
Do you think lawyers overcharge for their services? - kaisix
For those who have ever retained the services of lawyers for their startups, do you think that those lawyers have overcharged or are overcharging you.<p>Is there a way to know when a lawyer is overcharging ?
======
PaulHoule
Depends on the lawyer.

I've met lawyers who charge $350 for a handshake.

I have met other lawyers who do a huge amount of work for a small amount of
money in a context where I end up learning just how I don't know what I am
doing and they do.

I have copied consulting contracts out of Nolo Press books and had the other
party refuse to sign them.

I have had lawyers look at a contract and realize it didn't make any sense at
all.

I worked at a startup which had a high concentration of ex-lawyers who wanted
to get into startup life and some of them were highly effective at dealing
with huge clients, in fact they carried the business on their shoulders.

------
CyberFonic
Depends on the law firm:

If they have a spacious reception area with marble floors, huge reception
desk, luxuriously appointed meeting room in a high rise mid-town office block
and 20+ well connected partners -- then probably.

If the lawyer has medium sized offices and lots of work in progress and a
minimum of frills but not too shabby -- then most likely reasonable rates.

In any case, ask for references and follow them up. Firms tend to specialise
and you may want to find one who has experience with comparable startups.

------
davismwfl
I think it is like any profession, there are good and bad ones and there are
some that provide lots of value and others that make it their mission to gouge
every client for every penny. The biggest lesson I have about attorneys in
general is same advice I give people when they go to the doctor. Don't just
blindly trust what they tell you, challenge them, educate yourself on the
issues and if they won't discuss it with you intelligently, find someone else.

In my personal experience I have found that when I find a good lawyer they are
worth every penny they charge regardless of the rate. The best lawyer I ever
had was a $450/hr partner in a smaller firm but he was spectacular and what he
would bill me an hour for I had other lawyers in the past bill 1/2 day for, so
his value was high but his quality was also stellar. On the face of it his
original $5k retainer didn't feel like it was buying much, but after seeing
how productive he was and how good he is, he's worth more than what he
charges. He specializes in employment and contract employment law, nothing
else, so a fairly narrow focus by many standards but still a big area IMO.

Other times I have been gouged. One I hired to provide me with pros/cons of
specific business legal structures I was contemplating for asset protection
and separation of risks. She came back to me after charging $1,000 with a 1
paragraph memo that told me to do whatever cause they would all be equal in
protection. I challenged her but learned she just was a moron when it came to
understanding risk mitigation and asset protection even though she advertised
it and was recommended by another lawyer. When I took her memo and my requests
to a firm that had more of a reputation they took ~4 hours and gave me back a
5 page memo of recommendation based on pros/cons and had I followed the
original advice I could've put a ton of stuff at risk.

Just my 2 cents too, I don't think woman vs man, or old vs young makes a damn
bit of difference overall. Experience does matter, but I wouldn't choose or
disregard anyone over anything but bad recommendations or poor quality of
work.

One last point, as you asked about overcharging which I gave you some personal
experiences around value etc. But something else I have seen many firms
charging monthly retainers in the multiple thousands of dollars for startups
to have an attorney on call. I do not subscribe to this nor recommend it in
general. Yes you need to retain a solid attorney and firm to get them familiar
with your business and help setup the initial contracts etc. But there is no
way you need a $3000/month retainer when just starting out like I have seen
happening in the past few years. Same with accounting, you don't need a $3000
accountant retainer every month to book 30 transactions. You can hire a
consulting book keeper to do that work and have an accounting firm review
quarterly for a lot less money. A caveat, if you are negotiating enterprise
deals or dealing with a highly regulated business then the attorney on a
monthly may well be necessary early on, even before you have real revenue.

