
Maglev Train Seen Making Washington-to-Baltimore Trip at 311 MPH - forrest_t
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-10-21/washington-baltimore-15-minute-trip-pushed-in-maglev-plan.html
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caractacus
"Seen" making? I think they mean "imagined" or "might make" or "in the wild
imaginations of someone looking for funding".

~~~
Luc
'To imagine as possible' is a common meaning of 'see'. It's obviously not
'perceive with the eye' in this case.

Definition 3d here: [http://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/see](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/see)

~~~
caractacus
I understand the possible use of 'seen' in the headline but in this context it
would be taken by most readers as 'observed'. Sloppy sub-editing at best.

~~~
th0br0
Not really... it's just a "form" of the subjunctive... "Maglev train _could
be_/_would be_ seen making ..." You can leave the would/could be out from a
stylistic point of view imho, but you normally don't do that out of context
(as it is unfortunately done here)....

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incision
This impresses me as someone chasing Federal funds and trying to PoC maglev in
the US, not a solution to any real problem.

 _> 'A maglev train may help ease traffic that has made roads in Maryland’s
Montgomery County, which lies between Washington and Baltimore, the fourth-
most-congested in the country, according to digital-mapping company TomTom NV.
(TOM2) Washington ranks seventh.'_

Not really.

Prince Georges, Anne Arundel and Howard lie between Baltimore and DC, hence
the existing MARC lines running through them [1]. Any new lines would
undoubtedly follow those paths.

It's not DC <-> Baltimore that's miserable it's Northern VA <-> North / East
DC suburbs. Transit in the DC area is built around bringing people in and out
of DC, not from suburb to suburb.

People who don't take MARC for the DC <-> Baltimore now aren't doing it for
time, they're doing it because they don't want to ride the MARC, deal with the
bottleneck of Union Station then ride two Metro trains and a bus to get to
work in VA. Swapping MARC for Maglev won't change that, but it will cost a lot
of money.

Improving the existing infrastructure and/or figuring out how to draw more
business into DC proper would be a better use of any funds.

1:
[http://mta.maryland.gov/sites/default/files/MARCsystemmap.JP...](http://mta.maryland.gov/sites/default/files/MARCsystemmap.JPG)

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freshyill
I don't think there is now, or will be anytime in the foreseeable future, the
demand for 300mph service between DC and Baltimore. The only possible driver
for this would be for affordable housing. Home prices in and around DC are
exorbitant, but they are relatively affordable around Baltimore. So this would
have to be a 300 mph commuter train. And commuter trains make a lot of stops,
meaning it wouldn't approach anything close to that speed.

Bullet trains would only make sense over long distances. This won't happen.
What we need is more commuter rail capacity, and more lines, so the trains can
make fewer, faster stops. We need to move more people more efficiently, not
just faster.

~~~
ecspike
A Maglev train would be more logical between San Jose and LA.

~~~
waterlesscloud
Los Angeles and Las Vegas makes a great deal of sense too, and would be a
shorter (and MUCH cheaper) route.

~~~
valarauca1
It would make sense it would also be very diffuclt. Maglev's expect flat and
straight.

The Baker Grade outside of Baker (small town with the Greek Resutrant and
literally nothing else, you've ate their if you went to death valley). Is one
of the stepest grades in the nation, rising ~6,000ft in ~19 miles. Overall the
course will drop you as low as 100ft above sea level, and see you rise to
6,400ft. With minor peaks and vallies dropping as low as 500ft, rising back to
4,000ft.

Source: A lot of automakers vet transmission designs on that highway.

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mnw21cam
Surely the point of using a super-fast transport method is in order to
traverse long distances. Say for example that the 40 mile journey could be
done by a 60mph train in 40 minutes, whereas this new train will take 15
minutes. That's only a saving of 25 minutes. If the train is only running once
every half an hour or once an hour, people will end up waiting around for a
train for longer than sitting in it.

Run this over a 400 mile journey, and yes I'd say it was worth it.

~~~
fennecfoxen
There's already a super-high-speed transit route between two major cities
about 400 miles apart (e.g. Washington and Boston). It's called an airplane --
takes about 75 minutes, plus airport-related overhead on either end. _This_ is
the would-be 400-mile maglev's competition, not existing train service.

And yes, I'm sure the maglev would be more convenient and nicer and otherwise
objectively Better in a variety of ways, but the capital expenditures needed
to make these incremental gains happen is huge.

> If the train is only running once every half an hour or once an hour, people
> will end up waiting around for a train for longer than sitting in it.

No, people don't generally treat commuter trains the same way that they treat
subway services and the like. They try to show up for a specific train at a
specific time.

~~~
mnw21cam
> No, people don't generally treat commuter trains the same way that they
> treat subway services and the like. They try to show up for a specific train
> at a specific time.

If they come in on a connecting service, they sometimes don't have a choice.

Agreed about the airplane, although airport-related overhead is usually quite
a bit more than train station-related overhead.

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brianbreslin
Wouldn't super high speed make more sense over long distance? Could you not
solve lots of the yield issues by optimizing express trains into the mix for
commuter rail? So that you could reduce BWI-DC transit by 15 minutes perhaps,
but really just add a few sections of secondary standard tracks?

$10B seems exhorbitant for a 40 mile stretch of track + trains etc.

~~~
incision
_> '$10B seems exhorbitant for a 40 mile stretch of track + trains etc.'_

Perhaps, but it's right on par with the cost of the recent Metro extension
which cost $6.8B for an 11.6 mile extension running on existing tech.

Successfully building an entirely new Maglev line for 'only' $10B would be a
steal relatively speaking, but I don't see that happening.

More likely, I'd expect the planners want Government buy-in because they
recognize how susceptible the Government is to chasing sunk costs and covering
all the difference when the project predictably balloons to 5x what was
proposed.

1:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Line_(Washington_Metro)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Line_\(Washington_Metro\))

~~~
mikeash
The Silver Line is pretty expensive for what it is, but I think you're
overstating it. If I understand the Wikipedia page correctly, the $6.8 billion
figure is for the full 23 mile extension, not just the 11.6 miles built so
far. That cost also includes constructing all of the new stations. The urban
nature of the line also means a substantial elevated section and a tunnel,
both of which will increase costs quite a bit compared to an inter-city line.

Given that the Silver Line is proving extremely useful by finally hooking up
Tysons Corner, a major city center, to the DC metro system, and given the
general uselessness of shaving a few minutes off the existing Baltimore-DC
routes, I'd hardly call $10 billion for a maglev line a "steal".

~~~
incision
_> "The Silver Line is pretty expensive for what it is, but I think you're
overstating it. If I understand the Wikipedia page correctly, the $6.8 billion
figure is for the full 23 mile extension, not just the 11.6 miles built so
far."_

You're right, I did mistate the length.

In general though, I think you're misunderstanding my thrust here. You're
talking about value, I don't think this project is a good value at all, quite
the opposite [1].

I'm just thinking about engineering and construction...

The Silver Line is a demonstration that building 23 miles of 45 mph commuter
rail line costs at least $6.8B despite the benefit the benefit of 40 years,
100+ miles and 90 stations worth of experience doing the same.

Given that, actually building a first of it's kind 40 mile 300 mph rail line
through the same sort of aerial and tunnel requiring [2] suburban counties
around DC for 'only' $10B seems completely implausible.

1:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8492525](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8492525)

2: [http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-maglev-
train-i...](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-maglev-train-idea-
for-northeast-resurfaces-20131101-story.html)

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cddotdotslash
I find it interesting how much of our infrastructure is being funded, at least
in part, by foreign investors and governments. I can't find a source for this
atm, but I've hear rumors that Chinese investors are the ones footing a large
portion of the bill for subway station WiFi and cell services being added in
NYC. Through the EB5 visa program, foreign investors can essentially purchase
a green card by investing in US-based infrastructure or services creating
jobs. This includes shopping malls, housing complexes, schools, etc. Here,
Japanese investors are looking to begin funding railways in the US.
Ultimately, I think it's a positive development since it enables so many
projects that would be otherwise impossible, but it certainly raises the
question of how much of our infrastructure will actually be owned by us in the
future.

~~~
my3681
Foreign infrastructure funding has been going on for a while now in the form
of toll roads. Particularly, there is a Spanish group called Cintra who does a
lot of business stateside. See these articles for more information. [1] [2]

[1]
[http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-07-15-u.s.-h...](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-07-15-u.s.-highways_x.htm?csp=34)
[2] [http://www.examiner.com/article/texans-call-for-boycott-
of-f...](http://www.examiner.com/article/texans-call-for-boycott-of-first-
foreign-owned-toll-road)

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chrisBob
It is not obvious that Baltimore <-> DC is the right place to start, but I
think the US needs more high speed rail, and if this is the gateway to that
program then I support it. If the plan is anything other than starting here
and then extending to NY and then Boston then it is useless.

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imgabe
> A maglev train may help ease traffic that has made roads in Maryland’s
> Montgomery County, which lies between Washington and Baltimore, the fourth-
> most-congested in the country

No...this wouldn't do anything for Montgomery County, which is mostly
northwest of DC and not at all on the way to/from Baltimore. Driving to DC
from Baltimore you pass through Prince George's County. Unless maybe they
expect people are going to move from Montgomery County to Baltimore? That
seems unlikely. The type of person who wants to live in Montgomery County does
not want to live in Baltimore.

~~~
freshyill
I live in Montgomery County and I would live in/around Baltimore. I'm
completely priced out of the non-stabby areas of DC if I want to send my kids
to public school. I probably wouldn't send my kids to Baltimore public schools
either, but at least I could afford the private ones there.

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yumraj
During the NASA AMES open house this Sat (10/18) I came across Skytran
[http://www.skytran.us/](http://www.skytran.us/) which is a maglev 2-person
per shuttle personal rapid transport (PRT).

Per the person there they seem to have some plans to deploy in Israel in next
1-1.5 year. Washington to Baltimore using something like this could make a lot
more sense, and is much cheaper.

What is interesting is that almost no one seems to have heard of them when
they seem to have some real technology. Elon's hyperloop theoritical proposal
got more publicity.

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baggachipz
“We hope the U.S. government will be submitting some of the funds to finish it
out.”

LOL. Thanks for the comedy this morning. I'm guessing they're looking for
somewhere around $5B (half of the proposed cost). As nice as it would be to
see something like this, the US government has no designs on dropping a
fraction of that money on any kind of rail system. They can't even pay for the
current road infrastructure.

~~~
ams6110
If Amtrak is any indicicator, the US government does NOT know how to run a
railroad. They are the last partner you would want on such a project.

~~~
_delirium
I'm not sure I'd really call Amtrak a railroad in the conventional sense of
the term. With a few exceptions [1] they neither own nor lease trackage, and
merely have legal access to trackage on fairly low-priority terms (the track
controllers give them something like "best-effort" access, with no teeth in
what constitutes a good effort). They're mostly a weird conglomeration of the
former passenger services of a bunch of railroads, which were glued together
and dumped on the government in the '70s in order to keep them on life
support, but with no mandate to do much of anything but run the former
services glued together on top of the trackage that was retained by the former
operators.

[1] The exceptions:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak#Tracks_owned_or_leased_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak#Tracks_owned_or_leased_by_Amtrak)

~~~
biscuitt
I mean they own the majority of the track on the Northeast Corrider line
including both the tunnel under the hudson river and the east river tunnel in
Manhattan. This is their most heavily used line, and they have priority
through those tunnels over LIRR, NJ Transit, and MetroNorth.

~~~
_delirium
That's the main exception, yes, and that one has much better operation
compared to the rest of the lines.

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thrillgore
The problems posed here already been solved by the TGV model. Why Maryland
needs a maglev system confuses me.

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Shivetya
Where is the economic benefit except for those two cities? Do a bunch of
politically connected people have homes in Baltimore? High speed trains do
little if nothing to ease commutes for the middle and lower classes, if
anything they serve the rich while acting as political landmarks and budgetary
landmines.

Considering the track record they have big projects in that area, namely
Boston's Big Dig, and how much money alone gets blown on light rail where
estimates are wholly inadequate, this seems like political grandstanding or
distraction.

Concentrate on creating jobs for those who need them, this is not something
HSR will do.

~~~
freshyill
That's the thing—there is no economic benefit. It's not like DC and Baltimore
have a symbiotic relationship, other than the fact that some people live in
Baltimore and commute to DC (although far more people live _between_ DC and
Baltimore).

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mrfusion
Wouldn't it take a ton of energy to hold a whole train against the force of
gravity for any period of time? (or am I misunderstanding the physics?)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Doesn't take any energy to hold a book on a shelf. Same kind of thing. It
takes energy to move across the gradient of a field (like gravity or
magnetism). If the train doesn't move up or down, no net energy required.

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teekert
311 MPH is about 500 KPH.

