

Why no looting in Japan? - sunjain
http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/why-is-there-no-looting-in-japan/?hpt=T1
This does not actually answer this question...but should be an interesting analysis.
======
tc
From _Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!_ ; Feynman and a colleague are
staying at a traditional Japanese hotel in Kyoto:

The next morning the young woman taking care of our room fixes the bath, which
was right in our room. Sometime later she returns with a tray to deliver
breakfast. I'm partly dressed. She turns to me and says, politely, "Ohayo,
gozai masu," which means, "Good morning."

Pais is just coming out of the bath, sopping wet and completely nude. She
turns to him and with equal composure says, "Ohayo, gozai masu ," and puts the
tray down for us.

Pais looks at me and says, "God, are we uncivilized!"

We realized that in America if the maid was delivering breakfast and the guy's
standing there, stark naked, there would be little screams and a big fuss. But
in Japan they were completely used to it, and we felt that they were much more
advanced and civilized about those things than we were.

~~~
StavrosK
I came here to quote Feynman too, but a different part:

 _This question of trying to figure out whether a book is good or bad by
looking at it carefully or by taking the reports of a lot of people who looked
at it carelessly is like this famous old problem: Nobody was permitted to see
the Emperor of China, and the question was, What is the length of the Emperor
of China’s nose? To find out, you go all over the country asking people what
they think the length of the Emperor of China’s nose is, and you average it.
And that would be very “accurate” because you averaged so many people. But
it’s no way to find anything out; when you have a very wide range of people
who contribute without looking carefully at it, you don’t improve your
knowledge of the situation by averaging._

It seems to me that they asked a bunch of people in the US why they _think_
there is no looting in Japan...

~~~
jerf
It strikes me as a theory with very poor explanatory power. We've seen many
crises in the US as well, and Katrina was an _exception_. There have been a
couple of others within my lifetime, but it's not politically correct to point
out what similarities they may have. (I suppose I should point out this isn't
a veiled reference to _race_ , it's actually 100% _cultural_ , but it's still
not politically correct to discuss.) It is true in the US we always have to be
at least a bit worried about looting, we can't quite _completely_ write it
off, but in general it doesn't happen, and we do have a very loose society by
comparison to Japan's. Whatever the determining factor is, that is not it, at
least not directly.

~~~
bilbo0s
Sorry, not trying to anger anyone or anything, I am genuinely interested.
Where in the US was there a natural disaster of significant scale where there
was no looting?

I'm actually from Wisconsin, but was living in Cedar Rapids during the floods,
and there was looting there. My neighbor was the cop chasing these guys down.
I am just curious how other communities were able to avoid looting.

BTW, Cedar Rapids is in Iowa.

~~~
coconutrandom
Not a disaster quite, but in Houston everyone evacuated from the hurricane and
no one I knew reported any looting happening.

~~~
dctoedt
And people turned out to help, first to clean up their own blocks, then to
help with citywide food banks.

------
tsuyoshi
There was a major power outage in much of the northeastern North America,
affecting tens of millions of people, and almost no looting (aside from
isolated incidents in Ottawa and Brooklyn) there either. There was a major
terrorist attack in New York in 2001 and no looting. There was a major
earthquake in San Francisco in 1989 and no looting. This statement that
"looting is something we see after almost every tragedy" is simply not true.

~~~
asdkl234890
Exactly! This _Why are the Japanese so different!_ is just romanticising them
for not being us. It may not quite rise to racism, but it certainly is silly.

------
orijing
I am surprised nobody mentioned this yet: Japan has a much MUCH lower level of
income (and wealth) inequality than the US, Haiti, etc. [1]

There are just a lot fewer poor people in Japan. So if your house got leveled
by the tsunami, you can go to your friends, relatives, family, etc for a
little help because they aren't half impoverished already.

I don't mean to demean the theory regarding social differences. I'm sure it's
very true that society's standards and everyone's individual respect for
shared property play crucial roles in the lack of looting. But I'm willing to
bet that economic factors made a difference too.

[1] [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html)

~~~
pessimizer
The UN Gini numbers:

    
    
      Japan: .249
      US: .408
      Haiti: .592
    

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equ...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality)

Aside from media exaggeration of looting, which is almost instant after a
disaster where there are significant numbers of black people. Pretty much, the
mirror image of this post. Google "looting in Japan" if you want to take a
sample of the most racist invective on the internet. I mean, if the Japanese
have honor in their blood...

------
po
Japan takes a lot of criticism for being a closed off culture. After living
here for a while I have started to believe that it is necessary to support
these values. Multiculturalism means lowest common denominator. There are
efficiencies you can gain by having a monoculture. Nobody has to lock their
bikes, subways can have nice cloth seats and you can walk around in any
neighborhood and be safe.

When I came to Tokyo, a lot of foreigners I met who had been living here
complained about the uptight nature of Japan. Too rigid, too exclusive, too
slow to change.

Before Tokyo, I lived in a very nice part of Brooklyn. I remember I was
walking down the street and I saw a man with his child come out of a store.
The kid unwrapped his new toy and promptly threw the package onto the curb. I
had a flash of anger and was thinking "what's wrong with that guy not
correcting his kid?" As I was thinking this, the guy threw his cigarette pack
cellophane on the sidewalk. He had different values than me, and I had a dirty
street because of it.

In a place like Brooklyn you learn tolerance and how to live with other
people's values on a day to day basis. In a place like Tokyo, the system shuns
you until you adopt their values. I don't think either is necessarily better
but you should be aware of it when you live in Japan and feel left out.

~~~
mapgrep
"There are efficiencies you can gain by having a monoculture. Nobody has to
lock their bikes, subways can have nice cloth seats and you can walk around in
any neighborhood and be safe."

Bangladesh is 98% ethnic Bengali; you can read about their crime here
[http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1011.html#c...](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1011.html#crime)
("U.S. citizens should avoid walking alone after dark, carrying large sums of
money, or wearing expensive jewelry").

Lesotho is 99.7 percent Basotho, with an intentional homicide rate seven times
higher than the U.S.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

Meanwhile, Singapore, split between large numbers of Chinese, Malays and
Indians is one of the safest places in the world
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Singapore>). Also safe is Switzerland,
which is so ethnically diverse there are three official languages, each widely
spoken within the country.
([http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1034.html#c...](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1034.html#crime))
.

~~~
po
Please note that I'm _not_ saying all monocultures are safe. I am certainly
also not saying multi-cultures are unsuccessful. This has nothing to do with
safety or success, more efficiency gains and tolerance costs. I'm trying to
raise a nuanced point and I went out of my way to say neither is better than
the other.

I think the efficiency gained depends on the culture gaining it. Japan has
decided that they value safety. In Bangladesh there are probably different
assumptions you can make. I don't know what they are and I don't want to
speculate because I don't have any experience living there.

 _edit:_ also wanted to add... even though Switzerland is ethnically diverse
and speaks many different languages, I would still call it a mono-culture. The
swiss are also sometimes criticized for being unique in their ways and
resistant to change. Culture is not the same as race or language.

~~~
mapgrep
"Please note that I'm not saying all monocultures are safe."

Sure, but you attributed safety and other "efficiencies" in Japan to
"monoculture." You also wrote, "Multiculturalism means lowest common
denominator."

Now you seem to be attributing safety in Japan not to monoculture but to
/Japanese/ culture. Fair enough.

In that case, what would happen if 10 million Japanese moved to Bangladesh,
making it more multicultural? Would it be a less "efficient" culture? Would it
be anchored by the "lowest common denominator," or would the nation improve
through the infusion of new cultural values? It seems doubtful that, after
conducting this thought experiment, most people could honestly conclude that,
"Multiculturalism means lowest common denominator." It likewise seems hard to
imagine Singapore in its present state -- including efficiency-wise -- if all
those ethnic Chinese has never migrated there.

The big context here is that you were defending Japan against criticism that
it is a "closed off culture" and "too exclusive, too slow to change." That
criticism is very well earned; for all its many virtues, there is a disturbing
level of racism in Japan, against Koreans and Americans of black heritage
(usually in military service there but not always, see
[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101880815-...](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101880815-149882,00.html)).
There is also the matter of Japan's depressingly extended economic stagnation,
going on 20 years old now, which is widely and credibly explained as being
closely tied to an unwillingness to embrace new, often foreign values around
business, corporate culture, risk taking, credit and competition.

The one time I visited Japan, for two weeks, I conjured many positive words to
describe the country. "Efficient" was not one of them. The grueling, sit-at-
your desk 14 hour workdays that are de rigueur in Japan are not particularly
efficient. The make-work jobs everywhere also seemed inefficient, like the guy
in a uniform bowing in apology non-stop to people driving by a construction
detour in the road, or the full time ticket taker/thanker in the back of the
bus who collected my payment stub. The many ritual greetings and apologies
also did not seem efficient.

I have a hard time seeing how multiculturalism would not ENHANCE Japan's
efficiency -- and economy.

Update:

"The swiss are also sometimes criticized for being unique in their ways and
resistant to change. Culture is not the same as race or language."

In that case, Brooklyn is a monoculture of New Yorkers, or Americans, and your
original distinction between it and Japan is rather meaningless.

~~~
po
_Now you seem to be attributing safety in Japan not to monoculture but to
/Japanese/ culture. Fair enough._

Yes I wasn't careful enough in my writing. I mean to say that monoculture
allows you to optimize around your values. Lowest common denominator sounds
too judgmental but I mean it in the set-theory kind of way. I probably should
just have said "common values".

 _what would happen if 10 million Japanese moved to Bangladesh, making it more
multicultural? Would it be a less "efficient" culture?_

Yes, I think there would be certain generalizations that you could no longer
depend on being true. I don't know what they would be. Maybe it would be
better, maybe worse. Maybe it would be you would have to order a wider variety
of food at your wedding to make everyone happy. I don't know. I would say
that's a reduction in efficiency.

I am aware of racism here and I don't think it's good. I don't think Japanese
companies are economically efficient but they pretty good at reflecting
Japanese values. I eat a restricted diet and it's an inconvenience that people
assume that I just eat the standard issue Japanese cuisine. A lot of people
complain about that but I understand why it is that way.

I don't see what is so controversial about what I'm trying to say. I'm saying
that having to always be tolerant for the way other people do things trades
something off compared to living where everyone already does things mostly the
way you would.

~~~
mapgrep
I think I grok your meaning of "efficiency" now; I'm definitely not suggesting
you are an intolerant person.

I would politely challenge, however, the idea that there's roughly equal
virtue between Brooklyn-style embraced diversity vs Japan-style conformity.
Not only does multiculturalism have a genuine moral attractiveness, which
should not be dismissed, it makes for a stronger, more resilient country over
the long term. Fresh ideas, fresh values, fresh labor, fresh taxpayers, fresh
consumers, fresh inventors and indeed fresh culture are stengths that have
been indispensable in allowing the U.S. to overcome its many deep (and often
chronic) flaws and attain the level of economic and cultural success that it
has. Similarly, a tendency toward xenophobia has hampered Japan's many
intrinsic strengths, which have nevertheless been strong enough to set the
country as an (oft misinterpreted) example of How To Win.

TLDR: Monoculture is a harmful, false optimization at the national level
(though quite useful within, say, an apartment, church or startup incubator).

~~~
koudelka
This reminded me of a quote from Shirow Masamune's Ghost In The Shell:

"No matter how powerful we may be fighting-wise, a system where all the parts
react the same way is a system with a fatal flaw. Like individual, like
organization. Overspecialization leads to death."

------
chrismealy
This was already debunked:

'Professor Pflugfelder evidently needs to study Japanese history a little
better because after the Great Kanto Earthquake of 1923 there was widespread
looting and rioting, and during the firebombings of WWII looting was a common
practice. If these are deep cultural roots, they only go back about two
generations'

[http://partialobjects.com/2011/03/is-looting-our-default-
rea...](http://partialobjects.com/2011/03/is-looting-our-default-reaction-to-
trouble/)

~~~
kentosi
I just read the article, and the one main point s/he makes that struck me is
that in Japan, as opposed to Katrina, the citizens KNOW that they'll be looked
after.

Comparing the situation to here in Australia where we had floods and
hurricanes, it's the same: we know that the government will look after us.

So I agree with him/her. It's got nothing to do with culture/etc. Because if
you take away all the efforts the government and international community are
making, then I bet the situation in Japan would be totally different.

------
micheljansen
This is something that really surprised me about Japanese culture. I went
there in 2008 for a study tour and one of the things that really impressed me
is how different their attitude towards shared property and public space is.

On numerous occasions I saw things where I thought: wow, in my country (The
Netherlands) this would totally get abused, vandalized or stolen. Not that my
country is not safe or dirty, just that it is individualized to the extent
that people place more value on the well-being of themselves and their stuff
than that which they share with others or the public space.

Some examples:

Vending machines are so ubiquitous in Japan that they are an icon in itself.
Trash cans, on the other hand, are not. However, you rarely see trash on the
streets. Not because there are exorbitant penalties for this, people simply
don't do it. People simply drag their trash along until they get to a place
with a trash can (maybe their home or office) and dispose of it there.

In crowded areas, there are always plenty of public toilets and they are
generally free to use. Not once have I seen one that was dirty or vandalized.

At one point, I found myself in a packed bus that had one of those old-
fashioned destination "tickers" made out of a roll of paper with the names of
all destinations printed on it. When we still had those buses in my country,
they were encased in industry-grade steel enclosures, lest people break the
thing or change the destination. In Japan, one could just reach out and do
just that, yet nobody did.

In six week of traveling through Japan, visiting dozens of places and most
major cities, I saw one wall that had graffiti on it. This was so special that
I took a picture of it.

I think it is too easy to "blame" this cultural difference on a "shame"
effect, as is often done. I spoke to a lot of Japanese people and my
impression is quite different. I would say the major reason why there is so
little looting in Japan, is that rather than thinking about their own petty
interests first, Japanese consider the quality of the public or shared space
to be just as important to their personal well-being. In other words: when
western people throw their trash on the floor, they think "Good, I got rid of
my trash"; for Japanese people nothing changed, since it is still in "their"
space, so they better dispose of it properly.

Disclaimer: I am by no means an expert on all things Japanese. I was just
there for six weeks and this is my impression, I might very well be totally
wrong :)

~~~
donw
There's plenty of graffiti, just not in plain sight. Look in the alleys.

Regarding the trash, there's two forces at work. One is that there's a rich
naturalist tradition here. Japanese _love_ nature, which is why you see so
many people enjoying the parks here. Littering goes against that tradition,
and the second force at work is that Japanese people really don't buck
tradition.

~~~
mc32
To me, the way they "love" nature, is a bit different form the nature I'm used
to. Nature means a weekend walk in the park -meanwhile many riparian areas
have simply been paved over. So the love for nature is a little different.
It's more "human tamed nature". It's kind of like when humans (yama girls)
outnumber trees that you know it's not really nature.

Agree with the rest though.

------
kstenerud
Same reason nobody vandalizes vending machines, even when they're quite
literally in the middle of nowhere along the side of an unfrequented road in
the countryside.

Same reason it's unthinkable for a Japanese to take fruit or berries hanging
outside of someone's yard, even when it's falling off the branch and rotting
on the ground, and yet they'd hardly think twice in their downtown drunken
stupor to steal a bicycle to get them home after the trains had shut down for
the night.

They have different social norms there.

~~~
kmfrk
Japanese vending machines also have a safety lever (of sorts) that makes all
the beverages free, in the event of a catastrophe.

I don't know how it works specifically, but I'm sure there would be better
ways than to vandalize the machines in order to obtain the contents.

~~~
huhtenberg
I don't know if this is true, but this was making rounds today:

    
    
      If you need water, Suntory vending machines have emergency
      levers beneath a sticker on the upper-right corners. Pull
      the sticker off, pull the lever firmly and you’ll get free 
      drinks.

------
naner
[http://partialobjects.com/2011/03/is-looting-our-default-
rea...](http://partialobjects.com/2011/03/is-looting-our-default-reaction-to-
trouble/)

 _when you feel like you’re on your own, when you feel abandoned and the only
one who you can depend on is you, then yes, you’re going to do what you have
to do to survive. This has been seen around the world in many countries and
cultures. The big difference in postwar modern Japan is that people are
confident that help is on the way._

...

 _Here’s where you see a glaring cultural difference: virtually nobody in
contemporary Japan has this kind of contempt for their fellow countrymen. Yet
prewar Japan was deeply divided along class lines, and when disaster happened
and the poor starved and burned, neither the government nor the upper classes
could be bothered to give a shit. Currently in Japan there are calls for the
government to scrap proposed tax cuts and use the money for relief efforts.
Can you imagine the same happening in the US?_

~~~
yummyfajitas
_Can you imagine the same happening in the US?_

No, we would have both tax cuts and relief efforts funded by deficit spending.
That's something you can do when your debt to GDP ratio is 60% and when the
world considers your bonds to be risk free.

It's trickier for Japan to do that - their debt to GDP ratio is 200% already
(second only to Zimbabwe).

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_pub...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_public_debt)

~~~
bcaulf
Wow, I did not know that. Worse than Greece at 144%!

------
patio11
Looting is the exception in most Western nations, not the rule. I love crime
here, don't get me wrong, but how many reports of widespread looting have we
ever heard in the US? Rodney King riots, Katrina (and that was exaggerated)...
that's about it, right? Massive floods strike Iowa, war breaks out, terrorist
attacks, lethal heat waves, Bulls win trophy, none of these calamities cause
looting.

Yeah, one of those things is not like the others _sigh_.

~~~
bilbo0s
Wow,

where did you get the idea that no one in Iowa got robbed during the floods?

As a matter of full disclosure, I think I should tell you that I lived there
at the time of the flood and had to listen to my neighbor go on and on about
what he was dealing with. Neighbor was a cop.

------
joebananas
Man, you guys are just busting out with the exotism in this here thread.
"People there carry honor in their blood"...

~~~
9999
The original article is definitely full of that sentiment, although the
responses here are more measured.

Still, why has no one mentioned the fact that there is nothing left to loot in
the areas most effected?

~~~
w1ntermute
I do believe joebananas is referring to this[0] comment, which is indeed on
HN:

> Honor is something we can't describe but japanese people carry it in their
> blood.

0: <http://hackerne.ws/item?id=2330020>

------
Pahalial
So I read that, and the first thing that jumped out to me from the quotes:
"The so-called civilized world can learn much from the stoic Japanese."

If you don't consider Japan part of the "civilized world" you have probably
not updated your social mores since WW2 and should reconsider that before
commenting further.

~~~
biot
Either I'm misunderstanding you, or you read that the wrong way around. The
point is that those who _do_ consider themselves civilized are, in reality,
not civilized when compared to the Japanese.

------
bluehat
Many other people on this thread have compiled lists of "western" tragedies
that did not come to looting, so I think calling it a cultural thing is out.

I think the difference is that when people believe the world is watching and
that help is coming (ie September 11th, this earthquake) they maintain their
composure. People destroy and loot when they feel that the world has forgotten
them and that help is not coming. During Hurricane Katrina the government was
quite slow to respond. In Haiti it took nearly two days to reach twitter/the
public and trigger international relief. Almost nobody was there to hold them
over until then, and chaos happened. I think this is quite rational: if you
felt the world had ended and that it was not going to be made better, you'd
probably act like an animal and only think of yourself too.

------
panarky
Japan certainly has social mores that discourage petty crime.

There are also practical considerations at play. The damage is so severe that
there's not much left to loot, and there's and nowhere for looters to keep
what they steal.

The article makes comparisons with Haiti and Katrina, but the damage in Japan
is more total than either of these. In many towns there is literally nothing
left.

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366395/Japan-
tsunam...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366395/Japan-tsunami-
earthquake-Haunting-images-450-Britons-feared-missing.html)

~~~
donw
Also, if you loot, you're ostracized. You will forever be remembered by your
community and friends as a thief.

It's very, very hard to form a new group of friends, if you have no existing
connections to leverage.

------
mistermann
This is probably a presumptuous or naive statement, but the very first thing
that came to my mind was: if you have ever been to Japan, you wouldn't even
think of asking this question.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
By all means, please do elaborate.

~~~
kragen
I was thinking the same thing. Modern Japanese culture looks very negatively
at people who put their own interests ahead of everybody else's, to an extent
that you probably can't imagine if you haven't been there, and this is backed
up by very low levels of inequality.

I remember a news program I was watching in our Japanese class in, uh,
probably 1992. A couple of policemen were interviewing a distraught
convenience-store clerk who had just been robbed.

"Did he look blue-collar, or white-collar, or what?"

"He just looked like a normal person! But obviously he wasn't, because he
robbed the store!"

Our whole class (this was in the US) burst out laughing. The idea that, in
order to commit armed robbery, a person would have to have some kind of mental
abnormality — it was so alien to us as to be comical. That idea used to exist
in US culture; Lombroso's theories used to be popular, eugenic policies were
often justified on the basis that "morons" were likely to be criminals, and
the word "crook" was a neat little package wrapping up the idea of mental
abnormality causing lawbreaking. Much of Clarence Darrow's career was spent
defending the most abhorrent criminals on the basis that their criminality was
beyond their control, although not merely because of mental defects.

But, at least since the 1970s, an alternative conception of law and
lawbreaking has been popular in the US — perhaps due to the absurd drug war,
perhaps due to the discovery of abuses like the Tuskegee experiment, J. Edgar
Hoover's campaigns of persecution against national heroes like MLK, and
government deceptions about Vietnam and the dangers of fallout from open-air
nuclear testing, perhaps due to the increasing cultural influence of
Hollywood, or perhaps simply due to the failure of prosperity to be widely
shared.

Whatever the cause, though, people from the US almost universally think of
lawbreaking as a common and often harmless activity, not something limited to
the mentally handicapped or partially insane — something that many people
would do if the law weren't restraining them.

Also, in Japan, if you deviate from social norms, everyone will pressure you
to conform. In the US, it's usually just the police.

Therefore the difference in looting behavior is unsurprising. I hypothesize
that if you look back to 1955, you'll find natural disasters in the US with
almost no looting, too.

Here in Argentina, things are even more American than in the US.

~~~
dragons
> Whatever the cause, though, people from the US almost universally think of
> lawbreaking as a common and often harmless activity, not something limited
> to the mentally handicapped or partially insane - something that many people
> would do if the law weren't restraining them.

I don't think you're correct, that's certainly not a "universal" thought,
although I suppose there may be subcultures that believe this. I live in the
US, and I don't know anyone who thinks this way (at least no one I've
discussed it with). We think criminals had a bad upbringing, or that they have
some kind of psychological problem (which may be due to physical brain
problems).

> "He just looked like a normal person! But obviously he wasn't, because he
> robbed the store!"

I like this response; it sounds like the response I'd have given.

~~~
kragen
> I live in the US, and I don't know anyone who thinks this way

You don't know anyone who thinks of _any of_ jaywalking, speeding, streaking,
riding in a car without a seatbelt, smoking marijuana, and snorting cocaine as
common and often harmless activities? _Everyone_ you know thinks of _all of_
them as activities limited to the mentally handicapped or partially insane?

~~~
BrandonM
Maybe the parent poster is from a rural area and hasn't yet reached driving
age.

------
dfischer
The Japanese have a lot of respect. When I visited a common thing said was "If
you leave your wallet on the street and come back a day later, it's likely it
will still be there or in the closest shop."

~~~
staunch
This actually happened. When we were living in Tokyo my wife lost her wallet.
A day later she found that it was sitting in the basket of her bicycle outside
our building. This was a busy street in a business district (Nihonbashi) with
hundreds of people going past it and it was a large new coach wallet with at
least a few hundred in cash.

Not that someone wouldn't have eventually stolen it though.

~~~
kmfrk
>Not that someone wouldn't have eventually stolen it though. Japan is only
nearly Utopian.

Let's be careful with the orientalism. The suicide rate[1][2] is one thing
that personally bothers me.

Japan is fundamentally different from the West, and this has its advantages
and disadvantages.

[1]:
[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_count...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)

[2]:
[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_OECD_...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_suicide_rate)

~~~
nivertech
Clear trends:

* Southern Europe/Mediterranean/Levantine countries - low suicide rates.

* English-speaking/Northern countries/former Communist block in Eastern Europe/Developed Asian countries - high suicide rates.

Seems to be related to amount of daylight, climate, stress and competition.

~~~
jules
Has anybody else noticed the magical effect of sunlight? A few days ago was
the first sunny day of the year. Everyone was very happy.

~~~
defen
Magic, or a surge of vitamin D3 in their bloodstreams.

------
vacri
This is an outrageously biased article. The previous two globally-advertised
large-scale disasters happened in western anglo countries and had minimal, if
any, looting. I'm talking about the floods that devastated Brisbane and the
Queensland coast, quickly followed by a category 5 cyclone smashing into
Townsville (Australia) and the Christchurch earthquake where the centre of the
city was levelled (New Zealand).

Both of these disasterous events had extremely little looting. Both of these
events saw _strong_ outpourings of community spirit and solidarity, with lots
of volunteering and food drops. It's not something that's mysteriously
Japanese.

This is important because the article paints this as a Japan vs the World
thing by roping in the UK, Chile and Haiti.

The article lists the following as reasons why there is little looting in
Japan: \- buddhism and shinto \- honour and dignity \- conformity and
consensus \- national pride \- high discipline \- they return your lost wallet
\- more highly evolved race (!) Few of these are attributes that random
interviewees would say are characteristics of Australians or New Zealanders

The Japanese are a unique culture and credit needs be given where due, but we
need to stop talking about them as if they're magical and mysterious, beyond
mortal ken just like Tolkein's elves.

------
kierank
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the explanation that there's no looting
because the Government's emergency response is very good and people are
getting what they need at the shelters.

~~~
mc32
>there's no looting because the Government's emergency response is very
good...

That wasn't particularly the case during the great Hanshin EQ of 1995. I think
they did try to improve gov't response to disasters since then. So, yes, I
believe they have faith in the gov't, but it's not because of a stellar
record.

------
Kilimanjaro
I went there in the 90s and remember leaving my wallet in a store, then
walking down the street a man tapped my shoulder from the back and when I
turned I saw the store owner giving it back to me. Man I was touched by that
gesture. A couple of stores down the road we entered a jewelry and my gf tried
some expensive pearl necklaces just for the fun of it (like Y3M a pop ($30k
back then)) and she forgot to return the last one she tried. A couple of
blocks down we noticed and looked at each other with that weird sensation and
the urge to return it, like if we were guilty of something we really didn't
do.

And we did, they guy thanked us like a million times. We felt the most
honorable people on earth. Honor is something we can't describe but japanese
people carry it in their blood.

~~~
fierarul
>that weird sensation and the urge to return it, like if we were guilty of
something we really didn't do.

Same thing happened to us in a Spanish clothing shop. Wife went out with some
blouse she tried and somehow this didn't trip that alarm at the door. While
groceries shopping nearby we notice the blouse.

>And we did, they guy thanked us like a million times. We felt the most
honorable people on earth.

We go return the blouse, the alarm starts while we enter then we have to
fiddle explaining in half-Spanish what we meant to do.

We end up paying for the damn blouse, with the guard next to us but we don't
get a receipt because that's company policy (I'd guess a form of punishment so
you couldn't return the item).

In the end we both regretted returning it and kinda ruined the whole evening.

Not sure if this is a valid Spanish/European-Japanese comparison but it
certainly is a corporate versus humane shop comparison.

------
jules
A guy in my class parked a shiny bike not locked for a month. After a month
when he came back it was still there. The chances of this happening in
Amsterdam are very slim. Even if you only lock your bike to something with a
big chain somebody with a metal cutter will come and get it if the bike is
shiny. And better lock both of your wheels and the frame through the chain or
else you end up with a bike without wheels. Unfortunately the steering wheel
and saddle are not so easily locked.

~~~
vacri
The saddle is just as easily locked - get a light chain and a padlock, wrap it
around one of the underwires of your saddle.

As for 'steering wheel'... a bike that unusual is asking to be stolen by a
curious enthusiast :)

~~~
jules
My bike doesn't have this, although my racing bike does. Unfortunately racing
bikes as made in such a way that you can detach parts easily in a couple of
seconds...so it's really necessary to bring two locks or one very long one to
lock everything.

------
zspade
NPR had a good piece about how the Chinese looked at the Japanese and wondered
the same thing when hey had so much price gouging and looting themselves
during their last major earthquake.

~~~
est
Ok, just to be clear, since when did Chinese start looting in earthquakes? I
admit there are prices gouging in the 2008 earthquake, but looting?

~~~
zspade
There was some looting during the 2008 earthquake, but not really that much
upon doing more research. They did have significant issues with price gouging
on essential goods like food/water/blanknets etc. The way the NPR worded it,
and the chinese nationals they got sounds bites from made it easy to jump to
the wrong conclusions...

------
teyc
Broken windows at work here. Nobody loots because nobody else loots.

In any instance, it takes a few disgruntled, enterprising people to start a
riot or mass vandalism. Particularly the disaffected.

Racial homogeneity can only go so far to explain things, but Japan is a
country where people generally look out for one another. When I was there,
people were so polite that I thought these people were feigning politeness. I
remembered walking out of a food stall when the head waiter would call out
that a customer is leaving, and all the wait staff would turn around and bow
and ask us to come again. It was simply amazing. I guess by learning to be
polite even when you are tired, stressed, you become very good at being
outwardly calm and it helps to maintain social order.

Incidentally, I remembered the caning incident where a young expat in
Singapore spray painted cars and got several strokes of cane as a punishment.
Wanton destruction is an alien concept to me when I grew up in Asia. A lot of
vandalism with spray painting were simply copy cats importing an unwanted
culture.

------
geoffw8
This was the first thing I thought about when it all kicked off. I watched a
video on one of the news reports and when the earthquake hit, staff in the
stores instead of hiding tried steadying shelves to stop things falling off.

We honestly have a long way to go.

~~~
pyre
Japan also gets more earthquakes than most places that you're probably used
to. Even though this one was larger, it seems that to the Japanese, dealing
with earthquakes is rote.

------
forkandwait
I think it is high level of "human capital" plus an understanding that your
society is a cooperative venture. I am not sure, but I would hazard that most
Japanese are highly literate, brought up to behave well, and that there is
actually a social contract in force. I am willing to bet just a little bit of
money that your average high school grad (i.e. "working class") Japanese
person would rival our state college educated class for both high levels of
good behavior and knowledge. I bet there would be similar behavior in the
Scandinavian countries.

And, interestingly, everyone would expect the students at a state college or
better to behave just like the Japanese.

Really, the fact that there is such widespread poverty, thuggery, and low
educational levels in the US is just plain embarrassing. That you can't trust
the people you live around is the weird thing, not that you can.

------
temphn
The answer to this question is completely obvious to people who spent
formative years in Asia and are free of American/Western taboos (we have other
taboos no doubt but not these).

Here is why there is no looting in Japan. Across the world -- in the US, UK,
Canada, Brazil, South Africa and any country where they live side by side --
people of primarily Northeast Asian descent tend to commit crime at lower
rates than people of primarily European descent, who in turn tend to commit
crime at lower rates than people of primarily sub-Saharan African descent.

You can google the various crime stats if you aren't aware of this. Here are
the California state statistics:

<http://stats.doj.ca.gov/cjsc_stats/prof09/00/22.htm>

Divide that by California population totals to get the rank ordering of
violent crime rates by population.

You can also look at table 43 of the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, which is fine
for establishing the black/Asian violent crime ratio, but which lumps
Hispanics in with whites, inflating the apparent white violent crime rate.

<http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_43.html>

Similar stats can be obtained for other countries with a bit of googling. Now,
the absolute magnitudes do change (1), which one could legitimately ascribe to
the local culture. But the trend is very consistent.

There isn't a country across the world that I'm aware of in which people of
primarily sub-Saharan African descent commit crime at a lower rate (or have
higher educational levels, incomes, and so on) than people of Northeast Asian
descent. Interested in counterexamples, but this appears to be a very
consistent pattern.

Obviously there are other factors as well. But the probability of looting
seems to be proportional to a group's propensity to disorganized violence
(e.g. murder, rape, robbery) and inversely proportional to their ability to
commit organized violence (e.g. military actions).

No doubt this post is extraordinarily blasphemous. But someone had to say what
a good fraction of the rest of the world is thinking.

(1) Cultural variation seems to shift magnitudes but not rank ordering. That
is, it does not appear to be a large enough factor to make Northeast Asian
descent individuals in country X commit more crime than sub-Saharan African
descent individuals in country Y. At least, I couldn't find any examples of
this for any (X, Y) pair in the world, but perhaps you can.

~~~
smackfu
Conflating race and socio-economic status is a pretty classic justification
for racism.

------
winestock
At the same time, we must ask: Why _so much_ looting in Haiti and New Orleans?

------
Emore
This is not a perfect truth. Friend reports that her family have seen
(directly or indirectly, I don't know) both theft and rape. Nonetheless, the
extent is probably much less than any other place of crisis.

------
Chi019
Population genetics, as it affects those parts of the nervous system involved
in social behavior, together with geography and a long common history,
predisposed the Japanese to strong ethnonationalism and social stability in a
well-organized and well-supervised hierarchical order. Under premodern
conditions this did not preclude intracommunal violence under codes widely
understood and enforced; but in the affluent post-WW2 world, with good
standards of health and education, and under imposed consensual government
following certain highly salutary experiences, these old factors directed the
Japanese to an exceptionally high level of nonviolent social cohesion and
intense but benign racial-national consciousness.

[http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/262162/people-want-
know...](http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/262162/people-want-know-contd-
john-derbyshire)

------
bilbo0s
One word : 'Individualism'

The article mentions UK floods, Chile and Haiti earthquakes, and Katrina. The
UK, Chile, Haiti and US are all 'Individual at the Center' societies. By
contrast, Japan is not so 'Individualist' a society.

You may have less looting in a place like Japan after a natural disaster of
this scale. However, if there is ever say ... oh ... a recession, you will
have 100,000,000 people standing around waiting for the authorities to 'fix
it'. You will observe far fewer people launching startups for instance, than
you would in similar recessionary environment in say ... Chile.

Just wanted to make sure everyone realized that 'it cuts both ways' as it
were. All societies have strengths and weaknesses. In fact, as in this case,
the strength of any society usually is its weakness.

~~~
InclinedPlane
More so, modern Japan is not a pure entity, it is the product of Japan's prior
history, the events of WWII, the American occupation, the reconstruction, and
the close ties with America since. Without all of the latter Japan as a nation
would be quite different today.

------
hasenj
I think it's really just because there aren't many poor people (socialism is
good :D)

I'm pretty sure it's not honor. Middle Eastern cultures also put plenty of
emphasis on honor and dignity, but there are many poor pockets of society that
simply ignore these values during times of crises.

------
maxklein
I'd personally think that it's because the japanese have a greater sense of
'us' than in countries where looting occurs. Nobody thinks to loot from their
family, only from other people.

------
krig
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because there are no news
reports about looting doesn't mean it's not going on. The social difference
may be in how news are reported, not in how people cope with disaster. I'm not
saying that's what is going on, just saying that the statement "there is no
looting in Japan" is taken as fact without any closer examination, which is a
very unscientific approach.

~~~
krig
Also, from the photos of the stricken areas that I've seen; what are you going
to loot? Everything is destroyed, there is no way to get around, there are
rescue teams working around the clock. It's not a situation where houses were
flooded but remain mostly intact. There are no houses anymore.

Photos of empty store shelves are from areas outside the disaster zone where
people are preparing for a possible radiation disaster where they would be
unable to go out of their homes for days. That's not a situation that is
conductive to looting.

------
davidasikin
I've collected heartwarming tweets from the eye-witnesses of 2011 Sendai
earthquake as seen on Twitter timeline.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2330680>

They tell their experiences following the earthquake. These snippets of what
moved them and touched them during these very trying times are heart-warming.

From the tweets you can see the spirit of "in it together".

------
grammaton
By and large people _don't_ go crazy looting during disasters. The idea that
the moment authority disappears, we instantly devolve in to dog-eat-dog
anarchy is a myth - mostly promulgated by those who feel it's their job to be
the one in charge.

There are notable exceptions, of course, but for the most part people can do a
pretty good job of policing themselves.

------
jjordan
People respecting people, even in great tragedy and chaos. Refreshing.

~~~
jf271
From another board:

"We have friends over there and what info we are getting is that they are
having to deal with heartache and problems of Biblical proportions. If it
weren't for those citizens who are in the older age group who know what to do
in desperate times there would be more problems. The older people are self
reliant and remember Hiroshima, Nagasaki...they know how to share with each
other and help each other in the worst of times. Panic has not gripped them as
it would a lot of other countries...look at Haiti..look at other regions where
something less than this has taken hold and how they react."

------
danenania
Aside from the strong cultural values and homogeneity of that culture, I would
think socioeconomic factors must have a major impact. I don't know how the
statistics stack up in Japan, but looting is generally an activity of the poor
and disenfranchised. Anyone have data pertinent to this?

~~~
kentbuckle
<http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/world/asia/22poverty.html> The poverty rate
in Japan isn't that much lower than the US (15.7% vs. 17.1% according to the
article). However, people below that line in Japan are somewhat unwilling to
admit being in poverty.

~~~
rick888
It's not only people that are poor, but people that have a poor culture that
loot. I can bet there were lots of poor people in Japan that didn't loot or
steal from their neighbors.

------
guelo
I can't find the link right now but I'm prety sure I saw a news report
yesterday about some looting happening. In any case, I see absolutely nothing
wrong with looting in an emergency situation where there is no access to food
and water.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
Well, that's surviving, not looting.

------
yannickmahe
There wasn't any looting also in the 2008 Chinese Wenchuan earthquake, where
people are much poorer. I don't think the absence of looting has anything to
do with the Japanese spirit, and is more about the human spirit.

I'd expect the same from anywhere.

------
mgutz
Does not surprise me at all. I remember being in Japan in the service for only
two weeks. Two things I remember:

1) I left a noodle restaurant and left a little too much for the bill. The
owner ran me down on the street and handed me the change. She would not accept
it as a tip even after I begged her to keep it for her honesty.

2) A policeman on foot simply has to waive an orange baton at you if you were
speeding. Offenders just pulled over.

There is much to admire about Japanese culture. Really what it comes down to
is, the USA is a ME-first culture. Japan is an US-first culture. I always say
the way to get back at Japan and most of Asia is to westernize them.

------
starpilot
I've heard anecdotally that the Japanese are horribly repressed. They also
have the second-highest suicide rate among industrialized nations:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_suici...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_suicide_rate)
(South Korea is #1, USA is #20). They may be composed, but their culture is
far from an ideal.

------
Chi019
From a review of Wilson and Herrnstein's Crime and Human Nature:

    
    
        "Criminals tend to be young males who are muscular rather than thin, and who have lower-than-average IQs and impulsive, "now"-oriented personalities, which make planning or even thinking about the future difficult."
    

Is there any group other than the Japanese for whom that description would be
less fitting?

------
furyg3
Income equality?
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gini_Coefficient_World_CIA...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gini_Coefficient_World_CIA_Report_2009.png)

If you already have about the same amount of stuff as everyone else, stealing
seems silly.

------
Keile
But there is looting in Japan.

Andrew Sullivan on The Atlantic has articles linking to cases of looting,
fraud, child molestation and hoarding.

The Japanese government itself just isn't very forthright with regards to
collecting and releasing information about victims and events.

------
michaelty
I'm guessing they haven't run out of food yet. Then there's the "no guns"
thing.

------
stcredzero
In part, it's the Yakuza. In the neighborhoods they control, no one commits
crimes they disapprove of. It's much better for it to be peaceful for the
gambling and other revenues.

~~~
splat
That would be really interesting if true. Do you have any sources to back that
up?

~~~
kstenerud
No. The Yakuza generally do not participate in civilian affairs, nor are they
interested in "policing", except where someone becomes a personal nuisance to
a higher-up or someone disrupts their business.

Their primary interest lies in the financial side of mizu-shobai type
establishments, gambling, and money laundering.

They also offer thug-work-for-hire, which is helpful when the police aren't,
but you've got to be careful dealing with them because there tend to be hidden
costs to their "help".

* whoops. replied at the wrong level :P

~~~
kstenerud
What I am saying is that the lack of looting has nothing to do with the
Yakuza.

------
kingkawn
From what I've heard many vendors are also giving away their goods, especially
food, during the crisis, so it sorta precludes looting doesn't it?

------
ChRoss
I'm not a Japanese, but I will say it's because of their Bushido spirit
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido>

------
georgieporgie
Japan seems to have very little crime, or at least, very little obvious crime.
This may be rooted in their distant past. Here is a quote from "Sources of
Japanese Tradition - From Earliest Times to 1600" which contains description
of Japan by Chinese from around 297 CE:

There is no theft, and litigation is infrequent. In case of violations of the
law, the light offender loses his wife and children by confiscation; as for
the grave offender, the members of his household and also his kinsmen are
exterminated.

------
funthree
How about because the Japanese have been living on that island for what,
30,000 years? I think they have a sense of longevity in their culture that we
could all really learn from.

~~~
olivercameron
So have the people of England, what's your point?

~~~
michaeldhopkins
No, they have not. Roman Briton was a different society than pre-Roman Briton.
The Anglo-Saxons came about 1500 years ago and nearly completely replaced the
Britons, genetically and culturally. The Norman invasion was about 950 years
ago and greatly changed Anglo-Saxon culture, although not as much as the AS
changed post-Roman Briton. There were several other invaders (Danes, etc.) as
well.

By contrast, the Japanese are perhaps 3,000 years old as a distinct ethnic
group on the island.

~~~
wyclif
_The Anglo-Saxons came about 1500 years ago and nearly completely replaced the
Britons, genetically and culturally_

Replaced in that region, but the Celtic peoples were driven West and North
(Wales, Cornwall, and Northumbria).

~~~
michaeldhopkins
Yes, that is true, and I should have mentioned Northumbria especially because
that was a wonderful culture, but their numbers were still greatly reduced.
Cornish culture is now completely wiped out.

Edit: Cornishness wiped out as far as continuity. I respect the "revival
movement" but the re-rooting process will take awhile even if most of the
people there support it.

------
rajpaul
Does looting commonly follow earth quakes in a large percentage of other
countries?

