
Virtual Reality Can Leave You with an Existential Hangover - Fjolsvith
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/12/post-vr-sadness/511232?single_page=true
======
wlesieutre
The ad I got to the right of the article is a steel top straight out of
Inception. Anyone else, or is that just a weird coincidence?
[http://i.imgur.com/0ao0aSQ.png](http://i.imgur.com/0ao0aSQ.png)

> “I understood that the demo was over, but it was [as] if a lower level part
> of my mind couldn’t exactly be sure. It gave me a very weird existential
> dread of my entire situation, and the only way I could get rid of that
> feeling was to walk around or touch things around me.”

> It seems that VR is making people ill in a way no one predicted. And as hard
> as it is to articulate the effects, it may prove even harder to identify its
> cause.

Ok, I know Inception was technically about dreams and not "strap a screen on
your face" VR, but really? "No one predicted"? I've only ever tried an Oculus
DK1 and didn't experience anything like this, but I think they're stretching
it to say nobody imagined that this could happen.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
> And as hard as it is to articulate the effects, it may prove even harder to
> identify its cause.

How is this sensation any different from any other existensial crisis? There
are many causes for that, widely discussed both in Western and Eastern
Philosophy.

E.g. Sartre's most known work, Being and Nothingness, is very much focused on
this. Sartre's Nothingness is, despite what you might think, a positive force
and ultimately what provides for our free will; it resembles somehow the
tabula rasa of Aristotle, the mind being a clean slate. You can imagine
anything you want, completely unconstrained. This is in sharp conflict with
Being; as a human in the physical world you are bound by external constraints:
time, money, family etc. Most people will deny the conflict, believing that
the constraints of their Being are compatible with their Nothingness.
Acknowledgement of the conflict provokes existential crisis.

When we step into a VR world, we are brought away from the Being and closer to
the true experience of Nothingness. We can literally experience anything,
unconstrained. Thus when we return, we are forced to reconsider the Being, to
reacknowledge its conflict with our inherent Nothingness.

Accordingly, the difference between this crisis and the ones experienced after
the end of any immersive escapist experience, be it cinema, books or even
music, is at best a matter of degree.

~~~
extr
I'm struggling to find the exact passage, but in Thomas Metzinger's Being No
One, he brings up a similar concept in regard to lucid dreaming. There we find
ourselves with access to the full spectrum of experience that we are capable
of mentally modeling without regard to what is physically possible. I found
this concept interesting but it wasn't explored fully, thanks for linking it
back to Sartre, perhaps I should read some of him next.

------
hathawsh
I've often wondered how other people deal with the questions of existence.
What is real, after all? The only thing I feel certain of is that I exist in
some form. "I think, therefore I am." I have no absolute certainty of anything
else beyond that; I have to accept everything else with varying degrees of
faith.

I came to understand that years ago. It was agonizing at first, but I've come
to terms with it. I learned that if I align myself with things that are
probably true, I can be happy. Certainty is simply not required anymore.

It seems to me that people who don't understand this principle (that almost
nothing is certain) would be more prone to dissociative effects. As for
myself, I find it hard to imagine VR would have any effect on my state of mind
since I'm not convinced reality isn't VR anyway. :-)

~~~
dsp1234
_I 've often wondered how other people deal with the questions of existence.
What is real, after all?_

My dad had an old saying:

"There's shit you can do shit about, and there's shit you can't do shit
about".

Definitely can't do anything about whether we are in VR right now, or whether
or not we actually exist.

~~~
azeirah
Yes we can, we can try to send a message to the creatures in higher levels of
reality.

~~~
willismichael
I'll take the bait, people have been doing that for thousands of years and
call it prayer.

~~~
ehsanu1
Nah, they'd ignore that, if they even notice. You have to forcibly make them
take notice. Like take over a galaxy and make all the stars in it blink in
synchrony in some sort of code and establish a communication channel.

~~~
sangnoir
You are assumming they higher beings are functioning on timescales comparable
to ours. Imagine a colony of microbes on an agar block writing out morse code
intended for us - but there is no-one and the labs are locked for the night.
Yet they keep trying for generations...

Alternatively - the spatial scales are very different and an entire galaxy or
ours is not observable by their 'naked' eyes.

~~~
ehsanu1
Sure, it really depends on the speed of the simulation relative to their own,
and the level of resources poured into this (is it a high school project, or
the combined output of their entire civilization? what do they look for
inside, if anything?), and of course, their actual objectives.

Honestly, who wants to talk to some snot-nosed humans? They probably don't
bother checking until the universe becomes one giant superorganism anyways.
And even then maybe they just make their observations and ignore it as it
tries to wave them down.

------
wrs
A mild form of this happened to me after watching _Tron_ \-- the original --
which must have been one of the first opportunities to become immersed in
(nearly) totally artificial visuals. I walked out of the theater into the
parking lot, which had a Tron-like simplicity of geometry and bright color
scheme, and had a disturbing feeling of unreality that lasted several minutes.

------
unclebucknasty
The _San Junipero_ episode of _Black Mirror_ nailed it--limiting people's time
in VR to avoid "side effects". That show is just hauntingly prescient with its
straddle between what's possible now and what's just-slightly-out-of-reach.

Growing numbers of people preferring an alternative reality is scary to me.
And the idea that it may cause a psychological break with reality for a
significant number of people is even scarier--as if we need more people
disassociated and thus capable of committing heinous or anti-social acts.

Strange that we're just cruising into this with little alarm. Stranger still
that we don't find any issue with a relatively small number of people
literally jockeying to redefine reality for the masses for commercial gain.

The times they are a changin'.

~~~
andybak
> Stranger still that we don't find any issue with a relatively small number
> of people literally jockeying to redefine reality for the masses for
> commercial gain.

That's unusually harsh. A lot of people involved in VR love it and want others
to experience it. You make it sound like they are spreading a virus.

~~~
unclebucknasty
I don't think it's harsh at all, but I'm not quite sure which part raises an
issue for you. If you're saying that they are motivated by their desire to
"spread their love" much more than the economic benefit they seek, then why
not do this in a non-profit fashion?

But, I won't quibble with that point. I mean, I do think that the economic
benefit sets up the potential to "taint" the benovolenct love fest, but my
much bigger point is WRT the very idea that a relative few people would
redefine reality for everyone else by any motivation. It's an incredible
amount of power to hand over and I think it warrants caution.

That they are seeking to profit from it simply underscores this point and adds
an additional "Dystopian Future Sci-fi Creep Factor".

~~~
andybak
Would the same argument work against cinema? Surely the difference between VR
and film is one of degree rather than a categorical change.

I think there will be negative and positive aspects if/when VR becomes mass
market but it's the opening up of a new creative medium and on the whole that
has always been a net benefit for humanity.

~~~
unclebucknasty
> _Surely the difference between VR and film is one of degree rather than a
> categorical change._

Degree matters. And, naming them both media doesn't make them qualitatively
the same to begin with.

> _I think there will be negative and positive aspects_

Respectfully, one can use that argument to wave off any concern about
anything. But, here, experiencing lasting and disturbing dissociative effects
after walking away from the interaction is not the same as feeling momentarily
sad after watching a film.

> _that has always been a net benefit for humanity._

I'm not sure if that's categorically true but, there is certainly no rule that
says it must always be so, irrespective of the actual medium or environment.

And, I think it's safe to say we are in uncharted waters here. We've never had
a medium that competes with reality so effectively or whose effects are more
akin to doing psychadelic drugs than reading a book or watching film.

I'm not willing to declare that a net positive just yet.

------
harwluk
Certainly this is not a new occurrence as a reaction to media of any kind.
Some of my favorite novels have left me experiencing a similar melange of
feelings and detachment from the real world (not to a severe extent by any
means). Turning the last page has left me with the reminder that not only will
I not ever be able to experience the world of the novel in a physical sense,
but won't even be able experience the thrill and excitement of vicariously
living the story of the characters through reading, not knowing what will
happen next.

~~~
electronvolt
Having experienced slight feelings of melange/detachment following novels,
video games, and movies in the past, and having experienced what this article
is describing: it's not quite the same feeling.

With movies/novels/etc., I've always experienced what you're describing as
something similar to a feeling of loss--the world you experienced or the story
you were involved in or the characters you cared about will no longer be there
as a new experience, no longer have new experiences as characters, etc. That
'world' is gone.

With VR, even if I don't really miss the experience, I've experienced what I'd
describe as a "readjustment" phase of between 10 minutes and a couple hours
(depending on length of experience and how recently I'd been in VR) where the
real world feels disconnected/less real. It's a much more intense and visceral
feeling, and doesn't have the same undertone of 'loss' that movies/novels
have. It isn't a "Man, I'm not actually a space pilot in the year 3000"
feeling, or a "I'll never be able to experience that world again" feeling,
it's more of a visceral disassociation from the real world, as though my
senses don't feel like they can quite trust the inputs they're receiving
anymore.

------
anotherarray
This is interestingly related to two psychiatric conditions named
derealization and depersonalization:

[http://www.calmclinic.com/anxiety/symptoms/derealization](http://www.calmclinic.com/anxiety/symptoms/derealization)

A friend that suffers from the condition could never really explain what it
felt like. Then, he tried VR for the first time.

------
NikolaeVarius
I don't understand. You don't even need to be using VR to experience things
like this.

It's a standard brain/body signal interpretation issue that is already the
subject of alot of study.

For example, the experiment where people seeing a fake arm in place of their
real arm feeling whatever the fake arm "should" feel.

Hell according to the wiki, it even lists a specific VR case study from 2010
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_transfer_illusion#cite_no...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_transfer_illusion#cite_note-
slater2010-3)

------
duckingtest
I like depersonalization. Used to get it relatively often as a kid and teen,
sadly very rarely now. Guess I'm going to buy a vr!

It's like playing a rpg with 'your' body as an avatar. Which means there's
(almost) nothing left except pure will. Very useful, can be used to make a
character do things it wouldn't normally do and/or become much more efficient.
Everything seems inherently pointless, may as well go with inertia of old
goals.

That's how I imagine the first transhumans to think, only with more than one
body and hopefully truly independent (ie. mind uploading, distributed
computing or something similar).

~~~
mattbettinson
Weird you enjoy it. Depersonalization was a hellish experience for me.

~~~
duckingtest
Could you elaborate what was hellish about it?

~~~
mattbettinson
Imagine feeling like you're in a video game and can't step out of the
unreality of existence. Everything that felt full feels distant, like you're
watching someone else. I hated every moment of it, I'm very glad it's over.

------
pmyjavec
I had my first experience with VR yesterday, maybe I'm differenent but I
actually found it kind of boring, at first it was scary and exciting, but
after about 10 minutes I just got sick of killing zombies and flying through
the air. The fact it was a simulation was just too obvious for me. This can
obviously change as the technology get's better but that's just how I felt. It
was no doubt a cool / new experience but it felt like a gimimck.

I did question reality a little bit on the way home etc, but that would surely
be normal? I do remember feeling great taking off the goggles and thinking to
myself how good it is to actually be alive and walking on the earth. I've
heard others say the real world felt boring to them, but I felt the opposite.

If I felt dread about anything, it was seeing my friends son running around
the room while his playmate sat there watching him for hours on end and vice-
versa. I felt a little sad that's how some kids are now spending holiday time
together. I guess they're probably having fun but it did seem a little anti-
social and unhealthy. Infact, I thought about it a lot today.

------
nsomaru
For those interested in the nature of Reality and existence itself, and the
possibility that our experience may in some way be illusory or "VR like,"
please allow me to suggest the Vedanta Treatise by A. Parthasarathy[0].

If you're going that route, read the last section of the book first and then
come back to the first two sections (:

Edit: interestingly, it seems the Wachowski brothers (sisters?) were inspired
by the Vedanta (Upanishads), mantras of which may be heard chanted during key
scenes such as the fight between Neo and Smith. Of course the grandeur of the
philosophy in the Upanishads does not need the validation of a pop culture
movie, but it's an interesting reference.

[0]
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/9381094160/ref=pd_aw_sim_sbs_...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/9381094160/ref=pd_aw_sim_sbs_14_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YW2A40F3J3PSEPR6N780)

------
partiallypro
I would argue that movies can do this. I often walk out of a movie and the
world outside seems surreal. With VR though, I'm so drawn out of it, rather
than into it (like a film) that it more feels like I'm just playing with a
toy. VR tech, at least to my eyes is just not there enough to draw me in. I
can see the pixels and there's nothing interesting and non-gimmicky in the
sphere.

------
tluyben2
I have had these feelings since I touched computers in the 80s and more so
when 3d ish stuff started to become out in the 90s. I would walk to university
with my best friend and we would try to describe the world in the form of 3d
primitives with 'effects' (did not know shaders back then). Since I had the
Oculus and recently the PSVR, we (that same friend recently moved to the tiny
mountain village as I, 2500km from our home town) can see that soon (for many
already, but some people are more sensitive to it than others, like said, I
never even needed VR or fancy graphics to feel reality while playing) brains
will find it impossible to find the difference between that and reality.
Playing simple games on psvr for more than a few minutes, for me, is real; I
can feel movement, I get scared of dropping of cliffs; in rush of blood, my
brain adds wind and smell even. And I am not the only one; on my birthday a
few days ago, I had complete computer illiterate people who never played games
try and; one got ill straight away, two said it looked fake, but at least 4
ask how it was possible to feel movement and wind while sitting in a chair or
feel like you might drop of an edge or feel real and actual dread while
getting pulled deeper into the experience. That makes me see we are finally
there (sure, if you are a gamesgeek you complain about framerate and
resolution but that will improve rapidly now that there is money in it) and I
know now what my next company is going to do.

Edit; I also do see the kind of sadness some people describe after
lsd/shrooms; the real world disappoints. It is literally going from something
like Disneyworld straight to your own boring appartment the second you take
off the helmet. Hell, new rides in theme parks are infested with VR; if you
can have one of those robot chairs in your livingroom you actually _have_ a
modern themepark at home.

------
gallerdude
I love how Cyberpunk our world is becoming.

~~~
jbpetersen
Ditto

------
throwaway713
I wonder if the more concrete and down to earth someone is, the more drastic
this "non-reality" sensation feels.

Despite all of its flaws, I wonder if S-types in the MBTI classification
system would have a harder time than N-types; i.e., would an ISTJ feel weirder
after being in VR than an INTJ?

------
carlmcqueen
A quick google search[1] about the movie Avatar showed in 2010 people couldn't
go see Avatar without being unhappy with the world they had to live in here.

Surprised this article gets a new flavor every year about what people feel
they wish they had.

[1] Mine was 'people experiencing loss after watching avatar'

~~~
newswriter99
I remember reading about that. James Cameron's reply was something along the
lines of "go walk in a forest" as though city people and urbanites have access
to the beauty of real nature anymore.

I mean, don't get me wrong there's all kinds of beauty to appreciate in a
downtown metropolis. It just won't be raw.

~~~
linkregister
What metros in the U.S. don't offer the opportunity to go to a forest?

SF: Muir Woods (available by bus), a dozen other forests by car.

NYC: Liberty State park, Jersey City.

Miami: Everglades, a 30 minute drive from Miami Beach in no traffic

DC: Rock Creek Park

Dallas: Roosevelt Park

------
LastZactionHero
I haven't used VR for long enough to have sadness, but a 15 minutes is enough
for me to have a very subtle, vague confusion about what I can manipulate in
real life.

But I guess was a little disappointed that I had to drive home, since I flew
home from space in Google Earth a few minutes prior.

------
sprafa
I mentioned this to John Carmack over twitter once. He ignored me, I was an
early dk2 owner and was close to having panic attacks in the beggining. I
later learned that it had partially triggered PTSD in me (it came from another
cause entirely, a traumatic event in my past) and it took me months to get
over it. This is all entirely down to personal subjective experience, but it
was strange to see back then how I couldn't get any attention on the issue.
I've met a few people who have had strong negative reactions of anxiety and
dread after experiencing VR.

------
aigeek
Denying something does not make it not real.

What's not real is our perception of reality - the mental model. VR only helps
us realize that this is the case because it completely fucks with that model.

Now, the reality that we have an inaccurate model of is, imho, actually there,
so there no need to worry - the problem is with you not with the reality (is
that comforting?).

Anyhow, I really don't want to see VR banned because some people find it hard
to acknowledge bugs in their brains.

------
failrate
I don't think this is isolated to VR. The effects of playing conventional
video games can lead to a similar syndrome (I never drive after playing
driving games for this reason). There's even a psychological experiment where
you can quickly convince someone's brain that a prosthetic is actually their
arm. I assume that this effect is general to any situation where a person
projects their identity into a nonperson.

------
randyrand
I've been in this hangover (vr induced DPDR) for over 5 months now. if you
have any questions, AMA.

Glad to see people are beginning to report on it more.

~~~
tsunamifury
I'd suggest to you to consider that the VR is not the issue. DPDR is often an
anxiety issue, one that you sometimes reach out to other events in your life
to blame.

~~~
randyrand
You are definitely right. I think VR was just one factor.

~~~
tsunamifury
It can pass. It took me almost a year, but it does pass. Take care and take
some time to find peace.

------
e1ghtSpace
I've had the dream-like state happen to me. Right after I tried VR for a bit
longer than 30 minutes it felt like all my senses were dulled. It was very
weird.

~~~
bemmu
I get this when walking out of a movie theater, less so from VR.

------
stimpak
VR is never going to be capable of providing me with anything I actually want.

I don't understand why people care about it. It sounds like Ultima Online, but
with something close to Real Dolls™ maybe.

I guess, just like cosplay and furries, there's a subculture that's ambivalent
enough about their own combination of desperation for stimulus, to give it a
try and find attachment and occupy themselves within this form of media...

