
Italia Startup Visa - qqwet
http://italiastartupvisa.mise.gov.it/
======
gruturo
One piece of advice from an Italian, who was born and grew up there: It's a
suicide, absolutely do NOT do this. We have the best weather, culture, food,
wine, beaches, etc, you name it. But opening a business in that dysfunctional
country? RUN and don't look back. Between fiscal pressure, crazy laws and
compliances, the effective presumption of guilt, completely broken or
unavailable infrastructure in the hand of monopolists, it's outright suicide.
Companies will favor "friends" and deny you a chance even if you're
competitive. Oh and we haven't touched the criminal issues at all. I was lucky
not have the pleasure of such acquaintances but don't worry, if you become
large enough or successful enough, they will come to you.

~~~
mystixx
I'm from Italy as well. As everyone else, I am dissatisfied with how Italy is
run, but it's _disgusting_ to see how many Italians living abroad claim the
right to hurl mud at Italy. I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to
run away abroad.

As a proof, here we ended up talking of mafia and corruption, following common
stereotypes and therefore giving a distorted idea of Italy. I think most of
the people that are saying "run away" are implicitly trying to justify
themselves for their decision to go away from their country and family.

Sadly, more than in culture, food and wine, Italians are the first for the
most destructive self-criticism in the world. I have rarely heard a non-
Italian speaking so low of his own country, as only Italians can do.

~~~
edelweiss22
I second this. "I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away
abroad". It hurts me hearing those expats talking shit about our country. I
can't imagine how they change perception of Italy to everyone they get in
touch with.

To those of you, stop bashing and start being the first change you want to
see.

~~~
camillomiller
I finally moved to Germany. I tried, but could not bear it anymore. I miss my
family and friends oh so badly, but staying? It would have been even worse.

Those who stay are the ones with the real courage, people say. No, I'm really
sorry, but those who stay are those who have their shoulders covered (by
family, maybe) and may have some long-standing interests that give them enough
stability to try what they want.

But, they won't change anything. The system is rigged, you cannot take the
power away from those who hold it and who are in charge of the big, important
decisions. That is, unless you are ok to play their conservative and self-
preserving game, actually becoming part of the skewed systems. Look at what
the Movimento 5 Stelle has already become.

Recently we even tried with oligarchy - officially called the government of
the professors, it was a government made of the Italian "best minds" and it
was appointed directly by the President of the Republic. It may have saved us,
but it didn't really kickstarted the economy back. We're now in a triple-dip
recession, ask any economist and he would gladly lecture you about our very
interesting case.

We're a country where a lot of people saved and still manage to save, and that
has naturally turned us into a very conservative country, where every little
change is seen as a menace for the status quo.

Long story short, if you want to do something with your life and you have no
settled financial interested (or you can manage them from abroad) you flee and
put your studies and experience to good use. Otherwise you stay and either get
involved in the mess or try to stay out of it and see yourself beaten to the
punch by incompetents and people that are just ok with marching aligned with
the old and distorted system.

Anyway, I'm not one of those self-deprecating Italian whiners. I don't hate my
country. I just think the problem lies with the biggest part of our fellow
Italians. It's a problem so hard to entangle and define that giving up is
really the only viable solution.

~~~
nicolettad
Thank you for your comment, you really express my thoughts. I'm sicking of
hearing people say that, just because they're not willing to expat or because
they have their shoulder covered. I wanted to live with my boyfriend, have my
own house, buy me a new computer, etc... I couldn't do it in Italy. I could
just work and live at home with my parents so I didn't had to pay rent and
expenses. A lot of my friends does that but I'm 26 and I deserve to be
independent, so I expat. Do you people think that is the simple way? I assure
you that it isn't.

~~~
happyscrappy
What does "shoulder covered" mean?

~~~
camillomiller
Yeah sorry, that's some Italian crawling through my English. It means "having
a parachute" or maybe even "having your back covered". In other words, moving
from a safe economical ground where you can easily return just in case
anything goes wrong. Practically it means having rich parents or a stable
financial situation because of your family's wealth.

~~~
happyscrappy
Thanks.

------
andreamazz
I'm italian and one of the founders of an italian startup. Saying that it's
hard to work here would be the understatement of the century. The fiscal
pressure is insane, the laws are batshit crazy, and there is no startup
culture nor respect for the IT in general. Don't get me wrong, I love my
country, but founding a startup here is just madness.

------
danmaz74
As an Italian, I have to say that Italy isn't the first place where I would
open a startup, but many comments here are really exaggerated. Corruption and
crime, in the center and north of Italy (the most economically active part),
is nowhere as prevalent as they say. Unfortunately, because of the crisis that
really hit hard here, there is a very gloomy sentiment in lots of Italians.

But as a consequence of the crisis, there is a lot of talent that can be get
pretty cheap for European standards, especially now that taxation for newly
hired workers has been greatly reduced.

~~~
register
This is the most balanced comment that I have read amongst all the others.
Italian people have this very bad attitude of blaming continuosly everything
and everybody. This energy would be better spent elsewhere. The VISA is a good
initiative. One of the many things that should be done to improve our country
, but it's a plus not a minus. Let's now try to change all the other factors
that impede further groth and innovation. You have at least an arrow at your
arch: your vote. Study the parties' program and inform yourself before voting.

------
lucaronin
Oh come on. Some comments from “italians” here are really disgusting. I’m
Italian, live in Italy and run a startup here. I know A LOT of guys who run
successful businesses here (not me, yet!), who don’t have to deal with mafia,
corruption and mandolinos.

Is it harder here than in some other countries? For sure. Are there issues
with taxes, regulations, etc? Hell yes.

BUT.

It’s not impossible to build great companies in Italy. And you will be amazed
to discover there are upsides too. Technical talent is great (because
universities are great, despite all the shit people usually throw at them),
and REALLY cheap. Also, talent retention is easier: finding good, rewarding
jobs is hard here, so if you build a great company, with a compelling vision,
people just stay with you. Quality of life MATTERS: good weather, food, having
fun, have an incredible impact on how people work.

Finally, there are opportunities. Since Italy, as a market, is far behind in
so many areas, there’s plenty of space for startups to innovate and build
businesses that have already been proven successful in other
countries/markets.

So, please, stop complaining. It’s hard everywhere. Somewhere it’s harder than
somewhere else. But that’s it.

~~~
davidw
> It’s not impossible to build great companies in Italy

No, of course it isn't. But at the margin, it's more difficult, so if you have
the chance, you should go elsewhere: I think Italy should get its own house a
bit more in order before trying to attract people from other countries.
They'll come naturally if Italy is a decent place to do business. It doesn't
have to be perfect, because it has so many other nice things, it just has to
suck less: California, for instance, is not the best US state to do business
in, in terms of bureaucracy and taxation.

------
Fede_V
Ehh, I thought I was negative about Italy, but seeing what everyone else is
saying, I'm probably the most positive person here.

The pros:

\- There are some absolutely excellent open source developers who can be hired
much more cheaply than the US.

\- Life is excellent. Italy is a really beautiful country.

\- Lots of incredibly low hanging fruits. Italy has a lot of great companies
that makes excellent products the entire world wants, but have absolutely
pathetic IT departments. This is also true in the public sector - several
regions of Italy have amazing touristic attractions with pathetic
marketing/web presence. This is probably the best reason.

The cons:

\- As a corollary to the last pro (about low hanging fruits). Public sector
contracts are given to people who are completely incompetent but well
connected, who then sub contract it out. The technocratic/political class,
especially at the local level, is almost always old, and has gotten their
positions because of connections.

\- Moreso than outright corruption (unless you live in the South), red tape
can be a massive issue.

\- This does not affect start ups, but once you grow to more than 15
employees, staff hired full time is basically impossible to fire. This is very
slowly getting changed.

I don't think it makes sense to move to Italy if you want to work on the next
chat/social media application, but if you have a great idea on how to use web
to improve tourism/market high end goods, or you have excellent SaaS software
for medium-large sized companies, you could probably do very well, and live
very well too.

Basically, this is sort of an interesting (but old) summary of an interesting
case study:
[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB121969807244970447](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB121969807244970447)
\- there were lots of resources, lots of low hanging fruits, and yet due to
political squabbling, total ignorance of technology and nepotism the project
was a huge waste. Given how low the bar is, it's very possible to do much
better.

Small edit: There is a huge generational gap between the 50+ year olds that
run the country, and the kids graduating now from University, in terms of
attitude towards technology, meritocracy, and entrepreneurship.

~~~
riffraff
> Public sector contracts are given to people who are completely incompetent
> but well connected

to be fair, I believe this to be the case about everywhere. I.e. the Oregon
healthcare site fiasco[0] seems straight out of italian newspapers.

[0] [http://www.wired.com/2014/03/oracle-
oregon/](http://www.wired.com/2014/03/oracle-oregon/)

~~~
davidw
I can comment on this, being from Oregon and living in Italy:-)

Basically, this kind of thing happens everywhere. It just happens more in some
places.

Back to this:

> \- There are some absolutely excellent open source developers who can be
> hired much more cheaply than the US.

I can confirm this. I think a valid strategy would be to open up the main
office somewhere else, and do some R&D in Italy. There are good developers who
don't cost as much as elsewhere.

~~~
massimosgrelli
Yes I confirm this. I live in Italy but the company I co-founded in San
Francisco runs thanks to Italian engineering talent. And that's good for
starting, not so sure when you raise round A - a good one. If you have money
to spend it's probably better to move everyone to California. Don't you think?
However it's true that the quality of life in Italy is a lot higher than the
Bay Area, but you need to stop fighting the system or be part of it if you
want to have a really good life. About your "this kind of thing happens
everywhere", I'm not sure you are right. At least not in the high tech hubs
around the world. And again, do you think that Portland is like Italy? I've
been there just a few times but my perception is completely different from the
business point of view. When you are a tourist though, everything is fine
pretty much everywhere.

~~~
davidw
What I'm saying is that corruption is everywhere, just in very different
quantities. Truth be told, I think Oregon is generally a bit less corrupt and
a bit more egalitarian than California is, but that's just my impression.

> If you have money to spend it's probably better to move everyone to
> California. Don't you think?

Not really - it's cheaper to hire someone in Italy, so with a given amount of
money, you have more runway, or can hire more people. Also, the US immigration
stuff sucks pretty badly and is not easy.

> And again, do you think that Portland is like Italy

I lived there a year. It's a nice place in a lot of ways, but not where I want
to be. The weather (
[http://forecast.io/#/f/45.5118,-122.6756](http://forecast.io/#/f/45.5118,-122.6756)
) is very, very tiring for someone who likes the sun. You think it's bad in
northern Italy... hah! It's a little bit bigger than I happen to care for (I
like the size of Padova a lot), but without all things a really big, important
city has. De gustibus... though, as they say. It's worth checking out in
January to see if you can handle the weather, because it's a lot cheaper than
the bay area. Oregon is a _beautiful_ place to visit in August.

Feel free to send me email if you'd like to know more about Oregon!

~~~
massimosgrelli
Don't make me wrong davidw, Italy is one of the best countries on Earth to
live with your family, but from the business point of view it's a nightmare.
It's cute, unbelievably cute, but sometimes it's not enough to live a happy
life. R&D in Italy it's one of my dreams and remote working tools are out
there to help, but in my experience it is very complicated to make it working
in the long run when the company scale. You save money, but not that much. On
the other hand you slow down a little bit the execution. It's just my own
experience.

------
SeanLuke
I have friends who did a startup in Rome which went after government grants
and contracts for software. I got to watch as they battled nepotism,
insularity, incompetence, and extraordinarily sclerotic, glacial movement on
part of the government and its affiliates and contractors, both as customers
and as providers of standard societal services. Taxation is unbelievably high
and bureaucratic for those (like my friends) who were straight shooters and
wanted to pay taxes, unlike nearly all their competition, who dodged them.

My favorite story was when they were trying to get internet service in
Trastevere. They were required to start paying the phone company (TI) as _if_
they had internet service, and then wait. For three months. Then after they
called TI wondering where the service was, they were told TI had sent someone
out to install the service but he couldn't find their office. TI didn't bother
to call them. So they were then required to go to the back of the queue and
wait for another three months, all the while paying, followed by another
excuse. This went on for the better part of a year. Meanwhile they ran the
whole company off of cellular data plans.

And they're still there, and why? Because Trastevere is one of the most
wonderful places in the world. It's worth it to them. But it's not surprising
they're in the minority: Italy has a very, very serious brain drain problem.

------
zkhalique
Russia tried to open Skolkovo, Italy tries to do this. These are nice
attempts, but the best way to attract startups is to first reduce government
corruption that would pressure businesses that do well.

------
laex
One of my Italian friends isn't really encouraged by this. And I quote:

"I think that I close already 2 business in Italy due to the economic crisis,
the fiscal pressure when I left Italy was about 65% (not it is more) and in
the first year I went there the 30% of the shop in my city have closed (now it
would much more)

Even without reading I can tell you that opening a business there now is a
suicide. "

~~~
mino
I fail to see the connection between opening a startup and the current crisis,
honestly. Or with the closure of 30% (?) of the local shops.

Also, there are a few interesting tax incentives that are finally available.
For example, a law passed last month introduced 25% and 50% tax credits
(depending on the expense category) on R&D investments, including labour costs
for "highly trained" (MSc or PhD) workers.

Sure, Italian bureaucracy is not straightforward for a foreigner and you'll
need to speak the language, but generalisations like that quoted above are
misleading exaggerations.

Italians, especially expats (I am one), tend to victimise themselves and to
reason with stereotypes. The "even without reading" part sounds like that.

~~~
danmaz74
Couldn't agree more. If your startup sells internationally, the current crisis
won't affect you.

~~~
pmontra
Maybe, but you'll still be paying more taxes than you would if you were based
in almost any other country. Too many useless state expenses here, and they
turned into too much debt and taxes. Check how many Italians with the skill
set to open a startup moved to London and Berlin in the last few years.

------
rwhitman
A good friend participated in what I think was a pilot program for this a year
ago. The Italian govn't sponsored an incubator in Trento, invited
entrepreneurs from all over the world to come participate... and then promptly
fumbled the visa and business paperwork so badly that a good number of
participants packed up and went home early.

I can't remember the details exactly but apparently the visa troubles and
business registration red tape made the whole program something of a joke

------
andretti1977
From a business point of view, STAY AWAY FROM ITALY. I'm an italian computer
engineer and work as a freelance with VAT number since 5 years and i can say
that there are no fiscal or burocratic simplifications and aids for startup.

There is a reason why a lot of italians preferred to create a ltd based in the
UK instead of a srl in italy. There is a reason why a lot of italian
entreprenuers are moving to Switzerland. There is a reason why a lot of
italians base their business in Tenerife (even if i don't accept this fiscal-
escamotage, i can't blame them too much).

As an example of the business complications here in italy, even if i own a
computer engineer consultancy VAT type, i can't send invoices to Google to get
money from GoogleAds: i need to add another VAT specification (paying money)
and register my self to the chamber of commerce (again paying) and having a
more complicated fiscal management (for my business consultant's joy!) just
because at that point, i'm in the advertising business (really? small
GoogleAds income is an advertising business?!).

In italy you can go with the same invoices (incomes and expenses) to two
different business consultant and they will produce two different tax
declarations! And in the case of a fiscal check, you will find that maybe none
of them was right! This is ridiculous, but this is the reality of Italy
because fiscal law and bureaucracy are a real mess!

Talking about startup: if you read well you will find that there are a lot of
obstacles in the opening of a startup in italy: an an example you must set at
least 15% of the bigger between income or expenses for R&D, you must have at
least a third of the workforce as Ph. D. and you must own a patent...and they
call it "innovative startup in italy[1]"...do you find it easy and
comfortable? Please, if you understand italian language, go and see Report
Startup Stories [2]

Last, it is true that Italy is a beautiful country and that if you own a small
business located in the north, maybe you won't have too much problems with
criminality, but remember that it is true that mafia has people and hands on
the most important political chairs and in the richest businesses. Just think
about the recent scandal regarding Rome or the mafia and 'ndrangheta
penetration in milan.

[1] [http://startup.registroimprese.it/](http://startup.registroimprese.it/)
[2]
[http://www.report.rai.it/dl/Report/puntata/ContentItem-a31ab...](http://www.report.rai.it/dl/Report/puntata/ContentItem-a31abb5d-9a75-4947-8628-445afaa5ea0d.html)

~~~
agos
regarding the requirements, you read wrong: you need Ph.D.s OR patents OR to
spend at least 15% in R&D. And the third option is really really easy to
achieve.

~~~
pibi
Also, patents OR a deposit of a relevant source code to the author registry
(SIAE). this is really easy to achieve at almost no cost at all.

------
smarques
I am italian, running a start up in italy. Its a beautiful country,
fascinating, great art, food, weather. IMHO definitely and unfortunately not a
good eco system for a start up to grow in.

------
enricotal
I really appreciate the Italia Startup Visa effort, but here's the facts...

THE CONS:

Italy environment is toxic for a startup.

Italy is a MandarinCracy.

It is a country, not ruled by politicians, but by self serving high level
officials. They oversee 4 million strong public workforce, and have created
the most complex set of rules & regulations and to justify they own existence
along with the highest taxation (80%) on the world to pay for them.

THE PROS

Italy Freelance workforce is great for a startup.

They have a huge freelancers Workforce, (designers and Developers) with the
same talent found in the Silicon Valley at the fraction of the cost. ($28K to
$40K year salary). They are called "popolo delle partite iva" and are de facto
a second level citizen. They do not have the same privileges as the rest of
the 50+ workforce. Still.. they will work hard and passion for any project
with great critical thinking.

My final advice:

Create a business somewhere else (UK or US) and setup a small R&D development
team in Italy

~~~
edelweiss22
I don't understand why people like to bash on their own country. 80%? Not
certainly for everyone.

As a freelance I pay 5% until I reach an higher level of income and I'll be
able to pay more taxes. On top of this there's 21% for retirement
contributions.

Is there any other country where a lower amount of taxes is paid?

~~~
gQTZNsXG
You stupid idiot. You're describing "regime dei minimi" as if it was a regular
taxation for freelancers, but it's definitely not.

"Regime dei minimi" is a taxation level available only if you bill not more
than 30'000 €/year. Note this is not net income, but gross income.

So you go down to 22'000€ after taxes (21% + 5%) and then you have to take
away your own costs, and then you can keep some money for yourself. Also, if
you live in a big city (let's say Rome or Milan) that is definitely not going
to be enough to live a peaceful life and raise a family.

Oh, but that's a secondary problem: the first one is finding clients that are
actually going to pay you in full.

If anything goes wrong laws take ages and the cost of lawyers and time spent
in court vastly overcomes what you're losing.

~~~
davidw
Your calculations are correct, but please remove the name-calling. It takes
away a lot from the quality of the discussion.

~~~
IlPeach
I read it with a thick Italian accent, it made it more funny than offensive :)

------
twsted
Wow, I would never have expected such level of pessimism and negativity from
my compatriots. There are many things to improve here and this new effort
could be a little step in that direction. Surely many other things must be
done and our bad political class has not helped at all.

I've have co-founded a couple of startups here (one
[http://www.eidosmedia.com](http://www.eidosmedia.com) has had a very good
success worldwide; another one [http://catflow.it](http://catflow.it) is
gaining momentum) and I continue to have a great optimism for what can be done
in this country, maintaining a good lifestyle.

Fiscal pressure, crazy laws? Yes. Is it a suicide working here? Absolutely
not.

------
toyg
As an Italian expat, I do welcome the attempt; I just wonder who would
actually apply for one.

If you're in the US, your ecosystem is so much more startup-friendly, there is
no point moving anywhere else -- opening a cheap R&D is probably the only
reason I can think of, but if you're going for costs savings in that area,
wouldn't you get a better deal in Eastern Europe?

If you are in Europe, you don't need a VISA to move to Italy.

The only people who would lust after this, IMHO, are:

1\. South-Americans who can't or won't get into the United States;

2\. Middle-Easters who can't or won't get into Gulf countries or Israel;

3\. the kids of first-generation immigrants in Italy who can't get citizenship
(because Italian immigration laws are stupid).

Are these constituencies large enough to create a significant ecosystem? I
don't know. They will certainly face huge problems with casual racism in the
business sector, if they try to sell in the Italian market. And venture
finance for unconnected businesses in Italy is non-existent; the culture is
very risk-averse, and capital is too sparsely distributed to make venturing
palatable to the average investor.

But hey, good luck. At least they're trying something, I guess.

~~~
aercolino
Very. Well. Said.

------
tobltobs
If you want to tap into the pool of talented italian engineers you could also
open up a shop at the border to Italy in Switzerland and employ cross-border
commuter from northern Italy. You would have to pay them more than if you
would open up your shop in Italy, but you would avoid these kafkaeske system
called Italy and enjoy all the advanteges of Switzerland.

~~~
pkaye
Then why not just stay fully in Switzerland?

~~~
edelweiss22
..because you'd have to pay 3x to get swiss to work for you, while italians
might jump the border for a lot less than what they'd deserve.

Don't forget you need to pay 4x (or more) for rent of any office space (or
housing space) in Switzerland compared to the other side of the border.

This explains why lots of businesses that migrated from italy to switzerland
in search of an "el dorado" closed shop after a short timespan, realizing
business is hard everywhere.

------
albertoloddo
Beside all the good of the weather, food, beaches, history, art, women, etc.
we all know Italy is a living dead. Europe is a living dead and everything.99%
of Successful Italian startups get seeded here and then relocate to uk or us
to get series A and better taxes and legal system. But engineering workforce
is cheap and very talented.

But there's something that really kills it. It's us Italians. We just love to
complain. Yes It's a shit, they are stealing our money and tying our hands,
but it's sufficient to ready these comments to understand that the problem is
us.

Winners find solutions. Losers find excuses.

I'm proud of being Italian. We are people of love, not people of freedom. I
have almost married an american girl and lived and worked there on and off for
two years. We have to fight for our country and for our Europe.

Besides that, everything we know will be disrupted and what will be left is
just our memories.

I work at an accelerator (registered incubator) I'll be happy to chat with you
who want to know more about here.

A

------
micheleb
ctrl-F "coffee" \--> 0 results.

Come on, no mention of the superior quality of coffee we enjoy here? And you
call yourselves hackers?

Picture me disappointed.

~~~
jjgreen
true that, best coffee in the world [jealous]

------
gQTZNsXG
As as an Italian expat:

Startups in Italy. Yeah sure. Go on. Lol.

[http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-
content/uploads/2013/07/popcor...](http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-
content/uploads/2013/07/popcorn_the_it_crowd.gif)

------
krumiro79
Italian here. I've been employed, a freelance and also been an employer (had
an ecommerce ltd).

My experience is that Italy is not a fertile place for both employers and
employees because of tax pressure, corruption, lack of skilled workers and low
salaries.

There's no reason for an EU citizen to choose Italy as there's more chances to
succeed in other countries.

Popular companies have moved or planning to move away
([http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11284613/Ferrari-
mulls-relocation-to-London-following-Fiat-split.html)).

------
frapposelli
YAI (yet another italian), born and raised here, I've been through most of the
'typical' italian IT jobs in my career: IT support, Developer, Consultant,
both as employee and self employed, I just want to echo everybody's comment to
STAY AWAY from Italy for anything that is related to IT, the country simply
don't care and your business venture will likely fail (fiscal pressure,
corruption, toxic laws... you name it).

My advice is to rake up as many talented folks as possible (we have no
shortage of them) and bring them somewhere else with a decent pay (something
that is just impossible to get here).

------
raindog
Nice try Italian government. But hey dude, don't do it. We are a sinking ship.

------
s3nnyy
Wouldn't this be a great way for non-EU citizens to get a residence-permit
within the EU? Then, one could move and work in more lucrative places, like
Switzerland. (Full disclosure: I am interested in tech-recruiting in
Switzerland - see [https://medium.com/@techrecruiting.ch/eight-reasons-why-i-
mo...](https://medium.com/@techrecruiting.ch/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-
switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90))

~~~
CalRobert
You'll want to check out:

Dutch American Friendship Treaty (if you can self-employ and are from the US
this could be your best option)

Blue Card (If you can get a job in Germany)

Irish Startup Visa ([http://www.pond-crosser.com/uk-and-ireland/republic-
ireland/...](http://www.pond-crosser.com/uk-and-ireland/republic-
ireland/irish-entrepreneurship-visa/))

Disclaimer - I put up pond-crosser a while ago to keep track of some of these
things.

Switzerland is lovely but their population recently voted to restrict free
movement of workers with the EU so maybe not ideal.

~~~
lawl
> _Switzerland is lovely but their population recently voted to restrict free
> movement of workers with the EU so maybe not ideal._

No we haven't :) What was voted on was that the gov. should be able to cap the
number of immigrants per year if necessary. That has neither been done yet,
nor will anything change in practice because the EU puts too much pressure on
this.

~~~
tobltobs
Isn't "cap the number of immigrants" a restriction of free movement of workers
with the EU?

------
davidw
As an American living in Italy, here's my perspective:

Italy is a wonderful _place_ , but not a very well run _country_. Food,
geography, history... it's fractally beautiful in that the big, amazing things
are worth seeing, but you can also go to some small town and find something
fascinating. It's just bursting with great places. The people are mostly a
plus too, I have good friends here, and know a lot of smart hackers. When I
moved here from San Francisco a number of years ago, I still had plenty of
people to talk tech with. Here in northern Italy, people work fairly hard (and
I'm sure there are people in the south who do as well), and don't command high
salaries for their efforts. In some parts of Italy, corruption is a big
problem, but it's not something I have seen much of on a day-to-day level. Of
course I don't work in a field where I would, either.

The down side: bureaucracy is a nightmare, taxes are high, and a lot of people
are leaving, because they can get more money elsewhere. It's no longer as
cheap to live here as it once was, either. The long and the short of it is:
no, I would not really consider opening a business here a good idea, although
I would consider opening an R&D center to benefit from high quality workers at
relatively cheap prices.

Italy is ranked quite badly here for a reason:
[http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings](http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings)

Italians: it _is_ possible to change, if you work at it. I was able to help
accomplish a small change myself, despite not being from here, and not having
money or connections:
[http://www.governo.it/Notizie/Presidenza/dettaglio.asp?d=690...](http://www.governo.it/Notizie/Presidenza/dettaglio.asp?d=69038)
. So, things are not good, but if you're willing to invest some time and
effort, they _can_ be improved, a little bit at a time.

Part of the problem, IMO, is the idea that the government should 'guide'
things. "Startups are good!" right? So they create a government definition of
what an "innovative startup" is, and give those companies some benefits. This
means more public employees to look after it, more hoops to jump through, more
people trying to make a company that the bureaucrats have incentivized, rather
than a company that simply does what it does. Even my own small contribution
got watered down in that way: rather than simplifying SRL's (the Italian
equivalent of an LLC) for everyone, they created a new category.

That's the wrong approach: what they absolutely need to do is simplify the
bureaucracy, and secondly, lower taxes. First and foremost, the number and
complexity of them. Paying a lot of taxes is not so bad if it's simple,
straightforward, and does not take a lot of time, and you receive something
for them. But all the little one-off taxes and the complexity of dealing with
others is terrible.

This is all stuff economists and others have been saying for years.

As I mentioned elsewhere: Italy doesn't need to be the best place to do
business. It's got lots of good things going for it. It just has to start
sucking less.

If you're interested in more of 'my take on things', I write about life in
Italy here: [http://blog.therealitaly.com/](http://blog.therealitaly.com/)

~~~
Antomanno
Great post ! Please check my post here [http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-
startup-program-startup-...](http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-
program-startup-visa)

------
jnardiello
# Sorry LONG comment and need to go to work, little to no time to read again
and fix errors. Be kind.

I'm yet another italian (expat to London) and let me state a few things which
are not listed on that landing page but that you should consider before
applying:

I've worked for a few months in a "startup" inside a major italian incubator
(Working Capital). I was developer #1 of the company, and here are a few
things I want to tell you about incubators in Italy: 1) The level of
mentorship provided is close to zero. Their main role is "office"
surveillance. They will contribute with ZERO competence to your startup as
they have no valuable experience. 2) There are two kind of companies inside
incubators: those "with connections" and those without. Companies without
connections were accepted just so that the incubator has some numbers to show
off. Those with connections (which is most likely due to the parents of the
founders being friend with some excutive in the incubator partners) will
receive enough support, will behave without a code of conduct, will make it
through the whole process without a flaw while If your company will be on the
"no connections" side expect (and I will state this again) to be simply
abandoned. 3) Investors, pitches and demo days: they mostly are a bunch of
executives from partnering companies who have close to zero experience in
investing and who gives zero shit about startups. Again, they will just
hangout events because of political connections with incubators and as soon as
pitches are over they will leave the presentation flying. Execting any kind of
feedback nor real investment is just nonsense. I never saw ANY company in an
incubator getting anything from official investors. This is still true if you
are a random startup without connection. If you are one with connections, you
won't attend demo-day, you won't be doing spitches and you'll be funded
anyway. 4) In general the startups level is mediocre to say the best. As the
selection process is quite random (remember: you are there so that they can
say they are an incubator and get money from the public administration) most
of the ideas are just completely random and founder have ZERO technical
background. In the incubator I used to work, I was the only developer (and we
are talking about 40+ people in the room). Believe it or not. 5) Getting
investments won't be easy. Which doesn't mean that if you work hard enough you
can still achieve results. It means that nobody wants to invest, there's no
investments culture on the investor side and no support from so-called
incubators. I saw probably 1-2 companies getting any sort of funding and they
took years of "working for free" to get a 250k investment.

So, this is pretty much what you should expect when bootstrapping a company in
Italy inside an incubator. Of course this is bureaucratic and tax-related
problems aside (which are quite difficult to sort: you should expect to throw
tens of thousands of euros to get your company officially started and keep
your books in order. These costs will probably exceed any funding you'll get).

A few more things to consider: 1) The italian culture is business-adverse.
Average People aim in life is to find a stable job in a big-size
company/public administration until pension. As a startupper you'll be mostly
seen as a young unemployed wasting his time. 2) If you are REALLY talented and
lucky, you build up the "right connections", get yourself funded and open a
profitable company you will likely have to deal with mafia (as someone already
mentioned). First hand experience: my uncle bootstrapped a profitable fish-
import company. Mafia knocked, asked them to acquire the business paying
close-to-zero. At the beginning my uncle refused: His car and house catched
fire. Of course institutions did nothing about this. He sold the company and
left the country. No jokes here.

So, I could probably go on but I hope you got the point :) Should you apply?
It depends I guess from where you are right now. If you want to launch a
business in Europe and don't know where to start: then maybe you could apply
to be accepted in Italy BUT then you need to have a plan to move either to
London or to Berlin. If you think to move to Italy and find a healthy
business-oriented environment: you are SO wrong.

Good luck!

~~~
Antomanno
Quite true man!

------
stefanocutello
I'd like to ask to all these _complaining_ italians that are telling people to
stay away from their home country: how many of you are still in Italy and what
are you _doing_ to change things?

I don't think that throwing shit (true or not) and scaring international
talents from coming to Italy opening their own startup is a good way to help.

Disclaimer: I'm Italian, living and running my company in NL since 3 years.

------
talete
well it depends what are you working on. It's not a complete hell but it's
true Italy is not so business friendly as it pretends to be, especially when
it comes to bureaucracy, laws, services. Things are changing, true, and the
situation is far better than it was just 3 years ago. The truth: still a lot
has to be done yet. But you may find lots of talented developers, skilled
people, educated scientists and here living costs and salaries are cheaper
than in other countries. In Milan and other cities in the north some local
ecosystems are arising. Think of your business, of your target customers, of
your needs. Then it might be worth a try. Just do not expect any help by the
government or public administration. Source: I am italian, and I live in
Milan, I am both a consultant helping small businesses and entrepreneur.

------
Antomanno
This is my post in italian on the scandalous Italia Startup Visa, i am going
to translate in english soon
[http://antoniomanno.blogspot.com/2015/01/startup-chile-
contr...](http://antoniomanno.blogspot.com/2015/01/startup-chile-contro-
startup-italia.html)

------
unimportant
I would argue that most countries just make really half assed attempts at
creating an international startup environment and this is one of them.

Mostly there are very few investors locally, visas are difficult to obtain,
the laws aren't really business friendly at all and not suitable for investors
etc.

------
gQTZNsXG
Oh, sidenote: probably the biggest italian company, FIAT, recently moved
(fiscally speaking) out of Italy, towards states with lower fiscal pressure
(Netherlands, if I recall correctly).

And FIAT was/is big and competent enough to handle all of the sh*t italian
laws impose.

Just saying.

------
italysinkin
Here we can see italians still don't get we went through globalization yet. If
you open a startup in Italy it doesn't mean you need to rely on the italian
market to survive. You can create value at a cheap price and then sell
somewhere else.

Also: ever heard of russian/chinese/japanese/american mafias? "People with
connections" have more chances everywhere.

Other countries beware of italians with the mindset shown here. I've met them
abroad and they all tell the same story which they don't know anything about.

Italy doesn't have the best weather, doesn't have the best food, doesn't have
the best people, and so on. It has some good things and some bad things like
everywhere else. _DO_ something about the bad things instead of lamenting that
you can't get the good things after you left.

~~~
jnardiello
Bullshit. Sorry but this is rhetoric and you clearly never went through the
amazing experience of bootstrapping a company in Italy.

Italy is just entrepreneurs hell on earth, and it's a very practical
statement.

1) Open a company: minimum of 4k spent on papers (of course, thanks to notars
and accountants) 2) First year: face insane taxes. Pay for your pension, pay
for your IRAP/IRPEF. Anticipate 50% of what is dued next year due to
"projections" the gov do on how much you'll make. 3) iterate first year

On a 30k eurs revenue, with the "Young entrepreneurs formula" (where you are
supposed to pay much less than usual limited companies) you'll end up paying
up to 17k in taxes. I let you doing the math. And this happened to ME, not to
some random friend of a friend.

------
Antomanno
This is my post on the Startup Visa [http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-
startup-program-startup-...](http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-
program-startup-visa)

------
blueyes1977
I suggest you better watch this documentary "Run away or Stay"
[http://www.madeoflimestone.com/mofl-
vimeo/](http://www.madeoflimestone.com/mofl-vimeo/)

max

------
rabidonrails
If I remember correctly, Peldi Guilizzoni (Balsamiq) highly discourages
against starting a company in Italy. Something about how taxes are
collected...

~~~
balsamiq
I do? I don't remember saying that.

I don't really want to get into this debate, but I've been running Balsamiq
from Italy since 2008, and it's been just fine. Then again, YMMV...we're just
a little mom-and-pop software shop, not a "startup" in the paulg sense of the
word.

~~~
rabidonrails
I think it was related to Italy prematurely collecting the coming years'
taxes.

I've watched and read so much of your stuff I can't even find which one it was
in.

------
ratlike
Hey, good luck finding a decent internet connection outside of the main
cities. My parents live an hour from Milan and they get 3G at best.

~~~
agos
It's not like in other nations there's great internet in the countryside.

~~~
micheleb
...and having worked remotely with people from Southern California for the
last couple of years, it looks like they're in a generally worse state than us
(northern Italians), at least from a network stability perspective

------
napolux
Plus they "forgot" to tell you in that site that taxation is around 55% here
in Italy. STAY AWAY!

------
nextpaco
Italians always crying but they live better than others

------
jdimov
Forget the corruption, crazy laws, favouritism and racketeering. The biggest
problem you'll face doing business in Italy is the wide-spread, deep-rooted
"it can wait" mentality that is really prevalent. No one can be bothered with
anything. Be prepared to wait for months and months for trivial tasks that can
be completed in 30 minutes. Be prepared for people to cancel meetings at the
last minute, then set a new date and time just to miss that one too - repeat
ad nauseam. Don't even try to explain the concept of a "deadline" to an
Italian.

The worst part is you can't even hate them for this, because they're so
friendly and likeable!

Other than that, it's a lovely country. Make your wealth elsewhere and go
enjoy what Italy has to offer.

------
stefantalpalaru
Italy is a great country to live in and I'm not trying to discourage you, but
keep in mind that from every €100 you make, at least €66 go to the state.

To put this in terms of time and assuming you're a workaholic who doesn't take
vacations, in a year you work 8 months for the state and 4 months for
yourself.

And then there's the problem of the state being a jerk and making you pay VAT
one year in advance or taxing you based on estimates done with market studies
instead of the much smaller revenue you declare.

Something like: "the average company/self-employed individual in your business
made €30K this year while you declare only €10K. We're gonna assume you're
lying to us and tax you for the market average, mkay? Oh, and we'll need the
22% VAT on the €30K we think you'll do next year right now."

------
kumarski
Ndrangheta.....

~~~
mmf
Organized crime has nothing to do with the issues of opening a startup in
Italy! What is missing is an ecosystem for startups: no VCs, fair amount of
bureaucracy and challenging employment laws. However, you get great engineers,
passionate, inventive and hard working for a pricing that is competitive with
India. (Sad but true).

~~~
gQTZNsXG
Yeah sure. Go open a startup company in Naples, wait for someone to ask you
for /pizzo/ and let's talk again about this.

~~~
stefantalpalaru
You know how much is the protection tax in zones controlled by organized
crime? 3% of your profit.

You know how much the state takes from your (revenue - expenses)? At least
66%.

~~~
gQTZNsXG
Yup, and those two sum up.

It's not State XOR Mafia. It's state AND Mafia. As if state alone was not
enough.

~~~
stefantalpalaru
Of course they sum up. My point is that there's a much bigger problem in the
cost of doing business than the protection tax. About 22 times bigger.

