
Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers - Varqu
https://swissdevjobs.ch/blog/switzerland-vs-silicon-valley
======
greatgib
__Bullshit alert __They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous
rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you
joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV.

Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you
can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF
" 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily earn over 100,000 CHF (1
CHF is around 1 USD) "

So, that means that we can calculate your rent there to be between 30% to 48%.
But I guess, just because it is in Switzerland, it should not be outrageous?

~~~
cactus2093
Yeah this article is interesting. Cost of housing is basically being described
as as high as the Bay Area, but the salaries sound quite a bit lower. Junior
devs in SF are making maybe $110-130k, vs 60-90 that the article claims in
switzerland. Senior devs are making maybe $180-220k, plus more in stock
options/RSUs (which despite the negative reaction to them here on HN, actually
do often turn into real money at least at unicorns or public companies) vs
$120k+ mentioned in the article.

More generally I've been wondering about this and can't figure it out, why are
software engineer salaries in Europe are so much lower than the US? From what
I can tell, Switzerland is just about the highest you'll see in Europe, and is
still lower than the biggest US tech hubs. In other big metropolitan areas
(Paris, London, etc.), the cost of living is at least a bit lower, but they're
still major cities and not _that_ cheap. And there salaries for engineers are
even lower. As another concrete data point I was looking through the gitlab
location adjustments for remote workers that they have released publicly[0],
and the floor for anywhere in the US, meaning even the most inexpensive,
remote parts in the country, is 63.3% of the baseline SF salary. Any mid-tier
city will be higher than that, like 75% of the SF salaries. But Paris only
pays 56.5% of the SF baseline. Why is that?

[0] [https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-
com/blob/master/dat...](https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-
com/blob/master/data/location_factors.yml)

~~~
scarejunba
A hypothesis I've not tested: salaries are adjusted for risk. European
countries have strong labour protections so hiring parties must take on hires
at high risk if they don't perform (can't fire them easily). Initial evidence
for hypothesis: contractors and freelancers working locally in these countries
still have high incomes.

~~~
alexis_fr
In all honesty, skills could be another factor. Although we have many
extremely competent people, the general job market in France for example
doesn’t require very advanced technical skills. I compare to Sydney where,
with 4 years experience in France and with credentials, I wasn’t up to the
game. Sydney people, for example, are extremely skilled.

So we must not throw away the skills factor, the ability of employees to build
an extremely successful company, their motivations, their awareness of new
business practices, although it is very difficult to measure it. Perhaps
France is ahead (after all, a lot of Linux is European, along with DailyMotion
and others), perhaps it is not (...after all, DailyMotion only got the second
seat and is now dwarfed by Youtube).

------
lukeqsee
I'm an American expat in Switzerland working as an independent software
developer and startup founder. I can agree with a lot of the points listed in
the article, but they apply universally to almost all jobs (not just to
software developers).

I would raise a few points it doesn't mention:

\- Negatively, it is _much_ harder to find meetups close to you that apply to
you. Unless you're based in Zürich (the tech hub of the region), expect any
meetups to be irregular and if you don't go to the next one, it might be the
last one.

\- Positively, I work from home. I have four providers I could get 1Gbps
symmetrical, unmetered, business-class FTTH for less than 100,- CHF / month.
It's hard to go wrong with that.

\- Positively, the outdoor culture in much of the country really helps you get
out of your chair and outdoors. The natural beauty doesn't hurt. :-)

Happy to answer any more questions if you have them—or I'm more than happy to
connect if you're also in Switzerland!

~~~
victor106
> Positively, I work from home. I have four providers I could get 1Gbps
> symmetrical, unmetered, business-class FTTH for less than 100,- CHF / month.
> It's hard to go wrong with that.

I pay 79.99 USD a month for Verizon Fios 1 gbps in nyc. That is before a
$200.00 credit. Fios is FTTH. That’s a good 20-25% discount to what you pay in
Switzerland.

Plus I heard from several colleagues and friends who are people of color that
they faced more racism in Switzerland (and a few European countries) than in
the US. I know this is subjective and everyone’s experience is different. But
you can’t ignore the fact that the CEO’s of two of the largest tech companies
in the US are Indians. I don’t know of any large European companies that are
being run by people of color. Maybe they are but I just don’t know.

~~~
noelsusman
I know a Swiss expat living in America who moved here for that exact reason.
His wife is Cuban, and they said they felt more at home and accepted in the US
after a few months than they did after 10 years of living in Switzerland. They
both loved Switzerland, but they cited the insular culture as the primary
reason for leaving. His wife just couldn't handle it anymore.

~~~
sails
> the insular culture

Anecdotally, this is the reason most people struggle as expats in CH.

~~~
monaghanboy
Do / can expats just hang out with each other?

~~~
sails
Yes, out of necessity I gather. Seemingly typical of most foreign countries
with strong expat presence, but Swiss are notoriously insular.

------
gregkerzhner
After reading this article, here is my advice to a developer in the Bay Area

1\. Definitely don't move to Switzerland. Your cost of living will be very
similar, you will have to work more than 40 hours a week, and your salary will
go down.

2\. Move literally anywhere else in the USA. I live in Boulder, Colorado and
its awesome. Mountains and trails out my door with a great city scene as well.
People snob at Boulder because its getting expensive, but you can still rent a
1 bedroom for 1300, and get a room in a house for $800. Google, Twitter and
Uber are here if you want FAANG level compensation, as well as a bunch of
other small companies.

3\. Or better yet, get a remote job and move to somewhere even cheaper. I work
remotely and it was really hard not to move to Bend, Oregon. I could have
bought a nice house there for what I paid for my small townhome in Boulder.
The only reason I didn't do it is because I am a fanatic rock climber and the
climbing around Boulder is better.

One thing I have found about working remotely is that its pretty easy to work
35 hours a week and produce the same output as a full time, in office
employee. Less distractions and in-office chitchat, and more working time. In
practice this means that you can wake up at 7:30, make a coffee, be online at
8am, and then be free by 3pm. The Swiss 9 to 6 is a hard sell with this
lifestyle.

~~~
0xffff2
>One thing I have found about working remotely is that its pretty easy to work
35 hours a week and produce the same output as a full time, in office
employee. Less distractions and in-office chitchat, and more working time. In
practice this means that you can wake up at 7:30, make a coffee, be online at
8am, and then be free by 3pm

This is _highly_ individual. My company lets me work remote whenever and as
much as I want. I still spend the vast majority of my time in the office
because I'm far less productive when working from home.

~~~
armandososa
I've been working remotely for twelve years now and I think that today I
wouldn't be able to write a single line of code in a crowded space with other
people.

~~~
0xffff2
Me neither, which is why I refuse to work for a company with that kind of work
environment. So far, my personal experience is office>cubicle>home. If I ever
do find myself unfortunate enough to be forced to take an open office job, I
expect it will rank below working from home.

------
madhadron
I used to live in Switzerland, so maybe we can mention some of the downsides.

It's racist. Really racist. If you're white, no one's going to hassle you to
see your papers. If you're not, keep them with you. Expect to meet hostility
in shops and markets and get quoted different prices than white people. Those
25% immigrants the article mentions? Mostly European, and many of those aren't
immigrants. They were born and raised in Switzerland, but are still considered
immigrants.

It's rigid. I'm not sure I want my children going to school in a system where
using the wrong color pen is penalized comparably to getting the answer wrong.

------
aantix
If you're single or a couple dating, love tech, move to SV. Don't deprive
yourself of that experience.

Hire a professional relocator to find your apartment. That's what we did.
Company paid for it.

Every third person you will meet is an engineer, generally working on
something cool. Everyone has ideas as to how you can do things "better" \-
from tech to processes to politics.

You can attend all sorts of product launch parties, meetups, company
socializers. So many that it's impossible to go to them all.

You can meet many of the founders and engineers that you read from on HN.
Either they live in SF/Bay Area or end up visiting. Just tweet at them and
ask.

I've never regretted those years.

The financial line gets much blurrier when we started having a family, along
with the SF school system isn't that great.

But for tech culture, it was one of a kind. So. Much. Tech. And I loved every
moment of it.

~~~
rsync
"Every third person you will meet is an engineer, generally working on
something cool. Everyone has ideas as to how you can do things "better" \-
from tech to processes to politics. ... You can attend all sorts of product
launch parties, meetups, company socializers. So many that it's impossible to
go to them all. ... You can meet many of the founders and engineers that you
read from on HN. Either they live in SF/Bay Area or end up visiting. Just
tweet at them and ask."

I live in the SFBA for reasons other than tech/career but this has been a
_huge_ plus. It's very interesting and exciting to visit the major tech HQs
and meet founders and engineers living and working here, etc.

My favorite example of this was last year, 2018, when Twilio Signal was
coincident with Litquake. I stayed in the city all week and talked shop with
Twilio folks all day and went to talks/lectures about the evils of technology
every evening :)

------
ThePadawan
Sure.

Now name any Swiss company that makes software that you heard of before.

I'll wait.

Switzerland is eager to compare itself to Silicon Valley as a center for
education and innovation, but I have lived here for 11 years and I can tell
you that that comparison is utter horse shit. Why?

Because Switzerland, as a tiny neutral country, most of all lacks ambition.
You can't make it as a small company with lots of ideas.

You couldn't pay the salaries for talent - the talent can earn double or
triple working in private banking, insurance of big pharma.

Or maybe the talent already moved away since very few companies can afford to
even open offices in Switzerland, or if they do, they are sales only. Google,
Microsoft and IBM are the biggest exceptions in the Zurich area.

------
aripickar
Like half of these are negatives, imo.

1) I've found places in the bay for way less than what they were saying, even
without roommates. Its like 2k for a 1br in Lake Merritt, which is 15-20
minute BART to SF.

2) Yes startups that are pre-seed/ pre-series A will have crazy hours, but any
big tech co. will be pretty close to 40 hours a week. My team is pretty big
about work life balance, and we work at a place infamous for not caring about
it. I generally work 9-5, with whatever wfh I want.

3) See point 1. Granted if you want a house, it'll be more/farther out, but
apartments can still be had.

4) Money is better in the US. I currently make about 160k USD, which is more
than pretty much any European Dev will make.

6) 300 CHF is still 6x what I pay for healthcare per month. I currently pay 46
USD per month for (from what I can tell is excellent) healthcare, vision, and
dental.

There are a lot of legitimate criticisms of the bay area (expensive, local
politics are fucked, everyone is a tech bro, etc), but some of these are a bit
ridiculous and not very indicative. There's a reason why the bay area is a
desired place to live, and why I personally am trying to move back there.

~~~
opmac
> 6) 300 CHF is still 6x what I pay for healthcare per month. I currently pay
> 46 USD per month for (from what I can tell is excellent) healthcare, vision,
> and dental.

You are the exception here, not the rule. 46 USD for Healthcare is pretty rare
in the US. It's not uncommon for people to spend 500 USD per month, so 300 CHF
would look good to many people.

There is also the potential argument that the Swiss healthcare system is
better overall than the US system, but that could be a complete debate in
itself.

~~~
adventured
> 46 USD for Healthcare is pretty rare in the US.

For a software developer (the subject of the post) it is not pretty rare. The
median software developer is well over six figures in the US now for salary.
Having your healthcare entirely or nearly entirely covered by your employer,
is not unusual when you're over $100k.

------
kick
The founder of Autodesk, John Walker, has written extensively on this topic
since moving to Switzerland decades ago.

[https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/pourquoi_la_suisse/](https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/pourquoi_la_suisse/)

~~~
ThePadawan
...and then they closed their Swiss offices in 2017 [0].

[0] [https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/software-shock_autodesk-to-
shut...](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/software-shock_autodesk-to-shut-
neuchâtel-offices/43716966)

~~~
kick
He no longer works at Autodesk.

------
delta1
> In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something
> between 2500-4000 CHF

Is USD 2500 - USD 4000 supposed to be cheap?!

~~~
prophetjohn
Yeah and that's for a 538 sqft apartment. I don't know the specifics of the
San Francisco rental market, but you can easily beat $4k/mo for a studio in
desirable parts of Manhattan, so I assume the same is true of SV

~~~
thatfrenchguy
$3000 will get you a not bad one bedroom in a old building with rent control
in SF, or in a new building in the burbs.

~~~
alteria
You can do $3k for a 1BR/studio in a new building? I've been seeing >$3,600 in
Peninsula currently.

------
cfv
A maybe minor point: It's more or less impossible to become a Swiss if you
aren't already whereas it's kind of possible to become an American. If your
company makes it it's entirely possible this can become a problem down the
line, for instance regarding your tax status or rights and obligations.

Also, the culture is _remarkably_ different, so if you're expecting something
similar to the american college campus-like experience large companies offer
over there you're in for a hell of a culture shock.

~~~
izacus
> A maybe minor point: It's more or less impossible to become a Swiss if you
> aren't already whereas it's kind of possible to become an American. If your
> company makes it it's entirely possible this can become a problem down the
> line, for instance regarding your tax status or rights and obligations.

These days it's significantly easier to get a Swiss passport than a US one for
most nations.

------
mrep
Wow, talk about making me not want to move to Switzerland. Granted, I'm not in
the bay area but...

1\. Accommodation prices seem about the same where I live.

2\. I work 40 hours a week too

3\. 20 minute bus ride for me so no "2 hour commute".

4\. 120,000 CHF for a senior? I make over 200,000 and I have less than 4 years
of experience. That would be a huge pay cut.

5\. 35% income taxes + state? This is just blatantly false as effective
federal income tax rate doesn't hit 35% until over a million. I for example
paid just 22% in federal income taxes including social security and medicare.

6\. My biweekly copay is just $50. Granted, I am on a high deductible plan but
the deductible is only 1300 with a max out of pocket limit of 2600 a year and
I have a health savings account which allows me to save/invest 100% tax free
income for health care spending.

------
IdontRememberIt
Switzerland is a complex system: instead of 1 high rate tax, you pay many low
taxes. So cheating is not worth it individually (too risky/complex for a small
saving). But the sum is crazy.

Exemple of taxes/mandatory ccharges a developper will pay: network tax,
photocopy tax, radio tax, VAT, AHV/IV, garbage elimination tax, city tax,
state tax, federal tax, healthcare (in some countries it is included in your
"federal/state" tax), etc.

I just got my "final tax decision"... Switzerland is a fiscal inferno if your
income comes from work (vs capital gain)...

Usually, I work __6 month __per year for taxes. My grand parents were working
1 to 1.5 month in the 60s-70s to pay their taxes also as "independant".

Plus with all the crazy fix and variable costs, it is not competitive as an
independant or small company.

Today, as a "personne morale" (corporation) only complex fiscally optimized
structures can get a low tax rate (or as a "physical person" if you are ultra
rich (3 comma club) not professionally active in the country you can negotiate
a very low rate).

PS: also, can we definitively kill the ridiculous myth/reputation of Swiss
data protection? (In case of criminal investigation, in many cantons
(equivalent to states) a police investigator does not even need a judge
warrant to have access to the data)

~~~
ElDji
> Usually, I work 6 month per year for taxes.

Having worked as freelance in switzerland, that sound weird and make me thing
: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

~~~
IdontRememberIt
Each situation is different and depends on an infinity of parameters (for
exemple do not forget that a married couple pays more taxes than two
individuals).

Income city+state+federal (30%), VAT (7,6%), AHV (11%) + all the rest I have
lost count of.

For exemple, I pay 2,7% for PCI (Family allowance tax).

I have a very good revenue by Swiss standard. Everything from work, nothing
from capital gain.

\- I work in Romandie where personal tax a waaaay higher than in Swiss Germany
and I am not in the best city...

\- I do not count 2nd pilier as it is a "capitalisation" system and not
"redistribution" (AHV). But are also mandatory insurances. Also, the revenue
you will get at retirement is shrinking (due to life expectancy and negative
rates) and is forecasted to even decrease in the future.

\- Do not forget that Federal tax is not linear...

PS: Fun fact. Almost all successful French tennis players have lived in
Switzerland a few years because they could negociate their taxes. Roger
Federer or Wawrinka who have done a lot for a positive image of Switzerland
had to pay full rate...

PS2: Company tax system is under _total_ renovation now (because of pressure
from Europe). I can imaging that personal tax will follow in the coming decade
__s __.

~~~
kgwgk
> for exemple do not forget that a married couple pays more taxes than two
> individuals

Not necessarily, it depends on details like the canton and the income of each
person.

~~~
IdontRememberIt
This issue may be fixed in the future, but unfortunately still a reality.
[https://www.efd.admin.ch/efd/de/home/themen/steuern/steuern-...](https://www.efd.admin.ch/efd/de/home/themen/steuern/steuern-
national/reform-der-ehe--und-familienbesteuerung/fb-
reform_ehe_und_familienbesteuerung.html)

------
ElDji
Please note that the labour market is regulated in Switzerland and that,
depending on where you come from (especially outside EU), it may be difficult
or impossible to obtain a work permit.

~~~
lultimouomo
Is that different from Silicon Valley?

~~~
CalChris
You may be thinking of H1-B work visas. Those are capped but nationally rather
than for Silicon Valley.

------
rockinghigh
Zurich’s strength is also that it’s centrally located in Europe, within 1-2
hours of France, Germany, and Italy and close to mountains for skiing. There
are also some serious negatives ignored in the article. First, weather is a
lot worse than in California. It’s wet and cold. Second, they speak Swiss
German, which means all administrative forms are in that language. Most people
will speak English, at least in a business setting but it’s not as easy as in
London or even Amsterdam. If you have kids they will grow up speaking German.
Another negative is the price of food and restaurants and the lack of food
diversity.

~~~
lukeqsee
> Second, they speak Swiss German, which means all administrative forms are in
> that language.

All government forms are in (High/Schrift) German, French, and Italian.

> lack of food diversity.

This is certainly true.

------
danhanlon
The tax section is incredibly misleading. For Ireland, the 12.5% tax rate is
corporation tax, not for individuals. The effective income tax rate in Ireland
for dev level salaries is 40%+, after a point your marginal tax rate becomes
52%.

Quickly looking into it, all the tax rates look like the corporation tax. The
graph is blatantly wrong across the board.

------
zerr
Cons: no Sun and the salaries seem to be capped at CHF 120-140K. Has that old
school European mindset that managers and MBAs should be paid more than
individual contributors, engineers.

~~~
dijit
Lots of Sun, but maybe not as much as Southern California.

San Francisco is famously non-sunny (all that cloud).

Salaries are certainly not capped at 140k CHF, I've seen a number of job ads
for 180K CHF and that doesn't count stock options which is usually the bulk of
compensation at the high end.

Not sure about the MBA vs IC thing though.

~~~
tiagopc
> Salaries are certainly not capped at 140k CHF, I've seen a number of job ads
> for 180K CHF Are you speaking about CH or USA? Because in CH it pretty much
> seems to be capped at 140k CHF and below. Unless you are speaking of a very
> specific role/technology stack.

~~~
dijit
I was applying for roles recently that were as high as 180K CHF (and that
wasn't FAANG).

~~~
config_yml
Can you share some company names? Seems rare

~~~
dijit
One I applied for recently was dacadoo[0]

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacadoo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacadoo)

------
error265
Moving their in 20 days. (software engineer from London).

In my opinion there is less opportunities there (In Switzerland) higher
starting salary, then people get stuck in the middle 120-140, and can't shift
past. (for the reasons mentioned below). Because managers don't want to pay
developers more than themselves.

HOWEVER, that same problem exists in London, but is typically solved by
developers going day-rate contract. That way management can justify and still
get experience.

Because the market is smaller in Switzerland it does not make it so easy for a
day-rate contractor market to exist..

So, my point is, if Switzerland is better than London for developers on a
global level. Its only marginal. But compared to other salaries, Doctors,
Dentists Lawyers, Engineers etc. Developers in London are well paid (treated
as technical roles similar to those mentioned) Whereas in Switzerland
developers are paid half++ of those jobs.

~~~
rahilb
I have seen some day rate contracts in Zurich at astronomical rates, if you
don't mind working for a Big Bank. One of them even offered expensed flights,
hotel accommodation and a (substantial) per diem!

J2EE isn't the bleeding edge but it can keep the lights on.

------
vasili111
1\. How easy/difficult to get Switzerland citizenship if you live and work
there?

2\. How popular is English language is in Switzerland IT companies?

~~~
hocuspocus
1\. The path to citizenship is pretty long as an adult:
[https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/buergerrecht/ein...](https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/buergerrecht/einbuergerung/ordentliche_einbuergerung.html)

But once you tick the boxes it's not particularly hard.

2\. Very.

------
mistrial9
my brilliant colleague went to Zurich for a year to work with finance people
on math problems. He said that it was not the culture to mix socially, he
liked to ride his road bike in the good weather, and basically, he worked the
entire year without making any friends or being social. Then he left. It was
expensive for him at the time (no details) even as a well-paid young math
programmer, so it was not a big financial win. His french is not great, so
that was also a problem. He did not recommend the experience.

~~~
ThePadawan
Can confirm - the local media will reprint the same articles every few months
on how expats are moving away because the Swiss are too standoffish.

And that includes Germans. I don't want to lean too heavily on the cliches,
but if you come across cold even compared to Germans, surely that's a sign.

Source: German expat, living in Switzerland since 2008.

~~~
monaghanboy
Can and do the expats just socialize with each other to mitigate the problem?

~~~
ThePadawan
Yes, they can and do.

This of course leads to a societal enclave where even expats that would like
to integrate into Swiss society find it harder and harder to do so.

On the other hand, the more right-wing press and parties use them to point out
the perceived lack of willing to integrate into society to further restrict
immigration.

I wouldn't describe this as a mitigation, more of an escalation.

------
notus
What about formal requirements? The software field in the US is known for not
caring a whole lot about people's educational backgrounds as long as they can
do the job. Is Switzerland the same or are degrees hard requirements?

~~~
Galaxeblaffer
Maybe the companies don't care, but apparently the US government does. There's
a hard requirement for H-1B, that the applicant hold at least a four-year
bachelor’s degree in a relevant field or its equivalent, and will be employed
in a position which requires such a degree.

~~~
ojbyrne
From uscis.gov: ‘Have education, training, or progressively responsible
experience in the specialty that is equivalent to the completion of such a
degree, and have recognition of expertise in the specialty through
progressively responsible positions directly related to the specialty.’

[https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-
worker...](https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-
workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-dod-cooperative-research-and-development-
project-workers-and-fashion-models)

------
d--b
They have no shame. They went as far as praising Switzerland's diversity and
inclusiveness... Come on...

Healthcare may be the only reason, but you also have it everywhere else...

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
Switzerland is extremely diverse. There are four official languages, and 20+%
of the population is foreign-born. In Zurich, that rate is much higher.

~~~
d--b
Ok, well, depends what you call diversity.

In the US, it generally means racial diversity. Sure Switzerland has a lot of
European people from various countries. But it is nonetheless a very white
country...

I'm just saying that writing that Switzerland is more diverse than Silicon
Valley is ridiculous.

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
That's a very superficial measure of diversity. There's a lot more to a person
than the color of their skin. It makes no sense to apply that extremely narrow
definition of diversity to a European country, or even to the US.

~~~
d--b
Yes, I am kind of simply stating what people imply when they say diversity.

For most people a group of 3 people: one Chinese, one Egyptian, and one
Columbian is a culturally more diverse (my definition), than a group of
Germans, Austrian, French, Belgians and Dutch...

------
lacker
The problem is, the salaries in Switzerland are terrible for good software
engineers.

This page says 120,000 CHF for 5 years of experience. That's around $120,000
USD.

At Google, someone with that much experience is at least an L5. According to
[https://www.levels.fyi/](https://www.levels.fyi/) in the Silicon Valley
region that gets you total comp of $360,000.

Yeah, not everyone is making Google money. But a lot of software engineers
around here are, or they will be at some point during their career.

~~~
hocuspocus
An L5 at Google Zurich will earn almost the same as one in Mountain View, pay
less taxes and have more vacation.

Sure there are more high paying jobs in the Bay Area, but there are also lots
of start-ups that pay pretty average salaries plus monopoly money that make
the total compensation look good on paper. Assuming everyone will eventually
be in the top 10% is silly.

------
kmarc
Many of the comments here insist on housing prices. I'm a Zurich local for the
7th year and would like to put this into perspective.

Sharing a flat here is something many younger single people do, but even for
the older generation is not a taboo (my friend shared a flat with a single
mother and her kid for a couple years). I myself share an enormous modern
penthouse-like apartment on a top of a building, at a good and quiet location
in Zurich. I wanted to have flatmates (winters are dark and boring here :-) )
and one of the side effects is the cost saving. I never lived in bigger
luxury, yet I pay 10% of my monthly income for the rent.

Public transportation is affordable, fast, clean, and again, in contrast to
the US, not looked down on. A manager in the bank sits next to the paintshop
worker on the bus and this is completely fine. I have lived outskirts too, yet
never had more than 30min commute.

Life might seem inconvenient here (bikes preferred over cars, young people
share flats instead of their own kingdom, 2-3x more $$$ for a restaurant
dinner, etc), however, all these facts also contribute to better physiological
and mental health.

It's not for everyone thou, YMMV, etc.

On the SWEng side, it's a whole different question. Less competitive
environment, less cool bubble projects, no Juicero-like promises to get
superrich superfast. (Although this might also one of the factors for a better
mental health ;-) )

------
neonate
"Silicon Valley is dead for Software Developers"?

Nobody goes there anymore it's too crowded.

------
dzonga
The country, I would really want to emigrate to is Portgual. lots of sun, low
cost of living. but it seems there's no tech jobs there and they pay poorly.
I'm not seeking SV money, either but more like mid city US money in the range
of 50-75k EUR for a mid level engineer

~~~
jxub
Sadly in Portugal 30-40k€ seem to be the top of the market. In spite of that
relatively low number, it still buys a high living standard.

------
dominotw
How is it better if the salaries are lower.

I am tired of engineers should care about their "craft" above all else
dictums. Software engineering is somehow more pure and innocent than evil
finance ( for example).

I would rather earn a lot in my prime and retire early to a place of my
choosing.

~~~
freehunter
There's a lot of people who care about more than just raw salary. I could get
a higher salary in the Bay Area but my quality of life would drop
substantially. It's not worth it. And although my paycheck would go up, my
discretionary income would drop substantially as well. It doesn't matter if I
get paid 2x if my cost of living is 3x and my commute time is 5x.

~~~
logicchains
>It doesn't matter if I get paid 2x if my cost of living is 3x and my commute
time is 5x.

It depends where you're coming from. If your current cost of living is
$2000/month, your salary is $100,000/year and your commute is 10 minutes, your
above ratios would lead to $200,000/year salary, $6000/month cost of living
and 50 minutes commute in the Bay Area, increasing disposable income from $76k
to $128k. Many people would happily trade the extra commute for the 60%+
increase in money to spend or save.

------
s3nnyy
Tech recruiter in Zurich here. I run
[https://coderfit.com](https://coderfit.com) and connect programmers with jobs
in Zurich for a living. (I programmed for money before, so I know the market
from many sites.)

Taxes are low, salaries high and things costs less than one thinks. Yet, the
biggest downsite here is the lack of jobs. Zurich has only ~350.000
inhabitants and hence it can't have the same number of opportunities like
London, NYC or the Bay Area. That leads to a high variance in pay. I have seen
people being underpaid at 85k CHF a year as a senior developer and then going
to 120k CHF just by changing companies but doing essentially the same work.

------
agounaris
Sorry people but Switzerland is boring and hard to integrate! It's nice for
specific types of people who enjoy elitism and time-boxing. I will be always
surprised by how fast people vanish once the stores are closed...early in the
afternoon.

------
TomVDB
From what I've heard from a Swiss friend who moved back from SV with an
American spouse: even after correcting for COL, it's a major loss of income.

In SV, engineers are at the top of the money food chain, in Zurich, it's
bankers.

------
gok
> Companies that offer stock options are generally rare

Missed opportunity, given that capital gains in Switzerland are tax-free.

On that note, the tax rate in the bar chart is for corporate taxes, not
personal taxes. Swiss taxes are low but not that low [1]; the average worker
burden is around 22%.

[1]
[https://files.taxfoundation.org/20180917120122/A-Comparision...](https://files.taxfoundation.org/20180917120122/A-Comparision-
of-the-Tax-Burden-on-Labor-in-the-OECD-2018.pdf)

------
blunte
This seems like just any old other "10 reasons for X" or whatever - blog fluff
to help raise a brand. Rather than spend a lot of HN intellectual energy on
it, we probably should have just passed it by...

That's not to say there aren't some really attractive reasons to be in
Switzerland, but trying to compare it to SV is rather pointless (or too broad
or too open to disagreement about which metrics matter, etc.).

------
joelbluminator
I think it boils down to which culture you like more, American or European.
Both have their pros and cons. The American way of life is characterised by
more stress, more inequality, perhaps a bit more ambition (for professionals).
Less holidays, less calm and perhaps a bit less care free. U.S will generally
pay you more. On Average, the average American is less happy than the average
Swiss by many measurements.

------
IdontRememberIt
Because of FATCA, if you are a US person, do not underestimate the
consequences (costs, admin complexity) of the IRS regulation following you
abroad.

------
Maximus9000
For cost of living comparisons, there's a great site for that:

[https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Switzerland&country2=United+States&city1=Zurich&city2=Mountain+View%2C+CA)

------
atopuzov
Could be worse, you could be living in Dublin, Ireland where it's in the 50%
range for damp cold mouldy apartments.

------
hc91
I call bullshit on this article. Ah and by the way - the bulk of the article
contents start after the following sentence: "There are 8 reasons why I
personally find Switzerland much better for the fellow Software Engineer:
[...]" This is a _PERSONAL OPINION_ of some random guy.

------
drawkbox
The list seems like a dream, especially the healthcare part and the neutrality
of the Swiss, not as extreme and divided. The housing, taxes and pay are icing
on the cake. To top it off, Switzerland looks like a dreamland with all those
amazing views.

~~~
goatinaboat
_The housing_

If you have a shower or run a bath or do laundry in your apartment outside of
the designated hours, your neighbours will complain to the landlord and you
may be evicted. The Swiss are very, very fond of rules, and even fonder of
enforcing them.

~~~
netsharc
Source? Exaggerate much?

~~~
ThePadawan
I would say it's slight exaggeration, having lived in Switzerland for over ten
years.

I would put it on the same level as "my home owner's association fined me for
only watering my lawn twice a week instead of three times a week".

Not impossible to believe, but also far from normal.

------
rStar
Weather and access to nature in Silicon Valley is optimal for humans. The
driving is also great. If you have an actual building to live in the Redwood
City to Mountain View corridor, it’s a fairly amazing life.

------
aty268
Few things:

1) Salaries are essentially capped at $120,000.

2) Stock options are very rare.

Basically, you can't get rich. No different than working at Google but with
lower salary potential. This is why Switzerland will never be the next SV.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I’m pretty sure Google Zurich pays more than $120k.

~~~
config_yml
Depends on the position of course, but they pay much less than in the US. If
you want to rake in cash, don't go for a tech job. It's much easier to make >
200k in some random middle management position at a bank.

~~~
username90
> they pay much less than in the US

Not in my experience, it is basically the same. You start at around $160K TC
minimum as a junior and then it rises rapidly from there. Glassdoor doesn't
have stock and bonus values for Switzerland which makes the salaries look much
worse than they actually are.

------
mips_avatar
European tech companies always trumpet free healthcare. But if you work at a
top tech company in the US you don't pay for healthcare either, and the wait
times for service are better.

------
ivanche
I know I'm repeating myself, but this should've been a static page - instead
if you want to see anything you must enable 3 scripts and 2 XHR. Why, just
why?

------
jankotek
Rent in Zurich is $4000 a month and that as an advantage? Is that a joke? Many
workers in Switzerland commute daily from foreign countries to save money.

~~~
izacus
$4000 for rent is not normal for Zurich, and a 25 minute comfortable train
commute drops the rent significantly lower.

Try getting a 25 minute commute in SV.

~~~
dilyevsky
That’s 25 min to hb? And then you have to change trains or take a tram or
whatever. So not 25 mins

Edit: 25 mins to 4th&kings get you as far as Hillsdale which is considerably
cheaper too.

~~~
izacus
No, I mean 25 minutes to actual workplace.

------
C1sc0cat
Not sure about the tax figures the UK is way more than 19% the base rate is 20
and at equivalent wages you will be in the higher band

------
lormayna
No one is mentioning that healthcare is not free (as in the other European
country), but you must pay a very expensive insurance.

~~~
hocuspocus
Insurance itself isn't very expensive compared to what you pay (through
mandatory contributions) elsewhere in Europe.

Deductibles are high and healthcare is expensive, and the overall fake
competition and illusion of choice among private insurers is bullshit, I
agree. But in absolute I'd pay _a lot_ more in countries like France or
Germany.

------
jeffrallen
I am a Swiss-American programmer who has worked in California and also in
Switzerland, and this is all accurate.

------
akhilcacharya
> If you want to save on the premium and keep yourself healthy then you pick
> the 2500 franchise and pay as little as 300 CHF per month for healthcare
> insurance.

That's..surprisingly expensive for someone that's not self-employed. I didn't
think it would be that expensive. Meanwhile for me it's about $30 a month for
my HSA employer plan with a lower deductible.

~~~
gniv
Insurance is not linked to employment in Switzerland. You shop around.
Employers might help defray the cost. I know at least one large employer who
gives 400CHF/mo towards insurance ( on top of salary).

------
Grzegrzolka
Meanwhile I pay 20 euro for 1Gbps in Poland and I work remotely for company in
New York.

------
bitL
Somewhere at the bottom of the site with very small letters:

* requires German C1-level or better

------
amai
What about vacation days and parental leave possibilities?

------
krak12
Go to Spain, same salary, free healthcare, better quality of life, better
weather, no crunch culture, better social life (good luck making new friends
on Switzerland), less taxes and the last nobel prize of literature was
inspired meanwhile lived here like many others.

~~~
kgwgk
> Go to Spain, same salary

The difference is that in Switzerland you get paid that salary every month,
not over the full year. (I’m exaggerating, but not that much.)

Edit: by the way, the “less taxes” remark is also quite funny.

~~~
fookitty
You're totally exaggerating, been living in Spain for the past 10 years and
previously worked in Switzerland, I often get job offers from Swiss companies
and the difference is minimal.

~~~
kgwgk
Either you are too lucky/unlucky and your experience is not typical or you
think that a factor of two (at least) is minimal.

------
Wh1skey
Ireland is looking really nice now

------
RocketSyntax
Swiss babes

~~~
RocketSyntax
^ 1 person doesn't like Swiss women.

------
loxs
The price comparison reads like a joke from my $500 a month, 2 bedroom, nice
neighbourhood apartment in Sofia, Bulgaria. Also, probably saving more money
than I would in Switzerland.

"If you are a Software Developer living in Europe then there is a better place
for you - and this place is Switzerland."

Ha-ha

Yeah, it's probably not bad in Switzerland, just some of the arguments are
really funny.

Also:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitosha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitosha)

~~~
rockinghigh
How are salaries in Bulgaria?

~~~
loxs
For a senior dev, anywhere in the range between 2 and 5k EUR net monthly
(after taxes).

