
The German reference letter system - drsintoma
https://englishjobs.de/info/the-german-reference-letter-system/?src=hn
======
pgeorgi
I prefer the reference letter system over the personal references system
popular in the US because the letter decouples you from former employers.

They don't get calls every time you're in talks with a recruiter. The amount
of information that's passed along is standardized (even if it's a weird
standard, but see below) and better controlled.

It's possible to request interim reports, and when doing it semi-regularly
(every two years, say), it doesn't provide signal to current employers about
you intending to leave or not.

As for the peculiar language, that was quite the talk in the 90s when this
scheme was "uncovered" by the media. By now, people generally know what to
expect, while HR is typically aware if a letter is written "in code" or not
(and have no problem if it's not).

More than the "code", these letters can also refer to more concrete traits, so
the best course of action with the reference letter is often to write it
yourself, have your manager sign off on it and get the HR stamp of approval.
That way it states what _you_ think is important, not what the manager sees,
or the even more remote HR department.

(source: have German HR folks in the family who explained the reference letter
business to me, starting when the "code" fluff flared up in the media for the
first time. also did some clerical work in HR in the distant past)

~~~
nraynaud
In France you have a certificate of employment, "that guy was employed from
that date to that date, for this job, and he leaves with/without strings
attached" (non-competes, etc.)

No judgement of valor, no personal stuff, it confirms the dates, the name of
the company and the job title (be careful if you have been promoted internally
without your official title adjusted).

~~~
nraynaud
I might have given the wrong impression: at my current job in France, I'm
hired by a very corporate guy who spent years working at the State owned
energy company, and he required some telephone references and some tests at an
external head hunter. My guess is that corporate France still likes to use the
Downton Abbey method, but at previous startups it was more about resumé,
interviews and actual written code.

~~~
pyrale
Contacting former employers or talking about your former employees to a
prospective employer is illegal in France. Although it's hard to prove, when
they don't ask you directly to give contacts away.

~~~
tokenadult
_Contacting former employers or talking about your former employees to a
prospective employer is illegal in France._

The law is different here in the United States, of course, and in most
countries. I wonder how much of the slow economic growth and high unemployment
in France is connected to this information-denying and thus efficiency-
frustrating law?

~~~
Bartweiss
I'm skeptical that it makes a huge difference. After all, US employers are
pretty cautious about giving real information when contacted - the questions
may be legal, but you can still get sued over the answers. Most of the "real"
information in either setting flows informally.

It can't help, but it's hard to imagine that's anywhere near the top of
France's legislative issues.

------
jfaucett
This goes a lot deeper than the article seems to suggest. There was an quiz on
spiegel a while back that went in depth into the hidden meanings that only HR
experts can extract from these letters
([http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/jobundberuf/arbeitszeugnis-...](http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/jobundberuf/arbeitszeugnis-
quiz-knacken-sie-den-geheimcode-der-chefs-a-313249.html)). My wife who works
in HR managed to get them all correct, but I would have missed a lot of the
explicit meanings inside the numerous formulations.

In general these letters can state things such as:

1\. this person has no manners

2\. the person is an alcoholic

3\. the person is an arrogant diva, etc

Some more for those who can read German
([http://karrierebibel.de/arbeitszeugnis-formulierungen-
bewert...](http://karrierebibel.de/arbeitszeugnis-formulierungen-bewertung/))

As someone who has worked in both the US and German systems though, I actually
prefer the German one for the reasons pgeorgi mentions - its like having a
certificate that proves what you did and how well you did it after you
complete any job, then regardless of whatever happens to an employer (they
could go bankrupt, your boss could leave, etc) you still have that certificate
that proves you did what you say you did.

~~~
telotortium
As a non-German, I'm curious how these compare to this (humorous) list of
ambiguous recommendations:
[http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~beatrice/humor/ambiguous-
recommen...](http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~beatrice/humor/ambiguous-
recommendations.html). The German examples in the original article seem to be
merely euphemistic. Are the ones in your article ambiguous as well?

~~~
k__
yes

------
lordnacho
I got offered a job in Switzerland last year. It was the weirdest experience
ever.

What I suspect happened was I'd written "scrum certified" on my cv, and the
job had "scrum manager" in the title, so the poor people were bound by the law
of stupid to interview only people with this string in their cv.

They never asked me anything relevant. I code a bunch of languages, I can
manage people, yada yada, they didn't care. I don't know why on earth they
wanted to hire me after chatting briefly about my experience and doing some
silly think-out-of-the-box exercise. The HR lady then proceeded to tell me
about the great benefits of working for them (they pay your mortgage, not bad
eh?). One of the strangest things about the interview was that the HR person
was there at all, and leading it. She presented the manager, who politely said
hello, and then sat there as she asked me every inane and cliche question
you've ever heard.

So then it got to the documentation stage. They asked for this reference
letter, which I had, but I warned them my previous employer was... Me! So
obviously they shouldn't be surprised if it was a bit flattering and signed by
some partner of mine. Didn't matter. Just give us the letter!

And then they also wanted my graduation certificate. Now for years I've not
needed this document, I actually did not know what certificate from my school
looked like. At Oxford you have to sign up for a weird Latin ceremony, which I
didn't do because I'd started work the week after finishing uni. So this lady
insisted on getting a signed cert from the university office. I reminded her
is was over a decade ago, but no help. Luckily I was passing through anyway.

I also hinted quite strongly that it might not be the right kind of work for
me, and that I might want some sort of term limited contract. Didn't seem to
matter.

~~~
Hermel
What is in your opinion the right way to check whether you have actually
graduated at Oxford and what grades you had if not asking for the official
documents that contain this information?

~~~
lordnacho
The right way is to ask for the documents.

The right question is whether a guy who is over a decade out needs to do so,
as the degree is not evidence of competence when it's been that long.

Of course it's possible they went with getting paperwork rather than using the
interview as an opportunity to ask relevant questions. Interviewing is hard.

~~~
Hermel
> The right way is to ask for the documents.

That's what they did, so why are you complaining? (Note that these documents
are called Zeugnis in German, which translates to certificate, so maybe
something got lost in translation if you think your university certificates
are the wrong documents.)

I also disagree that an academic title earned 10 years ago is irrelevant.
Having graduated with good grades from a top school signals a lot, even if
it's been a while ago.

------
peteretep
If you're interested in hiring German developers on your team, leading with
the fact you're not looking for someone with Doctor Professor in their title,
you don't need apostilled copies of every certificate since kindergarten, and
you don't need codified reference letters for every job will expand your
market considerably.

I've placed several Germans in London development positions now, many of whom
were surprised when I told them how little I wanted other than for them to
answer some technical questions and to see if they got on with the team.

As the German market loses solid people to markets which aren't so incredibly
uptight, the German market will change.

~~~
discordianfish
Would be really interested in your opinion on the German market. Do you see a
trend of more and more solid tech people leaving the country? I'm a German
working for SV companies remotely for quite some time because of the situation
here (very conservative both internally as well as product-wise, low salaries
for non-management). I see most good people I worked with in Germany leaving
for opportunities in London, Amsterdam or SV and was wondering if it just
feels like that or if there is more to it.

My opinion on the topic is that those letters feel really odd and I stopped
asking for one a few jobs ago. That being said, at my current job (SF Startup)
I was asked for 'references' which was something new to me as well and it felt
similarly weird and outdated. I don't think either are very useful to any
party and IMO not worth the effort.

~~~
peteretep
"References" in the US / UK are proof you worked where you said you did, far
beyond qualities references. This guide (see linked PDF) for developers on job
titles written by a friend summarises pretty nicely:

[https://opensource.careers/developers/how-to-get-paid-
more/](https://opensource.careers/developers/how-to-get-paid-more/)

~~~
pgeorgi
Thank you! That PDF is pretty good and applies to Germany and its reference
letter system just the same. The advantage of the letter is that you know
(while tuning the resume) what they'll work with.

------
ptaipale
The article says that _" Germany, alongside with Switzerland, are the only
countries in Europe where the employee has the right to a reference letter in
which their performance is graded"_.

In addition at least in Finland, the employee has similar rights to a
reference letter with assessment stating duties and performance - and the
assessment may not be negative.

In Finland, the law states that "the reference letter must not imply other
meanings than what is literally said". That is of course a bit of an
impossible requirement. You can always read something implied if there is any
assessment, and not having an assessment can also be interpreted as implying
something (although it is generally a normal and neutral thing, there is a
"long form" of reference with assessment, and "short form" without).

In Sweden, there is also a right to reference letter (arbetsgivarintyg), but
it only needs to list duties, not give assessment.

Some years back in Finland, an employer actually went to jail because he
refused to sign a reference letter which he considered not true regarding work
duties.

Negative assessments are not allowed. The employment had lasted for a few
months, but the employee had been on strike for almost all the time, only
actually performing work duties for two weeks. The employer, en electrician,
agreed to write the reference letter for this two week period but not sign
that the employee would have been at work when he was actually on strike. But
this was required by law because the employment contract had been valid.

A court case ensued. The employer was sentenced to a couple of months prison
and was about to be sentenced again and again for as long as he would not sign
the letter; eventually an undisclosed agreement was reached as the identity of
the employee also made the news.

This feels rather strange in a country where you otherwise have to do some
very graphic violence to go to jail.

Personal references in the US style have become more and more usual here,
particularly in white-collar jobs.

------
_nalply
I live and work in Switzerland. I have some of these reference letters. About
twenty years ago there was a backlash against the codes, so I got some
reference letters with a declaration that they weren't «coded».

I never worked for big corporations. Once one of the founders did the HR
herself, but she was not a HR person and hated the codes herself. Another time
I was asked to write my reference letter myself.

My opinion is that Germany has painted itself into a corner. The requirements
are contradictory in itself. It's not possible to be truthful and generous at
the same time. However the employers are obligated, and between a rock and a
hard place. Either the employee sues them because the reference letter is not
benevolent enough or another employer sues them because the reference letter
was not truthful.

So HR invented the codes, but not all employees were easily duped. The saga
goes on.

------
codev
In the UK I'd always been told you had to give a reference, usually by phone,
and couldn't say anything negative but would just say "she worked here" if the
employee wasn't very good.

One day at a small company I worked for the phone rang and a fellow developer
answered. He said "the CEO's in a meeting right now, can I help?... Oh Andrew?
He was terrible, couldn't code his way out of a cardboard box and he was
really hard to get on with. I couldn't stand him personally... Ok, you're
welcome, bye". My mouth was on the floor, I'm pretty sure Andrew didn't get
that job.

~~~
tokenadult
In the United States, free speech principles as they apply to defamation law
basically allow anyone in your former company to say TRUTHFUL things about
your PUBLIC behavior in the workplace without fear of legal liability. But
because most employers are allergic to lawsuits, they generally advise their
employees to say NOTHING other than verifying dates of employment (to prevent
employees saying illegal things about their former colleagues like what race
or religion they are, for example). But if you actually phone up references,
many of them are quite talkative. Whether they follow the boss's advice not to
say much is on them. And a really wonderful way to use references (which I
did, as a community volunteer advised by a professional search firm for my
local school district many years when it was hiring a new superintendent) is
to call and ask for BACK references, that is "Who else do you know who could
comment on how well Mr. Smith could do this job he is applying for?" That is
perfectly legal, and very informative.

------
wink
Yes, this is a very weird peculiarity if working in Germany, for German
companies.

There's only one thing I might add. If you're working in tech and/or in
smaller companies, there's a good chance nobody will ever ask for this, even
less than for university degree papers, etc - but in many other fields or if
you're planning to join a big corporation, I'd still suggest to get one when
you leave.

------
tiatia
The reference letter system is bullshit.

Besides, most of them are written by the employee himself upon the request of
the employer (too busy, can you write it yourself and I sign it?). My advice
would be: If in doubt, fake it. The chance the the company will call your
previous employer are not zero but close to zero. Even if they call they would
just asked if you worked there and not if the letter of recommendation is
genuine.

Side Story: I remember when I applied to a (non IT) job closely related to
field of expertise at BASF. I upload a shitload of documents into their
nightmarish SAP application interface. A few days later I get an email: Thank
you for your application but please also upload the letters or reference. I
wrote back, that since I was living in the US the last years, I don't have
such letters since such letters are not common there but I would be happy to
provide references (from MAJOR names by the way).

They wrote back: If you don't have reference letters then we don't need you.
We deleted your application from the system (an application that too a
tremendous time to create thanks to the SAP application interface bullshit).

So, the bottom line:

1\. Letters of reference are bullshit in most cases. If you really need them,
FAKE them. No kidding! 2\. Don't take this German nonsense in any way as a
good example. A phone call is a better thing. In IT I assume you rarely need
it. A friend told me: "If I hire somebody I don't need his resume. I just want
to have a look at hit git account." 3\. If you ever hear on of the Bozos from
BASF or Evionik speaking in public of "not enough supply of skilled people"
then you know in which category to put them.

~~~
brianwawok
I don't thinking faking references is a good long term play.

So turns out you really get a great job, and get promoted to manager. Now HR
hears a rumor and checks your application, finds out you lied. Guess what
happens to your job?

~~~
tiatia
Depends. First, you may not have gotten the first job at all. Second, I doubt
any one would find out about a rigged letter. If it is totally fake (you never
worked there) then there is a bigger chance.

------
sebhack
In my experience, most employers are very reluctant to write reference letters
at all. A common practice is to write the reference letter yourself when you
leave the job and just get a signature for it by your ex-boss.

------
furyg3
When I was younger I worked in retail in California, and at two companies was
told that it's effectively the same for referrals. If someone calls you for a
reference of someone who worked under you, the reference should never be
negative, or you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit.

Everybody knew this. "He worked here" as a response to all questions means DO
NOT HIRE. People who were caught stealing would be told "quit or we call the
police", but you never, ever told anyone calling for a referral about this,
even if charges were eventually pressed (which rarely happened). Yes, people
who were caught stealing were stupid enough to list their victims as
references.

This all made doubly pointless by the fact that somewhere around 99% of people
working in retail are stealing things.

------
ig1
At my company (London based startup) we always call references to get a verbal
reference and ask specific questions (what were their main weaknesses, what's
the best way to manage them to get the best out of them, etc.) rather than
asking for a generic reference.

For more senior hires we get backdoor references through our own network (with
the candidates permission) to ensure the candidate isn't just giving us their
friends, etc.

------
akkartik
One of the cool things about the biography of John Boyd
([http://www.amazon.com/Boyd-Fighter-Pilot-Who-
Changed/dp/0316...](http://www.amazon.com/Boyd-Fighter-Pilot-Who-
Changed/dp/0316796883)) was the quoting from and parsing of his performance
reviews in the US Air Force.

------
cm2187
In my trade, people usually only resign after they have another job offer (as
in contract in their hands). I guess if I was in Germany it would circumvent
this reference system at least for the current employer?

~~~
pgeorgi
Resigning only with a new job secured is also common in Germany. That's what
interim reports are for (that employees have just the same right to as for the
"real" reference letters), although they may tip off the current employer.

------
mioelnir
If you look beyond the grading via weird reference letter language, these
letters contain usually one important thing: what you actually did. Not what
your job description said, but your actual daily doings and responsibilities.

That is the part I like about them, especially if you answer a job ad that
requests prior experience with FOO.

And while it is true that you can sometimes get your grade bumped up as part
of some deal (and everybody knows it); I have never heard of a company that
signs off on this list containing stuff you did in fact not do.

------
bitwize
This reminds me of reporting in the UK. UK libel law is notoriously loose and
favors the plaintiff overwhelmingly, so you can get yourself in heaps of
trouble by saying anything negative about anyone, true or not. So journalists
use code-phrases; for example "a man about town" may mean a philanderer, "a
fulsome spirit" may mean an alcoholic, "an engaging storyteller" may mean a
pathological liar, etc.

------
erikb
Haven't read all the comments, but the ones I read didn't state it so here
comes a tip for people who don't know:

If you want an evaluation letter after finishing a job present your manager
with one you prepared, that he only needs to sign and he will be happy with
it, more often than not, because it means less work for him. He also doesn't
know the terms and googles it just like you.

------
SFJulie
Why do companies have the right to demand references, and there is no way for
an employee to require references or data from a company? It is totally
unfair.

Oh! And with new European law on business secrecy, you can be sued if you put
a comment on a website rating companies like they do on indeed.

I love European Community that makes it always better for the business and
worse for the workers.

------
golergka
> This might sound like an advantageous situation for the employees

Strange logic. To me, this idiotic requirement seems very damaging: the only
employees who would benefit from it are poor performers.

------
known
What is the point of Interview when your decision is based on
Reference/Recommendation letter?

------
sklivvz1971
This is just nasty, because it's asymmetrical. It enables bad employers to dis
disgruntled employees who might be right in their disappointment.

~~~
pluma
Not really. The letters have to be truthful, not just "positive". You can sue
former employers who are being dishonest despite using "positive" language.

~~~
sklivvz1971
Sure, but you can't equally review your employers, so whatever they say will
sound more authoritative than it should.

With this system, "not so good review" means "bad employee" and "good review"
means "good employee".

If it was possible to equally comment on the employer, a "not so good review"
from an unreliable employer would be less important than a "not so good
review" from a reliable employer.

