
Emails suggest reviews from the Wirecutter are “pay to play” (2014) - oftenwrong
https://www.xdesk.com/wirecutter-standing-desk-review-pay-to-play-model
======
redegg
This happened in 2014, why the hell is this being brought up now? It should be
noted that NextDesk changed their name to Xdesk after this debacle years ago.

Also NOT published and considered in this flame throwing is Wirecutter's
response. There is a clear agenda. I only know this fiasco because I spent
hours looking for a standing desk yesterday.

\- In terms of durability: laminate > bamboo > powdercoat. Powdercoat feels
EXTREMELY nice, but it's made of compacted shards so not really lasting.

\- Most use Chinese motors but they're not really an issue.

\- Just get whatever is the cheapest from a common brand. Fully (Jarvis),
UPLIFT, VertDesk are all good. Jarvis and UPLIFT are similarly priced but
UPLIFT's bamboo table is thicker. Xdesk is personally too expensive for
something I would go to Herman Miller or Steelcase for a similarly priced
desk.

\- The wobble at high heights for the ones above ^ exists but is in practice
not really an issue (at like the maximum height where your arms would be at an
uncomfortable position then). Personally, I only want a standing desk so I can
adjust to a good height for my chair, so I would never use it to stand at 5'
for hours at a time. BTOD produces good reviews on YouTube and their site but
keep in mind they create the VertDesk.

[https://thewirecutter.com/our-response-to-
nextdesk/](https://thewirecutter.com/our-response-to-nextdesk/)

~~~
oftenwrong
"This happened in 2014, why the hell is this being brought up now?"

I just found out about it, and thought others might be interested. I have used
The Wirecutter reviews to make purchasing decisions. For me, this incident
just a few years ago makes me doubt their objectivity today.

~~~
teknico
Thank you for posting this, definitely interesting and useful.

------
diziet
The folks that made outdoorgearlab.com have always struck me as being very
honest and real with their reviews. I've bought thousands of dollars of
outdoor / climbing gear from their recommendations and generally agree with
their assessment.

They started a tech oriented site and I would tend to trust it:
[https://www.techgearlab.com/](https://www.techgearlab.com/)

From their FAQ:

Q: Do companies pay you to review their gear? A: No, we never receive money
from companies for reviewing their gear.

Q: How do you get the gear for your reviews? A: We buy all the products we
review ourselves, at retail just like you, to help assure complete objectivity
and independence in our ratings. We won't accept any free evaluation units
from manufacturers.

~~~
Q6T46nT668w6i3m
Yeah, it’s a fantastic resource. I really only care about crampons when I need
to buy a new pair and they are the perfect place to look. I didn’t know they
were expanding!

------
yborg
About the only source of reviews I would believe isn't primarily paid
advertorials is Consumer Reports, and those have to be filtered through CR's
own particular set of biases. Even sites that aren't blatantly pay to play
(and Wirecutter was pretty obviously in that camp basically from the very
start) are usually compromised by being provided expensive hardware they could
not economically review otherwise, and know that negative reviews will cut
them off from the very thing that enables them to exist.

Picking signal out of the shill review background noise is really hard these
days.

~~~
fapjacks
Fakespot can really help for the biggest sites with reviews [0]. Previous to
using it, I just ignored Amazon reviews completely. But this does a really
good job of cutting through the shit to get something approaching public
sentiment. Half of my buying decision these days is actually whether or not
the company has a history of buying reviews for their products.

[0] [https://fakespot.com](https://fakespot.com)

------
obrajesse
I...always thought they were pretty up front that their revenue model was
affiliate marketing.

~~~
coldtea
Affiliate marketing when it's offered is one thing.

Requesting affiliate marketing when it's not offered, is another (but still
OK).

Pushing for affiliate marketing and when not getting it, changing your review,
is something totally else and NOT OK.

And of course, considering only products with affiliate marketing, is the
opposite of "objective review site".

~~~
jjeaff
And pushing for affiliate revenue, then changing your review, then lying that
the new top pick does not have any affiliate revenue either is even worse.

(They claimed their new top pick also didn't have an affiliate relationship.
But the way back machine archive showed that they were in fact linking to the
new desk via an Amazon affiliate link.)

------
fipple
All affiliate sites eventually become this way. As a data point from someone
who owns a NextDesk Terra and a Jarvis Fully, though, I agree with the basic
point of the article. The Jarvis is functionally equivalent to the NextDesk
even though the NextDesk is clearly a more luxe and high-end product. I'd
compare the difference to the Acura and Infiniti Q45 that I owned... both were
great cars and totally reliable, and I crashed both of them badly and walked
away unscathed, but the Infiniti was just one level higher in fit and finish.

------
timcederman
I've bought several things on recommendation from the Wirecutter, and
repeatedly been disappointed, so this is not so surprising - what a shame.

~~~
donmcronald
IMO they have the same problem as most online review sites. The reviewers lack
the industry knowledge needed to assess a product in isolation, so they end up
with reviews where products are compared to each other. A review of dozen
piece of trash products always ends with a recommendation even if they’re all
a waste of money.

IE: Check out our review for the tastiest dog shit of 2018.

~~~
actuallyalys
They actually occasionally write reviews that tell you not to buy any product
in a category. For example, "The Best Automatic Cat Litter Box (But We Don’t
Recommend It)".([https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-automatic-cat-
litter-...](https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-automatic-cat-litter-box-
but-we-dont-recommend-it/))

~~~
jjeaff
My guess is that affiliate revenues for automatic cat litter boxes are
somewhat low. Judging by their behavior and response to these allegations, I'm
inclined to think that, if the product was higher volume, they would go ahead
and recommend it wholeheartedly.

------
danso
The Wirecutter was bought by the NYT in 2016:
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-13/new-
york-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-13/new-york-times-
rebrands-wirecutter-as-product-review-sales-grow)

------
emdowling
If it is a standard affiliate program he is after, why does he not just say
that in the email?

I don’t think there is anything wrong for Wirecutter to say “hey, we make
money from affiliate sales - do you guys have a program we can sign up to?”.
That’s totally cool. But he does such an awful job of saying that and makes it
sound so much worse.

~~~
freyir
Can't believe he actually used the word "kickbacks." At least he's being
transparent.

------
JCBarry
FWIW, Wirecutter (and sister site Sweethome) were purchased by NYTimes in
2016.

From the about on their site
([https://thewirecutter.com/about/](https://thewirecutter.com/about/)): "Do
your affiliate commissions make you biased?

Up front: Our writers and editors are never made aware of which companies may
have established affiliate relationships with our business team prior to
making their picks. If readers choose to buy the products we recommend as a
result of our research, analysis, interviews, and testing, our work is often
(but not always) supported through an affiliate commission from the _retailer_
when they make a purchase. If readers return their purchases because they’re
dissatisfied or the recommendation is bad, we make nothing. There’s no
incentive for us to pick inferior products or respond to pressure from
manufacturers—in fact, it’s quite the opposite. We think that’s a pretty fair
system that keeps us committed to serving our readers first.

The most important thing to us is the trust we have from readers. If we were
to recommend something because we are biased or lazy, readers like you
wouldn’t support our work. We also invite you to fact-check our pieces, which
carefully outline the time, logic, and energy spent researching, interviewing
experts, and testing the gear. Often, this takes dozens—sometimes even
hundreds—of hours. Each guide plainly lays out all the evidence for why we
made our picks so you can judge for yourself."

I think the distinction that this is affiliate marketing for the retailers --
not the product manufacturers themselves -- is an important one to make. Also,
I think their path of separating business from editorial is entirely sensible
for a NYTimes company.

That being said, reviews (and review sites) always fall under "buyer beware"
in my mind (I once read a 1 star review of a DVD player stating that it gave
it 1 star because it wasn't a VHS player...seriously).

~~~
jjeaff
I don't think getting affiliate revenues is necessarily a problem, however,
there is an inherent conflict of interest considering that different retailers
pay different affiliate rates and some manufacturers sell direct and pay
higher affiliate commissions.

Also, getting a commission on sales encourages the reviewers to select more
expensive options.

I usually like Wirecutter reviews. But I do find that they sometimes seem to
favor more expensive options when cheaper alternatives are nearly the same or
better. (Even their budget pick tends to be high and sometimes I think the
budget pick should be the overall pick).

You will see a lot of products frequently at the top of review lists (not just
Wirecutter) that are not sold on Amazon. These are usually sold at a premium
direct from the manufacturer and a higher commission can be paid. (15-25%)

The thermapen thermometer is one of these. They will always link directly to
thermoworks website, who is the sole distributor in the US. I'm sure they pay
a higher commission than Amazon's 8% for comparable but cheaper alternatives
like the javelin.

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orastor
RIP. What's a good alternative?

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sunstone
For tech products I always presume that "pay to play" is a component of the
reviews from a review source. Even if it's not explicit the large brands buy a
lot of the advertising and will get some 'editorial compensation' almost
certainly.

This doesn't mean the reviews are worthless though. By checking several
sources of reviews for the same product type one can often get a sense of
which are really the top products. After all, a review site would look pretty
bad if it really promoted a dog product that no other reviewer liked. What
does often get over looked though are the really good products from small
suppliers.

------
amelius
Wouldn't it be fairly easy for, say, the FTC to expose such behavior? Why
aren't they putting review sites to the test on a regular basis?

------
chis
Wirecutter was since bought by the New York Times, which gives a lot more
journalistic credibility IMO.

------
nytesky
They were purchased by NYT — wouldn’t they fall under their higher
journalistic standards now?

~~~
coldtea
Like reviewing the best WMDs?

