
Ask HN: Am I the longest-serving programmer – 57 years and counting? - genedangelo
In May of 1963, I started my first full-time job as a computer programmer for Mitchell Engineering Company, a supplier of steel buildings.  At Mitchell, I developed programs in Fortran II on an IBM 1620 mostly to improve the efficiency of order processing and fulfillment.  Since then, all my jobs for the past 57 years have involved computer programming.  I am now a data scientist developing cloud-based big data fraud detection algorithms using machine learning and other advanced analytical technologies.  Along the way, I earned a Master’s in Operations Research and a Master’s in Management Science, studied artificial intelligence for 3 years in a Ph.D. program for engineering, and just two years ago I received Graduate Certificates in Big Data Analytics from the schools of business and computer science at a local university (FAU).  In addition, I currently hold the designation of Certified Analytics Professional (CAP).  At 74, I still have no plans to retire or to stop programming.
======
pxsant
I am 80 years old and still working full time in IT. Although I evolved from
pure programming to project management and business analysis the past few
years. Originally started out working at Cape Canaveral as a radar and
telemetry engineer and moved into programming after I left there. Whenever I
interview, I completely ignore the age issue. If the interviewer is to dumb to
recognize the value of my knowledge and experience, that is on them. Finally
completed my PhD in Computer science when I was in my 60's.

~~~
jkingsbery
How did you go about getting your phd? Did you take a break from paid work to
go to school? Did you work on your thesis nights/ weekends?

Do you feel like you learned from your advisors, some if whom I'd imagine were
younger than you?

Did you study an area related to your work at the time? Or did you use it to
learn a new area?

~~~
manish_gill
+1 I'm deeply interested. Been thinking a lot about doing a Masters in AI/ML
but I'd rather not stop working. Been considering part time masters programs
but finding them is tricky.

~~~
jetti
I did my Master’s part-time at DePaul University with almost all of the
program online while I was working. They have an AI track but I am not sure
how good it is.

~~~
manish_gill
Do you think it was worth it? Did you like the program?

~~~
gcoladon
Have you considered [https://omscs.gatech.edu/](https://omscs.gatech.edu/)?

Disclosure: I am taking my 6th course of 10 as a current student in that
program

~~~
pensatoio
What do you like and dislike about the program? It’s been on my wish list for
several years now, but I’m hesitant to commit.

~~~
wan23
I'm also a student in OMSCS, on my fifth class of ten.

Likes:

\- It's very affordable. My company's education reimbursement is able to cover
the whole program.

\- The courses are rigorous and I don't feel like I'm retreading very much
from my undergrad.

\- I'm going to end up with a degree from a top program that is exactly the
same as is granted to students who attended on campus.

Dislikes:

\- The course selection is a bit limited. Some of the classes that I want the
most are only available on campus.

\- Slack and Reddit are active, but I feel like I'm missing the social aspect
of being a student.

\- Some people are skeptical of the online format, which is frustrating
sometimes.

------
aws_ls
Welcome to HN and for making this place more magical by your presence. Have
seen other very senior programmers here over the years. Paul Lutus comes to
mind now[1].

One question: Do you go through a mid life crisis in programming in your
40s/50s?

My story (just felt like sharing): I am in my 40s and have been programming
for 30 years (I first wrote in Fortran in my Engineering College, 1st
semester). Later professionally coded in C++ for around 10 years (and still
keep coming back to it, as needed). Java for 10 years. Golang for 7 years. And
Python for last 2-3 years. And there were other languages like Visual basic
(late 90s). A lot of Unix shell scripting. I still think, I am at my best. But
do have occasional self doubts. The main difference from younger days, which
is perceptible to me, is the need for eye glasses, and needing slightly bigger
fonts on occasions (HN is perfect that way).

I teach/guide my elder son, in programming, who just turned 20, and doing well
as a programmer - did half of K&R C chapters and decent in algorithmic
programming. Spent few months at Codeforces website and reached specialist
level (Next level is Expert, which is generally considered respectable by any
standard). And he also likely lurks on HN. :)

So now, when I see your message, it only makes me happy, that HN has likely at
least 3 generation of programmers if not more.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=lutusp](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=lutusp)

Edit: typo

~~~
jv22222
@aws_ls I wanted to surface this answer to a question about burnout answered
by genedangelo. I is on page 2 here but I think it is relevant to what you are
asking.

> genedangelo 1 day ago

> The one thing that comes to mind is to avoid the "hammer looking for a nail"
> syndrome. I see this all the time, especially in academia. Rather than worry
> about learning all the latest stuff, concentrate on solving the problem at
> hand in the simplest and most effective manner. If that requires you to
> learn new things, then that's a great time to expand your repertoire -
> working on a specific problem. Of course you have to strike a balance, but
> mainly concentrate on solving problems rather than being up-to-date on all
> the latest stuff and trying to find the proverbial nail for your new hammer.

Additionally, I am in a coder in my 50s and I have to say I am not going
through any kind of mid life crisis in programming!

Like genedangelo, I just focus on problems that need to get solved and I
really don't care how I solved it as long as I use a great tool that is meant
for that job.

Super happy to learn a new tech if it makes sense for the problem.

There was a phase a few years ago where folks were using node.js to build all
kinds of websites, including content heavy text based sites that would be
better served as static html or dynmaic Ruby, PHP etc.

I think that's the classic mistake of a hammer looking for a nail and I can
imagine it was really unsatisfying to build those kinds of sites with that
kind of tech and might even contribute to burnout (just speculating).

~~~
aws_ls
Thanks a lot @jv22222 for sharing your own perspective apart from highlighting
@genedangelo 's reply.

Just to clarify, I am also not going through a crisis as such, thankfully.
Just a doubt on future continued ability lingers on occasions.

What you say, makes sense to me. After a few decades, we just see some
patterns repeating with different names - RPC -> CORBA -> RMI -> Web servcies
(based on SOAP) -> REST (based on JSON) -> Google RPC (going again to binary
style) ... and so on. Not being cynical. Things progress in a way, but also
have echos of the past.

------
geophile
Being 63, I don't get to say this very often: I am one of the youngest people
in this conversation.

Delighted to read these stories about even-older-than-me old-timers. Even
though I am a relative spring chicken, I'll list my old-timey computing
experiences:

\- Started programming on programmable Wang and Monroe calculators.

\- PDP-8m in high school. 12k 12-bit words for four terminals running Basic.
By special arrangement, I could take over the whole thing and use FORTRAN.

\- IBM-370 in college, and I spent lots of hours on an IBM 029 keypunch.
(That's where I developed my love of loud, clicky keyboards.)

\- First job with Datasaab (yes, a computer division of Saab), and I
programmed in their weird DIL-16 language.

\- PDP-11 in grad school.

\- Various VAXen in my early working life. Picked up Emacs in 1985 and now
it's in my fingertips.

\- A buddy and I wrote a book intended to support people who needed to work
with a large variety of computing environments, (a real problem my buddy
encountered). It was instantly obsolete, as it was published as minis were
dying and PCs were becoming dominant. ([https://www.amazon.ae/Computer-
Professionals-Quick-Reference...](https://www.amazon.ae/Computer-
Professionals-Quick-Reference-Vassiliou/dp/0070672121))

\- Many years in startups, mostly in Unix/Linux environments.

Retired now, but still enjoying programming. Having a blast with my current
project:
[https://github.com/geophile/marcel](https://github.com/geophile/marcel).

~~~
elwell
> Picked up Emacs in 1985 and now it's in my fingertips.

I don't _think_ this means the dreaded 'emacs pinky'...

~~~
holtalanm
man, I didn't know emacs pinky was a thing until now.

------
brians
Knuth was being paid by Burroughs to implement an Algol-58 compiler in 1960.
He’s still programming, and seems to have advice for others on the subject.
But I don’t expect to see him here.

Congratulations on being in that company, and may it long continue.

~~~
owenversteeg
Partly cribbed from my comment downthread: I think I'd classify Knuth as the
slightly different "longest working computer scientist". He's known for his
quote "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it."

Or perhaps I'd classify him as the somewhat more sycophantic "longest working
genius" or "longest working cool guy". Heck, Knuth was uniquely awarded a
master's degree for his bachelor's because his work was considered so
outstanding, he's an organist and composer, and he's hilarious. I love this
quote about him: "If you had an optimization function that was in some way a
combination of warmth and depth, Don would be it."

A quote from him in an interview I found: "Indeed, as mentioned above, my
life's work was to be a teacher."

~~~
weinzierl
That's the way he likes to paint himself. From a lecture he gave at my
university I remember that he said something along the lines of, that he
usually came up with the idea and others wrote the code. From the experience
out of the same lecture, however, I can tell you first hand that he knows his
way around code and that he _can_ code. The lecture was indeed more of a hands
on workshop with Knuth spending most of the time in Emacs coding MMIXAL
assembly - pretty low level stuff actually.

~~~
lugged
Just because he can code doesn't mean he does on a daily basis for a day job,
which is what this ask hn post is about no?

~~~
bingerman
Knuth still does code basically on a daily basis. At least that's what he said
in some interview (writing two complete programs per week on average, small
and large, and that definitely qualifies him as software engineer among other
things) and I have no reason to doubt it.

[https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/programs.html](https://www-cs-
faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/programs.html)

------
pushcx
Margaret Hamilton started her first job in 1959 and is still working:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Hamilton_(software_en...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Hamilton_\(software_engineer\))

Depending how and whether you count academia, Donald Knuth may have a slightly
longer career:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth)

Feels like a decent chance you're third, then. Certainly you're one of the
longest-working programmers. Best of luck. :)

~~~
owenversteeg
Margaret Hamilton is an inspiration, but is she actually still working at age
83? I can't find anything that would indicate she is. For something like the
"longest-working programmer" I'd expect them to have been actually
"work"-working during that time.

And I think I'd classify Knuth as the slightly different "longest working
computer scientist". He's known for his quote "Beware of bugs in the above
code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."

Or perhaps I'd classify him as the somewhat more sycophantic "longest working
genius" or "longest working cool guy". Heck, Knuth was uniquely awarded a
master's degree for his bachelor's because his work was considered so
outstanding, he's an organist and composer, and he's hilarious. I love this
quote about him: "If you had an optimization function that was in some way a
combination of warmth and depth, Don would be it."

~~~
mbrock
She's the CEO of Hamilton Technologies:
[http://www.htius.com/](http://www.htius.com/)

~~~
radres
OP asked longest-serving programmer. That doesn't involve people who switched
to management or some other position like CEO.

~~~
tchaffee
You don't know that. I have served as CEO and still coded every day.

~~~
wolco
But that wasn't your primary role or you would identify as programmer not a
CEO.

Having said that no matter what role it's good to code everyday.

~~~
tchaffee
It was my primary role. I coded for many hours every day as CEO. It did make
for a lot of long days. I can identify as both CEO and programmer. And
musician and other things. No need for gatekeeping.

------
KineticLensman
Respect! I've only been programming since approx 1979. I still remember the
first time that I saw internet technology used in 1982 - transferring a file
from the US to the Uni of Leeds in the UK. I also have no plans to stop
although I have retired from full-time employment. Now just a hobbyist, who
programs every few days, at my own pace and on my own projects.

Here's my own thought. My last place of work did a lot of research into
teaching and simulation tech, and was heavily pushing AR / VR solutions from a
disruptor perspective. Some of the theoreticians were heavily into their
generation X/Y/Z perspectives and made a lot the advantages that young people
would have as 'digital natives'.

As someone who'd been using computers since before they were born, I was
quietly amused as being characterised as someone who couldn't properly
understand tech because I didn't program until I was age 17/18\. It could be
argued that many modern digital natives are really the locked-in inhabitants
of digital cities and walled gardens. I now characterise myself as a sort of
'digital settler' who in retrospect could be viewed as a pioneer on the
digital frontier (although this is not how I perceived it in the early 80s
when I was learning Pascal and then C on DEC, Amdhal and Vaxen).

I think my message for people who want to stay involved with the tech is to
decouple their enjoyment of it from their career aspirations. Of course, YMMV!

~~~
barnabee
> It could be argued that many modern digital natives are really the locked-in
> inhabitants of digital cities and walled gardens.

So true. I am lucky that almost all my programming is for personal
enjoyment/growth and have gotten a huge amount of pleasure from breaking out
of the infinity of abstractions that make up modern operating systems and
getting into electronics and microcontrollers (which can now be purchased for
pennies). There’s something great about truly understanding a system (also
true about larger scale and even non technical systems, but I have
particularly felt the change you describe from pioneer/settler to controller
citizens on modern computers).

------
satvikpendem
What do you think about all of the advances that happened in your time,
especially with what machine learning is capable of these days (fully
artificial human faces, for one)?

Any advice (technical or life) for us younger people?

~~~
genedangelo
I think someday we will be able to duplicate the basic brain of an infant in a
computer. Don't forget all the information is in our DNA and there's not that
much innate knowledge - most of the infant's brain relates to the amazing
capacity to learn. Someone will then take one home and train it like a human
baby. It will become so close to a human that it will spark debates about
whether it has self-awareness and whether it should have human rights. I
regret I won't be around to see it, but who knows - maybe I'll be back :-)

~~~
MauranKilom
> Don't forget all the information is in our DNA

I'm not so sure about that (but I'm pretty green on bioinformatics). I mean,
for one: [https://xkcd.com/1605/](https://xkcd.com/1605/). For two, if that
was the case we wouldn't need projects like folding@home and such to tell us
what the structures described by DNA actually look like. And for three, there
is a massive amount of influence on brain development from elsewhere (both
from within the fetal body and from the womb). It's a bit like having a
compiler's source code but nothing to bootstrap it with...

------
astatine
Respect! That's truly inspirational. At barely half the experience with 30
years I keep wondering about what next. I still do plenty of programming in C
(which, along with Z80 and 8086 assembly, is what I started with), Python and
JS with some dabbling in Go. I find the problem solving part as invigorating
and exhilarating as ever. What I do struggle with is the 100x additional lines
of code which will be needed to make that initial code usable by others. That
is needed and all that, but is stuff I would have done dozens of times in the
past in different contexts and sometimes approaches drudgery. I wonder if you
have any advice on how to keep the interest from flagging in a project past
that initial days/weeks of deep absorption. Thanks again for sharing this.

~~~
visarga
> I wonder if you have any advice on how to keep the interest from flagging in
> a project past that initial days/weeks of deep absorption.

I, too, have been programming for 32 years. I have thought about your question
many times. My current solution is to 'play more'. Allow yourself to play,
even when you are in the 100x additional part. Playing makes your passion
flare up again. By play I mean to start interesting side projects, ideas, try
something new.

------
genedangelo
Wow! I appreciate all the interest and feedback - quite unexpected. I'm glad I
found HN. I'll try to add more responses tomorrow.

~~~
dang
(I'm a moderator here. Welcome to HN!) Because you're likely to get a flood of
comments and questions overnight, I've switched an alpha feature on for your
account that will highlight new comments that have appeared since you last
viewed the page. They'll show up with a colored bar to the left of the
comment. The feature doesn't work perfectly yet, but hopefully it'll help you
keep track of what's been posted since you last looked. Note that the colored
bars will disappear each time you refresh the page.

Good luck and thanks for a great post!

(Anyone else who'd like this alpha feature turned on for their account is
welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll be happy to.)

~~~
genedangelo
I haven't been able to find the colored bar, maybe because of refreshes, but
let me suggest you use something that is searchable. That way you could use
CTRL-F and then jump from one to the next. Right now, I'm searching for " min"
(note the space) to find the most recent posts, and "1 hour", "2 hour" etc. to
find older ones.

~~~
dang
That's on the list to add.

------
onemoresoop
Congrats, you made it top 1 on HN! When we live in a world where experience is
treated as baggage it is remarkable to find people in places like here to
still appreciate it. I hope you will be able to enjoy your career until you
decide yourself to retire! I think a lot of younger folks here, who are old by
modern standards - I just turned 40 this year - are thirsty for some wisdom
and lots of questions will be asked. And please don’t be offended if someone
attacks you for some oppinion, this is the world we live in nowadays,
someone’d find a fault in almost anything or anyone.

------
pxsant
A bit of commentary on age discrimination in IT.

Of course, it exists. If you are over 40 and go on an interview where the
interviewer is a 20 something kid you know what I mean.

My approach to age discrimination can be summed up this way.

Screw them. I have more experience and knowledge in the field than 99% of the
people working in it, especially the managers. And I project that in an
interview. I don't give a crap what they think of my age and I make sure they
know that. I have what they need and they would be better off recognizing
that.

Does that attitude work every time? Of course not. But I will be dammed if I
will be submissive and put up with age discrimination. To hell with them. If
they don't give me a job, some with better sense will.

The key is NEVER GIVE UP.

------
millstone
Thank you, this is a wonderful post! Please share more of your story. (Write a
book, please).

I would love to hear answers to the following:

1\. What ideas proved useful throughout your career, and what ideas did you
change your mind about?

2\. What are your hobbies? Do you still program in your spare time - if so,
what? Or do you find other outlets?

3\. What went into the decision to go back to school? Did you get the PhD? If
not, did you get burned out, or what lured you away?

4\. What were the Big Ideas in software over your career that didn't work out?
Any that were better than expected?

5\. General successes/regrets/advice for these readers!

~~~
genedangelo
That's a lot of questions, but let me take a couple. I got my Master's degrees
in the early 1970's, when we used something called a "slide rule". In 1990 I
went back to school to update my skills and expand my knowledge into
artificial intelligence, which I had become enamored with. Unfortunately, I
didn't finish my PhD (big mistake!) because in 1995 I jumped on an opportunity
to join a company that had this amazing software that enabled very advanced
analytics on big data (except it wasn't called "big data" back then). The
software was called HOPS (for Heuristic Optimized Processing System) and I
still use it today to develop custom machine learning applications among other
things. I went back to school again in 2016 to fill in some gaps so would
qualify as a real "data scientist" \- the latest craze. I will say that HOPS
was and is the biggest idea in software that hasn't worked out - at least not
commercially. It's a system that is great for data scientists working on big
data and enables them to do their own programming with minimal effort. I'm
still hoping HOPS will take it's deserved place in the world of software
development. It will be a great loss if it doesn't! It's one reason I'm
holding on - to prove the exceptional things that it enables and prevent it
from being tossed into the trash bin of history.

~~~
bayonetz
Looked up “HOPS (for Heuristic Optimized Processing System)” but didn’t find
any good direct hits. Can you point me to some good starting points?

------
intpete
Not looking to compete for the crown, but I have been involved with software
development on and off since 1970. I started college in 1969, and really loved
my liberal arts and social science courses, but began having panic attacks in
class (I found out many years later that I was bipolar). My hail Mary move was
switching majors to 'Business Data Processing'. My thought being that
programming would give me a salable skill the quickest. We were doing JCL and
COBOL programming on the school mainframe using punch cards. The panic attacks
continued, and I dropped out of school in 1971. In 1975, I enlisted in the US
Air Force, and spent six years working in Signal Intelligence. I have been
part of the defense contractor corps (aka Beltway Bandits) since 1981, and
doing database development/admin continuously from 1988 to this day. I'm 69
now.

~~~
marstall
Thanks for sharing ... how did you manage the panic attacks in the end?

~~~
intpete
Thanks for asking!

The nature of the illness varies somewhat over time. The panic attacks only
seemed to happen when I was in a room with a large group of people. So
quitting school largely removed me from those situations.

I was diagnosed as Bipolar 2 in 1997 by a psychiatrist in Manhattan, where I
was living with my girlfriend. I started having true bipolar symptoms in USAF
Basic Training but made it through (talk about rough), then years later
working as a developer, I got to a point where I could just not deal with
people. One of the signature characteristics of bipolar (and other similar
disorders) is some form of paranoia. People at work would make some mild
critical comment and my head would be spinning for days full of anger and fear
and pondering what I should have said. The NY psychiatrist asked me just a few
questions: 'When was your first clinical depressive episode' (19), and 'are
you second-guessing yourself a lot' (Yes. A manifestation of paranoia as noted
above).

How did I ultimately deal with the disorder? Wonder drugs! Zyprexa since 1997,
Wellbutrin for many years, and lamotrigine, a mood stabilizer. Being bipolar
is not something that I notice much anymore.

One thing I would mention for anyone who is listening and suspects they are
bipolar: Bipolar people are vulnerable to trauma and PTSD. What helped me was
another miracle (IMO), EMDR. A single one hour EMDR session with a trained
therapist can rid you of trauma that would take a year or more of talk therapy
to accomplish.

Hope that was not too long-winded.

~~~
exikyut
EMDR =
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_a...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing)

Thanks for that particular datapoint, and for the info.

------
idolaspecus
My grandpa is ~75, started programming professionally in his early 20s, and
currently works as an engineer for the University of Utah, so my hunch is that
there’s more people with 50+ years of software engineering experience than you
might at first suspect.

Either that or I just doxxed myself ;)

~~~
Taniwha
Oh yeah, I started at 12, now I'm 62, still working happily, I think the trick
is to reinvent yourself every decade or so, find something completely
different to do, it's a big field

~~~
coldcode
I too am 62 and have been a working programmer for almost 39 years. I did run
two small startups early in my career, but was always a full time programmer
alongside the others. Today I am a lead iOS programmer working with a team of
4 (until recently 7) team members, I still write code everyday and my team has
a great rep for doing things faster than anyone expects, and still with the
highest quality results. I've switched gears a lot over my career, from
Fortran to Assembly to Pascal to C to C++ to Objective-C to Java back to C/C++
back to Objective-C and now the latest Swift. Done almost every kind of
programming including embedded systems, desktop apps, web apps, mobile apps,
dev tools and even worked at Apple helping other programmers back in the sad
days. Funny how things I learned early on still guide me today, even though
the tech has changed radically so many times.

------
ChrisMarshallNY
You have my respect sir (I assume, but women have been a significant force in
programming since the days of Yore).

I have been writing software since 1983, and Apple software since 1986. I
started as an EE (actually, technician, but became an EE in '84).

I was a manager for a large part of my career, which relegated my programming
to open-source projects (one of which has become a rather significant force,
in its own right).

I also worked for a Japanese corporation for almost 27 years. The Japanese
have a sort of "reverse-ageism" in their culture. Older folks are often
treated with a great deal of respect, and their judgment is considered
valuable. Many promotions have age (must be "at least"...) as a factor.
There's lots of issues with Japanese business culture, but it was the
environment where I learned a lot of my cultural cues.

So, it has been rather... _interesting_ to encounter the current...um...
_level of respect_...for experienced engineers in today's American tech
industry.

TBH, it was shocking. I knew that it was a factor, but I had no idea that it
was so prevalent. I was absolutely gobsmacked.

When I first encountered it, I just wanted to throw in the towel and run, but
I don't work that way. Instead, I doubled-down, and it has been quite
gratifying. I guess old dudes _can_ code, after all...

Again, you have my respect.

This guy is inspiring: [https://www.businessinsider.sg/oldest-nobel-prize-
winner-art...](https://www.businessinsider.sg/oldest-nobel-prize-winner-
arthur-ashkin-optical-tweezers-levitation-2019-1)

------
wwweston
Periodically there are questions here about dealing with burnout and learning
to cope with technological change/churn. Someone who's been doing it
enthusiastically for over half a century sounds like exactly the kind of
person who could offer advice on that. Do you have any?

~~~
genedangelo
The one thing that comes to mind is to avoid the "hammer looking for a nail"
syndrome. I see this all the time, especially in academia. Rather than worry
about learning all the latest stuff, concentrate on solving the problem at
hand in the simplest and most effective manner. If that requires you to learn
new things, then that's a great time to expand your repertoire - working on a
specific problem. Of course you have to strike a balance, but mainly
concentrate on solving problems rather than being up-to-date on all the latest
stuff and trying to find the proverbial nail for your new hammer.

~~~
shse
That’s one of the best software engineering advices I’ve ever heard. You
should write a book. Seriously.

------
rsynnott
Grace Hopper apparently retired from the navy when she was _80_. And then went
into consulting. So you’ve a few years to go yet.

~~~
JimmyAustin
According to Wikipedia, Grace Hopper started her computing career in 1944 when
she worked on the Harvard Mark 1, which would have put her at ~38 when she
began. Assuming she worked until her death, that puts her career in computing
at a (incredibly impressive) 47 years.

~~~
rsynnott
She was a mathematician before that, though; probably about as close as you
could get at the time :)

But yeah, always vaguely thought she was younger starting.

~~~
kibwen
Younger nothing, it's wild that I never stopped to consider that there was a
(recent!) period where our whole professional field had to be invented out of
thin air, scooping up willing academics as it went. Considering that ENIAC
(along with the Von Neumann architecture) wasn't even a thing until 1945, to
begin her career in 1944 is hardly late! :)

(Aside, I wonder if recruiters in 1944 were already asking for ten years of
ENIAC experience?)

~~~
jodrellblank
> our whole professional field had to be invented out of thin air

" _We shall need a great number of mathematicians of ability; there will
probably be a good deal of work of this kind to be done_ " \- Alan Turing,
1945.

You might find this talk by Bob Martin interesting -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecIWPzGEbFc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecIWPzGEbFc)
\- it's a history of programming that isn't the usual style, but instead about
this growth into existance, increasing numbers of programmers, where they came
from, and the effects that's had on the industry and on programming languages.

------
owenversteeg
I think you probably are, if you go by date you started working to the date
you stopped! Even Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie seem to have started their
first programming jobs a few years after you.

Welcome to HN! I hope you stick around, it can be a great place.

------
dpau
given the numerous posts about age discrimination on hn, i'm delighted to hear
your story and wish you many more years of happy programming. as a whipper-
snapper 40-something developer, it gives me hope and motivation.

~~~
combatentropy
The industry is backwards. Would you rather have a 25-year-old plumber,
architect, photographer, chef, or a 50-year-old one?

Artists get better with age. Programming is an art. All tedious tasks get
automated away. All that's left are design decisions. Making good design
decisions is what people mean by "taste". Taste gets better with experience.

A young person may have more physical energy, but to paraphrase Steve Jobs,
they don't have any taste. Their surplus physical energy could be a liability,
as they'll just write more code that's hard to maintain. Of course there are
exceptions. Don't discriminate by age in either direction. Ask for experience,
and make your final judgment after examining their portfolio (just as you
would an architect or photographer), looking for signs of good taste.

Further reading: "Taste for Makers", by Paul Graham,
[http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html)

~~~
pojzon
I think current gigs want younger people not for their performance but their
„price”. They work overtime without payment, are relatively cheap and you need
alot of them. For every architect you have in the company there are like 20-30
developers of lower grade. So the demand for „design making” people is just
not there.

~~~
jodrellblank
The industry has been very biased; from 1940 there weren't many programmers,
very quickly the number of programmers doubled, most had little experience.
Through the 1970s there weren't many programmers with more than 5 years
experience. As the number grew so fast, through the 1980s most programmers
still had less than 5 years experience. Same through the 1990s. Probably still
the same through the 2000s and 2010s and with how many people are learning to
code, probably still the same now, most programmers have <5 years experience.

That means most employers have only ever seen developers with <5 years
experience, working in teams of same, using languages and tools designed by
and for same. How could such employers properly value 30 or 50 years of
experience?

------
RogerFrye
I learned programming in Fall 1961 from Forman Acton at Princeton. Programmed
IBM 601 in Bell I, IBM 1620 in Fortran II. First job was summer 1962 at Bolt,
Beranek, and Newman programming the PDP-1 in assembly. Never stopped working
as a programmer. Main language now is Python. I am machine learning architect
at Sigma Labs Inc. I am 80 and I played NIM on a computer built to do
ballistics in 1947 at Maxon Corporation.

------
mikadel
In my company, we can get "Senior Developer" title after 3 to 4 year
experience.

What your current title?

~~~
onemoresoop
Real senior developers with lots of experience are usually shown the finger in
our industry. There’s no such title to reflect 57 years of experience; i’ve
heard it unofficially refered as baggage

~~~
CyberFonic
Sadly that is a very common situation. Thus even more fitting to celebrate
those who are still working, learning and enjoying their programming careers.

------
FearNotDaniel
Goals! As a mere 49-year-old who learned to code 38 years ago and only has 15
years' professional experience, it pisses me off to hear people whining about
ageism in tech; I'm sure certain sectors of the hotshot startup world are
biased towards "bright young things" but as far as I can tell there are many
orgs that have a place for grizzled greybeards and I certainly don't plan to
ever retire. What would I do? I'm still amazed every day that they pay me good
money for doing the thing that has been my hobby since age 11, and even if I
didn't need the money I'm sure it would continue to be one of my favourite
hobbies that I would do just for fun.

~~~
codethief
Could elaborate a bit on what got you into the IT industry at age 34 and what
you were doing before that? How easy/difficult was it for you to find a good,
well-paying job and build a career?

> I'm sure certain sectors of the hotshot startup world are biased towards
> "bright young things" but as far as I can tell there are many orgs that have
> a place for grizzled greybeards

What kind of organizations are you referring to? / How would one go about
finding organizations like these?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm in my late twenties and considering doing a
PhD in mathematical physics before leaving academia for good and entering the
IT industry. Like you, I started programming in my early teens and while I
kept coding as a hobby and also worked as a part-time software engineer for a
startup for ~1½ years, I obviously have much less professional experience
under my belt than those "bright young minds" who enter the industry in their
early twenties. So I'm somewhat afraid that it'll be even harder for me to
enter the industry when I'm in my early/mid thirties than it is right now.

------
karmakaze
It just occurred to me how interesting it will be for the new generation who
start so much younger and longer life expectancy what they'll see in their
long careers. Given how much has changed in your story, from Fortran to
AlphaZero and GPT-2. How much will change in theirs? Will the singularity
appear to be in sight? Will programmers disappear like telephone operators?

~~~
modwest
"longer life expectancy" is a very optimistic thing to say

~~~
JoshuaDavid
I don't know if it's particularly optimistic - if you're (accurately) saying
current life expectancy numbers don't take catastrophic risks into account,
neither did calculations of life expectancy back then. Unless you think there
is a higher risk of catastrophic events now than there was during the cold
war.

~~~
fortran77
Life expectancy has plateaued and may be trending down in the U.S. The culprit
is likely obesity. (See [https://time.com/5100737/obesity-lowering-life-
expectancy-un...](https://time.com/5100737/obesity-lowering-life-expectancy-
united-states/) )

------
RajuVarghese
Hats off to you, genedangelo! I retired last year after about 40 years of work
but I am still programming. I think that we as programmers are lucky to be in
a profession where our personal interest and professional work can coincide.
More importantly, we can carry our interest well into retired life. This is a
golden age for people like us: we can buy microcontrollers for peanuts or we
could have a supercomputer-like cluster in the cloud (for a brief period) for
a reasonable amount of money. And anything in between.

------
georgespencer
I was thrilled to see Walter Bright (@WalterBright) on here a few days ago! I
don't think he's been working for 57 years but he certainly has a few stories
to tell.

57 years is an amazing innings in such a relentless field - congratulations,
and long may you continue.

~~~
MauranKilom
I've seen him quite active, providing his thoughts on e.g. language designs
and relating them to his choices for D.

------
yuppiepuppie
Congrats! Just curious, as someone with so much experience, do you still have
to do coding challenges when interviewing for positions?

~~~
daly
Yes. Read up on data structures and their big-O costs.

Most of the "interviews" are conducted by very-recent college graduates who
know the algorithms and their big-O.

The fact that I taught Data Structures didn't seem to matter as none of them
actually read my resume (despite having a copy they brought with them).

It is more of a "hazing ritual" than a job interview.

------
1970-01-01
Serious question: How do you sit and type? What chair and what angle has
worked best for your back and neck all these years?

~~~
genedangelo
I sit in an office chair (tilted back slightly) with 3 large HD monitors about
3 feet from my eyes - I have special glasses for that range. The monitors can
be switched among 3 computers, and the wireless keyboard/mouse has a switch to
move from one computer to another. Most importantly, I have a dog that needs
walking several times a day, and that forces me to get up and walk a couple
miles every day.

~~~
mech422
I have the same 3 monitor, 'computer glasses' setup... Did your optometrist
give you grief about them?

The first time I said I wanted a pair of single focus lenses for the computer
(so I could use my whole field of view..), I got a lot of flak about "you
should get bifocals". I haven't needed to drive anywhere in the last couple of
years, so I basically never where my distance glasses anymore.

lately though.. Seems like they're getting more used to the idea. Maybe more
people doing it ?

~~~
codingdave
For myself, it was my optometrist's idea. I get one "free" pair a year from my
vision coverage, and when a year rolled in where my old prescription hadn't
changed much, he suggested getting computer glasses instead.

My only problem is forgetting to change glasses when I go out, and not really
noticing til I hit a main road and wonder why the street signs are blurry.

~~~
mech422
I'm so near sighted, I wouldn't make it out the door without my glasses :-)

Have you tried the 'blue blocker' type lenses? If so, how do you like them ?

~~~
vulcan01
Not the person you're replying to, but I've had the blue-blocker (I think
Costco calls them 'computer lenses' confusingly). They do shift colours
towards the yellow range, but not as much as the computer "night shift" (so
that the rest of the world looks normal) :) I've found that I can sit at my
computer for longer, compared to when I didn't have blue-blocking lenses. It's
probably just personal preference :)

I'm also very nearsighted :)

~~~
mech422
I've heard that blocking blue light can help you sleep better...And I'm
usually on the computer before bed. Have you noticed any difference w.r.t
sleep ? Thanks!

------
jacquesm
hello dear Gene,

Wow, I wasn't even _born_ in 1963 (1965 issue here), and I really got into
programming around 15 or so, so 40 years and counting on this end. Super
impressive that you still enjoy coding and do not plan to retire.

These days I only code for myself, I've stopped doing commercial work but will
occasionally help out in places where my particular combination of talents is
useful. I also don't plan on giving it up at all but you never know what the
future will bring and I'm very sure that my mental faculties are not at the
same level where they were 20 years ago, nor do I get as fired up about a cool
algorithm as I did back then.

Being born around that time and seeing all this development has been a ride
that I would not trade for anything else except for - retrospectively - a
career in music (which still is my first love) or - corny, but timely - being
an astronaut. But not to fly circles around the earth. So all things
considered I feel both lucky and privileged and I wonder if those are things
that you share or would care to talk about.

best regards & a very warm welcome to HN.

~~~
mianos
I am a little older and maybe a little more than 40 years experience. I still
love it and program at home and work. I still get excited about new stuff or
learning a new platform (I am setting up Hashicorp Vault at the moment,
awesomely interesting). My first love was electronics, which I still do at
home, so maybe my experience is a little different. The last few years I have
been learning abstract algebra and some nuclear physics. At this stage I can't
imagine ever stopping.

------
mark_l_watson
I think you may be. I got to try programming a Basic timesharing system in
1963 when I was a kid, in 1972 I had a summer job doing FORTRAN, and then
started a full time programming job after getting a BS in Physics from UCSB in
1973.

So you have ten more years working than I do.

------
daly
I'm at 50 years (so far).

~~~
djmips
Super!

------
gregjor
Thank you for making me feel young in this crowd! Started in 1974, still at
it.

------
mch82
Probably close. The first software program ran 21 June 1948
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-
program_computer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-program_computer)) and
not many people who start working at 16 keep programming until 74.

~~~
lmm
Maurice Wilkes programmed from 1949 (if we're counting from when the program
ran on a stored-program computer) until his death in 2010, so OP has at least
4 years to go to make the record.

------
neilwilson
At 38 years and a graduate of the ZX81 school of programming I am but a mere
whippersnapper.

But I look forward to the day when I have accumulated sufficient experience to
truly understand Lisp.

May the code by with you. Always.

~~~
FearNotDaniel
For a moment there I thought you meant you were 38 years old, meaning you
would have been tapping on that membrane keyboard in your nappies :-) But
yeah, happy days. My school had a couple of ZX81s and an Apple ][ which got me
started until the BBC Micro came out and we got a ZX Spectrum at home.

------
charlescearl
Just a note that Georgia Tech [http://www.gradadmiss.gatech.edu/62-or-
older](http://www.gradadmiss.gatech.edu/62-or-older) allows those over 62 to
take graduate and undergraduate classes tuition free.

~~~
randcraw
This applies only if you reside in Georgia.

------
ransom1538
Fist bump.

Congrats on an awesome career. You are an inspiration. Slice up fulfillment
data in Fortran II before rules and drama -- legit. What are the younger
programmers doing wrong? (I don't think we are much quicker - at anything).
Also #1 on hacker news.

------
phillipseamore
I'm happy to see that you've kept up with new fields and changes in the
industry. I've worked with several older programmers and they've usually been
very set in their ways and shown little interest in developing new skills.

~~~
genedangelo
I know what you mean. Many of my contemporaries never got past the mainframes.
I'll have to admit that it took me a little while to accept the PC to be more
than any intelligent terminal. I was lucky in that I worked for Digital
Equipment Corporation from 1976 to 1982 - they pioneered distributed
computing.

~~~
rossjudson
And then over at Google it's mostly VIM and browsers, deploying on machines
hardly anyone ever sees. I'm pretty sure they exist, but I have no hard
evidence of that.

The PCs really aren't much more than intelligent terminals. You were right,
and you should have held your ground and been eventually correct.

------
ghotli
Thanks for posting. Just laying the feels wide open here. It's an inspiration
to know you're still at it and I sure hope to be at it too. Lots of worthwhile
problems to still solve.

------
GnarfGnarf
You got me beat by two years. I wrote my first FORTRAN program in July 1965. I
also wrote code at 12,000 ft altitude. I'm still writing code.

Here's my bio:

[http://www.kyber.ca/rants/UNIVAC%20history.php](http://www.kyber.ca/rants/UNIVAC%20history.php)

------
baggy_trough
My mother is still coding Fortran at 76. I think she may have started a couple
of years after you though. Fortran forever!

------
oh_sigh
Could you talk more about what you remember from your time at Mitchell
Engineering Company? You worked on order processing and fulfillment...what was
lacking in their process that they wanted to computerize? Was your project
deemed a business success? Were you happy while you were working on it? Was it
just you or a team?

~~~
genedangelo
Just briefly, then I have to hit the sack - I'm on the east coast. I developed
a set of programs to allow them to map out the design of a steel building, and
my programs would calculate all the pieces they need to load on the truck to
build it. Mitchell was very progressive in this area - this type of
computerization enabled them to have the building up in record time. A Civil
Engineer worked with me and used the computer to design the main support
beams. Between the two of us the entire process was automated.

------
softwaredoug
For me I’ve learned programming is one of the purest feelings of joy I
experience. Even regardless of the language or environment. It’s so thrilling
to get to take something apart and put it back together to solve a problem. I
feel so lucky to have such work. Congrats. I hope I can make it to 74 writing
code!

------
HaloZero
Congratulations! I hope it's okay this has turned into an AMA :D. Feel free to
not answer!

What do you think the biggest shift for day to day programming was for you in
your 57 years?

------
jmartrican
Amazing career. You inspire me. Not only because you have continued this long,
but because you have progressed your education and skills. You have veered
toward ultra cool programming with machine learning. While I only work on CRUD
webservices... which there is a big need for, but lacks the coolness of
machine learning.

When considering going back to school or focussing efforts on writing software
for employers/clients, I always side on writing software. But with your story
I will give more weight to going back to school, as it might lead to new
avenues.

I'm in my 40's and really enjoy these stories from older programmers to help
me stay motivated. I like to believe that my best days are always ahead of me,
and your story helps me affirm that.

------
chrisweekly
First, thank you for sharing and welcome to HN! :)

Second, I want to take a moment to commemorate and celebrate my father, who
enrolled at MIT in 1967, graduated w a Master's in CSEE, spent 25 years
working at GenRad and continued working as a software engineer (at MathWorks)
until the week before he passed away in early 2018. So he was a programmer for
over 50 years. While I'm unlikely to reach that milestone (having started
"late", a couple years after graduating college in 1996), my younger brother
wrote his first program at age 5 and is still at it today (36 years and
counting).

No particular point to make here, just reflecting on our chosen field and
feeling very, very fortunate to be part of this community. Be well! :)

------
JoeAltmaier
Very impressive and significant! My experience began on the Altair 8800 as a
kid in my brothers' bedroom. Continued on personal computers to the present
day. So maybe the longest (possible) PC experience, but I'm sure it's shared
by many.

------
fortran77
I thought I was an old timer, with my Fortran 77 experience. But Fortran II!
If it followed the naming convention, that was from 1902, right?

Welcome to Hacker News. They don't always treat us graybeards well so you'll
need to be tough.

------
fancythat
Inventor of Forth, Chuck Moore still codes. He is 81. He funded his last
startup at tender age of 70 (Green Arrays).

------
elviejo
How did you avoid going into "management" ?? Have you ever been "promoted" to
project manager?

~~~
daly
I was "offered" a management job 8 times. I turned them down (despite some of
them involving a raise).

Why would I go from the top of my skill set (programming) to the bottom of a
job I'm unable to perform?

I can barely manage myself some days. And I am not a "people person".

------
bazza451
This made my day, absolutely wonderful achievement! Especially the area that
you’re now in...it’s really not an easy task to retrain yourself for ML.

I’m 12 years in professionally and still loving every second of it! Currently
been slugging out Leetcode problems all hours of the day to try and get myself
to an org with a proper engineering track. So maybe further down the line I
still might be able to solve computer problems (in some way or form) during my
day.

I really hope to someday to be able to come onto HN and do the same thing as
you :)

~~~
mindentropy
Funny. I too with 14 years also with a lot of love for programming want to
have a career like him. Like you I too am leetcoding so that I can get into a
proper engineering company where I will not be discriminated based on age.

Hope we both will do the same as what the OP did.

~~~
bazza451
Best of luck to you when you do the interviews! Everything just takes time and
practice :)

------
machinesbuddy
Is there any way we can meet you sir? At a conference or meetup etc. You're an
inspiration and that should be an honor for someone like me. I'm 35 and 17
years of coding and enjoying every moment of that. Though I sometimes think
it's been a long time, I'm getting old, etc. but compared to you, I'm a kid
and have a long way to go.

My answer to people who ask me "For how long do you think you can code, you
need to become a manager or whatever" has always been "Until I die".

------
RogerFrye
In September 1961, I learned programming from Forman Acton at Princeton.
Programmed IBM 601 in Bell I, IBM 1620 and IBM 709 in Fortran II, Algol,
COBOL, assembly. First job was July 1962 at Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
programming DEC PDP-1 in assembly. Never stopped working as a programmer.
Currently programming Linux computers mostly in Python. I am machine learning
architect for Sigma Labs, Inc. I am 80. I played NIM in 1947 on the front
panel of a ballistics computer at Maxon Corporation.

------
eru
My grandfather was born in 1945 and worked as a programmer in East Germany and
then unified Germany. He retired a few years ago.

He started as a mathematicatian, and probably worked with computers
professionally only after 1963.

Programming in East Germany was .. interesting. For example, they used punch
cards long after they were out of date in the west. My grandfather still has
lots of punch card origami he did while waiting for his batch jobs to finish.

------
moritzmoritz21
That sounds so great! You were working in an area where computers had black-
green terminals, you saw when people were afraid what will happen if the date
changes to 2000 :scream:, you saw the Sony Ericsson handy area, smartphones,
tables, wearables and now ML! Exciting man and I want to be able to write here
in ~40 years.

Congrats to all what you have achieved! :clap:

------
mindentropy
This is really great! Keep doing what you are doing, Sir.

I once had the pleasure of interviewing a German consultant who was into
Android programming and he was like 48 or 50 years old. The interview was like
listening to stories of his programming days with various hardware(Commodore
etc) and it was fascinating that too with his precise German English accent.

------
tepkool01
I’m curious as to when you knew/decided it was time to fully immerse yourself
into a new frame of programmatic thinking. Switching languages is sometimes
simple, if the syntax is similar, but what about a low level to a medium level
language? IE assembly to java or something. Or perhaps what invited the change
to study the operations component versus the analytical component?

A lot of people have comfort in their current programming language, and talk
down about other languages.. resistant to change. And sometimes they are right
because things are evolving too quickly that they could be a fad or become a
standard and popular.

Again, curious as to when/how you felt it was a good time to learn something
new. And this is specifically geared towards your later years.

I’m in my early 30s. And with technology changing so much, I’m curious if I’ll
still be in touch with it all in 30+ years. And how you seemed to accomplish
it.

Thanks and I hope I can hear from you!

------
clewis2606
Awesome! I have no plans to retire. I turn 50 in a few weeks and just returned
back to the technology field after leaving it for 14 years.

Eventually I plan on getting another masters or a PhD in data science,
statistics or some other computer science field.

If I could I'd buy you a cup of coffee and pick your brain. If you went to FAU
then we are relatively close.

------
jotafi
I am 47, I started with basic a TI99 4/A, I loved computers but I stopped at
school when I was 15. At 30 I went back to evening classes and in 10 years I
finished high-school and an IT degree while working full-time. I managed to
get a job in Italy (I am Italian) but it was frustrating there that I
emigrated to England. I have been hating my life and job since the
superficiality and ignorance of people, all these horrible corporations using
Java or .NET. On March I finished a contract and I cannot find another one,
because of the changes in the IR35 law that the pathetic UK government made
and the virus after. I was working only for the money, now everything is gone.

I am 47, too coward to kill myself, too terrified to take more shit.

------
beamatronic
I think it's awesome that you have had a long career and still going. I know
of one gentleman in a similar situation. I think he may be in his late 70's or
even early 80's. He's currently working on porting some Fortran or Cobol code
he wrote in his 20's from his first job ever!

------
jodrellblank
Bob Smith who codes the NARS2000 APL interpreter was programming from at least
1969:

[http://www.nars2000.org](http://www.nars2000.org)

[http://www.sudleyplace.com/APL/projects.html](http://www.sudleyplace.com/APL/projects.html)

------
specialist
An interview with you would be fantastic.

Do any of the computer museums do that?

My mom used to interview people, mostly seniors, to capture oral traditions,
get first hand accounts. I think the process she used was called "oral
history". A simple format that any one could use to do their own interviews.
She was long time volunteer for our local Swede-Finn historical org. She
figured out how to do this once her parent's friends started passing away.

A friend played fiddle and was really into Americana. Most of the musicians
were 70+. When they passed, all their lore and many of their songs were lost.
So she started recording her friends and capturing their bios, life stories,
stories about the music. She self-published a book and cassette combo. Two
volumes, IIRC.

Just two examples of what I'm suggesting.

~~~
mikewang
That sounds great. People just is like the cassette/volumes, recording
history, which is more vivid.

------
HarHarVeryFunny
You've got me beat. I learned to program in the late 70's taking adult evening
classes at local university (PL/1 punched card batch system), got my first
home computer in 1979(NASCOM-1 Z80 1MHz kit - DIY solder assembly), took
Math/CS in university, then started programming professionally in 1982, and
still going strong.

My first job was at Acorn Computers Ltd (UK), writing Acorn ISO Pascal in 6502
assembler, and fast forward almost 40 years currently working for major
Telecom writing C++ frameworks/libraries for Linux. Still enjoy it as a hobby
too, currently writing my third C++ neural network framework (full blown, GPU
accelerated, etc), with lifetime goal of eventually building autonomous robot
with animal/human level AI.

------
binodkalathil
I have been a coder for 9+ years now but im seeing variations in my X-Rays of
my neck due to long hours of sitting, i guess.

Do you face any such health issues related to the profession? Or do you
do/practice anything that can avoid such health conditions related to the
profession?

------
nsfyn55
My experiences with programmers that have more than 30 years on the job fall
into 1 of 2 categories...

1\. Constant complaining about the state of things(too much memory, too
complicated, back in my day, blah, blah, blah). Why do I have to learn git?,
containers?, on, and on, and on. VMs are just fine, what's wrong with java
1.4?, ... exhausting . These programmers probably sucked when they had 5 years
of experience and continue to suck today. Crossed arms, learned helplessness
level 99.

2\. Crazy life long learners that have ridden one technology wave after
another for decades on end. When something new comes out they are on it like
flies on picnic food.

It's my greatest, most sincere hope that I have the energy, temperament to
become the latter.

------
danso
Thanks for sharing!

> _Since then, all my jobs for the past 57 years have involved computer
> programming_

As others have pointed out, there are definitely older, working programmers
like Margaret Hamilton [0], but who may not have programming as the main part
of their job. Would you say programming is the main part of your day as a data
scientist (I have no idea, as I've thought DS could encompass a variety of
non-programming work)?

A common question that comes up with mid-career programmers is whether they
should take the jump into management – how have you dealt with that crossroads
throughout your career?

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23367138](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23367138)

------
dmag
Small shout out for Sir Maurice Wilkes, who was involved in some of the
earliest stored program concept computers back in the late 40s (designed and
built EDSAC in 48/49, and the inventor of microprogramming in the early 50s.
Worked in the Computer Lab in Cambridge for years, spent some time in the US,
and returned to the lab in the early 2000's. Was still a feature in the labs
until not long before his death in 2010, at the grand old age of 97. Would
have been around the 60 odd year mark at that stage. I can't speak to how much
he was working at that stage, but still a very impressive career and a very
impressive individual.

------
WrtCdEvrydy
I'm 28 and I wanna be like you. You don't know how inspiring you are, buddy :)

------
necovek
Thanks for sharing!

I am exactly half your age and have been programming seriously for only for 25
years (if we consider talking over serial/COM ports at 1200 bauds or passing
printer escape sequences from a DOS ncurses-like software written in BASIC
serious :), and I can't imagine not programming in the future. Programming is
the art of creating solutions for me, and I am sure you can relate!

However, I do hope to retire early, to allow me to work down the long bucket
list of ideas I have.

As with anyone in programming for so long, I am sure you have a similar bucket
list :)

Thus, my question is: what has kept you at your jobs?

------
jasoneckert
Congrats! I love reading inspiring posts on HN!

There are probably many of us who will probably follow in your footsteps.
Provided that Stack Overflow continues to exist, I have no plans to ever stop
programming either.

------
koolba
Do you still type source code?

How do you rate your mental agility versus your younger self?

~~~
genedangelo
So far I really haven't sensed any mental decrease, but I know there must be
some. I do type some source code in Python and R, but primarily I use a rapid
applications development tool that allows me to build custom machine learning
algorithms and ad hoc analytics to work on big data.

~~~
dleslie
Do you consider what you do to be programming? How does it compare to, say,
hand-writing C?

~~~
genedangelo
There is no doubt what I do is programming. It's similar in some ways to SQL,
but the tool I use enables me to implement much more complexity than possible
in plain SQL. It actually enables a lot of the functionality available in a
procedural language like C, but within a structure built around database
manipulations and joins. In this way it breaks the bounds of memory
constraints and becomes a big data programming language. Admittedly, I don't
have to type out individual commands, but that's a good thing. The logic is
the same, but the development time is much less. It enables you to concentrate
more on the algorithm design while the command syntax and other minutiae are
handled in a much more efficient (and maintainable) manner.

~~~
dleslie
That's quite interesting! Thanks for responding. :)

You don't type; is the way you create this logic similar to Ladder Logic, Pure
Data or Touch Designer?

------
mrich
Thanks for posting, it's good to see long-time developers that did not move to
management :)

How many jobs have you held, and what was your criteria when switching jobs
(apart from any possible family reasons)?

Looking back, is there any favorite technology of yours (language, concept,
anything)

Do you feel the industry is buzzword-driven to a significant extent? (e.g.
things get rebranded, reinvented, reimplemented on latest tech instead of
fixing and improving existing things, business value does not get better but
software often gets more resource-hungry)

------
vishnugupta
Thank you for this. As a 40yo with 15 years into this profession, I have been
having recurring feeling like “being at the crossroads”. This is exactly what
I needed to get inspired. Respect.

------
NiceWayToDoIT
@genedangelo As a programmer, do you feel pressure with time passage? Have you
felt any problem with memory or speed of thinking, have you ever thought about
how it was in certain stages of your life from the perspective of abilities to
do things?

No disrespect, after only 20 years (third of your time) sometimes I feel that
it was much easier to solve things in the beginning, so sometimes I am kind of
worried what will happen if I ever live to that age. Generally I am interested
how does cognitive ability changes with age.

------
naedish
I'm not sure if he is still programming now (he was a few years ago at least)
but Jeff Whittle started programming in 1962 on a Ferranti Sirius[0]. He was
awarded an AO (Order of Australia) for his services to the Mining Industry a
few years ago due to his mining optimisation software.

[0][https://whittleconsulting.com.au/livebook/downloads/3.5-Stor...](https://whittleconsulting.com.au/livebook/downloads/3.5-Story.pdf)

------
sergiotapia
This is quite inspiring to read. What languages do you work with these days?
What do you miss about the "old way" of programming? You have such a unique
perspective.

------
AnimalMuppet
No, probably not the longest-serving, though maybe longest-serving who is on
HN.

Also: 74 - 57 = 17 years of age when you started as a full time programmer.
How did you pull that off in 1963?

~~~
genedangelo
I actually was only 16, but turned 17 right after I started. I had finished
all the math and science courses in my high school in Mississippi and I had a
lot of extra time in my senior year. As a junior, I scored the highest in the
U.S. on an engineering aptitude test and got a write-up in the local paper.
Mitchell Engineering was trying to get into computers but didn't know how to
find people who could program. When they heard about me, they approached me
with the idea of becoming a programmer. At the time, I had no idea what a
programmer was, but they hired me and trained me on the job.

~~~
gedy
Wonderful to hear that, and congratulations to you for that accomplishment. I
worry those type of opportunities are no more, or at least much rarer.

~~~
quickthrower2
I always wonder what the next thing like programming is that isn’t mainstream
yet. Maybe there is an opportunity in that. Quantum computing? But then they’d
hire phds I guess.

~~~
jfitzsimons
As someone who runs a quantum computing software company, I can confirm your
intuition. Almost everyone we hire to work on quantum computing directly has a
PhD.

------
somedev9
What a great post. It’s inspiring to know it’s possible to stay in this
industry so long. Having read many stories of programmers having to retire
early or switch into management or different careers, it’s wonderful to hear
from someone who has kept going. Have you had any physical health challenges
along the way such as RSI/arthritis? Im asking because I’m only in my mid 30s
and already having difficulty with arthritis in my fingers.

------
Tepix
I have a question, did your wage stop going up at some point?

------
BracketMaster
Where do you work now? And also, I've heard that at Google for example, there
is prejudice against older programmers? Have you experienced anything like
that?

~~~
gregjor
I think the age discrimination comes from the mostly younger staff, not so
much the company. Works out the same, of course, when you’re told you aren’t a
“good cultural fit.”

~~~
boomlinde
A company is its staff

~~~
gregjor
Yes, but company policy and interview decisions don't necessarily match.

~~~
boomlinde
That quickly turned metaphysical. If company policy is neither enforced nor
followed, is it really company policy? If so, "company policy" is just an
abstract term that doesn't necessarily reflect the company in any way.

It really boils down to what I've already said. A company is its staff. What
its staff does and accepts other staff doing is ultimately its policy.
Anything else that they might have written down into a document that isn't
enforced or followed is _not_ company policy, but a way to compartmentalize
responsibility and blame once its actual policies come under scrutiny

~~~
gregjor
I didn't mean to get metaphysical. In my experience interviewing for software
dev jobs, the interviews are usually conducted by the IT/software dev staff
and the hiring manager, not the entire company staff. HR may or may not get
involved, but usually they aren't making a hiring decision. The company may
gladly hire a 50-something manager, or accountant, but the group of developers
interviewing someone my age will have a bias against an older programmer,
regardless of policy or whom they might agree to hire in some other role.

The company (and the law) have rules about discrimination and fairness, but
when a group of 20-somethings interviews an older programmer those rules may
not matter. Fixing age discrimination probably shouldn't focus on laws and
company policies, no company has a policy condoning age discrimination that we
need to fix. It's the software dev culture that equates age and experience
with "not a good fit," for whatever reason. I have my own theories what those
reasons amount to but regardless of why I think it happens, it clearly does.

------
georgegrimes
I only managed 40 years programming before I "got retired" by the company I
worked for. I was past my full Social Security entitlement age so I could have
voluntarily retired but I wasn't ready. They felt they could hire a couple of
younger people for what they were paying me. That was true, but they lost a
lot of experience that will cost them more dollars than their salaries!

------
giancarlostoro
That is wonderful! Hey I'm from Florida too! (I assume you've at least been
there since you mentioned FAU) :) You are doing what I hope to: code even if I
'retire' I intend to code till the day I can't anymore.

Welcome to HN! It's a great place, has a few things I don't like here or
there, but overall a great place to learn all sorts of things and learn about
all sorts of people from varying backgrounds.

------
njacobs5074
Whether you are or not, I congratulate you on your achievement. And the fact
that you’re posting it on HN definitely counts for extra!

Well done!

------
lemanire
I just retired at 78 after 55 years as a programmer, database and GIS
specialist. Now I'm using those skills pro bono to help farmers adopt wireless
sensors and take advantage of the latest IOT developments with
Arduino/Raspberry Pi type technology. Started on punch cards, TTY 33 paper
tape and mag tapes on a CDC 6400.

------
observr9
For those in the same boat, any tips you can provide to overcome the commonly
cited barriers?

For example: maintaining the required mental agility needed to do the job,
learning new technologies that come and go, overcoming relevant biases,
staying relevant as "less experienced" workers seem sufficient to do the same
job, etc.

------
thesz
I had a pleasure working with Andrey Michailovich Smirnov when I was around 36
in 2007. He was 75 at the time and was definitely run circles around me. For
example, he was able to produce working compiler for subset of Fortran with
compilation into dynamic dataflow machine in two-three weeks.

I don't think he was retired.

~~~
jansan
But was he able to center a div within another div without looking it up on
Stackoverflow?

------
coder4life
You've given this 51 year old coder (31 years in the coding seat) new hope! I
did 21 years of those in start-ups, so it's been kind of harrowing. Hoping
this year to go full time remote. Started with RPG-III/System38s, now doing
nodeJS/nextJS/react. Adapt or die :)

------
lijjumathew
Congratulations!!. What made you stick to Programming and not go the path of
leadership? Are you on linkedin ?

------
asouno
Shorewall author is about your age
[https://sourceforge.net/p/shorewall/mailman/message/36589783...](https://sourceforge.net/p/shorewall/mailman/message/36589783/)

------
jonjacky
Peter Neumann's first programming job was in 1953. He is still active in CS
research, and is co-author of a 2019 paper.

[http://www.csl.sri.com/users/neumann/#2](http://www.csl.sri.com/users/neumann/#2)

------
kabdib
My father-in-law retired from a software engineering position at age 75. I'd
be 57 years in the industry if I retired then. It seems doable; I know a
couple of software types approaching or over 70 now.

This would be convenient because the 32-bit signed time_t apocalypse is in
early 2037. :-)

------
elwell
I wonder if ageism will lessen as there are so many programmers now getting
older. I suppose it's mostly in the hands of the hiring manager. I don't
know... it's just a thought; would be curious to hear others' opinions.

------
hermitcrab
I started programming as a child in around 1979 and have been programming
professionally since 1987. So you have me beat by quite a margin.
Congratulations! I can't imagine stopping programming as long as I am still
capable of doing it.

------
exclusiv
> I am now a data scientist developing cloud-based big data fraud detection
> algorithms using machine learning and other advanced analytical
> technologies.

Put that in a pitch deck and raise whatever you want!

J/K! Congratulations on the career, success and evolution!

------
mnault000
Hey man!.. I'm 53, and I design 3D synthetic worlds with physic simulators in
python and C++ for the aeronautic industry. That's on top of still running
strong webdev with the latest tech. So yeah, what's your worry?

------
elwell
Question: How has your enjoyment of programming ebbed and flowed over the
years?

------
lowwave
That is great to see someone who has being doing this for so long. True
respect for someone like this instead of someone who is just jumping the band
wagon because tv show like Mr. Robot, the React FB, side effect.

------
droptablemain
OP is an OG

------
bg24
Respect for how you achieved continuous learning along the way

1/ Did you ever feel isolated in a group because of age? 2/ How did you manage
to stay focused when your colleagues may just be growing up the ladder?

------
noefingway
Keep at it! I'm 68, started programming when I was 17 on a PDP-8 with
Dartmouth Basic, paper tape and a teletype. Moved on from there to mainframes,
minis, workstations. Still working and learning.

------
flashgordon
Mate first of all my huge huge respect to you for keeping at it. This is true
passion and I really really wish that see more of it. I hope you are doing
what you enjoy for another 50 years at least!!!

------
johndavid9991
Respect! I plan to do the same when I get old. You are an inspiration Sir.

------
scottporad
Congratulations! You're an inspiration!

Tell us, what is the secret to your longevity?

~~~
genedangelo
I guess not smoking, no drugs and regular exercise. I really enjoy what I do -
the challenge of achieving an analytical objective with limited resources has
always given me great satisfaction.

~~~
karmakaze
How much exercise, and have you always been physically active?

[I'm more than halfway to your experience but definitely missing this aspect.]

~~~
genedangelo
About 1 hour in the gym 4 times a week with a mixture of anaerobic and aerobic
always setting goals and constraints on my heart rate (using a Polar monitor).
At least that is what I was doing until about 2 years ago, when my personal
life changed for a number of reasons. Now, I mainly concentrate on walking 3
or 4 miles a day.

~~~
karmakaze
Thanks, that seems like a sustainably attainable goal (and to adapt and not
overdo it).

------
fernly
I started writing systems software (at IBM, in 360 assembler language) in
1967, but I didn't have your stamina, or single-mindedness: I retired in 1997.
But I still write code for fun.

------
mech422
Dam - I thought my 40 years was pushing ... Thanks for the inspiration!

~~~
MentallyRetired
Right? I'm at 22 years professionally and I feel like a dinosaur out here.

~~~
onemoresoop
Same. I recently got into scheme/lisp and got a newfound inspiration. Seems
like older folks were on a better path which got as time passed by more and
more corrupted.

~~~
mech422
I really have to really give lisp a chance sometime. Right now, next on my
language list are zig and nim. Crystal could be interesting too!

------
msoad
In an interview Bill Gates said he likes TypeScript. It was about a year ago.
Sure he’s not a full time programmer but something tells me the itch will
always be there for us the curious! :)

~~~
folkhack
I am so reluctant to accept Microsoft in ECMA, and I have no idea why but I'm
even more reluctant to after hearing this.

I mean - sure. I love Gates and all. But things like the Win32 API make me so
weary to _ever_ trust his opinion as a SWE. His technical "blessing" on
anything doesn't mean much IMO.

------
pkrotich
What’s your daily routine now and how has it evolved over the years?

~~~
genedangelo
For most of the past 25 years I have been working from home - which is a
problem because you never leave your work. The main thing that has changed
over recent years is that I now take a 1-hour nap around 2 or 3 PM every day,
except when I have conference calls that prevent it. After the nap, I feel
rejuvenated and productive. I'm sure this is partly related to old age, but
I'm also dyslexic and I think my brain needs a rest from struggling with
written communications.

------
ausjke
A professor at college can work late into his/her 70s or 80s.

so should be software engineers.

This is truly inspirational, I also plan to keep coding well into 70s/80s,
just loving it, or as long as I can.

------
markbnj
Well you've got me beat anyway :). My hat's off to you. I started as a hobby
in 1975 on an HP3000 mainframe, aged 15, and landed my first professional gig
in 1987.

------
wowxp
I wonder if you got any health issues related to your profession? What do you
do to keep yourself in shape physically and mentally? Congratulations on your
success.

------
vidanay
If I can include non-professional, then I have been programming since 5th
grade in 1981. Started out on Apple][ and TI-99/4A at school and home
respectively.

------
aliakhtar
That's a lot of typing, over 57 years. How did you avoid RSI, carpal tunnel,
and other injuries / health problems related to programming for this long?

------
BracketMaster
This is pretty cool. Definitely worth documenting I think.

~~~
genedangelo
One reason I posted this is because I may attempt to gain recognition in the
Guinness World Records. I know my career is longer than the person they now
have listed as the "Longest career as a computer software developer" \-
Kaneyuki Yamaguchi in Japan

~~~
BracketMaster
Ooh - definitely should go through with that. Also, I'm doing a pilot show
interviewing some Tech moguls local to Atlanta. There's a diverse group I'm
interviewing from wealthy entrepreneurs to notable employees of bell labs, to
people who hold an insane amount of patents. I think you could definitely fit
in there somewhere.

------
perlpimp
ho, man I feel real lonely not finding any people who are like to screw around
and code for pleasure. so many smart polished developers that would do
something else if enviroment was different, but kills my heart. I would love
to code forever, but I am not as tenacious as those are superprofessional I
rather would like to enjoy and freeride the waves of code, And I find
conversing within community dispiriting.

Am I alone?

------
stephen82
Can we have a blog with your programming / life adventures?

Also, it would be wise to name it "genedangelo in byteland" haha! ^_^

------
artsyca
Sir, when you were first starting out what was the standard dress for coders
and how have you seen it evolve over the years?

~~~
genedangelo
When I started out, business casual was the norm, just as it is today. A big
difference was that many of us had "pocket protectors" where we carried our
pens, pencils and slide rule. You may have seen those in some movies as a
distinguishing feature for nerds.

------
pelasaco
you remember my Father. Worked for IBM in the end of 60s, worked as COBOL
developer, then went the whole process until become Territory manager from IBM
and after retirement, got a second master in Quality assurance testing, and
now in the age of 75 got, this week, his Scrum master certification and spend
his day busy with python :)

------
bitcoinmoney
Curious what is your salary? Can you share?

~~~
onemoresoop
Who cares about the money when one has an ounce of passion for it

~~~
ChuckNorris89
Because you need money to eat and pay rent and most importantly provide for
your family or offspring if you have any.

~~~
onemoresoop
Yeah, I didn’t mean working for free, but working on a less glamorous salary
with all the other human perks is sometimes just fine, especially if one’s
done raising kids and does work to fulfil the calling

------
Aeolun
It’s interesting you can be a little bit more than twice my age, but have 6
times as much professional experience.

------
flobosg
Even if not the longest-serving, you're definitely quite high on the list.
Thanks for sharing your story!

------
roborobert
My grandmother started working on adding machines at IBM right after college
in 1939. She retired in the 1980s programming in Cobol for Nielsen Media
Research. Her daughter, my mother, was also a programmer and married another.
My father is still programming at 74, though I think he was 73 at his last
paying job (doing audio classification with RNNs). All of their tenures are a
few years shy of yours, but in aggregate it's competitive.

TL;DR everyone ancestor of mine born since 1916 has been a computer
programmer.

------
zwilliamson
If you ever start a blog, I would love to read the stories and experiences you
are willing to share.

------
purplezooey
Nobody said it yet, but you sir, are a badass. I think many of us hope we will
be like you.

------
mraza007
That’s very nice to hear My question is how do you keep your technical
knowledge upto date

------
john4532452
Phew. I am about 30 and i fear age discrimination. Love to hear more of these
stories.

------
infradig
Started in 1978. No longer program professionally (much) but still do it for
fun.

------
nkbrd
Curious, why would people throw those fancy abbreviations at you all the time.

------
didip
How many programming languages and frameworks have you learned in total?

------
RickJWagner
Congratulations on the longevity. Here's to the next 57 years!

------
asplake
Kinda related: I’m a second generation programmer and my son a third

------
rronalddas
Can you do a reddit AMA?? I think many people would be interested

------
aww_dang
I salute you and all of the others who are still going strong.

------
pegas1
you beat me by 3 years

------
giorgioz
Please someone make a movie about Highlander programmers!

------
fnord77
this thread makes me feel a bit better about getting old.

------
ddgflorida
My wife and I BOTH have been programming over 40 years.

------
lmilcin
Would be interesting to hear some of the stories.

------
blockchainman
This post is undoubtedly inspiring ! Thank you.

------
asimjalis
What kind of programming do you do these days?

------
ChaitanyaSai
Someone should get this gentleman on a podcast

------
vincentlee
!!please get in to anti-cheat engineering for multi-player networked games.
the battle between game developers and funded cheat orgs is cold war-esque

~~~
sparkie
I used to be on the side of cheaters, but mostly for fun. Was never funded but
could have made profit from it. I know several people who went in that
direction and made good money. As teenagers with no qualifications, getting a
blue collar job wasn't really an option.

Attempts at protecting a game client from reverse engineering are mostly a
waste of time. These protections can be beaten faster than they can be
developed. Once a hacker has reverse engineered your wire protocol and
cryptography your game client is just one of potentially several.

Has probably changed a lot over the past decade or so, but the developers at
the time were wasting their efforts on tightening their software clients
rather than using AI, honeypots and other techniques on the server to detect
and ban bots. I recall offering to work for a couple of the companies whose
games I had developed cheats for, but they rejected me right away without even
an interview.

One of the issues is: MMOs are often very repetitive. The actions of your real
users are somwhat bot-like to begin with. This means bot developing isn't that
difficult. Adding randomness to the behaviour of the bot can make it look like
a regular player. I suspect there are some differences which some well trained
neural networks might be able to classify, but you need to be really careful
of false positives because anything which gets in the way of regular players
enjoying the game will lose you customers.

~~~
jv22222
Interesting. For the cheaters, how does the business side of it work?

~~~
sparkie
The revenue is mostly from selling in-game money and rare items which are
farmed by bots. There are many trading websites you can use, just search "buy
WoW gold" for instance. (I just looked and this market looks incredibly
saturated compared 15 years ago).

Selling the bots themselves was an option, but people can just reverse
engineer your bot and redistribute it. The bot typically ends up posted on
some public forum and becomes a target for the developers to patch against.
Also, the more people who are running the bots in game, the less profit you
are going to have from selling your items because they're more abundant, so it
is better to keep it confidential and just have many accounts farming.

Before the bots were commonplace, there were Chinese "sweatshops" where people
were paid scraps to play the games for 20+ hours a day in horrific working
conditions. Would hear stories like "man dies from playing MMORPG for 36 hours
straight".

------
CodeWriter23
You have me beat by 20 years, sir.

------
Commodore_64
Cool, I hope you keep on coding!

------
ChrisMarshallNY
Not too shabby.

Karma of 884 in one day.

------
AlleyTrotter
43 years here

------
scared2
Kudos!

------
themistokl1k
RESPEK

------
shafner99
Beautiful

------
ariza
cool

------
master_yoda_1
respect

------
dilandau
I've been doing this for 10 years, but as a 10x ninja I clearly have racked up
100 man-years of shitting out c.

Jokes aside, i wish I worked with guys who have so much experience. I'm sure
it would be humbling.

------
thoughtsunifica
You're at least old enough to have made the computer that I'm using to do my
codding stuff.

------
teddyh
Every single person who calls you “inspirational” or “impressive” is actually
revealing their own age prejudice. A programmer still programming while
growing old is not something to marvel at, it is _the normal state of things_.
Please do not allow people to put you on a pedestal; this would only
strengthen the age prejudice present in the industry.

Note: You deserve considerable respect and deference for the experience and
skill you have no doubt acquired over the years. Also, since there are so few
people like you who started programming in those years, you are an unusual and
notable person. But don’t let anyone insinuate that it would have been normal
for you to have stopped programming by now. It is not.

~~~
artsyca
The current crop of coders is not going to age well

~~~
JauntyHatAngle
Why?

~~~
artsyca
Ethics are completely dead JauntyHatAngle and the atmosphere is no longer one
of irreverent fun and learning but chilling effects, groupthink and rudderless
management I could write a whole paragraph about it but 57 years ago this was
viewed as a new frontier whereas now it's literally a war zone

