
Dark Patterns in Telsa App - jajag
https://twitter.com/tedstein/status/1219406746868953088
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zwaps
It's interesting that in many countries of the EU, or even in the EU as a
whole, all this is simply not possible. Not because of dark patterns being
illegal, but rather because they would not be profitable.

As an example, in Germany:

First, a contract only exists when - in a somewhat metaphysical sense - two
matching agreements are made. One by Tesla, one by the customer. Accidental
purchases regularly do not constitute an agreement by the customer, which is
why before a court, it would be decided that the contract does not, and in
fact did not exist. Here, it would be especially trivial to show that the
purchase was accidental. Indeed it would probably be enough to have contacted
Tesla after the "purchase". As an implication, Tesla would be forced to roll
back the transaction and eat any costs associated with it.

Second, and of more practical relevance, there is legislation mandating that
anything ordered online can be returned within 14 days, retroactively voiding
the contract. In this case, the customer may need to pay some of the costs
incurred with rolling back the transaction, although there is legislation for
this. In this particular case, a software update, the cost would of course be
zero.

I personally do not see these legislation as a source of friction. They are
simple to implement and fair, and have no impact if one does not rely on
deception.

As others have said, anyone doing business in the EU is aware of these
matters. If these patterns do not exist in the EU version, then Tesla is
employing these patterns for deceptive purposes.

~~~
ryanlol
> in the EU as a whole, all this is simply not possible. Not because of dark
> patterns being illegal, but rather because they would not be profitable.

I don’t understand this argument. It costs Tesla literally nothing to reverse
these purchases. They’d still make a profit from everyone who doesn’t request
a refund.

~~~
ganoushoreilly
Their next argument would be on reversing the unlocks on the vehicle. Unless
they're blowing e-fuses to unlock features I don't really see how it should be
an issue.

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dangus
I don’t understand. The screenshots seem to contradict what is being said
here.

You have to enter in complete billing details to accidentally make this
purchase. For Apple Pay I can only assume that the standard Apple Pay
confirmation window comes up, which cannot be triggered in your pocket. If
that window comes up and you authorize a $4,000 purchase I don’t see how
that’s Tesla’s fault.

All the text that’s claimed to be hard to see seems plain as day to me.

The claim that one of the people seems to be making to Tesla support, that
they never had the app open at all when this purchase took place, seems kind
of questionable. I don’t see any way that’s possible.

Now, I agree that putting shit in your shopping cart by default isn’t a good
practice but this isn’t exactly a shopping app, either. You wouldn’t go the
upgrades section or checkout with anything unless you were looking to buy
upgrades? I don’t own a Tesla, I don’t know.

I do agree that the policy of no refunds ever is nonsense. The software can
most definitely be disabled or removed, and if Tesla isn’t using some kind of
package manager, shame on them. The analogy of the house addition is total
garbage.

See, what you need to do with customer service in these situations is to just
tell them that they can give you the refund or that you’ll take care of it
through a chargeback to your bank. That’s their two options. Companies process
your refund 99% of the time after you say those magic words (just don’t do
this for things like your Steam account where a permanent ban will be a
hardship).

The last thing: I had to laugh at the letter that started with “Dear Sirs.”
Made the whole thing impossible to take seriously.

------
cmurf
So this misleading UI exists in U.S. versions of the app? But not in EU
versions? Strongly suggested they know this is deceptive, or even fraud.

~~~
Traster
No, the issue here is that the Tesla App now allows you to buy a software
upgrade package by just tapping through a few screens and the $4k package is
added to your cart by default. They don't offer refunds (unless you're
internet famous). Practically all other apps require fingerprint or
password/code for purchases. Tesla doesn't - and their default checkout basket
has $4k worth of unrefundable stuff in it, which is hilarious bad.

The EU/US is a separate historical issue where Tesla states on its website the
cost of the vehicle incorrectly - the cost includes the federal tax credit
(which you can reasonably expect to get) and _$8k_ in gas savings (which is
just a made up number based on random assumptions about how, where, when you
drive). Imagine if BMW told you the cost of your vehicle including the gas
savings you'd make versus driving a hummer. In the EU lying about the price of
a product is illegal, so Tesla display the real price in the EU without their
bullshit "savings".

~~~
jiofih
The screenshots show that _the app requires clear authorization_ for
purchasing the upgrade.

Either you use Apple Pay with a fingerprint, or you have to _enter credit card
details_ and press a button that says “Pay $4000”. This is impossible to do by
accident.

~~~
nmcfarl
I might have been miss informed, but I was told that it’s storing your credit
card details so that if you’ve already made a credit card purchase from the
Tesla app you could just hit The “Pay 4000” button on that final screen. And I
couldn’t find anything in this thread that confirmed or denied that, though
reading things on Twitter...

