
Ex-Prime Minister Baroness Thatcher dies, aged 87 - Fletch137
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155
======
ErrantX
I know Thatcher was a polarising individual; for her politics and actions
during the mining strikes etc.

However, she rose to the top of an _extremely_ male dominated field through
conviction and sheer force of personality. And I think that deserves respect
in itself.

Given the current issues surrounding gender equality in many fields, her
example should serve as inspiration.

(Fact I have just learned; she was born just down the road from me! I'm quite
surprised Grantham doesn't make a bigger deal of her roots there)

~~~
_chrismccreadie
I cannot disagree more. The fact she made it to the top of a male dominated
fields cannot and should not in any way be tied to a notion of respect.

Take a trip to North Lanarkshire and you can still see the impact that the
closing of Ravenscraig has had on the area. No-one says the name Thatcher in
Scotland, it has to be whispered. After having a successful independence
referendum scrapped by a labour government she went back on the promise she
made to the Scottish people about increased devolution for Scotland, instead
turning her into a testing ground for some of the most unpopular Tory policies
of all time.

This is in no way a personal attack on a woman who is now no longer with us.
She was someone's mother and sister and my heart goes out to her family at
what most people would agree is a terrible time for a family. However the
words "respect" and "inspiration" when describing Margaret Thatcher is not a
position that will be shared by many people in Scotland.

~~~
TheAnimus
But like anything political there is the other side of the coin.

For many who simply wanted to continue their work as usual found themselves
involved with the consequences of a dispute of miners. Ultimately people like
to choose a side to blame for catastrophes such as the 3 day working week (due
to power shortages because of the coal strike, electricity had to be
rationed). How much hard did that do to other industries. My grandfather at
the time an electrical engineer lost his job due rather directly to the 3 day
week.

For people like them Thatcher was a good thing, ultimately it was not her
fault that the unions did not want to compromise on closing mines. The
reaction of unions towards a shift from being a publicly subsidised industry I
don't think can be described in anyway as sustainable or even 'long term OK'.

I find it someone disingenuous of certain areas to blame the government for
the result, when the unions often negotiated with such a simple all or nothing
mentality. Ultimately blaming her after going all-in isn't right.

~~~
EliRivers
Very true. An entire country held hostage by a tiny proportion of workers
deciding to go on strike. I can definitely see the argument that any private
body with that kind of power has to have that power removed.

~~~
lostlogin
The end result went far beyond removing that power. It devastated their towns
and destroyed families.

~~~
omegaham
This happens a lot in any industry that loses its relevance.

I grew up in Massachusetts. Cities like Lowell and Worcester are very
depressed now because they lost what made them big - manufacturing. Should we
have subsidized that industry despite it being overpriced and underperforming
compared to its competitors? What about the horse and buggy industry when
automobiles came around? The whaling industry once petroleum refineries
started being built?

Those coal mines were outdated and inefficient. Unfortunately, the government
subsidized them for far too long, which created dependence on them as well as
the assurance that the jobs would always be there.

Sadly, there is displacement whenever there is a change. But it's far worse to
cling to the status quo when it's blatantly impractical. We should be learning
the opposite lesson from the hardship created by these mine closings - it's
far better to bite the bullet and take the immediate effects than prop up an
outdated system and finally get rid of it once it becomes too much to bear.

~~~
lostlogin
The change could have been done more smoothly. Or to put it another way, how
could it have been worse? I don't pretend to have a perfect solution, but
going to some of the areas hit by this is really depressing. The towns may
never have been flash to start with but visiting mines and talking to people
there is not that different to talking to someone who is describing to you a
war they were in.

~~~
omegaham
Head out to some of the Rust Belt states - New York. Pennsylvania, Ohio, and
Indiana. You'll find towns that are just that - empty and gutted. There are
cities that lost more than 80% of their manufacturing jobs in less than 10
years.

It was just the way of the future - the Southeast had lower labor costs, lower
cost of land, and advantageous shipping arrangements. The cities just couldn't
keep up, and they fell by the wayside.

And yes, it's pretty crappy to go to these cities and tell the people who are
struggling there that their businesses deserved to go bankrupt or leave, but
there's no other way to do it. The alternative is to subsidize them, and that
ends up discouraging progress and also creating a culture of dependence on the
government. After all, why invent new stuff if the government will increase
the subsidy to keep up with your new manufacturing process?

Letting the free market purge badly competing industry is good for the country
and also good for everyone in the long term.

~~~
lostlogin
I wouldn't call what Thatcher brought in 'free market' per se, although I dont
think this is what you are saying. Many of the formerly nationalised companies
that are now supposedly private depend heavily on state subsidies. Her
implementation of change swapped one inefficiency for another while setting
vast swaths of the country at loggerheads. Other countries have managed to
implement painful change without the friction experienced in the UK. It's a
sad period of history.

------
lifeisstillgood
I am subtly torn here.

I am one of "Thatcher's children" having grown up in the late seventies and
eighties. I clearly remember watching her enter Downing St and my mother
telling me that things were going to get better now a woman was in charge.

She oversaw wrenching shifts in Britain's social and economic structures, was
hated, respected, but rarely loved and kicked out without ceremony.

But my abiding memories are of _something_ getting done. Rarely were there
somethings that everyone agreed upon, rarely was it done well, but things were
done. Thatcher had an agenda when she came to power. Her "success" over the
Falklands enabled her to push that agenda - one of massive economic change. It
seemed obvious and overdue to her and her main advisors that the semi-
Keynesian establishment needed shaking up. And she and her band of, at the
time, outsiders, did just that. Something happened. Something inevitable.

In the deadlocked worlds of politics I see in the UK and US, this is a trait
that might be worth admiring.

But now in my own middle age, well, if I were PM now, my personal focus would
be on the changes needed to deal with the Internet as the Central nervous
system of humankind - issues of privacy, of government accessibility, of
security of networks and national assets, of education policy. Those are my
"Bleedin obvious" policy shifts. Things I would drive home ruthlessly, because
not to do so would be like a time traveller knowing the all the days winning
horses and still not betting.

So, to sum up, doing _something_ in politics takes a special kind of
ruthlessness. Sometimes we need to have people who will sacrifice others in
order to make the inevitable happen now - there are many mining towns feeling
the sacrifice to this day.

But we need now not to debate the issues of 1980, but to look at the next
inevitable changes - and do our best to get ahead of them. Much of the
Eurozone troubles are down to the countries missing a Thatcher, and having
politicians who simply waited till the inevitable happened. Can anyone spot a
politician who gets the needs of 2040?

~~~
pekk
What is the use of doing something if it is the wrong thing? It would be
better to do nothing than to do the wrong thing.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
Wrong is a loaded term. In politics I seem to be finding that there is the
wrong goal, the wrong execution and the wrong consequences.

And all of this derives from ones initial starting point.

In 1979, the UK was recovering from a terrible decade, we had gone bankrupt
(loans from IMF in 74, suffered years of Union-led disruption (rubbish piled
up in streets for _months_ ). New York was in a similar position as you can
see from films of the period, with less overt union action.

So successive Tory (UK republicans) governments had had their entire,
democratically elected, mandates wrecked by unelected union leaders. You could
see this as labour rectifiying biased institutions in favour of the working
class, or you could see it as an attack on democracy. Neither would be
"wrong". Thatcher saw it as latter and set out to destroy the power of the
Unions. This also chimed with her personal views on self-reliance.

The goal she set out to achieve (to break unions "holding back business") she
was mostly successful in. It was not a "wrong" goal.

The execution was at times brutal - the 1984 miners strike divided our nation
and is still being felt. One can argue it was wrong to do it that way. But
three previous tory governments had tried other ways and failed.

As for consequences, well, UK industry contracted terribly, the Big Bang lit a
fuse under the London financial sector and ... Greece and Spain and Portugal
and France and Italy did not break their unions power in the 80s or 90s. Now
both the unions power and their economies are broken.

At certain scales, and at certain time scales, wrong is really hard - I think
you need to start measuring wrong in body counts, not ideology.

miners strike: [http://www.defendtherighttoprotest.org/wp-
content/uploads/20...](http://www.defendtherighttoprotest.org/wp-
content/uploads/2012/11/miners-strike-orgreave-241x300.jpg)

PS - terrified how my 16 year old self would feel reading this - probably
march against the idea of becoming old and right wing.

------
steamboiler
I'll probably get down voted for this but I'll say it nonetheless.

Roger Ebert and now Margaret Thatcher. I respect them both but IMHO HN is
hardly the place to mourn them. Just my 2c.

(FWIW I can't flag this article; I would have if I could)

~~~
Heliosmaster
I agree.. from the guidelines:

> If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

~~~
philwelch
Why isn't this the top comment?

------
richardjordan
There are plenty of others who grew up in Thatcher's Britain I understand the
negative sentiment of many Britons towards her.

My main beef is the squandering of Britain's oil. We had a one time bounty of
oil in the UK and to deliver temporary tax cuts at the high end of the tax
bracket her government sold off as much oil as possible as fast as possible at
low low rates (<$10 per barrel) - a policy also aimed at financially attacking
the Soviet Union. However as the UK slipped from the fourth largest exporter
in the world to a net importer of oil, oil which is ten times as expensive,
the UK has serious problems. The tax cuts are long gone, and I'm pretty sure
nobody is paying for the UK's oil as a thank you for helping bankrupt the
USSR.

I guess the point is while the social effects of her policies are the main
focus of criticism for many, her economic prowess was based on a giveaway if a
one-time resource wil long term negative strategic consequences for the
country.

------
travem
I was impressed by Paddy Ashdown's comments on her -
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/what-
did...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/what-did-margaret-
thatcher-do-britain)

"I opposed almost everything she did (but found myself following many of them
when I tried to get the Bosnian economy going by lowering taxes and freeing up
the market). Though there will be many who saw her as the author of much
destruction that we still mourn, much that she pulled down needed to be pulled
down."

"She was better as destroyer of old tired institutions and lazy ways of
thinking than she was as the builder of new ones; better at defining divisions
than building cohesion. But probably that's what Britain needed then. Had we
on the left not grown so lazy about our addictions to the easy ways of state
corporatism, she would perhaps have been less successful at so cruelly
exposing their hollowness."

"If politics is the ability to have views, hold to them and drive them through
to success, she was undoubtedly the greatest prime minister of our age, and
maybe even the greatest politician."

------
hackerboos
I don't see the point of this being posted. This is likely to turn into a
shit-storm of left-right fighting.

~~~
Taylorious
Didn't you hear? HN is now a general discussion forum where super intelligent
technical people have wonderfully stimulating discussions about every topic in
the news, and do it in a respectful and mature way.

/end sarcasm

------
Leszek
I very curious what the funeral will be like -- I imagine there will have to
be a hell of a lot of security to protect the body and attendees.

~~~
protomyth
Per her request, she won't be lying in state, so that should cut down on some
of the problems.

------
denzil_correa
Margaret Thatcher was a research chemist, a barrister and former "Secretary of
State for Education and Science". Thatcher may also may have helped invent
"soft-serve ice cream" [0].

[0]
[http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/04/margar...](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/04/margaret-
thatcher-helped-invent-soft-serve-ice-cream/274767/)

------
andrelaszlo
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism#Criticism> All respect to the
brilliant person though.

~~~
hhariri
I guess history has taught us that poverty is irrelevant of who wins the
elections.

------
yread
This clip somehow made it to my FB feed

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ6TgaPJcR0>

"Margaret Thatcher does the Dead Parrot Sketch"

------
rikacomet
RIP, the Great Iron Lady. You were a big inspiration to me. There would never
be anyone like you and late Indra Gandhi. The two Maiden-de-People of mid-80s.

~~~
sks
I dont know a lot about Thatcher but when Indira Gandhi's election was
overturned by the courts on ground of election fraud she proceeded to suspend
elections and civil liberties. I hope that you are correct and we would never
see anyone like Indira Gandhi, no nation deserves to be ruled by a tyrant like
her.

~~~
zahabat
Right. Most people in the west don't know about The Emergency [1] following
the fraud that got her elected. Then her political and social interference
with the Sikh community (part of the most vocal opposition to the Emergency
[2]), which lead to Operation Bluestar [3] and subsequently her assassination
[4].

These events form the worst part of Indian politics since independence. Her
rise to power was not due to her personality or skill. She was simply the
daughter of Nehru, the first prime minister of India and a close aide of MK
Gandhi.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)>

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)#Sikh_oppo...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_\(India\)#Sikh_opposition)

[3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star>

[4] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Indira_Gandhi>

------
justincormack
It is worth reading the policies that brought her into power again eg
<http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/112551>

UK politics was dominated by the unions in a way that is unthinkable now and
tax policy has changed a lot. It feels more honest than today's politics
although what was proposed and what was delivered were not entirely in line.

The papers on that site are fascinating... I was only 10 when she came to
power but she was a huge figure of that time.

------
rdl
I'm still confused why even relatively normal tech/libertarian-lite Scottish
people seem to hate her so much (e.g. cstross), to the point of dancing on her
grave.

~~~
MattDL
She was one of those people who manage to inspire emotion in others.

A lot of bad, but she garnered (and still does somewhat) a huge amount of
respect.

For someone who has so much public hatred around her, you have to remember she
still managed to win elections while all this was far more raw and happening
around her.

~~~
hp50g
Her election success is only because the voting system here is biased and most
of the population aren't really evolved past primate level. The media control
the outcome of an election.

Her popularity is a myth perpetrated by the media.

There is no respect from anyone who knows the facts.

~~~
EliRivers
"But that guys knows the facts and HE respects her."

"Ah, but he doesn't TRULY know the facts."

Long story short, please take your no-true-Scotsman and shove it.

------
malkia
Rust In Peace Iron Lady!

------
D_hemming
Her condition is described as 'Satisfactory'.

------
kentwistle
May God rest her soul, her memory will never be forgotten.

~~~
ofacup
she (god) sure will if she's not a miner... otherwise, she'll be in for a
rough time. either way, the sooner she's forgotten, the better for all
mankind. the rich already have it better, it's the poor that need help.

i'm sorry you feel that way. losing your soul must be traumatic

~~~
dmix
> it's the poor that need help

[http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_reveals_new_insights_o...](http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_reveals_new_insights_on_poverty.html)

This is happening. Slowly. Like all change.

~~~
oliverhunt
You do realise those things dont just happen. They happen through progressive
social and economic policy.

~~~
dmix
Government policy?

Or industry and human innovation?

[http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=2589](http://www.smbc-
comics.com/?db=comics&id=2589)

------
lazyant
Responsible for 323 lives:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano>

~~~
chollida1
Not sure what your point is. Any leader who has a country in combat will loose
soldiers.

From the page you linked to:

> After consultation at Cabinet level, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher agreed
> that Commander Chris Wreford-Brown should attack the Belgrano.[7]

So she listened to her top military advisers and agreed to their plan. Not
sure there's anything wrong with that.

~~~
lostlogin
Listen to military advisors, sure. But be careful. Iraq and Afghanistan are
recent, but in 100% of wars someone's advisors are wrong.

------
crystal520
RIP.One of the greatest human in Mid-80s.

------
lostlogin
Email from my father at 7.17 this morning: >>I just looked at the Grauniad,
Independent, TImes, Telegraph - all have front pages dominated by her. I then
went to the Scotsman to see what the view was… there was no mention at all….<<
I see she is there now.

------
andrewcooke
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-BZIWSI5UQ>

------
camus
Well i did not like her for sure , but RIP. We all die , no matter if we are
king or slaves , poor or rich , famous or anonymous.

~~~
Uchikoma
Soon rich people will no longer die. This will make for some interesting
social changes.

~~~
hp50g
Until we start killing them (it will happen).

Equilibrium is inevitable.

------
dregin
Fascist.

~~~
dmix
She was a bit nationalist towards the latter half of her career but hardly a
fascist.

Fascist gets thrown around too liberally.

But Thatcher was far from authoritarian. She was actually fighting against
large government authoritarianism when she gained power.

Although she had moments where she used excessive state force against citizens
such as:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners%27_strike_(1984%E2%80...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners%27_strike_\(1984%E2%80%931985\))

~~~
handelaar
"Far from authoritarian" ?

She put _hundreds of thousands_ of UK citizens under secret service
surveillance for the crime of disagreeing with her government's decisions.

I was one of them. Aged _sixteen_ I walked out of our house on the way to
school every morning and passed the fake BT engineer changing the tape in the
green switch box outside the house next door, reattaching something to our
house phone with crocodile clips.

Mail took weeks to arrive because it was intercepted and read en route. I was
stopped for questioning at every border point I passed in Europe until I was
in my late 20s.

All this because not being a Thatcherite in Britain in the 1980s made us
"enemies of the state".

~~~
herdrick
Really? I'd take as given that this is happening now, as it's cheap. But back
then? Can you link to some evidence of this?

~~~
DanBC
ECHELON was revealed by Duncan Campbell in 1988.

([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Campbell_(journalist)#E...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Campbell_\(journalist\)#ECHELON))

He also wrote a book about the amount of police surveillance going on in the
UK.

I hated Thatcher. I wouldn't put the surveillance down to just her. There were
plenty of other people involved in making lists and monitoring people. (The
building industry would use blacklists of agitators. This was so severe it was
one of the drivers for the data protection act, and it was this list that
caused the act to be extended to cover non-computerised information too.)

Certainly, it would be odd for people to blame Thatcher for the number of CCTV
in the UK now. The UK has about 20% of all the world's CCTV! (I haven't
checked this, it was a comment on a Radio 4 news programme so maybe it's
nonsense).

