
“Vacations are for the weak” - sethbannon
http://sethbannon.com/vacations-are-for-the-weak
======
glesica
It is unfortunate that so many people are stuck in jobs that don't offer
sufficient time off. It seems fairly common for employees to "start"* with
just two weeks of paid time off (and many, I think, even lack access to unpaid
leave for non-medical reasons).

One might argue that two weeks is sufficient for a week-long vacation every
six months, but most people I know use most of their time off for family
obligations and "work outside of work" like home repairs. This is a crap
situation.

* Quotes because it is becoming less and less common to work for a company for decades, so the traditional system of awarding vacation based on length of tenure is becoming more and more insane. How many people never even get past the initial level of paid time off before switching jobs?

~~~
cookiecaper
I think it's true that we're stuck in an uncanny valley between the old ways
of lifelong employer/employee commitment and the more modern ways of
transitive, as-needed-type employment. The old way was always dangerous, but
there was a strong social expectation that you'd take care of your people. Now
no one has "people" any more per se, so the social expectations of committed
employment have dissipated.

However, I _don't_ think the answer to this is to depend on companies to issue
more vacation time. That's expensive for everyone, and it's hard for little
guys to compete with the bigger guys who can afford to pay 6-12 weeks of
salary to someone who isn't working. The answer, I think, is for each
individual to take more individual responsibility, save their money, work in
contracted increments, and go on vacation between contracts.

We should complete the transition and get out of the uncanny valley.

~~~
glesica
That would be nice, but as long as healthcare is also tied to employment, it
won't happen. Those same people who have their time off eaten up by
obligations generally can't afford to be without health insurance for two
weeks every few months. Additionally, they can't justify paying for private
health insurance when their employer forces them to accept its own coverage
(and won't give them the cash equivalent).

Also, I think that while "contract" employment is nice for programmers, there
are a large number of jobs (majority?) for which that simply doesn't make much
sense because it increases training costs for employers. It is still, to this
day, very common for employers to look for employees who plan to stick around
for awhile. They want the best of both worlds, basically, long-term employees
who can be laid off at a moment's notice.

~~~
timr
Under the ACA, health care is no longer tied to employment. It's practically
the _whole point_ of the individual mandate that is being villianized -- when
everyone has to buy insurance, everyone can be placed in the same risk pool,
including individual buyers.

It's not as sensible a system as single payer, but it's a big step toward
making people less dependent on their boss for their health.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Under the ACA, health care is no longer tied to employment.

Under the ACA, health care is very much tied to employment, and (except that
the new employer mandates have been delayed in implementation) even more
employers are required to provide insurance. It's true that there is a new
_additional_ individual mandate that falls on people who _both_ have a certain
minimum income level _and_ do not have employer-provide health insurance, but
the existing incentives that tie health insurance to employers remain and new
mandates that encourage employer-tied health insurance exist.

> It's not as sensible a system as single payer, but it's a big step toward
> making people less dependent on their boss for their health.

This is true insofar that the exchanges by existing, the larger risk pools for
individual insurance purchases, and the subsidies for low-to-moderate income
workers (and the Medicaid expansion for lower incomes) make it less likely
that you will end up with _no_ insurance that you can afford if you lose your
job, it doesn't do much to make it any less likely that you won't be
financially able to retain your _existing_ insurance (and access to the
particular provider network it has) if you lose your job.

------
equalarrow
I think the big takeaway here is a lot of companies don't care, these are the
rules and you accept them or not. Most people accept them - they feel like
they have to. I've done it quite a few times.

But what we really need is more self-realization like this at the top. This is
where the change for these sorts of policies can happen. On one hand, it's
really sad that we're so work obsessed here - money is more important than
people so much of the time. But, on the other hand, there is still room and
freedom to make your own way and write your own rules.

I think about this topic a lot, especially because I am fighting burnout
myself. I didn't do any work for most of xmas break and when I went back this
week I kept thinking "I need another few months off". I even had to push for
the two days after xmas off - there was a little push back from the ceo since
we're a small 4 person company. But, I'm a little older than everyone and I
was thinking "fuck it, I need to chill".

Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone
else's too). Sure, there are tradeoffs with that, but there's something about
working when you want, where you want. I think there can definitely be a
balance between being on vacation a lot and outsourcing all the non-important
work to other people who will do it. Time Ferris is a great read for this type
of living and it exemplifies the work to live not live to work thing (or work
as little as possible and _really live_ ).

I did a vacation a few years ago where my wife and mother in-law went to
Spain. It was awesome, my first time there, but I was 'pressured' by work to
keep crankin on our app. It was such bullshit and I was really pissed about
that pressure - vacation was not vacation. I told myself: 1) I'd never work
for someone else on vaca again - ever, and 2) I'd never make anyone else do
that. Needless to say after a few days I was like, 'fuck this, this is the
stupidest thing in the world. I'm in one of the best food and historical
places in the world and the guys at home want me to keep coding. Bullshit.'

I think there's a point where you either keep going with everyone else's rules
or you make your own. Get busy livin or get busy dyin. I'm at the point in my
life where I'm getting to the last of dyin for someone else's deal and
starting to live for my own. It's not impossible, just take discipline and
focus. Otherwise, me, and everyone else is working under someone else's thumb,
by their rules, working on vacation. Dumb.

~~~
com2kid
> On one hand, it's really sad that we're so work obsessed here - money is
> more important than people so much of the time.

Who says it is about money? What if it is about making an impact upon the
world? About creating products that touch millions of lives, about doing our
small part to make the world a better place?

Then again I'm not good at vacations. I don't switch off well, I'm the guy
reading a book or playing a game while watching TV. Heck at times I'll play
two video games at once, or play a game while reading an article. A two second
pause in action in one game is plenty of time to alt tab out, read half a
sentence, and alt-tab back in.

Heck two seconds feels like an eternity at times!

> Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone
> else's too).

Nope, although a good profit sharing plan would be appreciated! I love working
within a team of people, we can get a lot more done together than as
individuals!

~~~
eli_gottlieb
>Who says it is about money? What if it is about making an impact upon the
world?

Business is about money. You want to make an impact on the world? Go into
something other than business: volunteering, activism, organizing, politics,
any of that stuff.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
Yep. You can do both but 99% of the time if a business has to choose it will
choose money.

~~~
benmathes
Money is an indirect representation of impact. It's not perfect, but positive
impact can be rewarded financially.

------
edent
This is just crazy. In the UK, the minimum holiday entitlement is 28 days
(Full details at [https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-
rights](https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights)). That usually does
_not_ include Bank Holidays - unless you're working somewhere a bit sketchy -
so that's another 7 days (although you can't decided when to take them).

In some companies I've worked for, HR can force you to take holiday if it
looks like you've not been using it.

I'm not claiming the UK is a Socialist paradise, but I shudder when I look at
the terms of employment with US companies.

Do you want a happy, healthy, dedicated, and motivated workforce? Or do you
just want to burn people out as quickly as possible and then replace them?

~~~
Iftheshoefits
The latter, almost uniformly. Over here employers cry about having a shortage
of skilled workers to hire one day and the next either lament at how
ungrateful and spoiled the ones they already employ seem to be when they balk
at working another 60 hour week or negatively compare the ones who are
efficient and have families to the 20-something single guy who happily toils
away until midnight every day.

It's a ridiculous class system we have in this country, no doubt.

------
darrelld
"Preventing burnout is part of your job. Staying well rested is part of your
job."

More employers need to understand this. At my last job I felt like I was close
to burning out. I was getting involved in management duties, customer service,
hardware design(not area of expertise at all), maintaining a back-end and
front-end, dabbling in some networking, aiding in negotiating airtime rates,
and looking up new parts to cut costs.

For the first few months it was all fun as we were trying to give legs (and
profit!) to an offshoot business from the main business. I was the only
technical person with the flexibility to to juggle all of those tasks and
keeping costs low was a priority so I was happy to help this fledgling
business by giving my time and energy to all these different areas. I never
learned as much as I did during that time but there came a time when I felt
the burnout coming on. I was getting less done and was losing interest in
going to work.

I decided to take a 'staycation'. I filed for a week off where I planned to
just stay at home and do whatever I saw fit for that week.

I got teased about taking time off just to stay at home. "Why don't you just
come to work if you're planning to stay home? What's the point of the
vacation? You sure are lazy."

All of these comments were light heartedly and in jest, but it seemed like
most people really didn't understand the concept of taking some time off just
to catch a breath.

I took the time off and came back fresher than ever and pushed through my todo
list faster than I had been before I took time off. All I did during that week
was manage my finances, watch netflix, clean my apartment and run some errands
that had been piling up.

~~~
venomsnake
After more than 5 years I am currently on 16 day break where I just stay and
do nothing but benchpresses and deadlifts. The refreshment is amazing.
Sometimes you just need to relax a bit.

I am getting to the point of feeling bored and longing to get back to work.
Awesome feeling.

------
dirktheman
Here in The Netherlands we have a legal minimum of 4x the amount of hours you
work per week for time off. So you work 40 hrs, you get 160 hrs off each year.
The vast majority of employers give more, though. I haven't seen less than 24
days off. In addition to that, you get 8% of your yearly gross income as
"vacation money" in the month of May.

I never get why most Americans have so much trouble with taking/giving time
off. Or working part-time, for that matter, which is basically impossible,
from what I've heard.

~~~
pseudonym44
> you get 8% of your yearly gross income as "vacation money" in the month of
> May.

I dislike this type of policy, which essentially acts to obfuscate your true
gross income.

"Oh, you understood that we would add vacation money? We included vacation
money in the quoted income, sorry."

I'm not in the Netherlands but I've been in this situation and had to take
frustrating legal action (which, under new legislation, I would now have to
pay for).

~~~
dirktheman
It's pretty well known, when you're quoted a yearly salary, the 8% is usually
included. When you're quoted a monthly salary, it isn't. Weird, I know, but
it's so common here that almost everybody knows. Though i can imagine it's
frustrating for people from abroad!

On a side note, true gross income doesn't say that much. You have taxes, 401K
plans that are sometimes partially included, meal plans, etc. i had a bigger
paycheck at my last job, but my net income is higher at my current job.
Unfortunately, the only way to truly know what you're making is to wait a
month after starting working somewhere, and check your bank account.

------
dylandrop
As an engineer who works for a startup, I find that one of the troubling
aspects of this heroic startup narrative is the hacker who stays up all night
voraciously coding and then makes a breakthrough at 2AM. While there exist
those of us programmers who do enjoy doing this, I find that this image is
more commonly appropriated by more business-minded folk to squeeze that last
feature out before a deadline. After all, what seems better to you? An image
of yourself as "hacking into the mainframe" or some sort of stock-programmer-
movie imagery, or the guy who's forced to stay there by social pressures from
your boss? Point is, if you love what you're working on, don't let me stop
you, but you don't have to be a slave to the code to prove you're passionate.

Furthermore, another day of work != another day of productive work. I'd say
that when I'm put in an office for 40 hours a week, week after week, I get
less and less productive as the process becomes more and more tedious. Very
infrequently do I have one full day of solid work with no distractions.
However, when I've been away from the office for a while, I notice that my
work becomes more interesting for me, and I can give it more focus. I'd be
willing to bet this is true for others as well.

------
rdtsc
I've written about this before and others too. You'll notice the older you get
the more you'll start valuing your time (your time alone, with family, with
friends) than you'd value money.

Someone offers you a job with $30k more but you have to drive an extra hour
each way plus you get only 3 weeks vacation, at some point that will start to
look like a bad deal, but when if you were younger it might look like a great
deal.

Look for companies that offer you decent vacation time (and make you take it).
Sometimes those that give you "unlimited" will pressure you into not taking it
by piling on work, or guilting you into working, so beware.

You only have one life to live, at the end maybe you'll be excited about
designing an awesome SaaS system or Android app, but chances are you'll
probably be happier about time spent with your close family.

~~~
k3n
I've also personally known several who got canned for taking too much
"unlimited" vacation time, even though the amount they took was far from
extraordinary.

------
lloyddobbler
Brilliant discussion.

Before I came to work at FullContact, I went through the same sort of guilt
every time I left for vacation.

Nevermind that I was working 60-hour weeks. Nevermind that I was plugged in,
often checking email & sneaking in work, while away on "vacation" (much to the
annoyance of my fiancee). And it wasn't unique to me - talking to most of my
friends, it seemed like a common thread in the startup world. If we take
vacation at all, we don't leave work at work. I guess I had been in it so
long, I didn't even notice anymore.

This year I took my first Paid, Paid Vacation - no email. No internet. No work
of any sort allowed. And I came back more refreshed than I can ever remember
being. Not only with ideas that had germinated while away, but also an extra
drive I hadn't had in a long time. It was freaking amazing.

Sad thing is, I probably wouldn't have done it, were I not working for a place
that made "unplugging" a condition of my getting a bonus. The overwhelming
"work more" startup culture is a tough thing to break free of.

------
jasonkester
Indeed. It amazes me how willing people (well, Americans at least) are to give
up vacation time. All it takes is the smallest whiff of a threat to somebody's
all-important "Career", and they'll back down from any plans for a real
vacation. Other folks I've worked with simply don't even bother, and if forced
to take the remainder of their paid time off in December, they'll just hang
out on the couch with the XBox.

Makes no sense.

Anyway, here's the obligitory six year old blog post:

[http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-
vaca...](http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vacation-is-
only.html)

------
Nursie
The rationale here seems to be that you need proper downtime to maintain
efficiency. That's true and all and great but it's still ass-backward.

There's more to life than work. Without adequate time off you've no time to
live.

~~~
svantana
I think the point is rather: even if you're doing the startup thing and
devoting your whole life to a project for a few years - even then you should
take time off (and not feel guilty).

------
vikas5678
I'm curious to see what people here think of "unlimited vacation" days policy
in companies like Netflix. The place where I work has the same policy. I'm
inclined to believe this "vacations are for the weak" idea tends to make
employees fewer vacations than they would if they were, say allocated a fixed
15 PTO days.

~~~
nairteashop
We didn't track vacations at my last company, because we agreed with the
Netflix principle of hiring the right employees and giving them a lot of
freedom, including allowing them to take whatever vacation days they needed,
whenever they needed it.

There were worries initially by some about employees abusing this policy, but
that has not happened once in the 6+ years we've been around. However as we've
grown, I strongly suspect that the opposite is happening, i.e. employees are
not taking as much vacation as (I feel) they should, perhaps due to the
feelings of guilt mentioned in the article. This sucks because, unlike jobs
where vacation days are tracked, we can't even compensate them for any unused
days.

So over time I've come to believe that unlimited vacations days is something
that sounds good in theory but not so much in practice, especially as a
company scales. I would instead recommend the traditional model of tracking
vacation days, but with a very liberal number of days (vs. the typical measly
10 days a year or whatever).

------
coldcode
At my employer (here in the US) we start at 18 days. People who've been here
for 10 years have 33 days. There are even people who've been at the company
for 25 years who have 53 days (though today the max is 23 days). Our parent
company is in travel (a GDS, think reservation system) and has been around for
50 years. You can't save up from year to year (except if your manager is OK
with it) so people take the time off. People are generally happy and
productive and the company does well. Why anyone thinks working 90 hour weeks
and never taking time off is a good idea is beyond me (even if it's your own
startup at some point you will burn out).

~~~
Iterated
We work for the same company. I've always wondered how many of us there are on
HN.

~~~
coldcode
At least 2 :-)

------
alooPotato
Devils Advocate: people often use the excuse of "I'm feeling burnt out" to not
push themselves. Taking your metaphor of the professional runner, while its
clear that they need breaks between marathons, they also push themselves to
extremes during training and races to make themselves better.

I think people often feel like they are the technology equivalent of a
professional athlete and need time to recover, yet while they are working,
they never actually push themselves to their physical (and mental) limits.

No argument that if you work hard, you need vacations. Thats absolutely
correct.

~~~
mogrim
Athletes don't push themselves to extremes during training - I remember
reading about the training schedule of a pro cyclist (Cavendish IIRC), and it
was a lot lighter than my usual day. He was getting up early, doing a couple
of hours in the morning, lunch+siesta, then another couple of hours in the
afternoon. And nice and early to bed. (He also had someone to cook for him, do
his washing, etc. etc.)

Racing is of course a different matter, but even the hardest working athlete
(say during the playoffs or a major tournament) is only playing every other
day. The Tour de France riders are some of the hardest working, but even then
the top riders are only expected to actually be competitive in one major race
per year...

~~~
alooPotato
What?

I guess it depends on your definition of extreme. My definition is that they
are constantly pushing the boundary of what they are capable of, i.e. always
just surpassing their current proficiency so that they can constantly get
better.

I don't see that same level of intensity in most tech workers I've met.

~~~
mogrim
I think you're overestimating how hard athletes push the boundary of what
they're capable of during training: professional athletes are very careful not
to overtrain, as that inevitably leads to injury.

That said, I'm not sure we're completely disagreeing, perhaps it's more
semantics than anything else... but my definition of intensity also includes a
time factor - and a professional athlete has loads of rest time available,
something a lot of (most?) tech workers don't seem to have.

There are some sample times here (no guarantees of accuracy, but they seem in
line with what I've read previously in interviews), the highest seems to be
about 40hrs/week:

[http://www.timeout.com/london/events/fitness-tips-from-
olymp...](http://www.timeout.com/london/events/fitness-tips-from-olympic-
athletes)

[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080908091244AA...](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080908091244AAvqWBS)

[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130115143443AA...](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130115143443AAsI9Fe)

------
danielharan
"Preventing burnout is part of your job. Staying well rested is part of your
job."

Excuse me? You don't just take a vacation so you can be more productive at
work.

~~~
chrisgd
What do you take a vacation for then?

~~~
davidw
Because you have a limited amount of time on the planet, and not everyone
wants to spend all of it at work?

~~~
chrisgd
Right. And how is that different from taking some time away and coming back
more productive?

------
hawkharris
This brings to mind a speech by Arianna Huffington, who argued that too many
professionals in D.C. brag about never getting rest.

She was on a date with a man who bragged, "I only got three hours of sleep
last night." Huffington replied, "This dinner would be more interesting if you
had gotten six."

------
paul
I like to tell the startups: We invest in people, so if you aren't taking care
of yourself, then you aren't taking care of my investment.

Big successes take a long time -- Dropbox is almost seven years old now and
still has a long way to go. If you burn out after a few years, it's unlikely
to be good for anyone.

------
alexkus
Have done "Live to work". 60+ hour weeks, using vacations to recover from
(near) burnout, etc.

Now doing "Work to live". Moved to a 4 day week. 3-day weekends. Any extra
hours are my own choice (and rare). 27 vacation days a year[1] giving me 1
week off every ~3 months plus an extra week off around Christmas. Never get
near burnout.

Shame it took me so long to realise that "Work to live" is much better than
the former.

1\. Pro-rated to my reduced hours though. This is the UK so I also get 8 bank-
holidays a year.

------
larrys
"Professional runners take long breaks between marathons. They make no excuses
for this, and no one judges them for it, because everyone knows that rest and
recuperation is an essential part of being a pro athlete. The same is true for
entrepreneurs (and everyone, really). Preventing burnout is part of your job."

Everyone is different and even comparing muscles is not the same.

Some people may need to take time off to prevent burnout others may not. I
worked 5 or 6 years without a break and didn't think anything of it.

That said it's probably natural to try and elevate oneself when you have some
ability that someone else doesn't appear to have. Some people do need less
sleep (not me) and would almost certainly have an opinion of someone who need
more than 8 hours.

The thing about "making fun" of other people is that you isolate one thing
(that you identify as negative) not everything about them. And there is
nothing wrong with trying to perk yourself up because you can do 20 pullups
with your feet out while the other guy (who only needs 4 hours of sleep) is
focusing on his extra productivity as a way of feeling good about himself..
Human nature.

------
YZF
My old boss used to say that the earth still turns when you're not there. The
earth does not need you to be working to turn.

Later on I worked for a great company called Creo. We had "banked time". If
you had to work long hours to get stuff done you could bank that time and take
it off later. And people did that. 3-4 weeks vacation on top of that. With
that we created about $1B of value over ten years. Some people abused the
system but they were a minority and since we had 360 review they normally
wouldn't get away with it.

Here in Canada we have parental leave. When you have children, husband and
wife can take up to 35 weeks (combined). You don't get full pay but many
employers will top up to full pay. You can't be fired or laid off for taking
this time off. When my youngest daughter was born I took 2.5 months off...
When I work on something I am 100% committed. I work hard, long hours. However
I will take vacation and disconnect completely. Guess what, when I'm back it's
as if I just left yesterday. As they say, when you die you'll never regret not
having worked more.

------
loomio
I absolutely love work, and I've been bored out of my skull for the last week
because everyone is on holiday over Christmas/New Years. I have organized my
life so I am working on the most important and interesting problems I can
find, with the best people, and we own the business together and no one is
getting taken advantage of for the profit of others. In this scenario, there's
pretty much nothing I'd rather be doing besides working.

At the same time, burnout is real. I tend to moderate myself on a daily basis,
taking the time I need to get enough sleep, exercise, eat well, socialize,
etc. Others follow a pattern of working too hard daily and then need whole
weeks off to recover now and then. But looking at rest, whether daily or in
chunks, as an investment in long term productivity, is the only thing that
makes sense to me.

------
AndrewKemendo
What is not being addressed here is that different people can take varying
levels of stress before they "burn out." From a simply practical standpoint,
it is a competitive trait to be able to work longer without being able to burn
out.

The fact that you are competing with people like that in every marketplace
means that not needing, or even desiring a break or vacation _may_ be a key
determinant of success in a highly competitive market.

I think that is why you see this no rest attitude so prevalent in very
competitive schools, elite military units, wall street and other hyper
competitive markets where razor thin distinctions can mean big differences.

~~~
lucisferre
You make a pretty bold claim here that working more days in a year is a
significant competitive advantage. Well actually you specifically say razor
thin distinctions but go on to further claim that in things like
entrepreneurship they mean big differences.

Both are pretty bold claims actually and I'd be surprised to see someone back
them up, but I'm pretty dubious there is any merit to them.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
I suppose to me it seems pretty intuitive that holding all else equal, the
person who puts more work in (days per year) will have a better outcome. There
isn't always a trade off, some people can just work more before losing
capacity. There are those people in every industry; and that is my point, the
mere existence of these people as your competition means they will be able to
outwork you if you have a lower stress tolerance.

The standard counter is that some X-factor like a creativity multiplier comes
into play that the "overworked" person doesn't have. I have also heard/read
the "Over x amount of hours worked per day productivity drops." I think that
holds for _most people_ but not for the outliers who choose not to take
vacations.

Interesting interpretation as well about markets as all of the examples I gave
were decidedly not entrepreneurial in nature so I don't agree with your
assessment that I made that "bold" claim, however I would probably extend the
theory there as well.

~~~
lucisferre
Nothing you've said backs up the claim that more days per year = more profit
or output for the business, or that these so-called outliers exist. Never
heard the adage "work smarter, not harder"? If I was going to take outliers it
would be on the intelligence and creativity scales, not the physiological
hardiness scale.

This idea of more work is better is intuitive only at a completely trivial
level and one that's unlikely to bear out in an environment of any sort of
complexity.

Sure, I suppose if you're talking about a widgit factories where people repeat
a task and have quotes, maybe more hours is better. (Though even then maybe
not if on the whole you have higher burnout rates.)

You appear to take this at face value without even doing much digging. There
is a myriad of evidence to support the contrary to your claim. Heck try
Googling: "Working more hours _is_ more productive" and you'll only find
articles supporting the contrary.

[https://www.google.ca/search?q=working+longer+hours+is+more+...](https://www.google.ca/search?q=working+longer+hours+is+more+productive&oq=working+longer+hours+is+more+productive&aqs=chrome..69i57.9104j0j4&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8)

------
prawks
A massive component I see to rest vs. work is flexible scheduling, not just
vacation time. You don't need as much time off if you are working at a pace
where you are comfortable and not overly stressed. I'm not sure it applies to
startup founders who lack the security of a stable job or demand delivery for
immediate market presence, but for people with more wiggle room working
"slower" and smarter is very rewarding, and in my experience yields higher
quality results due to a more ample time to digest ideas.

It also can carry a perhaps heftier social stigma than extensive vacationing
if viewed in the wrong light, because of the potential for abuse. If I watch a
movie in the middle of the day between working, how is that viewed? Is it
different than if I were to take a mid-afternoon bike ride on a Tuesday for a
couple of hours? They are both ways that I can decompress and allow me to come
back to ideas later with a fresh perspective, and that's sometimes the most
valuable thing to me when I'm working.

I would take flexible scheduling over excessive vacation time any day of the
week, and I'm fortunate that the software engineering field is one where
working from anywhere at any time is extremely easy.

------
marvin
European CS graduate here. I will never do salaried software engineering work
in the United States. The countless stories like this one, and the horror
stories in the comments under this story (most of whom aren't even consciously
described as horror stories) describe a toxic culture which would ruin my
mental health. There is no way in hell I will subject myself to this kind of
pressure, even if the pay is 30% higher. (Per year at least, per hour it looks
very even since 40 hours a week appears to be a pipe dream in most places).

I never thought I would type this out, but there you have it. I did actually
have some vague ambitions of working in the US once, but I have eventually
realized that the work environment is a bad fit for my style of work. Declined
an on-site interview with Microsoft this fall due to a vague feeling that my
questions about vacations and overtime were answered too vaguely, and after
reading this thread I think I finally have a grasp on what stopped me.

It's really too bad. You guys have the most interesting environment for
software developent in the whole world, with a huge amount of opportunities
for growing and learning. But it's just not worth it.

------
wellboy
I think looking at the analogy to a marathon gives the best comparison.

If you've run a marathon, you trained months for it and you have run the 26
miles (made your startup ramen-profitable) then then you can take time off.

If you haven't even run a marathon yet, yeah maybe you've run 5mi a couple of
times, what do you want to take time off from? You need to run 15mi another 10
times now and the run the 26 mi marathon. Then you can take time off.

I think once a startup is ramen profitable, the founders can take some time
off, because then it's much more about making the right strategy decisions,
which formally take 0 time. It's just a matter of connecting all the variables
correctly and that works much better in a balanced mind than in an overworked
mind.

If the product of the startup isn't even finished though or it doesn't have
traction yet, putting in the hours is much more needed than creativity,
because thinking about strategy is a waste of time anyway before you get to
the next milestone. It will all change once you launch anyway.

------
mcdowall
In the last year I've taken about 10 weeks vacation, travelled all across the
States, Hawaiian Islands, Fijian Islands (Yasawa's), Australia, Sweden and
Snowboarding twice.

Contracting (think on site day rate) has allowed me to do this but only
because I engineered it this way, I looked at Job boards a few years back and
saw the qualifications I needed to get to get to the position and sort of
rates that would allow me to take that time off to strike a good work/life
balance.

I work 6 month contracts (sometimes longer) and take a month or so off at the
end. Doing so not only allows me free thinking time and the opportunity to
meet new people, travel to great places and experience new things but I also
find I'm a lot more refreshed and valuable to the hirer for the next contract.

I know this isn't possible for everyone, hell, people need to work permanent
roles right, but striking a good work / life balance is possible if you look
for it.

------
guard-of-terra
Vacations are fantastic. Writing from Helsinki where I'm on vacation. Along
with hundreds thousands of my compatriots who all have around ten days off on
the new year.

Which helps forcing even people who avoid vacations to have some.

In my opinion, those who don't travel don't live, and that's where you need
vacations. Visiting your relatives, too.

------
kappaknight
There's really no benefit to glorifying "busy."

With the amount of technology and automation we have, and how productive we
have become, we should be heading towards 4 day weeks, and month long
vacations.

No shame in taking a break at all here. Also, work to live, don't live to
work; or you'll miss out on everything important.

------
gygygy
Why would you even care to give an excuse to anyone? We need to take vacations
because that is one of the reasons we work so hard. If we didn't need
vacations, if we didn't want to eat what we love and do things to spoil
ourselves, might as well give up everything and go live in a jungle.

------
mcgwiz
And how is the author instituting this knowledge culturally at work?

The implied equation of sleep and vacation is far too crude. Mixed in the post
is the golden nugget that it's necessary not to burn out. Vacation is simply
one very specific way to account for that, and probably not even the best. I'd
say a much more effective way is to make realistic expectations of team
members and yourself, such that no one is being over-worked for indefinite
periods. That is much more culturally advantageous. But I do acknowledge the
difficulty of instituting that in a startup, what with its bursty nature of
stress and periods of slack, so vacation might be more appropriate there then
elsewhere.

That's not to say vacation isn't important. It definitely is. Just not as the
primary defense against burnout.

------
w_t_payne
I really pushed myself hard between 2007 and 2010, working my nuts off, on
more than one occasion working continuously over a weekend to hit a monday
deadline. Unfortunately, this succession of gruelling 60+ hour long crunches
meant that I came off the boil a bit in 2011 and 2012 -- and 2013 has been a
total write-off, from a productivity perspective. As I enter 2014, I feel like
I am back in the game (a bit) but wonder what I can do to keep the fires
burning whilst also staving off the consequences? I far prefer working hard
than the long months of tiredness and weary fatigue with no immediate cause,
and whilst getting from one state to another feels easy, getting back again
seems rather more difficult and time-consuming.

------
jheriko
> So next time you’re planning a vacation, announce it with pride.

Don't ever do this unless you understand the financial situation of your
employees. I've seen so many complaints about bosses taking even reasonable
amounts of holiday when they go somewhere fancy tell everyone about it
excitedly or with pride come back and yammer about it all day or longer...
working class common sense is to not do this :P

although by working class magic when a co-worker does it thats fine...

you are probably fine in a tech office and if you are US based the level of
wealth is high enough that its pretty likely your employees can afford a
holiday abroad, or even somewhere local and nice and don't use their holiday
days sitting at home trying not to spend their money...

------
bbarn
Having been on both sides of this fence, once as a manager, and several times
as an employee, I think the idea of "unlimited PTO" is too suspect to smart
employees, and the only real viable option as a good (productive) developer is
3-4 weeks vacation, and not complaining about "crunch time". The problems
arise when "crunch time" turns into "all the time". It's at that point you've
just got to take advantage of this market and make your exit. 2 weeks for the
first three years on a job just isn't realistic, when you realize that that
extra 10-15K means missing out on things you enjoy or need to take time off
for.

------
marincounty
Men and time--It has haunted me for years. It might explain my hobby with
horology? I know there's a fine line between living every day as your last,
and indigent, but we drop so easily. The worst thing a teacher ever said was,
"Electricians collect 5 retirement checks after they retire." Their wives
collect 1/2 of the rest for years. I think about that statement everyday. I
think lack of true hobbies might account for some of the early deaths? I never
found the real answer. I don't want to know. Hay Mark, if you read this--you
were the best teacher I had. I hope you are doing well.

------
mcv
I don't understand or recognize this attitude at all. Vacation is important,
and everybody I've ever met recognizes this. Life can't be all work with no
time to relax. When a coworker goes on vacation, everybody wishes them a fun
time and wants to know where they're going.

But I'm not an American. If I understand correctly, Americans often get only 2
weeks off per year, and are often pressured to work more than 40 hours per
week. It's clearly a cultural thing. Though to me it seems that this
"sacrifice your life for work" culture is very harmful.

------
kartikkumar
I'm very glad I grew up in The Netherlands for this precise reason. Every
summer, I took a full eight weeks off with family and went to India to spend
time with the rest of the extended family. This remained the case through
college (although eight did become six).

I did half of my PhD research at UC Berkeley and it was quite insane for me to
note how rare it is that grad students take vacation. I love vacation and I
love coming back fully charged to work thereafter. Can't quite fathom how you
can adhere to a "no vacation" way of life.

------
nnq
...this, and realizing the "benefits of a _well-rested mind_ ", and fucking
accepting once and for all that "laziness is (most of the time) not a defect,
and in the right circumstances can be a success driving mind-set" ...but we'll
probably have above-human-level-AI before we get these basic truths finally
drilled into our heads and the heads of our children and having them replace
the christian-morality-driven-capitalism derived bullshit that we have in our
heads instead of it nowadays...

------
petdance
I am surprised to see that there is a word in Klingon for vacation:
[http://klingonska.org/dict/?q=vacation](http://klingonska.org/dict/?q=vacation)

------
cell303
This really struck me: "Preventing burnout is part of your job. Staying well
rested is part of your job". Many would rather consider optimizing one's
productivity as being part of the job, usually by introducing new self
management techniques, faster typing, etc (thinking of the lifehacker
variety). However all these gains would be obliterated by a single burn out
(think of it as a Black Swan event).

Staying well rested comes not only first, but will also increase your
productivity when measured over a longer period.

------
peterwwillis
Once I come back from vacation I need another vacation. I've gone so hard and
done so many things while exploring some new place that i'm exhausted. So
maybe the type of vacation should depend on what you're using it for?

For me, a relaxing "vacation" is snugging up in bed for an entire weekend and
doing nothing but eating, sleeping and watching fun shows with a loved one. If
you find it difficult to get away from work in your own home, try to structure
your day so you don't have time to check on work.

------
NAFV_P
_That attitude has been put to rest by a bevy of studies empirically showing
that sleep in fact makes you smarter, stronger, and more creative._

Oh, thanks a lot, that really gives me peace of mind. I'm going through a
rather bad insomniac phase, I get to sleep roughly once very 36 to 72 hours.
Mix that with writing C all day you start acting odd. The other day I made
some coffee, then realised I had used molasses instead of coffee grounds.

I never feel guilty when I am getting some sleep or being frivolous.

------
lettergram
I find it interesting to note, that I spend roughly 3 hours a day goofing off.
And in the past 5 years, I've never taken a vacation day, because every day I
love what I do and take my 3 hours to do what ever I desire. Taking vacations
(for me) would be painful, I can't stand being kept from my work. Then again,
my girlfriend needs a vacation once or twice a year to feel better and I don't
feel she is weak by any means. I just don't seem to need what she needs.

------
pstack
Vacation isn't for the weak; it's just for those who don't like their jobs
very much. If you love what you do, there's not enough time in the world for
you to do it as much as you want. If you're just working for a pay-check, then
the business day can't end fast enough for you and you're constantly watching
the clock.

I'm getting ever closer to forty and I've never taken a vacation and it has
been at least a couple of years since I've even had a day off due to illness
(and, then, only because I was so ill that I physically could not crawl out of
bed). My boss has been prompting me for dates when I want to use my vacation
for the last several years, because I've always been maxed-out, and I've been
coming up with excuses and delays to not have to take the time away.

A lot of that has to do with work-ethic. I strongly adhere to the belief that
a man's work is his legacy. It is his definition. More of it has to do with
how much I enjoy my work. If my work were more of a chore than a joy, I would
probably want to take vacations and would surely not hesitate to take a day or
three off when sick.

It's the same way that some people talk about how they can't wait for their
in-laws to go away when they're in-town and you never hear a word from other
people. In-laws are only a problem if you don't like them or can't stand them.
That isn't the case with everyone. Just like vacations and work.

~~~
mattlutze
^ This is why companies have to let a person cash vacation hours out. For some
people, their life is defined by this singular facet of existence, which, if
that is how they want to live their lives (and it doesn't come at the cost of
their mental/physical health and therefore reduce productivity), god bless.

But, I hope you're not also suggesting that everyone else adhere to that
standard. Because many of us appreciate time with friends, family and the like
as much as time working. For those people, who very well may love their jobs
as well, vacations are the necessary balancing point allowing the other parts
of their lives to share some of the daylight hours.

~~~
pstack
Certainly not. The point isn't that vacations are terrible and people who take
them are somehow lesser. It's that if you love what you do, then you can't
wait to do more of what you do. Vacation is another thing you can be doing but
is not this beacon on a hill that you escape to after a year of servitude.

If you don't really enjoy what you do, then you would probably spend most days
watching the clock, so you can go home. Watching the calendar, so you can have
one or two weeks to yourself.

Of course, you may love what you do and can't wait to do more of it, but have
external obligations and contexts that make you feel you need a vacation (from
life more than work) and, therefore, take time off to go do that. But that
isn't the context of most of these discussions. Most of these discussions are
presented as some sort of meager escape from the toils of oppression. That's
sad.

------
m0nastic
I wish more places let you pool your time off into a group that other people
could take. At every job I've ever had, I never use any of my vacation, and it
would be nice if I could give it to other people who are "vacation people".

I don't know how feasible a system would be though (I've heard of places that
do that for regular PTO, but not vacation).

------
anoplus
I would go as far as to say that freedom is our ultimate goal, not just for
preventing burnout. And the nature of laziness drives the most wonderful
innovations that has to do with automating things. So if you have a lot of
free time and the sky didn't fall, you are on the right track.

------
michaelwww
Author is still making excuses by writing this article. Vacations are normal
for almost other fields. My experience in the tech field leads me to believe
they should be mandatory for the "indispensable martyrs" who risk crashing and
burning and taking the company down with them.

------
kamilszybalski
I couldn't agree more with op.. I remember when I was younger (20) and working
on my first startup, my partner and I would work 6 days a week, some times
from 9am - 2am with only a break for dinner. I now realize that this type of
schedule is absolutely not sustainable.

------
quantumpotato_
How about for the "week"? It's tough to relax when you only take a day or two
off..

------
yodsanklai
"Preventing burnout is part of your job. Staying well rested is part of your
job."

Yes, but I don't see vacations (only) as a way to prevent burnout. To me, it's
an opportunity to travel the world, read, spend more time on my hobbies and so
on.

------
Segmentation
Many companies have vacation and sick leave the same. You can be sick, but
vacation less, or vice-versa. If you're predisposed with a weak immune system
and need a lot of sick leave during the year, well, sucks to be you at those
companies.

------
byoung2
_I recently got back from a five day holiday vacation to the Puerto Rican
island of Culebra_

I highly recommend Culebra to anyone in the US who likes white sand beaches.
One of my top 10 in the world, and top 3 in the Caribbean.

------
patatino
Can't believe what I'm reading here.. And I thought slavery was over.

~~~
gordaco
I've likened "post-vacation blues" to Drapetomania
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania))
since I knew about the latter.

------
atmosx
In 2014, no one would really need to argue about this, should be generally
accepted as a universal truth: Vacations are good.

The ancient Greeks were spot-on: «παν μέτρον άριστον» (all in good measure).

------
spande
Vacations also mean an opportunity to gain new experiences. One should apply
these new experiences to become a better person.

------
ommunist
Yup, the same way the work is for the poor.

------
Ryel
I thought this was FINALLY going to be an article on how coddled developers
and entrepreneurs are.

I was disappointed.

------
joelle
"...rest and recuperation is an essential part of being a pro"

Couldn't have said it better myself.

------
pmcpinto
Life without 3-4 weeks of time off a year to travel and to relax isn't the
same.

------
skilbjo
Culebra is beautiful! I just got back from Vieques, PR

------
Confusion
Vacations are for the weak and everyone is weak.

------
doorty
As are <= 40 hour work weeks.

------
shalalala
AKA Vacations are for the WEEK!

------
notastartup
This reminds me of the time I started working on a project and one of the
manager went on a vacation, leaving me with a pile load of directionless work.
After he came back, I was made aware that taking a break now would be bad, so
I didn't. The project went sideways, I was burnt out, somebody had to take the
blame.

Taking break really is part of the job, it strikes me even more reading this
article, because when you are expendable, you don't want to be burnt out as it
you make easy target as a scapegoat.

------
kimonos
Nice post! Anyone deserves a vacation in order to relax from everyday stresses
of life.. For me, I don't care if people label me as "weak" as long as I enjoy
every minute of my vacation.. (",)

------
the1
coding is for the dumb

