
Ask HN: FU Money: What is your number? - biznerd
I&#x27;m guessing HN is going to have a lower number than the general population because it&#x27;s relatively easy to get a new tech job.<p>But anyways, what is your figure for FU money?<p>EDIT: I see people are putting down their early retirement number. For some people, &quot;FU Money&quot; is just a year.
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dorongrinstein
I created the doron FU scale, which like the richter scale is not linear:

-2: you must file bankruptcy -1: you may be able to repay your debt 0: you're living paycheck to paycheck 1: you can live for a year without working 2: you can live for the rest of your life without working maintaining the same lifestyle you have now 3: your kids (if any) can live their whole life without having to work 4: you can afford any luxury such as jets and yachts 5: you are in the same league with Gates, Buffet, Ellison, etc.

A few notes: You can find where you are on the scale using a decimal fraction
between the integers.

Just because level 3 says your kids can live without working does not mean you
should strive to achieve that. It is simply a measure of wealth, not a desired
outcome for obvious reasons.

Just because level 4 affords you jets does not mean everyone should aspire to
buy a jet. Again it is mentioned as a reference of what you could attain at
that level.

In America in my view, amassing $5 million gets you to level 2. The figure
could be argued and it fully depends on your style and standard of living. So
for you it might be significantly less or perhaps much more. This figure
assumes a monthly spend of $20K and a paid off house (paid out of the $5m)

~~~
tempestn
I'm with you up to the last sentence. Agreed that 5m including the house would
be enough for level 2, but I don't think it'd reliably afford 20k/month, at
least not if you're talking real dollars (which you'd have to to account for
maintaining your lifestyle for the remainder of your life). If we assume a
$500k house, 20k/month is 240k/year, which is over 5% of your remaining 4.5M.
Even at standard retirement age the rule of thumb is a 4% real withdrawal
rate, and many people think that's optimistic in this low interest rate
environment. Assuming you're relatively young I wouldn't want to go more than
3% real withdrawal rate, ideally less.

Fortunately, my family's current lifestyle is nowhere near 20k/month! :) My
level 2 number is 3M, not including the paid-off house (which unfortunately is
rather more than 500k here...), which should afford 90k/year real (before
taxes) at 3% withdrawal rate.

~~~
gfodor
I'm not following. Tax free munis or corporate bonds throw off a 5-6% tax
adjusted yield. You can always plow anything you don't spend back into fixed
income to make up for inflation. So unless you are expecting massive inflation
you'll be good.

~~~
tempestn
Even a 5-6% tax-adjusted yield (which seems high, but I'm in Canada so I don't
follow US rates too closely) is less than 5% after any inflation. Also
corporate and municipal bonds are not without risk, although it's not large
with proper diversification.

Parent implied the 20k/month was spending money. If you're reinvesting some of
that money, then you're effectively reducing your withdrawal rate, in which
case I agree. Also if you're willing to reduce your spending in the case of a
downturn you could withstand a higher withdrawal rate. I'm just saying that a
5%+ real withdrawal rate is not sustainable indefinitely in a vacuum.

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oofabz
$2M. I could live off that for the rest of my life if I invested wisely and
lived frugally, and I'm pretty good at both. I'd live on a sailboat and work
on software that there's absolutely no money in, like DragonflyBSD, Wayland,
Enlightenment, Haiku, etc. It would be relaxing and fulfilling to be an artist
instead of a capitalist.

~~~
aianus
Why can't you do that with $1M?

~~~
oofabz
The boat!

~~~
esw
Depends on the boat! A friend of mine just bought a beautiful 38' sailboat to
live aboard. It was less than $90k.

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DanBlake
About 10m. Invest that into 'safe' assets that only produce 3% a year, but do
so with low risk and low overheard.

300k a year is about the right number to do everything you want to do if you
are a family. Buy whatever cars you want (within reason) - travel when you
want, eat what you want, live where you want. Thats the definition of FU
money.

You can do it for less, but its not FU money if you have to worry about
possibly losing your fortune.

Kids/family increases the number obviously, if they go to private
school/college- Add 50k/yr per kid to that figure above.

~~~
cookerware
10 million dollars after taxes so I'm guessing the actual amount is higher,
possibly around 15 million dollars. on top of that 300k a year will be
subjected to taxation, you will end up with 188k a year, not quite the 300k.
you would need around 450k a year and after taxes, you will end up with 300k.
to be able to produce that much you'd need about 15 million dollars after
taxes. so in reality you'd need about 20 million dollars.

20 million dollars, would generate 300k after taxes if invested in bonds. from
the 20 million, you'd end up with 15 or 14 million dollars after paying taxes.

so 20 million dollars is what one would need to target for.

however, note that you'd need to live in a large mansion that's already paid
for and maintenance and expenses, property taxations being paid, I'd put away
30~50k for upkeep. You will probably have two kids on average so it will be
another 100,000 to support them.

21 million, seems to be the true 'FU' money. After that leave off 400,000
after tax a year in money.

21 million is a staggering figure for someone starting out. I don't even know
if I will get to one million.

~~~
nightski
It's also pretty outrageous. A person can live very comfortably on say 50k a
year in many areas of the country (without kids).

~~~
prostoalex
Living in some area you have to live due to financial constraints and not
exploring the world at your own schedule is the opposite of definition of FU
money.

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Riseed
About $500k-600k would mean I would not need to work for pay for the rest of
my life. Doing whatever I please doesn't cost much money.

If I'm only taking one year off, I'd _want_ $20-50k so I could travel, but
~$12k would be more than sufficient for me to drop a job without worry.

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throwawayTRS
Have had this tested recently. I was at a startup that got acquired early by a
company I didn't love. Salary, equity vesting + retention package package came
to about a little less than $1M/year for 4 years. Took one year and decided it
was enough to say "fuck you." So did most of the rest of the team. (Not sure
exactly what their #s were.)

It was interesting -- if you'd asked me a couple years ago how I would've
acted in that situation, I think I'd've told you that for that kind of money
I'd be stupid not to stick out four years. But when it actually happened I
barely even considered it.

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nonce42
$8M. This is based on personal experience - that's the number where it started
to feel different.

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tolas
$10k+ MRR (actually monthly recurring take home) with little to no work on my
part (ie: 4hrs/wk ish)

It's much more likely than me magically getting $5mm+, so I'm going to go with
that.

~~~
opendais
Ya, that would work. I'd just worry whatever gravy train generated that would
fail after 3-5 years.

~~~
esw
Exactly. You have to figure out how long that gravy train needs to last in
order to reach financial independence.

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ljoshua
$300k. This would be the perfect amount for me to stop working for someone
else, take good care of my family, and have a very large runway to try out
some audacious ideas. Then after a few years if I wasn't liking the direction
it was taking, I would be in no hard spot and would have done some incredible
things, both professionally and with the fam. (To clarify, $300k is the "quit
today" amount.)

I also think that with that amount of capital it would be more plausible to
create a business that would then generate the much higher numbers others are
suggesting here.

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chroman
$1M. I could live off for the rest of my life with this number here in Mexico.
Simpler life, side on projects, maybe doing open source, not worring too much
about the money.

~~~
MichaelGG
Being in Central America, yes some expenses are lower, but the additional
security requirements seems like they could add up. I don't think it'd be out
of the question to need $50K+ a year for a good multi-person 24/7 security
detail.

Plus as the upper class stays that way, it seems living in good spots starts
costing as much as US cities. Even going to the movies, just my wife and I,
can easily hit $100.

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joshvm
Well some people love the rich life here!

Assuming no need for work, I would say £2.5m to never work again. Tax free
savings aren't much in the UK: you can put away £11k per year in an ISA and
£40k total in Premium Bonds. For non UK people, ISAs are tax-free savings
accounts that can either be cash only, stock only or half cash/stock (but
stock only has a higher annual limit).

An initial £500k is used to clear any debts, clear the mortgage (or buy a new
house) and buy whatever creature comforts are needed e.g. do up the house, buy
a nice efficient car, etc. I would probably go and live in Spain and build an
eco house, solar is actually decent there and living costs are pretty low (if
you don't need to work!).

Let's assume a poor rate of return of 3% on the remaining £2m, or £60,000
before tax. The taxman will take 20% of that giving £48,000 to you. £11k of
that should go straight back into tax free savings, so you've got £37,000
remaining. Some years you'll do better, some you'll do worse, but you could
probably push for 5% without much trouble most years. I think my first port of
call would be to hire a very good accountant.

That's not a bad salary at all, especially if you own your house, car, etc.
It's also more than enough to support dependents, but if you start thinking
about private schools then it eats into it a bit. You have plenty to live day
to day and enough to go on a good holiday each year.

Let's assume you're fairly old when you get this magic windfall and have 40
years left to live. By the time you die, you'll have around a million in the
ISA, by the power of compound interest. The bonds will pay out on average 1-2%
a year leaving around £80k unless you win the jackpot. You'll also still have
your starter £2m.

Remember that rich people stay rich because they don't spend money.

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cookerware
there's few different categories of FU money each with increasingly lower
probability

1 million dollars: doable but very hard. you can finally buy that crack shack
in vancouver, bc

10 million dollars: could be doable depending how you got to your first
million. if it's scalable operation, no problem.

100 million dollars: continued growth from previous operation with compounding
returns or have been part of a successful startup that was sold.

1000 million dollars: founder/co-founder of a company that was sold previously
to a very large search engine or social network.

10000 million dollars: own majority equity in a very well known public
company, inherited.

100000 million dollars: run a country that produces oil or cocaine as it's
most popular exports. You can't have any competition around. launder it
excessively.

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opendais
3 million.

The safe withdrawal rate is between 2-3%, tbh. You've got to eat inflation,
down turns, etc.

I could live off of 60-90k/year [depending on the market], and not worry too
much.

However, if you throw in a wife [that brings you to 6 million] and the
expectation of kids...its probably like 7-8 million.

~~~
joeclark77
I'm thinking something similar, but remember also that on top of the
60-90k/year, you will also have an extra income from you (and your spouse)
doing "whatever you want" which may only add a few tens of thousands, but it'd
make a difference. You're not going to sit around on your sofa playing video
games for 365 days a year, are you?

~~~
opendais
As a Catholic, I'd figure you'd have more respect for volunteer work and such?

Last time I checked, that didn't pay.

~~~
joeclark77
Is that what you're going to do 365 days a year? I think the typical
definition of "FU money" is, enough money so that you never have to do
anything you don't want to do. Not so you simply never have to do anything, at
all, ever...

~~~
opendais
Yes, actually. I have a cousin who runs a charity that could use someone to do
their IT work for free.

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andreshb
I don't need a lot of money to do as I please.

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downandout
$20M at least. To me, the definition of FU money is having enough money to
turn down an opportunity to make $1M simply because you wouldn't enjoy the
work. Even at $5-$10M, you're still considering those kinds of offers.

People are saying much lower amounts in these comments, but one or two million
doesn't go nearly as far as people think. When I think about the people I've
known that are truly free and are easily able to afford enviable lifestyles,
$20M seems to be starting point.

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dpeck
I've always ballparked that if things fell into place with a project and I
walked away with 10M or more I'd be out of the game.

However the reality is that people who are ok with cashing out and walking
away from the table seem to seldom be the ones getting the payoff.

EDIT: I don't think a lot of you all know what FU money is. Its enough that
you can say "FU" to anyone on the planet and not have any worries about doing
so as you no longer need anything from anyone.

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austenallred
F U money in my mind means "could live comfortably and never have to worry
about money again." Depending on age, I estimate $10m (I like to travel)

~~~
aianus
Traveling is _cheaper_ than living in the US/Canada.

~~~
stephencanon
That depends rather a lot on what kind of traveling one wants to do. Posh
hotels in major cities? Remote mountains in developing countries?

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User9812
Note: Numbers below would be money in the bank, after taxes.

1 million: Takes the edge off, I could support a family, and live a reasonable
lifestyle. I'd take up a hobby with the spouse, or work on personal projects
to bring in some extra money and to keep busy.

2 million: Similar to above, but working is no longer necessary. I could life
comfortably and be happy. Of course, I'd need to be careful with my spending,
and not drop $1,000 on a bottle of wine. I'm not one for fancy toys, so this
could easily be retirement money in my situation.

3 million+: Same as 2 million, but I'd just have the option to do everything a
little bigger. Higher end cars, larger house, more expensive city, better
downtown location, etc. Personally, not necessary, so I'd just bank it, or put
it towards a startup.

In short, I'll say 2 million is FU money. It provides everything I need in
life, it would support a family, and at that point I can leave the rat race.

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adinb
$5 million. I'm a simple man with simple pleasures. ;)

~~~
tdicola
That's my number too, with a conservative rate of return you could make $200k
a year on interest alone. Probably not enough money to live in crazy expensive
areas or go jet-setting around the globe, but certainly enough to do whatever
you want.

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jesusmichael
$50M... that's 10M in spending cash, 40M in investments, and with a moderate
rate of return I'm making $2.5-5M a year for the rest of my life...

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icpmacdo
Every morning in the shower I think about dropping everything after 70 million
and living great forever.

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aianus
At 22 years old it's probably around $800k with no wife or kids. According to
an annuity calculator I found online, that's about $1100 a month for the next
60 years adjusted for inflation. More than enough to retire outside Europe/NA.

~~~
MichaelGG
I guess it depends on what FU means. If it means just retiring, then there's
plenty of ways. If it means being able to move or fix many circumstances to
your liking, then I think $1100 a month may be too little.

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__xtrimsky
50M for me.

8-10M for a house in a perfect location

10M at least for retirement

10M for living, house taxes, vacations, probably a boat.

10M for creating a company, funding it myself at first.

The 10M left I would probably share it with family. If I'm the only rich
person around my family that would suck. And I have a big family.

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mooij
About $1m. Enough to buy a house and take care of
emergencies/unemployment/travel. I would drive me insane not to be able to
program, but it's nice to be picky about what programming you actually do.

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joeclark77
Notice that not one reply here has quoted a figure in bitcoins.

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mindcrime
I've always thought somewhere around $4M would be enough, but I'd feel more
comfortable with about $10M to allow for contingencies.

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LyndsySimon
If I had 1k BTC, I'd be willing to quit my job and work solely on my passions
for a while.

If I had 5k BTC, I'd never need to make money again.

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purringmeow
2 million Euro. Just putting it in bank with 5% interest is 100,000 euro/year
- more than enough for me.

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DiabloD3
$25m.

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rbanffy
Last time I checked, $4M would be enough.

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dar8919
North of 20M $

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general_failure
200m usd

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fuddle
$1m

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lotsofmangos
£1

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antidaily
However much Dan Bilzerian has.

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pikachu_is_cool
$75,070 + however much taxes needed to purchase a Tesla Model S.

I literally would not need anything else. I could go wherever I wanted
whenever I wanted. I wouldn't have to pay for gas. I'd use Uber to drive
people around with zero expenses. I'd sleep in the spacious back seat.

