
Why the French love to say no - hhs
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20190804-why-the-french-love-to-say-no
======
jean-
I'm surprised that an article on the use of negation in French forgot to
mention anything about "si", an interjection used to negate a negative
question. [1]

Example from Wiktionary: [2]

    
    
      Tu ne m’aimes pas, n’est-ce pas ? — Si !
      You don’t like me, do you? — Yes, I do!
    

[1]:
[https://french.stackexchange.com/questions/848/differences-b...](https://french.stackexchange.com/questions/848/differences-
between-oui-and-si-in-the-affirmative)

[2]:
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/si#Interjection](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/si#Interjection)

~~~
Benjamin_Dobell
Wow, English could really benefit from this.

~~~
awongh
In english, as mentioned re. australia below (and also america), the negation
of a negative is: 'no, yea'

[https://pics.me.me/california-english-no-yeah-yes-yeah-no-
ye...](https://pics.me.me/california-english-no-yeah-yes-yeah-no-yeah-no-
for-11837240.png)

~~~
yesenadam
Hmm, not sure about that. Sydney here. I can't think offhand of a context
where 'No, yeah' would have much meaning, if any. I never hear it. Does sound
like bush talk, maybe, but not sure. e.g. "You don’t like me, do you?" "No,
yeah" (or "yeah, no") would just be a meaningless, confusing response. You'd
say "Yes! of course I do" or something.

There's that old joke where a lecturer is telling the audience about how two
affirmatives never make a negative in English, and a voice is heard "Yeah
yeah". I guess you could try "You don't like me, do you?" "No no, I do!". But
whatever's said, the meaning would be determined mostly by the tone of voice,
facial expression, body language etc

~~~
marcus_holmes
Perth here. "nah yeah" is common.

the "nah" indicates disagreement with the statement, and the "yeah" affirms
the positive. Often with a restatement of the statement attached.

e.g: "nah, yeah I like you mate"

------
Iv
I disagree with several claims from this article.

"Meyer suspects one of the factors leading to this divide can be found in the
numbers: according to her book, there are 500,000 words in the English
language, but only 70,000 in French. This means that Anglophones are more
likely to have the exact word to say what they want, whereas Francophones must
often string together a series of words to communicate their message."

If true (I suspect a methodology shenanigan there) I really doubt this is a
factor. Very few French or English speaker will have a mastery of 70,000
words, to say nothing of 500,000.

According to one source [1] adult English speakers are typically in the 30 000
- 50 000 range. [1] [https://wordcounter.io/blog/how-many-words-does-the-
average-...](https://wordcounter.io/blog/how-many-words-does-the-average-
person-know/)

Total vocabulary of the language is certainly not a limiting factor.

"Countries like the US and Australia are low-context cultures where people
generally say what they mean and mean what they say. However, France, like
Russia and Japan, tends to be a high-context culture, where “good
communication is sophisticated, nuanced and layered."

I (and many of my French expat friends) have the opposite experience with US:
shallow enthusiasm, shallow friendships, fake excitement. Feels like Americans
present a simple layer that is actually a mask, whereas French actually show
their inner feelings more easily (which ends up being a bit messy, like I
suspect everyone is).

I was told several time (and experienced) that Americans love to say yes, and
not follow through, which is a pretty rude thing in France. "Why don't we have
lunch one day?" "you should come to my house!" "Let's make something together"
Apparently these are non-committal statement in US. In France they are. That's
why being able to say no is far more important.

Etymologically, "French" comes from "Franks" the name of the germanic/celtic
tribe that lived there. It also gave the word "frankness". I never thought
much of it but after working with several foreign colleagues, I really think
there is a reason why this tribe and this trait got mixed together.

In France we value frankness and we don't find it commendable to hide your
feelings or your opinions. If you promise something you have to follow
through. You are going to receive a lot of "non" because of that, because
"oui" really means "oui".

~~~
simias
I'm not a linguist but I do enjoy linguistics and language learning as a hobby
so I suppose I've gained a certain perspective that I feel most monolinguals
lack.

Basically here's my rule of thumb: any linguistic claim coming from a
mainstream source which seems to imply the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis[1] or other
kind of objective criteria to compare languages is a huge red flag and
extremely likely to be entirely bullshit. Out of those claims the "language X
is more precise/able to express more nuance than Y" is probably the reddest
flag of them all.

I think generalities about languages ("French like to say no") fall in the
same category as horoscopes: if they're vague and general enough you'll
probably recognize yourself in them to some extent. People like to feel
special, they like to feel special for speaking a given language so they'll
gladly accept any claim that sets them apart.

>If true (I suspect a methodology shenanigan there) I really doubt this is a
factor. Very few French or English speaker will have a mastery of 70,000
words, to say nothing of 500,000.

Yeah, this claim alone shows that the author really stayed at surface level. I
suspect the main reason for these numbers is that English, traditionally less
prescriptive than French, considers basically any word once used in an English
text to be an English word while French curates more heavily. The average
English speaker _definitely_ doesn't draw from a reservoir of 500k words,
probably closer to a tenth of that. Maybe somebody could link this website to
the author: [http://testyourvocab.com/](http://testyourvocab.com/)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity)

~~~
jcranberry
> _Out of those claims the "language X is more precise/able to express more
> nuance than Y" is probably the reddest flag of them all._

This may be nonsense as an overall comparison between languages but this is
definitely the case for specific concepts. Here is a paper where the reactions
of 30 Dutch people and 30 Jahai tribesman to a set of odors were compared:

[https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rstb.201...](https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rstb.2017.0139)

First two paragraphs of the conclusion:

 _Olfactory abstraction varies across cultures: while Dutch participants
confirmed the often-touted claim that ‘olfactory abstraction is impossible’
[19] by providing mostly concrete language in response to odours, Jahai
speakers overwhelmingly described odours with dedicated, abstract language. In
addition, their responses were faster and shorter, providing converging
evidence that the Jahai are communicatively adept in talking about odours.

Even for the monomolecular odours used in this study, which do not have a
single object entity associated with them, Dutch participants predominantly
tried to identify a source (e.g. flowers), or situation (e.g. house that isn't
aired), corresponding to that aroma. Their grappling to identify concrete
sources was in sharp contrast to the fluent abstract Jahai responses. Previous
studies have shown that Standard Average Europeans struggle to identify odours
[5,13–16], as also illustrated by the Dutch here. The greater ease of
linguistic expression demonstrated by the Jahai is not unique, however. It
appears that hunter-gatherer communities in particular find odours easier to
talk about [23]._

It's not really an objectionable concept. It's essentially the same as how any
kind of discipline with a reasonable amount of information to learn comes up
with their own terms. It makes it easier to navigate relevant information.

~~~
simias
This paper shows that Jahai are capable of "olfactory abstraction" but I don't
see how that says anything about the respective languages. I mean the last
sentence:

>The greater ease of linguistic expression demonstrated by the Jahai is not
unique, however. It appears that hunter-gatherer communities in particular
find odours easier to talk about.

If that's true that probably means that they have a greater need to express
these concepts and as such have become better at it and developed a specific
jargon. Maybe if they tried with tulips or windmills they'd find that the
Dutch are much better able to describe them succinctly.

Besides the paper says that the Dutch subjects are urban dwellers while the
"All Jahai still pursue traditional foraging, although they reside in a
resettlement village much of the time, and so are exposed to modernity".
Attributing the results solely to linguistic differences would be rather bold
(and the paper doesn't in fact do that as far as I can tell>

So if you're saying "culture which have a lot of exposition to X and often
need to precisely talk about X develop linguistic tools to do it efficiently"
then yeah, that seems fairly uncontroversial. Just look at any HN technical
discussion about "bugs", "segfaults", "DDOS" or "transpilers". I still don't
think it makes a good case for comparing entire languages as a whole.

~~~
jcranberry
>I still don't think it makes a good case for comparing entire languages as a
whole.

I wasn't making such a case. I was pointing out that in limited contexts,
different languages may have more or less effective means for accurately
describing things within that context.

Attempting to place a valuation on languages and comparing them wholesale is
stupid, but that doesn't imply that a language can't be lacking in vocabulary
in some space compared to another. That also doesn't mean that there is
something fundamentally keeping it from developing vocabulary for such spaces.
Which I'm sure they do in niche spaces, such as the academy.

------
okcando
> Meyer suspects one of the factors leading to this divide can be found in the
> numbers: according to her book, there are 500,000 words in the English
> language, but only 70,000 in French. This means that Anglophones are more
> likely to have the exact word to say what they want, whereas Francophones
> must often string together a series of words to communicate their message.
> This not only forces the French to be more creative with language, it also
> allows them to be more ambiguous with what they want to say. As a result,
> ‘non’ in France does not always mean ‘no’.

This is definitely a case of bad linguistics.

Without even cracking the nut of how many words are in either language,

* French tries to have an official authority while English does not. The academy is reluctant to admit new words, especially if they are borrowed, even when a word is otherwise in common use.

* English, like other Germanic languages, likes to compound words. French also compounds but it's not as productive. Very successful English compounds drop spaces or hyphenate and get inducted into the dictionary. Lexical procreation.

N.B. A word being in a dictionary is a matter of judgment, as a common word
can be missing or a word that is almost never used can be present!

* Where a word is needed but absent, one will be invented or borrowed. Speakers are not constrained to be "creative" under the tyrrany of a limited lexicon from this time until the end of time.

* It's not clear that a limited lexicon would mean playing games with a concept as simple as "no". This seems strictly cultural.

* English may have, in some sense, 500k words but the vast majority of those are rare and not part of the principal vocabulary. And why would you think this is related to ways of expressing degrees between yes and no?

* Why should number of words be used to estimate the expressive power of a language?

~~~
thatfrenchguy
> This means that Anglophones are more likely to have the exact word to say
> what they want, whereas Francophones must often string together a series of
> words to communicate their message

Have you ever lived in the US ? The hardest part for a French immigrant in the
US is that when people invite you to do something it doesn’t mean anything and
it’s never happening.

~~~
dgellow
I lived in Switzerland, Thailand, and Germany, that’s something I’ve seen
everywhere. And I’ve done it myself, I’m from the French-speaking side of
Switzerland (Romandie).

------
dorkwood
Australians do a similar thing. They'll either start a sentence with "yeah,
nah" or "nah, yeah" depending on the context of the question. I can't remember
which one means yes.

~~~
Benjamin_Dobell
Out of those two I don't think it's always 100% clear when people mean yes or
no. It's usually spoken, not written, so I think it requires context.

"Yeah, nah" would typically be in agreeance of a negated question e.g. "You
don't like Game of Thrones either?"

 _Edit: Heck, even if someone responds simply "Nah" to that question it's not
clear what they mean without a further followup sentence or the tone in their
voice._

I don't know if it's just Australians or other English speakers, but we
_definitely_ have really confusing spoken semantics around affirmation of
negated (or even negative outcome) questions.

~~~
pugz
It's quantum agreement. You both agree and disagree until someone clarifies,
at which point it collapses into a classical argument.

------
necovek
Haha, I found this funny: I ain't French (I am Serbian), and I am quite like
that: my friends have frequently made fun of me for it.

But to put things in perspective, starting with "No" gives me a bit of a time
to think about the proposition, and then during the response, perhaps change
my stance and switch to "yes": I am basically buying time. It's just a "but"
away :-)

Interestingly, my 2.4 year old kid is starting to do the same: — "do you want
go outside?" — "no, LET'S GO!". That made me think if it was one of my parents
who did this as well, but I can't definitely pinpoint it. My dad usually just
takes a bit more time to answer instead (he's a uni professor, so maybe he
evolved from a "no"-first person :-), and my mom is definitely not a
"protester".

So, while it _might_ be cultural in France (or perhaps French as a language?),
you can get it anywhere else too.

------
dboreham
Hmm...other cultures just have different ways of in effect saying no. Example:
in US airline travel if you ask at check-in to change your seat they well
invariably say "oh the gate agent will be happy to help you with that". When
you get to the gate they'll say "we have no open seats". The check-in agent
knew that and if they were French would probably have said so.

~~~
mytailorisrich
That's just bad service, not cultural differences...

------
rdtsc
I couldn't stop thinking of the comedy potential of hypothetical conversation
between a French person, who keeps saying "non" profusely, and a Japanese
person who is appalled, and is trying their very hardest to not say "no".

> French ‘no’ is often an invitation to debate, engage and better understand
> one another,

To someone who can read and sometimes understand spoken French, that seemed
like a good approximation. Also liked that part where they explain that "non"
is just another way of saying "I don't know".

From the personal point of view, would say a French "non" is also easier to
say, it just rolls off the tongue in a way and seems less abrupt and
confrontational than a "no" in English, for example.

~~~
Lio
It's interesting how we interpret meaning that's not actually there.

I'm currently trying to lean a little French. To me the French "Non" sounds
much more abrupt and often slightly agressive even when I know it's not at all
being said like that.

My French is currently far too poor to pick up any subtlety but that doesn't
stop my mind playing tricks on me unfortunately.

~~~
rdtsc
> It's interesting how we interpret meaning that's not actually there.

Fascinating. It's totally subjective. And I imagine it depends on what other
languages you speak. Some languages to me just sound softer and more poetic
like say French or Portuguese, some seem harsher like German and Japanese.
Russian is probably in the middle, though poetry somehow works beautifully in
Russian.

------
jaoued
The English say "Yes, but..." or " I am afraid ..." but in fact they mean
no...

The French say "Non, mais..." ending up most of the time with yes...

So what's important? the start with No or the conclusion with a Yes.

~~~
raverbashing
Usually the conclusion is more important, unless it's also "slippery"

"No but we can go next week" sounds more promising than "No because I have to
defrag my hard drive"

------
rosege
I had my own experience of this - I narrowly missed a flight from Marseille
and went to the ticket counter to change my flight to the next day. The woman
at the counter checked my ticket and happily told me no she can't change it I
will have to buy another. I told her that it was a marine fare and could be
changed. She didn't look so happy then and said your travel agent needs to do
it. Which they did.

~~~
mytailorisrich
Ah but that was in Marseille... Let's say you were facing extra challenges
because of that ;)

------
ilaksh
It certainly is plausible that different cultures have different tendencies
but this seems like it must be exaggerated somewhat for entertainment purposes
because it almost paints French people as a bit of a caricature.

The specific example sounds like it could be a combination of a very small
amount of language boundary and a slightly unhelpful or not particularly
brilliant airline agent.

Anyway I'm interested to hear what French people think of this.

~~~
nraynaud
I feel like it’s crap all the way down. The context thing again, the quote
from the most expensive and disconnected private school in the country, the
suspiciously low number of words in the language. It’s just someone trying to
be clever by pushing poncifs.

~~~
julienfr112
Is poncif really an English word ?

~~~
plopilop
Definitely french, linguee translates it as "commonplace", or "cliché"

------
durnygbur
Worked once with both French speaking and German speaking people where some
fundamental components relied on communication between these native speakers,
and was conducted remotely. Germans in turn are very laconic, literal when
speaking English and like to feel smug because of it. At some point the German
director became furiously hysterical on hearing „no”. What a beautiful
clusterfuck it was.

------
timwaagh
> Countries like the US and Australia are low-context cultures where people
> generally say what they mean and mean what they say.

Ever heard an american woman talk? everything is just always amazing and
awesome. 'customer service' they call it. and its nice and charming, until you
try to figure out what they actually mean which can be a bit of a puzzle.

------
unnouinceput
Then apparently I'm French. Because I love to say "no", especially to those
around me that wanna take my free time to do something for them. It became and
automatic response even before the question is finished. "Do you...", "No".
"But I didn't even...", "No". The only exception to this rule are my wife and
kids. They get to finish their question before I respond with "No" ;)

~~~
5partan
How did you answer this question: Do you take her to be your wife? Do you
promise to be faithful to her in good times and in bad, in sickness and in
health, to love her and to honor her all the days of your life?

~~~
leopoldo
That's where it all started... After answering _that_ question with "yes" and
realizing what was coming his way he swore to always answer with "no" from
that point forward.

~~~
IfOnlyYouKnew
Yeah, because being married makes you a slave, especially now with women
having rights and all that?

Seriously, this stupid meme needs to die. Marry if you want, don't if you
don't. But stop perpetuating these stupid clichés.

------
jcelerier
non mais c'est de la merde leur article

------
boyadjian
I'm french, and I have a mother that always told me "non" when I was asking
something. It traumatized me, now I have difficulties to ask something,
because I always think the response will be negative. So, when my daughter ask
me something, I mostly respond "oui", to give her self confidence.

~~~
jmnicolas
Going from one extreme to the other is not the right way. Try to find balance.
Kids need to hear no from time to time or they become insufferable brats.

What happens when your daughter is an adult and hears "non" for the first time
?

She will melt away. And will probably needs a lifetime to grow up and learn
that she can't always get what she wants (which seems a common theme in
western society nowadays).

------
marmaduke
There's an ad running in France right now for 1664 (a horse piss beer they
drink here) which says 'pas mal' and immediately provides the footnote
translation, synonyme of quality.

------
unstatusthequo
Is this like the “yeah no yeah” phenomenon?

~~~
bibinou
context: [https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/what-part-of-
no-...](https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/what-part-of-no-totally-
dont-you-understand)

------
quickthrower2
Their codebases must be clean. They say "no" too all the features and random
ideas people come up with.

~~~
baud147258
Ah ah. I wish we could do that.

------
bradknowles
I think it’s because it sounds like “no”, but it’s actually spelled “non”.

/s

