
UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps - adventured
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/u-n-says-it-has-credible-reports-that-china-holds-million-uighurs-in-secret-camps-idUSKBN1KV1SU
======
Zaheer
Also happening right now: "China mosque demolition sparks standoff in Ningxia"
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-
china-45140551](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-45140551)

Although this isn't the Uighur population, the Han Muslim population also
faces some level of discrimination.

~~~
jonhendry18
A Christian church in China was demolished by government not long ago for
similar bureaucratic reasons as this mosque. This may not be a case of anti-
Muslim discrimination as more general anti-religious discrimination. (Or anti-
religious group not blessed by the party).

Which is not to say there isn't lots of anti-Muslim/anti-Uighur repression in
China.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Parable of the Leopard:

Once upon a time there was a leopard who returned from hunting to find that
his cub had been killed.

He went and asked the baboon “Tell me who killed my cub for I must visit
terrible vengeance upon them.“

The baboon replied, “It was the elephants”, whereupon the leopard exclaimed
“Surely, you lie, it was the goats.”

Immediately afterward, the leopard went out and slaughtered a great many goats
to avenge the death of his cub.

———

The tech companies will eloquently criticize the governments of the West
concerning human rights secure in the knowledge that no real consequences will
come of their criticism. However, the Chinese government is too powerful and
the Chinese market too lucrative for tech companies to seriously criticize the
Chinese government and risk getting banned in China.

~~~
skybrian
It seems that by using this analogy that you're making a fairness argument
that China should be criticized more, because they're worse, and Western
governments shouldn't be criticized, because they're innocent.

But that doesn't make sense. In the US, for example, when injustice happens,
it's possible to fight it in court. No guarantees, but it can be quite
effective. Getting attention in the press is sometimes useful too.

Taking advantage of available opportunities to make things better is not
"unfair". It's just smart.

~~~
Steltek
That's not how I read that comment at all. RcouF1uZ4gsC is saying that
companies are cowards. Speaking out only when it's safe or beneficial for them
to do so. "Heartfelt beliefs" as marketing tools.

~~~
skybrian
"Speaking out only when it's safe or beneficial for them to do so."

You say that like it was a bad thing.

I'm not sure what "coward" even means when applied to a large organization
that has a duty to keep its employees safe. Is hiring _someone else_ to take
the risk brave?

------
shiburizu
I really do think in a few years this will be in the history books as the next
chapter of the history of internment camps established by despots throughout
the years, next to south America and eastern Europe.

I really fear for what we may find out about 10 years after it's said and done
and we'll all reflect on how surely this wasn't so crazy when we heard about
it in the press.

~~~
aembleton
Also North Korea

------
eyeareque
I met someone who was from China say that these people in these camps are
being “harmonized”.

It’s interesting how things can be perceived when the government controls the
media.

~~~
eeeuo
From a purely Orwellian standpoint, I think the Russian model of
government/media interaction is more effective.

There is "freedom of press" in Russia, and there are opposition media groups,
but they are toothless. Journalists that publish scoops on high-level Russian
government figure are in serious danger. Therefore, the opposition media
produces watered down, safer takes. This allows state media to refute the
opposition points step by step, so that the next time the argument is made,
the viewer feels that it has already been addressed.

Contrast this with media blackouts like in North Korea. While NK's propaganda
is extremely effective at training their population not to believe foreign
accounts, they have a serious problem when it comes to South Korean
movies/TV/music. NK citizens are fed the narrative about dire conditions in SK
their entire lives. When they begin watching smuggled SK media, they realize
that SK is in a much better economic place than them. This results in a
serious erosion of trust towards the NK government, which is evident in the
number of NK refugees who point at SK entertainment as being the impetus for
their escape. This seems ridiculous on the face of it, but makes sense in
light of how it results in a breakdown of belief towards the NK government.

If, instead, the NK government accurately portrayed what life looks like in
SK, but provided reasons and justifications for the difference, they would not
have this problem. There would not be the cold water shock when citizens saw a
SK movie for the first time and realized that their world was a lie.

You also see this type of thing with $POLITICAL_PARTY's big social media
personalities. They take a watered-down, strawman version of the other side's
argument and refute it. When their followers see the real version of the
argument elsewhere, they are primed to disregard it, and they roll their eyes
and laugh and move on. Whereas, if they saw the argument and it was novel to
them, they would be much more inclined to read and consider it on merit.

I've worked with Chinese students who are studying abroad who slowly begin to
lose belief in their government when living outside of China. It is not the
hardcore, biting Western anti-Chinese propaganda that makes them lose their
trust, but the day-to-day life of living in a place where there is
substantially less corruption, genuine freedom of the press, and information
is much more open.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
> If, instead, the NK government accurately portrayed what life looks like in
> SK, but provided reasons and justifications for the difference, they would
> not have this problem.

I think they still would. People (at least some) would look at the difference,
look at the alleged justification for the difference, and think that the
justification was bunk.

------
394549
> A U.N. human rights panel said on Friday that it had received many credible
> reports that 1 million ethnic Uighurs in China are held in what resembles a
> “massive internment camp that is shrouded in secrecy”.

> Gay McDougall, a member of the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial
> Discrimination, cited estimates that another 2 million Uighurs and Muslim
> minorities are forced into so-called “political camps for indoctrination”.

One million in a single camp? Is that right? I always got the impression that
the camps were smaller and more distributed.

If true, someone needs to publish the coordinates of the camp, there's no way
such a thing could be hidden from satellites.

~~~
oh_sigh
A million people probably have at least 10x more relatives and friends on the
outside. Ways of breaching the great firewall are well known even within
China. Shouldn't there be...numerous reports of missing persons if this is the
case?

~~~
anoncoward111
That's what I was thinking too. Westerners visit Xinjiang province with
cameras. If 1m people disappeared, I'm sure someone would come up to a
Westerner to tell their story.

40,000 people were disappeared en masse in Chile by Pinochet. That story made
it out very quickly, and only a few photographs exist of it

~~~
394549
> That's what I was thinking too. Westerners visit Xinjiang province with
> cameras. If 1m people disappeared, I'm sure someone would come up to a
> Westerner to tell their story.

China isn't a western country, and I don't think you can count on being
granted western-levels of freedom of movement there, especially in "sensitive"
areas. For instance, I understand you need a special permit to visit Tibet,
which is another province with similar ethnic tensions.

The level of surveillance in Xinjiang is so intense that the locals will often
get questioned by the police about contacts with foreigners (e.g. getting a
phone or skype call from abroad). The locals probably aren't eager to talk to
foreigners about sensitive topics because they fear reprisal.

China also has special visas for journalists, and something tells me that that
they'll deny the application if your itinerary includes areas where they don't
want people poking around. If you're applying for a tourist visa, in some
cases (like if you work for a newspaper) it's advised that you promise that
you'll not engage in journalism during your trip. I'm guessing the Chinese
will interpret a bunch of foreigners poking around sensitive areas with
cameras as people practicing unauthorized journalism, put a stop to it, and
maybe even deport those people for visa violations.

~~~
anoncoward111
Go on youtube and instagram and check out all of the normal white dudes
posting content from Xinjiang.

~~~
394549
> Go on youtube and instagram and check out all of the normal white dudes
> posting content from Xinjiang.

Are they poking around, looking for evidence of mass detentions? Or are they
complaining about how they "spent more time being frustrated, bored, and
whinging about lost funds than actually enjoying ourselves"
([https://www.lostwithpurpose.com/why-we-didnt-like-
traveling-...](https://www.lostwithpurpose.com/why-we-didnt-like-traveling-in-
xinjiang-china/))?

~~~
darpa_escapee
For all of his dismay at the population for being distrustful towards
foreigners, it's probably for a good reason.

People disappear if they talk to foreign journalists and nosy travellers with
cameras and western ideals.

------
hnaccy
Wonder which camp Rose Pak's kidney came from.

~~~
darpa_escapee
As of 2016, there were 4,080 registered organ donors in China, that number was
less than 100 ten years prior. Yet, for going on two decades, tens of
thousands of organ transplant operations are performed in China each year.
Many of the operations were performed on foreigners, as China could come up
with cheap organs at a faster pace than waiting for a compatible match with
someone on a list.

China has a history of harvesting organs from religious and political
prisoners[1].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China)

------
a0-prw
That's not what the report says, at least in the parts quoted in the article:
"(China) has changed the Uighur autonomous region into something that
resembles a massive internship camp that is shrouded in secrecy".

There is a difference between "secret camps" and an autonomous region that
"resembles an [...] internship camp"

------
selimthegrim
What good is this higher than the Himalayas friendship if the Pakistan Foreign
Office can’t see over them?

------
vfulco2
Decentral.ized block chain for information can't come fast enough

~~~
cyphunk
what?

------
jhanschoo
This crime against humanity deserves all the attention it can get. State-
sponsored oppression like this is only a stone's throw away from genocide.

------
creaghpatr
According to Google.cn, this is a debunked conspiracy theory /s

~~~
notbeevil1
Google is still forbidden in China. So where does the news come from?

~~~
rge4seesr
Woooosh

~~~
dang
Please don't do this here.

