
Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me. - jgrahamc
http://blog.jgc.org/2012/03/call-yourself-brogrammer-then-get-hell.html
======
DarkShikari
From Urban Dictionary:

 _brogrammer, n.: A programmer who breaks the usual expectations of quiet
nerdiness and opts instead for the usual trappings of a frat-boy: popped
collars, bad beer, and calling everybody "bro". Despised by everyone,
especially other programmers.

Ex: Oh my god, John is talking about football and chicks again. That guy is
such a brogrammer.

See also: programmer, frat boy, bro, douchebag, developer_

This is not a good stereotype to conjure up, even in some ironic-parody-
hipster sense.

It isn't a joke, either; I've definitely seen programmers where I've worked
who _really do_ act like that -- and they are like toxin for introverted
programmers. Most other programmers probably don't appreciate a "bro"
constantly talking about his sexual conquests instead of interesting technical
topics or hobbies.

~~~
lizzard
Hipster irony that sounds and behaves exactly like actual misogyny, as far as
I'm concerned, _is_ actual misogyny.

A lot of bigotry and exclusionary behavior is couched in terms of being "just
a joke".

------
gruseom
This is a toxic side-effect of a healthy thing: the rise in status of
programming work.

In the dotcom boom, douchebags didn't program, they did MBAs and took for
granted that as "business guys" they would have the lion's share of wealth and
status just for being who they were. That many of them now feel compelled to
join the profession their forebears saw as underlings and learn to actually do
real work, while many of the rest are pleading for technical cofounders, are
signs of a major shift.

Remember that video that did the rounds on HN a year or two ago about the
Valley in the 70s? A typical technical cofounder would end up with 2%
ownership and zero control. Compare that to Mark Zuckerberg retaining control
of Facebook and extolling "the hacker way" in an SEC filing. It's a massive
change in the right direction, and most of it has happened in the last 15
years and it's still accelerating. It will be interesting to see the social
consequences. Annoying epiphenomena like "brogrammers" are inevitable, but
deeper changes are the ones to watch for.

------
_delirium
Huh, I had thought the "brogrammer" thing was a parody, not a serious self-
description. I usually run across variants of the descriptor "bro-ish" as
derogatory, not something people actually want to call themselves; for
example, "brostep" is a derogatory term for a subgenre of dubstep that dubstep
purists don't like, not something people proudly call their own music. But I'm
admittedly totally out of this particular loop.

~~~
potatolicious
I thought so too, but the word I hear from people I know at Facebook (where
the term originated) indicate that the people who started this are pretty dead
serious about the concept.

Thankfully I work with no brogrammers - this might actually start being a
hiring _disadvantage_ if companies are known to be brogrammer-heavy.

~~~
aValidUserName
It's a very useful indicator that the company is looking to hire barely-
sentient PHP monkeys rather than actual programmers to solve interesting
problems.

~~~
pbiggar
I've never heard that about Facebook, only the opposite: they hire awesome
programmers, and then teach them PHP. Certainly, any Facebook developers I've
met (online or in real life) have been pretty awesome, though my sample size
is in the single digits.

~~~
aValidUserName
Interesting. I wasn't referring specifically to Facebook, btw, and I've never
seen Facebook mention "brogrammers" in their job postings.

Do they self-identify as "brogrammers?" If so, did they do so before joining
Facebook or only after the fact?

The self-described bro in the linked article appears to only "program" in PHP
according to his own website, so I think my assumption that he's just a monkey
is fair.

------
goldmab
Why are people so angry? It seems like these guys are mostly just acting
silly. I don't think it's particularly interesting or funny or whatever, but
that's no reason to be _mad_ at them.

~~~
codeonfire
There has always been a problem in STEM jobs where people try to use social
manipulation rather than technical achievement to get ahead. With brogrammer,
people are trying to convince employers to exclude certain classes of
employees such as women or non-social people. Then it becomes a race to the
bottom of who fits the stereotype the best rather than rhe most qualified, and
technical people end up taking orders from popped-collar types with no
technical skills. This is not a joke, and there is a very real reason people
are doing this.

~~~
cop359
I think you've got it backwards. There is definitely a degree of pride
associated with being nerdy and non-social to the exclusion of "brogrammers".

Try getting a technical job as with a popped collar. Even if you are
technically very proficient, there is stigma and distrust from people like the
author of the article

~~~
doktrin
It's hardly irrational to distrust someone clueless enough to go into a job
interview with a popped collar. This isn't really limited to the tech world.

------
jiggy2011
This is nothing new, back in ~2004 when I was at university for CS there were
plenty of students who were desperate to shed the "nerdy" image and would
compensate taking up macho hobbies like bodybuilding , playing metal music,
martial arts or motorcycling or by drinking large amounts and getting high
every weekend.

The whole brogrammer meme reminds me a lot of DHH. Whenever you see him speak
he is always dressed and groomed well and fashionably , likes to swear a lot
and has a keen interest in fast cars.

It also reminds me of the sorts of people who are into PUA manuals.

~~~
_bbs
Is there really a problem with nerds being groomed well and fashionably
dressed? The people they describe are off-putting because of their attitude,
not because their appearance clashes with the archetypal image of a nerd.

~~~
jessedhillon
What's common with all those behaviors he described is that the way they are
usually carried, and the predictable "maleness" with which they are chosen,
create an air of trying way too hard -- this is something I defintely
experience when meeting many programmers. The irony is that the most defining
characteristic of authentic masculinity, for most women I know, is the sense
that a man believes in hemself and does what feels right for him. Taking up a
bunch of stereotypically male activities for the sake of appearing more male
is exactly the opposite of that. It's as if the new practitioner looked around
and saw what "successful" guys are doing -- dressing well and riding
motorcycles -- and decided to copy the outward appearances without
understanding why those patterns exist.

~~~
Tycho
So does that mean femininity does not entail belief in one's self and doing
what feels right?

~~~
jessedhillon
Only if you think femininity is the set of all things not masculine.

~~~
Tycho
So why would two factors common to both femininity and masculinity be
something that women focus on to represent true masculinity. It doesn't make
any sense.

This is nothing more than the propagation of an _un_ idea that people tolerate
because it doesn't make any value judgements about either gender, or
something.

------
cbo
First, let's be clear that the term "brogrammer", tongue-in-cheek or not, is
downright misogynistic.

But equally problematic are the common beliefs that spawned the term in the
first place; that programmers must always be obsessed with technology above
all else, and to appreciate things like sports, fashion, or fast cars is
somehow "bad" or "uncommon" for programmers.

There are a whole host of programmers who despise guys like DHH for enjoying
fashion and cars. They seem to believe that somehow, those traits detract from
his skill or significance as a programmer. That Rails is a "bad" or
"fashionable" framework because of those things and is thus to be avoided.
This kind of thinking is just plain ridiculous.

The spectrum on programming ranges from a hobby, to a career, even to the
lengths of an obsession. But no one should be expected to act like the "norm".
A programmer that cares more about the latest Ferrari than the latest web
framework is not necessarily an undesirable programmer. They're just a
programmer with different interests, and no one should be treating them
differently because of that.

~~~
Vergle
At the first sentence I was like "..really?" then you were like "DHH ...
enjoys fashion" and my head exploded. He dresses like a high school kid.

~~~
Aloisius
We must realize that Ed Hardy under button up shirts two sizes too large is
considered fashionable by some people. I've never met them, but I'm sure they
exist.

------
jmduke
This isn't high school; there's nothing productive or rational about assigning
labels to yourself or others. Judge someone by the quality of their work and
the output of their lives, not how they dress or the culture they associate
themselves with.

~~~
chc
This sounds nice and everything, but actually, there's a lot that's productive
and rational about assigning labels to yourself and others. If you needed to
carefully evaluate the sum of every participant's life before every
interaction (rather than caching the result of that evaluation in a set of
labels), you would be paralyzed. Humans simply don't have the mental capacity
to constantly think that deeply about everything. If you tell yourself you
don't ever assign labels, at least in your head, you're either deceiving
yourself or you're a Buddha.

~~~
jmduke
Absolutely. But there's a difference between subconsciously creating labels in
your head and writing blog posts about subcultures.

------
sjtgraham
I actually have "Polyglot Brogrammer" as my headline on LinkedIn in the hope
that recruiters leave me alone. It hasn't worked.

~~~
endlessvoid94
If you're trying to get recruiters to leave you alone, why are you using
LinkedIn?

~~~
sjtgraham
This implies that the only use of LinkedIn is to be courted by recruiters.

------
ilamont
FWIW, only 17 people turned up in a people search for "brogrammer" in
LinkedIn:

[http://www.linkedin.com/search/fpsearch?type=people&keyw...](http://www.linkedin.com/search/fpsearch?type=people&keywords=brogrammer&pplSearchOrigin=GLHD&pageKey=anet_about&search=Search)

That compares with more than 914,000 results for a people search of
"programmer"

~~~
alexholehouse
To be honest, I can't think of any bigger red flag on a LinkedIn profile than
being a self-declared brogrammer.

~~~
MattRogish
Actually this is awesome. I now know exactly who not to hire. Please,
brogrammers unite! You have nothing to lose... except working with me! :)

------
wisty
The problem with "bro" culture is its narcissistic conformism. I guess they
are really looking for an excuse to behave badly. They know they are being
assholes, so they manufacture a social environment in which they are
encouraged to be assholes.

So listen, bros:

If you want to get drunk, and hit on chicks, that's your choice. But don't
give in to peer pressure, and don't pressure your mates. Just be yourself.

------
jroseattle
Pretty sure the entire brogrammer meme was meant tongue-in-cheek, and humor
aimed directly at developers. Besides, anyone who might actually carry on in
brogrammer style would soon learn the acronym CLM -- career limiting maneuver.

~~~
oacgnol
Agree. I don't see how you could take "brogramming" seriously, it's just a
meme. At my company it's a running joke.

That said, if you do happen to meet someone who takes it seriously and lives
that "life", then they're dumber than you think they are.

~~~
WiseWeasel
If that was the best social solution they could find, do you really want them
near your codebase in any case? : P

------
GFKjunior
Here is a pic of the guy who said the line about the girls in the hot tub.

<http://danilo.ariadoss.com/about/>

Pretty much exactly what I expected.

~~~
rmangi
Nobody who's published an RPG based on Harry Potter can refer to himself as
"bro".

------
feedbackloop
One thing I've always liked about programming is the technical culture of
getting things done. What offends me about this 'brogrammer' idea is that it
tries to turn programming into yet another fashion.

"We're the cool programmers" is particularly offensive because it alienates
people who have been doing work in this area for some time.

I can understand wanting to refine your image but do it without slapping
labels on something that belongs to many people, not just you.

~~~
jiggy2011
Perhaps it's a way of asserting some sort of superiority if you discover that
you are really just a mediocre programmer.

Like saying "I don't understand haskell but that's cool because I can totally
bong a bear unlike you losers"

~~~
eli_gottlieb
But most Real programmers don't understand Haskell either. Every time someone
succeeds in understanding Haskell, an alarm rings by SPJ's bed, signaling him
to publish another semantic and type-system extension to GHC.

------
cop359
As someone who actually has bro friends the author has no idea what he's
talking about. He's completely misrepresenting bros and is regurgitating
stereotypes.

First he gets all pissy about stereotyping nerds as having pocket-protectors
and then in the next sentence regurgitates his one dimensional view on what
"frat-house culture" is and bros' attitudes towards women.

------
kayoone
"There's a rising group of developers who are much more sociable and like to
go out and have fun, and I think brogramming speaks to that audience," said
Gagan Biyani,

Oh my, stereotypes FTW...

------
strags
Jeez. How about just being a normal person? Y'know, like the vast majority of
programmers out there.

------
brown9-2
_"Want to bro down and crush code? Klout is hiring."_

Honestly, who does this type of recruiting really appeal to? Phrases like
"crush code" have about as much of a cringe-factor to me as "wanted: code
ninja".

------
JVIDEL
Yes we're all nerds carrying around TI89s on our belts, and still coding in
FORTRAN...

I find this image of regular programmers nearly as offensive as the faux geek
imagine hipsters try to acquire while wearing cheap prescription glasses they
don't need.

------
phwd
There are two things that needs to be defined here (Well three if you include
how media never portrays the story as it was interviewed, media always
searches for the dramatical pitch [1])

The first is that of the Brogramming meme. The definition at Urban Dictionary
is a joke in itself. It's a joke accept it, don't accept it. No developer in
their right mind goes around proclaiming that they are a brogrammer and if
they are saying that they are serious (like some say in the case of Facebook
and Zynga) you are being deceived [2].

There is a second definition which that I _think_ everyone clumps with this
meme and that is of the asshole/douchebag/sexist employee. He is everywhere.
Not just in software development. These individuals are the ones making the
_majority_ of sexist comments, makes sexist jokes while a female employee is
in a cubicle nearby, trying to hit on female coworkers during work hours and
going to bars every night. They have existed long before any reference to
Brogramming.

Now, I will say this. It was not smart of this individual to try advertise the
meme to the SfGate readership. Just based on the prefix "bro" alone will bring
about perception of sexism even if the original intent was not to be.

[1]: <http://www.facebook.com/ariadoss/posts/305742279480205> [2]:
[http://www.facebook.com/getwiththebrogram/posts/373108606051...](http://www.facebook.com/getwiththebrogram/posts/373108606051857)

------
vicapow
what if women (concisely or subconsciously) find the bro sexually attractive.
Could one of the reasons more women don't enter computer science be because of
the perception of "slim social pickings?" I'm not suggesting I personally
agree with the "bro" ideology but it's fair to consider those that do not
choose to enter computer science (male or female) make that choice for reasons
motivated by mate selection.

------
olalonde
I can see why a lot of people seem to dislike this particular stereotype, but
I'd like to remind them they are equally falling prey to stereotypical
discrimination when they are looking to hire "geeks" or "nerds". My main OS is
Ubuntu, I'm comfortable with half a dozen programming languages, my editor of
choice is Vim, I built a Linux distribution for fun, I just wrote a K-means
algorithm implementation in Javascript, for fun... Yet, I don't feel I'm
either a geek or a nerd. I don't like video games, RPGs, I'm not awkward/shy,
I don't particularly care about mangas, anime or whatever makes a geek a geek
or a nerd a nerd. To be honest, I don't know why people would want to be
associated with two terms that carry heavy negative connotation (according to
my own experience and Wikipedia). Perhaps, I am misunderstanding the meaning
of those words but does it really matter? Unless, I'm part of a tiny minority,
what's the point of using words that are vastly misunderstood? While "geek"
and "nerd" are arguably less harmful than "brogrammer", I just wish people
would stop using such labels altogether.

~~~
k-mcgrady
I don't think people are saying that programmers should conform to the
geek/nerd stereotype. I think the issue is that some programmers are actively
trying to conform to the 'bro' stereotype. They seem to think this makes them
'cool' when the 'bro' stereotype is mainly used in a derogatory manner. You
should really just be yourself and do good work.

------
FreshCode
I call Poe's Law :). I have had so much fun with the brogrammer stereotype -
developer jocks do exist and are quite common. We considered changing the name
of our local developer meetup group from "Nerdy Food Meetups" to something
"cooler" like Hungry Hackers, but we decided against it, lest the name prove
too inviting for brogrammers. So far: success. The group has been 100% self-
selective for nerds.

~~~
briandear
Kind of interesting.. excluding people not based on their qualifications (or
ability to contribute), but based on their willingness to self-identify as a
nerd. Doesn't seem very welcoming..

~~~
FreshCode
How is it different from excluding (bro)grammers based on their unwillingness
to self-identity as a nerd, despite their qualifications?

------
polygrammer
Some of the people in this thread need to think carefully about why it is they
think what they do about some of these issues. Lumping all women together into
an anti-sexually free, prudish bunch is horribly insulting.

If you want to attack "brogrammers" because their attitude annoys you, or you
don't like their style (which I completely agree with. I personally find the
style completely obnoxious) that's one thing. Those of you attacking them
because they like sex, women, porn, naked parties, etc. - please stop to think
about who and what you are painting with that wide, wide brush. I can assure
you that the women I know in the BDSM, poly, swinger, sex club,
goth/industrial, alt porn and other largely sex-positive communities would be
offended not only by your generalizations that women do not like these things,
but offended /at your offense./ Additionally, many of those women are not only
in those communities, but some of them happen to be systems admins,
developers, and hold other technical positions.

Please do not conflate "prudish people" with "women." The above mentioned
communities will thank you.

------
kellyreid
maybe "brogrammers" are just bros first, programmers second. i know plenty of
guys who were "bros" that are now developers. why can't you people just let
them be who they want to be and live their life?

i'm pretty sure the guy in the hot tub full of women is getting very upset
with the trash people are talking about him on the internet. i'm sure he's
taking time away from watching football and drinking natty lite to pen a witty
response.

how about you all stop clinging to a false sense of identity , live, and let
live?

------
moocow01
The problem is that it is a trend to the detriment of our profession. You
don't have any other half way respectable profession with a sector of it
trying to emulate being frat boys. Its embarrassing really.

Its a surprising slice of programming culture in that most who get into
programming tend to be the polar opposite of frat boys. Maybe this is a side
effect of The Social Network movie.

~~~
jfoutz
Finance.

~~~
Vergle
".. bro! Keep your fucking work life balance." ... "This is wall street bitch
you don't belong here!" ... "Damn it feels good to be a banker!"

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROlDmux7Tk4>

~~~
radikalus
I forgot all about this

------
mykolasmith
The fact that anyone is talking about any of this speaks volumes about how
skewed some people's priorities are. The author of this article comes across
as a whiny bitch, and the author of the article in question comes across as a
douche-bag. Can we get back to discussing meaningful topics?

------
sad_panda
When tech stops being as lucrative, the brogrammers will scatter like
cockroaches.

------
cantbecool
brogrammers are just programmers that are irreverent. That's it. Nothing to
get up in arms about.

------
Radzell
I think it was just a way of categorizing the non gaming non- awkward
subculture of programmers. I played sports most of my life and i dont play rpg
or any game other than sport games with friends. i would say i was the typical
developer. Its just a way of identifying men than aren't a typical programmer
i would think that women would welcome the change in a very stagnant geeky
comp sci culture.

------
castillowl
Whoa bro. Take it out at the gym

------
nodemaker
I proudly call myself a brogrammer (well sometimes at least!) and maybe you
should take it easy bro!

------
arihant
Its not a non-female concept as the author misunderstands. Its called
Proglamming.

Its called free choice. To each its own; don't nag somebody's way of life and
correlate it to their talent. Don't hate what you do not understand.

Brogramming is state of mind. If you let yourself immerse in it, you will see.

