
The Difference Between Saying 'Thank You' in Chinese and English - ColinWright
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/thank-you-chinese/395660/?single_page=true
======
billconan
I have experienced few culture differences since I moved to the U.S. from
China.

one is how to respond to compliment. In China, we were told to stay humble, to
lay low. So my natural response to a compliment is often denying it. When I
did this here in the U.S., people seemed to think I was impolite.

It took me a while to get used to say "thank you" in this situation.

Another thing I could think of is when receiving a gift. American kids seem to
open the gift right away to show excitement and appreciation. I would be rude
if I don't do this. Whereas in China, I was taught "not to accept gifts too
easily" to reduce financial burden for others. When accepting a gift, I should
hide excitement, so that people won't see me as being greedy or valuing the
material gift more than the friendship.

The third thing is working while you are sick. In China, this is appreciated,
people would think this hard-working. But here, this is disliked. people think
you are infecting people.

~~~
hzhou321
I have been in US for almost 20 years now and I am still having trouble
responding to "thank you". I have no trouble saying "thank you" though.

Replying "you are welcome" feels like an acknowledgement that something I did
to be a great deal, and to a Chinese (brought up in Chinese culture), this is
_embarrassing_ \-- not I think it is embarrassing but I always automatically
feel embarrassing. So each time even though I know I should reply "you are
welcome", I always glitch out and when it come out, it is nearly always "no
problem". Of course it means "no problem" for me (to do it or do it again),
not that there wasn't problem for you that need help with. To a Chinese,
attitude comes first and I have the first need of being modest (not as a
virtue, but to actually feel comfortable). On the other hand, in Chinese
culture, right or wrong is often not that important, so it is ridiculous that
people would actually interpret "no problem" as a denial of their saying thank
you in the first place (from the fellow comment, and this is actually the
first time for me to understand why would some one give me over reaction when
I reply no problem).

I actually always feel embarrassed (for another reason) when I realized I
didn't say "you are welcome" and meeting some surprised expressions.

This article got me thinking and I decided that I should not feel embarrassed
any more. There is nothing wrong in Chinese culture and I have been spent
great effort coping with western culture half of my life and I believe most
people do respect cultures. I will reply "no problem" and if people feel
surprised I'll explain that is merely a culture difference.

~~~
nostromo
I'm a bit confused as I think "no problem" is the perfect response to "thank
you" in American mores. I say it all the time.

It's a way of assuring the gift receiver that the gift didn't burden you, the
gift giver. That makes everyone happy and allows the gift receiver to accept
the gift without guilt. And no native speaker will think you meant, "your
problem wasn't a problem after all."

If it's a major gift, then it might be more appropriate to say, "you're
welcome." But for minor gifts (like telling the time or help with a coding
problem) "you're welcome" is a tad smug.

In any case, you're right not to worry about it too much.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
As an American, I tend to use "no problem" when the value of what I gave was
much less than the utility they got out of it, such as when I already know the
answer to a problem they've spent a lot of time researching -- for me, it's 30
seconds of recalling information, while for them, it's 30 minutes of time
saved. So the person I helped ends up much more thankful than I am put out,
and deflecting the need for any thanks is appropriate in my eyes.

I tend to use "you're welcome" when it's things like getting called at 4am to
come pick up a friend whose car broke down in the middle of nowhere. There's
absolutely no way there their request didn't mess up my day, just due to the
timing and time commitment involved, so it seems more appropriate to take
their thanks seriously.

But on the whole, I think both are accepted well enough by native Americans in
both situations, and it's one of the less important details of the language to
worry about.

~~~
derefr
I'm confused because, etymologically, there's no difference between the two
statements. I see them as two parts of a whole, in fact: "it was no problem;
you're welcome to ask again." An "any time" can also show up in there.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
Except that for some favors, it's not true that "It was not problem", even if
it is true that "you're welcome to ask again". In these cases, I use "you're
welcome".

In the others, I use "no problem".

------
timr
This is too cute by half. Yeah, I suppose you can try to dissect something
like this in terms of the subtleties of language and the forces they have on
interpersonal interactions. But then, to do that, you'd have to be ignoring
some of the _huge, gaping differences_ between Chinese culture and Western
culture: those same people who are shouting "off the car!" are probably also
_pushing you out of the way_ while they say it (welcome to China!)

In other words, it isn't _just_ language, or even _mostly_ language. By
western standards, Chinese people are damned rude, in general. They can
certainly be lovely, warm people, and there are deep cultural explanations for
the behavior that are fun to explore...but still, don't get lost in meditation
about it when you're walking in Beijing, or you'll get run over by a grandma
who is driving her motorcycle on the sidewalk (hey...you were in the way!)

Likewise, the whole extended meditation on what shopkeepers say to you on the
way out the door is...overwrought. There are a few comments in this thread
that suggest that the author's translation is perhaps a bit too literal:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712050](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712050)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712559](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712559)

...which wouldn't be surprising in Mandarin, where words/sounds/symbols are
overloaded, and meaning depends heavily on context.

Also, sometimes people just say things _because that 's what they say_. Every
shopkeeper in Paris will say "good journey!" to you as you walk out the door.
You could write an essay on how beautifully meaningful it is that they're
wishing you goodwill in your life's journey -- or you could remember that the
dude who just sold you toilet paper doesn't really care. It's automatic. (Fun
fact: the greeter at WalMart doesn't really care if your day is nice, either.)

This essay strikes me as someone _fetishizing_ a culture, deeming it
"mysterious", and trying to find great meaning in the self-imposed mysteries,
when simpler explanations are at hand.

~~~
molmalo
> Every shopkeeper in Paris will say "good journey!" to you as you walk out
> the door.

Actually, it's _bonne journée_ , which means "good day"...

~~~
timr
Ah, indeed. I knew that was the word they were saying, but I'd always,
incorrectly, _assumed_ that the jour/journée distinction derived from the same
root as the English "journey".

Oops. Bad example. Thanks for pointing that out.

(EDIT: actually, looking up the English word, we borrowed it from the French
journée! So I got the example right, but for entirely the wrong reasons, and
in the wrong direction.)

------
natch
The one glaring surprise in this article is that the author thinks "excuse me"
in US English is used as an expression of politeness. Usually it is used in
the opposite way, as an innuendo which pretends to be polite on the surface
but really means "hey, you are being rude by blocking the path / taking up too
much space." If you don't believe me, pay attention to how it is used when
walking or standing in a crowded shop, subway platform, or sidewalk in any
crowded area of a US city. Especially listen to the tone of the words. When
these words are used, it usually is not with anything near a polite tone.

"Pardon me" and "sorry" on the other hand are, in my experience, used
politely.

~~~
asQuirreL
Personally, when I say "excuse me" on the pavement, I'm being sincere :) the
space is no more mine than it is their's. But, I think all of this varies
based on the culture of your immediate surroundings (for context, I live in
London, UK). After all, "excuse me" could only be used ironically, if its
genuine tone was apologetic (at least _somewhere_ ). I also have heard "pardon
me" used interchangeably with "excuse me" in the ironic sense (usually to
feign not having heard an offensive remark).

~~~
highlander
[http://www.lady.co.uk/people/8352-pardon-that-s-
practically-...](http://www.lady.co.uk/people/8352-pardon-that-s-practically-
a-swear-word)

------
jasonjei
I think this is more of a reflection of mainland China than Taiwan or some of
the other overseas Chinese communities. Taiwan takes a lot from its Japanese
colonial days. A lot of the polite "culture" also left China (to Taiwan or
elsewhere) after 1949, due to the Communists winning the Civil War. The 1930s
Shanghaiers of the wealthy class did pad their speech with lots of
pleasantries. However, the rural people (many of whom top Communist party
officials trace their ancestry) did speak a lot coarser, as is the case in
America too with farmers as opposed to city slickers.

~~~
chrischen
I'm not sure the Chinese nationalists had any more respect either, since they
sacrificed tons of lives by intentionally flooding rivers during WWII.

~~~
swang
This is such an absurd response to your OP. Like a Russian saying Germans are
a bit rude then a German replying, "do you know how many lives Stalin
sacrificed at Stalingrad?!"

That is to say that while your statement is true it doesn't really negate the
original statement.

~~~
chrischen
Except that I'm not defending the Chinese communists either, nor was my intent
to do that. Both are rooted in the cultural value of not valuing individuals
like the West does. They are a collectivistic culture, and that behavior is in
line with collectivism.

------
stevendaniels
There are so many intricacies to being polite in China. Living in China for
over 12 years hasn't taught me even half of what I'd need to know. I don't
think one can decide whether a society is polite or not based on one or two
phrases.

Comparing what constitues politeness in China and in America is an interesting
topic. In China, it is polite for younger people to greet their elders with
the proper title (e.g. Grandfather Li, Second Auntie, etc., uncle) when
meeting them. In America, teens will often go into people's houses without so
much as a "hello". It's funny how far Chinese people will take this. Even
children who can barely talk are strongly encouraged to greet their elders
appropriately, and for most kids, grandfather (爷爷 yéyé), auntie (阿姨 āyí),
grandmother (奶奶 nǎinai) and uncle (叔叔 shūshu) are probably among a childs
first 10 words.

~~~
ronnier
After traveling to 30+ countries, China multiple times, and currently living
in Japan, the last thing I associate with China is politeness.

~~~
mazerackham
You're still stuck in your narrow view of politeness. The concept of
politeness is not a constant, but a variable that changes throughout various
cultures.

~~~
derefr
"Politeness" is not an objectively-quantifiable one-dimensional characteristic
of a culture, sure. There are smaller traits that _are_ quantifiable, though.

"Care taken around inattentive strangers", for example: the difference between
assuming it's someone else's fault if they stand in the road, and assuming
it's your responsibility to not hit someone standing in the road.

Or "empathy for people who don't know your customs", for another: the
difference between expecting foreigners to already know how to be polite in
your locale, being willing to teach foreigners local etiquette, and feeling a
responsibility to _learn multiple foreign cultures in order to react to each
foreigner with the etiquette of their own culture_ , which is a truly strange
feeling I've only experienced while in Japan.

------
codychan
I'm Chinese. The most confusing thing for me between English and Chinese is
the number. English number is seperated by comma every 3 digits (thousand,
million, billion)，no matter in formats like 3 billion or 100,000,000, but in
Chinese, the number is seperated by 4 digits, and this happens in every format
except one, printed 100,000,000 format. The printed ditgit format is affected
by western world and for international convenience. When we say or write it in
Chinese we use "万"(ten thousand) and "亿"(one hundred million) which are 1,0000
and 1,0000,0000 (I never see this digit format which is seperated by comma
every 4 digits), so every time I see something like 123 million or 123,456,789
in English, I'll seperated it from 3 by 3 to 4 by 4, million is 1,000,000
which is 100,0000, so 123 million which is 123,000,000 will be converted into
1,2300,0000 which is 1亿2300万, in my head.

~~~
derefr
A similar confusion used to arise between the American and British meanings of
"billion." An American billion (now the only version) was a thousand million.
In Britain, this unit was called a "milliard", and a British billion was equal
to a million million instead.

Effectively, the British were thinking in terms of a billion being "made out
of" millions, to create numbers that would look intuitively like
"1,000000,000000."

------
nicolas_t
One thing I've noticed with oversea Chinese in South East Asia is that they
tend to say thanks and please a lot more than Chinese from the mainland (At
least I've noticed it for people speaking Hokkien don't have as much
experience with other dialects). I wonder if it's because they also speak
English and got used to say Thank you and Please more regularly.

~~~
yvsong
Ancient China had tons of courtesy in social interactions, and used to
consider other countries uncivilized. The lack of courtesy in Mainland China
is due to the communist revolution, which promoted tough fighting mentality to
break social hierarchy and order, and threw away traditional values. It's an
aggressive way of promoting equality. The revolution is over since Chairman
Mao left. Now that the Communist Party is the governing party, the emphasis is
hierarchy and order, or in a better sounding word -- stability, so that they
can stay in power forever. They try to bring back traditional values, but the
revolutionary damages are hard to overcome.

~~~
jasonjei
Well stated. To see "polite" culture in China, just watch some old 1930s
movies. There are also some modern movies that have tried to copy "politeness"
patterns of 1930s and 1940s China, such as Ang Lee's《色戒》.

------
theophrastus
Formality versus familiarity ...it's a puzzle for us westerners.

As a states speaker of english i have always suffered when to use the familiar
'you'. French: Vous/Tu, German: Sie/Du, Russian: вы/ты ...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction)

The most amusing guidance i ever received was from a French postdoc: "So, once
you've slept with someone, -then- you can use 'the tu'"

------
reuven
I've visited China a number of times over the last three years, and am
learning Chinese. It's obvious to me that I say "thank you" way, way more than
native Chinese speakers would. It's an instinct that has been ingrained in me
from a very young age, that when someone gives you something (e.g., in a
restaurant), says something nice to you (e.g., a teacher compliments my
pronunciation), or is just generally kind, to say "thank you."

I'm (slowly but surely) realizing that this is taken as acceptable because I'm
Western, but that it's a bit weird, as well. Given how important such
etiquette is in the US, and how strongly my parents ingrained it in me, I can
see that it'll take some time for me to undo these habits in Chinese. But
until I do so (as well as improve my vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation,
of course!), I'll be seen as speaking strangely.

------
softbuilder
I can understand this. I feel a little hurt when a really good friend offers a
handshake. Handshakes feel like there's a bit of social distance.

~~~
lucb1e
If s/he is a really good friend, just go for the one-handed hug. Fairly safe
option while less distant than a handshake. S/he's not going to drop you as a
friend over that so if you are looking for something less distant, you could
try that.

------
joenathan
The writing in this article is very difficult to understand.

>"At a restaurant with friends, a delicate choreography will have one person
carefully select a few choice morsels from the common bowl and place them on a
neighbor’s plate. It is a small, perfect gesture."

A "perfect gesture"? What does that even mean?

And this paragraph:

>"Take, for instance, the Beijing tradition of man zǒu. Man means “slowly”
and zǒu means “walk,” or colloquially “walk slowly.” Man zǒu is the tender
goodbye offered from every small shopkeeper I have visited in Beijing. It is
usually spoken in a quiet voice, and somehow sounds so much more sincere than
“Have a nice day.” Sometimes I will make the trip to my neighborhood laundry
with a single shirt for cleaning, just as an excuse to hear the “man zǒu”
when I leave the shop."

What is "man zǒu"? A spoken farewell? If so what is the significance of
saying "walk slowly"?

~~~
awalton
> A "perfect gesture"? What does that even mean?

It means "read the sentence again, this time from a figurative perspective."
From my perspective, the whole sentence is a play on how the meal is a
delicate dance, and how this act is like a perfectly executed move.

> What is "man zǒu"?

>> Man zǒu is the tender goodbye offered from every small shopkeeper I have
visited in Beijing. It is usually spoken in a quiet voice, and somehow sounds
so much more sincere than “Have a nice day.”

I mean it's literally _right there_ , I'm not sure how you missed it. It
sounds similar to how American English speakers would use "Take care."

------
asdf99
> serving drinks to everyone before filling your own glass

this happens in almost every culture but Americans, British and Germans.

Koreans even have extra rules (it must be the older person at the table).

~~~
nagrom
As a Brit who lived in Germany for a while, a lot of Brits and Germans will
fill each other's glasses before their own when sharing wine or water. Can't
say anything about Americans though.

~~~
asdf99
in California bars sell only 600ml glasses that are individual.

my Californian American friends when in Brazil said he was very disturbed by
our "communist" approach to beer

~~~
dragonwriter
There are California bars that sell pitchers of beer.

------
msie
It _seems_ politeness is hard in North America. You have to say 'Thank You' or
'You're Welcome' ALL THE TIME, for the smallest of gestures. You have to tip
everyone for fear of not offending anyone. Interacting with people is a
delicate dance. Can't afford to slip up even once. I get exhausted. I enjoy
being alone a lot. Aside from close friends and family I prefer the company of
machines and animals.

------
ashwinaj
We unfortunately (IMO) live in a world where offending someone even the
slightest is considered a social crime. I think it's perfectly fine to correct
people and for people to correct me. It's all about communication; stop
assuming that someone who visits your country would know how to react in
certain social situations. Sure, they should do their homework but that's not
something that I would be offended.

~~~
msie
I think all too often people are offended by some breach of etiquette and
remain quiet about it. Unfortunately the bad feelings simmer inside and can
surface in an ugly way. If someone has committed such a grievous infraction in
your eyes it's best to address it right away with the individual that
committed it instead of taking it out on someone else down the line.

------
jshc
In Taiwan, thank you is everywhere and yes Chinese is spoken there

------
msoad
After tārof now this, I like how Hacker News is discussing culture. It's very
beneficial to learn about other cultures. Specially in our super diverse
sector.

------
msie
I've met lots of polite Chinese immigrants. Judging by some of the comments
here I must be extremely lucky. Geez.

------
nickysielicki
absolutely fascinating, thanks for posting.

