
Results from placebo-controlled LSD microdose human study - sahin-boydas
https://newatlas.com/lsd-microdose-human-placebo-trial/60177/
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opportune
Yeah, this doesn't surprise me. LSD makes you _think_ you're developing truly
profound thoughts and realizations but most people are unable to vocalize
those realizations after coming down. Kind of like how every idea you come up
with sounds like a great idea when you're on stimulants like cocaine.

Potentially one of the reasons that people like to take small amounts of LSD
while they work is due to its slight stimulant effect. You'll note in the
article that blood pressure increased with higher doses. LSD also reduces any
sensation of need/wanting to sleep. So it will definitely perk you up better
than a strong cup of coffee

~~~
empath75
I had genuinely profound thoughts and feelings when I was on lsd that I would
say changed the course of my whole life in a positive way. That you can’t
describe them or put them into words doesn’t make them meaningless or
valueless, it makes them _ineffable_.

Most of the most amazing and important experiences of my life, the ones that I
would choose if I were forced to say which were the ones that made life worth
living, fall into that category.

~~~
opportune
Well, to provide a different opinion, I've never experienced anything lasting
from it. I maybe had one realization, once, which is that everything in life
is so silly I should just not get upset about it. Though on one of the 6 times
I tried it I also had a very bad panic attack. To me, it's just that a drug is
a drug, not a panacea.

There is nothing magic about it, and _lots_ of drugs make you think you're
smarter than you really are.

~~~
api
You and the parent are both "right." Psychedelics are notoriously
unpredictable YMMV things, which is part of why they haven't been mainstreamed
as a treatment for anything. For mainstream drugs we usually want something as
predictable as possible.

~~~
empath75
I think it’s silly that we have to medicalize mind altering drugs. Why does it
have to be a treatment for something?

~~~
mfatica
Because it is a treatment for some things and we should treat it that way so
those that can be helped get the medicine they need

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Analemma_
I have a mild objection to this headline: in context, "intriguing" plants the
suggestion that there were positive results, or at least potential avenues of
future research, whereas the article body states pretty clearly that there was
no effect:

> In the end, the researchers conclude the LSD microdoses did not affect the
> majority of mood, cognition and physiological measures that were examined.

It goes on to say:

> However, it is also noted this is not at all a final determination on the
> ultimate veracity of LSD microdosing, either as a cognitive booster, or an
> anti-depressant. This is merely the first step in trying to empirically
> understand the acute effects of this oft-reported anecdotal phenomenon.

More research is always good, but it's important to remember that cases like
this where the purported effects are on things like mood and creativity (which
are tricky to measure and probably have significant day-to-day variation) are
going to be especially vulnerable to placebo effects and wishful thinking.
When you combine this with gwern's also-negative result, I don't think you can
escape the conclusion that LSD microdosing probably does nothing.

~~~
derefr
If a "microdose" is defined as "a dose that has no perceivable effects", is
there a term for a dose one step up from that: the weakest dose whose effect
_can_ be perceived?

I have a feeling that a lot of the people who think microdosing works, are
actually taking that level of dose, rather than a true microdose.

~~~
ivarv
The study noted that the highest dose administered (25ug) was perceptible so I
wonder if you could isolate the results of just the cohort that received that
dose. That said, it would negate the blind on the study and all data would
then be suspicious.

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tmoney9999
Not the first study, although it might be the first academic study. . .

This was on HN in 2013, and the same results were reported.
[https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing](https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing)

~~~
dang
Gwern thread here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6565869](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6565869)

First-everness struck from title above.

~~~
tmoney9999
Props to OP.

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tomq
It’s important to note: the study only had 20 participants, so it wouldn’t
have enough statistical power to detect a moderately large effect. Failure to
find an effect is different from evidence there is no effect.

~~~
gwern
> It’s important to note: the study only had 20 participants, so it wouldn’t
> have enough statistical power to detect a moderately large effect.

This is a within-subject experiment: each participant got all 4 possible
doses. The paper
([https://www.gwern.net/docs/nootropics/2019-bershad.pdf](https://www.gwern.net/docs/nootropics/2019-bershad.pdf))
doesn't discuss power that I can see, but the power of a within-subject design
will be a lot higher than the between-subject you're probably thinking of,
where n=20 is generally way too little. So, might be decently powered after
all.

~~~
belltaco
So the article did not do a good job of explaining the study.

Also, why did they not go for a dose every 3-5 days like the anecdotes, but
instead of went for every 7 days. And then say it might be different when done
every few days. Were they trying to avoid testing on the weekends or
something?

~~~
gwern
Washout. If you went more frequently, then the excuse would be that the LSD
microdosing might still be having effects on the low-dose or placebo days.

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ve55
>did not affect the majority of mood, cognition and physiological measures
that were examined.

Poor headline, the results are not actually intriguing.

~~~
dang
Ok, no more intrigue in the title above.

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alexandercrohde
Well, I'd like to see a long-term follow-up on the participants. Some people
self-report lasting mental changes from hallucinogens.

~~~
gwern
They do... but typically from much larger doses, 'macrodosing', if you will.

~~~
alexandercrohde
Sure, but the premise of this study was that there are real, measurable
effects of microdosing that are too subtle to be self-reported.

So it's worth following up if this study's finding is a lasting effect too,
actually I almost think it'd be irresponsible not to.

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ValleyOfTheMtns
Curious to see more studies like this on other hallucinogenic drugs like
psilocybin (psilocybe cubensis i.e. magic mushrooms).

