
I stood up to my boss, then he got promoted - firefoxd
https://idiallo.com/blog/become-an-executive-one-promotion-at-a-time
======
refurb
A few years back I got a new manager and this was her first people manager
role. She was awful. Micromanaged about useless things, bother you at odd
hours for not very important topics. Her whole team would usually just sit
around and say “I can’t believe how bad she is.”

I got a feedback request from her boss, so I listed 3 things she could do
better. Pretty sure her boss wouldn’t follow up.

Had my 1-on-1 with her and she asked “Any feedback?”. I thought for a second,
then just went “what the hell, let’s do it”, and spent the next 10 minutes
telling her all the things she does wrong.

She was incredibly thankful for the feedback as no one else was willing to
give her direct feedback.

She didn’t change overnight, but we had an absolutely great relationship after
that. If I didn’t like something she did, I told her right away.

I even blew up at her about a year later because she kept cutting me off on a
big presentation. She apologized and it never happened again.

It was a gamble, but it paid off.

~~~
duxup
Ages ago I was a crappy manager at a crappy job and honestly too young to
manage myself even.

It was one of those places where managers saw themselves as little hall
monitors or police looking at what people had on their desk and I'm ashamed to
say I played along.

So one day I'm talking to this guy who was fed up and labeled a problem and he
says something like:

"Does any of this even matter, do we do a better job because of it or do any
of us get paid more?"

Everyone complained bickered about the rules, but nobody has said it like
that...I didn't have an answer.

I suddenly realized, yeah this is all just pointless aggravation for everyone.
So I quit enforcing dumb rules and we all had a better time... the managers
above me talked about these rules and sent out all sorts of emails and
directives to enforce them, and somehow me not doing it wasn't even noticed.

The place didn't get any better, but at least if you were on my team you
didn't get hassled about stupid things.

~~~
option_greek
It's like tragedy of commons for management. The manager gets nothing by
enforcing corporate rules on his team. But not enforcing them usually doesn't
cost them anything while improving team morale, good will and in most cases
retention, productivity.

I see many managers strictly follow up on logging leaves or restricting work
from homes or enforcing release deadlines as if it personally costs them
something while usually enforcement is just discretionary. The managers who
have figured this out usually have happier teams.

~~~
number6
Sounds like mismanagement in the higher echelon. The team leader should lead
up the chain to ensure deadlines are realistic and hindering restrictions are
dealt with.

How does he do this? By complying with corporate rules to show good faith and
intervene when necessary.

It's also important that he understands the rules and communicates them to the
team.

The team manager should be on good terms with upper management and the team.

This is hard and requires skill.

------
codingdave
The lesson is that going over your bosses head and complaining higher up the
chain is not seen as initiative. It is seen as a communication failure. If
your boss is bad at their job, you are still supposed to be able to
communicate with them, work with them, and get problems resolved. If you hold
back from talking to your boss, build up grudges, then launch them uphill....
even if your facts are correct, you have just become a problem.

On the other hand, if you had been having ongoing discussions with your boss
so everything was out on the table, and just weren't getting anywhere with
your boss, then you could mutually escalate it in a productive way, working
together to request some higher-level assistance.

Working well with people is often more important than being right. Because a
group of people who work well together will work mutually find the correct
answers, using everyone's strengths, and helping each other grow in the
process.

~~~
FussyZeus
It feels like this comment and the other comments in this thread are all
dancing around the same issue: The problem is incompetent people getting ahold
of power in an organization. _How_ that comes to pass makes little difference:
maybe they have personal connections to leadership, maybe they just got lucky
and failed upward, whatever it might be: as soon as leadership fails in their
jobs in this way, i.e. promoting the incompetent, then the company is already
dead.

These people are like a cancer, and just like a cancer, as their influence
grows and their power grows, the patient, the business, suffers. Sometimes
businesses can last years, decades, with a number of these tumors if they're
controlled, or if the business is just so healthy that it can take the strain
they put upon it. But in my mind, as soon as competence takes a back seat to
who you know, as soon as that line is crossed by any member of the company
leadership, then that's the end. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of
when.

And this one I don't know how to solve. Were I a C level executive in a
company, I'd constantly have my eyes out for this kind of shit, and excise it
as soon as I could. But it seems most C-levels don't care all that much. Maybe
I wouldn't if I was at that level.

~~~
WalterBright
The trouble is, everyone thinks their boss is incompetent.

~~~
brokenmachine
I don't.

Our upper management is incompetent because they are so removed from what we
actually do, and show no interest in learning about it.

But my immediate manager is very far from incompetent.

~~~
User23
This is universally true of all upper management. See the SNAFU principle[1]

[1]
[http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/s/SNAFUprinciple.html](http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/s/SNAFUprinciple.html)

------
ScottFree
> I don't know if there is a lesson here. But if you are bad at your job, it
> pays to have good connections.

The lesson here is that companies are social entities, not technical ones.
Relationships matter more than profit. If you're going to play the "game of
thrones" as it were, learn the rules first.

~~~
bsder
> If you're going to play the "game of thrones" as it were, learn the rules
> first.

Agreed. Or decide to not play. And just leave to a different job.

One thing though that I see _far_ too commonly is that engineers think that
people in power "don't know or care" as opposed to "don't want to know or
care" or "know damn well and want it this way". People in power may not be
geniuses, but they likely aren't incompetent either. They probably have a
fairly solid level of political skill or they wouldn't have gotten to that
level.

Start from the assumption that things are shitty for a reason or you are going
to miss something important.

~~~
internet_user
does "decide to not play" ever worked out well? I have never seen it.

~~~
minblaster
Get financial independence and escape the need to kowtow to those who don’t
have your interests in mind.

Tech is one of the few industries where this is possible fast.

[https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-
si...](https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-
behind-early-retirement)

------
lmilcin
This is completely typical story. I worked at a bunch of companies and had a
chance observing this over and over again.

The truth is that life is not fair.

You and your manager were playing a different game. While you were spending
your time and resources trying to do good for your company and to get better
at doing that, your manager was spending time scheming in his own interest and
also getting better at it.

He beat you with experience. You were spending your time in Jira and IDE while
he was building up his own image, perfecting ways to shift blame and building
connections.

And you know what? It is fine. Just ask yourself, "would I want to be that
person?"

~~~
crimsonalucard
My answer is no.

I have a deep lack of respect and huge hatred for these types of ass holes. If
I became this type of person I would hate myself.

However, you are right in the fact that many people are like this exist and
life is not fair. My hatred is just a personal preference. I can see a lot of
people answering your question with a yes... which says a lot about people in
general. Most people are ass holes and that's life.

~~~
BLKNSLVR
> Most people are ass holes and that's life

Whilst I tend to agree with this "between the lines" as it were, it's not an
attitude I can healthily recommend. Re-shape it to "most people are trying to
get ahead and that's life" is a much more helpful way of looking at various
situations, and makes human behavior much easier to understand and predict.

You may also find that it reflects back on you some.

------
professorTuring
I read it all. Mistakes were made due to inexperience. Lessons should have
been learnt. Wiser should he be by now.

Being aware of enterprise politics and learning how to play them will give you
the opportunity to really impact the business.

Never be the guy who says:

1\. "nobody does this in the enterprise"

2\. "we are doing all of this wrong"

3\. "we need to start from the beginning"

4\. "my manager is wrong"

Whispers and grabbing coffees with people are much better weapons than being
the one that always brings the harsh truth into the meetings.

Beware: pointing fingers to a colleague or your manager to upper management is
telling them that they are not making their job good enough, they are not
noticing things, and since they tend not to fail and to notice everything, the
failure must be you.

~~~
mancerayder
>2 "we are doing all of this wrong"

I wouldn't put that so boldly, as I've done that many times and so far have
had a relatively successful career as a consultant but also full timer
(including manager). Admittedly, it made people very skeptical initially and
made the first months less pleasurable, including ruffling feathers. Longer
term, somehow that approach has been fairly rewarding.

However I'm sure there's a better way. I'm just the inherently direct type.

~~~
professorTuring
I agree with you, and I've done that approach, but it is really more painful
and it only works if later on you are considered a Guru (by them, not by you),
hard worker and a go-to guy who always helps. And it takes longer to work.

The subtle way is less painful and you begin with the right foot.

------
jrochkind1
> Other departments rose, the company changed its business model and was
> bought for 1.1 billion dollars by a private firm....

> They were not fired. They were promoted. The manager is now the Vice
> President. The lead now leads in the most profitable department. The old VP
> is now Chief Product Officer....

> But if you are bad at your job, it pays to have good connections.

Were they bad at their jobs? Maybe their job wasn't actually doing good work.
It was getting the company purchased for 1.1 billion dollars.

Not the company I want to work at either where that's your job, but it's
apparently a lot of the world.

Once I understood this, it made a lot of organizational behavior make more
sense to me. It didn't make me _like_ it. But most organizations aren't
actually oriented around doing quality work (of _any_ kind of work, internal
or external). That is not the job anyone is actually set up to do or
incentivized to do. And I'm not totally sure they'd succeed as organizations
if they were, that's not the way the world is set up, apparently. Yes, I am
having some cynicism problems.

------
pointyfence
In preparation for their first lousy boss (I hope that I'm not it), I advise
my less experienced reports to first think hard on what's important to them
about their job before acting. Since the organization might not be working
from their view of what's fair or rational, they should plan around some best
and worst case scenarios of acting on that belief.

For instance, if working at that company in a particular position is the most
important thing to you, then standing up to your bosses is a bad tactic. They
could clip your wings or worse. Or if the pay is the most important thing to
you but you can get that pay somewhere else, then you should probably leave on
good terms for another job. I've seen a lot of people put themselves through
unnecessary drama because they just reacted.

In my case, I find bad bosses to be intellectually and emotionally offensive.
So, I will work the system to either see if they can be better or manage them
out. This is a _terrible_ way to manage your career if you care about job
security.

But I plan accordingly. I had to build up my savings, create a strong internal
network of people across departments with similar values, deliver business
results to build credibility with more senior managers and execs, etc. And
most importantly, recognize that I could lose and be ok with it. There are
some real downsides, but it works for who I am.

I know folks here are beating up the author for being naive or whatever, but I
respect people who put skin in the game for what they believe is right, trying
to build a better environment, and helping people that they care about.

------
kcorbitt
Once a company gets past ~20 employees the CEO can't evaluate employee
competence directly and has to rely on proxies.

In sufficiently large companies, gaming these proxies gets you promoted faster
than doing great work. This is one reason big incumbents eventually fail.

~~~
crimsonalucard
I propose required anonymous 3 month evaluations from all team members to be
evaluated by a department that is unbiased.

Maybe even a computing system that raises alarms when a score falls too low to
prevent corruption.

You gotta balance this right with more checks and balances though as you don't
want employees overpowering management either. It's a complicated thing.

Some managers have

------
Vysero
The lesson is:

Next time your favorite manager and tech lead quit the company, ask them why.

~~~
tra3
No kidding, after reading about all the antics, I forgot how the story
started. That should've been a huge red flag.

~~~
woadwarrior01
This has always been a rule that I’ve followed throughout my working career.
Whenever someone leaves or is fired, invite them for a coffee or a drink and
listen to their side of the story.

There’s this Latin legal maxim that I learnt from my mum when I was a child,
and have always remembered ever since: “Audi alteram partem”[1] which roughly
translates to the same.

[1]:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_alteram_partem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_alteram_partem)

------
privateSFacct
A bit of a different angle on this.

A companies may value folks in non-management roles who:

* Do what they are asked to

* Don't cause problems

* Solve their own problems

* Make the boss look good?

Note that being right on technical matters may not be on this list! Sometimes
the hero's would be great managers - but if they are not manager's, all that
good energy may be wasted or a negative from a companies view.

I've had this (unfortunate) experience and learned from it! I really did have
the capacity to do all this great stuff. But not in that position.

Some quick suggestions.

* Provide feedback if asked, but get on with things if its not adopted (don't make business personal if you can help it)

* Make some of your own suggestions in areas the boss isn't addressing. That can look a lot like good initiative.

* If you have options take them, don't hang around too long!

* If you don't have good options outside of your current position - check to see if you are overestimating your skill etc.

* Ask yourself - will my pattern of behavior, ignoring the specific technical details, result in others (managers / co-workers) interested in working for me?

* If you want to fight the product fights / set direction - become a manager!

You generally can do this by a) getting some cert / education somewhere AND b)
switching jobs OR telling your boss you'd like to become a manager and get
them to describe the pathway needed - then check if the timeline they share +
1 year is reasonable.

If you become a manager make sure you can efficiently write memos and can
write reasonably well.

If that doesn't work and you are really great - start consulting or start your
own shop.

------
yibg
I've been in a similar situation. Very well liked and popular at the company,
including with the founders. Often gets praised in public and is the go to
person from many employees when they want advice or just to gripe. Saw
somethings at the company that I thought weren't good, and most of the
employees complained about to me as well. I thought I had some influence with
the powers that be, and so did many of the other folks (e.g. I was encouraged
to speak up because I had influence). So I did, quietly and privately at
first, and a little louder as time went on. Everything I did was completely
ineffective. I learned that public praise and apparent influence is very
superficial, and evaporates when it comes to anything deep rooted.

------
psweber
I've been this person a few times, so I sympathize while seeing all the
mistakes they made.

Some people have no problem with office politics. Some people don't notice or
seem unaffected by it. I have a hero complex (or a sense of ethics if you want
to be generous), and I can't be a full time employee anymore. Freelance work
helps me keep boundaries in my work.

~~~
crimsonalucard
I'm having this problem too. It's hard for me to stay silent. I tell my
friends about the things I do or say and they tell me that I'm just giving
away all my intentions and political moves.

I don't manipulate people and I'm told I'm extremely straightforward. I'm not
a hero though but when politics affects me like it always inevitably does, I
don't play the game, I'm emotionally unable to.

~~~
goodcanadian
Refusing to play politics is also a political strategy. It won't work in every
situation. Sometimes, being blunt will work out very badly, but sometimes your
candor will be respected and your opinion will be sought out because of it.
Refusing to play the game can put you in a position above the fray.

You won't be promoted to management, but if that is not your goal, it may not
matter.

~~~
crimsonalucard
This is true. I've been in this type of situation before but I always
attributed to luck rather then a political strategy.

I'm thinking a combination of bluntness and deception is the best middle
ground.

------
bitL
Everybody in non-tech companies should realize they are viewed as stupid ants
doing all the work while another class rules them with different governance
they have no chance to penetrate.

The main issue of our industry is that it is now transforming from tech-
friendly into the "same old" approach of other industries, including all
FAANGs. There is no space for apolitical geniuses any longer.

~~~
ncmncm
Not at big companies. But there are lots of smaller ones.

------
blisterpeanuts
This blog was painful to read because it hits home on several points. I've
been in the working world since the mid-1980s and have seen this type of
scenario several times. It's unfortunate, it's frustrating, but there's
usually nothing you can do about incompetent management except simply to
leave.

Fortunately, technology is a good profession and there are always choices.
I've learned over the years not to fight City Hall; if you have no power,
you're just a faint buzzing in their ears. Those who are busy sucking all the
money out of an organization aren't going to just stop because of a lecture
from a technical lead.

Your first duty is to take care of yourself and your family. That may mean
removing yourself from a toxic environment and starting over elsewhere,
possibly for a cut in pay or seniority, but over the long haul you'll likely
be emotionally and professionally better off.

~~~
ncmncm
The only way to get a serious promotion in this field is to change companies.
Start over elsewhere with a boost in pay and seniority, when the getting's
good. The company has absolutely no loyalty to you, so you owe it none.

But individuals do deserve loyalty. Try not to lose touch.

------
james1071
I read this story and found it interesting to notice how the author seemed not
to have any perspective other than his own. He seemed to regard himself as
central to the company, when in reality he was just one of many employees, who
had been hired to do a job. Those hiring him seemed to be interested in the
sale of the company and securing their own positions, which they appear to
have managed well, by running a sham department, that they could present as
being a success.

~~~
haihaibye
The author is suffering from "Bridge over the river Kwai" syndrome - being
wholly concerned about technical implementation while ignoring larger
strategic concerns.

------
epx
The only thing you can do to hurt a bad manager is to quit, depriving him of
your good services. Eventually he will be sacked, but not before you.

------
athiercelin
Nothing gets fixed if you don't say anything, but the odds are always
supporting the fact that this bozo was placed by another top bozo.

The leaders who appreciate this, will go the extra mile to develop trust
and/or open door with ICs but if you aren't 100% sure you have this, it means
you don't.

Bozos excel at social aerodynamism and those who start to like them are to be
worried about just as much. Bozos can even end up on boards, VCs or public
figures. Never assume there are rules, never assume someone is addressing the
obvious problem.

In the end, if you sniff a bozo, pack up and go. That's your only move.

[https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericjackson/2012/01/31/why-
ever...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericjackson/2012/01/31/why-every-
company-needs-a-no-bozo-policy/#26d2e84e11d3)

------
choppaface
This might not be helpful, but it appears the OP struggled for so long because
they were too attached to the project or an unrealistic expectation of growth.
It’s critical to get feedback about your choices and to second-guess your
attachment, if only to have that evidence or perspective available to you.
Without it, it’s highly likely unexpected events carry greater personal risk,
like a re-org causing a lot of distress or even happening unexpectedly at all.
How aligned are you with the business leaders? It’s worth trying to meet
people outside the team on a quarterly basis.

The other sad result here is that the OP chose to fight leveraging a rational
argument versus the buy-in of others. It’s easy to call the other side stupid,
but the reality is you have to convince them of your perspective and not
necessarily that your argument is right. To make matters worse, corporate
structure is fundamentally opposed to threats from below. You can have green
hair and get fired because they only want people with purple hair.

Stories like these suggest (at least to me) that engineers need to work a bit
more to reshape the industry into a gig economy. That means being more open to
changing jobs, supporting portable and open technologies, and also
establishing a more transparent hiring process. There’s a huge gap between
supply and demand for engineers. That gap will be around for a while.
Leveraging that gap should provide a path for preventing stories like these.

~~~
choppaface
To the downvoters: would love to hear stories similar to that of the OP. I
personally have never seen somebody in that situation win without major buy-
in, especially from managers or C-levels. But wouldn’t mind being shown wrong.

------
alexfromapex
All talent should leave these types of companies. Can’t be the VP of anything
if everyone gets tired of your shit, leaves, and the company fails.

------
ljm
> While she was a great lead, we saved the managerial position for someone who
> was more suited for the job. Someone who could talk engineer and business
> all at the same time. Someone who has been groomed for the job.

I'm struggling with this, and I've struggled with it before. What I think
you're saying is that you have an ideal candidate, but they're not enough so
you need to pull in the perfect one from the outside. You don't want to invest
in them instead, which would be cheaper.

"Someone who has been groomed for the job."

Why not train/groom them yourself? You already have the talent and the
potential. That £10k signup bonus could pay for a whole course of training to
get a loyal and well educated leader who already knows the business
intimately.

It's a problem in its own making because a business fails to appreciate the
talent it already has. Which is the same reason why so many people leave for
new jobs, because their talent isn't recognised.

Best way to get some acknowledgment is to get a fresh job offer 50+% above
what you currently get with wild enthusiasm to get you on board.

~~~
fredophile
My impression was that there were two open positions, one for a lead and one
for a manager. The team wanted to promote someone from within to be lead and
look for a new manager because they didn't have a good candidate to promote
from within. The company moved a new manager in from another part of the
company and this manager brought in their choice for lead, displacing the
person that was favored by the team.

------
BLKNSLVR
I stayed too long in a job at a company that was turning / had turned toxic.
It takes that experience to be able to not only recognize it in the future,
but also know to act on it before it goes too far.

The combination of these two statements in the post give me the "chills of
recognition" of a bad situation:

> In a company of a thousand, everyone knew me by name. I've created dozens of
> tools that are still used in the company to this day.

> I was assuming a position of leadership, I was very popular, yet I had no
> power.

If this is you, you need to evaluate your situation coldly and logically. Why
do you have no power? You're either delusional about your level of influence
and utility within the company, or the company is a boys club (I believe the
term 'lifestyle company' was used to describe a previous place of employment
of mine) and you're not a member.

And fundamentally, do your "network of influence" research before you tattle
on ANYONE. That's a primary school lesson.

------
fred_is_fred
This is a tough lesson for engineers to learn, but whether you are right or
not doesn't even really matter, it's the relationships and how you present it.
I cringed when I ready about going over your manager's head in front of all
the other managers. Life at work is not a code review where everyone is equal
and you get to +1 and -1 everyone's ideas.

~~~
loopz
Should be a minor problem, unless the leaders are psychopaths, which they
obviously were in the story so worthless of any effort.

~~~
fred_is_fred
If you have to take every problem to a VP or council of managers that means
that you are ineffective and unable to sway anyone with your ideas. If the
site is truly down like he said and his manager won't fix it, he should let
his manager take the fall after raising it. Nobody thanks the messenger in a
situation like this.

~~~
loopz
Most problem and change requests should not require manager involvement at
all. In practice though, an org tend to optimize for top-brass to micromanage
more and more (see: Scrum and "Agile"). You will be told to solve the issues,
while higher-ups make all the shots, unwittingly causing some long-term
trouble. If you correctly identify gaps and skillfully tell the right
managers, they will be very glad for you pointing out risks and suggestions.
Just don't expect too much at once and play the long-term game.

------
deedubaya
Going over your boss’s head won’t end well because of misaligned incentives.

Your boss’s boss is responsible for the boss. Responsible for any failures and
any successes. Acting on a failure you reported would be a black mark on their
report card. That’s not gonna happen.

Few managers care about doing the right thing — that’s why they’re in
politics... ahem....management.

------
mdip
Whew, I've seen this one first- and second-hand a few times.

I worked for a global multi-national for around 17 years, through a few
acquisitions, and through a 6-9 month lay-off cadence that often came with
overall restructuring and rotating/changing managers. I remember one
individual, in particular, we'll call him "Bob". This guy's ignorance was
rivaled only by his arrogance. Bob ended up taking over the team that myself
and a coworker (who I shared an office with) and almost immediately started
causing grief. A series of boneheaded, and very expensive decisions were made
which effectively eliminated the department at the next lay-off cycle. Somehow
the Bob not only survives another set of layoffs, he gets promoted and is now
in my direct reporting chain. Almost immediately, any interdepartmental
communication was forbidden (and I'm talking "Database Admins" not being
allowed to e-mail "Unix sysadmins"), and similarly, much of his department
started crumbling. I got out quick and my coworker, Greg (not really), entered
a new level of hell.

Though my department changed, my location didn't, and I still worked with Greg
75% of the time. Greg felt his wrath, daily and I got a bit of it "by splash".
Then Greg saw an opportunity -- he was asked to discuss a project with the
CIO, our department Director and VP. Greg didn't hesitate to bring up Bob[0].
It went over like a lead baloon; holy cow, the whole mood in the room changed.
Something we hadn't known -- Bob hung out with a lot of folks in the office
outside of work. He worked at the main office, which was much larger and in a
different time zone than us and our Director. The VP in the room was also from
the main office. Shortly after the meeting, he was informed by his boss that
she had spent the last hour "begging for them to not fire [coworker]". Yep.
They were all friends.

Well, my story has a bit of an uglier ending, but not one that isn't deserved.
The struggling company was purchased by a competitor and the CIO was replaced.
Several layers were added above Bob. The new headquarters was in a city far
enough away that they had their own networks, isolated from the old guard.
Incredibly, Bob started making in-roads well before the acquisition was
complete and had already begun trying to sully the reputations of people he
considered "enemies". One of those people was Greg.

Now, Greg had a few people who didn't like him. He was very cut-and-dry,
blunt, but he was an "attack the idea, not the person" kind of guy and if you
understood that, you got along well with him. He was/is crazy smart,
articulate and has a personality of the kind that you want to get behind
because you know he's going to be doing something great. And he'd slept at the
new office the entirety of the previous week making sure that the
infrastructure side of things went off without a hitch.

We're in a 9-person meeting "war-room" for the acquisition, and the CIO walks
in -- I throw him a (sadly, over-prepared question) about REST and our (non-
existent) service infrastructure and he mentioned something about Clojure. My
coworker is introduced[1] him and he said "So, what's the deal with Bob? ...".
He attacked the person. And went on for 15 minutes, deadpan, facts-only,
listing every failure and its inevitable origin: a decision Bob forced down
the department's throat. I watched the new CIO get more and more disgusted --
he was a rare beast -- a C-level at a multi-national who understood systems
and didn't have a skillset that was a decade out-of-date[2]. The CIO politely
excused himself from the room, which was completely silent at this point save
for my coworker and remained that way for a solid minute after the guy left
the room[3]. Greg had gotten a little loud.

Then we remembered that we were there to watch him address the IT department
on the big screen in the room[4]. Someone in tech announced that things would
be getting started about 5 minutes late. They started 15-minutes late. Shortly
after introducing himself, the CIO apologized and said he had to take care of
a "personnel issue" that required a little more time than he had expected. The
door opened and our (new) department VP walked in, "[CIO] just got off the
phone with HR and Bob. He was informed his services are no longer needed."
Greg was on his feet and the room erupted. For literally months after that
happened, people from the "old company" would call Greg (remote office) to
thank him. What was amazing to me was that literally everyone except for 3
people in IT management and leadership _knew this guy was at fault_ and yet he
continued to increase in his ability to cause problems. It turned out that the
prior week had been spent by the new CIO trying to wrap his head around the
boneheaded architectural decisions he was inheriting. All of these decisions
had one name behind them and that guy had been with the company for 10 years!

[0] I don't recommend it. This guy, though, had stones and if given the
opportunity to address the issue with someone higher on the chain, it trumped
any fears of him losing the job. "If they're not going to trust me to tell the
truth when it's hard to hear, they're not someone I can morally work for." He
had brought it up to every single person from above him up to the CIO, why not
the CIO?

[1] That's an understatement. He was one of the major reasons infrastructure
integration happened at all. The CIO looked at him like he was some mad
genius.

[2] I recognized the same on the development side when his Clojure response,
despite not being a choice I would have made (unfamiliarity), was backed up
with an argument that wasn't marketing or otherwise buzz-wordy.

[3] Someone started with a "So......" at some point, I'm sure.

[4] The company had a studio -- really cool -- and complete stage/audience
room. We could have gone, and some did, but we were "war rooming" for the past
week and a few of us weren't sure if it was just the left-overs from lunch
that had stunk up the place.

~~~
peteradio
That would have been incredible to witness.

~~~
mdip
So incredible. It still feels like it happened to somebody else. While writing
that, yesterday, I realized that I was a participant in the whole situation
most of the time. Not the first CIO meeting; George was downright crazy for
doing that, but he disagrees with me on that. In that second CIO meeting, I
contributed a few points of my own; but really, Greg had the stones to speak
up -- I wouldn't have had he not gotten the ball rolling, so my contribution
isn't something I really remember much of.

I'm pretty sure I got the quote from the new director perfectly, though -- it
was a moment in my life where I felt like I had witnessed "the right decision
being made, even though it was tough to make" along with a whole mess of
vindication for the tens of times I had butted heads with Bob. Someone looking
skeptically might attribute some form of good will toward Bob. That's cool and
I hope he's all right. He had family and friends; I'm sure someone found him
to delightful. We never met the great Dad that he might be. We got stuck with
laser-focused pure-rage.

My favorite Greg, not Bob, story, though is the reason he's among my best
friends years after that job. I had started in Desktop Support at a company
that was 80% VT-something-or-other _terminals_ in 1997[0]. Greg started a
month after me, and shared my work-aholic tendencies[1]. The new VP of our new
IT department, who's name is _not_ Wesley, but who was one you could count on
to correct you if you didn't use his full, given name, came to our office. We
were HQ#2 back then.

To set the stage, he picked a 25-person conference room for all ... 70-or-so?
of us, for an hour-long mandatory meeting[2]. He's sitting with his butt
leaning against the edge of a whiteboard, standing in the corner, wearing
Birkenstock sandals and socks (nothing against Birks; owned 6 pairs in my
life), addressing the tightly packed, mostly standing group. Greg is sitting
at the oval table in the center. Before Wesley starts talking, it's obvious,
he's going for a certain look. It wasn't hipster (AFAIK, too early). Then he
started, trying to communicate ... something ... what ... the fsck ... are
these words ...? Everyone in the room has a look on their face that resembles
some form of straining. He mis-used words, he made new words made out of
combinations of obscure words. Poly-isomorphic was used twice among several
words that "I don't think it means what you think it means".

Greg told me about a habit he had when people drone on and on. He starts
counting those "annoying words", "uh's" and "um's", "you know's" and such and
keeps score. It's a curse. I can't help but do the exact same thing[3]. I had
to stop when the Migraine hit. Greg was in rapt attention, awkwardly, the only
one in the room feigning interest.

Q&A comes up and I ask about our mess-of-an-e-mail[4] platform, and he
responds "Netscape"-something-or-other. Greg speaks up and asks if we had
evaluated GroupWise, Exchange or another option[5], carefully elevating his
vocabulary to sound "intelligent, but not douche-y" and mid-sentence he
pauses, blinks, and says "...I'm sorry, ... did you want me to fluff you?"

Now, it's hard to convey how that was delivered without the accompanying
voice. Greg's voice is right in the middle; neither booming nor weak. I'd
guess he sings around a Tenor range. He delivered this in with the same tone a
server at a restaurant, might. There a desire to help in his tone, along with
a tinge of innocence, and empathy: "Oh, that's my fault, I forgot to hold the
mushrooms for you. Let me just run back and fix that." The words were at a
total disconnect with the delivery. He delivered a slap in the face that you
feel obligated to tip him for.

It sucked the air out of the room. Wesley lets out an uncomfortable laugh and
says, and in his first display of humanity, says "No, no, ..." and the room
erupts in laughter. It's 55-minutes into this meeting. Many of the
participants in the room are middle-aged very-overweight men who are visibly
wet with sweat because it's mid-summer and you _don 't jam that many people
into a conference room for an hour_. The collective laughter was like a bomb
going off; people left cubicles out of concern to see what the noise was.

Greg was early 20s, I was 19, we were the youngest _in the department_ by at
least 5 years, and younger than most by 15. Here's this "equivalent to the
cashier" spanking the district manager in front of his entire team on his _day
of introduction._ And he was saying exactly what everyone in that room was
thinking. _Stones_ on this guy[6].

Funny thing is, for the most part, it became a story and that's it. Our,
collective, manager told him "That was awesome" and he never took any heat for
it. I'm guessing Wesley was a little embarrassed and just let it go. He stuck
around for another year-and-a-half until the first acquisition or-so, and
occasionally worked on things with Greg, but it was never brought up between
them. Though it wasn't a Hollywood-style "and Wesley had a new found respect
for Greg" ... I think Wesley realized, rightly, that Greg was an "equivalent
to a cashier" at the time and wouldn't be competing for his job before he was
long gone.

[0] That was flipped in 6 months, but the most used app was a $100 product we
had to install to handle whatever VT-weird escape sequences this thing used to
display colors and accept input.

[1] My dad is a happily retired small business owner with a fierce work-ethic.
Some would say workaholic. I was his son. He was an awesome Dad growing up,
and is an awesome Dad, now (he doesn't read HN).

[2] I'm bitching, but he brought a fountain coke machine with him for
permanent installation on the IT floor only, so we weren't unhappy. Suck it,
Google! :)

[3] My apologies if the curse strikes you, now. :(

[4] Lotus CC:Mail - I became an expert in recovering people's inboxes. It was
a fantastic piece of software. You could read mountains of e-mail provided you
had an IT guy near by who could kill a day helping you de-corrupt your inbox
file. It's like your _whole inbox_ was just that _.pst_ file. Still gives me
nightmares

[5] I want to say Greg was leaning the lines of postfix/a unix/open-source
option, or a straight up Microsoft Exchange buy into the Borg scenario (he was
an admirer of Bill Gates back when that was frowned upon /s).

[6] Apologies for the graphic reference ... no better way to describe. It's
part bravery. And were it anyone else I'd say "It's a little bit of stupid
mixed in" but no, _with rare exception_ this guy knew those were the right
words at that time and knew _full well_ he might be forced to walk out of the
building (at least, in the early days). I think I've heard him speak a
profanity twice, all placed _very_ intentionally to make a point, and used as
though they were high explosives to be used in the most dire of situations.

------
peglasaurus
I'd be someone who would have responded to the first HN comment about his
workplace as "its a toxic environment, pack your parachute and get out."

I think life is too short to waste it sharing with toxic people. You are just
withholding it from the good people. Tolerating political nonsense is a
particular kind of fun or challenge for awhile but its really just an
opportunity cost in the long term. Be clear about what you see as the benefit
when doing so.

This doesn't mean you run from adversity but it does mean you evaluate
adversity knowing that it still needs an actual benefit that exceeds its very
real cost.

------
jamisteven
Kind of interested in knowing if this was his first job, as there were many,
many mistakes made here. This is simply a case of him not understanding his
role. Went over bosses head without knowing anything about the relationship
between said boss and upper management. Didnt inquire as to why a boss who
"burned a team to the ground" in previous position was promoted to his team to
begin with. Kept trying to come back to the company for social gatherings even
after leaving. Am not sure what the story is here, but I hope he learned some
lessons, plural.

------
jakon89
It's common to promote someone to just get rid of that person :) Sometimes
promoting is just easier that firing.

~~~
aliswe
Failing upwards, as someone here said

------
oarabbus_
Reinforces the idea that managers fail up; engineers fail down.

~~~
anon73044
"Promoted to their level of incompetence" is a phrase I've heard before to
describe this phenomenon.

~~~
ncmncm
There is a whole book.

~~~
cpeterso
The book is _The Peter Principle_ : "In a hierarchy every employee tends to
rise to his level of incompetence."

This leads to Peter's Corollary: "In time, every post tends to be occupied by
an employee who is incompetent to carry out its duties."

The Wikipedia article is a pretty thorough summary of the book:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle)

------
ggm
As somebody who was probably promoted up to or above his Peter Principle
skills, I sympathize. This isn't how maximally efficient places should work.

But having said that, maximally efficient places are heading to being truly
horrible. Taylor time-and-motion and 'sack till it works' is not condusive to
good longterm outcome. It works for something like D Day right up until you
exhaust the pool of new officers. Then you have to go back and try and instill
some motivation in the ones you sidelined hunting for perfection.

------
newshorts
This story is why you need to spend your f __*s carefully. The author care way
too much about his day job. If he’s that passionate he needs to start his own
company.

------
duelingjello
About 2006, I stood up to my boss trying to cajole me into weakening a credit
card processing private network at a big name university. And then I was fired
for refusing to do it immediately when all I asked for was to slow down and
review the changes. Narcissists throw tantrums if they don't always get their
way because they hate not being in complete control. _sigh_

------
je42
I like the inverted pyramid. ;) While not perfect, it is pretty good at
exposing unproductive people.

------
phibz
Ah the follies of ignoring and not having social capital

