
Google Parent Alphabet and Aramco in Talks to Build Tech Hub in Saudi Arabia - bko
https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-parent-alphabet-and-aramco-in-talks-to-build-tech-hub-in-saudi-arabia-1517495498
======
TuringNYC
My last [NYC-built] startup operated in the Middle East (not Saudi Arabia) for
multiple years as they had regulatory fast-track for medical devices/startups.

While it was a tough slog living in the middle east, I did it out of greed (my
startup was doing ML-driven-health diagnostics...and...where else can you get
years of medical records with full government buy-in).

However..having been there I can see a lot of reasons for this possible
Alphabet-SA-Aramco deal:

\- there is NO cloud endpoint in the region. no
AWS/GoogleCloud/Azure/SoftLayer, nothing. So if you have data locality issues,
like we did, you build your own storage/GPU cluster as we did. There is a huge
opportunity for AWS/GoogleCloud/Azure/SoftLayer, locality laws make doing
typical stuff impossible in the middle east -- just imagine how your life
would be if you couldn't use cloud services?!

\- electricity is near free due to energy abundance, we paid no electricity
costs on our giant GPU grid in the region

\- there is a _lot_ of tech and ml talent in the region, most of it unable to
take jobs in the US due to immigration laws and unable to take jobs in China
due to cultural differences. there are also many customs like keeping your
parents living in your home, which is now (post-2016) pretty must impossible
with current western immigration laws. we hired locally (mostly Egypt) and got
great talent for a fraction of US costs.

\- for the likes of DeepMind/DeepHealth trying to get UK NHS data, they can do
it far more easily in Saudi Arabia for training models, etc.

I'm back home in the US after 3yrs overseas. DM me if you are curious.

~~~
charlesdm
Maybe the most important question: did you end up making (good) money, i.e.
was it worth it going there looking back?

~~~
TuringNYC
Our acquisition by a Fortune 100 got knocked over during due diligence (sad,
but i'm told it is normal.) Made great money but a strategic acquisition was
what we really wanted.

I cant say I didn't try. We did a product with both market opportunity and one
where the marginal cost would have allowed free distribution in needy
countries. Inexpensive diagnostics help find conditions earlier so they can be
treated more effectively and better human health, so very proud of what we
achieved product-wise (whatever the business outcome.) Having a good country
to work in with a sensible medical system and well-aligned incentives to
improve the system allowed this. We tried to sell the idea/services in the US
but the medical industry here is just out-of-control-complex-nonsensical.

That said, whatever one might think of the governments, we had a great time
with the local population. We were a bit bubbled in a western "compound" and a
US embassy school for the kids, but life was very easy there.

If you want apartment life, you can live/entertain pretty inexpensively on an
artificial island with all things you might want:
[http://thepearlqatar.com/EN/TheIsland/Pages/The-Pearl-
Qatar....](http://thepearlqatar.com/EN/TheIsland/Pages/The-Pearl-Qatar.aspx)

~~~
charlesdm
Awesome. That's great to hear! Venture funded, or bootstrapped / self-funded?
Did you build the business in Qatar?

~~~
616c
I'm guessing UAE. Qatar insists they are good for this stuff. But they only
recently started making good on deregulation promises they have made for
years. Not sure but I think the Qatari free economic zone near KSA is still
only becoming an imminent reality. UAE has had them plural for years.

~~~
TuringNYC
Qatar and UAE both have interesting free-hold business zones ideal for IP-
heavy work. One of the interesting aspects of some zones is that they are
chartered to do all dispute resolution via foreign law (e.g. UK law)

You are right, UAE is _way_ ahead on the freezone aspect. Qatar, however, is
way ahead on the academic front with the most concentrated selection of
western academic branches
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_City](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_City)).
For us, having a Cornell University Medical School branch next door, complete
with tenured Cornell Med School professors was a huge sell for Qatar.

------
salimmadjd
If SV has a true moral compass, that was so outraged by Travis Kalanick
sitting on Trump's tech advisory board [1] they should be truly angry and
outraged by Alphabet and its leadership for this move.

Saudi Arabia, a country that has barbaric set of laws against women, and
domestic workers [2] [3] which essentially the type of slavery we have not
seen broadly in centuries.

A country with very negative human rights records [4] that should be
sanctioned by UN [5]

It's so unthinkable that Alphabet, the "Don't be Evil" company would even
consider that.

It does not even make business sense, as the country is in the midsts of
internal clashes [6] and not very stable nor it has any human capital that can
help google [7]

So, I'm lead to believe it's trading Saudi money for Google's brand to help
create PR. So basically Google is used to promote evil!

[1][https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/02/travis-
ka...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/02/travis-kalanick-
delete-uber-leaves-trump-council)

[2] www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-34483504

[3] [https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/9ae4qd/where-maids-
ar...](https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/9ae4qd/where-maids-are-treated-
like-slaves)

[4][https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-
chapters/saudi...](https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-
chapters/saudi-arabia)

[5] [https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/12/19/its-time-un-sanction-
sau...](https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/12/19/its-time-un-sanction-saudi-
arabias-crown-prince)

[6] [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-06/saudi-
ara...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-06/saudi-arabia-
arrests-11-princes-protesting-over-bills-okaz-says)

[7][https://www.researchgate.net/publication/296195348_Exploring...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/296195348_Exploring_Recent_Saudi_Human_Capital_Development_Initiatives_An_Evaluation)

~~~
lern_too_spel
> nor it has any human capital that can help google [7]

You don't need very much skilled labor to run a data center. The data centers
in South Carolina are running just fine.

If Aramco is putting any money into this, they are getting swindled.

------
Bucephalus355
Why would Google do this, along with their recent announcement for an AI
office in China. What’s with their support of authoritarian regimes from the
tech side? It’s an area unexplored by experience and regulation and which bad
governments will certainly abuse in ways unseen.

~~~
lern_too_spel
How does a data center support an authoritarian regime, and why don't Amazon's
planned data centers in Saudi Arabia also support an authoritarian regime?

~~~
cobookman
Makes it harder for the us to go to war. Imagine if Afghanistan had lots of US
company / investments. There'd be more backlash.

~~~
tj-teej
Reminds me of the Toby Ziegler quote from The West Wing:
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0745679/quotes/qt0993895](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0745679/quotes/qt0993895)

------
gaius
I wonder how they’re pitching this in Silly Valley to their existing staff
there, esp. in the wake of the Damore Affair.

~~~
13years
It is that moment you realize that stated principles are not congruent with
actions and just maybe those principle were mostly political theater

------
taneq
I wonder what compromise they'll make between respecting the local culture and
promoting equal outcomes for women?

------
test001only
Selling weapons worth 100 billion dollars, using oil from said country - no
problem. Google considers opening campus - they are evil.

~~~
colanderman
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that there's a strong correlation between
those denouncing Google's move and those who denounce weapon sales to and oil
purchases from Saudi Arabia.

------
olfactory
This is consistent with Alphabet's trajectory of becoming a defense
contractor.

One might ask why during peak oil on the precipice of a major decline in
relevance of Saudi Arabia (partner to the US military and client state of the
US Government) this would be happening.

There must be a need to have US-guided firms crowd out any other tech
infrastructure investment in Saudi, to provide a substrate more friendly to
surveillance and psychological operations projects in the future.

There is also the factor that because we are at peak oil, Saudi elites have an
unprecedented amount of wealth and they can simply transfer some of it to
Alphabet in exchange for the increased political clout that teaming up with a
major defense contractor offers.

Note that for all the moralizing done by Google about not being evil,
censorship, etc., Alphabet is teaming up with one of the most backward and
corrupt regimes in the modern world, a regime that would have been replaced by
something far more democratic long ago if it weren't for support by the US
Government.

So while in general economic cooperation makes wars less likely and helps
reinforce private sector independence from the public sector (which is
generally a good thing) anything involving Saudi or Alphabet is clearly a
government sponsored, military-focused operation at its core.

It's going to be pretty hard for Alphabet employees to explain to their
grandchildren why they worked for a company that was known to cooperate with
US domestic surveillance programs and team up with undemocratic monarchies.

The greatest human evils are not obvious like scary monsters in movies, they
creep up around us with the support of many reasonable people.

------
mpweiher
"Don't be evil"

~~~
borplk
"Don't be evil too soon."

------
baldajan
Reading the comments, there seems to be a lot of misconceptions and biases.
But one general rule that’s been thrown out the window: Goverment is not the
same as the People.

A tech hub, bringing coding, tech and entrepreneurship to a region (any
region) is a good thing. It creates opportunities and helps lower and middle
income individuals/family grow.

~~~
13years
Only if a company can operate free of implementing a governments tyrannical
policies.

The question is if such a company will actually be free to serve/help the
people or will it be a tool of the oppressive regime

~~~
Cthulhu_
Google might be a good example of that actually - they pulled out of China
because they refused to conform to the regime there.

~~~
gaius
Because the regime wouldn’t let them make enough money there

FTFY

------
nsnick
Google should not do business in countries that commit gross human rights
abuses.

~~~
sfifs
Sure. And you should stop driving/riding petroleum using vehicles because fuel
demand props up prices and funds these countries.

~~~
BeetleB
Most of the oil in the US does not come from the Middle East.

~~~
sfifs
please read what I've written carefully. if the us didn't use so much oil,
global oil prices would be much much lower and wouldn't enrich these
countries.

------
rektide
Coincidentally I'm sure, Saudi Arabia has recently awarded the first contract
for their $500b city Neom:
[https://www.argaam.com/en/article/articledetail/id/527290](https://www.argaam.com/en/article/articledetail/id/527290)

------
everdev
For such a wealthy country with rich history and strong economic ties to the
US, I've never heard of anyone visiting Saudi Arabia and I've never seen any
promotions or advertisements to visit.

Are there travel restrictions there?

~~~
Cthulhu_
[https://wikitravel.org/en/Saudi_Arabia](https://wikitravel.org/en/Saudi_Arabia)
has a nice overview:

* No entry if you're from or have been to Israel * No entry if you're from or have been from a country afflicted with ebola * No entry if you're from Quatar * Heavy punishments up to death if you don't follow their laws. That is, no pork, no alcohol, no non-islam religions, no homosexuality, porn, or unmarried sex.

Also keep the clothing things in mind; no shorts / t-shirt there, and women
probably need to cover their heads.

Anyway, I did see tourism adverts on TV, advertising the sail hotel and such
(forgot the name).

~~~
TuringNYC
Certainly not defending SA, but...

Sail hotel is in Dubai (in the U.A.E.)...different country.

As for the laws, pretty much everything goes inside compounds, which is where
nearly all westerners live.

------
gadders
I wonder how they square this with their commitment to diversity?

~~~
Cthulhu_
Diverse countries they settle in and where they adjust to local laws and
customs maybe?

Diversity also includes operating in countries that are not as liberal as e.g.
the US pretends to be; it's the only way to get a diverse world view for
anyone. Closing your eyes for a culture as different as e.g. Saudi Arabia is
not the way to go.

~~~
gadders
Well, I'm all in favour of different cultures. I don't think that justifies
illiberal or, for want of a better word, evil cultures.

------
pfarnsworth
Creating a Tech Hub where women are treated worse than dogs is despicable on
the part of Google. They should be ashamed of themselves.

------
prepend
This is an odd partnership. Is this part of some new uber lobbying effort by
Google to buy business in Saudi Arabia? Or is this strategic to partner with
Aramco over Exxon or BP.

Or is it some sort of investment in hydrocarbon energy to make up for all
their renewable data centers?

Seems like a weird direction for Google. Especially since I think this is the
first “tech hub” they have started in a specific country. Would be way cooler
if it was in Nigeria or some developing nation with really high potential.

~~~
ejanus
They will be in Nigeria soon . They have fine-tuned YouTube so that with
crappy networks they are amazingly fast in Nigeria and most of West African
countries. Google is aggressively pushing heir products in this region.

------
cryoshon
horrendous. US based companies need to stake a moral stand against working
with backwards regimes with ongoing human rights violations. google is no
exception.

money chasing is, of course, amoral.

to be clear, this isn't even a case of "oh but they were forced into it" or
"they'll go out of business if they don't"\-- not that either of those absolve
responsibility.

they're working to make this happen. they WANT to support the saudi regime.

i guess some people will try to break out the old "not everything is black and
white" chestnut wrt the saudi government. unfortunately this is in fact an
issue that is black and white with no moral ambiguity; the saudis execute
dissidents, oppress women, suppress free speech, are waging a war of
starvation against civilians in yemen, all while supporting jihadists
worldwide. the average saudi person is probably a nice person.

but that doesn't make it okay to do business with them.

~~~
s0rin
It also falls on consumers to choose not to support such companies if they
fail to abide by our moral code of ethics.

Plugging for duckduckgo - making the switch is easy, free, and without ethical
mishaps.

~~~
maze-le
Also:

\- using umatrix to block requests to googleapis, google analytics, etc.

\- dont use alphabets other products (youtube, hangouts, chrome, blogger,
google earth, etc.)

\- dont use frameworks from google or google associated companies (angular,
gwt, tensorflow)

\- dont use gogoles dns service if you happen to live in a opressive regime,
that utilizes dns blocking

Doing this is perfectly possible, but you will isolate yourself very quickly.
I use DDG since a while, and its an adequate search engine. But everything
else... way too much hassle...

------
tboyd47
Cool. I wonder if this will lead to a rise in interest in open-source
technology over there.

------
ttul
This would really sheik things up.

~~~
atonse
I don't know if you're a dad but this is pretty much the quintessential dad
joke! As a dad, I upvote.

------
wand3r
For mobile users with low bandwith please post a text dump or non paywall
link.

------
hodder
How do we get around the paywall on this? Google workaround no longer works
and WSJ isn't worth a subscription to me.

~~~
lern_too_spel
Bookmarklet:

javascript:(function(){window.location = window.location.href.replace('//',
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