
High Court: The Pirate Bay must be blocked by UK ISPs - udp
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17894176
======
MattBearman
The ruling is mostly full of shit:

    
    
      Sites like The Pirate Bay destroy jobs in the UK and undermine investment in new British artists
    

I'd like to see evidence to back this up, innocent until proven guilty and
all.

    
    
      The Pirate Bay infringes copyright on a massive scale
    

No, it doesn't. TPB doesn't provide any content at all. Not only that, but it
also provides links to non-copyright infringing material. Eg: Some of Nine
Inch Nails recent releases have been legally made available over bittorrent in
24/96 high quality.

    
    
      Its operators line their pockets by commercially exploiting music and other creative works
    

According to wikipedia, TPB earnings in 2006 were $102,035.05 US, and expenses
in 2009 were $112,590.40 US (couldn't find data for the same year) but they
can't be making a huge amount of profit on those margins.

But the thing that really gets me is our government giving itself power to
censor the internet.

~~~
citricsquid
> No, it doesn't. TPB doesn't provide any content at all. Not only that, but
> it also provides links to non-copyright infringing material. Eg: Some of
> Nine Inch Nails recent releases have been legally made available over
> bittorrent in 24/96 high quality.

And my drug dealer gave $50 to a pregnant woman so that she could get a taxi
to the hospital.

If you want to argue why this ruling is wrong you should address the issues of
censorship, arguing that The Pirate Bay _isn't_ a site built around copyright
infringement (which it is and the founders openly admit this) just does a dis-
service to the real problem here (censorship). TPB is a for-profit copyright
infringement enabling enterprise, that's why it exists, arguing otherwise is
not worth your energy (because ultimately, what does it matter if it enables
copyright infringement or not? So do most websites that _don't_ intend on
doing that) instead argue that any government should not be disabling access
to a website.

~~~
corin_
The issue is not with censorship, it's with what they are censoring. Very few
people here would take issue with this court order if it was about a site that
exclusively hosted child porn. Therefore yes, the context of "is what TBP does
illegal?"

To extend your (frankly poor) metaphor, he wouldn't be a drug dealer if all he
did was hold up a sign pointing you towards your nearest drug dealers and he
never actually gave you any drugs.

~~~
citricsquid
Child pornography: illegal Copyright infringement: illegal

censoring child porn websites: right, censoring copyright infringement
website: wrong.

Not sure I understand the difference? Either you're for censorship of
websites, or you're against it, you can't pick and choose.

~~~
baddox
Child pornography: should be illegal

Copyright infringement: should not be illegal

~~~
kaolinite
Copyright infringement _should_ and _must_ be illegal but it also _must_ be
put into perspective. Using copyright infringement to justify censorship,
deportation of citizens, multi-million-dollar fines and lifetime prison
sentences - that's a symptom of a broken judicial system and governments with
bad priorities / corruption.

Downloading films + music for personal use? Should get warnings and eventually
a small fine if the issue persists (not £X per file downloaded - a download !=
a sale).

Commercial copyright infringement? Large scale should result in a few years of
jailtime at the most + seized profits. Smaller scale should vary but should be
lenient with profits seized.

~~~
zanny
Every argument against copyright infringement assumes there is some evil
destitute world on the other side of having it in place.

We have never in the modern age in any modern first world country ever had an
extended time WITHOUT copyright to see what would happen. Everyone just
assumes every artist, developer, and investor would disappear overnight and
everyone would turn to stone as content is freely distributed.

Or maybe we would just go massive kickstarter style (with some kind of
contract guarantees unlike the current system) where the funds people have pay
people to make the stuff they want, which is then free for everyone to consume
since it is free to reproduce.

It is broken to control content at the distribution level when distribution
and replication cost nothing. A really, really import thing to consider - the
people who consume currently copyrighted material do not have infinite funds
to consume. They spend their disposable income on limited selections of
copyrighted materials. If they didn't have to pay for them, but knew their
funds were needed to see that future works were created, they would not go buy
15 cars over 3 years and have nothing to watch on tv, they would give money to
the shows and artists they like.

There MIGHT be a slight recession if that happened though, because without the
"need" to pay for the things people want, they might take the time to pay off
massive debts they have or get a savings buffer. But they could already do
that, they just don't have the self restraint to. And if feeding off the
inability of people to manage their own lives effectively is the only way for
MAFIAA affiliates to stay in business, perhaps they should fail.

At that, why don't they fail? Of all the industries, film has been subject to
upheaval approximately never. For the last century the big 5 have been
established and held their power base with an iron grip. Independent film is
nothing compared to them, indie games vs publishers is not even close to as
bad as that situation. The major movie studios have no competition to theaters
besides outside media forces but never to competitive "startups" because they
control the market.

~~~
anigbrowl
_Or maybe we would just go massive kickstarter style (with some kind of
contract guarantees unlike the current system) where the funds people have pay
people to make the stuff they want, which is then free for everyone to consume
since it is free to reproduce._

The Kickstarter model works fantastically well for creative people that
already have a following/track record.For someone trying to connect with an
audience the first time, not so much.

 _At that, why don't they fail? Of all the industries, film has been subject
to upheaval approximately never. For the last century the big 5 have been
established and held their power base with an iron grip. Independent film is
nothing compared to them, indie games vs publishers is not even close to as
bad as that situation. The major movie studios have no competition to theaters
besides outside media forces but never to competitive "startups" because they
control the market._

Not so: the biggest jolt to the industry was antitrust regulation in the
1940s, as discussed here - though paradoxically, in a way that's vaguely
supportive of censorship:
<http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=178>

~~~
Flimm
_The Kickstarter model works fantastically well for creative people that
already have a following/track record. For someone trying to connect with an
audience the first time, not so much._

The restrictive copyright model works fantastically well for creative people
that already have a following/track record. For someone trying to connect with
an audience the first time, not so much. Even the few musicians who hit it big
with a debut album have actually worked very hard beforehand to persuade a
record label to sign them, with very little reward.

~~~
anigbrowl
Not necessarily true. The label era was dominated by intermediaries (managers,
A&R specialists), but those intermediaries were constantly in search of new
bands to promote. Many musicians (authors, filmmakers, your_medium_here) don't
necessarily have the skills or desire to become experts in publishing and
distribution, and the breakdown of existing models also means the breakdown of
cross-subsidization for less commercially oriented acts. There are pros and
cons to both models; I'm just objecting to the idea that the new publishing
landscape is in all ways better than the old.

~~~
base698
"don't necessarily have the skills or desire to become experts in publishing
and distribution,"

They don't have to be experts, they just have to be good enough. If the
decision is 100% of profits goto a label or 30% go to Apple if I just learn
how to use iTunes, I think they'll choose iTunes...

Publishing means to make public and that isn't anything special any more, it's
been commoditized.

------
Tim-Boss
Within minutes of any major ISP implementing a "block" a few thousand people
will post on facebook/twitter/blogs and websites links to the plethora of
proxies/TOR tunnels/Open DNS settings and VPN's that will instantly negate any
ISP level "block" (sarcastic quotes intentional).

This will cost british ISP's hundreds of thousands or millions of pounds to
implement and manage, and will at best only delay any would-be knock-off-nigel
30 seconds or so while he learns about proxies et. al. and configures a
browser.

Security theatre at its worst...THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!

~~~
btian
Tor is getting more and more useful. It doesn't take much to mirror TPB with
magnetic links tbh

------
DanI-S
At the risk of hyperbole: Lobbying is a catalyst for the destruction of
democracy, and should be cut and cauterised from our civilization like the
cancer that it is.

Anybody running on the platform of diminishing the corporate voice to its
legitimate, proportional volume would certainly have my vote.

Whether or not piracy is morally excusable, I am certain this form of
legislation is not what the British public wants.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _Lobbying is a catalyst for the destruction of democracy_ //

As anyone is allowed to lobby I don't think this is true. In our
representative "democracy" though it doesn't seem that MPs are required to act
in a representative way. That, IMO, is what destroys the idea of democracy.

If a company lobbies an MP it shouldn't make any difference. It should be the
people of the MP's constituency that the company needs to lobby so that they
can alter the opinions of the people that the MP is supposed to be
representing.

------
alan_cx
Does any body really still use TPB as a first stop site? It is usually my site
of last resort. To me this is a bit like some weirdo government still freaking
out about Rock 'n Roll and Punk Rockers.

~~~
bricestacey
TPB is my first stop. I've always used private music trackers, but never found
much need for it with video (quality is less important and I don't want to
deal with seed requirements).

------
tomp
> "The biggest culprits of this, really, are the younger demographic who just
> haven't been convinced that doing this is somehow morally uncomfortable.

This.

Good luck with that. More probably, when the "younger demographics" grow older
and get more voting power, they will likely vote /against/ such corporate
tyranny. This means that the music industry has some 20 or so more years of
prosperity, at most.

------
TomGullen
It doesn't particularly concern me that this particular website is being
blocked, as it's purpose is pretty obvious. Blocking it is laughably futile
but it does send a clear message out.

What does concern me though is that this is a foot in the door for the
government to block other websites they object to in the future.

~~~
k-mcgrady
"it's purpose is pretty obvious".

I don't think that's true. Clearly a lot of copyrighted material is downloaded
from the site but there is a also a lot of material linked to legally. For
example they now promote independent artists on their homepage who have
content available on the pirate bay. Nine Inch Nails have a huge collection of
unedited concert footage available. Open source software and Linux distros are
available.

I think the 'linking to content is illegal' thing really needs to be seriously
examined. Are they going to block Google next? Where is the line?

(And I'm saying this as someone who pays for content and really only does
download legal content from TPB).

~~~
anigbrowl
That's a bit like saying your historical pirate ship (the kind with sails,
cannons and so on) has a cook on board to feed the crew, so it should really
be considered as a floating restaurant and the plundering and sinking of other
vessels is incidental to that.

~~~
Monotoko
I love that analogy and want to vote you up... but I don't agree with what
you're saying XD

~~~
yariang
At the risk of being meta; I think you should vote up when someone contributes
to a discussion in a meaningful way, regardless of server you agree or not.

------
andr3w321
I hate the whole ethical argument when it comes to copyright infringement. The
fact is an unenforceable law is pointless and should not be law. I don't know
what the solution is -- and I wish people would spend more time debating and
talking about a workable solution rather than complaining, but blocking sites
that link or illegally host copyrighted content will not solve a thing.
Remember when illegal music downloads stopped after napster got shutdown? Oh
wait, a hundred more files sharing clients just took it's place.

~~~
dkersten
The workable solution is for content producers to take a long hard look at
their business models to see if maybe they can profit without criminalizing a
large percentage of the population.

------
drucken
Next up: ban Google (including its torrentable Custom Search Engine), Bing and
all other search engines listing torrents? Or just ban all search engines
except those sanctioned by BPI/MPAA etc.?

The irony is that at this point The Pirate Bay is just a collection of merely
90MB of magnet links which can be downloaded anywhere on the Internet in the
blink of an eye.

~~~
rmc
_The Pirate Bay is just a collection of merely 90MB of magnet links which can
be downloaded anywhere on the Internet in the blink of an eye._

Someone made a torrent of the torrents on the Pirate Bay (at one point).

Here's the magnet link:

    
    
      magnet:?xt=urn:btih:938802790a385c49307f34cca4c30f80b03df59c&dn=The+whole+Pirate+Bay+magnet+archive&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ccc.de%3A80

~~~
glogla
That's interesting. Is there way to get actual version of this?

~~~
burgerbrain
Paste that link into your favourite (up to date) torrent client.

~~~
glogla
Yes, and then you get a database in a simple no quotes | separated file.
Someone presumably got this from piratebay servers. What I'm asking is who and
how.

EDIT: though I'm realizing now, that "actual" in English might mean something
else than I wanted to say. What I meant (and in my language sounds very much
like actual) is probably better described as "current".

~~~
rmc
I think someone scrapped it and created that torrent. You might be asking for
some sort of distributed automatically up to date database of pirate bay
torrents. That would be cool to have, but its not possible with magnet links
like that. The magnet link is based on the content of the file(s). If someone
were to upload a new torrent, then the contents of the database changes and
the hash changes, and the magnet link changes.

------
anons2011
Are we trying to emulate China or Iran? Obviously a block like this for any
tech-savvy person is absolutely meaningless.

~~~
rmc
The UK has also censored Wikipedia in the past.

~~~
dabeeeenster
Really? Link?

~~~
njs12345
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Watch_Foundation_and_W...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Watch_Foundation_and_Wikipedia)

------
josscrowcroft
This has to be a classic example of closing the stable doors after the horse
has bolted.

They're scrabbling around, trying desperately and litigiously to cling on to
whatever semblance of the pre-internet golden years they can, but it's too
late. _We've got a taste for free shit._

For better or worse - it's not going anywhere. They'd have to cut off our
hands to stop us from getting what we want.

The worst part? The harder they make it, the less likely I am to feel _good_
about paying for content.

------
dafunnie
Didn't they try to block porn sites last year? David Cameron ostensibly
proclaimed that 'porn sites corrupt the British nation' or something in that
vein. The UK is beginning to get a tad too draconian for the 21st century.

~~~
drucken
I think they are still trying.

There is an on-going tabloid newspaper campaign where they are trying to force
the ISPs and politicians (especially the opposition) to adopt or commit to an
"opt-in" for porn on Internet connections. That is, the default would be
required that ISPs take on the cost and legal culpability to block porn.

~~~
fredley
Ironically, most of these tabloid newspapers publish pornography themselves,
and staunchly defend their right to do so.

------
cnbeuiwx
The dark forces behind these organisations couldnt care less about music being
pirated. What they really want is a censored, controlled internet where free
speach is not anonymous.

You have to understand that the Internet is the only medium not built as a
pyramid, where you can control the entire pyramid by controlling the leader.
Nobody controls the entire Internet today, so its quite scary for the dark
ones. Despite all their power and money, they cant stop the free flow of
information on the Internet.

------
pbhjpbhj
I can't stand it.

How can the BBC claim to be impartially reporting copyright infringement when
they call it "piracy"?

It's illegal, it's often immoral, it's not shooting people and stealing their
stuff though and sufficiently different, in a moral sense, to make such a
claim preposterously immoral in itself.

~~~
NLips
'Piracy' is as valid a term as 'copyright infringement':
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#.22Pirac...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#.22Piracy.22)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Your link shows historic use of piracy as a term referring to unauthorised
manufacture and sale (ie for profit). It gives no support for using the term
for giving away content, nor for simple consumption, against the rights
holders wishes - both of these are properly, legally and dispassionately
described as IPR infringement.

Even if booksellers in the past had tried to make an emotional attachment
between book copiers and pirates I would still find its use in a supposedly
unbiased report to be objectionable.

------
gouranga
It's getting like a nightmare vision of capitalism in the 1980s. You know like
Robocop or Gremlins 2 where the city sold out to corporations. Corporate
interest over common sense.

We'll just have to mail DivXs to each other like we did in the late 90s when
bandwith was low...

~~~
luriel
Copyright is a government granted and government enforced monopoly. Its got
little to do with capitalism.

~~~
gouranga
Rubbish.

When the successful capitalists lobby politicians and pay them off regularly,
it's a closed loop between government and corporations.

Us peons don't get a look in.

~~~
luriel
It is well known (but sadly still surprising for many) that capitalists are
some of the biggest enemies of capitalism.

What you are describing is _regulatory capture_ , and is caused by government
power, if government didn't have so much power there wouldn't be such a great
incentive to corrupt it.

------
lifeisstillgood
That's It.

I finally broke. I have been reading for going on two years about SOPA, PIPA,
GCHQ snaffling everything in sight. And this is the straw that broke the
camel's back.

I have just ... written to my MP.

Dammit. It will achieve nothing, but I am going to keep pushing. I know why
they are doing this, but ... please please please, stop choking off industries
that might just help us compete against the global behemoths down the road.

~~~
Joakal
Try them: <http://www.pirateparty.org.uk/> They also believe in other saner
intellectual property laws.

------
TamDenholm
Does anyone know when this comes into effect? Also, does it only affect the
ISP's mentioned in the article or ALL ISP's?

Guess i'll just have to use a TPB mirror from now on then...

~~~
drucken
Five ISPs - Sky, Everything Everywhere, TalkTalk, O2 and Virgin Media.

Sixth ISP, British Telecom, has requested a few more weeks to further consider
its position and the claimant, BPI has agreed.

However, since these ISP, in particular Virgin Media, cover by far the largest
broadband users in the UK, for most intents and purposes this affects the
whole UK.

~~~
rlpb
> However, since these ISP, in particular Virgin Media, cover by far the
> largest broadband users in the UK, for most intents and purposes this
> affects the whole UK.

It will cover the majority of non-piratebay users. The piratebay users will
just switch to one of the ISPs that is not one of those five.

~~~
hobin
Err... No, they won't. Switching ISPs is the _most_ time-consuming thing to do
when all you want to do is visit a site that is being blocked. There are many
more practical approaches.

------
debacle
Clearly this will stop piracy.

~~~
VMG
Probably not, but it will make it more difficult for users that aren't tech-
savy.

(I know that was sarcasm btw)

~~~
debacle
I don't believe so. Most people I know use Google for their torrent searches.

Googling "britney spears torrent" is just going to bring up a different
torrent site than tpb.

The clear solution is for UK ISPs to ban Google.

~~~
rapind
I don't. When I google for torrents I usually get a bunch of garbage / ad spam
sites which don't actually have the content... so I don't google for torrents.

Besides, if they block pirate bay, it's only a matter of time before most
other popular torrent sites are also blocked. Sure mirrors will pop up, but
they won't show up on the first page of a google search's results, at least
for a while.

VPN is the way to go.

~~~
patrickk
Instead of googling: "content name" + torrent....

..try this: "content name" + magnet.

[http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2011/12/from-the-tips-box-
the-g...](http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2011/12/from-the-tips-box-the-google-
bar-torrent-searches/)

This will return more spam-riddled results over time as magnet links grow in
popularity (if more sites follow TPB and go magnet-only), but it'll do for
now.

~~~
rapind
Good idea. Thanks.

------
maz29
I see a google trend coming in the form of 'How to access piratebay in the
UK?'

------
arethuza
Presumably this is the English & Welsh High Court - not sure if this would
apply in Scotland and Northern Ireland?

~~~
ajross
Not a brit nor a lawyer. But I thought it was simply _called_ the "High Court
of England and Wales" and that the judgments were binding throughout the UK.

~~~
rmc
Nope. The UK is funny. Unlike several 'federated' countries in which each
'bit' has equal power over it's area as each other, the UK has a mismatch.
England and Wales are treated together as one country lots of things (law,
health system, same notes), but Scotland has a separate legal system, Northern
Ireland would have separate laws aswell, but that's a special case cause it
has a _ahem_ unique parliamently system.

Wait till you look at other oddities, like the Isle of Mann, which isn't in
the UK, or one of the channel islands, which only abolished their feudal
voting system a few years ago.

------
sagarun
One can argue that The Pirate Bay just facilitates copyright violation, It
never violates any one's copyright. In fact lot of artist's are publishing
content through The Pirate Bay.

~~~
alan_cx
Where does that argument stop? Computers facilitate copyright violation, there
for PCWorld and Dell do too. Roads facilitate burglary, etc, etc.

They have legitimate uses, I here the idiots cry. Yeah, so do torrents and
TPB.

This whole thing reminds me of the prohibition of things like cannabis. Banned
on a false economic and scaremongering premiss, yet the laws remain for
emotional nonsensical reasons. Logic and reason get left far behind.

I really dont know what to make of governance any more. Politics is insane.
Business seems equally insane. I dont know how I fit in to this any more.

~~~
RobAtticus
ThePirateBay doesn't pretend to NOT be a tracker for piracy. It makes no
effort to ensure that the content it tracks is legitimate and has far more
illegitimate content than legitimate content. It's not terribly difficult to
see why TPB is different than say a computer or a road.

------
andrewfelix
I don't agree with shutting down TPB, but I kinda sympathise with the porn
industry. They have solid streaming credentials and go out of their way to
make content accessible as opposed to companies like HBO. Is their a
legitimate excuse to pirating porn?

------
RobertKohr
Yippy, the more the goverment tries to control the internet, the more it will
go underground, and the more tor will gain in strength.

------
known
Sharing is not illegal. Selling is illegal.

------
sebkomianos
I wonder what would happen if TPB started operating as a general search
engine. Like, Google, let's say.

------
horsehead
What the hell? Aren't there more important things out there to tackle than
_copyright infringement?_ Sure it's illegal. But there is a massive campaign
against pirates, but seriously -- surely there are bigger problems than this
to tackle ....

edit: also, i love this quote "We should keep blocking them - they are
stealing music illegally."

it's clearly ok to steal music legally. Just as long as you're not stealing it
in ways the authorities deem appropriate. </tongue-in-cheek>

------
PiracyApologist
From the guidelines:

    
    
      "What to Submit
      On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting.
      That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to
      reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that
      gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."
    

Clearly the community has spoken in submitting and then voting this up to be
the #1 story on HN. However, I'm having a hard time finding what is
intellectually gratifying about these kinds of articles other than in a
Slashdot YRO-style basis where different people chime in on censorship,
arguments over linking vs hosting, morality of piracy, etc.

Maybe having been a long-time Slashdot reader I've seen these arguments played
out ad nauseum. When I started regularly participating in HN over a year ago I
found HN to be refreshing in that these kinds of stories didn't make it to the
front page. If anything, I'd expect a good hacker would find a blog post
detailing lesser-known aspects of the bittorrent protocol interesting. Or a
blog post discussing technical workarounds were such a block to be
implemented. As I've been around long enough, I'm officially qualified to say
that I'm saddened to see HN turning into Slashdot/Reddit.

~~~
fromhet
What can be done about it? It's so easy to upvote and comment "this won't stop
piracy". The only way I can think is to have an enormous human capcha that is
having to repeat the guidelines before being allowed to vote, but that would
of course be ridiculous.

