
Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch - msh
http://www.seat31b.com/2017/08/99-beijing-flights-with-a-dangerous-catch/
======
greenyoda
Companies like this have been around for years, and whenever I read about them
I'm surprised that people would risk going to prison (or worse) just to get a
discounted air fare. I wouldn't even carry a package for a friend unless I
could see exactly what was inside, let alone carry a suitcase full of unknown
stuff for a total stranger.

Also, an inevitable question when going through security checkpoints in some
countries is "did you pack your own luggage". I assume that if you answer
"no", you'd be subjected to a very thorough search for bombs or contraband.

Calling a company "Airmule" seems to be a particularly bad choice, since the
term "mule" is commonly used to denote a person who carries smuggled drugs
(sometimes concealed inside their body).

~~~
rl3
> _Calling a company "Airmule" seems to be a particularly bad choice, since
> the term "mule" is commonly used to denote a person who carries smuggled
> drugs (sometimes concealed inside their body)._

No kidding. One has to wonder how the founders can't be aware of that. Perhaps
it was intended as a tongue-in-cheek name?

~~~
greenyoda
Perhaps it was. But security and customs officers aren't known for their great
sense of humor, so it's probably best to stick with names that don't suggest
drug trafficking.

~~~
madeofpalk
Side note: Just a few days ago I flew domestically within Australia just a
week after some anti-terror arrests and increased security screening (which
has since been lifted). As my bag went through it got flagged and the security
officer flagged the aerosol can. I was already pretty nervous already, so I
apologise profusely for the mistake.

Turns out the security officer was just a Regular Person, claimed deodorant
cans are his "bread and bitter" and had a little chuckle as he found it in my
toiletries bag.

~~~
gtirloni
What airport security had to say about a regular person impersonating security
agents?

~~~
JadeNB
> What airport security had to say about a regular person impersonating
> security agents?

I initially read madeofpalk's comment
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14940680](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14940680))
as it seems that you might have, so that it seemed to say that the supposed
security agent was not actually a security agent; but a second reading
suggests that the meaning is instead that, _in addition to_ being a security
agent, the person in question was a Regular Person, and had a sense of humour.

Repeated readings still do not reveal whether an Australian security agent
referring to something as his "bread and bitter" is a typo or intentional. :-)

~~~
matt4077
A bread & bitter is a typical Australian breakfast of stale bread and (when
available) an anise liquor.

It's derived from the continental "existentialist breakfast" of a black
coffee, cigarette, and Aspirin–but had to be adapted due to the bad
availability of commercial products in the past, as well as the higher
activity levels the Australian bush requires and the resulting danger of a
breakfast completely devoid of calories.

~~~
skinnymuch
I can't tell if this is real or not. I guess the joke is on me for not knowing
if you're satirizing with bitter and liquor or not.

~~~
matt4077
As @jonah found out, it's just a joke–only the "existentialist breakfast" is a
real thing that probably started as a joke, and that I've seen on one or two
menus of cafes willing to skirt the rules on selling pharmaceuticals.

But the joke is most definitely not "on you". As in: It wasn't meant to expose
anybody's shocking lack of knowledge of arcane Australian trivia.

------
Someone
[https://www.airmule.com/terms-of-service/](https://www.airmule.com/terms-of-
service/):

 _" Please note that, as stated above, the site, application and services are
intended to be used to facilitate travelers and senders connecting and
arranging item transportation directly with each other. Airmule cannot and
does not control the content contained in any package and the condition,
legality or suitability of any items and luggage. Airmule strongly advises
each traveler to inspect each item carefully. If a traveler does suspects an
item is illicit, do not transport and contact airmule. Airmule is not
responsible for and disclaims any and all liability related to any and all
available transportation. Accordingly, any inquiries will be made or accepted
at the member’s own risk."_

I don't know how long that has been there, but it is clear. They are brokers,
but don't accept any liability.

~~~
dghf
_" Airmule strongly advises each traveler to inspect each item carefully."_

But in their FAQs, they have this:

 _" Can I inspect the shipments?"_

 _" All travelers have the right to inspect their shipment(s) prior to
boarding. However, please note that Airmule manually inspects and verifies
each item for safety before traveler handoff."_

[https://airmule.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/115004938167-C...](https://airmule.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/115004938167-Can-I-inspect-the-shipments-)

~~~
qyv
This is extremely disingenuous of them to have their FAQ essentially
contradict their TOS. Honestly sounds like they are deliberately trying to
deceive people.

~~~
rmc
An interesting question is "What did the traveller agree to?" The ToS legalese
which says "We have no responsibility" or the FAQ which says they check &
validate that the luggage is safe to take.

It sucks that companies can say one thing in the ToS and that overrides the
more prominant FAQ.

------
wjnc
I cringe when I read such Trumpian tweets from a founder. The journalist
reached out a few times and the response was unclear. So he writes his piece
with a pretty clear warning to future customers. Get your PR and compliance
straight if you want to avoid such pieces, don't complain afterwards while
calling names.

Caveat emptor. Just those responses are a red flag, if the subject is legal
risk surrounding smuggling to PRC. They don't want you to know.

~~~
curiousgal
>The journalist

So journalists conduct their interviews in 140-character messages nowadays? I
can't help but agree with the co-founder that hit-pieces should be based on
actual interviews, not a Twitter conversation, ff we're going to consider this
as journalism of course. If it's just amateurish blogging then I guess that
would pass.

~~~
chii
how hard is it for the founder to answer a yes or no question over twitter?
Dodging it by saying they are like other OBC is basically an admission that
they aren't legally protecting their carriers. If they had made known that
they don't claim legal liability _at all_, then i would be fine with their
service.

~~~
curiousgal
Even if he answered that question directly, I still think it wouldn't be
enough as material to base a story on. How hard wouldn't it have been for "the
journalist" to reach out for the co-founder for an interview?

~~~
DonHopkins
The real story is that the founder refused to give a straight answer to a
simple, explicit "yes or no" question when directly and repeatedly asked.
Where there's smoke there's fire! His non-answer shows he knows there's a
problem, and he's actively trying to deflect attention away from it.

~~~
sokoloff
Have you stopped beating your significant other? I just need a simple,
explicit "yes or no".

Not every question that can conceivably return a bool answer should be
answered that way in PR.

~~~
chii
> Have you stopped beating your significant other?

that's an unfair comparison, because this is a loaded question (implying you
were beating your SO). The question being asked in the blogpost is asking for
clarification, with no assumption behind it.

~~~
sokoloff
There is an assumption behind the blogpost's question, IMO: that only by being
setup exactly as Fedex and UPS can the couriers be adequately protected.

Maybe that is the actually the case (I'm not an expert in the field), but the
underlying assumption of that being a hard requirement is present. Now, if
Airmule thinks that they don't need to do exactly that but have another means
by which the couriers could be protected, they can't reasonably answer "yes"
(because they aren't organized that way) nor "no" (because that's a misleading
answer from their point of view).

~~~
idiot900
Easy response he could have made, but didn't:

"Not a common carrier - this page on our website describes exactly what
protections are provided: <link>"

------
jimjimjim
If you can't answer a yes no question without wishy-washy flim-flam pr
doublespeak then you don't get to complain that an article doesn't have facts.

and while i'm ranting. what is with founders presenting them selves as "bro's
at the bar"? If the founders had bios that looked like they were from upper
management at ibm i might be more likely to use their service.

~~~
mseebach
It is rejecting the premise of the question. Airmule isn't a common carrier,
so engaging with a line of questioning that presumes they are a common carrier
is a lose/lose situation - the sort of questioning sometimes caricatured as
"when did you stop beating your wife".

Rightfully so, too. The blogger clearly chose his very unfriendly angle. Of
the few actual quotes from the company are statements such as on-board
couriers being an established industry, both FedEx and UPS being in that
industry and all shipments complying with customs. If the blogger was
genuinely interested in informing his readers, diving into those statements
would be interesting, but he seems to reject them out of hand, preferring
instead to pursue a "gotcha" question about common carrier status.

~~~
rini17
No matter how supposedly hostile the question was, if there really is any
genuine law protection of "couriers" \- then company rep could just point out
the relevant FAQ item.

They are using as "couriers" mostly completely uninformed laypersons, which
can't be expected to know what ocs is, ffs!

------
kaishiro
I find responses like those given from the co-founder here infuriating for
some reason - far more so than I realistically should. I've always valued
transparency when it comes to business, so when I see people dancing around
straight answers and then lashing out when people take issue with said
responses it just seems so remarkably childish.

~~~
exergy
I sympathise entirely. Perhaps unwarranted, but this causes /r/punchablefaces
levels of infuriation in me. The author of the blog post wrote a very level
headed opinion piece, was perfectly polite even on twitter, and certainly
didn't call anyone "lame". By contrast, the founder comes off as an overgrown
child looking to get rich quick.

~~~
netsharc
The founder should team up with Ja Rule and make a music festival on a remote
island...

------
zbjornson
I don't know anything about airmule's operation or China's customs/security,
but the on-board courier industry is a legitimate one that has regulations and
procedures that it's not clear the author of this article is aware of.

> "We have found contraband in [courier] shipments," says U.S. Customs
> official Bob Fischler, "but percentage-wise it is infinitisemal. And in any
> seizure we made, it was obvious that the on-board courier had nothing to do
> with it." In fact, at New York' JFK and at London's Heathrow airport,
> because of the sheer volume of courier shipments, all courier pouches go to
> a central location for clearance. The courier is typically dismissed before
> customs physically inspects the shipments.

\- From Air Courier Bargains by Kelly Monaghan.

~~~
icelancer
Then the founder of the company should have provided said links and
documentation in response to tweets and communication.

~~~
rvnx
He did, he did...

"Besides, Airmule talked to some professionals — people who are in jail for
actually being drug mules or other drug-trafficking crimes. And they all said
they’d never use a system like Airmule, Yang (CEO) says. "

See. It's perfectly safe (｢･ω･)｢

------
inertial
Quite a few companies operate in this space. This business idea & its risks
have been discussed on HN more than once. I'm surprised that some of these are
still around. A likely pivot for these could be to carry specific goods where
there are no "dangerous" side effects e.g. importing smartphones, laptops etc.
Although they still are not exactly legal.

\- [https://grabr.io/en/](https://grabr.io/en/)

\- [http://www.entrusters.com/](http://www.entrusters.com/)

\- [https://backpackbang.com/home](https://backpackbang.com/home)

\- [https://www.piggybee.com/en/](https://www.piggybee.com/en/)

\- [https://worldcraze.com/](https://worldcraze.com/)

\- [http://www.canubring.com/](http://www.canubring.com/)

\- [https://www.manyship.com/](https://www.manyship.com/)

~~~
jeffdavis
How do you know it's really a Macbook, and not a Macbook box that has been
emptied and refilled with heroin and re-shrink-wrapped?

~~~
inertial
Because you (the traveller) would order it from apple.com and get paid for the
cost + courier fee.

~~~
jeffdavis
That makes sense for security if the traveller buys it. But does that then run
into customs problems because you are bringing goods for sale rather than just
carrying them for someone else?

~~~
inertial
> does that then run into customs problems

Quite likely. The traveler is evading duty and subverting the rules.

------
jstoja
Founder of a startup, having a major article killing your company and "don't
have time on a Saturday with my family to engage".

I understand that family is important, but isn't a situation like this so
important that you - at least - replace some time next week by 2hours now to
answer to this article?!

Edit: made me think about this xkcd
[https://xkcd.com/386/](https://xkcd.com/386/)

~~~
yborg
It's always been fashionable for VCs to give large amounts of other people's
money to these 'bropreneurs' because they think that some of the hip may rub
off on them, or perhaps that a cool image is a sufficient business plan. The
one startup every 6-7 years where someone parlays being a massive tool into a
huge valuation (Uber the most recent poster child) is enough to keep this
model going in perpetuity.

------
marcosscriven
I can just see it at the airport. "Did you pack your bags yourself?". I guess
at 40 I'm not the target audience for this, but I'd be worried a younger
person trying to save money might end up paying a high price. The name
'airmule' doesn't do it any favours either.

------
blisterpeanuts
When I was studying in Taiwan in the early 80s, the island's high tariffs
motivated travelers to carry suitcases full of stuff--Walkmans, cameras,
Italian shoes, etc. Contact a guy in Hong Kong, he gives you a bag, a guy in
Taipei picks it up and gives you NT5000, enough to pay for your ticket.

I never got up the courage to try it myself, but friends did. My girlfriend
did it once.

Looking back, I realize how exceedingly stupid this was. Had there been heroin
inside that camera, you were going to prison for the rest of your life. They
didn't (and still don't) screw around.

I heard all sorts of stories. An Australian backpacker was caught at Korean
customs with 50 Rolex watches stuffed in his shirt. He was sent up for ten
years. Numerous young Americans and Europeans busted for drug smuggling were
rotting in prison in Taiwan, Korea, and Japan. At the time, with these
countries technically allied with us against Red China, execution was not a
politically feasible alternative.

This Mule thing is just another respin of an old practice. Best to avoid.

~~~
e12e
I've always thought the best way to get a bomb on a plane, was to bribe
someone in the crew to smuggle drugs for you (and then give them a bomb that
looked like a package of drugs).

This takes things to a whole new level - you could get people to smuggle
anything for next to nothing, if you packed in something else. Or, get them to
blow up a plane they're on.

------
Sapph
There's another company that lets travelers subsidize their flight ticket /
earn money for delivering US products to their destination:

[https://grabr.io/travel](https://grabr.io/travel)

Key difference is:

You buy the products locals ordered (locals pay for item + delivery fee
upfront into escrow) so there's no risk of a third party hiding drugs or
illegal materials.

~~~
uiri
One risk is if the item is perfectly legal and ordinary in the US but is
illegal to import into the foreign country. The courier could wind up paying
heavy fines or much worse.

Kinder eggs are an example of an item that is perfectly fine in, say, Canada,
but carries a heavy fine for import into the US.

------
Animats
It's significant that the business is about shipments from the US to China.
That seems to be hard. Getting stuff shipped from China to the US seems to be
ridiculously easy and fast. You can order stuff off Alibaba and get fast
delivery via China Packet, which is a postal service with really good rates
for China to the US. Delivery in the US is via the USPS. The other direction
is much more expensive and slower.

The US needs to renegotiate postal rates with China. China is still getting
the "developing country" discount from the USPS.

~~~
kobeya
> China is still getting the "developing country" discount from the USPS.

I thought imports from China was cheap because it was subsidized by the PRC?

~~~
mft_
I remember reading that USPS loses money on every cheap Chinese package - it's
a legacy agreement IIRC.

~~~
Symbiote
It's the international agreement under the Universal Postal Convention.

There's a good summary here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9794971](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9794971)

~~~
mft_
Thanks :)

Think it was this that I saw (on HN, and as posted above):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14651884](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14651884)

------
nebabyte
> Plus, you really have to love the founders of this company. I mean, as a
> startup founder myself, I’m rooting for them. One is a hardcore gamer, the
> other is a former backup dancer for Gucci Mane, and the third loves beer
> more than you do. I’m not making this up–this is what they say about
> themselves on their Web page

This guy clearly doesn't get it. Your startup page is where you post a phip
relatable quirky attribute, whereas your actual qualifications go in single-
phrase sentences on your twitter bio and after your name on quora answers

/s, hopefully obviously

------
chx
It was not so long ago that the CBP stopped a business courier off a flight
from Guatemala who happened to carry nine pounds of heroin. Because he was a
courier, he was not criminally charged, nonetheless he was barred from entry
and banned for at least five years. And that's the USA, not China.

[http://www.loudountimes.com/news/article/cbp_officers_seize_...](http://www.loudountimes.com/news/article/cbp_officers_seize_9_pounds_of_heroin_at_dulles_airport898)

------
jfoutz
This makes me super curious about the pre flight baggage controls. How do they
handle someone who picks up the extra bag, but winds up not taking the flight?

With baby formula, i'd just return the bag and apologize, eating the $99.
Heroin on the other hand, i could probably move at a steep discount. $1k or
so, not worth the risk. $10 or $20k? hmm. The bag needs to be worth at least
$1000 in the target country, just to break even.

it _seems_ like pretending to be a stoner, and setting up enough to buy a
plane ticket could get you a lot of money for $99. Fake id and a prepaid
credit card aren't that hard to come by. It's not like the ID needs to pass
TSA inspection, as you're not taking the flight.

Seems like a very risky business. If your customers are willing to be pasties,
it'll be ok. but just a couple of sharks completely change the risk profile.
Doing stuff that precludes government enforcement of contracts is just crazy
crazy risky.

~~~
celticninja
Just FYI:

Pasties:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty)

Patsies: [https://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/patsy](https://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/patsy)

~~~
jfoutz
Ha! Typed it on my phone. I indeed meant the second, 'patsy'. Thanks for the
correction.

------
skrause
Before clicking on the article I thought that the dangerous catch was that you
have to sit in seat 31B and wondered why. The article's title and site name
should really be differentiated better in HN's title.

------
BayesStreet
On their website they state "Airmule then manually inspects and verifies each
item prior to packaging for a traveler." but I doubt this company that started
last year has more experience finding contraband than law enforcement doing it
their whole lives who have seen everything. Pretty asymmetric risk profile,
save a couple hundred bucks for potentially your life.

~~~
FRex
Just because an item is totally legal to have in China and legal to carry into
China on your person doesn't mean you can bring it in for profit in such a
scheme.

There are borders where you can carry through alcohol, petrol and tobacco for
personal use but people who make a living off of it are breaking the law.

Of course in the first world all you get is a fine and get your contraband
confiscated which just sets you back a month or two, but risking that in
China..?

------
smsm42
Looks quite shady, especially given we're talking about China. Anything being
wrong with the package - not even drugs - that'd be insanely bad - but I'm
sure there are many other things which require special papers to get into
China, or are prohibited, and if something is wrong, it's the courier's ass on
the line. I don't see how it could be worth the risk of being imprisoned in
China. I mean it's one thing to be in a "gray area" as an American in the US,
with all legal protections and ACLU and so on, and another thing doing the
same in China...

And I wonder what TSA thinks about people transporting things that they have
little idea about in their luggage?

~~~
dawnerd
Pretty sure tsa requires you to know what's in your possession too. Can't
really hide behind "it's not mine, I didn't know X was in there!"

------
csomar
The founder is lame and as /u/wjnc mentioned he has a trump-like behavior. The
question is very simple: If there is drugs in the shipment, does the traveller
get a _FREE_ pass?

The article is lengthy and kind of make this question vague. In my
understanding it is a single question: Who bares the responsibility?

Well, it is you the poor traveller. There is no way in hell you can accept
such a deal even if you are flying for Free. In fact, if you are, ask yourself
the question: Do free meals really exist?

------
reuven
I'm glad that the author of this travel blog is warning people against using
Airmule. Someone is going to get in a heckuva lot of trouble.

First: I can only imagine, when checking my bags, getting the question, "Did
anyone give you anything to bring on the flight?" and answering, "Yes, my
entire 2nd bag belongs to someone else who is paying for half of my ticket."

That alone would be enough to give you extra-special scrutiny when checking
in.

But let's assume that you get through security, go on your flight, and arrive.
I've traveled to China many times, and have thus put my bag through the
customs/airport scanner many times. If they find anything illegal -- and in
China, that can mean all sorts of stuff -- you are in Big Trouble. I haven't
ever seen anyone pulled aside when going through customs in China, but I don't
envy them.

And sure, Airmule can say that they've inspected things, and that this is safe
and fun, etc. Just try telling the Chinese customs officials that the drugs
don't belong to you, but rather to a startup in Silicon Valley. I'm sure
they'll be very attentive.

Airmule's site attempts to calm potential couriers' nerves by saying, "Read
this Wikitravel article." (Reference:
[http://wikitravel.org/en/Air_courier](http://wikitravel.org/en/Air_courier))
However, the article says, very clearly:

> You need to be very careful about the legitimacy of the jobs you take. The
> last thing you want is to be caught > transporting contraband (or worse) on
> a plane. A good way to avoid this is to use an agent (usually a >
> representative of the service you are working for), who will take you
> through customs and clear the contents. > Always check the reputation of the
> courier company before booking. None which are reliable and legitimate >
> would ever try to ship anything illegal.

Airmule doesn't promise to have an agent on the arrival side. They do promise
that they'll "walk you through" things, but that's very different from
physically being there in China and claiming the luggage and any
responsibility for it.

The idea is a good one in theory, but as executed, it's half baked -- and
might lead to executions of a more literal sort, if people aren't careful.

------
zupa-hu
So, they claim they can have the cake and eat it too - as in, ship the bag as
non-personal carrier stuff to avoid prison, and ship it as personal non-
carrier stuff to pass customs. Bold.

------
bogomipz
From their FAQ:

"We don't just ship any item that comes through our front door. Airmule only
partners with TSA certified shipping companies.

"Under their Certified Cargo Screening Program, the TSA certifies cargo
screening facilities throughout the United States to screen cargo prior to
providing it to airlines for shipment on passenger flights." [1]

The TSA however does not search for drugs however from the TSA's site:

"TSA security officers do not search for marijuana or other drugs."[2]

[1] [https://airmule.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/115005116068--...](https://airmule.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/115005116068--How-do-I-know-this-is-safe)

[2]
[https://apps.tsa.dhs.gov/mytsa/cib_results.aspx?search=marij...](https://apps.tsa.dhs.gov/mytsa/cib_results.aspx?search=marijuana)

------
grecy
I frequently fly international with zero checked bags and about 5lbs of carry
on.

I would love to be able to do so for $99 if someone wants to on-sell my
checked allowance.

After reading the article I see the pitfalls I had never thought of, and would
obviously want some extremely, extremely clear legalities to make it very
clear the bags are not mine, and I'm not bringing them into any country.

No, I did not pack them and, no, I am not bringing them into your country.

------
micah94
Wait...let me get this straight: You carry a package on a plane to China given
to you by someone you don't even know? This is a joke, right?

------
bisRepetita
Real life example of a Guatemalan OBC unknowingly bringing heroin into the US:
he was deemed not responsible quickly, and got expelled right away with no
right to come back for 5 years.

[http://www.loudountimes.com/news/article/cbp_officers_seize_...](http://www.loudountimes.com/news/article/cbp_officers_seize_9_pounds_of_heroin_at_dulles_airport898)

~~~
ridgewell
On that note, China is not remotely as understanding as the United States when
it comes to these things.

------
fencepost
I haven't heard about air couriers for years, but I don't travel much. That
said, I was under the impression that for basically all of them the package
being couriered was _never_ in the possession of the traveler but was instead
packaged as freight and was delivered to the airline as such and handled as
such at the receiving end. If the "courier" in question wanted to drop it off
or pick it up themselves they'd still have to go to the appropriate air
freight terminal.

If these folks are providing packages to travelers to be checked directly by
the traveler then they're idiots and so is anyone who takes them up on the
offer. If not for the defensive tweets, etc. I'd feel that (as someone else
noted) this must be a satire of the 'gig' economy.

------
skinnymuch
Soylent being tongue in cheek with their name is one thing. But Airmule? Why
would they want to associate themselves with the most common border crossing
association with mules - drug mules? Besides the whole arrangement seeming
bad, the name choice is horrible.

------
asdfologist
Risk of a death penalty for accidentally smuggling heroin? They couldn't pay
me to take this flight.

------
icbm504
I like the idea but in the world we live in (post 9/11), it is a major
security violation.

------
overcast
I don't carry checked bags for the specific reason that I don't want to deal
with checked bags. I guess this is for people who want to be as cheap as
possible, while simultaneously being as inconvenienced as possible.

------
Karliss
If airplane companies take into account that certain percentage of passengers
will not arrive and overbook flights wouldn't they also take into account that
most passengers will have less than maximum allowed baggage?

------
chrischen
Why not just specifically operate in the market of importing baby formula in
China.

You can easily subsidize a flight ticket with a checked luggage full of baby
formula and for extra security the mule can go buy the formula him or herself.

------
srathi
From their FAQ

Airmule then manually inspects and verifies each item prior to packaging for a
traveler. We also guarantee that 100% of the items shipped through our service
are safe for travel on commercial aviation.

This is classic lawyer speech (notice the words "safe for travel on commercial
aviation"). This just means that there are no harmful things to a plane, but
they don't say anything about 'safe for customs'.

------
jliptzin
If someone came to me with this business idea I'd chuckle and say haha, good
one. Of course assuming that it is some joke. It boggles my mind that
apparently 3 (presumably reasonable?) people have decided to seriously pursue
this idea. It's so bad on so many different levels it may actually be the
worst business idea I have ever heard.

~~~
ddebernardy
Quite a few consumers just go for whatever's cheapest without reading through
the laundry lists of caveats or realizing the risks they're taking.

(I for one wouldn't be surprised if they end up successful until a client of
theirs actually ends up in trouble serious enough that TV news outlets raise
public awareness.)

------
thedogeye
This is exactly how DHL started btw: [https://techcrunch.com/2016/02/13/how-
dhl-pioneered-the-shar...](https://techcrunch.com/2016/02/13/how-dhl-
pioneered-the-sharing-economy/)

------
m3kw9
So if they missed a small pack of drugs that some slipped in there, some ones
life is ruined

------
rpmcmurphy
Some startups just need to die in a fire. This is one of them. (Theranos is
another one).

------
illuminati1911
While I agree with most of the article, I don't understand the part where the
author is complaining about the bios of the founders/managers.

It's a startup, not old slow mega-corporation where making a joke will get you
fired.

~~~
briandear
Would you trust your life to a guy that has a bio that mentioned how much beer
he could drink? This isn’t playtime – you are literally trusting some bro to
know the nuances of Chinese customs and manage a team that is supposed to
“inspect” courier packages before you trust your life with them.

Would you trust a surgeon with a bio that describes how thouroghly he can
consume beer?

International air courier work isn’t the place to be trusting zany, hip dudes.
It’s not the place for making jokes, that’s for sure.

------
bberrry
Is 31B a reference I'm missing? It didn't come up in the article body.

~~~
manarth

      "You’ll find me sitting in the middle seat, all the way in the back,
      next to the toilets, but smiling the whole way because that seat was
      ridiciculously cheap or even free!"
    

It's the premise for the travel blog. The author describes it as "the worst
possible seat in economy class", but at least it's cheap!

[http://www.seat31b.com/why-another-travel-blog/](http://www.seat31b.com/why-
another-travel-blog/)

------
baybal2
China United Airlines once did the route for CNY488 with carry on only

------
seannyang
Cheers everyone, this is Sean Yang, CEO and cofounder of Airmule, the air
courier startup with an admittedly strange name that you might have read about
earlier today.

Is Airmule legal?

On Board Couriers (OBC) have existed over decades. Their purpose is to service
cargo that needs to be delivered in a timely manner. It’s quite an expensive
service, often servicing auto parts, airplane parts, important documents,
passports, NASA parts, etc. Costs can vary from a few hundred to thousands of
dollars. To become an OBC is simple, just call any OBC company and register on
their list. In our case, we simply request you to list your trip. The OBC
companies size doesn’t have to be the same as Fedex, UPS or any airline cargo
department. As long as they follow the TSA’s IAC regulation, only ship items
from a “Known Shipper,” and have the cargo secured in a locked area
inaccessible by outsiders. At Airmule, we have a surveillance camera over
cargo 24/7\. (49 CFR 1544.228, 1546.213, 1548.15, 1548.16, and 1548.7.)

So yes, OBC’s are totally legal, as well as all OBC companies. I see many ask
the answer to “Did you pack everything yourself” question. The answer is to be
honest with Airline company “No, I didn’t. I’m an OBC and I have the manifest,
and I know what’s inside my luggage”.

Every single traveler will receive a manifest prior to receiving Airmule
shipments Airmule is 100% responsible for the items on the list.There are
items we don’t accept if they don’t comply with our policy or the destination
country customs policy:

For example:

1\. Powdery items. 2\. Pills, medicine, prescriptions 3\. Unclear liquids
(wine, etc.) 4\. Live plants 5\. Animal products (elephant teeth, fur items,
etc.) 6\. Counterfeit items

If the Shipment is for commercial purposes, we will declare through the proper
channel. We contract with a professional customs brokerage company for every
single country we service. In that case, couriers simple leave the item at
customs, a receipt will be issued by Customs, and Airmule will handle it
onsite, couriers will be relieved from duty at that point. Airmule is not
“Smuggling”. We do pay duty on behalf of shippers. Our shipping policy is very
restrictive with Senders responsible for all duty fees.

For those who “likes” the name, we can’t do anything about it. Regardless of
what we are called; it sounds like you don’t want to work with us. We just
hope one day, when you need something urgently, that Airmule is a better and
more affordable option to help with delivery, and saves your day.

Airmule has been running for almost 2 years, we’ve helped thousands of
travelers to see the world they never were able to see before. The deal we
post is 100% authentic, but a very limited offer. In appreciation of your time
to read this, we’d like to give a bonus for $100 if you use coupon
“ISupportAirmule” when list your trip. If you still have concerns, please do
not hesitate to contact me directly at sean@airmule.com

------
gweinberg
What are the odds the whole thing is an elaborate joke?

------
skrebbel
Could this be performance art?

------
exabrial
This is 100% illegal no doubt

------
smegel
"We'll pay you to take this bag on the airplane for us.".

Yeah...nah.

------
erikrothoff
Besides the quite unnecessary personal attack on the founders ("One is a
hardcore gamer, the other is a former backup dancer for Gucci Mane, and the
third loves beer more than you do. I’m not making this up–this is what they
say about themselves on their Web page") I feel the writer did nothing to back
up his claim. The "clear as mud" answer from the founder "same as all OBCs"
was a really weird thing to leave up to interpretation of the reader. Nowhere
did the writer enlighten me about the actual rights of an On Board Courier. I
found this article really lacking in substance, sorry.

~~~
smsm42
I feel that answering any questions which could very well have legal
consequences on Twitter is not a very smart idea. Legal questions are rarely
well-answered in 140 chars, even if you're allowed to use emojis.

~~~
briandear
“Are couriers covered by Common Cartier rules?”

There isn’t much need for anything beyond 3 characters:

“Yes” or “No”

If you asked FedEx that question, there isn’t a legal department response
needed. It’s a simple “Yes.”

Also, that question – the public has a right to a clear answer.

“Do your cars have seatbelts?”

“Does your food contain salt?”

These are examples of questions that don’t have gray areas worthy of
“legalese.”

If legalese is required that means the expected answer isn’t the same as the
actual answer.

~~~
erikrothoff
It's assuming there first of all is a simple yes/no answer to the question. An
extreme example: Is it legal to shoot a person? Yes or no? Give me a yes or no
answer! The answer is "sometimes, maybe, no and yes". I think it's weird that
all of a sudden everyone knows enough about Common Carrier rules or OBC's to
know what the implications of either a "yes" or a "no" in that case would be.

I personally have no idea. And after reading the article I still don't. Does
the writer know? I couldn't see anything passed the sarcasm that would
convince me either way.

I would expect more substance in an article on the front page of Hacker news.

~~~
gus_massa
If the answer "Are couriers covered by Common Cartier rules?" were "yes" it
may have some caveats like: "Yes, but the protection cover only he items send
by AirMule, not the personal items in the other bag. Also adding any item to
the AirMule bag voids all the protection." [Just in case this is not clear,
this is a fake quote.] [Also, check it with your lawyer.] I guess you can
reduce it to 140 characters and get a proper lawyer to write it.

If the answer "Are couriers covered by Common Cartier rules?" were "no", the
extension is: "No, totally no, 0%, zero, nada, zip!" [fake quote]

Their answers to "Are couriers covered by Common Cartier rules?" is something
like: "They will get a seat in the plane and can use the bathroom." [Also,
fake quote.] They are not replaying the question, only stating something
unrelated.

~~~
tprophet
There is no technical issue here preventing a clear answer due to 140
character limits.

These guys had my email address and could have sent a detailed response.
Instead, they sent a short (but clear) one. If they actually wanted a phone
interview, they could have asked for one and provided a number to call. And
it's possible to send more than one tweet if they wanted to respond that way.

They did link to a FAQ which isn't clear, and their Terms of Service is posted
on the page as others have noted. This is what raised my eyebrows to begin
with and why I started asking questions.

A friend who is a tech reporter said "When they're responding like this, you
know you got 'em." Given that Rory has had all morning to dispute any of the
facts in my blog post, and has not done so despite being very active on
Twitter, it seems clear that my reporter friend is right.

