
Face ID beaten by mask - scribu
http://www.bkav.com/d/top-news/-/view_content/content/103968/face-id-beaten-by-mask-not-an-effective-security-measure
======
mikeash
I wish they’d tone it down a little. This is really interesting, but stuff
like this makes it hard to take them seriously:

“Apple has done this not so well. I remember reading an article on Mashable,
in which Apple told that iPhone X had been planned to be rolled out in 2018,
but the company then decided to release it one year earlier. This shows that
they haven't carried out scientific and serious estimation before deciding to
replace Touch ID with Face ID.”

I’m amy case, this doesn’t worry me personally too much. I don’t expect
biometrics to be more secure than a password, just reasonably secure and more
convenient. Before Touch ID, my passcode was 0000 with a four-hour lock
timeout. I only had it set because some apps reduced functionality if no
passcode was set. Real world security for me increased a lot with biometrics.

As for fingerprints versus facial recognition, the article claims fingerprints
are better, but I’m skeptical. For one thing, my phone is covered in my own
fingerprints, so getting something to copy is a lot easier.

~~~
toyg
Biometrics are weaker than anything that relies on knowledge, for the simple
fact that a physical attack IRL cannot be resisted. One could die without
revealing a pin or password, but a biometric device would reveal his secrets
very quickly through simple coercion and even after death has occurred.

~~~
coldtea
> _One could die without revealing a pin or password, but a biometric device
> would reveal his secrets very quickly through simple coercion and even after
> death has occurred._

Well, that's hardly a criterion for most people. I'd rather give the password
than die.

------
pasta
Troy Hunt already posted about this [1].

I think this quote is fitting:

 _" More than anything though, we need to remember that Face ID introduces
another security model with its own upsides and downsides on both security and
usability. It's not "less secure than a PIN", it's differently secure and the
trick now is in individuals choosing the auth model that's right for them."_

[1] [https://www.troyhunt.com/face-id-touch-id-pins-no-id-and-
pra...](https://www.troyhunt.com/face-id-touch-id-pins-no-id-and-pragmatic-
security/)

~~~
scribu
From Troy Hunt's article:

> given the processing power to actually observe and interpret eye movements
> in the split second within which you expect this to work, this would be a
> really neat failsafe. Apple highlights this as "attention awareness"

Yes, it would be a great failsafe.

However, if the PoC demonstrated by Bkav is legit, it would seem that Face ID
doesn't look for eye movement; it just checks if the eyes are oriented toward
the device.

That said, I agree that regular people probably don't need to worry about any
of this.

~~~
jkubicek
You can also turn attention awareness off. They didn’t specifically mention
whether they turned it off or left it on.

~~~
dkonofalski
According to tweets from Wired, the attention features were disabled when they
initially observed the test. There were also questions that they asked that
the Bkav team refused to answer.

------
sambeau
As a consumer this doesn't worry me as to be able to crack my phone it looks
like they would already have to have access to my face to make the mask (and
an expert sculpture to make a nose).

If they could demonstrate it working from a 3D printed mask taken from a
surreptitious scan at distance in the outdoors then I think we'd have reason
to be worried.

For spies, spooks, government agents etc. I suspect that Face ID would always
be a no-no as it is much harder to control the ability of others to eavesdrop.

~~~
coldtea
> _As a consumer this doesn 't worry me as to be able to crack my phone it
> looks like they would already have to have access to my face to make the
> mask_

So like what they can gather from 100s of one's photos in social media and
other places?

~~~
abritinthebay
This assumes a lot.

As the OP said: demonstrate that from that data you can produce a sufficiently
accurate model that works with this method.

The article hasn’t.

It may be possible (you only have to match the resolution of the IR depth map)
but it is _not currently demonstrated_.

Plus I imagine it’s quite easy to refine FaceID in the software as well so an
attack like this may not be very long lasting.

~~~
sillysaurus3
Attacks only get better with time. Check back in a couple years and someone
may have done just that.

~~~
abritinthebay
Defenses only get better with time too. That isn’t a good argument. Based on
that logic we should have no security ever on anything because it’s always
pointless long term.

------
seanwilson
Once someone is at the stage where they're going to 3D scan you, create a
replica of your face and steal your phone to get into it...why wouldn't they
just coerce you into unlocking your phone with force? See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-
hose_cryptanalysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis)

~~~
rb808
Obligatory [https://www.xkcd.com/538/](https://www.xkcd.com/538/)

------
fao_
Most of these answers basically say nothing. e.g.

"""Q: How did Bkav develop the mask (for example why you use silicone for the
nose, why 3D printing for some areas while special processing for others,
etc.)?

A: You are right. Many people in the world have tried different kinds of masks
but all failed. It is because we understand how AI of Face ID works and how to
bypass it. As stated above, we were the first in the world to show that face
recognition was not an effective security measure for laptops."""

is a really nice way to dodge the question of why they used silicone for some
parts of the mask.

------
schappim
They're an "Interesting" company...

I'm not sure the authenticity of this story. The authors of the hack claim to
be: "the leading firm in network security, software, smartphone manufacturing
(Bkav.com/Bphone) and smarthome"[sic] and one of their products is a "gold
plated SmartHome for _super_ luxury villas".

I wonder if it will work is ordinary luxury villas...

~~~
tuananh
their bphone is just an overpriced android phone. they even goes as far as re-
branded chrome to be bchrome. probably without google's permission as well as
installing market and google default apps.

------
nezza-_-
I feel like this demo is not really good. A video where a (real) face is
learned in and then the mask is used to unlock would be good, this could just
show that the mask is learned into FaceID.

~~~
namarot
And then the question would have been if it could be beaten after the system
was given time to learn.

------
WA
_The 1st point is, everything went much more easily than you expect. You can
try it out with your own iPhone X, the phone shall recognize you even when you
cover a half of your face. It means the recognition mechanism is not as strict
as you think, Apple seems to rely too much on Face ID 's AI. We just need a
half face to create the mask. It was even simpler than we ourselves had
thought._

Interesting. I expected this to be some quite obscure technique.

~~~
cdubzzz
> We used a popular 3D printer. Nose was made by a handmade artist. We use 2D
> printing for other parts (similar to how we tricked Face Recognition 9 years
> ago). The skin was also hand-made to trick Apple's AI.

That seems reasonably obscure (:

~~~
askmike
This is the first step, it's only going to get easier from now on.

~~~
cdubzzz
Sure, but Face ID will also evolve.

------
magoon
If somebody is going to try this hard to get through my Face ID, I’m enough of
a high level target that I’m not relying on a shortcut unlock feature of a
consumer cell phone. And I’ve likely got bigger problems.

~~~
dabei
If you are that high level then your family and close associates are all
targets. Same goes their family and network...

------
positivecomment
> Because... we are the leading cyber security firm ;)

But you don't even use HTTPS. Why?

~~~
amelius
Because the information was meant to be public anyway?

~~~
kbart
Their "download" page is also HTTP which is a bit more concerning. Pretty
sloppy for a company that provides security tools imho.

------
djrogers
I’d really like to see more details about how this was done, and less of the
over-the-top rhetoric.

Claims such as “we are the leading cyber security firm” and “we understand
apple’s AI and how to beat it” do not make you look more competent, just more
boastful.

~~~
eric_h
Yes, the whole tone (and lack of specificity) of the article does not add to
its credibility.

------
dep_b
Can sombebody explain this:

 _" A: It does not matter whether Apple Face ID "learns" new images of the
face, since it will not affect the truth that Apple Face ID is not an
effective security measure. However, we knew about this "learning", thus, to
give a more persuasive result, we applied the strict rule of "absolutely no
passcode" when crafting the mask."_

Does it mean passcode was completely off and the phone would not lock itself
after a few failed attempts? Because there's a difference between trying until
it works and getting a mask within 24 hours that does not fail three times.

~~~
noitsnot
It most definitely matters. I have read Face ID tries to learn more about your
face if you unlock it with the passcode after having issues unlocking with
your face. What are the chances it learned the mask?

~~~
dep_b
That's a super interesting thought. Face ID is a bit of a black box. Though
I'm not trying to defend it to death, I can imagine it's better than all of
the face scanners before it but far from super secure.

------
runeks
Isn’t it strange that a room-temperature face can unlock the phone when Apple
has made it clear that the iPhone X uses the temperature of the face to detect
masks etc.? From the perspective of the IR camera, the mask and that guy’s
face should look completely different. This attack makes it look like it’s not
using this information at all.

~~~
mathgaron
The IR camera is near-infrared, it measures more or less light that your eyes
can't see, and no heat frequencies. The IR camera is used to recover 3D
information: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured-
light_3D_scanner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured-light_3D_scanner)

------
jgrahamc
Video of this working:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4YQRLQVixM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4YQRLQVixM)

~~~
gabrielgoh
i enjoyed the presentation, he has a flair for the dramatic.

------
KeitIG
So, fingerprints are not "secure", face recognition is not "secure"... Are
passwords/double authentication the only way to keep things private and secure
these days? Are there any serious alternative?

~~~
Yizahi
Fingerprint or face or retina is not a "password", it is a "login". And we
should have a proper password in addition to the login, not as a substitute.

~~~
lightbyte
I wonder if Apple experimented with using eye movements as a passcode? I
imagine they have the technology available to do such a thing. That would make
it so your face is your username and a specific movement you made with your
eyes the password.

~~~
newscracker
There are conditions that may make an average person unable to perform the
movement, like getting a severe cold or an eye infection that makes an eye
water. They may still want to use their phones with minimum inconvenience,
instead of resorting to entering a passcode. It may not be possible for some
people to configure it well either, and may probably result in eye movements
that others may consider weird (imagine rolling your eyes in front of your
boss because you wanted to unlock your phone).

------
ploggingdev
I was hoping they released more details about the process. One possible method
is that they trained the iphone's Face ID on the mask by repeatedly failing to
unlock it with the mask and then entering the passcode which trains the
iphone's neural net on the new face (mask in this case). There was a video a
few days ago where the iphone X was unlocked by a man's brother by doing this
: [https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/04/face-id-siblings-
fail/](https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/04/face-id-siblings-fail/) .

This was posted 2 days ago, any statement from apple on this story?

~~~
JosephRedfern
They address this in their second point:

> It does not matter whether Apple Face ID "learns" new images of the face,
> since it will not affect the truth that Apple Face ID is not an effective
> security measure. However, we knew about this "learning", thus, to give a
> more persuasive result, we applied the strict rule of "absolutely no
> passcode" when crafting the mask.

~~~
jclardy
Yes, they addressed it, but why not demonstrate it if it was actually true? As
in register on camera then point it at the mask.

My guess would be because it doesn't actually work.

------
thisisit
I re-read the whole thing but cannot find what _special processing_ is all
about. Is it molding using clay or something?

~~~
draugadrotten
The _special processing_ is done to large areas of skin, so I would say that
it is makeup powder to make the plastic have IR reflective properties of real
skin.

------
oliwarner
Why not layer on more data? Like a facial gesture (smile, wink, tongue out,
etc) _and_ a fingerprint? Both using thermal readings as "proof". Given you're
almost always using your face and hands, this isn't much of an inconvenience
but it's powers more secure. All for pennies (in comparison to a $1k device).

It's infuriating that each time a mass-produced biometric scanner comes out,
it's hogtied by the fact this cheap technology isn't quite good enough yet.

~~~
iamsaul
This type of 'layering' could be done with other devices in the eco-system,
too. The Apple Watch for (a crude) example:

> Does this person have an Apple Watch? Is the device in range? Is it
> unlocked? Do the wearer's biometrics match?

Most individuals have (for better or worse) bought into the (relatively)
closed system of Apple products – why not continue leveraging that to their
advantage?

------
S_A_P
So Ive been thinking about biometrics and phone security a bit, and it seems
to me there is a pretty easy way to tell how secure your phone needs to be on
an X/Y chart where Y= Security needed and X = Data sensitivity/Personal-ness.

Id say the ideal plot would follow an exponential curve, and seems that if you
didn't keep a lot of personal data on your phone and all your social,
financial and mail accounts can be reset quickly via the web, you don't need
much security provided you maintain custody of your device. That said, Im glad
that any claims as to the security of biometrics are not just taken at
apple's/samsung's/google's word.

I remember the iPhoneX event stated that there was a exponentially smaller
chance that someone else's face could unlock your phone, and that masks "wont
work". I could also be mis-remembering, but there is a way to tell the iPhoneX
to not allow your face if you find yourself compromised in some way. So unless
someone has access to make a 3d rendering of your face, the means to make a
mask and the opportunity to take your phone before you can signal that you
want to authenticate with a password it seems pretty secure...

------
cletus
I'm actually going to be very interested to hear how FaceID works for the
average user. False positive is one issue and one Apple lauded as being lower
than TouchID.

What about the false negative rate however? This is what will actually
aggravate users.

As a user I like touch unlock. I can do it without looking at the phone,
having the phone gave me, in the dark, wearing sunglasses and so on.

To me face recognition just seems like a huge step backwards. I'd love to be
proven wrong.

~~~
abritinthebay
Only negative results I’ve had were due to either proximity (it can’t see my
face properly- too far away or too close) or obfuscation (lying on pillow
which obscures too much of my face)

Overall it’s much smoother and non-intrusive than TouchID

I’ve never needed to unlock my phone in a situation where I’m not about to
look at it so I’m not sure what use case you’re running into there.

As for in the dark: it automatically scans when you swipe up, so no issue.
Don’t think of it as “using Face ID” think of it as “swipe up to unlock
phone”. The Face ID is just an implementation detail.

------
dolguldur
One thing that’s usually missed is that passcodes aren’t that secure if you
unlock your phone with strangers around or if there are surveillance cameras
filming you.

------
yoz-y
The one answer that is missing from this QA is how many tries they had before
it worked.

Did they configure Face Id, made the mask and then it worked immediately? Did
they tinker with the mask until it worked? From the way this is written I
suppose the latter.

Nevertheless, I thought Apple was detecting small movements in eyes to ensure
that the subject in front is actually a living human. I don't know where I got
this from, but now I am disappointed.

~~~
Anechoic
*I thought Apple was detecting small movements in eyes to ensure that the subject in front is actually a living human

Face ID does track eye movement ("require attention"), but you can turn off
that setting. I haven't found any information as to whether the firm disabled
the eye tracking for this crack.

------
baxtr
> A: We used a popular 3D printer. Nose was made by a handmade artist. We use
> 2D printing for other parts (similar to how we tricked Face Recognition 9
> years ago). The skin was also hand-made to trick Apple's AI.

> Q: What's the approximate cost of the mask?

> A: ~ 150 USD

Taken together, the second answer cannot be true. Only if the cost stated is
related to material cost only, which is is only one input factor to assess the
total cost of this approach

~~~
fermuch
What other cost are you referring to? The 3D printer? You can send your design
to a studio and they'll print it for you and send it, or you can rent time in
some places to get access to a printer, without needing to buy one.

In any case, if it needed only a paper print, you wouldn't count the cost of
the printer, since you can print it anywhere.

~~~
delinka
Human labor is expensive. Not accounting for that is a bit disingenuous.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Artists aren't particularly well paid.

~~~
acdha
… for pure art, maybe. For commercial artists, especially ones capable of
precise results on a deadline and, in this case, also not asking too many
questions?

~~~
sangnoir
not true either, read up on past stories of skilled forgers of paper currency:
their labor was surprisingly inexpensive.

~~~
acdha
Do you have any citations?

------
m_st
I would really appreciate an option for 2FA: Require both a PIN and Touch ID /
Face ID to unlock the phone. With long passphrase to disable this again.

------
Udik
Would it be possible to just capture the IR beams with a camera, and use a
projector to send to the phone's sensor a new set of IR points as they would
appear if they were projected on an actual 3D model? This would allow to use
only a digital model of a face, without the need for printing it.

~~~
zionic
FaceID resists this by using a random dot pattern. If the pattern it gets back
doesn't match what it sends you get a lockout.

------
syshum
Biometrics are usernames not passwords. Biometrics should never be used on the
sole authentication method they should only be used in conjunction with
something else.

~~~
adamlett
_Biometrics are usernames not passwords_

That such a meaningless slogan. Passwords and biometrics have different pros
and cons, but they are the same in that they increase security.

 _Biometrics should never be used on the sole authentication method_

* Biometrics is _always_ better than no security.

* Biometrics done well is certainly better than a 4-digit PIN.

* Biometrics on an iDevice is in fact always used with something else, which is device itself: Touch/FaceID on an iPhone can only be used to access that particular iPhone. Ie. if you manage to steal my fingerprint, you can only use it to access the devices that I have set up to use my fingerprint. This means that my fingerprint alone is not of any value, unless you can also gain physical access to my phone. Compare this with a password which, if stolen, allows attackers on the other side of the globe to access to my accounts.

~~~
syshum
>That such a meaningless slogan. Passwords and biometrics have different pros
and cons, but they are the same in that they increase security.

It is not a meaningless slogan, if Biometrics give the wider public a FALSE
sense of security in that companies like Apple pitch them in unrealistic and
inaccurate ways in their marketing that gives the average Joe the false idea
that bio metrics are more secure than they really are, and secure more data
that it really does.

>Biometrics is always better than no security.

That not only a pointless statement, but a False Dilemma Fallacy as well

>Biometrics done well is certainly better than a 4-digit PIN.

Done well is the key part, and again that is a False Dilemma Fallacy as you
assume the choice is between a 4 digit pin and Biometrics, it is not

> if you manage to steal my fingerprint, you can only use it to access the
> devices that I have set up to use my fingerprint. This means that my
> fingerprint alone is not of any value, unless you can also gain physical
> access to my phone. Compare this with a password which, if stolen, allows
> attackers on the other side of the globe to access to my accounts.

it is funny you mention that because often time I see people set VERY insecure
passwords because they believe that thei biometrics protects their password.
So they set a insecure password "They will never use or need" because they
relay biometrics and believe it provides all the security they need not just
the security of the device, but since they only access their data from that
device they are lulled in a false sense of security that the biometrics are
protecting not only their device but ALL OF THEIR ACCOUNTS

~~~
adamlett
_Biometrics give the wider public a FALSE sense of security_

Oh, please! There is an abundance of evidence to show that the wider public is
completely uninterested in security to the degree that a majority will disable
security features altogether if they are inconvenient to use in the slightest.
People don’t use biometric authentication because they are misled to believe
that it’s more secure than other methods of security. They use it because it’s
the most convenient method.

 _That not only a pointless statement, but a False Dilemma Fallacy as well_

In principle perhaps, but not in practice. Before biometric authentication
became widespread, it was completely normal not to protect your phone at all.
And when it was protected, it was almost always with a 4-digit PIN that you
only had to enter after some amount of time had passed since you last unlocked
the phone.

 _often time I see people set VERY insecure passwords because they believe
that thei biometrics protects their password_

That’s a nice anecdote which may be a completely accurate account of what
someone told you. Or not. I find it hard to believe with no evidence that such
a specific misunderstanding should be widespread. I do find it very believable
that people use bad passwords, because people have always used bad passwords.
As long as we’re exchanging anecdotes, I can tell you that I personally
changed from a 4-digit PIN to a longer password when I got Touch ID, because
it wasn’t as inconvenient when I only had to type it in once in a while as
opposed to every time I unlock my phone.

~~~
cmsj
It's also worth noting that iOS defaults to asking for a 6 digit PIN when you
set up a new device. You can switch it to 4/0/alphanumeric, but the default is
6.

------
luxuryballs
Cool that they took the time to explore the limits of it, but FaceID is about
convenience with security, not maximum security. Having physical access to the
phone is still required, which is a pretty big obstacle for this kind of
attack.

There is also a quick button squeeze you can do that requires passcode for the
next unlock, so you can do that before you go to bed if you're really afraid
someone is going to gain physical access to your device.

------
Yizahi
I wish both companies would allow us to have both PIN/PASS + biometric
together and not strictly separately as it is now. At least as an option.

~~~
Cthulhu_
It would make a lot of sense for the new iphone actually, since with the PIN
you're usually already looking at the screen.

------
dmitriid
I’d love to see more details. When TouchID was hacked, it caused a minor
sensation. When details of the hack emerged, it turned out to be not a
sensation at all, but a process that can hardly be replicated by real
criminals.

------
z3t4
What stops someone from taking the phone and "flash" it to your face, having
the phone unlocked before you understand what's going on. Or do you have to
hold the phone to the face while typing the password ?

~~~
hamandcheese
The same thing that stops someone from jumping you and forcing you to unlock
with Touch ID.

------
LoSboccacc
well, we only need a process to rotate faces now every month and a minimum
complexity check because faces with only one nose are clearly not secure
enough

------
b3lvedere
"the phone shall recognize you even when you cover a half of your face". I
wonder what half and why this works.

~~~
yoz-y
Probably because of clothes such as hats and scarves.

------
thoughtsimple
Nevermind. Should have read the article. I thought it was the same as the one
I saw over the weekend.

~~~
steve19
Edit: the op asked if this could be done with the user knowing (I don't know
why the question was removed).

"We might use smartphones with 3D scanning capabilities (like Sony XZ1); or
set up a room with a 3D scanner, a few seconds is enough for the scanning
(here's an example of a 3D scanning booth). An easier way is photograph-based,
artists craft a thing from its photos. Take the nose of our mask for example,
its creation is not complicated at all. "

~~~
thoughtsimple
I tried to delete it but you were too quick to answer so deletion was blocked.
The question was clearly answered in the article.

------
discordance
I hope this does not result in me getting 3D face scanned as I pass through
border control

~~~
y7
I think the "self-service" passport gates in the EU already do this.

~~~
threeseed
Actually quite a few countries already do this e.g. Australia.

Although I am not sure if it's based on your head or just scanning your iris.

------
valparaiso
<here was a misleading comment>

~~~
x3ro
He does no such thing. The passcode is never entered in front of the mask.
They also explicitly state in their Q&A that the passcode was never entered in
front of the mask.

------
davweb
It's conspicuous that the real face of the user of the iPhone isn't shown in
the video or in photos on the site.

~~~
Reason077
In the video, he shows the iPhone being unlocked with his own face at 1:06:

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i4YQRLQVixM](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i4YQRLQVixM)

~~~
davweb
So it does. It seems that the iPhone is better at recognising faces than me at
least.

~~~
yoz-y
On the bright side, this seems to confirm that one would be able to use FaceID
if mugged and beaten black and blue.

------
return0
finally a useful application for 3d printers

------
vultour
Wonder if this would work have Apple not relaxed their FaceID sensor
requirements to ship the phones more quickly.

~~~
sambeau
While I recall this rumour I thought it was widely discredited. Was there any
actual evidence of this?

