
Year of Upheaval for Restaurants That Ended Tipping - grzm
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/dining/restaurants-no-tipping-service.html
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gommm
> Tips are also handled differently in different states, but in New York, by
> law, they can be pooled and distributed only to “front of house” employees:
> those who work in the dining room, like waiters, bartenders and backwaiters
> (formerly known as busboys).

That really makes no sense to me. When I go to a restaurant, I value the food
a lot more than the service. I've come back again to restaurants where I hated
the service but loved the food. I've never returned to a restaurant where I
loved the service but the food was so-so. So, if I had to choose, I'd be
tipping the kitchen staff only.

But as a European, I don't really like the practice of tipping and the rather
pushy service from waiters trying to increase the bill (and come every 5
minutes asking me if everything's alright) that comes with it. It's also so
much easier to not have to think about tipping at the end of a meal.

~~~
wil421
The kitchen staff are paid much higher hourly and usually work full time. If
you heard what kitchen staff say about customers you probably wouldn't want to
tip them.

For example when I was a waiter we made $2.13 an hour. Kitchen staff were
usually in the $10-$15 range and many of them got overtime.

Tipping is just a way for owners to increase profits by passing more cost to
the customer.

~~~
gommm
Ok, in the article, they mentioned: > “There was regularly a 500 percent
deficit between the back of the house and the front of the house,” said Abram
Bissell, the executive chef of the Modern. “Like every kitchen in New York, we
were having trouble attracting and retaining talent at that pay grade.”

and

>An experienced line cook who carries $40,000 in debt from years of culinary
school earns $12 an hour, while a new server can reap three times that much.

So it was my understanding that the Kitchen staff weren't paid that well.
Also, I don't really care what they say about customers as long as the food is
great :) They're not customer facing anyway.

But yes I do agree, tipping is just a way for owners to increase profits by
passing more costs to the customer. It's exploitative and it creates bad
incentives in term of customer interactions. I don't think that the customer
service in restaurants is better in the US than in countries without tipping
culture but on the other hand, I've seen quite a bit of pushy obnoxious
behaviors from waiters that were trying to increase their tips.

~~~
wil421
You are talking about high end restaurants in New York. Chains and smaller
mom/pop restaurants and not hiring line cooks with degrees.

Servers do make much more money but sometimes having steady pay and full time
benefits can even out. Being a career cook can earn high pay later and/or you
can even start you're own restaurant.

Front of house can be rude and pushy in US and abroad. The one difference I've
seen in the US is they are slightly more attentive but its also not really
needed. The customers demand it at this point. Latin America was much much
slower than US or EU. Italy had a decent balance between too little or too
much attention. EU were not as friendly but it wasn't necessarily a bad thing.

------
thinkloop
No tipping is tricky when it's not mandated, because prices always look and
feel more expensive comparatively, even if it works out the same in the end.
People are very impressionable to their initial sub-conscious impressions.
Hence pricing like $9.99. It seems marketers have been aggressively going the
other way over the last few years: do whatever it takes to minimize the
sticker shock, then siphon as much as possible from the relationship.

\- new car for only $149! (every two weeks)

\- cheap tickets, but charge for seat-choice, blankets, bags, etc.

\- collect hundreds of tiny taxes instead of one equivalent (simpler) income
tax

\- loss lead then recoup on servicing and insurance

\- cheap plans with punitive overages

\- access fee, upgrade fee, change fee introduced at the cash

I'm personally finding it more and more difficult to calculate total cost of
ownership of products and services.

If your prices are advertised at 20% higher than everyone else's, I can't see
this working except at the most inelastic high-end restaurants.

~~~
IanCal
On the other side, it reduces cognitive overhead. For this, see unlimited
plans (e.g. all you can eat, all inclusive holidays, unlimited streaming like
netflix, etc) which may or may not be more expensive than paying as you go.
Even bags of veg costing more than individual items in the UK is common.

It reduces the effort of making the decision, and so makes it the easiest
path.

All you can eat restaurants are probably the simplest counterexample for your
list.

It can remove the decision between places from "Well X is a bit less than Y
but then the service is better, what's 20% of that vs 15% of ... added..." to
just "It costs $X".

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fermigier
This transition (from a tipping system to a "service included" system)
happened in France in the 70s.

I'm personally, as a French and as a customer, much more confortable with the
new system, and I always a bit ill at ease when dining out in countries that
still use the old system: fear of making a miscalculation, of forgetting the
tip, of not giving an amount that would be satisfying for the waiter/waitress,
of the money not going to the actual person who would deserve it (especially
when paying with a credit card), etc.

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_ph_
I hate tipping for all the awkward situations that can arise, when there is
confusion about the expected amount for the "average" tip. Recently I attended
a dinner for which the attending group had gotten a food voucher and only had
to pay the drinks. Which we did with a nice tip - for the drinks. Neither we
nor the giver of the voucher had preempted, that the waiter expected a tip for
the food too. Which of course is debatable, as here in Germany, service is
considered to be included in the prices. So, at the end, no one was happy,
without any malicious intends on our side.

Traditionally, there was little tipping here in Germany, as service is
included in the prices. One would usually just round up the cents. But with
growing internationalization, tips started to grow - while technically still
not required, there is now a strong expectancy of some tipping, adding to the
confusion about the right amount.

At least, as long the basic service is included in the posted price, one can
use the tipping as a feedback instrument. Rarely, I cut the tip to zero when I
was very unhappy with the service provided, while I am happy to pay a generous
tip, if I thought I had been serviced very well.

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th0ma5
Surprised it doesn't mention the somewhat unspoken agreement that at least
some of tip wages go unreported by those that receive them, although, I guess
that is possibly disappearing with the increase in credit card tipping
perhaps?

~~~
zeroer
If you really like your server, pay the bill with a credit card, but leave no
tip on the card, then pay the tip with cash.

~~~
chrisseaton
Because that facilities tax evasion?

~~~
glibgil
Yes

~~~
chrisseaton
It seems crazy to me that you're doing this as a kind of social service for
the waiter or waitress, while helping to withhold owed tax revenue that could
be used for other people who may be in need of social services.

~~~
KKKKkkkk1
Why would one prefer to pay for abstract social services extended to people
who are TBD instead of rewarding a specific person to whom one is actually
grateful?

~~~
chrisseaton
Because of the law? You can still reward them as much as you want, but the law
says that some of that reward has to be sent to the government. I can
understand not agreeing with that law, but I can't understand justifying
helping someone to breaking it in a non-emergency situation.

~~~
maverick_iceman
I don't think most people would comply with the law (at the expense of even
minor personal gratification) unless there is a possibility of penalty.

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smallnamespace
Even if these restaurants succeed, one risk is that 'no tipping' is just
something that upscale restaurants in rich areas adopt because only they can
afford to.

Waiters in those restaurants are already compensated much better than your
average waiter on a roadway diner -- this would literally only be helping the
already better off.

~~~
Mao_Zedang
Or you know just pay people minimum wage at least. I am not sure why certain
service based jobs in America attract a tip and some do not.

~~~
lil_cain
That article indicates that there are both tipped, and untipped minimum wages
- i.e. tipped staff earn less at minimum wage.

~~~
iopq
If they earn less than minimum wage, the restaurant has to actually compensate
them up to the minimum wage. They only earn a lower nominal wage because it's
expected they get more from tips.

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musha68k
Wage slavery is especially rampant in the food and beverage industry where low
margins and high competition are the norm.

Including "tips" (you could still _tip_ for extraordinary service) as well as
sales tax in the price might be the first step towards more transparency and
_fair pay_ for everyone involved (owners to waiters) in what essentially
amounts to a luxury service anyway.

~~~
nish1500
I am in Thailand now, where the amount you see on the menu is exactly what you
pay.

I just spent 10 days in New Delhi, India, where they add between 25% and 33%
to your bill, before tips, in the name of VAT, Service Tax and Service Charge.

It's a world of difference. So much trust is lost.

~~~
55555
In many restaurants in Thailand they add 10% + 7% (service charge and VAT) to
the prices listed on the menu. However, the menu must disclose this, typically
in fine print at the bottom.

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woof
This Freakonomics episode from 2013 is well worth spending 37 minutes on
before commenting. Or tipping...

[http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-
a-n...](http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-new-
freakonomics-radio-podcast/)

~~~
grzm
As is this one from March 2016: "The No-Tipping Point"
[http://freakonomics.com/podcast/danny-
meyer/](http://freakonomics.com/podcast/danny-meyer/)

------
wubbfindel
I've been to many restaurants here in the UK (and in Europe) where the
"service charge" is automatically applied to the bill. You're not expected to
tip at these places.

Many people don't realise; If you receive bad service, complain and the charge
can be either reduced or waived altogether.

[edit for clarity]

~~~
robjan
I don't really like the trend of automatically adding a service charge to
bills in London. It's a bit dishonest as it's just used as a way to reduce the
prices on the menu outside the door to draw more customers in and the staff do
not directly receive the money raised.

~~~
wubbfindel
In a lot of places they don't directly receive the tips either, they all go in
to one pot to be shared.

Have you ever tried asking for the charge to be removed if you're not happy
with the service?

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tmnvix
_slightly related:_ I've never been to the US but have been aware of the
mandatory tipping situation for a fair while. I'm curious though; when I was
first made aware of it (2 or 3 decades ago), I am sure that the 'standard' tip
was supposed to be closer to 10% than 20%. Is this correct? Has the actual %
amount changed?

~~~
adiabatty
Two or three decades ago 15% was modal (and it might still be), but I hear the
mean crept up to 18% sometime in the past five years.

~~~
tmnvix
Interesting. I wonder why. Maybe compensating for stagnating wages? Or maybe
falling food and beverage costs (in relative terms)?

~~~
erroneousfunk
I live in the US and have noticed the same phenomenon. I assumed it was just
social pressure and growing awareness of inequality and poor living conditions
of some wait staff. Giving an extra $2 is an easy way to feel good about
yourself. Then more people started doing it, and to keep feeling good about
yourself you had to tip more and more. I'll give exactly 15% if the service is
bad, 20% if it's good.

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_nalply
To avoid the sticker shock: List the prices minus a service charge of 15%. On
the menu prominently display that a service charge is added. Perhaps it's a
bit confusing but at least the prices are comparable.

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rdl
I don't see why they can't just keep prices the same and add a "mandatory 20%
service charge" at the bottom.

~~~
chipperyman573
Because then you're just adding a mandatory 20% tip, when a tip is supposed to
reward good service. Of course, it really doesn't mean that any more (they're
more or less expected/required) but I usually get pretty annoyed when I see a
"Mandatory 18% gratuity for parties of 6 or more" thing at the bottom of a
menu (even though I usually tip 18-20%). If you're going to require a 20%
gratuity, increase all prices by 20% instead of making me multiply every price
by 1.2.

At least when tipping is "optional" restaurant owners can pull the "Well you
can tip whatever you want, including nothing" card, but if you require 20%
then you're just adding a hidden fee.

If you went to walmart and there was a sign at the front of the store saying
all prices would be increased by 20%, that wouldn't be acceptable. Why should
it for restaurants? If you really want to give 20% of every bill to the wait
staff, then increase the prices of everything by 20% and give it to them
automatically.

~~~
SilasX
I much prefer "everyone pays the same" rather than "(the most aggressive and
able-to-rationalize why they can tip less this time) get subsidized by people
with qualms".

The case of Walmart would seem to go against your point; they're much closer
to the tip-free model. "You see this price? That's what you pay." (With the
caveat that some items are taxed.)

If anything, modern/Western retail stores closely parallel the transition that
tipless restaraunts are making: there _used_ to be an ad-hoc, inefficient,
confusing, anti-introvert system for vending goods. It was called "haggling".
It was replaced by a higher-volume, fixed price system that provided greater
assurance that customers weren't getting ripped off or subsidizing those who
were better at the dance.

Lots of parallels to how tipping works.

Edit: A closer parallel would be if Walmart replaced pretax prices and "you
just have to know that some of these are taxed at whatever-the-current-local-
rate is" with tax-inclusive prices.

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golergka
I know that I would avoid no-tpping restoraunts as a customer - losing ability
to give direct feedback on the quality of service is not something in my
interest at all.

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thesimpsons1022
i'm curious to know if abolishing tipping reduces performance? it seems like
there's no reason to put in extra effort if all of them are paid the same and
that the worst performer could be paid the same as the best.

~~~
continuational
If a restaurant has bad service, people will eat elsewhere. That means
restaurants will hire waiters who provide good service and fire waiters who
provide bad service. It seems to work out well enough in countries where you
don't normally tip.

