
What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead guilty - radmuzom
https://www.propublica.org/article/what-does-an-innocent-man-have-to-do-alford-plea-guilty
======
joeax
I have first-hand experience in this area. Someone close to me was accused of
a crime she didn't commit. The police officer was hell bent on arresting her
on the worst possible charge. At her initial hearing, the public defenders
were flippant and detached, and generally unhelpful. After she hired a
criminal defense lawyer, he more or less forced her to take a crappy plea deal
that he negotiated (and made the prosecutors look like winners). If she did
not, it would mean tens of thousands of dollars to defend herself.

The flaws I personally witnessed through the ordeal:

1\. The police have arrest quotas, and enormous pressure to "make the arrest"
regardless of the cost, or whether the person is actually guilty.

2\. Criminal defense lawyers love the system as-is and will fight to protect
it. More arrests mean more business. An absolute worst conflict of interest
that you can imagine.

3\. Public defenders will do the minimum amount of work, and will always
strong-arm you to take a plea deal.

4\. The whole system is rigged against you. You are guilty the moment you
first enter the court room. Nobody cares whether you are really guilty or not
- judges, lawyers, prosecutors, clerks, cops.

5\. The worst part of all - there is a strong groupthink among these power
players. They wholeheartedly believe they are living gods, protecting the
world from societies ills.

My hope is that one day there is true criminal justice reform. The fact that
America has the largest incarceration rate is a red flag.

~~~
joeax
I want to extend my comment. The big takeaway from all of this is that to beat
the system, you need to be prepared to defend yourself at all costs, to the
very end. The system depends on everyone taking plea deals. It's a well-oiled
machine where by taking the plea deal, everyone wins but you. The defense
lawyer made his money, the prosecutor gets their "win". The judge looks "tough
on crime" for their next election. The cop gets a plaque for locking up lots
of people.

My advice: Save some money. Just like a car accident, or some health or other
emergency, it's best to be prepared with some kind of emergency fund.

~~~
lobotryas
Does anyone know if there are insurance policies for this? Something like life
insurance where you pay monthly and if you need a defense attorney because you
are accused of something you will receive a capped sum of money for that
purpose.

~~~
joeax
Funny you ask. I looked into this very thing when I became involved in this
situation. There are pre-paid legal services like LegalShield, but most will
only cover 20-25% of the cost. This represents a possible startup opportunity
IMO.

~~~
KekDemaga
I feel like you'd suffer heavily from adverse selection.

~~~
lobotryas
You mean folks who already decided they will commit crimes and take out
insurance for "free" money?

That's a good point. This is where working with experienced actuaries to build
risk models will be important. This idea would not be a tech startup per say.
Just a good 'ol insurance policy with a shiny iOS app wrapper :)

~~~
rplst8
Yeah, I could see this turning into a nightmare scenario where you waive
privacy rights and carry a tracking device everywhere so they know you have an
alibi. Sort of like how car insurance companies offer those plug in things to
monitor your driving habits to lower your premium.

~~~
theseatoms
Has this already occurred? Has anyone been able to use their phone's location
history for their alibi? The data exists. Isn't this what subpoenas are for?

~~~
jandrese
It's not the best alibi since your phone isn't physically attached to your
body. Someone intending to commit a crime can easily drop their phone
somewhere else to conceal their true location.

~~~
honestlyreally
That's quite a complex plan, especially if the phone in question is making
http requests and taking calls.

------
superjustice
I often think there should be a superhero archangel comic character that is a
ruthless defender of justice. I don't understand the mentality of prosecutors,
nor the judges, public defenders and others who are also complacent in an evil
system.

I have had three encounters with law enforcement, the first ended in similar
fashion to this story. I was charged with a crime I didn't commit which
happened to occur on video.

After 18-months, and threats of serious felony charges, I refused to accept a
plea. I asked my lawyer if it was illegal to plead guilty to a crime I didn't
commit and he said it was.

The prosecutor then says, "the state moves to drop the case citing lack of
evidence". Again, the crime (theft) was recorded on videotape and two other
guys I didn't know clearly stole the items involved. I won but the court
wouldn't actually let me win.

Another time I was caught in an unfortunate incident where a security guard
pushed me into a street. I was tackled, tasered, later choked, threatened to
be killed and then powerslammed head first on concrete by Detective of the
Year, Glenn A. Ritchie, of the Broward County Sheriff's Office.

Ritchie charged me with non-violent misdemeanors and then a day later, alleged
felonies in a contradictory and clearly false 2nd police report. I spent
34-days in jail until the charges were non-filed but not until the felony was
refiled as a misdemeanor, sent to the wrong address, resulting in a still
standing capias warrant for my arrest.

The system is flawed. People who work in the courts, especially in major
cities, are not to be celebreated but derided. It's an insane system of high
bails, boilerplate plea deals and cold indifference.

~~~
epmaybe
A mentor of mine who used to work for a government agency once told me
something that I hadn't really appreciated until recently. To paraphrase,
sometimes the best way to change a system that is flawed is to work from
within. It's harder, sure, since it takes time to get enough power to make
effective change, but it's an idea nonetheless.

~~~
geofft
Obligatory New Yorker cartoon: [https://condenaststore.com/featured/he-feels-
he-can-do-more-...](https://condenaststore.com/featured/he-feels-he-can-do-
more-good-working-alex-gregory.html)

Out of curiosity, are there good examples of fundamental/systemic flaws --
where it's not that the system needs to be fixed, it's that a _new system_ is
needed -- being fixed by people working within the system? The success rate of
violent, armed revolution is low, but it has produced some concrete successes
(e.g., the existence of the US and more generally the fall of monarchy).

~~~
saalweachter
The US is a weird example of an armed revolution because it was a colonial
revolt largely by people who already had power and were part of the colonial
governments. The layer of government that was being scraped off was relatively
thin, locally. For example, both Washington and Jefferson were in the Virginia
House of Burgesses, and they're just the first two I googled to find out the
details of their pre-Revolutionary political careers.

If the Confederacy had succeeded in seceding, it would have been a very
similar revolution - the state governments on down would remain intact, with
just a little bit at the top being rearranged. I'm not sure I could name a
third, similar armed revolution off the top of my head; most of the ones I'm
familiar with involve charismatic outsiders burning down the existing
institutions and starting over fresh.

~~~
geofft
That's a good point - the leaders of the American Revolution were already
"working within the system," they just _also_ led a violent revolt. I think
there's a good point to be made that that's one of the best ways to make sure
that you can successfully burn the existing system down and put what you want
in place.

------
baldfat
We need to reinvent our criminal justice system. The wrong people are
punished.

If you get arrested the best thing is if you are clearly wrong rather than
innocent. Trying to defend yourself will only get you in four times more
trouble. It appears Judges will through the book at people for having a trial
by jury.

Plea Bargains are also given to criminals when they are caught red handed on
video camera.

My adopted children's mom was murdered with a baseball bat by one of my son's
biological father. He then knocked on my door at 8 AM but thankfully I was out
of town with his biological son. He got 20 - 40 and can have parole in 16.

Then I have my friend accused by someone with zero evidence except a changing
accusation over 9 months. He was offered 18 months I begged and even cried
telling him to take the deal. "Why should I take the deal when I never did
anything wrong?" 18 month plea became 12 YEARS!

~~~
jakelarkin
the issue is its impossible for the state to afford to provide a jury trial to
everyone that is currently eligible. A trial has >5 paid professionals
involved, plus the jurors, there just isn't enough time or money to process
the case load.

the courts/prosecutors, out of necessity, have set up a shadow system of
pressuring most defendants into plea bargains based on the relative strength
of their case, which would be fine except the rules around this are weak and
its ripe for abuse by the lazy or career/politically motivated.

At some point we'll need to admit this and draw up a better system for minor
felonies.

~~~
CaptSpify
I wonder how much we could free up the courts if we stopped wasting time on
useless laws?

Example (that is drenched in personal opinion): How much time would we save
the courts if we stopped prosecuting people for personal drug abuse?

~~~
scarmig
It's an appealing story to think that the main reason the courts and prisons
are so overburdened is personal drug use. Since most (of us) agree that
rehabilitation or laissez-faire is better than imprisonment, we get to solve
another huge problem by adopting our preferred solution.

Unfortunately, they're not particularly complicated cases, and drug offenders
only make up like a sixth of the prison population. So, it'd help, but the USA
would still be a huge outlier internationally, let alone among developed
Western countries.

~~~
CaptSpify
> It's an appealing story to think that the main reason the courts and prisons
> are so overburdened is personal drug use.

I don't believe this at all (simply due to lack of evidence), which is why I
phrased it as a question. Additionally, it's just an example, in which I tried
to be clear that my personal beliefs make me biased in. Feel free to
substitute your own "useless prosecution" in it's place |;)

That being said, 1/6 seems like a pretty hefty amount.

------
Clubber
The West Memphis Three (of whom Paradise Lost) was about entered Alford pleas.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three)

Here's why prosecutors seek it:

 _As part of the plea deal, the three men cannot pursue civil action against
the state for wrongful imprisonment._

~~~
caseysoftware
This should be upvoted because it's the key in this whole thing. It's a
complete cover-your-ass move that attempts to hide the entire thing as quickly
and easily as possible.

And if you think about it.. if they _really_ thought this person was a
murderer, letting them out would not be on the table.

Personally, I believe that if a prosecutor wrongly pursues a case, hides
evidence, whatever and gets a conviction. When the sentence is overturned, it
should be applied to the prosecution. It might teach some respect for the
power they're throwing around.

* Yes, I know that won't work. :(

~~~
Clubber
It's interesting that politicians make things illegal without funding the
prosecution and imprisonment that comes as a result of making things illegal.
I read somewhere that it costs up to $245K for a state to try a case in court.

In Florida, they actually charge the defendant the cost of prosecuting him.
What the hell?!

[https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/florida/statutes/florida...](https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/florida/statutes/florida_statutes_938-27)

------
wonderwonder
The major issue with our justice system is that it is connected to a large
portion of the economy. Sending people to jail, and making them pay fines
generates money for a lot of entities. Until this is remedied the poor will
continue to be treated as fuel for the legal machine.

If you are poor and charged with a crime you cannot afford a good attorney and
you will more than likely be forced to plea and get either fined or jail time.
Once you have been convicted your upward mobility will be retarded and the
cycle will repeat.

On top of that, the bail system is used to enforce this cycle. A poor person
is arrested, and bail is set at $5k. They cannot afford it so they sit in jail
awaiting trial. They will plea guilty out of desperation just to get out of
jail and try to get back to work to support their family. (Guilty plea does
not necessitate prison)

The whole system is rigged to punish the poor and allow the rich to purchase a
get out of jail card.

------
24gttghh
Just recently on TAL[0] was a depressingly similar case (from 1980); a kid is
accused of a murder he did not commit by a pathological liar (the only
"witness"), and who, not seeing the logic in admitting guilt for something he
did not do, is therefore not eligible for parole later down the road:

[0][https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/282/...](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/282/diy)

The 15 year old who did commit the murder was actually caught too, and also
prosecuted at the _same trial_ , but he would not take his own plea deal,
which would have freed the innocent accused.

edit: some grammar.

~~~
maxxxxx
I remember that episode. It's mind boggling that you have all these people in
the justice system going through their procedures but nobody does anything
when something goes blatantly wrong.

~~~
24gttghh
The police and prosecutors in that case are explicitly to blame for basically
being lazy and forcing the first suspect they found to be the one they
prosecute, irregardless of the evidence which would not support their claim.

------
randcraw
"Ninety-seven percent of [US] federal convictions and ninety-four percent of
state convictions are the results of guilty pleas."

[https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-
bargainin...](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargaining-
and-the-innocent#.kS7dr5qFV)

Definitely time to get the lawyers OUT of government.

~~~
16bytes
While your link raises a number of interesting arguments, that statistic
doesn't stand by itself.

By and large, the vast majority of people that appear before the courts _are_
guilty. If the guilty/not-guilty split were 50/50, it would indicate
completely indiscriminate policing.

So, to make a determination about the false-guilty pleas, we'd need some data
those in particular. That is to say, that statistic combines true-guilty and
false-guilty, so you can't make an argument that too many people are forces to
plea guilty. At least with that statement alone.

~~~
randcraw
True. That invites the question, can we know what proportion of the prosecuted
are guilty? I think we can, but we would need to hire a pool of people to
secretly serve as test subjects -- to commit a crime (or not) then be charged
for it (or not) and tried for it, and only reveal their true status after
their case reached a verdict.

Only then could we get a good idea how fair the legal system really is. The
invention of such a clandestine "Justice League" would be a pretty interesting
way to measure whether any local or national police/justice system is fair and
effective.

------
maxxxxx
I thought that's pretty much standard procedure for low level drug offenses:
"please guilty and get only a few years or go to trial and risk 30 years". The
rational decision is most likely to go for a few years and not risk the 30. In
my view plea bargains should be abolished and everyone should go to trial.

~~~
damnfine
But very few go to trial because the courts cannot afford to try that many
cases. So, like most social issues, where does the money come from?

Edit: I want to be clear. I agree with your point, but observing the obvious
roadblock to implementation.

~~~
24gttghh
The Eighth Amendment requires that citizens be given a speedy and public
trial.

Very few go to trial because of false-carrots-on-a-stick plea deals to throw
someone away without the trial, because the prosecutors know the trial may not
go for them.

I wonder if it could be argued that plea deals deprive a citizen of their
right to a speedy trial, and are therefore unconstitutional?

~~~
vacri
Some amendments are more strongly enforced than others. Also, it's the 6th
that's a speedy trial. The 8th is the equally-ignored excessive fines and
punishment.

At least the 3rd is still going strong!

~~~
24gttghh
Oh whoops I read them out of order in the list talking about the drafting of
The Constitution. It may have been the 8th in an original list but two below
it were not ratified. I am not worthy!

------
ArchReaper
Our legal system is a giant pile of shit, and anyone who thinks otherwise is
either woefully misinformed or trying to line their own interests.

~~~
visarga
The proper way to use it is to be rich. The justice lady might be blind but
she can hear the sound of money. /s

------
mpweiher
Did I mention that the US is no longer a country where the rule of law
applies?

------
pc2g4d
In the long term I believe it will make sense to treat criminal prosecutions
and trials as a classification problem. Given these facts and this evidence,
is person X innocent or guilty of the crime?

It seems tools are being developed right now to assess the effectiveness of
the current system, innocence projects, etc. So there should also now be a
possibility of developing a new and better algorithm for trial. A machine
learning algorithm that's better than all this human complexity at determining
who did it, and can explain why it came to its conclusions.

Computational law.

------
pasbesoin
A system that doesn't honestly and unbiased-ly make its best effort to seek
the truth, is not justice.

------
Shivetya
just remember this when watching investigations as well, those tend to only be
news worthy when high profile figures are involved but the rules are the same.
you don't have to be guilty, just not rich enough to defend yourself.

------
gourou
Did the page receive a HN hug of death? I can't access it

------
drostie
Google cache, as I'm getting a "503 first byte timeout":

[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kM07g3...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kM07g30KfYwJ:https://www.propublica.org/article/what-
does-an-innocent-man-have-to-do-alford-plea-guilty+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

