
9/14/14: Sold 500 edu copies of Air Display 2. 4/25/16: All 500 refunded - zdw
https://twitter.com/DSHowell/status/726443725795168256
======
dantiberian
In isolation, each of Apple's poor actions towards developers can be explained
away. But in aggregate the collective paper cuts wear down a lot of the
goodwill that Apple has with developers. There's a lot of hope riding on this
WWDC turning stuff around, but I'm not too hopeful.

~~~
rocky1138
I tried to convince a non-developer (and Apple lover) about this a few months
ago but got nowhere. Developers are like bellwethers: if they hate you, even
if you're successful now, your product/service is doomed.

~~~
santaclaus
Salesforce -- successful business, hated by every programmer who has ever
touched it.

~~~
skj
My wife, who is a sales director, loves SalesForce. Maybe programmers aren't
their target market?

~~~
warfangle
Nope, but they are required if you want to do anything on it that's custom.
And Apex as a platform is a nightmare to work with.

------
jakobegger
It's long overdue that Apple allows installing software without their approval
on iOS devices. It's appalling that there is no alternative to the App Store.
The imbalance of power between developers and Apple is unacceptable.

It doesn't look like Apple will change without outside pressure; the time is
now ready for government regulation. I really hope that the EU takes on this
problem, and forces Apple to allow competing stores, just like they required
Microsoft to let users choose alternative browsers.

~~~
zamalek
I'm still genuinely confused as to why Apple hasn't been slammed with
antitrust on multiple fronts. You can ignore the whole App Store fiasco and
_still_ come up with several other anti-competitive and anti-consumer
practices: as a paying Winamp customer, I can't access the iPhone. This isn't
a silly little issue like a browser and they get away with it consistently.

~~~
extra88
Apple is not colluding with other companies to be anti-competitive so that
aspect of antitrust law doesn't apply. Apple doesn't have a monopoly in the
phone market so laws about abusing a monopolistic position doesn't apply.
Anti-competitive and anti-consumer practices are not inherently illegal
(they're arguably inherent to capitalism), they're only potentially illegal
when practiced by a business that's potentially a monopoly. It's like you're
complaining that Apple has a "monopoly" on deciding what's sold in their
store. Every store has that right.

> as a paying Winamp customer, I can't access the iPhone

I don't know what this means. Has a law been broken when a program written for
OS X on an x86 processor can't run on an Android phone with an ARM processor?

~~~
zamalek
> as a paying Winamp customer, I can't access the iPhone

Microsoft was accused of anti-competitive behaviour by EU for bundling IE with
Windows. Not only is iTunes bundled with iPhone, but alternatives _are locked
out_ (unlike IE - which was always the Chrome download app).

~~~
extra88
But Microsoft could only be anti-competitive because they had an effective
monopoly on the PC market. If you don't like iOS's policies, go buy an
Android.

There are other music-playing apps in the iTunes store so there are
alternatives to iOS's Music app but I'm not familiar with the parameters of
what Apple does and does not allow.

I don't like many of Apple's iTunes Store policies, I just don't see how they
could be called illegal.

~~~
zamalek
> go buy an Android.

Exactly as I did. That doesn't stop me from sympathising with iPhone users.
iTunes is a horrific piece of software, virtually every alternative is better.

------
buro9
The headline took so long to parse. Middle-endian dates remain very confusing
to everyone outside the USA.

~~~
specialist
I use YYYY/MM/DD every where I can. My pointless, resolute insurrection to
drag USA's calendaring into the 3rd millennium.

~~~
rocky1138
Stick with ISO 8601
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601)):
2016-05-01.

~~~
ScottBurson
Yes. It's unambiguous to everyone, and it sorts correctly without special
treatment.

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aftbit
How is this legal? Surely after more than a full fiscal year, nobody could
reasonably expect a refund? Although I suppose some consumer protection laws
require many-year warranties. Is that comparable?

~~~
snsr
It's also against the t&c included in the Apple developer agreement.

[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChWM2h8W4AEKiBT.jpg:large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChWM2h8W4AEKiBT.jpg:large)

------
carlesfe
This is crazy. I'm not in the App Store, how does this kind of refund even
work? Surely the money had already been transferred to the developer's bank
account.

Does Apple bill the developer for the value of the refund? Charge their credit
card? Do they withhold future sales for that value?

~~~
vacri
From the follow-up comments, it sounds like it was simply deducted from his
current month sales revenue.

Actually, I imagine this is just an oversight, and he's been caught in-between
some automated cracks. If he raises the issue with Apple and it isn't resolved
immediately, _then_ it's time to grumble.

~~~
jbmorgado
_" If he raises the issue with Apple and it isn't resolved immediately, then
it's time to grumble."_

Like the developer says in his own Tweets: for that, there would have to be an
open channel between developers and Apple. There isn't, developers don't get
to discuss with the Apple App Store representatives, it's a one way dialog in
which they receive some automated or if they are lucky, semi-automated
response from the App Store and that's it.

~~~
supercoder
Generally any reasonably sized developer has an Apple assigned dev relation
contact.

~~~
jbmorgado
Ok, but this developer states in his tweets that's not his case at least.

~~~
vitd
As a former Apple employee, surely he can find someone to help him make the
connection.

~~~
vsl
Are you beginning to see the problem here? A “normal” developer is screwed.
You need to be pretty large (“reasonably sized”) _and_ have good contacts at
Apple (which is nowhere near as easy as you think it is, and basically
impossible for most non-US developers) to even have a chance to have such
things fixed.

------
grapehut
Interestingly, the software is not very highly regarded:

[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/air-
display-2/id705578162?mt...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/air-
display-2/id705578162?mt=8)

[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.avatron.ai...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.avatron.airdisplay2&hl=en)

I wonder if apple decided to make a special case, and do a blanket refund?

~~~
raverbashing
Which is totally fair, if the refund is done on the allotted time (90 days)

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chrisbennet
"Well sharecropper, if you don't like working my land, go to somewhere else."

~~~
wtbob
Actually, it's worse: sharecroppers really good go plant cotton somewhere
else. But if you want to write iOS apps, you have the deal with Apple.

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thedz
Is there a refund time limit in the store ToS? A year and a half or so seems
excessively long for anything, let alone hardware.

~~~
mathrawka
90 Days

[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChWM2h8W4AEKiBT.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChWM2h8W4AEKiBT.jpg)

------
DiabloD3
This is absolutely appalling. Apple cannot possibly think they are in the
right here, especially due to their own ToS. It seems this dude lives in the
US, doesn't he have a legal case against Apple for theft?

------
pjc50
I'd suggest legal action, but unless a system like the UK small claims court
is available this would probably cost more than could be recovered.

~~~
klagermkii
Wouldn't taking Apple to small claims court be a very fast way to get you
booted out the App Store entirely? I don't think those 500 copies would ever
be worth that.

~~~
pjc50
Hmm, hadn't considered that; that drives home how unequal the system is and
that income from the Apple store is entirely at the whim of Apple.

------
hellofunk
I'd argue this is why you should distribute your app on the App Store, but
don't rely on Apple to handle the payments. Make your app free, with a payment
to your site directly, where you then provide an activation code or password,
etc, to run the free iOS app. One additional perk is that you don't give Apple
30% when you do this.

For the App Store to approve your app, you provide a test username/password or
authentication code in the notes to the reviewer. After the app is approved,
you can then deactivate that test account.

This requires more development overhead from the developer, certainly. But the
extra 30% you get in revenue and the comfort of being solely in control of
your payment process can be worth it.

There are a few apps that do this, but not many.

~~~
shalmanese
This is also prohibited by the app store TOS.

~~~
hellofunk
The terms of service prevent you from soliciting payment via an outside source
within your app. But I don't think there's anything against what I described,
so long as you don't link to your site for payment. Is this not the case?

------
kayoone
It's ridiculous to be a slave of Apples good will for years without knowing
when and how much revenue they might just take away from you again without
even giving a reason. What if you invested it elsewhere a long time ago and
your business is not doing that well anymore ?

~~~
gambiting
I don't really see how different it is from a normal retailer situation. If
you have a small store, sell someone a fridge, then 6 months later go under,
and the fridge breaks down and can't be repaired in 11 months, the customer is
still within the rights to ask you for a full refund(at least in the EU). It
doesn't matter if you are doing well or not - as a business, you should plan
for these situations.

The problem here is, that I don't think Apple says anywhere that they can
issue refunds for your products 18(!!!!) months after purchase! normal refund
time is 90 days.

~~~
kayoone
yeah the problem is not the existence of refunds, the problem is the timeframe
which is highly unreasonable for a $10 application. 3-6 months okay, but
almost 2 years ?

------
cm3
To be clear, he knows exactly that it's those 500 sold on 9/14/14, right?

------
LorenPechtel
A thought here--suppose the original 500 sales turned out to somehow be a
fraudulent transaction. In that case Apple would undo it no matter how long it
had been.

------
hackaflocka
Appalling.

------
lifeisstillgood
tl;dr (I think)

Dave Howells appears to run Avatron.com (looks like a one man shop?). It sells
"Air Display", a screen sharing app for iOS / android.

It seems he got a windfall of sales a year ago, and now has had that windfall
refunded.

He had no idea where the good fortune came from, and he has again no idea
where the bad fortune comes from (Aplle does not release purchaser details to
the app maker)

Dave Howells assumption on Twitter is that his app was bundled with iPads for
a school, that then returned everything.

His quote from the Twitter thread here is revealing :

"Basically Apple let them use my app for free for two whole school years
without even asking my permission."

There are a _lot_ of misconceptions and misunderstanding here - a few are

\- the valid refund period on the App Store does seem excessive. That's nearly
18 mths

\- don't get upset at not knowing where bad fortune comes from if you don't
know where the good comes from too

\- Apple should pass on some (anonymised?) feedback as to why the app was
refunded.

\- this is all made worse by it being 500 at once.

\- but overall don't complain too much - Apple has built a global platform for
small developers to sell onto that simply would not exist without Apple. It's
incredible and also worrying but it's a ride you are along for, not a market
as we know it.

~~~
zuminator
Bottom line is that this could've just been a billing error from the outset
that it took Apple two years to correct. Howells is making the assumption it
was a school district with no evidence whatsoever. If it was Apple's policy to
refund school district 3rd party app purchases regardless of time, we would be
hearing this complaint constantly, not just from this one guy.

~~~
vsl
> Howells is making the assumption it was a school district with no evidence
> whatsoever.

 _You_ are making an assumption that he has no evidence with no evidence
whatsoever.

Apple provides educational discounts (if you allow it in your app’s iTC
settings). He could almost certainly tell the purchase was from a school
simply by dividing the reported revenue by the number of sold copies and
comparing it with their regular price in the (also visible in the report)
country.

