
Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US - MDWolinski
https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/31/21276044/police-violence-protest-george-floyd
======
terakilobyte
As a veteran this hits me particularly hard. This kind of force goes beyond
most uses of force I personally used in Afghanistan and Iraq, actual fighting
being the exception. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’d be brought up on charges if
we treated nonviolent people the way these videos portray.

~~~
koheripbal
> ...if we treated nonviolent people the way these videos portray.

A lot of the videos portray violent rioters/looters. A lot of the ones of the
police are ambiguous because they don't show what behavior warranted the
police reaction.

I've also seen a lot of videos of peaceful protests with police
walking/talking/marching with the protesters.

We do justice a disservice when we lump everyone and every precinct together.

~~~
komali2
> A lot of the videos portray violent rioters/looters.

I've yet to see an instance of this that wasn't precipitated by cops showing
up in ironman armor to a peaceful protest and firing on people with all sorts
of military-police toys.

The violent instigators are the cops, across America. Even Target came out and
said "whatever, our shit's insured, this problem with the cops needs to be
solved."

~~~
loco5niner
Here's just one example: [https://www.whec.com/rochester-new-york-news/rpd-
asking-for-...](https://www.whec.com/rochester-new-york-news/rpd-asking-for-
help-identifying-people-seen-beating-couple-on-monroe-avenue/5747247/)

Animals.

~~~
komali2
Animals? Lemme guess, thin blue line, thugs, etc?

How about credit where credit is due - systemic police racism, and when that
was protested, insane amounts of police brutality.

All people had to do was not be racist.

~~~
loco5niner
I'm talking about the video I linked. Did you watch it?

The looters in this video are acting like animals.

More links to the same incident:
[https://twitter.com/PatrolRpd/status/1267202275895803904](https://twitter.com/PatrolRpd/status/1267202275895803904)
[https://streamable.com/ibwexe?fbclid=IwAR3Kmn22FzFgxAHTxNfiu...](https://streamable.com/ibwexe?fbclid=IwAR3Kmn22FzFgxAHTxNfiu5LOtYYpW0hOnRB5xUaoUVevxe9D8QD0U3Csv-s)

~~~
komali2
I've only ever heard protesters described as "animals" by people that are also
happy to throw around the word "thug" and smugly pretend both aren't racist
dogwhistles.

~~~
loco5niner
You are attempting to put a positive spin on their behavior by calling them
protesters.

No. They are rioters and looters, and guilty of aggravated battery.

This has nothing to do with race. It has to do with behavior.

------
hedora
This abuse of power is the direct result of the militarization of our police
force.

I say we take away their guns.

If a suspect is brandishing a firearm, they can call in a separate unit
allowed to carry weapons.

Also, no more riot gear. The police can’t be trusted with it. Let the national
guard have it, but train them for emergency response, not hunting down crooks.

~~~
ponsin
If you can't trust the police with guns or riot gear then what is the point of
them. If all they are reduced to are official naggers then they will end up
having to call the actual police (the people who are allowed to have guns and
riot gear) and the actual police will end up doing what the current police do.
A better solution would be to provide better training and enforcement of
police behavior.

~~~
bradlys
You can't trust most people with a gun. That's the problem. Guns also bring
tension to most situations. How often do you visit people with a pistol
attached to your hip? Do they all go, "Oh, yeah, feel even safer now that
you're here." Probably not - they're worried you're going to do something
stupid and shoot them.

No one I know feels safer with armed police around and tensions frequently
escalate with them around. We all go, "this man has a gun and could kill us -
he will do it too because he knows he will get away clean and free."

Training isn't sufficient. If there are real consequences for police and it
shows that they face the same consequences the rest of us do for many years -
maybe then. But that day will not be for 10+ years. For now, it's much easier
to say and act on taking away their weapons that are meant to kill people.

~~~
ponsin
In fact I do feel safer when the security guard in front of my kid's school is
armed. That security guard has been trained and will suffer big consequences
if he uses the gun improperly.

I guess that if you feel unsafe around armed security guards I can't argue
with your feelings

~~~
gremlinsinc
What if he's a bad shot, tries to aim at and hit the perp doing a shooting and
ends up killing more people than the actual shooter?

~~~
ponsin
Then he is investigated and the court decides if he is liable for
manslaughter, murder or nothing. Similar to a soldier who killed people from
their country, nuclear engineers who caused a meltdown, or bus drivers who got
into a deadly accident.

------
eezurr
There's two sides to every story. And every business/organization has bad
apples. Achieving perfection becomes order of magnitudes more expensive the
closer you are to achieving it, so some level of acceptance that factors
economic cost must be reached. The police are humans too. Knowing people are
throwing Molotov Cocktails and bricks at police cars, I wouldn't sit still in
my car if people, I mean, a mob (mentality) surrounded it. Self preservation.

My theory on why the police need to use some level of brutality is because a
mob mentality is an animal. It's an amorphous mammalian manifestation that is
afraid of loud noises, pain, and losing it's ability to breath easily. So they
use counterpart tools to control it, because when this animal cant be
controlled, the whole city could be be razed in flames. (As an example,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#Destruc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#Destruction_of_Koreatown)
)

Im not excusing shitty behavior, but it's worth considering there are millions
of events going on in these protests, and all the excess force ones fit in a
bullet list on my monitor. Also, in many of the listed events, the cops told
people to move away or go back inside repeatedly before taking action. From
their perspective, keeping battle formation is necessary to success. And
lawfully, you are supposed to comply with this demand.

Just things to consider. I hope I'm not gut-reaction-down voted for taking the
middle ground.

~~~
bryanlarsen
You know where the expression "bad apples" came from, right? A few bad apples
spoil the bunch. In other words, if there are a couple of rotten apples in a
barrel, it spreads quickly to the whole barrel. In other words, it's important
to find and throw out the bad apples immediately or you'll have to throw out
the whole barrel a few days later.

~~~
kingofpandora
I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone defend police and _not_ use the "bad
apples" expression for some reason.

~~~
bryanlarsen
I think the expression "it's only a few bad apples" started out as an ironic
expression but got picked up by those who missed the irony. You're right, I do
see it applied this way to police everywhere. And it's a self-defeating
argument every time.

------
xupybd
The protests might lead to real change and save lives.

The riots will get people killed and are destroying businesses.

Events like this are as bad as the original event
[https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/22-arrested-60-l...](https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/22-arrested-60-looters-
detained-in-Oakland-15305244.php)

If this has deteriorated to an eye for an eye I'm not sure where it will end.
I hope things get better before there is more loss of life.

------
novaleaf
It's a tough situation for police too. On one hand, how to you stop those
taking advantage of the situation by looting/burning? On the other hand, how
do they show tolerance for non-aggressive civil disobedience?

Should anyone breaking curfew be subject to rough treatment? Should the police
stand idle while people burn and loot? How can peaceful protesters be
protected while looters/abusers are using them as shields for their
activities?

PS: If replying, please be civil!

~~~
mercer
You don't attack non-violent protestors or bystanders. You use proportional
violence and only as a last resort.

But more importantly, you avoid these kinds of situations by not being an
absolutely inhumane and racist police force that should be a disgrace to any
nation that calls itself civilized.

I do find it fascinating and a bit scary that you can read this article, watch
the linked videos, and then come up with a comment like this though. Is this
kind of stuff that normalized in the US?

~~~
koheripbal
If you go to /r/publicfreakout and sort by /rising, you will see LOTS of
videos of some rioters being extremely violent.

Two sides to every story.

Peaceful protesters deserve respect and to be heard. Rioters and looters
should be dealt with harshly by the law.

~~~
sbilstein
Do you not see the dozens of videos on that sub showing protestors being shot,
shoved down, tear gassed, for nothing?

------
mavsman
Is there a specific point at which police are or are not allowed to pepper
spray people? Use tasers? Use other hopefully non-lethal force like this?
These videos are really sad and I wonder when these actions are actually
acceptable.

~~~
dredmorbius
Rules of engagement:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_engagement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_engagement)

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ending-excessive-
pol...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ending-excessive-police-force-
starts-with-new-rules-of-
engagement/2014/12/25/7fa379c0-8a1e-11e4-a085-34e9b9f09a58_story.html)

[https://www.citylab.com/equity/2014/11/how-police-rules-
of-e...](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2014/11/how-police-rules-of-
engagement-differ-around-the-world/383188/)

------
bsd44
United States is a police state. I said it 20 years ago, people laughed. Now
you see if for yourself. American police have positioned themselves as the
enemy of the people because they see people as their enemy. And the only way
to stop the enemy is by applying brute force. If they're doing all this in
front of cameras, imagine what they do when nobody is looking.

Whereas in other countries, such as the UK, police are considered civilians in
a uniform and behave accordingly.

~~~
_xerces_
How did this come about, is it the consequence of an armed society, or
something else unique to Americans?

~~~
splintercell
We have a very armed police because we have a very armed populace, and we have
a very armed populace because security is your own responsibility, at least in
the rural areas (also notice the urban/rural divide, armed populace is in the
rural area, and the crazy police stories are from the urban area).

One of the main ways America is so different than Europeans because of its
political system. Here we empower rural areas (due to electoral college).
Without electoral college, the national policies are what urban policies are.
NY state looks just like Canada from a political POV, large urban concentrated
center who vote and dictate all the policies, and rural areas don't really get
much of a say in state policy.

Urban areas are ok with different point of views, they are ok with lifestyles
which don't result in 'spreading of the tribe' (i.e. abortion, LGBTQ etc),
they are less religious, pro-infrastructure spending (because a fire brigade
can serve a LOT of people).

Rural areas are more religious, self-reliant, pro-guns, anti things which
don't spread the tribe.

In European democracies, this results in primarily urban driven policies,
whereas in the US this results in a constant rural-urban divide and struggle.

~~~
anewdirection
As a rural in the USA, I see it quite differently. Urban areas are hard left,
and rural areas are a smattering of everything. I have never been attacked for
my beliefs in rural areas, and yet I have in urban ones. There is a huge
divide, but to assert yourself unquestionably on the right side paints how you
view your position in the world. Stop demonizing what you don't understand, or
you are very much the root of the problem.

~~~
dclusin
The Sikhs that got killed for wearing turbans after 9/11/2001 weren't living
in SF, LA or NY.

[https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/15/us/sikh-hate-crime-
victims/in...](https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/15/us/sikh-hate-crime-
victims/index.html)

------
GoodJokes
Let’s be very clear, police are assaulting citizens in order to protect
capital. Police protect capital not humans.

~~~
cutemonster
> in order to protect capital

Doesn't look so to me.

instead I think it's because those policemen (which are not all policemen)
enjoy being others.

------
verdverm
I forgot about that, and how pissed it made me.

Also forgot how people revenge killed good, innocent cops

[https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-
bro...](https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-brooklyn-
sources-article-1.2051941)

~~~
verdverm
Do those of you downvoting me, do you think it's because I think those
officers are innocent or something?

They are guilty.

I also think there are many people using this tragedy as an excuse to commit
crime and somehow justify their behavior via a bifurcation of their world
view.

Are you applying your beliefs about a group (the police in this case) at an
individual level or in one broad stroke? Is not the definition of bias /
prejudice (racism as a subset?) essentially applying beliefs at the group
level rather than the individual level?

~~~
komali2
> excuse to commit crime

When cops break the law, and that's what they're doing here, they destroy
faith in the justice system, in rule of law.

What's crime? Is looting a Target, crime? Sure, according to tons of various
laws in the USA, it is. Think about it another way though - there's a pile of
food, more food than anybody could possibly eat before it spoils. In fact,
lots of it does get thrown away, because it spoils. You're hungry, you walk
up, take some, eat it, and leave. Did you just do something unethical? You
take a TV, a pure form of entertainment and nothing more. Did you just do
something Bad? Hm. Maybe, if I followed a very very long chain of events, I
could say that the taking of the TV meant a CEO got to buy 1/100th less TVs
for himself, sure, that's kinda bad I guess.

Is it... worst than someone with a state-sponsored monopoly on violence doing,
well, any of the following? :

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373619](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373619)

There is no "excused crime" happening here. It's people recognizing that the
rule of law is broken, that those with the Most Might are doing as they
please, and telling themselves "well fuck it, I'm going to get a TV then."

Expectation of the citizenry to, uh, "respect property rights" (lmfao) is
absurd when we don't even expect our police to respect the rights of People to
exist without violence being committed against them.

So in short, who gives a fuck if target loses TVs - until we solve police
brutality to the point that every cop is held criminally accountable for
unethical violence, I say let it all burn, because the harm done by a looted
target is immeasurably less than even a single instance of police brutality.

------
verdverm
Are there videos where protesters are beyond acceptable behavior? Rioters? I
doubt this is a one way street by any measure.

[https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-
bro...](https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-brooklyn-
sources-article-1.2051941)

There was some pretty awful things happening on the live streams last night.

I'm surprised by how many people streamed themselves committing crimes. Are
they ignorant or just dumb? The police just started taking pictures of
everyone

~~~
onemoresoop
How about instigators? Are you aware of white supremacists? I saw a video with
a white guy breaking windows with a hammer and protesters chased him away.
These tactics have been used before.

That is not to say that there aren’t bad actors on each side, there are. I
didn’t like the looting but I think its nothing compared to how systematically
broken things are.

Im white and I do break the law here and there, minor stuff and sometimes by
accident: going above speed limit or smoking pot. If i were not white it’s
likely that I would have ended up in jail.

When I was younger I’d do stupid things like trespass some propery with my
friends, for fun. We would be caught sometimes and let go with a warning. They
understood we were kids doing stupid stuff. Well, i dont need to tell you what
would have happened if I was black, you probably know..

~~~
verdverm
I'm white, I've been in jail (not prison), I've been put to the ground by an
officer, I was doing dumb shit when I was a dumb shit.

But as soon as you introduce color, aren't you seeing color and preventing the
fundamental problem from fading away?

You can't force it away, you have to teach it away, right?

Do children see color naturally or do we teach them how? Where are they
primarily learning this? (I suspect from video screens more so than IRL,
sources widely varied)

~~~
loopz
I guess from being treated like dirt and excluded. This can happen to white
males too, but is systematic against how people where born and look.

If you move abroad, the same can happen to you.

~~~
verdverm
Moving abroad / long term travels are the best way to realize we are all the
same, have the same basic dreams and desires, that there are bad apples in all
walks of life, and is really a great way to lose prejudice, myself a case in
point, but most who travel (beyond site seeing) relate this transformation

~~~
onemoresoop
I absolutely agree with that but this view is limited to a subgroup who can
empathise. The reality is in multiple modes, competition and all for oneself’s
interests is generally a frequently met philosphy to a quite large subgroup
and thats a human nature thing. Only when we all realize that it’s better for
all of us if we’re not predominantly ruled by psychopaths and narcisits maybe
things will turn around

~~~
loopz
We will stop glorifying narcissists and psychopathic systems after they make
the world burn. Their positive traits turn destructive in excess.

Most people abroad are friendly. Makes one think why we hang on to old
conceptions and limited beliefs, and instead meet people "as new".

