
How Parents Around the World Describe Their Children, in Charts - colinismyname
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/04/how-parents-around-the-world-describe-their-children-in-charts/274955/
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kijin
When I saw the graphs, what I immediately noticed was _not_ how much emphasis
parents place on intelligence, but rather how much emphasis they place on
conformity. The article talks about both, but it talks more about the former
than the latter. But I find the latter a lot more interesting.

Terms like "agreeable", "socially mature", and "well balanced" (versus
"attention seeking", presumably a bad thing) can signify that parents place
quite a bit of importance on how well their children conform to social norms
and expectations. The article mentions bedtime rules, but this can also extend
to long-entrenched traditions in "Old World" societies.

On the other hand, the fact that American parents don't use these terms, and
instead use terms like "independent" and "rebellious", shows that American
culture places a high value on thinking and living outside of the box. The
lack of "calm" and "happy" might make life more stressful for parents and
children alike, but at the same time, the term "adaptable" implies that
Americans expect the world around them to change quickly, and when it does,
you gotta change, too. America is newer and changes faster. It's not
surprising that Americans value qualities that make people innovative,
disruptive, and not bound by any rule that they didn't make by themselves.

As a person who has lived half his life in a society where being "well
rounded", conformity, and obedience to authority are considered a child's
primary virtues, I must confess that I am rather partial to the "American"
style, tradition be damned.

Edit: There also seems to be a relevant difference between Northern/Western
Europe and Southern Europe, just as there is a large cultural difference
between Northeastern/Western U.S. and the Southeast. So maybe the comparison
should be between industrial regions and traditionally agricultural regions,
or between relatively secular regions and deeply religions regions, rather
than between America and Europe as a whole. Seems obvious in some ways.

~~~
HarryHirsch
> As a person who has lived half his life in a society where being "well
> rounded", conformity, and obedience to authority are considered a child's
> primary virtues, I must confess that I am quite partial to the American
> style, tradition be damned.

My observation is that the value placed on conformity is the US is astounding.
Just take a look at the undergrad girls on any university campus. They all
look so alike; it is almost as if they were wearing uniform, it's staggering.
Also: the importance of "rules".

~~~
kijin
Compared to most other parts of the world except Northern Europe, I would say
that American campuses teem with diversity. I agree with you that there's _not
enough_ diversity, but there's still a lot of it.

Just take a look at the undergrads in a Chinese/Japanese/Korean university.
It's as if they belonged to some sort of military organization.

~~~
anigbrowl
The relative ethnic homogeneity in those societies is a factor here, I think.
I might be harder for an outsider to appreciate the diversity of what
superficially seems to be a very similar group of people.

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SoftwareMaven
Putting your kids on a schedule is probably the best thing you can do as a
parent to ensure your sanity and to keep your kids happy. Kids really do like
repetitive behavior, and a good schedule is one of those[1].

There are few things that help you cope with those really challenging
parenting days like knowing your kids are going to be in bed at 8pm, with 30
minutes of relaxing parent/child time before that. Knowing _you_ get a break
is immensely empowering.

I cringe for the kids when I see them walking around the grocery store with
their parents at 11pm. It doesn't surprise me that so many kids are unable to
concentrate[2] when they are sleep deprived, overly stimulated, and jacked up
on sugar (Lucky Charms is 40% sugar. Baby formula has more sugar than Coke.).

All that said, my kids are smart. ;) But what really excites me about my kids
is watching them find and explore their interests. The word I would use to
describe them is "unique".

1\. Sorry, no academic research to back it up. Lots of anecdotal experience
from my own kids and those of others who have come to my wife and I for
advice. Also, just look at how many times a kid can watch the same movie over
and _over_ again. :)

2\. My wife works as a pediatric nurse. I have no doubt there are many kids
(and adults for that matter) who are wired very differently and need help to
fit into society's notion of how a kid should behave. I also think that we are
doing massive damage to kids by all the sugar we feed them, especially in
liquid form, whether it's milkshake formula or Mountain Dew, and that damage
is showing up as a slew of problems, from obesity and Type II diabetes to
cognitive issues. However, those are going to be exceedingly difficult to
prove, and powerful interests (from the USDA to food producers) will do
everything they can to distract people from proving it.

~~~
dllthomas
> Baby formula has more sugar than Coke.

Based on the nutrition info I found with a couple minutes googling, this seems
incorrect.

[http://productnutrition.thecoca-
colacompany.com/products/coc...](http://productnutrition.thecoca-
colacompany.com/products/coca-cola)

<http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/baby-foods/440/2>

<http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/baby-foods/452/2>

The second one there comes close, but they all seem to be in the same basic
range as human breast milk:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_breast_milk#Composition>

~~~
pyre
It's kind of funny that there is the whole formula-vs-breast-milk debate.
Especially since there are so many people that have this odd notion that
formula is safer than breast milk (some even thinking that breast milk is
detrimental to a child's health -- e.g. "Your child will die or have defects
if you feed it breast milk").

The truth is that formula is useful as a substitute for breast milk, but it's
not a complete substitute. We should probably be leaning towards breast milk
unless there is a reason not to.

We should probably rid ourselves of notions like:

* Formula is _obviously_ better than breast milk because... _science!_

* Feeding your baby formula is a sign of wealth (much like wet-nurses in the past) because only poor people that can't afford formula breast-feed (i.e. breast milk is 'free' therefore obviously isn't as good).

* Breast-feeding is harmful to children because seeing a breast will scar them for life.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
I believe the first two were injected into our culture through a lot of
marketing dollars paid by the companies selling formula. I find it odd that
people could believe food companies could do better in 40 years than nature
did in millions of years of evolution or God did in designing people (take
your pick, breast milk still seems arguably better).

One of my kids was raised on formula, the others had it to augment breast
milk. I don't think there is anything wrong with using formula, but I do think
the majority of the inexpensive formula out there isn't much different that
giving your baby liquified lucky charms.

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davewasmer
A fantastic example of horrible information visualization. Those bar charts
are almost useless. The colors don't seem to correspond to anything, the
ranking is apparently random, and the x-axis scale varies wildly, making
cross-country comparisons an exercise in mental arithmetic.

~~~
Bill_Dimm
I came here to say exactly that. They make a point of using the same colors in
each chart (mostly), giving the illusion of some correspondence, but the
colors mean something different for each chart. For example, "Difficult" and
"Agreeable" are the same color in the first two charts.

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radicalbyte
From what I remember from my childhood in the UK, I'd say that Britain is very
close to America. Everyone focussed on "intellect" there, and my friends there
broadly use the American strategies (hyper + TV).

I've noticed the difference in The Netherlands. My wife was just this
afternoon planning the bedtime rooster for our first child (due in
September!). I put it down to her Dutch tick for planning/organization.

What is true is that the maternity/paternity system here is awesome: it's like
society has accepted that yes, people do have kids. And, if we all want to
keep working (and share the job of raising the nippers), then we need to make
some pragmatic decisions. Like be flexible with work time, and have subsidised
childcare.

~~~
staticfish
After living in both countries my whole life, as a Brit, I can honestly say
that Britain is not very close to America at all. Maybe on the surface, the
popular culture (mostly because of Hollywood & TV) and the language are
similar, but that's about where the main similarities end, and the subtitles
begin.

What George Bernard Shaw said was true. England and America _are_ two
countries separated by a common language.

~~~
ims
I'd be very interested to hear you expand on this.

~~~
staticfish
Because i'm not eloquent or articulate, I'll refer you to my favourite travel
writer - Mr. Bill Bryson. He's lived in both countries his whole life and has
made a living writing about the (mostly funny) subcultures of each.

I recommend starting with "Notes from a small island".

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startupfounder
Upon first review it was quite interesting to compare how countries perceive
themselves, but when trying to compare countries to each other I realized that
the x-axis and y-axis are different for each country.

For example the first quote says "A fascinating new study reveals that
Americans are more likely to call their children 'intelligent'", but in fact a
higher percentage of parents in Australia say their children are more
intelligent.

Parents in Spain think their kids are really really easy.

~~~
adaml_623
Australia gets a mention but after that I think it just gets lumped in with
Europe. You don't think they got confused with Austria do you?

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drblast
I always wonder how much of the attitude measured among modern parents in the
U.S. is due to the number of people who have an only child, and do so later in
life.

When you have more than one child, I think you're more realistic about their
personalities and capabilities, because you can compare them. When you have
just one, everything they do is extraordinary. When you have more, you see
them more as a bunch of morons who get things right occasionally through
random chance.

Not to mention, since we in the U.S. don't typically have large broods, most
people have very little experience with children at all and are shocked at
what they are capable of, because it doesn't really fit with the preconceived
notion of what a "child" is.

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adnam
Not a single mention of "whinging sods", which makes me suspect this study is
inaccurate.

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dmlorenzetti
An interesting read is "Our Babies, Ourselves: How Biology and Culture Shape
the Way We Parent" by Meredith Small.

It touches on a lot of the ideas in this article, in much greater depth, and
looking across a wider range of cultures and continents.

In short, if you find this article interesting, I would highly recommend the
book.

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sax
Is there a relationship between the colors on the graphs? Every graph has
different value scale. Hard to compare values between graphs, which is the
whole point of the article.

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ScottWhigham
Fascinating narrative but was this a true "research study" in which hundreds
or thousands of families were given the same questions? I can't find it in the
study text, which reads more like a book chapter than a study. I can't find it
in the article, nor do I see it in the Slate interview.

Can anyone else find the actual text that says, "We surveyed this many
families and asked them these specific questions"?

~~~
e2e8
It reads like a book chapter because it is a book chapter:

"Themes and Variations: Parental Ethnotheories in Western Cultures ... to
appear in: Rubin, K. (Ed.), Parental beliefs, parenting, and child development
in cross-cultural perspective. New York: Psychology Press."

[http://brown.edu/Departments/Human_Development_Center/Roundt...](http://brown.edu/Departments/Human_Development_Center/Roundtable/Harkness.pdf)

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afterburner
So, considering parent bias, does this basically show what each cultures'
parents value in their kids, or perhaps in people in general?

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zevyoura
Another similar and interesting set of data to look at is baby naming trends.
Freakonomics Radio's most recent episode covers the subject with some depth:
[http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/04/08/how-much-does-your-
na...](http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/04/08/how-much-does-your-name-matter-
a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/)

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maxerickson
The language in the Atlantic blag is out of control. The free language study
used 60 families from each region, so maybe 120 descriptions.

So the difference between 5% and 10% is 5 or 6 or 7 of the participants, not
"far more likely" and such.

A reasonable conclusion from the study is that people don't particularly use
common descriptions for their children.

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btipling
The study:

[http://brown.edu/Departments/Human_Development_Center/Roundt...](http://brown.edu/Departments/Human_Development_Center/Roundtable/Harkness.pdf)

I don't see anything about controlling for variables, experiment design,
confidence intervals etc. This is an ethnographic study, not a random survey.
Don't treat it like one.

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tnuc
Happy doesn't even rate on the American graph.

A lot of American parents I meet go on and on about how smart and fantastic
their children are. They even have bumper stickers announcing that their
offspring are honor students at some school. I never hear about how they are
well adjusted and happy.

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xyproto
To work longer hours is NOT the same as being more industrious, as suggested
by the article.

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colmvp
Strange that they didn't conduct any studies in parts of Asia, what with the
cultural differences between East and West.

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elliott34
am I the only one bothered that these charts arn't sorted...

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trhtrsh
n = 10 per country.

"Any other armchair ethnographers care to weigh in?"

Indeed.

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switch33
Somehow I find that "easy" attitude to mean something different. lol.

Especially since there is not really any context to it. Also kind of strange
how the only ones who are rebellious are US?

~~~
StavrosK
I don't know, it seems pretty clear to me that it means "easy to manage/low-
maintenance".

We can't tell if the only ones who are rebellious are US, from the article.
What we _can_ tell is that US parents consider their children rebellious.

