
Despite improvements, driving in America remains extraordinarily dangerous - edward
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21656668-despite-improvements-driving-america-remains-extraordinarily-dangerous-road-kill?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/pe/st/roadkill
======
jonathansizz
After moving from the UK to the US fifteen years ago, I was amazed at certain
practices that are common in the US: tailgating, weaving and undertaking are
ubiquitous here.

I also noticed that a significant fraction of drivers don't know how to use
acceleration lanes; they wait at the beginning of the lane until they can pull
directly into the main flow of traffic. Tailgating and weaving are probably so
common because many drivers do not see left lanes as overtaking lanes, but
rather seem to have a favourite lane that they always use; other drivers must
navigate around them.

Also, the driving test in the UK takes about 1 hour, with 40 minutes of
driving in all conditions (highway, urban, overtaking, merging, emergency
stop, three-point turn, parallel parking in an actual parking space, etc.).
For my American test, I had less than ten minutes of driving - I took a right
out of the test center, drove for 1/2 mile, took a left then three rights and
headed back to the test center, went round the back and parallel parked
between bollards that had at least two parking spaces between them. That got
me my license.

It's just a different culture here - driving is seen as a right, not a
privilege.

~~~
_delirium
> It's just a different culture here - driving is seen as a right, not a
> privilege.

Partly that's because in huge parts of the country, it's effectively a
necessity to be able to drive in order to get to work, buy groceries, etc.,
since public transit outside of a few urban cores is very spotty (often
nonexistent). Therefore removing someone's license, or not letting them have
one in the first place, is seen as a very serious matter that could greatly
complicate the person earning a living.

~~~
mondoshawan
That's because most of the U.S. Is rural, not urban, and highly spread out.
Public transit just isn't practical when you have states the size of multiple
EU countries and people haven't well centralized into tall cities.

The further east you go, the better it is.

~~~
akgerber
'Most of the US' is rural, if you weight by area. But most people live in
suburban areas, which are dense enough to support public transit if they
weren't designed in such a pedestrian-hostile fashion.

~~~
techsupporter
> suburban areas, which are dense enough to support public transit

Primary reason my coworkers support public transportation, according to them,
in an area with pretty good transit (especially for people who commute during
"normal" hours): "I want the buses and trains to be good so everyone else will
take them and get off of my roads."

~~~
cfallin
At least people who think like that are supporting public transit! It's far
better than the (sadly) more common thought-pattern of "I don't use it, so I
won't vote to fund it".

------
Tiktaalik
It's remarkable to me just how normalized the danger of cars has become, and
how hard it is to push back against the status quo.

In contrast in the Netherlands as car use increased and deaths increased in
the 50s-60s, there was a strong push back, with groups such as Stop de
Kindermoord (“stop the child murder”) forming to protest against ceding the
city to the car.

[http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-
bicy...](http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bicycle-
capital-world-transport-cycling-kindermoord)

Subsequently the Netherlands didn't design completely around the car, has a
very high bike share and is dramatically safer than the USA.

People point to self driving cars as the solution, but it's really just doing
the wrong thing better instead of doing the right thing.

A better solution is to design our cities so that they aren't completely
designed around the car. Reducing space for cars will not only make our cities
safer, but it's also the healthier, more affordable and and more sustainable
solution.

~~~
jessaustin
The Dutch are either much better and wiser people than we are, or they saw the
results of cars taking over other nations and learned from our mistakes.

I'm fairly indifferent to automobiles, and a bit of a gun enthusiast, but I
wonder... Do the dangers posed by cars and the dangers posed by guns in USA
somehow cancel each other out psychologically? That is, some people dismiss
the dangers of firearms by pointing out how many more people are killed by
drivers. Others feel better about driving by saying "well at least it's not
like owning a gun". To ensure that everyone dies of cancer or old age, we'll
have to make big changes with respect to both firearms and automobiles.

------
mcguire
Deaths per 100,000 people is probably the wrong figure to look at to determine
the safety (or lack thereof) of driving.

According to this[1] list of traffic-related deaths by country that includes
deaths per billion vehicle-kilometers (also not a great figure, but better),
the US has 7.6 and Japan has 8.3---Japan is more dangerous, not much less.
Spain is the same as the US, France is 6.3, and Germany is 4.9.

According to the IIHS[2], Montana as 1.96 deaths per 100 million vehicle
miles, while New Jersey has 0.74, a factor of 2.6 vs 3.7 according to the
article's deaths per 100,000 people.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-
related_death_rate) (WHO data, 2013?)

[2] [http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-
statistics/fatalit...](http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-
statistics/fatalityfacts/state-by-state-overview) (2013 data)

~~~
SilasX
What about a metric that accounts for speed? Should it account for that?

Intuitively, if two cars each average one death per million miles, but one of
them had an average speed of 5mph, and the other 60mph, then the faster one
should be regarded as safer because it maintained that death rate under less
safe conditions.

~~~
mcguire
That would help, I think. I suspect a difference in average speed is partially
behind the differences between Montana and New Jersey, possibly more important
than the usual "Montana drivers are freedom-loving (or insane) and don't like
to be told to wear seatbelts."

------
tokenadult
The article shows a deaths-per-mile driven figure rather early in the article:
"For every billion miles Americans drive, roughly 11 people are killed. If
American roads were as safe per-mile-driven as Ireland’s, the number of lives
saved each year would be equivalent to preventing all the murders in the
country." The article looks at a variety of statistics for examining
international comparisons of road safety: "And in some ways things have been
getting worse. For example, between 2009 and 2013 pedestrian deaths jumped by
15% as the economy recovered. In Britain, over the same period, the number
fell by a fifth."

On my part, I would much rather drive in the United States (as I have to, in a
culture so bound to the automobile) than in Taiwan, the only other country
I've lived in for a long time. I had a driver license the first time I lived
in Taiwan (1982 through 1985), but I never drove there. The second time I
lived there (1998 through 2001), I didn't even bother getting a driver
license. It was a luxury when the Taipei Mass Rapid Transit system extended a
subway line out to where I lived in the suburban city of Panchiao during my
last year there. I much prefer public transportation commutes to driving
commutes when I can get them. (Where I live here in the United States I
necessarily have to commute by car to work, even though we chose our
neighborhood for its convenient one-mile walking distance from much of our
shopping and our visits to the county library branch.) My oldest son was
acculturated to public transportation while we were living in Taiwan the
second time and now happily lives in New York City without a driver license.

------
dmckeon
Proposal for the US: shift teens from cars to smaller vehicles: mopeds,
scooters, and very small displacement motorcycles - 50, 100, 150 cc engines -
and tie advancement in license class/engine size to both age and other
achievements: graduating high school or getting a GED, completing an associate
degree or technical program, graduating college, completing military or
national service, or being employed for X hours per week.

Put strong negative incentives in place for motor vehicle violations -
temporary downgrade in license class, bump in insurance costs, delay in
advancement to next license class.

This would significantly increase the number of small vehicles on roads while
decreasing the power and weight of vehicles being operated by less experienced
drivers. It would provide a easily visible way for young people to display
their level of age and accomplishment (or lack of it).

Operators of larger vehicles would have to deal with the presence of many more
smaller vehicles, which could have a herd immunity effect - with 10x scooters
on the street, car drivers would be more likely to notice and avoid two-
wheelers of all sizes. Reduced carbon output would be another benefit.

~~~
unethical_ban
"Hello parents, please put the light of your life on a two-wheeled vehicle so
if she gets on an accident on the highway going to school, she won't hurt
anyone else."

~~~
sgift
"Or put him/her in a four-wheeled vehicle which will drive far faster than the
two-wheeled one and kill the light of your life in case of an accident. The
choice is yours!"

------
andrewtbham
I have friends that work in the ER... and the joke is...

What is the difference between a motorcyclist who wears a helmet or not? open
or closed casket.

~~~
NathanthePie
What do you call a motorcyclist without a helmet?

An organ donor.

------
baby
To pass my driver's licence in France I have to pay ~1000euros and then I get
20 hours of "free" driving lessons, then if the teacher think you need more
hours you have to take more hours, each hour cost 40euros more. And after all
of that you can pass the driving test.

I've never heard of anyone that didn't need at least 10-20 additional hours.
Most people fail their driving test at least once. I personally failed the
writing exam and had to wait 6 months to try again.

Here in America I can go there, pay 30 bucks and I can pass my writing test in
a day. And then come back a few days letter, pay like 10 dollars and pass the
driving test.

Maybe it's related with the number of accidents?

PS: Don't get me wrong, fuck the extreme french driver's licence system.

~~~
bcassedy
Is the teacher a govt employee or are they a private business? If the latter,
I'm not surprised that everyone needs more hours. The teacher is incentivized
to squeeze every student for more money.

It reminds me of a story from my father's youth. He had gotten a minor DUI
(back when there was such a distinction), had his license suspended, and was
sentenced to see a counselor for a prescribed number of visits. After those
visits the counselor could, at his discretion, recommend more counseling or
recommend the license be renewed.

Edit to clarify: He had to see a counselor for x visits. He could choose from
a list of approved counselors and he would be responsible for any fees.

After the prescribed number of visits the counselor recommended more
counseling. Dejected, my father went home and thought. The next day he called
up the counselor and said, "You know, I don't feel that I need further
counseling. I'd like to see another counselor for a second opinion."

The next day he had a recommendation for license renewal from the first
counselor.

~~~
baby
> Is the teacher a govt employee or are they a private business?

Private business! I had a friend who spent hundreds of hours driving with his
father before 18, and when he had to go through this thing to get the real
driver's licence, they asked him to do 10 hours more (400euros). This was a
joke really, and my friend is too nice so he didn't say anything.

------
GigabyteCoin
Unfortunately drunk driving still doesn't seem to be taken all that seriously
in North America.

Most of my friends will admit to driving home when they know they shouldn't
have. I used to be in that category but have made good use of the bus system
over the past few years.

In Smalltown, NY where my friend's cottage is located... her father tells
stories of the town's own police chief driving home after a heavy night of
drinking at the local legion after fish fry fridays. He brags that his driving
habits are untouchable in that town because of this knowledge.

It's disgusting, really.

------
sehugg
Mobile use is pretty bad too. Every time I see someone who's not used their
signal or has failed to turn their head before cutting me off in my lane it
seems they have a phone pressed against their ear. And I don't want to even
mention the people who are looking at tablets on their laps (!)

------
ShirsenduK
What word can one use for driving in India? Suicidal? Its much much more
chaotic all the time.

~~~
somberi
India roughly accounts for 15% of road traffic deaths worldwide, although it
has just 1% of the world's motor vehicles. In 2011, the country witnessed
440,123 accidents that left 136,834 people dead, according to the National
Crime Records Bureau. In the decade up to 2011, the number of deaths on the
road jumped by 44.2 per cent.

A rough calculation of the data in the World Health Organisation's global
status report on road safety 2013, on the number of registered vehicles and
the number of estimated road traffic fatalities around the world, indicates
that in India, there is an average of one death for every 840 vehicles.
Meanwhile, China has one death for 2,942 vehicles, while the US has one death
for every 7,847 vehicles.

What's more, the majority of road fatalities in India (65%) occur on state and
national highways and 78% of all road fatalities are attributed to human
errors, such as speeding, inattention, drunken driving and prediction errors.

But if you take Death per thousands, you can see India is at parity with the
world. Ref: [http://qz.com/216766/despite-what-you-may-think-indias-
hardl...](http://qz.com/216766/despite-what-you-may-think-indias-hardly-the-
worst-country-for-driving-accidents/)

~~~
gwern
> But if you take Death per thousands, you can see India is at parity with the
> world. Ref: [http://qz.com/216766/despite-what-you-may-think-indias-
> hardl...](http://qz.com/216766/despite-what-you-may-think-indias-hardl..).

Why would you bother to point this out when you already explained in your
earlier statistic, about death per vehicles, why going by population is a
ridiculous comparison? (India is a poor country with relatively few
automobiles, yet the death numbers are sky high and comparable to countries
with more automobiles.)

------
nefitty
Is there a Google autonomous car waiting list somewhere?

~~~
nostrademons
This is how self-driving vehicles will get adopted - if enough articles come
out showing just how bad humans are at driving, there will be a public safety
call to first introduce and then mandate autonomous vehicles.

~~~
newman314
BZZT. No.

Try imagining the transition period, usual shitty driver [1] vs. autonomous
vehicle or vs. a car equipped with V2V.

Plus there are enough rich people in the world with nice cars that will most
likely never give up their right to enjoy their car.

The proper fix is better mandated driver education and better infrastructure.
Other countries can do it, it's way past time the US caught up.

[1] My favorite, the cut across 4 lanes because the idiot realized that the
exit was being passed. I have absolutely no issue if he kills himself as a
result of his own stupidity. What I take issue with is someone taking ME out
because of their burning desire to win the Darwin Award.

~~~
mhurron
> The proper fix is better mandated driver education

No, the proper fix is going to have to be driverless cars. That person isn't
flying accross 4 lanes of traffic to get to their exit because they didn't
know any better, they did it because they weren't paying attention and didn't
think ahead. They knew they shouldn't do that, but they have got to make that
exit.

There's no education lacking about the need to pay attention while driving,
but people choose not to anyway. Then they choose to make stupid decisions to
deal with that choice. That is why the fix is not more education that people
are ignoring, it's remove the driver entirly.

~~~
estebank
> (...) _they have got to make that exit._

Losing 5 minutes by taking the following exit safely is too much to ask?

------
Tagbert
When I travel to Brasil it is always a relief to return to the US because
driving in Brasil is very dangerous and nerve racking. The drivers are very
aggressive, non-cooperative and there are almost no traffics officers to make
sure people follow traffic regulations.

------
idlewords
There's the old Confederacy, screwing up our stats again.

------
menegattig
Well.. try to drive in São Paulo or Rio de Janeiro - Brazil.

------
Implicated
Are there no editors at this outlet? How does something with so many blatant
errors ever get published?

~~~
kefka
No.. "We're just going to cherry pick what data we want to show for our
narrative. Damn be the statistics and facts."

