
London’s trees are saving the city billions - pseudolus
https://www.citylab.com/environment/2020/03/london-trees-economic-benefits-urban-cooling-carbon/607525/
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spodek
Logically similar, I would make the headline:

 _Cutting down London’s Trees Costs the City Billions_

You can define normal how you want, but my way comes from seeing trees as
normal. The old headline seems to treat lack of trees as normal.

Instead of cutting down trees and putting up buildings, how about cutting down
buildings and putting up trees?

~~~
Shoue
Why not follow Singapore and have both? Any greenery you cut down to build
something must be replaced, and in Singapore that happens to be replaced by
becoming part of the building itself. It's a very unique, and IMO, cool look
when the skyscrapers have an open garden halfway through, or gardens on top
with greenery down the sides.

~~~
zip1234
NYC would be so amazing with greenery integrated into the cityscape more

~~~
Shounak
I hope this will happen soon. NYC passed a green roof law in Nov. 2019 that
requires all new or extensively renovated buildings to install gardens, urban
agriculture, or solar on their roofs.

[https://www.citylandnyc.org/29502-2/](https://www.citylandnyc.org/29502-2/)

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jspash
On my street the local council has recently cut down 5 trees and replaced them
with 2 tiny saplings. One is doing well. And the other is currently being used
by some guy to hang his electric car charging cable!? I despair for humanity
some times.

I bought this house 4 years ago and have since planted 5 trees on my property
alone. And have convinced two neighbours to plant at least one.

~~~
noja
> the other is currently being used by some guy to hang his electric car
> charging cable

Have you spoken to him about this?

~~~
jspash
No I haven't. But I have half a mind to place a sternly worded letter on their
windscreen!

But what do you say? "Um. You shouldn't do that." Why? Because it's bad for
the tree? "Have some respect for nature?" It's a difficult argument to
support.

"Don't be stupid, ya moron." is really what I'd like to say.

~~~
lowdose
Life is to short to accept every disrupting element others introduce.

Just ask him to come over here and look at something, then standing together
on a 15 meter distance of the tree ask him wether his decorations add a useful
element to the scenery.

Unbox the most ugly Christmas decorations you find on ebay. And supply the man
an additional set of extras so from now on he can go ahead with a more
professional gear set.

The machiavellian would record and post the prince glitter show on instagram
and then burn $200 on instagram ad boost to a selective postal code area.

Next time your British nod will have super powers.

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tomvalorsa
I worked on a project with Trees for Cities and Ealing Council a couple of
years back, which tried to visualise the importance of urban trees. Data had
been gathered to estimate the monetary value provided by trees and how much it
would cost to replace them. It was pretty eye-opening for me. Link if
interested:
[https://www.ealingitree.online/](https://www.ealingitree.online/).

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londons_explore
The claim is "Billions are saved on cooling costs because the trees keep the
environment cooler due to (presumably) shade and evaporative-cooling".

Since the vast majority of buildings in London do not have AC, the savings are
more theoretical than real.

There are also the thousands of people employed full time in the autumn to
pick up leaves, and the people employed all winter to unblock drains blocked
with tree detritus, and the springtime cutting of every tree and the
associated road blockages and slowdowns... Those are very real costs.

Add to that the misery that tree pollen causes ~half the population... Having
a headache, painful eyes, and blocked nose from april to july has got to hit
productivity pretty badly!

I'd say the benefits on purely economic grounds aren't as clearcut as this
article suggests.

~~~
mattlondon
Regarding pollen, it is not just trees, but also grasses and flowers.

Plus anti-histamine tablets are super-effective and cost literally a couple of
pence per tablet from generics so you could spend perhaps £5 (1) to have
enough hay fever tablets to last the entire summer and beyond (and probably
free on the NHS if you can't afford £5) so I don't think it is quite such
misery.

1 - [https://smile.amazon.co.uk/240-Loratadine-Allergy-Relief-
Tab...](https://smile.amazon.co.uk/240-Loratadine-Allergy-Relief-
Tablets/dp/B076CJ5TG3)

~~~
londons_explore
Take a chemical to block some effects of one's immune system... Sounds like a
good way to avoid hayfeaver but get more serious infections instead...

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Zenst
I'm not so convinced of the findings of this - value wise. Yes they are great
but been many failed initiatives that lacked common sense:

[https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/11855411.greener-
pastures...](https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/11855411.greener-pastures-for-
tolworth-as-dead-trees-finally-replaced/)

They spent a huge amount to install a non-native tree that is effectifly a
stick and they died, replaced them again and they also died, finally replaced
them with something that would last and they are just saplings. The greenway
was effectively getting the middle of a busy road and putting in some concrete
pathing which they painted green, few flower boxes that are mostly showing off
soil and that cost millions.

So call me a cynical about some initiatives, but I've seen, experienced as
thanks to my local council - paid for so many failed ones that to teh common
lay person - lacked common sense, that when I see such reports, I just know
they are not seeing the whole picture and are only used to push more
expensive, ill-thought vanity projects by certain types of councils.

Same council who ignores flooding in some area's and would be best solved by
planting some trees, yet they refuse as they are worried about additional leaf
little that may clog up the roads. For those wondering - Kingston-Upon-Thames
is the area's I'm referring about.

But if a council can cut down a large tree for dubious reasons and replace it
with a couple of saplings that take decades to reach the same potential and in
many cases, poorly chosen tree's that will die, they can trumpet their ego and
say they have more trees than they cut down, yet reality shows that is far
from the truth in results.

~~~
ericmay
> install a non-native tree

Well, that seems like a problem to me.

~~~
pvaldes
Not really in this case. The list of native fastigiata trees available is
reduced. Yew would be the closer one, but can be very problematic in public
spaces

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RareSoft
Urban tree planting is great but there must be a better way of planting trees
along pavements.

Everywhere they have been planted the roots have torn up the pavements
sometimes causing them to mound over the roots which looks really unsightly
and is often a trip hazard. Also on some pavements the trees cause bottlenecks
because its too narrow for two people to pass eachother.

~~~
saagarjha
Perhaps we can get rid of some of the pavement :)

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namdnay
Pavement = “sidewalk” in American

~~~
saagarjha
Ah, in American it’s usually considered to be the street itself…

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aries1980
My experience with UK trees is that Victorian housing does not have
foundation, so their roots can and do make the walls moving, crack up floors,
etc. Cracks on the walls means bad insulation (apart unstable structure to
live in), hence I am not sure the assessment in the article is thorough
enough.

I am not sure what would be the solution to this, apart from demolishing the
old buildings and build new ones up that satisfy modern standards.

~~~
317070
Double glazing would already go a long distance in London. I would not blame
the trees when a lot of houses have windows with cracks you can see outside
through. Let alone the single glazing everywhere.

~~~
Ntrails
My landlord put in double glazing before I moved in, it is assuredly better
than the previous situation - but there is still on hell of a draft coming
from somewhere...

~~~
gerdesj
Have a look at the floor for draughts. Our old methods of construction were
pretty shocking. Look out for gaps underneath the skirting boards. Our walls
are usually a double skin of brick and there will be air bricks to allow the
gap between to dry out. Then you have floor/ceiling joists, probably with gaps
around their ends. On the joists you will have floorboards, again with gaps
between them. On the boards you will probably have some rubbish underlay and
then carpet. Around the edges the walls will be finished with skirting boards.
Over time the floors will sag.

You only report "one" hell of a draught coming from somewhere. There will be
lots of draughts!

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praptak
The article mentions both air conditioning and prevention of worker
productivity loss from the heat. Isn't it double counting?

Generally you pay in productivity loss XOR the AC costs, right?

~~~
pvaldes
Noise reduction (better quality sleeping time), improving psychological well
being of citizens, and pollution cleaning are another economically relevant
services.

Trees are not free, but even taking in mind the need to remove litter and
manage it, they will improve the economy in a city. At least as long you
choose wisely the right species.

~~~
praptak
I am only curious about the reasoning behind the (possibly) double counting,
not challenging the reasoning as whole.

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te_chris
One of the real problems with tree planting is that humans don’t comprehend
the lifetime of a tree intuitively - hence chopping down a heritage tree and
replacing with 10 saplings. It takes a couple of centuries for a tree to reach
full maturity. At 100 years they’re adolescent. Combine this with our lack of
appreciation for the “network effects” of forests and we are exceptionally
neglectful of these incredible life forms.

Highly, highly recommend the book The Hidden Life of Trees

~~~
Amygaz
That isn't true at all.

Trees become mature at different rates, which also depends on climate. In
temperate climate with sub-zero winter, a fast growing species, like poplar
trees and spruces, will take 10 years to start producing flower.

And while a yellow poplar lives on average 250 years, the hybrid poplar live
50 years. White spruce easily live pass 300 years, while black spruce seldom
reach 300 years.

Edit: network effect has nothing to do with a tree maturation or lifespan, but
everything to do with creating an ecosystem. A single row of trees in the city
creates an local ecosystem. The Houston medical area is a good example of
that: [https://news.rice.edu/2019/09/06/pain-in-the-asp-rice-
ecolog...](https://news.rice.edu/2019/09/06/pain-in-the-asp-rice-ecologists-
find-bird-deterring-nets-create-haven-for-stinging-pests/)

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Spooky23
In my city, landlords gang up on trees with see click fix. They express fake
concern over power line proximity, just make up stories about dead branches or
rot, etc.

It saves them a few hours of labor to pick up leaves.

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867-5309
slightly related: bees are in decline and worth hundreds of millions to UK
economy being pollinators for major exports apples/cider. hence the need for
more protected and greener spaces. I read somewhere that bees provide more
money for the UK than the royal family

~~~
Symbiote
Given the Royal Family is entirely a cost, that's not saying much.

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Wildgoose
No, not even true. The Government makes a profit on the Crown Estates, the
Civil List is entirely covered - and MUCH less than say the French pay on
their President. And we haven't even started on revenues generated from
tourism, etc.

I think we get a Good Deal.

~~~
Symbiote
The Crown Estates would be public land, and without the royal family we could
open several large buildings as museums — and charge entry to tourists if we
want to profit.

We'd also be free of some racists, a sex abuser, and a meddling old man, who
claim to represent the people of a democracy but have never stood for
election.

~~~
qtplatypus
The crown estates are not owned by the public, they are owned by the royal
family. To transfer them to public would need the government to give the royal
family a massive pay out.

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orasis
There are trees in London?

