
Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup? - milfseriously
Just hired a new biz dev person. Over the weekend, he sent some messages that were inappropriate to one of my existing employees.<p>He asked to take the conversation off Slack (moved to Whatsapp) and asked if they could hang out (she said, &quot;sure as friends in work context&quot;), referred to her as a milf (ugh...), and asked if he could tell her a secret (she refused)<p>My employee handled it well and didn&#x27;t let it get out of hand. I&#x27;ve seen the evidence of the texts in question.<p>The employee came to me in confidence (I&#x27;m one of the founders) and told me she really doesn&#x27;t want to cause problems with the team. I&#x27;m really upset by this guy&#x27;s behaviour and I want to fire him immediately. If I do, she&#x27;ll know and it will be a violation of the trust she placed in me.<p>So what do I do HN? Do I fire him? Kick his ass? Get them in a room with a HR rep and talk it out? Hold a &quot;how to recognize sexual harassment seminar&quot;?<p>The employee in question has made it clear that it&#x27;s not a big deal and she knows how to deal with it, but fact is she shouldn&#x27;t have to deal with it and I want to make it clear that these things aren&#x27;t acceptable in the company we&#x27;re building.
======
patio11
Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer _LAWYER_.

I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for
cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they
will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is
really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability
approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a
threatened employment practices lawsuit, and your lawyers will sigh and say
"OK, settle for $250,000. You can choose to fight it but the odds are not in
your favor."

I get that you feel this may cause problems for your innocent employee. If it
helps you contextualize this, maybe think of it less in terms of "Our
departing employee has transgressed against our innocent employee, who let me
into her confidence about that" and more in terms of "Our departing employee
demonstrated judgement flagrantly incompatible with professional employment."

Would you be worried about this if he had been embezzling? "I'm just telling
you on an FYI basis boss but I don't want to cause social issues." That's not
really how we deal with embezzlement, right. You embezzle, you get fired.
Immediately. The embezzlement is not a crime against the person who discovers
the embezzlement. They're welcome to an opinion on what the best course of
action is, but regardless of what that opinion is, the course of action will
be a swift firing.

As to messaging to the rest of the company, again lawyer lawyer lawyer, but "X
made comments of a sexual nature to another employee. As a consequence, we
fired him. If you have questions or concerns, speak to me later. Moving on."

~~~
ownagefool
Really? If he's _just_ hired him, I presume any probationary period would be
ongoing and you can let the guy go consequence free? Thus, the most obvious
least path of resistance is just to let him go and not really give him cause.
I'm not from the US, thus I'm genuinely asking the question.

With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of
romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's been rubuked,
hopefully he got the point and will settle down. If he doesn't, then I you do
have a problem, but the reaction here seems to be like he's just ran over your
dog.

~~~
bskap
In the US, almost all employment is at-will. There's no probationary period
and any one can be let go at any time without notice for any reason (or no
reason) except for a certain list of protected things (gender, race, marital
status, and the like).

Also, from the description, it seems like the conversation was way more than
just "would you like to get a drink" and the guy already didn't back down.

~~~
Chris2048
> from the description, it seems like

Exactly, nothing that any HN observer can come to any conclusion with.

------
ChrisDutrow
As someone who's done a lot of hiring and firing, the part that stands out
most to me is not the sexual harassment part, but the fact that he was just
hired and already is causing problems.

Normal people tend to be cautious and respectful at first. By immidiately
jumping in and pushing boundaries, this person is demonstrating that he
doesn't care about your company, he doesn't care what you or anybody there
thinks about him, and he doesn't care if he breaks things and gets fired.

I would fire him as soon as I could without the lawyers getting up in arms.
People like this tend to be very destructive. The smart ones will wreak havoc
in your organization for years before you figure it out.

~~~
Gratsby
I second this sentiment. Especially someone in a biz-dev role. Can you imagine
if he crossed the line like this with a customer? It's not something a budding
business wants to ever deal with.

Someone who feels casually about this kind of misconduct with another employee
- in my mind is someone who would feel casually about lying on an expense
report and other things you just don't expect people to do.

I suspect the lawyers would have you fire for no cause, give a good reference,
support unemployment benefits, and potentially offer a small departure
package. None of that is really necessary - when confronted with the facts,
nobody in their right mind is going to say "I didn't deserve to be fired. I'm
going to sue!" But in the end, protecting your business is your highest
priority.

I also get the sense that this is your real desire.

------
Mz
So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a
colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to
me again.

It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not
fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust
with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was
not told what went down. It was all handled very discreetly.

Please do get HR involved. Please do not listen to the people here who are
advising you to nuke the man from orbit, it's the only way. Doing that will
only deepen the problem. Men and women need to learn to interact at work.
Promoting fear and loathing will not further that larger goal.

You get his side. You do some training. If it continues to be a problem, sure,
fire him. But please do not use final solution/terrorist tactics. This only
hurts women in the long run. Men need to learn better manners. Cutting their
nuts off for a faux pas doesn't teach them that. It promotes a hostile
environment between the genders. It doesn't create a more civil environment.

~~~
econner
Why will firing him worsen the problem? I would fire this guy immediately.

> Men and women need to learn to interact at work.

Men should not need sensitivity training to interact with women at work.

~~~
ta_donk_gt
> Men should not need sensitivity training to interact with women at work.

I know it feels good to take zero tolerance policies, and we all do it (why do
you think we have so many people in prison in this country).

But..maybe he is some kid in his early- or mid-20's and has very little
workplace experience outside of small startups working mostly with other males
his age. He may have never had the opportunity to understand why this kind of
behavior makes a workplace uncomfortable for those on the receiving end (and
others as well).

Firing him is obviously one way to teach that lesson, and will not only lose
him this job but possibly make it difficult to find another. Giving him an
opportunity to learn it through training is another.

I do, though, think it's probably unfair to make an outcast of every young
male who isn't born with a deep understanding of why you need to keep your
attraction to women restrained once you start a grown-up job, just because you
were born that way. At that point in your life (if I'm remembering correctly,
it's been quite a while ;), most of your energy and focus has been in trying
to attract whatever you are attracted to, and there are often no blunt cues
indicating "hey, this situation is different from what you are used to".

As patio11 said, though, lawyer first if you want to keep the business alive.

~~~
econner
I have no sympathy for the "boys will be boys" side of this argument. I am a
male in my early 20's so am familiar with the mindset. Sure maybe zero
tolerance is a bit far, but every woman I know has a story like this. Every
one has had to deflect some strange workplace advance or some uncomfortable
proposition by a superior. The problem is magnified 10 fold when the workplace
is so heavily skewed male (as it is in tech). Retroactive sensitivity training
isn't going to fix this problem.

------
tptacek
I agree with Patrick: you should terminate the employee, immediately. Try to
understand how lucky you just got here. Here's a simple tweak to the story you
told that creates a nightmare scenario: the person who reported this to you,
who was called a "milf" by the bizdev guy, was on a PIP.

I disagree with Patrick on the mechanics, subject to one condition:

If, like a sane person, you consulted a lawyer _before you began hiring
people_ , and so you're offering a standard employee agreement --- the kind
every competent firm in the industry offers --- then the answer here is:

Just fire, and move on.

I don't know that "with cause" adds much.

The principle here is pretty straightforward. You got lucky this time. A new
hire crossed a serious line, and the person they irritated came to you
directly with a complaint, rather than through their lawyer. You will not get
lucky next time. And next time, there will be a history that you'll be
accountable for.

~~~
venomsnake
Can you translate to human why " the person who reported this to you, who was
called a "milf" by the bizdev guy, was on a PIP." is a nightmare scenario. If
she is on a PIP (just checked out what that means), she is on a final warning
basically?

~~~
tptacek
She's someone you're trying to manage out of the company. Maybe you were
harsher on her performance metrics than you needed to be, because in the back
of your head, getting rid of someone who complained about sexual harassment
was easier than dealing with the problem. Presto: colorable sexual harassment
and/or retaliation claim.

~~~
tamana
How does firing the accused harasser clear the path to PIP firing? It still
looks just as much as retaliation for pushing another employee out.

~~~
tptacek
It doesn't. That's the point: get rid of sexual harassment risks before they
can create problems like this.

------
darkerside
Not a lawyer. When the female employee says she doesn't want to cause trouble,
it just means that, if you are going to do something about this situation,
then you better own it. Make this a problem between you and the employee who
acted inappropriately. i.e. if/when he demonstrates understandable reasons for
acting the way he did, you don't turn this around on her.

~~~
peteretep
Respectfully, that's not the employee's decision to make.

~~~
icebraining
What do you mean?

~~~
onion2k
While it's good to respect her wishes, the outcome of downplaying the problem
could affect many more people. There's the cultural impact of leading people
believing that sexual harassment isn't taken seriously, and the very real
problem that leaving it alone could lead to it happening again which might
result in a key employee leaving (or suing, or initiating criminal
proceedings). At the very least there needs to be some sort of written warning
to act as evidence that the business took it seriously.

~~~
icebraining
Yes, but darkerside wasn't recommending downplaying the problem, but "owning
it". I don't see how peterep's post is a reply to that.

------
nzoschke
Lawyer is good advice.

If it's not acceptable in the company then you should tell him to leave.

If you don't you poison your culture.

The employee now knows that she will still need to "deal with" harassment at
this organization. Her outlook on the company culture will be forever changed.
And she will share this experience with her friends and potential recruits
forever.

Likewise the harasser will know that there are not serious consequences for
unacceptable behavior and will continue to "get away with" things. He will
repeat the behavior among his friends and towards future staff. They may not
have the confidence to report it.

This is one of the root causes of the gender imbalance in the work place.

Harassment is never ok.

This needs to be explicit and you should work hard to build a team where there
is complete trust that violations will not occur.

------
poof131
1\. While you need a lawyer for advice and to cover your ass, lawyers can’t
lead. Lawyers offer advice and dot i’s. Weak leaders delegate their
responsibilities to lawyers.

2\. You need to assess your culture. Is this one bad apple or is this
something larger. The work hard, party hard, live in the office startup
culture can be a breeding ground for this. Not that you can’t have this
environment and succeed, but you need to understand it and put checks and
safeguards in place. One option is to designate a sexual harassment rep and
make sure everybody knows this person’s roll and that they can talk to them,
possibly anonymously.

3\. Talk to your female employee and let her know you have to do something.
You can’t ignore it as that effects the company and thus everyone. Get her
opinion about how much of a problem his continued presence in the office will
be. She may not want him to be fired as she may feel partially responsible
(not saying she is in any way, but we don’t know how she’ll feel).

4\. Talk to the bizdev employee. Document the meeting and any outcomes or
remediation. Is this a problem of just being junior and not yet having the
ability to separate barroom behavior from the work place. Why did you hire
this person? Are those qualities still there and does this person have
potential? Only you know.

Talk to a lawyer, but remember, you are the leader, they are not. Walk through
the steps and make the tough decision about what is best for everyone.
Reactionary firings can be almost as negative on your culture (not your
liability though) as doing nothing. Be the type of leader who talks to their
people and tries to come to a decision that is best for everyone. Don’t be the
leader who makes reactionary decisions behind closed doors.

Also, don’t talk about ‘kicking someones ass’. As a leader, this is almost as
bad as calling someone a MILF. Step back from your emotions. After a decade in
the military, part of it working in legal, I’ve seen a lot worse: rape, child
porn, attempted murder, grand theft, fraud. While obnoxious, calling someone
MILF is pretty far down on the scale. This makes it tougher in some ways since
firing isn’t automatically the only response.

------
mmcclure
Ok everything about this situation aside, it feels like a bold move to post
about this publicly on HN, particularly when you're concerned about trust
issues. I honestly can't believe I don't see any other comments along these
lines.

You run a startup. A lot of people read HN in general, but I have to assume
startup employees are _even more_ likely to read HN. As such, it doesn't feel
crazy that one or both of these employees might see this considering it's
sitting on the front page and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

So...there is a lot of commentary here about how you should handle this
situation, but in my opinion, posting pretty specific details about it
publicly was among the very worst first moves you could make.

~~~
yuhong
I have been thinking about Yishan-style CEOs for a while now, though sexual
harassment is probably a special case here. BTW, I hasn't done much research
on sexual harassment laws, but so far I don't think they are as bad as anti-
discrimination laws. This is partly because sexual harassment often do leave
evidence behind. This don't mean they are worth the costs though.

------
ReadingInBed
One thing to remember if you keep him on and he continues this behavior you
might not find out about it for a while. People won't always speak out and
tell you. What happens when he starts harassing your new hires? If he is new
to the company and already this bold what happens in a year or two?

------
wilsynet
When an employee makes you aware of a possible occurrence of sexual
harassment, your obligation as the employer is to investigate and take
appropriate action.

Tell the employee that your company isn't one that believes this kind of
behavior is acceptable, tell her you're going to talk to a lawyer, tell her
you need to investigate this, and that she isn't causing trouble and you're
glad she brought this to your attention.

Get an HR professional, lawyer or not, and deal with this immediately.

Let me assure you, when she said she doesn't want to cause trouble, she didn't
mean she wanted you to do nothing. It means she wants you to do something, and
she doesn't want to be blamed, she doesn't want the office to talk about it,
and she wants you to own it.

If you do nothing, one day, if she (or someone else) ever decides to file a
lawsuit for sexual harassment and fostering a hostile work environment against
your company, you saying "but she told me she didn't want to cause any
trouble" is not an excuse to sit idly by.

------
hermannj314
Please get someone from HR involved. Do not immediately fire the employee as
this could lead to severe financial problems for you. Despite the peasant with
pitchforks in this comment section, wrongful termination / paying unemployment
/ litigation, etc. is also something you may want to avoid. This employee of
yours may not be aware of the policy or the law and is possibly entitled to
progressive disciplinary action based on your employment policies (and I
disagree with those below that said sexual harassment was somehow equivalent
to murder and embezzlement - WTF?). From what I read sexual harassment laws
might not even apply to your business if you have fewer than so many
employees, I am not a lawyer or an HR professional, so don't listen to me.

The employee did something wrong, no sensible person doubts that, but not
necessarily something that allows you to fire them without consequences for
you. You need to speak to HR and then if necessary your legal representation.

~~~
jeremyt
Who are all these people who think a small startup has a HR department?

~~~
hermannj314
Really? I'm pretty sure my advice has merit even if you don't have any HR
professionals on full-time staff, just like 'lawyer up' has merit if you don't
have a lawyer on staff. It really isn't hard to piece together.

If you have no HR staff or lawyer on staff and have a question requiring their
expertise, you can hire consultants or lawyers to assist you with your
problem.

If you are a really small start up and can't afford to do any of this, then
you should read the law yourself and make your own conclusions.

If you don't have time to make your own conclusions you should just do
whatever you want.

How many contingencies do I need to assume here? I'm giving advice on the
Internet.

~~~
jeremyt
With respect, and I'm not saying this applies to you, but I'm poking fun at
the people throughout this thread who keep saying that these incidents should
be reported to HR, or we should get HR involved, or some combination.

In my opinion, these are comments from people sitting comfortably behind their
chair at insert Fortune 500 company here, who have no idea what it's like to
work at or run a startup. The suggestion that said startup should go out and
hire an HR consultant is equally ridiculous.

That's not to say "lawyer up" isn't good advice, because I think it is, but
startups routinely hire lawyers; they do not routinely hire HR people.

My startup was almost 4 years old and well past a B round before we ended up
hiring our first HR person.

So, to be clear, what I'm saying is if the problem is bad enough, you should
consult a lawyer. If it isn't, you should handle it in-house with common sense
and perhaps some advice from advisors/lawyers. At no point do I think it's
reasonable to advise someone to go out and hire an HR consultant.

------
cdumler
First of all, talk to a lawyer.

One thing that is really overlooked about harassment is that it's not about a
single event. Realize a few things:

* She's saying that it's ok because in the real world most companies will protect the man over the woman. Women who want to get ahead learn to never put her neck out too far. All too often, clearly bad behavior will result in "training" for the guy. (After all, she was a hottie asking for it, am I right?) Do you really want accept an apology for her that it's not a big deal that she was harassed at work?

* Workplace harassment happens because most guys know they _can_ get away with it. More importantly: if this was the line cause a stir, the he'll just be more subtle next time. It's boundary testing that is no different from a four-year-old. It _will_ get around, because this guy will associate with others who don't mind his behavior. Do you really want to be known for that type of environment?

* Once the workplace accepts an event, it becomes that much harder to rationalize dealing with equal or less events. You'll have people actually arguing that Henry wasn't punished when asked Sally out, why are you punishing me? And, he could have valid precedent. Do you really want to be dealing with the fine lines between behaviors?

Fundamentally, sexual harassment erodes trust. If you have a workplace that
has clear line between humor and personal relations, that creates teams who
understand and care about each other: you can joke about sexual innuendo,
personal problems, etc. When someone is unhappy with something, he or she
feels safe to speak up. Encourage people being humble and considerate. If
harassment is allowed, at best it just causes drama. At worst, it causes power
problems that kill trust, brings in more people who causes problems, and the
real possibility that someone could own your start up by lawsuit.

------
kbart
I'm not familiar with US customs, so little confused here: is asking your co-
worker out is considered a sexual harassment? Or is it the "milf" part?

~~~
Kristine1975
Not sure about asking a co-worker out, but calling someone a MILF (Mom I'd
Like to Fuck) sounds like sexual harrassment to me.

~~~
ChemicalWarfare
I upvoted your comment. Calling someone you work with and barely know a milf
is an asinine move. That said though - she might have led him on when she
agreed to move the conversation to whatsapp.

~~~
icebraining
According to what was told, they moved the conversation to Whatsapp before he
asked her to hang out. What would she be leading him on about?

~~~
basch
if i said "can we move this conversation somewhere more private, and outside
work" and you said "yes" is there an implication of some consent?

could the guy have been imagining that her agreeing to move the convo was her
approval, and anything further was her playing hard to get?

that said, the magic words "sure as friends in work context" should have been
a cease and desist to end any further bright ideas.

~~~
icebraining
That specific wording ("somewhere more private") might imply acceptance of
sexual advances, but nowhere do we see those words in the original post, and I
find it hard to believe that one would say "yes" to that if one wasn't
interested in being asked out.

~~~
basch
if a coworker asks me for my personal phone number or email address, something
is up. there is a reason they arent using official company provided
communication. asking for my phone number sounds like explicit "move this off
the record."

~~~
icebraining
Yes, and that might be because they want you to make a move on them, or it
might be - like it very recently happened to me - that they just wanted to ask
you for help on a side project. I can definitely tell you that I wasn't
leading my coworker on when I sent him my personal email address, and I find
it weird that it would be someone's only assumption.

~~~
ChemicalWarfare
If instead of asking you to help out with a project they would've asked you
out, would you consider this to be an inappropriate/sexual harassment
situation though?

~~~
icebraining
No, but neither did she. If they kept pressing after being turned down, yes,
probably.

------
kfcm
I'm going to address how to handle the employee who came to you in confidence.

You need to sit down with her--before you do anything--and inform her you need
to do something and why. Tell her you understand she came to you in
confidence, but this behavior can not be tolerated. She might be able to brush
it off, but the next employee the biz dev person harasses might not be so
understanding and file a sexual harassment lawsuit against the company.

And if it's discovered YOU knew of his behavior and did nothing.....

------
JSeymourATL
> I want to fire him immediately. If I do, she'll know and it will be a
> violation of the trust she placed in me.

Beyond creating a potential legal liability-- the biz dev guy demonstrated
poor decision quality, bad peer relationships, and questionable business
acumen. All cause for performance dismissal. He caused the true breach of
trust. You can leave your female employee entirely out of any discussions.

------
thonos
Don't fire without talking first. I'm not saying your innocent employee is
lying but try to get both sites and possibly some proof (the messages).

/ EDIT: I missed the part where he said that he saw the evidence - sorry.

Why I'm saying this is because I was in a similar situation once. Employee X
didn't like me without me knowing. At a party (alcohol involved) we talked a
little (normal things, nothing sexually, personal, private or anything like
it) and that was it. On the next day I got asked into the office and have been
told that multiple people filed a sexual harassment claim against me. No names
who that could have been, no proof, but I was guilty.

They told me that I either have to leave the company or send a public
(anonymous) apology for the bad things I did. (They didn't even tell me the
things I did)

Until today I can still only guess who it was and it perplexes me that
"multiple people" filed that claim against me. After talking to my better
friend coworkers it seems like all people that could have filed that were
friends with that one employee X that didn't like me.

Long story short, I still don't believe I did anything that could have been
even remotely near sexual harassment but I'm feeling horrible. Maybe the worst
memory in my entire career. Every time there is a harassment training I get
reminded of what happened and that there are indeed people out there that call
me a "sexual harasser".

------
PhilWright
I think the reaction of this thread is a little over the top. Lets calm down
and be professional and adult before we convict someone based on scant
information. I know it is fun to rail on someone but firing a person is not a
minor issue and could potentially destroy someone's career.

The information we are presented with is minimal. This is perfectly
understandable but it means that no one in this thread has anything like
enough detail or context to make any judgement on firing someone.

What if the man was simply making a pass at someone he liked but unfortunately
was clumsy and inept at doing so? Should it never be possible for a man to ask
a woman from work out on a date? What if the woman has a reputation of being a
social justice warrior that hates men and loves any excuse to complain about
any perceived slight. We have no idea on the ages or marital statuses of the
two people. What if he is a married middle aged man with three kids and she is
a young intern? That makes it sound a lot more creepy. What if they are both
single and the same age and seem to have the same hobbies? Does that change
things a little? You cannot judge this scenario based on a couple of sentences
from the OP.

My point is not to defend him, I have no idea if he is a predatory creep or a
good guy that made a simple mistake. But then neither does anyone else here.
Get a lawyer so you can follow a sensible policy of sitting down with the
accused and ask about his side of the story. Depending on the response
determines your next action.

~~~
meowface
While normally I'd agree with your point, the OP gave a pretty clear
description of what the employee did.

>He asked to take the conversation off Slack (moved to Whatsapp) and asked if
they could hang out (she said, "sure as friends in work context"), referred to
her as a milf (ugh...), and asked if he could tell her a secret (she refused)

>I've seen the evidence of the texts in question.

It doesn't get any less ambiguous than that.

~~~
ben174
"Milf" is where he crossed the line. Otherwise it's just clumsy courting. But
"milf" is sexual harassment.

------
HighPlainsDrftr
Consult your lawyer.

I've attended a few sexual harassment training's over the years. There are no
clear cut rules. In fact, in my first training, harassment couldn't occur
until the other sex said "stop, no, etc." In the last one I attended, things
aren't so clear cut, and it seems like the lawyers have made sexual harassment
so unclear that the only ones who can determine it are the lawyers themselves.

It doesn't matter that it was after work, using a non-work communication
medium. It still could be or maybe its not harassment.

You are going to have to talk with her and let her know that you have to act
upon this. You don't know what is going to happen. At a bare minimum,
something is going to his HR file. At worse, a lawsuit is going to happen.

------
falcolas
Based on the training I've received - document the incident, talk to the
problem employee and remind him that this is not appropriate business
behavior, and warn him that a repeat performance will not be tolerated, nor
will any attempts at retribution aimed at the company at large, or the female
employee. Provide training to the company at large, so they know what is, and
what is not acceptable in a business. Get training yourself so you know the
law and how to handle this in the future.

I disagree with the chorus of "Fire him now!" in the other comments; startups
hire a lot of folks straight out of college, so there's a significant chance
that the employee in question has never been informed of what is, and is not,
appropriate when they want to pursue a romance with someone from the office.
What may be acceptable in a college classroom is very different from what is
acceptable in an office.

Mistakes happen, words and body language which were not included in the chat
log may have been misconstrued... you have one side of the story right now.
Get both sides, and give the opportunity for the man to learn.

Involving a lawyer to ensure that you're on the right side of the law is, of
course, a damned good idea. Especially if you end up deciding that you want to
go down the road of firing.

~~~
NateDad
If you don't know by 21 that calling a woman a milf is degrading and
offensive, you're never going to learn. Or at least not in any timeframe where
it's valid for this company.

~~~
kaitai
Amen. Everyone knows; it's just a kid getting out of punishment to say
otherwise. Readers might be impressed at just how resistant some people are to
learning what's offensive: they can learn calculus, botanical names, database
management, but miraculously just never figure out that hitting on colleagues
is problematic.

------
everly
It's baffling/hilarious/concerning to me that there are multiple commenters
saying they're not able to see the harassment and asking for clarification.

~~~
467568985476
And all the people saying, "Well, give him another chance. Everyone makes
mistakes and maybe he can learn from his..." as if this kind of "mistake" is a
normal one that anybody might make. I think it says a lot about the
commenters' attitudes towards their female coworkers.

~~~
Mz
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11666857](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11666857)

------
8d11a455d235f38
You need to listen to guy's side of story. When I first came to this country,
people told me never ever date anyone from work. I was focused on my career
and too scared to mess up. I met some wonderful people at work, we made
friendships, and some are still friends.

But sadly I took that advice too closely to my heart. Many of my crushes ended
up dating someone else at work or outside. Some even found their life partners
at work. It seemed only I followed this advice. As introvert, it was hard for
me to meet people outside of work context.

The guy probably had no clue that he was making her uncomfortable. He needs
training, not a life time of loneliness.

------
salesthrowaway1
As an experienced biz dev person, I feel like I understand this type of
employee and have worked with them many times. Based on the feedback from your
female employee, it sounds like her concern is this happening to other people
who doesn't "know how to deal with it" and that is why she got you involved.
She doesn't seem concerned with short term repercussions, more about this
employee's attitude needing adjustment for him to fit in long-term. She sounds
like a very thoughtful person.

I think whatever solution you decide, you should keep her in the loop. You
can't violate her trust if you are transparent about her with what you are
doing.

As for the solution, it is easy to want to fire this employee. However, I
think it would be the wrong thing to do. Many people are immature and the tech
industry has given many people the wrong impression about how much of a party
certain roles (sales) are. I'm absolutely not condoning his behavior, but
based on the female employee coming to you in confidence and "not wanting to
cause problems" it sounds like she doesn't believe he should be terminated for
this.

What I think you should do is immediately document this incident. Document it
well, and file it in his HR file. Tell your female employee that his behavior
is unacceptable, and you are going to speak to him with HR about acceptable
and unacceptable communication between employees.

Then you watch and see if he improves, and maintains an acceptable level of
respect and decency while hitting his quota and contributing to the company's
success. If he does not to this, then you have plenty of cause to eliminate
him.

~~~
tptacek
What the victim wants isn't relevant to the decision of how to handle the
harasser. The reason the harasser should be fired is that they are creating
egregious risk for the company.

All that has to change in this story to create a nightmare scenario is for
this bizdev person to have harassed someone who was already on a PIP, or who
is about to be placed on one, or someone who has a preexisting grievance with
the company.

There are better places for bizdev and sales people to learn professionalism
than in depositions.

~~~
exclusiv
Good points. To add to this - biz dev is outwardly representing your company
in ways other employees don't. Do you want this person interacting with
potential partners or clients in this manner?

------
Brushfire
1\. Talk to your attorney, yes.

2\. Probably: fire this guy. This isnt someone you want at your company. When
you fire him, you wont announce to the rest of the company why. And you can
have a conversation with the victim employee to let them know why you did it:
you don't want abusive people on the team, and that you value every employee
and also have to look out for everyone and the entire business. The employee
will respect you more for taking action, trust me.

------
762236
It sounds like you already made the decision: you call one your 'employee',
but not the other.

~~~
lucb1e
Should you make business decisions based on your feelings? In fact, should you
ever make decisions in response to feelings if they're not yours in the first
place (since it's her thing)?

It's a nice catch, I hadn't picked up on it, but she wants it differently.
Just because you don't like that doesn't make it right to act on it as
employer.

I'm not saying OP should do anything, I'm also not saying they should do
nothing, I don't know. I'm just observing that this reasoning might not be the
best.

------
pbhjpbhj
Just to play devil's advocate: how hard is it to spoof whatsapp/slack messages
if one wanted to get someone fired?

If he denies that he sent the messages, or says he sent messages but the
content has been altered where could the employer go then? "She's trying to
get me sacked because ...". Where could you go from there to prove he
committed an offense against propriety/policy?

Also, a perhaps more realistic issue is the move to WhatsApp could be seen as
a move to personal interaction away from business interaction - if the
employee alleged to have committed sexual harassment called her a milf once in
a private conversation that was not a work context do they deserve to be
fired?

Did he stop when asked, doesn't that mean it's not harassment? Still could be
inappropriate and ultimate lead to firing but to me harassment is an ongoing
series of incidents.

~~~
NateDad
He called her a milf to her face. That's completely unacceptable.

She was clear when she said "as friends at work". It wouldn't have been
harassment if he hadn't been so crude and suggestive. if he'd just said "hey,
want to have dinner some time?" Then it would have been a little forward, but
not harassment. He didn't. He said "You're a mom I'd like to fuck".

It doesn't have to be ongoing to be harassment. Once you've declared "I'm the
kind of guy that'll call you a milf to your face after only knowing you a
short time"... all bets are off. Any time you're alone with him, you're going
to feel uncomfortable. And I guarantee you, that kind of guy is not going to
be a perfect angel the rest of the time. He clearly has messed up ideas of
what is appropriate to say to women.

~~~
datalist
That is her side of the story, which does not have be _necessarily_ true.

~~~
pat_space
milfseriously stated that he saw the conversation/evidence

~~~
datalist
Sorry, that statement is too little to justify the tarring and feathering
mentality prevailing in this thread.

If there was a seriously inappropriate conduct then that should be certainly
dealt with (harassing colleagues is not acceptable - whether they are male or
female), but so far only the "MILF" statement leaves a bad taste.

Also, all digital evidence can be more or less easily faked. I am not saying
that this DID happen in this case, I am saying it could have.

The downvoting and lynch mob attitude people exhibit here in this thread is
rather worrying.

------
anjc
I'm baffled by this thread.

Yes it might not be appropriate and yes it might necessitate action, but fire
him immediately when the "milf" handled it, ended it, and the situation was
finished? He didn't push it further than his perception of her comfort level.

Furthermore, the term "MILF" has transcended its literal meaning. It doesn't,
at this stage in time, literally mean "I want to fuck you". It's a normal Pop
Culture term now which is synonymous with "attractive", is in every tabloid,
on every reality show, blah blah. I'm not saying that it was appropriate to
say it to her, but it isn't the aggressive, invasive term that is being
suggested in this thread.

I can only guess that this occurred in the US; you all make it sound like a
seriously stressful environment to be in.

~~~
nobody_nowhere
Picture yourself, as an owner of the company, explaining to a jury how "Mother
I'd Like to Fuck" doesn't constitute a hostile environment in the course of a
sexual harassment lawsuit. Maybe with a jury that includes someone your
grandmother's age. And maybe not as a result of this particular conversation,
but the next time it happens.

~~~
anjc
I'm not saying the owner should not be concerned at all. He should clearly log
this incident and follow up at a later date to ensure that similar incidents
haven't continued. If the female worker is satisfied that they haven't
continued then there's no way that a court would construe this as sexual
harassment, ever.

Also, "milf" is in standard printed dictionaries at this stage. I haven't ever
used the term, but I understand that people simply use it as a colloquial noun
and don't tend to use it as a literal proposal. I'm confused that so many
people in the thread seem to think this.

~~~
tomc1985
Are there any other acronyms around sexual intent that are considered benign
intact but offensive when mentally unpacked? I can't think of any. Because
when you unpack it the original meaning becomes clear.

It's hard to imagine someone dignified not taking offense to being called a
MILF, because regardless of what was intended you just told the person they
are a mom you'd like to fuck, to their face.

------
whatok
People in this thread asking about "whats wrong with calling someone a milf"
really feed into the tech is sexist stereotype

------
sizzzzlerz
Nip this in the bud right now! This isn't the guy's first attempt at
harassment (there is no other word for it) and it will not be his last. If you
have a no-tolerance clause in your employee manual, fire the guy. If not, a
serious discussion is in order and, depending upon how it goes, either the guy
is immediately fired or is placed on double secret probation for some period
of time. Explain that if this happens again, he's gone, immediately. No
appeal. No reprieve.

Seriously, you need to protect your company and yourself from these things. A
seemingly minor event can go nuclear on you quicker than you could ever
believe.

~~~
tptacek
You don't need a clause in your employment contract to enable you to fire
someone for unwelcome sexual advances. What you need is the standard
employment contract that establishes employees have been hired at-will and
without any implied contracts to the contrary. You must have that document no
matter what --- it's what makes it safe for you to fire anyone.

------
rsp1984
I am not a lawyer, but:

Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events
that would qualify as sexual harassment (at least not from my European view of
things). Certainly unprofessional but not quite sexually harassing. As far as
I understand, the transgressions were "only" verbal and there was no other
inappropriate behaviour.

Here's what I would do: Collect _all_ the facts and evidence about the BD
person's inappropriate behaviour. This may involve talking to your employee
about this again. Then take some quiet hours in the evening to review all of
the facts. If, and only if, you come to the conclusion that the BD person's
behaviour clearly qualifies as sexual harassment, get lawyers involved (and
probably eventually fire).

If on the other hand you come to the conclusion that the comments were
inappropriate but not sexually harassing, have a private and very serious and
straight talk with your BD person about the events and that there is 0
tolerance for that behaviour, then move on. And of course fire the guy
immediately if it ever happens again.

~~~
snowwrestler
> Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events
> that would qualify as sexual harassment

Well yes, it might be hard to see the sexual harassment once you've decided to
set aside the sexually harassing part.

~~~
joering2
Excuse me, but where was it?

Also, Milf can be sexual harassment. Sure. So can be telling someone "you look
nice". I worked with someone that was bashed by HR by telling a co-worker "I
like your new haircut". I didn't see it as SH.

It depends on point of view.

~~~
gommm
There's a clear difference between "I like your new haircut" which I agree is
not sexual harassment and MILF: Mother I'd Like to Fuck (which is just
slightly above calling your coworker slut). The second sentence is sexual
harassment.

~~~
gkya
We don't know if the mentioned person's mother tongue is English. They may
well not know that MILF is mother I like to f*ck. I'm from a non English
speaking country and I can say that I haven't met anybody who'd know that. I
myself didn't know that until I read a Wikipedia article. The OP should first
try to see if this is the case, otherwise fire them. Some are bad at flirting,
and sometimes you say silly things. We shouldn't be this generous at calling
everything sexual harassment.

~~~
DanGarcia595
If that is the case, would you, not knowing the meaning of a word, use that
word in a professional environment? And also, does not understanding the
meaning of the word excuse it's use?

~~~
gkya
I said he may have mistaken the meaning of the word. They don't have footnotes
on porn sites deciphering milf, bdsm, cfnm etc. Sometimes we say silly things
in foreign languages. And also in our mother tongues. It's not like we check
every word we use in the dictionary.

~~~
jpindar
Helpful Hint: If the only place you see a word is on porn sites, it's probably
not a good thing to call a coworker.

~~~
gkya
Oh thank you I didn't know that!

------
Baghard
> Over the weekend, he sent some messages that were inappropriate ... on
> Whatsapp

So, not during working hours, not using work-related tools, he send some
inappropriate messages. It's not a big deal.

> these things aren't acceptable in the company we're building.

Sure. But this conversation did not happen in the company, not during work
hours, and not using work tools. You were made privy of a very personal
conversation happening between adults outside of work.

> The employee came to me in confidence

And you posted about it in great detail on Hacker News, making it a topic of
water cooler conversation of about 80% of startups world-wide.

> she'll know and it will be a violation of the trust she placed in me

Exactly.

> So what do I do HN?

Preferably nothing at all. Don't make a big deal about what your employees do
in their spare time.

> she shouldn't have to deal with it

She shouldn't have confided in you, because you can't seem to handle it. This
dude is poison now. He may as well be fired. And your employee made it a
business issue, which is a big thorny issue. You shouldn't have to deal with
it, but now you do.

Good luck!

------
chase_meridian
As a female startup founder I can't tell you this emphatically enough: fire
him. Your judgement and opinion of this dude will always be clouded by this
incident and it opens you up to a lawsuit both things you do not want to deal
with, fire him.

------
davmar
Very rarely do biz owners regret firing people too early - it's usually done
months too late. Don't wait for this to happen a second time and for your
valuable long term employees to leave because you didn't take action.

Don't let cancerous employees into your organization. Don't allow him to
harass another one of your employees.

Fire him.

------
tomchristie
* Immediate dismissal - the language isn't in any kind of gray zone - completely inappropriate. This person will damage your company if you keep them on. * Make sure they're not able to make a scene. No access to email or the premises at the point of dismissal. You don't want them causing further damage to the team. * Make it clear the issue is wholly between you and them, this is your action, decision and responsibility.

------
beilabs
Have you a sexual harassment policy? Did they agree to it when they took the
job?

Fire that person immediately, it's a clear breach. You need to show your
employees that you will support them when something like this happens.

This may not be the first time this has happened, might only be the first time
that you have heard about it. You need to be proactive in creating a safe work
environment and as the founder that is your responsibility.

~~~
masklinn
> Have you a sexual harassment policy? Did they agree to it when they took the
> job?

The United States of America have a sexual harassment policy. They also have
theft and murder policies. This isn't a matter of company policy, although
covering up these things may be.

~~~
bduerst
And yet, companies have sexual harassment policies that employees agree to -
probably because the harassment is more prevalent than murder in the
workplace.

By having them agree to the policy, it makes it easier to settle the dispute.

------
whiddershins
It was very interesting for me to observe my own reaction to this thread.

When I first read what you wrote, I though "fire. immediately." I think I was
just angry that someone would be so off the mark when they are a new hire. And
the milf thing made me genuinely angry.

But as that anger passed I realized how much of a gross overreaction that is.
People pursue workplace romance all the time. The thing that sucks about
approaching someone is when it is welcome, you are golden, and when it is
unwelcome, you are a creep. It is incredibly hard to get through an unwelcome
approach without any awkwardness.

So really, this guy needs to learn manners, and to chill out.

Unless he continually repeats the behavior, I don't see why there's any real
long term problem.

~~~
ScottBurson
"Romance"? Are you serious??? There's nothing the slightest bit romantic about
what this guy did.

------
sharemywin
What's this guy going to say to one of your business partners/customers? Not
that your employees don't matter but if he can't control himself around other
employees he can't do it anywhere.

------
d4rkph1b3r
This guy should be fired both for harassment and incompetence. First of all,
this guy is supposed to be biz dev. We are not talking about a rude comment by
an engineer, people skills and sensitivity/understanding of business etiquette
is part of his job. Two, this is not a "faux pas". He did not say "your dress
looks hot" or "will you go out with me" or any number of less than polite come
ons that people use outside of a work context. Instead he made an explicit
comment to someone he barely knows. This shows clear lack of judgement.

------
apalmblad
Hire slow, fire fast.

He's new. If he's still in a probationary period - either by statute or
contractually - get rid of him. If he's not, and he's a brand new employee,
consider adding wording to future contracts regarding a probationary period.

Obviously, still talk to a lawyer.

------
balls187
You're in a bit of a quandry. He should be go, but it's not going to be easy.

If you fire him for this instance, you could be sued for wrongful termination,
and in which case you would have to produce those whatsapp messages, and
convince your employee that they were harmful.

> He asked to take the conversation off Slack (moved to Whatsapp) and asked if
> they could hang out (she said, "sure as friends in work context"), referred
> to her as a milf (ugh...), and asked if he could tell her a secret (she
> refused)

My interpretation was this person used Slack (work resource) to ask a coworker
to switch to Whatsapp (non-work resource), during the weekend (non-company
time). He proceeded to make inappropriate comments on whatsapp.

I'm not a lawyer, but from limited research, it seems that a few sets of
inappropriate text messages (of which you dont approve of, but the recipient
doesn't mind) sent over the weekend does not constitute workplace sexual
harassment.

The employee has said "it's not a big deal." which even though you don't like
it, means it's somewhat out of your hands.

The quandry is, the bizdev person is probably a bad fit for your company. You
should get rid of him, but would need something more substantial in order to
standup to a wrongful termination suit.

------
cmdkeen
Also it is worth saying that an employee coming to a manager / founder / owner
to report a problem "in confidence" is not the same as you not being able to
do anything about it. You need to manage that person as well so that they know
that they've a) done the right thing b) aren't at fault for whatever the
consequences are and c) that you / the company do care about them.

Even if you weren't to fire the person (and as a brand new hire firing seems a
better option) then you would need to provide specifics when having the
conversations that would follow. Mainly because all you have so far is an
allegation, making your mind up (not the same as considering options)
beforehand is not good.

Regardless of whether you fire the employee or not the key thing is to prepare
for the conversation. If you're a founder speak to your co-founder(s), if
you're a manager don't just speak with HR and have them in the room for the
meeting but prepare with them. Have your opening statement well rehearsed,
consider different conversational flows and how you might react to them. This
isn't a thing to do on the fly.

------
ada1981
I spend a good deal of my time working with high powered men on how to
actually develop intimacy with themselves and with women as well as training
companies and organizations on how to build cultures of intimacy,
vulnerability and strength.

For many high performing men, their shadow side is that they view themselves
and thus, their world as objects.

That your culture manifested this sort of dynamic to me is a weak signal about
deeper issues in your organization, leadership and overall company. From my
vantage point, the least of your problems is how to protect yourself from the
fallout of this situation legally and you may want to take a deeper look at
the root cause of this, lest you begin a game of cultural wack-a-mole, firing
away manifestations of a deeper cultural issue.

I don't mean this to come off as blaming you, but rather, there is an element
of you in all of this that you do have control over -- some of that will be in
how you handle the situation and the other will be in your understanding of
the dynamics inside of you that led to you co-creating it.

Happy to gift you a culture session if you want to discuss it more deeply.

------
unfunco
If the person is new employee, presumably you have a probation period clause
in the contract, and at the end you can state that it's just not working out,
protecting both the accuser and and the accused from knowing circumstance?

You absolutely have to get rid of that type of person, it's already moved
outside of work context to a personal context (WhatsApp), which implies that
the author of the messages is not comfortable talking about what he's talking
about in the context of a work environment because he knows it is wrong, and
because he is willing to take that risk, it signals a danger.

You should speak to a lawyer about removing the person from the company in a
quiet way (which I think is what the accuser would prefer to protect her
complaint) – since he is new, it's generally easier than ridding the company
of a long-standing employee. Probation clauses are common in the United
Kingdom, I'm not sure about the U.S. – so this advice might be awfully
inaccurate.

If you have seen proof, the accused needs to be removed. He is toxic if you
know for sure of the correct circumstance.

------
rwmj
I've had a similar experience at a start up I once worked at.

We hired our first network administrator to replace developers like me who had
been doing the same sort of job.

The day that he started the job, we received an email that someone using our
gateway IP address had posted to Usenet [this was a while back] the IP and
root password of some other company's public webserver, with a message to the
effect that people should "f--- it up". The email also stated that the root
password seemed to work, and we verified that.

We quickly worked out that the server was our new employee's previous
workplace, and we sacked him and walked him out _on the spot_. He didn't
receive any pay or benefits. We also documented everything on paper in case
there was some legal problem (which didn't happen, of course, but you never
know with some people).

So my advice is:

* Document everything. On real, physical paper. Sign and date each page.

* Fire them, now.

~~~
Mz
Well, that's a nice story, but I don't see how an attempt at intentional
malicious sabotage of their previous employer is "similar" to this.

~~~
rwmj
It's not a "story", but a real thing that happened to me. It's similar because
the OP needs to fire the employee now, and document everything. And maybe get
a lawyer too.

~~~
Mz
I meant _story_ as in _anecdote,_ not as in _tall tale._

------
woodman
I might be missing the obvious here, but why did she confide in you if she
didn't want something done? Unless you two are drinking buddies and she was
just unburdening herself, you have to assume that she is asking for your help
- and the double speak is an attempt to emotionally protect herself from the
inevitable.

------
ergothus
Do nothing is not an option (not that you seem to consider that an option),
because even if she truly is fine, the next employee he harasses may not be.

An HR rep is, frankly, usually pointless, unless you have high quality HR with
specialized training. They do serve as a verifying party though.

Me? I'd interview this guy (not alone) to see if I thought he could learn (as
atrocious as his behavior reportedly is, I've been very surprised by what
lessons have simply never been communicated). If you don't have full
confidence he can improve, he's a liability to you and should go.

I'd also lead this off by talking with the female employee about what you want
to do - It's not just about her (although she certainly deserves respect), but
about what kind of a company you want to have - which employees are protected
and which ones are not. Hopefully she'll understand.

------
DenisM
IMHO, harassment is only the tip of the problem. Team members should respect
each other's right to pursuit of happiness. If you draw the line here, the
MILF comment is so out of line, there is really no question about what to do,
only how to do it.

------
OliverJones
I've been through this kind of thing. It's very unpleasant, frightening even.
Hang in there!

From your critical incident report here there was no inappropriate physical
contact or attempted coercion between these two people. Make sure that's
correct. If your senior HR person or some other executive of your company is
experienced with this (meaning: has done it before) have her/him conduct an
investigation. If you don't have experience in house get your lawyer to do the
investigation. Get it done; don't let it sit.

Base your decision about disciplining or terminating the guy with bad
boundaries on the results of the investigation. Ask your investigator how to
confront him, and follow that advice. As hard as it is to imagine right how,
anti-harrassment discipline is a dish best served cold, not hot. It's also
best served promptly.

You need to do the anti-harassment seminar. You need to let your whole team
know this kind of stuff is not condoned or ignored in your company, because
it's not who you are. Your lawyer's office can probably provide the seminar.
(Our lawyers did a great job with our seminar.)

You need to establish a policy about harassment if you don't already have one.
There are plenty of good template policies around. If you work with a payroll
service they probably have one you can use. And you need to require all your
people to take the seminar. It should be part of your onboarding process.

If you sack this guy don't worry about a wrongful termination suit. Do what's
right for your business. You'll have the investigation paperwork, and the
state commission on such matters will very likely look at it and say "case
closed," if the guy bothers to go after you.

Also don't worry about people in your company worrying about who's going to
get whacked next. Just make it clear that respect, civilized behavior, and
good interpersonal boundaries are a vital part of your company culture. You
could even go so far as to say "no a __holes. "

Good luck. But you won't need luck. You'll just need the strength to get
through it, which you have.

------
ksou32
Fire him, give no reason.

A dumbass like that can easily cause major problems down the line

------
techjuice
Sexual harassment is always a big deal due to it being illegal according to
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 -
[https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-
sex.cfm](https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-sex.cfm)

You will need to insure your company, employees and yourself are legally
protected by visiting an attorney as soon as possible. As it appears you do
not have the standard company guidelines and procedures in place for
investigating and terminating employees found violating law. Your attorney
should be able to help you draft the proper paperwork and procedures to
accomplish this in your company policy and employee training.

When you talk with your attorney there may be more things that are required to
do legally (filing a police report, filing charges, having the employee
harassed file charges if she wants too, etc.). The attorney will be able to
walk you through everything you need to do. As it may not be a big deal to
your employee now, but that could change down the road, especially if it
unfortunately picks up again or escalates. Now would be the best time to
resolve the issue while it is only at the texting phase, as things would go
downhill for your entire business quick if it were to escalate in the near
future.

I hope you are able to get this sorted quickly as it is very important to have
something like this in a well known zero tolerance policy that everyone knows
about on their first day on the job during their on boarding process.

------
ryanmarsh
> she really doesn't want to cause problem

> made it clear that it's not a big deal and she knows how to deal with it

Last year I watched an emotionally strong friend reduced to a terrified
sobbing mess before he gathered the courage to go to his leadership about a
sexual harassment issue with his direct superior. I know you won't take her
grace for granted but please consider that how she really feels may be
different than what she says in order to maintain professionalism.

------
smilesnd
Most humans are dicks. That is my general rule when dealing with these things
because it is true. But, should you do anything about it? From what I can tell
this didn't happen during business hours or at work. This was a conversation
between 2 adults where one was a dick. I would thank her for the heads up and
do what she wishes and stay out of it. If it does become a problem or shows up
at work then document the hell out of it and lawyer up.

------
hrmageddon
HR manager here who has dealt with this exact situation a number of times.
Retaining counsel for consult is a good idea but do not be surprised if they
tell you that unless it's specifically in your policy that this is prohibited,
nothing here is likely actionable.

In fact the "ideal" scenario is that two employees interact, one
rejects/rebuffs/corrects the other for harassing or inappropriate remarks and
it does not continue. IF it continues you have something to work with, at
present it does not sound like you do. Thank your employee for telling you and
for speaking up, and ask her to keep you updated.

Sexual harassment, like other workplace harassment issues, generally has to be
considered "pervasive and severe" to be something with teeth, and yes the
court has generally very high standards for what constitutes both of those
things.

Talk to your HR rep and do not burn up a ton of cash on lawyers just yet. Talk
to them about this as a constellation of fit issues for the role, see if term
is needed for all of the above. Make plans to hold a sexual harassment and
bullying training anyway for all EEs. Let HR help you with this, seriously, we
deal with it all the time.

------
yaur
INAL, but here's what I think

> I'm really upset by this guy's _behaviour_ and I want to fire him
> immediately.

If you are in the US, which that u in behavior suggest that you might not
be...

If you have an established HR process you have to follow it. Otherwise fire
him discreetly and then let people that hes moved on in a few days. Don't tell
either him or the employee that came to you that it has anything to do with
their interaction and if he asks specifically during the firing process turn
the tables on him and feign unawareness and ask what the hell he is talking
about. I wouldn't out her or acknowledge that you are aware of the incident to
him at all. If the employee who confided in you asks if that why he was fired,
just tell her that its a confidential matter and you really can't go into it.
I live and work in at will state and wouldn't bother to lawyer up if I went
this route (though it wouldn't be a bad idea), but I would wait til I was calm
enough to leak that he had done something really upsetting.

If you want to make an example out of him (or keep him around) you definitely
need to lawyer up.

------
orionblastar
Yeah talk to a lawyer first, listen to all of the people that say talk to a
lawyer.

Actually it is up to her to file a complaint with you or HR. If she does not
want to file a complaint, just add it to the employee's annual review that he
used inappropriate words with another employee. If he is still on probation as
a new employee it could violate that probation and you could fire him for
that.

You have to ask yourself how valuable is this new employee to your team and
company? Can he get some sensitivity training to learn not to speak that way
to a female employee? If he is very skilled and valuable you might want to
suggest the sensitivity training for him, if not he broke probation and can be
fired for it.

You don't have to use the employee's name that he sexually harassed. In fact
if you are in a state that has a no fault clause in the hiring and firing, you
could fire him without giving a reason. Just say something like his position
was removed due to budget problems, then create a new position to replace it
with a different name.

------
sheepleherd
Everybody saying "lawyer", ignore, that's expensive and bad advice, you
already know what the lawyer is going to say, lawyers are incredibly cautious
and not particularly flexible or business savvy in helping you, all you'll get
is a bill and no help with anything except what you already know couched in
terms of a lot of statements designed for future "I told you so"s

Fire: probably, but not because this infraction was so bad or impossible to
deal with (the victim herself said so) but because the guy appears to be a bad
egg, just really bad judgement and other employees or customers might not be
as adept as she is at dealing with it. So, unless his contract somehow
protects him, or he is God's Gift to Business Development and your company is
down the tubes without him (in which case you'll still need to figure out a
way to head-off/handle his future infractions (promote her above him?)), you
don't need to spend more time dealing with this.

------
BatFastard
Are you using a co-employer? Like Insperity?

If so take it to them immediately.

If not welcome to lawyer hell.

This is one great things about using a co-employer, HR in a bottle.

------
nerd-fight
Agree with Patrick on your next steps. So go do that.

My breakdown of the reasons to terminate:

1\. New employee did not follow broadly understood/legal courtship protocol
with female colleague. [e.g.: On tinder/okcupid/etc., you can try your luck
with "DTF?" or "You're a lovely MILF." Doing the same with a work colleague
(regardless of whether on the clock or not) is broadly accepted to be
harassment. Why? Because the parties are both colleagues who have to work
together. On okcupid, a recipient of "DTF?" can immediately block the sender.
Not so easy to do a colleague. Our legal system protects workers from
harassment. "MILF" isn't just a query about going out for coffee. It is a GOTO
jump over many protocol stages without ACKs from recipient.

2\. New employee is either ignorant of work-based courtship protocol, new
employee actively chose to disregard it, or perhaps new employee was drunk
during the exchange. It doesn't really matter. Either way, the guy does not
meet the standards to work in a professionally run company.

3\. By so flagrantly violating a commonly understood protocol [workplace
courtship] very early in his employment, the guy is demonstrating to his boss
that he is not worthy of trust and responsibility. Terminate him.

As for those few of you who think the guy should be given a break, this is
corporate worker bee 101 stuff. Sure he is sexually interested in a colleague.
There is no problem with that. The thing that is for very good reasons, your
fellow workers are protected from harassment. Dating a fellow worker requires
running a very different courtship protocol than picking up someone in a bar
or over tinder.

Unless you feel qualified to run corporate-dating-protocol from start to
finish (what will you do post hook-up/break-up?), please consider the advice
of our forebears: don't dip your pen in the company ink.

------
Tharre
First of all, the most important thing: talk to a lawyer. The real ones that
demand money, not random people from the internet. Sexual harassment is a
particularly nasty thing, because no matter what you do, judges will always be
biased against you: You did nothing? How dare you accept sexual harassment at
your company! You fired him? How dare you fire that innocent guy groundlessly!

Second of all, you _need_ to listen to his side of the story as well. People
are probably going to down-vote me for this one but taken out of context text
messages don't mean very much. His friends could've played a very bad joke on
him, the messages could be forged or he could've made an honest mistake.

Hell, if I were in your place I even would give the guy a second chance if he
honestly apologized. But do make sure you watch him closely if you decide to
take this route. These people do _not_ tend to improve.

------
BFatts
Seeing as he's new and she's not - kick him to the curb. Get rid of him before
he causes more headaches for you.

------
ascendantlogic
Sorry, but the person's gotta go. Get your lawyer on the phone, get the
documentation ducks in a row, then let the axe fall. If you let the harassed
employee know before hand is up to you, but I probably would a day or so
before so they could prepare, change their phone number or something if they
wanted, etc.

------
ilaksh
I don't know if what he was doing was 100% harassment or not but that word
makes it at least hard to argue its not.

The sad reality is that if a man makes advances towards a woman at work and
she isn't interested, it is very possible he will end up being terminated for
'sexual harassment' regardless of what words he uses. Because sexual
harassment effectively really boils down to any unwanted advance or even
flirtation. It shouldn't be that way, it should be about actual harassment,
but very few people are able to make such a distinction in a fair way.

So I don't think that in the current environment any sort of flirtation at
work is really a safe maneuver unless the woman makes obvious advances first.

I have a feeling people will slam me and this comment but I haven't been
downvoted very much this week so I guess it is time.

~~~
bandrami
_any unwanted advance_

 _it should be about actual harassment_

For your sake, I hope you realize that "an unwanted advance" is "actual
harassment".

~~~
ilaksh
For your sake, I hope you realize that people might not know that their
advance isn't wanted until they try it.

------
jwatte
She may say it's not a big deal, but it is. An employee who doesn't understand
"no" is a liability, now and in the future. That being said, details matter,
and you should deal with this using your HR and legal counsel. HN is not the
right place for this kind of advice.

------
kawera
Talk to your lawyer. And fire him anyway, there is no reason to keep a person
like this in your team, it will get worst. Then send a short and non-
inflammatory message to the rest of the company so everybody will know you
won't tolerate this kind of behavior and act swiftly on it.

------
Chris2048
Going to one of the founders over a weekend WA conversation, even bringing
evidence, sounds like she's trying to get the guy fired. This isn't something
that should be allowed to happen covertly, because it's ripe for abuse.

Other posters mention the phenomenon of avoiding interacting with women at
work. The threat of "she secretly went to top brass, and I was fired without
defence or cause" is exactly what might justify this.

The trust she placed in you is the trust that you'll keep her name out of
this, but if she's getting someone fired, that's not ok without a more
objectivity around the details. One side of the story is not objective - even
is that one side _turns out_ to be accurate, you can't know this in advance.

------
__34__
So what do I do HN? Do I fire him? Kick his ass? Get them in a room with a HR
rep and talk it out? Hold a "how to recognize sexual harassment seminar"?

Is threatening to beat him up for off hand comments (which have not been fully
presented) acceptable behaviour from an employer?

------
Coding_Cat
Even if the harrased employee has no problem with it, it is clear you
personally do and what will you do when you end up expanding or replacing
existing members of the team and he continues his harrasment?

If nothing else, that guy is a liabillity (and a dick).

------
tmaly
You really do not need something like this derailing your startup. Hire a
lawyer, and follow their advice.

Large companies like Intel give each employee rigorous sexual harassment
training, but this is not something startups can always afford to do.

------
matt4077
This is actually a chance to set your startup's atmosphere for years to come –
you should actually send the guy a gift basket. (1) Talk to the reporting
employee to explain why (2) has to happen. (2) Fire him, for cause,
publically, immediately. (3) Deal with any consequences of not talking to a
lawyer first.

If you're at the scale where a wrongful termination suit isn't an existential
risk to the company, you'll get bonus points if you actually lose in court.

As an employee, I'd work on weekends & nights for a boss who has a well-
adjusted moral compass and will sometimes disregard business interests to act
on it.

------
unstatusthequo
I'm a partner at a global law firm. We handle these pretty routinely for both
publicly traded and private companies alike. There are some funky theories in
this thread. Happy to help if you want to get in touch.

------
bhouston
I guess going forward, there should be clear employment policies that forbid
this type of behavior so the soon to be departing employee can not state that
he was unaware that this was not apprioriate behavior.

~~~
emodendroket
If you are not aware that sending crude sexual messages is not appropriate
behavior you have nobody but yourself to blame.

------
dman
Talk to your lawyer.

------
spriggan3
IANAL so talk to your lawyer first. Second write a policy regarding sexual
harassement, make it sign by every employee, so it's clear this kind of
behavior should not be tolerated.

The thing is if goes out of hand and for whatever reason the victim changes
her mind and decides to sue you on the ground that you did nothing to prevent
it you're f--cked. I've seen this before. So it's really about covering your
ass and the reputation of your business. I think there are enough examples (
Github, Google ...) to prove my point.

------
sixtypoundhound
SEE YA!

Door. ASS. Way Out. Consult a Lawyer if you feel like it.

This kind of thing doesn't get better.

------
allworknoplay
If someone hasn't said this already, I'd look at firing him as a "teachable
moment". It's not a negative, but rather a sign of unity, positivity, support,
and togetherness.

Framed correctly, anyone in the company who hears even a rough "person was let
go for a serious HR violation" (a lawyer will clarify who can hear what) will
come away from the experience with increased rather than diminished confidence
in their colleagies and your leadership.

EDIT to add: Also, she's not causing trouble, he is. Very simple.

------
forestjc
is it really sexual harassment? He tried clumsily to make a move on her and
she declined, if he tries again it's a red flag, but if he stop his behavior
you have nothing to worry about

~~~
tkmh
Referring to a colleague as a 'milf' is not 'clumsily making a move'. Everyone
knows what that's an acronym for. If you start a private chat with a
colleague, they tell you to keep it about work, and then you tell them you'd
like to fuck them, then you should expect to be fired.

------
mr-ron
By bringing it to you, it is now your problem. You can't have him on your team
continuing to think what he did was ok.

At the very least you need to bring it directly to him.

------
lakeeffect
I'd love to see a follow up of your decision and out comes. Possibly a tellHN
later on. The advice in these situations seems pretty consistent in this
unfortunate situation. Document, Lawyer, fire, support. If you do follow up id
be particularly interested in the outcome of the support piece of the puzzle
and how to balance group dynamics associated with the affected party in the
aftermath. Any kick back...etc.

------
rmason
By all means see a lawyer. Have the lawyer draw up an agreement of severance
where he agrees not to contest the firing and not share any trade secrets.

Then immediately let him go and offer him 3-4 months of severance. Generous
enough that he will sign it and immediately get out of your life. Then buy a
sexual harassment video course that all new hires are required to view on
their first day. Good luck!

------
cossovich
Eeek, please tell me you've anonymised the key details... HN isn't really a
great place for discussing sensitive/confidential information.

------
return0
This thread has become legal drama material. You have to scroll a lot of pages
for some sensible opinions. I don't think the OP solved his problem.

------
joantune
What happened to no harm no foul and a slap on the wrist this time and a clear
policy to everyone that if it happens again by anyone, it won't be tolerated.

Why do you guys jump to the extremes?

I'm not in the US lawyer up of A though, but common sense should apply.

That said, ask a lawyer first, because clearly that is the land where we get
our funny 'news' of 'someone when to court because of ludicrous action X, and
won'.

~~~
exclusiv
Yes it wasn't egregious, but I've learned that if clients or employees cause
problems early, the chances of it working out is very slim.

Plus, a big part of being successful in biz dev is to be able to read people
and interact professionally. This person is new and to do what they did shows
their 1) arrogance and 2) inability to read people.

Biz dev generally means investing in that person financially for some time
before getting a return as it takes time for them to ramp up and close deals.
Do you want to invest in someone like that and hope they'll change in fit your
culture or just move on?

~~~
joantune
Maybe it's part of his tactics :)

Well, you may be right on that.

Simply put, IMO what constitutes harassment is if after you hit on someone,
they tell you to stop, and you continue.

Or if you do something really bad as groping or saying something obscene.
Calling someone a MILF is borderline, he might be just a very honest guy that
said what he thought and meant it as a compliment (well, yeah.. a weird
compliment).

------
lbcadden3
She told someone up the management ladder. The business is now financially
libel if the situation is not aggressively corrected.

This can also apply to customers, not just co-workers.

Lawyers, good lawyers that know harassment law.

Worked for a company that had to settle a lawsuit before I started there.
Management meetings every six months on this the entire 5 years I worked
there, part of the settlement.

I have fired a coworker and banned a customer for this.

In US.

------
blazespin
Man, talk about CYA answers. A lawyer is probably going to give an answer that
covers their butt. They're going to chose the lowest risk legal route.

Your employee came to you in confidence. If there is a legal way out of this
that doesn't break that (maybe requires a bit of extra work), I'd chose it.

You have to realize how this could blow back on her in a big way.

------
babo
Get him out, this will not change. Ask your layer how to make it but you as a
founder has the right to select who to work with.

------
dragonwriter
Definitely talk to a lawyer if you don't already have clear HR processes to
handle this. It doesn't seem to me like a particularly egregious case, but
mishandling it could be trouble down the line in a number of ways, and you
need not only to handle it, but to be more prepared to handle -- and if
possible prevent -- the next one.

------
Havoc
>referred to her as a milf

Ouch. Office romance happens...a lot...but this guy just sounds tactless &
doesn't know when to back off.

------
SerLava
Tell her that you understand she doesn't want him fired, but that you need to
protect all your other employees. He _just started_. It's not about her- it's
about people who won't report it.

People who join your company later will be scared of existing employees, and
probably won't report it. You can't be party to this.

------
giis
>I've seen the evidence of the texts in question.

Is this smartphone? If so, ensure its not a rooted device, where users can
insert/delete things as they want.

\-- Let me add another view. Involve HR and talk to him first. If he admits
truth then ask him to resign. If he didn't accept, listen to his version of
story and ask him for proof. Then decide.

------
cj
Personally I would fire him after explaining to the victim that there's zero
tolerance for sexual harassment (after consulting our lawyer - have to do
these things by the book).

Ultimately it's up to you and how you want to define your company's culture.

------
ChoGGi
"told me she really doesn't want to cause problems with the team."

What people say and what people do are two different things, that and it could
open you up to further legal issues. Talk to a lawyer, then talk to him
(preferably with the lawyer).

------
makebelieve
I recommend introducing an explicit sexual harassment policy. Have each
employees sign that policy form indicating they understand the sexual
harassment policy and that violating it is an offense that will result in
termination.

------
IANAL
"The employee in question has made it clear that it's not a big deal and she
knows how to deal with it"

Get that in writing, keep an eye on the situation and move on. Get rid of that
person for another reason.

------
qaq
OK this might sound harsh but the dude needs to be fired not only because of
his conduct and legal risks the company could face, but because being a biz
dev he's key job skill is to read people well.

------
junto
Isn't he in his probationary period anyway? If he is I don't believe you need
a specific reason other that "not a good fit for the company".

As @patio11 said though. You need legal counsel.

------
empressplay
Fire them. If you don't, and they harass someone else, and it comes out they
did it before and you didn't fire them, you will be held responsible and it
will be extremely expensive!

Fire them!

------
protomyth
Lawyer

"it will be a violation of the trust"

Tell her that you really need to make sure there are no future problems with
the team and that is why you must fire the new biz dev. He broke faith, not
you or her.

------
empress_nikki
here are all the ways that people traditionally deal with sexism in the
office. This vid from DevOPs Days Con, explains the pros of cons of each
method. Going forward, implementing what you learn from this will go a long
way.
[https://youtu.be/M2mnDiWJhOY?t=2h27m26s](https://youtu.be/M2mnDiWJhOY?t=2h27m26s)

------
pbarnes_1
Are you serious?

Terminate. The end.

------
sverige
So many comments saying "Fire the guy" without any kind of investigation. And
almost universal acceptance that what the woman said is the end of the fact-
finding needed to make a decision.

In previous lives as a senior manager and litigation paralegal, I have had to
deal with dozens of sexual harassment claims, including the kind that end up
at the EEOC and a few that resulted in lawsuits. A good friend and former
coworker is a regional HR manager for a Fortune 100 company, and he has seen
everything under the sun.

OP, the only reason to do anything is because you're the founder and she
brought it to you. You don't have to do anything other than document her
conversation with you, but if you decide to stick your nose into it, here's
what my thought process would be:

First, even if it's a small startup, OP cannot discuss with the accuser what
action he takes with the accused beyond "I'll handle it." While this may
baffle many here, it's really none of her business since it involves the
accused's relationship with his employer. If he ends up firing the guy, she
can put 2 and 2 together, but he cannot provide details of disciplinary
action.

Second, he cannot announce to the rest of the employees that he fired the guy
for sexual harassment, only something along the lines of "he no longer works
here" with maybe some generic fluff about pursuing other opportunities. It's
none of their business either.

Third, he needs to talk to the guy. "But she showed him the texts!" someone
exclaims. "He called her a MILF!" That's one side of the story. Let's hear the
other side before jumping to conclusions. This all happened outside the work
context. We don't really know what the hell happened, only third-hand
reporting of one of the participants.

Fourth, let the HR person talk to the lawyer, if OP's startup is big enough to
have a dedicated HR person. If not, then yes, talk to a lawyer, but make sure
they've got some litigation experience. Too many HR lawyers are just overpaid
risk managers who don't have any clue of when to fight and when to fold and
pay.

Which brings me to my last point: I know it may be unpopular to say, but
sometimes women lie and manipulate just as well as men do.

At my senior manager job, I was accused several times of sexual harassment,
even though I scrupulously avoided any kind of personal conversation that
could lead to any hint of anything sexual with all coworkers, whether direct
or indirect reports, peers, or superiors. I never met behind closed doors with
women, except my boss, and she always left the blinds open and people felt
free to interrupt at any time. And yet, I was accused. None of those
accusations withstood scrutiny, but they were a gigantic PITA.

One crazy person even reported me to the FBI, after the EEOC found nothing
actionable! (Seriously. The issue was that I was her last resort for altering
an unfavorable survey given to her by a customer, and I refused to do so, for
sound business reasons.)

Texts can be faked. We don't know enough to know whether the accuser's story
is absolutely true and complete, and we certainly don't know her motives.

OP, find yourself someone with serious experience in employment law in your
jurisdiction to give you counsel. Pay their fees. Stop trying to do it on the
cheap by asking here, since it will do you no good and quite possibly do great
harm to follow 90% or more of the advice in this thread.

Edit: added paragraph about doing nothing, and fixed "autocorrect."

------
whatok
Any ideas why your employee brought it up to you (management) but does not
want you (management) to do anything about it?

~~~
ceejayoz
"I don't want to be seen as a problem, and I don't want this to be a case of
management portraying it as 'that guy we love got fired because X can't take a
joke'".

~~~
whatok
What is a manager supposed to do in this situation that does not lead to
something along the lines of that? In that case, why bother bringing it up?

~~~
icebraining
Keep an eye on him in case his behaviour persists? What may be reasonable and
innocent done once, turns into harassment if done repeatedly, but if one just
reports after many events, it's difficult to show the pattern.

~~~
whatok
I'd argue that calling someone a MILF in the workplace is already harassment.
The problem with passively sitting by is that it can introduce more problems
down the road because someone can claim that you passively sat by and fostered
a hostile work environment. The harasser also has more credence if you only
confront him until he does something else because at that point he can claim
he didn't know it was a problem.

------
traviswingo
First of all, talk to your lawyer. This is something that should have already
been in place and there should be literature to give to each employee during
their on-boarding.

Second, if the harassed employee does not wish you to do anything, the best
thing to do is to indirectly address the situation with a company-wide
seminar/meeting about the topic. List off all the things this employee did
that are intolerable - he'll get it really fast.

~~~
Mz
This is super bad advice. Clueless people who read company wide memos very
often have no idea that "We are talking about YOU, bub." I know, because I
used to get those department wide memos and almost always felt like raising my
hand and asking "So, um, this thing you are talking about...is...is that
something ___I_ __am doing?? Kthxbai. "

(No, this was not about sexual harassment per se.)

Edit: Additionally, if this guy does put two and two together, he may well
realize she told on him and this in no way protects her.

------
jrochkind1
Tell him don't do it again, or he'll be fired?

And check with your lawyer. Get a lawyer if you don't have one.

------
johnnyg
Lawyer + document + fire him.

This is a no brainer.

------
Bookmarkdotcom
Good Luck, I know this is a very touchy subject, sorry you have to go through
it.

------
Glyptodon
Fire him. This doesn't have to cause team problems or violate any trust.

------
jessfraz
Fire him

------
dav
Man I'd Like to Fire

------
tamana
You should not have posted all that detail here.

------
fullshark
Not share the incident on here for starters.

------
DyslexicAtheist
watch Silicon Valley :-)

------
kazinator
> _Please provide one example of using the term "MILF" in a professionally
> appropriate way._

"Team, some numbers are in. It seems our hot-milfs.xxx domain is bringing in
more ad revenue than the rest combined."

~~~
BFatts
That's not an example since you're talking about a website and it has a
compound name. Additionally it's the porn industry, obviously, so MILF might
be the okay word in that field. BUT in the software field where most people
don't use the term MILF except in very private ways, MILF is derogatory.
Whereas "Mother I'd Like to Fuck" isn't exactly a phrase that slips out in
general corporate conversation.

~~~
kazinator
Aw man, did you have to reply? :) I was about to delete that. It's a stupid
comment, attracting undeserved upvotes.

------
shrugger
Really can't stress it enough that you need to lawyer up before literally
anything else.

Do not talk to them, do not go into work, take sick days if you have to, don't
respond to emails, phone calls, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING until you have talked it
all out with your lawyer, and then do exactly what he instructs you to do.

Don't let this destroy your dream, friend! Especially over someone else's bad
choices. Be safe, lawyer up, get this taken care of and move on with the work.

------
jomamaxx
Write it all down, consult a lawyer. Have a heart to heart with the guy and
assess whether he just didn't understand or is a true creep. Let him know it
doesn't fly and that you'll be keeping an eye on him, talk to the girl make
sure she's cool with it.

Adults, move on.

All of you 'fire' 'lawyer' 'criminal' people are ridiculous.

It's a single word, out of work.

Imagine if two employees are dating. They are staying in each others flats.
They get in a fight at work. Words are spoken. Is that harassment?

We are human before we are corporate warriors. We say and do odd things.

If you are a human leader you'll be able to handle the situation without a
single thought moving forward.

Though I'd recommend putting it all in writing and documenting everything for
legal purposes.

If you are a good leader, this thing will never bubble up again.

You have a product to build, focus on that.

~~~
jameshart
You, er... you just called a woman a 'girl'. Did you mean to do that?

------
alansmitheebk
Is it sexual harassment B/C he asked her out or B/C he used the term "MILF" or
B/C she wasn't interested? Did the whatsapp portion of the conversation occur
at work or outside of work? Does your company have a policy that forbids
coworkers to date?

My former boss dated an employee who worked in a different department. People
at work knew and it was not considered a problem. No one got fired or sued. I
guess I'm trying to understand the difference here. It seems to me the major
difference is that in this case the woman wasn't interested. So is the
takeaway here that if you ask out a woman you work with she will either say
yes if she is interested or you will potentially be fired if she is not?

~~~
GVIrish
If you ask someone out at work and they tell you, 'as friends only' that
should be the end of your advances. If you continue past that point and say
stuff like, "You're a Mom I'd Like to Fuck" that is clearly into sexual
harassment territory.

One polite and appropriate invitation to hang out (to a single coworker) is
not sexual harassment. That is usually where the line is. Pushing after the
rebuff is almost always trouble.

------
Frozenlock
Wow.

So few information, but so many people ready to fire his ass.

At this point, I wonder if we should have men/women segregation in the
workplace. This is the logical conclusion if you want to avoid this kind of
problems.

~~~
munificent
> I wonder if we should have men/women segregation in the workplace.

That assumes all of your employees are heterosexual.

Once you assume some employees may be homosexual, bisexual, non-binary,
asexual, etc. you quickly get a graph where employees are nodes are edges are
"could possibly have unwanted attraction towards" that is not bipartite.

~~~
Frozenlock
You are right. I also forgot those identifying as unicornkin.

Remote work for everyone is the only solution. :-p

~~~
datalist
It really gets ugly once squirrels are in

[http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Z3UE4U9MXPAX/](http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Z3UE4U9MXPAX/)

------
Zelmor
This is a bannable offense. Fire him and let your employee know that she did
the right thing reporting such a thing. She did nothing wrong and should not
feel bad about other peoples' behaviour.

------
jomamaxx
It's a very interesting case, I wonder if there are any lawyers who would care
to comment?

------
Frozenlock
While your business might be your life, for most of your employees it's only a
job.

This means that for most of them, it must be pleasant. They must be able to
joke around and even, occasionally, flirt. If you try to turn every social
interaction into a perfectly professional unfriendly and unsexualised
environment, you will very quickly find that you are the only one left.

This is even more relevant in a small startup. In my experience, the worst
kind of work environment is a startup trying to act like a big multinational.
None of the perks, but all of the soulless experience.

I have nothing against firing someone for bad behavior. However, with the
little info you provided us, there is nothing serious.

Make sure the new employee knows that her colleague didn't like his approaches
and that it won't happen again.

You should also try to get both sides of the story.

Finally, you did say this:

> The employee in question has made it clear that it's not a big deal and she
> knows how to deal with it (...)

How is she going to react if you fire his ass? Wouldn't it be acting like she
can't take care of herself?

~~~
kazinator
> _How is she going to react if you fire his ass? Wouldn 't it be acting like
> she can't take care of herself?_

You know, it occurs to me you can't have this both ways: take care of yourself
_and_ rat out the fiend to the boss above.

"Hello, 911? There is a robbery at Elm and 41st. But _don 't send anyone, I
can take care of these dudes!_ One of the perpetrators saw me using my phone,
so if police arrive, they will know it was me! And that scares me --- _that
's_ how much I can take care of this myself!"

If you don't want some authority to take action, don't burden them with the
conflict of the knowledge and the request not to take action.

~~~
Frozenlock
I can't believe I didn't see it sooner.

That's blatant manipulation.

------
x5n1
I really don't understand the environment around sex and relationships in the
work place. It's messed up. Someone should be able to express interest and the
other person should be able to refuse it. Simple as that. But instead there is
a whole drawn out ritual around these things. It's not really grown up thing
that adults do, instead any male is looked at as an aggressive offender
looking to rape someone, unless the female is interested and the male is
supposed to know how at this moment the female is feeling. And the female is
apparently always fearing rape unless she is interested. I am sort of creating
hyperbole, but it seems as if the undertone is like that. On the surface I
guess it's that well I am uncomfortable with how the other person is acting,
but that should be resolved with some training or something, as when someone
is rude to someone else and they don't appreciate it. But so it goes.

~~~
scott_s
She _did_ refuse a romantic involvement by stating up front that she was okay
spending time outside of work _as friends_. That interaction is okay. But he
kept going. It's the "kept going" that is sexual harassment.

~~~
x5n1
Yeah I don't know how the whole thing progressed. But it's a fine line and I
guess he crossed it.

~~~
dimino
No, it's not a fine line, it's a thick line that's visible _miles_ away.

You don't tell people you want to fuck them at work.

~~~
Chris2048
* not at work

------
littletimmy
When you say, referred to her as a milf, do you mean to her face? Or to
someone else in a private conversation?

If you take that out of the picture, then talking on Whatsapp, and asking to
hang out, and telling a secret, do not constitute any sexual harassment. This
is particularly true if we are talking about just one conversation after which
the person did not persist. Should investigate that milf comment, however.

I am rather surprised by the number of people just saying that he should be
fired. Really? Showing the littlest bit of attraction and then getting shut
down is not harassment. You want to take away a person's livelihood for that?

~~~
icebraining
I think people here are assuming that the other employee had a reason to go to
the OP and show him the text, and that OP has a reason for being "really upset
by th[e] guy's behaviour".

------
NateDad
Fire him. Period. He'll do this to someone else who might not report it.

Anyone who calls a woman a milf to her face has NO respect for women, and will
cause problems with women at the company in 1000 other small ways (and
possibly big ways).

Be that guy that says he's not going to let this shit slide, and then actually
follows through.

Of course the woman said she doesn't want to cause trouble... she's trying to
cover her own ass to make sure that you're not going to get mad at her (yes,
I'm sure it crossed her mind). She reported it to you for a reason. Because it
was _completely_ unacceptable.

Fire him. Fire him. Fire him.

And then explain to the rest of the company _exactly_ why he was fired. And
that you're not going to tolerate that behavior. You can leave out details of
who and why, even white lie if there's only one woman on the team, that it was
a friend or something...

If you work in a state without at-will employment, you might need to talk to a
lawyer... hopefully your HR team can help you figure out the safe way to do
it. But do it. Even if it's not safe. Do it because it's the RIGHT thing to
do.

------
SFJulie
Don't use a lawyer. Read the penal text. Make yourself an opinion. And act
according to the rules and preferably use written procedures without shaming.
You can however make an "unrelated" meeting if you want to make yourself clear
stating the law, and the process your company is following.

[https://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/harassment-
facts.html](https://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/harassment-facts.html)

------
logfromblammo
From a legal standpoint, you need do nothing. He is not in any position to
commit quid pro quo harassment. So far, there is no evidence of hostile
workplace.

What your female employee has done is to cover her own ass in case the new
male employee engages in any work-inappropriate behavior. If she comes to you
again, and claims harassment, you are primed to believe her immediately and
take immediate, appropriate action at that time.

Don't fire him. Don't kick his ass. Don't have a meeting with HR. Write down,
"Ms. Y stated on [datetime] that Mr. X propositioned Y to upgrade beyond a
work-only relationship, and Y declined. Y presented sufficient evidence to
substantiate this claim." Attach a copy to both of their personnel files.

In two weeks, six weeks, and twelve weeks, proactively hold 1-on-1 meetings
with all your employees, including Mr. X, and ask them if they feel as though
Mr. X is assimilating well into the workplace. If no one has any complaints,
even after you go fishing for them, there is no evidence of hostile workplace,
and you have no further business with your employees' personal relationships.

It isn't your business to manage your employees' personal lives. It is your
business to provide them with a safe, cordial, and productive work
environment. It isn't your business to remediate unsavory bro-havior. I don't
like how sales and biz dev tend to work in the real world, but I know that
sometimes that kind of behavior is beneficial to a business. I just don't hang
out with that sort of people in a social context. I prefer that their oily
schmoozing be directed at potential customers, and I'm sure they prefer that I
not ruin their good time with my dry-toast nerdity.

Personally, though, I would question the judgment of a _biz dev_ employee
whose first act in a new camp is to dig his latrine next to the watering hole.
Aren't they supposed to cultivate new business relationships _outside_ the
company?

~~~
NateDad
It's not their personal lives. It was in work time, initiated through work
channels. And even if it was at a bar after work, it would still be rude and
indicative of the kind of personality you don't want at your company. Waiting
for him to slip up and hoping someone will report it is a horrible solution.

It's not like he said "hey nice haircut" and it was taken the wrong way. He
called her a milf. There's no ambiguity.

Fire him.

~~~
logfromblammo
I completely disagree. OP stated this communication took place during the
weekend, via Whatsapp, rather than Slack. Clearly, this was personal business,
through personal channels, on personal time.

If it was at a bar after work, there would be no reason for us to know about
it other than the suspicion that it _might_ later spill over into work
matters. Zero tolerance is a horrible way to run _anything_ , not just a
business.

It is true that "at will" employment means you can be fired at any time, for
any reason, or no reason at all, but if you choose to run your business that
way, do not be surprised when otherwise disassociated people abandon ship.

If I worked at this company and discovered that a co-worker had been fired on
a justification this flimsy, I would be job hunting again at 5:01 PM that very
day. Firing is an _extremely disproportionate_ response to making a failed
proposition to a co-worker on personal time, through personal channels.

As immediate termination seems to be a somewhat popular response here, I just
have to say " _What the Hell is wrong with you people?_ " You are now building
the world you will have to live in later. I hope you appreciate the irony when
popular sentiments change and your livelihood is subsequently threatened
because your lifestyle and opinions are now unpopular.

You are, in all seriousness, advocating loss of employment and potentially
long-lasting career damage as extrajudicial punishment for the heinous crime
of _privately sending inappropriate text messages_.

