
Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows - longzheng
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20130115/y-combinator-is-funding-the-future-of-spam-in-windows-drive-by-crapware-installers/
======
jbk
I can speak quite a bit about this "industry": We (VLC) receive 1 of those
offers per day.

They are liars, shady business, IP violators and are downright dangerous.

They have all those great offers for you, but they refuse to give any details
as soon as you ask any question. More than half of them are "the biggest in
the world" (sic). They lie about download numbers, about download size, about
number of software actually installed and about their connexions. They even
lie on the actual payback price.

If you refuse, they build special websites, copying yours, with your IP and
trademark and register adwords with your name, in every way possible.

They also resell their solutions/websites to other people, using "Affiliate
networks", so that once you take one down, 20 appear. And the guy who you took
down had no idea who you were or what the software was...

They also have deals with download.com/softopedia/softonic to change/rewrap
your installer, without your agreement, often violating your license; or they
give back money to those websites, so they are ranked higher than normal other
downloads.

And of course, open source software are never respected.

I believe OP is very polite: There are no good reasons to not shame them
publicly.

~~~
api
A lot of people these days are bashing Apple and Google for creating walled
gardens with their app stores, but this is really the primary reason such
walled gardens have taken off. They offer a mostly crapware-free experience.

If Linux on the desktop were to get popular, I'd hate to imagine what might
happen to the open source Fedora and Debian/Ubuntu repositories.

~~~
notahacker
If desktop Linux was widely requested by the general public, PC vendors and
download sites would heavily promote custom Linux builds complete with pre-
installed crapware, dubious defaults and quite possibly broken upgrade paths
and most consumers would never know the difference. They'd probably have their
own whored-out repositories too.

~~~
joe_the_user
But Linux will never be in heavy demand _as a brand_. No great number of
people will ever want to have Linux for the hell of it. The only way Linux
could experience an upsurge in popularity would be through a mass increase in
consumers' awareness of crapware and similar phenomena. And that could thus
only be a small upsurge.

~~~
csense
> The only way Linux could experience an upsurge in popularity would be
> through a mass increase in consumers' awareness

This is definitely not true. The following scenario seems to be quite
possible: Due to the various problems of Windows 8, developers massively
revolt and most applications are either written to older API's, or use cross-
platform environments like C#, Python or Java. This essentially changes the
Windows API from a moving target to a stationary target; as a result, Wine
catches up -- it reaches near-100% app compatibility, perhaps with the aid of
a donation from a philanthropist, Google, or some other player. OEM's
recognize the cost savings possible from avoiding the Microsoft tax, and with
good software compatibility now possible, they start selling discount models
with Linux instead. Microsoft stops issuing new licenses for Windows less than
8 to try to pressure developers to port their stuff to Windows 8 by forcing
customers to upgrade. But the move is too little, too late: The customers
revolt, and since the alternative is already out of the bottle, people jump
ship en masse due to lower prices and Windows 8's shortcomings.

Is this a particularly likely scenario? No. But it seems plausible, and it's
not due to crapware, or consumer awareness about anything other than price
tags.

------
patio11
So when earlier it was mentioned, I assumed "They have to have a different
angle on this; they're a YC company." And seeing a strong thread title and no
evidence for it other than "The industry they're in is ridiculously seedy", I
thought maybe HN was in rush to judgement mode.

So I thought I'd try, you know, installing something.

Make your own call:

[http://images1.bingocardcreator.com/blog-images/hn/its-
not-a...](http://images1.bingocardcreator.com/blog-images/hn/its-not-a-
witchhunt-if-they-are-actually-witches.png)

~~~
kvnn
"They have to have a different angle on this; they're a YC company."

Why do you think they would have a different angle if they are a YC company?

~~~
swies
<http://www.paulgraham.com/good.html>

~~~
prodigal_erik
That rings kind of hollow after Blecharczyk ("among the nicest of all the
people we've funded") was outed as an unrepentant habitual spammer. YC is
demonstrably not immune to scumbags, which is not to say that other angels and
VCs do better.

~~~
JoachimSchipper
(For those who'd have to look it up: this refers to AirBnb.)

------
swies
Y Combinator also funded our solution to crapware.

<http://ninite.com>

Basically we automate multiple installers and decline toolbars just like you
would.

Users range from the nontechnical to NASA. We even have a huge blind user base
because these installers are frequently hell to navigate with a screenreader.

We make money selling a Pro version with extra features to businesses and
school IT departments. It works well and aligns us nicely with our users'
interests.

~~~
watty
Ninite is great and has saved me time in the past. What exactly does this have
to do with the article? Are you implying that since Y Combinator funded non-
junk applications that it's okay to now fund junk applications?

~~~
brk
I think he was saying it was kind of a humorous contrast with YC essentially
funding companies that compete in a way. The nerdy conclusion of this
discussion would lead to a battle of the two platforms, one trying to install
spam-ware and the other trying to prevent it...

~~~
fennecfoxen
and both making _MILLIONS_! It's like some shadowy movie villian / arms dealer
guy with a conspiracy to sell weapons to both sides!

~~~
ameen
Or like the Government of United States, which supplies arms to both the
Government and the Rebels.

~~~
rdl
In places like Afghanistan, we actually put our own troops there, pay for PMCs
and local national forces, _and_ fund the enemy (Taliban, not AQ) via our
supply contracts. That's even worse than just selling guns to everyone; we pay
them both and then also sell them guns.

~~~
alttab
Its almost like there is a different motive than defeating the "enemy"...

------
pg
We're investigating. It will take at least a couple days, because we'll need
to meet with the founders in person.

FWIW, the install window Patrick overlaid on top of InstallMonetizer's site in
that screenshot is not actually InstallMonetizer.

~~~
205guy
But the Babylon installer is from one of IM's advertizers, so it is possibly
indicative of the types of pages that IM inserts in other installers. If
nothing else, the poor reputation of Babylon is indicative of the types of
software that IM wants to co-install.

In the end, we don't have much information about what IM adds to installers--I
suppose they don't want it too well known. We'd need to find an app that uses
their installer to get a screenshot of it. Their website does give us some
clues: one image shows an offer that is made to look like a license agreement,
thus duping people into clicking Agree. Another clue is how they repeat that
they "manage all optimization and conversion to ensure highest earnings,"
which I take to mean their wording and choices are designed to trick people
into installing items they didn't ask for.

PS: installmonetizer.com website is down for now

~~~
ScottWhigham
It is back up as of now: <http://installmonetizer.com/>

------
kybernetyk
The crapware situation on Windows is horrible. I'm a Mac/Linux user but from
time to time I have to power up my Windows VM.

A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM.
Having left Windows around 2005 I figured that typing "Partition Magic Win XP
download" in Google would be helpful.

I got a handful of "reputable" download sources like CNet and the like. I went
there and was bombarded by 20 (dramatization) different download buttons. I
clicked the one that seemed most promising and somehow ended with a new Zip-
Archiver installed ...

So I went back and found the Partition Magic installer. It was an installer
with 'added value' that asked me three times to install some toolbar crap. I
ended up with one of those toolbars installed because unchecking the box and
clicking on 'next' obviously is not enough. You have to click the decline
button instead of next.

Now I would consider myself computer literate and yet still I didn't manage to
install a simple utility without littering my system with crapware. I can only
imagine what hell the internet must be like to inexperienced (read: normal
people) Windows users.

~~~
jiggy2011
Agreed, a lot of the reasons that non technical users dislike Windows seem to
be the result of these. It really takes control out of the users hands.

We can see the origins of this becoming a problem on Ubuntu with Canonical
adding stuff like the Amazon search and seemingly having no issue with
bundleware as a means of monetisation.

On the other hand I'm surprised this isn't more of an issue on the Mac, since
Mac (especially older versions) will allow installation of software from
random sources which could include bundleware.

Is there something about OS X that makes bundleware more difficult to develop
or is it just easier to monetise an OS X app without bundleware?

~~~
h2s
I can see the future of apt-get on Ubuntu now...

    
    
        $ sudo apt-get install emacs
        After this operation, 86.3 MB of additional disk
        space will be used and AVG Toolbar Pro! GOLD EDITION
        will be installed to Chromium
        Do you want to continue [Y/n]?

~~~
dkuntz2
If that happens, all someone needs to do is repackage Debian's version of
aptitude for Ubuntu.

Or an older version from Ubuntu.

Really, this is a non-issue on Linux, because either 1) someone will just
"fix" it an release their alternative, or 2) everyone will just stop using the
offender.

~~~
jiggy2011
Depends on what type of software you are talking about. For copyright
protected proprietary software (which Canonical want people to develop for
their OS) there may be legal protections which prevent it from being rebundled
outside of torrent sites (which have their own risks).

#2 assumes a savvy enough userbase.

~~~
dkuntz2
Legal protections against rebundling aptitude? Something released under the
GPL? Which means everyone has all of the ability to easily change the sucker.

If you're packaging something as a deb, you _can_ potentially bundle other
things, but at the same time, because a deb is a glorified tar.gz, someone can
just provide information on how to get rid of the offending thing.

Or, if you're using Arch, the AUR maintainer just adjusts the PKGBUILD to do
it for you.

It's not particularly hard.

And sure, having people install a different package manager requires a savvy
enough userbase, to an extent. If they can copy and paste a couple commands
into the terminal, they can change it (wget [somefile] && dpkg -i [somefile]).
How hard.

~~~
jiggy2011
I don't mean aptitude itself.

I mean , if you are bundling your own software for Ubuntu you get to
distribute it however you like. If somebody else decides to redistribute it
minus the crapware then you can potentially sue them.

So you can say "the only legal way to get my software is to download this file
which is bundled with InstallMonetizerForUbuntu".

Whether it is bundled as a .tar.gz or a .deb and whether it comes from a
random website or the Ubuntu software store is largely irrelevant to this
point.

Sure, people will create programs and instructions on how to get the crapware
off your system but this is basically the same state as now exists for Windows
with various "cleaner" programs, some of which install even more shit.

~~~
dkuntz2
I've said nothing about distribution. Only packaging. And specifically giving
people instructions on how to do it themselves. Which isn't illegal. Nor is it
particularly endorsing something illegal.

> So you can say "the only legal way to get my software is to download this
> file which is bundled with InstallMonetizerForUbuntu".

But, once I have that downloaded, I don't have to go straight to installation.
I can remove files and change the install script. Sure, you can give me a
binary file, but the only binary files I've ever received are after I've paid
for something, and I've never found paid software bundled with crapware, even
on Windows.

I can _still_ write a script that would get rid of the bundled things provided
you already have the packaged file, and distribute that script to anyone who
wants it.

And while yes, people will create decrapifyers, I'm talking about preventative
measures (modifying the installer).

~~~
jiggy2011
Well sure, expert users can certainly reverse engineer installer scripts and
some intermediate users might be diligent enough to go doing research before
they install each program.

Not a solution that scales very well though, if it did we wouldn't have the
problem we do on Windows at the moment.

------
joering2
Why not? PG is about to make killing on AirBnB and co-founder is a well-known
spammer from top-100 FBI list [1] that used our tax money to send his spam,
and AirBnB been known for spam practices contacting people from Craigslist [2]
to crank-start their startup with empty database.

Further, AFAIK his SocialCam is worth tons of money as well, mostly thanks to
Facebook overspamming practices [3]

Truly surprised PG is not full time in spam business; he would make triple
killing! :)

HN moderators: its OK to downvote if the truth feels uncomfortable to you.

EDIT: Since this is getting strongly upvoted; here are the links:

[1] [http://gawker.com/5853754/the-seedy-spammy-past-of-
airbnbs-c...](http://gawker.com/5853754/the-seedy-spammy-past-of-airbnbs-
co+founder)

[2] [http://www.tnooz.com/2011/06/01/news/airbnb-admits-rogue-
sal...](http://www.tnooz.com/2011/06/01/news/airbnb-admits-rogue-sales-team-
used-craigslist-for-stealthy-property-drive/)

[3] <http://www.pcmike.com/what-im-thinkin/beware-of-socialcam>

~~~
jiggy2011
Ironically enough, IIRC PG was one of pioneers of spam filtering.

~~~
Paul_S
And Peter Detkin coined the term patent troll and now runs a company that's
one of the worlds biggest patent trolls.

Irony? Or just people being willing to do anything for money. There are worse
motivations.

~~~
dexterchief
There emphatically is not a worse motivation that being willing to do anything
for money. Do something to ensure there is a little less tragedy in the
commons. Please.

~~~
Paul_S
Sorry, this is off-topic but surely hatred is much worse a motivation than
anything.

Honestly, I'm not advocating money as a good motivator. I go to work and I buy
things and I'm happy with capitalism but really, I just spent the last few
months working on something I like with absolutely no money in it (and it's
GPLed). Money is just there so I can get by and enjoy the really fun things.
Just realised how much of a hippy I must sound, but it's true.

~~~
jiggy2011
If you are motivated by hate and have money, you can pay people who are
motivated by money to do your hating for you.

------
longzheng
My friend just found this gem in their privacy policy

“We gather personally identifiable and may include information regarding your
geo-location, ip address, operating system, language setting and information
regarding whether recommended advertiser software has been accepted,
downloaded, installed and any reason for failure installing. None of his
information is personally identifiable.”

------
darklajid
That's the lowest possible way to make money: Sneaking by and behind the back
of your users.

If you feel you're entitled to more money, make me pay more for your product.
Ask me to donate. Strip away features unless I go 'pro'.

But never ever install crap that isn't even related to your product.

Rule of thumb: If you wouldn't install that software on your families (like,
the wider network - parents, siblings, grandparents) machines while supporting
them, don't install it on MY machine either.

~~~
nonamegiven
"If you wouldn't install that software on your families (like, the wider
network - parents, siblings, grandparents) machines"

Except those people probably would do that.

------
jgmmo
As a malware researcher, and the person who writes anti-virus definitions, I
can proudly say that I wrote some rules to deal with Adware.InstallMonetizer
just yesterday. Most other vendors seem to be detecting it as well.

------
Aardwolf
This is the reason why I don't understand that people say that Linux is for
"technical" users while Windows is for regular consumers.

In Linux it's easier to install something that in Windows.

E.g. to install a CD to MP3 rip program, in Archlinux all you do is:

    
    
      # Search for some mp3 ripper program
      pacman -Ss mp3 | grep rip
      # Install one of them from the list that looked ok from the description
      pacman -S ripperx
    

In Windows, the steps are:

    
    
      Search the internet for rip mp3
      Go through hundreds of spammy results
      Try to identify one that isn't crapware
      Download its installer
      Run its installer
      Be careful at every page of the installer that it isn't installing crap
    

How can they say Linux is harder than Windows? I don't get it.

~~~
amirmc
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic (but I'll assume you're not).

From my point of view, your comment describes _exactly_ why Windows is easier.
In the Linux example you're using the command line with commands folks don't
know about ('pacman', 'grep') with flags they'd have to read about ('-S' and
"How do you make that vertical line thing?"). Of course they'd also have to
understand the output of those commands.

The Windows example is largely point and click (using tools people are already
familiar with, e.g google, web-browsers etc)

~~~
jiggy2011
To be fair, almost every modern Linux distro does provide some GUI for package
management. In ubuntu you can either search the software store and click
"Install" or download a .deb, double click it and click "Install".

It's just that experienced users tend to find the command line versions
quicker and easier.

------
paulsutter
These guys must be living in fear of Wire Fraud and Computer Fraud charges.

I'm less than half kidding. This is real destructive harm, so it's closer to
the intent of the laws. The incredible churn rate is a pretty clear indication
that end users dont want the software being installed. And here we have
hundreds of thousands of systems compromised.

Selective enforcement of draconian laws is scary, really.

------
Matsta
Ok, I think one thing I don't think people fully understand is how these
companies actually make their money back.

Now in the past they will either try to sell you something or get you to fill
in a CPA offer. Now 2012 has hit the IM/Internet Marketing industry hard
mainly because people aren't spending money as much as they used to. Like I
mentioned in another comment, basically the whole CPA industry is going belly
up and will continue to do so in 2013.

So how do these guys make money? Well I know the biggest craze is to make
toolbars that actually control your Facebook/Twitter/Email accounts. I've
already seen one made for chrome and the guy had put a whosamungus tracking
code in there that had over 10k people online at the time I checked it.

The toolbar was capable of sending mass private messages, posting on your wall
and inviting all your friends to events on Facebook. And the problem is, it's
pretty tough for Facebook to block this since it looks legitimate as the
actions are directly coming from the browser and not a shady 3rd party site.

Another tactic which is more common is to replace websites advertising code
with their own. This means replacing Adsense ID's or completely changing the
banner code all together. This is what Kim Dotcom will be doing when he
launches his new Mega site this week.

They also alter Google results so they can either promote their own sites or
sell traffic to advertisers for profit.

So to think they are 'only' tracking your IP/Mac address, think again...

~~~
simias
Forgive me for asking a possibly stupid question, but google is failing me:
what is a "CPA offer"?

~~~
SyneRyder
CPA = "Cost Per Action". Think of Cost Per Click advertising, except that
instead of the publisher being paid when someone clicks on the ad, they're
paid when the user takes a specific action (eg installing software, signing up
for a newsletter, subscribing to a magazine etc).

~~~
simias
Ah, it's clearer that way! Thank you and jacquesm.

------
edandersen
PG: care to comment? Were you involved in this investment decision?

~~~
rdl
One thing to keep in mind is that YC funds groups. If a team is funded to do
one thing, then pivots to doing something else later, it's not like YC is
going to de-fund you. (I don't know anything about this specific company)

~~~
edandersen
Surely that can be abused? What could this group have possibly pivoted from?
<http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php>

Plus there are photos of them at YC with their company logo above - they
clearly did not pivot.

~~~
rdl
I actually think there's a lot of legitimate room in the "help developers make
money" space. There are also a lot of ways to do it as a scam. I don't know
the specifics of this company at all. If they pitched to YC as "we're building
something to help developers make money, which is a problem due to ...",
that's potentially legitimate. Desktop ads are clearly ok; PPI generally not
ok.

I think you could even do PPI in a decent way. e.g. if I were installing a
developer tool and got a "get 3 months of free developer
VPN/backup/design/whatever service" offer as well via "click here to install",
I wouldn't feel cheated or scammed.

Toolbars and AV clearly are generally scams, but there are businesses which
involve signup or client software installation which have high enough LTV to
justify this channel.

I think a YC and silicon valley funded company who was doing this kind of
thing would be a lot more likely to go the legit route than someone who came
from the spam world.

I'm definitely more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt as another
YC person, but mostly because I have no idea if they're good or bad based on
what I've seen from them.

------
herf
This is also why the "unbundling" of Windows turned out so badly for
consumers. Not having a decent mail app or video/photos app by default (like
the Mac) means people have to navigate this crap to get the most basic things
done.

We (f.lux) have a similar experience to VLC: tons of cloned installers and
inbound emails for a free product.

------
brudgers
The past public disparagement of Microsoft's business model and praise of FOSS
and Apple, makes fodder for easy conspiracy theories.

Rather than a conspiracy, however, I suspect it is more likely just a case
where YC doesn't give a fuck about further degrading the Windows ecosystem.

Next time someone complains here on HN about Microsoft's malfeasance in
locking down Windows RT, remind them that they have enterprise customers who
don't want to deal with shit like this.

------
chinmoy
Wow....I thought these kind of companies stay and operate from the darkest
corners of the internet, just like those CPA networks where you get paid to
SPAM the hell out of the internet. Frustrating that these are coming
mainstream and Y Combinator has backed one of them.

~~~
Matsta
Actually you would be surprised. The biggest advertiser in the CPA industry
over the last few years closed their doors a couple of months ago. And now the
EPC (earning's per click) are about 20% of what they used to be, so the
majority of CPA networks are either going broke or shutting down for good. I
imagine that the majority of them will be closing their doors this year as
well which is kind of sad.

As of now, not 1 of my friends promoting CPA offers is making money, they've
either got themselves a 9-5 or just chewing through their savings.

~~~
kami8845
Very interesting. Can you expand on that? I actually got out of the CPA
industry around April 2012, when it stilled seemed to go well (though not as
well as in the days of ringtone offers / acai and so forth)

~~~
Matsta
Well I can say that the biggest CPA advertiser had a call centre which was
there biggest way to earn back the commission they paid us to get us leads.
Also these guys had big budgets, unlike all the other advertisers, so when
there were days when a certain offer would earn more then 100k they would be
happy to pay. I'm guessing the other networks didn't have enough liquid assets
to pay back publishers on time (we would get paid every Tuesday usually). Also
the main network wasn't fussy where the traffic came from, as where every
other network wants organic traffic (which is basically impossible anyway), so
they would usually cut you off as soon as you started sending social media
traffic, email traffic, sms traffic etc.

But I primarily did email submit offers, they would convert as soon as someone
put in their email so we would usually get conversion rates of 30-60% which
was pretty dang good.

But yea acai/ringtone got wiped out when the FTC stepped in over all the
'legitimate' reviews and credit card companies got strict on rebilling (which
was the only reason they made money).

The whole industry is struggling though, most people are now trying to make
money from selling SEO services or reselling Facebook Fans and Youtube Views
(which Google nuked the other day).

------
edandersen
It's even worse, according to <http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php>
one of the "advisors" - Arjun Bedi - works for Microsoft!

Working to destroy his own platform. Classy.

~~~
tanzam75
According to his Linkedin profile, he works for Microsoft Singapore, doing
some "Master Black Belt" six-sigma synergy "Global Process Solutions" MBA-
buzzword bullshit. And only since December 2011.

He's not working on real products.

------
TomGullen
At 30c to $1.50 per install, these software companies are under a lot of
pressure to make their money back and convert users. This would inevitably
lead to some questionable practises which Install Monetizer can claim to be at
arms length from.

Software I accidentally install, or am offered to install always leaves a bit
of a sour taste in my mouth and reflects badly on the software I am originally
trying to install.

------
rrrrtttt
There's a public company in Israel called Babylon whose business model is
giving away a popular translator software in exchange for installing spyware.
They're huge and are planning an American IPO this year. Some people here are
saying that it's all a big stack of cards and investors are going to lose all
their money, but the analysts are actually saying that it's a valid business
model and the company is underpriced. I'm wondering who is right...

How is this business model of spying on your users different from Google's or
Facebook's?

~~~
jordan0day
Active vs. passive, perhaps (although admittedly that distinction has shrunken
substantially).

That is, "in the good old days", facebook or google really only tracked what
you did, _on facebook or google_ , while crapware could track _everything you
did on the computer_.

Now, of course, as more and more of our lives are based around our browsers,
and google and facebook track more of what you do anywhere on the web, not
just on their sites, so I suppose it's not _that different_.

------
joelthelion
I prefer to see it this way: Y combinator is funding the future of the Linux
desktop by encouraging crapware on Windows :)

------
gyardley
These founders need to be very, very careful.

Business-to-business services that are disliked by the public and involve any
type of tracking or analytics aren't just class-action-lawsuit bait, they're
ambitious-prosecutor bait. All they need is enough bad PR, which it looks like
they're in the process of getting, to make the predators aware of the prey.

Judging from reactions here, they're not going to get much community support
when the legal backlash inevitably happens, either.

~~~
joelthelion
Don't worry, ambitious prosecutors are busy enough with innocent activists.

------
alanctgardner2
Likely they got funded because they have a real way to make money! Unlike
whoever offers the next airbnb for dogs.

From an ethical standpoint, better the devil you know? Windows freeware
developers deserve some compensation for their work, and this seems less
scuzzy than other drive-by downloaders. If it became widespread it might break
out of the user-exploitation ghetto and pick up real, actually synergistic
software to intelligently recommend.

~~~
darklajid
No, Windows freeware developers offer their software for free. Their choice.
If they agree that they 'deserve some compensation' for their work, they
should sell it.

~~~
alanctgardner2
Why does Gittip exist then? It's funny that some developers should be
compensated for the positive externalities of their work, but only the ones
you deem appropriate. Working with this company would be choosing to 'sell'
your work in a more accessible way. If you don't like it, don't install the
bundled software and mail the dev a dollar

~~~
darklajid
Oh. Nice. "The ones I deem appropriate".

No, actually I think every developer deserves compensation. But they should
ask for it, set a price. The business model with ad-/crap-/bloatware is
equivalent to these annoying people (I see more and more of them on the
streets) that hand you a rose/card/small ~thing~ right away, shove it in your
face and ask for 2/5/10 bucks after you accepted what was quite obviously a
gift. You see people fall for it all the time.

If the developer wants money for his program, he should ask for money for his
program. Why would you even release 'freeware' if you don't want to give it
away, no strings attached? It's your time, your project. Don't do that, if you
want to earn money.

Erm - and 'working with this company would be choosing to sell your work in a
more accessible way'? Really? More accessible?

If I don't like it (I don't, if that wasn't obvious enough) I remove the
software, tell everyone to ignore that tool (both the software and the guy
behind) and move on.

~~~
alanctgardner2
I think it's cognitive dissonance ( maybe I'm thinking of the wrong phenomenom
) that you 'see more and more of [these people]' every day. It makes this seem
like a big bad trend, when really it's been happening forever and it just
happens to support your point.

Lots of people release ad-supported free software, not because they want to
turn a profit, but because they don't want a net loss. They aren't comfortable
with asking for outright donations, but a small cash flow offsets the costs of
serving the download and docs, and a little forum for users.

If you don't like software with ads, or software that bundles other software,
that's fine. Don't use it. But I think it hurts free (as in beer) software
development as a whole when you demonize any attempt to cover costs like this.

~~~
darklajid
You're mixing things up.

I like software with ads (well, sorta. CAN you like software with ads?). I
don't run AdBlock on all my machines. I have "free" ad-supported Android apps.
Bundling ads in an application is not the same thing as installing utter,
total bullshit.

Your point is still very weak in my books, because you haven't explained in
half a sentence why someone would like to release software as 'free' and still
make money off it. The notion that this certain someone is too shy to ask for
donations is .. weird. Believing that it's a viable alternative to bundle
software that the end user with almost 100% certainty DOES. NOT. WANT. - seems
crazy to me.

So many solutions. Shareware. Donationware. Free/Premium models. Just .. not
releasing a software for free and putting a price tag on it, even if just the
'app' style 99 cents.

Installing crapware, toolbars, switching browser search engines and homepages
etc. is an attempt to cover cost that is absolutely demonic.

~~~
alanctgardner2
I attempted it pretty well in the last post, maybe you missed it.

Free software costs money to host and maintain. If you want to break even, you
need some long-tail income source to cover hosting, etc.

That was a full sentence, happy?

People who release free software are often not hustlers. Hell, if they had
business sense, maybe they'd make it a paid product. If you don't feel
comfortable asking for money in exchange for your software, ads and bundled
installs offer a much lower friction way to cover your costs. Charging 99
cents for a desktop app is ridiculous right now, although maybe the windows
and mac app stores will change that. Either way, collecting a few dollars per
user directly is a huge pain in the ass.

If these companies did what they're supposed to do, it'd be more about
discovery, and less about shoving downloads down your throat. I had this
argument about IVRs yesterday; how do you make a good product in a field
people hate? If everyone shouts down the notion of an IVR, who's going to
bother making a good one? If everyone is automatically against bundled
downloads, the best, least sleazy company in the world wouldn't stand a
chance.

------
mikecane
If you don't understand that the thing that is more important than money is
_trust_ , then you shouldn't be in business at all. The minute you screw
someone, you've lost them as a customer forever and you've ruined your own
reputation.

------
marv51
I think one of the main problems here is that large companys use these shady
distribution methods. Nobody gives them any crap about it.

I can't count how often I clicked 'no' when some installer tried to install
Bing toolbar or Google Chrome.

Chrome is/was offered as crapware in the Flash or Adobe Reader installer!!!

------
nonamegiven
Although I was put off initially, I think I wouldn't mind a straight ad that I
see once in an installer.

But leaving spoor behind in the form of toolbars is beyond the pale.

 _Toolbars_? Really?

------
btipling
Winzip and Nero use the Ask Partner Network (I used to work there on the Ask
Toolbar) to monetize their free software, so that is probably where that first
email came from.

<http://apn.ask.com/>

There's also conduit:

<http://toolbar.conduit.com/>

~~~
josteink
> Winzip and Nero use the Ask Partner Network

Sadly, on Windows even Oracle's Java has the ASK toolbar.

Almost nobody has any pride left on the Windows-platform, user-abuse is
rampant, almost expected. It's killing the platform and there's nothing
Microsoft can do about it.

~~~
eli
Isn't this what they're doing about it? <http://windows.microsoft.com/en-
US/windows-8/apps>

~~~
josteink
I was considering mentioning Windows RT/Windows 8 and it's "Metro" (Modern)
app-store. but decided that I wouldn't. Not because I didn't think about it,
not because I wasn't aware of it, but because I decided that so far it seems
not to be a very effective means to the end of salvaging Windows' reputation.

Especially given how the "Metro" platform so far seemingly have caused more
negative user-feedback than positive-feedback, I'm not sure this counts as
Microsoft "being able to do something about it".

~~~
eli
I admit that I no longer use Windows daily and I've never tried Win 8 so I'm
not super plugged in to what they're doing these days. But I don't see any
inherit reason why Apple can more-or-less successfully bolt an App Store onto
their OS while Microsoft cannot.

------
pioul
Would be interesting to get a statement from PG on that one, at least to
explain what's so great about this company.

~~~
tomasien
He's investigating now

~~~
lwat
Wouldn't he investigate BEFORE investing in such a dodgy, scammy looking
company?

------
namdnay
These guys are so scammy, their website is blocked at my office: "Malicious
Sources;Scam/Questionable/Illegal"...

------
huhtenberg
It'd be nice to hear what pg thinks of this, though he's probably not in
position to comment on this publicly.

------
biot
When it launched OpenCandy did this and all installs were opt-in only:
<http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10094314-2.html>

I'm not sure if that's changed in the meantime, but I recall it being a
refreshing change from every other system which defaulted to automatically
installing additional software rather than the user specifically having to
choose to opt-in.

~~~
mratzloff
OpenCandy is basically the only credible operator in this space.

------
louischatriot
When beginning working on our current startup, we decided to switch from
Windows to Linux to make development easier. I was planning to keep a
partition with Windows but I soon found out how being on Linux I didn't have
to worry about shit like this anymore. Needless to say I don't use Windows
anymore.

------
j_s
I want to see the pitch deck that got these guys into YC

------
Suan
I've been trying to think what is the root cause of this sad state of affairs
on Windows. Attacking the scammers is not going to work since obviously their
scams are profitable (and legal enough to get away with...)

Is it (the lack of) education among users? I find it curious that when
compared to financial products, where improving financial education is often
brought up as a solution, there's a lot less mention of education when it
comes to cases like these. Sadly this kind of "don't fall for these scams"
computing education is not very transferrable to more productive uses of
computing.

In a free market, if users stop falling for this crap (admittedly a tall order
on Windows) then the scammers will naturally go out of business.

------
mcgwiz
These products exploit/capitalize on computer illiteracy. That's not something
I would personally be proud of, but computer illiteracy is the real problem
here. Products like this can ultimately accelerate the correction of computer
illiteracy.

That correction can come in the form of greater mainstream cultural impetus
for computer literacy training, for operating system developerrs to prevent
these types of actions (app stores of all platforms are decent at this), or by
creating/expanding a market for products that intercept and neutralize this
type of exploitation.

The more efficient the means of exploiting computer illiteracy, the sooner the
exploit is, in some way, neutralized.

~~~
JanneVee
Why do you think the iPad sells so well?

------
Shorel
It's just another Softonic. That's not 'the future'. Just the annoying
present.

------
tomasien
Man people really are looking for an excuse to hate on PG. One of the 200
companies they've funded does something spammy and all of a sudden it's "YC
this", "PG that".

It's great to bring it to his attention, but these dudes are the ones building
the spam engine, PG was just one of many investors in the company. We can't
know how much of this he knew beforehand, but he says he's investigating,
which isn't even the point. I'm sure PG was keen on investigating this without
everyone pointing fingers at him like he made the decision to create this
spamware.

~~~
SyneRyder
InstallMonetizer were in the Winter 2012 YC batch (according to their site &
TechCrunch), but they've been around since mid 2010. The YC folks had to know
that installing toolbars was InstallMonetizer's business model... surely?

I don't want to hate on YC, I was just very surprised to hear they'd invested
in this company, and I'm interested to hear what their reasons were.

------
hakaaak
I absolutely despise crapware, google or ask toolbars, etc. that are bundled
with installers, however if there is a market for it and there is no law
against it, it will happen.

And once Google/etc. one day has everyone's credit card info and charges us
more often, I could totally see items starting to be added ala Vistaprint (if
you've used Vistaprint you almost certainly know what I'm talking about) like
magazine trial subscriptions, etc.

The more the economy sinks and people are less willing to spend, the more crap
will get dumped on us. Fact of life.

------
aegiso
I cling to the hope that there's something I'm not seeing here, but I fear
that might not be the case.

All I see is a business model that on top of being reprehensible, is
completely out of whack with the times, and even if successful promises to
cannibalize itself out of existence by destroying any remnant of faith that
Windows user still have in the Wild West of freely downloadable native Windows
apps.

Please, let not today be remembered as the day that YC jumped the shark.

------
jheriko
part of the problem is that, despite wishful thinking to the contrary windows
is /the only/ large platform for desktops and the Windows 8 App Store might as
well not exist, so the 'app store' argument is fundamentally flawed.

worse though is that this kind of stuff has ever been tolerated. its obviously
shady... tricky adverts and sneaky buttons should be just as illegal as any
other con or fraud. then they would not exist.

------
leeskye
These guys raised eyebrows a couple years back on Joel Splosky's Business of
Software blog:
[http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.837817.1...](http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.837817.10)

------
songzme
As a windows 8 user, I sort of expected that Windows would protect me from
crapware bundles, especially since that was what destroyed my windows 7,
vista, and all my previous windows experience. I guess not.

------
spyder
Are there any tools to block these installers for a computer illiterate user
but still allow non-crapware installers?

------
tyang
The future is now, apparently.

------
coderdude
Bundling third-party software with installers already happens and will
continue to happen whether this company exists or not.

If they can improve upon that experience somehow:

\- Reviewing the software before allowing it to be bundled and weeding out the
bad eggs.

\- Adding user reviews inline with the list of software to install.

...then there's a possibility that they can make this a pleasant, legitimate
experience for people.

~~~
skymt
The post we're discussing mentions payouts of $0.30 to $1.50 per install.
Factor in InstallMonetizer's unspecified cut, and you're looking at some
pretty significant rates. What sort of software do you think can afford to pay
that much to get bundled? If it's a trial up-sell at typical shareware
pricing, it would need on the order of 10% conversion just to break even. I
can't imagine a sensible monetization path for the bundled software that
doesn't involve intrusive advertising. Any ethical review process would
eliminate every applicant.

~~~
coderdude
I'm still not sold that this can't be a legitimate business that cares about
not bundling crap. Maybe payouts could decrease in size to attract more
reasonable software and to grow their offering. It could be used for product
launches for good apps. The opportunity here just doesn't seem as narrow to me
as it does to others.

------
venomsnake
Well, a lot of education about sandboxie or similar software to the users and
making the app recovery process more precise and this company is dead.

Any business model based on annoying and abusing your users is not viable in
the long term.

~~~
pflats
What about a business model based on encouraging other, more desperate
developers to annoy and abuse their users? I imagine that's quite viable.

------
madaxe
They're also guilty of apostrophe crime. Advertiser's. Please. Advertisers'.

Quality.

------
languagehacker
You don't honestly expect me to read an entire article written by someone who
would use a "sarcasm mark" -- do you?

------
kawsper
> Although the company claims it is all “non-personally identifiable data”,
> according to its website this surprisingly includes not only IP but the
> globally unique MAC addresses.

Enough with the scare tactics. A Mac adress is not, in any way, globally
unique.

~~~
fennecfoxen
Excuse me. As a rule, a MAC address is a decent approximation of globally
unique, certainly good enough to identify a single computer for advertising
purposes. If you have a MAC address and it's not globally unique, it's
defective and out of spec. Which isn't to say duplicates never happen (ultra-
cheap rip-off network cards, virtual machines, reprogramming your hardware
manually, etc), but... there's a reason they go through the rigamarole of
partitioning out different OUI blocks to different network equipment vendors.

~~~
kawsper
In my experience as a lanparty organizer duplicates happens a lot, way more
than I would like.

