
Ask HN: Any advice for a programmer who has hit rock bottom? - desp_programmer
Throw away because my other account is quite active on here.  I was diagnosed with depression a few years ago and since then have made peace with it.  I am under medication, but it&#x27;s barely helping.  Recently I switched job to a very good tech company with good quality work and pay.  The plan was to join a startup  in a year or two and see where it takes me.<p>However, things have been going downhill.  I have  10 years  of programming experience and I would say I am above average at it.  Since the past few weeks, I have grown anxious and fearful of anything that&#x27;s remotely challenging.  So much so that I have started lying to take leave from work.  I like my work  but cannot muster the courage to do it.  I fear letting my team down.  I am always afraid and anxious.  It&#x27;s horrible living in fear.  Guilt has become a normal feeling.  I cannot bear lying to my awesome colleagues.  
I cannot decide what to study.  My programming confidence is taking a hit.  Everything looks bleak.  I have even thought of giving up and taking a job where I don&#x27;t have to think much, like an assistant or librarian or low level management associate.  It&#x27;s like I am just waiting to die...<p>Any advice will help.  Thanks HN.
======
sogen
As someone that had depresion, I know how you feel.

> my other account is quite active on here

1.- STOP READING HN! Go out, read books, do hard work (dig holes, plant trees,
etc), sweat! exercise! there's more to life than the latest startups and 'show
hn' posts.

2.- watch funny movies Seriously, I had a ritual, every night after work I'd
prepare dinner, and watch something funny, every single night. No excuses.
This helped a lot.

3.- exercise. Helps with mood. I think this is even better than medicine.

4.- leave HN, there are other things more important.

5.- find a hobby or do something different. I decided to do something bigger:
I had enough with my previous career and wasn't happy, So, I entered school
again to study a different career 10 years later. This saved me.

6.- it gets better.

7.- Oh, and don't sleep at daytime, keep a schedule, a routine, sleep at
night.

8.- Don't play videogames, avoid repetitive stuff: like 3d shooters where you
play again and again the same levels.

9.- Again, find a hobby, something that makes you go out.

Drop me an email if you need anything

~~~
fefifofu
You forgot: 10.- Eat healthy and drink lots of water. Fruits and veggies, less
bread and potatoes.

(I can be presumptuous in saying I know you forgot #10 because it feels like I
wrote your list myself...)

~~~
tsanders
I'd like to add an increase in your fish and seaweed intake will also be
beneficial. There are so many things interfering with iodine uptake in our
thyroids that this warrants some serious attention. You can also google
"iodine cured my depression". I can honestly say it did for me as well. What
fefifofu has said about "less bread" is extremely important.

------
partisan
Do you have a therapist or someone to talk to who will give you the ability to
just voice your thoughts without judgement? If not, I highly recommend that
you seek one out. If you have one and are unsatisfied, you should find a new
one.

In the meantime, I am not sure you have hit rock bottom. Rock bottom is where
you realize that there is a way up from here. You are still looking down into
an abyss. Still, this might be the point at which you change your life. Start
by changing your perspective. Every day, you have taken a step towards where
you are now. Were all of those steps fumbles or mistakes or failures? You
wouldn't be where you are if that is the case. There is evidence of success.
What are those successes? How did you deal with adversity to claim those
successes? There is evidence that you have overcome challenges.

From another angle: right now you have a good job and a career and you are
depressed. If you take a menial job, you will probably be unsatisfied, broke,
and depressed. If there is anything I've learned in this life: No matter where
you go, there _you_ are. Still you.

Lastly, start building upon and celebrating little successes starting today.
Any little thing will suffice. Every little thing. Do the same tomorrow. Make
your way up the chain until you are celebrating success at the scale you want.

Hang in there. You are not alone.

~~~
desp_programmer
I do have a therapist, but not a counselor. I will try and find one. I have a
very supportive spouse.

Thanks for your kind words.

------
helpingout
These are classic symptoms of clinical / major depression. You have not found
the right medications that help you yet. Keep seeing a psychiatrist who can
help you find the right medication. Each time you switch it can take 10-12
weeks to know if that medication works for you. Please don't give up on the
search for medication with a psychiatrist you trust.

If you find your cognitive abilities are lower than they used to be, don't
worry. Those will come back too; but are the last thing to return after
getting better.

~~~
desp_programmer
Yep, my problem solving skills have taken a hit in the past few months. The
progress is slow. I haven't been able to put enough hard work, it just seems
pointless. I hope it gets better. Thanks

------
alansmitheebk
I also suffer from depression and anxiety. I have since I was 15 years old. I
believe in runs in my family. I've only sought professional treatment for this
in the past several years. I see a psychiatrist and I take some medications.
It has been difficult. It still is difficult, but I'm doing pretty well.

I recommend that you seek out a psychiatrist. A lot of people don't understand
that chronic depression and anxiety are real ailments. They will tell you
things like "you're fine, it's just in your head!" Don't listen to these
people. They mean well but they are ignorant. Get the help you need.

Feel free to message me.

Good luck to you!

~~~
adultSwim
I also suggest seeing a therapist. Can be a helpful complement to a
psychiatrist.

------
slinkyavenger
The depression doesn't help, but this sounds more like stress. Don't know how
much it will help, as I don't suffer from depressin, but occasionally I'll get
myself into a rut like that, and I found a few things that help.

Sleep at night. No more late nights, give your brain a rest before bed. Limit
your caffeine to the morning - and no naps either. Sleep a full 8 hours, and
willingly go to bed early enough that you have an extra hour of leeway in the
morning. You'll feel tired until your body adjusts, but it will.

Get some cardio in - go for a run, ride a bike, or swim. Do something to get
your heart rate up. Your body will naturally reward you, and will help calm
you down mentally. Pay attention to your body, and add more cardio as you can
tolerate it.

Keep a day-to-day list of things that you have to accomplish, and update it as
part of your morning routine. I would recommend the Bullet Journal method,
since that's been working for me. This will help you keep on track and see
what you've actually accomplished.

Break down tasks that seem too daunting into smaller portions. Something that
may sound simple like deploying an application can be overwhelming until it's
broken down into smaller steps. Smaller steps also lead to more frequent wins,
which will act as encouragement since you'll get to see progress.

And finally, don't expect to get so many things done per day. Focus on one or
two things and work on them. If you add more than that, you'll just compound
your stress which will turn into a vicious cycle because you'll constantly
feel behind on your work.

Good luck, you're in a spot that plenty of people have been in, including
myself, but even if this isn't it, there /is/ a way out.

~~~
desp_programmer
This, exactly! I have problem sleeping early at night. Thoughts and anxiety
prevent me from sleeping. I don't have insomnia, I feel very sleepy, but very
afraid and restless.

Also, I get overwhelmed by any task at hand. It starts getting procrastinated.
Fear creeps in. Confidence takes a hit.

------
stlHusker
Sounds like you might be suffering from "imposter syndrome". A good number of
high functioning, highly productive people who really care about their work
suffer from this. It's normal and once you learn to control is, it can
differentiate you from your peers.

[http://lifehacker.com/overcoming-impostor-syndrome-what-
to-d...](http://lifehacker.com/overcoming-impostor-syndrome-what-to-do-when-
you-feel-1651827849)

------
neurohax
I suggest that you take a different approach to dealing with your depression
and anxiety, brain biochemistry is only a link in a huge cause-effect chain.
If you win the lottery you may experience a big dopamine high, but a dopamine
high won't make you win the lottery.

View your brain as a super computer (which certainly is) and your personality
as an operating system which you must hack to get rid of bugs and malwares.
You must crack those thought patterns that make you feel miserable and recover
the full control of your system, you couldn't even get up on your feet if you
had lost all of your willpower.

(I am not saying that you drop medication, just that don't rely on it as the
only form of healing).

To feel Ok about programming again, try to have small personal projects which
are easy to complete. Find new ways to deal with boring, monotonous and
complex tasks at work. Rescue an old hobbie like playing guitar or find a new
one.

EDIT:

I see these small buddhist koans as very insightful from a psychological -
rather than religious - point of view. Basically mind suffering can only exist
if there is an ego to experience it, and if you find that this ego is just a
stream of recurrent thought patterns, you realize the absurd of fear and
anxiety.

Huike said to Bodhidharma, “My mind is anxious. Please pacify it.” Bodhidharma
replied, “Bring me your mind, and I will pacify it.” Huike said, “Although
I’ve sought it, I cannot find it.” “There,” Bodhidharma replied, “I have
pacified your mind.”

\----------------------------------------------------------

A Zen student came to Bankei and said: "Master, I have an ungovernable temper
-- how can I cure it?" "Show me this temper," said Bankei, "it sounds
fascinating." "I haven't got it right now," said the student, "so I can't show
it to you." "Well then" said Bankei, "bring it to me when you have it." "But I
can't bring it just when I happen to have it," protested the student. "It
arises unexpectedly, and I would surely lose it before I got it to you." "In
that case," said Bankei, "it cannot be part of your true nature. If it were,
you could show it to me at any time. When you were born you did not have it,
and your parents did not give it to you -- so it must come into you from the
outside.(...)"

~~~
desp_programmer
Thanks @neurohax. Your advice will help.

------
realcr
Stop with those medications. Psychologists and doctors these days tend to fix
everything by putting you under some generic label and give you some generic
medication. Medication is a good fix if you have some inflammation in your
elbow and you take antibiotics for a week or two, but taking medications for
longer than that is just plain wrong. Usually it will only deal with the
symptoms, while hiding the real problems.

I don't know you personally, but let me give you my general opinion about
solving your problem:

\- " I was diagnosed with depression a few years ago and since then have made
peace with it" \- Don't let other people tell you what you have, even if they
have a PhD. What if this guy was wrong? Some doctor told me 10 years ago that
I will never be able to walk properly, because knees don't heal. Guess what,
it did heal. I run 10 Kilometers for fun every Friday.

\- Start exercising. Go for some martial art if you can. Do it at least twice
a week.

\- Stop with the news. Any kind of news. Read a good long book instead.

\- Meet some good friends, and do it often.

\- Don't give up to yourself. Don't work at a boring non challenging job. It
will rot your soul from the inside. Keep up with the challenging work. You
don't have to go over your head, always aim just a bit higher than your
comfort zone. If you feel things are too difficult for you at this point, ask
your team to go easy for a while. No shame in doing that.

Life is beautiful. Do your best to enjoy your time here.

~~~
mtrpcic
While I appreciate the sentiment you're going for, it should be notes that you
have no authority to give medical advice, and OP should not go off his
prescriptions based on your comment. What you should have said (and what OP
should do) is to have a discussion about that possibility with his or her
primary care physician. I don't care what the circumstances are, people should
not accept unsolicited medical advice from anonymous users on the internet
without fact checking with a doctor. Not all doctors push pills the way you're
describing.

------
nikolasavic
Things WILL get better.

It takes time to find the right medication, but if you don't feel better
within 2 weeks tell your doctor and they'll give your something. I've had
people close to me go through the same thing and it took a while to finally
hone in on something that works. I know it must feel like the most hopeless
and frustrating situation, but hang in there. Something out there will work,
you just need patience.

Just remember that it's not your fault. Good luck.

~~~
desp_programmer
Thanks, but the most difficult part is to convince myself that it's not my
fault. It always seems my fault.

------
thinksocrates
I would encourage you to try meditation. It's not a cure for depression, but
it can have effects that help. In the Zen tradition, Brad Warner's books have
been very helpful to me. [http://www.amazon.com/Hardcore-Zen-Monster-Movies-
Reality/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Hardcore-Zen-Monster-Movies-
Reality/dp/086171380X)

------
kasey_junk
This sounds like a medical issue not a career one. I would focus on finding
medical help from a competent professional.

------
dreamdu5t
Maybe .... just maybe... you don't like programming that much. Maybe... just
maybe... sitting on a computer 5 days a week all day to make some other guy
rich IS kind of depressing.

THAT'S OKAY. You can do other stuff. You don't have to be a programmer for the
rest of your life. You don't. Don't listen to HN people just telling you to
take pills and get on with it. Jesus christ.

If you feel like working the same kind of job that is going pretty much
nowhere is pointless... IT IS. That's not necessarily depression or some kind
of mental illness.

------
warrenb
Work on finding things you can do without anxiety. It will likely be something
very different from programming, but it will make you happy! That is the key.
You must focus on your own happiness. It will be a tough transition, but
consider it. Maybe just do some thought experiments (like "what if I were to
get involve with art?" or "what if I built an app to help volunteers do . . .
?".

Go slow, but look into very, very different areas for a potential match. Think
about YOU and happiness.

The very best of luck to you, my friend!

~~~
desp_programmer
Thanks @warrenb. Hopefully this helps.

------
sidcool
All I can say is that it gets better, involves a combination of fighting back
and staying put to weather the storm. I don't have a sure shot advice for you.
Good luck.

------
Mz
What changed in the past few weeks? Look at this as possibly a somatopsychic
issue. Look at dietary changes or other health changes. But also look at other
stressors, like breaking up with your SO or having a falling out with a family
member. Depression typically comes from one of two sources: 1) wonky brain
chemistry, which is a medical issue or 2) some kind of real world problem that
leaves you feeling helpless, often that problem is social in nature.

Best of luck.

~~~
desp_programmer
Not much has changed. My diet, routine etc is the same. My problem is mainly
due to wonky brain chemistry, but I haven't faced such an episode in a couple
of years.

~~~
Mz
Hey, I did not see this yesterday.

I have a very serious medical condition. As a side effect, it sometimes jacks
up my brain chemistry suddenly and very badly. I have spent nearly 15 years
working to get a handle on it and I have made substantial progress. I am
pretty confident something has changed in your life. You just do not know what
it is.

There is research linking diet and depression. The most solid stuff concerns
the role that certains fats/oils play and the impact they have on brain
inflammation.

Look some of that up. Start a food diary. I have a food blog where I talk some
about things like that (and I was a mess the day I wrote my last entry):
Http://miceats.blogspot.com

If you email me or leave comments, I would be happy to have feedback or
questions and you can shape the direction the blog goes to some degree by
giving me some feedback.

Best of luck.

------
cweagans
Go back to a doctor (preferably a real psychiatrist, rather than a doc in the
box type place) and get on a different depression medication. There are an
incredible number of combinations and medications that you can get on, each
treating depression just a little differently.

For what it's worth, my fiance and I have both had a lot of success with
Wellbutrin.

I'm not a doctor, but every symptom you listed sounds exactly like depression.
Fix that, and you're golden.

------
JSeymourATL
Just to echo the recommendation on exercise. Can you muster the strength to
run/walk/rake leaves?

I won't pretend it's THE answer-- but it can help significantly >
[http://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/exercise-and-
dep...](http://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/exercise-and-depression-
report-excerpt)

------
mrits
Wake up very early, don't take naps, start exercising. This works for me but
I'm certainly not trained to give medical advice.

~~~
desp_programmer
Wow, waking up early helps? I generally find it difficult waking up early.

------
scoreponok
There is evidence that meditation can help with anxiety/depression. I've
experienced depression through varying life circumstances although never
clinical depression. In these times of distress i began meditating, and have
not stopped as i find it helps me.

------
adultSwim
Talk to your physician. You should let them know what's going on. Perhaps
adjust medication. Suggest talking to them if you are thinking about going off
meds (at least have them taper you down so your body doesn't freak out by
going cold turkey)

------
kaonashi
Sounds like you're burnt out and need to develop other interests besides
programming.

------
desp_progrmmer1
I am the original OP. I got locked out due to the no procrastination
settings...Sorry. I will reply through this account.

------
mattmanser
If you read this another thing to try is CBT. It gives you a framework to deal
with anxiety and bring it back under control.

There are books that you can work through or you can do a course (probably
better). CBT is supposed to be very effective against anxiety. It is actually
quite a short program (10 to 20 weeks).

------
sidcool
EDIT - Fuck throwaways. I am desp_programmer and desp_programmer1.

HN has been of great help to me. I owe it to the community.

------
adultSwim
Therapy

If you can afford it, take some time off.

------
richardjennings
bounce

