
Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese - dnetesn
http://nautil.us/blog/alienation-is-killing-americans-and-japanese
======
brightball
A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people
actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe
everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show
up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be
there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for
your kids where you can meet other parents and get involved in the community
with those same people. At least in the southeast US where I'm from, churches
have filled this multifaceted role of connecting people for years. All ages
from newborns to elderly. I don't know of another community structure that
even comes close to pulling that off.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
Churches are definitely a great community resource, but I imagine that many
people (myself included) don't want to be preached something we don't believe
in every week even if it means losing out on those community benefits. I
wonder if something else could be established, or even if such a thing as
"athiest/agnostic churches" could be organized.

~~~
huxley
You'll find that in some communities, the Universalist Unitarians or
liberal/universalist/nontheist Quaker meetings might fit the need.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers)

I've known several atheists/agnostics that go to both locally and the few
times I've gone to either the meetings tend to be quite low in dogma. Not my
thing, but if you crave that sort of community might be worth taking a look.

~~~
cmrdporcupine
I looked into the local Unitarian Universalists, and they are very New Age
types. I like their social justice angle but wouldn't be able to sit through
their sermons/discussions without making faces.

~~~
CelestialTeapot
If you're not interested in the woo, you could always try the Secular Humanist
Society or other similar rationalist local groups that don't preach
religiosity.

[https://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/locations/](https://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/locations/)

------
tristor
Another part of this I think that people don't really talk about is increased
social isolation as a direct cause of Internet addiction and the rise of
social media and online gaming. There is a term for this concept in Japan
'hikikomori', but it's just as true in the US.

As someone who recently turned 30, yet has remained single most of my life
despite my other successes, I see it very clearly. I grew up along with the
Internet as many people in my generation did. Even when around other people in
my age group, everyone is disconnected from each other. There's less empathy
and relationships in my generation feel more superficial. At any moment,
someone will pull out a smartphone and be using social media while literally
standing around with a group of supposed friends. I'd say it's the group of
people I've hung out with if it weren't for observing the same in the wild
many many times.

I think we still haven't figured out what all the unintended consequences from
technology are going to be, and I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't end up
seeing a sharp decline in the birth rate among whites in the US to go along
with the increase in younger deaths. Not just because of the consequences of
social isolation on mental health, but because the lack of social
connectedness that exists today makes it almost impossible to actually
procreate.

~~~
minikites
>remained single most of my life despite my other successes

I think the media has a role to play here too, the idea that you need romantic
love in order to be successful or complete is a toxic one.

Edit: a lot of replies to my comment are misinterpreting what I'm saying as
"romance is a new idea invented by the media" when all I said is that it's
possible to have a complete and successful life without romance.

~~~
lmm
Interestingly that's a lot less the case in Japanese media IME. E.g. _Honey
and Clover_ concludes (spoilers) with Hagu deciding to pursue her art instead
of a romantic relationship, which I can't imagine happening in a western movie
or tv show.

~~~
paulcole
Gilmore Girls ended this way.

------
baron816
All these problems (as the author mentions) are closely related to lower rates
of social connectedness. This is obviously a huge problem, probably the
biggest problem in the advanced world, yet it seems to be mostly ignored. My
company, Krewe ([https://www.gokrewe.com](https://www.gokrewe.com)), is
addressing it by trying to make it really easy for people to make a new group
of friends in their neighborhood and become connected with their local
community, but I really think other start ups should try to address the issue
of loneliness and (real) social connectedness in the world.

~~~
cousin_it
Imagine an old depressed person who needs a daily dose of human empathy, just
like everyone else, but can't give anything in return. Can your startup help
such a person? I'm with the other commenter, this is a societal problem. To
make even a small dent, we need an army of volunteers with calliagnosia or
Williams syndrome, or something even more drastic...

~~~
baron816
I don't know for sure if it's possible to use an app to help those kinds of
people, but I honestly believe that it doesn't take much more than a
comfortable environment and convenient access to people to bring them
together. I'm at least giving it a shot.

~~~
cousin_it
Bringing depressed people together doesn't help them. They need attention from
non-depressed people, who abandoned them for the freedom of modernity. Solving
this problem won't be win-win, so a startup won't help. Just like you can't
make a startup to redistribute money from rich people to poor people. It's a
task for charity or government.

~~~
baron816
I'm not aiming to bring depressed people together. I'm aiming to bring
_people_ together, depressed or not.

I think no matter who you are, going from a situation where you know no or few
people who live close to you, to one where you suddenly know and have access
to people who are within walking distance would make a huge difference on your
life. Will that solve all of a depressed person's problems? I don't know, but
I think it could go a long way towards helping them. Access, in my opinion, is
the main issue here. That's what I'm working on.

~~~
minikites
Another thing to consider: Why are they lonely? Maybe they're new in town,
maybe they're socially awkward, maybe they've been ostracized from previous
groups because they're a sociopath. What happens when you bring a lonely
person seeking validation to meet a manipulative sociopath?

~~~
baron816
If you go about you life refusing to meet people because you're afraid you're
going to meet a sociopath, then you're going to be awfully lonely.
Fortunately, most mature adults are pretty easy to get along with. Yeah,
everyone's had a bad experience meeting people here and there. But that's just
part of living.

~~~
minikites
I agree, but I'm talking about a situation that could be dangerous for a
lonely person who doesn't know any better. A mature adult could recognize the
danger but an awkward, sheltered person could easily be taken advantage of by
a skilled manipulator.

------
TheLilHipster
I've been working corporate IT for 4 years now.

I'm quite attractive and analytically intelligent, but lack social and
emotional intelligence (always been a loner due to childhood circumstances).

I feel alienated, I can't relate to others in this rat race. The constant dick
waving and competition driven by social media, it's just such a turnoff.

Without motivation or passion for games like I used to, life feels empty.
Suicide is my wholehearted plan when this company goes under, it just seems
like the reasonable, logical end.

This rant is more of an anecdotal story, take from it what you will - in
short, I can relate to this article.

~~~
temp11813367
All people have value. You have more value than your job, no matter how
annoying your colleagues may be sometimes.

If you are considering self-harm or suicide as an option for you, please reach
out for advice or help. Many people have been through similar situations and
found the advice of others helpful.[1]

I find that there is little wisdom in the world I like to quote, but here is
some:

"And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life,
keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is
still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."[2]

[1]1-800-273-8255

[2][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata)

------
simonbarker87
Not the main focus of the article but I've been wondering lately why Japan is
considered to have done poorly over the last 30 years economically when a lot
of the big multi national brands that are very popular all over the world
during that period are Japanese.

I'm not an economist (or Japanese) but from the outside when you can list
Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Suburu, Shimano, Nintendo, Hitachi, Yamaha, Sega
and Murata among your country's well known brands it seems odd that you would
be considered a poorly performing economy for so long.

Can anyone share some insight?

~~~
logicchains
Because for some reason many commentators find it perfectly reasonable to use
absolute GDP growth as a metric for comparing Japan to America, ignoring the
fact that America's population is growing at around 3% while Japan's
population growth is around 0% or negative (which means all things being equal
one'd expect America's GDP growth to be around 3% higher). In terms of GDP
growth per capita, which is the metric that actually matters when comparing
standard of living, Japan hasn't done so badly.

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/09/05/japan-
is-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/09/05/japan-is-one-of-
the-best-performing-economies-of-the-last-decade/#4ee7c8622b20)

~~~
nabla9
Japanese government debt to GDP ratio is 229%. Japanese government has kept
lights on with 15 years of constant deficit.

Fortunately most of this debt is internal and in local currency (no fear of
hyperinflation). But Japanese are getting old. In a few years Japanese
insurance companies and Japanese savers turn from net buyers of government
debt and stocks into net sellers.

It's interesting to see what happens then.

~~~
nojvek
US has a good stream of immigrants coming in. Last I heard immigrating to
Japan is a lot tougher. I wonder why the Japanese govt isn't opening the gates
up to keep the population growth of young people at a steady level

------
distances
One kind of a record in Finland was a man deceased for six years before anyone
noticed. He had already mummified in his bed when found. Even the landlord
didn't ask after him, as the rent was automatically paid by social services
for this whole time.

There's also an English Wikipedia page of the case at
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunula_mummy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunula_mummy).

~~~
stevekemp
Sadly this happens elsewhere in the world too although the case I remember was
"only" dead for two years:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Vincent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Vincent)

Having just moved to Finland I'm less believing of the stereotype that Finnish
people as a whole are insular and isolated, but I think there are always going
to be agoraphobic, depressed, or otherwise very isolated individuals in any
country.

~~~
distances
I think the stereotype is partly due to the climate. The rainy autumns and
long winters simply make one stay inside a lot more. As a small compensation,
the summertime in Finland is super bright, lively, and active.

------
eva1984
Why US is different from all the other countries in the charts? If author's
hypothesis is right, that it is mainly about declining of economic status, I
cannot see why other western countries would not follow a similar pattern.

And from the chart, US's (whites) death rates takes off starting from late
90s, where the economy was doing great, while other countries' death rates
keep declining even during great recession.

~~~
simonbarker87
An article on HN last week discussed the idea of a class of people called the
Unnecessariat
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11765581](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11765581))
where a large swatch of people no longer have a place in society thanks to
declining manufacturing jobs (and potentially the automation of farming) in
the middle of America and as such these people have been left to die by the
state as they are surplus to requirements in the modern economy. This is less
of a factor in European countries potentially because they are geographically
smaller, have a lower population and more left/socialist leaning that the US.

~~~
distances
The Unnecessariat also linked to a Washington Post article
([http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/04/08/we-
dont...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/04/08/we-dont-know-
why-it-came-to-this)) describing the life and death of one of those who died
too young, in rural Oklahoma. A good read, while of course so very sad that we
can't see a solution to this phenomenon.

~~~
simonbarker87
Read that one as well from the link. Both those articles combines for a very
sad hour of reading. Reminded a little of the The Unexotic Underclass[1] - not
totally the same but both areas of society not necessarily benefiting from
advances in technology.

[1] [http://miter.mit.edu/the-unexotic-underclass/](http://miter.mit.edu/the-
unexotic-underclass/)

------
sickbeard
Not surprising since our society is changing the way we interact. It used to
be you went to church or married, without a replacement for those (online
gaming doesn't count) you end up alone and invisible to those in your
immediate vicinity.

------
DanielBMarkham
I interact with dozens of people daily. I tell jokes, I listen to their
feelings, I applaud their conquests, I mourn their losses.

On the internet.

You think any of those people are going to miss me if I'm gone.

Kinda sad, really.

~~~
Morgawr
As somebody who's had a dear internet friend die, let me tell you that yes,
we'd miss you if you're gone!

I was (and still am) part of a tight community of people on IRC and one day we
realized a guy in our group hadn't said anything for almost a month. He'd
always been the quiet type of person who sometimes would go for a few days or
even a week without saying anything, but it was really weird for us. These are
all people I've been interacting with for years every day, we do know a lot
about each other (although to varying degrees). We knew about this guy's name
and some circumstantial social network presence, so we started to investigate
and we eventually found out he had passed.

We all mourned him, and to this day still I regret the fact that it took us a
month to realize he wasn't with us anymore (we initially thought he had gone
on vacation, since it was summer).

In a few months it's going to be the 2nd anniversary of his death and we plan
to write up something within our community to remember him, just like last
year.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
Yes. Exactly this.

If you're communicating with somebody on a regular basis in person, and they
die? You mourn, you send flowers. Hell, you might even go to the funeral home,
even if it was in another town.

If it's online? You can go weeks or months and be clueless. And then when you
do find out, you feel like you were robbed of something. Something important.

~~~
Verdex
I had a real life friend die when I was away at college. Apparently everyone
else knew even though they were away at college as well. Came back one week
too late and found out I had missed the funeral by a few days.

I think the problem isn't whether or not your friendship is online, but
whether or not it's advertised sufficiently to the next of kin and other
relevant social networks.

------
marak830
I was actually just talking to my wife today about a zenbo. I'm waiting for
information (signed up for the developer program), but it seems good from the
videos I saw (heh huge grain of salt here, perhaps a whole stack).

I like the idea of a mobile video equipped assistant with voice recognition
that can contact us in an emergency, and their pretty happy with tech so I
don't think we would have a problem convincing them(especially if I an code an
app for them and their grand children to communicate easily).

[https://zenbo.asus.com](https://zenbo.asus.com)

------
onecooldev24
Just saying, if prostitution was legal these lonely males would at least have
some sort of pleasure.

~~~
twoquestions
Funny you mention that, there was a story a few weeks back (damned if I can
find it now) where Japanese people pay someone to hang out with them for a
while. Not prostitution, just hanging out at a bar or something!

One thing I found striking, was when they do the customary handshake (which
signals a bit more familiarity in Japan than it does in the US), the clients
literally sometimes cry as they've not touched another human being for years!

~~~
joncrocks
[http://www.afar.com/magazine/the-incredibly-true-story-of-
re...](http://www.afar.com/magazine/the-incredibly-true-story-of-renting-a-
friend-in-tokyo)

------
sbardle
There was a recent study into the male suicide rate in Northern Ireland. It
has boomed since the end of the Troubles. Historically, war has given men a
sense of belonging. But it's not a great trade-off. The church can in theory
be a good place to build social cohesion, but in the UK it is mired in
cultural politics, so many people choose to avoid it.

~~~
Bartweiss
The premature death rate (drugs, alcohol, suicide) among white, midwestern
_women_ in the US is really interesting to me.

There are a lot of pretty convincing theories about male death rates and how
they're tied to conflict, demonstrations of courage, and clear purpose. I'd
never heard the Ireland result, but it doesn't shock me. Obviously some of
this is gender-agnostic, like sense of community, but some of it doesn't seem
to be; there's a reason that young, unemployed men are the largest risk factor
for social instability.

Given all that, it's intriguing to see that what's going wrong in the American
heartland is affecting women at least as strongly as men. A lot of the easy
answers (unemployment, worsened employment, lack of education) are all things
that have mostly changed to the detriment of men (they might be better or
worse for women, but we care about recent change and that would imply
declining results for men). So that drives me into suspicions that this isn't
something we can handwave with "construction took a downturn" or "bad
warehouse jobs" \- there seems to be a broader anomie transcending those
simple problems.

------
christudor
For those that are interested in this kind of thing, there was a fantastic
radio programme on BBC Radio 4 just the other day on depression in Japan:
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07cv0y4](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07cv0y4)

------
geodel
Though I am not as disconnected to modern economic realities but as I approach
40s the thought of nature and purpose of my work worries me. I also do not
have much social connections outside work and increasingly at work too. I
guess in next 10 years I may find myself in similar predicament.

------
known
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori)
is a social/cultural/psychological phenomenon

------
further_tech
Startups cannot do a thing.

Startups cannot change the fact people abandon their elderly parents. They'll
just make it worse.

Startups cannot make people less egotistical or make them think about the
other. They'll just make it worse.

Startups cannot take the existential anxiety and anger from you. They'll just
make it worse.

~~~
BEEdwards
WTF are you on?

In no way do I think startups are a panacea for the ailments of society, but
you do realize that they are made up of people?

People can do all the things that you list and more.

~~~
dang
> _WTF are you on?_

Comments like this break the HN guidelines. Please post civilly and
substantively, or not at all.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html)

------
further_tech
Your argument is dominated by pragmatism, which often obfuscates what religion
is all about.

Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of
religious people. You could gather just as many atheists and the response
wouldn't be the same.

EDIT: I'm not saying an atheist community would be _WORSE_ than Christianity.

I'm saying it would be _DIFFERENT_ from the Christian one.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
>Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of
religious people

You don't give athiests and agnostics enough credit. Religion is not required
for morals and community values.

~~~
further_tech
At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc.

Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this
way.

IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular
values" and find a community around it.

EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by
fraternity, equality, goodness.

I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. Something must be aspired for and
desired in social interactions. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians",
it has nothing to do with them.

If you cannot understand that, I'm not a "delusional idiot"; you are just
ignorant.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _I 'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. I'm well aware of "hypocritical
> Christians", it has nothing to do with them._

No true Scotsman!

~~~
further_tech
No. Please read more intelligently.

I didn't use it to refer to "true Christians", but as an ontological
description of Christianity.

~~~
Avshalom
I believe you'll find christianity to be largely defined by the Nicene Creed
and/or Apostles' Creed, which is to say defined by believing in Christ.

