
Ask News.YC:  Were logical people born logical? - palish
Short and sweet.  Your thoughts, please.
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ivanstojic
In short: no.

I have seen tens of examples where people of incredible logical/analytical
heritage sink to the bottom of the barrel, as well as those that rise to the
top from no discernible "good" set of genes.

There is more, I believe, than being born in making a person understand and
function on a logical level. It requires a whole set of correct external
stimuli, as well as a certain drive.

For me, I can clearly define two key points in my life: one that got me
started in the right logical way, and one that directed me into computers
specifically. As for the drive, it's also very much a function of environment,
because I have seen my own motivation and desire tide and ebb depending on
various external inputs.

In conclusion, I would say that there is potential in a majority of us to
achieve amazing things, yet this potential requires specific grooming to
blossom.

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mccon104
Yes.

Or at least they have the propensity to become more so than others.

My evidence is very very subjective... based on watching children (ages 2-5)
you see some have a natural inclination towards order and logic. They love
legos, lining up their action figures/matchbox cars, coloring in the lines and
when they color they only use colors that make sense (i.e. they won't color a
tree blue).

While other kids love drawing/painting, giving their parents plays/shows, and
creating stories that don't make any sense. They enjoy the chaos of turning
little red riding hood into a who-done-it with Optimus Prime and Mario helping
find gold on mars.

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DanielBMarkham
I disagree with the premise: people are not logical.

There are a lot of people with great analytical skills, but even those people
consistently act illogically. It comes with the wetware.

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palish
Certainly. Rumor has it that Einstein had at least one or two mistresses that
he would visit from time to time. Those visits probably did nothing to improve
his personal life, or benefit him in any way except emotionally (and even
then, only in the short term; his jaunts probably had long-term emotional
consequences). Therefore, those actions were probably illogical.

However, setting that aside for one moment... Imagine someone who most people
would classify as "developmentally disabled". (I don't like over-general
labels, but it is a relatively specific one in this case.) Now, the million-
dollar question is: would it ever be possible for that person to solve a
problem of the magnitude Einstein has solved?

It _seems_ like the answer is no.

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daveambrose
Interesting question.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Education.

~~~
shawndrost
I noticed myself learning logical rigor as I learned to program. My hatred of
bugs classically conditioned me to think through things in a way I wasn't
accustomed to.

However, as with most yes/no questions, the correct answer is is "sorta".

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palish
Please, expand on that.

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shawndrost
Once, after a few months of learning to program, my bike started falling out
of gear going up hills. I knew nothing about bikes and so I looked at it for a
while and then got frustrated. Then I looked at the pedals and thought, what
happens when I push these? And if this chain is here, how does the wheel move?
And what else can affect the wheel? And how does this change if the chain is
on this gear wheel? Then I realized, hey, I'm debugging my bike.

I was just helping someone learn to program yesterday, and I noticed her doing
something that I remember doing as well. She was writing code that she didn't
understand, without even understanding that she didn't understand it. Then,
when it blew up, she was irritated in two ways: once because she had no idea
it was coming, and again because she had no idea how to fix it. I rarely write
code I don't understand now, but when I do, I'm damn well certain that I don't
understand it, and it makes me nervous as hell. One day she's going to be me,
because she hates what she sees every time she javac's now.

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dkobryn
Consider the following analogy. We all have bodies, but few become athletes.
We all have minds, but few become thinkers. I think this is a matter of choice
influenced by ones predisposition and experiences. Inevitably we choose to
specialize in something and that specialization strengthens us in some ways at
the cost of weakening us in other ways. -cheers

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nazgulnarsil
anyone can become rational. it takes only the willingness to throw out any
notion that is proven false, no matter how much you held that notion dear.
with this one parameter you will arrive at successively more accurate
approximations of reality.

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philonous
People were born stupid. Education (and in small part experience) is necessary
to the development of the rational faculties.

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giardini
Of course not!

They were all babbling fools as infants.

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mstefff
Perhaps born with the genes but developed over time with education, etc.

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SwellJoe
Yes.

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palish
That was my conclusion as well. And unfortunately, it is a somewhat depressing
conclusion. It means that not everyone is able to rise to the level of Mozart
or Newton or Michelangelo (or Carmack, to use a more modern example). Certain
problems are simply _beyond_ the capabilities of certain people.

I honestly don't care whether this topic rises to the front page... I'd just
like to talk about this with others. Do you have some time to chat here?

~~~
TobiasCassell
Malcom Gladwell has a new book coming out in a couple of weeks called
"Outliers".. He delves into all of this, I'm half way through it and I cant
put it down. He has so much proof! Proof of all of the contributing factors
that go into the exceptional accomplishments of certain extraordinary people.
People like Bill Gates and Bill Joy. It's a little mean of me to mention the
book as I think it gets released on the 18th, until I saw your post I resisted
mentioning it.

The only answer I have for you is probably not what you are looking for- there
is a Buddhist expression called "mu". It means you have to un-ask the question
before we can proceed, your question is like saying "are you still beating
your wife?" Of course, either way one answers is incorrect- if you say "no" it
could mean you used to beat your wife, and if yes thats quite bad as well. The
correct answer can only be mu. So, in essence, there are too many factors
involved for a yes or no . Get the book and then email me if you would like,
I'd love to chat about it, its fantastic!

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Alex3917
Now I'm really jealous. I've been waiting for that book to come out for
months.

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TobiasCassell
I didn't see this here, I'll send the book out to whomever emails me first.

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abless
What's a logical person?

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sarvesh
Human beings don't always act rationally or irrationally due to emotions. So
calling some as logical is illogical, assuming that you meant someone is
completely logical when you say 'born logical'.

Where and how you grow up plays a big role in how logical you are.

