
Secret State of North Korea [video] - bane
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365155890/
======
elipsey
This documentary is really good. It's impossible not to gawk like a tourist at
the pathological outcomes of the command econconmy, the wretched poverty, and
the Orwellian anti U.S. propaganda, for example posters depicting U.S.
soldiers pulling out the teeth of children with pliers, and executing Korean
civilians. The film is composed largely of real footage produced by
dissenters. No matter how cynical you might be of the demonization of "rouge
states" by U.S. media, I promise that you will moved by this very convincing
film.

I think Frontline is one of the last investigative journalism shows with real
integrity that is left; did you see that embarrassing puff piece a few weeks
ago where 60 Minutes licked the NSA's asshole for an hour?

The big footage of the Korean landscape is stunningly beautiful, and reminds
me of Vladivastock. Must watch.

Also, if you want to learn more about North Korea (at least from a quasi-
American perspective), please go watch "Crossing the Line"
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Line_%282006_film%...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Line_%282006_film%29))
a film about a U.S. Army soldier who defected to N. Korea, which was still on
Netfilx last time I checked. It will enlighten you, and also weird up your day
:)

~~~
belorn
Calling the posters propaganda would be true before 2001, but today I would
not call it that. They simply represent a simplification of how an NK conflict
with the U.S. army would look like.

For example, U.S. Soldiers don't use pliers for torture. They chain civilians
to prison ceilings instead and beat them to death. Alternative they use
simulated executions, rape, or sodomized civilians like in Abu Ghraib.

The posters about U.S. soldier executing Korean civilians is also a bit off.
Using guns to terrorize a population is slow and ineffective, as a 24/7 aerial
presence that can at any point send a explosive missile (like onto a wedding)
will have better effected on the population.

Not that it takes anything away from the message the documentary gives. Seeing
how bad NK has become is important, as most people seem to think that all that
horribleness went away after ww2/cold world.

~~~
tptacek
Interesting. What other North Korean state messages do you believe to be, at
root, basically true and honest?

~~~
steveklabnik
The state-run media actually puts out their daily articles in English, they're
pretty interesting to actually read.

Here's an example, from today:
[http://rodong.rep.kp/en/index.php?strPageID=SF01_02_01&newsI...](http://rodong.rep.kp/en/index.php?strPageID=SF01_02_01&newsID=2014-01-15-0006&chAction=T)

    
    
      > Above all, one must learn to see through the true nature of the freedom 
      > and democracy of the Western style. In a word, it is a sham democracy
      > and sham freedom. They are but a fig-leaf to cover up the reactionary
      > nature of bourgeois dictatorship and anti-popular character of the
      > capitalist system.
      > 
      > Much vaunted democracy of American pattern is no more than a slogan
      > for world supremacy, aggression and intervention. And their so-called
      > freedom gives a handful of the privileged a free hand to squeeze and
      > lord it over the majority of the popular masses.
    

I don't find this to be too particularly different from what many in our Left
say, except maybe in degree. I remember reading another one recently
discussing poverty statistics put out by our government, and they were source
accurate. You just won't hear our media saying "16 million children live in
food-insecure households," generally speaking. The spin is different, but the
numbers are the same.

I'm not saying that I find broad agreement with the DPRK, but I do think that
I tend to _also_ read what they have to say about news stories that involve,
and it's fascinating.

~~~
tptacek
The Nazis also had some mean things to say about the US, too.

~~~
belorn
And? Just the regular "the nazis is bad, so what ever comment I now associate
with it must be equally bad"?

Okey, lets talk about Nazis and World War 2. If the US would had used torture,
strip searches at the border, and a spy in every product and phone, I am sure
the Nazis would have a bunch to say about the US. Their news information about
bombings of civilian targets was surely not too far off from the truth (the US
used the same old argument that the enemy are hiding under hospitals, schools
and weddings then as now).

But thats all ancient history. Instead Lets ask us a simple question: If you
were a POW, under which countries would you fear for your life? The U.S. Is to
me on that list, which has some clear implication on the words like freedom,
democracy and "the good side".

~~~
tptacek
Given a choice between being a POW in the US or NK, your choice would be a
coin flip?

~~~
belorn
Please don't try use informal fallacies as a way to move the discussion. Such
arguments do not belong here, do not become you, and when ever one is written
a kitten cries somewhere in the world.

If my choice is between being a POW under the "care" of US, NK, China, Russia,
Belgium, Norway and Iceland, I would not pick the US. Would you?

Why asking such questions when the answer is obvious? It doesn't contribute
anything to a civil discussion. If the choice is between a country that
torture, and a country that do not, the choice is obvious. If one is asked to
pick between two countries that both perform torture, the obvious answer is to
not pick either.

The US has condone acts of torture. When it has not condone it officially,
they often refused to use the full force of the law against people who has
committed illegal, immoral, and plain evil acts against prisoners and
civilians.

Read the legal actions against those responsible for the Abu Ghraib torture,
and compare that to trials of personal who participated in Nazi army and
conducted similar act of torture and violent acts. How many people in the
world has just got a few years in prison for pleading guilty to torture, in a
place which deaths was ruled as homicide from torture?

------
mostlyalive
In case you can't watch it, here's a mirror:

    
    
        magnet:?xt=urn:btih:58d690227d4c88ba52673db6c5b08201150266c2&dn=frontline-northkorea.mp4&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80%2Fannounce

~~~
broolstoryco
Thanks for this, was having trouble finding it on tpb

------
simias
Blocked outside of the USA it seems. For a video about smuggled footage out of
North Korea I find it a bit ironic.

Quite frankly I find those regional restrictions as big a threat to the
internet as all the net neutrality issues discussed lately.

The internet shouldn't have borders.

~~~
reuven
You can use Unlocator ([http://unlocator.com/](http://unlocator.com/)) to get
around it. I've been using this for a number of months, and highly recommend
it. (And for now, at least, it's free!)

This is a practical workaround for what I agree is a stupid policy.

~~~
xelfer
If you use Chrome, Hola is pretty good and doesn't require a signup:
[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hola-better-
intern...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hola-better-
internet/gkojfkhlekighikafcpjkiklfbnlmeio?hl=en)

~~~
simias
Thank you for the help but I simply downloaded the torrent given elsewhere in
the comments.

I'm not really comfortable installing VPN software in my browser though,
especially when it's free...

It seems so easy to forget to deactivate it and have all your plaintext
traffic be highjacked by a third party. How do they pay for the VPN hosting
anyway if it's free?

~~~
tigroferoce
You can also buy some hw from say amazon or other and configure your vpn.

Amazon has a free usage tier which allows you 1 year of free micro instance
which is enough power to keep a VPN.

I bought a VM from RamNode for 12$/year and again is enough to run your VPN.

Then you can question whether Amazon or other service providers are safe
enough, but this is another story ...

------
tptacek
There's some amazing footage in this; at one point, someone with a hidden
camera visits a Potemkin department store in Pyongyang and tries to buy a
dress, and then some beer, only to be told that all the merchandise on display
is for display only.

~~~
dzink
We had those in Bulgaria for a number of years before the fall of communism.
They were restricted to use only by foreigners buying with foreign currency
and locals could only gawk, but never buy. As a child I remember seeing Kinder
Surprise eggs and Ritter Sport chocolates, and watching ads for Hot Wheels
toys and paint-by number sets I could never play with. It scars you for life.

Years later I saw paint by number sets at a store as an adult and then bought
two and spend a weekend doing just that, because I had been dreaming of doing
it for years. Ritter Sport is everywhere in the US now, but when I see it, I'm
just reminded of the misery of a childhood behind the iron curtain. It's gonna
be a loooong transition for the victims of the Kim regime.

~~~
herdrick
Actually, this is something else. Those foreigner-only, hard-currency-only
ones are sad enough, but this is much worse. There is no store. It's just
playacting.

~~~
kteofanidis
It wasn't even that. Locals were also allowed to buy as long as they had
foreign currency. While it was hard to get it was by no means impossible
(black market at 3-4 times the official rate). Of course if you bought
anything expensive or too often, questions would be asked.

------
reuven
If you're interested in North Korea (and I find myself increasingly fascinated
by it, perhaps because it's so different from anything I've ever experienced),
you should read Nothing to Envy
([http://nothingtoenvy.com/](http://nothingtoenvy.com/)), which describes life
in North Korea and the ways in which people manage to escape.

This was one of those books that had me saying, out loud, "Wow, I can't
believe it!" on nearly every page. It gave me a lot of insight into how they
live, and how hard it'll be for the regime there to change. It also made me
feel quite sorry for the people who are forced to live in North Korea, who
suffer starvation and abuse (physical and psychological) for the sake of the
regime.

------
spydum
So far the most interesting point they have made is that these guys are
smuggling in foreign media/tv and people are consuming it. The pitch is that
the latest box office hits (sky fall 007 was mentioned) are the best way to
influence N Korean culture. I guess I was surprised by this, but it does make
more sense than trying to give them hard truth, which they would more likely
reject due to their own cognitive dissonance.

This makes me wonder how our own media is manipulated to influence political
movements?

~~~
bane
> This makes me wonder how our own media is manipulated to influence political
> movements?

Something I've found very interesting is watching foreign news media and what
they report on and some of the externals that surround that reporting...then
reversing those observations to my own country's media. It's remarkable how
taking that outsider's viewpoint and turning it towards your own native media
can help you to understand where they're manipulative or not quite truthful
with things.

In my case, my wife is from South Korea and I get constant exposure to the
news (important and trivial) about her native country. There's lots of, to me,
obvious political influence in South Korean news. It took a few years, but
eventually I was able to convince my wife that this was happening. Of course
she had some inkling that it was happening, but the various phenomenon I was
pointing out to here had completely escaped her notice.

One of the most common in her country is to hide embarrassing political issues
with wall to wall coverage of a recent scandal that was just "discovered"
about some top-tier entertainer: it's usually a sex scandal, but it could be
tax evasion or gambling issues. Those entertainers then "retire" or disappear
for a couple years and inevitably stage a come back. The public's attention
span is so short that the political issue is quickly forgotten while the poor
singer or actor or whatever is drug through the press for a few weeks. It's
_very_ rare that a political issue will stay front and center over an
inconsequential starlet's sex video.

Over the years I've come to appreciate the very deep relationship the
government there has with the major production companies and broadcast
networks. It's changing slowly, independent media is starting to spring up on
cable networks and podcasts and such, but the overall homogeneity of South
Korean pop culture means that most people will still just go to their favorite
old media sources for most things anyways. The good news is that they aren't
really spreading lies, just choosing to suddenly report _at this very moment_
about something that doesn't matter at all when something that does matter is
being ignored -- so they can still say they have a free press and all that.

Recent protests and firings at some of the major broadcasting companies have
shown that this isn't nearly as true though.

Turning back on my country's media and I see similar tactics used. I think
we're a bit more subtle about it, it's not quite the clockwork mechanism that
I see in South Korea, but I think there's always some agenda to what gets
covered and when. I think the government influence on major media producers
here is just as deep, think about the flood of pure propaganda action movies
that came out during Reagan. They're hopelessly obvious these days, but I
don't remember them being such obvious propaganda back then.

These days, my wife and I play this game now when some outrageous, but largely
inconsequential, news start getting played up endlessly in our respective
countries. The game is called "what's _really_ going on?" And we remind each
other with this question that the game has started and we'll spend the next
hour or so digging into the internet to try and figure out what embarrassing
political situation is being glossed over so we can see an actress trip on
stage for the 800th time, or some singer spectacularly flame out in public.

I can think of no better example of this in action then this

[http://www.buzzfeed.com/ellievhall/19insert-word-here-
differ...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/ellievhall/19insert-word-here-differences-
between-time-magazine-us-and)

~~~
po
I'm also reminded of this Slate article where they reported on the US as if
they were reporting on a foreign country as an exercise in language:

[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2013/09/30/potential_g...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2013/09/30/potential_government_shutdown_how_would_the_u_s_media_report_on_it_if_it.html)

~~~
angersock
" _The current rebellion has been led by Sen. Ted Cruz, a young fundamentalist
lawmaker from the restive Texas region, known in the past as a hotbed of
separatist activity._ "

Why shucks, that's the nicest thing anyone has said about my state in recent
memory!

------
notdonspaulding
Towards the end of the film, they come to the conclusion that even though the
collective mindset of NK citizens is changing, it won't necessarily result in
a cultural revolution. It seems the primary thing keeping real change from
happening is that North Koreans can't trust their family friends to not turn
them in, and if they do somehow know who to trust, they can't gather in groups
to talk or organize any activities.

This seems like a technical problem, no?

What would a "social network" (for lack of a better term) look like that
enabled citizens to feel each other out and establish a network of trusted
individuals? Could it be made resilient to breaches? That is, if one person
were to divulge their communications with the state, how could the damage be
limited?

It wouldn't even have to enable communication outside the border. It would be
a boon if all it did was to let insiders organize over the country's cell
network.

~~~
jlgaddis
At some point, in order for change to actually occur, things would have to
move "off-line" and people would be forced to meet in public, wouldn't they?

Assuming the group had been infiltrated (or monitored), it seems like that
might very well be the end of the group.

~~~
lhl
I think that in the NK scenario, meeting offline would be one of the last
things that would happen. Just being able to anonymously communicate with each
other would be pretty revolutionary, as so much of the way the society
functions is based on lies that unravel once people can access/share/discuss
outside information.

It seems like once there's enough popular support, it'd be a lot easier -
there are a lot more of the populace than the ruling class?

Cory Doctorow actually writes the most plausible scenario (and pitfalls) of
bootstrapped online/offline coordination that I've read in Little Brother...
based on how NK works, infiltration of any group, infiltration is probably a
given. The real question would be whether the gov't could respond if the
majority of the population were all conspiring in groups. Are there enough
secret police to execute/arrest everyone all at once?

------
tomca32
While the footage is great, I hoped the documentary would be a bit deeper.
It's still the same thing: "Look at poor North Koreans".

The most informative video I've ever seen about NK is this lecture:
[http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/292562-1](http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/292562-1)

It's really worth watching it if you're interested in why and how NK came to
be the way it is.

~~~
Loughla
Read "The Impossible State: North Korea, Past and Future" for a better run-
down of how NK came to be.

It only has one chapter on the 'holy crap look how terrible it is.' The rest
of the book is about the history, NK's placement in world politics, and really
how the nation came to be.

Fascinating, and avoids the stereotypical conversations about North Korea.

~~~
tomca32
That sounds great and exactly what I'm interested in. Thanks for the
recommendation.

------
austinl
I would also recommend watching the (somewhat less official) footage from
Vice's trip to North Korea - they film what is shown to average tourists that
are allowed to visit, and it's easy to tell how much of it is staged.

[http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-
to-n...](http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-
korea-1-of-3)

------
auctiontheory
If you are interested in North Korea, read _The Orphan Master 's Son_.
Fiction, but based on true stories. Won the 2013 Pulitzer Prize for fiction.
(I've heard the audiobook is excellent, but the book is quite graphic, so the
audio could be a little "intense." I didn't risk it.)

------
cabinguy
I watched this last night and thought it was really good - but the entire time
I couldn't help but think about this propaganda video put out by North Korea:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoQOQHQ8oA](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoQOQHQ8oA)

~~~
tptacek
That's a hoax. You didn't start wondering when they said "there are no birds
except these ones, which will be eaten on Tuesday; they are yummy"?

~~~
cabinguy
Yes, the interpreter says that and I found it strange. I don't speak Korean so
I don't know if that's what the narrator said or meant (you can hear her in
the background). How do you know this is a hoax and not real propaganda out of
North Korea?

Edit: You're correct. It was a hoax.

------
coupdejarnac
There was a live chat today with the former CIA analyst Sue Mi Terry, and she
said the average height of a North Korean soldier is 4'9". Not too imposing.
They do not have adequate resources to feed their people, let alone to project
power.

~~~
Loughla
But they have one metric shit-ton of soldiers.

It's like ants; size of the individual doesn't matter when there's a million
of you.

------
eevilspock
I'm not claiming that the United States or other capitalist countries are as
bad off as North Korea. I'd no doubt put North Korea in my top 10 places not
to live. But I'd like to point out that many of the scenes of poverty and a
privileged elite could also be filmed in the United States. For example, see
the five part Desani series on a homeless child in New York:
[http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/invisible-
child/#/?chap...](http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/invisible-
child/#/?chapt=1)

------
adamnemecek
Having used the internet for the last maybe 16 years, I've seen a lot of
disturbing shit but I could not finish watching this.

------
Nanzikambe
pbs.org videos are US only. Any links for the rest of the world?

~~~
ghuntley

        magnet:?xt=urn:btih:58d690227d4c88ba52673db6c5b08201150266c2&dn=frontline-northkorea.mp4&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80%2Fannounce

~~~
Nanzikambe
You sir, are a gentleman & a scholar.

------
msane
All they need are data-phones and sims. Soon they will have the ability to
communicate with less risk and in "town square" web venues like twitter and
forums. I think it's a hard counter to the situation there. Collapse in under
5 years.

~~~
broolstoryco
i think you underestimate the degree of control the state has (data-phones?
what data? what network?), as well as the extent of brainwashing of the
population

~~~
lhl
According to this report, NK's 3G network is about to hit 2M subscribers
(almost 10% of the population):
[http://www.northkoreatech.org/2013/04/26/koryolink-
nears-2-m...](http://www.northkoreatech.org/2013/04/26/koryolink-
nears-2-million-subscribers/)

It mentions offering (NK-only) web browsing and most people have dumbphones,
but there is a network there. I think it'd be pretty suicidal to conspire
using that though as I'm sure it's monitored.

I think there's probably a lot more dissent than you're assuming, but agin,
it'd be suicidal to express it if one of your neighbors would just rat you
out.

Apparently, smuggling in Chinese and increasingly South Korean smart phones is
already quite common: [http://newfocusintl.com/chinese-mobile-phone-dominates-
north...](http://newfocusintl.com/chinese-mobile-phone-dominates-north-korea/)
[http://www.rfa.org/english/news/korea/smartphones-1114201318...](http://www.rfa.org/english/news/korea/smartphones-11142013185158.html)

I posted earlier about this, but it seems that these phones would be pretty
valuable as media playing devices - preload kiwix w/ KR wikipedia etc - it'd
allow you to much more easily/discretely distribute/exchange microSD cards.

Some sort of mesh protocol could be incredibly effective in allow
communication while maintaining anonymity. But any sort of message
passing/communication would have to be designed under the assumption that it's
being monitored.

------
dmorre
some might take this

"wget
ga.video.cdn.pbs.org/cove2.0/frontline/773e4c49-c6a6-47a0-b075-7f298847a106/2014-01-14-201639/hd-
mezzanine-16x9/00003206-16x9-hls-400k-00001.ts"

and iterate to *00323.ts

~~~
alvesjnr
tks

