
 Government: we can freeze Mega assets even if case is dismissed - Cadsby
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/government-we-can-freeze-mega-assets-even-if-case-is-dismissed/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+arstechnica%2Findex+%28Ars+Technica+-+All+content%29
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_delirium
Unfortunately this has been true for a while. For example, having drug-
trafficking charges against you dropped doesn't automatically release all
impounded property. There is some right to due process, but its precise extent
is unclear: there has to be some kind of hearing at some point, basically, in
which the seizure can be challenged. But it's actually possible for the
government to seize the assets permanently after such a hearing, without a
conviction.

Some information here: <http://www.law.cornell.edu/background/forfeiture/>

~~~
ktizo
That's because it is often a separate case that is held against the property
itself, so even if you are found innocent, your property might be found
guilty.

~~~
_delirium
Right, and it'll also be a civil forfeiture case, not a criminal prosecution,
so there's a lower standard of proof.

It does lead to some of my favorite case captions, such as _Quantity of Books
v. Kansas_.

~~~
ktizo
A kind of sinking feeling seems to be telling me that the books lost that
battle.

~~~
DannoHung
Nope, the Books won!

~~~
ktizo
Yayy!.. Did they lose the war though?

------
zallarak
It seems to be that America is slowly becoming less free; considering factors
such as Obama's domestic assassination program, federal wiretapping and more.
As an American, I still acknowledge we live in among the freer societies of
the world. I still can't help but wonder why the government is increasingly
imposing the way it is, history has always shown that repression of almost any
form backfires in the long run.

~~~
ralfn
I think its this constant denial, this lie, "the land of the free", that is
the reason why things just dont improve in the states. From the red scare to
the people-we-dont-like-are-now-called-terrorist.

Why not just accept the fact that Russia, the US and China are most alike when
It comes to freedom. And that actually free places, are by definition less
powerfull. (because of those pesky morals and ideals).

Lets be honest. You are more like Russia, than like Canada. You are more like
China, than like Holland.

You are not the "country of the free". You are the least evil superpower, and
wihout you other nations, like mine, would not be free.

So, as a dutch citizen, i thank you for your sacrifice. I thank you for the
nuclear umbrella, your inclusive economic nature, and by extension my freedom.

Im sorry, that you dont get to experience it yourself. But you cant be a free
superpower. There is no such thing.

~~~
haberman
> Why not just accept the fact that Russia, the US and China are most alike
> when It comes to freedom.

Because it's not true. For example, observe how the US consistently beats
China and Russia by significant margins in freedom indexes:

In the Democracy Index compiled by the UK-based Economist Intelligence Unit,
the US is considered a Full Democracy and both Russia and China are considered
Authoritarian Regimes.

In the Press Freedom Index, compiled by the French organization Reporters
Without Borders, the US is 47th out of 179, Russia is 142nd and China is
174th. (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index>)

In the Economic Freedom of the World Index, published by the Fraser Institute
(based in Canada), the US is 10th out of 141, Russia is 81st and China is
92nd.

I chose indexes that were compiled outside the United States to avoid attempts
to paint these numbers as biased. Other numbers compiled inside the US
concerning human rights also strongly favor the US over Russia and China.

You say we should "be honest," but your claims are not supported by the facts.

~~~
ericd
Could it be that those aren't completely unbiased, despite being based outside
the US? Maybe others give it the benefit of the doubt when compiling these
things whereas they don't with those other regimes.

~~~
CapitalistCartr
Maybe lots of things are true, but the evidence supports his assertion. He
provided three excellent references for his position; you provide a leading
question. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. The USA is
getting steadily less free, but is still far ahead of Russia or China.

------
dllthomas
Hmm. I'm not sure I like it, but the title and comments here are a little
misleading. The government has indicted MegaUpload, MegaUpload is arguing that
they can't be served notice of those indictments, and the government is
saying, "Well, until we can, we're not unfreezing the assets." MegaUpload's
position doesn't sound ridiculous - "we're not a US company, why should we be
subject to US law?" - except that they were doing business in the US (is that
where the seized assets were? It sounds like they at least host some stuff out
of Virginia).

------
mcantelon
Rogue state. Imagine if China had done this to a US company.

~~~
rprasad
China has done this to U.S. companies in China, repeatedly, over and over and
over again.

The U.S. was able to do this to a Hong Kong company _only_ because it had an
agreement with Chinese authorities (specifically, in Hong Kong as it is
economically separate from the rest of the mainland) to do so.

~~~
hobin
"China has done this to U.S. companies in China, repeatedly, over and over and
over again."

I'm curious. Can you can name a few examples?

~~~
rprasad
The only one I can name off the top of my head is Apex Digital (b/c it was
HQ'd close to where I grew up). Apex was competing with a Chinese state-owned
agency and rejected a buyout offer. Chinese officials arrested its CEO on
fraud charges and tried to sieze the company's Chinese operating assets to
give to the Chinese company. Eventually, Apex went bankrupt fighting the case.

There are many more; the common thread is usually that these companies are
competing with Chinese companies.

~~~
muyuu
And did they do this on American soil? colour me surprised.

~~~
jvc26
'U.S. companies in China' ... doesn't look like it.

------
rickmb
Just a thought: Megaupload is a Hong Kong corporation. There's no way the
White House didn't have a diplomatic chat with the Chinese before demolishing
a Hong Kong business, is there?

------
anigbrowl
One wonders what prevents the government from simply providing notice to
Megaupload's counsel, which does after have power of attorney and is thus
presumably empowered to take notice as well. I haven't studied the ins and
outs of criminal procedure though.

------
dakrisht
So glad to see my tax dollars working for things like this. Like another user
here said "this has never been about justice, the law" or what's right - it's
all about lobbying, politics and $$$$

The sham organizations that are the RIAA/MPAA are so heavily vested in the
government, they'll try anything and everything to create a controlled
Internet/sharing system of "content" - which in and of itself is the vaguest
definition of all time. All this SOPA/PIPA crap will never pass, we will
always find a way for a free Internet.

Total waste of time, a government making up bullshit laws along the way for
something that will not only have zero effect on content sharing, but will
actually increase it after angering tons of people.

It's truly ridiculous when resources, energy and tax payer dollars can be
spent on more important issues that our country needs help with. All these
politicians in this country are a f-ing disgrace.

------
boyter
At this point I don't care if Mega-upload is guilty or not. There has been
enough cock-ups by the prosecution to throw this thing out of the courts. I
sincerely hope that the US government pays for this incident and a result of
that sets a precedent of following proper due process.

~~~
vidarh
The only way of fighting this is to not pay for media from any of the big
sources. I don't care if that means abstaining from it or pirating it, but at
this point anything we pay these people is contributing financially to a
sustained attack on society.

------
lifeguard
Sounds like something a king would do.

~~~
mikehotel
Or a Chicago mayor - see
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meigs_Field#Demolition_and_Clos...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meigs_Field#Demolition_and_Closure_by_Chicago_Mayor_Richard_M._Daley)

~~~
Foy
Sounds like something out of Parks and Recreation, only weirder.

Well... truth is stranger than fiction.

------
SeanDav
This has never been about the law or justice, it is all about politics,
lobbying and money.

~~~
dakrisht
Without a doubt

------
stevedekorte
Had they used bitcoin, would the government had any power to do this?

~~~
bryanh
Confiscate the bitcoin bank servers after confiscating the mega servers.

~~~
raverbashing
What?

No need, the password is likely 123456

Or just reset the machines, since they think Amazon works like other vps
providers...

------
alttab
Correction: you think if you do it won't cost those responsible dearly. My bet
is you don't fuck with the Internet.

~~~
ihsw
'Don't fuck with the Internet' implies the internet is a threat, which it is
not. It is a fragmented collection of small organizations which -- through
it's natural fragmentation -- is no serious threat.

The recent SOPA/PIPA circus is irrelevant, there were projects in progress by
the US Government to implement SOPA/PIPA policies and they have not slowed
down.

Don't get confused, we have shown a large demonstration of disunity between
the citizens and the government, but it's still no more than that -- a
demonstration.

~~~
alttab
Your attitude is not one of progress.

------
maeon3
Wow, the justice system refuses to apply American law to a foreign company
operating in a foreign nation, so what you do is go seize his person, and wait
until he has an address in Prison, then presto! It's legal to apply American
law to him.

Imagine if Iran had pulled a stunt like this to some female CEO of a major
corporation was in violation of Sharia law for exposing skin. We can't
imprison them while they live in the foreign land, so lets bring them here and
then we can apply justice.

Am I missing something that makes this an ethical thing to do?

~~~
slurgfest
Exposing skin is pretty distant from what MegaUpload was accused of. (The
validity of the charges is another matter, I just REALLY don't think it is
correct to compare this to not pulling your hijab down far enough)

~~~
Foy
The specific analogy aside, the fact is that the U.S. government is basically
saying that no matter who you are, or where you are, if you violate American
law you'll be brought to American justice, even if they have to drag you to
America against your will first. If any other country in the world did this,
there would be complete public outrage.

From my point of view, American copyright and patent laws are very, very
wrong. They largely miss their intended purposes. What's more, apparently even
non-Americans on the other side of the world are at risk of being the target
of these legal shenanigans.

I cannot stress how RIDICULOUS I think this whole affair is.

It's as if the prosecutors figure that Megaupload operates on the Internet,
therefore it's operating in America and is subject to American law... is this
another example of people who do not understand how the Internet works making
major decisions about the Internet and it's future?

~~~
Steko
People who are upset about the case in general seem to be determined to read
more into _this_ tiny development then there actually is. What they're saying
is that just because you don't have an address doesn't mean we can't freeze
your assets.

Consider a homeless person who had stolen money and kept it in a bank. Just
because the government can't find the alleged thief and doesn't have an
address for them shouldn't mean they can't freeze the account, allowing the
thief to go on making withdrawls at ATMs around the world.

~~~
Foy
You are correct in assuming that I am upset about the case in general.

However your analogy assumes that the homeless person (Megaupload) is guilty
of theft and lives in the U.S.

If this homeless person lives in another country and someone in America claims
that this homeless person stole from them. Does the U.S. government even have
the right to go and seize this homeless person's foreign assets?

Everyone seems to be conveniently forgetting that Megaupload has NOTHING to do
with the United Stated except for operating on the Internet and not
discriminating against U.S. customers.

~~~
Steko
"Does the U.S. government even have the right to go and seize this homeless
person's foreign assets?"

I suppose it would depend on the treaties with have with where those assets
are held.

Also freeze =/= seize. They are similar and rhyme but not identical.

"Everyone seems to be conveniently forgetting that Megaupload has NOTHING to
do with the United Stated except for operating on the Internet and not
discriminating against U.S. customers."

Are you telling me that I can sit in Nowhereistan, hack into bank accounts all
over the world to steal that money, transfer it into my Nowhereistan accounts
and I'm immune to all the world's governments even though they have a treaty
with Nowhereistan?

~~~
Foy
I'm not saying you are immune. But if the judge ruling over the case throws it
out before it gets to court then your assets should not remain frozen
indefinitely out of spite.

~~~
Steko
Throws it out over a technicality in service because of a lack of address?
We're back to the homeless thief with no address getting a free pass.

~~~
nitrogen
No, the homeless thief can be located in person, already within the US, and
arrested by ordinary local police under ordinary local laws.

------
hastur
The lesson from this and other cases is simple:

DON'T START A COMPANY IN THE U.S.

DON'T KEEP YOUR ASSETS IN THE U.S.

DON'T KEEP YOUR DATA IN U.S.-owned DATA CENTERS

(That includes non-US data centers belonging to US companies, like Amazon AWS
servers in Ireland.)

Otherwise you're exposing your company and your users to the arbitrary,
predatory practices of US "law enforcement" system, which happily does the
bidding of US content industries.

------
vtry
Welcome to the police state. None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who
falsely believe they are free

