
Do Not Disclose Your Salary to Recruiters - jessaustin
http://jacquesmattheij.com/do-not-disclose-your-salary-to-recruiters
======
pandaman
So you don't tell your current salary or requirement or any number, fly to the
interview and get an offer that is half of what you are making. When you
mention that you are making twice of that already your counterpart tells that
they cannot afford you. Happened to me a couple of times. Maybe I am a bit too
dim but I don't see how am I winning here: I miserably (flying nowadays is a
major hassle) spent, at the very least, a day of my life for a matter that
could be resolved in a 10 minutes phone call ("I am not looking for anything
that pays less than $X", "Thank you, we will call you if we decide to
proceed").

Sure, I'd like to get the maximum salary the employer could possibly afford,
as same as the employer would like to pay the minimum salary I could possibly
accept but I just don't see how being the second one to call a number resolves
this. It's like believing that if you put an ask order only if there is
already a bid at that price and vice versa then and only then you will be
extracting the whole value from the market.

The only situation, I can imagine, where this work is when your maximum ask is
below the firm's minimum bid, which, provided that you already have a job and
understand few things about your industry, is very unlikely to happen. Even
people out of college are pretty informed about the market situation as they
talk to their friends who are getting offers too. And, even if this happened,
you just got literally low-balled anyways, you took the lowest bid they could
make!

~~~
jacquesm
You should simply ask for the range up front or state your requirements, if
you don't do that and fly out to an interview without knowing if there is
overlap that's sub-optimal, it also exposes you to the sunk-cost fallacy.

Remember: recruiters approach you, they are technically in the least
favourable position during the negotiations and it will benefit you to keep
them there as long as possible.

Asking them for their 'range' is perfectly ok, if they don't want to provide
you with an answer then it is absolutely fine to wish them good day but to
keep the door open in case they change their mind and wish to part with this
important bit of information you require before you start to invest your
valuable time in the relationship.

~~~
pandaman
>You should simply ask for the range up front or state your requirements, if
you don't do that and fly out to an interview without knowing if there is
overlap that's sub-optimal, it also exposes you to the sunk-cost fallacy.

Have you actually tried that? I have. I have never got a number in reply to
such a question. Usually the recruiter himself does not know neither does the
hiring manager. All salary talks I had were with the CEO/GM/etc. If I refused
to talk with any recruiter/hiring manager who does not have a range I'd never
been employed.

>Remember: recruiters approach you, they are technically in the least
favourable position during the negotiations and it will benefit you to keep
them there as long as possible.

This is the thing I don't understand. The recruiter is still trying to hire me
if I said or have not said my salary requirements. Not saying does not appear
as a strong leverage, in fact, it does not seem like a leverage at all. I ask
straight what I want and am willing to negotiate down for non-monetary perks
and use the scarcity of qualified applicants on the market as a leverage (e.g.
mention other offers I have). I'd love to strengthen my position but I just
don't see what I gain with withholding my requirements.

~~~
jacquesm
You seem to be conflating your requirements with your current salary. Those
are not necessarily the same number, your current salary could be
significantly lower than what you require to jump ship.

~~~
pandaman
Sorry I gave you this impression. I actually give two numbers: the salary that
I already have and the salary which, if offered, I'd accept immediately and
stop any other job search so I am quite aware of difference between two. I see
no harm in disclosing my last salary unless it's against my employment policy.
All it does is saving time and effort for myself. The cases when I am not
asked for salary were when I am referred internally through friends.

------
zak_mc_kracken
I always tell recruiters that my current salary is irrelevant. What's relevant
is what I want my compensation to be in my next job, and I give them that
number.

Same thing when I interview: if the company insists on knowing my current
salary (bit of a red flag already), I lie and I tell them what I expect them
to pay me if they hire me. In the unlikely scenario they will find that I lied
(my current employer should certainly not disclose that information to them),
no big deal walking away, they were most likely going to underpay me anyway.

~~~
tokenadult
_(my current employer should certainly not disclose that information to them)_

I agree with the overall message of your comment. Just for people looking on,
I should make clear that most jurisdictions do not have ANY law that would ban
a company from disclosing truthful, public information about a former
employee, and it would be hard to make a case that disclosing a former
employee's salary (which arguably is not "public" information for most
business corporations) is in any way illegal. A company may or may disclose
that, depending on its own policies. (Most companies don't disclose very much
besides dates of employment, but you can't count on that as a matter of law.)

~~~
walshemj
In the USA in the EU I would argue that pay is personal information within the
meaning of the DPA (Data Protection Act)

~~~
dawson
It's not considered PI by the ICO (Information Commissioner's Office)

~~~
walshemj
Well this is't this place to have that debate :-)

Though the current ICO should be fired (over the employment blacklisting
issue) which if Ed gets it on the 8th I might try and do something about.

Having said that the DPA is prayed in aid by some many organisations when they
don't want to do something that your not got to get called on it.

~~~
dawson
:)

------
late2part
Too often, we think that unless we are perfect compliant unicorns, the company
won't hire us.

Remember this: Recruiters don't hire people, and companies don't hire people.
Hiring managers hire people.

I completely agree with Jacques on this. Tell the recruiters that you won't
disclose your salary until after you receive an offer from them. Tell them
what you'd like your offer to be.

If you are sought after (and you were by the recruiter contacting you) they
will make you an offer without you telling them your current salary.

As a partial compromise, tell them that you don't disclose your salary until
you're further into discussions. That will assuage the dine-and-dash nature of
some screener sourcer recruiters.

~~~
reneherse
I'm just curious, why do you think it is necessary to ever disclose your
current salary at all? It doesn't seem like it would ever provide you with an
advantage.

I prefer a more aggressive approach: after discussing the benefits you bring
to the prospective company, YOU ask what the company's budget is to see if
they're in your ballpark. After the recruiter discloses a number, you can make
a judgement call and negotiate up from there.

This pattern turns the tables on the traditional view of the recruiter-
prospect interaction. Don't be passive; actively shape the direction of the
conversation.

------
ceras
To those who advocate avoiding all salary discussions till post-interview, how
do you filter out companies that will never match your current pay? Just
GlassDoor? What about smaller companies that aren't listed?

I don't want to waste my personal time and 1 vacation day to interview for a
company that didn't have a hope of matching my current compensation.

~~~
thedufer
I recently started asking in response to first contact from a recruiter. "I
can't afford the time to look at positions without compensation expectations
stated" seems to work pretty well. So far that's gotten hard numbers out of
everyone but google, who basically says "as much as it takes".

~~~
minot
> So far that's gotten hard numbers out of everyone but google, who basically
> says "as much as it takes".

Can you elaborate on this conversation a little please? Only if you don't
mind.

~~~
thedufer
I haven't gone through the interview process yet, but when I asked about
salary last time a recruiter called, they said if I made it through the
interview process they're sure they can do what it takes to come up with an
offer that works. Which is basically a non-answer, but given Google's
resources is fairly believable.

------
andrewmutz
I think it is important to distinguish between external and internal
recruiters.

External recruiters are trying to intermediate a hot labor market. From my
experience, many of them are dishonest. They will say anything, including
outright lies, in order to get you to start talking to them, so they can shop
you to another company.

For external recruiters, I would simplify this blog post to just _don 't talk
to external recruiters_. Whether you are hiring for a position, or looking for
a job, don't talk to external recruiters.

Internal recruiters are different. They represent a company. Everything they
say and do is on behalf of a company and they will act accordingly.

For internal recruiters, it's generally fine to answer the question as "this
is my salary requirement". Internal recruiters deal with a lot of candidates
and want to know early on if a candidate is a non-starter for salary reasons.

Also, for internal recruiters, both sides of the negotiation already have a
lot of information. Glassdoor gives you a rough picture of salaries at the
company you are talking to. And glassdoor also gives the internal recruiter a
rough picture of the salaries that your last company offered.

~~~
czep
Dude, internal recruiters are on a 6 month contract, they have no more loyalty
to the company than the water cooler repair man. They get paid to undercut
you. If you reveal your salary to them, it's basically like handing them a
personal check which they will cash in for a week in Tahoe.

As for glassdoor, have you ever posted your salary there? Any of your friends?
Ok let me rephrase: do you think it is a random sample, or could it
potentially be biased?

~~~
akerl_
That's a bold statement. Are you saying that some, a majority, or most of
companies are hiring recruiting staff on 6 month contracts?

I'd be curious to see the underlying data here, because I feel like especially
in the small company / startup space, either no internal recruiting staff
exist (you're being recruited by some manager/engineer who also handles
recruiting for their team) or they're hiring somebody full-time to bring in
talent, on a contract that includes the terms "equity" and "long vesting term"

~~~
czep
I'm trying to counteract what I consider a naive assumption that internal
recruiters are more aligned with your interests or the firm's interests than
are external recruiters. In a startup, yes, you are more likely to be talking
with HMs directly, in which case they probably don't have access to the rigid
job tables and classifications that professional recruiters use. They are also
more able to tailor a job req for a specific candidate so they don't have to
stick to a rigid salary range. At the same time, they also probably have
limited budget to work with, so your ability to negotiate will eventually hit
a wall because they simply can't afford to pay that much.

In medium and large companies, I think that recruiting is largely a revolving
door. They work on contract, they are in it for themselves, and their primary
motivation is to close deals fast and pay you the bare minimum they can to
close the deal.

I merely wish to warn that you shouldn't distinguish internal from external
recruiters. The main point being that in this negotiation, you can't trust
anyone but yourself. Focus on impressing the hell out of whomever makes the
decision, then you can bargain for a better deal.

------
czep
> When asked this question I would suggest you ask the recruiter for his
> budget in return, or to simply state your salary requirement (rather than
> your current salary) instead.

I would argue that even this should be avoided. Salary negotiation is a chess
game that rewards Black. Make them come up with a number, yes it will piss
them off to no end and many recruiters will simply refuse to deal with you.
Know what? That's perfectly fine because there are a hundred other recruiters
who are so eager for a chunk of your salary that they will take a chance to
negotiate with you.

Another reason not to spit out a number is that by not doing so you are making
yourself look like hot shit, rather than a commodity.

What if you went to an open house and the agent said, "so, you like the place,
eh? How much do you want to buy it for?" This would be so ridiculous, nobody
would play that game buying a house yet we do it all the time when negotiating
our salaries.

Be willing to walk away, be polite but firmly defer or deflect any attempt at
making you state the number first. Above all, remember that 5 minutes after
you hang up the phone, another recruiter is going to give you a call.

~~~
scott00
Why does making a salary demand before they make a salary offer put you at a
disadvantage? (Note, this is not rhetorical, if you have a good rationale for
this, I'd really like to understand the reasoning.)

~~~
pkaye
You maybe undervaluing yourself so when you put out a number, the offer will
be anchored around that number.

~~~
scott00
That's not a problem with making a demand before an offer, that's a problem
with making a low demand.

------
newyankee
But how ? What is the appropriate response to be given when a recruiter
presses you for this information and mention that they cannot move forward
without it being given.

I am earning at least 30 % lower than median pay (based on glassdoor
information), more like 11 percentile in my category. I try to quote a figure
that is 20 % higher than what i get in case the recruiter presses me but i
really do not know what is the right way.

~~~
oillio
I tell them that my salary is covered under an NDA and that I cannot disclose
it. I don't mention that the non-disclosure agreement is between me, myself,
and I.

I can't imagine a situation where you would lose a job offer because you
wouldn't disclose your current salary.

~~~
iends
As I understand it, the National Labor Relations Act makes such NDAs
unenforceable (in the USA) and a recruiter could potentially see right through
this.

~~~
deskamess
You can always say you are not sure about enforceability as there are other
provisions in the NDA and you are certainly not going to risk your current job
or getting sued by your current employer over it. Then, in the same breath,
turn it around and ask them if they are asking you to break the NDA because
that is what it sounds like.

------
khorwitz
Employers have more information about salaries than employees. This
information asymmetry can be problematic for employees who aren't savy enough
(or have the time enough..) to find out what a fair-market salary is for their
position. I'm NOT suggesting this is a legislation-level problem, but just
pointing out a frustration that has been voiced by many of my developer
friends (in NYC in particular).

------
kevinSuttle
I was _just_ thinking about this the other day. I'm not currently looking for
a new job, but have friends who are. One of them asked me if I had ever been
asked something like that. Usually, it goes something like this:

Recruiter: "What were you looking for in terms of salary?" Me: "[figure]" R:
"Is that in line with what you're currently making?" EVERYONE EVER: "YES".

What a complete and utter waste of time. Who is going to say no?! They have no
way of (legally) verifying any of your private salary data.

I once had a recruiter try to scare a friend saying he would access his public
tax info. That recruiter should have been arrested.

------
hkon
My favorite hobby, say what I actually want for a salary. The recruiters
always get a "are you kidding?" tone after that. I guess recruiters are used
to juggle the lowest players in the pool.

~~~
randallsquared
I got a lot of this recruiter incredulity when I was looking for work late
last year. It got to where I was talking about salary range at the front of
every call with a new company/recruiter to make sure that we were on the same
page.

~~~
mcv
Incredulity? To me, that has flipped around dramatically recently.

I'm a freelancer, so to me it's the hourly rate that matters. About two years
ago, when recruiters asked for my hourly rate, it always ended up with less
than what I originally asked for. This year, I've noticed that every single
recruiter is very eager to agree with my rate, and my next project marks the
first time I'll make more than my asking rate. Something clearly changed, and
I suspect I may have to increase my asking rate.

------
Nitramp
Not sure how universal this is, but I think many large companies have
compensation systems/plans that are very uniform and don't leave a lot of
negotiation to happen:

[http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-best-tips-for-
negotiating-...](http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-best-tips-for-negotiating-
a-compensation-package-at-Google/answer/Bob-See)

So outside of top ranks, and maybe stock package, it's ok to reveal your
current salary.

~~~
jacquesm
That may be true in some cases but you'd be very surprised at the amount of
discretion and leeway available in case they actually want someone and a
recruiter contacting you is a sign that the hook is baited and that you should
negotiate to your best abilities.

Revealing your current salary is dumb because (1) it blows your negotiation
position to kingdom come and (2) it tells them something they can use against
other candidates as well that are better at negotiations than you.

If you want to believe that all salaries are equal within narrowly defined
bands ask yourself this: who benefits from such an arrangement and what can I
do about it?

~~~
flinty
Unless you want to work for reddit and there is no negotiation :)

~~~
jacquesm
Even if you _really_ want to work for reddit you'll have a cut-off value at
which you no longer want to work for reddit. Otherwise it's not called 'work'
but 'volunteering'.

------
mikecmpbll
Telling someone your currently salary doesn't affect your ability to say "no,
thanks." I consider it a complete irrelevance, unless you're deciding what you
should be paid based on what price people offer you jobs at -- but don't do
that.

------
keithba
They key here is to still state your salary requirements _or_ get the
potential employer's range for this position.

I've been on both sides of this when both sides interview blind, and it's
disappointing far too often.

------
snissn
I'm just curious because I see so much negativity: has anyone had a positive
experience with a tech recruiter?

~~~
fsk
99% are scum, 1% are good. I've received a couple of jobs through headhunters.

I have a rule that works surprisingly well. When a headhunter contacts me, I
search my gmail for past interactions. If I sent them my resume several times
without getting an interview, no response. The more annoying ones get an auto-
archive filter.

If it's someone I haven't heard from before, and the posting is relevant to my
experience, I'll respond.

I treat all headhunters as if they're competent and honest until they give me
evidence to the contrary. Fortunately, the spammy ones make it clear pretty
fast.

One common red flag: The headhunter wants to meet you in person before sending
your resume to the client. I don't waste time on those anymore. All the good
interviews I've gotten through headhunters were from ones that didn't insist
on meeting me in person first.

~~~
walshemj
Interesting why do ou feel that way? A real head-hunter not a fancy name for a
standard recruitment agency employee will want to see who they are sending.

~~~
fsk
That has been my experience. I've gotten better interviews from headhunters
who don't insist on meeting me first.

A lot of the ones who insisted on meeting me are shady body shops, where
they're just looking to build a large candidate pool in case something comes
up later. They also tend to be fishing for leads, asking who my hiring manager
was at former jobs so they can hit them up to sell other candidates.

For the headhunters who insisted on meeting me, they either never sent me on
an interview or sent me on a lot of low-quality interviews.

It's just like a pre-interview screening test anti-correlates with good
interviews/jobs, to the extent that I usually just pass now.

~~~
walshemj
Those arn't head-hunters just lower tier recruitment agencies.

Real head hunters will want to meet candidates - as will serious agencies.

~~~
fsk
How do I tell the difference between a real headhunter and a lower tier
recruitment agency?

~~~
walshemj
Is it a real company like Michel Paige - and reputation in the industry.

~~~
fsk
You mean like Robert Half Technology? They're a big name, and they've
repeatedly wasted my time to the extent that I now refuse to talk with them.

~~~
chrisbennet
Also known as "Robert Half My Rate". :-)

------
ericb
Don't disclose your current salary--agreed.

Recruiters are actually useful for targeting high-salary jobs. Going on
interviews without knowing a ballpark salary range is time intensive, and a
good way to end up settling.

Recruiters know the budget and are highly incentivized in 2 ways: 1-For their
to be a deal, and 2-To not waste their time when no deal is possible. Since
the recruiter also doesn't want the deal to "blow up" they can be counted on
to mainly pass information that they think helps the deal.

With a recruiter, you can easily say "I'm only looking at things that are
170k+, and this is justified because I have n years of experience, and can do
X Y and Z."

Now, the number you give should really be the number you are hunting for, and
you should have a good idea that this is at the generous end of realistic. But
if you're sought-after, you can quickly screen out the "pay-them-peanuts-we-
think-we-are-so-awesome" crowd and their recruiters. And if the interview goes
well, then the recruiter basically will collude with the company that now
really wants you and make sure that they don't make an "insulting offer" so
that their time isn't wasted.

Basically, with the recruiter you can have a conversation that is much tougher
to have with an employer directly beforehand without seeming "interested in
the money only."

~~~
moron4hire
No, I've found recruiters will tell you a lower number than what the company
is actually willing to pay, because they are trying to gauge your reaction and
how steadfast you are to your number. If you bend, then they have a much
faster time filling the position because you already think you're at the
ceiling when you're only at the floor. If you don't bend, then they "go to bat
for you" so they can artificially make you feel like you are special. "I
talked to the company and they said they'd be willing to go a little higher on
someone with your experience."

No, there is no incentive for recruiters to be honest about anything.

~~~
Aissen
Where you're wrong is that most recruiters get a percentage of the yearly
salary in fee. So their cut is bigger if you have a higher salary.

~~~
moron4hire
Their job security is tied to closing rate, though, and the business is very
high turnover. If they can close faster by lying, they can probably make more
_and also_ ensure they keep their job, even if their per-close income is not
as high. Joe who closes 3 candidates at salary X makes a lot more than Sam who
closes 2 candidates at salary X + 10% or Mike who loses his job because he
only closed 1 candidate.

------
spdionis
It's like poker, if you're not willing to risk and don't play aggressively you
have less chances to win. To play aggressively you need to be in an
advantageous position, in our case it means being good, otherwise you just
won't have the necessary leverage to make the game go your way.

------
BSousa
I think there are two options that play in your favour:

a) be honest, but when they ask (and they will) why you are leaving the
current company, say you know they are paying their employees way below market
rate. This allows you to tell the truth, but points out to the recruiter you
will not take you current salary + 5%

b) redirect the question to "While I make X, I'm discussing the move with
other companies and have offers for X+Y". This accomplishes two things, puts a
premium on you (other companies are already interested you) and lets the
recruiter know how much they will have to offer you to accept their offer.

Of course, you need to be ready for the conversation to fall through at this
point, but you should always be ready for that anyway ;)

------
alkonaut
It's funny how the negotiation discussions are always about salary. Most of us
make good money. What I want to know is, how do you negotiate 8 weeks off
every year (paid or unpaid doesn't matter). How do you bring up next years
paternal leave already at the interview? How do you get throgh a negotiation
making sure it is acceptable to work slightly less than the 40 hour week at
times because kids need to be picked up from daycare at 4pm?

~~~
BSousa
You move to Europe? ;)

------
ErrantX
I always tell them my salary plus £5,000. That establishes whether they are in
my ballpark, doesn't give them any useful information, and ensures that if I
do get a job offer my negotiating position is already up on where I am.

So far have managed to negotiate my way to 2.5x my salary from two years ago.

Salary is totally divergent from job, responsibility or title. Salary is
simply the figure negotiated between you and an employer that both of you
consider value.

~~~
jacquesm
Try a 50% increase next time. Think about it: if you managed to get 2.5 times
increase in such a short time you are likely undervaluing yourself
considerably and you should move to larger steps.

~~~
ErrantX
There's a bit of a dearth of executive technical roles within reasonable
commute of me right now. Its not been worth pricing myself out of the market
completely until I can cross the sector boundary (lots of PM roles in
aerospace that look nice...).

Hence; there is a balance, find your value but don't leave yourself without a
second option.

------
digisign
Yes, I learned this back in the day from the classic "ask the headhunter"
series. Since then I've simply stated job/salary requirements to jump-ship and
it hasn't been a problem.

[http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/hasalary.htm](http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/hasalary.htm)

------
kkl
I wonder if this was inspired by the recent #talkpay trend on Twitter.
Announcing your salary on Twitter is not the best idea. It will likely to be
found by a recruiter and then (possibly) used against you in negotiations. I
support the transparency, but I do not know if this trend is in one's best
interests.

------
dreamfactory2
The key question and the only one which counts here is how much revenue you
are going to generate for the prospective employer. From that you should
derive a figure which looks like a great deal for both sides.

------
dmoy
Question here: are the article & all the comments talking about just base
salary, or total comp? If you were to disclose, which number would it be? I
assumed total comp, but now I'm not sure.

------
amyjess
I much prefer "do not talk to recruiters, ever". It's an entire profession
filled with nothing but sleazes.

~~~
tomp
I disagree. I had 2 good experiences with recruiters so far (I'm a developer
in finance in London). In both situations, the recruiters brought two kinds of
value: (1) they knew the companies I would want to work for (not _positions_ ,
_companies_ ) that I wouldn't know about without them (I don't have a good
professional/personal network that would allow me to source this information),
and (2) they put in the hours (talking to employers, arranging interview) that
I didn't want to, because I had a fulltime job.

If you can satisfy both of these yourself (e.g. a student with lots of free
time and friends working at interesting companies), by all means, apply
yourself! Otherwise, use a recruiter (a good external one, I agree that most
are annoying, PM me for recommendations).

------
yalogin
More often than not, the recruiters are acting more shady and so I stopped
talking to them completely.

------
Quanticles
Is there any reason to not just lie about it, and instead tell them the salary
you want?

------
fukupayme55
Sigh - as always, this piece of advice works less well across the pond, where
there is a requirement to honestly state your current salary, which your P45
will be checked against to validate it, especially now we have real time PAYE
requirement.

My advice for the UK based folks is simple - go through an agent, defer all
salary discussions as something "you promised to sort out with the agent", and
then go for the rate you want, and stick with it.

It is hard, but can be done. Remember, most agents will play along with this,
as they are often on a percentage fee basis, so it aligns with their sales-
weasel interests too!

~~~
yardie
Wait, when did the P45 become part of the screening process in the UK. I have
my P45 and the only parties that have asked for it are banks and credit
agencies. If a recruiter asks for a P45 off he bat I'm marking them as spam.

~~~
fukupayme55
Well, if tried a strategy of not telling the new employer direct what your
salary is, or worse, lying, they will quickly see when the P45 is passed onto
their payroll to sort out your P45. Which is why it is better to simply state
you promised the agent that you would discuss the salary with them, and would
then focus on discussing the specific about the role with the employer.

~~~
walshemj
You know you do not have to provide a P45 to your new employer

Just say "sorry I lost it put me on the emergency Tax code"

I Have started jobs with out a p45 and unless you have complex tax status its
not a big deal.

~~~
Flenser
Wouldn't they still be able to work it out when your tax code is corrected?

------
dbg31415
Way too many emotional responses here. Easy solution, when asked anything
about salary just tell the recruiter the number you are looking for. Your past
is largely irrelevant, except occasionally (salary can be used to prove how
senior or junior you were if your job title lacked that status).

Refusing the answer the questions is a dick move, and all they really need to
know is, "Does this candidate fall inside of the parameters set by the hiring
manager?" You answering what you are looking for will achieve that and let you
move on.

