
Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her - jseliger
https://letgrow.org/mom-lets-her-kids-walk-to-the-bakery-down-the-block-child-protective-services-tells-her-never-again-till-they-are-12/
======
bradenb
I wonder how we got to this. I'm all for parents being protective over
children that aren't theirs, but when did we develop the entitlement that we
should police the parents of other children?

Obligatory "When I grew up...": When I grew up (I'm 32), there were still
murderers, kidnappers, drug dealers, gangs, etc. My parents and the parents of
all my friends let us roam free from the minute we finished our chores until
dark. They often let us decide for ourselves how we wanted to get our lunch,
dinner, snacks, etc. We could choose our own transportation, our own paths. I
treasured that freedom.

What's crazy is that it's my same generation of parents that now seem to be
doing the policing. I had "heard" of this happening around me, but I was still
dumbfounded when it first happened to me. One Summer, my 6 year old was
playing in the front yard. My wife was sitting inside on the couch in front of
the window so she could keep an eye on her when suddenly the neighbor walks up
to my daughter, grabs her hand and brings her to the front door. "Did you know
your daughter was playing outside alone?" in a very accusatory tone. This
isn't a call to CPS, but it still made us feel both angry and ashamed.

As a Utah resident, one thing I'm happy to see is the new "Free Range
Parenting" law [1]. I still think it's crazy that it was needed, but I think
in today's parenting culture it really, really is.

[1] [https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Family/utahs-free-range-
parenting...](https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Family/utahs-free-range-parenting-
law-now-officially-effect/story?id=55021088)

~~~
hashr8064
completely agree. I'm roughly same age as you, same experience. When we were
kids we literally ran all over the place until dark with no adult supervision.
Man I still remember coming home, having cuts and bruises all over me, having
a pencil stuck out of my arm, bleeding, covered in poison ivy, the works. But
I loved it! Those were some of the best memories of my life, exploring the
woods, building tree forts and swinging from tree to tree with garden hoses we
strung up in the trees, finding lizards, swimming with tadpoles, catching carp
with my hands, building fish traps. Playing football in the mud on those
perfect autumn days.

We used to build spears from old broomsticks and shields from rusty trash can
lids and ride our bikes down hills at one another jousting each other off the
bikes. I remember one hot summer day we actually figured out how to make our
own fires by rubbing sticks, sparking rocks and using a lot of very dry pine
needles. We then cooked ourselves some random veggies we stole from a
neighbors garden. It tasted absolutely disgusting but of course everyone said
it was delicious.

I don't get why so many people in our generation turned into complete
snowflakes with their kids (don't forget our generation is also responsible
for "gender neutral parenting").

~~~
DanBC
My mate Bob had free-ranging parents, but he was hit by a car and killed when
he was seven so he's not here to say "survivor bias".

~~~
harshreality
Plenty of kids whose parents _were_ watching them got hit by cars, because
parents can't be watching every second. Kids with a tendency to get carried
away and run in front of cars are going to do it even with their parents in
view. Better to condition kids not to do a few obvious dangerous things, than
to maintain constant vigilance and try to intervene before they do dangerous
things.

Also, these days, a parent "watching" their kid(s) means proximity, not
awareness. The parent may be within view, but that's useless when they're
glued to their phone a good percentage of the time and only glance up now and
then.

------
Reedx
For anyone curious in an in-depth look at how we got here and the unintended
consequences, check out Jonathan Haidt's book "The Coddling of the American
Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for
Failure". This gets into what happens when these kids leave home and no longer
have parents bulldozing their path.

Here's a short talk from the same author about how overparenting backfired:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aMAJYtRPPM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aMAJYtRPPM)

 _" In the mid-'90s there was a sharp shift to overprotective parenting. In
previous generations, kids were allowed to out of the house unsupervised from
age 5-8, which has now become age 12-16. As a result, their independence,
resilience, and problem-solving skills suffer."_

------
sys_64738
The busy body who was "following closely behind them" sounds like she could
have been a kidnapper. The parent should have called the police on that
person.

~~~
raverbashing
Yeah, maybe they should consider legal action against this person as well.

(Not surprising this is Canada t.b.h. this is the country where it seems
people can't follow common sense in place of procedures and where people are
too worried about anything that "might be dangerous")

And of course kids die because of such stupidity
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ontario-mom-urges-
scho...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ontario-mom-urges-schools-to-
let-asthmatic-kids-carry-puffers-1.2455861)

~~~
otoburb
The Ontario law preventing children from carrying and administering their own
medication was changed in 2015[1].

[1] [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-law-passes-
to...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-law-passes-to-let-
asthmatic-kids-carry-inhalers-in-school-1.3055534)

~~~
raverbashing
Good to know, still it's sad that this was an completely preventable death

------
petermcneeley
You can see the social erosion when you compare to a more coherent society
like say japan. [https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2015/09/why-are-
littl...](https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2015/09/why-are-little-kids-
in-japan-so-independent/407590/)

~~~
icelancer
These posts rarely point out incredibly strict immigration policies and the
stark racial makeup of the countries that rely on group dynamics for rather
inconvenient reasons. When you have a largely homogenous population that has
been stable over decades - centuries in the case of Japan - then these types
of relationships evolve.

~~~
ilikehurdles
It has nothing to do with immigration. I was out walking to school, going to
the bakery, sledding, etc with friends in Germany throughout the 90s from like
age 6.

~~~
icelancer
Yes, Western European countries - particularly in the 1990s - have a much less
diverse racial makeup than counterparts like the United States of America.
That's exactly my point.

~~~
ilikehurdles
Germany and Western Europe generally also had a strong, nationally-funded
social support system and a high quality, affordable education, which
contributed to smaller socio-economic divisions and combated the rise of an
impoverished class whose members would be stuck in a setting surrounded by
danger and casual crime. Even those that are lucky enough to have decent
education in US are often having to sacrifice their own upward mobility in
order to support their homes and families at early ages.

The political and media landscape in the US is blatantly, openly toxic and
corrupted so severely by just a few powerful people that it feels second maybe
only to the Soviet Union and despotic dictatorships. Race (and religious
difference) has always been, since the foundation of the country, the thing
that the ruling classes of the US blame while pillaging the commonwealth.
While you may idolize ethno-nationalism, it will solve no real social
problems.

Racial minorities in the US have been systemically mistreated for centuries.
To look at a Native American reservation today and blame its residents for
their own misfortune is equivalent to ripping out 350 years worth of pages
from a US History book. It's deluded. Racial minorities in the US don't choose
a harder life of fewer opportunities and a tougher path to success -- they
have it imposed on them by hundreds of years of force.

------
toofy
Do we have any studies done yet which show whether or not this is a growing
trend or just random isolated incidents in countries with millions and
millions of families containing children?

In my region and places I travel I see children walking around everywhere and
there don’t seem to be armies of CPS workers stalking them.

I guess I’m just wondering if this is an actual trend or just more
outrage_porn attempting to get people riled up about how the millennials are
killing childhood or whatever.

~~~
dorchadas
It's odd, as I see it where I live, but not my hometown. The funny thing is, I
live in a bigger town (~70,000) than my hometown (~3,000) is. The children of
our neighborhood there (a set of four streets) all are out all the time during
the summer, often unsupervised and with younger siblings. They'll play up and
down the streets, and talk to anyone they see walking and wave and such.
They're very street aware too.

It's actually nice to see, as my hometown is not like that at all. Parents
often won't even let their kids go to the park playground while watching an
older (and sometimes younger!) sibling play ball. That's despite the fact
there's other parents over there, and it's fairly small so everyone really
does seem to know everyone. A family friend has gotten criticized for letting
their kids walk from their house to their grandparents, which wasn't even a
mile on back roads. They also let their son ride his bike to the park often (2
miles, perhaps), and got criticized for that. It's really weird to see the
contrast in the two places.

------
ams6110
I biked all over my Midwest USA neighborhood, to and from school, and beyond
from the time I was about 8, maybe even younger. This was in the 1970s. It
would have been unthinkable for anyone to be overly worried about it, much
less report it to the authorities, because that's what almost all the kids
did.

~~~
usaphp
The kid in article was 3 years old. There is a big difference between a 3 year
old kid and an 8 year old.

~~~
ibash
The kid in the article was with their 7 year old sibling and within sight of
their parent.

------
upofadown
This was a pretty big story at the time here in Winnipeg. The context is that
CPS has a bad rep here. Note that they took a whole month even to follow up on
the complaint.

------
CorvusCrypto
This is kind of a grey area it seems. Manitoba IS one province that specifies
a legal minimum age of supervision (12) but it applies only to being left at
home or in a car (edit: I was wrong about these specifics. They leave it more
generalized in the actual law) and is still left with a clause about "unless
reasonable situations exist". Meanwhile the age to allow kids to walk to
school, while unofficial and no limit exists across canafa, seems to be 9
years by majority opinion agreements.

Sounds like this social worker stepped out of bounds. If Canadian government
is by and large okay with kids walking to school themselves at 9, surely
walking a block with a 9 year old is reasonable enough. It's clear the parent
was still aware of where they were so I'd say it's an arguable case, but
IANAL.

Tbh I don't know if this is just one isolated case, but it kinda sounds like
it.

Edit: here is the law and I linked the subsection that is relevant. It more
clearly states what I paraphrased above.
[https://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/c080e.php#17(2)](https://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/c080e.php#17\(2\))

------
usaphp
It is kind of dangerous for a 3 year old to go, 3 year olds like to run
especially when they are with siblings, and they can easily end up running on
a road, and then someone who hit them on a car will have to live their whole
life with that tragedy...

~~~
21
Maybe, but according to the article until they are 12 it's not legal.

In some countries, you need to drive you kid to school until they are 14.

~~~
ksdale
According the article it does not say it’s illegal, it says you have to make
reasonable provisions for their supervision and safety if they’re unattended.
That strongly implies that it is ok under certain circumstances to let
children under 12 do things alone, else it would just say that it’s illegal to
leave children under 12 unattended, period.

I think a lot of people would argue that watching the kids until they’re
practically in the door of the bakery constitutes a reasonable provision of
safety and supervision.

------
marcuskaufmann
As a German I can't stop laughing about this. It's hilarious to me. If you are
curious then see for example the following videos of an New Zealand living in
Germany talking about differences in parenting.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLWFHlPF_g8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLWFHlPF_g8)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpRFqWlVl4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpRFqWlVl4)

------
quaunaut
It's worth noting, this is in Canada. Laws are different everywhere.

I know that in most of the US, CPS will not come out for a single complaint,
not ever. It has to be multiple, repeated complaints, and the vast majority of
the time, it needs to be more than a kid walking down the street- generally,
CPS has more than enough real child abuse cases to deal with that they don't
have time to pick up the odd stuff.

Not saying this didn't happen, but that a localized context matters to these
things.

~~~
jnbiche
This is not true. CPS comes out all the time for ridiculous things like
8-year-olds walking alone in a neighborhood (first time). Read any parenting
blog.

We really need a law like Utah's in every state.

~~~
seattle_spring
> We really need a law like Utah's in every state.

That's a phrase I thought I'd never read. Utah has some of the most outrageous
nanny state laws, worse than stuff I could even dream up.

~~~
jnbiche
> Utah has some of the most outrageous nanny state laws

That may be so, but it's irrelevant to the fact that this particular law is
both wise and greatly needed.

------
eftychis
Two comments:

i) The term reasonable, I wishfully think, covers this particular incident. I
don't think the average family in Canada worries about kidnappings, robberies
etc.

ii) How are you expecting kids to grow, and what is the lesson, if you are the
watchful un-trusting guardian for even simple tasks for a big fraction of
their non-adult life?

(P.S. I remember everyone walked back from elementary school, we ran errands
for our parents, ... Any different experience?)

------
Overtonwindow
At five and six years old I was running around in the woods, playing far from
home. In my opinion we’ve allowed the government to dictate how we are to
raise and protect our children. The only way to solve this is to continually
push to remove the government’s authority To dictate how parents should raise
their children.

------
Markoff
for all people saying what they were doing when they were young while crime
rate was higher - was also the traffic higher or lower? it's rhetorical
question, I have zero worries about kidnappings and other reasons regarding my
children but when i see how are people driving and how big it's the traffic i
am worried at what age i will let my children walk by themselves

i was actually thinking about letting my 3yo go to kindergarten by himself as
teaching him independence since it's like 100m walk, but there is one road to
cross and most importantly he is too weak to open door on both buildings, will
see if he will be stronger by age 5-6 :)

------
ashelmire
I biked around my neighborhood as young as 7, to the store a few blocks away,
without any problems or hyperconcerned adults around. And the crime rates were
higher at the time...

------
oftenwrong
If you are curious about the Utah law mentioned, you can find it at
[https://le.utah.gov/~2018/bills/static/SB0065.html](https://le.utah.gov/~2018/bills/static/SB0065.html)

The definition of "Neglect" it uses:

>285 (35) (a) "Neglect" means action or inaction causing:

>286 (i) abandonment of a child, except as provided in Title 62A, Chapter 4a,
Part 8, Safe

>287 Relinquishment of a Newborn Child;

>288 (ii) lack of proper parental care of a child by reason of the fault or
habits of the parent,

>289 guardian, or custodian;

>290 (iii) failure or refusal of a parent, guardian, or custodian to provide
proper or necessary

>291 subsistence, education, or medical care, or any other care necessary for
the child's health,

>292 safety, morals, or well-being;

>293 (iv) a child to be at risk of being neglected or abused because another
child in the same

>294 home is neglected or abused; or

>295 (v) abandonment of a child through an unregulated custody transfer.

>296 (b) The aspect of neglect relating to education, described in Subsection
(35)(a)(iii),

>297 means that, after receiving a notice of compulsory education violation
under Section

>298 53A-11-101.5, the parent or guardian fails to make a good faith effort to
ensure that the child

>299 receives an appropriate education.

>...

>309 (c) "Neglect" does not include:

>310 (i) a parent or guardian legitimately practicing religious beliefs and
who, for that

>311 reason, does not provide specified medical treatment for a child;

>312 (ii) a health care decision made for a child by the child's parent or
guardian, unless the

>313 state or other party to a proceeding shows, by clear and convincing
evidence, that the health

>314 care decision is not reasonable and informed;

>315 (iii) a parent or guardian exercising the right described in Section
78A-6-301.5; or

>316 (iv) permitting a child, whose basic needs are met and who is of
sufficient age and

>317 maturity to avoid harm or unreasonable risk of harm, to engage in
independent activities,

>318 including:

>319 (A) traveling to and from school, including by walking, running, or
bicycling;

>320 (B) traveling to and from nearby commercial or recreational facilities;

>321 (C) engaging in outdoor play;

>322 (D) remaining in a vehicle unattended, except under the conditions
described in

>323 Subsection 76-10-2202(2);

>324 (E) remaining at home unattended; or

>325 (F) engaging in a similar independent activity.

