
Apple Unveils the iPad Pro - salimmadjd
http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/09/apple-unveils-the-ipad-pro/
======
jff
Predicted by a 3 year old comic:
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COenroJWEAAjLoi.jpg:large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COenroJWEAAjLoi.jpg:large)

~~~
hashberry
And so it begins... the once innovative company is now playing catch up,
losing a little bit of its sex appeal as it copies the bland competition.

~~~
austenallred
I really don't give a shit who is copying who. It's technology; we're all
building on the backs of inventions created by other people. The important
thing to me is who does it the best, not who does it first.

The iPod was nowhere near the first mp3 player, it was just the best one. The
iPad wasn't close to the first tablet. Will it be the best tablet? I don't
know, but whether or not the Surface had a keyboard first won't be the
deciding factor.

Every company is incorporating an absurd number of innovations pioneered by
other people. When it comes to hardware, I just want to love using the device.

~~~
bjacobel
The really galling part is the total refusal to admit they're not doing
anything innovative. "There has never been another product like the iPad Pro
before" was a real quote from today's presentation, and is a complete
falsehood.

~~~
coldtea
It's marketing. And when it comes to marketing its far more true than that
Lynx will get you laid (lol), or that some new detergent will revolutionaze
how clean your clothes are, or that some GAP clothes will make you part of the
"in" crowd.

It's also depends on the level we're talking. If we just take "product like
the iPad pro" to mean "a large tablet" then yes it's a "complete falsehood".

But it obviously means "a large tablet with this attention to detail, with the
supporting OS and app ecosystem finely tuned to work along with it". Which is
true -- as all Surface tablets I've seen are if not subpar, different in
several ways.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _It 's marketing. And when it comes to marketing its far more true than that
> Lynx will get you laid (lol), or that some new detergent will revolutionaze
> how clean your clothes are, or that some GAP clothes will make you part of
> the "in" crowd._

Yes. It's marketing - the magic context in which we suspend our disbelief and
let people lie to our faces, and we then applaud and pay them.

~~~
stouset
You confuse advertising and marketing.

Marketing is the process of figuring out who a product is for and how to get
them to want to buy it (through channels like engineering, design, and yes,
advertising). Apple being an excellent marketing company isn't a slur — it's
an incredible complement. They absolutely excel at understanding who their
target audience is, building devices that appeal to that audience, and
advertising to ensure that audience is aware of how those devices address
needs they may not have even known they had.

~~~
Spivak
Eight, let's not try to twist words here. Apple is great at marketing but I
don't think that was person's intended meaning. He means that Apple is good at
manipulating people.

They make _okay_ products (in absolute terms, not implying that anything is
better) and would not have their completely rabid following did they not
manipulate people into buying into their status, lifestyle, and that they're
more valuable than their worth.

------
slg
It is interesting comparing Microsoft and Apple's convertible tablet strategy.
Microsoft's devices use the full OS and are basically laptops first and
tablets second while Apple is doing the opposite. If this is truly designed to
be "Pro" as in enterprise , I think Microsoft's strategy is going to lead to
more productive and therefore better enterprise devices.

EDIT: And after the price is revealed the scales tip a little more in
Microsoft's favor. The entry level iPad Pro is the same price as a Surface Pro
3, but has half the disk space and doesn't include the stylus.

~~~
Someone
The risk with Microsoft's approach is that companies will think "our Windows
app runs fine on Surface" and invest little on making their application work
great on Surface because they form a small part of the market.

The risk with Apple's approach is that companies will think "it's too much
work to make a custom UI for such a small market".

I guess time will tell who wins this. Possibly, things will go like they went
with Mac OS and Windows: some companies decided to build applications for the
Mac, thus forcing others out of the market, and making it easier for them to
develop Windows versions. Another possibility is that the way larger market in
2015 vs 1985 and the existence of many existing iOS apps makes more companies
decide that developing a custom UI for iPad Pro is worth the effort.

~~~
benologist
I think Apple will have a very hard time convincing companies to port /
produce complex apps that come with a lifetime of free updates. Mac App store
has failed pretty objectively at applying iOS conventions to serious software.

~~~
Someone
Maybe, but what surprises me every time I browse the App Store is the amount
of expensive apps I encounter. There are many textbooks that have made the
jump to iPad while keeping prices that are far above $10.

For an example, see [http://www.pcronline.com/eurointervention/textbook/pcr-
textb...](http://www.pcronline.com/eurointervention/textbook/pcr-textbook/):

 _" Get the iPad application for only $149.99"_

Maybe that is just a web site in an app with limited interactivity, but there
definitely seems to be competition in that market. The disadvantage of free
updates in such markets may be more than balanced by the advantage of very
limited ability to resell apps (the easiest way I know to resell apps is to
create separate iTunes accounts for each app, and let te buyer set a new
password for that account. That becomes impractical soon, of you have tens of
apps)

That 3D knee visualization, to me, seems a clear indication of that.

------
bigtunacan
The announcements today just make me hang my head in chagrin. I love Apple
products. Both my wife and I only use Macbooks, we have multiple iPads, iPods,
and a second generation Apple TV.

I look at this iPad Pro though and I see a totally useless device. For a
device at that size, weight, and cost you would be better served buying an
Macbook Air. If you want a tablet form factor then you would be better served
buying a Surface, since at least it runs a real operating system designed for
"pro" use not the closed eco system that is iOS. I "upgraded" from an iPad to
a iPad mini, because I didn't want to carry around such a large device that is
just a glorified eReader that I can waste time on with games. Then I
"upgraded" again to a Kindle Paperwhite since it's lighter still, the battery
lasts forever, I can read it in bright sunlight, and I don't get distracted
and waste my time on pointless things like Doodle Jump. Everything else can
run on my phone anyway which now comes in tablet sizes if that is what you
want.

Then the Apple TV. My current generation Apple TV is unplugged and gathering
dust while I use the Smart TV, PS4, Xbox 360 (In that order) for my on demand
streaming. More and more Apple TV becomes unnecessary as what it does it build
into televisions. Why Apple didn't put iTunes on Smart TVs, Roku, game
systems, etc... so I could rent/purchase my videos there is beyond me; but now
I (along with many others) have moved on to competitors. Almost forgot to
mention; this thing doesn't even support UHD?

Tim Cook needs a wake up call.

~~~
camillomiller
This comment is exactly why HN won't never understand anything about Apple
announcements. Highly technical folks, unable to get out of their technical
bias, reprimanding the extremely successful decision makers of a successful
company because they pretend to know the matter, while completely ignoring the
real world scenarios that actually drive Apple products sales.

~~~
mamon
It is not a "technical bias", it is more your bias towards Apple. Take the
last year's iPhone 6 as an example: HN members complained about small screen
sizes for a long time, and it took Steve Job's death to actually make that
happen, but gues what? iPhone 6 is most succesfull iPhone ever. Apple did some
innovations few years ago (original iPhone, iPad), but since then most of new
features in Apple products are taken from Android an WP devices. I personally
would like to see Apple's response to Lenovo Yoga 3 (convertible
tablet/ultrabook) and for some time I hoped that iPad Pro will be just that.
Unfortunately it isn't so the chances of me buying it just fell around 0%.

~~~
etchalon
So 3D Touch is something Android has?

This is mostly a tongue-in-cheek comment, but the broader point is that of
course Apple has "innovated" since the original iPhone, iPad, iWhatever. In
some big ways, and in some small ways. But so have other players in the
industry. Apple has borrowed some good ideas from them, just as they have
borrowed good ideas from Apple.

However saying Apple hasn't innovated since those original announcements is so
hilariously ludicrous.

~~~
Thimothy
Actually... It does. Huawei did a demo about it a few months ago.

[http://www.androidauthority.com/huawei-mate-s-force-touch-
ha...](http://www.androidauthority.com/huawei-mate-s-force-touch-
hands-640251/)

It's okay to live inside a ecosystem, but don't pretend to know what happens
outside it.

~~~
mattkevan
There's a world of difference between a demo – and an 'very limited indeed'
implementation, and a flagship feature supported at a deep level by the OS.

Force touch on Android will never get anywhere until it's specifically
supported by Google (who unless I'm mistaken, haven't included it in M), and
the install rate is high enough to make it worthwhile. I'm sure more OEMs will
include it, but individually they won't have the clout to make it go anywhere.

It's a bit like the argument around NFC. My Nexus 6 has it, but until M is
released with Google Pay, it's pretty much useless. Apple waited until they
had a compelling use-case, and only then included it. I would not be surprised
if the use of NFC is far higher on iOS than Android.

~~~
jhasse
I have NFC (Galaxy S4) and never used it to pay, still would miss it. You can
easily send links or photos, I did this a while back with a friend who has a
SONY Z3 and it worked flawlessly. Also I can pair my wireless headset with my
phone using NFC.

I can use Google Pay in the future with my over 2 years old device. Apple
users have to buy a new iPhone for that.

------
gorena
"Who wants a stylus? You have to get 'em, put 'em away, you lose 'em. Yuck!
Nobody wants a stylus. So let's not use a stylus."

-Steve Jobs

~~~
bane
This is Apple definitely responding to high-end pressure from increasingly
successful Surfaces in the same way the iPad mini was a response to pressure
from the low-end by small Android tablets.

This is basically Apple saying "let's make a Surface with a bigger screen and
do it the Apple way".

It's weird seeing Microsoft participate in it.

Other than size, there's not much that Android tablets need to respond to,
there's already been large high-end Android tablets with great pen input (no
angle detection, but they're all Watcom class).

What I think was most interesting here was the incessant pitch that this is a
productivity device not a media consumption device.

For the full experience you're looking at:

$800 for the pad

$100 for the pencil

$170 for the keyboardcase

And we're in low-end laptop territory without necessarily cannibalizing their
laptop business, but it fires shots across the bow of also increasingly
popular Chromebooks which are around this price point.

Edit: for people confused, I meant a low-end Apple laptop not a Windows
machine, which are much cheaper. This is priced to barely overlap with the
bottom-end. The pricing ensures the two segments are partitioned.

~~~
izzydata
$1000 gets you a powerful high end laptop in terms of hardware. You might be
sacrificing build quality at that price though, but you can get good specs for
that.

~~~
ant6n
...and on the software side, you don't even have sysadmin access

~~~
derefr
Or, from the opposed perspective, you're paying Apple to do your sysadmin
tasks for you.

(Really, you do have sysadmin access, if you care enough. My iPhone has a
profile on it put there by my [big, enterprise-y] employer, which gives them
the ability to do pretty much whatever they want—including side-loading
applications. I'm surprised nobody has used the "corporate-owned device"
method to build an App store yet.)

~~~
igravious
I'm not invested in the Apple ecosystem any more. Is this true? Being trying
to find a link to some authoritative info on this but haven't thus far.

Do you mean this?
[http://www.apple.com/iphone/business/it/management.html](http://www.apple.com/iphone/business/it/management.html)

I see no mention of being able to side-load apps.

~~~
pinaceae
Business use a dev license, then deploy their own apps via side-loading.
Standard practice by now. And "own" apps is becoming a very loose definition,
3rd party develops, then signs with corp key.

------
blinkingled
Looks like the Surface Pro with type cover and Stylus. As long as the mobile
OS and locked down ecosystem limits it, many will be better off buying the
Surface.

Although the stylus too seems to be inferior - it has batteries. Both the
Surface and Note ones don't - probably because Wacom? If that's the case this
is classic NIH case - putting out inferior product just because they couldn't
call it Apple Pencil.

~~~
hcurtiss
SP3 stylus uses batteries. Two of them. Not an issue, and I find the
technology far more accurate than the Wacoms, especially around the edges.

~~~
blinkingled
Thanks, I wasn't aware that SP3 wasn't using Wacom.

~~~
intended
Ntrig, and msft bought ntrig earlier this year.

------
noahbradley
Speaking as an artist who uses the Surface Pro 3 for all of my work, an iPad
Pro will be useless without the right software. And as great as Procreate
might be, it's not Photoshop and will never be Photoshop. Without the ability
to run full desktop apps, this would never be much more than a toy for me.

~~~
rsync
I sympathize with this, although playing devils advocate ... if adobe has web-
based photoshop (which I think they do ?) then does it matter ?

~~~
nsxwolf
My suspicion is the Pencil will not work with it, or if it does, will not have
acceptable latency.

~~~
tsumnia
I'd be curious who they brought in to test the iPad Pro out. I really enjoyed
the fact Microsoft used Penny-Arcade for their Surface and even let them write
about the experience. As a consumer, it made me feel like Microsoft cared a
great deal about making sure that demographic was heard and they designed a
product with that demo in mind.

------
ape4
I know this is petty, but every time I see an Apple demo and they are saying
how many inches the screen is I think - wow that's a really uncool and old
fashioned system of measures. If Apple can force standards - like Thunderbolt
- how about using centimeters. Edit: they can even say they invented the
metric system - ok with me ;)

~~~
cyrus_
Apple is a US company and the keynote is in the US. Inches are not considered
"uncool" nor "old fashioned" in the US. The US tried switching to metric many
years ago, but it didn't work.

I'm sure their localized advertising for other countries lists the dimensions
in metric units.

~~~
robotresearcher
Nope. The UK and German stores give e.g. iPad Air 2 thickness in mm, weight in
grams and screen size in inches.

They are sticking to inches deliberately for screen measurement. They even use
the German 9,7" instead of the US/UK 9.7" so it's not that they forgot to
translate.

~~~
realityking
Oddly enough, screen sizes are one of the things that are measures in imperial
units all over the world. Another example would be engines, where horsepower
is incredibly popular.

~~~
e28eta
Maybe because it's really hard to visualize/understand the size of a device
based on diagonal screen size? It's only useful to me as a number to compare
to other devices. I need height and width, which they do localize.

------
roymurdock
_The iPad Pro is going to be available in November — 32GB for $799, 64GB for
$949 and 128GB for $1,079. The $1,079 comes with Wi-Fi and cellular. The
keyboard is going to cost $169 and the stylus is going to cost $99 — magic
isn’t cheap._

Can someone explain this absurd pricing strategy to me?

~~~
zxcvcxz
I just want someone to explain the $99 stylus. What's so special about it?

~~~
roymurdock
It's like the $80 magsafe charger. Thing probably costs $3 to manufacture and
distribute, but good luck using your macbook without one.

Simple price gouging, but most customers are happy to pay.

~~~
ctdonath
Someone did a detailed comparison between the $19 Apple 500mW cube charger vs
a no-name $4 lookalike. Short version: the former is an engineering marvel of
efficiency, compactness, and safety ... while the latter is likely to kill
someone.

You may not appreciate the "diminishing returns" of increased quality for
increased price, but Apple's bottom line shows a great many do.

~~~
therein
Oh come on, that's such a sweeping generalization. Just because someone
compared Apple's cube charger with one of thousands of knockoffs and found
that the Apple charger actually adhered with the safety regulations does not
mean that Apple's accessories are appropriately priced due to their quality.
It doesn't even mean the charger deserves the $19 price tag. How about the
iPhone 6 docks, are they also a marvel of engineering? Are their prices
justified?

~~~
ctdonath
"Simple price gouging" is also a sweeping generalization.

You pay for quality. Generally equivalent functionality can be had cheaper,
and returns diminish as price rises, but as there are prolific options
available "price gouging" hardly applies.

[sigh] This is a friendly chat board. I'm not inclined to provide encyclopedic
peer-reviewed proofs to someone taking cheap shots.

------
NathanCH
[https://i.imgur.com/sV4SZyD.png](https://i.imgur.com/sV4SZyD.png)

What is going on with Apple's line-up? This is unnecessarily confusing.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
Yeah for a long time it was higher the version number the better and the rest
was old, sold at refurbished. Now they have new with lower version numbers
selling along side the other ones? There goes that simplicity. Maybe in the
end this is better for the bottom line but it's just uncharacteristic.

~~~
elemenopy
Also, how come on the slide they are selling iPad Mini 2 & 4 but not iPad Mini
3? This is so confusing

~~~
josephpmay
The iPad Mini 3 is just an iPad Mini 2 with touchID. They probably figured
touchID should remain a differentiating feature to upcharge for.

~~~
randyrand
They should have just called it ipad Mini 2 with TouchID. It didn't even
improve on the CPU. bah-humbug!

------
etimberg
It looks like it would be really awesome to have, but I have a feeling that
it's going to be much more expensive than the current iPads. If that's the
case, it almost makes more sense to buy a Surface Pro 3.

~~~
hullo
If you're going to be using the web and Microsoft apps exclusively, it does,
sure.

~~~
Amezarak
If by "Microsoft apps" you mean any program compiled for Windows in addition
to any of those that can run on an OS supported by VirtualBox.

So the iPad can run iOS apps while the Surface can run virtually anything
except iOS apps.

They're not really comparable platforms.

~~~
gress
Are you seriously suggesting that anything more than a tiny fraction of
Windows apps are any good on a touch device?

~~~
Aldo_MX
You can run not only Windows Apps but Android Apps and Chrome Apps

~~~
gress
There are no serious pro Android apps, and Chrome Apps are not touch typically
designed for touch, so this changes nothing.

~~~
Aldo_MX
I use this in my surface tablet, the performance is great, it doesn't even
feel it's emulated:

[http://www.amiduos.com/](http://www.amiduos.com/)

~~~
gress
What Pro apps does that allow you to run?

~~~
Aldo_MX
What do you mean by "Pro" apps? Photoshop? Illustrator? Premiere? After
Effects? Autocad? 3DS Max? Eclipse? Netbeans? IntelliJ? Visual Studio?

AFAIK mobile OSes don't have "Pro" apps, just niche apps, and unless those
niche apps use ARM assembly or something that an x86 wouldn't run at native
speed, you should have no issues.

~~~
gress
The discussion here is about the availability of software for Pro tablets -
specifically the iPad Pro, and the Surface Pro 3. You have correctly
established that the Surface Pro 3 can run Android apps very well.

I was curious about why it's valuable to run Android apps on a Pro tablet, or
whether it's just a curiosity for running phone apps. If there was an
important pro app that ran on android tablets that was made available to
Windows users via emulation, that would seem to be a meaningful advantage.

It seems this is not the case.

~~~
Aldo_MX
The point about having an hybrid device is that you can use it in different
ways, ex. as a laptop when you are doing productive work, or as a tablet when
you just want to relax and check social networks or play some games. You don't
need to purchase 2 different devices.

The fact that you are using a "pro" device doesn't mean you wouldn't want to
use "non-pro" apps, and having a full-featured Android subsystem (which
emulates ARM if needed) is a good advantage when you want to use apps that
don't exist in the Windows market, or want to use your previous purchases in
markets like Amazon or Google Play.

Remember that several companies just focus in releasing iOS and Android apps
and fall back to the web version for desptop, which usually is not optimized
with a touch-friendly workflow.

~~~
gress
If your argument is that the ability to run android apps gives surface an
advantage over iPad pro because of access to non-pro tablet apps, this makes
no sense at all. The iPad has a better library of non-pro tablet apps by far.

The only question is which device is better for running tablet apps aimed at
Pros. I think that is currently open to debate, but Android isn't even a
player, so running Android apps is no advantage.

------
hullo
& just announcing "The Smart Keyboard", smart case built just for iPad Pro
with keyboard built in. "Unlike any keyboard you've ever used before."

With Apple Fabric! And an Apple Dome Switch!

~~~
ihuman
For anyone that doesn't know this, you can connect USB keyboard to the iPad
Camera Connection kit. It works with most keyboards, including mechanical
ones.

~~~
tdicola
Or just use a bluetooth keyboard and forget all the dongle and wire mess.

~~~
comex
But don't forget to charge the keyboard ;)

------
rjurney
I am continuously amused at how the startup tech crowd can't see how
innovative Apple products are... and yet they inevitably chase the markets
Apple creates a few years later.

For most of you, I would suggest that the innovation in the web and mobile
spaces were the development of the platforms, and your web/mobile app does not
constitute innovation. In other words, you have no idea what innovation looks
like.

~~~
iolothebard
And this is the most amazing thing ever:
[http://www.relato.io/](http://www.relato.io/)

Your smug is leaking.

~~~
rjurney
Mapping markets constitutes basic research. Product aside, it is important
work. Understanding markets better makes them more efficient.

Is this new?
[http://oreilly.com/go/mapbigdata](http://oreilly.com/go/mapbigdata) It is the
first data driven market report. What have you done first?

What are you building that is new or ambitious?

~~~
72deluxe
Is it a competition?

Odd attitudes I see sometimes.

~~~
rjurney
No, it shouldn't be. I didn't claim to innovate myself, but I can at least
recognize the complexity of researching and crafting new interfaces the whole
world can't figure out.

Having just done something new, I lost my temper. Which is crap behavior, I
admit.

Wait... yes, it is a competition. Maybe not in this forum.

------
jasonkostempski
What about Pencil from 53?
[http://www.fiftythree.com/pencil](http://www.fiftythree.com/pencil)

Edit: To clarify, seems like they shouldn't (maybe couldn't, but I don't see a
TM on the 53 site) call it Pencil since there is already a device made
specifically for iPad called Pencil.

~~~
tvon
It is not clear what question you are asking.

~~~
captn3m0
This is an existing stylus product that works with the iPad called Pencil.

~~~
bpicolo
It's not exactly an imaginative name for the direct analogue.

------
gshakir
"Who knows more about productivity than Microsoft" ?

~~~
gadrfgaesgysd
Audience gave Schiller the exact response he wanted (notice the silence and
the delayed laughter). On paper it look like Apple is giving credit to
Microsoft, but the subtext is: it's a joke, don't take the sentence too
seriously, and Apple is still better at productivity.

~~~
72deluxe
I don't know - Microsoft is massive in businesses. You only see Macs at web
development companies or design agencies, typically. And even then if they
grow in size a Windows AD machine may be in a back room because SOHO is the
only server system Apple targets. They are pretty productive and Office is
widely considered a necessity. (I could be wrong, btw)

I thought it was quite a complimentary thing to say.

------
jameshart
I found it interesting that there was no mention of handwriting recognition
for the pencil input - just not on the radar, it seems. Probably for the best,
it's always been a disappointment on every device it's been used on.

Official support for an external keyboard for iPad is interesting - among the
'professional' kinds of applications that might now become possible to use on
a device like this are development tools: code editors, command line
interfaces... any chance that as they open up the scope of what's possible on
the device, they'll liberalize the app store policies that currently prevent
those kinds of things being created?

~~~
randyrand
I agree. Interesting. Typing became faster than writing is what caused it IMO.

------
RexRollman
I know a lot of you will think this is ridiculous but I want one to read
digital comics with. I find the 9.7" iPad screen too small for this but the
iPad Pro might work.

~~~
michaelbuddy
surface pro 3 has been out for over a year. also has more storage capacity for
all those comics you want to read.

~~~
RexRollman
I wouldn't touch the Surface in light of Windows 10's issues with privacy.
(Not that iOS doesn't have some issues itself.)

~~~
anjc
Windows 8.1 is amazing on the Surface Pro. W10 is a major step back for me.
It's also the perfect form factor for reading graphic novels, although it's
easier holding an iPad Air for extended periods.

~~~
RexRollman
Your not the first one I have heard say that but the screenshots I've seen of
Windows 10 makes me think it is still pretty usuable.

------
ChuckMcM
Well they went and did it, finally released the iPad that I've been looking
for, now it will be interesting to see who, other than me, buys one. Since it
is my #1 reading device these days. Only way to make it perfect would be to
add an SD card and boost the battery life to 18hrs+. I'm really interested in
how well the pen compares to the Surface 3 Pro's pen as well.

Of course it would be really interesting to see a "stripe" cover, which has a
stripe reader rather than a keyboard in it :-).

------
macspoofing
Two years ago I tried really hard to use my iPad as my primary workstation (or
at least primary outside of the office). It didn't work. No mouse support, no
multi-tasking, and very mediocre keyboard support. What they released today
doesn't fix any of the above.

~~~
72deluxe
Did you try that with an Android tablet? Sadly battery life is miles worse on
Android, in my experience.

~~~
macspoofing
Never bothered. I liked the iPad screen aspect ratio and size.

------
slg
After digging in a little more on the details, it doesn't look like Pencil
will be compatible with any other device outside the iPad Pro. That is a
little disappointing and there doesn't appear to be any specific hardware
reason for it. I would welcome the opportunity to replace my paper notebook
with a iPad Mini 4 and Pencil.

------
Xcelerate
I don't understand the allure of a "pro" iPad. Wouldn't you just want a laptop
then? The keyboard is (at least for me) the fastest _accurate_ text input
device ever invented. It's the main reason I type everything instead of write
it by hand.

~~~
aianus
I wish this thing existed when I was studying math in school. It's not
practical to do math with a keyboard.

~~~
Tenobrus
I've found LaTeX pretty practical. Not quite as easy as handwriting, but
practical enough. Once I got enough practice I have access to the documents
everywhere, don't have to worry about my horrible handwriting, and can copy-
paste equations into Wolfram Alpha to check correctness. An editor with
customizable key commands helps too. Took me about two months to get fast
enough, but now I use LaTeX for basically all note taking and homework.

------
Nib
People crying about Steve Job's views on a stylus:

1\. Really, he said that for a phone. But considering the argument valid even
on a tablet, well, to put it in scale, the iPad Pro is barely a tablet. It's
nearly the average laptop screen(not considering those shitty huge ones that
don't fit in bags).

2\. Have you even looked at that thing. It's pretty slick. Imagine the utility
to artists(the pencil from FiftyThree is an example of its utility).

3\. They don't put a ass-like slot to shove it up. Period. That is, I suspect
the biggest problem I've had with a stylus. They just do NOT make it
compulsory for you to buy one, contrary to what Microsoft or Samsung would
have(and are still) done.

------
AstroJetson
I didn't see the entire demo, but can I write on it? I have a pencil, can I
write words and have them come out as text? I'm happy to write in Palm's
Graffitti. It works now for iDevices and my finger, but the new pencil would
make that easier.

Looking for the ad that says: "I'm an enterprise business drone, I go to
meetings, I need to take notes. I use my iPad Pro and my iPencil and by the
time I walk out of the room the meeting notes are to my team."

Otherwise it's not something I can use. While my doodles make my co-workers
laugh, not sure that my PHB wants to buy me one of these....

------
jefflinwood
Exciting to see the Apple Pencil/Smart Keyboard - this appears to be very
similar to the Surface Pro 3, leaving the ball in Microsoft's court for their
Surface Pro 4.

(Leaving aside all the differences in software)

~~~
JohnTHaller
You can't really compare them without talking about the software, though. The
Surface runs a full desktop OS in addition to tablet-style apps while the iPad
Pro can only run iOS apps... making the Surface better for media/content
creation and the iPad Pro better for consumption. The Surface also has an
active digitizer compared to the passive one in the iPad Pro for better
sensitivity, resolution, and accuracy.... unless of course Apple's Pencil is
miraculously better than the dozens of similar products already on the market
including the one they stole the name from:
[http://www.fiftythree.com/pencil](http://www.fiftythree.com/pencil)

~~~
jagger27
What's truly funny is that Surface Pro can run OS X with a bit (actually, a
lot) of fiddling.

------
brandon272
Why am I always left yearning for more with these latest Apple keynotes? I
feel like Apple's innovation has gone from "groundbreaking" to "safe". All of
these products are just too predictable.

It used to be that after an Apple keynote you'd be talking about the products
with friends, family and coworkers the following afternoon/day and waiting
eagerly for them to hit the stores. No longer. The "I need to have this!"
feeling has evolved into a "maybe one day I will consider that".

I see people's critiques of the iPad Pro being countered with, "But it's not
for you!" ... Then who is it for, exactly? Apple didn't seem to imply or treat
it like a niche product in their keynote. Tim Cook said something about it
being the centrepiece of the iPad lineup.

I'm an avid Apple TV user but they aren't doing anything groundbreaking with
it. Enough with the charade and actually give me something I can replace my
cable package with. Despite the nightmare that is cable TV, Apple TV's
available content doesn't compete, especially for _new_ content. Fix that and
charge me for it. People have been yearning for Apple to modernize TV like
they've modernized music and aside from what appear to be basic agreements
with distributors for pay-per-episode next-day TV shows and some movies that
they've had in place for a while, they haven't brought much to the table.

------
tetraodonpuffer
no USB port to be able to easily copy files to/from seems a bit detrimental to
pro usage, as well as no way to connect an external display for presentations.

This said there are plenty of use cases for a larger ipad with a stylus, I am
sure it will be a very successful product.

~~~
robotresearcher
> no USB port to be able to easily copy files to/from

It's networked. iCloud, Dropbox, email, etc.

> as well as no way to connect an external display for presentations.

All current iPads have a dongle for HDMI out. And they can output to Apple TV.
Do you think they removed that for this one?

Despite the cute size and gorgeous screen I still haven't found a great use
for the iPad.

edit:

Just looked at the dongles available. There's both USB and SD card input and
VGA output as well the HDMI I mentioned.

~~~
asdtgy
"let's make everything a dongle"... that is to be expected from Apple ... or
being completely unavailable... and stick to proprietary ports...

~~~
robotresearcher
"let's not make everyone carry around the cost and size of the ports they
won't use."

~~~
icebraining
I suppose that's why Apple devices are so much cheaper than the competitors.

~~~
robotresearcher
Yep, you can find cheaper products with more ports. Go buy one and be happy.
This one is the mindshare, design and profit leader, which is why we're
talking about it.

~~~
WorldWideWayne
Most people are comparing it to a much more capable product.

------
dangoor
The Innovators Dilemma[1] is a great book for thinking about announcements
like this. A "disruptive innovation" does something really well such that some
people want it, but it is inferior in many ways to the market leaders. The
market leaders can even laugh at the weak alternative and wonder why someone
would want it.

Over time, though, the "inferior" solution gradually meets more and more of
the needs that were previously served by the market leaders... and eventually
it wins (if the stars align and all that... but the examples in the book show
how companies can be blind to the disruptors).

Starting with the iPhone in 2007, on the surface Apple was disrupting
phones/smartphones. But it was also music players. And then cameras. And, with
the iPad, computers. When I first saw the iPad, I thought "someday, this will
be the perfect computer for my mom". That time came when they added printing.

Really, what they started disrupting in 2007 was computing in general. With
iOS, they're trying to make an interaction model that works better for today's
use cases than what we had before. The iPad Pro is one more step along the
line of replacing our computers.

Clearly, iOS devices are inferior to Macs for _our_ (Hacker News readers)
needs. Today.

All of that said, it's an interesting race to see which model "wins" between
Microsoft's "blend the old and new worlds" and Apple's "clean break".

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator's_Dilemma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator's_Dilemma)

------
drinchev
I wouldn't imagine a device like that to literally goes out without any decent
content creation thought in mind. I'm sick of using my medium (now) screen
iPad as a comment maker. I want to use it for development. I want my iPad to
run WebStorm , SublimeText, GitHub.

I want a jailbreak iOS that is capable of running a desktop Apps on that new
desktop-performance iPad.

This should've been the big news about the new big-size iPad.

~~~
devindotcom
Seems to me the iPad was always intended as a content consumption device.
Seems like your use case is much, much better served by an iPad Air - which
costs about the same as an iPad Pro but is way more developer friendly.

It's kind of like saying "man, they ought to sharpen these spoons up, I can't
cut my food with them at all!" A little bit, anyway.

At any rate they're starting down this road so your use case won't be so rare
or unaccommodated soon.

~~~
wingerlang
> Seems to me the iPad was always intended as a content consumption device.

But the whole video about this pro was that it was great as a content creation
device. Drawing, image editing, multitasking and document creation etc.

------
adultSwim
These techcrunch articles are little more than Apple press releases (i.e. ads)

------
Jack000
Personally all I really want is a macbook air with retina.

I feel like apple has really been resting on its laurels the last few years.
During the Jobsian era they'd come up with a new, category-defining product
every few years. Now all we get is yearly updates of existing product lines.

well, here's hoping for a "one more thing" moment.

~~~
pat2man
Isn't that the MacBook?
[http://www.apple.com/macbook/](http://www.apple.com/macbook/)

~~~
Jack000
I don't think so, for one it's a major downgrade in terms of power. I thought
the 12" macbook would be the entry level notebook, and there would be
something in the macbook air form factor right above it.

~~~
justizin
I felt this way for a while, but I have a hard time arguing that my 15" Retina
MacBook Pro is too large or heavy. You don't even get quad-core on anything
smaller, so the performance jump between a 12" "New Macbook" and an 11" or 13"
"Macbook air" is fairly marginal. I'd expect that gap to close in the next
product cycle as well, since the 12" MacBook is the first run, has some heat
issues, etc..

------
gshakir
It is in direct competition to the 'Surface Pro'.

~~~
zxcvcxz
Except it runs iOS and not a full desktop operating system. Why would a "pro"
user choose this over a surface pro/MBP/ubuntu certified system?

~~~
rimantas
It is not desktop, so that makes sense. If it suits your workflow, why not? I
can see it replacing wacoms for many.

~~~
eropple
"Many"? Who? It won't work for web design, because it doesn't handle a file
system. It's a more expensive option than a Cintiq or a Surface Pro and
doesn't work with the existing install base of Adobe CC products (or the tons
of third-party software that works with them), and any other art tools that
come out will be in the exact same boat.

I think you're projecting, and severely.

------
ThomPete
I still believe that in order for apple to get more iPads sold, Apple need to
move towards enterprise which IMO means they need to loose the Sandbox
requirements which is holding back a lot of innovation.

The iPad Pro is a beautiful machine but it's hardly going to change the issues
that apple generally have with selling the iPad.

One solution could be to give Sandbox control to enterprises instead, so they
could keep security high while still being offered some freedom to innovate on
the platform. It's really holding a lot of interesting applications back IMO.

Until then I fear that it's not going to do much for the sales at least not
quantity wise.

~~~
JeremyBanks
[https://developer.apple.com/programs/enterprise/](https://developer.apple.com/programs/enterprise/)

Enterprise customers can already sign their own apps for internal use.

~~~
ThomPete
Yeah but still sandbox restrictions no?

~~~
robterrell
What sandbox restrictions exactly? Enterprise apps are signed and distribution
is typically limited to members of the the organization, which is what you'd
expect from an enterprise app program. Enterprise apps don't go through apple
approvals so you could use private APIs if you wanted to.

~~~
ThomPete
Good point about the Private APIs. Still I suspect it's also a perception
problem.

------
rw2
Mac got this product completely wrong. We needed a tablet that runs Mac OS
that we can use for work not a bigger iOS form factor. One of the worst
product decision I've seen Apple make.

~~~
0x4a42
Couldn't agree more. "Pro" is OS X, not iOS.

------
veidr
This makes the iPad ("finally") a legitimate successor to the Apple Newton
MessagePad 2100 (from the 1990s), and incidentally the first iPad that I
personally am excited about buying.

The stylus is not just some accessory. Real stylus support is a _fundamental
advance_ that revolutionizes the device. This is every bit as significant (for
the iPad) as a keyboard-only computer finally supporting mouse input.

(To stretch that analogy a bit, the stylus products available for the iPad so
far would be like wiring an Atari 2600 controller to the PC and being able to
do rudimentary cursor movements with it.)

The stylus was a fundamental advance for humankind, too. The first stylus was
invented about 30 seconds after the first caveperson discovered that flat
surfaces are good for drawing on with your fingers. And humans have used them
ever since.

Steve Jobs was right that "If you see a stylus [as a requirement for basic
input and manipulation of the device], they blew it [if they meant their
device to be a mainstream consumer product]."

There's a corollary, though: If a tablet meant to be directly manipulated
_doesn 't_ support a stylus, it is going to be worse than a simple piece of
paper and a pen for a wide variety of everyday tasks. (Meeting notes, class
notes, sketches, etc.)

The iPad has sucked at all of those things, forever. (Despite the amazing
(truly!) software enhancements that have made fingerpainting pretty
expressive.)

I cannot think of a more fundamental advance Apple could have bestowed upon
the iPad.

They are indeed playing catchup -- I have all the iPad generations at work and
have never used them for much. I do use the Microsoft Surface Pro 3; it has a
lot of shortcomings but is hugely, objectively superior to any iPad for taking
notes (in just about any setting one would take free-form notes in). But it's
heavy, fans, Windows, etc.

I am a refugee from the end of the Newton days. In college, I took all my
notes on an MP2000 and it was amazing. It totally worked, for text and
diagrams, on balance better than paper. And nothing since then has been both
highly portable and as good at note taking. The iPad is better than the Newton
at lots of things -- movies and _media consumption_ come to mind (</troll>) --
but even almost two decades later, no iPad has never been even close to as
good as the MP2100 is at taking notes.

So, $1050 for the new iPad Pro plus the stylus? Funny coincidence, that's
exactly what I paid for my last Newton. Sign me the fuck up; I'll take a
couple.

------
mrmondo
I know I'm taking the bate here but it seems to me that this is a product
marketed towards artists and is clearly not a stylus for operating the device
which was common practise before the iPhone was launched for the reason of
mitigating the problems with resistive touch screens that were widely used at
the time.

Calling this a stylus seems a bit like calling a paintbrush a chisel, and by
that I don't mean that it's better than a chisel I mean that it's a completely
different tool.

------
WhitneyLand
In a dream world Apple would license all OS's.

Then you'd have a Surface Pro hardware running iOS and OSX in a VM to access
mobile and Mac Apps, and Windows 10 to run anything else.

------
cft
I would like to short APPL long term, say for 4-5 years. Is there a (simple)
mechanism to short a stock long term, that is immune to local price
fluctuations?

~~~
gargarplex
LEAP puts.

------
AstroJetson
(second post different topic) Work uses Two Factor Authentication using
certificates. Presently they are on a USB smart card or a device with a smart
card reader. So far it works well on Surface and Android tablets. Did anybody
see the iOS9 section if they will support certificates? Living in a smartcard
world, this is also a must. Apple hasn't cracked the Citrix world so far, they
keep saying iOSx+1.

------
api
Not excited at all. Mobile OSes are crippled by design, especially iOS, so why
would I spend this much when I can just get a real computer with a very
similar form factor? Mobile OSes are fundamentally designed for quick, limited
interaction use cases like ordering an Uber car or checking a web site, not
for "real work."

I'm sure someone will buy it, but I don't predict it'll be very big.

~~~
webXL
Just like the top of line products from any company. They fill a niche, and
they're more about gaining a competitive edge than they are about generating
tons of profit. You see one in a coffee shop, go to the store (instead of a
competitor's) and see the price, and walk out with an Air 2.

~~~
api
Good point about total coverage. Apple probably does not want any gaps in
their lineup that might be filled by Microsoft or Google or any other vendor.

I would just by a small form factor ultraportable laptop, but yeah -- it's
about brand penetration.

------
72deluxe
Very interesting to see the Microsoft demo on it and warm welcome during the
keynote. Very different to the shouts of "NOOOO!" during the Apple event where
they had Bill Gates call in, and IE was made the default browser.

I was kind of expecting them to sneakily pull a Microsoft surface out.

Pity there was no "it's road trip" fudged demo. Watching that makes me laugh
every time.

------
MikusR
They announced a Samsung Galaxy Note Pro 12.2"

~~~
Jedd
My initial thought precisely.

    
    
      Samsung Note Pro :  12.2" , 2560 x 1600
      Apple iPad Pro   :  12.9" , 2732 x 2048
    

So, about 15mm longer in the diagonal, and a higher resolution.

I have a Sammy Note Pro 12.2 - purchased with the vague intent of not needing
to take a laptop with me on some work outings. Consequently I picked up an
integrated keyboard / cover (the custom Logitech model). Combined they bring
me very close to the weight of a laptop, but (just like the iPad will) it wins
out on battery life and needing a USB charger rather than a power brick. And
carrying a mouse is optional, though once you use a keyboard, a mouse also
becomes a convenience.

Curiously enough I'd originally expected to not get much use from the stylus /
digitiser, but it's become one of the more compelling features of the thing.

Nonetheless it's a heavy beast, and I usually end up carrying a laptop too.
The Samsung (just like the innovation <sic> that Apple has only just
announced) has been doing side-by-side and floating application windows for a
while now - but even so, painful to do anything productive on it compared to
working on a proper operating system.

------
callesgg
At that size it is balancing close to the edge where computers live.

But my guess is that as long as computers dont have proper touch interfaces
tablets will be considered to have a different use senario.

It is hard to lift up my computer on the buss and look at a video or browse
the web in a somewhat comfortable way.

~~~
overgryphon
Touch laptops already exist.

~~~
callesgg
I was talking about interfaces in the software.

------
dharma1
An iPad Pro that runs both OSX and iOS, or at least iOS apps inside OSX would
be more interesting

------
Calvein
Any indication if Apple is going to support pointer events[1] now since there
is a stylus ?

[1]: [http://caniuse.com/#feat=pointer](http://caniuse.com/#feat=pointer)

------
joshmn
I love my Nexus-series tablets. I'm a ruby guy, so I have a Macbook (and a
hackintosh); if they were to release a Surface killer, I would be in line.

Kind of disappointing.

------
synthmeat
Depending on stylus input quality (both hardware and software, as well as
screen), this might destroy Wacom's bottom line. Destroy? Annihilate.

------
mjsweet
From the iPad Pro landing page:

The New Smart Keyboard for iPad Pro The only thing we didn't reinvent was the
alphabet.

A little shot across Google's bow?

------
gadrfgaesgysd
Pencil. Jobs is spinning in his grave.

Edit: 99 dollars !!

~~~
hullo
I like to joke too, but not really, if you're serious - Jobs always hated
things until he could claim that Apple reinvented them. Even Gruber was making
fun of it yesterday. [http://daringfireball.net/linked/2015/09/08/gizmodo-
netflix](http://daringfireball.net/linked/2015/09/08/gizmodo-netflix)

In any case what Jobs meant was that the companies that were putting out
devices that required a stylus to operate correctly were doing it wrong, and
that's been proven pretty extensively by the kind of touch interaction that
the iPhone popularized.

Specifically: the new iPad Pro works just fine with touch, but you also have
an option of an Apple-sourced stylus for more intricate work.

~~~
dragonwriter
> In any case what Jobs meant was that the companies that were putting out
> devices that required a stylus to operate correctly were doing it wrong,

Perhaps in the original iPhone announcement, but Jobs kept repeating anti-
stylus lines long after that, when the only current major products with stylus
that they could have been referencing were multitouch devices with styluses
included but not required.

Just like anything other than the original iPhone (or iPad!) size, everyone in
the market doing it was wrong -- until Apple decided they needed to do it,
too.

------
pearjuice
>It's like we said on the iPad, if you see a stylus, they blew it.

>In multitasking, if you see a task manager... they blew it.

>Users shouldn't ever have to think about it.

Steve Jobs, 2010[0]

[0] [http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/08/jobs-if-you-see-a-
stylus-...](http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/08/jobs-if-you-see-a-stylus-or-a-
task-manager-they-blew-it/)

~~~
Watabou
I think as we've seen on Surfaces and on many other tablets, styluses can be
pretty useful for pro-sumers.

So why not allow Apple to eat their own words and create a well-designed easy
to use, functional stylus? The only downside here is it's $50 too expensive.

On your second point, where do you see a task manager? You can only see apps
when bringing up multitasking in iOS 9. There is no "task manager" where you
have a list of running processes with CPU percentages and everything.

And since iOS 9 handles running apps by itself, users don't have to close out
any apps so they really don't "ever have to think about it".

------
Artistry121
Does it have 3D or Force Touch?

~~~
tetraodonpuffer
if it had I would think they'd have said something, I wouldn't be surprised if
it was only for the pen for now, it might also not be possible to be as
precise when it comes to finger pressure detection on a larger screen compared
to a smartphone

------
esolyt
Unfortunately the keyboard seems similar to the keyboard on the New Macbook.

------
gcb0
still runs ios? so it's not a surface pro killer, but a mere ipad RT?

~~~
zan3
It's hard to kill something that's already dead

~~~
Dolores12
why would you steal keyboard from something that is already dead?

------
mladenkovacevic
Any word on how many levels of pressure sensitivity the pencil thing has?

------
a3n
Please don't complain about the next vim vs emacs debate. :)

------
Grazester
They are saying all this and not saying how much Ram it has.

~~~
Grazester
Seems like its only 2 gig. They touted the ability to edit video on this in
relation to its CPU/GPU prowess but fail to mention the all important ram.
This isn't editing anything but a 1 minutes HD video with 2 gigs of ram.

------
exabrial
Gigabit Ethernet Port? USB or thunderbolt ports? NFC?

------
nso95
No mouse or trackpad? Really? I'm supposed to awkwardly and dangerously
contort my wrist every time I want to click on something?

------
kefka
Look at the bright side: in a few years, Apple users might be able to run
multiple programs... at the same time!*

* Like Windows and Linux.

------
Zak
I want that screen in a laptop.

------
cryptoz
"We can have both Word and Excel on the screen at the same time!" \- Apple,
2015.

These Apple keynotes can be pretty funny.

~~~
danso
I'm hoping that was deliberate phrasing...because it would reflect the
(correct, IMO) opinion that Apple's office suite isn't a replacement for MS
Office, and that that opinion is agreed upon internally.

That said, it'd be fun to hear from a Apple employee...do they frequently use
iWork for intraoffice documents?

~~~
sbuccini
iWork is strongly encouraged, but they'll equip you with Microsoft Office if
it's essential for your job.

At least in my department, there was one piece of software you could never
use: Powerpoint. You MUST use Keynote for any internal presentation. If you
even say the word "Powerpoint" around the wrong person, you'll get some nasty
looks.

~~~
X-Istence
Keynote has always worked much better for me, and has allowed me to make
professional looking presentations fasters.

------
zxcvcxz
I don't want it unless it has an exposed CLI without jail breaking.

~~~
geofft
What do you want the CLI to do? It's pretty fundamental to the iOS model (and
the Android one) that apps are isolated from each other, so you certainly
_could_ have a CLI app that does stuff (ssh, git, vi?) within its own home
directory, but can't interact with the rest of the system.

In fact there are Android apps that do this. It's harder on iOS because you
don't get fork(), but if someone wanted to try super hard, you could make all
the apps run as threads within the same process.

If you want a _root shell_ without jailbreaking, that's almost contradictory.

~~~
bcoates
busybox + filesystem access + a way to raise events for other applications
(Android intents equivalent) + a way to install CLI tools with CLI-appropriate
sandboxing (python, for example) would be incredibly useful. Done right it'd
be the last thing needed to really obsolete pre-mobile OSes. You wouldn't have
to abandon the security model.

~~~
geofft
Hearty +1 from me, then, but I'm pretty sure you can do this as a standalone
app on the App Store without needing Apple to give you anything. You'd
basically be running busybox on a bizarro version of a unikernel / rump kernel
(or, alternatively, a bizarro version of User-Mode Linux).

------
ebbv
Predicting now price of $1k or higher.

Also the press is absolutely going to hammer Apple for copying the Surface Pro
(even down to the name.)

EDIT:

Ended up a bit high for the base price, $800. But add on any additional
storage/LTE capability and you're at $1k. So I was damn close.

~~~
revscat
$799 for 32GB model.

~~~
fname
\+ the pencil @ $99 and the smart keyboard at $169. > $1k for the entry level
model to be comparable with the Surface Pro 3 at ~$930 (which starts at 64GB,
btw).

~~~
dangrossman
It seems more comparable to the Surface 3 ($499) than Surface Pro 3. The "Pro"
moniker doesn't buy you a laptop replacement with Apple like it does with
Microsoft.

------
notNow
It's official people, Apple has jumped the shark and it's getting rougher and
rougher for them from now on.

------
chrisseldo
see you later surface

------
omarchowdhury
Hooray.

