
Seattle has third largest homeless population in U.S. - Mz
https://www.geekwire.com/2017/zillow-data-seattle-3rd-largest-homeless-population-u-s-rising-rents-take-toll/
======
joelrunyon
You're seeing this is smaller cities as well (San Diego and Portland come to
mind). I'm curious on the data of homeless pop percentage-wise - as I think
both of those cities would be much higher.

From an anecdotal perspective, I left San Diego for a year to travel and
coming back now it's much, much worse than before. Tent cities are way bigger,
the homeless population seems _much_ more aggressive, and the small fact that
we have a Hepatitis A outbreak due to there not being bathrooms for them[1].

While San Diego rent hasn't skyrockets like SF/Seattle, etc - the sentiment
locally seems to be the huge increase is mostly due to other cities sending
their tough cases here [2][3].

Seems like this should be one thing the government should be ready to handle,
but it's only getting worse.

1) [http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/14/health/hepatitis-a-outbreak-
sa...](http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/14/health/hepatitis-a-outbreak-san-diego-
county/index.html)

2) [http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Nevada-Settles-
Homeles...](http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Nevada-Settles-Homeless-
Dumping-Lawsuit-369736411.html)

3) [http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/sdut-san-
diego-...](http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/sdut-san-diego-
homeless-crisis-great-weather-2016sep04-story.html)

------
discordance
It boggles my mind every time I visit Seattle or San Francisco and I witness
the struggle. The wealthiest people in the world responsible for developing,
building and deploying the services that we all use everyday (and getting paid
massive amounts for it), juxtaposed against the homeless and poverty stricken
living directly next to them.

~~~
sgift
Maybe that's my cynical German view of the USA, but to me that's the natural
outcome of a society where the prevailing attitude is that everyone is
responsible for themselves and if you have problems that's your fault and your
fault alone.

~~~
weerd
There are services for the homeless in America. That attitude is only taken by
a portion of our population. You have a fair point though, it's a large
portion...

The population in the USA is swelling and everyone wants to live in the city,
so prices are rising. Except for meth and dope, which only costs a couple
bucks. Cities don't have the money or available land to deal with it. It's
awful.

There's also another side to this situation, and I might be blowing it out of
proportion but here it goes.. I think that we have self-centered attitudes in
this country which make young people think that their own experience through
life is paramount and above the society around them. I.e. thinking it's OK to
backpack around Seattle all day filching cigarettes and dollars from anyone
who will look their way, all while leaving their shit and trash in the common
spaces.

I have mixed feelings about this because there are poor souls out there who
have been fucked over in life and deserve help. But some of these kids have
expensive backpacks/tents, nice ink, and smoke fine weed. Maybe I'm
misinformed, but the whole scene can really look like narcissism and fat ego.

------
esotericsavage
As a Seattle resident, seeing firsthand these massive and multiple tent cities
springing up everywhere, is unbelievably frustrating. Tent cities will appear
in one area of town, only to be later cleared by Police and then fences
erected to ensure they don't return.

Homelessness is nothing new, but in an area that prides itself on its
inclusivity, progressiveness and innovation, Seattle has thus far, failed at
addressing the problem. Additionally, given Seattle's place as a major tech
hub, the companies (Amazon is directly complicit in this issue since they
contributed immensely to the now largely unaffordable rental/housing market)
that have profited from the area, need to ask the question if thousands of
homeless people wandering the streets is an acceptable cost of doing business.

~~~
r00fus
Perhaps part of the problem is that a) people agree homeless folks need a
place to live but b) aren't confident/capable of influencing their
representatives to make a change.

Meanwhile they don't want the problem to affect them for the months/years
until political action is taken.

~~~
Mz
C) Most people don't actually know how to fix the problem effectively,
including many of the people whose responsibility it supposedly is.

------
hudibras
Here's a link to the paper.

[https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.09380](https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.09380)

------
holydude
So most Americans live in the suburbs and commute but in a semi-big cities if
you are not a middle class you cannot even afford to rent (not even think
about buying) an apartment ? Why is this a big problem ? I thought in the US
you guys are more liberal when it comes to building highrises. Or is it
because no matter the demand it's just too unaffordable for your avg joe ?

~~~
twblalock
American cities are generally restrictive about building high-rises, or any
new housing for that matter.

Everyone wants their city to remain the same as it was when they moved there,
and unfortunately they have the political power to obstruct new construction.

------
fsloth
Aren't there any state housing programs in the US? Where I live a person
basically needs to contact social wellfare and their rent will be handled by
the state when they can prove they don't have income or savings. And our GDP
is nowhere close that of US (GDP, Finland 40k per capita, US 51k per capita)

~~~
thinkythought
There are, but they're completely overwhelmed and have enormous waiting lists.
There's also large issues with basically every attempt to construct housing
being blocked, because no one wants it near _their_ house

------
dmode
I just returned from a 10 day vacation in Switzerland. And I am not making
this up, I didn't see a single homeless person. Can anyone enlighten why there
are so few homeless folks in Europe compared to the US ?

~~~
olfox
Switzerland has an exceptionally low rate due to a couple of reasons pretty
specific to them. In general, Europe seems worse off than the US.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeles...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population)

~~~
oblio
Those numbers don't really support your claim...

~~~
olfox
There's around twice as many european countries with a lower percentage of
homelessness than the US on that list compared to those with higher. Though,
those where to a larger degree more populated. You could probably cut it how
you want it, but framing it as Europe having lower homelessness is too
simplistic and that was my main point.

~~~
oblio
Many of those countries have 1/3 to 1/4 of the US GDP per capita. That has to
count for something... ;)

------
ringaroundthetx
Has anyone gone the rent free route of urban tent living? With an REI
membership and looking at some resident sidewalk occupants, it does seem
viable to have a tent and save $3,000/month while keeping a normal job.

Realizing that the people that have abandoned their dignity are a tiny part of
the homeless population, nobody would actually know, great way to save.

~~~
Mz
I did it for 5.7 years (for health reasons, not to save a few bucks), though I
did not camp on a sidewalk and I did freelance work instead of having a job.

I don't recommend it. I also doubt that you would save as much as you think.

~~~
wallace_f
Would I be able to ask some questions? What health reasons would cause you to
sleep in a tent that doesn't involve saving money?

And where did you sleep? And why not sleep in a vehicle? And why did you not
save as much as you thought?

By the way, if you want to live in a vehicle, tent or something like that
while freelancing, you could always just move to Eastern Europe, India or
someplace else and live well for what you'd spend living in a tent in The Bay
Area. Personally, that's what I would do. Alternatively I've read online about
being "net cafe homeless" in East Asia for 10-30$ a day. Or, I've wondered
about buying a van in Europe and hopping between countries for a couple years,
but I've never heard of a non-eu citizen doing this, has anyone?

All of that is almost definitely more effort than it is worth if your only
objective is to save money, but they might be good ideas if you want to
experience them as part of travelling abroad while on a budget, or just get
away on a Steve Jobs-type of adventure like he did to India.

~~~
Mz
I don't really want to discuss my health issues. That is always all kinds of
drama.

I slept in a tent in whatever greenery I could find, usually on the edge of
town. The reason I did not sleep in a vehicle: I gave up my car years before I
went homeless. I no longer drive.

I didn't say I didn't save money. I said the OP likely would not save _as
much_ as they think.

OP said they would save $3000/mo. Let's assume that is current rent.

Housing is a place to store all your stuff. Many homeless people rent a
storage unit for their stuff. Subtract the cost of your storage unit.

Housing allows you to buy food cheaply and cook from scratch. No kitchen means
buying a lot of prepared stuff from eateries. If you are suddenly "saving"
$3k/mo, you probably will not be eating at the absolute cheapest places to
save money. Subtract higher food costs from your savings.

If you have a regular job, you need to be presentable. Homeless showers are
often pretty horrifying and their schedules are incompatible with most work
schedules. Most people will need to pay for some kind of shower access, such
as a gym membership, truck stop showers and/or the occasional motel stay.
Subtract that from your savings.

You can't expect to leave anything in your tent. It isn't secure. You have to
carry everything you own everywhere at all times to secure it. If you leave
your tent on the sidewalk, it may be gone when you get back. If you have
money, you can potentially buy expensive lightweight, ultra slim items to make
your alternative lifestyle work, such as a silk sleeping bag liner instead of
heavier bedding. Subtract those expenses from your savings.

Camping tents are not intended to be lived in. They wear out when you live in
them full time. I replaced my tent every one to three months. Subtract that
from your savings.

Seattle is very wet. Cheap tents are never very waterproof. You either need a
more expensive tent or to accept that stuff will be ruined or to check into a
hotel anytime it rains hard. When electronics, like a phone or laptop, get
wet, they can die. Life on the street is hard on possessions. They routinely
get lost, broken or stolen. Subtract that from your savings.

Etc.

I could probably go on, but that should give you some idea.

~~~
ringaroundthetx
Thanks for the in depth reply! I asked a question and got downvote censored
pretty quick - by time of writing - and I'll probably be shadow banned soon
for asking.

So, I really appreciate the discussion.

I never considered that motel checkins would be a recurring thing for people
that live that lifestyle.

~~~
Mz
Motel check-ins are not a recurring thing for most homeless people. They can't
afford it because they aren't out there due to imagining that sleeping in a
tent is some clever life hack that will save them money. But if you have
enough income where it is feasible to spend $3000/mo on housing (that is more
than I live on all month, supporting a family of three) and you imagine that
sleeping in a tent on the city sidewalk will save you $3000/mo, that is just
not realistic.

When the storms come, you will say "Fuck it! I am not sleeping in this! I am
checking into a hotel. I can afford it for one night."

As soon as I had enough resources to check into a hotel periodically, my
highest priority was being in a hotel during life threatening storms. It was
often a financial hardship that I stressed about, but I did it anyway. So, I
think the odds are really poor you will willingly subject yourself to sleeping
outside in a bad storm as a matter of course if you don't absolutely have to.

I wasn't in Seattle. I was someplace a lot drier. Given how much rain Seattle
gets, hotel stays on stormy days could easily exceed $3000/mo. On a per night
basis, hotels are usually much more expensive than housing.

Additionally, you will not be welcome at homeless services. Those are aimed at
helping poor people, not clever hippies giving the middle finger to society to
save a few bucks. And people will likely be much less tolerant of you setting
up a tent on the sidewalk than of actual destitute people doing so. If the
neighbors and cops figure out you are adding to the homeless problem in spite
of being able to afford housing, you may find yourself subject to a campaign
of harassment until you either go elsewhere or relent and get back into
housing.

If you want to save a few bucks, a better plan is to do some research and look
for a cheaper housing arrangement. This might involve getting a roommate or
moving to a cheaper town and commuting or something else that adds
inconvenience to your life. If you can't tolerate those inconveniences, you
really don't want the hassle involved in living in a tent with no plumbing, no
electricity, no means to secure your possessions, etc.

Also, I don't imagine they will shadow ban you for asking a naive question in
good faith. I don't think that violates any rules here. ;-)

