

Software Development Is Bad For Your Health - aliston
http://www.alexmedearis.com/software-development-is-bad-for-your-health-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/

======
henrik_w
Great to see ergonomics issues getting attention on HN. When you ignore (or
are unaware of) ergonomic issues for years, you can get into serious trouble
(like I did). I had been programming for over 10 years without any problems
(and without paying any attention to ergonomics), and 7 years ago I got
Repetitive Stress Injury (RSI) really bad. I tried many things to get rid of
it, but it was very hard to get rid of. The RSI got so bad that I thought I
had to give up programming all together.

Fortunately I managed to find a combination that worked for me. The most
important component was using a break program that made sure I took breaks to
rest my arms and hands, and to do some exercises. I also switched to an
ergonomic keyboard and mouse. I am now completely recovered, but it really
made me realize that we need to pay attention to ergonomics.

I've written up my story in more detail here:
<http://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/>

In addition to what I mention in my post, I am now also using a height-
adjustable desk (like the OP). It's really good to be able to switch between
sitting and standing. If you are like me for the first 10 years of my career
(i.e. ignoring ergonomics), consider paying a little bit of attention now,
otherwise it may become a problem later on.

~~~
MisterWebz
You wrote the exact same comment here.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4988649>

~~~
henrik_w
Well spotted! Just a few minor edits. But I do think it's important to get the
message out - it's so easy to ignore, and then you can end up with real
problems and real pain for a long time.

------
twentysix
There was a study conducted a while back which showed that the optimum body-
thigh angle for sitting was not 90 degrees but 135 degrees.

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6187080.stm>

[http://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/pr_target....](http://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/pr_target.cfm?ID=294)

~~~
jedmeyers
The only drawback of a far laid-back position is that the neck might start to
hurt.

------
ArchD
The title is hyped and inaccurate. It's not software development that's bad
for health. It's the bad sitting posture and that's not essential to software
development.

~~~
aliston
It's true that the title might be a little hyped. However, the most
interesting thing I learned was that improving sitting posture alone will not
alleviate standing posture problems.

------
kokey
Internal Server Error

It seems like writing about ergonomics is bad for web servers ;-)

~~~
aliston
Didn't expect so much traffic! Here's a cached version:

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.alexmedearis.com/why-
software-development-destroys-your-health-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/)

~~~
bluepanda_
Nice move!

------
raverbashing
About ergonomics, there's several things I don't do (and you shouldn't as
well)

\- Don't use your laptop without a 'docking station' for long. Strain to your
neck, back and hand/wrist. A mouse/keyboard and support to keep the screen at
eye level does wonders

\- Don't use a 'moving mouse'. Apple magic trackpad is great. Trackballs are
great as well.

\- Even better, limit the use of a pointing device (if your job allows it,
e.g. for anything graphic this is difficult). Today I do most of my work with
keyboard alone, even web browsing (the exception is clicking links and
buttons)

~~~
dankoss
Any ideas for file manipulation with the keyboard? With long Windows paths
there's no way a CLI is going to be faster than moving files around with
Explorer, which is not very keyboard friendly. I've looked at alternative file
managers and haven't found anything that sticks.

~~~
Too
What's not keyboard friendly about explorer? I find it very easy to work with,
actually one of the most keyboard friendly programs i have! Arrows and
_typing_ for navigation, (shift+)tab for jumping from tree to file
list(without mouse you actually get used to working without tree-view, i have
mine always hidden), ctrl+c/v/x = duh. F2=Rename, Ctrl+shift+n = new folder.
Alt+Up = Up, Alt+left/right = back/forward. Alt+D = Navigation bar(with
autocomplete!). Ctrl+E = Search. Alt+P = Preview, Contextmenubutton alone =
right mouse button (i'm surprised many people don't know about this button),
this contains almost all the remaining things you need that don't have a
dedicated hotkey, and even this list can be navigated quickly with the
keyboard, for example Contextmenubutton+R = Properties, Or N for SendTo.

Frequently working with two different folders? open a new window(Ctrl+N) and
dock one window on each side of the screen with win+left/right. Then simply
alt+tab between them, or use the win+nr if you have it docked on your taskbar.

The only thing i'm missing for keyboard navigation is a hotkey to toggle
navigation bar on/off and a more sleek autocomplete, such as visual studios or
quicksilver.

~~~
dankoss
Great suggestions, thanks.

------
clintjhill
I've been doing CrossFit for a year now. I couldn't articulate enough how it
has improved my posture and general fitness. There isn't one particular thing
about CrossFit, rather the whole. I'd recommend to anyone.

~~~
tapatio
I'm all for CrossFit as long as it's free. Some people are paying $150 a
month. That's just stupid.

~~~
clintjhill
Technically it's free. Plenty of websites with all sorts of helpful
information about programming. But paying to be a part of a box and a small
community while working in a competitive environment is worth money. To me at
least.

------
edw519
My grandfather:

Maybe the smartest and most talented person I ever met.

Born in 1895 is eastern Europe and as a child never went to school, missed
many meals, feared for his safety, and emigrated to the U.S. alone at age 11.
Married my grandmother 6 years later and raised 6 children in a 2 room flat
during the depression. His entire adulthood: painted buildings with lead-based
paint, installed asbestos, smoked cigarettes, and lived in Pittsburgh back
when the skies were black with soot all day long. Worked his ass off and
suffered and died from emphysema at age 80.

Me:

I write software in an air-conditioned office, eat delicious healthy food
every meal, work out at a fancy gym, and have more money than I know what to
do with.

I'd say we have it pretty easy.

~~~
csomar
Sure we have it pretty easy but you are making a wrong comparison here. You
can't compare the life and health standards of the early 1900 with our health
and life standards (at least in the developed world). Things moved for the
better not only for Software developers.

The right comparison is between you and someone who has achieved the same
education/social level in the same period of time.

~~~
segmondy
You miss the point. His point is that if his grandfather died at 80yrs old. He
has a good chance of living up to 80 too.

~~~
westward
You both miss the point. The plural of anecdote is not data and the singular
is "Who cares?".

For a man born in 1895, life expectancy was 48 years. For a man born in 1985,
life expectancy is 71 years.

~~~
lasthemy
You really want to measure life expectancy for people entering working age to
avoid measuring infant mortality. Those numbers sound like they don't take
that into account.

~~~
mcguire
Aged 20, 1890: 61. Aged 20, 2004: 77.

<http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html>

------
noss
My problems with shoulder and wrist pains all originate from stressful
projects. When you sit entire days with your muscles tense, over and over
again, that is when problems start to occur.

I can not connect my problems to bad ergonomics, because the way I was sitting
in front of my computer all the way up until university years, those were far
from ergonomic positions. But if you are relaxed and have fun, you
automatically vary your posture and position.

Ergonomic chairs and keyboards are only one way to make you be able to endure
your stressful work condition a bit longer when you sit there stressed trying
to meet deadlines and whatever problems you fight with. The pains will show
up, only later.

Myself, I often try to wake up from the work, feel my body and if I'm actually
stressed. Take a deep breath, see if I can let my arms hang loose and relaxed.
If I feel that I'm actually sweaty and have a high pulse, then I need to go
for a walk. A good manager that I can bring this up with helps.

Also a bit of a fuck-off attitude also helps: My health is so much more
valuable than the job and its compensation.

------
nileshk
I can't read the article as the server is not responding, but from what I
gather it's about RSI, carpel tunnel, etc. I'd like to present an alternate
viewpoint and suggest that RSI is not caused by physical action, such as
typing on a computer keyboard or bad posture, but rather it's root cause is
psychological (with the understanding that physical things are happening, but
they are controlled by your mind).

I suggest reading "The Mindbody Prescription" by Dr John E Sarno. Here is one
of the better summary of the ideas (in Word doc format):
<http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc>

Personally, I have been pain free for over 10 years thanks to this.

Here is the story of someone else who cured his RSI pain using this method, it
is very similar to what I experienced: [http://aaroniba.net/articles/tmp/how-
i-cured-my-rsi-pain.htm...](http://aaroniba.net/articles/tmp/how-i-cured-my-
rsi-pain.html)

~~~
zwegner
Same here. It was really quite bad, I had nerve pain 24/7, numbness, soreness,
you name it. In fact, when I first learned about TMS, it got worse. I was
unemployed, and going through very bad depression, and despite ceasing all
computer use, I was still in constant pain. I think my subconscious was just
sadistically causing me pain.

Anyways, the symptoms disappeared quite suddenly during an LSD trip, weirdly
enough. It was one of the most blissful days of my life, just relaxing in
nature with some good friends.

Still unemployed and depressed, but at least I don't have horrible pain to
deal with every day...

------
rartichoke
Good tips. Also I think it's really important to get up and walk around every
few hours if you're sitting.

If your boss won't allow you to do this then seriously consider quitting. Your
personal health is way more important than some job where you're taking orders
from someone who won't even give you 10min to walk around.

------
djb_hackernews
Anyone have experience with eye issues? I've seen Ophthalmologists and my
vision is perfect, but I am constantly in discomfort/ border line pain and
it's been like this for over 2 years. I know it's due to computer use but
various "therapies" don't seem to be making a difference. Would love to hear
your experiences.

Edit: I've gotten some great responses below. In case it helps anyone here is
what I do to help myself:

* lower the brightness of displays as low as possible

* make sure I am looking down at any screens

* fish oil supplements

* I wear these ridiculous yellow tinted motorcycle sunglasses (motorcycle sunglasses are padded, trapping moisture)

* avoid overhead fluorescent lighting

~~~
wes-exp
I've struggled sometimes too. Try increasing your font size. My vision is
excellent, but I think staring at tiny fonts increases strain on your eye
muscles or something.

Also, as monitors have gone up in resolution over the years, pixel density has
increased, shrinking the default font size from what is appropriate for the
eyes.

Lowering the brightness is not always beneficial. In fact, the opposite can be
true. Brightness is usually controlled electronically by rapidly switching the
backlight on and off. Therefore, lowering the brightness can increase the
amount of flicker, which is imperceptible but still implicated in strain. Try
turning the brightness all the way up, which will minimize flicker. If it's
too bright, wear sunglasses and see if that helps.

~~~
mgkimsal
" Try increasing your font size."

It'd be great if many apps actually _let_ you do that. Finder on OSX - how do
increase the font size there? IntelliJ - how do you increase the font size
there? I can increase the font size of my editing area, but not of the tree
area with files in it.

Have been using macs for the past few years, and this is my one of my biggest
bugbears - font sizes are often very locked down, and I end up having to shift
my position or squint.

~~~
dictum
>Finder on OSX - how do increase the font size there?

While browsing a folder, do a secondary click (right button on Magic Mouse or
two-finger click on a trackpad), open "Show view options". A popup window will
appear; select your desired font size (I think 16px is the maximum). Then
click on "Use as defaults" and all folder and file labels will use the same
font size.

~~~
mgkimsal
thanks. doesn't help for the sidebar text though. :/

------
thomasmeeks
Just to toss down what's worked for me in case it helps someone else:

I was on the brink of RSI (numbness in the fingers) until I changed to a
Kinesis Advantage keyboard, and a trackball mouse (thumb movement). Some
lingering issues were cleared up with exercise -- mostly wrist rollers and
grip training. I still use a flat keyboard & normal mouse occasionally without
issue.

Back pain is a little battle, but a good chair (Steelcase Think) is night &
day if you're sitting for more than a few hours at a time. Generally I do the
best here when I'm not being lazy about my exercise. Squats, deadlifts,
weighted sit-ups, etc. all help a ton.

~~~
miloshadzic
Are you on a Mac? Is the kinesis hard to sanely configure for it? I gave up on
the MS Natural 4000 for that reason.

Also agree that most people here would benefit from a strength training
routine.

~~~
toasterlovin
The Kinesis Advantage works fairly well for me on the Mac. You can change key
layouts on the keyboard itself (as opposed to the OS) if something isn't to
your liking.

There is one thing that I missed though: play, pause, ff, volume and
brightness controls on the keyboard. I haven't worked out a solution for
volume and brightness, but play, pause, and ff I do with keyboard shortcuts
through Quicksilver.

~~~
toasterlovin
Just wanted to clarify: it looks like you _can_ set different key bindings for
screen brightness in the Mac's preferences. I can't find similar for volume
controls though...

------
randyl
Along the same lines, I had bad posture for a long time, and always wondered
what to do about it. "Stand up straight" was too simplistic, and "do yoga" was
too broad.

The solution that worked for me came from books by Pete Egoscue. "Health
Through Motion", especially: [http://www.amazon.com/Egoscue-Method-Health-
Through-Motion/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Egoscue-Method-Health-Through-
Motion/dp/0060924306/)

He describes how to analyze posture (once you learn, you see signs of bad
posture -- aka muscle imbalances -- in nearly everyone: people at work, at the
store, even professional athletes), and then he lists dozens of simple
exercises that work to restore your muscle balance. And at some point you'll
do an exercise that engages a muscle you haven't used in years, and when that
happens, your body feels FANTASTIC!!

The books are just the tip of the iceberg, too. There are Egoscue clinics
around the country that can take you to advanced levels.

------
graeme
I had arm trouble while typing for a while, and fixed it.

Trigger point therapy was the big one. I had a few spots in my right forearm
that were messed up. The therapist jabbed them. It hurt terribly, but then my
arm was much better.

I'm strong enough that I can now do the same thing to my own arm if I feel it
getting tense. Armaid is also a great tool for this.

On my left arm, I had something worse. Found a physiotherapist who did MAT
(muscle activation technique) and he managed to work out some adhesions in the
upper part of my left hand.

If you have pain, go see a relevant therapist. There's a decent chance you
have some kind of muscle trouble.

Note: I saw several non-useful therapists. For muscle adhesion problems,
results should be pretty quick. I only needed 1-2 sessions with each of these
guys.

------
triplesec
Don't improve your sitting posture: stand instead! We know about posture, but
we're rubbish at it because humans are lazy! More scientists say you should
stand or treadmill while working, and I definitely concur.

Standing is so much better for you:
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20947605>

and [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2010/10...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2010/10/16/AR2010101602903.html)

and [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/business/stand-up-desks-
ga...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/business/stand-up-desks-gaining-
favor-in-the-workplace.html?_r=0)

------
josephv
I'm one of those crazies that use the Kenesis Advantage for RSI. That and a
larger mouse helped me.

~~~
wglb
Fully agree.

Use of this keyboard totally reduced very severe hand pain.

Also, after an adjustment period, I now type faster.

------
LoganCale
I was getting a lot of the negative side effects of sitting at a computer all
day over the past few years, and I made several changes that have really
helped, including: hiking once to twice a week, switching positions regularly
between sitting at a desk, reclining on a couch, and standing, and making sure
to move around regularly through the day, avoiding those long periods of
sitting still for hours. The constant headache and random pains I was having
have faded.

------
TallboyOne
The article isn't loading, but on a related note I just had a brief discussion
about standing desks on my site, and finally bought a Geek Desk. If you are
wanting to buy one I list 3 good brands here, and also my warnings about them
(below) if you are tall.

I'm so excited for it to come in the mail it makes me sick.

<http://pineapple.io/discussion/standing-desks>

------
mkhalil
Not only software developers sit in desks. Most employees in my company aren't
software developers. I'm glad this article is one about the physical problems
of sitting incorrectly all day, as oppose to the increasing "this isn't good
for your health articles", describing software development as a deadly
stressfull depressing job that isn't for everyone. If your health is
deteriorating due to software development, YOUR DOING IT WRONG! :)

------
brunnsbe
I have both a standing desk at work and a special saddle that I can sit on and
use it on every chair: <http://www.humantool.fi/english/>

The idea with the saddle is that it is so unbalanced that you have to correct
your position with small movements all the time.

------
ironchef
Another option which allows one to sit and keep the core engaged are things
like a the swopper chair or exercise/swiss/balance balls. Because of the
nature of the subtle movements, your hip flexors are engaged often (as long as
you don't completely slouch on them).

------
gizzlon
FWIW, my biggest wrist and arm problems came from using a "sticky" mouse. As
the mouse and pad gets "old" and dirty, there's often a lot of friction when
moving the mouse.

The mouse should move very easily. (try lightly touching it with you little
finger)

------
Dirlewanger
Want a solution to 95% of problems associated with sitting 10+ hours/day? Try
this: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI> You'll feel worked at the
end.

~~~
mhurron
If you're worried about sitting all day, drink more. Water, tea, coffee,
anything really. You'll have to go to the bathroom more, that WILL get you out
of your chair.

Green Tea keeps me moving.

~~~
jroseattle
Please allow me to prioritize: water, and some tea. Coffee is next on the
list. Nothing else that comes pre-packaged will do you one bit of good.

~~~
AlexandrB
Because of sugar?

What about milk, sugarfree soda, or sugarfree juice?

~~~
jroseattle
I'll let everyone make their own determinations about milk -- I would be a
skim-only person, and then only sparingly. But if asked for a recommendation,
I would say limit milk intake to much less than water.

Sugarfree soda = the devil.

Sugarfree juice -- the real stuff -- is probably ok in moderation. However, a
good chunk of the health value in fruits comes with the pulps and skins and
pithes and the like. Fruit juice is really just a portion of the healthy
nutrients one can get from fruit. Moderation is the key, as the glycemic load
of fruit juice, even just the squeezed stuff, can really be high.

Never mind what all this stuff does to one's dental health, which is harsh
(even milk is a culprit.) I simply can't encourage those of us who sit at
desks in this job to drink enough water. 64 oz is the recommended minimum a
day, but I think it should be higher.

Caveat: this works for me, so your mileage may vary.

------
sejje
Alternative titles:

Working at the DMV is bad for your health

Being a lawyer is bad for your health

Working in management is bad for your health

Driving for a living is (really) bad for your health

etc

------
vignesh_vs_in
An ergonomic chair is the best investment a developer can do.

Am planning to invest in a good ergonomic chair myself, have decided on Herman
Miller Mirra chair. Any suggestion on other not so costly chairs?

~~~
s_baby
When these discussions come up people often mention the Steelcase Leap as an
equal. Find a local store that sells them and try them all out. For me the
major distinguishing point was the lower back support. The cheaper Aeron
version would dig into my back while the Leap had some flexibility to it. I'm
not sure if the higher end Aeron chair would have been superior with the
contouring lower back support but I'm glad I got the Leap over the base Aeron
model.

------
danso
I can only speak from limited personal experience, but I don't know any
programmers/developers with carpal tunnel syndrome (though they may have other
issues), but I know plenty of other office worker friends who do have it. I've
never had it despite all the time I spend at a laptop or a computer.

For my own part, I'm not someone who crunches at the keyboard for sustained
periods of time, and I regularly switch up between mouse and trackpad and
trackball. But I wonder if for non-hackers, the reliance on the mouse and, in
my opinion, _extremely_ inefficient computer operating methods, is a factor in
how a standard office worker can get CTS even though they spend less time at a
computer than your average professional developer.

~~~
to3m
I've known a couple with carpal tunnel syndrome. But even if you exclude that,
just about every programmer I know over the age of 25 has had some kind of
wrist or hand pain at some point. Probably due to the amount of typing and
mousing involved. (I fully predict the rebuttal to be that these people are
doing it wrong.)

In most cases there seems to be no long-term damage, and the injuries in
question are probably not terribly serious. It's just harder to rest one
wrists or fingers than it is (say) one's knee, ankle or shoulder.

~~~
ahelwer
I developed a horrible pain in my right wrist at the age of 20, during my
first software development internship. Any motion I made with the mouse was
torture. I had to start using the mouse with my left hand to do work at all.

The pain is gone now, but I take ergonomics quite a bit more seriously. I'm
considering getting a split keyboard, although it breaks my heart to have to
get rid of my clicky das.

~~~
toasterlovin
It's expensive at $300, but the Kinesis Advantage is split and fairly clicky.

<http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm>

I have one and love it. You have to be willing to invest time in it though: it
took me 2 weeks to get up to full speed, plus I spent a bunch of time
remapping the thumb keys to my liking.

~~~
tomkinstinch
I got a Kinesis about a year ago after developing wrist pain, and second the
recommendation. It took me a full month to get back up to speed on it but now
my wrist pain is gone. The keys feel nice too. My only complaint is that it
makes it difficult to type one-handed while I'm eating, but I really shouldn't
be eating at the computer anyway. :)

Something else I tried was putting my mouse on a slant away from the keyboard
so that the radius and ulna were not as pronated. This helped, but my mouse
kept sliding off the incline. Ideally I'd like something at an angle in
between a standard horizontal mouse and the vertical ones like the Evoluent.
It seems there are a few new models on Amazon since I looked last--may have to
try one. My pain is more in the arm than the wrist, so fine wrist motion is
more important than being completely vertical. At some point it may just make
sense to 3D print a mouse of the appropriate shape...

~~~
toasterlovin
For me, mousing has been consistently and terribly painful. I bought a right-
handed Evoluent mouse (I am right handed) and it worked wonders, until a
period of particularly intense mousing, at which point I bought a left-handed
model.

Now, I primarily use the left-handed Evoluent mouse. During periods of intense
mousing, if I start to feel pain, I'll switch to the right-handed Evoluent
mouse for a week or two.

You mentioned wanting a mouse which put your hand at an angle in between a
standard mouse (horizontal) and the Evoluent mouse (vertical). Is there a
particular reason for this?

I ask because I've found the Evoluent to be incredibly comfortable. Besides
which, a vertical orientation most closely emulates the position your hands
would be in when you are anatomically at rest (standing, with your hands
hanging down at your sides).

As much as I love the Evoluent mouse, I still feel that eliminating mousing
from my computer use is the Right Way to address mouse related pain. Treat the
root cause, not the symptoms, as they say.

I basically use keyboard shortcuts for everything. The two parts of using a
computer which I found most difficult to control with a keyboard were web
browsing and window resizing / management.

For web browsing I stumbled upon Chrome + the Vimium extension. It has non-
chording key bindings for switching tabs, moving around on the page, following
links, copying (yanking) text, etc. Basically, Vimium adds Vim-like
keybindings to many common browser tasks. Find it here:
<http://vimium.github.com/>

For window resizing and management, I use Moom (it's a Mac application). It is
fantastic. You can setup key bindings to resize a window to a preset
dimension, among other things; but that's what I use it for primarily. I have
3 key bindings that I use all the time: 1) full screen, 2) two thirds on the
left side of the screen, and 3) one third on the right hand side of the
screen. Moom is here: <http://manytricks.com/moom/>

I've also become aware of Slate for window management on the Mac, which looks
amazing, but is a tool of the large investment / large payoff sort, and I just
haven't had much free time lately. Slate is here:
<https://github.com/jigish/slate>

------
tapatio
Screw this stuff! My thin GF has anterior pelvic tilt and it looks hot!

