
If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, close it - iDemonix
https://medium.com/@iDemonix/paypal-is-still-one-of-the-worst-online-examples-of-customer-service-42f3c13f6cd0
======
ben0x539
Also this is a great example of having rules that are bullshit enough that you
can basically do anything to anyone and technically be perfectly justified
according to some agreement, but also enforcing them arbitrarily enough that
anyone who complains about the terms of the agreement will be brushed off as
paranoid.

~~~
iDemonix
Yeah, in my initial outburst of rage to my other half about the situation I
just described it as it's like a company turning around and sacking you
because you took home an expensive stapler several years ago, it's just a
random get out of free card they have stored thanks to their ToS.

~~~
user5994461
Abusive ToS won't stand up in court.

~~~
Zpalmtree
Not many people are big enough to sue PayPal, and if they are, they probably
aren't using it.

~~~
srssays
Small claims court?

~~~
pacaro
Srsly. This is the UK so it's well within the limits of small claims. IANAL
but the U.K. also has less tolerance of "fine print".

If PayPal closed his account because it was created before he was 18, did they
do so because they believe that he didn't have capacity when he signed up? If
that is the case then it makes you wonder if any of the TOS apply

~~~
merb
well in the UK and other Parts in Europe I'm not sure if this ToS is even
legal. You don't need to full-aged to open an account at a bank. you only need
to be legally competent in Europe and as far as I know Paypal is a recognized
bank, so they can't just make their own rules via AGB/ToS.

------
kbos87
If ever there was a single shining example of how not to treat your customers,
PayPal is it. Every year or two there is another story of a different arcane
rule they have in place that is enforced with zero human consideration,
oftentimes to deprive people access to their funds. They don't learn from
their mistakes, nor acknowledge them in the first place. I can't think of
another company that has drummed up such bad will in me (probably not even
United.)

~~~
edem
What can I use instead of paypal?

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
Bitcoin.

~~~
edem
Not very helpful.

~~~
Sir_Substance
You should definitely try steams bitcoin integration before you dismiss the
possibility. Grab a bitcoin wallet on your phone, go buy $5 worth of bitcoin,
and then use that $5 of bitcoin to buy $5 of steam credit.

It's a considerably smoother user flow than using a credit card, and it's just
as fast. I think you'll be surprised and impressed.

~~~
efournie
First, given the track record of manufacturers with android security updates,
I wouldn't install a bitcoin wallet on my phone.

Then, there is the problem with "buy $5 worth of bitcoin". Last time I
checked, this was everything but trivial, at least here in Europe.

And finally, the last purchase I made with bitcoins on steam took more than 12
hours to get validated. I used the standard bitcoin fee of the bitcoin-qt
client but it seems to be far from enough nowadays.

~~~
Sir_Substance
>And finally, the last purchase I made with bitcoins on steam took more than
12 hours to get validated. I used the standard bitcoin fee of the bitcoin-qt
client but it seems to be far from enough nowadays.

So you know what the problem is, but you pretend that it's not your problem.
If you use any modern bitcoin wallet, android or not, it'll automatically
append a reasonable fee, and validate in about 2 seconds.

------
loeg
Just close your account if you have a PayPal account at all. They limit and
freeze funds at random and good luck resolving it.

OP, You can refund the funds to the sender less Paypal's 30¢ cut, I believe.
That might be the best way to get the money back to your friend, and then they
can re-send it to you with something sane like Google Wallet.

~~~
_wmd
> something sane like a bank transfer

FTFY. Zero fees, zero megacorps taking their cut, zero social graphs in the US
growing a few extra tuples

~~~
greyfox
in the US wire transfers cost about $30 per transfer, international cost about
$50.

If you're transferring to another customer in the same bank then they're free
but I've never had that luxury.

Were you referring to bank transfers to same bank customers? Because I've
never heard of zero fees for bank transfers

~~~
maccard
Uk here - I can transfer amounts under 10k in under 2 hours without any fee,
to any other uk bank. If I want to send more, it's about 20 pounds, and
completed in a day. I can TransferWise money anywhere in Europe (not tested
the US) for far less than those prices too.

~~~
btb
Denmark here. November 21 2014 instant clearing 365/24/7 between danish banks
via the Danish Central Bank was started. I can transfer money from bank A and
have it be there on my account with bank B when I alt-tab over and refresh the
browser with netbank B. Oh and its free(although a few banks have started
charging a minor DKK 1 or DKK 10 fee for initiating the transfer, not mine
though).

------
joshuaheard
I can't think of a legal reason for this policy. Normally, one must be 18
years old to enter into a contract, so the policy of preventing users under 18
from using the service is rational. However, if a user under 18 turns 18 years
old during the contract, the contract is "ratified" and becomes valid and
enforceable. It's as if they were 18 years old all along. So, there is no
legal reason for Paypal to terminate accounts for people who enter into the
contract under 18 yet turn 18 during the contract period.

~~~
VotreReb
"I can't think of a legal reason for this policy."

Wouldn't it be that you committed financial fraud? Paypal initially allowed
you to send/receive payments purely based on the fact that you stated you were
an age you were not.

The Paypal signup form does not let you signup unless the DOB given, shows
you're over the age of 18.

This guy lied about his age and then had the audacity to write a blog post
about how bad Paypal is.

He shows he's willing to lie and also willing to commit financial fraud (as
that is what it's considered.) - I for one, am very glad someone like him HAS
been banned from Paypal.

~~~
maxander
I'm not sure you're being serious. Do you carefully read the EULA or TOS of
everything you pay for, line by line? Do you consult a lawyer about how to
parse the legalese? If not, you've almost certainly also committed fraud of
the same degree.

~~~
VotreReb
I think you're getting confused as you don't know about the fact that you can
not signup to Paypal under the age of 18, unless you lie about your DOB.

IE; if you're 17 and put your DOB into the Paypal signup process, it literally
stops you from signing up.

This person lied to get an account.

~~~
rspeer
Do you have any evidence that PayPal's sign-up process 10 years ago included
verifying that you were over 18, or are you just making things up?

------
Eun
Had the same issue last month after reciving a $3000 bug bounty. PP limited my
account I uploaded a copy of my id, bing -> banned.

However: After calling them, they told me to create a new account and verify
it with the CC and bankaccount (that were in old acc). And as soon everything
was verified they trasfered the money to the new account.

So apparently it seems not to be that difficult to get your money.

~~~
moritzplassnig
Which number did you call?

I'm trying to get $1,500 out of PayPal and I haven't found a way to talk to
somebody at PayPal who was able/willing to help me with that (account got
blocked, I uploaded all the paperwork, got told that they will hold the money
for 180 days but that was more than 1 year ago).

~~~
bfred_it
I'd have filed a police report for that much money. This is ridiculous.

------
delecti
I only ever use Paypal as a wrapper around credit card transactions for
merchants I trust enough to purchase from, but not necessarily enough to
handle my credit card information directly. I can't say I've ever had a
problem using them that way.

~~~
driverdan
Why do you care? It's easy to dispute credit card charges. Most banks will
overnight you a new card if needed.

~~~
tluyben2
For a lot of people that is a pain. The old PAN is blocked and things that
depend on it (and you might have forgotten about) cannot draw money from it
anymore.

------
jliptzin
Here's three rules someone once gave me which I can't emphasize strongly
enough.

1\. Never use Paypal. For ANY reason.

2\. Never. Use. Paypal. For. Any. Reason.

3\. See rule #1.

~~~
lj3
What's the alternative?

~~~
Bud
Square Cash is absolutely fantastic, and extraordinarily easy to use. The
mobile app is great. You can even send money to someone who doesn't even have
a Square Cash account yet, by simply emailing them, cc'ing cash@square.com,
and putting the dollar amount in the Subject: line. That's it.

You can't beat it.

~~~
lwhalen
Square is just as bad as PayPal, IME. Lots of arbitrary rules, clients unable
to pay me, funds withheld for no good reason, etc. I'll stick with bank
transfers (ACH) or Bitcoin, personally.

------
c0achmcguirk
> _There are alternatives to PayPal, it’s just become so ingrained in to
> online life that it can be easy to forget that._

This is very true, but I like to think of how predominant MySpace and Hotmail
were at one time. Someone will come along and do it better. Stripe,
PaymentSpring, heck even Bitcoin are all potential disruptors here.

I think the days of PayPal's dominance are numbered.

~~~
wslh
100% agree. For Americans I don't find a reason to use PayPal and for other
countries they can use Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies without dealing with
the risk of freezing your account.

Indeed, I found PayPal simple to use as a merchant outside USA but now there
are more alternatives.

------
colanderman
So in this case where a friend's deposit is being held for ransom, could that
friend simply chargeback or file a fraud claim against PayPal? After all,
PayPal has stolen their money which was intended for another person (the
author in this case).

------
deadfece
When I joined, the ToS explicitly allowed users between 16 and 18.

[http://www.screw-
paypal.com/tos_exposed_section/tos_june_200...](http://www.screw-
paypal.com/tos_exposed_section/tos_june_2000.html)

It looks like their ToS changed in February 2003 to enforce an 18-only model.

------
JoshGlazebrook
I've had similar bad experiences with venmo. Apparently I had created an
account a couple years ago that I forgot about so I created a new one to
receive a payment from a friend. A day after I received the money and had it
set to transfer to my bank account they closed both of my accounts citing some
rule in their terms of service saying one account per lifetime. And now I
can't ever have another venmo account. That $500 also never got to me and
never got returned to the sender. Just overall a scam of a company.

~~~
coffeevradar
Since Venmo is a subsidiary of PayPal, it's not surprising that the two have
similarly anti-consumer policies.

------
digitalzombie
Or... Don't use Paypal.

They stopped "doing business" with me out of the blue.

I call them up and asked why and they said I need a subpoena to get the
reason.

I call them back saying I have a retainer so what do I do to get the reason
with my retainer on hand?

Seeing I was serious, the operator told me the reason as if he's letting me on
a secret. The reason being I'm associated to somebody that owe them money.

Yeah seriously. Their reason for not doing business with me was that I know
somebody that owe them money but they won't tell me who.

I asked if they can remove all my info. The dude told me it's secured because
paypal use SSL. I wanted to to tell him that SSL is for connection encryption
not data encryption but at this point I'm done with this bullshit ordeal.

2 months later paypal got hacked.

I only use paypal to buy chinese clothing over ebay since I'm a small guy and
it's hard to get clothing in USA with my size.

------
jaimex2
If you are in Australia and PayPal every pull anything remotely similar,
contact the financial ombudsman. They are extremely good at putting Paypal
back in line.

In some cases they fine financial institutions who don't resolve quickly
enough.

~~~
iDemonix
I'm in the UK but my friend Mat is in Aus and does run in to problems with
them now and then, I'll pass the information on.

------
AdamJacobMuller
> will now just have to move to my credit cards directly

One of the reasons I like paypal is that it provides a great amount of control
over who I pay and when and how much. I can login and reasonably easy see all
of my MRC subscriptions, and cancel them as appropriate. Technically possible
with credit cards directly, but not as nice.

Best of both worlds right now is privacy.com for me, they generate credit card
#s on the fly and provide that same level of vision and control into where the
money is going with exactly 100% less bullshit and 100% less scumbag tactics.

If you're moving payments away from paypal (and you should) I would suggest
considering moving them to privacy.com instead of directly.

~~~
napsterbr
Privacy.com does not load. After a quick search, I think you meant abine.com?

Thanks for sharing, anyway. I'll definitely give a try on their service. Hope
it works for non-US cards too, but I find it unlikely. But $3 per month for
virtual cards seems too good to be true. I'll take a closer read on the tos
once I get to a desktop (unrelated, but am I the only one who can't stand to
do a thing on mobile devices?)

~~~
AdamJacobMuller
Nope, definitely meant [https://privacy.com/](https://privacy.com/), not sure
why it doesn't load for you.

Privacy is free, I assumed they were getting a small % back from their card
issuer to cover costs.

------
pizza
PayPal told me I was 'violating sanctions against Iran' \- an accusation I
think I will never understand because I mostly used PayPal to buy stuff from
HumbleBundle at the time.. - and upon showing them id they froze my account
because I was < 18\. It's been years since, and my account is still frozen,
although I've attempted to get it back a couple of times.

Don't use paypal.

------
hanklazard
As someone who uses PayPal on a multiple times per week basis and who has
never had any issues, this type of story (as well as the general sentiments of
many of the comments) makes me worry that my time will come soon enough.

Can anyone recommend a service like PayPal that would be good for online
transactions between individuals, but that also allows for credit card use?
Fees are to be expected, it's just that I have t been able to find another
service that will allow CC. I'm really hopeful that Google wallet will begin
to allow CC use sometime soon.

~~~
JBReefer
Venmo ... Oh that's PayPal too.

I'm not a fan, but maybe Bitcoin? What about mailed checks, as a backup?

~~~
kennywinker
In Canada we have Interact e-transfers. For about $1 you can send money
between any two banks via email or sms. The fee is frustrating, especially
when you want to pay someone back for lunch or something small, but it is
_very_ convenient and basically everybody knows how to use it at this point.

~~~
jlebrech
someone who asks you for that $5 back, is always that person that will borrow
$500 from you and never pay back, why spend a dollar for such a small amount.

~~~
kennywinker
Where are you going for lunch?

------
darkhorn
You are a programmer in PayPal. The manager tells you to program "close
accounts that are created when under 18". And the programmer cannot complys.

When I say to my manager that this thing won't work etc he imlies that I'm
smartsass jerk. Thus I no longer argue with him. I don't suggest anything to
him anymore. I do exactly what he says. Probably this is the same case with
PayPal too.

------
Spare_account
I was able to determine the year I opened my account in the Account Settings
page:

[http://imgur.com/y6Rpc4G](http://imgur.com/y6Rpc4G)

~~~
forbiddenlake
An exact date would be better, for those who turned 18 in the year displayed.

~~~
prostanac
the best way to find our the exact date is to find the sign up email, if you
still have access to it.

~~~
Spare_account
Inspired by your suggestion, I located my original PayPal account activation
email from May 2006: [http://imgur.com/ztYGLxP](http://imgur.com/ztYGLxP)

------
jrnichols
What an epic failure on PayPal's part. Is there some banking law that I'm
unaware of that would cause them to take such drastic actions? It sounds like
the OP is definitely above the age of 18 now too, so why would PayPal suddenly
decide to yank the rug out from under him?

It'll be interesting to see if there's a follow up.

~~~
jcwayne
Not sure about UK laws, but my (limited) understanding of US law is that a
minor lacks the legal capacity to sign a contract (i.e. agree to TOS). I
suspect that's the legal reasoning that's caused PayPal to adopt this policy.

PayPal could and should find a better way to handle transitioning people who,
out of necessity, lied about their age when they first signed up. Was signing
up under false pretenses a form of fraud? Probably, but it's a form of fraud
that's essentially benign and is so pervasive, online and off, that it's just
stupid to treat it as such.

~~~
iDemonix
I'm pretty sure PayPal have updated their ToS since and I've had to re-agree
upon login? Would that not cover me?

~~~
imchillyb
Terms of service, and conditions, are part of a contract they are not a
contract in and of itself.

You signed the contract when you started your account. Which, is why they want
you to start a new account so that you will sign a new contract with them.

------
huac
They had Paypal Student before, where your account would be linked to your
parent's account. But they shut that down recently, with no way to reactivate
or unlink the account, and you're unable to reuse your email when making
another account.

~~~
wolfgang42
I had a Student account, and when I turned 18 they seemed surprised that I
would want to disconnect it from my parents' account and turn it into a
regular PayPal account. (I had some back-and-forth with their support, who
eventually explained that my parents had to cancel my account so I could sign
up for a regular account with the same email address.) This seems like the
sort of thing you'd at least have a KB article about, if not an automated
process, given that _every single user of the service_ is going to want to do
this eventually.

------
MaximHarper
Same experience my end:
[https://twitter.com/MaximHarper/status/847071547772821505](https://twitter.com/MaximHarper/status/847071547772821505)

PayPal is unfortunately still pretty central to eBay & I'm a payment geek so
I've made a new account. Glad I didn't have any funds frozen though, that must
suck.

~~~
iDemonix
eBay is the biggest heartache for me, I do a lot with older cars and
motorcycles, so buying/selling parts is routine for me and will be a pain to
sort out.

------
robin_reala
While it’s good that the author got their money back at least, if it was
invalid for the author to have an account for 10 years it was also presumably
invalid for PayPal to take any transaction fees during that period. Might be
an interesting avenue for small claims.

~~~
PhantomGremlin
_While it’s good that the author got their money back at least_

Did you miss the following? It was toward the bottom, but it was in BOLD:

 _My only hope is that within 6 months, I will get a mystery email from PayPal
letting me know that they might be willing to let me have my money._

Or is the submitter also the author? In which case, yes, he does post
elsewhere here that he reversed the payment into his account. (Less fees, of
course!) If so, it's unfortunate he didn't update the article itself with this
new information.

------
aphextron
I've completely blocked PayPal out of my life. I've been screwed over by them
so many ways over the past 15 years it's impossible to count. I refuse to do
any business which requires their services.

~~~
sverige
Same here. Never. Again. It only took once, but that was enough.

I'm actually surprised that people are just discovering how much PayPal sucks
as a service this late in the game. They have had verifiable horror stories of
seizing people's money and property for well over a decade.

I've skipped purchasing things that I really wanted when the only option for
payment was PayPal. I always send a nice message to the seller to let them
know exactly why I decided not to purchase their product / service.
Surprisingly few respond, so I guess they're doing great with their current
setup.

------
gist
Snarkly I will mention that this is the same company that 'HN darling' Elon
Musk was part of prior to his current life. Everything that everyone hates
about paypal existed back then.

~~~
stupidhn
> _Elon Musk was part of prior to his current life._

I also find this interesting. Musk's startup history is often cited as
evidence of his serial success, but it's hardly mentioned that the startup
that earned his fortune is widely detested as a "necessary evil".

------
oliwarner
You regularly transfer money with this guy but you're both happy eating
transfer fees every time?!

Seriously? Wtaf? BACS and Faster Payments (through your banks) are free.
You're literally pelting the Devil with your money for getting in the way.

~~~
throwaway2048
almost no American banks support either, there are extremely limited bank to
bank transfer options in the USA. You can do a wire transfer but you are
looking at $50+ in fees

~~~
beojan
The author is British, so I don't see how this is relevant.

------
mxstbr
This exact same thing happened to me, though I was thankfully allowed to
withdraw my money and open a new account with the same bank details.

Call your local PayPal support hotline and explain to them what happened, I
was immediately escalated to higher level support who had me provide details
of why the money was in my account, which they verified and then unlocked the
withdrawal and bank accounts. Still had to make a new account, but that's a
small price to pay!

~~~
iDemonix
I was tempted to call, but I just managed to refund the money (sans fees) to
my friend and we'll use something else now. I'm not going to call or contact
them at all, I'm no longer interested in using their services. I'm just going
to unlink my account from everything and spread some well-deserved hate within
a useful PSA.

------
iDemonix
Interestingly, this article just tanked from 6th to 38th according to
hnrankings.info, maybe I've found a conspiracy for my next Medium article.

~~~
grzm
What you've likely observed is the "overheated discussion detector" algorithm
kicking in: this submission has received a relatively large number of comments
in a short period of time. If you have a concern or questions, I recommend
contacting the mods via the Contact link in the footer.

~~~
striking
> "overheated discussion"

That's the most polite synonym for "flamewar" I've ever heard. I'm going to
use that.

~~~
grzm
It is nice, isn't it? I picked it up from 'dang:

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22overheated%20discussion%22%...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22overheated%20discussion%22%20author:dang&sort=byDate&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment)

------
omfg
Do people not realize PayPal has phone support? It's not some black hole of
support. Just call them up like a normal company... they've been helpful for
any odd issues we've had in the past.

~~~
Hydraulix989
The phone support is absolutely terrible. After spending 15 minutes on hold,
you get connected with script readers with indecipherable foreign accents, and
if they can't help you because it's not on their script (yes, I know how to
use a web site, here's why the steps you gave me won't work), they advise you
to open a case in the Resolution Center just to get you off the phone -- where
I have one pending now for over six months (I paid an eBay seller who didn't
ship me my item and whose account got banned by eBay shortly after I purchased
it, so I can't open a claim on eBay to get a refund -- as a buyer, the UI for
opening an eBay claim is completely inaccessible if a seller's account is
banned. PayPal insists it's an eBay problem and I should talk to eBay, eBay
insists it is a PayPal problem and that I should talk to PayPal; it's
deadlocked). If you mention the word "eBay" at all to PayPal on the phone,
they immediately transfer you to eBay (and vice versa). Classic game of "pass
the buck." At one point, I managed to stump the PayPal script reader (my
unique situation wasn't on the script), so they just transferred me to another
T1 agent. There's zero recordkeeping at all (likely no ticketing system), so
nobody knows anything at all about my case so it's like I'm talking to them
for the first time any time I'm talking to a new person.

So yes, it is some black hole of support.

~~~
omfg
They definitely have a ticketing system, and they do have support that knows
what they're doing. Maybe it's just business support or something? We haven't
run into issues like this when we call.

~~~
Hydraulix989
I'm using the normal customer service number 1 (888) 221-1161 that you get
just by Googling for it. If you know some other way to get actual support,
please do share. I want my money back!

Until then, I'll believe it when I see it (extraordinary claims require
extraordinary evidence).

------
wishinghand
Is there a list of good PayPal alternatives besides Stripe? Bonus points for
companies that work outside of the USA.

~~~
mdekkers
Curious: What's the issue with Stripe? Also, in Europe you can look into
GoCardless.

~~~
luelistan
Also, in Europe you can just do a SEPA wire transfer. It's free with all
reasonable banks, can be done from the online banking interface and takes only
one business day.

~~~
nraynaud
I think it's free by regulation now.

~~~
mdekkers
No, unfortunately some banks (in Cyprus, for example) still charge. They also
ignore the directive in terms of time to process transactions

------
a012
I'm 30s and living in SEA, opening PayPal with CitiBank card and provided
proofs (scan of ID and bank statements) then they immediately closed my
account. They just stated that my info wasn't met their standards. So fine, I
don't use PayPal otherwise.

------
qb45
If you opened your PayPal account _at all_ , close it now and open another for
the next payment. Rumor has it that PP cares much more about not pissing off
new customers than the old ones.

This works pretty well for me ever since my first account had been locked for
bullshit reasons when I needed it most, of course with the money locked
inside. Thankfully it was almost nothing, but thank you PP for reminding me to
never keep anything of value in there.

Granted, I only use PP when I absolutely must, which is no more than maybe
once a year, so setting and tearing down these accounts is no big deal. I
traditionally select "poor customer service" and "worry about security" as the
reason I quit :)

------
5ilv3r
I too started a paypal account when I was underage with mother's permission,
help, and her checking account attached so I could sell thrift store finds on
ebay. I've been with them over 10 years and never used another payment
service. Uhg.

------
kennydude
Look at opening a Monzo account, lets you have a monzo.me link to get paid in
the UK.

Shame we don't have anything like Square Cash :(

~~~
jbrooksuk
I have a Golden Ticket if you'd like it.

------
mvrekic
Ah PayPal, all the power of a bank, none of responsibility.

------
zepolen
The day Bitcoin will replace Paypal for online transactions can not come fast
enough.

~~~
p49k
As much as I dislike PayPal, I would never want to trade it for Bitcoin. All
it takes is one zero-day exploit for all of my funds to disappear at once
without a trace. Any purchase I would make has zero protection and zero
recourse for recovering funds if I'm ripped off. No, thanks. I just want
something like PayPal, but that is run by people who have empathy and care
about providing a good experience.

~~~
nicky0
Depends how you store your bitcoin. You can't zero-day exploit a cold wallet.

~~~
p49k
I don't use bitcoin, so I might be missing something, but don't you have to
transfer funds from the cold wallet to your device at some point, and doesn't
that mean that any malware waiting on your device could just grab the whole
thing at that exact moment?

In any case, even if you could secure the wallet, it still doesn't address the
fact that once the funds are sent, they're not recoverable; I think it's
unreasonable to expect a payment system with no rollback mechanism to go
mainstream.

~~~
maxerickson
It should be possible to generate a transaction on a secure system and only
move that to the networked system.

The transaction data would only be useful for the specific transaction, it
couldn't be used to move funds to addresses not in the transaction or to move
additional funds between the addresses, etc.

It'd be a glorious pain in the ass to do it, but it is possible.

~~~
floatboth
IIRC Armory provides a user interface for doing this. Still, that's probably
too paranoid for most typical transactions.

------
a3n
> I’m not really sure what half a year of holding on to my money will help
> PayPal achieve?

If they have a pile of similar money (likely, by the stories we hear), then
they earn interest, and may (IANAA) be able to point to that cash as an
"asset" in situations where they need to show assets.

~~~
dsacco
No, that's illegal. A financial institution cannot represent customers' assets
as its own. Those are not company assets, they're liabilities (because they're
not owned, they're owed).

------
tanto
Seriously vote with your money and just close it. I just did. More and more
big companies think they can treat customers however they like. Paypal just
seems to be a frontrunner. I just voted and closed Paypal. At least in Germany
we got many other options.

------
StreamBright
Paypal just cancelled my PP CC because I was late with payment twice. They
autocancel it. I have looked into why I was late and realized that PP failed
to process my payment. I asked them how come a failure on their end causes
this but tey never replied.

------
theWheez
Ha! Apparently I signed up for paypal 3 days before my 18th birthday. What are
the odds.

------
ben0x539
Is there a way to find the precise age of your paypal account retroactively?
It says mine was created the year of my 18th birthday, and I'm sure I did it
all above-board, but it'd be nice to have it confirmed.

Update: It _looks_ like you can get some day/month number if you check your
account limits at [https://www.paypal.com/de/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_lift-
limits](https://www.paypal.com/de/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_lift-limits) if you
still have any, and combine them with the year it actually displays in the
account settings. Makes me feel better at least.

~~~
aselzer
Or search for the "Welcome to Paypal" email if you haven't deleted it. Turns
out my account was created when I was 14.

~~~
ben0x539
Yeah, looks like my mail backlog for that account falls a few years short. I
guess I didn't know about IMAP back then, or had weird ideas about data
retention. :/

------
pdog
I close and reopen a PayPal account for every individual PayPal transaction I
(rarely) need to make. It's a hassle, but I see no alternative if I don't want
the account-based "features".

------
tangerine11
Thanks for the heads up! I normally only use PayPal for purchases, but I
looked up my email logs and realized I did create it when I was 17. it was
easy enough to close my account and open another.

~~~
iDemonix
I wish I'd known prior so I could have done the same, I've spent all day
having to try and transfer accounts for hosting and so on. At least it'll help
others avoid the same, takes away some of PayPal's 'get out of jail free'
cards and maybe convinces a few people to stop funding them!

------
peterburkimsher
I signed up for PayPal (and eBay) on my 18th birthday, before I even got
dressed and went downstairs to eat breakfast.

I'm still worried that they might want to block me though, because I have more
than one account. PayPal accounts must be linked to a bank account in the same
country. So I now have different PayPal accounts in the UK, US, New Zealand,
Korea, and Taiwan.

~~~
linkmotif
Why were you so enthusiastic to sign up for PayPal and eBay?

~~~
peterburkimsher
My parents had always been helping me buy things online. I lived in the middle
of nowhere, so online shopping was my only way to buy things I wanted. The
freedom to do this by myself without asking them every time was a huge step
for me, coming of age. If you're American, I guess it's like driving a car for
you. (I still can't drive).

~~~
linkmotif
Ah, got ya. Cool! Sounds like a huge day :). Googled your name and found you
GitHub page. Seems like you've travelled the world a lot since then. Wow!

------
mamon
Forgive me if I sound dumb, but why bother creating PayPal account in the
first place?

If you are mostly buyer, then online payment is already easy (few clicks and 1
SMS password away).

If you are seller, setting up your website to support credit card payments
takes maybe two hours.

I really don't see the use case for PayPal, especially given the constant
complaints.

------
ultim8k
Yeah. Paypal are plain street robbers. Not only they charge like you a church,
but they have awful support considered that you trust them with your money.
Unfortunately as a freelancer I had to use them, but I moved asap to a bank
solution. Today that so many fintech startups are there, there is no reason to
use them.

------
thriftwy
It was long obvious to me that PayPal is one of those "good while it lasts"
entrprises.

As in, you should factor in from the day one that they might stop working with
you at any random moment. They never contributed towards any other image.

(I wonder if you can sue them in locales where they're legally a bank)

~~~
lucaspiller
Banks really aren't that much better. My employer is based in the US, and it
took around 3 weeks for their bank to setup the wire transfer to pay me here
in Europe.

As such they sent my first pay cheque via Paypal. As it was a large amount my
account was limited, but after uploading the documents and a quick phone call
(their phone support are a lot better than their email and chat support), my
funds were unfrozen.

------
GBond
The bright side is now that its on HN, you have a high chance the issue will
be resolved for you.

~~~
iDemonix
I've managed to recoup most of the money (minus fees, after 30 minutes of
digging and switching to the classic UI), I'm not interested in using PayPal
anymore. The good thing about it being on HN/Medium and getting some views is
hopefully I'll save a few people the same hassle.

------
cannonpr
Hopefully between virtual credit card providers, invoicing providers for b2c
like klarna, cryptochains, challenger banks like monzo... one of them will
land PayPal in hot water, it's about damn time, they are one of the most toxic
companies online.

------
prklmn
Is there a bitcoin solution that looks like this without having either party
directly deal with bitcoin?:

currency in bank account of person 1 --> bitcoin --> currency in bank account
of person 2

or

credit card of person 1 --> bitcoin --> currency in bank account of person 2

~~~
Dylan16807
That sounds like a scenario that only gets the downsides of bitcoin and no
benefits.

~~~
prklmn
Why is that? The risks of holding bitcoin would be avoided.

~~~
Dylan16807
But all the security risks and complications are still borne by someone,
presumably the company doing the transaction.

Both users need to trust that company, so they don't gain anything by the use
of bitcoin. They in fact lose money because of the extra transaction fee, and
possibly more in conversion fees/inefficiencies.

Oh and there's privacy loss too from putting it on the blockchain.

The only 'benefit' is that there's a sticker saying "now with bitcoin!". No
party involved gains anything.

------
kmfrk
I was asked to "confirm" my credit card a while back, but I don't have the
supposed charge on my credit statement.

So I shot them a support ticket to sort things out.

Like over a month ago.

I don't see how it's possible to manage your company so incompetently.

------
Animats
Don't deal with any payment system you can't sue in small claims court.

~~~
GavinMcG
Speaking of which, why can't this be resolved that way?

~~~
Animats
PayPal's customer contract forces arbitration. Although you can opt out within
30 days after sign-up. That has to be done by paper mail, to make it maximally
inconvenient.

[1] [https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-
full](https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full)

~~~
EpicBlackCrayon
Wow, that's some shady shit.

------
MatCarpenter
As someone who has been working online since 16 years old, this worries me.

~~~
a3n
[If you are underage] have your parents or some other trusted adult relative
open an account for the sole purpose of receiving your payments.

------
JustSomeNobody
In the image of the email you got from them it looks like they are telling you
to create a new account. You can't do that and have them xfer over the money
to the new account?

------
Friedduck
Every story I've ever read about PayPal is a cautionary tale not to ever use
or rely upon PayPal.

Of course like others I use it for eBay but never, ever, for anything
important.

------
michaelmrose
Can we shorten this to if you have a paypal account close it? Who wants to
send money to a company that may or may not actually let you access your own
money?

------
mk-61
I would really like to see amount of customers who have no problems with PP
against customers who had. That would be the best, objective and simple
analysis.

------
milankragujevic
I hate PayPal, but thankfully I created my account in my mom's name when I was
12 so I think I'm safe, will create another one in a year.

------
jtth
When did they add the 18 thing? Mine's fine and I've had it open since 2000,
when they barely had a website, let alone a good EULA.

------
thiagocsf
At this point I cannot hold any sympathy for people in tech getting screwed
over by PayPal.

We have all read the horror stories and, if you're still using them, you've
got no one else to blame but yourself. At which point you will write your own
horror story with the faint hope that it goes viral and forces PayPal to make
things right.

This is specially true for someone who, like OP, immediately liquidises the
asset. Pick a digital currency, any currency.

------
linkmotif
PayPal has good rates on micropayments ($0.05 + 5%). But they terrify me.
Anyone know of any competitive processors?

------
exabrial
I prefer Google wallet for P2P payments... If zcash ever takes off that's be
my preferred currency of choice

------
Knight_Rider
You can simply refund the money and tell your friend to send somewhere else ,
well that's what I did

------
znpy
I registered when I was 15. I guess I should make sure to use paypal as little
as possible from now on.

------
njharman
In some/many? jurisdictions contracts are not enforceable against people under
age of 18.

------
DSingularity
Why does anybody use paypal anymore? Go buy litecoin or ethereum. You can then
send anybody anywhere money in an instant. If you afraid of volatility not
going your way, buy bitcoin -- its more stable.

Sure, cryptocurrency is not stable in value yet... but its getting better --
fast.

~~~
chrischen
The reality is as PayPal is one of the oldest payment companies, their vast
feature coverage covers so much more use cases. It probably has the most
extensive international support out of any payment processor, it can be used
for programmatic payouts and handles 1099 forms or other tax forms by default.

It also means they have a lot of legacy APIs, complicated overlapping
features. However one thing they should be fixing, but they aren't, is their
terrible customer service. Their product should work for all their customers,
and if it doesn't, they should be bearing the cost of making it work with
decent customer service.

------
chmike
How come there is no competitor and alternate solution to PayPal ?

------
jrrrr
Thanks! Closed.

------
nikon
Just closed my account. Have you tried Transferwise instead? You'd save a
fortune on fees.

~~~
pyvpx
you have to transfer to another currency. you cannot do transfers within the
same currency (USD to USD or EUR to EUR) with TransferWise.

they are _excellent_ for foreign exchange, however.

------
NietTim
Fuck.

~~~
iDemonix
My initial response.

------
zajd
Good enough reason to close my account, thanks for the heads up. Fuck PayPal.

~~~
iDemonix
I wanted to end the article with 'Fuck PayPal' but I felt it was implied by
that point.

I've spent my entire Saturday so far logging in to things and updating them to
use credit cards. Unfortunately there is one thing so far I'm struggling to
use without PayPal, but I've contacted them and will hopefully resolve that
one.

What's even more annoying is I could use the PayPal account of my other half
for now, but she thinks she opened hers around 16/17 too so I'm not taking
that risk.

------
Neliquat
PSA: Do not use PayPal for any reason, they are unethical and unreasonable.

How many more times must this happen to people?

------
Bud
All this, plus, Peter Thiel founded it. So you know, a priori, that it sucks.

~~~
misiti3780
so did Musk ....

------
phkahler
I bet his practice of "share money with friends and family" looks shady. I
mean who sends a friend 300 bucks with a 19 dollar fee. If you do a lot of
that it probably looks like drug dealing or something. Last time I bummed a
few hundred from family or friends: never.

~~~
a-saleh
I do. I.e. my wife's sister helped my then-girlfriend-now-wife to pay for part
of her living expenses when she studied. Now we, as a way of paying it forward
help out her younger brother at college in similar fashion. And because
sometimes I had to send him money across country border, it would look quite
similar to "300 bucks with 19 dollar fee".

------
carsongross
_> I’m not really sure what half a year of holding on to my money will help
PayPal achieve _

It doesn't help them. If it were possible they would complete every
transaction with minimal fuss.

The reason transferring money is so difficult is due to governments who wish
to prevent capital flight, "laundering", etc. Paypal fought against this
intensely early on.

~~~
loeg
My traditional bank has fewer restrictions on money movement and _far_ better
customer service when further verification is needed than Paypal. They have to
comply with the same regulations.

