
Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games - SoapSeller
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260688528/clang
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antipax
Biggest problem with these games (I've found, anyway) is that your sword
controller cannot magically stop in mid air when your virtual sword hits
another sword or a wall or whatever. It really ruins the immersion.

~~~
yummyfajitas
It will also have to drastically downplay the importance of footwork. In a
real swordfight, where to put your feet is nearly as important as where to put
the sword.

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twelvechairs
This is why I don't like games talking about how 'realistic' they will be.
Firstly, because anything that runs on a standard computer will be far from
reality anyway, and secondly because often users don't actually want reality
(eg. most FPSs have far from realistic walking speeds - for good reason. Also
stylised graphics etc.).

That said, the concept of different styles of swordplay is great - and having
more 'realism' in that is something I think is pretty admirable.

~~~
vacri
Don't get bogged down in the pedantry of realism. When 'realism' is mentioned
in gaming, it really means 'realism that assists immersion'. You'll
occasionally see articles about balancing realism versus gameplay - if
something is real enough to turn you off the game (like boredom from slow
movement speed), then it's reducing your immersion.

~~~
eupharis
Johan Andersson, the designer of historical strategy games (Europa
Universalis), put it best: "When realism gets in the way of fun, fun wins."

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daenz
Cameo by Gabe Newell <http://i.imgur.com/6vDza.png>, who is swordsmithing a
crowbar :)

    
    
      Neal: "Hey is that about ready?"
      Gabe: "These things, they take time..."

~~~
ConstantineXVI
Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but noticed the prototypes they're showing
in the video seem to be running on the Source engine...

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kevingadd
They're using Unity. Check the jobs page.

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mbrubeck
"I'm the greatest sword fighter in the world."

"And you wrote the software."

"Yeah. That, too," Hiro says.

―Neal Stephenson, _Snow Crash_

~~~
jrockway
I was most surprised that his new company isn't called Corporation 9592.

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trevelyan
I don't mind putting a bit of cash towards projects where those involved
really don't have the resources to pull it off otherwise, but does Neal
Stephenson really not have enough cash to bootstrap this himself?

~~~
ArmstrongRSBC
Looks like a PR stunt to me. Not that that's a bad thing.

The production alone on that video

$$$

~~~
mehulkar
Interesting how Kickstarter can be used both for PR and actual fundraising.

~~~
dfc
I always thought PR was a component of fund-raising.

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psykotic
Anyone remember Die by the Sword? Admittedly it was more sword flailing than
sword fighting, but it's the only game I've played that had a semblance of
direct control. It was also the first game to use IK for everything from sword
fighting to rope swinging and ladder climbing. Even nowadays it's rare to see
IK used in games for anything except relatively minor pose fix-ups (blending
canned poses offers better control, and IK fix-ups can then be applied on top
to get perfect alignment for aiming, etc).

~~~
znt
You should try out Mount & Blade series then.

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dmoy
+1 on this, M&B with the difficulty settings cranked is the best you can get
atm.

~~~
ac
+2, and even the highest difficulty singleplayer is nothing compared to
multiplayer. Beware, though, it has an extremely steep learning curve.

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dmoy
Real swordfighting is not about the sword, it's about the footwork. Just
physically do not be where the opponent's sword is heading.

See: relatively little blade contact in extremely high level fencing.

~~~
planetguy
Fencing raises another good point: realistic swordfighting is actually pretty
boring compared to movie swordfighting. (If it weren't, then movie
swordfighting wouldn't need to be so unrealistic).

If I'm gonna play a swordfighting video game I wanna be Errol Flynn, not
Benjamin Kleibrink. [Who? 2008 Olympic foil champion. Yes, I had to look that
up, that's the point.]

~~~
Cushman
Competitive fencing is also a far cry from realistic swordfighting.

(There's a whole bit in Snow Crash about that, actually.)

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cynest
> (There's a whole bit in Snow Crash about that, actually.)

Admittedly it was katanas in Snow Crash.

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brown9-2
As far as entertaining Kickstarter videos go, this one is certainly off to an
auspicious start.

~~~
ralfd
I found the second video further down even more impressive in its more serious
tone.

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radical_cut
As someone who just finished reading Snow Crash today (great stuff btw, can't
wait for another Stephenson's book) I'd be thrilled to see this and try it in
action.

As someone who's been into martial arts for some time I'm very sceptic about
this. There's a lot more to realistic fighting than just swinging and clashing
swords: footwork, body movement, weight transfer...

Nevertheles, even if it won't turn out to be perfect it could stil be a lots
of fun. I'll be watching their progress.

~~~
DanBC
> _There's a lot more to realistic fighting than just swinging and clashing
> swords: footwork, body movement, weight transfer..._

I agree. I'm pretty sure he's not aiming at making something totally immersive
and realistic, but just a good game that has better sword play than anything
else.

Many games do one thing pretty well, and are good enough for everything else.
_Black_ had nice gun play; _Burnout_ had nice crashing. Hopefully this will
have sword play that is better than just button mashing.

> _Nevertheles, even if it won't turn out to be perfect it could stil be a
> lots of fun. I'll be watching their progress._

Yes, I'd settle for lots of fun.

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amelim
I'm surprised there was no mention of the Mount and Blade[1] series, which
took a serious look at this sort of combat through the use of contextual mouse
movements for parries and attacks. I wonder if he's unaware of the franchise,
or just didn't feel the need to mention it.

I'm also not convinced that today's odometry based controllers will give you
high enough fidelity to model swords convincingly. Any sort of wiimote or
kinect based sword/lightsaber game has always seemed very waggle centric
without any deliberate movement. Also, I'm not really thrilled about the
thought of having to buy plastic swords to swing in my room.

[1]:<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLA87SgZcw>

~~~
acgourley
Have you tried using 2 PS3 move controllers in the gladiator mode in Sports
Champions? It's not great but it's not bad either.

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nathan_long
One of the most interesting games I've ever played was Bushido Blade 2. The
best thing about it was realistic vulnerability: get stabbed once and you die
(or maybe lose use of an arm). The disappointment was made up for by lots of
quick rounds.

I always thought it was silly to have games where you'd get shot 20 times and
keep fighting exactly the same, just lose some of your energy meter, then
suddenly flop over and die when it reached zero.

~~~
nazgulnarsil
Yeah, my immediate reaction to this is that I just want a real Bushido Blade
sequel. The most underrated fighting game of all time IMO.

~~~
pavel_lishin
I think a friend showed me either that game, or one that was very similar. You
were in any given map - which was effectively a field - and you would charge
each other, and the player with the quicker reflexes lived, and the other one
died.

It was interesting, but not at all fun - to me, it seemed like the equivalent
of playing five card stud.

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x1
He's been wanting this since the mid-90's - not downplaying or being snarky,
just making a point. This reminds me of Hero in Snow Crash.

~~~
msy
Hiro.

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justinhj
I wish him luck. Various projects have come along with backing from people
outside the video game industry with the goal of being more realistic, more
revolutionary and so on. But it's a lot harder to make a playable fun game.
Realism often isn't fun. Modern Warfare 3 is the culmination of 20 years of
evolution from Wolfenstein, and still is nothing like being a real soldier.

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eli
Oh man, I can't wait to yell "big board" to pull up the cheat mode screen.

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mehulkar
I'm more of a minesweeper guy. Can they make a game that makes blowing up
mines more realistic? How much would a Kickstarter campaign for that cost?

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fromhet
Why is it named clang? So very very confusing.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clang>

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archivator
Presumably it's an allusion to the sound of swords clashing. I bet most people
haven't heard of the other Clang (C lang, really)

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gklitt
Entertaining video, but the production value was so high that it made me
wonder whether this project really needs my money...

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Cushman
I'm in from the headline alone.

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defen
I'm curious how they plan to implement actual medieval / early Renaissance
combat tactics with a controller like the one in the video - how would you do
half-swording or something like the Mordhau?

For people who aren't medieval geeks - half-sword is when you hold the sword
halfway up the blade with your left hand, in order to deliver a more accurate,
powerful thrust; perhaps after trapping your opponent's sword between your arm
and body. Mordhau ("murder-strike") is when you invert the sword and use it as
a mace. These things came about because swinging a sword into an armored
opponent isn't actually going to do much to him.

It seems like the kind of combat you could simulate might potentially be fun,
but wouldn't actually simulate a real fight from the period - not enough
grappling / bashing.

~~~
gchpaco
It looks as though they're pursuing the unarmored combat of Liechtenauer than
the armored knight combat of later period, where swords basically stopped
being useful against breastplates and the like and folks went in more for
maces and war hammers. Liechtenauer does, IIRC, have halfswording in the basic
form but mostly it is about geometry and footwork.

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magoghm
I'm amazed at how many HN readers have turned out to also be sword fighting
experts! :)

~~~
Roboprog
Don't be. What, 20 out of 20,000? Even my daughters have had fencing in Jr.
High.

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alinajaf
As a former kendoka, this is a wet dream. I can finally put all that kata to
good use!

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ww520
It's going to be difficult to get right. They seem to emphasize on the hand
work, the swing, parry, thrust. Sword fighting is as much foot work as hand
work, as I've learned in my fencing days way back. There are only a few hand
actions, the lounge, parry/return, and indirect attack, on different zones,
but the foot work is the major part of the game. Keeping and judging the
distance is a tough skill. Close in suddenly, retreat and lounge, counter
lounge, lounge and crouch, .etc. All these will be difficult to replicate in
the game.

I wish them luck.

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10dpd
Ok. So a famous author decides to make a sword fighting video game. Awesome.
But.... I feel from the video that what they are really trying to create is a
sword fighting _simulator_. Big difference, playability is incredibly
important, we're all familiar with 'arcade modes' where realism is suspended
to create an engaging, fun game. So I'm wondering how successful this 'game'
will actually be.

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jakejake
I'm probably only moderately interested in the sword fighting game, but this
is easily the most entertaining kick starter video I've seen so far.

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charlieok
Reminds me of that Incantor wand controller

<http://incantor.com/>

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/moveablecode/incantor-
ma...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/moveablecode/incantor-magic-made-
real-a-real-world-mobile-based)

Maybe you'd want a difference in heftiness of the controller, but a similar
swinging/waving api?

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eps
Don't know about a sword fighting game, but I would gladly part with $20 to
see Snow Crash rewritten in the past tense :)

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uzero
Clang getting some The Verge coverage
[http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/10/3076307/neal-stephenson-
cl...](http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/10/3076307/neal-stephenson-clang-sword-
fighting-game) \- I hope these guys hit mainstream. I would love it if Neal
could pull this off in a big way.

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mtgx
When the Wii appeared, sword games was the first thing that came to my mind,
but I don't there have been too many of them on the Wii. I was also hoping
we'd see some martial arts fighting (or training) games for the Kinect by now,
although the Kinect needs to dramatically increase its accuracy for that.

~~~
marshray
Yes, that came to everyone's mind. But what was the big title game involving a
sword for Wii? Zelda Twilight Princess.

Originally designed for the Gamecube, it was ported to Wii with few changes.
Basically, you wave the Wiimote left and right to simulate button 'A' and poke
it forward to simulate a different button combination from the conventional
Gamecube controller.

Having been a big fan of the game on Gamecube, I didn't like the Wii version
very much. Most of the time your sword is used to cut grass or break pottery
or something else mundane, so it felt like a lot of waving around just for
show. Maybe even a little bit like having a TV remote with loose batteries
that you have to shake a bit to get it to work.

Years ago I practiced a little martial arts and took 3 or 4 classes dedicated
to practice swords. What I can relate from that is that picking up a sword-
like object and waving it around purposefully for an hour is going to use
muscles that you are not used to using. Even someone in good shape is going to
feel it the next day.

This sounds like good fun exercise, but it seems like the market for a video
game you can play from the couch will always be much larger than for a game
that presents a realistic physical challenge.

Wii and Kinect games may provide interesting counterexamples; we should look
up the sales stats for physical vs. sedentary games.

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EternalFury
If you want to sword fight "realistically", go out, buy a sword and join a
sword-fighting club.

Darn, why do people try to solve everything with technology when there is a
simple solution in the physical world!?

No matter how they dice it or slice it (ah ah), it's not going to end up
"realistic" for anyone who has used a sword before.

~~~
shard
I think this game and controller is targeted at the superset of people who was
to sword fight "realistically" while playing a fun game, without all the
bruises and sore muscles and years of training that accompany using a real
sword.

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jaredsohn
>in a much more intuitive way than pulling a plastic trigger or pounding a key
on a keyboard

A bit unfair to make that comparison. At the very least, the Wii Motion Plus
in games such as Sports Resort fencing offers a better experience than that.

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davidw
Thinking about comparative advantage, and being the selfish sort, I think I'd
rather see him do something closer to home. I don't play video games, and even
a Neal Stephenson game isn't going to change that, but I love his writing.

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mattdeboard
What are the technical challenges involved with building a high quality, low-
latency bit of hardware? Even small lags in response are really annoying and
kill enjoyment of the game for me.

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DROELOEBOY
Rune! Was awesome. The way you could make your sword move with the mouse was
amazing. Accuracy is what it is about. If this game could capture that feeling
I am aboard.

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chernevik
Everybody needs a hobby but I thought Reamde was Stephenson's break from
revolutionizing historical / science fiction.

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kuahyeow
An update has just been posted, only for backers though. Anyone mind sharing?

~~~
Paul_S
It's been incorporated into the front page. The only thing missing is that
they want to use Razer Hydra as the controller.

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Estragon
Video games? What happened to building the space needle with Google? :-)

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sneak
I absolutely adore the video, but the video should CLEARLY explain what the
money is going to be used for. There is no mention (only allusion) to hardware
development in the video at all.

Also, it's not clear from the video if the game will be playable _without_ the
special hardware...

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rufo
There is no special hardware. It's going to use an off-the-shelf motion
controller to start.

There's a second video a bit further down with a bit more info.

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ritratt
he copied my realization! [http://www.riturajsatpute.com/2010/08/where-are-
real-role-pl...](http://www.riturajsatpute.com/2010/08/where-are-real-role-
playing-games.html)

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jrockway
I have to say; sword fighting is perhaps the least interesting subject I could
imagine, but since it's Neil Stephenson, he can have my money. I also enjoyed
the part where he threw the cookbook at Sir Dumbass.

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arsey
If CLANG stood for something ridiculous then I'd be in.

~~~
mehulkar
Clean licked armor. 'N gore.

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Mizza
Loved the Gaben cameo!

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cheatercheater
TLDR: In a parallel thread ( <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4086805> )
multiple posters note how Pixar's 22 tips for storytelling apply to computer
programming. Obviously AAPL took note, because Neal Stephenson is working on
Clang now. The enterprise became the hot topic of yet another front-page
thread ( <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4090845> ). They soon might find
this handy: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4085318>

;)

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sentiental
Gotta have that TFU

