
BMW Loses Core Development Team of Its I3 and I8 Electric Vehicle Line - jseliger
http://www.wsj.com/articles/bmw-loses-core-development-team-of-its-i3-and-i8-electric-vehicle-line-1461086049?mod=e2tw
======
mdorazio
Executives are not the development team, and there's no word on whether actual
EV engineers have defected as well. This really isn't surprising given the
amount of poaching going on in the market these days between Tesla, Faraday,
various VC-backed startups, and the upcoming China/emerging market players.
Given the choice to get a better salary and actually work on a product
millions of people might want instead of slogging away on a product line that
BMW clearly doesn't care much about, these moves really aren't unexpected.

~~~
dagw
_Executives are not the development team_

However in many cases they are the senior engineers of the development team.
In this case the defection included executives who developed the i8 plug-in
hybrid sports car and the electric powertrains for the i-series.

~~~
Matthias247
Not really. These big corporations have between 4-5 hierarchy levels. All
people that are actually performing the engineering are on the lowest level -
whether they are junior or senior engineers. And often even they are not aware
of the details, because the actual engineering work is contracted. The next
level are team leaders, which are only rarely involved in the development
work. And the executives the article talks about are probably even 2 levels
higher up. So maybe they lost some coordinators with a good vision, but not
really the development team or technical knowledge.

~~~
dagw
Even if the executives in question just spent their time dealing with
coordinating efforts today, it's not unreasonable that they where doing real
engineering 5 years ago when the development work was being done. The US might
be different, but in Europe you generally don't become an executive in charge
of a major engineering project without having earned your proverbial dues.

~~~
Matthias247
Disclaimer: I am located in Europe, working in the discussed industry and have
spent the major time of my professional career at an automotive OEM (although
not BMW).

I'm can totally acknowledge that most executives there have an engineering
background (by degree) and started in an engineering position.

But for lots of them this point of their career is far behind them (>> 5
years), the field that they have actually worked on might not match their
current position or that technology isn't even relevant any more. Executives
that have worked as engineers in some mechanical field in the 90s and are now
responsible for some cloud software or automated driving technology
development (without any kind of SW knowledge) are not uncommon. It might make
sense for the companies - but I also would not label these as the "development
team" with the deep technical know-how.

------
justsaysmthng
Sensationalist clickbait title. There's mention of 4 i-series executives
leaving (BMW has over 100,000 employees), which is somewhat expected, given
that the article mentions that i sales haven't been stellar.

True, I haven't seen too many i models on the streets, but I haven't seen too
many of competitor's electric models either.

So the market is still not quite ready for them and the manufacturers, I
guess, are wary of betting it all on the electric card.

Of course there'll be people moving from company to company, just like people
from Apple move to Google and vice-versa and it's normal, but the tone of this
article is like "BMW is collapsing and everyone is running for their lives...
to China".

Why is this even in the news ?

Press is so unreliable and sensationalist these days .. Or has it always been
like this ?

Edit:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa5_tudyAF8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa5_tudyAF8)

~~~
smt88
> _True, I haven 't seen too many i models on the streets, but I haven't seen
> too many of competitor's electric models either._

Anecdotes. I see Teslas all the time. Neither of us is seeing a representative
sample.

> _So the market is still not quite ready for them_

Tesla has 325,000 preorders.

> _wary of betting it all on the electric card_

They don't have much choice about how much to bet. The US government has
mandated a certain percentage of their sales be low-emission vehicles by 2017.

> _Why is this even in the news_

It tells us that the I Series is a failed/failing product line and that Future
is giving better incentives to electric-vehicle executives.

> _Or has it always been like this_

It has always been like this. In fact, it used to be much worse (see: yellow
journalism and William Randolph Hearst).

~~~
PinguTS
> > True, I haven't seen too many i models on the streets, but I haven't seen
> too many of competitor's electric models either.

> Anecdotes. I see Teslas all the time. Neither of us is seeing a
> representative sample.

I have seen only 3 Teslas on the road in my lifetime, besides some promo by
the Tesla store. 2 of them just last weekend on the Autobahn and they where
slow as a turtle with about 120 km/h. I was going by with about 180 km/h.

> > So the market is still not quite ready for them

> Tesla has 325,000 preorders.

Funfact: Nissan has already sold and delivered much more Leaf (>1 Million)
than Tesla will produce by 2020. But everybody talks about Tesla as the game
changer.

~~~
jsjohnst
I travel all over the world and have seen literally thousands of them myself.
In NYC/SF/LA area, a day doesn't go by where I don't see at least a few during
the course of the day. I saw 2 in Nashville, TN area two weeks ago. I saw 4 in
Dubai last week and 1 in Abu Dhabi. I've seen them in England, Amsterdam,
Germany, Hong Kong, Japan, Czech Republic, Canada, and more in the past two
years.

It's likely I see them more because I'm looking for them subconsciously (I
think in part because I want one, just can't justify owning one as I rarely
drive at home in NYC) and you just don't care. What your brain/eyes "see" is
very heavily biased on a personal level.

------
Cookingboy
As a long time BMW fan who has a M3 on order, it really is kind of sad to see
that the company is becoming less and less inspired and more and more focused
on short term shareholder happiness.

One one hand, the company is completely ditching its enthusiast root, at least
within its main non-M lineups. The current generation 3 series is one of the
worst offenders at this. In order to pursue mass market profitability, the 3
series has been watered down, its steering became heavily assisted electric
systems, its suspension is tuned for comfort for a more "floaty" feel, its
interior looks good in photos but are filled with cheap plastic everywhere to
save cost. Its brakes no longer bite as hard because BMW doesn't want to
replace too many rotors under their maintenance plane. The old king of sports
sedans now drives like an overpriced and under-equipped Accord with worse
reliability but faster acceleration.

On the other hand their lineups are exploding like Samsung's cellphone lines 5
years ago. Just in the U.S. market there is the 2, 3, 3GT, 3 ActiveHybrid, 4,
4GC, 5, 5GT, 5 ActiveHybrid, 6, 6GC, 7 series, then there is the X1, X3, X4,
X5, X6, Z4, and then there is the M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M5 GC, and X5 M, X6 M.
Then there is the i3 and i8. They are really trying to go for market share,
but are losing leadership positions in many market sectors that they used to
completely dominate (ATS-V now drives better than a M3, C class now is just as
sporty and way more luxurious than a 3 series).

And now they are barely dangling their feet in the EV front, while Tesla is
charging ahead full speed (pun intended). M division is still doing good work
technically, but even them are lost in the "spec game" and their new cars are
all faster but less fun to drive than their predecessors.

My advice to BMW: Kill the i division, don't make EV a freaking hobby, do a
serious EV within your main line-up and heavily push it. Don't be afraid to
give it a sports tuned suspension with heavy and precise steering, add some of
that old BMW magic back. Even if it doesn't become profitable in the short
term it will create a halo effect for the whole company. Otherwise it's only a
matter of time that the old school enthusiasts completely abandon you and the
newer generations go chase after Teslas.

/rant

~~~
patrickk
>My advice to BMW: Kill the i division, don't make EV a freaking hobby, do a
serious EV within your main line-up and heavily push it.

Make an all-electric version of the 3, 5 series and X series to go toe-to-toe
with Tesla directly, instead of watered down hybrids with shit range under a
non-mainstream product line.

Additionally, Audi's (under the VW umbrella not BMW group) is "Vorsprung durch
Technik", which is used in most of their non-US marketing. It translates as
"Progress through innovation", if they were serious about this they would have
taken the EV market much more seriously by now.

~~~
_pmf_
The i8 is serious car. The i3 is not bad, either.

> Make an all-electric version of the 3, 5 series and X series to go toe-to-
> toe with Tesla directly

I have my popcorn ready for Tesla's production ramp-up.

~~~
Shivetya
Tesla has a problem where they don't have the cash on hand to build that
production line quickly, nor have the equipment on site or people trained to
use it for the capacity they will need.

BMW's i3 and i8 are both attempts at not only testing electrification but
beyond that they went after materials testing and packaging. As in, the i3 was
a moon shot in materials technology and its battery pack is actually quite
serviceable.

While I know everyone loves to toot the Tesla horn the real problem that hit
the other car makers was GM. GM because showed what having established
relationship with suppliers and a wealth of in house knowledge can do in short
order. GM is bringing a 200+ mile range EV to the market THIS YEAR, not late
2017, 2018 or whenever.

That car, the Bolt, has basically obsoleted every sub 100 and even sub 120
range EV over night. GM's supposed battery costs are lower than projections
from Tesla's gigafactory

~~~
PhantomGremlin
Is it a GM car or is it an LG car? From Wikipedia:

 _The battery, motor, drive unit will be manufactured at LG, Incheon, South
Korea_

~~~
blackguardx
Are iPhones Qualcomm phones because they use a Qualcomm radio?

------
edent
I've a BMW i3. I think the manufacturer said that the majority of people
buying the i3 had never been BMW drivers before. Certainly true in my case.
It's a perfect city car, and good for my 70 mile commute. The REx makes it
practical for long distances (by EU standards).

That said, I doubt I'd buy another BMW. Over-priced, poor apps, crappy in-car
computer, every halfway decent option comes at a ridiculous price, maddening
missing options (no heated steering wheel!), and a UI that's basically junk.

I don't know if that's reflective of the general BMW "way" \- reading online
it seems to be - but it's like dealing with a company from the dark ages.

BMW have proven that they can build and design electric vehicles. They now
need to concentrate on _why_ people don't want to buy into their brand. Maybe
they can make it as an Apple - ultra-expensive luxury for people willing to
turn a blind eye to imperfections - or maybe they need to concentrate on a
superior user-experience from purchase to drive.

The tech is there and evolving - it is just the company which is stagnating.

(My review of the car, if you're interested -
[https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2015/09/i3-electric-car-
review/](https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2015/09/i3-electric-car-review/) )

Edit: "How many i3 buyers are new to BMW? About 80 percent"

Source
[http://europe.autonews.com/article/20140606/ANE/140609922/bm...](http://europe.autonews.com/article/20140606/ANE/140609922/bmw-
sales-boss-robertson-says-born-electric-range-will-help-boost)

~~~
jseliger
_I 've a BMW i3. I think the manufacturer said that the majority of people
buying the i3 had never been BMW drivers before. . . . Over-priced_

It mostly seems to be overpriced, though perhaps tax incentives and gas costs
make it more competitive in Europe. In the U.S., it's hard to imagine buying
one over a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt (especially because the 2016 Volts are
getting stellar reviews).

------
mc32
"That's too long for young people who want to change the world,” a person
close to the company said"

Then I guess they're new to the auto industry. Even Tesla moves slow. With
things like cars and power plant you can't just move fast and break things.

Still a hit for BMW and a coup for Tencent.

~~~
Gustomaximus
To claify the line before that quote says: "But a long-awaited third model in
the i-series won’t be launched before 2020"

That's 5+ years for a new model. It's say that is pretty damn slow for car
manufacturers that tend to release a model upgrade per year. Especially given
ever developing tech position of electric.

Maybe they are expecting the development to be done in Audi/Porshe companies
and BMW will tag along. I find it hard to believe BMW management dont see (and
plan for) where the market is clearly going.

~~~
steffan
While a long time, five years doesn't sound excessively long to develop an
entire new model, distinct from an upgrade to one of the existing lineups. As
an example, look at the amount of time the Tesla Model 3 was in development
and still remaining until the first deliveries.

Not defending BMW; they seem to have missed the boat in this iteration.
Perhaps they'll be able to find their way, but they'll have to play catch-up
for a while.

~~~
donkeyd
The i8 (the second i-line car) was released in june 2014, which means that
it'd be 6 years between the i8 and a third car. There were 4 years between the
Tesla Roadster and Model S, 3 between Model S and Model X and probably 2-3
between Model X and Model 3.

If the next car in the i-line is planned for 2020, I understand that these
'young people' think it's slow. And it's obvious that it isn't a priority for
BMW.

~~~
mc32
So I'm not clear if their complaint was slow model development cycles or new
models coming to market. One is, it takes us too long to go from idea to off
the line, the other is we don't have enough new car ideas.

------
_s
There was a video ([http://youtu.be/uDr4L6BzpP8](http://youtu.be/uDr4L6BzpP8))
posted recently discussing the manufacturing tech within the i3; absolutely
fascinating - the general gist being how this car is the Model T of our time.

Perhaps it is a big loss or not that great; eitherway I believe the company
will do just fine - they've set themselves up very well for the future unlike
many of the other manufacturers in terms of brand, mobility, innovating /
delivering on new tech / processes etc.

~~~
justsaysmthng
Here's a video of the i3 production line:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa5_tudyAF8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa5_tudyAF8)

As can be seen, they are not joking around. To me it looks like technology
brought by aliens from the future.

------
codeulike
The way the traditional car makes are offering electric vehicles as a niche
side product makes no sense. There's no conviction to it. Electric shouldn't
be offered as an option, like a sunroof or convertible. Its the future. The i3
is marketed like 'here's a quirky car for weird people who dont like dinosaur
juice'. No wonder staff would rather work for a startup. Go to a dealership
and ask them about the electric range - the dealers dont give a shit.

~~~
mtgx
Indeed. That's exactly why Tesla will win over any other car manufacturer.
They treat it as "just another segment in the market", when they should be
remaking _all of their products_ as EVs.

------
tempestn
When I see an article about the i series, I can't help saying: if they had
just made a line of full electrics that look like other BMWs, they would sell
far more of them. I'm sure these things appeal to some, but I can't be the
only person who finds them hideous. Just because it's an electric car doesn't
mean it needs to look like something out of Tron.

~~~
arethuza
I find the i3 and particularly the i8 rather nice looking - certainly better
than most other current BMWs. Then again I do like Tron!

------
PeterStuer
Been driving BMW's for the past 10 years. I'm not big into cars and try to
avoid driving when I can, but as far as rides go those are nice vehicles. To
get me to stay with the brand, BMW needs to bring to market a 5 series plug-in
hybrid with more than a token green-wash electric motor within the next 18
months, and it doesn't look like they will be able to deliver.

~~~
angerman
Same here. Even though my current location frees me of the need of a car
(public transport is ubiquitous in this city state) BMW has been the make that
provided the cars I liked driving short and long distances most. While I'd
certainly look at BMWs offering of cars if I ever need one again, right now
I'm quite sure I'd opt for a Tesla, as I don't see BMW having a proper
contender.

~~~
sirkneeland
Singapore?

~~~
stillworks
Isn't it difficult to even buy/keep a car in Singapore ? Or maybe I missed /s

~~~
sirkneeland
Ludicrously so. I was talking to an Uber driver there who said the high cost
of car ownership (namely the COE - Certificate of Entitlement) makes owning a
car simply for the sake of Uber driving to be generally uneconomical.
Especially as the COE cost is due to rise substantially.

------
jonah
This is a really interesting discussion about the production tech in the i3.
"Cutting Edge" and "Revolutionary" are used.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDr4L6BzpP8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDr4L6BzpP8)

You can buy the report for $500k:
[http://leandesign.com/bmw/](http://leandesign.com/bmw/)

------
Htsthbjig
I am owner of different electric cars. I have an IT company so for us electric
cars are more than a battery on wheels. It is a car you could put sensors on
and do lots of stuff easily, like automatically drive and so on.

I don't consider BMW sales low. Quite the contrary. Read "The Innovation
dilemma" to see what is happening here. Sales of electric are low compared to
normal cars but they are extremely high for electric growing at an exponential
rate.

So high that right now with the Tesla batteries alone in the next two years
the price of lithium alone will double or triple, because the Gigafactory
alone will produce in a year more batteries that are currently manufactured in
the entire world today.

What is probably going to happen is that electric batteries need for cars will
advance the development of new batteries that do not depend on lithium, like
grapheme, because lithium availability is limited.

------
mootothemax
I'd love to know whether car-fanatic kids today have posters of the BMW i8 up
on their walls. (well, or as their desktop wallpapers, for that matter)

Ever since I saw one in Real Life - but _how_ I covet my neighbour's i8!

~~~
greglindahl
I suspect that EV-fanatic kids don't think much of the i8 -- it's a plug-in
hybrid with weak all-electric performance. It would have made a great all-
electric car.

------
Hermel
BMW sells more electric cars than Tesla in some markets and about half as many
globally. Unlike the WSJ, I would say these are respectable figures.

~~~
codeulike
I'm finding it hard to find any i series sales figures for anywhere but the
US. But in the US last year they sold 11,000 - less than half of what Tesla
sold. For pure EVs they took 3rd place behind Tesla and Nissan Leaf. Rumoured
about 25,000 worldwide sales which is about half of Tesla's (rapidly growing)
worldwide. The Leaf consistently takes second place after Tesla.

~~~
varjag
Here in Norway, world's 3rd largest EV market, they are behind Nissan, Tesla,
VW and KIA.

------
noahmbarr
Heard the entire "i" program is a huge money losing offset so BMW can make the
volumes they want of their highly profitable, yet gas-guzzling "M" versions.

CAFE is no joke
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Econo...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy))

------
mosselman
Could someone explain to me how this works legally? Don't contracts have
clauses in them to prevent people moving to a new job in the same industry or
clauses that prevent people from taking old employees with them when they move
to another company?

~~~
kidmenot
IANAL but, as far as I know, e.g. here in Italy things work like this:
assuming you decide to leave your day job to found your own company meant to
compete with the company you were working for, your former employer could
theoretically sue you if you found your new company within 5 years of you
leaving (at least this is what I remember). To work around this, you could
pick a partner and make them the head of the company. This could also work in
spite of non-compete clauses, which I think many companies consider as
overkill anyway.

As far as laws preventing your from moving from a company to a competing one
go, I really don't think we have anything like that. Same goes with taking old
employees with you if you move to another company. Which is a Good Thing, if
you ask me, because if people decide to walk away it's probably because they
are sick of it or found something better/better paying/more interesting, and
law preventing you from moving someplace better would be preposterous, IMHO.

Of course, this "lack of regulation" might have to do with the fact that the
vast majority of contracts are of the collective type and not tailored to your
particular company, meaning that you work under the same conditions as most of
the other people doing your job.

According to my limited experience, a company drafting up its own contracts is
a rare occurrence.

~~~
mosselman
Not only are these clauses bad for employees, but the economy suffers as well.
Preventing someone from moving within the same industry (assuming it would
hold up in court) just means that knowledge and experience is thrown away. I
can't imagine any industry benefitting from this, let alone our economy.

------
niels_olson
Loosing a few executives is expected for a product that's mature enough to be
on the market. These guys no doubtedly got a ton of cash for defecting, but
they may also learn if they try to come back that they will be considered
tainted goods.

------
chinathrow
I think "defection" is a strong word here. They simply left.

------
andiwand
Very interesting, that German carmakers don't take e- mobility seriously. They
have outdated concepts, lack of visions and deal with exhaust-emissions-tuning
and irrelevant micro-improvements rather than out of the box thinking into the
future. A paradigm shift is imminent. Goodbye Germaneering. Hello concepts
that help making the world a better place. Thank God for guys like Elon Musk!

------
TwoBit
"core development team." lol

------
nulims
They ain't a set of car keys, are they? It's not as if they're incon-freaking-
spicuous, now is it?

------
sickbeard
After designing a car like that, I can see how they run away. Why can't anyone
design normal electric cars?

~~~
halotrope
It might look weird at first. But it is a very capable and fun car for city
driving. Some things like the doors might not be 'normal' but you will
appreciate when using. The whole thing is very compact without being cramped
inside. Super tight turning circle. Nice materials. If I was responsible for
this car I would be very proud.

~~~
sickbeard
you didn't answer the question tho. why can't they take a normal looking bmw,
like an m3 and make it electric?

------
jordache
I'm sure the other company provided them with significant compensation
premiums over what BMW offered...

------
kabdib
Call me jaded, but losing executives could be a _good_ thing for BMW, and a
bad thing for Future.

