
'Mindful people' feel less pain - dnetesn
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-09-mindful-people-pain-mri-imaging.html
======
nabla9
I think Marvin Minsky had it right in his book The Emotion Machine (2006):

From Chapter III. From Pain to Suffering

>Why does the sensation called pain sometimes lead to what we call suffering?
How could such a simple event distort all your other thoughts so much? This
chapter proposes a theory of this: if a pain is intense and persistent enough,
it will stir up a certain set of resources, and then these, in turn, arouse
some more. Then, if this process continues to grow, your mind becomes a victim
of the kind of spreading, large-scale “cascade” that overcomes the rest of the
mind, as we depicted in §1-7:

Then he quotes Daniel Dennett:

> “If you can make yourself study your pains (even quite intense pains) you
> will find, as it were, no room left to mind them: (they stop hurting).
> However studying a pain (e.g., a headache) gets boring pretty fast, and as
> soon as you stop studying them, they come back and hurt, which, oddly
> enough, is sometimes less boring than being bored by them and so, to some
> degree, preferable."

The whole chapter is online:
[http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/E3/eb3.html](http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/E3/eb3.html)

~~~
danharaj
Hah. There's definitely pain out there that can't be studied to oblivion.
Anyone so pompous hasn't experienced, for example, a cluster headache.

~~~
GW150914
_Hah. There 's definitely pain out there that can't be studied to oblivion.
Anyone so pompous hasn't experienced, for example, a cluster headache._

Or passed a kidney stone, or had a thrombosed hemorrhoid, or been tortured. I
think there’s a difference between breathing through lower back pain, and
trying to contextualize someone threading a live wire up your urethra to make
you talk. Even if you’re exceptionally good with pain, most people are going
to have trouble with _damage_ too. If you start cutting off someone’s fingers,
they’re going to lose their zen in a hurry.

But hey, maybe we’re wrong, but to people who think I’d say... go to a burn
unit and see if you can make a difference where nothing short of a medically
induced coma can. There’s a Nobel prize with your name on it if you succeed.

~~~
kranner
There was the Vietnamese Buddhist monk who self-immolated in public. He
appeared to remain calm throughout. Searching for "the burning monk 1963" will
turn up images and videos, though I won't link to them here.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c)

~~~
andai
XKCD 846: "It's hard to imagine the pain of a deeply infected dental nerve. To
get an idea, put your hands in a bowl full of ice cubes, and hold them there
for 90 seconds."

Here Randall is using this example as one of the worst pains in the world,
while others submerge themselves in ice baths voluntarily for health and
enjoyment (eg. Wim Hof the ice man)

There is something about facing an unpleasant stimulus (to put it lightly)
voluntarily that changes the neurology, and the subjective experience of it.

~~~
GW150914
There’s also something to be said about the brevity of pain, even if the end
is death. As incredible as thst monk’s composure was, hismnerves would have
been dead within a short time, and he would have followed in a minute or two.
Still an amazing thing to maintain himself in the face of that, butmits
different than the same or worse pain for hours, days, or weeks. Being burned
hurts, but anyone who has been badly burned can tell you it hurts so much more
_after_ the acute injury. Sticking your hand in ice really does hurt, but you
can stop it anytime you want, and while it hurts it’s in an extremity. As
someone who’s done that, and had an infected dental nerve can attest, it
hardly compares. This may sound off but the fact that the pain is in your head
makes it somehow worse, more inescapable and debilitating.

I never felt so much relief as I did when the endodontist gave me novicaine,
and a large bolus in your palette isn’t pleasant either. Still it was like a
cool breeze of relief next to that tooth. People are always scared of root
canals, but the truth is that if you need one, it’s actually nothing at all
next to the pain that brought you there.

------
mcculley
Mindfulness meditation taught me something that Haruki Murakami describes well
about running: “Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.”

~~~
nickthemagicman
Just curious what the difference is? Suffering is your reaction to the pain?
Like if you're stoic you acknowledge the pain but continue on with out
suffering?

~~~
wilburTheDog
I think the suffering is the result of your desire for things to be different
than what they are. It's natural to feel like you want a headache to go away,
but it seems to me that the more I accept that this is just the way it is
right now, the more I embrace the pain and accept it as a part of me, the less
power it has over me. And conversely the more I try to push it away like it's
some kind of monster that's torturing me the more it becomes one. I have
actually had that experience while meditating with a headache. Fully embracing
and identifying with the pain makes it hurt less. It's a weird paradox because
you can't start by thinking "I want this pain to go away so I'm going to
embrace it". That doesn't work. You have to start with the attitude of "I'm
going to be fully present for this moment, whatever it is". That is the path
that leads out of suffering.

~~~
projektir
Suffering is not a desire that humans invent. It's hard-coded into every
evolved creature so that the creature then goes on to do things to avoid said
suffering. The source of these things that the creature is wanting is
distinctly non-human.

There was no council of people who have decided that moving animals need to
consume energy in the form of food, and that they would feel pain if they do
not consume enough of this energy in time. Yet here it is, and every creature
is enslaved by it.

Adult, well-read humans blessed with mental faculties are at times able to
cheat the mental pathway and come up with ways to not have it show up at the
forefront, but there's nothing self-inflicted about suffering, and assigning
quasi-religious themes to this process is not doing us any favors.

~~~
adrianmonk
> _It 's hard-coded into every evolved creature so that the creature then goes
> on to do things to avoid said suffering._

I like the theory that many emotions, especially negative ones, exist to spur
us to some type of action.

Anger means we need a way to resolve a conflict. Fear means we need to take
steps to protect ourselves. Regret means we need some introspection to
discover how we should do things differently in the future. Revulsion means we
need to avoid something. (This applies in less abstract, more visceral ways
too. Hunger means we need to eat. Physical pain means we are reaching our
physical limits.)

Anyway, a lot of suffering comes about because we don't take any action. When
the situation continues to exist, the negative emotion continues to exist.

This isn't to say we should just all act rashly to get rid of our negative
feelings. Obviously the right action is important. But sometimes just getting
started is enough to help feel better. And if you've already done what you
could or should have, sometimes it helps to realize that or remind yourself of
it.

~~~
projektir
My framework on this matter is much more... negative. I perceive these
emotions more as a means of control, a form of slavery, and only a helpful
guidance towards the original end. Kind of like you could give a slave some
ways of foraging for food and some tools to fend off wild animals, but
ultimately only so that the slave would build the pyramid better or faster,
and not for the benefit of the slave.

This means that the suffering is not always aligned. This is very not obvious
since our association of "feels bad == bad" and "feels good == good" is very
strong since it's so obviously hardcoded. But it's not hardcoded for your
benefit, it's there for building the pyramid, remember that.

A lot of it is quite obvious in the issue of short term vs long term
gratification, but there are more complex interactions. People can drown in
guilt when something bad was done to them, and a person may be very happy from
a sexual encounter, unable to see the causal link between it and the alimony
payments they'll soon be making. Reason is necessary, emotions are a blunt
instrument. Intuition is better than raw emotions, but requires calibration.
Emotion and intuition can be overwritten, to some extent, which is what most
of this thread is about.

But quite often, the incentives do align, as we're one of the more advanced
and successful species out there, which means we're less likely to be
afflicted with the kinds of sufferings and pleasures that lead to a loss of
power (i.e., musth in elephants).

------
miguelmota
Unhappiness comes from reality not meeting expectations. Have no expectations
and always be happy. Worrying about events outside of your control is
pointless. Everyone needs some stoicism in their lives. Indifference is a
power

~~~
ironmagma
That's easy to say, and very difficult for people in certain circumstances.
With chronic illness and chronic pain, life can be very, very unbearable. We
do have a built-in expectation of being able to, for instance, exist without
being brought back to the world of pain every 3-5 minutes at random intervals.
Not every expectation is willed into existence.

~~~
miguelmota
Agree that in situations where you're experiencing chronic pain is much
difficult but having a stoic mindset can reduce the domino effects of pain.
Anxiety is the difference between reality and expectations, and worrying about
whether it's going to get worse or last forever is only going to make it
worse. A stoic realizes that physical pain is sensory based and this pain is
an automatic response from the body. The pain they bear with but don't react
negatively and pessimistic about possible outcomes imagined by the mind.
Celebrating the few moments of feeling no pain is way more effective than
stressing over all the time when it does hurt. Easier said than done of course

~~~
ianai
As a chronic migraine sufferer, I do have an ability to compartmentalize the
pain, but only to an extent. There are also very hard constraints on my
comfort. If I’m in pain there are any number of things that a pain free person
could on average do that would spike the pain above the “freak out” point.

Stoicism is definitely something I practice, and migraines easily surpass
that. Some I get are known as “suicide migraines”. In short, the monks pain
ended with his life within moments, but chronic pain by definition lasts
longer.

------
ehnto
Anecdata, but I have a condition that led to a childhood and young adulthood
of chronic pain. I noticed my way of handling pain I am aware is going to
happen is vastly different to other scenarios. If I know it's going to happen,
I feel it but feel no need to react. It just happens, and I can keep thinking
and operating as if nothing is going wrong. But I still react to unexpected
bumps even if they don't actually hurt that much (or at all).

I just thought it was nifty that my body can tell the difference and is happy
to bypass the reactive part of pain when it wouldn't help.

------
amingilani
I've definitely felt this. I'm more 'mindful' as the article says.. in the
sense that I can step outside my emotions and control them.

As in, if I'm getting angry, I can step outside the anger and evaluate whether
it's necessary or helpful at the moment or not. If it isn't, I stop it.
Otherwise, I let the anger creep into my voice to make the other person more
receptive to the urgency of the situation.

It works similarly for other emotions: like, fear, shame, jealousy,
frustration or even sadness... which is why I don't often cry at funerals.

I don't know if that makes me a sociopath or not, but it definitely makes me
more rational.

That said, I also seem to feel a lot less pain than my wife who tends to panic
easier. If I stub my toe, cut my finger or even accidentally grab a falling
soldering iron from the wrong end, I can disassociate from the pain, or at
least give it a back seat. The hand is mine, but the pain feels like someone
else's.

As such, I get a lot more cuts and bruises than my wife. I've even had
instances where I had bleeding cuts on my hand that I kept thinking were
itches.. I kept confusing the blood for mysterious coppery liquid oozing out
of the device I was repairing. Turns out I'd nicked my fingers prying it
open.. explained how the liquid kept coming back after I wiped it.

~~~
jdkoeck
Are you sure you're just "more rational"? None of that seems mindful. It
sounds like you're bordering dissociative disorder.

~~~
finnthehuman
You've taken someone's mastery of a life skill we expect of all adults
(emotional self-control) and are pointing to the closest pathological
condition you can find even though it's mile and miles away from what the
parent poster describes.

~~~
jdkoeck
Parent poster is confusing his own blood with “mysterious coppery liquid”,
even after wiping it several times off his fingers. That’s not a good sign.

------
throwanem
Amazing. There's actually worse popular science reporting out there than what
_Popular Science_ puts out.

~~~
cpncrunch
In what way?

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ericand
If I understand correctly, they say that meditation deactivates default mode
and this has a positive impact on pain tolerance. Interestingly, there is lots
of discussion on the importance and value of default mode for creativity and
other things. Are these at odds or have I misunderstood?

~~~
thedirt0115
I had never heard of "default mode" before this. Do you have any suggested
reading on the topic, especially around creativity?

~~~
xanthopan
Maybe only tangentially related, but Michael Pollan's recent book about
psychedelics "How To Change Your Mind" goes in-depth on this. There's
something about being able to quiet the "default mode network" that lends the
mind to transcendental/creative thought. The same effect can be achieved
through meditation or breathwork.

~~~
pfd1986
Also moral tribes, by Joshua Greene. These 2 were the best books I read this
year.

------
desmondw
The concept of being more pain-free is dangerous to take at face value. Being
'pain-free' through mindfulness comes from a deep understanding of any given
pain, which comes from feeling it fully and coming to terms with that feeling.
Which, is itself very painful.

------
yawgmoth
If anyone is interested in developing mindfulness, I like Full Catastrophe
Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn.

~~~
ollerac
I've been listening to his Guided Mindfulness Meditations a few times a week.
The body scan has been a phenomenal way of for me to relax into the difficult
emotions and feelings I sometimes experience. Highly recommended.

~~~
FPGAhacker
I can’t stay awake through it. Which is okay. I often don’t sleep well so I’m
chronically deprived.

~~~
daniel_iversen
Don’t lie down while meditating and don’t meditate in your bedroom. Also try
not to have your head resting on anything while meditating. Lastly, apparently
with certain kinds of meditation if you do fall asleep that’s ok too - it’s
your body ridding itself of fatigue - you probably need more sleep :)

------
m3mpp
Pain is also linked to fear, so more mindfulness, less fear and less pain.
Some people, while physically training can inflict extreme pains on their
bodies, but without any fear whatsoever, so they're ok, even enjoying it for
some, "working hard!"

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whack
I don't know how much I really believe this. Could this be a case of false
correlation, as opposed to causation? Most medical advice for dealing with
pain tells you to distract yourself from the pain, and certainly not to focus
on it. Whereas mindfulness exhorts us to focus on our immediate circumstances,
and not distract ourselves with more abstract thoughts. These 2 approaches to
pain-management seem very contradictory.

[https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/qa/what-are-some-
ways-...](https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/qa/what-are-some-ways-to-
distract-yourself-from-chronic-pain)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15745617](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15745617)

------
gmoore
[https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-mindfulness-
meditation-s...](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-mindfulness-meditation-
science-based/)

------
qubax
Or people who feel less pain gravitate toward being "mindful".

Not that we can get an objective definition of "mindful" and "pain". Also we
have no objective way of measuring either.

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QuadrupleA
Didn't realize that neuroscience has investigated mindfulness directly like
this. Very cool. I've long found that practice useful, to focus as directly on
pain as I can; it becomes manageable, even sort of interesting in a way. The
alternatives, like attempting to escape via addictions / distractions, don't
usually turn out well.

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codr4
I've done more Yoga than most and suffered from chronic pain after a climbing
accident for a long time. The reaction to pain makes a big difference, and
it's very difficult to react in a sane way when your ego is left running the
show while you're out time traveling.

------
Mikhail_Edoshin
In certain practices pain is treated as a message and your best response is to
attentively listen to it, without judgement and even without a desire to end
it. This, naturally, changes the way one experiences pain.

------
sridca
They may experience the same intensity of physical pain, but _feel_ less of
it, which makes sense as mindfulness meditation trains one to emotionally
dissociate from anything painful (affectively or physically).

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yters
So if the suffering of others bothers us, all we need to do is remind
ourselves it is their fault they are letting the pain get to them, and go on
about our business. Hurrah!

------
trukterious
My experience is that stopping and paying attention to a stubbed toe makes it
more bearable than yelling and hopping around the room.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
If not for yourself, for your roommates and cat.

------
davesque
It's interesting that I had to scroll all the way to the bottom to find the
skeptical comments.

------
ryandrake
> "Mindfulness is related to being aware of the present moment without too
> much emotional reaction or judgment," said the study's lead author, Fadel
> Zeidan

I've always thought of the word "mindfulness" as one of those vague, new-age
nonsense terms, like "psionic body energy" and "ethereal consciousness". Even
given the above quoted definition, I still have no idea what it means. Does
anyone know what is an example of mindfulness, or an example of the opposite?
I don't know anyone, besides maybe Alzheimer's sufferers, who is actually
unaware of the present time.

EDIT: Thanks everyone for the many replies. I think the variety of different
answers speaks volumes about this topic.

~~~
ksdale
I'm sure this isn't entirely accurate, but I think it can be analogized to
Sherlock Holmes' powers of observation. Everyone sees but they don't observe.
They don't notice details about anything. Mindfulness is like that but more
internal. Of course everyone is "aware" of the present time in a trivial
sense, but lots of people spend a ton of their time lost in daydreams or
reliving old arguments or mindlessly browsing FB or Hacker News. And it's not
that that's a bad thing, just that they have no idea what their brain is
doing, they just let it go wherever it will. Mindfulness is actually
witnessing and understanding your state of mind.

I feel like the opposite of mindfulness is when you're driving to work in the
morning and you realize you're already there and you have no idea where the
time went.

~~~
agumonkey
Agreed.

Also I firmly believe that most of modern life causes that.

Walking, climbing, physical efforts, crafting.. and others, aller require a
vastly deeper engagement. Oh also music.

------
muterad_murilax
As do psychopaths.

