
Russia plans $65bn tunnel to America - pwg
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1680121.ece
======
timf
That article is four years old. The project was greenlighted by the Kremlin
last week, according to this:
[http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3764606/Plans-
for-...](http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3764606/Plans-for-Russia-
NYC-train-link.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News)

~~~
mbreese
Funny, it used to be a $65B project (The Times, 4 years ago)... now it's a
$100B project (The Sun, this week).

~~~
maxxxxx
Wait until it's done. It will be 200 or more.

~~~
hessenwolf
Honestly, 500 is more likely.

~~~
nkassis
Probably likely once American engineers look at the plan.

------
tesseract
[2007]

The first hard part is building the tunnel.

The second hard part, as alluded to in the article, is that there is
essentially no infrastructure (highways, railroads) within 2000 miles of the
Russian terminus, and the Alaskan side is not exactly a thriving metropolis
either.

~~~
tesseract
Also I don't have the numbers in front of me so it would be cool if anyone can
back this up, but I believe transport by ship is cheaper per container-mile
than both rail and highway transport. Is there a reason that balance would
drastically change in the near future?

~~~
pchristensen
Rail is faster than sea and truck but can't do last-mile like trucks and is
more expensive than sea. Sea is the cheapest, slowest form and obviously only
works port to port. Truck is fast and flexible but most expensive.

Not sure how the math works out if you have to ship stuff across Siberia,
Alaska, and Canada.

~~~
joss82
But sea and trucks depends on oil. Rail can easily be electrified and energy
consumption is way less than the other two anyway.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency_in_transportati...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency_in_transportation)

------
brianbreslin
There is a pending battle over oil rights under the arctic shelf, russia's
stake is potentially trillions of barrels of natural gas and billions of oil
in that section of the world. As cold weather and deep sea drilling options
expand, they will have to build out more stuff in this section of Siberia.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_exploration_in_the_Ar...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_exploration_in_the_Arctic)

------
zubairov
Absolutely crazy idea. I lived there in Siberia, there not even a railways
available. The reasonable-price logistics is only possible 2 month a year.
This idea is a political hype. Such kind of idiotic projects appear shortly
before elections and pass away shortly after.

~~~
ctdonath
Seems one can make a decent living from proposing mega-projects with price
tags so vast and political inspiration so great it's not hard to to convince
someone to commission a multi-year "study" at a "paltry" cost big enough to
keep a small team living comfortably.

Another example project was construction of a billion-dollar indoor ski resort
near Atlanta. Somebody was making a good buck "studying" that one ... until
the nearby lake, proximity chosen to supply water for making snow, dried up.

------
nostromo
A lot of commenters are mentioning that the distance is greater than the
distance by sea -- but the difference isn't as much as you might think.

Look at the shortest route between LA and Beijing and you'll see that you
already go over Siberia and the coast of Alaska.
<http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=LAX-PEK>

~~~
wisty
Let me guess - some people don't understand cartographic projections? The
shortest distance between two points is _not_ a strait line on a map[1],
especially when you are a long way from the equator.

[1] For most maps. Gnomic maps (image -
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gnomonic_projection_SW.jpg>) are designed
to show the shortest distance as a straight line. I think the Dymaxion Map aka
Fuller Map (image -
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dymaxion_map_unfolded.png>) is also OK.

~~~
profquail
_The shortest distance between two points is not a strait line on a map_

You're right. The shortest distance between two points lies on a 'great
circle':

<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Great_circle>

------
nivertech
Russia's biggest problem is centralized major cities: Moscow and St
Petersburg, everything else is a "province".

US major cities are spread geographically: Boston, NYC, DC, Miami, Chicago,
Seattle, SF, LA.

Seattle was the gateway to Alaska. What's a gateway to Siberia? Vladivostok?
Does Vladivostok has something comparable to Amazon, Microsoft and Boeing?

------
pedalpete
The smart part of this equation is in placing Russia as a central connection
of goods through Europe/Asia/North America.

Much like Eremites is trying to do in being an air transport hub between Asia
and Europe.

~~~
prawn
I think you mean "Emirates." An eremite is a religious recluse.

------
SeanLuke
Given Russia's history in high-tech construction (and particularly tunnels,
see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefortovo_tunnel>) I'm surprised that an
oligarch-financed tunnel would get a positive response from the US.

~~~
ahi
Considering the success of the Big Dig in Boston, I'm not sure we can
criticize too much.

~~~
clistctrl
Boston is not in siberia.

------
ChrisNorstrom
The plan alone worries me greatly for the wildlife in Alaska, it's one of the
world's last refuges for untouched nature and the last thing we need is to
send any sort of human traffic in that direction.

If I were the richest person in the world I would probably buy up as much land
as possible and keep civilization away from it. Keep it wild for future
generations.

~~~
hugh3
Alaksa is really really big.

Rail lines aren't really all that wide.

Compute the fraction of Alaska and Siberia's land from which you'd be able to
see or hear the trains going past and it's... quite small.

~~~
Turing_Machine
"Alaska is really really big."

Indeed it is.
[http://www.commerce.state.ak.us/ded/dev/student_info/images/...](http://www.commerce.state.ak.us/ded/dev/student_info/images/akoverus.jpg)
(yes, this is in correct scale).

~~~
hugh3
Slightly over half the size of Western Australia!

------
blhack
Not to mention the fact that Canada is sitting on what is considered to be the
largest oil reserve in the world.

This is also a very smart long-term strategic move to run a pipeline from
Canada to Eurasia and Africa.

~~~
hugh3
_This is also a very smart long-term strategic move to run a pipeline from
Canada to Eurasia and Africa_

This is what I don't get. Isn't there _plenty_ of oil in Eurasia? And plenty
of demand for oil in the Americas? Do the Russians really expect that in the
future the flow of oil will go in that direction?

~~~
blhack
Well they could be playing the long-hand on this.

Oil is obviously a finite resource, and very soon, (when oil becomes much more
scarce than it is now) whoever controls the oil will control a _large_ portion
of the world's economy.

If Russia (I assume you're talking about Siberian oil here?) has a ton of oil,
it would make sense for them to sit on it and wait for the rest of the world
to deplete their own supplies before drilling.

~~~
mahyarm
If some university somehow invents batteries that have the same weight/energy
ratio and charge time as a diesel engine system (accounting for the energy
efficiency difference), wouldn't most of the oil dependence go away?

~~~
gvb
Pretty big double "if" - it may not even be physically possible.

Energy density of diesel: 45.4 megajoules / liter

Energy density of a lithium battery: 1.30 megajoules / liter

"Same weight/energy ratio" (using volume as a proxy for weight since the
lithium battery does not have a energy density by weight listed) is 40x.

"Charge time" of a diesel engine is probably also 40x (to pick a number)
faster than battery charging (e.g. several minutes vs. several hours).

Multiply the two together and you have three orders of magnitude between the
two "ifs".

Ref: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density>

~~~
blrgeek
Taking engine weight into account for automobiles, electric cars have much
lighter motors and the extra volume/weight can be used for batteries.

Consider 30l fuel capacity = 30kg of battery. Petrol engine is about 300kg,
Electric motor about 30kg. So that's 270kg that could be used for batteries
(and is in the Tesla). And since the batteries can be anywhere in the vehicle,
there's a benefit to that too!

Ref: <http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tesla-roadster.htm/printable>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster>

------
hugh3
Does anyone have a good handle on freight costs?

If I wanted to send a container of stuff from (say) China to the US, would it
be cheaper to send it in a ship, or go round the long way through a Bering
Strait tunnel (assuming such a thing actually already existed)?

~~~
analyst74
freight cost is tricky to compare, but considering Trans-Siberian Railway is
competing with the long-way sea route, and is mainly winning on speed and
safety thanks to pirates. *

I think shipping via ship is going to be way cheaper than the to-be-built
tunnel, unless, maybe if you are shipping from Siberia to Alaska?

*reference:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway#Developm...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway#Developments_in_shipping)

~~~
hugh3
Right. In that case I really can't see much use for this tunnel.

------
Dramatize
Makes you wonder how they will deal with shifting tectonic plates?

~~~
blhack
You don't built it underground, you build it floating in the water (anchored
to the sea floor). Build stretch into the tunnel, and then expand it every
$foo years as needed.

~~~
brianbreslin
ice would be a huge issue in this. thats the big impediment to bridge building
in the arctic north.

~~~
ahi
ambiguity above. underwater but not underground. So beneath the ice but above
the mud, silt, and rock so no tunneling problems.

------
pnathan
Interesting! As someone who lives in the Pacific Northwest, this sounds really
cool. Maintained, it could really open up some economic expansion in that part
of the world.

------
AshleysBrain
Any particular reason this article from 2007 has been resubmitted now? Has a
deal been struck at last? Any developments? Or...?

~~~
kloncks
Approved by Kremlin last week.

~~~
maxray
The only source of this info is an article in The Sun, which is as trustworthy
as a madman in the street.

~~~
hugh3
According to <http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44212283/ns/world_news-europe/>
the report was from The Times, not The Sun.

------
seagaia
This is AWESOME. Well, at a naive and fleeting glance it is. I'm sure it has
political, environmental, etc. etc. implications. And it got the green light.
I'm wondering how big the tunnel is. I would assume it would have to fit many
many trains at once, I mean one or two tracks would probably be a waste...

------
zavulon
I can only imagine what (and who) will be smuggled via that tunnel.

~~~
rokhayakebe
That was my first thought. Then again, it wouldn't be anything that isn't
already coming in via ships.

~~~
hugh3
It's worth noting that the Bering Strait end of Alaska is as far from Seattle
as Mexico City is from... well, Seattle.

------
beej71
In Soviet Russia, the tunnel bores you!

~~~
hugh3
While I must admit that is one of the better applications of the In Soviet
Russia meme I've seen, I'm still modding you down for it.

~~~
beej71
Oh, I'd hoped the pun would save it. Alas!

------
radishroar
Any good Palin jokes?

~~~
strait
No, but as I sit here I can feel Putin burrowing his head into Alaska's
groundspace.

------
danvoell
Does it start at Sarah Palin's house?

