
Would you take smart drugs to perform better at work? - lelf
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131212-smart-drugs-at-work-good-idea/all
======
cypherpunks01
Reading this reminds me of Paul Erdös's amphetamine habit. Excerpt from "The
Man Who Loved Only Numbers":

Like all of Erdös's friends, Graham was concerned about his drug-taking. In
1979, Graham bet Erdös $500 that he couldn't stop taking amphetamines for a
month. Erdös accepted the challenge, and went cold turkey for thirty days.
After Graham paid up--and wrote the $500 off as a business expense--Erdös
said, "You've showed me I'm not an addict. But I didn't get any work done. I'd
get up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I'd have no ideas,
just like an ordinary person. You've set mathematics back a month." He
promptly resumed taking pills, and mathematics was the better for it.

~~~
sillysaurus2
There's probably a good chance the placebo effect was holding him back during
that month. He was already nervous that he might need the drugs to continue
working (otherwise he wouldn't have made the bet) so it follows that he may
have tricked himself into believing he needed the drugs to keep working. It's
hard to say either way.

~~~
Killah911
BS, that isn't "placebo" effect. Tried that experiment. Amphetamines are
addictive as hell. Sure you can stop taking them but it leaves your
neurochemical state in the crapper for a while, so you're down & out (Maybe a
withdrawal symptom). IMHO, best not to screw with the brain. It's a fairly
complex bit of machinery & you may be wishing you left it at good enough. I
know someone who did the electromagnetic stimulation thing, it sounded crazy
to me at the time but then actively flooding you bloodstream with crap that
will "hack" you brain isn't that far off either

~~~
Killah911
FYI, guy who tried the electromagnetic stimulation had a baby, when I saw him
afterwards he always seemed tired. I'm assuming any benefit from the
electromagnetic stimulation was negated by lack of sleep... Did not seem to
get significantly smarter or anything.

------
D_Alex
If they were truly effective and there were no side effects, I would take
them, and not just for work.

There is a slippery slope here: If taking moderately effective drugs with no
side effects becomes commonplace, there will be pressure to take more
effective drugs with slight side effects, then possibly very effective drugs
with considerable side effects. Just like in sports.

In my opinion, this is not something to be afraid of, but something to be
aware of, and debated.

~~~
coderzach
Maybe. However, caffeine is a moderately effective smart drug with no side
effects, and is fairly commonplace. I don't think this causes pressure to take
Adderall (more effective, slight side effects).

~~~
analog31
AFAIK caffeine is a diuretic, interferes with sleep, and gives me the shakes
at a high enough dosage. I'd consider those things to be side effects. Pushing
up against an unacceptable level of side effects is what probably forces most
of us to moderate our dosage.

~~~
babby
Caffeine is only a mild diuretic, and only for those who haven't built a
tolerance to it. You're right though, Caffeine sure does have side-effects,
especially withdrawal effects.

------
tlarkworthy
I can't view this from the UK?! On the _British_ Broadcasting Cooperation's
website crazy.

"BBC Future (international version) We're sorry but this site is not
accessible from the UK as it is part of our international service and is not
funded by the licence fee. It is run commercially by BBC Worldwide, a wholly-
owned subsidiary of the BBC, the profits made from it go back to BBC
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about BBC Worldwide and its digital activities at www.bbcworldwide.com.

If you are looking for health, technology, science and environment news in the
UK, please visit: Health, Technology, Science and Environment."

~~~
protomyth
You would think that if they are smart enough to figure out you are in the UK
and they cannot "profit from you", they would just not show you the Ads.

------
protomyth
I drink coffee already, so I guess it's more a matter of degrees than would.

------
jperras
Like most things, it depends on the trade-offs. Who wouldn't want to be a
better version of themselves if it can be done safely?

I already take several: creatine monohydrate (5g/day), Vitamin D (4,000
IU/day), fish oil (~1000mg EPA/600mg DHA), caffeine, and probably more that
I'm forgetting.

~~~
zfran
could you briefly describe the benefits of each?

~~~
jperras
There's a nice list of claimed nootropic supplements (legal and illegal,
depending on what country you live in) and what benefits (if any) they
provide:
[http://examine.com/supplements/Nootropic/](http://examine.com/supplements/Nootropic/)

------
AndrewKemendo
Would I? Or do I?

Cognitive enhancing drugs (nootropics) have been in use in the workplace for
quite a while now.

Reddit has a pretty robust community as well:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/](http://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/)

------
greenfieldprod
On the stipulation that:

1) They have been 'proven' empirically to have the advertised efficacy in the
general population. Different tasks require different kinds of attention and
thinking.

2) There are absolutely no mental or physical potentials for addiction

3) There are absolutely no deleterious mental, physical or general health
effects.

Caffeine gets 0/3, so I don't drink it.

> \- modafinil >\- piracetam >\- amphetamines >\- beta blockers > \- ritalin

None of these pass any of the three requirements. Two of them have the fun
potential for inducing psychosis in the general population, I have a friend
who had a psychotic break after being prescribed amphetamines for ADD.

If you mix beta-blockers with stimulants, you can cause paradoxical
hypertension and die. Beta-blockers also build up a tolerance and you will
have rebound hypertension. Also people say they cause hair loss, but I
attribute that men are typically prescribed them at an age where hair loss is
natural.

Modafinil is thought to work by inhibiting GABA release through a similar
mechanism as opioids, but in different parts of the brain and not to such an
extreme extent. From what I've read, a pattern of abuse and withdrawal can
develop with this substance.

Piracetam has a withdrawal, and needs supplementing with other nutrients to be
effective.

If any of the above work for you, kudos. I don't want to live in a world where
I am pressured into taking drugs on the off chance I might provide more value
to my employer at the expense of my health, just because other people are
willing to risk it for a job.

~~~
majkinetor
Piracetam is unsafe and has withdrawal? That must be joke!

Some people are taking 20g/day for entire life, including pregnancy.

And, no, you don't need 'other supplements'. You can for instance eat eggs for
choline.

Actually, your numbered list is nonsensical:

1\. Nothing is ever proven 3\. Substance such as that 'absolutely no
deleterious mental, pyshical or general healt effects' doesn't exist. The
toxin is in the dose. Every input is trade between good and bad.

------
analog31
Depends on the risk. Assuming that the risk is proportionate to dosage, and in
the absence of a regulatory mechanism, widespread use of performance enhancing
drugs will lead to a level of use just shy of being lethal over the duration
of employment, say three years.

~~~
pmiller2
I'm not so sure I believe that. Is there some kind of game theory argument
that shows this? I find it hard to believe that taking "just shy of ...
lethal" dosages is a Nash equilibrium here, once you factor in risk of death
in the payoff matrix.

~~~
analog31
I had to look up Nash equilibrium, and your critique is valid given that I
certainly haven't tried to compute anything. A number of observations lead me
to suspect that there is some sort of optimum:

1\. Working conditions generally being more dangerous in the absence of
regulatory mechanisms such as OSHA.

2\. I live in a state with a sizable dairy industry, and I've read that three
years is the typical productive lifespan of a milk cow before it can no longer
support its own weight and collapses, when its production is managed with RBGH
and antibiotics.

3\. Doping of elite athletes is regulated by practical limits of detection.

Lethality might not be the ultimate limit. Public outrage or a decline of
performance above a certain dosage might also set upper limits.

------
aunty_helen
I took anaracetam for about 6 months earlier in the year. Same as piracetam
but non-prescription and only 3-4hrs vs 8+ duration.

The effects were definitely there. More code, easier comprehension of code but
also enhanced use of my vocabulary, clarity of speech.

I stopped taking it because I was worried it was affecting my short term
memory. I felt like I was becoming more forgetful especially on weekends when
I would take a break.

I'm not sure if this was just a readjustment of my baseline making me feel
dumb when I wasn't taking any or if there has actually been damage done.

I'm now of the mind that it's probably better not to risk it until a drug is
well established as safe.

~~~
needacig
+1 for experiencing negative effects on memory after a while. I had that too.

------
vipstarry
I don't need that to perform better. I would do it the natural way:
maintaining a healthy lifestyle. This means proper sleep, daily exercise and a
balanced and varied food.

~~~
adamnemecek
It's not like 'performing better' is binary. I'm sure that you would perform
even better if you took nootropics.

~~~
Killah911
Not necessarily. Good chunk of the "enhancers" might not bode well with
strenuous exercise. I don't know of anyone who's mentioned an amplification in
their abilities by mixing both diet+exercise with neuro enhancers.

~~~
adamnemecek
Well that settles it. Killah911 doesn't know anyone who would do both, ergo
there isn't anyone.

~~~
Killah911
If you do, please share. It's not the kind of discussion that comes about as a
normal part of my conversation with most people. Hoping to hear some
interesting viewpoints on HN, especially if they happen to be from people who
were able to amplify or have an additive effect by doing both.

I've experienced negative ones so far with Beta Blockers and stimulants +
exercise. Haven't been bold enough to try other combos, I'm good with
excercise for now

~~~
adamnemecek
I don't. But that still does not really give any indication about the effects
of the combination.

------
greenyoda
No drug is 100% safe or free of side effects, and these effects might only
surface after long-term use. Some of these side effects are not currently
known, since large numbers of people haven't taken some of these drugs on a
daily basis for a long time.

For example, some psychotropic drugs, such as antipsychotics, can have severe
side effects which are sometimes permanent, such as tardive dyskinesia
(involuntary, repetitive body movements)[1]. Others, like SSRIs, can have very
unpleasant withdrawal symptoms. Maybe I'd risk neurological side effects if I
had a mental illness that prevented me from living my life. But would I do it
just to become more effective at work? No way.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardive_dyskinesia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardive_dyskinesia)

~~~
MichaelGG
Amphetamines and opiates have a rather small side effect profile if you're
otherwise in good health. If you're not prone to psychosis or heart issues and
not "abusing" amphetamines, there shouldn't be much problem. Same for opiates:
apart from constipation, they're a near-complete win. People perform better at
intellectual tasks when using opiates due to feeling better overall.

It's not fair to compare antipsychotics and other drugs to "fix" mental
instability - those have terrible side effects. The newer ones are better
overall, although with major but rare side effects like you mentioned, as well
as SJS (~skin falls off). Basics, such as amphetamines, are not nearly as
risky or screwed up as the psych drugs.

~~~
greenyoda
" _If you 're not prone to psychosis or heart issues_"

If you've never tried taking these drugs before, how would you know that
you're prone to these issues before they hit you and it's too late?

The following excerpt from Wikipedia[1] describes side-effects of amphetamines
(e.g., Adderall) and similar stimulants when used to treat ADHD:

 _Increased rates of psychosis and /or mania are associated with many
stimulants used to treat ADHD, including Concerta, Ritalin LA, d-MPH,
Atomoxetine, Adderall XR, Modafinil, MTS, and Metadate. A 2009 FDA review of
49 clinical trials found that one to two percent of children taking stimulants
for ADHD experienced hallucinations or other psychotic episodes. Nearly half
of these were under the age of eleven, and approximately 90% had no history of
similar psychiatric events. Hallucinations involving snakes, worms or insects
were the most commonly reported. This incidence of psychosis is higher than
the 0.1% reported by previous short-term clinical trials. Even this new
incidence rate may be low, however, since the clinical trials often excluded
children with previous, adverse reactions to ADHD medication._

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivit...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder_management#Psychiatric_side_effects)

------
throwawaydrugs
(Throwaway account, through proxy server, etc.)

Yes.

I've worked at a startup where 60% of the engineers were using drugs
illegally, every single day. Most used Adderall that was supplied by one of
the programmers, but when that ran short, some started using very small doses
(~5mg) of methamphetamine (myself included).

This was the only way any of us could keep up. There was a clear divide in
compensation between the engineers that were using and the ones that were not.
We, the users, simply got more done. As far as I know, management was not
aware of the drug use.

This company eventually had a sizeable exit, and the top-rated engineers
(read: the drug users) all got hefty "rentention bonuses" from the acquirer.
As far as I know, there isn't one of us in the "using group" that is not a
millionaire right now.

------
yarou
I've been doing an interesting experiment related to this. For the past month,
I took either 200 mg Modafinil (Generic) or 150 mg Armodafinil (Nuvigil). I
noticed no increase or decrease in my productivity. However, my mood was
noticeably improved with both. I became more sociable than normal, which
surprised some of my co-workers (usually I'm quite reserved / absorbed with
coding during my day to day). I also was able to see certain novel patterns I
wouldn't have before. It's hard to describe this: it's almost like my brain
was bringing to the surface memories that were relevant to helping me solve a
particular problem.

~~~
needacig
+1 to feeling more sociable while on these drugs. Whether that is a good thing
depends on your personal preferences. I don't generally like being talkative
and I don't really like talkative people, so in retrospect, I don't appreciate
that side-effect.

------
mindcrime
Yes, I would. In fact, I need to get around to figuring out what the Silk Road
Alternative Of The Week is and look into getting some Modafinil or whatever.

As of now, I pretty much limit myself to caffeine and 5HTP.

Wouldn't mind trying some acid as well, but I'm not sure you can really call
that a "smart drug". :-)

------
fleitz
No, I've found that performance at work is generally inversely correlated with
being smart. That said inducing mental states that makes one more likeable
generally works wonders for performance at work.

------
needacig
I've taken Modafinil in the past for this reason, for about six months. It
made me temporarily more productive, alert, and able to focus (for the first
two months, I'd say), but then I started to become habituated and the effect
wasn't the same. When I was on it, I slept and ate much less. I am not sure I
could have slept or ate more if I wanted to. At first, it made me feel so
anxious that I could hardly exist around other people. I remember my first
conversation with my roommate while I was on it. My heart nearly exploded and
my brain froze. I had a terrifying experience driving around that first day
too. (Lesson learned: do not try new drugs and drive!) But that went away
after a day or so, and then I behaved more recklessly. I felt more aggressive
and on edge. I think I felt more confident, temporarily. I became highly
talkative (for me, at least). I drank a lot, at least for the first three or
so months. One possible theory is that it induced a higher heart rate, which
made me feel anxious, which made me want to drink more. I also smoked a lot
more (cigarettes). I found that my memory was not as good after several months
of taking this -- this could be due in part to its interference with my sleep,
and in part due to the drinking, although I can't say for sure if I drank
markedly more during that time than other times in my life. I don't really
think so though. I actually got the worst grades that I have ever received in
my life the semester I was on it (math and science courses). I stopped taking
it soon after. Granted, I was dealing with a number of other issues then, so
this was hardly a controlled experiment, and the effects I experienced could
have been due to a number of other lifestyle factors. In addition, there could
have been a drug quality issue. We'll never know. But my sense for these kinds
of drugs after that experience is that it is not healthy for me and I would
not do it again. I wouldn't even take it as a once-in-a-while all-nighter
work-cramming thing, unless I was, say, in a multi-day gun battle, which is a
very unlikely scenario. For me, I find that maintaining good mental health,
working consistently, eating well, getting eight hours of sleep, and
exercising makes me a much more productive, happy, and mentally sharp human
being. I think it is difficult to use drugs to improve yourself unless you
have serious issues to begin with and/or you really know what you're doing. If
you're going to try it, make sure you plan ahead and have ample discipline,
data, and possibly, expert supervision.

Interestingly, before experimenting with Modafinil, my friends and I used to
sometimes take Adderall and similar drugs recreationally, because we found
their effect to be quite similar to cocaine.

EDIT: Feel free to ask me more about this experience if you're curious.

------
cypherpunks01
"Smart drugs" mentioned:

\- modafinil

\- piracetam

\- amphetamines

\- beta blockers

\- ritalin

~~~
Killah911
Modafinil is overrated. There are modest gains, but meh...

No idea what paracetem does...

Amphetamines are great until you get a heartattack or go batshit crazy. Not
worth the risk. Ok for weightloss but way too dangerous in my opinion. Quit it
and you'll be down for what seems forever. I put phentermine in the same class

Beta blockers, now that's a first... Always thought they're boring blood
pressure drugs or something...

Ritalin is OK, but you can get habituated, not entirely sure there aren't any
negative side effects (certainly not as creative on Ritalin).

IMHO Best cognitive enhancer with few side effects: Exercise! Read "Spark",
tried the 80% of max heartrate for 30 mins a day and boom! It works! Good ol
BDNF. Better concentration, creativity & less depression. Also helps create
new brain cells... I hate exercising, but now I pop in a audible & take the
much needed 45min refresher every day. Haven't tried with any combination of
enhancers, though beta blockers are probably not a good fit right off the bat
& I wonder if Amphetamines wouldn't make you heart just want to explode...

~~~
rquantz
Beta blockers are used by musicians to control performance anxiety. I used to
take them for auditions. For a stage performance it can leave you a bit
emotionally flat, but when you have ten minutes in which you have to be
perfect, it can really help stave off the shakes.

~~~
babby
I suppose beta blockers are prescription only in most countries? Been reading
up on them, sounds like they would come in handy during a job interview or
something.

~~~
rquantz
I got a prescription for them from my doctor at the time (for PA, not high
blood pressure), so it should be doable. Definitely would be helpful for job
interviews too (I'm sure 20-40% of the people you see appearing before news
cameras take them also) but be aware that they can cause your mouth to be dry.
Also, try them out before the big day -- I've known people to pass out during
big performances because, you know, they can lower your blood pressure.

------
dscrd
I already take a rather dumb drug for that: coffee. And lots of it. I'd gladly
replace it with a more efficient and safer drug, preferably one that doesn't
cause a physical addiction.

------
jamestnz
@greenfieldprod: You seem to have made multiple high-quality replies in this
thread, but nobody is seeing them (and nobody can reply to them) because your
account seems to be 'hellbanned'. Some people (like me) will see your posts,
because they surf HN with 'showdead' turned on in the prefs, but most people
won't even be knowing that you exist right now.

Normally this is only applied to spammers and trolls etc, but I thought it
might be nice to let you know since you seem to be legitimately attempting to
participate here.

I'm not sure how to appeal this, aside from contacting pg or making a new
account.

No need to reply to this, not trying to derail the thread. Cheers.

------
diminoten
I wonder what kind of relationship the answer to this question has with non-
stimulated intelligence.

Do smarter people want more to be even smarter? Or do dumb people want more to
be smart?

------
AznHisoka
I'd take it if it would increase the success of my startup by a non-trivial
percentage.

Performing well at work is no guarantee of earning more money, hence I
wouldn't.

~~~
mindcrime
Agreed. I should have made that point in my own answer. Yes, I'd use, in the
course of building my startup. But I wouldn't do it for some generic salaried
job.

------
bryan_rasmussen
Would you let your child get on a bus driven by someone who wasn't taking
their prozac?

------
iamthepieman
Depending on the side effect, yes.

------
fourstar
I'd rather take mushrooms.

~~~
MichaelGG
Psychedelics seem indicated for perhaps gaining a different viewpoint on
technical designs. I believe one of the senior engineers at Cisco promoted LSD
for coming up with networking equipment ideas. I'm far from convinced that
psychedelics are good for actually working. Even the Beatles said they never
actually recorded while on LSD.

------
bingeboy
Yes, then we will end up with a singularity sooner.

