
Sony debuts the new Alpha 9 mirrorless camera with 20fps continuous shooting - artsandsci
https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/19/sony-debuts-the-new-alpha-9-mirrorless-camera-with-20fps-continuous-shooting/
======
neom
About 10 years ago when this high fps stuff started to become better and
better in dslrs, all the sports shooters had a freak out because they got
worried that their license fees would go up because events would charge them
for the motion picture license not the still license. I don’t know if this
ended up becoming true but it was all the talk at WEVA for years. Sony have
always made great cameras, unfortunately their primes don't hold a candle to
Canon or Nikon. Anyone who reaaalllly cares about this feature is probably
shooting fixed (tho I've been out of the industry a long time I'm sure it's
changed)

~~~
vr46
I thought Carl Zeiss made their lenses? Not checked, but I have sworn by Zeiss
for twenty years in their various mounts and incarnations.

~~~
neom
iirc, Sony does it's own manufacturing but works with Zeiss on most of it's
lenses. In my personal opinion, and really I think it's pretty wanky to debate
this stuff too much, but personally I like the fluorite UD glass from Canon,
imo, has the best colour clarity and definition.

~~~
petre
Canon glass is fine if you're a professional, Zeiss and Leica is superlative
but it still depends on focal lengths. I still have my Contax mount 50/1.4,
because nothing save for some Leica lenses exhibit the same qualities on 35mm
format. If I were a sports photographer I'd probably go with Canon though.

------
vvanders
Impressive camera for sure but something missing in a couple articles I've
seen on this is glossing over the fact that Nikon/Canon have a _huge_ library
of lenses.

With photography it's largely the lens that drives the photo(which makes sense
when you think of photographing in terms of painting with light). Until you
see Sony breaking out the 300mm F2.8, 400mm F2.8, 600mm F4 and others you
won't see much pick-up on the segment they're targeting(1DX, etc). For
instance a 400mm F2.8 goes for 2x the cost of this camera alone(~$10k).

There's adapters for EF->Sony, however they're hit and miss on functionality
and focusing speed.

~~~
wklauss
OTOH, being a mirrorless system you can use an adapter for pretty much any
lens ever made, not only Canon but any possible glass that has been used in
the modern history of photography. And some times without any significant loss
of functionality.

But yeah, its true. Professionals take to stick to brands for a lot of
reasons. Investment already made in lenses, repairability, how easy is to find
a colleague during a job that can loan you some missing equipment, etc...

Sony is not going to conquer the professional market overnight, granted, but
it's important to have this camera in their catalog to start moving things in
that direction.

~~~
vvanders
Yeah there's adapters but they're pretty spotty and pricey. I actually looked
pretty deep into converting to Sony from Canon a while back but keeping my
lenses(I can't give up Canon's 35mm F1.4 and 135mm F2.0, they're not an
equivalent in Sony's system). However auto-focus didn't work or was really
slow on quite a few lenses so I ended up going with a 6D instead.

------
mabbo
Not being a camera guy, can someone explain to me why all these stats are
awesome? I mean, they sound awesome, but I'm a sucker for people telling me
things are awesome.

~~~
ckurose
What this article totally misses is that this is Sony's flagship offering not
for all professional photographers, but specifically for professional SPORTS
photographers.

Sports photographers need super fast continuous shooting so you can get 20
shots of that epic catch in one shutter press and choose the best one.
Likewise 1/32,000th of a sec shutter speed is twice as fast as most cameras'
1/8,000th of a sec fastest shutter speed, which helps to freeze quick motion.

The high number of AF points is a sports feature too - one area that
mirrorless still significantly lags traditional DSLRs is that their AF systems
are not as fast as the type used in DSLRs, which have dedicated AF sensors
(mirrorless does AF off the imaging sensor), so a ton of AF points is one way
mirrorless tries to narrow the AF gap.

~~~
Symbiote
Might it also be useful for wildlife?

~~~
azhenley
Yep, wildlife too. Sports and wildlife have been the weak points of Sony kits
due to AF speed and lack of long native lenses (they announced 100-400mm lens
today too).

------
cs702
DSLRs with mirror mechanisms are now officially a technological dead-end.

This new camera does things that are not possible with DSLR bodies, including
SILENT 20FPS shooting, WITHOUT BLACKOUT, WITHOUT DISTORTION FROM ROLLING
SHUTTER, and with SHUTTER SPEED UP TO 1/32000 -- very impressive. Sports and
other pro photographers that need high-end performance will take notice.

Mirrorless cameras are now clearly the future of pro photography. Canon and
Nikon should be very worried.

EDIT: Here's a good first look explaining the importance of all new features:
[http://briansmith.com/sony-a9-camera-fe-100-400mm-gm-lens-
re...](http://briansmith.com/sony-a9-camera-fe-100-400mm-gm-lens-review/)

~~~
foldr
>This new camera does things that are not possible with DSLR bodies, including
SILENT 20FPS shooting, WITHOUT BLACKOUT, WITHOUT DISTORTION FROM ROLLING
SHUTTER, and with SHUTTER SPEED UP TO 1/32000 -- very impressive

It's impressive, but it's irrelevant to 99% of photography.

I'd personally rather have an optical viewfinder than all of those features,
impressive as they are.

~~~
wklauss
Unless you, personally, account for the other 99% of the photography market I
wouldn't hand wave this camera that fast.

It's a very specialized piece of equipment for a very specific user, sure, but
Sony has other bodies suited for different jobs. What the A9 shows is that
there are advantages unattainable to mirror systems. As technology matures and
cost of entry lowers, the more limited and cumbersome mirror systems will be
cast away.

Optical viewfinder, albeit nice, won't sustain the whole market for DSLR. The
advantage of no having vibration or rolling shutter or silent operation, will
eventually drive people to mirrorless systems.

~~~
foldr
I was commenting on the suggestion that DSLRs are now obsolete. For sure this
is a highly capable camera and there are some advantages to going mirrorless.

>The advantage of no having vibration or rolling shutter or silent operation,
will eventually drive people to mirrorless systems.

Vibration is a red herring. Mirror damping for small format DSLRs has been a
solved problem for decades. In any case, all of these advantages can be
obtained with a DSLR too when it's in mirror lock-up mode.

------
rb808
Nikon and Canon dominate the pro space for more than just the tech specs of
their products. The support is amazing - check out this blog article to see. I
thought B&H was close to photographers heaven but I've never seen anything
like this.

[http://blog.jeffcable.com/2016/08/a-very-rare-look-inside-
ca...](http://blog.jeffcable.com/2016/08/a-very-rare-look-inside-canons.html)

Producing the camera that has the best specs doesn't necessarily mean that
pros will be using it. (Depends on the size of the gap of course)

------
zokier
While 20fps makes nice headline, it is imho the least interesting spec of this
camera. Some things I find interesting:

* Low light performance and dynamic range. Sony bodies have traditionally been good at this (see for example [https://vimeo.com/99893160](https://vimeo.com/99893160)), I hope the trend continues.

* Video features. They say 4k full frame video, which sounds nice, but subsampling the sensor inherently comes with some compromises, which might be even exaggerated in 1080p mode.

* There is more to video than just resolution; does it have any high-framerate modes, what sort of video formats and color profiles does it support etc etc.

* The 5 stop equivalent image stabilization sounds impressive. Admittedly I haven't followed the state of art that closely, but I imagined IS being typically closer to 2-3 stop eqv.

* 1/32k shutter speed seems also quite fast. I wonder what sort of new photos such fast shutter speeds enable.

* Wasn't it Sony that "innovated" a lossy compressed RAW format? What sort of impact does that have on this camera?

... and probably some more.

~~~
Veratyr
> They say 4k full frame video, which sounds nice, but subsampling the sensor
> inherently comes with some compromises, which might be even exaggerated in
> 1080p mode.

They don't necessarily have to subsample, they may be able to supersample. I
_believe_ Panasonic's GH5 does this.

> does it have any high-framerate modes, what sort of video formats and color
> profiles does it support etc etc.

Full specs, including shooting modes, are here:
[https://www.sony.com/electronics/interchangeable-lens-
camera...](https://www.sony.com/electronics/interchangeable-lens-
cameras/ilce-9/specifications)

In terms of high-framerate, it doesn't have anything for 4K but goes up to
120fps in 1080p. Can't see anything about chroma subsampling or bit-depth
other than it only outputting 8-bit 4:2:2 through HDMI.

> Wasn't it Sony that "innovated" a lossy compressed RAW format? What sort of
> impact does that have on this camera?

Yep, though it appears that like the A7RII, you'll be able to disable it. It
seems that doing so will roughly halve the number of frames you can take in a
single burst and drop the max capture framerate to 12.

------
Veratyr
Sony's product page (has full specs):
[https://www.sony.com/electronics/interchangeable-lens-
camera...](https://www.sony.com/electronics/interchangeable-lens-
cameras/ilce-9)

------
frandroid
> an Ethernet port

!!!

~~~
mattpavelle
Yeah, there can be a lot of bandwidth required. RAW images at 24.2MP are
around 30-40MB
([https://toolstud.io/photo/megapixel.php?width=6016&height=40...](https://toolstud.io/photo/megapixel.php?width=6016&height=4016))
and at 20FPS you're above 1Gbps (which a crowded wireless network certainly
can't handle).

Add those bandwidth requirements to some of the real-time workflows
professionals engage in today (see [http://www.imaging-
resource.com/PRODS/sony-a9/sony-a9A.HTM](http://www.imaging-
resource.com/PRODS/sony-a9/sony-a9A.HTM) and the comments around 11:53) such
as:

"first Sony camera with an ethernet port. Have to be _real_ time. Shows,
presidential debates, every shot I took went right out onto the network as
soon as I shot it."

and

"for major UFC events, it’s vital to be able to do a live workflow, where
images are constantly going back to an edit station and go out to the world
immediately. Not only the ethernet, but the wireless is key for social media
outfits all over the world."

and ethernet makes sense.

~~~
keymone
usb 3 is 5Gbps, thunderbolt is 10Gbps, thunderbolt 3 is 40Gbps. i don't think
it makes sense to put ethernet ports on anything smaller than a rack blade.

~~~
djrogers
If you're suggesting they went with a USB or TB ethernet adapter instead,
think about the complexity of supporting the numerous available NIC chipsets
on something like a camera...

~~~
monort
There is a Linux inside Sony Alpha. No problem with drivers :)

------
pinum
If we imagine for a moment that it were 24 or 30fps continuous- could that
output be used for video as an alternative to the designated video modes? What
would make the results different?

~~~
beschizza
Each frame would be 6000x4000 pixels -- 6K with a 3x2 aspect ratio.

20 fps is almost there (playing at 24fps is a 12% speedup), but how long can
you practically record at that speed?

~~~
mikeyouse
The image buffer is 241 pictures so it'd be about 12 seconds of recording at
20FPS.

------
bitL
If they finally made auto-focus acceptable, I am willing to dump D750 as my
main hyperlapse-creation tool and buy Alpha 9 for travel. Mirrorless always
had issues with focus, if the improved quantum efficiency of the sensor allows
better focus, they have a winner.

------
pklausler
Has Sony fixed their ARW raw file compression story yet? Last I checked, you
had a choice between a huge uncompressed raw and a lossy compression technique
susceptible to posterization artifacts on high-contrast vertical edges.

------
appleflaxen
I will never forgive Sony for the rootkit they installed on my computer.

~~~
anigbrowl
That was _12 years ago_. The only reason to mention it now is to signal your
nerd power level; if you actually care about this you're being absurdly petty.

Just for context, Pacific Gas and Electric (the primary power utility firm in
northern California) _killed_ 8 people and destroyed an entire neighborhood a
few years back due to their failure to repair a gas pipeline that they knew to
be defective.

An unwelcome root kit on your computer is a Bad Thing that it's reasonable to
complain about at the time it happens, but as injustices go it's pretty minor.
If you're still holding a grudge about it over a decade later then you've been
enjoying a very sheltered life.

------
gseymour2
One complaint I read about Sony mirrorless is a greater tendency to have dust
problems due to lack of a mirror. Anyone familiar with that issue and know if
it is a real problem?

~~~
dragonwriter
Lack of a mirror shouldn't affect that; the fact that it is shutterless (which
doesn't require being mirrorless; there have been shutterless DSLRs) might.

------
magic5227
Where does the A7r II / A7S fit in with this? Are they considered a prosumer
version of this camera? And if so, what makes this more professional, the FPS?

~~~
imjk
Not an exact parallel but I see the A7R as the MD Mark III and the a9 as the
1DX.

~~~
magic5227
That's interesting considering so many professionals use the Mark III. I
recall seeing an article that the NYTimes staff all used Mark II's at one
point.

------
PuffinBlue
Wow. That's an impressive spec list for a body this size.

I don't see anything about how weather sealed it is and the press release
doesn't mention it either.

~~~
Veratyr
I think the press event is still in progress, we'll be finding out more as the
day goes on.

------
jumpkickhit
I'm excited for the A9"S" I guess, the super low-light version of this.

Can't afford either one though, but I can dream.

------
dluan
So what exactly does Sony have to do to become king of cameras? This is a very
good argument.

~~~
old-gregg
Well, Sony has been the "co-king" of consumer P&S cameras for a long time, but
those are in steep decline due to ever increasing capabilities of smart
phones, where Sony (unlike Canon or Nikon) continues to make money with their
Xperia line.

On the high end, they lack one key "ingredient" in my opinion which can be
best described by one word: ecosystem. Ask any serious Nikon user and they'll
show you a $15K collection of lenses, flashes and even old film bodies with
high sentimental value to them. They will also talk for hours about "Nikon
approach to color" if you'll listen. Competing against this takes time: Sony
needs more lenses, more famous photographers walk around sporting their gear,
consistently communicated "vision", etc.

This can also be a tough cultural problem to overcome. I've been shooting
Canon on and off most of my life, Nikon gear is very similar in that it feels
like a computerized camera system, i.e. a computer is an add-on to an
excellent camera helping you take better pictures. Fuji cameras have the same
feel. But every time I try Sony it feels like mm... hard to explain, maybe
like a "computer which happens to take photos"? Very subjective, of course,
but since you asked. ;)

~~~
dluan
I've tried the fujifilm mirrorless cameras, and they've also had that feeling
of portable camera with a computer attached. I've personally always loved the
feeling of a computer engine driving the sony camera (a7 evf is wonderful).

If mirrorless is the future, and partially what allowed Sony to make 1/32000
possible, then does that mean Canon/Nikon are playing catch up?

~~~
old-gregg
Hard to say. My guess is that an EVF is a trivial add-on and both Nikon and
Canon are capable of executing well and would have added it to their SLRs if
they wanted. __Why __they 're clinging to the mirror... I have no idea. I
certainly prefer optical viewfinders but I can't claim I'm in the majority.

Frankly, the modern photo equipment is just too good to even imagine a
dramatic leap forward by one player. ISOs have skyrocketed, dynamic range is
amazing, AF is fast and intelligent, etc... One major area worth improving is
the weight IMO. If someone defeats the laws of physics and produces an optical
equivalent of 24-70mm f2.8L mounted on a 5D, but at 30% of the weight/size, it
would be an instant hit.

------
alkonaut
Is this a successor to the 7-series cameras, or a step above?

------
gfdgfdg
But 20 fps isn't that much. Why not 60 or 120?

~~~
mikeyouse
> But 20 fps isn't that much.

20FPS is insane on a 24MP full-frame camera. Each RAW is 6000x4000.. The image
buffer can handle 241 pictures, so you can basically capture 12 seconds of 6k
video.

To give some context, this camera can easily record 120FPS 1080P video with
full autofocusing. It can record no-crop 4K video which means if you take a
video of a scene, you can grab a full 24MP still from the video. 1080P video
has 2 million pixels, 4K video has 8.3 million pixels, burst mode on this
camera has 24 million pixels per still.

------
randiantech
Impressive hardware indeed, but price is prohibitive (at least for me!) right
now: usd4500

