

Ask HN: 6 months of trying to get a job with no luck, should I go get a degree? - acquirefinance

First, I've read through most of the threads on here regarding getting a degree vs getting job experience.<p>My situation: since I was 16, I have earned a fairly nice amount of money off building, selling and monetizing websites. This all changed early last year when basically all the ad companies I worked with suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth. The money that I did save up, has diminished as my monthly income suddenly hit zero. Ever since about a year ago I've been struggling.<p>So I went about applying for full time jobs. I'm fluent in HTML/CSS, 5+ year experience with SEO, 4 years experience of SEO, 4 years experience of social media marketing and 4 years of DevOp experience especially with Debian distro's.<p>Now when it has come to finding a job I've virtually had no luck. Out of all the jobs that I've applied for (probably close to 50), I think I've had about 4 replies back. The majority of them, you never hear back, not even a email saying thanks for your application. I know not everyone will email back but I think it's pretty rude that 92% of the jobs I've applied for don't even have the courtesy to send a 1 liner back. And the jobs that I did get a interview with, NONE of them emailed me back saying sorry you didn't get the job even though I made them promise in the interview that they would.<p>The main thing I noticed is that employer see's I have no Uni degree and instantly crosses me off the list.<p>So that leads me to think should I go back and get a degree?<p>I'm 20 now, but I've had 2 attempts of starting a degree which haven't ended to well (poor choice of degree and uni).<p>I would probably give Computer Science another go, purely to get the piece of paper, as I can almost guarantee I will not be using my future Java/C# (the 2 languages that they teach you at the uni I'm looking at) skills if I ever get a degree.<p>So can anyone please help me by putting me on the right track of what I should considering doing?
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hcho
Poor stats in getting replies is almost always due to having a poorly written
CV. Did you try having your CV to someone who does hiring?

As for getting a degree, most things in recruitment are actually signalling(as
in asymmetrical information). By having a degree in CS you'd be signalling
that: 1) You have the discipline to stick with something for four years 2) You
can learn any new technology thrown at you 3) You have some analytical
thinking capability

The languages you learn and use during your studies is mostly irrelevant.

~~~
acquirefinance
I mentioned in another comment but I ran out of space in the original post.

I've reworked my CV and had 2 people who do recruiting for a living help me
refine it. I've also made it look nice with a bit of colour and some nice
fonts so it doesn't look like a boring old CV made in word with Times, but at
the same time still looks professional.

~~~
hcho
Talk to someone who actually is a hiring manager, not a recruiter. Recruiters
are just middle men and most don't know what they are talking about.

~~~
acquirefinance
Sorry I said that wrong, they both do hiring for companies rather than working
at a recruitment agency.

Both of them said that you should put more emphasis on your cover letter and
initial email as they won't even open your CV if your cover letter doesn't
stand out.

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hodgesmr
Getting a degree can only help your chances of getting hired. You're right,
many employers see that you don't have a degree and immediately throw your
application out--no matter how unjust that might be.

Never count on the employer to follow up or get back to you. That is your job.
Send your own follow up emails. It makes you stand out.

Don't be so sure that you won't use Java/C#. You never know where your career
will take you.

Computer Science is not about learning languages, it's about learning
concepts. You will gain a lot of knowledge in a CS program that is language
agnostic.

~~~
acquirefinance
That's true, I do try to follow up every potential job, but even if I email
them multiple times, I still never hear back. There's been a few jobs that
I've rung up to ask if they have received my application, and I still never
hear back.

The problem going through job sites (which I hate) is that you can never find
the actual email address so it's kinda hard to follow up on potential jobs.

But I do see what you mean when it comes down to concepts. I still can't see
myself using Java/C# however. I've never owned a Windows machine before and
I'm interested in websites and web apps opposed to desktop apps, so I can most
likely get away without using Java/C#.

~~~
hodgesmr
Sure. But let's say you want to get in to enterprise development. Almost every
large company out there has an IBM (Java) or Microsoft (C#) stack on their
backend. And yes, I'm talking about for web apps.

Despite what HN would have you believe, most of the big guys aren't using
Rails or Node.

~~~
acquirefinance
Yea I get you, but honestly I have no desire to get into enterprise stuff and
work for a large firm. I would much rather prefer working for a startup or a
smaller more creative company.

I really just want to get some cash flowing in so I can invest them in my own
ideas and hopefully one day start my own startup if the opportunity arises.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
It's a lot easier to be picky once you have a degree and a few years of
experience under your belt and some money saved up.

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greaterweb
Realize that whatever path you take, if you are looking for a future/career
and web development you need to be actively developing. Use your free time to
build a bullet proof portfolio showcasing your talent. If you have a strong
portfolio, the work will find you with or without that piece of paper.

I see red flags though in reading that you have applied to 50 companies and
only received 4 responses. Your approach in contacting these companies is
flawed or the representation of your skillset and capabilities is
weak/inaccurate.

Also, put yourself in the shoes of the hiring manager. A 20 year old is
telling you they have 4-5 years experience. It takes a fairly unique 15-16
year old to be building something of use at that age. Best case scenario (in
the mind of the hiring manager) is you have may have 1-2 years of __real
__working experience that would be of value to the role they are tying to
fill. And these days, who doesn't?

Take a good hard look at where you motivation lies and pursue a path that will
convince prospective employers that you have what it takes contribute at a
high level. Production guys are a dime a dozen, what sets you apart?

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acquirefinance
Here's my CV if anyone wants to critique it. Photoshop is terrible at
exporting pdf's that aren't 999mb so excuse the fuzziness.

<http://d.pr/f/6bIc>

~~~
hcho
Drop the word blackhat from your SEO experience and mention of forum
membership as well. You are starting off with a huge red flag.

Remove non-qualifying words as "familiar". You either know html5/css3 or you
don't. Same goes for modifying PHP code files. You either know PHP or you
don't. Talking about modifying is odd.

I'd consider leaving education section out altogether. It's not your strongest
point so no reason to put it on display.

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kohanz
"I can almost guarantee I will not be using my future Java/C# (the 2 languages
that they teach you at the uni I'm looking at) skills if I ever get a degree."

I'm not making an argument for University here (I think there are valid points
on either side of that discussion), but to me the above shows a
misunderstanding of what a University education is about. It is much less
about learning practical skills (which is why it's not for everyone), than it
is about learning theoretical concepts. However, most of all, University is
about learning how to learn. How to learn things quickly and well at the same
time. You may already be a good learner, but that is what the degree provides
some assurance of (but not a guarantee) to hiring managers.

~~~
tgrass
Additionally, and to my mind most critically, the university degree signals
that you play well (enough) with others. It says you have learned that
sometimes power is capricious and when it is you can keep your head down long
enough to survive.

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orangethirty
You should stop using a CV, and build an online portfolio. Then start
marketing like an online business, rather than like a local contractor. You
can get work the next week if you simply stop focusing on your bad luck. Start
by advertising on your local classifieds.

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corkill
Post a portfolio of your work. Maybe someone here would hire you? CVs are
still important for some jobs, but probably not the kind of jobs you want to
have...

Typically when someone is hiring they have 100's of applicants to weed through
and no time to do it in. Don't take it personally they aren't emailing you,
just change your approach, doing the same thing over and over might work, but
then again likely not.

Call them and ask if they have 5 minutes for some quick feedback on why they
hired someone else.

If you do a 4 year degree you will still have the same problem at the end of
it, you will need to be able to sell yourself. Piece of paper won't make much
different IMHO.

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FrancisFrank
I still think not getting a degree is a mistake any young person would make
because of the way jobs are structured today. Am not blaming you but i advice
you should still make any effort possible to get a degree because its harder
and though to think of a job in a typical society without a degree and even a
certification to distinguish yourself.

And i suggest you loosen up a bit because i think you are strict with the
technologies you learned, If its possible to learn c#, Java and whatever thing
please grab it fast - Technology is moving like a wind.

But if you think you still want to stand alone with your skills, then its just
as good but take note that it may take more skills and harder work since you
will be doing it yourself. Then you have to start thinking of what to build
that can solve a major problem in the society or the world.

It takes courage, Focus, self determination and ability to go against the
trend like Mark, Bill Gates and the rest of them who had to quit studies. But
the choice is yours.

PLEASE you can not serve too masters at a time either you get a degree and get
a better job while you keep on exploiting your skills or you take a decision
and stand as a freelancer and be ready to do things on your own like starting
a startup. You are very young to make either of the decisions but you must
decide fast. When you decide correctly the Jobs will be looking for you and
earning a living will be the smallest thing to bother about.

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lsiunsuex
I feel your pain - I too don't have a degree. But I do hold a day job as a sys
admin and web developer and do website development on the side - and as you
said, things have dried up a bit in recent times and I don't get as much side
work as I ust to - but, thats why I maintain a day job.

If you applied to 50 jobs and you heard back from 4, something is probably
wrong with your resume. try reworking that.

If you wanna stay how you've been (working for ad agencies) fire up google
maps or whatever, and run some searches - send some emails, try to call
people, etc...

You obviously got jobs before with agencies; find some new ones.

I'm on the fence with degrees - some fields require them obviously (doctor,
dentist, etc...) some do not (mechanic, web development, etc...)

I never regret not getting a degree - its made me who I am and I fight for my
self education / jobs I apply for. But its never been "easy" not having a
degree.

I think those of us without degrees are more "hungry" then the rest. Because
we didn't sit in a class and were feed knowledge and had to go out and get it
ourselves, we seek out new knowledge more than someone with a degree might.

Plus - sitting through 2-4 years of uni won't help you now if you have no
money. Fix your resume, maybe do a portfolio website for yourself and find a
job. Then, while working, if you still want to get a degree, go get it.

~~~
acquirefinance
I tried to mention my CV but I only had 2000 characters of text.

I've reworked it at least 5 times. I've shown it to 2 people who do recruiting
for a living who have helped me tweak it to the best I can. To the jobs I got
interviews with, most of them did mention that they liked my CV. There's
always room for improvment but I think it is pretty good atm.

Also for some web design jobs, I've redesigned the employers website (cause
most of the time they suck). I think I did it about 4 times and not 1 of them
replied back so I kinda gave up on that idea.

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Down_n_Out
20 is still young, I'd get a degree, it might help land you a job, it might
not, but the main problem at the moment, and I'm speaking about my country,
though I think it goes for multiple countries, is that employers now have too
much choice. Let's say company X is looking for a new web developer, giving
the current status of the market 50 people apply for the job, so much choice,
lets cut that down, eliminate all the ones without a degree, still 40, lets
delete all the ones with a degree and zero experience, 25 ... That's better,
and then lets see what else they can use to cut down (how much experience,
knowledge, place of residence,...).

So, you have experience, now I'd go for a degree and keep that experience up
as best as possible. Besides, later on in your career, that degree might help
you get other jobs, promotions, better pay ...

Just my 2c.

~~~
acquirefinance
In my country as well, it's the same deal. However we are still behind the
times as most employers somehow think asp is the shit when it comes to web
development.

99% of the jobs here are for .net/java/c# and most them require you to be
'Microsoft Certified'. I've even seen a few jobs for Linux Support roles that
require you to be 'Microsoft Certified'. That's probably why they the listings
have been there for months :p

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davidyoung604
I've been wondering along the same lines, though my situation's a little
different. I'm employed full time at a software company, and I'm about 70-80%
of the way through my bachelor degree. I've discussed it with a couple of
people in the company who are in higher positions than I am, and they've both
said that it's good to have it, just for the sake of having it. Managers (or
HR) use it as a checkbox - a quick way of filtering out applicants. I was told
the following by my manager yesterday: "If I'm looking at you and someone with
the same skills, but he has a bachelor degree, I'm going to hire him. He's
proven that he can stick with it, and he gets the checkbox ticked."

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revorad
The top skill you've put on your CV is blackhat SEO. Maybe that's why no one
wants to hire you?

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arisAlexis
Im in the same boat only 33, and I started taking distance learning lessons
for a degree.

Go get it .

