
As Demand for Welders Resurges, Community Colleges Offer Classes - imjk
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/11/business/economy/as-demand-for-welders-resurges-community-colleges-offer-classes.html?_r=0
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sharkweek
My prediction with nothing but anecdotes!

We have drastically overstated the importance of college the last 20 years,
sending far too many people deeper into the education system as opposed to
encouraging more trade craft. We are going to end up with a shortage of
qualified tradespeople in traditionally blue collar industries such as
plumbing, welding, and electrical work here in the near future, especially
because "people with college degrees don't do those jobs" (which is a tragic
way to view such qualified craft.

There are massive numbers of older folks in various trades who are getting set
to retire, and there is a clear shortage of people ready to replace them. In
other words, it's going to be very, very expensive to hire an electrician here
in the near future.

We just had our house rewired (old 1940s knob and tube), was chatting with our
electrician a bit after the job, and he was talking about how absolutely
insane it's been for him the past 3-4 years. He's a younger guy and he said
there is already a huge shortage of folks trained and certified to handle a
lot of the work needed in the city, causing prices to increase sharply. The
boom economy (Seattle) certainly has a lot to do with it, but even in general,
he commented about how he just doesn't know that many electricians his age.

~~~
pmorici
In the case of Electricians and Plumbers the time requirements for becoming
licensed are steep. In Maryland for example to become a "Master" electrician
you need to work in the field for 7 years as an apprentice. That's kind of
nuts when you consider that's about the same amount of time it takes to train
a doctor.

~~~
keithly
It's not that surprising considering how dangerous but necessary electrical
work often is. If you screw up, you could die, the building could burn down,
other people could die, etc.

~~~
walshemj
Absolutely and if your working with non domestic supplies (high
voltage/amperage)you hope to god that if you have an bad accident that you are
killed outright.

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WalterBright
In high school, I took all the shop classes - wood, metal and auto. The auto
shop teacher was angry with me, told me I didn't belong in shop because I was
going to college, and that I was taking the place of some other hypothetical
student.

My view was I like making things, which is why I wanted to go to college to
learn engineering. Those shop classes wound up helping me a lot in my
engineering work. I've known engineers who've never used a machine tool in
their life, and frankly their work is crippled as a result.

See the book "Herman the German" by Neuman for a similar viewpoint.

~~~
vacri
In university, I found that the lecturers that had worked out in industry were
far more entertaining and informative than pure academics. They knew what the
shortcomings of theory were, and how you had to mold the theoretical to match
the practical.

One example in a neuro class talking about EEGs, a lecturer was saying that
the solution between electrodes didn't have to be anything special (usually
it's a medical supply) and that even mayonnaise would do, he'd used it once.
Fast forward a few years, and one of my fellow students was working in a lab
and they ran out of goo. She says she went down and bought a jar of mayonnaise
and it worked fine - and in the setting of a medical lab, it even smells a bit
medicinal.

~~~
WalterBright
"Herman the German" started out as an apprentice in an auto repair shop, and
learned that horse manure would stop radiator leaks. Decades later, a leak in
the GE turbine test facility was causing lots of problems, and he fixed it
right up with, you guessed it!

If you like practical engineering, it really is a great read.

------
Animats
Not everyone can weld.

Welding is a difficult skill to do well. Anyone can become a crappy welder in
a few hours. Tack welding some sheet metal to a frame is not hard. Being able
to weld two pipes into a liquid-tight T-connection stronger than the pipes is
a skill beyond most working welders. That level of skill may take years to
acquire. The welders who make the big bucks are the ones who can do that.

(I've tried TIG welding. I suck.)

~~~
jordanb
I own a TIG welder and have done lots of welding with mild and alloy steel
(mostly 300 series stainless).

TIG welding is like learning to ride a bike. It's difficult at first because
various parts of your body have to work in concert, but once you get the hang
of it you can do really great work. I've not done much overhead welding yet
though, that's where the wages are earned.

~~~
viewer5
What's so significant about welding something above you? (Unless I'm
misunderstanding 'overhead welding'?)

~~~
gluggymug
I've completed a certification in TIG, MIG and Stick welding and metal
fabrication.

Welding overhead is considered more difficult because gravity is making the
molten metal run away from the joint. Less metal in the join means less
strength. Too much metal means you have wasted welding rod AND possibly put
more heat into the weld than needed which weakens it as well.

For pipe welding if you can imagine a horizontal join of 2 round pipes, coming
around the underside is where you will be doing an overhead weld.

------
jordanb
I have family who are Union pipe-fitters.

Times have been good for the past few years due to fracking and (here in the
Midwest) refurbishment of many nuclear powerplants.

The fracking boom is probably over though and I believe most of the nuclear
powerplant work came as plants built in the 70s reached EOL.

I don't see any sort of blossoming of welding in this country. Production
welding is robots or offshore and has been for a long time. Same with
shipbuilding. There's always architectural work but that's been pretty
moribund for some time now. Industrial work is highly cyclical.

~~~
TheCowboy
On top of what you mentioned, if dollar remains strong or appreciates more,
then that will make US exports less competitive and could take some steam away
from industries demanding these trades. Especially when it comes to
manufacturing.

Additionally, I read articles like this and see that entry-level wages for a
welder are $16.50. If businesses are experiencing an actual shortage and want
to draw new people into a trade, they are going to have to show that with more
attractive wages or other perks such as paying to train people.

~~~
pckspcks
There's welding and there's welding. Structural stick welding, I can train you
on in a few hours. That's not going much higher than $16.50 per hour.

Speciality welding -- of the level of precision needed to make lightweight
parts (aerospace, bicycle), some types of artwork, underwater, etc. -- that's
a much more skilled job.

It'd be like grouping basic IT and kernel hacking as the same thing.

------
nfriedly
If you're interested in welding but don't know where to start, here's a couple
of good resource:

[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/16/unlock-your-
inner-...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/16/unlock-your-inner-mr-t-
by-mastering-metal/)

[http://www.makershed.com/products/make-primer-welding-
pdf](http://www.makershed.com/products/make-primer-welding-pdf)

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zhte415
If you happen to be a welder reading this, either in training or in work, I
have a small seed to plant: Practice best practices for 5 years and then come
to the developing world. Practical, visionable, safety-first, disciplined
skills are what moderately developed countries are shouting for, and you can
call your price.

~~~
roel_v
What countries are you thinking about? And what do you see as 'call your
price'? Who will pay for a welder from another country who that doesn't speak
the local language? In most 'moderately developed' countries (countries I'd
call like that - much of South America, Eastern Europe, parts of Asia) many
more people know how to weld than people in the US or Western Europe do.

~~~
zhte415
Yes, there's a lot more welding in moderately developed countries, but a real
fear over safety and quality of work.

A typical story: 30 years ago few people knew how to weld, best practices,
they just did it, and those new to welding learnt from those that taught
themselves. 30 years later quality is far more important than 'just doing it'
but there's a fear of not getting it done right, of having missed something in
this period of self-instruction.

You, as a German, Finnish, American etc trained welder, come from history of
best practices developed by companies that can afford to pay for quality, and
where quality overrides cost. You have a lot to bring an industry that's
seeking to rapidly move from cheap to quality, from loosely fitting to
international quality. And you're there to transfer expertise.

Needing to speak the local language isn't important - the orders are for
export to international standards and specifications, and that for domestic
consumption follows the international standards anyway.

I'm not a welder, but I know many who are. They're mainly experience with
naval and nautical areas - oil rigs, ships, winches, etc in Asia, a lot
focused in China, some in Middle East. Not just welding, this applies to any
skilled engineer.

~~~
roel_v
I'm skeptical that a Western welder would command rates 5x or 10x above the
national wages, which is what they'd need to be paid to substantially improve
upon their domestic market value. And that's not even counting for relocation
costs and time, living in another country with a substantially lower living
standard, etc. If there really would be a market for this, _it would happen_.
Instead, what I see is Polish welders moving to Western Europe, where they get
some extra training, and after that are paid less than their local colleagues.

Despite fear mongering like the GP, welding is a commodity skill, and yes they
make OK money (compared to most other blue collar jobs) - but much of that is
in overtime and even more so, in hazard pay. I wouldn't want to put on a
diving suit and weld an oil platform I don't know how many meters below sea
level - and judging from what it costs to get someone to do it, many people
think the same.

Lastly, and this is not to dismiss the skill of welding, but a welder is not
an 'engineer'. Welding is a practical skill, not hard to get started with, and
90% of all welding jobs can be done by someone with 6 months of training. It's
the few highly specialized jobs that take more knowledge and experience, and
it's there that the money is. In that respect, welding is (dare I say it?) not
unlike software development.

------
RealityVoid
Something I posted on Reddit:

"I would argue that this is very stupid advice and it enables people that
really don't want to study hard.

An educated workforce is of crucial importance, be it an educated welder,
lawyer or engineer. Educated people find it easier to adapt to new economic
needs and it's far easier for an engineer to do a welder's work than a welder
to do an engineer's work. And yes, I'm an engineer and wouldn't even blink if
I had to get my hands dirty.

There's also the part where educated people have a more fulfilling life,
grater freedom, more options, broader intellectual horizons.

I see a lot of people around me that decry the lack of good tradesmen.On the
other hand, my dad is a great electrician and can't get a decent, comfortably
paid job. You know why? Because the need isn't there, because brains are more
productive than brawn."

~~~
sliverstorm
So you, engineer, could become a great welder at the drop of a hat, because
you are educated and typical welders are not?

From paying visits to the department, my local community college's welding
program is basically a 2-year education on metallurgy. I don't consider the
people coming out of that program "uneducated" in the slightest.

~~~
Washuu
I am a software engineer and weld as a necessary component to other hobbies. I
have easily spent a weeks worth of classes self studying to even be able to do
it decently.

Types of welding gases, processes, and safe material handling is just a small
part of it.

------
bougiefever
I am a developer, but I encouraged one of my sons to sign up for welding
school. I am trying to get my other son, who didn't want to go to college and
has a crappy call center job, to sign up too. It looks to me like a good way
to earn a living for someone who doesn't want to go to college or can't afford
it -- not everyone wants to acquire massive debt before launching their
career. One or two semesters at a tech school is far easier to pay for than
four or more years of college. It's costing me about $6k to pay for my son's
classes.

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anonymouss
However, NIOSH has concluded that welders can be harmed by welding smoke even
when the concentration s of the individual components are well below OSHA
permissible exposure limits.

[http://www.afscme.org/news/publications/workplace-health-
and...](http://www.afscme.org/news/publications/workplace-health-and-
safety/fact-sheets/pdf/Welding-Hazards-AFSCME-fact-sheet.pdf)

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venomsnake
Is it that hard for that kind of jobs to be automated, or semi-automated - so
we have remotely controlled robots to do it?

~~~
pjc50
Robot welding _for repetitive jobs_ has long been automated. But the skill in
welding is not so much performing the motions as working out what needs to be
done.

~~~
venomsnake
Anything that could not be remotely controlled with a joystick? You put the
task on, the robot just gives control to the operator at critical moments?

~~~
pjc50
How does that help? You still need a skilled operator, surely?

~~~
venomsnake
That I will increase the skilled operator productivity several-fold.

~~~
johnchristopher
You expect the skilled operator to perform multiple complex weldings at the
same time ?

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JoshTriplett
This isn't new; Portland Community College had a welding department back in
2000. Many different buildings across campus had display cases and
installations of metal sculptures and signs produced by that welding
department.

~~~
bane
I always found it slightly funny that the artwork the welding department at my
local community college produced was miles better than the artwork the art
department at my local 4-year produced.

~~~
woah
It's all about craftsmanship.

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csuwldcat
It's as if supply is meeting demand, remarkable, truly remarkable ;)

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protomyth
I'm surprised when I hear about community colleges without vocational
programs. The combination is really helpful and better serves a community.

------
camefromthechan
> No. 4 story on HN

My sides!

