
Ask HN: How true is it that most founders are taking drugs like Modafanil? - JajaMan
I keep seeing references online taht a lot of people in Silicon Valley are taking prescription medications such as modafanil, adderal, etc.  Is this actually common?  Anyone here take those things and do you need them to survive?
======
eecsninja
I don't know of anyone in tech who takes these things, except for myself. I
also don't know anyone who microdoses LSD, although I doubt those people would
tell anyone. If I wanted LSD, I don't know anyone I could ask. I get my
modafinil online.

This could also be a part of the media's unfortunate tendency to conflate
"tech founder" with "software engineer", and "San Francisco" with "Silicon
Valley" \-- I wouldn't be surprised that you'll see more smart drug use among
people in the former than the latter.

~~~
bfuller
anyone with a grateful dead logo on a piece of clothing can get you lsd

------
xzel
I describe modafinil as one of the best cups of coffees you'll ever have, but
it doesn't leave much more of an effect than that; imo it is mostly mental.
Things can become very clear in your head and you will often be very awake for
a long period if you take 100+ mg. I've had friends bring me back wakalert,
modafinil, modvigil, from India and I've ordered them online. I've taken them
off and on for about three years. At first I tried a quarter of of a pill,
about 50 mg of modafinil, every couple of days. I started to crash very hard
about 6 hours and stopped. I eventually figured out I could get a similar
effect with about 20 or 10 mg and not crash. I currently take about 10 mg
every other day just to stimulate my brain. My advice to anyone interested
with this is start small and go slowly. Like all drugs it isn't for everyone
and it isn't cool. Be safe. :)

~~~
sshine
I've tried modafinil once for an exam. It helped with concentration, but not
focus, if that makes any sense; i.e. I procrastinated as much, but was super
effective about it. I've tried mild amphetamines (Ritalin) as a freelancer,
and I ended up practicing my handstand half of the time. There really is no
drug that replaces emptying your mind of worries (seeing a shrink for the big
things, and putting aside the small things), knowing what you want to do, and
doing it.

~~~
meko
Strattera (atomoxetine) actually helps with impulsiveness (and anxiety) but
it's not a substance that can be just taken when you need it, you need to
titrate up, and for some people it causes unbearable side effects. My
experience with it is very minimal to non-existent side effects, but a very
noticeable increase in executive function (doing what I know I need to do) as
well as a decrease in anxious tendencies. My advice if you go that route is to
start with a small dose and take it with protein.

------
sillysaurus3
Yeah, I'll break ranks and admit that yes, I do, and yes, it's necessary.

This is partly due to compensate for a medical condition.

Part of the reason it's dangerous, however, is because no one goes in prepared
what to expect. The doctors' "do you have any questions?" line is a joke. And
they usually don't take adderall anyway, so they can't tell you what to
expect.

I think Elon takes/took adderall as well. Or at least I heard someone say that
in a pretty convincing context, once. (So it must be true, right?)

The biggest thing to watch out for is the annoyance it imposes on your life.
Get ready to spend every month going to the doctor, every single month, to get
your script. Faxing/mailing adderall scripts isn't a thing, because controlled
substance.

The second thing to watch out for is that it's easy to ruin your sleep
schedule. But I don't know how true this is, because my medical condition is
related to sleep issues in the first place.

That all begs the question: Is it worth it?

I remember sleeping through class. If I had been on it from age 12, I would
probably have attained high marks.

The worst aspect is that you feel an urge to conceal it, because otherwise you
feel classified into the same category as these guys:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQVb6Cd-w8s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQVb6Cd-w8s)

The other reason to conceal it is that people start to make fun of you or be
dismissive of you.

It's a tough decision, and there's no clear right answer. There are pros and
cons.For some people the cons outweigh the pros. One of my friends said that
he felt like he was having a heart attack any time he took even a small
amount. Another said he didn't want to take it because "he liked being able to
think."

Both are true in certain contexts. If you need to plow through mundane work,
there is no better way. But it comes at a price.

------
austenallred
I consider myself relatively well connected, and chat regularly with hundreds
of different founders, both inside and out of YC.

I’ve never met anyone that takes those.

I have certainly met many founders that could be prescribed them.

~~~
xor1
Most people will never admit it to someone they aren't extremely close with,
especially if it pertains to work/business. I certainly wouldn't.

~~~
casefields
I work in tv and we have a reputation for liberal drug use but I didn't really
see it that much for it a few years. Now that I've moved up and know people
the transpo guys are like a fucking candy store catering to any needs.

------
mstump
I wouldn't say it's super common. Of the 20-30 founders that I know well I'm
the only one I'm aware of that has a nuvigil prescription. I take it because
I'm a single parent of young kids and do a lot of international business; my
sleep schedule is pretty screwed. I'll use it to combat a sleeping med in the
AM and attempt to get back on a normal schedule.

Adderall is pretty common, but they usually take it for ADD or depression.
When I see Adderall get "abused" it's usually people using it before going out
drinking and not necessarily for work purposes.

~~~
ozzmotik
i will say that for the more enterprising individual, a lack of prescription
is nowhere near the barricade one might be inclined to think of it as. and
being a heavy user of mind altering substances, while I tend to be more
expressive and open than other people, it's still hard to admit these things
to other people because it typecasts you to a specific type of individual in
their head and it just isn't always the most tactical decision that could be
made.

------
atomical
Modafinil has weak affinity for the dopamine transporter. Don't take advice
from Dave Asprey, Tim Ferriss, or other pseudoscience practitioners. See a
doctor if you have problems at work.

~~~
andrenth
This should be the top comment.

------
finnthehuman
You'll never find real numbers, and anyone pretending to know is putting too
much weight on their own impression. Most people on medication don't mention
it, especially when there is a stigma (like with mental issues).

The only times I ever learn about someone on prescription "smart" drugs or
antidepressants is when we're close and I confide in them first, or they're
the type of person who shares their adderall with people who want to take it
recreationally.

------
21
There is a documentary on Netflix called "Take your pills" about Aderall (and
it's cousin Ritalin). According to it a lot of people under 25 take it, they
feature a student, a software developer, a financial analyst.

After watching it my understanding of Aderall is that it makes you capable of
intense focus (a sort of anti-procrastinator). It doesn't make you smarter or
capable of solving stuff that you couldn't before. They end with saying that
it destroys lives and that it's dangerous, but they never quite delivered on
that, one guy said that it destroyed his life but he never went into detail
and he didn't look like you typical image of a crack-addict (ie: felt to me
more of like a thing they did to prevent them being accused of promoting
drugs).

~~~
lefnire
I was prescribed Aderall for ADHD growing up; 14-25yo. Towards the end doctors
were loath to continue my prescription, until finally a doctor refused and I
couldn't get it since. Their story has always been: it's an amphetamine, and
comes with all those risks and health concerns. Particularly around heart
health.

When I took it, it felt like that movie "Limitless". Superpower concentration.
I took their word on the health bit though, no free lunch, so I stayed away. I
developed A-fib (Atrial Fibrillation) at age 30, which is very rare at that
young. Could be any number of things, most notably genetics (though I'd be my
family's first); but doctors to whom I mention Aderall all have this "ahhhhh"
reaction. "Could be something else, but if I were a betting man..."

Frankly, I've always figured the way Aderall abusers abuse - here and there,
for finals or work deadlines - couldn't be that dangerous, unless you get into
the habit. I (and many others) was prescribed 1x/d for ~10 years. Seems to
have caught up to me, but that's some relative heavy usage. I certainly don't
condone, just brain-dumping experience.

------
throwawayaddy
(Posting on throwaway for obvious reasons).

I was on Adderall for mild ADHD for 10 months in 2016. Software Engineers in
my late 20s. I found that I was not finishing any of my side projects. Was
working (and still do) for a FAANG. Consulted a real doc i.e Psychiatrist in
San Francisco and he diagnosed me with very mild ADHD Attention deficit
hyperactivity disorder)

Apparently this is quite common in adults these days, esp. in high intensity
brain-work related professions like Software Engineering, Finance / Wall
Street and such.

My prescribed dosage was 5 mg / day of Adderall, the lowest possible dose. I
was very concerned about long term side-effects and the doc assured me that it
was perefectly safe. He said that it's not the same as crystal meth like the
media would have you believe. In my last outing , I mentioned the "Take my
Pills" netflix documentary and his take was that the documentary featured
extremes cases of very high dosages (the 3 people featuered were on atleast 50
mg / day, = 10x my dosage) and also that 2 of the 3 didn't have any ADHD or
ADD symtoms - the football player and the girls in school.

Now for the effects, I can say it's incredible. The first day I felt lazor
like focus. I walked into work, and finished a javascript library that I'd
been stuck on for days, in like 4 hours. I even helped a super-star Russian
coder fix a nagging complex multi-threaded bug. I didn't (and still don't
feel) "high" from it. What I feel is extremely sharp focus, like I notice very
small things out of order and correct them, in codebase and outside in my
daily life. In the first month or so, I also got lot of "life-things" that I'd
be procrastinating on done, like I did my TRUST, Living Will etc.

~~~
throwawayaddy
(Continued. HN is limiting my posts for whatever algo reason)

My side-project procrastination was the main reason I decided to see a
Psychiatrist. Before Adderall, I had about 8 different side-projects in
various states of progress, with a couple hosted and launched, but I was doing
nothing to market and grow them. Now, a couple of years later, I have
successfully grown the 2 that were launched and were languishing, launched 3
more, killed 3 that were going nowhere. I am now very satisfied mentally with
my situation, do not procrastinate, and am making about 1000$ per month across
all the side-projects. These projects were more for learning and keeping up to
date, so money is not a concern for me, completion is (/ was)

Word of caution: I did as my doc about micro-dosing LSD. He gave me a very
stern warning. According to him, LSD, even in micro-doses, "fries" the your
serotonin production network in the brains and destroys neurons permanently.
He strongly advised me to not try it even once.

And for those looking for Adderall or LSD, I would advice you to consult a
Psychiatrist, if you believe you have ADHD. For people that don't have ADHD,
Adderall, Ritalin etc don't work, and they end up getting addicted on high
doses and land on documentaries like "Take my Pill".

LSD is only available on the "dark web" as far as I know, so you'll need to
use TOR and Bitcoin. It's also shady and you have to purchase a "Tester Kit"
(who knows if that tester kit is also legit?!). Don't do it.

~~~
throwawayaddy
(Continued again...)

I'm still on 5 mg of Adderall and have not noticed any bad side-effects, with
the exception that I wake up a couple of times at night, and as long as I
don't open my eyes when I'm aware that I just woke up, I promptly go back to
sleep. I take 3 to 5 days "off" once every other week, like my Doc advised me
to, in order to prevent my tolerance from increasing, and needing more mgs /
day.

I do have a couple of friends, in their early 20s, who were diagnosed with
ADHD recently, and are on higher doses. They both work for startups in SF, 1
at BitFlyer and another at some SaaS startup in the Workshop Cafe building.
They both say that they need it to "get in the zone" and get the gruntwork in
startup world done.

I am not aware of widespread use of stimulants like Modafinil or Adderall or
Ritalin in the startup world here in SF. But like others have stated, it's
somewhat of a tabboo to speak about usage, because, in 1 sense, it "exposes"
you and your collegues will never look at you the same way as they'll think
you are "cheating" using a "performance enhancer" drug, which in some ways,
are what Modafinil , Adderall, Ritalin and other stimulants are.

------
51927ec0c65f572
I'm in SV proper and I take adderall and have taken modafinil before. People
generally don't talk about it. I've met more people who said they used to use
it than say that they currently use it.

> is this actually common?

My experience has been that it's trivial to get a prescription of adderall in
America. Doctors have tried to give it to me even when I've said that I don't
want it. So (I assume) anyone with health insurance that wants it can get it.

> do you need them to survive?

Yes and no. If I were to immediately stop, I think it would take me 6 months
to 4 years to redevelop coping strategies to manage work and my own life
properly. I grew up taking it, thus it's my primary coping mechanism.
Certainly possible, but certainly unpleasant.

I think it's probably the safest investment I can make. The cost of going to
doctors and filling prescriptions is mostly in time, but the payback is huge.
I think my life would have taken a very different path without adderall.

To clarify, when I say adderall I mean Adderall XR. My experience with other,
similar drugs has been much worse.

Here's how various similar drugs affected me:

\- Adderall instant release reliably caused psychosis for me (paranoia and
hallucination primarily) and the come up and come down were too sharp. It
worked, but benefits < costs

\- Ritalin works for me, but it's closer to being unmedicated than it is to
being medicated.

\- Dexadrin works the best but is both easy and tempting to abuse. I think the
benefits < costs.

\- Vyvanse feels much "dirtier" for lack of a better word. It causes too much
PNS stimulation. At lower doses, it's a bit less effective than adderall, at
higher doses it just makes me feel bad.

\- Modafinil is very different from any of the above. It does what it says it
will, but cheating sleep is a losing game (and that's all that it's really
good for), with or without drugs. Thus, benefits < costs.

\- Caffeine doesn't help with focus much and has a lot of nasty effects.

For various personal reasons (the stigma and laws of foreign countries), I do
want to taper off/stop, but it's been extremely difficult. Even with adderall,
the modern world is just so crushingly attention-grabbing that I find it hard
not to feel mentally exhausted and overwhelmed constantly. Honestly, I think
getting rid of my smart phone and not keeping my computer connected to the
Internet all day would be better for my health than stopping adderall.

------
kenning
I took modafinil for a while because a crypto SV nerd told me it was hip. We
both ordered some and tried it. The stimulant effects basically stopped
affecting me after a week, and i had the bizarre side effect of crying very
regularly. My father, who has adhd, also tried modafinil and also found
himself crying a lot at his work.

I gave my extra pills to another friend who was interested; both my friends
stopped using them after a while, saying they made them feel different but not
more focused or anything.

It was a mildly interesting waste of time and money for all four of us.

------
tptacek
In 20 years in the industry, most spent in startups, much spent consulting
with a pretty broad spectrum of _other_ startups, I have never known anyone
I've worked with to take modafanil.

That's just one data point. But: I don't think it's at all common.

~~~
sampleofone
I took modafanil while working for AWS and I never felt the need to bring it
up - what makes you think everyone you interact with is listing all their
medication to you?

~~~
badcede
All he said was that he hadn't known them to. If they were and didn't tell
him, that explains that.

------
caguru
I’m a serial startup junkie and I am usually one of the first 20 employees.

About half of the startups I have worked at the founders were abusing
Adderall. One company even offered it to developers. It provides an edge but
the fallout is usually terrible. I won’t tolerate it anymore. It’s just too
crazy.

------
jacques_chester
The media focus on what is extraordinary. "Granny walks home safely for
2,472th time" is not going to get a front page splash in any newspaper save
for _The Onion_.

Similarly, "many men and women do not take a particular drug" is not going to
move copies of _Wired_.

What brings eyeballs is novelty. Danger. Jealousy. Sex. Power.

What _doesn 't_ bring eyeballs are repetitious, unremarkable, properly
calibrated statements of reality. Our brain already tunes that signal out.

By way of disclaimer, I take methylphenidate as a treatment for ADHD-PI.

------
hprotagonist
founders, i can't say. Graduate students and postdocs: very common indeed.

------
mrthrowaway000
I'm not going to use my real account. I do use Modafinil occasionally as a
perk me up and it is easy to acquire. I use about 50mg. I do use it to
complement my life and I find that it does make me a better person.

My days are hectic between full-time work, sideline hustle, having a child,
housework, exercise and spending time with my partner. I do it to help me stay
focused and bang out the necessary tasks that I need to keep my life in order.
I try to get 7-8 hours of sleep and I do maintain a healthy diet. The only
side effect that I have noticed is that if I use it too often I do feel my
immune system get weaker.

Overall, I've had a positive experience with using Modafinil as a supplement.

------
josephpmay
I think there's an important point to make (although I don't have empirical
evidence of this), that ADHD is way more prevalent in startup founders than
the general population. This is logical when you consider that those with ADHD
are less likely to be fulfilled by a desk job and are more likely to be risk
taking.

In general I've found that unmedicated ADHD founders seem more common than
medicated, but I wouldn't count on that as generalizable or fact.

In terms of people without ADHD using Modafanil or amphetamines to get an
edge, I'm sure that happens a lot, but it's less common than Wall Street or
high-powered law firms.

Funnily enough, I just started taking Modafanil this week.

------
segmondy
I don't know of anyone in the industry that uses. But I've seen some people
that have such laser like focus it makes me wonder. I can understand working
on exciting stuff, but even the most mundane boring crap they are focused like
machines. I envy them. I frankly don't care if people are using or not. You
have to decide how to handle yourself. I organize myself with a bunch of
checklists/todo lists and such.

------
rco8786
I saw lots of it when I was younger and cooler. I imagine it’s still pretty
prevalent. I never did it and it’s worked out fine.

------
Trundle
Not a founder but I do want to share some information to act as context for
the other responses.

I use modafinil quite regularly.

It is very easy to get.

No one that i don't do drugs with recreationally knows that I use it. If it
came up in a discussion with people I know professionally and I needed to
contribute an opinion, it'd be slightly negative and dismissive of the idea.

~~~
strken
> No one that i don't do drugs with recreationally knows that I use it.

This is the key, I think. If you're not close enough with your co-workers that
they'd offer you weed after the office Christmas party/do lines off the table
in front of you/tell you about the time they bought ketamine in Slovenia[0],
why would you know about their non-recreational drug use?

[0] hypothetical examples - all my office Christmas parties have been staid
and family-friendly - but examples based to some degree on reality

------
brandoncordell
I take modafinil daily to counteract the exhaustion and lethargy of
obstructive sleep apnea. I only take 50mg (so I split the pill in quarters)
but some days take another 50mg after lunch time.

It's greatly affected my work in a positive way and will continue doing so
until I get used to my CPAP and actually get a real night's sleep.

------
dragonwriter
> Anyone here take those things and do you need them to survive?

I don't, though I've known people who do (not in SV, FWIW); mostly those are
taken for quality of life reasons, not immediate survival needs (though
obviously quality of life does have potential survival impacts.)

------
pixelHD
Unrelated, but I couldn't help but think about this tweet I saw recently
[https://twitter.com/ChloeCondon/status/988942270891085827](https://twitter.com/ChloeCondon/status/988942270891085827)

------
wasd
I know a small handful of founders on a personal level and none of them take
modafinil or adderall.

~~~
dboreham
Curious how you know that. Blood tests?

------
Panjam
Like coffee? Three cups a day mate.

------
vimcat
Is there any human who can read binary code 01011010010110101101 without take
psychedelic??

steve jobs, bill gates, elon mask, john lennon ,thom yorke , genious everybody
took lsd, everybodys junkie.

lsd make human robotize that push our technolody towards future

~~~
majewsky
> Is there any human who can read binary code 01011010010110101101 without
> take psychedelic??

Nobody can "read binary code", because you do not specify what you encode.

It's like asking what e.g. a circle symbol means, without supplying any
context whatsoever.

------
newnewpdro
You're not going to get much meaningful data, this kind of thing is often kept
hidden.

------
Simulacra
I tried modafinil and it wasn’t very helpful.

------
all_blue_chucks
ITT: literally everyone saying "I'm the only one who does this"

~~~
tptacek
On a thread with 40+ comments I see 4 people saying they take modafanil, so we
have differing definitions of either the word "literally" or the word
"everyone".

~~~
all_blue_chucks
... and one guy with no sense of humor.

------
pixl97
Here's a better question: How many people at founder level actually have to
take drug tests?

People at the bottom piss in cups all the time. I have a sneaking suspicion
the top rarely does.

~~~
flippy2
In SV I have yet to run into a tech company that drug tests.

It once came up in a higher up meeting at a company I worked at and someone
snickered and said “never gonna happen. I would lose a bunch of my top
performers.”

(I am sure there are companies that test but it is the exception here.)

------
allthenews
In my experience, computer scientists tend toward self optimization. To this
end, stimulant use in my circles is quite common.

I wouldn't say any of us need them, but they are useful tools, both for work
and occasional recreation.

