
Improving the way kids are taught to read - lyk
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/02/12/582465905/the-gap-between-the-science-on-kids-and-reading-and-how-it-is-taught
======
mixedmath
I'm disappointed that nowhere in this interview is there any actual indication
of what is done badly, or what teachers should do to improve how kids are
taught to read. I get that there is apparently a gap between how kids are
taught to read and the science behind how kids should be taught read.

I would much prefer a single understandable, actionable insight. Without it,
this interview seems rather hollow. From this interview, I'm led to expect
that the real insight from the book is that "teachers should study behavioral
science, congnitive science, and brain development," which is too loose a
central thesis to capture my interest.

I suppose what I've really gathered from this interview is two things:
firstly, I would like to know a bit more about the gap is between how kids
learn to read and how they should learn to read; secondly, I do not intend on
reading Seidenberg's book (i.e. the book this interview is centered around) to
find out.

~~~
dubya
What is actually done is that teachers have children do tons of worksheets
focusing on small aspects of reading. This allows teachers to check the boxes
showing that they've covered the relevant standards, because this is what's
supposedly covered on standardized tests. The standards are difficult to turn
into lesson plans (even if that was a good idea), so often they use the clip-
art encrusted crap available on the web (e.g.
[https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Browse/Grade-
Level/First...](https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Browse/Grade-
Level/First/PreK-12-Subject-Area/Literature))

Occasionally they will actually read short passages from readers. After they
read anything they will have to fill in some sort of (standards aligned)
paperwork. They will never have extended reading time in class.

As an example, a 1st grade reading teacher needs to cover CCSS.ELA-
LITERACY.RL.1.(1-10) (reading literature); CCSS.ELA-LITERACY.RI.1.(1-10)
(reading information text); and CCSS.ELA-LITERACY.RF.1.(1-4) (but actually 15
substandards) (foundational skills).

Actual standards at [http://www.corestandards.org/ELA-
Literacy/RF/1/](http://www.corestandards.org/ELA-Literacy/RF/1/)

~~~
tootie
My kids are in school doing common core and that's not what it's like at all.
They do worksheets around learning specific small-bore topics, but otherwise
do a ton of book reading and long-form writing assignments. Unless you have a
cite, I don't think you're representing what the people in this article are
talking about.

~~~
dubya
I wasn't addressing the article, just the GP. My experience was with my
daughter's school. She was in 1st grade five years ago, but through 4th grade
she was still bringing home piles of worksheets that had been done in class,
and some more for homework(!). Talking with other parents at other schools at
the time, they had similar experiences. I'd be thrilled if five years has made
a huge difference, but I'm not optimistic.

I should note that we're in a not-terrific school district, and that there's a
whole chain of people from the teacher up to state legislators on up to, I
suppose, Betsy DeVos who can effect how the standards are addressed.

------
asimeqi
I think this is the thread where I should recommend the best book to teach
reading: Let's Read, a Linguistic Approach [http://www.amazon.com/Lets-Read-A-
Linguistic-Approach/dp/081...](http://www.amazon.com/Lets-Read-A-Linguistic-
Approach/dp/0814334555)

I got the recommendation here in HN and I used the book with my 2 daughters. I
started with my first daughter when she was 4.5 years old. I started with my
second daughter at an older age because she was showing a slight case of
dyslexia. It took 2 years to finish the book with each of them. After they
were done they could read everything. My second daughter is 9 and is almost
done with Oliver Twist. Read this comment by tokenadult:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4665466](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4665466)

~~~
book_mentioned
I would appreciate links to similarly helpful tools for early childhood
education for any subject (or language).

"Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" has been recommended ancedata-
ly to me.

~~~
dgritsko
I've also anecdotally heard good things regarding "Teach Your Child to Read in
100 Easy Lessons" \-- does anyone have direct experience with both that book
and "Let's Read: A Linguistic Approach" (and if so, a recommendation for one
over the other)?

~~~
arthurjj
I'm currently using "Teach your Child to read in 100 Easy Lessons." with my 3
year old. He hasn't had trouble with the reading, but a few of the exercises
were too long for him.

It uses the DISTAR method which seems to have the most empirical evidence
supporting it. (The controversy over DISTAR appears to me to be that it's
boring for the teacher)

~~~
logfromblammo
I used it on two kids. They now both score on standardized tests as reading
far in advance of their grade level. This leads to difficulties wherein much
of the material available at their level of technical proficiency does not
match with either their maturity levels or with their specific interests.

Neither of them actually _finished_ all 100 lessons. At some point, they both
preferred moving on to actual books rather than doing the remaining lessons.
So a little boring for the student as well, apparently.

~~~
rajatrocks
I had the same exact experience with 2 of my sons. Will start the third (5) on
it (Teach Your Child to Read...) this summer.

------
ThomPete
"The reasons are numerous, but one that Seidenberg cites over and over again
is this: The way kids are taught to read in school is disconnected from the
latest research, namely how language and speech actually develop in a child's
brain."

This is almost certainly wrong and even logically absurd. I am sure there are
more optimal ways to learn to read but any kind with a fair IQ who aren't
dyslexic can learn to read.

My son isn't a genius, but he have been practicing reading since he was 5 and
today at 8 he reads Harry Potter.

The trick (as with almost any other field)? Practice, practice, practice.
That's it. There is no magic sauce there.

One thing that we found that actually increased his lust for reading (he
definitely would rather play soccer, Minecraft or Rayman) is to give him a
Kindle which has a kids app with achievements and daily reading goals.

It's sad that so few kids read at their grade level but it's not because of
sub-optimal teaching methods that much is for sure.

~~~
golanggeek
Could you let me know the kids app that you are speaking about.

~~~
bobx11
Kindle free time is what we use on our kids. It's built into the Kindle and
you can upgrade it to a 3$ per month Kindle unlimited for kids books.

------
antirez
I want to share the experience I had with my daughter Greta (now 5 yo). She
learned to write and read independently. At 3 she was already able to write
simple words (not memorized, you cold say "write <any-4-or-5-letters-word>"),
and at this point at 5 she can fluently write. All this without spending more
than, maybe a total of a few days once she were already capable of basic
reading/writing. The question is, how she figured out how to write and read
independently? I'm not sure, but my wife and I read she books since she was 1
month old, every night before bed time, and often she wanted to look at the
books, so I guess she became accustomed to the shape of letters. Later she
played a lot in one of these rubber carpets where there are the shapes of the
letters
([https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/PCwAAOSwM5JZma4a/s-l500.jpg](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/PCwAAOSwM5JZma4a/s-l500.jpg)),
and my guess is that this also helped. At some point when she was like, 2, she
became obsessed with "A". This is letter "A" she could say during a few weeks.
Later she started to compose the "A" with three sticks, and so forth.
Basically with this process she learned all the letters and the sound. Btw
what I was able to observe was: 1) It is a lot of work for kids to learn to
write and read. Greta succeeded in doing so only because without we even
noticing much, he basically spent a lot of time thinking about letters,
drawing them, reading them. 2) When we tried to teach her better, like sitting
together, we almost stopped this process... because it started to be annoying,
so we avoided it if not for 10 minutes every month to say like, how groups of
letters sounded. 3) I believe that one of the key point was reading a lot of
books, because her language skills where very impressive already at 1.5 yo or
alike, and I believe this is potentially the result of reading books.

~~~
zwieback
Do you have more than one kid? One of mine learned reading super easily, the
other struggled. Both of them do very well in high school now.

I don't think one approach fits all and I'm certain teachers are sick of being
told they are doing this or that wrong. My advice: leave the kids and teachers
alone, they'll figure it out.

~~~
balls187
Which child performs better, the first born or second?

When I was a child, my parents worked on phonetics with me, and encouraged me
to work with my sister on hers. She didn't perform as well academically as I
did, but now that we're in our mid/late thirties, that discrepancy is nothing
but a footnote.

~~~
zwieback
First one had a harder time reading. Once she discovered the "Warriors" series
there was no stopping her, though.

------
sovok_x
Is it advertisement for the book? The article doesn't really tell what
teachers need to do better exactly.

~~~
irickt
There are some resources at the author's site:
[https://seidenbergreading.net/home/](https://seidenbergreading.net/home/)

------
irrational
I have seven kids, and they are all voracious readers. One of the kids read
all of the Harry Potter books when he was 8 years old. I honestly didn't think
he could comprehend what he was reading (i.e., I thought the books would be
beyond his reading comprehension level), but when we asked him questions about
the books he always knew the answers.

What we learned works is:

1\. Take them to the library a lot. Let them check out whatever they want. Let
them check out as many books as they want (up to the limit allowed by the
library - ours only allows 100 books per library card and we frequently run up
against that limit).

2\. Let them get their own library card as soon as the library will let them.
When they are older let them ride their bikes to the library (obviously this
depends on your location and situation) so they can check out things on their
own.

3\. Read to them from the time they are young, a lot.

4\. Check out audio books from the library and let them go to bed listening to
stories when they are too young to read. When they are older make sure they
have a flashlight or two so they can read after lights out.

5\. Greatly limit access to TV and game systems. We don't have cable or
streaming subscriptions. We only use our TV for movies or TV shows on DVD from
the library which they can watch on occasion when their chores and homework
are done (unless it's a nice day outside then they have to be outdoors playing
or reading in the hammock).

6\. Fill the house with books. We have thousands of books across all age
groups and topics. There are books everywhere in every room just in piles. The
kids beds are covered in books.

7\. Don't be a book snob. If they want to read comic books, let them read
comic books. It doesn't matter what they are reading, as long as they are
reading. Like any skill, the more you do it, the better you will get at it and
the greater success you will have at reading more advanced material when the
time comes.

8\. Let them see you reading. Talk to them about what you are reading.
Recommend books to them.

9\. When they are older, get them jobs at the library. Libraries always have a
need for people to help shelve books! One library in our area has a service
night when the library closes early and volunteers help clean the library.
There is pizza and soda and the kids absolutely love this night.

10\. Listen to books on "tape" in the car. Get them used to both reading and
hearing things being read to them.

------
germinalphrase
Once you get past phonetics, symbol/sound relationships - the only metric that
really matters for basic literacy is # of words read.

Should it be challenging? Yea, sure - but ten short books or two long ones
doesn't matter a bit. They just need to read more.

Source: I'm a k12 English teacher. The data that makes it into my hands almost
always comes back to this point.

------
sbinthree
It is amazing how irrational even smart people act about learning to read.
Maybe specifically smart people. Please, read the current research.

Kids learn to read best out of interest -- with reading material they are
interested in and when they are ready to learn. And it makes them better.

My parents fought not to teach me to read. I didn't learn to read until I was
11. When I was 12 I went to school for the first time (unschooled) and was the
top reader in my academically inclined private school.

Everyone else learned phonics and other permanent reading crutches and I read
shapes because I wasn't told how or when to learn when I was little.

I still read weirdly fast compared to classically trained people who are
otherwise smarter than me. What is faster I/O worth to your future?

All it involves is not ramming phonics and other Prussian nonsense down your
kids throat and waiting for intrinsic motivation to kick in.

~~~
cliffy
Are you saying the current research argues _against_ teaching children the
ability to read at a young age?

While forcing children to learn is not ideal, sometimes intrinsic motivation
doesn't flourish in the individual naturally. How would you deal with a child
that never wants to learn how to read?

~~~
teslabox
> How would you deal with a child that never wants to learn how to read?

All children will eventually come around to the idea that reading is useful.
Some children are traumatized by do-gooders trying to force them to learn how
to read before they're ready.

As I said in another comment here, "I think John Taylor Gatto pointed out that
some children learn to read when they're 2, some when they're 8, and by the
time they're 12 you can't tell the difference."

~~~
cliffy
There are adults who are illiterate and still resist the idea that they would
be better off if they learned how to read.

I agree there's a level of proficiency that, once reached, seems to be
sufficient to tackle most reading challenges.

If you can read at 2, then you've 10 years of reading experience on the 12
year old who just learned. It doesn't necessarily make you a better reader,
but you've had access to a much wider range of information and knowledge that
the 12 year old couldn't access.

It seems objectively better to encourage your children to learn to read at the
earliest age possible.

------
dkarl
_What I point out in the book is that in order to grasp the research,
[teachers] need basic scientific literacy to be able to understand it...._

 _The political solution was called "balanced literacy," which called on
teachers to use the best of both approaches. But it left it up to teachers who
had been trained to dismiss phonics and brush off the science._

There's the key. Teachers get their educational ideas from their education and
spend the rest of their career defending them from parents, administrators,
ideological "reformers," and other random bystanders who are mostly well-
meaning but who are all convinced they have a magic trick to fix everything if
the teachers would just stop being dumb about how they do their job.
Everybody's got an easy answer, 99% of them are just arrogant bystanders, and
teachers very quickly start tuning out. And the teachers are _not_
scientifically literate, so they don't know the difference between a scientist
who does research on reading and a random yahoo.

Plus the calls for educational "reform" usually have a partisan tinge.
Republicans say just drill harder and longer and keep the desks separated in
90º grids instead of circles and other commie bullshit; Democrats say give
kids books that connect to their unique cultural heritage and respect their
cognitive differences and they will magically know how to read. All the more
reason for teachers to ignore all outside input and assume they know best.

Not to mention the educational companies that have to manufacture excitement
about new teaching fads every year so they can sell new classroom materials.

With all this bullshit going on, you can't blame teachers for being closed-
minded and cynical. Most of them receive an idea of what progressive, smart
teaching looks like in college, when they're still optimistic and open-minded,
and cling to it for the next forty years. So I think this guy will be pleased
by the response of teachers who are currently in college. They'll take in the
current consensus and run with it.

------
BikinHowd
The main gem of wisdom that I took away is that we need an army of reading
tutors at a very young age, like K-3. The Reading Partners group that I belong
to in Dallas, TX is exactly the prescription that the doctor ordered. We allow
the children we tutor to pick a book to read to them, we do some phonics
teaching as to pronunciation, word meanings, and then have the student read to
us. 45 minutes, usually twice a week. The only thing I'd change, if we had
enough tutors, would be to make this a DAILY one-on-one until we got the child
up to proficient. Nonetheless, if you want to help out in a big little way,
check out Reading Partners and help a child get that reading edge...
incidentally, many third world countries have already realized that we need an
army of tutors to make sure no kiddos are left behind.

------
smoot_hawley
For anyone interested in this topic, there's an education documentary covering
three teachers who resort to leveraging brain science so as to break through
the boredom and disinterest of their students: a great exploration of the
personal journeys that led three teachers to use a neuroscience-based teaching
model, and showing that model in action within their locales and student age
brackets (Roland Park Elementary/Middle School in Baltimore, Maryland; a high
school in upstate New York, and a community college in Western Pennsylvania).
What really struck me in this documentary was the intimacy with which some
students and teachers respond to the model- and it's a very human showing of
the personal factors that drive education - both from a teacher and a student
standpoint. Told more from the human-experience standpoint, it also covers
practical aspects of using brain-based teaching.. worth a look for
professional development credits.
[http://www.greymattersdocumentary.com/](http://www.greymattersdocumentary.com/)

------
dkhenry
The best way to teach kids to read is to have their parents read to them, and
sit with them individually and work with them on sounding out words.

Then you just read with them over and over and over. Every night you read with
them, and then you provide them with access to books. Take them to the library
check out as many books as they want and then you sit and read with them every
single night. That is how you teach kids to read.

------
tzs
> Mark Seidenberg is not the first researcher to reach the stunning conclusion
> that only a third of the nation's schoolchildren read at grade level. The
> reasons are numerous, but one that Seidenberg cites over and over again is
> this: The way kids are taught to read in school is disconnected from the
> latest research, namely how language and speech actually develop in a
> child's brain.

I presume that at some point in the past most kids could read at grade level,
because presumably when it was initially decided what grade level was it was
based on how kids actually performed at the time.

So how was reading taught then? They certainly did not know today's latest
research on language and speech development in a child's brain.

Did they just stumble into the right approach, and so a reading program based
on the latest research would end up being similar to how reading was taught
in, say, the 1920s?

Or was the 1920s (or whenever kids were at grade level) approach also flawed,
and it is just that today's approach is even more flawed, and so if we based
reading programs on the latest research most kids would end up above grade
level?

~~~
maxerickson
The scales are made up. Many of them are formulaic, counting sentence length
or syllables or whatever and digesting that into a number.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Readability_test](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Readability_test)
links various measures.

I'd be curious to go back and see what and how much my grandfather read in
~1910, after he stopped school in the 8th grade.

~~~
sp332
When my grandpa got the news that he was going to ship out to the Pacific in
WWII, the CO said to the men: "Gentlemen, there is a time and a tide." None of
them had more than a sixth-grade education and they all knew what poem he was
referencing.

Edit: it appears I have misquoted it myself, or I can't find the reference.
It's probably the Shakespeare thing though.

------
electriclove
Larry Sanger's essay on Baby Reading may be of interest:
[http://larrysanger.org/2010/12/baby-
reading/](http://larrysanger.org/2010/12/baby-reading/)

~~~
bokchoi
And the site he's helped build based on the technique:

[http://www.readingbear.org/](http://www.readingbear.org/)

------
wilwade
(I taught my daughter to read, my wife currently working on our son, both with
a phonics based curriculum, but more in a Vygotsky style)

One of the motivations we have used is comic books. (Yes, that death of
classic reading!) Both of our kids are My Little Pony fans, so we read a lot
of those comic books for story time and gave them the books as they were
learning to read. Wanting to read is a requirement for learning to read.

------
crsv
Two Paragraphs in the interview are actually talking about the topic area /
science, the rest is devoted to a political discussion and isn't terribly
helpful / insightful. I was pretty disappointed in what I thought would be a
more meaningful piece from a relatively reputable news source.

------
dbatten
Does anybody have any insight into the "reading wars," why phonics has fallen
out of favor, and why it might still be important in certain contexts? All of
this intrigued me in the interview and I was very disappointed that none of it
was explained.

------
marze
Easy fix: cash bonus to teachers based on average year-end score of their
student’s reading comprehension.

~~~
maxerickson
That does usually prove to be a terrific way to improve scores.

The hard part is a test that actually measures something like reading
comprehension rather than preparation for the particular test.

~~~
bcoates
Teaching to the test is so much work, the smart teacher will just lobby
administration to get the weaker students removed from the class.

[https://fredrikdeboer.com/2017/03/29/why-selection-bias-
is-t...](https://fredrikdeboer.com/2017/03/29/why-selection-bias-is-the-most-
powerful-force-in-education/)

