
Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations - ColinWright
https://www.fpl.com/clean-energy/net-metering/guidelines.html
======
oconnore
The article is trying so hard it's hard to tell what the actual issue is.

It _is_ dangerous to backfeed the grid -- you may kill the line worker coming
to fix a blown transformer or downed line.

In some places a grid connection is considered necessary by the building code.
If so, you must use proper equipment.

~~~
Clubber
Yes, it's required for generators too. You have to install some sort of switch
(I forgot what it's called) so the house power doesn't feed back into the grid
and kill a lineman.

The title is very misleading as well. Just goes to show that Fox News and
their ilk aren't the only ones who do fake news, it's journalism in general.

Also, the title is an outright lie: "Thanks to Lobbying, It's Illegal to Power
Your Home with Solar Panels in Florida"

~~~
ideonexus
IFLScience is not "journalism in general." The acronym stands for "I F*%ing
Love Science" and it got started as a Facebook page made popular for posting
science-joke memes. The site and FB page, both run by Elise Andrew, are both
fairly disliked in the Science Online community for misrepresenting studies,
disseminating false information, and chronic copyright violations as she
blatantly steals photos and art from others and fails to give credit.

This wikipedia article covers just a little of what Elise Andrew is guilty of:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elise_Andrew#Criticism_and_acc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elise_Andrew#Criticism_and_accusations_of_plagiarism)

Links to this site have no business on HN.

------
veryrad
I work in the solar industry and can confirm that this is standard safety
practice in my state as well. When grid power goes down the inverter is
required to shutdown and remain off until a few minutes after normal grid
conditions are restored. This is to ensure that the grid equipment is actually
de-energized so it can be worked on safely. It's such a ubiquitous policy that
all inverters need to be UL Certified to prove that they do this.

Utility companies pull a lot of bullshit, but this policy is actually pretty
sound.

If you want to use your PV as backup power, you need to treat is as you would
a conventional backup generator and install a manual transfer switch that that
isolates disconnects the electrical service as the backup power is engaged.
This can nearly double the cost of the solar project, so most people don't do
it.

------
turbohedgehog
This reddit comment thread [1] explains the issue well.

In short: most households get grid-tied solar power setups with no batteries.
If the main grid is off, it creates islands of power where the units can't
safely backfeed to the grid. However, you can legally get a battery setup
which costs more money and use that when the grid is down.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/70oz3k/due_to_e...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/70oz3k/due_to_excessive_lobbying_from_fpl_florida/dn55emr/?context=3)

------
crististm
This seems to be straight from a dystopian movie or book I'm not sure it isn't
a joke. Is the "get off my lawn" a thing of the past in US? What business have
US gov, or anybody else for that matter, to do with what I do on my property?

~~~
wallace_f
Most states wont even allow you to collect your own rain water to drink it.

~~~
24gttghh
There only appears to be a single state (Colorado) where collecting rainwater
is strictly regulated,[0] and in most states (31) it is not illegal/no
regulation/even encouraged. A further 9 states regulate and encourage
rainwater collection, and then Texas provides incentives to do so. The
remaining 5 states simply have regulations around rainwater collection.

[0][https://energy.gov/eere/femp/rainwater-harvesting-
regulation...](https://energy.gov/eere/femp/rainwater-harvesting-regulations-
map)

~~~
wallace_f
Thanks for the link. I had come across this link [0], where:

>Both Texas and Ohio allow the practice for potable purposes, __which is
frequently excluded from other states’ laws and regulations __

Also there it notes most Western states disallow or regulate it.

From your link any state that says water rights are regulated, as far as I can
tell means water rights exist seperately from property rights, and typically
belong to the state.

Anyways it is not as bas as I had believed.

0-www.ncsl.org/research/environment-and-natural-resources/rainwater-
harvesting.aspx

------
maxerickson
The stuff about the bi-directional meter is warblegarble.

What the requirement is talking about is operating a grid tie system before
FPL upgrades the meter to one that measures in both directions in a way that
meets their requirements. This is a sensible requirement, not a ginned up
excuse.

(all the quotes are coming from a linked _grid interconnection_ guideline
[https://www.fpl.com/clean-energy/net-
metering/guidelines.htm...](https://www.fpl.com/clean-energy/net-
metering/guidelines.html) )

I wonder if there is actually any legal requirement to have a grid
interconnection. The article isn't real convincing.

------
rb1
Related to the website, not specifically the story:
[http://explosm.net/comics/3557/](http://explosm.net/comics/3557/)

------
smndelphi
You have to design the system correctly so it does not backfeed grid.
[https://goo.gl/iw8f8w](https://goo.gl/iw8f8w) Look at the marketecture from
solar edge. You can add in a generator with a automatic transfer switch. They
also highlight a scenario with existing PV and a separate grid tie inverter.

------
d--b
Isn't it necessary to have the grid as a backup consumer? What happens if you
over produce solar energy, but don't have the necessary means to dissipate it?

~~~
Filligree
Solar panels get less efficient as voltage increases, hitting zero at a
reasonable point. This is very convenient, since all you need is a buck
converter in the battery charger and any unused power can be ignored.

The power still exists, of course. It just ends up heating the panels, which
are fine with that.

------
smndelphi
You need to design system correctly. Look at literature from solar edge. You
could also add generator with automatic transfer switch. Also, you can modify
existing system. [https://goo.gl/iw8f8w](https://goo.gl/iw8f8w)

------
todd8
In 2015 about 10% of Hawaii's residential customers had solar installations
(0.5% is the national average). Such a large intermittent source of
electricity caused problems for the utility companies and led to limitation on
buying back electricity from these solar installations. Naturally, this has
slowed installation of additional residential solar in Hawaii. See [1] and
[2].

Hawaii has a goal of 40% renewable by 2030 but they have a number of technical
hurdles to get over.

[1]
[http://e360.yale.edu/features/will_new_obstacles_dim_hawaiis...](http://e360.yale.edu/features/will_new_obstacles_dim_hawaiis_solar_power_surge)

[2] [http://www.utilitydive.com/news/hawaiian-electric-
opens-20-m...](http://www.utilitydive.com/news/hawaiian-electric-opens-20-mw-
more-grid-supply-rooftop-solar-capacity/440523/)

------
thriftwy
Do they have the authority to enter your home and check what kind of power you
are using? What does it stem from? Can you shoot them for trespass?

The same thing WRT rain water which is mentioned in comments.

To me it seems like an unreasonable invasion of household borders: trying to
regulate something confined in a household.

~~~
criddell
No you can't shoot them for trespass.

~~~
JshWright
Florida has strong "castle doctrine" and "stand your ground" laws. If you can
convince a jury you were afraid, you can do pretty much anything you want on
your own property.

~~~
criddell
I understand that. But if you're so fearful that you think a code inspector is
there to harm you, you probably shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. Instead you
should seek medical care.

~~~
thriftwy
What if code inspector isn't there to harm you, but you see no reason to allow
them on premises?

I don't see why one would have to deal with spurious/frivolous visits from
officials without their own request.

~~~
criddell
Oh sure, I see what you are saying now. If it's inconvenient the most
reasonable course of action is to shoot the inspector.

~~~
thriftwy
It's not "inconvenient". It's violence. Is violence just inconvenient for you?

~~~
criddell
I replaced my water heater last spring and when the inspector came out to
check the work, it was pretty much just inconvenient. I didn't have any
murderous impulses.

~~~
thriftwy
I fail to immediately see on what grounds would inspector "come out to check"
your water heater. I imagine you don't give back anything to water grid or any
other grid. Maybe it is a concern that incorrectly installed water heater
might explode and damage other people's property? Is it a gas heater?

Otherwise, you are not 15 years old that need supervision, why would anybody
come to take a peek in your life? Since when do you owe them anything?

What if tomorrow an inspector will come to check the state of your underwear?
Where does it end?

~~~
criddell
> Is it a gas heater?

Yes.

> Where does it end?

It's all contained in the building codes and the local ordinances. It's pretty
well defined actually.

~~~
thriftwy
Tomorrow they redefine it by including your underwear, you will still have no
problems with it?

~~~
criddell
The court system is there to challenge bad laws.

If a law is somehow justifiable but I still don't like it, then I might break
it. If there are consequences for that, then I'll accept those consequences.

For example, if my shoddy water heater install causes my house to burn down
and my insurance refuses to cover the damage because it wasn't up to code,
then that sucks, but it's ultimately my responsibility.

~~~
JshWright
> For example, if my shoddy water heater install causes my house to burn down
> and my insurance refuses to cover the damage because it wasn't up to code,
> then that sucks

What if you're still inside the house when it catches fire, causing me (a
firefighter) to enter the house to attempt to rescue you, and I'm killed in
the process. Does that also "suck"? I imagine my wife and kids might feel a
bit more strongly about that...

~~~
criddell
I'm arguing for codes, not against them. My comment about accepting
consequences that might suck was in relation to the absurd hypothetical about
allowing the government to come inspect my underwear. I really can't think of
a situation where my tighty whiteys could result in the death of a
firefighter.

I think the person I was arguing with was trying to find out if there was any
line that the government could cross that I would think is unreasonable and of
course there is. Building codes, as they are today, aren't anywhere near that
line though.

------
xenophonf
In Africa we've built small home/lab/datacenter power systems that charge a
battery bank off utility mains plus on-site generation. It's basically a
gigantic UPS that can automatically switch among a variety of power inputs.
What's stopping someone from building something like that here in the U.S.?
Charge batteries from solar, supplement with mains power, maybe even add a
diesel generator for extreme emergencies, and use an automatic transfer switch
to prevent backfeeding the utility mains (which is super dangerous to line
workers and probably the reason for Florida's regulation). Not being a power
systems guy myself, I don't see where the flaws in such a design are. Any EEs
out there who care to comment?

~~~
chiph
If the system is technically correct (won't back-feed power into the network
because it has a transfer switch) it's a licensing and regulatory issue. In
this case, Florida Power & Light objects to systems like this and won't
certify them.

------
josteink
When generating emergency power is outlawed, only outlaws will have emergency
power.

I can't see how _anyone_ would think this was a good idea. I expect respect
for the law to plummet faster than you can say "Dad. Can you please give us
non-rotten food?"

------
denzil_correa
I'm waiting for someone to justify this with a warped sense of "economics".

~~~
stephen_g
So far it's just been technical reasons that would be a problem if pretty much
all standards-compliant inverters didn't already have safety features to
mitigate them...

------
microcolonel
Rather, thanks to _regulation_ it is illegal to power your home with solar
panels in Florida. Lobbyists are not legislators.

That said, power grids are incredibly difficult to coordinate, there is almost
no describing it. You need extra installed capacity if some endpoints are also
generating stations.

Personally I would not really want to backfeed to the grid anyway, so if this
regulation applies even when you don't hook up to the grid, that seems pretty
ridiculous.

Either way it doesn't seem like you'd need laws to keep people from hooking up
their panels to the grid, unless they need to cancel out a law that says they
must be able to hook up their solar arrays to a grid.

------
AtomicOrbital
I can see an opportunity here for the grid to become owned/operated by the
people, not massive corporate greed machines. A house who has excess sells it
to neighbors who do not have the solar capacity where neither are connected to
the normal grid. Throw some technology into automatically shutting down the
generator side every X hours unless its given authorization wirelessly. This
foolproofs the root cause of uncontrollable distributed hot lines.

~~~
jameshart
For an insight into how unregulated electrical grids work, google 'favela
electrical wiring'.

~~~
dom0
Doesn't look significantly worse than the American power grid ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

------
jaimex2
ok, so its illegal to power your home with solar... but is it illegal to
charge a battery with solar in Florida?

Powerwalls would still be viable and legal right?

~~~
yardie
It's illegal to occupy a house that is not connected to the local power grid.
The power wall would effectively be redundant and mostly useless. You have to
get your power from the power company.

~~~
kbutler
You could plug your freezer or microwave into your battery backup.

------
sumang
This is what happened in Spain too.

~~~
jvannistelrooy
Why is it forbidden in Spain?

~~~
loopbit
It's not forbidden, but you have to pay extra taxes and there's way more
limitations.

This gives a bit more background:
[http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2015/10/spain-a...](http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2015/10/spain-
approves-sun-tax-discriminates-against-solar-pv.html)

------
martinald
TBH I think it makes sense that all houses should be connected to the
electrical grid. Just like all houses should have proper sanitation
facilities.

This is a small edge case for people who want to be self sufficient even
though it makes no economic sense, as FPL does have net metering in place.

If they didn't have net metering in place I'd understand this, but considering
they do and at first glance looks like a very reasonable program, is it really
worth altering city and state building codes to allow it? The city/state would
have to pay for very expensive specialists in off grid solar/battery/inverter
setups to ensure they were at parity as a simple grid connection.

~~~
radisb
In FL, would it be illegal if I installed solar panels and just charged a
large battery, never connecting it to the grid?

Is it illegal to even just own a solar panel that is not connected to the
grid?

------
phasetransition
Since the original, hyperbolic article is no longer linked, This post is to
give some technical background on home electrical systems in the US for
understanding of the underlying considerations of how secondary home power
sources should operate. First two points of context:

1\. The United States does not have a uniform electrical code, but instead has
a document called the National Electrical Code (NEC) published regularly by
the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) as NFPA 70. The most current
version of the code is from 2017. Looking inside out, the NEC stops at the
main electrical service input to e.g. a house, and from that point a different
code, called the NESC, takes over.

2\. There are a wide range of variants of the NEC that are codified to force
of law throughout the United States. And states/cities/municipalities can
exempt and/or add to their preferred version. Here inside City of Atlanta
boundary, for instance, we are on the 2014 version of the code. But even then
there are different versions of the code in force at different locations in
the multiplex.

\---

With the caveats that not everything below is 100% uniform everywhere in the
US, here is how wiring in US homes generally works. There's a few steps here,
but it should all make sense:

A. There is a stepdown transformer with a "center tapped" secondary
configuration. The end result of this is that homes are fed with two energized
conductors ("hots") and a "grounded" conductor colloquially referred to as the
"neutral." The two energized conductors are 240 Vrms apart, and each energized
connector is 120 Vrms to the neutral (i.e. grounded conductor). _Hold the idea
that these three wires terminate on the incoming side of the main panel for
items B, C, and D._

B. The wall outlet in a typical US house, colloquially called an "Edison"
receptacle has three conductors. Those are an energized conductor (hot) the
grounded conductor (neutral), and the "Equipment Grounding Conductor" (EGC).
The latter is a green wire commonly referred to as "ground." Under normal
conditions the EGC (ground) carries no current, because it is not a part of
the electrical circuit between hot (energized) and neutral (grounded)
connectors.

C. Now imagine that you have a wiring problem inside your table saw, and as a
result the outer surface of that saw becomes energized. That surface is
"bonded," i.e. conductively connected, to the EGC (ground). So if the surface
has suddenly has a voltage on it, a large current then flows back through the
EGC to the main panel. This is because the EGC is a low resistance path. This
sudden surge in current causes the OCPD (i.e. "circuit breaker") to open. This
disconnects the energized conductor (hot) feeding the table saw.

D. At the main panel, and _only_ at the main panel, the EGC (ground) is
connected (bonded) to the neutral (grounded conductor). This is so that the
current from the EGC has a return path. In this case it goes equipment fault
-> EGC -> EGC to neutral bond in main panel -> neutral coming into main panel
from street -> center tap of secondary on the outside pole transformer. The
winding of the utility pole secondary then completes the circuit with low
resistance, insuring the OCPD (breaker) opens.

E. Note that _neither_ the main panel "grounding/earthing," technically called
the "grounding electrode conductor (GEC), nor any similar grounding/earthing
(i.e. connection to physical earth) of the center tapped neutral at the
utility pole play a role in the low impedance path for current that opens the
circuit breaker. In fact, the earth is specifically excluded as a "ground
fault current return" path by NEC 250.4(A)(5).

F. Any utility is concerned with essentially two things when it comes to
secondary power at the house: 1)Feeding electricity back to the grid while
their workers are making repairs/upgrades. 2)maintaining a _singular_ low
impedance "ground fault current return" path in the home at the main panel
electrical service entrance.

G. Point F is why there are subtleties about what can be tied to the grid, and
how the secondary "renewable generator" must behave in the event that it is
exclusively providing power while the utilities' transformer is physically
disconnected from the residence at the service entrance.

\---

Beyond points F and G are lots of subtleties around sub panels, secondary
current return paths, GFCIs, "floating neutral" generators, transfer switches,
ground field impedances, etc. It is a surprisingly big topic, but I'm happy to
try to answer specific questions.

------
binocarlos
If this is a joke then it belongs on Reddit /r/jokes - if it's not a joke it
belongs on /r/LateStageCapitalism

------
yanivleven
Lobbying should be made illegal

------
kbutler
Hysterical article is hysterical?

The actual laws are more reasonable:

"Renewable generator systems connected to the grid without batteries are not a
standby power source during an FPL outage. The system must shut down when
FPL's grid shuts down in order to prevent dangerous back feed on FPL's grid.
This is required to protect FPL employees who may be working on the grid."

Note the "without batteries" exclusion a similar exclusion applies to the
cutoff switch when the grid is down, to protect line workers.

[https://www.fpl.com/clean-energy/net-
metering/guidelines.htm...](https://www.fpl.com/clean-energy/net-
metering/guidelines.html)

~~~
ams6110
It sounds reasonable but the way to do this is with a device called a transfer
switch. It's used on any proper installation of local power such as a home
generator. When the utility power is out, the transfer switch cuts over to
local power. There is no feedback to the outside power lines; the transfer
switch disconnects them. Are home generators illegal also?

~~~
philplckthun
Seems like requiring such a switch would have been a more reasonable
regulation in this case. Isn't this already legally required in other
countries, when feeding power back into the grid?

> Are home generators illegal also?

If the quote is accurate then they are not: "Renewable generator systems". So
why does it make a difference to law makers? This sounds utterly bonkers

~~~
_dingus
That's literally exactly what the rule is asking for. See (4)(c) here
[https://www.flrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?ID=25-6.065](https://www.flrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?ID=25-6.065)

------
gnode
The title of this article is quite misleading. It's not saying that it's
illegal to have solar panels powering your home, only to have a solar system
that does not tie into the grid. Then making it seem that requiring anti-
islanding protection is some act of malice.

~~~
ubernostrum
The controversy is over what happens when the power supplied via the grid goes
out. There are generally two options that could be taken here, in light of the
argument that a powered house connected to an unpowered grid is unsafe:

1\. Any solar system on the house would be required to shut off at the same
time, leaving the house without power from any source, or

2\. A solar system on the house could continue to provide power to the house,
but only if the house is temporarily disconnected from the grid while doing
so.

Florida law effectively requires (1) and forbids (2). "Effectively" because,
although a switch is present which could disconnect from the grid temporarily
to allow the solar system to power the house, only the power company is
permitted to operate it, and in fact the power company is permitted to
physically lock the switch to prevent disconnection from occurring, thus
preventing the solar power system from being used when the grid is down.

The net result of these policies is that, yes, it is in fact not legally
possible to continue supplying power to your house from solar when the grid is
down.

~~~
KGIII
The ability to lock it is almost certainly for lock-out, tag-out reasons. They
will come ensure you're disconnected and then just one person has the key to
the lock they put on it. That one person isn't the supervisor, but the person
doing the work. If more than one person work on it, they will all put locks on
it.

~~~
ubernostrum
What it's intended for is irrelevant. What's at issue is they can just leave a
lock on there permanently, as a means of leaving you completely without power
when the grid goes down.

~~~
KGIII
That makes no sense. If the grid power is out, they want that switch turned
off. If its not, you're pushing power to the grid. If its off, you're not and
you are using it for your home power needs.

~~~
ubernostrum
No, the thing that is actually happening is the switch is not getting flipped
to disconnect when the grid goes out. Which means the solar panels also need
to stop producing power, and leave the house entirely without power.

That is literally the thing people are complaining about here.

------
jackemupguy2
Wait ... all that is says is that if you back feed into the grid, that you
have to have a system shut-off. That's common in all southern states as far as
I know? It's basically to protect utility workers that are working on
electricity in the area so they don't kill themselves. It makes perfect sense
and they have the ability to come in and turn your power off, naturally when
doing so. Am I missing something?

------
addHocker
Not conspirancid related - but a real problem. If there is a fire, solar
panels produce power while preventing water from reaching the roof - and
electrocute fireman. How to solve?

~~~
mapmap
As part of install there is typically a diagram added to the fuse box or
inverter showing how to switch generation off.

~~~
addHocker
The generation is not switched off - in fact the generation is not off-
switchable- that is the problem. You can break the circuit, but on any
connection of source and ground - it still shortens- so if the solar plates
shater due to heat stress and connect with dirty water ...

------
tobyhinloopen
In today's news: USA being USA

------
chris_wot
Hope power prices don't spike too much, or else this law will backfire pretty
quickly.

~~~
zeep
The hikes already started, apparently: [https://flaglerlive.com/102278/fpl-
rate-increase-settlement/](https://flaglerlive.com/102278/fpl-rate-increase-
settlement/)

------
spodek
You can point fingers and say it was _them_ lobbying, but everyone who didn't
do something to act in the opposite direction could have influenced but
didn't.

I say this not to blame more but to motivate people to take responsibility and
to act, to stop people from thinking they're powerless (no pun intended).

~~~
skrebbel
In other words, lobbying is great and there should be more of it!

I think people here are disappointed not so much in this particular outcome,
but the harmful effects of a political system that is nearly entirely fueled
by lobby money.

I mean, in other countries they call that "corruption".

~~~
spodek
> In other words, lobbying is great and there should be more of it!

I said nothing of the sort.

Lobbying is not the only way to influence. How about voting and educating the
population for starters?

