
A Dollar Store Backlash Has Begun - DocFeind
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/12/closest-grocery-store-to-me-dollar-store-food-desert-bargain/577777/
======
vraylle
I don't know about other areas, but here in the middle of Oklahoma the Dollar
Generals have been a real positive. There's a lot of rural areas where a
Walmart came in, then folded later. It left a 1-2 hour drive to get buy any
kind of "real" food. The DG stores here have been expanding to include an
actual grocery section, including fresh produce and (limited) fresh meat. More
is available frozen. They have excellent prices on canned goods. Are they as
good as a full grocery store? No, but they're a _lot_ better than the gas
station/convenience store and its endless supply of deep-fried burritos...and
also the only alternative.

~~~
war1025
Here in rural Iowa, Dollar General also has claimed the niche of "less stuff,
but also nearby". You can either drive 5 minutes into town and go to the
Dollar General for most of your basic needs, or you can drive a half hour to
the nearest city with a Walmart / Target / etc.

I really quite like stopping by to grab a quick thing or two. Around here,
there tends to be a local grocery chain in the same vicinity, so generally I'd
pick there for more traditional grocery foods. But ran out of toothpaste or
need a pack of diapers? Dollar General is the place to go.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> You can either drive 5 minutes into town and go to the Dollar General for
> most of your basic needs, or you can drive a half hour to the nearest city
> with a Walmart / Target / etc.

I'm intrigued by these time estimates. Living in a suburb of Santa Cruz (just
south of the Bay Area), the choices are similar. Completely inadequate corner
store (much worse than DG) locally, or drive to a location with real stores.
That drive is a minimum of 15 minutes depending on the store you want.

But I feel like people in beach communities around the Bay Area would struggle
with the idea that they're just as remote as hicks in rural Iowa.

~~~
austincheney
Suburban Texas must be an odd phenomenon then. Kroger has found the key to
dominating a vicinity away from Walmart. They build giant grocery stores about
3 miles away from each other where the Walmarts are more like 8 miles apart
from each other. Then are various other competing stores in the mix as well.

* [https://www.google.com/maps/search/kroger/@32.8956425,-97.18...](https://www.google.com/maps/search/kroger/@32.8956425,-97.1882734,12z)

* [https://www.google.com/maps/search/walmart/@32.8725386,-97.2...](https://www.google.com/maps/search/walmart/@32.8725386,-97.2184857,12z/data=!3m1!4b1)

* [https://www.google.com/maps/search/albertsons/@32.8723824,-9...](https://www.google.com/maps/search/albertsons/@32.8723824,-97.2184854,12z/data=!3m1!4b1)

* [https://www.google.com/maps/search/aldi/@32.8724215,-97.2184...](https://www.google.com/maps/search/aldi/@32.8724215,-97.2184854,12z/data=!3m1!4b1)

A side note to this crowding is that unless you live within quick access to a
freeway on-ramp it often takes about 30 minutes to get to that store 3 miles
away.

~~~
fencepost
There's a location in the town where I grew up with two Jewel (Albertson's)
locations less than a mile apart on the same road. One is a much older store
(early 80s), the other is much newer and was acquired when Dominick's
(Safeway) shut down in the Chicago area.

By keeping both stores they have all the good grocery locations at that end of
town tied up. There's a Mariano's (Kroger) on the opposite side of town and a
Walmart with some groceries a couple miles in another direction, but most
people go to what's right there.

------
pascalxus
You really have to differentiate between the food that's offered at a dollar
store and everything else. I shop at the dollar store for things like shampoo,
deodrant, toothpaste and it's superb deal, not in any way making me poorer. on
the contrary it saves me money. for groceries, you should shop somewhere else,
unless your looking for dog food.

the reason there aren't more grocery stores selling good food is because no
one wants that. Consumers are in charge and they've spoken loud and clear:
consumers prefer processed foods, sodas, chips, things placed in boxes and
plastic. I've even seen parent who boycott schools trying to remove cookies
from the lunch menu. At a certain point, people need to start making good
decisions about what they buy. and yes, you can buy healthy AND cheap. Rolled
oats (aka oatmeal is available for 50c to 1$ per lb, even here in the CA!) .
and that's 22 times cheaper than a meal at McDonalds. Compare => 3 meals at
mcDonalds => 22$ vs Oatmeal 1 lb = 1600 calories which makes it about 1$ per
day. And oatmeal is high in fiber, protein and countless minerals, super low
in saturated fat, extremely low in sodium and sugar. Sure, you'd want to add a
couple of fruits to your basket: there's bananas for 55c per pound!, etc.

I ate oatmeal almost everyday for lunch for a year and it lowered my LDL
cholesterol by 60 points! it's a real cholesterol fighter. And, if you do the
math on everything, you can find great deals in veggies to: potatoes, onions,
Beans, Corn (super highly subsidized), and the occassional costco spinach.

Once we start choosing good foods, stores will have no choice but to start
selling more of that. Let the backlash begin!

~~~
scythe
I love oatmeal and eat loads of it, but we really need to avoid telling
poorly-informed people that the path to cheap nutrition is to eat bland goo.
_You_ might think about it as a rhetorical example, but you need to remember
that people won't remember what you say, only how you make them feel. The
salient imagery in your post is living on unflavored oatmeal, and that's not
appealing to anyone.

~~~
pascalxus
that's a good point. I didn't realize people thought of oatmeal like that. I
really enjoy oatmeal. I put some bananas on it or some pumpkin seeds, or
strawberries or a little bit of honey and the whole thing tastes absolutely
delicious.

~~~
rspeer
This cheap food tastes really great when you put expensive food on top of it!

~~~
coryrc
Small amounts of expensive food is still cheap.

------
anilshanbhag
It's fairly obvious that grocery stores would not want to be in poor
neighborhoods. This article paints it all as segregation / race issue which is
inaccurate where it is really an issue of purchasing power of the community.
While many poor neighborhoods are communities of color - dollar stores have
their origin and largest footprint in rural America which is predominantly
white.

~~~
drb91
> It's fairly obvious that grocery stores would not want to be in poor
> neighborhoods.

Why not, for us clueless people?

~~~
hajile
Why are products more expensive in poor neighborhoods? If there were real
profits to be reaped, certainly stores would be moving in and enjoying high
profit margins rather than leaving.

The answer should lie elsewhere and it does. Cost of doing business in those
neighborhoods is very high. Vandalism and robbery jack up insurance rates.
Companies don't want to deliver there because they don't want the risk, so
they charge more. Shoplifting expenses must be spread across all product
actually sold. If the place offers loans, they must deal with very high rates
of defaults. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. If someone doesn't pay for
that car, you have to repo it, but there's a decent chance it can't be found
or that you now own an unsellable car or that it was messed up, but there's no
way of actually getting any money out of the responsible parties.

Finally, let's say I put a store in a nicer part of town only 15 minutes away.
I get less vandalism and basically zero robbery. I get less shoplifting and
lower insurance rates. I can keep the same profit margins as the guy in the
poor neighborhood and still offer significantly lower prices. Because it's
reasonably close to the poor neighborhood, I even get their business without
all the extra risk. In the loan market, less risky clients means I can charge
less interest and still make the same amount of money and have far less
overhead tracking down people and things.

The real tragedy here is police. Poor neighborhoods and police don't get
along. Police view everyone suspiciously (why wouldn't they when most dead and
injured police show up in those same neighborhoods?). Likewise, the people
living there don't trust the police because the police treat them as criminals
(and like it or not, someone somewhere is always going to make a mistake that
starts this downward spiral). This isn't even a race issue. Police and the
poor have had this relationship going back as far as you can search no matter
the race (or races) involved.

This problem could be fixed with education, but the average criminal and
average police officer both have below average IQs (with it being ruled in the
US that it is perfectly legal to reject police officers who have an IQ that is
"too high"). If everyone in a poor neighborhood were properly educated, it
would cease to be a poor neighborhood in a very short amount of time, but our
education system is only interested in lip service (another problem in
itself).

~~~
dclowd9901
“Cost of doing business in those neighborhoods is very high. Vandalism and
robbery jack up insurance rates.“

Oof. I was with you til this. For a large grocery store chain, the occasional
vandalism/shoplifting incident is nothing. Built into the price, as they say.

The real reason they don’t operate in these areas is because a poor community
spends less money than a rich community. If you have to stretch your floor
space buck, you want to operate 1) in the market gap you work best in and 2)
the area of best fit for that market. A Kroger, if you will, serves middle
class America. Their stock, their prices, their marketing and everything else
they do operates at that market. However you might see a Kroger operating in
an area a bit beneath their target. You won’t ever, however, see a Whole Foods
or Trader Joe’s anywhere near a poorer community.

So Dollar General and the like are filling a previously neglected niche that
used to be filled by small bodegas and mercados.

~~~
hakfoo
But that doesn't mean that a company with the resources of Kroger couldn't
also manage a brand that aimed significantly lower.

In Arizona, there's a local grocery chain (Bashas') that's been around since
before WWII. They have three very distinct brands-- the mainstream brand, a
decidedly lower-class brand with a string Hispanic focus, and a deluxe brand
which seems to target a more foodie, but similarly affluent audience to Whole
Foods.

~~~
UncleEntity
Bashas is now part of Albertsons which is one of the big grocery conglomerates
in the US.

------
dev_dull
> _“It advertises hard-to-beat low prices but it offers little in terms of
> fresh produce and nutritious items—further trapping residents in a cycle of
> poverty and ill-health.”_

The elitism here is sickening. Why shouldn’t the author just come out and say
“We know what’s best and have to control the stores around poor people or they
might buy junk food.”

I hope people who think this way never end up in a position to influence
actual laws or policies.

~~~
orf
It's not elitism to talk about the very real link between an abundance of
unhealthy foods and an unhealthy lifestyle, and the secondary link between
areas of increased poverty and a lack of access to healthy foods.

America is freaking fat, man. Like really, really fat. Over 35% of people are
obese! I'd say the proof of people knowing best what to eat is in the pudding,
so let's stop crying about illuminati control of our lunch options and start
looking at how we can encourage healthier eating.

------
K9DRDOh
I must have missed something in the article. the main cons I gleaned are

\- some items are not as cheap as walmat/costco like Fluor

\- they dont create as much jobs as traditional grocery stoes ( 9 vs 14)

I assume the folks who are struggling are not stupid .. and have looked at
every conceivable way of stretching their dollar and judging by the demand it
(Dollar store) is providing a valuable service.

I take another exception to the approach this article takes .. instead of
complaining about dollar stores moving into poor/urban areas why are they
giving a pass to the established grocery chains for moving out ? it seems like
providing 9 employment positions is better than the 0 being offered by the
other stores.

~~~
ravenstine
> I assume the folks who are struggling are not stupid .. and have looked at
> every conceivable way of stretching their dollar

One might assume. Possibly the biggest trouble of dollar stores is that a lot
of the "deals" are the result of simply selling things in smaller quantities.
The next time you visit a Dollar Tree, compare the actual amount that you get
for something like flour, oatmeal, detergent... really anything, to the sizes
sold at normal stores. Things are often cheaper at Dollar Tree and Family
Dollar because the containers are smaller, often 2/3 size, and sometimes the
price for goods at dollar is _more_ than elsewhere when adjusted for quantity.
There are some deals to be found at Dollar Stores, but it's not as if similar
deals can't be found at normal stores. Dollar Stores compete because of
_perception_.

I occasionally stroll into a 99 Cents Only store and there was a time when
they had big juicy mangoes for 1/3 of the price of the mangos at the local
Ralphs or Vons. I bought some on the spot and they were delicious. But that's
one of the ways that dollar stores get new believers; they will have a few
really good deals on things that aren't really essential, like mangos, to get
people to think "wow!" and assume that all the other low prices around them
are just as good of a deal.

~~~
jeswin
> The next time you visit a Dollar Tree, compare the actual amount that you
> get for something like flour, oatmeal, detergent... really anything, to the
> sizes sold at normal stores.

Many financially constrained people have a cash flow problem - they often end
up spending more as you said.

However, buying larger quantities is still not an option because the money is
simply not there. Being able to plan out a month is a luxury in some ways.

~~~
dorchadas
Exactly. It's one of the biggest issues in trying to help people out of
poverty. As Sam Vimes's "Boot Theory" sums it up:

>The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they
managed to spend less money.

>Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus
allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an
affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then
leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those
were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so
thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the
feel of the cobbles.

>But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could
afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry
in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would
have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have
wet feet.

>This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.

It's essentially true. Poorer people have to buy the smaller
quantities/cheaper materials because it's all they can afford. And because of
that, they end up having to buy it more often, often spending more in the long
run. I'm actively trying to change my wardrobe now that I've realized that,
and buy clothes that will last longer as opposed to cheaper ones that I have
to replace more often. Thankfully, I have the money to do so, but many do not.

~~~
iguy
I like the boot story as much as the next guy, but is this actually true in
the real world? By which I mean something like this: In what categories of
products do rich people actually spend less than poor people? Are there any?

It's certainly true that top-end clothing lasts longer than cheap stuff. But
the people who buy it like nice things, and variety. Maybe car repairs? But
probably a trick of counting the new-car service plan as part of the purchase
price.

~~~
diydsp
it's all an information game of continuously and strategically evaluating
every purchase!

i buy almonds at the indian grocery for $5/lb in 3lb qty rather than $7. i
drive a used toyota camry even though it's boring as hell but low $/mile.

heck part of the value of desktop pcs is their modularity... there's also a
subreddit called buyitonce iir.

~~~
iguy
In my case, saving money by buying nuts in bulk is like a frat house saving
money by ordering kegs.

More seriously I've also saved money by having a prepaid phone plan which was
a lot more expensive per minute. And by buying super-cheap ice skates which
I'm sure would have worn out after 10 times... and throwing them out when I
moved soon after. In other words, sometimes the simple calculation by which a
more durable item is cheaper, leaves out important things.

------
kbos87
This article is maddening on many levels. All they manage to prove is that
dollar stores, like many other types of stores, go where they perceive their
customers to be. They aren’t a causative factor behind poverty or racial
segregation, though they managed to inject that deeply into the storyline.

I dislike dollar stores, but not for any of the reasons listed here. The folks
pushing back in Vermont aren’t angry about dollar stores for the reasons being
dissected in this piece - instead, they seem to dislike massive, soulless
retail chains showing up and profiting off their community.

How about instead writing about the fact that Whole Foods _doesn’t_ open
retail stores in communities of color? That probably doesn’t play as well to
their affluent white audience who probably has disdain for dollar stores but
shops at Whole Foods on the regular.

------
Yhippa
Every year for Christmas my wife continues a small family tradition: every
year we go there and buy stocking stuffers for our small family.

It's definitely a different experience than going to a grocery store for sure.
It's almost like you have a department store or modern pharmacies like CVS
with the food capabilities of a gas station or 7-Eleven.

I can see why it would appeal to lower-income families. If you assume they are
short on time you can probably get all your shopping done in one place. It's
definitely smaller than a grocery store and there are fewer options. I think
this helps because if you're short on time and trying to get in and out of
there you have to spend less time in the store and there's less cognitive
overload trying to figure out what to get.

Most grocery stores I've been to have unit prices somewhere on the shelf.
They're noticeably absent and I have to do the math sometimes.

I can understand residents being upset about these stores being subsidized by
local government. It makes me wonder what the alternate solutions are. I
assume they're getting subsidized since stores are fleeing or they don't want
to open up shop. If that's true I don't think those stores are coming back
unless they're even more heavily subsidized.

Is the solution more Aldi's or Lidl's? I've found that there's a "feel bad"
for me going in those stores compared to a normal grocery store.

~~~
perardi
Aldi's can be a bit drab, but the actual quality is fantastic. (I don't
understand how Aldi's has the best fresh pineapples.)

~~~
Symbiote
Good logistics is one of Aldi's strengths in Europe, so I assume they've taken
that experience to the USA.

That also have less range of products, which might mean they sell more
pineapples as there are fewer alternatives.

------
nate_meurer
I normally like CityLab, but the tone of this article really grates on me.
Calling dollar stores parasites? The article casually notes that without these
stores many poor or minority communities would be true retail deserts, but it
offers no workable alternatives. Only invective.

Every Dollar General I've ever been in has dairy, eggs, a competent selection
of canned and dry goods (pasta, beans, etc), baking goods, and a good (if
basic) selection of fresh fruits and vegetables.

It's not the dollar store's fault if the surrounding community insists on
frozen pizzas and soda.

~~~
da_chicken
Yeah, this does kind of feel like condemning people for having the gall to not
shop at Trader Joe's.

Realistically, what's the difference between Dollar General and Woolworth's 5¢
& 10¢ stores? What's the difference between Amazon and the Sears Roebuck Mail
Order Catalog? The names have changed, but merchandise really hasn't.

~~~
selimthegrim
There was a Bloomberg article from not too long ago where one real estate
analyst described the dollar store companies as betting on the existence of a
permanent underclass in America. That might be the subtext this article is
driving at.

~~~
kungtotte
I make really good money for my area (I'm not in the US), but I still prefer
to buy some things at dollar stores or the cheap store brands at regular
stores. Some things it's just not worth paying twice as much for name brand
things.

There's a brand of microfiber cloths I buy to clean my truck and car and it's
the same exact brand in the dollar store and the supermarket that are next
door to each other but it's literally twice as much in the supermarket.

It's pieces of fabric that will end up covered in grime and grease, why should
I pay twice as much?

~~~
creato
> It's pieces of fabric that will end up covered in grime and grease, why
> should I pay twice as much?

I know you said it's the same product so this doesn't apply directly, but I
was reminded of something that happened to me.

I was buying sponges, and the store-brand knockoffs were about half as much as
the name brand sponges. They had the same yellow/green design, and they're
just sponges... why not get the cheaper ones?

When I got home and used the sponges, I noticed that they were leeching green
dye onto everything I used the sponges on, even for at least a few days after
using a new sponge. I never noticed significant staining from the sponge
runoff, but it's also not worth $3 every few months to not have to wonder if
my sponges are going to dye my food/dishes/whatever I'm cleaning green.

Anyways, I don't really have a point here, it's just really annoying that I
think of these sponges every time I'm buying the cheaper knockoff products.

------
Nasrudith
This doesn't really make sense to me on several levels - including the fact it
is possible to eat perfectly healthy frozen and canned fruits and vegetables -
a bit more additives in the case of canned but frozen if anything is likely
better nutritionally due to being frozen at peak freshness. They just might
taste a bit worse.

I wonder how much of the issue is cultural and institutional knowledge as
opposed to economic. Poverty alone doesn't ensure lack of healthy cooking, the
skills involve and time aren't free or universally possessed. One can't just
handwave away the labor costs of auto repair for everyone because they know
how to fix their own car.

Cynically the 'backlash' it seems more like a 'keep the poor out' move than
anything else.

------
niftich
While these communities are snubbing Dollar General and Family Dollar -- most
of rural America welcomes them with open arms, because they stock roughly the
same sorts of things as a CVS or Walgreens, but actually build out in a county
of a few thousand, and the one next over.

A few decades prior, Walmart built up a retail empire through its willingness
to build on the outskirts of rural, far-from-everything-else towns that only
had gas stations, ailing downtowns, and maybe a small grocery store, but
definitely not a supermarket. But even Walmart's best-in-class coverage leaves
large tracts out, and these gaps are filled in by the sorts of Dollar General,
for when you don't need to go to the Walmart another twenty, or forty minutes
away.

In more populated, more urban areas, grocery stores have shed locations in
neighborhoods that were faltering, further contributing to these locales'
decline. These are interrelated. It's easy to claim that variety stores don't
do enough about food deserts or that they even contribute to the problem (by
not stocking enough fresh, perishable foods), but at least they're trying,
while other national chain stores have pursued a pragmatic strategy that has
largely removed them from this issue.

I once expressed, in a comment on a Strong Towns post [1], that when you
consider settlement patterns, urban form, structural poverty, and food
insecurity, perhaps you'll find that it's more sensible to subsidize fresh
food delivery to people who could least afford it, but such a solution might
find itself at odds with the solutions that (new) urbanists would prefer. It
might not alter the structural status quo, but it could improve real outcomes
in real people's lives.

And as for nonperishables and non-food, bulk packaging is a discount
accessible to those with access (e.g. warehouse club), transportation,
storage, and able to cover a higher upfront cost for a lower per-unit cost.
These are all harder on low or unpredictable incomes, which is one of the many
ways poverty is quite expensive. But is this the fault of variety stores? Of
course not. The real fix is much harder.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17525029#17531109](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17525029#17531109)

------
DoreenMichele
_“What if we went to these neighborhoods and didn 't assume that poor people
or communities of color do not want to eat healthy?”_

You can lead a horse to water. You cannot make it drink.

I don't know how to fix this. I grew up in a home where food was very
important. There was a garden out back and my mother cooked from scratch, etc.
In recent years, I've been quite poor, including spending some of that time
homeless.

My firsthand observation of other poor people is that most of them seem to cut
the food budget first. Anecdotally, when I finally got off the street by
moving into a cheap rental, many other residents clearly smoked cigarettes
and/or marijuana. They tended to stay up all night. I wasn't disturbed by
their behavior because I couldn't hear them in my room, but I could hear them
anytime I went down the hall to the bathroom.

The character of the residents has changed in the time I have been here. I
think the presence of my family is a factor in that. People behave better.
Most people seem to sleep at night. We smell less cigarette smoke and less
marijuana smoke.

We smell more food cooking in the building. I think people are smoking less
because they are eating better and they probably somehow learned that from us
(at least to some degree).

Do note that one reason a lot of homeless people smoke is because it is an
appetite suppressant. I think people were smoking so much because they weren't
eating enough. Now, people are eating better and smoking less and their sleep
schedules, behavior, etc all appear to be improved in the aggregate.

I know from talking with people and reading articles, etc, that a lot of poor
Americans have this idea that eating well is some luxury they cannot afford
rather than a basic necessity upon which everything else is based. They try to
get cheap, convenient food. They often lack good cooking skills.

To my mind, poverty and health problems grow out of this broken mental model.
I don't know how we fix it, but I don't think just making sure there are
stores selling fresh produce fixes it. When I was homeless, bananas and
oranges were frequently given for free to homeless people and I sometimes saw
other homeless folks just leave it on a sidewalk somewhere.

I really think we need to figure out how to promote healthier eating in the
US. I don't think that actually starts with stores per se. I don't know where
it starts. But we have this bizarre idea that "health care" happens at a
doctor's office instead of seeing diet and lifestyle as the foundations of
health that they actually are. Americans tend to have lousy diets and then
high medical bills.

~~~
yesenadam
I lived on $2 a day for a couple of years[0], that was left after rent, bills
and tobacco. Tobacco is taxed out the wazoo here in Australia, $30+ a bag. I
didn't think about stopping.. As long as you can afford a luxury like that,
you have your human dignity. Or something like that. Maybe if a bag of oranges
was $35 and tobacco $3, fruit would be the essential luxury..

"The only thing that can console one for being poor is extravagance. The only
thing that can console one for being rich is economy." \- Oscar Wilde, _A Few
Maxims for the Instruction of the Over-Educated_

[0] I survived on pasta, home-made cereal (e.g. wheat germ + shredded coconut)
and friends taking me out to lunch.

~~~
icelancer
Exactly. People consume tobacco/alcohol/marijuana because, well, so do normal
people. If you have never been poor, then you can't possibly understand the
stress that goes into it that is often relieved only by these types of goods
for many people, and the shame that already goes into giving up so much.

------
grendelt
Dollar General and Family Dollar are not dollar stores. They are variety
stores - their stuff is not $1. Dollar Tree is a dollar store.

~~~
rudolph9
They’re honestly kinda expensive. Dollar tree gives you a lot for your money

------
icelancer
These articles definitely make me think the average leftist/Democrat in the
United States has no idea what it's like to be poor and reliant on many public
services. They'd understand not only why Dollar Stores exist, but why they are
primary choices for many impoverished Americans.

Source: Been destitute and on public assistance with a child and limited
access to a car.

~~~
peteretep
Can you explain why that's true of leftist/Democrats and not true generally of
all people?

~~~
icelancer
I mean these articles in general. They aren't written by Republicans; they're
written by leftists who feel they should do better and this and that. Most of
the time they've never experienced poverty and why poor people make the
decisions that they do, like shop at Dollar General, for example.

~~~
peteretep
I think you’ve taken the right-wing bait a little too to heart here. In the
US, most young people, most women, and most ethnic minorities are Democratic-
Learning, and I’m speculating those are also the groups most affected by
poverty.

~~~
Noos
He's talking about how the rich young twitteratti of the knowledge class have
no idea what poverty is, and yes, most of them are politically leftist. The
people affected by poverty aren't writing articles bewailing dollar stores,
it's the rich people in the process of gentrifying small towns who hate them.

~~~
peteretep
I would agree that most young people are leftist, and most people in the
knowledge class are leftist. I'm not going to agree that most rich people are
leftist or most people on Twitter are leftist. I am willing to go along with
most people matching all of {rich, young, knowledge class, on Twitter} are
leftist, although I've no idea if it's true.

However, extrapolating that to the OP's point of:

> the average leftist/Democrat in the United States has no idea what it's like
> to be poor and reliant on many public services

really doesn't follow at all. The numbers are clear that really poor people
heavily skew Democrat. In summary:

Less than $30k: 20%R to 43%D

$30-50k: Equal split

$75-150k: 33%R to 30%D

$150+: Equal split

It feels impossible to go from these numbers to the Op's conclusion, although
I would accept the modification of it to "the average person in the United
States, of either party affiliation, has no idea what it's like to be poor and
reliant on many public services". Suggesting that's more true of Democrats is
simply not factual, the numbers suggest though.

More detail at: [http://www.people-press.org/2016/09/13/2016-party-
identifica...](http://www.people-press.org/2016/09/13/2016-party-
identification-detailed-tables/)

------
jstewartmobile
This is a sloppy hitpiece by someone who probably doesn't cook, is too uppity
to be seen in a DG, or both.

DG has saved my bacon on numerous occasions--when I've found myself an
ingredient or two short mid-recipe.

They have plenty of dairy, eggs, canned vegetables, dry goods, spices, etc--
more than adequate for a nutritious and affordable meal.

~~~
ettercap18
I couldn’t agree more.

This person has unilaterally made a judgement from afar about what people
“should be eating” and wants to ban them from getting what is affordable and
attainable.

------
JoeAltmaier
I looked hard to find anything resembling a problem with Dollar stores. What
exactly can be pinned on them? Providing cost-effective food to neglected
neighborhoods? That's painted as some sort of tragedy, but it seems to stem
from a privileged point of view. "No fresh olives; no nine-grain bread" is not
a tragedy.

------
cameldrv
The reason that there are places where the only grocery stores are dollar
stores is because the people who live in those places are overwhelmingly poor.
If you want these people to buy fresh produce and live like middle class
people, you need to figure out a way to bring them out of poverty.

~~~
webmaven
There is actually another option - subsidize growing fresh fruit and
vegetables the way we do corn & soy:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/farm-bill-
why-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/farm-bill-why-dont-
taxpayers-subsidize-the-foods-that-are-better-for-
us/2014/02/14/d7642a3c-9434-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html)

~~~
icelancer
Fruit and vegetables are ludicrously cheap where I live at Farmer's Markets
and such that are open normal hours, year-round. People still love buying
boxed and processed food for many, many reasons. If the fruit and veggies got
20% cheaper I am positive it would only help the people already buying the
very cheap produce and attract basically no new business.

------
newnewpdro
This has been an ongoing issue near me @ Joshua Tree, CA [1] [2].

I don't know all the details, just what I've heard some people involved share
about it on various local podcasts like Desert Lady Diaries [3]. It sounds
like a major objection is the presence of a Dollar General casts an area as
impoverished, making it less attractive to potential
transplants/investors/tourists. Joshua Tree residents and business owners are
trying like hell to distinguish the area from its surroundings as a classy
enclave full of artists, and want to do their best to attract the preferred
kind of investment and residents, raising the bar - not lowering it.

It is quite visible when driving through the surrounding towns. The Dollar
General stores, definitely leave a crappy impression. I visited one once just
to see what they sold, and the sliced bread loaves on the shelves were moldy,
some had insects visible inside. NOPE.

[1]
[https://www.facebook.com/groups/nodollargeneraljoshuatree/](https://www.facebook.com/groups/nodollargeneraljoshuatree/)

[2] [https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/2014/12/25/dollar-
gener...](https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/2014/12/25/dollar-general-
unwelcome-joshua-tree/20903761/)

[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmGyfvro5aierNkIuSNVDOg/vid...](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmGyfvro5aierNkIuSNVDOg/videos)

------
ja27
I hadn't noticed until this year but many dollar stores in the suburbs near me
carry less groceries than other stores in the - uhm - rougher parts of town. I
found out that their lease often limits them to selling "snacks only" if there
is another grocery store in the same plaza, which in one case includes just a
Target. Go visit one that's more stand-alone and you'll see more grocery
selection.

------
sonnyblarney
I don't see a lot of evidence to support the thesis.

"When a dollar store opened up in Haven, Kansas—subsidized through tax breaks
by the local government—sales at the the nearby Foodliner grocery store
dropped by 30 percent, "

This seems to be a case of a specific kind of competition, and the Dollar
Store is good at that.

The corporation is 'extra evil' for selling stuff cheaper than the 'normally
evil corporation' down the street? These arguments are really hard.

As long as produce is available - and by all reasoning it is ... then
remaining conclusions are a stretch.

Cheaper prices are generally good for consumers, especially the most
vulnerable.

Also should note that it is 'fresh produce' that tends to be the cheapest
food. 'Processing' is where the cost is, ergo, and maybe thankfully, processed
foods will be more expensive.

------
tomohawk
There were riots in Baltimore a few years ago. The street gangs used it as an
excuse to knock over every pharmacy, shoe store, and liquor store.

This destroyed years of work trying to get stores to build there. Among many
others, Target decided it was no longer worth the risk and moved out. They
also ended up cancelling projects in other cities, such as DC.

When a city is not competent at providing for basic things like safety and
security, it becomes a high risk area, and many businesses will limit their
exposure. Small dollar stores are a form of that. Vacant store fronts are
another.

~~~
nradov
There is a Target store open inside the Baltimore city limits. I think they
may ave only abandoned certain neighborhoods, not the whole city.

------
benatkin
I think there's enough clearanace stuff there that it might be helping to cut
down on waste. It's surprising how much junk there is there, and much of it
looks like it wasn't intended to wind up at a dollar store. If not for a
dollar store would it wind up at a landfill?

------
markbnj
We hardly have grocery stores anymore even here in affluent north-central New
Jersey. Walmart, Sams, and Target came in, and quite a few of the old line
stores closed, helped along by the A&P debacle. Then they closed the Sam's
near us, so the nearest market that sells fresh food is around 10 miles away.
I'm no expert on the economics of selling food, but the current situation
seems like a lot to lay on the dollar stores.

------
rudolph9
I never buy food at these stores but dollar tree is shit for random household
stuff! Sponges, dish soap, batteries, baby wipes, light bulbs, you name it
just a dollar. Don’t carry everything you need but if they do it’s usually
about 1/2 the price at Walmart and 1/4 what it costs at Walgreens.

~~~
rudolph9
Ps dollar tree offers way more value for your “dollar” (pun intended :) than
dollar general where things seems to rarely cost a dollar.

------
ettercap18
Any article using the term “white flight” is to be regarded as ideological
propaganda.

When you are performing analysis at the level of blaming white People for
moving, you are not looking at serious material.

------
AlexTWithBeard
Among other reasons of sorry state of the communities this article mentions
"white flight".

Would it be worth starting a campaign to attract white people back to the
dilapidated neighborhoods?

~~~
sokoloff
What might be the essential elements of such a campaign? In other words, if
you believe in “white flight”, I assume you think they did so for a reason or
set of reasons.

Have those reasons changed? Have the conditions changed? Other than relatively
inexpensive land, what’s the motivation for a group who decided to move out to
move back?

------
geggam
Dollar store is a symptom of repressed wages. How about we fix the cause
instead of treating the symptoms ?

------
Ricardus
I've actually wanted to do a documentary on dollar stores, and their
proliferation as wages became more stagnant or fell. This idea came to me
maybe 8 or 10 years ago. The punch line of the film (although different than
this article) would be that they wouldn't be truly helpful until cars and
houses became a dollar.

------
MentallyRetired
Dollar General is not a dollar store. It's a General Store with the name of
"Dollar".

------
gnulinux
When I was living in Berkeley as a poor student, dollar tree was the only
thing I could afford. I must say I never missed them, their products were the
lowest of the lowest quality and now every morning and thank God that I make
enough money to not worry about groceries.

