
“Customer support at Tesla is even worse than I claimed last time” - jweir
https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1217471369350348807
======
lhnz
There needs to be a process within customer support teams in which they can
escalate problems if the rules feel wrong to them.

If a purchase was unintentional and very large ($4,333) a refund should be
offered. This feels like common sense to me.

That's a large amount of money to lose. Providing annoyingly bad customer
service to people and then signing off with "Warm Regards" is likely to make
enemies of customers.

Edit: Somebody mentioned that Taleb might be bullshiting about there being no
confirmation, however, to be honest, I still think at this price level,
customer support should be able to refund purchases. Keep your customers happy
(and they will eventually purchase upgrades from you)!

~~~
crooked-v
Also, Tesla upgrades are universally either software unlocks ("boost mode") or
promises of future hardware/software upgrades ("full self driving"), as far as
I know, and so should all be entirely reversible in an automated way.

I think of Apple, Microsoft, and Steam for comparison, each of which have
software stores that allow refunds for purchases, some of which could
potentially be pretty significant. For example, Train Simulator has about
$10,000 in DLC [1], and a single bundle purchase of all of it would still
qualify for Steam's two-weeks-from-purchase/less-than-two-hours-of-play refund
policy.

[1]: [https://ganker.com/train-simulator-game-all-dlc-total-
cost-a...](https://ganker.com/train-simulator-game-all-dlc-total-cost-
almost-10000-usd/)

~~~
filoleg
Nitpick: while I agree that “full self driving” is kind of a promise and that
all those charges should be reversible, you still get immediate feature
unlocks today immediately after paying for it, like navigate on
autopilot/smart summon.

~~~
crooked-v
> you still get immediate feature unlocks today

So... turn those off again, then.

~~~
antsar
So I can just _borrow_ boost mode to impress my dates and turn it off
afterwards? For free?

~~~
josefx
There have been entire TV shows build around the premise of not paying a cent
with "borrowed" cars, clothes, etc. . Hell there are millions lost by people
ordering clothes on Amazon and sending them back when they don't like them.
Tesla stands out badly if it cannot even offer doing so one time.

~~~
xzcat
I think the clothes-on-amazon thing is fair and a cost of doing business,
though. If my only choices, as a customer, were "all sales are final"-buy-
online or go in-store, I would 100% go in-store. I would never, ever buy what
could be a brick in a box online if I wasn't allowed to return it if it turned
out to be a brick in a box.

And clothes have another dimension (heh, literally) of size/fit/feel. I think
it's totally reasonable to buy a shirt online, put it on, think "wow this
material is awful" and return it. That's what you can do in-store, and it's
not your fault that that loop is a lot more expensive for online retailers.

------
kitcar
Complaint was from Nassim Nicholas Taleb
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb))

Elon responded -
[https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1217493904297058304](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1217493904297058304)

~~~
ProAm
It's shouldn't take twitter and involvement of the CEO to get basic customer
service.

~~~
rhacker
This is not a Tesla only problem, mind you. Most companies I've had the
(dis-)pleasure of working with lately seem to be lacking in this area. It
isn't until the brass steps in that a decision can be made to unlock an
outcome.

~~~
ProAm
I've heard it a lot of Telsa owners where I live. And for something that costs
on avg 50k+ it shouldn't be this bad.

~~~
rhacker
I can't argue with you there. My previous Fifth Wheel RV had a sinking floor
issue that took months for the manufacturer to take seriously. It required me
to press the issue many times before they got me an appointment. That was a
60k purchase.

~~~
ProAm
Im not saying Tesla is the only company that does this. RV dealers are renown
for doing the same thing. That is why everyone recommends buying an RV that is
3 years old because everything should be fixed by then.

------
cs02rm0
When customer support resorts to justification by analogy it's not gone well.

~~~
ryandrake
I was shocked by the middle school level English grammar coming from the
company’s official customer support. Who knew you could get so much wrong in
seven sentences! Bad image for a luxury product.

~~~
rchaud
I would imagine that email support is outsourced abroad. Less likelihood of
customers getting irate over accent/communication issues, and easier to
respond to customers at all times of the day.

------
Cartonju
_" flipping a few bits to refund a digital asset is as hard as refunding a
house" what a joke_

------
BaconJuice
TIL Tesla sells DLCs for their vehicles.

------
Symbiote
What software does Tesla sell that costs $4000?

~~~
crooked-v
There are several software-unlock 'upgrades' they sell, like the $2000 'boost
mode' [1].

[1]: [https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a30294938/tesla-
model-...](https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a30294938/tesla-
model-3-acceleration-boost-upgrade/)

~~~
kossTKR
Wow that just made med like Tesla a lot less. I know it's "just business" and
all that but several thousand dollars for "unlockables" reminds of the way
gaming has taken a turn for the worse.

~~~
rexer
I never understood this. If you want the latest tech, you should be expected
to pay your share of the the R&D/materials that went into creating it.

~~~
tbabb
Tiered pricing is a standard way to allow more price-conscious customers to
get the product, while still charging higher prices to those who are willing
to pay for the best features.

A big fraction of product cost is the overhead of setting up the manufacturing
pipeline, so often the product tiers will be very small or even software
changes to the exact same object.

This doesn't strike me as unfair. It's helped me recently, when I bought the
lowest tier iPad pro (I don't care about storage or built-in cellular, and I
want the smallest one). If someone wants to pay more for those things, let
them. If it came full-price with all those features bundled, I simply wouldn't
have bought it at all.

~~~
perl4ever
I once (like 15 years ago) bought a base model car and the buttons on the
radio didn't work right. This was after the era of standard DIN radios, and it
wasn't broken, it just didn't do what you told it to. So I took it to the
dealer and after initial disbelief, they fixed it.

I realized what happened (they didn't explain in so many words) was that to be
as efficient as possible, the difference between the mid level and base level
trims was a different plastic faceplate with different labels, and a software
switch. So mine apparently had the switch set for a different trim and all
that was needed was to change it. But the exact same electronics were
installed in all the cars.

~~~
o-__-o
Still today. Audi users grab a VAGCOM and enable new features that where
disabled by the dealer. Fords disable several cosmetic features based on
initial programming that can be overwritten with a change of a single hex
value. Etc etc

Once I rented an Audi Q5 from Avis, fancy with leather seats and the
touchscreen stereo and all that jazz... but the Nav didn’t work. I didn’t pay
for the Nav addon, but the car comes standard with Nav. Looked for the Sd
card, and it was there. I figured I’d spend some time after the client to
figure out why... well before I even left, while I was putting my bags in the
trunk I noticed a panel missing and a cable dangling. I plugged the cable back
in, suddenly the car chimes and Nav appears on the stereo.

Don’t underestimate the lack of knowledge by people and the wolves who prey on
them.

------
woodandsteel
But in spite of these problems, surveys find that Tesla owner satisfaction is
very high.

Maybe the service problems effect a relatively small number of owners? Maybe
quality has been getting better, and service has been too? Or maybe Teslas
have outstanding positive qualities that offset the service deficiencies?
Maybe other auto makers also have equally bad service? Or a bit of all of
these possible explanations?

------
andybak
Can anyone confirm it's this easy to make the purchase?

I'd rather enjoy discovering that Nicholas Taleb was bullshitting here...

~~~
theogravity
This actually happened to my friend over the weekend who just bought a Model 3
Perf on a lease, and will only have the car for a few months until he moves
out of country.

His phone purchased the $7k full self driving feature while it was in his
pocket from the Tesla app.

Apparently Android has this feature where you don't have to do an unlock /
purchase confirm if the phone is near your your body.

Contact to customer support said they can't do chargebacks and to contact the
bank instead.

He managed to get the charge reversed at the bank level on Monday.

AFAIK he still has FSD enabled and we don't know what Tesla intends to do once
the bank takes back the money from them.

~~~
GhostVII
Reversing the charges through the bank is a bold move given that Tesla has
essentially complete control over your car, and the supercharger stations.

~~~
theogravity
Yes, that was our concern as well, but customer support explicitly told him to
go through his bank...

(He asked me for advice on this entire ordeal because I'm also a Model 3
owner, but I've always made my upgrade purchases through the web UI and not
the app.)

------
lazyjones
Surprisingly, Tesla hasn't optimized the processes for handling rare errors
that affect 5 out of every 100,000 customers.

~~~
crooked-v
Wanting a refund within a reasonable grace period ("immediately afterwards"
definitely counts) isn't a 'rare error', even if the purchase itself could be
considered such.

~~~
OJFord
In the UK it's a statutory right - with digital downloads you have 14 days to
either cancel for a refund or explicitly consent (i.e. opt-in, not out).

~~~
the_duke
It's not just digital goods.

In the EU all "distance selling" purchases (internet, phone) must be fully
refundable within 14 days of taking delivery.

The seller may only charge for incurred costs, like shipping.

~~~
mstade
The exception to this is customized goods, say for example a custom made piece
of furniture or jewelry. I think even stuff like engraving counts as custom
made.

------
etaioinshrdlu
I feel like Tesla has optimized it's customer support for rich people who
don't bat an eye at a few thousand here and there. I say this as a model 3
owner rather shocked at random costs that pop up from time to time...

~~~
Stephen-E
Like what?

------
MisterTea
Reason #43546 why I'm NEVER buying a Tesla.

The laughably childish comparison to a contractor building an addition is
beyond absurd and insulting. Tesla did not rip open the car and physically
bolt on additions. No labour was performed and no materials were consumed. It
simply flipped a few flag bits or downloaded an archive for $4,333. That
should be very simple to reverse and refund, even if the software was used
briefly.

Going back to that stupid contractor analogy it would be the equivalent of
buying a house with extra rooms locked by the contractor. Doesn't sound like
your house anymore. And that took me all of 10 seconds to think up. Try again,
rep.

And lastly, what kind of customer service is that? What kind of company lets
their reps fabricate awful analogies and patronize customers? That was just a
really nice way of saying "fuck you, moron".

