
Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine? - fraqed
https://sciencenorway.no/diseases-food-and-diet/can-an-extreme-low-carb-diet-be-used-as-medicine/1708291
======
StacyC
I am 58, on a (mostly) strict ketogenic diet since 2013. It has worked wonders
for me and I expect to eat this way the rest of my life. I eat a lot of meat
and eggs as I have found that combination (1) is something I enjoy very much,
and (2) makes me feel the best.

I didn’t have much weight to lose but I went from 175 to 160 (high school
weight) and under 15% body fat. My energy level is consistently very good.

Diet is a subjective thing, of course, but at a minimum getting rid of sugars
and processed food might be a good starting point for anyone.

Anecdote: my brother-in-law reversed his T2 diabetes and lost quite a bit of
weight doing keto. His doctor had advised meds to “manage” the disease.

~~~
abtom
Weight loss comes from having a calorie deficit, not from keto. You can gain
weight on keto if you eat more calories. You can achieve the same weight loss
by just eating fewer total calories, without cutting carbs as well.

~~~
jonfw
This is well understood by now. The issue is that most people aren't actually
going to track their calories- they eat when they're hungry. If you adjust
your diet- you can satiate your appetite on a lower number of calories.

The idea is that meats, vegetables, and fats help you meet your nutritional
goals on a fewer amount of calories when compared to carbs- because carbs are
empty calories.

~~~
abtom
Agreed that satiation is a major aspect. How satiating a food is, is not
simply about carbs/proteins/fats. Most carb rich foods people eat today are
high in sugar and low in fiber. That causes people to overeat. You can also
overeat with high fat foods because fat is much more energy dense.

You can just as easy have a bad keto diet as you can have a bad high carb
diet. Replacing processed carbs with processed meat will not do any good. It's
a group 1 carcinogen and will also lead to high cholesterol level causing
heart disease.

My point is that carbs aren't the enemy. Neither is fat. Eating
unprocessed/low processed food should be the goal.

~~~
amanaplanacanal
The evidence that high cholesterol “causes” heart disease isn’t very good.
There appears to be an association, but that’s really all we can say.

~~~
jonfw
in my experience- the more I learn about nutrition, the more I realize that
we're just talking about everybody's best guess. Hard facts are scarce in this
space.

------
sradman
Before the advent of anti-seizure drugs, the ketogenic diet [1] was an
effective and widespread intervention used to treat epilepsy. The downside is
the discipline required to keep intake of carbohydrates below 15 grams per
day, especially in children.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet)

~~~
shlant
additional downsides include kidney stones[1,2,3,4], bone mineral loss[5] and
a long list of other complications (including death):

[https://www.thepaleomom.com/adverse-reactions-to-
ketogenic-d...](https://www.thepaleomom.com/adverse-reactions-to-ketogenic-
diets-caution-advised/)

1\.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11095028/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11095028/)

2\.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10893623/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10893623/)

3\.
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/088307380730192...](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0883073807301926)

4\.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852806/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852806/)

5\.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19064531/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19064531/)

~~~
PudgePacket
Firstly those studies are all in children..

Study 1 doesn't actually show increases in kidney stones.

Study 2 has N of 4...

Study 3 looks reasonable, though they did note "use of oral potassium citrate
significantly decreased the prevalence of stones" which is good news!

Study 4 has N of 25 & no info about what they actually ate other than
macronutrient ratio.

~~~
shlant
> Firstly those studies are all in children

Your point? the OP ended his sentence with "especially in children" so I
thought I'd share that which was relevant to children. If you are looking for
information on adults, here are some possible clues:

[https://www.nature.com/articles/pr19971830](https://www.nature.com/articles/pr19971830)

It makes sense considering the increase in uric acid, but might only be a
problem in children and those susceptible to kidney stones (although when it
presents in children, that is some pretty important information in terms of
holistic, long-term diet considerations). Still definitely worth mentioning
and I'm sure we will get more information as more studies are done on adults
(most are on children due to it being used as an epilepsy treatment)

------
roenxi
I'm going to go with a corollary to Murphy's law. Since anything that can go
wrong will, every activity or substance is going to be the problem for
somebody.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that dieticians are consistently against
is sugar in large doses.

~~~
jahnu
They are also for the hard to market, varied diet but largely fruit and
vegetables, moderate exercise, little or no alcohol, and regular checkups.

I'm failing to some degree on these, I admit.

~~~
YinglingLight
They are also for 7-8 bite sized 250 calorie meals every other waking hour. A
feat that can only be feasibly achieved via living off ready-made readily-
purchasable health snacks™.

There is no money in fasting, intermittent or otherwise.

~~~
nsl73
> They are also for 7-8 bite sized 250 calorie meals every other waking hour.

No, I wouldn’t say this is modern consistent dietary advice. So many people
that make it there business to talk about diet are hyping intermittent fasting
now.

------
qrush
I've been on keto for probably a full year of my life at this point, broken up
every few months. I usually can't maintain it for longer than 2-3 months at a
time because it really is a strict diet - but it's always been worth it once I
get into the "mode".

I absolutely love it because it turns the daily roller coaster of hunger pains
for me caused by carbs into a steadier, more predictable climb. I basically
feel no hunger at all during the day, and it's fantastic.

The big downside, obviously: little to no carbs. As a home baker I miss making
bread when on keto, but I get that energy out by making different keto treats
(usually almond/coconut flour based) instead.

~~~
blaser-waffle
Same here. Love me some homemade bread, gotten really good at ciabatta.

It makes it hard to do anything more than 2-3 months on keto. I found that it
works as advertised -- skin gets better, weight drops, generally more energy
-- but it's very hard to get away from carbs. Like, you need to be DILIGENT,
and even if you stay on top of it it ends up limiting your life in many ways.
I could live without a lot of carbs but giving up on pizza was hard...

------
mikece
It's been used to treat diabetes and seizure victims for a while so, yes.
Personally I lost over 70 pounds (from 295 to 225 -- I'm 6'5") at one point
using keto. My main concern is whether one who is on the diet for weight loss
will become overly sensitive to carbs if/when they start eating them again
causing the body to immediately store them away as far instead of burning them
(and if so, how long would it take to "return to status quo ante" with regard
to carbohydrate metabolism).

~~~
el_don_almighty
Yes, in my personal experience. However, I suspect my body is just desperate
to hold on to carbs and pack those bastards around my liver anyway, regardless
of previous Keto periods or not. When I stick to Keto, I feel better, think
better, poop better, I don't get headaches and I don't have acne. Is it magic?
I dunno. The chemistry seems to support it.

Years ago we called it Atkins (yes, I am older) and it worked great for me,
but chips and salsa are my kryptonite. Unfortunately, as I age, I must rely
more and more on my diet for control I am not but a humble nerd who now sits
behind a glowing screen toiling away as a PHB, but I can offer this: Keto
works for me and I would recommend it to anyone.

~~~
nkozyra
I think the Atkins diet was low carbohydrate but not low enough to induce
ketogenesis.

~~~
tmikaeld
Of course, eating high-carb meat like hot-dogs and chicken nuggets won't work.

I tested my urine during Atkins and I was either high or medium in Ketones. I
did eat a lot of meat high in fat and little to no carbs.

I was able to keep being in ketosis while still eating about 50g carbs/day
(Through meat products), while I was doing exercises daily.

~~~
ddorian43
Note for others tha urine isn't accurate. You need blood test.

~~~
tmikaeld
Time of the test matters a lot, I dismissed morning, because it was always too
high.

Tested during mid-day and late afternoon and made an average.

------
kesor
Yes. And it has been used to cure some things you wouldn't believe. Here is
the shortlist of the more serious illness that the PaleoMedicina group in
Hungary have shown to effectively treat using their low-carb PKD protocol

[https://justmeat.co/wiki/pkd/](https://justmeat.co/wiki/pkd/)

[https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/paleolithic_ketogenic_diet_...](https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/paleolithic_ketogenic_diet_PKD_in_chronic_diseases_clinical_and_research_data)

Here are testimonies of even more people healing their serious diseases on a
purely carnivore and zero-carb diet

[https://meatrx.com/category/success-
stories/](https://meatrx.com/category/success-stories/)

~~~
amINeolib
With URLs like that, it makes me wonder if they are telling the whole story.

I don't understand why people make science "pointed"? Do people get extra
credit for not being the status quo?

Heck all I want in Nutrition is some objective data. Someone be that
scientist.

~~~
nradov
Unfortunately almost no human nutrition studies meet evidence-based medicine
standards. And in fairness to the scientists, the constraints imposed by
funding and ethics make it impossible to do really meaningful research. All we
get are observational studies which show some correlation, often mixed up with
multiple uncontrolled confounding factors.

So if you want to try a different diet like extreme low carb or whatever then
go ahead. Maybe it will work for you, maybe it won't. In the worst case it
probably won't kill you.

~~~
shlant
> In the worst case it probably won't kill you

Unfortunately, that is also not necessarily true:

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19027591/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19027591/)

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15679508/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15679508/)

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15329077/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15329077/)

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11575609/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11575609/)

~~~
PudgePacket
>
> [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23273808/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23273808/)

> Conclusions: The KD is a safe and efficacious therapy for intractable
> childhood epilepsy in Chinese children. The influence of age on efficacy is
> worth further investigation.

?

~~~
shlant
edited. Thanks for catching that. I have a lot of different links in my notes
haha

------
Shivetya
One thing many overlook with low carb is that you can still enjoy your
favorites sauces and similar, you will be amazed how far a tablespoon of one
will go. This can apply to mixing in what otherwise are considered carb no nos
like bread crumbs. A little goes a long way and the carb impact can be
minimized if the base is large.

Plus there is so much variety in the produce department that fits the diet
that many overlook. Low carb/keto does not mean having to eat what is on their
list but looking on the lists for items you have never tried to see new
opportunities.

~~~
calpaterson
YMMV but my favourite sauces were not compatible with Keto. Brown sauce for
example - and no one is making a sugar free version of it AFAIK

------
givan
Fasting has excellent results for treating many illnesses including mental
ones.

There is a documentary that covers two clinics that offer fasting as a
treatment and scientific research in this area.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1b08X-GvRs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1b08X-GvRs)

------
iand
Can someone explain why ketosis is the secondary energy system in the body and
not the primary?

~~~
cies
Our bodies are primate bodies. Primates are frugavorian omnivores (get most
calories from fruit, and eat very little animal tissue (mostly insects)).
Fruit contain mostly carbs: short carbs a.k.a. sugars. We're optimized for
eating lots of sugar.

Primates have a hard time producing fat from carbs (a process called
lipogenesis), just a few calorie% per day. This, combined with the tiny bits
of fat in fruits/insects, we may store as fat tissue.

Here comes ketosis: when we cannot find adequate food supply (starve) we can
live off our fat storage, this is what ketosis is for
(biologically/evolutionary). It's our starvation mode.

Primates are not made to be in ketosis for long times. We're also not made to
eat high fat and/or high protein diets. We're made for a high fruit diet.

Is long term ketosis bad? I believe so, but we still need to do research on
this. Many people are trying it on themselves lately, so we will soon know.

Is short term keto dieting bad? Nope. And it may help you to burn that body
fat fast. I'd prefer to get into keto by mimicking starvation, a.k.a.
(intermittent) fasting, and not by eating lots of fat/protein.

Is eating lots of animal products bad for you? Yes. It's been shown again and
again in large studies that humans do better on predominantly whole plant
foods.

~~~
PudgePacket
> We're optimized for eating lots of sugar.

Not even sure how to respond to that one. American diabetes rates?

> Primates have a hard time producing fat from carbs

??? carbs -> glucose -> insulin -> increased lipogenesis. Carbs are _better_
than protein or fat at producing bodyfat.

> Is eating lots of animal products bad for you? Yes. It's been shown again
> and again in large studies that humans do better on predominantly whole
> plant foods.

In large, observational studies with innumerable co-founding factors,
including lumping regular meat (a steak) in with highly processed meat
(mcdonalds burger).

I agree with the whole food part, and plants can be good, but exclusion of
unprocessed meat is not proven to be any more healthy.

You also self describe as vegetarian in your profile, and ketogenic diets
often include meat.

~~~
andai
I was vegetarian for 10 years and tried a beef only diet for my immune
problems.

I was told that I would have trouble digesting meat again but to my surprise,
it was much easier than usual, and I felt great the whole day (also actually
felt full for like 6-8 hours after a meal).

Then gradually reintroducing foods one by one helped me pinpoint the culprits.

------
billysielu
I did it before for weight loss, it worked amazingly, but the weight came back
on just as easily. It would have to be a permanent lifestyle change, and I'm
not convinced that's safe.

~~~
mirsadm
What makes you think that it isn't safe? I guess the other question is what
makes you sure that another diet is safe?

~~~
nsl73
It’s a really extreme diet. I would be concerned with the fat intake, the
cholesterol intake, and limits on certain fruits and vegetables.

~~~
PudgePacket
Your body makes more cholesterol than you get from diet, it's more complicated
than just "cholesterol high = bad".

Also would encourage you to read up on recent literature about fats. The "low
fat = healthy" fad hasn't held up for some time.

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S073510972...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109720356874)

> The recommendation to limit dietary saturated fatty acid (SFA) intake has
> persisted despite mounting evidence to the contrary. Most recent meta-
> analyses of randomized trials and observational studies found no beneficial
> effects of reducing SFA intake on cardiovascular disease (CVD) and total
> mortality, and instead found protective effects against stroke.

------
elric
Well the ketogenic diet was designed specifically to treat intractable
epilepsy ... so yeah ...

------
bigtex
So my daughter had epilepsy soon after birth and was hospitalized for 20 days
@ 1 month old. By the time we left they had her on 4 different drugs, but the
seizures continued. At 4 months old she went to the local children's keto
clinic. The seizure frequency slowly tappered off until a month or so later
she was seizure free! That lasted for a few months until an ear infection
brought the sickness back and then revealed the true cause of the seizure, a
brain abnormality.

That was when my eyes were truly opened to how much diet can effect the body.

------
dlkmp
I have been on keto for three months now, for me it's mostly about the mental
clarity, free from the ups and downs you experience when eating a lunch high
in carbs.

------
playing_colours
There is The Autoimmune Protocol diet (AIP), a stricter version of Paleo, and
there is keto diet. They both seem to help with autoimmune deceases and
inflammations.

Did anyone try them, and can share their experience? Do they both have
comparable effects in a long term?

------
fizixer
No.

------
Frye
My dog Toby was recently diagnosed with stage 2 splenic hemangiosarcoma and
given 30-60 days. Opting against doxorubicin chemo we are working with the
Keto Pet Sanctuary to make a new diet and hopefully start HBOT soon.

------
Darmody
I love how we're starting to focus on our diets to prevent or cure a huge
amount of diseases. You don't need drugs, expensive treatments, nothing, only
a good diet. (read the comments below for an clarification for this statement)

I personally can't work on a very low carb diet. Now I'm eating carbs again
but NOT refined carbs. I make sure everything I eat is nutrient dense. Well,
not everything, I'm not a robot but I always try to eat stuff with a low
glycemic index.

And I eat everything in a span of 8 hours. The rest of the day I only drink
water.

Y recommend listening to Dr. Rhonda Patrick. She can explain all this way
better than me. She's been on the Joe Rogan podcast (she talks about this in
her first time there) and she also has a podcast and a lot of very interesting
videos.

~~~
Pelic4n
>You don't need drugs, expensive treatments, nothing, only a good diet.

Moms on facebook keep telling me this but my physician disagree! Do you have
an essential oil for this?

~~~
Darmody
I realized that that statement can be misinterpreted. I'm not talking about
not using drugs or going to a doctor when it's needed. I'm saying a good diet
can prevent a lot of bad stuff and sometimes even reverse things like
diabetes.

~~~
shlant
I agree with the responder that your original statement sounds a bit
hyperbolized, but I also am an advocate that diet can treat a LOT more
conditions than most people think

