
Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff - petethomas
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/maryland-woman-shot-by-police-in-standoff-posted-part-of-encounter-on-social-media/2016/08/02/d4650ee6-58cc-11e6-831d-0324760ca856_story.html
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erdevs
Tragic and unfortunate, all around.

I wonder what FB's policy on this will be going forward. In many ways, these
livestreams are a public good and provide transparency and additional
accountability in these situations. If people elect to stream them, it seems
wrong to shut it down. On the other hand, perhaps there is a public good in
not showing an ongoing live police operation?

I think I'd lean toward not agreeing to shutdown such streams, unless perhaps
it's a hostage situation or terror event of some kind. (Getting into squishy
definitions there, I'm sure, which is why I qualify it provisionally.)

As to this particular incident... I wish the deceased hadn't resisted. It
seems in this case the police exercised much more caution and restraint than
has been the case in many other recent examples of shootings. And I think one
thing generally stands: if you threaten to kill a police officer and
especially if you do so while holding a weapon (or certainly pointing it at
them), you're likely to be shot.

~~~
HelloImDumb
This was a hostage situation. Was the 5 year old boy, not a hostage to his
crazed, gun-wielding mother in this standoff?

I love Monday morning quarterbacks.

~~~
throwaway201607
>I love Monday morning quarterbacks.

honest question, what does this mean?

~~~
nstj
> Monday morning quarterback: A person who analyzes the mistakes they made
> they day after they've made them. Derived from complaining over quarterbacks
> on monday morning after the sunday game. [0]

[0]:
[http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monday%20morn...](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monday%20morning%20quarterback)

------
aab0
> According to a police report from the March stop, which the department
> released after the shooting, Gaines was stopped when an officer saw that in
> place of a license plate she had a piece of cardboard on her vehicle. The
> cardboard declared, “Any Government official who compromises this pursuit to
> happiness and right to travel, will be criminally responsible and fined, as
> this is a natural right and freedom.”

So she was a Sovereign Citizen
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement))?
[http://heavy.com/news/2016/08/korryn-gaines-instagram-
videos...](http://heavy.com/news/2016/08/korryn-gaines-instagram-videos-full-
before-shooting-with-son-police-traffic-stop-shotgun-shesyourmajesty/) quotes
her spouting more of the sovereign citizen legal gobbledegook. Apparently
there's even a black version of all this stuff:
[http://www.rawstory.com/2014/08/sovereign-citizens-
express-f...](http://www.rawstory.com/2014/08/sovereign-citizens-express-
fears-of-lawlessness-by-rejecting-laws/)

~~~
rahimnathwani
"quotes her spouting more of the sovereign citizen legal gobbledegook"

It's sad that the top comment on this thread is just name-calling.

Why do you consider her views to be 'gobbledegook'?

~~~
smcl
I don't see it as an attack on their views in general (though the sovereign
citizen stuff is pretty odd, IMO) but that those sorts of people tend to
ramble in an extremely weird way. If you haven't seen this specifically then
think of a sort of madder, less coherent version of Glenn Beck or Alex Jones.

~~~
rahimnathwani
So, it's not a vague attack on their views, but a vague attack on their
communication style?

------
Overtonwindow
I think this is a very unfortunate situation, but the thought of Facebook
disabling her account at the behest of the police, that doesn't feel right. We
seen that we cannot always trust the police perspective in shootings, so
instead of disabling the account, perhaps Facebook should have instead
continue to record the feed but disable the comments.

~~~
2bitencryption
"Mr. Zuckerberg sir, an incredibly violent and hostile individual with a gun
is livestreaming a standoff with the police. It's very likely this livestream
will involve somebody brutally dying or getting horrible maimed. Also, this
stream could jeopardize an important police operation underway to neutralize
this dangerous person. Should we pull the stream?"

"No! Of course not! The internet is the land of Freedom! Hosting this content
isn't bad for us at all!"

~~~
Dylan16807
Entertaining strawman, but a sane 'no' would look more like "There's no reason
to think the stream will lead to maiming, and you're just lying to me when you
say that the subject streaming her own view could jeopardize the police
operation."

Edit: I think I misread the first sentence, I suppose you meant a content
warning rather than cause and effect, but that's not a great reason to turn
off cameras pointed at police.

------
donatj
A [dead] poster commented this, but I think it bears repeating that there is
an ACLU app specifically for recording police. [1]

I'd personally trust that far more than Facebook.

[1] [https://www.aclu.org/feature/aclu-apps-record-police-
conduct](https://www.aclu.org/feature/aclu-apps-record-police-conduct)

~~~
erdevs
This is a great reminder, thanks.

Slight concern that the developer on ACLU's behalf is something called
Quadrant 2, Inc, which seems to be owned by an individual operator as opposed
to a larger established company. Not sure what the company's track record or
policies are.

But just an aside there. This is cool to see and great to have as a reminder.

------
ben_jones
This is going to get upvoted because of the title, I really hope that people
read the actual article before posting. The worst part is that this women put
her children in extreme danger and had a history of instigating police and
threatening extreme violence through social media.

Furthermore others on social media actively encouraged her violence which
directly led to her death and serious injury to her children. It reminds me
most of the school shooting in Oregon where the attacker was actively
encouraged on internet forums to commit the act. Though like in that incident
I think this women would have acted the same regardless.

~~~
thelock85
An alternate explanation is a woman was protecting her child from a threat
--real, perceived or otherwise. Poor choice? Probably. But I think you've only
explored one side of the story and a lot more information has become available
in the last 12 hours.

~~~
rbanffy
A shotgun is not a reasonable way to protect oneself from a state. The state
probably has more police officers than you have bullets. You'll only make it
worse.

~~~
mywittyname
Unfortunately, the common narrative today to is to take up arms against what
you perceive to be an oppressive government.

~~~
stevenwiles
Actually, the narrative today is to take up arms against the haters and anyone
who tries to get between you and your dreams.

------
Kenji
I wonder if there was a way to resolve this standoff without her death. I.e.
letting her shoot all the shotgun shells she has, or just waiting until she
gets tired and slips up, gets hungry, etc. Yeah, it requires a lot of patience
but hey, you can save a human life. I don't think she would have harmed her
kid so waiting in cover seems like a relatively safe thing to do?

~~~
_audakel
if police are about to shoot, and have good cause to, then it would seem
reasonable that they be allowed to use sleep gas or tranquilizer, similar to
what doctors use during operation. Seems better than killing them.

Downside could be lawsuites against the police for "damages" that the sleep
gas caused.

~~~
trvrsalom
As nice as it would be to have a reliable nonlethal alternative to firearms,
there simply are no nonlethal weapons capable of stopping someone who is
presenting an immediate threat. Tranquilizers and anesthesia are administered
by an anesthesiologist, a doctor trained to determine a dosage based on a
person's body mass. Too much of a dose, or even administering it too quickly
can cause serious complications, or even death. Even under the controlled
environment of an operating room 1/20 patients die under full anesthesia a
year.

Sadly, the most reliable method of stopping a person presenting a threat is
with a firearm.

~~~
rfrey
Could you clarify what you mean by 1/20 patients dying? I looked at
[http://patient.info/health/anaesthesia-death-or-brain-
damage](http://patient.info/health/anaesthesia-death-or-brain-damage) and it
said the risk of death (England and Wales) was 1/100,000 full anesthetics.

~~~
pyromine
Definitely questioning that 1/20 figure, I had full anesthesia with a surgery
earlier this year and I'm pretty sure I'd be informed of that kind of risk.

------
williamscales
This seems entirely appropriate. It would be consistent with the practice of
news outlets sometimes not showing an ongoing police operation live.

~~~
erdevs
What is the rationale for news outlets not showing an ongoing police
operation? Is it so that the suspects / perpetrators can't use the external
information against the police? If so, does that rationale applicable when it
is the suspect / perpetrator broadcast their own available information?

I don't know the background for these policies, so asking the first question
non-rhetorically.

~~~
tedunangst
Tends to attract even more lookieloos.

~~~
erdevs
That's a good point of concern, for sure.

~~~
blahi
It is also the reason why broadcasters do not show field invasions from fans
in football (the _real_ football). There are some people with very loose
screws in their heads. Claiming fame with stupid shit like that totally
justifies it in their mind.

Invasions dropped very substantially after the TV stations enacted this
policy.

------
chendies
The ACLU has an app that can be used to record police encounters. Fortunately,
the ACLU won't be shutting it off at the police request.

------
microcolonel
>“She was intelligent, strong, determined, beautiful. She was a dedicated
mother, an awesome friend. She was determined to enlighten people. There’s not
enough accolades I can give her,”

A mother determined to endanger the life of her son in a firefight with
police. Though it seems it may not have been her fault that she turned out
that way. Quite sad.

~~~
cloudjacker
Right, she sued over lead in water and so far seems to be a very accurate
assessment of her deteriorating mental health by the time of encounter.

If some police departments can deliver bombs via drones, maybe warrants can be
too!

------
erikpukinskis
My first thought was they are trying to prevent a similar situation to Antonio
Perkins in June:

[http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/06/17/man-shot-killed-
whil...](http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/06/17/man-shot-killed-while-live-
streaming-orig-vstan-dlewis.cnn)

Where he was live streaming to Facebook while being shot by police. If the
police can prevent streams like these from being seen, it gives them a huge
legal advantage. It means the public won't be able to see what happened and
can't put political pressure on DAs to prosecute cops. It's much better for
them if they can keep that footage internal to Facebook, the police force, and
the DA if at all possible.

Very smart.

------
nolepointer
Considering her followers were encouraging her to not give in to police
demands, this was entirely justified.

~~~
erdevs
I think this is a good point. I wonder if livestreams could be enabled but
perhaps comments/feedback could be disabled or invisible to the poster. This
could also address concerns that external viewers might feed a
suspect/perpetrator intel on the police operation which might impinge their
efficacy in an already difficult notice.

~~~
johansch
Then the poster could just instruct the viewers to send their comments to some
other social media post/service.

------
rwallace
This incident didn't really have anything to do with Facebook. The cause was
buried in an offhand remark in the middle of the article: apparently the
woman's behavior was a result of brain damage from lead paint. The headline
should have been 'Lead paint claims yet another victim'.

------
codezero
I'm curious if the police would have entered and shot at her if they couldn't
get the live stream shut down.

------
tonmoy
Couldn't they have just cut the Internet for the place and block her cell
phone?

