
Senior Citizens Struggle with Suicide as Loneliness and Isolation Set In - wallflower
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/27/745017374/isolated-and-struggling-many-seniors-are-turning-to-suicide
======
40acres
Look to Japan for insights on the effects of an aging population on an
advanced economy. While immigration acts as a buffer within the United States
many trends we are currently experiencing can be seen in Japan as well.

With current societal trends, I suspect that human interaction and emotional
labor will become quantified and decoupled from the health care sector. A
large fraction of the population - from children, to teens, working adults and
the elderly - need more face to face interaction. Volunteer organizations,
social clubs and other forms of physical 'social infrastructure' (parks,
libraries) need additional funding to help fill the gap in so many of our
lives.

~~~
mymythisisthis
Look to medieval society. Everyone was in some form of guild. Guilds
determined how you dressed, who you socialized with, held ceremonies and
parties. It wasn't just a trade union, it was a whole way of life.

~~~
vectorEQ
people still had sense of community then, because there were challenges that
needed cooperation from everyone. In areas of the world where this still holds
true, often there is still more care for each-other.

~~~
squish78
That, and 85% of people were peasants who didn't have access to guild society

------
11thEarlOfMar
I'd like to develop a blueprint for a cookie-cutter community for social
security recipients. The blueprint would include design and construction for
physical structures such as community spaces, bedroom spaces, land size,
possibly food gardening areas, and activity areas.

Then, design a type of self-governing community 'constitution' that would
direct operation of the community by the community. An expanded home owners
association of sorts.

The community would be funded by the social security income of the residents.
All residents who are still able work in some capacity to offset the costs of
operation. Those who are no longer able to work would still remain and be
assisted by other members and skilled nurses.

Professional services such as legal and counseling can be provided on site.
Perhaps add a medication dispensary.

A single community could have, I don't know, 1,000 people? The average social
security benefit in 2019 is $1,461. This would yield a $17,500,000 annual
budget for the community to operate [3].

This is a similar concept as a Kibbutz, which works as an organizing approach
in Israel [1]. One difference is that this community would be primarily funded
by social security receipts, rather than industrial or business activities.
Many costs of operation can be offset by growing their own food, making their
own beer and wine, doing their own maintenance, managing the finances using
standard corporate control policies.

Such an arrangement would have all the opportunities that seniors need: Social
engagement, valued work, friendships, privacy when they want it, people
watching out for each other, a feeling of contributing.

More importantly, it would be available to seniors who hit retirement with no
wealth, and no income other than their social security check. There are 25
million Americans in this situation today [2].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz)

[2] [https://www.ncoa.org/news/resources-for-reporters/get-the-
fa...](https://www.ncoa.org/news/resources-for-reporters/get-the-
facts/economic-security-facts/)

[3] [https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-
an...](https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-answers/how-
much-social-security-will-i-get.html)

~~~
nostrademons
Cookie-cutter community is an oxymoron.

Communities arise spontaneously when a group of people find themselves
together with a common purpose, common values, common moment in time, or they
just enjoy each others' company. If those elements aren't present, you just
have a bunch of individuals sharing space. If they are, a small group forms,
they invite others who share their values, and the community grows
organically. The physical plan and organization can _affect_ whether a
community develops, but nearly all interventions appear to be negative. You
can kill community, but only its members can grow it.

Lots and lots of people have tried to engineer community, from everyone who
failed at building a Web 2.0 social-networking startup to colleges that
manipulate their housing & dining arrangements to apartment complexes with
"community rooms" and scheduled events to the huge planned Chinese & Soviet
megacities that were supposed to house millions but basically got nobody.

Community always starts with individual humans, authentic emotions, and a time
and place. A lot of people think that by supplying the time & place they'll
get the community, but it doesn't work that way. People and emotions come
first.

~~~
qarlow
I mostly agree, but I think (affordable) time and place is actually incredibly
scares these days. To the point where people will travel half way across the
world for it. Pretty much everywhere is pricing themselves out of having
communities. That is where a lot of these places fail. They have all sorts of
barriers like high costs, difficult admissions or rules, and then expect
people to be creative.

------
seibelj
Most important things in life are family, friends, and health. If you have
those 3 things consider yourself blessed. I always try and put those 3 things
above work, even though I work a lot, because having those 3 things is so
vitally important.

~~~
CNJ7654
Wise words, although I would also count work as a blessing in itself. Having a
real sense of purpose and usefulness in the world is important. Being forced
out of the workforce by advanced aging must be rough

~~~
tonyedgecombe
If you only find purpose and usefulness through work then you are going to
find it painful when it inevitably comes to an end.

~~~
davidjnelson
I wonder if this is why meditation meetups skew to an aging demographic.

------
andygcook
I know promotional posts are annoying and I'm risking downvotes by posting
this... but decided it's relevant enough to share a service my older brother
built called NanaGram.co that helps with elder loneliness. The product's
pretty simple: you SMS in your photos to a phone number and then then once a
month they get printed and shipped to your loved ones in the mail.

It's honestly a very good way to keep your loved ones updated on your life and
deliver some joy to their day. From experience, phone calls with my grandma
before she passed away were much more interesting once she started getting
regular photos too because we had new topics to talk about each time.

Want to be up front that I have no financial incentive to post this and am not
involved with the product at all apart from helping to build the initial
prototype. Just a proud of younger brother and happy customer.

~~~
hestipod
Good on your brother for building something with a kind purpose at it's core.
We need to use tech more for things like that, and less for things that take
data/attention/money just to make someone rich.

------
hkmurakami
Community is unfortunately increasingly hard to find in this world, especially
as we pile on the decades.

~~~
subhobroto
That's not true.

You grow a community. Your community is what you make of it

I wrote in some details about the challenge, the U.S. faces, here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20557757](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20557757)

~~~
icelancer
Can you not spam your link in EVERY comment here?

~~~
subhobroto
Hi!

It's not "my" link. It's a hyperlink to a comment that I made here elsewhere
that I think a person might like.

Are you upset that I'm trying to hyperlink to a comment that I made here
elsewhere that I feel the person I responded to might find interesting?

Or are you upset that the text of the link itself is too long?

Or is your concern that the comment I hyperlinked to is irrelevant?

I would like the feedback of the person whose response resonated with me and
thus placed the link there.

I don't like repeating myself over and over again. I prefer not having
fragmented conversations if it can be helped.

Hyperlinking is the killer feature of the web, I think, so I use it.

How would you go about this yourself?

~~~
dang
Doing it several times is perhaps a bit excessive. It gives the impression
that you're using the thread to promote something rather than converse with
the specific person you're replying to.

------
DanBC
> while adults 85 and older, regardless of gender, are the second most likely
> age group to die from suicide.

The rate is high, but the actual numbers are very low, because there aren't
many people over the age of 85.

[https://imgur.com/a/iktpfjS](https://imgur.com/a/iktpfjS)

This is an ongoing tragedy, but not because the rate is high. It's because
suicide is mostly preventable, and many of these people will be in closer
contact with health care providers. It seems like there are years and years
where action could be taken.

I can't speak to the US's approach to suicide prevention (other than to say it
appears mostly incoherent from outside) but they should be paying some
attention to depression, social isolation, and suicidal thinking in older
people, and I'd be surprised if this was absent from the strategies. But they
will be putting it in context: not many people over the age of 85 die by
suicide. Thousands and thousands of people between the ages of 25 - 50 die by
suicide.

So, from what I can tell over the age of 80 there were about 2500 deaths by
suicide in 2017. For the ages 45-49 it was over 4000 people. For 50-54 it was
over 4000 people. And for 55-59 it was nearly 4500 people.

[https://imgur.com/a/iktpfjS](https://imgur.com/a/iktpfjS)

One of the problems with suicide articles being posted to HN is that most
people here have no idea how suicide is defined across the US, nor how it
varies by counties and states. I certainly don't, and it makes talking about
the data really hard.

------
autoexec
I know people in their 30s who have suicide as their ultimate end of life
plan. They don't have retirement savings beyond a 401k, they live paycheck to
paycheck, retirement and pensions aren't an option for them so they know
they'll work until they are too old or sick. They're hoping that assisted
suicide will be legal by the time they are overwhelmed by medical expenses or
pain, but all them are willing to put a gun in their mouths if it comes to
that.

~~~
mktmkr
Curious what you think is deficient about only having a 401k (and, presumably,
Social Security) as a retirement plan. Isn't this the entire sales pitch of
Vanguard, that you put a couple of bucks in your 401k every week and then you
retire?

I'm not personally all-in on IRAs, but it seems like an accepted strategy.

~~~
autoexec
I don't think any of them are so sure their 401ks and Social security will be
reliable. People who were depending on their 401ks in 2008 were horrified
while their savings just started disappearing. Social Security was never
intended to be enough for people to live off of and my entire life people have
been concerned about how/if it can continue into the future. A lot of
Republicans would love to see the Social security program ended entirely and
these days who knows if those folks will end up in a position where they can
make that happen.

~~~
ryandrake
I think whether defined-contribution retirement is a successful experiment is
yet to be determined. I’m in my 40s and everyone I have opened up to about
finances and who have reciprocated have admitted to having savings that are
totally inadequate, by one or two orders of magnitude. And these are people in
tech, better off than average. Few people I know expect to be able to retire
and keep their standard of living.

The median American has around $10k in savings and 30% of us have less than
$1000. The median savings for people of retirement age is a mere $100k, which
isn’t enough to live on for more than a few years in most cities. I’m not sure
how self-funded retirement is really expected to work.

All of the people I know who are comfortably retired are on old school
defined-benefit pensions. AFAIK 401k-dependent retirees have not yet hit
critical mass, so we haven’t seen the financial catastrophe that may be
coming.

------
logfromblammo
Article elides over the fact that in the US, suicide may be the result of
rational analysis, including consideration of pros and cons, in response to
specific and relevant factors. Particularly economic factors.

Looming large is the idea that healthcare costs can burn down an entire
lifetime of toil, saving, and planning in a matter of months. Some people
would prefer to leave something of value to their survivors, rather than give
everything that's left to their last physician, and then be a charity case or
family burden for all their remaining days.

Gen X and Millennial cohorts are even less secure than Boomers financially as
they age, so the problem will only grow worse. If you have a tiny nest egg,
and a fixed income, it doesn't take much math to calculate the amount of time
one can afford to continue to live, given a certain expense profile. When the
choices come down to the number of additional weeks you can eke out by
switching from Spam to store-brand cat food, it may also become attractive to
look into eating a nice steak dinner, saving the last big chunk of meat to be
aspirated, so your survivors don't _know, for certain_ , that you committed
suicide.

If you were staring down the barrel of a life where nothing joyful or
worthwhile will ever happen to you again, and every day will be slightly worse
than the last, and is marked only by the angle of the shadows and the color of
the pills, with no hope of reversal, I can't reasonably argue against suicide.
In that sense, denying the methods and opportunities for suicide without
addressing the root causes of motive, as the facility is paid for every day
the person lives, seems a bit like torture for profit.

I have personally changed domicile cities four times in my career, looking for
gainful employment, and each time I came away with fewer people that would
even notice if I die this evening. I expect that my children will soon leave
me, hopefully to find work that allows them to support themselves, and if I
don't die first, I will one day lose my spouse as well. I see no way to avoid
this. I can't afford now to worry about whether I will be lonely later.

My lack of lifetime financial security has translated into a smaller social
support network of friends, and has definitely resulted in choosing to have
fewer children. And it has reduced the amount of time I can spend renewing
family relationships. My parents see less of me when I am 400 miles away than
they did when I was 150 miles away. I'm certainly not alleviating their
loneliness. If either committed suicide, I'm not certain how I would even find
out about it.

~~~
davidjnelson
Would zoom calls help with long distance relationships like this?

------
FillardMillmore
I pessimistically think this problem is only going to get worse as young
people today grow older and people/politicians today largely ignore the
current problem.

In Western cultures, people have become isolated and atomized - by trends such
as technology, changing social norms (and family structures), diversification
of demographics, and the gradual decline of social structures like religion -
as a result, people feel more lonely and feel as if they have less support or
purpose.

It seems as if people are more genuinely kind in places that are remote and
not densely populated. Folks in cities have so many interactions on daily
basis and see so many people (some of those people in dire situations, like
homeless people or drug addicts) that they seem to become almost numb to it.
If you fell on the sidewalk in New York City, how many people would step over
you and how many people would offer to help you up and/or see if you're okay?
Would this change depending on the age of the person who fell?

I have a grandfather who is old enough to remember betting with friends on
Nazi battles with the Soviets that were broadcast over the radio (details of
the battles and the progression). So much has changed since he was a young man
- I imagine it's startling and quite unsettling for older people. The rate of
change seems now faster than it's ever been and they certainly can't keep up
with it. I've talked with older people that simply feel like for this reason,
among many others, they've been left behind and forgotten about. This could be
a possible contributor to elderly suicide rates as well.

~~~
mjevans
It shouldn't be religion. It also shouldn't be hanging out in a bar, or
smoking, or some inane stadium event where people don't really mingle.

There needs to be a third place# where it's expected to have polite
conversation and interactions that can lead to "being social".

In smaller communities maybe that's a town square or a park between things,
but that just doesn't scale and can't cope with decentralization (which is one
of the driving forces behind the tech revolution).

I don't really have an answer, but I do know that actual civic planning a re-
organizing society so that we actually move towards having more free time and
less "work time" will be beneficial to this and many other problems.

#
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place)

------
gnulinux
I'm in my 20s and struggling with excessive social isolation. God knows what
will happen when I'm in my 70s.

~~~
subhobroto
> what will happen when I'm in my 70s

Well, grow a community. Your community is what you make of it!

The community you need might not thrive right now where you live, so look
around and move to where you find real genuine happiness

I wrote in some details about the challenge, the U.S. faces, here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20557757](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20557757)

------
Tiktaalik
NA has designed its cities to require a car and has not paid any thought to
how this isolates and erodes the quality of life of the elderly once they
cannot legally drive due to health reasons. Whoops.

As boomers age it'll get worse.

Yet another reason we need to redesign our cities.

~~~
r00fus
Economics of profiting from misery will prevent any effective change as
numerous industries actually make more money from this state of affairs.

This won't change until/unless civic participation in government increases.

~~~
drcross
I don't completely agree. As Camus once said: "hell is other people". As
prosperity increased people fled each others company thinking that being in
isolation would rid them of social anxiety. There was little consideration for
the results, which is profound loneliness.

~~~
r00fus
Great, I agree - now do a bit more analysis and regress one step further - who
profits from this? Why is this a problem now, rather than say, 50 years ago?

~~~
drcross
>do a bit more analysis and regress one step further - who profits from this?

Home builders making individual houses and possibly therapists and pharma
making anti depression pills. Did I miss any?

>Why is this a problem now, rather than say, 50 years ago?

People shared bedrooms, went to communal bath houses for example and there was
a stronger family unit most likely due to societal customs.

------
jibla
An interesting and inspiring case in Switzerland
-[http://politicindia.com/news-
details.php?newsid=1059](http://politicindia.com/news-details.php?newsid=1059)

They've introduced a novel banking scheme in which retired care volunteers
“deposit” hours worked looking after elderly people. In return they can use
any time saved up for their own care provision later in life.

------
b_tterc_p
Idk, I think we should make assisted suicide options more prevalent for older
people. The reality is that life sucks for many of them. The article says that
many of them feel like they’re a burden. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
You’re going to be aware that you provide little value to people’s lives if
you’re unable to do anything and are personally in general discomfort from
your decaying body. Suicide does not need to be seen as a terrible thing. It’s
totally reasonable to celebrate the end of life. To leave on your own terms
sounds much less scary. The normal ideal way to die seems to be surrounded by
loved ones but most people don’t get that. They get a scary bodily failure
alone and in pain.

Not to mention the psychological benefits that might come from a healthier
image of dying for young people.

~~~
whatshisface
Instead of changing society so that unhappy people die, why not change society
so that they're happy?

~~~
michaelbuckbee
My family has a history of dementia and it's terrifying. Currently my
grandmother is 95 and more or less can't remember anything from the past 30
years. She doesn't know who I am when I visit because I don't look like I did
30 years ago.

She requires 24/7 caretaking and most conversations with her end with "I don't
know why the lord hasn't taken me yet". She's very physically weak and
struggles to just walk around the house, etc.

This has been more or less her state for the past 15 years. Despite the best
efforts of the family she is 95 and ready to go and not sure what else we can
do.

------
qwerty456127
Every person should be taught mindfulness in their adolescence or as soon as
possible during their later life. People struggling from loneliness because
they have never learnt to use their minds the proper way are like people
struggling from immobility because they have never learnt to walk.

------
pkaye
According to the graph, the 45-54 age group has the highest suicide rate. I'd
have never expected that.

~~~
cptskippy
Why? After 40 your body starts to decline and your mortality stares you in the
face. If you aren't already running a successful business or an executive then
your career is either stalling or in decline. If you haven't been planning for
retirement then you're running out of options.

45-54 seems like the age group that's burdened most with their future and the
consequences of their life choices catching up to them.

~~~
nvarsj
> the consequences of their life choices catching up to them

That's a bit harsh. If you are a post baby boomer, you're in the minority if
you think you can retire comfortably. I frankly don't see how the majority of
gen-x/millennials can retire - except to not have kids and save >50% of our
salary, and pray the stock market doesn't blow up.

~~~
cptskippy
A absolutely agree with you and I'm a little confused as to why I said it like
that. I'm old enough to have been part of the generation that was taught you'd
be successful in life and be able to retire in comfort if you did what society
expected of you, and I'm young enough to see that was a lie.

------
algaeontoast
Honestly, if I pass a certain age and my mental or physical faculties start to
go, I'd rather opt for some form of suicide than suffering myself or making my
family pay to watch...

------
subsaharancoder
Keep your friends close and your grand parents closer

------
subhobroto
I would like to see how the numbers stack up to other countries that have a
better work life balance.

Here's my hypothesis - the work life "balance" in the U.S. is incredibly
messed up - like real bad.

The assumption most people make is "Let's work real hard while we are young so
we have all the money we need when we are older. We will have fun then".

So right out of college, with six figures in debt, people are working 40+
hours/week (typically 60+ hours/week), working weekends without blinking an
eye.

Everyone's doing it, it's the norm, so what's wrong with doing what everyone
is doing.

No one has time to make meaningful relationships.

Most people spend less than 3 years at a job, so what's the point anyways. You
can't get a good salary hike without quitting your existing and joining a new
company.

That model bleeds into one's personal life as well - people are so busy
working hard that they miss the opportunities to build a meaningful
relationship with their spouse and children.

Guilt sets in so the spouse and children get showered with expensive gifts and
vacations but they have nothing much to talk about during those vacations
either so they spend most of their time visiting random places, taking tons of
photos, posting them on social and handling the barrage of comments they get
for those photos.

The emptiness does not resolve though - and when it gets intolerable the
spouses file for divorce.

Maybe it will work out with someone else.

Once they retire - they have two big problems:

1\. yes, they do have money, but don't know what to do with it

2\. they also don't know what to do with the free hours they now have
available!

As a result, they hand over their money to fund managers who proceed to loose
all or most of that money because they are sure they can beat the market.

In the meantime, they have been so frigging busy most of their adult life with
the one thing they did for their employers that they did not develop social
skills (outside the fake "professional" facade) or general skills - and
everyone's so fake that it gets down under your skin because deep inside you
can feel the fakeness so you hesitate to make more social ties.

With the money depleted and being bored out of their minds, what's the next
step?

It's easy to blame everyone else for this, but the reality is the time is past
for deep introspection.

~~~
opportune
I agree this is a common archetype these days but it's still not a large part
of the population - probably less than 20%, maybe less than 10%. Most people
don't have six figures of college debt nor do they make enough money / have
the kind of job that demands more more more in exchange for making you rich in
your 40s+. Also this type of person has existed for a century at least,
basically since the economy corporatized and white collar career oriented jobs
became common

I think another issue is that those without career oriented / rich lifestyles
live in a society that is not designed for them. Almost all land in areas
where people live is privatized, so the area they can realistically use for
social activities is limited to mostly parks, and in the US getting most
places quickly requires some form of private transport. Digital media gives
the most entertainment/$ so a lot of poorer people actually spend more time in
front of screens than rich people, moreso for children. And much of that time
is spent on social media which makes many people feel insecure or inferior.

Further, most people don't have any sense of progress or improvement or even
purpose in their lives - which can be a foreign feeling to those of us who are
better off. Religion used to be a cornerstone of people's lives, and is
quickly losing popularity. Social mobility in the US is very low, and most
people don't have any meaningful sense of "career progression".

~~~
qrs
Great comment.

Especially the ratio of

> Digital media gives the most entertainment/$

------
kylehotchkiss
This is a issue that many churches in America are uniquely positioned to help
with. They often have busses, an army of people willing to volunteer, and wide
open spaces totally unused on weekdays.

But church leadership would rather spend their resources waging a war against
people’s sexual choices and getting involved in political positions. It’s sad
to see religious resources so widely unused to help those in society in this
time of need.

~~~
xamuel
War against people's sexual choices? Like, with bombs and guns, or a
figurative war?

It's interesting to look at Jesus's actions in the area. A mob brought him a
woman caught cheating on her husband. Asking, should she be put to death? They
wanted to trap Jesus: if he said "Yes", he would violate Roman law, if he said
"No", he would violate Jewish law. Jesus said, "Let him who is without sin
among you be the first to cast a stone at her." (John 8:7). After that
disbursed the mob, Jesus told the woman: "Now go and sin no more."

There's nothing harder to convince a man of than the fact that he's a sinner.
And yet, when I finally realized that fact and asked Jesus for forgiveness, it
was more liberating than anything else in this world, more liberating than I
could ever have possibly imagined. When you experience something like that,
you realize: the kingdom of heaven is near.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
_" War against people's sexual choices? Like, with bombs and guns, or a
figurative war?"_

I guess it depends on what you define conversion therapy and other 'bible
camp' type activities.

~~~
xamuel
Pretty sure that's a vanishingly small minority of churches. BTW, did you know
Jesus provided us a protocol for correcting such misguided churchmembers? You
can read about it in Matthew 18:15-17. You should accept Christ as Lord and
Savior and then apply this protocol against the offending church-leaders. If
they refuse to listen to you, Jesus himself sanctions you treating them as
outcasts!

~~~
SolaceQuantum
The sentiment against LGBTQ people is not small at all, which is why I
included 'and other bible camp activities'. Just because there is a religious
tenent for it doesn't mean that religion is practicing that. Catholic
institutions regularly commit systematic oppression of minority demographics,
most notably by depriving women of necessary healthcare and medication.
Protestant institutions in many places drive systems of oppression and
ostracizing of vulnerable groups- victims of domestic violence, removing
agency from women, labeling LGBTQ identities as morally wrong, etc.

~~~
xamuel
Worldly morals change from decade to decade. That is why Jesus said: "Everyone
who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man
who built his house on sand." (Matthew 7:26)

In the future, things you and I do today will be considered as barbaric as the
intolerant things you're talking about there. Also, in the future, things will
become accepted which you and I today think are barbaric.

None of Jesus's disciples do a good job of following Christ's teachings such
as "Judge not, lest you be judged" (Matthew 7:1), myself included.
Discipleship is a lifelong process. Now as for myself, I love LGBTQ people,
and because I love them, I hope and pray they too will know the joy and love
of Christ as I know it. Some of them may be offended when I say something like
that, and we Christians should try (although it is difficult and we often
stumble) to continue to love them even in spite of their taking offense at our
loving them.

------
totesmaslany
MFW I've been suicidal for 4 years (since I was 24)...

