
How to Be a Stoic (2016) - andrelaszlo
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/12/19/how-to-be-a-stoic
======
athenot
I think of this as a variant of Postel's law (for TCP/IP):

    
    
        Be conservative in what you do,
        Be liberal in what you accept from others.
    

Most major belief systems have the same concept of defining "winning at being
human" as putting up with more crap and simultaneously taking the effort to
overdeliver. As a society, this pulls us upward.

On a continuum, there are 3 states:

\- A negative state, where we take/expect more than we deliver. At best, we
require others to do us good before we ourselves do good, at worse we are
unconcerned about other's good. It's also, at an individual level, the path of
least resistance.

\- A neutral state, where we attempt to balance what we expect and what we
deliver. In that state is the Golden Rule (do to others what you want them to
do to you) and eye-for-an-eye (don't return more tort than the tort caused to
you). Very loosely, this is where justice lives.

\- A positive state, where we attempt to give more than what we expect. This
is the domain of mercy, stoicism and "turn the other cheek". It requires a
personal cost/sacrifice in order to expect less yet still deliver what is
good. This is also the domain of love.

~~~
slothtrop
I don't think stoicism belongs in what you've described as a positive state.
It's about our attitude towards the world and experiences as they unfold. I
don't think you can extrapolate giving more to the world from that. In fact
expectations are irrelevant in that framework.

~~~
darkerside
Don't conflate "positive" in this domain with any typical connotations of the
word. Stoicism is certainly "positive" in the sense of what one gives to the
world, in relationship to what one expects to receive, because a Stoic has no
expectations to receive anything from the world.

------
Topolomancer
As befits HN, I also want to pitch the _Meditations_ by Marcus Aurelius here.
Being written for himself, it has a very different tone (no athletic coach,
but rather a somewhat world-weary, if benevolent, uncle). Fundamentally, it
treats similar ideas, though.

I also stumbled over a very interesting quote from the article:

> In other words, think of every unreasonable asshole you > have to deal with
> as part of God’s attempt to “turn you > into Olympic-class material.” This
> is a very powerful > trick.

The _exact_ same trick is practiced in many (traditional) Christian faiths---
but I have the feeling that placing it in that context would alienate many
modern readers (and in the worst cases, it comes relatively close to the
prosperity gospel stuff).

~~~
cjf4
>The _exact_ same trick is practiced in many (traditional) Christian faiths

Unfortunately this is true, despite being complete heresy. One of the saddest
things for an American Christian is how a huge portion of the church has
diluted Christianity to an unbiblical set of self actualization themes.

~~~
Topolomancer
I agree with your view on American Christianity. But do you consider a milder
variant of the statement in the article, namely something along the lines of
'Challenges can help me grow (in faith, in character, etc.)' to be heretical
as well?

(just curious; no hidden agenda here)

~~~
zdragnar
The phrase "Challenges can help me grow" is specific to the individual; that
is, how you choose to accept them. The phrase "God's plan" implies that you
are claiming to understand it in terms of not only what has happened to you,
but what will happen to you in the future. It is one part prophesy, one part
imposing your own desires and will upon God.

I don't know that I would personally consider it "heretical" (especially since
I am an agnostic by way of Catholicism) but that would be my stab at
understanding the difference between the phrases.

------
MattyRad
I think being stoic is becoming increasingly valuable regarding today's
politics. Vindictiveness and toxicity is reflected regularly in people that
closely follow national politics, usually demonstrated by their desire to
relieve their frustrations by venting their negative emotions. Like the author
quotes, "it is not events that disturb people, it is their judgments
concerning them." Letting things which are so far removed from your control
affect your daily disposition seems exhausting and miserable.

~~~
TheOperator
One of then side effects of the rise of identity politics is an explosion in
victim complexes. It's just a bit of a race to the bottom effect where one
group will argue X thing doesn't mean they're victims because their group are
victims in Y way. There are just so many victims these days that victimhood
doesn't even serve actual victims. The supply of victims outstrips the demand.

Stoicism is so starkly opposed to victimhood and complaining that it comes as
a breath of fresh air.

------
jaabe
I think there is a lot of value in stoicism, but it never really worked for
me, because accepting things aren’t my thing.

Instead I prefer the Socratic approach to issues, where you actually try and
discover solutions together. I know stoics took a lot of lessons from
Socrates, and that you can’t be Socratic without a tad of stoicism, but I’ve
also found asking questions to be better (for me) than letting things slide.

Like with the cab-driver taking the long route. Sure you can let it slide, but
I’ve never had politely asking about it break my tranquility.

~~~
jsonne
I'm hardly an authority but I've been doing daily stoic journaling for about 9
months. Stoicism isn't about passivity, though I can see how people think
that, it's about 1. Accepting your circumstances 2. Understanding what you can
and can't control 3. not having your happiness be dependent on outcomes but
rather your actions. So in your cab example you could say something to the cab
driver. You could simply get out of the cab and get another. You could let the
cab driver take you the long way and pay more because it isn't worth the
hassle. Any would be an appropriate stoic response. The unstoic response would
be to sit and seethe or complain about it later. At it's core stoicism seems
to be just a system of empowered decision making. Or at least that's how I use
it.

~~~
slothtrop
Right on.

------
HenryBemis
One book that I had bought a few months back and started reading on Jan 1st is
this The Daily Stoic: "366 Meditations on Wisdom, Perseverance, and the Art of
Living" [1]

It contains 366 quotes, one for every day. I usually read it in the morning,
then I take a photo on my phone and I re-read it during lunch time. This way I
can process it again and make sure I (try to) 'fix' one thing at a time.

I have made this part of my "What the Most Successful People Do Before
Breakfast" and "The Miracle Morning" combined-routine.

[1]: [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Daily-Stoic-Meditations-
Perseveranc...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Daily-Stoic-Meditations-Perseverance-
translations/dp/1781257655/)

~~~
krzysztof
I also find this book really nicely written. Worth checking out if someone is
interested more.

Also Mark Aurelius Meditations are interesting read.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations)

------
phatle
A good book on Stoic is: [https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-
Stoic/dp/0195...](https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-
Stoic/dp/0195374614)

Very easy to read this book and growth mind. There are no abstraction here.
Very pragmatics. For those who want to know/understand Stoic. I'm highly
recommended.

~~~
martin-adams
As a newcomer to it, I found this book extremely helpful and instantly
impactful to my daily life. That said, I find that you need to keep up the
practice continually as its impact has a half life and fades over time.

~~~
jackhack
almost as if the world has a limitless supply of "challenges". As you level-
up, so do the challenges which force one to grow. Hopefully.

------
jes
I have found both Stoicism and secular Buddhism to be right up my alley.

I'm closing in on 60 years of age, and have had both major wins and major
losses in my life. Today, I am generally at peace with whatever happens and my
different moods; they come and go like the weather. I usually meditate for 15
- 30 minutes a day. The Buddhist concept of "no self" is something I'm
reflecting on as well.

~~~
HNLurker2
The closest thing I found to "no self" is the Radiohead song "how to disappear
completely".

------
bootsz
For those interested in learning more, I highly recommend Ryan Holiday's book
_The Obstacle is the Way_ which gives a great high-level modern take on
stoicism. The classics are also obviously great too.

------
ohaideredevs
Meditations gave me nothing that I didn't get from reading a few of Aurelius'
quotes. One of those books that you expect to be great and it disappoints.

The problem with stoicism is the same problem as the problems with Buddhism's
eight-fold path; avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest. If that's
your philosophy, what's the point of being alive?

Stoicism/Buddhism works well in situations for which it was designed by
Siddhartha - enduring your crappy slave existence. It makes sense to learn not
to feel when all you feel is disappointment and lack of control. A bit
defeatist, really. Enduring, while valuable, is not being proactive.

It's effective, but it's no way to live long term.

~~~
bg4
> avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest

Stoicism isn't about the avoidance of suffering. It's about accepting fate,
loving others despite their behavior, and not creating anguish for yourself,
in your own mind. It doesn't mean, however, that you don't attempt to put
things in order and fix your problems.

"Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate
brings you together, but do so with all your heart."

"Be tolerant with others and strict with yourself."

"So you were born to feel 'nice'? Instead of doing things and experiencing
them? Don't you see the plants, the birds, the ants and spiders and bees going
about their individual tasks, putting the world in order, as best they can?
And you're not willing to do your job as a human being? Why aren't you running
to do what your nature demands?"

~~~
ddebernardy
> Stoicism isn't about the avoidance of suffering. It's about accepting fate

That's actually a Roman-Christian reinterpretation of the Greek philosophy.

The Greek teaching in a nutshell is that what depends on you depends on you,
and what doesn't depend on you (such as others or nature) does not -- and
therefor shouldn't be a source of frustration.

(It says nowhere, as you note a few sentences later, that you should accept
the would-be source of the frustration; just that you shouldn't be frustrated
about it -- while working on improving the situation if you feel strongly
about it.)

------
sametmax
This is not at all "how to be a stoic". This is "what it is to be a stoic".

It's nice to say you have to avoid reacting to things outside of your control.
But how does one do that ?

Stoicism fails at explaining any practical way of embrassing the teaching.
It's strange since they were quite practical people, but you see that a often
in philosophy: lots of theory, very few advices for practice.

At least the buddhists suggest meditation as a tool to learn to act instead of
reacting, and see things more objectively.

~~~
briancleland
> It's nice to say you have to avoid reacting to things outside of your
> control. But how does one do that ?

The first step is to learn to distinguish between the things that are in your
control and those that outside of your control. The second step is to
consciously remind yourself that things outside your control are by their
nature indifferent - neither good nor bad - and to act accordingly.

Both of these things require constant practice to develop skill. One specific
exercise that can help is the "Premeditatio Malorum". Another is to keep a
journal of one's successes and failures and to review it daily.

There are other useful resources online with practical advice. One good
example is Donald Robertson's Stoic Therapy Toolkit:
[https://learn.donaldrobertson.name/p/stoic-therapy-
toolkit](https://learn.donaldrobertson.name/p/stoic-therapy-toolkit)

------
ericskiff
If you're interested in this topic, I highly recommend William Irvine's "A
guide to the good life: the ancient art of stoic joy"

[https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-
Stoic/dp/1522...](https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-
Stoic/dp/1522632735)

Its treatment of modern stoicism is uplifting, and I found that the overall
philosophy (and even just the practice of having a set of values and
philosophy) matched my personal beliefs well and gave me new tools to use.

Overall - Stoicism as it was taught by Epictetus is more about freeing
yourself from desire for things and the fear of losing them, and not about
giving up all worldly things (that's Asceticism)

I appreciate that the Stoic teachings allow for enjoyment of life and its
fruits when that enjoyment is bounded by the good of "community feeling" or
love for your common man. If the 80's "greed is good" movement had had a "but
try to lift up others and don't be a dick", it may have been a more
sustainable culture, and I hope that those of us disrupting things and
building new systems figure out how to create societal benefits as well as
wealth.

------
ourmandave
CliffsNotes: "Forget it Jake. It's Chinatown."

------
maxxxxx
I think with stoicism you have to be careful to actually be stoic and not just
pretend to yourself to be stoic. There are quite a few stories of meditation
practitioners and teachers who broke down after years of looking peaceful and
serene to the outside but they were just pretending to others and also to
themselves.

~~~
ozzyman700
Do you remember / have any references to these people? I am very interested in
criticisms of stoicism.

~~~
maxxxxx
From what I gather buddhism and stoicism share a lot of ways how to deal with
external input and managing your mental state. I know more about buddhism and
there have been quite a few articles about teachers who fell apart even after
decades of practice because they hadn't really internalized them and were
trying to "fake it till you make it".

------
scottlocklin
Somehow Aurelius never took with me as a longer man, but Stockdale's accounts
of the impact of stoicism on his life are pretty good.

[http://media.hoover.org/sites/default/files/documents/978-0-...](http://media.hoover.org/sites/default/files/documents/978-0-8179-3692-1_1.pdf)

[https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/stoicism1.pdf](https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/stoicism1.pdf)

[https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf](https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf)

------
sn41
Is there a more energetic way of looking at life than stoicism? Stoicism
seemed life-denying whenever I seemed to get knto it.

------
billfruit
I want to say that after reading Montaigne, I get the impression that he did
not consider stoicism a reasonable way of life, especially with respect to the
writings of Seneca. He saw the dangers when virtues are taken to extremes.
He(Montaigne) was more impressed by the ideas of temperance and moderation as
espoused by Plutarch.

------
perseusprime11
None of these philosophies can be applied when the stakes get really high and
personal.

~~~
bhaak
That separates the real philosophers from the wannabes. The real philosophers
can take it.

Like when Sokrates and Seneca had to end their lives. They didn't lament the
unjust verdicts but embraced it.

------
HNLurker2
So Epictetus was a theist?

Edit: what stops me from being a christian because both believed in god

------
ggm
_Don 't get angry with slaves_ could take on new relevance with an emerging
underclass. I think we can all learn something from this.

