
Don't call yourself a programmer (2011) - jrslv
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/
======
ffn
Most of what Patrick (the writer) says is decent advice, and yes, it is
important to publish your hobby junk, get feedback, go to meetups, and
generally involve oneself into the community as it is not only helpful to
one's career, but also fun.

That being said, I don't particularly agree on the "don't be modest" comment.
Rather, it really should be "don't be ashamed of what you build" (with the
caveat of no matter how shameful it is), that is, openly show people (both
online and in real life) what you've built, the problems you're encountering,
the solutions you've come up with, etc.

That is, proudly say to them "Hey, check this out, I built X, it's a Y, and I
think it's great... but let me know what you think and don't be afraid of
hurting my feelings."

And whether they reply with "Hey, you're right, it's great! Here's Z dollars
for your startup", or (if you're testing on 4chan as I do) they say "OP, you
suck, why does your site need this much JS? Go die in a fire, you worthless
cuck", be modest and meek with your reply. Thank them for their input,
actually consider the merit of what they're saying, don't get emotionally
flustered or discouraged, and continue bumping your thread / iterating.

So I guess it's this really weird and almost conflicting mindset one has to be
to have a good career experience; one needs to be proud and shameless about
one's self and work, yet modest and meek when it comes to its reception and
feedback.

~~~
AngeloR
The word that you're looking for is balance.

------
napoleond
Discussion around the use of the word "engineer" is unfortunate, and seems to
be missing the point. FWIW, I am an electrical engineer (degree, ring, the
whole enchilada) and have the same conditioned reflex toward hearing the word
"engineer" applied casually, but:

(a) My school didn't offer a software engineering degree. Very few in Canada
do.

(b) The first electrical engineers (and mechanical engineers, and civil
engineers) did not have degrees in that field--they invented it. The field of
software engineering is still very new (especially compared to mech and
civil), so it's not reasonable to expect everyone who practices it to have
formal credentials.

(c) Being a stickler about credentials is a stupid way to behave. Obviously,
engineering credentials are important safeguards in many fields (someone needs
to approve the bridge, airplane part, etc) but software doesn't have the same
safeguards. (Whether it should or not is a completely different discussion.)

(d) None of this is really what the article is about. It's simply saying that
how we describe our profession is important. I work in software full-time
nowadays, and although I still wear the ring I usually describe myself as a
"software developer" when people ask. It doesn't matter though, because the
next question is "what kind of software" and then I focus on the _value_ of
what my software does, relative to the person asking.

~~~
lfowles
Computer engineer here, with the US equivalent of the ring.

I'm also a software developer, but my resume says software engineer, because
that's the name of the position I hold at work.

I'm always a little confused why people are so touchy about the word
"engineer". Here, at least, there is a very clear distinction between the word
"engineer" and engineers who sign off on projects. It's not like there are
thousands of resumes out there purporting to have a Software PE license.

I'd appreciate if someone can clear up any misconceptions I have about PE
licensing, especially as it applies to other countries.

~~~
bkirwi
In Canada, as I understand it, it's illegal to refer to yourself as an
engineer / a position as an engineering position unless you have Real
Engineering Credentials. So a lot of the touchiness is just the usual
sensitivity you find around a legal issue.

~~~
snowwindwaves
it is the term "Professional Engineer" that is protected, <any other
adjective> engineer is fair game. Similarly anyone can call themselves an
accountant, but you can't call yourself a Chartered Accountant unless you are
accredited by that organization.

~~~
y2kenny
Not true.

[http://redmondmag.com/articles/2001/06/20/updatecanadian-
mcs...](http://redmondmag.com/articles/2001/06/20/updatecanadian-mcses-face-
conundrum.aspx)

~~~
ckcheng
Actually the rules around the P.Eng. titles are provincially regulated as
opposed to federally, meaning the rules in Ontario (where apparently the term
"Engineer" is protected) is different than in Alberta (where the protected
term is "Professional Engineer").

That's why in Alberta, Raymond Merhej was sued for using the title "systems
engineer" (as an Apple Canada-certified systems engineer) but the suit was
dismissed in late 2003. In response, the Association of Professional
Engineers, Geologists and Geophysicists of Alberta (APEGGA) said basically
they'll lobby the government to amend the laws to prevent that in the future.
[1] I don't know if such an amendment was ever completed though.

And some people seem to forget that military engineers are also "engineers",
and they've apparently been around since the early 1600s [2]. And locomotive
engineers are also "engineers", and it looks like they don't even need post-
secondary schooling [3].

[1] [http://www.itbusiness.ca/news/it-industry-wins-round-in-
engi...](http://www.itbusiness.ca/news/it-industry-wins-round-in-engineering-
name-debacle/4133)

[2] [http://cmea-agmc.ca/our-heritage-and-our-stories](http://cmea-
agmc.ca/our-heritage-and-our-stories)

[3]
[http://www5.hrsdc.gc.ca/noc/english/noc/2011/Profile.aspx?va...](http://www5.hrsdc.gc.ca/noc/english/noc/2011/Profile.aspx?val=7&val1=7361)

------
FLUX-YOU
>Engineers in particular are usually very highly paid Cost Centers, which sets
MBA’s optimization antennae to twitching.

How?! They delivered the product in the first place! There's a million idea
guys looking for a Woz to their Jobs on Craigslist. How many Woz's do you see
looking for their Jobs? CEOs are the damn cost center with their exobitant
benefit package that still gets handed out even if they sink the company.
Engineers add features and improve the workflow to make it easier to use.
Engineers give Sales its ammo. Because it's not the actual engineer that's
fired from the cannon means they're now a cost center?

I don't understand this shit and from what I've seen on the business side
(especially with how the south does business), I think I'd rather shoot myself
with a cannon before spending 20 years doing what I'm doing now.

~~~
mynameishere
_How?! They delivered the product in the first place_

Yes, at Microsoft, where programmers are profit centers [1]. At GEICO, JP
Morgan, Disney, Pfizer, Alcoa, etc, they are cost centers, on a level with
accountants and HR.

(What is the profit center at GEICO? Actuaries? Salesmen? Warren Buffet's
kindly pig face? Talking lizards?)

[1] Hence this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs)

~~~
georgeecollins
GEICO's profit center is the return on the equity they hold as collateral for
insurance policies.

------
atarian
Personally, I prefer to call myself a developer around my computing peers. To
the average layperson I call myself a programmer. But when I apply to a new
company, I bust out all the fancy engineering titles my past employers have
given me.

But going back to the OT, I think Patrick is really talking about mindset.
Basically don't sell yourself short.

------
Anderkent
Or, you know, don't play their game. You don't need to babble in politics,
work in adversarial environments where 'someone is looking to get you fired',
and deal with all the bullshit in OP. Find a small (10-20 people) software
shop/consultancy, work on interesting problems, write good code, be free of
all that shit.

------
k-mcgrady
Surprised at the elitism evident in many comments here. It's a title. Nothing
more. A lot of people seem to be saying you must complete an engineering
degree to call yourself an engineer - what if I learnt the same skills without
paying extortionate fees and wasting a lot of my time for four years? It
almost seems like people are trying to justify their time and money spent at
University by claiming exclusivity on the engineering title.

At the the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only people who really care
about titles are hiring managers and people trying to get hired. Once you're
in the job, as long as you have the skills nothing else matters.

It seems like the debates around the use of the word hacker or startup. A
waste of time.

~~~
chroem-
What if I read WebMD a lot and have the same skills without paying
extortionate amounts of money for medical school?

"Engineer" is a protected title much like "Medical Doctor," and for good
reason. Outside of web development, when things break people _die_. No matter
what way you spin it, it's impossible to apply that same level of gravity to
apps and websites. Engineering is serious business and the amount of rigorous
preparation and training that engineers must go through to earn their title
matches that. Please think about that next time you're at 50,000 feet on a
transatlantic flight.

~~~
dsacco
You're conflating software engineering with mechanical engineering.

It's not the same as mechanical engineering, or even medical school. You can
absolutely learn all of software engineering, inside and out, without a formal
education.

All the gravity applied to software that peoples' lives depend on? It can be
designed, developed and debugged with or without a formal education.

Almost every argument in this thread bears a similarity to yours, but software
engineering is not the same as traditional engineering. Comparing it to trades
or crafts which demand physical inspection of a skillset and an in person
mentorship is not valid.

EDIT: Upon closer inspection of your comment, it seems as though your position
is that software engineering should not be called engineering at all, because
it does not require the same rigor as the other disciplines you mentioned
during training. If that's the case, I agree with you.

I take issue with people demanding that a title be tied to education when
education is not demonstrably required for the skillset...but I also think
"engineer" isn't necessarily an appropriate term for what "software engineers"
do.

------
bshimmin
Lots of great advice, and featured here at least five times previously. This
submission has the most comments, I think:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766)

------
thedufer
[2011] would be appropriate in the title.

~~~
Ideka
Honest question: Why do people care so much about or like having the year in
the title? In some situations I can see it being needed to prevent big
confusions, but many times I see people put the year in the title when it
doesn't really seem to matter. In this particular case for instance, I don't
see why it would be needed.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Not the parent but the reason I like to see the year in the title in cases
like this is because I've seen it previously. I looked at the title and
thought, "I think I've read that before" but as it was here on HN which is
mostly comprised of new content I thought it might be something new clicked
through. If the year was in the title I would have immediately known I had
read it before and not had to click through and read some of it to find out.

------
ZanyProgrammer
Software engineering-the only Engineering field I know of where people
professionally represent themselves as such without a four year degree with
the word "engineering" in the title-hacking Linux and PHP since you were 15
seems to suffice.

~~~
tptacek
School has very little to do with why software developers shouldn't call
themselves engineers. Virtually nobody in our industry actually practices
"engineering", in part because the industry is structured around staffing and
scheduling incompatible with "engineering".

Having said that, this is a hacker/cracker debate; the ship has sailed on
calling developers (and tech employees) "engineers".

~~~
sbov
How much is this misnaming the fault of companies, how much is this the fault
of schools, and how much of this is the fault of society in general?

From my recollection, Software Engineering became A Thing at schools long
before companies started calling their employees Software Engineers.

My general thinking is that engineering is a more practical application of
science. Colleges don't have a Department of Development. They have a
Department of Engineering. So even though it doesn't quite fit, maybe we can
just stick the degree in the engineering department and obviously call it
Software Engineering.

So schools do this - they create this "engineering" discipline that doesn't
quite fit engineering. It seems obvious that companies and people are going to
then follow.

~~~
jghn
Curious when your recollection starts.

I remember when I was looking at schools (~1990) many schools didn't even have
a separate _computer science_ degree, much less software engineering. Often it
was a sub-degree in the math department. OTOH I'm pretty sure 'software
engineer' as a title was already well under way by then.

~~~
sbov
Around 2003, when I graduated. For what its worth, our computer science
department was a part of the math department when I first went there, but got
moved to the science department halfway through.

Maybe it was just the jobs I was looking at. They all had "programmer" or
"developer" in the title. But it was around when programmer started becoming
bad, and over the next 4 or so years they all started morphing into
"engineer".

------
auxym
I really enjoyed a couple of Patrick's posts on career advice, despite myself
not working directly in the software industry. I was wondering, are any of you
aware of similar bloggers/websites/books/whatever that have similar
information, but more oriented towards other engineers?

------
jszymborski
If people who wrote code stopped calling themselves "artisans" as well, I'd be
quite happy.

------
Killswitch
I call myself a certified web ninja.

~~~
aptwebapps
Has anyone ever asked to see your certificate?

~~~
Killswitch
Only my mom. But she accepted my crayon drawing certificate.

------
rosstex
Welp, guess I'll go be a professor.

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failed_ideas
I would recommend against this in Canada, as it's illegal.

~~~
hnrandom
In what sense is it illegal in Canada?

~~~
ksherlock
"Engineer" is legally protected title in some jurisdictions.

------
xvirk
wasn't it posted 4 years ago ?

------
comrade1
Please don't call yourself an engineer unless you've got the ring.

~~~
s_baby
Why? Do you think there's something exceptional about being an "Engineer"?

~~~
jghn
In some countries there is, and it's a legal thing. It'd be like calling
yourself a doctor when you're not.

~~~
coupdejarnac
It's like this in the USA, too. The only reason why people aren't penalized
for calling themselves engineers when they are not licensed is because they
work under the umbrella of a corporation that grants them an exception to the
rule.

