
On St. Augustine's Confessions - tintinnabula
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/10/26/sarah-ruden-augustine-dialogue-god/
======
ezekg
I'm surprised and happy to see something like this posted and upvoted on HN.
The first time I read through Confessions and City of God, I thought they were
both _very_ tough reads (thou, thee, etc.), much like John Calvin's Institutes
of the Christian Religion (which I haven't actually finished yet), but very
good reads nonetheless, full of arguments/debates on many hard topics that are
applicable even today.

Like this article mentions, you get to see Augustine's view of God change
throughout Confessions, from master (rules, rules, rules--no fun) to lover
through a deeper understanding of grace, a lot like my own journey. Augustine
has been a huge instrument for me in developing a correct view of God through
his great arguments/debates and by introducing me to reformed doctrine (which
you will come in contact with if you search Augustine's writings enough).

I love the quote from his conversion after reading Romans 13:

> No further would I read, […] nor had I any need; instantly at the end of
> this sentence, a clear light flooded my heart and all the darkness of doubt
> vanished away.

Anyways, like I said, I'm really happy to see this posted here. I'm interested
in seeing where the discussion goes.

~~~
riot504
Over the summer I built a set Catholic theological writings by scouring used
book stores that I plan diligently going through over the next couple of
years. I say years because I also have St. Aquinas' Summa Theologica
(complete) in there as well. I am really interested in seeing the path I take
going through these as adult.

~~~
0x4f3759df
If you don't mind reading on kindle... The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and
Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000
Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words

for $3

[https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Ante-Nicene-Post-Nicene-
Fath...](https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Ante-Nicene-Post-Nicene-Fathers-
Collection-ebook/dp/B00KYBSUUM)

~~~
riot504
Thank you for that. I do have one of the Father's of the Church volumes and
one of the book stores has a few other volumes.

I'm most interested right now in The City of God due to the context/thesis
being relevant today. As a teenager I switched to Buddhism (20 or so years
ago) but have gained new interest in my Catholic upbringing as I was finding
it hard to relate to Buddhism and its history. Culturally it was different
from my own and I always had a feeling of being an outsider/imposter.

Most of HN and others who are in educated professions appear to dismiss
religion though I've come to find it as a guiding principal and cultural
history - Western Civilization is built on Christianity, Catholcism for a
larger portion.

Currently in the US we are losing our sense cultural understanding, in my
opinion, and wish for the government to set laws and regulations on
everything. The freedoms set forth in the first amendment give us the freedom
to guide our lives as we see fit, religion filling the moral and spiritual
need in our lives. The libertarian in me agrees with the freedom but to ensure
others are given the same freedom as long we do no harm to others - nor should
we judge or force our beliefs onto others.

Now I understand that certain groups haven't experienced the same freedoms as
others but is that religions fault? I would say no, and offer the perspective
of culture. Simple cultural norms bring us together. I live in the PNW and
have a beard, I know if I were to back to New Orleans where I'm from a beard
would be viewed differently causing issues with employment. This is a simple
and harmless is example that isn't a non-issue compared to others.

Overall I'm excited to begin the journey with the open mind of an adult.

Sorry for tangent and possible incoherent ramble - on my tablet.

~~~
geerlingguy
> Most of HN and others who are in educated professions appear to dismiss
> religion

I think a lot of us just keep our mouths shut due to the large amount of
vitriol that results from any rational discussion of metaphysics or the
supernatural :)

~~~
humanrebar
To attempt to dispel some hesitance, I have a lot of conversations about this
sort of thing. Only a minority involve any vitriol, and they're easy enough to
walk away from. The more principled extroverts might comment on the tone of
conversation as they leave.

And to attempt to make a positive case for engagement, we really need a lot
more of it. We need to be careful because people of various religious (and
agnostic and atheist) persuasions see this fear of engagement as a dislike or
even hate of their kind of people (not just the theology or lack thereof). I
don't want anyone to feel like they have to live secret or closeted lives. And
it's pretty obvious that the stratification of Western culture is causing a
lot of real problems.

~~~
riot504
I am unsure exactly your meaning regarding the stratification of Western
culture, though I assume its in reference to inequality. If this is the case
then I agree. However, I don't believe it stems from Western culture but from
a culture of consumerism. Capitalism often receives the blame though I believe
it is our lack of discipline as a society. Out consistent drive of want -
material items, money and power. Religion, be it Catholicism, Protestant,
Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc..., teaches to lead a far simpler life; Buddhism
strives to be content; minimalist.

Does capitalism thrive if everyone in society reduces their wants, focusing
more on their needs and being content with their current belongings? I would
think so, though it would look much different with current economic
measurements needing drastic revisions.

Is religious belief required to move society in this direction? Not
necessarily. Though deep, open philosophical and theological discussion is
required. Agnostics, atheists and religious individuals need to be able to
discuss matters, find similarities in their beliefs - how they guide their
lives.

Since the millennium we have all become aware of our differences, but not our
similarities. Division consistently drives our lives which will increase the
stratification of Western culture. A main area being reduced is Western
Civilization history and thought. It would be hard to argue the United States
was founded on ideas outside Western civilization which goes back to Greek and
Roman thought, but this is now seen as a negative.

In the end we need to have open discussions, be aware of our history, both the
positive and negative aspects and understand the negatives that happened in
the US have happened all around the world and still occurring. In the end I
believe spiritual discussion and reformation is required to reset society will
maintaining freedom of religion being of the utmost importance.

------
indescions_2017
Also glad to see Peter Brown is still writing. One of the original, old school
Oxford "Greats" from a bygone era when Greek and Latin mastery was still a
prerequisite to considering oneself an educated individual.

His latest would make an interesting basis for an "alternative history" of
Monasticism ;)

Treasure in Heaven: The Holy Poor in Early Christianity

[http://www.upress.virginia.edu/title/4867](http://www.upress.virginia.edu/title/4867)

From the description:

"Seen against the backdrop of Asia, Christianity might have opted for a
Buddhist model by which holy monks lived by begging alone. Instead, the monks
of Egypt upheld an alternative model that linked the monk to humanity and the
monastery to society through acceptance of the common, human bond of work."

------
dblarons
I finished Confessions a few weeks ago, and this review does it justice. The
first few chapters, which are autobiographical, completely changed how I view
antiquity. From "ah, these people are tough to relate to and certainly must
have led much different lives than me," to "Augustine could come spend a day
with me, or I a day with him, and neither of us would feel much out of place."
He is today's "young professional" \-- working, traveling, and being
entertained in ways that are strikingly similar to today's tech worker.

The latter half of the book is a bit trickier. Like the other commenter, his
treatment of time was food for thought - not just for me but for philosophers
and scientists for centuries to come. After finishing that chapter I got lost
in Wikipedia learning more about it, eventually finishing with articles on
general relativity (Augustine to Einstein... not what I expected from a 16
century old book).

Anyways, read Confessions. It's really worth it.

~~~
ziotom78
I fully agree. The Confessions is an incredibly modern book, when I read it
the first time I couldn't believe it was written at the time of the Roman
Empire. Also, the text is full of wit, like when he describes time (“What then
is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him
who asks, I do not know.”).

------
walterbell
Well worth watching is Roberto Rossellini's _Augustine of Hippo_ ,
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072617/reviews?ref_=tt_ov_rt](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072617/reviews?ref_=tt_ov_rt)

 _" Roberto Rossellini directed a string of biographies in the 1960s and early
70s, all of which revolved around famous historical figures (Christ, Pascal,
Descartes, Socrates, St Francis, St Augustine, King Louis XIV, Giuseppe
Garbaldi, and one unrealized project about Marx), and all of which utilized a
sparse, stripped down aesthetic which revoked the pomp and pageantry typically
ascribed to such characters."_

------
spinchange
Henry James and St. Augustine on the front page at the same time? Digging the
literary flavor, HN.

------
pavlov
A fun (if longish) read about how Augustine's strange relationship with his
mother led to his philosophy of sin:

[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/19/how-st-
augusti...](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/19/how-st-augustine-
invented-sex)

------
forapurpose
If you want some context, I highly recommend this clear, engaging, in-depth
run-through of Scholasticism, the leading Medieval philosophy which was
Augustine's legacy.

[https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scholasticism](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scholasticism)

(If you get a paywall, pull up the link in a search engine and open it from
there.)

You might be thinking: Scholasticism, Augustine, Britannica ... cannot
possibly be engaging. I recommend the Enlightenment approach: Try it for
yourself.

------
steelbird
Nice. The version I first read had "Thou"s, "art"s, and "wherefore"s all over
the place. It made the denser chapters less accessible. I'll probably look at
this one in a year or two, once the price has gone down a bit ;)

~~~
cmccart
I think we read the same version. "Verisimilitude" was a new word for me. I'm
still trying to find a way to use it in conversation.

~~~
hodgesrm
We use it constantly in bars in Berkeley. Example: "The pronouncements of
[insert least favorite politician here] do not exhibit the faintest degree of
verisimilitude." You can add rhetorical flourish by taking a thoughtful sip of
beer immediately thereafter.

~~~
ironic_ali
Along the same lines is 'verily' \- and as you mention, beer (and chin
stroking while looking ponderous) is always involved.

------
slyrus
I dreamed I saw St. Augustine, alive as you or me, tearing through these
quarters in the utmost misery, with a blanket underneath his arm and a coat of
solid gold, searching for the very souls whom already have been sold.

