
Tesla Gets $350 Million In Government Money to Build Model S Sedan - Flemlord
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1018497_breaking-tesla-to-unveil-model-s-sedan-on-march-26-and-has-been-accepted-for-350-m-in-government-loans-to-build-it
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3pt14159
Ok, now I'm 100% certain that the price of lithium is going to skyrocket.
There isn't that much of the stuff pulled out of the ground every year, and
most of it goes to small battery applications - not cars like the Tesla.
Toyota's electric cars have purposefully stayed away from lithium because they
knew that there was not enough lithium for Toyota sized production.

Unfortunately lithium is not traded on any futures market that I know of, and
I know of no publicly traded stock on any exchange that solely represents
lithium mining interests.

Does anyone know how I can buy bulk ($25k+) lithium? I'd prefer not to buy it
from a science supply store. I'm getting a quote from <http://www.baotou-
rareearth.com/> right now, but ideally there would be an ETF that tracks the
price for me.

~~~
pchristensen
I read this a while ago - <http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/1124/034.html>

Symbols SQM and POT from the article are relevant if you want to invest in
Lithium.

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jacoblyles
Forget Y Combinator. I'm applying to TARP.

~~~
vaksel
the application form is probably shorter too

~~~
corentin
Usually it's the size of a business card.

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mynameishere
Can I give a strong suggestion that news stories not be submitted from
obviously-biased sources? The headline should be the same as what the
reliably-green nytimes asked a few months ago:

[http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/should-
taxpayer...](http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/should-taxpayers-
pay-to-back-tesla-motors/)

The Tesla business model, to me, seems hopeless. Look: There's nothing special
about running vehicles by battery. They were doing it many decades ago. Every
big factory and every golf course has numerous electric vehicles. In the
proper context, they're just great.

The technology is well-established, but thus far none of the manufacturers
thought it wise to move from factory to highway. I'm guessing there are some
good reasons, among which is the fact that diesel cars are usually more
efficient...

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eande
“fact that diesel cars are usually more efficient...” is true if compared to a
gasoline combustion engine. But there is no simple comparison on efficiency
between the 2 different technology battery vs gasoline.

My take is the other way. Loan several billion dollar to any of the big three
is not doing much. The cash burn rate they have will eat the money quickly and
just to survive. Since the first oil crises in the ‘70 any of the Detroit
companies had lots of time to spend R&D money on alternative power train
solutions. They decided not to do a lot for multibillion dollar revenue
companies other than building bigger and bigger SUVs. Japanese car manufacture
by now have some lead in hybrid and battery technology and a small company
Tesla has in my opinion a better chance to compete in this segment.

~~~
tjic
> there is no simple comparison on efficiency between the 2 different
> technology battery vs gasoline.

What's wrong with "km/J" ?

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Retric
You can get electricity from oil without refining it to gas. The only real
useful metric is $ / mile and electric cars win that one.

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ensignavenger
They also plan on being profitable by mid-year. I wonder if GM, Ford, or
Chrysler could say the same? At least the Government has a good chance of
their loan to Tesla being repaid!

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ssharp
Didn't it just come out that their product costing was completely off-base and
every car was being sold at a loss. This company has never impressed me and
they just don't seem to have the leadership to ever become viable. They've
already burned through lots of money, promising the whole time that
profitability is right around the corner.

This model isn't going to be out until 2011, by then, GM and Toyota will
likely have more commercially viable PHEV models available to the public. I
just don't see Tesla getting past a niche market. ANd getting past that point
should be the expectation given the size of this loan.

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electromagnetic
Toyota I can see having more commercially viable PHEV models, but have you
paid attention to any NA automaker's adverts recently? They haven't even
noticed that they're in a burning house carrying a crate of gunpowder. I mean
watch the commercial for the new Ford F-150, it has _steps_. Yes their selling
feature right now is _steps_. It's mentally retarded, they completely gloss
over the fact they've increased the carrying and towing capacity for the
vehicle because they've got _steps_.

They even say something like 'with the extra capacity, you'll need those steps
more than ever' and I'm just trying to think through the logic there, because
whenever I've seen a truck fully loaded it's been done by a fork lift or a
bobcat for when we filled the sucker full of sand... it had a purpose, I
swear! And it wasn't sandcastles neither.

My point is, is that everybody is watching gas prices to see when they spike
up again. The price is quite nice here in Canada, but we're all waiting for it
to double and be at the same price it was last summer. What no NA automaker
seems to realise is that the market has completely changed, right now almost
everyone is wanting fuel efficiency because everyone's afraid they're going to
be spending a fortune commuting.

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ryanwaggoner
_they completely gloss over the fact they've increased the carrying and towing
capacity for the vehicle because they've got steps_

Sadly, this might just be because they know their market and they know that
most people who buy the F-150 aren't using it to tow stuff, but are the type
who are more likely to buy it because it has shiny steps.

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HeyLaughingBoy
You're partly right: I think it's because all the vehicles in its class have
roughly the same capability, but the steps can differentiate the F150 from the
competition. Around here any truck sold from dealer inventory automatically
comes with a tow package and will at least occasionally be used to tow
something. Even my Xterra is sometimes used to tow a trailer.

People are still buying big trucks: I just bought my wife a used F250 with
7.3L diesel and it's her daily ride!

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lunchbox
As a side note, I dislike the term "government money," since it makes it easy
to forget the the money ultimately comes not from the government but from the
people. "Taxpayer money", on the other hand, has a pejorative connotation,
since it is often used derisively. Maybe "public money"?

~~~
Alex3917
Except for that the money doesn't come from the people, since it is fiat money
as opposed to money being collected via taxes.

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gravitycop
_Except for that the money doesn't come from the people, since it is fiat
money_

Don't you mean "seigniorage" money? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage>

_as opposed to money being collected via taxes._

Isn't seigniorage a type of tax? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage>

_seigniorage is also referred to as an inflation tax [...] the "inflation tax"
is paid by those who hold the existing currency, which results from their
holdings of currency becoming devalued through inflation because of the
introduction of additional money supply._

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Alex3917
"Isn't seigniorage a type of tax?"

Yes, but it's not a tax on the people, it's a tax on dollar holders.

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amix
The major problem with electric cars is building an infrastructure for them.
First, they can run around 100-150km (60 - 100miles) and after this they must
recharge for a day or so. I.e. they are pretty useless on longer trips.

In Denmark, Dong Energy (which is Denmark's biggest energy company) has signed
an agreement with Better Place to build electric "gas stations" where one can
drive in and get a fresh battery. I think Israel also has an agreement. And
with such gas stations, electric cars could be a very fine choice since they
are cheaper (pr. km) and a lot more environment friendly.

And Teslas are pretty hot, so it would probably be a very good investment by
the US gov.

Sources: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DONG_Energy>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Better_Place>

~~~
Retric
FYI: your numbers are wrong.

<http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/perf_specs.php>

    
    
      Tesla Roadster
      Range: About 220 miles (based on EPA combined city/highway cycle) 
      Full Charge: About 3.5 hours using the Tesla Motors High Power Connector.
    

One of the better suggestions I have heard was an all electric car where you
could use an external generator for long trips. 95+% of the time you don't
need and save a lot of weight over a hybrid but it but it's still an option
for long trips and you could even add extra storage space.

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ryanwaggoner
_One of the better suggestions I have heard was an all electric car where you
could use an external generator for long trips. 95+% of the time you don't
need and save a lot of weight over a hybrid..._

Why is this better than a hybrid? Would the generator be powerful enough to
provide enough electricity to operate the car? If so, I have a hard time
seeing how you would save weight or how it would be more efficient, since
you're going to have more steps in the process, each with more efficiency
loss.

~~~
Retric
A 30hp generator would be sufficient to give a car essentially unlimited
range, but it adds a few grand in cost, 4-500 lb's of weight and a host of
mechanical issues. If you don't need it 95% of the time what's the value in
dragging it around? If you can rent it for less than the cost of ownership
what's the value in renting it?

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donniefitz2
Here is your state issued car.

