
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’ - jboynyc
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html
======
grk
I used to live in Tingbjerg, and could witness firsthand how the immigrants
abused the welfare there. The laws may seem harsh, but on the other side you
have people who take pride in cheating the social security system.

~~~
sgift
How many, how often? How do you know they abused it? Anecdote, data and so on.

------
olau
The "ghetto" lists have been a thing for a number of years now in Denmark.

There used to be a couple of areas in the city where I live, in cheaper
community housing like this

[https://www.alabubolig.dk/S%c3%b8g-bolig/Afdelinger.aspx?mod...](https://www.alabubolig.dk/S%c3%b8g-bolig/Afdelinger.aspx?moduleAction=displayDepartment&departmentNo=25&companyNo=99)

This was perceived as a huge problem for the housing associations renting out
the apartments, so they've been doing a bunch of different things, including
hiring social workers, courses to try to get people in a job, networks, giving
the buildings a serious makeover destroying some and building new in an effort
to get a better mix of low-rent and high-rent inhabitants. But also getting
permission to decline new renters on welfare payments.

In the end, all housing associations where I live managed to get off the
ghetto lists, so aren't affected by this new law.

I think the new law is probably more about signaling a hardliner attitude than
actually solving problems.

On the other hand, no doubt people gathering in small closely-knit enclaves
ends up being a problem for many of those living there. In a nutshell, if you
need a job, networking with people who don't have one doesn't help.

~~~
Rjevski
How much is it actually a problem as far as crime is concerned? I know some
countries where it's really bad but haven't heard of this issue in Denmark so
can't comment.

~~~
bausshf
Crime is lowering actually, so I guess it's less concerning than it was say 10
years ago.

------
jcrei
Ok, I don't want to go down the road of "this is backwards and shouldn't be
happening in Denmark" and I'm already tired of comments saying "it's about
time, wish they did that in my country"...

So I'm asking the smart people of HN. What could be good solutions for the
problem they are trying to fix?

Children of families that come from other countries don't speak the language
when they enrol in 1st grade.

~~~
lgbr
Create a culture of migration. The United States and Canada are examples of
countries where integration is wonderfully successful [1][2][3]. New citizens
to the United States and Canada are welcomed in huge stadiums adorned with
flags, families celebrate by making signs, and most everyone would agree that
a new citizen is just as much a member of the country as any native born
person. Attitudes among native born persons really make a difference, where
even the United States' fairly conservative Republican party touts its
immigrant supporters at their conventions.

Leaders in Europe have recognized the need for this attitude in the past, but
they've acknowledged that it hasn't quite worked out [4][5]. Making the
transition from a country with very long family lineages just requires a lot
more convincing of the local population.

1:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/assimil...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/assimilation-
nation/309518/) 2: [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-near-
to...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-near-top-in-
integrating-immigrants-survey-says/article568517/) 3:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/business/international/fo...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/business/international/for-
immigrants-america-is-still-more-welcoming-than-europe.html) 4:
[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-12371994](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-
politics-12371994) 5: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-
merkel-...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-
german-multiculturalism-failed)

~~~
Rjevski
> most everyone would agree that a new citizen is just as much a member of the
> country as any native born person

This is already the case in Europe though; if anything, the
racism/discrimination situation seems better than the US, since you don't have
to fear for your life if you're black and see a cop.

I'm not sure there is a "nice" solution when some people immigrate for the
sole reason of freeloading on the welfare system. I've noticed that in France
where some people do not even wish to integrate (the tools are there if you
want it), and prefer to stay within their community, relying either on
welfare, or will often transition to living off crime (drugs, etc).

~~~
goletcho
>> have to fear for your life if you're black and see a cop.

I am not sure black people in France are not afraid of police. If you exclude
ugly episodes like this one:

[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/french-
polic...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/french-police-
officer-paris-charged-rape-22-year-old-black-man-bruno-le-roux-aulnay-sous-
bois-a7565601.html)

Being black nevertheless means that police stops you very often, speaks at you
with some rudness ("tutoiement") and police in general is white and close to
far-right mindsets:

[https://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=...](https://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liberation.fr%2Fdirect%2Felement%2Fplus-
de-50-des-policiers-et-militaires-ont-vote-fn-en-2015_28175%2F&edit-text=)

~~~
lord_ring_111
With all due respect blacks are afraid even in their own native land of
africa, and similarly muslim in many muslim countries. That along with
economical betterment is one of the key reasons why ppl immigrate in first
place.

------
tyfon
I live in Norway and we have similar problems with some immigrant children
starting in the regular school without speaking Norwegian. It drains resources
and takes away from the children that has learned to speak the language.

Denmark and Norway is quite similar and it's extremely common to have the
children in daycare while both parents work. This is common across the board
and low-income families get this for free (at least here).

Daycare is a good place to learn the language and obligatory daycare could be
a solution to this.

HOWEVER, I am very disturbed by the statement that they will be forced through
religious practices. In Norway, all religious activitys in daycare / school
are optional. My children are not participating in these things since we are
atheist, so are many others due to various reasons.

I hope that the article is misrepresenting this and that is the same way in
Denmark. Maybe some Danes can enlighten us.

~~~
nkobber
I just quickly read through the proposal
([https://www.regeringen.dk/media/4937/publikation_%C3%A9t-dan...](https://www.regeringen.dk/media/4937/publikation_%C3%A9t-danmark-
uden-parallelsamfund.pdf))

I do not see religion mentioned

~~~
tyfon
The article is wrong then:

"or mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of
Christmas and Easter"

Not too surprising, I think Denmark has religious freedom specified in their
constitution as do Norway.

~~~
Rjevski
Wouldn't that be considered general culture though, considering most people in
that country still celebrate those holidays?

You can not believe in that particular religion, but still it probably
wouldn't hurt anyone knowing the reasons & beliefs behind those particular
days.

------
Rjevski
It was about time, but I am not sure the situation in Denmark is bad enough to
warrant this - I wish other countries had this though, like France where the
complete rejection & hatred of French values & culture by "ghetto" residents
is quite worrying.

------
RestlessMind
This law makes sense to me (and I say that as an immigrant myself).

Immigrants are flocking to Denmark because it is a stable, prosperous society
with generous benefits. But that stability and prosperity wasn't conjured up
from thin air. It was built by the Danes for a homogenous group of people. If
you want to join them, I find it perfectly reasonable for Danes to demand
assimilation into Danish culture.

If you have problems with that, then don't go to Denmark. But it is wrong to
fail at building your own country, seeking refuge in a better place and yet
insisting on playing by your own rules in the new place.

------
trextrex
This reminds me of other similar attempts that have happened in the past to
help "assimilation" and "integration":

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations)

------
onetimemanytime
In ghettos they see less need to learn the local language, as everyone speaks
their own language and all services are provided without needing to learn
much.

Considering that immigrants chose to go to x country, I see no racism in
making them integrate, otherwise that country will become like the old one
pretty soon. Now jailing parents for "forcing" kids to visit the old country
and other measures are out of line and most likely not needed. Just learn the
local language, go to school and learn /abide by the values. Or else...this
country is the wrong match for you. Try another country or go back to the old
one.

~~~
AstralStorm
The ghetto issue is separate and the only solution seems to be to force
resettle people. Immigrants gravitate towards cheap housing and people
speaking the same tongue which makes integration harder. You could skip this
issue by skipping a generation of course.

------
onyva
As an Israeli who had gone through an education system almost exclusively
dedicated the history of Eastern European Jews and the holaucaust, I think
it’s wonderful that we can now have real time and in color footage documenting
how a so called “enlightened” and “advanced” society, pigs out and turns into
brainless pack of animals that follows orders.

I would personally would like to see Israel’s prime minister going to Denmark
to protest, the way he did in Poland.

------
pjc50
"Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their
families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory
instruction in “Danish values,”

I can't see how the first half of that isn't a violation of ECHR Article 8.

~~~
onetimemanytime
_> >"I can't see how the first half of that isn't a violation of ECHR Article
8. "_

The law says ..."except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary
in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety
or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or
crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the
rights and freedoms of others."

Otherwise I can decide not to school my children.

~~~
pjc50
It looks like this is subject to the decision in _Wunderlich v Germany_ which
appears to be ongoing; I had no idea that homeschooling was illegal in
Germany, it's perfectly legal in the UK provided that the parents provide
adequate education.

~~~
onetimemanytime
_> >it's perfectly legal in the UK provided that the parents provide adequate
education._

and "adequate" is the key word. The letter and the spirit of the law makes it
clear that the state has a very legit interest in educating people--including
and maybe, especially, immigrants.

------
mirimir
Well, in contrast: [https://hechingerreport.org/california-voters-poised-gut-
eng...](https://hechingerreport.org/california-voters-poised-gut-english-
instruction-law/)

------
aibrahem
As an immigrant from a Muslim majority country into a European country, I find
this approach very troubling.

I completely agree that most of the immigrants have a lot of trouble
integrating into the host countries but I believe it’s as much as a problem of
the hosting culture as it is the of the immigrants coming in.

It’s not just the Muslims, though they might be the most pronounced case (just
because the sheer number of immigrants), immigrants from India, China, and
even Eastern Europe face similar issues.

Anytime there is going to be a mass immigration to a specific place there is
going to be a concentration of immigrant communities in certain places, it
happened with the Irish and Italians in the US, and still happening with a lot
of different areas in America (Michigan is one of the heaviest populated areas
by Christian Arabs). The reason being is that when you first immigrate to a
new place it’s a lot easier to stick to the people you know and share
behaviors with than to go out and make a new social circle.

However, the culture of the host society plays a big role in the acceptance of
foreigners, for example, people in the US and Canada are usually a perceived
to be lot friendlier than most typical Western Europeans, it’s a lot easier to
chit-chat with an American than to a Dutch, German, or French person..., It is
also very easy to get to know people in the US, meanwhile unless you’ve really
gotten to know each other it’s very difficult to get close to a typical
European. Norwegians usually joke that if two people get on the bus one of
them is going to set at the front and the other all the way in the back.

Another culture tidbit that could contribute to this is that conformity plays
a very huge part in the European culture, and they just confirm to a very
different set of values than the ones where these immigrants are coming from,
find someone walking naked down the street, that’s completely normal but
finding a women wearing burqa on a beach and suddenly a lot of heads are
turning. Although this might also happen in the US but with the American
stress on individualism it’s always reassuring that it’s OK to be who you are,
rather than the typical European mindset of why don’t you just take it off and
be like everyone else.

Also The Hollywood effect, immigrants coming to America usually have a base
understanding of what to expect coming in from watching movies, TV shows or
even the news and are usually touched in one way or another by the American
culture, meanwhile it’s very difficult to understand the culture subtleties
when you don’t understand the language and haven’t been exposed to this
culture before and add that to the stress on conformity as mentioned before
and very quickly you become an outcast in your social circle.

My point is that brute forcing people to integrate is simply the incorrect
approach to solve this issue, culture intricacies needs to be studied and
incompatibilities with the immigrant and host culture needs to be addressed to
reach an effective solution, otherwise what you’ll have is a very angry
socially inept minority that could sing Jingle bells.

~~~
drukenemo
This is the best comment I've read here so far, and interesting to learn
you're also a Muslim. You're clearly very well educated too.

I do have concerns though in relation to political Islam. Watching some videos
hearing from "the horses mouth", I find troublesome to expect any possible
integration from the many millions of Muslims already living in the EU. As the
following video shows, it's the common Muslim who thinks like what the Western
only attributes to the radical Muslim.

I'd like to hear your comments about the contents of this video please
[https://youtu.be/fhBvzliBey4?t=1m30s](https://youtu.be/fhBvzliBey4?t=1m30s)

------
classicsnoot
I wonder how the Danish immigrants in Lebanon are fairing under the government
and society in place.

~~~
pjc50
The few Danes in Lebanon are almost certainly doing alright. It's the refugees
in Lebanon that aren't; there's _1.5 million_ Syrian refugees there, which is
causing similar social and economic tensions on a much larger scale.

(The headline article mentions that several of those interviewed are refugees,
presumably from the previous civil war in Lebanon.)

~~~
classicsnoot
I posted that comment to be snarky, but your earnest response has compelled me
to elaborate on the motivation behind the crassness.

I imagine any Dane in Lebanon is doing quite well because, barring the
exceedingly unlikely but not impossible chance of human trafficking, Danes in
the Levant are there by choice and persons of considerable means (or
privileged volunteers subjecting themselves to unnecessary hardship for a
plethora of potential reasons). Denmark hasn't experienced a war since 1945
and hasn't had a home front war since ~1860. They don't generate refugees, and
by and large neither do their neighbors. This is not magic. This is not a
product of colonialism, or racism, or slavery. This is because certain
cultures made a concerted effort to stop repeating a cycle and chose to
operate differently. Having the means to do this was a lucky break in history
(Nazis loved the Danes but the Danes never publicly reciprocated so they got
all that sweet Marshall Plan cash) as well as some incredibly forward thinking
and talented people who wanted their ethnostate to be happy, healthy, and
productive. The last place Europe sent a bunch of refugees (outside of Europa)
was Palestine. This led directly to a diaspora of Arabs and others out of the
Levant. Guilt opened Europe's borders, foolishness propped the door open, and
cognitive dissonance will claim it is the right thing to do. Denmark, or any
country, that attempts to transfer culture through enforced education (as
opposed to child rearing, intermarriage, social pressure, or the quite
effective but completely contemptible method of attempted genocide) is doomed
to fail. It is just a matter of time.

The author of the article tried very hard to paint the immigrants as hapless
victims with a s __thole on one side and s __tty people on the other, a poor
young mother desperate to be accepted by the country she wishes to be a part
of. And this may be true for her. It could be true for many of the immigrants
in Europe currently. But history is very clear about what mass migration does
to native populations, regardless of the initial power dynamic between
immigrant and native, nevermind the motivation for immigration (European
immigrants to North America were fleeing widespread violence, scant economic
opportunity, and oppressive religious suppression as well). Color, Creed, and
chronology are irrelevant. The advantage lies with the more aggressive in
almost all conflicts, regardless of whether or not each participant
acknowledges that the fight is occurring.

~~~
pjc50
> Denmark hasn't experienced a war since 1945 and hasn't had a home front war
> since ~1860.

Yes

> They don't generate refugees, and by and large neither do their neighbors.

Not since the war, no.

> This is not magic. This is not a product of colonialism, or racism, or
> slavery.

.. no. The refugees fleeing the Levant absolutely are doing so as a result of
colonialism, and the more modern phenomenon of "spheres of influence". The
Syrian civil war wouldn't be happening without the colonialism of the 21st
century, including Russia trying to preserve its Mediterranean naval base.

Certainly _Libya_ wasn't sending any refugees to the West until the West
bombed it.

> Denmark, or any country, that attempts to transfer culture through enforced
> education (as opposed to child rearing, intermarriage, social pressure, or
> the quite effective but completely contemptible method of attempted
> genocide) is doomed to fail.

Enforced culture transfer may not work, but voluntary culture transfer works
extremely well. That's why American culture is so prevalent across the world
to the extent that some countries have minimum "native content percentage"
media laws.

------
new_guy
At the risk of being downvoted to oblivion, it's simply not possible to
maintain a first world civilisation with third world people.

Instead of allowing immigration and destroying western society why don't we
just stop bombing these peoples homes so they don't need to move to start
with?

~~~
ddnb
Are you trying to say the place of birth somehow decides what capabilities you
are born with as a human being? Are you saying people born in third world
countries are different than people born in first world countries? Because
that seems to me to be absolutely ridiculous.

~~~
adsfqwop
In the case where place of birth dictates culture and customs, then yes in
that sense there is a difference. Culture is a very difficult thing to change.

What we get is culture clash, where people are essentially born with different
values, customs, and ways to behave in society.

There is very good internet lore, which sort of describes this phenomenon
called "The Eternal September":

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September)

What Europe is experiencing right now, is essentially the same as what the
internet experienced during Eternal September; the ability and capacity to
assimilate has been exceeded, and therefore yes, there is a very real
possibility of destruction of the western culture and values.

As for stopping the bombing and destruction of these countries, you simply
cannot argue with that proposition.

It's actually quite perplexing that politicians are putting so little effort
into solving the root cause, instead preferring the virtue signalling easy
route, without seemingly any thought to the actual cultural and societal
consequences of their actions.

~~~
ddnb
> Where people are essentially born with different values, customs, and ways
> to behave in society.

When I went to school there was a pretty high number of second generation
muslim immigrants, but even there you already saw their strict values eroding.
Where their parents were mostly strictly religious, most kids (not all) went
partying and drinking, didn't care about wearing veils. A girl from back then,
became my neighbour last year and she couldn't care less about religion
anymore, they have decent jobs and live life like everyone else here. I'm
certain not every immigrant or their kids will adjust as fast, but it's a
matter of time, if not this generation, the next. What 'strict' values will my
neighbours kid still have from their 'home' country? They won't even be
brought up with their religion anymore.

> the ability and capacity to assimilate has been exceeded Has it? Can this be
> quantified in some way? Just like my anecdote, is this a personal feeling?
> As I don't feel that way at all.

~~~
supreme_sublime
>When I went to school there was a pretty high number of second generation
muslim immigrants, but even there you already saw their strict values eroding.

I certainly wouldn't take that happening as a given. If you bend over
backwards to attempt to accommodate their culture in the west, you aren't
giving any incentive to join your culture and worldview.

[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1540895/Young-
Britis...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1540895/Young-British-
Muslims-getting-more-radical.html)

