
Ask HN: Am I at a disadvantage for not attending Stanford, MIT, etc? - Brewer
I didn't attend MIT, Stanford, or any other school of note. I'm a computer science major at Memorial University of Newfoundland in Newfoundland, Canada and I'm wondering how much of a disadvantage I'll be at throughout my career as a software developer for going to such a lesser known university.<p>You can say that after a few years of working the university you attended doesn't matter much, but there will also be a sort of “club” for those who went to a higher caliber university. I screwed up big time in high school and I feel that I'm being somewhat punished now because I don't have the option to attend MIT (I wanted to go through their EECS program).<p>Do you think I am at a disadvantage? I don't mean just because I won't have a degree that says Massachusetts Institute of Technology across the top, but because I'll have a lesser education. Not to disrespect to professors at my university, but the CS program is a bit of a joke.
======
patio11
Pick someone you admire.

Do you admire them for their degree?

Do you admire them for their first job out of college?

If the answers are "No" and "No", then you probably shouldn't be worried all
that much.

There are fields, times, and places in which one's academic pedigree opens or
closes doors which are hugely relevant to one's career success. You are in a
very fortunate field, time, and place in this regard.

P.S. Of all the people I admire in tech, the only one whose undergraduate
education I'm aware of has no degree at all, and I only know that because he's
sensitive about it and brought it up. Similarly, I'll bet you that probably
99.8% of the people who know me professionally, including everybody who has
ever written me a check, could not tell you where I went to school.

------
colinsidoti
I went to MIT for EECS and left on voluntary withdrawal after three semesters.
There were two highlights of my application to MIT: 1. I was the first person
to make online, real-time games for the iPhone (pre App Store with AJAX). 2. I
held a full time developer job for two summers in a row, and part time two
days per week during the school year between.

Once I got to MIT, I learned that my grades and SAT scores were below most of
my peers. I had no "hook", and those two points above are really the only
unique things I could attribute my success to.

The kicker is, I did those two things without MIT, and you could do cool
things without MIT too. Nothing I did was particularly hard, they just took a
lot of work.

You say you "don't have the option to attend MIT", but you're wrong. You don't
have the option to start MIT with kids the same age as you. I'm willing to bet
that if you went out and built some cool things, MIT would be happy to offer
you admission. But don't build things because you want to get into MIT, build
things because you want to build them, I promise they can tell the difference.

But this brings up an even bigger question. If you're able to build things
that are so cool that they could get you into MIT, would you really still want
to go to MIT to get an education? Or would you rather continue building cool
things?

To answer your question more directly: No, your not at a disadvantage. You're
in a different place, but you can still go wherever you want.

~~~
alecbenzer
I got the opposite end of that stick. Me and a friend both tried for MIT. I
had (relatively significantly) higher grades and test scores but he got in and
I didn't because he had built a cool website and I hadn't really built
anything I could show off (also my SATs could have been better - if they were
I suppose I might have gotten in via merit of numbers; the rest of my
application wasn't _completely_ barren). I wonder if he'll find MIT like you
did.

OP: The question has been on my mind as well (this is kind of a fresh wound).
I keep telling myself that great people make themselves, they aren't made by
schools. I'd tell you that, too, except I haven't even started college yet, so
it's kind of early to go around telling other people that - might just be
wishful thinking (though I'd imagine not completely).

------
Shenglong
It doesn't really make a difference either way; it's not like you can change
where you went for school. With that being said, I'm assuming you're defining
"advantage" to mean being hired. If that's the case, you always have two steps
to overcome:

1\. Getting known

2\. Proving yourself

The only part this may hurt you, is #1 - but that's _easily_ overcome by
attending conferences, and generally networking. If you missed CUTC
(<http://www.cutc.ca>) this year, make sure to keep up to date with it and go
next year. We had quite a few companies from software to consulting attend,
with the primary motivation of recruiting. Typically the best students across
Canada come (although Atlantic Canada is under represented), and companies
have found it to be a very effective recruiting ground - since they actually
get to meet students for minimal cost.

If you're graduating, you probably can't attend, but if you're looking for a
full-time job and you're a good programmer, send me an email and I'll connect
you to where I'm currently working (it'll be up to you to impress them).

~~~
Brewer
I'll be starting my second year in September, so I'll have plenty of time to
attend this conference. Thanks for the link, I'll make a note of the date for
next year and bookmark the site.

EDIT: Do you have any tips on networking? I have no problem talking to people,
but starting the conversation is not my strong point.

~~~
brg
If you are just starting your second year, and you know you want to accomplish
a lot in this field; attempt to transfer to a larger school with more
opportunity, say Waterloo, by the end of the year.

------
bethling
I went to MIT, I can say that the only "real" advantage that I got from going
there that I couldn't have gotten an a different school is that my Resume says
I went to MIT - and that tends to get people to take a closer look at it
if/when they might otherwise not.

I've found that for really good/talented people where they go doesn't matter
as much as what they do and how deeply they explore the subjects. For me, the
huge advantage to having been at MIT, is that all that hacking/discussion with
peers was almost impossible to avoid. You almost can't help but work on cool,
mind opening projects, and interact with people much smarter than you are.

But really - that opportunity is available no matter where you go to school.
You might just have to work a little harder to find them. For the most part
the best developers/hackers I've worked with didn't go to one of the "top top"
schools - they worked super hard where ever they were and worked and learned
outside of their normal curriculum, and in some cases that might even be
better for them.

Career wise, I don't thing that having a degree from MIT has gotten me
anything that I couldn't have gotten by having someone at a company say "you
got to talk to her, she's really good." Just get to be good, do some cool
things and you'll get noticed. If you worry that you're not getting exposed to
the topics that you would at a place like MIT, you can always take a look at
the books (or use OpenCourseWare) that they use to teach yourself a lot of the
same things.

------
kls
No it will not, the thing about those schools is not the degree it is the
people. The value of those schools are that a lot of bright people are in
them, generally with a lot of free time. There is an opportunity while at
school to really work on something revolutionary and potentially launch it. It
has nothing to do with the degree and everything to do with the environment.
That is what universities used to be about. So the only thing you missed out
on was an opportunity to possibly be at the spark of an opportunity so what
life goes on.

I have a degree from the University of Phoenix, I have been a CTO at 3
companies and an executive at Marriott. One of the companies we sold to
Hotels.com and the other we sold to the largest travel conglomerate in the
world. I got the degree because when one of the companies I was a CTO at was
acquired, the executives in the new company where required to have a degree.
Some companies actually put artificial ceilings on promotions where one must
have a degree. They don't care who it is from it just has to be a degree, kind
of stupid but some times you just have to play ball. Anyways a degree is the
last thing on the list that gets you a job, if it is the first thing then you
should probably reconsider your employer because they care more about looking
good than building quality software.

I got to where I am fixing problems, generating millions of dollars and saving
people money, do that and doors open themselves. The only thing a degree did
for me was make me a good public speaker. UOP makes you give a speech at the
end of ever class. Toastmasters would have saved me a lot of money.

------
TrevorBurnham
Short answer: The disadvantage is temporary.

I went to Carleton College in Minnesota. It does well in liberal arts college
rankings, but it's not well-known. In fact, my Y Combinator interview began
with pg asking me, "You're Canadian?" (He was thinking of Carleton
University.)

Going to a school with name rec is certainly a plus. And if you're in the
startup world, that goes double for MIT and Stanford—not only do they have
outstanding CS and engineering programs, but they also have an extraordinarily
entrepreneurial culture. If you tell a venture capitalist that you went to
MIT, for instance, that's a strong indicator that you "get it" as an
entrepreneur. It's neither necessary nor sufficient to get them to write a
check, but it pretty much answers two of the questions every potential
investor has: "Is this guy smart?" and "Does this guy understand how startups
work?" If you went to a no-name school, you've got to find another way to
answer those questions.

Just remember: Once you've actually _done something_ , that defines you far
more than what school you went to. I didn't lose my shot at Y Combinator
because pg hadn't heard of my school; I lost it because my team hadn't built
anything before. If we'd been Stanford grad students rather than University of
Michigan grad students, maybe that would've helped. But you know what would've
helped more? Having ever deployed an app worth using, or developed a popular
open-source project, or written a book on a programming language (say,
CoffeeScript).

In short: "Make something people want." Aspire to do something noteworthy
enough that you can introduce yourself as "Hi, I'm the creator of so-and-so."
At that point, no one will care which school you went to.

~~~
Brewer
I definitely get the point of MIT and Stanford having amazing entrepreneurial
cultures, which is something that we don't have here in Newfoundland.

I'd love to be able to tell people about something that I've made -- but I
haven't made anything. I have no idea what to make and no clue where to start.

~~~
vessenes
This is easily fixed.

Option a is a bad, but easy one -- go check out
<http://blog.stevepoland.com/100-web-start-up-business-ideas/> and do one. My
opinion is that most of those ideas pretty much suck, though.

Option b: pick a non-technology related hobby (for instance, I like sailing).
Go find some forums related to the hobby, and say "I'm a university student
and a software developer, and I want to make some software. What do you guys
need? What would make your life better? What bugs you about any hobby related
software you buy?"

Read 40-200 pages of responses. Pick one that seems dead-simple to implement.
Do it.

------
hsmyers
I'm not sure about Stanford, but much of the information that MIT would impart
is available on-line for free. Cherry-pick the course offerings and fold them
into what ever program you are currently attending. Ultimately none of the
'paper' will keep your job even though in those shallow circumstances it may
get you a job. What you know and what you learn combined with what you make
will be the key in your continuation as a developer. Think of it this way, it
is almost a cliche that there are two ways into a job---one through the front
door through HR and one through the backdoor through the people who you will
actual work with. The second group seldom gives a damn about 'paper'---you
take it from there :) @TrevorBurnham---I remember Carleton fondly although it
was damn cold in the winter. Likewise certain people took a really dim view to
physical contact in the common area when I came for a visit :)

------
brg
The answer is yes, until you are accomplished as either a founder or a maker.

If you are going to work for yourself, you will be hampered by having no
history and not having developed a well connected support network. You will
not be given the benefit of the doubt, and it will be hard to get doors to
open for you. That will change if you provide a product that investors can
understand.

If you are planning on working for a larger company based outside of your
region, you will have a hard time getting passed HR prescreens and manager
resume shuffles.

If you are graduating, your best bet is either to head to Toronto or Silicon
Valley and start your own company, or go to graduate school in hopes of taking
an internship at Google, Microsoft, or IBM. After you have a single large
company on your resume, you'll be fine.

------
allenc
Speaking as a UC Berkeley grad w/ many coworkers who weren't from UCB/Stanford
(which is common in SV companies), having the school on your resume makes it
easier to get noticed from recruiters, but it's just one of many factors
considered to "get in the door".

I've seen more companies look for other publicly visible areas of code output:
\- Github/Stack Overflow/Quora \- Blogs/social sites like HN, reddit at times
\- Open source projects

Internships or experience at well-regarded companies also helps a lot, and
once you get through one of these avenues it's easier to keep the ball rolling
and get introductions to the hot companies in our industry.

Of course, you still have to pass the interview, regardless of which
university you studied in. =)

------
jinushaun
In my experience in the tech industry, experience counts much more than a
degree. When I'm hiring, I ignore the education section. The industry is full
of self-taught programmers who were programming since middle school. Most
computer science freshmen came in already knowing how to code well and getting
a degree is just a formality--a check box. In that case, why should their
education even factor in the job market?

And if you don't have work experience to speak of, make something! A website,
an iPhone app, code hosted on GitHub, etc, speaks volumes. In all honesty, I'm
more likely to hire based on that than your resume.

~~~
Brewer
I haven't made anything yet. How would the source from my course
assignments/projects look on GitHub?

~~~
dsmithn
If you want to go that route, I would recommend picking an assignment you are
very interested in, and going all out on it. Even if you get A's on your
assignments, they're still probably not that impressive until you can put a
few months of extra work into them. Also, if you discuss it with your
professor, you have the added potential of building a good relationship with
him/her.

Looking back, I really wish I had done something like this because I was in
the same boat as you - a lot of motivation to build something, but not knowing
what to build.

~~~
Brewer
Well I meant in addition to any non-school related projects I do. :P The tasks
we are asked to perform here are a joke. I recall a problem set last year that
went something like this: "You have a Door object that has a state which can
be 'open' or 'closed'. Write a mutator method to change the state of the
door." What the hell? That was about 2/3 of the way through the course too. I
know its a first year course but come one ...

------
simonsarris
People aren't going to wonder whether or not the CS program at your university
is a joke if they haven't heard of the place. They just won't think about it.

They'll move on to wondering what you have done during your school years and
beyond.

What do you have to show for your education? Just the piece of paper? Did you
make anything while in school? Help any professors? Write any articles? Start
any clubs? Contribute to open source projects?

Tangible evidence of being good is always better than intangible evidence. A
degree is neat, but real-things-done is far better.

~~~
Brewer
I've been working with a CS professor for about a month and a half now as part
of a work-study program. Do I get street cred for this?

~~~
eric-hu
I would say it depends on what you get done. That seems to be the theme of
these responses.

Hope that motivates you to take advantage of your situation, since you're
already in a working relationship with a talented person.

------
vessenes
I graduated from Brown University in 1997, and I majored in Math, not Computer
Science.

Every so often a "Is an Ivy worth it / what's my degree situation going to
matter?" conversation comes up online, here's my take on your question.

In short, in my experience, it matters, in the following ways:

a) Social Networks. The social networks you build at an Ivy / MIT / Stanford /
U of C will be more nationally useful. In any given city outside their zone,
they will not matter as much as the local "good" University, though. For
example, right now, I live in Seattle -- going to the University of Washington
would have opened many more doors than my Brown degree does here. Harvard,
Yale, Princeton, and to some extent Stanford transcend this dynamic, and are
usually more valuable than even a pretty good local school; this is because
the alums in town will tend to be significantly more influential.

b) Peers. IF (and this is a big IF for many who wonder about going to a given
'great' university that's not accepted them), you would have been an
intellectual peer with people at your dream institution, you will have a
correspondingly tougher time finding peers at the not-top-tier University. I
have heard, many times, statements from second and third tier University
attendees that their experience contradicts this; people are challenged,
smart, etc. etc. at their local University. Out of curiosity for a while, I
would interview transfers from other schools to Brown / MIT / Harvard, and
100% of the time they indicated that the other school was significantly less
challenging, and offered far fewer peers.

Now, a counterpoint -- for a while, I was a member of the Young Entrepreneur's
Network. Simplified member qualification: You had to own a majority of a
business with more than $1mm in revenue to join. I met roughly one hundred
fellow CEOs in this group for the couple of years I was in it; only one had an
Ivy league education. I met no 'name' MBAs in this group.

The next step up, Young President's Organization has, I'm told, a few more
MBAs, but I didn't qualify, so I can't confirm this.

To kick ass at business, you DON'T NEED TO GO TO A GREAT SCHOOL, in fact, in
general, awesome success at real-world business ownership is contraindicated
by an Ivy / top-tier education.

Of course, here on HN, we know that success fundraising an angel round in
Silicon Valley is highly correlated with having a great technical degree, but
it's even more highly correlated with executing in an awesome way.

If you want to do a great job starting businesses, learn to execute, and go
crazy, don't worry about the rest.

On the other hand, if you want the network, intellectual challenge, and peer
group and are sure you'll be unhappy anywhere else, there's a simple solution:

a) Get all A's at your current university

b) Start applying to your chosen university; reach out to professors doing
interesting research, and work the admissions group. "I'm having trouble
finding researchers at my University who can give me enough interesting work
in X area, Professor so-and-so and I have corresponded, and I'd like to
transfer." This speaks so much more than high school grades/SATs... Believe
me. A recommendation from a professor that you're 'topping out' with would
also work nicely. They'll want to help, in the best case.

The slightly less rock-star version is: crush your undergraduate, crush your
test scores, do good senior year research, find some good grad programs, crush
your GREs, and go to the grad school you want to go to. That's where you're
going to spend a long time if you're serious about academia anyway.

On the other hand, if you can't get those kind of results at University of
Newfoundland right now, I think you should relax -- you would not do well at
MIT. I promise you. Put it out of your head, and go kick ass at business; it's
significantly easier than excelling in academia at MIT.

~~~
Brewer
This is an interesting answer because I wasn't expecting anyone to tell me
that business is easier than MIT. Then again, you owned the majority of a
business that had more than $1m in revenue. I have trouble finding money to
spend on lunch.

I'm a CS major now and I'm strongly considering switching to an Applied
Math/Computer Science double major. Are you a developer? If so, what about
your math degree helped you most? Did you focus on pure or applied math?

~~~
vessenes
Well, in college, I lived on one meal a day for some time. Meeting Street Café
sandwiches at 3pm for the win.. : )

I was a pure math major. Getting a math degree from any major university
(applied or pure) guarantees that almost nobody will wonder if you're
intelligent.

Past that, applied math -> finance seems to have been the most lucrative path
for people in the '90s. I'm not sure what the current situation is.

------
pawelwentpawel
I was wondering how the good universities from across the Europe (particulary
from UK) are being perceived in US. Places like Edinburgh University for
example, even though they are very good, are way lower in ranks than the
american schools.

The same funny thing happens with the technology intitutes from eastern
europe. Some technical degrees are horribly demanding and produce some great
engineers, but still are very low in the world-wide ranks.

~~~
auganov
Same rules apply to any university that is not a name brand.

It doesn't matter if it's Edinburgh University, University of Moscow or
anything else if you have a degree from a school like that almost nobody cares
about your degree.

Every university in the world produces some amazing people from time to time,
but their awesomeness is always backed by something else than their degree.
What those east European universities are good at is producing TopCoder
winners and that's the 'credential' that gets those people jobs at Google.

------
alain94040
Yes, there is a "club", and no, you are not part of it.

This will hurt you for a few years. But, it's really only about what you are
about to achieve: become a great developer, build amazing things, and nothing
else will matter. Can you be the best? Ignore the degree and try.

Degrees, in the end, are just like floaties: they guarantee you won't drown,
but they don't win Olympics.

~~~
mikeharmon
love the quote "Degrees, in the end, are just like floaties: they guarantee
you won't drown, but they don't win Olympics"

------
spinlock
FYI - the most incompetent engineer I've ever worked with went to MIT. Plus,
college is about a lot more than learning technical skills. One of the very
true things about life is that they guys who make A's in college make good
professors. But, the guys who make B's make a lot of money ... for the guys
who make C's.

------
mcarrano
You are only at a disadvantage if you don't make the most of your time.

I am still in school and while all the interviews I have had for internships
tested my school knowledge the big question they always asked was... "What
have you done?".

They want to make sure you are capable of getting things done and that is
really what matters.

------
zemanel
i'm was born on a humble family, away for a major city and don't even have a
degree in CS. Started on development on a time where i [hardly] had access to
the internet on a 56k modem and only got my own pc at like 20y old (i'm 30)
and [decent/broadband] internet access at like 25.

If your goal is a major job and your attended school isn't cutting it, there
are better ways that an MIT degree and awesome/very rewarding jobs on that
path. Open source development for example. Companies like Google and others,
pick up talents that contribute to open source projects. That also allows you
to build real world experience and exponentially improve your skills, because
a major pitfall is believing that a degree in CS is an end, instead of just
another step on the way.

------
hobonumber1
It may be easier for an MIT or Stanford graduate to get into the field just
through the university's reputation and contacts that they have, but after 2-3
years in the industry, I really think your work will show your credentials
better than your alma mater.

~~~
brg
As a hiring manager, a top tier school will matter for a long while. It
matters not only in salary (20%+) for a top tier school, but also in the
opportunities people will trust you with.

~~~
alecbenzer
What's your reasoning for this? (or are you just saying that that is the way
it is, even if it's not proper?)

~~~
brg
Sorry I wasn't clear. That's the way it is, and when I was a hiring manager
was when the disparity was made clear to me.

------
pokoleo
If it appears that you need/want a better education/etc, come to UW.

We've got a killer CS/Math program (one of the best in Canada?), and there are
pink ties autographed by Bill Gates in the Math department.

~~~
Brewer
I have considered Waterloo, but it's far too expensive for me to attend,
unfortunately.

------
grayrest
Doesn't really make a difference past your first job. GPA is the same unless
you're trying for a government job. The most common thing I'm asked these days
is what's on my github account.

~~~
Brewer
I got the idea recently to create a repo for all of the course work that I
have done and will do. Do you think that this will work to my advantage?

~~~
eric-hu
I've read that some schools are asking their students to do this. IMO, do it.

It costs nothing if you open source your code. If you never link to your
account anywhere, it's almost a private account. That is, unless you've made
something like the next Google in one of your classes...in which case you
should probably just start a business with it ;)

I've been out of college for 5 years now and there are projects I wish I still
had around. Some of them were pretty elaborate and complex and it'd be nice to
point back to them. Too bad I lost the code in various hard drive crashes.
I've taken a few sidestreets away from CS so getting back into it now means I
have to learn and do a lot to show for myself.

------
paradox95
Yes you are. But you can beat it. I didn't go to a good school. In fact I went
to an awful school. But I am an engineer at good start up in the Valley and
doing very well.

Are you in the Bay?

~~~
Brewer
No, I'm in Newfoundland, Canada -- about as far away from the Valley as you
can get while staying in North America.

Do you have any tips for fellow attendees of awful schools?

~~~
paradox95
Open source, side projects, whatever you have to do to become an awesome
programmer. As someone else mentioned, your degree, no matter good or bad is
never enough.

And when you start looking for a job, don't get beat down when you don't get
the first, second, third or Nth job you interview for. There are a lot of
people who won't hire you because of your school. Don't let it get to you.
You'll find something.

------
brudgers
Yes, relatively speaking you are at a disadvantage. Absolutely, you are highly
advantaged because you live in a prosperous country and attend an accredited
university.

------
nostrademons
Yes. But it's a disadvantage you can overcome.

~~~
sidcool
How?

~~~
simonsarris
Make things. Seriously.

Every recruiter that has ever contacted me was because of something I made or
wrote, and not because of my degree.

Degrees are sometimes good for getting an interview. Showing off things you've
made are good for getting a job.

~~~
Brewer
This is what I've heard. In fact, I actually have another Ask HN thread up
write now on this same topic. It should be slightly higher up on the 'new'
page if you want to check it out. The title is 'Ask HN: Showing personal
projects to potential employers'.

------
damoncali
Yes. But so are 99.9% of the rest of us. Get on with it.

By the way, it's not the education that's better.

------
socialist_coder
College dropout here and I'm doing just fine. School matters naught if you're
smart.

