
Men Are the New College Minority - pmalynin
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/?single_page=true
======
vbtemp
From the article:

> Added Maloney: “There’s a lot of attention on empowering girls. I’m not
> saying there’s anything wrong with that, but males are the ones in crisis in
> education.”

It's no secret here that there is a crisis of masculinity and of men's role in
our society.

There are plenty of men at the top, and plenty in powerful positions.
Contemporary social justice movements certainly are aware of that. But what
they don't account for is this: most mean are _not_ in positions of power, and
a lot are living lives in the shadows of underemployment and partnerlessness.

In this environment men get squeezed at both ends: Painted as suspicious and
exploitative when successful, but still shamed and unable to find partners
when not successful. When people offer compelling messages that resonate with
men - take for example Jordan Peterson's message of living honestly, embracing
duty and responsibility, and promoting conscientious habits - it is
immediately pilloried as regressive or simply horrible. And we end up back
where we started: A relative handful of successful men that made it "over the
hump", and the rest who live in society's margins with little interest or
regard by broader society and increasingly distanced from wealth, mates, and
family. There will be fallout still for generations to come.

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lev99
Having more male teachers in K-12, with a specific need on the earlier years,
can help boys stay interested in education longer. 76% of the teachers are
female [0], with most of the male teachers teaching in later years. This isn't
a silver bullet, and I don't have advice on how to achieve this, but my gut
tells me this can help.

Male teachers provide male role models for boys to look up to.

Male teachers have a more personal understanding of what it is to be a boy.

Men and boys communicate differently than women and boys do.

Male teachers show boys that education is something males value enough with
their time and attention.

[0][https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28](https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28)

~~~
tenpies
Extremely anecdotal, but has anyone else also noticed an alarming amount of
anti-male sentiment in K-12 teachers? Even thinking back to my education, it
is pretty clear there was not just a lack of male educators, but also female
teachers who simply did not want boys to succeed.

~~~
wheaties
It was an open secret at my school. We knew which teachers were which and
passed down the "secrets" of how to exist in certain classrooms. I'm sure
there was similar feelings on the other side. When you're young, you tend to
only externalize that which impedes you.

~~~
bilbo0s
This.

I feel like it has been true that many teachers target boys to make them do
worse for a long time. I mean, let's be honest, there are always "those
people" out there. And it's probably been true for many different groups of
students by the way, not just boys. There are probably teachers who don't like
Asians, or what if you're hispanic? or... heaven forbid... what if you're
black for instance?

But I think, for ALL these students, the more helpful question to answer is,
how do we help them to successfully navigate this and other obstacles to their
education? Because they are going to run up against it, there's really nothing
they can do to avoid hitting that obstacle in today's world.

If we can find an answer to this question, we'd really make progress towards
improving outcomes in our educational system.

------
kough
I wish the authors had broken down the statistics better, but on the whole it
was refreshing to see a discussion around college not focused on the same few
elite private universities. The way we as a culture tell stories about college
is so disproportionately affected by those universities that it's hard to
really understand things like "student debt" or "rape on campus" \-- I forget
where I read it, but I believe that the average American college student is
involved in a 2-year community college. I think all discussions of "college"
need to specify what "college" means: private elite university, private
university, public university, community college.

Also, interesting to see how as soon as there is a gender disparity people
reach for the "pipeline problem" as the most likely explainer.

------
MollyR
College is a poor return on investment right now. I think more women should
avoid it too.

The cost of tuition is simply far too high for the real value, of course this
differs by majors and degrees. Overall its just not worth the debt load. I
think the overall drive to send people to college simply turned it into a a
high school diploma 2.0 except now we have soo many kids deep in soul crushing
debt.

At the same time jobs are decreasing in value or total to exported labor or
automation, we are really having multiple overlapping crises each making the
overall domestic situation worse.

It's really concerning. I'm fully expecting a social revolution from the post
millennials, whether it leads to good times or hard times, who knows.

But I do know I won't be sending my kids to a university in its current form,
I'm hoping Khan Academy becomes the model for replacement.

EDIT: my kids won't be going to college for another 16 years. I highly doubt
colleges won't undergo some kind of significant change.

~~~
lev99
I strongly disagree. If you judge an education by three factors you can see
there are opportunities to receive great ROIs from a college degree.

1) Which degree you receive.

2) Which institution you receive it from.

3) Your total out of pocket expenses for four years. (Tuition + Fees + Living
Expenses + Interest - Scholarships - Salaries)

My $55,000 out of pocket degree payed for itself and all opportunity costs in
5 years, and I fully enjoyed my college experience.

~~~
zaccus
I'm glad it worked out for you. Didn't for me. Going to college is probably
the worst decision I ever made.

~~~
ct0
Going to college is more then just being at a place.

~~~
zaccus
I know what going to college is. Save your platitudes.

------
godzillabrennus
Might be because Men are waking up to the reality that they can make more
money going to a trade school.

~~~
Caveman_Coder
That is probably part of it, but the work they'll be doing is more labor
intensive. I was a union electrician/power plant operator for nearly a decade
before I finished my degree in CS and took a job as a software developer. I'm
not in SV/NY/Seattle so my pay is roughly equal to what I was making as a
topped-out Journeyman, but the work is less stressful on the body.

In the trades, after the job was over or I had turned over to the oncoming
shift operator, I didn't think about work at all until my next shift, it was
great, my off-time was mine. It was much better mentally compared to now where
I have to have my phone on me at all times and respond to emails from our
customers (granted, my customers or Transmission System and Distribution
System operators controlling the electrical grid, so it is pretty critical
when the applications experience issues). There are pros and cons of each,
with pay being roughly equal (outside of the major tech hubs). Am I glad I
switched? Sometimes, but the skilled trades (electrician, pipe-fitter,
plumber, HVAC tech, welder, etc.) are definitely a good way to go if you want
to learn a useful skill and have a relatively stable middle class life.

~~~
virmundi
If they learn things! That’s a huge if. People in all jobs appear to only want
to learn in first five years and the be done. They don’t learn new things.
They don’t learn about new products. They just what they always do.

For example how many Floridian contractors know about Bora Care? From my
interactions, few. It poisons wood. Termites can’t eat it. In Florida you can
charge an extra 1k for a house and permanently protect the home from termites.
Few even know to offer as a perk on restoration. Think about it, for $75 plus
labor a reno contractor could termite proof your kitchen studs while they redo
the walls. Poor training.

~~~
ams6110
I think you're being a bit too sweeping, but your point doesn't apply only to
tradespeople at all. The good ones are constantly learning and keeping up with
new technology as much as any of us are. The lazy ones don't, and I know
plenty of developers who only learn something new when they have to, and
expect it to be delivered on a plate in the form of an offsite "training"
session.

Home renovation is also where a lot of bottom-feeders end up. It's very easy
to do and doesn't require much skill to get into.

~~~
Caveman_Coder
> "Home renovation is also where a lot of bottom-feeders end up. It's very
> easy to do and doesn't require much skill to get into."

When I was talking about skilled trades I was mainly referring to your
union/licensed/Journeyman types. We had continued training programs to keep up
with latest NEC/NFPA/ASHRAE/ASME changes. We also had the option of teaching
at the union hall (all apprentices work normal days and go to training at the
hall on Tues/Thurs) to earn a little bit extra money.

I've met good craftsman as well as lazy ones, but like you said, now that I'm
a full-time developer, the same still holds in our industry as I'm sure it
does in most industries.

------
noobermin
While I sympathize somewhat, I suspect (most likely due to my own biases) that
there is a strong economic class component to this trend they note. I think
it's more likely that wealthier men from wealthier families are more likely to
end up enrolled in college than poorer men or men or boys who come from lesser
means.

Like everything in America, just focusing on ethnic or gender groups _before_
class doesn't really work to reverse the more real disenfranchisement that
exists in society.

~~~
aetherson
Of course that's true (and it's the same for women: higher socio-economic
status is positively correlated with college matriculation and graduation
across sex and race lines).

But it's always been true, so what changed?

~~~
Caveman_Coder
What's changed is that while there are groups advocating for pretty much every
group, poor white men are lumped into the same category as rich white men, and
are seen as "not needing help" or being a part of the "ruling hierarchy" even
though they are poor. I think that is what OP was getting at, that is, by
looking first at race/gender, before class, you're alienating a whole group of
poor white males that don't see themselves as part of the dominant "white
male" narrative. They're struggling just like all the other poor people, but
told they "have it good" because they're white, and this is contrary to what
they experience day-in and day-out.

------
kbos87
What seems to be playing out on college campuses is in stark contrast to what
is playing out inside many employers. Our leadership is getting its feet held
to the fire to find more qualified female candidates for exec roles, which are
dominated by white men. Is this likely to equalize itself over time?

~~~
MollyR
My personal theory probably not. Its looks like small but significant
percentage of men are extraordinarily sensitive to economic advantages of
different activities.

I think the bitcoin billionaires and millionaires are mostly men, and good
evidence of something changing.

------
benlorenzetti
The articles' subtitle:

>> Males are enrolling in higher education at alarmingly low rates, and some
colleges are working hard to reverse the trend.

This may not be alarming depending on how you weigh the value added by
college. Conference of credentials by/for authority vs competence and
independence with work.

------
netrap
The main school in the story was originally an all girls school, which I think
has an effect now since they only started to promote it to men starting in
2004. I am willing to guess that overall the numbers aren't that bad, with a
little bit less men than women.

------
bjornstjerne
> Through 21 years running one of the few campus support centers exclusively
> for men, he said, “I’ve thought it can only get better. But it just has gone
> nowhere. Not only are there not programs like ours that are supportive of
> male students, but at most college campuses the attitude is that men are the
> problem. … I’ve had male students tell me that their first week in college
> they were made to feel like potential rapists.”

> Added Maloney: “There’s a lot of attention on empowering girls. I’m not
> saying there’s anything wrong with that, but males are the ones in crisis in
> education.”

We could start by fixing this problem, which seems like it should be one of
the easiest to solve. Lets make sure college is not a hostile environment for
_anyone_ , including men.

~~~
moorhosj
Is it possible that for some women the first weeks on campus they were made to
feel like potential rape victims?

------
inamberclad
> Men may also feel they have more alternatives to college than girls do. “For
> a lot of my [male] high school friends, it was just too much time,” said
> Smith, the orientation leader at Carlow. “They were ready to get out. As
> opposed to a four-year college, they could go to an 18-month [vocational-
> education] program and make just as much money.”

Seems like something that HN loves to push.

------
mesozoic
Finally getting that diversity they wanted!

------
muninn_
I thought this was an interesting quote: "discourage men from believing a
degree is worth the time and money"

I don't think that's so much the case as it is men are shamed and discouraged
in popular culture right now and particularly on campus. There are so many
women's programs (which I have no problem with), yet how many men's programs
are there?

The typical rebuttal is always "man up and take it" or men have an inherent
advantage, but what happens when that advantage has actually disappeared? If I
attempted to form a men in engineering group when I was a student I would have
been sued and expelled for gender bias or sexual harassment or something.

We need to make sure we continue to make men feel valued by society. I think
with the 24/7 news cycle and how focused it is on the bad things that some men
do (and how all men are subsequently guilty be association) it's no wonder
that men are dropping out of society.

------
drablyechoes
Perhaps it is the case that women are just smarter and find education more
appealing than their male peers, in aggregate.

Access to higher education for women is still a relatively new thing,
historically speaking, so why is it even surprising that the demographics
continue to change?

------
Isamu
44% men vs. 56% women this fall. What a crisis.

~~~
epicureanideal
I think the issue is the inconsistency, or possible double standard, with
considering this gap "okay" but similar gaps "not okay" if the genders are
reversed.

I'm for equal opportunities (and upbringing and social environment to
encourage use of those opportunities) for both genders. I hope others who
share that view will be consistent in their application of it.

For example, if as a result of the education imbalance, some day in the future
the pay gap is such that men earn 70 cents on the dollar to what women make,
are the same people who say "that's not okay" if it's true about women going
to say "that's okay" when it's about men? My anecdotal experience leads me to
think that might happen.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
I suspect that there are many people who would accept a 1% difference without
blinking, but would view a 5% difference with concern, and regard a 30%
difference as clearly unacceptable.

