
Apple's best product is now privacy - octosphere
https://www.fastcompany.com/90236195/forget-the-new-iphones-apples-best-product-is-now-privacy
======
richliss
I'd switched to a OnePlus a few years ago and was delighted by the
performance/cost.

In the last few years the combined privacy invasion from:

1\. Google at the very heart of Android (and even Cyanogen/LineageOS with DNS,
Google Play Services etc.) and everything I do on the phone. 2\. OnePlus with
sending data and telemetry back to China and being caught out multiple times
after saying they respect the user. 3\. Facebook with asking for/getting
insane levels of permissions from Android for their apps.

Has made me realise that Apple are the only option for anyone who cares about
privacy and wants some simplicity.

Sure I'd love for the ello (/e/) project to eventually take off and provide a
real solution but in the meantime and for now Apple aren't showing any signs
of wanting to (or needing to) exploit/sell my personal data.

I'm degooglifying as much as possible and my tech friends are too after the
recent scandals. Google's a company we will look back on in 50 years as being
a blight on freedom.

~~~
elborro
Sadly also Apple collects data on their users. Last year around 300TB a day on
what users search for, which apps they use, how many times, where you click
and navigate through the OS and in the apps, etc. :(

~~~
mkolodny
Apple, along with Google and other companies, gives the government access to
pretty much all of our data: [https://www.theverge.com/2013/6/6/4403868/nsa-
fbi-mine-data-...](https://www.theverge.com/2013/6/6/4403868/nsa-fbi-mine-
data-apple-google-facebook-microsoft-others-prism)

~~~
mrtksn
Yep, that's why our data is a liability for them, thus they are trying to
collect as less as possible.

Which, is also the main argument of the OP for preferring Apple.

~~~
mkolodny
Apple gives the government a backdoor into your iPhone. So I'd argue that you
don't have privacy when you use an iPhone, period. Same goes for any
smartphone, really.

I'd guess that Apple really collects less data because they want to preserve
your battery life, not your privacy.

~~~
clay_the_ripper
Please provide a source or don’t post unsubstantiated comments.

~~~
mkolodny
That comment was based on the title of the article I linked to above: "Secret
program gives NSA, FBI backdoor access to Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft
data".

I assumed that PRISM data came from a "backdoor" it had to iPhones. There's no
proof that PRISM data didn't come from a backdoor to iPhones. But there's no
proof it did come from a backdoor either. So I'll take back that comment.

------
tjoff
Though I think apples "pro privacy" stance is likely just a happy accident I
tend to agree.

Either you choose a somewhat open platform, or you choose privacy. One would
have thought/hoped that they were tightly coupled.

As it is today I can not buy a phone without having a deep bottomless disdain
for it. Not the hardware but the software. And I don't even expect that much.

I have given up entirely, the slither of hope is that in the future we can
decouple the smart in smart phone with the phone. A truly dumb phone that I
can interface from another device, a device I have _some_ control over that I
don't have to sell my soul to.

~~~
tomp
> Either you choose a somewhat open platform, or you choose privacy

Huh? Isn't Linux (the original one, not derivates like Android) relatively
private, while being completely open?

~~~
wycy
Sure, but on any decent phone, the only Linux you're going to get is Android.

~~~
snaky
What's wrong with openness of Android flavour of Linux, called AOSP? Yes, the
hardware drivers are mostly binary blobs, but there are many binary blob
drivers for PC and other hardware on Linux.

------
amatecha
If you're curious about the reality of what actual privacy and/or security you
are offered by Apple's products, you might be interested in Apple's guidelines
for law enforcement requests. There's lots of info at
[https://www.apple.com/ca/privacy/government-information-
requ...](https://www.apple.com/ca/privacy/government-information-requests/)
and there are two PDFs at the bottom outlining their ability to provide user
data in different situations.

They also summarize the security of iCloud services, delineated by "in
transit" and "on server", here: [https://support.apple.com/en-
ca/HT202303](https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT202303)

I wanted to actually call out one important detail in the latter link above:
"iCloud secures your information by encrypting it when it's in transit,
storing it in iCloud in an encrypted format, and using secure tokens for
authentication. For certain sensitive information, Apple uses end-to-end
encryption. This means that only you can access your information, and only on
devices where you’re signed into iCloud. No one else, not even Apple, can
access end-to-end encrypted information."

So, we can discern that anything you store on iCloud that isn't using end-to-
end encryption can be accessed by Apple. This includes (but is not limited to)
Contacts, Photos, Notes, device Backups, and everything you're storing on
iCloud Drive.

~~~
digianarchist
What about data retention? If I delete one of those things is it gone for
good?

~~~
amatecha
I'm not sure. I couldn't find anything about how long data remains kicking
around after you "delete" it. I assume anything I ever store on iCloud is
stored permanently, _somewhere_, but who knows?

------
gmiller123456
Sorry to be so negative, but this is just BS. Short of a legally binding
statement from Apple stating exactly what information they collect and who
they sell it to, then you're just assuming they aren't collecting and selling
your data. Of course their terms of service explicitly give them permissions
to collect any information they want and sell it to anyone they want, which
should be a big clue that they're doing it.

This article is solely about Apple making it harder for 3rd party apps and
websites to track you. That's certainly a good thing, but the downside is that
it just makes the data Apple has (or can have) far more valuable, which only
increases the likelihood that they're collecting and selling a lot of data.

This article is just one guy speculating about his thoughts, and he was
possibly paid to do it by Apple. If Apple wants to make privacy a selling
point for their products, they would no doubt seize the opportunity to do so
very loudly. And, if it's not Apple saying it, then it's not legally binding.

~~~
wilg
> If Apple wants to make privacy a selling point for their products, they
> would no doubt seize the opportunity to do so very loudly.

They have definitely been doing this over the past four or five years and
certainly claim they aren't selling your data:
[https://www.apple.com/privacy/](https://www.apple.com/privacy/)

~~~
gmiller123456
That just raises the suspicion for me. That website is a far cry from "We
don't collect your data, we don't sell any information about you". Instead,
the closest they get is with the statement below:

"Whether you’re taking a photo, asking Siri a question, or getting directions,
you can do it knowing that Apple doesn’t gather your personal information to
sell to advertisers or other organizations."

That only applies to two things, taking a photo and asking Siri a question. It
does not prohibit them from collecting the data for their own use. And does
not prohibit them from selling analysis of that data.

~~~
sharkjacobs
At the bottom of that page there are links to more information.

[https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-
privacy/](https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/)

> Your iOS device can collect analytics about your iOS device and any paired
> Apple Watch and send it to Apple for analysis. The collected information
> does not identify you personally and can be sent to Apple only with your
> explicit consent.

You have to opt in to analytics collection when you set up the device and in
Settings>Privacy>Analytics>Analytics Data you can examine or download
everything which has been sent to Apple.

If you take Apple at their word that they're only collecting what they say
they are, they're not bad.

~~~
gmiller123456
You do explicitly consent when you agree to the terms of service.
Additionally, further down in the paragraph you quoted:

"When it’s collected, personal data is either not logged at all, removed from
reports before they’re sent to Apple, or protected by techniques such as
Differential Privacy."

And the fact that you can download the data unquestionably proves that it can
be traced back to you. I think you're just seeing what you want to see, and
aren't paying attention to all of the loopholes they create for themselves.

~~~
el_cid
> And the fact that you can download the data unquestionably proves that it
> can be traced back to you.

Not necessarily.

------
zahrc
At the start of my career (when I haven't been earning that much money)
Android phones were easier to access, because they were cheaper. At first it
baffled my mind at which scale Google is able to provide services for free,
but the more experience I personally gained, the more I realised at which
cost, my privacy.

Answers to my questions why apple products are way more expensive, even
compared to devices with similar features and hardware specs, remained pretty
superficial "it's that way" or "apple is just better" weren't obviously
satisfying. Blinded by my own conclusion that apple products just sell because
of apple fanboyism I remained with google.

Now, in the year of 2018 were everyone is interested in your data im still
pretty wishy-washy of getting an iPhone but recent news drive me towards it.
But in the end it might be a decision between pest or cholera.

~~~
mercutio2
The total cost of ownership for Apple products is, for some calculations, less
than other products.

It obviously depends a lot on how much you care about software updates, how
gently you treat your device, etc. But if you’re the sort of person who buys a
new phone every two years and sells your old phone, the resale value of the
old phone tends to be high enough that the costs look about the same as
reasonably comparable domestically available devices.

If you’re buying your phone straight from China, or don’t care much about
high-end phone features, your mileage may vary.

------
jaegerpicker
I wish Privacy was a bigger deal to people I knew. Apple, despite it's faults,
is doing really incredible work at raising the bar for privacy. I know so many
technical folks who just shrug when privacy comes up. It's amazing to me that
people can just seem to not care. I know that awareness is rising but so many
people are willing to trade a little money for something they can never
reclaim. It seem so short sighted.

~~~
cortesoft
Well, why should they care? I hear so many hypotheticals about why the privacy
invasion is bad, but I have heard very few people give real examples of actual
harm.

Most people aren't going to care about things until it effects them in some
way.

~~~
nyolfen
look at china’s social credit system

~~~
astura
Can you explain China's social credit system? This is the first I've heard of
it.

~~~
nyolfen
the state tracks your economic activity and personal behavior and habits and
uses them to calculate something akin to a credit score, but which is used to
restrict civil rights (travel, education opportunities, etc) if you are
perceived as unreliable.

> From the program, the Chinese SCS will be fully implemented starting in 2020
> and will be made mandatory for every citizen. Once implemented, every
> citizen will be rewarded, or punished, on the basis of their behavior. Some
> types of punishments can be: flight ban, exclusion from private schools,
> slow internet connection, exclusion from high prestige work, exclusion from
> hotel, registration on a public blacklist.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System)

------
paulcarroty
Apple delete apps which send telemetry to Chinese servers (2-3 days old news),
Google don't care.

So, Android devices sucks with privacy and cheap space to farming to other
companies. Heard some Chinese companies sell phones with ad injections in
default apps.

~~~
snaky
You can install XPrivacy [1] on your Android device. You cannot do that with
Apple device.

[1] [https://forum.xda-
developers.com/xposed/modules/xprivacylua6...](https://forum.xda-
developers.com/xposed/modules/xprivacylua6-0-android-privacy-manager-t3730663)

~~~
scarface74
You don't need to. Unlike early versions of Android and apps that still link
to older versions, with iOS, you have never had a list of permissions you had
to accept before launching the app. The app ask permission when you need a
feature and you can deny it the permission. After it asks once (three times?),
it will never ask for the permission again and you have to go to settings to
enable the permission.

~~~
drdaeman
You have a point but are also mistaken. XPrivacy does way more granular access
checks than Android or iOS provide. The downside is, it's not casual user-
friendly.

With XPrivacy you're able (or used to be able - I'm not sure if it works on
recent Android versions) control things like how apps can use WebViews (e.g.
what URLs they are allowed to open there), or whenever app is allowed to read
or write (all separately) clipboard data. Etc etc.

~~~
scarface74
I’m looking at a list of permissions here:

[https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacy/blob/master/README.md](https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacy/blob/master/README.md)

Most of these permissions either require individual consent after you run the
app (and can be revoked in settings) or aren’t allowed under any
circumstances.

The exceptions I see are:

Clipboard

Internet access (you can block cellular internet access on iOS and 3rd party
keyboards can be blocked from allowing any network access)

Prevent links from opening in a view - depending on which type of web view
that an app uses, the native content blocking framework that third party ad
blockers use for Safari also work in the WebView. For instance, the ad blocker
I have installed works with Feedly - my RSS reader.

The only sensor I think that can be blocked is the GPS.

~~~
snaky
XPrivacy is not about blocking, it's about faking.

PrivacyGuard in LineageOS is about blocking.

~~~
scarface74
How is “faking” it better than just not allowing it all? iOS Developers have
had to handle being denied permissions gracefully since 2008.

~~~
DrJaws
some apps don't work if the permissions are blocked. With xprivacy you can
tell them

My phone number is 000 000 000 and my email is fuck@you.com

and they work fine then

~~~
scarface74
And iOS doesn’t need that bandaid. App developers have been developing with
the expectation that their apps could be denied permissions they request since
day one.

~~~
drdaeman
Except for stuff that iOS doesn't ask and even implement a permission for.
Like UIDevice.identifierForVendor.

------
duxup
I'm tempted to move from Android to an Apple phone partly for that reason.

I'm tired of the endless android situations where an app seems to be able to
do whatever regardless of permissions... and permissions can't really be
managed anyway. I also don't belive Google will ever get a handle on those
permissions / privacy, they just don't care to.

It doesn't help that google killed the nexus line and now we have pixels that
are premium priced anyway so I may as well consider Apple where I didn't
before.

The camera is also a big deal to me so a lot of the "hey it's not a pixel but"
options just don't do it for me.

~~~
taurath
The ability to install an ad blocker natively on the default browser is the
reason I switched, and cannot stand androids anymore (after 5 android phones
previously).

~~~
lern_too_spel
You can install system-wide adblockers on Android. This is not possible with
iOS without running a separate proxy server like pi-hole.

~~~
taurath
If you jailbreak it iirc though

~~~
lern_too_spel
No "jailbreak" required on Android. Just implement the VpnService API.
[https://github.com/blokadaorg/blokada/blob/master/app/src/ma...](https://github.com/blokadaorg/blokada/blob/master/app/src/main/kotlin/tunnel/ATunnelService.kt)

~~~
saagarjha
You can do this on iOS as well, but not for App Store apps.

~~~
lern_too_spel
So if you rebuild every week or pay Apple a yearly fee for the privilege of
blocking ads on your own phone.

~~~
glhaynes
It's surprising to me that an easy-to-use set of scripts to do this for you
hasn't popped up (to my knowledge). When Apple initially offered the "zero
cost but you have to rebuild every week" solution, I was sure there'd be an
idiot-proof solution to make that seamless within a few days.

~~~
saagarjha
Cydia Impactor can do this on-device, IIRC. But you still need to launch the
app.

------
shiado
Apple was added to PRISM in 2012 and we have no reason to believe the programs
they have been required to cooperate in have been dismantled, if anything we
should assume they have been strengthened.

~~~
richliss
This is true but let's face it if the 5 Eyes want to spy on you then you have
massive problems - one person trying to defend against the state is an
absolute fantasy. It's Google/Facebook/OnePlus/Samsung spying on me for
commercial gain that I can do something about.

~~~
lostlogin
New Zealand is one of the 5 eyes, so you can pretty much ignore our
capabilities. Unfortunately the other eyes make up for that, and then some.

------
jccalhoun
I have a hard time getting worked up about getting tracked online. I'm looking
at Facebook's suggested groups right now. I've been on facebook since around
2013. The groups they try to suggest to me are:

one for a game I play that I used facebook to log into. Makes sense.

1st edition advanced Dungeons and Dragons. I haven't mentioned Dungeons and
dragons and haven't played it since the mid 1980s

Grindr aesthetics. I am hetero so I'm not sure what this is.

Indy Nostalgia. I live in Indiana so I guess that is somewhat relevant.

Hearthstone Australia. I live in Indiana and I don't play Hearthstone.

A few days ago I was talking about this with a friend and looked and facebook
had suggested I join a group for progressive Asian-American Christians. I am
not Asian-American or a Christian.

If this is the best they can do with 15 years worth of data then I don't think
I have too much to worry about.

~~~
sampo
I buy running shoes from Amazon. The next 4 weeks Facebook and Reddit and
random websites show me nothing but ads for running shoes. I already have my
shoes, don't need another pair, thank you.

Am I a minority, not being a serial shoe shopper? Or is whatever machine
learning those companies are running really that simplistic?

~~~
samatman
The shoe market has 'whales' who spend a double-digit percentage of a median
income on shoes every year.

That said, no, it's really that simplistic. Amazon will do the same thing for
vacuum cleaners, and vacuum cleaner whales do not exist, as far as I know.

------
fady
The author makes a few good points. Let's not forget though that Android OS
still is waaaay more customize-able, and can be made more secure than iOS.
Passcode on boot? Yes. I can choose what I want on my phone. I can choose to
root my phone, just like a computer, with android, I can have full control of
everything. Apps, defaults, kernel, etc.

Now, having said all that, for the average grandma I would also recommend an
iPhone. Android OS/play store/xda is still the wild west, and you can be
compromised easier, if you don't know what you're doing.

~~~
TracePearson
Making android more secure than iOS is out of reach for the vast majority of
people. Most android devices sold don't even get regular security updates.

------
decebalus1
Sorry, but I don't buy it. I believe this is just effective marketing which is
exploiting the current Facebook, Google, Microsoft privacy discussions.

Apple doesn't care about privacy, it cares about money and will continue
playing this record from now on. The main reason why they did not go on the
user data gathering/selling is mainly incompetence. They were just so far back
in terms of user tracking that they just went 'fuck it, we'll consider this a
feature now'.

Also, let's not forget they are part of PRISM (which they lied about).

Just wait for iphones to start declining in sales (and they will) and have the
privacy talk again.

~~~
unethical_ban
I don't "trust" Apple, but they have been hyping security and privacy as a
competitive advantage for several years now. Their business model is selling
hardware and support, not in advertising and data.

~~~
decebalus1
> Their business model is selling hardware and support, not in advertising and
> data.

For now, let's talk again in a couple of years..
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-looks-to-expand-
advertisi...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-looks-to-expand-advertising-
business-with-new-network-for-apps-1527869990)

~~~
aljones
Now matters quite a bit to me. I'm unable to predict the future well.

------
acangiano
I'm switching back to iPhone as soon as the new ones come out in part because
of their pro-privacy stance.

~~~
toasterlovin
They're out. Order away!!!

Edit: I guess maybe not in your country yet.

~~~
acangiano
I'm in Canada so it's available for pre-order. :)

------
whyagaindavid
Sadly, I do know that some HN-hackers may have qualms about money and
comparison but the title could be extended to have "... for the rich".

It is increasingly a bubble for the rich to super-elite not necessarily for
the average citizen. [http://time.com/money/4346766/mark-zuckerberg-
houses/](http://time.com/money/4346766/mark-zuckerberg-houses/)

~~~
sebular
Not that I see the logic in comparing the cost of an iPhone to Mark Zuckerberg
buying buffer properties, but the cheapest new iPhone you can buy on apple.com
is the iPhone 7 for $449, and that's without doing any price hunting. It's an
entirely functional phone that has all of the same privacy features as any
other iPhone, and it offers similar performance to other phones at that price.

Furthermore, there are plenty of people who live near the poverty line that
will be buying an iPhone XS Max this year. They deserve privacy just as much
as anyone else, and if they're deciding between spending a disproportional
amount of their income on an iPhone or the latest Galaxy Note, the correct
advice in terms of privacy would still be "buy an iPhone."

~~~
saagarjha
And I'm sure the $349 iPhone SE is still being sold until stock for that runs
out.

------
neya
Sorry, iOS is a closed source OS and nobody can verify what's exactly
happening under the hood, this article is shallow and unverifiable. I disagree
that Apple's product is privacy without being able to verify that there isn't
some code that's processing my personal info. Nobody here can prove or
disprove it without access to the source code.

~~~
fpoling
Have you looked at the source of Linux kernel or Chromium? Can you really tell
what is going there without spending years working with it? Most likely you
cannot. Moreover, as never ending stream of bugs indicates, neither engineers
that work on the code can tell what the code does precisely.

Open source is very nice for tinkering, less so for security assurance. For
the latter sound architecture is essential, and one can understand that
without having the source for all the components.

~~~
kgwxd
The fact that a single person couldn't possibly fully understand a complex
system is all the more reason to get more eyes on it. Besides, security is not
the same as privacy, There's a huge difference between spotting where a
network connection is being created, what data is sent and where to vs
completely understanding an entire code base and spotting cleverly obfuscated
code or low level bugs.

With closed source, only employees get to see the code, their goals align with
the company. Open source, anyone can see it and raise stink about things they
don't like on behalf of all users. It only takes 1 person for all users to get
the benefits.

Granted, open source doesn't prevent all privacy issues, MS still does
telemetry in OSS projects, sometimes not even allowing to opt-out, and they
just ignore the countless complaints, and enough people still use it. Such is
the state of the world I guess. But imagine one day MS decides to say they're
no longer collecting telemetry but they've actually put in some cleaver code
that looks like it does one thing but actually sends telemetry data. Getting
caught doing that would be a way bigger PR issue that would, hopefully, cause
far more users to completely stop trusting them, even if all their code was
open source. I don't expect companies that want to stay in business for long
would attempt such a thing.

~~~
fpoling
There are literally thousands of eyes that look at kernel sources. Google even
pays 1e5 usd if one finds exploitable bugs in their code. Yet security-related
bugs stil pop up regularly.

Even to prove things formally source is not that essential. One stil needs to
know details how code is translated into the machine instructions. But then to
show, for example, absence of code path that copies user location into network
packet one may analize machine instructions.

------
colechristensen
The thing holding me back from iPhone is the inability to buy content from
non-apple sources.

~~~
saagarjha
You mention "content", which presumably includes digital media–all of which
you can totally buy anywhere else and load on your phone, or use an app to
purchase on-device. The only thing you can't get from a non-Apple source is
software (well, normally, that is. You can still sign apps yourself and
sideload them on your device).

~~~
colechristensen
>use an app to purchase on-device

That's the issue. You can't.

Can I buy an audiobook on the Audible app? No.

Can I buy a book/movie/show/etc on any Google Play app? No.

Am I willing to buy on websites or using a laptop or different advice instead
of my phone because Apple? No.

~~~
dwighttk
I don’t know about google play, but you can buy kindle books on the device in
Safari.

~~~
colechristensen
That, to me, is unacceptable.

~~~
scarface74
It’s an unacceptable to go to a website? Especially in the case of Amazon, you
probably already have a credit card on file.

Everyone bemoans the “walled garden” and not being able to buy apps anywhere
except for the App Store. Now here is a case where you can buy _content_ using
the “open web” and that’s not good enough?

~~~
colechristensen
The credit card is on file in my Audible app too as with the rest of them on
android. I'm not sure if the third party apps are explicitly banned from
selling or if they just refuse to pay the Apple tax, I'm not interested.

Having to explain to my mother that the chromecast she got for christmas would
only work on her phone if she first went to a website to buy a movie we wanted
to watch and then opened the app to play, I feel like I am living in a bizarre
parody.

I don't _want_ to deal with that needless hoop jumping and my mother just
won't do it.

~~~
scarface74
Apple sold audio books through Audible for over a decade and you could sync
your purchases back and forth. They were forced to stop because of regulators.

[https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/19/14323438/apple-audible-
ex...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/19/14323438/apple-audible-exclusivity-
agreement-ended-antitrust-investigation)

But as far as your mom being confused. Isn’t confusing enough to use a
Chromecast that requires a phone with a TV instead of using a remote?

I can’t possibly see how it would be a better user experience to have to use a
phone to control a TV than to be able to use native apps and a remote.

If you are going to stay in the Android ecosystem, at least get something like
the Nvidia Shield.

------
throw2016
Totalitarianism is not built in a day. You don't wake up one day to find
yourself in dystopia.

At the moment the capabilities are being built in bits and pieces, like the
frog being boiled, and once the capabilities are there they will be used and
abused. You don't even need imagination to see this, even a basic acquaintance
of human nature and history is enough.

The current generation of software folks have dropped the ball and sold out
completely. There is a feeding frenzy of creepiness, stalking people
accompanied with denial, apologism, dilution and posturing. If you are going
to question the value of privacy or diminish the danger of surveillance you
might as well question democracy and human rights. This is what apologism
does, reduces discussion to basic first principles.

This is what greed and money does to people, and why regulations and rule of
law is required to cement and reiterate the values a society subscribes to.

------
satysin
With how Microsoft has ruined Windows and having awful experiences with
several Windows based laptops this year (XPS 15, Surface Book 2, ThinkPad X1
Carbon) I decided to switch to a MacBook Pro two months ago when the 2018
models came out.

I haven't been this happy using a computer in a long, long time. Yes this MBP
cost me about £800 more than an equivalent Dell or Lenovo but damnit it just
works so well. There is no frustrating corner cutting like I found on so-
called 'premium' laptops from Dell, Lenovo and Microsoft such as panels with
backlight bleed, poor audio, wifi issues, etc.

It has been _so_ good that today I did something I haven't done in over a
decade. I pre-ordered an iPhone Xs Max. I don't have any real functionality
issues with Android but I am happy to be getting away from Google.

Now I just need to find a reliable alternative to G Suite and I can be Google
free!

------
HiHelloBolke
Moreover it's interesting to see how Apple is marketing durability with new
iPhones... some of this is a byproduct of their environment strategy, i.e to
reuse parts and thus generate less waste and perhaps is economically sound in
the long run. But as a consumer, when you are spending that much money, you
are going to decide on durability rather than how environmentally friendly it
is - although for apple both mean same thing.

When the market is already saturated with smartphones, the new features and
technology in each new release have become incremental. Also it's easier to do
much more with the software.

Adding more hardware in a already complex, miniaturized device is difficult
and may take more than the 2 year cycle...

------
kodablah
Unless you're Chinese or expect Apple to be clear and transparent about their
privacy principles when forced to go against them. Apple's best product is the
pass given to them by the media.

~~~
clay_the_ripper
Apple is still a profit seeking corporation. Given that they could be like
google and mine you for every cent, but don’t, is a pretty big tick in their
column. Aim for progress, not perfection.

~~~
fucking_tragedy
It's less of a big tick, and more of a big question mark, where the question
is "how, or when, are they going to exploit this massive untapped resource
they're sitting on?"

------
sybhn
As someone once said very eloquently on this forum: Apple is a consumer
product company and makes money selling you products, while others (Google,
Facebook, etc) are ad platforms companies making money selling you as a
product. It's in Apple's best interest to keep your data safe and
confidential, unlike other internet giants. When i had to chose a online
photos storage provider, the choice was clear, for that very reason.

------
cheeseomlit
I don't buy it, they're a provider for the PRISM program.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#/...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_\(surveillance_program\)#/media/File:Prism-
slide-8.jpg)

They put on a big show about unlocking a phone for the FBI and all that, but
I'm inclined to think it's all just theater to give people a false sense of
security

------
Illniyar
Is it though? Is there any reason to believe that a significant amount of
people buy Apple products because they believe it to be more private?

My impression is that the vast majority of users don't care about privacy - no
matter how much privacy apple adds to their product, it's becomes moot the
moment you are active from facebook, or use google products - which
practically everyone does.

------
miaklesp
What's the point of having the 'fastest processor on the market' if you are
completely locked down?

\- no background tasks, OneDrive experience sucks

\- file system experience sucks, cannot save file in one app and open in
another

\- no alternative browsers

\- no apps like Termux, or other emulators

It's a joke!

What are you going to do with this 'fastest processor'? Make photos of food
for Instagram?

~~~
djrogers
> \- no background tasks

Completely false - there are many types of background tasks an app can
perform.

> OneDrive experience sucks

Obviously this is subjective, but OneDrive can integrate at the file system
level and be treated as a first-party file provider. If MS makes that suck,
that’s not on apple.

> \- file system experience sucks, cannot save file in one app and open in
> another

Also completely false. The Files app/framework includes not only locally
created and managed files and iCloud, but also incorporates third party file
storage like Dropbox and OneDrive.

> \- no alternative browsers

Also false

> \- no apps like Termux, or other emulators

Plenty of apps to get you on an SSH or serial terminal - Prompt and GetConsole
are my gotos, but there are tons.

It really sounds like you read a list of half-true iOS complaints from 2010
and regurgitated them here.

~~~
miaklesp
Can I do the following workflow on iPhone:

1\. navigate to a download link in browser, download the file

2\. change file extension to zip, and unpack it to a folder

3\. open one of the extracted .docx files and open in Word

4\. save it as a PDF file

5\. go to Mail app and attach the PDF file

Is the $1000 phone with the 'fastest processor of the market' capable to do
this?

~~~
fstanis
With like 6 different apps, you can.

------
godelski
The data they link to is pretty interesting[0]. In [1] there is an interesting
chart. On page 578 (next page has the chart the article refers to, this is the
table for it) it shows that from 1980-2014 the top 0.001%'s post-tax income
growth grew 616%, the top 1%'s grew 194%, top 10%'s 113%, and the middle 40%
grew 49% (full population grew 61%). They also compare this to the growth from
1946-1980, where the growth was more evenly spread out. The top 10% had growth
rates that were multiples of their pre 1980 growth rates, while everyone below
the 10% had fractions.

[0] [http://gabriel-zucman.eu/usdina/](http://gabriel-zucman.eu/usdina/)

[1] [http://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/PSZ2018QJE.pdf](http://gabriel-
zucman.eu/files/PSZ2018QJE.pdf)

------
kbumsik
Well, only iOS is, not all Apple products. It bothers me a bit that the high
security/privacy of iOS is automatically applied to all Apple products in the
article.

The notorious High Sierra proved more than enough that the macOS engineers
develop __zero__ security in mind.

------
maxxxxx
Their product is privacy until it isn't. As long as we only have dominant
platforms dominated by huge companies we are at risk. I hope there will
something Linux for phones that is a real alternative.

------
jmfayard
Hypothesis: Apple's best product is now privacy.

Testing the hypothesis: if that was true that all those new iPhone do not
matter that much, Wall Street analysts would take a hard look at what is the
gross margin of the Apple's new best product (privacy) and Apple stock price
would take a serious hit.

Looking at the evidence: AAC stock price is super high

Alternative hypothesis: some people will buy Apple products for tribal
reasons, no matter what the quality over price ratio is, and find a
rationalization after the fact to justify it.

~~~
randomsearch
When plenty of smart people are doing something you’re not, there’s often a
good reason why. Rather than dismiss it as “tribal” did you buy or borrow an
iPhone or ask them why?

I’ve used a bunch of Android phones at work and a bunch of iPhones.

If you’re a hacker who wants to mess with their phone, want customisation, or
don’t have more money, then an Android makes sense.

Other than that, buy an iPhone. You’ll spend more time getting things done,
more things will “just work”, and it’ll break less often and have fewer bugs.
The design is great, the aesthetics of the X are wonderful.

And then there’s privacy. Apple are hammering it because (a) Tim Cook sees it
as a priority, for rather obvious reasons, and (b) it’s a competitive
advantage that Google will never be able to counter unless they stop basing
their business on adverts. Good. Let’s hope they hammer it more and more and
force google to change. Android in its current spyware form is not a good
thing.

~~~
jmfayard
Well obviously there are a lot of smart people using iPhones and even more
smart people using Android phones.

Anyway in my opinion the biggest problem of smartphones by far is that we use
them too much and mindlessly. The brand of the smartphone is mostly
irrelevant, it's using it smartly that counts

------
morsma
As a very long time Android user (since HTC Hero), I've recently switched to
the IPhone for the exact same reason. I was a big fan back then, but lately
I'm starting to be put off by Google, for instance the late reveal of mettling
in the US election etc. At least you gotta give Google for partially admitting
it by removing the "Don't be evil" motto back in 2015. It's only MS, Apple or
open source here from now on...

------
bestnameever
OGoogle supposedly removes your personal information when you delete it from
their myactivity website. [https://www.businessinsider.com/even-if-you-
cleared-your-his...](https://www.businessinsider.com/even-if-you-cleared-your-
history-google-records-your-search-activity-2018-4)

I'm guessing a very small percentage of people do so but it's pretty helpful
if you care about your privacy.

------
amatecha
In terms of privacy, Apple seems so far ahead of the industry it's practically
shocking. I paid the invoice from Namecheap for a domain renewal last night
and when downloading the receipt, I noticed a network call to
Facebook[dot]com. Turns out it was hitting some telemetry API and logging my
order ID, session token, transaction ID, and other stuff like my screen
resolution and who knows what else. Like... what?

------
jaski
I totally agree, now that I'm getting screwed by Redmi. Redmi is spilling ads
all over the phone... in the useless but compulsory widgets screen, in the
video app, in the gallery, in the messaging app, in the memory cleaner app, in
the screenshots app, you name it. It's getting nauseating.

------
taurath
All companies that are dependent on ad money have cognitive dissonence, in
that most “care” about their users but the users are not their customer
anymore. They eventually revert to only providing enough value to keep users,
or try to lock in users via monopolies or legal means so they can spend
resources on ad technology or enablers of them.

------
amelius
I just wish the EU would step in and demand that all hardware is actually
owned by the person who buys it, so we didn't have to root devices in order to
get some privacy.

Apple hardware is nice, but also expensive. Further, a lack of options is a
bad thing. Apple is now basically monopolist in the space of privacy-
respecting smartphones.

------
pyman
The article is very clear:

Apple’s business model doesn’t rely on monetizing user data. Google, on the
other hand, has a business model built around advertisers.

In other words, Apple has a choice when it comes to selling your data, Google
doesn’t.

I’m not going to talk about Facebook because it’s just a website, like
MySpace, and doesn’t sell hardware.

------
devy
I agree with the assessment in the article. Having said that, I wonder if it's
possible to port iOS to run on Android devices? In other words, how different
is Apple's custom designed silicon vs. Qualcom and others ARM design?

------
vinylkey
Their choices in hardware make it hard for me to switch.

Since the new hardware announcements this week I'm scrambling to find a new
iPhone SE to switch to from Android. I want privacy, but I also want a small
phone with a proper headphone jack.

------
dvfjsdhgfv
The problem here now we have a choice between a bit open phones tracking all
your activities and a more closed platform that values privacy more. That's
very far from ideal and a new player could bring a lot of fresh air here.

------
vinceguidry
Call me when people stop buying phones and start buying privacy.

Maybe I'm being unnecessarily snarky, but is it really too much to ask for a
business journalist to be able to tell the difference between a product and a
feature?

------
elborro
Sadly also Apple collects data on their users. Last year around 300TB a day on
what users search for, which apps they use, how many times, where you click
and navigate through the OS and in the apps, etc. :(

------
alexanderdmitri
I know with Android that companies like Verizon install a "super cookie" that
cannot be removed without rooting the device. Does anyone know if this is the
case with iOS as well?

~~~
ben1040
The Verizon "supercookie" is an HTTP header they add to your traffic. They do
it via deep packet inspection, not anything on the device, and it affects iOS
as well. After they got caught doing this they added the option to opt out at
the account level.

[https://www.verizonwireless.com/support/unique-identifier-
he...](https://www.verizonwireless.com/support/unique-identifier-header-faqs/)

------
ggm
Remember folks: the Chinese don't share your personal data with the five-eyes
governments. All the western snooping software does.

So who do you trust more with your personal data and why?

------
znutarr
I've been using this app from [http://bit.ly/vega_msg](http://bit.ly/vega_msg)
Secure messaging

------
srg0
Isn't Apple hosting iCloud on Google infrastructure? Technically if I didn't
trust G, I wouldn't trust A either.

------
izietto
What about using Tor browser? I think it's more important than the points
listed in the article

------
aj7
It’s true. And it’s also a risk for Apple.

------
DyslexicAtheist
the sad reality in many vulnerable parts of the world is Apple products are
financially out of reach

------
znutarr
I've been using this app for safe communications. Http://bit.ly/vega_msg

------
chad_strategic
I'm sorry, but I don't even have to read this article, to know this is nothing
more than propaganda.

Full Disclosure: I work at the NSA

------
idrios
I'm glad privacy is a valued feature and wish it were the norm.

But more importantly, I come to HN to learn news or tools for programming.
Less of this sponsored content and more "Show HN: Here's how I used computer
vision to make a robot throw spoons only and specifically at my roommate,
Tom."

~~~
octosphere
> I come to HN to learn news or tools for programming. Less of this sponsored
> content

How is it sponsored? HN is not just about programming, but if it's programming
you need there are communities like Lobsters[1] which are heavily biased
towards programming.

Privacy issues are always going to crop up in tech, and especially now more
than ever with IoT devices and the proliferation of smartphones.

[1] [https://lobste.rs/](https://lobste.rs/)

~~~
exodust
But this article is not about privacy issues. It's about "how fantabulous and
oh-so worth the higher price, Apple products really are".

~~~
ceejayoz
"Privacy is worth a price premium" is "about privacy issues", isn't it?

~~~
exodust
Nope. It's about a price premium being worth it when that price is connected
to an Apple product.

~~~
ceejayoz
The author finds privacy to be worth a price premium.

The author argues Apple's making the right privacy decisions, and as such they
don't mind Apple's price premium.

~~~
exodust
That author states in opening paragraph: "Apple offers better products and
solutions than its competitors." And how as a "tech writer" they always
recommend Apple products. Nothing to do with privacy.

The article is not about privacy.

~~~
ceejayoz
Yes, if you stick to the first paragraph of an article, you'll often miss its
main point. Scroll just a _little_ down:

> I now believe the best product Apple offers is intangible, yet far more
> valuable than a flagship smartphone. The best product Apple has–and the
> single biggest reason that consumers should choose an Apple device over
> competing devices–is privacy.

------
eveningcoffee
... and deleting your movies.

I am not sure we can trust them.

~~~
vesak
Deleting the movies the don't have the rights to distribute anymore? How could
they legally do that?

------
tannhaeuser
Apple could market their pro-privacy stance more aggressively, or at all. As
it is, they could change it at any time. For example, if market conditions are
changing, selling access to Apple's valuable user base should be extremely
tempting for compensation. If OTOH they emphasize their privacy stance with
all their marketing prowess, this certainly will make mainstream consumers
consider "privacy" a value in itself.

~~~
toasterlovin
FWIW, they highlight privacy as a feature wherever applicable during their
live events.

------
aphextron
The whole “low power mode” debacle was such a perfect example of this. Android
permissions management is an insecure disaster. It’s something that would have
been physically impossible to do on iOS.

~~~
pjmlp
Sure, Apple just slows down the whole OS instead.

~~~
woah
They decided that battery life was more important than performance to most
people. I suspect they are right about this.

~~~
suprfnk
It wasn't battery life, it was stability. The day Apple brought out the
feature toggle for you to choose whether you wanted to throttle your device or
not, I turned the throttling off. The phone was as fast as when I got it
again.

That same day the phone crashed, a first in a long time, because apparently
the power draw was too high for the battery. Imagine if, instead of
throttling, they had phones crashing left and right. I think throttling was
the right choice, but they could have been more transparent about it.

~~~
chooseaname
They could have chosen to better match the battery with the power needs of the
phone. But, they chose form over function instead.

~~~
macintux
Batteries get old. I'm not sure what Apple can do about that.

~~~
chooseaname
That wasn't the issue...

~~~
saagarjha
Uh, yeah it was. Older batteries couldn't support the peak power draw, so
Apple responded by throttling the CPU if necessary. Unless you have something
to share?

~~~
chooseaname
Look back through the issue. People started getting throttled within the first
year when they still have 90+ percent capacity left. That's not an "older"
battery.

~~~
macintux
Citation? Apple's official statements seem to correspond to anecdata that the
problems went away after a battery replacement.

~~~
chooseaname
reddit.com

~~~
macintux
I'm going to buy anecdata that backs up a reasonable explanation from Apple
over anecdata alone.

------
geophertz
I wouldn't trust apple for multiple reasons: * because they agree (or at least
help) censorship in china it shows that they do not care about the user, they
do what is best for them and if that is sharing data with anyone they will do
it. It don't understand why apple would help a governments with bad intention
in china and not the rest of the world. * secondly if they really want to
protect your privacy why don't they open source some parts of their systems
and let people build it (compile) themselves. eg: the T2 chip could be a
backdoor, who can prove it's not?

------
runjake
Some things to keep in mind:

\- Once upon a time, we all rallied around Google and it's "Don't be evil"
mantra and Google seemed privacy-focused. Then that went away.

\- Apple marketing is currently hyping privacy, but they still collect a
staggering amount of telemetry from devices. They still hold a lot of our data
that is not encrypted at rest. Some day, their touted stance on privacy will
change.

~~~
amatecha
Apple walks the walk, Google talked the talk. That simple.

~~~
runjake
Back in the day, Google walked the walk, too. Until they stopped.

------
fatjokes
I feel like people are blaming the tech companies for their own flaws. As
Homer Simpson once said: "It's easy to blame ourselves, but it's even easier
to blame Flanders."

The targeted ads and (fake or not) news are not what's "threatening
democracy". It's an ignorant populace that doesn't know how to evaluate
credibility of news sources, or open themselves to multiple viewpoints (e.g.,
you can read Fox News _and_ the NYTimes!)

Bad politicians were able to get elected long before the Internet came along.

Personally, I love the benefits of Google's ecosystem. It's handy. I use
Facebook, but only for Messenger and events. I resist the urge to read the
news on my feed. Apple's products are nice but Siri is garbage and I like the
cloud.

------
exodust
> _"...we live in a commercial surveillance state. Well, unless you use
> Apple’s products."_

The cringe train is arriving at the station.

> _" When you pay that extra money for an Apple product, you’re not just
> buying better industrial design or more advanced underlying tech–you’re
> buying the right to keep more information about yourself to yourself."_

All aboard the cringe train.

This article could have been written by a bot, instructed to talk favorably
about Apple and privacy. Tech journos are funny when they expose their brand
crushes.

~~~
on_and_off
I work on a mobile app .. we probably have hundreds (maybe thounds?) of
tracking tags for everything you can do in the app.

We have the exact same tracking on iOS and Android

~~~
Gorbzel
Name the app.

~~~
on_and_off
Honestly, that's pretty much any app I have ever worked on.

The mobile industry has moved long ago to a model where the app is a service
and analysts look at user data to determine how the app is used.

------
kjullien
Ha. I strongly disagree, for many reasons. The main one being that they have
such terrible software devs (sorry but lately every Apple release was a
fiasco) that they couldn't possibly have a "safe" and "private" environment,
not intentionally obviously, but they keep showing their lack of concern and
involvement time after time.

~~~
toasterlovin
FWIW, they recently deployed a new filesystem to 1 billion devices with a
software update. I'm pretty sure that qualifies them as a competent
engineering organization.

~~~
kjullien
So in your opinion APFS ins't a failure that barely worked for about half a
year after it's __public __release ?

Caused problems for almost every software where a patch was needed by the devs
(namely docker, sure you could find more examples).

I actually had to reformat my drive because __Disk Util.app __on a APFS
formatted drive could not handle bootcamp correctly on release and it foobared
my entire drive.

To their credit they get it right when you give them some months and a
userbase of millions of people. I simply wish they did all that before they
actually publicly release their latest botch and enable it by default on every
device.

~~~
toasterlovin
Believe me, if APFS was a huge disaster, it never woulda left the front page
of this website. Instead it was all griping about RAM and keyboards on the
MacBook Pro.

