
The Anatomy of Determination - revorad
http://www.paulgraham.com/determination.html
======
ankeshk
1.

Easy way to become better at controlling will power is controlling your diet.
Yep - glucose increases will power.
<http://psr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/11/4/303>

2.

"Environment trumps discipline"

I'd read an article that said that for most people - their income will be very
close to the average income of their 5 closest friends. Create the environment
- and discipline will come on its own.

3.

Ambition either comes from having kickass heroes or from facing strong
problems. England started becoming a super power only when King Henry read the
book of King Arthur and his Knights of the round table. (King Arthur's story
was a false story written by Thomas Malory - while in prison. A convict
changed the fortunes of England which was until then a land of misfits and
barbarians - by giving them a hero!)

When there is a lack of heroes, you need strong problems to build that burning
ambition. Eg: how Chandragupta and Chanakya went on to unite India 2300 years
ago - because Alexander threatened their existence. Up until Alexander showed
up in India - no one even dreamt of uniting India...

4.

I think what is missing is luck - which can also be hacked somewhat. Book: The
Luck Factor: The 4 Essential Principles: [http://www.amazon.com/Luck-Factor-
Four-Essential-Principles/...](http://www.amazon.com/Luck-Factor-Four-
Essential-Principles/dp/1401359418/)

~~~
nico
About point 3, I think you have cause and effect backwards, most likely your 5
best friends are either friends from college or work, or maybe neighbors.

So it's not like having wealthier friends will make you earn more money, but
rather earning more money will probably lead you to have wealthier friends.

~~~
ankeshk
I think its like with smiling. It goes both ways.

If you're in a good mood - you'll smile more. And if you are in a bad mood -
but you make a conscious effort to smile - your mood will change to become
better.

Good mood leads to smiling. And smiling leads to good mood. Its circular.

Similarly - rich friends will lead you to become richer. And once you're rich
you'll make more wealthier friends. It goes both ways.

~~~
timwiseman
What it sounds like you are saying is that it can, in the right circumstances,
create a feedback loop in either direction. And you are right.

With that said, Nico had an excellent point. For most people their friends
will include a peer group that almost certainly makes similar incomes to
theirs, and for most people you will only really start making a lot of friends
at a higher socio-economic point on the ladder when you move up to (or are in
the process of moving up to) that same higher point yourself.

------
davidw
> I can't think of any field in which determination is overrated

Getting into land wars with Russia with winter approaching.

~~~
sharpn
That's willfull. Having the discipline to wait until spring (no matter what
the cost) would have been determined.

~~~
davidw
If you're "ambitious", you may be going where no one has gone before. These
days, everyone knows that getting into a land war with Russia is a bad idea,
but it may not have always been so. Same thing with lots of other people whose
ambition caused them to push the limits (mountain climbers?). If you're at the
limits, you may not know when 'determination' means pushing on despite
everything to achieve some great success, and when that same pushing on will
cause you to die, when turning back may have let you live to fight another
day.

Not sure where I'm going with this, I guess I just like to play devil's
advocate a bit:-)

It's a good essay, but perhaps what I don't care for in general terms is the
vagueness that surrounds the whole issue. Some people are smart because they
push on in the face of great opposition. Others win plaudits for "knowing when
to quit" and changing direction. It's all a bit wishy washy, although I think
that PG's elements for success are, in a generic way, about right. Just that
that vagueness sort of precludes one from applying them to specific situations
until after the fact.

~~~
timwiseman
_Some people are smart because they push on in the face of great opposition.
Others win plaudits for "knowing when to quit" and changing direction. It's
all a bit wishy washy,_

Its not that its wishy washy, its that one of the great keys to success is
knowing the difference between the two. On the one hand, if you are on the
right track you probably need to be ready to persevere in the face of enormous
opposition, but if you are on the wrong track, no matter how far you have
gone, change directions. Telling the difference can be quite challenging
though, at least in some cases.

~~~
billswift
Exactly. It's like the old question of the difference between having an open
mind versus holes in the head.

Both vary so much between even similar situations, that there is no way of
knowing which side of the line cases fall on, unless they are extremely good
or bad, except try it and see.

------
nico
In highschool there was this guy who used to study a lot. Everybody said he
was studying too much, and that he needed to study that much because he wasn't
that smart. Finally he graduated with one of the best averages in our class.
Then he got into the best engineering school in Chile, and I remember thinking
that maybe he wouldn't be able to make it, or that he wouldn't have such good
grades. Well, I was wrong. He graduated from engineering with a great average.

Now I don't know where this guy is working or what he's doing, but I have no
doubt he will achieve whatever he sets himself to accomplish. For me, he is an
incredible example of how will and discipline got him to achieve the things he
wanted.

2 other stories about this guy:

1\. Until he was around 12 he was fat. Then one day, after summer vacation he
came back to school thin. He stayed like that at least until he finished
engineering.

2\. Junior year in highschool he had the best average in the advanced math
class. There was a math competition and he was not chosen to go. When he asked
the teacher about this, the teacher said: "for this competition we need
talent, not effort"

~~~
lutorm
_"Everybody said ... that he needed to study that much because he wasn't that
smart."_

That's a dead giveaway for a "fixed mindset" about intelligence. Studies show
that people that think that effort is an indication of lack of ability will
avoid effort to not look stupid, leading them to perform less well over time
than those that don't have this mindset. See research by Carol Dweck et al.

~~~
nico
This is a very common thing around here indeed, people don't like to admit to
making an effort, at least regarding school, so lots just won't push harder,
whereas others will just lie, saying they didn't study very much. Nobody wants
to look like they made a great effort and then got an awful grade (fail).

------
xenophanes
> A good deal of willfulness must be inborn, because it's common to see
> families where one sibling has much more of it than another.

This is a non-sequitur. The hidden assumption seems to be that siblings in the
observed families are treated exactly the same and have exactly the same
environment, in every way, which is blatantly false.

~~~
pg
It's also random which kids are willful. It's not simply the firstborn.

~~~
akd
It's also "random" (more like unpredictable) which kids receive what types of
environments. Sometimes, Dad's favorite is the eldest son, sometimes Daddy's
favorite is the youngest daughter.

------
JesseAldridge
I have a feeling that "discipline", that is, getting yourself to do things by
sheer force of will, only works in short bursts. For long periods, you need
create a system for yourself that takes your own weakness into account. For
example, for a long time I tended to exercise in intermittent bursts. I would
do it for a few weeks, then catch a cold or something and fail to pick it up
again afterword. The solution to this problem was to create a schedule for
myself. I wake up, eat breakfast, check the internet, work for two hours,
exercise, eat lunch, etc.

Another important thing is strong _principles_. That is, you have to have
clear, logical reasons for making the sacrifices necessary to achieve your
goals. Every time you're tempted to do something other than pursue your goal
you're going to have to argue with yourself. If you aren't completely
convinced that what you're doing is truly worthwhile, temptation is eventually
going to win.

~~~
billswift
I don't know where you got that definition of "discipline". Discipline is the
development of or training intended to produce a habitual and specific pattern
of behavior. There are several slight variations in the meaning of discipline,
but none that comes close to its being used as a synonym for will-power.

------
epkann
It's interesting that Paul believes willfulness is primarily inborn,
especially since he now has a child. How would he react if his child were to
exhibit lack of willfulness (a trait he clearly admires)?

I agree that among siblings in the same family, one often observes a wide
range of willfulness. However, the same family may not be as homogeneous an
environment as Paul assumes. It's been shown that elite universities
disproportionately admit eldest children and only children. It would seem that
the differential upbringing that only and eldest children receive (in
undivided parental time and attention, etc.) does result in increased
willfulness, discipline, and/or intelligence.

Ambitious people often hope that their children will exceed their own levels
of achievement. Empirically, it seems that there is a strong regression-
toward-the-mean effect among the children of parents who have done great
things. I wonder how much of this is nature versus nurture - could there be a
negative effect of growing up in too rich of an environment that diminishes
one's chances of becoming a Steve Jobs or Paul Graham? How do you train
willfulness and ambition in a child?

------
bigmac
This essay seems to be somewhat at odds with
<http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html> from January 2005.

Now, PG argues that discipline is an important component of determination. For
startups, determination is called "the most important predictor of success."

In the earlier essay, these comments were made:

 _Now I know a number of people who do great work, and it's the same with all
of them. They have little discipline. They're all terrible procrastinators and
find it almost impossible to make themselves do anything they're not
interested in. One still hasn't sent out his half of the thank-you notes from
his wedding, four years ago. Another has 26,000 emails in her inbox. I'm not
saying you can get away with zero self-discipline. You probably need about the
amount you need to go running._

PG, does this difference in opinion represent increased wisdom due to the
experience gained from doing YC rounds? Or is it simply a nuanced or
superficial difference?

~~~
pg
I talk about this in the last two paragraphs. You need more discipline in a
startup, because you have to work on what other people need rather than what
you want.

~~~
gcheong
If we assume the best case is when what you want to do also solves a need for
other people and the worst case is when a need is solved for other people but
is something you have no desire to do, where do you see most startups falling
on this spectrum?

------
harshavr
As a grad student in math, i would say that determination still plays a
important role. For me, there have often been periods where you lose
motivation and dont see why you are doing what you are doing, and then
sometimes there are moments of clarity. (someone aptly compared this to
mountain climbing). I imagine this happens in lots of other fields,(music, to
pick a random example) where there is a prequisite of learning lots of
arbitary things before understanding/creativity happens. Determination, is
what you might need to to go through these phases.

~~~
timwiseman
I certainly hope you are right. I am just starting my own graduate studies in
math, but having limited apparant innate abilities in mathematics I am
counting on practice and study to correct that deficiency.

~~~
Tichy
"limited apparant innate abilities"

How does that manifest for you? What do you consider those abilities to be?

I think in maths everybody is kind of stupid. Meaning, nobody is really good
at maths.

------
trunnell
PG's essay is an excellent exploration (and adaptation) of these ideas about
determination in the Boston Globe last month:
[http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/08/02/...](http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/08/02/the_truth_about_grit/)

The basic research referenced in the Globe article was done at Penn:
<http://www.gritstudy.com/>

I wonder what the original researcher, Angela Duckworth, would have to say
about PG's ideas.

------
edawerd
This has got to be, in my opinion, my 2nd favorite PG essay, right after the
'How Not to Die' essay.

 _So here in sum is how determination seems to work: it consists of
willfulness balanced with discipline, aimed by ambition._

The essay is probably meant to help investors pick good investments. But I say
that founders can use it to help pick good co-founders, as well as improve
themselves. I would love to read more on things/characteristics about a person
that might give evidence of a person's willfulness, discipline and ambition,
or lack thereof.

------
andreyf
Like most essays of philosophy, this seems to stop at the formation of the
hypothesis. And while the model is interesting, it's still important to ask
"does it reflect reality?". To answer that, we need to quantify "discipline",
"determination" and its sub-components. And then, see if they really are good
predictors of successful founders?

------
tmsh
determination is a tricky thing. but i think there's also the ability to
'program yourself' to be determined. this usually means figuring out how to
make whatever project you're working on fun -- and figuring out how to make
sure the projects you're working on now and in the future are at least related
to some long-term interest.

great discussion though. there is probably a 'language' of determination. and
more efficient ways of being determined than others. i mean determination
etymologically is related to a terminus or boundary. it is literally the
ability or quality of getting to a boundary.

so if we infuse the meaning of determination with the idea of getting to a
successful terminus -- we're referring to the ability to get the transaction
done. in the case of startup space, one has to analyze what are the common set
of obstacles that prevent getting the transaction done.

well (1) the manner in which the final terminus needs to be renegotiated as
the project changes and competing views about the desired end result are
brought into view -- so negotiation of the final result is key. (2) taking
advantage of previous solutions, not reinventing the wheel but (3) not using
any wheels which are limited or limiting and (4) spending maximum time and
energy on the specific product.

but i think the most important thing is to regularly analyze whether or not
one is on the optimal path to one's goal (first-round funding, e.g.) and also
whether one can make the process of the development so bloody fun that one
wants to spend as much time on the project as literally possible.

the most undervalued link in the whole network of the problem space is between
the founders and their problem space. i.e., figuring out how to spend as much
time as possible in your REPL, with your design diagrams, or otherwise amongst
your code.

and now, i am just going to press 'add comment'. but yeah, nice article.

------
jack7890
Would be curious to know how he actually evaluates determination when
analyzing startups. How can you tell?

~~~
pg
It's hard; that's our biggest problem. It's straightforward to tell in a 10
minute conversation how smart someone is, but very hard to tell how determined
they are. When we pick wrong it's almost always by misjudging determination.

~~~
9oliYQjP
Felix Dennis has this to say on the subject:

 _Whatever qualities the rich may have, they can be acquired by anyone with
the tenacity to become rich. The key, I think, is confidence. Confidence and
an unshakable belief it can be done and that you are the one to do it._

I think that last part is key. Determined people feel an obligation to
succeed. Most feel like the opportunity is theirs to _lose_ and not gain. Here
are some behaviours I've noticed when speaking to technical people that I
think are determined:

1\. They speak calmly -- almost without emotion -- about their plans, even
while responding to criticism. I think this is because they've worked out all
possible scenarios in their head so many times before that spouting off about
them one more time is just rote exercise. It's almost like they're an
objective third person describing the plan.

2\. They confide in others about their vulnerabilities and weaknesses. I think
determined people are just confident enough that they aren't over-confident.
Over-confidence is what differentiates a determined winner from a stubborn
loser.

3\. They never settle when it matters. We all went to school with the guy or
girl that scored an A on a test and threw a fit because they wanted an A+. You
never get the sense that they're satisfied until the goal is reached. Most
people think this is all a show, and that these determined types are rubbing
their noses in the average folks faces. That is not the case at all. The
average folks don't matter to these people. They never enter the equation.

Other than these 3 things, I'm hard pressed to think of other characteristics.
I've seen quiet determined people, loud mouth cocky ones, and everything in
between.

------
sharpn
Good points well made.

An interesting second-derivation of this is with co-founders. Two (or more)
people who share a goal can spur each other on via internal competitiveness &
a symbiotic pattern of compensating for dips in the other's discipline or
willpower. For example I'm sure neither Lennon or McCartney would have
achieved half of their combined output.

------
stevenj
I'm guessing this essay (at least partially) explains why Sama was included in
Pg's "Five Founders" - <http://paulgraham.com/5founders.html>.

On a separate note, I think there's a typo in the 14th paragraph, second
sentence: "There seem to be plenty of examples <of> confirm that."

------
jacoblyles
Can anyone suggest a method or example for improving self-discipline?

~~~
gaius
Sign up for a Marathon.

~~~
jacoblyles
ew.

------
david927
Determination is great for investors because it increases the chance that
they'll get a return. But the number of great ideas is x, and having a bunch
of companies bound and determined to do something with x * 100 is relegating
them to living under a horrible opportunity cost -- eating ramen for a
subsistence profitability level when they could be doing something more
interesting and profitable.

A company needs to eventually have an idea that's both unique and compelling.
It should optimize on having a sustainable competitive advantage.
Determination is incredibly important because few companies start out with the
right mix and usually have to experiment to get it right, but let's not over-
idealize it. All the determination in the world won't let you make a cake with
sand and olive oil. A founder has to know "when to hold 'em and when to fold
'em."

------
rw
_Very_ true in my experience:

"When you take people like this and put them together with other ambitious
people, they bloom like dying plants given water. Probably most ambitious
people are starved for the sort of encouragement they'd get from ambitious
peers, whatever their age."

~~~
abalashov
I've had the opposite experience, depending on what kinds of personalities are
involved. Sometimes when you put several ambitious people together, they all
destructively interfere with each other with the strength they radiate,
particularly if they're young and inexperienced.

Ambitious people are almost always more granular and more preoccupied control
freaks than people who are less ambitious. That can be a problem unless they
are also diplomatic, pragmatic and wise.

~~~
logicalmind
This has been my experience as well. Their ambitions must align, at least
somewhat. If ambitious person A wants to go one direction and ambitious person
B wants to go another direction, it probably won't work. But being around
other ambitious people at least gives you the opportunity to meet someone with
ambition and goals that align with your goals.

------
kuldeep_kap
Great post, again!

I think if you read the article again with categorizing all things into
symptoms and cause, you'll get better understanding. Most people confuse
between two and try to instill symptoms into themselves and mostly end-up at
wrong end. You cannot simply say that from tomorrow I'll be more determined on
my goals. There has to be passion, love and solid drive for what you do, as
mentioned at the end of article. I think veterans and people who have been
constantly successful at what they are doing would agree that love for what
you do is an important component to success otherwise you will simply run out
of your breathe by constant push without any passion.

------
revorad
This is a very interesting essay because for the first time pg explicitly
states that even if you find something you love to do, it doesn't completely
do away with the need for determination. You have to make up for the diff
between your love and your users' needs.

You have to try and minimise the need for determination by finding something
you love to do.

But to find what you love in the first place, you need determination, mainly
in the form of discipline else there's the danger of wasting away from lack of
willingness or being too willful for one's own good.

There's some recursion going on here. Need to think this through to get my
head around it.

------
Shalen
>>> There's a third factor in achievement: how much you like the work.

There is a lot of weight in this statement. My mantra has been "love what you
do and do what you love". It has definitely served me very well and has been a
catalyst for my determination. The other important aspect is your company to
which PG alluded via "ambitious peers". Positive and intellectual energy
around you is a great fuel for determination.

------
araneae
Is there any hope for someone who is extremely willful but not all that
disciplined? :/

~~~
gruseom
Have the discipline to read the whole essay; it explicitly addresses that.

~~~
araneae
Not really. He says it's _possible_ to become more disciplined, but there's no
support for that in the text beyond just the statement. On top of that, there
have been all these HN links about how the traditional ways to make oneself
disciplined only serve to make the willful types less likely to do them.
Nothing kills one's desire to accomplish something more than trying to force
oneself to do it.

All in all it's an unhelpful essay.

------
zaidf
How do you build self-discipline?

Offtopic: my surgeon dad always says medicine is over 50% determination. And
in fact if you are too smart, you will probably quit and opt for a supposedly
more rewarding, less painful profession.

~~~
tome
Out of my own curiosity: why's medicine painful and unrewarding? I would have
thought most non-medics believe it's one of the most rewarding professions to
be in, along with nursing and teaching.

~~~
zaidf
4 years of pain in the ass medicial school 3-5 years of SUPER pain in the ass
residency where you work 15-20hr days for $40,000.

Then depending on your concentration you can make between 150-300K.

Both my dad and my brother(who is in med school) chose medicine because of the
medicial needs in the family than the monetary compensation.

------
jrcole
"...one of the best ways to help a society generally is to create events and
institutions that bring ambitious people together."

in that I'd include the internet and things like social media sites

------
adamc
Worth reading. I don't like the word "determination" because it feels too
heavy to me; too much of grim-faced men in it. But I think PG is at least
close to the right idea.

------
jrcole
I'd say that sense of moral obligation to achieve -- tied in with making
things better or removing an evil -- can play a large part in ambition and
determination.

------
MorrisCallaman
This is extraordinarily insightful (and I admire how Paul's writing is getting
stronger as he gets more and more comfortable with what he thinks).

------
billbarhydt
Every successful entrepreneur who has failed at least once should have his
picture in the dictionary next to the word tenacity!

------
markm
If determination is so important then are founders who've applied to YC
several times given an advantage in future rounds?

------
andyjenn
"determination starts to look like talent." - can determination not be
considered a talent in itself?

------
ptn
> you can definitely learn self-discipline;

How would you go about that?

~~~
a-priori
Same way as any other skill, by pushing your limits until they expand.

------
newacc
Fantastic Pg, one of the best essay ever ....

Loved it when you said "Ambitious people are rare, ... When you take people
like this and put them together with other ambitious people, they bloom like
dying plants given water. Probably most ambitious people are starved for the
sort of encouragement they'd get from ambitious peers, whatever their age."

IMO, Ambitious people are like power engine or say running water - its a old
saying that running water never stops at any hurdles, no mater what - they
pass thru huge mountains and forests - if a ambitious person loves what he/she
is doing then nothing can stop him/her - you can see the fire in their eyes to
succeed, the ambition and love for their work itself becomes determination ...

------
jeremyw
Engergy: exercise! Discipline: honed by time's bitter lessons.

Ambition 1, multiplying with partners: jettisoned. Uh oh. Ambition 2, outlook:
had it, then found the Buddha.

Fuck!

