
Why America Needs India’s Rockets - cscurmudgeon
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-11-01/why-america-needs-india-s-rockets
======
pm90
On the one hand, its rather interesting to see the US, champion of free and
open markets, enforce a policy so against that very principle. If I'm not
mistaken, not only is US policy meant to assist the private space industry in
the US, but to also avoid indirectly assisting the Indian missile/ballistic
missile program. Although in India's defense the agency that
develops/manages/deploys satellites (ISRO) is separate from the agency that
develops military missiles (DRDO).

I think its a big mistake to continue with this policy. It doesn't seem like
the Indian satellite/missile programs are dependent on revenue from commercial
launches (although it doesn't hurt, for sure), so they will continue
regardless. But by making use of them, US corporations can get the benefit of
R&D paid for by Indian taxpayers, for free. Besides which, I think it would
lead to better cooperation and understanding between the 2 countries in this
very important area.

~~~
avar
This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a
nuclear weapons delivery platform. By assisting India you're paying for their
ICBM development.

Maybe the line shouldn't be drawn at rockets, but unless you think we should
have free & open markets for nuclear weapons I daresay you think the line
should be drawn somewhere.

~~~
phkahler
>> This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to
be a nuclear weapons delivery platform.

There is also the issue of maintaining the capability domestically. If someone
else is too cheap it would destroy the local capability. Imagine the US losing
the ability to launch it's own satellites - like it lost the ability to launch
people.

That said, there needs to be a way to make domestic launches competitive, so
helping SpaceX or others while blocking foreign competition seem like a good
idea all around. The goal should be to maintain domestic capability while
hindering foreign nukes - not to maintain some company monopoly.

~~~
dharmach
On the other side, Lockheed Martin which already builds C-130J Super Hercules
in India, now wants to manufacture F-16 too in India.

~~~
azernik
It builds the empennages in India, for integration with the full assembly in
the US.

And in any case both of those are less sensitive technologies - a transport
plane that other countries sell equivalents to, and a previous-generation
fighter plane for which India is in any case the largest expected purchaser
(the production lines in the US are being wound down, and the move to India
would be part of a purchase by the IAF), and to etch the US has already
approved sales.

We wouldn't sell India a Minuteman, so we're sure as hell not going to find
their development of an equivalent.

------
aq3cn
As much I know ISRO has less failure rate and they get the job with little
budget in comparison to NASA or any other space agencies. This alone is the
reason, one might be tempted to use Indian technology.

> India's Mars mission, with a budget of $73 million, is far cheaper than
> comparable missions including NASA's $671 million Maven satellite that is
> expected to set off for Mars later in November. Source:
> [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
> way/2013/11/04/243082266/...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
> way/2013/11/04/243082266/why-indias-mars-mission-is-so-much-cheaper-than-
> nasas)

For failure rate comparison: [http://www.vox.com/2014/9/24/6838079/india-mars-
mangalyaan](http://www.vox.com/2014/9/24/6838079/india-mars-mangalyaan)

~~~
drzaiusapelord
You also have to consider that Indian salaries aren't remotely close to US
salaries and other local factors. Software engineers make 12x what they make
in India. The US can't just have a $73m mission considering the standard of
living for engineers and managers here. ISRO is notoriously cheap even by
Indian standards. Its probably not realistic to expect this type of pricing
the same way the US can't mass produce things as cheaply as China can.

~~~
pm90
This is a very important factor, for sure. Its very fortunate that the Indian
education system does produce a lot of engineers. Quality is a problem, for
sure, but I would argue it is much easier to train someone who has had some
exposure to Math/Science than to start from scratch. This is one of the areas
where India's large population and emphasis on education (specifically
engineering) seems to be paying off very well.

~~~
duckmuck
Unfortunately the majority of grads are unemployable. India definitely
produces high quality engineers but they are limited to a few good schools and
occasionally an exceptional student from somewhere else. You only need walk
down the street in India to see ads for private engineering colleges run in
shacks.

~~~
sumedh
> You only need walk down the street in India to see ads for private
> engineering colleges run in shacks.

What are Indians going to do when there few good colleges.

------
gnipgnip
Indian PSU research centers are well-known for being incompetent (including
DRDO, CSIR, HAL...) [1]; in this ISRO is something of an oasis (or so I've
heard). These orgs are generally neither nimble, nor particularly interested
in acquiring talent, unlike their American competitors (or even NASA). Hiring
is often one large nationwide JEE-like exam held once a year to recruit new
engineers. Not surprisingly few Engineers that end up working there are from
top colleges.

Given all this, it's not clear how long ISRO will be able to hold on to its
first mover advantage, with regards to cheap launches. While INR being
undervalued may be one advantage, it may not prove to be enough to compensate
for bad logistics and attrition. Admittedly though, the latter are not as big
problems for ISRO, as they are for manufacturing companies.

If there are folks from ISRO here on HN, I'd love to know about their
management/coding practices and the like. In any case, the whole "defense"
line is a non-sequitur

\- Everyone knows that the Indian bureaucracy leaks like a sewer.

\- DRDO is hardly an organization that needs fearing; apart from the above
anecdotal data, most of the components/tech used by the organization are
imported. A Homi Bhabha is not apparent in the current state apparatus.

\- The state has hardly had any real geopolitical goals (after Nehru-Indira
Gandhi).

[1] Haldane called CSIR, "Center for the suppression of independent research".

~~~
manishsharan
You make a lot of sweeping disdainful generalization and I don't have time to
correct all of them. However, I can speak about DRDO-- I began my s/w career
as a student intern in DRDO -- I worked in a lab that was developing Nag anti
tank missiles. This was a hard and complex undertaking and we had very few
resources. TCS etc have better computers than DRDO . And yet the people I
worked were dedicated professionals and believed in their mission . And the
Nag anti-tank missile is success.

I don't think I will change your opinion ; I just want to point out to anyone
who might take you seriously that you are full of shit.

~~~
option_greek
Weirdly, I had an opposite experience as an intern in DRDO. I found the
employees wasting enormous amount of time on tea/lunch breaks and waiting at
the swipe gate 15 min in advance in the evenings to bug out. The low level
cadre are the worst in this. Scientists (regardless of their level) seem to be
passionate about their work but the support personnel assigned to them hinder
a lot. A lot of manufacturing (and design) seem to be outsourced to third
parties and the highest cadre is busy minting money from these contracts. I
felt sad about state of things during my internship - considering that it was
known to be in great condition when APJ was around.

~~~
manishsharan
That is true -- the admin folks were awful. But the geeks , scientists and
engineers , were dedicated and professional. Of course I was there in
'89-90-91. That may be a different era but the Nag missile is still
performing. I wrote some doppler effect processing libraries in assembly; my
supervisor to knew how to squeeze the maximum performance out of assembly
code. It was a fun and educational experience.

------
madmax108
Multiple friends who moved to the USA for their higher education (MS/PhD) in
fields such as Aerospace Engg complain about the very tight regulations in the
field. For many people, even being top of the class means coming back home,
because companies like Boeing/ SpaceX etc have very tight US citizens only
rules imposed on them. This is almost completely opposite to the Comp Sci.
graduates who assimilate almost immediately into the workforce. In a way, this
has helped India develop it's own space program because many graduates from
top universities do come back home and join ISRO (albeit I'm sure many others
don't for various reasons).

Why is there so much country-based regulation in these fields? Is it because
the traditional patriotism associated with the field (US vs Russia in the 60's
was legendary)? or is it simply resistance to change?

~~~
seren
A rocket is an intercontinental ballistic missile with a different flight
plan. So every nuclear power want to stay ahead in the game.

~~~
exDM69
I think the US is just adding a self-imposed constraint that hinders their own
progress. Other nations have built ICBMs and have space launch capabilities
too. The US is not significanltly "ahead in the game" and their development is
slowed down by hiring US citizens only in the aerospace industry.

Not all rockets are practical as ICBMs. ICBMs tend to use storable
(hypergolic) propellants so they can be maintained and ready to launch at
short interval. Many space launch vehicles, such as those built by SpaceX, use
cryogenic propellants and need to go through a time consuming (and dangerous!)
propellant loading before they can be launched. (note: the Indian and the
Chinese space programs use primarily solid fuel and hypergolic propellants)

I'm sure SpaceX, ULA and others would be happy to recruit non-US citizens if
the regulations didn't disallow it.

~~~
greglindahl
Are there any remaining ICBMs that use liquid propellants? Liquid-fueled ICBMs
vulnerable to a first strike, not to mention all those messy accidents with
hypergolic fuels.

Also, China's new Long March 5/6/7 rocket series reduces Chinese use of
hypergolic fuels to a minimum. All 3 have now launched at least once.

------
akshayB
One of the things I always struggle to understand is whenever ISRO get
mentioned people jump on US vs India salaries. We live in a world where
globalization has changed everything. See what happened to Solar industry when
China started dumping cheap solar panels across the global market. Auto
manufacturing, software business and many other sectors it is a very common
practice. If you have a target of launching something in orbit why not save
the money and use technology used by ISRO save some money and use it for
another project.

~~~
om42
TLDR: They're two different agencies that have different cabailities and
responsibilities.

Other than logistics cost NASA's rockets have much higher payloads (think 100
tons vs 10 tons), number of rockets available, number of satellites launched
into space (but I think ISRO technically has a better success rate), deep
space missions and research(ISRO recently sent its first MARS rover), space
stations, manned missions, NASA is also involved in aeronautics, and
robots/rovers. Source: [https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-
NASA-an...](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-NASA-and-
ISRO-in-terms-of-advanced-technology-and-science)

~~~
shripadk
ISRO is moving towards it's first manned mission as well. It recently tested
it's first Reusable Launch System: RLV-TD (Launch video here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzxe6q60R70](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzxe6q60R70))

------
jwtadvice
Another reason is that, with respect to the rise of China, the United States
is committing to investing in a rising India to challenge China economically,
politically, and militarily.

Somehow the article fails to mention the burgeoning defense relationship
between India and the United States, and the US imperatives to build out
regional challengers and opposition to a China that is growing in power.

~~~
kerbalspacepro
The article also fails to mention the existing defense relationship between
Pakistan and the United States, and the United States' imperative to make sure
that India and Pakistan both fear the other enough to not do anything rash.

~~~
jwtadvice
Nice. The article somehow focuses entirely on a (primarily exaggerated)
economic aspect of the new defense relationship.

This is pretty common in the US press, and leads many of the people inside the
country both to evaluate criteria with highly theoretical economic dogmas and
to assess their country as both apolitical and unstrategic.

------
rdtsc
> Since 2005, U.S. satellite manufacturers have been prohibited from hiring
> India's space agency to launch their equipment. So interestingly why not
> India then?

> Indian Space Research Organization has consistently punched above its modest
> weight class, racking up a series of cheap and practical achievements.

Aren't we using Russian RD-180
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-180](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-180)
engines which also seemed to punch above their weight class. Allegedly it was
hard it believe it was possible to run engine at that efficiency level.

~~~
exDM69
The Indian space program has been using solid fuel rockets in most of their
space launchers.

I'm not sure how that compares to the (liquid fueled) RD-180 in terms of
efficiency, but it's a very different type of engine.

~~~
avmich
I think these days you can find solid fuel boosters, LH2-LOX upper stage and
storables - all on a single ISRO rocket. Can you also find a kerosene stage?

~~~
swatkat
Kerosene stage[1] will be ready in few years, probably by 2020.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCE-200](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCE-200)

------
droithomme
This article seems fairly absurd, and probably is propaganda, given India's
track record compared to the US regarding rocket design.

On the other hand, India's Mars Orbiter Mission has been the lowest cost
successful Mars mission to date, so they are not exactly slouches.

------
renger
Why is United Launch Alliance always ignored in these discussions?

~~~
jakub_h
It will continue to be ignored until it approaches the relevant pricing tier.

------
fdsaaf
Use IRSO and we all lose. India's government is subsidizing these rockets.
SpaceX, on the other hand, is developing technology that really makes space
travel cheaper. Only the latter will move us forward in the long term.

~~~
shripadk
How does Indian government financing ISRO have anything to do with the cost of
the rocket? ISRO is wholly owned by the Government. Would the cost of building
the rocket be substantially higher if it was a private company? Nope!

SpaceX is developing technology that makes "space travel cheaper" not
"deploying small satellites cheaper". Both fall into different categories
altogether.

~~~
greglindahl
ISRO doesn't appear to pay competitive salaries for engineers. The Russian
space program had a lot of challenges when engineering wages went up a lot.
India's success with outsourcing and other engineering is the cause. It will
be interesting to see what ISRO's costs look like when increased salaries
ripple through their workforce.

BTW there are several startups targeting small satellites. One is the Electron
rocket from Rocket Labs. There's also the European Vega rocket, and Japan's
Epsilon rocket. SpaceX has already had one launch purchased by a company that
groups together small satellites to launch together.[1]

All in all, small launches are a very active market.

1: [http://www.spaceflight.com/spaceflight-purchases-spacex-
falc...](http://www.spaceflight.com/spaceflight-purchases-spacex-
falcon-9-rocket-to-provide-more-frequent-cost-effective-rideshare-
availability-for-small-satellite-industry/)

~~~
shripadk
When you say "ISRO doesn't appear to pay competitive salaries for engineers"
who are you comparing with? SpaceX/NASA?

ISRO pays competitive salaries for engineers. At least as per Indian pay
scale. Most ISRO scientists/engineers lead a comfortable life. You can't
compare the pay scale of a SpaceX/NASA employee with that of ISRO employee
because the economies of both countries are vastly different. Also,
SpaceX/NASA wouldn't hire Indian scientists/engineers in bulk to make it
competitive anyways. So where is the question of competitive salaries?

"It will be interesting to see what ISRO's costs look like when increased
salaries ripple through their workforce."

It won't make any difference. ISRO is a completely profitable enterprise for
the Indian government. So even if the salaries are increased it won't make any
impact on profits.

"BTW there are several startups targeting small satellites. One is the
Electron rocket from Rocket Labs. There's also the European Vega rocket, and
Japan's Epsilon rocket. SpaceX has already had one launch purchased by a
company that groups together small satellites to launch together.[1]"

Yeah but these companies don't have the same track record as ISRO does. I
checked the companies you mentioned and the launches range from 1-15 in the
past decade with quite a few failed attempts. ISRO on the other hand has had
56 launches with only 8 failed launches. I'm only talking about launches from
"Satish Dhawan Space Centre" and not even considering ISRO and Arianespace
collaboration which launched heavy payloads.

"All in all, small launches are a very active market."

ISRO is not just focusing on small launches. It recently tested a Reusable
Launch System: RLV-TD. See here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzxe6q60R70](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzxe6q60R70)
Of course there is no brouhaha or chest thumping involved as the ISRO team is
pretty modest about whatever progress it makes. Hence you won't find this
featuring on your Western news channels. This reusable shuttle will be used
for sending a manned mission to Moon.

~~~
greglindahl
I was comparing to Indian salaries. For example, as you're probably aware, the
outsourcing industry has caused a rapid rise in computer engineering salaries
in India. A similar thing happened in Russia already.

I only referred to small launches because you mentioned them.

If you're interested in Indian rockets with larger payloads, you might be
interested in checking out the GLSV Mark III, which is expected to reach
production long before the RLV-TD:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geosynchronous_Satellite_Launc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geosynchronous_Satellite_Launch_Vehicle_Mark_III)

I read about both the GSLV Mark III and RLV-TD in Western news sources.

I'm a big fan of India's space program, but it's very tedious getting
downvoted on HN for talking about it.

~~~
shripadk
But you just can't compare private company salaries with government salaries.
The perks that are enjoyed by government employees far outweighs that enjoyed
by private employees. You might be tempted to think that private employees get
"x" times more than government employees and they should be better. But that
is not how it works in India. If you are a private employee there is a
possibility of getting fired. If you are fired, getting a job again is akin to
going through hell. If you have a home loan from a bank you are doomed.

Government employees in India are the blessed lot. They of course have lesser
salary but the perks they enjoy more than make up for it. They get free
housing for life, pension after retirement, free insurance, they can purchase
land at extremely subsidized rates (which for a private employee would be his
entire life savings). You just can't compare salaries. Especially in a country
like India.

EDIT: Not to mention: If you are a government employee your social life is
set. You can easily get married (not easy for a private employee. You have to
be in a top MNC and earning a big salary or have a graduate degree from a top-
tier university in India). Your entire family is covered by Government
insurance for lifetime (which for a private employee ends as soon as his
employment terminates). In some cases, your next kith and kin are guaranteed a
government job in case you pass away prematurely.

Also, a Government job is the most sought after in India. There is major
competition to get a government job (I have even heard of cases where people
bribed officials to get the job). Private employees on the other hand demand
greater salaries just to be on par with government employees (whose salary +
perks are far greater than private employees salary). Apart from that, a
Government employee cannot be prematurely terminated (even if s/he is lazy)
unless s/he has committed a grave crime.

~~~
greglindahl
I didn't say salaries were directly comparable. Check back with me in 10
years, we'll see which salaries rose faster than others.

~~~
shripadk
Well the tech salary a decade ago was slightly greater than government
employees. Today, it is again slightly greater than government employees.
According to your logic there should have been great disparity between
salaries over a decade. It is not so.

In that period of 10 years, the government employees had 3 payscale revisions
with each revision bringing them almost on par with the average salary of
private employees. I don't see that trend stopping anytime soon. 10 years from
now, government employee salary will again be almost on par with average
salary of private employees.

So whatever you try to say it won't change the fact. Government jobs are
stable (You can't be fired as easily. You will be transferred instead), you
get freebies that you would never get as a private employee and not to mention
post-retirement support from the government. You get subsidized land rates,
cheaper home loans through your own co-operative society (for example: google
"ISRO Layout" which was formed only for ISRO employees). All those employees
got the land at very cheap rates. Today it is prime land worth close to half a
million dollars (See: [http://www.99acres.com/residential-land-plot-for-sale-
in-isr...](http://www.99acres.com/residential-land-plot-for-sale-in-isro-
layout-bangalore-south-267-sq-yard-
spid-I27823819?pos=SEARCH&sid=UiB8IFFTIHwgUyB8IzMxIyAgfCAzIHwgMjE3ICM0I3wgIHwgNTQ5MCB8IDMgfCM0MCMgIHw=)).
When they bought the land, they just had to pay a few thousand dollars. Try
buying land in India as a private employee and you'll see your hard earned
savings vaporizing in thin air.

