
What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me - chaghalibaghali
http://www.itinthed.com/16328/what-taking-my-daughter-to-a-comic-book-store-taught-me
======
po
I can already hear the debate raging about weather or not the images or
particular examples in this article are acceptable or defensible or not. I
think it's totally fine for the comics that this one shop has are there.
Artistic freedom! Great! What's not super is that it's really the only kind.
It's like netflix with only action movies.

This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics
that don't exist. Those are the problem. It's ok to have super sexed-up comics
in the store, but it's really sad that's _all_ they have.

Japanese manga is fully of sexy, weird, objectifying stuff that most people
really wouldn't want their kids to see, but go to a bookstore in Japan and
you'll also see bookcase after bookcase of manga totally appropriate for all
ages with young girls pressing their nose into them. Stories about teenage
girls getting picked on at school or trying to meet the right guy or saying
stupid things in class. Stories about girls who are in bands and office
workers and every possible thing.

I think the comic industry, video games, tech, and geek culture in general are
all going through growing pains as they find adoption in a larger market. We
need more articles like this helping people realize what a "normal" comic shop
could look like. The comics we have today would still be in there, there would
just be more variety and the market for comics would be healthier.

It's actually a better scenario for everyone.

~~~
rprospero
I know exactly how you feel. For the past year, my main gaming rig has been on
another continent and I've been making do with what I could play on a cruddy
little netbook running Linux.

It's probably been my best year of gaming ever.

I've been an old west robot prospector.

I've seen a man have sex with a giant goldfish.

I've tried to get a mouse to wear a hat.

I've consoled a grieving child.

After all that was done, I got a small amount of my hardware back and I killed
some zombies. That was awesome, too. In fact, it was more awesome than it had
been in a long time, since the variety had removed a great deal of the
staleness.

It's the same with comics. I want to read a comic about a gay college student
coming out to his parents. I want to read a comic about a goat that's also a
political prisoner. I want to read a comic about a child learning to cope with
the death of a parent. I still want to read a comic about a preternaturally
buxom woman throwing a bus, but I want to read other things, too.

~~~
detaro
The indie game equivalent are web comics. There are really well made and
interesting ones out there, although finding them isn't always easy. For some,
printed versions are also available.

~~~
angersock
Going to have to second this.

There's a whole range of comics catering to those more esoteric (and often
quite boring, frankly) storylines, and a good many of them have books for
sale.

Check out _Something Positive_ (terrible people), _Stand Still, Stay Silent_
(kid friendly but a little dark, beautiful art), _Dumbing of Age_ (ugh, but
some people like it), _Vattu_ (kid friendly, nice art, coming-of-age),
_Schlock Mercenary_ (goofy, sometimes a little mature but kid friendly),
_Gunnerkrigg Court_ (female protagonists), or any of several other dozens. All
of those have books out, I believe, except for maybe SSSS.

EDIT:

 _Something Positive_ is probably the best-written webcomic out there today,
with the best characters and dialog and plot--it's only flaw is that it might
be a bit raw and inaccessible to people younger than teenagers (the first
strip being a mean abortion joke probably doesn't help).

~~~
jff
_Something Positive_ is a wall-of-text comic which, unfortunately also has
very bad writing in its walls of text.

I'm embarrassed to say I read the entire thing in high school in 2004, but in
my defense I was starved for content and didn't know any better.

~~~
angersock
So, there's been 11 years of plot since then. But hey, that's cool, to each
their own.

------
perakojotgenije
I've never understood Americans' obsession with superhero comics. When I was a
kid I was reading Asterix[1], Gaston Lagaffe[2], Spirou et Fantasio[3], Lucky
Luke[4], Prince Valiant[5], The Phantom[6] and similar stuff. Of course, I've
read Superman, Batman and Spiderman also but at least I've had a choice. I
can't understand why they don't exist in US, why are the only comic books
Americans know superhero comics?

[1][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix)

[2][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaston_%28comics%29](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaston_%28comics%29)

[3][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirou_et_Fantasio](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirou_et_Fantasio)

[4][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Luke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Luke)

[5][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Valiant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Valiant)

[6][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phantom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phantom)

~~~
bane
Many of the non-superhero comic books in the U.S. end up being adult themed
for various reasons. Even many notable French artists are only known here for
their work in magazines like Heavy Metal.

One I grew up with (that I probably shouldn't have had as a child) was the
Conan the Barbarian comics. Definitely not a superhero title, and definitely
skewed towards the adult demographic.

Asterix has tried to penetrate the U.S. market several times, but the style
says "newspaper comic strip" to Americans and that's where it got stuck.

Prince Valiant is also an American comic, shown mostly in newspapers.

Spirou et Fantasio looks excellent, I don't think there's ever been a
concerted effort to translate the title into English.

Same with Gaston.

I personally think there's a deep well of wonderful French comics that have
yet to really make it into the American market: Valérian and Laureline,
Blueberry, Arzach, etc. Where the artwork and writing are wonderful. But then
again, I think Arzach and other Moebius works ended up here under the Heavy
Metal books, which _are_ widely known among late-teen early adult readers.

~~~
coroxout
I don't know about any previous attempts but Cinebook are working on Spirou et
Fantasio in English - they're still ongoing but they're not in the original
order (the 7 so far are 5 80s Tome & Janry titles followed by two Franquin 50s
titles) so who knows how many they plan to do.
[http://www.cinebook.co.uk/index.php?cPath=182](http://www.cinebook.co.uk/index.php?cPath=182)

It's a British English translation but I think any UK/US differences will be
fairly small compared to the cultural differences from the original source
era. I have books 2 and 5 and to be honest the racial stereotypes in book #2,
from 1987, are more troubling than anything I remember in book #5, from 1952!

~~~
bane
Fantastic! I'll have to seek these out.

I almost keep wanting to take some time to learn some basic French so I can
read French comics. (I know it sounds kind of trite, but whatever motivates I
suppose).

I was surprised the first time I went to France, I was more or less able to
make out the gist of the majority of the Museum placards and explanations when
there wasn't an English translation available. Common ancestor, French
influence, Latin and all that.

------
vertex-four
For those who honestly believe that women will never want to read comics -
look into webcomics. A huge proportion of the reader base for a good,
PG-13(-ish) webcomic will likely be female, and there's a number of webcomics
that are targeted towards women. A number of these comics will eventually be
printed and sold, usually via the Internet, sometimes at conventions.

I went to the Thoughtbubble Comic Convention last year in the UK, and returned
with a hefty bag full of comics that do not exaggerate sexual characteristics
(or, in fact, mention sex at all in most cases), focusing on good art and a
compelling storyline. Some of these are webcomics, some were designed to be
sold as graphic novels and serial comics.

The comic book store is a remarkably poor selection of what's out there, and I
think they might've got themselves into a recursive image problem - they stock
primarily comics for a certain audience, so only that audience go there, so
any change is not welcomed.

~~~
washadjeffmad
Oh yeah, Cucumber Quest
([http://cucumber.gigidigi.com](http://cucumber.gigidigi.com)) is pretty
excellent for any age and has multiple female protagonists.

~~~
vertex-four
Oh wow! I remember being introduced to that, and thought it was really cute,
but stopped reading it due to real life things. I'll have to bookmark and
catch up again.

------
vidarh
Having recently been on a comics binge after 20+ years of reading very few US
comics and only slightly more European comics, and definitively not being very
sensitive to this issue, I must admit it's still _very_ much more noticeable
today. The number of "lets make sure her ass shows" "shots" is much higher
than I remember. Occasionally you even have characters comment on it. I'd
think that if this was as prevalent when I was in my teens, I'd have much more
vivid memories of it.

Most of the characters that were clearly targeted at children when I grew up
are now clearly targeted at adults or at least teenagers. E.g. compare X-Men,
Spiderman or Avengers from the last 10 years with the 1980's. The dialogue and
over-exposition and extensive abuse of soliloquies alone in the 80's Marvel
was something I didn't even remember from when reading it as a kid, but which
makes a lot of them unreadable to me except for the nostalgia today (compare
with Alan Moore's legendary Swamp Thing run which has kept fantastically), but
the drawings were also lot less "realistic" and so I at least don't remember
the same amount of overly sexualized images.

But at the same time, as some of the commenters on the article points out,
there _are_ also a number of titles with characters that fit better for
younger readers, and some of them with female leads, and generally more
diverse such as the new Ms Marvel (which is a teenage muslim girl of pakistani
descent) as Marvel in particular seems to want to capture a wider audience.

~~~
facepalm
I could be wrong, but weren't X-Men, Spiderman and the like always in the
trash department of comics? From a European perspective it always seemed so.
Sure they have a lot of fans, but they are not really representative of
quality comics. (and by trash I mean silly stereotypes and exaggerations are
basically implied).

~~~
vidarh
The entire US superhero genre, with some notable exceptions, were in the
"trash department of comics". You are right they are not representative of
quality comics, but they were and are representative of a large segment of
what sells.

Though especially in Europe there's a wider segment of non-superhero comics
that sells well (and often outsells Marvel/DC titles by a wide margin), and
that is not nearly as sexualised - see my comment elsewhere. But these are
very poorly represented in most comic stores in English speaking countries.

The high brow stuff, even in Europe, sold - and sells - in far smaller
quantities.

------
cwyers
My daughter is seven, and she comes with me to the comic book shop several
times a month. She has 2-3 comics a week on her pull list -- Scooby Doo,
Scooby Doo Team-Up, Adventure Time, Regular Show, Tiny Titans (until it goes
back on hiatus again), My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic. We just got into an
arguement the other day -- I am NOT buying two copies of Unbeatable Squirrel-
Girl a month, she can just borrow mine. Get yourself a copy of the Diamond
catalog (it's right there in the store, or you can normally find the solicits
on the publisher's websites -- look for Boom and IDW especially, in addition
to the Big Two), find stuff your daughter might like, and tell the store to
order it for you. Or go to a different comic book store, if they won't. I've
been going to the same comic book shop for years now, even though there's five
shops closer (I drive by at least one comic book shop on the way to my regular
shop), because they'll order what I want, and they even let me know when
there's things they think she might want to read.

~~~
impostervt
Thanks for that list, going to buy some of them for my daughter now.

------
clarkevans
I might tend to disagree with the author's final conclusion, that his daughter
is too young to understand (at least about sexism and double standards, if not
sex). Talking about this subject with your daughter when she brings it up is
absolutely appropriate. There is lots of societal pressure on very young girls
to fit a specific mold. It starts with very mundane differences... like
short/long hair.

Two weeks ago, for example, my daughter and I had a play date with a friend
and his son. As we're leaving the basketball court, and putting on our winter
jackets, my daughter says to him: "that's a cool jacket". To which the son
replies: "this is a BOY jacket". My daughter laughed and said: "that's silly".

Anyway, speaking of Comics, PaperCutz has some very nice ones that my 5 year
old daughter loves:
[http://papercutz.com/comics/monster](http://papercutz.com/comics/monster)

~~~
cauterized
His daughter.

~~~
clarkevans
Thank you for correcting me; I originally wrote "her daughter" when I meant
"his daughter".

------
tsmarsh
I had a similar 'revelation' with violence in video games. I knew a lot of
games were violent, but it wasn't until I found my 2 year old son watching me
murder human after human with a crossbow in Tomb Raider that I 'got it'. It
has ruined AAA video games for me.

I solved the problem by buying a Wii U. I'm not sure why that's better. I have
killed hundreds of pikmin, squashed hundreds of goomba and worst of all, used
the blue shell in anger. It's still incredibly violent, but I'm not willfully
enjoying a murder simulator.

~~~
talmand
I could be wrong but it seems you have issues with the idea of games for
adults and games for kids. The fact that a game is unsuitable for your child
to play, or even watch you play, prevents you from enjoying certain games
seems just wrong. Did you stop watching movies rated PG-13 or higher as well?

And why is it wrong for young children to understand the concept of life and
death? I mean, an overly gory game is one thing but I don't think my ten year
old slaughtering opponents by the dozens in Minecraft is going to cause her to
grow up with psychopathic urges.

~~~
scott_s
You missed his point. Once he saw what he was doing _from his child 's
perspective_, he was uncomfortable with it. Note that this is distinct from
being uncomfortable with his child seeing what he is doing.

I had a similar reaction after not playing many games during grad school,
which was 2003 - 2010. After graduating, I picked up a PS3. Some games it
wasn't too much of an issue (such as Mass Effect), but in others, it was
startling (such as Bioshock Infinite).

~~~
talmand
I think you missed my point, which is if he was uncomfortable with his child
watching him play such games, don't let them watch such games. His negative
reaction to "AAA" games in general because of that is what I found odd. If he
no longer found the games appealing due to that then I suppose that's cool.
But there are games in that space that don't fit that style of gameplay.

~~~
scott_s
Again, I think you're missing it. He's not uncomfortable with his child
watching him play such games. (Well, maybe he is, but that's not his point.)
It was knowing that his child was watching him play such games that gave him
the perspective for _himself_ to see playing those games differently. He
gained new perspective.

------
spuz
Maybe it's me but I cannot figure out what point the post is making. What
exactly does the author 'get' now? How does the sexualisation of comic book
characters relate to how women experience the tech industry? I'm not saying
there isn't a link, but the author doesn't explain it from his point of view.

I have to admit I am a little discouraged by the way the author handles his
interactions with his daughter. To explain something to your child as being
for "older people" and to dismiss her questions with "Daddy's thinking, don't
worry about it" seems to parallel the way adult women are treated by men. It's
not my place to criticise how a parent behaves with their children but in an
article that talks about the problems of empathy and understanding another's
point of view it still seems that the author doesn't quite 'get it'.

~~~
vidarh
It sounds like what he "gets" is how hard it is to notice a lot of the
sexualization when you don't get to see it from their side.

It's easy to e.g. dismiss the way female superheroes (and villains) are being
dismissed with references to how the men are also in tight outfits (as you can
find examples of in this thread). It's harder to dismiss the difference
between your son having no problems finding something he likes vs. your
daughter being _put off_ by the depictions of women in the same series.

~~~
spuz
Ok, that makes sense. I guess I can see how that kind of dissonance would then
apply when thinking about women and technology.

~~~
Fomite
Consider the number of replies on HN and other sources that are essentially
"Well I don't see it..." or "Not at my office..." rather than taking women at
their word for their own experience.

~~~
cpncrunch
The problem is that sometimes when sexism is claimed - such as at github - it
turns out not to be sexism at all. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but when
you have false positives like this, it makes you want to see some evidence.

------
virtualritz
This is an American problem. In Europe I grew up with Tin Tin, Jo, Zette &
Joko but also John Difool and Nikopol.

Got to a comic store in Paris an there's an abundance of comics that are
'real' and kids friendly. No boobies or asses etc.

~~~
k-mcgrady
I find this interesting when you think America is considered to be much more
prudish than Europe. Anecdotally it seems that although sex and nudity is less
taboo in Europe it isn't abused in the way it is in America.

~~~
icebraining
It's not really that weird, though; both behaviors are a result of a lack of
maturity dealing with the subject, as taboos often are.

In a comparable situation, the Catholic countries which were/are more devoted
(and often fanatic, such as in the Inquisition) are also the ones that have
the most blasphemous slang and insults. Spain in particular has a whole host
of them involving religious figures (God, the Virgin Mary, etc) and
scatological acts.

------
k-mcgrady
I'm surprised at the number of comments in this thread excusing it because of
the market. The fact that nearly everyone who has made that point felt the
need to create a new account to do so is very telling.

The market is influenced heavily by human beings. And no human being is
morally perfect. There are lots of comics that sexualise women because there
are lots of guys who, for some reason, enjoy seeing sexual cartoons. The
people who draw comics, for some reason, also seem to enjoy drawing comics
like this. That doesn't excuse the problem. There have been markets for plenty
of things that we decided as a society aren't morally right to sell anymore.

~~~
vilda
That's the typical conflict between liberals and left wings in politics. The
conflict between freedom and "good". In this case freedom of artistic
expression on one side, and anti-sexualism of women (unisex) on other side.

~~~
k-mcgrady
>> "In this case freedom of artistic expression on one side, and anti-
sexualism of women (unisex) on other side."

To be clear I would never advocate against artistic freedom. The problem is
with the big comic book companies. They should make the decision that they
aren't going to sexualise women in comics for no good reason anymore. The
artists who truly enjoy making that work can continue to do so at another
company, through self-publishing etc.

~~~
unreal37
You can't just trample on people's rights because you disagree with them. Nor
say "it's OK that it exists, it just can't be popular."

~~~
k-mcgrady
How is that trampling on anyones rights? Nobody has the right to be popular...

~~~
npizzolato
What? It's not the right to be popular. It's the right to artistic freedom,
including sexualized comic books, regardless of whether or not you're popular.

~~~
k-mcgrady
And if you read the next comment up in the thread I wrote that I would never
advocate against artistic freedom. I'm saying the major companies should look
at the situation, realise it's not right and stop publishing highly sexualised
comics. That doesn't mean the people that really want to draw those can't.
They can continued find another publisher, or self publish.

------
josefresco
Ok so I have a daughter about the same age, and recently introduced her to
comics (I was never a comic person).

I randomly picked up some weird Disney themed comic books at a flea market and
showed them to my daughter who kept them in her bed. She ended up liking them,
and so I casually started searching for comics for younger children.

In the city I am not, so my shopping started at Amazon.com - where I easily
found a comic appropriate:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1401216684/](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1401216684/)

So yes, there is a large segment of comic books that is marketed towards horny
teenagers, and overgrown horny teenagers and yes, you local comic shop
probably doesn't cater to the under 10/female crowd. However, the content is
easy to find, and it doesn't involve exposing your children to your creepy
local comic store.

------
rostasteve
I had a similar realization a few months ago. On special occasions people at
the office will photoshop someone's face onto a superhero and send it around.

When it came time for my female manager's face to be put on a superhero, I had
a seriously hard time finding a SINGLE non sexualized picture of a well known
female superhero. Try it -- pick a female superhero and do a google image
search. Then count the number of pages you have to navigate before you find a
picture that you'd photoshop your manager onto.

------
johnchristopher
That feels weird to me because I like comics (I am from Europe, so "european
comics" is a weird name for what I'd roughly translate to `Drawn stories` or
`graphic novels`) and there are a lot of interesting indie or ya comics out
there ( _edit_ : I mean, in the US too).

I suppose comics bookstore are just dump ground for Marvel/DC/Images/DH
production of the week ?

For a 8-12 years-old, of the top of my mind:
[http://www.mouseguard.net/](http://www.mouseguard.net/) and ___lmgt_ __.

There are also the translated comics from Europe.

But I understand these are not weekly `updated` and that might not appeal to
an american audience (cultural heritage).

~~~
vidarh
As a Norwegian (where translated French and Belgian titles as well as US
translated imports and a wide range of our own production tends to be
available in nearly every grocery store, gas station or corner store), who now
lives in the UK (very similar comic culture to the US, and with very limited
own production) and who have visited a few US comic stores too:

The US market is dominated by superhero comics, with some book versions of
newspaper strips, and a small segment of other stuff. From a non-UK European
point of view, it's a very strange experience. Though I love the superhero
comics, I also grew up with a wide range of alternatives.

The first time I went into a comic store in the UK was a shocking experience.
Not least because of how thin and filled with ads the US stuff was.

Basically the US format is to bombard the market with a massive number of
titles, fill it with ads, and pump out a tiny number of pages each issue.

When there was a regular translated Spiderman title in Norway, it was edited
together from the stories in something like 4-5 different US titles, in order
to get a single magazine of sufficient number of pages to be viable in the
Norwegian market. Trying to publish multiple titles for a single character
would be seen as suicide. Instead the Scandinavian approach is generally to
publish titles with a single "headline" character and then guest stints of a
few pages of smaller characters. When guest series gets popular, they get to
try out their own titles.

Some main titles get odd in that they get a level of popularity whereby even
if the main series may not be drawn any more the magazine is kept alive, and
eventually the guest series kinda "takes over" more and more - Calvin and
Hobbes survived that way as a monthly title in Norway for a decade after
Watterson ended the series.

I think the US publishers basically have shot themselves in the foot this way,
by creating an image for comics as cheap and trashy childrens entertainment,
and so massively limiting their audience, as reflected in the extremely low
sales numbers even for the top series.

------
ChicagoDave
I had the exact same experience about 6 years ago...my second oldest daughter
(I have four) wanted comic books. She'd found some cool ones about Mary Jane
Watson that were probably young adult-ish in story, but the drawings were
pretty okay (nothing overtly sexual).

So we went to a comic book store and immediately the guy behind the counter
jumped out and steered my kids to a very small corner in the front of his
store. He looked me in the eye and said, "They really need to stay in this
section."

I look at the rest of this very large store and it's a few teenagers, but
mostly middle-aged men. The image I got in my head was not one of the
defensible comic-book reader, but of a soft-porn environment.

So we looked at the kids comics and it was Archie and stuff. Nothing that my
daughter wanted because she wanted the "drama" and "serious" tone...without
the hyper-sexualized stories and images. We asked the owner and he said there
was no market for those comics. They (the publishers) tried a few, and he
named the exact comic my daughter had found, but those just didn't sell.

So we left with a handful of replacement comics, but we never went again and
my daughter moved on, never even considering a comic book again. She reads YA
novels now.

The YA novel industry is huge. I really don't understand why there's no market
for YA comic books (not graphic novels). It seems odd and sad.

------
daktanis
I worked at a comic shop for 4 years, we pride ourselves on having a good
"Kids/all ages" section of stuff that was more in line with what kids saw on
TV; Justice League, The Avengers, Young Justice, Batman Brave and the Bold,
avatar the last Airbender, adventure time, etc. That shop sounds like they
need to stock better.

------
fifthesteight
It's really sad to me how all of us in our industry are getting slapped across
the face day in and day out about how unfairly, unequally and unjustly women
are treated in our industry and peripheries.

You gents are too smart to still 'not get it.' I'm at the point where I see it
as willful ignorance.

And I'm tired of all of it.

------
bane
It's no coincidence that Comic Books and Video Games have gone hand in hand. A
long time ago there used to be quite a number of comics that targeted young
kids, girls and people other than the 11-15 year old male demographic. There's
also been lots of effort put into making games that will appeal to people
outside of that demographic.

You could say, numbers don't lie, that those titles weren't being sold in
enough quantities to keep them alive...and in some sense that's true. But how
many ultra-niche comics with bizarre indie storylines stay alive year after
year?

Actually a very large number of women I know ended up just reading Manga, they
managed to find storylines and characterizations that they enjoyed. And now
those women are watching cartoons, movies and dramas based on those same
Manga. Most comic book stores you go into have a Manga section these days. But
Manga is also full of titles with lots of sexualization. Like anything you
have to be a smart consumer and not write off an entire class of
entertainment, like movies, just because adult film stores exist.

It's the same with video games, after decades of struggle to find the market,
some surveys are showing that women make up a significant portion of computer-
game players: with leading games like The Sims, Bejeweled and WoW having huge
populations of women playing them.

So the market is there, it's just that the makers are not doing a good enough
job of hitting that market. Console game makers are just now starting to learn
from computer game makers, and we're starting to see decent titles (mostly PC
ports) to woo the other 50% of the market. But they too have really put out
some crap trying to find that market.

But here's the truth, the women in mainstream super hero comic books are
barely anatomically correct, but so are the men. Average characters possess
exaggerated musculature not even the Greek gods possessed. And everybody has
fantastical powers. These aren't meant to be forms of entertainment that
represent reality...even a little bit. They're meant to be highly exaggerated
depictions of reality, but the vector of exaggeration is very obviously on
stereotypical male vectors.

~~~
saraid216
It's not about anatomical correctness. It's that the sexualization–of both the
male superheroes and the female ones–is explicitly male-based. Female gaze
sexualization looks different.

------
mansilladev
Having a daughter will teach you a lot of things, and give you more
perspectives. Music lyrics, YouTube videos, ads on the billboard/bus, cartoons
and even comics. They'll notice. And you'll notice them noticing.

~~~
rockdoe
I have to say that that combined with the whole GG thing certainly opened up
my eyes how incredibly mysonginist some things and communities are, and how
badly they are in denial of it.

------
edwinjm
I looked in this online Belgian strip store and for the Dutch language market
(quite small demographic), I could find 5 (five) titles for girls! And I'm
pretty sure there's more (Noortje, Tina...)

[http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-mooie-navels-
bestelle...](http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-mooie-navels-
bestellen.asp) [http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-girlz-
bestellen.asp](http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-girlz-bestellen.asp)
[http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-kathys-kat-
bestellen....](http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-kathys-kat-
bestellen.asp) [http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-dance-academy-
bestell...](http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-dance-academy-
bestellen.asp) [http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-claire-
bestellen.asp](http://www.stripweb.be/R-stripverhalen-claire-bestellen.asp)

~~~
facepalm
How did you search? I just searched for "Yoko Tsuno" on that site and they
seem to be available.

~~~
Torgo
Yoko Tsuno comics are really great, by the way. It's disappointing that
Franco-Belgian and Italian comics never get full runs in English.

------
rthomas6
For a young girl, it looks like the new Batgirl might fit the bill well [1].
Not trying to minimize the issue, I just thought the author might like this
for their daughter.

[1]:
[http://36.media.tumblr.com/98dffc116ba398dd71703e02abd7518b/...](http://36.media.tumblr.com/98dffc116ba398dd71703e02abd7518b/tumblr_n8hzz5sz7k1qa10uwo3_1280.jpg)

[http://40.media.tumblr.com/f0256cc6e4845526b9b9444935a6b287/...](http://40.media.tumblr.com/f0256cc6e4845526b9b9444935a6b287/tumblr_n8hzz5sz7k1qa10uwo1_1280.jpg)

~~~
daktanis
There are a lot of good options out there, comic shop guy didn't help as much
as my local shop would have.

------
topbanana
These comics aren't aimed at young children, of any gender.

There are comics available for younger ones. Here in the UK my two read The
Phoenix. It would benefit from more female characters, but they both enjoy it
(boy 7, girl 6)

[http://www.thephoenixcomic.co.uk/free-digi-
phoenix/](http://www.thephoenixcomic.co.uk/free-digi-phoenix/)

------
hazz
cached version:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.iti...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.itinthed.com/16328/what-
taking-my-daughter-to-a-comic-book-store-taught-
me&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=b_a4VLURwbtRrKqEkAU)

------
spb
Just recommended the author check out Ryan North's comics:
[https://twitter.com/ryanqnorth](https://twitter.com/ryanqnorth)

Ryan North's the guy who does Dinosaur Comics
([http://www.qwantz.com](http://www.qwantz.com)), and has since been hired to
write the Adventure Time comic and the most recent run of Marvel's Unbeatable
Squirrel Girl.

[http://www.themarysue.com/interview-squirrel-girl-ryan-
north...](http://www.themarysue.com/interview-squirrel-girl-ryan-north/)

This is how I want to see more people solving this problem: not by trying to
shout down the ones responsible (which goads people into _defending
institutional sexism_ to shout back in their defense, ugh), but by just _doing
it right_.

------
prof_hobart
I agree that there's an awful lot of comics aimed squarely at the adolescent
male, but at least in the comic store that my 8 year old daughter likes to go
to, there's also a fair amount that she loves.

Her favourites at the moment are the Happy Happy Clover series, the Powerpuff
Girls and Adventure Time, but there's quite a few others that she's enjoyed as
well. That's alongside all of the books and merchandise for things like Studio
Ghibli, and (nerdy) girl-friendly sci-fi like Dr Who and Star Wars.

As she gets older, I can see that she'll probably start to struggle to find
stuff she still wants to read, but if that comic book store is offering
nothing more than Hello Kitty and Monster High for young girls, you might want
to see if you can find a better comic book store.

~~~
danielweber
(The original site has been HN'd.)

Every "Free Comic Book Day" my family goes down, and my youngest son always
finds entirely appropriate things for him. He love Sonic and Mega Man.

------
misterdai
A bit shocked that he seemed to be allowing his 5 year old son to buy Batman
comics. I recently played catch up on the New 52 Batman series and found them
pretty violent in places, enough that I wouldn't let any young child read
them.

------
ck2
Harvey Quinn isn't a superhero or "role model" either like Superman/Batman.

Ms. Marvel is a good character but of course drawn for men.

And I am bracing myself for the WW movie, I've got a really bad feeling. Wish
it had been Joss Whedon running that show.

Speaking of Whedon, it is too grown up concepts for a seven year old perhaps
but Buffy Season Eight in comic form is pretty great.

------
agentultra
In Toronto and surrounding cities (Canada) things are getting better with
comic stores catering to independent publishers and artists (e.g.:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beguiling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beguiling)).

Many local independent bookstores also contain a "graphic novel" section that
tend to carry independent, literate examples of the medium.

I guess if you haven't been interested in comics for some time it can be
disorienting to walk into any shop without doing a little research first.

Go indie! You'll do much better. One series I'm looking forward to getting my
kids into is Mouseguard. But I also have comics about the fantastic women
pioneers in science, the manhattan project, fairy tales, and so on.

------
robertwalsh0
I've only glanced at the top comments so I may have missed it if someone
already said what I'm gonna. Can we just admit that it's stupid that superhero
female characters are anatomically comical and wearing things they could never
ever fight in?

------
chasing
I feel like he went to the wrong comic store. Or something.

Superhero comics don't interest me in the least (with the exception of the
Watchmen, which I really enjoyed). But there's a ton of more "literary" comic
books out there that are awesome.

In fact, the last comic I read was "Annie Sullivan and the Trials of Helen
Keller" \-- and it was great! Something a young girl might find really
interesting.

([http://blogs.slj.com/goodcomicsforkids/2012/04/18/review-
ann...](http://blogs.slj.com/goodcomicsforkids/2012/04/18/review-annie-
sullivan-and-the-trials-of-helen-keller/))

------
peterwwillis
He's JUST NOW REALIZING this? Modern comics are the most sexually objectifying
medium in the world, second only to straight pornography.

I always thought it was fucked up, even as a kid, how crazily unrealistic and
sexualized comics were. Like, _I knew it was wrong_ that women were being
portrayed this way. But I still bought the comics of course.

If you think the way women are portrayed in video games and comics is _normal_
, you are honestly messed up. The most scary thing about this article is that
it took him this long to figure this out.

------
MichaelMoser123
Hello? they have the Winx comics series
[http://winx.wikia.com/wiki/Winx_Club_Comic_Series](http://winx.wikia.com/wiki/Winx_Club_Comic_Series)
Here the main heroes are girl fairies in high school (greetings from Harry
Potter) and they even have a fairy of technology who has to fix things; my
daughters (five and eight) like these.

Also in Germany they have Donald Duck series (quite popular); don't know why
they don't have that in the US

------
jrs235
Site is down. Cached copy link:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:r3wdwWW...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:r3wdwWWnAjoJ:www.itinthed.com/16328/what-
taking-my-daughter-to-a-comic-book-store-taught-me/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

------
Glyptodon
It's kind of interesting - I can think of a number of comics that don't fall
into the sexualized gender trap, but they're all comics that have no business
being read by a 7 year old, which seems almost backwards.

In a lot of ways I guess comics aren't really for kids anymore, which seems
kind of sad.

------
rathernot
If the OP is reading this (I had a connection error when I tried to register
to comment there) check out the Mary Jane comic aimed at teenage girls. [0]

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-
Man_Loves_Mary_Jane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man_Loves_Mary_Jane)

------
misterdai
While I can understand how part of his post is about the way women are
portrayed physically in those comics. I'm not so sure on his examples he
picked in reference to his children and their unsuitability. I already
commented on how I wasn't sure if Batman was suitable for his 5 year old,
given the nature of some lines, but some examples he picked in reference to
his 7 year old daughter were a stretch.

Power Girl: Haven't fully checked but appears to be part of a line rated T for
Teen.

Harley Quinn (Batman Detective Comics): Rated T for Teen.
[http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFg5MDA=/z/axsAAOSwD0lUlJHV/$_...](http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFg5MDA=/z/axsAAOSwD0lUlJHV/$_57.JPG)

Perhaps comic book stores should designate areas for different ratings of
comics. Or comic companies should agree to make the rating larger. Or some
parents need to become more aware that comics are just for kids, the same way
that computer games aren't either.

~~~
scott_s
I think you're missing the point: his daughter knows those characters through
pop culture. She wants to read those comics. But the art for those comics is
clearly telling her: you are not our audience. And this is most of the store.

The male characters are male power fantasies, and appeal to his son. But the
female characters are _not_ female power fantasies, meant to appeal to women.
They are male idealized-woman fantasies, and do not appeal to his daughter.
That is what he realized.

~~~
Fomite
Exactly. Men in comics are male power fantasies. Women in comics are _also_
male fantasies. The message that these kinds of covers send to his daughter,
or women in general is "This is not for you".

~~~
surge
Welp. That's cause it's not. She would not be their target audience anymore
then Grand Theft Auto is.

They have other comics for her:
[http://www.kidscomics.com/Home/1/1/60/1046](http://www.kidscomics.com/Home/1/1/60/1046)

Breaking Bad is also pop culture, the problem comes in when Lego makes Lego
Breaking Bad figures, then your daughter wants to watch the show.

------
rayiner
As the father of a daughter, and someone who normally gets worked up about
this sort of thing, I don't see the big deal. I've always viewed comics as
equivalent to daytime soap operas made more pornographic to suit teenage male
tastes. What value is there in trying to capture this bit of culture for
girls? Is it going to lead to higher paying jobs or more equal gender roles in
the home? Is it going to lead to greater fulfillment in their personal lives?

To me, asking how we can get girls more interested in comics or sci-fi is like
asking how we can address the gender imbalance in ditch digging jobs.

~~~
vidarh
Consider that your impression of comics is coloured by apparently (based on
your description) mostly having been shown a single, very limited segment (US-
style superhero segments).

Comics are no more limited to that, than TV are limited to daytime soap
operas.

The value isn't in trying to get girls to read US-style male-focused superhero
stories, but in pointing out that the current comics most widely distributed
in the US represents a tiny fraction of what is available.

Imagine what TV would be like if all that was on was daytime soap operas.
That's the US comic market. If your TV was like that, would it not be nice to
get a wider selection?

> Is it going to lead to greater fulfillment in their personal lives?

Role models - even when depicted in fiction - matters:

[http://www.slashgear.com/uhura-recounts-her-epic-talk-
with-m...](http://www.slashgear.com/uhura-recounts-her-epic-talk-with-mlk-jr-
for-neil-degrasse-tyson-21266121/)

~~~
rayiner
My comment was really directed at Marvel/DC comics. My mom grew up reading
Tintin (in Bangladesh!) but when an American talks about "comicbooks" that's
not really what they're thinking of. I think those sorts of comics are so
different you're talking about a different industry almost.

------
djent
It seems like comic books are not what you are looking for for your child. Try
_graphic novels_

------
moomin
Quite a lot of people appear to be under the impression this is about comics.

------
SeanLuke
Ugh. This website has modified the behavior of two-fingered scrolling and
broke two-fingered magnification on OS X. How do I send glitter to the idiot
who decided to break Mac users' conventions?

------
RemoteWorker
"Error establishing a database connection"

------
jccalhoun
I don't know who thought thought the new Harley Quinn outfit was better than
the old one but they were wrong.

------
JohnE008
Breaking news! Father takes 7-year old daughter to a comic shop for older,
male audiences. Daughter is offended! Misogyny, etc! Males are creeps!
Sexualizing women in comics is offensive to women and therefore immoral! It's
not like women can choose not to read such comics. It is a sign that you live
a life of highest quality if you can worry about sexualization in fictional
comics.

~~~
copsarebastards
...so you didn't read the article. I'm not sure why you feel the need to
announce that.

~~~
JohnE008
I read it word for word. That is pretty much what he wants to communicate.

~~~
copsarebastards
Just because your eyes passed over the letters doesn't mean you read it. You
went in with preconceived notions of what it was going to say and you came out
without those preconceptions changed. Reading requires that you actually spend
time trying to understand what someone is saying.

I admit it's not entirely clear what the author's point is, but that doesn't
mean you get to fill in your own and pretend like the author said it.

I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of feminism, but there's nothing particularly
outrageous being said here.

------
graycat
The seven year old girl was correct: It was not really a _comic book_ store in
the sense she had in mind. Instead it was a store with _comic books_ for
teenage boys and men and even there a fairly narrow audience. The store was
definitely not for children, especially not for grade school or younger girls.

A lesson she might have learned: It's a big world out there, and some of it,
e.g., the view of women in that store, is not good, and sometimes, too often,
in life we have to be selective.

It's been a while since my brother and I were in grade school and he was
collecting comic books. So, only vaguely do I remember Donald Duck and Batman,
and those comic books weren't right up against the line, the other side of
which was porn.

Instead, say, take your seven year old daughter to a music store, not one for
_pop_ music but one where seven year old girls have a nice violins and are
learning the "Preludio" to the Bach E major _Partita_ for unaccompanied
violin,

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KYRdRnnBYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KYRdRnnBYw)

with Hillary Hahn, the _Chaconne_ of Vitali,

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4B1ifcWa9o](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4B1ifcWa9o)

with David Oistrakh, the Bach "Chaconne"

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tezau3hlRxs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tezau3hlRxs)

with Alina Ibragimova, or the Bach Busoni piano version

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOFflFiLlT8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOFflFiLlT8)

with Valentina Lisitsa, a store where the seven year old violin students are
looking forward to playing the violin part to the Wagner "Prelude to Act I" of
_Lohengrin_

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7prUFflX0_E](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7prUFflX0_E)

with Otto Klemperer, also from the same opera _In fernem land_

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHHCeEO_0-4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHHCeEO_0-4)

with Peter Anders and, of course, especially since she is a seven year old
girl, starting at about 3:00, the bridal chorus

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebx9KhcnyLM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebx9KhcnyLM)

with Andris Nelsons. Of course, also tell her the story of _Lohengrin_.

More? Sure: Camille Saint Saens "Mon coeur s'ouvre à ta voix" from _Samson et
Dalila_

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X79OkSayPSw](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X79OkSayPSw)

with Elina Garancas.

More generally expose her to places and media content where girls and women
are actually doing things, good things. E.g., currently there is the _Nova_
program on he LHC and the Higgs boson at

[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/big-bang-
machine.html](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/big-bang-machine.html)

Two detectors there found the same basic result, and one of the detector
groups was led by a woman. That program has more examples of women doing
things.

Yes, there's a lot out there where the women are all interested in nose jobs,
breast implants, micro skirts, and thong panties, but there's also a lot out
there for women being productive, building a home and family with love,
victory over loneliness, being productive, and with pride in accomplishments
and emotional and financial security.

Get her a copy of the classic E. Fromm, _The Art of Loving_ which is about
getting emotional security, exchanging knowledge, caring, respect, and
responsiveness, and a role for religion -- best thing I ever read to
understand people and personality.

Maybe take her to some Saturday classes in cooking school where she can learn
to make, say, some really good cookies she could make and share with her
friends, e.g., at school. If I were 7-9 and a girl 7 gave me 2-3 really good
cookies she had baked herself, then she would have a good friend for years,
prom dates, etc. If she could play classical music on piano or violin or sing
opera, even better.

How to get her interested in working hard on, say, piano or violin? One way:
Let her hear some of the music that is easy to like. Then let her see some
people working hard on learning piano or violin and liking it. Example: A
sister in law tried to get her daughter interested in piano. No luck. At the
farm at Christmas, I was upstairs working on the Bach "Chaconne", and a niece,
about 7, came up to watch. I put my violin under her left chin, showed her how
to hold the violin and the bow, and to draw the bow across the strings. The
next day her father asked me: "How much is a violin going to cost me?". It
works.

More? Sure: Get her the DVD of the Australian Ballet performance of _Coppelia_
\-- it's a total sweetheart story, nearly all about young women, and where
nearly everyone on stage is a young woman. And the actual young women on the
stage, the real performers and not the characters they play in the story, are
examples of astoundingly hard work, _productivity_ , and, in particular, are
just fantastic as actresses, artists, and athletes, especially aerobic
athletes.

Of course, at Christmas, get her all dressed up in some sort of a princess
outfit -- when I was that age the style was dresses with red or black velvet
with lots of satin ribbons and bows -- and take her to a good performance of
_The Nutcracker_. Also get her a Nutcracker doll. It could be one of the
happiest times of her life, make her feel more secure as a girl, and be a
memory she will have and value forever.

Also get her DVDs of some of the movies from American Girl. They may also have
some retail stores it would be better for her to visit than that fake _comic
book_ store.

For books, maybe Nancy Drew? Or something similar but more recent?

Since she's seven, a girl, and bright, it may be that she could get good at
French with blinding speed -- try to find a way. Talk to some people who know
about how a girl of seven could learn French. Maybe have her join a group,
e.g., where also she could meet other girls learning French. Maybe try a local
_Alliance Française_. Maybe try some Internet learning materials.

Connection with her being a girl? At that age, typically girls have much
better verbal aptitude than the boys and are just fantastic at learning a
language.

Be sure to have her learn _touch typing_ \-- one of the best skills to have in
life now. Talk to some people who know how a girl of seven could learn touch
typing, get her some materials, and pay attention her efforts, encourage and
praise them, and help her learn.

Then encourage and praise her in _writing_ : Have her start writing on nearly
anything -- letters to grandma, how to train a kitten or puppy, how to bake
terrific cookies, how to tie a bow tie, how to wash out stains, how to iron a
dress, how to sew on a button, how to use a text editor, how to use Facebook,
blog posts (anonymous), etc. Then get her started on English grammar --
sentences, subjects, verbs, prepositions and prepositional phrases, adjectives
and adverbs. Then make friends with a high school English teacher (nearly all
women, right?) and have that teacher help your daughter improve her writing.
Then have your daughter write some longer pieces with sections, subsections,
table of contents, figures, references, etc. on anything: If your family
moves, then have her write on moving to a new house. On getting a puppy or
kitten. Whatever. Get her going on writing, then reading, the more in writing,
then more in reading.

For being better in talking to her, and to others, too, get, read, study,
think about, and use

Thomas Gordon, _Parent Effectiveness Training: The Tested New Way to Raise
Responsible Children_.

also called _reflective listening_.

For more, get her several, used will be fine, high school texts in plane
geometry, pick a favorite, use the others for alternative sources, and work
through plane geometry with her, that is, get the fun of doing the proofs.
Emphasize orthogonality and the Pythagorean theorem: Orthogonality is one of
the most important ideas in all of pure and applied mathematics, mathematical
physics, engineering, multi-variate statistic, and best approximation, e.g.,
in computing, right up to how to do ad targeting on the Internet, Fourier
theory, the fast Fourier transform, digital filtering, etc. Sure: Quite
generally every closed convex set has a unique element of minimum norm, and
quickly get to a _supporting hyperplane_ with orthogonality. Sure, one of the
biggest results in college math is the polar decomposition in linear algebra
and, right, about orthogonal eigen vectors. Can get going on orthogonality
right there in high school plane geometry, and she likely has all the
prerequisites. If not, in a few places take out a few minutes and get her
caught up.

Give her a little on electrons, protons, neutrons, atoms, energy and energy
levels, and chemical bonds. Then, right, presto, bingo, guide her to the
Internet videos of the Eric Lander lectures on biology at MIT, say,

[http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/biology/7-01sc-fundamentals-of-
bi...](http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/biology/7-01sc-fundamentals-of-biology-
fall-2011/)

Also, don't have her miss (get her a bowl of popcorn for the occasion)

[http://www.princeton.edu/WebMedia/flash/lectures/20100419_pu...](http://www.princeton.edu/WebMedia/flash/lectures/20100419_publect_lander.shtml)

with

April 19, 2010,

Eric Lander: "Secrets of the Human Genome"

Sure, have her watch some Brian Greene videos.

Get her a freshman college chemistry book and help her work through it, learn
about NaCl, CaCO3, C-H bonds and methane, gasoline, and converting O and C-H
bonded hydrocarbons to CO2 and H2O -- e.g., as in heating the house, powering
the car, flying an airplane, etc.

Look at the GED materials and get her through all of them by the time she is
8-9. A bright girl of seven should be able to get through all of that in one
not very busy summer.

The GED materials are minimal -- in particular in addition she will need to
get through algebra I and II and trigonometry and high school physics.

Then, to heck with high school -- then get some good advice and guide her in
home schooling through, say, at least the first two years of college. So, for
calculus, just get her some good college calculus books (my view of AP
calculus is that it is to be avoided, skipped, ignored because the authors
didn't understand calculus very well -- similarly for Khan Academy -- repeat,
just get some good college calculus books, period), and, sure, make friends
with a college math prof to help her not get stuck and to stay on track. Then,
sure, have her do college freshman physics -- that's heavily just what
calculus is for.

Then when she goes to college she will be nicely ahead.

"Youth is such a wonderful time of life. Too bad it's wasted on young people."

Don't have her waste hers.

------
elberto34
Garfield, Dilbert, Foxtrot and Calvin and Hobbes is about the extent of my
comic repertoire

Taking a 7 year old to a comic store is like tasking her to a pg 13 movie.. .
Not too surprised it didn't work out. Comics tend to deal with adult themes
and are aimed at older people.

~~~
thret
Archie, Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse, Asterix, Tintin... Old comics, from the
1980's or earlier are pretty safe. These days the audience is 15+ guys. Soft
porn and hardcore violence. Why would he take his 7 year old daughter and 5
year old son to look at that?

For kids that young seeing is believing. My nephew at 6 watched Star Wars over
Christmas. You explain that it isn't real, they are actors in a play, playing
characters - he's been in several plays himself - and then later on he says
'but it must be real, because how could they make a whole planet?'.

~~~
vidarh
> Why would he take his 7 year old daughter and 5 year old son to look at
> that?

Presumably because he himself remembered how it used to be, and did not
realise that the age bracket had shifted so dramatically.

Even US comics used to be kid friendly.

~~~
rockdoe
Early(?) Simpsons had Bart going to the comic book store all the time, and
he's a 10 year old. Sounds like that part of the show has now aged!

------
oldmanjay
Or "The Continuing Saga of Those Who Feel That Everything Must Be For
EVERYONE"

Now with extra moralizing and breathless rhetorical style free of charge.

------
kbart
Why comics? There are plenty of good books (even with pictures) for the girls
of that age. Comics were never supposed to be educational or have any non-
entertainment value and primary tarted at hormones soaked male teens. Take her
to the books store instead. You don't complain that nobody does piano recital
during pop concerts -- either go there or not. Actually, I find annoying the
trend of complaining about anything that does not suite somebody's needs or
attitudes.

~~~
scott_s
Because his kids were enthused about going to a comic book store. Notice that
his little boy found plenty of material for him. The point is, his daughter
clearly got it: that stuff is not _for her_. An entire comic book store, and
none of it for her. That doesn't feel good.

------
facepalm
Except that it's not true that no comics with "normal" female heroines exist.
We had Yoko Tsuno when we were kids, for example. The most recent comics I
bought were Buffy and Fray. You don't have to buy cheesy sex comics - I don't.

That lots of men enjoy comics with exaggerated sex symbols has no bearing on
the offering for the female target democratic.

Same goes for books and movies and so on btw.

In the same vein, it doesn't bother me as a man that there are thousands of
women's magazines, and only very few men's magazines. I just don't care -
nobody is forcing me to buy them, after all. In fact there are zillions of
products in the world I don't care for, and that doesn't make me feel
discriminated against.

------
yarou
Articles like this further reinforce that we have major issues here in America
around sexuality. Why can't we teach our children that sexuality is a positive
thing, not something that's akin to commiting a capital offense? When we
reinforce the negative aspects of sexuality, that leads to abnormal behaviors
like nymphomania and self-destructive tendencies. i understand that there are
gender objectification issues, but I think that misses the point entirely.

~~~
Fomite
Because a great deal of this isn't just about "sexuality", and sexuality isn't
necessarily a positive thing when the message to one gender is "You are an
object to be enjoyed for another's pleasure" and to the other is "Objectify
away! And if you don't, something is wrong with you."

And no one here has suggested it's "akin to committing a capital offense" but
you. "It would be nice to take my young daughter to do something she wanted to
do, and find stories about women with clothing that doesn't look like it's
painted on" is pretty far away from calling something a "capital offense".

~~~
yarou
You missed my point entirely. The reason why women are objectified is that
sexuality is hidden in public in America. That's why hyper sexualized imagery
exists in comic books and the like. This is a unique and peculiar American
problem; posters from other countries don't have the same issues.

~~~
Fomite
I've traveled a good bit of the world, and lived in a number of non-American
countries (including some where sexuality is more...upfront), and hyper-
sexualized imagery of women, and the attendant problems, are hardly a uniquely
American phenomenon.

It might be comforting to believe it to be so, but it's not. Hell, one of the
most problematic comic covers I can think of in the most recent past wasn't
even by an American artist.

------
transfire
Just be honest. Seven year old girls aren't stupid. "Most comics are made for
older guys and teen age boys that don't have girlfriends. So they try to make
them feel better about it by making comics with half-naked big boobed women.
Sad perhaps, but such is life." Then proceed to show her the many comics she
would like, from Archie to Oz, there are still plenty of options. The new Ms.
Marvel is a particular stand out.

Trying to convey this as some sort of social ailment is rather silly. It's
simply human nature. And unless you think we should all become asexual, it
isn't going to change.

------
tiquortoo
If the demographics swing at the edges of the market the center will respond.
Particularly if there is social pressure to do so. This is not a malicious
endeavor it is a market response and we frankly don't have to be so hand-
wringy about it.

~~~
xienze
I agree 100%. I don't understand why everything has to be over-analyzed to
death. Good grief, we're talking about comic books.

I'd love to hear this guy write about taking his daughter to a shop selling
uncensored Japanese Manga. "Maaaaybe our comics aren't so bad after all."

~~~
mangahonthrowwy
All sexual material sold legally in Japan is censored by law.

Many people in this thread are talking about how 'the market should adapt' or
'the market doesn't need to adapt', but I think a more interesting corraly is
that 'the market' is the primary force acting on the culture of this niche.
Japan is lucky to have a diverse comic market, but I think there's an
interesting case to be made for non-market forces to encourage a broader set
of creativity in the comic world, if not for the young girls at the very least
countering the incessant duldrum I find myself stepped in as a consumer.

~~~
xienze
> All sexual material sold legally in Japan is censored by law.

So there's a little black bar where the tentacle is penetrating the woman?

~~~
mangahonthrowwy
I'm not versed enough in the law to answer the spirit of that question, but
the law has chilling effects greater than the letter of it. Adult material is
kept in a separate section, usually with the books sealed in opaque packaging,
and 7-eleven in Japan has removed it's adult section entirely.

------
savanaly
It's kind of a shame for the minority of women or men who prefer to see women
depicted realistically in the comics they read. But that contingent is small
enough that I fear it just isn't viable to serve them. The comics market has
been around awhile and is fiercely competitive, so I think we can be confident
it is delivering the efficient solution as it stands. That said, gradually
shifting the tastes of everyone around you by writing countless articles and
making speeches at conventions etc. is legitimate if you feel that strongly
about it, so more power to them I guess.

------
mojuba
Terrible writing... Some people code like this. You look at what they did and
just wonder why something that can be written in 3 lines is written in 200
lines of code.

~~~
jevgeni
Point made by author is still valid.

------
everyone
I dont see this as an issue. Putting it _very_ bluntly. Comics are (in
general) of low quality (in terms of writing, ideas* ), aimed (in general) at
a specific creepy contingent of society composed of teenage boys or men who
still act like teenage boys. So, who cares about them!? Contemporary media,
games, tv shows, films, music, are filled with and largely composed of
terrible dross. If you're discerning that involves ignoring 99% of media and
almost completely ignoring comics.

*Obviously there are some good comics which I've read (Akira is a good example) but, in my experience, the soaring heights of the greatest writing in comics would be seen as mediocre in another domain.

~~~
eru
[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Creep_shaming](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Creep_shaming)
?

> *Obviously there are some good comics which I've read (Akira is a good
> example) but, in my experience, the soaring heights of the greatest writing
> in comics would be seen as mediocre in another domain.

There's lots of genres like that. Soap operas. Romance novels.

------
talmand
As a father of daughters, I'm waiting for the series of articles that will
help me understand the proper way to have a conversation with them about the
fact that their boyfriends, when they are old enough to have them, do not have
the muscular build nor the attractive looks of common comic book characters
such as Batman, Superman, and so on that they constantly see. Never mind when
they see movies with all those overly attractive male stars.

But all I get are articles about how certain comic books, that they probably
shouldn't be reading anyway, gives them unrealistic expectations of what their
bodies should look like. Plus the fact that will somehow prevent them from
getting a career they want to have.

Anyway, I often take my daughters to the local comic book store that I feel
has an adequate range of comics for all ages and gender. I let them loose to
get what they want. The older one goes for things like Monster High and My
Little Pony. The younger goes for those as well as TMNT and Transformers. I
just let them decide for themselves what kind of comic book reader they want
to be. I feel they'll mostly work it out for themselves. Some people shouldn't
worry so much over such details because in the end it only stifles your kid's
growth as a person. Trying to shield them from the world they live in doesn't
help them in the long run.

~~~
talmand
Thanks for the feedback. I, for one, feel the negativity only reinforces much
of my point.

