
Many PS4 units dead on arrival - manojlds
http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-4-Launch-Edition/product-reviews/B00BGA9WK2/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
======
thetrb
I find it interesting that as of now with 516 5 star reviews and 332 1 star
reviews (and very few 2, 3 or 4 star reviews) the average still shows up as
3.5 stars. It's interesting since the lowest value possible is 1, so more
realistically it's not 3.5/5 but 2.5/4\. I'm wondering if this makes a
psychological difference and if less people would buy something on amazon if
they changed their rating system to go from 0 - 4 stars.

~~~
idProQuo
This has always bothered me, both on Amazon and the iTunes app store. No lie,
when I published my first app, one of the comments was "I'd rate this zero
stars if I could." and my first thought was actually "wait, why can't you?"

Overall, I think YouTube was on the ball by switching to a "Thumbs up, Thumbs
down" rating system. "Out of five star" rating systems are always sabotaged by
the fact that most people think in absolutes: Either something is the bee's
knees or it's fried shit on a biscuit. Given that most people vote this way,
up/down vote systems are better at giving an honest impression of how people
feel about something.

~~~
mcpherrinm
I find the 5 star system on Amazon useful. I don't always look at the average
rating, but rather the distribution graph of ratings.

For example, one common shape looks like this:

    
    
       5 stars: |||||||||||
       4 stars: ||||||||
       3 stars: ||||
       2 stars: ||
       1 star:  |||||||
    

There's way more 1 star than 2 or 3. That usually indicates the product shows
up DOA for a lot of people, or is otherwise probabilistically totally
unsuitable for some group of people.

If the number of star ratings follows a more normal curve like the following,
then I'm more confident in the quality of the product, even if both have an
average 4 star rating:

    
    
       5 stars: |||||||
       4 stars: ||||||||
       3 stars: ||||
       2 stars: ||
       1 star:  |

~~~
mashmac2
This would make a fascinating study of reliability - can you determine
statistically if a product will be reliable based on rating distribution.

You could study Amazon, App Store ratings, etc. Cool insight!

~~~
arh68
I wouldn't take any rating metric seriously unless it accounted for how long
they've owned it. Plus there's the difference between "I've owned 12
lawnmowers and this one's pretty okay, only broke down after 1.5yrs, 3 stars"
and "this is my first lawnmower, used it once, it's amazing, never going back
to cutting my lawn with scissors, 5 stars". Plus niche sites sometimes have
better reviews for the same products (newegg).

All that said, _there is information_ to be harvested in some of these
reviews.

~~~
ludzone
Good point about niche sites and the length of ownership. I've noticed that a
number of starts on products like top rated power supplies goes down after a
year an a half or so. While you might be getting a newly released power supply
with 500 reviews averaging closer to 5 stars, after 2 years, you will notice
that same product with 1600 reviews averaging at below 4 stars, because owners
probably came back and updated their reviews.

It would be interesting to see a trend line of change in sentiment about a
products over time, using existing data.

------
whalesalad
Apparently it's an overheating issue[0]. The 'red line of death' is not a sign
that your PS4 is dead, but a sign that it needs to shut down to cool off.

If that is happening immediately on boot, then hopefully the temp sensor or
overall temp system is flawed and can be fixed either by a Sony patch or
really quickly in their manufacturing process. Hard to believe something like
that slipped through the cracks.

Reminds me of Dave Baggett's recent story[1] about how when you jiggled a
controller stick during save, cross-talk on the motherboard would end up
causing your memory card to become completely erased. I'm no EE but I wonder
if there is something really strange at play here ... like perhaps old wiring
in your home. I only say this because I can't imagine a really straightforward
reason for this to be happening, unless they have a bad batch of temp sensors?

Fortunately iFixit has taken apart the PS4 already, so we can take a look
inside the chassis[2]. There's a lot of talk there on the 'revolutionary'
cooling system. There's a giant fan/heatsink combination for the CPU, and the
exhaust air seems to flow over the PSU to cool it passively. There's another
fan beneath the motherboard which looks pretty small.

Could also be a case of left-over tape or manufacturing material, like we saw
with some of the Macbooks coming off the assembly line. There was a piece of
plastic/tape coviering the exhaust vent that caused the fans to quickly go
full speed and the system to get real hot. I can't find a reference to it
anywhere though.

In other news, I'm anxiously awaiting my Xbox One pre-order and hope that it
doesn't have any of the same issues :)

0\.
[http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps4/basic/partnam...](http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps4/basic/partnames.html)

1\.
[http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DaveBaggett/20131031/203788/M...](http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DaveBaggett/20131031/203788/My_Hardest_Bug_Ever.php)

2\.
[http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/PlayStation+4+Teardown/19493](http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/PlayStation+4+Teardown/19493)

~~~
Lagged2Death
_Apparently it 's an overheating issue[0]. The 'red line of death' is not a
sign that your PS4 is dead, but a sign that it needs to shut down to cool
off._

The Amazon reviews are complaining of a blinking _blue_ "light of death,"
which I don't see described in the manual you linked to. "PS4 blue light of
death" returns over 2 million Google results already.

 _I 'm no EE but I wonder if there is something really strange at play here
... like perhaps old wiring in your home._

I really don't think so.

~~~
threeseed
"PS4 blue light of death" returns 101 results.

If you mean searching without the quotes then that is just stupid since Google
will return results that match only one of the search terms.

~~~
sgift
PS4 "Blue light of death" ~ 18k results.

~~~
threeseed
Seriously ? Do people not understand how Google works ?

Search for PS4 "Blue light of death". Click on Page 10. You will see results
about Wii U / Epic 4G blue lights of death. Google stopped requiring pages to
have all search terms a long time ago now.

~~~
ta_euccoin
Seriously, not everybody will have the same results from google for the same
search, don't you know about the filter bubble [1]?

Then again the number of google result never was a very good indicator even
less since google search started removing search features and return only a
single page of supposedly relevant results.

[1]:[http://dontbubble.us/](http://dontbubble.us/)

------
minimaxir
I read a comment earlier that made a good point that unlike the console
launches of the previous generation in 2004-2006, we now have access to
Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube to vocalize and demonstrate our complaints
worldwide.

It makes the vocal minority much more vocal.

~~~
barista
If you clicked on the link above, you will see that nearly 40% of the Amazon
reviews are 1*. There is a good chance that most of those people received a
dead PS4. Agree that not everybody who received a good PS4 left a positive
review but this certainly does not make it looks like a minority.

~~~
chucknelson
Definitely reaching there - you can't assume a large majority of people who
ordered from Amazon are leaving reviews. You already know that people without
a working console will no doubt go leave a review, so the sample is
significantly skewed.

We won't know if this is a real problem until Sony says something.

Disclosure: I ordered my PS4 from Amazon in June, received it yesterday, it
works fine...and I have no reason to write a review about it.

~~~
makomk
Also, it looks - at a glance - like more of the 5* reviews are from verified
purchasers than the 1* reviews. Presumably a bunch of people who didn't buy
from Amazon and had a DOA PS4 went onto Amazon and posted an angry review, but
people who got a working one had no reason to.

------
obsurveyor
Manufacturing defect with the HDMI port is causing damage to HDMI cables.
Amazon should really send an email out about it to people who ordered, there
is an easy fix.

~~~
jonny_eh
What's the fix?

~~~
caw
Kotaku documented it, push down the HDMI pin with something.

~~~
viseztrance
Yeah this is the link [http://kotaku.com/good-news-about-our-once-broken-
ps4-146481...](http://kotaku.com/good-news-about-our-once-broken-
ps4-1464813671)

------
simias
The problem with those reviews is those whose console is working are not
complaining. Are there any hard numbers on the proportion of dead consoles?
Have Sony commented on this issue?

~~~
floatingatoll
As of right now, there are 323 1-star reviews.

Sony sold "81,639" PS3 consoles on that unit's launch day.

So if Amazon shipped 81,639 PS _4_ consoles, this would be a failure rate of
4.0 units per 1000, or 0.4%.

Microsoft noted at one point during the Xbox 360 launch that the industry
standard failure rate was between 3 and 5%.

Presuming that same 3-5% is the failure rate for the PS4, and that 100% of DOA
customers posted a 1-star comment, Amazon sold between 6,460 and 10,766 PS4
units.

I would hope the failure rate is closer to 0.4% than to 4.0%, but I can't even
hazard a guess at Amazon's sales volume, so this is where the hard numbers
stop.

(ps. I didn't check my math closely and I'm walking out the door, feel free to
correct me in replies and I'll edit later to reflect.)

~~~
jlgreco
Re: 'Industry standard' error rate.

I admittedly haven't worked in manufacturing at anything even resembling that
scale, but I did spend a summer working for a company that assembled, sold,
and installed PCs to local small businesses and (particularly) school
districts. A 4-5% failure rate, at the point of installation, would have been
absolutely inconceivable in that job.

Sure, there were _lots_ of failures, most caused by assembly errors, some
caused by damage during assembly, some due to component failures, but the
_vast_ majority were caught before the trucks were loaded. One guy with a
rolling swivel chair and several industrial-sized KVM switches can verify that
500 _(what you might expect for several computer labs across a single school
district, for school districts the size we were dealing with)_ or so PCs will
more or less work in really just a few minutes. I would assert that this sort
of manual sanity checking is the sort of operation that is embarrassingly
parallelizable too. Two people can check a batch of 1000 just as fast as one
person can check 500. 20 people should be able to do 10,000.

And this was a small operation. Were we larger, it may have made sense to look
into more automation.

Between those checks, and when they were hauled into schools and plugged in?
Nothing much about a tractor trailer ride is going to make a PC go DOA.

So I guess my question is, what sort of QA are they doing at the factory to
get a 4-5% DOA rate? Or if the QA is fine, what the hell is happening during
the shipping? Are the devices overly fragile? If they are being damaged during
shipping, could the same damage occur in the home?

~~~
silencio
Not that this happened with my fiancé's PS4, but OnTrac (a CA/NV? local
carrier that Amazon often uses) has employees with an infuriating habit of
throwing packages over gates.

And I don't mean soft padded envelopes that really won't suffer from being
thrown over the gate, but boxes including (from the last six months) computer
equipment, a sunrise alarm clock, glass canning jars, bottles containing
liquids, and more. hurled about 8 feet (to clear the gate) and down onto the
stone behind it. The place I lived at before, they threw a box hard enough to
leave a mark on the door. Then I have to waste my time complaining to OnTrac
and Amazon about the broken glass and non-functioning equipment and return and
replace it hoping the next delivery guy doesn't screw it up. Some days I feel
like Amazon uses too much padding for something so trivial, and then I realize
I have to deal with OnTrac and then there cannot be enough padding for my
packages.

I will not be surprised at all if the DOA rate takes into account factors like
that.

~~~
Aloisius
OnTrac likes to just leave packages in front of my door. On Market Street in
San Francisco and mark the packages signed by "Door." Once in a while they'll
ring the doorbell, but often I'll just find it there. So far, no one has
stolen anything, but boy does it make me nervous.

~~~
silencio
Oh man. I live on Market too. OnTrac has done that same exact thing before,
and sometimes I only discover it because someone passing on the street or a
neighbor rings my doorbell to let me know I have a box outside. They also
don't seem to be able to read, as they will accidentally deliver packages to
xx30 when we're xx20 and vice versa.

I hate them so much. I go out of my way to leave terrible feedback for
shipping on every OnTrac package I get at this point. Their reps keep telling
me they're not going to do it any more and still it's such terrible service
that I would cancel Prime membership if it wasn't for most packages being
delivered by UPS/FedEx/USPS.

~~~
mikeash
Here on the East coast we have LaserShip, which sounds like pretty much the
same deal. They once delivered my package to a city 30 miles away to a family
with a completely different name. Amazon loves to use them here too. It's a
bit distressing that they don't exercise better oversight over their shippers,
given how central that is to their business model.

~~~
gbvb
I have had lasership make mistakes couple of times (dropping of at the
neighbors, claiming no answer when never attempted).. I complained to amazon
about the shipping and I have not received any shipment from them via
Lasership after that. I am a prime member though. (not sure if that changes)..

------
gigq
There appears to be multiple issues going on that are probably all being filed
under the console being bricked. HDMI seems to be causing problems where the
console won't show a picture but everything internally is still working. There
is also a safe mode you can go into that is fixing the issue for some. And
finally there are some that are really just bricked which is probably accurate
to the 0.4% rate that Sony claimed.

Also FWIW I received one from Amazon and everything worked fine out of the
box.

~~~
gigq
From an Amazon review:

You can return it to Amazon or Call Sony @ 1(800)345-7669 to schedule a
replacement. Mine is broken like everyone elses.

If your console light turns white (and doesn't get stuck at pulsating blue),
it could be the HDMI cable or connection issue. Fix with a pin (see Kotaku's
article).

If it stays blue and pulsates, try safe mode (turn off system completely, then
hold down power for 10 sec and wait till you hear beeps). From here Sony can
help you troubleshoot if you wanted to call in. If it wont even boot to safe
mode, it's bricked. You can try to troubleshoot on your own if you're
adventurous: 1\. Hold down power button until the unit powers off and the
light goes out. This took about 10 seconds. 2\. From power off, enter Safe
Mode by holding down the power button until you hear beeps. Release power
button after the second beep. The Safe Mode menu will appear with a list of
options. 3\. Select Option 4 to restore PS4 to factory defaults. Once it's
done, the system will restart. 4\. In our case, after the reboot, the PS4
automatically entered Safe Mode. This time, they had us select Option 6 to
Initialize the PS4. Note that by doing this, you will lose profiles and
settings so just be aware that you are basically starting over. Once it's
done, the system will restart. 5\. When the PS4 comes back up, it will take
you through the initial setup again as if it's being booted for the first
time.

If you can't get the PS4 to boot into safe mode, it's not your HDMI port. it's
an internal issue and you'll have to send it to Sony to be fixed.

~~~
pgrote
This is the article relating to the pin:

[http://kotaku.com/tips-for-using-the-
playstation-4-146522878...](http://kotaku.com/tips-for-using-the-
playstation-4-1465228783)

"A thin piece of metal in the port got raised when we put an HDMI cable in—at
least that's what we think happened. A Sony official fixed the unit by pushing
the metal down with a pin."

------
andrewfong
That's just how Xbox people think.

[http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-
episodes/s17e07-black-f...](http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-
episodes/s17e07-black-friday)

~~~
aspensmonster
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

------
yelnatz
At least you know right away that they're dead.

It'd be more annoying 6 months down the road.

~~~
minimaxir
Or worse, the Xbox 360 RROD issue, which was an _inevitable_ ticking time bomb
that could blow at any time.

~~~
spaux
Idk, I've never had that happen, while some people have had it happen over and
over. From my perspective, it doesn't seem any more inevitable than the
console becoming obsolete.

~~~
shortstuffsushi
Really? I've had that happen on five different units I (or my brothers) have
owned. Given, after our first "new" one rrod'd, we started buying refurbs.
From what I've seen, though, it really is inevitable, and I've just started
expecting them to die at some random point. My current one has lasted two
years, though.

------
kmfrk
Amazon's packaging also seems to leave something to be desired:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/PS4/comments/1qrawl/this_is_how_my_b...](http://www.reddit.com/r/PS4/comments/1qrawl/this_is_how_my_box_arrived_from_amazon_it_is_no/).

~~~
anonymfus
Official Amazon packaging video from that Reddit thread shows problem with
lack of cushioning on bottom:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSHX-
iHJEWM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSHX-iHJEWM)

------
abritishguy
There may well be widespread issues but this link just shows that some people
have issues which given the volume of PS4s was kind of a given.

------
jsz0
If the failure rate was as high as the Amazon reviews suggest it seems like
there would be more news about this even from the mainstream non-tech media by
now. Lots of people get pretty fanatical about video game brands so I
personally wouldn't trust any of the Amazon reviews good or bad. Remember
Amazon allows anyone to write a review of any product -- purchased or not.

~~~
IvyMike
> there would be more news about this even from the mainstream non-tech media
> by now.

"By now"? It's one day after release on a weekend.

------
mikevm
There are some rumors claiming that interns at Foxconn sabotaged a few PS4s:
[http://corruptedcartridge.com/ps4-sabotaged-
news/](http://corruptedcartridge.com/ps4-sabotaged-news/)

------
agumonkey
Was it better on previous models ? I wonder Sony isn't suffering from off-
sourcing issues. Instead of in-house easily controlled circuitry, the cheaper
off-the-shelf approach might cause higher rates of failures.

------
skc
Seems like the fact they sold 1 million units in 24 hours in NA alone should
put these DOA failures into perspective. It's a tiny, tiny number of consoles
not working vs those that are.

------
mtsmithhn
Don't they do burn-in tests on consoles so they know it works before it ships?

------
robmcm
If this is the ps4 launch imagine the xbox one...

------
vonskippy
So rushing to stand on the cutting edge might result in bloody feet - whoda
thunk it?

~~~
JoachimSchipper
I don't think something as super-mass-market as a gaming console qualifies as
"cutting edge". (You could make an argument for the PS3's Cell processor, I
suppose, but that's hardly relevant here.)

------
wnevets
doesnt this happen release cycle ?

------
wgx
MS PR in action?

They've got previous:
[http://m.slashdot.org/story/181735](http://m.slashdot.org/story/181735)

