
Why I’m Never Going Back to Penny Arcade Expo - replicatorblog
http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/09/penny-arcade-expo-dickwolves/
======
mpyne
I'm kind of torn... I've lost a child to SIDS, but I would not tell people
that they can't make dead baby jokes at risk of revictimizing me. So many
people have a pain point of some sort in their lives that if we go down that
route there will be nothing left but PC-compatible sayings perfectly fit for a
poster in corporate America.

But at the same time the _reaction_ to the controversy around the comic has
been all types of screwed up by Gabe.

Right or wrong, people have made it clear that the dickwolves thing makes them
feel physically uneasy (at best). Whether it's _right_ for people to feel that
way is basically immaterial by this point; the argument was lost long ago, and
Gabe is chasing after a train that is long departed.

So while I don't doubt that Gabe (and Tycho) do not _literally_ support people
being raped, they have been told in no uncertain terms that is how many people
_perceive_ support for "Dickwolves". Any further push for 'free speech' there
must come as a package with instilling a culture of rape... again, even if
that's not how they _mean_ for it to be perceived, that doesn't change the
reality of how it _is_ being perceived.

I empathize with Gabe's greater point, but the fact is that he needs to start
choosing different battles if he wants to win this 'war'. This particular
battle was lost long ago.

~~~
mynewwork
So, did anyone actually read the comic? A slave is pleading to be rescued, and
brings up that in addition to being a SLAVE he also gets raped.

There is nothing 'supporting rape' in the comic or the joke. Rape is used
because it's literally the worst possible thing, that if even being a slave
wasn't enough to make the hero care, maybe that would.

The joke is "The hero only cares about his quest, not the suffering of the
victims". Slavery and rape were used because they were the two worst possible
things the victims could be suffering from. How does anyone go from that to
suggesting the artist is supporting rape?

~~~
DannoHung
Only a few people were hurt by the original Dickwolves comic, and I think a
realistic apology for triggering bad feelings in sexual assault survivors
would have made this a non-event. Like, "A number of people have written to
express that they felt hurt or threatened by yesterday's strip. Please know
that we had no intention of that. We wanted to express how incredulous it is
that a game can use the threat of violence, death, enslavement, and implied
rape as a motivation for a quest then cast aside those people you have
ostensibly just been charged with helping. It was not our intention to hurt
people in the real world by discussing this incongruity in games and we
sincerely apologize to those of you who were hurt."

Boom, done, wouldn't have been an issue.

NOW, what happened after that was THIS strip: [http://www.penny-
arcade.com/comic/2010/08/13](http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/08/13) An
incredibly insincere apology which makes anyone reading question whether they
have their heads screwed on straight. On top of that, they make a t-shirt for
Team Dickwolves. Then Mike NEVER FUCKING LETS IT GO, for damn near three
years.

Only extremely recently has he even expressed that he might have been handling
these sorts of situations incorrectly and considers that he may be hurting
people. Well, great buddy, but you've already screwed a lot of things up. It's
gonna take a lot of work to undo the damage you've done and a bunch of people
will never trust you regardless.

~~~
mpyne
Even the second comic I can understand. The fact that they have to go out of
their way to explain that no, they don't actually think raping people is OK is
pretty distressing as it should have been plainly obvious from the first comic
IMHO.

What I don't understand is why you'd then go and make a shirt, and bring it up
again and again. What _good_ could possibly have come of that?

~~~
wonderzombie
I doubt very many people thought the first joke was an exhortation or
endorsement of rape. They were using it as an extreme, to skewer MMO morality.
And I see what they were trying to do, but not long after that point it
should've been obvious it didn't work.

So the second comic comes out and it's a straw man. "so you're saying we are
pro-rape? that's absurd. look at how absurd you are." If you're trying to make
people understand something, can you imagine how frustrating it must be to
hear that for the eleventy-billionth time?

It's fair to call people on making light of rape. I also think it's fair to
disagree, though I have a caveat: IMHO, given the quality of dialogue around
the issue, most of the disagreement is reflexive and rooted around the
perception of this as a niche issue, mostly germane to women (Patton Oswalt
had a good bit about this).

In trying to evoke sympathy, people ask if you think it'd be OK to say such
and such about your mother, sister, or daughter. An addendum which may (sadly)
work better for some people could be: ask yourself if it would change your
perception about, say, prison rape jokes if it happened to your father,
brother, or son. Then imagine if someone's response to your feelings was to
say "hey dummy I'm not pro-rape I just think rape jokes are funny." And so on.

------
thewordis
From the Penny Arcade blog on this incident, specifically Gabriel:

[http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification](http://www.penny-
arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification)

"So let me start by saying I like the Dickwolves strip. I think it’s a strong
comic and I still think the joke is funny. Would we make that strip today?
Knowing what we know now and seeing how it hurt people, no. We wouldn’t. But
at the time, it seemed pretty benign. With that said I absolutely regret
everything we did after that comic. I regret the follow up strip, I regret
making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being
such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. I don’t think any of
those things were good ideas. If we had just stopped with the strip and moved
on, the Dickwolf never would have become what it is today. Which is a joke at
the expense of rape victims or a symbol of the dismissal of people who have
suffered a sexual assault. the comic itself obviously points out the absurd
morality of the average MMO where you are actually forced to help some people
and ignore others in the same situation. Oddly enough, the first comic by
itself is exactly the opposite of what this whole thing has turned into."

~~~
Guvante
His response to why he said pulling the merchandise was the mistake:

> In hindsight all this did was open the wound back up and bring on a whole
> new wave of debate. Any action we took at the time just dug us deeper
> regardless of what it was. What we needed to do was stop. just stop.

My guess would be he internally translated the message to mean "That we don't
know about". Since he has previously said the whole incident was a mistake, he
was probably thinking that this last bit was new to people.

And I think all the points of this blog post are why they have changed their
stance on a lot of those things. They were reacting as if they were defending
their free speech, and they weren't incorrect in isolation, the problem was
they thus enabled other people to act out in more extreme ways. Finally when
people got annoyed at them for starting the whole thing, they assumed it was
for the initial strip (which was fine by most people's standards, which is why
it is still up), rookie mistake, but probably one they took to heart.

~~~
mpyne
> They were reacting as if they were defending their free speech, and they
> weren't incorrect in isolation, the problem was they thus enabled other
> people to act out in more extreme ways.

I think this was the real issue for Gabe, and I'm glad to see that he seems to
realize that himself.

In essence, the dickwolves went off-message quickly, and what he thought he
was defending against wasn't really the point of contention, and what he and
Tycho were trying to say with the comic itself wasn't really what all of the
comic's supporters had in mind.

I suspect this is what it might feel like to learn that a favorite shirt
suddenly became a polarizing insignia within a gang battle you hadn't even
known was active on the streets. The shirt means one thing to you but
something completely different outside your front door.

------
jbellis
Just from the last couple weeks, Penny Arcade has published jokes about
violence against children and torture:

[http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/08/19](http://penny-
arcade.com/comic/2013/08/19) [http://penny-
arcade.com/comic/2013/08/12](http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/08/12)

If you don't think that's funny, I hear you. But the people who are all "I'm
so open minded about offensive humor until he starts talking about dickwolves"
... I don't get it.

~~~
nsxwolf
I found that comic you posted to be funny. I am a father and I abhor violence
against children. If the comic really happened, that would be outrageous.

But it _isn 't real_, and it isn't trying to justify violence against
children, nor is it making fun of victims of violence.

I suppose some will label me a sociopath for my opinion. Perhaps I am one and
just do not realize it.

------
pyrocat
Holy shit this article is so bad. Let's see here we've got

* taking quotes from troll accounts and implying those views are the same as Mike Krahuliks

* calling out Penny Arcade for failing to address an incident of sexual assault among enforcers (spoilers: the offender was quickly kicked out and banned from PAX, which isn't even mentioned in the article)

* implying that everyone who supports Mike makes rape and death threats

This is a great hit piece disguised as socially responsible commentary. Here's
Mike's response for those interested in another side of the story
[http://penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification](http://penny-
arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification)

There are far more viewpoints than the 2 extremes that seem to be outlined in
this article, and I'm not defending either extreme. I think the original comic
was funny if a little off color. I think the initial reaction to the comic was
vitriolic and overblown. I think Mike's response to that vitriol was
unprofessional and, as he put it "a massive AOE that hurt a lot of innocent
people". That said, he's not a villain. Despite what people want to believe,
Mike has owned up to his mistakes in the past (see his handling of the
transphobic comments he made) and genuinely seems willing to learn from these
experiences and be a better person. This whole controversy seems to be
perpetuated by some very vocal minorities from opposite spectrums, each taking
what the other extreme said and freaking out. Mike certainly didn't help the
matter with his original comments, but people calling him a bigot and
boycotting PAX are also (in my opinion) overreacting based on articles like
this that get pageviews by fanning the fire.

~~~
wonderzombie
Hang on, learning from experiences? They talked about how they would've
_persisted_ with the offensive merchandise. How is greater insensitivity
becoming a better person? I was happy to read his comments about trans stuff,
but it seems to me that he's still a shoot first, ask questions later person.
In fact what prompted the trans apology originally was _more_ deliberately
incendiary commentary.

He's not a villain but I don't really see this as anything except a very slow
process involving a cycle of deliberately offensive commentary followed by
recrimination followed by apologies. It's just sad to see that in this case it
seems he wasn't all that sorry after all. So what's next? Another "not sorry"
response regarding trans folk?

I would restate the first point as follows: the trolls have the same view as
Mike/Gabe. And that particular view is that, what, social censure is
censorship? It's not an uncommon view among the angry (predominantly white)
male gamer crowd. @teamrape is just one particularly good example of a bunch
of people organizing behind this principle.

~~~
pyrocat
Did you see the Q&A? Did you read his follow up comments? He regretted
everything that happened after the intial comic. You're also confusing "they"
with "Mike".

Did you really see his reponse to the trans stuff as a "not sorry" response?
Here are his responses, from the horses mouth [http://www.penny-
arcade.com/2013/06/19/twiiter-sucks-sometim...](http://www.penny-
arcade.com/2013/06/19/twiiter-sucks-sometimes) [http://www.penny-
arcade.com/2013/06/21/well-that-escalated-q...](http://www.penny-
arcade.com/2013/06/21/well-that-escalated-quickly) [http://www.penny-
arcade.com/2013/06/21/going-one-step-furthe...](http://www.penny-
arcade.com/2013/06/21/going-one-step-further) [http://www.penny-
arcade.com/2013/06/21/also6](http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/21/also6)

Yeah he's made mistakes. You can take his apologies as genuine and believe he
wants to get better or you can think he's just playing lip service in order to
save face. Having met the guy and talked to him several times, as well as
listened to him on the podcasts/PA show/strip search, I believe it's the
former.

~~~
wonderzombie
See my reply to my own comment regarding the first point. (Not sure what HN
best practice is on this one.)

Regarding the trans stuff: I did really read it, yes. For what it's worth,
I've been reading Penny Arcade since 2000, and it's been in my RSS reader as
long as I've used one. Did you any of what he said on Twitter?

The man's sincere in his contrition, but his shoot from the hip style without
thinking about what other people think plus his penchant for lashing out is
insane.

I don't think he's just paying lip service. I think he's probably a nice guy
at heart. If you want my honest opinion, I think he's unaware of a lot of
(dare I say it) privilege that he has, and reacts with hostility when called
on it.

So again I am willing to take his trans apologies at face value. But it's part
of a pattern, and maybe after stepping in it a few times, the guy could take
at least a _little_ more care.

I don't think this makes him a villain, and I suspect he'd find this criticism
fair, as he has explicitly discussed this in the past. I give him credit for
being self-aware.

Maybe I can summarize it like this: it's strange to hear people (not
necessarily you) intimate that a) he has nothing to apologize for because he's
a flawed but nice guy, and b) he's apologized so stop with the criticism. We
wouldn't be here in the first place if the guy maybe thought a little bit more
about how he communicates. And neither of the above invalidates this as a
jumping off point for a discussion about the widespread
insensitivity/hostility in gamer culture when it comes to folks who aren't
cis, hetero, white males.

~~~
pyrocat
Yup, I totally agree. And I don't think people should stop criticizing at all,
I think it's a valuable thing to do and is part of bringing about the change
we want to see. I just wish there was less overblown under-researched
clickbaity criticism.

------
snowwrestler
An example of the great 21st century American power struggle: a fight to
define who has been victimized more, and can therefore assume the mantle of
moral authority.

edit: spelling

~~~
thwest
I don't read PA's critics as arguing from a position of having "been vicimized
[sic]." Their status as survivors is incidental to their argument. I read the
criticism as being about the lack of empathy of PA's authors for their
audience. You could replace the critics' status with gender-minority, and
you'll find a more recent incident where Gabe was unable to empathize with his
audience (denying the existence of transgender). Some comedians bill
themselves as jerks and carve out a niche for their audience, but Penny Arcade
purports to provide laughs for all gamers.

While I am pleased that race-gender-sex-preference tensions are being
discussed in public in the 21st century, but I find it highly questionable
that this is a greater power struggle than the classic 20th century struggles
of war and labor. Especially given that what is at stake here is mostly
audience size and hurt feelings, compared to livelihood and physical anguish.

~~~
jaibot
40% of transgendered people have attempted suicide. Assault is pretty common.
There is a lot of life at stake here.

~~~
thwest
I meant what is at stake in the victimization olympics framework that I was
responding to. Downplaying violence against minorities was not intended.

------
CrazedGeek
Here's Gabe's response to the whole situation: [http://penny-
arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification](http://penny-
arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification)

~~~
ordinary
I clicked that link expecting to regret it almost immediately. I was
pleasantly surprised. This is the most reasonable I've seen Gabe or anyone
associated with Penny Arcade be about the subject in the almost 3 years it's
been dragging on. And on... And on...

~~~
mpyne
Well I actually read PA myself and so I'm not surprised to see Gabe being
reasonable the day or week after his mouth gets him in trouble.

I /was/ surprised to see him get in trouble over this though as I thought he
had learned to stay far far away from it by now. Here's hoping he holds onto
this lesson for real this time.

------
mscottmcbee
A week or two ago, a friend of mine mentioned going to PAX East and I was all
for it. Now I'm not quite sure. I really think the quote by Rich Stevens in
the article matches my feelings.

> I could get over the original comic if they’d just moved on or apologized,
> but they had to make merchandise out of rape just to poke back at people and
> then encourage fans to wear it to a convention that supposedly has pro-woman
> policies.

While I hear PAX is quite the event and it sounds like a lot of fun, being in
the industry I already get a front row view of how toxic the game community
can be. Emphasis on "can", there's a lot of great people in it, but they get
drowned out. But lately it's been seeming like PA is more of the same toxicity
and I don't want to support that.

~~~
x0x0
fwiw, penny arcade also banned booth babes and generally seem reasonably
feminist

my guess is that Gabe was taken aback by the (imo over the top) attacks
against him and that comic by feminist bloggers and is simply going to blind
in this area from now on.

------
Sagat
This whole thing was blown way out of proportion. Sure, the comic's creator
reacted poorly to the complaints and should have just moved on to other
things, but I can't say I have sympathy for the persons who read too much into
the joke and thought they should try to turn their private outrage in a public
issue.

I don't believe being offended is a valid reason for pulling down something
(assuming the thing in question is legal). If we start vindicating loud,
sensitive or manipulative people who try to remove content that doesn't please
them, I think society is going to suffer as a result. More PC is never the
solution. I can totally empathize with rape victims, it must have been a
traumatic experience for them. But it should obvious to anyone that the comic
was not promoting or encouraging rape at all and that the appropriate response
if you didn't like it, was to ignore it. Humor is in the eye of the beholder.
To give you an example, I knew an American guy who thought 9/11 jokes were
incredibly offensive but had no qualms about mocking Haiti earthquake victims.
Whether or not a joke is acceptable depends entirely on the audience. There is
no moral code that stipulates in absolute terms what is funny and what isn't.

~~~
anigbrowl
_If we start vindicating loud, sensitive or manipulative people who try to
remove content that doesn 't please them, I think society is going to suffer
as a result._

Actually, I think Mike Krahulik qualifies as loud, sensitive, and manipulative
when he used his platform at his own conference to whine about people who
embarrassed and annoyed him _three years ago_. Why bring it up again?

------
sergiosgc
Humor has no forbidden themes. Forbidding themes approachable in humour is a
slippery slope we, as a society, should not wish to enter.

Uncomfortable themes that have been used in humour: death? Check. Religion?
There's a whole subculture of it. Torture? Check. Disabilities? Of course.
Dim-witts? Oh boy has it been used. War? The more war there is, the more it's
mocked.

Why should rape be any different?

------
sramsay
I've never been to PAX, have little interest in comics, and had never heard
this story before.

But if this is any way an accurate telling, then this whole thing is
completely obscene. Rape jokes? Mocking people who object? _Merchandising_
rape jokes? What the hell is wrong with these people?

It is disquieting -- to the say the least -- how often rampant sexism shows up
in the geek community. But this is so beyond the pale. Krahulik might be
entitled to his rights as an artist, but no amount of pleading against
censorship can ameliorate the fact that he has no ethical sense whatsoever.

Is there any appropriate response to this other than unqualified outrage?

~~~
parennoob
I've never read Penny Arcade or been to PAX either, but reading this story, it
seems to me as if a bunch of outraged people want the benefit from attending
this guy's conference, but also want him to stop making art that doesn't agree
exactly with their sensibilities.

To me, this seems like unnecessary policing of the worst sort. Yes, his art
seems to be in poor taste and he sounds like an asshole -- please stop
attending his convention and urge other people to do so.

I don't see any direct link between this and "rampant sexism in the geek
community", unless I guess you expand 'geek' to include 'anyone who has ever
drawn a comic'. It is a case of a particular _artist_ drawing something that
some people think is horrible, but dunno if it calls for "unqualified
outrage".

~~~
anigbrowl
The geek connection is explained in the article. Penny Arcade is massively
popular within the gaming community (because it's a comic strip about computer
gamers), and the decisions to showcase your indie game (or not) at one of
their conferences has a direct impact on sales.

 _I 've never read Penny Arcade_

Informing yourself before jumping to conclusions is more effective than
arguing from ignorance. As with your question rape threats, you could
perfectly easily use resources like Google and Wikipedia to get a handle on
the issue.

~~~
parennoob
FYI, the parent commenter had never read Penny Arcade either, hence we were
interacting from a position of presumably equal information regarding it.

> Penny Arcade is massively popular within the gaming community (because it's
> a comic strip about computer gamers), and the decisions to showcase your
> indie game (or not) at one of their conferences has a direct impact on
> sales.

Exactly. What his critics are essentially saying is, "We want him to stop
making certain kinds of comic strips, but we also want to use his platform to
sell our games." For an artist, that is ridiculous.

~~~
anigbrowl
No they're not. The article is _titled_ 'why I'm never going back to PAX'; the
author's position is that she's given up on it. She quotes and links to two
other developers who already don't go or won't go there again for the same
reason, and quotes a 4th person who says that not going is difficult because
since PAX is the biggest end-user game conference, staying away impacts sales.
Generalizing from that observation as you did is inaccurate and misleading.

Just because the other person is also uninformed on the subject doesn't mean
you should skip reading the source article.

------
sergiotapia
My response to these types of people:

[http://gayandy.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/fingers_and_thumb...](http://gayandy.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/fingers_and_thumb_in_circle_downward_motion.jpeg)

Just ignore them and let them wallow in seething hatred of things that are
obviously not meant to be taken offensively. Give me a break. I wish Penny
Arcade _hadn't_ removed that merchandise. I mean what the f*ck?

------
davexunit
What politically-correct babies we've become. I'm sick of the outrage that
happens when comedians make rape jokes or other "offensive" jokes. The Penny
Arcade guys don't support rape. They made a joke. What's the issue?

Here's the late, great Patrice O'Neal on the matter:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjIuPSuYSOY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjIuPSuYSOY)

~~~
venomsnake
The problem is that they followed up. I have no problem with anyone being
intentionally or unintentionally offensive.

I have offended more than a few people in my life and have been annoyed from
stuff other say way more than once and it evens.

When you see you hurt someone unintentionally you apologize. It is not hard.
And then you shut up. That's it. Don't try to wiggle your way out from the
situation or save face. Don't spin it or use "PR".

I used the word hurt intentionally. Because there is whole class of people
whose job it to be professionally offended. And they are better ignored or
teased.

------
jongraehl
Why do these people assume that raped people want them putting on such a noisy
rape-is-bad awareness show of "support"? How about advocating for changes that
make rape less likely and, if possible, the social consequences to victims
less severe? For example: more men than women in the U.S. are raped (though a
woman not in prison does have more to fear, rationally).

Getting offended by crude humor is fine as a personal aesthetic choice.
Drawing attention to it seems futile.

~~~
drhayes9
It's not the original comic that's at issue. It's Penny Arcade's _response_ to
the criticism they've received about it.

It's not a "noisy rape-is-bad awareness show", it's protesting against a
company that, quite literally, profited from a rape joke. And then said that
they regretted not profiting from a rape joke.

As far as advocating against rape, that's what this is. Poking fun at people
who've been raped contributes to rape culture. Rape culture contributes to the
conspiracy of silence around sexual assault (i.e. "They're gonna make fun of
me too").

It's not that all taboo topics are off-limits for humor. It's that PAX bills
itself as a safe space except for those times when the creator of the property
wore a shirt making fun of rape victims' fear.

~~~
mhurron
> It's not that all taboo topics are off-limits for humor.

Unless it's rape, then even mentioning it is 'poking fun at people who've been
raped,' right?

~~~
drhayes9
Nope. And, as a bonus, you're deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying.
Cool.

Good humor punches up. Making a shirt that makes rape victims uncomfortable is
punching down. Easy, right?

~~~
jlgreco
I think his point is that the original joke was punching at video game heroes
_(and the humans who play as them, the same people who are presumably the
audience of the comic...)_ , not at rape victims.

What followed was obviously a bit less benign... but the _original_ joke was
not "punching down".

(Also, the _quality_ of humor is pretty subjective, I don't think there is a
productive conversation to be had there.)

~~~
drhayes9
Honestly, I thought the original comic was spot-on and loved it. The
dickwolves thing didn't get past my rape joke barometer. Still doesn't.

Of course, I'm a mostly-white, cismale, upper-middle class programmer who's
never been sexually assaulted so I'm skewered by all kinds of privilege here.

But I'm talking about PA's reactions, about what came after. So's the post on
Wired. And it seemed clear to me that he was trying to bait me by throwing my
words back at me without context without contributing to the discussion.

~~~
jlgreco
I don't disagree.

It seems to me that many people involved in this situation are purposely being
imprecise to cause drama. Specifically there are two waves of people who got
offended; the people who were offended by the comic, and the people who were
offended by the reaction to the first wave. It _seems_ like people like
mhurron are purposely conflating the two waves to cause strive, though it is
possible it wasn't intentional.

------
vectorpush
It's a 'rape' joke only insomuch as the word rape was used in the text. The
comic doesn't encourage, make light of or invoke imagery of violence against
women, so I humbly disagree that this is a reasonable example of sexism. If
the word "sodomized" was used in place of the word "rape", the outrage would
likely be non-existent.

For the record, I do believe sexism is a serious problem in our society,
particularly in tech, but I disagree that the comic and the defense of it by
its authors is sexist.

~~~
drhayes9
Again, almost none of the controversy stems from the comic itself. Most of it
comes from PA's reaction to their critics' feedback.

~~~
vectorpush
Yeah, I keep hearing that, but just because some people _perceive_ sexism,
doesn't mean that they deserve special treatment lest one be accused of
sexism. Also, reports of threats from anonymous internet trolls is the common
denominator of _every_ internet controversy, I can't take that seriously
unless PA was encouraging users to send out hateful messages.

~~~
drhayes9
I'm not sure how to engage with you on this because I'm not sure what you're
saying.

It sounds like you're saying, "PA shouldn't be blamed for the Internet trolls
that are out there already all the time." Or maybe, "Threats against women are
garden-variety Internet trolling and not motivated particularly by their
gender." You seem to also be saying, "People only perceive sexism; it doesn't
objectively exist."

I'll start by responding to all three and please correct me if I've
misunderstood your points.

1\. I don't blame PA for hateful comments its community sent out to people
asking them to apologize for a rape joke. I blame them for profiting off of
it, for recognizing that this was happening and thinking that it might be a
good idea to make money from it or make light of it by encapsulating the
outrage as a shirt. While they weren't specifically saying, "Go out and
threaten women with rape and death," they _were_ saying, "We don't think
enough of their complaints to treat it seriously." I don't think it's out of
line to see the thought process there: "PA _themselves_ were making light of
it, so maybe this whole thing isn't that big a deal?"

2\. Sex-based threats against women (rape, specifically) are _of course_
different than similar threats against men. Just like the US judicial system
makes distinctions between hate crimes and non-hate crimes, or distinguishes
between pre-meditated murder and spur-of-the-moment murder, sex-based threats
against women are treated specially. They are derived from circumstances of
who they are and how they are perceived in culture, both things that an
individual has no hope of changing. Of course any threatened class of people
deserves special treatment for being threatened _for being in that class of
people_.

3\. Sexism well and truly exists. I'm not going to try proving that to anyone
else with access to Google.

~~~
vectorpush
_" Threats against women are garden-variety Internet trolling and not
motivated particularly by their gender."_

I am not saying this. Of course sexist trolling is motivated by the gender of
the victim, that's exactly how trolls operate, they deliberately attack pain
points that are specific to their target and it is damaging whether they
actually believe what they say or not. However, none of this is the fault of
the comic authors.

 _You seem to also be saying, "People only perceive sexism; it doesn't
objectively exist."_

I am not saying this. You clearly didn't read my entire post. Sexism is a real
problem as I clearly stated in my OP. Stated another way: if reasonable
individuals can agree that the comic is not sexist, then it follows that the
perception of the comic as sexist is merely a perception that the authors
don't have an ethical obligation to recognize.

 _I 'm not sure what you're saying._

I'm saying that PA authors shouldn't be held responsible for trolls harassing
individuals they disagree with because there is a flavor of troll for every
controversial topic and they will _always_ spout the most disgusting hateful
thing imaginable for the target audience.

 _I blame them for profiting off of it_

Why? Do you blame the author of this post or any of other dozens of blogs that
have profited off this controversy? If the comic wasn't sexist, I don't see
the problem with selling merch based on the comic. Will some perceive
"Dickwolf" merchandise as an attack on women? Yes, but that doesn't make it
true.

 _they were saying, "We don't think enough of their complaints to treat it
seriously."_

I don't think they are wrong for this. As I stated in my OP, the comic does
not invoke imagery of violence against women unless you believe that the
literary use of the word 'rape' is inherently sexist. If you _don 't_ believe
that use of the term rape is inherently sexist, it follows that you might not
take accusations of sexism seriously. You can't evaluate these two components
of the story in a vacuum. Your argument boils down to "well, there isn't
anything actually sexist about the comic, but dismissing accusations of the
comic as sexist is sexist".

 _Sexism well and truly exists_

You're fighting against a straw-man.

~~~
drhayes9
Nope, totally read your post. And then deleted my rather angry response
because you've got a couple of good points; sorry to straw man you there.

All of your examples start from the comic. The rest of the discussion starts
with PA's response to their critics.

I agree that the comic isn't particularly sexist.

I disagree that PA isn't responsible for their community here. Even Krahulik
himself thinks so[1]. When he says, on the one hand, "We have worked very hard
to make PAX a safe place," and then, on the other hand, says he regrets not
selling rape joke t-shirts that specifically were released to antagonize his
critics (the ones he was making the safe place for). What's up with that?

I think the t-shirt was purposefully created to make fun of people who thought
the original comic was a big deal. Do you disagree? It's not about whether the
original comic was sexist (I never said that, nor did Wired).

I also think there's a clear difference between PA selling the shirt and Wired
writing a reaction piece. Wired didn't post a big picture of a dickwolf and
put ads on it. They're not profiting from a rape joke directly... like you
would if you sold a picture of a dickwolf on a shirt.

We might be talking past each other?

[1]: [http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-
clarification](http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification)

~~~
vectorpush
_All of your examples start from the comic. The rest of the discussion starts
with PA 's response to their critics._

True, because I don't think it's logical to divorce the content of the comic
from PA's reaction to criticisms of the comic. The content of the comic
matters when evaluating the veracity of the criticism. If the criticisms are
evaluated as invalid it reframes questionable actions like poking fun at
critics and printing dickwolf t-shirts.

 _I agree that the comic isn 't particularly sexist._

It is not sexist in any way. If you disagree, please elaborate.

 _When he says, on the one hand, "We have worked very hard to make PAX a safe
place," and then, on the other hand, says he regrets not selling rape joke
t-shirts that specifically were released to antagonize his critics (the ones
he was making the safe place for). What's up with that?_

PAX is an event that takes place in the real world in an environment (tech
event) that has often seen women objectified and harassed; working to minimize
objectification and harassment has no relationship to printing dickwolf
t-shirts. Dickwolf t-shirts do not objectify women. Dickwolf t-shirts do not
harass or encourage harassment of women. Women are not made unsafe by the
comic or the selling of t-shirts based on the comic. Not all women agree that
dickwolf shirts merit feeling threatened. If one feels threatened by a
dickwolf t-shirt that's one's own prerogative. Yes, the t-shirts were designed
to make fun of the critics but nothing is wrong with that if you disagree with
the critic's assessment of the work.

 _I also think there 's a clear difference between PA selling the shirt and
Wired writing a reaction piece. Wired didn't post a big picture of a dickwolf
and put ads on it. They're not profiting from a rape joke directly_

Ok, I agree that selling shirts about the comic is not the same as linkbaiting
for page-views, but my point is still the same; PA was "profiting from a rape
joke" the moment the comic was posted, so if there is no problem profiting
from the original comic, I fail to see why it's wrong to profit from the sale
of t-shirts based on the comic. Either the comic is wrong and the merch is
also wrong by extension or the comic is not wrong and the shirt is just a
stupid shirt.

~~~
drhayes9
It's been a while and I don't know if you'll come back, but here goes...

 _It is not sexist in any way. If you disagree, please elaborate._

I know many women who don't find rape amusing. Most ugly rape jokes that I've
seen (popular rape jokes? anyway...) are made by men.

 _The content of the comic matters when evaluating the veracity of the
criticism._

This is our central disagreement, then. The original work could have been made
in ignorance and been excusable. But some of Penny Arcade's own fans said,
"Hey guys, can you not make light of the fact that some people _actually are_
raped to sleep every night?" And in the face of those revelations by real
people they decided to have a laugh. Their own fans exposed some vulnerability
by admitting these feelings and the PA guys stomped all over them. They're
just being bullies.

Additionally, the content itself matters less than its audience's reactions.
This isn't some lunatic fringe pulling meaning out of nowhere, this is a
demographic of people that PA has largely tried to defend through their
policies at PAX. Except here, where they made fun of them when they were down.

The fall-out from this stretched on for about a year. Krahulik, via Twitter,
demeaned the concept of triggers and, basically, denied that what these people
were feeling was real.

 _Dickwolf t-shirts do not harass or encourage harassment of women._

This statement makes no sense. When women respond to a rape joke by saying,
"Please don't say that," and you print a t-shirt _in response to their
criticism_ that depicts a (fantasy) rapist... how does that not encourage
harassment? How does that follow in your thinking?

 _if you disagree with the critic 's assessment of the work_

Which Krahulik himself does not: [http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-
clarification](http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification)

Here's Krahulik's own words from that page:

> I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret
> pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to
> people who were upset.

When you say _Women are not made unsafe by the comic of the selling of
t-shirts based on the comic_ it tells me that you don't know what it is to
feel unsafe or be a woman. I've read a lot of first-hand accounts of women
saying they felt unsafe in a crowd of men cheering for rape.

I'm gonna put a lid of this one on my side. Thanks for the level-headed
discussion, though, much appreciated -- especially because this shit makes me
jump up and down.

~~~
vectorpush
_I know many women who don 't find rape amusing._

So what? How is that sexist? I know many black Americans who don't find
slavery amusing, does that make the comic racist too? Of course not, because
the comic contains absolutely nothing in the way of allusions to race from any
conceivable interpretation, the same is true of sex.

 _Most ugly rape jokes that I 've seen (popular rape jokes? anyway...) are
made by men._

Most popular comedians are men, whether you chalk that up to a sexist society
or not, an individual's joke doesn't become sexist just because the joke is
mostly made by men, I think it's pretty obvious that all sorts of clearly non-
sexist jokes fall into the category of "mostly made by men". I think, at a
_minimum_ , the intellectually honest way to judge a joke as sexist is if it's
made at the expense of an individuals's sex (or at least makes _any_ mention
of or allusion to sex without consideration for women as a protected class).
Anyone can be raped, in fact, male prisoners being raped (as is the case in
the comic) is a very common trope. The comic is just not sexist at all,
period. Also, what's with the "ugly" qualifier? Are some "rape jokes" ugly and
others not?

 _some of Penny Arcade 's own fans said, "Hey guys, can you not make light of
the fact that some people actually are raped to sleep every night?" And in the
face of those revelations by real people they decided to have a laugh._

That's pretty a revisionist version of events. A shit-storm of vitriol (on
both sides) erupted over this comic, PA wasn't given a kind suggestion by the
community, they were flamed as sexist rape culture purveyors straight out of
the gate, they reacted by doubling down in defense of the comic, indeed
poorly, but with earnest belief in the intellectual honesty of their argument:
_nothing is wrong with the comic_.

 _Additionally, the content itself matters less than its audience 's
reactions._

That makes zero sense. Facts matter, especially when people are whipped up
into a frenzy over the supposed nature of the facts.

 _This isn 't some lunatic fringe pulling meaning out of nowhere_

The segment of the audience who didn't favor the comic are not a lunatic
fringe, they're just totally wrong about the comic by all objective measure.
They _were_ pulling meaning out of nowhere because we've already established
that the comic in no way alludes to violence against women, period. The
critics don't own the word rape.

 _Which Krahulik himself does not:[http://www.penny-
arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification](http://www.penny-
arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification) > I regret the follow up strip, I
regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret
being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset._

Yes, he regrets all those things (except the original comic), that doesn't
mean he agrees with the critics (he clearly doesn't).

 _When you say Women are not made unsafe by the selling of t-shirts based on
the comic it tells me that you don 't know what it is to feel unsafe or be a
woman._

That's a considerably presumptuous and condescending statement. You'd feel
pretty stupid right now if I told you that I actually _was_ a woman (i'm not),
but just because I hold certain beliefs (i.e. "don't be a dickwolf" printed on
a t-shirt is not threatening) you presume that I couldn't possibly know what
it's like to be a woman because of course we should reasonably expect that a
normal woman would feel threatened by a passive line of text ironed onto a
shirt. I mean, look at the first comment on the article, a female rape
survivor who ___gasp_ __doesn 't read any threatening connotation into
dickwolves.

Once again, women are not made unsafe by the t-shirt. Wearing a t-shirt
doesn't make one a rapist, it doesn't encourage rape, it doesn't support rape,
neither the shirt nor the comic depict an assault of any kind, and women in
particular have a dubious relationship to the comic in any capacity (since it
was a white male prisoner who alluded to being raped by a Dickwolf)

 _I 've read a lot of first-hand accounts of women saying they felt unsafe in
a crowd of men cheering for rape._

Yes, a crowd of men cheering for rape would be quite scary... except that
never actually happened and you completely undermine your credibility when you
repeat such falsehoods as truth. They cheered because they support the artist,
the comic, and the perceived push-back against capitulation to pressure that
pulling the merch represented. To say that those men cheered for rape is about
as dishonest as it gets and it's that type of rhetoric that sends otherwise
open-minded men into defense mode.

Anyway. Agree to disagree. Glad we kept it civil :).

~~~
drhayes9
Non-ugly rape joke from Louis CK:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU)

And, yeah, great discussion man. You've got me thinking. ( =

------
drhayes9
Totally agree. I'm not going to read Penny Arcade anymore, either. I don't
support bullies.

------
saraid216
Incidentally, there was a significant transphobic incident with Krahulik on
Twitter a month or two ago, as well. I didn't see much of it, since I'm not on
top of game news, but what I was pointed to wasn't exactly good.

~~~
danielweber
I saw those tweets, out of context, and they were bad. But the context is
important. A 17-year-old boy decide he gets to use the girls' room now, that's
a different context than a transwoman talking about almost getting beaten to
death.

------
ahi
The original joke didnt need an apology as it was clearly directed at the
screwed up morality of games, ie rape only matters when it is part of a quest.
Everything PA did after that was stupid and offensive.

------
tptacek
See also Patton Oswalt's reconsideration of rape jokes:

[http://www.pattonoswalt.com/index.cfm?page=spew&id=167](http://www.pattonoswalt.com/index.cfm?page=spew&id=167)

------
johnjlocke
It's really kind of sad that this sort of thing even needs to be explained to
the tech culture. I can only hope that the apologists for Gabe grow up at some
point; maybe when they have daughters of their own whose safety they have to
look after.

It's never been about the original strip. It's always been about PA's reaction
to their own community telling them that the strip was over the line. Rather
than apologize, they made it personal, and set out to mock victims of rape.

It's not about free speech, and it never was. It's about what happens when a
person who was picked on as a kid gets the power to bully back, even if he is
clearly in the wrong.

If you have a community, you are responsible for setting the tone. That's your
responsibility as a leader. Throwing gas on the fire by making merchandise,
and still bringing this shit up 3 years later is not the way to be a leader.

Is Gabe responsible for his followers being assholes? No, not directly. But
dredging up the dickwolves again isn't going to help matters at all. People
are sheep, even the ones who think they are the smartest ones in the room.

Obviously, all the people arguing on behalf of PA showing zero maturity have
never had a mother, sister, or daughter who have been raped. Otherwise they
get over the intellectual arguments, and act like a human being.

All the other arguments excusing Gabe's unprovoked outburst are intellectual
bullshit that no one cares about.

------
Aloisius
This entire incident could be taught as a textbook example of what not to do
in public relations. You have everything: a demonstrated lack of empathy,
attacking the victim, continued engagement over a long period of time, over-
the-top antagonizing behavior (t-shirts? really?).

Had he upset a more powerful and organized group and had the same response,
PAX would be finished.

------
canvia
If you're offended by words then you are taking life way too seriously.
Especially when they're words in an internet comic, intended to be a joke.

The person that objects to the freedom to say whatever you want is the one
being an asshole. The world isn't all sunshine and rainbows and no amount of
denial or cognitive dissonance will change that.

Sticks and stones...

------
danso
I get that PA doesn't want to be seen as kowtowing to a mandate that they not
push the boundaries of humor...but there were ways of handling this that are
between the spectrum of being submissive and being "fuck you I do what I
want"...and acknowledging that there is such a spectrum is not being a
surrender monkey to the censors.

Similarly, I find it frustrating to see these debates devolve into "Well what,
we can't ever mention rape except in serious legal cases, ever?" I don't have
much to add, but here's what I think is a canonical example of how to include
rape in humor, courtesy Louis CK:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu9q4sM1vmc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu9q4sM1vmc)

~~~
tzakrajs
I don't see how rape victims would find Louis CK's example of rape humor
acceptable. Rape victims probably dislike thinking about the subject at all.
Is it that casting the victim in his joke as Hitler is somehow better than a
nameless slave NPC in an MMO?

I think we are missing the elephant in the room in that a lot of people find
rape jokes funny -- to the point of being profitable enough to sell
merchandise. But there is a small minority that are incredibly offended when
the topic of rape is even broached. Where do we strike balance in that
spectrum you mentioned?

------
stephth
Seems like this post is being either flagged or modded into oblivion. (As of
writing, 1h old, 44 points, and already in page 2).

------
themstheones
It's sad that enough people find this kind of humour enjoyable enough that
they fill a conference.

~~~
potatolicious
To be fair to PAX attendees, at this point the only real relationship between
PAX and Penny-Arcade is the name. PAX is very much a pan-gaming expo that
_happens_ to be organized by PA.

