
TikTok to be banned from US app stores from Sunday - jsty
https://www.ft.com/content/c460ce4c-c691-4df5-af49-47a395429fe8
======
kodablah
This is disappointing yet expected from the executive.

What's more disappointing is watching the thunderous applause from
technologists here and elsewhere as software is outlawed which is not
otherwise illegal and is not being litigated as illegal. We should not cheer
on the restriction of any software on nationalistic terms. Content is one
thing, physical equipment another, but algorithms should be borderless. Most
in the community disagree with encryption export restrictions, why can't they
similarly disagree with software import restrictions? 2A groups recognize
slippery slope precedents, why can't technologists?

If the content/data is being harvested and/or managed illegally, then make
that illegal and/or prosecute under that pretense (even if the evidence is
subject to national security non-disclosure). Otherwise, it's obvious this is
political posturing at the cost of digital freedom. It should be as widely
condemned as government surveillance has been.

~~~
sumedh
So what should you do when the China does not play by the same rules and bans
US Apps?

~~~
kodablah
Accept that one of the many costs (or benefits?) of liberty is non-
reciprocation.

~~~
dismantlethesun
I don't really see this as a liberty issue, but rather one of strict economic
advantage.

China currently has that---it ignores IP laws, when it suits them, but
enforces them when it suits them. It forces ownership requirement rules on
foreign companies within China, but encourages Chinese-backed take over of
foreign companies outside of China.

It bans foreign products within its country, to protect homegrown companies
(or steals the IP, _then_ bans the competition if it can't buy out the
devalued company).

In the case of trade between two multi-trillion dollar economies (US & China),
if one side _never_ retaliates over bad faith, and _always_ is more permissive
than the other then that side is bound to lose out.

The way China is behaving, and has behaved for the past 30+ years, is unfair
and detrimental to US companies and trading partners. It may sting in the
short term to be denied Chinese financial support, and Chinese products but in
the long term this is the only way to either force China apply parity and
fairness in its own rulings, or stimulate a local economy that isn't wholly
dependent and subordinate to Chinese interests.

~~~
pwinnski
On Monday, will you be able to download TikTok in the USA? If not, how is that
not an issue of liberty?

You may be willing to give up liberty in exchange for some leveling of
economic advantage, but you cannot also say that you are not, in fact, giving
up that measure of liberty.

I don't actually use TikTok, btw.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
If we recognize the government's ability to enact boycotts and sanctions, we
must recognize its ability to ban foreign companies with connections to
adversaries. If we reject the former, we have to make an argument that
incorporates its centuries of precedent. (In the United States. Millenia, more
generally.)

------
throwaway4good
"The US commerce department, which will issue the orders, stopped short of
forcing Apple and Google to remove the Chinese versions of TikTok and WeChat
from their app stores in China."

The rest of the world really needs to free itself from American monopoly big
tech.

It is simply unacceptable that I, a European in a European country, can have
arbitrary apps on my phone blocked and removed by the whims of the American
president.

~~~
ericmay
> It is simply unacceptable that I, a European in a European country, can have
> arbitrary apps on my phone blocked and removed by the whims of the American
> president.

Well, I think in Europe you could probably have regulators say that these apps
have to be available in order for the companies to operate in the EU or in
specific countries. Not that I think that's a good idea, and the EU's approach
to try and placate both China and the US has been a failure in my view (both
are just taking advantage of fragmented EU member state interests).

But let's take a broad perspective here. Countries all throughout the world
can take actions that have consequences in other countries. The EU implements
a tax on US tech companies or regulations (which I do largely agree with, but
that's besides the point) and that affects me in the US. With a globalized
world, it should be obvious that when the big movers make moves, things will
reverberate around the world.

Here's another example, I am (if you take a look at my post history you can
confirm this! :) ) a HUGE fan of the Apple App Store model. If the EU forces
Apple to allow multiple app stores, I imagine Apple will do that in the US
too. It is simply unacceptable that I, as an American in America, can have
arbitrary rules and regulations imposed on me by the whims of the EU
bureaucracy.

~~~
srtjstjsj
There is a huge difference between mandatory and voluntary.

Blaming a foreign country for something Apple might do voluntarily (but most
probably would not because they have to reason to harms their own interest) is
absurd.

------
helen___keller
Not a big fan of this. It was weird having a Wechat call alongside my wife
talking to her grandmother in china basically under the assumption that this
may be the last time we talk to her ever because wechat is going to be
blocked.

Later we learned that it was only going to be removed from app stores, which
is easy enough for me to work around. But I really don't appreciate this move
by the government.

Not to understate all the awful things that the CCP has done and is continuing
to do, but I'd rather not see the USA become the authoritarian government that
it's trying to combat.

How about ordering app stores to put a warning label that the app may be
leaking data to hostile foreign governments, rather than taking away MY choice
to use the app?

~~~
CGamesPlay
I don't understand. There aren't any other ways for you to make a call to
China? Does China block Skype, WhatsApp? Genuine questions.

~~~
helen___keller
From my understanding they are both blocked (or atleast not available on
chinese app stores). I believe imessage & facetime would work, except my
relatives don't have iPhones.

Realistically, if it came down to it my plan was to buy a VPN to china, and if
that wasn't good enough to unlock wechat, to send relatives an iPhone. A
simple app store block is a lot easier to get around, luckily.

~~~
derwiki
OT: is there a trick to getting a VPN that works reliably? I’ve tried a
different one each time I’ve visited and none have worked well enough for
basic web browsing

~~~
helen___keller
Are you talking about a VPN into china or a VPN out to the western internet?

For the latter, I don't know if this still works but last time I visited China
my Google Fi plan (which has a built in VPN
[https://support.google.com/fi/answer/9040000?hl=en](https://support.google.com/fi/answer/9040000?hl=en)
) actually worked with no further changes, so I was able to pretend I was on
western internet over 4G the entire time I was in China. This was in early
2019.

Which is lucky for me because the school VPN I was initially relying on
stopped working halfway through the trip.

------
threatofrain
MOST concerning is the fact that WeChat will be banned. To many Asian
demographics, that's a mainstream chat application for keeping in touch with
family.

~~~
tomasreimers
No family in China, but some friends there. Do you know of any good
replacements for contacting friends & family there?

The google suite is banned, FB is off the table, WhatsApp works sometimes (I
imagine strained relationships between FB / China), Skype is alright, although
pretty laggy.

The ones I've found reliable are: \- Zoom \- Facetime (I imagine this benefits
from Apple's relationship wit the Chinese govt) \- WeChat (soon deprecated)

~~~
lisnake
Telegram maybe? Not sure if it works in China though.

~~~
zkid18
Also blocked in China

------
srtjstjsj
Better source:

[https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-
releases/2020/09/commerc...](https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-
releases/2020/09/commerce-department-prohibits-wechat-and-tiktok-transactions-
protect)

> As of September 20, 2020, for WeChat and as of November 12, 2020, for
> TikTok, the following transactions are prohibited:

Any provision of internet hosting services enabling the functioning or
optimization of the mobile application in the U.S.; Any provision of content
delivery network services enabling the functioning or optimization of the
mobile application in the U.S.; Any provision directly contracted or arranged
internet transit or peering services enabling the function or optimization of
the mobile application within the U.S.; Any utilization of the mobile
application’s constituent code, functions, or services in the functioning of
software or services developed and/or accessible within the U.S.

------
tpmx
Details: [https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-
releases/2020/09/commerc...](https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-
releases/2020/09/commerce-department-prohibits-wechat-and-tiktok-transactions-
protect)

Interestingly the list of prohibited transactions includes "internet
transit/peering enabling the functioning of Tiktok" in the U.S, among other
things.

~~~
mhandley
The full wording is "Any provision directly contracted or arranged internet
transit or peering services enabling the function or optimization of the
mobile application within the U.S.;"

I've written my own BGP implementation and even I'm not quite sure what they
mean by this. My best guess is this means ISPs operating in the US can't
directly peer with a network that enables the functioning of TikTok, but
probably doesn't go as far as requiring them to block any IP address ranges
received indirectly via other networks.

This applies both to TikTok and WeChat.

------
newyorker2
[https://archive.is/l6ex8](https://archive.is/l6ex8)

------
Animats
Actual executive order re WeChat: [1]

This is under the Emergency Economic Powers Act, which derives its authority
from the interstate commerce clause in the U.S. Constitution. There's a free
speech issue here - can one distribute free software despite the wishes of the
administration? ACLU says the administration went too far.[2] Expect a lawsuit
shortly.

[1]
[https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/08/11/2020-17...](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/08/11/2020-17700/addressing-
the-threat-posed-by-wechat-and-taking-additional-steps-to-address-the-
national-emergency)

[2] [https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/dont-ban-tiktok-and-
we...](https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/dont-ban-tiktok-and-wechat/)

------
pmontra
WeChat too. People will be able to sideload those apps on Android to keep
current with new features and invisible changes to the server protocol. That's
going to be a source of vulnerabilities though.

~~~
sto_hristo
Some people will do that. But the vast majority can barely handle email
clients, so they will not bother to figure out how to install manually. They
will simply move to the next garbage out there.

~~~
sudosysgen
WeChat has 1.2 billion users, and downloading an APK plus installing it is a 4
step process that takes around 15 seconds.

------
jjav
All TikTok politics aside, this is another case why walled-garden app stores
are a terrible idea. Content controlled by a single corporation means it is
this easy to shut down software.

Compare this scenario vs. trying to prevent people from using, say, irssi (or
any IRC client) where the source code is available from a thousand places and
one can simply compile it locally.

------
millisecond
The Oracle deal didn’t cut it? Did I miss something?

~~~
ausbah
it is in the works, the title is slightly misleading as it is just setting a
deadline for when the takeover negotiations must be finished by - Nov 12

~~~
srtjstjsj
And if the incumbent loses the election presumably the order will be ignored
and rescinded.

------
nl
So what exactly did Oracle buy/not buy/whatever they did or didn't do with
TikTok?

And why did it not do whatever it was supposed to do?

~~~
srtjstjsj
This order is only if the oracle deal collapses.

~~~
singularity2001
crucial information burried here

------
Animats
Washington Post story:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/09/18/tiktok-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/09/18/tiktok-
wechat-ban-trump/)

What's the legislative authority for this?

------
stunt
I don't think they are lock-in to US based public cloud providers since they
also use Chinese cloud providers, but I wonder how this ban will impact
discussions around vendor lock-in. Lots of companies will go into deep trouble
if US decide to ban their business to use US based services in such short
notice.

------
nnx
It's terrible precedent. What about the first amendment? Software is speech.

~~~
DSingularity
Terrible precedent it may be yet the idea that software is speech is probably
even worse. You can’t just equate software with speech because to prevent an
outcome you dislike.

~~~
nickles
The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals held that software is speech in _Bernstein
v United States_. The precedent already exists.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States)

~~~
DSingularity
I will acquiesce to that argument if we were discussing the government
attempting to prevent tiktok from open sourcing their implementation.

It is a stretch, however, to present this decision as a precedent preventing
the government from regulating application markets.

------
mensetmanusman
Sad about WeChat, but have to admit it sucks that China uses surveillance of
the platform to imprison people. Would be great if it forces everyone to use
Signal or whatnot that has E2EE.

------
JohnTHaller
For those personally affected, you can still sideload WeChat, TikTok, and
Fortnite on Android just as always.

------
technics256
Can someone comment on the legality of this? I imagine Apple or Google trying
to fight this in court?

~~~
georgyo
Neither Apple or Google have any incentive to fight this. Tiktok already has
already started suing.

~~~
matz1
Apple may have incentive because iphone sales might go down because consumer
will flock to android since you can't sideload wechat on ios.

------
srtjstjsj
What does the article say?

------
joe33433
On the bright side these national bans are encouraging federated encrypted
messaging protocols

------
sim_io
So this means their recent GCP contract cannot happen now?

------
throwaway4good
I bet TikTok will see a spike in downloads over the next few days ...

Orange guerrilla marketing for the win!

------
euix
Wonder how long before Chinese people will have to anglicize their names in
the U.S.

On a more serious note, I wonder how this can be enforced? Prevent
distribution on Play store and apple store? Can't you just sideload on
android? You have to prevent connections to the server side right? Maybe via
ISP providers or mobile companies to get them to prevent access?

~~~
ericmay
> Wonder how long before Chinese people will have to anglicize their names in
> the U.S.

Why would they have to do that? Most Americans probably can't tell the
difference between Chinese, Korean, Japanese, or other East Asian names. I
guess if Fox News starts publishing "this is what a Chinese name is" we should
worry (not that I should give them any ideas), but I really doubt that'll
happen. Americans don't like the Chinese government, and for extremely good
reason.

> On a more serious note, I wonder how this can be enforced? Prevent
> distribution on Play store and apple store? Can't you just sideload on
> android? You have to prevent connections to the server side right? Maybe via
> ISP providers or mobile companies to get them to prevent access?

Yea it'll be blocked on the official distribution channels. You'll probably be
able to side load it, but lots of people don't know how to do that and
probably don't care enough. I guess we'll find out what happens. The US can
certainly have companies like ISPs comply here.

~~~
srtjstjsj
Sideload it from where?

Sure you can pirate it, but anyone involved in procuring or operating a banned
app would be violating this order.

It's like saying "oh guns are banned but can't I just call someone I know who
can get me a gun?"

~~~
input_sh
I'm assuming both of them will replace "download from Play Store" with
"download the apk" if/when they get removed from the stores. That's what
Fortnite does already.

