
Why Portland's Public Toilets Succeeded Where Others Failed (2012) - curtis
https://www.citylab.com/design/2012/01/why-portlands-public-toilets-succeeded-where-others-failed/1020/
======
laser
$90k upfront plus $12k /year? Perhaps these public restrooms are better than
the alternative, but it seems to me that Germany has successfully solved this
issue for far less cost by partnering with local businesses [1]. For just the
cost of one of these toilet's maintenance you could have dozens of businesses
open up their restrooms to the public.

[1] [https://www.fastcompany.com/3065278/german-cities-are-
solvin...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3065278/german-cities-are-solving-the-
age-old-public-toilet-problem)

~~~
Simulacra
The few times that I went to a restroom at a German business, particularly
restaurants, there was usually an attendant that took care of the restroom and
you had to leave a tip. I could never see American businesses willingly
opening their restrooms to the homeless, let alone having a full-time
attendant to watch over them.

~~~
Kluny
I'm not sure when that was, but when I was in Germany in 2017 my experience
was that every gas station had a washroom that was available to the public at
a cost of about 1 euro. There was no attendant, but a coin-operated gate. The
washrooms were large, well lit, perfectly clean, had several stalls and often
showers as well. It's a sharp contrast to the free washroom experience in most
North American gas stations, which is a single stall that you need to request
a key for, usually horrifyingly dirty.

I resented paying the euro a bit, but the format made a lot of sense to me.

~~~
LyndsySimon
It seems to me that in the past decade or so, gas station restrooms in the US
have gotten _much_ better. Yes, you can still find nasty hole-in-the-wall
toilets if you look in small independent gas stations that have been there
forever, but nearly all of the chain stations are at least cleaned regularly
and many are almost luxurious in comparison to the past.

~~~
magduf
Yep. I remember how horrible gas station restrooms used to be back in the
1980s. They aren't like that any more, now that we have big chains like Wawa.

------
crispyambulance
There are other solutions besides crazy expensive vandal-proof high-tech
toilets. Just look at what they do in Europe.

* Large Public restrooms in busy city centers and transit hubs where you have attendants _constantly_ cleaning the place and charge people to use the facilities.

* Outdoor public urinals that are little more than a drain and a shield. This is an 80% solution that solves the problem of stinking alleys. Much of the time men just need a place to leak during a night of drinking. Women are way better about finding and getting permission to use private restrooms at shops/restaurants.

~~~
m-s
Did you read the article? The Portland Loo is neither crazy expensive nor
high-tech. It's a more inclusive and accessible version of the "public urinal
that's little more than a drain and a shield."

------
narrator
So how do you solve the heroin junky passing out/projectile vomiting/falling
asleep/dying/leaving needles around/defecating everywhere but the toilet with
the door locked problem?

On the streets of San Francisco I have seen several passed out heroin junkies
lying flat on their back right there on the sidewalk, needles nearby, perhaps
passed out or worse with some sort of projectile body effluent leaking out of
them or trailing behind them. This is probably an average day at Starbucks for
a non-discriminatory bathroom in a high addict area.

~~~
jdietrich
_> So how do you solve the heroin junky passing out/projectile
vomiting/falling asleep/dying/leaving needles around/defecating everywhere but
the toilet with the door locked problem?_

Universal healthcare, harm reduction and rehab services, comprehensive
welfare, affordable housing and a sufficient number of properly trained and
resourced social workers.

~~~
thucydidesofusa
No country has ever solved their junky problem even with those things.

To some degree, we have to get used to junkies existing in jurisdictions that
aren't inclined to lock them up. However, we can't spend our way out of the
problem. San Francisco spends ~$40k/yr/homeless [0] , if that's not enough to
solve the problem, then it's just too great. We cannot throw money away on
problems created by cities that abet $4k/mo rents for one-bedrooms.

~~~
xzel
Throwing money at the problem isn't the same thing as investing in effective
policies. How many of the above policies mentioned are actually, keyword
actually, implemented in SF?

In my opinion, that is a huge problem with the US in general, such as prisons
"rehabilitation": high cost per prisoner and very low amounts of actual
rehabilitation.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Substance addiction is a problem in the US in general in that we'd love to
have less of it.

Junkies shooting up in public, homeless people shitting on the sidewalk, etc,
etc is a problem confined to a handful of cities on the west coast.

~~~
toofy
> Junkies shooting up in public, homeless people shitting on the sidewalk,
> etc, etc is a problem confined to a handful of cities on the west coast.

This just isn't true. At all. This is a problem in cities all over the
country. Some cities hide it away, but homelessness and the other problems
that come with drug addiction exist all across this country.

I live in Portland so I'm well aware of the effects from a large homeless
population, but I try to travel as often as I can and I make it a point to get
out of tourist areas as much as possible, usually to concerts or something. I
can tell you first hand, within the last 2 years Philadelphia seems to have
the same issues, DC definitely has the same problems, Boston, NY, Chicago,
Austin, and Denver all have visible homeless.

What I find strange is how every city tends to believe their city is unique
with homeless, like they don't realize this is a problem across the entire
country. Go to any of those city's subreddits and search "homeless" and you'll
see how they've all deluded themselves into believing their city is somehow
unique and magically the only place in the country with a homeless problem.
It's bonkers. This is a massive problem across the entire country. I suspect
small towns across the rust belt probably have their own problems, especially
considering how their meth and opiate addictions on a per capita level are
significantly higher than even major cities.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
I've lived and worked in Boston and DC. You see the occasional person
panhandling in certain places. There's some homeless on the public transit
systems. Never once have I had to step over shit. Never once have I seen a
homeless person bother anyone else. Never once have I had to step over feces.
I didn't say these cities were special. I just said the west coast has it far
worse. I have been to SF. The scale and nature of the homelessness is
categorically different.

~~~
foldr
I literally saw a homeless woman take a shit on the sidewalk in DC at 14&P
(around 2008).

------
Simulacra
I think this is an absolutely amazing idea. I was astonished in Europe how
many public toilets there were, and yet when I came back to the states there
were none. I think these would be amazing right here in Washington DC because
we have a large homeless population, that have nowhere to go. This would also
cut down on the whole Starbucks bathroom fiasco situation, and might ease
tension between businesses and the homeless.

~~~
irrational
What was the Starbucks bathroom fiasco?

~~~
dmckeon
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-
canada-44088033](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44088033)

------
jdietrich
See also the Camden Bench, a bench that was painstakingly designed to have
literally no other function than being a bench.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_bench](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_bench)

~~~
mysterypie
There's a lesson in Public Relations here.

The designers were criticized for their anti-homeless, hostile architecture.
If I were the designer, I was thinking to myself as to how I'd respond. My
initial thoughts on what I could say:

1\. "I was given a set of requirements and this is what meets the
requirements."

2\. "No comment. Please address your complaints to the city council who
commissioned the benches."

3\. "You don't want to sit on a urine-soaked bench, do you?"

4\. "I'm sorry but I can't solve the homelessness problem."

They all sound defensive. What the designers actually said is excellent. It
could be a lesson in Public Relations:

The designers said that: "Homelessness should never be tolerated in any
society and if we start designing in to accommodate homeless then we have
totally failed as a society. Close proximity to homelessness unfortunately
makes us uncomfortable so perhaps it is good that we feel that and recognise
homelessness as a problem rather than design to accommodate it."

~~~
icebraining
That's curious, I find that statement so slimy I'm afraid to slip on it.

It tries to misdirect the conversation by painting the criticism as "not
design to accommodate the homeless", when it actually was "don't design to
purposefully exclude the homeless", which their design does at the expense of
being _worse_ for non-homeless people too (everyone may need to lie down
sometimes).

It also indirectly portraits anything done to ameliorate a social ill
negatively, which is a shitty thing to do.

Fuck me, that statement makes me angry. At least "just doing my job" is
honest, now I'm hoping they go bankrupt.

~~~
lobotryas
I think your thought process is taking you for a ride. The designer’s answer
(as self-serving as it may be) says that we should work to fix the root causes
of homelessness and not just empower it.

~~~
icebraining
Which is the whole misdirection I'm talking. Nobody criticized them for not
"empowering homelessness".

------
Fezzik
I have been out of Portland for 7 months, but are all of these still running?
I recall one being installed on the SW riverfront that was almost immediately
shuttered, I thought, due to successful vandalism/an inability to keep it
functional. It just sat there unusable for ages - I ran by it nearly every day
and evening for 5+ years (2013-2018) at was roped off the entire time.

~~~
sircastor
That's odd. I'm certain I've used the one you're referring to in the last few
years.

------
AltmousGadfly
It's funny that one of the problems listed is the homeless washing themselves
and their clothes in public bathroom sinks. It seems to me that public
washrooms and laundry facilities would be a good thing. I seldom have someone
sit next to me on the bus and think: "I wish they hadn't washed today."

~~~
joveian
Portland does have some day centers with laundry and showers, however the
usage is way above capacity.

------
kbouck
In the Netherlands, many of the toilets are pay (€0.50) and regularly cleaned
by a full-time attendant. They are generally quite clean, even at train
stations.

There are also male urinals which literally rise up out of the ground during
weekends and festivals.

[https://youtu.be/qXjPxBPgGV0](https://youtu.be/qXjPxBPgGV0)

I think female versions of these exist too, but haven't seen.

------
sambeau

      • No running water inside: "Some people, if they’re homeless,
      use a sink to wash their laundry," says DiBenedetto. 
      So there’s no sink
    

I find that a very strange feature. What is wrong with homeless people washing
clothes in a public sink?

~~~
kaybe
The issue are probably blocking the toilet and making a mess. I wonder though,
should there then not be public sinks for this kind of thing somewhere else?

------
GrryDucape
NYC needs these--plus, it would be a great test. Public restrooms or even
stores/restaurants that will allow you to use their restrooms are rare indeed.
Would be a great test of the design too. If your toilet can make it there, it
can make it anywhere!

------
johnmarcus
Can someone please sell these to San Francisco? PLEASE?!?!?

~~~
Animats
That may happen. San Francisco made a 20 year deal with JCDecaux for the
existing public toilets. The 20 years are up and the Board of Supervisors is
not going to renew.[1]

It's sad. A similar model works fine in Paris. It's way too complicated and
expensive, though. I've looked over the mechanism when one was being repaired.
It's all Telemechanique industrial control and automation gear. It needs to be
more like a washing machine.

[1] [https://missionlocal.org/2019/02/jcdecaux-toilet-contract-
ma...](https://missionlocal.org/2019/02/jcdecaux-toilet-contract-may-be-
flushed-as-city-spurns-extension/)

~~~
johnmarcus
could you imagine if San Francisco put 10MM/yr into managing the
homeless/drug-laden poop-fiasco? And if they even earned more by expanding the
number of toilets? It might actually become a nice city again. I somehow
suspect the city fat cats will find a way to make it terrible.

------
siruncledrew
No pictures of the inside?

~~~
jakobegger
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Loo#/media/File%3AP...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Loo#/media/File%3APortland_Loo_with_Sharps_drop_box_.jpg)

~~~
kwhitefoot
Yuck! And no toilet paper?

~~~
mikey_p
There usually is toilet paper, but it's on a bar that prevents the rolls from
spinning freely, making it hard to use larger amounts.

------
kwhitefoot
> The toilet has the dubious honor of being the city of Portland’s first
> patent.

Why 'dubious'?

This attitude is part the problem that public conveniences suffer under.

Surely it is glorious that Portland's first patent should be something so
patently useful to the people.

~~~
sverhagen
> Why 'dubious'?

Because patents are often criticized, both specific ones as the whole concept
of patents?

------
senectus1
no water inside... so no one is washing their hands?

When your child has a poo explosion you cant do a damned thing to clean up
properly.

I wonder what the gastro bug pickup rate is like in portland...

~~~
frosted-flakes
The very next sentence says there's a cold water spigot outside, which is a
totally fine solution.

~~~
senectus1
Yeah, not really.

I dunno how many poo-apocalypses you've had to deal with... but they get
messy.

------
simonsays2
Haha. Illegal activity is now carried out right in the street. Portland is not
a success, it is a cautionary tail.

------
QuamStiver
I think it's a matter of discipline. Well it's a nice topic you have. I think
public toilets is not for bathing its for emergency reason. The outdoor
toilets pittsburgh is successful too and it's very clean.

