
The quest for freedom and safety: Why I donated $100,000 to YesOn19 - paul
http://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2010/10/quest-for-freedom-and-safety-why-i.html
======
jbail
Stemming the flow of money to brutal drug lords is reason #1 to rethink the
current drug policies. Glad to see that point spelled out so clearly. What's
going on in Mexico is truly heartbreaking.

Marijuana is clearly a big piece of the puzzle, but what about legalizing
harder drugs like cocaine?

EDIT: Removed the question because I saw another HN'er posted it. Then added
it back when Paul responded so it'd make sense in context.

~~~
kqr2
In 2001, Portugal decriminalized drugs. Data since then seems to indicate that
the policy was successful.

 _rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth
graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined.
Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although
there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV
infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related
to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the
number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction
rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on
enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well._

[http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.ht...](http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html)

[http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/03/14...](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/03/14/portugal/index.html)

~~~
slowpoison
Anybody comment on what the situation is in Amsterdam, where pot is legal, at
least, in small quantities?

~~~
ugh
_… as I understand it there are two main problems with the status quo. One is
that under the old tolerance regime there’s still no way for a coffee shop to
legally obtain the supply of marijuana you need to operate on the scale of a
business. Consequently, de facto legalization hasn’t actually eliminated the
black market and associated criminality. Secondarily, the main market for the
coffee shops turns out to be drug tourists from abroad. That reduces the Dutch
political constituency for keeping them open. And the two factors interact
together to create a situation where there’s a strong case to be made that
legal coffee shops (by bringing drug tourists from the UK and the US into
shops that need to tap an illegal wholesale market to gain their supplies)
increase the scale of organized crime in the Netherlands._

– [http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/10/coffee-shop-
crackd...](http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/10/coffee-shop-crackdown/)

~~~
mambodog
So really, legalisation would work a lot better if all countries did it
(eliminating drug tourism).

~~~
anthonyb
No, you just need to avoid doing it in a half-hearted manner. In the case of
Holland, why shouldn't there be drug tourism? Why is it any worse than, say,
coffee tourism? or wine and food tourism?

~~~
mturmon
Because the people drawn to drug tourism are more irresponsible, shallow, and
opportunistic than your average tourist. Not always, sometimes not
outrageously so, but in general. If you've been to Amsterdam, you might have
noticed this, as I did.

~~~
kablamo
I was surprised Amsterdam seemed to maintain a clean, moderate, respectable
attitude during daylight hours. I noticed the city is an insanely wealthy and
beautiful place. I would guess they are making a ton of money off tourists.

------
hfinney
Why are all these donations happening so late? It's four days until the
election. Half the electorate has already voted, and the rest are tuning
everything out by now. Prop 19 is failing and it's too late for advertising to
make a difference. Where were all these deep pockets a month ago?

~~~
paul
Better late than never :)

Apparently a very large fraction of voters actually make their decision _while
in the voting booth_!

------
hugh3
I'm sorry, but this thread is _really_ just politics. I know Paul Buchheit's
own submission of Paul Buchheit's article about why Paul Buchheit donated some
money to a political cause has Buckley's chance of being deleted, but, y'know,
it really is just political advocacy on a subject unrelated to anything other
than politics. I hate to be a dick here, Paul, but, y'know.

~~~
paul
For me, it's all connected. The SF area is one of the most innovative places
in the world because in it's also one of the most free places in the world.

~~~
ciupicri
Speaking of freedom, are people are allowed to drink beer on the beach? Are
teenagers allowed to drink _small_ quantities of alcohol?

Without these I don't think that you can consider SF one of the most free
places in the world.

~~~
mturmon
That's a weird definition of freedom.

~~~
davidw
It's a part of it though. Why can someone who is 20 in the US get married,
have children, join the military, and vote, but not drink a beer?

I agree with hugh3 in any case. This is an article about politics, and no
matter how much we may want to cheer paul on, I am not really sure it's
germane, and that it might encourage others to submit things they feel 'rah
rah!' about.

------
kristofferR
Damn, I really hope Prop 19 passes. I'm not even American, but a passage would
mark the start of the end of the dreadful war on marijuana around the world.
Other states would follow, then Latin America (the former Mexican President
said "May God let it pass" about Prop 19), countries in Europe (Netherlands,
Spain, Denmark) and slowly it would be legalized around the world. Defeat
would be a major setback.

I urge all Californians who're reading this to do their absolute best to make
it pass in these last vital days. Join the phone banks, make sure all your
friends are voting, campaign at universities. It could make a large
difference, larger than you probably think.

~~~
dotBen
_Other states would follow, then... countries in Europe (Netherlands, Spain,
Denmark)_

It already is legalized in Netherlands and decriminalized _(I believe)_ in
Spain and Denmark, as well as UK (although that's about to change back I
hear).

~~~
kristofferR
It's just decriminalized in the Netherlands actually, the coffeshops are
tolerated, but not legal. Producing marijuana is not legal at all.

~~~
rabble
It's also completely decriminalized in Portugal, it worked well. California
jails so many people on pot charges.

------
credo
Prop 19 is limited to marijuana, but almost everything in your post is
applicable to other drugs (cocaine etc.)

Would you vote yes on a future proposition that legalizes all drugs ?

~~~
wnoise
That question doesn't have to be decided now. We can look at the effects of
Prop 19, and see what the results suggest about legalizing cocaine, heroin, or
even pseudoephedrine.

~~~
netcan
Exactly. Even if you are a complete anti prohibition believer, you will
probably take route. In other words, even if you decided to legalise
everything, a good strategy would be to start with marijuana, see the effects,
add some more drugs to the list, etc.

------
rmorrison
I am a firm supporter of Prop 19, but I have one major concern: that as
cannabis laws are eased in the US, gangs and criminals that used to make their
living from pushing cannibis will start pushing harder drugs (like cocaine),
causing an increase in violence (as more people fight for a smaller market)
and heavier drugs getting pushed on school children.

I suspect (though I haven't researched further) that the recent crime uptick
in northern Mexico is due to the easing of cannabis laws across America over
the past few years, and that it'll just get worse after Prop 19 is passed.

Personally, I think the solution is to legalize all drugs, and to put the
money that we're spending on the war on drugs into medical treatment and
education. It's obviously a difficult situation, but I'm glad to see that
we're making progress.

~~~
rick888
"Personally, I think the solution is to legalize all drugs, and to put the
money that we're spending on the war on drugs into medical treatment and
education. It's obviously a difficult situation, but I'm glad to see that
we're making progress."

So we make it easier for someone to become an addict and then pay millions to
treat them? I also fail to see how education is going to work. The education
people need is to tell them to stay away from drugs in the first place.

~~~
squidsoup
Simply telling kids to stay away from drugs is a paternalistic approach that
doesn't work, particularly when you consider that teenagers tend 'rebel'
against advice from authority. Genuine education would inform without bias,
and allow people to make informed, safe choices.

------
hasenj
> If we are always held back by our own fears and self-limiting beliefs, then
> we aren't really free.

Similarly, if we are controlled by our desires, we're not really free. An
addict is not really free because he can't control himself.

> Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
> safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Drugs are definitely not essential.

> prohibition also provides a multi-billion dollar subsidy to violent criminal
> organizations that threaten our physical safety and security

Crime networks exist not because of strong government or strict laws; they
exist because of moral corruption in the society. A strong government,
strongly connected coherent society with powerful social moral values actually
reduce the size and power of crime networks.

------
seanalltogether
I find conversations about the black market in general to be an interesting
topic on the desires of society versus the realities of society and how we
attempt to reign in human behavior.

My personal stance is that governments need to admit that the black market is
a fundamental condition of humanity, and trying to stamp it out is impossible.
However it is the governments responsibility to monitor the black market and
prevent it from becoming too large, and the only way of doing that is to
legalize the most popular activities found within the black market.

If America legalized prostitution, marijuana and cocaine today, i would guess
that the black market would be put on life support here in the states.

------
johngalt
What I've always found odd about pot smokers:

They will generally have a diatribe about "evil corporations are poisoning us
with HFCS/Vaccines/GM food/etc..." Meanwhile they are saying that the federal
government _shouldn't_ regulate what someone puts in their body.

Personally I'd like to err on the side of freedom, but all the same there are
real risks out there. We can't expect society/government to take care of all
dangers, then turn around and say "I should be able to take whatever I want!"

Or to put it more bluntly imagine medicare costs if we legalize all drugs.
Imagine the emergency rooms?

~~~
aneth
I think that people who think this way tend to smoke pot, not the other way
around. There are plenty of fully functional pot smokers without conspiracy
theories.

This is like sitting in a bar listening to the same sob stories repeated week
after week at a local dive bar and saying all drinkers are defeatist losers.

~~~
rick888
"I think that people who think this way tend to smoke pot, not the other way
around. There are plenty of fully functional pot smokers without conspiracy
theories."

Smoking pot makes many people paranoid. This is fact. It's not that far of a
stretch to imagine that these people are conspiracy theorists.

"This is like sitting in a bar listening to the same sob stories repeated week
after week at a local dive bar and saying all drinkers are defeatist losers."

When you hear the above from many different groups of people in different
parts of the US/world that smoke pot, it really makes you wonder.

------
stretchwithme
Right on. The drug war is a huge waste of money and lives and foreign policy
capital. It needs to end.

I really feel drug rules (not laws) need to be set at the neighborhood level
by simple majority vote.

That way you can live where the limits suit you and you don't need to try to
control what the whole country does.

Freedom is not just about allowing everyone to do anything. Its also about
people being able to make the living arrangements that suit them without
having to impose their choices upon others.

Its too much work anyway, always fighting these battles. Lets call a truce and
go our separate ways together.

------
philwelch
I really wish I lived in CA so I could vote for this. We had a similar
initiative here in WA, but they didn't get enough signatures to put it on the
ballot.

------
Mz
I don't know what the answer is. But whenever a topic like this comes up, I
can't help but think about Prohibition and how it failed to stop people from
drinking alcohol and, instead, just created powerful crime lords. Ultimately,
it was repealed (but only _after_ Capone and the whole legendary Chicago
gangland era).

------
ChRoss
Sorry for my ignorance, since I'm living in Asia, and I have never deal with
drugs, so my knowledge are basically from news.

How is this Prop19 will 'surely' change everything? Especially related to drug
cartel.

~~~
eli
If people are allowed to buy, sell, and even grow their own drugs legally they
will no longer have to participate in a black market that often benefits
Mexican drug cartels.

~~~
ChRoss
Well I'm not sure if they can grow it. But, isn't that mean you're going to
provide a legal way for the cartel to make money? Now they can sell in legal
market, and sure more people will be able to consume it since it's legal now,
and the cartel will make 'more' money?

My previous question is actually to find out what kind of measurement,
precaution or whatever it is, to make sure that Prop19 will cripple drug
cartels, without creating another problem.

~~~
eli
Yes, Prop 19 will let you grow a small amount of marijuana for personal use.
But it will certainly never be legal to _smuggle_ drugs across the border.

Moreover the profit margins go way down because you are no longer covering the
risk of arrest to those growing and supplying the drug.

------
VladRussian
The most powerful CA union - prison guards union. More convicts - more power
to the union. Most of the convicts are war on drugs victims, with majority -
marijuana related.

~~~
hristov
What is your point? AFAIK the prison guards union is not against prop 19, they
said they are neutral.

~~~
VladRussian
They aren't that direct. Look at least an inch deep beyond the surface, What
they do, whom they support. For example, in the Oakland mayor race among the 2
front runners, one favors more police cuts vs. cuts in public programs (like
after school, etc...) while the other would cut 180 degrees differently.
Question: whom the union supports? Hint: whose policies would allow for higher
yield and harvesting of more inmates? Bonus question: why would the union
support anybody in the Oakland mayoral race?

------
Dennis_
Hats off to this fellow for promoting freedom and liberty. I am glad that
people are slowly starting to realize we don't have a right to tell others
what they can do with their bodies. If 19 passes it will be one tiny prick in
the side of the petty tyrants who believe they have a right to force others to
follow their views.

------
0-4
What about the freedom and safety of being able to breathe clean drug free
air?

edit: yay hackernews! Just downmod me because your liberal hippy viewpoints
disagree. The chances of prop19 passing are 0.

~~~
dannytatom
I'm pretty sure this won't allow you to walk around town smokin' blunts.

~~~
guelo
I think that's exactly what it will let you do, that's the whole point.

~~~
dannytatom

      Except as permitted under Proposition 215 and SB 420 laws, persons age 21 and older may:
    
      use marijuana in:
        a non-public place such as a residence or
        a public establishment licensed for on site marijuana consumption.
    

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_19_(2010...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_19_\(2010\)#Effects_of_the_bill)

~~~
hasenj
Sooner or later it will be legal everywhere, just wait and see.

------
siegler
I haven't studied Prop 19 at all, but my guess is that its primary purpose is
to get democrats to the polls. It's just like all the 'defense of marriage'
propositions that were on the ballot when Bush was trying to get reelected to
get republicans to the polls.

If so, that's quite a way for a libertarian to waste $100k.

edit: I love the open debate. Yeah, legalizing pot is definitely the most
pressing problem facing our nation, so let's downvote anybody who says
differently. HN is turning into Reddit.

~~~
prodigal_erik
Consider how many people are stuck in cages for no good reason over this. If
some organization other than the government were kidnapping that many people,
solving that problem would be a high priority.

Besides, the opportunity cost is zero to not lock these people up. It's not as
if some other problem is going unsolved in favor of taking this law off the
books.

~~~
rick888
"Consider how many people are stuck in cages for no good reason over this. If
some organization other than the government were kidnapping that many people,
solving that problem would be a high priority."

Consider how much money the government is stealing from its citizens for no
good reason. If some organization other than the government were doing this,
solving the problem would be high priority..

The reason it's not high priority is because those people knowingly used an
illegal substance and got caught. I also think you are over-estimating the
amount of causal drug users in prison.

~~~
prodigal_erik
> knowingly used an illegal substance and got caught

That can be a reason to believe they should remain imprisoned, but not a
reason to believe they should be released but it's not a priority to do that
anytime soon.

> over-estimating the amount of causal drug users in prison

It's possible. The drug war has vastly increased prison populations, but it's
hard to come by unbiased statistics about how many of those people committed
any non-victimless crimes.

