
Goodbye Amazon - beat
https://www.princeton-audio.com/company-news/goodbye-amazon-and-good-riddance
======
jasode
_> Our Site:1 speakers are lovingly handcrafted. We make them one at a time,
to our customer's desired spec, [...] If all goes smoothly, this process takes
about six weeks._

 _> Amazon relentlessly pushed us to accept lead-times that were typically
only four days, and sometimes demanded fulfillment of orders in as little as
24 hours--including delivery._

Amazon is not really an appropriate distribution platform for 6-week custom-
made-to-order products. Maybe there's another well-known retail site that
caters to that type of vendor but it certainly isn't Amazon (or Walmart).

One way for Princeton Audio to become compatible with Amazon's short lead
times is to run some sophisticated projections (e.g. "demand planning") on the
most likely customer combinations[1] and build an inventory of those ahead of
time. (Sell semi-custom on Amazon with immediate delivery but fully custom on
Princeton's own website with 6-week wait.) However, that requires a big
capital investment -- and the hassles of managing inventory.

[1] PA's website shows 32 possible combinations (4 woods x 4 metals x 2
batteries) so maybe prebuild and sell only the most popular 3 configurations
on Amazon.com

[https://store.princeton-
audio.com/products/site1-bluetooth-s...](https://store.princeton-
audio.com/products/site1-bluetooth-speaker)

~~~
theossuary
As a customer of Amazon I think Amazon should definitely be an appropriate
distribution platform for anything. They have digital downloads, monthly
subscripts, extremely large items; I don't think it's unreasonable to allow
items with long fulfillment times (especially items handcrafted based on
customer request).

I've been very fed up with Amazon's selection, the number of scams and reduced
quality on Amazon has seemed (at least anecdotally) to have skyrocketed. I
think this article shows that Amazon's quality control issue is at least
partially an issue with Amazon themselves, and not just the reseller market.
Disallowing high quality products because they can't be made fast enough just
smacks of poor planning on Amazon's part. I don't think anybody wants a market
with a million crappy items, they want a market with as many quality items as
possible, but no more.

~~~
mustacheemperor
I cannot describe how frustrating it is to get a completely counterfeit
product off amazon or to have to carefully comb through reviews to make sure a
previously great product hasn't been replaced with an inferior one differing
from the description and photos - and I doubt I have to, since it happens to
_everyone_ who uses amazon regularly now. I too am feeling fed up, and it's
getting to the point where it's now convenient enough to just drive to the
store since at least that way I know I'm getting what I pay for and not
something literally different from what's depicted.

Case in point, I was looking for a motorcycle trickle charger and was pleased
to find the same battery tender I remember my father using on Amazon[0].
However, a cursory look at the reviews shows it has been redesigned and is
different and less reliable than the product in the photos and descriptions,
and is available online for cheaper with the same shipping. The solution? I
drove to walmart and bought the trickle charger I remember my dad having
because it was on the shelf there.

[0][https://www.amazon.com/Battery-
Tender-021-0123-lightweight-a...](https://www.amazon.com/Battery-
Tender-021-0123-lightweight-automatic/dp/B000CITK8S)

~~~
dbg31415
I bought a NAS off Amazon a few years ago... one of their 3rd party sellers
had the same product for $50 cheaper so I went with that.

Anyway, what happened next was really amusing to me.

I get the product about 8 weeks later... I had tried to cancel because it was
so slow, and Amazon wouldn't let me -- they said I had to receive the product
and then send it back as a return once I got it in order to get a refund.

I was planning on just sending the box back the same day... but something
caught my eye. The box had come from Shenzhen, China. Curious I cut open the
outside box.

Immediately I saw that the NAS they sent inside had been opened, and had been
re-tapped shut -- and poorly, there was a clear bulge on top of the box. My
heart sank a bit... but I figured, "Well, let's see -- maybe it was a return
or something... can't hurt to open it again since it's already been opened."

Inside the NAS box, all the manuals are in Chinese... and seem like they are
just photocopies of the originals. The NAS was not in the original packaging,
but rather elaborate bubble wrap. And there's a China to US power adapter to
the cord.

I'm curious if it would even turn on, so I plug in the NAS... It boots! But
not in English. I'm thinking, "What did I just buy?!" But I can sort of read
some of the messages and it seems like instead of 4x2GB drives, it came with
4x4GB drives. Interesting.

It's late so I leave it initializing the drives (I think that's what it was
doing anyway) and go to bed. Next morning I wake up, and it's still
initializing the drives. Fuck it... time to call tech support and get my money
back. The little light kept blinking yellow, but I couldn't read anything.

I email Amazon to initiate the return process, then go to work. I leave the
NAS running -- honestly just sort of forgot about it. Got pulled into a
business trip that day, so it was about 4 days until I got back to focus on
the project again. When I got home the little yellow light on the NAS was
still blinking, and I thought it was weird that I hadn't gotten an email from
the seller with return instructions.

I email Amazon to tell them I hadn't heard anything back from the seller, and
since I had to wait anyway, decided to call tech support. Cringe.

The thing was, the NAS was still doing something. The drives were still
spinning... but after 4 days... I figured it wasn't doing anything good. But I
didn't unplug it. I read the serial number to the guy in tech support.
Pause... "Can you read me the serial number again?" I do... longer pause. "Can
you read me the serial number one more time?" I do... Pause... "Please hold,
Sir."

"Sir, where did you get this NAS?" I'd been transferred to someone up the food
chain who told me that the device I had wasn't a valid serial number -- that
the number I gave was for a model that hadn't been released yet. Super weird
conversation, they took all my details, Amazon order number, and told me they
would call me back.

Really late, like 2 AM that night, I got an email from the seller. It just
said, "What wrong?"

So I write back, and my phone signature had my cell phone number on it. I get
a call. At like 3 AM. The guy is polite, but his English isn't great. He tells
me to just unplug the NAS, and plug it back in again -- then walks me through
how to install the English interface. We're chatting for like 2 hours. He's
crazy knowledgeable. We get everything set up, but I have no idea what all I
just put on the device... most of the links he had been emailing me throughout
the process were just IP addresses and paths. But they seem legit... and there
wasn't anything on the NAS yet so I didn't mind running strange updates on it.

He says the yellow light will blink for 4 hours 24 minutes. (I don't remember
the exact number, but the point was it was an exact number.) He says to email
him, not Amazon -- he's very clear about that -- if I need help after. He's a
friendly guy, I liked how helpful he was.

I go back to sleep for a few hours, do some yard work when I wake up, forget
about the NAS, but when I checked later... some point after 4 hours 24
minutes... it's all green and working fine. And it's got twice the space than
I paid for. And it's all in English. Only thing was... when I hit the "check
for updates" option it just spun and nothing happened. But everything else
seemed perfect.

So I'm on the fence... I have this clearly not authentic NAS from some random
guy in China... that the manufacturer says it's not supposed to exist... but
it's 100% bigger than what I thought I paid for...

That night I got an email from the seller, and you can tell he's sad. "I tried
to help you, why did you tell Amazon it was a fake? It not a fake." I wrote
back that I think that was from before he and I spoke, I had called the
manufacturer's tech support to get the issue fixed and they told me the serial
number wasn't real, but that it's working fine for me now.

He was writing back instantly, "It not a fake, you want a refund? I give you
refund, but please don't complain to Amazon about me, I sell good stuff."
Right away I see an email from Amazon telling me that the seller had given me
a 100% refund. He even refunded shipping costs.

I felt awful. Here's this guy who spent 2 hours on the phone with me, probably
spent a lot on an international call, and the manufacturer contacted Amazon
about the order and came down on him for selling counterfeits. Probably scared
him or told him he wouldn't be able to sell on Amazon any more if it was a
fake... who knows.

I write back, "Thanks for the refund, where do I send the NAS? I will pay for
shipping. I didn't mean to get you in trouble."

He writes back, "I'm sorry. It's not a fake. Please don't be mad at me."

The case was marked as resolved at Amazon, the guy told me I didn't have to
return the NAS, and I never heard back from the manufacturer. Free NAS! But a
little guilt because I didn't pay this guy for it, or for his time... and he
stopped responding to my emails after that. I offered to send it back to him
two more times.

About a year later I logged in to the interface, realized the auto-update
feature was working fine. Updated the bios and firmware. I think that was 5-6
years ago now -- it's been running great.

I had raved about the quality of the NAS to a friend, who bought the same
model about 6 months after I did... but his died a few months ago... when we
took it apart to switch out the drives we realized it had totally different
drives and cables, and even the logic board seemed different from the one that
mine had. Sure hardware changes, but... his seemed more legit and polished
inside than mine. Mine has a few spots inside that just look glue-gunned in
place. (=

Anyway yeah, probably 7 years on... my little free (and probably semi-
counterfeit) NAS is still running great.

That call at 3 AM was by far the most knowledgeable of any seller or tech
support person I've ever spoken with.

~~~
Spooky23
Sometimes factories run extra shifts of knockoff product to avoid paying
royalties.

I had this happen once at work with SFPs. They came through a reseller and
were labeled and boxed as one OEM, but were detected as being from another.

~~~
dbg31415
At some point I really do want to visit the black markets in China -- that
video of the guy building his own iPhone as so cool. Everything we get comes
all plastic wrapped and obfuscated, it's cool to remember it's all still just
circuit boards and recognizable components -- just much smaller than we were
used to snapping together in the 80s and 90s.

~~~
Spooky23
Same here. I'd love to have an excuse to visit that giant mall where they have
like 20k manufacturers displaying their stuff.

------
hangonhn
This is a just an ad or marketing stunt for the company.

As most of you pointed out, they picked the wrong distributor for their
business model. Now they are mad and severing relationships.

However, 75% of the article is about their company and their handcrafted
products. Then they offer a discount at the bottom tells you everything you
need to know what this is really about.

This is a publicity and marketing stunt.

~~~
ryanx435
Dude. Every article ever written is a publicity and marketing stunt. Some are
just more obvious about it than others

~~~
nercht12
That's not true! ... Some of them are articles _about_ publicity and marketing
stunts! / ;)

------
AndrewKemendo
_Our Site:1 speakers are lovingly handcrafted. We make them one at a time, to
our customer 's desired spec, using their preferred tonewoods, choice of
hardware, as well as other unique customizations._

...

 _The only way to meet their demands would have been to mass-produce huge
volumes of speakers featuring no customizations._

How is Amazon even possibly a good place to sell this kind of an item? People
overwhelmingly go to Amazon for the cheapest items that are the types of
products that are sold at massive scale.

So if you _can 't_ by virtue of your business model sell 100,000 SKUs
delivered two day prime, then it seems like Amazon would be a terrible place
to try and sell.

I mean it looks like they make a fantastic product for a specific subset of
audiophiles: ones that don't want a system to dominate their home. However
they don't need Amazon's market to get to the scale they claim to want to
reach.

~~~
dsr_
Actually, it looks like they are making nice wood cabinets for cheap low-
quality parts:

\- a "full range" 3" speaker is about $7, quantity 1.

\- a 20W at 10% THD class D amplifier with bluetooth input is $25, retail.
(Yes, that's a terrible spec. It's what Princeton claims.)

\- a battery is $8

\- a few dollars for a fancy knob and grille.

So they are charging about $300 for their cabinets and integration of all the
above. Nice work if you can sell it.

~~~
ctvo
Can you do a breakdown for a MacBook Pro for me. I paid over 3k for the latest
one. I'd love to know how much all the parts cost sans casing and integration.

~~~
cthalupa
As an audio enthusiast who spends far too much money on speakers and other
gear:

This isn't the same. The actual transducers and gear in these things is very
low-end.

Their gimmick seems to be the "tonewoods", which when you take into account
the level of electronics in these is just silly. It's nearly cable riser
levels of snake oil. Couple that with the fact that this is streamed over
bluetooth (They mention using aptX, but not what variant, and even the aptx
'lossless' variant is still lossy in many circumstances... and iPhones and
many android phones don't support aptX at all) where you are using lossy
compression over what is already likely a lossy compressed file, and your
audio quality is going to be pretty terrible, all things considered.

You better be buying these things for the looks, because they're certainly not
worth the price for the level of performance. You might claim you're paying a
premium on an MBP for looks and such, but there's genuinely good hardware
inside a MBP. This is a $30 wireless speaker with $270+ being spent on a
gimmick.

~~~
icc97
You can connect via WiFi too [0]

[0]: [https://youtu.be/zR-LJpLn3SU?t=40s](https://youtu.be/zR-LJpLn3SU?t=40s)

~~~
cthalupa
Ah, good catch, and I stand corrected.

Doesn't resolve the amp and transducer themselves being mediocre, however :(

------
Dayshine
>I'll repeat that: Amazon.com, a reseller, told us that we were not allowed to
raise the price of our own product for any reason.

I don't believe this...

Were you actually selling using "Sell on Amazon/Fulfilment by Amazon"? Or some
3rd party using Amazon for you...?

>Amazon's policy is to never return unsold products to manufacturers

[https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-
amazon/...](https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-
amazon/winning-with-fba/faq.html)

says that:

>Typically, return requests take 10 to 14 business days to pick, pack and
dispatch.

It also goes on to say you can have returned items sent back to you...

>Prior to that, our Amazon buyer had refused to ever reply to any of our
questions or requests for support.

Your what?

~~~
toast0
From the words they're using, I don't think they were selling on Amazon as a
3rd party seller, it sounds more like Amazon was buying from them on wholesale
terms, and then selling to end users as sold and shipped by Amazon.

~~~
jjeaff
Yes, must be. Which really makes no sense as a seller when you can just sell
your product FBA. Especially when you are the manufacturer and can control who
you sell to.

It seems that all their troubles would be solved by just selling themselves on
Amazon as a 3p seller.

~~~
RyanOD
That's exactly what I was thinking. As a 3rd party, merchant fulfilled (not
Amazon fulfilled) seller, it seems like Princeton could have complete control
over their inventory, lead times, etc. However, this is all an assumption.
Anyone know for certain how that all works?

~~~
jjeaff
All of those things are true. As a 3p seller you have total control.

------
j-c-hewitt
They could have used Amazon Custom (which is a new service that's mostly
focused on apparel, but still) or Amazon Handmade (Amazon's Etsy clone)
instead of using the typical system for selling manufactured products. They
were setting themselves up for failure by selling an artisan product on a
marketplace designed for factory produced goods.

It makes no sense to criticize Amazon for being what it is, which is mostly a
platform to buy standardized, affordable, manufactured stuff.

They went into the Amazon Vendor program not really understanding what it
entailed. A lot of big companies that also participate in the Vendor program
have similar complaints about it to this guy (especially in regards to price
inflexibility) but there are similar problems when you sell to any big
retailer. There are also plenty of problems and headaches with, say, selling
to Best Buy or Wal-Mart, that you don't have when you sell to Amazon.

They could have also just focused on eBay and taken advantage of the more
lenient return policies. Or just focused on their own website. I understand
why all of this would be confusing and frustrating if they are primarily a
small niche manufacturer accustomed to selling direct to high-end consumers on
their own website.

But that would have just been successful for them and not have made a good
viral marketing blog post that hooks into a ready mass of resentful people who
are looking for something to be mad on the internet about.

TBH they would make more money by figuring out how to reach audiophiles who
want high end custom speakers on Amazon than just trying to gin up outrage
with a coupon attached to it. Some people would rather be mad than just
quietly successful. The overlap between people who get outraged against big
corporations on the internet and people who want to buy $335 desktop speakers
is very limited. Better off finding those rich and picky audiophiles and
appealing directly to them.

~~~
pgrote
I am a huge amazon customer and fan. Thank you for mentioning Amazon Handmade
... I had no idea it existed. How odd is that? I don't think I've seen an
email from them about it and it never shows in product searches.

~~~
j-c-hewitt
It's quite new. It does show up for some product searches but to really
surface it you have to know it exists. Same thing with Custom.

~~~
paulcole
Amazon Handmade is nearly 2 years old.

------
hannob
When I read sentences like this: "We steadfastly refuse to be purveyors of
cheap, plastic, mass-produced, craptastic speakers made on an assembly line in
China that contribute nothing of value to the lives of our customers or the
town we call home."

I'm always amazed how much subtle racism seems to be acceptable when it comes
to talking about China.

This sentence contains so many hidden assumptions, e.g. "product from china ==
crap" and "person in our home town earning money == good, person in china
earning money == bad".

~~~
bostonpete
Many Chinese goods traditionally have had a reputation of low quality. Maybe
that reputation is outdated or perhaps it was never quite accurate (?), but
either way I don't think it's reasonable to label a reference to that
reputation as racist. Nor is wanting to build businesses that benefit your
local community racist or particularly wrong.

~~~
colmvp
Almost every object in my house has some sort of component made in China. The
fact that I haven't had to replace any of them in years AND that it didn't
cost an arm and a leg compared to being manufactured here in my local country
should be testament to the output of that country.

It's like we're completely spoiled by how absurdly cheap and mostly reliable
things that we use on a day to day basis.

To me, it's akin to the stereotypes of foreign professional athletes such as
European basketball players or Russian hockey players. When we find the
examples that validate it, it reinforces the stereotype. But then, we
completely ignore the countless examples that counter it, both in terms of
high quality performers from the foreign country as well as poorly performing
examples produced from ones own country.

There's nothing that implicitly makes something made in Canada, or USA, or
Germany that much better than if it were made in China.

~~~
awfgylbcxhrey
>There's nothing that implicitly makes something made in Canada, or USA, or
Germany that much better than if it were made in China.

I'd say that there is, sort of. Much of the manufacturing that remains in the
USA is for industrial applications, with specific requirements for performance
and reliability. We basically exported the consumer product manufacturing
category, and with it went the majority of the low quality market.

It's like the legendary status of "American made tools". When my grandfather
passed away, I got some of his American tools from the 40s - 70s. They're
junkier than most tools you'll find at Walmart or Harbor Freight today. Why?
Because he was relatively poor and bought cheap, domestic tools built for the
hobbiest market.

The one exception I've read is that China isn't producing raw steel that's as
high quality as US and German steel. I was looking into tubing benders awhile
back and read several accounts of even high-grade Chinese steel kinking at the
same wall thickness where American and German steel continued to bend
smoothly.

------
ChuckMcM
This is one of those posts that would be more impactful with the Amazon emails
embedded in the post. When you can have the bad guy in the piece playing their
own part it really resonates, if you're reading PA consider just putting in
their responses to your questions.

The only nit on this is this bit: _" The only way to meet their demands would
have been to mass-produce huge volumes of speakers featuring no
customizations. And the only way to make that economically feasible would have
been to sacrifice our high standards of quality across the board. Needless to
say, we're not going to do that."_

I find I can't help but react when someone presents a problem as unsolvable
(it triggers my 'hey solve this!' button). And so when they state that this is
"impossible" my first question is, "How have you tried to solve it?", "What do
you consider as constraints? How do you verify those constraints?"

I agree completely with the idea that being craftsmanship to bespoke products
is an excellent goal, and if we can come up with ways to do that effectively
we can enable a manufacturing renaissance in places like the US. As a result I
see calling this problem 'unsolvable' as a challenge (it may be unsolvable but
if it truly is, then it may mean that bringing back this sort of work to the
US will never be economically feasible and I am not ready to accept that yet)

In terms of worthwhile startup projects to pursue, I consider this one of the
big ones. Creating the tools and infrastructure around craftspeople to enable
them to economically apply their craft at scale.

~~~
petra
If you think down this path, that craftmanship needs a very fast route to
market, and it's going to be a very big industry - with the capitalistic
logic, you end up with solutions like drone transport, automated machines that
create custom things fast, and robots/ai to test products.

And you probably also end up with manufacturing clusters doing most of the
work - and not in small towns spread around, but maybe still in the US, maybe.
But designers could stay local and not necessarily near factories.

But not sure that does fit your ideal.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I don't know about the speed. I do know that craftsmanship needs a big market
(because the number of people who are willing to pay the extra cost are a
subset of the whole market). I'm more interested in understanding three
things;

1) A market maker that can create the visibility / confidence that allows a
high touch bespoke market to exist (sort of eBay or Amazon or Alibaba for
craft people. I thought this might be Tindie at one point but that doesn't
seem to be their focus at this stage.)

2) An infrastructure/raw materials market for the craft people. I've seen this
with people who do this sort of custom work that finding suppliers is a huge
issue and qualifying them and working with them.

3) Tooling and engineering services, where each craftsperson requires a
specific set of tools which are by definition low volume but also high
tolerance precision kit. My Dad's engraving setup for example was put together
with "the" engraving vice, and "the" compressor, and "the" engraving tool and
bits. The company that makes all of the tooling is facilitated by an engravers
guild which has a large number of members which provides an economical place
for the tool manufacturer to serve, but is it possible to create a business
that can make bespoke tools at a price that allows the person purchasing them
to recover the costs in a reasonable amount of time?

Fundamentally, I am asking whether it is possible to build a "factory" that is
not so specialized that it could supply the needs of a variety of users in
different activities. Could we build such a facility in a 'small town' and be
able to staff it? Or put another way, what is the smallest unit of economic
self sufficiency given a global shipping market.

I'm having a hard time expressing this clearly but consider the following
analogy/question. Let's say you have a town, SmallVille, that has a functional
economy because there is a car parts factory that employs 1/3 of the working
aged people. Their salaries go, in part, to shopping for groceries, haircuts,
meals out, movies, etc, which employs a second third of the working aged
people, and those businesses and the local governance employs the remaining
third. Its a nice small town, everyone has a job, and life is good.

Now historically, we've seen that car parts factory close because car parts
could be made cheaper elsewhere and the entire economy of the town collapses
as you get 1/3 of the population out of work and so competeing with the
remaining 2/3rds for their jobs, and without that money coming in the number
of services businesses that are needed goes down so there are actually fewer
of the remaining jobs available, which further crushes the life out of the
town.

Basically without that parts plant feeding money into the town in exchange for
car parts the town fails. So can we replace that car parts factory with a
factory that can reasonably serve a much wider variety of needs? Can we create
a nexus of production which is dynamically assignable to what ever is needed?

My thesis is that if you can crack that nut, and create such a facility, then
you can create a 'fractal' economy, one which is geographically distributed
and yet nimble in the face of changing economic output needs. Can a car
company publish a 'spec' to any of these universal factories and say "I need
600,000 door knobs like this." and get various amounts from 1k to perhaps 100K
from a number of factories with good quality control that would depend only on
scheduling factory time. And yes, I know this hasn't been accomplished before
(hence the 'it may be impossible') and yes I've dealt with trying to get two
manufacturers building the same part such that you couldn't tell which factory
made the part when you were assembling systems (in that case it was front
panels for NetApp filers but I'm sure there are similar stories from anyone
who has built product) it is really really hard and maybe not possible. The
reward though would be tremendous, a 'factory on demand' of arbitrary size
would be to goods production what AWS was to information technology company
production.

~~~
petra
>> a 'factory on demand' of arbitrary size

I can imagine a versatile manufacturing technology that has 0 setup
costs(maybe 3d printing), and in the digital world it should be possible to
create the same things from different people.

But even with those technologies, centralization/clustering has some
advantage: buying in bulk, cheaper labor, closeness to distribution, access to
talent - and especially access to better technology.

But what are the advantages of the SmallVille entrepreneur ? why should he
invest in that business ? and how could he survive long term ?

~~~
ChuckMcM
I think for it to work we have to assume that Smallville's factory can dump
output onto an efficient delivery system and pick up raw materials (perhaps
subassemblies) from that same system. Whether it is rail, or dirigibles, or
automated trucks.

As for "Why Smallville's factory?", if I understand your question you are
asking why anyone would contract with the Smallville plant for their parts
over say Central City's factory? My assumption is that if all capacity is
nearly equivalent (like machines are nearly equivalent in AWS) that factory
choices would be based on available capacity and perhaps some risk avoidance
(not have all your factories in the midwest in tornado season for example).

------
ronnier
> But it was also born as a reaction against the cheap, mass-produced audio
> products that litter the marketplace today.

We are entering a world where the cheapest mass-produced items are just about
as good as the high end versions. Products are plateauing in many ways which
means the cheap versions catch up. Say on a scale of 1-10, where 1 is the
worst product ever, and 10 is the best you could ever imagine. Over the last
decades we were jumping from 1, to 2, to 3... etc. Now we are at the end of
the spectrum in many ways. So instead of jumping entire digits, products
increment by .003 for example, and demanding higher prices. To the normal
consumer, that fraction of an incremental advancement isn't worth the price.

What Princeton Audio is feeling is the sting of competition as they catch them
in quality.

> We steadfastly refuse to be purveyors of cheap, plastic, mass-produced,
> craptastic speakers made on an assembly line in China that contribute
> nothing of value to the lives of our customers or the town we call home.

That "cheap, plastic, mass-produced, craptastic" Chinese made stuff, if you go
back 100 years, has given most of us a life of unimaginable luxury.

~~~
colmvp
Yeah I find it annoying when high end producers complain about cheap
alternatives.

I'd be willing to bet the average person probably couldn't tell the difference
in audio quality between a pair of sub $50 Logitech speakers and these
speakers which cost $335.00 each. Or at least, it wouldn't be worth the extra
$620 for most people.

I'm not suggesting there isn't a difference (I've bought higher end headphones
and speakers myself), but rather, when the difference is marginal for the
average person, most people are content with a cheaper alternative that
fulfills the need. We see the same with furniture and clothing.

As a designer, I can certainly appreciate the craft, care, and detail that
goes into creating objects. But I also appreciate companies that produce well-
designed, fully functional objects that almost everyone can afford. Like, when
I was recently shopping for a desk, I was floored to find companies selling
desks that were 10 to 20 times more expensive than my old IKEA desk that had
zero scratches after a decade of use.

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
Doesn't this apply to literally everything? Cheap programmers v/s expensive
programmers, cheap photographers v/s expensive photographers, etc.

When it's their own field, people suddenly become very attached to the nuances
and about the additional value they can provide which the cheap counterpart
does not.

------
Johnny555
_Our Site:1 speakers are lovingly handcrafted. We make them one at a time, to
our customer 's desired spec, using their preferred tonewoods, choice of
hardware, as well as other unique customizations._

This doesn't sound like a good match for selling on Amazon -- Amazon seems
more suited for products where you can ramp up production easily to meet
demand. And I probably wouldn't buy a $450 handcrafted wood bluetooth speaker
on Amazon, assuming that it's some cheap mass produced mess where the wood
will delaminate in a year.

------
fanpuns
Wait, you were selling custom items on Amazon and were shocked when they
wanted delivery immediately? There are legitimate complaints to make against a
company like Amazon, but you not understanding the nature of your chosen
distribution channel is not one of them.

------
pkulak
So that was 8 paragraphs about how amazing you are before getting to the
issues with Amazon. And the issue was basically that Amazon isn't Etsy or
Kickstarter.

------
Demiurge
Enough has been said about the fact that an online retailer is not a good fit
for a custom made-to-order shop, these are the opposite in so many ways.

I wanted to share my opinion that Studio monitors like Yamaha HS80 is
practically the best sound quality I've been able to attain, with the price
much less than custom 'tonewood' and 'hand crafted' speakers. By having the
best possible range and accuracy on the output, after sound proofing the
environment as wanted, I can apply any EQ and filtering I want for pleasure or
mixing, and if desired I could also record/recreate impulse response of other
speakers. Good monitors are less than 1k, and I'm seeing people spend
thousands on cargo cult nonsense. Anyway, I'm glad I didn't become one of
those people, give monitors a try if you want _good_ sound.

I even got some ~$300 monitors for my parents TV, and they say that it sounds
better any other setups they've tried. In fact, they have now started
listening to music through TV a lot.

------
bitwize
Amazon, a platform optimized to deliver mass-produced goods quickly and
cheaply, is not up to the needs of a company that ships custom artisanal
speakers handcrafted using centuries-old speaker-making techniques from a
Piedmontese village. Color me surprised. Maybe try Etsy?

------
code4tee
Amazon is the Wal-Mart of the Internet (Wal-Mart wants to be the Wal-Mart of
the Internet but it hasn't been going so well). It's not the place to be
selling custom made stuff with a 6 week lead time, nor would Wal-Mart.

Nice products but this is simply a mismatch of product and venue. Spare the
drama.

------
jrs235
Would the following model work for this company and selling on Amazon?: Sell
gift cards for speakers on Amazon. Fulfillment of customized speakers is
handled directly by the manufacturer/seller. Returns and issues with the
speakers are handled directly by the manufacturer/seller.

------
macspoofing
I don't fault either side here. Amazon in principle is doing the right thing -
pressuring their suppliers to lower prices and improve shipment times. In this
case they went too far and this company got fed up and left.

~~~
prodikl
yeah, seems pretty fair. if the supplier doesn't think it's worth it and
thinks they'll do better without amazon, that's their prerogative

------
ziikutv
> I'll repeat that: Amazon.com, a reseller, told us that we were not allowed
> to raise the price of our own product for any reason. It was not open for
> discussion. In fact, the one and only time that anyone at Princeton Audio
> ever spoke in person to anyone from Amazon.com was the day we ended our
> relationship with them over the phone. Prior to that, our Amazon buyer had
> refused to ever reply to any of our questions or requests for support. Like
> I said, nice folks, huh?

Sounds like Amazon needs to change their practices on dealing with
manufacturer and let go of some people.

------
ianai
I wouldn't expect amazon to be a good choice for a custom audio place.

------
icc97
There seems to be a lot of negativity about this. They Site-1 product they
make looks beautiful and is made in the US. I really applaud them for doing
this and I wish more companies would. Making beautiful long lasting products.

If you've got a beautiful casing to the speakers you can upgrade internal
components and that looks like one of the things they offer.

If nothing else then hopefully this post will prevent other's with custom
products that don't suit Amazon from going down that route.

~~~
jasonwatkinspdx
The negativity is born of knowing something about speaker design. Their
product is _massively_ overpriced for what it is. "Tonewoods" are the literaly
_opposite_ of what you want in a material for speaker cabinets. For as much
time as they spend bashing on cheap speakers from china, if you did a side by
side comparison of their product vs other options at the same price point,
you'll quickly discover the limitations of a crappy 3" full range and a dirt
cheap IC amp from TI.

~~~
icc97
I assume you're talking about products in the same price range that were made
in China?

You're trading quality of components for quality of workmanship.

~~~
jasonwatkinspdx
> I assume you're talking about products in the same price range that were
> made in China?

Doesn't have to be China, any reasonably competent product will utterly
embarrass PA's speakers. There's no avoiding physics, and a 3" full range
cannot be more than it is, even if you charge $300+ for it.

If you like small single driver speakers check out Mark Audio. They're an
example of the sort of driver PA should be using if they actually gave a crap
about sound quality.

> You're trading quality of components for quality of workmanship

There is no meaningful workmanship involved. My grandfather was a luthier.
I've designed and built speakers. This is a massively overpriced product being
marketed via rhetoric that is directly opposed to everything we know from
actual, formal, research.

------
jaboutboul
Seems like the company made a mis-aligned decision to go with Amazon for
distribution when it is not the right fit for the product.

~~~
tmalsburg2
Basically what the currently top-ranked comment says.

------
thomed
If Amazon had let you control their retail pricing wouldn't that be price
fixing? You can set a recommended price, but once you've accepted the
wholesale price, you live with it. If the retailer decides to dump your
product at a loss, that's their choice no?

~~~
pebers
Princeton aren't complaining about Amazon dumping their product, they're
complaining that Amazon wouldn't accept them trying to raise the price they
sell to Amazon for - hence them terminating the relationship. There's no
attempt at price fixing on either side, just a mismatch of business models.

~~~
aidenn0
Ever since the housing crash, most retailers are not accepting price raises.

------
wnevets
This hammer is making a terrible screwdriver. Goodbye hammer and good
riddance.

------
anilshanbhag
I can't seem to find their product on Amazon. Curious to see who on Amazon
today would buy a <$50 bluetooth speaker for $300+ !

------
swayvil
Amazon sounds like Walmart.

------
simplehuman
Aren't these guys better off with shopify or something?

------
emperorcezar
Here's hoping that the anti-trust laws will bring Amazon in line one day.
Maybe.

