
Tribler Invented 'Paid' Torrent Seeding Over a Decade Ago - okket
https://torrentfreak.com/tribler-invented-paid-torrent-seeding-over-a-decade-ago-181013/
======
devos50
Tribler developer here. We have been working hard to mature and deploy this
feature, and we are getting close to a fully operational token economy and
decentralized marketplace. We have designed and implemented own scalable
blockchain implementation, which we use to keep track of bandwidth transfers
over time. The next step is to actively refuse connections to peers who have a
low balance.

Other than that, we are also actively working on many other scientific
problems. One of these problems, is how to bootstrap trust in distributed
systems. Numerous master students and PhD students have been working on this
topic. For a complete list of our ongoing efforts, see
[https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki#current-items-
under-...](https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki#current-items-under-active-
development).

~~~
pdimitar
Does the Tribler client have the feature of acting like a "super-node"? Namely
I don't want to download anything right now, but I am OK to donate (rent?) my
bandwidth and storage so people can upload to my machine (and download from
it) while I am out for 6 hours doing chores and errands?

~~~
tribler
Yes, you can donate your bandwidth to others. This gives you bandwidth tokens.
Tech details:
[https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/issues/3337](https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/issues/3337)

~~~
pdimitar
I installed the app and still have no idea what to do. I would like to start
an experiment where I import several Linux distribution torrents (that I
already have) and have people download from me.

I don't want to download them from scratch because I already have them.

How do I do this? Or am I misreading the idea of the app? It seems to me that
it is a BitTorrent client with extra features, am I wrong?

~~~
synctext
For seeding and creating a new channel with content:
[https://www.tribler.org/faq.html](https://www.tribler.org/faq.html)

Bear with us, the documentation is still work in progress. If other Tribler
users download from your channel, you get tokens. See
[https://www.tribler.org/howto.html](https://www.tribler.org/howto.html)

~~~
WhiteOwlLion
What are the tokens good for, getting priority bandwidth when you want
content?

Does the purchase of Bittorrent Inc by Tron affect your organization or
strategy at all?

------
synctext
BBC News announcement of "bandwidth as a currency" from 2007:
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6971904.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6971904.stm)

------
throwaway83342
You might want to read a bit through this 4 year old thread about Tribler:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8780313](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8780313).
Apart from the mountains of grant money and severly broken crypto ("set aside
'RSA without blinding'; this is RSA without padding.") which might or might
not be fixed by now, I think the main point is that: "Tribler has a very long
history of making high profile claims and never being able to follow through
with actually usable software".

And it seems they're doing it again, now even making clearly false claims. See
this paper, published this summer:
[https://arxiv.org/abs/1806.01926](https://arxiv.org/abs/1806.01926)

They claim that this is about the "deployment" of an identity platform, but
they only talk about several student projects during a blockchain course given
by Pouwelse. The conclusion paragraph is really bordering on academic
misconduct. They claim: "Thusly, we have created the new Dutch digital
passport solution ready for global adoption", but there isn't a shred of
evidence to back this up. There is no production ready system. There is some
work being done by course students here
([https://github.com/Tribler/trustchain-
android](https://github.com/Tribler/trustchain-android)), but this is very far
from "ready for global adoption". The documentation about ZKPs for example
states "it was decided to leave zero knowledge proofs out of the application
for now, until a better library comes around", while the paper claims that
this is core part of the solution.

They also say that they have "presented the ground work for a Self-Sovereign
Identity solution which is in production in the Netherlands for use by
citizens in the latter half of 2018". They are here framing two small pilots
in two Dutch municipalities to be a production ready system. Those two pilots,
by the way, have yet to materialize.

(throwaway because I don't want to be ambushed about this later)

~~~
synctext
> The conclusion paragraph is really bordering on academic misconduct.

Sad you see it that way. For obvious reasons our Github code for Bittorrent-
based token economy is separated from passport-grade identity system with
experimental zero-knowledge proof system.

> The documentation about ZKPs for example states [...]

Those are old student projects; this is the repo and code implementing
"Evaluating 2-DNF Formulas on Ciphertexts" by Dan Boneh,
[https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/2dnf.pdf](https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/2dnf.pdf)

[https://github.com/Tribler/py-
ipv8/blob/master/ipv8/attestat...](https://github.com/Tribler/py-
ipv8/blob/master/ipv8/attestation/wallet/primitives/cryptosystem/boneh.py)

> two small pilots in two Dutch municipalities

These pilots are indeed not moving fast enough for us, we're now using a
notary-based approach. Governments don't innovate as fast as they themselves
want. -Tribler founder.

~~~
throwaway83342
> Sad you see it that way. For obvious reasons our Github code for Bittorrent-
> based token economy is separated from passport-grade identity system with
> experimental zero-knowledge proof system.

I really don't know what those obvious reasons would be. I can understand that
"the details of this biometric system will remain proprietary", but I don't
see why the rest of it wouldn't be developed out in the open. That's the one
thing I do think is quite commendable about the Tribler project and the
courses you give: everything is very open for everyone to see. Are you in this
case afraid the results will not stand up to scrutiny?

I'm quite skeptical, especially in light of your past conduct. If the system
you are presenting is really so "ready for deployment", there would be no
reason to include those irrelevant student projects as part of the paper.
Instead, they form the main portion of the results.

The title of the paper is "Deployment of a Blockchain-Based Self-Sovereign
Identity", but instead, it's about juggling some performance tests of student
projects along with the IPv8 library, and never about that supposed
deployment.

> These pilots are indeed not moving fast enough for us, we're now using a
> notary-based approach. Governments don't innovate as fast as they themselves
> want. -Tribler founder.

Well, I can really understand that those municipalities are not innovating
fast enough. That must be frustrating. That doesn't give you a license to
simply make up things as you go along.

There is no "self-sovereign identity solution which is in production in the
Netherlands for use by citizens in the latter half of 2018", as you claim
there is. There would only be two municipal pilots. There is no "new Dutch
digital passport solution ready for global adoption". Not yet. If it was in
production, I would be able to use it.

Stop making things up.

~~~
synctext
> Stop making things up.

Again, sad to see this much frustration. Please check out real code for
attestations with experimental zero-knowledge proof in Python.
[https://github.com/Tribler/py-
ipv8/blob/master/ipv8/attestat...](https://github.com/Tribler/py-
ipv8/blob/master/ipv8/attestation/wallet/primitives/cryptosystem/boneh.py)

~~~
throwaway83342
It's a bit strange that you don't respond to my main complaint, namely making
up statements for an academic publication, but now keep reiterating that you
really implemented some homomorphic encryption scheme in Python.

It's a very cute scheme, but it has little to do with the supposed "new Dutch
digital passport solution ready for global adoption". I brought it up in the
context of the only shred of evidence (but apparently no so) that such a
solution exists. The paper itself also literally states that the
"implementation of the Zero-Knowledge Proofs will remain outside of the scope
of this paper".

I'm indeed a bit frustrated with the overblown claims being made, but I don't
think that's particularly unhealthy in this case. I've given ample motivation,
to which you can choose to respond substantively.

~~~
synctext
> student projects along with the IPv8 library, and never about that supposed
> deployment.

This release of IPv8 now has had 6000 downloads, through Tribler. Prior
version 7.0 was 110000 downloads. This is real deployed software.

> making up statements for an academic publication

You are correct that the attestation part is not broadly used, it's only on
the Google playstore as "Trustchain". No legal validity, we're aiming to get
that with our notary partners. Nowhere in the world is there legal government-
based recognition of a true self-sovereign identity for border travel. Talking
to upper management of three responsible ministries (internal,safety,defense)
is painstaking slow. We made a mistake and believed early on that
municipalities could be quick plus helpful; however, they seem to also have
little legal maneuvering space for legal innovation.

------
realusername
You also have other similar projects trying to mix Crypto & Bittorent like
Vtorrent ([http://vtorrent.info/](http://vtorrent.info/)) and Upfiring
([https://upfiring.com/](https://upfiring.com/)). They seem both in a work in
progress state.

~~~
synctext
those initiatives do not seem open source and non-profit, like Tribler.

~~~
consp
Tribler is mostly "funded" (as Open Source) by the Delft University of
Technology[1] as it is Johan Pouwelse's[2] group original idea as far as I
know. Some courses and MSc/PHD assignments are implemented into the program.

disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with them, though Pouwelse was one committee
member at my thesis defense.

[1][https://www.tribler.org/about.html](https://www.tribler.org/about.html)

[2][https://www.tudelft.nl/ewi/over-de-
faculteit/afdelingen/soft...](https://www.tudelft.nl/ewi/over-de-
faculteit/afdelingen/software-technology/distributed-systems/people/johan-
pouwelse/)

