
My first job burnout - szines
http://niki.zone/personal/my-first-job-burnout/
======
Daneel_
I've experienced job burnout, but not because of the job. I had changed roles,
which meant a change of team leader.

Previously, I'd worked quite closely with my team leader, and he'd mentored
me, as well as defending me when the inevitable little mistakes come up. He
also gave me the freedom to get my work done in the way that suited me best -
he had a very hands off approach, provided I got the work done and on time. My
new team leader was the complete opposite, and micro-managed everything, to
the point of three stand-up meetings a day to discuss progress on tasks, which
he might re-prioritise at any time. It was a complete nightmare, and my
productivity plummeted. It took me 9 months to go from loving working at the
company, and doing extra work outside of hours pro bono simply because I liked
helping my boss, to completely loathing work, and leaving the company.

A good manager can make the world of difference in job satisfaction, and
definitely stopped me from burning out despite actually doing _more_ work
under my previous manager.

------
beat
My first true burnout came working at a "lifer" job, enterprise engineering
for an organization everyone has heard of. It was good for a long time. Then a
new manager and a change in organizational direction came at about the same
time. What should have been a very fun new project instead became miserable.
But I was a "lifer", and wasn't going to leave. Eventually, I got fired, and
it felt like someone had cut my chains off.

The worst thing is that I wasted nine years of my career there, three in
misery. And it took me a couple more years to realize that I shouldn't work
for others at all, but instead should start my own company. And I'm still not
to the point where I can make a living on my own product without dayjobbing.
But someday, someday I'll be able to sync up my love of enterprise
configuration management problems with my wish for freedom and independence.

~~~
nextos
Can you expand on what you're doing now?

~~~
beat
I'm working on a search engine for complex system configuration. It tracks
changes in any sort of system configuration (configuration files, database
schemas, deployed apps, firewall rules, whatever) and lets you see what
changed when across entire groups of systems.

It's really targeted at larger applications built operated by multiple
subteams and specialists. Large systems suffer from interaction-driven
failures - Component A changes, and Component B breaks. For example, a db
schema change can break applications that rely on the schema. But if the
databases are maintained by a separate team of DBAs, coordinating and
communicating change and dependencies is difficult, and debugging them is even
worse. Being able to see changes that can affect your own domain from other
domains outside your scope can make solving system failures a lot simpler and
faster.

I took several months off last year to work on this, and built an alpha
version. It worked, but mostly taught me what needs to be done to build a beta
and head for production. Alas, I had to go back to dayjobbing for a while, so
it's slow going again. :( But it'll get there.

------
wobbleblob
I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but a burnout is something you better
not blog about or write about on facebook or speak about in any way that can
be traced back to your real name, if you ever want to find another job again.

Potential employers will google the names of applicants before an interview,
and if the first thing that comes up is your name and photo on a story about
your first job burnout, you're going to have a very difficult interview, if
they don't cancel it altogether.

It depends on where you live of course, but where I live (Western Europe) a
burnout on your resume can be a career death sentence. It's illegal to fire an
employee who is home sick, and people unable to work because of a burnout can
stay home sick for months or even years at the employer's expense.

If it happens, you try to hide it on your CV. 'Stayed home taking care of
children', 'Went back to college', 'Took a sabbatical', 'wanted time to
travel' even a serious but purely physical illness (that was cured), all make
good excuses. If there's a hole in your CV that can't be explained in such a
way, they will assume burnout, and will likely not want to take the risk.

~~~
dalke
No, no, a thousand times no.

Not talking about things like this, keeping it secret, or (as you just did)
encouraging a social prohibition on hiding this information is what leads to a
burnout culture.

It's the same social taboo that prevents people from talking about their
suicidal tendencies, even if talking about it can lead to help.

And in a weaker sense, it's similar to the taboo in many private companies in
the US to keep one's salary information private, even though that taboo mostly
ends up putting more power into the hands of the employer. (Discussed here
recently at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9580871](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9580871)
)

People get burned out because they are overworked. Employers either overwork
employees deliberately - in which case not talking about burnout means there's
no coordinated response to resist employer pressure - or don't realize that
someone is being overworked - in which case it's best to encourage people to
be able to identify what burnout feels like or looks like.

~~~
wobbleblob
People get burned out because something in their life is causing them too much
stress for too long a period. It might be the employer's fault, or it might be
the combination of a perfectly fine 9 to 5 job with a bad social situation at
home or a health problem.

I'm not advocating trying to ignore it, but putting it out on the internet in
a way that it's the first thing a potential employer will see when they google
your name will definitely not make things easier or better.

~~~
dalke
Your first paragraph now is aligned with my own statement, which is either
that it's deliberate or accidental overwork. My conclusion was that people
need to be able to recognize that there's a problem (either in themselves, co-
workers, or employees) and be able to talk about it.

Your point is that people should keep this sort of issue hush-hush. It is in
that where we disagree.

While it may be best for someone, depending on the circumstances, to not talk
about such issues in public, your view seems to be that _no one_ should ever
do so. Otherwise you would have said "you need to be careful if you blog or
write" rather than "you better not blog about or write".

This sort of caution happens often. I gave an example of public salary
information, but I could have talked about unionization. The first person to
propose unionization often has negative job consequences, despite the laws
against employer retaliation. The people who want to change the statue quo
often receive advice like "keep your head down", "don't rock the boat", and
"know which battles to fight." But the only way to change, and hopefully be in
a better situation, is to start doing it.

Your advice is to continue with the status quo, and you use language of social
mores to make that advice. I strongly disagree.

~~~
wobbleblob
> Your first paragraph now is aligned with my own statement, which is either
> that it's deliberate or accidental overwork.

No, your posts imply that burnout is entirely work related.

> Your point is that people should keep this sort of issue hush-hush.

You missed the "in any way that can be traced back to your real name" part.
Posting a story like this under your full name, with a picture of your face,
can have consequences that make things a lot worse. The same can be said of a
lot of things people post on the internet, including this discussion.

~~~
dalke
My apologies. Certainly if someone could afford to quit a job and focus only
on the other issues (eg, taking care of a seriously ill family member) then
it's still possible to get burned out.

But given that your advice was only meaningful to those who want to get future
employment, I think my assumption that - in the context of your comment -
there's a strong job component to being burned out is valid.

"Hush-hush" doesn't mean completely secret. It can also mean "not openly
practiced or engaged in or shown or avowed". If one has to be anonymous to
discuss it, or lie or demure if asked point blank 'did you write this piece?'
or 'are you burned out?', then it's a problem. Ditto for 'you try to hide it
on your CV'.

Now, I may be using 'hush-hush' incorrectly, as it's mid-20th century slang,
chiefly British. My original point remains, which is that your original
response used language to reenforce existing social mores ("something you
better not blog").

It doesn't even consider that the person who write the piece may be well aware
of everything you wrote, took it into account, and still believes it's better
to write under a real name.

After all, anonymous reports are often dismissed on grounds that they are
anonymous, which lets the person making the report lie, exaggerate, and
otherwise make things up without fear of consequences.

------
visakanv
> After spending a few weeks away from work catching up with movies, I started
> feeling better. Once I got my thoughts back, I decided to quit. By that time
> I didn’t like my job at all, I couldn’t imagine going back not even for a
> day. If I knew it was a burnout at that time, and if I got help in time, I
> might have been still at the bank working as a branch manager :)

This is one of those interesting "stay vs leave" situations. If OP had
recognized impending burnout early on, and addressed it, would she have been
happier staying on at the bank?

It's usually quite hard to say.

~~~
Killswitch
It is very interesting. I recently had burnout get so deep that I couldn't
hide it anymore and had to react, I asked for a week off because I was burnt
out. Got given that weak off, 3 days in was fired.

1.5 years 10+ hour days, 7 days a week with only 2 days off after my daughter
was born.

~~~
adwn
> _1.5 years 10+ hour days, 7 days a week with only 2 days off after my
> daughter was born._

Why did you do that? (not an accusation, genuinely curious)

~~~
Killswitch
I was given equity in the company, told it was my company too. I felt me
working extra would contribute to the success of the company. I was often
pushed by the CEO when I was feeling tired and that I couldn't work anymore.
I've ruined friendships with some of my closet friends because of the
company... In the end, the equity I got wasn't worth the trouble I went
through. I will never accept equity anymore. Pay me my salary, or find another
shmuck. You're not creating the next Google, Facebook or Dropbox. The equity
isn't worth it.

------
piqufoh
Great read and good take-away message "if your not enjoying your job, try
something else" \- it's a medicine that is sometimes very difficult to take.

Speaking of medicine - you were given a twice daily injection for six weeks,
and you don't know what was in the injection?!

> I still don’t know what was in it but surely it was some really good stuff
> :)

~~~
juliangregorian
Worth reflecting on what a luxury it is to be able to pick a job you enjoy.

------
shiggerino
>"I started 7.30AM in the office finishing up around 6-7PM."

Stopped reading there. Whoever is in charge of HR at that place needs to be
taken around the back and shot by the shareholders. Even ignoring the labour
issues, I seriously doubt they saw a significant advantage in productivity
over a conventional 8-hour day, instead they lost what was probably a very
valuable employee. Hope they're happy.

------
Apocryphon
What's the difference between burnout, and boreout?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boreout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boreout)

It sounds like the author was experiencing the latter before she experienced
the former.

------
d--b
Why is this called 'My first burnout', are you planning on having another one?

~~~
chisleu
Burnout is going to happen unless you are in an awesome job that you will
never leave. I think most people hope to change jobs every 2-3 years anyway.

~~~
smeyer
Just because you're changing jobs doesn't mean you're burning out. I've known
people who have had several jobs over a career (some they liked and some they
didn't) without ever burning out at any of them.

------
rilita
The article seems curiously devoid of explanation as to what caused the
burnout. As a result there is no reasoning in it really as to how to avoid
burnout. ( besides "take a break when you need it" )

It seems to imply that burnout is a failing of the employee not of the
employer. I disagree with this notion entirely, as I think management has a
duty to care for and protect their employees from burnout. That is why there
is always a chain of responsibility, so that this can occur at all places on
the chain.

A properly functioning corporation will help their employees avoid burnout and
not make demands of them that inevitably cause it.

------
donatj
God that sounds like the rut I am in.

~~~
ice303
Happened to me a couple months ago. Fainted on my desk, had to go to the
hospital by ambulance. Almost 8 weeks at home. Don't wait for it to happen.

~~~
lloeki
> Don't wait for it to happen.

Sounds so much like what's happening to me here, yet how to distinguish
between the "real thing" and confirmation bias?

~~~
ice303
For me, i had a bunch of signals that I was ignoring for a couple of months.
\- Could not sleep well at all. Woke up many times in the middle of the night,
my mind was always thinking about work. I lay in bed, heart pounding really
fast. \- Loss of appetite. My breakfast would be a cup of coffee and 1 or 2
cigarettes. Could not eat at all in the morning. \- Starting to feel pain on
my chest, near the heart, during the day. Hands shaking, confusing speech.

One day, I was at my desk, speaking on the phone with a work colleague. On my
side, there was another colleague also speaking to me. I started to see
everything blur. I tried to speak but I couldn't. Started to feel a huge pain
in the chest. I remember putting my hand against my heart and then passed out.
\- When I recovered my senses (a couple of seconds later), I couldn't feel my
legs, I was shaking, and couldn't speak. It was terrifying. I really though I
was having some sort of heart attack. In the end, was a really bad burnout,
stress, altogether. I'm still doing my job (sysadmin), but I don't know how
long will I be able to stand this.

So, take care!

------
provemewrong
> weak-up-call

> even I wasn’t even 30 at that time

I don't want to sound like a grammar nazi, but might I suggest proofreading
the next time.

~~~
petewailes
Pretty sure the author doesn't speak English as a first language. Sounds like
they might be originally of European extraction.

~~~
provemewrong
English is not my first language either, I'm European myself. Those look more
like inattentive errors rather than lack of language proficiency. I didn't
mean to upset anyone, just a tip for someone who aspires to be an author.

------
phhk
How the fuck did this article receive so many points? Burned out working at a
bank? Huh? Getting a job because of her boyfriend? What's the moral of the
story?

------
deedubaya
> My _first_ job burnout

This makes me sad. Live to work, not work to live.

~~~
rifung
I think most would agree that you work to live. I would bet 90+% of people
would quit their jobs if they didn't have to make money.

On the other hand, I don't think there's anything wrong with finding a job
that you don't hate, pays the bills, and gives you enough time to enjoy other
aspects of life.

Personally I found that thinking I should love my job actually made me more
frustrated because every time I found something I didn't like with my job, I
would think about how this isn't what I want to do and try to find another
job.

------
kisstheblade
Sorry for the kids today! post...

I find it weird that so many young people get burnt out, in relatively simple
jobs with no responsibilities (on the job or with kids/family).

A couple of people at my office have had to take a couple months of sick leave
because burnout. And they had simple responsibilities and no overtime etc.

I myself have worked normal "IT days" for over 15 years, sometimes it's hectic
and sometimes calmer. You only have to know how to relax in your spare time.
And yes I work at home also sometimes ("bring my work home") and sometimes
think about work problems semi-constantly. But going for a run etc helps to
clear your head. Or having a robust night out with a killer hangover!

I think these young people just don't know how to work hard and party hard :)
And they are crybabies, also.

~~~
Frondo
"And they are crybabies, also."

Funny thing I've discovered in life, understanding and compassion are free.
They don't cost a thing, but they're still some of the hardest things to get
out of a person.

Have you talked to the people who got burned out? What do they say about it?
Your post doesn't sound so much like a "kids these days!" post as, to be
frank, an "I'm an asshole" post.

~~~
kisstheblade
Well sorry for the Louis CK style commenting :) It hits a nerve because part
of it is true :)

Further down is a funny post about youngsters "understanding" that you don't
actually have to work ("So while you think it's OK to slave away, work for
free and abuse the State sponsored drug, they don't.") for life to be good.
Sure, if somebody wipes your behind and burps you regularly.

Well I work, my life is good, I'm not complaining (about work at least!).

But really, quite the problem people have these days. 8-16 work days in a
comfy office with no responsibility whatsoever and they get burnt out at 25 (2
years out of school). I think that's a pampered crybaby.

And I'm not now talking about people with some medical issues, those you can't
of course help.

~~~
Frondo
So... you're still calling people crybabies, but I'd still like to know: did
you ever talk to these people about their burnout? Did you try to understand
what was going on with them?

Do you have any curiosity at all about the people you're judging?

