
I’m leaving China - imartin2k
http://www.baldingsworld.com/2018/07/17/balding-out/
======
lewis500
Regarding the line-cutting/cheating he talks about.

I like to distinguish between "culture" and something vaguer, which is what
type of equilibrium someone is trapped in. I started to think this way when I
lived in Argentina. Argentina is very corrupt, but just across the river is
Uruguay...the least corrupt country in Latin America by some metrics.
Argentines and Uruguayos are culturally quite similar (the relationship is
analogous to that between the US and Canada), but one country is much less
corrupt. I mused about this to my Argentine friend and he said "The difference
is that in Argentine politics, if you're not corrupt you'll get destroyed."
(This is kind of exaggerated but it gets the point across.) So while the
cultures are similar, individuals in each country find themselves in different
equilibria: if you're the only corrupt person in a group, you'll get caught
and ostracized; if you're the only uncorrupt person, you'll get forced out
(the same thing happens to police departments in the US). It is impossible for
an individual to change the equilibrium.

Likewise with standing in line: Chinese immigrants to America preserve much of
their culture for a while but don't cut lines; if they did they would be
called out for it, being among the few who do so. But if everyone around you
is blatantly cutting, then maybe you'll do it, too.

~~~
99_00
You should look into Richmond BC or Vancouver Canada. Lots of Chinese and lots
of corruption associated with Chinese population, especially tax evasion,
money laundering, immigration fraud, illegal business. The only line cutting
however is when the fire department is giving away free road salt or there is
a sale at the Coach outlet store.

~~~
kafkaesque
Not just in BC. There are quite a few Chinese and Taiwanese who are also
corrupt in Los Angeles and its suburbs (the San Gabriel Valley).

This is not to say there aren't thousands and possibly millions of Chinese
people who are good citizens.

But I mention it because OP seems a little too confident in his belief, when
there are are pretty massive examples of the contrary.

------
kenjackson
I never thought quite as broadly as the author, but what he says is consistent
with one thing I observed -- driving and pedestrian behavior.

In China drivers and pedestrians are both better and worse than those in the
US. I found drivers and pedestrians both to be much more aware and had more
agency about what they needed to to be safe.

Whereas in the US we assume a lot more that the rules of the road are going to
be followed, and they are. In China you shouldn't assume that a given rule of
the road is going to be adhered to, especially if there is any indication that
it might not be (if that makes sense).

This results in the US looking a lot more ordered on the streets. But it also
results in some situations in the US where it seems like people are brain
dead. I personally prefer the US in this regard, but I was also raised in it.

~~~
throwb187
Having driven in both countries, I totally agree, with one slight caveat.

In the past, I had the opinion that due to individualism versus collectivism,
US drivers tend to take things a lot more personally.

If you accidentally cut someone off or honk at them, US drivers feel it's a
direct assault on them. I've witnessed and even personally encountered some
scary road rage in the US, but never in China.

However, after finally having the chance to drive in New York, I realize that
it's actually a city versus suburban driver/pedestrian culture.

I was quite amazed by how driving in New York City was so similar to driving
in a Chinese city. Where it's more of a "dance" between cars, pedestrians, and
other vehicles like bikes.

~~~
YouKnowBetter
> I was quite amazed by how driving in New York City was so similar to driving
> in a Chinese city. Where it's more of a "dance" between cars, pedestrians,
> and other vehicles like bikes.

My experience tells me that is just a matter of scale and goes for a lot of
"willingness to get confrontational". When $THE_SITUATION happens once every
month you can initiate a fight or at least threaten, when that happens 4 times
a day, you either stop or will be stopped.

------
cmplxconjugate
As a speaker of mandarin (Chinese wife) and having lived in China for a year,
I really resonate with this.

One thing I try to explain to friends is the observation (and generalisation)
of the tier of social behaviour. In short, if the person is a stranger you are
total apathetic to them. If they are an acquaintance or friend you treat them
kindly at face value. If they are family... you treat them with a disturbing
blind loyalty.

~~~
KozmoNau7
>"if the person is a stranger you are total apathetic to them."

This in particular is so foreign to me, that it's actually hard to wrap my
head around.

~~~
neolefty
Yes, me too! Even in a big city in the US I have a hard time not making eye
contact.

Farmboy here.

------
iliketosleep
It's interesting that prior to Xi's leadership, you could have a conversation
about almost anything in China, so long as you didn't attack the Party itself.
Now, as the author points out, mere discussion of economy, business, and
financial markets can put you at risk. What's especially ominous is the
banning of Winnie the Pooh from media; when even harmless cartoon characters
are see to be a threat to the party, you know you're walking on eggshells.

~~~
duxup
It seems like they went from pragmatism back to authoritarianism.

~~~
iliketosleep
They went from being pragmatic back to being overly ideological. History
forever repeats itself, even more so in China where they are not allowed to
discuss it openly & objectively.

~~~
vfulco2
And the overreach goes in cycles until the latest one loses the mandate from
heaven and revolution of one kind or another ensues.

------
wonton2
I agree to most of the things the author said (except for America being the
center of the world and a moral lighthouse for everyone of course). But what I
think will get overlooked by most people is the beginning where he notes that
the chinese he has met in his daily life are very nice people. Do not forget
that they are the same as you. It sounds obvious but I think most people don’t
realize how similar we all are. Probably every deeper concern you have had a
chinese and russian and american person have also had. No they do not live
worried lives where they think that if they break an arm they will be
bankrupt. No they are not afraid every day of government agents knocking on
their door to drag their father away. The risk of each one is larger in one
country than the other. But day to day people think about the same things.
Every country have their introverts and extroverts, engineering types and warm
hearted caring types and the discussions that one does not exclude the other.
Superficially chinese cut in line because if you dont cut you get cut and i am
sure you would do the same if the situation was the same for you. Unless you
are the quiet introverted type, which is also the case in China. Dont forget
that this person talks about governments. You should dislike Xi for what he
does to the chinese people, not for what effects you fear he may have on USA
(the government, not the people).

~~~
mistermann
> Do not forget that they are the same as you.

How can you still hold this belief after reading articles like this?

> It sounds obvious but I think most people don’t realize how similar we all
> are.

That's more sensible.

Indeed, if any person from country <x> was raised in country <y>, they are
going to be generally like others born in country <y>, _but only if they were
raised there_. This is what constitutes _culture_ , and all groups of people
on the planet do not all share the same culture, as the author pointed out.

~~~
neolefty
> How can you still hold this belief after reading articles like this?

I'll push back on this. Spending time in China helped me look at myself and
break down what was universally human and what was learned culture. For
example, the story about the missionary giving a talk at the local English
Corner about "the meaning of life"

> He said he knew what people would say having lived in China for sometime but
> even so was stunned at how deeply and rigidly held the belief that making
> money was the entire meaning of life. There was no value system. There was
> no exogenously held right or wrong, only whether you made money.

Yes, people espouse that. Even to themselves.

But spend some time with them and find out what makes them happy and sad, and
what they want to make money _for_ , and it's the same as a westerner (and I
suspect the same as any mentally healthy human on the planet): having basic
autonomy in your life, developing as a person, quality time with friends and
family, helping each other, a chance to raise children peacefully and
otherwise contribute to society. Those are the things people genuinely want.

I think people universally find obsession with wealth to be unsatisfying, but
it's sometimes only after a learning experience. They may try it for a while,
but they realize it's a socialized value, not an intrinsic one.

To overgeneralize, China as a whole is still at an earlier stage of learning
about wealth than the US or Europe or Japan or Korea. But they are in the
process of learning the lessons of wealth and will, I believe, get there
faster than we did, simply because everything is changing faster there than it
did here.

Edit: And we in the West are not done learning either!

~~~
wonton2
Thank you, this is exactly my thoughts also. The one you replied to was the
kind of person my post was meant for.

~~~
mistermann
> The one you replied to was the kind of person my post was meant for.

Two questions:

1\. What kind of person _am_ I?

2\. How do you know this?

------
dhruvrrp
The issues the author has about line cutting and openly gawking seemed kinda
interesting. In my view line cutting happens because people have this view
that their time is more valuable than anyone else's, and so they don't see it
as breaking any 'rules' as such. And this isn't unique to China, you can see
this in a lot of poorer south/south-east Asian countries. Kinda why driving is
also a nightmare in these countries.

Gawking as well is common in a lot of places which aren't as culturally
diverse as say California. If a Chinese or white person visits India, then
outside of a few areas in the big cities they'll see similar behavior. Heck I
could see people staring at me when I was in Charlotte, NC a while back.

~~~
muddyrivers
I grew up in China. Line cutting has always been annoying, even infuriating,
for me. The last few times I visited back, I noticed the young generations are
much better in this aspect. There are rarely any improvements in this regard
among my generation and older ones. So I guess we have to wait for nature
taking its time.

Gawking is common in places that are not culturally diverse. I drove to many
small towns in Midwest. I got stared at when I was walking around the town.
Especially so when I entered local stores, diners, and pubs where everybody
else was white. I could tell many store owners, waitresses, etc. were not
comfortable when talking to me. I hope it is getting better.

~~~
neolefty
_Line cutting has always been annoying, even infuriating, for me._

Thank you for the data point! I spent 5 years in Chengdu, China and (full
comment elsewhere in the thread) found it fairly easy to crystallize a line
out of chaos. The only explanation I can think of is that many people feel
similarly to you!

Fairness may be instinctual:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2010/07/is...](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2010/07/is-
fairness-a-matter-of-instinct/340541/)

------
gpm
Archived copy:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20180717142635/http://www.baldin...](https://web.archive.org/web/20180717142635/http://www.baldingsworld.com/2018/07/17/balding-
out/)

------
pascalxus
Being in other countries like China and France really makes me appreciate how
world class the customer service is in America. Here in the US, you can tell a
waiter that your not happy with a dish and they'll immediately replace it with
whatever you want. You can make substitutions, you can alter the way it's
cooked (within reason), etc, and they still greet you with a smile and deliver
excellent service. There are many parts of the world, where you just can't do
that.

~~~
peterwwillis
American wait staff have to rely on tips rather than a living wage, which
forces them to take unending amounts of crap, or else they can't pay the rent.
American consumers can and do verbally (and sometimes physically) abuse wait
staff, and if the staff don't sit there and take it with a smile, they get
fired. I don't find this an endearing trait.

~~~
pascalxus
Go to france and try going to a restaurant. You'll see what i mean, right
away. It's a world of a difference.

~~~
peterwwillis
In France, if you want a waiter, you call them over. When they have time,
they'll get to you. They leave you alone because most French people don't want
to be bothered a lot while they're talking and eating, or reading the paper (a
sentiment I can get down with).

If something is screwed up with the food, they would first probably wonder why
this American tourist thinks that the French chef screwed up the dish that
their grandmother probably taught them how to cook. Then they'll listen to
you, shrug, and take it back and tell the manager or the chef. One of them
would decide what was appropriate.

If you told them you just didn't enjoy the dish and you wanted another one,
they may ask you why you ordered the first dish in the first place, and why
you think you deserve a free dish. If you ask for substitutions, they'd
probably tell you no, because most chefs don't want to deal with that and
often the way dishes are made preclude substitutions, not to mention backing
up other orders. And they'd be in the right. It's kind of stunning sometimes
how privileged American consumers can act.

A caveat to this is if you're in Paris; they can be really nice or really rude
based on a number of factors. In a small town, French people are really
friendly and helpful.

~~~
basica
I'm not an American, but I am used to being able to modify an order. I don't
think of this as being entitled as I am after all paying for the meal and
depending on the restaurant it's not exactly a cheap meal. That being the case
I don't see any reason for negotiation if I'm not happy with the meal. The
only thing I'd agree with is that it'd be absurd to request another meal for
free simply because the one you chose wasn't to your fancy.

The customer is always right attitude is one that I appreciate Americans
having. While not as bad in Australia as some parts of Europe, the attitude
here is definitely closer to "give me your money and and leave" than "what can
I do to ensure you leave happy?"

~~~
KozmoNau7
From my European perspective, US customer service is simply too much. Hovering
over you, with that unnerving fake-feeling politeness. It makes me feel sort
of like an errant child that needs help finding his mommy.

I don't need to be coddled, it's actually rather condescending.

I much prefer the European way of letting you look for yourself and then
asking simply "can I help you?", if you look like you don't quite know what
you're looking for. And if you tell them "I'm just browsing", they'll leave
you alone, to browse in peace. Much less stressful.

~~~
tigen
You can say that in the US and they also leave you alone. I don't know what
you're talking about.

------
muxator
> A common one is when someone is run over by a car and pedestrians just step
> over the body until a family member finds the body. The video goes viral,
> prompts a week of hand wringing, and then censors step in to talk about
> Confucianism and how the economy is growing. There is no innate value given
> to human life as precious.

~~~
msie
And yet there is outrage in Chinese social media when that happens. So "not
all Chinese"?

~~~
adventured
I think that's certainly the case, China is a country of vast differences
between people. To the extent China has seen arguably the fastest dash of
economic development in history, imagine what the corresponding, linked
cultural & educational development has looked like.

In the span of several decades, half a billion people shifted from an almost
zero traditional education environment in rural, very poor third-world style
villages - to rapidly developing, modern, economically considerable, urban,
very high density environments with intense competition and far higher
education attainment.

Then imagine how wild that must be as all of these different forces and
cultures collide and meld in real time, and it's essentially a population
group the size of the EU trying to make an epic adaptation leap in 20-30
years. I expect it produces at times a large gap between people in regards to
their personal evolution.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
This isn’t true: at various periods during world history, China has been one
of the richest and educated countries in the world. The potential of its
people was already there and all that was needed was a peaceful environment
with an enabling government.

~~~
GuiA
_> at various periods during world history, China has been one of the richest
and educated countries in the world._

Do you have any further reading on this? It doesn't strike me as too crazy of
a statement - but I'd be very interested in seeing how one would go about
actually quantifying it.

~~~
lhl
I did a quick search, this might not be a bad place to start (it references
the primary source, raw data, and file usage:
[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1_AD_to_2003_AD_Hist...](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1_AD_to_2003_AD_Historical_Trends_in_global_distribution_of_GDP_China_India_Western_Europe_USA_Middle_East.png)

Wikipedia has a good summary both of the Economic history of China [1] and the
Great Divergence [2] (really comes to a head with the collapse of the Qing
dynasty). Although devestated by civil war and WW2, IMO China really doesn't
descend into complete craziness until the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural
Revolution [3] that devastated China economically, socially, and culturally
(lost generation, send-down movement, red guards, etc).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_China_befo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_China_before_1912)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence#China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence#China)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_China_(194...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_China_\(1949%E2%80%93present\))

------
evmar
Can anyone comment on the risks of posting such an essay while still living in
China? Is this considered safely within the lines, a calculated risk, or
something else?

(Or has he already left China before posting the essay?)

~~~
lainga
To be fair, his blog was never exactly positive on China, and (as he states in
the article) he was very wary of crossing the fine line between moderate
criticism and falling afoul of the CCP.

Between the fact that he was forced out of his position, and that he says he's
"grateful" not to have been detained, I imagine he feels safe enough to get a
shot off as he leaves. I don't think the government would get rid of him with
an ostensibly administrative dismissal, and then turn around and detain him on
the back of this post, as he was about to leave the country for good; it would
look heavy-handed.

Or, as you say, he could already be gone... I don't know.

~~~
hangonhn
I give him credit for even trying China. China is the opposite of
libertarianism both culturally and politically. Even without the party,
personal liberty and worth doesn't factor in much in China or anywhere where
Confucianism took root. It's always in relations to others that you derive
your worth. That aspect of my heritage has always sit poorly with me (then
again I was raised in the US). I'm not saying one way is better than the other
but for a libertarian to give it a try took some courage.

~~~
lgvln
I would agree that China is probably the opposite of libertarian politically.
Culturally, I would find it hard to agree. Most people don’t give a crap about
others (in a liberating and selfish manner) unless it concerns them directly.

~~~
hangonhn
Oh that's a very interesting perspective. I didn't even think about that. Yes
there is a sense of "mind your own business" in China and that may be a more
recent development. What I was referring to is more along the lines of how
you've valued and viewed by people you know -- one does not have inherent
value simply because he is a human and therefore the idea of human rights and
individual liberty/freedom are somewhat foreign concepts to China and perhaps
East Asia.

------
neutraltones
This is a fairly disorganized, highly-opinionated blog post--it would benefit
most from broken down into several smaller topics (Chinese government's
treatment of expatriates and isolationism, US-China relations or the current
state of the US government, opinions on Chinese social culture as a whole).

Since most of the comments here are commenting on the author's cultural
opinions, I'll post a quote by Anthony Bourdain here. In the quote, Bourdain
was talking about food, but it applies to culture as well, and even aligns
with what the original poster said about China being more 'foreign than other
countries': "The one thing I know for sure about China is, I will never know
China. It’s too big, too old, too diverse, too deep. There’s simply not enough
time."

People in Beijing might gawk at a foreigner (I've seen it happen), and you
could even stereotype people in Beijing as doing so, but I've found that to be
much less common in Shanghai. And these two are prominent cities--are rural
villagers more likely to act isolationist, and if so, why? Because of the
Chinese government's own isolationist principles, and China's history? The
author should have been exploring this aspect in a historical context rather
than simply criticizing.

~~~
vfulco2
And Bourdain spent what 2 weeks there?

------
guscost
> Almost like the wealthy who need therapy despite living materially
> comfortable lives, Americans are fighting with vitriolic rhetoric in
> seemingly unnecessary ways.

The most accurate idea I’ve seen in years.

~~~
rconti
It strikes me as the opposite of a good idea, unless he's using it to justify
why the rhetoric, while "seemingly unnecessary" is actually, in fact,
necessary.

I really see no reason to believe the materially comfortable would suffer from
mental issues at a lower rate than those who are not materially comfortable.
And, if anything, they have the resources to afford it and the luxury of time
to take advantage of it.

~~~
guscost
I get your point, but you have to acknowledge that there is a gap between
"suffering from mental issues" and "treatment is necessary" even in wealthy
societies like America and free-healthcare societies like Britain. The best
emergency room in the world has a "triage officer" whose job is to determine
who needs treatment, and who is merely suffering, at any given time.

People with easy access to mental health care often think that they _need_
treatment for whatever ails them. Similarly, people with the opportunity to
worry about Big Problems and argue for whatever they believe (without
consequence) often think that they _need_ to have nasty, dehumanizing duels
over temporary political phenomena that will be forgotten in a few years.

Nobody should be discouraged from finding help for their mental issues (or
standing up for their beliefs), but at the same time they should understand
that it may be a luxury and _not_ a necessity.

~~~
rconti
Oh I see the point, yes this makes sense to me. Obviously it's not a black-
and-white world of "crippling mental problems" versus "no mental problems",
and to plenty of folks, engaging in mental health care is closer to life
optimization and perhaps a luxury rather than a necessity.

------
linkmotif
I really like this piece. So many good paragraphs.

Especially the end, and specifically:

> The United States has repeatedly failed and continues to fall short of its
> ideals but has shown a greater sense of self correction than almost any
> other. In China you cannot talk about most of history, while in the United
> States there are constant reminders about failures and how to apply those
> lessons.

~~~
num3ric
A comparison of the same order could be transposed to the USA and Germany.

------
lgvln
Wow. I do feel regrettable for what he and his family had to go through, to be
uprooted like that after staying there for nine years. I hope he has had
supportive friends while in the country.

What’s admirable is how he reacted to the whole situation. He doesn’t seem
bitter or prejudiced in that article.

I think he touches on the many aspects of China that are not readily apparent
to people who have not lived there. Most English people tend to view China
through the lens of the typical English mainstream media perspective while
also lacking in knowledge of their cultural and historical background.

------
lainga
_All powers we demand can be used against us at some point._

------
pascoej
A good read. It’s really crazy that almost everything you do on Chinese
internet is strongly linked to your identity too.

------
strayamaaate
Since the line-cutting topic seems to be of interest, I thought I’d share some
first hand experience.

Having succumbed to the need for a Big Mac a handful of times during a decade
long stint in China, I became accustomed to the devolution of queuing when it
was peak time. I quickly found myself pushing in and cutting others off, to
make sure my order was taken.

This made me reflect on how quickly I adapted to the situation. I found that
when push comes to shove, we seem to have a threshold which says “bugger it, I
want my burger more than I care about being polite”. I guess this is obvious,
but how easily I threw my supposed Western manners out the window was what
surprised me.

I think there’s a couple of observations that are interesting, which aren’t
covered in the article;

\- People that tended to queue jump just hadn’t been told it wasn’t ok. If it
wasn’t already complete anarchy, quite often another person in the queue would
tell them off with a stern “get in line”, to which the offender would
apologize and shuffle to the back of the line

\- In some places they have staff that “queue-manage”. Nobody cuts the queue
or complains, they just wait for their turn patiently, albeit not usually
quietly

I believe China knows it has accrued some deep social issues to deal with, and
that debt will need to be paid off slowly. I remember a few years back that TV
and print adverts promoting “dynastic and elitist” culture were banned. I
think that says a lot about the governments mindset.

I hope the above gives a little more context to anyone who hasn’t had the
privilege of finding themselves stuck in a fast-food restaurant in downtown
Beijing during peak hour.

~~~
lgvln
Well said. I think this describes the phenomenon perfectly. It’s not complete
anarchy, everything goes sort of situation. There is a set of hidden rules
that most people abide by.

A contrast with a typical Western setting is it doesn’t tend to gravitate
towards violence (in my experience). Whereas, a confrontation could easily
lead to a violent situation in most Western countries.

~~~
strayamaaate
That’s a good point, which I should’ve mentioned as it goes hand in hand with
the topic.

Despite how intense some situations can get in China, I’ve rarely ever felt
physically threatened. It’s culturally abnormal to resort to violence.

Yes there’s a few nutjobs out there (sword-guy in Sanlitun), but on the whole
it’s pretty incredible that such a big city, and country is relatively
speaking, so peaceful.

------
robotkdick
The experiences the OP has had are priceless, and read something like a novel
if someone like John Kennedy Toole had he written about living in China (comic
in some respects, but also surreal). The Snow White episode in the elevator is
delightful: the father having to explain to his daughter that being associated
with Snow White is a good thing, and she being upset at being labeled.

The world is shrinking and being stretched at the same time.

~~~
chj
> the father having to explain to his daughter that being associated with Snow
> White is a good thing

How can that be a bad thing? I honestly don't understand(I'm from China).

~~~
lhl
Maybe you've never had the pleasure, or it's different in other cultures, but
having experienced plenty of it first hand, it's incredibly off-putting when
people point/stare/or talk about you, especially if they do so in front of
your face because they think you can't understand their language.

------
woodandsteel
"There is a complete and utter lack of respect for the individual or person in
China. People do not have innate value as people simply because they exist."

I am imagining that is one reason that the Chinese government is so scared of
Christianity, which in recent decades has won over a great many converts,
since it teaches that all human beings are the sons and daughters of God, and
so should be treated with dignity and compassion.

Of course Christian societies have regularly violated this rule. But it has
had a great influence, and it combined with ideas from Western philosophy to
produce liberal democracy. And in fact Marxism, which is the official ideology
of the Chinese government, has rather similar philosophical roots in
Christianity and Western philosophy.

~~~
taobility
As a native Chinese, I want to say you are wrong. In our education from
element school, we were educated as atheist, and actually I am proud of that.
I don't believe God. And for Chinese Communist Party, they don't like any
religion, as that the opposite of Marxism, which is core part of communism.

------
SurrealSoul
Very dense and impactful, for what it's worth I have also been on the
receiving end of 'the foreigner in the elevator' but often people are nice and
just (extremely) curious when you introduce yourself in their language.

It does get exhausting really quick however

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Ya. Eventually one just pretends they can’t speak mandarin even if they can.

------
singularity2001
Off topic: "If there is one thing the world needs to do more it is laugh."

I always pondered about 'humor' being discouraged on HN being a GOOD thing,
because it saves real good humor from reddit-like automatisms.

~~~
singularity2001
"However, equating Beijing to Washington in many of these specific
[surveillance] issues is simply non-sensical authoritarian apologetics."

Here is where you[1] are dead wrong. Collecting the data is the original sin.
Once our profiles are created it is only a matter of time before they will get
abused. Yes, by a (future) evil government.

[1] (the author, probably the only one reading through those 100s of comments)

"I always ask people where they are from."

How about: "What do you DO?"

~~~
throwaway37585
> you are dead wrong

So you're equating Beijing to Washington?

~~~
singularity2001
only in specific [surveillance] issues

~~~
throwaway37585
You think Beijing and Washington are equal in terms of surveillance?

~~~
singularity2001
I'd estimate that the US has more data on you but china has more live
surveillance.

------
jessewmc
In my mind occam's razor applies to the 'culture' of money over everything in
China, if there is such a thing. I think theres a pretty simple explanation:

Most Chinese people have parents or grandparents who remember Mao and the
great famines, or worked on or still work on rice farms in the sort of abject
poverty no westerner--even a homeless one--can understand.

It's difficult to be exposed to this unless you live there for a while,
preferably somewhere other than Beijing or Shanghai, and work with and
interact with locals regularly.

The reality and nearness of the abject poverty of hundreds of millions of your
countrymen is a fear that is utterly foreign in the so-called western world,
but is very real in China. It is what everyone works to escape, and then works
to prevent for their descendants.

I don't think TFA was particularly accusatory, but there was an undercurrent
of judgement there that I think is unfair. If western culture was subject to
that environment with such a large population I think we'd see very similar
behaviour, understandably.

I also think this partly explains the tolerance to the current communist party
--they have made real strides in lifting the living standards of hundreds of
millions of people, and compared to still-too-near family memories of what
China has been through, a little authoritarianism is a small price to pay for
that.

I think China will need a long track record of prosperity before any real
social or political change will happen.

------
jbhatab
1\. I wonder how much the longstanding Cultural Revolution has had an impact
on their culture, it wasn't that long ago. While they were breaking down as a
country, USA was united and placed on top from WW2.

2\. Is there an "it's working" view of the government because they're
experiencing explosive economic growth. There may be some resentment towards
American corporations eating up the world and our government's active
involvement in every country's affairs. I could see how the Chinese government
pushing back against America enabling the rise of Alibaba, Didi, Baidu, etc
making up for some undesirable policies.

3\. I want to hear more perspective from the youth in the cities in China.

4\. I thought this part was odd:

"The tragedy of modern American foreign policy is the history of active
ignorance and refusal to actively confront the Chinese norm or legal
violations. The Trump administration is utterly incapable of defending the
values and assembling the coalition that would respond to American leadership
as they face even greater threats from China."

Trump literally just started a trade war with China. Right or wrong, he is
blatantly pushing back towards China economically because of their unfair
practices. It might completely backfire and might not be praiseworthy
'values', but you can't say he's not actively confronting China.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
The author's clear lack of having been in the USA for 9 years. He's getting
all his USA info from the media and at best people who already agree with him.

Whole thing really fell apart when he talked about USA politics imo.

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ilamont
_Even so [the western missionary] was stunned at how deeply and rigidly held
the belief that making money was the entire meaning of life. There was no
value system._

Consider also how the national psyche and personal outlooks on the world have
been impacted by a lifetime of propaganda celebrating Han-centric nationalism,
expansionist foreign policy, and a self-appointed party leadership whose
control and policies can never be seriously questioned.

~~~
lgvln
I can definitely see how a century of wars and conflicts can erode a society’s
moral values.

Expansionist foreign policy? How so? Perhaps the South China Sea?

~~~
KozmoNau7
Tibet, Taiwan, Mongolia.

------
jason_slack
As someone who spent months in China recently the elevator experience
mentioned really hits home among other points. Nobody expected me to
understand what they were saying and trying to hide picture taking etc. I just
embraced it. If I saw someone sneaking a picture I would just ask them:
你想和我合影吗？你会记得看到一个外国白人。

If someone started talking about me in an elevator or street cart or anyplace
I would say: 你想问我关于我的生活或国家的问题吗？

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tigen
About the line cutting thing, does that lead to fights? If someone cuts in
front of another, do they mostly accept that, or is it like the big fish eat
the little ones? Do most people still stay in a semblance of a queue or does
it just evolve into a pushing/shoving throng?

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thisisit
I don't know the author but I think it's very cynical to talk about issues in
China and love for freedom, once they are no longer your employers.

And this

> In a way, I sympathize with Chairman Xi’s emphasis on rule of law because in
> my experience laws/rules/norms are simply ignored

My understanding is that kids with strict parents are most liable to
misbehave. And same applies to people. If you run a restricted system people
will find other outlets to misbehave. So, I don't think Xi requires any
sympathies for what is happening.

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RcouF1uZ4gsC
>There is a complete and utter lack of respect for the individual or person in
China. People do not have innate value as people simply because they exist.

Respect for the individual simply because they exist as opposed to being part
of a larger group is mostly a recent West cultural thing. In most places, and
throughout most of human history, what has given a person value is their
relationship to the larger society.

------
petermcneeley
Contrast this: "I will use strong language about the authoritarian communist
government but I do not want that in anyway to reflect upon the Chinese
people."

With these sentences: "There is a complete and utter lack of respect for the
individual or person in China. People do not have innate value as people
simply because they exist. This leads most directly to a lack of respect for
the law/rules/norms. One thing I began to realize over time is, while not
German, how law, rule, and norm abiding Americans are with minimal fear of
enforcement. in my experience laws/rules/norms are simply ignored. Lying is
utterly common, but telling the truth revolutionary. There was no value
system. There was no exogenously held right or wrong, only whether you made
money. With apologies to a bastardized Dostoevsky, with money as God, all is
permissible. For instance, something as simple as standing in line in many
places can devolve into a knife fight given the utter lack of restraint in
cutting that is so common. A common one is when someone is run over by a car
and pedestrians just step over the body until a family member finds the body."

~~~
strayamaaate
I think it’s fine, most Chinese people complain about these things too. Nobody
likes a line-jumper, in any culture.

What I think is a problem is to suggest the entire Chinese populous of being
money-loving but without asking how that happened. Life is tough when you have
over a billion people to feed, and no government support structures to lean on
in times of need. It’s dog-eat-dog because it needs to be, not because the
Chinese people like it.

Regarding the not-stopping-to-help someone hit by a car; There’s pretty well
known story about a bystander who tried to help, getting into deep trouble for
doing so. I don’t have the link, but some creative Googling should surface the
story.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
There is an aspect that if you help someone who is hurt, you are acknowledging
responsibility for the trouble that caused it even if you had nothing to do
with it (e.g. guilty of murder if you happen to find the body). Chinese police
can be very lazy like that, but I think the first incidence of this happened
in Taiwan in the 90s.

------
singularity2001
"There is a complete and utter lack of respect for the individual or person in
China."

I found the same attitude towards Nature when I met Chinese breaking plants in
a natural reserve. Not sure if it was representative.

------
singularity2001
>> I know the unspoken reason for my dismissal.

…

>> I felt blessed to be able to dive into Chinese data everyday exploring
aspects that most in my position simply do not get to explore.

He worked/acted as a spy? (Maybe unknowingly)

------
msie
I don't know why I have to say this but this doesn't apply to everyone in
China:

\- he says nice things about his friends and coworkers

\- people line up

\- there is social media outrage in China when events (as he describes)
happens

------
forkLding
Baldings' words parallel Domino Theory.

------
singularity2001
So what do chinese people think and feel about "德 dé" (moral)?

------
singularity2001
"with money as God, all is permissible."

Did they overcompensate or is it compatible with communist doctrine?

~~~
MagnumOpus
It is not compatible, but communist doctrine is not applied in life beyond
parroting it in exams or at CCP functions.

------
regressiveparty
D-DOSed?

~~~
partiallypro
Wordpress doesn't scale that well, I assume the database was just overloaded.

~~~
exotree
It scales just fine. Some of the world’s largest publications run on it.

~~~
partiallypro
You're talking about people on Wordpress VIP vs something that is on JustHost.
This likely didn't scale at all. Anyhow, you can scale Wordpress, I do it
every day in Azure, but it's not something that does well on the fly. I'm not
attacking Wordpress.

------
pmarreck
Speaking as someone essentially atheist (or at least, secular humanist), this
entire piece is IMHO the strongest [secular] argument that can be made for
Christianity's positive effect on Western values.

~~~
tdb7893
What positive effect has it had? I'm not trying to be combative but in history
(and this was at a Catholic school) I was taught that most of the good parts
of modern European political philosophy came only after it became less
entangled with religion and came through the greater focus on rationality.

~~~
sophistication
This is how I'm understanding it: Rationality is essentially the practice to
value truthful speech. But for rationality to last in any culture, you first
of all require a gut level propensity to trust complete strangers that they
are indeed telling truthful things (rather than to only trust the immediate
familiar environment). There is some evidence that the Catholic church did
indeed bring this about, possibly mostly by _banning consanguineous marriage_.
This way, people were forced to interact with widely different families, to
open to them and to establish a culture of showing kinship behavior to people
outside of the family clan. World-wide, you find such societal organization
almost exclusively in parts which had substantial exposure to the Catholic
church. Of course, the Catholic church was in many ways obstructive to
rationality, but it did possibly provide the psychological foundation for it.

------
kevin_b_er
I find it strange that the author continues to reiterate how they're a
libertarian and even criticizes the "god is money" view of the Chinese, when
back here in the United States the god is indeed money too, we just pretend it
is not. Libertarianism requires the same practice around fiscal matters. The
god must be money under libertarianism because it is every man for himself,
dictated by your level of wealth. The will of the people vested in a working
government defends the weak against the excesses and greed of the rich.
Libertarianism does not solve this, it merely replaces a government not
actually formed by the will of the people with those who have the most
resources and have the asymmetrical bargaining power.

~~~
wuliwong
>it merely replaces a government not actually formed by the will of the people

I'm confused by this statement. What do you mean "not actually formed by the
will of the people"?

~~~
cellularmitosis
I'd imagine he's referring to the little ways in which our government and laws
seem to end up going against the interests of the average consumer. Lobbyists
orchestrating Congress to act against the interests of their constituents,
etc. Or issues like the chairman of the FCC undoing net neutrality, when
nearly every citizen is in favor of keeping it, etc. Increasingly it seems to
be "of the will of the corporations", not the will of the people.

~~~
sremani
FCC and other federal bureaucracy are by-product of Will of People ..
centralize the power .. Federal government any way!

To blame libertarians for FCC is like blaming John McCain for Vietnam war.

~~~
IOT_Apprentice
The follow up would be that the will of the people has been coopted by
corporations and the 1%. They use their wealth to control the funding of
politicians and bend them to their will. "Corporations are people", brings an
imbalance of power.

------
ausjke
can someone please summarize? a bit too long to read at the moment

~~~
gpm
The honest answer is no. It's information dense already.

It also includes lots of the authors personal opinions that I don't want to
misstate.

~~~
ausjke
basically he tried to do free speech in a country where free speech is
strictly forbidden, which led to all these, yes he had no choice but to leave.

