
HR leaked my salary. Now my team knows I make 3x they do - nishankkhanna
http://www.brightjourney.com/q/someone-hr-leaked-salary-lunch-now-team-knows-make-3x
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famousactress
First of all, sure the HR person is obviously out of line. Second of all, I
hope I've never worked with any team of people who'd be disturbed with my
salary. To me that's a sign that either I'm not worth my pay or they're being
taken advantage of (or both). Throughout my career I've gladly told anyone who
asked what I make, and ironically the only people who've ever asked are junior
folks like the ones the author says are upset (because they want to understand
how things go). Salary obfuscation serves injustice. I really think it's that
simple.

Further... dunno what industry, dunno what market.. but in my experience in
west coast software 3x a junior employee would be a bit fishy at a company
that size. Sounds like someplace I would not want to work :)

~~~
iloverobots
If they make 50k and he makes 150k and they are all paid under market but have
stock in the early stage company, this could make sense. Especially if the guy
has tons of experience. (And obviously, this could be true at 60k/180k or
70k/210k, just depending.)

~~~
famousactress
Maybe, but I doubt it. First off we know exactly four things for sure:

1\. It's a 30 person shop

2\. Author makes 3x the juniors

3\. The juniors don't think author is worth 3x them

4\. the HR person was a bad hire

Dollars to donuts this is a very poorly run company (each of 2-4 essentially
prove so alone, so they definitely point that way in combination).

Let's assume developers (cause I'm not qualified to talk anything else). Let's
assume the 50/150 since 150 I'd estimate is about market for a senior dev at
least in CA at that size shop. Juniors are more like 70k (or more? I may be a
bit out of touch), so 50k is 40% short.

The chances that the junior folks are paid well short of market with great
equity and the senior hire is market with little equity? Yeaaaah.

Honestly in my experience it's more likely that everyone at this company is
fucked for equity, and everyone that didn't know better was fucked for salary
also.

~~~
sheetjs
The second and fourth are still unknown:

> Author makes 3x the juniors

That assumes the author accurately knows the salaries and equity positions of
the employees, which is unclear and raises more questions if true.

> the HR person was a bad hire

This is a clever way to get someone to leave the company: create in-company
tension in a way that drives the person to leave.

~~~
famousactress
> This is a clever way to get someone to leave the company: create in-company
> tension in a way that drives the person to leave.

Excuse my french, but companies that need "clever ways to get people to
leave", are fucked. _SUPER fucked._

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ChuckMcM
I can see this being a problem if you think you are "pulling one over" on the
folks making less, but if you've got some reasoning to back it up, you just
own up to it. If it makes you "feel bad" then take a deep look inside yourself
and ask why that is.

If your boss doesn't think you add 3X the value of one of your team then
you've got a bigger problem still. One of the biggest challenges in tech is
that people who stay at the same company for a long time can get 'ratcheted'
up to a salary that is over their actual value. Correcting that usually
involves a conversation about your future elsewhere.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Your comment strikes me as a bit odd ... Are you suggesting that one should be
wary about making too much money and if you find yourself at a company for
awhile and making a lot of money you should discuss with your employer about
reducing your salary or moving to a future elsewhere so you can make less
money? ...

Software is a strange, if not bizarre, place for people interested in money if
that is the case.

~~~
jowiar
At some point, after a series of raises for doing excellent work, your
employer may reevaluate the situation and come to the conclusion that, while
you're excellent, you might not be worth what you're getting paid. (This can
get particularly fun when there's a high-performing employee who isn't very
high up the totem pole, making more money than people with fancy titles). You
aren't often the one who's going to initiate the next conversation.

------
judk
Either everyone knows you are worth it and respects you, or you are an
overpaid fraud, or your teammates are underpaid. Either way, sunshine is the
best disinfectant.

~~~
abruzzi
I agree with this more or less. I make about twice what my least employee
makes, and about 1.5 times what my highest paid employee makes. Since I work
for the government though, everyone knows everyone else's salary is, and if
they don't it's just an IPRA request away (inspection of public records act.)
In fact the local paper publishes the names and salaries of all the employees
of all the local government entities every year online, and the top 20 (of
which I'm one) in the print edition.

However, there are always some people (usually on the lower end of the pay
scale, but not always) for whom pay, and specifically comparing pay, is an
unremitting source of conflict. So, in a non-governmental setting, without
easy access to other's pay information, the leak of salary information can
move that conflict from general abstract anger, and give it a specific focus,
which can exacerbate problems.

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georgemcbay
I'd love to know the actual numbers and the job involved.

Thinking in terms of developer salaries (just a hypothetical tangent here,
there's nothing saying this lady [I assume lady based on the name?] is a
developer), 3x is a pretty huge spread between one employee and the rest of
them without some sort of jump into a clearly more senior level position, even
when the others are all recent grads.

Looking at some specific 3x multipliers:

$100k->$33k

$150k->$50k

$225k->$75k

$300k->$100k

If it _were_ a developer job (and again, there's no specific indication it is)
she's either making out like a bandit (consider that she said she works for a
30 person startup, not Google or Facebook) or her peers are really getting
shafted relative to market rates.

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SEJeff
If it was HR, they should be fired and find a new career. If it was a
recruiter they should sever ties with that recruiter.

~~~
hudibras
I work in HR and it's unimaginable that the person wouldn't be fired. "Do not
disclose anybody's salary" is as close to a Prime Directive as it gets in the
HR world.

Edit: Thought it over for a bit and now I'm suspicious of the original story.
"HR told somebody my salary over lunch and I happen to make three times as
much as everybody else" seems really fishy...

~~~
drdeadringer
> "Do not disclose anybody's salary" is as close to a Prime Directive as it
> gets in the HR world.

This has been my understanding as a non-HR person, which contributes toward my
personal discomfort over "let's all know everyone's salary by name and number
as a matter of course" lines of thinking. Not to say I don't understand where
these lines of thinking come from.

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smegel
Some people say all salaries should be open by default. I am not sure if this
would be a good idea, but it would a pretty strong incentive against cronyism.

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leowidrich
This is really interesting, I can see how this must cause a lot of negativity
at work. It's one of the reasons we've made salaries completely transparent
within Buffer to avoid situations like this:
[http://open.bufferapp.com/introducing-open-salaries-at-
buffe...](http://open.bufferapp.com/introducing-open-salaries-at-buffer-
including-our-transparent-formula-and-all-individual-salaries/)

Do you guys think open salaries can help with this?

~~~
RussianCow
Lots of CEOs' salaries are public, but that doesn't stop people from resenting
them for making so damn much. It's really hard for people to accept that
someone is 3X or 5X or 100X more valuable than they are--either way, it's not
a positive thought. I think more important than exposing salary numbers is
being transparent about _why_ those numbers are the way they are. Having the
company tell me that Bill makes twice as much as me, by itself, might actually
make things worse (especially if I don't think Bill deserves it), but knowing
that he makes twice as much because he is highly specialized in a specific
thing that the company really needs is useful because it gives me a hint as to
how I can reach that level.

~~~
xerophtye
But aren't most salary discrepancies because you are a better negotiator than
someone? Or what if the reason is that you are getting offers from other
companies and so your company is giving you a higher salary to keep you
around? The company wouldn't like to tell THAT is why they are paying you
more, because then everyone would be "pay us more or we leave"

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cbsmith
Unless it is in a contract or some such, I am not sure that you have a right
to privacy about your salary information.

Honestly though, this is the kind of thing that is probably best to clear the
air with. If I was fresh out of school, I'd actually look at this rather
positively, as there is room for improvement, and of course now I have
leverage to ask for increases in compensation.

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chatman
How did this guy know he makes 3x, without knowing peers' salaries?

~~~
spatten
If you're senior or a team-lead or involved in hiring, I don't see why you
wouldn't (I don't think it says that he's their peer in the post).

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adrr
I had similar incident at a former employer. HR sent out department list with
all the remaining employees after a layoff. We noticed that the listing wasn't
alphabetically sorted and few of us knew what each other made and quickly
figured it out was sorted by compensation. One of the engineers replied all
and pointed out it wasn't professional to send out a list sorted by
compensation.

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jerrickhoang
The guy uses his real name on brightjourney (also his entire profile is up)
and now this post is on the front page of HN just makes things worse.

~~~
flylib
seems like he made himself pretty untraceable because google and other people
search sites can't find almost anything on him

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devnonymous
Wow, 19 comments and not one of them questioning how the person knows their
salary is 3 times their peers ? Isn't it obvious that anything that can be
said about the HR's actions can also be said about the manner in which the
person themselves got the information to make the comparison ? Why is this
even a legal issue ? overreaction, much ?

~~~
rooted
He could have interviewed the junior employees. Perhaps even gave them their
offers

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flylib
For people questioning why the other people are pissed, it could be because
the company lied to them during the process and said they could only afford to
pay a certain amount when being hired now this comes out and they feel they
got swindled and he just happens to be in the crosshairs

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dinkumthinkum
I don't have any idea why this person would want to get into the legality of
this. If you didn't sign up for an open door policy, it is certainly a breach
of privacy in an ethical sense but ... You're the one making more money, is
this the worst thing imaginable? OK, you colleagues at a _startup_ may be
unhappy with this fact but does this really matter that much in reality? On
some level, it just seems like you should just take the money not care so
much. Sure, if it bothers you, you should bring it up and perhaps the HR
person should be disciplined. If it bothers you that much then probably you
should move on but I don't think anyone would benefit by bringing discussion
of legality here.

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liamgooding
Unless someone is being paid over or under what they're worth, this isn't a
problem.

If they are being paid under, then now is the right time for them to leave to
an employer who rewards employees fairly.

If you're been paid over, then it's time you got your butt in gear and worked
your ass off to prove to everyone your worth! :D

Personally I believe in 100% transparency across the board from day 1 (at
Trak.io and all my previous companies). That way, situations like this can't
arise, and new people coming in are unlikely to ask for misaligned salaries
they know wouldn't stand up under peer review.

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epynonymous
happened to me, too, some folks from hr and finance would disclose to their
friends in the office over lunch and then word just spread like wildfire.
however, i work abroad (shanghai), and sure it was awkward for me personally
as there was lots of jealousy and spite amongst so called peers, but the main
onus was on upper management to retain people, so you'd see someone clearly
not my equal get promoted twice in a year. for the record, i worked in the
states for a long time so my pay scale was obviously going to be different
from local pay.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Beijing here.

Local companies are really bad about this, but international companies are
more equitable between local and foreign employees, given that the environment
would otherwise be quite hostile.

~~~
epynonymous
that happened at a multi-national company. nevermind hr/finance talking about
it, but people also ask very directly about how much you make.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I was never asked by any colleague at my company in all my 6+ years, but this
is Beijing and not Shanghai :)

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dmourati
I would collect evidence of the recruiter having disclosed my salary and bring
that directly to the CEO. Legality aside, it is highly unprofessional to
discuss private information in that way.

~~~
drdeadringer
> it is highly unprofessional to discuss private information in that way

I too feel this way.

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codezero
I worked somewhere where I found out after the fact that I made twice as much
as my peers. I also was given harder tasks and higher expectations. So you
make 3x... do the work to show how you earned it. If they resent it, keep
working.

At the end of the day, experience is one thing, but you need to show the value
on a day to day basis, not just how you earned it in retrospect.

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TheMagicHorsey
Salary transparency is a good value. I think managers that are uncomfortable
with other people knowing their wages, are uncomfortable because the people
that know they do nothing, now know they are overpaid as well.

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clintboxe
The thing I've come to learn about salaries over the years is that, and I
quote (myself): "If that person can get that, good for them. It's probably not
their fault I didn't get it."

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thrill
So? Show some spine about why you earn that salary.

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harrylove
Give it a month. If nothing happens, you have a Nash equilibrium and no
further action is necessary.

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macspoofing
Probably should get a new HR manager.

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throwwit
I think this is why bonuses/options were invented ... lol

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