
Tesla Model 3 = 24% of Small and Midsize Luxury Car Sales in USA - Osiris30
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/07/tesla-model-3-24-of-small-midsize-luxury-car-sales-in-usa/
======
elbelcho
Note that all the Tesla sales numbers in the article are estimates by the
author of the article. There are no sources cited in the article. Other
articles on this site from this same author are very clearly biased in favor
of Tesla and electric cards in general. I would take this article with a grain
of salt to say the least.

FTA: "Tesla reports quarterly sales and does not break them out by country or
region. Eventually, we get registration data from Europe, China ( _educated
estimates_ at least), and Canada and can then make a more solid _estimate of
US sales_ for the quarter, as well as monthly sales estimates. However, _it’s
a bit early for all of that since we don’t have September numbers from most
countries yet_. Even our data-loving friend and contributor Jose Pontes of EV
Volumes didn’t want to venture out too far on a limb and provide an early
estimate that he might have to walk back. That said, looking at previous
months’ data, September figures from the Netherlands and Norway, and deeper
historical data, I feel comfortable estimating Model 3 sales between 40,000
and 50,000 in the US in the third quarter. For this report, I’ve settled on
43,000."

~~~
MrFoof
For those truly wanting to do the due diligence, GoodCarBadCar does maintain a
ton of sales data -- even down to by model, by month -- for the US and Canada

[http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/us-vehicle-sales-figures-by-
mod...](http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/us-vehicle-sales-figures-by-model/#vwspc-
section-5)

~~~
travisporter
That is depressing... top three by a wide margin are pick up trucks.

------
zarro
They are wonderful cars and I have never heard anyone not loving the driving
experience.

The only concern that I think is preventing growth (Other than production of
course) - is the concern about long term reliability.

If you buy a camry or prius you know almost for a fact, that your going to
drive 200k miles without a problem, and if there is one, its recognized as an
engineering failure and the dealership fixes it for free - and fast.

But with Tesla, there are lots of rumors that the queue for getting stuff
fixed it really long, and that after warranty expires, really expensive.

What I am really scared of is another "BMW" style reliability experience,
which I would consider to be a catastrophic failure on the part of Tesla.

Edit - also accidents "caused" by "autopilot" software, and liability is still
a big question.

~~~
ses1984
What dealership is going to fix for free the problem you run into at
8years/150k miles?

~~~
deadmetheny
The kind of problem caused by a manufacturing defect that leads to a recall.
Parent's overall point is that you can effectively drive these cars 200k+
miles until the wheels fall off, and if you can't, it's due to a defect like
that. Tesla is a younger company and it's not yet apparent how the vehicle's
end-of-life will play out like it is for these sorts of vehicles.

~~~
whamlastxmas
Aren't there plenty of Teslas out there with 200k+ miles?

~~~
semi-extrinsic
Anecdotally, but looking at older Model S on the local Craigslist equivalent,
I see two listings right now that are ~6 years old with ~120k miles and say
"recently replaced entire battery pack under warranty". If whatever fault that
was happens to another Model S after the warranty expires, it's going to be a
total writeoff. These cars are being sold now for below $30k (equivalent) with
almost two years left of warranty.

------
bryanlarsen
For those who are thinking "the Model 3 isn't a luxury car", the model 3 is
selling at about half the rate of the Camry or Civic.

[http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/honda/honda-
civic/](http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/honda/honda-civic/)

Pretty impressive, IMO.

~~~
messick
Your link shows that more Civics were sold by the third week of February than
even the biased estimate in this post says Tesla is going to sell all year.
For Camry the comparison is even worse.

~~~
bryanlarsen
My link gives monthly figures, not weekly figures.

------
SEJeff
I'd never in my life have thought I'd have bought a car > $50,000 and here I
am with a AWD LR Model 3 and loving it! My other car was a 2011 Ford Fiesta.
If you don't want to purchase one, don't do a test drive. Once my wife and I
did a test drive in a Model S, we were both sold on a Tesla.

~~~
peapicker
To be honest, the Tesla interior leaves me cold. It feels corporate, like
being in a nice chair driving a 17" laptop to work. Feels soulless to me.

I really hate touch screens and have opted personally for a similarly
expensive car with lots of switches and dials that I don't have to look at to
make sure I'm on the right one. (Mini Clubman, with basically every option,
literally months before they added a touchscreen entertainment system)

~~~
SEJeff
Yeah that's an entirely fair critique (I mentioned the Audi and Mercedes
interiors being way nicer in a followup in this thread).

I'm ok with a more spartan interior as driving is just so much more enjoyable.
The regenerative breaking takes some real getting used to, but once you've
gotten used to it and you do 1 pedal highway driving (assuming you're not
using auto-pilot) it is just so much less work. Most of the real fanciness in
the Tesla is around making driving more enjoyable. I got the Model 3 AWD LR
(not the performance model) and know I can out accelerate virtually ever other
non-Tesla on the road. If someone wants to be a jerk and cut me off it is
pretty much impossible unless they're in a super car (or another Tesla). Not
being a gear head or car fanatic it just gives me more options when driving.
That is worth a simpler interior. I was also fine with the crappy interior of
my 2011 Ford Fiesta however, so we have different tastes.

The Porsche Taycan is the first electric car that seems to start to compete
with a Tesla. The soon to be released Volkswagen ID.3 also looks like a pretty
solid Model 3 competitor. The future holds a lot of options in this space, so
you don't have to drive a Tesla to enjoy the all torque all the time driving
of an electric drivetrain.

~~~
geoka9
> If someone wants to be a jerk and cut me off it is pretty much impossible

Why such an adversarial mentality? Why not just let people change lanes if
there's enough room in front of you?

~~~
SEJeff
I lived in Los Angeles for 6.5 years, where people are utter nightmares on the
highway. You have to be very aggressive in traffic. Not because I want to be,
but because I would put on a blinker and someone would speed up just because I
was trying to get over.

~~~
geoka9
Oh, you mean they cut you off when you're trying to change over. That's
terrible, we get that here (Vancouver) a lot, but I doubt the ability to
rapidly accelerate would help much. There's usually a car in front and racing
the jerk for the limited space behind it would create all kinds of dangerous
situations.

~~~
xeromal
To drive in LA is to drive in dangerous situations sadly, playing it safe will
only put you at a higher risk of being rearended or cut off and someone
slamming their brakes on you. It sucks, but I don't see any other way. Once
enough selfish people are in the batch, it forces everyone else to be selfish.

------
x3haloed
This is really important to me, because it's showing up all of the other
automakers dragging their feet on making electric cars - giving this excuse
and that excuse why it doesn't make sense or it can't be done. It's forcing
them to acknowledge that electric is the future, and they're going to have to
go electric to stay relevant. I think it's safe to say at this point that Musk
has done his job, regardless of the future of Tesla.

~~~
usaphp
Most of the people I know who got Tesla instead of similarly priced
Audi/Bmw/Mercedes did that for “auto pilot” and being electric for some of
them was actually a downside.

~~~
goshx
It is hard to believe when the fact it is electric makes it cheaper to charge,
more convenient, and provides quicker acceleration. Not to mention the
environmental reasons.

------
nanijoe
I have a Chevy Bolt and a Model 3 in my household. Of course I much prefer to
drive the Model 3, but the Chevy bolt is also all electric , goes about 240
miles on a single charge and costs about $20k less than the Model 3. Why more
people don't get a Chevy Bolt, is a mystery to me.

~~~
cowmix
While I love my 2013 Volt, GM has not release ONE software update (that
changes anything I can detect) since I bought it. The car I bought in 2013 is
the car I have now. All my TM3 friends have a car that constantly improves
constantly in both dramatic and trivial ways.

~~~
driverdan
Is there something wrong with your Volt that needs updating?

I have no interest in owning a car that tracks everything I do and is the
control of someone else.

~~~
fattire
You can opt out of data sharing.

I don't know if they had "something wrong" when initially purchased- they were
great cars already, but in the last year or so Model 3s have had braking
distance improved, a 4-camera dashcam added, a security sentry mode added,
games added w controller support, a Netflix/YouTube/hulu theater, new music
steaming (Spotify) on top of existing slacker, two types of self-summoning,
new remote controls via the phone app, improved range, traffic visualizations,
energy usage visualizations, new crash avoidance systems, faster
supercharging, better cold weather improvements, a refreshed/refined ui,
improved navigation, better driver personalization, fun Easter eggs, camping
mode, better acceleration, new 3d climate control visualizations, much better
lane keeping & "drive on nav" with auto lane changes, dog safety mode, track
mode, and many more I'm forgetting.

Known to be coming in the next major versions- everything from user-selectable
horn and pedestrian safety sounds ti improved "come to me" summoning and
suggestions keep coming.

All these incremental improvements are delivered OTA.

Was there something wrong before? The longer braking distance might have
required a trip to the dealership to fix on a traditional car, but otherwise,
not really.

Is there any doubt these cars are improving significantly after purchase in
both large and small ways?

~~~
fattire
(And as Pavon reminds me- regular security updates...)

------
tyfon
I have to say if anyone are in doubt about getting one, for me personally the
experience of driving the car trumps all other issues I've had with Tesla. I
used to be a A to B car person, now I drive for fun all the time. I make up
excuses just to drive.

Tesla is a startup company and can be a bit difficult to deal with but I will
repeat what John Carmac said about his Tesla [1], "It's my happiness machine".

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua-
ikbZVofc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua-ikbZVofc) [VIDEO]

------
Wheaties466
I don't see this mentioned anywhere. But the Tesla model 3 has the highest
saftey rating of any car.

disclaimer I am pro tesla.

[https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-
se...](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-sedan/2019)

~~~
metaphor
> _But the Tesla model 3 has the highest saftey rating of any car._

Confirmation bias.

The overall rating is also held by BMW 3 Series, Lexus ES 350, and Mercedes-
Benz C-Class (which all rated better in child seat anchors ease of use)...and
that's just in the midsize luxury cars category[1].

[1] [https://www.iihs.org/ratings/class-summary/midsize-luxury-
ca...](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/class-summary/midsize-luxury-cars)

~~~
xedeon
Not really...

You only mentioned IIHS but the Model 3 has been consistent globally on safety
test results (Cherry picking?).. Along with NHSTA and IIS in the U.S.

While BMW's crash avoidance systems also failed miserably while the Model 3
aced it the test because of the superior auto emergency braking:

[https://twitter.com/tesla_truth/status/1160779803349282818](https://twitter.com/tesla_truth/status/1160779803349282818)

Tesla Model 3 awarded 5-star ANCAP safety rating in Australia

[https://thedriven.io/2019/07/30/tesla-
model-3-awarded-5-star...](https://thedriven.io/2019/07/30/tesla-
model-3-awarded-5-star-ancap-safety-rating-in-australia/)

Model 3 earns 5-Star Safety Rating from Euro NCAP | Tesla

[https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-earns-5-star-safety-
ratin...](https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-earns-5-star-safety-rating-euro-
ncap)

~~~
metaphor
Now read one step above[1] my remark.

The parent made a false assertion (the claim of "highest saftey (sic) rating
of any car") _while specifically citing IIHS ratings_. I corrected this
assertion with fact by citing a higher-level IIHS reference. That's not cherry
picking...that's proper constraint.

In contrast, you'll have to do a lot better than actual cherry-picked Twitter
garbage, blog spam, and self-referencing Telsa press releases.

> _Along with NHSTA and IIS in the U.S._

Remind us who IIS is again??

I'll be happy to digest any independent NHTSA OVSC test reports on the subject
that you point us towards...coincidentally, I've been shits-and-grins
analyzing a bunch of FMVSS 106 and 218 test reports in preparation for next
year's racing season, so I suspect they won't put me to sleep...to be sure,
not that I really care for Tesla.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21182264](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21182264)

------
roland35
Great job for Tesla! I was interested in an EV but ended up with a Volt myself
- the expiring GM $7,500 plus huge discounts GM was having after announcing
after shutting down Volt production let me get a $40k car for under $24k.

If I had to pay full MSRP I would have preferred a Tesla (or Bolt) and go full
EV rather than PHEV! I do see more and more Telsas on the road, more than
Priuses, Leafs, or any other EV/hybrid.

~~~
sremani
Good choice - Chevy Volt is one of the most under-rated cars ever!

------
gnicholas
I'm curious to know how people who bought Teslas thought about these pros and
cons:

• lower maintenance costs than ICE vehicles

• higher insurance costs than ICE vehicles

• possibility of long delays for repairs (moreso than other EVs)

• possibility of company going out of business, and impact on software
maintenance, software updates, and parts availability (also moreso than other
EVs)

~~~
xedeon
I always wanted a Tesla ever since the Model S came out in 2012. But have been
skeptical since I have not owned an electric vehicle before. Did a ton of
research and asked questions from actual owners and ignored the noise from
media outlets.

June of last year, I finally got a used 70D Model S from Tesla since it comes
with 4yrs/50K mile warranty for $47K to minimize the risk. Delivery experience
was not the best but Tesla made it right.

I would occasionally drive my wife's MB SUV and just couldn't get over how
dated everything felt. Decided to trade that SUV in for a Model X and now we
are an all Tesla household (never would have imagined this). I traded in the
Model S for a Model 3 last July since it's more efficient/fun commuter car and
I grin every time I get in it and often find excuses to drive it. The product
is that good. It changed the whole driving experience for me.

Maintenance so far has just been tires and washer fluid. Lower insurance cost
through USAA. Zero issues with repair even though the closest service center
is 200+ miles way in Salt Lake City.

Service is handled by two Mobile Service techs in our area because of the
interestingly fast adoption here in the Boise, Idaho area... I schedule via
the app they call within 24hrs to confirm and they show up either at our
driveway or work parking lot to fix issues.

If they need it longer, they also drop off a loaner. The pundits have been
saying that Tesla will never make it or will go out of business since 2009.
Yet here we are in 2019 and YoY growth and sales are still growing. Amazon,
Apple or Google will quickly snatch up Tesla if it ever get's in peril.

My experience has been eloquently put by Chamath Palihapitiya on this video:

[https://youtu.be/lx6GJADrflk?t=255](https://youtu.be/lx6GJADrflk?t=255)

~~~
gnicholas
How is the Model 3 a more efficient/fun commuter car? Is it just used versus
new, or is the Model 3 also better than a new Model S for you?

~~~
xedeon
> How is the Model 3 a more efficient/fun commuter car? Is it just used versus
> new, or is the Model 3 also better than a new Model S for you?

Excluding the obvious that Model 3 is smaller and weighs less less, the drive
units on the Model S/X are conventional induction motors.

The dual-motor versions of the Model 3 have an induction motor in the front
and a permanent magnet synchronous reluctance motor (PMSRM) in the back making
it much more efficient:

[https://evannex.com/blogs/news/taking-tesla-s-model-3-to-
get...](https://evannex.com/blogs/news/taking-tesla-s-model-3-to-get-a-
glimpse-of-the-future-of-automobiles)

The new Model S/X "Raven" updates were able to leverage this new (PMSRM) drive
unit tech which also improved their efficiency up to a record 370miles:

[https://www.tesla.com/blog/longest-range-electric-vehicle-
no...](https://www.tesla.com/blog/longest-range-electric-vehicle-now-goes-
even-farther)

[https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/24/18513899/tesla-model-
s-x-...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/24/18513899/tesla-model-s-x-range-
upgrade-270-325-miles-supercharger-200kw)

The Model 3 is more fun to drive since it's more nimble. Though the ride
quality and cabin noise on the S/X is better. The S feels like a boat, while
Model X feels like a tank. The Model 3 has improved battery cooling and "track
mode" which you can't do on the S/X since both will overheat (2012 design?).

Lastly, the Model 3 is also the only Tesla that can take advantage of the
maximum rate of 250kW that was introduced on the V3 superchargers which can
charge up to a rate of 1K mile an hour.

------
new_realist
The sedan market is small and shrinking: there is a reason Ford has abandoned
it. Tesla should be viewed in relation to the entire passenger vehicle market.
According to [http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/us-vehicle-sales-figures-by-
mod...](http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/us-vehicle-sales-figures-by-model/#vwspc-
section-5)

... The Model 3 ranks 50th or so.

------
blobbers
Why do all the real manufacturers have very precise numbers yet Tesla has an
estimated number?

~~~
bryanlarsen
Other manufacturers sell through dealers, Tesla doesn't.

~~~
bryanlarsen
In other words, for other manufacturers there are several places in the supply
chain to get the numbers from. For Tesla, the only place to get numbers is
from Tesla itself.

------
InTheArena
I still think it's only a matter of time before Apple takes another bite at
Tesla. They want into the space, and are just too far back on the technology
curve. They could engage someone to build the car for them, ala what they did
for Foxconn, but they are not going to deliver better technology then what
Tesla already has. There is a insane amount of overlap between Tesla owners
and Apple's most lucrative customers, and Tesla's owner satisfaction is
through the roof. It would be pricey, but I can see Apple making a huge bet
there.

------
losvedir
I have trouble squaring this ostensibly fantastic news with the constant dire
predictions about the stock.

Is it just the stock is considered by some people to be simply overpriced, or
is Tesla the company in danger of going bankrupt? I'd like to get a Tesla, but
I worry about the company going under and being left with a car that has no
resale value or ability to be maintained.

~~~
martinald
Problem is Tesla is losing billions of dollars selling these cars currently
with no real profitability in sight. Tesla also has $11bn+ of debt on its
balance sheet. Elon keeps promising profitability but then misses it badly.

~~~
beat
Tesla is a growth company. Being "profitable" is irrational and stupid. They
should be farming every cent they make into production, borrowing every cent
that will be loaned, and selling stock. Why turn a $1.00 into $1.10 this year
when you can turn it into $15 in ten years? This is how startups and growth
companies work. Profitability is a very narrowminded view of how to run a
company.

The goal isn't to turn a profit next year. The goal is to become a bigger
company than Apple, to wipe out entire car companies in the process, and to
change how we power the cars we drive.

~~~
adwn
> _Why turn a $1.00 into $1.10 this year when you can turn it into $15 in ten
> years?_

Because there's a very good chance you go bankrupt in year 3, turning your
$1.00 into $0.00 instead of $15.

> _Being "profitable" is irrational and stupid. [...] Profitability is a very
> narrowminded view of how to run a company._

What a weird, _weird_ thing to say. As if it were straight out of the Silicon
Valley TV show.

~~~
1123581321
Think of Tesla as maximizing the expected value of its entire profitability
over its lifetime. Although you would like it to cease investing in new cars
and maximize its profitability now, it has a good chance of making a _lot_
more money by continuing to invest in itself. The odds are good that there
will be a generation of Tesla cars which primary job is to make money for
shareholders, and they will make so much more than is possible now (we can
look at the existing automakers for examples of this level of earnings) that
the profits exceed the present value of possible profits.

It’s different than the scenarios parodied in Silicon Valley, where companies
with no business model, who _can’t_ be profitable with their product, posture
in order to be acquired to the extent that their founders believe the
posturing.

~~~
adwn
> _Think of Tesla as maximizing the expected value of its entire profitability
> over its lifetime._

I'm familiar with the discounted cash flow model of valuing a company. You're
missing the point: If they keep losing money, they need more investments. At
some point, they won't get any more investments, because potential investors
won't believe that the company will be profitable in the future.

> _[...] it has a good chance of making a lot more money by continuing to
> invest in itself._

Only if they don't go bankrupt in the near future, which is a very real
possibility. Then all this talk about growth and "investing in itself" will be
useless – they will make zero money.

~~~
beat
Which happens to a lot of companies. Big deal. You invest in a growth company,
you are expected to recognize the risk involved in that investment.

At the moment, Tesla seems to have no real trouble raising the kind of capital
they need in order to maintain the level of growth they're experiencing. But
it's going to take a lot more growth before they're on par with GM or Toyota
or the like. And since that's the obvious goal, it's foolish to be
"profitable".

------
totaldude87
I think there is a dilemma at Tesla whether to go with a mid range ($20-25k
car) with limited miles(limited performance,etc etc, you get it...)vs going
for the mid luxury to full on luxury ranged cars.

Also 2020-21 would be the years where mass market car companies like Honda /
Toyota might release their cars and my guess it would start with ~$25k range

~~~
judge2020
In an interview, Elon said:

> let's say ultimately getting like a twenty five thousand dollar car [...] if
> we work really hard we maybe could do that in three years [with time and
> scale]

[https://youtu.be/MevKTPN4ozw?t=280](https://youtu.be/MevKTPN4ozw?t=280)

~~~
hnburnsy
Is a base Tesla really too expensive, I mean the new Jeep Gladiator can top
out at 55,000?

------
Animats
Cadillac sold about 154,000 cars last year, but they're not listed.

The Tesla Model 3 is heavier than the Cadillac CT5 and CTS. All are 5 seats.
The Cadillac CTS has a 1.5" longer wheelbase than the Tesla Model 3. The
definition of "small and midsize" seems to have been carefully chosen here.

------
coding123
In my recent trip down the i5 corridor the M3 was the most common vehicle
after the Camry.

~~~
neogodless
I'm surprised you're seeing that many performance trim level BMWs.

~~~
sillypuddy
M3 in this context means Tesla Model 3

~~~
cowmix
TM3 is the correct abbreviation.

~~~
coding123
Thanks I'll use that in the future!

------
closeparen
What's with the huge dropoff between Q4 2018 and Q1 2019?

~~~
gibolt
Q4 was the last month for $7500 incentive in the US, so they opened up to new
markets. Thousands of cars were on ships headed to other countries which
aren't counted as 'delivered' until over a month later.

Q1 is also consistently the weakest quarter for the overall car market.

~~~
Robotbeat
It's remarkable that Tesla is making delivery records even though they've lost
over $5000 of incentive per car in the US. For a lot of vehicles, that's the
entire profit margin. And they're doing that on top of historically low gas
prices and without a mid-level SUV or truck.

Tesla is proving more robust than the common narrative.

~~~
gibolt
The worst part for Tesla is that the US federal tax rebate can still be used
by the competition that is starting to arrive. Tesla fought such an uphill
battle to make electric vehicles mainstream, but now can be undercut by $7500
by the incumbents entering late in the game.

This is a double-edged sword, since competition is good. Competitors also are
unable to make the same profit margin as Tesla for now.

~~~
Robotbeat
Right, they're fighting that competition right now (eTron has been available
for months in the US and its sales are declining) but are still crushing it.
In fact, it's disappointing that few have really risen to Tesla's challenge.
Taycan does (I'm impressed by the higher voltage of the battery), but at much
greater cost and still doesn't quite meet the highest Tesla trim performance.

The EV credit system is unfair for domestic EV makers who have taken EVs
seriously (GM and Tesla) and advantages foreign EV makers like VW group
companies (who count as separate companies according to the tax credit but can
use the same platform for their EVs).

------
not_a_cop75
The only reason I'm not interested in the Tesla is the overall unavailability
of replacement parts.

~~~
spectrum1234
Is this a major concern? How often are people in accidents on average? I
supposed one day this could happen to me. Or hopefully I wouldn't get unlucky
and have a normal experience in this case. Regardless, I just haven't needed
much body work over the last 15 years at all.

I assume this issue is improving too.

~~~
not_a_cop75
I had two minor accidents in 12 months, so yes, it's a major concern. If I
were in a Tesla, it would still be drivable today, but something about having
a car that is too expensive or hard to fix is not something I like or need.

The discovery I have made is that timing commutes away from rush hour does
more to prevent accidents than anything else.

------
agumonkey
Lots of reassuring news about Tesla recently. Odd. And reassuring. Which is
odd.

------
olyjohn
Duh. Even if the numbers in the article were accurate, nobody besides Tesla
buyers are purchasing cars. Everybody else is buying Crossovers and SUVs. Ford
and Chevrolet don't even have mid size cars anymore.

~~~
goshx
Sometimes I wonder if the reason for that isn't because there wasn't an option
like what Tesla provides now.

Anyways, Tesla is also heading that direction with the Model Y (2020) and the
truck they are expected to announce in November.

------
NDizzle
It’s a luxury car? I haven’t ever considered the 3 as a luxury car. The 5,
sure, but not the 3.

~~~
moufestaphio
The price puts it well within in the luxury car range.

~~~
NDizzle
Shouldn't it be the other way around? It's expensive but super shitty compared
to actual luxury cars. When Hyundai trumps your build quality you have serious
issues.

------
every1isbias
Tesla could (and for some, arguably does) make the best vehicles in the world
but if they can't figure out how to make them for a profit eventually and
inevitably Tesla will go broke. Also something I didn't know until reading the
article below is that Telsa doesn't even have IP on their batteries, they're
Panasonic batteries!

[https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2019/05/29/who-
wo...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2019/05/29/who-would-buy-
tesla-and-why/#69ecc79f3451)

[https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2019/01/22/wasnt-
tes...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2019/01/22/wasnt-tesla-
supposed-to-make-more-money-as-the-model-3-ramped/#7e928494c737)

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bryanlarsen
Tesla's gross margin is 15% GAAP. They have an overall loss is because of R&D
and capital expenditures etc. They could pull an Amazon and start posting
profits at any time. That would be stupid, but they could.

