
Introducing Surface Book 2 - AlexeyBrin
https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2017/10/17/introducing-surface-book-2-the-most-powerful-surface-book-ever/
======
skywhopper
This is a good example of how Microsoft often does marketing poorly. The text
reads like a script for an in-person product launch. On the page it doesn't
even make sense "When you think about Microsoft and you hear our mission – to
empower every person and every organization on the planet to achieve more –
it’s powerful." What?

And then after all of that, you click through to the store and there's no
pricing information whatsoever and no pre-order date on the store page (there
is a date buried in all the text in the announcement), just an unfriendly "Not
available" broken button... no price, no date, and I don't even remember what
was supposed to be interesting about the thing. Something about having more
pixels than a Mac. Whatever interest I had in the product evaporated a long
time ago, but the lack of concrete info on price makes me forget about it
entirely.

Edited to add: Oh cool, I just went back to the page and noticed the
"Microsoft Band", a product that was officially discontinued over a year ago,
is prominently featured in the navigation bar across the top of the page. Good
work, team!

~~~
markcmyers
As a former advertising executive, I can tell you what the problem is here.
The writer and his boss who approved the copy aren't addressing the customer,
they're addressing the boss's boss. In a dysfunctional organization like
Microsoft, communicating up rather than out is how you get promoted. It's a
rare Microsoft employee who moves up the ladder by thinking about the
customer.

~~~
landr0id
Well in fairness, the link points to the Windows blog. The actual marketing
page should probably be the link: [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/devices/surface-book...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/devices/surface-book-2/overview)

~~~
juliand
This should be the linked page. A lot more of information than the blog post.

~~~
nailer
Perhaps if we summon dang it will be changed?

------
staticelf
So many negative comments just because it's Microsoft. If you don't like the
OS, obviously this machine is not for you.

Personally I think it looks nice, but I have a Surface Pro 2 that works just
perfectly fine and I love it. The hardware on it is still good and I don't see
any reason to upgrade.

~~~
AlphaWeaver
I think that in itself speaks to the quality of the Surface device line... I
myself have the first Surface Book, and I will likely upgrade to the 2 at some
point, but not because my current device doesn't serve me well... I'm glad
this thing is still working like new and I don't have huge urges to upgrade
because I suddenly feel inferior, like some other tech companies try to
pull...

EDIT: Don't work for MS, just a happy Surface owner.

~~~
staticelf
Yes, the machines they produce is very high quality and lasts a very long
time. Longer than any other laptop I have used. Even if I have used it for
quite some time it still feel fresh and performant.

~~~
ant512
Last I heard MS were having reliability problems with the Surface:

"The breakage rate for Microsoft Corp’s Surface devices is significantly worse
than for other manufacturers’ laptops and tablets, Consumer Reports said,
adding that it was removing its “recommended” designation for Surface
products."

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-
surface/microso...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-
surface/microsoft-surface-devices-fail-on-reliability-consumer-reports-
idUSKBN1AQ1EP)

~~~
staticelf
I don't know about the pure statistics, but my experience and other people I
know (which actually still run the Surface Pro 1) have had a great experience.

In the past, there was a minor issue that the surface tablet didn't understand
that you removed the keyboard. But that seems to be fixed now and it didn't
happen that often anyway.

~~~
ako
Surface pro experience where I work is not good. I had my surface for a few
months, after every holiday it had problems starting. After my summer holiday,
where it was powered off for 3 week, I could not get it to power on anymore.
Had to return it to Microsoft, got a replacement. Replaced that with a
thinkpad t470s. Much better experience so far, and having 24gb also helps if
you run a number of docker images.

------
neals
Nice to see Microsoft bringing new consumer hardware to market. In the
meantime, all Surface Pro 4 i7 devices become unusable due to graphic issues.

The brilliant concepts by Microsoft are so amateuristically executed. I
learned my lesson and am staying away.

[https://answers.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/forum/surfpro4-s...](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/forum/surfpro4-surfdrivers/surface-pro-4-screen-flickering-
shacking/570165cb-50a0-4d71-bcb1-310ddd869d1d)

~~~
0xffff2
Certainly not all of them... I have used my SP4 as my only PC for several
months at a time, doing everything from coding and CAD at work to gaming and
Netflix at home and I've experienced no issues.

~~~
neals
Recently?

------
albertgoeswoof
Whenever I fly on business with my macbook/lenovo I am super jealous of
surface users, because they can use their machine during take off, as it's
classified as a tablet when folded over.

Seems minor but it's annoying when you're stuck looking at some crappy tv show
or movie for an hour on each flight.

~~~
usaphp
But can you do any real work in a folded mode, unless you are a graphic
designer or something.

~~~
dawnerd
Can watch movies/tv, browse the web (especially on the new planes with gate to
gate wifi).

------
TYPE_FASTER
Having recently used a XPS 13, original Surface Book, Surface laptop, Surface
Pro, and Lenovo T560, the Surface laptop is the clear winner for me.
Definitely worth a look if you're looking for good Windows hardware, and don't
need the discrete graphics capability of the Surface Book.

~~~
jozzz
Is this for software development (assuming yes since we're on HN)?

I'm currently in the process of making this choice. Looking at Lenovo
T470p/Dell XPS 13/15\. If I'm doing linux development is it worth even
thinking about the surface laptop?

~~~
elbrian
I run an XPS 13 with Ubuntu 16.04 and do software development for a living (so
I use the laptop for 10+ hours a day).

Let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll be happy to answer...
but long story-short, this is the best laptop I've ever touched or owned.

~~~
jozzz
Thanks. I put marginally more info here
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15493070](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15493070)

But essentially, if I'm mainly interested in performance and the screen it
sounds like an XPS might be a better choice than a thinkpad? Do you have a 4k
screen?

------
Jaqua
Looks like a proper MacBook Pro replacement HW wise, but the OS is not one I
would use for work.. =/ So attached to OSX for the past 6 years and cannot see
me using a windows OS for work , but at home only for gaming. The new MacBook
Pro has many flaws. Not sure how this compares in real use for it?

~~~
ksec
Gaming, the world has changed and this generation of Apple users has way more
Gamers then what they had before.

Why do they continue to ignore Gamers on the Mac Platform.

~~~
baldfat
One HUGE Issue Hardware. While the build quality is awesome the muscle power
of most Macs graphically is just abysmal. Also the lack of a native Right
Click!

There are plenty of Mac OS games and people don't play them.

~~~
robotresearcher
Macs have supported right click out of the box for many years.

~~~
baldfat
With the Mac Mouse having a right click? No you buy an official apple mouse
you have single click options only.

Also the laptops are also single click.

~~~
mmcconnell1618
This is incorrect. Both Apple laptops and mice support right-click out of the
box. You can configure it from the System Settings -> Mouse / Trackpad.

~~~
baldfat
> right-click out of the box. You can configure it from the System Settings ->
> Mouse / Trackpad

That's not out of the box :) But an Apple Mouse can not have right click added
it physically has one button but it does it in software and it doesn't work or
it button bounces whenever I have tried.

95% of all Mac I have ever seen or used have Official Mice.

~~~
robotresearcher
It is enabled by default.

------
trothamel
A bit of headline fail there:

"Introducing Surface Book 2, the most powerful Surface Book ever"

Out of the two of them so far?

~~~
dandare
Thank you Apple for introducing this meaningless phrase to humanity's
discourse.

~~~
rob74
They talk the Apple talk, but can they walk the Apple walk? ;)

------
ChuckMcM
Talking about the _hardware_ this is a pretty interesting offering. The got
the new 8th gen i7 into the display half (which they failed to do for the new
Surface Pro which seems like an odd omission).

Seems like a solid follow up to the original Surface Book (which I have). In
my experience my Surface book is most usable in 'studio mode' (their name for
folded back over the keyboard with the display up) and an external keyboard.
That gives the maximum graphics power and its possibly to use the stylus to
draw on it easily.

As a laptop the weight balance is off enough that there are a lot of
orientations that just don't work (the system falls back on the display.

As a development machine with the dock to add extra displays I've found it
both responsive and powerful enough. On the road my 12" Surface Book is a bit
too little screen area and so I use my 15" macbook pro 2015 for that. The 15"
version of the surface book 2 would be a win there but at 4.2lbs my shoulder
will complain. (I briefly had the 4+ pound Sony VAIO and it was painful enough
that I just never took it on trips as powerful as it was.)

At the end of the day I think Microsoft is doing a good job of exploring the
mobile development workstation space in a way that is currently out pacing
Apple. Microsoft is still behind (as far as I am concerned) in software but
with things like WSL they are plugging the gaps which made them unusable for
my purposes.

~~~
michaeljchou
> They got the new 8th gen i7 into the display half (which they failed to do
> for the new Surface Pro which seems like an odd omission).

8th gen intel processors were not out when the new Surface Pro released. And
they had to release it because it was long overdue since SP4.

> On the road my 12" Surface Book is a bit too little screen area and so I use
> my 15" macbook pro 2015 for that. The 15" version of the surface book 2
> would be a win there but at 4.2lbs my shoulder will complain. (I briefly had
> the 4+ pound Sony VAIO and it was painful enough that I just never took it
> on trips as powerful as it was.)

15"MBP: 4.49lb(2015), 4.02lb(2016&2017)

~~~
ChuckMcM
Thank you!

First, I did _not_ think the MBP was that heavy. But you are absolutely
correct. I put it on my scale and it comes in a bit over 4.5 lbs. (I'm
attributing the extra weight to the stickers.) So that does make the SB2
faster, better screen, and longer battery life. Could be an expensive
realization :-).

I was recalling the article in ars where they were talking about the LTE
version [1], which is missing the i7. I suspect I'm the only one who wants a
laptop with a decent LTE radio that can take advantage of the increased area
to offer something which can pull in even weak LTE signals and work at
something resembling full speed. I guess we have to wait for Intel to do some
sort of Centrino type deal with an LTE modem manufacturer before we see
something like that.

[1] [https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/09/microsoft-seems-
to-h...](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/09/microsoft-seems-to-have-
leaked-the-surface-pro-lte-specs-itself/)

------
bhouston
Nvidia 1060 and 1050? Nice. I assume it is 4GB and 6GB respectively?

This really makes it incredibly powerful. I run with dual 4k monitors off of a
Dell XPS with an Nvidia 1050 with 4GB. Feels like a desktop.

(Does this also support 32GB of RAM? That is required for development these
days with multiple containers running locally. My Dell XPS 15" supports 32GB
of RAM.)

~~~
SomeHacker44
What I want to know is the TDP limits of each of these. I saw that the 13" had
a (39?) small power supply, and the 15" had a 95 (?) W power supply. My
Alienware 13R3 has a 180W power supply, of which if I am not mistaken fully
half goes to that 1060, and 45W goes to the i7-6xxx quad-core CPU.

My guess is that this laptop will have heavy thermal restrictions on the
1060's performance, not to mention a lack of power to actually run it at it's
max TDP.

I wonder if they're using nVidia's new technology which
underclocks/underpowers the GPUs at (their claim of) only modest cost in
performance.

~~~
masklinn
FWIW the SB2 runs a 15W CPU (possibly upTDP'd to 20W?), I can't imagine they
run the GPUs much higher than 30W.

------
michaelmior
> You won’t believe how much the colors and 3D images will pop in PowerPoint
> on these machines.

That sounds like a horrible way to convince me I want this.

~~~
n0clu
What? Thinking about default theme PowerPoint presentations doesn't get you
salivating at the screen?

------
olympus
Looking at the specs, (linked in another comment), it appears that the USB-C
port doesn't support Thunderbolt 3. Seriously, Microsoft, you can't charge
this much for a laptop without TB3. I know that TB started as an Apple
standard, but you're not killing this port like you did with Firewire. Your
case of NIMBY has cost you my sale. I'll wait and get the next premium
Lenovo/HP/ASUS/etc Ultrabook with 8th gen i7 AND TB3.

~~~
maaaats
I have a MacBook Pro and have never used thunderbolt. Why is it a big deal /
what do you use it for?

~~~
petemill
I use a single TB3 port to connect two 4K displays, 100W power and all USB
devices all through a single cable

~~~
izacus
And Surface Book 2 will do that just fine. (You're almost certainly not using
Thunderbolt but plethora if USB-C alternate modes)

~~~
jskopek
A USB-C port will just barely power a 4K display at 60hz on its own. There's
no way to get two 4k displays, USB, and power delivery without the bandwidth
of Thunderbolt 3

------
pier25
I bought a SB last year and returned it after a couple of days since it was
full of problems with the GPU and pen[1].

The machine was beautiful and both the keyboard and trackpad felt amazing, but
even if my unit was defective the pen and tablet experience were poor compared
to something like an iPad Pro.

Also the display was really sharp in terms of resolution but suffered from an
insane amount of ghosting while scrolling[2].

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XLVgpD-
Dtc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XLVgpD-Dtc)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcOwjj2UWtw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcOwjj2UWtw)

~~~
junkcollector
When I got my Surface Pro way back when, I had some similar issues. I had to
update the drivers for the screen and pen to the official Wacom release
instead of the Microsoft release and afterwards it ran amazingly well. It was
so nice that I've been eyeing one of those absurdly expensive drafting table
style Wacom setups for my desktop ever since even thought I could never
justify the price. I've considered upgrading the Surface Pro as well for a
larger screen and lighter body, but the Pro 2 does all my normal tasks (mostly
matlab and putty) really well and the fact that the pen is now sold separate
deeply offends me.

~~~
JBiserkov
>I've been eyeing one of those absurdly expensive drafting table style Wacom
setups for my desktop ever since even thought I could never justify the price.

Have you looked at the Surface Studio? I realize it's not super powerful for a
desktop, but the price is simply too good compared to the Wacom tables.

~~~
pier25
But is the stylus digitiser better in the Surface Studio?

------
rayiner
The pricing is brutal.[1] About $100-$300 more than the 15" Macbook Pro with
the same amount of storage. The base model is particularly shameful, with only
8GB of RAM. The base MBP is 16GB for $100 less. You can't configure the RAM
amount, so $2,900 is the cheapest 15" model with 16GB.

[1] Or perhaps it's more that the configuration options are really inflexible,
with every configuration having the highest-end CPU and GPU.

~~~
ksec
Basically you are paying for a better CPU, you get the option of Intel's 8th
Gen CPU..... and Nvidia GPU, arguably better then one offered by Apple.

I just wish Apple will make their own Metal GPU for Mac. At least then I know
the GPU will be best at something Apple designed to do.

~~~
zimpenfish
> I just wish Apple will make their own Metal GPU for Mac.

[https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/23/apple-power-vr-
imaginati...](https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/23/apple-power-vr-imagination-
technologies-sold/)

"The A11 Bionic chip inside Apple's new iPhone 8 series and upcoming iPhone X
is the company's first-ever self-designed GPU."

I should imagine it's only a matter of time.

~~~
kbumsik
Please no. It will break compatibility with Linux and Windows. Then the MBP
will be a trash for me.

~~~
zimpenfish
Why would it? Just because it's Metal-optimised doesn't mean it'll magically
stop running OpenGL/whatever else. I'm pretty sure Unity, GameMaker, SDL et al
will add a Metal-optimised backend pretty quickly too.

------
PascLeRasc
I can't stand when companies say the latest version of a product is "the most
powerful one ever". Why would that ever not be the case?

~~~
petecox
Power is something you want to use less of when constrained by battery life,
surely!:)

~~~
PascLeRasc
Efficient would be a better word to use then.

------
avcdsuia
Now I want a 3:2 MacBook Pro 15'', the display ratio that Mac notebook used to
have(PowerBook G4). 3:2 is much more comfortable working with, enough vertical
space for reading code and no sacrifice for horizontal space.

~~~
leadingthenet
I’d love this. 16:9(10) is probably the worst aspect ratio ever to be made
standard on laptops. How the hell did people think it was a good idea?

~~~
masklinn
> 16:9(10)

16:9 can't be equated to and is _significantly_ worse than 16:10, which is
worse than 3:2, which is worse than 4:3 (which is coming back on tablets).
There were even 5:4 displays at one point (early days of desktop LCD, I still
have my 1280x1024 19" ViewSonic VP191b).

Assuming 15" diagonals on all of them:

* a 16:9 display is 96 sq in and 7.4" high

* a 16:10 display is 101 sq in and 7.9" high

* a 3:2 display is 104 sq in and 8.3" high

* a 4:3 display is 108 sq in and 9" high

* a 5:4 display is 110 sq in and 9.4" high

As you can see, 16:10 -> 16:9 is actually the largest loss in surface area and
second-largest loss of height (largest being 4:3 -> 3:2).

However if you're watching a movie, the 16:9 has 100% coverage for 16:9 and
75% coverage for Cinemascope, every other format gets lower in both relative
_and absolute_ coverage, down to 70% (77 sq in) and 53% (58 sq in) for a 5:4.

> How the hell did people think it was a good idea?

Black bars on movies, better view angles in FPS, and cheaper.

------
nailer
I've owned and used a SB1 for nearly 2 years. Quick summary:

Pros:

\- Longest battery life I've ever had in a laptop - bottom of the device is
entirely battery (or maybe a GPU if you picked that one) and that's comparing
it to a Haswell MBA.

\- Excellent (huge) trackpad

\- Studio mode is great for life drawing classes

\- Face unlock just works on desktop mode

\- Windows 10 is a nice modern OS (visually) and WSL /Powershell (if you want
to learn it) are excellent.

\- Surface Dock cable is awesome - a single magnetic charger / display /
docking cable.

Cons:

\- As a tablet it's too heavy.

\- As a tablet face unlock doesn't work on tablet-type angles

\- Silly Windows 10 apps. Like Instagram, which has a notification entitled
'Instagram', the contents of which are 'Instagram'.

\- No international support - take the device overseas and need help and
you're dealing with 'Old Bad Ballmer' Microsoft, who will send you back and
forth between eg US and UK for years without fixing your hardware.

I'd buy an SB again, but I'd also look at the Surface Laptop (and maybe
Surface Pro if someone I trust says you can type on that keyboard).

------
desireco42
This is the most beautiful laptop/computer I've seen in a long time, it hits
all the right buttons for me:

it has great battery life, it comes in 15" and you can detach for tablet mode
it has a pen (so I don't have to have ipad pro + laptop) touchscreen is just
better, I've seen people use it, and it is better then my macbook air it has
nvidia 1060 so I can play games

I need to figure out how to work on this, as it has Windows and I am game. I
need some really good terminal and graphical vim and I will be golden.

~~~
michaeljchou
Tips for terminal on Windows 10: [https://goreliu.github.io/wsl-
terminal/](https://goreliu.github.io/wsl-terminal/)

------
andr
Any experiences with dual booting in to Linux on the Surface Book? I can
imagine some things, like detaching not working optimally, but does it work at
all?

~~~
sleibrock
I've used Linux on a Surface 3 so I imagine it'll be a similar story for the
Book: many things won't play as nice as they would under Windows (sleeping
when closing it, WiFi), things like the touch screen might not play ball, and
the graphics drivers might not work.

Linux 4.9 aimed to make the Surface usable, but I haven't found a distro that
played with the Wifi drivers nicely (would work for a few minutes, then would
shut off, become unresponsive, and required a hard reboot to get working
again). There is a Fedora Surface image that many suggest works really well on
Surfaces, but I couldn't get it to boot.

Now I just prefer using a Virtualbox image to do all my Linux stuff. It's
easier to set up and requires far less rebooting.

------
kanishkdudeja
The i5 variant comes with just 8 GB RAM. Would have considered if they had
given an option for 16 GB RAM.

Being a developer, 8 GB seems tight these days! 15-inch 16 GB variant comes
with i7 but the price is a little too steep (starts from 2500 USD)

~~~
TheCoreh
To be fair, if you're developer, you'll probably also want an i7 (since a lot
of compilation tasks are highly parallel and the extra cores will help a lot)

~~~
kanishkdudeja
That's right. But the i7 15-inch line starts from 2500 USD. I think lots of
developers won't be able to afford at that price point.

~~~
bpicolo
i7 13.5" starts at 1,999. Still pretty crazy that prices are turning the
opposite direction lately.

~~~
shurcooL
It’s unfortunately the expected thing, as powerful general purpose computers
become a specialized niche tool for developers, since regular consumers are
being satisfied with phones and tables and inexpensive laptops. The market is
no longer growing, it’s shrinking.

------
pmontra
A 15" non Apple laptop without numberpad, plus a 3:2 display: joy! I don't
need a new laptop now but I hope other manufacturers will follow.

No number pad means that the touchpad in centered with the screen and the
keyboard so I wouldn't have to slide the laptop to the right to have the
important keys and the touchpad in front of me.

3:2 * 5.33 = 16:10.66, so extra vertical space.

------
jrs95
This is just an insane device to me. Aspects of it are performance oriented,
but the same or better performance can be had for 1/3-1/2 the cost in other
laptops. Personally I'd rather just have an iPad that's good at being a tablet
and a laptop that's good at being a mobile workstation. And that costs about
the same amount of money.

------
pbnjay
Why do no pics show the USB-A side of the system clearly? It's like they only
want to talk about USB-C.

Also I can't tell if it does USB-C Power Delivery or not? Or would I still
need a separate charger for this? Would be really nice to only carry one
charger for phone and laptop...

~~~
Jaqua
What phone charges with USB-C?

From here: [https://www.windowscentral.com/surface-book-2-tech-
specs](https://www.windowscentral.com/surface-book-2-tech-specs) "Microsoft is
still using its proprietary Surface Connect for power and the optional Surface
Dock."

aaah.. at the end: "Users can also recharge the Surface Book 2 with a USB
Type-C charger as long as it is powerful enough. Devices can be charged from
the Surface Book 2, such as a phone using USB Type-C."

~~~
dingo_bat
> What phone charges with USB-C?

Almost every new phone.

~~~
robotresearcher
Except you-know-who. Arrrrrgh!

------
jarym
Mac user since 2002 and using windows was always a less-than-satisfying
experience. Now if the Surface had 32Gb of RAM then I'd be all in but it seems
like Microsoft are being restricted by Intel's incompetence as much as Apple
are on this front.

------
darklajid
Looks not too bad, but I'm kinda interested in a Ryzen based laptop. And for
that .. there's basically nothing yet (a Lenovo that is based on ~outdated~
tech just came out, a HP is announced and seems limited in its RAM
options/potentially limited to single-channel and crippling the APU and a
monster of a gaming laptop with desktop CPUs that is basically not usable if
you ever want to carry it or use it without a power supply).

I like the design, but the price is far too high - for me - and I'm neither a
fan of Intel nor NVidia.

~~~
bpicolo
Ryzen chips for laptops don't exist yet, though they're working on it.
[https://liliputing.com/2017/10/amd-ryzen-chips-laptops-
comin...](https://liliputing.com/2017/10/amd-ryzen-chips-laptops-coming-soon-
hp-spills-beans.html)

Looks like HP will have a ryzen-based laptop, though there's no telling how
the chip will compare to the desktop variant

~~~
darklajid
See the other thread - I already linked to the HP one (that's the one that
might have the single-channel flaw/fault).

Lenovo seems to have an offer available today - for about a month now. With ..
other issues.

------
Zigurd
How many times have you read "...the power of a desktop, the versatility of a
tablet, and the freedom of a light and thin laptop..." and found the reality
is that it isn't as good as the best of breed of any of these, and more
expensive. It may be a really nice laptop. Isn't that enough? And that's even
before getting into how difficult it is to wash all the too-small touch
targets and other gotchas out of a mouse-first UI.

------
kin
Is this really how they're introducing this product? Through a blog post?

~~~
bllguo
Don't think so, that's just what OP chose to link. Their store page has more
detail: [https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-
book...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-
book-2/overview)

------
reynoldsbd
Finally, USB-C in a Surface product!

~~~
ocdtrekkie
I'm actually really glad they have up until now left USB-C out. We're at a
point in USB-C's life I'd consider it an anti-feature, and the Surface Book
2's no exception: This particular USB-C port is really only useful for adding
a second display. It's more or less fine as an extra port, but anywhere it
takes away a Type A port, or even the Mini-DP it replaced is a little sad.

Marco Arment posted this a couple days ago, and it sums up... some of... the
issues with USB-C: [https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-
usb-c](https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c)

~~~
deno
For a mobile device one big plus of USB-C is USB-PD and the ecosystem of fast
chargers and power banks it brings/will-bring. You can also use one charger
for both your phone and laptop, which is useful even if you can’t charge both
at the same time.

Ignore everything else and it’s a nice upgrade just for this.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
My Surface Pro charger (the same one that comes with the Surface Book IIRC)
has a USB port for charging phones as well, and unlike a USB-C charger,
charges both at the same time.

While I lament non-standard implementations, much like Apple's old MagSafe
adapter and the Surface connector, sometimes the non-standard version is
vastly superior.

~~~
deno
That still leaves out issue of powerbanks, more devices and probably fast-
charging.

Still a USB charging port on a regular charges seems mighty convenient and I’m
certainly jealous!

------
intended
Wait what, they just announced the successor to the SB without any fanfare?

Did I miss something about today? I didn't even know they were doing a SB
refresh.

What?

------
Divver
Having worked at Microsoft and now at Apple (and a startup before these two),
in my opinion

The overall distribution of proficiencies and talent across engineering teams
(both hardware and software teams) in my opinion were about equal across the
three.

(One major difference though is finding engineers who don’t mind doing nitty
gritty dirty work like Dev ops and/or setting up test automation stuff is
harder in big companies because somehow many of the senior engineers at big
companies feel that if the setup isn’t given to them by someone else, it’s not
their job to set it up for their team, so they just use what’s
available/existing even if it’s insufficent for good quality.

(Not trying to bash on any oldies on my existing or previous teams of course
there were few exceptions)

At startups though engineers don’t have this “that’s below me” Attitude and
will put in the time to set up automation if it makes the team more agile.

In fact setting up developer automation was one of the first things I set up
for my team before getting to my feature development tasks and team has
acknowledged it made huge difference in the overall team agility and reduction
in regressions found by the QA folks every time code was checked in )

Anyway this made me realize the importance of good marketing which Microsoft
lacked a lot imo and also engineering leadership product vision

Since generally I’ve noticed you’ll get about the same distribution of
engineering talent

And what really makes the difference are a good marketing team and good
engineering management team

who believes in the importance of code quality (ensuring things like
checkstyle and findbugs are enabled as required to pass for check in and
having required code review approvals for check in) and automation in tests
(ensuring some set of unit, integration, and functional tests are run to be
passed before check in), and automation in deployment.

------
wallabie
Interesting. Does anyone here actually use the dial, or know someone that
does? Otherwise, it doesn't look like a compelling upgrade to my Surface Book
(1) though. Even though I paid an arm a leg for it, I've grown to love it over
time. Glad they are providing both 13" and 15" options though.

~~~
kanishkdudeja
Are you comfortable with the touchpad of your Surface Book 1?

~~~
AlphaWeaver
Not the OP, but I have a SB1 and the touchpad has had no problems. Works very
well, and is natural for me to use.

------
Fwirt
After reading through the product announcement I had to chuckle a bit... If
you'll pardon the shameless plug, I just purchased a used Lenovo X230 Tablet
(ThinkPad) a couple weeks ago and my bet is that for the average HN reader use
case it scratches all the same itches as the Surface Book. Granted it's
bulkier and slower, but it's about $2300 cheaper.

On the other hand it's easily repaired and upgraded, and has an easily swapped
battery, so you can bring a couple spares along on a trip. The Surface Book
obviously targets the "creative" market, but as long as you spend most of your
time in a terminal, an editor, or a web browser, and have an occasional need
for a pen and touch screen, then the old Lenovo ThinkPad tablets are awesome.

~~~
kbutler
1366x768 itches pretty badly

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Especially in a 12" screen, I've been using an X240 for a couple of days and
it feels old.

------
prions
Hopefully they improved the wobbly hinge/upper half and the sharp scratchy
corners.

------
yoz-y
What is the main reason behind the 17 hour battery life, mainly in comparison
to a MacBook Pro? Does this come mainly from the battery size, power
management in the OS or components?

~~~
skywhopper
Given that the only battery life number they quote is for video playback (with
no specs about the video format, bitrate, resolution, full-screen state, etc),
I suspect that number just happens to be extra high when you choose the
optimal video in the optimal format and play it full screen (so the OS can
stop spending cycles on UI rendering). Note that Apple specifies 10 hours of
"iTunes Movie playback" for the 15-inch Macbook Pro. It's probably possible to
improve on that with some other format. Apple also gives a quote for "wireless
web" usage (the same 10 hours). The 15-inch Surface Book 2 is also
significantly thicker and about 5% heavier than a 15-inch Macbook Pro. So I'm
sure more battery plays a role as well.

~~~
cube2222
They advertised 13.5 video playback for the sp2017 and I'm getting 7-10 real
world usage. But people have said to actually use their sb's for 13 hours, so
it'll probably be 11-16 hours of real world usage.

------
wslh
Microsoft Windows and their software is not ready for these new devices, that
is the sad part of the story. One clear example is Microsoft Office not
working in different DPI displays. For example if you have a ~4k display in
your notebook and you plug two 1080p monitors the fonts will be blurred. And
we are talking about the Microsoft core product.

------
biktor_gj
I can't even count the times they say Macbook Pro... Can't they just let the
product shine by itself instead of trying to make the competition look bad? Do
they really need to get that low? Don't get me wrong, I dislike 99% of apple
products, but it makes the entire ad just awful...

------
avenoir
How's the track pad on these things? The track pad on the latest XPS is
atrocious and at times unusable.

~~~
bhauer
I find the trackpad on the original Surface Book to be good. As good as any
MacBook I've used, but I'm not a Mac user, so I don't think I can speak to the
more subtle differences.

Most reviews of the original Surface Book concur that it's "nearly" as good as
the MacBook's trackpads. Also remember that the display is a touch screen.

~~~
lambda_lover
While I do love the Mac trackpad, the important part is the amazing gestures
built into OS X- things like workspace switching and window management are far
easier in OS X as a result. But maybe that makes a more dramatic difference
for me because I've always disliked alt+tab.

------
pierrebeaucamp
Having the 'original' Surface Book, I would love to just upgrade my base
(keyboard and ports) and keep my current screen (CPU, RAM, Antennas).

I don't see why they can't sell screens and bases separately. This would be a
huge plus if I could upgrade different parts of my laptop.

------
futhey
Excited to see a VR-ready notebook that doesn't look like garbage (higher-end
configuration).

Kind of overpriced, but, as a non-gamer, it's been painful to "downgrade" to
any of the clunky boxes that pass for gaming desktops (100% personal opinion).

Has been a seriously empty niche.

------
sitkack
Still stuck with only 16GB of ram, [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/devices/surface-book...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/devices/surface-book-2/tech-specs)

~~~
masklinn
Unsurprisingly, any laptop which cares about battery life will remain limited
to 16GB until Intel supports LPDDR4.

------
garettmd
Anyone notice that the pic of the surface book with the display rotated around
(like you would if you were switching to tablet mode) doesn't actually follow
how it would rotate in real life? The keyboard should be on the bottom, not
the top...

~~~
theodorejb
Actually that photo does match real life. Rather than opening more than 180
degrees, the screen can be popped off as a standalone tablet, then flipped
around and reattached to the base.

------
dandare
How tall is the hinge when closed?

~~~
bhauer
It looks the same as the original Surface Book, which puts it at approximately
1 inch.

------
krylon
$ 99.99 for the ____ing pen?

I get that the Surface Book is supposed to be a high-end device, but that is
... far out.

Still, as much as I dislike most of their software, I have to admit Microsoft
knows how to build some neat hardware. If only it weren't so pricey...

~~~
FireBeyond
Guessing they're just playing "follow the leader" with the Apple Pencil...

[https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0C2AM/A/apple-pencil-
fo...](https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0C2AM/A/apple-pencil-for-ipad-pro)

------
GEBBL
Is anyone excited?

~~~
rhexs
Well, I bought the Surface Book 1 and returned it after a month of it barely
working. So no, not really.

~~~
kanishkdudeja
What issues did you face?

~~~
rhexs
A better question is, what issues didn't I face? Unlocking randomly wouldn't
work, the display driver was crashing when using firefox/chrome consistently,
battery life was abysmal, device would bluescreen, etc.

From what I understand they finally patched most of these out after more than
a year. No need to go on that roller coaster again.

~~~
bobjordan
Yes, from my experience all that eventually got fixed. For the first six
months that I owned my surface book, I continued to use my rMBP. But by now, I
really do enjoy using it as my primary computer. What I like most about it is
using it with two external monitors connected to the expansion dock. I flip
the screen around on my suface book and then place it in the middle between
the external monitors and hook up a wireless keyboard and mouse. This triple
monitor mode is awesome and perfect for doing some sketching or use my
programming IDE on the surface book while having the other two monitors
available for productivity. I replicated this setup at the office and home and
now I can't imagine going back.

------
roryisok
The surface page completely fails to load on my windows phone. That didn't
take long! Sat what you will about Microsoft, but their making-discontinued-
stuff-not-work-anymore department is amazingly good at its job

------
terrabytes
I have a Surface Book and absolutely love it. The trackpad is something I've
had problems with on my previous Windows laptops. The Surface book has a
fantastic trackpad, on par with Macbooks.

------
tcfunk
I suppose the tech is too new for this product launch...but I would have loved
to see 1070 max-q in this version of the surface book, especially at this
price point.

edit: I checked the price.

~~~
SomeHacker44
My Alienware 13R3 has a 1060 GPU which runs at 90W. So, I imagine their 15"
95W laptop is running the 1060 using "Max-Q" to keep it well under 90W in
power draw as well as thermal dissipation in such a small form factor.

------
usaphp
I wonder how accurate their battery life claims are, I highly doubt 17 hours
of battery life with a nvidia Getz 1060 video card, I would love to be proved
wrong thought.

~~~
slg
It says 17 hours of video playback. I am guessing that video playback is using
the integrated graphics in the tablet portion while the 1060 in the base is
powered down.

------
brailsafe
I went into a Microsoft store, sort of for a laugh, mostly to see if they did
a good job with the surface book. My main takeaways were: 1) There is no bevel
on the base which makes it hard to pick up unless you grab it my the screen.
You can't get your fingers under it. I lost my grip and dropped it from about
1cm off the table. 2) The screen is awkward to use on it's own. It's huge. 3)
It wasn't obvious to me how to take the screen off. When I did figure it out,
if memory serves, I had to yank it off in an unpleasant way.

------
stewbrew
Could somebody please tell me: How do they bend this thing so that the
keyboard and the display face upwards as shown with the device on the right?

~~~
potshot
The screen is detachable. It can attach to the keyboard facing either
direction.

------
apisarek
I understand that in Microsoft you often override the keyword "type" in
Python. Just look 1:30 in the video.

------
Sir_Cmpwn
It has a USB-C port and an... SD card reader? Use that port for something
useful!

That aside, I wonder if I can put Linux on it.

------
Roritharr
No Thunderbolt 3. Still won't buy but would want to.

Throw in 32GB RAM next time please, by then i'll need it.

------
shurcooL
I’m glad to see some competition, my hope is that this pushes Apple to improve
the next MBP more.

------
Spinfusor
I hope the hinge is much tighter than on the old models (the display shook
waaaaay too much).

------
kanishkdudeja
I hope they decrease bezels and make it more sexy, like the Dell XPS, in
future versions.

~~~
bostand
Please don't. It's a tablet, it needs some bezels.

~~~
digi_owl
In particular as Windows 10 in tablet mode makes use of gestures that involve
swiping in from outside the screen edge.

------
rado
GTX 1050 in a 13” model. Apple, please copy this feature...

------
miguelrochefort
Their Precision mouse charges via Micro-USB...

------
singularity2001
pre-order "not avilable"; that's foolish, MS

------
jochung
There are constant comparisons to the macbook pro here, but Windows will
always be a boner killer. Is there a decent Linux desktop that copies macOS'
design sensibilities properly yet?

------
0xbear
First surface book was a disaster. I took mine back after a week. Did they fix
the BSODs by now? And can it run Linux?

------
dingo_bat
It's infuriating that they don't include the pen at these prices.

------
inetknght
Can I wipe out Windows and put a better OS on it?

~~~
zerr
I'm more interested if one can put better Windows (Win7) on it.

~~~
overgryphon
You could, but not without sacrificing many of the features that make the
Surface Book unique. The pen support in Windows 7 is significantly worse, and
face authentication wouldn't work. Windows 7 isn't very usable on a tablet. To
use the GPU when you reattached the tablet you'd likely have to reboot the
machine, also a much slower operation on Windows 7.

If you don't want the above features, you could get a machine that runs
Windows 7 well with good hardware specs for less money.

------
mtgx
Does Microsoft even encrypt its own laptops by default these days? Or are they
still nickle and diming users for the use of Bitlocker encryption?

~~~
Viper007Bond
It comes with Pro, which has Bitlocker.

------
shams93
Yeah ultimately the os itself has it's limitations, I get more done on a
Thinkpad 420 I picked up refurbed for $300 with Ubuntu instead of windows 10
pro. I can run systemd daemons on Ubuntu but trying to run services like
postgresql on windows subsystem for Linux is painful with no daemon support
it's like a crippled Linux.

~~~
3131s
Yep, I have no problems with the 600$ Asus I bought 3 years ago. I would
literally quit programming and find something new if I had to use MacOS or
Windows -- totally uninterested in developing on platforms that could fall out
from under me at any time, whether by ceasing to exist or through some legal
BS.

~~~
velobro
You sound like a reasonable person

~~~
3131s
Open source is a huge part of what makes programming appealing to me. I like
to build things that will last, and that I own completely. I don't think that
Microsoft or Apple have a positive influence on society and prefer not to
support them. You can call that unreasonable all you want, but already my
approach has paid huge dividends as far as picking technologies that have
staying power and are continually gaining traction.

------
fhood
Why does every single high end laptop need to look exactly like a macbook?

I want anybody who doesn't believe me to google up a picture of one next to
the other.

~~~
waegawegawe
I think what you mean is, "why do so many high end laptops have thin, metal,
unibody chassis?"

But, when you ask the question that way, it kind of answers itself. People
like metal, because it feels more high end than plastic. Unibody chassis don't
need to be fastened together, which is good for manufacturing and looks.
People like thin laptops because they are more portable than thick ones.

~~~
freeone3000
It's technically not unibody, the keyboard (and its GPU) detach.

~~~
linarism
You may also find that the unibody MB has the screen portion housed in a
different aluminum block than the body. Semantics are dumb.

