
Study says Uber and Lyft generate 70% more pollution than the trips they replace - anigbrowl
https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/25/21152512/uber-lyft-climate-change-emissions-pollution-ucs-study
======
rahimnathwani
If you want "better climate and congestion outcomes", then it seems silly to
focus specifically on taxi and taxi-like services.

You need the political will to tax the externalities you care about, e.g.

\- if you use taxes to triple the price of gas, then there's more incentive to
cycle instead of driving

\- if you charge vehicles for using congested roads, and the charge is
proportional to the vehicle's footprint, then buses become much more
attractive than cars

Optionally, you can use the additional tax revenue to subsidise buses or
whatever.

~~~
blackflame7000
Taxes shouldn't be a means of controlling behavior in a free society. Pass a
law or leave it alone. Taxes make it so only the rich can have certain
privileges the rest can't.

~~~
rahimnathwani
Many people believe that:

\- markets are an efficient way to allocate resources between competing ends

\- many activities cause negative externalities (costs that are borne by
neighbours/society in general, and not by the entity that benefits from the
activity)

For people who believe the above, taxes on externalities (e.g. a price paid
per unit of pollution generated) are a way to improve the overall outcome for
society by ensuring that, e.g. polluting activities are only undertaken if the
added value exceeds the cost to society.

"Taxes make it so only the rich can have certain privileges the rest can't."

In the children's book 'The Lorax', a man becomes rich and, in the process,
destroys a local habitat for fish and other wildlife. If his polluting
activities had been taxed:

\- he may have produced less

\- he may have been incentivised to find less polluting methods to make his
products

\- he may have done the same, but the government could have used the taxes on
finding a new habitat for the fish/whatever

In the story, the man and his family became rich. It was the ordinary people
and animals that lost out.

~~~
blackflame7000
The cost to society is pretty much incalculable due to black markets and who
is to say your vices shouldn't be taxed over mine?

> In the children's book 'The Lorax', a man becomes rich and, in the process,
> destroys a local habitat for fish and other wildlife. If his polluting
> activities had been taxed

Did you seriously just cite a fictional book as evidence to your point?

~~~
rahimnathwani
"The cost to society is pretty much incalculable"

Even if we cannot put precise figures on externalities, that doesn't mean we
can't improve market efficiency and societal outcomes by taxing them based on
reasonable estimates.

"and who is to say your vices shouldn't be taxed over mine?"

I'm not talking about taxing vices (e.g. taxes on activities that do self-
harm). I'm talking about taxing externalities.

"Did you seriously just cite a fictional book as evidence to your point?"

I didn't cite it as evidence. I used the context from the book as an example
of a situation where taxes could help drive better outcomes.

------
WheelsAtLarge
I think it's all about the shitty public transportation system. I live in one
of the biggest cities in the world yet I can't get across town, about 10
miles, in less than 1 hour and that's 1 line. If I need to take more than 2
lines that's an easy 2 hours one way. If you try that on the weekend that's
going to take 3 plus hours simply because the city's transportation system
reduces the number of buses running. It sux.

Lyft and Uber are just filling a need. The first thing the cities need to do
is fix the public transportation system. We can then criticize Lyft and Uber.

~~~
glouwbug
Ah, Toronto? Our street car system is called TTC. It stands for Take The Car

------
magicroot75
All this is really saying is that people are using it because it's convenient.
Don't blame Uber and Lyft for filling a void that public transit has been
unable to fill. Congratulate them for improving the productivity and
efficiency of our economy so that we can have the disposable income to tackle
long term questions like pollution.

------
contingencies
I tend to disagree but would be open to agreeing with better data.

What about the cars that aren't purchased, upgraded or discarded? The land
that isn't given over to parking? The waiting areas that aren't required at
public transit stops? The dynamic pricing that encourages people to commute
out of popular hours therefore smoothing traffic for everyone? This study is
too simplistic to take at face value.

PS. If it were easier to get halfway decent bikes around in most cities I
would just cycle everywhere. The last bike shop I went in to in Sydney wanted
AUD$3-10K (USD$3-7K) for a road bike: before extras.

------
cauterize
I’ll take a little more pollution over attending a drunk driving funeral

------
mdorazio
Worth noting this is on top of creating more traffic [1] and arguably
decreasing usage of public transit. Ridesharing has a lot of benefits, but
it's also got quite a few negative externalities that should maybe be priced
into rides somehow. In theory fuel taxes would take care of this naturally,
but in the US they really don't.

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/6/20756945/uber-lyft-tnc-
vmt...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/6/20756945/uber-lyft-tnc-vmt-traffic-
congestion-study-fehr-peers)

------
seibelj
So? Flying in a plane pollutes way more than bicycling cross country, that
doesn’t mean we should outlaw it.

Taking an Uber has a price, and if people are paying for it then it has value.

~~~
throwaway1777
The price doesn’t include externalities like pollution.

~~~
masonic
Or added traffic (which increases pollution by all other vehicles).

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Or whether the alternative to Uber might be owning a car and hence taking a
lot more journeys.

