

On Coda 2 and Diet Coda - whalesalad
http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2012/may/22/on-coda-2-and-diet-coda/

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bjplink
From the article:

"...but choosing to build a MySQL editor into a web development package just
furthers my impression that Coda is basically designed for the php crowd."

I'm not sure why that is a problem.

This article by Croft is a pretty good summation of almost all of the negative
commentary surrounding both the original version of Coda and the upcoming
release of Coda 2. The rest of the article is full of digs at people who work
in a way different than what Jeff Croft does. It is incredibly condescending.

The reason why I can't stand reading nerdy tech blogs anymore is because
everyone is convinced they are right and the rest of the plebes using
antiquated (read: different) technology are morons.

I would argue that there are enough people doing things the way Coda best
supports to make the creation and marketing of the software justifiable.
Otherwise they probably wouldn't be days away from releasing a major new
version they appear to have spent a lot of time, money and thought on.

If there's enough demand for software like Coda shouldn't we all just take a
big step back and acknowledge that's ok? There's more than one way to operate
as a developer today and maybe we should all leave our thousand word treatises
that chastise people for doing things the way they want in our "drafts"
folder.

~~~
Pewpewarrows
I'm sorry, but if you're a professional web developer you need to stop editing
files directly on remote servers. Period. Full stop.

Apologists post in threads like these time and time again, whether the
argument is for them using PHP, SVN, or whatever. My reply boils down to this:

Sure, you can construct a home using nothing but straw and mud. And because
the house is still standing at the end of the first day, you convince yourself
that those are good materials for your next job. But don't kid yourself. Straw
and mud are not good, modern tools for construction. You're going to be looked
down upon by the rest of your industry that moved on to wood, brick, and
cement. Deal with it.

~~~
bjplink
Your reply just reiterates my point because you're doing the same thing the
post author does. In between the talk of version control, his post is laced
with allusions that people working with technologies he doesn't (PHP & mySQL
in this case) are a bunch of dumb baddies.

Why would someone possibly care enough to go out of there way to write a blog
post condemning them. I just don't get it. This seems like a popular tactic in
the Ruby and Python communities although it's toned down enough over the last
few years that I thought this movement was about over. This post just helped
remind me it isn't.

~~~
Pewpewarrows
It's no use debating with someone that absolutely refuses to admit the
possibility that their tools are sub-par.

If your feelings get hurt: good. Maybe if it happens enough times you'll move
on to better tools and technologies, you'll have an easier time building
better products, and your customers will be more happy.

~~~
ivyirwin
I'm shocked at the disdain people on HN have for certain tools. I was always
taught that it's not the tool, it's how you use it. I think Panic is a perfect
example of that axiom. Their website (at least the older versions) has been
emulated by web developers many times over. They were one of the first sites I
know that enabled drag and drop icons to download files; they nailed scrolling
content with tab browsing, and everyone quickly copied it. I assume they use
their own tools, so while it may not sound like a cutting edge tool, they are
certainly able to produce cutting edge results.

~~~
chrisrogers
PHP is like the old rusting hand saw to Python/Ruby/etc's laser-guided table
saw.

Sure, we're all cutting wood. But some of us are doing it with faster and
safer tools. Maybe the consumer doesn't notice the difference, but the
carpenter sure as hell does.

------
moondev
Heres where this article misses:

You don't HAVE to edit directly on the server with Coda, but it is an OPTION.
You can just as easily work locally/commit and then sync with the dev server.

Also, not everyone works on projects hosted on a vps. ftp/sftp is very much
still relevant in the real world.

Diet Coda is not meant to be a replacement for your macbook, that is why it is
10 bucks. Also recreating a virtual local file system with git inside an ios
app is probably not worth the effort. I for one welcome the "quick hack"
nature of the app. Its not meant to be an ide replacement.

"Much as I love Panic, I’ve never used Coda" then why are you writing a
critique on software you have never used?

~~~
Pewpewarrows
> Also, not everyone works on projects hosted on a vps. ftp/sftp is very much
> still relevant in the real world.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

~~~
moondev
you know what i mean.

~~~
alwold
I'm sort of confused. How does a vps differ from a regular server in terms of
FTP usage?

~~~
moondev
If you have your own server then of course you can do fancy deployments, but
locked down shared hosts make it harder. Ftp is lowest common denominator to
get your stuff up. I'm just saying that many people need to work in these
environments and don't have the luxury of being able to deploy in cute ways.

Also I find developing wordpress/drupal sites that working directly on the dev
server is fine, and committing from there is the best flow. It can be a big
pita and time waster trying to maintain these sites in different places just
for shits and giggles.

------
mmuro
"Much as I love Panic, I’ve never used Coda"

Just stop reading the article after this because whatever is said doesn't
matter. If you aren't the audience for Coda and have never used it, then you
aren't going to want their updates.

"Although Coda 2 looks like it has some great new features...it still feels
like it continues this trend of catering to developers from five years ago."

Who says software (most especially code editors) should appeal to every single
kind of developer? Look, it may not fit your work flow, but it sure as hell
does mine and all of my coworkers. I know I'm not alone on this either.

Steven Frank of Panic, responds to Jeff in the comments: "There’s no way we
could be a perfect fit for everyone’s workflow, so we concentrated on what we
perceived to be the most common workflows, and those that would the most
generally adaptable."

Bingo.

~~~
jcroft
Nice of you to quote Steven's comment but not my reply where I clearly state
how strongly I agree with him.

------
54mf
I had a whole response ready, but it looks like Steven Frank - one of the
founders and devs at Panic - replied in the comments and addressed all the
issues:

"We edit directly on a server — but not our production server. We have a
staging server which is an identical clone of the production server, and also
a Subversion working copy. A deployment script syncs everything over to
production when it’s ready, which is a separate operation from committing it
to the svn repo.

Ever since we shipped Coda 1, we’ve learned that there are as many ways to set
up a web development infrastructure as there are web developers. There’s no
way we could be a perfect fit for everyone’s workflow, so we concentrated on
what we perceived to be the most common workflows, and those that would the
most generally adaptable."

[http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2012/may/22/on-coda-2-and-diet-
cod...](http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2012/may/22/on-coda-2-and-diet-
coda/#c167677)

------
kareemsabri
I'd suggest that a very significant proportion of devs are of the variety Jeff
describes. Panic is a business, and they've identified a market segment to
serve and serve very well. It's not their job to encourage developers to
improve their workflow.

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marban
diet coda will introduce a new class of developers - the touchvoper.

