
Brilliant design: RCA student radically improves the UK plug - shedd
http://www.iconeye.com/index.php?view=article&catid=1:latest-news&layout=news&id=3864:rca-student-radically-improves-the-uk-plug&option=com_content&Itemid=18&ref=nf
======
ars
Tiny bit of history:

The reason plugs in the UK are so big is that each one must be individually
fused. And the reason for that is something called a "ring circuit".

In a ring circuit you have, say, a 40 amp fuse at the mains/box. From this you
send out two wires, each rated only for 20 amps, going in a circle around the
house. You can now supply 40 amps worth of power using only cheaper 20 amp
wires. (Since the current can flow over both wires at once.)

But this means that the wires going to an individual appliance are far too
small for the main breaker, so each appliance gets a fuse in the plug.

Ring circuits have serious drawbacks, but they helped during a time when there
was a copper shortage.

And ever since then the UK has been stuck with huge plugs.

~~~
cstross
There's also a second reason British plugs are robust and fused: they're built
to carry up to 3 kilowatts at 230 volts. (None of your wimpish American 110
volt mains juice here! Nothing quite makes your hair stand on end like
accidentally touching a live pin carrying 230 volts and 13 amps ...)

To that end, the live and neutral contacts in a British socket are shuttered.
The long earth pin on the plug makes contact before the live or neutral pins
are in the socket, and once in contact, raises a shutter to permit live and
neutral to make contact. And the nether regions of those pins are insulated so
that if a plug is halfway into a socket and something bridges the pins, it
can't make contact.

This is a great design -- for space heaters and ovens and server racks. It's a
bit less useful for the low power consumption devices that have come to
dominate the market (where maximum draw is well under 1Kw -- often under
0.1Kw).

~~~
jergosh
_And the nether regions of those pins are insulated so that if a plug is
halfway into a socket and something bridges the pins, it can't make contact._

That's not really true, you can still get electrocuted if you put you finger
on both bolts.

And that plug is _massive_. Luckily you can use any sticklike thing to allow
continental plugs to be inserted (which incidentally I'm doing right now --
hello from Edinburgh)

~~~
kjuhygtfrde
The L+N pins are insulated half way down so you can't touch any metal part
that is in contact with the supply. The supply terminals are also covered by
shutters so you can't put anything in them when there is no plug in the wall.

------
Hates_
Previous discussions:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=927714>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=782236>

------
swombat
This thing comes up every 6-12 months on HN. Vaporware, from the looks of it.

Wake me up when it actually gets implemented and becomes available for real.

~~~
DevX101
Unless I'm mistaken this community is about innovation. Making his prototype
is a long way along the implementation process and beyond from 'pie in the
sky' stage.

~~~
SeanLuke
Any monkey can innovate. Watch while I innovate the following new word:
gronkuiotis. What matters is not innovation but well-engineered ideas. That
is, ideas which will work in reality rather than in gronkuiotis, I mean,
design-world.

Now I happen to think that this project has some merit, though the rotation of
the two main plugs will never pass muster -- it'll break quickly and at any
rate almost certainly will rapidly become a fire hazard internally after a few
turns. But that's probably fixable.

But what I think the GP was getting on about, and what also annoys me greatly
as well, is that there are many "designers" (i.e. artists) who think that
engineering is the easy part, and what really matters is "innovating". The
mindset of "designers" goes like this. "Let me think of this cool version of a
chair! Now I just need to find a lowly engineer to do the menial engineering
part, I'm sure it's inconsequential." Design-first-engineer-second is how you
wind up with poorly engineered "innovations" like these:
<http://www.strida.com/en/products/>

The basic problem is that most artists have no training in making something
which actually works. It's not sexy to get something to work. It's sexy to
draw pretty pictures.

When I was a little kid I used to draw spaceships where a lightbulb was
focused through a long series of lenses until it became stronger and stronger
and was blasted out the back, Star Wars Propulsion style. I was quite the
innovator, and had some awesome spaceships with impressive lens sequences.
That didn't mean my idea contributed to the global discourse.

~~~
Semiapies
Yes, this sort of thing is of a piece with architecture students getting
internet kudos when they design neat little shelters for the homeless to be
made out of recycled cardboard - terribly clever, except that they estimate
thousands of USD for each unit and admit that these "homes" won't survive
being rained on.

------
jacquesm
Brilliant design, but ganging up unfused plugs like that spells 'fire'.

It's like plugging in a cascade of extension cords.

I don't like the mobile pieces either, they are:

    
    
      - structurally fragile
    
      - likely to break off and decrease safety
    
      - in the case of the contacts a source of contact resistance
        which causes energy to be lost as well as an 
        increased fire risk
    
      - if they are 'wired' a spot where the wiring will break
        because of fatigue issues
    

Good industrial design takes in to account the function and safety issues as
well.

Electrical plugs are a source of some amusement in Europe, in spite of being a
'union' we are not even capable of designing a plug that satisfies everybody
and for some this has become symbolic of the dissent in the various states
against EU conformity.

Have a look here how crazy the situation is:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets>

If we can't even design a common AC plug that everybody will actually adopt
that's food for thought.

~~~
ErrantX
_but ganging up unfused plugs like that spells 'fire'_

Nah, it'll be fine. Actually this sort of thinking is probably because of the
"dangerous plugs" pictures we are always shown as children. A stuffed up
socket just looks automatically dangerous to us.

I guess you're coming from the perspective of overloading the socket. This is
surprisingly hard to do - but you can do it equally well across multiple
sockets (basically, if your fuse breaker is going to let it burn it doesn't
care much where the devices are plugged in :)) so it is something of a
misconception to consider a crowded socket particularly dangerous. People
happily use an 8 gang extension cable without batting an eyelid.

More importantly having fuses in the plugs is unlikely to help all that much,
the crucial fuse is the one in your circuit breaker. The current will divide
across the sockets (my circuit theory is rusty so I won't try any figures :))
and it is the socket taking the brunt. While you would likely eventually see a
spike that trips one of the plugs I'm betting the socket catching fire is more
likely.

And, finally, I suspect these would be rated (well, if they weren't vapour-
ware) for devices with internal fusing or low power draws. I'd also suspect
that the plug "holder" would be fused.

BTW it is somewhat moot anyway because I believe those red tabs are a fuse
holder :)

~~~
jacquesm
The big difference between a single 8 gang extension and this system is that
you're putting all those connections in series, whereas in an 8 gang extension
they're in parallel.

That's a lot of contact resistance, this socket already has twice as much
contact resistance as a normal one (because of the twist in the contact
section).

If we're talking 'light' consumers, say below a 100W or so you might get away
with it but if a 'heavy' consumer would be plugged in as the last element in a
series of 'light' ones you'd be concentrating an awful lot of energy in to a
small spot.

But hey, what do I know about electricity ;)

At 10 mOhm (new and very clean) per contact with 5 plugs 'ganged' up that's
5x4x10mOhm or .2 Ohm. With a 240V working voltage and a 2 KW consumer that
would be 8.3 Amps so about 1.6 V drop, 8.3x1.6=13 Watts, which the copper
wiring alone can probably remove without any heat building up.

If the contacts wear and get older they could get to as much as .3 Ohm apiece.
Now you're looking at 5x4x.3 Ohm, 6 Ohm, in total so that's a 49 V drop,
almost 400 Watts to dissipate just in the contacts. That's a lot of heat.

That's why some older wall sockets will get warm (or even hot) when you plug
in a large consumer.

And your circuit protection will not care even a little bit about all this,
it's just another heater.

~~~
ErrantX
Hmm you sure they are pulling in series? Depends on the design on the plug but
I imagine it works the same way as any other multi-socket (pulling it in
parallel), why would they set it up to work in series (that _would_ be a big
design flaw). One imagines that once this made it to the engineering level
(this is just design, right) this would be sorted out.

 _If we're talking 'light' consumers, say below a 100W or so you might get
away with it but if a 'heavy' consumer would be plugged in as the last element
in a series of 'light' ones you'd be concentrating an awful lot of energy in
to a small spot._

Think about what is likely to have these sorts of plugs; Laptops, for example,
usually pull under 2A. Which means you could have 10 plugged in before it
starts to be a problem, and even pulling 20A to your socket (which is a common
rating for mains sockets) still leaves plenty of leeway.

I'm not sure what my iPhone or radio alarm clock is rated for (am at work atm)
but I can't imagine they add up to more than 1A draw.

As I mentioned, the problem on mains networks overloading comes, usually, from
a faulty trip switch. If it is doing its job the most that you can do is trip
it (and maybe fry some equipment that isn't earthed/fused properly). Stocking
up a plug is pretty safe; again, as mentioned, it is easy (and more common) to
overload the whole circuit via a number of plugs :)

EDIT: meh, it's impossible, anyway, for it to be set up in series, otherwise
you wouldn't be able to pull power correctly.

 _with 5 plugs 'ganged' up_ Uh, there are three plugs in the design?

But this is a reasonable concern (the heat issue). In practice it is not too
much of a worry, if a device is demanding 2KW this plug is clearly unsuitable
(for a number of reasons).

~~~
jacquesm
> Hmm you sure they are pulling in series?

The contacts are in series:

    
    
       live->socket1->socket2->socket3->socket4->socket5->load
                                                            |
                                                            |
       neut<-socket1<-socket2<-socket3<-socket4<-socket5<-load
    

So the current for the last load passes through all the intermediary sockets.
It does not pass through their wiring but it does pass from pin-to-pin. It
would have to and no engineering trick will get you around that when you're
piggybacking stuff.

> Think about what is likely to have these sorts of plugs; Laptops, for
> example, usually pull under 2A. Which means you could have 10 plugged in
> before it starts to be a problem, and even pulling 20A to your socket (which
> is a common rating for mains sockets) still leaves plenty of leeway.

Until someone plugs their hairdryer or fryer in to the last one, which is
possible because it is _still_ valid socket.

~~~
ErrantX
Hmm.... yes, I see what you mean. But it comes back to the same issue; which
is that if you are overloading it to the degree that it passes the rated value
then _the trip switch is the failsafe_. The socket is at just as much risk.

You wouldn't (in the UK anyway) be able to sell these if they were rated less
than the socket.

~~~
jacquesm
That's the whole point I'm making.

You would be doing something that _seems_ safe, that will not trip the breaker
but that _will_ cause a problem. Just the fact that you can gang a bunch of
stuff that is rated does not mean that there aren't any hidden variables here,
and contact resistance is exactly that. Very easy to overlook.

That's why 'three way' connectors were outlawed in many countries (but not in
all):

<http://www.rapidonline.com/1/1/8248-3-way-mains-adaptor.html>

That's the UK version, there are others for different places.

The euro-plug variety of them has been outlawed for so long that I can't even
find an image of one.

People would get up to all kinds of creative uses for these, such as 'wonder
why I can't plug on three-way in to another', and if that works why not
several.

They're also known as 'firestarters', any idea why ;)?

~~~
ErrantX
I'm still unconvinced.. the way overloading usually causes fires is heating
cables till they short and cause sparks/fire. But that is by the by, my main
issues:

If all of the mini-sockets are low rated there is no danger, because of how
the socket is set up, if you use the other socket for something with a big
draw (i.e. if you have a dual socket and plug one of these into it next to
something with a big load it will not overload it).

If you overload this device or the socket it will trip the circuit breaker.
Same as if you plug all the devices into different sockets on the main.

Heat is unlikely to be an issue, even with contact resistance it is related to
the device it is powering - and I contend that this is not a plug you would
use, rate, recommend or legally allow for high power devices. If you're
powering three laptops it works out to about 1W for the whole device (rember,
while the cable goes to each socket the pins are part of the device circuit,
the parallel branch, not the main series).

------
samwillis
That design has been around for a while now, I very much like it but I believe
that they will find it very hard to have it CE marked. I work as a product
designer in the UK and have been involved in the design of a device that plugs
directly into a wall socket, the regulations on the design of the UK plug are
very stringent and this probably doesn't pass. With that said though I think
this is a very good design and would love it if the regulations were changed
and this was achievable.

------
latentflip
I saw this when it first did the rounds on Twitter a while agi, and I have
wondered about it since; I'd love to get my hands on one.

The FAQs on his site claims it will be released this year:
<http://www.madeinmind.co.uk/faq.php> \- I sure hope so.

------
philwise
Here is an alternative for the Duct Tape Programmer:

<http://www.brightyellowcow.com/blog/A-thin-13A-Plug.html>

~~~
confuzatron
That is quite dangerous, as it is unfused.

------
tzs

        Min-Kyu Choi impressed every passer by with
        his neat, apparently market-ready plug that
        folds down to the width of an Apple MacBook Air.
    

Considering that a MacBook Air is 32.5 cm (12.74 inches) wide, I'm not
impressed.

~~~
masklinn
Have you ever held an english plug in your hands? These things are closer to a
battle tank than an AC power plug. Forget about flimsy american crap, english
plugs can be used as assault weapons.

~~~
robin_reala
Growing up with a younger brother I can testify to this last statement.

------
elai
I want the italian type L plugs, except it uses flat pins vs. rounded pins
(rounded pins always seem to fall out at the slightest force, it's extremely
frustrating) and have a plastic covering for part of the live wires like the
british plugs do. Outlets would have 4 to 6 plugs standard instead of one or
two. The Schuko plugs are huge monstrosities.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Type...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Type_L)

------
RiderOfGiraffes
Here are previous submissions so people can catch up on earlier discussions:

\+ <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=841068>

\+ <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=927714> <\- This one has some comments
worth reading.

------
podperson
My problem with this design is that it doesn't provide coverage for the pins
making it less safe. A similar design which included the shield but tilted the
pins could retain most of the safety characteristics of the standard design
without being vulnerable to (say) kids sticking fingers near partially
inserted pins.

------
points
Has _anyone_ not seen this already?

It was posted on Reddit a few years ago. It's been posted on HN twice already,
it's gone around twitter.

Are you all new to the internet?

~~~
gxti
Or perhaps they are less devoted than you to the church of HN. I'm flagging
it, but not because I've seen it before (I have) but because of the hyperbolic
title and writeup.

------
arethuza
I'm surprised that Apple UK don't buy exclusive rights to that design.

~~~
ez77
No need. They'll probably take the main idea, polish it and then patent it.

------
gamma_raj
Beautiful design.

------
ashitvora
Awesome.

------
hackermom
They should just switch their infrastructure to the "Euro"-plug as soon as
they can, like the rest of Europe already uses since ages. Not only is the
"Euro"-plug by far the most solid, durable and safest plug, but it will help
the Brits and the rest of Europe to be in-sync with eachother on the consumer
electronics compatiblity front. Now that the UK has already taken the step to
230V like the rest of Europe, they should complete the rest of the move.

~~~
djhworld
So you're suggesting changing every single plug socket in every
house/business/office premises in the UK? Then changing every single plug on
every appliance you own (or using a converter)

Seems like a huge undertaking to me.

~~~
RBerenguel
It has happened in other countries and in other times. It may be called
progress by some, even.

------
gcb
very dandy but...

the female plugs in the adapter are not to spec to female outlet plugs. so it
can't be legally sold there. (me thinks. in Brazil you can't sell outlet stuff
that are not up to government spec)

no matter how well it fits or looks. Unless he managed to implement the
shutter activated by the earth plug and minimum depths for the live contacts
in that little box. Then i would be honestly impressed.

~~~
regularfry

        the female plugs in the adapter are not to spec to female
        outlet plugs. so it can't be legally sold there. (me thinks. 
        in Brazil you can't sell outlet stuff that are not up to 
        government spec)
    

That's not a problem in the UK. You can sell non-standard-shape plugs and
sockets as long as they're up to the safety spec in all other respects. I
_believe_ that also means that they have to be sufficiently different from the
standard ones that it's impossible to attempt to fit a standard plug into a
non-standard socket (or vice versa).

