
Soundproofing for New York Noise - miiiiiike
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/13/realestate/soundproofing-for-new-york-noise.html
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discardorama
Street noise can slowly wear down your nerves.

I live in SF, and when I was dating my GF (now wife), she had an apt on a busy
street (Oak Street); I live in an in-law garden unit. The first time I slept
over at her place, I got barely any sleep. When she slept over at my place,
all she heard was birds, leaves and the very occasional Harley or emergency
vehicle. When she slept over, she woke up feeling so much better. So when it
came time to move in together, there was no question where she wanted to be!

On that topic: I wish we could have acoustical limits on vehicle noise. Those
loud motorcycles with the fat pipes: they seriously need to control those.

~~~
great_kraken
I moved to NYC a few months ago, from Long Island, and I have been
experiencing morning headaches. If I look at my sleep logger app, I notice
that after around 5-6 AM, my sleep quality goes way down and moves into mostly
light sleep, almost no deep sleep or REM. There's definitely something to be
said about how street noise affects our sleep patterns.

For me, I'll have to try using earplugs more, but the stress on my ears isn't
so nice because I'm a side sleeper. I wish I could just go to bed earlier, but
I work on a remote team which is half in LA, and it would be counterproductive
if I wasn't able to stay up past 10-11 PM... not to mention my schedule would
conflict with that of my friends and roommates.

~~~
bonniemuffin
Have you tried adding white noise, like sleeping with a fan on? I find it just
as effective as earplugs, which make my ear canals hurt if I wear them all
night. For me, it's not the volume of noise that hurts my sleep quality; it's
the variations in the noise.

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scurvy
FWIW, pink noise helped tremendously with my urban-noise-induced tinnitus at
night.

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nlh
I just went through a fairly thorough soundproofing project for my apartment
in SF. (If anyone has any questions or needs advice, I'm happy to help.)

Few things I learned: 1). It doesn't have to be expensive. My problem was that
I live in a 2BR apartment with a wonderful roommate -- but we share a bedroom
wall, and that wall is thin. So you can imagine the....awkwardness...at times.

I got quotes from various soundproofing specialists that ranged from $10k to
$25k (!!!) to thicken the shared wall and reinforce the bedroom doors.
Hogwash. I did some research, bought some raw materials (Green Glue, QuietRock
sheetrock, solid-core doors, door seals) and did the whole thing for a
fraction of that price.

2) Sound science is fascinating and DIY projects like this are kinda fun :)
I've never been much of a DIYer around the home, but it takes on a whole new
appeal when you have a clean end goal in mind and your quality of life takes a
major improvement when the mission is completed.

Anyway -- this is a fascinating subject and I'm happy to geek out about it
with anyone who's interested.

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noondip
Had you just reinforced the wall, or windows, too? If anyone has advice for
sound-proofing street-facing glass, I would be obliged.

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martin_
That'd be great. I live on Hyde st right by a busy road and the cable car.
I've become more immune to the noise but would love to reduce it. Acoustic
dampening curtains have mixed reviews and are an expensive experiment. Any
other ideas?

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alricb
Outside shutters, either roll up or swinging; better windows, with thicker
glass and more layers; making sure the windows and door openings are properly
air sealed, as well as all construction joints (corners, inside corners, where
the wall meets a floor or the roof, the connection between the foundation wall
or slab and the walls...). Also, all penetrations for wires, pipes, etc. need
to be air sealed.

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jzwinck
One of the culprits:

> air-conditioning units (which are basically unrestricted openings to the
> street)

Window air conditioning units are virtually unknown in a large part of the
warm weather world. We use "split systems," where only a couple thin pipes and
some wires connect the outdoors with the indoors. NYC's fascination with
inefficient window units is really quite strange. I suppose landlords enjoy
not having to pay for installation and maintenance of permanent units.

~~~
tw04
Given that a window unit is on the order of hundreds to a thousand dollars
(for a REALLY nice unit) and the permanent external/internal systems are on
the order of $5-10k, I think the fascination is pretty obvious.

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Cookingboy
What the hell? An indoor/outdoor system costs less than $1k on Amazon:

[http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-Ductless-INVERTER-
Conditioner-...](http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-Ductless-INVERTER-
Conditioner-110~120/dp/B00E9I9I4S/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1450644629&sr=8-9&keywords=air+conditioning)

~~~
jcrawfordor
In an apartment building, installation is going to cost you more than the
actual unit. You need to run fairly heavy hoses to the condenser. You also
aren't going to put a fleet of little one-ton units on the roof, so you're
looking at much larger central condensers or possibly cooling towers for
chilled water (which often ends up cheaper for large installations but
requires more space).

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Cookingboy
Huh...have you traveled to other parts of the world? Look at an apartment
building in Japan or China, those are all over the wall and is the de-facto AC
solution.

Really, installation takes less than an hour and the rest of the world think
Americans are bizarre with the window units.

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ggreer
Soundproofing can be extremely useful, but it's also expensive and unavailable
for most tenants. Because it involves construction work, quality soundproofing
can't happen without the consent of the landlord.

I think a lot of people are overlooking a solution that would improve quality
of life: Make it easier to punish noisy people.

Even when I've lived near busy streets like Van Ness, most of my annoyances
have come from inside the building, not outside. It's amazing how much grief a
careless neighbor can inflict on the dozens around them. All it takes is a
subwoofer and a taste for bass. Even if multiple neighbors complain, there's
little that can be done. In my case, most of the neighbors –including myself–
gave up and moved. Had the laws been more reasonable, the only one moving
would be the cause of the nuisance.

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Futurebot
Yup. Another thing is that many older NYC apartment buildings are built with
paper thin walls/floors, which obviously has no easy fix. Another issue,
especially for people who are just "passing through" the city is a lack of
concern for others since they aren't around long. My current building, for
example, has people moving in an out every 4-6 months. Hard for many to care
when they view their apartment as a glorified hotel room.

The choices in these cases are passive-aggressive notes in the lobby, or
direct confrontation at 3AM when the bass is pumping, which is what it usually
comes down to, unfortunately.

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bradleyjg
Older buildings, at least those built prior to WWII, are specifically sought
out because they don't have paper thin walls and floors. They generally have
plaster interior walls, thick poured concrete floors, and triple layer masonry
exterior walls. Postwar buildings on the other hand tend to have gypsum
(sheetrock) interior walls, thinner reinforced concrete floors acoustically
bound to the frame, and thinner exterior walls. Newer windows are much
quieter, but that's something that can be updated fairly easily.

The worst buildings were probably built from the end of WWII to the early
1970s. Stuyvesant Town apartments, for example, are terribly noisy.

~~~
Futurebot
The buildings I've lived in were built in: 1910 (Lower East Side), 1920
(Yorkville), 1915 (Kensington), 1928 (Brighton Beach), and 1910 (Upper East
Side), and all of them were awfully thin. Maybe we have different definitions
of paper thin, but I have always been able to hear my neighbors: walking,
talking, playing music, taking a shower, or watching TV.

~~~
bradleyjg
Interesting. Do you know if any/all of them had plaster walls? Maybe they had
all been gut renovated at some point?

~~~
Futurebot
No clue at all.

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Uptrenda
Wouldn't an epic startup idea be to build a ventilated, sound-proof,
vibration-proof box for sleeping in and then sell it directly to consumers? I
imagine it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than sound-proofing an entire
house or having to move because of crappy neighbors and I'd sure as hell buy
one if it existed. A device like that probably would have saved me from having
to move from my last house under quite bad terms, plus imagine being able to
have parties in your house and then being able to sleep when you get over it
without having to wind down the whole party. There's probably multiple user-
cases for such a device but I honestly don't know how practical this would be
to build - acoustics != my field.

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grubles
That device is called ear-plugs.

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peter303
Some people cant tolerate ear plugs for long periods of time. They block the
throat tubes and lead to painful infection.

If you are sitting, then noise cancelation headphones are a hygenic
alternative. But this does work for mosr sleeping positions.

~~~
refurb
_They block the throat tubes and lead to painful infection._

????

Your eustachian tubes that connect the back of your throat to your _inner ear_
aren't affect by ear plugs. Your ear drum seals your inner ear from your outer
ear.

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pkaye
Noise is one of the factors we considered in buying a house. Through some
experiments, we derived some metrics. We realized that anything closer than
.25 miles from a highway and we would hear the noise during rush hour. Also
you didn't want to have a house right adjacent to any of the busy streets. Its
amazing how when we walk just one house away from a busy street how much the
noise is attenuated. The peace and quiet when sitting in your backyard is
something to value.

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mahyarm
I live in a condo next to a highway. With trees, some double pane glass,
concrete construction and who knows what else, I don't hear highway noise at
all. When I open the porch window, it sounds like quiet background white
noise.

I actually hear people coming in and out of the condo more than the highway.

~~~
Anechoic
_With trees_

FYI, trees don't block sound unless the strand is extremely dense and at least
100-ft thick. Their value is more psychological (out-of-sight, out-of-mind)
than physical in reducing the perception of noise.

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bubalus
> Sirens, rooftop fans, construction and upstairs neighbors who clomp about
> like a team of clog-dancing Clydesdales are common conditions of city
> living.

It's amazing how oblivious some people are to the fact that every step they
take is actually a huge stomp. I'm surprised their ankles don't shatter from
repeatedly hammering their full body weight down onto their heels.

Isn't it uncomfortable for them to use their heels like pistons? How does it
not hurt?

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whoiskevin
And yet everyone wonders why many choose to commute and not live in a crowded
city or next to a freeway. The Bay Area is extremely noisy with most housing
near major transit. Definitely a growing market for abatement services.

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Anechoic
I don't know why you were downvoted - transportation noise is the major noise
course in this USA and creates a lot of negative affects. We as a society need
mechanized transportation to function as we do, but it creates some negative
effects. At the risk of sounding self-serving, we need to do more to help
reduce these effects, but noise control is waaaaaaaaaaay down the list of
problems that are addressed in capital transportation projects.

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kuschku
> noise control is waaaaaaaaaaay down the list of problems that are addressed
> in capital transportation projects.

At least in Europe it is considered almost always.

But seriously, this sounds like a vicious cycle:

1\. Streets are too loud.

2\. So you move further away, use car instead of walking.

3\. Streets are even louder.

4\. Even more people move into the suburbs.

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Anechoic
_At least in Europe it is considered almost always._

I should have appended "in the USA" to that sentence. Europe is far, far ahead
of us in terms of addressing noise in general and transportation noise in
particular.

For example, many Americans may have noticed that kitchen/home appliances
(dishwashers, washing machines, etc) have gotten significantly quieter over
the last decade or so. The reason for that is that an EU directive set maximum
noise levels for common appliances. Because many manufacturers sell the same
units to the US and to Europe, they designed all of their products to meet the
noise spec and we Americans got the benefit.

In terms of transportation noise, I am continually blown away by the public
and private sector support consultants in western Europe get in support of
noise analysis and noise mapping. I've seen projects in Europe spend more
money address flow noise from a high-speed rail door handle than we get
addressing noise over an entire rail corridor.

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pervycreeper
This kind of noise is the bane of my existence. Any good texts on this subject
out there?

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Anechoic
For a book that's lightly technical, there's F. Alton Everest's "Master
Handbook of Acoustics" that discusses many aspects of acoustics, but does
cover noise control and sound abatement.

For more technical treatments, my go-to books are Leo Beranek's "Acoustics"
(or Beranek's "Noise and Vibration Control" if you just care about the noise
control aspect) and "Fundamentals of Acoustics" by Kinsler and Frey.

~~~
thrownaway2424
Your username lends your post an air of authority :)

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ratsimihah
Can we hire her to tell the drunk people outside to shut up and the neighbor
not to blast his tv at 2am?

~~~
Tharkun
Drunks are a big problem in my neighbourhood, especially on weekends. Last
night I had to get up at 05:00 to tell a bunch of drunks to bugger off. They
didn't like that, so they made more noise. Sigh.

~~~
noondip
My strategy: shine a bright flashlight and don't say a word until they leave.

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emerongi
This. People (especially drunks) don't like confrontation. Just make them feel
uncomfortable and they'll want to get away from you, not the other way around.

Shining a flashlight on them is freaking hilarious.

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somberi
As a owner of an apartment in Greenwhich village, noise-proofing windows is
the extent to which I am allowed to modify my apartment. All else will involve
appealing to the board, appeasing the neighbors during the construction phase
and other headaches - not to mention the cost.

But these windows at about 500$ do a pretty good job.

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mwsherman
Noise is a particularly complex topic (and spiral) here in NYC.

First, the housing stock is old. It’s hard to build new, mostly for zoning
reasons. Old building will be more leaky and creaky.

Unlike most of the country, even new construction does not include central
air, and often does not include central heating. They use wall units called
PTACs, even in “luxury” buildings. These units are loud.

NYC is dense, which means each neighbor’s noise matters more, including our
automotive “neighbors”.

That said, sirens are far and away the biggest problem. They are loud enough
to distort in one’s own ears. Well over 100db at street level. Apartments are
close to the street. And clogged streets means emergency vehicles move slowly,
while screaming.

Reducing this outlier would be the single biggest win, even over car traffic,
which is comparatively benign.

~~~
thrownaway2424
I dunno. I think garbage trucks at night are by far more annoying than sirens.
Maybe it depends on your neighborhood? I really think that NYC should mandate
electric garbage trucks.

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Tharkun
They wake me up every wednesday night. I live in a dead end street, so they
have to reverse for the entire length of the street, all the while going _beep
beep beep, this vehicle is reversing, beep beep beep_. I'm surprised that
stuff isn't illegal.

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kuschku
You should see them in my street (Kiel, Germany) in winter: Backing out, on
ice, _beep beep beep_ , sliding the hill back down, trying to back out again
_beep beep beep_ ... and repeat.

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jensen123
I'm surprised how little focus there is on noise insulation for apartments.
This does not seem to be a high priority for most apartment complexes being
constructed. For example, most people seem to care more about the size of the
apartment than whether or not it's quiet. Personally, I'd rather live in a
quiet 500-square-foot apartment than a noisy 2000-square-foot one. But I guess
I'm different from most people.

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jacques_chester
New apartments are built to be sold, not be lived in. If it _looks_ good _when
it sells_ , that's all that matters.

For this reason, much of the sought-after stock in NYC are townhouses that
were built for, and occupied by, particular families and then later
subdivided.

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schwarz
Amazing! Anyone knows a good source for acoustics fundamentals?

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Anechoic
See my response to pervycreeper

~~~
Casseres
Permalink:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10766834](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10766834)

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jinushaun
No one ever mentions this, but do you know what is almost as bad? The ocean. I
have romantic ideas about living next to the beach. Worse than living next to
a highway.

