
Most sushi fish isn't fresh - iamwil
https://medium.com/torodex/the-sushi-you-eat-isnt-fresh-f3478c99eb2
======
Groxx
Flash-freezing is an entirely different beast than tossing something in your
freezer. I wish we'd just embrace it culturally - the results are often _much_
better than "fresh", and are far safer, longer-lasting, and more consistent.

~~~
anitil
I catch my own fish (other than sushi/sashimi I haven't bought fish in years)
and 100% agree with you. You can taste the difference between fresh and frozen
in a home freezer, but I think you wouldn't notice with flash freezing in a
blind test.

And a lot of fish (kingfish and the rest of the seriola family for one
example) are _better_ after a few days anyway, similar to resting beef.

~~~
KGIII
If you're freezing your fish at home, put it in water. I clean them and put
them in ziplock bags with just enough water to cover them.

I don't have a good word for this, so I will say that it removes the freezer
taste.

~~~
anitil
Thanks! Will definitely try this. I invested in a vacuum sealer which works OK
but is a bit of a pain.

My approach lately is to give away what I can't eat immediately.

~~~
wil421
Try a few methods in this link[1]. I’ve had great success with fresh fish
using the water glaze. Lemon gelatin is supposedly the best method but I
haven’t tried it myself.

Go
Dawgs![1][http://nchfp.uga.edu/how/freeze/fish.html](http://nchfp.uga.edu/how/freeze/fish.html)

~~~
Groxx
Interesting - thanks for the link! I'll have to try these some time.

I do wonder how much of this is just preventing condensation / freezer burn
though. A moderate ice layer will probably be enough to stop auto-defrosting
freezers from destroying food so quickly.

------
subpixel
Related...

Ever go on vacation someplace famous for its seafood? Well, ask what seafood
on the menu is from the region. You may be very surprised.

The trick to getting a truthful answer is to come across like you're just
enthusiastic to have an authentic local dish. Then the manager or server is
more likely to empathize and steer you towards what, if anything, is actually
local. I've found that asking what is 'from the region' elicits better
responses than asking what is 'local'.

I've also learned that when someone is admitting, by omission, that a lot of
the fish and crustaceans on the menu are not local, they do not really want to
explain where it's from. Usually its from all over the world and to know for
sure they'd have to go look at a box in the alley.

~~~
et-al
Whenever I've visited to remote coastal towns, I've always been skeptical of
freshness. Contemporary American food distribution is pretty much hub and
spoke.

------
colbyh
We're close with Michelin-star sushi chef and he's never tried to hide the
fact that all of their fish has been frozen at some point. He finds it odd
that diners care about it so much, but he's also of the opinion that all fish
tastes better after it's been dead for at least a day. Certain fish even
tastes best after a few days frozen.

~~~
cloverich
There's a Parts Unknown episode with Anthony Bourdain where he highlights
this, basically saying that if he ever hears anyone say "That sushi was so
good, it was so fresh" he knows that don't know what they are talking about.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0hH_XR433A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0hH_XR433A)

~~~
Filligree
I don't know about typical sushi fish, but I've eaten a lot of cod that was
caught, boiled, and put on the dinner table all within about forty minutes.

It falls apart on the plate, but it's also one of the best-tasting types of
fish dinner I've ever had.

Once it's an hour old it's too late, though, so I don't expect to ever see
such fish commercially.

~~~
babesh
Yup. At least several kinds of fish are really good fresh. There is this
Cantonese thing with live fish that are killed and immediately cooked...
usually steamed but also pan fried. Delicious.

~~~
wahern
There's at least one restaurant in San Francisco Chinatown that sells _live_
drunken shrimp. Yes, they're still moving, if only sporadically. It's a fun
dish, but uncooked shrimp are pretty tasteless, and the rice wine doesn't help
much.

~~~
sushid
Which place is this? I kind of want to try now.

~~~
wahern
Great Eastern on Jackson St. I don't know if you can order straight off the
menu or if you need to clarify you want the live dish.

The first time we ordered it the shrimp weren't moving for several minutes, so
we felt deflated and resigned to eating unexciting raw shrimp. Someone picked
one up to eat it and let out a shriek when it jumped.

~~~
sushid
Thanks will give it a try!

------
bogomipz
I highly recommend the book "The Sushi Economy: Globalization and the Making
of a Modern Delicacy" by Sasha Issenber:

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000V5076G/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000V5076G/)

Its a fascinating read, the author spent 2 years traveling around the world
from fishing boats, to wholesalers, to sushi restaurants following the supply
chain.

~~~
marak830
Thanks for the tip, I'll check this one out.

------
BeeOnRope
This was news to me, but in the other direction: the claim is that 50-60
percent of fish served as sushi has been frozen at some point, implying that
40-50 has _never_ been frozen.

Given that most of the non-tuna species need to be frozen and the tuna supply
chain consists almost entirely of frozen fish outside of some high end
restaurants in big cities (and perhaps some fishing towns that make a up
vanishingly small portion of sushi consumption) - where is all this fresh fish
coming from?

On top of that, salmon and varieties of tuna seem to make up the large
majority of fish used in sushi. Yes, other options exist, especially at high-
end places, but go into your run-of-the-mill sushi joint pretty much anywhere
and those two dominate (not counting the "fake crab" that seems to make up
half of maki by weight these days - that's certainly frozen also). As above,
tuna is generally frozen, and salmon largely has to be, so where is all this
fresh fish at?

~~~
derekp7
Just because it hasn't been frozen doesn't mean that it is fresh either.
Consider the number of smoked fish options (such as smoked salmon) -- the fish
can be shipped refrigerated after smoking, and can last quite a while.

------
cageface
Enjoy your sushi while you can because at current fishing rates it will be
gone in our lifetimes, fresh or frozen.

[http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/sushi-obsession-
is...](http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/sushi-obsession-is-
destroying-our-oceans/)

~~~
bdamm
Surely that only means the price will rise to become an exotic delicacy,
rather than "gone"?

~~~
bfrog
We've eaten things to extinction before, so no, don't assume anything.

[https://www.britannica.com/list/6-animals-we-ate-into-
extinc...](https://www.britannica.com/list/6-animals-we-ate-into-extinction)

~~~
mveety
I'm still hesitant to agree that we caused the mammoth extinction. There just
weren't enough people at the time to do it with the technology we had,
especially in places that lack enough cliffs.

~~~
xyzzyz
We've had spears for quite a while now.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAvEmzjL_lA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAvEmzjL_lA)

------
CalChris
I asked a sushi chef about using local Pacific mackerel since I liked his
saba. He said that his mackerel came from Norway and that he wouldn't use
Pacific mackerel because of mercury levels.

I've eaten a ton of saba. He made great saba. But I can't eat it in most sushi
restaurants because it isn't fresh. Now this article talks about the fish
being fresh and that is one thing. Another is for something like saba which
takes about 24 hours of preparation. Salting + marinating, there is
differentiation in these. But when it's done, it's meant to be eaten. And if a
restaurant doesn't get enough orders, it get put back in the fridge.

And that tastes like old stale fish. I suppose I should ask when they make it
and come by that day.

BTW, my sushi chef closed his restaurant on University Ave and now caters
mostly to startups. My ex-gf was also a chef and she told me that it's hard to
make a living running a restaurant. It's much easier in catering since you
know exactly how much to prepare on a day.

[https://www.edokoberkeley.com/](https://www.edokoberkeley.com/)

~~~
hkmurakami
Good saba is hard to come by in the states. It's the one item I make sure to
order at every sushi place I go to in Japan, because it's so hard to get a
good one back home.

~~~
panabee
where is your favorite in the bay area?

~~~
hkmurakami
Not really happy with any of them for various reasons so I'll cop out and say
Shunji in LA. X_X

That being said I think plenty of places in SF offer high quality nigiri, and
a few places in South bay are decent places for casual stops. None really
entice me to frequent them.

------
NikolaeVarius
I always found the cognitive dissonance interesting when people claim the best
sushi is never frozen, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that even at
places like Tsukiji Fish market, all the fish that is being offloaded from the
boats is all obviously frozen.

~~~
rnd33
In many places the 'best sushi' is not even legal. For example, EU regulations
state that fish to be consumed raw must have been deep frozen (-20 C or lower)
for at least 24 hours prior to consumption, to kill any potential parasites.

This also means you can never eat 'fresh sushi'.

~~~
cpncrunch
After reading this story, I would never want any raw sushi:

[http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/alberta-man-
gets-...](http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/alberta-man-gets-first-
known-canadian-case-of-worms-from-grocery-store-raw-salmon)

~~~
eth0up
Or any of these: 1\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8_sF7kAnqY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8_sF7kAnqY)
costco 2\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM4RNIAnv5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM4RNIAnv5s)
costco (in store) 3\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL9CVDEkDt0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL9CVDEkDt0)
4\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yfJ88R2lI4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yfJ88R2lI4)
Flash-freezing is utterly essential, especially with present sea conditions;
however, I don't eat any fish raw anymore, frozen nor fresh.

------
tremendo
_" Superfreezing is a relatively new technology that was developed in the
1990’s that drops the core temperature of a 500 pound tuna to minus 70 degrees
below zero."_

Found this part interesting. I worked for a short while in fisheries in the
mid to late 90s, and graded fish for Sushi. There/then fish was iced, not
frozen, as soon as captured to slow their metabolism, reduce any after-effects
of stress, a cut is made so they also bleed, and die faster and as peacefully
as possible. They are kept long enough to allow for rigor mortis (I guess what
this article refers to aging), so when it ends it results in soft, melts-in-
your-mouth meat. But no, not frozen, not for the "No. 1" destined for best
clients. Lesser (cheaper) restaurants yes, frozen, older, lower quality fish.

This article refers to the US, and yes most of it is far, far away from the
coast, and only way is to freeze it to distribute it such long distances.
Unless flown in, obviously making the product much more expensive. So sure, as
title says "Most sushi fish isn't fresh". In the same way, most sushi isn't
the best sushi. And in many cases it doesn't really matter, if you want a
quick and still yummy meal.

For tuna you can readily tell, even if you haven't trained your sense of
smell, by the color. Most tuna here in the US you can see it a matte pink,
instead of deep, alive, blood-like red, and you know right away it's been
frozen.

Anyway, it seems to me the article gives the idea that freshness doesn't
matter at all for sushi. I disagree.

~~~
exhilaration
_Most tuna here in the US you can see it a matte pink, instead of deep, alive,
blood-like red, and you know right away it 's been frozen._

I thought it was red because it's treated with carbon monoxide?
[http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/dining/tunas-red-glare-
it-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/dining/tunas-red-glare-it-could-be-
carbon-monoxide.html)

~~~
mabramo
Some tuna actually is red, though. For example, yellow fin tuna. Caught one
last month and when I got home my brother and I made sashimi... Meaning that
we cut it into slices and ate it. It was so, so good. I still like it after
it's been frozen, but it's no longer good for sashimi.

------
pmoriarty
_" When butchered in this matter, the fish doesn’t know that it’s dead."_

Otherwise it would know it's dead?

~~~
jjulius
Your reaction was the same as mine initially, until I realized they meant that
the fish's body doesn't respond as though it normally would once it's dead.

~~~
mc32
Yeah, I think it's related to something like this:
[http://mashable.com/2017/07/07/sliced-tuna-fish-
flailing/#xe...](http://mashable.com/2017/07/07/sliced-tuna-fish-
flailing/#xeQh12.O1Pq8)

------
vytis
Interesting related fact that salmon sushi is a recent invention by norwegians
and is not served in traditional restaurants in Japan -
[http://www.npr.org/2015/09/18/441530790/how-the-desperate-
no...](http://www.npr.org/2015/09/18/441530790/how-the-desperate-norwegian-
salmon-industry-created-a-sushi-staple)

------
derrekl
I was in Kauai about 10 years back and a friend of ours who hunts goats traded
with a friend for some fresh of the boat tuna. We tried a bit of that tuna the
first day, maybe 8 hours after it was caught, sashimi style. It was terrible,
just as our friend told us it'd be. It was super chewy and tough. Next night
the stuff was great, and two nights later it was FANTASTIC!

------
_sy_
I can confirm that it tastes best when you wait. I occasionally go Ahi fishing
off the shore of Kauai with friends, and they usually ice it right away and
wait a couple of days before cutting it for sashimi.

------
colemannugent
If it tastes good and doesn't make you sick, who cares?

~~~
bllguo
That was my reaction. But it's actually just a poorly chosen title. In fact
the article basically says that freshness is actually not important in sushi

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
_" Maguro and toro needs at least a week of aging, sometimes up to two weeks
in refrigeration. Sake (salmon) and Ohyou (halibut) requires around five days
of aging. On the other hand, according to Kaz Matsune, fish like binna maguro
(albacore tuna) and katsuo (bonito) taste better without aging."_

The amount you age the fish is important.

------
ithinkinstereo
My understanding is that all "sushi-grade" fish is previously frozen. The
freezing process is apparently necessary to kill/remove parasites in certain
fish breeds.

~~~
bogomipz
There's actually no such thing as "sushi-grade" fish.

There is no standard or regulation that designates fish as "sushi-grade." It's
a popular misconception.

~~~
evincarofautumn
I always thought it was a marketing term, where a certain store is willing to
say “we’re confident that this can be eaten raw” and not some legal or
regulatory standard of quality or freshness—that is, I thought the idea that
it’s a popular misconception was itself a popular misconception. Moreover,
I’ve even heard it used to describe simply “species of fish that are commonly
considered safe to eat raw”.

------
abalone
Another surprise: French macarons are often frozen prior to display in
patisseries. A French chef told me this was a professional secret. The Bouchon
cookbook says it makes them "chewier and more fun"[1].

[1]
[https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/30892/freezing-b...](https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/30892/freezing-
bouchon-bakery-macarons-whole-cookie-or-just-the-halves)

------
nraynaud
In France it’s forbidden to sell fish for raw consumption that has not been
frozen at some point.

------
justinator
We used to eat shellfish at least "while it's still smiling" \- caught right
off the side of the boat, force the shell open with a knife, perhaps a dab of
hot sauce, then down the hatch!

It's certainly a unique experience.

------
leekyle333
I wonder if this is the case with Salmon. I always find fresh wild caught
salmon much better during the summer, than the flash frozen stuff. Could be
due to the lower fat content in sockeye.

~~~
cbhl
Salmon sushi is actually a modern invention; the result of the Norway
government having too much fish in the 80s and needing someone to buy it.

[http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/09/16/440951873/episo...](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/09/16/440951873/episode-651-the-
salmon-taboo)

------
nubbins
I think there are two very different definitions of fresh causing confusion.
I've seen US supermarkets keep fish on display for like a week, at which point
it develops a very off "fishy" odor. I don't even think it occurs to the
Japanese that anyone would do this, or they would be horrified to find out,
but when Americans talk about fresh sushi they probably mostly mean sushi NOT
having the nasty off flavors.

You rarely hear "that was a great burger, so fresh" because we don't have such
a quality control problem with beef (as far as I know).

------
G4BB3R
Go vegan :D

------
superb_herb
Unless you live in a coastal area and know a fisherman personally, all the
fish you are eating -- whether from a fish-monger or your grocery store, has
been previously frozen and thawed.

My friend was neighbors with a fisherman in Cape Cod. Now THAT was fresh fish.

~~~
keevie
Which is a good thing, if you're interested in not getting parasites!

