
Apple Agrees to Deal with Ireland Over $15B Unpaid Tax Issue - antr
https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-agrees-deal-with-ireland-over-15-billion-unpaid-tax-issue-1512392552
======
maxxxxx
I always find it interesting the big companies get the opportunity to make a
deal. As a small business you would just go to jail probably. Certainly nobody
would negotiate with you.

~~~
rayiner
The IRS negotiates all the time, as noted below. Moreover, in this case, Apple
paid what Ireland asked. The EU came along and said Apple’s tax deal violated
EU law. People don’t go to jail for doing what the IRS told them (or indeed,
for having a reasonable but ultimately mistaken view of the law). The law has
estoppel provisions that protect parties who rely on the IRS’s representations
with respect to their taxes. (E.g. where they say a certain thing is okay then
hangs their mind.) Plus, the IRS is a litigant like anyone else. If they think
they might not win on their legal interpretation in tax court, they’ll settle
to mitigate the risk.

~~~
amorphid
Earlier this year I was trying to reach the IRS, and couldn't get through via
phone after N attempts with no email options. I called my congressperson,
complained, and got it resolved through an aide in my congressperson's office
with a couple easy phone calls and email. It was super nice. I highly
recommend.

When asking for help:

\- be specific about the problem

\- say you've made a good faith effort to resolve the matter on your own
(keeping a log of calls made recommended)

\- complain about being a person trying to give money to the IRS, and you
shouldn't be having this problem

\- be nice when talking to the congressperson's aide who tries to help you

\- don't feel like your burdening the congressperson's aide by working with
them directly, as resolving your complaint/issue is exactly the reason they
exist, and you're helping them feel good about serving, because that's exactly
what their doing

\- when the matter is resolved, thank them directly

\- for future matters regarding "call your congressperson to say X" campaigns,
you now have a direct line to the congressperson's office (don't abuse it)

~~~
make3
"don't feel like your burdening the congressperson's aide by working with them
directly, as resolving your complaint/issue is exactly the reason they exist"

surely it's why their job exists, not them selves? :D that would be a weird
answer to have to your existential questions, like the butter passing robot in
Rick and Morty

------
Isamu
All this says is the money will be placed in an escrow account while Apple and
Ireland both appeal the decision, which they both seem confident to prevail
eventually.

They haven't conceded anything yet. The ball is still in play.

[edit] I'm not advocating for either Apple or Ireland, just making a factual
comment. I think corporations should pay a fair tax.

------
gaius
I suspect the deal is "we'll help you evade the taxes you should be paying
other countries if you give us a slice"

~~~
davweb
That's more or less what was already happening; which is why the EU told the
Irish government they had to stop giving Apple a preferential tax rate
unavailable to other companies. Ireland didn't want to collect this money.

------
bob_theslob646
>BRUSSELS—Ireland will begin collecting €13 billion ($15.46 billion) in back
taxes from Apple Inc. as soon as early next year after both sides agreed to
the terms of an escrow fund for the money, Ireland’s finance chief said
Monday.

That's a lot of money.

~~~
ProAm
Not for Apple.

~~~
vidar
13bill is always a lot of money

~~~
ProAm
It was really never their money to begin with?

~~~
DigitalJack
What kind of nonsense is this? Of course the money was apple's to begin with,
otherwise what was being taxed?

~~~
ProAm
That was my point that it should have been paid as taxes in the past. Instead
of robbing the host country and keeping it hostage.

~~~
valuearb
Apple didn't rob anyone. They had $200B in cash they couldn't deposit in US
banks, or they'd be subject to $80B+ in taxes. So Ireland offered to let them
deposit those funds in Irish banks for a near zero tax rate, because it was a
huge windfall for Ireland and cost them nothing.

If ireland hadn't offered, dozens of other countries would have. The EU is
being scummy trying to undo a legit deal after the fact instead of ruling it
can't continue in the future.

~~~
Illotus
Except it is not a legit deal, because Ireland isn't offering it to all
companies.

~~~
sjwright
It's surprising that Ireland couldn't simply say everyone (including Apple)
pays the headline rate for the first billion in deposits, and 0% for every
billion thereafter. That's a level playing field. And the outcome is much the
same.

------
dirkdk
Finally! I love Apple but taxes should be paid. There is a difference between
legal and ethical and US companies should begin to understand that. So
hopefully others will follow suit.

~~~
malux85
I used to think this -- but then I heard the argument that if Apple was to
behave "ethically" and pay the taxes that technically the law requires that
they dont, then the shareholders can sue the company for not acting in their
best interest.

Even if the above isn't true (not a lawyer) we cannot rely on ethics alone, it
will have to be enforced by law, otherwise nobody will do it

~~~
vesinisa
> if Apple was to behave "ethically" and pay the taxes that technically the
> law requires that they dont, then the shareholders can sue the company

Well yes, but you know there's a shade of gray between engaging in complex,
aggressive tax planning schemes and handing out unsolicited donations to the
IRS.

A company's board is perfectly within its mandate to say it pays tax for its
profits where it is incorporated, when the profits are made (and not delaying
foreign profits in a tax havens). Because this is the very normal thing that
almost all normal corporations do. The board is just as well within its
mandate to say they do it for PR reasons to demonstrate corporate social
responsibility.

For example, Nokia during its heyday happily paid a fair share of its taxes in
Finland, eventhough they definitely had access and capability for all the tax
dodging schemes in the world.

~~~
pembrook
You must admit the irony in that Nokia example...

If Nokia had instead gone to the lengths Apple does to cut taxes and invested
that money back in the company they might still be thriving as an independent
entity today...ultimately generating far more benefit for the Finnish economy
over the long run than being a shrinking Microsoft division.

~~~
vesinisa
I admit to the irony, but sadly they could have never saved enough profits to
turn around the company. They could have at best delayed the inevitable
further down the road..

------
MarkMc
If Apple is forced to pay a big chunk of tax in the EU, why wouldn't they spin
off their EU sales operations as a completely separate independent company?
Apple US (or Apple Cayman Islands) could then sell iPhones to Apple EU and
demand a wholesale price very close to the retail price. Apple EU would
therefore make very little profit and pay very little EU tax.

~~~
tomcorrigan
That's called transfer pricing and is essentially illegal in almost every
jurisdiction. There are of course plenty of loopholes and ways around it and
large companies such as Apple spend a fortune with the big 4 accounting firms
to take advantage of every such loophole.

~~~
MarkMc
Would transfer pricing still be an issue if Apple EU was a completely separate
company?

------
hackbinary
Wait, wasn't it the EU who took Apple to court over a special tax deal for
Apple in Ireland?

[https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/30/apple-
pay-b...](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/30/apple-pay-back-
taxes-eu-ruling-ireland-state-aid)

~~~
gsnedders
No. The European Commission ruled that Ireland gave preferential rates to
Apple (and I believe this will go to the European Court of Justice, where the
case will, I believe, be the EC v. Ireland; Apple aren't directly a party of
the case).

------
downandout
Paywall bypass:

[https://m.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com...](https://m.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fapple-
agrees-deal-with-ireland-over-15-billion-unpaid-tax-issue-1512392552)

------
romanovcode
Just to clear things up here: Ireland does not want the money, they much
rather have this special deal with Apple, it's EU who is forcing Apple to pay
and forcing Ireland to stop having special deals with companies.

------
lifeisstillgood
so is this an opportunity for collective action. let's say some one owes 100
million in taxes, and can negotiate that down to 50 mil. does that mean i can
get 1-2000 of "normal" folks and if we hang together we can get a 50 % rebate
?

(the hang together reference being most apt)

------
amenod
Paywalled, can someone share another link?

EDIT: searched for title and another link worked for me:
[http://www.cetusnews.com/tech/Apple-Agrees-Deal-With-
Ireland...](http://www.cetusnews.com/tech/Apple-Agrees-Deal-With-Ireland-
Over-%2415-Billion-Unpaid-Tax-Issue.HJbHuppMWG.html)

~~~
neurotech1
Non-Paywall version: [http://archive.is/N7JvW](http://archive.is/N7JvW)

------
gigatexal
how about not linking to a paywalled article?

[https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/apple-
agrees-...](https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/apple-agrees-to-
start-paying-13bn-tax-bill-early-2018-a-year-after-deadline-36377528.html)

------
LeoJiWoo
So when are they going to pay taxes in the united states ?

Its time the global community makes tax havens illegal.

~~~
dublinben
The United States is the largest tax haven in the world, so don't count on it.

~~~
blennon
Can you elaborate on this?

~~~
bob_theslob646
He is bs'ing you. Companies don't incorporate in United States they are
incorporating tax havens across the world ( everywhere but the United States)

~~~
adventured
It's based on this fraudulent premise that makes its rounds as an empty
soundbyte (when back in reality, the US has the second highest effective
corporate income tax rate in the OECD). The setup is that Delaware is being
used as an information cloak (while there's zero evidence the US is actually
being used as a real tax-evasion haven of any sort).

This story explains the foundation of the soundbyte:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/04/05/how-t...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/04/05/how-
the-u-s-became-one-of-the-worlds-biggest-tax-havens/)

~~~
tribaal
Oh, it's a fraudulent premise and an empty soundbyte?

It seems like you're quoting an article in the washington post, and similar
articles from similarly reputable sources point it out (see
[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/business/how-delaware-
thri...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/business/how-delaware-thrives-as-a-
corporate-tax-haven.html) for example).

Just saying, it's a pretty convincing soundbyte that happens to cite its
(verifiable) claims.

~~~
adventured
Yeah, it's an empty claim, which is why neither the NY Times nor the
Washington Post provides any actual evidence that there's a tax haven
occurring onshore in the US. The sole premise they float, is about information
cloaking, and then they call it a tax haven arrangement without backing that
up.

Where's the hundreds of billions or trillions of dollars in tax haven'd
capital to support their claims? They don't provide so much as a shred of
evidence such a thing exists. It doesn't exist, because the US isn't a tax
haven. The IRS is extraordinarily aggressive about such things and has very
far reaching powers to hammer entities that attempt to evade taxes in any
manner inside the US.

The articles use hilariously absurd things like that states are competing over
lowering the cost of establishing LLCs, as evidence. Oh golly gee, that
verifies the US as the world's largest tax haven no doubt.

Like this amusing quote: "In some places [in the U.S.], it’s easier to
incorporate a company than it is to get a library card"

Oh man, the Washington Post really nailed it there, world's largest tax haven
status confirmed.

Just look at the language they use throughout, it's vapid, unsupported, vague,
etc. They constantly hint, use suggestive language, proclaim, and never
deliver anything real. Such as:

"Too often, however, shell companies are used as a vehicle for criminal
activity"

Oh, too often, well that's really spot on. Then they proceed to not actually
support the "too often" part in any manner. The NY Times and Washington Post
articles are filled with that crap.

~~~
tribaal
Well, from my point of view, I can either:

\- Choose to think you are right, dear random HN commenter

\- Choose to think the corpus of papers and articles saying the opposite of
what you claim is in fact right
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_as_a_tax_haven#R...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_as_a_tax_haven#References)
\- I'm not quoting wikipedia, this is a link to sources)

Guess what? :)

EDIT: Please, by all means, do produce articles from reputable sources that
support your claim that the US is not an enormous corporate tax heaven! I
would be very interested to educate myself on the subject with differing
opinions from experts such as investigative journalists or economists,
bankers, or tax lawyers.

I just don't believe random HN commenters on face value :)

TL;DR: [citation needed]

~~~
adventured
I appreciate that my pointing out the extremely mediocre reporting by the NY
Times and Washington Post on this matter has swayed you to such a degree.

------
znpy
I was unable to read the article because of a paywall. Can we please make it a
policy not to allow paywalled content?

------
known
Tax Apple revenues, not profits.

------
abritinthebay
Reminder: both Apple AND Ireland agree that they don't actually owe any tax.

So it's not that Apple didn't pay tax to Ireland - it's that they were
_specifically_ contracted to pay a certain rate and the EU disagrees.

So the headline is _incredibly_ misleading.

------
ancorevard
Apple is the largest taxpayer in the world.

I see a lot of misinformation in the comments section here.

This may help them. [https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/11/the-facts-about-
apple...](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/11/the-facts-about-apple-tax-
payments/)

~~~
dmach
If you pay the most tax you have implicitly paid the required amount of tax is
not a good argument.

You can could response to those comments so they can be discussed or just
declare them fake news if that's how you feel.

Nothing in that link addresses the EU ruling or this deal.

~~~
valuearb
Ok, Apple pays the most taxes of any company in the world, and it also pays
all the taxes it's legally obligated to pay.

And in the case of the Irish deal, it hugely benefited Ireland, much more than
Apple.

