
Norwegian Air cancels order for 97 Boeing aircraft, sues Boeing - cockpitherald
https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/06/30/norwegian-air-cancels-order-for-97-boeing-aircraft-sues-boeing/
======
walkingolof
BOC Aviation, controlled by the Chinese state, is now a majority owner of
Norwegian, BOC have previously canceled 737 Max orders.

[https://www.thelocal.no/20200520/china-become-norwegians-
big...](https://www.thelocal.no/20200520/china-become-norwegians-biggest-
owner-after-debt-swap)

~~~
tankenmate
Interesting. Anyone have any idea if this will lead to a Comac C919 order? [0]
Just remembered, this would have to pass the EASA certification at a minimum,
if that happens or they start pushing for it it might be an indicator. Belt
and Road no doubt, and quite possibly seeking to capitalise on the duopoly
having a hard time. May lead to EU / US shoring up their respective
industries. Maybe also burying their WTO hatchets?

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_C919](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_C919)

[EDIT] asked further questions

~~~
kn0where
Zero reason for a Comac order when there’s tons of used A320s and 737s sitting
around up for sale or lease.

------
blinding-streak
The entire airline industry (and travel as a whole) is under incredible stress
right now. Many airlines have already gone bankrupt [1], and most others are
near the brink. I don't think there's going to be any shortage of lawsuits
going forward.

[1] [https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-airlines-that-
fa...](https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-airlines-that-failed-
bankrupt-covid19-pandemic-2020-3)

~~~
tyingq
Most of the US airlines took the COVID bailout bill money. That bill required
them to maintain specific service, and avoid layoffs through the end of
September. Expect some chaotic changes in October.

~~~
throw51319
Do you think the US gov won't renew those?

~~~
tyingq
I suspect several of the airlines are now itching to do layoffs. It's hard to
sustain the same number of employees when the traveler numbers are down so
badly. They are all losing money despite the bailout.

~~~
throw51319
True. I think this comes down to: will the US gov just continually print money
while there is a slowdown from both top down lockdown and also people just
trying to stay safe.

------
redleggedfrog
I wonder who is going to have the guts to kill the 737 Max for good. It's
never going to fly with airline and passengers ever again,

~~~
LatteLazy
Or just rebrand it.

I'm sort of amazed they haven't done that already...

~~~
BitwiseFool
I don't know about you, but I never want to fly on a 737 MAX no matter what
they rename it. Every time I have booked a ticket online the website tells me
what kind of aircraft I would be flying on.

~~~
dom96
As nice as this info is, is there any actual guarantee that it is valid? I
wouldn't be surprised if airlines switch planes around all the time, so by the
time you check in you may be flying a MAX plane (and possibly not even be
aware).

~~~
mstade
This is anecdotal, but I've never once out of hundreds of flights experienced
what you're describing. Sure, replacement flights when things got cancelled
may have been on a different aircraft, but then it's a different flight
altogether so not particularly surprising. I'd be curious to know if under
normal circumstances they ever fly a plane other than the one listed, I have
no idea.

Edit: to clarify a bit, I know this because I'm a nerd and sometimes pick
flights specifically because of the type of plane used. I quite enjoyed the
A380. :o)

~~~
txcwpalpha
It doesn't happen on something like an A380 (especially since there isn't
exactly any other plane type to switch to from an A380 without huge issues),
but it's pretty common on smaller jets, especially in the A320 family or 737
family where they are nearly-identically-sized jets that can be swapped out
easily.

If you're scheduled to fly on a 737-800 but there's a problem with the jet,
they might swap it out for a 737-400 (which is pretty much just an older
generation of the -800, similar to how the -800 is an older generation of the
MAX 8) and it would go completely unnoticed by almost every passenger. That
happens less often nowadays that most (all?) of the -400s are retired, but I
would expect it to start happening again once the MAXs return to service and
they are being deployed side-by-side with the NGs.

~~~
kiwijamo
Yep. I've booked several flights originally scheduled to be operated by a
737-300 or a 737-400 and had it swapped out for the other on the day (as the
airline operated a mixed fleet with both types regularly swapped around to
better match demand and/or respond to maintenance issues). Also had a 757
swapped out for a 320 a few weeks prior to the flight. Or a 777-300 swapped
out for a 777-200 several days before the flight. Even a 787 was swapped out
for a 330. I suspect some of the changes are demand driven e.g. swapping to a
smaller or bigger aircraft. I have observed this cross multiple airlines:
Qantas, Air NZ, British Airways, China Southernm etc. Quite common especially
for mixed fleet airlines.

------
jimbob45
Boeing has terrible management and deserves to go under for the 737 Max fiasco
but...

...it seems like maybe Norwegian Air is reeling from coronavirus-induced low
demand and is trying to escape its responsibilities.

~~~
steffan
> Boeing has terrible management and deserves to go under for the 737 Max
> fiasco

This seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Boeing
employees _145,000_ people. You're advocating making the equivalent of a small
city jobless based on the actions of a very small contingent.

Additionally, aerospace is a capital intensive business. To give up Boeing
would mean the likely-permanent loss of sophisticated manufacturing
capabilities in the United States.

Nobody is starting a new aircraft manufacturer on AWS using Javascript. It
would take tens of billions of dollars to even begin to attempt to re-create a
company with Boeing's capabilities.

~~~
jellicle
> You're advocating making the equivalent of a small city jobless based on the
> actions of a very small contingent.

No one has ever advocated that every person at Boeing be fired and that's not
what happens in large corporate bankruptcies. So no, that's not what the other
poster was advocating.

In general, I've seen people advocating that Boeing's shareholders be wiped
out, senior management fired and the company be rebooted with a thorough
dedication towards "safety first" as opposed to "short-term profits first".

~~~
mprovost
Aren't most "shareholders" actually index funds or pensions at this point? The
effects of wiping out such a large chunk of stock all at once would be felt
pretty widely.

~~~
fgonzag
They shouldn't have invested in a badly managed company then.

As long as investors don't feel their moral Hazzard, companies will keep doing
the same things. Because investors will keep investing in them because they'll
get bailed out at the end.

Why wouldn't you invest in boeing if you know they are going to prioritize
short term profits (good for you) and as soon as that comes back to bite the
company it's going to be bailed out.

And if you keep bailing them out, it's in the companies best interest to
prioritize short term profits over long term consequences, because that's
what's best for investors.

Government bailouts pervert the market in extreme ways (you are essentially
subsidizing risk), and it's the very reason why too big to fail companies keep
doing the stuff they do.

The point of the "market" is leaving the pricing to investors, if they fail to
price the company correctly then it's their loss, just like it's their win
when the stock goes up.

The best option for too big to fail businesses failing is to buy 100% of it's
shares when it declares bankruptcy (at close to $0), fire all top level
management and the board, inject the cash needed and fix the companies culture
to a prdoduct focused instead of finance focused (that's why the people
rescued it), then IPO once it's numbers are in the green (or give one share to
every tax paying resident)

------
exabrial
Reading between the lines of hype, this is the most important fact in the
article:

> [Norwegian Air] delayed general shareholders meeting on Tuesday and on the
> same day Boeing started re-certification tests for MAX aircraft

------
donut2d
There was recent news(April/March) about Norwegian actually running extremely
low on cash to a point of bankruptcy and the airline laid off like 90% of
their workforce due to Covid19 pandemic and lack of flights/demand.

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
I really hope this doesn’t happen - Norwegian is the best low cost long haul
airline out there. Round trip AUS-LGW tickets can be found for sub $500 on
Norwegian. The premium is also very competitive for the same flight
($800-1200) when competitors doing similar route (BA) charge more than double
that, and the service certainly isn’t doubled. They are also flying very new
planes and as such are a much nicer experience. There are always plugs under
the seats, IFE is modern and available on every seat. Also the way they handle
seat service is much more convenient, you order and pay through the IFE
console instead of having to wait for the cart to come around and as such you
have complete service all the way though the flight.

Even on domestic flights in Europe they are a pretty reasonable experience,
much better than Ryanair and Easyjet at least. They are often priced about
10-20% more expensive than Ryanair and Easyjet when you probably get double
the comfort and service and half the annoyances. I might sound like a shill
for Norwegian but I think they really fill the Southwest niche here - a
decently low cost (but not lowest) airline that doesn’t treat you or it’s
employees like shit.

That’s not to say they are without flaws either. I and others have had some
sketchy times where Norwegian has fought awarding the EU mandated
reimbursement for delayed/cancelled flights. But no other international
airline in Europe straddles the line between legacy carrier level of service
and barebones low-cost as well as Norwegian.

~~~
ConceitedCode
The article talks about the airline focusing on shorter routes and cutting the
longer routes that they were losing money on. Even if the airline doesn't go
through bankruptcy the long haul routes at the same price will probably no
longer be around.

"However, with the scheduled flights gradually resuming, the airline is
restructuring its fleet and focusing on short- and medium-range destinations.
Europe’s fourth-largest low-cost carrier will likely completely discontinue
the long-haul flights that sank the company into debt."

~~~
fredsters_s
it's too bad really, the long-haul price competition they created on their
routes was fantastic

------
niffydroid
Aerospace is taking a massive hit, in the UK we've seen redundancies and are
seeing more today.

------
TheJoeMan
Imagine getting to break your contract and then sue to try to get your initial
deposit back. Isn't that the whole point of a deposit?

~~~
koolba
Not necessarily. A refundable deposit is not unheard of. It's a good way to
verify that your customer's are truly interested and at least partially
capable of paying for the final product.

For example, Tesla's deposit is refundable:
[https://www.tesla.com/support/model-3-reservation-
deposit](https://www.tesla.com/support/model-3-reservation-deposit)

~~~
blinding-streak
Except that in practice, getting your refund back is not easy at all. Tesla
marketing and Tesla reality are often far apart.

[https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/tesla-refund-and-return-
prob...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/tesla-refund-and-return-problems-
detailed.html)

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-20/tesla-
wou...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-20/tesla-would-be-
customers-grouse-as-deposit-refunds-take-months)

[https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/deposit-
refund-3](https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/deposit-refund-3)

~~~
toomuchtodo
Tesla has gotten better. A friend had their Solar Roof deposit returned within
a week after Tesla cancelled their order.

Will it be just as easy if Cybertruck doesn't live up to the hype? I'll report
back.

~~~
blinding-streak
That is indeed a good sign, and might have a positive effect on people's
willingness to make a deposit in the first place.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Agreed. Deposits signal intent to both Tesla and the capital markets they rely
on, but you have to treat the customer relationship with respect to not poison
the well.

