
Am I Introverted, or Just Rude? - hvo
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/opinion/sunday/am-i-introverted-or-just-rude.html?ref=opinion
======
snovv_crash
I know for me, if I don't get the alone time I completely disengage from
anything social, even if I'm physically present. I don't mind being there, so
it isn't social anxiety, I just zone out.

I'm also not trying to be rude, it is more like some uncontrollable ADD that
makes my attention wander when I'm in social situations. But get a few early
nights and walks alone and I'm back to normal. When I'm rested I've been told
that I'm engaging and funny, but when I'm not people (well, at least
extroverts) think I'm being aloof and, as the author said, rude. But needing
to sleep or to use the restroom isn't considered rude, so I really feel that
my recharge time should be similar. Or maybe I just need a better way of
handling it.

Are there any introverts out there who have developed coping mechanisms for
dealing with people when you're already peopled out, and are willing to chime
in?

~~~
sumedh
> Are there any introverts out there who have developed coping mechanisms

Fake it. I realised couple of years back that there are times when I am not
really interested in the conversation but its rude to zone out so I pretend
and act as if I am interested.

~~~
bb101
I couldn't agree more. Force yourself to fake it. The conversation won't last
forever and you'll leave a good impression which will be a) a social benefit
for you in future meetings, and b) possibly helpful to the other person
(imagine if they are thinking "oh man, people usually find me so boring but
this person is really listening to me"...)

@smsm42 we might not be able to run like Usain Bolt, but we are able to force
ourselves to maintain concentration and pretend for a while.

~~~
snovv_crash
I'm not sure if you're introverted to the same degree, but NO, I cannot just
force myself to maintain concentration. Maybe for 30 seconds, then I'm back to
staring blankly across the room until someone says my name again.

This is not something I can control. I don't enjoy it and I'm not doing it on
purpose. I've used this analogy too many times on this story already, but it
is like I'm horribly sleep deprived and people want me to stay awake for
things that I'm utterly incapable of doing in my present state.

~~~
dismantlethesun
Faking it isn't about maintaining mental concentration. If someone is paying
attention to you, then it's probably going to be obvious that you're faking
it.

Thing is... most people either (a) don't know you well enough to say that
you're being flakey or (b) aren't paying that much attention... the free
flowing alcohol of adult-aged parties and meetings really helps with this
respect.

How do you fake it without putting in concentration? Pay attention to what
other people do in similar circumstances: platitudes, sounds of agreement,
sticking to unspectacular and unnovel topics like weather/books/sports. I know
personally, I don't even like certain sports, but after hearing 3-4
conversations about a particular team, I can regurgitate the mosaic of other
peoples opinions about the team.

------
CuriouslyC
"When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude to
the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense. The more
we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated our
society is likely to become"

What is the objective justification for calling skipping a gathering of
strangers rude? Who is to say that a society where people are more apart won't
turn out better, once people get over the antiquated notion that they MUST be
connected or they are somehow defective?

"There are many excuses for failing to conduct ourselves with courtesy, for
avoiding gatherings and conversations we don’t think we will enjoy, or for
just putting on our pajamas and staying home. Too many of them boil down to
just that one thing: We care more about ourselves than about the needs of
others.

That’s not about introversion. It’s just an ordinary version of selfishness."

Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social
interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate
if they give? Most of the introverts I've gotten to know are exceedingly kind
and loyal once they view you as a legitimate human being.

~~~
noobermin
>Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social
interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate
if they give?

I really don't think that is the case, introverts aren't "broken angels who
just need to be won over," they have completely different internal
motivations.

~~~
ethanbond
Besides... implying that extroverts don't have traumatic social experiences?
Statistically speaking, extroverts should have many times more such bad social
experiences simply because they have many more total social experiences.

If that's your argument, then it boils down to extroverts evidently being able
to "get over it" much better than introverts.

~~~
xabotage
In my case at least, I absolutely believe the ability to "get over" bad social
experiences can turn someone into an introvert or extrovert over their
lifetimes.

For example, no amount of conscious effort allows me to let go of bad social
encounters, so instead I have a treasure chest of repressed memories over
several years (my brain likes to pull one out at random late at night just to
torture me sometimes).

Further social interaction always puts me at risk of accumulating more bad
experiences that can't be let go, so as a result I have to work extra hard
whenever I talk to strangers or acquaintances to overcome the anxiety and
"perform well". Around close family where I can be myself, social interaction
is not exhausting and I feel like an extrovert.

In other words, perhaps inability to "get over it" leads to social anxiety
which leads to taxing social interactions which leads to introversion
(...which leads to _suffering_ ).

Doesn't necessarily explain introversion for all people, though.

~~~
dan00
> In my case at least, I absolutely believe the ability to "get over" bad
> social experiences can turn someone into an introvert or extrovert over
> their lifetimes.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. One shouldn't mix introversion, shyness
and social anxiety. It might be easier to develop social anxiety if your're an
introverted or shy person, but you can't overcome your introversion like you
can overcome your social anxiety, they're just completely different things.

~~~
noobermin
Right. I like anyone have my share of bad experiences, however, I am _not_ shy
at all, I am not afraid to talk to people, I just don't prefer it because it
taxes on my energy.

------
icanhackit
_Too many of them boil down to just that one thing: We care more about
ourselves than about the needs of others. That’s not about introversion. It’s
just an ordinary version of selfishness._

The whole article was trying desperately to shoehorn the quote above as the
ultimate truth, but it neglects important nuances and makes me wonder what the
author's agenda is. Is the inverse statement true, that extraverts care more
about others? That their behaviour is less selfish? Or could it be that both
extraverts and introverts can be both selfish and generous, depending
ultimately on the individual. That extroversion can be a tool to network with
others for no other reason than to gain social mind-share for personal profit,
as well as be used to build meaningful relationships depending on how it's
wielded and the intention of the user? Or that introversion can be an excuse
to snub ones peers as well as a tool to focus their efforts on what they find
important, including helping others, rather than spreading themselves thin on
many (often meaningless) endeavours?

The author's perspective betrays the unspoken expectations of their culture
(as does the name of the publisher). In North Western Europe it's not unusual
to keep to yourself and avoid small talk. My partner and I can go for hours
without talking to each other while sitting in the same room, often next to
each other. You don't have to discuss every idea or observation that pops into
your head. You can let an idea brew in your mind, digest it so that when you
do discuss it, you can start at a more sophisticated level rather than
babbling half formed thoughts and filling the verbal voids with "...like, you
know..."

This odd anxiety where if you're not doing or saying something, that you can't
just stare out the window and watch the world pass by - that the proper thing
to do is to pick up your phone, call a friend, and perform a post-mortem on
the little thoughts buzzing around in your head gives me the fucking shits.
Sit down quietly and form a cogent thought for one minute PLEASE. _Then_
you'll have something worth talking about.

~~~
DigitalJack
Ultimately everything that everyone does is out of satisfying their needs.
Whether you need to help other people recover from addiction, or you need a
bag of cheetos, both are about your own personal needs. Therefore we are all
continually acting out of selfishness.

Introversion and extroversion are a gross and simplified categorization of our
personal needs. One or the other may be more socially acceptable, but both are
selfish.

~~~
icanhackit
_[...] everything that everyone does is out of satisfying their needs [...] we
are all continually acting out of selfishness._

If you want to posit feeding the homeless at a soup kitchen as satisfying a
desire to feel helpful or fulfilling the wishes of a deity you wish to please
in order to secure your place in the afterlife which is ultimately selfish
then sure. Let's go one step further and admit we're in a deterministic
universe and we have no free will. That takes care of everything. It helps the
next beer go down knowing that, despite saying I wasn't going to drink today,
it was always going to happen and was determined nearly 14 billion years ago
:-)

~~~
DigitalJack
Non sequitur.

~~~
icanhackit
I actually agree with you, everything is driven by individual desire i.e.
selfishness - even helping others, but it's a bit of a grim way of looking at
things. The point I was making is that if we reduce everything to the simplest
underlying principal we miss what makes life interesting and we may as well
not even be having a discussion.

You could, quite correctly, classify my responses as selfish acts of showing
off to gain meaningless kudos in an online forum...or more charitably classify
them as thoughtful discourse between people interested in esoteric topics.

~~~
dan00
> I actually agree with you, everything is driven by individual desire i.e.
> selfishness - even helping others, but it's a bit of a grim way of looking
> at things.

Like you're saying, it's a grim way to look at things and it's even a quite
simplified view.

Sure, people sometimes help because of more selfish reasons, that they want to
be praised, but I'm pretty sure that pure empathy for people can also be a
quite big motivation to help.

------
eyelidlessness
> When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude to
> the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense.

I just can't follow this reasoning. People are not entitled to my casual time.
I am delighted that there are people in my life who wish I were present more,
and it's unfortunate for all concerned that I do not always feel inclined to
be. But it is not a wrong done, just an unfortunate circumstance.

~~~
colechristensen
There are two extremes - on one side is someone who feels declining any
invitation is rude; on the other side is someone who feels it is never rude to
decline an invitation. Both extremes and their neighborhoods are pretty far
from decent. If you're near one of those extremes, you're not entitled to
average folks respecting your actions.

Failing to recognize and live in the grey area somewhere in between (where
there is a lot of fair play for diversity which sums up to an individual's
personality) doesn't mark you as "introverted" like it's some disability and
therefore should be respected, it's simply inconsiderate and if you're unaware
of this, it's willful ignorance.

It's not against the law to be inconsiderate, nobody should force you to be
different. Just don't expect others to like you, and don't get bitter when
they don't.

In other words, when it comes to your "casual time" thinking you're entitled
to all of it without reproach is just as bad as someone else thinking they can
take any of it at a whim.

~~~
eyelidlessness
I'm pretty perplexed by your response. Both of your proposed extremes are
basically nonexistent.

Also, I am introverted. It really exists, and doesn't need scare quotes. I
don't think it's necessarily reasonable to frame it as a disability, but it
certainly conveys a different set of abilities than those of extroverts.

Also, I don't even understand why you scare quoted casual time. Do you not
distinguish time in which you have obligations to others from time in which
you don't?

~~~
colechristensen
The extremes are used to make a point. The pure expression probably doesn't
exist, but we should all be familiar with those that trend much too close. The
whole idea is moderation.

I use "scare quotes" in both circumstances to call into question or express
doubt about the legitimacy of the words in context; or in other words to
indicate that I'm trying to discuss the usage of the word or phrase instead of
it's understood meaning. (I quote "scare quotes" because I'm dubious as to the
appropriate usage of the phrase, frightening or insulting anyone with my
typography isn't the intent) And I have no idea what "casual time" is. There's
a lot of meaning to infer but a lot more meaning to be uncertain about. It's
not a phrase I do or would use, but I'm talking about somebody else's usage of
that and indicating that by literally quoting them.

The point I was trying to make is that it's wrong to conflate poor social
graces with introversion... or there's a strong difference between preferring
more time alone and selfishly insisting on your preferences. Extroverts can be
just as rude in their own ways.

More generally, there's a worrying trend these days to apply labels to
yourself or others to justify being a jerk. "It's ok because I'm/they're/it's
an X"

~~~
eyelidlessness
I appreciate you taking the time to respond thoughtfully, even though we
probably aren't going to meet in the middle.

Regarding scare quotes: your usage is exactly what is meant by the term. See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes).

Casual time is meant to be taken literally, it's not some special jargon, just
two words put together. I also clarified the meaning in my previous response.

I don't think anyone but the NYT article author is conflating poor social
graces with introversion. My response to that was to unapologetically insist
that it is not a matter of rudeness to find socialization burdensome, nor to
decline that burden when it is not necessary.

> More generally, there's a worrying trend these days to apply labels to
> yourself or others to justify being a jerk. "It's ok because
> I'm/they're/it's an X"

I cannot relate to this worry, it's not something I experience. But in case
it's not clear, that is in no way what I was saying. In this context, I would
say:

\- I am an introvert. That's a fact about me, can't change it, don't even want
to most of the time.

\- I don't think declining social events is being a jerk. Regardless of
whether one is an introvert or not, or whether one is motivated to decline by
said introversion.

~~~
colechristensen
I think "scare quotes" the phrase is by it's nature a pejorative and is often
used and/or interpreted as one; sometimes absolutely appropriately. The
definition matches close enough, using it can be something like an ad hominem
attack. I'm trying to use the typographical tools I have to express ideas, not
to take cheap shots at terms I don't like.

\--- > I don't think declining social events is being a jerk. Regardless of
whether one is an introvert or not, or whether one is motivated to decline by
said introversion.

I think frequent refusal to face discomfort for the benefit of others is rude.
You have to strike a balance in your life, but there are a lot of ways to
strike that balance which are profoundly selfish.

I don't know you, but I've known too many people that went out looking for
labels for themselves and when they found them identified with them and let
them define who they were. Taking tenancies of a thing and having them
reinforced and piled on until a personality trait gets turned into a a
problem. I think teaching people that there's this introvert/extrovert
dichotomy should be considered harmful because it misses the complexity of
people and pushes folks towards extremes instead of enlightening them about
themselves.

~~~
snovv_crash
It isn't about facing discomfort. Imagine it was the social norm to go for 36h
between sleeps, but for _some_ reason you struggle to stay awake after the
first 20h. People tell you to knuckle down and stop being rude, just stay
awake like a normal person. You've now been awake for 30h, because your work
expects it of you. But after work your friends want to go play soccer. Would
it be rude to turn them down? Or would it be more rude to fall asleep while
you are playing, or snap at them while you are playing due to the discomfort
of pushing yourself well beyond what you are capable of?

This is what being introverted is like, without a sort of social-sleep away
from people it is impossible to keep the social part of your brain active in
people's presence. You are constantly trying to walk a fine line between
offending people by not showing up (which allows you to recharge) and
offending people by being socially disfunctional in their presence (which just
leaves you more depleted). I don't know if perhaps the introvert phenomenon is
maybe something on the very mild end of the autism spectrum, but I do know
that, at least without years of experience in dealing with an introvert they
care about, extroverts cannot comprehend it without pathologising it in some
way.

------
brhsiao
Am I on the spectrum, or does this...

 _> At first, saying “no” to fund-raisers and coffees brought with it a keen,
almost illicit pleasure. What freedom! I started slipping out of meetings and
school assemblies at the first possible moment instead of staying to chat. On
one delicious occasion, I sat in my car and read a book while my children
attended a family-oriented athletic function._

seem like perfectly reasonable behavior? I couldn't care less if someone I
knew did this. I had no idea saying no to coffee was rude.

Presumably, if you break one of these rules, e.g. by saying no to some big
gathering, you'll be offending someone. This would seem to suggest that there
are people out there industriously keeping track of who fails to show up to
gatherings and holding it against them. Really? Here, at the end of a century
that saw the perfection of human flight, two world wars, and ongoing efforts
to make us a multiplanetary species?

If not dragging myself out to spend several hours making small talk is rude,
can I just be rude?

~~~
morgante
I don't think it's necessarily about whether you're rude or not.

It's more that relationships require investment. If you never show up to
events or coffee with me, don't expect me to be your friend in the future.
Similarly, don't expect a deep relationship with your children if instead of
interacting with them (or cheering them on) you are always alone or distant.

A single instance isn't rude, but the _pattern_ definitely leads to
(justifiable) social isolation.

~~~
brhsiao
I entirely agree. But the article outright claims it's rude to decide not to
go to large social gatherings full of strangers. (I concede your point on
coffee.)

~~~
marmot777
_" When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude
to the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense. The
more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated
our society is likely to become. Those casual interactions in dog runs and at
kids’ hockey games are the ones that are most likely to cross social and
economic barriers. They expand my little world as well as the overlapping
bubbles that create a society."_

I went back to the article and found the problem, right here, where she ties
together being uncivil in the inevitable human interactions of our day (e.g.,
bringing your bad energy into the dog park) with how you choose to build
community beyond that, implicitly comparing her choices with yours. That's the
default tone of the self-congratulatory prig.

Yes, it is good to stretch your comfort zone to meet new people and help build
community without choosing situations that would make you miserable.
Strangers? Ipso facto good? Rubbish. She may have scared more people off
getting out than she inspired as some misguided soul is right now looking at
Meetups, choosing "random after dark random networking with drinks" over the
LUG. Sure, join the political group or the book club if it inspires you.

 _" Years ago, I was habitually late. “I can’t help it!” I declared to an
expert in time management (I’d turned my effort to reform into a magazine
article, as writers do, which gave me the excuse to seek professional help)."_

And by the way, showing up late is garden variety selfish behavior that
directly harms at least one other actual human being. The author managed to
slip in a less insidious self congratulations here, too, a lot of work for one
sentence.

------
justinator
> “Sorry I’m late,” the T-shirt reads. “I didn’t want to be here.”

 _I_ don't want to seem rude, but what usually gets me with such cutesy
sayings is that it's wholly trite and unoriginal, and why would you want that
on a t-shirt you wear?

[https://www.google.com/search?q=Sorry+I%E2%80%99m+late+I+did...](https://www.google.com/search?q=Sorry+I%E2%80%99m+late+I+didn%E2%80%99t+want+to+be+here).

If someone were to show me one of these shirts, and be like, "hey, that's
you!", I would kinda feel like... you don't really know who I am. You're just
trying to explain something as complex as an introvert's inside life and not
doing so well.

So, maybe I do feel for the author of the piece.

I feel also that (as an introvert), it's not that I don't want to hang out
with my wonderful friends, it's just that there's something I want to do much,
much, more, that just happens to be something I do alone. Tonight, my friends
want to go dancing, and I love dancing (and I love my friends), but the
weather is nice tomorrow, and riding a bike longer than anyone I know would
want to is completely irresistible to me. My hobbies have become so extreme as
I'm the only one that now participates in them. Anyone can go drinking and
dancing. It's inclusive like that.

~~~
morgante
> If someone were to show me one of these shirts, and be like, "hey, that's
> you!", I would kinda feel like... you don't really know who I am

Amen to that. I can't actually imagine wearing such a shirt myself, nor can I
imagine most other introverts doing so.

Such shirts seem to be entirely designed for extroverts who want to seem edgy
and thereby draw attention to themselves.

~~~
tamana
Or introverts who want to be edgy and scare people away.

------
cubano
I am currently writing this sitting in a small motel room very close to
downtown vegas and am very alone.

I am back on heroin. I write this not for shock factor because, frankly, I
don't give a shit about how anyone feels about it.

I write this as a warning to those wise enough to hear, about how being
introverted can easily lead to a lonely, fairly miserable life as you grow
older.

My excuse was always the same as I hear here...I'm not interested in shallow
conversation or discussing things with people whom seem to have almost
complete misunderstandings of the basics of things etc etc.

I am 51yo, my birthday was last week..2 people texted me happy birthday and I
spent the day alone, as none of my local junkie friends bothered to invite me
to do anything. Yeah, big surprise I know can you believe it?

I spent almost 35 years of my life, starting at age 15, playing in bands and
was always surrounded by fellow musicians and all the various bar archetypes.

Coding came super easy to me and it allowed me to earn very good money while
living a lifestyle that had all the trappings of a happy, extroverted kinda
life, and I enjoyed it immensely. I felt (and still do) incredibly blessed by
the genetic gods to be born at such a time where society valued my native
aptitude...I am sure there were periods where it wouldn't have been such a
blessing.

Looking back, I see how I was drawn to and used drugs and music as tools to
overcome my introvertness, and you know what? They worked very well. But, as
they say, what happens when the song ends and the dope runs out?

But this is my dilemma and where it gets nutso...I wonder just how much we
truly control the decisions our brain and subconscious make for us. Looking
back, I have serious doubts that _even if someone had shown me of picture of
my bleak life right now, that I would have somehow been able to make different
decisions_.

Even now, knowing how I should act to prevent this level of isolation, I am
unable to do those things consistently enough to make them work and have all
but giving up trying.

So yeah..introverted, rude, selfish, disconnected for sure. But also,
passionate, informed, and sensitive as well.

That's life I guess.

~~~
late2part
I'll be in Vegas Monday. Let me know if you want to meet up for Thai food? I
realize it's not a likely desire of an introvert, but it might be good to get
out and have a chat with someone semiobjective.

~~~
cubano
Just so you don't think I'm a total flake...I tried 3 different "temp email"
services and while i got them working, it seemed difficult to be able to log
back into them once you create them and one of them only lasted for a few
hours or something...so if I missed your reply (if you did reply) its not me
being rude or an ass, its just that those email things didn't work quite as i
expected them to work...

LOL..i have to chuckle somewhat at the typical experience that this sort of
thing is for my life and the irony of it :) Thanks for the offer anyway...it
just doesn't seem like its meant to be or whatever and i of course do not want
to give out any identifying information.

~~~
late2part
No worries on missing me. I'll be back that way soon if you want to catch up.
Alot of those new smaller email services can be flakey and hard to use so I
certainly understand.

------
11thEarlOfMar
Every social interaction is a kind of investment. At work it's to advance your
career or just remain employed. And there are few professions where you really
don't have to communicate with anyone at all and can still make a living. Even
introverts need to gain enough skill (chutzpah?) to communicate with their
colleagues.

Socially, it's another matter entirely. There are obligatory communications
that you really can't reasonably dodge, like planning family Holidays, or
finding a friend to join you to a concert, or calling around to get a decent
price on a set of tires.

Then there are the real small-talk situations. Standing in line at the coffee
shop, sitting with another parent you've never met waiting for your turn at
the parent teach conference, the bored bartender while you're trying to relax
the last evening of a business trip... These opportunities have different
payoffs that really depend only to you. If you're an extrovert, a conversation
with a stranger may be invigorating. And yes, you might learn something
valuable, or offer some advice that genuinely helps a stranger. For me, there
is simply no payoff. The investment of awkwardness versus the comfort of
remaining withdrawn is just not worth it. Once in a while, I might be in a
particularly good mood and actually strike up a conversation. But that is a
rare moment for me, and I usually end the conversation thinking that the last
thing I said for sure came across as weird and they had no clue what I
meant... So usually, I want to remain in thought, or distracted by some type
of entertainment or doing something that I deem to be productive. Thank God
for my iPhone.

I'll satisfy my obligations to society in other ways.

~~~
dkokelley
How do you reconcile _" Every social interaction is a kind of investment"_
with _" I might be in a particularly good mood and actually strike up a
conversation"_?

Does being in a good mood mean that you will get more upside to the
"investment" of small talk? Are you being optimistic that the conversation
will be productive (i.e. "maybe I'll learn something interesting or make an
important connection"), or does the act of engaging in small talk yield its
own reward, dependent on being in the right mood?

~~~
vinceguidry
> How do you reconcile "Every social interaction is a kind of investment" with
> "I might be in a particularly good mood and actually strike up a
> conversation"?

The price to buy in is less when you're in a good mood.

~~~
marmot777
Absolutely true. I tend to attract good energy when I put out good energy. The
inverse, too. It's palpable. If I walked around always in the space of my
lowest band, I'd see the world and people as pretty bad.

------
TillE
"The more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and
segregated our society is likely to become."

So this is the only sentence approaching a real argument in the article. And
it's not entirely unreasonable, but the author goes straight to words like
"antisocial", "rude", "self-indulgent", and "selfish" to describe the act of
skipping large gatherings.

I'm just not entirely convinced that introverts are likely to cause the
downfall of civilization. Even in the pathological cases of truly isolated
individuals, they're really only harming themselves.

------
vinceguidry
I go to a bar. Several times a week. Most of the time, it's not very fun.
Occasionally, I'll hit upon the right combination of mood and inebriation and
I'll have a great time. I'm loud, witty, entertaining. Occasionally I'll run
into somebody who can entertain the kind of deep, one-on-one conversations I
need to have.

But when I'm not doing either of those things, which is most of the time I'm
there, I'm drinking, by myself, at the bar, while everybody else there, most
of whom I've known for years, has the kind of group interaction that I simply
can't be bothered to participate in.

I have _introverted_ friends that have no problem participating in the group!
But I simply can't. It's not that I haven't tried. It's that, even after 6
years of going to that bar, and being friendly with all, some more than
others, I'm still not comfortable with group interaction. My mind wanders, I
end up pulling away slightly. After a minute it just seems easier to go back
to my spot at the bar.

If the conversation is actually interesting to me, then I can participate, at
least until it shifts to something I could care less about. I thought about
trying to care more, but if I start going against my nature, I get drained and
want to go home. If I do that too often I start to wonder why I even go there
at all. The way I do it, I'm _comfortable_. I can spend several hours there a
few times a week.

Introversion is real. I work to overcome my limitations, but it seems that any
success I find is a result of finding workarounds, not actually fixing the
problems, if there is indeed any.

My next big push against my introversion will be having small, private dinners
at my home with people I care the most for. Perhaps I can get over my group
aversion by amping up the comfort level an order of magnitude.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
> But I simply can't. It's not that I haven't tried. It's that, even after 6
> years of going to that bar, and being friendly with all, some more than
> others, I'm still not comfortable with group interaction. My mind wanders, I
> end up pulling away slightly. After a minute it just seems easier to go back
> to my spot at the bar.

Do you find that it matters how many people are in the conversation? For me,
once there are 4 or more other people to follow (assuming they're speaking
fluidly rather than slowly and deliberately), it seems like my brainpower is
completely consumed just following the dynamics of the interaction, and I have
almost nothing left over to process my own thoughts on the topic of
conversation. I seriously have no idea how people do it.

------
WheelsAtLarge
This article hit a nerve with me. I'm an introvert. I know that now but for
years I wondered why I hated being around people and large gatherings. I
figured I was just strange and let myself not attend gatherings and be by
myself. I found it easier and more satisfying than having to deal with people.

Now, many years later, I understand that I did myself a disservice. I missed
many gatherings that I now wished I had attended. I'm sure I missed many
connections that I would have enjoyed.

I understand now it's ok to be an introvert but it's not ok to let it control
how you deal with people. Not necessarily because you're somehow being less
than cordial to people, believe me most people won't miss you, but because you
miss out on life's moments and that is your loss and no one else's. Life is
too short to miss them and most will not come by again.

~~~
marmot777
Yes, you're never missing out on life's moments. This is a moment. It's not
that bad.

But yeah you'll miss a lot of good good moments and opportunities to meet very
cool people because you weren't willing to experience discomfort, risk
rejection, and weather some boredom and irritation. Just showing up actually
is 80% of it. It's true if done consistently there are pretty much guaranteed
rewards. It just will suck some of the time and it's easy to then run.
Speaking for myself.

------
Tycho
I find the label "quiet" rather presumptuous. If I don't say anything it's
likely because I think the odds of an interesting conversation are
unfavourable. Nothing to do with shyness. Blame yourself for not being
interesting, don't blame me for being "quiet."

Also, I don't need to "recharge" by retreating to solitude, I just find lots
of partying, drinking type situations incredible banal and would rather do
something else. This is just like getting impatient with any other activity,
like watching the shopping channel.

Of course usually I don't say this to people. That would just be rude.

~~~
bobthechef
Who said anything about partying and drinking? The author is talking about
social gatherings of various sorts. Some social gatherings aren't about having
interesting conversation but cultivating or facilitating social contact for
some purpose. I don't like bullshit banter or stupid conversation, but your
emphasis on what you find interesting with no regard for other needs is
revealing and speaks to the author's point.

~~~
Tycho
> Who said anything about partying and drinking?

The author.

------
MiddleEndian
As an introvert with a fairly active social life, I disagree with the general
premise.

I took an "always say 'yes'" approach for awhile. I accepted pretty much every
invite I received. Eventually I found myself going out all the time, weekdays
and weekends. At least once a week I'd have to schedule two or three events in
a single day.

It was exhausting in two ways.

The obvious was that it's a pain to schedule so many things, and the nature of
social events means you'll meet more people which is a positive feedback loop
for more events.

The other was that my personal growth was being limited. I skipped
exercise/sports. I was unable to finish, or sometimes even work on, my
personal art/programming projects.

I realized it was a problem, and I no longer feel bad turning down event
invites. Whether I am overbooked on events or if I just want to build a clay
sculpture, I don't consider it to be selfish. Of course I still like to see my
friends, and I still meet new people, but it's definitely not the only part of
being a human.

------
thomaslee
So, uh, color me selfish. :) Perhaps this isn't a constructive comment, but I
just don't understand these articles that take a long, hard, meandering look
at human nature only to arrive at some absolute "truth" like the author's some
arbiter of what's right and wrong in the world. Whatever gets eyeballs, I
guess.

------
nostrademons
"In a contest between my manners and my preferences, am I allowing my
preferences to win?"

There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't mind the consequences
that follow.

~~~
borplk
The funny thing is if you get successful people praise you for sticking to
your preference.

It's like a fuck-you card.

People will blame the college kid for not dressing more professionally.

But suddenly if the college kid becomes Zuckerberg/Jobs people will praise
him.

"Oh he just always wears [that hoodie/jeans/tshirt/turtleneck]. He's cool and
simple and down-to-earth like that not like all these other stupid
materialistic people who buy expensive clothes."

------
hibikir
I find the article to be a gross oversimplification: It's very hard to put
oneself in other person's shoes. The same external behavior might be caused by
very different internal mechanism.

I have met people that are labeled as introverted that are just what he
describes: One on one conversations about their behavior, with people they
trust, show that they really dislike most people, and will never feel at ease
in any group. They are selfish people that don't care about others at all. But
there's more to it. For instance, my son avoids parties because he gets
sensory overloaded very quickly: He'll hide in a corner, covering his ears. Is
he selfish? I don't think so. We are doing our best to help him handle such
situations, but it'll probably be a struggle for him most of his life.

I also think of my own case: I am a bit of a recluse, but it has nothing to do
with not caring about people: I am just painfully aware of the terrible first
impression I give, regardless of what I try. It's been described as me seeming
a bit 'off' in some fashion, as my non-verbals apparently say terrible things
that have nothing to do with what I mean. At the same time, I get to see all
that rejection as it happens, making the whole thing exhausting. I do it when
I have to, but it's unfun, because it feels absolutely hopeless. It's far
easier for me to fix it in smaller gatherings, where I get enough time to
override that awful first impression.

On the other side of the coin, I know people that are love large gatherings
and social situations because they crave novelty. One example that I got to
know pretty well happens to be awesome at fleeting connections: She'll leave a
party and half the room thinks they got a great connection, which makes her be
seen as a wonderful person in many social circles. But what happens when you
look deeper? She is a novelty addict. Travels away from home a lot just to
feed this. Her marriage is in shambles, because, of course, she got tired of
her husband. Her daughters wonder why she is on the road so much. Friends last
her about a year, by the time they are either discarded, or they have run away
from the selfishness: People are like chewing gum for her.

Sp when it comes to selfishness, introversion and extroversion, it seems to me
that the situation is far more complicated than the article makes it seem, and
we should all do our best to take a while before we judge people, as first
impressions aren't necessarily correct.

~~~
lotharbot
> _" I have met people that are labeled as introverted ... my son avoids
> parties because he gets sensory overloaded very quickly"_

All through my childhood I was labeled as introverted. As an adult, having
gone through a lot of self-reflection and self-evaluation, I realize that I
have both strong introvert and strong extrovert tendencies -- with many of my
strong introvert tendencies being sensory rather than social. I think I'm
actually more of an extrovert socially, but I never got that label because of
the sensory stuff.

For example: I do fairly well in group settings, as long as they're focused
somehow. I like sporting events, but not clubs, because all the noise at the
sporting event is focused on the action on the field/court/ice but the noise
at the club is an unrelated tangled mess of conversations and music. Big
lecture halls in college, churches big and small, and actual concerts are all
fine. Things marketed as a "party" usually aren't. I like most people, and
have friends from a lot of different segments of society. I just don't like
being overwhelmed.

It seems silly to characterize me as "rude" or "selfish" because I would turn
down certain types of invitations.

~~~
borplk
"I like sporting events, but not clubs, because all the noise at the sporting
event is focused on the action on the field/court/ice but the noise at the
club is an unrelated tangled mess of conversations and music."

This was quite interesting thanks.

------
Coincoin
I learned a lesson watching "What not to wear." A fashion show about people
dressing so badly it would hinder their career.

The "contestant" reason was always that no matter what they would be wearing
people should judge them from "what's inside."

Well, though luck, people don't do that. They judge you by what you wear, how
you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it.

Sure you can continue pretending you have bad manner because you're introvert,
but don't expect the rest of the world to understand and adapt to your
peculiarity.

That's when I stopped blaming the rest of the world for how it worked,
improved my social skills and moved on with my life.

~~~
fma
I'll need to watch a bit of that show. I'm a senior developer and recently
promoted to team lead at a very large company.

In my opinion, moving up further is not about whether I know the latest
framework or how fast I churn out code..it's like you said...

"They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is
nothing you can do about it."

This means more frequent hair cuts, nicer fitting clothes, getting rid of the
canvas laptop bag from college.

Even if it doesn't matter, it makes me feel better and confident - which would
reflect in how I talk and interact.

------
marmot777
I can completely relate to the T-shirt mentioned in the first paragraph:
“Sorry I’m late,” the T-shirt reads. “I didn’t want to be here.”

The thing is that I end up really glad I went about 90% of the time. So I'm
not sure I qualify as an introvert or if I'm just a chicken shit extrovert.
Either way, it's a big struggle. I do enjoy alone time a lot, though.

~~~
Nav_Panel
I feel the same way. After considering it, I've decided I'm halfway between an
introvert and an extrovert (and also that I don't like telling people about
it).

Elaborating on halfway: when my "job" was "be social and go to class all day"
and my leisure time was "hang around suburbs with the same crew of friends," I
needed a lot of alone time to recharge and I'd be miserable going out.

Now that my job is "write code all day" and my leisure time is "read books and
work on music," I feel a heavy need to socialize, and I often enjoy going out.

Just like many things, it's a spectrum, and everyone falls somewhere.

~~~
marmot777
Yes, and I've worked at home for a number of years and have really gotten used
to it. It makes a person sort of adjust to stillness and, frankly, loneliness.

Yeah, the half way between idea works well. I think that the fear of
socializing is all front loaded. For at least a couple days before anything,
I'm anxious, and that usually dissipates once I arrive and get settled. The
settled part is grounding.

If I fail to ground successfully or if I flat out don't like being there, then
the anxiety can continue the entire time I'm there.

It's exhausting. I can see how someone having some experiences like that might
conclude that's how it is. Not necessarily is what I'd say. Get grounded.
Accept some fails.

Easy for me to say sitting on my couch blissfully aware that I have no plans
until tomorrow.

~~~
Nav_Panel
> _I think that the fear of socializing is all front loaded_

I agree, at least when I'm in a non-social lifestyle (when I'm living a social
"school" lifestyle then I get grumpy and look for ways to leave). I think
living in a big city (NYC) "helps", because you have a lot of options
available and because the loneliness can be so oppressive that it almost
forces you out into some sort of social setting.

Usually it helps me to have someone to go with. Then, (1) I can't bail because
they're also depending on me, and (2) it gives me a little safety net to fall
back on in case I'm having trouble socializing. That said, I've had great
experiences going out alone, but it can be tough to get the conversation
started (or tough to convince yourself to start a conversation) unless it's
explicitly a meet-and-greet kinda thing.

~~~
marmot777
LOL. I've setup a situation for tomorrow where I absolutely can't bail because
of how I set it up. I could have done it another way but chose to take on some
responsibility regarding an event. I can't bail without being a total asshole.
Otherwise, I high chance I would not go.

~~~
Nav_Panel
Yeah, probably important you go, then.

I personally bailed on my previously-determined weekend plans because I'm
still recovering from a cold, and 36 hours of techno would dramatically set
back my recovery.

I was hoping for social plans tomorrow and I received an invitation to the
beach, so I'm looking forward to that. Gotta get my friendship hours in while
it's the weekend, because other than a yet-unplanned date, I've got nothing
every day after work next week.

~~~
marmot777
I think that's a reasonable reason to bail on something like that. LOL. The
beach is good medicine.

------
unabst
This piece is actually about excuses more than anything else.

> “Have you ever missed a plane?” she asked. I had not. “Then you can help it.
> You just care more about yourself than about the needs of others.”

Typical. Feelings always come first, and we make excuses to justify our
otherwise unjustifiable actions of irresponsibility.

But we also confuse what the most responsible thing to do actually is. We
assume it is to be on time. But that's what other's expect of us. That's being
responsible in their eyes. Abiding by these expectations is done because we
fear rejection and accusation and failure. This is not being truly
responsible. This is being a coward.

The correct responsible response is to simply state you don't want to be
there, and not go. State your feelings, because that's who you are. And say so
in a polite and graceful manner. Or don't. Just be honest, and spend your time
better. That's being responsible.

The only thing excuses do is sustain your incompetence and cowardice. If you
need an excuse you always have one. There are millions of reasons why anything
is not your fault. But that isn't the issue.

The moment you reject excuses all together is the moment you lose the life
vest that has prevented you from swimming. You need to face the water, not
reason with it. You need to actually swim and decide to go somewhere, not
float around in a flotation device made of excuses and let yourself be bounced
around by circumstances.

------
wallflower
Just the title of this article is painting a broad picture. Why is it always a
binary choice to be introverted or extroverted? Or introverted or just rude?

One thing I have noticed in tech in the past 10 years is that there are more
and more people drawn into it who are more extroverted than introverted. This
may partially be explained by the increasing appeal of being a geek in today's
popular culture/zeitgeist. Being a geek decades ago was not cool. Now, it is
almost sort of accepted to be a geek, to the point where some people will try
to seem geekier than they really are. Honestly, I don't give a damn about
"Doctor Who".

For me, if you really want to "control the conversation" like another
commenter said, you don't have to do that. Just take the lead. It is not about
being an introvert or extrovert. Be someone who invites people out to do
something or asks people if they want to be introduced (and then introduces
them - yes, it is not so binary as this can't be an e-introduction v. personal
face-to-face introduction). Be more active, less passive.

As I've ranted before, introverts are not always introverts. As Susan Cain
talks about in her somewhat-too-popular book called "Introverts", the
brilliant Professor Lewin (before he was rightly discredited and tarnished by
his sexual harassment problems) proclaimed himself a performer and an
introvert. There is no black or white. Everyone has fifty shades of
extroversion and introversion in them.

Stop this divide and conquer. Just be yourself. If you don't feel like going
outside for three days, just do it. If you feel like social interaction is
binge liking your entire facebook feed, go for it.

If to you, you feel it is a net loss to go out to certain social outings, then
you have a choice. It can be a net loss, if you are stuck in your head the
entire time and thinking 'what do they think about me, what do they think
about me' the entire time like a skipping CD. It is all in your head. We all
make stories about the world to provide 'evidence' that the world is like X.
However, it seems to be, through talking with my extrovert friends, that they
don't even have that beat poetry selfish mantra in their head - they just talk
to people and find out what that other person is like. Talk to that cute girl
or cute guy or 'they'.

~~~
marmot777
You might appreciate this PSA for Nerds:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc)

------
lerax
Yes, after that reading I really confirmed (again) about I be introverted.
Because I just don't care about myself, so the other possibility would be a
contradiction if be True.

And yes... Sometimes the introversion of some people is just about a sick
selfishness behavior. Why thinking you feelings is better and superior to
others? Why criticism about the bad English of some ones instead try its
meaning? Know a language, like Mathematics or Greek is just about
opportunities, is not about be smart.

Actually, what you are trying really say each selfishly content whose are you
writing in the internet? Why are we trying so hard to just confirm our
existing hurting the others? Where is the fun about that? I just don't
understand it. :(

This really makes me sad. Thinking about why some people just don't thinks the
reason of your "random" feelings and the horrible reasons to hurt the
lifestyle of others to justify your own dementia.

------
idlewords
Real party atmosphere in this thread. We should all get together!

~~~
pinaceae
speed dating with this merry group of intellectuals must be a blast.

preferably to the temple.

~~~
Nav_Panel
It's kinda cool how different sites develop different dialects and tones. HN's
conversational tone is probably the least fun/humorous I've ever encountered
on a website, which is (obviously) good in some instances and bad in others.

What would it take to shift a website's tone? What factors, both
technical/website-related and people-related, determine how the tone comes
across? Food for thought.

~~~
bbcbasic
Downvoting behavior.

Read the heavily greyed comments and turn on showing dead comments. Sometimes
there is humour in there!

Karma-sensitive people will adjust their behaviour and stop being funny
though, amplifying the effect

~~~
douche
Fortunately, they are just Internet Points™, so it doesn't really matter if a
handful of people feel offended enough by levity to downvote an occasional
joking shitpost.

~~~
bbcbasic
Except if you are down-voted your opinion gets censored. First to those with
colour blindness, then eventually to everyone.

------
paulpauper
_In a probably inevitable extension of nerd culture, the Dale Carnegie image
of gregarious success was shattered by stories of powerful, successful people
sitting quietly in meetings and substituting controlled online interactions
for draining real world encounters._

This part stuck out . Outside of social situations, economically speaking it
seems like the introverts are in control of most of society. It is a good
trade-off between making a lot of money and being successful as measured by
prestige, vs. being extroverted and less successful? I think so.

------
tluyben2
(Could not RTFA: nytimes blocked here)

I (41/m) used to think I was introvert but now a think I have a bad case of
attention deficit syndrome: I always need to do multiple things or I zone out.
I am a steaming social animal: I go to parties, business meetings, friday
drinks but a few minutes in I need to get my phone and do work. I just cannot
help myself: when someone is talking to me I hear everything they say, I
respond and have intelligent discourse but during that I am also talking with
5 people on Wechat, thinking up fixes for sites/apps and adding notes in
Teamwork. Some people find it rude but when you know me you know it is not so.
It was very good for me to work in China for a bit: here everyone sits typing
in their phone while talking. And it is, even in meetings with very large
companies, normal to pick up your phone and look something up you are not sure
about. That is how it is supposed to be: go to a meeting with a bank in London
and you have to know every fact by heart because people will pause and look at
you when you pick up your phone... What madness is that: either I say I do not
know or am not sure and delay matters we are discussing to a follow up or I
pick my phone up and Google it?

------
flanbiscuit
It's interesting, people see me as very extroverted and I can be but what they
don't see is just how much I also like my alone time and the older I get the
more I can let myself be introverted and be fine with it. I think social media
gives me a fake sense of being connected to people and so staying home becomes
easier because I can still be "social".

------
soufron
I am fascinated as how people are sharing "strategies" here... like "how to
cope with people" or considering that social interactions are "transactions"
and "investment".

A little empathy anyone? Like being genuinely interested in the people around
you? Like having fun by listening to new stuff...

I see a lot of depressed people around there :(

~~~
cwbrandsma
I watch my son, who behaves a lot like I did/do. 1. His inner imagination and
dialog is often much richer than what most people have to offer. Sorry,
hearing people talk about the weather gets boring quickly. 2. that inner
imagination and dialog don't shut off just because people are around. You can
ignore it for a while, but it gets "noisy" after a while, like a caged animal
trying to get out. 3. Those quiet times alone are there to maintain sanity and
balance. Give the inner dialog time to work out its thought, process the new
information, figure out what you should have said instead of what you did.

My son and I are actually deeply empathetic actually, when people describe
injuries I feel it with them, feelings of loss hit me hard as well. But keep
all the noise in my head at bay while maintaining conversation for long
periods is tiring.

~~~
tamana
If you don't build relationships with people, beware that you might not have
anyone to know or care for you when you are in need. If you want to be part of
a supportive community, and the standard conversational forms of social
grooming don't work for you, take care to replace them with _something_ , like
writing letters or doing acts of kindness

------
jpeterman
I knew I had come across this idea before:

[http://www.theonion.com/article/seemingly-shy-woman-
really-j...](http://www.theonion.com/article/seemingly-shy-woman-really-just-
stuck-up-friends-s-3399)

~~~
marmot777
The deeper meaning here is don't make assumptions on people's motives.

------
aashishkoirala
I for one would love to have that T-shirt mentioned in the beginning of the
article.

------
dodyg
I am an introvert but I am aware of the importance of building friendships.

So I took up on cooking and invite people to dinners at my house (the largest
was 45 people). People are more relaxed in a home cooked dinner and they tend
to like you.

------
peter303
I have had several people accuse me of being Aspergers because I am not the
back-slapping, party animal type. Lets leave the medical issue for those who
have difficulty functioning in society and not for us introverts.

------
icedchai
I get pretty frustrated if I don't have enough alone time. It's driven me away
from almost every relationship I've had. That statement doesn't bother me as
much as it should.

------
vitro
There is too much "I", that may be the problem.

------
chadcmulligan
some people like being with random people more or less than others. Some like
being with people they know and don't like meeting new people as much. If it
affects your life then probably time to learn some new skills, if not then
probably just leave things alone. This idea that there is some exactly right
amount of number of people everyone should like hanging around is...strange.

------
GarrisonPrime
People overestimate themselves. Maybe I'm not introverted, nor rude. Maybe
you're just boring, annoying, or rude yourself.

------
tamana
Warning: If you read this title aloud to your spouse, you might get an answer.

------
atemerev
Missed a plane. Four times. Two of them in the row. ADD sucks.

------
Qantourisc
It's rude to expect people to act a certain way as well.

------
mukeshsoni
Alternate title for another post -

Am I rude, or just introvert?

------
mhurron
Can't I be both? I am an introvert (personality type) but I am frequently rude
to people I do not give much of a shit about (choice).

~~~
zzalpha
Of course it can be both.

The question the author is asking, given the above, is: where is the line
between introversion and just being selfish? And does she cross it and then
justify her selfishness as introversion?

~~~
lerax
Exactly. Good catch.

------
smcameron
Why not both?

~~~
cJ0th
Because actually people are neither. I am getting tired of people putting
themselves or others into a certain box because this causes a lot of trouble
in forms of limiting beliefs.

Categorizing people is like trying to square the circle. You're bound to get
it wrong and if you truly belief you've succeeded then you are under a
delusion.

Personality traits are nothing but abstractions. Abstractions generally can be
useful. For instance, when it comes to programming or engineering. But for
stuff like personality traits they are not healthy imho.

I am not big into Christianity but I like how it says in the bible that a.)
god made us in his image and b.) you shouldn't have an image of god. Maybe,
whoever wrote this, was onto something.

------
Kenji
Your time is valuable. Never spend it with people who bring less value into
your life than you would have got if you spent this time alone. Never ever
(exception: if you are responsible for someone, like a child or elderly
person). It's that simple. The hard part is estimating how much value
somone/going out brings into your life.

Either way, you can call that rude and selfish, I call it a wise way to spend
my limited resources.

~~~
bobbytherobot
> exception: if you are responsible for someone, like a child or elderly
> person

So what about when she says: "I sat in my car and read a book while my
children attended a family-oriented athletic function"?

I think from that single line that she was actually being rude.

------
javajosh
I suggest you quit drugs and marry a nice girl. Maybe get into NA or something
for the drugs.

~~~
CamperBob2
Isn't NA basically a Scientology front?

That said, it's interesting to note that for most of recorded history, the #1
recommendation to someone in cubano's position would be to join the locally-
favored religion. Without that option -- as objectively bogus as it is -- the
chances of getting his/her life back on track may be lower than they
historically have been.

~~~
DigitalJack
"Isn't NA basically a Scientology front?"

What? I haven't heard that one before.

~~~
nyolfen
Narconon[1] is a Scientology front. Not to be confused with Narcotics
Anonymous

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcanon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcanon)

