
Update to Ask HN: What to do if I’m about to lose my job to mental health issues - throwawaydev00
https://pastebin.com/raw/RdLGZpSC
======
gjm11
Just to save readers a couple of clicks, here's the original Ask HN to which
this is a follow-up:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17087155](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17087155)

------
jurassic
> My savings had already been wiped out by a car accident

I am always amazed when I see statements like this coming from people in
highly-paid professions. It seems like the OP has already figured out that
financial insecurity contributes a LOT to stress and can force us into very
sub-optimal decisions. Props to them for connecting those dots.

I hope everybody reading this post takes a moment to review their financial
readiness for different levels of calamity. If you don't have an emergency
fund, make some small adjustments to pile up the cash ASAP.

~~~
maxerickson
Disability insurance too.

~~~
mmt
Unfortunately, this advices is potentially too shallow to be useful, as
(private/individual) DI is tricky.

For it to be useful long-term, you'll need to find a policy with both
guaranteed renewal and guaranteed coverage increase as your income rises,
before any chronic conditions appear (or are diagnosed) or things like car
accidents occur and become pre-existing conditions.

There are other details that make shopping for a policy tedious/tricky, such
as differences in "own occupation" coverage, post-disability inflation
protection not being standard, and the fact that you probably want to choose a
company that'll be solvent 40 years later (since there's no pre-existing
condition exclusion-exception portability like for health insurance, AFAIK).

Meanwhile, while you're employed, those payments, which can be $50-$100/mo
post-tax, may be a total waste, since your employer is likely paying for group
disability coverage, and no (reasonably-priced) policy will double-pay.
Usually, anything you get from Social Security (or any state-mandated)
disability will also reduce the benefit. That is, the total from all sources
will be capped by the most generous policy at somewhere around 60% of pre-
disability income.

The market seems to be geared toward self-employed professionals, such as
dentists, rather than the typical tech worker.

All that said, here's my advice: If your employer offers you a "tax option" or
"imputed income" on the disability insurance premium, choose it (and if they
don't offer it, ask for it). Paying the extra few dollars per paycheck in tax
will mean that 60%-of-pre-disability-income won't be subject to income tax and
would actually be close to a total income replacement.

~~~
patio11
_The market seems to be geared toward self-employed professionals, such as
dentists, rather than the typical tech worker._

AFAIK private disability insurance folks _love_ "typical" tech workers because
they're less likely to malinger than most self-employed professionals, to a
degree which makes getting private long-term disability insurance a bit of a
challenge if one e.g. runs a software consultancy or SaaS business.

(FYI for folks who might find themselves in that situation at some point: I
got Petersen International Underwriters
[https://www.piu.org/](https://www.piu.org/) to do a policy for me, despite
having at the time a "quite complicated" story on the financial front [0].
They don't sell insurance directly to consumers so one has to use a broker;
insubuy.com was adequate for the very modest needs of moving information from
my emails into their inbox.)

[0] A major risk in underwriting folks for disability insurance is moral
hazard; if malingering on insurance is preferable to going to work, some
people might be tempted to do so, and since long-term insurance policies might
last until current facts about someone's business/career are no longer true,
you have to make a best guess on "OK, does it look like their $200k+ income
will continue, or will they eventually face the choice 'Shut down business and
get a job at Target _or_ leave the workforce and bill us for $10k a month.'"

~~~
mmt
> AFAIK private disability insurance folks _love_ "typical" tech workers

It's been more than a few years since I've looked, but any love didn't, then,
translate to a diversity of products, transparency in pricing (e.g. ease of
obtaining quotes), and/or significantly lower premiums (or discounts for
periods of double coverage).

------
honkycat
I'm glad you are getting the help you need.

Michael Jordan has a coach. Programmers and other brain workers have
therapists.

It's so obvious to me that having a neutral person who helps you track and set
goals, track your moods, and help you process work relationships and events
has a huge benefit.

But people ignore this! They are in this macho culture where you need to be
self reliant and going to a therapist is weird and weak.

So instead of getting help, they place the burden on their friends and family
and co-workers to tolerate and correct their shitty behavior.

Your friends or wife is not your therapist. They are not trained, are not
impartial, and wouldn't you rather be having a good time then forcing them to
listen to your constant whining?

I'm diagnosed bipolar and have gotten things under control with the help of a
therapist WITHOUT medication. It's a powerful experience and a cheat-code to
productivity.

------
Regardsyjc
Congratulations OP and thank you for sharing your inspiring update.

When I read your post it sounded like you were being a little too hard on
yourself. Something that helps me is instead of thinking about how far there
still is to go, thinking about how far you've come so far. Or as Adam Grant
says:

"After reaching a goal, raising the bar often increases motivation but
decreases happiness.

To enjoy your success, imagine how your past self would see your current
achievements.

If you knew 5 years ago what you’d accomplish now, how proud would you have
been?"

You're doing great. Thanks for sharing again and keep it up!!

------
cfitz
> My post 4 months ago is why I'm here today. It's the singular action that
> pushed me to talk to my work, to talk to a therapist, and eventually to talk
> to my parents. The truth is it's easy to hole yourself up when you reach a
> dark enough place, but sometimes staying silent is its own torture.

Huge props to you for stepping out and sharing what you were going through. If
only this was more commonplace for others in your situation.

At the end of the day, we all deserve to be happy, and I hope you reach that
point very soon through careful management of all things “life”.

------
bonniemuffin
If you want some help getting your financial life back on track, the folks in
/r/personalfinance are pretty understanding and supportive. If you lay out
your budget and situation, they can help you come up with a plan, and having a
plan to get back on your feet financially will probably have all kinds of good
benefits for your general mental wellbeing.

------
cbanek
I'm so happy to hear that things are looking up for you. I remember when you
posted the first time, and I was really hoping things would work out.

As someone prone to depression throughout their entire life, I have to agree
that a bad job situation can make a depressive-leaning person's life really
bad. I've been going through similar things for the last few months.

I think this is also pushing me to get my own therapist lined up again, as
it's been a while. Like you, I know that there are some things I need help
with, and there's no shame in that. But god, finding mental health
professionals is so hard! Just don't slide back, it's so easy to do, and it
can really hurt for a long time.

~~~
tomatocracy
I'd go further than that. A bad job situation can make _anyone 's_ life really
bad. If you spend more than 50% of your waking hours somewhere, how could it
not?

Although my situation was not anything like as bad, I went through a similar
situation two years ago. The two things I wish in retrospect I'd done
differently are (1) get therapy sooner and (2) get out sooner. The feeling I
had the day I quit that employer is one of the best feelings I've ever had,
even though it was a place I thought I loved. I'm still doing the same job at
a different employer, but the difference is night and day.

At least in my past situation, a huge part of the issue was in recognising
that I was in that situation in the first place. These types of workplace
issues have a nasty habit of creeping up slowly, day by day, week by week, so
that you don't notice them. I kept thinking "it's just this current situation
around [x] thing", when really it was the whole environment.

Add even a small amount of home/personal life stress on top of that (dealing
with very young or teenage kids, moving house, illness, money worries,
relationship problems, ...) and it can be the straw that broke the camel's
back.

I really wish good therapy (with a therapist of your choice) was something
which health insurance/the NHS paid for (at least in the UK, it doesn't). I
hate to think of how many people in these types of situations are put off by
the cost.

------
itwrangler
Well done.. Transitions out of mental illness are personal and difficult -
telling your story may help. If you are still suffering you are right you
_need_ to get more talking help as that, IMO, will be the key to long term
recovery. And I mean long term.

'Shoring up' for the long term is the best you can do for yourself on a
practical level now - work, earn, save, clear debts, that's the practical
steps.

Medically get all the help you can - be it meds, therapy, new ideas..

Maybe get some new ideas happening for you too? On a philosophical front I
mean, I find episodes of depression come with a big slab of "what's the point"
and have thus sometimes found (but this is very individual I guess) that
exposure to new stuff - meditation, buddhism, books/reflections on philosophy
etc helped in the sense of 'seeing a bigger picture'. Getting 'out of oneself'
type activities are helpful during episodes IMO as it reduces (a little) that
introversion which seems to happen and be quite damaging when in the depth of
depression.

I had two years out of work _after_ depression and substance abuse treatment
(I managed to keep my job during this period whilst barely functioning for a
couple of years, more due to bad HR management than anything I did, i.e.
inertia/incompetence on their part). It took 12 months of the out of work time
just to get recovery up to a level where I felt I'd be capable of working
again, and then another 9 months to actually get a gig..

It's a long road, without light sometimes it feels.. but it will pass if you
ensure you keep the minimal practicals together and _ensure_ you get outside
help to deal with what's going on in your head. You are absolutely not alone.
Take care and good luck! S

------
smithmayowa
Great to see that things seem to have turned around for the better for you.

No one deserves to ever feel deppressed, I say this confidently, having been
swallowed by depression once and succesfully coming out to tell its woefull
tales, it's great to see another person escape from its cold, lonely, and sad
clutch.

------
chad_strategic
> Fortunately, I had been searching for work before that day, my therapist had
> helped me realize, part of my depression was from feeling the job was
> inadequate. It involved minimal effort and had failed to fulfill what I was
> looking for when I left my last position.

This is part of my issue as well.

But most importantly, thank you for your story. (It seems that someone is
cutting some onions at my desk, either that or a lot of dust in my office.)

Never underestimate the power of sharing your story.

Thank you.

------
CaptainZapp
Kudos for the courage of writing this up.

Just one thing that occurred to me. Reconsider the necessity to find a _good_
therapist. It can be so immensely helpful.

Best of luck on your ventures and your health!

~~~
maxxxxx
"Reconsider the necessity to find a good therapist."

When I had depression I found this a very difficult and frustrating task that
was depressing by itself. I don't want to say that most therapist are bad but
they are humans and it's very hard to find one that matches well with the
patient.

------
akeck
Congratulations on clawing your way back. After reading about the "Zunger
Shock Sieve" [0], I've started building up my emergency funds. In the US,
health issues are unfortunately a common path to financial distress.

[0] [https://shift.newco.co/2017/12/04/your-financial-shock-
wealt...](https://shift.newco.co/2017/12/04/your-financial-shock-wealth/)

------
carterza
I'm not presently going through exactly what you went through - but I can
relate on many levels.

I've been on and off anti-depressants since I was sixteen, and I'm 33 now. My
self-confidence has been basically destroyed, and I've kind of been just a
shell of a human being ever since middle school. I've never figured myself
out, and I've never felt like I've had time to, or the space and energy.

I've been in and out of therapy, I've been to rehab, and I've seen lots of
professionals - psychiatrists and therapists.

My current psychiatrist is helping me a lot - but it also seems like it's two
steps forward, and three backwards. During the spring, I gained a lot of
confidence, and felt like I was back on track, and it only took one thing
going haywire in my plans, for everything to once again fall off the rails.

Like you - I finally broke down to my parents (who have been amazingly
supportive over the years) - and this isn't the first time I've broken down in
front of them - but hopefully it's the last.

I've decided that the career path I've sought for myself, which is the line of
work they both worked in, isn't for me.

My main goal right now, which I'm going to need their help with (because at
this point accomplishing basic tasks like opening my email / checking my
physical mail - are terrifying to me), is to sell the house I purchased
several years ago. This thing has been a boat anchor, and has helped keep me
stuck by requiring a certain level of monthly income.

After that, I hope to quit my job and set out across the country to do some
soul searching. Hopefully via the house sale and savings I've accrued, I can
keep myself afloat for a while, while I pursue new opportunities.

My goal is to enter a new industry, that is arguably more rigorous than the
one I'm leaving, but I feel like my current position has contributed quite a
bit to my deterioration in mental health, and that it's not what I love - or
even want - to do.

Ultimately, I keep myself going by remembering the alternative is not an
option. I try to think that things will get better, but it's difficult at
times. The one thing I can always rely on fortunately (and this isn't true for
many), is family and my close friends. Networking is very important, and so is
remembering that everyone, including you and me, deserves to be happy.

~~~
wjossey
Best of luck to you as you make these changes.

Your journey is yours alone to make, so don’t take this advice but rather an
anecdote.

When I was able to better understand what I valued in life (which is also
constantly changing) I was able to find a lot more peace in my day to day
life. I do what I value. I avoid what I do not. Much of what I value comes
with challenges, pain, and difficulty, but because I value it the friction
proves beneficial in the long wrong. I eschew things I don’t value (social
media), but constantly reevaluate and challenge myself.

Good luck. I hope you find what you’re seeking.

~~~
carterza
Thank you!

I really do value that feedback. I have also stopped using almost all forms of
social media. I can't drop twitter - but that is because I value a lot of the
content I read there (mostly related to game development).

I've also learned that I need to focus on what is important to my health, and
less, on what is important to others.

These are hard lessons for some individuals to learn. It's amusing - because
very much of my behavior is self-centered.

I think the key lesson I've learned throughout my continual growing process,
is that thoughtless compassion and service to others, grants you the ability
to also be compassionate towards yourself.

Living in your problems, hating life, focusing on negatives all the time,
wraps your head around your own negativity and dissatisfaction with life.

It's a fine balance that needs to be maintained, and it's easy to slip up in
that regard, but I think it's also critical in healing and recovery.

And even then - living this and thinking it, are two totally different things.

------
benrawk
Antidepressants really do help. Especially for getting out of the lowest lows.
Then, when you are out of the lowest lows, the other things (like talk
therapy) have a chance to be effective.

~~~
hndamien
I absolutely hate anti-depressents but there is some truth to this statement.

------
woofyman
When I’ve been depressed, here’s what worked for me.

1) long walks in nature 2) eat well 3) sleep (If necessary get a prescription
for trazodone, they’re cheap $7.50 for 90 pills) 4) antidepressant meds

~~~
m-i-l
_> "When I’ve been depressed, here’s what worked for me. 1) long walks in
nature"_

Interestingly "Doctors in Shetland are to start prescribing birdwatching,
rambling and beach walks in the Atlantic winds to help treat chronic and
debilitating illnesses for the first time. From Friday [5 Oct 2018], doctors
working in the 10 GP surgeries on the islands will be authorised by the
archipelago’s health board, NHS Shetland, to issue 'nature prescriptions' to
patients to help treat mental illness, diabetes, heart disease, stress and
other conditions." [0]

[0] [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/05/scottish-
gps...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/05/scottish-gps-nhs-
begin-prescribing-rambling-birdwatching)

~~~
tomatocracy
Yes. I would add that it's not just "in nature" that's important (and it is)
but also "walks" \- physical activity, even light physical activity like
walking, can be a huge help to some people in combating stress and depression
(but of course, everyone's different so these aren't completely universal).

------
monotone666
I had a psychotic break from reality while employed a few years ago. This was
mostly due to a long term viral infection...

It sounds like you can barely work. Is it possible for you to get a easier job
or one that’s more physical? Taking care of the bare minimums like food and
shelter are priority number one. Everything else comes second.

Therapy and meds can go a long way but you’ll still face living with a
disability.

The outlook is bleak unless you can provide for yourself and at least enjoy
eating.

I recommend cats and cspan.

------
Smushman
Keep seeing your therapist along this journey - it will help you 'take a time
out' to think about your situation and validate your progress.

1\. Break your fall.

Depression, and any 'invisible' illness, are highly distracting. Like trying
to getting an A while getting electric shocks during every class and study. It
can be done (not by me, but by some I guess) but it is really really hard.
You'll miss obvious problems, solutions, and obvious signs that act as cues at
other times. You need to turn down the voltage a bit.

First, quick fixes. These are antidepressants. They are a good temporary
measure but not more than 3 maybe 6 months. Depression kills all forward
progress, and antidepressants can release some of this pressure temporarily -
freeing you to begin moving to long term solutions. That is really all
antidepressants are good for.

2\. Find out-of-the-box effective solutions to your depression - immediately.

First, I have been helped by western herbals (St. John's Wort is proven long
term effective but takes time to get going), ayurvedic Indian herbal
treatments (start with Ashwagandha), Chinese herbs, gut related bacteria and
probiotics (strong ones like kombucha every day - not gentle 'nudges' like
yogurt).

Focus on the medicine vs the doctor/treatment. Dr visits can take a month or
more and are expensive - your health can't wait. Focus on the herbs themselves
vs visiting the ayurvedic practitioner, acupuncturist, or Chinese Herbalist.
Via the internet, I stole bits and pieces of the most effective treatments in
non-western medicine and cobbled together my own solutions.

Second, Yoga exercise routines, and add the Yoga mindfulness stuff later if
you can (but at least the exercise routines). You must do this. Yoga is proven
and will help you - but you can't stop there (and will find it hard to start
if you have not broken your fall yet). Exercise and treatment must always be
combined.

Third, mindfulness. Know you will make it through. You may not know how yet,
but you will make it. Fake it 'til you make it is a proven strategy - but not
enough alone.

3\. If you do not have the ability to share your focus with your job
(balancing your health treatment and your job) get a quick fix
(antidepressant) going right away to 'turn down the voltage'. And let whatever
happens to you job - happen. Panic and anxiety about a job you may be losing
is waste of your very precious and limited resources (you may even find your
wrong about your fears!).

Remember your solution order -

1\. Break you fall (quick fix) and turn down the voltage a little.

2\. Come up with long term solutions/strategies to turn it down a lot, and
keep it down.

3\. And finally - focus on your job last. Your good health will do much more
for your job and life than your very best but highly distracted efforts can
ever do.

Best of luck - I will be watching for your updates.

You have a chronic problem - you must treat it like one.

------
14
Good luck and I hope you continue to thrive and feel well.

------
snow_mac
Zoloft man. It has helped me so much

------
colehasson
Thank you for sharing your story

------
p4bl0
When I read stuff like this I'm so glad to live in a country (France) that
doesn't let people without any money when they're fired or have serious
medical issues. Nation-wide solidarity costs little to each person but gives a
lot to those who need it. So sad that our public unemployment and health
systems are getting destroyed piece by piece by successive governments (the
current one is particularly agressive).

~~~
fromthestart
>Nation-wide solidarity costs little to each person

Federal income tax in France is greater than 45%[1]. There's nothing cheap
about that. I much prefer the freedom of saving my own money, especially when
working in something as lucrative as tech.

1.[https://tradingeconomics.com/france/personal-income-tax-
rate](https://tradingeconomics.com/france/personal-income-tax-rate)

~~~
arcticbull
Wow, that's actually a great deal. The top marginal tax rate in the state of
California this year is roughly 65% (and that's excluding employer
contributions).

13.3% of all income (State) +

39.6% of all income (Federal) +

5.3% of all income (Federal double tax on State Tax - thanks, Donny) +

6.2% of all income (Social Security - Individual)

=====

64.4%

Then of course your employer pays another 6.2% of gross earnings on your
behalf for social security too. And of course, in tech, your employer has to
pay for your healthcare too, an average of $19,616, which also actually comes
out of your paycheck. [1] Feel free to work out what percentage of your gross
earnings that amounts to and tack that on top also. Good thing we've got the
freedom to save the remaining ~33% while people go without basic health cover
and social services.

In years I earn a lot, I'd actually be better off in Canada.

[1] [https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2018-employer-
health...](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2018-employer-health-
benefits-survey/)

~~~
rayiner
You're double counting the "Federal double tax." Also, the marginal Social
Security tax is $0, since it phases out long before you hit those marginal
rates.

That being said, the reason France can offer robust services while California
cannot, even though tech worker taxes are similar between the two countries,
is because France taxes _everyone_ that way. In France, the 41% tax bracket
(just a little lower than the top bracket of 45%) kicks in at 71,000 Euros
(about $80,000). The U.S. federal rate in that bracket is 25%. Then there is
the 20% VAT paid by even the lowest income people.

~~~
arcticbull
Yep, you're absolutely right, I did double-count the double-tax. Your comment
had me re-run the numbers, and this is what I came up with. You are correct
that Social Security goes down to $0.

Medicare contributions have no cap, and are 1.45% by both the employer and
employee and the 0.9% Obamacare surcharges on the employee only portion (until
2035) kicks in over $250,000 also. Therefore, social insurance contributes a
marginal 3.79%

So, the numbers to the best of my knowledge should have been:

13.3% of all income (State) +

39.6% of all income (Federal, including the Donny double-tax) +

2.34% of all income (Medicare, Obamacare - Employee Contributions) +

1.45% of all income (Medicare - Employer Contributions)

=====

56.69%

Then you still have to deal with the fixed portions, the $19,616 [1] in
healthcare premiums, the $7,347 you'd have paid in social security tax and the
$7,347 your employer would have paid in social security tax. [2]

[1] [https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2018-employer-
health...](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2018-employer-health-
benefits-survey/)

[2] [https://www.bizfilings.com/toolkit/research-
topics/managing-...](https://www.bizfilings.com/toolkit/research-
topics/managing-your-taxes/payroll-taxes/employers-responsibility-for-fica-
payroll-taxes)

~~~
dragonwriter
None of that is on all income; base Medicare is only on labor income, the
Medicare surtax is on either (specifically, the lesser of) labor income or net
investment income above certain thresholds, and the rest is on “normally
taxed” income (but not, e.g., long-term capital gains, or gifts and
inheritances—which, even when beyond the enormous exempt quantities, aren't
taxed as normal income for the recipient, but to the giver or estate, and in
California at a lower combined maximum state and federal rate than normal
income tax, 40% federal and no state.)

~~~
arcticbull
And NSO stock options, which is likely very relevant to this audience.

------
anon7429
CBD helped me significantly.

------
swedish_mafia
Why don’t you see a doctor, and get prescribed some meds?

~~~
geofft
That was answered in the post:

> _I 've put off finding a new therapist and psychiatrist because of the same
> catch-22 that was affecting me earlier, being depressed removing my
> motivation, but writing this post and reliving the last few months has
> reminded me that nothing good will come of continuing that._

------
_RPM
I'm glad the therapist worked for you. For me, my stance on therapy is that
it's bullshit tried and true. I was in therapy for 1 year before realizing
that I was going in there and making up problems I was having. I had 4
therapist in that time. The first 2 were actually horrible, and it was
basically a sweatshop getting you in and out.

Basically, they sit there and listen, and let you talk about things. Giving
you advice? No way.

Being an authoritative person? No. I was not able to fully accept that the
empathy therapist show is FAKE, it's not real. You're literally paying them to
sit there and listen to you.

I wasn't able to get over the fact that they don't care about you or your
life, at the end of the day it's a business.

For instance, let's say one day you lose your insurance? All of sudden your
therapist isn't going to help you anymore, etc.

It's all bullshit.

~~~
JamesBarney
I think it being a business doesn't preclude their empathy. I'm sure most
therapists care about their patients.

I care about the software projects I'm on, and really want them to succeed,
and my clients to gets lots of value out of those projects. But I'm not going
to work for them for free.

If you want to talk to someone for free there are friends, family and
acquaintances. But that comes with its own set of obligations. If every time I
saw a friend I complained about the same issues over and over again I wouldn't
have many friends.

