
Why I Moved from San Francisco to Paris and joined Alan - kkwteh
https://medium.com/@kkwteh/why-i-moved-from-san-francisco-to-paris-and-joined-the-engineering-team-at-alan-b2d739cd2d9f
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dannykwells
Articles like this are becoming so common - yes, we get it, everyone in the
bay wants to leave. And some people do and they're always happier. And yet, a
lot of people don't, and my feeling is, they make that decision rationally as
well.

I'd be much more interested in stories of people, who despite the terrors of
SF (and despite not being rich/a founder) decide to stay and a build a life
and family there. I feel like those stories are much less common and more
interesting.

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geebee
These articles are kind of fascinating to me. I'm in my late 40s and grew up
in SF, and I'm raising my kids here. The change in SF and how it is perceived
is stunning.

SF used the be the place you moved _to_ when you were tired of the careerism
of New York, Los Angeles, hell, maybe even Paris. In recent years, it has
become the place people move _from_. I actually think some people might
actually move from SF to NY because they're _tired_ of the rat race and want
to drop out of it, not because they want to join it.

As for Paris, well, nobody needs an excuse to want to move to Paris.

A couple of minor points:

"San Francisco never felt like home, a place to put down roots. Everyone I
knew came from somewhere else, and no one was planning on staying around for
long. Most people worked in tech, and they were too busy with their careers to
have time to build real relationships with anyone else. As for housing, even
with a good tech salary, I still felt like home prices in the area were way
too high for me to ever contemplate buying a place of my own."

If you'd stayed, you wouldn't have felt this way forever. I have a friend who
commented about this. He said that when he moved to SF, he wondered who was
actually from SF. The longer he stayed, the higher the percentage of people he
knew who had grown up in SF or nearby. Having kids and raising them here
increases it even more.

I can't say you needed to try harder to stay, because housing is nuts here and
it is very rational to decide not to bother, even if they can afford too stay.
I _have_ , ahem, seen people claim they are priced out of SF who turn their
nose up at my south-of-280 neighborhood. But even there, you'd have trouble
getting in for much under a mil. So at this point, yeah, I pretty much have
total understanding for people who feel this way, though a small part of me
still wonders if you didn't meet people outside of tech, including the people
who grew up here, because you made a choice not to leave that bubble.

"Being an immigrant in France has also been a much more pleasant experience
compared to the US." I've heard this. I mean this as a genuine question, since
I don't know much about it, but... do you think this would be the case if you
were an unskilled, low income immigrant, not from Canada or other prosperous
country?

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kkwteh
I'm the writer.

I have no doubt that I wouldn't be treated as kindly if I weren't skilled and
educated. However they _do_ treat me pretty well here. In the US all of the
immigration officials I have to interact with seem to be getting more and more
hostile. Markedly so since Trump was elected.

~~~
1024core
As an immigrant myself, I can concur. The USCIS (and its predecessor, INS) and
the CBP are filled with jerks and bullies. It's like they have watched some
movie about how everyone in this world is out to get America, and they're the
last line of defense. No, you idiot; you're just stamping a passport based on
what the computer tells you.

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weinr0ck
I rarely chime in but I have to give warning about moving to Paris. Although
I'm a huge francophile, and so is my wife, it can be not quite as easy for
some to make a living there.

\- To start, your salary isn't going to be what you think. When I moved to
Paris in 2011 I made $100,000 in NY. My new job in Paris was 42,000 (euros) a
year. So right off the bat you're probably going to be budgeting more. Plus,
my wife didn't have the right to work. I believe Macron is changing that, but
it doesn't mean it won't go back.

\- You'll still have to pay Federal taxes if you're a US citizen. I was able
to contact H&R block from Paris and sent them ALL my paystubs in order to
prove that I had paid French taxes. It didn't matter, I still had to pay in a
small some for federal taxes. You'll be double taxed US/FR.

\- There's a 3 month trial period where the company can fire you for any
reason and simply state "We don't feel you're a good fit." Sound familiar?
This trial period can even be extended for up to 9 months. Once the company
feels like actually hiring you, that's when you get your CDI (Contract
Duration Indeterminée). Then you pretty much have to do either something
illegal or absolutely nothing to get fired. Both of which take time and
evidence that the company has to prepare (can take up to a year).

\- There's a 3 month period to quit!! In order to balance the CDI, companies
have the right to sue you for "lost productivity" if you quit without giving a
3 month notice. Don't think you're safe if you scurry back to the States. I
read a blog (not sure how truthful it was), but they found her and sued her
from Paris.

\- If you are in your trial period it's especially hard to start a bank
account, rent an apartment, etc. You're considered too much of a risk.

\- If you have an accent you'll be treated like a tourist. I had a visa, carte
vital, and bank account, but it takes a long, long, long time to make actual
french friends. My wife and I made friends with other immigrants, mostly
British, Irish, and other Americans. People say on average it takes 3-5 years
to become someones friend (if they're french). Once you've made a french
friend, loyalty is expected, and you'll ruin everything by being flaky.

\- You have to play the 'game'. What's the 'game'? The art of conversation. So
if it's difficult to get a bank account in your trial period, how did I manage
to do it? I tried 3 different branches at Paribas and finally found one where
the guy was willing to listen. Turns out he had traveled quite a bit himself.
So what did I do with my bad attitude of being denied twice before hime?
NOTHING! My reply "Oh thank you so much, you're really helping me out." Also,
if you don't want a burned baguette, walk through the door of the bakery and
say "Bonjour." When you're done, you say "Au revoir." If you don't you've
broken protocol, this activity shall be logged, and the baker shall and will
use it against you later.

Those are things to watch, here are the benefits of living in france.

\- Personally, I love the language.

\- Healthcare, healthcare, healthcare. Oh and did I mention healthcare. I have
very conservative parents who constantly say "I don't want the government
choosing which doctor I go to." This couldn't be further from the truth. I got
really sick in france, and you will probably too. The germs are different and
your body isn't used to them. I Went to a clinic and just like the good ol' US
I thought "This doc doesn't have a clue nor does he care." Then, guess what, I
went to another doctor and she was amazing! Got the right meds and got 100%
better.

\- The food! Most of the time companies give you coupons so you can go get a
hot lunch from most restaurants at a discount.

\- The infrastructure. Don't like traffic? Neither do the french. The metro is
amazing.

\- Work life balance. It's actually a law that you're NOT required to answer
emails over the weekend. Everyone takes the month of August off (it's a little
more nuanced than that, but it's normal).

\- People hang out in the park. Didn't know how awesome that would be until I
started doing it.

All in all I stayed with my wife in Paris for 1 year. Without her having the
right to work it was just too hard to save any money. So we moved back. Given
the chance to move back to France, I would in a heartbeat. However, maybe not
Paris, maybe more like Montpellier. If anyone has any questions about my
experience, feel free to reach out.

~~~
kkwteh
Author here.

My salary in Paris is definitely quite a bit lower than what it was in San
Francisco, but I think the lower cost of health care, child care, education
and housing largely make up for it. In particular, I feel much less exposed in
terms of negative tail events. I'm much less worried about a chronic medical
condition or college to wipe me or my future family out financially.

Totally agree about language, healthcare, food, metro, and work-life balance.
There are some things money can't buy.

~~~
dmode
I never worked in France, but worked in other countries in Europe. There is
always an insider vs. outsider feeling when I used to work as a foreigner,
especially not knowing the language. How is that in Paris ? I assume it takes
a while to learn the language. Does it present barrier in workplace ? Do you
feel assimilated in the workforce ?

~~~
kkwteh
It's not too much of a barrier since everyone speaks English in the office.
Generally everyone gets along pretty well in the office, English and French
speakers alike.

