
HN Help: I'm lost - lostsheep
I'm posting this with a new nick to hide my identity.  I'm one of the top people (by karma) on HN and if I told you my nick or name you'd probably know me.<p>But I'm totally lost.<p>From the outside you'd be amazed to know that inside I am in terrible turmoil.  You know me because of code I've written, books I've published, and my contributions here.  Perhaps you follow me on Twitter. But I have reached a point in my life where I do not know what to do, or where to turn.<p>I'm in my early 40s, I've worked for start-ups and big companies.  I made a little bit of money in the early 2000s which helped pay off a bit of mortgage.  I have a family that depends on me financially.  And yet I feel I have nothing to show.<p>I don't own my home, I don't have lots of savings, I have a job with a difficult boss.  Because of the hours I work and commuting I barely see my children.  I am utterly unhappy with my life.<p>Where should I turn?  And what would you do?<p>I am tempted to totally change my life and stop working and create something new that will be challenging and interesting.  Create something that I can do from home so that at least I am not a slave to my boss.
======
noonespecial
_“Don’t feel guilty if you don’t know what you want to do with your life. The
most interesting people I know didn’t know at 22 what they wanted to do with
their lives. Some of the most interesting 40-year-olds I know still don’t.”_

First, tell your wife exactly what you've written here. What you're about to
do will scare the snot out of her if she doesn't understand your motivation.

The fact that you've posted something like this just about guarantees you've
already decided to make a major course correction. Many people can work a
lousy job they hate for 4 decades, get a gold watch at the end, and have as
little to show for it at the end as you feel you have now. Looks like you're
not one of them.

I wasn't one of them either. I told my wife almost exactly what you wrote up
there. She asked me why it took so long, she'd know I was like that when she
married me. We sold our house to be free of the mortgage, even though it was a
bad time, moved into a rental and I've been working only on projects that
interest me ever since. It was (is) scary. We've had to reduce our standard of
living, but the days have turned from drudgery to adventure. Even if we end up
living in a van down by the river, it will have been well worth it.

Only you can know whats best for you, but as someone who has walked this path,
I encourage you to follow your heart. Poverty is uncomfortable, but regret is
excruciating.

Edit: I'm serious about the tell your wife part. It instantly transforms her
from hapless dependent (and one more worry on your mind) to co-conspirator and
confidant. I just can't overstate what a difference this made for me.

~~~
physcab
"Poverty is uncomfortable, but regret is excruciating".

I cannot upmod you enough for writing that. It's exactly the kind of feeling
I've been having for the past few years but haven't been able to put it into
words. Sometimes being poor can be one of your largest assets because it makes
you more nimble and forces you to make better decisions--both in startup world
and life outside. But you're right, regret is excruciating. You only get one
chance (as far as I know) at life. You absolutely have to follow your heart.

~~~
ganley
His family might disagree.

~~~
axod
Yeah its one thing to deprive yourself of things, but when you start depriving
your offspring of things, that's tough.

Having a family changes all the goalposts.

~~~
indiejade
Disagree. Comfort breeds complacency. Complacency breeds discontent.

My family was completely nomadic growing up. While it was kind of a constant
uncertain adventure, I see, as an adult, how it made me a better and stronger
person.

Look at people with a small zone of comfort, people who are so incredibly
attached to their physical manifestations of "success" and they are some of
the most unhappy people ever. Living the nomadic existence more or less
teaches people to value their relationships with people over things or those
things that 9-5 drudgery provides.

Besides, children are resilient. I would never trade the memory of the time
with my parents & family -- moving, camping, learning and adapting all over
the freaking place -- for memories of what most adults would call a "stable"
childhood.

~~~
iamwil
I've seen different people react differently to having moved around a lot as a
kid. Some react the way you do. Others like nothing better to just plot down
and settle in some roots when they're adults.

------
fdschoeneman
Aw man, I wish I had answers for you. Your situation reminds me of when I was
in the Army. I had recently left an elite unit, and was working a dull job in
the regular Army. A senior NCO took me under his wing and, sensing that I was
unhappy, asked me what was going on. I hated my job. I hated my situation. I
hated the Army. I hated my living quarters. I felt like I was in prison. I
didn't feel that I was any good at being a soldier.

He told me something interesting, something that has stuck with me. He said
that "...a good man will always be a good soldier; but a good soldier will not
always be a good man. It's more important to be a good man." Or some shit like
that. But it helped me.

Focus on that: Being a good man. Be a good father. Be a good husband. And
don't get all caught up in some kind of false choice: The idea that you can
only a) continue commuting for hours to work for a dickwad boss on a project
you hate or b) stop working. There's probably some middle ground you can find,
that might allow you a shorter commute, a boss who's less of a dick, a project
that's slightly more satisfying.

Just don't be that guy who quits his job to work on his novel and then, six
months later, is waking up at noon with saliva-Cheeto stains on his laptop,
his underwear, and his remote control. Trust me man, I've been there, too.

Namaste,

Fred

~~~
bsaunder
_don't get all caught up in some kind of false choice_

Excellent advice. I think often times when we feel 'stuck' there are a world
of other options we are not considering. If things are truely that bad on all
perspectives, it shouldn't be hard to find a partial solution that improves
them.

~~~
iamwil
I remember reading somewhere that if there are two roads and you can't choose
between them, then they're both wrong.

It's also a form of creativity and problem solving to open up other options
for yourself. The world is more pregnant with possibility than we imagine
until we've seen other people get themselves out of a mess by opening up
options.

------
greyman
I am probably not a typical HN reader, but full-time "normal" employment works
for me. I do software engineering and coding for 8 hours, then I go home,
where I see my child, and there is a paycheck every month.

So the advice I can give is - find another programming job, which is closer to
your home, and chances are your boss will be better. That can solve the
problem with money, boss, and time for your child.

Regarding the more existential questions (meaning of life, etc.), I personally
would not looking for the solution in the work I do.

~~~
duh
> but full-time "normal" employment works for me

Never forget that someone else's ambition is what allows for your relative
stability.

~~~
shimon
That's a cruel way to look at it. If the guy is more interested in spending
time with his family than working, and he's able to find someone who values
his 8 hours enough to provide stable employment, then he's found a working
arrangement that suits his values. As long as he believes in those values --
and isn't just accepting them by societal default -- there's no reason he
should feel guilty.

~~~
duh
> That's a cruel way to look at it.

I'm not trying to be cruel, I'm reminding him that his (salaried) labor is
making someone else wealthy. For those of us who have well developed senses of
self-esteem, this is a wholly unacceptable situation.

~~~
caffeine
Only if your self-esteem is tied to your wealth. That would be a shame.

~~~
duh
My sense of self-esteem is tied to who I allow to take exploit me. Which is
really just a proxy for wealth.

------
noonespecial
I'm posting this as a separate comment, not because I think that it
particularly applies to your situation, but because it is good advice in the
general case.

If you should happen to feel, "I am utterly unhappy with my life" at any time,
it might not hurt to at least darken the door of a trusted mental health
professional just to be sure that there is not a clinical element to your
feelings of malaise as well as circumstantial ones.

Even mild mental illness still carries a certain stigma so its hard to do
sometimes, but we've lost one too many of the good ones, even in this
community, not to take it seriously.

~~~
Schtarflucz
There's also potentially some pride to swallow, but it's badly placed pride in
the first place. The life-prevalence of perfect mental health is near zero.

Gender and race discrimination have mostly been tackled, sexual orientation is
on it's way. Mental disorders will be the next milestone IMO.

All the best to the lost sheep :-)

~~~
azanar
_There's also potentially some pride to swallow, but it's badly placed pride
in the first place. The life-prevalence of perfect mental health is near
zero._

It's not just a matter of pride; for my sake is a certain amount of skepticism
in what all has been pathologized. Regardless of what motives, or who's, you
might believe is a result of this, we seem hasty in pinning on conditions and
prescribing meds. That behaviors may be off the norm seems _a priori_ evidence
that they are bad behaviors, and need to be corrected, and our triggering
deviation from the norm seems to be narrowing. But then, this could be because
I tend to become friends with all of the outliers, and I have a sampling bias.
:-)

I have thought about chatting with one or two mental professionals myself, but
more out of a sense of curiosity than a sense that I need to be chemically
renormalized. I'd like to first figure out what I might potentially be
diagnosed with, and then begin the much more interesting discussion of where
it becomes a problem, and whether it matters as more than just a label I could
potentially exploit for preferential treatment.

~~~
liamk
Clinical psychologist do not prescribe drugs (at least not yet), so your
concerns would only apply with psychiatrists. Clinical psychologists help
individuals tweak the ways they think and behave using "Cognitive Behavioral
Therapy (CBT)", a therapy the author of this post might benefit from.

------
synnik
This sounds a lot like my situation. I think it is more common than people
admit.

I can only tell you what I am doing. I told my wife how I feel. I told my boss
how I feel. Strangely, my boss had a lot more power to improve my situation
than my wife did. Admittedly, he is a good boss. I'm working from home about
one day a week, and I've been able to control more of my projects.

But my wife is 20 weeks pregnant with unexpected twins. So I cannot change
anything right now. I cannot pack up and take risks. I need to maintain my job
no matter how bad it gets, as I need the insurance and the steady paycheck.

Internal acceptance of what you can and cannot control goes a long way to
resolving inner turmoil. I spent a few months dealing with the fact that I
must lower my expectations of my life. I'm not pleased about it, but that is
the way it rolls.

Ultimately, the act that fixed it for me was when I sat down and laid out my
priorities in life. My #1 priority is taking care of my family. I wish I saw
my kids more, too. But they have a stable home. Seeing them more, but being
without a home isn't a good compromise. So I accept the fact that I am stuck
at a job that I don't like, working on technology that I do not like, and
getting farther behind the curve on new technologies, so it is even harder to
move elsewhere. But -- my kids are cared for. My wife is cared for.

I just had to accept that my self-identity needs to change into "Dad", not
"technology expert who happens to have a family".

It is hard, yes, believe me, I know.

And if you can change it, I'll cheer you on.

But if you cannot change it, for your own sanity, embrace it.

~~~
caffeine
_I just had to accept that my self-identity needs to change_

You're a brave guy, that takes guts.

------
ganley
Firstly, I'm sorry you feel this way, and I hope the rest of this doesn't
sound unsympathetic.

Do not stop working. That might be the answer for single, childless people,
but not to put too fine a point on it, you have greater responsibilities than
your own happiness.

Further, you have to consider the possibility that the problem isn't your job,
it's you. The many suggestions to see a therapist are good ones.

Make small changes toward what you think might help, that do not disrupt your
family too badly. Get a 40 hour a week job closer to home. Spend more time
with your family and friends. Try on some hobbies. Find activities that you
find rewarding that aren't tied to your job.

Finally, it's common for people our age to have a mortgage and not a lot of
savings. I'm in the same situation, as I suspect the majority of people in
their early 40's are.

Good luck.

~~~
SwellJoe
This is an excellent counter-point. I've known a lot of folks who have been
unhappy, even after having changed jobs, changed fields of work, gone back to
school, started companies, etc.

Depression _can_ be a physical malady, rather than merely an emotional
response to your current situation, and if it is, then altering your lifestyle
might not help; physical ailments, including long-term depression, generally
need medical attention. One way to possibly self-diagnose whether this is the
case is if you feel trapped and wanting to escape to anywhere else, or if you
feel hopeful and excited (even if a little uncertain) by the thought of doing
something else. Surprisingly, there hasn't been much talk of it in this
thread, but this feeling is common enough to have a name: Mid-life crisis.
You're not abnormal for looking around when you reach your late 30s or 40s and
wondering, "WTF? How did I get here?" But, you're lucky enough to be
introspective enough to consider the causes and solutions with care, and
respond to them intellectually rather than childishly by buying a sports car,
cheating on your wife with a teenager, damaging your family with irresponsible
behavior, and trying to be cool like you were when you were 20.

Anyway, I'm not saying the advice in all the other comments aren't right, and
that you shouldn't change jobs, start a company, give the finger to the
establishment, etc. I _am_ saying that you should do so only if that is
actually what you want, and not merely jumping out of the frying pan and into
the fire. I am of the opinion that entrepreneurship and being ones own boss is
a more fulfilling lifestyle than most others I can think of, but I'm pretty
sure it's not for everyone. The risk and stress is much higher, the discomfort
level in the early days (which sometimes take years; I'm three years into my
current company, and it's just _now_ starting to make me a decent living; it
took five with my previous company) can be too much for folks accustomed to
being able to buy new things (like clothes, TVs, entertainment, cars, etc.)
with regularity. But, if it's what you've always known you wanted to do, but
never did, then maybe this little bout of feeling lost will be enough to send
you in the right direction.

------
jacquesm
Every five or six years or so I purposefully turn my whole life upside-down,
just to avoid the chances of getting stuck in a rut.

It's not for everybody, it almost certainly will mess up your chances with
'striking it rich' because inevitably you'll be starting from 0 up again. I've
been _very_ lucky in always having the backing of those around me whenever I
do this.

~~~
hyperbovine
I assume you do not have a family...

~~~
jhancock
I'm married and have a 5 year old son. When I finally settled into a family,
some aspects changed but I had already been living life as an entrepreneur for
close to 20 years and my wife accepts and supports this. My family is healthy
and happy and we are not worried about paying bills.

------
patio11
I'll just throw this out there: if I were utterly unhappy with my life and had
no clue who to turn to, I'd ask my priest if I could bend his ear for a few
minutes. They're typically good listeners, they've heard worse problems than
yours, and you really can't beat the NDA.

~~~
mechanical_fish
This is fine advice. I would only note that it also applies to many other
people in the world whose job description is isomorphic to "priest".

~~~
pmsaue0
Agree. The thing about talking to a talk-therapist / counselor / psychologist
/ priest... is that they are outside of your world, they don't know all the
drama and back-story, and when you talk to them you are in a way outside of
your everyday world, able to look in upon it from the outside and perhaps see
things differently, more clearly (hopefully). Sometimes our personal drama and
back-story and life-scaffolding is what gets in the way.

------
mechanical_fish
Don't have time to read all the fine responses. Let me risk redundancy, then:

+1, "talk to your wife". +1, "talk to other people as well, like a therapist,
a priest, or a career counselor".

Don't try to solve all your problems at once. "I hate my current job", "I have
no savings", "I barely see my children", "I think I want to work for myself",
and "I want to create something new/challenging/interesting" are all separate
problems, and the odds are _really, really poor_ that you can solve them all
at once, particularly when you add in the too-vital-to-mention underlying
goals, like "my kids deserve to eat".

I'm not you, but if I were I'd work on the "get a different job", "see more of
my kids", and/or "get some savings" problems first. Work on your expenses.
Life sure does look better when your expenses are smaller than your income.

Reading between the lines of your post, it sounds like you may already know
this far too well, but for the benefit of others: "I don't own my home" is not
a sign of dishonor. Don't be in a rush to own a home. Most of the people who
bought homes four or five years ago are now underwater; many have been
foreclosed on. That process is not over -- many mortgages will reset their
rates over the next few years, creating more foreclosures and prolonging the
glut of inventory. Thus, though the market is apparently better than it was
last year, and we may even be approaching the point in some markets where the
rent-vs-mortgage calculation is approaching parity again, homes are still
rather illiquid, which is another way of saying "your home may make it
difficult to change jobs or reduce expenses, because they can be hard to sell
when you want to sell them, especially if you can't afford to take a loss."

------
tezza
Hi Lost Sheep,

1\. It is okay to feel rotten, isolated

Feeling glum and lost is part of life, and you should not add to it by
presuming that you are some freak because you are experiencing these things.
Life sucks sometimes and you may feel low when everything on paper says you
should be happy.

2\. Trusted Friends

No one is laughing at you, or looking down at how successful they have been
compared to you. Seek counsel from trusted friends, and if they urge you to
seek professional help... please do so.

3\. Definition of Success

In your case you have identified some bad elements in your life, but on paper
you have a Wife and Kids. You love your kids and wish to spend more time with
them. At 40 you have all life's laughter and tears and wrinkles as
acheivements... hardly "nothing to show"

4\. Advice on the Interwebs

HN is a caring community, but only relatively. Please ignore offhand and
illconsidered remarks from other commentators. The advice can be overly
sacharin and not yield the concrete improvement you seek. Or they can be
overtly callous, ignoring your concerns.

Hopefully you will also seek advice from Trusted Friends

5\. What to do now?

Do a family budget. Work out what you can get by on, and what you could earn
in more rewarding, closer employment. Can you quit your job and move?

Consider buying a franchise, or start your own business like a Cafe or
Restaurant. It's bloody hard work, as my Wife owns a successful Cafe. But it
is rewarding.

There are lots of options, and GOOD LUCK!!

------
ashish01
My advice is why don't you start with some simple things first like making
small positive changes in your routine. Getting up early, eating healthy,
exercising, meditating for 10 min a day. In my experience these small changes
infuse me with energy to deal with problems in my life. Once you feel more
hopeful and confident about yourself you can decide what is best for you.
Weather getting a new job near your place, going free lancing or something
else.

All of us at one point or another feel lost and connecting with your friends
and family helps a lot but its most important to connect back to yourself.

Best of luck.

~~~
neovive
Do you have any advice on the best way to get started with the simple 10 min
meditation?

~~~
anguslong
I've had success with the approach of Jon Kabat-Zinn -- see his talk @ Google:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc>

... his book, Full Catastrophe Living is a good read as well.

------
tmikew
I am you. I'm in my early 40s. I worked for BigCorp 11 years in my position. I
had a long commute. I made lots of money. I have a house and 3 small children.
I wasn't seeing enough of my kids. BigCorp is outsourcing to India. I wasn't
in jeopardy of loosing my particular job, _but_ I wasn't allowed to program. I
had to get the work done through the development teams in India. My immediate
boss was ok, the guy a couple up from me I considered completely incompetent.
I _hated_ my job. I can't tell you how bad.

6 weeks ago I walked into the bosses office and resigned. He tried all manner
of stuff to get me to stay. I wouldn't do it. Previous to me walking in there
I had been thinking about in my own head. "If they would pay me BIG $$ would I
stay on for this latest disaster project, and get my bonus for this year?" The
answer was NOPE. So by the time I walked in there the ship was already sunk
and my boss couldn't save it. I had no job to go to. Interestingly my boss
gave up after a few minutes and told me good luck, and he felt his job sucked
to and shook my hand. My co workers also congratulated me and I left on good
terms.

6 weeks later. I have some savings, my house is nearly paid for and my payment
is small anyway. I can make it for a while without doing anything different to
our monthly budget. I will need to figure out health insurance soon. That is
the biggest thing on my plate. Something else happened. I slowly realized that
the pain at work had crept up on me a little at time for about 2 or 3 years. I
was like the frog in the slowly heated pot, I was dying there. I feel _100%_
better now. I can't even tell you how much. I have all sorts of ideas that I
might try and do. In the spring I will find some sort of job just to buy the
groceries. You couldn't drag me back to where I was with a team of horses and
I was making north of 100k base, plus bonuses, and nobody was really telling
me what to do. Yet still it was not worth it.

The time with ones kids and family are worth way more than the money. Being
able to sit and decide what I might do is exciting. I mean I feel the best I
have felt in some years, and I am unemployed with no prospects. I am a happy
man.

Don't do anything crazy just because of me, but I am you 6 weeks later...

------
igorgue
Demien Katz has a similar story, you can watch the whole presentation here:
<http://www.infoq.com/presentations/katz-couchdb-and-me> it's really
inspiring.

~~~
drawkbox
It is great fun to use CouchDB and knowing more about the creator is great and
makes it better. That was a great one. The honesty in the story was amazing
and it was one of the most inspiring things I have seen. Damien Katz you are
victorious.

------
Tichy
Is a house and big savings really the stuff you want to have to show? I feel a
bit like you, but what floors me is that I seem to have not fulfilled a single
one of my childhood dreams. There never seemed to be the time. So I really,
really try to focus on making at least some of these dreams real now. For
example I always wanted to develop games. While I have created some mobile
games and primitive browser games, there is none that I am proud of. So I'll
focus on that - of course surviving economically is always a challenge :-/

Anyway, you probably have different dreams, but forget about the house and
money. I know sometimes it can sting to see others who seemingly earned more
in the same time, but in the end, it was never what I personally cared for. I
would say having published books is something to show for, for example.

Also remember the law of sunk costs...

Besides of all the practical advice, there is also a philosophical aspect,
isn't there? The meaning of life... It helps to think about death, and what
will really matter in the end. Granted, children might be happier about
inheriting a large lump of money than having a cool dad with interesting war
stories. I don't know - but I personally find the thought very depressing that
building a house and raising a family should be the completion of life.
Nothing against raising a family, I just don't know yet what to tell my kids:
I don't want to tell them "build a house and raise family and your life will
be fulfilled" (infinite circle).

~~~
cousin_it
_I personally find the thought very depressing that building a house and
raising a family should be the completion of life. Nothing against raising a
family, I just don't know yet what to tell my kids: I don't want to tell them
"build a house and raise family and your life will be fulfilled" (infinite
circle)._

What a strange comment. First, the meaning of life (or the closest that life
has to an intrinsic meaning coded in genes) is exactly the infinite circle
that you point out. Just ask a fish or a tree :-) Second, if you go searching
for some kind of meaning in life, it had better be temporally infinite! So why
would you complain about that?

~~~
Tichy
I probably did not explain it very well. What I don't want is to defer
answering the hard question indefinitely by passing it on to my kids.

It is irrelevant that our genes/life "wants" to reproduce. We have to make up
our mind as to what we want to do with life. Actually our genes/life does not
want anything. It just so happens that historically reproducing was a good
strategy for genes to survive (might not always be true in the future, or for
all kinds of genes).

Or actually we don't have to - nothing really matters. But to me it matters.
Other people are probably different, in fact I know several whose lifelong
dream is exactly to own a nice house and a family. But for me to simply
reproduce biologically is not enough.

Edit: of course my kids will still have to find their own answers. I just
don't want them to be burdened by having to be my fulfilment in life.

~~~
gruseom
I think you explained it fine. If you sacrifice your dreams in the name of
your children, and accept a dull life, the example you are setting is
"sacrifice your dreams and accept a dull life". But presumably you don't
actually want your kids to live that way, so the strategy is an unhappy
contradiction.

------
butterfi
You sound like a smart, capable guy, and I've read a lot of good advice here.
I'm a guy in his 40's who had a similar crisis and feel like I came out the
other side. Let me say this:

You can do this.

Find a job that lets you work near home. Your kids grow up fast, and frankly,
kids are like computers. Garbage in,garbage out. They are your long term
project that has the potential to reap some serious happiness and
satisfaction. I love my work, but it was easy to loose site of the big
picture.

Start exercising, if you're not already. Exercise will help you manage
depression and give you new confidence.

Did I mention you can do this? :)

Hang in there brother, you might be in a tunnel now, but it will end.

------
colinplamondon
Seems really easy- you have a great reputation on here and are apparently an
extremely accomplished programmer. You have no mortgage to pay, so your
expenses aren't too bad, though if you have kids you probably want to start
saving for their college. If you're not putting much into savings then your
finances are either totally fucked or you just aren't being paid accordingly
to your experience level.

Just post under your real account that you're looking for contract work, line
some stuff up at a high per hour rate, save for a few months, and then quit
your job.

The real question is if you think your experience is really that good- this is
anonymous so there's nothing for anyone to go off of. If you have a great
reputation here then this road has already been paved for you, comment by
comment.

There's nothing wrong with cashing in on reputation :)

------
euroclydon
lostsheep,

I would just like to give you an encouraging word: If you have written books
and have a high karma score here, then you are a giving person, and you should
feel good about yourself. No amount of money can buy happiness although it can
sometimes buy less stress.

I think nearly everyone here will support your desire to create something
where you can work from home; I have that dream too, however, with a mortgage
and family, your options seem limited. If you are a good programmer, you
should be able to find a new job quickly, even in a bad economy. Don't settle
for a crappy boss.

I have a friend that started a software company in college and is doing quite
well. He wants to start a self-sustaining community where families like yours
can come live (cheaply) and work for a year or two, while they disengage from
the grind, and start a new independent career. I wish he had it going already.

My only real piece of advice is: I think our biggest burden in life is to be
nice to others. Try to smile and talk to everyone around you, love then, give
to them, and to your family, and this selflessness will make you happy.

------
mattm
I'm in my 20s and am single so I cannot even relate to your situation.

However you mention you don't have lots of savings but you want to stop
working and work on something for yourself. You might want to research moving
out of the country for a year or two with your family. I've lived in a few
countries where $500 a month goes a long way for one person. You might be able
to rent out your home as well to get income.

Moving to a place with a low cost of living would give you time to build a
business or work on an idea that interests you. When I was living in China, I
started doing freelance work through oDesk. I only needed to work 30 hours per
MONTH to cover my expenses because I was earning US dollars.

On the other hand, if you are 40 and haven't saved much, you might want to
look into budgetting and personal finance first to control your expenses.
While the cost of living is cheaper, if you want to live the American
lifestyle overseas abroad you will definitely pay for it.

------
omnipresent1
First is first, quit coming to HN for a month. As you say you have high karma
but with an un-satisfying job. That is not a good mix. When you read about all
the start-ups hitting it big, some 25 year olds who solved a real world
problem and are 'rock stars now' ..that might make you feel like you have not
accomplished much. Every person makes their own destiny, different strokes for
different folks. As fred said: find a middle ground. if you've written books
you should not have a problem landing a job close to home that is somewhat
satisfying.

------
Mz
"Because of the hours I work and commuting I barely see my children."

If it's a long commute, one option might be moving closer to work so you have
more family time and more time to think about what to do next with your life.
Alternately, try to find a means to use that commute time constructively in a
way that will help move you out of the current miserable situation and into
something better -- books on tape, hanging on the cell phone with the wife, or
even just using that time to think on your priorities and try to dream up some
solution.

------
jlees
_I am tempted to totally change my life and stop working and create something
new that will be challenging and interesting. Create something that I can do
from home so that at least I am not a slave to my boss._

This is HN, so I'm pretty sure everyone will advocate this option.

Whenever I've found myself in a similar position of unhappiness and
frustration, I just followed my gut instinct, and it worked out great. It
sounds like you have a lot to contribute and the rat race you've ended up in
is stifling that.

Good luck with it. :-)

------
miles
I'd recommend some time with that dear old brother, Epictetus:

 _First decide who you would be, and then do what you must do._

 _Men shut up tame lions in a cage, and bring them up, and feed them, and some
take them around with them. And yet who will call such a lion free? Is it not
true that the more softly the lion lives the more slavishly he lives? And what
lion, were he to get sense and reason, would care to be one of these lions?
Why, yes, and the birds yonder, when they are caught and brought up in cages,
what do they suffer in their efforts to escape? And some of them starve to
death rather than endure such a life, while even such as live, barely do so,
and suffer and pine away, and if ever they find any opening, make their
escape. Such is their desire for physical freedom, and a life of independence
and freedom from restraint. And what is wrong with you here in your cage?
"What a question! My nature is to fly where I please, to live in the open air,
to sing when I please. You rob me of all this, and then ask, 'What is wrong
with you?'"_

More: <http://www.archive.org/details/epictetusthedisc010837mbp>
<http://www.archive.org/details/epictetusthedisc010384mbp>

------
bhrgunatha
First off - try to realise and embrace the fact that these situation don't
last forever. I love the phrase "this too shall pass" because it's pithy and
accurate.

It sounds like your first step though is to find a better job - better
boss/more interesting work/closer to home/ less travel etc.) That will give
you more time away from your family. This alone can have a massive impact.

I commuted 4 hours a day to a client's site almost every working day for close
to 2 years on a single project and at the end of that - when I returned back
to the office - 30 minutes from my house - I felt like I was on holiday! Even
with a new project underway the de-stress was enormous.

You may have to take a financial drop in take home pay but it will give you
space for you to evaluate your longer term options more calmly, under less
mental stress and away from a work relationship that is clearly not pleasant
for you.

I think it's pretty common for these feelings but at least you've recognised
them, some people aren't even able to do that.

I think it's also pretty common during your 40s to feel like this - I did and
still do - and I know a LOT of people in a similar position.

I think noonespecial's advice about sharing these feelings with your family is
good and also about seeking mental health advice.

------
betageek
I think your words resonate with a lot of the HN readers, but you need to look
a little deeper into the cause. For me, I still liked my profession, but the
job I had wasn't allowing me to do the things that fulfilled me. Simple
solution was look for a job that did.

Sometimes when your stuck in a job that is really wrong it poisons your mind
and absolutely everything looks bleak. Try and think back to the times you
were having fun and either change your current job to fit that ideal (believe
me, you may have more power to do that than you think), find a new, better job
(sounds like you have some good job hunting ammo in your books, code and HN
karma) or start up on your own.

If you do the latter, just be aware that being your own boss isn't for
everyone - if you read HN too much it may seem that it's the only thing worth
doing but that's very far from the truth. If what fulfils you is hard-core
coding then spending a large percentage of your time looking for clients/jobs,
doing accounts, sales & marketing etc. etc. etc. etc. may just make your
situation worse.

------
feedus
It would be nice to be able to just follow a dream or turn your life inside
out whenever you need it.

However if you've got a family that depends on you that's not only nearly
impossible but also a very scary proposition.

I would suggest using your real name here and try to link up with an
entrepreneur or an investor who could maybe help fund your dream to create
something new.

------
digamber_kamat
I too was in a similar situation some time ago. I just left everything behind
me and went on a long journey.

I stayed among some of the the most poor people, I stayed with most astute
people. I slept on railway platforms, traveled in bull carts, I stayed with
tribal and I visited different temples.

I realized that there is nothing in this world that can make me feel complete
except my inner desire. In this journey i was only with myself and hence
discovered what that inner desire was. The journey also gave me strength to go
with it.

~~~
Slashed
You see, I think it is a lot easier to deal with problems and survive through
troubles when you are 'only with yourself'. The worst thing that can happen
only to yourself is not the worst thing, but when you must support your family
or there's somebody you care about, tell me how can you be with yourself then?
It's very hard to leave people you love.

~~~
Tichy
Maybe you can't protect your family from everything, though. They are
independent people, who knows, maybe they can deal? Maybe everyone could be
better off in the end? Just saying...

For example my dad had lots of debt and it was a burden to the whole family.
You know what, instead of him working himself to pieces and me watching,
perhaps I would have preferred to move to Africa or whatever. I think there
are almost always possible ways out, you just have to allow yourself to see
them.

------
teyc
lostsheep, thanks for talking to us out here. All of us go through this form
of crisis.

My personal experience is the converse: that I start by being unhappy, then I
find reasons for them. I suspect it's happening to you too. You think you'd be
happier if you saw your children more, but reality can be rather different and
surprising. Until you work out your unhappiness, better not to be surrounded
by people you genuinely care about. Unhappiness can be rather contagious.

I'm over in Australia, and I can't tell you much about finances, but you need
to work out how to own your own home. Once you are secure that way, you'd be
able to go out on your own.

You are probably the best judge of whether the time is right to strike out on
your own, and whether you have the necessary skills.

In the meantime, here is a mind hack: if you are being hit by depression -
make sure you smile at yourself in the mirror several minutes a day (See the
guy who wrote the Shangri-La diet). Also, exercise those facial muscles and
wear a smile. It will do your mental state a whole lot of good. I wish I could
point you to the study. There were some police people who were practising
snarls and other microexpressions in order to learn to predict aggression -
but they noticed that simply practising those facial expressions made them
aggressive. So the converse has to be true too. Smile. For your own wellbeing.

------
pvg
You're certainly lost if you're turning to a bunch of (however well-
intentioned) strangers for help with a problem they're very unlikely to be
able to help you with - they have no idea who you are, your situation, your
history, your personality nor do they have much of a stake in your sorting
things out. The best you can hope for is some well-meaning platitudes and
interesting-but-likely-inapplicable personal anecdotes. The accepted cliché is
that recognizing you have a problem is the most difficult step. Since you've
got that covered, you're probably best off moving on to the (supposedly)
easier bits like where to look for help - the standard list includes things
like family, friends, mental health-care professionals, etc. Usually not 'web
forums', mostly for a good reason.

------
trapper
Find or start a company that encourages "work on your time".

We don't care when, where or how people work, as long as they kick ass. We
have employees that have families, and they usually work while the kids are at
school and then late at night. I'm sure there's a lot more like us around.

~~~
plinkplonk
"We don't care when, where or how people work"

who exactly is "we"? (might help the original poster if people could reccomend
specific companies with enlightened policies wrt working from wherever and so
on)

------
allenbrunson
i don't have anything to add, but i too am one of those that can't "settle"
for the usual stuff.

i walked away from a $100k-a-year job a little over a year ago -- and i live
in tennessee, where $100k goes a _lot_ farther than in the bay area -- because
it was killing me. i've tried various things since then, none of them very
lucrative.

i am now once again dependent on the generosity of my relatives to get along.
but i don't regret quitting. i always manage to come back from the dead
somehow, usually into an even better situation than the one i left.

------
kunley
I understand your concerns as I did a 'big quit' last year.

Now I'd like to have a following point, assuming you live in the US: You are
very lucky as your country makes it very easy to grow your own business. I
live in the EU in some post-communist country and believe me, there's lot of
bureaucracy you have to deal with, which distracts you from achieving your
goals. I know from some friends in the US that there such things are really
near-to-zero when compared to ours. It's not about my political views or the
economic situation at the moment, it's about how law is constructed in a
particular country (and law changes quite slowly).

So, we do the biz on our own. Surely you can do it as well living in a system
which makes it easier.

Good luck! :-)

------
apinstein
_Do not stop working_. It's way easier to get a job if you have one, if for no
other reason than your BATNA is much, much higher.

The unemployment rate for people like you (at least in the US) is ~4%. There
are tons of opportunities out there, go find yourself a better one!

If you really try you can probably find 3-4 job opportunities in 1-2 months. I
imagine you have some vacation time; take some to hang out and enjoy life w/
your family, and some more to interview/find jobs.

As per the other posts, don't be too dismayed. With a little bit of effort you
can find a job at a company that you can get behind and in a matter of months
your entire view will change. Better work, better boss, less stress.

------
david927
I completely understand. Put some sort of anonymous email in your profile and
we'll talk.

~~~
lostsheep
I have done that. Thank you.

------
sammyo
Well you're not alone... got a lot of commentary to this post, eh? My small
datapoint that helps me to some degree at my moments of 'life dispair' is my
'hobby', a small sailboat. Just big enough to sleep in, it's not an expensive
yacht, heck it cost $500 at an auction. But, what it does for me in this
context is give a real 'out', I could theoretically climb on and head south,
right, that wouldn't happen but it gives the mind a moment of escape. It's
also my learning boat, for the round the world trip once the kid is out of
college... That may happen. Hang in there, you'll find your way.

------
ewjordan
If you're respected in your field, have you considered shifting into
consulting? You're really in an ideal position for it: you should have no
trouble finding work, and will probably find that if you book the same number
of hours, you'll make quite a bit more than you currently do. One of the
biggest unpaid time sinks when consulting is negotiating new projects, but you
can probably avoid spending too much effort on that - I'm sure plenty of
people here would be thrilled to receive help from you if you were in the
market.

It's not an ideal lifestyle, and I'm sure you're aware of the drawbacks
(insurance, security, travel, uncertainty etc.), but it offers considerably
more freedom than a 9-5 (you can always turn down projects if you want more
time to yourself, though I'd recommend that instead of saying "No" straight
away you do so implicitly by pumping up your rate to the point where you'd be
thrilled to take the job if they agreed) without a lot of the risk involved in
a startup, and it could allow for a much easier transition towards starting
your own business if you decide to take the plunge.

You'll find that Real Job offers emerge on occasion from contracts that you
complete, and you may even stumble upon something that's lucrative _and_
interesting enough to take, if you're not loving the hired gun lifestyle...

------
hegemonicon
It's one thing to say "create something challenging and interesting". But just
that by itself won't be enough - it's gotta be something you're really
passionate about, otherwise "interesting" won't be enough to carry you through
that 9th month of staying up till 1 am working on it after you get home from
work and the kids have gone to sleep.

Your life is like a house - you can't just pick up the whole thing and move it
without destroying it. You have to tear it down and rebuild it carefully,
piece by piece. So my vague, generic advice is as follows: figure out what
you're passionate about. If you had 10 million dollars and didn't have to
work, what would you spend your time on? If you could choose a life out of all
possible lives, what would it look like? Once you've figured that out, take
small steps everyday to move yourself there.

Figure out what new responsibilities you can take on, and which ones you have
that you can drop. Look for a new job. Go back to school. Start a side-
business. Write a novel. It sounds like you have all the tools available to do
whatever you want with your life, provided you're willing to put in the nights
and weekends to make it happen while still taking care of the responsibilities
you already have.

We only get one life - there's no excuse for not making it as fantastic as
possible. Good luck.

------
neuro
1\. you're pissing away time (yc, twit, etc.), and conveniently putting the
entire blame on the manager - i've done that.

2\. you're a family man with a job. do more of what you need to, and less of
what you want to.

3\. you need to gracefully step off the corporate boat, and not break your
fucking neck in the process. only then in the opportune time, can you do much
more of what you want to. you have it backwards.

4\. disconnect all the inter-tube and its chatter, it's obvious you have time,
ground yourself in something truly rewarding, not a popularity contest. do it
while you're working. most importantly, involve the family to some degree.

5\. don't ask for your wife's permission, it's an enormous guilt trip. ask for
her advise. remember, women seek security and rightfully so.

6\. don't let twits give you the impression you're somehow broken, i stopped
counting how many times I had to send checks out to the "rock stars" on the
net.

7\. get your manager involved in design details - always give her options and
tradeoffs, don't shield her from the process, you're dumbing her down. while
working on your rapport with her, look for a job closer to home.

8\. moving forward, don't advertise yourself as a rockstar programmer and
always involve the manager in the decision process. missed deadlines are
tolerable when it's a group fuckup.

------
cjoh
Working for yourself isn't the answer. Do something you _believe in_ and the
rest will follow.

------
tzury
Your asshole boss is about to loose you. I think that itself is a reasonable
punishment for an asshole. So now that we have had him punished, let us put
him aside.

Being 10 years younger than you makes it just difficult to give you an advise.
See, I would expect you to give me advise based on your rich experience.

All I can do is share with you some general thoughts that come across in my
mind from time to time, being at work, whether spending time coding, or
writing some documents, assisting the marketing and sales guys or dreaming
about my $32 Million startup.

In my opinion, your loving wife and children are a startup. being happy with
them and maintaining decent family and quality life is a great success these
days.

I think, by now, understanding this point, you should get up from your chair
and start dancing with joy and happiness for being such lucky bustard.

If I was finding myself in such frustrating position this is what I was might
be doing, finding myself a long term contract (as self employed), securing my
financial state and then, after a while in the freedom, not being abused by a
stupid fat ass boos, the muse would probably be back. Ideas will pop up and
the way to the startup is short.

------
chipsy
When you're caught in the middle of a crushing situation, you don't think
straight and you develop a lot of bad habits without noticing. The best thing
possible is to get out from under the pressure and regain some self-awareness.

If you can do it, get some savings together, or find a plan to do so. With
those, spend a nice long stretch of time, six months to a year, away from the
"working world" (not necessarily "work," but you want to have plenty of
freedom and a minimum of scheduling and responsibility) so that you can return
to sanity and sort out whatever bothers you about your life and plan how you
want your life to feel - small things, big things, relationships, work,
children, etc. Having the longer timespan is important because your own
perceptions change gradually, and what you think you want now turns out to be
illusory later.

Regardless of what specifically happens, what you think or do, what projects
you start, whether you're well on the way to a new career or you have to take
your old job again, by the end of the period of freedom, you'll have a better
idea of what you're passionate about in life and can refocus around that.

------
yef
Thanks for posting this. I don't have the perspective to offer any meaningful
advice, but I learned something by reading about your situation and reading
the thoughtful responses here.

That said, I agree that you should tell your wife and try to work out a work-
from-home situation.

I also think "totally lost" and "utterly unhappy" are exaggerations once you
count your numerous blessings. :)

------
rapind
This is restlessness I think, and I can also relate.

I think the best approach is to make a list of goals and start knocking them
off one by one. Keep in mind that the economy isn't the greatest at the
moment, so it might not be the best time to make huge risks (although that can
work out to, just depends on your style).

Sounds to me like the following would be a good place to start with your
goals:

1) Reduce or completely remove your commute time. Do this by finding a job
closer to where you live, or move closer to where you work (or where you can
find a new job). Or work from home even, although working from home isn't
suited to all of us since you might really miss the day to day social
interaction (if so, try working from various coffee shops etc.).

2) Solve the boss problem. There are a few things to try here. You can try
speaking to him and letting him know how unhappy you are and that your
relationship with him is impacting your happiness and that it needs to change.
You never know, he might turn out to be a reasonable guy and you can figure
something out together. If he values your work enough then he'll help you to
make the changes required to keep you happy. Of course if that doesn't work,
you can start shopping for a new job.

3) Get a hobby you're passionate about. This will reduce the impact that a
crappy day at work will have on you. Obviously you still want to solve the job
problem, but even if you have the perfect job there will still be days that
depress you. Diversify your happiness.

4) Put together a financial plan. You've expressed unhappiness with your
financial situation, so start small and put together a plan that will evolve
as you learn and save more.

Give yourself some deadlines for your goals. Really focus on them to the
exclusion of less important (but seemingly more immediate) tasks.

You'll be much happier within 6 months guaranteed.

------
bastian
Hi lostsheep,

given what you tell us about yourself, you could off course just go ahead and
totally change your life from one day to the other and "create something new
that will be challenging and interesting [...]", that you can do from home.

Sometimes though, if you don't know what "that thing" is that you wanna do, it
helps to take a step back and look at the situation.

If i were in your position, i would start a list with all the things that make
me unhappy. Be honest, take your time and try to dig deep. The goal here is to
fully understand why you are unhappy. It is a lot easier to understand what
you want to do next, once you figured out what is wrong right now. Let me give
you an example. If you don't feel respected in your job, it might help to
start writing a blog or start another side project that gives you the respect
and the appreciation that is difficult to get in your current job.

Once you've analysed why you're unhappy you already made a huge step forward.
You're now in the know and a second step from here could be to create
something like a change log. What i mean is, that you could try to find a
solution for the biggest things that make you unhappy. You could have a chat
with your boss, check your finances to see if you could work less, have a
couple of interviews to validate your options etc. Work on the change log and
try to find solutions for more and more things that make you unhappy. Give
yourself a realistic timeline, work against it and measure the progress. [It
helps a lot if you have someone on your side to give you feedback btw].

Sometimes it also helps to make a list of all your achievements. Write down
every single thing you every did. I'm pretty sure it will be an impressive
list and you can use it to determine what you really want to do next.

Finally, go ahead and tell yourself that you love the long hours at work, and
the commute, and your difficult boss, and the fact that you still try to
figure out what to do with your life, and that you still pay off your
mortgage, because this is your life, it is all there is! :)

------
caffeine
_You know me because of code I've written, books I've published, and my
contributions here .... I'm in my early 40s, I've worked for start-ups and big
companies. I made a little bit of money in the early 2000s which helped pay
off a bit of mortgage. I have a family that depends on me financially._

I'm in my early 20s, and I'm just starting graduate school. I think you're
exactly who I'm aiming to be in 20 years. So it makes me nervous that it's not
working out for you.

 _Where should I turn? And what would you do?_

Normally, that's what I'd ask somebody like you - someone successful, who
gives to his peer group.

But since you're asking me (us), what I would do (have done), in order:

\- Read the research: <http://www.trendfollowing.com/whitepaper/happiness.pdf>
. The research says that exercise, sex, sleep, lots of time devoted to
meaningful relationships, engagement in work, enjoying the moment, and
regularly achieving goals are the main correlates of happiness. People
overestimate the potential effects of big changes in their lives (lottery
winners / paraplegics).

\- Start with: Sleep, exercise & meditate. They're easy and you can do all
three today. I replaced the SSRIs my health professional gave me with these
habits, and feel much better than I did (indeed, research shows they're more
effective than most of the medication).

\- Take a week. Breathe. Tell your wife and kids that you're going away a few
days to think about being happy and making them happy. Find a forest or a
quiet room somewhere and just sit and think for a week, about how to be happy
and make them happy. Don't watch TV or read books or write code. Just sit and
breathe and think.

\- Ask your family what to do. They know you better than I do. Especially your
kids - kids have a way of totally ignoring the bullshit they're supposed to
see, and just _seeing_ instead. Your parents will know you too.

\- Make a plan. Doesn't have to be detailed, just has to have steps, in order,
that you think will mostly solve this problem if they are executed properly.

\- Do the plan.

\- Consider spirituality. By that I just mean how you really feel about the
Big Questions, about who you are, your place in the world.

A final note: I discovered fairly early on in life that I'm fundamentally
unhappy. With absolutely no good external reasons, when logically everything
in my life is going great, I still tend to emotionally feel unhappy.

My default dopamine-ostat is too low, basically. This has made it very clear
that, for me, happiness is a fundamentally internal thing. Your outside
circumstances (within reason) have only marginal effects on happiness.

My solution is to continuously practice mentally relaxing. Releasing tension
in my diaphragm, my face, neck & shoulders, breathing, and then eventually my
mind - running through all the reasons why I'm basically OK. This eventually
makes me smile, and feel happy. Repeating this practice regularly has made it
almost a subconscious habit. For me, this did more than getting a girlfriend,
being admitted to prestigious schools, or anything else.

~~~
tlb
That's probably true for average joes. But I'm guessing the OP is far more
motivated by making an impact in the world than average. Personally, I get 70%
of my happiness from making a difference in the world and building great
stuff, and 30% from relationships. (Despite that, my lifetime average length
of relationship is 4.3 years. It could be worse.) I found that my life
improved when I accepted that ratio and organized my life around maximizing
the 70% while not ruining the 30%.

~~~
caffeine
_That's probably true for average joes_

You mean the correlates? Yes, you're right. But it probably helps the 2-sigma
people too. More importantly, it's immediate, and depends on nobody else's aid
or acquiescence.

 _Personally, I get 70% of my happiness from making a difference in the world
and building great stuff_

I'd be really interested to know how you figured this out. If I knew something
like that about myself with as much certainty as you seem to, I think it would
change everything.

~~~
tlb
It's a guess. I decided I needed a specific number, because being pulled in
several directions all the time is hard, and it's hardest when the pull is
between work and relationships. Having a slightly wrong target number for
work/relationship balance is better than having no number at all.

------
axod
I feel quite similar recently TBH. Thinking of selling up, burning my
computers and moving to a cottage in the middle of nowhere. Or at least
switching career.

I don't have any answers yet, so this is a useful thread for me too.

Maybe it's just the time of year/state of the economy/etc?

~~~
jacquesm
I think it is natural. Doing anything for too long no matter how interesting
turns it in to drudgery.

------
gord
It doesn't sound like your lost.. it sounds like you know you have to make a
change.

Its risky, but not doing it is ruining your life, so you know you have to do
it.

It really sounds like your strong on HN because you've known this for a while,
and have been considering a startup, and this is a way to explore the idea
before you jump in.

You could just assume from now on that you will launch a startup, build a
product and give it one hell of a shot.

It takes courage - but you have this immense anger at having wasted parts of
your life working for idiots..so take that and use it to propel you forward
into the new venture.

Great great post.. Id been getting so bored with all the crap on HN lately,
but this made my week.

Build that thing.

------
marltod
Pull an "Office Space". I am serious. Only go into the office when you feel
like it. Do things that you enjoy, watch some kung-fu movies with your kids or
whatever. It can take months to fire someone as long as you don't get into a
fight, and you'll get severance. When your boss gives you shit about your work
hours, literally tell him "Sorry, I have a meeting with the consultants" and
leave for the day. You're talented, you'll get another job, and there is a
decent chance you will not even be fired. They will let you work from home or
in a different dept. after your boss complains about you to his boss.

~~~
SwellJoe
_Office Space_ was a movie. A good movie, but a movie, nonetheless. It taps
into human fantasies about being trapped in a cubicle, turning the tables,
lashing out at our oppressors, etc. But it doesn't represent reality. Working
for someone else is a voluntary association, not slavery or imprisonment.

Note that at the end of the movie, the people in the movie have grown up a
little bit, and realized that all the stuff they did was unnecessary. They can
do anything they want with their lives, because the world is full of
possibility. So, sure, watch _Office Space_ , but take away that ending
message rather than an insane plan for wreaking havoc on your boss and
coworkers.

~~~
marltod
Sorry if it wasn't clear, but do NOT hack the accounting software to steal
from the company, or try to date a local waitress or leave fish guts all over
your cube.

Do make your happiness and family a much higher priority than your job.

------
csbartus
It seems something is forcing on you a change. You don't know yet what it is
but if you'll take your time and the support from your family you'll realize
soon.

Take a big breath nothing is lost better days are comming. Your curriculum
shows you are capable to do things good now you'll have to find the new reason
for your life to guide your doings

One thing is very important: stay clean, let the new goal arise from inside,
from your heart not your mind. People like us reach imbalance in the favour of
the brain now the heart is aiming for a little attention to become equal with
your realist part. And then the equilibrum will bring the peace

------
jraby3
You should take the last paragraph and do exactly that - nobody that loves you
would want you to feel the way you do, and generally I've found in life that
the thing you are afraid of doing is exactly what you should be doing (or to
phrase it another way, if you took fear out of the equation - fear of failure,
fear of telling your family, all fear) then what decision would you make?

Your in a rut - you want to do something but you are afraid - I say go do it,
and jump right in! Even if your startup fails, you'll land on your feet
somewhere and will be a lot happier than where you are right now.

------
dstorrs
This is well after the fact, but I'll post it here for anyone who might find
this thread later, and I'll email you about it.

First off, as other people have said, talk to your wife. Trusting her to be
your partner and a source of strength when you need it is a tremendous
compliment to her, and shows your relationship is solid.

Second, assess your situation rationally. Compile a budget of what you've
actually been spending; you'll be surprised to find out how much of it is
discretionary. Got a Netflix account? Cancel it and watch things you already
own; better yet, play board- and card-games with the family.

Read the entries on <http://sandratayler.livejournal.com/tag/frugal+living> to
get some tips on living on a budget. Sandra and Howard Tayler (of Schlock
Mercenary fame) have done a good job of raising, IIRC, 5 kids and done it on a
monthly budget that is less than many New Yorkers spend on a "special
occasion" steak dinner.

Third, whatever venture you pursue, build it around a business model so that
there is or will eventually be income. Then, make sure you don't slack, but
don't go nuts either--treat it like a job with defined working hours but set
aside specific time to be with your family. It's important that neither you
nor your wife feel that you (lostsheep) are contributing to the family and not
just lazing around letting her do all the work. It's also important that you
don't trade one workaholic addiction for another.

Good luck, and I hope some of this helps.

------
drawkbox
\- New job time...

\- Start a new project with a simple output, meaning you can see results
quickly.

\- Buy a new video game, left 4 dead is great after the long commute home for
me OR start a new show to watch and veg once in a while.

\- Learn a new platform OR take on a hobby outside programming with your kids.

Also you might be feeling the weight of the 40 yr old programmer. Well think
of it this way... programming and especially web development/game
development/app development is fairly new. Really our field didn't start out
until the late 70s and the web mid 90s. So programmers will get older and
older, you are nowhere near the end. It was a moment in time when all
developers were young. I am in my early 30's and all my web/gamedev friends
are around the same age but I also work with some 40 and 50 yr old developers
in gamedev.

Maybe even start something of your own on the side and slowly build it to
something that can take out your dayjob.

Also, remember this, sometimes we psychologically or even biologically create
drama in our lives. Teenagers go through it heavily as biologically they are
changing and it does spawn some depression bouts. Same with older people who
might feel it closing in, but you can be depressed and do nothing or
understand it is a phase and find a way through.

------
DanielBMarkham
If you do not take control of your life, it will be over and you will have
only been a participant.The basic question life asks you is this: are you a
truly independent personality driving towards what you want? Or are you just
another sack of meat along for the brief 80-year ride?

Nobody can answer that question but you. Asking HN is not going to amount to
anything.

EDIT: Your question seems to boil down to "I'm lost!" to which the appropriate
reply is "Where are you going?"

------
flooha
One interesting exercise you can do is to write down all of the things that
you think would make you the person you want to be and then prioritize and set
goals to incorporate each into your life. For example, your list might look
something like this:

1) Exercise 30 minutes 3 times per week.

2) Spend at least 1 hour per day playing and interacting with each child,
individually, without distractions.

3) Work on startup ideas at least 10 hours per week.

4) Spend at least 3 hours per week participating in your favorite hobby.

5) Only say fuck 5 times per day. ;)

6) Meet one new person each week.

7) Don't tell a single lie for one day each week.

etc...

You get the idea. The key is to force yourself to meet your goals, learn which
ones are really important to your happiness and then focus on those. Obviously
you can't go nuts and try to do everything all at once, but just making small
changes and trying to accomplish something every day can make a difference.

For more practical advice, eliminate the things in your life that cause you
pain/stress with extreme prejudice. You have to be really honest with yourself
and willing to make tough decisions, but this was the thing that has helped me
the most. For me, these things were mostly people.

------
Flemlord
You mentioned you wanted to work from home. There was a reddit thread recently
where one of the top coders at RentACoder explained what it took to build a
good reputation there and make enough money to support himself.

[http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/a2485/iama_top_coder_a...](http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/a2485/iama_top_coder_at_rentacodercom_higher_rated_than/)

------
dan_the_welder
Yup, right there with you. I am doing a lot of mental hacking, i.e. reading
about depression and health. Loads of reflection about myself and how I got
here. Trying to get a better perspective on the good things I've done and the
things I like about myself. Spending time with friends, avoiding jobs and
customers who I know will stress me out and accepting a lower standard of
living because I need time to work this out. Also ended my relationship
because I realized that she had no idea/interest in the things I was going
through. Not that I recommend that for you, but I never would have been
conscious of the additional stress that was causing if I had not taken time to
think about my situation.

Long story short; make some space for you, research, think, reflect, reinvent.
I am about half way to a new place optimistically speaking.

------
10ren
Good advice here, especially the fundamentals that can be done now (e.g.
exercise.)

"What Color is Your Parachute" is a great career-change guide; in particular,
on evaluating skills based on what you _enjoy_. It's enjoyment both in the
doing and the having done. i.e. happy in the process of it, and proud
of/satisfied with the outcome. Not suffering for a great outcome; nor blissing
away for nothing - instead, bliss for a great outcome. I belabour the point
because it can be elusive to achievement focussed types like myself.

This exercise puts me back in contact with what is actually fulfilling and
meaningful to me. Without this information, it's hard for me to carve out a
job that I like, even if I'm the one creating a job for myself (which I am).

Like the old guy said, "know thyself". Good advice for the lost.

------
antirez
I use 50% of my time working on Redis because my real work is stupid. I used
to work as freelance developer. Then I started to work for myself, now I've
two companies, but still my work is stupid.

Why? Because there aren't just we and our users. There are customers,
investors, and a lot of other people that are between our work and our users.
This "third parties" manage to make us working for 80% on pointless stuff,
write emails with time lines, and so on.

Because of this I'm changing my two companies in the next years, we are moving
into web and mobile development without investors nor customers nor
partnerships, _just users_. Even if this will mean to get into financial
troubles it's worth it.

If you are not happy with your work and you think in some way you'll continue
to survive if you leave it, LEAVE IT NOW.

------
jimbokun
I can relate to what you are going through, and feel like I'm going through
something similar.

The main difference is that I've tried a couple things to change course, and
have met with some failures already. This has been discouraging, and I think I
need to step back and re-assess some more. Some of the discouragement I feel
is due to some misplaced priorities, I'm starting to realize. I should value
time with my family, health, and just appreciating what life has to offer more
than some outward notions of "success." I'm not the best in the world at what
I do to make money, and I'm definitely better than some other people, and
that's OK. But it is not the only important part of who I am. My wife has been
trying to point this out to me, and it is slowly starting to sink in.

------
yason
Don't cling to external power.

Needing to have something to show is letting an external power guide you.
Needing to owna house and having savings is the same. You're effectively
expecting something of yourself that you think other people expect of you in
order to consider you good.

Forget that. You are already good.

Don't think in terms of what you should do, what you can't do, what you must
you, what you ought not to do, and open a fresh viewpoint about simply what
you want.

Any issue it is, it comes down to that you either want it or you don't want
it.

Even if your family asked you do drag on and suffer because of security, it
would eventually be your own choice based on whether you want to do that crap
or not. Nobody can't force you.

That's all. No should, no can, no must, and other externalities but cherish
your internal power instead and decide what you want.

------
lssndrdn
I once went to a management seminar (I know, I know, please forgive me) and
the only valuable thing I remember from it is: "People don't quit jobs, they
quit their boss".

Sounds like you're more experienced than me, but FWIW, in your place, I would
start by looking for another job, closer to home.

------
neilk
Hey, I posted a little bit before in response to someone else, where I
criticized someone else for overdramatizing the problem. But, don't get me
wrong, I totally understand your problem and am wrestling with it right now.

Five years ago, I got imported into the Valley from a distant land, and I
jumped at the chance because I thought I'd be doing something significant. As
of today, nothing like that has ever materialized at the workplace. I'm not
totally embarrassed about the things I've worked on, but I'm not really proud
either.

Instead I found real satisfaction in side projects and in things which were
utterly terrifying for me (building physical objects, also leading a project
doing same). It did teach me something about myself and set me on a modified
path. But it's still a huge struggle.

I have no formula, but I have a partial method.

Try to get yourself in a state where you can listen to the little voices in
your head which want to do certain things. No matter how impractical. Your
frustration is, in part, being caused by your automatic rejection of these
ideas before they even become fully conscious. Use long showers, Bach,
favorite ingestibles, whatever it takes. This might take years if you do it on
your own; maybe someone else can help with this process. Guided meditation or
something.

Wait for the ideas and visions to present themselves.

Consider, without passion, the reasons why you could never, ever do those
things.

Then figure out the thing you're most terrified of and try to do that. It can
be something limited in scope, but you have to hit the essential problem head
on.

For me it worked like this. I had always defined myself as a geek who could
not lead or inspire others. I'm not charismatic at all, quite the opposite. So
I naturally shelved any plans which I couldn't do on my own. But I found other
ways to lead a project. It turns out that at least some people are willing to
get on board with a good idea, as long as you're executing well, even if you
aren't Brad Pitt.

That was my mental block, fear of social inadequacy. What's yours?

------
jarsj
First, feel a little good about yourself. From what I can imagine from your
profile, you are definitely in top 1% in the world and have no reason
whatsoever to have sleepless nights.

If I was you I would do the following : \- Take a short vacation. A change
will help you think fresh. No matter what you decide to do with your life,
take a vacation first.

\- Quit your job. You certainly don't like the way things are, probably tired
of being taken advantage of. Show your company the finger and see how things
start falling in line. You will be surprised to see how they propose things
getting better at your company. You may then decide to stay back.

You may also choose to go into Freelance/Consulting mode, but with a family to
support that may be a bit hard.

------
grosales
Some people find joy in different things. It seems that at this juncture of
your life you are trying to analyze what and why you are doing what you are
doing and where do you want to end up. I feel that I am to young and
inexperienced to be giving this kind of advice, add to that the fact that I
don't know you and I don't like to give generalized advice. If I was in your
case, I'd like to think that I would do what my heart is telling me to do. If
I do that, I will know that I will be happy if I follow that path and because
of that, it will reflect towards my family. If I am a creator and I don't
create, I will be a sad panda. Good luck for you with whatever choice you
make.

------
kmt
You seem to have lost perspective. Don't get caught in that. The easiest way
to do that is to eliminate some of the stuff that is not really important.
Such as being a top contributor to HN.

You have infinite number of options and many of them can be better in terms of
lifestyle. Don't limit yourself to anything that is artificially imposed on
you. Such as society rules, industry rules, etc. There are other societies,
other locations, other industries, other people on this planet. You don't have
to take anything for granted. Think about that. Take it easy for now. Don't
take immediate action. Try to be wise. Slowly come up with a plan.

------
everyonetonoone
Simple solution:

Start research and planning for your own business when you are at home. Sure,
this is supposed to be "family time" but you'll still be near them and at the
least, be building the exploratory building blocks for a potential business
that, if successful, could give you a whole lot more time w/ your family than
you can ever get with your present job.

You should set an income goal (how much you need per month to take care of
your family comfortably) and then try and plan a business that can help you
reach that goal quickly and consistently.

My guess is you already have a lot of skills you can bank on to start a number
of profitable businesses. You only need one.

------
FreeRadical
Maybe retrain as a teacher and do private tuition in the mean time? The
working hours will be better, it's rewarding work (not financially), probably
quite a secure job and you can work on ad hoc projects/consulting on the side.

~~~
coolnewtoy
This online certification program looks pretty painless if you are going that
route. getting another bachelor's degree is the biggest hurdle for 2nd-career
teachers.

Every once in a while I think about it...

<http://www.wgu.edu/education/teacher_certification>

Basic Tuition for Most Programs is Just $2,890 Per Six-Month Term WGU charges
tuition at a flat rate every six months, so you pay for the time, not the
credit hours. Compare that with what other reputable, regionally accredited
online universities charge, and you’ll discover WGU tuition is typically half
the cost.

------
cousin_it
_Where should I turn? And what would you do?_

For me happiness comes from two things: making interesting stuff, and intense
social interaction. If you're in your 40s and married, you probably don't get
enough of the latter either, correct?

------
psranga
Check out Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for Meaning (it's a slim volume)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27s_Search_for_Meaning>

------
kixxauth
Wow, this post hit a nerve.

I felt the same way two years ago, so I'm starting a company.

It's called The Fireworks Project, and it is a member owned and member managed
corporation. We're formed under the Vermont Project
(<http://lawlab.org/digital-institutions/vermont-project/>) as a digital
corporation.

I work from home, I'm married, I'm 31 years old, I have a 6 month old son, and
I'm really excited about what The Fireworks Project is building.

Check it out (<http://www.fireworksproject.com>)

------
bh23ha
_I don't own my home, I don't have lots of savings, I have a job with a
difficult boss. Because of the hours I work and commuting I barely see my
children. I am utterly unhappy with my life._

This does not seem to be an unusual position, a lot of people are in the exact
same boat.

The simple and somewhat contrite answer is, stick it out while looking for a
better opportunity. The better opportunity could be working for yourself or
for a great boss, it doesn't matter. The key point I'm trying to make is that
you're not unusual and it's very common to be in exactly your situation.

------
nw
Lose the anonymity and get some advice from a good friend who knows you well.
One good conversation like that is worth 1000 insightful but generic comments
on HN. Bonus: a good friend will follow up.

------
imperator
It may be useful to find out more about yourself.

Try going to <http://www.authentichappiness.sas.upenn.edu/Default.aspx> and
taking the VIA Strengths Survey.

Positive Psychologists have found that focusing on your top strengths better
promotes happiness. This is kind of an obvious finding, but it is good to know
what those character strengths are.

I have a friend who is undergoing a job change that has caused him to question
which direction to go, and taking this test helped add some perspective.

------
lostsheep2
I'm glad you posted. You're not alone. I'm 5 years younger. I'm one of the
most passionate people I know. It's difficult to take a leap, I rather be
pushed :) .But I'm learning that the sooner I do make the change the sooner I
can start living my life. +1 on telling your wife. Even if you decide to make
a change tomorrow, it could be that it will take you 6 months to accomplish
that goal. So I think it doesn't need to be something that happens tomorrow,
but something you can work towards.

BTW great feedback HN peeps

------
blender
Check out "The Money is the Gravy"

[http://www.amazon.ca/Money-Gravy-John-
Clark/dp/0446692689/re...](http://www.amazon.ca/Money-Gravy-John-
Clark/dp/0446692689/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258043764&sr=8-1)

It may sound trite to suggest a self-help book but trust me - this book is
different. My story is not that different from yours - I am in my early 40s, 3
kids, family depends on me financially, I have gone through some rough patches
in my IT career. This book is a good starting point.

Cheers

------
roqetman
I was in a similar situation; while I can't blame it all on my job, but it was
the complacency that got me. I ended up separated from my wife and seeing my
kids only a few days a week. When you feel like that do something about it.
But speak to your family, prepare them for a while where they will have to
live financially reduced and then make a change. Change is the first order of
the universe, resistance to it will bite you in the end; embrace it and ride
the wave instead.

------
keeptrying
I think what your looking for is inner peace (as cliche as that sounds). I
would love to be able to say something right here to be able to make you
comprehend what I mean by "inner peace" but I'm not that capable yet.

Read the "The New Earth" by Eckhart Tolle. It'll explain to you what you need
to know. Based on that you can make your decision.

The best part about that book is that you will be able to make your decision
from a place which is not fear.

------
jyellin
The first thing that you must realize is that you are NOT alone with this
unfortunate thought process. Some background on me...I am a motivational
speaker, writer, personal trainer, entrepreneur, life coach, etc. The reason I
provide this background information is more for social proof than anything
else because I have spent years of my life studying the human psyche, identity
theory, and emotional pain. What I have learned is that our country has been
inflicted with a disease, a plague of far reaching magnitude, where almost
every person is negatively affected. I have coined this catastrophic dilemma
as an IDENTITY CRISIS where you begin to live the life that someone or
something has created on your behalf. This is what you are experiencing
because at some point their was a "PAIN" which surfaced in your world, that
never had the opportunity to heal, but in order to eliminate this emotion, you
subconsciously allowed this wound to scab over. As you have evolved, this pain
was never healed, and instead masked, but now it has SURFACED once again. I
would like to assist you through this process because I have worked with
countless people who also experienced exactly what you are going through. In
the meantime, please invest in yourself, and visit my website
(www.jaredyellin.com) and subscribe. Everything is FREE and I believe this is
will enable you to begin the process of thinking differently about your life.
With all of this being said, I want you to remember, that you are NEVER alone!

------
utx00
first thing is to stop ruminating. even if your mind wants to. even if it
feels like that is the best way out of this situation. so stop now. don't look
for explanations, don't try to understand. that would make it worse. the
answers are not in what we accomplish, or in what we think we need to do or be
(great doctor vs. lowly coder) - all dangerous fabrications.

watch this video:
[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1424079446171087119...](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1424079446171087119#),
it's only :45 or so.

read these - take the day off and read them if you need to:

[http://www.amazon.com/Full-Catastrophe-Living-Wisdom-
Illness...](http://www.amazon.com/Full-Catastrophe-Living-Wisdom-
Illness/dp/0385303122/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8)

[http://www.amazon.com/Mindful-Way-through-Depression-
Unhappi...](http://www.amazon.com/Mindful-Way-through-Depression-
Unhappiness/dp/1593851286/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258032852&sr=1-1&s=books&qid=1258032724&sr=8-1)

------
dentonbros
If the entrepreneur route is in your cards, and you anticipate leaving your
job for a change, I highly recommend you find a business partner. Someone with
complimentary skills (not identical) that can help motivate you and drive you
is essential to success.

I've worked solo for 5 years, and it has been a mistake. I'm currently seeking
a partner, and I couldn't be happier about it.

------
run4yourlives
_I am tempted to totally change my life and stop working and create something
new that will be challenging and interesting. Create something that I can do
from home so that at least I am not a slave to my boss._

That doesn't sound lost to me. Scared, sure. Risky, you bet. But lost? Hell
no. You know exactly what you want to do, it's just hard for you to do it.

------
ganley
On a practical note, in case anyone can help you out concretely on the job
front: Where do you live, and what's your specialty?

------
madaerodog
quietly work on a startup while still going to your job, and when that
provides enough money quit your job and grow it stronger

~~~
amackera
This might be hard, especially since he doesn't have time to spend with his
own kids :(

~~~
thetrumanshow
When I was a kid, I wanted to spend more time with my dad, but he was always
at work, and he was so tired in the evenings that it was difficult to engage
with him.

The solution happened naturally as I grew up a bit. I would hop on my bike and
go down and see him at his machine shop after school or in the middle of the
day in the summer. Yes, he was busy, it's not like we were playing catch in
the office, but the opportunity was there for me to tag-along and watch what
he did.

I was extremely proud of him. He was the boss at his own company. I don't know
what it would be like to have a dad that worked for other people, but I doubt
I would have been as proud.

My mom started her own retail business too. I often would go and spend time
with her during the day while she worked. There were plenty of slow times to
have a chat about this or that.

In my own life, I don't yet have the privilege of working for myself, but I
want to get to this point both for myself and for my kids, so not only will
they have a guaranteed summer job :), but also so they can understand the
value of independence.

------
gcheong
One approach that has helped me get some perspective in situations when my
mind is churning out negative thoughts and feelings such as you are
experiencing is a cognitive behavioral approach based on mindfulness. Try
having a look at <http://thehappinesstrap.com> .

------
Ixiaus
You've got yourself stuck in the Orange vMeme
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics#Orange>). You won't always be
happy doing work for another person, maybe define a life purpose and mold
everything around to that...

------
maxklein
Join the hells angels. Not literally - when people are in your state, they
need a group, a mission and a sense of purpose. They join gangs, churches,
scientology - they look for something with a leader they can follow.

Try finding what local gangs are looking for new members. Not literally.

------
hh
Nothing you do will make you happy so changing job (or wife or anything else
you name it) doesn't help that much. Everyone suffered the same feeling as you
do at one point or another. The question is are those thoughts real? How can
you handle it when they arise?

------
fauigerzigerk
Either talk to your wife/gf about it or leave her on the spot.

Call everyone in your address book and ask them to have a cup of coffee with
you. Tell them you're ripe for a change and see what comes out of it.

Get a job in Singapore and see whether any startup ideas/opportunities result
from it.

~~~
Tichy
Not sure why you were downvoted? Perhaps for suggesting to leave the wife? It
sounds cruel, but who knows, sometimes it might be better for everyone.

~~~
Freebytes
That is certainly the reason he was downvoted. Is there really any reason to
discuss downvoting? The fact that his wife might not want him to take such
drastic steps is actually a good thing. My wife is my dream killer which is a
good thing. Dreams are fantasies. You should be willing to 'go for it', but
you should have someone there to keep you in reality. Just because his wife
might not see things from his perspective does not mean she is wrong. Instead
of seeing it in such a negative light, it should instead encourage him to find
more information to persuade her. She, after all, is more like the customer
than he will ever be, and the customer is the target for your business
venture. If you can convince her of the project, that is probably a useful
project. I am sure she would not mind a small cut in hours to work on a side
business. Even going from 40 hours to 35 hours per week at such a job would be
a big change. That extra 5 hours per week could result in him eagerly awaiting
to come home to continue working on his projects. He is not asking for
permission to be lazy, and his wife would not be asking for him to suffer.
Instead, she would be the voice of reason to prevent him from slipping into
fantasies. She might say no at first but agree to a large cut of hours (40 to
20 perhaps) if he saves six months of income. That would give him something
towards which he can work. He can bargain this way until they reach a
concensus. The reason he wants fewer hours at work is to spend more time with
his family not to leave his family. Even something as small as "I am going to
stay up 2 hours later than usual each night to work on my projects and work
for 8 hours on Saturday on it." can be the beginning of a new business. That
would equate to 18 hours per week of working on the side project, and when you
can show something for the time spent, she will probably be more accepting. If
she is initially accepting of everything you say, it does not mean she does
not love him, and it does not mean she is a cruel woman. It simply means that
she wants what is best for the family, and she can be the rational one that
keeps him grounded. He can continue to dream, but he needs a solution for
filtering his ideas, and she can be perfect for that.

~~~
Tichy
It sounds as if you know his wife? It might be as you say, or maybe they are
just completely different people. They probably have lived together for many,
many years now. What if they just make each other unhappy?

Granted the formulation "leave immediately" was probably too harsh. I would
think it is worth trying to talk about things. But one can't assume that
staying together is always the best solution.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
There seems to be somewhat of a misunderstanding. I didn't say leave her
because she might not want you to do the things you want to do. I said talk to
her or leave her!

My opinion is that if he ponders such important matters and feels unable to
talk about it with his spouse then it's not a relationship worth having. I
would go so far as to say it would be unfair _not_ to quit a relationship if I
felt unable to talk about things like this.

I stand by that in all its harshness.

However, it may be a mistake to talk about these things in a do this, do that
kind of style. I know I'm not very diplomatic but I think he's smart enough to
parse it and maybe dismiss it, and if I'm voted down so be it.

------
pmsaue0
I just put up a collection of some favorite articles about life issues /
choices... the "what should I do with my life" questions. Feel free to email
some others.

<http://wildtenderness.heroku.com/articles>

------
japherwocky
It seems like you're well qualified, and probably quite an asset to your
company. It seems like you're frustrated with your current work/boss
situation.

Maybe it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for fewer hours, or some
telecommuting time to be around your children?

------
dezwald
this is absolutely a great post.

Not only because what lostsheep posted, but the quality of the responses
people on here(HN) are replying back with.

Just unreal. I'm so that lostsheep posted this.

------
da5e
Yes, totally change your life...but slowly, slowly.

~~~
thetrumanshow
This is the most encouraging advice because it is vague but practicable.

------
retroryan
I am in a very similar situation. I would be interested in hearing what you
come up with. Send me an email at retroryan // gmail

------
mbubb
Wow - could me me except that you have done much more than I. I like reading
HN but feel very peripheral to the main current. Read your post and related
alot more than I do with most. Thank you for the honesty and directness.

Trying to get by with a single income (wife and 2 young kids) in an expensive
metro area. In a job which I like because it has been my first job working in
an almost purely Linux sysadmin - but with difficulties not to enumerate as I
am using my real name... For various reasons, there is nowhere for me to go in
the company, the jobmarket keeps me in place and reinforces the slavish notion
that I am lucky to even have a job.

The things that motivate me at this point are embarrassingly simple. On the
train this morning, I figured out how to run SLIME and worked through the
examples in PG's short "History of Lisp". It made me happy because I had been
reding about LISP and related things for some time on HN and other places but
had no idea for a while how to start investigating the subject. Such
initiatives do not have much legs because I get drawn into everyday
responsibilities and the (hopefully) minor crises that come with having small
children.

These trivial discoveries make me happy in the short term and I muddle though.
Long term thinking fills me with dread.

I know I have started this all late in life - sometimes it feels too late.

Anyway to reiterate - I can say that I empathize in a minor way as I have not
achieved a fraction of what you have. What follows is a personal reaction.

In what feels like another life, I was a grad student in literature. Your post
reminded me of 3 things that I had read over the years. Not so much the pieces
themselves but a situation described. Your post is full of frustration and
dread. The accumulation of energy before a lightning strike. I would love to
convey this too you as the energy in your post makes me feel like you might be
closer to a solution than you think. My attempt:

A bit of critique (not criticism mind you) - look at the 2 questions in the
2nd to last paragraph.

The contrast in the questions made me think of a mistake endemic to our time -
one that great and small minds make. A movement from the concrete to the
abstract. A movement from within to without. What Blake refers to as a 'roofed
horror'

The question:

"Where should I turn..." reminded me of the first piece of literature- have
you read any DesCartes? If you are interested in the History of Science read
his early life and an event known as the dream in the 'poele'. The same
question occurred to him (in Latin).

The next question "And what would you do?" is a detour.

A natural one because the way seems blind and a deadend. And this (HN) is a
community of people who likely understand where this question is coming from
better than most. But the answer is not here or anywhere external.

Looking at your brief eloquent post this is a point at which you probably have
to turn within.

The last paragraph is abstract where the previous ones are personal and
direct. And of course it is a valid answer but the impetus is reactive and
negative. By negative I do not mean 'wrong' or misguided. I mean in the sense
that it is defined as against something else. The "something new" that is NOT
your current life and does NOT involve yr difficult boss.

But to break free in a meaningful way this has to be transcended. 2nd piece of
literature - the introduction to Hegel's "Phaenomenology of Geist". Negation
is a moment in the process. Acorn --> tree. Lightning revealing a crumbling
structure at the moment of its collapse.

And 3rd TS Eliot's WasteLand. Part 3 or 4. "What the thunder said". Images
from an Sanskrit text. World in a drought, groups of people gather and pray to
discover the reasons for the drought. A terrific thunderclap which each group
hears as a different word. That word is a key.

Hopefully this does not sound too hokey.

I wish you the best.

------
initself
Meditation, Qi Gong, Yoga, Enlightenment - try to realize God within yourself
within this lifetime.

------
nfnaaron
_When what you're doing isn't working, try anything else._

Simplistic, but true nonetheless.

The sum of your life isn't working for you, so you should definitely act and
change something. Don't think "I should be happy because I have these things
or because others like me look happy." You're not happy. Change something. You
have _zero_ responsibilities beyond the well being of yourself and your
family.

Change the job, deliberately, carefully, and as quickly as possible. Even if a
heart-to-heart with your difficult boss improves that relationship, there's
still the commute and your desire to spend more time with your kids.

A job is just a job, and they don't care (much) about you. You're more or less
pluggable. Your kids are the world, and you're losing them everyday, even when
you're with them 24/7. My son is eleven and I love him exactly the way he is
today, but I ache from the fact that I will never again be able to talk to the
four year old he once was. Max your time and quality with your kids, they're
good for you and you're good for them.

If you have trouble figuring out what to do "from now on," then just try to
figure out what you can do "for awhile." Give yourself some space and time to
look around. You're smart enough and disciplined enough to write a book, so
you can probably work remotely. Get a contract or permanent-but-remote job
with someone on the other side of the country, or New Zealand, so that there's
no question about the work from home thing. You don't have to save the world
with your first change, you just have to push the world back a bit, so you can
see what's possible.

Downshift. If you have more than 12 (or N) payments on a car, sell it and buy
a good enough cheap car that serves your needs. If you're not commuting then
you don't need much car. Get rid of cable/dish (but keep the broadband). Sell
your house and buy a smaller one in an older neighborhood (assuming the
economics work for that). Get rid of as much out-flow as possible, and save it
instead.

Take a hard look at money expenses and psychic expenses, and realize that most
of our "have tos" are merely "want tos." If you're doing something that sucks
(like your job) because you "have to" live in a certain neighborhood or in a
certain way, then think about what those supposed "have tos" are doing to you.

You do have to take care of yourself. As they say at the beginning of an
airline flight, if you're traveling with children (which you are), in the
event of an emergency place your own oxygen mask first, so that you are then
able to help your kids with their oxygen. Point, don't suffer in a field of
suck because you think it's good for your kids. Take care of your needs within
the bounds of responsibility and propriety, and you'll be better able to take
care of your kids.

Much good advice in the other comments. Look at it all with slightly unfocused
eyes and see what it all suggests that will work for you. Talk to a trusted
friend and a close relative. Don't feel obligated to take any specific advice.

~~~
run4yourlives
_My son is eleven and I love him exactly the way he is today, but I ache from
the fact that I will never again be able to talk to the four year old he once
was_

As a parent of a 2 1/2 year old and a four month old, I'm saddened that there
will be a point in my life - _deity_ willing - that I'll be saying the exact
same thing you are.

~~~
coolnewtoy
maybe, maybe not. I understand the viewpoint, but it's not how I'm
experiencing parenthood. Looking at pictures of my kids when they were babies
and toddlers and preschoolers - they look so unformed. It's like watching a
sculpture come to life out of a block of marble, watching them slowly become
more themselves.

------
garnet7
If you can tell this to your wife, and she's supportive and will accept a
lower standard of living in exchange for a happier family, then you're an
extremely lucky man. AFAICT, many wives will just run you until you're nothing
more than a burnt out husk.

------
nathanwdavis
You need Dave Ramsey and Dan Miller's '48 Days to the Work You Love'

------
joubert
Feelings of utter despair warrants seeing a shrink.

~~~
peregrine
Or sounds like hes having a Mid-Life-Crisis. He seems to be handling it pretty
well considering. Most delve into alcoholism, have an affair or spend money on
ridiculous things. Hes seeking advice and trying to improve his situation long
term. Everyone has existential moments, sometimes it takes some time to see
where you're at.

------
aw3c2
Do not work from home, you need social contacts.

------
iterationx
go read some biographies and you'll get some perspective

------
sleepingbot
I'm 32 and work from home. 2 daughters. A wife who works with me. We both have
a background in journalism, and she was making some good money when working
for big TV.

We decided to marry and try to create a site by ourselves. We believe in
simple life and try to be frugal. Downshifting. No more commutes and stupid
meetings; no more work on something we don't believe in.

We have spent more money than we got in return. But, you know, we don't need
lots of money to live more than comfortably. We don't own a car and don't
spend a lot of money in things like taxis or buying stuff. We buy a few things
that have quality and try to increase their life span. In clothes, but also in
computers, etc.

Our website is light and uses AWS-EC2. Even in there we want to be frugal.

Maybe, just maybe, our site will become profitable. If not, we are creative
and love to stay together, so we'll figure it out.

Isn't it wonderful to feel one is owner of his/her plans?

~~~
jacquesm
Hey sleepingbot, mail me your URL, I'll see if I can get you some more traffic
if you want.

~~~
PStamatiou
This made me smile. I love when HNers help out other fellow HNers. Thanks.

------
kevin_way
I've been in a similar situation, and my reaction was to spend several months
looking at the science of happiness, and thinking about what really makes me
happy.

I came up with some answers (time at home, time with family, a feeling that my
work does more than make a few wealthy men slightly wealthier.)

From there, I started working on a business plan, for a startup where the
primary goal was to find a way to monetize the activities that bring me
happiness.

I can't say that this startup is currently profitable. It's not. But I'm
executing on the vision, and so far things are very close to the plan. And I'm
much, much happier than I used to be.

------
ahoyhere
Don't be afraid to admit that you don't know what to do... even with your
public persona.

It makes you look brave, and perhaps counterintuitively, it makes people
admire you more. And it gives you so many more options to seek assistance and
advice.

By treating it as something shameful that you have to hide, you are only
reinforcing it for yourself that it is something shameful that you have to
hide.

------
c00p3r
Visit India, Nepal or any other developing countries which really needs
contribution from skilled people like You.

Eventually You will feel that You are among friends, that they glad to see You
each time they meet You, and finally You will feel that money is not
everything.

This is a difficult decision, but You can always come back after year or two.

------
torpor
Sell everything, move to a different country where you don't speak the
language. Life will be good again.

------
petermcc
Hi

"I am tempted to totally change my life and stop working and create something
new that will be challenging and interesting."

Go grab yourself a copy of Napoleon Hill's 'Think & Grow Rich'. Read it 2-3
times. Then go for it!

------
sheats
I don't post much on Hacker News but on this one I must. Happiness is not
found in money, job, or having a successful startup. Men, on their deathbeds
never wish they had worked more or made more money, but they do wish they had
spent more time on what is really important: family and their children. You
say you barely see your children. I suggest choosing a job or position that
allows you to see your wife and children a lot more and cutting your expenses
drastically if that would help. I'm sure with your reputation you won't have
trouble finding remote contract gigs that would allow you to work at home.

I'll separate this next thought from the previous because I think you can take
the previous suggestion will still work good in your life without taking the
next suggestion, although they work best in combination.

Take some time to look at nature and your body. Ask yourself if it takes more
faith to believe that it all happened by chance or to believe that there is a
God that designed it all and created it. I'm not going to try to say anything
else to try to convince since I know the HN crowd and I know no amount of
debate will accomplish anything.

I hear in you a hungry heart for something to meet the deepest desire of your
heart. I believe we were created by God and for Him and until we find Him we
will never be satisfied. Being the owner of Google, Facebook, or anything does
not satisfy that need. Having a wonderful wife and great kids doesn't. Having
a challenging and interesting job won't do it. Money definitely won't -- look
at the depravity you see in some of the world's richest people.

You ask "Where should I turn?". My answer: if what I have said rings true at
all in your heart, turn to Jesus. Start by reading the Gospel of John in the
Bible. Turn to your Creator to find the answers as to why you were created. He
is real, and He is very interested in meeting the deepest desires of your
heart.

And whether you take my advice or not, I truly hope you find answers to your
questions.

~~~
plinkplonk
"You ask "Where should I turn?". My answer: if what I have said rings true at
all in your heart, turn to Jesus"

May I suggest the Flying Sphagetti Monster instead? Just as valid as some "man
in the sky" mythology, from a "turn to X" point of view.

Please, take your religious preaching elsewhere and don't prey on someone's
confusion/depression, at least on this forum.

Thanks in advance.

~~~
cynicalkane
I shudder at the thought of HN turning into Slashdot, where know-it-alls feel
the need to hijack any genuine religious feeling or discussion by injecting
the latest anti-religion meme picked up from the intertubes.

As of this writing the grandparent is voted down, so maybe the change is
already happening. But I felt the grandparent was at least a good faith
attempt toward something readable and interesting, whereas the parent is the
sort of post that made me stop reading Slashdot threads about religion:
insulting and meaningless.

~~~
plinkplonk
""I shudder at the thought of HN turning into Slashdot, where know-it-alls
feel the need to hijack any genuine religious feeling or discussion by
injecting the latest anti-religion meme picked up from the intertubes."

And I shudder at the thought of HN turning into a place where appeals for
advice are met by "Turn to $Diety, who watcheth over us all". That something
may be believed with high conviction is not a measure of its truth or validity
or appropriateness.

wrt

" any genuine religious feeling or discussion"

But that is the point. HN isn't the place for religious discussion or
proselytizing, no matter how heartfelt or (subjectively) genuine the belief in
its tenets is.

As with politics, these circle endlessly and go nowhere. There are plenty of
other forums on the intertubez where people of specific convictions can
exchange their beliefs (or delusions) to their hearts content.

Theology of any kind is a bad topic to bring up on HN. And any organized
religion's theological minutiae are just as valid (or invalid) as discussion
of the FSM, which is a device contrived to expose the subjective nature of
such strongly held beliefs.

I have my beliefs about the nature of the Universe (it is irrelevant whether I
am agnostic, atheist or religious), but I don't proselytize them _here_ or try
to gain converts by pivoting off peoples misery.

So no matter how "genuinely felt" your religious belief is, please don't
pollute _HN_ with it.

~~~
sheats
plinkplonk: My post was made for no other reason but to answer lostsheep's
honest questions with the only honest answer I have. I sincerely apologize for
"polluting HN" with my honest thoughts. If I had seen that he added an email
address to his account I would have just emailed him since I know most people
here don't appreciate religious discussions.

~~~
plinkplonk
"My post was made for no other reason but to answer lostsheep's honest
questions with the only honest answer I have. "

I never questioned the strength of your conviction in your beliefs, just the
appropriateness of expressing them _here_. My post could have been less
strongly worded, though. I apologize unreservedly for any offense caused by
the sharpness of my tone.

" If I had seen that he added an email address to his account I would have
just emailed him"

I agree this would be the correct action to take.

Cheers,

~~~
run4yourlives
_I never questioned the strength of your conviction in your beliefs, just the
appropriateness of expressing them here._

Normally, yes. In this case however, they don't deserve down mods. The
appropriate value for such a comment in this thread is 1.

