
64-bit ARM desktop hardware? - ashitlerferad
https://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2016/07/25/aarch64-desktop-hardware/
======
_ph_
This is something I don't understand with any cpu manufacturer which isn't
x86. Why don't the manufacturers offer standard pc motherboards tweaked for
their corresponding cpu? Since the mid-90ies, they would have made nice Linux
platforms. I think, many Linux enthusiasts would be thrilled to run an
alternative CPU platform. By offering cheap desktop solutions, they would
drive the software base and interest for the more expensive enterprise
hardware. Back then it was Sparc - it was still competitive in performance
with Intel, later PowerPc, now Arm64.

~~~
drewg123
+1 to that. I feel his pain, having been there myself.

Back when DEC Alpha CPUs were still a going concern, I was one of the
maintainers of the FreeBSD/alpha port. While DEC shipped their workstations,
they were beyond the reach of OSS developers. The first "normal" Alpha board
was the API UP1000. It was basically an Alpha 21264 on an AMD motherboard & it
was totally awesome. API shipped me one before they were generally available
so I could get FreeBSD working on it. I used it as my desktop (running
FreeBSD/alpha) for years. Sadly all things Alpha were killed off in favor of
Itanium.

Here is the best description I can find of it in ~30 seconds of googling:
[http://www.thefreelibrary.com/API+Announces+Program+to+Encou...](http://www.thefreelibrary.com/API+Announces+Program+to+Encourage+ISVs+And+IHVs+To+Develop+Alpha...-a059124753)

~~~
danieldk
I fondly remember getting an AXP-PCI 33 board as a teenager, which were (at
some point) really affordable [1]. It was my first non-x86 machine.

[1]
[http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds-199909/cd1/alpha/...](http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds-199909/cd1/alpha/axpcidgc.pdf)

------
coredog64
Nvidia Shield console? 3GB of RAM, a fancy video card (with support for CUDA),
and gigabit ethernet. The guys at Hypriot have even demonstrated a working
Docker install [0]

The custom partition layout is kind of wonky, so I'd likely just by the non-
PRO version and use USB 3 and an SSD for additional storage. I'd be happier
still if Nvidia supported running other distros on it -- I wouldn't even be
mad if I could no longer use it for gaming or watching movies.

[0] [http://blog.hypriot.com/post/getting-docker-running-on-a-
hig...](http://blog.hypriot.com/post/getting-docker-running-on-a-highend-arm-
gaming-console-for-fun-and-profit/)

~~~
jamesfmilne
Or the Jetson TX1 dev kit, $599

\- 4GB RAM \- 1GB Ethernet \- 802.11ac wifi \- 16GB eMMC onboard \- m2 slot \-
PCIe Gen2 x4 slot \- SATA interface \- USB 2 and USB 3 ports

<[http://www.nvidia.com/object/jetson-tx1-dev-
kit.html>](http://www.nvidia.com/object/jetson-tx1-dev-kit.html>)

NVIDIA should really sell a case for it to make it into a NUC-style desktop.

~~~
hawski
Interesting. Honest questions: If I would buy one, can I count on driver
updates for at least 3-4 years? And after 3-4 years can I count on having Open
Source drivers not much worse than proprietary?

~~~
jamesfmilne
Linux kernel 4.5 has quite a lot of changes to support the SoC on the Tegra X1
in the mainline kernel.

[http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1601.2/04595.html](http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1601.2/04595.html)

There is basic GPU support via Nouveau, though for any serious
OpenGL/Vulkan/CUDA or video stuff you'd want to use the NVIDIA proprietary
drivers, which are very good on Linux.

~~~
wolfgke
> There is basic GPU support via Nouveau, though for any serious
> OpenGL/Vulkan/CUDA or video stuff you'd want to use the NVIDIA proprietary
> drivers, which are very good on Linux.

And for how long will NVidia be providing support for the driver?

------
mindcrime
I've felt this same frustration with POWER for what feels like forever. I'd
love to build and run a POWER desktop system, but traditionally there hasn't
been a readily available, standard form-factor, somewhat inexpensive
motherboard that you could just order up from Tyan or whoever. On and off over
the years there's been a lot of talk about how this company or that was going
to build a standard ATX motherboard for POWER cpu's, but they seem to never
materialize, or if they do, they're insanely expensive, or _something_ which
keeps the whole idea just out of reach.

This most recent push for openness in the POWER world might actually change
that though. Tyan does have a kinda-sorta not-too-expensive POWER8 based
server available, and there was a document floating around a while back
listing all the companies who were committing to build machines, motherboards,
etc. based on POWER8. As I recall, there were a lot of names on the list,
which is encouraging.

But still... why can't we hit up NewEgg and order an ATX motherboard, a CPU
and some RAM for, say, $1000.00 or less? _sigh_

~~~
kbradero
I think nintendo wii has a power cpu and you can run linux on it !

~~~
TD-Linux
The big limitation is that you only get 96MB of RAM. But still, it's a pretty
reasonable choice if you want a big-endian test system on the cheap.

~~~
justincormack
Pretty much all ARM boards will run big endian, although not sure Linux has
armeb distros much (NetBSD works).

------
nextos
I got interested in ARM desktop & laptop hardware while I was looking for more
open solutions. Remarkably, the only modern hardware that is truly open top-
down, including firmware, are cheap Rockchip Chromebooks [1].

I'm also looking forward to POWER offerings, which might be more performant
and thus suitable as workstations [2].

[1]
[https://libreboot.org/docs/hcl/c201.html](https://libreboot.org/docs/hcl/c201.html)

[2]
[https://www.raptorengineering.com/TALOS/prerelease.php](https://www.raptorengineering.com/TALOS/prerelease.php)

~~~
mwcampbell
This is still 32-bit only, but you might be interested in the EOMA68 modular
computing hardware campaign on Crowd Supply. [1] Since it's modular, at least
we can potentially have a 64-bit computer card later, while re-using the
micro-desktop and laptop housing.

[1]: [https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-
desktop](https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop)

~~~
TD-Linux
Or the Novena, also on CrowdSupply [1]. It's the closest to a "real" ARM
computer as I've found. It has 4GB of RAM, SATA, and all the peripherals you'd
expect for a laptop or low profile desktop. I've used it to design PCBs in
KiCAD - second generation open hardware :)

Though again, it's only 32bit, and while that works great for most purposes,
it still leaves the OP's point valid. (I have one of the early 64-bit 8-core
hikey 96boards mentioned, and I'd take the Novena over it any day)

[1] [https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-
kosagi/novena](https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena)

------
throw2016
Those who have tried the Odroid C2 will not fail to be impressed by how
delightfully close it is to offering a significant desktop experience for a
$40 device. It's nearly unbelievable that this tiny, portable device sips
powers and can run accelerated videos upto 4k, runs 64 bit Ubuntu Mate and
even 720p Youtube on Chromium. And it could be more but for ARM.

The potential for disruption is massive and yet here is ARM dragging its feet
with it's increasingly inexplicable and extremely closed nature. Things only
work on Android, the GPU especially is a big problem, and given Android runs
the Linux kernel I am sure Arm and Google are having a laugh at the point of
open source.

Most current mid to high end ARM SOCs and those coming make Intel's pricing
and value look extremely questionable. These SOCs are a fraction of the price
Intel demands. Enough to raise doubts about the future of the platform beyond
high end gaming and GPU use cases. And with Vulcan even that is up in the air.

The iPad Pro benches close the the Macbook. The A72 SOCs are at 1500 single
core and 4000-5000 multicore on Geekbench.

This is real. Yet ARM for reasons best known to them either do not see the
potential or do not want to pursue it, giving Intel a breather. Now with
Softbank acquiring ARM at this critical juncture its anyone's guess where this
goes.

------
Animats
There's this little desktop box, sold as a development system [1]:

    
    
        AMD Opteron A1100 series processor
        4 x 64-bit ARM Cortex A57 Cores
        2 x RDIMM with 8GB DDR4 DRAM
        1 x 1GBase-T Ethernet
        2 x USB 3.0 ports
        2 x SATA 3.0 ports
        1 x 1TB HDD
        $599
    

(Pre-Order Now – Delivery July) - not good seeing that on July 25th.

No graphics, though. It's really a server board in a desktop package.

There are lots of small boards which are really tablet-type systems-on-a-chip
where the connections from the chip were brought out to connectors. (That's
what a Raspberry Pi is.) But they don't usually have PCI or SATA interfaces,
so disk I/O capability is limited. There are good embedded 32-bit ARM boards,
but the embedded world isn't going 64-bit yet.

Everybody seems to assume you're going to cross-compile and remote debug for
embedded and server work. QNX doesn't even self-host any more. (I rather liked
having a QNX desktop.)

[1]
[https://shop.softiron.co.uk/product/overdrive-1000/](https://shop.softiron.co.uk/product/overdrive-1000/)

~~~
Animats
Site now reads "Pre-Order Now – Delivery August". Even less good.

------
lazyjones
What's wrong with the Gigabyte MP30-AR0?
[http://b2b.gigabyte.com/products/product-
page.aspx?pid=5422#...](http://b2b.gigabyte.com/products/product-
page.aspx?pid=5422#ov)

It's sold as a server board in the $1000 range, but seems to fit the bill as
far as the points in the blog article are concerned.

~~~
tsuraan
I've been shopping for a low-power server board, and I absolutely want that
one. The problem is, nobody seems to sell it. I can't find any notice that
it's been discontinued, but every reseller that google's given me has said
that the board is out of stock (I think I found one in Spain, actually, but
I'd rather order from somewhere in NA). Do you know where a person can
actually buy that board?

~~~
rwmj
They are definitely available in the EU. I got one from xcase.co.uk. Note
there is a slightly newer variant now (MP30-AR1), although it still uses the
X-gene 1.

If I were you I'd wait a bit for the Cavium-based Gigabyte boards. I have
pricing for these which unfortunately I'm not permitted to reveal, but it will
be very competitive.

The Caviums have lots of cores (48 / socket), but each core is pretty slow,
like an Intel Atom. Caviums have tons of fast I/O. The challenge is to make
software which can deal with this, since it's quite unlike Intel hardware
(few, fast cores, slow I/O).

~~~
tsuraan
I feel like this might be going off topic, and maybe you can't discuss the
specifics anyhow, but do you mean very competitive with the existing AR0/AR1
board pricing? The only Cavium-based systems I'm seeing are the full server
machines, and those are listing 3 40Gbps and 4 10Gbps ethernet ports, plus the
rest. That board can't possibly come in anywhere near $1000, can it? I'll be
keeping my eyes open for sure, but I'm also eager to learn more :)

------
gravypod
I'd love a system that fits the form factor of my desktop motherboard but
supports an arm chipset.

My main system mother board is a little... strange from the normal. I've build
my system around being 100% silent and low power while still having enough
juice to run some IDEs and be productive.

My current mobo is from ASRock and has an interesting feature [0]. It's got
support to use a laptop charger as a PSU built into the board.

If there was a low power, passive, ARM system for a desktop like this I'd
switch. This is just the lowest power and quietest build I could think of
currently. (Only problem is no MSATA :()

[0] -
[http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/AM1H-ITX/](http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/AM1H-ITX/)

------
bluedino
Whatever happened to the Acorn RISC PC's from the mid/late 90's?

I remember guys in the UK on USENET with the 'StrongARM...' in their
signatures.

~~~
Symbiote
Acorn seemed to fail to advertise their products outside the education market,
which rapidly dried up as education shifted to teaching Microsoft Word on
cheap PCs.

The final workstation system was cancelled in 1998 [1], ARM spun off as a
separate company, and the remaining part of Acorn made set-top boxes for
digital TV. It was then bought by Broadcom. [2]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(computer)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_\(computer\))

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Computers#1998.E2.80.932...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Computers#1998.E2.80.932000:_Element_14)

~~~
gaius
When you consider how shit the RM Nimbus was, I refuse to believe Acorn lost
on technical merit, or even on price/performance.

~~~
rwmj
RM made some truly shockingly bad computers. But they had (have?) very good
contacts at high level in government.

~~~
scholia
RM supported PCs, and PCs were what schools wanted. Also, the hardware was
only a part of the whole RM infrastructure.

Considering the UK government subsidized the cost of Acorn computers in
schools, and considering it got massive amounts of free BBC advertising for
the Acorn platform, I think you need more than a conspiracy theory to account
for RM's success and Acorn's failure.

~~~
gaius
Not true. In fact Acorn paid the BBC a commission on every machine sold for
use of the logo.

And the RM infrastructure was just as shitty as their hardware. If people were
desperate for PC compatible, why was everything on the Nimbus non-standard?
They even used the 80186 that no-one else did and you had to emulate an 8086
on it to run any third party software!

~~~
scholia
Which bit is not true? It's certainly true that the UK government subsidized
the cost of computers in schools, and Acorn got the largest benefit from that
scheme.

 _> In fact Acorn paid the BBC a commission on every machine sold for use of
the logo._

Citation? How did it compare with the UK government paying half the cost of a
BBC B?

The 80186-based Nimbus wasn't PC standard and wasn't particularly good (yes, I
did use one), but RM did move to standard PCs.

 _> And the RM infrastructure was just as shitty as their hardware._

In your opinion. But at least it had one.

------
slinger
Just out of curiosity, what are the advantages of using ARM on a desktop over
a x86-64 architecture for an end-user? Or it is just to enable developers
targeting server softwares to buy a less expensive hardware? I can see the
advantages of using it on servers and IoT though.

------
intrasight
There the NVIDIA Jetson TK1 and TX1. An excellent desktop platform IMHO. When
the TK1 came out, you could get one free by telling them what you planned to
do with it.

Unfortunately they tripled the price from the TK1 ($200) to the TX1 ($600).
You can get a TK1 on ebay for ~$150.

This thing is much faster than the million dollar supercomputer I used in
college ;)

~~~
fit2rule
This thing looks pretty nice, but the catch of course, is that you need all
the expansion boards as well, so the costs go way up. Plus, there's the whole
availability thing .. I'd love to hear from someone who has one and can tell
us what its like as a machine.

I'm in the camp of those who would like to have a smart Linux workstation with
modern peripherals and not be x86, just for the kicks of it .. so actually,
the TX1 seems like it might be a pretty viable investment.

~~~
jfb
I have a TK1; it's perfectly usable as a desktop machine. I don't use it
because I don't like Ubuntu and the project I was using it for has finished,
but plug a SSD into it and it works a treat.

~~~
fit2rule
Would you consider selling it, then?

~~~
jfb
Oh, sorry, missed this. Sure. Send me an email to the listed address if you're
still interested.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
Maybe Apple might switch from Intel to ARM for the Mac at some point. They've
switched architecture twice before (68k to PowerPC, PowerPC to Intel), they
could do it again. I'm sure they'd relish the chance to design their own
desktop CPUs, not just ones for mobile devices.

~~~
digi_owl
more likely that they will retire the whole MacOS line at that point. Not sure
if they have alienated enough of the media production market to do so though.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Why would ARM be the death of macOS? If it can run on Intel, PowerPC and 68k,
what's another processor transition?

And why would that “alienate the media production market”? Apple could build a
beefy ARM machine if they needed.

------
picken_001
SoftIron have a 'SoftIron 1000' for $599

[http://softiron.co.uk/products/](http://softiron.co.uk/products/)

------
cptskippy
Did ARM ever get a formalized platform? I remember reading that one of the
major issues with adoption of ARM was that there wasn't a common platform for
the CPU to interface with external devices. It was all custom and proprietary
which is fine for embedded systems but not so good for desktops or consumer
grade PCs.

Is that no longer the case?

~~~
ashitlerferad
It did but only for servers:

[http://www.arm.com/about/newsroom/arm-ecosystem-
collaborates...](http://www.arm.com/about/newsroom/arm-ecosystem-collaborates-
to-deliver-initial-server-platform-standard.php)

~~~
cptskippy
So is that perhaps the reason why there has been little adoption or investment
from OEMs into producing standardized boards?

~~~
rwmj
Yes, sort of. The other problem, shared with 32 bit ARM, is that there are
billions of shitty Android chips made each year, and it's very easy to take
one of these, slap it into a development board, add a proprietary kernel with
random blobs, and sell it for $50.

These crowd out properly designed server hardware, or anything that cares
about freedom, upstream Linux, maintainability, virtualization, etc.

------
leoc
How about the Gigabyte MP30-AR0, apparently actually available to consumers
through this one retailer?: [https://www.xcase.co.uk/products/gigabyte-
mp30-ar0-with-appl...](https://www.xcase.co.uk/products/gigabyte-
mp30-ar0-with-appliedmicro-x-gene1-processor) It seems Richard WM Jones has
got RHEL running on it: [https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2016/03/08/gigabyte-
mp30-ar0-flas...](https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2016/03/08/gigabyte-
mp30-ar0-flashing-uefi/)

------
mininodes
Aside from the Overdrive 1000 as already mentioned by others:
[http://softiron.co.uk/products/](http://softiron.co.uk/products/), there is
the LeMaker Cello forthcoming (which was supposed to have already shipped
but...) available for pre-order here:
[http://www.lenovator.com/product/103.html](http://www.lenovator.com/product/103.html)

------
dmm
Not loading for me, here's the google cache:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FbgwL1...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FbgwL1aC8DcJ:https://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2016/07/25/aarch64-desktop-
hardware/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

~~~
okket
Loads fine for me, just a moment ago. Try:

[http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/marcin.juszkiewicz.co...](http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl)

------
mrmondo
I have a nvidia shield just sitting around (because to be honest it's pretty
useless as a console / with android on it), I've been considering looking up
to see if it can run Fedora / CentOS's ARM port for some time. This might just
be the push over the edge I need...

------
sitkack
Why not make a 32 core arm chip with an amd pin out so it can fit into
existing low cost motherboards ?

------
markokrajnc
Just buy Raspberry Pi 3 and you will have 64-bit ARM desktop hardware...

~~~
choudanu4
The raspberry pi 3 only runs in 32-bit mode right now [1]. There is no 64-bit
kernel for it currently.

[1]: [https://www.linux.com/news/raspberry-pi-3-still-
essentially-...](https://www.linux.com/news/raspberry-pi-3-still-
essentially-32-bit-sbc-now)

~~~
markokrajnc
The raspberry pi 3 runs in 32 and 64 mode. There is no >>LINUX<< 64-bit kernel
for it currently...

~~~
vetinari
Exactly which OS runs on rpi3 in 64-bit mode? Because Windows 10 and RiscOS
ain't it.

~~~
markokrajnc
Author is asking for 64-bit ARM hardware, not software...

~~~
vetinari
You, however, were claiming, that rpi3 does run in 64-bit mode, just not with
linux:

> The raspberry pi 3 runs in 32 and 64 mode. There is no >>LINUX<< 64-bit
> kernel for it currently...

To my knowledge, rpi3 has 64-bit CPU, but _all_ operating systems and
bootloaders available run only in 32-bit mode, no exceptions. That means that
rpi3 in future theoretically can run in 64-bit mode, but certainly does not
today.

~~~
rasz_pl
Pee bootloader runs on the gpu, so that doesnt matter much. Current bootloader
can bootstrap ARM in 64bit mode, as is evidenced by freebsd port and
[https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1379...](https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=137963)
(all but the gpu works)

