
Paris to Create 650 Kilometers of Post-Lockdown Cycleways - mpweiher
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2020/04/22/paris-to-create-650-kilometers-of-pop-up-corona-cycleways-for-post-lockdown-travel/
======
brnt
Let's hope that they have it be designed by actually experienced road
designers, and/or people who commute by bike. So much a French bike infra is
so clearly build by people who never use it. Turns too sharp, cycle lanes next
to parking strips (French motorists don't check where they swing their doors),
lanes that end a busy intersections (creating intersection arenas), places
where you need them the most...

I'm from the Netherlands and I see there's a serious effort in France, but
before they build anymore they really need to get some experience into the
design. Much of the infra barely helps having a safe and comfortable commute
like we have back home.

~~~
tasogare
> Under her plans, Paris was to remove 72% of its on-street car parking
> spaces.

Totally a political promise made by the kind of people who think subway
tickets cost 5€ and only use official cars that comes with driver and parking.

I hate cars in Paris as much as anyone, but they are required in a number of
cases and this measure will hugely impact negatively the mid-class and poors
that needs to commute to Paris for work, while not impacting the (very) richs
that can live in the center.

~~~
rossng
This is a common refrain, but I don't think it's supported by evidence. The
poorest people cannot afford own a car[1] - and one can hypothesise that the
high entry cost (purchasing a car, buying insurance) is a significant reason
for this. Other methods of transport, such as cycling, walking, buses and
trains do not have this high entry cost and so are much more accessible for
the most disadvantaged people in our society.

It's also critical to have a strong urban planning policy that allows people
to live near to where jobs and transport hubs are. Suburbs inherently
advantage car owners (and, consequently, the richer people that can afford to
own a car).

[1] See, for example, data from the UK:
[https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/expenditure/datasets/percentageofhouseholdswithcarsbyincomegrouptenureandhouseholdcompositionuktablea47)

------
ejolto
I hope they actually separate the cycle path from the road with a physical
barrier and not just a yellow line like the photo in the article.

~~~
diggan
Don't be too hopeful about that. Barcelona in general is a bicycle-friendly
city, and most of the city-center bikelanes looks like this (lane on the
furthest right is the bi-directional bicycle lane):
[https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3894796,2.1634847,3a,75y,66....](https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3894796,2.1634847,3a,75y,66.49h,82.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sinf92SDCbqjnDPiWywm1Iw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dinf92SDCbqjnDPiWywm1Iw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D216.94206%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)

Most people seem fine with this arrangement, we're pretty used to tight
spaces, for people, cars, motorcycles and bicycles. Maybe this lane is only
fine because we don't have as much bicycle traffic as Amsterdam or Copenhagen,
but seems to work well right now.

~~~
Symbiote
"Armadillos"

I think that's pretty reasonable. Most lanes in the UK are just the paint,
without the plastic armadillos, and usually without the extra 30cm width.

------
PeterStuer
Any cycle path that is created with just a bucket of paint is not a cycle
path. I wonder how many of those kilometers will fail this test.

~~~
anotheryou
I'd think getting the space is a good first step and the harder part
politically, no?

Here is Berlin, but also just temporary for now: [https://www.cdu-
friedrichshain-kreuzberg.de/image/news/238.j...](https://www.cdu-
friedrichshain-kreuzberg.de/image/news/238.jpg) (in other areas parking cars
in between road and cycle way)

~~~
PeterStuer
I'm not saying it isn't good as a quick fix temporary measure, but over here
in Belgium this has been consistently used to pretty up the cycling path
numbers while doing nothing.

We even invented "cyclist suggestion paths" ("fietssuggestiestroken"
colloquially referred to as "paths of shame" (schaamstroken) [1]), which are
not cycling lanes as they explicitly allow cars to ride on them, but just a
color painted onto the right hand side of the car lane to advice cyclists not
to ride side-by-side (which is their right within inner-city limits) but ride
on the narrow painted strip behind each other, So this is an anti-cycling
measure, and it _still_ is counted as "cycling infrastructure".

[1]
[https://fietsbult.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/moscou7c.jpg](https://fietsbult.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/moscou7c.jpg)

~~~
labawi
Wow, you're allowed to ride side-by-side. Is that common in other countries?

Over here cars honk, even if 2 cyclists take only 1/2 a lane of 2 same-
direction lanes and <5 cars pass in a minute. OTOH, if you ride the same,
except the sheltered cyclist isn't there, they don't make a fuss even in
moderate traffic - they just don't like you talking.

------
fergie
Makes sense. Paris is currently not quite as cycle friendly as you might
think, given its early adoption of bike sharing and close association with
cyclesport.

~~~
himinlomax
I live in Paris and almost only travel by bicycle. It all depends where you're
going, but it's improved drastically in the past few years. In fact it started
with Vélib, the sudden increase in bikes forced other road users to expect
bikes and act accordingly.

------
mino
Milan is planning the same:
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/milan-seeks-
to...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/milan-seeks-to-prevent-
post-crisis-return-of-traffic-pollution)

------
buboard
considering how sars2 may be infecting through aerosols, it might not be a
great idea to cycle for high-risk people . OTOH, keeping people outdoors
reduces the infection rate by 19 times , and the sunlight kills the virus in 3
minutes, so anything that promotes outdoor instead of indoor congregations is
good

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041202...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041202031254X)

[https://news.yahoo.com/sunlight-destroys-coronavirus-very-
qu...](https://news.yahoo.com/sunlight-destroys-coronavirus-very-quickly-new-
government-tests-find-but-experts-say-pandemic-could-still-last-through-
summer-200745675.html)

------
hazeii
Isn't the most interesting point about this the assumption that people are
going to abandon public transport in favour of cars when the lockdowns end?

That seems to suggest we'll have more crowded roads with reduced capacity (due
to the added cycleways); maybe I'm being too pessimistic though, and we'll see
a big switch to WFH.

~~~
Vinnl
> That seems to suggest we'll have more crowded roads with reduced capacity
> (due to the added cycleways);

The goal of course is to have people actually use the cycleways, which should
increase capacity: you can fit multiple cyclists in the space used by a single
car driver.

~~~
baud147258
Except that in Paris those that take a car aren't exactly doing commutes that
can be done by bikes

~~~
diggan
Of course not everyone who is driving will immediately switch to bikes, that
would be unexpected. But many do use cars when they could have used bikes, but
because the infrastructure is poor, they chose cars. The ones that come from
outside the city can now park within range of their work and bike the rest.
Paris is notable for it's shitty traffic (and drivers...), so many would want
to switch to bikes, just to avoid going insane.

------
raarts
Never let a good crisis go to waste.

Having a fantastic cycling infrastructure didn't help us here in the
Netherlands. We have one of the highest death rates in Europe.

------
naskwo
Love it. London next?

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kazinator
A lot of the pre-post-lockdown talk by politicians will have a way of
vaporizing post-lockdown.

------
thisiswarry
Paris is in the middle of an election (aborted by lock-down). don't trust wha
tyou read.

~~~
ceejayoz
Give us a reason to trust this comment, then.

~~~
thisiswarry
it's just a campaign announce. there are no plans, no budget, no nothing. it
definitely does not deserve HN front page.

------
Noos
...i think there's a lot more important issues that cycleways, to be blunt.
Cycleways aren't going to help the tons of people that are out of jobs or lose
their jobs if we have any post-pandemic economic slowdowns, and a lot of
regions that depend on tourism are going to suffer a massive hit.

This is tending to the needs of the rich.

------
axegon_
This is pretty awesome. But even though as a cyclist myself, I am a bit
uncertain about bicycle lanes in Europe as a whole(maybe except Greece, Italy,
Spain, Malta, Portugal and so on, where the weather allows it). Let's take my
situation for instance, given that Greece is just 250-300 km south from me:
During the period between October and April cycling is pretty much impossible
unless you have a death wish - starting with heavy rain, followed by a meter
of snow and ice. That's 6 months out of the year during which those lanes and
paths are practically unusable. Sure, there are a few enthusiasts that will
carry on even in those conditions(and I know one or two of those) but in any
case, for 98% of cyclist, this is unthinkable(myself included). So in those 6
months, that whole are is simply unusable, while traffic jams expand beyond
reason.

~~~
Symbiote
In Denmark, the cycle lanes are swept clear of snow before the driving lanes.

There's slightly higher car and public transport use in the winter, but most
people don't stop cycling.

> as a cyclist myself,

Also, people here don't identify themselves like that. Just like people don't
say "I'm a driver" unless it's their job to drive a bus, taxi or truck.

I cycle to work, but it's not part of my identity.

~~~
axegon_
OK those are just semantics. I generally walk to work(it's ~4km largely
through green areas so a nice walk in the morning and evening). Somehow the
idea of carrying a backpack with an extra pair of clothes and having to shower
at work isn't very appealing to me. Semantically I mean "cyclist" as in I'll
go for a joyride in the evenings and 5-6 hours during weekends. When it's nice
and dry that is, rain and water probably bugs me more than you I suspect...
And a lot of people around here by the looks of it.

~~~
Scarblac
Why would you need a shower and different clothes for a short bicycle ride?

(disclaimer: am Dutch)

~~~
Ndymium
Finn here with a 3–7.5 km commute depending on which office I go to: hills. I
was in Amsterdam last summer and rode about 60 km one day with a shitty rental
bike and it was a breeze because there was only a couple of inclines that I
remember. Here it's constant up and down and I would surely need to shower at
work. Personally I have solved that with a pedelec, which takes the effort out
of the hills.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
On these kinds of discussions, claims about the need to shower at work after
cycling usually come from Americans (especially in their southern regions), so
it is rather surprising to hear it from a Finn. I feel like Finns pay more
attention to appropriate clothing for the season and activity, so they would
choose something to cycle in that is breathable and won’t leave them soaked in
sweat, and they would be willing to invest in e.g. a merino-wool base layer –
merino wool doesn’t stink even if one’s sweats in it.

Granted, I am chiefly getting this impression from what was sold in the sports
sections of clothing shops in downtown Helsinki when I was a student there,
and perhaps most of the native Finnish population finds that clothing just as
unaffordable as I did as a poor foreigner.

~~~
freeone3000
If it's 25C out, it really doesn't matter what you wear - if you exert
yourself outside, you're going to get sweaty. The American south is quite
warm. Wearing wool is ridiculous.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
It is not often 25C in Finland at commuting hours. And even when it is, a
merino-wool microweight base layer can easily be worn up to 30C and still keep
you cool and dry. That is why Smartwool etc. are so popular in the bicycle-
touring world.

The problem with the American South is not just heat but humidity, but again,
the challenges that they and people in similar climatic regions face are not
universal.

