
Ask HN: Have you ever been hurt by a lack of privacy? - marmot777
I&#x27;ve recently taken an interest in privacy and security. The two concepts seem bound. A lot of people seem freaked out that the government and corporations are monitoring everything. I&#x27;m not saying they shouldn&#x27;t be freaked out. But I&#x27;m wondering specifically why are people freaked out? Are there material ways that this lack of privacy hurts people or is it more anticipation of future harm?
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Red_Tarsius
> _Are there material ways that this lack of privacy hurts people..._

In the safety of your own privacy, you can let go of common expectations.
Being constantly recorded introduces a huge stressor, no matter how virtuous
you are. You _can 't let go_ of past mistakes because other people certainly
won't.

Lack of privacy in overcrowded prisons does kill people, mostly out of
desperation. Convicts get extremely violent when their physical AND mental
space is not respected. I believe privacy to be as important as any other
needs after basic survival. [http://www.npr.org/2016/03/24/470824303/doubling-
up-prisoner...](http://www.npr.org/2016/03/24/470824303/doubling-up-prisoners-
in-solitary-creates-deadly-consequences)

> _...or is it more anticipation of future harm?_

 _" If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I
will find something in them which will hang him."_ You're not human anymore,
you're a walking narrative: a commie under McCarthy, a heretic in Renaissance
Italy, a witch in 1597 Scotland, a queer in the Middle East. Ambitious people
protect their privacy because they know _anything_ can be turned against them.
Authority lives and dies by mud-digging and scandals.

~~~
marmot777
The Cardinal Richelieu quote's chilling. That's got to be one of the most evil
sentences uttered by humans.

~~~
dragonwriter
> That's got to be one of the most evil sentences uttered by humans.

Its a fairly matter-of-fact description of the state of law at the time. (Note
that that statement itself -- though Richelieu himself was in a privileged
enough position to have no concern -- could easily have been an _example_ of
the effect it described, as it suggested both that the King's law was evil in
condemning the honest, and that the King's law was capriciously enforced,
either of which could be lèse-majesté.)

------
sfrailsdev
Yes. First of all people don't record or search information not to use it.
Second of all, surveillance doesn't have to be used to stifle dissent, it's
very existence does so.

More broadly a lack of privacy creates risks for people like rape victims,
people fleeing domestic abuse, the LGBT community, women's rights activists.

I'll pull a few links for the US, but remember, surveillance isn't just an
issue in the US. Think about China and Russia.

[http://time.com/2970573/muslim-american-nsa-
spies/](http://time.com/2970573/muslim-american-nsa-spies/)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_suicide_lette...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_suicide_letter)

[http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/how-
su...](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/how-surveillance-
mutes-dissent-on-the-internet/476955/)

~~~
marmot777
Thank you. I'm no troll looking for an argument as that's a strong case you
make. I figured those who responded would be those who know something about
this topic. I appreciate it.

------
mstolpm
That's a broad field. I might not even know if some data collected about me
leads to a higher price when looking for a product or a flight on the
internet. I don't know what the immigration officer or the police may find on
record about me when checking my data. An insurer might have given me a less
favorable tariff without my knowledge based on some data about my driving
experience, my hobbies or my health data. And so on. It is not that you know
every time you're screwed that you were screwed ... and even less the reason
for this.

On the other hand, somebody collecting data about you always results in an
uncertainty: The data is potentially stored indefinitely and you don't know
where the data might end and who will use it (potentially for his benefit or
against my interests) at any point in the future. There are examples of data
collection even with a good intent that ended catastrophic. Currently some
Turkish citizens and even academics and journalists fear that they might be
arrested just for communicating with the "wrong" people in the past.

At least, you have always to assume that collecting of data, monitoring,
thighter security and reduced privacy are never only "for good", especially
not for the individuals, but more in the interest of government, corporations,
political parties and so on. And you never can go back and demand that your
data is deleted: The biggest problem is that you don't even know who stores
what about you. Combine that with all the data that is collected about you
every day: where is your phone located, whom do you call, mail, chat with,
what internet pages are you visiting, what apps are you using and where, which
photos are you sharing and where and when we're they made, what products are
you looking for, which shops are you visiting, which terms are you googling,
what are you posting to HN .... lots of reasons to freak out if all this data
points fall in the wrong hands.

~~~
mstolpm
To add another example to my own text:

Google for something and Google will optimize future results to your known
interests. That leads to a filter bubble showing you more and more customized
search results. Are you hurt by this? Not knowingly, but perhaps you miss
something important. Do most people know about this? Most likely not, so the
collection of data leads to a skewed world view.

~~~
marmot777
A bubble's not good no. I think my obliviousness to this issue was a sort of
bubble.

------
endswapper
If you start with an introvert, in the context of online privacy, the simple
lack of privacy could be a significant barrier to participation. In a
"connected world" this barrier has the potential to affect major parts, if not
every part, of your life.

For example, avoiding social/professional media, i.e. Facebook, LinkedIn could
have a material negative impact on your life.

~~~
marmot777
Good point. The most prolific and successful users of social media that I
personally know have told me directly that they don't care very much about
privacy. I know one person who seems to have mastered FB who keeps their
profile literally wide open with no privacy controls at all. An introvert
would no sooner do that then they'd start singing and skipping down the
sidewalk every day.

------
marmot777
And as if on queue this article shows up on HN:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/12/turn_off_location_se...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/12/turn_off_location_services_go_ahead_says_google_well_still_track_you/)

------
nikbackm
I don't know.

Plenty of people can look at my data and based on that take actions against my
interests without me ever learning about it.

~~~
marmot777
What would be some examples of that? I'm not doubting that you're correct,
it's just I'm trying to grok this.

~~~
WheelsAtLarge
I have an example, someone I know filed a suit against an employer due to a
back injury. He won and was able to be off work until he was able to work.

Unfortunately, he was never able to get a full time job again. He worked the
rest of his career at a temporary agency. He was constantly close to getting a
job but never got it.

Many years later it was discovered that the most likely reason he never got a
job was likely because during the background search they found the suit and no
company wants to deal with someone that they felt had a possibility of suing.

This was in the 90's. Now it's so much easier to find that info. and more. But
you would never know about it and how it effect us.

~~~
marmot777
Perfect example. Ruined the guy's life.

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whamlastxmas
Yes. I self censor tremendously due to the amount of online tracking these
days. Even with VPNs, anonymous search engines, and tight browser controls,
it's fairly easy to identify people.

~~~
marmot777
Why do you self censor. I could say I'm going to spark up a bowl of good weed
right now. So what? You know what I mean. Do those that monitor care about
that sort of stuff or are they looking for patterns they judge to be truly
dangerous as in a plot. BTW, I'm partly playing the devil's advocate here and
realize this is a bit weak. If I had the guts to really say something I'd say
Ayahuasca. There you go. Should I be freaked as fuck now? Saying the weed was
an easy one since I live Oregon but Ayahuasca. Oh shit, I said it again. Fuck.
I have no privacy. And I don't have any Ayahuasca but the point is will my
post attract any attention? Does anyone give a shit about that when they are
watching or do they have their priorities right, that is, national security. I
made the leap and assumed that this was sort of the NSA you're referring to
though you could have meant your company monitoring, google for ads, etc.

------
marmot777
I'm puzzled why this interest in the topic hit me all at once like a ton of
bricks, whereas 6-months ago I didn't think much about it at all. For me, it's
been binary. I'm doing some catch up. :-)

