
Slavoj Žižek on GReferendum: The Greeks are correct - aspirin
http://analyzegreece.gr/topics/greece-europe/item/270-slavoj-zizek-on-greece-the-greeks-are-correct/
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tankenmate
The biggest point that is rarely raised in this whole debate is that Germany
has benefited for the last decade from the low Euro; which has been courtesy
of the Greeks. In the last decade the Germans have had their main stock index
gain some €40T (much more if you take from 2003). The increased tax income to
the German state over this period would handily pay off Greece's debts. So
Germany has benefited from Greece over all these years and now they refuse to
pay for that benefit.

This is a case of ideological holier than thou treatment, a bureaucratic
banality of evil. Meanwhile people sleep on the streets in Greece, from
children to pensioners.

Both the past Greek governments shouldn't have borrowed the money, and the
past European governments shouldn't have lent them the money; now both sides
will suffer. And I'm starting to get the feeling that only one side will learn
from this (and it isn't the EU bureaucrats, calling them technocrats is too
generous; they follow the rules and ideologies even when they are wrong).

~~~
xyby

        Meanwhile people sleep on the streets in Greece,
        from children to pensioners.
    

GDP in Greece is $18k per capita. Why do they sleep on the street? Where do
people in Slovakia sleep? They have only $16k per capita.

I have friends in Macedonia. They have a GDP of $5k per capita. And I witness
nobody sleeping on the streets, when I visit them.

Isn't Greece a relatively wealthy country, compared to several others in
Europe?

~~~
danbruc
Wikipedia gives $16,138 vs $18,863 and $29,209 vs $26,773 PPP estimated for
2015, so Slovakia is actually a bit better off.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Wikipedia gives $16,138 vs $18,863 and $29,209 vs $26,773 PPP estimated for
> 2015, so Slovakia is actually a bit better off.

...on average, _and_ Slovakia also has (as far as the most recent numbers I
can find) a lower Gini coefficient, so should have smaller numbers far above
and far below that average.

------
huac
A very readable and insightful piece by one of the great (in some meanings of
the word) philosophers today.

A somewhat parallel piece by Zizek a year ago:
[http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/slavoj-i-ek-
onl...](http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/slavoj-i-ek-only-
radicalised-left-can-save-europe)

~~~
cronjobber
Rather puffed up fluff piece. TL;DR: "a clientelist corrupted state if there
ever was one."

~~~
msandford
So who is at fault for loaning money to what everyone knows is "a clientelist
corrupted state if there ever was one"?

Surely not the borrower? I mean, historically, for basically all time, it was
the job of banks to say "no" to borrowers who were not good credit risks. That
was their job, first and foremost, not to lose the principal.

In the last decade or two for some reason they decided that preserving their
principal wasn't the primary goal, "returns" were.

I don't think it's surprising that people who historically have not been given
enough rope to hang themselves suddenly get more rope and are expected to know
that the world has changed. They don't.

------
atemerev
I am an ultra-free-market Objectivist. Still, I think that the Greeks voted
correctly.

The problem is: even in a democratic country, you are not accountable to where
and how much your government's borrowing. Governments do not produce money;
they take it from taxes. Which means: _they_ are borrowing money, and _you_
have to repay it.

While being responsible for debts is a good thing, it only concerns your own
debts, not something that was made on your behalf. It's the businesses who
will suffer the most (as they are taxable), and they are innocent.

~~~
pan69
>> Governments do not produce money; they take it from taxes.

Exactly. Where does Greece thinks the bail out money they received came from?
That's right, the tax payers in the other EU countries.

Greece saying NO is not Greece giving the finger to Europe, it's Greece giving
the finger to the people of Europe.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Greece saying NO is not Greece giving the finger to Europe, it's Greece
> giving the finger to the people of Europe.

Its not giving the finger to anyone. The Greek government was offered terms,
which it could accept or reject (neither of which constitutes "giving the
finger" to anyone, choosing to accept or reject an offer is just a routine
part of negotiating.) The government gave this choice to the voters with a
recommendation, rather than acting unilaterally on it. The voters made a
choice to reject the terms, which was the recommendation given by the
government.

------
chestnut-tree
_"...only a new “heresy” (represented at this moment by Syriza) can save what
is worth saving in European legacy: democracy, trust in people, egalitarian
solidarity."_

I'm glad the Greeks voted No. The zeal with which austerity politics has been
unflinchly pursued has caused enormous hardship for people in Greece and
across Europe. But do people in Europe really feel a sense of solidarity with
each other?

I'm from the UK, a country often lambasted for it's aloof and isolationist
attitude to Europe. I used to be embarrased by the scepticism shown by British
MPs towards closer EU integration. Now, however, I'm just a bit indifferent.
The reason? I've seen clearly that self-interest among European countries
(almost) always trumps a greater collective good. Yet the press and
politicians continue to pretend otherwise. I don't blame individual countries
for doing this, but I wish they would drop the pretence that they are pursuing
a greater collective goal for Europe when in fact they are often pursuing a
best-for-my-country approach. And who can blame them when it will always be to
their own electorates that they must first appeal?

The migrant crisis in the Mediterranean really amplified this for me. I was
ashamed of the UK response, but no other country was willing to share fairly
the number of migrants rescued either. And even the rhetoric around Greece is
rarely about solidarity and common European humanism, but instead about
keeping the integrity of the financial system in place.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33132595](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33132595)

~~~
igravious
But do people in Europe really feel a sense of solidarity with each other?

Yes, yes they do.

I'm also glad the Greeks voted No. About time this charade that is the €zone
was fixed properly. And I say that as an ardent proponent of the €. The sooner
a politico-fiscal framework is set up the better. Of course people _hate_ the
idea because it means that sovereign states become even more closely knit. And
they also hate the idea that a mechanism will be put in place whereby regions
that benefit more from the integration help regions that don't benefit as
much. By all means, the Greeks should get their house in order, but the
stereotypes that are being bandied about the place are embarrassing.

Smart move by you guys (UK) to stay with the £ while the € experiment got
under way. If people put aside their differences and fix it though the € has a
chance at becoming by far and away the world's second reserve currency. We're
closer than we imagine to that state of affairs I believe.

Regarding the immigrant crisis in the Med. Surely a tragedy that every EU
citizen should be ashamed of. How many have died already? I don't even know.
UK has responded now though (and bravo for that), as has Ireland, Germany, and
others?

------
norea-armozel
Ultimately, the market has to bare the loss of the Greek government. It's
really no different than when a corporation fails to pay its debts. Mind you,
it does cause a massive decline in the country's economy. I think the IMF has
the right idea, give Greece a means to grow its economy and put a hold on all
debt payments. To do otherwise, I think is to court failure of the entire
Eurozone.

~~~
x0x0
except the "market" already got a bailout laundered through the greek
government so merkel, sarkozy, strauss-kahn, et al, could pretend they hadn't
given their banks giant checks

~~~
norea-armozel
The ECB bought the debt from the private banks, right? So, I think the burden
is still to be carried by someone. So, I don't think the ECB should've never
bought back the Greek debt at all. The banks need to learn that there's no
such thing as a free lunch when it comes to loans. But it seems all
governments are hell bent on making the lives of banks far too easy (where the
rest of us if we should fail are told to get bent).

~~~
x0x0
ain't that the lesson of the last 7 years?

private gains, socialized losses, and fuck the taxpayers

~~~
norea-armozel
No doubt. And at this point I'm beginning to lean towards the idea of
abolishing money altogether (and I'm the market anarchist here).

~~~
igravious
Don't throw the idea of money under the bus. Money in itself is not the root
of the problem. Money is a tool, an instrument -- let's keep that perspective
clear in our minds. We can innovate in the money space (crypto-currencies,
blockchains, and all that) if we want better solutions.

Somebody posted a G.K.Chesterton quote on this site a mere 6 hours ago that is
apropos:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9845506](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9845506)
[But donkeys, I fear, will never be abolished.]

Look to how money is misused abused and try to figure out how we can remedy
those situations. Much better :)

------
xyby
Pacta sunt servanda - contracts must be adhered to.

Greece has to pay back its debt. You can philosophize all you want. There is
no way around it.

~~~
igravious
Which is exactly the point Zizek was making. You (in the guise of a so-called
technocrat) say that your position is not ideological -- "contracts must be
adhered to" according to you -- "while the EU technocrats talk as if it is all
a matter of detailed regulatory measures" according to the article. Notice a
similarity?

So, no. Contracts do not have to be -- and indeed, frequently --
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#List_of_sove...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#List_of_sovereign_debt_defaults_or_debt_restructuring)
are not adhered to.

You wish poverty on millions? You wish social unrest? You wish the
perpetuation of an unjust financial state of affairs then.

I've said this until I'm blue in the face, the €zone as it exists cannot
function without fiscal transfers. That requires _political_ redress. Until
that happens sovereign states within the €zone are not playing on a level
playing field. Each state gave up a lever of power (sovereign currency) to
join the club and a similar virtual lever must be established in return
(fiscal transfers). Within the USA there are fiscal transfers. Between regions
in sovereign states (Germany, UK, Spain, etc.) there are. The €zone has got to
have them.

But nooo - "Pacta sunt servanda". That simple is it? Give me a break.

~~~
xyby

        You wish poverty on millions?
    

How much does Greece have to pay per year? I think it's something like $5bn?
AFAIK they have a GDP of $300bn and $100bn of that are converted into taxes.
Why would paying $5bn result in poverty of millions then? Isn't their spending
on military alone in the billions?

~~~
igravious
The unemployment rate is well over 20%.

If more austerity measures are imposed the rate of unemployment will go up
even more. This translates to increased poverty. Those repayments have to come
from somewhere else within the Greek economy. That somewhere else will have a
knock-on hardship.

If that is the case then Greece should default and leave the €zone. But that
is not a great outcome. As the next weakest economy will come under fire.
Also, others will be reluctant to join the €zone.

Restructuring and short- to mid-term solutions kick the can down the road.
Ultimately a fair system of fiscal transfers needs to be put in place. Loans
are _not_ fiscal transfers. Like it or not the €zone is in this together now.

------
gregoryganas
It's a bit amusing how suddenly everyone seems to be an expert in economics.

In any case, what all those people are missing is this: The Greeks signed the
contract. The contract hasn't changed since then. If they are "correct" now
they shouldn't been willing to sign the contract.

Sometimes, the truth hurts.

------
zwerdlds
My Great Depression Economics professor at university had the opinion that the
newly formed ECU was going to be temporary or at least limited in scope, due
to the lack of exchange float - similar to the gold standard. I also see a
lack of "political float" here. op/ It's too idealistic to expect separate
nation states to ignore their differences. /op

