
Ask HN: Feeling pressured to accept startup job offer quickly - yahth
Hi,<p>I recently got offered a startup job at a nice little company in SF. Everything seems OK with the company and job. After going back and forth a little on the compensation we came to an agreement.<p>However, they are pressuring me to take the job asap because they have a short list and who ever says &#x27;yes&#x27; first gets the job.<p>I&#x27;ve never encountered this situation before. Is this normal?<p>Here&#x27;s something else that makes me suspicious: I&#x27;m a terrible interviewer and not a great programmer and am suspicious that there&#x27;s a company that will accept me. The interview process was a bit long and through with a phone screen and an office visit and a follow up interview. Maybe this is the interview I finally just nailed after many failed interviews. I can&#x27;t really tell.<p>I&#x27;m a little worried about leaving my current job because now I&#x27;m wondering if this is just a tactic or foible on the part of the CEO or is it an actual sign of something is wrong.
======
IgorPartola
Chances are there is nothing nefarious going on here, just incompetence. This
company probably thinks they have stumbled onto the magic hiring formula. They
are not the first or last to reinvent terrible hiring or management practices.
Personally, I would refuse such an offer, and tell them why. Maybe they will
learn.

As for being a bad interviewee and developer, shoot me an email. I am not in
SF, but I am a strong interviewer/interviewee and if you want I can do a
mock/practice interview with you. As for being a bad developer, the secret
truth is that most of us are terrible until we learn enough to be less
terrible. We usually learn on the job, not before it. There are brilliant
programmers out there, but you don't need to be brilliant to contribute value
to an organization.

~~~
nnd
A bit offtopic, but...

Can you give us any advice on how to solve interview challenges faster and
unstick under the pressure?

~~~
IgorPartola
My approach has been to treat it less like a "they are judging my technical
abilities" and more like a conversation. I have only been in one interview
where the people interviewing me really put on the pressure. Otherwis, it is
usually my own interpretation that is putting on the pressure on myself. Once
I started treating it like a friendly chat, it got a lot easier.

When you are asked technical questions, do your best to answer, but don't
sweat it if you cannot answer fully. Know that with enough time you can most
likely figure it out, then figure out as much as you can on the spot.

Lastly, know your stuff. Being a strong interviewee doesn't mean you can get
any job. It just means that you can show off your own are of expertise well.
Figure out what that is, and if need be improve on it. Side projects help a
lot: to learn, to boost your own confidence and as a resume builder.

~~~
lgieron
Note that this might not work in the google-style whiteboard coding questions.
In these, you're usually judged on the output you manage to produce within the
duration of the interview, and being chatty or even thoroughly explaining your
thinking process will eat into those precious minutes.

~~~
nnd
That's debatable.

I actually had the same impression from my Google interview, but at the same
time they claim that they actually judge you based on you cognitive skills,
rather than the output.

------
khuey
No reputable employer would offer multiple people a single position
simultaneously and give it to the first to say yes. That's a big red flag.

~~~
joncalhoun
I 100% agree with this, but just to play the hopeful optimist:

Is it possible there was a misunderstanding and the CEO meant he needs a
decision from you so he can move on to their second best option if you say no?

I can understand their perspective if this was the case. They likely need to
give everyone who applied quick responses, and some of those responses depend
on whether you accept the offer. They also need to fill a role and it is
generally assumed that someone applying for a position wants it and can decide
quickly. You would be equally upset if a company listed a position they
_might_ be hiring for, but advertised it as a real opening.

------
gojomo
On the one hand:

If you in fact "came to an agreement" on compensation, why are you still not
on-board? Was your negotiating position actually, "if you offer me $X then
I'll stop asking for more but still need some number of days to think"?

Are you waiting to hear from other potential employers? Are there any red
flags _other_ than their impatience?

On the other hand:

If they've truly given multiple people offers simultaneously but said they'll
only hire the one who accepts first, that's a bit of a red flag. (Are you sure
they don't just need your definitive no to issue an offer to their next-
choice?)

Often exploding offers are just bluster: if you made sense as a hire on this
Monday, you'll usually make sense as a hire on the next Monday as well.

Back to the first hand:

You haven't quantified at all the deadlines they've suggested or that you
think would be reasonable.

Maybe _they 're_ sensing a red-flag from you: "We came up to a compensation
number they agreed to, but they still haven't said they'll join or even given
us a date-certain when they'll answer. We'd better force the issue. We've been
burned before waiting for Hamlets to make up their mind!"

Everyone wants to move fast, and be affirmatively wanted by their co-party.
They don't just want to be a stalking-horse for a counter-offer from your
current-employer, or your fall-back if another slower process falls through.

How much time would you want to take to decide, and what new information would
you have after that much time goes by? They may legitimately think that if
you're not enthusiastic now, just after the interviews and negotiations, then
N more days of holding a spot for you isn't going to help.

~~~
yahth
> Maybe they're sensing a red-flag from you: "We came up to a compensation
> number they agreed to, but they still haven't said they'll join or even
> given us a date-certain when they'll answer. We'd better force the issue.
> We've been burned before waiting for Hamlets to make up their mind!"

This is completely fair and I think they want to move fast being a small
company and all. There's lot of interesting work to do and I'd like to help
them do it. They seem like good people anyways.

I'm mostly waiting to hear back from other interviews I've had.

Thanks for your input.

------
random567
Don't take it (or at least treat it as an enormous red flag). Only companies
in a position of weakness do this, which means there is something wrong with
them. My first job I gave in to an exploding offer like that and it did not
end well (though it taught me a ton because I got to be a rock star)

BUT - if you really think that you aren't a great programmer AND this job will
give you the opportunity to level up your skills, then it could be worth it.
(esp if your current job is not programming-related)

Otherwise, leave it in the dust - if you can get a job at 2 places (current
job + this one), you can get a job at another place.

~~~
yahth
> BUT - if you really think that you aren't a great programmer AND this job
> will give you the opportunity to level up your skills, then it could be
> worth it. (esp if your current job is not programming-related)

Yes, this. I'm hoping that maybe I can not feel like such a loser for once if
I take this job. I'll get stuff done and at least learn something.

My job so far has been not those things.

------
dsl
In my experience early stage startups do want people to accept quickly because
they are operating on compressed timelines (we have X days to show Y progress
before money runs out).

That said, if they offered the position to multiple people... huge red flag.
You should post the name of the company here so it shows up in Google results
for them.

~~~
yahth
Thanks for your feedback.

> In my experience early stage startups do want people to accept quickly
> because they are operating on compressed timelines (we have X days to show Y
> progress before money runs out).

This is what I figured. I am trying to see it from their eyes.

> That said, if they offered the position to multiple people... huge red flag.
> You should post the name of the company here so it shows up in Google
> results for them.

I'm not prepared to do that to them yet because I don't think there's malice
on their part.

------
brandonlipman
I have been through a very similar situation. I would be cautious as if they
are rushing you they may be trying to hide information from you. One thing I
would spend a lot of time looking at is other employees that they have/had.
Look at there work history and talk to them if you can.

From my experience (lesson learned the hard way), one thing to be 100%
confident on is that what you are signing, the employment agreement, is solid.
Pay the money for a good lawyer to look it over.

Let me know if you need a reference for a lawyer.

Also them saying, "who ever says 'yes' first gets the job" would make me very
suspicious as they are not valuing your skills.

------
ChuckMcM
By law, when you received your written offer letter it included an expiration
date. If you accept before then, they have to employ you, if you don't accept
by then, they are not obligated to give you a job even if you say yes.

Start ups are moving quickly and trying to get to the next milestone. That
often means they really want people on or off, but not off "thinking about
it."

That said, it sounds like you already made up your mind right? You are having
second thoughts so own that and say "Thanks, but no thanks." and keep looking
and/or doing what ever it is you are doing.

~~~
ctvo
A few questionable statements here.

Can you provide a source for your claim that 1) offer letters require an
expiration date 2) they have to employ you if you accept?

In the US (his situation is in SF), employment is at-will and offer letters
are not contracts. They can cancel the offer at anytime and after acceptance,
can terminate your employment at anytime.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Note, I'm not a lawyer, but I am a manager and I've been through the "managing
within the law" training many times :-) That said, I found a relevant case ...

Toscano v. Greene Music, 124 Cal.App.4th 685 (2004), the California Forth
District Court of Appeal held that a job applicant who quits an at-will job to
accept another at-will position may recover lost future wages from the
employer who presented the job offer if: (1) the second employer withdraws its
job offer and (2) the employee who accepted the job offer (relied on the
promised job offer) can prove lost earnings by "substantial evidence." The
court reasoned that promissory estoppel (reasonable reliance on a promise,
here the job offer) entitles a plaintiff who quit a job to recover the "lost
future wages" the employee can prove s/he would have earned from his or her
former at-will employer had the plaintiff not relied on the promised
employment and remained at his former job.

Generally in every version of the training I've been in the written offer
letter is treated as a binding contract to employ within the constraints of
the letter (background checks, expiration dates, etc)

~~~
gojomo
That's helpful, thanks, but to be clear: that case supports damages for having
relied upon the offer and thus quitting a prior job, rather than any
obligation-to-employ-in-the-offered-role. So:

* withdrawing the offer _before_ the candidate quits the old job would seem to imply no damages (and no obligation-to-employ)

* any damages would be based on lost wages at the old job, not the new offered compensation rate or other benefits of the withdrawn position

It might also be kind of an interesting legal puzzle as to whether a person
trapped in such a situation would be eligible for unemployment compensation.
(It doesn't fit the usual eligibility pattern... but it is sort-of-
involuntary... and the employer-who-withdrew-the-offer might prefer to take a
hit on their unemployment-tax-rates as a way to offset their damages with
unemployment-payments... but the system probably can't even model that.)

------
istvan__
Usually when people tell me this, I ask them to go with the other option
(candidate in this case). Quite frankly, in SF there is a huge shortage of
tech staff, so either they are lying to your face or they have something that
attracts candidates to them that I am not aware of. Either case, I don't think
it is ethical to do this.

------
quipp
Why are you looking for work? Can't be that great of a place if you're
looking, so maybe the risk is worth it considering.

Why would you expect them not to pressure you?

They probably have some other canadidate who will cost more than you and they
don't want to drop the ball with them.

Also, while they are pressuring you they are obviously not rushing. You have
had three interviews with them. That must take some time, more than a few days
I'd imagine (probably a week or two minimum).

Shit or get off the pot man :)

------
BurningFrog
I understand wanting a quick answers so they can offer the job to candidate B
or C before they accept other offers.

But offering it to several people at once is not only really weird. It also a
really poor algorithm. These people are bad engineers, and you do not want to
work with them!

Your interviewing and skills insecurities are a whole separate topic.

When you go to a startup, you need to be ready for the job to end any day. If
your current job is more secure, think about if you want to lose that.

~~~
DevX101
> These people are bad engineers

By OP's own admission, he's a bad engineer too. He should take it if the money
is acceptable and he likes the company.

~~~
zem
no, if you're a bad engineer you really want to work with people who are
"doing it right", so that you can learn from them.

------
svec
Do you have a written & signed offer letter? Or is it all verbal/over-the-
phone? If it's not in writing & signed, then it's not real.

And as many others are saying, it's a HUGE red flag that the company said they
offered the job to more than just you - it's a deal breaker, in my opinion.

Knowing only what you've written here, I would tell the company "thanks but no
thanks" and walk away.

------
striking
Don't give in to pressure. Double-check the facts, because they might be
pressuring you so that you miss something. Make sure that they value you.

If they're legitimately what you're looking for, though, it may just be
inexperience on their CEO's part. The pressure may just be incidental.

Having answered none of your concerns, I wish you the best of luck.

------
jacquesm
Never _ever_ agree to anything at all under pressure. If that's what it takes
for the offering party they are either incompetent or malicious there is no
pay-off in finding out which. That goes for hiring offers but also for any
other kind of offer.

The one exception I can think of for exploding offers is if a key employee has
left and the company will lose direction if the position isn't filled
immediately. This normally is not the case in start-ups.

------
nartz
Have you done your due diligence - is it a good place to work? Are there smart
people there? Are you going into a job you actually want to?

If so, go for it. You'll never know until you do.

If you have reservations, or need more time, be up front and tell them that
(and see what they say). The hiring process is like sales, there is a need to
'close' people so you create artificial pressure so you can get people to make
a decision (and take them off the market).

------
mind_heist
Well - While a bunch of folks here are telling this could be a red flag (and
rethink / walk away ), I just want to present the other side of the story.

(1) Managers/Companies also have deadlines when it comes to hiring a
candidate. And if there is an impending "Hiring Freeze" that is about to be
enforced , the desperation to hire someone goes up. This happens in large
companies ( I m not sure about startups though); In these cases - the hiring
Managers feel its OK for a candidate fall short of a bunch of expectations .
They might as well have a resource that can get some work done , instead of
not hiring any one ( and be stuck with one less resource for the next few
months) . Most of the hiring freezes last one quarter. Sometimes , it might
last two quarters - and it mounts a lot of pressure on the existing members of
the team.

(2) Hiring managers (sometimes) look for potential than what you are currently
capable of. You might have not the exact skills they are looking for - but you
might have shown enough enthusiasm about the role / and might have strong
indicators that you could get the job done for them.

Its fairly possible either one of these or both could be happening in your
case.

------
chaosfactor
This is called an exploding offer. It's not really real.

------
jakejake
I've interviewed before where, once the offer was made, they did want me to
decide rather quickly. This was a startup that was reputable, popular and
growing extremely quickly. However they didn't make me feel as if I was racing
against other candidates for the spot - they just wanted to get to work.

I would just make sure to do your research and see if you can find anything
about this company or the main people involved and decide if you trust them.

By the way - most startups will fail. That is the reality. If you are going to
work at a startup you need to be willing to make risky career moves.

------
grumblestumble
I moved to the Bay Area about a year ago and interviewed at more startups than
I'd care to count. The time-pressure offer is pretty much SOP in my experience
- 48 hours for a response was the usual limit. Personally, I find it tacky and
pathetic, and yep, I ended up going with someone who gave me a week to make my
decision. It has far less to do with them "wanting to move on to the next
thing" than them wanting to prevent you from following through with other
interviews you may be in process with.

------
crdoconnor
It's a sales tactic. It usually means that they are lowballing you.

~~~
huhtenberg
It doesn't "usually" mean that. They may simply need to get someone really
quickly.

~~~
crdoconnor
Unlikely. Training ramp up until a developer becomes fully productive usually
takes months. Hiring quickly is a false economy if I ever saw one.

The times when it's been used on me, the company in question has _never_ been
in a hurry to hire.

------
err4nt
My take on the situation is that if they are hiring the first (pre-approved)
person to say 'Yes!' for a position, then they care more about the position
than the person. My gut says that you wouldn't have sufficient job security,
because to them, even in the hiring process you're expendable and
intercheangeable. You're lucky if they used your name instead of 'Dear
Applicant' so they could just blast out the same message to all candidates.

Work for people who value your person, and say: "I'm willing to pay x dollars
to have YOU on the team!"

If it was me and this situation went down, it would be hard, but I would reply
with this: "I would love to work with you, but at this point it doesn't seem
clear that you want to work with me. Let me know when you are certain that I
am the person you want on the team, and we can talk about my availability at
that time."

------
fsk
I've had job offers revoked, but that happened when I was unemployed at the
time.

If they're disorganized or unethical, that increases the chance they will fail
in 3-12 months. It also increases the chance that you might feel the need to
leave again after working there.

------
saluki
It is a red flag, but they may be in a hurry to get someone on board or maybe
misspoke about first to say yes is in.

If you think you can learn, level up your skills there and the compensation is
satisfactory I would lean toward accepting.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Don't let an opportunity slip by.
You can always give it a go, see how you like it, learn and add to your
resume. Then if it's not working out you can look for a new position.

------
6a68
Exploding offers are a standard move in the VC startup playbook. You're
probably going to get a standard "just an engineer" startup experience. Is
this what you want?

Here, read this and think it over: [https://al3x.net/2013/05/23/letter-to-a-
young-programmer.htm...](https://al3x.net/2013/05/23/letter-to-a-young-
programmer.html)

------
tw8845
Go with your gut. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. This advice has never
served me wrong, although I have been burned plenty of times before by
attempts to rationalize around red flags.

------
hkmurakami
1-2 weeks is reasonable. I've had an exploding offer of 2 days given to me
before. That was negotiable if they wanted you and you just said "thx but I
need longer". YMMV.

------
gorbachev
Go with your gut feeling. Something is making you unsteady about the company.
Either clarify it with the company or decline the offer.

Either way don't accept an offer you have reservations.

------
Kalium
I would suggest pushing back against the pressure. Tell them that you don't
appreciate it and you'll decide in your own time after you get the offer in
writing.

------
forkandwait
Lame, red flag, tell them to stuff it.

------
MichaelCrawford
If there is anything I regret about my career, it is that many times I have
agreed to things without really taking time to think them through.

It would be reasonable for them to provide a specific deadline, so that they
could offer the job to someone else if you were to totally blow them off by
not replying.

It's better to be broke and hungry than to take a job that you later regret.

