
Delisted Overnight: A Cautionary Tale for Indie iOS Developers - rooster8
https://russ.app/2019/05/delisted-overnight
======
benmdi
Wow. I literally use this App every single day. I think it was $5 and I have
gotten enormous value from it for 3+ years.

Sad that what is probably a random glitch on Apple's part can just kill a
person's livelihood overnight.

I used to be a full time iOS contractor but have moved away from it in the
last couple of years. Dealing with this kind of junk is one of the main
reasons why. I have lots of similarly frustrating stories from my clients.

~~~
v011d
where have you moved to?

~~~
benmdi
Some general backend and web work, and some blockchain stuff as well.

The latter is the opposite set of tradeoffs. Completely permissionless, but
lots of riff-raff and scammy nonsense going on.

~~~
GuiA
Sorry to take the topic a little off rails, but - I meet so many contractors
who do "blockchain stuff", and I've never asked until now - what kind of
blockchain stuff are people paying you to do?

------
graeme
Edit: I do not expect it can help resolve the issue much, but I went and left
the app a rating as I have used it and find it quite good. I realized I had
neglected to do so until now

————-

I do not understand the people agreeing with Apple that search results are not
guaranteed. App Store search does not nearly exist to serve developers; it
exists to help users. This app was number one for years and has good reviews.
I’ve used it myself and like it.

And then it vanishes. Something went wrong in Apple systems: either they been
making a mistake for years, or a glitch has occurred. This developers support
ticket is basically a bug report and Apple is ignoring it. It is pedantically
correct to point out that search rankings can end at any moment. But this is
far from a good result and I am baffled that some people are siding with Apple
here to justify what is clearly a bug.

To the developer: before pulling the plug I strongly suggest trying a
subscription model. I would probably pay a few dollars a year just to keep the
app, heavy users would be even more willing to pay. I don’t know if your
numbers make that sustainable but there may be a way to do so.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
> To the developer: before pulling the plug I strongly suggest trying a
> subscription model.

You're suggesting that the developer begin asking for a subscription for an
app they already bought with the understanding that it was a one-time fee?

This does not sound to me like a recipe for happy customers, regardless of
whether or not it's reasonable.

(You _might_ have more success releasing a "Happy Scale 2" and pushing all
future updates there. This has the significant advantage of not making users
feel _forced_ to buy something new.)

~~~
graeme
They said they were going to shut it down if search didn’t change.

I think customers would prob prefer that to losing it, so they should at least
try rather than simply throwing it away.

Happy scale 2 could work. Or maybe some new feature, not sure how best to work
it. They’d be the one to know what their audience might support, but I think
they should at least try.

Though hopefully search gets fixed and it won’t be necessary.

------
_bxg1
This is a good argument for having multiple app stores. I don't totally blame
Apple's devs here: it's completely imaginable that small, innocent changes in
what's no doubt an enormous codebase could have totally unpredictable effects
on individual search rankings.

The problem is that there's only a single point of articulation. If half a
dozen app stores all got search results "mostly right", then little variations
like this wouldn't sink a business. This is far from the only example of the
single-platform effect. Facebook gets (or is forced) to be the arbiter of free
speech. YouTube gets (or is forced) to be the arbiter of copyright claims. In
the world of PC games, for contrast, Steam's algorithms can't _totally_ sink a
game because they don't have a _total_ monopoly. There's itch.io, GOG, and now
Epic. You can go to other platforms (or all of them!).

I love Apple's app store. I love how hard they fight to protect their
customers from exploitative and dangerous software. I feel safe downloading
apps there in a way that I didn't on Google Play. But monopolies are bad, even
in the rare cases where they don't degrade the quality of the product.

~~~
benmdi
Yeah, I agree. I hope the legal system forces Apple to allow opt-in third
party app stores. Would go a long way towards alleviating these kinds of
situations.

~~~
root_axis
Why should the legal system force Apple to do this? I get that it would
prevent this type of scenario, but why should the the law care about this
scenario at all?

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Why should MS be forced to promote alternatives to IE?

~~~
root_axis
MS had a monopoly on x86 operating systems, Apple does not have a monopoly on
ARM operating systems.

~~~
CamperBob2
How is this anything but a category error? Just as there are phones other than
Apple's, there were computers other than Wintel boxes.

I see nothing wrong with society demanding more accountability from those with
more economic importance.

~~~
root_axis
> _Just as there are phones other than Apple 's, there were computers other
> than Wintel boxes_

Well the specific numbers matter, don't they? Microsoft had a massive
overwhelming monopoly whereas iOS has healthy competition in Android.

> _I see nothing wrong with society demanding more accountability from those
> with more economic importance._

I don't disagree, but why should we specifically target Apple's app store
rather than say, for example, passing a law that prohibits selling locked down
hardware that prevents the user from installing whatever software they choose?

------
danial
If you're reading this, I'm so sorry this happened to you, Russ.

The problem is worse than being de-ranked for your keywords. The search is
downright broken. Searching for 'predictive weight loss tracker', 'predictive
weight tracker', anything with 'tracker' yields no results on my phone.
Removing 'tracker' and only searching for 'Predictive Weight' or 'Predictive
Weight Loss' gives me only one result: Happy Scale.

It almost seems like they're filtering your app on the 'tracker' keyword.
That's not fair!

~~~
rooster8
Thanks for your support! Yes, it specifically seems like anything with the
word "tracker" in it got axed. Maybe it's just a glitch?

~~~
gauravjain13
I just bought your app – looks fantastic! I'm sorry this is how I discovered
your app, and hope the issue gets resolved.

~~~
rooster8
Thank you!

------
xwdv
Take it from someone who’s worked with client apps making ten times as many
downloads at similar price points: if you want to be successful in the app
business you need to look beyond optimizing App Store search terms. You need
to be marketing and promoting your application across multiple channels to a
wider audience. It does not sound like this developer was doing that, so while
it is sad he has had revenue slashed in half overnight he could have avoided
this kind of big hit if he was reinvesting some portion of revenue back into
promoting his application.

~~~
benmdi
This is just another way of saying "Apple doesn't give a f*ck about indie
developers." Might be true, but it's still shitty.

~~~
xwdv
Apple is not a marketing service.

~~~
walterbell
Other than Facebook and Google, what are the preferred marketing services for
iOS indie developers in 2019? Is it mostly domain/niche specific, or are there
horizontal promotion services for apps?

If Apple's 30% fee charged to developers does not include any marketing
services, what additional percentage should be budgeted for the companies that
_are_ promoting apps? 10%? 20%?

------
jwr
This is why I think every app should be sold in a subscription model. The
current users of this app are very happy with it, and yet they will suffer
when the developer can't make enough new sales. It's like a Ponzi scheme:
everything falls down if you can't enroll enough new users. That's not
sustainable.

~~~
jsty
For apps you install on your own machine, I think the JetBrains perpetual
license model is probably my favourite so far. After a certain period you can
stop paying the subscription and keep using the old version. But if you want
to keep up to date with features and bug fixes, you keep paying the
subscription.

It just seems to align incentives on both sides quite well.

~~~
function_seven
I really like their model as well. I think the really novel part of it is
that, when you decide to stop paying the subscription, you keep the perpetual
license for whatever was current _a year ago_. So if you just updated to the
latest and greatest, and you love it, then you need to pay one more year
subscription in order to "buy" it out right.

I think that's clever

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Personally, if I thought I might have to downgrade a piece of software a year
from now, I just wouldn't update in the first place, to avoid the pain of
downgrading.

Even understanding that the goal is to incentivize continued payment, making
users downgrade at the end feels excessively punitive IMO. Just let them keep
the last version.

------
microtherion
As an Apple employee (not in any role related to the app store), and satisfied
user of Happy Scale, I'm sorry to hear about the ranking loss.

On the other hand, it's in the nature of machine learning systems such as
search that sometimes, a simple update of the underlying model can lead to
drastic changes in search results (say, for argument's sake, that there has
been a recent influx of apps using the word "tracker", which could lead to the
word being considered essentially noise).

This can happen without any "bug" in the underlying system, even less a
sinister agenda to undermine any developer or help another one. So while these
possibilities can and should be investigated, ultimately search results will
sometimes change.

~~~
rooster8
Great point.

Though I do wonder why many of the other apps that came up as a search result
for "weight loss tracker" continue to do so, and mine was singled out. It's an
important search term, because predictive text will suggest "weight loss
tracker" when you start typing "weight." If tracker were being penalized as
noise, then adjusting the predictive text would be a great way to handle the
transition.

------
stcredzero
This is one of the primary ways that the culture's general knowledge is
lagging behind technology. Our culture still thinks in terms of "notoriety,"
as was known in Julius Caesar's day. Andy Warhol was a bit more advanced.
("Everyone will have their 15 minutes of fame.") In 2019, the mental model
should change to encompass _algorithmic and viral discovery._

In 2019, it's not just reputation which matters. It's not just the ability to
merely publish which matters. It's the ability to leverage algorithmic and
viral discovery which truly matters. In 2019, the people who control
algorithmic and viral discovery are the ones who hold the reins of cultural
and commercial power behind the scenes.

In 2019, having the ability to publish, but not having a solid strategy over
discovery, is like in 1960, concentrating on the newspapers and neglecting
television. In 2019, ceding control over algorithmic and viral discovery to a
few megacorporations is handing over the keys to the most potent commercial
and cultural power.

~~~
benmdi
Interesting thoughts. Not sure what the developer could have done differently,
here? The App is published on Apple's Platform, and it's impossible for him to
distribute outside the store. He has been working on it for years, been a good
citizen of the App Store, and created something people seem to genuinely love
and value.

Honestly, this is one of the reasons I hope the legal system does eventually
require Apple to enable opt-in, third party app stores. We need to have SOME
release valve from being at the mercy of Apple's whims.

~~~
stcredzero
_Interesting thoughts. Not sure what the developer could have done
differently, here?_

He couldn't have done anything different. That's my point! If we cede the
power of algorithmic and viral discovery to large corporations, we're ceding
the powerhouse of 21st century culture to them.

------
floatingatoll
Changing the tagline to "Predictive Weight Tracker" might have an interesting
(positive) effect, for a variety of reasons. It seems likely Apple has
downrated the phrase "weight loss" altogether.

It's odd that the app marketing doesn't explain how it's useful once you reach
a target, and doesn't offer any hint that it can be used to set weight gain
targets for people who are looking to reach a new weight class. If I reach my
weight loss target, does the app become useless?

~~~
benmdi
>It seems likely Apple has downrated the phrase "weight loss" altogether.

What makes you say that?

~~~
floatingatoll
Apple takes a more long-term view of health self-care than “weight loss” alone
can encompass, and so it wouldn’t surprise me if a phrase that is highly prone
to fraud and snake oil _outside_ the App Store was eventually punished.

“Reach and maintain your target weight” with at least one screenshot showing
an increase phase and a maintenance phase rather than decrease would be vastly
more inclusive and health-forward than today’s “weight loss only” content.

Is this app useful for recovering anorexics, or for maintaining a target
weight after reaching it? I imagine it is, but I couldn’t tell from its App
Store page.

~~~
asveikau
> Apple takes a more long-term view of health self-care than “weight loss”
> alone can encompass,

I suspect this is an unintentionally humorous phrasing. How many brands do we
interact with without asking their owners for their "view of health self-
care"? Fitness tracker features notwithstanding, I would most certainly not
expect it from a phone vendor. I would expect them to let their customers
decide how they will or won't care for themselves.

Now, your point that the term might have a lot of snake oil products using
it... That is somewhat plausible.

~~~
floatingatoll
Nope, not sarcastic. Apple specifically notes that they designed their Watch
product to have value to people _after_ they reach their goals, not just
_during_ the trek towards the goal. I consider their statements to indicate
that they apply the same considerations to "weight targets" – gain/loss,
followed by maintenance – as they would to any other health target, such as
those they measure with Activity rings today.

[https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/24/16926350/apple-watch-
seri...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/24/16926350/apple-watch-
series-2-fitness-tracker-healthy-notification-behavior)

“The idea that small behavior changes can actually add up to something great
is a real core philosophy of the activity app,” says Blahnik [director of
fitness and health at Apple]. “Partially because what we find is that’s going
to correct everybody. If you’re a beginner, and you’re not very fit, small
changes are what you need to do. But it turns out that if you’re really fit,
small changes are all you have left. So, it ends up being something that
actually works for everybody.”

~~~
asveikau
I did not mean you're being sarcastic. I mean you bought into the Apple PR a
bit heavily and it's humorous.

I mean this in the most respectful way possible.

~~~
floatingatoll
SEO is all about reading the tea leaves. I'm expressing my personal belief
and, as part of reading the SEO tea leaves, noting that there's indirect
evidence that Apple _agrees_ with my personal belief. While I appreciate your
effort to somehow avoid disrespecting me while trivializing my beliefs, you
have not succeeded. We'll need to agree to disagree as I don't think I can
continue this discussion, sorry.

~~~
asveikau
OK. I hope you learn to take it all a little less seriously in the future.
Good luck.

------
mrkstu
I think he already has his answer- Apple doesn't guarantee search placement-
though it is odd that he'd fall all the way off altogether.

If you're relying on Apple (or Google) to feature you in their search results,
you're already at their whim with no recourse.

~~~
benmdi
That's a BS answer, and if it's the one Apple wants to give, then they should
not be surprised when they 1) are seen by devs as a unattractive platform to
build a business on 2) Get treated like a monopolist in courts.

~~~
groovybits
I'm not sure I understand this reasoning.

Why should Apple or Google be responsible for promoting your app? If I walk
into a supermarket and I don't see the item I wanted on their front feature
displays (meaning I need to walk down the isle to find it), does that mean the
supermarket is monopolistic? Does that mean the item vendor should stop
selling their product in that supermarket?

~~~
britch
I like this analogy, but there are some pretty big differences between a
supermarket and the app store.

The "aisle" on the app store goes on for miles. Sure the product may be there,
but if it's a 5-10 minute walk down the aisle to get to it, I don't think may
people would look that far. The item is technically there, but it's not
exactly accessible.

In this example there's also only one supermarket, the Apple app store. With
grocery stores your product may not be in an advantageous place at Store A,
but it could be right at eye level in Store B, C, or D. With the Apple store,
if you're not featured there, you're not featured anywhere.

I agree the developer should not be surprised by this. I don't think Apple is
acting badly. These are just consequences of having many apps and only one app
store.

~~~
groovybits
> In this example there's also only one supermarket, the Apple app store.

My argument was simply about who is responsible for promoting the app. But
your point is correct.

My response to this: Would having multiple app stores available on iOS really
solve the issue that OP is experiencing?

If iOS suddenly allowed a user to download apps from multiple different
stores, would the number of app downloads for OP increase? How will I know
which app store to find OP's app in? From a pure promotional aspect, I would
have to know to look for OP's app, which does not sound like it would help OP
in this case.

~~~
thinkharder
I think both the multiple app store and 'apple isn't responsible for promoting
your app' are both red herrings. The issue is that the search function in the
app store lies to end users. To use the example in the article, if I go to the
app store and search for "weigh loss tracker" I get 5 result, none of which is
Happy Scale. The default sort is 'relevance', whatever that means, but i can
change that to Most Popular. Still no Happy Scale. If I search for "Happy
Scale" i get no result. From my perspective as an end user of the App Store,
I'm being lied to. The search is not returning honest results that correspond
to what I search for. This is not what the end user expects of search, they
expect true organic results based on what they searched for, or at worst, a
complete list with the apps Apple wants to promote at the top. In this case
they are getting a curated subset of those results and not being told this is
the case. Also, consider that the app store is unusable without search. There
are million of apps, so is no way to browse it to find what you're looking
for. If search doesn't return it, it might as well not exist in the app store.

Unless this is thoroughly explained somewhere in the dev documentation, then
developers are being lied to also.

People threw a fit when Google changed the search result UI so that it became
impossible to tell paid results from organic results. This is similar but
worse. Google just put the paid results above the organic ones. Apple
completely removes the organic results at their whim.

The author should have been promoting the app thru multiple channels and not
relying on the app store search exclusively, this was an obvious mistake. This
doesn't justify what Apple did though. It's their app store, and they can do
what they want, but this, although legal, is pretty sleazy IMO.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
Is this bad faith or unbelievable incompetence on Apple's part?

It's tempting to assume the former, but I seriously suspect the latter.

As a user I've seen this happen repeatedly. Search can't find an app even if I
enter the name.

This happens for mundane but specialised apps - train timetables, toll payment
apps, and other apps for which there is literally no alternative, never mind
one that might somehow sell better and make more money.

I don't see how this possibly benefits Apple. Possibly there's some not very
effective "optimisation" happening, but it's also possible search is just
plain broken.

~~~
britch
I'd argue this is a consequence of a lack of competition. Since there's no
where else for you to go, what incentive do they have to fix search? Devs may
complain a bit, but Apple still controls enough of the phone market that
people are going to continue to make apps out of necessity and Apple will
still get paid. As long as people can still find the "big" apps (uber,
netflix, tinder, spotify, etc.), there won't be a meaningful outcry from
users. It's not like someone is going to switch OS's over this.

------
bfoks
Possible explanation why it happened:
[https://twitter.com/ilyakuh/status/1134008287068921856](https://twitter.com/ilyakuh/status/1134008287068921856)

------
segmondy
Why should he hold Monopoly on search placement for the phrase "weight
tracker"? The other side of this story is that another developer is now happy
to be able to feed their family.

~~~
jdboyd
He shouldn't get a monopoly, but going from 1 to not in the top 400 overnight
is suspicious. Not that Apple ever promised that wouldn't happen. But it is
probably worth complaining about publicly in case that helps shake something
loose.

~~~
AJ007
If an Apple employee connected to a competing app was able to remove the
search result then that is suspicious.

This doesn’t sound particularly different than people who thought they were
entitled to whatever search result position on Google due to their SEO effort
and built their entire business around non-retaining users. I recall stories
of companies getting sales to their e-commerce site, for free, from Google
listings, and taking on long term liabilities and leases for warehouses or
fulfillment locations only to end up bankrupt.

Who knows what is really going on here, but you certainly aren’t entitled to
any search result listing save for your actual app or company name, presuming
it isn’t generic.

~~~
munk-a
The thing, though, is that Apple has chosen to fully control the market place
and search engine. They are fully culpable for any disruptions because they
refuse to let their system be audited externally.

There's an argument to be made that if the market is free or allows competing
indexes then Apple is _less_ on the hook, but Apple has a stranglehold on how
the AppStore works, they've made their bed in this case.

------
TomSwift73
I don't know if this is the issue Russ is having or not, but I thought I would
post here (I've also emailed Russ). I experienced similar drop-off this week
with an app of mine which has been in the App Store for several years. I
wouldn't have noticed except I checked after reading Russ's post.

My app has space-separated keywords in the Appstore Connect portal. They've
always been space-separated and I can't remember the last time I updated them.
But the App Store guidance says to comma-separate keywords. Indeed, the newer
apps I work on for my day job have comma-separated keywords. Could Apple have
changed how keywords are parsed, and broken older keyword sets that used to be
valid but now are not?

I'll be updating my app tonight and the keywords along with it; time will tell
if this is the culprit.

------
Isamu
Anybody have experience with buying app store ads? I wonder if they could
provide a crucial bump in a situation like this where presumably the reviews
are good but you drop because of things beyond your control.

------
kevin_b_er
The developer learned the hard lesson of relying on a walled garden for
livelihood. A livelihood that can be taken away without reason or recourse.
Looks like they were all in on Apple, too.

------
anjc
Is the functionality of your app already included in the Health app? If not,
take a guess what feature will be soon included in the Health app. Apple have
a history of killing competitors in the App Store, most recently with screen
time apps:

[https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/27/tech/apple-screen-time-
ap...](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/27/tech/apple-screen-time-app-store-
banned-report/index.html)

------
jedberg
Man, if only there were an alternate app store or another way for people to
get his app on their phone...

------
waynecochran
Just installed the app. I wish I found this one earlier.

~~~
rooster8
I hope you enjoy it!

------
mproud
Silver lining: HN readers now know about your app.

------
msmollin
This is truly unfortunate and I hope Apple resolves this. Happy Scale is a
fantastic product and it would be a shame to see the developer have to give
this up full time.

------
dangwu
One of the things I did with Octal [1] a while back was experiment with
different title/subtitle combinations, noting where my app landed in the
search results for 'hacker news' for each variation. Then I picked the one
that ranked the highest.

Example variations were:

Octal

Hacker News Client

-

Octal for Hacker News

Tech, programming, and startup news

-

Octal - Hacker News

Social tech news from Hacker News

[1]
[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id1308885491?mt=8](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id1308885491?mt=8)

------
binarysolo
Seems like Apple changed the search/discovery algo and he got hit with it.

Don't think anything particularly devious has happened, but seems like the App
Store search team really hit some folks who were trying to organically build a
good app/biz over time. For what it's worth there's some pretty good feedback
here for AppStore search + customers who voted up the app individually, so
hope that helps.

------
CurlyDay
Happy scale created a way for me to track what i was doing every morning
already - jumping on the scale while looking at the mirror....

~~~
rooster8
Thanks for sharing that! Really nice to hear from a satisfied user amidst all
of this.

------
prohoney
I hope that Apple will soon give an explanation. I suspect your app is not the
only one to take a hit.

~~~
laurentrivard
Probably not, but it doesn't seem like OP has seen chatter online about it. If
it truly was a bug, a lot more people would be pissed

------
_Codemonkeyism
Had hoped there was a happy ending, hope for the dev and his family that there
will be one.

~~~
rooster8
Thank you! I will surely post an update if anything changes. I'm sure that no
matter how this turns out, my family and I will all be fine.

~~~
_Codemonkeyism
Good to hear!

------
laurentrivard
That's terrible and really puts indie developers at risk. One small change on
Apple's side and your business might not survive. Hope Apple fixes it quickly!

~~~
stcredzero
What's clearly broken here is the sudden changeover. If things were working
correctly, placement would change gradually, based on a shift in the
marketplace. From the information in the post, it looks like Apple just
decided, "Okay, your turn is over! Next!"

------
edisonjoao
wow.

------
stingraycharles
Reddit did the same. I was a paid user of Alien Blue (no ads), then Reddit
acquired it, killed it and now we have the new Reddit ad-rich app.

~~~
volkk
yeah, check out narwhal. its pretty good. not great, but better than reddit-
facebook

~~~
jachee
As another option, Apollo[0] is fantastic, and also independently produced.

0: [https://apolloapp.io](https://apolloapp.io)

