
South African Dept of Education effectively bans FOSS - tonteldoos
http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123
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buyx
I can't get to to the article, but I've read about the issue elsewhere. This
outrage is a bit misplaced:

1) South African teachers/vendors/Education Departments lack the skills to
manage non-Microsoft systems. Yes it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

2) Java is not really a great first programming language (see Joel on
JavaSchools). Pascal, and, later Delphi have been taught for years, and are
well understood by teachers. They should probably just dump Delphi, and stick
to Pascal. Attempts to look "relevant" end up looking foolish.

In the early-mid 1990's, when I was in what's today called grade 8 and 9 I did
LOGO, for non-examinable Computer Studies, and it was brilliant. Although I
didn't choose Computer Studies for my later school years(where Pascal was
used), when I got to university, my positive early experiences drew me back
into the world of CS. I doubt I would have gotten the same visceral thrill
that I got from LOGO, if I had to wrestle with AWT or Swing at the time.

School Computer Studies is NOT meant to be a gateway to a career, and there
are plenty of post-school options for people who want to become programmers.
Computer Studies isn't even a prerequisite for university CS - everything is
taught from scratch again. It also seems like recent graduates of some of the
insitutions ("Universities of Technology", formerly Technikons) that
supposedly focus on carreer preparedness struggle with concepts like writing
loops. Perhaps these Technikons and programming colleges should also focus on
the basics first, before worrying about "career readiness".

SA schooling is a mess. Maths and science teachers don't understand their
subjects. Teacher unions obstruct reform. We have sunk to the bottom in the
world rankings. This particular issue is a meaningless distraction.

~~~
Nanzikambe
Yes indeed, the freedom to chose a F/OSS alternative in a environment where
software is 60-70% of the TCO of a PC, is a _BAD_ thing because _learning isn
't in the job description of teachers_.

I do disagree with this oft regurgitated anecdotal (sorry in advance) shite
:-P

~~~
disputin
"I do disagree with this oft regurgitated anecdotal (sorry in advance) shite
:-P"

"A long time ago, in a country I won't name, I was contracted to provide..."

:P

~~~
Nanzikambe
I think you'd need to cite other examples of me, specifically, relating that
story to qualify it "as oft regurgitated" _and_ anecdotal, and as my anecdote
doesn't set out to present the case for less choice being good, I'd argue
relevance :)

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bdcravens
_made me as angry as I have ever been in my life_

Wow - if the author has lived a life where software limitations are the
greatest injustice experienced, then I am truly jealous.

~~~
EtienneK
No, I think he's mad about the blatant corruption behind the decision. Our
government does't even hide it anymore.

------
all2well
The title makes this out to be worse than it actually is: SA didn't actually
ban all software under permissive licenses, but requires the use of non-free
software to complete its courses. Though I'm not extremely in-tune with SA
politics/education, I can't imagine they have much money, making it all the
stranger that they'd lock themselves into licensing with Microsoft instead of
using free software.

~~~
tonteldoos
Re the title: yes, and no. At first glance it seems alarmist, but if you take
into account the wider implications (no exposure to free alternatives, extra
cost to a population mired in poverty, and general lack of exposure to IT for
large parts of the population), it's not too far from the truth.

Funding for the education department has been increased drastically over the
last decade or so, but misappropriation of funds, mismanagement, corruption,
ineptitude, geographical separation, lack of proper oversight, and just the
sheer pressure on the system in terms of the amount of learners it needs to
support means this is just another thing that reduces the value for the
learners from tax money.

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joseph_cooney
I had to drill into the PDF linked from the article to learn that SA (in this
case) refers to the Republic of South Africa.

~~~
tonteldoos
My bad...I only realised a few minutes ago it could be South Australia (and
definitely a few others) too...

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adestefan
SA is South Africa for anyone else who is wondering.

~~~
tonteldoos
Fixed now ;)

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diadara
Why don't anyone listen to rms ?
[http://www.gnu.org/education/education.html](http://www.gnu.org/education/education.html)

~~~
rimantas
How do you listen to him after gems like this: "Free Software supports
education, proprietary software forbids education"? You know what? I got my
education without software free or proprietary. I also saw many getting
education and knowledge using proprietary software. Does Internet Explorer ban
you from going to wikipedia or coursera? Heck, I even educated myself about
free and open source software using Windows. Model of the world where FOSS is
at the center of the universe and rms is the brightest star in it is hardly
correct.

------
Nanzikambe
As an IT professional that has lived in RSA and several other countries in the
region, I have to say this is absolutely common place.

Local industry giants with preferred partner/solution provider status with
<INSERT GIANT CORP HERE> will lobby and get F/OSS solutions knocked out of the
running especially where public tenders are involved. They will of course then
use the corrupt officials co-opted into this process to milk the budget for
absurdly expensive solutions to non-existent problems.

A long time ago, in a country I won't name, I was contracted to provide local
support for the installations of PCs in rural schools. Upon turning up at the
regional center, I had access to a warehouse with a gigantic stack of PCs to
be delivered. I merrily went about installing them at every school locally.
I've never had more fun or a better challenge, every installation was unique.
One site needed a full solar installation because of proximity to a township
where power theft was rampant meant electricity on the schools side was
virtually never available. At another site, I teamed up with a local carpenter
to build 30 simple desks and benches, leaving the hardware sitting on bare
concrete floors seemed absurd. For seven months this went on, I never saw
another contractor doing the same as I did, yet the pile of PCs diminished so
I assumed there must be several others. I queried to find out who they were so
we could coordinate, I didn't want to spend hours driving to a site only to
find they'd already been. That never happened and I never did get a response.

The problems begun when it came to more remote areas. Firstly there was
significantly more hardware per student allocated for the rural areas, than
urban areas, which was puzzling. Secondly I was not permitted to go and
install them, I was told my fuel expenses wouldn't be covered. When I offered
to waive those, I was told there was no point, because they would require
upgrades shortly. The vendor advised we leave them another two months and they
would have the service packs rolled out in the central storage site, then the
hardware could be delivered. Their stated intention was to save the local govt
money. How very noble. Over the course of the next month, that pile of
undeliverable hardware diminished significantly as the various people from the
purchasing process cashed in by selling it to local vendors on the cheap, some
of it was probably re-exported. Who knows. Nobody cares, there was no
investigation, that was over a decade ago - the entire process has probably
repeated several times since then.

It's absurd. It's arrogant. It's corrupt. It's ultimately detrimental to
everybody involved and robs the most desperate of a resource that just might
have lifted them out of poverty. It's Africa. Sorry for the ramble, I never
can just explain how much I love and hate that place.

Edit: spellin'

~~~
microcolonel
This is why I always urge people to consider private charity whenever
possible, and always ask for accountability.... Of course, government also
decides who's allowed to operate tax-free charities, so the market smells.

The government will always do whatever they can for the appropriate campaign
favours, a politician or official gives absolutely no care as to how the
programs continue after their term, since it doesn't matter; this works
especially well when you can tack expenses onto a debt rather than stealing
more immediately.

~~~
Nanzikambe
Unless the charity actually operates their own direct distribution outlet in
the target country, let me bust your bubble: all that donated gear? It gets
sold.

Go to any township market in any Southern African nation you like, those
clothes being sold? Go ask them to buy the tarpaulins they were bound in, I
guarantee you three things: they'll be blue, the logo will feature a laurel
wreathe encircling a globe, and the first two letters will be U and N. You'll
probably have noticed them already because many stalls in the market will be
using them for roofing.

~~~
microcolonel
Right, thus the accountability bit. Most distribution of goodies intended for
those who can't get ahold of them ends up with yet another theft and pawning,
regardless of where the goodies come from and how they're distributed.

Of course, UN involvement brings brothels along with the tarps.

Do you know of any charities which actually offer direct distribution?

~~~
Nanzikambe
I don't believe in aid or charity in the "give away something in return for a
tingly sensation of benevolence" sense. That accomplishes nothing, it
increases corruption and lets the donor off with the impression that they've
accomplished something that they haven't.

That said, there're some who make it work. The names escape me (it was long
ago) but I've always been impressed with the work of some of the missionaries
in the region - they're actually on the ground effecting change and helping
people. From what I've seen they tend to avoid unilateral
donation/collections, but go in for the specifics. For instance, the school I
installed the 30 desks at, they donated virtually all the classroom equipment
and props along with an instructor to help local teachers integrate the new
material into their classes. As I understand it the financing for all that
came from donations through collections in their churches. Now whilst I'm an
atheist, that impressed me. The peacecorps too, I've met a lot of them and
their hearts are definitely in the right place.

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ismail
while the south african govt say they support oss and all gov departments
ahouod be using it, in practice they hardley ever implement oss. there is
actually a project on git hub to use information access laws to perform a ln
audit on the use of oss

Using MS office makes sense, since majority of businesses use MS office.

Though I would question the use of delphi, someone else posted that delphi is
popular in South Africa. As one, I disagree most of the code still being
written in delphi is mostly legacy code.

The delphi dev shops have since moved on to .net for e.g my first job was a co
that used delphi.

one of the biggest users of delphi in za (mr price) , now mostly do their dev
in .net

I think a language like python or ruby would be a much better option.

~~~
ismail
Sorry about the repeat post. Posted from one of the mobile apps seemed to have
messed up somehow.

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kaonashi
Delphi… Delphi? Delphi?!?!

~~~
rurounijones
I am really having trouble understanding how anyone could choose Delphi
without some sort of corruption going on.

~~~
tonteldoos
Turbo Pascal was the standard when I was in high school (matriculated in 98).
No idea what has been used in the interrim, although the article makes it look
like Java, among other things. If this hadn't been the case, I could
understand Delphi, but it makes very little sense now.

~~~
foobarbazqux
Pascal is a pretty good teaching language, Java is hopelessly complex. Delphi
is too bloated for intro stuff. Simple, featureless, procedural languages that
are not C are pretty good for beginners.

~~~
tonteldoos
I'd be tempted to agree, but in that case you can even look at things like VB
(in whichever flavour). You would need to somehow keep the subjects relevant
to the current environment too, otherwise the clued up kids will get bored,
and the less clued up ones will be more clued up, but in mostly irrelevant
tech (school IT doesn't teach abstract computer science - it teaches stuff you
can use to a degree).

------
auctiontheory
It's not just a technologically absurd decision, the resulting expense is a
terrible injustice for the children of South Africa.

The Evil Empire never stops. The next time you hear someone blather on about
the Gates Foundation, tell them about this story.

~~~
Nanzikambe
This is probably a dumb question, but why is your text in gray?

~~~
isxek
His comment was downvoted by other users. (Not me, though - I don't have
enough rep/karma points yet.)

