
How to get a job after you've been rejected - karenxcheng
http://www.karenx.com/blog/how-to-get-a-job-after-youve-been-rejected/
======
groby_b
I'm going to state an uncomfortable truth. As somebody who has seen more than
a few horrible interview failures - how about you put in a 100 hours of work
_before_ you come to the interview?

Not for the company, but for yourself. And not doing fancy resumes with songs
and pictures, but learning the basics of what you're actually doing? Because
I'm fairly certain that most interview rejections are due to the fact that
your qualifications are insufficient, not because your resume wasn't fun
enough.

~~~
jowiar
I see far more failure by way of deeming oneself unqualified and not applying
than I do by way of train wreck interviews.

For me, job applications are like college applications - the best attitude is
not to get my heart committed to anything outside my control, and not to take
anything as a statement about who I am, and always will be, but rather on
what, at a particular point in time, I can offer a particular person. I've had
my ass handed to me in an interview before - It was a great experience - I
learned what I needed to get better at to get the type of position I wanted,
and through applications, failures, and learning, I eventually found a great
position.

~~~
collyw
The way most job descriptions are - listing 5 languages with at least 3 years
experience, its not a surprise that people deem themselves unqualified.

(As a side note I get to hire someone after Christmas,and have no idea how to
word the ad. It will be all round work, with a fair bit of Python / Django,
but I feel that these are fairly niche and will limit my choices if I ask for
these specifically.)

------
bonemachine
_So I put in my 100 hours. I made a custom resume that I illustrated with
little Evernote-style animals. I got out my guitar and sang a song about why I
wanted to work there. I designed a custom iPhone app for them._

Eww. Talk about trying way too hard.

~~~
stevenp
Seriously? It's not trying too hard at all.

If there's a job you really want and you're really passionate about getting it
no matter what, you should do anything in your power to try to get it. If you
fail, you can at least say that you tried as hard as you could and it just
didn't work out.

~~~
bonemachine
_If there 's a job you really want.. you should do anything in your power to
try to get it._

No really, you shouldn't. For the sake of your long-term self-esteem &
professional stature, what you should be looking for is a _2-way street._

Which is not to say you should apply for companies that are hard to get into,
or for which get tons of applicants that you'll have to stand out against --
of course you should. And of course you should do your homework -- look into
their business plan, the profiles of people they've hired (and who are likely
to interview you), etc.

But you shouldn't _ever_ have to feel that you have to bend over backwards to
get their attention. The basic point is that ultimately what you're after is a
relationship where they need you as much _if not more_ than you need them.

And to get to that point, you have to head off any inkling in their mind that
you're "chasing after them." Not that you should be doing the opposite (i.e.
playing hard to get). But one way or another, you need to enter into the
courting process with a rock-solid sense of self-assurance that -- whatever
your deltas (+/-) against their ideal profile/skillset -- you're bringing
something _very_ valuable to the table, namely, _yourself_. And that it should
be _obvious_ to them that stand out against the pack, and -- while you may not
end up being their first or final pick -- you clearly deserve front-line
consideration. Without having to jump up and down, wave your arms, or make
mixtapes for them, etc.

Analogies to dating being of course more than appropriate here.

~~~
pedalpete
There is nothing wrong with working hard to get their attention. It isn't a
2-way street until you've already proven yourself, that's when the
relationship become symbiotic.

The dating analogies don't apply.

~~~
bonemachine
The point is that as with dating, there's a penalty (in some cases fatal) that
comes with trying too hard -- you just come off as cloying and desperate. The
OP clearly exceeded that threshold, by leaps and bounds.

~~~
zeidrich
Assuming you put a decent effort into the process prior to applying:

The point is, at this point you've already been told no. The worst case
scenario is that you're told "Still no."

Depending on what it is you do to impress them, that can be used in other
scenarios. You make some marketing plan or a brochure or redo a website? Stick
it in your back pocket and save it again for later.

So you look desperate? So what? Either they say no, in which case apart from
the extra work you've done, you're no further behind, or they say yes and
think you're desperate, but you have the job.

~~~
overgryphon
How someone conducts themselves in response to rejection can affect future
opportunities.

It isn't uncommon to be reject a candidate for one job, but approach them
about a different job that better fits their skillset. This can happen even
year or two down the road if that candidate left a good impression with a
senior person who hires people regularly.

Worst case scenario is that not only are you rejected for that job, but are
considered not hirable for other positions in the future. Trying to prove
someone wrong after they have rejected you for a position indicates that you
do not respect their decision, and feel entitled to reconsideration after they
already made their choice clear. It's disrespectful.

Keep your dignity, and maybe that job rejection turns into a valuable
opportunity down the road.

------
venus
WTF? But she never got a job after being rejected! She managed to get a failed
college application reversed with her song and dance act, and that's it. When
she tries that on a real job, it fails, and she goes on and rationalises that
as being for the best. Huh?

This post has no point at all. And as someone who does his fair share of
hiring, it is terrible advice anyway. If you really, really want another
chance, just ask. I'll usually give someone a second shot if they seem to
really want it, and give them an opportunity to explain why I was wrong the
first time.

~~~
ivv
Very true. Of the many people who I interviewed and who ended up without an
offer, not one has asked for a second shot, which would likely have been
granted. It's unfortunate, because not every winning candidate wins by a
landslide.

~~~
ch4s3
Very interesting. I once felt an interview starting to go poorly in the final
stage and tried something similarly unexpected. I asked, " Honestly, what
reservations do you have about hiring me." The interviewer answered, and I
rebutted the three concerns. I started the next week, and it was a disaster.
Then I decided to become a programmer, it was for the best.

Aren't anecdotes fun?

------
probablyfiction
Job searching must be a nightmare if every application requires 100 hours of
effort.

~~~
karenxcheng
Lots of people have spent more than 100 hours on their job search, spread
across hundreds of companies. The idea is - what if you focused on the ones
you really want, and put more effort into those?

~~~
bicknergseng
I'd wager this is ~90% of the problem with the modern day employment market.
Monster et al made it too easy to apply for a job. Now every position gets
1000 applicants and every applicant applies for 100 jobs. The applicant thinks
the more they apply, the better their chances. The employer thinks there is a
cookie cutter, definition employee out there that will fit 110%, be
overqualified, and willing to work for less because the applicant won't get
any of the other 100 jobs they shotgunned. The employer passes on applicant
after applicant and waits until they find the 10x employee. The applicants
move on to their next 100 cover letters.

~~~
djhworld
Monster and other job listing sites are mostly just recruitment agency spam
trying to get someone to bite. Well at least in the IT industry anyway.

Actually that's probably the symptom of what you're describing, companies no
longer manage recruitment internally anymore, instead throwing the
responsibility to the hyenas snapping below and hoping they can buffer out
most of the shit

------
Skywing
I think that the over all sentiment of this post is correct - hard work can
pay off, and sometimes not in how you originally expected.

I also recently applied to a company, Blizzard Entertainment in Austin, that I
have wanted to work for since 1999. In 1999 I didn't program, but playing
their games got me into programming (through reverse engineering the games)
and I have wanted to work there ever since. I applied for internships through
the years, and then after school I started applying for full time positions. I
never once even got a response, other than the automated rejection emails that
come 2-3 months later. A few months ago they actually called me though, and I
had the opportunity to go through the interview process for a .NET position. I
sailed through the technical phone interview and was given a take home project
to work on, for a week. It had some requirements that involved some design
patterns that I'd never used before, but I easily put in 60+ hours on the
project after getting home from my current job. After seeing that submission
though, they decided to not continue with the interview. It's hard being
rejected by a company that you've dreamed of working for for so long,
especially when the rejection was after they looking at my code. As a coder,
that code is all I am evaluated by during that phase of the project, so it's
rough. I couldn't let it end there though. I researched the design patterns
requested and completely re-wrote the project. In retrospect, my 2nd attempt
was much better than my first. I don't know if the developers I spoke with,
from Austin, saw my 2nd attempt or not, because I was going through a
recruiter of theirs from CA. The recruiter basically just cut off all
communication, and I got no feedback as to what I could have improved on.

But, I didn't stop there! That was basically 2 rejections. I decided to go
around the recruiter and drafted up an email to the developers here in Austin
- all I asked for was feedback on my code so that I could improve and apply in
the future. I didn't have any of their emails, but I had their names. I sent
the email to various combinations of their name and magically one went
through. The guy responded literally 10 minutes later. He seemed open to
helping but was busy (this was happening during thanksgiving and blizzcon, so
it was definitely busy for them). We emailed back and forth several times but
each time he kept forgetting to respond, so I just let it go. I didn't want to
come off as pushy or annoying and ruin any future chances at the job.

No real moral to this, other than I kept trying and ended up with a real
developer's email here in Austin. Maybe next time around he'll remember me.

~~~
jigneshg
Skywing,

Thank you very much for sharing your experience and hard work for getting job
in your dream company. I can understand the situation and moral after 2
rejection but i really appreciate your effort for working hard to achieve your
dream.

You really put great example for other readers here looking for job and got
rejection. We should always think positive and work on our weaknesses to get
our dream job.

Thanks

------
benjaminwootton
You can tell it's a good job market because being rejected for a job nowadays
wouldn't feel like a big deal in the slightest.

It would simply be onto the next one and you'll probably have an offer for
something equally good or better within the week!

------
jelloPuddin
Getting rejected from Palantir in late August was probably the best thing that
could've happened to me. It was the first company that I interviewed at for a
full time roll and it made me realize I wasn't ready. I spent the next 8 weeks
coding for three hours a day and preparing for interviews. Ended up landing a
great job that I'd take over Palantir any day.

~~~
ra3
>I spent the next 8 weeks coding for three hours a day and preparing for
interviews.

what were you doing the rest of the working day?

~~~
jelloPuddin
I'm still in college. I'd wake up at 6, eat and do some coding problems, go to
class, come home, do homework, do phone interviews, code till midnight, and go
to sleep.

------
mpeg
It'd be nice to know what the author of the post got out of trying even harder
(!!) and joining Exec that way. Are we talking nice experience, multiple
promotions, million-dollar exit, or other stuff?

I, honestly, don't try hard at all for interviews. The only work I put in is
in doing some quick research on the company and the people I will be meeting,
but even that is not so important (because it's usually better to hear from
them directly)

I have had some very good success on face-to-face interviews like that, and it
makes things equal between applicant and company; if a person has put in hours
of work in creating something specifically for that interview, is he desperate
for a job? is he trying to make up for a lack of talent? I don't think it's
such a positive thing as this article would lead one to believe.

------
yarou
I used to believe a long time ago (when I was younger) that anything is
possible -- so long as you work hard. But the reality is it's more complicated
than that. Some people have pure talent; no matter how hard you work, you can
never achieve their level of talent in a lifetime. Some people have access to
the proper network effects, i.e. genetic lottery. It all comes down to
analyzing your situation and making the best out of it. Who cares about some
shitty programming job that's 9-5? That's overrated. Build something you're
passionate about, that you love to show others. It can be something simple at
first, but slowly you'll gain insight into what you really want to do.

~~~
samtp
I think anything is possible as long as you're open to anything. Putting your
head down and plowing ahead can only get you so far in most circumstances. The
key is to work hard while continuing to look around and recognize the diverse
opportunities around you.

So many people get caught up on a single scenario as their end goal, rather
than understanding that there are many possibilities that you don't even know
about right now, that would bring you greater happiness than the single ideal
that they hold so dear.

------
dylandrop
Ok, sorry, but 100 hours to apply to a single job is just silly. There are
tons of factors that you could make you an unfit candidate for that position
that you couldn't possibly know about, and even putting a solid year of work
into a resume won't help you get around those problems.

"So I put in my 100 hours. I made a custom resume that I illustrated with
little Evernote-style animals. I got out my guitar and sang a song about why I
wanted to work there. I designed a custom iPhone app for them."

Perhaps they were a little creeped out by someone singing a song to them on
YouTube without knowing them at all? This just gives me weird vibes... and
furthermore demonstrates nothing of clear value to being a designer
(presumably) at Evernote. Those 100 hours would have been better spent honing
skills or learning a new one.

I think you should pump the brakes a little on your job application strategy.
Most of the time, a well-crafted, personal email and solid resume is the best
way to go. A bunch of the time not being hired is as simple as "they found
another person first", "you were one of 100 resumes and they accidentally
skipped yours", or "they were looking for a person who would be more adept as
skill y whereas you're best at skill x". That's why you should concentrate on
a couple companies you'd like to work at, and not be devastated if the most
likely situation happens (not being picked).

------
castillowl
At a minimum, thanks for the reminder about keeping failure in perspective. It
is so easy to fall into failure aversion mode and not even realize it can hold
you back.

------
speakme
This was a great read, especially as our startup gets closer to launch and we
need to keep in mind both the value of rejection, and the philosophy of always
trying as hard as we possibly can. The 100 hours specifically can be debated
for job applications and etc., but the idea behind it is hard to argue
against.

------
sbuccini
I see you didn't get into YC. How did you apply this technique to that
process? If you didn't, why not?

~~~
karenxcheng
Good question. We thought about what we should do after YC.

Post rejection, we waited a few weeks until we had some pretty good traction
stats, and then sent an email to PG asking they reconsider us. We got an email
back saying they don't change their decisions because they wouldn't be able to
scale that way.

In this case, we didn't think the best thing was to do flashy techniques,
based on what we've heard about PG. Depending on where our startup is, we may
apply again next batch. We're applying to other incubators right now too.

~~~
ra3
so what you're saying is your "technique" doesn't even work for you

~~~
karenxcheng
That's right, it doesn't always work. (See the second half of the article,
"100 hours doesn't always work")

~~~
ivanplenty
There's a subtlety -- in "100 hours does't always work" you describe how
simply putting the time in isn't sufficient to get the outcome. You still
tried, and you (unfortunately) failed. In the case of YC, it seems that you
chose not to try (though you likely already spent 100 hours for the original
interview process, right?).

I think you may want to write a blog post about _that_ : How do you choose
which project to invest 100 units into? And, how do you measure the success of
that decision both in the short- and long-terms?

For example, do you think the Evernote application had long-run benefits? Did
it help you in getting a different job down the road? Those are the kind of
stories I think would be interesting to connect to the give it 100 project.

Best of luck on the endeavor!

------
vitd
I've got 2 stories which may or may not contradict this idea:

1) I interviewed a candidate for a junior position. He seemed qualified and
came with a recommendation from someone I trust. But during the interview with
one of the managers in our group, he indicated that something on his resume
was not accurate. He didn't directly say that, and he tried to squirm around
it by saying he really meant it in this way, etc. etc. The manager took this
as a big red flag that this person was not trustworthy or at least not a good
match for our group. He was later told he didn't get the position. At that
point he started emailing me constantly asking what he could do to get in our
good graces. I had to tell him that since I wasn't the hiring manager there
was nothing I could do, and that he had really blown it because it basically
looked like he was lying during his interview. Now every time there's an
opening in our group he emails me looking to apply for the position. This has
made me 10x less likely to consider him in the future. (Granted, he didn't do
his "100 hours".) But being a pest is not going to get you anywhere. Just suck
it up and move on. (I wish someone had taught me how to do that when I was
younger. I often got the advice, but wasn't able to implement it, much to my
detriment.)

2) At an earlier job, we had a candidate apply. I thought he was pretty good,
but the boss was unimpressed. During the interview I asked him if he'd read
some programming books that I had found useful. He hadn't heard of them. The
boss rejected him and we hired someone else. A year later we had another
position. He applied again, and this time he told me he had read the books and
explained how he had put some of the ideas into practice. He didn't pester us
for a job and he didn't act like a psycho or a douche. He just did the hard
work of learning what he was missing. We hired him. Later I left that job and
started my own company and hired him again. He was a good employee and good at
what he did.

I can't imagine trying to work with the guy from #1 above on a daily basis
after seeing him be so persistent and annoying. I would definitely not hire #1
even if he were the most qualified candidate because of how annoying his
persistence was.

------
mbesto
> _By rejecting me at first, college admissions taught me the most valuable
> lesson of my life. It doesn’t matter if you’re told no. Everything’s
> negotiable._

I've learned to appreciate this over the years. However, I think this is very
much an _American thing_. I lived for 4 years in Europe and people are much
more willing to bend the rules in America, whereas people in Europe tend to
"follow the rules". And thus, the people that support the systems are less
willing to bend. Any European natives agree?

~~~
Morgawr
As an Italian, I don't agree. But that's for Italy, we're corrupt and we
always bend rules.

Currently living in The Netherlands and things are very different here. Also
Belgians and Germans are very strict, from what I heard.

Europe in itself is far too broad. We may be very small land-wise but
culturally-wise we can be very different between each other. Can't say for
sure, really.

~~~
ahomescu1
> As an Italian, I don't agree. But that's for Italy, we're corrupt and we
> always bend rules.

Hah, that made me chuckle. I realize you're being serious, but it seems funny.
(disclaimer: I'm Romanian, things are similar for us).

------
glasshouses
How does this get on here?

Why is it acceptable to use HN as a platform for shameless self-promotion? And
if it absolutely has to be why can't it at least be worthwhile?

HN's filter needs to be overhauled. Particularly any post from a site with the
same name as the poster. Those are rarely good.

