
First China-U.K. Freight Train Departs as Xi Seeks to Lift Trade - caf
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-03/china-starts-freight-train-to-london-as-xi-promotes-trade-ties
======
jakozaur
Some more detail articles about current China <-> Europe regular train
connection (actually it goes weekly to Poland):
[http://postandparcel.info/56547/news/innovation/dhl-
launches...](http://postandparcel.info/56547/news/innovation/dhl-launches-
weekly-train-link-from-china-to-poland/)

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/06/28/what-
the-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/06/28/what-the-newly-
branded-china-europe-silk-road-trains-really-mean/#22e225e1d852)

It make sense for goods that sending them by air is too expensive, but they
are too time sensitive to send them by ship. It takes a day by plane, 14 days
by train, 45 days by the ship. I would expect in good scenario that train
would be somewhat similar popular as air, but nowhere near close volume as by
sea.

~~~
jakozaur
Some price estimates: (very crude, but shows magnitude of price)

Rail is 4 times more expensive than by sea. Air is at least 6 times more
expensive than rail, but can be even 18 times more expensive if payload is
heavy.

Cost of shipping 40′ HC container:

\- by sea: $1,600

\- by train: $6,800

\- by air, light, so you pay for volume: 4.6 USD / kg, 40 ft got volume 67.7
m3 * 143 kg / m3 ~= 9 tons, $41,400

\- by air, heavy, so you pay for real weight: 4.6 USD / kg, 40tf can be
27tons, $124,200

Shanghai <-> Gdynia, Poland:
[http://www.transportchiny.pl/ceny_transportu_z_chin.php](http://www.transportchiny.pl/ceny_transportu_z_chin.php)

Shanghai <–> Małaszewicze, Poland [http://gocargo.pl/czy-transport-koleja-z-
chin-jest-oplacalny...](http://gocargo.pl/czy-transport-koleja-z-chin-jest-
oplacalny/)

By Air: [http://www.chinaimportal.com/blog/air-freight-import-
china-g...](http://www.chinaimportal.com/blog/air-freight-import-china-guide/)

Container:
[https://www.searates.com/reference/equipment/3/](https://www.searates.com/reference/equipment/3/)

Excuse me for non-English links, but that was the easiest what I can find.

~~~
SixSigma
Pollution

\- Air cargo - 0.8063 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile

\- Truck - 0.1693 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile

\- Train - 0.1048 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile

\- Sea freight - 0.0403 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile

So I see this competing with air freight, not sea.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_transp...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_transport)

~~~
willyt
But the ship route China <-> London is a lot more miles than the train.

~~~
torrent-of-ions
I would have thought so too, but I'm not sure. Does anyone have any figures on
this?

~~~
novaleaf
no figures, but there is the northern route (north of russia) so getting to
europe via sea is pretty direct. Thank global warming for that!

[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/oct/05/melting-...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/oct/05/melting-
arctic-ice-supertankers)

~~~
tw04
> the northern route could gradually be opened for four to six months a year

*There's a northern route that is only open for a portion of the year.

------
samhamilton
I would guess that this is rolling out just for the PR, the sheer number of
trains needed to replace one decent sized container ship just makes this all
prohibitive to ever replace much sea freight plus launching when there is a
glut of container ships floating around as well, which is keeping the price
lower than most ship owners can breakeven. Ok so it's quicker, but it's not
that quick.

The only winners would be the goods owners who are winning form short term
lower prices - is that enough for a long term business?

~~~
martinald
Agreed. I really can't see this being a success for anything more than PR. If
you need it ASAP, you're going to use airfreight. If you don't you're going to
have it by sea. I don't see much of a need for something in between those two
timeframes. Anyone specialised in logistics care to comment if there is an
actual market here?

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
I'm not into logistics, but following this out of curiosity. In Germany this
started in 2008, and didn't make sense to me either. Got aware of it because
the local press covered it. (Sorry for the german links)
[http://www.mopo.de/peking-hamburg-container-express-der-
mons...](http://www.mopo.de/peking-hamburg-container-express-der-monster-zug-
aus-dem-reich-der-mitte-19904260) , [http://www.mopo.de/-trans-eurasia-
express-hier-kommt-der-xxl...](http://www.mopo.de/-trans-eurasia-express-hier-
kommt-der-xxl-zug-aus-china-19627262) Then over the years, it was busisness as
usual, slowly expanding: [http://www.wiwo.de/unternehmen/dienstleister/china-
zug-deuts...](http://www.wiwo.de/unternehmen/dienstleister/china-zug-deutsche-
bahn-halbiert-transportzeit/6613850.html) , [http://www.dbschenker.com/ho-
de/news_media/presse/corporate-...](http://www.dbschenker.com/ho-
de/news_media/presse/corporate-news/aktuelles/2728094/china_zug.html),
[https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article118648469/Neue-
Bahnver...](https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article118648469/Neue-
Bahnverbindung-nach-China-ist-in-Betrieb.html) ,
[https://www.welt.de/regionales/duesseldorf/article126318669/...](https://www.welt.de/regionales/duesseldorf/article126318669/Chinas-
Praesident-kommt-fuer-einen-Zug-nach-Duisburg.html) ,
[http://www.transa.dbschenker.de/log-transa-
de/start/China_Co...](http://www.transa.dbschenker.de/log-transa-
de/start/China_Containerzug.html) ,
[http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/von-westeuropa-nach-
ch...](http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/von-westeuropa-nach-china-die-
rollende-seidenstrasse-1.2454706)
,[https://www.deutschland.de/de/topic/wirtschaft/globalisierun...](https://www.deutschland.de/de/topic/wirtschaft/globalisierung-
welthandel/die-transeurasische-landbruecke)

The gist of all that german garble is that it is about twice the speed of sea
freight, measured "door to door", while costing only half as much as air
freight, but twice that of sea freight. co² emission is calculated as half of
that of sea freight, and 25 times less than air freight. In 2016 they shipped
somewhat over 40.000 containers in about 400 trains, which carry about 50
containers per train.

The NYT covered this in 2013 with an interactive feature:
[http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2013/07/21/silk-
road/](http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2013/07/21/silk-road/)
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/business/global/hauling-
ne...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/business/global/hauling-new-treasure-
along-the-silk-road.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

hth

almost forgotten: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-
Eurasia_Logistics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Eurasia_Logistics)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chongqing-Xinjiang-
Europe_Rail...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chongqing-Xinjiang-
Europe_Railway)

~~~
dx034
That would mean that airfreight is only 4 times as expensive as shipping? I'd
expect it to be at least a magnitude more expensive, if not more.

I guess half as much as airfreight means that it's still considerably more
expensive than shipping. But for 14 days vs 30-45 days it might well be worth
it.

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
That depends on the shipped goods, i think? One calculation was that of a 15
inch notebook at 2kg weight, they wrote: 28 days per ship, at 2,50 € and 184
kg co². By air 3 to 4 days at 23 € and 4950 kg co² emission. By train 17 to 18
days at 5,50 € and 270 kg co². But that is for a laptop, packaged in a
specific volume with that weight. They also ship tires, automobile parts,
shoes, clothing, textiles, whatnot.... in both directions btw. BMW ships parts
from .de to .cn

~~~
dx034
Yep, air freight is generally by weight, shipping by volume. Electronics are
already sent via air, saving $3 shipping on a $1500 item doesn't make much
sense. Taking the UK as an example, 70% of non-EU exports by value go via
Heathrow. Would expect the value to be similar for China. By volume it's
probably low single digits for airfreight, by value likely >50%.

Low value items and very heavy items are currently not viable via airfreight,
that's probably where trains can be profitable. If you produce clothes your
only options are to either do so in Europe (there's a lot of production in
Turkey) and have it close by, or produce in Asia and wait 40 days for every
order. Cutting that time for a premium could make a lot of economic sense.

~~~
goatforce5
Yes, I was thinking this would be useful for fashion.

If you suddenly find a particular style/colour of item is popular and selling
out it might make sense to get more items shipped via train and have them
arrive in 2 weeks.

If you have to put it on a boat and wait 6 weeks you may have missed your
chance to sell that item (e.g., people are moving on from summer to autumn
clothing, etc.).

------
ptaipale
Round-trip 4 weeks is OK; it will be interesting to see the packet loss rate
in this service.

The roads around here (Helsinki, Finland) used to be congested by trailer
trucks transporting new Japanese cars from the harbour in Hanko across border
to St. Petersburg.

Bothered by the flow of trucks, I asked why didn't they send the cars across
from Japan over Trans-Siberian railway? I was told that too many cars
disappeared on the way. In fact, sometimes a whole train disappeared.

Now Russia has built a suitable harbour of its own closer to St. Petersburg so
that the flow of new cars doesn't need to come to the ringroads of Helsinki
(and, I expect, the economic situation means fewer cars are sold there).

------
brunnsbe
China, Poland, Germany, Belgium and France uses the standard gauge of 1,435mm
but Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan has 1520mm. I guess they are shifting
wagons at the borders of China and Kazakhstan and Belarus and Poland. Or are
the wagons mixed-gauge?

~~~
paradite
Quick wikipedia yields this:

 _It has been reported that, for example, when containers are shipped by a
"direct train" from China to Europe, it is only containers, and not the
railcars, which move from China's railway network to that of Kazakhstan. At
the border station at Khorgos, two trains (the Chinese standard-gauge one and
the Kazakh Russian-gauge one) would stand side by side at parallel tracks,
while the cranes would move the containers from one train to the other in as
short time as 47 minutes._

\- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-of-
gauge#Containerisatio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-of-
gauge#Containerisation)

 _A break of gauge needs to be crossed when entering Mongolia from China (or
Russia directly from China, if traveling via Manzhouli /Zabaykalsk), and then
another one when leaving Belarus for Poland._

\- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-
Eurasia_Logistics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Eurasia_Logistics)

------
zhte415
This is about opening up Central Asia to China soft power. Rail is the only
means Central Asia going to trade (export/import) anything, and strengthens
China's West, Xinjiang, etc.

~~~
niftich
This, and other geopolitical implications. The 'New Silk Road' effort has been
China's focus for a while, and envisions two corridors along which overland
trade can flow: the _status quo_ through Russia, and an alternate one to the
south that avoids Russia and remains resilient should their partnership sour.

------
omegaworks
Awesome. Brings us all closer together. Alternate transportation systems for
the win. Probably a good hedge against Suez Canal issues and Souh China Sea
contention.

------
ChuckMcM
While 200 containers is not much compared to a container ship it is sufficient
to carry all of the material for a Combat Brigade :-)

More seriously though, it seems like an awesome rail trip if you can convince
them to pull your private rail car.

~~~
stuaxo
You can already travel from China to London (or more likely in reverse) by
train with a few changes, it's definitely worthwhile.

~~~
paradite
Interesting. How do you go about buying tickets for such trips?

~~~
joemclo
I highly recommend looking through this site which extensively covers travel
by train. [http://www.seat61.com/](http://www.seat61.com/)

I've travelled by rail through Russia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan.
It's not always easy to buy (cheap) tickets online or in advance outside of
Russia but it's worth taking the risk and buying in-country for the experience
of the 3 + day journeys

------
lispm
Duisburg/Germany now has eight (!) trains per week from China.

[http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-07/23/c_135534991.htm](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-07/23/c_135534991.htm)

------
_Codemonkeyism
This has been going on with Germany for quite some time now (years) and is
expanding in Germany, so it seems to work. I also found it interesting though
more goods are shipped from China, a significant amount of goods is shipped to
China.

------
MengerSponge
Does anyone know how the train compares to ships wrt CO2/kg shipped? I'm sure
the train comes out on top, but by how much?

Also, how frequently could one of those trains run?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Not sure about CO2 impact, but one problem is that these trains are running
pretty empty back to china (china doesn't want to import so much from Europe
by rail). I think they are running 50 trains a year, with a heavy subsidy to
make it affordable (half the cost).

~~~
corobo
Do the freight ships do the same? What do they bring back with them?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Good question. I know freight charges are cheaper going to china than coming
from china, so I guess there is a demand mismatch.

------
mtw
What I found interesting is that it still takes 15 days for a freight train to
do the journey.

With the recent $500 billion plan for high-speed rail network in China, surely
it also makes sense to modernize this Asia<->Europe track? For example
building a dedicated track with standard gauge in Kazakhastan, Russia, or
developing a more powerful locomotive dedicated to this.

------
thedogeye
Ryan from Flexport here. Been trying to sell rail freight from China to the EU
since start of 2016 with no luck. It's too much more expensive than sea
freight and too much slower than air freight. We will keep plugging though
because we think its super cool.

~~~
sfoon
Why drum up business for a dictator led authoritarian government that
suppresses its own people and other countries and pollutes the environment?

------
chiph
The advantage might come if you regard the railcars as a stream of product on
it's way to your warehouse, rather than a single delivery. So high latency,
but the bandwidth is respectable once it starts. :)

------
ksec
Offtopic: How far are we from shortening this trip from 15 days to say, 12 or
10 days?

15 days is half a month. But if this could be shortened to 10 days, it is 3
regular shipment in a month.

For someone like Apple, this could be extremely cost efficient. Rather then
paying the high price to book every single possible fright from China, they
could now do it via train, at least to everywhere in Europe.

~~~
johansch
The article says 18 days and 12000 km.

That's just ~28 km/h on average. I ride my bicycle faster than that :).

~~~
tombone12
That seems like a very low speed while the train is actually in motion,
although apparently[1] american freight trains average around ~40 km/h. I
would guess mostly it is various delays that keeps the average that low, and
it seems most data is just distance/time estimates, not actual averages of
instantaneous speed measurement.

[1] A bit old but fairly indicative as far as I can tell:
[https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/pu...](https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/transportation_statistics_annual_report/2010/html/chapter_02/table_04_33.html)

~~~
johansch
[http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/01/28/why-
china...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/01/28/why-china-europe-
silk-road-rail-transport-is-growing-fast/#626922e7f24b)

However, this article says:

"The exit customs inspection for the Su’Man’Ou trains is done on-location in
the bonded zone. The next time these containers will need to go undergo a
customs inspection will be at the border of the EU, and they will typically
not be opened until they arrive at their destination."

and

"These cargo relays are generally very simple procedures: the incoming train
and the outgoing train are lined up side by side and a crane moves the
containers from one to the other. At Khorgos Gateway, a new junction on the
Silk Road Economic Belt on the border of Kazakhstan and China, this transfer
can be done in just 47 minutes."

------
angelohuang
The new silk road is a decent project, but of course it's not purely for China
to dump it's products abroad. Besides, I believe it's a matter of time before
anti-China sentiment in Europe will be like the American-version propagated by
Trump.

------
zeristor
Although it might be quicker than sea freight, if the frequency is less it
will end up waiting too long to start its journey in the first place.

Speed and frequency are both important, unless you have the liberty to
synchronise.

------
golergka
Such an article without a map and figures? Could modern journalism get any
worse

------
gaius
Who would be a British factory worker? You pay your taxes which the government
immediately spends on infrastructure to help offshore your job!

