
Bosch develops rapid test for Covid-19 - doener
https://www.bosch.com/stories/vivalytic-rapid-test-for-covid-19/
======
rurban
This is not rapid, only 10 tests/day, whilst the current overly slow
sequencers can do 200/day. The accuracy of 5% is also worse than other faster
sequencers of 3%.

And compare that to modern ThermalFischer parallel PCR sequencers, which
operate in realtime, 25 tests in parallel, for 2.500€. That's a factor of
1000. With 10 modern sequencers per city you could test 10.000 per day, eg
with drive-in.

[https://www.thermofisher.com/de/de/home/clinical/clinical-
tr...](https://www.thermofisher.com/de/de/home/clinical/clinical-
translational-research/pharmacogenomics/real-time-pcr-solutions-
pharmacogenomics.html)

~~~
subrat_rout
In addition to all information above this test is able to detect antibodies
only not virus. So it is not recommended tests by WHO. This test is only
useful in the later part of infection by the time which patient might have in
contact with others thus spreading the disease. We need tests which can detect
single of very few virus particle in the early stage of infection and that
will help to quarantine the patient thus reducing virus spread.

~~~
stcredzero
_...able to detect antibodies only not virus...This test is only useful in the
later part of infection_

Actually, getting a sense of the penetration of infection into the general
population, among asymptomatic people and mild cases would be very valuable
information! Antibody tests could be used to sample test the public at large.

~~~
VectorLock
Plus having a point of care test for triaging seems extremely useful as well.

I don't think this is meant to replace large labs running rtPCR tests.

------
jphenningsen
This test is made for use at the point of care, apparently all the operater
has to do is insert a swab into a cartridge and put it into the device. [0]
Comparing the throughput to fully automated systems used in testing labs [1]
(look at this beast!) or qPCR machines in research labs [2] is missing the
point, those require high investment or skilled staff. A test that can be run
quickly by any doctor would be very useful to rapidly detect new outbreaks in
the time following the current lockdowns.

However I suspect that the downside of this device will be the high cost of
consumables, as is common for microarray biochip based devices.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgW2pYmzcco](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgW2pYmzcco)
[1]
[https://diagnostics.roche.com/us/en/products/systems/cobas-8...](https://diagnostics.roche.com/us/en/products/systems/cobas-8800-system.html)
[2] [https://www.bio-rad.com/en-us/product/cfx96-touch-real-
time-...](https://www.bio-rad.com/en-us/product/cfx96-touch-real-time-pcr-
detection-system?ID=LJB1YU15)

~~~
smiley1437
It's like a Keurig single serve coffee machine but for covid-19 testing

------
ThePhysicist
Sounds really impressive, but writing "1,000 tests per day with just 100
devivces" is really marketing BS I think. They should've just written "10
tests per day per device".

~~~
gpderetta
Don't current testing machines have much, much higher throughput? Like in the
thousands of tests per day? It seems the advantage of this new device is
latency. Of course if they are cheap enough and easy to use that you can buy
thousands of them and distribute to all hospitals then might also increase
total throughput.

~~~
ThePhysicist
It’s a really small device as far as I understand, so you could use it in a
small practice or even on the go (?). This can be an advantage as most of the
lab systems weigh several tons and take up a lot of floor space, hence you can
never use them in a decentralized setting.

~~~
usrusr
The intersection between moneyedness and remoteness. The more I think about it
the more I suspect that the pilot market for this class of device would be the
sick bay of a yacht that has its own Wikipedia page. Which is fine, but surely
nothing that will have a meaningful impact on our general understanding of the
epidemic.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
I'm seeing a lot of grumbling here about this being "slow", but currently most
COVID testing involves shipping samples around to remote labs. A NYT article
about a hospital in Brooklyn mentioned that their samples are tested in
California (!), and with these labs also inundated, average time to get a
result is over a week now.

So if you can install these machines directly in hospitals, clinics etc, they
will still be far faster than sending them off to a lab.

------
Zealotux
It all sounds impressive to me:

>In various laboratory tests with SARS-CoV-2, the Bosch test delivered results
with an accuracy of over 95 percent.

I've read a lot of report on the current tests for SARS-CoV-2 having accuracy
issues, does anyone know how 95% accuracy compares to the current methods?

~~~
sheldonf
Practicing hospital physician here. We never use the term "accuracy" to
describe diagnostic tests, and whenever I see that term used, I'm very
suspicious of the claim being made. In other words, this Bosch announcement
can probably be ignored.

We use the terms "sensitivity" and "specificity" to describe diagnostic test
performance, and never to my knowledge talk about a test's "accuracy." Usually
accuracy refers to the sensitivity, but there's a lot of liberty taken with
that term in marketing talk.

For example, the existing PCR test being used does not have ideal sensitivity,
which for practical purposes means that there is a substantial false-negative
rate. Which is why (among other reasons) we weren't testing asymptomatic
patients in the early phase.

~~~
_Microft
According to Wikipedia, _accuracy_ is actually defined in this context. This
does not not mean that Bosch has not used everyday speech here but it is not
clear that they have. Too bad that the article does not include links to
additional information.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_and_specificity#De...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_and_specificity#Definitions)

~~~
halflings
Of course accuracy is defined, but it's not the right metric because you
usually have a large bias in the tested population: even if you only test
people with symptoms, you might only have 10% of people that actually have the
disease; so a test that always says "NO" would have 90% accuracy.

That's why you look at True Positive Rate (sensitivity) and True Negative Rate
(specificity) to factor that bias out. If TPR is 95%, that means that 95% of
the people that are actually infected (10% of the pop in the previous ex.)
will be detected as such. IF TNR is 20%, that means you'll mistakenly detect
20% of people that don't have it as infected, which would be really bad.

In other fields, people use Precision and Recall. Precision = % of times the
test is right _when it predicts a positive_. Recall = how many of the real
positives were detected as such.

~~~
Octoth0rpe
> IF TNR is 20%, that means you'll mistakenly detect 20% of people that don't
> have it as infected, which would be really bad.

Would it though? It's my understanding that most people who test positive are
still being sent home, not forcefully hospitalized. And given that we don't
actually have a widely used pharmaceutical intervention protocol, there's no
side effects to worry about from false positives (eg of the opposite of this:
if we were giving every confirmed case chloroquine or interleukin). The worst
case outcome from a high false positive rate (low TNR) would seem to me that
people would be extra good at self quarantining.

~~~
ballenf
If you're a healthcare worker, the cost of a false-positive could be high.

For them and others one cost is that they'll feel themselves somewhat immune
when they're not and may not take precautions. It will also confuse study of
the disease if it starts to look like your "2nd" infection can be much worse
than your first.

------
prox
It’s good to see solutions for testing are coming.

This test by Singapore a*star nanobiolab can test in 5 minutes :
[https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/singapore-
scie...](https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/singapore-scientists-
on-the-front-lines-of-fight-against-covid-19)

~~~
danieldk
Besides comparing times, I guess the accuracies or FP/FN rates are also
important. The linked article states 95% accuracy for the Bosch test. Are
there any numbers for the 5-minute test?

~~~
blompa
This article [0] suggests that false negative results will not be as
problematic if we manage to start screening on a population level.

Inaccuracy of up to 15% could still keep the viral R0 under 1.0 (the critical
value for eliminating an epidemic).

From the article:

> "False negative rates up to 15% could be tolerated if 80% comply with
> testing, and false positives can be almost arbitrarily high when a high
> fraction of the population is already effectively quarantined"

[https://medium.com/@sten.linnarsson/to-stop-covid-19-test-
ev...](https://medium.com/@sten.linnarsson/to-stop-covid-19-test-
everyone-373fd80eb03b)

~~~
dx034
Shouldn't we optimize for a higher number of false positives? In the end,
sending someone in quarantine for 2 weeks without them being infected is
probably less dangerous than a false negative. So making tests overly
sensitive would seem more applicable to me here.

~~~
chimprich
If you're quarantining a large number of medics then that's potentially
serious and possibly more dangerous overall if your numbers are off.

~~~
dx034
You could administer two tests for those, I believe that's what's already
done.

------
shultays

      Up to 1,000
      (in smaller font) tests per day on just 100 devices
    

I guess 10 test per day per device is not as cool

~~~
pixiemaster
i think it’s for the time after the pandemic. so you can identity potential
infected very decentralized, so it does not happen again in 2021.

~~~
oaiey
that is the right angle I guess. This should be a local doctor device.

------
kplex
Am I missing something here or does this look rather over-engineered and with
limited capacity - 10 tests per device per day - I assume the device is the
large central unit.

~~~
totetsu
I wonder if it refuses to operate at all without a wifi connection? ;)

------
blackbear_
More details on coronavirus testing for the interested:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/d41587-020-00010-2](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41587-020-00010-2)

------
ginko
> Up to 1,000 tests per day on just 100 devices

So.. 10 tests per day per device? That doesn't sound THAT impressive.

~~~
lmedinas
"(...)the rapid test can detect a SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus infection in patients
in under two and a half hours" (...)With the tests currently in use, patients
must usually wait one to two days for a result."

Well i see here a big improvement...

~~~
PierceJoy
> With the tests currently in use, patients must usually wait one to two days
> for a result.

Is that because it takes 2 days for the test to complete, or because there a 2
day delay from backlog + administrative time?

~~~
PunchTornado
usually shipping the samples to a lab. this test can be done on the spot in
the hospital by a doctor.

------
buboard
More details about the test:

[https://www.bosch-vivalytic.com/en/product/vivalytic-
tests/v...](https://www.bosch-vivalytic.com/en/product/vivalytic-tests/vri-
multiplex-test/)

~~~
jansan
So the whole thing is an existing product that was extended to also test for
Coronavirus?

~~~
cbg0
How else could it have been developed so fast?

------
incompatible
Various groups are also using the LAMP method (Loop-mediated isothermal
amplification) which can apparently give results in 30 minutes or so without
expensive thermal cycling equipment.

[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Loop-
mediated+isothermal+amplifica...](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Loop-
mediated+isothermal+amplification+covid-19)

Bonus article with biohackers in Sydney:
[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-25/amateur-scientist-
mak...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-25/amateur-scientist-making-a-
rapid-test-for-coronavirus/12084974)

~~~
dmix
This one claims 30 minutes for results for the standard product being
repurposed by Bosch here as well.

------
numlock86
> Up to 10,000,000 tests per day ...

> ... on just 1,000,000 devices

Incredible marketing.

~~~
moooo99
Given the size of hospitals around the world, I'd assume its not unlikely that
they'll buy 100+ of these devices. I agee that this is somewhat confusing, but
it doesn't seem too unrealistic.

Also, it seems like the actual test is the cartridge which is inserted into an
existing device. So the device is probably already in use in some places and
can get this extra test capability by just inserting the cartridge.

------
anonsubmit2671
There's already a 45-minute rtPCR test from Cepheid and a simple 10 minute
ELISA test from SureScreen (which serves a different need, antibody detection
rather than infection detection).

It doesn't appear to have an FDA EUA so it may not be immediately usable in
the US.

The user-friendly UX and compact size seem good.

The cycle time seems to be on the slow side when minutes count in an ER / ICU
situation. ~9 tests per day per machine seems slow, costly and likely to
occupy a lot of space for the machines and the cartridges (which contain
reagents that have to be kept chilled).

This seems overall like a timely product to solve immediate needs. It could've
been better but it was designed quickly.

------
mikeiz404
>In various laboratory tests with SARS-CoV-2, the Bosch test delivered results
with an accuracy of over 95 percent.

Curious what the false negative rate is.

>[The device] can perform up to ten tests in the space of 24 hours

>[Testing] can be performed directly at the point of care. This eliminates the
need to transport samples, which takes up valuable time. ... With the tests
currently in use, patients must usually wait one to two days for a result

>... even medical personnel who have not been specially trained on it can
reliably perform the test.

>... it allows a single sample to be tested not just for COVID-19 but also for
nine other respiratory diseases, including influenza A and B, simultaneously

------
buboard
my guess is that in the coming months, international travel will require a
mandatory 3 hour wait at the airport to get your test result

------
catwell
This is fine, but it is yet another molecular test. What we need now are
serology tests. They are faster, cheaper, easier to execute (blood-based), can
detect cured patients, and can scale to the population of a country.

Serology tests are already used in several countries in Asia, I have little
doubt they will arrive in Europe and the US soon-ish.

~~~
zajio1am
We already have serology tests in Czechia (got several days ago from China),
but there is some confusion about how useful they are. They may produce
negative results even for patients with several days of clinical symptoms, so
negative results still needs to ve verified with molecular test.

------
sharathr
Cepheid has started shipping tests that produce results in under 45 minutes.
[https://www.labpulse.com/index.aspx?sec=sup&sub=mic&pag=dis&...](https://www.labpulse.com/index.aspx?sec=sup&sub=mic&pag=dis&ItemID=800942)

------
nabla9
1000 tests per day sounds like what typical hospital needs.

I wonder how much 100 Vivalytic devices cost and how much those cartridges
cost.

Can they mix multiple samples into one test? If you take sample from 10
people, mix them to find that nobody is infected, it increases testing
capability 10X.

------
fbn79
Is not ROCHE systems more performants
[https://www.roche.com/media/releases/med-
cor-2020-03-13.htm](https://www.roche.com/media/releases/med-
cor-2020-03-13.htm) ?

~~~
sah2ed
From your link:

 _”The widely available Roche’s cobas 6800 /8800 Systems, which are used to
perform the cobas SARS-CoV-2 Test, provide test results in three and half
hours and offer improved operating efficiency, flexibility, and fastest time-
to-results with the highest throughput providing up to 96 results in about
three hours and a total of 384 results for the cobas 6800 System and 960
results for the cobas 8800 System in 8 hours. The test can be run
simultaneously with other assays provided by Roche for use on the cobas
6800/8800 Systems.”_

~~~
fbn79
So you need 288 BOSH devices to have the daily throughput of a ROCHE 8800
System

~~~
rubidium
To be fair, there’s a massive price difference between the bosh and roche
machine.

------
gmueckl
So the test depends on single use cartridges. How many of those can be
manufactured?

The testing devices themselves seem to be around 15.000 Euros. So you'd have
to have a very good reason to buy one - a reason that isn't throughput.

------
llarsson
With announcements of this type of thing, what I think we all need to know is
also "can you produce tons of these things right now", not just that they
exist.

------
ck2
Has anyone made a resource yet of all the infection tests available vs
antibody (immunity) tests available?

Seems like that would be handy if not just fascinating

------
tibbydudeza
Imagine how much Theranos would have been worth right now.

I think cost firstly and then speed of result would be useful right now never
mind the throughput.

~~~
jacquesm
Theranos would be worth exactly $0 - their long term liabilities.

You need stuff that works first.

------
stickac
How is this better than Open qPCR which is 3-times less expensive and can give
a test result in 1 hour instead of 2.5 hours?

~~~
fizixer
Does 'Open' mean open source? Is there a free/open-source PCR design that
DIYers can build themselves as long as they have the parts/resources?

~~~
stickac
For OpenPCR yes, for Open qPRC not.

------
superzamp
> Faster certainty, slower spread

At this point, isn't the virus considered to be "everywhere" and testing
pointless?

~~~
StevePerkins
I honestly don't even understand what I'm reading anymore. Either on HN and
Reddit, or sites like the BBC, NY Times, and CNN.

Half the things I read still reflect fantasies of Asian-style containment in
the West.

The other half acknowledge that this is too late. That we're heading up an
exponential curve now, and will be on the other side in 3-6 months (depending
on measures taken).

I'm no expert. But knowing what I know about my nation's government, and the
likelihood of its people fully cooperating with any measures, I suspect that
the second half is more realistic.

Meaning that testing and contact tracing is really only going to become
relevant later this year. To snuff out any minor flare-ups that occur after
most of society has gotten over the curve and built up herd immunity.

------
jackallis
this whole every-day news about rapid test dev, etc is getting frustrating. My
SO is an MD in NY. All they want to hear from any company is, we have
developed method that can be used to test 10k/day with results in 1 hr and
will be mass producing and provding in two days.

------
endorphone
As an aside question: after each use is that entire cartridge assembly waste?

------
6510
Here is a dumb idea: Mix and test multiple people at the same time.

~~~
donarb
That's already being done in some places that have limited numbers of tests.
The governor of Nebraska announced that they are pooling tests to save on test
kits. Samples from 5 people are combined in 1 test. If the sample tests
negative, those people are in the clear. If the sample tests positive, all 5
are then tested again separately.

------
shd4
Well, good for them.

Wait. 10 tests per day? That's nothing.

------
khjklehti
How expensive is this machine? $1k, $10k?

~~~
pauljurczak
Certainly not $1K! BTW, at current U.S. hospital billing levels, $1K buys you
a small bottle of Tylenol. Think big, my friend!

~~~
dna_polymerase
Sorry, German source only, but reportedly: Device is 15.000€ and a single
cartridge runs between 50 and 100€ [0].

[0]:
[https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/pandemie-...](https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/pandemie-
testergebnisse-in-wenigen-stunden-bosch-entwickelt-
covid-19-schnelltest/25684166.html?ticket=ST-834594-shOtHKhshHHLKSqkcg1U-ap1)

~~~
pauljurczak
That makes sense. There seems to be a better option available in the U.S.:
Abbott ID NOW, which produces results in 5 to 13 minutes. The cost was $8K
before the acquisition of Alere by Abbott:
[https://serfinitymedical.com/products/id-now-instrument-
us-a...](https://serfinitymedical.com/products/id-now-instrument-us-alere-
nat024-928584)

------
GrumpyNl
More important question is, do we trust them?

~~~
JanSt
Bosch is a huge company (400.000 employees). Don't drive your car if you don't
trust them.

~~~
bakuninsbart
They are also owned by a charitable foundation whose express goal is the long-
term welfare of the company and its employees, so they have much less pressure
to extract short-term value.

