
Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst - giles_corey
https://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-038.shtml
======
polythrowaway
I was a team leader at a USSOCOM unit and had to take a poly to be read into a
couple of three-letter agency programs. In the middle of the test, the smug 23
year old fresh college grad administering the thing tells me I'm being
deceptive and obviously support jihadi terrorism. This as I'm getting ready to
leave on my 12th deployment. I've never wanted to so violently break someone's
face as right then in that moment.

~~~
forapurpose
> This as I'm getting ready to leave on my 12th deployment

Unfortunately, people with far better credentials have been traitors and
spies. Kim Philby, Aldrich Ames, and Robert Hanssen come to mind. IIRC, at
least one was even given a pass on his polygraph test because of his
credentials. Recently, Michael Flynn was a Lt General, head of the Defense
Intelligence Agency, and National Security Advisor (to be clear, he is
convicted only of lying to the FBI, AFAIK).

EDIT: Added to Flynn's credentials

~~~
oldgradstudent
Funny you should mention Aldrich Ames. The New York Times reported that:

> Three years later, at the start of his career as a Russian mole, Aldrich
> Ames passed a Central Intelligence Agency lie detector test. In 1991, he
> passed another, even though he was on the agency's list of suspected moles
> and living at a level far above his $70,000 Government salary. Last summer,
> Dennis DeConcini, then chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee,
> visited Mr. Ames in jail and asked how he passed the exams. _" Well," Mr.
> Ames replied, "they don't work."_

[https://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/19/opinion/lie-detectors-
lie...](https://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/19/opinion/lie-detectors-lie-tell-the-
cia.html)

He also wrote a very interesting letter about polygraph testing:

[https://fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/ames.html](https://fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/ames.html)

~~~
forapurpose
Interesting, thanks.

Why was Ames given a pass on the other signs of risk? Because of his
credentials?

~~~
oldgradstudent
It's been a few years since I've read a book on Ames, but as far as I recall
he had some plausible deniability - he claimed the money came from his father
in law.

But if I recall correctly, he was also surprised it took so long.

------
polyfolly
Throw away account. I get one every 5 years for my clearances. After having
several, I view it as just another BS hoop to jump.

Obviously it does not work as a lie detector, but it’s an excellent tool for
interrogation. At least that’s my conclusion.

Just answer yes and no. They’ll say you are almost done, but have an issue
with one question, and want you to explain more. Don’t explain anything; just
say “I don’t know“ and you are answering truthfully. Just stay relaxed, calm,
and bored.

~~~
throwawaypolly
Throwaway as well.

FWIW I would estimate that 85% of my colleagues that discuss their poly
experience view it as the same.

It is an interrogation prop masquerading as science. The poly is subjective,
as evident by the few times I have failed, re-tested, and passed. If I were
lying the first time and did not change any answers, how can I pass the second
time?

The author alluded to it in her writing, but all of the test administrators
have read up on methods of defeating the polygraph exam. Often, the "I've
never heard of it" line is a lie.

~~~
polyfolly
Now that I think about it, it probably is useful for initial job screening.
More like a psychological test to screen out those that get too riled up over
stuff. Though that really has more to do with age. The first one I had took
three hours. Years later, the recent one was 1 hour.

The one thing the intel community does want to screen out are rash decision
makers. So it’s probably excellent measure of one’s ability to keep cool under
pressure.

~~~
jancsika
> More like a psychological test to screen out those that get too riled up
> over stuff.

If that's is the case, then a nasty side-effect is to weed out the people who
as a general principle refuse to put up with abuse as a basic condition of
their potential job. Maybe a small deal if you're only hiring James Bond-style
spies, but a big deal if you're mainly hiring analysts.

Imagine in a FLOSS project that I force all pull-request makers to read
through my recursive, non-deterministic set of makefiles and fix a bug there.
How many high-quality pull requests will I accept under such a system vs.
simply assessing pull requests on their merit?

Of course that's not a fair comparison. I apologize to polygraph operators for
it. :)

------
ilaksh
I had a contract doing a WebGL 3D space sim and graphing thing for a guy who
was then going to recruit me to apply the technology for military
applications. They wanted a browser-based simulator.

But he told me that the application process in order to get clearance would
involve a nasty investigation questioning everyone who knew me about all kinds
of personal things.

It seemed like a fun project that would pay decently, but it didn't make sense
for me to subject myself to some kind of intense invasion of privacy or
interrogation.

The other part of it is that the software was going to be used for warfare
planning. And I consider war to be unethical profiteering.

In my opinion things like polygraphs and invasive investigations AND most
things related to war and spying belong in movies rather than a sane and
ethical world.

~~~
PaulRobinson
I get why people think they should/could object to war and think choosing
projects is enough.

If you work on OSS, you're contributing to the military industrial complex
indirectly.

If you pay your taxes, yes, you pay for schools, but you're also paying for an
intelligence system and armed contingent within your country. Most HNers are
contributing to NATO.

The Internet started life as a DARPA project in order to coordinate response
after nuclear war.

Be a conscientious objector if you wish, just don't build stuff on the
Internet and complain about how evil all things related to defence are.

And I'd be fascinated to know what forms of profiteering you consider ethical.

~~~
ianai
I think of it differently. The economy really doesn’t need to employ everyone
who needs work and money. Government could diminish this discrepancy any
number ways. For one, they could establish stipends to help people achieve
their basic needs. Or they could create public works projects or just
government projects to ensure full employment with suitable accommodations for
people’s varied needs. I look at defense spending as essentially this. Yes,
the US has a huge defense department. Yes that means the US has the most might
of any country. That even leads it to things like excesses. But it’s
fundamentally the only version of my previous statement the political climate
digests. If you want otherwise and are a US citizen then get involved in your
civil duties.

------
DonGateley
In 1967, as a soon to be graduate from a university in what is today called
computer science, I applied to the NSA and nothing about that interview was
nice. I failed the polygraph on two consecutive days and that's all she wrote.
What tripped me up was the question "have you had any homosexual activity."
The pen almost went off the graph when I truthfully said, "no."

Where and when I grew up that was about the worst thing that could be said of
a young male. On the trip to the interview my magic magnifying mind had
wondered about whether sensitivity to a question alone could cause truth to
appear to be a lie. Of course the question that popped into my mind which I
anticipated was the question on homosexual activity. Well, having thought
about it beforehand, sure enough I reacted strongly. It was just as well
because the overall interview had shown me that I didn't want to work there
anyway but it was still traumatic to be accused of lying and about that in
particular at that time.

For a short period of time I questioned my sexuality but can say that in the
intervening 51 years there has not been one moment when I considered
homosexual behavior. This is not to say anything negative about homosexuality,
just how one's fear of responding to a question can cause one to respond
negatively even with a truthful answer.

Times were different then and my attitude was too. I doubt I'd fear the
question today given that my accepting attitude toward homosexuality in
general has been normalized.

~~~
DonGateley
P.S. I am awfully glad that in those 51 years I was never again put in a
polygraph situation such as an investigation. I just know I'd fuck it up.

------
YeGoblynQueenne
>> To prepare for the test, I read A Tremor in the Blood by David T. Lykken.
The book described the use of control versus relevant questions as well as
countermeasure such as butt-clenching.

This explains that other thing I read yesterday, in a different article about
the polygraph test:

 _" There may be something that's put on the tip of the finger that records
blood flow and we also use something called a movement detector which is on
the seat and picks up if you're trying to beat the test," Prof Grubin
explains._

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-
canada-45736631](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45736631)

So that's not a "movement detector". It's a butt-clench detector.

That's just the level of seriousness I'd expect from modern-day sorcery with
wires and computers, instead of fetishes and incantations.

~~~
cryoshon
not to mention that butt-clenching is just the simplest way of nonvisibly
messing with your vital signs. a guy walking in off the street can butt
clench.

once you get into some of the intermediate level buddhist body awareness
studies, you won't need the butt clench to cause your muscle tenor, heart
rate, body temp, and respiration to respond to your will.

------
YeGoblynQueenne
>> The examiner came back. "You're having a problem with one of the questions.
Do you know which one?" I had no idea. I'd answered all of them truthfully.
She said, "How about, 'Have you ever lied to your boss?'" I said I hadn't. She
pressed me until I came up with an occasion when I'd passed my boss in the
hall. She said, "How are you?" and I said, "Fine." But I wasn't fine, I was in
the middle of a cancer scare.

Heh. In machine learning, when someone gets a "successful result" like that
they publish a paper.

------
everdrive
"I was surprised. It's an important book about her field, I would have thought
all polygraphers knew of it."

Unsurprisingly, these guys tend to have a lot of turn-around, and are not
necessarily spending time researching their craft.

------
EliRivers
On a related note, readers might enjoy Adam Curtis' piece about intelligence
agencies. The crux of his argument is that often, they're not magic super-
spies; often, they're pretty bad at their job.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/3662a707-0af9-...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/3662a707-0af9-3149-963f-47bea720b460)

------
csense
If they know polygraph doesn't work, why do they still do it?

~~~
Theodores
Because belief is not rational. The people that passed the polygraph tests and
administer them to others may acknowledge the flaws but they still 'know' that
a lie detector is the best they have got. They also know that some people will
just confess at the thought of being wired up to such a machine, to give
evidence that, unlike the lie detector, is admissible in court.

The most interesting story is how the authorities nabbed the guy who was most
dedicated to dismissing the lie-detector baloney:

[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/12/polygraph-
cr...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/12/polygraph-critic-trial-
lie-busters-doug-williams)

His consulting work of helping people pass lie detectors was his downfall. Had
he just stuck to campaigning against the lie detector and not wanting to offer
services to those needing to pass a lie detector test then all would have been
okay for him and he would not be having to serve one of those silly 100 year
sentences that American justice demands.

~~~
ap_org
This is AntiPolygraph.org co-founder George Maschke. I didn't offer services
to those needing to pass lie detector test. AntiPolygraph.org only provides
information, all of it free, in the public interest. But it appears that I,
too, was targeted for entrapment:

[https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2013/11/03/an-attempted-
entra...](https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2013/11/03/an-attempted-entrapment/)

------
DoctorOetker
>Similarly, I urge my children to steer clear of any job that requires a
polygraph. That rules out entire professions: National Security, Intelligence,
Law Enforcement, Customs and Border Protection, and Pharmacy.

Pharmacists need to take polygraphs? I never thought about that. Is this to
prevent pharmacists from dealing drugs? Is this a strictly US thing, or doe
pharmacists in say Europe also take quasi routine polygraphs?

~~~
Kenji
I think polygraphs are an American thing in general. In Central Europe you
literally never hear about them. I think the population believes they are
bogus, so they're unpopular.

~~~
DoctorOetker
I would hope this is true. But sadly I am not so sure:

I live in Ghent, Belgium, a developed Western European nation. You can look up
a lot of debate by googling "paragnost politie" and you will see results from
Belgium, Netherlands, ... basically psychics, mediums and hypnotists working
for / with the police.

I think it was about 10 years ago (very rough guess) when I read in an article
that the local police (perhaps just Ghent, perhaps nationwide) fired the last
paragnosts. In the mean while perhaps they still don't use them, perhaps they
have reverted back to using them...

Intelligence and superstition form a very bad couple...

------
doe88
The only thing I could think through reading this madness is as if the author
was in the movie _Brazil_.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(1985_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_\(1985_film\))

------
ALittleLight
>To their credit, DIA didn't tell any other agencies they'd taken my badge and
debriefed me. Weeks later, my CIA clearances were still active.

I believe the polygraph is junk, but how is it to the DIA's credit that they
don't notify other agencies when an employee fails a background check?

I also think the author is taking things too personally. I agree it seems like
a strange and poor requirement that you sit in a chair and be berated or
called a liar for a few hours but it also doesn't seem so horrible. If this is
the best the agency can do for interrogation and background checks - so be it.
If you don't like doing that then find a different job.

------
viraptor
> That rules out entire professions: ... and Pharmacy.

Pharmacy in the is requires a polygraph? I didn't expect that. It's not
required in other Commonwealth countries as far as I know.

~~~
fphhotchips
The USA is not a Commonwealth country - they formally lost that membership
when they declared independence (and informally when they dumped a shipment of
tea into a harbour).

~~~
codingdave
If you are going to get specific about history like that, then we formally
lost that membership with the Treaty of Paris, which ended the Revolutionary
War, not the Declaration of Independence, which formalized why we started
fighting it.

------
droithomme
> A few years into my Agency career, I took a battery of vocational and
> aptitude tests including the MMPI, a personality inventory.

BTW, the MMPI is completely invalid scientifically, which is obvious from
researching its history. Also, if anyone is interested in beating the MMPI, by
learning how to give any particular result, it requires work and memorization
since there's such a large number of questions and categories, but it's
possible with study.

------
irundebian
A little bit unrelated: Are they any credible resources which give insights on
how it is like to work for these three letter agencies?

~~~
nyolfen
they're a bit dated but you should check out phil agee's books. his first one
in particular was very scandalous.

------
AndyMcConachie
I just finished reading Deadly Deciepts by Ralph McGehee and this basically
aligns well with how he describes the CIA. It's his memoirs of spending 25
years in the CIA and the bureaucratic shit show of a government job that it
is. It would likely make a good comedy if they weren't responsible for so much
pain and misery in the world.

------
artsyxxx
Perhaps these polys are practice for should they be caught in the field and
interrogated by enemy agents?

------
kodablah
Maybe it is how it's written, but this person's entire career reads like a rat
navigating through a maze built by superiors. Even though they say the job is
among the happiest times of their life, it helps put into perspective the
follower mentality some have, especially in the public sector. I'd have given
the middle finger right away knowing I can find enjoyable work sans
harassment. To put it crudely, I can't even sympathize with someone so willing
to grab their ankles.

Instead of telling your kids to avoid working at places with a polygraph, how
about instilling some confidence and make it clear to them that if they
are/become really good at what they do, they have the leverage to not put up
with these things (at least in non-depressed employment markets).

~~~
ergothus
What is a reasonable hoop to jump through and what is unreasonable is very
subjective.

Consider...on the east coast, interview suits are the norm. Even for a coding
job where you will never wear a suit, it is reasonable to wonder why a
candidate refused to wear a suit for an interview. West coast, though, the
reverse is true. I had quite the culture shock coming from a govt job on the
east coast to a Seattle coding job.

I have anxiety and would find routine polygraphs stressful...but I also hate
annual performance reviews and enjoy my 1:1s with managers. I'm sure others
might look at my life and wonder why I choose certain issues as important and
others as trivial.

So while I have the same reactions as you when PERSONALLY considering the
named job, I'm less inclined to snap judge the author as "so willing to grab
their ankles"

~~~
iooi
In NYC it's absolutely not expected or normal to wear a suit for a software
engineering interview.

~~~
acjohnson55
Yeah, in most places, it would mark you as earnest, at best, and naive, at
worst.

------
Mielly
>I felt like Neville Longbottom when he drew the sword of Gryffindor and
advanced on Lord Voldemort.

Oh gosh please no, what an utter embarassment to read.

