
Marijuana Damages Young Brains - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/16/opinion/marijuana-brain-effects.html
======
woodruffw
Scary title.

The actual results[1] are less scary: _long-term_ , _heavy_ cannabis use that
_begins_ in adolescence correlates with increased rates of psychological
conditions and IQ decline.

Edit: To inject a personal anecdote: every time I travel to Europe, I see
people my age (and sometimes substantially younger) drinking beer and smoking
marijuana. I _almost never_ see reckless drinking or smoking the way I do in
the US (e.g., at every college event), and I attribute that to a cultural
failure of ours.

My opinion: if we want to stop the kinds of results that these studies show,
then we should focus our efforts on reducing the taboos/absence of cultural
knowledge that lead to binge usage.

[1]:
[https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2012/08/22/120682010...](https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2012/08/22/1206820109.full.pdf)

~~~
ramraj07
Thanks for the citation, but not sure how that's less scary. Sure they see the
most effect statistically in long-term heavy users, but there's no evidence to
indicate that such amount of usage is the threshold. Even occasional users
show a slight negative Delta IQ in the tables.

Perhaps you're okay with taking something that makes you even the slightest
bit dumber, but I am not. Importantly? Do you think kids should be allowed to
make this mistake when they don't understand this difference?

~~~
MegaButts
> Do you think kids should be allowed to make this mistake when they don't
> understand this difference?

Does banning it actually decrease usage (I'm genuinely asking, as it's a
highly political issue and I can find articles claiming either side)? Also I
feel it's much more our duty to inform people as much as possible to empower
them to make the best decisions (for the same reasons I think a lot of anti-
drug campaigns that exaggerate the dangers of drugs do more harm than good, or
why abstinence only sex ed is a net negative). Kids are going to do stupid
shit, it's an invaluable part of growing up. If they're not directly harming
anyone else, it should ultimately be their choice - even if we think it's a
bad one. What makes an arbitrary age any better?

My argument does not have much data behind it, and I welcome studies that
contradict my stance.

------
stormbrew
The legal age isn't set where it is because that's the age at which marijuana
is deemed to have no negative effects, any more than it is for alcohol or any
other substance that can be habit forming. It's just the age at which people
are considered responsible enough to make a decision on their own about the
risks and benefits involved.

If you want to say that cognitive development isn't done until 25, and so
people can't be considered adults until then, you'd better be ready to argue
that for a whole lot of other sacred cows.

~~~
ramraj07
Which makes sense too in many ways. The only people who've had to bet their
money on making a decision on what age to consider people as adults at, is the
rental car industry. Incidentally they came up with the 25 number too, I guess
purely actuarially.

~~~
hpen
This is no longer the case. At least in Tennessee.

~~~
Godel_unicode
That's not true. See below for the under age surcharge for Budget in Tennessee
and Enterprise everywhere:

[https://www.budget.com/budgetWeb/html/en/common/agePopUp.htm...](https://www.budget.com/budgetWeb/html/en/common/agePopUp.html#TN)
[https://www.enterprise.com/en/help/faqs/car-rental-
under-25....](https://www.enterprise.com/en/help/faqs/car-rental-
under-25.html)

~~~
hpen
How am I wrong? The link you posted states "The minimum age to rent a vehicle
is 21 years of age." Sure there's a $20 a day extra fee, but that's negligible
in comparison to the inconvenience of not being able to rent the car. The
sentiment of my comment was that you don't have to be 25 to rent a car.

~~~
Godel_unicode
You replied to a comment stating that rental car companies picked 25 as the
age below which people don't always act like adults actuarially speaking. That
bet is a literal charge in this case, weighing loss of business from higher
prices against increased risk of loss from un-adult behavior.

You said that is not true in Tennessee and, as I explained, you are wrong
about that. While I'm sure you knew what you meant, given your lack of
explanation it is assumed you were directly replying to the central tenet of
the previous comment (i.e. that persons under 25 are less adulty and should be
treated as such).

~~~
hpen
You're right. "ramraj07" was arguing that the rental companies view under 25
year olds as less mature, not that rental companies won't do business with
them. That's where I went wrong.

------
Donald
Note that ethanol, and a host of other mind-altering substances, should also
be avoided until neurobiological adulthood (approximately 26):
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4669962/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4669962/)

For alcohol, neurological effects can be observed in those who consume as
little as 21 drinks per week
([https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9500305](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9500305)).
Your brain is just a bunch of electrically powered neurons swimming in a
chemical bath - it's surprising how little of a substance over a regular time
period can have an effect.

~~~
NegativeLatency
21 drinks a week seems like a lot?

~~~
tonyarkles
It is a lot, but also a relatively easy number for e.g. a college student to
exceed.

While looking back I can see it wasn’t healthy... nachos and a couple beer on
Tuesday night after our long engineering lab, and 3 or 4 mini-pitchers (3oz)
at the bar on Friday and Saturday night pretty quickly adds up to, say, 27
drinks in a week. I was perfectly functional (minus Saturday and Sunday
mornings where I’d sleep in until 11 or noon), passed all my classes, even
made the Dean’s list.

Definitely not recommended, but not unheard of. I have a much healthier
relationship with booze now, and I’d be broke if I drank that much of the good
stuff :)

------
loser777
What is the role of THC here? Presumably THC will change your behavior, and if
your behavior over a long period of time impacts IQ or any of the metrics
mentioned (e.g., "executive function, processing speed, memory, attention span
and concentration...") then it is difficult to say that THC is the direct
cause of "damage." When we say that being poor lowers your IQ or decision
making capabilities, most infer that this is the result of secondary effects
like stress and anxiety rather than your actual wealth alone. Is the message
that THC causes damage like cigarette smoking, or like being poor---or both?

~~~
quotemstr
IQ is mostly invariant of behavior, and absent gross brain injury, is largely
fixed over one's lifetime.

~~~
tedivm
This is absolutely not true. There are multiple factors which have been proven
to affect an individual's IQ over time-

* Schooling, * How stimulating their environment is, * Nutrition, * Disease (although this is generally towards the negative).

All of these can be influenced by behavior- people's eating habits affect
their nutrition, and people who seek out intellectual stimulation are more
likely to find it than those who don't.

------
eMSF
Alcohol damages brains of all ages, as well.

I don't write that to dispute the point of the article. However, many findings
do dispute the age of adulthood.

~~~
ramraj07
Does alcohol induce long-term damage on the brain in proper adults?

~~~
DanBC
Yes. It has an acronym - ARBD (alcohol related brain damage).

It includes things like Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome (also called Korsakoff's
Phychosis), and alcohol-related dementia.

It's likely that younger people are more susceptible to alcohol related harm.

People who drink heavily are at higher risk.

This would be people who drink more than about 50 units a week for men, or 35
units per week for women. (Current safe drinking guidance is to drink no more
than 14 units a week, spread out, with some days drink free).

There are roughly 40 units in a litre bottle of spirits.

18 UK pints of 5% ABV beer would be 50 units. Over a week that might be 2
pints a day and a big session on friday and saturday.

It's hard to know how many people drink this heavily because the stats are all
self reported, people don't know what a unit is nor how strong the alcohol
they drink is, and alcohol affects memory so people can't remember what
they've drunk or when. But we think about 4% of men and 3% of women drink this
much. [https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/research/data/consumption-
uk/](https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/research/data/consumption-uk/)

------
crimsonalucard
I smoke this stuff everyday since I was 16 so I'm biased. Basically I need
more than experimental evidence or correlations to believe the results as this
completely invalidates my past behavior. Don't expect me to flip my opinion
over night based on logic. Humans aren't logical creatures. If I changed my
opinion then I'm basically admitting to taking drugs to make my brain stupider
since I was a kid.

Of course putting something in my brain that never belonged in the first place
would likely be bad for my brain judging from common sense. However, thanks to
the fact that I've been enjoying getting high for years and due to the fact I
don't want to admit I've been damaging my brain I'm going to google search
very specific results that support my bias.

See here: [https://www.inc.com/cynthia-than/the-surprising-way-to-be-
be...](https://www.inc.com/cynthia-than/the-surprising-way-to-be-better-at-
brain-teasers-a.html)

The above link is a more convenient scientific result to believe so despite
offering nothing more then the NYtimes article (just correlation and
experimental evidence) I'm going to choose what I like to believe and this
harvard study is it.

Logical conclusion: Marijuana increases IQ. Also I'm high right now, which
makes my judgement more precise because my IQ is higher at this very moment.

------
spacedog11
I wonder if the I.Q decline is caused by the use of Marijuana or if it's
caused by the life style of Marijuana users?

~~~
smokedatchichi
Being a heavy stoner through 25 is highly correlated with at least alcohol
consumption, pre-existing mental health problems, and polysubstance abuse.

That said intuitively that weed makes you stupid and crazy doesn't surprise me
in the slightest. Unfortunately smoking weed is the most fun before things get
serious with work and family in late 20s.

Another thing that came to mind, in the creativity enhanced altered state I'm
currently in and have been in since age 12, is the exact mechanism is still up
for debate regardless of established causality. I'm hoping the IQ decline
comes from sitting stoned playing video games over engagement in school and
work, as opposed to THC itself directly causing neurological learning deficits
that are not reversible

------
lanrh1836
Ive only rarely had a good experience with weed and ironically have not had
any since it was made recreationally available in CA. It usually just makes me
feel sick or very paranoid. Probably best for my wallet.

~~~
tachyonbeam
I'm in the same boat. It makes me unbearably anxious and will ruin any evening
out. I've tried multiple kinds, and even the varieties richer in CBD cause me
anxiety. It's just not a substance I can enjoy.

~~~
crimsonalucard
Same here. For some people it's like this...

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/gy8pa9/weed-causes-
anxiet...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/gy8pa9/weed-causes-anxiety-for-
some-people)

------
dade_
Right now Marijuana destroys your life in the US if you get caught with it. So
worry about decriminalization/legalization and then worry about why poor Timmy
isn't very swift. Cigarettes and alcohol damage most organs in the body, so
educate people as best you can, but people a lot younger than 18 are going to
use pot no matter what age it is legalized for so I am not sure what good this
policy advice is from NYT.

~~~
Bud
This isn't actually advice from the NY Times. It's an editorial. As such, it
represents the views only of the two writers involved.

------
jweir
If you sell a product, with known harmful effects, and you do not warn the
buyer, are you not liable?

In other words, is there a liability issue?

Any lawyers care to chime in?

------
baroffoos
It seems to me that it poses roughly the same risk as alcohol. I wonder if
legalization changes the amount of children with access to the drug. If all
sales are illegal then someone selling it probably won't care if they are
selling to an adult or a 15 year old but if selling to an adult is legal but
selling to a child is not the risk is probably not worth it.

~~~
rhizome
> _It seems to me that it poses roughly the same risk as alcohol_

Alcohol can kill you, both from ingesting too much and from quitting after
heavy usage. Cannabis does neither, and that's not even close to "roughly."

~~~
baroffoos
I know someone who is dying of lung cancer due to years of smoking marijuana.
Its not the same instant effect as one night of drinking way way too much but
you can die from both.

~~~
arpa
I hate to harsh your mellow, but it was probably due to tobacco.

------
p1mrx
> The risk that marijuana use poses to adolescents today is far greater than
> it was 20 or 30 years ago, because the marijuana grown now is much more
> potent.

For any substance that is consumed repeatedly, it is useful to "binary search"
for the minimum effective dose. This tends to cancel out potency as a
variable, while reducing the effects of tolerance.

~~~
astazangasta
The potency stuff is such garbage. So before people smoked an entire joint to
get as stoned as they now get off a few hits. So what? People titrate their
intake. Whenever i see this line i just stop reading because i feel the author
is not interested on honest argumentation.

------
timka
TL; DR. Only oral administration. At least 3 weeks between uses.

IQ tests are too narrow to assess the real picture. Can't believe these are
still in use. And what I think researchers should really test is level of
"will power" i.e. self-control.

Once a week is indeed too frequent. You have to take longer breaks. If used
recreationally at least 3 weeks between single uses, and once, or better
twice, a year a 6-8 weeks break. Plus, never smoke it, only eat. Smoking is
the most addictive way of administration.

Also, the title is misleading indeed. What marijuana does is sort of
"conserving" your brain, not damaging it. It's absolutely the opposite. It's
like neural back pressure.

------
amanzi
This debate is just starting in NZ where we will be voting next year in a
referendum on legalising personal use of cannabis. The draft legislation has
set the legal age to be 20, though this has drawn criticism from those that
say the age should be 25 based on the same arguments put forward in the linked
article.

I share the same opinion as others in this thread that say there is a certain
age where you should be considered an adult and therefore old enough to
determine whether or not you should do something that is bad for you.

------
pythonwutang
This focuses on IQ and memory but doesn’t it also impact creativity?

I’d be interested in seeing studies about marijuana’s impact on the brain’s
creative abilities to contrast with this.

Because the devil’s advocate in me thinks “We have enough high IQ people in
this world and not enough high creativity people.”

~~~
nilolo
I would be interested in this as well, but how do you measure creativity? Data
on long-term effects of marijuana is rare to come by and that's when we are
looking at a clear metric like IQ.

~~~
pythonwutang
There are a couple tests available that measure divergent thinking, which is a
part of creativity, but I’m not aware of any others.

There certainly is an abundance of anecdotal evidence that marijuana boosts
creativity from artists and musicians.

------
all_blue_chucks
Are all drugs tested to see if they affect IQ tests over extended periods?

------
m0llusk
Drinking too much water also damages young brains. Maybe we should restrict
access to water also.

------
sirusdas
See it's what you do after taking it! Marijuana will just help you with it!
Just like you eat lot of junk food and sit at one place every day that's not
going to make you fit and you can't blame the food it's you! If you learn to
focus after taking marijuana it's the best thing and if you try to distract
it's the worst thing too!

------
foolfoolz
also damages young brains: binge watching, caffeine, social media, bullying,
sleep deprivation...

~~~
glerk
Got a source for caffeine damaging the brain?

~~~
foolfoolz
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence)

~~~
svd4anything
I don’t see any references to brain damage there.

~~~
0xdeadb00f
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Adverse_effects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Adverse_effects)

Not brain damage per se: > Caffeine can have negative effects on anxiety
disorders. According to a 2011 literature review, caffeine use is positively
associated with anxiety and panic disorders. At high doses, typically greater
than 300 mg, caffeine can both cause and worsen anxiety. And > Caffeine-
induced anxiety disorder is a subclass of the DSM-5 diagnosis of
substance/medication-induced anxiety disorder.

However I will note that it does list a bunch of positive effects of caffeine
use; including reduced risk of depression ("although conflicting results have
been reported").

------
atian
How does adderall compare?

------
seattle_spring
> Marijuana Damages Young Brains

That's just... like, your opinion, man.

------
pravda
Reefer Madness! Keep your children away from the devil's cabbage!

* This unbiased message brought to you by big Pharm and America's alcohol brewers.

~~~
pseudolus
So, presumably, there's some data showing that the authors' thesis is
incorrect?

~~~
pravda
What does it matter?

Are we going to risk the lives of our children based upon a thesis which might
or might not be correct?

All I know, is that my cousin got high once and you know, he started eating
like really weird foods. And then he just felt like he didn't belong anywhere.
You know kinda like "Twilight Zone".

------
svd4anything
Legalizing Marijuana is being interpreted by the general youth population as
an endorsement of it as a recreational drug.

Marijuana advocates should prepare themselves to take moral responsibility for
the many significant negative consequences of increasing use, including
increased schizophrenia rates, traffic fatalities, industrial accidents along
with overall lower worker productivity.

The “but compared to alcohol” is a shallow argument used by these biased
advocates selfishly looking for approval for their own recreational vice.

~~~
theonemind
Keeping it illegal supports a large prison-industrial complex, takes otherwise
relatively benign and productive people and ruins their lives far out of
proportion to the offense, and helps to continue to fund large organized crime
operations, probably with ties to human trafficking and larger things than
selling marijuana, and gives law enforcement further excuse to practice civil
forfeiture (seizing property without due process of law) and gives them one
more excuse to justify curtailing other civil liberties in pursuit of the "war
on drugs."

I don't see you calling for any moral responsibility there.

~~~
svd4anything
Your argument mostly extends to full legalization of all drugs as much of your
points apply to all illegal drugs. Perhaps that is worth trying.

------
blazespin
This is true. Weed is ok when you are older, you tend to partake infrequently.
But if you take it young it becomes a habit.

I’d like to see legal age of use go up to 26. It seems like a good balance.
Legalize, yes, but you have to be mature about it.

It’s time to realize that 16 to 25 you are still pretty immature.

~~~
taneq
I used to think 18 was a good age of majority, until I got a bit older and
realised most 21-year-olds are pretty immature.

Then I thought 25 was a good age of majority, but as I got older I realised
even 30-year-olds can act pretty immature.

Now I think 35 is a good age of majority... but then again even some of my
peers can make some pretty poor decisions, so maybe 45?

Or we could just admit that this is what mature humans look like. We're still
making dumb decisions and still learning from them, right up til we die.

~~~
xkcd-sucks
Yeah thankfully older people vote more than younger people or we'd really be
in a bad situation

