
Ask HN:  "Dumbing yourself down" around your peers? - ilitirit
To what extent do you do this and why?  How has it affected you, and your relationships with people?<p>I've been doing it my whole life (I'm 30) because I felt that it would be easier to fit in with most people.  So when I hear people confidently repeat urban myths like "we only use 10% of our brains", or "you'll drown if you don't eat an hour before swimming" etc, I don't bother trying to explain why I think they're wrong.  Some people take it too personally (because of their ego, perhaps), and if they think you do it too often they tend to avoid your company for various reasons.  Then there are times I avoid discussion of a topic completely because it tends to happen at a very superficial level or from a very narrow perspective (maybe because of things like lack of understanding or confirmation bias).  I find that when I try to expand on certain areas of discussion I just get blank stares.  So I usually just stick to topics like gossip, sport, women, cars, or I let other people do most of the talking.  Obviously all individuals (and my relationships with them) are different to a degree, but these are some of the things I tend to see and do.<p>Anyway, I'm 30 now and I think "dumbing myself down" (at least on an intellectual level) has really taken it's toll on me.  I never really had a big problem with managing relationships with people but it's getting to the point where I find conversations with my friends unbearable.  eg.  Last night I was on my phone reading HN and reddit while a group of us were in a lounge at some club (we had just come from a strip-club).  I've vented occasionally about how I felt about this to my mom and she always says I should get new friends.  The problem is that part of trying to fit in is emulating the behaviour of your peers.  When I was younger, I was hung out with the street-thug type (avoided crime and drugs though).  Then I left that for the clubbing and partying scene (took me a while to adjust).  After leaving college I found there are very few people with my interests and lifestyle.  They usually tend to fall into one group or the other.  To put it simply, the one group is smart but boring, the other group is exciting but being around them is a mind-numbing experience.  I've tried having two sets of friends but it didn't work out that well.  I could also try changing my social circles again but where to next?  And I don't really feel like changing my lifestyle again.  Perhaps balance is the key, but finding people with the right balance is not that easy.<p>In the meantime I've resorted back to my (unhealthy) hacker nature.  Dark bedroom, bright monitor, and 20 tabs open in a browser.<p>Anyone else going/been through something similar?  How do you cope/are you coping?
======
patio11
If you're consistently the smartest person in the room, you probably need one
of two things: new friends or a reality check. Possibly both.

The best advice I ever got about picking friends was that you should hang out
with the people you want to be like. In your case, you seem to not want to go
directly from a strip club to a social establishment and get crunked. Well,
there is a fairly simple solution to that...

(UrbanDictionary tells me my usage of "crunked" is wrong. This is what I get
for not spending enough time around people who are simultaneously drunk and
stoned, I guess?)

~~~
ilitirit
> In your case, you seem to not want to go directly from a strip club to a
> social establishment and get crunked.

I don't mind the partying, but even in a club, a lounge is usually more
intimate and people tend to strike up conversations more easily. If a few
people out of the group do it it's easy just to say "fuck this bullshit let's
party!!!" and you can be relatively sure that the others will agree and the
conversation dies. There are times though that people just want to relax and
have "serious" discussion (especially if your life revolves around partying).
And it's usually these times that I just want to turn off.

[edit] Oh and in case you were wondering, I don't usually go to strip clubs.
One of my friends who owns a club was invited to check the place out and a few
of us tagged along.

------
DenisM
It's funny how a simple "I find most people intellectually boring, what to
do?" got a lot of highly up-voted "get off of your high horse, smarty-pants"
replies. I suppose the first lesson here is not to let people know you think
lowly of them. Otherwise they get angry and stuff, silly bipedals.

You would have had much different replies if you rephrased your question to
"Hey, HN is full of great people with interests and values similar to mine. I
feel like I found my long-lost solumate, only several hundred of them at once.
How do I find / build similar community in real life, so that I can share both
bar hopping and code-hacking?".

:-)

~~~
ilitirit
> I suppose the first lesson here is not to let people know you think lowly of
> them.

You are absolutely correct, at least from my perspective (although I don't
think lowly of other people in the way you might mean). If possible, I'll edit
my original post with my thoughts on this matter.

> You would have had much different replies if you rephrased your question

I know. The problem is that HN represents a small part of my interests, so
it's unlikely that we share the same interests or values (especially
considering I'm from a 3rd world country - I don't expect that many of you
guys can relate to violence and poverty in the way that I can). The reason I
chose HN is because I was hoping for responses with more signal than noise. I
guess another lesson here is to choose your audience your wisely. And of
course be mindful of how you address them.

~~~
DenisM
>> be mindful of how you address them.

Yep, that's what I was getting at. I have a pet interest in "what makes a good
presentation" and made an observation that good presentation is the one that
makes audience feel good about themsleves. This especially jumps at me when
watching TED videos. Funny how that works.

I think you did a good job describing what you do not want. The next step for
you is to put at least as much effort into writing down what is it that you DO
want. Start with a taxonomy of your interests and see if you can find patterns
and groups within. For example here's my list: 1) macro economics & history
1a) corporate governance 2) relational and near-relational databases 3) ultra
scale-out systems 3a) synchronization problems 4) mobile devices 5) maps and
navigation 6) fine dining 7) psychology of irrational behavior 8) computer
hardware 9) style (clothing, interior, articulation) 10) study of sleep 11)
study of excersize 12) science of making a good presentation 13) demogrpahics
& behavior of groups 14) runnign my own business 15) web technologies (webkit,
jscript etc) 16) functional languages 17) epistemology

With interests like these there is no way I will find anyone who is into the
same stuff as me. But grouping things together I can address some of my
interests at my day job (MS SQL Server), some at my startup project and some
at various online communities. There are some topics where I am all by myself.
It gets really tough at the overlap areas, e.g. I am deeply convinced that
source control problem, sync problem, database problems and ultra scale-out
systems are of the same field and need to be studied in concert but I have a
hard time getting heard with it. So does it work for me overall? Mostly. The
people I hang out with are sharing at least some of my interests so it's never
as bad for me as it is for you. However few times a year I have some
outlnadish idea, interpretation or a vision that I have no one to discuss
with. Generally people shrug it off or get a friendly laugh at my expense. :-)
It does feel kinda lonely when that happens. I don't have an answer here,
either.

------
DanielBMarkham
People are social animals. I think as analytical people we forget this aspect
of our humanity a lot.

So you need to feed that social part of yourself without doing, time-consuming
and mostly pointless things, like getting drunk with the guys and watching
naked women dance. If you dig naked women dancing, get HBO. Or just surf the
net.

As a consultant, I go through phases of alone down-and-working hacking, when
I'm not on a big contract, and working full-time with other people trying to
help them when I am on a big contract.

I've found that both of these lifestyles have something positive and negative
about them. I need social interaction, yet I crave just doing my own thing and
being left alone also. I've found that since I don't value my social needs, I
sometimes end up taking just whatever comes along, instead of actively
planning. This spontaneity is cool when you're 20. But it gets less and less
cool the older you get, for some reason. (Usually after you end up with a
decade of spending your free time and you've in the same spot, with the same
people, doing the same things you were ten years ago.)

In the past, this has sometimes led to be hanging out with people who are, or
at least think they are, exciting. If I were you, I'd find something bigger
than yourself to believe in and get involved with it. Church, Boy Scouts,
civic groups, environmental groups, politics -- something that you find both
intellectually stimulating and where you have a lot of social interaction.
Make yourself do this, because you will not think that it will work until you
actually do it.

And give up the I'm-so-smart routine. Trust me, you're an idiot like the rest
of us, just in a different way. So you have lots factual recall ability? Aside
from a promising future as a game show contestant, who cares? People with a
great recall ability can be some of the most annoying people on the planet to
deal with. Trust me, I'm one of them! Meet people where they are, and relate
to them in an honest manner that you both can handle. Sounds like you've got a
big of overly-done self importance thing going on. Once again, finding
something more important than you and humbly trying to contribute to it could
make you more of a person that _really_ is smart and interesting and exciting
people, like myself, would want to hang out with. (grin)

Life is about you putting stuff into it, not sitting on your ass waiting to
see what comes out of it and then criticizing what you get by default. Sorry
to rag on you so much -- you probably don't deserve it, but geesh, you're 30.
Get a better attitude and lifestyle already.

~~~
russell
Agreed. You (the OP) need to be socialized. :-) There is a phenomenon I call
the "Engineering Dance", where engineers and similar types go through a kind
dominance ritual on first meeting, probing to see who is the most expert. This
doesn't work in most social situations; most people dont like it.

My SO has a masters in math and a minor in CS, but we dont talk about my work
much at all. She's a painter; we talk about painting. I enjoy it because I'm
learning a lot. I suggest finding a nontechnical interest and become good at
it: music, art, literature. You dont have to be an artist or musician, just
knowledgeable.

Enlist a woman in the reclamation project. Their social skills really are
better than ours, especially the extroverts. Dont look for a GF to do this.
Enlist a sister or friend. The two of you can throw a barbecue or the like for
the expanded set of friends.

Most people have a socially adept friend. Use said friend for introductions.

~~~
stcredzero
Let me say: I think that getting a girlfriend who will up and tell you when
you are being an ass (later on, in private) is one of the best things you can
do!

"Engineering Dance" -- Guilty as charged! Brilliant name for it.

~~~
russell
I definitely agree on the girlfriend, but from my experience that's even more
difficult than learning social graces. It takes a perceptive woman to realize
that underneath is a really good guy that just needs some help. Young women
are often as dense in their own way as hackers. It took me years and the
experience of a bad marriage to become acceptable to a good woman.

~~~
stcredzero
Agreed, it took me years of being a jerk to women plus the good fortune of an
ex turning into a friend and smacking me with the truth.

My solution also involved perception, but on my part. I was able to spot the
potential in a quiet, wallflowery girl at a party. Now I am blessed with a a
very sweet, patient, intelligent, perceptive, and demurely sexy girlfriend.

Another piece of advice -- all you nerdy guys out there who check off all the
races except "African American" on dating site preferences -- do yourself a
favor and stop it. There's lots of really cute nerdy gals out there who just
happen to have a bit more melanin.

------
RiderOfGiraffes
I felt like that until I was 19. I joined Mensa, and found people who loved
puzzles, knowledge, intelligence and discussion.

When I moved town and did my PhD I found the local Mensans complete prats, but
the university gave me the stimulation I needed.

You need to find people with whom you can be yourself, but equally, you need
to learn how to get on with people in general. I learned a lot from Dale
Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." It's almost a manual for
how to problem-solve your way through the challenge of social interaction.
Recognise that others have needs and desires, and sometimes that means you
shouldn't try to educate them. There are times when it's of no value.

Recognise too that sometimes others are just as smart as you, but in different
fields of expertise. Learn to learn from them.

Stay true to yourself, learn to interact with people generally, respect people
as individuals, ...

Seek out those with whom you can be yourself.

They do exist.

~~~
pj
That's the trick! Find something interesting about people. People want to be
appreciated and /almost/ everyone has something to appreciate. As an
intelligent person, your job isn't to be more interesting than other people,
it is to find the interesting things in others.

It's like playing games. Over time, if you always win, people stop wanting to
playing with you. Find games they can win and lose frequently until you win
all the time then find a new game to play with them together.

~~~
wallflower
"The reason I've managed to make the connections I desired is that I'm
fascinated by people's stories. Beneath the small-talk surface, every life is
a fascinating novel, so I always follow the suggestion from Proverbs 4:7,
"With all thy getting get understanding." This directive means stand under, in
the relatively lowly position of student, and let whomever we're trying to
understand occupy the high ground of teacher."

Be the student. Let someone teach you.

From a sex/relationship advice article but very true.

[http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/articleoprahmatch.asp...](http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/articleoprahmatch.aspx?cp-
documentid=12212194&page=0)

------
jnovek
Personally, I try not to say things like "dumbing down". It's presumptuous to
assume that I'm smarter than other people; I don't need that kind of ego
boost.

I tend to think of it as people having different interests. Many people have a
familiarity with celebrity gossip that rivals my familiarity with programming.
They're just choosing to use their brainpower in a different way.

I'm sure many people on HN disagree, but that's how I see the world.
Intelligence neutral.

I choose to hang out with people who are interested in things that I am. I
have a natural filter -- I continue to talk about things that I think are
interesting in all company, and when conversation moves in a direction that I
don't like, I disengage. That's not to say that I don't try to take an
interest in things outside of my realm of experience, but people who know me
learn pretty quickly that if they talk about football, I'm going to get glassy
eyed. Or worse, start talking about the use of graph theory in tournament
scheduling.

~~~
ilitirit
> Personally, I try not to say things like "dumbing down"

I know exactly what you mean. That's why I put in quotes. It just makes it
easier to talk about.

Usually, "dumbing myself down" in my case means suppressing knowledge that I
have. I can't fault other people for not knowing things that I do because as
you say different people have different interests, and beside that I spend
much more time on the internet that what they do, so I'm more up to date with
current affairs than they are.

But whether you take "dumbing down" to mean suppression of knowlege, skills or
intelligence, the end result is what I was referring to.

> I continue to talk about things that I think are interesting in all company,
> and when conversation moves in a direction that I don't like, I disengage

This is part of what I mean. Maybe other people have a higher tolerance level
(or maybe I do it _too_ much) but this kind of behaviour has really taken it's
toll on me.

~~~
jacoblyles
If someone say "we only use 10% of our brains", do you really view it as
"dumbing yourself down" if you hold back a long lecture about the actual
structure of the human brain? If so, I would say you simply lack social
skills. This is not a bad judgement on you in itself, not everybody was born
with equal endowment in social skills, and they can be learned. However, the
way in which you ascribe your lack of ability to get along with your fellow
human beings to your much vaster intelligence is a little ugly.

My default instinct is to feel bad for socially inept people, because I have
had a good deal of social problems myself. However, I often find that
socially-inept people are simply ugly on the inside, even after I give them
the benefit of the doubt. Walking around making constant negative judgments
about the intelligence of your peers is hardly a good way to get along.

~~~
ilitirit
> However, the way in which you ascribe your lack of ability to get along with
> your fellow human beings to your much vaster intelligence is a little ugly.

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough, but I get along with other people
very well. People like being around me for various reasons. Don't get me wrong
- I am fully aware that there is much more to life than intellectual
stimulation and in no way do I base my relationships with people on this idea
alone. I'm just talking about one outcome of managing my relationship with
others, and I would like to find out how many other people have gone through
this (or are going through this) and how they deal with it. I find that self-
improvement is one of the first steps in managing relations with others.
Because at the end of the day, it is _my_ problem, not theirs.

It's difficult to convey your precise meaning when it comes to interpersonal
relationships. You can try very hard to explain what you mean but there will
invariably be some ambiguity (it took me a few days to figure out how I should
verbalize this to HN - in the end I decided to avoid analysis-paralysis). In
many cases, the best one can do is hope that what you say strikes a chord with
people in similar situations (hence the opening and closing sentences). That
more people are commenting on individual pieces of my post rather than sharing
there own experiences could be an indication that there aren't many people
that can relate to this.

Whatever the case, I am grateful for the responses.

~~~
jacoblyles
You have an unhealthy view of other people. You're asking "how can I get along
with people who are too dumb to hold my interest?". That implies a negative
value judgment of them, even though you backpedal and justify yourself by
claiming that you seek self-improvement. Learn to enjoy the unique positive
aspects of other people and you will be much happier.

My ex couldn't follow my academic work, but she was a writer with a rich inner
life. That was interesting to me, and we got along. If I wrote her off because
she couldn't follow complexity theory, I would have missed out on a good
relationship.

Personally, I had many problems socializing. I used to hate parties, clubs,
large gatherings, etc. I would get bored. However, I value other people and I
value having good social skills. So I bought books and worked at it. The
challenge of being good at social situations turns out to be interesting
enough to hold my attention.

~~~
dadoes
What books did you feel helped you?

------
IsaacSchlueter
Be the person you wish you were. Anyone who doesn't like it is not a friend
you need. It is absolutely possible to have a very active social life and also
have intellectually stimulating friends.

I have long tried to make a point to _never_ dumb myself down for the sake of
others. The people it scares away are the people that I _want_ to scare away,
because they offer nothing to me and I probably offer nothing to them. And the
people who appreciate my kind of intelligence are the people I want to
associate with.

If it feels dishonest, it probably is.

Edit: Also, move to Silicon Valley. It's full of people who like smarts.

------
radu_floricica
Been there. But I find I haven't felt that particular need for quite a while.
I guess what helped is that in the last year I started to read a lot. I made a
"never look at the price" policy when it comes to books, and used amazon to
the max. I still have a backlog of 2-3 books, and usually one in the mail
(also in a not very developed country, mail takes about a month).

I can only guess why it works, or why simply reading HN or articles isn't
enough. Reading a book is usually harder, more immersive and, if the author is
good, usually feels like a dialog.

What books exactly probably depends on yourself. I started with The Black
Swan, by Nicholas Nassim Taleb, and it really opened my taste to good books.
Richard Dawkins's older books, Marvin Minsky, Hernando de Soto, Jared Diamond,
they all deserve to be read in full.

I also caught up with some professional books I somehow missed, like The
Mythical Man-month or Peopleware, and I found a fascination for cognitive
psychology with The Wisdom of Crowds and Predictably Irrational.

Yup. Thinking back I no longer wonder why. Each book was a very long
conversation with a person smarter then myself. Exactly what I needed.

------
edw519
You may not like my answer, but you asked, so here goes:

I think the only problem is with your attitude. Like ilitirit, I hate the
expression, "dumbing down". I am probably similar in nature to you, and I have
never had this problem, much less even thought about it.

At the bookstore over coffee, my SO reads about design & fashion while I read
about Galois and number theory. So what? (I just have to remember to nod in
agreement to questions like, "Aren't those window treatments beautiful?") When
people talk about sports, I don't tune out; in fact, I enjoy a little football
and basketball between coding sessions.

OTOH, NASCAR = for(i=0;i<800;i++){turnLeft()};

I don't watch much TV, don't enjoy gossip, and don't recognize many
celebrities, but I can still smile and nod in most conversations. At the very
least, I can usually politely direct them to something a little more
interesting.

Don't forget, you're human before you're a hacker, so being among other
people, no matter who they are, is important to your well being. Don't think
of "dumbing down", think of "diversifying among potential users of my code".
So get out of that bedroom and join the rest of us. You'll be fine.

------
pookleblinky
WWSGD?

What would Summer Glau do?

Dumbing yourself down is like hacking off a foot to fit in with a leper
colony. It's a change that'll be hard to reverse later on, whether you want to
or not.

------
helium
Don't dumb yourself down. People will sense that you are not being yourself
and you will be miserable anyway. I have made the same mistake myself in past
and I have realised that often times people that you consider less
'intellectual' are capable of very stimulating conversation if given the right
subject to talk about.

The key is to not be condescending. People don't mind smart people, but they
hate being made to feel stupid. If you have to correct someone, do it in a
kind, diplomatic matter.

People don't always have to be super smart to be interesting, even less
intelligent folks have the ability to teach you something if you really show
an interest.

I myself would rather spend most my time with 'boring', real live people than
with a web browser in a darkened room.

~~~
gfodor
Yes, its all in approach. Two examples in regards to the 10% brain thing:

Someone: "You know, you only use 10% of your brain!"

You: "Actually, that has been debunked forever now. If you had just searched
on Google you'd have known this. It's totally false, you use your entire brain
yada yada yada."

vs.

You: "Yeah, someone I know told me that before and I thought it sounded really
weird, so I googled around and found out that it turns out it's not actually
entirely true! Pretty crazy, eh? It turns out, you use your entire brain yada
yada"

The former is "you are dumb, if you used the internet or was as smart as me
you'd know better" The latter is "hey friend, let me tell you a story about
how I found out about how that's not true. You could have found this out too,
but I'll save you the time and tell you what I uncovered."

More succinctly "You're dumb, I'm smart" vs "Check this out, friend."

------
cromulent
I believe that I can relate. I have a deep interest in various permanent and
ephemeral topics that I simply have no idea who I would discuss them with. I
am far more interested in these than most front pages of the newspaper, but
the wonderful people who are my friends wouldn't sit still for the hour or so
it would take them to get up to speed on the issue.

That's not to say I am particularly smart or anything, I'm just a specialist
in terms of my interests more than a generalist. People also fit different
amounts of thinking into each day, and I probably do more than most. That
thinking may well be of low quality, but the quantity ensures that I would
probably get blank stares from almost anyone.

So, I work on being a generalist where possible to help fit in, and I develop
the skill of tailoring my conversation content and style (and speech) to
different scenarios. That's fine for casual social situations, and great for
work, but I still yearn for someone who has read all the articles I just read
and wants to talk about them. I know from the web they are out there, but our
paths never cross.

The funny thing is, I blame RSS. I think that RSS really did enable the
computer to be a "bicycle for the mind" and that you can tell quite quickly
now in a social circle who uses RSS and who doesn't. I guess that your friends
don't. A well-stocked news reader expands your world and your interests and
your knowledge of current events so quickly, that it almost creates two
classes of people.

I have had people comment favorably on my breadth of knowledge on current
events and I almost laugh - I just skimmed a relevant article in my reader
that morning, so I happened to know what they are talking about. I guess they
are also used to "dumbing it down" for others.

I finally convinced my wife to use RSS and now we have so many more good
conversations. Her eyes glaze over quickly when I mention Tokyo Cabinet or
Wolfram|Alpha, but that just means I have to work harder to make it
interesting and relative.

~~~
ilitirit
> The funny thing is, I blame RSS.

Yeah, I can relate. I've always wondered if I would still have this problem if
my thirst for knowledge wasn't so big. I've tried introducing some of my
friends to things like StumbleUpon and reddit etc (they are somewhat
intimidated when confronted with IT terms like RSS though). Only one of them
has taken an interest, and he loves it and regularly crawls the web to learn
more about the world. Strangely enough, it is when I did this that the problem
in my original post started growing. I think my frustrations were being
suppressed subconsciously and when I realized this shared some of my
interests, it dawned on me how I missed real-world intellectual stimulation.
Like an ex crack-addict who just took another hit after years of being clean.

I am of course a realist. I don't expect to "convert" all my friends, so in
the meantime I'll just try to find ways in which to cope.

------
csomar
This is happening with me also. I'm a hacker (ok a developers) and my friends
don't understand really what the web is, so I turn to spend 98% of my time in
front of computer and avoid to go with them anywhere because their talk makes
me headaches.

However (few months ago) I did found a friend that really understand me
(although being tech-savvy) and we are projecting for the summer.

Keep searching, if in your area internet is widely used, you may find, I
already find another one (she's a girl and work as a designer) using twitter,
but not in the same city.

Be patient getting good friends need time

~~~
ilitirit
Something that I've noticed is that this usually happens in "poorer" areas.
What country are you from? I'm from South Africa, and most people down here
don't even have a computer, let alone the internet.

My friends are different though, but they don't spend as much time on the
internet as I do. There aren't any other software programmers in my group
either.

~~~
csomar
lol, i'm from the north, no here there's a lot of computers (it was a state
project to make them cheap for families at $700 or less) and internet is cheap
also ($15/month) but my friends don't understand computers, they only know how
to log on facebook :D

------
vaksel
Look for more friends, just because the rule is that one group is smart but
lame, and the other is dumb and fun, doesn't mean that there aren't people who
are both.

There are plenty of people who are smart and fun, and plenty who are dumb and
lame.

Sure you'll have to work harder to find those people, but it should be worth
it, to keep your identity

------
dazzawazza
We are all different people in different social circles. This is just how
successful humans operate. You don't behave the same way over dinner with your
parents as you are over dinner with your friends.

It seems to me you have unrealistic expectations. As you grow older you gain
many different social circles, ex college, ex work, ex town etc. What binds
you is different and what stimulates each group is different. If you seriously
can't find something stimulating about a group of people then just stop seeing
them... but remember it is also a reflection on you.

Most people offer much more then you seem to be able to extract and when
addressed properly are stimulated by challenging conversation.

------
ellyagg
My friend, you sound like my clone. I haven't really figured it out. We may
just be doomed.

~~~
ilitirit
If possible, can you explain which parts of my post resonated with you most
and how you would have put it in your own words? I'm trying to understand how
I should communicate these sort of issues to other people.

~~~
ellyagg
Like you, I've put it into words many times with my family. I have my cool
friends, but they're turned off and intimidated by intellectual conversations
and they don't have anything useful to contribute anyway. On the other hand,
my geeky friends consider some of my interests superficial.

In my dream world, I'd have friends I could go lift weights with, have a BBQ,
get dressed up, go clubbing, and talk continuation/passing style and credit
default swaps while we do it.

I don't think you should communicate these issues to other people. Which group
wouldn't be offended? It certainly won't help anything.

~~~
ilitirit
> I don't think you should communicate these issues to other people. Which
> group wouldn't be offended? It certainly won't help anything.

To an extent I can agree, but I think the internet is great for discussions
like these. I'm not particularly afraid of offending strangers, especially if
I've put in a lot of effort to avoid it, but the feedback is great in helping
me understand how people might react in the real world.

~~~
Poleris
Out of curiosity, do either of you two know what your MBTI types are? My
initial guess would be some kind of NT. Maybe ENTJ?

------
mooneater
A few years ago, I discovered there actually are circles that are truly both
very smart, and totally cool.

For example in Toronto, see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumkidz>

Previously I thought this was impossible, and I was didnt even dare hope to
find it.

But, Im no longer in TO, and yes, its hard once again to find. But I know such
people are out there!

------
nickfox
Don't ever dumb yourself down just to be accepted by people. It seems like you
have simply outgrown your friends. You are growing and becoming a different
person. That is a good thing.

I've always been the type of person who most enjoys having "deep" discussions
with one other person. You need to connect with people on a much deeper level
than you are currently doing. Don't worry, there are plenty of people like
that around. You need to go out and find them.

So... Get out of your comfort zone and start trying new things. For instance,
try swing dancing, start taking lessons. You'll find an entirely different
caliber of people at swing dances than you will in bars.

I think you are doing fine and the fact that you are concerned about this and
reaching out to others to find a solution tells me that you will most likely
find what you are looking for.

Good luck in your search and keep on learning and growing like you are doing.
It sounds like you are on a great path.

------
ConcreteBeton
You sound like you're torn between Niles & Frasier Crane and the cast of
Friends!

FWIW, I have a LOT of different interests, and I get really cheesed off by one
group of nerdy friends who are anxious to put down anything popular but am
similarly frustrated by normal people who won't branch out of their comfort
zone and look at the world through a different lens.

I'm not a computer buff by trade or training but I suspect this is a problem
that has nothing to do with intelligence. It often seems to have more to do
with not wanting to admit to knowing/not knowing about something so as not to
appear too 'different'. I think it's a rut one can get out of through
travelling/ moving/working somewhere new, because being suddenly forced to
make new friends as an adult can encourage honesty and a re-evaluation of what
is important.

Good luck, however you choose to tackle this problem.

------
anshul
> So when I hear people confidently repeat urban myths like "we only use 10%
> of our brains", or "you'll drown if you don't eat an hour before swimming"
> etc, I don't bother trying to explain why I think they're wrong.

Why would you do a thing like that? I just go to extraordinary lengths to do
the exact opposite... correct people all the time. Over the ages, it has
resulted in a lot of nicknames, sarcasm but yes... a group of friends who
accept me for what I truly am and with whom I truly enjoy the time I spend.
And I wouldn't have it any other way.

I really don't understand why would you do a thing like that? Why hide what
you are? Who cares what others think? I say jump right in... let them know
what you think, pitch your ideas, debate... what's the worse that could
happen? You would be back to the dark bedroom, bright monitor, 20 tabs, right?

------
eugenejen
I just think it is more important to be authenticate with myself and people
who knows me.I do not to dumb myself down if I am really smart. And I know
there are chances that someone is smarter than I am or learned more domain
knowledge than I have. I need to be modest but I need to hold my own ground.
Otherwise, I will be a big coward toward my true self.

I did not try to fit in any group. If I don't feel comfortable. I leave. I am
a pretty loner and I take it.

I hold very low opinions toward a person who can't be authenticate about
himself/herself. When I feel a person are just a fake person and I just move
away. IMHO, faking wastes precious resources in the world. I don't want myself
to be someone wasting other people's time and emotion. And I don't want people
like that to waste my time and emotion.

------
gurtwo
This reminds me of a sentence by Arthur Schopenhauer: "... one's choice in
this world does not go much beyond solitude on one side and vulgarity on the
other".

~~~
jjs
It's important to make time for both! >:)

------
unconed
I've felt similarly, but I found that part of the problem was that I was
seeking acceptance and participation from my friends, even though I was
occupying myself with increasingly specific and esoteric things. Part of the
solution was just caring less what other people think, and mentioning to them
only the pretty/nifty/cool/engaging things that I work on, not the theoretical
stuff.

Another good tip is that, with some time and effort, you can largely shape the
kind of new friends you meet, especially today with the web. You could
organise some informal gettogethers, interest groups, lectures, etc. Providing
free beer helps a lot. Leverage your workplace, your school, your local
watering hole. Hunt for people who are doing the same things you do. Blog
about what you do, so others can find it. These days, you can automate a lot
of this just by setting up search feeds on Google, Twitter, etc. Even on
something as noisy as Twitter, there's someone talking about fluid dynamics,
linguistics, philosophy, etc. Find them, see what places they link to, and
join their communities so you can find out where they hang out in real life.
The trick is to not treat the online world as a separate place where the "cool
people hang out", but simply the medium through which "cool people hook up".
Most of the people you want to hang out with are in the same boat as you:
bored, alone and online.

The fact is that you are less likely to meet someone truly interested in your
pursuits than just regular 'nice people'. Accept this, but make sure you are
ready to encounter these special people and show them, very quickly, that you
are a smart person worth getting to know and worth having in depth
conversations with.

Also, though the hacker lifestyle has its perks, it never hurts to expand your
interests to include more outdoor activities. Often you can be as intellectual
and nerdy about those as you want, without suffering the nerd penalty.

As for correcting people on urban legends: people don't like being told
they're wrong and many people enjoy urban legends for the drama and
excitement, because it gives them a story to tell. Often they don't really
care if it's true or not.

------
ChrisXYZ
My first thought upon reading your problem was, "I have friends who are smart
and fun. Why doesn't he get some of those?"

It almost sounds like you have two very black and white social circles: dry,
boring 'smart' friends, and shallow, ignorant 'fun' friends. Maybe you are too
picky and elitist, I can't say, but I've also hung around genuinely empty-
headed party types, and it is a little soul destroying. I feel your pain.

Any way you could find something more in the middle?

I know tons of people who know how to have a good time, but also have a geeky
side, if you want to call it that. They're mostly grad students in social
sciences / humanities-type subjects. I almost take it for granted most of the
people I meet are going to be fairly bright.

~~~
ilitirit
> It almost sounds like you have two very black and white social circles

Actually, I have one social circle. Maintaining two (there were 3, in fact)
was too much of a strain on my personal life. I have no doubt that if I had
chosen another group, I would have had similar problems adjusting my lifestyle
(I've been through this before, so I know).

It seems obvious to say "you should find smart AND fun people", but the big
question is "how?". In my experience it takes a while to realize that someone
meets the criteria. After all, it's not usually one thing that attracts you
to/repels you from people over time - it's patterns of behaviour, or emergent
behaviour from certain characteristics. And by the time you've recognized
these things about them (and the negatives outweigh the positives), you're
probably already friends and then you have to work on distancing yourself
depending on their their social proximity. This gets complex the feelings
aren't mutual (eg. they consider you a closer friend than you do them, or vice
versa). I know it sounds complex, but this is based on my own experiences. I'm
sure many people out there have had to deal with distancing themselves from
people.

------
sachmanb
look into "INTP" personality type if you haven't already.

the way i see it is that between people, we want to communicate ideas. in
order to communicate we have to meet at a shared context, and shared
semiotics. the way i'm writing this is not how i would talk to someone at
work. the way i talk at work is not how i would talk to my mom. the way i talk
to my mom is not how i would talk with my housemate. the way i talk about a
problem with a designer is not the way i talk about a problem with an
engineer. the way i talk about a problem with an engineer is not the way i
talk when discussing philosophy.

if you value comprehension, and you value growth, then you are in the minority
of our society - especially when it comes to comprehension. it's easier to
find people trying to win than to find people trying to comprehend. since you
value learning and growing, you will accelerate as will others like you,
beyond the understandings common in our society. your context will diverge
more so from shared contexts, simply because you are internally growing. don't
fret - just communicate what needs to be communicated. some people may not be
interested in some of the things your interested in, and others will be. run
into brilliant people with shared interests, sure it might be exciting, but
you'll still need to communicate - you'll still need to meet with words, body
language, and smiles - you're experience is entirely your own. we are all
alone, together.

------
kgc
I dumb myself down occasionally when I realize I'm making the person I'm
talking to feel bad.

I used to just keep on educating/making corrections for people until I
realized that the primary purpose of socializing in the majority of cases
isn't necessarily for communication, but for camaraderie.

Now, instead of going off on intellectual monologues, I simply ask clarifying
questions or make jokes that make us all laugh and realize the correct answer
as a group.

I usually guide other people in the group to announce the conclusions in order
to not seem like I'm picking on the target.

------
physcab
I think what is happening to you is pretty normal. My advice to you is to be
more honest with yourself and with your friendships. If your friends are
boring you change up the conversation or suggest doing something exciting. If
your friends seem dumb then keep trying to talk about intellectually
stimulating things.

If you feel like all hope is lost, get out of your bubble. Try a new activity.
Go travel for an extended period of time. You have to be fun, exciting, and
interesting yourself before you start attracting the same types of people.

------
themullet
I've dumbed myself down before, to the point where people didn't notice I was
smart. Was nice going under the radar. Tried for a while to knock down my
intelligence with heavy amounts of drug and alcohol abuse, reading crap and
not remotely pushing myself.

I developed a crazy hippy persona which allowed me to talk about crazy topics
and get away with it. Was regular on the rave scene getting the nickname of
the raving hippy.

When I'm out I won't talk about computers at all (the first rule of computer
club is you don't talk about computer club), if someone asks me what I do I'll
give a very general response. I often find myself talking about stuff I saw on
ted.com or fringe science or other crazy ideas. I actively avoid the normal
topics and try to switch the topic to something more interesting.

I like to be a social chameleon, bantering well with lots of different people.

I'm lucky with my friends and house mates, I live with A.I. programmer, a dude
with a photographic memory and a fitness instructor, it's a nice balance.
Friends wise know a lot of good people from my uni days who like to snowboard
and/or travel and are also rather smart.

Though despite being able to hold my own socially, I'm happiest when sat at my
desk, pissing around with pcs, code and learning crazy stuff from the net.
I've also stopped dumbing myself down now and I'm working on creating the best
version of myself that I can.

Guess in your situ would be tempted by a work break for 6months - 1 year. Go
find your place in the world =]

Sorry bit of a ramble =]

------
durana
I think you're looking at this problem in the wrong way. Apply some of that
intelligence of yours and try to figure out why you have to "dumb yourself
down" to have a good relationship with your friends.

Conversation is a real skill. Communicating your ideas in terms that someone
else can really understand and find interesting isn't always easy. And on the
flip side, truly understanding what someone is saying and finding value in it
for yourself isn't easy either.

------
pj
Your predicament is more common than you may think. There's a book called
"Pretending to be Normal" it's about an aspie. You may not be an aspie, but a
lot of what the author goes through and her behaviors could be lessons for
you.

[http://www.amazon.com/Pretending-Be-Normal-Aspergers-
Syndrom...](http://www.amazon.com/Pretending-Be-Normal-Aspergers-
Syndrome/dp/1853027499/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242584342&sr=8-1)

------
oz
[http://www.iwillnotdie.com/why-people-dont-like-smart-
people...](http://www.iwillnotdie.com/why-people-dont-like-smart-people/)

~~~
ilitirit
Much of what the author said on the two related blogs resonated with me:

<http://www.iwillnotdie.com/why-smart-people-fail/>
<http://www.iwillnotdie.com/why-smart-people-are-unhappy/>

He may have a somewhat controversial tone (I'm sure he received even more
flack than I did for saying "dumbing down"), but I simply "get" what he's
trying to say, because like many others I've also been there. My problem
though is not so much this - it's dealing with the frustrations that go with
wearing the "mask" for so long.

Reducing this issue to smart vs not smart simplifies talking about human
interaction, but it can also alienate many people. But one also has to
consider: Is the mere fact that one considers things to this depth a symptom
of the curse of the foreigner in Rome? Would I be less frustrated if I started
caring less about what others think? Is it possible to go through life happy
as a foreigner in Rome? I tend to think of these kinds of people end up as
miserable old lonely men (or at least that's what the media would have one
believe).

------
tonia
I would love to post a hugely insightful reply but I'm really struggling with
that.

All I can say is that I know exactly how you feel and I completely understand
your problem, which is why I find your description of your problem perfectly
clear. Either someone KNOWS what you mean or they don't. Simple as that.

From my experience, it is impossible to explain this particular "problem" to
anyone who isn't in the same situation without being accused of arrogance or
ignorance.

For me, it is the curse of being an intelligent, semi-geeky, extrovert and
intellectual young woman. I'm a bit of too many things, which means that I
don't really fit into any group. But honestly - I wouldn't have it any other
way, because I am grateful for the intensity and depth of my emotional and
intellectual life. Although I have to admit that it can be a bit lonely at
times. But then again - who doesn't feel like that sometimes?

Fortunately for me, I'm slowly learning to attract like-minded people, who
don't need an explanation. Having at least a couple of people who just "get
you" is crucial for sanity, although they don't have to be geographically
close.

------
adrianwaj
The problem is you need to find even smarter people than the smart ones you
mentioned, ideally geniuses who only hope they can meet smart and socially
able people like yourself. In the end everyone has different levels of
intelligence in different areas.

As for the engineering dance, I don't do it. If someone's got issues with
their intelligence, it's their problem, not mine.

------
lallysingh
Find people smart in things you know little about. I had years of fun with a
group deep in political theory. Then I left school and now I have to find a
new group.

But, there's a large percentage of people who just aren't intellectually
motivated. Which is fine: family, friends, and/or fun are all equally valid
motivators. When you're with them, focus on what you enjoy about what they
enjoy. E.g. if they're socially focused, focus on the social interactions you
also enjoy. Don't screw it up with geekishness.

With all that said, this is completely wrong: "The problem is that part of
trying to fit in is emulating the behaviour of your peers." NO. It's about
finding a way for all of you to get along being yourselves. I'll happily drop
some random geeky-but-mainstream jokes with my non-computer friends.

Also, you're probably going to have to hang out with multiple types of people
to get all your bases covered to get balance.

------
pixpox3
Re: The engineering dance thing.

I find that technical people, developers/hackers etc. can often be incredibly
annoying when they do this. Many also have a tendency to call other developers
idiots or constantly talk about their skills. It's really not a great way to
make people think highly of you, either professionally or socially.

------
tokenadult
As Richard Rusczyk says, "If ever you are by far the best, or the most
interested, student in a classroom, then you should find another classroom."

[http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/AoPS_R_A_Calcul...](http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/AoPS_R_A_Calculus.php)

That generalizes to how to live in adult life. Seek out the smartest people
you can find, and spend time interacting with them.

This, of course, is what I like about HN. My happiest time of social life
growing up was two years in junior high in Minnesota in which I was "tracked"
with mostly very bright fellow students. Most of the rest of my life I've been
trying to regain a social circle like that. Now I'm most of the way back to
where I was almost four decades ago, with lots of friends who are plainly very
smart, who get my jokes, and who understand my vocabulary.

------
bayareaguy
Perhaps you should check out <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperHappyDevHouse>
?

If you don't live near one you could help start one in your area.

------
ilitirit
FWIW, after reading the 40 or so comments posted so far, here are some of my
thoughts, observations and things I've learned after submitting the original
post (in no particular order):

1\. Either there are very few people on HN who can relate to this "problem"
(when I put something in quotes, it sometimes means I am doing so for the sake
of brevity ie. I understand the implications and various connotations of a
term but explaining that I do would take up to much time/space. Like now.), or
they felt more compelled to comment on aspects of my post than post their own
experiences. Both of these explanations echo what I've observed in the real
world and on other sites

2\. Intelligence is a very touch subject for many people. Many people chose to
comment on my choice of using the phrase "dumbing down". I'm still trying to
find a good choice of words that doesn't need to fill entire paragraph, and
that can adequately express what I mean. I think the audience here plays a big
role is choosing the correct phrasing.

3\. I should spend more time thinking about the examples I cite. A few people
based parts of their comments around the fact that I mentioned "strip club"
(apparently sex still sells). I don't enjoy strip clubs at all. I mentioned it
because a) it's true, b) I thought it would provide a good contrast. But more
importantly, instead of spending time agonizing over examples (I spent quite a
bit of time considering whether or not I should use the "10% of our brain"
bit), perhaps I should try to express more clearly that I'm talking about
_patterns of behaviour_ , rather than individual occurrences.

4\. I'm under no illusions - it's very, very difficult if not impossible to
generalize human behaviour. People are different and they can interpret things
in very different ways. Culture also plays a very big role. That's why I don't
really expect to find the answer here or anywhere else. (Maybe there isn't an
answer? Maybe this is a non-problem?) I just tend to look for patterns in
responses and try to improve/change my own attitude, mindset, communication
and relationships with people (if I do find great advice, it's a bonus). Most
of the replies I've read have misinterpreted something I've said. That could
be partly my fault and/or partly the reader's.

5\. One can't really quantify aspects of social relationships objectively, so
you resort to using qualifiers like "tend to", "many" (instead of "any"), and
"probably" etc, rather than talking about "10% of the time", or "60% of my
discussions". But considering that most people seemed to ignore these
qualifiers, is this really the best way to express these ideas?

6\. Believe it or not, I get along with people very well. I know about
adapting to different situations and can do it with great ease, and I do
recognize what I'm talking about as my own shortcoming rather than blaming
others.

There are many other things but I think these are the most significant for
now.

~~~
neilk
I agree, I think most of the people who responded assumed you were talking
about geek/normal socialization. But you're talking about something else. You
want to experience a variety of things, and thus you have a variety of social
groups, but in each case you feel like you're suppressing part of yourself.

I know exactly what you are talking about. I don't think this is easy to fix.
I've sort of "solved" the problem by living in the Bay Area. There are a lot
of hypernerds, and a lot of wild and creative people who love to party, and a
significant number of people who are in the intersection.

You'll never completely escape the problem, though. One of the blessings and
curses of the modern world is that you can develop interests that make you
very different from your geographic peers.

The one thing that you really MUST do is stay away from people or activities
you have contempt for. That's not good for you or for them. And even if you
think you are hiding it well, usually they pick up on it, at least
subconsciously.

~~~
ilitirit
> I know exactly what you are talking about. I don't think this is easy to
> fix. I've sort of "solved" the problem by living in the Bay Area

After doing it for so long, I've realized it's not an easy problem to deal
with. I think that you have a fairly accurate interpretation of what I'm
trying to convey. I'm glad you posted about how you've attempted to deal with
it (even though the "fix" may just have been a pleasant side-effect of moving
for another reason). I've considered relocating, but I also like my friends.
So to me, this is sort of ditching them and finding other people to be around.
This could of course just be me trying to rationalize away unpleasant options
but knowing myself it's also an indication of the difficulty of the problem.

~~~
neilk
Yeah. Also, be careful what you wish for. The Bay Area is great, but also an
echo chamber for the kind of people who live in the Bay Area. Maybe it's a
good thing that you bridge various worlds that don't normally communicate. You
can be an 'interesting' person in all of them.

------
xenophanes
There do exist groups of people who like being corrected, and seek out their
own mistakes. e.g. critical rationalists (see the philosophy of Karl Popper).

if interested, email me (see profile).

------
dionidium
One way to look at it is that you'll inevitably dumb yourself down in front of
someone you haven't yet realized is actually smart. So it seems you have a
choice between 1) frequently appearing pompous or out-of-place but
occasionally identifying yourself as smart to other smart people, which is
likely a desirable outcome; or 2) always appearing average, even in front of
people you'd prefer didn't think of you as average.

------
mingyeow
I got over it at the age of 25. Bloody hard transition. Pick new friends. If
you are in SF, lets do beer!

<http://v3.mingyeow.com/?page_id=5>

------
adrianwaj
Okay - check this room out: <http://hackernews.speeqe.com/>

It's for people that feel they're in the same predicament as ilitrit.

..or anyone here for that matter.

------
phugoid
You're complaining about having two sets of friends? I think I'd settle for
one.

But I won't dumb down.

------
joechung
Do you have a girlfriend?

~~~
ilitirit
No, but there are several women I sleep with occasionally. Do you think having
a girlfriend would help alleviate the problem?

~~~
highiq
If you do like I did--stumble across a woman with an IQ 50% higher than mine--
then yes. And if the two of you are reasonably compatible, then you should
consider marrying her. Otherwise, there's a good chance that a girlfriend
would not alleviate the problem. At any rate, if you're interested in talking
to a couple who has similar feelings, you can contact me at gmail.

------
rogojin
You must be very smart. Wish I Was You.

------
c00p3r
There are several kinds of human-human relations in which dumbing yourself
down are good thing. For example, in employee-employer relationship employee
usually act dumber than his boss. Many women 'playing dumb' when it seems
useful for them, especially when a man pays, and most of sales people doing
this all the time.

But in some situations, you will probably hate it and will have an urge to be
yourself - not act or adapt at all, and not see other people's acting. But
this type of relationships is very hard to find. Usually what we got is a
compromises, especially when in the middle age.

------
lastps
Intelligence is a commodity and is often over-rated. For example, I think
energy/focus is more important.

Everyone has something valuable to give whether they are smart or not. More
relevant is "Do I like this person?"

A focus on intelligence rather than "do i like them" seems like you are
rigging the game in favor of your strengths. You're intelligent so that's the
lens through which you view the world. A beautiful person or an exception
people person might use those lens.

Again, "do i like them?" is more important than your biased lens.

------
jacoblyles
You sound like a socially-uncalibrated egotistical person who blames his
short-comings on other people.

I don't really see what the problem is with "switching modes" depending on who
you're talking to. Everybody does it. It's natural. You don't want to be the
guy that yaps about the research project he's doing during the department
social hour, and which is coincidentally the only thing he talks about before
and after social hour as well.

Even though I can follow a conversation about graph theory and computational
biology, I still avoid the guys at social hour that won't talk about anything
else.

~~~
stcredzero
_Even though I can follow a conversation about graph theory and computational
biology, I still avoid the guys at social hour that won't talk about anything
else_

I read his question as more like: "How do I reconcile knowing spouting X and Y
are egregious idiocy with socializing with people who do that?"

I hear this question as more like "Doctor, it hurts when I do that, what do I
do?" Answer: Don't do that!

~~~
ilitirit
> "How do I reconcile knowing spouting X and Y are egregious idiocy with
> socializing with people who do that?"

You're right, but after reading this to myself I realized that my problem
could be more like "how do I deal with the frustrations that go along with
managing relationships with people like this?"

I'm glad you posted that. Sometimes the difficulty in finding an answer stems
from not fully understanding the problem one's self.

