
Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”? - everybodyknows
She&#x27;s a recent grad with an international relations major.  Now wants to go to a local web dev boot camp, which looks to me just more-or-less legit.  Any alternative ideas?
======
biznerd
I did one.

I HIGHLY suggest vetting the placement "statistics". For me, I just read 95%
get a job, went to the open house, listened to a couple "rah rah" testimonials
and did it. It was a big mistake.

A friend of mine from the class estimated that only 30-40% of us got actual
dev jobs. The rest are either in customer service at a tech company, sales or
testing (keep in mind this is people who dropped $15k+ to do the bootcamp),
back in our old industry or in the case of one, working at Trader Joes.

I was under the impression that 95% get good jobs. If I had known only 30-40%
did I would have never done the boot camp.

How did they manipulate the numbers? I never dug deep but here are my
thoughts:

* to qualify as "actively looking" you can't have a job to support yourself. That's right you're supposed to not have an income while job searching, kinda hard when it can take more than six months. If you get a job, you get dropped from career support and your statistic gets placed in the "not actively looking" category

* "industry related jobs". If you go to a dev boot camp, you want to be a dev. You're paying $15k to do it. A customer service job at a tech startup is better than nothing but you don't have to pay $15k to do it. Likewise for sales.

As a positive point, all the females in our cohort got dev jobs, including the
only one who actually failed the class. Startups are pretty aware of the
gender discrepancy and actively looking to hire those with double x
chromosomes. Not complaining about affirmative action, just wanted to give you
as full picture as possible

~~~
eagsalazar2
Things have changed over the last few years and what was true in 2013 is no
longer true.

In 2013, the few bootcamps that existed and the fewer cohorts they each had
were much more selective and they were producing in total many fewer
candidates. The result is that bootcamp grads were very high quality (albeit
very junior) and they got snapped up quickly.

In 2017 there are bootcampers everywhere flooding the market.

So I'm not sure they are outright lying but maybe they are using data to
market their programs that is out of date.

~~~
Hydraulix989
The first two CS courses at my top university are enough to be qualified for
your entry-level junior engineer: the intro course "Programming with Java"
(recently changed to Python now), followed by the second course, Data
"Structures & Algorithms."

All the bootcamp would have to do is be similarly very selective and do the
same exact curriculum, and the people who "survive" these two weed-out courses
(you needed to score higher than half your classmates in each course to
receive a passing grade, otherwise you had to keep re-taking it) would be the
ones able to get hired with nearly 100% placement.

~~~
MegaButts
> you needed to score higher than half your classmates in each course to
> receive a passing grade

Was this actually the rule dictated by the professor/curriculum or just a rule
of thumb?

~~~
purple-again
This is common in highly ranked programs in the United States. We had the
exact same system in my accounting program which was ranked 11th in the nation
at the time.

------
cwp
I'd tell her to do some work on her own before signing up. The internet is jam
packed with courses, guides, tutorials and references for all the skills
needed for web dev, for free. Pick a tutorial and work through it. Then dream
up a really simple project—todo app, pet store, tick-tack-toe or whatever—and
build it from scratch, using the same stack.

Then with that under her belt, sign up for the boot camp. The advantages of
this approach are:

    
    
      - she'll find out if this is something she really wants to do before plunking down thousands of dollars
      - with a bit of background knowledge, she'll be better able to absorb what's being taught at the bootcamp
      - she'll have a better idea of what she wants to specialize in and can select the right boot camp for her
    

Also, find the community she wants to join. There are a gazillion places where
web devs hang out online and talk shop. While doing her prep work she should
seek out the places appropriate to the stack she's chosen and lurk. Stay
engaged through the bootcamp and during her job search afterward.

Finally, pay attention to open source. Not a lot of professions do their work
out in the open like that, so take the opportunity to see how the sausage is
made! Find the open source projects that these communities contribute to, and
watch them do it. Follow the discussions on mailing lists, Github issues and
pull requests. Look at the code and try to understand the criticism arguments.
Ask questions. People are shockingly willing to help newbies who are trying to
understand.

The bottom line is, there is real value in getting an expert to teach her how
to code, but the more work she puts in herself, before, during and after the
bootcamp the more she'll get out of it. If she's looking to pay $15K and get a
high-paying job in exchange, she'll just waste the money.

------
et-al
Which one?

Key things are:

\- you get out what you put in. attending a boot camp is not a guarantee
you'll land well-paying job. you have to demonstrate to a new employer you've
mastered the skills to help their company

\- depending on the bootcamp, it will take 8-10 hours a day. your social life
aside from the days off will be shot. and the days off are spent doing laundry
and playing catch-up on life

\- don't neglect your fitness. since you're inside 8-10 hours a day, go to a
gym and sweat for balance. otherwise you might suffer from burnout

\- save up for at least 3 months of joblessness after the bootcamp while you
look for work

\- ask the bootcamp if they do interview prep. while it's cheating the system
in some ways, it's extremely helpful for people who haven't been through the
interview process. if you don't think well on your feet, or suffer test
anxiety, this may be an issue

\- lastly, if she hasn't done any programming at all, it'd be prudent to sign
up for a local junior college course, or udemy to see if she actually likes
doing it. i have a friend who talks all day about joining a coding school,
took a python course, and realized it's not for him. it's better than
accumulating more educational debt

------
ramses0
Before going through a dev-bootcamp, I recommend (especially if you're a coder
already) to get her through Learn Python The Hard Way.

[https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/](https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/)

Best case it'll take less than a month (2 exercises per day, 52 exercises), is
basically free, and if she's happy with everything at the end of it, she'll be
FAR more prepared to jump feet-first into a dev bootcamp.

I compare learning to program to learning a language. 99hrs of having French
slapped across your face won't make you a native French speaker, it's a long
road to proficiency and mastery. Neither will 99hrs of Programming make you a
native "Programmer".

However I'd pick someone who went through that 99hr drill over most people who
hadn't even started.

~~~
trymas
I could not resist...

but do you want to confuse her with python2 vs python3? When python2 should be
out of the question, even if it's default on macOS. Though to be fair the
difference should be learned, but it shouldn't be promoted to learn python2
for beginners. It will just confuse them. Even though many years have passed,
but I think soon many libraries and frameworks will not support python2 at all
(e.g. Django's next version will not), any new code I write - I write it in
python3 and never think about python2.

The LPTHW is built for beginners in a sense, that it's easy to read and
follow, though author is extremely __butthurt__[0] against python3 [1]. I
guess it's the authors _shtick_ to be extremely opinionated, to a degree of
incoherent blabber [1].

[0] sorry for my language

[1]
[https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/nopython3.html](https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/nopython3.html)

P.S. Though "Appendix A: Command Line Crash Course"[2] is probably one of the
best promotions and intros into CLI .. and that is very useful to learn,
instead of locking yourself as a beginner into some IDE.

[2]
[https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/appendixa.html](https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/appendixa.html)

~~~
nip
Your remarks are extremely sound. The good news is that LPTHW is now Python
3[1] :)

[1]
[https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/](https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/)

~~~
trymas
That's good news. Though it's still not complete

Before in examples there were stuff like this:

    
    
        $ python -V
        Python 2.5.x

------
mikekchar
We've hired a few people from bootcamps. I admit that I was a bit skeptical
going in, but I am very happy with everyone we have hired from that direction.

There is nothing in CS that you can't learn on your own and/or on the job. You
do not need a school to teach you. Having said that, you need to _want_ to
learn this stuff and it is a _long_ road. Decades after I graduated, I'm still
learning new things (especially math -- since I sucked at it in school). So my
first piece of advice: Realise that after a boot camp you will not know
enough, nor have enough experience to really be qualified to do the job.
Anybody who picks you up is taking a chance that you will grow into the job.
Attitude is by far your biggest selling point.

If you go in with a hunger for learning and infectious enthusiasm, you will be
a benefit to your team, even while being under qualified. If you go in
thinking, "I don't really know if I want to do this, but it seems like an easy
job that pays well", just stop now. I really can't stress that enough. Don't
pay thousands of dollars to go to a boot camp to see if you want to do this
stuff. Like I said, you can boot your own camp trivially. Computer + Internet
+ passion for learning will get you there. A good boot camp can really help
you focus and point you to efficient ways of learning, but it can't give you
the drive you need to succeed. My second piece of advice is to experiment
first.

Finally, all of the people we have hired from bootcamps have had experience in
other industries. Let me put it bluntly: They know how to show up to work
every day and put in a full day's work. They know how to show up to meetings
on time and pay attention. They know how to deal with difficult political
situations. They know how to avoid being hung over on a weekday. Finally, they
have experience being in a job that they hate and they have spent considerable
amount of time and effort understanding what they want from a career.

My final advice: Don't graduate from school and go straight to a boot camp,
unless you know for sure that you missed the boat and are desperate to be a
programmer. Get some experience in the job world. Save some money. Think
critically about what you want from your career. Then if you still want to
make the jump, go ahead. Like I said, computers and the internet are
everywhere these days, so it's not going to stop you from learning on your
own.

------
aspencer8111
I wouldn't be discouraging here or 'looking for alternatives'. I'd be
congratulating her on entering a field with a low supply and high demand for
talent. This industry pays very well and we need more female developers. So
why would this be a bad choice? (rhetorical question - actually this may be a
horrible choice, but keep reading)

I completed an online coding bootcamp about 5 years ago and got a job almost
immediately afterwards. I've since become a Lead Dev for a local SaaS company,
a mentor at that same school I graduated from, and a part time curriculum
contributor.

This level of skepticism towards coding bootcamps is fair. I've seen some
horror stories. But here is the thing: All failures involving more than 2
parties are usually the fault of both parties. Here is what I mean:

I'm currently mentoring about 5 students. Out of those 5, 4 are doing
incredibly well. They are picking up the concepts, putting them into practice,
and showing true growth. 1 of them is struggling hard. What is the difference?
Well, in my opinion the difference is motivation. The 1 that is struggling did
well his first few months, but when it got hard, he just wanted to start
applying for jobs with what little he had learned. He didn't want to put in
the work to finish his education. He was solely focused on the $$$ and not the
thrill of solving problems with code.

So how could she decide if she will actually enjoy learning to code vs become
someone that is only excited b/c of the money? Easy - try the free/cheap stuff
first:

1\. Codecademy.com 2\. Codeschool.com 3\. Lynda.com 4\.
Learn_____TheHardWay.com

The list goes on for a while. Tell her to sign up for one or two of the
courses here and build something from start to finish. Nothing major. A todo
list webapp, simple blog, or the like will do.

Then ask here: "Can you see yourself doing this 8 hours per day/5 days per
week? If she can give you an honest 'yes', then offer her all the support you
can give. If she hesitates, have her do more of the cheap/free stuff till it
is clear. If it is a no, then it is a no.

Hope this helps. Sorry for the wall of text.

------
yahyaheee
If she wants to be a software engineer, tell her to teach herself. I think the
reason why many of the graduates don't get jobs is because Tech is really
hard, and almost all of it you have to figure out yourself to be a good
engineer. A lot of the boot camp attendees are the type that need to be
taught, it actually looks better if you teach yourself. It shows your
independence and drive, which are very hirable qualities in Tech. That said a
good mentor can go a long way too (there are plenty of those for free as well)
:)

~~~
scrapcode
I've been developing for 12+ years in many different languages & frameworks. I
don't code much anymore due to having to support myself financially, but I
certainly didn't find that anyone was impressed with the fact that I taught
myself. I never got an offer and likewise ended up choosing the boring but
well paying supervisor position in an unrelated field.

~~~
yahyaheee
I think that probably has more to do with how you market yourself. Me and two
of my friends all taught ourselves and all of us work on major top level
projects now only about 3 years later. I think my point is that there is a
type of person that makes a really good software engineer and those types of
people typically don't need a coding bootcamp. If you market yourself as
having found your passion and built a lot of awesome stuff on your own I
guarantee that you will have work.

------
ben_jones
I just want to point out that anyone giving advice on this issue, as with
anything else, will have their own personal biases. For example HN has a high
percentage of startups and "bleeding edge" tech companies which may value
skillsets and credentials differently then say a midwest enterprise software
company. If your cousin needs advice gaining entry to midwest enterprise
companies, it may be more valuable to pose this question locally or else risk
giving the wrong advice to your cousin.

------
fecak
My answer would depend on several factors.

Has she ever tried coding, and if so does she see herself enjoying it as
something she'd be doing several hours a day?

What is her reason for an interest in programming? Is it an interest in tech,
solving big problems with tech, money, something else?

Would she be OK knowing that the job search for a bootcamp grad with no prior
coding experience may be rather challenging (many grads go to work for the
bootcamp itself, which is mutually beneficial as it boost placement stats
while also giving the grad a job)?

How is her financial situation? Can she absorb a hit?

Is she incredibly bright and dedicated to the point of potentially being able
to enter the field based on n months of self-directed education for free
(MOOCs, online tutorials, videos, books, etc)?

The question is a bit more complex than it seems.

------
kwang88
My company has hired several coding boot camp alumni; some directly from
bootcamps, some after a coding bootcamp + some years of work as a dev. We've
had good results and most of the grads I know have had positive experiences.

It's important to note that coding bootcamps are not created remotely equally
-- some have stringent application requirements, whereas many are essentially
scams / chop shops. I strongly caution against the latter.

In particular, at least one bootcamp that I know of only charges tuition after
you get a job as a software engineer, and charges a % of your first year's
salary. It's a really great way to align incentives between the bootcamp,
students, and employers and I'm a particular fan of this program.

~~~
everybodyknows
I'd be grateful for specific pointers on vetting the camps. The one in
question is legally an LLC, with no industry sponsors, but some association
with a local religious college. Interested to see your positive view on the
percent of salary tuition arrangement. There are at least two such camps: in
SF, and in Seattle.

~~~
kwang88
Have seen good results from App Academy (in NYC in particular) - they follow
the business model that I mentioned above. I don't know the details of all the
bootcamp alums on my team, and am also unfamiliar with the tuition structures
of different bootcamps. My info is also about 2 years out of date.

IMO these bootcamps are producing a basically undifferentiated product
curriculum-wise (which, by the way can be learned via self-teaching on the
internet). Only a few have real brand recognition. Drive, curiosity, raw
horsepower, etc are a lot more important.

For specific pointers: your cousin should speak to as many recent alumni of
various programs as she can to ensure that she has a legit program on her
hands. Speaking with hiring managers is a good bet as well; "I've never heard
of that place" is bad; "That place is a scam" is worse. She should also ask
what the pass/fail rate is for students in the program. High graduation rate +
upfront payment is arguably bad (shows they're incentivized to just get you
out the door).

Best of luck!

------
ravenstine
Dev Bootcamp circa 2013 alumnus here.

I can't speak for how bootcamps are now, or the state in which DBC exists in
2017, but I can say that my cohort(s) were made up of lots of men and women
and people ranging from border-line genius level to those with no programming
experience. Those who came out and landed careers were the same individuals
who had the drive and the passion, plain & simple. A person looking to be
handed knowledge on a silver platter, eventually leading to a golden key to
land a job, will be sadly mistaken no matter what kind of school they go to.

As others have said, it would be good for her to start learning to program on
her own so she can see if she actually has any interest. It will sound cruel
for me to say this but, if she hasn't already taken the initiative herself,
the chances are low that she's cut out for it. Note that what I said just now
is strictly my opinion. It certainly doesn't mean it's too late for her to
begin now, but the drive is super important. This is coming from someone who
went into a field knowing very little about it but expecting that passing the
courses was going to land them a high-paying job. I switched to programming
because I was forced to look in my heart and decide whether or not I was going
to struggle to bestow bad art on to the world(as if there isn't too much
already) for some short-lived glory. Plus I was already programming and
already had the drive; I just needed reality and some good people to give me a
good kick in the right direction for me.

Determining the legitimacy of a boot camp is difficult. I don't know that you
really can. But what I got out of my boot camp was not so much an education
but the space and the resources to accelerate my process into taking a full
dive into web development, Agile, etc. On a technical level, there's almost
nothing that a boot camp does that you can't get out of an online course.
Heck, you could form your own "boot camp" with a Meetup group and spend maybe
1/100 the amount you'd spend on a boot camp tuition. A person has to go into a
boot camp expecting a space, resources, and some leadership, rather than a
concrete curriculum. At the end of the day, you can work for a company and not
even include your education on your resume so long as the work that you have
done stands out.

------
pfarnsworth
Someone I know graduated from Hackbright, the bootcamp for women that has a
decent reputation but also fairly expensive. It's been a couple of years and
she hasn't gotten a programming job, I don't even mention it anymore.

So your mileage might vary. I'm deeply skeptical of anyone from a bootcamp, to
be honest. I think if you can really learn something and get your foot int the
door with a small startup, then it opens the doors, but it's also hard without
signficant amount of dedication.

~~~
johns
In defense of Hackbright, I have hired multiple grads from there and had we
had the room, hired more great candidates we talked to and all were great.
Consistently produced good candidates. Just like any class though, there's
going to be a distribution in results.

------
t4blox
Why do you feel the need to stop her from going? She's not going to become a
master at computers, but maybe it will spark an interest in the field. It
seems like this is always the case with people either forcing coding onto
people or trying to persuade people to not even touch a computer. Just let
people do what they want.

------
j45
For beginners, it's critical to learn concepts of software development instead
of the syntax memorization and regurgitation that seems popular to collect
like scout badges. The fewer syntaxes one has to learn in the beginning, to do
the most, the better. To keep a list to the minimum, I'd probably start with
HTML, a bit of CSS, and then go to Javascript to teach web and then mobile
development.

I am not a day to day js framework/backend guy.

~~~
everybodyknows
I hear you on that -- I've been looking for a path that starts with the best-
structured languages, as vehicles for learning the more powerful concepts:
static vs dynamic typing et al. So, Golang, Python, or Typescript. School in
question is a bit behind the curve -- "PHP/MySQL".

~~~
j45
PHP/MySQL is fine to learn to build web apps too. The problem is when you have
to learn 30 different things in some languages to create your own stack (Ruby,
node, etc) for beginners.

------
OJFord
> _Any alternative ideas?_

From the comments so far, I think there's some confusion about what you mean
by this.

Are you trying to dissuade her? Motivate her? You're neutral, but asking for
suggestions of things she might do to satiate coding desires other than a
'boot camp'?

~~~
everybodyknows
A few months previous I suggested online self-instruction, but didn't hear
back on the idea. Perhaps some people prefer the social structure of a
classroom for learning.

------
hoodoof
Why do you need alternative ideas? You could just let her go to what she wants
to. We technology people seem to have this built in need to get people to try
other things than what they want to do. It's a form of controlling behaviour.

~~~
yorwba
Would you say the same if she wanted to go to an expensive acting workshop
that promises she will land a job with Hollywood in just 12 weeks? (And that
might not even be a lie, since someone needs to be the extra that gets shot in
the first 5 seconds.)

Not saying all or even most coding boot camps are like that, but based on my
reading of HN submissions, some definitely do overpromise and underdeliver.

Finding potentially more fitting ways of getting into the field could simply
be helping out.

~~~
fuzzyninja
A sincere question that I have often: what if the jobs these people land (and
that many that we here do) are _not_ Hollywoodian at all? What if that does
indicate that a lot of the things we can do can be done by someone with this
level of experience and aptitude?

Related: [https://www.wired.com/2017/02/programming-is-the-new-blue-
co...](https://www.wired.com/2017/02/programming-is-the-new-blue-collar-job/)

------
whytaka
Try pyschools.com or codeschool.com and see how much she gets it on her own. I
truly believe being a programmer is a third logical intuition another third
resourcefulness, and lastly discipline. She has to be able to demonstrate them
all and the websites I pointed to (especially the former) will certainly test
her.

------
StClaire
A friend of mine used to teach at one of those programs. He quit because he
got sick of parroting placement numbers he knew were fraudulent.

The ones who got good jobs were good applicants. They would have gotten the
Dev job anyway. The ones who weren't strong got swept under the rug.

Your cousin might do better taking a year of CS classes and working on outside
projects

------
campythrowaway
She should not go in cold. She should work through "Learn Python the Hard Way"
or Chris Pine's Learn to Program first, at least, before committing to
something like this. I did a bootcamp some time ago. Everyone who came in
completely cold failed the program. Standards now might be such that she
survives the program, but she will be unhirable. If it's a finishing school
after putting in much work on her own, then maybe it makes sense. Assume every
number you see related to job placement to be fraudulent at some level.
Getting a job coming out is likely to be difficult - the market is saturated
with bootcamp grads. All that being said, if she finds out she really, really
likes programming before starting the bootcamp, puts in months of work
beforehand, and is willing to put in thousands of hours outside of work in the
years that follow, then go for it.

~~~
ghaff
No familiarity with bootcamps specifically but, even with more traditional CS
degree programs, this seems to be good advice. I don't program professionally
but have done some on the side for a long time.

Even checking out some of the "Intro to Programming" MOOCs from better
institutions, it was pretty obvious to me that I'd have been utterly
overwhelmed going into any of these cold as a student. If even a text editor
or a command line is a new experience, there's just too much foundational
knowledge/experience that has to be gained to move forward with what you're
actually supposed to be learning.

(I know there have been efforts at places like CMU to teach intro courses that
are actually real intro courses.)

------
mceoin
(Foreword: I went through a bootcamp, had a positive experience).

The only reason not to go through a bootcamp, presuming it is reputable, is
price sensitivity. They offer better value than a college degree (salary offer
wise, both for technical and non-technical roles in tech industry), accelerate
the pace of early-stage learning, and create healthy habits that are distinct
to programming (e.g. tests, debugging, pseudo-code).

Long list of positive reasons here, as long as mindset going in isn't "I'm
going to be a developer in 9 weeks" (true only on the loosest definition of
the word).

------
smilesnd
Mattering your location and whats around I would advise meetups and/or
hackerspaces. It would give your cousin a good feel for the local environment.
As well she might meet some people that try the boot camp out. If she does do
the boot camp I would advise her to do some self study before hand. These boot
camps try to cram as much info they can into a short period of time. She would
probably get more out of the boot camp if she tries to learn coding on her own
first. There is a ton of free resources she can try before hand.

------
bokglobule
Actually I think this self-learning approach is a great example of what it
takes to be a great developer regardless of background (or formal training).

[http://signaltower.co/jennifer-dewalt/](http://signaltower.co/jennifer-
dewalt/)

She built one project each day for 180 days learning a bit more each day. She
chronicled her mistakes and successes. HN had a post on it at the time and the
majority of developers that responded were very supportive.

------
thisisforyou
Taking for granted most of the other answers here ('make sure she has tried
and likes coding' et c.): Have her look up reviews of the program on
[https://www.coursereport.com/](https://www.coursereport.com/) and
www.switchup.org. Have her visit local meetups and conferences, there will
surely be students/grads there that she can talk to and can get eyewitness
reports from. Have her ask around to disinterested third parties that have had
contact with the program and see what their appraisal of the program is. Have
her contact the program and see if they will provide contacts to grads that
she can talk to (while they may be biased, a 'yes' is much better that a
'no'). (Full disclosure: I went to a bootcamp and got a good job very soon
afterwards which I have had for a year. True, some programs are shady, but
these seem to shut down quickly. A bit of research seems like all that needs
to be done to make a decision and if it works for her there is no reason to
worry.)

------
vonklaus
I did one and had a bad experience; I still think they are worthwhile.

Much like colleges the rigor varies a lot BUT unlike colleges you're class
will have a massive impact on your educatoion.

I studied a lot before I went in, it is highly recommended. Some other
students struggled because they did not do much prep. Some students were
annoyingly inquisitive and volunteered off-topic stuff frequently, eating into
class time.

Have a capstone project or goal in mind when going in and try to do some pared
down version for a final project(nearly all I have researched have several
projects).

If you (op) can, help her get familiar w/ a dev environment. Explain things in
depth and assume little. I was learning the _absolute_ basics and someone
introduced me to git, rails, terminal, scaffolding and ruby over a 10min
convo. Obviously, it is great to dive in, but finding out what is important
and how things work is important. Show her text editors, basic command line,
git ect. Resources like hacker news, stack overflow, and maybe shell into an
AWS instance.

I think they can be great, but they require a lot of prep, and a lot of
research

------
vmorgulis
To try FreeCodeCamp first:

[https://www.freecodecamp.com/](https://www.freecodecamp.com/)

------
kapauldo
Boot camp is a good supplement to college, not an alternative, so tell her to
work hard and have fun, and ask lots of questions.

------
atsaloli
Freecodecamp.com is free if price is an issue.

~~~
oddlyaromatic
Really found the community and structure of freeCodeCamp to be amazing for me
to make progress. The actual teaching is not very detailed- they show you a
little but then intend that you learn to Google and use the documentation to
find stuff out. I recommend having some other source of learning in parallel
with FCC. Can also be free.

------
contingencies
Great idea. Communicating about systems and their properties is a key
programming skill, which is more likely to be gained learning in a social
environment such as a web dev boot camp than solo. Success will require long
solo hours, but I don't think social learning is ever a bad idea... especially
when changing careers.

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watmough
Try looking at the consultancy end of tech. Typically, if they like your face
and grades, they'll put you though an internal bootcamp, or send you
somewhere, at no cost to you. Starting salary should be maybe $70k+ and up for
a new grad.

This is a much better idea than dumping money into a bootcamp.

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pcr0
I would advise trying free/cheap lessons first. E.g. freecodecamp, Lynda,
udemy, CS50x, etc.

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joshmn
[https://www.railstutorial.org/](https://www.railstutorial.org/) it's free _,
self-paced, with great instruction and lots of lectures /discussion scattered
throughout the internet.

_ support hartl :)

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SN76477
Spend 80 hours on Lynda.com first. Then decide if coding is really where you
want to be.

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typetypetype
Tell her she should look at it as a way to beef up the "skills" part of her
resume and also help her build a personal portfolio. She will not be handed a
job upon finishing, but will have a better resume.

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soneca
I would say: go for it! Why not? I don't actually get what's the doubt.

~~~
seattle_spring
"Why not?"

Well, I might start at the $10-$15k price tag.

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jtcond13
I recommend John Guttag's _Intro to Computation and Programming Using Python_
to people interested in starting to code, as the accompanying video lectures
are available on MIT OCW and the book itself is enjoyable to read. That book
(+ the Django tutorial) might be a good way to get started before doing a boot
camp.

As others have pointed out, there are other ways to learn the material, but it
may be that the 'career day' activities, etc. are worth the price of tuition.

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brianwawok
Read a coding book first, see if she has a nack?

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satysin
Spend £10 on a Udemy (or wherever) course and see how she likes that. If she
picks things up and enjoys it then maybe the boot camp will be a good idea or
maybe she finds she can do it herself or maybe she finds she hates it all.

For £10 you can't really complain whatever the outcome IMHO.

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alistproducer2
Why not just apply to a master's program? She can probably get a dev job while
enrolled. At least then she'll get a better signaling artifact than a boot
camp certificate and probably spend less doing it.

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mping
Grit your teeth and don't give up. If the person is a she, just get a hard
skin, don't let anything affect her resolve until she knows for sure if she
wants to code or not.

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jasonthevillain
Cool! I usually suggest people pick up a book and try learning enough to build
something simple first so they get a feel for what's involved and whether they
like it.

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convolvatron
tell her to get a real job - that she can count on. sous chef. turbine
maintenance mechanic. accountant.

~~~
marak830
As a chef, please only people with passion, we have enough mediocre chef's,
and really the pay is shit.

------
throwme_1980
waste of money, invest in either getting a new gear(high-end laptop, licenses
etc...) or a recognised qualification or a cert

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OJFord
> _As a positive point, all the females in our cohort got dev jobs, including
> the only one who actually failed the class. Startups are pretty aware of the
> gender discrepancy and actively looking to hire those with double x
> chromosomes. Not complaining about affirmative action, just wanted to give
> you as full picture as possible_

You _should_ be complaining! _Especially_ given the rest of your story.

This kind of thing is such bull shit.

Before you down-vote me: a man passed and now works at Trader Joe's; a woman
failed and got a software engineering role.

Reverse those genders, and if you're outraged, have a think about whether you
should still be down-voting me.

~~~
jen729w
It's called "positive discrimination" for a reason. We're positively
discriminating _to the benefit_ of women (or minorities, or whomever) now, to
make up for the decades of negative discrimination that these groups have
suffered.

Don't think it's fair? Interesting feeling, eh. Not very nice, eh. Be glad you
haven't suffered it for literally your entire life.

~~~
OJFord
> _Be glad you haven 't suffered it for literally your entire life._

I am. I'm young enough, though, that I'm acutely aware that the roles are
going to be completely reversed for men not that much younger.

I've been unable to attend technical talks at my university that sounded
interesting, because they're 'women-only'. There are exclusive events, clubs,
networking for women - but of course there aren't equivalents for men!
Disassociate yourself from the poor fool who dare suggest such a horrid thing!

I'm all for equality, but manifestly not for 'positive discrimination'. At
some point, the tables will turn, and the generation of men below me will
perhaps have this feeling of having 'suffered it for literally [their] entire
life', and will want to positively discriminate back.

Or, we could just consider people on their merits, rather than their gender.
Y'know, what women say they want?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
My car pulls to the right slightly, I turn the steering wheel slightly to the
left to adjust. We do that in society, folks start to complain. I have to
suspect they're not out to fix society, but rather to preserve their good
position in it.

~~~
slededit
Or instead of a band-aide solution you could just get an alignment and solve
the underlying issue.

