
BART killing exposes security gap – many train cameras are decoys - johnhenry
http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/BART-killing-exposes-security-gap-many-train-6757514.php
======
Terr_
Another problem with "dummy cameras" for _PUBLIC_ institutions is that they
are basically lying to the taxpayer about what level of security is being
funded and provided.

What would you say about a municipality where half the circulating police-cars
were secretly fakes "to deter crime", and which would not respond to any
emergency?

 _P.S.:_ I think as time goes people will be less-accepting of fake-cameras,
because they'll assume the operator has a social or legal obligation to
provide footage in certain circumstances. For example, to see the license-
plates of a hit-and-run in the company parking-lot, or the face of the guy who
stole a purse at a restaurant.

~~~
michaelbuckbee
This is an actual thing: "ghost units" \- empty police cars placed around to
stop people from speeding.

[http://www.dailycomet.com/article/20130730/ARTICLES/13073995...](http://www.dailycomet.com/article/20130730/ARTICLES/130739950)

~~~
spike021
The sad thing is I've seen plenty of patrol cars _with_ actual officers in
them seemingly not taking breaks per se, but still ignoring blatant traffic
law-breaking happening all around them.

~~~
malandrew
Like the corner of Van Ness at Market Street where, during rush hour, a car
goes straight through a red light about once every 5 to 10 minutes. I used to
cross that intersection everyday and there was typically an officer standing
on the southwest corner. I twice told the officer standing there about how
frequently cars blow through that intersection and they both admitted it was a
problem but had a "nothing we can do about it" attitude. I was flabbergasted.
Some pedestrian is going to die there one day.

~~~
maxerickson
Several deaths within a couple of blocks:

[http://sfgov.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index....](http://sfgov.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=7382117f2b5f440e8e183f30cf2c6d57)

~~~
malandrew
Wow. Very interesting. I was surprised how many of those killed are elderly. I
wonder if it is because they are more likely to be involved in an "accident"*
or as likely to be involved but less likely to survive.

* I use the word accident in quotes because of stories like these: [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to-kill-cyclists.html?_r=0)

------
jheriko
many cameras /everywhere/ are 'decoys' although often through lack of
maintenance and being broken rather than intentionally.

as much as they are being a security hole, they are also a cheap deterrent.
i'd rather we have them than not.

most criminals are smart enough to not want to be seen... despite the
misconception that many criminals are stupid, desperate or somehow abnormal
people who do not behave like 'the rest of us'.

in the cases where people are genuinely out of their minds it won't make a
difference. in that case its much sadder that there is no possible deterrant
imo, than that we can not then track down the perpetrator of the crime.

~~~
iolothebard
Here's the photos. Just because a few weren't working (or real) doesn't mean
they have no footage:

[http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Photos-released-of-
suspec...](http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Photos-released-of-suspect-in-
killing-on-BART-6757070.php#photo-9246649)

~~~
jheriko
sure, they mention in the article that they have photos, but the message i got
from the article is that having the cameras be real would somehow be of
benefit because they help you track down the criminals.

to me, it seems very doubtful that the argument presented has any merit. they
are described as a 'security gap' in the title and repeatedly in the article,
but the evidence supporting that viewpoint is entirely absent.

(i should clarify that its not a worthless argument, just the example used to
present it contains evidence only for the counter-argument as far as i can
see)

------
mynewtb
Surveillance is not security, surveillance is surveillance. I an glad to hear
that not all cameras monitor our every step.

~~~
lowmagnet
Dummy cameras feel like 'Security Theater' to me.

~~~
sveiss
But unlike, say, extensive airport screening procedures, it's fairly easy to
test if dummy CCTV cameras have an impact on crime rates.

I don't know if such a study has been done, but if it works and impacts the
intended endpoints, it isn't really theatre.

~~~
lowmagnet
I agree with you that there may be a placebo effect.

Perhaps I could call them part of the "set" on which the theater conducts its
act.

------
JoblessWonder
Same principal we had for cameras in our school buses. Only some of them
actually had cameras in them but we were scared of all of them. If the goal is
to deter low-level crime like vandalism, I would think they probably worked,
at least temporarily.

Although part of me can't imagine thinking someone is watching 4 cameras on
every car on every train at all times.

~~~
DanBC
In england you know they're really cameras because the feed displays on a
screen and it flicks through all of them.

(I'll take some photos tomorrow.)

~~~
jheriko
really? i'm pretty sure i live there and this is the exception rather than the
case. particularly on public transport i have never seen this... although i've
seen it in restaurants and shops quite a few times, but certainly much less
frequently than i have seen cameras, or things that look like them.

~~~
roywiggins
They seem pretty common on London buses.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTHFSuPirXY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTHFSuPirXY)

~~~
jheriko
never noticed it on them... at least the only one i regularly take.

------
jcrawfordor
I've always suspected this. It's very unlikely that video would cross cars,
there are already enough pins on the couplers and I believe this would invoke
FRA requirements on the engineering.

I'm not sure when the cameras were installed, but the solid-state DVRs usually
used on vehicles probably weren't available yet, given the age of the BART
rolling stock. Tape-loop recorders would have been very high maintenance.

My suspicion is that some or all BART cars actually are equipped with tape-
loop recorders, and what they call 'dummy cameras' are simply recorders which
are broken or without tape because of lack of maintenance. The replacement
tapes are also getting hard to obtain.

There are several good commercial options for vehicle surveillance now (Safety
Vision being a prominent one), but across BART's ~650 cars this would easily
turn into a several million dollar project. Let's just keep holding out for
the new rolling stock...

------
thrownaway2424
Three people were shot in cars on I-80 in Richmond on the same day that this
person was shot on a BART train. There are as far as we have been made aware
no photos or videos of the event or the perpetrator. Strangely the press is
ignoring this other "security gap".

------
niels_olson
This argument leads to the idea that all decoys are security gaps. Yet it's
quite the opposite. No matter how many cameras you have, it's not a gap to
have decoys. Because decoys are always cheaper than adding cameras, and
security is always resource-constrained.

------
dawnbreez
The grocery store I work at has dummy cameras. I suspect this is because the
construction crew broke the security camera system, and nobody is willing to
pay for fixing it.

A lady's purse was stolen, and we couldn't do a thing.

I'm still pissed, months after the fact. The manager didn't tell the lady that
our cameras are broken, and he only told the officer once the customer was out
of earshot (if at all), so the poor lady's probably not aware of the real
problem. She could probably sue.

------
puppetmaster3
As supplement to right to defend self, maybe, but to replace right to defend
self: no.

------
mschuster91
Doesn't surprise me. Getting stuff certified for trains, cars or planes is
expensive. The less of the stuff you have to install, the better, from a
financial POV.

------
ck2
High quality dashcam with a month long of looping storage would cost about
$50-100 each - locked inside that security department.

Time for them to make them all real cameras.

------
CodeWriter23
When purchasing a camera system in NYC for my mom's shop, the tech at the
surveillance shop told me that any camera with a red light on it is a fake.

------
a3n
Let's hope that those cameras were supposed to be fake, rather than invoiced
and paid for as real cameras but fake ones installed.

------
mjmj
I feel for the family that lost a loved one and it's unfortunate they don't
have more information about this suspect.

------
ryanlol
I'm really curious as to how cameras are supposed to prevent a person from
killing someone, unless they're doing it in some extremely impractical manner
of course.

