
The New Austrian Railways' Intercity and Nightjet Sleeper Train Interior Design - Osiris30
https://www.priestmangoode.com/project/new-intercity-and-nightjet/
======
munificent
I recently took a train from Seattle to Portland with my family. One
difference compared to flying that it took me a while to realize was how
amazingly _quiet_ it is.

On a plane, the engines are _right there_ out on the wing screaming and
conducting that sound directly into the airframe next to you. With a train,
the engine is _way_ up front, hundreds of yards a way, separated by several
linkages.

The end result is that a train car is as quiet as a coffee shop. I love it.

~~~
legitster
Love that route. Also, on a train the ride is so much smoother - no starts or
stop or dealing with traffic.

The pricing is nuts, though. A one way train ticket for that route is $36. The
same trip via car takes about the same amount of time and $20 in gas. The
train is a nice luxury for one person, but for the whole family it becomes
very expensive.

Passenger rail in the US is absurd.

~~~
ceejayoz
> A one way train ticket for that route is $36. The same trip via car takes
> about the same amount of time and $20 in gas.

Don't forget wear and tear on the car, though.

The IRS sets mileage at 58 cents/mile. That's $100 for Seattle to Portland.

~~~
bluGill
Most of the costs of a car are fixed once you own it. Wear and tears per mile
is actually small. Insurance is the same for a car driven 7000 miles a year as
one driven 30,000. there is a small discount for less than 7000 miles/year,
but it is still fixed. Likewise the car payment doesn't change at all.

The IRS has to come up with a fair number that translates all those fixed
costs into per/mile. It is a good financial number, but worthless for this
discussion.

~~~
c22
It's only worthless to this discussion if you hold the basic assumption that
everyone should own a car.

~~~
mymythisisthis
We've hit peak car in North America. This new generation will see car
ownership go down.

Less car ownership on the horizon; 1)Cities are congested 2)The congestion in
the suburbs is even worse than driving in downtown 3)For years the solution
was to build more highways, but land for doing so is running out 4)Car
ownership is no longer cool 5)Ride sharing and renting is become easier (GPS,
Internet, Smartphones) 6)Cars have become safer, but the joy or riding in them
has been killed. It's like being trapped in an egg carton.

------
dougmwne
This design is wonderful and it reminds me a of 21st century version of this:
[https://www.belmond.com/trains/europe/venice-simplon-
orient-...](https://www.belmond.com/trains/europe/venice-simplon-orient-
express/)

Train travel can be absolutely luxurious in a way that a plane or self-driving
car could never be. You don't even need to book a $3,000 historical
reenactment to get a taste. On a whim, I once booked a 1st class AVE train in
Spain for an extra $10 and ended up with bottomless wine/champagne and a
several course dinner for 3 hours. Would I ride a chicken bus for 7 hours
through Honduras? Sure, but there are points for style too.

~~~
joezydeco
The information displays built into the viewing window frames are very nice,
but you already know those will be the first things to get thrown out for cost
and/or complexity.

~~~
fyfy18
Or the first place where they will start blasting you with adverts.

------
Freak_NL
Österreichische Bundesbahnen (ÖBB) took over all remaining sleepers run by
Deutsche Bahn (DB) some years ago. One downside of this was the dropping of
the Amsterdam–Munich sleeper — ÖBB's nexus lies in Vienna. The Netherlands
currently has no sleeper trains, which is rather unfortunate, because the
sleeper train appears to gaining in popularity after a period of decline.

Increasingly, people want to avoid flying if reasonably possible. A sleeper
train is ideal, because you spend most of the trip asleep, and end up in
Munich, Paris, Vienna, etc. early in the morning, in the middle of the city.

Sure, it's not as comfortable as a hotel, but it beats the torture of flying
(I'm 200cm tall), and train stations are just a lot more pleasant to be in
than airports.

These trains looks really nice.

~~~
distances
Then problem of price still remains before wide popularity for sleepers or
even just long daytrips. I'd love to use trains more often, but I'm not
willing to pay through the nose. A trip in Central Europe I recently booked
would've been over twice the price with a train, with maybe a couple of hours
longer travel time when accounting for airport trips and waiting. Second
class, just a daytime journey without sleeping.

Timewise this would've been fine, but price is not competitive. I'm not sure
if the problem is too cheap flights, or too expensive trains.

~~~
alkonaut
The EU should force a carbon tax on plane fuel for intra-EU flights and
subsidize rail with the money.

~~~
cylicbob
The saddest part of this statement is that the European rail system is
MASSIVELY subsidized even at the price points that the person you responded to
described as "paying out the nose", which of course is a somewhat subjective
position for a European to say, because their already lower salaries are
massively taxed and to pay for the subsidized rail systems the gleeful
Americans can gush about being so cheap when they return to the USA and demand
socialism.

I'll take Austin's local light rail train as an example to illustrate what I
mean. I once looked into the finances and financing sources to get the system
stood up, and I worked out that it would be around a $30-$35 trip from one end
in the middle of the city to the outskirts of Austin's Leander township if the
actual cost of the system were paid for by the rider.

It is immensely deceptive and rather dumb that these realities are simply
ignored, especially by seemingly otherwise rather intelligent people that
congregate here.

At the very least, there should not only be the direct cost per ticket if it
were not heavily subsidized by taxes of Europeans, which non-Europeans should
have to pay, and the price that is subsidized that Europeans pay. It is really
rather immensely immoral to ride on the train at a cost that is heavily
subsidized by wildly immoral tax levels (e.g., 100% on gasoline, 20% on sales
of goods, ~35% of income that is also 70% of what it is in places like the
USA).

~~~
mikepurvis
Air travel is massively subsidized too (airport construction, airline and
manufacturer bailouts); as is highway travel (automaker bailouts, free trade
supply chain, environmental externalities, health costs associated with
driving and sprawl, plus gas taxes which cover only a small proportion of
actual construction and maintenance costs).

It's difficult to do a true apples to apples comparison, especially when
highways are also justified in part as a national security asset. But it's a
little much to clutch pearls about subsidies for rail ("immoral", really?)
without acknowledging how subsidized the alternatives are as well.

~~~
gruez
>free trade supply chain

free trade is hardly a subsidy.

~~~
mikepurvis
That really depends on your perspective. A "conventional" subsidy can be
understood as a reverse tax— instead of paying money into the general pot for
the privilege of engaging in some harmful/productive/profitable activity, you
are paid money _out_ of the general pot as a benefit for engaging in some
activity seen by the government as desirable or beneficial.

Cutting taxes in any form is a subsidy relative to what went before, whether
or not the end state is above, at, or below the zero point.

More concretely, if an automaker previously bought widgets from a local
supplier for $10, but now buys them from overseas for $8 because of free
trade, that's effectively a $2-per-widget subsidy. You can argue that it's a
market efficiency and that most of the benefits are passed to the end consumer
anyway so whatever, but when you get far enough down that path, then there are
no widgets being made locally any more, which is the real cost of having
subsidized the import of them by cutting taxes to zero.

------
ganonm
Sleeper trains make so much sense for travel over land. They are often
competitively priced with air travel, they pollute a lot less and the time
saved can be huge when you consider that you spend time travelling when you
would otherwise be asleep (although this is sometimes true for air travel,
many/most people find it difficult to get quality sleep in economy class).

The London - Edinburgh sleeper train (Caledonian Express) has been running
pretty much since 1873 and is an amazing way to get between the two cities.
You arrive at the station in London between 10-12pm, depending on if you want
to have a few snacks or glasses of wine, then wake up in Edinburgh around 8am
the next day.

~~~
Freak_NL
The Caledonian Express is definitely on my list of trains to travel by some
day. Pretty soon (when the customs part is sorted out on the Amsterdam end) it
will be possible to travel from Amsterdam to London directly on the Eurostar
without transferring in Brussels, so that helps too for me as a Dutchman.

~~~
arien
I've been on a fair amount of sleeper trains and the Caledonian has been the
most comfortable so far.

For the opposite, the most uncomfortable one to sleep in was the Hong Kong to
Shanghai one. I paid extra for the Deluxe option, can't even imagine how hard
the bed would have been on the lower classes. Still, was a pretty cool
journey.

~~~
nhf
I think that's just an (northeast) Asian bed thing. Preferences trend firm for
mattresses and you can see this in traditional or luxury places that don't
cater to Westerners. The most deluxe ryokans in Japan still have relatively
thin mats on the floor, business hotels in China and Japan often have former
mattresses, and so on.

------
michaelbuckbee
One high-level design choice that they made is to entirely skip any kind of
in-seat entertainment and screens and instead of plan around people showing up
with their own tablets and phones (to which they provide power). This makes
immense sense to me and I'm sure simplifies things on their side.

~~~
alistairSH
Agreed. Southwest Airlines does this in the US, with "free" wifi access to
their entertainment app/portal. I much prefer it to the often terrible seat-
back screens on some other carriers.

~~~
ohples
I have even seen on some airlines (Alaska) that are doing away with seat backs
screens on newer flights you can pay to rent a tablet if you don't already
have one, want an extra one, etc.

------
tomglynch
There's been talk for a while about autonomous cars driving people throughout
the night across countries/states for meetings the next day. Sleeper trains
already do this. Sleeper trains are making a comeback as we become more aware
of the impact of flying to the environment.

~~~
gpvos
Nevertheless, the number of people taking the plane isn't going down, while
that should be the real aim.

------
TKAB
As a regular train traveller here in Austria and I'm very curious how this
turns out.

Currently the Intercity/RailJet trains are more like a downgrade to what was
available before. They look nicer, but provide quite uncomfortable seating and
offer no possibility to change the seating inclination; due to the air
condition it's very noisy; there's no place to put your feet in an elevated
position; there's no compartments, the whole car is one big room; and the only
option for children is an open place with a TV, you have a lot of fun chasing
your small children through the train.

~~~
acqq
I'm sure I couldn't sleep in the upper bed here:

[https://www.priestmangoode.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/03/Pr...](https://www.priestmangoode.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/03/PriestmanGoode-OBB-Night-Train-First-Class.jpg)

Enclosing beds to make them a kind of cradle is bad. The good design would add
space not stuff. There's a reason older trains didn't have that.

Typical design made on computer that nobody tried to use (or not enough users
to say how bad it is).

I've also traveled in the newer trains in Europe that were significantly worse
than the older, again for having less space everywhere. It's a bad trend.

~~~
morsch
It looks fine to me? What's wrong with it? Many people are worried about
falling out of the upper bed in sleeper cars. There's often a rail there. The
"half cradle" offers the same protection against falling, while making it
easier to get in from the foot end. It provides protection against light,
noise and drafts.

The foot end is a bit narrower than the overall bed, which is also a smart use
of space and, again, makes getting into the bed easier.

This is also the first sleeper cabin I've seen where the window seems to be
parallel beside the bed as opposed to orthogonal at one end.

------
ixtli
What I wouldn't give for even the slightest interested in the development of
public transit infrastructure in the US :(

~~~
closeparen
Amtrak runs extensive sleeper service around the US. I’ve taken San Francisco
to Chicago - it’s quite nice, if you’re willing to burn some vacation days.

~~~
ixtli
I am, and I plan to :)

------
deanclatworthy
Having travelled a couple of times on overnight trains from Austria to other
European cities, these sleeping pods look marginally a larger improvement.

\- Tempeature: Having slept in a cabin where the aircon blasts from the bottom
into those sleeping there, they inevitably have to turn it off to sleep,
leaving those on the top bunks at temperatures of over 40C in the summer.

\- Noise/Privacy: In the 4-bunk cabins, I don't want to hear anyone either.
Why wouldn't they include the soundproofing curtains in those too.

\- Space: There's a tiny gap between the beds currently. Look closely and this
is also the case. It's impossible having more than 1 person do anything
inbetween the beds and stepping out of your own pretty much puts you about
1foot away from the other person's face/legs.

Maybe someone can tell me why they can't just make lightweight carriages, and
put a lot of them on the back of a train car (more than now). By having more
carriages you can make the accommodation more spacious and comfortable. This
is what stops me considering it as a viable option for European travel
currently. Even if they couldn't fit in the station, what's to stop them
letting half the carriages off first, followed by the second half?

~~~
em-bee
trains longer than the station would double the time at each stop. that's not
acceptable. but also, most stations are not designed to have trains longer
than the station. a station usually has more platforms than the two rails that
feed it. an overlong train would frequently block other trains coming in at
other platforms.

the only thing that would work is to have two trains on the same route in a
short delay from each other. say half an hour.

however, for all of this the real problem is cost. i believe germany dropped
all overnight trains because they weren't getting used enough compared to
high-speed trains. it's interesting that austria bought them, but i guess with
austrias lack of high-speed trains, overnight trains are still useful.

~~~
deanclatworthy
Two trains would suit me just fine. Or three. As long as they are serving
customers I don't see the problem.

I'd guess people weren't using them because they are so cramped and
uncomfortable. I would bet they could be economical and comfortable when the
whole process is designed from scratch. I don't think this exercise feels like
that.

~~~
improbable22
You should think that the cost is basically per floor area. The cars are
already as light as they are willing to go (for crash safety etc). The minimum
acceptable space gets you to a price that a trainload of people per day can
afford.

The beds with their own screens look nicer than the ones in trains I've taken
(and at comparable density) and far far nicer than anything in the air I've
ever had. (Also nicer than the airport lounges I've slept in between
flights...) There are also private cabins which I'm sure cost double.

------
amit9gupta
The images are computer generated graphics, not real photographs taken with a
camera.

~~~
ekianjo
Expect vandalism to take place in such trains in no time when they get to
operate.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
OeBB takes great care of their trains. If they get sprayed they are removed
from service and cleaned.

------
api
I wish we actually invested in domestic infrastructure in the US.

------
marapuru
What a great design. I like the simplicity and the lightness of it all.

One thing I don't understand is the private berths.

> Private berths are fitted in both First and Standard Class carriages and can
> be booked for business passengers or families travelling together.

They are completely transparent, nice for the lightness. But bad for privacy.
I can see many reasons why a business meeting would not want prying eyes.

For me it has been a common issue in the past to be traveling while working on
private files. But having a person sitting next to you doesn't allow for
enough privacy... So usually I just stopped working, while that could be a big
plus of train travel.

~~~
gomox
If you often do this there are privacy films for your computer screen that
drastically reduce horizontal viewing angles and greatly improve privacy.

------
2sk21
Given how bad domestic plane travel has become in the US, I suspect that many
business trips may not be much slower even at Amtrak speeds.

~~~
NickM
I've certainly found that to be the case when traveling to NYC. From where I
live, a plane ride takes about an hour, and Amtrak takes about 6.5
hours...except that really, the total trip time ends up being about five hours
for the plane and seven hours for the train. Flying involves driving twenty
minutes to the airport, arriving early due to uncertain security wait times,
going through security, waiting to board, boarding, taxiing, flying, taxiing,
disembarking from the plane, and then even after all that you have to walk a
long way through the airport, take the AirTrain to a different station, then
get on yet another train to make it into Manhattan.

The train, by contrast, involves leaving from downtown near where I live,
sitting on the train, and arriving in Manhattan a few blocks from my office.
It's so much simpler and more relaxing, and much easier to actually get work
done during the trip, so oftentimes it's worth the extra couple of hours the
trip takes. If we could invest in high-speed rail and make the whole train
trip even, say, 30% faster, there would be no contest.

------
Animats
Compare the 20th Century Limited, 1930s version.[1]

[1]
[https://s.hdnux.com/photos/77/13/43/16562379/3/1024x1024.jpg](https://s.hdnux.com/photos/77/13/43/16562379/3/1024x1024.jpg)

------
learc83
Looks very nice, but I don't like the table design. The extensions that pull
out look like they don't provide a continuous level surface, which would just
be a pain to use. Amtrak (at least the cars on the Acela Express) has a much
better design where each side of the table flips up when you want to enter or
exit the seat. It doesn't look quite as nice when folded up, but it is much
more functional.

[https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/p...](https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/images/TextwithImage-
Horizontal/RS1000_business_handicapped.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/cq5dam.web.506.380.jpeg)

------
stcredzero
I wonder if digitally linked convoys of cars and vehicles could replicate the
smoother and quieter experience of trains, even on busy highways? The idea
would be to use several "buffer cars" in front of the convoy of passenger
busses. The entire convoy would be inter-linked and centrally controlled, so
the "buffer cars" could accordion closer together and farther apart, so the
passenger busses could use lighter braking acceleration. Build the busses with
lots of sound damping and actively damped suspensions, and the experience
could come close to that of a train.

The buffer cars would take up some additional highway area, but the passenger
density of the convoy as a whole could still exceed private passenger cars.

------
ekianjo
2x2 facing seats in standard class? What an horrible idea - I have never
understood why this was a standard in about every wagon since most of the time
when you get this seat you get to share it with strangers, and lack leg space
to feel comfortable.

~~~
rebuilder
It's good for groups and families. I'd expect not all seats are arranged that
way.

~~~
ekianjo
It's not, but my point still stands: by far and large there are way too many
seats in that configuration compared to the planned utility for it. You end up
with regular passengers having to fit such seats and having a miserable
experience. It never happens on a flight.

------
nneonneo
I slept on a fair number of sleeper trains during multiple trips to China.
It’s basically the most popular way to get around the country. A few years
ago, Xuzhou-Xi’an, a 10 hour trip, was priced at 315¥ (around $50 USD) for
each “soft bed” (four soft beds to a room), which was perfect for a travelling
family.

Recently, the high-speed rail lines have started to shift things in favor of
daytime trips between large cities (Beijing-Xuzhou used to be 7 hours by
sleeper train, but it’s now 2.5 hours by bullet train). But, the train remains
the best way to travel within the country. It’s smooth, quite cheap (esp. for
an American traveler), and increasingly comfortable.

------
keeganjw
If only the US had trains this nice... One can dream. This really looks
spectacular.

~~~
finolex1
The new Acela Express trains don't look too shabby.

~~~
vonmoltke
Of only we could get the tracks to take advantage of them. Oh, and cut several
stops off it as well.

------
Grumbledour
Those trains look nice, but at the same time pretty cramped and uncomfortable
to me. I wonder if its just the photos, but the seats look to straight with
not much legroom and the sleeper compartments seem really tiny.

~~~
deanclatworthy
And the photos attached are primarily first-class seats too. I found it odd
having two seats next to each other without an armrest or gap in-between. I
would not want a stranger next to me without that space/divider.

~~~
finolex1
There are arm rests between the seats if you look closely in the first few
pictures. It seems like you have to pull them up from the seat bottom.

------
objektif
As a side note recently traveled from US to Austria. I was blown away by how
clean, beautiful and affordable the country is. But we can’t have the things
they have over there cuz “who is gonna pay for it”?

------
lbriner
One of the things that doesn't appear to have any real innovation is luggage
space and the speed of loading. Get on any long-distance train or Eurostar
service and you can wait minutes for people to drag 4 suitcases, trying to
find space. Even on the Eurostar where you would expect most people to have a
lot of luggage, there is often not much room at all.

We used to have luggage vans back in the olden days!

------
arien
Slightly off-topic, but couldn't help but notice on the Projects list a really
cool version of the London tube. Unfortunately it seems it's from 2014
(there's even some quote from Boris as Mayor), so probably scrapped by now?

Makes me wonder if these Austrian train designs are already set in stone or
just a proposal that might or might not happen.

~~~
rkangel
That design is extremely close to the new design of train in use on the circle
line. The seating arrangement is a little different and they use monochrome
LED signboards rather than LCD (for sensible reasons), but the continuous
unobstructed design is there, along with actual aircon.

It's an impressive sight to look from one end of the interior to the other
when it's not full of people (and going straight).

~~~
arien
Yeah, I've seen those, but they are slightly different and have been available
for a few years already (I believe before 2014, the date of this project, but
I could be wrong).

I'm glad to see on the other reply that the plan hasn't been scrapped. Some of
the lines could really use new trains (with proper air ventilation/filtering,
especially).

------
sb057
Those landscape images bear a striking resemblance to Albert Bierstadt's
paintings of the American West[1], but I don't want to go pointing fingers...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Albert_Bierst...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Albert_Bierstadt)

------
ianbooker
Finally I see someone realizing the "hovering" seats in a train. Anytime I sit
in a train, I wonder why they have not done so for the last 30 years or so.

While they state its for luggage and design purposes, I just think: Its so
much easier to clean. Even automatically ;)

~~~
Dunedan
> Anytime I sit in a train, I wonder why they have not done so for the last 30
> years or so.

My guess: Ease of installation and for stability reasons. Bolting the seats to
the outer frame probably requires much more consideration than simply bolting
them to the floor.

------
Havoc
Really enjoyed a recent European rail trip but quickly discovered mixing
flight and rail is problematic if the links between airport and train station
suck

~~~
205guy
The French tried: both Paris CDG and Lyon airports have TGV stations in them.
There was a time the trains were even code-shared and you could book them as
regular connections.

It was very convenient when it worked, for example from the US to other cities
or ski resorts in France. But that was 10 years ago, and I haven't looked into
it recently, so I'm not sure if they developed it or not.

------
meddlepal
Those chairs do not look comfortable. No lumbar support!

------
jschwartzi
In the US I would take a sleeper train from Seattle to Chicago instead of a
plane provided the sleeper train runs 180 mph on average. That would put me in
Chicago in about 10-12 hours, meaning I could get to Union Station in Seattle,
get on the train, sleep a full night, wake up, eat breakfast, and disembark in
Chicago.

The red-eye to Chicago, which is a comparable trip, really sucks because you
only get about 3 hours of sleep in the most uncomfortable position imaginable.
This means that you arrive in the city groggy and discombobulated.

I would even pay airfare-level prices for that kind of service. And extra if
there's a way to segregate families with small children from my cabin so I
don't have to try to remain asleep while a toddler is screaming for 3 hours in
the same cabin.

~~~
CaptainZapp
_In the US I would take a sleeper train from Seattle to Chicago instead of a
plane provided the sleeper train runs 180 mph on average._

Not really doable for a lot of Austria and generally the Alpine regions.

There are not many high speed tracks in Austria and Switzerland, the reason
being that the countries are relatively small and that building high speed
tracks through the alps is insanely expensive.

Switzerland built two base tunnels through the alps: The Lötschberg[1] - and
Gotthard[2] base tunnels, which are geared to a top speed of 250 km/h (ca. 155
miles/h) and a normal travel speed of 200 km/h (125).

That's why it takes roughly 10 hours to get from Zurich to Vienna, but only 4
to get from Zurich to Paris (after Mulhouse the whole track is high speed
capable and trains run with up to 320 kmh (200 m) on that track.

Edited to add: Of course night trains make a lot of sense on that route.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6tschberg_Base_Tunnel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6tschberg_Base_Tunnel)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel)

~~~
undersuit
TBF the Rockies are no easy passage either. Amtrak runs on the Hi-Line year
round, over 2200 miles.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Builder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Builder)

~~~
jschwartzi
This is a good 3-4 days of constant train travel to get to the destination.
The thing I'm complaining about is that the plane is almost too fast for what
I want to use it for, while the train is incredibly slow.

It would be cool if there were a way for me to leave Seattle on Sunday night
and arrive in Chicago on Monday morning having gotten a full night of sleep.

------
dzhiurgis
Elegant, comfortable travel across Europe *

* For people exact height of 160cm

~~~
alkonaut
The beds are surely at least 2m? What makes it uncomfortable for someone over
160?

~~~
chrisseaton
Why are they 'surely' at least 2m? The beds on the Caledonian aren't that
long. A standard (not King) bed is only 190 cm in most countries. You're not
going to get a King-length bed on a train - that's not a reasonable
expectation.

~~~
alkonaut
Im 180 and never felt a difference in length from my home bed to the sleeper
train beds. They may be shorter but not so much that it bothered me. That’s
why I assumed they were the same as home beds (standard length in Europe is
200).

