
Design flaw behind MacBook Pro’s “stage light” effect - vinhnx
https://ifixit.org/blog/12903/
======
zelos
I really don't understand Apple's obsessions with thinness. Do they really
think that a few millimetres off the depth of a laptop is worth sacrificing
reliability like this?

I thought the same during the last iPhone keynote where they touted "an extra
30 minutes of battery life" as a major feature: just make it slightly thicker
and you could add _hours_ to the battery life.

~~~
tivert
> I really don't understand Apple's obsessions with thinness.

Steve Jobs once prioritized a thing and found success. Now that Jobs is dead
Apple is cargo-culting his past decisions.

See also: hyper-aggressive removal of ports. It made sense in 1998 when we
were talking about clearly obsolete things like Apple's nonstandard DIN-8
serial ports and SCSI-1, less so in 2018 when we're talking about performant
and ubiquitous standards like USB-A and the headphone jack.

~~~
slimsag
What I don't get is why not just replace the headphone jack with a smaller
one? e.g. a 1.5mm one?

~~~
tivert
> What I don't get is why not just replace the headphone jack with a smaller
> one? e.g. a 1.5mm one?

Before the iPhone, traditional cell phones _already had_ smaller headphone
jacks: a 2.5mm one was pretty standard. One of the innovative things the
iPhone did was replace the smaller port with a standard 3.5mm jack, which
allowed people to use regular (potentially high-quality) 3.5mm headphones with
it, rather than a crappy 2.5mm headset. The decision eliminated pointless
proprietary-ness to integrate with a more vibrant ecosystem.

Job's decision on the iMac to embrace USB and drop the Mac's proprietary ports
could be seen in a similar light.

I wish those kinds of decisions were the ones present-day Apple decided to
cargo-cult.

~~~
da_chicken
Yeah, but the EU has been trying to drag the same Apple _kicking and
screaming_ into using a common connector for phone chargers since at least
2011. The iPhone XS and XR still use the Lightning connector.

~~~
badwolf
With the latest iPad Pro using USB-C (as well as macbooks) makes me think this
will be happening soon (fingers crossed)

~~~
penagwin
I work in phone repair, and I have to say the lightning connector is superior
to usb c in durability. 9/10 times a phone comes in "because it's not
charging" there's dirt in the port, some tweezers and they're on their way.

Whenever a USB port is involved, it's usually smashed and requires soldering
to fix. Given that most modern phones have AMOLED screens, and those cost
200$+ just for our store to buy the part, and that many phones require you to
remove the screen to get to the charging port.... Well you see where this is
going.

~~~
int_19h
If I remember correctly, USB-C and Lightning have the same guaranteed
insertion cycles.

------
snazz
The most important quote from the article:

> _But the bigger problem is that, in an apparent effort to make the display
> as thin as possible, Apple designed the cables as part of the display, so
> they cannot be replaced. This means that when (not if) those cables start to
> fail, the entire display unit needs to be replaced, as opposed to one or two
> little cables—effectively turning a $6 problem into a $600 disaster._

This is beyond crazy. How much more space would it take up to make the ribbon
cables replaceable?

~~~
nothis
I tend to defend Apple because I believe their commitment to "quality" as a
being defined by every possible angle of hardware and software design as
opposed to one, simple, established measurement, is something computer/device
design needs (i.e., putting "unmeasurable" quality aspects like good UI design
on the same level as measurable ones like processor speed). But they fuck up,
sometimes. The one-button mouse made no sense, for example. But in terms of
raw hardware, it's their over-commitment to thinness. Like, _who cares?_

I think there was a good movement to at least _try_ and make laptops thinner,
somewhere around the late 00s. There's a point between 4cm and 2.5cm that
really made sense to me, in order to make laptops more portable (their main
feature). But then, it got ridiculous. They shaved off a millimeter every year
and at one point, it started to negatively affect the products. You could
probably heighten the battery life quite a bit by adding 2 or 3 millimeters of
thickness, you would prevent the keyboard rubbing onto the display (see
"staingate"), and now this shit about cables being so goddamn thin they
literally break.

This is their "Pro" line, as in "professional". I use my MacBook Pro
professionally. I could not care less about whatever millimeter they shaved
off the thing at the cost of making it more brittle. Sturdiness is a very
"professional" quality and it looks like it's not in their list of priorities
anymore. Meanwhile, MacBook Pro prices reach the $3000 mark.

It seems obvious enough to me for Apple to realize they've fucked up. Just
like their last iOS update – oh wonder! – focused on speed rather than
gimmicks, I hope their next MacBook hardware update will re-discover
sturdiness as a selling point.

~~~
pathartl
Even ignoring the "couple mm will add battery life", what about a couple of mm
actually allowing the fucking machine to breathe and not thermal throttle?

My largest complaint with laptops is their performance just cannot match that
of a low end desktop, and you're certainly not helping your customers by
releasing a machine that (let's face it) is designed to not run at its fullest
potential. It's the equivalent of buying a v8, but after you get past 35mph a
couple of the cylinders shut off.

~~~
dwaite
Making a portable device that _never_ thermally throttles means a non-
practical thermal system, likely consuming power and generating noise by
running 100% all the time.

The reality is that the thermal output differs by well over an order of
magnitude depending on what you are doing.

When a complicated task comes along, the system may: 1\. spike to full CPU
usage at max power usage (possibly higher than rated TDP) 2\. if the work
continues, get temporarily throttled while the cooling system catches up 3\.
settle on a "steady state" thermal performance

Since the design of the cooling system is different on a case-by-case basis,
the thermal properties are now customizable by the laptop manufacturer to
match their system.

This can cause issues with certain "stress test" benchmarks which do not take
into account the more complex nature of both modern CPUs and cooling
solutions. The performance curve from start to stop of a CPU load task no
longer looks like a square wave.

I assume you were referring to the 2018 MBP with i9 chip (which I own).
Initially there was an issue because the thermal and power profile that the
machine shipped were not appropriate (and actually in some cases made the i9
machine perform inferior to an i7).

They fixed this with a later software update, which AFAIK resolved people's
issues. I didn't purchase my machine until after the software update was
released, so I never saw the original behavior.

------
Chernobog
In Norway we have 5 years of "reklamasjon" on products that are supposed to
last considerably longer than two years, such as a laptop. It is sort of a
government mandated warranty on top of the regular one. I have had 4 year and
11 months old stuff that I have gotten replaced or repaired free of charge.

Wonder how products would have been designed if this was a thing globally (or
at least in the top 3 biggest markets). Anyone else who thinks "a whole lot
more durable and repairable" is a reasonable guess?

~~~
gst
That's probably one of the reasons why the top spec 13" model (Touch Bar and
Touch ID 2.3GHz Quad-Core Processor 512GB Storage) costs kr 22 190,00 = $2581
in Norway, while I get the same model for $1999 in the United States.

I'd rather have the choice to decide myself if and how much I want to spend
for warranty (e.g., AppleCare) than having the government force me to
indirectly pay for a warranty that I might not need or want.

~~~
martinald
VAT is 25% in Norway so that makes $500 of the difference. Put in a 3% margin
for forex swings and you are pretty much at the difference.

~~~
mgolawala
Not to mention that in Norway the VAT is included in the price, whereas in the
U.S. the Sales Tax needs to be added on top. For a fairer comparison, you
would actually need to add the appropriate sales tax for your state. That wont
make up all of the the 25% difference but could easily add 7 to 9% to the cost
of the U.S. price.

~~~
martinald
Keep in mind though VAT is very different to sales tax. If it's a b2b purchase
you will almost always get VAT refunded on the purchase by the government,
which afiak never happens in the US on sales tax. So it is actually cheaper in
the EU/EEA to get a laptop as a business (as you will reclaim the VAT in
Europe but you wouldn't be able to reclaim the sales tax in the US).

------
docker_up
I don't understand the arrogance and the stubbornness of Apple to keep that
stupid Touch Bar. They have completely lost me as a customer because I
absolutely refuse to buy a Macbook Pro until they give me the OPTION of a
regular keyboard. The fact they are arrogant enough to think they don't need
to provide me with the option makes me angry as a consumer, and I'm about to
ditch it completely at this point and go to a Surface Pro.

~~~
samdixon
Touchbar would be really cool if they would just move it up a slot and re-
implement the fn row side by side.

~~~
xutopia
But then... what would the Touchbar offer that the keys don't already?

~~~
QML
There’s more usage to the touchbar than replicating the media controls of the
fn keys. For example if you wanted to smoothly scrub through a video, a
continuous Touch Bar would make more sense than two discrete keys.

------
DGAP
I love my MBP - when my employer pays for it. I'd never buy a $3K machine with
this many issues on my own dollar.

~~~
TomVDB
I absolutely _love_ my MBP, the 15" retina from 2012. I just spent $90 for a
replacement battery, and after 2 hours of disassembly and reassembly, it's
back to being a fantastic workhorse.

But there's no way I'd buy a new one for myself today.

~~~
reubenswartz
Did the same thing. Not even considering upgrading (although the 32GB of RAM
is nice).

------
rhinoceraptor
You can use flat-flex cables instead of wires without these issues, for
example all of the Nintendo folding handhelds use them. And those are durable
enough to stand up to children abusing them for years on end.

They have the flat flex make a loop to allow the flex strain to be spread out,
rather than bending it at one specific point.

~~~
ProAm
Those cables add quite a bit of weight though.

~~~
Someone1234
What cables are you referring to? The comment you replied to said that Apple
and Nintendo use the same type of cable but with Nintendo having more slack to
eat up strain.

~~~
jandrese
The DS is much much thicker than the Macbook. The larger bend radius no doubt
helps the cables not fatigue as quickly, in addition to having more slack.

------
phlm
I just can’t see any sane person buying these machines with their own money. I
am still on my 2015 13” rMBP, but boy if I had to upgrade to a new machine, I
would probably look elsewhere. And mostly because of the hardware, what an
irony...

~~~
burky
I’m operating on a Macbook Pro 15 from mid 2010. I upgraded the hard drive to
SSD, upgraded the memory to 8 gigs (max supported), and the mobo has been
replaced twice (fried from overheating .. the thing gets really hot). This has
prolonged my machine for a bit but it’s starting to getting long in the tooth.
They also just dropped my model from being able to install the newest mac OS
(for a 2010 that might make sense). Seems being able to upgrade modular pieces
of your tech is a thing of the past. It has saved me some really time and
money being able to remain on the same machine for 9 years. If it weren’t
upgradeable that probably be a totally different story.

Biggest features that I would miss from my macbook:

\--Touchpad with BetterTouchTool - I heavily use custom gestures and it’s
insane how much this drives my daily work flow and speed

\--Unix environment is super nice

\--Reliable and quick resume from hibernate or suspend

\--Never really lags at the OS level .. but individual apps might get a little
bogged

I would use a windows notebook as my daily driver if the experience were close
and it had a solid build (weight and slimness is not a huge deal to me).
Laptop + linux would be fine as well but I don’t know about the user
experience with the newer touchpads in linux.

Does anyone have any success stories with notebooks that mirror my experience
and isn’t OSX?

~~~
bdcravens
> upgraded the memory to 8 gigs (max supported)

You should be able to put 16GB in it. Apple doesn't say so, but I ran that
much with 0 issues for years in machines from that time.

~~~
nsgf
Are you sure it was a 2010 model and not a 2011 one?

~~~
bdcravens
I may have had a 2011 model.

A quick peek at [https://everymac.com/systems/by_year/macs-released-
in-2010.h...](https://everymac.com/systems/by_year/macs-released-in-2010.html)
suggests that the Core 2 Duo systems (13" MBP) could handle 16gb, but the
i5/i7 models (15"/17") couldn't. This Stack Exchange answer confirms:
[https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/105036](https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/105036)

------
boyband6666
This generation was the one that made me finally give up on MBPs, and now I'm
even more glad. The lack of 8th gen intel, removal of magsafe (an innovation
they were previous, rightly, proud of), lack of actual touchscreen, and ever
increasing prices. Other friends who do a lot of photography (a key market for
apple!?) were miffed at the removal of the SD card slot.

I went for a HP Spectre and have been very impressed. touchscreen changes
things entirely - reading papers is a joy. Giving a demo is easy with a 360
degre hinge so i can prop it on the table... oh and it was half the price, for
better specs (the resolution is crazy).

I'm still open to MBPs in the future, as I loved my 2010, 2012, and 2014
versions, but they need to look at what made them great for the 'pro' market,
and think about how to servie that, not just turn them in to a more expensive
version for the image conscious.

~~~
lostmyoldone
Magsafe have saved my numerous nd expensive MBP's more time than I can count.
I don't plan to buy another one until they either add it back, or cut the
price in half.

My pet theory is that most of Apple, as most of the industry, believe that
what was selling MBP's was their design. Design as in fashion, or watches. But
I don't think that was it, it was rather design as in furniture classics, as
in quality tools, where the goal is for form and function to become one.

According to me, it is evidenced by how eg. iPhone4/5 feels really nice in the
hand whereas 6 and up feels like holding a slippery bar of soap, minus the
nice smell.

I really hope they find their way, because Windows still want me do stab
myself each time I use it, and getting Linux on a portable still doesn't feel
very tempting, even if I could find a hardware that has good touchpad, rigid
chassis, a keyboard that doesn't feel like it's made of cheese, webcam that
actually has colors, and microphones with echo cancellation that actually
works, some battery life, not too noisy, good screen. Most fail already at the
touchpad.

~~~
boyband6666
I've yet to meet anyone who has had magsafe that didn't think it was
brilliant. I'm also assuming it's now patentented so nobody else can make
something similar.

I did find it annoying however (in a precursor to Apple becoming a company who
make dongles) how I had to buy a tiny magnetic block to use my v1 charger with
my next laptop.

------
noonespecial
The farther this goes the more I just want my 2012 body with 2018 specs.

I'd actually pay _more_ for this option.

~~~
ProAm
Honest question, but how much would you pay for this model? $7000 USD?

~~~
noonespecial
Make it full-on 2019 state of the art specs and I would.

My 2012 still works great. If I could expect that kind of life, 7k for that
makes it seem like a bargain over the current lot.

~~~
dwighttk
Same here, This thing doesn’t show any signs of breaking down. I chalk it up
mostly to the ssd instead of a spinning disk which always seemed to be the
part that wore out on my previous machines.

------
dmtroyer
I've been using a MacBook Pro 13" or 15" professionally for the last 9 years.
I wouldn't use anything else. I don't use the touchbar but I don't mind it. I
also appreciate that they are getting thinner and lighter as I regularly carry
them in a bag on my shoulder or on my bike.

~~~
TheLoneAdmin
> I don't use the touchbar but I don't mind it.

How do you press "Escape"? did you remap it to another key?

~~~
jjtheblunt
control [ IS escape

~~~
dingaling
Only on a US keyboard

------
equivocates
I like the Touch Bar. I use it all the time contextually in whatever app I am
using. For regular, non-tech users, I've noticed that they use it too. It
allows those folks to quickly access options that were previously keyboard
shortcuts.

As an aside, I also enjoy the quick access to emojis.‍

~~~
Osiris
I'm really not a fan, but recently I noticed that WebStorm (IntelliJ) supports
it and when looking down to find the F7 key (find all references), I was
pleasantly surprised to see the option right there on the TouchBar.

Now, if I could figure out how to customize which options appeared on it, that
would be great.

I think the biggest problem with it was 1) Replaced existing keys that people
used 2) No apps had been updated to use it

Now that more apps use it, I can start to see some benefit from it.

------
Polyisoprene
Hopefully more regulations will come forcing the manufacturers to think about
reparability. Not sure where the EU right to repair ended up, but it seems
more to be optional and just give better labelling.

~~~
ucaetano
How much more would you be willing to pay for reparability?

20%? 40%?

And how much more weight/volume would you be willing to accept for
reparability?

PS: Honest, curious question here, not rhetorical.

~~~
fgandiya
Honestly, I won't mind that extra 40% if it meant that I could use the device
for a few more years. Weight for me is a hard compromise, but the pre-touchbar
Macs weren't necessarily heavy.

~~~
ucaetano
Cool, thanks for the honest answer!

------
highace
I'd love to get something other than a MacBook, but the trackpad compensates
for every other flaw. It's also nice that there's no air vent on the bottom.

------
pier25
I bought an iMac because I needed an upgrade and couldn't stand the 2016+
laptops models.

Before the iMac I bought a 2015 MBP and sold it a couple of months later
because the integrated GPU was seriously lacking and the 4th gen CPU got
extremely hot and loud.

Thank god I don't need portability anymore because Apple laptops have been
nothing but disappointment for the past 4 years.

------
altmind
Apple, providing mere 12 month standard warranty does not feel like a premium
product. $270 apple care(~20% of product price) pushes the cost of fixing
product design mistake on the users. This is not how it should be.

Edit: You may consider buying your next apple device using a credit card that
offers extended warranty. For example, C___ double cash adds 2 years of
extended warranty on top of manufacturer's. Am__ offers 1 year extended
warranty.

------
fipple
I don’t see this as an artifact of Steve Jobs’ absence as much as I see it as
an artifact of any company that gets so successful behind just a handful of
products. Eventually to drive revenue growth you start needing to focus on
gimmicky bullshit instead of just power and features, like absurd thinness and
the natural consequence is flexible iPads and unrepairable MacBooks.

------
oneplane
I wonder how this type of 'small' issue with a 'big' effect gets past QA/QC.
You'd think it would have failed during standard mechanical usage tests, but
apparently it didn't, or didn't fail reliably? It's a stupid issue of course,
but I'm more interested in how this type of thing isn't caught.

------
raincom
That's why Apple sells applecare+ for these machines. Expect the lifetime of
these new MBPs to be 3 years.

------
_bxg1
Been considering upgrading my last-gen-design MBP to a new one... maybe I'll
hold off on that.

~~~
symfoniq
I recommend holding off. I actually sold my 2017 and went back to a 2015.

~~~
arvinsim
Tsk, just updated during the holidays. Now I have to be extra careful with it.

~~~
jandrese
In this case being careful means not opening and closing the screen.

------
tonymet
Have you seen the new mac commercial with all the different artists? They were
all using the pre-usb-c macbooks. The usb-c macbooks aren't tools, they are
accessories. I'm still using my 2014 macbook and will never likely buy another
mac.

------
petard
Does this affect only touch-bar MBPs or every post 2016 model?

~~~
snazz
It’s unclear, considering that the Touch Bar was mentioned in the article, but
I’m guessing that it affects all models since the display cabling is not
specific to the Touch Bar design.

------
fernly
The article mentions the possibility of a similar problem with the new Air.
For curiosity I went to iFixit to see what the current (2017) macbook has. It
appears[1] to be a much longer cable that flexes over a longer radius.

[1]
[https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Retina+MacBook+2017+Display+Ass...](https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Retina+MacBook+2017+Display+Assembly+Replacement/104756#s178616)

------
marcinzm
Happened to me, Macbook now has a useless display and I can either spend $600+
or have an overpriced desktop. Didn't even use it that much.

------
taude
What are some good alternatives these days to MB-pros? I'm likely not going to
get another, and don't mind giving up a little in size/weight for ports,
simplicity, etc. Any good threads on the web to point me to to save me some
research time?

I still think my 2014 11" MB AIR is the best laptop I've ever owned, despite
the screen being woefully drab this day and age.

~~~
boyband6666
I switchd to a HP touchscreen. Sounds like a gimmick, but it gives you a much
faster way of working for big buttons (new mail, etc)

Check out the Spectres for quality and value. I've been impressed.

------
geophile
This is yet another consequence of Apple's new approach to design, "Reality
Distortion Field 2.0".

I posted this here a few days ago, but seems relevant to this discussion:
[https://github.com/geophile/reality-distortion-
field](https://github.com/geophile/reality-distortion-field)

------
htk
I was about to buy a MacBook Pro 15", 1TB of storage and 32GB RAM, for work,
and this weakness made me reconsider it. One thing that I don't understand:
I'm pretty sure Apple has a machine to open/close the lid a million times to
test the hinges etc, how didn't it catch this "flaw"?

------
reaperducer
While the article blames the quest for thinness in the current generation of
MacBook Pros, I have a 17" MBP from 2006 that also has this "stage light"
issue. And this is a machine with a full optical drive and removable battery.

At least now I know the cause. Too bad my hands are really too big to fix it
on my own.

------
kahlonel
A YouTube channel named UnboxTherapy posted a video showing keyboard problems
with the latest gen butterfly switch. The switch design is inherently flawed,
no amount of rubber can fix that. They need to go back to whatever they had in
2013.

------
chooseaname
Wouldn't one of the things you test on a laptop design be how many times you
can open and close the lid? Surely Apple has a robot already that does this?
If not, why not? This seems like it would have been caught had they done this.

------
jploh
The worst part of this is it's not replaceable. I have a mid-2011 MBP still
running in great condition. Its flaw is the HDD SATA flex cable that is prone
to break which is replaceable and available on Amazon.

------
malchow
I wonder if Apple's hardware design troubles would be ameliorated if ICs had
to buy their own work machines using their own post-tax money.

EDIT: And could only use machines in the workplace that are release+12 months
old?

------
harshulpandav
Slightly off-topic but I'd like to mention -- I have never been happy by their
decision of getting rid of the Headphone jack (and other ports).

Laptop is meant to be a portable device and it needs to be self-sufficient.
But in case of the new MacBooks you have to keep adapters handy at all times.
Using bluetooth for audio draws more battery than wired ones, though
negligible, but still matters over long runs. Also, you have to make sure your
bluetooth earphones/speakers are charged as well.

EDIT - Disregard my comment. I had Apple iPhone in mind while writing for
MacBook. Guess I was misplaced in space and time.

~~~
sosborn
What? Unless I am missing something, all of the current mac laptops have audio
ports.

~~~
harshulpandav
You're right. My bad. I have added an edit to my comment.

------
cptskippy
The Mitsubishi Pedion had this exact same design flaw almost 20 years ago. I
stupidly spent $400 on a replacement screen only to have it happen 6 months
later.

------
gepeto42
Reminds me of the old plastic iBooks (white ones) which would either snag the
cables in the housing, or have the backlight power lines crack in the logic
board.

------
synaesthesisx
The right thing to do would be for Apple to offer extended warranty
replacements for this issue (like they finally did with the whole keyboard
fiasco).

------
anoncow
Have had the same issue with a 2015 MBA. Got charged 300 USD for a display
swap.

------
crankylinuxuser
When will people finally realize that Apple hardware is a status symbol, and
not indicative of quality any more?

How many more disasters, mishaps, and otherwise shoddy QA do they have to have
before people start demanding something else?

Edit: "Nice". Disagree and suffer the wrath of -1's and ratelimiting.

~~~
chrisseaton
> When will people finally realize that Apple hardware is a status symbol, and
> not indicative of quality any more?

In my practical experience it _is_ higher quality than other hardware.

~~~
crankylinuxuser
I'm sure in a superficial, artistic way, it appears higher quality. But the
moment you dig further than skin deep, there's glaring flaws after glaring
flaws.

The machine is nigh unupgradable, being soldered and glued at the seams. If
the mainboard is fried (usb3 cables?), the SSD is not recoverable.

There's also other various "failures if you look inside" like this issue. One
only needs to do a cursory search. One recent major issue is that a speck of
dust destroys keys on their keyboards.

Another issue pertaining to the laptop is that they are forcing with each
update the APP-ification with continual hurdles to make it harder to install
nonstore software.

Now sure, if you want to build for iOS, you need something running OSX. And
the only corporate solution is an apple. I get that dependency well, stinks.
But I don't make bones that their superficial beauty _is_ only skin deep.

~~~
Retra
If you want to argue that there's no correlation between the Apple name and
the quality of their products, you're going to need to do a comparative
analysis between Apple and other manufacturers instead of simply cherry-
picking well-known Apple product failures.

~~~
chrisseaton
The issue about the keyboard is notable because it's so unusual for Apple to
make a design mistake.

The keyboard on my Dell laptop is garbage but that's the way they always are
so nobody bats an eyelid about it.

