
Elizabeth Holmes representing herself in Arizona civil case - fortran77
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/01/24/theranos-founder-holmes-phones-in-to-court-hearing-solo-after-lawyers-say-she-stiffed-them-report/
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remote_phone
She’s spending her money on the criminal case to keep her out of jail. She is
100% going to file for bankruptcy so she doesn’t care about the civil case.

~~~
manigandham
Does a bankruptcy eliminate a civil judgement? Why wouldn't everyone file and
wipe out their civil case debt then? Seems too easy of a workaround.

~~~
parsimo2010
Bankruptcy can discharge most judgements, but you actually have to be
bankrupt. If you have $190 million and have a judgement against you of $200
million, you don't get to file bankruptcy and discharge the whole thing
because you can't pay the full amount. You'll end up paying most of the
judgement before you are actually bankrupt and can discharge the remaining
amount.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Caveat: Some assets are protected during bankruptcy proceedings, 401ks
federally, IRAs in most states, primary residence up to unlimited value in
Florida.

Not legal advice: if you’re going bankrupt with flush 401ks, IRAs, and a
luxury residence, Florida is not a bad state to do it in.

~~~
ranDOMscripts
Which is why many pro athletes move their residency to Florida the day they
sign their multi-million dollar contracts and buy the biggest mansions they
can afford.

~~~
gdilla
That's the bonus. No state income tax of FL is your primary residence.

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choppaface
What this article (but not others) fails to mention is that these lawyers are
some of the best-paid in Silicon Valley: Cooley LLP. I know an acquisition
where Cooley walked away with more than any employee. Cooley isn’t going to be
missing much.

I’m surprised Cooley would even take her as a client given the criminal case
and her net worth versus the liabilities. I would have thought they’re dump
her years ago. “Lawyers getting stiffed” is a pretty biased headline.
“Vultures discover empty carcass is actually empty” is more accurate.

~~~
Fnoord
David Boies [1] represented Microsoft in Microsoft vs. United States (USG
won), SCO vs IBM (IBM won), he represented Harvey Weinstein, and he
represented Virginia Roberts Giuffre vs Jeffrey Epstein (suspect committed
suicide). He also took part in Bush vs Gore. He represented Oracle in Oracle
vs Google (Google won), and he represented tobacco companies.

I'm not sure if he's still part of Theranos legal team (in whatever way) but
he surely was in the past.

The point is, lawyers don't always end up standing on the right side of
justice. They almost always end up getting on the paid side of the spectrum,
though. Especially if they have a nice curriculum.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Boies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Boies)

~~~
blaser-waffle
To paraphrase a lawyer friend of mine: "you don't represent the man, you don't
represent the act, you represent the principle: everyone has a right to legal
advice."

That taking morally reprehensible clients often pay well is just icing on the
cake.

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mnemonicsloth
I remember reading an argument about Bernie Madoff: he'll spend the rest of
his life in jail, but nobody can take away the 20 years when he was king of
the world.

Holmes got half that. I wonder if they were worth it, or if she spent them
dreading being found out.

~~~
Ididntdothis
I think deep down it’s not enjoyable to be on top while knowing that there is
a very good chance that you will be found out. I think is a very stressful
experience.

~~~
amiga_500
These people are not normal

Imagine you defraud someone of 10 million. Then you think 'no, I want more'. I
cannot put myself in their shoes, but I would like their shoes to go to jail
for a long time.

Financial fraud should be treated like robbery.

~~~
okareaman
1% of people are psychopaths, according to internet surveys. I don't know how
accurate they are, but assuming they are in the ballpark, I can imagine Madoff
doing all of this and sleep good at night if he lacked all empathy.

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foota
I'm not a fan of documentaries, but once this is all over I would definitely
watch one on this. She was so young when she started the company, it's hard to
believe she intended to defraud people from the start. I can't excuse any harm
she caused, but I imagine she just got in over her head and couldn't let it
go.

Edit: read some more about the people involved, sounds like it was worse than
I thought. Sad :(

~~~
sdinsn
> She was so young when she started the company, it's hard to believe she
> intended to defraud people from the start.

Why do you think that young people are immune from doing bad things? From all
accounts, it seems she was a a sociopath.

~~~
tjpnz
Not sure why people are down voting you - based on what's out there she very
likely _is_.

~~~
SamReidHughes
The point is logically disconnected from the question of whether the business
plan at age 19 was to sell fake blood tests.

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watertom
I fully expect that with her superior intellect that she'll deliver value to
her defense the same way she delivered value to her investors and customers.

~~~
dylan604
She'll tell the judge she's doing the work herself, but secretly in the back
rooms will be a full team of lawyers doing the actual hoping nobody actually
looks behind the curtain while raising VC money to support the case.

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bpodgursky
There's no real point in defending yourself in a civil trial if you can't
afford the legal fees to start with (civil trials don't have criminal
penalties -- you'll just pay damages, worst case).

Theory is she probably paid a lump sum for defense for her in criminal trial,
which is absolutely the rational thing to do.

Holmes will, best case, come out of this whole saga bankrupt but free. Whether
you think this is appropriate punishment for defrauding rich investors is up
to you _.

_ yes, there was also over/underdiagnosis in Arizona. That's not the criminal
trial though

~~~
epistasis
> Whether you think this is appropriate punishment for defrauding rich
> investors is up to you.

Since you almost seem to be soliciting an opinion... I think that the
investors also bear a huge amount of the blame for not doing enough due
diligence and investing in a company that was so incredibly mismanaged and
corrupt with cronyism.

Without the ridiculous valuations and lack of oversight by experienced biotech
hand, Holmes would never have been enabled to commit the "fraud" which was
pretty evident to many outsiders after not much time at all.

That an investigative journalist revealed the deception, rather than the board
realizing it and changing course first, is a huge indictment of the investors'
position in our economy of being able to make decisions with hundreds of
millions of dollars at a go.

~~~
ryandrake
Young, female founder, acts like the next Steve Jobs, claimed to have some
kind of miracle technology... It was the perfect story. Every investor, board
member, and media hack had the X-Files “I want to believe” poster hanging on
their wall.

They kind of deserved to get swindled. The patients, not so much...

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LanceH
Has anyone dug through the old HN posts about Theranos? I remember people
being highly skeptical. How close were they?

~~~
stefan_
Ehh, nah:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6349349](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6349349)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9823638](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9823638)

~~~
barrkel
This guy dropped by to lay down the truth:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=medman77](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=medman77)

His one and only comment. I wonder who he was.

~~~
rco8786
That’s actually kind of wild. This person nailed it to a T, and as their only
comment of all time.

~~~
manquer
While hindsight is 20/20, most of their stuff he is talking about was visible
to see , it is just that because VCs were putting money we all thought they
must have done due diligence better than us armchair commentators, same with
Wework .

Ultimately until shit hits the fan, everyone would naturally trust the guy
backing his belief with cash better than anyone else‘s analysis.

If there was market to short startups perhaps it could be different

~~~
dekhn
The VC I worked with at the time definitely did their due diligence, but it
wasn't easy. When Theranos visited their office, they refused to sign an NDA,
which immediately made the VCs suspicious. So they sent an employee to
Walgreens to get the THeranos test and noticed that it included a full blood
draw (when it should have just been the "nanotainer" or whatever). At that
point they believed that Theranos was using their competitor's machines to
implement the tests beause their tech didn't work yet.

~~~
manquer
The ones you worked for defn didn’t put money , I am not sure the ones who did
put money did any due diligence, if they did and knowingly put money they are
no different from homes they were trying scam the next bigger guy then

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Havoc
Bold move. Hope she spent the past year or so brushing up on legal knowledge

~~~
azernik
Not necessarily:

"She told the judge she wouldn’t make any arguments, but would rely on
arguments made by lawyers for the other defendants in the case, Bloomberg
reported Friday, citing an unnamed lawyer said to be present at the
proceedings."

~~~
Havoc
That strikes me as even bolder. Implicit assumption that the argument works
for both people. One small diff in circumstances and then she is lawyerless
and without a Defence

~~~
bloomer
Would not even require difference in circumstances, seems like the other
defendants would be likely to just pin the blame on her if she isn’t going to
defend herself.

~~~
Havoc
oh snap. Good point. As evil as it seems that might just work

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toomuchtodo
Prioritizing staying out of prison over civil judgements you can extinguish in
bankruptcy. Prudent strategy considering constrained resources.

Disclaimer, personal opinion: Holmes should receive life for her actions in
contributing to knowingly providing inaccurate test results people relied on
for medical decisions.

[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/05/theran...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/05/theranos-
elizabeth-holmes-lawsuits-patients-harm-arizona/742008002/)

[https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/health/2017/0...](https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/health/2017/04/18/theranos-
reaches-465-million-settlement-arizona-blood-testing/100582618/)

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ReptileMan
She should be able to squeeze enough money out of the other high profile
poeople in Theranos for her legal fees so not to spill stuff about them.

~~~
ordinaryradical
Are you suggesting she's blackmailing the others involved in the company? Is
there any proof of this?

~~~
Retric
It’s common for multiple groups to be defendants in the same civil suit. So,
any of them can end up paying for the defense of all of them. For example
suing the doctor and hospital for a botched surgery.

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rdc12
The other sad thing about this, is that anyone who comes up with a legitimate
tech along this line, will probably fail to get funding now

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skwb
Let this be a lesson of why it's a bad to let growth get ahead of science.

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lawnchair_larry
I wonder if she is still using the fake voice in court.

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KKKKkkkk1
[deleted]

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AdrianEGraphene
Subverting FDA regulations is the difference.

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AndrewBissell
Wow, who could have predicted that Holmes wouldn't pay her bills?

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ReptileMan
"A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for his client"

~~~
spookthesunset
Pretty much. Look how not listening to lawyers worked for Ross Ulbright or
Hans Reiser. Both suffered from a severe case of Dunning Kruger. Both could
have gotten off much lighter had they shut the fuck up and listened to their
lawyers...

Only super arrogant people or crazy people are dumb enough to ignore their
lawyer or go without.

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xwdv
Holmes is about to learn the limits of what a dewey eyed woman speaking in a
fake baritone voice can do.

Hope she spends the rest of her days in prison for her deception.

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arthurcolle
Did they steal the image captain? Seems a bit dated...

> Elizabeth Holmes dropped out of Stanford in 2003 as a 19-year-old to start
> Theranos, a company now poised to disrupt the medical diagnostic test
> market. She spoke about the company’s vision at their headquarters in Palo
> Alto, Calif., Thursday afternoon July 3, 2014. (Karl Mondon/Bay Area News
> Group)

~~~
tantalor
Steal from themselves? The caption is just copied from their original story
that used that photo.

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bawana
How is what she did different from all the other silicon valley startups that
fail? They get a buttload of money to develop something and then they cannot.
From what I've read, most VCs today dont even expect to make their money off
of an exit or an IPO, rather from their fees-but that's besides the point.

~~~
CamperBob2
Pets.com didn't get anyone killed. There's an excellent chance that Theranos
did.

~~~
ipython
No chance, at least one person did die:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Gibbons_(biochemist)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Gibbons_\(biochemist\))

