
HKSAR Government issues statement on Edward Snowden - adulau
http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201306/23/P201306230476.htm
======
mbenjaminsmith
My opinion of the HK SAR, which has always been quite high, just went up a
couple of notches.

I hope Snowden finds asylum and can live a reasonably comfortable life. He's a
patriot. I'm a US citizen and I'm pro-US but this bullshit has to stop.

~~~
vbtemp
> He's a patriot

Daniel Ellsberg is a patriot.

Edward Snowden crossed the line a long time ago when he fled to China to
reveal more than domestic surveillance but foreign intelligence activities.

I'm probably just as indignant as you are about the domestic surveillance, but
the activities of Snowden started out as patriotism, but very quickly crossed
into defection.

tldr - champions of human rights don't flee to china & russia. Those places
are where defecting spies go.

~~~
grey-area
I don't agree with you, but have given you an upvote as the downvoting was not
justified. I wish people wouldn't use downvotes just because they disagree
with a post or think it is false - it stifles discussion and leads to the
tyranny of a loud majority, not to the debate on these issues which is so
sorely needed.

BTW here's why I disagree - apart from the widespread domestic surveillance
already admitted the NSA has used dragnet foreign surveillance from other five
eyes nations like the UK to spy on American communications with no suspicion
of wrongdoing, and has attempted dragnet surveillance in other nations like
China (text messages). All of those things deserve debate - even on foreign
surveillance the NSA should not have a free hand IMHO - they're supposed to
_target_ enemies of the US, not engage in blanket surveillance - that's a
dangerous and massive expansion of their powers and in the hands of a
president like Nixon would be truly terrifying. It also undermines the
position of the US in the world and allows nations like China to indulge in
cyberattacks with absolutely no moral high ground for the US.

Re where Snowdon goes, I think that has far more to do with pragmatism that
his wish-list of most desired countries - from his own words I think he would
have preferred to stay in the US and fight this if he felt he'd be given a
fair trial, but that has been made impossible by the calls of traitor from the
current administration (what they mean of course is traitor to the NSA and
administration, not to the country, but those two are confounded).

The alternative interpretation of his actions is that a champion of human
rights has been obliged to flee the US and seek refuge with enemies of the US,
because he risks imprisonment without bail, torture and indefinite detention
at home (all of those have been used in the war on terror in the last decade).
It is quite credible that he wouldn't be allowed to state his case or argue
his defence as Ellsberg did, and in fact Ellsberg agrees with him on that, and
the treatment of Manning justifies his fears. So maybe champions of human
rights do now flee the US?

~~~
vbtemp
I do appreciate your response. Thanks.

On your first point, I barely disagree with you at all.

The second point is where I feel like no one is paying much attention: For me
personally, the irony of criticizing the US on unethical activities from the
patronage of countries that routinely and violently trample the human rights
of their citizens completely destroys and legitimacy of the broader point he's
trying to make.

And your third point is also disturbing and true. I don't disagree.

Edit: BTW, my above post all day long has been hovering between +5 upvotes to
-5 votes. It's the wildest ride I've seen on an HN thread ever :)

~~~
bobwaycott
> _For me personally, the irony of criticizing the US on unethical activities
> from the patronage of countries that routinely and violently trample the
> human rights of their citizens completely destroys and legitimacy of the
> broader point he 's trying to make._

Interesting. For me, it doesn't destroy credibility and legitimacy at all. Nor
does it smell of defection. The irony, however, is what is most tangible. If
we have, through the actions of our intelligence agencies, reached a point
where American citizens must flee the country and take refuge in a
traditionally maligned foreign power to effectively _protect_ the Constitution
and the People, it is a clarion call for the need to make a full stop,
publicly work out these problems, and get ourselves back on the right track.
If protecting constitutional and human rights requires one to flee a nation
that champions those causes publicly, but prosecutes their defenders
privately, we have a serious problem.

------
josscrowcroft
What a wonderful press release. Compare this to the UK government's small-dog-
loud-bark assertion that Snowden _" is not welcome here... you know, just in
case he was thinking about coming..."_ and the relative certainty that he
would have been arrested _instantly_ upon arrival here. What does that say?

~~~
genwin
it says _lapdog_

~~~
Svip
The UK would rather be a member of the US than the EU.

~~~
jamescun
> The UK Government would rather be a member of the US than the EU.

FTFY

~~~
mahmud
> The _elected_ UK Government would rather be a member of the US than the EU.

~~~
rcgs
Not quite. No one voted for the coalition.

~~~
Svip
That's not quite how parliamentary system works. You don't vote for the
executive government. Never has, never will. Even before the Coalition, did
anyone vote for Tony Blair to be prime minister? Technically, that is.

------
fleitz
I believe they are paraphrasing Rage Against the Machine:

Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me.

edit: It's also a brilliant commentary on the rule of law, and due process
rights.

~~~
slacka
Best official government PR ever. I literally LOL'd when I got to the "fuck
you" at the end. How did I, a patriotic American, enter this bizarro world
where I find my self rooting for the Chinese government?

~~~
heidar
It's the HKSAR government, not the Chinese government (NPC). It's important to
note that they are quite different.

~~~
slacka
Agreed, I worked in PRC for several years and HK for a few months. I am well
aware that HK has some degree of autonomy from China. I chose to write Chinese
government for emphasis on the irony. Had I confused Taiwan and China, I could
see the need for a correction. I hope it does not lead to a nuanced off-topic
discussion.

~~~
dualogy
> I am well aware that HK has _some degree_ of autonomy

More like a _great deal_ of autonomy, for the time being. Except for military
and foreign affairs (and perhaps immigration? not sure) in which areas China
has authority, outside of those HKSAR is highly autonomous.

------
jasonjei
Wow, I bet Hong Kong is thrilled that a technicality allowed Snowden to leave
their turf and free them from a potential diplomatic headache... meanwhile
defending the right to privacy of their citizens...

~~~
josephagoss
Even if there was not a technicality, HK would have invented one to allow
Snowden to move on. Read the release, HK is now asking for clarification about
the hacking attacks against HK by the US. Looks like the really wanted him to
leave and did not want to assist the US.

~~~
jasonjei
I agree--a reason could be invented. If you read between the lines, they seem
pretty pissed at the US about the hacking. Letting Snowden catch his flight is
payback.

~~~
josephagoss
Imagine learning of all this hacking against your state, and then the state
that did all that hacking demanded things from you and made a threat that
relations would be harmed if you did not comply quick enough. Thats what the
US just did to HK. US is acting like a giant bully at the moment.

~~~
lostlogin
Err... The Chinese aren't saintly when it comes to the hacking of foreign
governments.

~~~
heidar
Sure but the HKSAR are not known for doing any hacking and this was between
the HKSAR and the USA.

------
pavs
I love living in this time where most countries can tell USA government, to go
fuck themselves. This wasn't always the case.

~~~
dualogy
Arguably it was the case for most of US history, except the few decades after
winning WW2 and worldwide USD deployment ;)

~~~
igravious
The Allies won WW2, Russia arguably sacrificed the most - the US benefited
from the Allies victory and the decline of the British empire to assert near-
global economic and military hegemony.

~~~
dualogy
Yeah that's what I mean by "winning, as in _winning_ ".. ;)

Ah well OK you're right..

------
jrs235
"Since the documents provided by the US Government did not fully comply with
the legal requirements under Hong Kong law"

Sounds like they took the NSA's line right out of their mouths: "Many of the
requests that you forwarded to this office do not contain a complete mailing
address. Therefore, we cannot respond to those requests..."
([http://www.mynsarecords.com/blog/2013-06-21-nsa-please-
stop-...](http://www.mynsarecords.com/blog/2013-06-21-nsa-please-stop-sending-
us-foia-requests/))

------
jusben1369
I find the high praise for the HK government very odd. Basically they told
Snowden they'd stall for him (docs are missing page 4 - please resubmit) but
he'd better hit the road fast. Worry about a domestic audience they add "With
zero leverage now we promise to follow up on snooping." That will of course go
no where.

The Chinese do not want to set the precedent that governments should ignore
extradition treaties and thus harbor fugitives wanted on national security
issues.

I don't blame the HK gov - just question some of the responses here.

~~~
corford
I think a lot of HNers who live in Western countries (myself included) are so
jaded with our respective governments subservience to the US that it's very
nice for once to see a small country not immediately bend over and lube up the
minute the US asks it to.

~~~
tanzam75
> _it 's very nice for once to see a small country not immediately bend over
> and lube up the minute the US asks it to._

Ah, but Hong Kong is not like any other small country. It is an autonomous
region of China, which just happens to be the second most-powerful country in
the world.

The United States can put an unlimited amount of diplomatic and economic
pressure on a small country. They can keep ratcheting up the pressure until
the small country has no choice but to give in. So you might as well give in
right away, and avoid upsetting the Americans.

In contrast, the United States can only put a limited amount of pressure on
Hong Kong. If the US were to go too far, then Beijing could intervene.

------
fritzy
The pairing of the statement about Snowden with an inquiry into government
sponsored hacking is telling about their attitude and reasons for not being
super cooperative.

~~~
h2s
Exactly. The only way this could have read more like a "Fuck you, don't hack
us and then ask for our help" is if they claimed there would be some delay in
arresting him because they have taken a lot of computer systems offline for a
comprehensive security audit in light of the revelations.

------
staunch
Translation: "Fuck You"

------
dsirijus
They should've put Facebook Like button there.

------
sage_joch
The response here seems overwhelmingly positive. And to some extent I get
that. But it does make me nervous to see escalating tensions between major
world powers. Especially when there were already tensions from the war in
Syria.

~~~
b6
You're right, it's a little worrisome.

But the criminals in the US government are finally, finally being made to
sweat a little, and more is on the way. This is like porn to me. There may
actually be some real hope and change under Obama. And "no such agency" may
become a reality. Go! Go! Go!

------
genwin
Shit just got real. The US gov't will now respond with a strongly-worded
letter.

------
paulsutter
My comments would be limited to "FUCK YEAH!"

~~~
mpweiher
I believe that this is what it says, in no uncertain terms.

------
return0
The US government is letting this turn to a huge trainwreck for them.

~~~
genwin
Which seems to be a trend for them. Yet another example showing that the US
gov't is no longer by the people, for the people.

------
jelled
Powerful use of "Meanwhile"

------
zokier
The cheering for HK in this thread is interesting, when the end result was not
that positive. Snowden had to leave the place that I believe he hoped to be a
safe haven for him, and now he is quite literally on the run again.

~~~
a3n
My impression has been that HK was always only intended as a first stop. I
don't know if he had a specific end destination, but I don't think he
considered HK as the end destination.

------
downandout
_" Meanwhile, the HKSAR Government has formally written to the US Government
requesting clarification on earlier reports about the hacking of computer
systems in Hong Kong by US government agencies. The HKSAR Government will
continue to follow up on the matter so as to protect the legal rights of the
people of Hong Kong."_

That paragraph, included in this very same release, says all they need to say
about how he got out of the country. HK knew it couldn't offer safe harbor for
him given the economic ties of itself and China to the US, but they obviously
offered him safe passage. Snowden's strategy of letting his host country know
what we had done to them actually worked.

------
galapago
They use a terrible font in that web, oh.. my eyes!

------
chj
Smart move!

------
kghose
It is interesting to read the commentary here. Some of you here are US
citizens. You do realize that you are supporting a person, who is basically a
foreign agent and now a pawn in the hands of two foreign powers who themselves
engage in cyber attacks all over the world.

However, your responses are not new or novel. During the second world war the
Nazi government took anti-war protests in the US to mean that public opinion
was firmly against any intervention. What they did not count on was the
fickleness of public opinion.

I suspect many of you here will, in case a real war breaks out, be heading for
a recruiting station. People are funny things.

~~~
tome
I don't think your comment deserved the merciless level of downvotes it
received. I too personally find it strange that leaks about US activities
against foreign powers are receiving as much support as leaks about US
activities against its own citizens.

~~~
wavefunction
As an American citizen, I feel it is of paramount importance to know what
"our" government is doing in our name.

Especially since a lot of it seems to be poorly considered, unethical, and
somewhat intended to benefit a few at the expense of the many.

~~~
tome
Yes, this is a strong counter point.

