
Ask HN: What's it like to live in San Francisco? - markrankin
How are the people and what&#x27;s the current attitude like?
======
a13n
I lived there for 3 years and left a year ago. I lived in Nob Hill, Mission,
Noe, and Castro.

When I was first there, I felt a strong disgust towards tech. People
protesting shuttles, hateful graffiti, news articles about it. Tech workers
were moving in troves and driving up rent and people getting displaced. I felt
like part of the problem.

Market Street is a mix of insanely wealthy and insanely poor people. Other
cities around California send their homeless people to SF, so there are
thousands of them and SF can't support them all. It's not uncommon to see
shouting, needles, and human feces. Every time I walked down that street I
felt awful I couldn't do something to help.

Meanwhile, you step inside a tech office, and you'll see luxurious decor, free
lunch, Macbook Pros, and many people making top 1% income for their age. The
contrast is staggering.

People I've met in tech vary from the most passionate about work I've ever
met, to just there to make a great living and enjoy the nature/weather.
Nothing wrong with either lifestyle. San Francisco is a beautiful little hilly
city with plenty to do nearby.

It did feel like a hard place to have non-liberal values, but I think people
just mean well and are passionate about improvement.

Everything is expensive. Coffee is $4-6 plus tax and tip. Groceries are double
where I'm from (Seattle suburbs). Rent is crazy. Office space is crazy.

Hope that helps!

~~~
bsvalley
+1 I’d just add one thing, would you pay $1 million for a studio in the middle
of all that? You could live right next to your office and enjoy everything
(mentioned above) that the city has to offer while writting code all day.
Sounds like a healthy and dreamy life.

------
ralusek
There are many different neighborhoods with pretty different feels, but
generally speaking I would say this:

The city is dirty, there are many homeless people, public infrastructure is
not great (bad roads, questionable public transit), and it is the most
expensive rent in the world. Culturally, it is much less "gay" and "hippie"
nowadays, and almost entirely "tech," at least in my own experiences. If
you're a software engineer, there are plenty of jobs and you will never have
issue finding work. The pay, in general, is excellent. If you're NOT a
software engineer, I'm not sure.

~~~
collyw
> If you're a software engineer, there are plenty of jobs and you will never
> have issue finding work.

Even over 40? I am genuinely curious.

~~~
aliston
I am kind of worried about this myself. On the other hand, everyone I know
over 40 in tech is making enough money to retire in less than a decade
assuming some decent personal finance skills. It could be survivorship bias,
but I think you’re fine. Even if you have trouble getting hired in 5 years,
you’ll have a million+ in the bank to fall back on and retrain in something
else.

------
loggedinmyphone
From 2005-2010 the city had a very positive vibe: we're the most European city
in America, we love good food, we have a balance of artists and people who
support the arts. Now it's overcrowded, overvalued and overcapitalized. Rather
than being welcomed, you will be resented and perceived as pushing other
people out. Oakland has a more friendly and creative feel these days, if you
can deal with the pervasive criminal element and left-wing monoculture. Plan
to make your money and get out.

~~~
nailer
> we're the most European city in America

New York?

~~~
manuelflara
As a European who has been a few times to both NY and SF, SF seems a lot more
European to me. But couldn't tell you why exactly. I guess SF is more relaxed
in many ways and NY is way too intense (which I love, but it's not something
one finds in Europe).

~~~
nailer
I don't know, I find SF very Californian - people are enthusiastic about
everything, even if they aren't being genuine.

NY feels more real - as in London, Berlin or Paris, someone will tell you if
something's shit. NY also obviously has a comparable arts scene. Apparently
there's a SF Fashion Week but it's sure isn't in international calendars.
People from NY seem to have travelled more than people from SF too.

Maybe SF is more like, say, one of the Spanish cities in terms of being
relaxed?

------
chatmasta
I interned there in 2012. My roommate and I got super lucky his family friend
hooked us up with $1200/month for a condo at the top of Lombard St in Russian
Hill. So my experience is slightly biased since I miraculously avoided the
ludicrous rent. I don’t know what we would have done had we not secured that
place.

In general, I really liked it. My favorite part was feeling like I was living
in the future, since every new app launches in SF first. For example, back
then Uber was quite new and I used it for the first time there. My least
favorite part was the monoculture of tech (that’s not even considering the
political monoculture). While there are a lot of interesting non-tech people
in SF, you have to go out of your way to meet them. Otherwise the default is
to be surrounded 24/7 by clones of yourself.

I interned in SF, Seattle and Houston. After school I lived in NYC for a year.
Now I’m in the UK, but if I had to choose between those cities I would pick
New York every time.

New York has plenty of problems but a monoculture is not one of them; it’s
still fairly homogenous, but far less than SF simply because the NYC economy
is more diversified. In SF, tech is the dominant and basically only industry.
In NYC, tech is one of many industries in a city dominated by finance and law.

Put another way, of all my friends in college, 100% of them living in SF are
in tech. But many of them live in NYC, and of those people, only some are in
tech and the rest are in finance/law/school (nyc has top schools in the city
proper unlike SF). I much prefer living near friends in other fields, because
the last thing I want to talk about when I get home from work is work.

------
enra
Coming from Northern Europe, I still find SF a place it would be hard to
leave. If you're in tech, there is no better place to be, in terms of
learning, career progression and the overall interest. Think about any
technology you're interest in, and you're probably a coffee shop away to talk
people who work on it or lead the work. In Europe, I'd often feel how lacking
and not interesting the environment is in many ways. People don't have much
experience and don't often have high ambitions (since there isn't many good
examples).

Salaries and equity options are probably higher than anywhere, and its more
likely here that those options actually turns something in worthwhile. While
rents are expensive, it can be still potentially financially better.

Restaurants, places to go, nature and travel is pretty great overall, there is
lot to do.

The quality of living is not really on the same level as in Europe. Lot of the
city is quite dirty, not all of it though. If you have a family, its likely to
be much more costly in everything. Houses are expensive, and probably there
isn't anything to fix that in the near future. I think the protesting against
tech has somewhat subdued, you don't really hear about it.

Overall, after living here for a while, you get jaded about all the startup
stuff. Its not what you need to do all the time, but it can be still quite
interesting to see and hear everyone around you to try new ideas.

People are leaving, but not really seeing that the area is slowing down. There
are more great companies now than there was 10 years ago.

Sometimes, I think about moving back to Europe or somewhere else, and don't
really feel excited about the job prospects or the overall work environment.
It would be hard to find anything remotely similar roles that I've been able
to do here.

~~~
diplocorp
As Northern European with ambitions to move to a US tech hub one day, I am
interested in knowing a bit of your background. Did you go to school in the
US? How did you acquire your visa? Were you sponsored by an employer or did
you go through the lottery? etc.

~~~
enra
Our company got accepted YC which made us to move here during YC and then just
stayed. I had visited the Bay Area few times in previous here.

The YC didn't really help or matter much for the visas, it just meant that we
had a reason to be here, and our company in US that could sponsor us our
visas. As a company owner, you cannot really do H1B easily, so we (2 Finnish
founders) applied for O1 visa. We both had some previous projects and
background, including the startup, that we could use to make our case for the
O1. For O1 you need public evidence: press articles, conference talks,
mentoring, lectures etc to prove that you have specific expertise in some
category. I actually didn't even graduate, it didn't matter. A year ago, I
upgraded my status to green card.

I would recommend signing up for the green card lottery each year, since its
pretty easy and good probability to get one in the Nordics. Secondly, I would
just visit here couple times, try to get know people and how things work. Then
you can start building your "resume". Resume here often means actual visible
projects you built, interests etc. European schools or companies doesn't
matter much in interviewing for jobs. What matters is your skills, how you can
show them and how well you can sell them.

One route is also taking a job in a company that has office in Europe, and
then after a year, try to ask for a transfer to US HQ.

------
newnewpdro
The place is geographically incredible, great climate, beautiful scenery, lots
to do and many diverse activities are a relatively short drive away.

Having said that, living there can be kind of awful. It's become quite a
monoculture of tech people, which brings with it the same gender imbalance you
find in the tech workplace. It's very expensive, dirty, poorly maintained, not
the safest city and it's not uncommon to have your vehicle windows smashed or
otherwise broken into.

There's also significant tension from the gentrification when I was last there
~6 months ago, depending on the neighborhood. If you're visibly a part of that
gentrification force (e.g. a white male yuppy with a backpack), don't be
surprised if some drunk mexican in the mission starts a fight with you for no
apparent reason. This happened to me on two separate occasions, completely
unprovoked, and I didn't even spend that much time in the mission.

~~~
obibring
I had the same experience in the Mission my first time there.

------
code4tee
SF used to be a very diverse and culturally interesting city. That city has
died. It’s become a monoculture around tech to a fault.

Other cities with highly successful and growing tech scenes (like NYC) have a
much more diverse economy that, IMO, keeps things far more dynamic and
interesting. NYC for example has finance, law, diplomacy, tv/film, theatre,
music, fashion, and many other big industries that have a strong presence.

SF and the region is just becoming tech tech tech at the expense of everything
else. Its one time greatest strength is rapidly becoming its greatest
weakness.

------
nmca
The wealth inequality is acute, visible and disturbing.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Is it more visible than London, for example? I know people talk about it a lot
but you see some extreme wealth inequality in many big cities.

(Just genuinely curious, it's not a trick question)

~~~
mayniac
I live in London, visited LA (not SF but kind of similar?)

The wealth inequality was massively more visible in LA. Far more homeless
people. Neighbourhoods were either rich or poor, there wasn't any mixing. OFC
London has similar problems, you're going to see more luxury cars than
homeless people in Chelsea and vise versa in Brixton, but LA felt like it had
gone a lot further. The projects in LA are also far more run down than council
estates in London, at least from outward appearances. Agree with what the
other comment says too: there isn't really much of a middle ground, it all
felt like everyone either has a six figure trust fund or is almost homeless.

I've been saying this in various places for a while, but the predominant
difference between the UK and the US is the size. Since it's a much bigger
country and they have more space, everything is spread out far more. In London
I live in a mainly working class (stabby) neighbourhood, but I walk ten
minutes and I'm surrounded by houses all worth £1m+. Same thing in every flat
I've had in London. In American cities you walk ten minutes and you're still
on the same street. It leads to huge buildups of either run down or expensive
neighbourhoods which keep themselves very, very isolated from each other and
it shows. SF is a bit more walkable from what I've heard but the general
problem is still there.

~~~
pdfernhout
Another difference between the UK and the USA besides size is wealth of the
country; see: [https://www.greanvillepost.com/2011/08/12/generation-
fcked-h...](https://www.greanvillepost.com/2011/08/12/generation-fcked-how-
britain-is-eating-its-young/) "British children have the most miserable
upbringing in the developed world. Is it a coincidence that the US and Britain
are now the two developed nations with the most savage and cynical capitalism
and deepest class fissures? ... “The reason our children’s lives are the worst
among economically advanced countries is because we are a poor version of the
USA,” he said. “So the USA comes second from bottom and we follow behind. The
age of neo-liberalism, even with the human face that New Labour has given it,
cannot stem the tide of the social recession capitalism creates.”"

As I suggest here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vK-
M_e0JoY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vK-M_e0JoY) alternatives include
some culturally appropriate mix of:

* improved subsistence through developing and distributing better tools and know-how for off-grid living like solar panels, 3D printers, mobile microhouses, composting toilets, and gardening robots

* expand the gift economy for both physical and digital goods

* soften capitalism's exchange-based social harshness with a basic income

* better democratic planning to insure public infrastructure to meet everyone's needs (e.g. convert prisons to artist dorms; ensure free food and water is available eveywhere; better automated clean public bathrooms; expanded libraries and health services)

------
blegit
The current attitude is tech and homelessness and everything in between.

All the artist and musicians have moved to Oakland instead of living in the
mission.

Its a sunny 70 degrees year round, except for in the summer its foggy by the
ocean everyday.

Unemployment rate is extremely low (2.2%), but the rent is extremely high.

If you thinking of moving here, just do it. Everyone here is from somewhere
else and came to chase a dream that they feel that SF can fulfill. And its
true, dreams do come true in SF if you work hard enough towards your goals.
But thats true with anywhere. Just in SF, if you don't have your ish together,
you'll be homeless and booted out real quick. At least you got to have time in
SF though.

~~~
DrScump

      Its a sunny 70 degrees year round
    

No, it isn't. In fact, it's May and it hasn't been over 61 in over 2 days. And
it's not usually sunny except September-November.

------
Mister_X
Could you ask a more general question please?

Oh, what the heck, I'll give you a general answer, you may get some benefit
from it.

San Francisco, i.e. The City (NOT Frisco), never changes once you're in a
neighborhood, everyone is different, some people are friendly, some not, just
like any large city.

The time I spent there was fantastic, walking to the store, great neighborhood
restaurants, friendly shop owners, amazing art and always interesting
graffiti.

The Castro is still fun to walk through if you're not a homophobe and one of
the best kept secret hard to find restaurants is there, Orphan Andy's, real
comfort food 24 hours a day.

The public transportation is totally adequate and one can get around town
without too many transfers.

Despite the hills, it's a very walk-able town, I walked all over the place, it
was nice seeing all the different neighborhoods on foot.

Like any location, you get out of it what you put in.

I hear it's way expensive to live there now, even my sister who lived there
for 40 years sold her Bernal Heights house and moved North to Santa Rosa.

~~~
partycoder
That's right.

\- Right: San Francisco, SF or "The City".

\- Wrong: "Frisco", "San Fran", "415".

If you want to act "friscan" people get pretty upset very fast.

~~~
vram22
I seem to remember "Frisco" being used in Western novels I read as a kid,
though.

~~~
falsedan
Probably can find a copy of [https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Call-Frisco-Herb-
Caen/dp/B002IAO...](https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Call-Frisco-Herb-
Caen/dp/B002IAO010) at your local library, worth a read?

~~~
vram22
Thanks, will check it out.

------
mrleiter
I went on holiday there for one week, an as a person from Western Europe, the
manifestation of wealth inequality was abhorrent sometimes. So many homeless
people that are not taken care of, generally dirty, expensive public transit
that not really good on top of it, obsession with tech and just generally a
bit too stiff.

Mission district was fun, though.

------
bsvalley
To answer your question without complaining too much about SF I’d say that
people are either new to SF (haven’t experienced the real deal described by
everyone here), or holding onto something that used to be a dream a few years
back, like a great position at a hot startup waiting for it to go public or a
1 bd apartment bought at $700k a few years back versus +$1 million today.
Really not about the city by the Bay anymore.. So, as you may guess the
attitude in 2018 here is extremely materialistic, which sounds weird when you
think about hippies right? :) either my home equity or my stocks.

People who want to become entrepreneurs these days would rather stop by to
create some connections and operate from a remote location. Last but not
least, tourists on a weekend trip to SF from all around the World. They want
to see the bridge and jump on a boat to Alcatraz

------
harel
I used to live there between '98 to '02, so my view is outdated. It's
interesting to read current outlooks. I'm not American. Back then I found the
city to be very European and very accepting. I was part of a fairly large
music scene there so although I was in tech, the crowd I hang with was more
music people. There was a LOT of tech back then and it was expensive. I
remember if you wanted to rent a flat, you'd be there early morning with 20
other people willing to outbid you for the rent. Lots of homeless people,
though I don't remember it being dirty. Great food. 4 seasons in a day but
generally pleasant weather. Some streets were wind tunnels (Van Ness in
particular). Best Burritos in the Galaxy (Mission/24th El Faralito hot damn).
Beautiful city. I left a piece of my heart there (but it grew back).

~~~
tomclive
Reading all of these replies is making me nostalgic for my youth in
California.

I spent a lot of time in Santa Cruz between '95 and '98 and used to head to SF
pretty regularly. As a young art student before any real involvement in tech,
I loved the vibe of the city. Great food and bars, welcoming people. Nice
climate.

At the time I did notice lots of homeless people but they didn't seem that
threatening. Out of all the places I've visited, it's one of the few places
where I would consider moving to, out of the UK.

~~~
harel
Someone once told me the reason for all the homelessness is a mental
institution closing during the Reagan era in the 80s and many patients were
just left out in the streets. I've never found them intimidating as well. They
were 'just there'.

------
bhu1st
Not in SF but I lived in East Bay for past two years. Since good tech meetups
were mostly happening around Mission I'd be in SF downtown once or twice a
week. One night I missed last BART and had to spend my rest of the night until
4am in a 711 near 2nd St which changed my view towards homeless people in SF.
I wonder why they're not welcomed by the job market. One guy said the city, SF
is beta testing ground for Silicon Valley. Overall I loved being part of the
city. But as others here have commented recently Oakland seems more happening.

------
indescions_2018
In NYC, certainly seems like there is a fresh influx of former SF residents.
Many around crypto / fintech as all large banks are here.

Refrain I often hear is that "street culture" is dead in SF. Tech workers just
stay in and order Seamless and tinker on their respective inventions all night
long. Although nowhere what it was at peak in 80s and 90s. NYC nightlife is
still popping ;)

I'd also be interested to hear about life in the Peninsula. Hills above Palo
Alto, San Mateo, even South SF. Family and friends seem to love it despite
chilly nights in the summer...

------
partycoder
It can be very attractive in the beginning, but in the long term:

\- Prices are high (rent, groceries, services, you name it).

\- Transport: public transport is meh, driving/parking sucks, non-recreational
cycling experience is mediocre and unsafe.

Unless you make enough money (after expenses) it is not worth it.

------
jes5199
I found that the tech “scene” barely existed, as such. People who work in tech
there are super siloed - they go to work, they work too much, they go home.
People don’t really go to meetups and user groups like they do in other
cities.

------
markfer
Background:

Born in Russia, grew up in NC, live in SF currently, moving to NYC next week.
Incredibly excited to leave SF, to say the least.

The good:

Innovation and energy everywhere. You can feel it in the air, especially since
every billboard in SoMa is a tech startup.

I've met some of the smartest people in my life here, and have been really
lucky to work on some exciting projects.

Neighborhoods are VERY divided and have their own feel, almost like separate
cities.

Decent amount of high quality restaurants.

Availability to high paying jobs

The bad:

HBO's Silicon Valley no longer becomes funny, it's just a documentary at this
point.

The homeless - they're everywhere and feel empowered to be aggressive on a
scale I've never seen. I live in Nob Hill, and have been in a few altercations
(though very much not the case when I was in the Marina).

Dating pool for a hetero male is meh at best. Most bars are filled with 75-90%
guys, with few exceptions in the Marina.

Tech is everywhere - at first this was a good thing, but now it's unbearable.

Everyone seems to be incredibly sensitive and emotionally charged.

Weather isn't as good as SoCal, and is pretty "eh" majority of the time.

Expensive af.

TLDR:

Amazing career opportunity for young/mid-20's for a few years. You'll meet
great people, work on exciting stuff, and raise your income level. Leave after
a few years.

Feel free to ask more

------
spectrum1234
The weather is the one thing I don't like. Its never hot here. Its rarely even
very warm. Winter is cool as expected, but 2/3 of summer is windy and foggy.

Everything else is probably exactly what you think it is.

------
jy1
Compared to where? I will give you a very different answer if you are
comparing to Austin vs Bangkok

------
baby
I’m interested to know about three other things: rent cost, safety and public
transport.

~~~
jes5199
rent is the worst in america

I know several people who have had laptops and cellphones stolen out of their
hands while they were at a cafe

the public transport is basically fine, crowded.

------
falsedan
I lived there 2014-2017 in the Inner Richmond + Outer Sunset. Rent was
~$1.5k/room, getting to Financial District took about 40 minutes on express
bus (2BX) or Muni metro (L).

A lot of internal US migrants find SF really eye-opening: the wider variety of
food & culture, the reasonable public transit, the influence of the strong
cultures (LGBT+, black, hispanic, asian, hippie) that have thrived in the
city. It really is very European for a NA city. SF has lots of great places to
see, in the city & around the Bay Area and North California. The Presidio &
Golden Gate Park are fantastic close natural escapes from urbanity.

Coming from Europe, I was shocked by the horrible transport (tiny Muni buses
with 5 steps to get in), the crime (petty and serious, like scavanging
recyclables from restaurant waste into the back of a pickup outside my window
at 2am or shootings on Market St), the weird flavour combinations in mid-scale
lunch places (I'm calling you out, Golden West), the extremely visible wealth
inequality + the "I'm alright, Jack" attitudes, the unimaginable mental health
crisis in the homeless population, dealing with private health insurance,
taxes and immigration, finding out co-workers on insane salaries were almost
destitute from paying off student loans, and the ridiculous housing situation,
in the city and in East Bay (people forced out of SF by gentrification and now
being forced out of Oakland, Alameda is the deepest white-flight suburb). Oh,
and paying more than $10/month for a phone plan.

Coming from Australia, I found the cost-of-living was reasonable (food & rent)
and the coffee was terrible, awful. I gave up on the Russian roulette of $5
barista/espresso burnt coffee + boiled milk, and stuck with filter/drip, which
was consistently not great and not expensive. There are a few places you can
reliably get a good cappuccino for $3-4…

A lot of the comments here focus on the anti-tech sentiment & monoculture of
tech: they're relaying their experience of not being a part of the community,
as being a overpaid 20-year-old in their first job out of college hasn't
prepared them for inviting neighbours over for coffee. The "other US cities
transport their homeless to SF" trope is indicative of this attitude: it's not
_my_ fault there's so many homeless here, _other_ people are making the
decisions that inconvenience my day-to-day, nothing I can do to change their
behaviour, so I don't need to do anything to improve it.

Weather was fine, summers were cool (cold at night) & foggy, spring and
'''fall''' warm and sunny. Earthquakes were fine, you have to have some
supplies and at least know about what to expect when the big one hits. Traffic
is normal I guess? Kind of bad when the 49ers/Warriors/Giants have a home game
and you want to go across the Bay Bridge.

I left becuase I got fed up with feeling like part of the problem & not having
any say in elections + not waiting to raise an American family (eventually). I
miss the amazing library system, 24-hour donut places, and the strangly serene
driving culture.

------
jonjonBoy
2 words. Soul sucking. Damn pricey. Crazy housing. Elitist liberals. Tech
mecca. 49er women. Lambos & hobos. Decent weather. Fin^2

~~~
insickness
What are 49er women?

~~~
nailer
[https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=49er](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=49er)

