
Low-income students feel left out at Stanford - tokenadult
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/31/BAIMVHBG9.DTL
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smanek
What more can Stanford really do?

He goes there tuition free, his room and board are free, and he gets
subsidized work during the summer. It was two weeks between when the semester
ended and he started receiving his summer work paychecks - he really couldn't
have saved up enough cash to cover two weeks over the course of a year?

On top of all that, he frankly has no right to be at Stanford with a 1300 on
his SAT. I had a friend who was rejected from Stanford even though he was
class valedictorian (at a ludicrously competitive school), captain of several
school teams, and had a 1590 SAT.

He might be a bit bright, but Stanford has already bent over backwards to
accommodate him. It's his fault if he isn't willing to do a little work
himself. How hard is it to do 10 hours/week of research (paying $15/hr) during
the school year? I (and most other people I know) often do so. He'd have
several thousand dollars saved up without too much trouble (since Stanford is
already paying all his expenses).

~~~
tokenadult
_he frankly has no right to be at Stanford with a 1300 on his SAT_

What establishes a right to be at Stanford?

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Why are people upmodding this? The intent of the OP was clear to me: schools
are supposed to be a meritocracy, and if his friend was much more qualified
and got rejected, why is this guy there?

~~~
tokenadult
If schools are to be a meritocracy, what constitutes sufficient merit to get
into Stanford? That was the thrust of my informational question, and I'd be
happy to hear responses from anyone who has an opinion on that issue.

~~~
zasz
Some minimal standard of intellectual ability and interest. That really
shocked me when I got to Stanford. I met people who'd gone to fairly decent
high schools who were taking what was basically remedial math, and plenty more
people who didn't really seem that interested in their classes or majors. I
had a reaction similar to the OP when I saw that kid had a 1300. I knew plenty
of smart, motivated people with better test scores who they could have still
drawn a very diverse class from.

~~~
qw
I'm not an American, so I don't know what a 1300 score says about a person.
But if I was Stanford, I would be interested in the potential of a person, and
not just what they have done. There are lots of "smart" people who are best in
their class, but falls behind when they start at a higher level of education.

There may be many reasons why Stanford wanted to give him a chance.

Perhaps they saw something more in him? Perhaps he had a part time job his
last year, so that he couldn't spend so much time perfecting his score? He can
now focus 100% on Stanford without worrying about money (most of the time),
and can probably more than keep up with the "elite".

The article also mention that students who come from families who can afford
more, spend money on better high schools, SAT preparation, private teachers
etc. to get a high score. In that case, a 1300 might not be so bad, when
others need so much extra help.

~~~
tokenadult
_I'm not an American, so I don't know what a 1300 score says about a person._

Here's a current chart showing how many students in the most recently reported
high school class (students who graduated from high school in 2008) scored at
different levels as a sum of scores from the critical reading section (200 to
800 standard score points possible, scores rounded to the nearest ten) and
from the math section (same scoring) when they took the SAT for their best
individual total score for one sitting.

[http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat_perce...](http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat_percentile_ranks_2008_composite_cr_m.pdf)

Although you are not an American, you have a good understanding of what else
college admission committees look for besides high test scores alone. Your
other comments mention several issues that admission committees claim to look
at when deciding on applications.

Stanford's most recently reported interquartile ranges for SAT section scores
of enrolled first-year students are here:

[http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.j...](http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=3387&profileId=6)

Please note that a few years ago, when the student mentioned in the newspaper
article was admitted, the ranges would have been a bit lower.

------
johnswamps
Disclaimer: I am a grad student at Stanford (which definitely makes me low-
income :) Undergrads whose families make under 60k go to Stanford for free and
under 100k don't pay tuition. Yes there are some students who can afford a lot
more than others, but I think Stanford does a pretty good job helping out low-
income students. Obviously all schools could do a better job at attracting
lower income applicants, but I don't know why they're singling out Stanford.

~~~
tokenadult
_I am a grad student at Stanford_

What are typical graduate student stipends these days at Stanford? I have no
idea.

~~~
endtime
I'm a CS master's student at Stanford, which means I don't get funding
automatically. But with a 20 hr/week assistantship (TA or RA) I get my tuition
refunded, which is about $8200, and a roughly $7000 stipend. That's for one
quarter (quarters are Sep-Dec, Jan-Mar, Apr-Jun). It's enough to cover
housing, food, and a little extra...but it's certainly frugal living.

------
ShabbyDoo
I grew up in a small town in Ohio. My mother was a high school librarian and
my father was a unionized janitor. By the standards of our community, we were
considered well-off to the point of being gossiped about a bit. A couple of
weeks into college, I was talking to a friend whose father was a physician. He
asked of my family and then said, "Do you guys do OK?"

------
jacoblyles
"Next fall, he plans to pursue sociology and will enter the Ph.D. program at
the University of Notre Dame in Indiana"

Well, that will certainly not help his socioeconomic status.

During my undergraduate career, we had a speaker come in who was the subject
of a recent novel. Growing up, he was a bright kid who lived in a miserable
ghetto with violent, useless schools. He managed, somehow, to catch the
attention of a local journalist who helped him get into college, where he
excelled.

What did he choose to do with his college education? Did he choose to become
an engineer, or a businessman?

No. He decided to get a PHD in Sociology and become a social worker.

I am mystified by the exceptional poor students that follow this path. Maybe
they pursue subjects like sociology because it tells them that the reason they
grew up poor is that society has wronged them. However, it is certainly an
ineffective way to increase the prospects of themselves and their families.

~~~
mechanical_fish
Perhaps people who have managed to grow up without a lot of money better
understand how to live a happy life with a job that doesn't pay $100k.

Let me quote a very famous person who grew up in poverty, Charles Dickens:

 _Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result
happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought
and six, result misery._

One secret to being happy with a $30k or $40k salary is to maintain a healthy
perspective on your social class: If you know that a lot of people struggle to
live on $18k, your $30k salary will fell fantastically great. Whereas if
everyone you meet has a $150k salary and a trust fund, you'd better have the
same or you will feel poor. Happiness is relative. That's the entire point of
this article.

It's not surprising to find that many of the happiest grad students are people
for whom a grad student salary seems quite adequate, even generous.

~~~
mynameishere
Huh? Charles Dickens was ravenous in the pursuit of money.

~~~
mechanical_fish
Hey, I didn't say this was a _general_ theory of human motivation! This is
merely a _glib_ theory of human motivation!

(Indeed, I don't believe in a general theory of human motivation. Keeping your
lifestyle from creeping up to a range in which you've got to rake in a large
salary to feel adequate is merely _one_ approach to keeping yourself happy.
And it surely doesn't work for everyone.)

------
numair
I don't really understand this article. He was living in his Jeep? Didn't he
bother making friends? I thought the whole point of college was to engage in
Lord-of-the-Flies-style social hacking? That "one red paperclip" guy needs to
teach this kid a thing or two...

~~~
smokey_the_bear
I agree this article was a little weird. But it can be hard to make friends
across economic disparities. You can't join them for lunch out, or a weekend
ski trip, or chip in towards the keg. The one red paper clip guy worked
because it was a novelty. The rich kids at Stanford would eventually get tired
of buying this guy lunch in exchange for paper clips or whatever, and he'd get
tired of asking.

~~~
numair
No way. Really rich people LOVE hard-working poor people -- it plays into the
whole theory that smart, hard-working Americans will always come out ahead.
Also, really rich people often understand that they are simply not as focused
or motivated as the hard-charging kids who NEED to make their own money. This
is useful for future business ventures, or if the family company needs to hire
some young smart people.

The kids in this article sound totally lame, and seem to use their lack of
income as an excuse for hating their wealthier peers. Yeah, a lot of rich
people are utterly hilariously out of touch with the world, but that doesn't
mean they wouldn't want to be your friend and do things with you. If you feel
there is some sort of major tension, it's got more to do with you and your
insecurities than with your affluent peers. In fact, if some rich kid were to
act like a total snob to you because of your lack of money, there is ALWAYS a
MUCH richer kid who would love nothing more than to have an opportunity to say
to the snob, "dude, shut up - my family can buy yours ten times over." (True
story.)

This isn't some theory of mine, either -- I'm pretty much the poorest person
in my neighborhood, which has taught me quite a lot...

------
zasz
It sucks that he had to live in his Jeep, but--Stanford has a lot of work-
study positions reserved especially for students like him. He can earn $12-$14
an hour shelving books and spend half the time studying. He could do research
in sociology and get room, board, and a little money left over during the
summer when he's not getting sizable fellowships from the Haas Center. In
fact, if he did research, he wouldn't have to lose any housing at all! If he's
still not able to find housing for two weeks, something's wrong with his money
management ability or ability to seize the plentiful opportunities Stanford
gives him on top of his free tuition, room, and board.

It sucks that he feels like a fish out of water, but come _on_ \--imagine how
much worse it is for an international student. I knew a kid in my freshman
dorm who had never seen a pumpkin before, didn't know what the hell it was.
It's equally bad for someone who was an introvert, chronically shy, dumped
into a dorm full of loud parties where someone was always going to the ER
every weekend because they'd drunk too much. He has it pretty good, and I
believe that Stanford has done the most it can at this point.

I'm slightly shocked that he also says he's moving to a poorer part of the
country to get away from all us rich kids. Nobody I've ever met at Stanford
has shown any disrespect or distaste for poor students. One of the most
popular staff members in my co-op's getting the whole free ride from Stanford,
plus tons of work-study opportunities. It's very sad that he's leaving because
of some insecurity that's only in his own head.

------
mynameishere
_He scored 1,320 out of 1,600 on the SAT._

That's the only part that stood out for me. I did a lot better than that but
never dreamed of going to Stanford.

------
elecengin
I attend(ed? graduating soon!) a college where all students received a full
tuition scholarship - regardless of socioeconomic status. Besides being an
effective "carrot" to attract students to a new engineering school (or, in
some cases, persuading parents to allow their children to attend a new
school), it was developed to help alleviate such disparities.

Yet I see the same difficulties as Stanford - the school is very competitive
for admission, and there is little chance for some students to attend simply
because there is no way they could have prepared themselves to be competitive.

As a side note, despite a generous endowment, my college is investigating
charging a portion of tuition. Unfortunately, the harsh economy makes for some
harsh decisions.

------
streblo
"Stanford says it admits the brightest students regardless of their ability to
pay. Yet only 12 percent of Stanford's 6,759 undergraduates receive Pell
Grants, a yardstick used to measure how many low-income students such as Scott
are enrolled."

I think this has a lot more to do with the low quality of education in the
United States (especially for low income families) that leads up to higher
education, and a lot less to do with who Stanford decides to admit.

------
timothychung
Should he consider studying part-time with a part-time job to sustain his life
and interests? Or will he lose his scholarship for doing part-time?

I have learned from life that you don't need to rush as long as you know where
you're heading and you are patient enough to work towards that goal. And there
is no point to compare if you seriously know your strengths and passion. It is
because you will succeed regardless of other people. :-)

~~~
brianr
_Or will he lose his scholarship for doing part-time?_

To answer your question: at Stanford, you have to take at least 12 units per
quarter to be eligible for financial aid, unless you have special
circumstances (i.e. illness). On top of that, I think you can go on academic
probation if you don't take that many credits... Stanford doesn't really want
you to do undergrad part-time.

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asciilifeform
Anyone remember when scholarships were for _scholars_?

------
devin
They might feel left out at Stanford, but people are writing articles about
them, so I don't feel too bad.

