
Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food - jfren
http://www.crowdedcities.com
======
spaceribs
Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics
class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive
possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild
animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and
appetites.

I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the
domestication of animals by our ancestors for our own survival. This is trash
created by humans, and the human responsible should be the asshole who picks
it up. At that point, we're the ones that should be domesticated, not crows.

~~~
joe_the_user
Would you also object to training the mice that infest our houses to also
engage in activities we consider useful? Perhaps say, training them to do
their business outside?

I mean, to describe the animals, like crows or racoons, which live in cities
and consume human detritus, as "wild" seems like somethings of a misstatement
- I'm not sure what the best term would be but "feral", "parasitic" or
"coadapted" are seem equally good. Training animals in an environment that's
otherwise untouched by humans seems bad for the "naturalness" of said
environment but situation seems no more invasive than spaying feral cats.

Indeed, if anyone is worried about the human domination of nature, they can
take comfort that schemes like this should further raise the intelligence of
crows to the point they'll have a shot at overthrowing the unjust reign of we
naked apes.

~~~
spaceribs
> they can take comfort that schemes like this should further raise the
> intelligence of crows to the point they'll have a shot at overthrowing the
> unjust reign of we naked apes.

Here's the thing I think you're missing with this statement though, our rise
to intelligence had nothing to do with a superior species endowing us with a
head start. In fact, for early man it might have hobbled us to not be
challenged because we're "really good at picking up cigarette butts".

Also, do you want to be the one that explains to the super-intelligent crows
how we used them to pick up garbage?

~~~
joe_the_user
It would be pretty much impossible for another intelligent species to appear
on earth now without relating to human beings as a context. I mean, the
relationship I was groping for above is Synanthrope[1]. Basically, an entire
ecosystem of animals eating and using human garbage already exists - what else
do you imagine these animal eat? Giving animals some training to also pick-up
said garbage seems neither better nor worse than the status quo.

Plus, I don't think anyone will be doing any explaining to the crows - if the
crows rise, they're be using fire and poison to exterminate them in the
fashion we would use if one another species seemed to threaten our dominance.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanthrope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanthrope)

~~~
Mtinie
Unless we create them. There will always be a point that the apex predators
fail to recognize the threat until it is too late.

------
cujic9
Bonus points when the crows learn they can speed up the process by dive
bombing a smoker, causing them to run away in terror, dropping their cigarette
in the process.

~~~
personjerry
Magpies already dive bomb everyone in Australia so they're 50% there

~~~
Consultant32452
Did they learn the technique by watching the drop bears?

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clumsysmurf
This seems neat, but cigarette butts contain toxic chemicals. Training birds
to perform an action, but at the same time possibly poison themselves, is
ethically perverse. What if their population collapses because of the exposure
to something in the butts? (and perhaps this effects other parts of the
ecosystem dependent on the services of crows ... like, but not limited to,
mitigating hygiene hazards via carcass removal).

Maybe we could train the people to pick up their own butts.

~~~
undersuit
Birds have already been observed to use cigarette butts for nest building, and
no resultant population crash has happened for them.

[https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-
cigar...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-
butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/)

Maybe the food being given to the crows is more beneficial than any of the
downsides of the exposure to the butts.

~~~
jackgolding
If you read through to a linked article you'll find there is indeed long term
health effects to the birds
[https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22730341-600-birds-
lo...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22730341-600-birds-love-of-
cigarette-butts-in-nests-has-two-sides-for-chicks/)

~~~
undersuit
I never said there weren't. I specifically worded my comment to suggest that
the benefits might outweigh the harm.

~~~
anotherevan
For instance, if the crows are picking up enough, then there will be less
birds using them for nesting material, which is a more prolonged exposure.

------
ipsum2
> When we started doing research we found out there is a guy in the States
> that is teaching crows to collect coins. His name is Joshua Klein.

It's commonly agreed that this never worked successfully in the wild.

> In that correction the NY Times states that the experiments never succeeded
> in teaching the crows to drop the coins into the slot.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Klein#Crows](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Klein#Crows)

> Klein did get a professor at Binghamton to help him try it out twice in
> Ithaca, with assistance from a Binghamton graduate student, and it was not a
> success. Corvid experts who have since been interviewed have said that
> Klein’s machine is unlikely to work as intended.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/magazine/12letters-t-
CORRE...](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/magazine/12letters-t-
CORRECTIONS-1.html)

~~~
joe_the_user
Coins seem like they'd very difficult for a bird to handle - they're heavy for
their volume and can't be bitten into.

------
retox
As a thought experiment, imagine if this mutually beneficial behaviour went on
for hundreds/thousands of years to the point that the animals lost their
insincts for hunting/finding food independently. It would be a disaster if
suddently humans changed the conditions of the relationship by, for example,
outlawing cigarettes in favour of vaping.

Does anyone know of any real-world examples of this happening? The only ones I
can think of are the domestication of cats, dogs and pigs, but left to their
own devices those animals revert to their natural behaviour fairly quickly.

Edit:

I found this quote unbelievable; "Cigarettes are the most littered item on
earth. Worldwide about 4.5 trillion cigarettes are littered each year." That's
650 for every person on the planet.

~~~
darkstar999
> I found this quote unbelievable

4.5 trillion does sound like a lot.

One source said there were 5.8 trillion cigarettes smoked globally in 2014.
There's no way most of those get littered.... right?

~~~
dragonwriter
> One source said there were 5.8 trillion cigarettes smoked globally in 2014.
> There's no way most of those get littered.... right?

Given my observation of people's smoking habits and the locations (or, mostly,
not) of public facilities for the disposal of cigarettes, I'd say it's quite
plausible that most got literates but only between 1/5 - 1/4 were smoked in a
place where there was convenient access for disposal by someone who cared to
use it.

------
glitcher
This may also train smokers who do throw away their butts to instead think
it's ok to throw them anywhere.

~~~
ceedan
Yeah... the callousness of smokers and their littering is unacceptable. I
understand that throwing your cigarette in the trash can be a fire hazard
sometimes, but put the cigarette out and throw it out. Some smokers just seem
to love flicking that still-burning cigarette into the road like it's no big
deal.

~~~
andymcsherry
Smoker in San Francisco here. I've thought about this quite a bit and here's
my dilemma.

1\. It is illegal to smoke indoors

2\. San Francisco has made it illegal to have ash trays outdoors

3\. Cigarettes set trash on fire so it's not acceptable to put them in the bin

4\. Cigarettes have a tax on every pack earmarked to fund street clean-up

I'd prefer to not throw my cigarettes on the ground, but I've been left with
no real alternative. Also, I've specifically paid a tax that should fund that
clean-up.

~~~
RandallBrown
Put them out and put them in the garbage, your pocket, or a plastic bag.

When people go out to a national park they don't just throw trash on the
ground because "I paid an entry fee that should fund the clean up."

~~~
andymcsherry
I think what I've mention already should outline the impracticality of your
suggestion. It's hard to distinguish between a cigarette that's fully
extinguished or not. This is why ashtrays are made of glass or contain sand,
you can't set it on fire. Smokers are easy to demonize when you don't
understand their dilemmas. Don't worry we're pretty used to it. Most smokers I
know understand their habit bothers people and do their best to not cause a
burden on others. When society has set up rules that make it impossible to do
something properly, don't be surprised when people don't.

~~~
BHSPitMonkey
So smush it properly with your shoe and then put it in your pocket until you
get home or find a worthy receptacle. If I have a granola bar wrapper in my
hand and there's no trash cans nearby, I don't throw it on the ground; I hold
it in my hand/pocket/bag until I can dispose of it. Cigarette filters are not
a special case in this thinking.

------
anfractuosity
Also [http://www.thecrowbox.com/](http://www.thecrowbox.com/) were they
apparently trained captive crows to pickup coins in return for food, there's
also a TED talk the guy behind it gave.

I've briefly looked at the 'Crowded Cities' page, I'm still not sure how the
crows realise they get food though for cigarette butts? Does it rely on them
randomly dropping something in the pot, and then getting food and continuing
to do it?

~~~
jldugger
Didn't it turn out that guy faked his results?

~~~
vanattab
I don't think I would go so far as to say he faked his data. But he did
intentional misrepresent his work to the press and during the TED talk to
boost his own status/ego.

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/corvidresearch.blog/2015/03/12/...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/corvidresearch.blog/2015/03/12/a-scientists-
thoughts-on-the-crow-box/amp/)

------
dTal
They're smart enough to find cigarette butts wherever they are, not just the
ground. I predict you'd see a lot of crows stealing lit cigarettes and
emptying ashtrays etc.

~~~
KGIII
Crows are really smart. If anyone is interested, here's a PBS Nature doc about
crows.

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hBJKPwIFzDI](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hBJKPwIFzDI)

They even transfer knowledge between each other and through generations.

------
IgorPartola
Or you know, we could get rid of cigarettes. Oh wait but what will happen to
all the crow jobs?!

~~~
synicalx
Didn't work so well for alcohol, drugs, or prostitution unfortunately.

But at least I guess it would stop people smoking in public.

~~~
gspetr
> Didn't work so well for alcohol, drugs, or prostitution unfortunately.

I'm pretty sure it will work out once the surveillance methods are more
advanced and ubiquitous. And no, I don't think it's a good thing.

~~~
synicalx
Good point, we've come a long way since prohibition times for better and for
worse.

------
bogomipz
I wonder if this will be the beginning of crow-sourcing.

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vortico
I think this idea is really cool, but monitization might be an issue. No
individual or private company, except those with enormous sites like Boeing
and Google would be potential customers, because the decrease of cigarette
butts would be spread over possibly a mile radius (interested to see what the
actual statistics would be though). Of course, the idea then is to target
municipalities of dense downtown areas. Is buying, maintaining, powering, and
repairing this machine worth the handful of cigarette butts that would
otherwise be washed into a drainage ditch or picked up by a street sweeper?

------
inuniverse
Cool and thought-provoking idea! I was struck by this statement however:

 _Right now we are building our first Crowbar. All different parts are working
and ready for assembly. Next step: testing with Crows._

Why not start with crow testing? That's the "Talk to customers" of this
project [0]. Instead, they started off with something we can be sure of with
today's technology: machine recognising cigarette butts.

[0] Technically talking to city authorities should be the first step, but I
couldn't tell whether this was a for-profit project.

------
nickpeterson
Couldn't we just force cigarette companies to make cigarettes biodegrade in
the rain? Seriously, they're basically all chemicals anyways. After a few
years the problem would vanish.

------
elihu
I wonder what other tasks we could train species to do in exchange for
something they want? For instance, cane toads are invasive and toxic enough
that predators usually leave them alone. Supposing that cane toads can be
deposited in a receptacle by some bird who wouldn't otherwise eat it without
being harmed by the toxin, could they be used to eradicate cane toads in
places where they're not wanted in exchange for food?

~~~
Eric_WVGG
A fellow trained his cat to "hunt" whiffle balls around the apartment so it
would have a chance to, well, act like a cat for its food. Sort of. It's neat,
anyway.

[http://benjaminmillam.com/cat-geek/monkey-the-cat-hunts-
for-...](http://benjaminmillam.com/cat-geek/monkey-the-cat-hunts-for-dinner/)

------
belzebub
I'm too lazy to build this myself but a similar system to encourage pet owners
to dispose of pet waste at the park by exchanging dog poop for a treat.

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notjustanymike
Now I'm picturing a murder of crows on their smoke break.

------
carapace
My evil plan was to make peanut-butter vending machines for raccoons.

I figured you'd have to trap a few and show them how it worked then release
them to spread the word, so to speak.

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smcameron
I seem to remember back in the 70s and early 80s, cigarette butts being
everywhere was a problem, then for awhile, they disappeared, like smokers got
trained not to throw them on the ground. But lately, they seem to be back,
like new smokers came up without remembering what it was like in the 70s and
80s, and they just throw them on the ground again.

------
korethr
I wounder if this would work for other corvids as well, like say, ravens or
magpies. As I understand, magpies are also rather intelligent. I can imagine
crows and magpies getting into fights over who gets to take the cigarette butt
to the food dispensing machine.

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azeirah
Have any of these stations been deployed so far? Interesting idea!

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ceedan
LOL I had this same exact idea once but with pigeons... I can't wait to show
my wife/stupid-idea-confidant this. I love it

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smegel
I take it this hasn't be proven or demonstrated yet?

------
hanselot
Breaking News: Murder of Crows Commit Murder. You won't believe why!

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md2be
Why aren't we ticketing / fining people who litter in this way? To all the
hippocrite smoking environmentalists, I say F U.

