
Save the Males - echair
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_extracts/article4448371.ece
======
msie
I see men around me being as macho as ever and the popularity of mixed-martial
arts, wrestling, NASCAR and the use of the word "gay" to deride stuff. My
anecdotes cancel her anecdotes!

------
iuguy
I'm glad someone out there is making a point about the emasculation of men at
the expense of wimmin's lib, even if it's not in the most articulately
expressed manner.

~~~
dgabriel
Do you really think that "wimmin's lib" emasculates men? In what way are your
options in life more limited as a result of gender equality? How is it that
equal opportunity makes you less of a man?

~~~
elai
wimmin's lib emasculates men if they choose to listen and accept it.

------
jimbokun
As the father of two boys, this was my favorite part:

"But seven-year-old boys are not interested in making lanterns from coffee
tins. They want to shoot bows and arrows, preferably at one another, chop wood
with stone-hewn axes and sink canoes, preferably while in them."

All true.

~~~
menloparkbum
This is generally true. However, much to the consternation of my macho dad, I
was the weird kid who was more interested in making lanterns from coffee tins
than shooting at canoes or chopping wood with rocks.

If the author is really concerned about society going down the tubes it might
be worthwhile to not include making things in her stereotype of behavior that
isn't "manly." The guys who spent their youth throwing stuff at each other are
the ones having the most problems when they grow up. Last I checked, makers do
pretty well in adulthood.

~~~
sfg
I enjoyed making my bow and arrows and I am sure that would be included fully
in her definition of manly. She is moaning about activities and toys that are
unmanly, not the process of making stuff.

------
scott_s
Cherry-picked anecdotes and data to support _a priori_ conclusions.

~~~
pg
That could equally well describe any essay. An essay is not a report on a
controlled experiment. You have to work to decide which parts you agree with.

~~~
scott_s
It could describe most bad essays, yes. Good essays either stay out of
falsifiability territory, or they invite formal exploration of the subject.

In this essay, she makes claims that are supported only with anecdotes, when
data could be used. This is important since I can easily think of counter-
anecdotes that nullify her arguments. The biggest example is her claim that
males are predominantly presented as emasculated in popular culture. I'm sure
one can consume a subset of all popular culture where that is true, and I'm
also sure one can do the opposite. But if someone were to actually come up
with a metric and _test_ this idea, then that would be worthwhile.

~~~
pg
_Good essays either stay out of falsifiability territory, or they invite
formal exploration of the subject._

It would be a mistake to write an essay using anecdotal evidence to argue
about a precisely defined question in math or the hard sciences. But outside
math and the hard sciences, falsifiability gets fuzzy. A statistical (surely
you don't really mean formal?) analysis of this topic would be in the domain
of "social science," and though such studies usually measure something
precisely, it's never clear what. Often a thoughtful essay will come closer to
the truth, despite containing no tables of numbers.

~~~
scott_s
I'd prefer an attempt at a statistical analysis (yes, that's what I was
getting at) which is upfront about assumptions and methodologies. Essays are
worthwhile, but are only honest if the author is upfront about their
assumptions. This author presents her assumptions as fact. That's when I tune
out.

In particular, this essay is predicated on the assumption that our culture is
more emasculated than in the past - if this is not the case, then the entire
thing falls apart. I think there are reasonable ways to test this assumption,
but the author, as a reporter, is probably not equipped to do so.

------
dejb
I think this article is somewhat self-selecting. For any guy who agrees with
it - then maybe it is true. For guys who think it's a load of crap - then it
probably is.

------
omouse
What's interesting about these articles is how out of touch with reality the
journalists are.

------
zandorg
I could be wrong, but as a Brit (ish) it seems America is a lot less forgiving
of men on the whole. In the UK, TV adverts have Homer Simpson-like figures who
are funny, but in a forgiving way.

I see feminism's flaw as being that women have wombs and can reproduce, but
men can't. Fix that by letting single men adopt.

The other flaw is that feminism is an offshoot of Marxism.

~~~
dgabriel
Single men can adopt. One of my son's best friends is the adopted son of a
single man.

~~~
zandorg
Thanks for correcting me. I'd better do some more reading before jumping to
conclusions outside my education.

------
time_management
I wish I had read that article in my apartment rather than at a cafe. I
could've cleaned the floor with all the sweeping generalizations in it.

The article raises some good points, especially on the reproductive inequity,
but most of what is in it is just boring overgeneralization. It's too long for
the few points it makes.

[Edit: Made this comment as I was RTFA. The second half is better.]

------
blurry
To save everyone time reading complete garbage, allow me to provide one
representative quote from the article:

 _The shame attached to unwed motherhood did serve a useful purpose once upon
a time._

/sigh/

~~~
blurry
So I take it everyone here supports the view that single mothers are shameful.
Wow.

~~~
run4yourlives
No, you can take from your downmodding that this isn't reddit, and you'll need
to make stronger arguments than that to be taken seriously.

~~~
dgabriel
It's amusing that the arguments in the original article are not strong, and
are based on bias and anecdote. Also, the reply comments here are _extremely_
reddit-like.

~~~
run4yourlives
People have already pointed out the former. I agree.

There are also some very astute comments on this article, which is hacker news
all the way.

------
pavelludiq
It was an interesting reed, but why the hell was it on the front page of a
computer nerd site? The sun has no spots on it? Ok, thats cool, and nerdy,
thats real science, brain burning extra calories? Well interesting, of course,
we are smart people and we care what happens in our brains, there are viruses
in our genes, cool!!! But save the males? Who cares? Western civilization has
a lot of more interesting issues than this. It wasn't even THAT interesting,
just readable. I was alway annoyed by 'not HN' posts, and i know my post is
annoying too, good, it was meant to be annoying, it's important, you can't
ignore my bitter rant!

~~~
river_styx
Based on your word choices and spelling mistakes, I'm gonna place your age in
the neighborhood of 16-17. Am I right? Maybe you'll find this kind of topic
more interesting when you're a bit older...

~~~
blurry
Where does _I'm gonna_ place you?

