
K-9 Mail removed from Google Play Store due to listing description - commoner
https://twitter.com/obra/status/1303442579107831809
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pwg
K-9 Mail is available in the F-Droid store:

[https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.fsck.k9/](https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.fsck.k9/)

~~~
CameronNemo
So glad I am using a ROM with signature spoofing so that fdroid can keep my
apps up to date without me prodding it.

[https://lineage.microg.org/](https://lineage.microg.org/)

~~~
dheera
First time I heard about microG. I don't get it -- why is it called "LineageOS
for microG" and not "microG for LineageOS"? Am I missing something? Isn't
microG something that runs on top of LineageOS and not the other way around?

~~~
Iolaum
It is because microG isn't an app but a system component of the operating
system. It gets baked in when building the system.

~~~
dheera
So what is microG baked into? AOSP?

~~~
Klinky
>LineageOS unofficial fork with built-in microG gapps implementation

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dheera
So it's LineageOS for microG for (LineageOS unofficial fork)?

As in an official rectification of the unofficial fork with microG in the
middle?

(confused)

~~~
Klinky
It's simply a fork of LineageOS designed to run microG out of the box, the
builds are there for ease of use. microG is still a separate project from
LineageOS. They are "LineageOS [builds meant] for [use with] microG".

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znpy
Google continues the war against its own users.

~~~
II2II
It's more like waging a war against its developers, which is one of the
reasons why users adopt Android.

That being said, I think that Google did the right thing in this case. I know
of and use K9, so I trust it. Google does not have this privilege. While they
probably have more than enough data to determine if the app is trustworthy in
the first place, it would be difficult to determine if a trustworthy app went
rogue in a timely manner.

As for the issue, keyword stuffing is way to manipulate search results. In
this case, keyword stuffing appears to have been used appropriately. Now
imagine that people started stuffing in terms like Gmail or Outlook to benefit
from brand recognition. Given the scales that Google operate at, it is
unlikely that they could detect such transgressions effectively for all cases.

The immediate removal is problematic, but it is difficult for outsiders to
understand how giving notice would impact Google. Some developers may simply
put such warnings on the back burner, or even forget about it, if given
advance notice. Others may manipulate the system by taking advantage of the
advance warning (e.g. using it to stretch out their transgression).

~~~
panpanna
Please consider this:

A company whose AI powered app store can't even handle simple issues like this
wants to build self-driving cars.

~~~
viro
Certain issues aren't very deterministic. Traffic laws and rules are. Wether
someone is acting in bad faith is not.

~~~
colanderman
Unfortunately self-driving cars also have to deal with nondeterministic
humans.

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renewiltord
Why would this not be a warning before a delist wtf

~~~
toast0
Well, actually telling people what needs to be changed is a huge step forward
for Google. Normally, I'd expect them to just turn it off and say you violated
terms and ignore any attempts to contact.

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AndrewDucker
Back

[https://twitter.com/obra/status/1303581115647549440?s=19](https://twitter.com/obra/status/1303581115647549440?s=19)

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linuxhansl
Cool. Get it via F-Droid instead.

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panpanna
Off topic: k9 badly needs a UI update. Maybe the folks who fixed blender can
help?

On topic: sometimes I feel k9 is a lost cause. With Microsoft and Google
deliberately adding non-standard crap to their protocols I am surprised k9 had
survived so far.

~~~
commoner
The next version (now in beta) has a refreshed UI. There's a screenshot in
this blog post:

[https://k9mail.app/2020/06/01/Whats-Up-
With-K-9-Mail](https://k9mail.app/2020/06/01/Whats-Up-With-K-9-Mail)

~~~
panpanna
Looks much better!

If I can get to work with outlook enterprise accounts I will probably switch.

------
bfrog
Time to starting voting with my wallet away from Apple and Google phones I
think.

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aidenn0
Why did I think k-9 was no longer maintained?

~~~
commoner
K-9 Mail's last stable release was in September 2018. However, they've been
steadily producing beta releases and "would like to release a new stable
version as soon as possible."

[https://k9mail.app/2020/06/01/Whats-Up-
With-K-9-Mail](https://k9mail.app/2020/06/01/Whats-Up-With-K-9-Mail)

------
drKarl
I used K-9 for a long time, but I got a new phone with Android 10, and K-9 is
not supported for Android 10... I switched to FairEmail and it's great. Even
syncing which was not working very well on K-9 works great on Fairphone. Got
it on F-droid anyway...

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joeberon
“You are blocked from following this account” guess I got hit by one of the
old school block lists?

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mproud
I mean, sorry, but that does seems kind of scummy on the developer’s part.

~~~
obrajesse
We added that to the description because otherwise folks searching for "k9" or
"k9mail" or "k-9 email" couldn't find the app or got pushed to sketchy malware
pretending to be K-9. If Play's search worked, we wouldn't have had to stick
keywords in the description. (But also, it wasn't against policy when we did
it 5+ years ago. And I absolutely don't mind them asking us to change it. But
the zero-strikes removal thing pisses me off.)

~~~
lern_too_spel
Searching for those works now, so the rule against spamming the description
makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the hamfisted enforcement. If it were
a Google app, it would not have been delisted, and that is an antitrust
lawsuit waiting to happen.

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senectus1
I mean... Google was right to do this, but K-9 Mail was right to do what they
did as well.

Not sure how you fix this, other than Google apply some of their search smarts
to the playstore that they have on the search engine.

~~~
obrajesse
Original author of K-9 here (but not an active dev).

Also the person who added that text to the description...probably about 5
years ago.

My only real complaint is that Google pulled the app with zero notice. It
feels abusive to pull apps from the Play store for a non-malicious violation
of the terms (that may well predate those terms) like this.

Even a 48 hour notice of "we will remove your app if you don't change the
description" would have been pretty reasonable.

The solution is straightforward and the team is already on top of a
resubmission with an updated description. This is absolutely not a hill I want
to die on.

~~~
politelemon
I've had my app removed with zero notice, and it was due to an Oxford comma in
the short description. No notice or warning of any kind. It was also a
description untouched for several years.

It's difficult to describe the stress of having to deal with what is
presumably an indiscriminate algorithm, potential heuristic, or some new
quota.

~~~
zingermc
Does the policy disallow Oxford commas?

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roelschroeven
As far as I understand it, the policy disallows listings in the short
description, and the algorithm wrongly categorized the sentence as a listing
because of the Oxford comma.

~~~
lsaferite
Isn't an Oxford comma, by definition, part of a list of items?

