
Someone is stealing Christopher Columbus letters - mayiplease
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/christopher-columbus-letters-stolen-from-vatican-libraries-around-the-world-60-minutes-2019-10-20/
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mysterypie
> _One of the most valuable art collections in Europe isn 't housed in a
> museum visited by millions of tourists, but in this warehouse in the back of
> his police station. It's basically an evidence locker for stolen artifacts.
> This is a Caravaggio. What does a Caravaggio go for these days? It is
> millions of dollars. It is a paint stolen at the end of 1990 and was from a
> private house._

What's not explained is why are police keeping all this artwork? If you saw
the _60 Minutes_ piece on this you'd see that it's an enormous evidence room
full of artworks they are hoarding. They know where the multi-million dollar
Caravaggio was stolen from in 1990. Why hasn't at least this particular piece
been returned to its owner?

I also wonder why such an obvious question isn't answered in the story. I'm
afraid that the answer might be that it doesn't fit the agenda of the story
about sophisticated art thieves and super rich collectors. The reason might be
that the Italian police declare that your art is a national treasure and they
simply keep it. Or they impose an impossible burden of proof that you acquired
it legally (similar to U.S. asset forfeiture laws) and require you to show a
chain of receipts back to Caravaggio in 1602.

~~~
joosters
Why do you think there’s an agenda? The article talks about returning the
stolen letters to their owners, so it’s not like the police are unwilling to
repatriate stolen goods. Perhaps these artworks in their store have unknown
owners or there are conflicting claims? And what do you do with antiquities
like an ancient amphora? Who knows where it came from originally, so who do
you return it to?

~~~
mysterypie
> _Perhaps these artworks in their store have unknown owners_

For unknown owners, fine. But they know where the Caravaggio came from. The
article says, "Giovanni Prisco: Yes, and it is a paint stolen at the end of
1990 and was from a private house. It was discovered in the north of Italy."

I'm reading that as saying that it was stolen from someone's private house and
that it was recovered somewhere else in the north of Italy.

~~~
allannienhuis
Perhaps the person from whom it was stolen can't prove they owned it
legitimately? I expect stealing stolen goods has higher odds of not being
reported so lower risk for the thieves. That said, stealing from people who
might own stolen expensive art might not be the smartest thing to do... :)

~~~
casefields
That’s why OP asked if the burden of proof is so absurd that you have to show
receipts back to 1602 by Carravaggio himself. This should be easily answered
in the article but isn’t.

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mkhalil
> If there is one library in the world you'd think would be impervious to
> theft, this would be it.

Gotta admit, not really.

> Jay suspected the library's letter had been stolen and put up for sale,
> which meant whatever was currently in their collection was a fake.

> Jay Dillon: To my utter astonishment, a Columbus letter in the Vatican
> library was a forgery. And then I went to the Biblioteca Riccardiana in
> Florence and damned if the same thing doesn't happen again. Their Columbus
> letter is a fake too.

I think this is an interesting story. But, imagine if all these "valuable"
private libraries just scanned all there stuff. Does the original really
matter? The data in the book should be enough. Of course it does to many
people, the original DOES matter. Because the book is no longer valued for
it's contents, but as an art piece.

The most shocking thing to me about this article isn't about the theft
stories, but how there is a Cultural Heritage Squad police division. And that
they have in possession of the worlds rarest art pieces. One example is in the
millions stolen from a private home. Did the owner not even bother to call the
"lost and found" or are they the ones holding it? Why aren't the paintings
taken care of better in a climate controlled environment by professionals? And
WHY is EVIDENCE hung and frame on the wall in the police stations. Something
smells here to be frank.

------
adolph
_[The stolen letters] were found in the most surprising places. The letter
stolen from the Riccardiana Library in Florence turned up in, get this, the
U.S. Library of Congress. . ._

------
cdubzzz
Inspired by Lee Israel[0][1], perhaps?

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Israel)

[1]
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4595882/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4595882/)

------
gjsman-1000
Sounds almost like a plot from National Treasure (2004). Except it's Columbus
letters instead of the Constitution.

How rich was Columbus?

~~~
bryanrasmussen
[https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/christopher-
colu...](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/christopher-columbus-
dies)

"Although Columbus enjoyed a substantial revenue from Hispaniola gold during
the last years of his life, he repeatedly attempted (unsuccessfully) to gain
an audience with King Ferdinand, whom he felt owed him further redress."

So I'm thinking - well off, but not wealthy.

~~~
cma
His heirs also had 30 years of lawsuits or so:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleitos_colombinos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleitos_colombinos)

~~~
onetimemanytime
amazing that you could sue the King...

------
dang
There is also this from 2017:
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/24/sleuths-track-
ce...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/24/sleuths-track-centuries-
old-copy-letter-written-christopher/)

via
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15094537](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15094537)
(but no comments)

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ncmncm
Looks like this is really all old news. The thief might not even be alive
anymore.

Should be "Someone was ... ". Probably moved on to Gutenberg Bibles or
something. Which are harder to fake, but people are correspondingly less
likely to check.

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ronnier
Do digital copies exist?

~~~
varenc
Many!

This seems like a good English translation:
[http://www.ems.kcl.ac.uk/content/etext/e022.html](http://www.ems.kcl.ac.uk/content/etext/e022.html)

Wikipedia links to more:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus%27s_letter_on_the_fir...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus%27s_letter_on_the_first_voyage#Online_editions)

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ahvetm
When combined they yield a treasure map

~~~
irrational
To the mythical land of Alabama.

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timzaman
This happens all the time, and for decades, and is one of the prime reasons
why institutions digitize their collection.

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Sniffnoy
Non-AMP link: [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/christopher-columbus-letters-
st...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/christopher-columbus-letters-stolen-from-
vatican-libraries-around-the-world-60-minutes-2019-10-20/)

~~~
dang
Thanks—changed from [https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/christopher-columbus-
letter...](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/christopher-columbus-letters-
stolen-from-vatican-libraries-around-the-world-60-minutes-2019-10-20/). The
software missed that one for some reason.

~~~
flyGuyOnTheSly
What the...?

Google can host amp links on foreign domains?

~~~
Avamander
They might be using the Signed HTTP Exchanges functionality.

