
Ask HN: How to deal with an abusive co-worker? - throwaway1980s
Throwaway for obvious reasons.<p>In the last five months, a new engineer, we&#x27;ll call them Jerry, joined the startup I work at in a critical position. We started out on great terms. However, recently incredibly high demands and time constraints were imposed, and combined with failure for the company to meet revenue goals, have created a very stressful place to work.<p>As part of my job, I have to make requests of Jerry. Randomly, the reply would be incredibly rude, and extremely unprofessional. Everything from swearing me out, to insisting that I only communicate with him indirectly via our boss, to Jerry threatening an immediate resignation if I persisted in making the request, despite it being a normal request.<p>Few days later, I would be given a curt apology, reassurance that this wouldn&#x27;t happen again, and Jerry would ask me to forget all about the incident. Jerry would then treat me as if nothing had happened at all, and would back to being polite and professional. Later, the process would repeat itself.<p>I work with about 5 to 10 other engineers. It is only Jerry that treats me this way, and so far, it has only been towards me.<p>I am currently doing a significant amount of leadership work in this company, and as the company is simply too small, and Jerry&#x27;s position too critical, to be able to avoid working with him. With the stresses of the job already so great, the additional of straight personal attacks to all of this has made my work output suffer and frankly makes me hate coming to work.<p>I&#x27;ve met and worked with all kinds of engineers, from the quiet to abrasive, but never have I worked with anyone who has ever treated like this, and I have no idea on how to handle this situation.<p>I&#x27;m currently on vacation, and have been debating with if I want to stay with the company at all because of this situation.<p>My boss already knows how Jerry acts and hasn&#x27;t done anything. Please HN, help me decide what I should do about Jerry.
======
frostmatthew
> My boss already knows how Jerry acts and hasn't done anything.

If your boss knows how Jerry treats you (and that you're uncomfortable/unhappy
about it) and he's unwilling to do _anything_ about it you might want to
consider talking to your boss's boss. If neither is concerned with how Jerry
treats his co-workers it might be time to update the resume.

~~~
throwaway1980s

      If neither is concerned with how Jerry treats his co-workers it might be time to update the resume.
    

Both are aware, and I've already spoken with them about it.

The response was, from my boss, that nothing can be done as if he leaves, it
would set the, now struggling, company back months at least, and from my
boss's boss (company is small, so they are both C level), that the problem
will go away with the reduction of stress once there is eventually someone
hired to help with Jerry's responsibilities.

I do not disagree with my boss, Jerry's position is critical and he's already
doing the work meant for three. However, we've been hiring for that position
for 8 months now, and we've had a net loss of employees there of 2. I also
don't feel that an additional employee or more would solve the problem, as the
position will always require some level of stress on Jerry.

You're right in that I should prepare for a job change, and I've already
started, I'm just hoping there's something I can do or try, since it used to
be an amazing company to work for, and with the exception of this major issue,
otherwise still is.

~~~
mode0
I'm reminded of the statement from the Netflix culture slides circulating
around the net (paraphrasing): a company's culture is evident in who gets
promotions and praise, not what is in a values statement.

Your management is willing to ignore childish behavior because it helps their
bottom line. The path is clear - decide if you want to work in an organization
that exhibits those values. If not, move on.

~~~
001sky
If <two> c-level execs are fully aware of this and making excuses for it,
you're facing a serious problem. They are either scared (ie, not confident)
that their own positions are at stake (ie, BOD will fire them), or they are
displaying their true selves in a way which is unflattering (to say the
least). I agree with mode0, you have to make a decision and develop a strategy
in light of that.

------
orionblastar
First you have my condolences and sympathy. Many times I have been in that
same position, coworker is a jerk, bully, harassing me, being abusive and
violating company policy.

I really don't know what the right solution to that is, because every case I
had they kept the abusive employee but fired me.

I was nice, professional, and asked the abusive employee to please stop that
behavior as it had made me feel bad, and asked management to look into it when
he or many others refused to treat me like a human being.

In 2001 the stress from that hostile environment was so much, I got stressed
out and developed a mental illness and then went on short-term disability and
as soon as I returned I was fired.

Ever since I could not hold a job, because if an employee noticed I was
mentally ill, they would abuse me, and if I complained about it I would be
fired.

Sadly most managers feel that the employee who is picked on should be fired
just because they are complaining about other employees. In fact in some cases
the abusive behavior is rewarded by promoting the abusive employee or giving
them a pay raise and telling them in front of the other employees what a great
job they are doing.

Sometimes this abusive behavior is done on purpose to get rid of a coworker
they don't like, so they 'skirt' the rules and policies and do whatever it
takes to make you quit or be fired. It is called office politics for a reason.

~~~
dfraser992
I second the idea that this is all deliberate in order to get rid of you; that
was the first thing I thought of. It sounds like you've tried to handle the
situation the right way and your boundaries keep getting stepped on. I myself
have gotten snippy due to stress, but I certainly felt guilty and made an
effort to double check my behavior. Either Jerry is immature or this is all
deliberate. If the chain of command has been informed, yet do nothing, and
you're easier to replace... then it sounds like they want you gone.

In any case, staying there out of some sense of loyalty is noble, but the
world doesn't care about such things. Life is too short to work with people
who treat you badly, no matter what the situation. Your stress is only going
to keep increasing. Finding another job is a PITA, but as long as you go about
it consciously, it shouldn't be too bad. I myself got forced out / forced to
quit - my stress levels were deliberately ratcheted up, my emotions took over
and I made bad decisions. That is how people get manipulated - keep putting
them under stress till they make short sighted emotionally based decisions.

------
lyndonh
You have been put into a very difficult situation (by other people). As you
say, if things come to a head you will be the one forced to leave. Stress is
not an excuse; OK maybe the odd outburst but not what you describe. Clearly,
you are stuck in a cycle and I doubt the apology is sincere.

I like to think I am thick skinned, open minded and easy to get along with. No
one is perfect though. I've never complained to a boss about eccentric or
awkward coworkers. However, no company could ever pay me enough to be sworn at
or threatened.

I was going to suggest to you that you switch to all communications via email
as you mentioned but given that you have to work closely with him it's not
really viable.

That leaves you 3 choices: 1. switch to another role where you don't have to
deal with his shit. 2. get another job. 3. stand up to him, give it back to
him 3x what he gives you. I'm guessing option 1 is unlikely in a startup,
option 3 is only going to get your colleagues annoyed with you.

Anyway, polish that resume and next time he blows up tell him to get lost. If
your managers are too weak to deal with the situation then you're better off
out of there. A good manager would realise that Jerry is having a corrosive
affect and for everything that he brings to the company, there is a cost.

------
NAFV_P
Sympathies, my dear hacker.

> _Few days later, I would be given a curt apology, reassurance that this
> wouldn 't happen again, and Jerry would ask me to forget all about the
> incident. Jerry would then treat me as if nothing had happened at all, and
> would back to being polite and professional. Later, the process would repeat
> itself._

This indicates he is aware of his poor behaviour, but it seems he hasn't given
any reasons. You haven't stated whether you have talked to Jerry directly
about this, if you haven't I suggest this would be a first step. Whether or
not this is successful, analyse what his response was. It will give you a
deeper idea of what kind of sociopath you are dealing with.

HNer grumps said below to _weigh the risks_. This is a very difficult problem
that I have dealt with myself, so I would say from my experience to tread
carefully. Before doing something, you need to second guess how other people
will react, and prepare accordingly.

You mentioned that he makes over the top requests, such as indirect
communication via your boss. One idea I would suggest is to bow down to all
his requests, no matter how silly (unless it is dangerous or illegal). It
sounds like your job is very fast paced and results are demanded on time.
Eventually his behaviour will have an effect on the system, especially if he
holds a critical position, and it will be noticed.

Shitty behaviour in the workplace seems to be a growing problem (I've seen
several articles regarding this trend in the last year or so). Would anybody
know of any forums or websites that deal with this? Has anyone come up with a
hack to solve this problem?

~~~
throwaway1980s
_> You haven't stated whether you have talked to Jerry directly about this, if
you haven't I suggest this would be a first step._

The only time we've discussed these things is during the post-mortem/apology
phase, and it has always been the same reason, stress. I could inquire about
it after during a time when Jerry is more professional, I have not tried that.

 _> One idea I would suggest is to bow down to all his requests, no matter how
silly_

I have considered this, but since I have learned attempts to resolve this on
my own are at best futile or at worst provoke further attacks, I now
immediately raise this to my boss's attention, who spends time to calm him
down, and at the same time repeals the demands.

I honestly think right now, my best course of action is to prepare for
interviews and spend some time lining up something to switch over to. If it
happens again between then and now, that will just accelerate my plans.

~~~
NAFV_P
> _... but since I have learned attempts to resolve this on my own are at best
> futile or at worst provoke further attacks ..._

He sounds like a nutter, getting a new job sounds like a good idea.

I was just thinking, he said sorry, which I find surprising (although whether
or not he is sincere is another matter). At my last job I never got an apology
for bad behaviour. A young girl who I worked was fucking horrible, when I
demanded an apology for her threatening to punch me in the face, she just
denied it like a cunt.

~~~
throwaway1980s
_> he said sorry_

Since every time there has been intervention by my boss prior to an apology, I
have no idea if that was requested by my boss or not.

 _> I demanded an apology for her threatening to punch me in the face, she
just denied it_

That's really depressing, it sucks that you had to deal with that. May I ask
what the conclusion was? Did you end up changing jobs?

~~~
NAFV_P
> _Since every time there has been intervention by my boss prior to an
> apology, I have no idea if that was requested by my boss or not._

Now that is interesting, I'm guessing that your boss was responsible for those
"sorries".

> _May I ask what the conclusion was? Did you end up changing jobs?_

The conclusion was I got into a lot of trouble for shouting at her, the 2IC
was warning me that I could be put on an employment blacklist (he was lying
through his teeth), and everyone else just believed her side of the story. I
was released from that job a month later. The boss was almost an alcoholic, so
I'm not surprised that it was a horror house. I was told that I was "hired by
mistake", have you ever come across this situation?

------
nRike
> a new engineer, we'll call them Jerry, joined the startup I work at in a
> critical position.

No matter if he's the CEO, he should not be an asshole with their team.

> recently incredibly high demands and time constraints were imposed, and
> combined with failure for the company to meet revenue goals, have created a
> very stressful place to work.

So stress comes from not being able to make money. If you are just doing what
your boss says, Jerry should not make it personal.

> My boss already knows how Jerry acts and hasn't done anything.

He's responsible of solve this issues, if he's doing nothing, you should leave
ASAP.

Please, drop me a line at my personal email (look at my profile), I'd love to
help you find a new job.

------
penguinlinux
You are not in high school anymore, you don't need to accept the bullying of
this guy. Tell him to act like adult, and tell your boss that he needs to
follow proper HR practices and control this guy. Your sanity and peace of mind
depends on a healthy work environment. If your boss can't control this guy
tell him that you will seek legal advice on how to deal with this situation.

You boss will hear this and make sure things get under control. the last thing
he needs is a lawsuit

~~~
throwaway1980s
I'm not sure anything illegal has occurred here? Or that I would have a case?

~~~
pmiller2
That's why you've been advised to talk to a lawyer. If you do that, your
lawyer might start throwing around terms like "hostile work environment," and
such, which will get attention, but not necessarily the kind of attention
your're after. If you're not careful, you could end up fired (possibly
illegally, but suing for this opens up another can of worms -- who wants to be
the guy who sued his last employer?).

If you've gone all the way up the chain in management and nobody is willing or
able to do anything for you, your only choice is to either suck it up or do
something about it yourself.

------
jardaroh
This is simple, you can turn in your letter of resignation. While you do that,
explain that the situation has just gotten out of hand. Thing is, a company
can't just fire someone unless they have a reason to, if they feel they are
losing employees they get that reason. It is a gamble though, so stay cool and
think it through.

~~~
grumps
This will require you to weigh the risks. While I like the approach, you'll
have to trust your gut. You're gut is going to have to say that MGMT will
believe the cost of replacing Jerry < the cost of replacing you irregardless
of most personal relationships. Especially if the loss of Jerry could
negatively impact revenue more then the loss of you as an employee. There's
also a moral factor if you're gone and above is cold hearted logic.

~~~
throwaway1980s
The moral factor hits home, as if I did this, then one of us would be out of a
job, regardless. It feels like a failure regardless of the outcome.

I also know from prior conversations that it would result in me being the one
walking, as while my position is important and my tenure at the company
longer, I would be easier to replace vs Jerry.

~~~
lostdog
It is a failure, but it's not your failure. Your boss failed to bring about a
positive outcome, and the only thing in your power is to deprive them of an
employee that they clearly don't deserve. Good luck!

------
michaeldwp
Well, I don't know the full situation, but I'd like to echo part of what
NAFV_P said, with a focus on the talk:

If it were me, I'd probably try grabbing a coffee/tea/beer with him outside of
the office, if possible (or, if you have your own private office, then that'd
work too), and just talking with him about the situation, peer to peer, and
try and understand what's causing this behaviour.

Just try to be tactful about it. Even broaching the subject may be a bit
awkward, but if you can figure out a way to discuss this with him in an
amicable way, it may be worthwhile.

It kind of sounds as though he's in a very stressful position. Maybe it's just
the stress?

It could be something simple. Maybe it's something you're doing or not doing
that irks him somehow. It's also possible that it could be something
completely outside of you and the company, and he's just taking it out on you
inadvertently.

Consider empathizing with him and try to figure out what's going on. Odds are
there's actually a reason. Once you figure out what the root of the problem
is, you're more likely to be able to figure out how to make things better.

If it's something you can do to help, you can try and resolve the issue. If
not, just try to come to an understanding that there's no hard feelings; that
you'd like to at least remain cordial, and even friendly, if possible...

In my humble opinion, getting HR or your/his boss involved as mentioned
below/above may work on the surface, but you'd likely just be forcing him to
suppress whatever it is that's upsetting him... not sure how well that'd go in
the long run. At this stage, I'd go for the "talk with him" route. But maybe
that's just me.

If you talk with him and it doesn't help the situation, then at least you
truly tried getting to the root of the matter.

I dunno, just a thought for your consideration. I hope this helps somehow.

 _Disclaimer: I 've never been in this situation before... this is just my two
cents on the matter._

~~~
throwaway1980s
_> If it were me, I'd probably try grabbing a coffee/tea/beer with him outside
of the office_

That's exactly what I have done before. I mean, I work with Jerry every day,
and we would regularly go out for a beer after work to talk.

In asking about it, the response with "stress, and let's keep it behind us."

Maybe it is stress, maybe it's not, and maybe I am doing something that
provokes Jerry unknowingly, but in any of these cases, does it give him the
right to respond like that? If I am doing something to provoke him, and he's
put in a situation that allows for speaking freely, away from other coworkers,
and he still can't tell me what it is, is there any way for me to stop doing
it?

------
onedev
Please just leave. If at the very least to send a message.

There are hundreds of places looking for developers. You can find a job if it
really comes down to it! Update that resume and get going, this is your life
:)

------
argntnspc
Are you able to speak with him via email or chat instead of talking in person?

Maybe he's jealous, maybe he just doesn't like your face, whatever it is. Who
cares, if you have to ask something of him in person just bring your
smartphone and record the conversation and tell him beforehand this way if he
does, you can give it to upper management so they can make a decision.

