
Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years - rafaelc
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/01/business/cash-bail-system-reform.html
======
Someone1234
This is a very interesting data driven article that will make you depressed. I
recommend it.

> Technological solutions, like electronic anklets that monitor an
> individual’s whereabouts, are another option. Even sending text-message
> reminders to show up in court makes it more likely that a defendant will do
> so. All these options are cheaper than incarceration.

I hope this gains popularity. Cash bail discriminates against the poor and is
unfairly applied (see article); using technological tracking, check-ins, and
similar might be a fairer solution that can be applied uniformly.

I would like to say on a more general note: The influence of money in US
criminal justice seems to corrupt everything it touches. From prisons, to
parole, to representation, to sentencing, and beyond. Everything we can do to
get money's influence out of criminal justice we should do.

~~~
candiodari
The article also proves things that people were unwilling to accept in this
article:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19253333](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19253333)

There people always made the point that human judges making just decisions
based on fairness. Well, clearly not.

Algorithms would be another, better way to know exactly what makes the
determination if a person should be released awaiting trial or not.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
>Algorithms would be another, better way to know exactly what makes the
determination if a person should be released awaiting trial or not.

Isn't it a source of constant concern that the algorithms that end up being
used in law enforcement inevitably end up employing the same stereotypes that
their flesh and blood counterparts have?

~~~
netsharc
But wouldn't algorithms be easy to examine? At the least you can test it with
similar circumstances and modify the "race" variable and see if the results
are consistent or different. Humans have many self-image protective layers
when questioned (e.g. "I'm not racist, I have black friends!"), Bbut hopefully
algorithms are more transparent...

~~~
throwaway_boi
Race variable is often correlated with other data.

Look at red lining in real estate/banking. They marked black neighbourhoods
with red boxes, white neighbourhoods with green. The bank would approve
business and home loans depending on if you were in a red or green area.
Algorithmically the banks did not engage in a racist practice but systemically
they are.

~~~
umvi
But did they mark red areas _because_ they were black neighborhoods or because
historically people in those neighborhoods defaulted on loans?

An algorithm as simple as "mark neighborhoods with high default rates as red,
low default rates as green" would probably turn out to be "racist" even if it
is also flagging poor white trailer parks with red.

There's no easy way to solve that

~~~
ska
At least in the case of historic redlining (i.e. where the term came from), we
don't have to wonder - there has been a ton of research done on this, and it
was pretty clearly a racially motivated discriminatory practice. A fact which
resulting in, among other measures, the fair housing act in the late 60s....

------
DoreenMichele
I wish we would focus more on reweaving our tattered social fabric so people
can access housing, healthcare, etc affordably and consistently. We also need
to make it easier for parents to put their kids first. From what I gather,
money spent on preschool reduces money spent on prison down the line as just
one example of the direct and known connection between how we treat our kids
and crime statistics.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to address problems with our prisons and
courts, etc. But I don't like the general trend in the world to improve fire
fighting practices without doing fire prevention while frequently putting out
the fire with gasoline, so to speak.

"Fire fighting" gets you hailed as a hero. "Fire prevention" tends to be
dismissed as "You didn't really do anything. You just got lucky." Humans are
super bad at counting the disasters that didn't happen, but should/would have.
So "fire fighting" is more attractive, "sexy" and heroic.

But it's a really sick system that actively creates problems in order to give
a few people the role of "hero" on the backs of the many victims of the
system. And I would very much like to see less of that.

~~~
maxxxxx
""Fire fighting" gets you hailed as a hero. "Fire prevention" tends to be
dismissed as "You didn't really do anything. You just got lucky." Humans are
super bad at counting the disasters that didn't happen, but should/would have.
So "fire fighting" is more attractive, "sexy" and heroic."

There is generally no respect for maintenance and things that last. Same in
the corporate world. The people who keep systems running get labeled as
"dinosaurs".

~~~
DoreenMichele
I stayed home with my kids until they were in their teens. I did so in part
because I was molested and raped after my sister left for college and my mom
began working, leaving me unprotected from a predator.

My kids were never molested. It was crystal clear in my mind that the single
biggest thing I could do to protect them from predators was simply be present.
They spent little time in daycare or home alone.

I am often reluctant to talk about that. Stay at home moms are treated like
unambitious losers mooching off their gainfully employed husbands. Self
proclaimed feminists are routinely really ugly to me and other women like me.
Talking about the importance of a parent being there gets decried as being a
misogynistic dinosaur advocating for women to be barefoot and pregnant.

I also have been told that my presence at home is not why my sons were never
molested. I was merely "lucky" and I'm wrongfully trying to take credit for
some random roll of the dice when I didn't actually do a fucking thing.

But I'm quite clear that civilization is mostly nurtured quietly by "thankless
jobs" and the celebrated heroes are often a symptom of a failed system, so
celebrating them sometimes strikes me as part of the problem, not part of the
solution.

My sons understand the things I've done for them and they routinely tell me
"You're an awesome mom and I'm so glad you raised me." But the rest of the
world is pretty bad about making me feel like a total fucking loser with
nothing of value to offer who doesn't deserve an adequate income and should
stop whining about being poor.

So it's driven home to me daily that the world terribly undervalues quiet
maintenance type work.

~~~
maxxxxx
"So it's driven home to me daily that the world terribly undervalues quiet
maintenance type work."

I always think about how little the cleaners at a company are paid. In a sense
they keep the whole thing running but they get sooo little respect.

~~~
DoreenMichele
One of the reasons I ultimately quit my corporate job: during the recession,
they cut back on janitorial to save money.

I was taking my own trash out of my cubicle every other day because I have a
compromised immune system and it makes me too sick to work to leave trash
there for two days.

I wonder how much productivity went down because of this one decision without
anyone but me seeing any connection whatsoever.

------
llamataboot
Bail funds have emerged in many cities to help get people out of jail while
they await their trial. If you are interested (and hopefully appalled) by how
many people are locked in cages in the United States without being convicted
of anything simply because they don't have the money to post bail, please find
one and donate to it. Your money can keep working to get many people out of
jail long after you donate.

[https://www.communityjusticeexchange.org/nbfn-
directory](https://www.communityjusticeexchange.org/nbfn-directory)

[https://www.immigrantbailfund.org/about](https://www.immigrantbailfund.org/about)

[https://bailproject.org/](https://bailproject.org/)

~~~
LanceH
I served on a jury where the guy was in jail for 3 days short of six months.
He ended up being convicted on a charge which carries a maximum of 6 months.
He almost certainly wouldn't have received 6 months (if any time at all), so
inability to pay bail was the greater crime.

------
rb808
I'd like to know if anyone can run and start a new life somewhere else. Is it
possible?

I suspect Bail is an anachronism in these modern times. 100 years ago you
could jump on a train and virtually disappear, never be seen again. Now cops
can track people's phone to see exactly where they are at any time of the day.

~~~
jandrese
If someone really wants to run they can still do so, but the story you hear
from everybody who does it is that it's not worth it. You spend the rest of
your life looking over your shoulder and working petty jobs for cash and
living in squalor because the nice places check ID. You also can't contact
friends and family anymore. It's a sucky life.

~~~
sokoloff
I suspect Whitey Bulger preferred being on the run to the alternative. If
someone decides "it's not worth it" and wants to stop running, all they need
to do is turn themselves in. Their revealed preferences suggest that they
prefer being on the run.

~~~
lurquer
In some cases, once you flee/escape/skip-bail you will face additional charges
(as well as likely getting a stiffer sentence for the underlying crime.)

The miserable life of being on the run might not have been worth the original
threat being faced, but, regrettably, it may be worth the original threat +
the new threat.

That's why every so often governments will have amnesty-like programs where
you are able to turn yourself in with no extra consequences if you have a
warrant. Or, for that matter, register for citizenship or legal status without
fear of facing the legal consequences for the original illegal entry or
overstay of visa.

------
elicash
There shouldn't be fees of __ANY __kind in the justice system.

~~~
dumbfounder
Strictly speaking it isn't a fee. If you have all of the money for your bail
you give it up but you get all of it back when you show up court. If you use a
bail bondsman that's who charges you the fee. They are basically giving you a
loan, and then they are on the hook to make sure you show up.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
I guess I'm confused to why a system needs to have bail bondsmen - isn't the
idea behind bail being something you can possibly give up but want to get
back? Isn't bail bonds something you can't afford? Even just paying the fee
might be too much for people, but the alternative is to wait in jail an unjust
amount of time.

~~~
philwelch
Most people don't have enough cash on hand to pay any amount of bail that
would serve as an incentive for them to get back--especially not most people
who get arrested on criminal complaints.

The bail bondsman actually provides another service to the court: he has the
legal power and financial incentive to apprehend a suspect and return them to
the custody of the court if you skip bail. In other words, instead of the
county sheriff having to worry about apprehending everyone who skips bail,
they effectively outsource it to the bail bondsman. The bail bondsman thus has
an incentive to make sure you don't skip bail, or failing that, to make sure
that he can apprehend you--and these risks are priced into the effective rate
of interest on the bail bond. (Most "bounty hunters" in the US are just bail
bondsmen trying to recover their suspect, or somebody working for or
contracted by the same.)

It's a fairly underrated and underappreciated market mechanism where the
entire problem of "making sure people show up to court if they are on trial"
can be handled by a competitive market, usually more efficiently or humanely
than most local governments would do themselves. But it involves money
changing hands, which gets certain people all up in a lather about abolishing
it.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
> But it involves money changing hands, which gets certain people all up in a
> lather about abolishing it.

If you're found innocent is the bail fee rescinded?

~~~
bigwheeler
If by “bail fee” you mean the money that the bail bondsman charges you, then
no, it is not. You can basically think of bail bondsmen like a bank. You are
borrowing money from them to get out of jail. Their fee is like a high
interest rate on the loan. They are a completely separate entity than the
court that decides whether you are guilty or innocent. For instance- if you
hired a lawyer and were found innocent, would you expect the lawyer to refund
you your legal fees? Same with the bail bondsman. He is just doing the job you
paid him to do (get you out).

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
I wonder if the bail fees have increased over the years because of the
existence of said bondsmen.

------
drilldrive
Cash bail is a terrible system, but not having it is worse. At least from what
I understand, the states removing cash bail end up having the judges keep much
more people in jail, as suddenly everybody is a flight risk.

~~~
richardhod
This is a false dichotomy. There is non-cash bail too, and other systems of
encouraging or ensuring people attend court.

~~~
drilldrive
Of course there are other options, but nothing gets people to show up quite
like money does. I looked a fair bit and unfortunately have not found any
statistics on holding rates before and after bail reform in the states doing
so, neither have I found flight rates before and after, so if anybody could
clear the air here I would greatly appreciate it.

------
dczx
John Arnold’s Artificial Intelligence Tool is systematically tricking judges
to profit off criminals and unsuspecting taxpaying citizens.

John Arnold started as a non profit foundation, after deceiving cities to use
their “Machine Learning”, they incorporated as an LLC anticipating profits
using good unsuspecting judges as pawns.
[https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/laura-and-john-
arnol...](https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/laura-and-john-arnold-
foundation-to-restructure-as-llc)

After selling his Artificial Intelligence Tool to Washington D.C. there has
been a 227% surge in crimes. “We have witnessed the tragic impact that a
climate of hate and division can cause. The FBI report highlights how
communities across DC must continue to confront intolerance and bigotry, and
continue to work together to build and maintain an inclusive and welcoming
city” – Anti-Defamation League [https://www.washingtonian.com/2018/11/14/hate-
crimes-are-up-...](https://www.washingtonian.com/2018/11/14/hate-crimes-are-
up-62-percent-in-dc/)

The NAACP, ACLU, MIT and 100 other organizations panicking as John Arnold
pushes his racist and secret machine learning algorithm to decide who goes to
jail, “More than 100 civil rights and community-based organizations, signed a
statement urging against the use of risk assessment.”
[https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612775/algorithms-
crimina...](https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612775/algorithms-criminal-
justice-ai/)

Criminal Justice is a human element, that needs to focus on humans deciding
who goes to jail while we address real issues such as Community Development
and Prison Reform. [https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/justice-and-prison-
reform/pri...](https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/justice-and-prison-
reform/prison-reform-and-alternatives-to-imprisonment.html)

------
m-p-3
The justice system in the US is skewed towards profit. No real justice can
prevail if the system favors money above all.

------
cik
Cathy O'Neill wrote a terrific book a couple of years back called 'Weapons of
Math Destruction'. It's a must read for those of us in this field - and
generally a great eye opener.

It would behoove us all to think about the consequences of the algorithms
we're working on - much like this article.

------
kazinator
> _In itself, an inability to pay bail after being arrested makes it more
> likely that you will be convicted of that offense,_

That could be, at least in part, due to inability to post bail being
correlated with actually, like, being guilty.

That and being unsophisticated and without a lawyer.

> _The implications of the two studies are powerful and troubling. Being
> behind bars while awaiting trial had profound negative repercussions, and
> they were borne disproportionately by low-income people and by black
> people._

For pete's sake, and the umpteenth time, correlation doesn't imply cause and
effect.

------
ars
"Consider two defendants with similar backgrounds who were accused of a
nonviolent property crime or misdemeanor. By the luck of the draw, one faced a
lenient judge and was released, and the other got a different judge who set an
unaffordable bail amount

The detained arrestee was more likely to appear in court for his trial.

But he was also more likely to be convicted."

OR

The Judge knew what he was doing in setting a higher bail for the one who was
convicted.

This whole narrative hinges on the study authors knowing more than the Judge
what a proper level of bail is - despite not actually being there.

~~~
jakelazaroff
The intention of bail is to ensure that defendants who are not jailed show up
to trial, not to prevent guilty suspects from being free before their
conviction.

------
andrewla
I'm surprised that one of the simplest solutions hasn't been tried. Bail
bondsmen are restricted by statute on how much they can charge; we should at
least consider lowering the rate from 10% to something much lower (1-2%?) and
putting tools like follow-up text messages, etc., in the hands of these
agencies. It's not ideal but it is in their best interest to ensure that their
clients show up in court rather than have to chase them down.

~~~
philwelch
I would be surprised if there's anything preventing bail bondsmen from sending
text messages to their clients. I mean, there's nothing preventing them from
physically apprehending their suspects after they skip bail, so sending a text
message is definitely within their means.

The problem with lowering the maximum rate is that this would put high-risk
suspects in jail since they wouldn't even have the choice of making bail.
Which is the same problem with abolishing cash bail. With cash bail, if
someone's a higher risk, the judge can set a higher level of bail in case
there's a bondsman willing to stick his neck out for him.

------
mrnobody_67
I really like the Bail Project -
[https://www.ted.com/talks/robin_steinberg_what_if_we_ended_t...](https://www.ted.com/talks/robin_steinberg_what_if_we_ended_the_injustice_of_bail?language=en)

------
chaoticmass
>The study found that being held in jail while awaiting trial also makes it
more likely that, two to four years after an initial arrest, you will be
engaged in criminal behavior or unemployed.

Correlation vs causation, yadda yadda

~~~
michaericalribo
Thankfully, there’s more to publishing in top journals than ‘yadda yadda.’
Instrumental variables allow for statements about causality, which is exactly
the statistical tool the authors used.

------
mnm1
With the ubiquitous tracking technology we have these days, why are we still
putting innocent people in jail? It's barbaric and unjust. Give them a GPS
bracelet and let them go home or wherever they want. Or have we given up
completely on the "innocent until proven guilty" idea?

~~~
sokoloff
Suppose someone is accused of a mass shooting, murdering their neighbor,
beating up their spouse, carjacking, or armed robbery. Right then, off you go;
just wear this bracelet...

Doesn't seem particularly reasonable to not incarcerate _anyone_ before trial.

~~~
jdietrich
Posting a cash bail has no bearing on your risk to the public. If a judge
thinks that you pose a high risk, you shouldn't be offered bail at any price;
if you don't pose a significant risk, you should be offered bail conditional
on your behaviour during the bail period rather than your ability to pay.

The vast majority of people on bail aren't mass murderers or armed robbers,
they're petty criminals and drug addicts. If you think a shoplifter might
reoffend while on bail, then make his bail conditional on staying away from
the local mall. If you think a domestic abuser might reoffend while on bail,
then make his bail conditional on having no contact with his spouse. If you
think that someone might abscond, then make his bail conditional on GPS
tagging or regularly signing on at a police station.

Bail conditions (with suitable monitoring) are fairer and more effective than
cash bail.

~~~
philwelch
Bail conditions are all well and good, and it's not an either/or--even if you
pay cash bail for a domestic violence charge, you're still required to stay
away from the alleged victim.

The purpose of cash bail is to make sure the suspect shows up to court. Which
--sure, can be replaced with monitoring, and then instead of having a bail
bondsman pick up bail-jumpers at zero cost to the taxpayer, the taxpayer can
pay the sheriff's department to round up bail-jumpers instead.

~~~
mnm1
Sounds like a win win situation. We get rid of the scummy bail bonds men and
we make the sheriff so his job all the while not putting innocent people in
jail. Oh, what's that? You'd rather have innocent people in jail rather than
paying the sheriff to do his job every once in awhile? That's quite an immoral
position.

