
Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited - Red_Tarsius
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/united-states-files-civil-action-forfeit-thousands-ancient-iraqi-artifacts-imported
======
rabboRubble
What boggles me in this case is that the Hobby Lobby people involved are not
not already on a fast track for criminal charges.

There are cases where simply donating money intended for orphan to the wrong
type of Islamic organization has led to jail time.

What more giving millions to buy black market artifacts from ISIS!

I'll try to dig up a link about the charitable donation.

Edit: Supreme Court ruling on providing support to organizations designated as
terrorist organizations.

[http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-court-
idUSTRE...](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-court-
idUSTRE65K4B420100621)

This is a better article about the same case:

[http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/21/high-
court-u...](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/21/high-court-
upholds-material-support-law/)

ACLUs commentary on Chilling Muslim charitable giving in the "war on terrorism
funding"

[https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/humanrights/blockingfaith.pd...](https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/humanrights/blockingfaith.pdf)

And here we go, this is the case I recall. Two "normal" women tried and
convicted of providing terrorist support. The government made the case that,
despite the intended charity to orphans, the women should have known they were
funding a terrorist organization's larger efforts. The Hobby Lobby guys need
to be held to the same standards as these (likely poor) women.

[http://www.startribune.com/two-rochester-women-
get-10-20-yea...](http://www.startribune.com/two-rochester-women-
get-10-20-years-for-aiding-somalia-terrorists/207699791/)

~~~
Agathos
In Republican eyes, they are heroes for their Supreme Court victory over
Obamacare. With that comes immunity from pretty much anything short of a dead
girl or a live boy, as the saying goes.

~~~
TheGirondin
And in Democrat eyes, they were already hated villains and they are cheering
for the company to hit hard.

~~~
Agathos
Yeah, but none of those Democrats are running the Justice Department right
now.

~~~
jgalt212
Yes, but even when the Dems were running DOJ, they did not go after corporate
executives.

new book on this by Pro Publica reporter:

[https://www.amazon.com/Chickenshit-Club-Justice-
Department-C...](https://www.amazon.com/Chickenshit-Club-Justice-Department-
Criminals/dp/1501121367)

------
pboutros
Saw on Twitter that someone called them the "Wahhabi Lobby".

But actually, it seems ridiculous to me that this only warranted a $3m
settlement. They've (almost certainly) been indirectly funding ISIS by robbing
a country of its cultural artifacts. Not cool.

~~~
bogomipz
And perhaps equally infuriating and insulting is this Christian company not
taking any responsibility for the theft or funding terrorists.

From the BBC articles;

>'Hobby Lobby said it "did not fully appreciate the complexities" of the
import process when it began'

and

>'The company imprudently relied on dealers and shippers who, in hindsight,
did not understand the correct way to document and ship these items," Hobby
Lobby said'[1]

Its amazing that "committed evangelical Christians" who said religious beliefs
barred them from paying for certain kinds of contraception in their employees
health care doesn't have the same moral compunction when it comes to stealing
or doing business with terrorists.[2]

Sources:

[1] [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-
canada-40516932](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40516932)

[2] [http://www.bbc.com/news/28093756](http://www.bbc.com/news/28093756)

~~~
Brendinooo
So how did this go down, in your mind? The President of Hobby Lobby got his
eyes on some shiny objects, then was told to make the check out to Al-Qaeda,
and decided that it was worth funding terrorism to get the items he'd been
lusting after?

Also, would you arrest someone who purchased an item at a yard sale that had
been stolen at one point? Come to think of it, should I be grilling every yard
sale proprietor to make sure that they came into possession of all of their
goods legally?

Yeah, antiquities are higher stakes, but I would hope that if I purchased a
pair of pants that suspiciously looked like they belonged to the neighbor, you
wouldn't be so uncharitable to me in the aftermath.

Look, it's possible that someone did something maliciously. I'd like to think
I'd have acted more above board in this scenario. But this thread reads like
plenty of people have their blinders on today and are fishing for some kind of
hypocrisy story.

"Never attribute to malice...", etc.

~~~
alwayseasy
Yes, antiquities from this part of the world that are sold on the black market
have higher stakes. The DOJ makes it clear Hobby Lobby acted very
suspiciously/maliciously. If you're at a yard sale where you're asked to meet
the seller at the back to see the "real goods" and pay in unusual ways, you're
exposing yourself. Let's not forget, the president of Hobby Lobby isn't naive
when it comes to the law... he navigated a lawsuit to the Supreme Court.

Source:

"Further, when the Artifacts were presented for inspection to Hobby Lobby’s
president and consultant in July 2010, they were displayed informally. In
addition, Hobby Lobby representatives had not met or communicated with the
dealer who purportedly owned the Artifacts, nor did they pay him for the
Artifacts. Rather, following instructions from another dealer, Hobby Lobby
wired payment for the Artifacts to seven personal bank accounts held in the
names of other individuals." [https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/united-
states-files-civ...](https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/united-states-files-
civil-action-forfeit-thousands-ancient-iraqi-artifacts-imported)

~~~
Brendinooo
The DOJ makes it clear that they broke laws. I'm not disputing that. Clearly
they did something wrong, and are paying a pretty penny for it (pocket change
for the CEO, but almost twice what they paid overall).

And as I said, I'd like to think I'd have acted better. People are making good
points in this thread. I'm not blindly trying to defend a company I know very
little about; just trying to poke some holes in the groupthink here.

A few more points:

1\. The BBC article says that they purchased 5,500 artifacts, and the original
article says that they forfeited 144 items. So what's the story here - they
took some calculated risks and ended up functionally paying 4.6 million for
5,356 items? Or, they were actually careful but unfortunately a little under
3% of the items were bad? Could be either, or neither.

2\. Are there any comparable companies/cases? I have no reference point for
this story. When someone else bought a bunch of history, what did their buying
practices look like, and have they ever been in trouble?

3\. Does anyone here know what it's like to buy antiquities? I'd imagine most
people who do it legally will have a more rigorous process, but I have to
believe that in some cases it's not as clean as going to a Sotheby's auction.

4\. Do we know who was responsible for what here? Obviously the buck stops
with the CEO so he deserves to be the face of the criticism here, but is it
possible that, since this was a process that probably spanned multiple
transactions and weeks, he had some help that was less than competent? Doesn't
absolve him of anything, and it didn't! His company was fined. But it pokes a
hole in the "mustache-twirling" narrative.

~~~
bogomipz
>"is it possible that, since this was a process that probably spanned multiple
transactions and weeks, he had some help that was less than competent? Doesn't
absolve him of anything, and it didn't! His company was fined. But it pokes a
hole in the "mustache-twirling" narrative.

From a 2015 article in the Guardian:

"Patty Gerstenblith, a professor of law at DePaul University who is an expert
in cultural heritage, confirmed to the Guardian that she was asked by the
Green family to explain to them how import controls for ancient antiquities
worked in 2010 – a year before the tablets arrived in Memphis. Gerstenblith
said that she went to some lengths to set out for them the potential pitfalls.

“I read them the riot act,” she told the Guardian. “I explained to them how
the system worked in the interest of trying to discourage them from doing
anything illegal. I knew they were building a collection, so I was concerned
they might be doing something they shouldn’t, even out of ignorance of the
law.”[1]

The "moustache twirling narrative" goes something like this:

"The reason that he thinks the Green family might have broken international
law or avoided ethical standards in the antiquities trade is to promote their
overtly Christian beliefs — beliefs they fought for and won at the Supreme
Court last year in their landmark case on the religious freedom of employers
with regards to government mandates on healthcare.

“In their hearts, [I think] they think they’re doing the right thing,” Al-Azm
said. “They look at this cultural heritage and they have a close affinity to
it. They feel that this is something that touches their deep core beliefs, and
they see it in an area or a place that is dangerous or unstable. So they can
justify this sort of activity by saying I’m doing something good for
posterity.”[2]

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/28/hobby-
lobby-...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/28/hobby-lobby-
investigated-ancient-artifacts-iraq)

[2] [https://thinkprogress.org/experts-believe-hobby-lobby-
stole-...](https://thinkprogress.org/experts-believe-hobby-lobby-stole-
biblical-antiquities-from-iraq-heres-why-d4dde5855481)

~~~
Brendinooo
That Think Progress piece was an interesting read, thanks for sharing and
giving some more context to this story.

------
ceedan
Per Hobby Lobby statement: [https://newsroom.hobbylobby.com/articles/artifact-
import-set...](https://newsroom.hobbylobby.com/articles/artifact-import-
settlement/) "At no time did Hobby Lobby ever purchase items from dealers in
Iraq or from anyone who indicated that they acquired items from that country."

lol. Don't ask don't tell, amirite?

It's funny to see HL running through the motions defending themselves on this
one. Surely nobody there is stupid enough to think that we actually buy their
excuses.

~~~
Brendinooo
So in your mind it's just flat-out impossible that the decision-makers here
didn't fully grasp the complexities of the arena they were entering into?

The linked article says that the most we know for sure is that "an expert on
cultural property law retained by Hobby Lobby" warned the company of some
things and the company ignored those things. It doesn't say who heard the
warning, who called the final shots, or what their motives were.

Do you know something these we don't? Perhaps you read a source that I didn't
here.

~~~
ceedan
Are you that dense? That gullible to believe the PR from big company XYZ who
had just gotten caught illegally smuggling artifacts from a warn-torn region
of the world?

Did you not read the part of the article

"The acquisition of the Artifacts was fraught with red flags. For example,
Hobby Lobby received conflicting information where the Artifacts had been
stored prior to the inspection in the UAE. Further, when the Artifacts were
presented for inspection to Hobby Lobby’s president and consultant in July
2010, they were displayed informally. In addition, Hobby Lobby representatives
had not met or communicated with the dealer who purportedly owned the
Artifacts, nor did they pay him for the Artifacts. Rather, following
instructions from another dealer, Hobby Lobby wired payment for the Artifacts
to seven personal bank accounts held in the names of other individuals."

HOBBY LOBBY WIRED PAYMENT FOR THE ARTIFACTS TO SEVEN PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNTS

LOL. THIS MUST BE HOW THE BIG BOY COLLECTORS DO IT HUH? Just hit up the
western union and transfer some cash to a few different bank accounts.... of
course. Nothing funny going on.

And there's more

"All of the intercepted packages bore shipping labels that falsely declared
that the Artifacts’ country of origin was Turkey."

~~~
posterboy
Talking about gullibility when it comes to religion is disingenuous.

------
framebit
I had a summer job at Hobby Lobby roughly a decade ago. The founder has an
autobiography for sale by all the registers that we used to hate-read in the
breakroom over our depressing, windowless lunch breaks. Our favorite bit was
the part where he justified not having bar code scanners on the registers by
saying that employees take more pride in their work (like sticking price
stickers on 1000's of items) when they do it by hand.

------
45h34jh53k4j
Buy priceless artefacts from warzones and funding terror groups who steal
them!

Hey Hobby Lobby, you should also build a conflict diamond collection. If you
want to take a chance you could also get into human trafficking or organ
smuggling.

~~~
tclancy
"Man's gotta have a hobby."

------
moomin
Is it just me, or does Hobby Lobby seem to go out of their way to remind their
customers that their values aren't the same as the customers? Seriously, they
should go out of business.

~~~
Chaebixi
> Is it just me, or does Hobby Lobby seem to go out of their way to remind
> their customers that their values aren't the same as the customers?
> Seriously, they should go out of business.

It's probably just you (or more precisely, those like you).

It's quite possible that your values are not typical of their customers, or
their customers don't care about the values of the owners of the craft store
they patronize.

~~~
moomin
True enough, but I always got the impression their customers would skew
liberal. But that might be my liberal assumptions about who does craft
projects showing through. :)

~~~
gorkonsine
Oh, no. Hobby Lobby's customers are typically conservative suburban
Christians. Liberals with any political awareness at all would know very well
of their contraception case at the SCOTUS, and go to Michael's instead.
There's no shortage of middle-class evangelical Christians in suburban areas
who are perfectly happy to patronize Hobby Lobby and support their political
efforts.

~~~
coldpie
I'd say the vast majority of their customers are just people who want crafting
supplies and it happens to be the nearest big box store for them. I think a
relatively small fraction of the population is as politically aware as you
suggest.

~~~
hplust
The one opportunity I had to go in this store was safely avoided by going to a
Michael instead. specifically because I refuse to give them a cent.

it is extremely difficult to avoid stores/businesses owned by religious
groups.

I recently avoided purchasing an item from Yakima due to the coming across the
following [0]. In reality businesses like Marriott Hotels and Chic Filet
irritate me and I avoid when I can (business uses Marriot for work)

if there was a list of athiest or agnostic owned businesses I would likely
spend more money at these locations than any others.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcapita#Compliance_with_Shari...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcapita#Compliance_with_Sharia)

~~~
gorkonsine
>I recently avoided purchasing an item from Yakima

Luckily, there's a lot of other options there, depending on exactly what
product you're looking at. Thule is a very big competitor here, plus there's
lots of other smaller name-brands too.

But I agree, someone should compile a list of religious-owned companies to
avoid, and a list of atheist/agnostic owned companies to choose instead.

However, I do have to ask what your beef with Marriott is. I looked through
their Wikipedia page and couldn't find anything about them being religious,
except for a mention that they include a copy of the Book of Mormon along with
the Bible in each room, but that could be just a PR thing (pretty much every
hotel in the US has a Bible in each room after all, and they aren't all
religious, they're just catering to America's population). The company itself
is publicly traded, unlike privately-held Hobby Lobby.

The ones that irritate me are ChicFilA and In-and-Out Burger, as they're both
overtly Christian.

This BTW shows why it's a good idea to, in general, avoid buying from American
companies and instead buy from Japanese or western European ones. Japanese
ones are probably easily the safest bets, since Japan has an extremely non-
religious society, and the Abrahamic religions in particular have almost no
representation there. And Japanese companies aren't in bed with Middle Eastern
ones.

------
tyingq
Does anyone know what the purpose of the purchase was? Hobby Lobby isn't a
place people would go to buy things like this. So, I'm assuming it was
something unrelated to their main line of business.

~~~
crisnoble
The owners of Hobby Lobby are building a museum of the bible in Washington DC.
via [http://www.npr.org/2017/07/06/535823149/hobby-lobby-
agrees-t...](http://www.npr.org/2017/07/06/535823149/hobby-lobby-agrees-to-
renounce-smuggled-iraqi-artifacts)

~~~
spookyuser
Well... I don't know what I expected.

------
e59d134d
Amazing, I don't see any outrage from conservatives on funding ISIS by Hobby
Lobby. There are some even defending Hobby Lobby because according to them
Hobby Lobby saved important artifacts from destruction.

~~~
illumin8
The Republicans have proven repeatedly that they put party over everything
else. It doesn't matter. If Ben & Jerry's did this "send them to Gitmo!" If
Hobby Lobby does it? They're good Christians; they can do no wrong...

------
commenter98456
I think a lot of people on here are "fishing for a hypocrisy story" as one
commentor said.

What's the point in that? what if you're right,is it a surprise that hypocrisy
exists? it only speaks to the character of the individual(s) not the quality
or correctness of their belief. A person did something criminal. period. what
point is there to be made with respect to their religion? Did they claim their
religion mandated the importation of the artifcats or the ignorance of the
laws involved? or is the expectation here that people of certail beliefs or
moral values are incapable of committing crimes?

Regardless, I hope the people making this about religion also hold other
corporations who commit crimes to the same standard and associate their
beliefs or religion with their crimes.

I for myself won't correlate an unrelated moral or ethical stand someone is
making to a separate crime they've committed. Would you call a theif a
hypocrite because he said he was against murder? or the same accusation to a
murderer because he was against rape?

Come on... leave some room to reason.

~~~
bogomipz
>"I think a lot of people on here are "fishing for a hypocrisy story"

There's no need to fish. See my comments above, they Green's were well briefed
on this before they started their collection. They were briefed by a well-
known legal authority. Honestly you sound like a shill.

>"Regardless, I hope the people making this about religion also hold other
corporations who commit crimes to the same standard and associate their
beliefs or religion with their crimes.

Why wouldn't they?

>"Come on... leave some room to reason." Except that none of the actions or
claims by the Hobby Lobby stand up to reason, which is why they lost in court.

~~~
commenter98456
Nein, the story is about a crime, why fish or something else?

> Why wouldn't they? Because it happens all the time and nobody says "Oh,
> <insert corp> are atheists,that's why they're so bad, hypocrits!" maybe
> that's just because their beliefs has no moral standards at all.

>"Come on... leave some room to reason." Except that none of the actions or
claims by the Hobby Lobby stand up to reason, which is why they lost in court.

I wasn't defending hobby lobby, "reason" in that context means accusing
someone of a different crime when the evidence/context is for a present crime.
You're calling a thief a hypocrite because he said he doesn't approve of
murder. that is unreasonable.

------
arbitrix
So when will the artifacts be returned to Iraq?

~~~
nappy-doo
Probably the day after the British give back the Elgin Marbles.

------
WhiteNoiz3
Anyone else reminded of Snow Crash by this?

~~~
humanrebar
Honestly no. Which part?

The themes of Snow Crash include anarcho-corporatism, psychological hacking,
and virtual reality. Which of those involves ancient artifacts, smuggling, and
Christian craft stores?

~~~
Analemma_
L. Bob Rife used an Evangelical Christian church as a cover for his plan to
spread the mind-virus that he developed from the information in ancient
Sumerian tablets.

~~~
WhiteNoiz3
Bingo, I was mainly thinking of a large christian organization acquiring
ancient artifacts from the middle east.

~~~
humanrebar
The big bad organization wasn't Christian though. They just acted like they
were.

------
bluetwo
Remember when a Fox News cameraman was busted for doing the same thing?

[http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/23/sprj.nilaw.antiquities/](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/23/sprj.nilaw.antiquities/)

------
Analemma_
I've been taking it as a given that 2017 would just basically be Snow Crash,
and even I didn't see "Evangelical fundamentalists secretly acquiring ancient
cuneiform tablets" coming.

------
monochromatic
Edit: disregard.

Title is bad. There's a civil suit attempting to take the artifacts, but the
government hasn't won yet.

~~~
KC8ZKF
From the article: "The government also filed a stipulation of settlement with
Hobby Lobby, in which Hobby Lobby consented to the forfeiture of the artifacts
in the complaint, approximately 144 cylinder seals and an additional sum of $3
million, resolving the civil action."

~~~
monochromatic
Whoops, never mind.

------
draw_down
Real lovely group of humans over there at Hobby Lobby.

------
mordachai
If you read the indictment, you'll see that it is very clear that it was not a
straightforward or honest mistake.

Here's just one small tip, of many: If you're buying antiquities from a war-
torn region, and the seller tells you to instead wire the money to eight
different people, none of whom is him, it's possible that this transaction is
not on the up and up.

Oh, and a second tip: if you're legally exporting things you think you bought
lawfully, don't disguise them as something else.

But yeah... I get it, you're not really interested in the truth of the matter.
You're just trying to pretend that you're smart or some crap like that.

~~~
Brendinooo
> you're not really interested in the truth of the matter

This is factually incorrect (though perhaps difficult to prove). I am
interested in the truth of the matter.

If you are so quickly and incorrectly judging my motives, perhaps it's
possible that you are doing the same to the people in this article as well?

Do you think this article is on the front page of a bunch of news sites if
it's a boring B2B with a boring CEO who bought the same stuff in the same way
for her personal collection? I feel pretty confident that if President Obama
was buying these (he wouldn't, but let me make the point), the arguments would
be the same but the people arguing them would be reversed.

And that's my prevailing interest in commenting today. This is the forum where
people will give Uber and Tesla every benefit of the doubt, so it was
disappointing to click into the comments and see a mostly one-sided pile-on.

~~~
luddit3
Tired of these tribalism arguments from the right. This is not a nuanced
position like taxes. The left would not defend Obama if he tried to support
terrorist groups by smuggling in stolen artifacts.

------
Analemma_
Don't be silly. Only poor, dark-skinned people get convicted of inadvertently
supporting terrorism. Good White Christians make honest mistakes.

~~~
artificial
How quickly The Troubles and the IRA are forgotten.

~~~
ichamo
I haven't. Donating money to the IRA used to be very fashionable in Boston
bars throughout the 80s and 90s (According to my Northern Irish Protestant
family). I also remember when a Hollywood actor also publicly donated to the
IRA as well.

------
hprotagonist
When they start getting their hands on harleys and nukes from the orthos, call
me. Happy to lend a hand.

------
petraeus
Ever since Drumpf was elected ignorance is now permissible as a total excuse
from the law

~~~
mason240
This was in 2010 - so according to you that makes it President Obama's fault.

~~~
wavefunction
But the settlement occurred in 2017, so according to the calendar it's back to
being President Trump's fault.

~~~
mason240
That's not how time works.

