
Of abusive behavior in programming communities - symkat
http://rjbs.manxome.org/rubric/entry/1959
======
coffeemug

        ^    (IV)       |       (I)
        |  People       | People everyone
        |  everyone     |  wants to work
      n |  feels bad    |      with
      i |   for         |
      c |               |
      e +---------------+----------------
      n |   (III)       |       (II)
      e |  Get off      | People everyone
      s |  my lawn      |  just tolerates
      s |   people      |
        |               |
        |               |
        +------------------------------->
                      talent

~~~
fpgeek
It's worth noting that the borders between these categories aren't simple
vertical and horizontal lines.

Within limits, the more talent you have, the less niceness you can get away
with. In other words, the line between (I) and (II) slopes down.

The line between (IV) and (I) (and between (II) and (III), for that matter)
might also slope down, but that's complicated by the talent threshold being
more important, I believe.

~~~
numeromancer
_Within limits, the more talent you have, the less niceness you can get away
with._

This misreads the situation a little, I think. The more talented you are, the
more likely you are to recognize the value of “niceness” (in its current
meaning (“kind”) and its older meaning (“careful and particular”)). That's why
someone whose code is well-commented and carefully designed has shown more
talent than the arrogant trickster whose 2k-line functions full of 1-letter
variable names “comment themselves”.

------
AngryParsley
I completely agree with rjbs's opinion of online discourse. It is positively
_shameful_ how many communities are filled with insults, trolls, snark, and
incivility.

That said, I have some qualms with the proposed solution. In my experience,
"patience, correction, explanation, and an outpouring of civilly-worded
disapproval" are often not enough. Frequently, these methods do nothing more
than increase stress and waste time.

After reading Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism[1], I am convinced that
banning is vastly underused. Many of us are professionals. Our time is
valuable; our communities, even more-so. There are so many fools with so many
maladaptive behaviors. Considering what else we could be working on,
correcting them all simply isn't worthwhile. The opportunity cost is too high.

I wish this problem could be solved in a less forceful manner. Sadly, banning
is the most effective solution I've found.

1\. <http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/>

~~~
w1ntermute
> After reading Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism[1], I am convinced that
> banning is vastly underused. Many of us are professionals. Our time is
> valuable; our communities, even more-so. There are so many fools with so
> many maladaptive behaviors. Considering what else we could be working on,
> correcting them all simply isn't worthwhile. The opportunity cost is too
> high.

Let's take it a step further. I don't think any of us would object to paying a
nominal fee (say, $2/month) to obtain voting/posting privileges on HN.
Although this would drastically reduce the amount of activity on the site, it
would undoubtedly increase the quality of whatever activity remained. Not
because a lot of people wouldn't be able to afford it, but because a troll
wouldn't enter his credit card information and other personal details just to
obtain the ability to flame someone on the internet.

~~~
saraid216
It's an extremely common mistake to think that the pop psychology we pick up
by sheer experience is a sufficient measure to understand what works. It's
entirely too easy to forget that we, personally, are largely unaware of any
proven methods for cultivating gardens. We're running off the anecdotal data
that just happens to stick to our brains like burrs on a fur coat.

As others have duly stated, there are many people who are more than willing to
pay for the privilege of trolling. It might not even start that way: I paid
$40/mo to play a particular online game, and maintained my subscription as my
play dwindled and my forum trolling increased. I eventually cancelled, but
that was not an altruistic action: I simply needed to stop posting, and to
stop paying for a game I didn't enjoy anymore. If someone has a similar
experience with HN, you're relying on their self-control to end their own
privileges.

Quite frankly, no one knows how to police a community perfectly. This is why
religion was _invented_ , after all, why _politics_ exists. And see how that
turned out, a few thousand years later. We're struggling damn hard, despite
all the progress.

You never know what people will do. Every action, every ban, every harsh or
kind word, every (pay)wall around the garden, every disincentive, carrot,
stick, every reputation system, every voting system... you're going off your
gut, at the end of the day, because there is no unified theory of sociology
you can tap to actually justify it.

~~~
zby
I think that the biggest complication in this is the fact that the people who
want to police others are usually the same people who want to abuse others.

~~~
DanBC
I gently disagree with your post.

But I would agree that the meta anguish[1] that some forums go through is
often driven by people who just don't know any better and who probably
shouldn't be given any power.

[1] they start small and really good; they get popular; someone decides that
something must be done; there are long and bitter threads about moderation;
mods get appointed; and then there's a slew of stickied threads and rules and
closed threads and bizarre restriction.

~~~
zby
How about this: the need to police others often comes from the same root as
the need to abuse them.

------
nikatwork
I run a net radio show with a live chatroom that is frequently trolled. "Troll
hugging" really does work - it's amazing how fast a user can turn from troll
to punter. My theory is they're bored and just want attention.

It doesn't always work. Some People Are Just Assholes.

~~~
aneth
I agree. Treat trolls and snappy shitheads like they didn't do anything
offensive or annoying. Reward their good behavior and don't respond to their
bad. Most will quickly realize that constructiveness instead of belligerence
is getting them the attention and respect they seek. Challenging trollish
behavior will just force them to attempt to justify their behavior through
argument and attitude.

------
falcolas
I'm reminded of a comic that pointed out the best way to get an answer to a
"newbie" question on the internet. Ask the question, and have a friend give
you the wrong answer, publicly. They will then be derided and scorned, while
providing you with the correct answer.

It's sad that this is often what it takes to get an answer out of jaded people
with experience - it's even more sad that the scorn is integral to the
experience.

------
hynek
I don’t want to sound like an old smart ass but I’m regularly grateful how the
tech community evolved; the article mentions it too, it was _really_ bad. The
usenet of the 90’s and early 2000’s was a fierce battle zone and newbie chip
pan.

Nowadays community leaders refuse to tolerate assholes
(<[http://jacobian.org/writing/assholes/>](http://jacobian.org/writing/assholes/>))
– back then they more often than not acted like those. I wouldn’t have thought
back then that we’d come ever so far.

Not that we arrived yet…

------
DanBC
See also Vested Contributors

(<http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/VestedContributor>)

and Dissuade Reputation

(<http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/DissuadeReputation>)

and most of the troublesome characters category on meatball wiki.

------
einhverfr
I see a huge problem with the piece.

There is certainly overlap between thick-skinned and abusive individuals but
the sets are not identical. There are many abusive individuals who are
covering for their own insecurities, and many quiet, confident people who have
thick skins but don't abuse others. Additionally there's a difference between
taking offence to abusive behavior and taking offence where none was intended.

I am of the opinion that it is worth expecting members of the community to be
thick-skinned, professional, courteous, and respectful. If you have the latter
three down well, then telling someone that no offence was meant but that you
stick by your original point, that has a great deal more credibility.

Thick skins are good. But expecting them doesn't have to mean tolerating
abuse.

~~~
obtu
I think part of his point was that expecting everyone to have a thick skin is
a small step away from requiring everyone to have that thick skin, and to not
reacting appropriately to people who direct flames against those supposedly
thick skins. “Thick skin” is often used but poorly defined when talking about
online communities, and I think the end of the article does a good job of
deconstructing the notion by explaining more precisely what is a good standard
for reacting to abuse.

Another point to make is that this is a stronger expectation than simply:
don't be an asshole, and that acceptance criteria that don't match the
emotional reality of most people (for example, if “thick skin” means you're
not allowed to feel bad after being treated harshly) will ghettoise a
community.

~~~
einhverfr
Ok, perhaps I wasn't clear, perhaps as you say because "thick skin" is
relatively ill-defined.

To sum up my point, if you don't tolerate abuse and everyone knows this, then
saying "What so-and-so said wasn't really out of line. Please be more
professional when taking criticism" is credible. When you personal attacks and
trolling, it isn't.

------
rjzzleep
it's a self regulating system. the moment you put too many constraints on it,
it will become like any other system. suppressed until it explodes. the whole
troll, smartass, jerk concept we have is not the only one in the internet, but
it's the most obvious. you may call it abusive, but I say it has created some
of the most beautiful open source code/projects there is.

the moment you start strangulating it, it will lose it's value.

this is from a person who's wished for a remote electroshocker.

------
anon_d
IMHO, it's just the way of things everywhere on the internet. It wont ever
change, and the entire population will eventually develop a thick skin. I
personally have zero tolerance for abusive verbal behavior, but I've become
very comfortable with it in text.

On the other hand, user moderated communities like Hacker News and Reddit seem
to cut back on this a lot. Only funny or informative abusive comments are
shown.

------
itmag
The "troll" label gets thrown around a lot here. I would like to see some
samples of what people consider troll behavior, so I can get a better idea of
what it is.

Labelling someone "troll" is the same as labelling them wrong and that should
not be taken lightly: <http://sivers.org/ss>

------
gaius
Who was he referring to as

 _We are not even close to free software's most wretched hive of scum and
villainy._

? My guess would be the Ruby "community".

~~~
brohee
The really nice Ruby people must hate being confused with the Rails ghetto
hoodlums.

~~~
enko
What rails ghetto hoodlums?

Seriously, every community has a few bad apples, it's totally unfair to judge
the whole by the behaviour of a very few. You'd probably object if you heard
someone judging an entire ethnic group by the actions of a couple of
extremists - how is this any different?

/rails dev frustrated by the seemingly bad image of the community despite
99.99% of it being actually really nice

~~~
brohee
You may be missing a reference or two :
[http://www.zedshaw.com.sharedcopy.com/rants/51489cec9386f7c1...](http://www.zedshaw.com.sharedcopy.com/rants/51489cec9386f7c13f69b3a58cd50b02.html)
and [http://www.sarahmei.com/blog/2009/04/25/why-rails-is-
still-a...](http://www.sarahmei.com/blog/2009/04/25/why-rails-is-still-a-
ghetto/)

~~~
enko
A couple of >3 year old blog posts proves that all rails developers are
assholes? Is that really what you're hanging all your beliefs on? Sorry dude
but that's just stupid. There are hundreds of thousands of rails developers
all across the world and all you can cite is a couple of years old blog posts
- one of them a cache because the author regretted posting it!

I just got back from the Red Dot Ruby conference in Singapore and it was
nothing but wall to wall nice people. This attention seeking nonsense you cite
may as well be light years away. We are all just focussed on sharing
knowledge, growing the community, and developing good software.

It's 2012. Rails is far and away the best choice for developing pretty much
any normal web app. Trying to tar the entire community with some old blog
posts is pretty lame at best. Oh, and for what it's worth, there were quite a
few women at the conference, and high school students too. Thank god you
weren't there to spread this bullshit.

~~~
brohee
Sarcasm is really lost on you. Zed Shaw's blog was a pretty big hit when it
was posted, because he was a very relevant person in the community (he wrote
Mongrel in case you don't place him). The term ghetto stuck to this day,
mostly as a joke.

As for Rail being "far and away the best choice for developing pretty much any
normal web app", that may be true if one define a normal Web app as being a
CRUD application with a REST architecture, that covers lots of ground, but
still far from universal.

------
aneth
I occasionally venture into the IRC rooms for Rails, node.js, or some other
technology when I need a quick answer that can't be found elsewhere.

I'm always shocked at how stereotypically asinine and snarky the responses to
legitimate questions are. Yes it's IRC, yet somehow I expect it not to live up
to its reputation - yet it does every time.

~~~
JonnieCache
The rubyonrails channel is indeed awful, because of the demographic of people
who use rails right now. The ruby channel is much more civil. They are usually
unwilling to help on rails-specific issues though.

~~~
aneth
> "because of the demographic of people who use rails right now"

What do you see as the problem with the demographic?

While I know historically Rails had a heavy conceited, dickhead user base (in
Seattle particularly), the demographic has expanded so much that it doesn't
seem to be the case overall anymore.

~~~
JonnieCache
Thats not what I mean.

I can't really comment on the actual community at large, but in places where
people go to get help, such as the irc channel, there are increasingly a lot
of people looking for easy answers who don't seem willing to work things out
for themselves. More so than in a lot of other languages. I couldn't attribute
this to any specific group of people, but I think it has to do with rails
increasingly becoming a "workhorse" tool amongst shall we say, less hackerish
web devs.

It's basically a sign that rails is being used more for workaday things,
perhaps at the expense of .net or PHP. This is surely a good thing. It isn't
the same as the mythic internecine rivalries in the rails/ruby development
community everyone always talks about, which I've never thought were that
important.

------
unfortunat
i think the worst i've ever seen was people on slashdot saying unkind things
about w. richard stevens after he passed away. apparently he preferred c to
perl. of all people to disrespect, the abusive posters seem to pick the
smartest ones.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
The smartest ones are the ones they are most threatened by.

~~~
phn
Is this really that common? Even yesterday I was talking to some friends about
this, are people really more agressive towards "smarter" people just because
they feel threatened?

I try to be the most open I can and learn the most from people that I feel are
smarter than me. But it seems that it is not the norm, even with "non-tech"
people.

