
F-Droid Dropping Firefox - dvdyzag
https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.firefox
======
icebraining
They aren't really dropping Firefox, they are just dropping the official build
for a custom one:
[https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.fenn...](https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.fennec_fdroid)

It's no different that Debian with Iceweasel.

~~~
gcb0
Not so correct.

debian's Iceweasel is a little squabble about the logo not being licensed
correctly. they only divert official version to add the -debianXXX when they
backport security patches on the stable branch. They never removed anything.
apart from branding. They even upstreamed the branding agnostic flags so they
don't have to change even that!

FDroid's fork is now a move against binary blobs. And copious tracking. They
are taking back firefox (pun intended). From the announce: "It __removes __the
proprietary binaries out of the official builds. " [emphasis mine]

There was already discussion on the community when mozilla decided to make
the, then optional by effort of contributors, google play api on the android
build... just so a really small portion of users could share youtube videos to
chrome cast (like anyone uses firefox to watch videos they care so much they
want to see on the TV...). Everyone reaching the IRC on how to build without
the proprietary google dependency was ignored. But some soldiered on. There
was even a PaleMoon build on the play store just for that! (palemoon were
mostly to avoid the new australis UI, which breaks lots of OS
usability/accessibility features just to copy chrome).

Now, on top of the google play api (which now is not just for chrome cast, but
also for tracking. ha! didn't see that coming did you?) they added adobe DRM,
which will probably reach android soon.

I sure do hope that incite the rest of the community as it incites me. I've
been running fennec build laboriously myself on my phones for a while. And i
hope i now have the time to stop that nonsense and contribute to fdroid's
effort somehow. Even if just by bitching... err promoting on forums.

~~~
rrx09
> FDroid's fork is now a move against binary blobs. And copious tracking. They
> are taking back firefox (pun intended). From the announce: "It removes the
> proprietary binaries out of the official builds." [emphasis mine]

What's the nearest thing for general Linux? I'm guessing Tor Browser without
Tor?

I didn't see anything specific in Arch/AUR repositories.

~~~
gcb0
I hope Debian's iceweasel will eventually serve that purpose. Stable is still
on 31, so it will be interesting to see how 38+ shows up there. maybe looking
at what happen on sid will already show something (sorry, i'm not following
sid for a couple years now :(

~~~
ptx
Newer versions are available for Debian Stable as well, if you add the
appropriate repository:
[http://mozilla.debian.net/](http://mozilla.debian.net/)

------
toni
Currently these Mozilla domains are blocked in our internal networks. Not all
of them are data-collecting services, but it's better to be safe than sorry:

    
    
        self-repair.mozilla.* 
        tiles.services.mozilla.* 
        tiles.*.services.mozilla.* 
        pfs.mozilla.* 
        snippets.mozilla.* 
        fxfeeds.mozilla.* 
        services.addons.mozilla.* 
        crash-stats.mozilla.* 
        *.data.mozilla.* 
        versioncheck-bg.addons.mozilla.* 
        fhr.cdn.mozilla.* 
        sendto.mozilla.* 
        push.services.mozilla.* 
    

The amount of stuff you must block to have a decent browser experience
nowadays is simply mind boggling. Of course, Chrome or Opera are no more
better.

~~~
JoshTriplett
Some of those sites are used by the addons service to keep addons up to date,
and by blocking them you potentially prevent updates.

~~~
toni
You can always go to Tools -> Add-ons and mass-update all your add-ons
manually at once (Click on the gear icon drop down and select "Check for
Updates"). These rules will not block that.

~~~
JoshTriplett
Most people will not do that; they (sensibly) expect automatic updates.

~~~
toni
The type of privacy-conscious users/organizations who go to such a length in
blocking these domains will also do the update manually or via their own
internal update processes.

I'm not sure what most people do will have any relevance to the point I was
trying to make.

------
pserwylo
I see no evidence that Firefox is being dropped (at this point in time).

\- This page doesn't explain that it is being dropped [0,1].

\- there is no signals from the F-Droid team that I can see that it is
dropping firefox [e.g. on #fdroid at freenode].

\- The metadata for the F-Droid build server still includes Firefox [2]

[0] -
[https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.fire...](https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.firefox)

[1] -
[https://f-droid.org/wiki/page/org.mozilla.firefox](https://f-droid.org/wiki/page/org.mozilla.firefox)

[2] -
[https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/blob/master/metadata/or...](https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/blob/master/metadata/org.mozilla.firefox.txt)

~~~
thristian
When I look at your link 0, it says "Note that this package is planned to be
dropped from the F-Droid repo soon. Please consider using Fennec FDroid
instead to be sure of continued update support." That certainly makes it sound
like the Firefox package is being dropped.

------
azinman2
Seems petty. Mozilla is one of the most pure open source projects out there in
mission, ethos, and product. Addons are user choices, and trying to limit that
choice is self defeating in free speech.

~~~
kkmickos
Well, some things at Mozilla seem a bit odd.

A few weeks ago Nightly ended up having "Pocket" integrated, and rumour said
it would replace Mozilla's own open source Sync plus the integrated Reader.

Addons will soon no longer be able to be installed unless approved by Mozilla.
(Another walled garden. Sigh...)

~~~
pki
This is very good, I hate having to constantly remove malware plugins off
friends'/family stuff, hijacking new tab, hijacking search providers...

~~~
gcb0
So, pay apple and use the one browser. You already have that offering.

------
anonbanker
I've already switched to fennec on my devices. Firefox has turned a dark
corner than I can no longer support.

------
Sephr
> Removed: Mediastreaming (requires non-free library: play-services)[1]

I understand removing EME and DRM support, but they are removing a feature
simply because it only works when a certain closed source library is
installed. Is graceful degradation somehow "below" them?

That's like banning packages that use .NET (when it was non-free) on NuGet.
You can create open source code that supports proprietary libraries without
having to compromise your morals, with the sane choice of graceful degradation
when you absolutely need the library.

This seems like a very petty reason to completely remove video streaming
support from their distribution of Firefox.

1\.
[https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.fenn...](https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.fennec_fdroid)

~~~
kkmickos
Well, the idea behind F-Droid is "free-of-charge, free and open-source
software". If the software doesn't live up to that, I feel their are in their
right to remove it.

And honestly if you want the full featured software and don't care about
ideals, just download it from Play.

------
soapdog
Let me address some issues on this thread on the best way I can because I am
really tired of all the FUD and attacks. I will first address the stuff
mentioned on that changelog about the FDroid build of fennec and then I will
talk a bit about Mozilla, Eich and what I think people are doing wrong in
here.

    
    
      Removed: Tests [not sure about that]
      Removed: Crashreporter [tracking]
      Removed: Healthreporter (UI?)
      

All that stuff provides telemetry for Mozilla that helps in finding and
addressing bugs. People complain about a website not working correctly on
Firefox but disable all the reporting stuff and never fill a bug on bugzilla.
That kind of thing is useful. The source code for that is available on github,
you can check what is sent and decide if it is worth using it or not.

    
    
      Removed: Mediastreaming (requires non-free library: play-services) [google's binary blobs]
      

Users want stuff to work. I am not talking about users with a free software
mindset that are willing to hop through unfortunate hops to get their system
working. I am talking about the average non-technical non-aware-of-foss user
which number in the millions world wide (billions?) They want their browser to
be able to play multimedia content. If you don't want to use non-free
multimedia then don't access mp3 and other patent encumbred content.

    
    
      Removed: Updater [tracking]
      

Another piece that you can check the code. Everyone wants an evergreen browser
that receives patches, keeps its health in check and is kept up to date. There
is no way of updating software without sending some data about the current
software. Check the code and see if there is any sensitive information being
sent and decide for yourself.

    
    
      Removed: EME/DRM [adobe's binary blob]
      

EME is one thing and DRM is another. They work together but they are not a
single unity. Before EME/DRM you had proprietary unauditable DRM software
running wild on your computing device. Now you have an open source sandbox
that can be audited to make sure that the proprietary DRM blob can't escape
and fetch personal fingerprint data from your computing device. If you don't
believe that the EME/DRM sandbox included in your Firefox is the same as the
one from the code, there are mechanisms for building your own and using it.
And thats the important part: "If you are against DRM then don't using
services that use DRM". Some people want to listen to music, watch movies and
other multimedia on services that believe that DRM solves some stuff. EME/DRM
solution protects their personal data while giving them the features needed to
use such services. If you don't agree with DRM then you don't use those
services. The DRM blob is downloaded when you use those services, if you're
not using them then the blob is not on your machine and never will be.

The fight against DRM shouldn't happen inside the browser but in the users
mindset and towards the service providers. The EME/DRM solution was created as
a compromise, give the users what they want while trying the best solution to
protect them. Let FSF and other FOSS entitites audit the EME/DRM sandbox. Let
researchers try to pick personal data and fingerprints from the machine. Match
that against the other solution which is non auditable. If all the effort and
action placed into the hate machine against EME/DRM was instead directed at
educating users and teaching about non-DRM services then EME/DRM would not be
needed.

And that brings us to the topic of action. Mozilla is the only large player in
the browser ecosystem that has all its code open, its roadmaps published, its
processess available for public perusal and collaboration. You can't influence
or be a part of Safari, Opera, IE, Edge and Chrome development. You can't
verify, audit, help steer, be a part of what the companies behind those
products want for the the web.

    
    
      THE WEB IS THE ONLY MASS COMMUNICATION MEDIA WHERE EVERYONE HAS A VOICE
      

Keeping the web free and open, made by everyone for everyone, is the mission
of Mozilla. That mission passes through a lot of different efforts which you
can help. Millions of people worldwide have no idea how to the web works and
don't know how to produce content and make their voice available online.

The Mozilla Webmaker project helps teaching the web through workshops. Instead
of spreading FUD and attacking people online, you can direct your energy into
positive actions such as educating users on how to make the web their own and
how to make their opinion count such as when talking about the DRM situation.
The webmaker initiative goes beyond that with workshops and activities to
teach about privacy, online rights, net neutrality, information credibility,
programming. All that is open and in need of help. Educating users do more
about the web than removing EME/DRM API hooks and sandbox.

Firefox is the only browser that has its source code completely open and where
you can help steer the project. You can be a part of Mozilla and then join the
thousands that are trying to steer the web towards the users. If you don't
agree with some practice, then, instead of shouting on Twitter and Hacker
News, join the mailing lists and discussions. Be a part of the process. Help.

Firefox OS is the only mobile operating system developed in the open and based
on web technologies that are not controlled by a single entity. You can help
us create a wonderful mobile system that brings the benefits of the open web
in the hands of everybody. Instead of rooting and fighting about isolated
closed proprietary islands, you can help steer our little web boat. Our low-
cost (and low-specs :-P ) devices are bringing internet access to lots of
people in emerging countries, with that there is information sharing,
education, and other life transforming opportunities that bring positive
social change.

Mozilla is what we make it be. As volunteers, employees, fans and users we can
make it more than it ever was. Mozilla is also a project, an idea, that making
a good quality software and solutions as a foundation/community we can rival
companies and make the ideal of values over profit prevail on the web.

I see a lot of hate for all the decisions Mozilla makes. Apparently it is the
fashionable trendy thing on the web to spread FUD instead of taking positive
action and helping. The whole situation with Brendan Eich is one of those
cases. Brendan is a normal human being like all of us. We all have our flaws,
prejudices, qualities, dreams, and bad decisions. Everyone here has some
opinion and action taken about such opinion that goes against something that
is deeply important to some group. We're humans, we make mistakes. We're
products of the zeitgeist of our formative years. We learn and change through
time but yet we all make mistakes at the eyes of others and sometimes even to
our own. Unlike many here, I've been around Brendan Eich couple times and he
was always pleasant, supportive and energetic about the web. That is his
passion and fight. A strong problem with the web is the echo chamber. Someone
makes a mistake or something we all disagree and consider bad and that person
is forever bound to suffer our hate. That kind of action leads us nowhere.
Whats helps is education, empathy, showing "the other" why we thing our
opinion is important and why we would think another course of action was
correct. Dialog and comprehension makes the world a better place, pitchforks
don't.

You all here, may you be FUDing/fear mongering or not, can help Mozilla, the
Web, Brendan and everyone. You can join the cause of an open web though dialog
and positive actions. You can help Mozilla better its code and actions. You
can help teach people about the web and let them multiply their opportunities.
You can help audit code, translate content, make us see the correct path when
we're in the dark. You can help Mozilla fight for a web made of people and not
of incompatible features and companies.

Thats what I am asking. Instead of flamewars and fighting Mozilla, join us,
help us work, teach and learn with us and we'll all make a much better and
interesting web.

~~~
hiamnew
The effort to try to change a massive project like Firefox to the better
vastly exceeds the effort to rightfully complain and abandon it. Seeing the
course of mozilla over the past half decade makes me doubt that one would have
any chance to get them on the "right" track again. I hope there will be
another phoenix, that does not assume everyone to be a dumb post-privacy
tablet user

~~~
soapdog
If you think that creating a new browser from scratch is less effort than
helping Mozilla then I believe that you're in for a big surprise.

Let me pose a simple honest question, if not Mozilla, then who? Which major
browser vendor you see going in the direction you want? If no one is going
there, then, what entity you think could create a succesful browser with the
values you want?

------
alrs
Mozilla chose to become spyware, so they're booted out of F-Droid. This makes
sense.

~~~
__david__
When and in what way did Mozilla decide to become spyware?

~~~
gcb0
not necessarily spyware, but moving away from the community focus.

    
    
       1. UI copying chrome
       2. telefonica servers for video chat
       3. Ads on your new-tab-page
       4. Yahoo search deal
       5. Adobe binary blob DRM installed and enabled by default. this is flash security holes all over again.
       6. google binary blob DRM on android.
    
    

mozilla have long gone from being a incubator the firefox project to try to be
a startup coming up with the next big thing, for who knows why. like their
sync thing that they keep annoying me to use every time. it's like ubuntu
trying hard with ubuntu one. but ubuntu at least was started to make money.

~~~
icebraining
How is the Yahoo search deal any different than the search deal with Google
that they've had for years and years?

And the EME module, good or bad, is _not_ a security hole like Flash. The CDM
modules are heavily sandboxed, preventing them from doing anything in the
system besides talking to the browser. On Linux, it uses seccomp:
[https://lwn.net/Articles/332974/](https://lwn.net/Articles/332974/)

~~~
comex
I think the difference is that Google is a superior search engine, so in a
world where technology trumps money it would be the default.* Of course,
abiding by that would kill Mozilla's bargaining position, and Mozilla losing
funding would suck for everyone, but...

* or DuckDuckGo (inferior but privacy conscious), but good luck with _them_ funding Mozilla

------
anon3_
I boycotted firefox after the Brendan Eich affair.

Mozilla is supposed to be a symbol of the hacker ethic.

When they bent to the whims of social media lynch mobs - they betrayed the one
who literally built the foundation of their existence.

~~~
pluma
They didn't bend to social media. They made it very clear they were surprised
by the internal reactions and that's why he stepped back down. Besides, social
media or not, the primary reason the issue blew up at all was a lack of
transparency in their organizational politics. This isn't about Gamergate.

~~~
Flimm
The truth is, we'll never know the whole truth about why they did what they
did. I find it hard to believe that social pressure played no part in their
decisions.

