
Ask HN: How do I explain leaving a successful, but awful startup? - toosuccess
Hi everyone,<p>I am in the process of trying to look for a new job, but I keep getting asked why I want to leave a startup that on paper, looks like a golden ticket(funding, revenue, growth, etc). My reasons for leaving are fairly personal:<p>- It&#x27;s a hostile and homophobic work environment. Right now I&#x27;m not out at work, but I can tell it would be job death sentence.<p>- It&#x27;s not a good culture fit, besides the problems above. Team events center around intramural soccer or going out drinking all night. I&#x27;m not athletic or drink and get called out, made fun of for it at work.<p>- I feel bullied, I&#x27;ve had numerous instances of being called gay at work in coded ways.<p>- Theres no HR and no desire to ever have an HR department.<p>I&#x27;m struggling with explaining why I want to leave but I don&#x27;t want to come off to potential employers as someone who is super PC, sensitive and can&#x27;t handle a joke. I&#x27;ve been at the company now for a year so its not like I can&#x27;t tough it out, but I need to leave now to keep my emotional health.<p>What is the best way to communicate this to a hiring manager as my reason for leaving? Has anyone else had to deal with an openly hostile work environment and how&#x27;d you deal with it?
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tptacek
Don't try to communicate this to a prospective employer as your reason for
leaving.

"What did you not like about your last job" is a super-common interview
question for which there is virtually no upside for the candidate. You can
only lose points with your answer, you can't gain them.

What you --- and everyone else looking for a new gig --- should do is, bank a
couple of work-process things you'd've liked to see them do differently. Maybe
they should test using a different framework, or do something different with
project management. Keep the answer short, objective, and anodyne.

People leave jobs all the time. It seems like a big deal now because you're
going through it, but it's much less of a big deal for hiring managers. They
ask that question because they think they're supposed to. When it comes up, be
boring, and get past it as quickly as you can.

I would _not_ say you left because of "culture fit". That's because (a) it's
not a boring answer, (b) invites an immediate followup question that prolongs
this unproductive phase of the interview, and (c) candidates are disadvantaged
by "culture fit" fitting/screening. Screen a new prospective job for
compatible culture _after_ you get an offer. Try to make a prospective
employer make the decision to extend an offer based as much as possible on
objective stuff.

You do not need a great reason for changing jobs in this market. "I feel like
I contributed everything I could contribute to that team and now I'm looking
for a new challenge" is a fine reason.

~~~
skylark
I would actually extend this advice to the exit interview as well. The tech
community is smaller than you might expect - I run into people I thought I'd
never see again all the time. Even if you hate every last person at your
current company, I'd recommend against burning bridges.

~~~
yuhong
Not that I like it, of course. I want to fix the problem.

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d4rkph1b3r
I just wanted to throw in an anecdote I have: Friend's consulting company is
run in a not so professional manner in some ways: lot's of ball busting and
drinking, too many jokes and comments about gay things or gay jokes etc.

Totally not a cool environment for many people, and I don't support it, but
they had one of their employees come out and they felt _awful_. They were just
general assholes, not the kind that specifically had anything against
someone's sexuality. They bent over backwards to make them feel included and
cut down on most of the gay comments around the office.

I'm not suggesting you stay and I think tptacek's advice is spot on, I just
wanted to share in case you do decide coming out is the best thing for your
mental health while you look for a job.

~~~
kelukelugames
This is great to hear. Sometimes people just don't know any better.

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pm24601
1\. If the new company (or a recruiter) contacted you, then the easy answer
is: "You reached out to me, and the opportunities sounded exciting enough for
me to consider leaving a job I am otherwise happy with." With this answer, it
isn't that you are leaving - the interviewing company is more interesting.

2\. Don't bring it up unless they ask you why you are leaving.

3\. Be prepared for the next question and the next question - your answer must
be an answer that does not invite followup questions. Otherwise you run the
risk of the interview consisting solely of the interviewer trying to decide if
you will leave them in a year.

4\. Another good answer is: The company has a great future but my position has
no growth potential.

Valley is small. People change. Don't burn bridges. You never know who is
friends with whom or whose wife is friends with whom.

 _Document, document, document_ \- while you are still there. Document what is
happening daily. This serves these purposes:

1\. if you do end up having a job issue that becomes legal. Documentation is
your only defense. (including exact words)

2\. if the current employer acts all surprised that there is a problem - the
documentation helps explain your perspective.

3\. It will help you judge how bad the problem is: is it one person? your
manager? the CEO?

4\. It will help take the emotion out of it - so you can see the other aspects
of the job. (good and bad) It may be time to leave for other valid
professional reasons.

Breathe deep and focus on what you need out of this job before acting.

------
brudgers
"Why do you want to leave?"

"Oh, I'm not sure that I do, but I've always thought that your team at Acme
Widgets would great to work with, so you can only imagine how excited I am to
actually get the opportunity to talk to you about this exciting position."

Bullshit questions deserve bullshit answers.

If the question isn't bullshit, "I don't drink" is enough...and a useful tool
for screening future employers over their work culture.

Good luck.

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codegeek
You don't explain the real reason. You never do unless it is "I am interested
in pursuing more interesting opportunities after doing xyz here at my current
firm and this job opportunity at your firm seems like a great fit". Yes, that
should always be the reason. It is unfortunate but the reality of hiring
world. Anything else you say can and will hurt you and could be the difference
between you getting a job and getting a rejection email if at all.

Never say "I left because of hostile env" because that will open up
discussions about things that will not give you an upper hand. The new hiring
manager can never truly believe what you said and will most likely think "this
person complains too much..hmm should we hire this person". The reason is that
this new hiring manager does not know you at a personal level yet. So even
though you may think it is a good idea to share your story, they will only
want to deal with simple reasons like "better opportunity", "closer to home",
"love your product" etc.

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kelukelugames
"Company xyz is great. We've got a ton of funding and revenue growth. The IPO
is coming soon. I want to work at a company where the story has not been
written yet."

"I actually really like working at xyz. There are also a lot of things I like
about abc. That's why I'm exploring this opportunity."

Or some bullshit like that.

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partisan
That sounds horrible and I am sorry you have to face that.

I've left places that have had toxic environments. Explain that you did not
fit in, from a cultural perspective. Try to avoid bad-mouthing the old
employer, but make it clear that you are looking to work with people who have
a positive perspective.

------
Jemaclus
To echo tptacek, take the most boring possible way out. "Opportunities for
growth and additional responsibility aren't readily available, and I'm looking
for a new challenge."

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informatimago
To the left startup, you don't have to explain anything. To new potential
employers, just say "It wasn't a good culture fit." Basically, you don't have
to explain anything either, (and probably should not), but you want to give a
polite answer, so give the blandest explanation, like culture fit. You may
also instead mention how the new potential employer is closer to your home, or
offer a better salary, etc.

~~~
notahacker
Isn't the first question most employers would ask in response to that "what
didn't you like about the culture?"

Sounds like one of those cases where the truth "I didn't appreciate the stream
of homophobic banter from some team members or feel that I had any way of
influencing that aspect of the workplace culture" is a lot less damaging than
a bland "culture fit" answer which might be a coded answer for "argues all the
time", "needs far too much guidance" or "not willing to work as hard as
expected" or "prefers stability of BigCorp"

Let's face it, an interviewer not making an offer mainly because they
interpret "dislikes constant stream of homophobic banter" as "PC asshole" is a
pretty good indication of _another bullet dodged_ anyway.

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err4nt
Firstly, I'm so sorry you have had to deal with ignorance like that! You're
justified in how you feel about this, and don't have to tell them anything you
don't want to. I'm not sure how applicable these reasons will be, but feel
free to take and use any that work for you:

Interviewer: "So toosuccess, can you explain to me the reason for leaving
XYZcorp? It looks like a golden ticket!"

\- I want to be part of a company where I feel I can contribute more.

\- I'm looking for an opportunity that helps me get closer to my goal of
___________ (personal or professional growth goal here)

\- One thing that attracts me to you that I felt lacked at XYZcorp was
___________ (feature you like about new company that they do well)

All of these reasons keep the focus of the conversation positive and
constructive, without bashing your current employer, and let you express your
desire for growth and health while positioning the company you are applying to
as an ideal place for both of those.

Good luck on the interviews, and I can't wait until you can get out of that
hostile environment. I've never worked at a place like that so I know there
are plenty of better culture fits for you out there. Keep searching!

------
davismwfl
Don't deal with it. Many good points have been made here. But basically just
tell your current employer on the exit interview (if they have one) that you
have a new opportunity that you just can't ignore. Don't tell them anything in
specific, it does you no good and honestly they don't deserve any more of your
time.

As someone else mentioned too, the tech community while seemingly large is
not, and it is not unlikely you will run into some of these people at another
place. At the same time work to not hold a grudge, some people are more weak
minded (and struggle with it internally) so they go along with the culture
instead of standing up to what they don't believe. That isn't calling you
weak, its calling those that participate, when they know better, weak. Yes it
is a character flaw to some people, but I just don't believe in holding a
grudge against these people.

In regards to a new employer, you never say anything derogatory about a prior
employer or manager etc. Simply because they will have in their head if you
are willing to do this to someone else you will do it to them if you are
unhappy. So instead, play the game and just tell them that you are looking for
new challenges. It is even better if you are going to Enterprise from Startup
because you can say, well I wanted to gain experience in an Enterprise
environment now or something along those lines. When you have a change in
types of business it helps. Also if you change industry, say from B2B products
to B2C products you can use that as your reason for changing. It is simple and
easy and no one really questions it. Just be prepared for a follow on question
about what intrigues you about the B2B or Consumer market etc.

Good luck and I hope you find an environment that appreciates you soon.

------
faceface
I am in a similar position: great growth, good position, decent pay; on the
other side everyone around me is horrible at their job and it's a cult of
personality around the CEO micromanaging everyone. I can't take it anymore,
but I've only been here for 1.5 years, what do I tell the prospective
companies?

------
akoumjian
I would tell them what you just told us. If you're afraid of what the hiring
manager might think, then maybe the company you're interviewing at is just as
bad. It is an applicant's market right now and if you are decent at what you
do you can be a little choosey.

As long as you aren't going around, laying blame and spouting stories of
dysfunction, you're just describing one of the most common reasons people
leave companies. In my view, it's completely justified.

I'll add that I get to hire people, and what you've said here wouldn't scare
me from hiring you.

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WaltPurvis
Team events? Is that a thing. Even if I was an avid soccer player and drinker,
I'd still find the whole concept pretty horrifying.

I guess I've (fortunately) just never worked at a company where you're
expected to participate wholeheartedly in "team events" \-- I honestly can't
imagine what universe these people are living in where it's considered
acceptable to judge people based on how willing they are to engage in the cool
kids' favorite activities _outside of work_.

~~~
dudul
What is so shocking about having a drink with your co-workers after hours? Or
playing a soccer game once in a while? Or having group dinner? Or attending a
basketball game?

People who don't attend shouldn't be judged and discriminated against, but
it's just human nature to develop a better relationship with the one who comes
play soccer with you once in a while.

~~~
WaltPurvis
It didn't sound like occasionally going out for an impromptu drink with two or
three coworkers, it sounded like organized "team events" involving activities
(soccer, drinking) that many people aren't physically capable of engaging in
or quite justifiably don't wish to engage in.

There are many things that are "just human nature" that should be discouraged
in the workplace. Judging people who don't want to go drinking or play soccer
with you is pretty high on the list, as is forming in-groups and out-groups at
work based on who you hang out with when you're not at work.

~~~
dudul
If these are company sponsored events then yes it could be seen as a problem,
especially if there is no diversity - going for a soccer game once it's
perfectly fine, if the following event is a trivia night or attending stand up
comedy or something like that.

If it's informal gatherings I don't see any problem, people are free to do
what they want after work, including with people they work with if they share
the same interests.

From the original post I understood the latter that's why I was surprised by
your comment because such informal events are pretty common based on my
experience.

------
lucozade
I'm very sorry to hear this. I hope things work out for you.

My suggestion would be to just say that you went to the startup as it sounded
interesting but with no real expectations. You tried it for a year but it
wasn't really for you. If you can then say something about the new company
that attracts you to it, implying a contrast, so much the better.

As others have said, the key thing is to be general and move onto something
you want to talk about as soon as you can.

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seunosewa
It's a "great" company but their "unique" culture isn't ideal for you. You
want to get away from certain "dominant" personalities who exhibit
"unacceptable" behaviour. You want to work in a more established company with
a "well-developed corporate structure".

~~~
dudul
I wouldn't go with that. Unless you're interviewing at a company publicly
known for putting a lot of effort into developing an inclusive and friendly
culture it may come the wrong way.

They're gonna want more details about what you mean by "dominant"
personalities, what kind of behavior were unacceptable, etc.

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jacquesm
You are under no obligation at all to give them any reason whatsoever. Simply
tell them your reasons are personal and leave it at that. Not all questions
require an answer, some are simply asked to fill the void.

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colinrand
Why would you want to join a company that didn't appreciate this reason for
leaving?

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anon3_
> being called gay at work in coded ways.

I don't know the details of your situation, but could you elaborate on this?

~~~
toosuccess
A lot of the time it will come out as just micro aggressions. Some of the more
explicit ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

After they found out I was vegetarian "Oh of course you are"

Woman in the office said she has never seen me on Tinder, coworker replys "Its
cause he's on Grindr"

I can think of a few others but I don't want to post anything thats too
identifiable.

------
bojangmcjang
Stop being gay?

~~~
toosuccess
Tried it

