for jobs once your research
into the company (big or small) satisfies you enough. Read their website,
blog, Twitter feed, employee opinions (if possible) and so on, and strike from
your list any potential job that doesn't tick all your boxes.

After that it's up to you to ask these questions about a day in the life at
the office to your interviewer, and to assess the working environment if
you're interviewed on-site. If you're not happy, leave it. If you are, weigh
it up against any other interviews you've had.

Remember that, in the bigger picture, you're after a good job for _you_.
Whether that's startup or BigCo depends entirely on the impression you get
from them.

------
alaskamiller
I don't think you're mature enough to handle a startup.

There, I said it.

Startups aren't shangrilas devoid of problems you saw at a bigco. In fact,
they amplify those problems in a small team. And you're going to be
dysfunctional going forward dealing, accepting, and working around those
problems.

Yourself.

Without HR, perfs, buses, or fridges full of Odawalla to soothe your pain.
Maybe even without steady pay and health coverage. So yes, grip those cat meme
pics tight, often it'll be your only distraction from being inside a fire.

Check your attitude first. Get that it's not you joining a startup it's equal
parts a startup joining you. You decide where to cut the red tape--then deal
with the political fallout of seeing the same 4 or 5 people every day. You
decide when and where the crisis mode starts--then deal with the project
failures. You decide the level of technical incompetence and smothering
bureaucracy--then deal with the dilution.

Also get that YCombinator isn't just a vetting tool but rather a homework
club. Passing out notes from upperclassmen and tips from product to launch to
marketing to even... when to hire and not hire people that don't get it.

Be do go out and keep working. Find intelligent people working on problems you
find interesting in a company that you can be proud of. Those are the real
criteria, not labels, you'll need to worry about.

It'll take awhile though, and you're going to need a couple stumbles and wrong
turns to figure out where that is.

Best.

~~~
thrwwy20120508
I'll take your assessment at face value. What you said needed to be said,
though I assure you that I harbor no illusions of startup-land being a
worker's paradise.

That said, I'm not sure I understand -- what level of "maturity" do you expect
from prospective startup employees, and how do you determine that?

------
moocow01
I just went through a similar thing two years ago (burnt out from a startup
that became a big company). I ended up taking off about 6 months and then pin-
balled through a couple companies before finding something that makes me feel
like Im on the road to being back on my feet. From that experience here is my
2 cents.

### If you are already burnt out, I would absolutely avoid the following...

\- A startup that is doing something that is not all that exciting to you (no
matter how cool the company is or how great their potential is)

\- A big co. in the same industry as your past company (while not always,
competing companies in the same segment tend to usually have similar operating
procedures)

\- Any company under financial pressure... that could be an over-promising
startup with not enough funding/revenue or a big co. that is starting to tilt
in the wrong direction.

### What I would suggest:

\- If possible, any company that is doing something you find exciting. I'd
probably lean more towards a larger organization in that the risk of getting
doubly burnt out in a startup is probably higher. If it isn't somehow
interesting or exciting, don't take it or quit after a week of trying it out.
Also look at non-SV type companies. There are lots of interesting
opportunities for technical folks in energy, education, etc. that after years
of working on the typical startup stuff I've realized is way more interesting
to me.

------
dsl
I've been in both worlds, and I can tell you they both suck equally. It all
comes down to are you happy doing what you are doing, regardless of company
size.

The people I work with, passion is expected. Because when you are no longer
passionate, you are no longer happy, and nobody wants to see that drag out.
However we understand people have lives outside of work. The only people "on
call" are the CTO and myself (the ops guy). You might get a phone call if your
project explodes in production, but I think that is reasonable in any work
environment.

Shoot me an email at dessyohtiav@dunflimblag.mailexpire.com if you are
interested in working at a sane startup.

------
ballstothewalls
I am a student who hasnt even landed a summer internship, so take what I am
about to say with a grain of salt.

I take "I have the (financial) risk tolerance to work at a startup" to mean
you have some savings built up. Why not just take your time job searching? All
companies aren't the same. Instead of focusing on looking for a "startup"
instead look for any company that fosters the type of environment that you
want to work in.

------
Duff
You're confusing the issue that you have. From what you describe, you worked
in an environment that is simply toxic to you.

I think you need to write down the things that you want in a job, wait a few
days, and see if those things still make sense. Then figure out how you are
going to get a job where you can have those things.

I've worked in small companies, fortune 500 and government. My satisfaction at
these jobs had/has very little to do with the type of organization. It's a
combination of the culture of the organization, quality of management, and
where you are in life. The things I loved about working in a late stage
startup at 21 are things that I would _hate_ today as a 33 year old father.

You need to find the right role. You can even find gigs in government with a
fast pace and minimal bureaucratic nonsense or hardcore operations roles that
demand overtime and pagers.

------
mratzloff
> The obsession with "rockstars" and "ninjas" who have unwavering "passion"
> just smells like a search for naïve, exploitable labor willing to give up
> evenings and weekends for foosball games and beer.

Yes, that's right. I've worked at these companies. Avoid them.

Keep in mind that small businesses that have been around for a decade can be
just as bad as some startups. I had a terrible experience at one where I
worked 80-100 hour weeks for months before I quit.

I've worked at several startups and small companies, and it's a mixed bag, but
none of them have been perfect. The main thing to keep in mind is that the
personality of the founder is the single most critical factor in your
happiness.

My best work experiences have been at companies that are out of the startup
phase and profitable, with around 50-70 employees. They have the HR and
reimbursement processes worked out, they don't flagrantly break employment
laws, and the hours are closer to 40-45 a week. Just keep in mind there's an
expiration on these jobs; eventually they inevitably become big, bureaucratic
companies. When a mid-sized company starts hiring vice presidents the clock
starts counting down.

Right now I work in a remote office with five other people, and the main
company (60 or so employees) is in a different state. It's pretty much the
best of both worlds.

------
jasonkolb
It depends on the source of your burnout.

Are you feeling oppressed by endless meetings and the sense of being rendered
ineffective by mountains of bureaucracy? You will get much more actual work
done at a startup.

Are you feeling like you want to spend more time drinking beer at home?
Startups are not for you.

------
conformal
"The prevalence of social bubble-worthy companies whose value propositions are
little more than "cat pictures" suggests an inflated sense of self-importance
among the founders, and I can't expect to keep my level of enthusiasm in line
with their irrational exuberance."

i totally loled :)

organizations that expect unreasonable working hours from developers or
sysadmins are a bad place to work. the only places i consider it somewhat
reasonable to work employees over 50 hrs / week are professional services
firms where the firm is actually gaming the billable hours of the employee
involved.

remember that you have a choice about the amount of hours you work: don't let
yourself get into a position where you're being chided to work countless
hours. a good manager knows that working most employees over 40 hrs / wk leads
to lower quality work product, but as i mentioned above, the only place where
this consistently translates to revenue is a prof services firm. ppl are more
likely to commit errors and generate crap product once you push them over an 8
hr work day. this is not to say some ppl can't work a 16 hr day and be nearly
twice as productive as an 8 hr day worker.

don't get discouraged and don't let ppl push you around with respect to the
hours you clock. i'm sure you'll find somewhere that fits you better than
behemoth X.

------
paulsutter
TL;DR Yes you can find a rewarding, sanity-preserving job. And, it depends.

There's

\- a 90% chance that you're in a bad environment,

\- a 70% chance that you're a cynic,

\- a 40% chance that you'll criticize _any_ environment, and

\- a 100% chance that you can improve your situation.

First set aside your anxiety about making the perfect decision. There is no
silver bullet that will make your life perfect. Your next job need only get
you closer to understanding what you want. Follow the 80/20 rule. Make a good
decision. There's some great advice in the responses here.

Avoid binary decisions. Job involves carrying a pager? What percent of the
time, and how often does it go off? If you wear it one week a month, and the
pager only goes off once a quarter, you are joining a well run company. If the
pager goes off twice a night, run like hell. Ask several people. Does the
manager give a candy-coated answer? Walk away. You learn about the company by
drilling in.

No place will be perfect. Ask yourself, do I want to work with these people?
Can I learn from them? Are they intellectually honest? Only you know the
things that matter.

You'll find a healthy environment that lets you work 45 hours a week. Not
perfect, but in time you will recognize it if you are able to set aside
cynicism. I learned to set aside cynicism, and you can too.

EDIT: When you ask about the pager, be careful not to sound like you hate
pagers. Make it a question about their systems and processes, not a
"lifestyle" question. Even in a place with a great lifestyle a reasonable
working hours, it looks bad when an employee focuses on it.

~~~
thrwwy20120508
Thanks for your input, I do appreciate your insight.

I will argue that it's not just a 70% chance that I'm a cynic -- I'll admit
that I _am_ a cynic. It's something that I'll have to work on.

------
floppydisk
If you're still struggling with burnout and concerned your motivations and
desires aren't going to line up with the company founder(s)' motivations, then
listen to your gut! You know you the best, and you seem to be saying--via your
post--you're unsure about jumping into the startup world at this point in
time.

I understand where you're coming from, I've worked at BigCo. as well. If you
want an opportunity that offers learning opportunities, task ownership, growth
potential, and some policies of an established business (work/life balance,
for instance), why don't you take a look at a small, growing "post-startup"
company with <50 people? For purposes of clarification, post startup being
defined as: Has at least one viable product or service being sold to and used
by customers, established sources of revenue, corporate financial stability,
been in existence for several years, and some level of defined business/HR
practices. You get the benefits of working for a small company without the
stresses of being in constant start up mode.

Such companies do exist, the industry they work in might not be glamorous and
you will have to dig to find them, but if you find one you mesh well with,
you'll learn alot. The most important part of this whole process is to ask
questions about issues you care about and if you don't like the answer they
give, ask a more penetrating follow up. Always make sure to ask to speak with
someone you'd be working with, they'll have a trench level view of the system.
And, at the end of the day, if you don't feel comfortable with the place and
don't think you'd jive with their work environment, you don't have to take the
gig. :)

tl,dr: Such places do exist, they just probably aren't startups, and you're
going to have to dig to find 'em.

------
dabent
I've been in jobs like you've described. I've found that often the feeling of
being "burned out" had a lot more to do with what I was working on and who I
was working with rather than how much time I was spending doing it. There are
limits to that, of course, but I find myself willingly doing extra on my
current job because I love it so much.

Sure, I'm in a great location, but I had a window office at my last job and
have 1/8th of a table here. Still, I'm sitting next to seven really smart
people who all seem to "get it" in terms of work and technology, so I don't
miss that office.

That brings me to your comment on PG's judgement, what he and YC seem to
mostly do is make investments based on people. If you're with good people,
you're off to a great start. There are certainly other things that matter, but
in my opinion, coworkers are the core of the work experience.

Edit: to note that the quality of the people involved, and how you mesh with
them matters at all sizes and ages of companies. You may be just as happy at a
different "BigCo" as I have been happy at some very large companies and most
of what I remember is who I worked with.

------
juddlyon
Boundaries and stability are unlikely to be found in a startup. Not my area of
expertise, but it sounds like a med/large company with a positive work culture
and less-toxic politics might serve you well for a few years.

Best of luck!

------
tlogan
Pick startups which are run by experienced management (i.e., they were loved,
respected, and very effective at their previous job) and backed up by top-tier
VCs (Mayfield, Sequoia, etc.).

Basically, I learned that it is not about bigCo or startup: it is all about
people.

And if a startup is correctly managed you will have 40-45 hour per week
average with great potential to grow.

------
mchannon
Being willing and able to walk away from it all to become an early employee is
actually even less common than people who do it all to become a lone
entrepreneur, so don't sell that aspect short.

Getting institutionalized in a toxic work environment is a good thing to
escape, but it's important to recognize that making the transition to a
startup requires casting a lot of the baggage associated therewith overboard;
some of it doesn't even feel like baggage.

Many startups (like mine) don't crack the whip and force you to work outside
the bounds of reality or past your optimum productivity. Just gotta seek us
out.

------
carsongross
My experience with startups (and started up and made its) has been pretty
negative with respect to mental health and work life balance: I've got to tear
myself away from the perf charts, server logs and IntelliJ to make sure I
don't miss my sons growing up.

If you'd like a reasonable work-life balance with a lot of smart people, I can
recommend my ex-employer, Guidewire. They don't work crazy hours and have a
fairly adult work environment, and their recurring revenue model guarantees a
level of stability underneath the technical innovation.

------
jmspring
Burnout can take many forms and you need to identify what it is you are
exactly burned out on. Is it the environment, the lack of recognition, the
colleagues, lack of challenge, or it may just be simply you are actually
needing a break.

If it is the last one, going to a startup isn't going to change things.

That said, not all startups are the 7-day a week, sleep under your desk slog.
But, there are ones that are -- sometimes it is because you are all young,
trying to run, and want to do so; other times it can be for reasons as you
experienced -- poor management and poor planning. I've experienced both, and
walked away from the latter when I realized it was the best thing for me.

If you are in an area with a diverse startup ecosystem, get out there and talk
to people. Identify companies that might be interesting for you, network a
bit, and see if you can engage the people in a conversation about their
companies in a social (rather than interview) environment. Try and find out
what the environment is like, how management treats the individual
contributors, etc.

That said, startups will generally take more time and may be more challenging
than a larger company. If, however, you are working with people you like and
on something you enjoy, it may not be as noticeable.

All the same, as others have mentioned, there are startups out there where
people do have life/work balances. For instance, Treehouse was mentioned last
month -- <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3883268>

Take the time to identify what you want and the type of people you want to
work with, do some leg work, and see how it goes. Good luck.

------
jamesu
After experiencing burnout many times, i've come to the following conclusion:
if you want to avoid burnout stay away from toxic, crisis-mode management.
Take things easy, and remember it doesn't matter if things take longer than
you expected.

Given the realities startups however, this is not always an easy thing to
avoid.

------
n9com
So basically you want all the upside of a startup without putting in any of
the hard work/long hours required to make it a success?

As harsh as this may sound, working at a startup is often chaotic, if you
can't deal with high pressure, it is probably best if you go back to being a
cog at a BigCo.

~~~
thrwwy20120508
I'm not saying that I can't handle pressure, but I firmly believe that just
calling yourself a startup does not give you latitude to overwork your
employees.

 _It is now 6:45 pm and there are only 12 people in our office. We have 65
people that work here in Seattle. This is totally unacceptable.

This company has far too much very important work to do to have virtually
empty offices at 6:45 pm. If anyone thinks that everything we need to do as a
company can be accomplished within an 8 hour day, then I think they fail to
understand the scope and complexity of our venture. Anyone harboring such
illusions should seriously consider a career change. I am sure that I could
point to tasks for every single person in this company that would merit
working past 7 pm every single night.

...

This is not a bank; this is not Boeing. This is a start-up and we are all
expecting to be rewarded for taking the risk of a start-up. But, there will be
no rewards without exceptional effort.

Given the severity of the situation, I am putting strict office hours into
effect immediately. Until further notice, all employees are required to be at
their desk from 8am until 7pm, with 30 minutes for lunch. There are no
exceptions._

\-- excerpted from email from MyLackey
([http://web.archive.org/web/20070318005206/http://www.fuckedc...](http://web.archive.org/web/20070318005206/http://www.fuckedcompany.com/extras/mylackey_letter.cfm))

Sadly, I fear that situations like this are not an exceptional case in
startup-land.

~~~
n9com
Perhaps that's the case at some startups, but my own and several others I know
of are very flexible. Work the hours you want, from where you want. It's more
about what you get done rather than how many hours you work. Someone smart can
probably get twice as much done in the same time.

However, sometimes critical situations arise whereby you may need to work a
few more hours or on a saturday. If you flat out refuse to do this, then it
would come across that you don't care about the startup's success.

These critical situations are rare and often members of a startup will be more
than happy to pitch in to solve something quickly when it goes wrong.

When you have a consumer facing product used by hundreds of thousands of
people, you can't really wait till Monday when things break on a Friday night.
Every hour counts.

My friends at investment banks often work 18 hour days and have a terrible
lifestyle/hate their job compared to people I know working at startups.

I'm sure there are great BigCos and startups to work for, like everything in
life, there is a good and a bad side.

------
leeny
I work at a startup that's been around for > 5 years. At this point, we're
stable enough to not require back-breaking hours (of course, people give a
shit and work hard, but no one's sleeping under his desk).

So far we've managed to avoid the morass of bureaucracy/red tape that tends to
creep in when organizations grow. Case in point, no mandatory meetings for
engineers -- meetings happen when stuff needs to get discussed. And it's par
for the course for engineers to have ownership over the product/feature
they're working on.

Feel free to contact me if you'd like more info.

------
phamilton
Find a startup with financial backing and a significant runway (like 2 years).
They have usually put out enough fires already to have some stability. With
enough runway, the focus will shift from day-to-day to long term code
stability and design decisions. It will still move quickly, but the likelihood
of put-everything-on-hold-and-pull-an-all-nighter decreases. Avoiding burnout
is a priority, as the founders came pretty close just to get the money. You
won't see a simple 9-5, but you will see keeping weekends free and keeping a
balance between home and work.

------
jen_h
I think your gut is right-on; the issues you describe aren't just endemic to
BigCo, you'll find them anywhere and everywhere...but...if you have the
financial risk tolerance to work at a startup, why not start your own company
instead? These days, it's really easy to get going and self-fund with very
little capital if you can save up living expenses & tighten the belt for a
year or so.

Set goals and a drop-dead date (i.e., if I'm not making money within
$65_percent_living_expenses_depleted, time to head back to work) and I suspect
you'll be happily surprised by the outcome...

~~~
thrwwy20120508
> if you have the financial risk tolerance to work at a startup, why not start
> your own company instead?

I don't think I'm ready for that yet, and I'd like to think that working at a
startup will better prepare me for starting my own.

What really sent me down this path was PG's comment suggesting that "you can
titrate the amount of startupness you get in your job by the size of the
company you join." (<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1346224>) It's not a
binary decision, but a sliding scale.

------
spaghetti
The key to happiness when working for someone else is the happiness of your
co-workers. Specific technologies and projects are just a minor consideration.
Happy people can be a sign of decent management, decent hours, decent pay etc.
Not a guarantee but a good litmus test.

Unhappy co-workers can ruin anything. Doesn't matter if your job is printing
money on a yacht in the Caribbean. No amount of sunshine, drinks or swimming
can chase away the awful feeling of seeing the same unhappy people day after
day.

------
corkill
Is there any company that has the rewards you desire and has strict boundaries
on work time?

I would get specific with the things you want, then you can analyse
opportunities against those criteria.

The first company I worked at freaking sucked as well, it's soul destroying I
agree, but you live and learn.

Lastly one of the biggest lessons someone pointed out to me is we teach other
people how to treat us. If someone calls you at 10pm at night and asks you to
do something and you do it. You have just confirmed to that person this is ok.

~~~
thrwwy20120508
> Lastly one of the biggest lessons someone pointed out to me is we teach
> other people how to treat us. If someone calls you at 10pm at night and asks
> you to do something and you do it. You have just confirmed to that person
> this is ok.

So true! I still did it after vehemently expressing my displeasure and taking
my manager's word that it was "just this time only" -- then he did the same
thing the next week!

After that experience, I'd much rather risk getting fired than subject myself
to that sort of abuse repeatedly.

------
shismijuh
Very similar experience. Burnt out at BigCo, started looking at startups last
year. After a few interviews realized this will again be the same ending just
a different storyline.

I am now working for a much smaller company (less than 200 people). Have
direct impact on the bottomline so can see my usefulness very easily. Minimal
bureaucracy and fight for visibility. And sane hours, most people have
families so the balance automatically shows. And compensation is competitive.
So far, am very happy.

------
pnathan
My current employer is a midsize corp, and we are fairly 'sane'. We have
hundreds of engineers and there are cubicles. We're not into rockstars,
ninjas, or exploitable labor. Some groups do run in crisis-mode too much, but
that isn't preferred. We are founder-run and take pride in high-quality
work... our industry demands it, among other things. :-)

We're not a startup: we're not going to IPO or get acquired.

We _are_ hiring, and have been growing for years.

Feel free to email me for a link to the careers page.

------
redbeard0x0a
I found a blog post a few months back that made a lot of sense to me -
basically they said that Burnout is caused by resentment. The more you resent
your work (i.e. working too many hours, dealing with idiots, anything
frustrating), the faster your will burnout. You should check out the post, its
pretty short.

[http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/Burnout-is-caused-by-
resentment...](http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/Burnout-is-caused-by-
resentment.html)

------
pudakai
Good call on the pagers, although I didn't know anyone used pagers anymore.

You'll never know until you try it w/a startup. However, being composed of
people, like big company's are, all the human failings are evident there.

The upside to startups over big co is not having to deal w/bureaucracy and
usually (but not always, lotta big egos in startup founders) more of an
egalitarian vibe.

Other than that, I think they are all over the map, just like bigco, some of
which are very nice to work at.

------
aaronkwhite
We don't wear pagers in Startups because we're always connected. We use new
forms of communications & technologies to make life easier (Twitter, SMS,
Shit... even emails). The great thing about being in a startup is that you
have the power to build things in anyway you want, which usually means in a
way that will make your life easier, thus you don't have to carry a pager.

Also, I don't even know where you would buy a pager anymore...

------
rubyrescue
it sounds like you need a break...perhaps you should take six months off and
do some consulting, relax and then wait for the right opportunity.

------
drivingmenuts
No, but be prepared to walk away if it stops being fun. There are times it
will suck (that just happens) but there is an intrinsic fun to working at a
startup. But on that day when you can't see the end goal anymore and can't be
convinced that it exists, get out. Maybe slightly before then, but that part's
tricky.

------
alinajaf
Sympathize entirely with your situation, been there before many times. However
putting up with this sort of environment for more than a few weeks in the
current market for dev work is completely incomprehensible to me. Everyone is
hiring, and they're happy if they can get fizzbuzz and a pulse.

------
jimbobimbo
Here's a nice article on figuring out what's important for you when you are
looking for a job: <http://ceklog.kindel.com/2012/04/26/the-job-decision-
matrix/>

------
Produce
Here's what works for me - jobs at small, established companies who want to Do
It Right. Corporations are too burdened with bureaucracy, startups are too
stressful (unless they make it worth it with a decent share of the business).

------
SatvikBeri
Short answer: yes.

Long answer: talk to a lot of people in the kind of role you want. Find out
what their work life is like. You need to get this information from employees,
not from employers-that's how you'll get honest information.

------
jasimq
As someone else also mentioned, you're not comparing BigCo with a startup, but
a shitty job with a good job.

Take it this way: what doesn't destroy you makes you stronger. Just take a
break and find another job/project.

------
clueless123
The problem is not the company you work at.. the problem is that you care.

To be happy at any job: Respect your self,Respect others, respect your work.

If you respected yourself from the beginning you would hav quit long time ago
:)

------
moubarak
Yes, go into academia. Do some research. That's the most comfortable job one
can ever have. You have to like research though. Do masters in something you
like. Just anything related to academia.

------
tudorw
'It just didn't feel right'

If I had trusted this I would have dodged some 'bullets'

Likewise only by ignoring good advice have I learned to ignore bad...

------
mikezupan
Try a week long vacation with no laptop or phone. You'd be surprised what a
week away from work can do for burn out.

------
cicagorio
Now it's late, you should read <http://www.jailfreebook.com>

------
marklindhout
Your health and your life are infinitely more important than any job in the
universe.

------
Aqueous
You'll actually care about your startup. That's the main difference. The end.

------
GBond
Sorry - a bit OT but... who carries pagers anymore let alone startups?

~~~
georgieporgie
Last time I checked, which was awhile ago, Blackberry was the only non-pager
that could guarantee delivery within a known time-frame. You can't run server
alerts over SMS, since it might take an hour (I've heard of a 12 hour delay
around New Year's), or it might not be delivered at all.

~~~
Estragon
Seems like there might be a market here for an app which acknowledged receipt
and publication of a message to the target's phone, coupled with a service
which escalated to a phone call to the target if it times out waiting for the
acknowledgement.

~~~
basseq
I think the guarantee is the tough part; you have to own the hardware and have
at least some control over the infrastructure.

Anyway, I find Georgie's comment fascinating. Sounds like there's a way to
guarantee SMS delivery, though. From Wikipedia on SMS/SS7[1]:

> Therefore, it is possible to avoid delays and message losses, offering full
> delivery guarantees of messages and optimized routing. This model is
> particularly efficient when used in mission-critical messaging and SMS used
> in corporate communications.

[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS#SMS_gateway_providers>

------
kevinr
Yes.

------
pensive8675309
Pensive?

------
michaelochurch
Shitty jobs happen. People don't always admit to them, but they're common. A
lot of the most successful people seem to have pristine careers and nothing
bad to say about any company where they've worked. That's called rewriting
history. People _want_ to be perceived as having an unbroken string of
successes, but almost no one this in their actual track record. You had a bad
job, and now you're depleted, and you probably think your situation is a lot
worse than it actually is. No. This is not unusual, and I think 90% of the
people reading this thought, "man, that could have been me at one time".

You're not "damaged" because you had a terrible job. This is as common as
dirt. Don't take it personally and don't let it affect you emotionally. Almost
everyone has had one. If you can afford to take two months off to do recover,
do so. If not, then find a job that will allow you to work 9-to-5 and recover
on your own time.

On work hours: most startups will have _occasional_ spikes, but well-managed
ones will try to keep a 40-45 hour per week average. When people are working
70 hours per week, the quality of work deteriorates quickly. It's a really
short-sighted strategy. There are a lot of startups that push people to work
70 hours, but most of those are going to crash and burn.

Also, what happens to most people as they get older is that they have mostly
negative work experiences, because most companies are badly managed, and they
learn things to avoid. People learn things with experience like, "Working 70
hours per week for months on end doesn't actually work out well." IMO, that's
what the 20s, for the smartest people, are actually about: watching people in
power fuck up so you know what not to do when you're in charge. Eventually,
you'll be in a position to do things properly. It might take a while.

Some things to avoid, going forward: (1) Don't take jobs where the company
isn't willing to tell you what you'll be working on. That usually means you're
going to be allocated to the least desirable projects. (2) Stay away from the
VC darlings, which have (as of 2012, mid-bubble) been infested in MBA culture
and are companies in which you're likely to get some insultingly low (~0.01%
equity) "profit sharing" offer while making 60 percent of market salary. (3)
Don't take an offer just because it's "a startup". Most of these hot startups
won't exist in 5 years. Evaluate the job based on the people you'll be working
with and the type of work you'll get, not the size of the company. (4) Don't
think you're desperate or that your negative experience makes you less
qualified for the types of jobs you actually want. Negative experiences are
very common, and it gets easier to recover from them as you get older. (5) On
job interviews, don't discuss the negative experiences or the bad employer. At
all. Bad job experiences are too common to deserve the "silent shame" stigma,
but nonetheless, a job interview is just not the place for that. Keep the
conversation positive and focused on the future.

For the record, I don't think it actually matters what size of company you
work for. There are groups within large companies doing amazing things, and
there are awful startups. "Bureaucracy", in the toxic (rather than mildly
annoying) sense, is about power dynamics and I've seen dysfunctional
relationships in small companies and much as large. In 2006, it was pretty
clear that startups were the place to go if you wanted to learn a lot quickly,
because we were coming off a bust, startups were undervalued by labor as much
as investors, and there were a lot of challenging technical problems in small
companies. I don't think that's as true now as it was then. In Real
Technology, yes, that's still true; but most of these VC darlings in "social
media" are a joke and you won't learn much in them.

What seems to be a trend, in 2012, is that a lot of large companies are
developing small and mostly-autonomous groups that I think of as akin to
"honors colleges" in order to get a level of talent that would otherwise go
exclusively to academia, finance, and startups. Right now, I think the VC
startup scene is played out and these honors colleges are a better avenue.

~~~
sliverstorm
_On job interviews, don't discuss the negative experiences or the bad
employer. At all._

I've been asked point-blank for critiques of past employers before. What is
the best response?

~~~
SeanOC
This is pretty comparable to being asked to be critical of yourself (e.g.
"What's your biggest weakness"). Generally speaking this is a bit of a trap
and your main goal should be to not take the bait and move on to another topic
ASAP. If they really press the issue focus on issues where there's nobody to
blame and there's not that much that's going to be held against anybody (e.g.
Old Co become very big which was fun but now I'm looking to be part of a
smaller team). The key thing is to keep things positive and move on to why you
want to work for them instead of why you don't want to work for your old
employer.

~~~
j_baker
I don't know about the question being a trap. If you don't try to be too sly
about it, you might even turn it into a plus for you. If it were me
interviewing, my biggest concern would be that the OP is burned out, and
thinks that working at a startup will be nothing but sunshine and lollipops.

Instead try being a bit more concrete: "I didn't like BigCo because of
<specific, observable and especially non-judgemental facts go here>. Some
people like that, but that's just not what I enjoy. I'm curious to hear if you
feel I'll run into the same problem working for you."

If a candidate said that, I'd be more convinced that:

1\. The candidate is willing to leave the BigCo world behind.

2\. The candidate has realistic expectations of what a startup will be like.

~~~
thrwwy20120508
For the record, I think I wrote enough in the original post to show that I'm
highly skeptical of startups that claim to have awesome work environments.
That said, the community response has definitely been helpful for me to figure
out some realistic expectations.

~~~
j_baker
Let me reframe what you just said. Yes, your post _does_ show that. But do you
plan on showing that post to any potential employers? It's just as important
for you to demonstrate that to potential employers as it was for you to
demonstrate it to us. You have to skirt a very fine line between demonstrating
that you want to work for them and demonstrating that this want is reasonable
and not based in fantasy.

~~~
thrwwy20120508
> But do you plan on showing that post to any potential employers?

I probably won't say it in the way I wrote the post, since I think it will be
open to misinterpretation that might close some doors unnecessarily. But I
will definitely bring up my expectations as a matter of concern.

Indeed, a fine line to walk.

------
heretohelp
I'm the CTO at a startup (which happens to be hiring frontend, mobile, and
backend people I might add!) and we don't look for "rockstars" or "ninjas".

We look for competent engineers who are naturally curious people that will fit
in with the team. Fitting in with the team isn't important because we want you
to spend all your free time with your coworkers (god no, go get some fresh
air!), but because we want people to naturally want to help and teach each
other.

My point is that decent people are out there. Not just in startups, but in a
variety of environments. Just make your next company one you pick because of
the cool people you met in the interviewing process, not because they offered
$5k more than the other guy. Your sanity isn't worth losing over that.

If you're a frontend, iOS, or backend (Open to anybody willing to learn
Python) engineer who wants to work with people who work sane hours and still
get things done, contact me. :)

~~~
Estragon
In firefox 3.6.23, when I hit the "F.A.Q" link on the front page of Nutrivise,
the FAQ page is displayed for a second or two, then the front page is
displayed again. The problem may be that /faq/ is redirecting to /#faq/. HTH.

~~~
mkopinsky
Out of curiosity, why are you using FF3? I've seen lots of people use IEold
for corporate policy reasons, but it's much less common to see users of FFold.

~~~
heretohelp
I'm told FF3.6 is pretty nice on ancient hardware, especially if you're tab-
happy.

