
Brutality of Life Reading List - exolymph
https://www.sonyasupposedly.com/brutality-books/
======
dmcgee
For non-fiction, I'd add The Hell of Treblinka, by Vassily Grossman, a Red
Army journalist who was one of the first to enter the death camp. One of the
hardest things i've read.

"It is the writer's duty to tell the terrible truth, and it is a reader's
civic duty to learn this truth. To turn away, to close one's eyes and walk
past is to insult the memory of those who have perished."

~~~
daltonlp
This book pairs with "Into That Darkness" by Gitta Sereny. A semi-biography of
the commandant of Treblinka, based on interviews with him.

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chansiky
A lot statements by authors pointing out that life is brutal, and getting very
depressing and deep about the topic, but not really explaining why. Life is
brutal because its inherent to all living things being in pursuit of self
replication whereupon success, such success is replicated. We are always in
strife for the same space, energy, and resources with each other(each other
being all living things).

Don't be saddened by it, or make it some sort of deep philosophical tragedy.
It's as much fact as evolution, or as much fact as 10 - 1 = 9. Accept it and
learn to love it for what it is.

~~~
exolymph
"But whaddaya know, pain is indispensable to survival." Linking to:
[https://www.gwern.net/Backstop#pain-is-the-only-school-
teach...](https://www.gwern.net/Backstop#pain-is-the-only-school-teacher)

You're correct that I focused on the topic I was writing about and not
auxiliary issues.

------
ericzawo
I appreciate threads and posts like this, as I'm 30 and have had my share of
brushes with death (cancer, one or two significantly dangerous moments in
life) that have made me take real pause about "the point of it all," and
especially what, if anything comes next. In fact, I've been really struggling
with that thought of the moment of finality, and it's been keeping me up at
night lately. Appreciate this share and looking into a few of these books.

~~~
voisin
Re Cancer, have you read “Tripping over the Truth: The Metabolic Theory of
Cancer”[0]? [0]
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23496164](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23496164)

------
codingdave
I just wanted to post a note of thanks to the author for labeling which links
are affiliate links. I have no problem clicking on affiliate links - everyone
wins a little when they are relevant to the topic at hand. I simply appreciate
the transparency of having them labeled.

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vittore
"Live is suffering and you need something more meaningful than pursuit of
happiness to make it bearable" seems to be central idea of everything Jordan
B. Peterson writes and speaks about.

If I could add to this list:

\- everything by Alexander Solzhenitsyn that was translated to English.

\- Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky

\- Demons by Fyodor Dostoevsky

\- Ward No 6 by Anton Chekhov

~~~
DrLindemann
Peterson makes an error in the conclusion. The scarceness of opportunity to be
happy does not mean to neglet things that make you happy. There is a
difference between claiming happiness and seeing happiness as "bad" or
"degenerating". Both will likewise cause suffering. Peterson (if he knows or
not) is a Nietzsche apologist. Nietzsche perverted the philosophy of
Schopenhauer and turned everything around. Schopenhauer saw that life itself
follows an irrational principle - the "Will" in nature. Every being or even
substance longs for existence and to take effect at the cost for other beings
or substances. This "will" causes suffering. Schopenhauers way to cope with
the evil in life is to neglegt this "will". To take an outside position, to
reflect on it - to "philosophize", if you want, to participate in art. The
principle of nature, to recognize it and to make your own conclusion out of it
are independent things. This is the difference between Schopenhauer
(Darwinism) and Nietzsche / Peterson (Social Darwinism). Nietsche identifies
with the "Will". He propagates opportunism. "what is supposed to fall, you
should push", "Prey on the weak, obey the strong". Out of the fact, that there
is suffering in the world, he concludes that this is "good", an imperative.
The might / power / will is the only sacred rule he accepts. Even if
christianity seems to represent mercy ethics on the surface, the bible itself
also sanctifys power itself. All power is from god. All power is good. So
Nietzsche was not really anti Christian. He is very christian and religious
regarding opportunism. Of cause "community","society", "the nation", ... =>
the higher order super organisms want individuals to sacrify their individual
goals and to give up strive for happiness and take over "abstract" values
which are the values of others. Mostly these "abstract" values of others (best
example nationalism) caused a lot of suffering. More on side of the people
believing in it than on the side of the people that propagate it. Peterson is
good at rethorics. Beside of that, he s just a religious tradcon with a strong
tendency to fascism. Following the power or opportunism principle of Nietsche
/ Peterson IMHO would result in perpetual holocaust. I prefer Schopenhauer, he
taught to stand up for the weakest: rationality. Even being irrational beings
with evil drives we can find ways to satisfy them without harming others or
ourselfs - or at least reduce harm.

Schopenhauer: live out your irrationality in a rational way versus Nietsche /
Peterson: live out your irrationality with rational reasoning as a tool (under
the the shield of old school values "family", "nation" ...).

~~~
jffhn
>Social Darwinism/"what is supposed to fall, you should push"

I always wondered how one could misinterpret natural laws, that whatever you
do you cannot not obey, as human commandments, that you can obey or not.

Considering that Darwin findings would command us to ignore the weak (or that
any knowledge could command anything, for that matter), is like considering
that sending rockets into space would be an offense to the law of gravity, and
that it would command us to spend our lives crawling on the ground like
snakes.

(In the case of Nietzsche, maybe that's the "Will" subconsciously manipulating
the puppet of consciousness, as a defense mechanism against the purposeless
void reached by thinking through the irrationality of life).

~~~
DrLindemann
It is a (short term) self enforcing principle, that is the pitty. Like in
other ideologies. Civilization should mitigate such effects. And in some cases
suceeded. So progress might be possible and should be thought of. But not in
changing people or the "nature" of people. There has been progress in history
(also backfalls). We would not have warm houses or water supply or electricity
if someone had not believed in making a better life.

------
danielovichdk
Non fiction and super depression and full of pain, is everything Bukowski has
written.

Love his books. He sees right through it all and doesn't give a fuck. At all.

~~~
cainxinth
I’m not sure he “sees right through it.” His his view is sorta clouded by
cynicism. The world is not all bad, after all. Or at least not as bad as he
makes it out to be.

Full agreement on his not giving a fuck though. He’s the kinda guy that would
fart at a party and then laugh at the people offended by it.

~~~
mercer
I love Bukowski but reading his work as 'seeing through' things doesn't strike
me as a good approach. His 'seeing through' involved a lot of fucked up stuff,
among them what seems like a rather unhealthy relationship with alcohol.

An alcoholic plays life on extra hard mode. No wonder the conclusion is
cynical!

------
082349872349872
How is _Meditations on Violence_ supposed to convey the brutality of life as
well as the other titles?

My takeaway from it was that people are generally nonviolent, with a few
(taxonomised) exceptions.

(My meta-takeaway from it is that poor intellectuals in the US have it much
harder than rich intellectuals, but can still pay their dues and eventually
make their own way.)

~~~
exolymph
WARNING: NSFL. Do not keep reading if you're not prepared to hear something
truly horrible.

Here's a quote from the book: "We had an inmate in custody who had cut open a
baby with a tin can lid and raped the wound. If someone can do that, do you
think he will hesitate at all before gouging your eye out or biting off a
finger?"

~~~
papeda
I wish this comment had a NSFL tag at the beginning. I did not want to read
that, and it comes out of nowhere relative to its parent comment.

More generally, I think there's a difference between "meditation on brutality"
and "misery porn", and that the latter sometimes gets dressed up as the
former.

~~~
exolymph
Fair enough, I'll add a warning.

Edit: I wanted to demonstrate the stupidity of this question: "How is
Meditations on Violence supposed to convey the brutality of life as well as
the other titles?"

The quote is not representative of the general tenor of the book, but it is
representative of why that question is dumb.

------
alextheparrot
Another comment mentioned Grossman, I put _Life and Fate_ down after a
particularly brutal, yet humanising scene. I do want to get back to it, it was
just all too much. I don’t have the appropriate callouses to tolerate war in
the same way.

Conrad McCarthy I feel has staked his claim in what I’d reductively call dark
westerns. _The Road_ , for example, is a simple story about a man and his
child, but in hell only demons. I’ll have to add the listed one to my growing
collection, it reminds me of it.

Communicating the meaning of life through the brutality of it has the distinct
advantage about being able to explore the death, pain, suffering, and, the
descent into an evil in intricate detail. It is a proof by contraction in some
respects that certain personal philosophies derived from existentialism need,
but also much more than that.

------
oedmarap
For nonfiction along these lines I would recommend reading Arthur
Schopenhauer, Albert Camus, Friedrich Nietzsche, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, but
most of all Primo Levi.

And for fiction it wouldn't hurt to add Fyodor Dostoevsky, Jose Saramago, and
Gabriel Garcia Marquez as well.

------
sre79chn
Dhammapada
[https://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/index.html](https://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/index.html)

------
rainworld
Nick Land’s _Hell-Baked_ [0]

 _Specifically, it is solely by way of the relentless, brutal culling of
populations that any complex or adaptive traits have been sieved — with
torturous inefficiency — from the chaos of natural existence._

[0]:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20200203215527/http://www.xenosy...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200203215527/http://www.xenosystems.net/hell-
baked/)

------
rsync
This is an interesting list. I strongly recommend _The Good Earth_ which is
one of the best books I have ever read.

In the non-fiction category, I would nominate _Rising Up and Rising Down_[1]
by William T. Vollmann. There is a single, abridged volume. It's a grand,
sweeping, beautiful and fascinating work.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Up_and_Rising_Down](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Up_and_Rising_Down)

------
pmoriarty
I would recommend Thomas Bernhard's _" Yes"_ (aka _" Ja"_).

------
faeyanpiraat
Woah this is pretty dark, but a very good read.

“I mourn for the people I know who are dying, which is all of them, but some
much quicker than others.”

Looking at older people and animals around me, and instantly thinking “well,
they probably don’t have much time left” is quite depressing.

There was a Sam Harris podcast episode where he and his guest argued about
whether is it better to suffer through life, or not existing at all.

~~~
ciarannolan
The podcast, for anyone interested: [https://samharris.org/podcasts/107-life-
actually-worth-livin...](https://samharris.org/podcasts/107-life-actually-
worth-living/)

> In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris speaks with David
> Benatar about his philosophy of “anti-natalism.” They discuss the asymmetry
> between the good and bad things in life, the ethics of existential risk, the
> moral landscape, the limits and paradoxes of introspection, the “experience
> machine” thought experiment, population ethics, and other topics.

------
byproxy
Fiction: “2666” by Roberto Bolaño, “Captivity” by György Spiró (though this
one edges close to “non-fiction”)

Non-fiction: “Evicted” by Matthew Desmond, “Chernobyl Prayer” by Svetlana
Alexievich

------
pjs_
Nas said it best [https://youtu.be/ch25kKo6QUo](https://youtu.be/ch25kKo6QUo)

------
refurb
I’m reading Savage Continent (Keith Lowe) which covers Europe in the years
after VE Day.

I’ll just say the brutality of humans didn’t end with the war.

------
lolptdr
I immediately thought of the "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair: dark, despairing,
depressing.

------
kkdsafjid
Let's not forget about the pleasures of communism. "One Day in the Life of
Ivan Denisovich" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn might be a worthwhile read.

~~~
decebalus1
When it comes to the brutality of life, I think we're well above political
ideologies. Let's not forget
[http://guantanamodiary.com/](http://guantanamodiary.com/)

------
Disruptive_Dave
I would add several Palahniuk books and How I Became Stupid by Martin Page.

~~~
petecooper
>several Palahniuk books

Could you recommend a couple for me to start with, please? Thank you.

~~~
Disruptive_Dave
I just happened to reread about 7 of them that I haven't touched in 12+ years.
My vote is Lullaby then Diary. Then consider Choke. Rant is excellent, but
it's in a unique format in that it's written as an "oral biography" so it's
sort of like one big interview of a bunch of characters.

~~~
notduncansmith
Lullaby was excellent, I will second the recommendation.

------
cafard
Hard to beat the last line of "Nobody Writes to the Colonel."

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voldacar
Surprised there is no Schopenhauer on this list

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slothtrop
Fiction: "Blindness" \- Jose Saramago

~~~
cgh
“Hunger” by Knut Hamsun

