
Cases of Vaping-Related Lung Illness Surge, Health Officials Say - neom
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/06/health/third-death-vaping-related-disease.html
======
rmetzler
The main problem I see with vaping Cannabis extract is, there isn’t much that
a consumer can do to verify the quality of the product. The cannabis could be
contaminated with mold or neem oil from the grow up or it could be leftovers
from the extraction method, because it wasn’t purged right.

Neem oil is something that was cleared for fruits and vegetables, something
that you wash and eat. But I think it would be poisonous when you inhale it.

~~~
scruple
Not to mention who knows what pesticides and solvents. There's an Instagram
user who has posted lab results from (legit, branded, supposedly reputable)
cartridges that he's personally submitted. The results were enough to scare me
away from the entire idea.

------
teilo
I'm more concerned about the future backlash than the present reporting.

I mean, remember the salmonella tomato scare in 2008? Restaurants around the
country stopped putting tomatoes on their food, and grocery stores pulled all
tomatoes from the shelves, until the issue was isolated and resolved.

So while I do think it's quite the overreaction to tell everyone to stop using
any and all vaping products, particularly people who are continuing to vape
juices that have been used for years without issue, it's an understandable
overreaction.

In the end, they are going to find the issue, and it won't have anything to do
with traditional e-cig alternatives to tobacco. But I suspect there will be
legislative backlash that will be vastly disproportionate to the issue. They
will punish innocent retailers, make e-cigs outrageously expensive by over-
regulation, and discourage a large number of people from a product that really
is substantially safer than the tobacco they are leaving behind.

~~~
saghm
> I mean, remember the salmonella tomato scare in 2008? Restaurants around the
> country stopped putting tomatoes on their food, and grocery stores pulled
> all tomatoes from the shelves, until the issue was isolated and resolved.

If this follows a parallel path though, wouldn't this mean that vaping levels
will basically be back to normal shortly after the cause is discovered? A
temporary cessation of vaping until we can find and eliminate the cause of
these health problems doesn't strike me as a huge issue.

~~~
teilo
No. Because tomatoes is food. Vaping is stigmatized, and has been in the
crosshairs of legislative action for a long while now.

~~~
michaelvoz
As it should be? It is disgusting, offers no benefit, creates a ton of plastic
waste and gets children hooked to nicotine.

~~~
macawfish
Vaping high quality CBD cartridges helped me through some serious situational
depression and anxiety.

Of course some people told me that vaping was a "trash" thing to do, but
thankfully I don't care and recognize that my needs are valid regardless of
peoples' judgements!

~~~
wolco
Why not move to the crystal isolate? You can add those to food or your drinks.
Not sure vaping makes sense cbd wise when there are different options.

------
drngdds
It's pretty misleading that all the headlines are just calling this "vaping-
related" when the actual cause is probably bad THC oil. How many people are
going to stop vaping nicotine and go back to cigarettes after hearing about
this? The number probably isn't zero, and those people are going to be at a
greater risk for a litany of awful illnesses.

~~~
Havoc
>It's pretty misleading that all the headlines are just calling this "vaping-
related" when the actual cause is probably bad THC oil.

That's pure speculation on your part.

All of them are vaping related, but not all necessary THC related:

>Many patients report using e-cigarette products with liquids that contain
cannabinoid products

The might be under-reporting due to THC legality fear. Or it may not be. Who
knows?

>at a greater risk for a litany of awful illnesses.

Long term maybe. But whatever this is it seems to kill pretty fast.

------
AndrewBissell
The Washington Post reported earlier today that this may be caused by
marijuana vaping products which use Vitamin E to achieve a higher THC
concentration:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20898456](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20898456)

------
dr_dshiv
A majority of Americans believe that vaping is more dangerous than smoking.
This kind of jounalism is literally killing people.

[https://reason.com/2019/04/10/the-percentage-of-americans-
wh...](https://reason.com/2019/04/10/the-percentage-of-americans-who-
understa/)

~~~
derision
> This kind of jounalism

What kind? Accurate? Is it not true that these cases are increasing and deaths
have happened in close succession? A lot of these vape cartridges are being
made with untested adulterants or solvents that we have no idea about,
especially black market cartridges and counterfeits from other countries.
Until there's more testing and regulation around what is actually in these
things, they are in fact more dangerous than smoking in my opinion. Smoking
causes all kinds of issues over the long term, but these vape cartridges are
causing serious acute illnesses.

Maybe more dangerous is the wrong word. Vaping, at this point, is way more
_risky_ than smoking, given the acute possibilities.

~~~
EpicEng
>What kind? Accurate?

no, the type that omits relevant information in order to scare people. nearly
every article I've seen talking about the dangers of vaping has failed to
mention flaws in the studies that they cite, and there's never a follow-up.
numerous articles were written citing a study that burned liquid at incredibly
high temperatures. A person would never use a vape that way.

In this case, we know that these people were vaping, but we have no cause.
Another article came out today that found high amounts of vitamin e in THC
oils these people were vaping[1]. I couldn't find a mention of that in the
article.

There are an estimated 10 million people who vape in this country. We have a
tiny, tiny fraction who have demonstrable health issues related to it. in
those cases it has almost always been a manufacturing issue, not an issue with
vaping in general. I'm not trying to say it's perfectly safe, obviously that
is unlikely to be the case, but cigarettes are absolutely going to kill you.

[1]:
[https://beta.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/09/05/contaminan...](https://beta.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/09/05/contaminant-
found-vaping-products-linked-deadly-lung-illnesses-state-federal-labs-
show/?outputType=amp)

~~~
notacoward
> it has almost always been a manufacturing issue

"If you do it right, it's harmless." Problem is, people are doing it wrong.
They do a lot of things wrong, and reporting on that is quite valid. People
use guns wrong, but that doesn't mean there's anything improper about
reporting on people being shot.

------
hacknat
I still am convinced that this is people vaping way too much at one time.
Cannabinoids are “sticky” oils, i.e. pretty good binding agents. It’s
plausible that a carcinogen (in an e cigarette) is binding to them that would
otherwise be metabolized and creating a negative side effect.

I do think vaping is probably better than smoking, but it is probably ideal
not to be addicted to nicotine. It is much more dangerous to your long term
health than either THC or alcohol (assuming you’re not an alcoholic).

Best to lay off vaping weed and nicotine at the same time for now. That seems
to be the common thread in these cases.

As someone who only vapes weed, I have to say I’m not too worried.

Edit:

Corrected brain fart of saying “weed and marijuana” instead of “weed and
nicotine”.

~~~
balaksakrionon
What do you mean by:

    
    
      vaping weed and marijuana at the same time
    

? Or do you mean weed + nicotine?

~~~
hacknat
Yep, thanks.

------
arzt
It would seem appropriate to caveat the fact in the headline that the vast
majority of these cases were vaping with THC related products (although a
majority had used a nicotine related product as well, exclusively nicotine
related cases are much fewer).

------
scohesc
I mean it's not surprising, considering that the only thing you should be
breathing in is air, not anything else. (not that I personally follow that
rule though :\\)

I wonder if it's an ingredient that's used to make it taste better - since the
article posted an item of the "fun" flavored vape liquid.

I don't think we should outright ban these devices like the one doctor
mentioned in the article. Find out what specifically is causing the problem
with lung deterioration and ban that ingredient from the mixture (Probably
vitamin E acetate according to the article). Seems fairly simple.

~~~
shaneofalltrad
I think Air has lost it's quality too, so breathing it is in need of some
cannabis to offset the carcinogenic particles- just don't smoke E acetate or
any other substance with it, keep the grow clean of chemicals and you will
have healthy lungs IMHO. You do see studies of cannabis smokers having
healthier lungs than non-smokers and nicotine smokers.

~~~
skyyler
You need to update your information.

Cannabis smoke, like any smoke generated from combustion of plant matter,
contains a number of carcinogenic compounds. Smoking cannabis does not cure
cancer. Quite the opposite.

Your position that breathing air is unhealthy without cannabis is quite
interesting. I'd love to see some of the studies you're talking about. I have
never seen a study concluding that smoke inhalation is a good thing.

------
Nerdfest
I keep seeing this headline, reading the articles and being disappointed that
none of them seem to differentiate between cannabis/tobacco oil vaping
(e-cigarettes) and dry-herb vaping. Dry her has no other chemicals, and no
fillers. It just boils the THC/CBD and other cannabinoids out of the leaf.
There is no smoke, and the vapour is pretty much colourless. It's very easy on
the lungs and much better (and cheaper, I find) than smoking it.

Those oil based vapes just seem nasty. Smaller vaporizer though, I guess.

------
fourstar
[https://leafist.com/news/health/are-cannabis-vape-pens-
safe](https://leafist.com/news/health/are-cannabis-vape-pens-safe) for a brief
overview of the extraction process —- but as another commenter mentioned, the
issue is there’s no verification. If you want to make real use of a
blockchain, it’d be to tag all these cartridges with a QR code that is tied to
specific farm, and there would be a third party that the county would require
to test the contents. Then when I purchase I can view it on some public chain.
This already happens for large scale growers at (reputatable) dispensaries who
sell flower. Most larger companies (Marly Naturals, Jetty Extracts, to name a
couple) in the cannabis space typically have good quality. As far as the
nicotine vapes, it’s less regulated so you’re more likely to get some bad
“juice” from a place with low/no standards.

------
cj
There was a similar story on HN a few days ago. I found this thread to be a
really interesting take on the possible cause:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20855683](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20855683)

TLDR: Vaporizer cartridges contain fillers. The fillers are apparently very
expensive. The theory is people in the industry are trying to boost profits by
using cheaper (never tested on humans) fillers that are potentially damaging
to health. Whether or not this is true, I don't know, but it makes for an
interesting theory.

------
dpeck
It feels like this is going to end up being very similar to the melamine milk
situation in China in 2008
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal)

------
dr_dshiv
The british NHS claims that vaping is at least 95% more safe than smoking.

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/heal...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-
quit-smoking-cigarettes-health-nhs-lung-damage-cancer-
tobacco-a8701506.html%3famp)

------
DubiousPusher
It blows my mind how HN which can discuss many issues in a nuanced and
skeptical way is so reactionary and treats government press releases with so
much credulity when a mind altering substance is involved.

------
post_break
Michigan banned flavors is going to cause a surge of this when people start to
DIY it.

------
ngcc_hk
If it just killed the smoker unlike cigarettes, liberty issue.

At best same treatment as cigarette

------
theshadowknows
“Surged” from zero to five.

------
dr_dshiv
This all seems like such terrible journalism. Vaping can refer to: 1. Juul and
similar e-cigarette nicotine products 2. Iqos or Pax tobacco or marijuana non-
combustion products 3. Legal Cannabis oil branded products 4. Illegal cannabis
oil products.

All issues have come from illegal products. No brands are mentioned. Clearly,
contamination is the issue. It is irresponsible to blame "vaping" especially
considering that the alternative is "smoking" \-- which won't ever result in a
newspaper article about sickness/death because it is so common.

About 10 people a day die in swimming pools. But 4 total deaths ever is an
epidemic?

~~~
slg
>It is irresponsible to blame "vaping" especially considering that the
alternative is "smoking" \-- which won't ever result in a newspaper article
about sickness/death because it is so common

Is it irresponsible to criticize OxyContin because an alternative like
fentanyl is even more dangerous?

Vaping might be safer than smoking, but it isn't necessarily safe. Vaping can
and often is used by smokers to handle their nicotine addiction. That doesn't
mean we should ignore that vaping can of often is used by people who aren't
yet addicted to nicotine, namely teenagers. In those cases it can lead to
nicotine addiction and eventual smoking.

I don't want to completely vilify vaping, but the whole idea that we should be
fine with it because it is "safer" is completely flawed.

~~~
dr_dshiv
I'd like to understand why you think it is _completely flawed_. That is a
strong statement that confuses me.

~~~
slg
Because it sets up a false dichotomy that one can either be anti-vaping/pro-
smoking or pro-vaping/anti-smoking. It is possible to recognize that vaping is
safer than smoking but it is still dangerous and provides enough negative
externalities that it should be highly discouraged.

~~~
dr_dshiv
Ok, fair enough. But you'd agree, then, that the degree of discouragement
should be proportional to risk, right?

And that's where the 10 people per day dying in swimming pools seems relevant
to bring up. Or the fact that 67% of smokers die from smoking, with hundreds
of thousands of deaths per year. Or the fact that a majority of Americans
believe that vaping is _more_ harmful than smoking.
[https://reason.com/2019/04/10/the-percentage-of-americans-
wh...](https://reason.com/2019/04/10/the-percentage-of-americans-who-
understa/)

That's weird, right?

~~~
slg
>But you'd agree, then, that the degree of discouragement should be
proportional to risk, right?

Yes partially, but it should also be proportional to the public's knowledge
too. That is why some products are recalled after a single accident. It isn't
that people are destined to die. The problem is instead when people assume the
level of risk is low when it is actually moderate. That can be more dangerous
than a riskier option in which everyone knows it is risky. For example, a
swimming pool is unquestionably more dangerous than a trampoline. However most
parents know a swimming pool is dangerous and won't let their kids swim
unsupervised. They might not be aware of the dangers of trampolines. That
asymmetry in the knowledge of the risks might end up making the trampoline
more likely to result in an accident.

The general public thinks vaping is safer than it is. The general public is
already very well aware how dangerous smoking is. I therefore think it is
perfectly reasonable to be louder in denouncing vaping, especially considering
this recent news seems to show it is even riskier than initially thought.

~~~
dr_dshiv
Check this article out. I see where you are going, but we are talking about an
alternative to smoking, which is _really bad._

[https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k575](https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k575)

~~~
slg
Sure, but that is missing half the equation. Every person who vapes is not a
person who previously smoked or would have chosen to smoke if vaping didn't
exist. The rate of the growth in vaping is much higher than the rate in
decline of smoking. Like I said before, vaping can help people who are already
addicts become healthier, but it is also creating new addicts and that is a
problem.

~~~
dr_dshiv
I like to vape. I like to drink coffee. I like potato chips. All are
addictive. If potato chips and coffee were released in 2019, would they be
banned in San Francisco because they are addictive and dangerous for public
health?

------
DubiousPusher
The media needs to slow their roll here. This totally has the vibe of the
"Cuban sonic weapon attacks" or the "cops contact ODing on fentanyl" thing.

~~~
draw_down
Maybe, but the anticipation of something like this, a concrete reason to bash
vaping, has been palpable for a while now.

For a long time all they had was "it looks like smoking and smoking is
unhealthy" or "nicotine is bad" or "tobacco companies are evil". Now it's
"vaping will destroy your lungs and kill you". So I'd say this reaction is
entirely predictable.

