
Attempts to Censor AntiPolygraph.org - giles_corey
https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2019/06/28/pseudoscientist-dr-charles-humble-attempts-to-censor-antipolygraph-org/
======
krilly
In the UK we have a long running 'institution' called the Jeremy Kyle show. I
believe it is solar to the Jerry Springer show in the US? Basically, low SES
people go on and argue about who cheated on who and at the end get either a
lie detector or paternity test.

The show was recently cancelled because someone who was on the show committed
suicide. This was clearly because of a false lie detector result which said he
cheated on his partner.

In all the media frenzy around the incident, I didn't see a single source
mention that lie detectors are unproven bullshit. I don't understand how
otherwise normal people believe we live in a world where reliable lie
detectors exist (the effects of this would of course be world changing).

~~~
rightbyte
"Lie detectors" are in practice a measurement of nervousity, right?

"Oh, his heart rate jumped when I asked what the end score was in the game he
said he saw in his home at the time of the murder even though he gave the
correct score maybe he guessed."

~~~
aasasd
In one of Cory Doctorow's books, the trick to cheat a lie detector is said to
be to clench and unclench the anus repeatedly for several minutes (in advance
before the test). Purportedly, this agitates the nervous system so the
measurements hike up, and on this background your legitimate discomposure will
look like smooth sailing. The anus is probably chosen just for the
inconspicuousness.

Dunno how true this is and haven't heard of this trick elsewhere, though
admittedly I haven't researched the topic. Other techniques in the ‘Little
Brother’ books are real, apart from two or three that are doubtful to me.

~~~
Fjolsvith
In the US, they use a sensor pad the subject sits on to detect such attempts
to modify the results.

~~~
EForEndeavour
I wonder if vividly picturing a cavalcade of ultraviolent mental images is
enough to disrupt the test.

~~~
Fjolsvith
Unfortunately, disrupting the test is the same as failing it. Typically,
subjects are expected to pass it to avoid negative consequences.

I once went through a polygraph and used my meditative breathing techniques to
calm my mind, and failed the test because I was "controlling my breath".

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
I mostly belly breathe and have little upper chest expansion at rest. This
caused some consternation during my test.

------
hackermailman
The polygraph is just an interrogation prop, like a cop holding a thick file
of empty papers disputing your answers during interrogation "But we have a
witness statement that says you were in the building at the time". The random
squiggles and wires attached to you are designed to stress you into screwing
up your alibi/story and it's still effective enough they keep using it because
people believe it actually works. If you try and defeat a fake prop by
clenching muscles or some silly breathing techniques you've already lost
because you believe it's real in the first place, much like how a voodoo curse
works on those who actually believe and start to see the curse manifesting
everywhere. It's job has been completed, to distract and stress you enough in
hopes you begin to contradict your previous statements.

The interrogators will always have props and fake analysis, like a "chair
sensor" that can detect you trying to defeat the machine, or eye movement
sensor, face reading 'expert', blood patterns they claim disputes your
statements, a small wand with decorative LEDs and wires they claim can read
chemical traces from your clothing as they wave it around and make a concerned
face looking at a switched off laptop screen afterwards, or a fake phone on
the desk "We've just learned your accomplice has been arrested and is in the
next room making a deal, are you sure you don't want to change your story?".
The Chicago Police are famous for arresting groups of people, and taking
photos of one of them signing some kind of property release waiver, then
presenting the photos to the other suspects claiming they have been snitched
on.

The most critical part of the interrogation with a polygraph is in the middle
of the test where they switch off the machine and then continue to interrogate
you "Let's just talk freely". Classic interrogation tricks (that still work),
nothing more.

------
otakucode
The utility of "lie detectors", which I personally imagine most law
enforcement people understand, is as a tool of coercion and deception. It's
not so much that they believe the devices actually function how they are
claimed to, but that it gives the officers some 'legitimate' excuse to
prosecute people based upon the intuition of the officer. It's not an accident
that all of these systems require a human being to look at whatever readings
are taken and "interpret" them. Any real system would include no such feature
at all, because putting a human in the loop does nothing but invalidate
whatever determination is made by opening up the inevitability of human error.
At the end of the day, the verdict of a lie detector is nothing more than "the
examiner has a gut hunch the person is lying/telling the truth" \+ a little
bit of extra credibility in the eyes of the uneducated.

~~~
bitwize
I've heard tales of police departments using "lie detectors" which consisted
of a colander placed upon the head of the subject, connected by non-functional
wires to a photocopier in which was placed a piece of paper with the words
"You're Lying" printed on it.

~~~
stevekemp
That sounds similar to the opening scene from series five of The Wire:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ5aIvjNgao](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ5aIvjNgao)

There they queue up a photocopier with "true", "true", and "false" prior to
asking questions.

------
plink
It’s amazing how Dr. Humble of the NITV buoys his reputation on his title
which he has publicly admitted was awarded as an honorific for six hours of
Bible study at an unaccredited college.

~~~
stevesimmons
Calling himself "Dr Humble" is somewhat ironic...

------
DonHopkins
Does the technique of clenching your butt hole actually work to beat a
polygraph? (As described in my favorite "The Americans" season 2 episode 7,
"Arpanet".) Does it also help to visualize someone you love at the same time?
;)

If it actually works, the photo of Charles Wayne Humble in the article looks
like he could lie through his teeth while passing a polygraph exam with flying
colors!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpanet_(The_Americans)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpanet_\(The_Americans\))

After consulting with Arkady and Oleg, and with the promise of coaching from
Oleg, Nina tells Stan that she will take the FBI's polygraph test. Oleg
suggests a few techniques including that she visualize him in the room as well
as clenching her anus.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3OMSMq9zPA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3OMSMq9zPA)

The Americans Season 2 Episode 7 "Arpanet" Review: "I like when I learn
something from an episode, and now I know ..." "If you're having to do a
polygraph, squeeze your anus."

[https://tv.avclub.com/the-americans-
arpanet-1798180091](https://tv.avclub.com/the-americans-arpanet-1798180091)

(One of the ways to beat a polygraph turns out to be clenching one’s anus.
This show is full of helpful hints.)

[https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a28316/spy-on-
the-a...](https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a28316/spy-on-the-
americans/)

ESQ: The show featured Nina learning to beat and eventually beating a
polygraph. How easy is it to do that?

PE: We have a number of real-world instances. The Aldrich Ames case. He went
through the polygraph twice, after he went to work for the Soviets.
Administering a polygraph is an art, not a science. That's why it's not
admitted in court. People have claimed to have had training to beat the
polygraph. Everything from tightening your sphincter to breathing a certain
way, and so forth.

ESQ: Speaking of sphincters, the trick she's told is "squeeze your anus." Is
that a thing?

PE: I can't confirm. [Laughs] I took several polygraphs. Taking them is a
standard thing in the intelligence life.

~~~
ap_org
Constricting one's anus can work as a polygraph countermeasure provided that
it is done timely with the asking of the "control" questions. This
countermeasure so concerns polygraph operators that all federal polygraphers
are required to use a seat pad that purports to detect such activity.

Alternative countermeasures include mental activity (such as thinking exciting
thoughts, or doing math in one's head) and tongue-biting.

For more on polygraph countermeasures, see Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie
Detector:

[https://antipolygraph.org/pubs.shtml](https://antipolygraph.org/pubs.shtml)

~~~
DonHopkins
I'd love to be the government contractor providing all the expensive anal
clenching divination seat pads.

Sounds like that would be a great input device for Affective Computing,
Sentiment Analysis, and Targeted Ad Analytics. Maybe Facebook will make one to
go with the Oculus some day.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentiment_analysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentiment_analysis)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affective_computing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affective_computing)

------
aasasd
I'm just tickled by the number of layers of opposition in this title.

(“Pseudoscientist Attempts to Censor Anti-Lie Detector Website,” in case it
gets changed later.)

~~~
EForEndeavour
It's the grammatical equivalent of stepping through all of the captures and
counter-captures poised to begin at a critical piece in a chess game and
trying to determine who'll come out on top.

------
ex3xu
Here's some previous popular HN threads about debunking or beating lie
detector tests:

(2009) antipolygraph.org (first HN submission) - NSA polygraph experiences:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=428489](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=428489)

(2013) WaPo - Man accused of teaching anti-polygraph techniques faces prison
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6308878](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6308878)

(2015) NYT - How to beat a polygraph:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9481385](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9481385)

(2018) Gizmodo - Use of AI lie detector in EU:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18351733](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18351733)

(2018) antipolygraph.org - CIA Analyst on polygraph BS:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18155548](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18155548)

(2018) antipolygraph.org - book on how to beat polygraphs:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18431683](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18431683)

I wanted to provided the pro-polygraph side of the argument but literally
could not find any popular threads in support of that case. Please correct me
if anyone can find credible pro polygraph positions.

------
olalonde
Title should be changed to "Pseudoscientist Attempts to Censor Anti Polygraph
Website" (for a moment I read "anti-lie detector" as "detector that prevents
people from lying").

------
kristiandupont
Intuitively, it seems to obvious to me that any "lie detector" that is
basically a stress meter (be it GSR, heart rate monitoring or even voice
analysis) will have a bit of bit of value in that someone who is lying is
likely to have a response, but at the same time this could just as likely be
from anxiety of being falsely accused. I don't see how it could possibly be
considered meaningful in any way.

~~~
technothrasher
They of course aren't very accurate, and really shouldn't be relied upon in
anything more critical than daytime television.

But you can use techniques to attempt to make them more revealing. The first
obvious one is to simply convince people they work, and then use them as a
persuasion technique. "Look, do you want to just come clean here or are we
going to have to bring out the polygraph?"

The second technique you can use is to ask a series of alternate fact
questions and look for response. "Did the murder happen at five o'clock? Did
it happen at six o'clock? Did it happen at eight o'clock?" Somebody who is
doesn't know the answer isn't going to be any more nervous at any of those
questions in particular, but someone who does is often going to have a nervous
spike as, or just before, the correct question is asked.

~~~
gbrown
> Somebody who is doesn't know the answer isn't going to be any more nervous
> at any of those questions in particular, but someone who does is often going
> to have a nervous spike as, or just before, the correct question is asked.

... or once they realize thats the intent of the questions, or when the
questioner changes their tone of voice subconsciously, or when they have an
intrusive thought etc.

