
The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills - lemaudit
http://mosaicscience.com/story/male-suicide
======
SoftwareMaven
The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and
men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse,
my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and
the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or
bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme).

As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need
to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being
castigated.

~~~
curun1r
I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious
tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys
to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show
emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your
emotions...that's a female thing.

But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what
allow us to bond with others. The more you suppress those urges, the more you
end up feeling alone. And loneliness is perhaps the most understandable cause
of suicide I can think of.

We need to stop sending this message to young boys. It's okay to express your
feelings. It's okay to be vulnerable. You don't have to simply grit your teeth
and toughen up to endure whatever is bothering you.

~~~
steve19
My experience has taught me the opposite. My grandfather and father were never
taught to express feelings. Both were products of their time and
circumstances. And there is nothing wrong with that. Both were successful in
life despite the odds being stacked against them.

I do not have children. I would not have a clue how to raise a girl, but if I
had a boy, I would be teaching him stoical techniques to dealing with
problems, not today's 'share your feelings' approach.

(I am _not_ in anyway telling you how to raise your children, just sharing my
opinion as a man.)

I just don't see any evidence that the West's in vogue approach to teaching
boys and young men to be "in touch with their feelings" is helping them in
anyway. They are not happier. They are not more successful (in life). They are
depressed.

The stoics taught that most of what we think are problems, are not in fact
problems. And the things that are problems are generally not in our capacity
to change and therefore probably not worth worrying about.

Society tells us that every little thing is worth being upset about. We are
conditioned to even be outraged on other people's behalf over what really
amounts to nothing (think every single twitter shitstorm ever). We are told to
pick at scabs until they are bleeding, then pick some more. The theory being
that if we pick deep enough we will end up in a state of emotional
healing/enlightenment and we will feeling better for it. I don't buy it.

~~~
Nursie
There's a HUGE difference between "don't sweat the small stuff" and "keep your
feelings to yourself".

All of those things you mention are of the former, not the latter category.

One can be stoic and unconcerned with the problems the world throws at you but
still connect to people on an emotional level. This is something older
generations of my extended family absolutely failed at, due mostly to old-
fashioned englishness, and now the younger generations feel few emotional
bonds between ourselves and have basically dispersed.

It's OK to be a tough man who can take it on the chin, and also to admit you
love your friends and family.

~~~
Ntrails
_It 's OK to be a tough man who can take it on the chin, and also to admit you
love your friends and family._

Stoicism has nothing to do with being unable to express love/affection?

~~~
Nursie
I'm not up on the finer points of stoicism as its defined in a dictionary or
as a philosophical movement but ... I guess that's what I'm trying to get
across, yup!

------
cperciva
A few years ago I was eating dinner and watching the local 6PM TV news
broadcast. The lead story: "Friends and family mourn the tragic death of a
young woman who killed herself..." Half an hour later: "A young man has become
the latest statistic in a string of suicides..."

I don't know if it was deliberate, but it definitely brought to mind the quote
attributed (most likely incorrectly) to Stalin concerning deaths, tragedies,
and statistics.

------
DanBC
Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.

Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some
men.

We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal.

This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their
intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a
good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk
to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor
about?"

~~~
Nursie
>> But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and
have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about?"

And you know what? This is exactly what my most outspoken-feminist female
friend does. The MRAs have the wrong of things IMHO, and I'm glad I have good
friends.

~~~
hoopd
I suppose I'll get labled an MRA for this but I've found feminists to be the
absolutely least supportive people in my life over the past X years.

When somebody has an ideological belief that you're luckier than they are it's
difficult for them to feel empathy for you.

~~~
Nursie
Relating personal experience does not make one an 'MRA'.

It's always going to depend on who you know, and I'm not trying to say that
feminism has made her a compassionate person, just that my friend is a good
person regardless and her dedication to feminism hasn't made her into any sort
of man-hating caricature.

------
rrggrr
Spend a day in family court. Nowhere are the expectations of perfectionism for
men lower, but rules and the penalties higher. The suicide and early death
numbers for men whi transit this system are predictably high.

------
NTDF9
It all boils down to social pressure, doesn't it?

Socially, it is unacceptable for men to be "losers". To have any social
standing men have to do what is "respectable". Losing a job, for example, is
not.

Why can't a man be appreciated for who he is? Why does he have lower standing
if he makes min wage or does something boring? Maybe he has other things he
takes care of. Maybe he has a deep personality and even deeper interests.

To be honest, once I realized that this is how males are treated in real
world, I started having more respect for men in any situation...for I know
what they've been through. The world is cursed for men.

------
Red_Tarsius
The media have been churning out self-reinforcing stereotypes for decades. The
effects are as subtle as lethal.

A few years ago I was very stressed out. I thought that talking about my
problems (college, family, whatever) would have helped me. I shared my worries
and fears with a few my female friends. Bad idea.

> _“A man who’s needing help is seen as a figure of fun”_

~~~
tdkl
That must have been horrible. I had a similar experience, but what I got out
of it is that I relearned what "friend" actually stands for and that not many
exist in my life. "Close aquaintances" are more common, but friends are rare.

------
M8
Real title: "How a cheating wife killed her loyal husband and took all his
stuff and the kids in a 100% legal and socially-approved way".

------
tokenadult
The article begins with what appears to be a misstatement of fact. China is an
unusual country where the female suicide rate has been higher than the male
rate for a long time.

~~~
geebee
I wasn't aware of this.

I had read the overview page on wikipedia, where the numbers aren't broken
down by men and women _for China_

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)

instead, they provide a link here:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_China](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_China)

It's a bit of a shame, because I had scanned the first page in the past and
the higher female to male ratio would have jumped out at me since it's
unusual. I'm not suggesting in any way that there's any deliberate suppression
of info here, the reason the male/female numbers for China aren't printed in
the summary is because reporting is controversial (official govt numbers are
at odds with other independent studies), and so is complicated enough to
warrant its own page.

It is worth a look, with some interesting implications.

------
fierycatnet
This article points out something I've felt intuitively for the last few
years.

Can anyone recommend any vacation destinations or some other form of a get-
away for a week or two? I've been getting really stressed out lately, probably
a burn out. Have been thinking about some sort of a vacation anywhere from a
cruise to meditation retreat, can't make up my mind. Any recommendations?

Not to derail this topic but this article outlined some symptoms I have, feel
like I need a break.

~~~
voltagex_
Where are you, what's your budget and what do you enjoy?

~~~
fierycatnet
I am in TX with a budget of ~1500 for a week or two. The longer and cheaper
alone time is better. What do I like, you know I've been so slammed and in my
head that I can't even pick a vacation spot or remember what I like. I think
I'd enjoy just some peace somewhere, disconnected from it all for a week or
two.

~~~
squiguy7
My biggest suggestion would be to get out in nature. Unless you are really
opposed to spending a decently long time without creature comforts then I
think this is one of the best things.

Another piece of advice is to stay away from crowds like you pointed out.
There is a seemingly infinite amount of destinations that could satisfy this
requirement too.

Best of luck! I hope you find something suited to you and feel refreshed after
getting back.

------
Xcelerate
Social perfectionism? Maybe just having a spouse like Livvy was enough to do
it... geez. People who are evil, uncaring, and selfish can _also_ cause others
to feel depressed.

I remember reading a strange question on Quora once. A woman was trying to
figure out why her husband was always drunk and suicidal. "He used to be the
perfect man! I don't understand why he's acting like this now." Of course, in
the next paragraph, she mentions that it all started right after she had
cheated on him. The disconnect between her behavior and her failure to
recognize its consequences was staggering.

------
DanBC
This article mentions England a lot. You can get detailed statistics from our
Office for National Statistics.

If you want to know suicide rates in different regions you want the
(unfortunately named) NUTS3 document: [http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-
ons/business-transparency/fr...](http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-
transparency/freedom-of-information/what-can-i-request/published-ad-hoc-
data/health/february-2015/suicide-rates-by-nuts3--registered-in-2013.xls)

If you want deaths registered in 2013 (note the registered there. Somone could
die in 2012 but have a death registered in 2013) you want this page:
[http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-
health4/suicides-i...](http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-
health4/suicides-in-the-united-kingdom/2013-registrations/index.html) which
links to a spreadsheet with the data.

They use a clear definition of what they count as suicide.

------
senorito
> In every country in the world, male suicides outnumber female. The mystery
> is why?

It's not mysterious at all ... it's obvious. Men face stricter social
judgement and less psychological support.

> Less than 5 per cent do. So mental illness is not an explanation.

What? First of all that is a lot and second of all it is no secret that a very
severe depression often keeps people from contacting a doctor and being
diagnosed. In Germany you are facing easily several months until treatment.
When do you contact a doc - when you are suffering the worst - when do you
commit suicide? - then - and you are not diagnosed yet.

------
esthlos
I'd like to offer a different perspective.

Suicide is a violent crime, the killing of a human being.

Now, if we believe Wikipedia, then around 90% of homicides in the US will be
committed by males. It seems reasonable that the male-female ratio should be
about the same in the UK.

Then a 0.8 ratio of male to female suicides could be accounted for by the
increased male homicide rate alone.

The Wikipedia page:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime)

~~~
sukilot
For whatever reason, men tend to choose more lethal forms of self harm (guns,
cars) than women (cutting, pills)

~~~
lmz
Maybe it's that gap in STEM education we hear about that leads to women being
unable to choose properly lethal methods.

------
catlover99
Perhaps the simple principle that behind every great love/success lays a great
suicide. You can't give yourself completely and keep the man inside. Maybe
current society places too much value (amongst men) on complete commitment
which in turn leads to a type of internal suicide, a loss of self and
identity, which may manifest itself in a less internal but instead physical
response (a true suicide).

------
vegancap
This is one of the reasons the phrase 'male privilege' fills me with anger.

~~~
ryanx435
it pisses me off, too, mate

------
morpheous
Crying IS a sign of weakness and immaturity. Ever wondered why children cry
more than adults?

We're turning into a bunch of sissy, "touchy feely" men in the west - it's
enough to drive anyone to suicide. This whole political correctness thing has
gone too far - and I say that as a minority myself. Yeah, so I'll get
downvoted - so what?! - Newsflash - there are more important things in life
than points on HN!

~~~
ryanx435
just wanted to let you know I agree with you. cheers, mate :)

------
balabaster
It's an interesting read. What I've taken from it and from my own experience
is that even though the Confucian scholar may be wise and poor, largely he is
happy. My experience in life has been that the times I've been the happiest
are the times when I've had the least and haven't been chasing power and
wealth. The times when I've been most unhappy are those when by and large I
would have outwardly been considered the most successful.

As they say, money... and by extension, power, cannot buy happiness... and for
all the retorts to that: The illusion of happiness doesn't count as happiness.
The illusion is just a distraction from your own inner turmoil... and it will
only distract you for so long before you realize that for all your wealth and
power, true happiness lies within.

------
amelius
Living in a culture where people show only their "perfect" social self on
Facebook certainly doesn't help.

I guess the world is turning more social, and women are generally better at
that game.

Men are losing ground. We are turning into accessories.

------
parennoob
I think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle,
and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society
today.

Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone
celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men
are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it
being "more complicated than that" at best, and false at worst. [3] Fathers
are routinely mocked and disparaged in TV commercials, and shown as the
bumbling idiot. [4] A Columbia student has gained national acclaim after doing
a "art performance" accusing a fellow student of rape [5] while he (despite
having been cleared by the University) is still a pariah. [6] Meanwhile, a
female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student
gets only two years in prison (note that the article doesn't ever say "rape",
even though it _is_ statutory rape).[7]

Given these, is it any surprise that the average man who is mocked by society
thinks of committing suicide after his wife commits infidelity multiple times,
and then gets the house through no-fault divorce laws? This has nothing to do
with so-called perfectionism.

To be fair, the article covers this in one succinct sentence in the middle,
which is, "In the UK and other Western societies, it sometimes feels as if we
collectively decided, at some point around the mid-1980s, that men are awful."
\-- which I think is a far more accurate statement.

[1] [http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/granderson-met-
ya...](http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/granderson-met-yankee-
players-pink-moms-article-1.2216320)

[2] [http://time.com/179/men-are-obsolete/](http://time.com/179/men-are-
obsolete/)

[3]
[http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende...](http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html)

[4]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGCTFjFiNu4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGCTFjFiNu4)

[5] [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-
mix/wp/2014/10/29...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-
mix/wp/2014/10/29/its-hard-to-ignore-a-woman-toting-a-mattress-everywhere-she-
goes-which-is-why-emma-sulkowicz-is-still-doing-it/)

[6] [http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-
st...](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-student-i-
didn-t-rape-her.html)

[7] [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/07/amy-beck-
gets-2-yea...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/07/amy-beck-gets-2-years-
for_n_567930.html)

~~~
dang
Please don't take threads like this further off-topic with prefabricated lists
of links and talking points. This is not conversation.

This entire thread is a train wreck, but this comment is one of the places the
tracks were blown up.

~~~
parennoob
Sorry, I will keep this in mind in the future.

I thought references to what I was saying would be helpful, to prove that I
wasn't talking out my bottom. Hence, I was trying to give references from
major newspapers and other media resources that backed up things that I knew
from memory. A lot of other assertions in this thread (or indeed in a lot of
HN threads) don't do this, so I assumed it was a positive.

> prefabricated lists of links and talking points

As I said in another comment, a lot of things can't be verified over the
Internet, but I will tell you that my list wasn't prefabricated. I wrote that
paragraph (or a rough skeleton of it) from the various anti-male things I had
seen in the media (not very difficult, IMO); and then took the time to search
for the exact details, and added in the references.

I do agree that it is a hodgepodge of various things, which significantly
detracts from its quality. I'll try to narrow down my comments in the future
as well.

------
makeitsuckless
When it comes right down to the basics, with humans as with most species,
males are less useful than females. Females have an inbuilt basic purpose,
males have to prove their usefulness to the species/tribe/society. However
tragic it may be, maybe it's just perfectly natural behaviour for the
"superfluous" males to give up. I guess the opposite reaction would be to go
around venting their frustration by raping and pillaging.

(And no, I'm not writing this from the safe distance of a successful male.
I've been close to that edge, like many of us, and I have no illusion I may
not end up there again.)

------
a3voices
I think some people need proper perspective on life. We are all actors playing
out silly games of ambition. Achievement is really no different than a life of
non-achievement, although your human instincts tell you otherwise. Also there
is no such thing as being perfect unless perhaps you are a strong artificial
intelligence that is a million times smarter than humans.

~~~
Dewie3
And taking your own life isn't such a big deal if it's all just a game.

Achievements or none; they won't matter to you when you're in the ground.

~~~
sliverstorm
Well, if none of it matters, might as well stick around. It's not like you
have anything better to do.

~~~
Dewie3
How brilliant. How is that a better argument than "if you don't like it here,
you might as well kill yourself."?

Oh I see. Because you implicitly value "doing" as better than "not doing", no
matter what. So in that case, "living" must be better than "not existing", but
definition. Hence you should stay around. How brilliant. Got any more
brilliant arguments which are by default true by your own axioms?

~~~
sliverstorm
You sound awfully angry. I'm not sure why. I'm not really saying either is
better. Rather, each of us has an eternity of "not existing" waiting for us;
there just doesn't seem to be any reason to rush into it. It's not going
anywhere.

------
beachstartup
look, men are disposable. and it's always been this way, biologically
speaking. throughout most of history, mens' purpose _was_ disposability -
through soldiering, exploring, entrepreneurialism (the high risk / high reward
activities), or just working your fuckin' ass to the bone in the fields of
fealty or a in a grey cubicle (the low risk / low reward activities).

let's define some terms. "meaning of life" (note i didn't say purpose) =
reproduction, as far as anyone can tell. a single man can impregnate scores of
women, and then die the very next day. the same can't be said of the female
reproductive paradigm. for full replacement rate-of-birth, damn near every
female is needed, and the other 99 men aren't... technically. however --

modern society has attempted to socially engineer this hasty biological truth
out of male populations - it attempts to normalize male achievement and
distribute the proceeds in a more equal manner. hence the social traditions
and mores that have come to define the last few centuries (i call it the 3 M's
- marriage, mortgages, and missionary)

furthermore, society interprets "men" as the top (physically, socially,
financially) 20% of men, the men who make a real dent in the world and who
override the general perception of masculinity in society. the high achievers,
the genetically gifted, the powerful. the stereotypical 'man'.

however, the truth is most men aren't that archetype. most men are workhorse
peons that get the shit end of the deal, having to endure living a modern
subsistence lifestyle that consists of cheap housing, cheap food, cheap
relationships, cheap labor. our (i hesitate to say western? i mean these days
it's all over the fucking world) society has so far successfully plastered
over this truth with an embarrassment of material and technological wealth
(especially tech wealth in the last 10 years, for goodness' sake think of how
many hours one could waste in imaginary world of all sorts), but the ruse may
be soon up.

it's true and you can verify it just by looking around - the rest of us men
are either invisible, relegated to uncelebrated mediocrity, or become hermits
of some sort or another. it's extremely difficult as a man to reconcile the
societal and sometimes familial expectations of being into the top 20%, and
the slow burn of your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, straight into the bottom half of
society.

to me it's absolutely clear why men decide to check-the-fuck-out, whether
through technological, societal, or mortal means. we shouldn't be focusing on
the problems, which are clear as day, we should be focusing on the solutions.
i fear that my industry (tech, software, automation, whatever you want to call
it), in which i am a vanishingly minor, yet complicit conspirator, has only
hit the accelerator on the depreciation and obsolescence of the vast majority
of men.

~~~
kaitai
Women have been disposable throughout history too. Even in societies that
respected women, maternal mortality (death during childbirth) was pretty
common (and still is in the US). In societies that didn't like having so many
women, abortion or infanticide were/are common (see sex ratios in China and
India today).

Men get killed in wars and at work. Women get killed in wars and having
babies. Both are exposed to different kinds of violence (men in the street,
women at home). In your paradigm of meaning of life = reproduction, you fail
to point out that women are disposable after they've squeezed out a kid. And
whether they want to squeeze out a kid? You don't even ask.

Your dystopian view is not fun for anyone, let me assure you.

~~~
sabaiamurai
Do you realize how little sense your post makes?

You say maternal mortality was pretty common and still is in the US. It's
actually quite rare in the US. Maybe slightly higher than other countries, but
still incredibly rare. 28 our of 100,000. So where are you getting your
numbers?

You also say that women get killed in wars and "having babies." Like I already
showed you, women do not generally get killed having babies. And FAR more men
die in service to their respective countries than women do. Laughably,
ridiculously, far more men. Sure, an equal number of women and men die in
bombings and civilian gunfire, but that's not the result of social or
biological norms, that's just the result of random bombs and gunfire.

Finally, you say that men are exposed to violence in the street, and women at
home? Actually, both men and women are exposed to violence in the street, and
both men and women are exposed to violence at home.

You need to think more critically.

------
tdkl
Drummond was a social perfectionist because he was unconsciously trying to
please his absent father. The effect of how a child grows up is astounding to
his further development in life.

------
Dewie3
> When they finally divorced, Livvy got the house, the children, the lot. Once
> the maintenance was paid, there wasn’t much left for Drummond.

I guess getting suicidal over things like this is "social perfectionism".

~~~
brookside
Indeed, it seems as though Drummond's suffered from real setbacks and a lack
of true social connectedness. I'm not sure why he would be chosen to be the
centerpiece of this article about social perfectionists.

~~~
mafribe
Calling loosing one's house and children a setback trivialises the matter, as
if it happened by random chance. Instead he was the victim of
institutionalised sexism/misandry in the UK which more or less automatically
gives preference to women in divorce cases.

------
ca3dmon
what in god's name is that font

literally unreadable!

~~~
unexistance
hah didn't notice that, I've set my firefox to force use my choice of font all
the time

~~~
xai3luGi
Wow, I didn't think there was anyone else on the web who did that! Most
people's browsers obey web designers rather than their users.

------
johnpowell
Some MRA bullshit up in here. Sickening.

------
unexistance
In my belief, we prioritize the responsibility

God first, then obligation to parents (both sides if married) then to your
immediate family

It keeps thing simple for me & seems to be working so far

Although, I'm guessing not adhering to social norm helps in a way

------
bakhy
Queue male rights activists to explain to us how this is all feminism's fault
:/ Tragic, really. Things like this seem to obviously stem from patriarchy.
But instead of dismantling patriarchy, a small group of men simply blame
everything on feminists. Those feminists, how dare they fight for themselves
before they have solved the problems of men! :D

~~~
bakhy
P.S. The way Hacker News is "moderated" sucks. It was really easily
predictable that this would bring me downvotes, irrelevant of how well or poor
it may have been written. Dissenting opinions have little place here.

~~~
smil
Your opinion isn't dissent, it's the generally accepted view.

~~~
barry-cotter
I am proud to have been the first to downvote him but I upvoted his response
to you because you're wrong. I don't consider the time engaging him would take
to be worth it but I disagree with it. I'm sympathetic to some of what some
MRAs say but think some of them are vile people of the same ilk as Amanda
Marcotte but on the other side. But the most important thing about MRA is that
it's a movement doomed to fail because no one cares about men qua men. They
might care about their personal friends and relatives but men as a group? No
one cares. As such lift heavy, be awesome and deal with it as best you can.

~~~
Dewie3
> As such lift heavy,

Is this supposed to be a joke? That's really the best advice to deal with this
situation that you have?

Whenever I see "start lifting", I can't decide if they really believe in it as
a magic bullet or if they're taking the piss.

~~~
barry-cotter
"This situation" is insoluble. As a man you just have to deal with it. That is
all there is. Maybe one day family law in the USA and UK will be less one-
sided but it will still be the case that no one gives a fucj about men qua
men. You just have to keep going.

Run, lift, meditate, keep a gratitude journal but just keep going.

~~~
bakhy
You expect someone else to fight your battles? Of course nobody cares. You
have to make them care. It takes a lot of effort to get a message heard by
people, to make any kind of change. A lot of work, and a lot of humiliation.
If you don't want to do it, fine, but, as the (I think) Chinese saying says,
the one who does not think it can be done should not be interrupting those
doing it. (Well, not much is being done in this particular case, but I like
the saying...)

