
Psychedelic Mushrooms Are Closer to Medicinal Use - anythingnonidin
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/03/science/magic-mushrooms-psilocybin-scheduleiv.html
======
jrowley
If you are interested in learning more about psychedelics, and their context
in 2018, I'd recommend UC Berkeley Professor Michael Pollan's latest book "How
to Change Your Mind". It is a really nice, easy to read primer on the topic,
and his experience with psychedelics. He approaches the topic with a
scientific yet accessible tone, and he asks and answers lots of good
questions. Pollan interviews many of the people mentioned in this New York
Times article.

Go put your name on the list at your local library!

[https://www.amazon.com/Change-Your-Mind-Consciousness-
Transc...](https://www.amazon.com/Change-Your-Mind-Consciousness-
Transcendence/dp/1594204225)

~~~
Reedx
He also gave a great talk about this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuhmZSFvhL0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuhmZSFvhL0)

Well worth a watch for anyone even remotely interested in the topic.

~~~
jrowley
This talk is excellent, and I've already read the book. Thanks for sharing!

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goodroot
Psychedelic mushrooms are powerful medicine. They have a psychoactive effect
which alters brain chemistry and helps neurological disorder. We can see that
in the paper. But then so do anti-depressants.

I believe the key difference between plant medicines like mushrooms, Peyote,
Ayahuasca and others and clinical mood altering medicine is within the
ecstatic experience. It is one to thing to have a pill lead you to an
empirically more "healthy" brain. It is quite another to embark on a deep,
introspective vision which provides a narrative to match the chemical benefit.

I volunteer as a guide within Ayahuasca ceremonies in Peru. Many turn to
Ayahuasca as a last resort for depression, PTSD, sexual trauma, and much more.
I have seen people in ceremony live through what they interpret as a hellish
exorcism, an active exploration of their lineage, or a direct confrontation
and resolution of their deepest emotional and spiritual trauma. These people
often undergo significant positive transformation after the experiences.

These profoundly "real" experiences appear to be essential to the healing
process.

We are creatures of story and psychedelics can help write a _most radical_
chapter of recovery.

~~~
DenisM
How bad are the bad trips? And how often they appear?

~~~
goodroot
Trips often elevate beyond dualistic thinking. Common dualistic spectrums
include good and bad, light and dark, heaven and hell, wet or dry, dead or
alive, human and non-human, space or time...

The experiences are ineffable and unlike anything perceived by prior physical
sense. The integrative aspect - taking the ecstatic vision and letting it into
daily life - is an ongoing process which often takes up to a year. And so good
or bad is too simplistic a lens in which to judge the psychedelic experience.

Moments of sheer terror, perceiving the blackest of black, are common. So too
are moments of pure bliss and the sensation of limitless loving grace. These
become trivialized by the overall experience, which is powerful enough to
fully reorient a person's understanding of what it means to be a human being.

The result depends heavily on the pre-existing mental framework that engages
with the medicine. For example, people from traditional western religious
backgrounds may manifest demons, angels, and heaven and hell within their
experiences -- if that is what _they feel they need to experience_ in order to
realize the intention that they have brought with them into the ceremony.

My personal view revolves around the entrenchment of an individual's ego.
Those who meditate and who have comfort with nondualistic thinking tend to
ride the wave better than those who have very rigid conceptions of their self
identity and its resultant patterning.

A rewarding read was the academic 'Antipodes of the Mind', a phenomenological
study from cognitive scientist Benny Shannon. It is the most rigourous
resource that addresses the wondrous weirdness of the Ayahuasca experience.

~~~
mistermann
Could you describe what you mean by "....-- if that is what _they feel they
need to experience_ in order to realize the intention that they have brought
with them into the ceremony", perhaps with an example intention?

~~~
goodroot
With mood disorders, there is a moment where an individual decides: "yes, I am
going to get better." For many reasons, getting to this pivotal choice is very
difficult.

In metaphor, each person keeps their affliction locked within a box. And each
person must be the one to create their own key. A person must be willing to
open this dark box and release whatever is in it -- the sexual abuse, the long
lived depression, or the significant trauma --- and _decide_ to become
healthy.

An intention is saying: "This is what I have locked in my box. I want to get
rid of it. I want to get better."

Real examples are:

* I no longer want to be depressed.

* I want to get over past sexual, emotional, or physical abuses.

* I want to become sober.

Through the ritualistic component of the ceremony, individuals then go deep
within themselves to find and create the narrative, the key, to open the box.
The contents of the journey will be unique to each individual. For some, it is
getting out of hell or exorcizing a demon within themselves. For others, it is
going back to their younger selves to give them love, strength, and support to
get over what almost destroyed them. Or, perhaps just catch a glimpse into the
delightful madness that is beyond self.

~~~
mistermann
Do you have any kind of a feel (from direct observations, or hearing through
the grapevine) for how much more effective going in with an explicit,
conscious intent to meditate on a particular topic or problem is, versus going
in with no specific intent but rather to just "catch a glimpse into the
delightful madness that is beyond self"?

Of course, there's no way of doing a direct comparison, but curious if you
have a feel or opinion on it, or might know of anyone who writes on that
topic.

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09bjb
Psilocybin and LSD are on their way to legalization, but the enormous host of
compounds in their phenethylamine family might not be so lucky due to a
systematic problem with U.S. drug scheduling policy. This family shows
enormous potential for treating some of our trickiest mental health / public
health problems (addiction, depression, anxiety, OCD, and the list goes on)
but the policy for newly discovered phenethylamines and tryptamines seems to
be "Schedule first, worry about it later." This slows scientific research down
dramatically, research that we need in order to even know in the first place
whether a compound might have "high potential for abuse and no known medical
potential." If there is medical potential (and in these families at least
there usually is), what took days to Schedule will take millions of dollars
and years or even decades to reschedule...per compound.

So, while I celebrate the progress being made for a couple of promising
compounds with a relatively large base of recognition and support, I'm hoping
that I see a more sane approach to drug policy within my lifetime (Portugal
seems to be the fashionable example these days).

I'll also second /u/jrowley 's recommendation of Michael Pollan's recent book
"How to Change Your Mind" as a good primer, and would recommend the TV show
"Hamilton's Pharmacopeia" as another fascinating dive into the subject.

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tchrowaway15123
Warning: anecdotes ahead.

I would like to add some counterpoint to the otherwise seemingly endless
supply of HN enthusiasm for psychedelics.

Personally, I like psychedelics. I have an annual(ish) tradition of tripping
somewhere really pretty. I think that the personal growth and emotional...
trip is fun and worthwhile.

However, my girlfriend had a bad trip and was scared of large trees for
months. And I'd rate my girlfriend as one of the most mentally stable people I
have ever met. I am unconvinced that throwing psychedelics at mentally
unstable (unhealthy) people is a good idea. We need a lot more research before
we start recommending them as medicine.

To that end, I do believe that we should allow researchers greater flexibility
to experiment with them because it would be worthwhile to understand more
about why psychedelics do what they do.

~~~
jrace
You are using an experience of a "mentally stable" person to dictate the
treatment of "mentally unstable" people.

The effects of Ritalin on a non-ADHD person are the opposite to what happens
when an ADHD person takes them.

I appreciate the spirit behind your message however.

I think we are at the point where we can start research with mentally unstable
people. It has been shown that there is little permanent issues from taking
LSD or Mushrooms responsibly.

~~~
uxp100
>The effects of Ritalin on a non-ADHD person are the opposite to what happens
when an ADHD person takes them.

I believe this is false.

~~~
blacksmith_tb
"Opposite" may be an overstatement[1], but I take it the general argument is
basically a pharmacological version of "one man's meat[2]"

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate#Uses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate#Uses)

2:
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one_man%27s_meat_is_another_m...](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one_man%27s_meat_is_another_man%27s_poison)

------
tibbon
I don't know how the government can claim with a straight face that these
substances have no known medical use, and are harmful. That's the criteria I
think for Schedule 1, but there are clearly known uses for them, and the harm
is relatively low.

I really don't like thinking, "the government just wants to ban dangerous
thoughts" but mushrooms - really? Compared to alcohol they are so incredibly
safe.

~~~
Nasrudith
Institutional inertia is one hell of a drug. Even putting aside the sinister
motivations people are often very reluctant to change even in the face of
major evidence - especially if it undermines their self worth to admit being
wrong.

~~~
loceng
Institutional inertia reminds me of the process of indoctrination, learned
through memorization and not through experience and critical thinking. It's
true too, that this process can result in good people with no sinister
motivations falling into certain traps.

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apo
Zooming out a bit, the legislation designed to stamp out the 60s and 70s
counterculture is slowly being dismantled, brick by brick.

[https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-
all/](https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/)

------
qwerty456127
They should also consider psilacetin (4-AcO-DMT) then - it's similar to the
natural mushroom psilocybin but doesn't cause nausea.

~~~
tasty_freeze
psilocybin isn't the main cause of the nausea, but the mushroom that contains
it.

~~~
Alex3917
I thought the nausea was caused by the Psilocin binding to the serotonin
receptors near your stomach, no?

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psythrow
I have a friend who used to be quite involved in the ayahuasca church. He now
knows five people from the church who have committed suicide. The fifth just
hung himself last weekend. He was 25, and was the son of one of the
priestesses in the church. Spent his childhood in the church, being fed
ayahuasca regularly.

One of them was also a friend of mine. By the time he killed himself he was
clinically insane and should have been hospitalized, sadly the services didn't
get to him in time.

I realise this is about psylocibin, but I think its still appropriate here.
Psychedelics are no joke.

~~~
semireg
What is _the_ ayahuasca church? I’m not familiar.

~~~
cypherpunks01
In the USA, it might refer to UDV (União do Vegetal)
[http://udvusa.org/](http://udvusa.org/)

------
jrowley
If you dig up the actual paper, you can see cool graphs about rhesus monkeys
self administering psychedelics in test environments. (fig 1)

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002839081...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390818302296?via%3Dihub)

------
mirceal
I recommend “Food of the Gods” [https://www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original-
Knowledge-Evolutio...](https://www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original-Knowledge-
Evolution/dp/0553371304) to anyone that’s interested in what role magic
mushrooms may have played in the evolution of humans. It also does an
interesting job in talking about what drugs are legal and what drugs are
illegal (and the somewhat arbitrary demarcation line between what’s socially
acceptable (alcohol, caffeine, sugar, tobacco) and what is not and will put
you behind bars).

Take it w/ a grain of salt but it’s definitely thought provoking.

Also keep in mind that it was written in 1993 but does a pretty good job of
anticipating the legalization of marijuana and the eventual decriminalization
of moslty all drugs on Schedule I that were put there without any kind of
research or backing data (psilocybin, DMT and friends)

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banterfoil
I have a question about mushrooms that I don't often see get addressed.
Psychedelic mushrooms nearly always are touted as medicinal tools and powerful
substances for curing PTSD or depression. However, in my own life, I don't
suffer from any of these things. I am healthy, don't suffer from depression in
any way, and am pretty satisfied with life. I am mainly interested in
psychedlic mushrooms out of curiosity. I have never had any experience similar
to that, and it all sounds fascinating to me. Is it a good idea for a healthy
person to try these "mind altering" substances strictly out of curiosity?

~~~
09bjb
Just the opinion of an internet stranger here, but I think the medicinal
benefits are touted because they're a way to get a foot in the door and start
the conversation about the utility of these substances. Society still has PTSD
(pun intended) from the out-of-control utopianism and concomitant
criminalization / smear campaign of the 60s and 70s. Therefore using the
substances to help those in desperate need is much more palatable for most
people than the less urgent "betterment of well persons." But the latter is
(or at least should be) a goal of the psychedelic community, for sure. I for
one have been helped hugely, _tremendously_, by psychedelics...and never would
have been diagnosed as mentally unwell beforehand.

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qwerty456127
A kind of a problem with "LSD-like" psychedelics (seemingly doesn't apply to
"meth-like" MDMA) as well as with the weed is the experience with them depends
hugely on your pre-existing vision, what do you actually want and where do you
drive yourself during the trip. If you are a kind and loving person by nature
(even if depressed and confused at the moment) sensations of beauty, joy and
love will probably overwhelm you and you'll end up happy and kind but if
you're a psycho like Manson you end up even more psycho. If you consciously
stick to the positive emotions and vision during the trip the trip is going to
be amazing and may have a profound positive therapeutic effect, but if you
stumble upon fear or sorrow inside you and don't know you can and should
consciously choose positive emotions it can be nightmarish. I only know of one
tryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) and one rare Hungarian mushroom (can't even remember
the species name now, perhaps I'll add it later) that seem to always yield
positive experience, with all the others one should never forget to "use the
steering wheel" during their trip. One can rely on the setting and the sitter
instead but I believe this is less reliable and people should really learn
basic compassion meditation and being mindful about their feelings before
trying psychedelics).

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greenwireless
I generally dislike mushrooms but I was pretty moved by Joe Rogan's podcast
#1035 with Paul Stamets. Despite being over 2 hours long I suggested it to and
watched it in it's entirety with several different people and each time we end
up discussing the content off and on for weeks or months afterwards. Highly
recommended.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ)

------
beenBoutIT
Is the idea of cognitive liberty going to ever make a comeback?
[http://www.cognitiveliberty.org](http://www.cognitiveliberty.org)

------
fithisux
There was an article about poisonus mushrooms that fight cancer as a chemo.
Any news?

------
srsbiznus_
"Here's Tom with the Weather..."

------
Zarath
Is anyone else concerned about capitalism getting their hands on these sorts
of things? I'm all for decriminalization, but I'm really not excited for the
patents, potentially heavy modifications to the organism for the purpose of
higher yields, potency, etc.

~~~
turtlecloud
Ya that is what I am worried about. Can you imagine the guy selling MDMA?
Would make a fortune.

Drugs were best when sold by the hippies that did it to get by day by day. It
got corrupted when sold purely as a money making enterprise. I believe that
the current trend to legalization is to combat the Mexican cartels which are
gaining immense political power using their drug money.

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byron_fast
The fact that things like mushrooms are illegal is a great example of
government programs that are ill-conceived, purely destructive, and take
decades to kill.

~~~
dang
Maybe so, but please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. It
leads to generic ideological flamewars, which are toxic and predictable.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
byron_fast
Okay.

