
In California, Electric Cars Outpace Plugs, and Sparks Fly - radley
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/science/in-california-electric-cars-outpace-plugs-and-sparks-fly.html
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URSpider94
This is a classic example of poor resource allocation by underpricing. If you
give away parking (already a scarce resource) and charging for free, rational
people will use as much as they can get. The problem is compounded by the fact
that it costs money to run conduit to a charging space, so businesses tend to
put them as close to the building as possible, making the space even more
valuable.

I have met personally with ChargePoint representatives. They have data that
shows that if you charge $0.30 or more per kWh, then only people who NEED a
charge will occupy the space. Couple that with an occupancy fee that ramps up
dramatically when the car stops drawing current, or after, say, 2-4 hours, and
people will start moving their cars. Even at this rate, you're still only
charging $0.10/mile for electricity, which is on par with what you'd pay for
gasoline these days.

~~~
URSpider94
I should add that we need to step up enforcement on non-chargers (whether ICE
or Tesla or Leaf) parking in charging spots. The handicap space analogy is a
bad one, a better one is parking in front of a gas pump. Police and property
owners should be giving out large (multi-$100) tickets and towing/impounding.
I guarantee the behavior would stop.

~~~
epistasis
As it is, it's quite difficult to get back to your car at the exact timing of
completion.

I think it would be vastly preferable if:

1) All cars _and_ chargers had a clear and consistent signal to show that they
are done charging. In my area, few chargers indicate charging status, and
every car has it's own completely inconsistent meaning when it comes to
lights, it seems.

2) Each charging port could access multiple parking spots.

3) It was considered polite to unplug a _charged_ car and plug in your own
(this is already mostly the case).

4) Charging locations were not placed at the best parking locations, but
spread out.

A charging station need not be so expensive that it has to be used
continuously to justify its capital cost. Better to have them spread out and
plentifully available, but until we're there, there's many ways to make each
charging port more valuable without causing serious inconvenience.

~~~
URSpider94
I agree with most of what you said, except the fact is, chargers are in fact
quite expensive to install. Putting in a large number of them requires massive
upgrades of the electrical service. Consider putting in 20, 30A chargers would
require a ~800A-rated service (since all could be in service at the same time
and you need some safety margin), vs the 200A service installed in the typical
home. It's also hard to run them to spots far away in a parking lot, which ups
the installation expense quite a lot.

~~~
epistasis
Well I'm not advocating for large installs in a single location, just lots and
lots of small installs everywhere, which is far better for everyone. 20 in one
spot would be far too many.

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noonespecial
I have an idea. To use a charger, you have to scan a QR code with your phone.
It makes you part of the charging community. It wouldn't be too hard to start
to calculate an etiquette rating through a mix of user reviews and behavior
modeling. If you're consistently an ass about charging, it won't be long
before public chargers won't accept you.

~~~
pmoriarty
I'd prefer something that doesn't track you or invade your privacy.
URSpider94's solution above about ticketing non-chargers would be preferable.

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yessql
It's really going to be interesting when EV drivers start getting charged per
mile. We'll have to figure out something to make up for the missing gasoline
yeah revenues. And it is probably already becoming substantial in California.

~~~
bpodgursky
Reflexive downvotes are kind of out of control on HN now (parent was gray)...

For those who don't understand, gasoline taxes provide a large portion of
highway maintenance revenue (often most). Electric cars have as much wear-and-
tear on roads as gas cars, but avoid that tax right now. At some point we will
need to figure out how to shift taxes from per-gallon to per-mile, or add an
equivalent surcharge on electric chargers.

Since home chargers are just electrical outlets, there's no real way to tax
just the "highway electricity" there. So we either have to increase
income/property taxes across the board, or have a mileage tax. Most of HN
would't like option (1) because then everyone who bikes/takes public transit
is subsidizing all highway transit.

So yeah, it has to happen eventually.

~~~
aexaey
> Electric cars have as much wear-and-tear on roads as gas cars

Sometimes even more. Of course that depends on exact car that is being
compared, but as a rule of thumb, an all-electric vehicle would be
significantly heavier due to battery weight, and as was pointed out:

> Road damage rises [...] to the fourth power of the axle weight [0].

Salient example is a Tesla model S, which have a curb weight of 2.1 metric
tons in standard configuration [1], while comparable gasoline-powered sedan
weights in at approximately 1.5 metric tons [2]. That means that applying
formula above, "average", electric car causes 3.6 _times_ more road wear than
"average" CO2-belching one, just due to being 40% heavier while having same
number of axles.

To make matters worse, many countries tax vehicles based on their weight (so
to translate a fair share of road repair costs to the vehicle owner). And that
makes subsidies (in the form of tax exemptions) to the electric vehicles even
more important - otherwise electric cars would not be able to compete at all.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_axle_weight_rating](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_axle_weight_rating)

[1] [http://www.teslamotors.com/support/model-s-
specifications](http://www.teslamotors.com/support/model-s-specifications)

[2]
[http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/3series/sedan/2015/sho...](http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/3series/sedan/2015/showroom/technical_data.html)

~~~
masklinn
> Salient example is a Tesla model S, which have a curb weight of 2.1 metric
> tons in standard configuration [1], while comparable gasoline-powered sedan
> weights in at approximately 1.5 metric tons [2]. That means that applying
> formula above, "average", electric car causes 3.6 times more road wear than
> "average" CO2-belching one, just due to being 40% heavier while having same
> number of axles.

The comparison doesn't hold, the Model S is a full-sized sedan, the 3-series
is a compact. The Model S is somewhere between the 5-Series and the 7-Series,
closer to the 7-Series than the 5.

Either way, both EV and ICE car road wear is completely dwarfed by trucks.

~~~
aexaey
It is a moot point. Having seen (but not driven) model S, I can't say it looks
big enough to warrant comparison to a 7-series, and even then latter is 1800kg
[0], so Model S is still 17% heavier or causing 1.85 times road wear.

Point about trucks stands of course, as you've pointed in the other comment.
3-4 orders of magnitude more road wear - that's crazy! I wonder how does that
translates to truck road taxes.

[0]
[http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/7series/sedan/2015/sho...](http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/7series/sedan/2015/showroom/technical_data.html)

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cperciva
My local shopping mall solved the "unplug someone else's car to charge your
own" problem very simply: The charging station is in front of two parking
spots (which are reserved for electric vehicles), has two cables, and the
cables are too short to reach to any other parking spots.

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mdorazio
I see this is partially a failing on the part of OEMs. Tesla is the only
manufacturer that has actively built charging stations, or even ponied up
money for others to do so. Everyone else is happy to market and sell electric
vehicles, but leave the problem of charging to sort itself out.

~~~
gohrt
How many ICE manufcaturers build gas stations?

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infecto
Did anyone else notice the "survival package" numbers?

Base package costs $15.99 * 9,000 units = $143,910. Wow....

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frakkingcylons

      Jamie Hull, who drives an electric Fiat, grew apoplectic recently when she discovered herself nearly out of a charge, unable to get home to Palo Alto. She found a charging station, but a Tesla was  parked in it and not charging. She ordered a coffee, waited for the driver to return and, when he did, asked why he was taking a spot when he was not charging. She said the man had told her that he   was going to run one more errand and walked off.
    
      “I seriously considered keying his car,” she said.
    
    

That's not okay. Damaging someone else's property because they were being
inconsiderate isn't acceptable.

~~~
gohrt
Why is damaging someone's paint job less acceptable than blocking someone's
ride home?

A person could wave a key in the part of the world where the Tesla has no
right to be, and the Tesla owner is responsible for making contact with the
key.

~~~
hueving
Or they could fire a gun towards the driver seat when he gets back in the car.
Not supposed to be there, right? Do you see how stupid that reasoning is? Just
because someone is out of place is not free reign to break the law.

Also, blocking someone's ride is not damaging property AND this lady is
equally at fault for making her path home depend on on charger. What if a car
was plugged into that spot? She would have nobody else to blame for her poor
planning.

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steffenfrost
Autonomous vehicles with inductive charging will solve this problem. Tell your
car to charge then park itself, and have it come pick you up when you're
ready. It's going to be awesome.

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schwap
> “EV charging spaces are functional reserve spaces, just like disabled
> drivers spaces.”

For some reason I can't see that eliciting much empathy.

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worik
Paywalled

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ck2
Unplugging someone else's car - well that is exactly what I would expect from
the American public - actually that is the more mild case.

Can you imagine what would happen in the city?

Kids will be shorting out your car and watching it burn just for fun (or
blowing a very expensive fuse).

Since gas caps are (mildly) locked, why aren't charger locked into the cars?

~~~
OopsCriticality
The charging cables do lock on many electric cars: some models unlock when
charging is done, others only when the doors are unlocked.

~~~
tigeba
The 2013 and newer Leafs have a variety of options for this. The default
"automatic" mode behavior is to lock the plug when charging then unlock when
charging is complete. Not totally sure if you can unlock the charger.

