
How I work as a digital nomad - gregjor
http://typicalprogrammer.com/how-i-work-as-a-digital-nomad/
======
bshimmin
This is a wonderful case of "one man's meat is another man's poison" \- he
mentions in the closing paragraph how being a "digital nomad" has "improv[ed
his] quality of life", and yet throughout his extremely pragmatic and
practical guide to that lifestyle, all I can really see are all sorts of
compromises.

The thought of sitting in a beach hut somewhere warm and sunny, typing away on
a MacBook, does certainly sound very appealing. The rest of it - washing your
bland travel clothes in a hotel shower with "hotel shampoo" \- would surely
grow pretty tiresome after a month or two, if you're in any way used to and
appreciative of a comfortable lifestyle.

I write this from my "three monitors and a special chair" (quite literally)
and I will, in fact, be writing some "brand-new Python code" later...

(I'm also fascinated by this guy's predilection for doing maintenance work and
fixing broken projects - I can hardly imagine anything worse!)

~~~
coldtea
> _all I can really see are all sorts of compromises._

Well, staying in the same house/appartment, seeing the same people over and
over, commuting in traffic, going to the same office to have meetings the the
same PHB, etc etc also involves "all sorts of compromises". Even if you
freelance and you don't have the office thing, there's still the rot in your
everyday life.

>* The rest of it - washing your bland travel clothes in a hotel shower with
"hotel shampoo" \- would surely grow pretty tiresome after a month or two, if
you're in any way used to and appreciative of a comfortable lifestyle.*

You'd be surprised. I've lived in both kinds of situations (and on/off) and
some people just feel great with that too. After all it's just a "first world
problem" of the bigger calibre ("oh, I miss my big fridge and and my huge
monitor").

But even those "incoveniences" can be overcome if you don't like it. With
something like $800/month you can have a huge house in some parts of SE Asia,
with a pool, and with your personal assistant to cook, clean the house, wash
clothes etc. Better than what most of us have "back at home" actually.

~~~
bshimmin
I totally get that different people want very different things, and I do
understand that commuting and meetings are part of the rut of compromise that
most people feel they have to tolerate, but some people feel a burning desire
to escape. I'm probably biased against this sort of lifestyle right now
because I have a young family which would make being a "digital nomad"
impossible; and perhaps there's a twinge of jealousy in there because I do
enjoy travelling and periodically get a little sick of rainy England. (On the
bright side, I don't have much of a commute right now...)

I'm not sure having a huge house with a pool and a maid could really be
considered a nomadic lifestyle. :-)

~~~
coldtea
>* I'm probably biased against this sort of lifestyle right now because I have
a young family which would make being a "digital nomad" impossible;*

Yeah. You can always try it later, when the kids grow up and leave (I think
the guy in TFA mentions he has already worked for "30 years" in normal
offices, which would imply that too). Or can go for a month or so, during they
school vacations. You work, and the kids have their holidays in the same
remote place. Kids can grow to enjoy travel and its culture -- though I
wouldn't take them away from their regular school and friends.

> _I 'm not sure having a huge house with a pool and a maid could really be
> considered a nomadic lifestyle. :-)_

Well, if you have that house each time in a different city / country, I think
it still qualifies!

~~~
seanmcdirmid
We use holidays to reverse migrate from Asia to Europe, just rent a place for
a couple of weeks and do work.

Beijing has a lot of environmental problems, so it is important to get out
often.

~~~
zodiac
What does "reverse migrate" mean?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I live in Asia and am instead a part time nomad in the west.

------
song
I'm not a digital nomad per se but I think I found a good compromise. Instead
of traveling often like he does and dealing with having to travel light and
not having all of the conforts, I move to a different country every year or so
while still keeping all my customers in the US.

I find that it's the best of both world, I have time to discover any country I
move to and really get to know the culture. It's also much easier on my
clients because it's easy for them to know how to reach me and I'm sure I
always have a good internet connection.

One thing I do recommend though is getting an expat health insurance like GMC,
BUPA, A+, AETNA, ... It's a bit of an expense (I'm in my 30s and pay
$220/month with a deductible of $1200/year for coverage anywhere in the world
except Canada and US) but I think it's important for the peace of mind that it
procures.

~~~
vecinu
I think you deserve your own blog post as well.

I'm currently working remotely through some extremely lucky means (Company I
worked with full-time let me work remotely for a year) and I would love to
continue doing this full-time.

My biggest hurdle is finding a company that is interested in hiring a junior-
intermediate remote worker. I just recently officially graduated and only have
2 years of 'real' experience and it seems most companies that offer remote
work are looking for workers with 5+ years of experience.

When did you start this lifestyle? Do you find the benefits outweigh the
positives? How do you balance having a family/wife/children?

~~~
song
I had 4 years of experience when I started freelancing. I quit my job with
enough reserve to last one year and an half and moved to Southeast Asia.

I still continued to do a bit of work for my previous company but it was
actually very difficult finding new clients and if I were to do it again I'd
recommend not doing what I did.

It took me about a year before I found new clients with enough work to support
me. Part of the reason for that is that it took me a while before I could
actually force myself to work productively at home without anyone breathing
down my neck. I found my clients with a combination of blog post and
contributions to open source projects.

I don't have a family and children, I have a girlfriend who does remote work
as a graphic designer so it works out well for us.

I really like the life I have now but it's true that it's not for everyone,
working at home is not easy for a lot of people (I do recommend checking out
local co-working spaces for this). You also have to enjoy spending time
learning new languages and trying to adapt to a culture that's different from
your own. Moving to a new place and getting everything ready can be stressful
(I tend to be easy going by nature so that doesn't bother me)

If I had children, I'm not sure what I would do.

------
jawngee
I kind of do this, though I hate the digital nomad moniker.

I used to split time between NYC and Vietnam. NYC for client work, Vietnam for
bootstrapping my publishing platform ( _shameless plug_ our eat your own dog
food first magazine is coming out soon:
[http://vimeo.com/100580125](http://vimeo.com/100580125)). However, for the
last year, I've been in Vietnam full time, giving up my apartment in NYC and
"relocating" to Nevada for tax purposes. I did this partly because I was
getting closer to finishing up the first phase of the publishing project, but
also because I found out I was going to be a father ;)

The hardest part is keeping work coming in at a constant enough rate. In NYC I
was always booked solid, 24/7, but in Vietnam it comes and goes in spurts.
Partly because some of the work I did in NYC has hardware requirements that
can't be met here in Vietnam (large retail experiential installs) and partly
because business is slow for my main client. Finding new clients to fill the
gaps has required some serious email/linkedin networking hustle, but it can be
done.

I've had people interested in hiring me for local projects, but I've had a
hard time lowering my rates to a level acceptable for both parties. Even
though they are regaled by the amount of experience, developing countries
might not be so focused on quality over quantity. Which is OK.

If you take the time to get TEFL certification, that's a possible fall back.
I'm a college drop out, so that's no bueno.

Anyways, wouldn't trade the experience for anything. YMMV.

~~~
intellegacy
thinking of going to vietnam for boostrapping burposes, just wondering how you
chose it and what city? what kind of rent are u paying per month?

~~~
jawngee
I came here about 3 years ago to train some iPhone devs for a friend's
company. Ended up making a lot of friends out here in the process. Even though
it's mostly an illusion, there is a certain sense of freedom here. It's also
the safest of the SE Asian countries, imho.

I live in a more upscale part of Saigon, so my rent isn't typical. But
compared to what I was paying in NYC, it's not a lot. I pay $700 for a 2
bedroom in a high rise, about $100 for electricity. I have fiber internet,
40mbps, which is about $75 a month. 3G on my phone is about $5-10 a month. The
sum of all of that is almost a quarter of what I was paying in NYC every
month.

~~~
ndomin
how is the language barrier? do you speak decent vietnamese or can you get by
with mostly english?

~~~
AYBABTME
In Saigon you can get around with only english. In other cities, it varies and
I'd recommend learning some vietnamese or having local friends.

------
jwblackwell
The point about the type of work you're willing to accept is critical. In my
experience freelancing, the clients that pay the best and offer the best
projects will want to meet you occasionally at least. They'll also want
commitment of a number of regular hours.

So seeing as that's out the window you'll probably end up having to fill the
in between good project time with jobs from Elance etc . Be prepared to deal
with some horrible code :)

~~~
gregjor
My main clients all pay a monthly retainer for a block of my time. I don't do
piecework through eLance or oDesk. My hourly rate puts my annual gross in the
same range as my friends in Silicon Valley.

If you want to do projects from scratch or work for startups that's a
different situation, and you probably would need to participate with a team.
For the kind of work I do it's not important where I am or what I'm wearing.

------
padobson
_I took a contract with a company that had a profitable and almost-working
web-based business. They had fired their original developers over a contract
dispute._

He's right about the high demand for maintenance contracts. The majority of my
client base comes from this exact story.

In fact, you can make a lot of money just finding a bad or prima-dona
developer that specializes in the same technologies as you, and cleaning up
the wake of destruction they create.

~~~
gregjor
Exactly. The startup tech bros are just a job creation scheme for me.

------
FLUX-YOU
>There are agencies and recruiters who specialize in matching freelancers with
projects, seek them out and establish a relationship.

Can anyone here make some recommendations from experience?

I feel like I'd need to be a 'rockstarninjahacker' before taking remote jobs
and being able to complete them (and demand enough to pay for this lifestyle)

~~~
ohashi
Can't help you with the first one.

But feeling like you need to be a rockstarninjahacker is garbage. Many of my
clients have no idea how to evaluate my code. The question is - can you get it
done? On time? At price? to get to that point - it's do we trust you? Working
on your communication skills will probably get you much further than improving
your technical skills for finding/keeping freelance work.

------
homakov
FYI if you are perpetual traveler and stay less than 3/6 months in every
country, you won't be tax resident anywhere which means no taxes at all.
Doesn't work for US citizens. (I'm Russian who travels for last 3 years and I
don't owe taxes to any country)

~~~
Luc
Most European countries won't allow you to change your place of residence
without sufficient documentation of your residence in a different country,
e.g. work permits, proof of residence in new country, etc. Otherwise it would
be all to easy to skip on paying taxes in your home country.

Perhaps in Russia it's a bit... easier?

~~~
homakov
It is easy, just not all people know about it. Rule is simple - not be tax
resident and spend < 6 months in your home country. Other proofs aren't
enforced afaik. It's how it works in Russia.

~~~
umami
You are largely relying on just not being caught. Have you asked a tax advisor
about this?

~~~
homakov
There's entire movement of perpetual travelers and laws clearly state it's
legal.

~~~
umami
I am familiar with PTs and I have been traveling since 2007.

It might be perfectly legal for Russian nationals. Since I am not Russian, I
do not know with certainty, which is why I ask if you had checked with an
expert.

------
shubhamjain
One thing successful freelancers often suggest about starting out is emailing
people, selling them solutions on how their site could be fixed / made better.
So far, it hasn't worked for me at all. I contacted various real estate
people, from their websites and mailed them why having a sleek and responsive
look matters and how I can deliver it but didn't got response from any of
them.

May be it stems from the fact that I don't live in the same country as theirs
or their skepticism about my claims but I am interested in knowing how exactly
this thing works and where I am wrong?

~~~
coldtea
> _So far, it hasn 't worked for me at all. I contacted various real estate
> people, from their websites and mailed them why having a sleek and
> responsive look matters and how I can deliver it but didn't got response
> from any of them._

Could be the pitch. Reak estate agents don't care for buzzwords like
"responsive" (like they didn't care for "HTML5" or "semantic"), and they might
think they are already sleek enough (especially if they get the number of
customers they want through those sites).

As a (infrequent) user of real estate sites I also could not care less for
responsive (I won't search for a house from my phone, and most any site
designed for the desktop looks good as is in my iPad too) or sleek (just show
me the facts I need and some good pictures of the real estate).

They could be persuaded if they have business benefits from the change. And
perhaps real estate guys already do well. Perhaps check some business with a
bad website that doesn't do as well -- where a better site could make a
different.

~~~
MadMoogle
I have no idea why this comment was downvoted. This is solid advice.

------
qwerta
Nice list. I would only add three advices to stay productive:

\- stay at each place for minimum of three weeks. It takes some time to find
stores, internet connectivity, meet people etc...

\- make list of stuff you are not going to do, it simplifies your choices.

\- consider to travel with luggage. I carry old 22" display in my :-)

------
AlexNeoNomad
it's a given, if you read a post like this, it'll be about Thailand in some
way.

~~~
stephenr
also a pretty good chance the words “work permit” won’t appear in the article
anywhere.

just because you don’t agree with certain laws, doesnt mean you can just
ignore them.

~~~
gregjor
I didn't use the term "work permit" but I did write "You won’t legally be
allowed to work in the countries you travel to..."

The laws around digital nomads, to say nothing of enforcement, have never been
clear in Thailand. Bans on foreigners working in any country are intended to
prevent foreigners taking jobs away from locals. Digital nomads don't do that.

As it turns out just this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital
nomads to work in Thailand:

[http://asiancorrespondent.com/125980/thai-immigration-
offici...](http://asiancorrespondent.com/125980/thai-immigration-officials-
say-digital-nomads-ok-to-work-on-tourist-visas/)

You still need a visa, of course.

~~~
stephenr
> I did write "You won’t legally be allowed to work in the countries you
> travel to..."

In context, you are clearly talking about working for local companies. In
countries like Thailand, it's illegal to work in any way (even volunteering
falls into this category in Thailand) without a valid visa and work permit.

> have never been clear in Thailand

That's disingenuous at best. Its never been "ideal" but it's always been clear
- if you want to work, you need a visa + work permit. That people working
"online" for foreign entities have largely slipped through the cracks is
irrelevant. Speeding isn't legal or "unclear" just because you don't get
caught every time.

> this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in
> Thailand:

Since i first started looking at the options for working in Thailand about 2
1/2 years ago (and moved here ~ 2 years ago) I've read numerous articles about
these announcements from provincial immigration staff, only to have them
either "clarified" to mean something different, or outright denied as being
incorrect.

~~~
gregjor
You are right that any kind of work in Thailand, including volunteer work,
requires a work permit. But you are leaving out the big gray area in Thailand
between the law and what actually happens. That gray area is small or non-
existent in America or Europe.

In Thailand pornography and sex toys and prostitution are all illegal, but
visibly sold on the main tourist streets. In Thailand driving without a
license will get you a small fine ($6 to $12), and a receipt to show you paid
in case you get stopped in the next 24 hours. In Thailand there are numerous
digital nomad get-togethers and communities and co-working spaces full of
farang with their laptops, operating openly. The many language schools
routinely employ part-time teachers who don't have proper visas and work
permits.

As an American I've been trained to obey the law, and I understand that
breaking the law leads to well-defined penalties (unless I'm a banker or a
politician). Thais, on the other hand, treat the law (and road markings) as
suggestions, with penalties that have flexible and often on-the-spot
enforcement denominated in baht. So while you are right about what the law
says, the reality of how it's interpreted and enforced are more important in
Thailand.

~~~
stephenr
I'm well aware that many laws are not enforced well if at all in Thailand, but
that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Generalising about 70 million people as if they are all the same isn't a great
way to identify as anything other than a middle-aged farrang who wants a young
brown girl(s) in his bed.

~~~
gregjor
Wow, great ad hominem attack. I didn't say the laws don't exist -- I
acknowledged that. How you went from my observations of life in Thailand to
calling me a sexpat says something about you. That wasn't part of anything I
wrote.

If anyone wants to read more of this kind of thing there's an entire forum for
know-it-all expat jerks called ThaiVisa.com.

Maybe I'm generalizing about the Thai attitude about the law, but you can
observe it every day all over Thailand. It's no more a generalization than
saying Thais like spicy food.

~~~
stephenr
> I didn't say the laws don't exist

No but you suggested that they can be treated as non existent because of lax
enforcement/punishment, and then go on to complain about other people
(apparently an entire country at that!) not following them - if you don't
agree the laws should be followed, why are you complaining about other people
not following them?

> How you went from my observations of life in Thailand to calling me a sexpat
> says something about you

It's generally sexpats who come to Thailand for some "brown strange", make no
effort to learn anything about the culture or the people, and make sweeping
generalisations, exactly like you have done.

> Maybe I'm generalizing about the Thai attitude about the law, but you can
> observe it every day all over Thailand. It's no more a generalization than
> saying Thais like spicy food.

The irony here is at level: ridiculous. Have you ever met any Thai people and
actually spoken to them?

Let me make it crystal clear in case you can't work it out:

Not every Thai is a bad driver

Not every Thai flaunts laws/rules

Not every Thai enjoys or can even eat spicy food

Not every Thai is just a poor brown girl/boy waiting for a "rich" white prince
to make her/his life better.

~~~
gregjor
I give up. You win. I should have disclosed that I have never met a Thai
person or spoken to one since I've been living here. And I've never driven
here or seen any Thais driving. I've never seen any Thais flaunt the laws, or
eat spicy food. In fact the only people I've met in Thailand have been drunk
middle-aged men on Soi Cowboy looking for "brown strange."

Also I can't read or "work out" what smarter and better-informed people like
stephenr mean, I need it spelled out, in English. I am not equipped to
understand or respond to the close reading and careful parsing of language
stephenr has demonstrated.

Actually I've never even been to Thailand, I made everything up. Kudos to
stephenr for deducing so much from my comments and exposing me, calling me out
on my delusions, and setting the record straight.

~~~
stephenr
> I've never driven here or seen any Thais driving. I've never seen any Thais
> flaunt the laws, or eat spicy food.

You didn't claim to have "seen this". You claimed "everyone does it". This
would be like me claiming all americans insist on cheese with every meal and
get confused between Austria and Australia.

> Also I can't read or "work out" what smarter and better-informed people like
> stephenr mean, I need it spelled out, in English

I'm commenting on your posts, and my own observations of life in Thailand.
Several times you've made broad generalisations about various topics in
Thailand, all of which are demonstrably false.

When I called you on said generalisation, you proceeded to make ANOTHER
generalisation. How do you expect people to react to that?

------
nchuhoai
i graduated in May and made becoming a digital nomad a goal of mine.

I'm surprised by the number of people that try to get clients, as far as
reaching out to "random" real estate agencies for work.

Out of curiosity, what makes that the preferred way over trying to get a
single employer that allows you to work remotely part-time?

I agree that it might be slightly more difficult initially, but IMO it's worth
it as you don't have to deal with having to get new clients, manage with your
current ones. I actually got really lucky that I find my company as it put
enough faith in me as a recent college grad.

IMO, the only reason for me to take on new clients is for a significantly
higher rate?

~~~
enjo
High there! I'm a CTO at ever-growing fully remote company (every single
employee is remote). While I have no doubt you can find a company willing to
hire you as a digital nomad, I definitely have a bunch of reservations about
it.

We've had folks on the move quite a bit in the past (including traveling
around in an RV). The biggest issue is that they tend not to be quite as
plugged in as everyone else. Internet connections always seem to be spotty and
there always seems to be other issues tugging at their attention (finding
places to work, exploring, etc..).

That doesn't mean they produced bad work (often it was very good), but it came
at the expense of the rest of the team. When we needed them to answer a
question or hop into a quick discussion they often weren't around. It's just a
bad dynamic as far as the rest of the team goes.

We do hire contractors for very specific and targeted projects. In that mode
nomads are just fine! They don't need to fit into the broader team in a
meaningful way and there is no expectation that they will. They come in for a
few weeks or months and then move on. It works well and both sides are really
happy with the arrangement.

Point being, you might have better luck both finding a job and being
successful at it if you're looking less for full-time roles and more for
contract positions that complement the type of lifestyle you want to pursue.

