
Schools in England Introduce a New Subject: Mindfulness - donum
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/04/world/europe/uk-mindfulness-children-school.html
======
weavie
My daughters homework for each day this week is :

1\. Talk about your feelings.

2\. Do something you are good at.

3\. Keep yourself hydrated.

4\. Eat well.

5\. Keep active in mind and body.

6\. Take a break.

7\. Stay connected to those you care about.

8\. Ask for help.

9\. Be proud of your very being.

10\. Actively care for others.

She has a chart she needs to tick once she has achieved each item.

I get that they are all good things to do and perhaps it provides a talking
point in families where these things aren't considered, but it seems a bit
much to throw it all in at once. Next week she will probably be back to
learning her 3 times tables..

~~~
sridca
How do they teach your daughter to translate these principles to practical
actions? For example how does your daugher understand "Eat well" to mean in
terms of actual food she happens to crave (cookies, ice cream, plants, meat,
etc.)? If they are going EAT-Lancet style on her you should probably be
concerned.

~~~
weavie
I will be asking her what they are teaching her over the week.

I am struggling to find any coherent solid information about what the EAT-
Lancet diet actually is, or why it is bad. It looks like a load of politically
motivated mumbo jumbo! Would you be able to summarise?

~~~
sridca
It is a vegan-inspired/ anti-meat diet (similar to Canada's New Food Guide),
backed by the processed food industry, but with plenty of issues which are
neatly summarized by Georgia Ede here:
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-
diet/20190...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-
diet/201901/eat-lancets-plant-based-planet-10-things-you-need-know)

~~~
jules-jules
From the linked article:

 _" 2\. Red meat causes heart disease, diabetes, cancer... and spontaneous
combustion

The section of the report dedicated to protein blames red meat for heart
disease, stroke, type 2 diabetes, obesity, cancer, and early death. It
contains 16 references, and every single one is an epidemiological study. The
World Health Organization report tying red meat to colon cancer was also
mentioned, and that report is almost entirely based on epidemiology as well.
[Read my full analysis of the WHO report here.] The truth is that there is no
human clinical trial evidence tying red meat to any health problem. I
certainly haven’t found any — and if there were, I think this Commission
surely would have mentioned it."_

Are we supposed to take this seriously?

~~~
sridca
Do you have anything valuable to say in response to that?

~~~
jules-jules
Sorry, but this article is junk science, at best.

Who is this curious voice in the field of nutritional science that
singlehandedly dismisses decades of epidemiological science on nutrition and
diet putting her at odds with virtually the entire scientific field, such as
Harvard, (e.g., Framingham Study, Harvard Nurses study and the L-Carnitine
Study), Oxford (dozens of longitudinal studies, such as the Epic Oxford Study
led by Professor Tim Keys) as well as the World Health Organization, the
United Nations Environmental Program, Lancet of course and many, many others.

 _”I became interested in nutrition after discovering a new way of eating that
completely reversed a number of perplexing health problems I had developed in
my early 40′s, including Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, and IBS. This
experience led me on a quest to understand why the unorthodox diet that
restored my own health is so different from the low-fat, high-fiber, plant-
based diet we are taught is healthy. It turns out that nutrition is not rocket
science; if you understand how food works, it all makes sense.”_

From the author's biography. Sounds solid.

~~~
sridca
> Sorry, but this article is junk science, at best.

Au contraire it exposes the junk sciences (including epidemiology to establish
causation) used by EAT-Lancet to further their agenda.

> Who is this curious voice [...] From the author's biography. Sounds solid.

Instead of fervently trying to discredit the author, and then proceed to name-
drop to buttress your borrowed beliefs, try to focus on what she actually
_says_.

> epidemiological science [...] virtually the entire scientific field [...
> name-dropping snipped ...]

Nutrition epidemiology studies are not scientific experiments; they are wildly
inaccurate, questionnaire-based guesses (hypotheses) about the possible
connections between foods and diseases. This approach has been widely
criticized as scientifically invalid [see here(1) and here(2)], yet continues
to be used by influential researchers at prestigious institutions.

Even if you think epidemiological methods are sound, at best they can only
generate hypotheses that then need to be tested in clinical trials. Instead,
these hypotheses are often prematurely trumpeted to the public as implicit
fact in the form of media headlines, dietary guidelines, and well-placed
commission reports like this one.

Tragically, more than 80%(3) of these guesses are later proved wrong in
clinical trials. With a failure rate this high, nutrition epidemiologists
would be better off flipping a coin to decide which foods cause human disease.

(1)
[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2018.00105...](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2018.00105/full)
(2)
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2698337](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2698337)
(3)
[https://rss.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1740-...](https://rss.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1740-9713.2011.00506.x)

------
bencollier49
My five year-old son now talks about his mind in the third person as a result
of this. I'm having to retrain him with responsibility for his own actions.

Lovely idea and all but having untrained people teaching psychological
practices to reception-grade children seems rather foolhardy to me.

~~~
anextomp
That seems like a fairly healthy thing to learn, no?

Sometimes we need to acknowledge that our brain can cause us to do things we
don't want to, and not beat ourselves up for it. Obviously that can go too
far, and you need to anticipate the consequences of your actions, owning your
conscious decisions.

~~~
geggam
Teaching someone to act socially mature without understanding why is like
teaching someone to pass a test without understanding the material.

Seems like schools are becoming experts at creating fakes.

~~~
spuz
I don't know where you get this idea from? Where does it say that schools are
teaching kids to act socially mature without understanding why?

Mindfulness if taught well should provide the opposite. It gives you a
framework to understand your thoughts and emotions and act in a more rational,
thoughtful way. It's not a way of abdicating responsibility - just the
opposite.

~~~
geggam
Maturation is a process one learns by experience. Faking the result skips the
reasons. Granted it makes people more palatable to be around but the lessons
why are lost.

Some things can only be learned by experience.

------
stared
I think schools should teach one more thing: non-violent communication and
related things: not-neediness, how to communicate feelings and needs, how to
avoid shaming and guilt-tripping, how to ask and be fine with rejections, how
to understand that other people may have different goals and motivations, etc.

\- Marshall B. Rosenberg, "Non-Violent Communication"
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/560861.Non_Violent_Commu...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/560861.Non_Violent_Communication)

Moreover, it may change the society (so its benefits don't stop at an
individual level) - as a lot of problems stem from conflicts that escalate
step by step.

~~~
dvfjsdhgfv
If we start the "what else" branch, it's almost infinite.

For example, the ways to manipulate people and how to protect oneself (e.g.
according to Cialdini's classification, but not necessarily).

How to develop critical thinking in a world where most communication is aimed
at influencing you in one way or another.

How to develop elasticity and the skill to adapt to ever-changing
circumstances (hint: the world they will be living in will be very different
from the one they're taught about at school, I think we all experienced it at
some point).

How to understand the conditioning of the society and the culture we're living
in (e.g. the roles of the husband/wife, parent/child, family member,
colleague, boss) and learn to live with them without getting too serious about
them (and save a few bucks on psychotherapy later).

How to save money. Only those few who care about you will teach you how to
save money, everyone else wants you to spend your money. Etc. etc.

------
sgt101
My child is doing this; I've seen two situations where it was a help.

\- I took a chunk out of myself with an axe (idiot, tired, low blood sugar
tomfoolery); I got coached to calm down, and "this is a good opportunity to
practice mindfulness" was quoted at me. It was surprisingly helpful actually
:)

\- We stayed with some friends and one of their children had a typical 10yrld
meltdown (over xbox); my child took themselves off to another room and
practiced mindfulness to avoid getting upset.

So, it appears to be rubbish, but in practice seems to give tools that work,
at least a bit!

------
fooblat
I really struggle with the term "mindfulness" as it seems it can mean anything
and everything, depending on who you ask. We had some Mindfulness workshops at
a previous employer and it was so full of woo and magical thinking that it
really turned me off and felt like a huge waste of time.

My current company also recently introduced a Mindfulness workshop only this
time it was really a basic meditation workshop which I enjoyed.

At this point, I don't even know how to react when something related to
Mindfulness is announced.

~~~
lm28469
> My current company also recently introduced a Mindfulness workshop only this
> time it was really a basic meditation workshop which I enjoyed.

I find it extremely weird for companies to offer these things. The only reason
they'd do it is to boost their own productivity / margin / whatever. As in "be
healthy because we need your ass on that chair and your brain working on our
problems".

There is already a thin enough line between personal and professional life.

[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/31/mindfu...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/31/mindfulness-
work-employers-meditation)

~~~
nulbyte
I want to be healthy. My employer needs me to be healthy. My employer is
willing to pay for some of it. Where's the problem?

~~~
lm28469
You're free to see it how you like.

I personally see it as one step in the direction of work totalitarianism where
everything you do is thoroughly designed for workplace productivity.

I have no doubt that if megacorps started to build bedrooms in their offices
(even with bunkbeds) and offered them for free a lot of people would gladly
move in there permanently without even thinking about the big picture.

But again, you do you, and you set your own boundaries.

------
altras
Awesome!

disclaimer: I've been involved in
[https://www.rulerapproach.org/](https://www.rulerapproach.org/) (as part of
the development team from www.camplight.net)

It's interesting that the news release from gov.uk[1] focuses that they are
doing one of the largest studies in the world with 370 schools... Looking
today at our RULER statistics we now have almost ~900 enlisted USA schools.

Combining those will definitely become one of the largest, unless there's
something similar in other parts of the world :O Have anybody heard something
like this in other countries?

I hope all these initiatives lead to less bullying and aggressive behavior :))

[1] [https://www.gov.uk/government/news/one-of-the-largest-
mental...](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/one-of-the-largest-mental-
health-trials-launches-in-schools)

------
setquk
I've had a lot of experience with schools and mental health issues. I have a
daughter under an EHCP due to a genetic problem that causes learning
difficulties and the competence is simply not there to handle even basic care
in this aspect. This isn't budgetary or process related, but individual human
competence is beyond terrible. This spans three "Ofsted outstanding" rated
schools and two local authorities. It has got to the point that there are
actually specialist charities set up to whack the schools back into place
legally when they screw up over and over again.

And we're trusting them with handling general mental health? What could
possibly go wrong?

Mindfulness is such a vague concept that it detatches the responsibility from
mental health as well.

------
pmden
Ah, it sounds like a rebranded "Personal Development Education". Having being
introduced to it from secondary school onwards, it was always a pleasure to
have a double period of PDE at the end of the day. Zero study involved. No
real homework. If we were lucky they'd roll out the big telly and an old tape
about bullying or hormones. Even when they put it before the first bell, it
worked out well as a place to do your maths homework.

Probably for the best they're starting younger these days. They might find
real buy-in from actual children.

------
FrankyHollywood
I'm always puzzled with the fact that people search for surrogate solutions
instead of pursuing the real issue.

If you don't feel well there is so much you can do. Make serious effort in
making friends, join a sports club or something else you like, solve long
running conflicts with other people, don't over- or under achieve on a level
which doesn't fit you (school/work), be proud with the things you accomplish
instead of never being satisfied, etc...

Perhaps it just seems easier to buy another self-help book, and take a
mindfulness class.

~~~
samdoidge
I agree problems need to be tackled at the source, but some self-help books
may help you deal with the problem. 12 Rules for Life is one such book.

~~~
faceplanted
12 Rules for life is a complete mess of strangely used bible quotes,
misattributed and misquoted philosophers, at one point blatant rape apology,
and an obvious lack of empathy from the author throughout.

But one thing is does do well that I wish people would focus on over the
obvious shortcomings of the author and why nothing has really replaced it yet
is that it tells you in no uncertain terms that if you want to go anywhere or
have any confidence in yourself you have to acknowledge that you live in a
system that isn't always fair and try to make it work for you, paralysis will
get you nowhere.

~~~
samdoidge
> 12 Rules for life is a complete mess of strangely used bible quotes,
> misattributed and misquoted philosophers

Can you be more specific with the misquoted and misattributed philosophers?

~~~
mayniac
Not specific to philosophers, but Contrapoints has a good breakdown of why the
term "postmodern neo-marxists", which JBP uses a number of times throughout
the book, shows a complete misunderstanding of modern philosophy. [1]

Not related to 12 rules, but Cuck Philosophy goes into JBP's lectures where he
references postmodernism and again appears to completely misunderstand the
fundamentals. [2]

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LqZdkkBDas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LqZdkkBDas)
(probably NSFW)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU1LhcEh8Ms](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU1LhcEh8Ms)

------
stiangrindvoll
I think this makes perfect sense. Good one from the Buddhists this one. It's
all about making the children stronger, tougher and more aware of them self
and people around them. How they affect the world and how the world affects
them. If the world is mean, harsh or tough, they are already capable to handle
them self.

One can also as an adult start practicing this. Can be quite exhilarating.

Here is a good book on the subject [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miracle-
Mindfulness-Gift-classic-re...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miracle-Mindfulness-
Gift-classic-
revered/dp/1846044820/ref=sr_1_1_twi_har_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1549448492&sr=8-1&keywords=9781846044823)

------
wawhal
About time for mindfulness to actually be a thing. Waiting for a time where
people are at least exposed to the idea of mindfulness, whether they continue
to practice it, is their choice. A subject in school is the best way to
achieve this.

For adults, if one thinks that they are already super happy and self-realised,
it still makes sense to try out the techniques of mindfulness just with a
consideration that they "could" be even more so. They "could" be missing an
entirely different dimension.

Personal experience: Up till the age of 21, I was enjoying my life, doing
well, fooling myself that I am the happiest I can be. That's when I took this
course in IIT Madras called Self Awareness [1]. I had taken it because people
said they always give good grades. The course caused a massive self-discovery
for me. It was all and all about mindfulness. The teachings were mainly from
the books: `Siddhartha` [2], `The power of now` [3] and `Stop sleep walking
through life` [4]. They introduced us to relaxing exercises, meditation and
breathing techniques along with some ideas to watch yourself while you are
getting emotionally vulnerable. Briefly, the course was about being conscious
of your existence, about feeling one with the present and about figuring
yourself out for real. It has been 4 years since and I can clearly see that I
am a different person, I have much less fights, I am rarely depressed, I
handle criticism much better, I am much more productive in my work and most
important of all, I have the clarity about who I am.

Sucks to think that I wouldn't have known (never mind achieved) all this if it
weren't for a mindfulness course. Props to the schools in England for this
initiative.

[1]
[https://courses.iitm.ac.in/course/info.php?id=849](https://courses.iitm.ac.in/course/info.php?id=849)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhartha_(novel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhartha_\(novel\))
[3]
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6708.The_Power_of_Now](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6708.The_Power_of_Now)
[4]
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/258519.Stop_Sleep_Walkin...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/258519.Stop_Sleep_Walking_Through_Life_)

~~~
LunaSea
Making it a subject removes that "choice" you talk about and makes it
mandatory.

------
fdggdfsvscvsd
"children and teenagers struggling to get to grips with how they fit into the
increasingly complex modern world"

Isn't that basically the job of children, and has always been?

Not to denounce the efforts to improve their mental health. Just saying some
struggle seems normal and unavoidable, probably even necessary.

~~~
DanBC
Mindfullness doesn't aim to eliminate struggle. Children still have to sit
exams; they still have chances to enter competition. And mindfulness won't,
for example, remove a child from poverty.

What it might do is stop children killing themselves as a result of adversity.

Rates of death by suicide in the UK have been declining recently, but not for
young people. We also know that rates of self-harm for young people are
increasing, and self harm is a significant predictor of death by suicide.

~~~
fdggdfsvscvsd
I must admit, I don't see how positive thinking could possibly help?

Assuming suicides are usually a result of violence (bullying by peers,
pressure by parents and teachers...). Wouldn't it be better to show practical
ways out of it? Saying "I'm so great and thankful" while bullies pounce on you
might feel rather hollow quickly?

Don't get me wrong, this seems to be set up as an experiment, which seems like
a good thing. Maybe they'll find it will actually help.

Your argument sounds like "something has to be done, because..." \- but
something is not always the right thing.

------
emmelaich
Not unrelatedly - another story on the front page today:

    
    
        The Decline of Historical Thinking
    

Mindfulness is not new, it's just the word that is new.

------
stuaxo
Great, except that we have gone so test crazy 5 year olds are getting homework
in the UK and being trained for exams.

------
mapcars
>“Children will start to be introduced gradually to issues around mental
health, well-being and happiness right from the start of primary school,” he
added.

Why wouldn't adults just solve their mental problems instead of introducing
them to children? Children have no problems with happiness or well-being. It's
us who should learn from them.

 _big facepalm_

~~~
fiala__
> Children have no problems with happiness or well-being.

Have you ever met a child IRL?

~~~
mapcars
In my experience kids, until a certain age, run around, scream, shout, full of
excitement, happiness, and life.

But once they start looking at adults - all they see only dark, gloomy,
lifeless serious faces and so they start becoming the same.

If adults want to do something about it - we should teach happiness ourselves
first. Kids will follow automagically.

~~~
dTal
Are you suggesting we _shouldn 't_ teach mindfulness to children? That it's
not a useful skill? That the time would be wasted?

>“It’s not just to make them feel better in the short-term,” Dr. Deighton
said, “but to better equip them for later in life.”

~~~
mapcars
I think if needed it can be learned later, I don't see any problem with that.
I started being interested in meditation around 23 when I was on the very
bottom of my emotional state.

But I see that most people around me never experienced this and for them,
meditation and yoga is an exotic exercise.

One thing which I really don't like here is instead of giving kids free time
to experience life themselves they will add one more boring official class.

~~~
mercer
> One thing which I really don't like here is instead of giving kids free time
> to experience life themselves they will add one more boring official class.

Being perpetually 'busy' and treating life as a collection of planned
activities, like homework, classes, courses, workshops, appointments, etc. is
something that runs deep in our entire (Western?) society, whether school-
going or working age.

Mindfulness as yet another one of those activities feels uncomfortably like a
band-aid solution that is dangerous precisely _because_ it works.

It's a bit like taking aspirin to deal with headaches when really you should
just stop drinking so much coffee and working so much.

I do think mindfulness can be more than that. I've experienced how beneficial
it can be to make it part of life rather than just (or only) another planned
activity, especially when it's a part or underpinning of a larger 'framework'
(in my case I lean towards Zen Buddhism).

