
Show HN: NomadList – The best cities to live and work remotely in - pieterhg
http://nomadlist.io/?hn
======
pieterhg
Hi HN! I made this. Here's some info on the data before everyone goes berzerk
:)

Firstly, it's crowdsourced from this spreadsheet
[http://nomadlist.io/edit/](http://nomadlist.io/edit/) so it might not be 100%
accurate.

Secondly, NomadCost != cost of living. NomadCost is based on short-term
staying in a hostel, hotel or apartment in the center, working in a coworking
space and having a basic meal three times a day. That's the average digital
nomad's lifestyle. They move around every few months, so they can't rent long-
term. So NomadCost will be way more expensive than cost of living for a
resident.

I'd like to monetize this by selling city specific nomad guides on how to set
up in each place and letting people find jobs remotely. Hope this helps! I
think this is the future of work, so I'm very happy to help push this.

P.S. this is part of my goal to launch 12 startups in 12 months (see
[http://levels.io/12-startups-12-months](http://levels.io/12-startups-12-months))

~~~
jarek
> P.S. this is part of my goal to launch 12 startups in 12 months (see
> [http://levels.io/12-startups-12-months](http://levels.io/12-startups-12-months))

Not to be mean, but is this one really a startup? What's the business model?

~~~
pkallberg
I love what Pieter's doing! There may not be a business model at the moment,
but getting these products out of the door is a first step. After 12 months,
he'll have a good idea of which ideas work, which don't, and what to pursue
next. Good luck!

~~~
jarek
Well I mean this product as it currently stands will give him an idea about
traffic to a crowdsourced comparison site and little else. What'll be the
business, putting on ads or allowing cities to pay to become "featured" nomad
hubs?

You can say that lessons learned from launching 12 sites will help pivot into
one that works as a business, but that's one company with 12 products, not 12
companies.

~~~
coldtea
> _Well I mean this product as it currently stands will give him an idea about
> traffic to a crowdsourced comparison site and little else. What 'll be the
> business, putting on ads or allowing cities to pay to become "featured"
> nomad hubs?_

For one, ads are not a bad idea. Startups are not just for $5 billion buyouts
-- they can also be $500/month side projets.

Second, he already said he has an idea about selling guides for how to setup
business in each of those places.

~~~
makaveli8
monetising a website by putting ads or affiliate links on it does not qualify
as a "startup" in my opinion. It bugs me how the hacker community throws the
word startup around willy nilly.

------
compare
Great concept. One feature request: Better calculations for cities with Bi-
modal price distributions.

Certain cities have a extremely bi-modal distributions of pricing. I.e. they
can support both the "broke artist" lifestyle, and the "upper middle class"
lifestyle. Two separate cost distributions. If you try to take the mean or
median of these cities, you'll end up either arbitrarily landing on one of the
distributions, or a nonsense number in the middle.

A good example is Manhattan. For example, pizza can actually be cheaper in
Manhattan than Sofia. In Manhattan, the broke artist lifestyle of living with
multiple roommates who barely know each other, all sharing a rent controlled
apartment for a few hundred dollars a month is more socially acceptable and
much more common. Just taking prices from the realtor-controlled apartment
websites is a poor reflection of reality. Almost no one except the richer
consultants bothers with a full-time coworking desk in either city. In this
case, Manhattan can actually cost less than Sofia.

So, I think the "broke artist" price distributions would better reflect what a
remote working nomad would be looking for, instead of the "upper middle class"
prices.

~~~
gkop
May I ask where do you recommend in Sofia for cheap pizza?

~~~
simplyinfinity
most street corners in sofia have a slice for ~ 1$ (1.2lv up to 2 lv) i've
heard friends recommend the pizza around NDK & Vitosha buss stop but i haven't
tried it personally

------
peteretep
You need to include visa situation, because Bangkok is 3rd, but unless you're
planning to start a Thailand-based business via the BOI, you're working there
illegally if you don't have a work permit, and they're cracking down on all
sorts of visa irregularities at the moment.

~~~
jtheory
Assuming that you're working remotely for clients who are outside of Thailand,
is this actually a problem?

I've worked from various places while traveling, and never worried about this,
though obviously it would be an issue if you wanted to pick up _local_
clients.

~~~
peteretep
It is _absolutely_ a problem if you're working remotely for clients who are
outside Thailand.

Will you get caught? Probably not.

Will you get caught if you keep showing up at co-working spaces now the
government is cracking down on visas? Are you feeling lucky?

~~~
jtheory
Is there a time constraint?

E.g., before I had kids I spent a few months traveling from Western Europe
down to Turkey, working along the way -- probably in about 10 different
countries; countries don't reasonable expect you to file taxes if you happen
to do some remote work in them for a week, do they?

Obviously this will vary per-country, but I'm curious if you know how it would
play out in Thailand, at least, if you did everything by the book.

~~~
peteretep
Tax and work permit are different. In Thailand you need to be there more than
half the year before you need to declare income.

------
TheMagicHorsey
I don't know if I'm the first one to say this, but I have discovered that
Sebastapol, CA, which is an 1.5 hours north of San Francisco, has fiber
internet, and a significantly lower cost of living. Its also in a fairly
beautiful and wooded part of Northern CA. O' Reilly Associates is based there.

I'm surprised it isn't more jam packed with start ups.

Oh yeah ... there is nothing to do there. So you will have to just admire
nature and work. And then commute to SF for your meetings.

If this explodes in popularity, I hope someone will credit me for leaking the
secret.

~~~
dennisgorelik
Real estate prices in Sebastapol are still 3+ times higher than in most of the
United States.

~~~
TheMagicHorsey
You are right. It probably only seems reasonable to my eyes because I live in
San Francisco.

Perhaps Kansas City, with its Google Fiber and relatively mild climate, is a
better option overall.

------
optymizer
You need way more data points. I would add crime statistics to this for
example or probability of getting arrested and beaten by the local police, and
the average cost of bribing officials/administrative workers.

For example, Sofia is #5, but, having lived there for a few years, it is
absolutely not the #5 best choice, by far. That said, it's not a _bad_ choice,
it works for Telerik after all.

~~~
ajaxaddicted
"probability of getting arrested and beaten by the local police, and the
average cost of bribing officials/administrative workers" \- I don't know
where this is coming from. I've lived in Sofia for 6 years, never been
arrested or beaten or bribed anyone.

------
salih
As a Tunisian I feel obliged to put my 2 cents.

The cost of life is pretty cheap around here ($500/month is the average salary
for a teacher, the minimum income is around $200/m), and its getting cheaper
with the decline of the tunisian dinar Vs $ & €

I live near the cities of Sousse & Monastir, and i can share few thoughts:

\- rent for a decent apartement is about $300/m in the city and less than $200
outside

\- food is relatively cheap around here, with a wide variety of fresh fish

\- Monastir is a beatiful city, good climate, excellent beaches, the travel to
the aeroport cost less than15 min and 50 cent , with weekly/biweekly flights
to major european cities.

\- Tunisia is actually very safe and stable, major touristic
destinations(hammamat, sousse, monastir, djerba (which btw is a very decent
destination) are given more attention by the Interior minister.

\- internet quality is not on par with the 1st world, 8Mb cost around $40/ m

\- french is widely spoken, english is understood especially by youth

\- wikitravel have some good ( and accurate) articles about tunisia & tunisian
cities

~~~
Dartanion7
Would you say that Tunisia is safer than Morocco? I visited Morocco a few
years back and loved it; I wanted to extend my trip to Tunisia, but I was told
by a few people that I wouldn't be as safe there as the larger cities aren't
as focused on tourism as, say, Marakesch, Tangier, etc.

~~~
salih
I dont see any reason why you wouldnt be safe. USA lifted the travel alert for
Tunisia 2014. More than 6 million tourist entered Tunisia in 2013 (compared to
10M in morroco), the number is expected to be higher in 2014.

------
imjustsaying
Ho Chi Minh is almost twice as expensive as Hanoi? I didn't make it to Hanoi,
but everyone told me it was the more expensive of the two. HCM is really cheap
everywhere you go if you just stay out of the financial sector.

Keep in mind AirBNB doesn't seem to get sites below the $15 range, and a lot
of hotels that are in this range don't list on internet exchanges either. For
example in Ho Chi Minh there's a few decent airconditioned hotels next to Bui
Vien for $10 a night but you wont find them online. Also in Southeast Asia
I've found you can rent most everywhere for 30 days at a time, which in my
mind is short term when I consider all the minimum 12 month leases I had to
get in the US.

Good job though, I like that you're scraping other sites. This should be good
to use in conjunction with Numbeo, which has its own biases.

~~~
cageface
It's also very easy to find a room to rent for a month for $300 or less in
HCMC, even right in the center of District 1. I'm doing just that right now,
in fact, and have a serviced room in a very good location. It's been my
experience that Hanoi is generally more expensive in just about every respect
but I haven't spent as much time there.

Personally if I'm going to put up with the hassles of living as a nomad I want
to reap more of the benefits so I prefer to stay in cleaner, quieter beach
towns and enjoy the slower pace of life but some people like city life I
guess.

------
greggman
I'm curious where the data comes from? I see that it's a spreadsheet but how
is it verified?

For example, I don't know what the _average_ price of a co-working space is in
Tokyo but I do know that "The Terminal" in Harajuku is only $150 a month. It's
open from 11am to 11pm and includes free drinks (soda, coffee, tea).

Co-ba, has more than one location, the one in Shibuya is $160 a month and is
open 24 hours.

The Open Source Cafe in Shimokitazawa is tiny but also similarly priced as is
one I visited in Koenji (sorry, I forgot the name).

So, I'm curious where that $444 a month estimate comes from.

Rent is also iffy. It currently says $70 a day but rent varies widely
depending on your standards and how far out of the center you're willing to
live. I know people that have had a large 3bd apt for $1200 a month only 2
stops out various main lines on the express. (which might be like 12 local
stops). Whereas downtown it might be $1200 for a studio but then again it
depends on the quality. I know guys living in Nishi-Azabu for $600 a month.

~~~
robzyb
Hey there! I'm moving to Tokyo in September (from Australia) and I'm after any
tips that I can get :)

Mind if I comment hi-jack and ask if you know of any particularly good areas
that I should be looking to rent in? I'll be working close to Shinjuku
station.

Also, I will be working a day-job, but I hope to work on some side-projects
too. Where is a good quiet place to go and work?

Co-ba at $160/month is tempting, but I'm not sure that I'll be there often
enough to justify that cost. I was hoping that I'd be able to find cafes that
would fit the bill.

Thanks!

------
maga
As a nomad who wouldn't mind settling down, I'm actually more interested in a
place where I can register my company with prospects of becoming full-fledged
citizen in the future, preferably in somewhat colder regions of the planet.
I'm not entirely happy with my current passport, and working out of off-shores
doesn't do much good for that.

~~~
heyalexej
Derek Sivers (founder of CDBaby) created an amazing project that caters to
these needs: [https://woodegg.com/](https://woodegg.com/)

~~~
jarek
Not exactly colder regions of the planet, that...

------
narrator
Anyone listen to the "Travel Like A Boss" podcast? It's done by a guy living
in Chang Mai Thailand. He mainly interviews dropship entrepreneurs. It's crazy
because they are making $1500/month running these crappy little niche
dropshipping stores but living like someone making $10000/month or more in San
Francisco. They have maid service, live in full service buildings with rooftop
pools, eat out all the time. It's crazy how cheap things are over there.

~~~
morgante
> It's crazy because they are making $1500/month running these crappy little
> niche dropshipping stores but living like someone making $10000/month or
> more in San Francisco.

Sounds like they're living better than people making $10,000/month in SF.

------
visarga
Pleased to find my city - Bucharest - at the top of bandwidth and pretty
decent with regard to living cost, but 1312 EUR/month is absurd. I'd estimate
the living cost to $250 rent, $200 food, $20 internet and $20 mobile
voice+data = about $500/month. That is, if you rent a flat, buy food at
supermarkets, not if you spend all day in coffee shops and eat only at
restaurants.

~~~
anton-107
Is this rent price for an apartment in the center that you can find within one
week? Most european cities' centers are significantly more expensive than
suburbs/country side.

$250 is suspiciously cheap

~~~
oblio
If you want to live in the city center (i.e. 1km radius), then an apartment
will probably cost a bit more. But I'd say that withing a 3-5km radius $250 is
normal for longer term rent and probably $300-320 for something super quick.

But most of the people renting don't sign any contracts anyway so you can just
say that you'll stay for 1 year and pack your bags after 1-2-3 months, or as
long as you paid the deposit for.

------
tom_devref
What if you prefer colder climates? Not sure why the city should be penalized
for it. High temperatures make me less productive.

~~~
mbillie1
Not to mention some people are 'digital nomads' in order to explicitly pursue
other things in life like snow sports, mountaineering, etc., which tend to be
found in colder climates.

------
istorical
Hey guys I'm also building a similar service to this site, but more focused on
the qualitative than the quantitative:

[http://www.istorical.com](http://www.istorical.com)

------
angerman
Ok. The idea is great, but as other have also said, the figures seem way off.
Just two examples:

Basel being cheaper than Berlin? I have a hard time believing that.

But:

Hong Kong being cheaper than Leipzig? That just can't be true.

~~~
ondrasej
The price for Hong Kong looks weird, NomadCost per month in HK is roughly 350
EUR lower than the monthly rental costs. This is probably due to the very low
listed price of the hostel and budget hotel rooms.

------
codingdave
I get that this is made for short-term stays, and being truly nomadic. But I
think many of us who work remotely do it to allow us to leave the cities.
Building permanent roots in a small town is way cheaper and simpler, but that
isn't really covered here.

Also, one's own goals and personality have a lot more to do with the "best"
place to work from than the crunchable data does.

So I like the idea of compiling a list of great places to work remotely, but
I'm not sure this particular execution of that idea has a ton of value for me.

~~~
cageface
I'm a smaller city guy myself. Vietnam has a number of beach towns with very
good quality of life and low living costs. It does help a lot to learn a bit
of the language though.

------
noeltock
I like the concept for getting some new ideas, but it needs significantly more
information to be useful downstream. Having been nomading around for the past
year, there are things that are important to me (accomodation, gym, coworking,
good food) that are made easier/harder by various factors (proximity to each
other, cost, contract length, quality, etc.). There's no tool for that yet
(albeit excellent blog posts, not everything has to be made into an app I
guess).

------
jwblackwell
Love this! But I'm surprised not to see main Spanish cities on here. I took a
short trip to Seville and was amazed how cheap everything was (I live in
London).

There was an abundance of Airbnb accommodation, eating out was cheap and you
could get a bucket of beers for 5 euros in many places. About the same as a
pint in London.

I'd make this list a little more interactive, perhaps have a forum/comments
behind each city. Could become a really useful resource.

------
fauigerzigerk
Those european rent prices seem like a complete fantasy in some cases. Sure
you get all kinds of outliers in every city but rents in Paris, Dublin and
Berlin are certainly not the same. Paris is twice as expensive as Berlin, and
Dublin is somewhere in the middle.

This site has much more realistic numbers:
[http://www.numbeo.com/common/](http://www.numbeo.com/common/)

------
vog
I find it confusing that 1°C is displayed in red, but 31°C is displayed in
green (instead of bold red).

The temperature should be checked against an upper limit.

~~~
pieterhg
I previously had it opposite, but I wanted to show that green was good and red
was bed, also in terms of internet speed etc.

------
nikster
I live in Chiang Mai, which is listed #1 on the list - and yeah I'm here
because I love it.

But the picture you included is the White Temple in Chiang Rai. It's not in
Chiang Mai. Might as well put a picture of Chiang Mai there, particularly if
it's on the #1 spot. Not like Chiang Mai doesn't have any temples, there's
hundreds and hundreds of them ;)

------
davidw
Milan?!

Yuck. Worst city in Italy: it's expensive, polluted, crowded, and has little
of what makes Italy so nice in many other places.

Italians move there because it's the business capital of the country, and
there are jobs and money. But if you can live anywhere with a decent
connection... that's the last place I'd go.

~~~
pmontra
That's about the general feeling Italians have about Milan (I'm Italian, I've
been living there all my life), nevertheless they keep coming here :-)

If you can work and get your customers remotely you don't want to be in Milan,
but be careful about bad ADSLs in rural areas, which unfortunately are the
ones where you want to be. You might aim to one of the many medium sized
cities that are pretty everywhere. Look for one close to an airport, an high
speed train station, sea or mountains depending on your tastes.

By the way, Internet speed in Milan is 100 Mb/s download / 10 Mb/s upload if
you have fiber, or something up to 20 Mb/s with ADSL. Fiber really give you
those speeds, with ADSL it's up to your luck.

~~~
davidw
I live in Padova, and it's nice, although I think if someone isn't going to
spend a long time in Italy, and wants "the Italian experience", I'd go with
somewhere like Perugia, even if it's harder to get to. It is a beautiful area,
things work pretty well compared to farther south, the people are friendly,
and it's not too touristy.

------
homakov
You should also add "Visa" field. E.g. any american can live in Europe up to 3
months, but in Thailand it's just 1 m.

I lived in Bangkok for about a year, thought I love that city, now their visa
policy got stupid, and I would't recommend to settle there for long period (>3
months).

------
fookyong
To those in this thread saying you need an appropriate working visa to work in
these countries:

Have you ever worked for a company in Country A and been sent on a business
trip to Country B? Most likely your company didn't need a Country B working
visa for you, just for a business trip.

I am not a lawyer, but I don't see how the digital nomad lifestyle is any
different. If you're just spending short amounts of time in these countries,
legally how is this any different from going on a business trip since your
company and salary will be paid in the origin country.

I'm sure there's a cut off point, like once you go over a certain amount of
time it becomes harder to justify your trip as a short term business trip...
but what's that line?

~~~
stephenr
You aren’t a lawyer, and clearly don’t have (much) practical experience as a
foreign worker, and yet you still give out legal advice.

a) Some countries _do_ require a specific visa even just for a “business
meeting”. Often getting that visa will require documentation or an official
letter from a company either in your home/resident country or the country you
are visiting.

b) Some countries _do_ differentiate between a visit for “business” (such as
meetings) and a visit for “work” (as in actually _doing_ something)

~~~
fookyong
> You aren’t a lawyer, and clearly don’t have (much) practical experience as a
> foreign worker, and yet you still give out legal advice.

Ah hate to pull this card, but I've been an expat now for almost 14 years :)
worked in Japan and Singapore (legally, with correct working visa etc etc),
and just for this last year I've been a nomad flitting from country to
country.

You mention "some countries" \- sure some are stricter than others, but are
any of the countries you're talking about on this list?

It would be _insane_ for a country in Asia (except the ones still developing)
to have such requirements. It is entirely routine for folks from companies in
(for example) Singapore, to travel regionally for business on an extremely
frequent basis.

I normally frown upon making assumptions of people :) but since you assumed I
didn't have much practical experience as a foreign worker, I'm going to also
assume you haven't done much business in Southeast Asia.

~~~
stephenr
The country I have specific knowledge of is Thailand, which expressly states
visa-exemption entries are for tourism only, a business visa is required for
business trips (e.g. meetings) and a work permit (which also requires a
business visa) is required to work in the country legally. (There are
different laws covering the many labourers from neighbouring countries)

Please keep in mind I didn't say that every businessman/woman GETS a business
visa for meetings etc, I said thats what the law says they should do. Your
comment was about the "difference legally" between a business trip and a
foreign worker. Legally there is a difference between them, and legally
neither should be doing it on a tourism visa exemption.

I apologise for the assumption, as it turns out we were both wrong - I have
lived in Thailand coming up on 2 years. To work here legally I created a Thai
company. I have clients back in Australia and in Singapore.

------
chenster
Taipei is my top choice. The healthcare is excellent (and free) if you are a
Taiwan resident.

~~~
differentView
It is very inexpensive compared to the U.S., but it's not free.

~~~
lifeformed
I think it's like $10 a month? Plus all the services are super cheap. I went
to visit my family there, and went to a dentist for a cavity filling. It was
very clean and professional, as much as any dentist I've been to in the US.
The cost was $6.

At those prices it feels pretty much free. You no longer view health expenses
as this weird financial burden in your life; instead, it just financially
feels like buying a burrito or fixing your bike.

------
tet
Bucharest ~ $1800 is exaggerated, honestly, if you live alone $500 are more
than enough.

~~~
personlurking
I can say the same for Lisbon (€1368 on the list). I'm more of a resident here
but I spend under €400/mo (<$530) and live just fine (my own rented apt,
centrally located).

------
scriptdevil
It misses Bangalore, India. You could live a good life for $750.00 a month.
For an additional $35 a month, you can get a 60MBps internet connection.
Weather is pretty pleasant throughout the year. You could sample quite an
assortment of cuisines too. Meetups are fairly active as well. Negatives:
Traffic is terrible, but I stay indoors most of the time. Vendors do not speak
English, but the number of non-Indians is high and the one can speak in
English in any mid-sized shop. Disclaimer: I am an Indian, but am not a native
of Bangalore. I was initially resentful of having to stay in Bangalore, but of
late have started liking the city.

~~~
tomblomfield
There's a button to "Add your city"

------
Sly_llama
Anyone heard of Cluj, Romania? Probably not.

What if I told you it's the capital of Transylvania? Located 500 km from
Budapest, Belgrade, or Bucharest plus direct flights all over Europe. 20 km
from the western Carpathians (hence the lowest level of air pollution in
Europe) and some of the fastest bandwidth speeds on the planet. Not sure what
else you need for remote work.

Check out:
[http://www.bestcityineurope.com/](http://www.bestcityineurope.com/)

and

[http://ilovecluj.ro/2014/07/16-reasons-cluj-is-the-ideal-
cit...](http://ilovecluj.ro/2014/07/16-reasons-cluj-is-the-ideal-city-for-a-
new-start/)

------
woutr_be
A lot of these cities are only good if you are a local, for example in Hong
Kong it is almost impossible to get a working visa that allows you to work for
a remote company. I image in Japan it would probably be even harder.

~~~
pieterhg
Many nomads are actually registered with a Ltd in HK for tax purposes.

~~~
woutr_be
Being registered is one thing, getting an actual visa is quite difficult. (If
you are applying for your own visa that is)

------
wingerlang
I've lived in Bangkok the last 7 months and I spend approximately half the
stated sum.

I am by no chance saying that the sum is invalid, it is probably pretty damn
accurate (from what I've heard elsewhere).

Just mentioning that it is not the minimum. Not even I am at the minimum
because I have a /relatively/ expensive apartment. And I don't live on
breadcrumbs or anything like that :)

EDIT: As the reply posted by OP saying

> NomadCost is based on short-term staying in a hostel, hotel or apartment in
> the center, working in a coworking space and having a basic meal three times
> a day.

(I am not really close to that actual lifestyle)

------
dewey
Small bug:

I'm not able to switch the currency, it just shows pounds even though I
selected Euro in the dropdown menu at the top
([http://nomadlist.io/?l=eu](http://nomadlist.io/?l=eu))

~~~
pieterhg
Should be fixed now! I tried to make it static but that failed :)

~~~
dewey
That was quick. It's working as expected now!

------
hazelnut
Great idea, but I can't find any information about healthcare?

It might be great to live in Thailand where you have to spent just a little
for living but what happens if we compare this with their healthcare system?

~~~
moystard
I was going to suggest the same feature: healthcare and more generally public
services are a very important factor when deciding to settle somewhere. Too
bad most of these websites seem to think cost of living is the #1 factor.

~~~
ximi
I was thinking the same at first, but when you think about, the defining
feature of a digital nomad is that he moves from place to place and doesn't
permanently settle somewhere, so I can see how this isn't quite as important
as cost of living.

After all, if you don't like it in a place (or you're not happy with the
public services) you can just up and leave.

Having said that, it'd still be nice and make the data inherently more useful
to have additional data such as the quality of/access to healthcare (though
I'm not sure how easy it is to quantify that) or crime rates.

------
product50
For working remotely, another factor which should be considered is time zone.
It is very difficult to have a fruitful arrangement if you are always trying
to scramble for times in the wee hours..

~~~
czbond
Great point that makes a big difference to people looking to work with US
states. I can only imagine trying to find good internet at 2am for an issue if
it's business hours in the US.

------
randomflavor
Local main language should be included?

~~~
sjwright
Or to be more practical for the anglo-centric HN audience, the percentage of
population which can speak English.

~~~
randomflavor
well it's nice to know the lang.. mebbe ill take it or know it or have a
cousin that speaks it.

------
TwiztidK
This comment will probably get overlooked, but how do you get into the
"digital nomad" lifestyle? Basically, what kind of work allows you operate
100% remotely? Thanks.

~~~
SyneRyder
Anything where you just need a laptop & internet should work. Indie software
development is one option. Back when shareware was the big thing there were a
few nomads, Trygve Inda springs to mind and got a mention in a CNN article:

[http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2...](http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/08/01/100138820/index.htm?postversion=2007080610)

Some folks do it with blogging (lots of bloggers do it funded by ads & e-book
sales), mobile app development, web design & admin, content development, even
some online consulting (bonus points if you're prepared to fly to meet
clients).

If you're lucky you can even talk your employer into it. There are some
enlightened ones who allow remote work. But being a 100% Digital Nomad is
probably too extreme for an employment situation.

------
alessioalex
Bucharest is way undervalued. The internet speed can easily be 1Gb/s for
around 15$ I think, while the montly costs for living should be around 1000$
at most in my opionion.

~~~
oblio
Renting a decent 1 bedroom apartment is about 350 dollars. 1Gbps costs 20
dollars, and it includes TV subscription (I think it includes HBO too), a
fixed phone line and a 3G SIM card and/or USB stick.

The cost of living is definitely less than 1000 dollars. After all the average
salary in Bucharest is probably less than 1000 dollars per month, so we
wouldn't be able to live here if it cost more, would we? :)

~~~
ghiculescu
Bucharest confuses me. Walking around the city you see more luxury cars
(mostly BMWs) per capita than almost any other European capital. But the
median wage is 1000 Euros. None of the locals I've asked (friends, family,
etc.) ever have a solid answer, so maybe the internet can help.

~~~
dublinben
The cars are stolen. They've been brought in from more western parts of
Europe.

~~~
oblio
Not all of them. I'd say that the majority are just second hand purchases.

Of course, they can't afford to really maintain them, so once a major
component breaks down... they're probably out of luck and have to sell the car
for parts or something.

------
bdickason
This is a great idea. I've been working from Sardegna (an island off the coast
of Italy/Spain) and have barely been able to hold a skype connection to my
office in NYC, even from most big cities.

I would have loved if someone went through and found great internet spots in
each city (and even out in the country in some tourist-y spots) in advance so
I could follow in their footsteps!!

Even at the least - letting me know that Vodafone is the best connectivity in
the South, but sketchy in the northeast.

~~~
Habesha
May be expand this hotel wifi speed ranking to local spots?
[https://www.hotelwifitest.com/](https://www.hotelwifitest.com/)

------
dm2
Why would being in the center of the city be important? I would think average
anywhere in the city would be more reasonable.

I would also like to see the costs of a 2 bedroom apartment. I'd personally
rather have an office in my apartment than a co-op space.

What would the price of a small house be within 10 miles of the city?
(question that could be added)

How is the NomadCost calculated? These numbers don't add up:
[http://nomadlist.io/?hn](http://nomadlist.io/?hn)

~~~
heyalexej
Most digital nomads I met in years prefer to stay close to where things are
happening. Namely, where they have convenient access to food, coffee shops,
gyms, coworking spaces, public transport, meeting other like minded people
etc. and lastly to not lose tons of valuable time due to long commute to
places of interest. I think that's what the project is aiming at. Cost of
living for those "edge cases" vary even more than what's discussed in this
thread and it'd be damn hard to find common ground. But to answer your
question: costs for a setup like you suggest/prefer may literally be half of
what city center life would be.

~~~
dm2
How do people deal with moving costs? I have a lot of random stuff that I
"need" or would like to have but at the same time I'd be very interested in
traveling and working remotely for a year or two.

It would be nice if you also had a "dog friendly/accessible" metric, that's
part of the reason why living in a city center isn't reasonable for me
personally, I need green spaces rather than tall buildings.

~~~
MichaelTieso
I've been working remotely and traveling around the world for the last 5
years. I found I don't really need that much stuff and travel quite often. I'm
finally settling in Seattle but still will be moving around often. Not having
"stuff" helps a lot.

~~~
personlurking
"I've been working remotely and traveling around the world for the last 5
years. I found I don't really need that much stuff and travel quite often." x2

Being minimalist helps, of course. Major items: Clothes and computer. The rest
is minor/small.

------
jeremyirony
Kek, since when Israel is in Europe?

~~~
jarek
1991, at least as far as UEFA is concerned

~~~
hcho
If you take your geographical advice from football federations; Australia is
in Asia.

------
micro_cam
Very cool. To broaden the appeal I would consider expanding to include things
like recreational opportunities. I spent some time road tripping around the us
rock climbing and working remotely and know others who have done the same.

Knowing which small towns near climbing areas (or ski areas, or whitewater
rivers, or national parks, or whatever) have reasonable coffee shops, hostels,
camping etc would have been very valuable.

I guess some of this could be done by integrating a wiki or something.

~~~
cpursley
Agree. Cost of living is important. But things like recreation, food and
community are really what make a location special. A walkability factor would
be nice as well.

------
brc
As someone a bit further up the snakes and ladders board than a lot of younger
nomadic types, I woudo like to see a specialised house swapping community
around remote workers. This woudo be houses with necessary workspaces,
connections and the like. I would happily swap for periods of time during the
year, but with dependents in tow. This type of thing woudo be excellent for
relocating into time zones suitable for specific projects.

------
splitforce
Next step is to take some input about user preferences and generate a
personalized ranking of places to go. Here's a quick stab at building a
'personalized' desirability index:
[https://docs.google.com/a/splitforce.com/spreadsheets/d/1u-6...](https://docs.google.com/a/splitforce.com/spreadsheets/d/1u-6ux3bTytFlaBliXTKu5kWyKzEnVhmB9Ph2DC9n2NA/edit#gid=0)

------
skrebbel
Nice! I have some reservations about some of the data though; f.ex. I have a
hard time to believe that SF has only slightly higher costs of living than
Berlin.

~~~
pieterhg
It really depends, the NomadCost is based on staying there for a month, and
not being able to rent long-term. So you'll be staying in private rooms in
hostels, low-end hotels and CL/AirBnB apts.

Finding a cheap place in East Berlin for a long-term is definitely a viable
option. But not if you move around as fast as digital nomads do.

~~~
sveme
All true, but 90 Euros for a private hostel room strikes me as way too much -
a quick search on hostels.com
([http://www.hostels.com/berlin/germany?dateFrom=2014-07-31&da...](http://www.hostels.com/berlin/germany?dateFrom=2014-07-31&dateTo=2014-08-03&guestCount=1&homepageSearchType=dropdown#roomTypes=single))
indicates something like 55,- Euros as the median prize. Mind, that's absolute
high season right now.

Have you thought about crowdsourcing the data entry?

~~~
lhl
It looks like the prices for Berlin are a bit more reasonable on the
spreadsheet now (but not the site yet), but yeah, considering there were 1000+
<€30/night listings just on AirBnB when I was looking last month... it seems
like there needs to be a better way to sample/get prices that's more
representative. The methodology/approach is somewhat flawed (I also just spent
a couple months in Tokyo earlier this year there's some discrepancies there
that others have pointed out as well).

------
danesparza
I love the idea.

I notice that the only factors used don't seem to mention any political
unrest. For example, the top rated city seems to be in Thailand... which has
experienced a lot of political unrest recently:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand#2013.E2.80.932014_poli...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand#2013.E2.80.932014_political_crisis)

~~~
szukai
The political unrest doesn't really effect day to day living at all for
Thailand.

You can read up about it, the latest round actually has a lot of online posts
talking about how "tourist friendly" the military was (no joke).

------
dzhiurgis
Great initiative, but I would add more smaller cities. Also temperature should
have some sort of average. Surely it's not great to live in a scorching heat
all the time.

That said, I dream one day to work remotely from a live aboard sailboat.
Connectivity could be somewhat a problem, but 3G covers a lot of globe and if
you are smart enough, living aboard can be very cheap.

------
maxinnos
Anyone interested in joining a startup in Chiang Mai, we are based there and
connect developers / designers / business folks to others in the area as well.
[http://tropicaldev.com/jobs/](http://tropicaldev.com/jobs/). We are always
hiring!

PM if curious about the area, or if you want intros to others here

------
hal9000xp
Good idea! But you have to add a visa information for each country.

For example, I like Hong Kong, but you can't stay there more than 2 weeks (if
you want stay more, you have to get work permit/get married/have business
there etc).

But Thailand afaik is easy country for living for a long time without work
permit.

~~~
cageface
Thailand has been clamping down on tourist visa abuse lately and working there
in any capacity, even if your business is entirely online and outside Thailand
is illegal. You might get away with it but you're definitely taking your
chances. Getting a proper work permit there is quite expensive and difficult.

Cambodia and Vietnam are much laxer in this regard but also don't offer the
same standard of living.

~~~
megablast
Eh, it is pretty common to Visa runs inside and outside of Thailand, the same
day. Pain in the ass, but not a problem. Maybe 5 or 6th time they might get a
bit uptight about it. But you could just spend some extra time in Malaysia or
Laos or Vietnam.

~~~
cageface
I'm seeing reports of people getting denied with only two previous re-entries:

[http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/744129-denied-entry-
at-k...](http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/744129-denied-entry-at-krabi-
airport/)

Hua Hin authorities also just declared that foreigners must carry _original_
passports at all times. I definitely don't like the way this recent visa
crackdown has been going and have canceled my own plans to visit.

------
riffraff
I honestly cannot imagine how you may end up spending 2000$/month to live in
budapest.

I got by with 400€ for years.

------
thom_nic
I would think crime rate should factor into this as well. It's at least as
important as weather.

~~~
homakov
+1, wouldn't recommend Brazil if you love your life

~~~
scardine
I live at Sao Paulo (damn expensive) but it is not that dangerous - like many
other big cities, there are places you should avoid to walk alone at night.

~~~
homakov
i was in Sao Paulo few days ago, well, comparing to Singapore it's like 100
times more dangerous

------
gdilla
This is great! Request - could you add the ability to choose your city and
normalize the others? Example, I live in NYC, and I want to consider a move,
how much cheaper is it? So if NYC cost is normalized to 1, then I can quickly
understand the relationship to other places.

------
megablast
Vang Vieng in Laos was the cheapest place I lived. Less than A$10 a day for
hotel with my own room, internet, food and drinks. And it was a really
beautiful place. All the restaurants had wifi, so you could sit and work there
all day, overlooking amazing limestone cliffs.

~~~
MichaelTieso
A lot easier now without all the crazy tubing I'm sure.

------
dalerus
Added Phnom Penh to your list.

If you're a remote worker it's great place. In the city most people speak
English, huge expat community, USD is the main currency, stable internet, a
few co-working spaces, amazingly cheap to live, and a business visa is no
problem.

~~~
cageface
I spent four months in Phnom Penh over the last year or so and overall I'd
agree it's not a bad place at all. Downsides are stinky trash everywhere,
pedestrian-unfriendly streets, and a generally dodgy and unsafe vibe later at
night. I think if I go back to Cambodia for another extended stay I'll try
Siem Riep.

Personally I prefer Vietnam but Cambodia is definitely a good option too.

~~~
notahacker
If you like the quiet life Battambang is very pleasant. As for Siem Reap, I
guess if you stayed for long enough the hawkers would start to recognise you.

~~~
cageface
Haven't been to Battambang but it's on my list of places to check out. I'd be
quicker to explore places like that if I spoke some Khmer. I prefer traveling
in Vietnam generally because I can speak the language well enough now.

------
espitia
Awesome project! I've passed by many of the cities mentioned in Asia and I
have to agree with most of what is up on top of the list. Specially Chiang
Mai. I spent a 2 weeks up there and enjoyed it a lot. Met a lot of great
people as well.

------
simonebrunozzi
I am not able to add a city - I can open the spreadsheet but it's not
editable.

------
wnscooke
There have been some suggestions to add more about visas... the true nomad
really should be getting that information as directly as possible and not
relying on a website like this, however helpful and handy it is.

------
pvnick
Bookmarked. You may not see this comment, but I'm planning to travel and work
remotely for a couple years after I graduate at the end of the year, and I
think something like this will help a lot. Thank you!

------
abuteau
Sidenote: [http://teleport.org/](http://teleport.org/) Try to do something
like that, but not crowdsourced. It's from Sten Tamkivi a16z entrepreneur in
residence.

------
lolizbak
Great work. How can people act on the info on specific cities ? There should
be a way to balance wrong/right/... for variables that are subjective
(weather, friendliness to foreigners, ....)

~~~
pieterhg
Right now it's crowdsourced from an open Google spreadsheet at
[http://nomadlist.io/edit/](http://nomadlist.io/edit/)

Later I'd like to implement so that it uses baseline values from multiple
inputs (e.g. like Numbeo does)

------
billrobertson42
Some of the text is so low-contrast that I can't read it.

~~~
CalRobert
This could be even more problematic for vision-impaired readers. Low contrast
text should be avoided out of consideration for those with less than perfect
sight, even if it looks "cool".

------
nrzuk
Very nice :) Hopefully packing up in a months time and starting to work
remotely so a list like this will certainly come in handy when investigating
the next stop!

------
AliAdams
I'm not sure where the data is coming from but I'm not convinced Bangkok is
worthy of 5/5 stars for safety at the moment.

------
radikal_shit
Could you, please, add option to change temperature view to Celsius and
integrate option to recalculate $ to several major currencies?

------
elwell
The differentiation between [click to view larger photo] and [click text to go
to city's page] threw me off for a few minutes.

------
wasyl
Costs of living are definitely way off, I live in Wroclaw, you can easily live
comfortably for $1000, probably even less

~~~
adambard
I think this site calculates the cost of living as a transient; staying in
short-term accommodation, eating meals out, etc. The spread sheet specifically
asks for the costs of meals and hotel rooms, which is probably why it skews
high.

------
progx
I was wondering when you have time to work, most of the time you travel and
seeking hotels, internet, startups, ...

------
dberglu
Awesome idea -- Tim Ferris would love it.

------
itisbiz
Nice, I like the grid presentation. Looks Bootstrap responsive table? What are
you using for the column sort?

------
coppolaemilio
Chiang Mai? You clearly haven't been there! It's nice for a holiday but not
for living.

~~~
heyalexej
Chiang Mai can be one of the best locations to bootstrap a biz by many many
factors. There are hundreds of entrepreneurs in varying stages at any given
time. I've met ex-Googlers, ex-Applers, developers, consultants, writers,
artists etc. etc.. It's a cheap and convenient place to live and focus.
Depending on your budget, you can have whatever you please as far as standards
go. A quick search on Google will show you that even mass media picked up on
CM as a location for digital nomads.

~~~
yodsanklai
I spent some time in Thailand, including Chiang Mai, and it didn't strike me
as a haven for driven individuals. Most expats I met there were more
interested in prostitutes and beers than starting businesses or work. There
are also huge inequalities between the people living there. Overall, I found
Chiang Mai more depressing than stimulating.

But maybe things are different when you really settle down.

~~~
nikster
You must have been to the wrong places, dude. The "sexpat" scene here is very
small really - you'd have to go to Pattaya or Phuket for that. And also these
people don't exactly follow you around, you find them in certain areas - and
you'll never meet them outside those areas.

------
noahtkoch
Damn dude, nice work, I've been following your developments on
/r/digitalnomads

~~~
simonswords82
Tried to head over to /r/digitalnomads and it's banned?

~~~
jawngee
[http://www.reddit.com/r/digitalnomad](http://www.reddit.com/r/digitalnomad)

------
adamzerner
What are the important cultural differences between Chiang Mai and, say New
York?

------
pistoriusp
The HackerNews logo in the footer is also really pretty, did you also make
that?

------
neoseesor
nicee pieterhg 3 days ago | link

Hi HN! I made this. Here's some info on the data before everyone goes berzerk
:) pieterhg 3 days ago | link

Hi HN! I made this. Here's some info on the data before everyone goes berzerk
:)

------
lotsofcows
Nice. Although I'd write the first four off on temperature alone...

------
wslh
You can live in Buenos Aires for half the price in the nomad list.

~~~
rabble
I think what he did was take the official exchange rate. I live on that amount
(or a bit more), but i've got two kids in private school, a house with a pool,
house keeper, etc.. It's important to use the real exchange rate not the
official one.

------
mmanfrin
SF is 3/5 for safety? Where's that metric coming from.

------
patmcguire
I'm calling nonsense on Omaha costing more than Tokyo.

------
jeromegv
Anybody can vouch for Philippines? Which city is the best?

~~~
Paul12345534
I like Cebu City but the internet is not always as stable as what you might
find in the US.

------
motormanwrithes
super useful resource I'm sure, and I'd like to chat ideas to monetize, or at
least capitalize on the knowledge too.

Is it cool to share this?

@motormanwrithes MANILA - LONDON - LA

------
AlexNeoNomad
I knew that Chiang Mai would've been there surely.

------
benwoodward
What do the points in the left-most column represent?

------
rockdiesel
How is Omaha more expensive than Tokyo?

------
tanmay007
This is going to be so useful!

------
gear54rus
Fahrenheit, seriously?:(

Good concept though.

------
SchizoDuckie
I'm sorry but 2950 for living in Amsterdam for a month, that's insane.

------
adammcnamara
Thanks for sharing.

------
Dewie
Using Fahrenheit (the degrees column for each city) as a measurement isn't
very _international_.

------
67726e
Are there any good resources in getting the appropriate visa/permit to work in
foreign countries? I just got the go-ahead to work remote and I'm looking into
working abroad, but information on remote working and the appropriate visas
seem few and far in between.

To those that have done it, where do you look/who do you ask when looking for
this type of information? Do you just get ahold of someone at the appropriate
embassy/consulate or is there some service you can pay for to assist with the
process?

~~~
CalRobert
This is a really broad question, and it depends largely on where you're from,
where you want to go, and what you want to do. Can you elaborate? If you just
want to have a good time for a while I'd check out whether your country has
working holiday visa arrangements with any other countries.

~~~
67726e
For me personally, I'm looking at Europe. I'm coming from America so I could
possibly get away with 3 month stints on a Schengen visa, but I've been
looking for long-term 6-12 months.

I'm just starting to look into this though, so general
tips/resources/strategies for getting the proper permits is always a plus.

As an aside, I'd never heard the term "Working Holiday" before so that in and
of itself is a new avenue of approach.

~~~
CalRobert
I've begun work on something for someone just like you, because that was me
two years ago. [http://www.pond-crosser.com/](http://www.pond-crosser.com/).
It's not much at the moment but I hope it becomes a useful resource. You might
find the following interesting:

Irish Working Holiday Program Dutch American Friendship Treaty German Blue
Card (Need a job in Germany, but those are supposed to be easy to get and the
Blue Card gives you freedom to live and work in the EU after only three
years).

Also, it's true you can bounce between Schengen and non-Schengen Europe, but I
wouldn't assume immigration officers will always be delighted with you. Drop
me a line at the email address in my profile if you want to talk more.

------
tiatia
I don't see this as very useful. People are different, so are countries.
Internet is very relative. Can be extremely slow and extremely fast in one
city. Beijing 20 MBPS? Really? Maybe when you are torrenting or using Baidu.
The Eardex Index [http://flyingdutchman.co/cost-living-world-wide-
county/](http://flyingdutchman.co/cost-living-world-wide-county/) provides
more info. But even this is like selecting you girl friend based on numbers.

~~~
lucaspiller
> Internet is very relative. Can be extremely slow and extremely fast in one
> city.

My experience has been the same. Maybe it could hook into
[https://www.hotelwifitest.com/](https://www.hotelwifitest.com/), but even
that isn't too accurate.

The hotel I'm staying in at the moment (well known business brand) provides
2Mbps, but I can get 50Mbps over 4G. The only issue is that data is very
expensive here, so I can blow $40 worth of data in 2 minutes at that speed :D
For coding that's fine, but if you are doing video editing or such you'll
probably want something faster and more data.

------
imaginenore
Cost of living by city:

[http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/rankings_current.jsp](http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/rankings_current.jsp)

------
jahitr
Those numbers are all made up.

