
Ask HN: Fake résumé generator - peterburkimsher
I&#x27;m looking for a job. I&#x27;ve had a lot of conflicting advice from different people about what to put on a résumé, and how long it should be. Although my background is in hardware, I&#x27;ve had more work experience in software, including recently doing some big data processing and machine learning. I feel like my applications are being auto-filtered and aren&#x27;t even being seen by humans. The only interview I had simply asked questions about each part of the job description.<p>Therefore I&#x27;m considering writing a fake résumé generator. It would take a job description, find key words, and patch together a realistic profile based on a dataset of real résumés.<p>If my bots could get an interview, I would then attend and reveal my true identity. Having successfully built a machine that passed their HR deparment&#x27;s Turing Test, I&#x27;d hope that some engineers might be impressed with my sheer audacity. However, I&#x27;m worried that it might get me blacklisted from some companies. I feel like there&#x27;s nothing to lose though, because I&#x27;m already unemployed.<p>What&#x27;s your opinion? Is this a system that&#x27;s worth gaming? Would you be impressed or offended if you discovered that a shortlisted candidate was AI, not human?
======
davelnewton
Based on another comment you made, I looked at your resume, here are my
thoughts:

* Skip the crammed-together logo crap and links on the left.

* More whitepace, it's hard to read.

* Don't jam the position/company/location/dates all on one line.

* It's impossible to figure out what you (think you) know without reading everything: without a summary section you likely won't get past many automated or human systems.

* Even _after_ reading your experience I have almost _zero_ clue what languages and environments you know, have familiarity with, prefer, or enjoy.

* Stop with all the freakin' icons, flags, and pictures.

* References on request.

* Elide all/most of the "Personal Interests"

* Nobody cares about your iBooks in 2005

* I _would_ keep the language, education sections; academic awards, meh; as a hirer, I don't care.

* Add a better summary section.

* Add usable, relevant info to the job history (e.g. "I wrote this", BFD: what did you use to write it?) or add an overall technology section, and don't lie, because if whoever is interviewing you is anything like you, I _will_ ask about the weirdest shit you put on your resume.

Bottom line: lots of wasted space, way too light on actionable data. No clue
what you actually know, what you want to do, how any of your experience is
relevant to what I'm hiring for.

Tangential: For better or worse, your religious views will raise certain
feelings in certain people. And if your life was predetermined, then this is
all what's supposed to happen anyway, right? So why complain? Just sayin'.

~~~
peterburkimsher
I've emailed you with 3 alternative versions based on contradictory advice
I've received in the past. Please read those and tell me whether there's a
specific position at LittleBits that you think I should rewrite the résumé
for.

I won't answer all your objections here, because I fear that it might sound
defensive and I don't want to turn a comment thread into a flame war. I do
appreciate advice.

~~~
davelnewton
I have responded to your email, although it's borderline creepy, and _telling_
someone you've internet-stalked them is probably not the best approach.

It doesn't bother me if you sound, or are, defensive--people are naturally
invested in their work, their image, their "self". Won't change my opinion(s),
it takes two people to have a flame war, and I'd ignore anything war-like
because I have actual stuff to do.

~~~
hluska
This is a very classy reply - you've offered OP some wonderful help and dealt
with a strange situation with tact and class. Have a great weekend!

~~~
davelnewton
Ironically, that I would ignore anything war-like was parroted back to me as a
_bad_ thing in one of the OP's emails--he was offended because I used
"profanity" (the word was "shitty") and he left in a huff after I spent the
time to deal with both his post here, and his unsolicited emails asking for
advice, with three resume versions to read, and asking how to get a job where
I worked.

Some people... _shrug_ wth.

~~~
hluska
That's sad. You went way above what most people would do and it's upsetting
that OP would treat you like that after you did so much. From my perspective,
what you did is absolutely amazing and I hope that one bad apple doesn't make
you change how you'd react in the future.

This is one of those moments when Hacker News really needs an 'upvote' button
and an 'upvote and buy lunch' button. Since I can't buy you lunch, at least
accept my gratitude and respect. You're a good man and I have a lot of respect
for the way you have handled this.

~~~
davelnewton
I (more or less) tend to operate, despite my cynical nature, that everyone's
nice until proven otherwise. I genuinely enjoy helping people and providing
feedback/mentoring/etc. My brevity is often taken for callousness, but that I
spend the time at all is generally enough to offset concision--I _do_ actually
have stuff to do ;)

 _shrug_ It takes all kinds and all that :) But thanks, appreciate the
appreciation. His knee-jerk reaction was just that, and while annoying,
ultimately inconsequential.

------
davelnewton
I would be neither impressed nor offended, I would be irritated.

It takes hours or days of clock time to find candidates to bother phone
screening, let alone bring in for a face-to-face. Someone comes in that I'm
not expecting to talk to... you'll meet the door with some velocity.

(And anybody that wants you to come in for a face-to-face before a phone
screen... they deserve whatever they get, because that's dumb unless they're
across the street and bring you lunch.)

If you can't figure out what to put on a resume how will you solve an _actual_
problem?!

------
mataniko
To add to the great advice you got by davelnewton already, you should consider
a few more things.

It's obvious that you're at the point of frustration, and you're taking it
personal. It's either affecting your style of communication, or your style of
communication is combative as a whole.

Speaking of personal, your resume is very personal, where it should be
professional. Reading your resume should be a succinct representation on your
professional skills. Your personal style and hobbies are something that co-
workers learn during interviews and after you start your job. As other people
have said, less is more in this aspect.

Hiring managers find objectives in a resume mostly useless. Even if you insist
on including an objective, the current one is weak. It's about as generic as
the label you'd find on white bread. It should be a summary of who you are
(professionally). For example: "A Software Engineer with over 10 years worth
of experience with a track record of delivering exceptional quality on time
with a focus on electrical engineering"

Your resume should sell, and you are the product. With that in mind, you
should write it in a manner that describes the value you bring, not a laundry
list of things you've done at your previous positions. It's great that you
wrote driver software, but what impact did it have?

Everything on the resume that adds no value can be removed, that includes all
of these 1-2 month long internship (it's ok to combine it into 1 "job" with
multiple bullet points demonstrating value). It also includes everything
that's extracurricular, hobbies, interests, languages, GPA, etc. (Use
judgement here, if the job requires multi-lingual proficiency than you'd want
to keep that)

References should not be on your resume. If someone wants a reference, they
will ask for it.

You should list major roles and describe you VALUE and not day to day tasks.
3-4 bullet points each one a paragraph elaborating on how your contribution
was valuable. Small roles can be combined, but the same rule applies - the
place/title doesn't matter only the value.

~~~
davelnewton
I have a minor disagreement with the "Objective" section. I use mine as a
(relatively) succinct window into my personality, goals, and ambitions: mine
is a bit silly, but honest, and informative. If they don't like what I say in
my objective, they will _not_ want to hire me, and I wouldn't want to work
there.

I use mine as both information, and a "gatekeeper" of sorts, and I believe
it's saved everyone involved a fair amount of time in the long run. If they
like it, and my skills or aptitude match what they're looking for, it's
_probably_ a good fit on multiple levels.

That said: it's a _minor_ disagreement. For most people it probably isn't
quite as functional--but I'm a unique snowflake ;)

------
otras
I'd highly recommend patio11's fantastic post _Don 't Call Yourself A
Programmer, And Other Career Advice_, in particular this section:

 _" Read ad. Send in resume. Go to job interview. Receive offer.” is the
exception, not the typical case, for getting employment._

[0]: [https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-
pr...](https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/)

~~~
peterburkimsher
I agree entirely. I don't expect that my real persona can succeed on a typical
job board (e.g. Indeed, Seek, TradeMe, 104).

After trying with that method, I experimented with many other routes. Most
expect me to already have a work visa. I've been trying since March. I rewrote
my résumé twice. I updated my LinkedIn. I asked recruiters for help. I put
side projects on the web to try to get attention. I asked friends who I worked
with at a local company when I was there before. I found random people on
Github and offered to work for free on open-source projects just to get an
introduction. I contacted computer repair shops and asked them to put up
posters advertising data migration services that I could do with my old Apple
II. Nothing has worked. Now I'm spamming every company on the Accredited
Employers list (whether in the tech industry or not), just to try to get some
new ideas of how to approach the application process in that country.

~~~
jtchang
Why do you think nothing has worked? Also you don't have an e-mail contact or
anything in your profile for anyone who might actually be interested in your
background!

~~~
peterburkimsher
Valid point; I've added contact details to my HN profile. I think that nothing
has worked because although some people reply, the answers are always
negative. I've had only a single interview.

Writing custom cover letters and tailoring my résumé for each separate
application is very time consuming and involves exaggeration to the point of
stretching the truth. What I'm considering in this project is to build a bot
that could take over that process. Blatant lying, just not in my name. I think
that fraud is wrong for a human, but for a bot, passing the Turing Test is a
feature.

~~~
PascLeRasc
"I think fraud is wrong for a human, but if it's the human pressing a button
that tells a lie, no harm done."

~~~
davelnewton
The armed drone approach to resumes.

------
aranelsurion
I think this is a bad idea. Odds are very high that this will end with an
immediate rejection and maybe even blacklisting, if I were you I wouldn't risk
it.

Thing is, even if the field of work is relevant (AI), most companies consider
their HR process as some kind of sacred rite of passage and they tend to be
very inflexible in changing their mode of operation per candidate. Not to
mention that even if companies advertise otherwise, disregard for status quo
|| authority is not really a marketable character trait.

To answer your question on a more personal note: actually, I'd at least be a
bit impressed if the end product is of high quality, and would like to learn
more about the code and your reasoning behind it. Yet I believe this would be
an uncommon approach in the industry.

~~~
peterburkimsher
Your résumé is 3 pages long, whereas DrNuke below recommends getting
everything onto one page maximum.

Thank you for your opinion though, I'm trying to evaluate whether this is a
situation of Asymmetric Risk [1]. When I have no job to start with, I feel
like I have nothing to lose.

[1] [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-
id...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-ideas/how-
savvy-investors-know-when-odds-are-in-their-favour/article626125/)

------
tlb
I'd end the interview and put you on the do-not-hire list.

I find many kinds of hacks amusing or impressive. But not lying about your
background.

~~~
peterburkimsher
The bot wouldn't be using my name. It would be creating an entirely fictitious
persona.

~~~
davelnewton
... which you're using to get an interview:

> If my bots could get an interview, I would then attend and reveal my true
> identity.

So you'd be hijacking the interview of your fictitious persona. I'm not even
sure which is worse, but IMO it's a dick move, and I'd show you the door
before anything of value was discussed.

Although any place that's doing in-person interviews w/o a phone-call sanity
check, and maybe more, isn't a place I'd want to work anyway, because that's
un-sustainable.

------
m3mpp
"The game is hard so I cheated!" Do you think it's a good way to start a
business relationship?

~~~
peterburkimsher
Some say cheater, others say "gifted analyst".

"A visa too! Wow, a fascinating problem with multiple dimensions to consider.
And here at the center of it, a gifted analyst. I wonder what kind of theory
or model could be drafted, something that fits the situation like a glove
_and_ exposes critical leverage points. If anyone could do it...(points at
you)"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17927183](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17927183)

I haven't cheated yet because I have ethical doubts about it. But my resolve
is slipping because I have tried every other conceivable option for trying to
get a job.

~~~
one87
I looked at your resume for exactly 5 seconds before I closed it again, so I
think it really might be you(r resume).

Also I'm not sure if you tried ever conceivable option. If you know some
Latex, fill out this template and you should be off a lot better:
[https://github.com/xdanaux/moderncv](https://github.com/xdanaux/moderncv)

------
chooseaname
What is YOUR opinion? If you were spending tens of thousands of dollars trying
to recruit people and someone said, "Ha! Just kidding, here's my real resume."
What would you do?

~~~
peterburkimsher
If the role is related to AI, and the interviewer wants to know about previous
experience, does "Making a bot smart enough to fool your HR department" count
as a demonstration of skills?

The HR department is already using AI to filter candidates. It's called
Applicant Tracking Systems. It's a thing [1] [2]. If the companies are using
bots against the candidates, why should candidates not use bots against the
companies?

[1] [https://www.analyticsindiamag.com/top-use-cases-ai-human-
res...](https://www.analyticsindiamag.com/top-use-cases-ai-human-resources/)

[2] [https://medium.com/@deadlocked_d/to-all-recruiters-use-
machi...](https://medium.com/@deadlocked_d/to-all-recruiters-use-machine-
learning-to-hire-better-candidates-c5aad22f3319)

~~~
chooseaname
It isn't a matter of using a bot. It's what the end result looks like. You can
use a bot to determine which of your real skills would likely get your resume
looked at. You CANNOT use a bot to build a fake resume.

~~~
davelnewton
Well... not so sure about that; I think I could probably spin out a reasonable
resume bot. I gave the idea some thought; I think the hardest part would be a
reasonable-looking work history (which of course would crumble almost
immediately), but I suspect it's easier than I think it is.

I may have to take a run at it just for giggles.

------
darepublic
The person with a hireable mentality would have created Show HN: Fake Resume
Generator

~~~
peterburkimsher
I might, but I made several Show HNs that didn't succeed.

Before making a controversial project like this, I decided to weigh up the
attitude of the community. If the comment thread were encouraging, then I
would probably have done it. But instead it's turned to personal attacks on my
existing résumé. I think it's a toxic idea that's likely to breed flame wars,
and that's not going to help me find a job.

Intriguingly, nobody doubts that AI could produce these bots. Somebody
probably will do this, but I don't think they'll then show it off.

~~~
davelnewton
You can't make personal attacks on a resume, you can make personal attacks
on... a person.

I didn't see _anything_ in this entire thread that was a personal attack. I
saw attacks on your _idea_ , because it's deceitful, and I saw criticisms of
your resume, which AFAIC, seems pretty valid under the circumstances.

If I write a fake resume generator, it'll be on Github for all to peruse and
improve upon--don't know why people wouldn't want to "show their work". It's
not like it's going to get a lot of people hired, and even if it did, it'll be
rare that they're kept in their position for long.

------
DrNuke
A clear-cut, honest one-page CV stiil beats fakes and bots.

------
ithilglin909
As an engineer who gets a lot of resumes from HR to make decisions about who
is coming in for in person interviews, I would be rather annoyed. I would feel
that you were dishonest and lacked respect for my time.

Saying you have nothing to lose because you're unemployed makes no sense. You
would be losing potential job opportunities.

You'd be far better off putting your time into creating a neat, readable
resume.

------
one87
Well I do actually read resumes and cover letters. If I figured out you wasted
my time with a fake resume (even if it's cool to create them
programmatically), I'd blacklist you from future applications and move on with
life.

------
thedevindevops
You are likely being auto-filtered for a reason, ask for feedback and build on
that. Also manage your own expectations, you are in a highly competitive
industry with finely balanced requirements - you're not perfect for every role
but there is a perfect role for you.

