
Ask HN: What is it like to experience a PIP? - sbilstein
Given the recent discussion around Amazon&#x27;s &quot;jury&quot; system, I&#x27;m curious if people have examples of PIPs they&#x27;ve been on or managers that have put employees on PIP.<p>I was a manager for a short while and the only underperforming employee was transferred to a team of his choosing since he had a long history good reputation overall and just seemed to dislike my particular set of projects.
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HeyLaughingBoy
I was on a PIP. I successfully completed it and was returned to "normal
status" at the end of the evaluation period.

However, I quit soon after. During the PiP period, I realized that the reason
I was on a PiP in the first place was because I really didn't want to be there
and had subconsciously started slacking off. I had previously been a high-
performing employee, but the company changed. Found a job I preferred and here
I am.

Poetic justice was them calling me a few months later to consult on a problem
they couldn't solve on their own :-)

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pesto88
May be putting myself out there, but I've been on 2, both received after a
year of working at respective companies, and both "passed."

Both teams I was on did scrum, with point values that denoted how much time a
given task should take. Under both PIP's I had to finish a full X week's
amount of work, with the end of each sprint being a hard deadline.

There were regular, sometimes bi-weekly meetings to see that I was on the
right track, that were either performed by the managers themselves or someone
from HR.

One lead to me quitting 4 months after, and one actually lead me to having a
stronger connection to my manager / team. I'd say it's sort of a wake up call
saying "Are you really committed to this project/team/company?"

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jackgolding
On /r/consulting people talk about PIPs fairly often so look there if you want
a variety of situations and answers. The general thought there is if you are
being put on a PIP look for another job as the company will have a reason to
instantly fire you and it will hang over your head forever.

I was on one where I passed. I thought it was quite demeaning how my manager,
the GM and HR waved their finger at me out of the blue as if they were angry
parents who felt they needed to scorn someone. I didn't truly understand what
I was in trouble for ESPECIALLY how much they emphasized "don't try to rope
others into this." I didn't say anything in the meeting other than I apologize
for this performance and I agree to the PIP ... In the next meeting my manager
said my silence was noted by HR as a lack of empathy and they were close to
escalating to instant firing at that stage. I wasn't exactly sure what I was
expected to do but I attended all necessary meetings and improved my
performance and was taken off the PIP. At this stage I'd gone through the
recruitment process with other roles and resigned shortly after.

EDIT: As OP is a manager they might want to know how they can manage poor
performance better. The worst manager's I've had have skipped weekly/monthly
meetings with me then after three months exploded about certain work which was
mentioned in a passing conversation not being completed. If you are
considering escalating performance issues to HR I think it is good practice to
ensure the staff member is notified after the meeting in email that you've
talked to them about performance.

~~~
sbilstein
Most employees in my experience want to be useful, want to contribute, and
want to get along with their colleagues. I have experienced some
underperforming employees but now as a founder of a startup with zero
employees, I have no one to coach :)

It is challenging to coach someone who does not care. There are people who
take employment for granted, who don't seem to have a survival instinct or
believe another job is just waiting for them. Trying to empathize with those
who don't see the world the same way I do is an ongoing challenge; figuring
out how to motivate someone requires understanding who they are which is non-
trivial giving varying life experiences.

I've reported an employee to HR once for some ongoing inappropriate behavior.
While they recovered and our relationship recovered and went on to get a
promo, in retrospect I should have talked to him 1:1 and attempted to fix it
without HR.

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basica
I think it depends on the company. Here's two anecdotes for what it's worth:

I worked for a well known defense force contractor and worked under someone
who was put on a PIP. The PIP was just a formality in the overall scheme of
things as they couldn't fire them without putting them through one first. It
was a death march with no chance of success. It was hard hearing them go
through it as they were a nice enough person, just not at all suited to the
role they were in. In short, PIPs were not seen as methods to actually get an
employee back on track in their current role or another one; they were already
fired, it's just got a ~12 month notice.

In another organisation a coworker of mine was absolutely useless and were put
on a PIP. They genuinely tried to get them back on track and the PIP lasted
for a very long time and even renewed their contract when they had a perfect
opportunity to let them go. Ultimately they weren't fired directly, when their
contract came to its end they put the job up for applications and they didn't
win it back. I didn't find out about their PIP until years after the fact and
TBH I wish the team knew about it. For all this time we thought they were
getting away with their terrible work ethic.

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twunde
In 95% of companies PIPs are there as a required step before during someone
with no chance that the person can save their job. Hell, I'd bet that a good
chunk of companies push them out before the 30 days by ensuring that something
bad happens (mystery IT outage, paperwork not filled out properly, etc). I've
never seen a person in tech be put on a PIP. They're typically fired, laid off
at the first chance or sometimes will wait until the contract is up. Really,
if you need to be put on a PIP, you've already made a poor impression on your
manager and it would take a miracle to change that impression

~~~
ccajas
One question: Does being put on a PIP disqualify you from unemployment
benefits if you get fired for not passing the PIP?

~~~
mchannon
TLDR: No.

Unemployment benefits are strictly a function of being let go for cause or not
for cause. You might be on a PIP for cause-related reasons (absenteeism,
showing up drunk but otherwise contributing), or non-cause-related reasons
(the maladroit who took over as your manager got told to he needed to downsize
his team). The presence of a "PIP" is unimportant. What is important is the
documentary burden employers have to meet to disqualify you for unemployment,
which in California can be substantial.

Even if they have a really good reason for firing you for cause, you might
still get your full unemployment if they deem it less expensive than fighting
with you and the state over it.

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pasbesoin
PIP is an HR tool. How it goes is, in practice, pretty much totally up to them
in collaboration with your manager.

Maybe you have a genuine, acute but deemed manageable problem, and a manager
who genuinely wants to help you overcome and move past it. Maybe.

If not, as others have said, it's a prelude to firing you. If you don't seem
to be failing out, they will find a way to adjust it until you do. In the
meantime, they are collecting data and paperwork to "justify" your eventual
termination.

So, it's time to look elsewhere.

Oh, and, any severance will likely be tied to a non-disclosure/non-
disparagement agreement. If you don't want to be caught by one of those, leave
before they terminate you. Or have enough available assets to be able to not
depend upon the severance.

Keep in mind, if they manage to terminate you "for cause", you may not be
eligible for unemployment insurance benefits (in the U.S.). This can cut both
ways: Because each claim contributes to raising the rates the company pays for
the unemployment insurance participation, they may want to deny you said claim
as a cost-saving measure. On the other hand, such denials can incur
substantial legal and staff-hour costs, when they are fought. So, if the
company is reasonably well off or "well-managed / best practices", they may
decide it's simpler and more straight-forward -- "cleaner", and also maybe
lowering risk of retaliation -- to just terminate you "at will" and let you
collect unemployment.

If your health insurance is from the employer (again, U.S.), you should be
able to participate in COBRA extension of benefits (at your cost), regardless.

\----

P.S. I'm no expert. If you're in this situation, verify these things for
yourself.

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CloudNetworking
I have never been on a PIP, but I've seen people on it.

In this limited experience, 100% of the PIPs were just a grace period before
firing them. One of them just found something else in the meanwhile, the other
one -an idealistic chap- fought until the very end a war he couldn't win. His
case wasn't about performance, but about what he thought was right. A big loss
for the company as he was an amazing engineer that just needed some guidance,
but he got a mediocre manager with who he clashed...

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alixaxel
What's a PIP?

~~~
toyg
Performance Improvement Plan, a process whereby an employee is formally told
he has to do better.

~~~
stuntkite
CYA for firing with cause. I have never seen it used with the intention of
improving a persons performance.

