
Lyft's first expansion outside the USA in Toronto next month - annapurna
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/11/13/lyft-ubers-ride-hailing-rival-is-expanding-to-the-gta.html
======
mabbo
Can't wait. I've used Uber frequently for a long time, but every other story
in the news about them is that their leadership are just terrible human
beings. I don't want to deal with them as a company.

Much like the drivers, I simply want what Uber is offering and have no loyalty
to the company itself. If Lyft wants to come to Toronto and offer the same
thing without being Uber, I'll gladly switch.

~~~
t1o5
I would use Lyft or Uber in Toronto, whichever is convenient at that point of
time. If you start to boycott companies which are not ethical in doing their
business, well almost all companies are. Lets start with Amazon with their
sweat shop warehouses, Garment manufacturing outsourced to workers in
Bangladesh working in deadly conditions. No corporations are saints.

~~~
ahoy
(This isn't meant as a personal attack on the parent comment. Their opinion is
common and I've held it myself in the past)

I really dislike this line of thinking. It's profoundly cynical and sees
change as impossible.

Corporations do bad things. I can comment on that and refuse to do business
with some of them and not others. I don't have to uproot my whole life and
become a mountain ascetic to earn the moral purity necessary to acknowledge a
single evil.

We can address one bad thing without addressing _every_ bad thing at once.

------
TorKlingberg
About time. While Uber is available in almost every major city around the
world, Lyft has been US only. I wonder why Lyft is so far behind. Is it just a
matter of investment capital?

~~~
kitcar
I believe it is because they are hesitant to blatantly disregard local laws -
it's part of their brand persona, they try to be seen as the "nicer uber" \-
hence they try to play nice with the jurisdictions they expand to, resulting
in slower expansion.

[https://a16z.com/2017/09/25/government-relations-local-
lyft/](https://a16z.com/2017/09/25/government-relations-local-lyft/)

~~~
eddieplan9
You are misinformed. If you had followed both companies from the beginning,
you would know that Uber started with licensed drivers - even UberX started
that way with only cheaper cars - and it was lyft who broke the city
ordinances by using unlicensed drivers under the disguise of tipping-as-
payment. Uber refused to do it, until they realized the governments were not
enforcing the laws at all. The case in Miami is the best example of it, as
pointed out by malandrew in
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15686983](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15686983).
This is covered in the book "Wild Ride: Inside Uber's Quest for World
Domination".

As many drivers in the lyft reddit point out, lyft just want you to believe
it's more ethical, when it is far from the truth. It's also sad some people
here draw conclusion from talking to drivers, often lyft drivers only, without
considering there is huge survival bias.

~~~
njj023
Thank you for calling out what seems like an incredible -- almost
intentionally ignorant -- hive mind HN tends to have at times.

------
nugget
I've noticed that Uber seems to have much more competitive pricing in markets
(especially airports) where Lyft is also present, compared to markets where
they are the only provider. So personally I would welcome Lyft's rapid
international expansion.

~~~
tw04
That's because in general Uber is selling at a loss in those markets to try to
drive Lyft out of business. Hence why they're burning through cash like an 18
year-old lottery winner.

It's unsustainable and hopefully Lyft can weather it.

~~~
malandrew
> selling at a loss in those markets to try to drive Lyft out of business.

Leaked financials show that Lyft is selling at a far greater loss than Uber.
Based on Q2 leaked figures, Uber's losses relative to gross bookings was -8%
and Lyft's was 13.5%.

~~~
zwily
In aggregate yes, but it would be interesting to know what Uber’s numbers are
for just the markets where they compete with Lyft.

~~~
malandrew
Other than the leaked financials, I haven't seen any leaked or public
information specific to the US alone that suggests that one is subsidizing
more than the other. They could be subsidizing equally. Or Uber could be
subsidizing more. Or Lyft could be subsidizing more.

Do you have any evidence to demonstrate that only in the US Uber is
subsidizing more? If so, please share. I haven't yet heard a single convincing
argument supporting this popularly held belief that Uber is subsidizing more.

All I know is that all of Uber's business is more efficient than Lyft. Plus,
this is after taking into account that Uber shoulders most of the market's
losses when it comes to penetrating a new market and getting laws changed to
allow TNCs. Once TNCs are an established business in most markets, the legal
costs should drop, shrinking G&A, thus leaving it even more capital efficient.

------
joeblau

      > “At the end of the day, I’m available to the highest bidder.”
    

I've heard that a lot from drivers all over the U.S. They run both apps and
whichever gives them the next ride, they take.

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vmarsy
I don't know if this is the same in every cities, but here in Seattle using
Uber is becoming very annoying: in the past rides we tried getting in the past
few weeks, the original wait time shows something like 2 or 3 minutes, but as
soon as the ride is found it jumps to 7-8 minutes. And that stays blocked on
this time for a couple minutes (or sometimes increase!). In the meantime, for
Lyft rides it seems to be the opposite, usually we have to wait less than a
minute for rides from the same place. This didn't use to be the case, I'm
wondering if the majority of drivers have now switched to Lyft .

~~~
rjuyal
I have exactly opposite experience in Seattle.

Almost always Lyft's estimated time of arrival is way off the charts.

------
annapurna
With recent investments in both Lyft and Uber, it will be interesting to see
how Lyft executes on it's international expansion.

> John Zimmer, Lyft’s president and co-founder says 5,000 Torontonians
> downloaded the app this year with no service available.

> Uber has become part of Toronto’s transportation scene, with almost 50,000
> drivers — many part-time — and new services including food delivery.

> Kristine Hubbard, Beck Taxi’s operations manager, expects Lyft’s entry to
> worsen Toronto gridlock. “It’s another reason to encourage cars to cruise
> the streets of our city — many of them who come from outside it — who
> otherwise wouldn’t be there.”

~~~
sbarre
Beck has been waging a pretty high-profile PR war against ride-sharing in this
city..

But Beck Taxi are also the face of everything that's wrong with taxis in
Toronto, so most people here don't take their position very seriously, and
they do not have much goodwill from the population (or from taxi operators in
a lot of cases).

That said, in the last few months whenever I talk to my Uber driver about "how
things are going", the majority of them complain about slowing business, and
making less money and getting less rides..

It seems like, anecdotally speaking, the downtown area in particular is pretty
saturated with drivers, and while this is great for riders (I almost never
wait more than 2-3 minutes no matter where I am), it's probably less great for
drivers.

~~~
annapurna
Yeah, Beck's been fighting a losing battle. Once I called them to give it a
shot and they made me wait for 15 minutes. To be fair, the taxi did arrive and
I was not in any rush so overall, the delay didn't matter much. However,
that's probably the last time I'll call them unless something changes
drastically. I also just noticed they have released an app. Curious how's the
experience is on it so far.

~~~
sbarre
The Beck app is basically just a text interface to their human dispatcher..

Last time I used it (admittedly over a year ago) it was not very responsive
(very poor UX) and didn't seem to have any advantage over calling.

------
sol_remmy
Fantastic news. I dropped Uber because of how they organize their business. My
experience with Lyft in US cities has been fantastic.

Uber could use some competition in Canada as well (outside of our generally
terrible taxis).

~~~
dmix
The competition will most certainly result in coupons with free/discounted
rides and other benefits like the old Hailo vs Uber days, before Hailo left
Toronto...

A large part of Uber's ability to act without regard for public scrutiny was
the fact they were frequently the only horse in town for most cities. The tech
press in SF is often isolated from this reality.

This competition from Lyft is a great counter balance for Uber, without having
to rely on the heavy-handed counter-weight of government-backed last-era taxi
conglomerates/unions.

------
james_pm
Excellent news. I dropped Uber because of how they run their business. My
experience with Lyft in US cities has been excellent.

Uber could use some competition in Toronto as well (outside of our generally
terrible taxis).

~~~
rfeather
I'm so glad to hear I'm not alone in avoiding Uber for being unethical. I hope
this is more widespread than just the HN crowd, but generally I get the
impression that most folks just aren't aware/don't care about corporate
behavior.

------
thisisit
> Khalid Ahmed, 31, says he makes about $30 an hour, less expenses, as an
> occasional driver for Uber. He plans to switch to Lyft.

>"It’s new, it’s fresh. It’s like waiting in line for the new iPhone — I’ve
got to have it,” he said with a laugh. He also likes the company’s mission
statement and driver incentives. “At the end of the day, I’m available to the
highest bidder.”

Are Lyft's incentive better than Uber? Or is that they are better because they
are the underdogs? AFAIK many drivers service all ride share apps at any given
time.

~~~
adjkant
Lyft tends to pay better than Uber. Have asked drivers who drive for both in
about 5-6 cities, all same answer. Lyft is the one you want to drive for.

~~~
njj023
You are completely misinformed. Most drivers do both. Get on reddit.com/r/lyft
or reddit.com/r/uberdrivers and you will get a sense that post tipping +
changes Uber has made, the scale has entirely tipped. Lyft has certainly done
an excellent job building up the _perception_ that they are better for drivers
and convincing consumers of the same. In fact, this is on the front page of
r/lyft today -
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Lyft/comments/7c234g/is_lyft_unethi...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lyft/comments/7c234g/is_lyft_unethical/)

~~~
adjkant
I'm just reporting anecdotal evidence from drivers. The drivers I asked had
signage for both on their cars, I did not deny that most drive for both.

Said survey was before Uber introduced tipping.

------
ChrisArchitect
Meh. I think I will continue to use Uber because from what I can tell, and
what annoyingly no one seems to talk about in this conversation, is the
difference in the services/experience. The user experience of taking a ride is
not the same/not as seamless because you have to do all this payment/tip stuff
at the end. Uber has always been a hail/get in/get out experience. No
incentive to change to Lyft

~~~
ChrisArchitect
and ok, fine, if the experience is exactly the same - what's the incentive to
switch or even set up the second app? Uber wins on first in, same as if anyone
local remembers, Hailo eventually gave up and pulled out of the city because
couldn't get users over etc

~~~
nametube
People who aren't entrenched now have another service to choose from. people
who are entrenched will be fought over on price and quality of service.

------
caycep
Granted my experience in Toronto and Montreal are that cabs are easy to come
by, relatively inexpensive and accept NFC payments...so maybe on the consumer
side they have less cruft than US cab companies and may be less immune to
complete disruption by the big rideshare companies

