
Wolf Pups That Play Fetch - Hooke
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/science/wolves-fetch-dogs-domestication.html
======
philwelch
I always figured that the “playing fetch” behavior was just the dog (or wolf,
I suppose) figuring out that it gets to chase the thing again if it brings it
back to the thrower. If you teach a dog to play fetch, it has no problem
instinctively chasing the thing. It’s the bringing it back that has to be
trained. But once the dog gives it back, it suddenly learns that it gets to
chase the thing again, which is fun and rewarding. Eventually you might be
minding your own business but as soon as the dog finds the ball, it will bring
it to you. The dog plays fetch because you’re going to throw the ball, not
because you already did throw it.

~~~
vegardx
I did search and rescue training with dogs in the army and we always had to
start things off with a toy to get the dogs "into it", even in "sharp"
situations. But once they were started everything was like a game for them,
they'd run ("play") until they couldn't anymore. You'd have to stop them.

If you're ever in a SAR situation and a dog finds you, you should be prepared
for a little rough treatment from it. It'll likely jump all over you, be up in
your face and all that. It's just looking for the toy, and when it find out
you don't have it, it'll move on, calm down or go back to the owner. And it'll
bark a lot. Like a lot. It's not out of anger or anything, it's just what it
has been told to do when it thinks it has found what it was supposed to find.
I've had a dog tear my entire goretex uniform to pieces looking for the toy
when we were both trapped deep under snow. Good times!

~~~
Lewton
What would happen if you coincidentally had a dog toy on you?

Maybe that’d be good for avoiding accidental mangling, but if it means it
skips the barking and alerting step then maybe it’s not the best idea

~~~
Bartweiss
For the most part, SAR dogs (and similar working dogs) are trained to view
specific toys as incredibly high-value. For whatever play they really enjoy -
fetch, tug-of-war, etc - they'll have a particular toy which only comes out in
connection with "work" and always heralds praise and a play session with their
trainer. Since SAR breeds are smart, high energy, and a bit intense, their
reaction to that toy/event can be startlingly strong.

The goal is essentially to avoid this issue: a dog toy is unlikely, but maybe
the subject has a peanut butter bar in their pocket, and that shouldn't derail
the rescue. So ideally the desire for the work reward will outweigh basically
anything found _during_ work (squirrels, food, other toys, or even bad stimuli
like loud noises), even if those things would be awesome to the dog when
they're not "on the job".

------
Sharlin
It’s interesting that many cats, too, play fetch completely intuitively, no
training required.

~~~
nabnob
My cat is weirdly smart and he will play fetch. He's really good at figuring
out whatever new "game" I'm trying to play with him. Some more examples of his
social intelligence:

\- He will play tricks on me. He's learned to paw at the patio door to show
that he wants to be let outside. If I'm standing outside and he's inside the
patio door, he will paw at the door as if he wants to be let out, and then run
away as soon as I open the door. He will do this over and over and turn it
into a game.

\- He's VERY vocal and has some understanding of how a conversation works - I
talk, then you talk. I only realized this because he hates car rides, and this
is the only time he interrupts me.

\- He's really good at understanding tone and body language, so usually he can
figure out what I'm trying to tell him to do, even if it's a new situation
using new words. For example, I was outside while he was playing, and a
neighbor walked up to say hello. I told him "it's ok, you can go say hi" and
he walked up to her and sniffed her hand.

It's really weird, I knew cats were intelligent but I had no idea until I got
this cat.

------
timeattack
Interestingly, my cat started to bring pieces of her food to me so I can throw
it and she can pretend it's live pray she is catching. This behavior emerged
suddenly out of nowhere without prior training.

I bet many pet owners can share same anecdotal evidence of certain level of
social intelligence which, I think, is not widely accepted in scientific
community.

------
natmaka
Maybe related to "Belyayev's Fox Experiment":
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22143748](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22143748)

------
SeekingMeaning
Non-paywall: [http://archive.ph/5OBeO](http://archive.ph/5OBeO)

~~~
big_chungus
Interesting question here: I can resolve archive.ph just fine, but
archive.today doesn't work due to the ongoing issus with Cloudflare DNS
(1.1.1.1). Anyone know why?

~~~
bmn__
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828317](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828317)

------
briefcomment
I'm going to guess that the "fetch" reflex may have its roots in wolves
chasing after bones humans around a campfire may have tossed to sate the
wolves' appetites and keep them at bay.

Maybe bringing the bones back was a way of "nicely" letting humans know that
more bones would be appreciated/required to keep living.

You often see wolves circle around humans around a fire in movies and books.

Maybe it's a symbiotic relationship like a remora/shark, or even parasitic
like an oxpicker/large mammal.

*edit - Some people are very liberal with downvotes, especially for lighthearted conjecture that is not obviously wrong or intellectually misleading. Got any better ideas?

~~~
heyitsguay
You're probably being downvoted for telling a just so story:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-
so_story](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-so_story) . It's a particularly
pernicious trap when trying to understand behavior and evolution!

~~~
FriendlyNormie
I really hope “just-so story” isn’t going to be the new thought-terminating
cliché we see everywhere.

~~~
posterboy
The just-so story is itself thought-terminating, insofar it presents a
conjecture as _that 's just what it is_ (it's just so), without asking the
right questions to connect to.

~~~
vonmoltke
The story itself is not the thought-terminating cliche, labelling it as such
(especially with no attempt to engage or correct the poster of it) is.

