
Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden - teawithcarl
http://www.correntewire.com/six_reasons_why_choosing_hong_kong_is_a_brilliant_move_by_edward_snowden
======
gruseom
This is by far the most informative [edit: if speculative] article I've read
on Snowden's choice of Hong Kong, which has been the most puzzling detail of
the whole story. If true, it explains a lot, not just about why he chose Hong
Kong but also about his subsequent interview with the press there. Can HNers
who know Hong Kong shed light on how plausible it is?

It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valuable than all the
media speculation on this question (that I've seen) put together. That doesn't
make its interpretation true, of course. But the alternate explanation that
was going through my head seems a bit movie-esque by comparison.

~~~
leephillips
"It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valuable than all the
media speculation on this question (that I've seen) put together."

Perhaps this still qualifies as striking, but it's becoming rapidly more
common, as mainstream journalism becomes ever more predictable and imitative,
and individuals with expertise and actual insight, not working for news
organizations, stand out as the only voices worth paying attention to.

~~~
SkyMarshal
Exactly. Blogging allows subject matter experts to easily, cheaply publish, be
widely read, and compete for eyeballs with the MSM.

There's no way most people who just went to Journalism school can compete
with, say, an experienced Constitutional lawyer like Greenwald or Lessig, or
hacker like PG or Spolsky, or VC like Fred Wilson etc.

But there are some things MSM can still do - good professional journalists can
still round up experts and put together a composite of their views. Or they do
real investigative journalism that bloggers may not have the resources for, be
it Bloomberg suing the Federal Reserve under FOIA [1], or sending reporters to
hotspots for first-hand reporting.

Personally I think a combination of data journalism and investigative
journalism (like WaPo's Top Secret America [2] and Bloomberg's FOIA lawsuit
and reporting) are their best way forward. Both require resources most
individual bloggers can't provide, and both are real news, real journalism.

[1]: [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-23/fed-s-once-
secret-d...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-23/fed-s-once-secret-data-
compiled-by-bloomberg-released-to-public.html)

[2]: [http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-
america/](http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/)

~~~
leephillips
I agree with all your points absolutely. The best reporting and
photojournalism in the _New York Times_ and other real newspapers is worthy of
tremendous admiration; fortunately they still have the resources to put
correspondents all over the world. My comment was not meant to suggest that we
can dispense with the MSM, and I don't agree with the replies below that seem
to advocate this.

------
skue
There is another big reason why Snowden may have chosen HK. A few months ago
the HK high court ruled that the process for applying for asylum needs
overhaul, and until that happens all extradition proceedings for asylum
seekers are on hold. So Snowden simply needs to apply for asylum in HK to
significantly delay things:

[http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-
pacific...](http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-
pacific/china/130610/why-edward-snowden-hong-kong-extradition-asylum)

I haven't seen much coverage of this in the US press, aside from Slate & CSM.
The rest of the media seems more interested in Snowden's girlfriend and
scholastic record instead (sigh).

~~~
akirk
I was about to ask, how he would deal with staying, as you can't simply choose
a country but must conform to its visa regulations. He might be there as a
tourist for now but I would think that cannot do so forever.

------
RoboTeddy
The graphic in the article is downscaled -- here's the direct link:
[https://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/2013/06/14/snowden-...](https://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/2013/06/14/snowden-
extradiction-web.jpg)

------
nikcub
You can also sneak out of Hong Kong easily, and it is an hour ferry ride a to
Macau or Guangzhou or a bus or taxi ride to Shenzen.

Hong Kong has very loose exit visa policies on western passports. You can jump
on a plane to some destinations with your passport only being checked at
checkin (which is of the ticket). It is very simple to get to any number of
~50 countries in the space of hours and not having your identity checked until
you land.

Private banking in Hong Kong means he can have money sent to him and he can
spend money without worrying about who finds out who supports him.

He is also likely to find work, since there is a lot of English speaking expat
work in the country especially in the IT industry.

I'm unsure if he has a path to citizenship, a path to residency is easy but I
think the only way he could swap his passport is if he works out an entire 4
or 5 year residency or go citizenship via asylum.

~~~
matthewrudy
This isn't true. At the airport there is a passport check after security. At
Hung Hom train station the same. At all the China land borders things are
pretty strict.

Most smugglers go through Sha Tau Kok in the north east, but you need a permit
to even enter that area.

~~~
agilebyte
Can one take a swim/use an inflatable at night undetected?

------
steve19
Somewhat disingenuous to suggest swapping sim cards to avoid being tracked.
This myth is one that law enforcement love. They just track phones with IMEI
numbers.

~~~
alextingle
Because nobody sells phone for cash, right?

~~~
kissickas
GP still has a valid point, SIM card swapping as mentioned in the article is
not track-proof.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Well fine there's cloning a phone, setting a bogus or duplicate IMEI, or
simply buying cheap throw-away phones. Here, have a look at a really terribly
done video of one electronics market in HK. One of many.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxTR5X0PIP4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxTR5X0PIP4)

------
Stupendous
I live in Hong Kong too (about 20 minutes walk from the Mira where Snowden was
allegedly staying), and his stated reasons of coming here due to the country's
commitment to free speech and political dissent are baffling and misguided.
When compared to China, Hong Kong seems free but the reality is very
different.

Start with the South China Morning Post, the main English language newspaper
here which has been covering this story extensively. The current editor, Wang
Xiangwei, joined in 2011, is a member of the Chinese People's Political
Consultative Congress, and has been criticized for self-censorship multiple
times since taking over.

Then you have the political system here, where people can vote in local
elections but not in the main election that actually decides the Chief
Executive (President). The current CE, CY Leung, was dogged by accusations
that he was a Communist Party member throughout the election period. These
accusations were not without merit given his political history (appointed to a
prominent committee at a young age, a position traditionally occupied by party
members), and these issues have not died down since he's taken office.

It makes no sense for Snowden to have come to HK for its political freedom.
Neither is this city a hotbed for political dissent. The Occupy movement here
was largely ineffective (there were often more homeless people than protestors
at the camp), and power here is concentrated in the elite (HK has one of the
highest Gini coefficients in the world).

He came here because here he can leverage China vs the US. Any talk of
political freedom or appreciating the culture is pure fluff.

~~~
meric
There is a lot of perceived political freedom from people outside of Hong Kong
(both people in US as well as in China - why else would Chinese dissenters
travel to Hong Kong to protest?). By declaring Hong Kong has political
freedom, China is forced to defend that image, both domestically and
internationally. I am from Hong Kong, so I know what you're talking about, but
I'm currently living outside of Hong Kong, so I know what foreigners'
perspective of Hong Kong is, too.

------
jsnk
Fourth point about Hong Kong being under China probably has a significant
effect that public cannot know about to full extent.

It's not a outright conspiracy to believe that there's a largely hidden but
real power struggle between US and China. China probably likes the fact that
Snowden has brought NSA and US government into public scrutiny and they are
probably plotting a way to make the best out of it.

~~~
gbog
I don't think so. China has so many problems, it's government always preferred
the status quo, anything new like this is considered a threat to political
stability: imagine if a few Chinese decided to go Snowden way?

~~~
pyre
It can be spun other ways too. Snowden could be heralded as "proof" that China
is better than the US.

    
    
      "US citizen flees oppressive government, seeking refuge
       in China."
    

I'm sure that this incident will also enter the lexicon of North Korea when
they try to bring up the bad things that US has/may have done in order to
justify their own actions.

~~~
gbog
Do you think that Chinese are _that_ stupid? They all know their wealthy elite
send kids and wife to the US, why would they do that if China was better?

~~~
pyre
The way that I understand it, a lot of the propaganda that the Chinese see in
the media is known to be propaganda (i.e. it's not fooling anyone). Why would
this be any different?

------
STRML
I live in Hong Kong, and can verify that it is absolutely a technologist's
paradise and an extremely easy place to move around in.

Phones are incredibly cheap; the cheapest functional Android knockoff
smartphones will run you about $50-80 (all prices in USD for simplicity),
maybe less if you get it in Kowloon. "Burner"-style phones can be as low as
$8. SIM cards are essentially free (usually about $8-10 deposit on the card)
and minutes are as lower than $0.01 each[1]. Data is about $5/GB prepaid. All
cash, no credit cards, no checks. You don't even have to give them your name.

Coverage is completely universal here because the density is absurd. It's a
cell phone carrier's dream; one tower can potentially reach nearly a million
people. Taxi drivers here regularly have half a dozen cell phones in their
cars. One for personal use, one for work, one for less savory work... who
knows, there is always a lot going on, especially in relation to gambling.

Additionally, the broadband is great (and cheap) - I regularly get as much as
250mbps or more to the US from my home connection. I can say with confidence
that I browse US sites more quickly from here than I could from my home
connection when I lived in the states. The ping is of course higher but it is
not as bad as you'd think (150-180ms).

There are great technology centers like Cyberport[2] that will rent you a desk
or tiny office with gigabit internet for very little money.

It is easy to disappear in HK because it is so dense. While housing is not
cheap it is available and some landlords will take cash. Being white earns you
stares here, it is well known that the Chinese suffer from the same problem we
do; it is difficult to tell white people apart, much like we may find it
difficult to tell some ethnic Chinese apart. I am speculating but it could be
used to his advantage: with a hairstyle change and contact lenses it would be
difficult for a US citizen to identify Snowden, going only on the news photos.
It would be even harder for a foreigner. That is, if the novelty of seeing a
young nerdy white man doesn't arouse suspicion alone.

Members of the expat community have been setting up rallies for Snowden and
they have been getting decent attendance. The South China Morning Post has
been very favorable in their framing of his actions. I think the populace here
is very sympathetic to his plight.

As for the legal system, I can't comment; I just work here, man.

[1] Keep in mind, prices are in HKD - 1USD = 7.76 HKD.
[http://one2free.hkcsl.com/jsp/prepaid_sim_card/o2f_local_pre...](http://one2free.hkcsl.com/jsp/prepaid_sim_card/o2f_local_prepaid_sim/charges/charges.jsp)

[2] [http://www.cyberport.hk/en](http://www.cyberport.hk/en)

~~~
beachstartup
yeah

to cut straight to the chase

a special administrative region of the people's republic of china is actually
more free than the USA.

~~~
D_Alex
Dunno about "free", but what really bothers me is that someone decided to seek
asylum from the US.

US used to be the gold standard in democracy and justice.

~~~
nemof
The US has only ever been the gold standard to itself, it's a nice story to
tell the kids as you tuck them in for the night, but it's just not true.

~~~
diminoten
The US doesn't ban hate speech at least, so in that respect it's freer than a
lot of other countries.

------
kragen
Author says, "Budding spies and others of a paranoid nature can buy a couple
of those SIM cards to swap in and out of their (unlocked) phones for $10 in
any 7-11, no registration, no questions asked (try doing that in India or
Argentina!)"

I don't live in India, but I do live in Argentina, and there are guys selling
SIM cards on the subway and outside the train stations for, I think, AR$5,
which is about US$0.76. No registration, no questions asked. If you instead go
to a cellphone store, not only do you need to register, but they want ID.

I suspect that India is porous enough that there are similar holes in whatever
controls they have to require registration.

I don't get 250Mbps in my house though; maybe 1Mbps to the US. And the murder
rate is a little higher than in the US.

~~~
kragen
Update: I asked the blind guy selling SIMs on the subway today how much they
cost. The price has gone up to AR$10, which is currently about US$1.20.

------
tokenadult
I think Snowden didn't have a lot of choices of places to fly to from Hawaii,
where he was last based.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5854562](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5854562)

Some of the rationales for being in Hong Kong we see attributed to interview
statements by him sound like statements by a person who knows a lot less about
east Asia than he thinks he knows. In the six years that I lived in east Asia,
all spent there after first learning the history, language, and culture of
China thoroughly by university studies and independent reading and
participation in foreign student clubs before going over, I grew quite tired
of instant experts on Asia who can't even speak any local language. Snowden
made the move he could make when he decided to leave his employment at Booz
Allen Hamilton, but it's not clear that his move was "brilliant" or even very
thought out at all.

~~~
einhverfr
I want to explain why I think you are wrong in terms of it being thought out.
I think it was very carefully thought out and it fit into his plans very well.
Whether it was "brilliant" or not I suppose depends on what you think of the
game he is playing.

If you carefully look at Snowden's actions and his statements to various press
establishments, his entire strategy is based on playing one group off another.
He got the Washington Post to publish a story on Prism by getting the Guardian
to run one on the Verizon warrants, for example. If you look carefully he is
doing the same thing regarding Hong Kong.

1\. He went to Hong Kong and immediately made provocative statements about the
commitment of the special administrative province to the rule of law and to
political dissent. _This does not mean he believes that this is the nature of
things._ What these statements immediately did was put the image of Hong
Kong's independence at risk of Bejing comes in too forcefully.

2\. He then makes a number of statements about US intelligence activity which,
quite frankly, everyone would probably assume to be the case anyway (hacking
Chinese internet backbones etc). This creates a US vs China dynamic and shows
that he can be a danger to the US if the US does not back off.

In essence what he has done has been tailored around Hong Kong specifically.
He has chosen somewhere to make a stand that fits his strategy, nothing more
and nothing less.

~~~
Sven7
Sounds more like a typical 29 year old to me. Doesn't have a retirement plan.

~~~
einhverfr
29-year-olds think differently than 39-year-olds. He's probably more focused
on the details, than the next 40 years.

------
crazygringo
I'm curious... is there anything currently preventing him from flying to a
further country as well? I'm not aware of there being a warrant out for his
arrest or anything yet... What would happen today if he just hopped on the
next flight to Iceland or Ecuador or wherever else (or let's just assume
nonstop flights)?

~~~
anologwintermut
Apparently INTERPOL can issue red notices that are not public. So its possible
if he tried to leave Hong Kong under his own ID he'd get arrested.

I assume he doesn't have a real forged passport. But how hard do they check
for leaving Hong Kong? Could he get to Iceland and instead of trying to fool
Icelandic passport control, just request asylum?

~~~
XorNot
Pretty hard?

China has steep controls on its _own_ citizens leaving China. Hong Kong is now
part of China, and probably a favoured way out.

~~~
pyre
Travel between HK and 'mainland' China regulated, as I understand it. It's
possible that China is looking more closely to that border as an escape point
than people leaving HK.

~~~
XorNot
"Closely" is a relative term when it comes to airport. I'd think Chinese
intelligence would be paying very close attention to someone who the US wants
to arrest within their borders, seeing as how it impacts relations with their
biggest trading partner.

~~~
pyre
Maybe so far as Snowden is concerned, but the comment I was replying to was
talking in more general terms (i.e. Chinese citizens using HK to flee from
China).

------
rdl
I actually don't think Hong Kong was a great choice, as it brings up the whole
question of foreign intelligence service involvement. He absolutely should
have picked a common law jurisdiction (like Hong Kong), and probably not
US/UK/Canada, but NZ would have worked pretty well.

He's not "in hiding" from the intelligence services. I suspect even second
tier countries know where he is.

~~~
toyg
I'm sure Kim Dotcom thought his move to NZ had "worked pretty well".

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
It did. It wasn't without it's hiccups. But, there he is in NZ still doing two
things that he apparently loves to do, trolling and making money.

~~~
toyg
He trolls Hollywood interests, Snowden is effectively trolling the whole US
government; the difference is of some importance.

NZ was in the original Echelon program, in terms of intelligence they fall
squarely in line with GCHQ and friends. It's really one of the worst locations
he could choose, right after the US and Britain.

~~~
jahmed
Hong Kong also does not have a CIA/NSA/GCHQ/MI-6/MSS type agency. Your
statement make me think Snowden saw the level of cooperation on the intel side
and picked someone without a horse in the race.

~~~
rdl
Everyone is active in Hong Kong, and the Chinese military and intelligence
organizations are the "home team".

------
rld
> Budding spies and others of a paranoid nature can buy a couple of those SIM
> cards to swap in and out of their (unlocked) phones for $10 in any 7-11, no
> registration, no questions asked (try doing that in India or Argentina!)

Argentine here, you can buy SIM cards literally everywhere. Vendors will even
sell them to you on trains.

~~~
contingencies
Logging on to GSM your phone uploads its IMEI ('phone serial number') with the
SIM card identifier or IMSI ('sim ID'). So if you switch, you are still
tracked. Budding spies will learn their tech before putting their ass on the
line.

~~~
sporkologist
As mentioned further up these comments, IMEI's can be forged, and phones
produced "off-hours" in the factories often have IMEI's consisting of all 0's
or all 1's. I gleaned this much just from reading this thread.

~~~
contingencies
Sure. Also, according to recent quotes from Snowden, this is the primary
mobile communciations key the NSA maintain records and search by... not phone
number.

------
intelliot
Ron Paul has specifically mentioned two places as having more liberty (in
certain ways) than the US: Switzerland and Hong Kong.

------
reiichiroh
It's strange the Falun Gong paper Epoch Times hasn't written more about this
case.

------
avn2109
Is there any hard evidence that ES is actually in Hong Kong? It seems to be
widely accepted that he is, though I'm not familiar with the evidence in favor
of this claim.

------
vph
Brilliant move, maybe, unless he was manipulated by the Chinese. It is very
interesting that the allegation that the NSA has been hacking into Chinese
systems came out at the time when the US and China are meeting and Obama is
trying to admonish the Chinese on hacking.

It would be interesting to explore if Edward Snowden has any handler. And how
exactly he chose Hong Kong and decided to reveal that the NSA has been hacking
the Chinese.

~~~
vidarh
It is "very interesting" in the sense that Snowden may have realised that
strategically talking to Chinese press and leaking information that would be
likely to be looked upon favorably by the Chinese government at this time
would be likely to be beneficial to his chances of avoiding extradition in the
future.

I'm not sure what you are trying to imply - the choice and timing of that
particular leak would seem to be a logical choice once he'd chosen somewhere
to go.

~~~
vph
If he is afraid of being charged in the US, I would think he wouldn't have
done this in the first place. Initially, it is said he did this because he
cared about Americans. But by working with the Chinese, he is no longer a
patriot in the eyes of many Americans. Overall, it appears like he was
manipulated or at least fueled by the Chinese operatives.

------
ericfong
Born in Hong Kong. Personally don't think Hong Kong is that safe and has such
freedom. But may be good for his case. As China like to see him exists...

------
sandGorgon
I dont get it - every one of those factors is present in India as well (with a
few compromises on bandwidth I'll admit).

If the article makes a case that in Hong Kong people _can_ take to the
streets, it so happens that they _did_ in Delhi [1]. Hell, India has a
superior record of amnesty than most other countries [2].

Plus, the tech work scene is undoubtedly better in India as well as .... um...
not being 100% undemocratic.

I personally am of the opinion that one of the big reasons could be that the
pay is potentially better in Hong Kong - especially for someone from Booz
Allen.

[1]
[http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2013/0315/Reacti...](http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2013/0315/Reactions-
to-Steubenville-Ohio-and-India-gang-rapes-show-India-isn-t-so-backward) [2]
[http://www.unhcr.org/50001ec69.html](http://www.unhcr.org/50001ec69.html)

~~~
stbtrax
Is there access to uninterrupted electricity?

------
Apocryphon
I've been thinking of alternative destinations. New Zealand, home of exile Kim
Dotcom, could work. But what about Sweden? Aren't they very neutral? Or
Switzerland, the nation that's synonymous with neutrality?

~~~
toyg
Are you serious?

New Zealand is the land of night-raids on Kim Dotcom's home to please American
corporations -- not exactly a prime candidate.

Sweden is the country currently responsible for Assange's plight.

Switzerland, as I said elsewhere, is now an EU state in all but name, and
their security services are laughable anyway.

What Snowden needs is not "neutrality" in a Cold-War sense. Strictly speaking,
no government will ever defend the ideas he's fighting for; he can only choose
the lesser evil, the place where he gets the most leverage out of his stance
(i.e. most non-US-friendly nations) without losing his rights (i.e. most
democratically-run nations with a respectable legal system). There's only a
handful of countries in this peculiar intersection, and HK is definitely one
of them.

~~~
pyre

      > New Zealand is the land of night-raids on Kim
      > Dotcom's home to please American corporations
      > -- not exactly a prime candidate.
    

That has caused a bunch of blow-back in NZ though. I'd say it's up in the air
as to whether or not another such incident will occur.

~~~
toyg
Yes, but I don't see NZ ever abandoning their strategic intelligence alliance
with US and UK (which produced, among other things, the original Echelon).
Blowback all you want, Snowden would still be sent straight to Washington.

~~~
throwawayyyyyy
new zealand gave the big F U to the USA back in the 80s when they refused the
USS Buchanan nuclear powered destroyer entry to the port as it violated the
nuclear-free legislation.

~~~
pyre
Harbouring Snowden would probably create a lot more tension than just refusing
a port entry to a specific boat, though I don't know the rest of the context
of that incident.

------
fspeech
A warrant may never even be issued, since if he is arrested Hongkong police
will be duty bound to turn over anything of national security interest to
Beijing. Yeah it is a pretty sharp move.

------
gboone42
This still doesn't explain why he didn't choose a country with no possibility
of extradition like, uh, any of these:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_S...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_States#Countries_with_diplomatic_relations_but_no_extradition_treaty)

They may not be technological paradises, but it's pretty hard (nearly
impossible) to be extradited to the US from any of them.

~~~
rdouble
He did. China is on that list. Hong Kong is China.

~~~
gboone42
Right, it is but it isn't. The whole point of the piece is that because of
HK's complicated relationship with China it makes extradition possible, just
very hard. I guess my point is, why not Shanghai? I'm sure the PRC would love
the opportunity to grand asylum to an Internet freedom activist.

~~~
rdouble
My opinion is that he didn't really think it through that far, but that seems
to be an unpopular thing to say on HN.

------
adventured
"Nobody stands to win by taking decisive action on Snowden, so my guess, based
on years of living in Hong Kong, is that both Beijing and Hong Kong will avoid
doing so, which heightens the possiblity of a long, long court process."

That depends on how badly the US wants him. If they want him badly enough,
they'll buy him from China with an offering big enough to create a winner.
That would be trivial for the US to do - they could have Snowden back in a few
days - but the price might be very high.

~~~
rhizome
Like movies, do you?

~~~
adventured
Taiwan

Would that do? Yep, I think it would. Perhaps even just the substantial delay
of new arms sales. It's meant as a black and white example, but it proves my
point. There are countless things the US could give China that are worth a lot
more to China than Snowden is.

Your comment is comical in its lack of realism. And that's comical because
you're alluding to me being the unrealistic one. In reality, politics is a
game of buying or trading favors. It's that simple, and it works that way
locally or internationally.

~~~
rhizome
If it's that simple, you'll have no trouble coming up with historical examples
of the mechanism you describe having operated with the simplicity you assert.

~~~
scarmig
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentages_agreement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentages_agreement)

Or, if that doesn't suit your fancy, any of the WWII dealings among the Allies
about how things would be divied up.

------
dnr
The question I've been wondering about is how he'll get money to live on.
Presumably it won't be long before the US will freeze his bank accounts, if
they haven't already.

Has he set up offshore bank accounts in advance? Won't they get frozen too?

Is he planning on working in HK? He probably doesn't have a visa that allows
working, and switching visas usually requires leaving the country. He's too
well-known now to work under the table.

Did he carry huge amounts of cash?

------
jcoder
The commentary about swapping SIMs and fast 'net puzzles me. If someone in
Snowden's position wants to avoid tracking, given the leaked information that
is __the very reason __he is wanted, I would think the safest tactic is to
eschew personal devices and 'net usage entirely.

------
_k
My guess is someone gave him advice on it because at first sight Hong Kong
isn't the most obvious choice at all. The infographic explains how it all
works but if someone had asked me something like that, I wouldn't even be able
to answer it for my own country.

~~~
toyg
It's 2013, we have the internets, 24/7 news and no end of sources on
everything related to politics of any country on the planet.

If something you don't know becomes vital to a project you're planning, you
fire up Google every day for a few hours and learn what's going on. It's clear
he didn't leak on a whim: he planned it over a certain period of time and,
being a smart fellow, had all the time in the world to read up on the fine
points of US international diplomacy, which would significantly narrow down
his research pool on extradition systems.

------
frozenport
Especially if he is a Chinese spy. Because bragging about Hong Kong freedom's
sounds like a cold war farce.

~~~
MichaelLouis
I thought that I was the only person that considered that a possibility.

------
spitx
CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket:

    
    
      "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., 
      or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people 
      who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break
      the law and suffer the consequences."
    
      "That's a little different than putting the nation's
      security at risk and running away."
    
      "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young
      man who has decided he is smarter than the rest of us"
    
       "I don't know what he is beyond that. But he is no hero.
       If he has a point — which I'm not sure he does — he
       would help his cause by voluntarily coming home to face
       the consequences."
    

Source:

Schieffer to Snowden: Come home, face the consequences

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5-r6mw6nQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5-r6mw6nQ)

~~~
msg
Martin Luther King didn't live in a world where we imprison innocent men in
legal limbo without trial or habeas corpus, or where we officially sanctioned
torture and the oubliette. He could trust that he would be vindicated by the
justice system.

The whole point of the Snowden story is that the government is not trustworthy
in this era. I would not trust the US government to give him justice any more
than they did Aaron Swartz.

I think Snowden knew exactly what to expect if he "faced the music" and
exactly how much attention he could keep on his story in exile.

~~~
rayiner
Its this sort of uneducated, a-historical crap that makes it impossible to
read HN lately. If you think the government was less scary back then, in the
grip of anti-communist paranoia, you're insane, deluded, or just plain
uneducated. Saying that MLK could count on a fair shake from a justice system
that didn't give any minority a fair shake back then, much less political
radicals, is the height of ridiculousness.

~~~
pg
You don't need to resort to insults.

~~~
tptacek
HN has been especially frustrating for the last 2 weeks.

Maybe, instead of hoping that people will maintain perfect civility throughout
a nonstop stream of political discussions, something could instead be done to
ratchet back the politics on HN?

~~~
jessaustin
Perhaps _reality_ has been especially frustrating?

Although yeah, implying that blacks in the American South in the mid-20th C
could rely on the justice system is ridiculous enough to force me to agree
with rayiner for once.

------
dfc
_Since we lack space and spend lots of time cooped up in small rooms, we have
taken to the virtual world like ducks to water_

Sounds awesome, you have to love a lack of options.

