
Mathematicians Are Hoarding a Type of Japanese Chalk - curtis
http://gizmodo.com/why-mathematicians-are-hoarding-this-special-type-of-ja-1711008881
======
hkmurakami
I remember news of the demise of the company hitting Japanese media outlets a
couple of months ago. Here are some tidbits from that article that weren't
covered by the Gizmodo piece:

\- A group of American mathematicians reportedly purchased 1 metric ton of the
chalk.

\- Hagoromo was a technologically pioneering company, with things like (1)
innovations in a greener manufacturing process for chalk, (2) chalk that can
write on a wet blackboard surface, and (3) colored chalk that could be
discerned by people who are color blind.

\- The company is shutting down not because of revenue problems, but because
of the ailing health of the President and lack of a successor. Iirc the
current president is the 3rd head of the company in its history.

~~~
MichaelCrawford
"Lack of a successor".

This is a very common problem these days; during the winter I bought a sweater
at a Portland outdoor gear shop after searching all over creation for real
wool clothing as it was a bitterly cold winter.

The owner told me that he could not find someone to buy his store as everyone
shops online these days. When he retires he's just going to shut it down.

~~~
jotm
Can't he hire someone who would go online?

------
alister
All sorts of high-quality stationery are becoming impossible to find. I used
to love poking around real stationery stores as a kid. Today's "warehouse"
stores are a lot less fun that a real stationer. For people who don't know, a
real stationer would have 10x the number of SKUs that Staples and Office Depot
carry.

\- Elastic bands from almost any store today are now a synthetic beige or
grayish-tan material that is much less springy than pure rubber, and it rots
leaving a sticky residue in less than a year. A real stationer used to have
dozens of shapes and sizes of elastics, not 3 or 4 choices you have now.

\- A high quality manual stapler is really hard to find. I haven't found any
equal to my Apsco 2002 stapler which is no longer made. Everything I tried
jams more often.

\- If you want to put an envelope snugly inside a slightly larger envelope --
for example, to enclose a reply envelope -- good luck finding that in any
brick-and-mortar store today. You'll have to order it.

Those huge arts and crafts stores like Michaels do have an overlap with what a
real stationer used to be, but it's not a superset.

I've noticed some differences by country too: Compared to the US, good quality
stationery is very hard to find in Brazil (even in rich neighborhoods)[1].
Generally in brick-and-mortar stores in Western Europe, you find high-quality
stationery more easily than in the US warehouse stores. I've never been to
Japan, so I'm curious to know what it's like there.

[1]
[http://brazilsense.com/index.php?title=Items_more_expensive_...](http://brazilsense.com/index.php?title=Items_more_expensive_and_less_expensive_in_Brazil)

~~~
MichaelCrawford
I've been a coder for 27 years. My experience was that it was always far more
effective to apply for jobs with dead-tree cover letters, resumes and
envelopes, all on matching stationery.

I prefer a formal yet understated look, either pale blue or pale grey
watermarked cotton bond.

A while back I looked for matching paper and envelopes at office depot. I
quite sadly found a few scattered boxes of paper and envelopes, but none that
matched each other.

I have two partially empty boxes of paper but no envelopes. I know I can order
them online but I far prefer to support brick-and-mortar stores.

I went shopping for what I thought was a desk lamp but it turned out I wanted
a "task lamp". I found just the right lamp at Sears.com so I dropped by a
Sears store in Portland.

"No, we don't carry lamps but you can find them all on our website," said the
cheery young salesgirl.

"Yes I know, I found just the lamp I want at Sears.com," I solemnly replied.

"But the reason I am here today is so you will have a job."

Her face fell; that had simply not occurred to her.

~~~
joe5150
Whether it occurred to her or not, she most likely has absolutely nothing to
do with Sears' inventory decisions, so I don't understand what the need of
saying something like that is.

~~~
worklogin
Perhaps to get other people to realize the impact of online-all-the-time
shopping has on brick and mortar retail and the people it employs, and the
human contact lost.

I might have said the same thing, with no malice.

~~~
joe5150
Then your problem is with the corporate office, and not individual salespeople
who don't need to be reminded that they're being obsoleted by online shopping,
and who can't do anything about it even if you do.

~~~
MichaelCrawford
I don't think she was aware that the corporate office was working towards
obsoleting her.

I eventually found the exact same lamp at Fred Meyer.

One time I went to pay my AT&T bill. "Use the kiosk" they said. "No I want to
pay in cash." "We can take cash but there's a fifteen dollar service charge
for that."

"I just took the bus twenty miles so you will have a job."

------
GuiA
I grew up writing on blackboards, so obviously this is purely my subjective
preference, but I also find blackboards much better to think on than
whiteboards. One thing I particularly don't like is that I tend to write quite
fast; the faster you write, the more likely it is that a marker will leave a
thin, washed out, barely legible stroke, whereas chalk is always nice and
clear. I also tend to leave things up on my board for a few days, after which
a lot of dry erase markers become a pain to erase, whereas chalk always erases
nicely.

I have a whiteboard in my office, but if I could get it switched out with a
blackboard without bothering my nice office manager who already has way too
much work to be bothered by my weird requests, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

~~~
tzs
I was not allowed to have a blackboard in my office because the boss said the
chalk dust gets into the computers and causes problems (or makes you have to
clean them frequently). We were a software company, so there were a bazillion
computers around.

I don't know if this is true or not, and if it is true whether or not with
careful use you can avoid the problem, but if you ever do ask for a
blackboard, make sure you have some answer for this in case someone brings it
up as an objection.

~~~
xkcd-sucks
Whiteboards also make dust in the form of dried ink...

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
It is nothing compared to the quantity of chalk dust generated. I've used
chalkboards for years though in computer labs and around other electronic
equipment, it has no noticeable effect.

------
ot
In case anyone's wondering what the formula on the blackboard is:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupper's_self-
referential_form...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupper's_self-
referential_formula)

------
nwhitehead
In my mind the real tragedy is blackboards. Almost nowhere has good
blackboards anymore except for math departments in older universities that
stubbornly refuse to replace their old boards. Since the 1970s everything has
been replaced with inferior materials.

~~~
scott_karana
What makes for a good blackboard? Could they be reproduced?

~~~
nwhitehead
The old good ones are heavy, dark, and silky smooth. The new ones are lighter,
noisier, have more friction, and erasing leaves more of a mess (in my
opinion). Reading online people say that the old slate ones were harder to
erase and had glare problems. I agree with the glare, the old style boards do
show glare from sunlight coming in from side windows which is annoying.

------
fsk
The reason you have problems with markers is that, when a marker is out of
ink, people put it back on the whiteboard instead of throwing it in the trash.

~~~
moultano
That's a strange phenomena. People don't seem to think of whiteboard markers
as disposable things. If one isn't writing they think it either needs to be
fixed, or that they aren't using it correctly and it might resume writing
later. I've tried to fight this by ostentatiously throwing them immediately in
the trash the first time they stop writing, and it seems to be catching. I
don't encounter nearly as many empty ones as I used to.

~~~
untog
The problem is likely that there aren't spares available. For some reason
companies are notorious for locking up whiteboard pens and only giving new
ones when you've signed some obscure form in triplicate.

~~~
anigbrowl
I feel irrationally responsible. I used to steal them out of the stationary
cupboard in high school during the 1980s and give them away to anyone who
wanted some, and was surprised at how popular they were with other students.
At the time I thought that either everyone else liked art class as much as I
did, or that perhaps some of them were using them for graffiti, but some years
later it dawned on me that they provided a relatively safe way to abuse
solvents :-.

------
nosuchthing
Price history is interesting [1], I'll take a guess that information of
Hagoromo discontinuing this product went viral in January.

[1] [http://camelcamelcamel.com/Hagoromo-Fulltouch-White-
Chalk-72...](http://camelcamelcamel.com/Hagoromo-Fulltouch-White-
Chalk-72pcs/product/B007R76ND2?context=browse)

~~~
anigbrowl
Oh my goodness what a wonderful site. I wanted to make something like this
years ago and even registered a domain (buyitwhen.com) but everyone I
explained the idea to just laughed at me and I didn't really know how to get
started on it. Who's laughing now? Well mostly the people who are monetizing
this thing but I am laughing along with them in an I-knew-it-would-work
fashion. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

------
blt
Watch video lectures from MIT, they know what's up. 9 blackboards sliding on
vertical rails. The lecturer doesn't have to waste time erasing boards, and
the history stays up for a long time in case students fall behind on their
notes.

~~~
mavhc
Ah yes, pre Gutenberg teaching, the lecture version of 100 monks making copies
of your work

~~~
tfgg
You know what? Those lectures were the ones I remember 10x better than the
ones with printed handouts and powerpoint slides.

~~~
mavhc
Well, the Gutenberg Method of teaching suggests that instead of just reading
handouts in the lecture you read them beforehand and do the problem solving in
the lecture time, when you have the experts available to help when you find
out you actually don't understand.

[http://entropysite.oxy.edu/morrison.html](http://entropysite.oxy.edu/morrison.html)

~~~
tfgg
Ok, but I'd tend to call those "classes" or "supervisions"/"tutorials" if in
small groups.

That essay seems to focus on how copying from the blackboard can go wrong,
without covering the experience since 1986 of how powerpoint and handouts go
even more wrong.

This isn't to say I totally disagree. I didn't bother with many lectures in
undergrad, and most of my learning happened in classes/supervisions, which I
guess are equivalent to what that guy calls the "Gutenberg method". It's just
that I found when the lecture was copying from a blackboard, it tended to be
worthwhile going - especially since it forces a slower pace and forces you to
read the material exactly.

------
NoGravitas
The solution to your whiteboard woes: don't use dry-erase markers. Use
washable crayons (as sold for small children). You'll never be surprised by an
empty marker again. They take a damp cloth to wipe off, but they wipe off
completely, regardless of how long they've been on the board.

~~~
Pxtl
My experience is they don't wash as well as dry-erase markers.

Propbably the best approach is just to carry two sets of dry-erase markers
everywhere, one always sealed.

------
kqr2
OT, however, this made me think of Brandon Sanderson's book _The Rithmatist_
where chalk and its formulation is an integral part of magic.

[http://smile.amazon.com/Rithmatist-Brandon-Sanderson-
ebook/d...](http://smile.amazon.com/Rithmatist-Brandon-Sanderson-
ebook/dp/B00AJGNICW/)

------
quasiresearcher
I remember a discussion about this on MathOverlow
[http://mathoverflow.net/questions/26267/where-to-buy-
premium...](http://mathoverflow.net/questions/26267/where-to-buy-premium-
white-chalk-in-the-u-s-like-they-have-at-rims)

~~~
monochromatic
I remember that being linked from this article.

------
jipumarino
I taught with blackboard and chalk at a university and then at a high school
for 9 years. I'm allergic and hated the chalk with a burning passion.

------
ryanobjc
Someone pointed out that it's really hard to erase white boards. While it's
trivial to erase a blackboard. Better for top secret stuff.

~~~
innguest
Point them to this helpful link. :)

[http://rumkin.com/reference/whiteboard/index.php](http://rumkin.com/reference/whiteboard/index.php)

------
beloch
Another evil of whiteboard markers is that they dry out. Leaving them open
hastens their demise. This is especially noticeable right at the end of their
lives when capping them in between periods of drawing and switching between
several dying markers can get you through a talk.

Chalk is not entirely without treachery itself. The common North American
breed is thinner and prone to snapping if you press too hard. If you don't
bring your own with you, you're likely to have to make do with one of the tiny
stubs that have been left behind. It's also pretty common to run into chalk
brushes that contain more chalk than your chalk box.

------
deerpig
I have two large blackboards in my own office in Phnom Penh. I couldn't live
without them. There is a shop that makes them out of wood. They aren't nearly
as nice as a proper ceramic coated steel chalkboard (they still make these in
china -- look it up on alibaba) but wood still does the job. The only problem
is that it's difficult to find large chalk sticks. Couldn't find them in
Cambodia or Thailand, but there is a shop in Vientiane (the capital of Laos)
that bought a crate of buckets of multi colored sidewalk chalk years ago, and
I'm the only one who buys it. I've now bought at least 10 buckets. The only
problem is that there are only two white sticks in each bucket and Vientiane
is very far from Phnom Penh.... sigh.

------
tenfingers
Blackboards are better, but the argument about superior chalk is pretty dumb.

I had/used everything from blackboards to digital whiteboards. I still like
blackboards better, but it's only going to last as long as digital displays
improve.

Blackboards lasts forever. Whiteboards, especially the cheap ones, inevitably
start to have stains that you cannot clean without some solvent.

Blackboards work with any chalk, essentially. You have to be careful about
whiteboard markers, because many stink to oblivion (I get asthma out of them),
and many others don't erase properly. One of the best markers I tried are the
water-based made from Edding, but they're harder to clean, and you _have_ to
clean within a couple of hours in order to be able to clean at all. Chalk, on
the other hand, lasts forever and can always be cleaned. If you want a perfect
blackboard, just use a damp cloth.

There's this illusion that whiteboards are cleaner. Actually, they're not.
Whiteboard "dry" markers work by depositing a fine powder on the surface. It's
initially suspended in a liquid, and then sticks on the whiteboard "ideally"
only due to electrostatic tension. Dry marker powder is often toxic, the
suspension liquid is often toxic (especially when you breathe it), and the
powder sticks fuc __ng everywhere. If you 're careful when erasing, a
blackboard can be kept very clean. I have one in the kitchen.

The markers are expensive. Especially when you want the good, water-based
ones. I often have to order those. Chalk is inexpensive, I can buy it
anywhere.

Why the hell are we using whiteboards??

I built several whiteboards myself. They suck. The best approach to a
whiteboard is buying a piece of glass the size you want, and gluing a piece of
white adhesive plastic on the _back_ side. Dry marker on the glass _always_
cleans. You might get stains if you leave the marker for days, but they come
off easily, with just water.

Now what.. digital whiteboards. It's a love-hate relationship. They're
completely clean, which is what I like about them, but there are many
downsides too. You need power, which means that you need to switch the screen
off. A white/blackboard on the other hand shows you stuff all the time.

The screen is large, but the pixels are too large. The DPI, at close distance,
is _ridiculous_. They're also too bright when seen at close distance. There's
glare. The "pens" suck. But if you did the same with some e-ink technology, I
would switch to digital whiteboards instantly, as it would solve all these
problems at once. It looks like a dream application where the price of the
display wouldn't matter much (ardesia costs a fortune nowdays anyway).

I had to use at some point an Epson projector which had some whiteboard
capability on it. The pen had an infrared sensor/reflector on top, which meant
that you had to hold the pen without making a shadow between the projector and
the pen. Who's the idiot that thought this would work??

~~~
mrgoldenbrown
So you get asthma from whiteboard markers but chalk dust doesn't bother you?
In my anecdotal experience, that is anomalous.

~~~
tenfingers
The smell of the marker has an almost instantaneous effect, like many
perfumes. I'm not immune to chalk, but chalk doesn't smell/make enough dust by
simply drawing. Things are different when you re-use the cleaning pad too
often. In my place, I always wipe with a damp cloth to avoid the problem.

------
tel
I don't know the reason, but I feel nearly intellectually crippled since
losing access to the multitudes of blackboards available on college campuses.
White boards do not even approach the utility of blackboards for me.

People in this thread have suggested fine tipped markers and washable
crayons—I will try them both!—but I truly feel I will simply not be able to
recover the efficiency and value of a blackboard any time soon.

------
gsam
While I grew up with mostly whiteboards, there's just something magical about
blackboards. Disregarding my disgust for screeching on a blackboard,
mathematics on a chalkboard seems so natural. Where I study they've been
constantly removing blackboards and even whiteboards. Now we're left with
dozens of terrible document cameras, which nobody can be enthusiastic about.

~~~
bryondowd
How is this the only post that mentions the chalkboard screeching? That noise
was the bane of my existence in school. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it
than most, but it would make my skin crawl for the rest of the class, and if
there were someone inexperienced using the board and producing considerable
squeals, I couldn't focus on anything and had to restrain myself from just
getting up and leaving the room.

If for no other reason, this makes whiteboards a godsend.

------
octatoan
[https://mathoverflow.net/questions/26267/where-to-buy-
premiu...](https://mathoverflow.net/questions/26267/where-to-buy-premium-
white-chalk-in-the-u-s-like-they-have-at-rims)

------
facepalm
"there’s no way to tell when a marker is running low"

Hm, maybe that's a problem that can be solved and earn the inventor good
money?

~~~
benplumley
For a product that's disposable, I doubt any such system could justify its
cost.

~~~
noir_lord
[http://i.imgur.com/UDAZQUI.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/UDAZQUI.jpg)

Depends on the cost to implement and the margin you can charge over
competitors I guess.

~~~
Symbiote
The whiteboard pens we have at work have a semi-transparent barrel:

[http://www.postofficeshop.co.uk/images/product/extraLarge/2/...](http://www.postofficeshop.co.uk/images/product/extraLarge/2/D8348_L.jpg)

------
MichaelCrawford
I personally cannot fathom why anyone at all uses whiteboards.

When I was at Caltech, we called our Physical Chemistry prof "Wild Bill
Goddard" because he wore a cowboy hat and boots to his lectures. His course
was largely conceptual, illustrated with balloon-shaped drawings of electron
orbitals, drawn with 3-D projection in which the yellow and red were in the
plane of the chalkboard while the pale blue projected in and out.

We all complained that we could not see the blue diagrams. "That's OK, you're
not supposed to, that's why I use pale blue."

On night Sonja Benson and I snuck into the classroom to put the arm on his
blue chalk. We took it down into the steam tunnels where she doused it with
her hairspray, giving it a hard coating so it would not mark the board
anymore.

The very instant Wild Bill saw what we had done, he cracked his blue stick in
half then continued drawing orbital diagrams we were not meant to see.

~~~
dasmoth
One reason to prefer whiteboards: I find the feeling of touching chalk
unbearable.

~~~
ams6110
There's also the occasional teeth-curling screech when a fingernail or little
bit of hard matter in the chalk scratches the board. Even at that though, I
think I prefer chalkboards.

~~~
apricot
I teach math, and just as some people cannot taste the bitterness in Brussels
sprouts, I'm not affected by the fingernail-on-blackboard noise. I find it
very useful for taming a class of wild freshmen, though. I only have to do it
once.

"It finds the correct delta or else it gets the noise again."

