
Gender-neutral Chromium code - monort
https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/styleguide/gender_neutral_code.md
======
dkn
I find it hard to believe that people find gendered language to be such a
barrier to entry. More likely these are soapboxes for people to politicize
from.

I think more harm and time-wasting has been caused as a result of these witch
hunts than the original "problem" itself has. I tend to speak ungendered by
default more often than not. Perhaps people use gendered pronouns because
they're thinking of themselves in the situation they are writing about.

~~~
matthewmacleod
I find it hard to believe that it's really such a problem to suggest that
gender-neutral language is a pretty reasonable goal. It's hardly the biggest
barrier to diversity in software development, but it's a small bias that seems
very minimal in cost to fix over time – and every little push in that
direction helps.

More than anything I struggle to understand what actual objection to 'try to
use gender-neutral language' one could possibly have.

~~~
dkn
Yeah I envision this being something that is just fixed over time as people
are exposed to new and different ideas.

Yet, it seems to me that a lot of these documents are written and intended to
enforce overnight changes in people's unconscious biases.

From the document:

> Each of us has the right to enjoy our experience and participate without
> fear of harassment, discrimination, or condescension, whether blatant or
> subtle.

I don't know about you guys but I hardly enjoy reading technical
documentation. It's not meant to be an enjoyable experience. It's meant to
convey complex meaning in a (hopefully) short amount of time. I don't think
gendered pronouns add to the effectiveness of this communication method, but I
also don't think we need to formalize their usage (or non-usage).

I guess I'm asking why this can't be a natural progression that we all wish to
undertake as cooperating organisms rather than enforced with competition and
penalties? It seems like a wasted opportunity and unnecessarily polarizing.

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PKop
Take note people. See the mental poison infecting all aspects of culture. If
you disagree with this nonsense, you need to push back and speak up.

For an example of how bad this can get (and has gotten) see:

[https://youtu.be/04wyGK6k6HE](https://youtu.be/04wyGK6k6HE)

One of the most captivating interviews I've watched recently.

Don't say you weren't warned.

edit: Isn't it funny this thread is dead/flagged? You can't even have an
opinion on the issue that doesn't fall in line with the established "correct"
position. No discussion is allowed. The pros and cons cannot even be
enumerated without censorship.

On an issue that directly involves development practices and would necessitate
_more_ work for developers. Talking about it is off limits! If that's not the
very definition of suppression of speech, I don't know what is. People that
have reservations about this are viewed as "sensitive" and worrying
unnecessarily. But look at this very thread!

~~~
antisthenes
> Isn't it funny this thread is dead/flagged?

Isn't this the pushback you were talking about? That something is flagged
means it's trash that doesn't even warrant the effort of discussion and
definitely doesn't belong on the front page.

In fact we're discussing it right now (you can still post in flagged threads,
can you not?)

~~~
PKop
Quite obviously it limits discussion. It is removed from view of those that
didn't see it when it was posted. It is _not_ falling off the main page by
virtue of not earning enough engagement/comments/votes from users. It is
arbitrarily being pulled.

Maybe I don't understand who has the power to "flag" a post, or what the
criteria is.

YCombinator can do whatever they want on their site if it is they (the mods)
alone who "flag" something. The engagement and discussion _is_ a sign that
people want to discuss it. Not sure why it is _deemed_ (by whom?) to be
"trash". By you?

My point is, this post relates to programming. It is not a side issue or a
triviality or inconsequential.

"Free speech" generally is a fundamental issue that has impact on all areas of
society, certainly tech and the internet, and I think this is a free speech
issue. It is a discussion of what forms of speech are deemed allowed and what
isn't.

~~~
DanBC
> Maybe I don't understand who has the power to "flag" a post.

Anyone with more than 30 karma can flag a submission or a post.

> It is removed from view

You can change the "showdead" option in your user settings to show killed
submissions and posts.

~~~
PKop
Noted. Thank you

edit: Does this only work when browsing "new", and not the front page / more
posts? In other words, I don't see this post, or _any_ posts with the [dead]
or [flagged] tag when paging through _more_ from the home page.

~~~
DanBC
Flagged posts are going to drop faster than not flagged posts, so they're
going to be harder to find if you're browsing from the front page.

------
madamelic
I find it more offensive and demeaning that things like this are forced upon
people.

I am pretty sure at 25, I can stand reading "He xxxx" in documentation.

The issue isn't the words, it is assuming no one besides someone like you
should work on the project.

~~~
TheGirondin
I can't even imagine being that fragile that seeing a gendered pronoun would
be upsetting.

~~~
rexpop
In fact, it may not be upsetting, but merely another in a long line of brief
experiences that inform the audience — male and female — that women have no
place in technical documentation, technical stories, programming, technology,
prosperity, agency, or power.

These are the minute bricks of social construction, and we can either choose
to ignore them (and replicate existing oppressive social structures) or fix
them (and make conscious choices about the society we construct).

If, indeed, you are opposed to women programming, I can think of no better
long-term solution than persistently emphasizing the maleness of technology or
exclusively using male pronouns.

To come out and blankly state that "women should not be in programming" would
be met with the Backfire Effect, so subtlety is necessary, here. Keep up the
good work.

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maxxxxx
It's good to know that "He" as abbreviation for "Helium" is most likely OK.

~~~
ue_
It's ridiculous that people need to be told apparently that 'he' is okay in a
base64 string.

~~~
strictnein
We should probably switch to base60, just to be safe.

------
fny
The eight year old in me cheers. My grade school teacher beat my singular use
of they/them/their out of me. At the time, it seemed ludicrous not to use
they/them/their in cases when I didn't know someone's gender. I assume this
was due to my first language. Farsi doesn't have gendered pronouns: everything
is "it".

Bahaha! Now I can gleefully write "when the user enters their password" and be
_right_.

I'm not sure how I feel about this bit though...

> For new code/comments, consider using just ‘A’, ‘B’ as names.

Perhaps consider using unisex names instead? Maybe "Alex" and "Bo"?

------
splintercell
> For new code/comments, consider using just ‘A’, ‘B’ as names (instead of
> Alice and Bob)

This defeats the point of using Alice and Bob. There is a reason why Alice and
Bob have different genders, because when thinking about complex scenarios,
having different genders in addition to different names is more beneficial.
Maybe they can use anthropomorphize animals, Archi the Alligator and Bob the
Bunny.

------
holydude
I find it ridiculous that someone sees this as an issue. I can't believe
people invest time in changing things like master/slave to leader/follower.

------
major505
"Emphasis is added: unnecessarily gendered code is discriminatory and
condescending, and reading biased code isn't enjoyable."

Well... thats some heavy bullshit. If you get offended by gender you shold
even be on the internet... you will be offended by literally everything.

------
philjackson
I've found it fairly common these days for documentation to explicitly use
female pronouns when talking about anonymous people - I guess that's just a
show of solidarity to our underrepresented female counterparts.

Using a specific gender when refereing to someone anonymous grates on me
anyway - just seems like poor writing.

------
gibbitz
It's sad that someone needed to write this. If only we had a pervasive moral
organization like religion that could show us that all genders and races are
to be equally respected. Oh, wait... we do... but they don't :(

------
tzs
Is there a set of English pronouns that refer to only males the way "she",
"her", etc., refer to only females? [1]

All of the male pronouns that I can recall at the moment, such as "he" and
"his", can do double duty serving both when you are referring to an actual
male, and when you are referring to a person of unknown gender.

[1] I mean when referring to people. Let's leave the whole using "she" for
boats for another time...

~~~
douche
That's the centuries-old, but now "wrongthink" convention. Best not do that...

------
martinko
Is this a joke?

------
zeveb
In English, male pronouns may legitimately be used to refer to individuals of
unknown gender. _This_ is important: English is a beautiful language, and
destroying its beauty is an act of cultural vandalism.

~~~
clint
> In English, male pronouns may legitimately be used to refer to individuals
> of unknown gender.

Take a few moments with yourself this evening to seriously think about why
this might be.

~~~
strathmeyer
It's weird when all the comments here prove why what said needed to be said. I
thought this wasn't Reddit.

------
macinjosh
What a gigantic waste of time and resources. How fragile is someone's self
identity that it falls apart when they see a pronoun used that isn't the same
as their own?

~~~
matthewmacleod
It's not really a waste of anything. No time is being wasted. No resources are
being used. The guidance is – 'try to use gender neutral language'. That's it.
No cost.

~~~
macinjosh
Obviously you're not a coder. When I am in a coding flow the last thing I want
to do is come out of my flow to make sure I didn't accidentally use a gendered
term.

~~~
matthewmacleod
_Obviously you 're not a coder._

I very much am. I don't really understand your argument – do you have to 'come
out of your flow' to make sure that you spell correctly, or are grammatically
consistent, or aren't accidentally racist?

~~~
vertex-four
Some people actually do have to pay significant attention to ensure that they
do basic things like be polite to others and not be overtly discriminatory,
actually - there's a reason there's talk of people having to have a "mental
filter" in certain situations.

------
acobster
"These are only suggestions. You make the call."

In other words, calm down people.

------
whorleater
This is the most inane bikeshedding

------
netsharc
The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the
world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to make all
other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been
adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought — that
is, a thought diverging from the principles of Ingsoc — should be literally
unthinkable, at least so far as thought is dependent on words.

[http://orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/en_app](http://orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/en_app)

~~~
matthewmacleod
This is the worst kind off middle-brow bullshit where you have parroted an
unrelated quote with no commentary whatsoever on what possible parallels you
see between these two concepts.

~~~
Sir_Substance
The parallel he is attempting to draw is fairly obvious, which suggests that
you are being deliberately disingenuous and/or oblivious.

It's a low quality argumentative technique, and is generally employed in the
hope that your opponent will respond with something easier to attack, aka an
attempt to generate a straw man. 5/10 for enthusiasm but 2/10 for technique.

~~~
vertex-four
While it's obvious, it's also disingenuous when making an argument to fail to
make the entirety of your argument, and thus avoid saying "difficult" things.

"I feel that the requirement for non-gendered language is preventing people
from thinking about the differences between genders", for example, would be
something that can actually be dissected and responded to. A quote can't, so
much.

------
unclesaamm
For everyone whining about how this is "newspeak" and brainwashing, consider
how the pronoun "Ms." didn't exist until the 60s:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms). (edit
<\- the period is part of the link, but HN strips it out)

Shouldn't the arguments that language can lead toward changes of thought (the
"newspeak arguments") actually _spur_ these changes toward less biased
thinking? If you agree that it is possible to change language, and that
changing language changes thought, then the only remaining arguments at that
point are appeals to a nebulous concept of "freedom" and that you like being a
dude and saying whatever you want.

Appeals to 1984 are extra bankrupt because this is not a government, and there
is absolutely no penalty for disobedience, except the social one -- and social
punishments for disobedience of social norms has always been a part and parcel
of living in, well, society.

~~~
strictnein
Do you mean the 1660s?

From your link:

> ""Ms." began to be used as early as the 17th century, along with "Miss" and
> "Mrs.", as a title derived from the then formal "Mistress", which, like
> Mister, did not originally indicate marital status"

~~~
unclesaamm
Read the full sentence:

> "Ms." began to be used as early as the 17th century, along with "Miss" and
> "Mrs.", as a title derived from the then formal "Mistress", which, like
> Mister, did not originally indicate marital status. "Ms.", however, fell
> into disuse in favor of the other two titles and was not revived until the
> 20th century.

It wasn't until the 1960s that "Ms." appeared as a formal category in the
United States on forms.

~~~
strictnein
You stated:

> ""Ms." didn't exist until the 60s"

So, yeah... clearly you were talking about formal categories on US forms...

