
Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead - randomgyatwork
http://abraintrust.com/strive-to-make-food-more-difficult/
======
bpicolo
While I can see that some set of people don't agree, I really love cooking.
Love eating out at all sorts of restaurants too.

Cooking gives you a unique opportunity to be experimental, algorithmic, and
potentially experience a small part of a variety of cultures. The programming
mindset maps very well to it. It's also great SO/family time when done
jointly.

For people who hate cooking, I recommend trying to find a recipe that seems
out of your league. That's what really got me going originally. Nowadays I'm
pretty confident trying to whip up nearly anything (though I'm not making
fancy, artistic-looking dishes certainly).

Home cooking has it's own challenges. Less space, still have a lot of
cleaning, and can't magically divine all sorts of cooking oils and what have
you because the scale makes it impractical.

That said, cooking for 1 is a lot less exciting for me than cooking for 2+. If
I were living alone I'd probably still eating packet Ramen a bunch.

~~~
vanwalj
As many of my friends, I love to eat and I love to cook, but unfortunately, my
time, kitchen room and budget is limited. So I prefer by far for the same
time/budget having let's say 3 poor (joylent/queal) meals and 1 excellent meal
than 4 passable meals.

~~~
bpicolo
Yeah, I definitely realize there's a big tradeoff here. I try to cook extra
for each dinner, so that my lunch the following day is leftovers. (3 sameish-
meals in a row is rough but 2 is fine by me).

Another thing that's been helpful is big roasts. turkey breast, pork shoulder,
etc are very easy to toss a quick seasoning on throw in the oven for 2-6
hours, plus are pretty cheap ($2-$3 a lb, though a bit of that is bone). Gives
you some meat to work into all sorts of things for the week with pretty low
effort cooking.

With that, a carb staple and random sauteed veg you can get pretty far.

------
squeaky-clean
I saw an ad for a kickstarter the other day. It was some durable, spill-
resistant, stain-proof, neutral colored shirt that you were meant to wear
most/all days of the week, instead of needing to choose your clothes or manage
a big wardrobe.

It used lines like "Don't you hate wasting 10-20 minutes every morning
choosing your outfit?", "Don't you hate shopping and trying on clothes that
probably won't fit?". And no, I can't say I've ever felt like that. I enjoy
the time spent dressing myself. I like shopping for clothes and thrifting.
That shirt basically wants to take away everything I like about clothes.

I guess this is how other people feel about me "eating" mostly Soylent. They
love food and don't understand how someone else would want to not spend their
time choosing or preparing food, or how someone could eat the same thing every
meal. Someone who would be interested in this shirt doesn't really care about
changing up their looks everyday or their clothes looking unique. Just that
they look decent and clean, and don't waste too much time or money doing so.
And I don't necessarily care about my food being varied or flavorful, as long
as it isn't unhealthy and is simple to prepare.

~~~
randomgyatwork
My wardrobe consists of 1 pair of jeans, 5 t-shirts, 1 sweater, wear the jeans
and sweater everyday, change the shirt.

~~~
adregan
Do you do laundry every 5 days? Maybe buy 5 more and stretch that to every 10
days.

~~~
randomgyatwork
Wear them at least twice before washing.

------
karmajunkie
I can't tell if this is satirical or not. Is knowing how to shop and prepare a
basic meal really such a problem today?

~~~
runn1ng
Speaking for myself

I don't hate cooking meals

I hate all the fuzz around it - getting ingredients - do I buy "organic"? is
that expensive? how cheap should I go?; finding the right recipes - how do I
compare 20 different ones from the web? Which are more healthy? Dietary
recommendations are all over the place - high carb / low carb / high fat / low
fat / vegan / paleo / I don't know what all is there.; finding out what I
forgot to buy, throwing out the old stuff that are starting to rot in my
fridge, then spending another hour cleaning all the mess...

The cooking part is - at least for me - always the easiest - just follow the
recipe. I hate the worrying before and after.

~~~
grzm
A lot of this fuzz would be tempered as you become more accustomed to cooking.
In some ways what you're describing is similar to picking up a new computer
language or learning a new system. Once you've been through the decision tree
enough times, you've built yourself a well-worn path.

If cooking is something you're interested in picking up, I'd recommend
starting simply. Pick a couple of meals (maybe a breakfast and a dinner). Get
used to them, then start cooking variations, then move on to other dishes.
I'll admit, I can be satisfied eating the same meal on a regular basis. And
this doesn't prevent you from going out, either.

I've heard of people having good success with the Ti Ferriss' "The Four-Hour
Chef". I'm sure there are other good references, either bound or online.

~~~
ebiester
I like The Four Hour Chef, but I don't feel like it's a great cookbook to
learn from. It's more a book about learning a skill with food as a metaphor.

~~~
grzm
Considering that was the author's stated purpose, sounds like he achieved his
goal :)

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lostmsu
This article is complete and utter bullshit.

"But think about the benefits, when you make your own meals you are saving
money, rather than paying a chief, tip, delivery fee and markup, you only pay
for the ingredients."

If you think even a little bit, it is obvious, that producing prepared food at
scale is more efficient than cooking it for yourself.

"as you learn to cook you gain an important skill, you gain independence ...
being self-sufficient"

Right, drive yourself to work instead of using mass transit, make your own
clothes, furniture, assemble your own microchips (you surely can't be a
developer/admin without a microchip, so that one is very important to be self-
sufficient). Don't forget to dig a hole and pump your own water!

Fallout is coming, we all need to cook right now!

Oh, and also it is much more interesting, than spending the same time on
reading news/books or making something for other people!

~~~
randomgyatwork
Being a little self-sufficient is better than not being self-sufficient.

You've read one article with one suggestion and made a massive sweeping
assumption about the authors intentions, good job.

~~~
lostmsu
Your statement about self-sufficiency is universally correct, but does not
make sense in the context in its current form, because noone is 100% self-
sufficient, but everyone is self-sufficient to a degree. The statement you
actually meant (assuming you had thought settled), which is: "it is always
better to be a little more self-sufficient" is definitely technically
incorrect or at least extremely dubious.

Also, irrespective of any assumption I might had (or not) about the author
from a long post, you go much further assuming you know I had one, and that
you know it from my single small comment half of which is original author's
quotes.

~~~
randomgyatwork
I was a reductio ad absurdum argument.

------
angryredblock
100% agree.

I like having a smartphone with me because it allows me to do things I
couldn't reasonably otherwise do -- but it can also be used as a crutch for
things you don't really need a smartphone for. I've started looking for ways
to solve problems that DON'T involve popping open a google window or launching
yelp. Simple stuff like memorizing routes I want to take before I start so I
can navigate with my eyes ahead rather than in my phone, asking friends for
food recommendations, keeping eyes out for posters advertising upcoming
events. For me, making life less convenient and reducing instant-gratification
is helping me enjoy the ride more.

(yes, this is 100% a first-world-problems comment)

------
newhere420
Or alternatively, consider that other people may not have the same priorities
as yourself. I say this as someone who cooks and prepares most meals from raw,
fresh ingredients: it is time consuming, tiring and often boring. If you're a
two parent household with very limited time, and you have to choose between
spending that time with your children or spending it cooking - why is the
virtuous choice necessarily to cook?

To make tasty, varied, high quality food is not even always as cheap and
healthy as one might imagine. Fresh ingredients go bad quickly, and can
sometimes be difficult to source, so you have to plan carefully. Many of us
live in small apartments with limited space for preparing food and small
refrigerators. We work long days, and both adults need to work now. Saving
time on planning, buying ingredients, cooking and washing dishes is very
appealing.

Why do many people think food should be immune from innovation? We have
replaced manual clothes washing with automated washing machines, most people
now take their car to a mechanic rather than mending it themselves.

~~~
codingdave
Why is it a choice between spending time with children and cooking? I use
shopping as a chance to take a kid with me and get some time together. They
help me prep the food and cook it, too.

Sure, when they were babies and toddlers, it wasn't practical. But I've found
that both your life, and the life of your children is better when you
integrate them into the work that needs done and the life you want to live,
and do not treat spending time with them as a separate activity.

~~~
newhere420
Surely that depends on the age of the child, what you're cooking, and the
size/accessibility of your kitchen?

Personally, I live with a kitchen that can't reasonably fit more than one
person, and all the counters are inaccessible to children.

~~~
codingdave
Yes, of course, tiny children are limited in how much they can participate.
But not as much as you might think at first glance. We built platforms for
them to stand on, so as soon as they were on their feet, they could access the
counters. And we could slide the platforms away when we were working with
anything that might harm them. As they grow up, simple footstools work, then
eventually they are tall enough to work with you just as an adult would.

Likewise, when they are tiny, you don't really give them knives or anything.
But they can see what is going on, you can talk to them. They learn quickly.
My kids have been making their own lunches since they were 6, starting with
simple thigns like sandwiches or nachos. My 10 year old frequently cooks
breakfast for the family -- eggs, pancakes, waffles, etc. My 8 year old does
simpler things - grilled cheese, mostly.

Give kids a chance - they may surprise you.

As far as working in small spaces where people do not fit, that does sound
like more of a challenge. But parenting is full of problem-solving
opportunities.

~~~
newhere420
I am glad you have found a way to incorporate your children into your lives in
this way. And I would hope many parents attempt to do the same thing. When
growing up, I cooked from a young age (about 7) simply because both of my
parents worked two jobs, so if I didn't cook, I wouldn't get fed.

But I think many people lose perspective on this. There are a large number of
people who, once they have finished their long hours at work, finished their
>1hr commute home, washed the clothes, taken the kids to their activities,
picked them up from school, cleaned the house, helped with the homework, etc.
find that they do not have time to dedicate to cooking. Often, these are
poorer people, they may live a long distance from a good supermarket, and
simply buying fresh groceries is a challenge.

Knowing people in this situation personally, they feel extremely guilty and
regretful over the fact they can't make their kids nutritious home cooked
meals every day. People not in that situation often don't realise that buying
a freezer full of frozen meals and a cupboard full of tinned pasta/beans is
often more cost effective than trying to plan buying fresh food such that it
doesn't spoil - given the inherent variability in how long fresh food tends to
last. And arguably, more importantly to individuals with cashflow issues, is
the stability. When you buy that frozen Mac & Cheese dinner, you know that $1
is going to feed your child for an evening. And that meal is going to cost the
same next week, and the week after. It's simpler to budget that way. If you
buy locally sourced, organic head of lettuce at the farmers market - it might
last two days, it might last two weeks - there's not really any way of
knowing.

I know many people who take great pleasure in cooking with the family at the
weekend, but don't have time in the week. So from Monday to Friday, they live
from prepackaged frozen food, takeouts. Innovation in this space would be
welcome - but simply telling people to "make time" to cook isn't going to
change anything. Making Mon-Fri cheaper and healthier might make room for
higher quality food at the weekend, though.

------
colept
I gave up Soylent a couple weeks ago because of how many carbohydrates it has
(33g per bottle). I would drink a bottle and the hunger would subside, but two
hours later the appetite was much stronger. Since preparing my own meals,
choosing low-carb, I'm hungry less and can go 4-5 hours between meals. Have
never felt better.

~~~
TrinaryWorksToo
This was a little hard for me to figure out,but somehow I'm losing weight by
eating fewer carbs. It's hard sometimes to figure out exactly what I'm hungry
for. If I eat veggies the hunger subsides, but then I get very hungry, fast.
If I eat fats, the hunger doesn't go away, but I feel like it helps prevent
hunger in the future.

I've been eating to be satiated, because I know I have enough calories to
live.

I just found [this
article]([http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224414...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224414002386))
and it seems to reflect what I personally experience.

------
jplahn
Soylent (or more particularly Coffiest) has been perfect for filling the 3pm
spot at work when I'm both tired and hungry. I used to head out for a $5
coffee and stay hungry, but now I can use Coffiest to do a decent enough job
of satisfying both cravings while saving some money.

That being said, I would never replace any of my other primary meals with it
because I love cooking too much. I typically spend an hour or two on Sunday
making two meals of 4 - 6 servings that will last me through the entire week
and then I take off Friday and Saturday and eat out.

------
JulianMorrison
Soylent exists because people don't want to cook. Don't want the time sliced
out of their day. Don't care about variety and flavour. Would be happy to
ignore food as an issue.

Telling them to cook really just amounts to ignoring their priorities.

------
rietta
I have not been tempted by such products in the least. I frankly find it
personally unappealing in the extreme. The easiest thing in the world to cook
is eggs, which I could eat all the time. I also live within walking distance
of not one, but two grocery stores. My wife likes to cook and pick out her
favorite organic foods. I prefer to look at the unit price and go for the
lowest. Restaurant food is nice, but it ends up being very much more expensive
on a monthly basis if you eat it too much. Today is our anniversary and in the
break between conference calls this morning, I've already been to the store
and back with fresh cut steaks to put on the grill after work. We're going to
eat so good tonight and at a fraction of the cost of a eating out for our
special night which is appealing to both my wife and me.

------
ebiester
What bothers me about this anti-convenience backlash is that it comes from a
"stop being lazy and make the time for something I think you should find
important" approach.

If people find value in it, they will take the time to cook. I learned to cook
because I found value in it. Others don't, and that's okay. I really like that
I can bring something to a pot luck and everyone likes it, or that I can bring
joy to a friend for a meal -- that's something I value.

If you don't value that, it's fine. We make choices.

If you are on this site and value it but don't know how to start, take a
class. Most people here are in a place where they can afford six weeks of
classes to learn the basics. But doing it out of guilt is silly.

~~~
randomgyatwork
Good advice on taking a class.

What if people haven't thought of the benefits that this article is
suggesting?

~~~
ebiester
It's entirely possible, but I've shared my story with hundreds of people and
talked with them about cooking. This is less impressive than it sounds -- I've
done a fair number of pot lucks and been in a fair number of conversations
where I shared the story of how, why, and when I learned how to cook. It
happened in multiple stages, but all of them happened when I was out on my own
and got tired of eating out. First, with roommates, I learned how to cook the
absolute basics. Then, I had another roommate that helped me expand my
horizons. He was vegetarian, so I had to learn another set of cooking
techniques I hadn't before. Then, I moved into my own apartment where I
realized that I couldn't make the food I really wanted to eat. I started
watching the food network obsessively, learning everything I could, and trying
new things.

However, it happened at the phase of life when I was ready for it. And when
I've mentioned this in conversation, I don't remember anyone saying, "I don't
need to know how to cook" or "I don't need to learn to cook more than the
basics." It's "I don't have time," or "I don't enjoy cooking/cleaning," or
"I'm too afraid to mess up."

As I've grown older, it's changed. I'm around mostly people in their thirties
and most people had the same experience as I did where they realized they had
reached a point in life where they needed to learn to cook.

Now, _I_ realize that I'm a mediocre cook and anyone with a mere week in a
decent restaurant is likely a better cook than me. However, I acquired a
reputation of a good amateur cook in some circles. I couldn't imagine being in
a place where I didn't cook well - it brings so much to my life. I just think
the shaming over it all doesn't work because the motivations don't line up.

------
weavie
A couple of tomatoes, 1 cucumber, 2 peeled carrots, a lump of cheese, sweet
potato microwaved for 5 minutes, tin of tuna or some lumps of beef or bacon
quickly fried. Drizzle in olive oil, sprinkle a little salt.

Preparing your own food doesn't have to be that complicated.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Open can, deposit contents in pan, heat in microwave for 5 minutes.

Open box, deposit in container, add milk

Take sandwich, apply peanut butter

------
throwaway1280
I'm a pretty reasonable cook, actually. I spent a couple of years challenging
myself to improve: I can make a reasonable pizza with home-made base and sauce
(albeit American deep pan style rather than Italian), I'm fond of cooking
Chinese food (because in the UK takeaway Chinese is very hit-and-miss), and I
enjoy baking.

I haven't done any of that for years, because now I'm living with crippling
depression, and I often face the choice of spending my energy for the day on
work, on housework, on life maintenance, or on eating well. I only get to
choose one at the most. So most days I live on ready meals, supermarket pizza,
pasta, etc. I buy Joylent (EU version of Soylent) because I reckon it's got
more nutritional value than most of the ready meals I'm eating, and it's very
quick to make - useful on days when I have to drag myself out of the house and
don't have time for breakfast. It's also cheap - which is good, because
depression means that I don't get many billable hours worked these days.

So, yeah. I'm probably nowhere near the common case here, but I just wanted to
present a case study to show that not all of us meal-replacement users are
just "people who haven't learned to cook properly yet" or "people who don't
care about food". We're a diverse bunch.

~~~
throwaway1280
Forgot to point out: I'm piscetarian as well. Which seems like a ridiculous
self-imposed challenge ;)

That makes getting ready-made food harder, too: my supermarket only does a
couple of vegetarian/seafood ready-meals per category (two curries, three
italian meals, no Chinese meals at all!) so I find myself eating a very
monotonous diet anyway.

Nevertheless, I don't use Joylent full-time: I just have a box in my cupboard
for when I need an emergency meal or just can't face another plastic tub of
macaroni cheese.

------
foodthrowaway73
Skip the grocery store. Are our lives really getting better if we depend on
other farmers for our most basic food requirements? In fact, skip agriculture
entirely. Let's all become hunter gatherers again and return to our true human
nature.

Thought experiment: what do you imagine the diet of the average human will
look like 100 years from now? 200? I'd wager that if your answer involves a
grocery store, fresh produce, slaughtered livestock, etc. then you're
mistaken.

~~~
yellowapple
There's a big difference between grocery shopping (where even within one store
- let alone multiple stores - you have access to a mind-boggling variety of
foods, brands, etc.) and a pre-packaged service like Soylent or Hello Fresh /
Blue Apron / whatever else is out there. Not only is the number of available
options significantly greater, but the price is significantly lower.

I'd wager that if _your_ answer to the future human diet in that timescale
relies primarily upon such pre-packaged subscription services, then you're
even more mistaken.

------
foodthrowaway73
Skip the grocery store. Are our lives really getting better if we depend on
other farmers for our most basic food requirements? In fact, skip agriculture
entirely. Let's all become hunter gatherers again and return to our true human
nature.

Thought experiment: what do you imagine the diet of the average human will
look like 100 years from now? 200? I'd wager that if your answer involves a
grocery store, fresh produce, slaughtered livestock, etc. then you'll be
wrong.

~~~
randomgyatwork
Lets keep the dream alive!

------
eljimmy
I'm amazed at how many people use Soylent. IMO its a very poor meal
replacement. Their key ingredient is Maltodextrin which is a heavily processed
sugar that is often marketed as a healthy complex carbohydrate. You may as
well be pounding back dextrose (corn syrup).

I urge any HN users that use Soylent to really give meal preparation a try.
You can prepare a dozen health meals in half an hour on Sunday night and your
lunches and snacks for a whole week will be good to go.

------
ZeroFries
Or consider nature's meal replacements: milk and fruit juice. Believe it or
not, this would be less hypoglycemic-prone than Soylent, since fructose is
less insulinogenic than starch, and have a better micronutrient profile. Check
out the work of Ray Peat if interested in learning more.

~~~
kevinfc
I'm no where near an expert on the subject, But I have heard convincing
arguments[1] that fructose is very bad for you (especially when concentrated
in a fruit drink).

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM)

~~~
ZeroFries
I'm not a biochemistry expert either, so I have to defer to the arguments of
others. I find Ray Peat more convincing than Lustig. It also makes sense to me
that fructose, especially from fruit, is incredibly healthy to humans, since
pretty much every ape gets a good chunk of their calories from fruit.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXqoAhZtVmg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXqoAhZtVmg)

------
roq
Making a meal is a science. Making a good, balanced, healthy meal is something
everyone should know but I don't think everyone is willing to do so. It takes
time, practice and patience.

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path" and
cooking your meal every time!

------
Tade0
I don't agree with the premise of the article. I bake my own bread and it's no
more difficult than making pancakes. Also much healthier since I use less than
half the salt that's put into what you can get at the store.

------
dxbydt
Say Jack choose to make a meal everyday, while Jill chooses the Soylent. If
both Jack and Jill start at the same baseline weight and both eat the same
number of calories via meal or via Soylent, who is going to lose weight faster
?

------
SixSigma
Get an electric pressure cooker and cook once a week.

~~~
Tharkun
Meal prepping can be lots of fun. If you're in to that sort of thing,
/r/MealPrepSunday has some pretty good suggestions.

