
As REI thrives, does it have members or merely shoppers? - jseliger
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/retail/as-rei-thrives-does-it-have-members-or-merely-shoppers/
======
danans
I had completely forgotten (or never knew) that voting was a part of REI
membership, and I've been a member nearly 15 years.

Regarding their commercial success though, I think is attributable to several
factors, including:

\- They have tended to their brand really well. Their brand means the same
thing (and more) to me as it did 20 years ago.

\- As I have grown up, had a family, they have continued to provide things I
want/need: I used to buy a lot of ski and camping gear there when I was
younger, and now, it's one of the first places I look for kids' outer-wear and
sports gear for all seasons. They are now far more than an outdoorman's
outfitter (EDIT: but they haven't gotten so broad as to dilute the original
reason I liked them).

\- They have attached their brand to cultural symbols of the upper middle
class, like ski vacations, environmentalism, etc. Therefore their clientele
are people of reliable means, similar to Costco's customer demographics. In
fact, In the Bay Area, I can think of 3 REI locations that are quite close to
a Costco, FWIW. EDIT: Also, these cultural symbols are things I am very likely
to teach my children - my very young kids already know that when we want gear,
we go to REI.

~~~
mc32
One of the best advantages of buying at their markups is their return policy.

You pay more than at online outlet retailers, for sure, but lets say you
bought a $200 sleeping bag and after a couple of seasons, you decide its not
warm enough, you get to return it and get one more fitting to your needs.

Like the Nordstrom of outdoors goods.

~~~
ghaff
REI, at least officially, now only allows returns for one year.

I'd add that people deciding after a couple of years that they don't really
like what they originally bought is not a reasonable reason to return
something.

~~~
grecy
> _not a reasonable reason to return something._

I personally agree with you, but that's not the point.

If you're willing to pay a little premium over online outlets, and as long as
everyone at REI is still getting paid, why shouldn't customers be allowed to
return things for any reason?

~~~
ghaff
First of all, some of REI's prices are good. Some are not so good. In my
experience, there isn't a consistent premium.

>If you're willing to pay a little premium over online outlets, and as long as
everyone at REI is still getting paid, why shouldn't customers be allowed to
return things for any reason?

Because, someone has to pay for that not reasonable return, whether it's coop
members and/or other customers who end up paying just a bit more.

------
habosa
I personally did not even know that my membership entitled me to vote on
anything, so it's possible I am not the only one.

REI is a great example of how you can invest in long-term customer loyalty
rather than short-term gains and win. I buy pretty much all of my
camping/hiking/outdoor gear at REI because I know that even though I might
save 10% elsewhere the people at REI will support my purchase forever and help
me get the right gear. I know a lot of other people who make the same
decision. It's one of the only shopping verticals where I don't aggressively
price hunt because I am just so happy with the experience at REI.

I think we would see this type of corporate behavior in more industries if
investors had the patience for it. You can massively increase customer LTV and
reduce churn by spending some money to make people happy.

------
jdblair
I've been a member since the 80's. I don't vote b/c I know nothing about the
candidates other than what is written in the voting material. Either I'm being
presented choices that don't really matter for the operation of the co-op, or
I know so little I should abstain from choosing.

I shop at REI because the service when something goes wrong with gear is
tremendous. In the early 90s I was a backpacking guide for the Boy Scouts
(Ranger, Philmont Scout Ranch, 1992) and the sole came off my Vasque hiking
boots. REI fedex'd me a new pair. That's how you win loyal customers.

~~~
tmoullet
A similar story was shared in the Wild book/movie.

IWGTP! '11

------
thorntonbf
I've been a member since '83 or '84\. I've undoubtedly gotten the my original
money's worth out of my membership dozens of times over.

The article raises an interesting point. While I am quite loyal to REI - often
choosing to buy there even though I pay sales tax and might be able to find it
cheaper online, I don't pay that much attention to elections and other co-op
stuff.

The primary benefit I see as a co-op member is their unparalleled customer
service. I've lost count of the number of times one of their associates has
gone out of their way to ensure that whatever issue I was having was taken
care of appropriately.

------
Tiktaalik
It's interesting to compare this to a recent article about MEC, Canada's REI
clone.

[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/mec-
govern...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/mec-governance-
changes-sparks-dissent-among-long-time-loyalists/article26852082/)

Both co-ops seem to have similar issues developing from the change from small
scale co-op to major national retailer.

~~~
ghaff
As outdoorsy-oriented businesses in this general vein expand, there are also a
lot of forces seeking to turn them into more or less general purpose retailers
with the thinnest of outdoor activity veneers. Some seem to navigate this
better than others. LL Bean, in my experience, still has solid customer
service and seems to still have a pretty decent hunting/fishing department
(although their hiking/camping is relatively week). But brands like Eddie
Bauer are just, well, brands at this point. And, fun fact, Abercrombie & Fitch
started out as a high-end outdoors store. REI seems to have threaded a
reasonable path.

~~~
r00fus
Eddie Bauer has been just a "brand" since at least 1994 when Ford released an
"Eddie Bauer" Explorer/Expedition trim level (I saw one in '97).

------
e28eta
I've been a member for years, I don't actually remember receiving ballots to
vote.

However, I don't even know how I'd educate myself to cast an informed vote.
Same thing with a timeshare I just got from my grandfather. I received a name,
a title, and one or two paragraphs about the candidates. It's pretty daunting
to try to extrapolate from that into a guess at who will be the best
candidate.

Same thing with REI. I don't know their business, their challenges, and the
qualifications or competency of the candidates well enough to have a
meaningful say in who should be on the board. Do I?

~~~
gry
The ballots come _with_ your dividend notice, which I'm sure you remember. ;)

[http://www.rei.com/shared/help/membership_join.html?storeId=...](http://www.rei.com/shared/help/membership_join.html?storeId=8000)

------
Cerium
I've been a member a long time, and never voted.

Shopping at REI is different from other retailers. When I shop at REI I don't
check prices online. If I like it I will buy it.

Recently I was shopping for a sleeping bag at REI for my wife. I was ready to
spend a couple hundred and get something fancy. The REI sales representative
talked me down to a square synthetic bag since it would be more comfortable
for her and could be used like a blanket.

Another time my bike pump broke, after using it often for years. I took it in
intending to buy a replacement part. They got me one in a few days and
wouldn't take my money.

------
spchampion2
I've been an REI member for longer than I can remember, but I've never voted
in one of their elections.

Lately though, I've been questioning my loyalty to the brand. Their prices are
substantially higher than some of their online competitors with differences
that are too big to be accounted for by the dividend alone. And while I
appreciate the service when buying something, their new return policy is a big
step backwards. They've built tremendous loyalty around a return something any
time policy that no longer exists.

~~~
moron4hire
Came here to say the same thing. We bought a very expensive tent from them for
very protection and they rescinded it only a few months before the tent got
bent up in a wind storm. They tent itself was nice, but it wasn't really worth
the price. I understood it as a form of insurance.

So yeah, I'm definitely letting my membership lapse this year.

~~~
snowwrestler
If you have a legitimate gripe, take it back. REI store managers (still) have
a broad discretion in the return policy. The new "1 year" policy is largely a
social signal that they won't tolerate obvious abuses anymore. And expensive
tent getting wrecked by wind is not an obvious abuse, unless you strapped it
to a car on the highway maybe.

And many high end outdoor manufacturers provide lifetime warranties
themselves. If your expensive tent is a North Face or Mountain Hardware and
was really damaged by wind, it will probably get replaced no matter where you
bought it.

------
Outdoorsman
I joined in 1985, when membership was free for the asking...they offered an
REI Visa way back then, and I took them up on it...a couple of years ago it
transitioned to a Mastercard...so, I've been carrying an REI endorsed and
embossed credit card for 30 years, as well...

I buy almost all of my outdoor gear from them and have absolutely no
complaints...although I'm actually more of a "customer", as the article points
out, I feel the vast majority of my interactions with their staff leave me
feeling like a "member"...the service is that great...

I love the co-op model and always look forward to my yearly dividend...one
thing I really appreciate is that the company structure effectively
discourages a buy-out, which the article mentions...

In the early days ballots were sent out and answered by mail around dividend
time, if memory serves me...haven't voted since then, but follow co-op news in
a few places...

Can't recommend them highly enough...

------
criddell
There was an interesting AMA on Reddit last year when the CEO came on to
announce they were closing all their stores for Black Friday. The top voted
question was from a former employee asking why they push membership sales so
heavily. The CEO didn't answer that question until it became clear he had to
and then came back on and was shocked! that membership sales was being used as
a key metric.

[http://www.geekwire.com/2015/reddit-ama-with-rei-ceo-
spirals...](http://www.geekwire.com/2015/reddit-ama-with-rei-ceo-spirals-out-
of-control-with-questions-over-membership-tactics/)

~~~
sjg007
Same model as Costco or Amazon prime.

~~~
criddell
Not really. REI is a consumer co-op.

~~~
sjg007
Membership sales are the profit centers

------
fencepost
I've also been a member for years, though certainly not back to the 6-digit
member number era. I do get the voting stuff in the mail, though I think I've
only voted once - as noted elsewhere, there's not much information really
available about the candidates, and there generally aren't many more
candidates than there are positions. I'm familiar with that problem from my
HOA (which I was on the board of for years) - 7 positions, 4 open for
election, 3 candidates.

As far as the question of engagement, seems to me that (if they're not
already) perhaps their local stores should be sure to get involved with other
organizers of outdoor activities. How many outdoor groups organize through
Meetup.com? And how many of those is REI involved with/sponsoring/providing
meeting space for? Member engagement is going to have to come from the local
level.

------
Animats
Members can no longer vote on anything meaningful. From the article:
*"Likewise, in the 1998 election members voted on the first board pay raise in
15 years. But since 2002, the board sets its own compensation, a policy REI
says is “consistent with companies of similar size and scope.”"

State Farm Mutual Insurance Company, which is owned by its policyholders, no
longer lets its members vote on anything. There was a time when policyholders
got an annual ballot, but it only had one choice for directors plus a write-in
blank.

------
hackuser
I don't know about REI in particular, but in my experience when many companies
tell customers that they're "members", they don't mean it. They seem to want
to create engagement ('you're part of something, part of our growing, exciting
family / movement') and want their customers/members to sacrifice money or
time, even volunteer, and to put up with bad service.

But when it comes to the benefits of membership - sharing in the profits as
well as the sacrifices, or having some influence and communication - you're a
customer, or at best a customer with a free branded t-shirt.

~~~
dllthomas
REI in particular is a member owned consumer cooperative.

~~~
bcherry
I've always been confused about this. REI has 12 million members, and annual
revenue of $2.2B. If someone wanted to buy REI's business, who would they buy
it from? A retailer like Target has $70B annual revenue and a market cap of
$40B. So that would suggest that REI could be worth something like $1B. Would
each of the 12M members get a check for $83?

~~~
__derek__
From the article: "Another advantage of being a co-op: Since REI is
technically owned by millions of members who’d get little cash from a
takeover, it’d be very cumbersome for a rival to buy it out."

------
sliken
I was a big fan of REI. Used to buy mtb boots regularly, gradually climbing
the price scale over time. Till I got to the top, full leather $300 on sale or
so. I never price compared.

Then recently I had a fairly new pair, worn daily for months, but the tread
was still near new. Minimal signs of wear, still clean. Keep in mind these are
full leather hiking boots.

A major seam burst, when I mentioned it REI said, oh, you don't squat in them
do you? I said not regularly. Then they denied the return and said buy another
pair.

Pretty disappointing, I certainly won't be buying there again unless they have
the best price.

------
rconti
I've been a member since last year. But I grew up in the Northwest, and
shopped there many times with my family in the 80s and 90s (they had a
membership, of course).

More recently, I've used my girlfriend-now-wife's membership, and only signed
up for my own last year. I saw no urgency or reason to get my own, and I have
never heard of voting on anything at REI, from my own membership or from my
family's.

It's odd how pushy they are about employees selling memberships (I had a
friend who worked there for a few years), when they clearly 'cost' the co-op
more than they bring in over the long run.

------
davidw
I've been a member for a while, but mostly view that as a discount and not
much more.

What I really wish we had in the US was Decathlon, which has cheap outdoor
stuff that is "good enough". I wouldn't buy there for something I did a lot
(cycling!), but for casual outdoor stuff (say, snowshoeing) I don't do much,
their gear is often a really good deal, and not so cheap that it's going to
fall apart on me or be unpleasant to use.

------
fred_is_fred
I always felt I was a member there until they changed the return policy. I
always felt I could buy something, even paying more, knowing that I could
return it if there was an issue. Not anymore. Now I go there after checking
other stores first, it's a last resort for me now, not a first.

------
takk309
As far as I am concerned, REI is just another non-local retailer. The biggest
issue I have with them is that money spent at REI does not stay in the
community. Another minor issue that I have is the lack of competent staff. At
our local climbing shop I would be able to talk with staff that I would also
see when out in hiking/climbing. The staff at REI are just buffoons that could
fill out a job application.

~~~
rconti
As a native Seattleite, REI _was_ a local retailer, so I can't comment there.
And I don't know what their outreach efforts are like in the communities where
they base their stores.

That said, IMO your experience with the staff's education level is the
exception rather than the rule. Certainly for specialty equipment you might be
better off at a climbing shop where all of the employees know the gear, rather
than making sure you get "the climbing guy" at your particular REI store. But
not everyone can be an expert in everything, and they make efforts to train
their employees on the gear they sell to a greater extent than most other non-
specialty stores.

~~~
takk309
I will admit that I have experience with only one REI location. I live in a
college town were labor is cheap and plentiful. Plus lots of young egos that
will talk up all their "experience" to anyone that is willing to listen.

