

Why we should reconsider manual labor - edw519
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/wealthofnations/archive/2009/07/01/reconsidering-manual-labor.aspx

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timwiseman
I think a more significant distinct is between skilled and unskilled/semi-
skilled rather than between manual labor and office work.

Skilled labor, such as master electricians or certified mechanics, are
generally well paid, often have a decent amount of independent thought in
their work, and are generally hard to replace (and therefore hard to outsource
or layoff). They are also unlikely to be automated any time soon, though it is
possible.

On the other hand, unskilled labor tends to be easy replace and is much more
likely to be automated in the future. For precisely those reasons it often
comes with low pay.

Just as my personal perspective, I could easily support with pride, my
(currently quite young son) if he decided he loved cars and wanted to become a
mechanic, for instance, but I would want him to consider very carefully before
seeing something like being a janitor or factory laborer as anything more than
a way to pay his way through college.

~~~
javanix
Well put.

I would add that there are more similarities between a master mechanic and a
skilled applications/systems programmer than people usually recognize.

Both professions require similar amounts of schooling (Two years at a
tech/vocational school versus four at a university, but I would argue that
there are only about two years worth of CS classes that are _really_ necessary
for programming success), and both deal with large, similarly complex systems
that need to be known equally well for success.

I would even go so far as to argue that the same "type" of mind gravitates to
both professions - differing socioeconomic pressures just nudge people in
different directions.

~~~
geebee
I definitely agree that some of the manual "vocations," such as electrician or
plumber are really great trades, and are ideal careers for a certain
personality type. Some people really need to work with their hands, and just
can't abide a cubicle. I wouldn't deter my kid from these trades either.

That said, I think CS is pretty far from these fields. It's a little hard to
say, because I don't have a background in these vocations, but in some ways I
think they have more in common with nursing or even medicine. There's a
required and tightly enforced educational background, formal licensing, and
apprenticeship, and when you leave, you really are prepared (again, I presume)
for practice.

Truth is, we have no such thing in programming. CS really doesn't prepare you
to be a programmer. While I suppose some things in programming are becoming
standardized, there ultimately is no agreement on fairly basic things. As five
programmers to write a webapp, and I mean a simple, two page, database driven
crud app, and you'll get five _very_ different implementations. There really
is no accepted way of doing things for us, not on the level of a formal
vocation.

Of course, I say this not really knowing. For all I know, electricians
graduate from their apprenticeship, show up a their first job, and figure it
all out for the first time like programmers do.) I sure hope not, though ;)

~~~
javanix
I agree that most of CS is far more freeform than these professions, but I
mentioned systems/applications programmers for a reason.

They need to write their software to behave compatibly with certain system
restraints, and thus don't have quite the freedom afforded to web app
developers and their fairly lax-by-comparison set of browser requirements.

Granted, the similarities only go so far - being a mechanic is far more
diagnostic and enhancing of the underlying system than being a programmer is
(and hence, as you said, probably closer to the medical profession). However,
a mechanic's ability to diagnose issues based on the subtlest of clues seems
fairly close, at least in my experience, to a skilled programmer's ability to
track down a quirky bug - both are based almost entirely on their exhaustive
knowledge of the underlying system. The medical field's underlying system is
biologic rather than mechanical in nature - hence most of the diagnostics have
to be based on generic tests that are variably reliable (at least now, prior
to surely-forthcoming genomic advances in medicine), rather than solely
intuition and experience.

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djb_hackernews
Anecdotal, but I am an unemployed software engineer/ programmer/ whatever. I
picked up some temp labor work for quick cash. Obviously that kind of work has
built in benefits that satisfy the mind and body, but my "colleagues" really
made me question society. From what I saw, manual labor was a sure path to a
life time of degeneration. I've also seen the flip side, which I hope is the
majority, not enough exposure to be certain.

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rufo
Mike Rowe (yes, the Dirty Jobs Mike Rowe) has been talking about this for a
while - he has a pretty interesting TED talk:
[http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.htm...](http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.html)

~~~
quizbiz
Another great TED talk on the subject titled _life lessons through tinkering_

[http://www.ted.com/talks/gever_tulley_s_tinkering_school_in_...](http://www.ted.com/talks/gever_tulley_s_tinkering_school_in_action.html)

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balding_n_tired
1\. It has been a looong time since I read _Being and Time_, but I don't think
that's what Heidegger had in mind.

2\. Could it be that we're on a 35-year, say generational, cycle? It's about
that long since _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_ came out.

3\. Don't underestimate the trades' exposure to the larger economy. In
Washington, DC, where the economy remains relatively stronger, the best
builders stay busy. But I hear it is not so elsewhere, and here a lot of the
less-skilled manual workers are out of work.

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ilyak
I don't want to do anything with my hands, thanks you.

Maybe reconsider robotics?

~~~
jerf
More than "maybe robots". If you're a kid looking at what to specialize in,
maybe just entering college, I'd still say go for the knowledge stuff
(science, programming, etc). In ten, fifteen, twenty years, the idea that
robots will be doing construction, driving, plumbing, sewer cleaning, all
quite plausible. We're a very long way from totally eliminating human labor,
but we're actually starting to see robots being able to do 60%, 80%, 90% of
those jobs starting to come over the horizon. Still not "tomorrow", but as you
plan your life path, keep that in mind.

(If the idea of robots doing construction sounds odd, remember that what we
consider "construction" is currently shaped by what machines can do vs. what
humans are good at. As the machines get better, the nature of construction can
change. This sort of thing: <http://www.physorg.com/news139161727.html> won't
just "replace humans" but change the nature of what's cheap and what's not
when it comes time to decide _what_ to construct. A robot doesn't need to
replace a human's full capabilities to replace their job.)

