

Ask HN: start on my own or negotiate with the employer? - caustic

As an employee I work for a small software company developing a SaaS product, and I see a lot of opportunities to make this product much better. After all we use it on a daily basis and we’ve got plenty of experience with it. I am not talking here about incremental improvements in usability or coming up with some new cool features (although these too). There seems to be a better way to solve the same problem which the product already does by changing the product’s philosophy, its core principles and building new features on top of it. As you may guess this would require a major overhaul, or even more – complete rewrite. If this would be not enough to you, I am not satisfied with the current development platform and thinking about changing it.
I have been thinking really hard and evolving this idea for the last several months and very passionate about it. I haven’t noticed someone has already implemented it, but I’m sure, if done properly, it would become a hit.
Now, what should I do with my idea? Do I have to start working on a new product on my own, or should I go to my employer and convince him there’s a better way to make the same product? There are pros and cons going both ways. If I work on it on my own, I am sure it won’t be stolen and I will have freedom to implement it in the way I see it. But I will have to start a new company from scratch and attract customers one by one. If I negotiate with my employer, I will have access to the already existing resources and customers, but the tricky part to me is how to negotiate properly.
Can you please give some advice about what can I do in a situation like this?
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pedalpete
Seems you have a few competing opinions here, but I think there are a few key
themes that you need to consider 1) Ethical 2) Legal 3) Financial 4) Processes
5) I'm sure their are others

From the sounds of the sounds of things, your boss is still in development.
Has the product you have been working on been released into the wild yet?

It is unethical to be working on a competing product while working for your
employer. However, remember that Woz approached HP with his idea, and they
said no so he went and built Apple.

Legal commitments from non-compete are not always binding. You didn't say what
country or state you are in, but you can check that out yourself. If you are
happy ethically with leaving the company to start a competitor. Note that this
happens all the time. Lots of ad agencies are started by former ad execs who
jump ship and go out on their own, often stealing clients from their former
employer.

Do you really want to start your own business? if so, is this the business you
want to start? or is it just that you like this product? A product does not
make a business. So I'd consider that very carefully as well. Is your
'planned' product so much better than what your current employer that you can
truly build a business around it?

This might be an opportunity for you to learn a TON and get lots of experience
and move up in the company you are working for. If the change is significant
enough, you may be able to put yourself in a position where you are leading
significant parts of the initiative.

In the end, I don't think you can get very far without at least discussing
some things with your current employer, so if the relationship is solid
enough, maybe sit down with them and talk about it. You don't have to give
them your entire product ideas, but let them know that you think they are
going in the wrong direction and see how they take it.

Their reaction could/should be a big eye-opener into what direction you want
to take.

------
akamaka
Fear of violating contracts isn't a valid reason for not pursuing great ideas.
This is what Silicon Valley was built on. If you have investor backing, you'll
have help in handling the legal issues.

A much better reason to try to sell your idea within the company is the
fantastic support you'll have. You're surrounded by people with deep knowledge
of their domain, and it would be nearly impossible to find a co-founder with
that level of experience.

That being said, it's quite likely that the company leadership won't want to
pursue your idea, even if they like it. Maybe they're in a profit making mode,
and don't want to invest and grow. Maybe it would be difficult to get
customers to adopt a totally new product (think of Coke or WordStar in the
1980s).

It's also quite possible that some people love your idea, and others don't. If
you demonstrate the value of your ideas, and people who agree with you see
that you're not being taken seriously, you've just found some potential co-
founders.

Who knows, there may be some guy in sales who's figured out a better way to
market the product, and is also thinking of striking out on his own.

------
swombat
Starting a closely related competing product is not something that can be
reasonably considered ethical. Many contracts prevent you from doing that.
Just because you're not in such a contract, doesn't make it right, though. I
would suggest talking to your employer and remaining on good terms whether or
not you decide to part ways.

~~~
abyssknight
Definitely. It might not be illegal, but it doesn't mean it is right. Tread
lightly.

------
Paul_Johnson
First, read "Things You Should Never Do" by Joel Spolsky
(<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html>) to understand
why the suggestion "lets rewrite this from scratch" might not be well
received.

Second, I think that your employer is ethically entitled to first refusal on
any ideas you come up with, and maybe even a second as well. If they turn you
down then I don't see anything unethical with going off and doing it yourself.
Of course there may be legal issues: talk to a lawyer if you think there might
be some.

Third, don't over-estimate your knowledge of the market and ability to sell to
it. The world is littered with products which were technically better than the
competition, but failed in the market place. You may be better staying put and
trying to work your ideas into the existing product piecemeal.

------
esdaniel
Life's too short (time our most precious commodity) so you have to evaluate
what makes sense in terms of what you are prepared to live with and look back
on - if it's been your ambition to launch a software product then this could
be the perfect time, here's a few soundbites to help you think this through:

Rule #1 Cover your arse - take note of what people say here but these issues
are obstacles to overcome and if you work out the right strategy backed up by
the right advice then things can play nice and life is great... otherwise
you'll get f __ked. So work out how not to get f __ked and know what you
can/can't do from a legal, financial and karma perspective etc. then find the
way to cover yourself and move forwards.

Rule #2 It's a lovely world we live in, all this openness, though it means
competition is rife - don't be fooled into sharing a great idea and losing it,
goes back to #1 about covering your arse

Rule #3 It's best to remember the adage (a) bullshit walks and money talks...
don't faff around thinking about doing this - JFDI - i.e. go build that
prototype in your bedroom that you can tear up/down to demo on an Amazon EC2
image with Mulesource middleware (for example it's easy to get a great demo
running in the cloud that only costs you for the time it runs!) and prove this
can be done because until you've actually got something to show, discuss and
demonstrate it's a load of hot air or should I say vapour-ware. Adage (b)
rings similar i.e. "the proof is in the pudding" so get baking and then re-
visit the whole legal thing because....

Rule #4 Ethics and co-opetition: you are in a weak position until you are able
to influence the game i.e. people will benefit more with you than without you
- so this also takes into account the rights/wrongs but before you give away a
great opportunity to someone else, especially an employer, work out how to
avoid doing that! See #5

Rule #5 Read smart books: Innovator's Solution by Claytensen and Co-opetition
by Nalebuff/Brandenburger tell you of real case studies on how the big boys do
these deals and what's at stake - sometimes you make more money NOT doing
things, now would be the time to learn your real value in this 'game' and you
get to realise why game theory is so cool in the process. If you have time
also read some Sun Tzu, my favourite.

HTH.

------
makecheck
Leaving the company to work on a competing product will sometimes violate any
agreements you may have signed for this employer, so check those first.

Usually the barrier to doing a parallel rewrite is staffing. If the company
barely has enough people now, sending people off on something else needs (in
the management's view) a very good reason. So you have to show how time will
be saved, at least medium-term.

Another potential barrier is testing. If your product has a lousy set of
regression tests and unit tests, forget it; until more tests are written, a
rewrite is far too risky. Basically, the test suite needs to prove what all
the important current behaviors are, so that you can be very confident in
replacing code.

Is there something wrong with the code base? Is it hard to maintain? You'll
probably have more success proposing changes if this is true. For example, you
can pull up the last 20 bugs/enhancements, and explain to your management
exactly where all the time was spent on them; then show how your revised
design would have made those changes more efficient. If you have access to the
time it takes customers to do things, you could have similar analysis; show
how awkward or clunky something currently is for them, and how much better it
would be if it worked differently.

------
russell
Dont start working on a competing product while still at your current
employer. You probably have an employment contract that gives them the right
to your work. (This is different from working on something totally unrelated.)

How you approach your employer depends greatly on the corporate culture and
your immediate supervisor and his/her boss. If no one else has side projects
or if every minute has to be accounted for in reports or timesheets, your
chances are not good. If the culture is a little more open and you have a good
relationship with your boss, you could try for 20% time to explore your ideas.

I am guessing you are young. It takes a while to build up corporate political
savvy. I tried just such a thing early in my career and was promptly fired. If
you have a colleague with more experience in the company's political arena,
have a beer and talk about your thoughts on changes, but not about going out
on your own.

I am a strong believer in the future of enterprise SaaS, but such a startup
needs much more that the YC level of support. Make a prototype for sure, but
be prepared to raise 6 and 7 figures to transition to profitability.

------
mankuthimma
Couple of things: 1\. Do you think you are in the right job, right now? The
way you're thinking about the architecture rehaul and the business aspects of
the project you should be the architect/CTO of the company :-) 2\. If you are
convinced the existing thing might not work, go tell your boss, sit with the
team and make the changes. Starting out on your own is very time consuming,
risky and tests your patience like anything, burns your enthusiasm out very
quickly (speaking from experience) 3\. I suggest fix the obvious gotchas in
the current implementation within the current platform with minimum deviations
and launch. In the meanwhile start a new effort, get a team, budget and
targets. Work on your implementation, learn from the current deployment. Of
course you may not be able to make millions out of this, but your risks too
are limited.

But whatever you do, try not to leave it in the middle. Go the whole hog,
enjoy the experience.

------
HeroJr
Violating your non-compete will at least damage your professional reputation
and at most get you sued.

If you are passionate about the product and industry you should recognize the
awesome opportunity your employer is giving you even if you are unhappy with
the progress.

Hone your skills on refactoring code and dealing with office politics while
collecting a paycheck.

If you do valuable work you do have capital to spend on fixing company
problems you see. Learn how to use it, you will need this skill until the day
you are paying payroll for your own employees.

------
csomar
I would start my own! You have said "but I’m sure, if done properly, it would
become a hit" if so, clients will go hundred by hundred.

But do you have sufficient funds? do you have time? Make a good study of your
project (the case you build a company) and what are the problems you might
encounter.

Making your own is the best (as of my point of view) but it's you who (and the
possibilities) that decide which way to take.

Good luck

