
New Coke, 35 years on - totaldude87
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/new-coke-coca-cola-failed-product-launches-history-a9479116.html
======
teslabox
I like the conspiracy theory about how the New Coke fiasco was actually
deliberate subterfuge for switching the product from sugar to high fructose
corn syrup. Corn-syrup coca-cola tastes different than Coca Kola's classic
sugar formula, and allegedly people noticed the difference when the Coca-Cola
company was doing tests, pre-New Coke.

My cousin-in-law only drinks "Mexican Coke" (but Mexicans drinking coca-cola
in their country get HFCS-Coke too. Wikipedia says only mexican coca-kola
produced for export is made with sugar).

Fortunately HFCS is no longer contaminated with mercury [0] [1] (or less
contaminated?), thanks to the efforts of a whistleblower [2].

The last problem to deal with is how HFCS preparations might have more
calories than listed on the label, on account of residual starch molecules
that aren't split into glucose. Residual starch adds calories but don't affect
the perceived sweetness.

I previously wrote about how the original soda products were herbal beverages:
Coca-Cola is made with flavorings from the Coca leaf and the Kola nut, Root
beer is made with roots, Dr. Pepper's 21 plant flavors, etc:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17979670](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17979670)

[0] Mercury in High-Fructose Corn Syrup? - [https://www.webmd.com/food-
recipes/news/20090127/mercury-in-...](https://www.webmd.com/food-
recipes/news/20090127/mercury-in-high-fructose-corn-syrup#1) (2009)

[1] [https://www.iatp.org/documents/much-high-fructose-corn-
syrup...](https://www.iatp.org/documents/much-high-fructose-corn-syrup-
contaminated-mercury-new-study-finds) (2009)

[2] FDA WHISTLEBLOWER SPEAKS OUT ABOUT MERCURY IN OUR FOOD -
[https://www.foodwhistleblower.org/fda-whistleblower-
speaks-o...](https://www.foodwhistleblower.org/fda-whistleblower-speaks-out-
about-mercury-in-our-food/)

[edit: added some words to first paragraph re sugar and Coca-Cola company's
taste tests pre-new-coke.]

~~~
briandear
> Wikipedia says only mexican coca-kola produced for export is made with
> sugar).

Wikipedia is wrong. When I'm in Guadalajara and buy bottles of coke locally,
it has sugar. It's an anecdote, but it does disprove Wikipedia. One specific
independent bottler in Mexico wanted to use HFCS, but there are other bottlers
other than Arca Continental. Coca-Cola FEMSA is the largest bottler in Mexico
and they use sugar.

~~~
strbean
I'm curious about the price difference between HFCS and sugar in Mexico. My
understanding is that in the US, HFCS prices are artificially low due to corn
subsidies while sugar prices are artificially high due to protectionist
policies. I wonder if HFCS is any cheaper outside the US.

~~~
kalleboo
I believe in Europe, they mostly use beet sugar rather than cane or HFCS. It
looks like the EU in the recent past heavily regulated their sugar market
though

Japan has a high usage of HFCS (40% of sugars), and I always assumed that was
due to trade agreements with the US giving access to cheap corn since there is
so little domestic corn production.

------
stuff4ben
I wish someone would spill the secrets of how New Coke came to be from inside
CocaCola's offices. From the boardroom to the marketing dept, to the "chefs"
who made the new recipe. Now that would be an interesting read. To see the
decisions that were made and office politics that shaped what almost caused
CocaCola to go under.

~~~
yodon
The path to New Coke was quite simple, actually. Coke learned that in blind
taste tests, consumers overwhelmingly preferred Pepsi to Coke, by a wide
margin and repeatable across a wide range of tests. The preference was simple
- Pepsi was sweeter, and in blind taste tests people overwhelmingly preferred
the sweeter drink.

This hard data was seen as indicating a looming crisis and management felt the
need to act and act quickly. What the data failed to show, however, was how
brand aware consumers perceived the two drinks. Even though blind taste tests
showed overwhelming preference for Pepsi, if you left the labels on the cans
consumers overwhelmingly preferred Coke.

Coke management listened to the researchers but all parties concerned failed
to understand what the research was and wasn't testing, and what conclusions
one could and couldn't draw from it.

~~~
yodon
To add a little more color, the "which is sweeter" question, which drove the
shift to New Coke, was as a leadership failure actually secondary to the
deeper brand failing that was New Coke. Coke's brand has always been a golden-
age concept, a celebration of all the good times you've had in the past
drinking coke with family and friends (think of all the old timey photos and
artwork you've seen in Coke ads, and it's been like that pretty much from the
start). Pepsi's brand is the reverse, it's new and exciting and the future
(for many years their slogan was "The choice of a new generation"). You'd
think this was because Coke was the older product and Pepsi was the newer
product, but they were both launched around the same time, and both are
ancient compared to the age of their average consumers. When Coke became New
Coke, it wasn't just making its flavor look like Pepsi's, it was committing
the much bigger sin of making its brand look like Pepsi's. Given how
tremendously much stronger Coke's brand was than Pepsi's, the idea of
rebranding itself as "New" was the much deeper failing on Coke management's
part than the flavor change, and arguably was the thing consumers actually
reacted most negatively to, because it was destroying their relationship to
one of the strongest brands in the world. No one wanted Coke to be New. They
had Pepsi for that. They preferred Coke to be their connection to the golden
age of all their past good times.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _because it was destroying their relationship to one of the strongest brands
> in the world. No one wanted Coke to be New. They had Pepsi for that. They
> preferred Coke to be their connection to the golden age of all their past
> good times._

I don't believe anything resembling this kind of thinking process goes through
a typical customer's head, even subconsciously. It doesn't pass the smell test
as a rationalization, and sounds to me like something people in advertising
industry write to each other in reports to justify their high salaries.

I propose a simpler hypothesis: customers have already self-selected
themselves into preferring Coke or Pepsi. New Coke didn't introduce any new
value - people who would like it were already drinking Pepsi. At the same
time, its existence was received as a _threat_ by Coke customers, as a New
Coke seems like something that's going to replace the good ol' Coke. People
don't like change; in particular, they don't like when a product that works
for them is changed, because that change is almost universally for the
worse[0].

The difference between the above and what you described is that my hypothesis
doesn't require from a customer to have anything other than a "Coke = cola
drink that hits the 'sweet spot' for me" relationship. I don't see the reason
to believe consumer brand perception to be anything more than that. Especially
not consciously thinking about how a brand reminds one of the past, or
something.

\--

[0] - Short-term. Sometimes it's worth to e.g. mix up user interfaces in
software to enable further improvement. But with soft drinks, there's nothing
other than short term.

~~~
NoodleIncident
I find it strange how many people on the internet are convinced ads and
branding just... don't work? They obviously do. Even if you think they don't
work on you (which you're probably wrong about), they work on everyone else.

~~~
renewiltord
No no, I think we buy the branding thing. I'm pretty sure part of the reason I
have the car I do is a branding thing, etc. etc. I'm like the #1 brand sucker
on the planet. But that's at the "these guys are outdoorsy", "you're
sophisticated", "you're cool" level not at the "this represents classic
American values vs. this is the new generation" thing. That sounds like
nonsense to me.

Just clarifying that it isn't whether branding works but the shape of the
working. Like, I admit being easily influenced by them, just not in that
direction. Like Red Bull is cool action sports, right? But I've never had a
Red Bull when I've gone skiing. Not saying branding doesn't directly modify my
associations, just that the way isn't what yodon said.

~~~
NoodleIncident
Ironically (coincidentally?), I think you can apply a direct analogy between
the tastes of Coke and Pepsi, and their branding. People have a preference for
one drink over the other, but they can't articulate why. Most people can't
tell one from the other in a blind taste test, much less describe what
specifically they prefer about one over the other. They can still taste it,
though, and the experts can break down the flavors and sensations to describe
the differences between the two.

I suspect the branding is perceived the same way. People pick up on all of
these things, and the experts have a language to describe their branding
strategy, and they're very deliberate about what they do and do not include in
their ads. People don't express it or notice it consciously, but they can
still tell when the marketing feels "wrong" compared to the ads they've seen
before.

------
franze
Not mentioned in the article was the "market research gone wrong". New Coke
was market tested in supermarkets with taste samples and questionnaires. New
Coke was preferred in these taste tests.

But the context was wrong, a small sip in the supermarket under surveillance
is not a bottle at home / cinema / picknik.

But: "almost ruined" is wrong, too. After this CocaCola basically got the
status as USA national heritage.

So maybe it was the most successful marketing ploy in modern history.
(CocaCola denies this).

Source: Some marketing books from the 90s and 00s.

~~~
chrisseaton
I heard something about sweetness? If you're taking little sips you much
prefer sweeter, but you wouldn't want an entire drink of that much sweetness.

I heard that's why Pepsi Cola (sweeter than Coke) wins in those blind taste
tests... but everyone still drinks Coca-Cola instead.

~~~
wolco
There is something McDonald's level addicting with coke that you just don't
get from a pepsi.

It's not the taste but the feeling afterwards.

------
tomohawk
Where they really screwed up was when they changed from using sugar to high
fructose corn syrup. This drastically changed the taste of Coke. If you want
original Coke, you can get Mexican Coke, available from many stores, which
still uses sugar.

I find American coke to be an entirely different beverage, which is almost
undrinkable.

------
ajphdiv
Do they have different formulas for different countries? I’ve had coke
products in several different countries and they all tasted different to me.
The most noticeable was a coke in Germany tasted less sweet compared to US
coke.

~~~
Ancalagon
yes, in the US anyways corn syrup is used in place of sugar cane which is used
in say Mexico

~~~
RandallBrown
I don't believe this is (100%) true anymore.

Mexican Coke you buy in the US _is_ sweetened with cane sugar, but Mexican
Coke you buy in Mexico is often sweetened with high fructose corn syrup.

~~~
seisvelas
You are right that it is not 100% true, but it is mostly true.

The US uses corn syrup because the US government heavily subsidizes corn. Some
Mexican producers in Mexico do use corn syrup, which is a cheap import from
the US, but even here the majority use sugar.

This kind of thing happens in with other countries as well. In New Zealand you
can get local coke which is sugar-sweetened or imported American coke with
corn syrup. People didn't switch to corn syrup because it's better or even
cheaper in and of itself, they switched because the US government goes to
ridiculous lengths to make it cheap.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Maybe not "heavily". It was 2B out of a 50B corn crop. So, 4% classed as
'heavily subsidized'? And a large portion of this is in the form of insurance
against bad weather/crop loss. Otherwise, we'd have no farmers left in a
couple of year (everybody has a crop loss once in a while).

FWIW.

~~~
wolco
They invested to get the market to 50b at the expensive of other products that
could have been grown. The 2b figure just helps keep the edges from fraying.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
If something else had been supported to get that generous crop, we'd be
dissing it now. Like VHS vs Betamax, Corn won early and it won big. Not
surprising it went like that; so many things do.

Anyway it'd cost trillions to retool for some other staple crop now.

------
dannykwells
My understanding is that this was, long-term, very good for Coke. Check out
this line:

" On 11 July 1985, once the extent of the soda brand’s mistake had become
evident, Coca-Cola relaunched the original recipe, rebranded as Coca-Cola
Classic.

According to the beverage corporation, the news of the drink’s long-awaited
return “made the front page of virtually every major newspaper”. "

Talk about free advertising!!

From a biased source: [https://www.coca-colacompany.com/news/the-story-of-one-
of-th...](https://www.coca-colacompany.com/news/the-story-of-one-of-the-most-
memorable-marketing-blunders-ever)

"The events of 1985 changed forever the dynamics of the soft-drink industry
and the success of The Coca-Cola Company, as the Coca-Cola brand soared to new
heights and consumers continued to remember the love they have for Coca-Cola.
"

~~~
mixmastamyk
I remember it often on the nightly news as well.

------
Gunax
What I find incredible is just how similar everything tastes.

Either my qualia are objectively different from everyone else's, or it's 90%
marketing fluff and psychological tribalism.

It's not so much that there can't be a difference between the various cokes,
Pepsis, and other brands--I just find it hard to believe that the difference
is so great that people can find one repulsive and the other divine.

It's all just sweet, fizzy drink. Side by side I might be able to tell coke
and new coke apart. I don't find it difficult to believe that people have a
preference. I find it difficult to believe that one could be so swayed by the
difference to revolt.

So I cannot shake that it's more tribal identity than taste... Sort of like
rock vs hip-hop.

Yea, I know telling people it's mostly mental is going to be controversial, so
sorry.

~~~
Marcus316
It's quite possible you're right, and I can't deny that my brain is pretty
twisted anyways. That said, I feel like there's a clear difference in taste
between brands, at least for my own taste buds.

I drink Coca-Cola as my preferred choice. I can't stand Pepsi (and will order
a new drink in a restaurant if Pepsi shows up when I ordered Coca-Cola; I can
tell, even if it's not labeled). There's a specific sweetness to each, to my
tastebuds. I also enjoy RC Cola, but it's also a different flavour from either
of the two most well-known brands.

I get pretty specific in my tastes, especially surrounding extra flavourings.
I dislike vanilla flavouring added to my colas, though I will still drink it
paired with another flavour such as orange or cherry.

I will choose Cherry Coke (classic) over just Coke any day, but will choose
just Coke over Cherry-Vanilla Coke. I'm willing to drink Wild Cherry Pepsi
(actually quite good), even though regular Pepsi is not a flavour I enjoy.

There's an interesting version of Pepsi called Pepsi Throwback (at least,
that's what it's called around here) which I also enjoy greatly. It uses a
different sweetener than regular Pepsi.

I can't stand either Diet Coke or Coke Zero (or any Diet soft drinks, really);
neither taste right, to me.

Now, I still think New Coke vs Coke was overblown. I don't fault the Coca-Cola
company for trying to shake things up a bit, and perhaps the new formula could
have appealed better, given time and a better launch. We'll never know, though
...

------
lukeduff
Then they ruined it (in the US at least) by replacing the sugar with corn
syrup.

~~~
vonmoltke
That happened before the "New Coke" debacle.

~~~
derekp7
And it happened gradually. "Ingredients: ... Sugar and/or High Fructose Corn
Syrup ..." appeared on the label for the longest time.

------
bigtex
Who else remembers the original Crystal Pepsi, before they changed the
formula? I will admit I drank that stuff like water.

~~~
abawany
I bought a few for old times sake during the last limited release in 2016
(edit:err, 2018 I guess, [1]). They didn't keep for very long and tasted a bit
off to me or maybe my palette has evolved.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Pepsi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Pepsi)

------
dempedempe
The end of Mad Men implies that Don Draper is the creator of Coca-Cola's "Buy
the World a Coke" ad[1].

Is he also responsible in later years for New Coke?

[1]:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GxtZpFl3pPM&feature=youtu.be](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GxtZpFl3pPM&feature=youtu.be)

------
munificent
This "article" is a brilliant little ad for new the Stranger Things-themed re-
release of New Coke.

~~~
armadsen
You mean the re-release they did a year ago and that is long since sold out?
If this is advertising for that, it's a pretty dumb strategy to publish it a
year too late. (Amazon has them but only from third party sellers.)

------
7thaccount
I've never had New Coke, but heard it was good. Can anyone speak to the
flavor?

~~~
timcederman
I bought some as part of the Stranger Things promotion, so assuming it
actually does match the original recipe, it was pretty good. I did blind taste
tests with the rest of the family and everyone picked New Coke as their
preferred flavour. I guess the best way to describe it is it seemed a bit
sweeter (but not more sugary), in the same way Tab had a sweeter flavor
profile compared to Diet Coke.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Strangely, in blind taste tests, a majority of folks chose Diet Pepsi over all
the others (all other Pepsi; all other Coke). Which shows, soft drink
preferences are largely cultural?

~~~
fl0wenol
Very interesting, while I do not like the flavor of Pepsi, I do crave Diet
Pepsi every once in awhile, even though I normally prefer Coke products. I
thought maybe I was the only one.

As far as colas go, Diet Pepsi has a decent flavor profile; it's sweet but not
cloying or syrupy. And it has enough of whatever acids or other flavorings to
mask / distract from the aftertaste of artificial sweeteners.

That's the one thing that hurts Diet Coke, I think, particularly if it isn't
cold.

------
ycombi3
They have had very deceptive advertising tricks in the past, such as "original
formula" not being the original at all, and having to fix it to "original
taste." To me that is very underhanded.

------
th0ma5
My theory is Cherry Coke is actually cherry flavored New Coke. Also, I tried
the Stranger Things rerelease of New Coke and it is good, I feel like they
should bring it back.

------
josh_fyi
Or possibly New Coke was a huge boost, through the attention that the
controversy aroused. After the New Coke fiasco wrapped up, Coca Cola sales
soared.

~~~
projektfu
I agree with this. Coke was really hurting in the overall market when New Coke
was introduced.

------
TomatoTomato
I wonder if they had made a subtle changes year after year that people's
tastes would have adjusted.

------
gambiting
"According to Mullins, the issue was not just the new taste, but that the
company had done something “un-American” - taken away his “freedom of
choice”."

Ah the good old "I want freedom of choice, but if you exercise yours then
that's un-American". And we think that entitlement is a 21st century
invention.

~~~
kiplkipl
Although the new definition of entitlement - that means exactly the opposite
of the old definition - is.

~~~
titanomachy
Do you mean that the old definition is the right to have something, and the
new version is the mistaken perception of that right?

~~~
kiplkipl
Exactly. So now using the old definition can be ambiguous and has to be
replaced by something 'wordier'. I can't do anything about it but I do think
it's a shame.

~~~
majormajor
The idea that "rightful entitlement" has a much older heritage than "perceived
entitlement" doesn't seem supported:
[https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4240](https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4240)

> The earliest cluster of uses of entitlement meaning "(rightful) claim" that
> I've found is associated with post-WWII veterans' benefits, as in this 1947
> Popular Mechanics ad

> In the 1960s, psychoanalysts also start using entitled and entitlement with
> strongly negative connotations, resulting in the emergent term of art
> "narcissistic entitlement".

> Meanwhile, by the 1970s, the phrase entitlement programs is being used in
> its modern sense (defined benefits paid by the federal government) in
> discussions of the federal budget — and the connotations are by no means
> positive.

~~~
kiplkipl
>Meanwhile, by the 1970s, the phrase entitlement programs is being used in its
modern sense (defined benefits paid by the federal government)

Right, but that's not the modern sense for the 1.2 billion English speakers
who are not in the US

------
thulecitizen
Yay! Sugar water!

