

Someday, you may use bitcoin without knowing it - gamechangr
http://qz.com/87556/someday-you-may-use-bitcoin-without-even-knowing-it/

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swalsh
" dreams of reinventing the financial system based around a currency not
issued by governments and not subject to the whims of central banks."

Lets ask Greece how not having control over its currency is going...

Bitcoin is a primitive financial system wrapped up in a high tech envelope.

~~~
genwin
Someone else having control of your currency is a lot different than no one
having control over it.

~~~
hencq
It might be different, but it doesn't seem to matter much in practice. But
fine, instead of comparing it to Greece, you could compare it to the gold
standard. That didn't work so well either.

~~~
the_rosentotter
Somehow civilizations and empires flourished before modern financial
instruments.

~~~
bayesianhorse
They actually didn't. Banks have been around for centuries and where
instrumental in any economic growth beyond medieval farming methods...

~~~
icebraining
But "banks" aren't a currency. They may have issued their own currencies
during the gold standard, but then again nothing prevents banks from issuing
their own currency in an (absolutely hypothetical) bitcoin standard.

~~~
bayesianhorse
The gold standard had to be abandoned because it didn't work. For that matter,
a new "Dollar Standard" is popping up, with all sorts of countries using the
dollar as legal or quasi-legal tender...

~~~
oleganza
"Had to be abandoned"? Threat of 10 years in prison in 1933 does not sound
like "people decided gold sucks". I guess, government had to take gold by
force precisely because people trusted gold more than paper.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Executive_Order_6102.jpg>

~~~
hencq
Isn't that exactly an argument why it had to be abandoned? The government
couldn't increase the money supply, because dollars had to be backed by gold.

~~~
icebraining
Well, some people disagree with the idea that the inability of the government
to increase the money supply means the system doesn't work.

~~~
hencq
Fair enough, but I think most economists agree on the problems with a gold
standard [1]. This is moving off-topic, but it's interesting that this seems
to be one of many topics where there's a rare consensus between economists,
but the general public holds a different opinion [2].

1\. [http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-
re...](http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-
results?SurveyID=SV_cw1nNUYOXSAKwrq) 2\.
[http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-
economics/21569378...](http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-
economics/21569378-if-economists-agree-something-public-will-almost-certainly-
think)

~~~
gamechangr
I posted this article. This is a little off topic, but I like the links. Karma
point to u.

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Nursie
_“Bitcoin is basically based on mistrust rather than trust”_

In some ways, but when we're talking about the reversability of transactions
we're really just putting trust in different places. I trust the bank
waaaaaaay more than I trust any online vendor. Particularly one with whom I
don't have an existing relationship, but even then. For the folks that love
BTC at the moment that seems to be reversed.

\--edit-- I'm also not sure how doing _two_ trades on an international
currency transfer is supposed to be cheaper than one....

~~~
oleganza
Chargebacks are useful to consumers not because of evil merchants who can
steal their money (merchants in general are not evil and care about
reputation). The real problem is giving away full access to your credit card.
Someone can steal your CC number from any shop you used it before and then
make a purchase. Since CC is so fragile, Visa offers you a chargeback capacity
putting merchants under huge risk of fraud.

With bitcoin you don't show your whole wallet to anyone. You only make a
single transaction to a single address. Merchant cannot possibly leak anything
that will give someone ability to spend your money. Instead of spreading your
identifying information to 1000s of shops you only keep it in a single place
that you control directly (but you should be careful here). So you don't need
chargebacks if no one can easily steal your money.

To avoid fraud from merchants, people use "reputation" and escrows. Typically,
you will be okay to risk paying 3 bucks almost anyone, but you'd pay 300
dollars only to people you already trust (think Apple Store, WalMart etc.) For
very rare cases when you need extra security, go to an intermediate escrow
service. (E.g. ebay.)

~~~
Nursie
Umm, no. I exactly want protection from unscrupulous merchants. Stolen CC
detail fraud is on the decline thanks to the likes of EMV cards, and I also
have legal protection from it via my bank for when that fails.

Reputation and escrows are really no equivalent to legal protection from
merchant fraud and instant refunds on dispute. We have centuries of history
with shysters and scammers (CAVEAT EMPTOR) to show us why this stuff is useful
and it's pretty trivial to fake reputation and to fake escrow.

>> you'd pay 300 dollars only to people you already trust

Nicely cementing the big boys in the market and locking out smaller vendors
forever.

I'm sorry people feel so affronted by consumer protections and chargeback, but
without them I wouldn't buy stuff off the net at all.

~~~
gamechangr
Trust is central to all net purchases. No way around that.

~~~
socillion
I'd argue that online purchases are so popular precisely because the trust
problem has been effectively tackled by Paypal and other processors. If a deal
goes bad, you can dispute the payment and probably get your money back.

If you're using Liberty Reserve, Bitcoin, Paypal Gift, or anything else like
them, your money is gone and there is nothing you can do.

Even if this isn't a problem for you, I think Bitcoin will have to solve it in
some way to get any widespread adoption. Irreversible transactions are _not_
popular.

~~~
oleganza
See a couple of my comments around this thread. I think irreversible
transactions is precisely what is Bitcoin major selling factor. Many merchants
will be able to give you a nice discount and eliminate their headaches. You as
a customer will get more stuff, cheaper and with a friendlier look at you
(living in Paris I see how merchants detest credit card payments for risks and
losses involved).

~~~
gamechangr
Think of the various ebay scams that exist right now around these issues. For
example, I have friends who purchased a zpad (kid Ipad) and had a "no
questions asked return policy" for 90 days. They sent it back week two and the
Chinese company claims to not receive it until day 92. At least my friend
could file a complaint so that others would not fall into the same trap. What
kind of recourse would you have with bitcoin?

------
sunsu
Interestingly, I just had a local law enforcement official ask me to "explain
bitcoin" to him yesterday. He said that "it came up" in a case they were
working on and he had no idea what it was.

This is just evidence that its becoming a lot more mainstream.

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mtowle
>If our experts can't agree on the value of bitcoin, why should consumers?

This is quite possibly the dumbest rhetorical question I've ever heard. On
like 3 different levels. Replace 'bitcoin' with, like, _anything._ Oranges.
Trees. Cars. What the eff are you talking about, lady.

~~~
gamechangr
Funny. I posted this and didn't catch that. Good eye. Karma point to u

~~~
mtowle
In fairness, I thought it was a quality piece otherwise. It was probably just
something her editor threw in.

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zemanel
Every other article describing the nature of Bitcoin, if not all, mention how
it is used to sell drugs online (Silk Road), transaction anonymity [as a
facilitator of crime] and this one forgot to state how Bitcoin is apparently
the preferred currency of dictators, as if oficial currencies are not being
used, as i type this, and have been used over the ages to facilitate every
crime in the book.

I think this is important because it may be transpiring a very bad image to
the less informed, because i see Bitcoin as a tool, which will be used for
wrong doing as any other. Wish i had the link to a recent article that bashed
Bitcoin into oblivion.

~~~
gamechangr
Agreed. I think Bitcoin has amazing potential as a tool. It's hard to create
no government control without opening pandora's box.

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droopyEyelids
You know how there are certain words or phrases that make you feel the sands
of time wastefully slipping through your fingers? They're hard to notice,
because they're coupled with the habit of scanning to the next article, or
moving to the next link.

The description of Bitcoin as "untraceable" makes my close-tab reflex trigger
like a doctor bumping my knee. Seems like describing a human as invincible
because the bodies will forever persist as some configuration of mass and
energy.

~~~
gcr
No kidding. If every coin carries its immutable transaction history with it,
Bitcoin is the antithesis of "untraceable."

~~~
gamechangr
Well put. I hadn't thought of it in those terms.

