
Nanoplastics accumulate in land-plant tissues: study - instance
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200622152542.htm
======
acd
Plastics is an example when market economy fails. Plastics is to cheap to buy
and manufacture so it’s found everywhere. Ie plastics is an example of
tradegedy of the commons where to purchaser of plastics benefits but everyone
else sees a loss of the environment.

Trying to explain we need to develop an economic model better than market
economy or else earth will become a big waste dump. Ie we need to prize the
waste.

Tragedy of the commons
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_common](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_common)

Environmental economics
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_economics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_economics)

~~~
jaekash
No, this is not an example of the tragedy of the commons. It is simply a
negative externality:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality#Negative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality#Negative)

And I guess it is an example of market failure in the technical sense but I
don't think I would phrase that as "when a market economy fails" as it is not
clear whether you are talking colloquially or technically.

EDIT: Just to clarify why it is critical to be specific, positive
externalities are also market failures. Caring about a technical market
failures is a bit abstract, I would not lose sleep over it, they happen.

Caring about a negative externalities and advocating for them to be
internalized is a lot more concrete and actionable and not something I think
anybody really disagrees with on paper.

You will have more practical disagreements though because it is unlikely that
microplastics being used in say Denmark has the same environmental impact as
microplastics being used in say Asia or Africa:
[https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/90-of-plastic-
polluti...](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/90-of-plastic-polluting-
our-oceans-comes-from-just-10-rivers/) and applying a tax to people in Denmark
won't result in the externality being internalized in Nigeria.

~~~
lm28469
> it is unlikely that microplastics being used in say Denmark has the same
> environmental impact as microplastics being used in say Asia or Africa

Did you ever wonder why Asia and Africa are responsible for so much pollution
? I'm asking that because any amount of research will show you that first
world countries are sending hundreds of tons of appliances, computers,
smartphones, &c. per day over there for them to be "recycled", and by
"recycled" I meant burned/melted in open air dumps. (And also because they're
manufacturing all our shitty ultra short lived gadgets, cloths, &c.)

It's literally like throwing your shit on the neighbours lawn and blaming
them. Actually it's even worse now that China told us to fuck off with our
trash.

> Until recently, half of the collected plastic – especially low-grade plastic
> – was exported to China, but China has completely stopped its [used plastic]
> imports. Therefore the majority of plastic will likely end up burnt while
> just 15 percent will be recycled”

Are we talking about the future of Humanity or about "it's not my problem it
didn't happen in the country I was born in" .... we're doomed. The world is a
closed eco system so of fucking course the European plastic and the African
plastic will eventually end up in your plate (especially if the Europen
plastic is sent to Africa for "recycling")

[https://www.thelocal.dk/20180910/danes-are-sorting-more-
plas...](https://www.thelocal.dk/20180910/danes-are-sorting-more-plastic-
waste-than-ever-before-but-only-a-fraction-is-getting-recycled)

~~~
Nasrudith
Well Asia and Africia also often lack proper garbage infastructures in many
areas (they are kind of big continents) in addition to being poor enough to
wind up regularly taking external trash.

------
tombert
It makes me wonder if, in 50-100 years, plastics will be the "lead paint" of
my generation.

Plastics are undeniably useful, but it does seem like the unforeseen
consequences might be too large to ignore at this point. I just hope that it
doesn't have neurological problems.

~~~
leereeves
Isn't any potential, as yet unknown, health risk vastly outweighed by the
proven benefits in food safety and disease control?

~~~
manux
From the known risks, yes, but the unknown risks seem to possibly include
biodiversity collapse and other terrible things. I think we can remain
cautious either way, keep using plastic for food where it is necessary and
reduce other plastics elsewhere.

~~~
leereeves
> the unknown risks seem to possibly include biodiversity collapse and other
> terrible things

Can you expand on that? It's not the topic of the linked paper and DDG doesn't
show much on a link between biodiversity collapse (a proven problem) and
nanoplastics.

And what other terrible things might they cause?

~~~
ezequiel-garzon
I believe this main comment thread, and GP in particular, is about plastics in
general, and not limited to nanoplastics. Thus it involves (big) plastic
ingestion and plastic islands blocking chunks of the ocean.

~~~
leereeves
Fair point. Then what's the link between plastics in general and biodiversity
collapse and other terrible things?

~~~
ezequiel-garzon
That fact that animals end up with plastic in their digestive systems is quite
uncontroversially a terrible thing, wouldn't you agree? I can't elaborate on
the potential biodiversity collapse, as I didn't make that comment.

Edit: Clearly I just gave the easiest example, not the most relevant one. A
basic Google search points to [1], for instance, where you find observations
such as

 _If algae and plankton communities are threatened, the entire food web may
change. Animals that feed on algae and plankton, such as fish and turtles,
will have less food. If populations of those animals decrease, there will be
less food for apex predators such as tuna, sharks, and whales. Eventually,
seafood becomes less available and more expensive for people.

These dangers are compounded by the fact that plastics both leach out and
absorb harmful pollutants. As plastics break down through photodegradation,
they leach out colorants and chemicals, such as bisphenol A (BPA), that have
been linked to environmental and health problems. Conversely, plastics can
also absorb pollutants, such as PCBs, from the seawater. These chemicals can
then enter the food chain when consumed by marine life._

So, I frankly haven't carefully looked into the prospects of "biodiversity
collapse", but even that stark term sounds justified. Surely another terrible
thing, in any event.

[1] [https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/great-
pacifi...](https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/great-pacific-
garbage-patch/)

~~~
gowld
Humans breed, torture, and kill billions of fish, birds, and mammals
intentionally, every year.

Given that, why should we care about accidentally killing a few on the side?

Are you vegan?

------
hristov
By the way there is a solution to this plastic issue. Compostable plastics are
a reality. See, for example, www.naturtec.com.

We could have a world where all cheap plastics that are not expected to last
(e.g., water bottles, cutlery, packaging, bags) are compostable, and the
expensive high performance long lasting plastics (e.g., those that are part of
cars, computers, etc.) are made of traditional plastics. The latter will not
create waste because they are expensive and would not be discarded willy nilly
in large quantities. Hopefully they will be thrown in a proper landfill. The
former will simply decompose regardless of how they are discarded (although
for purely aesthetic reasons it is preferable they be discarded in a
designated compost bins).

At this point the barrier is not technological, it is purely political. We
just need to address the externality and force everyone to use compostable
plastics for things that are expected to be discarded quickly.

~~~
markdown
Bio-degradable plastic is a scam.

[https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/04/biode...](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/04/biodegradable-
shopping-bags-buried-for-three-years-dont-degrade/)

[https://theconversation.com/when-biodegradable-plastic-is-
no...](https://theconversation.com/when-biodegradable-plastic-is-not-
biodegradable-116368)

[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/23/biodegra...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/23/biodegradable-
plastic-false-solution-for-ocean-waste-problem)

~~~
frazbin
Here's the problem: Take a biodegradable bag and grind it up into dust, then
sprinkle it on the ground-- no problem. Bacteria in the soil will eat it and
turn it into biomass and gas. Do the same with a plastic bag, and the tiny
bits of plastic will just stick around, and plants grown in that soil will be
contaminated by plastic per the study.

These bags aren't breaking down quickly simply because they are big.
Decomposition is like any other kind of eating; you keep breaking the stuff
down into smaller bits until it's gas and biomass. But with plastic, where
biodegradation can't happen, the tiny bits (nanoplastics) accumulate.

Fun fact about nanoplastics: we can't reliably measure them! We can make a
reference solution and apply it to arabidopsis, but we can't count nanoplastic
particles in wastewater. I'm told they can be as small as a protein molecule.

~~~
markdown
> I'm told they can be as small as a protein molecule.

Sounds about right given that we've just learnt that plants can take up
plastic though their roots:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41565-020-0707-4](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41565-020-0707-4)

------
devalgo
This along with antibiotic resistance, ocean acidification and others are
silent civilization killers. Male fertility has been dropping for the past
several decades and accumulation of microplastics has been suggested as a
possible cause. Will the species become infertile because of this? Will we
sterilize our oceans? Will we go back to the 1800s medically where invasive
surgeries will be nearly impossible due to no working antibiotics? Few people
are aware of these problems and even fewer are working on solutions.

~~~
gowld
People are adaptable. Happiness is more determined social status than
improving physical comfort. Dead people aren't unhappy. Never born people
aren't unhappy either.

------
freeflight
Relevant reading from April 2020: _" Atmospheric microplastics: A review on
current status and perspectives"_

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001282521...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001282521930621X)

------
JoeAltmaier
Can't interpret these results, without knowing the concentrations resemble
anything like what is found in agriculture today. I suspect, but cannot seem
to find it mentioned, that very large concentrations were used to make any
effect easily measurable.

~~~
rini17
As I understood they put up to 1 gram of polystyrene per kg of growth medium.
Which is easily achievable concentration when composting biomass contaminated
with plastics, or near unregulated landfills.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
So, no impact on agriculture. That's what I figured.

~~~
goda90
Is 1 in 1000 an unbelievable concentration in topsoil? Microplastics in the
atmosphere and in water supplies could result in an ever growing amount in the
soil, and since the only way it leaves is by being washed away to contaminate
someplace else, perhaps those concentrations will exist in a decade or so.

~~~
sacred_numbers
It kind of is an unbelievable concentration except in certain exceptional
circumstances. A 0.1% concentration by weight for just the first 30 cm of
topsoil would require about 5 tons of microplastics per hectare (or about 2
tons per acre). That's a lot of microplastics. It would be the equivalent of
about 52 plastic water bottles per square meter. Unless the farm is on an
extremely mismanaged landfill, I don't think that kind of concentration is
likely.

Edit: I'm not saying microplastics aren't a problem, they're just not likely
much of a problem specifically for agricultural yields.

~~~
rini17
Sadly, mismanaged landfills are probably more common than you think. Even if
having diminished yields might not be an issue, microplastics concentrating in
edible parts of crops might be.

~~~
gowld
Farms are very rarely next to landsfills, mismanaged or not.

------
instance
Here is a post summarizing the paper:
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200622152542.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200622152542.htm)

~~~
dang
We've changed to that from [https://sci-
hub.tw/10.1038/s41565-020-0707-4](https://sci-
hub.tw/10.1038/s41565-020-0707-4). For specialized papers it's generally
better to submit the highest-quality third party description and link to the
paper in the comments.

~~~
instance
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

------
11235813213455
Every Sunday, I'm riding and collecting plastic trash along a bike lane.
coke/beer cans and all sort of plastic and paper wrappings (+masks/gloves/gel
bottles since covid19), in all sort of state (it's annoying when they start
fragmenting)

~~~
TheGrassyKnoll
You get extra points for picking up styrofoam, because its just a compound
mess waiting to happen.

------
amedvednikov
We used to survive without plastic just fine (milk in glass bottles, paper
bags etc)

Don't see why we can't just go back to that.

~~~
bluGill
Washing and returning glass bottles (even though the trips are made anyway)
uses more energy than making virgin plastic so it isn't the win you might
expect.

~~~
amedvednikov
We have renewable energy. Better than having microplastics in the water and in
the air.

~~~
firethief
The energy used to transport glass around is mostly not renewable

~~~
amedvednikov
That also has to change.

------
oneplane
This makes me wonder if we could find out what else accumulates we might not
have thought of. Perhaps certain carbon structures or metals that may not
directly pollute but accumulate all the same to a point where it does become
an issue; somewhat like the (iirc) mercury in some fish.

------
heratyian
[https://biggreen.company](https://biggreen.company) We're working on this
specific problem. Our mission is to eliminate all single use plastic bags.

------
TheGrassyKnoll
[https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Graduate](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Graduate)
(1967)

    
    
        Mr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word.
        Benjamin: Yes, sir.
        Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
        Benjamin: Yes, I am.
        Mr. McGuire: Plastics.
        Benjamin: Exactly how do you mean?
        Mr. McGuire: There's a great future in plastics. Think about it. Will you think about it?

------
Jimmc414
Is this possibly a good thing? If nanoplastics accumulate in plants, that
means less of it in the water and air, right?

~~~
hinkley
You could say the exact same thing about dioxin, mercury, arsenic.

It's not when it's in the water that it's a problem. It's when it enters the
food chain. Plastic in plants means plastic in ruminants. Does it stop there,
or does the plastic degrade and enter the bloodstream?

------
chrisco255
Plants across the globe are thriving, with enhanced CO2 fertilizing driving
record growth, and yet we still get sensational arguments about nanoplastics.
[https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon-dioxide-
fer...](https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon-dioxide-
fertilization-greening-earth/)

------
minerjoe
I can't imaging a just Mother Earth that would reward the massive destruction
of the environment (r __* and pilliage some would say) with a result that does
not end in poisoning of the organisms that "benefit" from said activity.

------
agumonkey
How long until evolution yields a very potent plastic fed organism ?

~~~
hinkley
If it has to start from scratch, it took fungi about 50 million years to sort
out lignin.

If it turns out that existing enzymes just need to be in the right place at
the right time, then who knows. 100 years of trash could pile up pretty high.

------
exikyut
OT/meta: It's really nice to see submissions linking directly to Sci-Hub :)

(It isn't yet that popular: [https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sci-
hub.tw](https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sci-hub.tw))

~~~
crazygringo
The more popular it is, the more worried I am it'll be shut down... I have
very strong mixed feelings about seeing Sci-Hub linked from here :/

~~~
exikyut
The biggest substantial concern is the .tw domain.

The data is all on Library Genesis (currently
[https://libgen.is/](https://libgen.is/)) which is very firehose-friendly (eg,
the download section has top-level links to mirrors, torrents, and database
dumps). And IIUC the ~35TB of data is actively mirrored fairly widely, which
is awesome.

Chances are the Sci-Hub project has alternative domains lined up, and probably
more than enough ideas for how to manage if all DNS failed.

------
mtgp1000
Plastics are so enormously useful in modern life that I'm willing to accept
the seeming low health costs associated with their pollution.

Yes they may be associated with certain cancers or endocrine disruption but
the effects seem to be rather tiny in comparison to the myriad of ways in
which plastics improve our quality of life.

~~~
justwalt
I think the popular concern is that this problem is only going to get worse as
more and more plastics are produced and old plastics continue to degrade into
tinier pieces of plastic. It’s particularly worrying because we’ve found
pieces of plastic in extremely locations, so containment is out of the
question.

------
idclip
Oh wow ... :/

