
The Best Article Ever Written About Bragging - less_penguiny
https://www.lesspenguiny.com/articles/best-article-on-bragging
======
rb808
I really dont like bragging, but I've noticed in groups where no one is
bragging or talking about themselves its really boring.

I have a bunch of really smart friends who do really interesting things and
when we meet up its like what are you up to? Nothing much. Nothing
interesting. Later you find out that they just visited Mongolia, another is
learning Russian and the other built renewable power system for a holiday
house they just bought, but they're too worried about bragging to bring it up.
(exaggerated) Meanwhile I (and I'm guessing they) dont like social status but
kinda disappointed they don't get loved much.

Meanwhile I have other asshole friends who talk about the new expensive
kitchen he got installed and its actually nice to hate on him and have a
decent conversation about it.

So I'm starting to rethink my views on bragging. Maybe its a good thing.

~~~
amsilprotag
I'm surprised the author quoted Why Nerds are Unpopular and didn't cite what I
feel like is the most relevant part:

 _When there is some real external test of skill, it isn 't painful to be at
the bottom of the hierarchy. A rookie on a football team doesn't resent the
skill of the veteran; he hopes to be like him one day and is happy to have the
chance to learn from him. The veteran may in turn feel a sense of noblesse
oblige. And most importantly, their status depends on how well they do against
opponents, not on whether they can push the other down._

It is nice to be in a group where people can do praise-worthy things and be
praised for them. And, as the conclusion addresses, it is nice to give praise
when due. This norm can be eroded by braggers. But it can also be eroded by
people taking any mention of an accomplishment as a slight.

For example, the Oxford anecdote seems like the author going out of his way to
feel slighted and assume malice. The excited salesperson anecdote is similar.
Do others have a duty to mask excitement out of worry that it could be
interpreted as bragging?

One of the best habits I have adopted is muttering "good on them" and moving
along when an emotion suspiciously similar to jealously starts bubbling up.

~~~
aidenn0
I disagree that the "external test of skill" is the direct cause of what makes
it less painful to be at the bottom of the hierarchy. It's merely the
membership in the group; to be an effective team camaraderie is important, so
it will be pursued for its own goals, but there are other ways of camaraderie
forming.

I (male) grew up in a neighborhood with several boys my own age. I was the
nerdy/awkward &c. one and so I was picked on when it was just that group.
However, I was absolutely part of that group, and I saw the difference that
made both with my other equally awkward peers that lacked such a group, and my
sister, who was less awkward, but had it much rougher.

------
brianmcc
Hi less_penguiny - _absolutely loved this article_.

Brilliant writing.

I'm also finding myself thinking a lot about social interactions, especially
the dumb nonsense vast swathes of our populations carry out, and being
currently in the middle of Desmond Morris "Human Zoo" (brilliant, slightly
dated, but you'll love it if you're not familiar) your piece really struck a
chord - particularly with "Bragging is personally imposing what-you-believe-
to-be status-elevating thoughts on your audience". Status, tribes, dominance,
all seem explain so much modern phenomena from a species which ought to know
better.

In "About" you write "I was heartbroken by the tumbleweed response I got for
my last writing project, so I don’t intend to spin my wheels writing in vain
again."

Please don't feel discouraged I get much the same on pretty much every
submission I post here, so it's not you, per se! Writing is the easy and fun
part, but like a startup I suspect promotion, networking, and all that play a
big part. Being an established name makes a huge difference too - it all gets
much harder if you don't have a large following.

Are you on Twitter? That can be good for exposure. Happy to follow and RT!

Best of luck!

~~~
forkerenok
Your assessment of the article prompted me to actually read it. Now I can't
help but feel that your whole comment is one giant brag!

> Hi less_penguiny - absolutely loved this article. > Brilliant writing.

Bragging about your good taste.

> I'm also finding myself thinking a lot about social interactions, especially
> the dumb nonsense vast swathes of our populations carry out, and being
> currently in the middle of Desmond Morris "Human Zoo" (brilliant, slightly
> dated, but you'll love it if you're not familiar) your piece really struck a
> chord - particularly with "Bragging is personally imposing what-you-believe-
> to-be status-elevating thoughts on your audience". Status, tribes,
> dominance, all seem explain so much modern phenomena from a species which
> ought to know better.

Also a brag: "I'm so much more aware than the rest of them average people".
Followed by one-upmanship brag: book recommendation.

> In "About" you write "I was heartbroken by the tumbleweed response I got for
> my last writing project, so I don’t intend to spin my wheels writing in vain
> again."

> Please don't feel discouraged I get much the same on pretty much every
> submission I post here, so it's not you, per se! Writing is the easy and fun
> part, but like a startup I suspect promotion, networking, and all that play
> a big part. Being an established name makes a huge difference too - it all
> gets much harder if you don't have a large following.

Another "I've been here long enough" brag.

~~~
brianmcc
Ha ha it wasn't intended that way but I can't argue with you right now, I need
to clean the mess one of my horses just made beside my new Porsche. Honestly,
servants can't get anything right these days...

------
ashelmire
The unfortunate reality is that if you don’t sing your own praises, you will
miss out on opportunities in life. Most people don’t have the time to really
pay attention to what you’re doing (bosses, interviewers, dating interests,
etc), so you have to make them aware - or you’re just off in the corner being
unseen.

~~~
baxtr
Of course marketing on your own behalf is helpful, but I’ve found that the
most successful people don’t brag about their achievements. Instead, somehow
they get _other_ people to talk about their merits within the organization.

~~~
justaguyhere
Is this _before_ they became successful or _after_? Once we reach a certain
level of success, it gets much easier to get other people to talk about us.
But when we are just starting and unknown, who is gonna sing our praises
(assuming we are good at something) other than our moms? :P

~~~
castlecrasher2
>But when we are just starting and unknown, who is gonna sing our praises

What I've noticed is just conversing empathetically with others a la How to
Win Friends and Influence People and having technical discussion is enough for
others to sing my praises, from my time as intern through middle-manager.
Basically, be interested in others over yourself. For more on the nuance of
"interested" I'd suggest the above book.

------
hnzix
It's almost as if we're a bunch of barely evolved primates jockeying over
money, power and status for a limited pool of breeding partners and resources.
_Of course_ I realized _long_ ago that I'm above such petty concerns.

~~~
csunbird
Very good subtle bragging, I applaud you sir.

------
Tor3
The statement is missing two words: "other people's". Insert between 'hates'
and 'bragging', and the question after the comma obviously isn't needed
anymore.

~~~
arglebarnacle
I understood the title more as, "since we all know other people's bragging is
insufferable and does little to convince us of the bragger's supposedly higher
status, why do we continue to brag ourselves as if we believe it will have the
intended effect on others?"

The answer, and the article gets at this in the last section, is a variety of
anxious human emotional impulses. I guess we knew that, but the way the
article teased it apart was interesting for me anyway.

------
darkerside
I enjoyed the article very much, but I question the premise of building a
framework around bragging that sets it apart from normal conversation. I
preferred the ending where we had the opportunity to understand how the lines
between bragging and information sharing break down, and that riding that line
can be a positive experience for both parties. I especially loved the end
where we realize that our reaction to bragging can offset the impact on
ourselves and bring joy to others simultaneously.

------
air7
Very fun read. Though by focusing (with great humor and nuance) on the
"Others" and their faults, it perhaps misses an important question (imo)
namely, why does other people's bragging affect _me_ negatively? Why do I not
feel genuinely happy for other people's accomplishments, or just joyfully
notice their childlike attempts at feeling better about themselves through
social approval? God knows none of Their motivations are foreign to me ...

------
nl
This made me smile: _I claimed that I was both a Haskell and Lisp programmer,
a statement that you can roughly translate into non-programmer talk as “I only
listen to My Bloody Valentine shoe-gaze and Radiohead B-sides played in
reverse”._

------
DoofusOfDeath
@less_penguiny: Very nice article, as others have said. It seems like you
really nailed a lot of subtleties.

Your article hinted at a problem we all face: sometimes we're left _guessing_
whether or not the other person is intentionally bragging. I.e., there's a
problem of ambiguity.

I'd like to suggest a follow-up article: suggestions for how to communicate
certain ideas in a way that minimizes the risk of being interpreted as
bragging. Or maybe better, minimizes the risk of making the audience feel bad
because of the same underlying psychological issues (insecurity, envy, etc.)
that get tickled by bragging.

For example, another comment in this discussion [0] points out how someone
trying to praise you could be (mis?)understood as actually bragging. It would
be awesome to post a catalog of ways people can avoid this kind of ambiguity.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18148282](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18148282)

~~~
less_penguiny
cheers :D

So the intention of the article was partially to do exactly this, but I didn't
want the tone to be too heavy-handed or self-helpy so I relegated this
information to being between the lines. If you take a look at the number of
penguins I gave each technique, that roughly correlates to how positively I
view each bragging technique. As the website name suggests, the less penguins
the better!

------
poc_m
I love this article. Unfortunately, looking back at conversations I had with
people this summer, most of the talks I had _very_ easily fit into these
categories.

If one can easily categorize bragging techniques in these buckets, it begs the
question: how can a person who is genuinely interested in making a
conversation interact with people who brag? A lot of people brag. If that
makes you feel bad, do you just give up on them and move on? Is there some way
to use these bragging forces to a positive effect?

I'm genuinely asking. I'm constantly craving good connections with people, you
don't meet a lot of people who are able to talk about themselves and inspire
you without looking like they are bragging and get you annoyed. (Any answer
will not fit under the "Beneficence Brag" category since I'm explicitly asking
for help :))

~~~
less_penguiny
I don't have a general solution but perhaps a few ideas:

One is to lower your threshold for what you count as being bragging —
sometimes people are just sharing and they don't mean any harm. And sometimes
they just really need validation. But then again, despite their benign
intentions, hearing their status might sting, especially if things aren't
going your way lately.

Another option is to poke fun at them, assuming you are on joking terms
yadayada. E.g. I caught myself bragging about the achievements of my previous
business partner at a party last weekend and the room was having none of it.
As soon as I finished my sentence, they erupted into "woopdey doo" or
(impersonating me) "I don't mean to brag or anything!!"

So there's that.

------
the_clarence
Took me a while to figure out why the title was so blunt.

~~~
jakeogh
It checks out. My face hurts.

------
jaclaz
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see what I call "deal bragging" (which is very
common I believe and that particularly irks me).

Basically everyone (but me) manages to get things (or work done) for much less
than their common market value is or however much less than what I can get it
at.

Be it a car, a pair of trousers or a phone, or the renovation works of his/her
bathroom, the "deal bragger" tells you that he/she found (through his/her
network or friends, or internet, or whatever other means) a supplier that sold
the item to him/her at an unrealistically discounted price or - say - a
plumber that did the work for a fraction of what is normal for that kind of
work.

~~~
less_penguiny
Yes, this is definitely a thing. Very modern too.

Indeed I had a whole section on _what_ people brag about (deals being one of
them, as well as "potential" or being c-r-a-z-y). I plan on releasing this
stuff soon.

------
akhilcacharya
Absolutely love this article! This one especially popped out at me

> IV Brag Gags: Avoiding Bragging At All Costs

I've met too many people that say they "go to school near Boston" or "work in
Mountain View". I don't think it's the intention, but more than the "status
anxiety" part sometimes it feels like the other party seems like the listener
isn't "worthy" of knowing, or at least _should_ know from the implication if
they were.

~~~
C4stor
Well, I'm guilty of that, but it's because I don't assume people actually know
the specific company I work at, or the university I went to. Even if the
latter is generally deemed "prestigious", in the end, only a small set of
people know it, so it's a generally useless precision.

Admittedly, if you work for a let's say a GAFA, you can probably safely assume
people know the name. But for let's say MIT, I'd very curious to know which
percentage of the us population actually know the name and attach it to
academic excellence.

~~~
akhilcacharya
> I don't assume people actually know the specific company I work at, or the
> university I went to.

When I started interning out of state I thought this as well, but then people
thought I was just obfuscating going to Duke or UNC (when in reality my actual
school was a few tiers lower). In most circumstances where this sort of thing
would come up, I would imagine even the general public would understand the
weight MIT has - hell, Tony Stark went there!

(Also, what's GAFA? Google, Apple, Facebook, Airbnb?)

~~~
C4stor
Haha, I don't know either Duke or UNC ! (but I'm french, so there's that I
suppose...)

Around there, GAFA is what you said except it's Amazon and not AirBnb

------
rdlecler1
Another reason to brag is to quickly establish credibility/confidence in noisy
markets. You want to quickly establish yourself as a peer or credible
individual so that you can get down to business without wasting time feeling
each other out. If you’re a VC it’s much better to get an email with team
credentials. Similarly if you’re a VC that wants to get into a deal you might
say who you invested in and who you coinvest with.

------
DoofusOfDeath
This article reminds me of a phenomenon I sometimes see on LinkedIn streams:
people who post about their own accomplishments, and use the headline "Humbled
to/by ..."

As a contrived example: "Humbled to be named to SomeRandomMagazine's Top 30
under 30 list".

My first thought when seeing such as headline is, like heck that person is
humbled. I can't think of any _honest_ reason to post a story about one's own
humiliation on a website focused on self-promotion such as LinkedIn.

And, perhaps I'm over-reaching here, but... Based on my assumption that such
posts are disingenuous, I hold this against whoever posts it. Not only because
it's (AFAICT) dishonest, but because it diminishes the avenues available for
persons who which to show genuine contrition as a first step towards righting
a wrong.

~~~
Digit-Al
Humble and humiliation are completely different. I think the word you are
after is humility.

Just trying to help - not attempting to brag that I'm better than you in any
way :-)

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
You're right of course. It was a mistake for me to use the word "humiliation"
in that way, especially where it would cause such confusion.

Here's my main point, reworded:

Being "humbled" is basically the opposite of being "exalted" [0]. But posting
on LinkedIn a story about being recognized as awesome by some third party is
absolutely a form of exaltation.

And IMO it's a particularly revolting form of exaltation: it's _self_
exaltation using the verbiage of self-effacement.

[0]
[https://www.dictionary.com/browse/humble](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/humble)

------
perpetualcrayon
On further exploration of this topic, I'm also noticing that maybe I could put
a certain spin on this blog post by the following logic. The age we're living
in we're seeing a lot of boundaries become far less rigid. Class and social
distinction being a few of those boundaries.

I'm not sure if this was the intention of the author, but I'd prefer to look
at this maybe as a "guide book" for etiquette in this regard. Regardless of a
speaker's intention it's also perception that is at play here. If braggarts
are more aware of the audiences they are with, and audiences are less
sensitive to these things that separate us in our life experiences, on both
ends of the spectrum this has the potential to "move the needle" to a more
comfortable place for everyone.

------
twic
I can't believe this guy wrote this whole essay just so he can brag about
having an athletic girlfriend.

~~~
less_penguiny
Caught me red-handed :D

------
rajekas
Elsewhere on Hacker News: [http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20181004-why-pride-
evolved-a...](http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20181004-why-pride-evolved-and-
its-benefits-versus-modesty)

------
sriram_malhar
I am proud to say I have never bragged in my life.

:)

~~~
aikah
> I am proud to say I have never bragged in my life.

How is that figure of speech called in English?

~~~
brianmcc
You might call it "tongue in cheek" in the UK, a statement made with no
pretense that it's true, with a gently humorous intent.

~~~
aidenn0
If anyone is wondering, "tongue-in-cheek" is also a term used in the US.

------
joncrane
Do people really brag about their salary? I've always found that announcing my
income will provoke jealousy and the expectation that I'll "invite" people to
more things.

Perhaps it's also tinged with a little bit of inner guilt that I should be
doing more for people that are less fortunate.

But I've always had a policy of "that's between me and my accountant (though
my accountant recently has been those cheap online tax filing websites)." For
example if a recruiter tries to ask me how much money I make. I have shared
with my mother and my uncle also.

What are some HN commenters' attitudes or policies towards this and how is it
working for you?

~~~
less_penguiny
Depends on where you live. I've been both in the US and in Europe, and I heard
it much more often in the states. In fact, it led to some ugly evenings, e.g.
if someone finds out someone else is getting paid way more for basically the
same job.

I also noticed that freelance stuff gets bragged about more often — how big
their last contract was closed for, or what daily rate they got from a client.

------
perpetualcrayon
I think sure there is bragging in the world, but in my experience I have come
to learn that most of it is in the head of the person judging you, or you
judging the other person's intention. I'd say probably 90% of what people
think is bragging is more likely simply misunderstanding or a difference in
one's perception and / or misreading context of either party. Or even each
party's difference in upbringing / understanding of or attention toward
certain styles of etiquette.

The other 10% is probably legitimately what I would call bragging, none of
which really tends to get under my skin.

------
dmos62
Enjoyed the article and was surprised by how exhaustive the brag type list is.
It really activated my restrospection. The pictures I could have done without,
though.

~~~
less_penguiny
Thanks for the compliment!

The idea behind the pictures isn't so much about them being useful (they
mostly aren't — I'm well aware of that). Instead it's about breaking up the
wall of text and adding visual variety so as to prevent reader fatigue.

It's a tip I picked up from reading the Star Slate Codex piece on writing:
[http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/20/writing-
advice/](http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/20/writing-advice/)

Also: HN readers != average internet readers

~~~
bramjans
Some counter-anecdata, I was rather amused by the images.

Congrats with your fascinating article, really enjoyed it!

------
onemoresoop
Haha, how many penguins for the title? What category would this classify? As
I'm sure it's the author playing a joke

~~~
less_penguiny
~4 penguins :)

------
forkerenok
In my view there is a certain amount of bragging that is warranted. And that
amount depends on the person: his/her "utility" to the people that take the
bragging, his/her "objective greatness", his/her willingness to take your own
bragging with awe, etc.

Terms quoted as they shouldn't be taken in literal meaning.

------
archiepeach
I read the entire article to my girlfriend earlier. Yes, she can read, she
just prefers to listen to the sound of my own voice #blessed. Just wanted to
say a big thank you! It prompted a lengthy discussion that went on till late.
Would love to read some more of the potential articles you’re thinking about
writing.

~~~
less_penguiny
Oh wow that's great! Did you two come up with any ideas or personal epiphanies
about bragging and status?

------
jasonmaydie
excellent read. My brother in law has been extremely successful with real
estate from his single apartment beginnings, nowadays when we meet and I ask
him "how are you" he replies "I'm blessed".

dude I know you have a lot of money, I just wanted to know if you were sick or
something. smh

------
the_cat_kittles
this is a fantastic read. i thought i was a connoisseur of bragging but this
is next level. also a little painful- it may expose your own bragging to you.
to the author: truly enjoyed this, thank you and keep writing!

------
Sharlin
In my culture people are, if anything, too humble about their achievements.

~~~
dogreborn
But there are other people who point about others achievement, everyone still
feels same.

------
the_arun
I noticed author did fantastic job on bragging about his writing skills!

------
tw1010
Why does everyone ask questions they know the answer to?

~~~
PakG1
Hey, some of us truly clueless people have no idea. Like I'd been searching
for years for an article to explain to me why people get emotional, as there
seemed to be no utility for it to me. Finally someone posted a couple to HN
that finally explained to me, and I appreciated it.

Take it from a socially clueless person, some of us don't know the answers to
these questions. :)

~~~
mehrdadn
> I'd been searching for years for an article to explain to me why people get
> emotional, as there seemed to be no utility for it to me. Finally someone
> posted a couple to HN that finally explained to me, and I appreciated it.

That sounds interesting, would you have the links handy? :)

~~~
PakG1
Articles listed in order of what I felt was most educational, useful, and
enlightening, with most educational at the top:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17493303](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17493303)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15356760](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15356760)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12885356](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12885356)

edit: Interesting, the most useful article for me is also the newest. I guess
I'd been dissatisfied with articles I found for a long time. :)

