
Men’s Locker Room Designers Take Pity on Naked Millennials - tetraodonpuffer
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/fashion/mens-style/mens-locker-room-designers-take-pity-on-naked-millennials.html
======
CPLX
Watching old men walk around and have conversations with each other about
their wife and kids while their drooping hairy genitals flap back and forth
has been a time honored gymgoing right of passage for generations. These young
whippersnappers have no respect for tradition, clearly.

~~~
ClayM
i'm on the older side of the millennial generation (born in 1980) and since I
was 22, I've been going to one of those nicer gyms where there's lots of old
men walking around with their junk hanging out.

it bothered me for about 6 months, then i got over it.

also realized that it was an amazing place to network. putting up walls would
have been bad for my career.

------
Practicality
Can we get over the generations concept soon? Younger people are less
mature... because they are younger.

At some point the millennials will be the old generation complaining about how
we used to have to actually "text" rather than just think our ideas and have
them transcribed.

There will be something about how the process of having to conceive of grammar
and spelling made your thoughts more coherent.

But society will move on anyway, and yes, the younger generation will be less
mature, at least, until it gets older.

I never really understood why it bothers people so much that things progress.
But maybe I am just grumpy because it is Monday :)

~~~
Wintamute
Differences in attitudes between generations are interesting to think about,
and illustrative of changes to society. Are you suggesting that literally the
only differences between generations are related to maturity? The article
didn't seem overly "bothered" by the millennial attitudes it described, rather
it was simply noting them and exploring the idea that business practices may
need to change to accommodate them. The only one who seems "bothered" is you,
so maybe you are feeling grumpy! Hope you feel better soon :)

~~~
michaelt
The problem with discussions of change to society and differences between
generations is it's very tempting for people talking about those things to
extrapolate anecdotes and first-hand experiences, which measure the journalist
more than they measure society.

For example, a 25-year-old journalist might think that getting married and
having children has risen in popularity compared to 7 years ago. Is it a sign
people are recovering confidence after the 2008 economic downturn? Maybe - but
it might just mean all his/her friends from school are getting married and
having kids, and more people do that at age 25 than at age 18. Maybe society
hasn't changed at all :)

------
skywhopper
I'm surprised at the comments here. I wonder how many of you experienced
bullying in gym class over your body's appearance. The privacy of one's naked
body is pretty important thing to a lot of people, but particularly to young
teenagers, many of whom would opt out of gym class if they could, and who
often enter puberty at very different ages. Even if you are or were
comfortable walking around naked in front of others, it's cruel to force all
people to face something that just isn't necessary.

Now, I agree that "comfy couch corners" and "sexy glass escape pods" seem
silly and unrealistic (albeit typical of such NYT articles) but just basic
privacy for showers and dressing ought to be a no-brainer for locker rooms for
any age.

~~~
amyjess
Fortunately, when I was in high school (1999-2003), guys didn't get naked in
the locker room before and after PE.

I don't know what the girls did, because this was years before my transition,
but in the guys' locker room, nobody ever took off their underwear. We all
swapped our regular clothes and our gym clothes out while leaving our boxers
in place. We didn't shower, either, which is something the article mentions in
passing (with a link to a more detailed article on the subject).

The only time I ever saw people naked (as much as I tried not to) was on the
rare occasions we'd go swimming for gym class.

~~~
Tharkun
What do you mean, 'fortunately'?. Not only is it disgusting from a hygiene
point of view -- especially wrt sweaty teenagers! -- it's also a great way to
come to terms with nudity. With porn as the main source of nudity, it's no
wonder that so many teens have self-image issues.

~~~
eastbayjake
I think the 'fortunately' was in reference to OP saying she was pre-
transition, which I imagine might make a men's locker room experience anxious
and painful, and I thank OP for bringing up that perspective because I hadn't
considered it while thinking about my own locker room experiences.

I agree with you that showering after wrestling practice forced me to come to
terms with nudity, and I'm grateful for the confidence boost that comes from
seeing that most men look the same under their clothes. (But I don't think
"size anxiety", if you will, is limited to special snowflake Millennials who
haven't been naked in front of others... it seems like many men of all ages
worry about it and feed into a thriving industry of enlargement scams -- at
least judging by the contents of my spam folder!)

------
cobookman
Having more private locker rooms could have negative psychological side
effects on us. At first the naked locker room is weird. However after a while
you stop caring. Its almost like a body self empowerment.

I can see the positive & negative side of it though. However sheltering the
youth from all negative feedback is not a good thing either. People need to
grow up facing adversity.

~~~
golemotron
I agree. My first thought reading the article was "can this generation become
any more precious?"

Feelings are great, but when you put them in the driver's seat you don't get
the chance to see how they can change and how you can grow in the process.
It's the difference between being scared of flying all your life and getting
past that fear. There's pride in overcoming your fears. You feel less like a
victim.

~~~
benten10
Nope. You're conflating two _very_ unrelated trends to prove your pre-existing
'can this generation become any more precious' belief.

For example, people in India are generally opposite of what you might call
'precious'. Parents will very openly call out their kids on their body size,
their appearance, there whatever. Young men and womanly will openly (and
sometimes, far too much) discuss relative attractiveness of persons -- often
admitting that while they themselves are not that attractive, so and so is
even uglier, etcetera. They are, I would imagine, not in any sense of the word
'precious' or coddled. The South Asian cultures are also the epitome of what
might be considered 'collective' culture, versus the more American
individualistic, 'me-me-me' culture.

And yet. People never ever ever get naked. Ever. Not even when they shower. In
their private bathrooms. With no one watching. There's joke about how South
Asians don't get naked even when having sex (which, I'm told, appears to
reflect reality). You would imagine, with people so comfortable with friends
and families (note South Asian men have traditionally been verrry comfortable
being physically close to other men, including holding hands, frequent hugs,
etcetera), they would not be as shy about nudity. And yet they are.

Here's another datapoint: the Japanese, who are still culturally very family-
community centered, will get naked at a drop of a feather.

Use your 'precious generation doesn't want to get naked' theory to explain
these, and your theory will pass the basic test.

~~~
Wintamute
The difference here is we're not observing long standing cultural attitudes in
millennials, but a very short term shift that defies their parent culture.
You're criticising OP for _not_ comparing apples and oranges ~ doesn't make
sense. OP's point stands.

~~~
benten10
OP claims to explain the 'shying away from nudity' phenomena using the 'ahh
those precious young people' argument. I argue that it's not necessarily the
'precious youth' that is shy of nudity, and I present a cross-cultural proof
that shyness of nudity is not necessarily due to his presumed cause.

Comparing Apples to Oranges is exactly what's needed here. By doing so, I'm
helping isolate the variable OP suggests affects Apples is not so. Imagine
he'd claimed that Apples are suddenly brown because of 'those damn young
trees'. If I show that those darned young trees elsewhere don't have the same
issue, then there'd be a greater need on the OP's side to actually provide the
proof that it's those darned precious young people.

OP needs to provide a greater proof that it's because of those 'precious
youth'. I might argue that it's due to increased cultural influence of more
body-conservative cultures, or because (ridiculous as it may sound) online
nudity is now so common, people don't want their online versions to be
identified to offline bodies [which is VERY different from what OP argues].

------
pjc50
This is definitely improved by the "millenials" => "snake people" translator.

------
jschwartzi
I really don't think people at the gym care that much about being nude in the
locker room. This reads a lot like a paid-for ad for design services.

~~~
adrianN
Anecdotally, in my gym a lot of the younger people shower while wearing
underwear.

~~~
CPLX
Does this actually happen in real life? Underwear, like cotton things you wear
under your clothes normally, not swimwear?

~~~
adrianN
Yes, actual underwear. I assume the same one they exercized in. (Amazing life
hack: shower in your undies and save $$$ in laundry!)

It amazes me as much as you even though I see it every other day.

------
gk1
Millennials? Gyms like Equinox in NYC start at over $600 per month. I see the
described designs as adding luxury to wealthy clients, not adding privacy to
pee-shy youngins.

~~~
CPLX
> Gyms like Equinox in NYC start at over $600 per month

No, they don't. That's ridiculous.

~~~
gk1
You're right, I was thinking of the starting fee. The monthly rate is around
$200:

[http://ny.racked.com/2015/1/13/7561179/nyc-chain-gyms-
cost](http://ny.racked.com/2015/1/13/7561179/nyc-chain-gyms-cost)

~~~
wldcordeiro
That's still a lot to pay per month for a gym membership.

~~~
CPLX
It's also New York, and Equinox.

NYSC is basically the Starbucks of gyms in the city, they are middle of the
road and everywhere. Their rates are $20-30 a month now.

------
A_COMPUTER
The article didn't mention that this is also being done to short-circuit the
overwhelming opposition (using nakedness as a wedge) to trans-people in locker
rooms of their identified gender.

------
rakePerh
This was incredibly tart. Some of us younger millennials are not "subsidized"
and scrape up the extra money per month for a gym because we are concerned
about aging healthfully. I, too, bristled at the writer giving the "special
snowflake millennial" dead horse another dryfuck.

------
bryanlarsen
A large percentage of people who go to the gym go _because_ they have body
image issues. No need to make going even harder for them.

------
nsxwolf
I'm a Gen-Xer and I went to great lengths to avoid getting naked in front of
classmates. I still don't like being naked in front of strangers.

I cringe when I hear stories about swimming naked in high school in the 1950s.

------
roneesh
I suspect a part of this is due to America's losing of a Spa culture. Korea,
Russia, Germany and Scandinavian countries seem to have (comparatively)
thriving cultures, which make people more comfortable being naked around each
other.

I do agree with the common sentiment here though, what a tired, boring trope
to pillory millennials for this quirk. It's hardly ideal that they're becoming
more body conscious, but it's quite a great solace to instead appreciate how
much they're advocating for tolerance in our society.

~~~
cafard
There weren't any more spas in the US during the 1960s and 1970s, but there
certainly were common showers in the locker rooms in high schools and junior
high schools. For that matter, there were in the early 1980s, when a race I
ran in ended at a junior high school.

------
peter303
1) It started long before millennials. Gang showers pretty much disappeared in
anything built after 1990. 2) I hear the military has mostly gone private
showers too. Thats how pervasive this trend it. 3) I remember school teacher
friends complaining how smelly their students were. They just would not shower
after gym class and still dont. These days many schools are so informal that
kids just wear athletic clothes all day. 4) Other than sociological phenomena,
I dont really care.

------
amyjess
Having a private changing area is something that could be very good for trans
people.

Now if only they'd do this for women's locker rooms, too...

~~~
delecti
I had the same thought. I've hesitated to join a gym for that very reason.

------
Zikes
As usual, the older generations fear change and subsequently lash out at the
younger generations. The cycle continues.

~~~
venomsnake
I think of myself still as the young generation since I am from the so called
millennials. Generally speaking I hate dumb stuff. Giving a fuck about what
someone thinks about your body is dumb. Also in the gym - nobody does. Nobody
really even thinks you exist and everyone has something better to do. You get,
you undress, dress and get out.

Do i fear change - hardly. Privacy requires space. Space means higher rents,
which mean higher fees. I personally prefer to see/show from time to time
acknowledgment that penises exist outside of porn and giger works and keep the
gym experience cheap.

~~~
Zikes
> Giving a fuck about what someone thinks about your body is dumb.

Giving a fuck about what someone thinks about you is the natural human
condition. That's not really the point, though. Privacy isn't about having
something to hide, it's about the right to choose.

But if you personally prefer to stare at dongs all day, you'll still have the
internet and politics.

~~~
Jtsummers
> But if you personally prefer to stare at dongs all day, you'll still have
> the internet and politics.

It's easy not to stare, you literally control your eyes. You can direct them
upward. As a male (assuming heterosexual) do you find it impossible to _not_
stare at women's cleavage? If you can look away from that, and you're
attracted to it, then why would looking away from other men's genitals be
difficult when you're _not_ attracted to them?

~~~
Zikes
That was in response to "I personally prefer to see/show from time to time"

~~~
venomsnake
Compared to paying for a lot of useless waste of space ignoring a glimpse of a
dick is not a big deal.

------
joesmo
Maybe I have some natural talent (doubtful), but changing under a towel is
really easy and convenient, so I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
I first learned the "skill" on crowded beaches.

------
serge2k
> “Old-timers, guys that are 60-plus, have no problem with a gang shower and
> whatever,” Mr. Dunkelberger said. “The Gen X-ers are a little bit more
> sensitive to what they’re spending and what they’re expecting. And the
> millennials, these are the special children. They expect all the amenities.
> They grew up in families that had Y.M.C.A. or country club memberships. They
> expect certain things. Privacy, they expect.”

or maybe the naked old guy in the locker room is a common joke for a reason.

------
takk309
The concept of non-sexual nudity is very quickly disappearing in the US. I
play on a co-ed hockey team and there is one gal that has no qualms about
hopping in the shower with the guys. It is not weird because we all realize
that it is non-sexual. That being said, in the main locker room area, I do try
to minimize the amount that I expose myself to the other women that are not as
comfortable, but that is out of respect for them, not my own fears.

------
dogma1138
I wonder how would they deal with co-ed showers and sauna's in mainland Europe
where you can have a 65 year old man steaming next to a 22 year old woman both
naked and no one bats an eye.

------
flyinghamster
Wait a second. I thought that the millenials were too busy sexting one
another, or at least it seems as if that was the current moral panic. Now
they're afraid to be seen without clothes?

------
Nadya
I'm a millennial and had no issues going to a foreign country and getting
naked with complete strangers. (Japan, visiting an onsen.)

The problem is with American prudish behavior and helicopter "nudity-is-bad"
parenting. I agree with many of the comments below: no wonder people have
body/self image issues. The only nudity they see is from porn.

------
benten10
As someone's mentioned on Twitter, I'd like a browser extension that replaces
"Millennials" with 'people more youthful, more attractive, and more sexually
active than us', please!

~~~
circlefavshape
/me raises one eyebrow

Prettier != more sexually active. If you're lucky you'll find this out for
yourself, eventually

~~~
benten10
I have, unfortunately, learned this already. STILL makes one not feel better
about oneself, haha. But that's for a different day and a different thread on
a different forum. : )

Talking of nudity, to all those 'those dang young people' arguments: how does
one reconcile young people are getting more comfortable with ONLINE nudity,
but less with offline.

We ['millennials'] get hated on either way. There's news of snapchat and
sexts, and we're told 'those damn millennials, strutting about their stuffs
like they invented sex'. We get shy about nudity, and we're told 'those damn
millennials. So precious, can't even stand to be naked in front of other
people'. Give us a break, Olds.

