
Prisoners in England to be taught code - sizzle
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47570134
======
BFLpL0QNek
Numbers from 2015, 46% of prisoners have literacy issues that they are at the
level of an 11-year-old. 52% have numeracy issues, a third self-reported
having a learning difficulty or disability. Ref
[https://www.prisonerseducation.org.uk/media-press/new-
govern...](https://www.prisonerseducation.org.uk/media-press/new-government-
data-on-english-and-maths-skills-of-prisoners)

"carefully vetted" prisoners as described in the article is likely to mean
prisoners with literacy/numeracy skills.

No issues with people being able to learn and better themselves, a bit of a
nonstory it's just another training course on offer for people incarcerated.
The only bit that concerns me is "prisoners will work on real-world projects
with external clients" I hope they are not just being used as cheap labor.

~~~
jjeaff
As someone who has been coding and developing software for almost twenty
years, started young, had an aptitude for math and reading comprehension,
scored high on standardized tests, got an advanced education and all the
while, basically lived in front of a computer learning the full stack from top
to bottom, painstakingly solving problems as they arise, debugging server
configs, hardware issues, more debugging, and on and on ... I still find
software development very difficult and mentally taxing.

I am having a really really hard time buying any of this teach prisoners or
coal miners to code mantra (my first word choice was 'nonsense'). And I am
also having a hard time finding proof that even a single ex-coal miner is
gainfully employed in a coding job today and I am seeing stories going back to
2012 about programs popping up to teach miners to code. I am sure there are a
few, but it must be vanishingly few.

It just doesn't seem like a good fit at all. It's opposite ends of the
spectrum. Why don't we teach out of work coders to play professional rugby
too?

I guess teaching coal miners to become plumbers or electricians or heavy
equipment operators (all of which they would already have many skills for if
not already qualified) wouldn't grab headlines.

~~~
melonbar
As someone who has overcome incarceration, spent years behind bars reading
every book I could get me hands on, realizing that despite all of my short-
comings I could find a way to be a software developer. . . this comment reads
as quite offensive; smacks of typical HN snobbery. I never finished my degree,
neither did my roommate for that matter (hell, he worked in a pizza shop and a
brewery for years). Yet, we both are gainfully employed (full-time remote
work, full-stack react, GatsbyJS, ReactNative etc.), we both work on a startup
that is profitable, we both have found a way to persevere despite the
naysayers. To any coal miners reading this, do what makes you happy. If that
is writing code and becoming a software engineer, the only person holding you
back is yourself. I read a comment on here this morning that rang true, "I can
do anything, I just can't do everything".

~~~
jjeaff
I did not mean to sound snobby. In fact, the opposite, I was stating that
despite all those things, I still find programming very difficult.

And I applaud you for learning it and am impressed. You likely have a much
higher aptitude than me to be able to learn a difficult skill without an
extensive background.

But surely you don't disagree that ex-cons or coal miners are an odd choice to
target with government programs to teach them to code?

You seem like an extreme exception. Or do you feel like many of those you came
in contact with in incarceration would also be well suited to do what you are
doing?

And in case I didn't make it clear in my first post, there is nothing wrong or
lesser about trade jobs like plumbing, electrical, welding, etc. They are
challenging and honorable professions that may end up outlasting software
development when the automation/a.i. monster comes knocking.

~~~
melonbar
That is fair enough but I do believe that focusing on software has been a
boon. It has been a deciding factor in my sobriety among many other things.
That said, yes, you are right in the sense that many of the people I came into
contact with would scoff at the idea of spending time reading books and
studying. I was ridiculed a lot. I guess in the end the comments struck a
chord but there are surely others out there who could benefit from these
programs. If even a handful of people can find salvation in coding then I am
all for it.

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rumcajz
Just a guess, but wouln't ops/devops work be a better fit for prisoners?
Sitting for hours in front of a monitor, trying to solve an algorithmic puzzle
doesn't seem to be the kind of hobby that gets you into prison. Conducting a
complex operation, assessing the risks, hands-on work with hardware, even
being on-call and saving the day when outage hits, that's more like it.

~~~
jacknews
prisoners in control of production systems, what could go wrong?

~~~
pnongrata
I've employed or worked with many ex-cons in my years. It was always the good
guys who screwed up.

~~~
jacknews
I'm sure a good percentage of prisoners are there due to one stupid mistake,
and many (hopefully most), leave prison reformed, or even enter prison
reformed. I'm 100% for giving ex-cons a helping hand, and for offering
training while they are prisoners - coding, of course, why not, it's a
valuable skill.

But that's not at all the same thing as having them sit monitoring/dev-oping
production systems, which on the one hand is exploiting the prisoners, and on
the other, exposes an obvious channel for un-reformed criminals to exploit.

So yeah, prisoners doing devops work (rather than just devops training) is a
dumb idea.

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DBYCZ
I wonder if the nearly unlimited free-time they have will offset their lack of
internet access when it comes to learning speed.

~~~
james_s_tayler
I'm not sure 'free-time' is what I'd call it. More like trapped-time.

~~~
barbecue_sauce
The time is free. The prisoner is not.

~~~
james_s_tayler
But you aren't free to do what you want. You are very constrained.

You could do what Nick Yarris did and read thousands of books. I suppose you
can let your mind adventure a little. Just seems so ironic calling it free
time.

Perhaps 'unallocated' is a better word?

~~~
barbecue_sauce
That's what free time already means.

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jmull3n
Is giving a criminal the skills to write Malware really a smart move?

