
What I wish I knew before moving to San Francisco - jevanish
http://jasonevanish.com/2013/01/17/25-things-i-wish-i-knew-before-moving-to-san-francisco/
======
sakopov
In my opinion the high cost of living kills everything else on that list. I'd
much rather have a comfortable living, travel the world and be optimistic that
i will have no problems buying a nice house for me and my spouse/family if i
need to/should i want to. I don't really see this possible based on what i
hear from a couple of friends living and working there. Both consumed by their
tech jobs, some cool things to do every once in a while when they're not
slaving away for a startup. I guess people have different priorities. All this
stuff is great until you're in mid 50s and you realize your less-than-
comfortable living is leaving you with a less-than-comfortable retirement.

~~~
swong8
I still don't get why folks don't consider living in places just outside of SF
that are much more affordable. Places such as South San Francisco, Daly City,
Brisbane, Oakland, etc. The proximity to the city is very close (5-10 mins).

~~~
wpietri
None of those places are, in practice, 5-10 minutes from a place you want to
be. You can see that in the BART schedules:
[http://www.bart.gov/schedules/bylineresults.aspx?route=7&...](http://www.bart.gov/schedules/bylineresults.aspx?route=7&date=01%2F17%2F2013)

And that doesn't include walking or waiting time.

Driving might seem like a plausible option, but that's generally worse.
Oakland City Center to Embarcadero is 25 minutes by car, not counting parking.
Daly City to the Mission is 20 minutes. And that's not counting parking, which
is never easy in SF.

People do live in those places. But it's definitely living in another city.

~~~
usaar333
May I ask where you are getting the driving numbers?

I live/work in soma and as long as I avoid commute traffic, Daly City really
is only ~10 minutes away. A coworker lives in Brisbane and his commute
averages 11 minutes. I frequently visit parts of Oakland far further from City
Center (say Mills College area), and it is just under 20 minutes.

If you lack a car, well, the numbers look terrible as well in San Francisco.
This is most obvious when you note that you can bike from most A to most B
faster than Muni can take you. As another example, downtown Oakland is closer
to Embarcadero or even Union Square by BART than Inner Sunset is by Muni
Metro.

~~~
wpietri
All times were from Google Maps and BART schedules. Google Maps currently
lists Daly City to Moscone as 14 minutes nominal, 17 minutes with traffic.

The "as long as I don't drive when most people want to drive" thing is nice if
that works for you, but it's definitely not the common case. Most people have
to commute when most people have to commute.

~~~
usaar333
Oh did you mean Mission Street (as in Soma), not the mission district?

I agree driving to the Moscone sucks (driving on 3rd past Harrison is a
nightmare).

Things are much better if you are talking about the Mission District:
[https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Daly+City,+CA&daddr=M...](https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Daly+City,+CA&daddr=Mission+District,+San+Francisco,+CA&hl=en&ll=37.724022,-122.445545&spn=0.126274,0.264187&sll=37.736648,-122.427692&sspn=0.126252,0.264187&geocode=FXQSPwIdwECz-
CnJY96E-3uPgDFX-
hMO2-C0LA%3BFQAsQAId4AS0-CkjM4BfPH6PgDGJUeQ9BwBYAw&oq=miss&mra=ls&t=m&z=13)

(I mentioned "avoiding commute traffic" as I figured "place you want to be"
meant for fun, not work.)

------
JabavuAdams
I'm living in Toronto, Canada, and the SF crack-head thing is always a shock.

If I'm in SF, it's for conferences and it's always strange that literally one
block away from our expensive hotel, there are zombies shambling about -- and
this is totally normal!

For those who know Toronto: it's like you're in Yorkdale, you walk one block
and you're in the worst part of Parkdale.

The other odd thing is that I seem to pay about the same in taxes, given the
author's figures.

~~~
georgeorwell
Calling people crack-heads and shambling zombies is pejorative. You don't
casually use words like fag, dyke, tranny, bitch, ho, nigger, Indian (for
native / aboriginal), and kyke, right?

If you want a name, say "drug-addicted homeless person". We're talking about
the most badly abused people in our society and you and the author are simply
abusing them more with these words. Surprise, they aren't there to say
anything back, not that they care at this point. Although I hope at least
you'd get a couple fuck you's if you tried it in person.

1/3 of homeless people in the US have a serious mental illness like
schizophrenia. Do you think that if they aren't able to distinguish between
reality and fantasy and are constantly being told to take pills by a health
professional that they will miraculously decide not to take other drugs on the
advice of a drug dealer?

If I called you a zombie for just blindly going along with the crackhead term
that the author used, you would be offended, right? Are the thank-god-for-the-
lowest-caste-so-that-I-can-not-belong-to-it opiates treating you well?

Do you think that anybody living on the street addicted to drugs is feeling
happy and fulfilled about it? I mean, it just doesn't go down like this: "I've
decided that despite the fact that drugs are bad for you, I'm going to totally
allow them to fuck up and control my life and be homeless." It's more like:
"I'm in a lot of pain, and hey for a couple hours if I do this I feel better.
Fuck my life is getting bad now and nothing I do is working, I need some more
of those things that make me feel good."

Fuck you and your expensive hotel.

edit: I was mean here, so I apologize. It probably didn't do any good, I think
I just felt like getting angry at someone.

~~~
nugget
As someone who lives around and deals with these people every day, let's call
a spade a spade and not cover it up. Have you seen a zombie movie lately?
These people basically ARE zombies - they hobble around, mutter to themselves,
smell like shit, randomly attack people, and will infect you with disease if
you touch them.

Whether they scream at/spit on/push around my sister or female employees
because they are on crack, mentally ill, or just in a bad mood, I could care
less. They need to be removed from the area because they are a real and
present threat to public safety.

I would happily donate money to move them all to a camp outside the city where
they can scream at trees and smoke tea leaves all day but for whatever reason
the powers that be seem content to leave them where they are, which directly
places the rest of us in harm's way.

~~~
__--__
The powers that be leave them alone because if they don't, they are met with
complete civil unrest in SF. Any attempt to even address the homeless issue is
met with outrage and organized protest. This goes along with the outcry
against gentrification and the lament of the city losing its "character."

Make no mistake, some of the people here actually want to live in a post-
apocalyptic zombie film. :)

~~~
theorique
_outcry against gentrification and the lament of the city losing its
"character."_

People sniffing glue, blazing crack pipes, and defecating on the street is
'character'?

~~~
jquery
It keeps the rents down and prevents richer people from moving in next door
and making you feel insecure.

------
driverdan
I considered moving to SF but chose Austin instead. I refuse to live in a
state with such a dysfunctional government and ridiculously high taxes. Some
of the same reasons I left NY.

You can do tech anywhere. You do not need to live in the bay area. If you
really like the city pick a place (like Austin) with inexpensive direct
flights and go a few times a month. You'll still save money.

~~~
_pius
_I considered moving to SF but chose Austin instead. I refuse to live in a
state with such a dysfunctional government ..._

You do realize you live in Texas, right?

~~~
Roybatty
You do realize that there are people outside of your little world that aren't
leftists/socialists/fascists, right?

~~~
beatpanda
You do realize that, objectively, Martin Luther King was more instrumental in
the Civil Rights movement than Lyndon Johnson was, right?

Oh, wait, you might not, because the Texas Board of Education took it upon
themselves to re-write history.

Low taxes are cool and all, but I don't see how anyone could live in peace
with that public school system.

~~~
joonix
Let's face it: American governmental bodies are dysfunctional at almost every
level. Most people live in California, Texas, Florida, and New York. All are
poorly managed. And then there's the federal government sitting on top.

The key to thriving in the US is to have a high net worth so you can feel
independent of this dysfunctional government. And then ignore all the
stressful noise in the crisis-obsessed news cycle.

------
guyzero
On it getting cold at 4 PM, I quote the estimable "30 Rock":

"Can’t hack it in the big city? Gonna move to the Bay Area now, pretend that
was your dream the whole time? Have fun always carrying a light sweater."

~~~
bherms
I hate that everyone calls the weather here amazing. Being cold all but maybe
30-40 days a year is not incredible weather, especially factoring in fog.

~~~
__--__
Go spend a winter in NY and then complain about the SF weather.

~~~
bherms
I have spent a winter in NY. And about 24 of them in Indiana. The thing with
those places is that I expect it to be frigid in the winter. San Francisco is
always lauded for it's "amazing" weather, which to most people -- especially
tourists who generally come with nothing but shorts + tshirts and end up
buying hundreds of dollars of giants/niners/i <3 sf gear to stay warm -- is in
the 70-80 range. Even when it is "nice" and in that sweet spot, it's only from
about 11am-3pm and then it gets cold and/or foggy and/or crazy windy
(depending which parts of the city you're in, of course).

------
jbwyme
One of the biggest shocks to me when moving to the Bay Area is the difference
in social norms and acceptable behavior. I grew up in Texas and went to
college on the east coast. For the first few months after moving out here I
was in awe by some of the things people would do and thought were acceptable.
In fact I'm still in shock by many of these things but used to them by now.
From some of the things I've seen managers do in regards to relationships with
their employees and behavior at office parties to an entire section at AT&T
park cheering when an opposing pitcher gets hurt and pulled.

Furthermore I also found it much harder to communicate appropriately as social
cues seem a bit different. I have at many times found myself in a conversation
(or lack there of) filled with awkward silence.

edit: grammatical correction

~~~
noname123
I found that people from the west coast, esp. LA and SF are more happy-go-
lucky types - meaning that if you were to meet a girl at a party or a new bro,
the person of interest might be very enthusiastic or affectionate - "leading
on" that there's specific chemistry between you or that person; when in fact
that person is just very spontaneous, in the sense of being open and fun in
any social situation. This is a bit different from the Northeast Coast frigid
weather which causes most people to be irritated and singular-minded on
roads/public transports, but causes people to find "cuddle-buddies" during the
winter; once you make a friend, that friend becomes a best friend.

I used to be upset about this. But now I'm more understanding that for some
people, they don't necessarily value their individual friendships as they
value their own belonging/membership in a clique (SF vegan-foodie who works in
SOMA startup who rides single-fixed gear) and also the necessity of forging
temporary social/professional alliances in an transient yuppie community where
most people moved to for professional advancement (marketing guys from
frattier backgrounds fraternizing with engineers with more diverse backgrounds
to advance everyone's careers).

------
DanBC2
>The most crushing aspect I saved for last though. Taxes here are
significantly higher than I’ve experienced anywhere. This means you’re
squeezed both on your take home pay and your expenses.

...and some weirdness means they don't spend that money on roads, so the road
surfaces are _lousy_. Maybe I've been spoiled by our great road surfaces in
UK.

~~~
JoshTriplett
Here in Oregon we have less than half the taxes of California, and yet we have
well-maintained roads (to the point of joking that the state flower is a
traffic cone), and well-maintained everything else. And the state doesn't
gripe about not having enough money nearly as often (and when they do it
doesn't make the national news). The state even (by law) gives _back_ any
excess tax revenue they collect each year, though the state legislature puts a
measure on every major ballot to try to prevent that (and it thankfully always
fails).

I genuinely wonder what California has done so differently to end up doing so
badly when they have twice as much tax revenue per person.

~~~
philwelch
Californians pay more in federal taxes than the state receives in federal
spending. This is also true of Oregon, but in California it's true to a much
higher degree. So the state is essentially subsidizing the rest of the country
and doesn't have enough left over for itself.

~~~
citricsquid
why is that?

~~~
1wheel
Different states have different levels of economic development. Since all
states share a common currency, it isn't possible for states like Mississippi
to devalue their currency in order to be competitive with California. Large
fiscal transfers between states are necessary to keep things balanced out.

~~~
lgieron
Why don't they just sale their goods at lower prices? No need to fiddle with
artificial (non-gold-backed) currencies.

------
zippy
"Meanwhile, here, no matter what you’re doing, those you meet will almost
always be in finance or startups."

Well, except for the taxi drivers, the restaurant workers, the police, the
teachers, the students, the grocers, the bike messengers, the lawyers, the
house cleaners, the fire fighters, the ...

~~~
paulgb
I know it's just one anecdote, but a Subway employee in SOMA once asked me if
I knew anyone that would hire him as a DBA. The feeling in SF is that the tech
world is inescapable, which some people seem to like.

~~~
aantix
I moved to SF two years ago. Since then I've had a discussion with the cashier
at Taco Bell about the differences in the way browsers render on different
mobile OS's. Had a discussion with a banker that learned Ruby to help with
some of his reporting...

Tech is everywhere here.

------
run4yourlives
This seems more of a "West Coast vs. East Coast" article than it is a "San
Fran" article.

For the most part, the author is highlighting the differences that anybody
living on the East Coast will experience in moving to one of the western
coastal cities, save perhaps LA, which as everyone already knows is its own
little planet.

Most of these "hints" hold true for San Diego, San Fran, Portland, Seattle and
Vancouver. They are all in the same vibe the way Philly, New York, Boston, and
Toronto are "the same vibe".

~~~
softbuilder
You lost credibility with me by repeated use of the vulgar "San Fran". It's
THE CITY. :)

~~~
kjackson2012
Yes, no one from the Bay Area refers to San Francisco as "San Fran". Even
worse is when people refer to it as "Frisco". It's either SF or "The City".

~~~
juan_juarez
"The City" refers to the core of whatever urban area you're in. It's
meaningless outside of your local frame of reference. The only place in the US
that has a halfway legitimate claim universal ownership of that name is NYC
and that's tenuous at best.

~~~
kjackson2012
If you read more carefully, I said people from the Bay Area call SF "The
City". I didn't say it was the universal name for SF, just for the people in
the area.

~~~
run4yourlives
Sure, but if you read more carefully, you'd understand the context for the
rest of the entire conversation is national, if not North American.

You can't expect everyone to switch context on your whim simply because you
want to.

------
mcherm
I have absolutely no interest in moving to San Francisco, and I only happened
to glance at this article because it was so highly voted on Hacker News.

Boy am I glad I did. I _still_ don't care about living in San Francisco, but I
am in awe of your amazing blog-writing skills. This is not a book or newspaper
article: it falls solidly within the typical boundaries of a blog article,
talking about own experiences and opinions on a matter of interest to him and
his neighbors. But so WELL written! The amount of detail, the little touches
like pictures that reflect, illustrate, and even extend each point being
made... I could only aspire to someday be able to write like this. I've
bookmarked it under "examples of great journalism" as an exemplar of the "blog
post" writing style.

Thank you for writing this and spending the time (it must have taken a good
deal of time) to make the presentation so polished.

~~~
baddox
On the contrary, I noticed a lot of distracting grammatical mistakes.

~~~
mcherm
I'm sure they were there, but I managed not to be distracted by them, perhaps
because the breadth and depth of the content caused me to skim somewhat (read
quickly).

------
jes5199
Here's one that I don't see discussed much: The tech meetup culture isn't that
great.

In other cities with moderately sized tech communities (Seattle, Portland,
Austin...) the user group communities are a strong social force - it's how
people collaborate, and how they share skill and technology news.

In SF, people are too busy working late at their well-funded post-startup jobs
to go hang out and talk about code as a craft. So everything is siloed by
company, and you get the Google Way and the Apple Way and whatever from the
various places that people worked together, and knowledge only moves as
quickly as people can get poached from one company and brought into another.

~~~
bherms
Also meetups here suck because most of the people in the tech scene aren't
really that fun to be around. I've been to a few launches and it was nothing
but the following: 1) people inflating their egos talking about worthless
metrics, how many exits they've been a part of, and how what they're doing now
is changing the world (guess what, it's not), 2) people just looking to be a
part of the "it" crowd of SV, 3) people looking to find some engineer dumb
enough to be their tech guy and execute the idea they have for a paltry equity
stake.

------
harel
I used to live in San Francisco for about 4 years (1998 to 2002) and for a few
months over those 4 years I lived south and north of the city. I say this very
literally, that I rather be homeless in San Francisco than live anywhere
around it. Its an amazing city that has given me a lot (and taken a lot in a
fair trade). The most amazing aspect of this city, in my opinion, is that its
where all the American 'rejects' end up in. In those years the start up scene
was different than today and not everybody around you was in a start up. But
most of those who were not native and not in a start up were those that didn't
quite fit in in their home state and though they'd find acceptance in San
Francisco. Most of them did. Its probably one of the most tolerant city in the
States where most people there have a passport and are well travelled. Yes its
expensive, but you do get what you pay for. The same applies to any big city
like London, New York, Tel Aviv etc.

Although I'm no longer a local, here are a few culinary pro tips: if you are a
sushi lover, you must visit Ebisu in the Sunset (<http://www.ebisusushi.com>).
If you fancy a good pint of Guinness, Oreily's pub in North Beach is a must
(and they make a beef and Guinness soup that is just insane).

------
gambiting
Oh US and your complaining about taxes. "You leave with ONLY 65% of your
income after paying taxes". In Denmark you pay 60% in taxes, so you leave with
40% of your income in your pocket. And petrol is now more than $10/US gallon.

~~~
jacoblyles
How healthy is the angel funding scene in Denmark?

The western European model seems great if you want a life safely doing what
has always been done.

~~~
mjn
Depends strongly on the area, with probably more focus than in the U.S. on
whether the company will produce either scientific or cultural innovation in
addition to profits, because many of the funds come from nonprofits or state
initiatives. There is a lot of seed funding for companies that can show
they'll produce a scientific impact, through either state-funded "research
commercialization" grants (where a company will propose to turn academic
research into a product), or through quasi-charitable private initiatives like
<http://www.novo.dk/composite-364.htm>

There is also a ton of arts funding, much larger than in the U.S. on a per-
capita basis, to the extent that it bleeds over into funding tech companies
too. For example, Playdead (makers of Limbo) got their initial ~$150k in
funding from the Danish Film Institute, and I know two founders with seed
funding from the Nordic Game Program.

------
bluetidepro
OP, did you honestly not _know_ how expensive it was, as well as a few of
these other points in the article? I would be shocked if that's the case. Most
of the items in the post are pretty well-known things about the San Fran area.
More or less, the title is a bit of link bait, and I doubt most of you don't
already know these things about San Fran (or the bay area, for that matter).

~~~
Osiris
When I first moved to the Bay Area, I got a 40% pay increase, but I calculated
at least a 50% increase in cost of living (coming from Salt Lake City), and
that was moving to the East Bay.

Some days I'm sad I moved away (Denver), other days I'm happy to own a home
for a lower payment than my rent in the Bay Area.

~~~
lostlogin
Did that pay increase make you better off or was it a net loss?

~~~
Osiris
I was better off in the I received several large raises while I was there. It
was actually my first job out of college so it was a bit of a jumping off
point for me. I was better off in that sense than had I stayed where I was.

------
mendocino
> I have no idea how anyone who isn’t working in a high tech role that pays an
> above average salary can live here.

I wondered that too. Anyone care to share how to get by with a non-tech salary
in the bay area?

~~~
drusenko
Rent control. A lot of people are living/stuck in apartments and paying much,
much less in rent. The high rent only applies to new people moving in, and I'd
suspect that less new non-tech people are moving in these days.

~~~
mej10
How is rent control like that legal?

~~~
msellout
You've got it backwards: rent is controlled by the law.

------
droz
I was amused by point "SF is a super fit city." As someone who lives in
Boulder, CO and frequently visits SF, I feel like SF has a lot of out of shape
people compared to Boulder. Guess it's all relative.

~~~
caniszczyk
Same here... coming from Austin... it's hilarious what people call "fit" over
here... all I see is facial hair and moobs

------
jinushaun

       Watching sports matters a lot less.
    

Welcome to the West Coast. I went from Seattle to DC and they sure do love
their sports out East. Even the nicest restaurant in town has a wall of TVs
displaying football. Every restaurant is a sports bar.

Regarding the weather, most people don't realise that SF is cold. Sunny, but
cold. It's not LA. Bring a sweater.

------
pmikesell
I moved from Seattle to SF and one big difference I noticed is that people are
waaay friendlier here in SF than they were in Seattle. It's so much easier to
get to know new people here. I think part of the reason for that is that
almost nobody _in_ SF is actually _from_ SF. Everybody you meet grew up
somewhere else, so people seem much more open to getting to know new folks.
This is particularly true as a guy trying to meet girls. "Seattle Freeze" is a
real thing.

------
coloneltcb
As a San Francisco native, I can say that this is the single best post of its
kind that I have ever read. I wouldn't change a thing, except to add the pro
tip that you should never, under any circumstances, call it "San Fran".

~~~
fennecfoxen
Alternatively, call it San Fran all the time to annoy everyone. Also,
'Frisco'.

Frisco frisco crisco frisco.

~~~
geebee
Definitely go down to the hells angels headquarters and let them all know that
they aren't really from here because they call it the "frisco" chapter.

Post back and let us know your experience! ;)

------
thisisdallas
The list:

It gets cold at 4pm

Neighborhoods define you

Rent is insane

Cost of living overall is sky high

There are crazy and cool things always going on

Costumes are a way of life

Lots of homeless, beggars and crackheads

PBR is the official beverage of San Francisco

An extremely pro-dog city

The Divisadero is the fog line

Palo Alto and Mountain View are farther away than you think

The 3 things you need to know about MUNI (Google Maps is never right about
what time the bus will come; Half of the buses require you to step down into
the steps to get the back door to open; Chinatown is a bottleneck on any route
going through it)

There are tons of amazing views

Startup Central is in SoMa

SF is a super fit city

If you’re a foodie, welcome to heaven

The 3 hour time zone difference is a big deal

Watching sports matters a lot less

Everything is taken to the extreme

You’ll turn into an early adopter even if you weren’t one before

All the best tech startups are at their best here

Working in tech is the norm, not the exception

People love novelty and new experiences

Tons of awesome lies just beyond SF’s borders

Come with an explorer’s attitude

~~~
robbyking
> Cost of living overall is sky high.

It is, but so are salaries, even in non tech fields. I have a friend in town
from Atlanta and I was explaining the benefit of this to her last night: a lot
of big-purchase items have retail prices set at a national level, so things
like bicycles, television, musical instruments, etc., feel a lot less
expensive here than they do in other places.

------
kaolinite

        Palo Alto and Mountain View are farther away than you think
    

Hm, when I visited it felt like a pretty quick journey - no more than 30
minutes via Caltrain. Perhaps it was just excitement though!

~~~
Aloisius
I commuted to Mountain View from San Francisco on Caltrain. It is doable, but
it gets old pretty quick.

Also those sports fans that the OP say don't exist much? They all take
Caltrain to go to the ballpark at peak commute hours during the season. Also,
they allow alcohol on Caltrain. Imagine a packed train full of orange and
black with lots of alcohol.

With the coming electrification of Caltrain in preparation for high speed rail
though, hopefully they'll be faster and more frequent service.

~~~
arethuza
"Imagine a packed train full of orange and black with lots of alcohol."

Try the last train out of Glasgow after an Old Firm Derby... :-|

~~~
jrabone
You're all Subway Loyal!

(we're just jealous, Edinburgh doesn't even get a subway)

------
hudibras

       Meanwhile, NFL Sundays will never be the same as 10am kickoffs is something I don’t think I’ll ever get used to. 
    

Born and raised in Seattle. Some of my fondest memories growing up were
rolling out of bed at 9:45 and sitting down to watch some football in my
underwear with a bowl of cereal in my lap. (In college, sweatpants replaced
underwear and screwdrivers replaced the cereal.) Now I live in D.C. and it's
weird that there's nothing on until the afternoon and you can stay up until
midnight watching football.

~~~
lflux
Try being a (American) football fan in Europe. Some games start at 2am,
watching the Super Bowl usually involves me taking the next day off work as
the game usually ends around 4am.

~~~
jowiar
Or a (European) football fan on the west coast... Games starting anywhere
between 3am and 8 am?

Actually, 8am is pretty nice. Wake up in the morning, pull a couple shots of
espresso, watch calcio, get on with my Sunday.

------
tomblomfield
SF is a great city - I lived there for 3 or 4 months.

Coming from London, the thing I really missed was the late-night club & music
scene.

Trying to find anything happening past 1am, especially on a weeknight, is a
non-starter.

~~~
meej
SF is surprisingly hostile to late night music for a city of its size. The DNA
Lounge blog is a good window into what it's like to own a club in SF. Here's a
classic post where jwz compares SF to Austin after attending SXSW for the
first time: <http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2009/03/16.html>

------
beatpanda
Y'all are trippin about the cost of living. I make $26,000 a year and do great
in San Francisco.

You can be lazy or live cheap here, but you can't do both.

~~~
kevingadd
Where in San Francisco? It's my understanding that rent continues to go up in
basically every part of the city, and it's even incredibly expensive _outside_
the city.

~~~
beatpanda
No. The rent on _new leases_ is going up, due to low supply and high demand,
but also _extremely_ low turnover. So people generally look for rooms, not
full apartments.

In this way, housing is regulated in SF through social factors on the low end
(i.e. whether your personality and your interests bring something positive to
a household), and price on the high end.

I pay $680 a month for my room in the heart of the Mission, mainly because I'm
an open-minded guy, and my roommates needed someone tolerant, willing to abide
by certain rules (in my case, no meat in the house) and conscientious about
shared space, which is more rare than you'd think.

If you're single and you feel the need to rent your own apartment, I just
can't relate to you. I don't get it. I feel like living down the peninsula is
a better option for people who feel like they need that much personal space.

~~~
tlrobinson
How old are you?

I lived on roughly the same salary the first year I lived in SF. I was 24 at
the time, and it was fine because I was working non-stop and didn't have much
of a life, but I wouldn't want to do it again for long periods of time.

~~~
beatpanda
I'm 24 and _don't_ work most of the time, hence the lower salary, and I still
manage to go out a lot and enjoy the city.

There's just so much free or cheap entertainment here, you don't need a car,
and it's usually sunny enough that if you get bored, just walking around is a
pretty viable option. Living here doesn't _have_ to be expensive, people just
make it that way.

------
fourstar
> Pro Tip: Oakland gets a bad rap, but there’s tons of great concerts and
> other events there worth checking out.

Or, you know, the multitude of world-class restaurants and great bars such as:
Chez Panisse, Gather, Boot & Shoe, Cafe Van Kleef, Claremont, Heart & Dagger,
etc.

~~~
tomhschmidt
? Chez Panisse and Gather are in Berkeley.

~~~
fourstar
I'm from Berkeley. Had to sneak those in there for anyone actually interested
in venturing out to the east bay ;)

------
callmeed
I'm curious: do families usually move out of the city and down into the
Valley? (there are 5 of us and generally prefer a 3-4 bedroom house).

~~~
cpeterso
Yes. SF is not a very family-friendly city: the cost of living is high,
transportation can be difficult, the schools are not great, and there are many
homeless people and "crazies".

Apparently, San Francisco has the lowest percentage (13%) of children of any
major city in the country.

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/families-flee-
san-f...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/families-flee-san-
francisco_n_1335639.html)

~~~
callmeed
Interesting. Thanks for that.

------
raldi
It gets cold at night not because of fog, but because of lack of humidity.
Same reason the desert is like that. Same reason the surface of the moon is
107°C during the day and -153°C at night.

~~~
troels
How can it be foggy _and_ lack humidity?

~~~
stevewilhelm
Most of the bay area is chaparral. The Central Valley is generally ten to
twenty degrees hotter than the coastal areas during the summer. The hot air
literally sucks the cold wet marine air inland right across SF during most
summer days.

That is why the best SF weather is early spring and late fall when the
temperature difference between the Central Valley and the SF Bay Area is
minimal, and their is much less fog.

When the summer sun goes down, the fog evaporates in the dry air and the
temperature drops.

------
purpleD
I lived in San Jose and Palo Alto from 2002-2005. Moved to NYC and have been
there since. Two things I would add: -SF (vs say NYC,Boston,Chicago) is a one
industry town and is therefore a boom and bust town. When I moved there right
after the bubble burst the guy who sold me my car was a former dev. Many of
you only know the good times, and it won't be like this forever. That's not to
say its a great place and I don't miss it. \- The cost of housing on the
peninsula and to some extent the east bay is almost as bad as SF. When you are
reqdy to have a family, at least in NYC you can live in a nice house in
Westchester or NJ. Or a really nice modern condo for half the price of NY. You
can't get a nice place with a good school district by going further away from
SF, it's like prices get even worse the further south you go until you are way
past San Jose.

------
mdanger
I haven't been here for very long, but I can't say it's a "common sight" to
see flip phones at coffee shops. :)

On a more serious note, I have to agree with the bit about being a "pro-dog"
city. I am constantly amazed at the number of dogs on the Muni, dogs in parks,
dogs tied up outside of stores/restaurants, etc.

~~~
sharkweek
Seattle is the same way -- there are more dogs in the city than children --

<http://www.seattlemag.com/article/seattles-dog-obsession>

~~~
asveikau
I've lived in both places. Back in college I also lived with someone who was
allergic. That changes my reaction a bit, I think. It makes the people who
bring their dogs on transit, to the bar or to the supermarket look like jerks.

~~~
geebee
Having kids has also changed my perspective on this. I've been taking my kids
to a sports field near a playground for the past few years, and so far, the
incidence of off leash dogs has been 100%, even though there is a dedicated
off leash space right next door. Most of the dogs have been very friendly, but
occasionally you do get an unknown very large and powerful off leash dog
bounding up to a 3 foot tall kid. This is all next to a well posted sign about
leash laws, though I have never seen any enforcement.

I've heard this is frustrating for other dog owners as well. There are a lot
of people whose dogs need to be socialized better and they try to keep them on
leash, and it's pretty much impossible to go to an open space without off
leash dogs.

I'm still 100% in favor of creating a lot of excellent off leash areas, and
most dog owners are considerate. But it does frustrate me that enforcement is
so lax that there is pretty much nowhere in SF that isn't used as an off leash
area.

BTW, if you're moving to SF, "dog wars" are definitely something you'll get
used to. Lots of emotion in SF around this one.

------
kjackson2012
I was getting ready to roll up my sleeves and begin critiquing on how it was
wrong (how could a kid who has been here 9 months know anything blah blah
blah), but this is actually a very excellent article. He pretty much hits it
right on the head, and I've lived in this area for 15 years now.

Great post!

------
crusso
SF is nice. I spent time living in different areas along the peninsula, but
definitely enjoyed living more toward the south, like in Mountain View or
Sunnyvale. Easy access to SF or SJ. Lower rent. Easier access to good hiking
at Rancho San Antonio, easy drive to Santa Cruz.

------
rachelbythebay
Any time I see something like this, I always think about writing a
counterpoint. Then I realize it's been done by someone else.

[http://al3x.net/2009/10/04/so-youre-moving-to-san-
francisco....](http://al3x.net/2009/10/04/so-youre-moving-to-san-
francisco.html)

~~~
prlin
It's still accurate after 3 years?

------
fosk
If you are more interested in the economical aspect, or you're an entrepreneur
who wants to move to SF, this is how me and my co-founders lived with
1.1k/month in San Francisco, including the rent.

[http://www.quora.com/How-do-you-live-comfortably-
on-a-40k-sa...](http://www.quora.com/How-do-you-live-comfortably-
on-a-40k-salary-in-San-Francisco#ans1028411)

Rents are more expensive now, but you can still find workarounds. At the time
I remember we didn't have lots of comforts (if any!) but we were happy with
it. We landed in SF from Italy, and had to survive somehow while living the
dream.

I don't suggest doing this for a long period of time though, except if you're
happy and really don't care. Personally, I didn't.

------
caublestone
I live in the Tenderloin, and it's not that bad. Sure there are a lot of
homeless people and drug addicts in the area . As a 24 y/o white male, I have
not felt threatened by any of the "sketchy" people here. In fact, most here
are very polite saying "excuse me", "be careful with leaving your phone out",
and "do you need help with that?". San Francisco is just a friendly place in
general.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_r...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate)

Basically the tenderloin is the ugly model. Yeah it's the worst model but
still a model. And since the price is half of anywhere else in the city, it's
worth it.

------
b3b0p
I was debating moving there.

Instead I moved to Tulsa, OK.

It had a similar feel to Palo Alto for me. At least in the area I live now. In
fact, the biking/walking seems to be slightly better. It feels like the
beginnings of a tech and startup community are forming and I am kind of hoping
I can be a big contributor to that. The city is investing massively in the
area to promote tech and startups.

And the biggest factor for me was cost of living. I own for (far) less than 1
bedroom rent in Palo Alto or San Francisco (with my 20% down payment of
course): 2000 sq/ft 3 story condo on the river for less than a grand a month.
I pretty much went months without using my car too, walking and biking only.

~~~
xxpor
OTOH, the politics of OK suck, and so do the alcohol laws.

------
DigitalJack
I saw PBR in wholefoods the other day here in Portland, OR. I was kind of
shocked. I always considered PBR to be on par with Milwaukee's Best... In
other words, nasty cheap beer that people only drink to get drunk.

So I'm wrong?

~~~
justin
I thought most of the article was pretty spot on, except for the PBR being the
drink of SF.

PBR is all over hipster bars in the Mission, but there are plenty of places
where you can't get it (most bars in the rest of the city). The true drink of
SF in my opinion is Fernet, which is heavily consumed by long time San
Franciscans. Fernet has a long history in the Bay Area (SF is even listed in
the Wikipedia page on Fernet <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernet>), and
surprisingly it is stocked in almost every bar. I've personally had it in
everywhere from the Kabuki movie theatre to bars in North Beach to the
Mission.

TLDR: Fernet is the drink of SF.

~~~
geebee
Fernet? Wow, never heard of it. Sounds kinda cool.

If we're talking beer, I'd say Anchor Steam is the drink of SF.

------
zem
the "distance from mountain view" was spot on. when i moved here to work for
google, i was debating between living in the city and commuting, or living in
mountain view and going up to the city to do stuff. thankfully, i'd spent nine
months living in mountain view a few years ago, and knew that, realistically
"going up to the city" would never happen (i don't drive); if i wanted to be
in san francisco after work i pretty much had to live there.

so far, while the commute is a bit painful (45 minutes going to work, 70-90
coming back), i have no regrets about deciding to live in sf.

------
dilap
Coming from Oregon, PBR has a surprisingly low profile -- Tecate seems more
like the "it" beer in SF. Maybe a neighborhood thing.

(Also Fernet, which I'd never heard of before -- it's sort of like a grown-
up's Jaëger.)

------
combataircraft
The streets smell pie and marijuana.

Tenderloin is the shittiest places I've ever seen.

Local poor people stick on tourists and try to rip you off.

Go one street below of Market, you'll see junkies injecting heroin to their
arms.

There is no street that can be called as "the heart of the downtown".

Cafes get close on 6 or 7pm.

The ocean is fucked up by some industrial shit. and the people think "it's
ok".

The transportation is fucked up.

Streets are big and straight. Nothing smells historical or romantic.

Rents are crazy. I saw an apartment in a shitty neighboorhood for 1450$ per
month and I even don't leave a dog in that kind of small and unhealthy place
with no sunlight!

Bay Area is fucking lame.

------
umangjaipuria
Hope I'm not repeating something already mentioned in this large discussion,
but here's another thing to add to that list:

Once you live in San Francisco for a few years, it will become difficult to
move elsewhere. You get used to all the cons mentioned. You will start loving
running in the 6pm chill, the cultural diversity and the intellectual
similarity, the feeling of living in slightly in the future compared to the
rest of the world...

------
redwood
The only critique I have: PBR is the hipster brew of choice _everywhere_
especially here in NYC and up in Portland... BUT in SF there is a healthy dose
of Tecate as well.

In fact what sets SF hipsters apart from their peers is that they drink Tecate
(and modelo).

Anyway I'd call it a Tecate town. Really miss the stuff here in NYC... $2 at
delirium, those were the days

*edit: with lime!!

~~~
natrius
I'm sure there are plenty of regional PBR equivalents. In Austin, it's Lone
Star. I rarely see PBR, but I see plenty of hipsters.

------
autarch
Pro tip: saying "pro tip" sounds kind of douchey. Try something else.

~~~
cpeterso
This.

(though I hate "this" even more than "pro-tip")

------
lowglow
I might be a little late to the party, but if you're in San Francisco or
looking to move here, you should really attend a San Francisco Hacker News
event. We throw movies, meetups, poker games, dinners, and soon to be
hackathons.

Visit us at <http://sfhackernews.com/>

We'd love to meet you!

------
rootedbox
Wonders how anyone can live without being in the tech industry... then chooses
not to buy local..

You are making things a lot harder on the families of SF that have been here
for a long time by not shopping local.. please think of that next time you
order on amazon from your soma office.

~~~
jgmmo
Buy local is the biggest crock (with one exception: if you honestly and truly
believe the food is better quality). It causes a net loss for society.
Consumers can't purchase as many goods, and the goods being purchased are not
being produced as efficiently as the 'non-locals' version. Which means your
groceries cost more every week then they would have otherwise.
<http://mises.org/daily/5283/The-BuyLocal-Canard>

~~~
dubfan
Ah, a Mises Institute article, definitely a non-biased source not trying to
push a certain socioeconomic agenda. </sarcasm>

~~~
jgmmo
Ah, a personal attack against the organization whom hosts the article and yet
complete avoidance of any consideration of the points made in the article, so
refreshing. </sarcasm>

~~~
meh01
The problem is that the article isn't worth even reading because of the
source.

It's like linking to the AEI or Heritage Foundation or some US Chamber of
Commerce stuff. You know what you're going to get, and there's no point
wasting cycles.

~~~
msellout
Regardless of the source (I didn't read it), there are some good arguments for
buying non-local, non-organic being better for the environment. Efficient
farms use less land to produce the same amount of food. Taxing carbon and
pollution appropriately would allow lowest price to correctly indicate what is
best for society, including environmental concerns.

------
buf
I wrote a blog with pretty much the same feelings a couple days ago (Although
slightly more cussing): <http://bufordtaylor.com/post/40632724667/on-san-
francisco>

Love this town.

------
jamesjyu
Very thorough write-up, and, as a longtime SF resident, I concur most of it is
accurate.

One thing I want to add is that even if you aren't into startups when you get
here, there is a great chance that you'll get swept up into the tech industry
by sheer osmosis.

------
Cl4rity
Well, of course it's going to come as a big shock coming from Boston, because
I don't consider Boston to be a "big city." I was born and raised in Los
Angeles, I lived in San Francisco for a while, and now I live in New York City
--Brooklyn, specifically. Much of what you said applies to New York, too.

I don't agree with the weather thing. I've been to Boston where it was 60
during the day and in the low 30s at night, and San Francisco will never, ever
get as cold as Boston does during the winter. Hell, it doesn't even really
snow in SF except for a few weird flukes in the past.

Rent, cost of living, etc. is the same in NYC, too, which is fast becoming a
startup city.

~~~
muzzamike
I find it interesting that Boston often gets the rub of being a "small city".
It certainly is when compared to New York or LA, but when looking at the metro
area it's on par with San Francisco:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistica...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas)

Not that there's anything wrong with being a small city!

~~~
mtalantikite
I think it's because most people don't really consider the metropolitan area
to have anything to do with the city itself. For New York, parts of Jersey and
Connecticut count as the metropolitan area, but you'd never say New York and
mean New Haven.

With that in mind, Boston is 600k or so people, which is tiny in city terms.

~~~
ghc
That has nothing to do with the actual size of Boston. That's a political
artifact more than anything else, as neighborhoods around Boston didn't want
to get annexed around the turn of the century. Boston's continuous urban
population, which includes Cambridge, Brookline, etc. is over 4 million.

Having lived in Atlanta, Boston is a much bigger city despite Atlanta having a
population of 4 million within it's proper city limits. That's why you never
use city population over metro area or continuous urban population statistics
to determine actual city size.

~~~
mtalantikite
4 million? That seems like a lot. As a New Yorker formally from Boston, I tend
to think of the city as the places that the subway can get you. Coming from
wikipedia:

Boston: 625,087 Cambridge: 105,162 Brookline: 58,732 Somerville: 75,754
Newton: 85,146 Chelsea: 35,177 Revere: 51,755

Which is 1,036,813. Any others I'm missing?

~~~
ghc
Actually, there's quite a few, if you you by what you get get to via the
subway. That means Everett, Braintree, Quincy, Newton, Medford and several
others.

But there's a more systematic way city size is measured: MSA and CSA. Boston's
MSA ( [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston-Cambridge-Quincy,_MA-
NH_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston-Cambridge-Quincy,_MA-NH_MSA) ) is
4.5 million, with 4 million being defined as "urban" population. These are all
places served by MBTA (which claims to serve 5 million).

Now, the main issue in the way you're looking at it is that those of us from
the northeast have an entirely different view of what "urban" is. There are
places in the center of Atlanta that have laughable density compared to any
northern city, and the Atlanta subway system serves maybe half a million
people. And yet Atlanta has a metro population of 5 million with an urban
population of 4 million. The threshold for urban is very low compared to what
we're used to.

The truth is that the vast majority of American cities feel like they're
mostly suburban sprawl. Yes, Boston is dwarfed in size by NYC, LA and Chicago,
but Boston is also roughly the same size as SF, DC and Miami. And no matter
what the statistics of city-limits population say, it's has more people and is
more densely populated than most other cities in the country, including San
Diego, Minneapolis, Charlotte, Detroit and Seattle.

As I recall, it's the 5th largest CSA, 10th largest MSA and 4th most densely
populated city in the country.

~~~
mtalantikite
Yeah, it probably has to do with what we consider urban, or feel to be urban.

The MSA for New York includes places no one would ever consider parts of NYC
-- if I'm out on long island or in connecticut I'm not in the city. Just like
if you're out in the Boston suburbs you're not really in Boston/Cambridge.

If it really is technically 4 million that's cool, but when I'm in Boston it
doesn't feel like a city of 4 million. Just like NYC doesn't feel like a city
of 19 million, even if that's what its MSA is.

Boston feels like a small place, just like SF. Nothing wrong with that, it
just is what it is.

------
tesmar2
Marin headlands is one of the most beautiful places to go when you are there.
For someone from the east coast, walking along those dramatic cliffs was very
exciting. My wife and I imagined we were in Scotland!

------
crag
All of you can always move down here to Miami (South Florida). I actually live
in Fort Lauderdale across the street from the beach. I do a lot of work in
Miami.

For the price you pay for a tiny apartment in NYC you can live VERY well down
here. Of course, Florida is crazy.. :) Not to mention you lose your net
connection when a storm flies by.

And if you in tech, spanish is a must. Since much of the tech work here is
linked to South America. The one exception is medical. Though there is a fair
amount of banking work down here too.

Of course you'd be living outside the bubble. That brings it's own drawbacks.

------
drallison
Not mentioned is one of the great San Francisco treats: THE EXPLORATORIUM.
<http://www.exploratorium.edu>. The Exploratorium is moving in April from the
old facility near the Palace of Fine Arts to a more central location on the
waterfront. While it's a great place for family and kids, it's also a great
place for the rest of us. And, in the new location there will be more events
like the popular date night "after dark" gatherings. And if you've got spare
cash, donations are always welcome.

------
simoneau
I like Paul Graham's comparison of cities, "you should be smarter" vs "you
should live better" vs ...:

<http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html>

------
rdl
The really big point to consider, IMO, is within SFBA -- there are huge
differences among SF, Peninsula, and East Bay, and variations within each of
those as well. I personally put SF below many other places in the US to live,
but really like the Peninsula -- the big issues being crazy California-level
politics/taxes/regulations and really high cost of living (mainly, housing and
tax; fixing zoning issues would bring down housing prices, and fixing prop
13).

It's like comparing West Texas and Austin.

------
jimmyhchan
Prep for an earthquake. This is not techy but very necessary.

------
combataircraft
I really envy the people who think "SF is amazing!!!"

If SF is amazing, what the hell is Rome? New York? Taipei? Istanbul? Tokyo?
Paris?

San Francisco is the biggest village of US.

~~~
meh01
While I agree with you in that San Francisco is nowhere near "global city"
status (I don't know what people are thinking when they say stuff like this),
unfortunately this is where most of the tech world is. So you're going to get
articles like this.

The funny thing is, the food here really isn't that great, the coffee is also
average at best, but these are all relative to the rest of the US.

------
nwenzel
As for the high cost of living, try looking at it from a different angle.
Instead of thinking about how much more you can get for your money elsewhere,
ask why are all those other places worth so much less.

I'm not saying the math adds up to you needing to move to SF, NY, Boston, or
other city. But this post helps explain why SF is valued so highly by the many
people who choose to live in here.

------
DeepDuh
Thanks for all the great info, it's very helpful for someone like me, who's
gonna come to the SF area the first time in march (attending / giving a talk
at GTC San Jose 2013).

One more question, is there something like a weekly pass for the Caltrain,
such that I could visit SF in the evenings after conference?

~~~
gergles
No, but you can buy an "8-ride ticket" for a slight discount.

From San Jose, you'd need a 4-zone ticket, which would cost $64.75 -- this
gives you 4 round trips to SF.

<http://www.caltrain.com/Fares/farechart.html>

(Note: You'll need to acquire and use a Clipper Card to use 8-ride tickets,
see <https://www.clippercard.com/ClipperWeb/index.do> \- or just go to a
Walgreens when you get here and you can buy the card and the 8-ride ticket at
the same time.)

~~~
fennecfoxen
The 8-ride ticket was recently nerfed+. The discount is smaller, and you have
to use all 8 rides within 30 days now instead of 60-90-whateveritwas. So if
you're going up and back at least once a week, it's a small savings, but if
you miss even one ride then you've probably wiped out several 8-rides' worth
of savings.

I think they're doing a paper-ticket surcharge anyway so get the Clipper card,
and consider paying with Clipper-loaded cash value instead.

(+ They were planning to get rid of 8-rides entirely and making it paper-
ticket or 25c-discount-for-Clipper in something that amounted to a stealth
fare hike - of course they denied that was the main motive).

------
toastedzergling
Does anyone have the time to do a similar writeup for the tech scene in and
around LA? I'm probably going to be doing the move from Boston-LA myself in
just a few months.

~~~
flexxaeon
Perhaps you should write that after you make the move. :) And even then it
would be difficult.

As you likely already know, one thing sure to be on that list is "have a car".
Which stems from the reason making such a list would be difficult. LA is so
spread apart, what's true for someone on the westside isn't gonna ring as true
for someone downtown, to south bay, to OC/irvine (if we're even counting
OC/irvine).

lots of tech companies here in LA but due to the lay of the land and 30 mile
commutes, they don't mingle as much.

------
EToS
Spent some time in SF after PyCon last year.. a good pro tip is dont attempt
to walk home if you live in the hills! :)

Really great experience.

------
brooksbp
"To put it all in perspective, I used to take home about 75% of my pay in
Boston and here it’s only 65%."

Is this because of state income tax?

------
nhangen
Can someone please explain to me why PBR is so popular in SF?

I really want to know. How did it become trendy to drink bottom-rung beer?

------
VonGuard
The dood nails it. If you're considering moving to the Bay Area, read this,
every word of it. Very well done.

------
ianstallings
Except for the weather that sounds almost exactly like my life here in
Brooklyn. I gotta get out west.

------
hackintosher
Just want to say thanks, this helps a lot since I'm in the process of
migrating there right now.

------
lominming
Great write up! I stay by the south bay but I still find useful information in
your article.

------
nikunjk
I don't think I have head-nodded as much on any other article. Thanks for
writing this up!

------
guard-of-terra
For some reason I only got to read the article after I null-routed
r-login.wordpress.com.

------
dutchbrit
You nailed pretty much everything, but shouldn't the Castro bike be missing a
saddle?

I quite enjoy visiting SF, I actually love the place & diversity. Favourite
season has got to be the Indian Summers :).

~~~
Aloisius
_shouldn't the Castro bike be missing a saddle?_

Wow. Really?

~~~
evan_
because it got stolen, what did you think he meant

------
blibble
are those rental prices really per quarter?

if so they're making central London look exorbitant, I have friends paying
that per month for studio flats!

~~~
smartician
They're monthly rents, sampled in the respective time spans.

------
mcovey
that rent is unbelievable. I pay 505 a month for a very large 1 bedroom in a
gated community...

------
jrockway
Manhattan is a lot more expensive than San Francisco. Even Brooklyn is more
expensive, just not by much.

~~~
potatolicious
Moved from SF to Manhattan 6 months ago, this characterization is no longer
entirely accurate. Manhattan now is _barely_ more expensive than SF, and most
of SF is more expensive than most of Brooklyn.

People aren't really aware of just how _fast_ cost of living is going up in
SF. Manhattan averaged, what, 5-6% year over year, and we think that's high.
Some neighborhoods in SF have experienced >100% YoY rent growth, but more
typically in the 30-50% range (seriously!).

It's really insane out there, to an extent most people outside of SF don't
know.

Right now in any of the "cool" neighborhoods of SF a studio would be cost
comparable to one in the Upper East Side or Chelsea, though you'd probably get
a bit more space for your money (not by that much though). It'll be a _lot_
more expensive than any of the gentrifying Brooklyn neighborhoods, but
probably slightly cheaper than the real gentrified bastions like Park Slope or
Dumbo.

SF is fucking nuts, that's all I can say.

~~~
mtalantikite
It'll be interesting to see the numbers after this boom, SF certainly is
getting a lot more expensive. Latest figures though did put the order:
Manhattan, Brooklyn, Honolulu, and then SF:

[http://gothamist.com/2012/09/01/manhattan_and_brooklyn_are_t...](http://gothamist.com/2012/09/01/manhattan_and_brooklyn_are_the_two.php)

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mcantelon
PBR? Ew.

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nerdfiles
I left a note and a dollar to a street violinist who was playing Dark Side of
the Moon at MUNI / Bart.

The note read: "Where is your <http://gittip.com> URL?"

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fyvush82
this is inane

