
Microsoft, I Forgive You - valgaze
https://m.signalvnoise.com/microsoft-i-forgive-you-2fb6d6061a2c?source=linkShare-6e71c82557e2-1477582208
======
nailer
I felt the same way for years - I was a Slashdotter, used to run a Linux
desktop for about a decade and talk about 'MS' and occasionally use a dollar
sign. Hey, I was 20, everyone was doing it.

I recently had a conversation about how much I like powershell on HN. Someone
called me a 'microshill' and I smiled a smile that comes with age.

~~~
iotscale
I use Windows daily, and I'm not sure how to feel when I consider the daily
attempts against my choices and privacy. It feels like they try to be nice but
unintentionally mess up sometimes.

Feelings aside, they've done solid open source work, quality of which can't be
overstated.

But... Powershell, really? The Linux subsystem exists now, you know :)

edit: the Powershell thing was just an opinion tease, come on everyone^^

~~~
fullofit
> But... Powershell, really? The Linux subsystem exists now, you know :)

Piping objects is better than parsing text.

~~~
Kurtz79
Every time I fired up powershell to give it a try, I'm always immediately
turned off by:

\- How sluggish it feels. A remote bash shell on a raspberry pi feels more
responsive to me than a local PS on a beefy PC.

\- The way it is opened as a command prompt, in an unresizeable window (unless
you fiddle with the settings every time), with no possibility of using
shortcuts for copy/paste.

\- Also, the default color scheme and font is horrible. I'm aware that it is
trivial to fix it in the settings, but why turn off immediately first time
users ?

For a normal user (not an IT admin) what are the benefits of learning
Powershell for normal day use ?

What would be the best place to start, are there some good tutorials ?

~~~
pjc50
If you think powershell is slow, try powershell ISE; it's even slower.

Speaking of remote, the whole mechanism of PS remoting has never made sense to
me either. It should work like SSH: encrypted interactive session across a
well-defined port.

~~~
nailer
Agreed, coming from a Windows background posh remoting is just odd.
Thankfully:

    
    
        get-packagesource -provider chocolatey
    
        install-package openssh
    

It's beta but I use it as a daily driver.

------
golfer
I'm not sure I feel the same way, and I will probably be downvoted for it.

Microsoft's entire existence is largely based on incredibly aggressive,
(perhaps) unethical behavior against its perceived rivals. FUD, threats of
litigation and patent extortion, etc. Trying to destroy the entire open source
movement. Why do they need forgiveness? They are a profit-seeking entity that
has tried to crush many things I hold dear. Think about where we'd be today if
Microsoft actually succeeded in what it set out to do long ago. It's only
because they failed that we are having this discussion.

~~~
vonklaus
I agree with the sentiment in the article because of an important point you
mentioned:

> Think about where we'd be today if Microsoft actually succeeded in what it
> set out to do

As DHH points out; and to a similar vein if we swap Google for Microsoft in
your quote above, fragmenting the industry is the safest and best way to serve
users. Google seems to have succeeded in it's goal to control the worlds
information-- and whether you believe this or no; having 3 powerful entities
competing with each other is much better than many small ones trying to
dethrone a hostile winner.

Small startups will always try and innovate where they can, but there are now
different inroads as a single leader can not always banish them.

I agree with you. I agree on the macro-scale. I do not want one company to
have the ability to do the things you mentioned. I am sure Microsoft is doing
much of this new initiative out of self-interest, but it is good for the
community. I like vscode, they have an extremely easy to use && intuitive
Azure interface and a massive amount of open courses and docs on how to use
it, and tons of other code, docs, resources ect.

I don't want Amazon to be the only cloud provider.

I don't want google to be the only search engine.

I don't want os x/win to be the only 2 operating systems.

I don't want Apple to be the only vertically integrated handset maker.

I don't want a single option for payment/wallet

I don't want a single app store.

All these things are better addressed when there is competition, and the
competition between several large players leaves room for smaller companies to
enter and innovate.

~~~
Grishnakh
The difference is, for all those things, there really is viable competition
out there.

There's lots of cloud providers besides Amazon (including MS themselves).

There's several search engines besides Google (again including MS's Bing, plus
DDG)

Apple isn't the only big handset maker. Samsung probably sells many more units
which are arguably much better (they have much better screens for instance,
plus SDcard slots). There's many, many more besides them too: Sony, Huawei,
LG, etc, and countless models from each.

There's many options for payment besides ApplePay: Google has something, plus
you can just use a regular debit or credit card or good ol' cash.

There's more than one app store: Apple has one and Google has one, and there's
a few other non-Google Android ones too.

In all these cases, the alternatives aren't some tiny little niche player,
they're huge. Apple sells a minority of smartphones today, though they make
the most profit.

The big standout is OSes: good luck finding a job that doesn't force you to
use Windows. If I want to avoid the big player in each of the other items in
your list, it's pretty easy to do. I can easily go without ever using Google
Search, or an iPhone, or ApplePay or the Apple app store. It's not that easy
for me to avoid having to use Windows; that shuts me out of a LOT of jobs
(almost all of them really). (Even worse if I want to avoid using either
Windows or OSX. Good luck with that.)

~~~
vonklaus
I think you missed the point I was making: diversity of ecosystems is
important. Microsoft provides diversity to many of the ecosystems above.
Having 2-3 competitors is much better than a single one, and Microsoft has
shown that they need to win developers by providing value to the community.

I think we agree that diversity is good, I disagree that their is _enough_.
OS's might be the _only_ one I think is diversified enough because between
Google, Win, OS X & numerous flavors of linux there are a lot of choices.
There is also "the web" and Solaris & BSD as well. Google is peerless for
search. Leaving aside email, apps & core other services like web
infrastructure, there is no replacement for google. It is important to realize
that not only is Google peerless, but that all search engines run PageRank. By
that I mean, they copy pagerank by creating extremely similar algorithims and
using all of the ideas google pioneered. No one has innovated in the search
space except google. backlink totals is an utterly meaningless metric and
authority/reputation are subjective.

Google has adjusted to their original thesis of course, however everyone else
adjusts to google. If you are selling something in a market that speaks
English, you want to be at the top of Google. That is it. SEO means google
optimization. No one can be better at being google than google, but I would
likek to see someone try and be better than them at search.

~~~
Grishnakh
>I think we agree that diversity is good, I disagree that their is enough.
OS's might be the only one I think is diversified enough

Here I completely disagree. In practice, there's only 2 PC OSes, the horribly
broken and intrusive Win10 and the overpriced walled-garden OS X. Almost no
one uses Linux on the desktop; even Linux fans have abandoned it from what I
can tell, to my chagrin (they've all gone to Macs). If you're talking server-
side, that's different and is really the only place where there's enough
diversity IMO.

As for Google being peerless, DDG works fine for me for most things. For
programming help, I use Google though. And everyone knows Google totally sucks
for porn.... (Bing is the leader here!)

Otherwise, I do agree that diversity is good, but my point before is that
there is reasonable diversity in most of those places. I don't feel any kind
of compulsion to get an iPhone, for instance. Android works just fine for me
and most people I know, and the iPhone users I know all seem to be deluded by
Apple's marketing, and also people who really have no business buying the most
expensive phone out there considering their finances.

~~~
Grishnakh
Addendum: this isn't to say that I wouldn't welcome more diversity in many
places. But it's not like people haven't tried: Microsoft still hasn't quite
thrown in the towel with Windows Phone, but it sure never went far. Blackberry
used to be a big thing, now it's basically dead. There were some other
attempts, like FirefoxOS, Meego/Maemo, etc. which all flopped hard. The
problem with a platform is that the things dependent on that platform become
powerful, so people choose their platform based on what runs on it. If I want
access to all the apps in the Google Play store, I need to run Android, not
WinPhone, for instance. The same thing has hampered Linux-on-the-desktop
adoption enormously (and not on webservers, since that's all standards-based
and frequently uses additional stuff like PHP and MySQL which run great on
Linux).

------
olyjohn
I don't forgive you.

I don't forgive you for putting ads on my Start Menu. Or on my lock screen. I
don't forgive you for taking away my choice on when I want to update my
computer. I don't forgive you for firing your QA team and then using the
public as your beta testers. For taking away features in Windows Pro that
could force people to upgrade to Enterprise. For us having to pay for support
on top of buying your software. For not allowing home users to turn off
Telemetry. For all of the product confusion and terrible naming conventions. I
won't even go into past practices...

I don't get how years of screwing everybody over can suddenly be turned around
with some marketing saying "we <3 linux" and open sourcing a few projects out
of desperation. They only <3 Linux because they have to. It's going to take a
long time for me to regain their trust.

~~~
dingo_bat
> putting ads on my Start Menu. Or on my lock screen

Anecdotal, but I haven't seen any ads in those places. Been using Win 10 since
the preview. I'm not a fan of the "metro" interface/apps. I _am_ a fan of the
underlying tech in Windows and the general focus on usability and reliability.
My laptop "just works" in every sense of the phrase, and it feels more
responsive to my choices and demands than competing platforms (OSX and
Ubuntu).

~~~
chadgeidel
There are ads for Microsoft products in the app store and ads for Office on
the start menu in "stock" Windows (installed from MSDN ISO - not from a
hardware vendor). The lock screen has an (optional?) theme which displays
high-res photos from Microsoft. Some of those photos have been game ads.

I personally think it's unobtrusive, but the ads are there.

~~~
flukus
The lock screen is especially annoying. They can show ads fine but it takes
several seconds to start accepting input from my keyboard.

~~~
dingo_bat
I don't see the logic of a lock screen. Why doesn't it directly enter my
password? Why must I swipe away the wallpaper to access the password box? I
mean it's not like my phone that I wake up the laptop just to look at the lock
screen notifications. If I wake up my laptop, I'm gonna unlock it! Really dumb
ui.

~~~
flukus
Probably because it is the phone UI.

------
thenewwazoo
If you'd told me ten years ago that I'd be working for Microsoft today, you'd
have made an enemy.

If you'd told me five years ago that I'd be working for Microsoft today, I'd
have laughed at you.

I sometimes still marvel that I work at Microsoft today, and don't hate myself
for it. In fact - and it's still a little hard to believe - I really like what
Microsoft has become, and I'm excited to contribute to it.

~~~
johnnycarcin
I couldn't agree more. When a friend reached out to me about joining him at
Microsoft my first response was "thanks but no thanks". He talked me into at
least listening to the pitch and it actually worked. Talking with some of the
old timers here at Microsoft it sounds like the culture has changed a ton (and
is still changing) so hopefully that will continue to trickle down into the
products.

~~~
amaks
Are you saying there is no backstabbing anymore? I left Microsoft in 2012 and
it was the worst place on the planet ever (granted, Ballmer was still running
the show). But can it change that much especially with all the layoffs they do
every year on clock basis?

~~~
CephalopodMD
Yeah, the Balmer way of evaluation has completely disappeared. SWEs are no
longer trying to remain outside the bottom 20% just to stay employed.
Everything about evaluation is now centered around getting things done,
helping others, and learning from others.

------
kar1181
I'm not on the forgive train yet, but with the Apple computer ecosystem (as in
things that look and behave like a PC-esque device) becoming increasingly
hostile, I'm actually seriously considering going back to Windows.

The deal breaker is having a unix shell. I have worked on a system with a
native unix environment for a decade and a half, going back to to the windows
shell is not an option.

Thankfully, the Linux Subsystem for windows works pretty well already and with
some further iteration I think it could become viable for most of my
development needs.

When that happens I don't feel any loyalty to apple and will happily move
over.

~~~
artursapek
I'm in the same boat as you. What do you think is still missing in their Linux
subsystem? I haven't gotten to play around with it yet, but my list of demands
is pretty small:

\- tmux works

\- vim works

\- bash works like on a Mac

~~~
matt_wulfeck
Processes don't work quite the same. There's no sysv init or systemd. There's
not good user separation within the shell (run all as root) and the file
permissions in places where the subsystem meet the PC are weird.

Those were my first impressions. I'm cautiously optimistic about it though,
and confident they'll work out the kinks with time. But right now it's still
better to be on BSD/Mac if you like a unix-like development environment
without running linux.

~~~
banashark
I'm curious what your use case for those are.

Are you needing to `init 1` or `systemctl isolate rescue.target`?

Or is it perhaps a need to `systemctl status` on services?

I might just not be that experienced with the wide use-cases for these
applications, but what are your hypothetical use cases?

~~~
matt_wulfeck
Really I just want a way to write simple service scripts and have the OS keep
them alive. upstart, sysv init, systemd, whatever works...

I don't like logging into my dev box and then manually starting one-off
scripts for all of the services that I like running (docker, dnsmasq, apt-
cache, foo.py, etc etc).

~~~
JdeBP
Then use the Ubuntu-packaged runit or daemontools; or port s6, perp,
daemontools-encore, or nosh.

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376)

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/daemontools-family.html](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/daemontools-family.html)

I don't know whether the Debian-packaged nosh will install on Ubuntu as it
stands.

* [http://jdebp.eu./Softwares/nosh/debian-binary-packages.html](http://jdebp.eu./Softwares/nosh/debian-binary-packages.html)

------
bitwize
No, sorry, to paraphrase Richard Gere, this is not a cuddly new Microsoft.
Though Windows got downgraded from "the literal bane of that part of my
existence that involves interacting with computers" to "death by a thousand
paper cuts". File I/O is still slow, process spawning is still slow, Windows
10 is a privacy clusterfuck, and there are endless other annoyances. No thank
you, I'll avoid all that if possible and stick with Linux.

I explained it to a friend thus. Imagine living in a world everyone drove a
Ford Pinto. You could try driving not-a-Pinto; however, people will look at
you funny and your boss may fire you. 99% of auto shops only sell Pinto parts
and there are some roads you can't go on, which will shred up your tires
because they're not Pinto tires. That was the situation in the Windows 9x era.

Later, after millions of complaints about the Pinto's tendency to explode,
Ford Motor company finally issues an upgrade option for the Pinto: the Ford
Taurus. You are still expected to drive a Taurus, and to use it for
everything, including grand touring, drag racing, and pulling heavy loads.
Some Taurus drivers assure me that their modern fuel-injected Taurus engine
_really is more powerful_ than the Cummins V8 diesel in my Dodge pickup, but I
will treat that story with suspicion until I see Tauruses pulling trailers
full of lumber or equipment up grades that the Dodge can't handle, and I
haven't seen that yet. But the status quo today is, at least, better than a
fucking Pinto.

That's where we are today.

------
untog
Agreed. The Surface Studio looks amazing - I'm not a creative type, so it
isn't really designed or intended for me, but boy do I want to play around
with one. And the Surface Book also looks phenomenal - when coupled with the
Linux subsystem, it could be a machine that does 90% of my daily tasks.

Unfortunately that remaining 10% involves running and debugging sites and apps
on iOS, which requires macOS. So I'm still on a Mac for now, but the
temptation to get a Hackintosh running inside a VirtualBox VM increases every
day...

~~~
kyriakos
I'm running hackintosh inside virtualbox on Windows 10. Works well but
obviously graphics performance is not great cause it's not officially
supported. I only use it to debug sites in safari and mobile safari.

~~~
untog
Yeah, I'm more and more tempted to do it. But I do also debug in XCode, and I
have a base resistance to relying on a personal hack project in my
professional life.

...but, so tempting.

------
satysin
For all the good steps Microsoft have made recently I still _hate_ that I
cannot run Windows 10 how _I_ want.

In the latest version, 1607, I can't even disable the lock screen when I
resume from sleep ffs. So frustrating.

------
ralmidani
I don't need to forgive Microsoft. I moved to GNU/Linux (Debian, thank you
very much) and never looked back.

All the drama regarding forced updates, stealing user bandwidth, etc. does not
affect me personally. But it does prove that once an abuser, always an abuser.

Once the dust settles on .NET, I may take a serious look at it. That doesn't
need me to forgive or trust Microsoft, since I can study the source code and
do whatever I want with it.

Once I learn how to set up my own reliable email server, I plan to dump GMail,
as well.

Edit: typo

------
AdmiralAsshat
Funnily enough, I am a lifelong Microsoft Windows user who only recently
switched to Linux because I got _fed up_ with Microsoft's continued W10 bull
__ __.

------
trymas
But what about infamous Win10 data collection, forced updates, etc.?

~~~
phr4ts
There are ways to block them. I use all of the following Netlimiter,
Glasswire, Spybot Anti-Beacon, disable Windows Update service (though it has a
habit of turning itself back on) and finally, Du Meter (This is the most
important. The network toolbar alerts me when something's downloading without
my permission)

~~~
snowwrestler
This is the Windows equivalent of the stereotypical Linux over-complicated
advice like "oh that's easy, just build from source but set the following
compiler flags..."

------
vanous
It is all about choices. As long as you know that alternatives exist, all is
fine. But for many people, there only is the Windows world. Or OSX. This is
how i don't want it to be for my children.

See...

I have been using Linux since 1999, exclusively since 2001, this includes home
and also business. Yes, there are lots of win specific software, but you know,
wine got so much better over the years, if really needed i can use VM and as
last resort, even reboot to win7.

As my kids been growing up, we have played many games on Linux (WOT Blitz,
WarThunder, Minecraft... some natively, some via steam, some via wine steam...
playonlinux has been interesting too, and not only for games... and i have
been amazed that all this has been possible. This all on a mid range laptop
randomly purchased, with full hardware support, touchscreen,
sleeping/resuming... you name it.

And my kids are proud to use Linux, knowing there are many people
contributing, rather then promoting large company, who, besides other bad
stuff, has been known for making fake police reports on stolen software in
this country.

So this is a good story, good experience. Certainly possible on any platform,
but sometimes good platforms are tainted by bad companies.

------
traviswingo
I used to always "wince" when I had to use Windows or other Microsoft
software. Now, Windows 10 is an absolute dream over previous versions, Office
is pretty much second to none, and Microsoft's initiatives into hardware
(Halolens) are pretty damn awesome. I'd say the company has made me into a
non-hater again.

~~~
pritambaral
Funnily enough I had the opposite transition. Sorta. I didn't mind Windows 7
so much, but Windows 10's user hostile behaviour makes me wince every time I
have to use it. And I have to use it for work because of Microsoft's own
hostile decisions (Skype for Linux can no longer do group video calls?
Seriously!?!).

I start a freshly installed Windows 10 instance on a desktop grade i7 with
Nvidia 960M and it takes minutes for me to be able to even type in the search
bar, ... because Windows decided to commandeer all my disk IO for Windows
Updates that I can't disable. At least Windows 7 acquiesced to my wishes.

~~~
triplebit
Skype on Windows shows Ads now.

------
Delmania
I think, based on my history, a lot of people would call me a shill, but I
still think it's important to stress the company is not perfect. There are
still question about the data collection in Windows 10 and the company still
does collect payments from Android vendors for the patents it owns.

There's still some elements of the "Evil Empire" left, but overall, from a
development and consumer device perspective, they do seem to be taking notes
of what's working in the market.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
It seems to me like if Microsoft would take a step back on telemetry and
cumulative forced updates, they'd have pretty much a home run. But it seems
like they're just outright ignoring any feedback on both issues until the
issues magically go away or stop talking about it.

~~~
Delmania
I'm honestly willing to give a pass on the forced updates. It's a hard place,
as most people will never run updates, and we end up with botnets taking down
Dyn. The downside, of course, is the debacle with the anniversary update. I
wish they had a better update process..

The telemetry, on the hand, really does need to be a lot more transparent and
much easier to opt out of...

~~~
ocdtrekkie
I understand it for consumers. If it was Home edition only, fine. The problem
is when Microsoft issues a cumulative update that A. fixes a critical
vulnerability and B. breaks network printing, as an IT administrator I have to
decide whether I want to leave a gaping security hole in our network until
Microsoft fixes the printing issue, or push the update and break everyone's
workflow until Microsoft fixes the printing issue.

In the past, I'd simply hold the update that breaks network printing, and push
the security update.

------
Analemma_
Whoa, didn't see this coming. During the event yesterday I was tweeting back
and forth with some people about what Microsoft's future prospects look like,
and someone said they're doomed because they'll never get developers back,
specifically citing DHH's "real programmers don't use Windows" rant. At the
time I thought it was time to re-examine that rant and maybe see if DHH was
wrong, but it looks like the guy himself beat us to the punch.

------
rmsaksida
I was close to forgiving them, but I'm holding onto my grudge because of
forced automatic updates.

~~~
gcp
Are you REALLY SURE you don't want to switch to Edge?

------
ChuckMcM
I've felt similarly about Microsoft. I disliked their strategy and their taste
for a long time. But I found their Surface Book announcement compelling and so
I bought one. It went through some bumps and hiccups, and it still isn't as
smooth as I would like, but it gave me the drawing experience I really wanted.
I still think a Surface Pro 4 with a cellular modem built in would be killer.
So if you're listening Surface team, go talk to the Nokia guys you bought and
get the radio/antenna from the Lumia series phones and find some place to
stick it inside your tablet please!

------
sbarre
On topic of "new Microsoft", has anyone spent decent time with the Linux
Subsystem for Windows 10?

I've been slowly putting it through its paces for my (admittedly simple) dev
workflows, which mostly involves web development tools like PHP, Ruby, git and
node-based toolchains, but so far it has been a pretty good experience..

~~~
yalooze
I second that. Have mostly been playing with it on some toy projects of mine
but works very well. Two main gripes:

1\. Filesystem performance is _very_ slow (ie. anything in /mnt), but I know
they're working on it

2\. I really wish I could get constant updates for WSL without having to opt-
in to the Windows Insider Program. There are things I know are already fixed
but I don't want to risk the whole OS just to play with an updated
BashOnWindows.

------
mixmastamyk
I might be willing to forgive (not forget) but not while MS is doubling down
with the "telemetry", ignoring privacy, forcing their corporate choices, and
in bed with government divisions of ill repute.

------
Touche
The console/terminal/command prompt/whatever is still hot garbage. I recently
installed Bash for Windows on my Windows 10 laptop excited that maybe I could
use it for dev again. Nope, uses the same terrible console that has been in
Windows since they dropped DOS.

If they really want to go after devs this needs to be an "all hands on deck"
thing they fix. Stop everything you are doing and focus exclusively on this.
Don't try to make incremental improvements to the existing terminal; start
from scratch.

Here are some requirements:

1) Copy/paste must just work like it does in all other app. Including
selection.

2) Standard menus, not right-click on the window chrome and "Properties".

3) Has to look decent by default. Not 8px fonts. Not 0px padding. Not a
scrollbar before there's anything to scroll. Make it look decent.

4) Tabs

That's it! I (and no one else) cares if its embeddable or not, just make a
terminal that is decent, like Terminal.app (which I don't use but is fine).

PS: Please do not reply with command prompt wrappers that try to fix these
issues. I've seen them all and they aren't good enough (through no fault of
their own, they have to work with the command prompt).

~~~
JdeBP
It's a console.

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-cli-is-not-a-dos-prompt.html](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-cli-is-not-a-dos-prompt.html)

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-command-interpreter-is-not-a-console....](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-command-interpreter-is-not-a-console.html)

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html)

The sad thing is that the Interix subsystem _did_ improve on the console,
giving it a far more complete terminal emulation for starters, and _Microsoft
owns it_. The WSL did not build upon this.

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935)

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935)

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/interix-terminal-type.html](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/interix-terminal-type.html)

------
daveloyall
Around three generations of users only know one kind of computer. These are
the people that hate computers.

Because _Excel_. Because _Abort, Retry, or Fail_ [0]. Because
software(license)-limited number of concurrent connections.

Because they delayed the release of features to maximize profit.

The world is in a mess today. I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know if
we'd be better or worse off if we'd had machines that were only limited by
hardware, not software, for all these years...

But I'll stand my ground, hold my grudge, just in case, thank you very much.
_Somebody_ 's got to keep an eye on them.

EDIT: Whoops, I forgot the footnote!

0: ARF would be great if there were any practical difference between Abort and
Fail... When you pick one or the other, a different errno is sent back to the
application. The application then could take a different path... Just like a
"Restart" in Common Lisp. However, MS's own flagship applications abstained
from such behavior, again missing an opportunity to demonstrate, to teach...

------
jejones3141
I'm not ready to forgive yet. There are very few places I can buy a computer
with Linux preinstalled, and too much Linux-unfriendly hardware, and I still
wonder when the UEFI hammer will fall.

------
bechampion
I have a windows 10 vm .. it applies updates every week that force me to
restart. No thanks.

~~~
mark_sz
I have MacBookPro with macOS - it applies updates every week that force me to
restart...

And...?

~~~
astrodust
You can turn those off, or ignore them. Either way.

Windows, by default, will kill your machine and reboot it to apply patches,
will install them when shutting down, and generally goes out of its way to be
as annoying as possible. You can turn this off, but it's a lot harder to
disable all the update settings.

~~~
mark_sz
how "harder" is it on Windows?

~~~
astrodust
There's several options to disable, whereas on macOS there's basically one.

The other problem is some of the Windows options are pretty buried, that
Control Panel is turning into a toxic waste dump.

------
lmm
My Surface Book is by far the nicest piece of hardware I've ever used. It does
everything, and is beautiful to boot.

------
protomyth
I can let bygones be bygones on the whole paying for Windows when I wasn't
buying the machine to run Windows, but I just cannot get over the whole
gathering of data they do and the choices they have taken away from Windows 10
Pro. The only version that really can have all of the stuff turned off is the
Enterprise edition which I cannot buy. If they got rid of the BS phone home
stuff, I would forgive. Until then, its just the same old crud modernized to
do it the Advertising way.

~~~
prodigal_erik
> whole paying for Windows when I wasn't buying the machine to run Windows

I can't get past that. Not only did they crush several companies trying to
sell _better software_ , but Gates gets to whitewash his reputation by
spending the stolen money instead of rotting in a cage.

------
oldmanjay
I can't help but want to be on the opposite side of whatever this guy is
talking about. His belief in the objective correctness of his own opinions
rivals Stallman's.

~~~
mirekrusin
That's an extremely subjective, irrational perspective, isn't it?

------
jmcdiesel
So DHH basically hates whoever is the successful one at the time, I guess (or
two).

Seems like the majority of the rest of the internet as well. Haters gonna
hate, for all time.

~~~
Roboprog
Easy to do: "power corrupts..." and such.

------
ebbv
This is just flat out wrong. Microsoft has improved a lot and is doing some
cool stuff but they are still doing horrible shady things too.

Windows 10 installs with very invasive default settings, and updates have re-
enabled those invasive settings, requiring users to be aware of that and go in
and turn them off again.

I applaud the moves to Open Source and standardization. But they have further
to go before I would call them a "puppy".

------
EdSharkey
Microsoft, if you open source Windows plus whatever SDK du jour (Win32, Win64,
et al) you want me to code against such that I can build from source where all
your telemetry and other "advertisers, advertisers, advertisers, advertisers"
nonsense are ripped the F--- out, THEN you'll get juuuust enough dispensation
from me that when you die you won't go to hell, just purgatory.

Forgiveness? Dream on.

------
happy-go-lucky
Linux is by programmers, for programmers, and also for power users who are
programmers in the making.

Windows' target audience is average users and these users are their main
source of revenue. A while ago, I said in another thread that their open
source efforts are a means to an end and nothing else. I also see their recent
subsystem for Linux as an halfhearted effort.

------
rootbear
I barely use Windows these days, mostly Mac and Linux both at work and at
home. I'm interested in the Linux subsystem in Windows 10 but haven't had time
to look at it. I'd like to believe that Microsoft is now a cuddly Teddy bear,
but the strong arm tactics around Windows 10 updates and the International
Harvester attitude about my personal data have been very off putting. Sadly,
Apple is getting arrogant about updates as well, spamming me constantly about
upgrading my phone to iOS 10. If they would both back off on some of that, I'd
be a lot happier.

Having said that, the video I watched yesterday of the Surface Studio
presentation was really impressive and I'm sure the content creation people
will love it. Apple seems to have decided that they no longer care about that
market, one they used to own. I'm saddened by that.

Edit: I especially liked the 3:2 aspect of the Studio screen! 16:9 is not the
One True Aspect Ratio!

~~~
UK-AL
The vast majority of iOS (popular)apps also have telemetry.

------
gottam
No matter who wrote this post, what it says, or what the people here say in
the comments this will always read as viral marketing as if people are paid to
praise microsoft.

It's a consequence of the fact I'm now wired to expect it, because these
companies have big budgets and actually do spend their money on astroturfing.

------
stcredzero
I think there's tremendous untapped potential in an easel-like all in one
workstation PC. I would love to make a serious stats package that has a round-
trip visual editor that generates code. For certain things that are very
process oriented, why aren't we making live diagrams of this stuff and letting
users edit those with large touchscreens?

(Disclosure: I once worked for a successful company that did this with
something as complex as energy scheduling, though it wasn't round trip.
(Didn't need to be.) I know that you can build useful, orthogonal, and darn
useful diagrams that allow one to do serious work.)

------
danbmil99
I think their most egregious sin revolves around document formats. Their
mendacity in pretending to support Open Standards while doing the exact
opposite was serious Dr. Evil shit.

------
craigvn
I think what has happened is Microsoft was perceived to be evil because they
held what was thought to be a monopoly and people don't like companies being
in that position, it makes them feel like they are always being screwed. Then
Google and Apple usurped them and people rejoiced, only to soon find out the
Apple and Google are just as dodgy and monopolistic as Microsoft was.

~~~
khattam
Monopoly in itself is bad for consumers. Google and Apple abuse their monopoly
in their specific markets not because they are "just as bad" but because they
have monopoly just like Microsoft does in it's own market.

------
digi_owl
And i just had to roll back the GPU driver because MS silently upgraded it, in
the process nuking my ability to use a external screen...

------
philix001
"Tim Sweeney claims that Microsoft will remove Win32, destroy Steam"

[http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now-
ti...](http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now-tim-sweeney-
thinks-that-microsoft-will-use-windows-10-to-break-steam/)

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Tim Sweeney has said this many times, but it's continually not held up. That
same month, Microsoft released an update to make it easier to install UWP apps
outside the Store. Steam could distribute UWP apps if they wanted to support
it.

And Win32 is going nowhere in the next decade, the entire world runs on it,
and it's the reason Microsoft is in business.

Tim Sweeney's comments on Windows 10 should almost be entirely dismissed as
FUD. We have more pressing issues (telemetry) to worry about.

------
nogbit
Sure the Hardware is amazing but the OS feels way too much like that slimy car
salesman...."trust me, it's the best deal out there".

------
Grue3
>Besides, the company just isn’t scary any more. Or tone-setting. Or, in many
areas of past glory, even relevant.

Ironic, considering the author of this article.

------
triplebit
I'd be happier if I could update my laptop and wife's laptop to be encrypted.
It's 2016, that should be in every OS be default.

~~~
WorldMaker
Have you looked into BitLocker?

~~~
triplebit
Right, that's the issue though. It's only available on Pro or higher.

~~~
WorldMaker
You are right. That's probably something that would be useful to home users as
well. That said, the in-place upgrade to Pro is quite easy in Windows since
Vista. In Windows 10 you simply buy it from the Store.

------
boneheadmed
Why limit yourself? I have a laptop running Windows. My other laptop
simultaneously runs Mac OS and from there I VNC into my linux server.

Know everything.

------
NotSammyHagar
Microsoft needs to seek absolution for forcing people to windows 10. it may be
an unforgivable sin

------
drdeadringer
While I don't believe in Heaven, I do believe that Bill Gates can buy his way
there.

------
Nux
It's the same wolf, just got smarter and fancier clothing, old man ...

------
iamwil
No way. I have a long memory. I'all resist as long as I can.

------
sickbeard
Too soon?

~~~
reustle
How so? They've been releasing a lot of projects as open source over the past
few years, and they've been building some pretty cool hardware (Surface, etc).
The new CEO does seem like he is pulling things in a better direction than
before.

~~~
noir_lord
vscode has rapidly replaced all other editors I use (still use intellij for
everything programming though), its already good and it has the potential to
be great, I'm excited about the .net stuff coming to Linux as I loved C# but
have been on Linux as developer for well over a decade and the Surface Book is
in strong contention for my next laptop.

Given my opinion of them a decade ago they've gone a long way to fix it. I
loved my 360, was the first time I realised Microsoft could do largely zero
hassle devices if they wanted.

~~~
mikestew
_I loved my 360, was the first time I realised Microsoft could do largely zero
hassle devices if they wanted._

Yeah, and then the "new Microsoft" gave us the Xbone (my complaints for which
can be found elsewhere on HN), so I don't know that a ten year old console is
the best basis for judgement.

------
phr4ts
>...hoping, jumping, dancing buffoon

Wasn't this too much?

------
mxuribe
Agreed.

------
eledra
#ForgiveMicrosoft

------
eledra
#ForgiveMicrosft

