
We Will Fight Until The End - nathannecro
http://zenmagnets.com/we-will-fight-until-the-end/
======
jedberg
A few years ago someone (I think it was actually the Zen Magnet folks) sent a
bunch of Zen Magnet sets to the reddit office. We kept them on a shared desk
and you could often find a programmer playing with them while thinking about
their code.

They were also far superior to the bucky ball set we had.

Even though I have a couple of sets already, I'm going to order another to
support their cause.

~~~
jonnathanson
I've only ever owned Buckyballs (4 sets at that, not including sets I bought
for friends and family years ago). Had never stumbled across Zen Magnets until
tonight.

Having read this, despite any apparent redundancies with the 864 balls I
already own, I ordered a set from Zen. Happy to support them.

------
tehwebguy
Good!

The way that Bucky Balls was abused was insane. They voluntarily went above
and beyond to ensure that their vendors knew how dangerous they were for small
children. They required a signature on a _super_ non-standard document
agreeing to indicate that they are not a toy for small children.

(I had to sign one to order them wholesale for my last company.)

------
oofabz
It's legal to sell guns, muscle cars, whiskey, swords, hydrochloric acid, and
fireworks. But magnets? Someone might get hurt!

~~~
darklajid
Most if the world knows a special "Chocolate egg with toy inside" product and
kids tend to love it. But there is a country that thinks kids are going to
swallow them wholesale...

~~~
tripzilch
Well that's what I've been saying!

Countries that, self-admittedly, cannot be trusted to safely handle Kinder
surprise eggs, probably should stay away from magnets too.

------
ajiang
I have no idea whether or not this is a sound legal / business decision. And
yes this could just be "taking off the steering wheel" in a game of chicken.
But damn, you have to respect an entrepreneur for taking a stand.

------
ekanes
I've got 3 little ones, youngest is a toddler. Initial thought was, "doesn't
matter, could hurt a kid, ban it." The article is well-written and strong
without being shrill. Changed my mind. Hope this goes well for Zen Magnets.

~~~
deciplex
Glad to hear it. I hope you learned from the experience.

------
jw2013
As the ban of ZenMagnets's primary opponent was in 2012 [1], and the
government seemed to want to ban ZenMagnets [2], I find it amazing it is still
out here in the business two years later and with a record sale $700k last
year (a jump from $50k in year 2012).

So nothing happened during these two years?

\----

[1] Banning Buckyball Magnets Is Statistically Ridiculous:
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliyahu-federman/banning-
bucky...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliyahu-federman/banning-buckyball-
magnets_b_1711110.html)

[2] US Government Wants to Ban Zen Magnets: [http://gizmodo.com/5932638/us-
government-wants-to-ban-zen-ma...](http://gizmodo.com/5932638/us-government-
wants-to-ban-zen-magnets)

------
wudf
The way they phrase it, "magnet sphere," makes what they sell seem so
arbitrary. It really helps them make the case of pro-democracy, as if it could
be any object banned from sale simply because we cannot trust consumers with
them.

------
Tossrock
In case you want to buy them before their possible bankruptcy:
[http://zenmagnets.com/the-zen-gift-set/](http://zenmagnets.com/the-zen-gift-
set/)

------
abstrakraft
"We will combat the CPSC’s magnet prohibition until triumph, or until a
glorious death of insolvency on the legal battlefield."

I like this guy. Where do I donate? Or should I just buy magnets?

------
NhanH
As someone who didn't realize about the risk of those things. And cursory
google doesn't seem to have that much info, what exactly is the risk of
swallowing them?

~~~
lisper
Swallowing one is no problem. But if you swallow two of them separately then
they can attract each other while traveling through your intestines. The
magnetic force is strong enough to perforate your intestines, requiring
surgery. Without treatment they can lead to sepsis and death. I'm all for
keeping them legal (I have several sets of Buckyballs) but they can be
seriously dangerous. That combined with the fact that they look perfectly
innocent is the real problem.

~~~
victorhooi
As well as this being a hypothetical...err, what do you mean they look
perfectly innocent? I'm not even sure what this phrase means.

You don't just randomly put s*it in your mouth because it "looks innocent".

If I saw a colourless liquid on a table, and I didn't know where it was from,
I wouldn't just randomly drink it.

Likewise with just randomly picking up plastic bits and eating them.

However, if you're talking about young kids who are liable to put anything in
their mouth, then "looking innocent" doesn't even enter into the equation.

As a parent, you should be looking after your kids, and childproofing your
house - you wouldn't put scissors on a table, or a kitchen knife within reach,
or bleach or other household cleaning liquids, or a hammer, or nails.

And you wouldn't let them unattended near a swimming pool, or let them near
the stove in the kitchen, or let them walk in a park without supervision.

All of these are basic parental responsibilities - I don't see how these
magnets are any better or worse than letting your kid eat a staple, or a nail
etc.

I mean, as a kid, I shoved a lego up my nose (yeah, I was a smart cookie), and
had to be rushed to the doctors.

Another time, I nearly ate dog poo.

Did both of those things (lego and go poo) look "innocent"?

~~~
spc476
These things happen. An ex-girlfriend's 8 year old (at the time) swallowed two
small kitchen magnets (they were the small type embedded in what looks like a
push-pin top). At the time it was suggested by the doctor that he might have
had pica
([http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/behavior/pica.html](http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/behavior/pica.html))
and that's why he ate the darned things.

------
sgnelson
I don't know which is the greater danger to freedom, "Terrorism!" or "Think of
the Children." But in either case, it seems that we are somehow supposed to
give up certain aspects of our lives because there is a almost an
infinitesimal chance that we may be a victim of "something."

It's great marketing though.

~~~
beedogs
They're both great wedge issues to get draconian legislation rammed through a
reactionary Congress. The excuse-du-jour is either terrorism or child porn.

------
jzwinck
The article mentions two possible paths forward, but I can think of a third.
Make the spheres large enough that swallowing is impractical. 1.75 inches
seems to be a standard for this. Would giant magnetic spheres not be fun to
play with?

~~~
lisper
[http://unitedweball.org](http://unitedweball.org)

~~~
smsm42
I have some of those and they are definitely fun to play with.

------
aresant
What I love about this post as a marketer is how Zen Magnets positions
themselves as being the only 1 of 3 companies in this space to take a stand.

When a quick search shows many, many alternatives - a cursory list:

[http://www.magnicube.com/](http://www.magnicube.com/)
[http://neoballs.com/](http://neoballs.com/)
[http://www.klikyballs.com/](http://www.klikyballs.com/)
[http://www.supramagnets.com/](http://www.supramagnets.com/)

And that's how you build a brand, and command a premium price !

~~~
cthalupa
Magnicube is the one that just settled, Neoballs is a subsidiary of Zenmagnets

Klikyballs' website and product packaging seem to be very reminiscent of
Buckyballs, but I'n not sure if they're related or just trying to cash in on
the similarity.

So their marketing is a tad bit closer to truth than it might appear on the
surface ;)

------
FiatLuxDave
Most of the discussion in the comments here have been about whether it is
better to protect children or allow adults freedom. Yawn! The best comments
here are those from jzwinck, termain, and rfatnabayeff, which provide possible
technical fixes to the problem. I would have much more respect for Zen Magnets
if they took a good product with a problem, and made it better by hacking
around the problem, rather than just fighting "the good fight".

~~~
joshdance
Here are the three comments about ways to solve the issues:

jzwinck - "The article mentions two possible paths forward, but I can think of
a third. Make the spheres large enough that swallowing is impractical. 1.75
inches seems to be a standard for this. Would giant magnetic spheres not be
fun to play with?"

termain - "Why not coat them in an emetic?"

rfatnabayeff - "There's a much more safe alternative with almost same
possibilities - a kinda "balls-and-magnetick-sticks". In that case, spheres
are just metallic, not magnetic. Only joints, sticks, have magnetic ends
capped inside the plastic. These spheres are much safer and the visualizing
abilities of that toy is almost the same."

------
lobo_tuerto
They are doing it the samurai way. How appropriate.

------
BorisMelnik
kind of an open question: what can we do to help their / your cause other than
buying magnets and sharing on our social profiles?

------
smacktoward
The actual complaint
([http://zenmagnets.com/images/Complaint%20Counsel%27s%20Secon...](http://zenmagnets.com/images/Complaint%20Counsel%27s%20Second%20Amended%20Complaint.pdf))
indicates that this company includes with some of its products a printed
warning reading, in part,

 _> Strong magnets can cause fatal intestinal pinching. Place swallowing
magnets on your don't do list along with breathing water, drinking poison, and
running into traffic._

If the safety level of your product can be reasonably compared to drowning,
being poisoned, or getting hit by a truck, you probably shouldn't be surprised
when the product-safety people show an interest in it.

Moreover, of the three things the warning compares their product to, only one
-- poison -- is an example of an actual product you can buy (nobody's selling
home drowning kits), and that one only gets by with a warning in cases where
it has a substantial beneficial use. Bleach, for instance, is sold with a
warning label, but that's because bleach has substantial benefits as a cleaner
of clothes and surfaces. Those benefits provide an argument that they outweigh
the risk it poses if swallowed.

What are the practical, non-entertainment benefits of magnet balls? If there
aren't any -- if they're a toy, a novelty -- it seems completely fair to hold
them to a higher standard. A toy is the definition of a non-essential product.
So if your toy carries a risk of killing somebody, well, there's plenty of
other toys out there that don't.

~~~
davepage
What is the practical benefit of a back yard pool (drowning apparatus), beer
stein (poisoning apparatus), or a sports car (trauma apparatus)?

[I assume this must be a troll, since if this were taken to its logical
conclusion, it advocates a Soviet style command and control society. No
laughing, smiling, or running with scissors allowed.]

~~~
throwaway5752
Your slippery-slope approach is fatuous. It is a completely nihilistic
approach to any sort of legal system that involves regulations and penalties
for breaking them.

It is a completely fair point to ask where on the realm of regulated toys
buckyball-style magnets fall. Someone doesn't have to be a _troll_ just
because they disagree with you.

Also, what is with your last sentence? Are you suggesting that not allowing
running with scissors is indicative of creeping authoritarianism? You would
have been disappointed with every teacher I had, then.

edit: thanks for the downvotes. A useful reminder to me to never discuss
anything with libertarians.

~~~
beedogs
> Also, what is with your last sentence?

Do you have issues with hyperbole? You seem to have taken it literally.

------
rfatnabayeff
There's a much more safe alternative with almost same possibilities - a kinda
"balls-and-magnetick-sticks". In that case, spheres are just metallic, not
magnetic. Only joints, sticks, have magnetic ends capped inside the plastic.
These spheres are much safer and the visualizing abilities of that toy is
almost the same.

------
natch
Children don't read the instructions, is the problem. But they do run
companies sometimes... also a problem.

------
xupybd
Wait in the country where they have a right to own a fire arm, they are not
allowed magnets. :|

------
cheshire137
Woohoo! Love this attitude. I just purchased the Zen gift set to keep on my
desk at work.

------
termain
Why not coat them in an emetic?

~~~
tesq
Violent abdominal heaving + swallowed magnets = greater chance of injury

~~~
hash9
I thought the danger was if 2 or more were swallowed and they attach in the
intestine. If kids have an unpleasant experience after downing one maybe they
wouldn't try another? They might even puke them up before they cause more
serious damage, plus mom/dad are alerted that something is wrong. A vile
tasting coating could also help.

------
ajmurmann
Every time I go to a theater and I cannot drink alcohol in the auditorium
because children happen to be allowed in the movie or something like this
happens I start dreaming of child-free zones, where I can walk around with a
bottle of beer while playing with Bucky Balls and look at nipples.

At least the prohibition of magnetic balls at least actually protects children
from something that can do actual harm to them unlike seeing adults drink in
moderation or seeing exposed body parts.

~~~
chroma
I think you are dreaming of Las Vegas.

~~~
GeneralMayhem
Or San Francisco - only about 15% under 18, lowest in the country.

~~~
bellerocky
Unless you can afford a private school, I don't think San Francisco is a good
place for kids. I take my daughter to the Exploratorium, the Palace of Fine
Arts, and the San Francisco Zoo, and there's also a nice playground near the
skating ring close to the new Target, but other than that I've always avoided
the city. It's just not a kids kind a place.

~~~
madeofpalk
Sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy.

------
yownie
JUST TELL ME HOW THEY WORK!!!

~~~
DoggettCK
I would, but as a scientist, I don't feel you would accept the veracity of my
response.

~~~
yownie
only if your answer is "miracles"

------
beedogs
The solution is pretty simple: people who have kids that eat rare-earth
magnets should just have smarter kids.

~~~
BorisMelnik
this just shed some light on the same question I had for me:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet_toys](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet_toys)

------
pravda
Was I the only one happy about Buckyballs being shut down?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S7Tk...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S7Tka4NUmUo#t=10)

That guy was an uber-douche.

I think the difference between the magnets and skateboards, bicycles,
trampolines, etc. is that you can LOOK at those three and know that they are
dangerous. The magnets are sneakier.

It's about time Zen Magnets is getting shut down. We'll always be able to buy
direct from China.

~~~
voltagex_
>It's about time Zen Magnets is getting shut down. We'll always be able to buy
direct from China.

Are you saying you'll buy from China because it's cheaper or that Zen Magnets
somehow doesn't deserve to exist?

~~~
pravda
I am saying, if you need round magnets for some technical use, you can always
buy direct from China.

[http://www.dx.com/s/magnet+spheres](http://www.dx.com/s/magnet+spheres)

It is better if it is more difficult to buy them. Kinda like hi-powered
lasers. Would you want 500mW lasers being sold at the corner store?

~~~
voltagex_
>It is better if it is more difficult to buy them. Kinda like hi-powered
lasers. Would you want 500mW lasers being sold at the corner store?

I get you now. I'm still not sure where I stand on the idea of "protecting
people from themselves" (but in the case of lasers it seems to be "protecting
people from idiots").

I think it would be a shame to see magnets become more regulated. It's only a
few small steps from "Zen Magnets shut down" to "Customs seizing all tiny
magnets in the mail" (I think Australia may be doing that now, though someone
should correct me if I'm wrong)

Edit:
[http://www.productsafety.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/9...](http://www.productsafety.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/997715)
(sigh)

~~~
pravda
Australia gets it right!

There are plenty of uses for small high-powered magnets. So you can legally
buy them. You just can't sell them as playthings.

Australia only bans them if they:

"are marketed by the supplier as, or supplied for use as any of the following:
a toy, game or puzzle (including but not limited to an adult desk toy, an
educational toy or game, a toy, game or puzzle for mental stimulation or
stress relief)"

~~~
smsm42
That's a weird way of doing it right. So you can buy it if it says "very
serious magnet spheres, definitely not a toy, thinking and relieving stress
while touching them is absolutely prohibited!" then it's ok, but if it says
"adult desk toy for mental stimulation" then it's banned, even though these
are exactly the same things and in both cases the seller has zero control over
how exactly they are used?

Of course, makes sense.

