
Shared e-scooters aren’t always as green as other transport options - EndXA
https://news.ncsu.edu/2019/08/impact-of-e-scooters/
======
melling
This story has been discussed 3 different times on HN within a little over a
day:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599127](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599127)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20597711](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20597711)

I think we’ve found a winning theme that resonates on HN.

------
jaxbot
There's important findings in here, but it also reminds me of reactions to
Prius, Tesla, public buses, etc., where people latch on to any viable excuse
to continue their wasteful status quo.

Scooters aren't perfect, just like everything else, but there's some
interesting innovations happening in micromobility that encourage more
walkable cities and greener commutes. I'm excited to see where the trends
head, even if the immediate scooter to car eco comparison is muddy.

~~~
thatfrenchguy
> that encourage more walkable cities and greener commutes

People using a bike that lasts 20 year is much greener than a shared scooter
that dies after 100 days of use.

Having more walkable communities start with removing cars from the streets,
adding density, by planning our cities. There is no magic tech that will fix
the status quo.

~~~
yholio
Early bikes probably had similar reliability problems. Once the scooter design
stabilizes, we will see refurbished units and mass recycling of consumables.

There is nothing inherently wasteful or prone to rapid breakdown in scooters;
the fact that there is economic reason to dump them after 100 days only points
out how inefficient is everything else and how improperly we tax environmental
damage.

~~~
Retric
They are prone to break down as complex machines dumped in random locations
out in the weather.

Scooters can last for years if kept inside and well cared for.

~~~
Scoundreller
Right, but this is about shared scooters without any of that.

------
adrianmonk
> _For example, taking the bus on a route with high ridership is usually more
> environmentally friendly than an e-scooter._

To be precise, as an individual making a choice how to get somewhere, taking
the bus on a route with low ridership is also environmentally friendly.

The decision to run the low-ridership bus on that route in the first place was
not too environmentally friendly (unless it's a long-term play to build up the
bus system), but that decision has already been made and the emissions are a
sunk cost. If you get on a bus that's running anyway, the additional emissions
are basically negligible.

Obviously what they're trying to analyze is averages across a population, and
they're right about that. But don't let it make you feel bad about riding a
low-ridership bus.

~~~
Theodores
You can hop on any scheduled flight and say that the plane was flying anyway
so there was no added environmental cost in you getting a seat.

Low ridership buses can form part of a wider network where the busy parts of
the network depend on the feeder services. Those feeder services also have to
offer round the clock service if people are to be bothered using them.

In the UK we got rid of the minor branch lines of the railway network thinking
people would drive to their nearest station and complete their journey by
rail. It never happened, people stayed in their cars and rail passenger
numbers declined.

You are never going to have a network with all seats filled at all times. Seen
that way then a transport service is getting it wrong if it is always at 100%
utilisation.

~~~
adrianmonk
The airplane thing is interesting because planes are expensive (and airlines
are for-profit), so they are careful about utilization and keep planes as
close to full as practical. Which means if you board that plane, you are
altering some stats that someone, somewhere is watching pretty closely. You
could easily be helping to tip the balance toward adding another flight to
that route or switching to a bigger plane for that flight.

I don't know the right math, but I would assume this averages out to something
near 1-to-1. That is, if, in the steady state, 1000 people take extra seats on
airplanes, presumably it averages out to about 1000 seats of extra capacity
being added.

And I suppose the concept must apply to low-ridership bus lines. If you ride
it, you could tip the balance toward keeping it going rather than canceling it
or consolidating it together with other routes. Maybe this is a bit less than
1-to-1, though, because transit agencies aren't just following rider behavior
but also trying to fulfill a mission to have good coverage of an area.

TLDR, maybe it does matter if you're near a utilization threshold that someone
is really paying attention to.

------
kristo
Was anybody arguing we should ditch bikes for scooters?

Why are so many "urbanists" dunking on scooters? Article after article
basically saying scooters are worse than cars, when the study doesn't say that
and fails to account for the many negative car externalities, like all of the
asphalt used to pave roads and parking spots, and the environmental
opportunity cost of those spaces, as just one example.

Cars are the enemy here, and scooters are on our side. Yes, we need to make
them last longer, and yes scooter companies should not be advertising as
"carbon free", but that doesn't mean we should stymie their momentum and push
the public back towards cars.

Most of the articles stemming from this study are horrible clickbait trash.
It's unbelievable.

------
yholio
> “The real impact comes largely from two areas: using other vehicles to
> collect and redistribute the scooters; and emissions related to producing
> the materials and components that go into each scooter.”

I think the first point can be drastically improved using city-wide electric
docking for scooters and encouraging users, via pricing, to leave them in such
points. Large vehicles will then be used to reshuffle scooters only to
compensate for assymetric demand, much less important than charging.

The materials point can be improved by increasing reliability of the platform
and mass recycling. Price competition and proper carbon and pollution taxing
can optimize this automatically.

~~~
lm28469
My dream would be an organized network of city sponsored docked electric
scooters/bikes that would be accessible through already existing public
transportation subscriptions.

But instead of that we have 10 different companies flooding cities with
thousands of vehicles knowing very well they will never ever be profitable
until there is only 1 left and they can finally increase their price.

Cities could even offer proper employment status and salary to the people
taking care of the fleet instead of the current less than ideal reward system.

~~~
9HZZRfNlpR
Probably you talk about America but quite a lot of cities in Europe are doing
it.

Instead of dropping your bike randomly, the city is covered with connection
points where you leave the machine. Like docks, where it locks and charges.
Since you can't let every company build their own hubs everywhere randomly,
it's city ran business.

Where I currently live it's covered if you have a monthly card for public
transportation but you can buy or pay separately too, just more expensive.

~~~
lm28469
Which city is that?

I'm in Berlin and it's complete chaos, even more than usual since they
introduced scooters a few months ago. We have at least 5 bicycle companies and
4 scooter ones.

[https://imgur.com/a/diAmFH9](https://imgur.com/a/diAmFH9)

~~~
9HZZRfNlpR
Tartu in Estonia has one: [https://visittartu.com/bike-share-
system](https://visittartu.com/bike-share-system) 70 stations for around 100k
city with a lot of dedicated bicycle tracks is well covered. I also know that
at least they are building something similar in Riga and some other eastern
cities have them. Which is a bit surprising, would have guessed countries with
less snow and stronger bicycle culture are gonna build these things first.

------
ajhurliman
I know the paper is only looking at how "green" each option is without taking
into consideration the value that they provide. Like when 7% of the responses
said that they otherwise would not have taken the trip, do we really want to
live in a society where simply don't move around?

I think we need to acknowledge that mobility is valuable and the answer to
urban transport isn't staying put.

------
jdc
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599127](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599127)

------
Cyclone_
If scooters end up being used as a replacement for walking/cycling it
certainly is not as green as those alternatives. I haven't seen a study as to
what they are replacing, but I can't imagine for the mile or so trips that
they are actually replacing cars.

------
sschueller
They are also dangerous.

I witness an accident a week and I do not spend much time around areas where
there are scooters.

People don't obey the laws, too many ride doubled up and many ride on the
sidewalk.

They ones affected most are blind and disabled people who get hit on the side
walk.

~~~
woah
I bike to work in downtown SF in one of the areas with the most scooters.
Often there are more scooters in bike lanes than bicycles. I have never seen
an accident, so your anecdote is not my experience.

I do often see people scooting without a helmet on streets with no protected
bike lane which makes me cringe, knowing how reckless with other’s lives many
car drivers are. In these situations, I think it’s better for people to ride
on the sidewalk. Nobody should have to sacrifice their lives for poor urban
planning, and the bruises from a pedestrian/scooter collision are much less
serious than the death or brain injury from a car/scooter collision.

~~~
tempsy
You having never seen a scooter accident is also an anecdote...

I was in San Diego last month, which has many times more scooters than San
Francisco, and I saw several people fall (though not hurt) off scooters.

~~~
bsagdiyev
The riders aren't exactly being safe either, in San Diego's case. I was at
Seaport Village last weekend and a girl on an electric scooter almost knocked
over my newborn's stroller since she was ripping and tearing around with no
care to pedestrians. I've used the scooters so I think they're not a terrible
idea but there needs to be some education and common sense around them I
think.

------
acd
Electric scooters should be built and designers to be easily repaired and
recycled. The current scooter designs looks like one time plastic garbage that
will end on the when its ens of life.

------
mirekrusin
What about impact on death? What about forecasting scenario where scooters
would take over majority of transportation and impact infrastructure?

------
jimmaswell
Regardless I love them for short distances. So nice not having to walk so much
outside at this con I'm at.

------
th0ma5
What advantages do they have over the $150 target model?

~~~
marcinzm
You don't have to figure out what to do with it when you get to your
destination or go on public transportation.

~~~
mschuster91
e-Scooters are small enough and, at least in Munich, allowed in public
transport. As for destination: lock it on a tree or take it into your office.

~~~
mrep
Do bikes and scooters not get stolen in europe? Literally everyone I know in
the US who bikes in a city has gotten 1 or multiple bikes stolen. My oldest
brother got 2 bikes stolen within 10 minutes of walking into a store and they
were locked to a bike rack. My other brother got his bike stolen within a week
of getting it and it was in a locked apartment garage! The guy I know from
work in seattle who bikes everywhere has gotten 3 bikes stolen.

Admittedly, that's the only 3 people I know who bike but it's not very
encouraging when you here about all of these thefts.

~~~
mschuster91
> Do bikes and scooters not get stolen in europe? Literally everyone I know in
> the US who bikes in a city has gotten 1 or multiple bikes stolen.

Depends on the place. In Munich, it's rare - Berlin however, commonplace. My
personal advice, get a decent lock and a GPS tracer embedded in the frame if
it's an expensive bike.

------
notatoad
Dupe from two days ago

