

Ask HN: I will work for free ... - swdev

I am willing to work for free on interesting project until you find me useful and decide to pay for my work (hope this will occur within few months).<p>My current location is bangalore and I'm a senior developer (10+ yrs exp.) working for Top notch software consulting company.<p>Very interested in mobile technologies. Love to work on 
iPhone or Android applications<p>Profile:
    * C#, Java, Ruby, Rails
    * Silverlight, AJAX
    * Windows, Mac, HPUX
    * Oracle, MySQL, SQL Server, SQL, database schema design.
    * Subversion, Git, ClearCase
    * Knowledge of object oriented design concepts and design patterns. 
    * Proficiency with n/jUnit, n/jmock, ASP.NET framework, and CruiseControl.NET. 
    * XP, TDD, Continuous Integration
======
swombat
I don't think this is a good approach.

As an employer, I wouldn't want to invest the time in getting someone up to
speed with my systems if they have no "lock-in" that means they'll stay with
me until they've paid off for that initial ramp-up period (which would cost me
time). I particularly wouldn't want to do so for someone who already has a job
at a software company - I'd clearly be a distant second (if not third or
fourth) priority in that person's life.

Next, about the profile - I suggest you pick a narrow specialty that you
really want to work on (e.g. Ruby on Rails), and focus on that. I don't think
many people, particularly start-ups, are interested in hiring a "C#, Java,
RoR, Silverlight, Ajax" guy. That long list makes you look unfocused and
implies that you probably suck at a lot of technologies rather than being very
good at a few.

My suggestion to you would be: pick one technology with a thriving OS
community (e.g. RoR), and contribute open-source software. That's one way to
work for free that will greatly enhance your value to potential employers.
Start a blog, talk about your experiences with Rails, promote your open-source
projects, etc. You'll soon find paid work coming your way.

~~~
HaltingState
He lives in India. A programmer there makes 350,000 Rs a year. All these
responses are so discouraging.

"That long list makes you look unfocused and implies that you probably suck at
a lot of technologies rather than being very good at a few."

In my startup, we have everyone doing everything. If all someone knows is
java, they are useless to us. Each of us had to learn 3 different new
languages each just to get our product to launch. We do not have the luxury of
having someone with 10 years experience who only knows Java. If something
needed to be done, someone had to do it. If we did not have the skills in the
group, we had to learn them.

The critical factor for success in a startup is not 10 year of experience in
one narrowly defined technical specialty. Specialization is for insects. The
most important characteristics for effectiveness in a startup is the ability
to learn and the capacity for getting things done. This is one of the key
differences between working in a startup and working in a larger company. In a
startup you have to do your own marketing, sales, programming, interface
design... Everything needs to be done and it is an expensive luxury to have a
person specialized in each area that is required.

" That long list makes you look unfocused and implies that you probably suck
at a lot of technologies rather than being very good at a few."

"That's one way to work for free that will greatly enhance your value to
potential employers. Start a blog, talk about your experiences with Rails,
promote your open-source projects, etc. You'll soon find paid work coming your
way."

If you want to be poor for the rest of your life and at the mercy of an
employer, this is probably a good strategy. Instead of attempting to make
yourself more appealing for sale to your bourgeoisie overloads you would
achieve greater success and freedom by focusing your efforts on creating
something that has value and which people are willing to pay for.

~~~
swombat
_In my startup, we have everyone doing everything. If all someone knows is
java, they are useless to us. Each of us had to learn 3 different new
languages each just to get our product to launch. We do not have the luxury of
having someone with 10 years experience who only knows Java. If something
needed to be done, someone had to do it. If we did not have the skills in the
group, we had to learn them._

Specialising in something doesn't mean you can't do other stuff. I have done,
in my time, Java, PHP, C, ActionScript, Ajax, Ruby/Rails.. hell even Basic and
Pascal while I'm at it (and that's just the ones I actually built functioning
software with...). But I wouldn't list those on my CV. At this point in my
life, I'm primarily focused on the Rails + Flex stack, and I would be lying if
I claimed that I'm proficient at all the technologies that I once was
proficient at. You NEED to be able to pick up any technology required along
the way, of course, but you can't be proficient in all those technologies at
the same time.

I do not believe for one minute that this guy is proficient at _all_ those
technologies. It's a full time job just to keep up to date on Rails, let alone
on Java and C# as well! The obvious conclusion from that list is that they're
just technologies he's familiar with, rather than technologies he's _good_ at.
Therefore, the obvious conclusion from this "CV" is that he's not good at any
of those technologies (or at least there's no hint as to which he might be
good at), and just listed them all in a shotgun approach. That is NOT a good
hiring signal.

 _If you want to be poor for the rest of your life and at the mercy of an
employer, this is probably a good strategy. Instead of attempting to make
yourself more appealing for sale to your bourgeoisie overloads you would
achieve greater success and freedom by focusing your efforts on creating
something that has value and which people are willing to pay for._

Bullshit. That strategy (blogging/being active in the community + copious open
source contributions) will soon have you connected with more freelance work
than you know what to do with. Beyond starting a start-up (which this guy is
clearly not ready for yet), it's pretty much as close to freedom as you're
gonna get as a programmer.

Working for YOUR start-up? That's not HIS freedom, dude, that's just slavery
in service of YOUR freedom.

~~~
HaltingState
If I was a programmer today, I would want to be working in the mobile space. I
would do anything that was necessary to associate with people in that area and
to gain expertise.

He said that he is willing to work for free for a couple of months and hopes
to be paid eventually. I am assuming that he wants to learn some new
technologies and find opportunities. An employer is taking on a large risk by
having someone with no commitment on a project when it will take them several
months to get up to speed and learn the required languages.

If he spends a few months in his spare time learning a project's technology
and become effective at contributing and is eventually paid for his continued
work on the project, I think that it is a good position to be in.

It reduces the risk to the employer and gives him some opportunity to learn a
new technology platform. If he contributes significantly to a project, any
employer would be more than happy to pay him at least twice what he is earning
now. Even at $25,000 a year, he would cost less than a 1/3rd of the cost of a
very competent American programmer.

------
shabda
[Hope this doesn't sound too harsh.]

I few months back, we were hiring and Put up an ad on Monster. One of my
reject criteria was "having more than 3 unconnected technologies". Even with
>10 yrs exp, listing all the technologies you might be connected with doesnt
look nice at all.

Also no matter how desparate I am I would never,

"I am willing to work for free on interesting projects", as that just leads to
wrong people and wrong expectations, who dont value your work or time.

Also if you want this ad to be effective, a newly created account with no
credentials like a Github account, a blog or your site doesnt help.

~~~
plinkplonk
" One of my reject criteria was "having more than 3 unconnected technologies".
Even with >10 yrs exp, listing all the technologies you might be connected
with doesnt look nice at all."

WHile it is your privilege to use whatever criteria to reject people, this is
complete nonsense.

I know many excellent developers from my days at ThoughtWorks who are experts
in and move seamlessly between the java/j2ee, dotNet and RoR stacks. If you
understand the fundamentals behind one web stack you can shift trivially into
another. Many have contributed code to both j2ee and RoR (say).

If you really understand http (and associated bits like sessions, caching
etc), sql (and associated bits like database scaling/sharding etc) , an ORM,
Javscript (maybe a framework like JQuery) and have worked on some large web
apps for a few years, switching to "unconnected" stacks is the least of your
worries. Web dev doesn't change all _that_ much over the years.

The only significant change I see is the rise of NoSQL/"BigData" and really
how much time does it take for a talented developer to come up to speed on
these things _especially_ if he is working with people experienced on the "new
stuff" (for whatever values of "new stuff")? Web Dev is hardly rocket science
stuff taking decades ot master.

The rest of your post though , this bit

""I am willing to work for free on interesting projects", as that just leads
to wrong people and wrong expectations, who dont value your work or time.

Also if you want this ad to be effective, a newly created account with no
credentials like a Github account, a blog or your site doesnt help."

is very much on the dot. Let me add to the chorus of voices here advising you
to actually build something/write some open source sw so people can judge how
good you are. "Free" is hardly the criterion one use when bringing on a new
dev onto a critical project (All startup projects are critical projects)

~~~
mapleoin
Well those three technology that you mentioned are actually connected, and you
mentioned a very strong link between them: they're all web stacks. You
actually cited that part of the original post: "...having more than 3
unconnected technologies..."

------
HaltingState
Send an email to HaltingState@gmail.com

I have a friend who is working on some awesome iphone games and could use
someone with experience with OOP design patterns. He would be willing to split
revenue generated by the applications. Right now he is doing Objective-C
development for the iphone (easy to pick up).

The android platform is going to be a huge opportunity in a few years, but the
iphone is still the largest app store market, so that is what he has been
concentrating on. Mobile development is an awesome opportunity and a very good
area to develop experience in.

------
adrianscott
I don't think you should knock the guy for having experience with a lot of
technologies and mentioning them. Like he mentions 3 languages, c#, Java,
Ruby. (My resume has a lot more and I'm hiring, not job seeking.)

What might help you a bit more in marketing yourself, swdev, is to mention a
bit about some projects and/or accomplishments. hope this helps.

------
vaidhy
I do not see a way to contact you.. My email id is in my profile. Ping me and
we can check it out.

------
maxklein
What about PHP? I have something you will like, but initially, the project is
PHP based.

~~~
x10nd
what about PHP?

~~~
eam
I believe he wants to know if the poster knows php as he didn't list it on the
post.

------
braindead_in
I am looking for someone to port our Skype recording plugin to MAC. Can
definitely pay later on.

------
erlanger
Why not just throw yourself into an open source project? Many pay down the
road if you're successful enough, and you get to keep your dignity. More
importantly, you'll know you aren't being exploited.

~~~
mapleoin
Getting into an open source project with the objective of at sometime getting
a paid is a very bad reason to join an open source project. Besides the fact
that there are absolutely no guarantees of that happening the attitude you'd
probably bring to the project wouldn't be beneficial for the community there.

------
charliesome
LOL no thanks

------
x10nd
Your 10 years is a waste of career, if you agree to work free of time, also
its a waste, if you offering for the price of a soda

