
Ask YC: Where to startup? (If not the US, then Canada or UK?) - aditya
Given all the recent confusion and criticism of the US immigration fuc^Wpolicies, I'm wondering what everyone thinks is the best place outside the US to startup, and why?<p>I know there's a pretty strong startup scene now in Canada and parts of Europe but if you were starting out, which would you prefer? The following reasons are based on my VERY limited understanding and experience with both these places, so feel free to correct, etc.<p>Vancouver, BC<p>Pros: Proximity to Seattle/Silicon Valley, good startup/entrepreneurial scene<p>Cons: Bad weather, Bureaucracy, VCs are more risk-averse compare to SV, labor laws<p>London, UK<p>Pros: Burgeoning startup scene, situated mid-way between continental US and Europe (not sure why this is a pro), tech friendly VCs<p>Cons: Bad weather, labor laws, expensive (!!)<p>Any other places to consider?
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tom_rath
Canada is very business friendly, so drop that 'bureaucracy' concern. Forming
a corporation took about 24 hours, with most of that time spent waiting for
corporate name approval. Everything (except for getting a lawyer to notarize a
form -- about $25 or so and five minutes of my time) was done online and there
are TONS of resources to help start up. I think I spent around $200 in total
to get all the corporate paperwork filed -- it was trivial.

This site will provide all the information you need:
[http://corporationscanada.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/cd-
dgc.nsf/Intr...](http://corporationscanada.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/cd-
dgc.nsf/Intro)

Annual corporate paperwork takes me just a few minutes each year (all done
online) and taxes are likewise easy to put together. Any questions I've had
about the company, taxes, etc. were quickly answered either through the
Corporations Canada web site or after a brief e-mail dashed off to their
contact e-mail address.

As a sole founder of a software startup, I really couldn't be happier at my
(by accident of birth) choice of nation. I've been able to just focus on
building a business and quickly deal with the legal and tax stuff as minimally
needed.

------
pkaler
I live in Vancouver and just started a game studio.
<http://smartfulstudios.com>

Bureaucracy is not a problem. I'm not sure what you mean by that.

There is tons of government help with SRED, IRAP, the Renaissance Fund, and
Telefilm New Media Fund. <http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/taxcredit/sred/menu-e.html>
<http://irap-pari.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/>
[http://www.cse.gov.bc.ca/ProgramsAndServices/BusinessService...](http://www.cse.gov.bc.ca/ProgramsAndServices/BusinessServices/Investment_Capital/default.htm)
<http://www.telefilm.gc.ca/03/311.asp?fond_id=3>

With UBC and SFU, there is a lot of tech and business talent. Vancouver Film
School and Emily Carr add to the art talent.

Since we have universal health insurance, and a fairly decent social safety
net, it is actually cheaper to provide benefits to your employees in a lot of
cases.

Vancouver is an expensive city to live in. But definitely not as expensive as
the valley.

The infrastructure is good. I can get a 50Mbps internet connection in my
apartment.

The women are gorgeous and fit. Skiing, sailing, golfing, climbing, hiking
amenities are close by.

Yeah, it drizzles for 4 months of the year. But you get used to it.

The VCs are very approachable. Send any of them an email with the subject
header, "30 Minute, no harm, no foul meeting" and they will hear you out.

If you're trying to get from zero to fundable, check out my friends over at
Bootup Labs. <http://bootuplabs.com/>

~~~
Brendon
Thanks for the plug Parveen (I'm one of the guys behind Bootup Labs)

To elaborate on SRED and IRAP: These are programs that will either offset tax
on revenue, or provide direct grants for original research and development.
Talking with one of the local CTOs up here, he said use of these two programs
basically cut his development costs by 70 to 80% versus Silicon Valley.
Basically, there's a fair amount of free government money to be had to get you
going, or stretch your funding further.

I actually just returned here from Silicon Valley (lived in Mountain View for
four years). There's a couple reasons I did, mostly because Silicon Valley is
an echo chamber that confuses motion with progress, but also because Vancouver
has a lot to offer:

1) Diverse population ethnicity: if you're thinking about going into China,
India, or Europe, it helps to have a lot of local knowledge of those cultures.

2) Lots of local talent: For one, the largest Electronics Arts development
center in the world. For a second, a number of "Silicon Valley" companies and
thought leaders - Tim Bray (creator of XML), Flock (has a team of 20 devs on
Vancouver Island), Lloyd Budd (Automattic), many others.

3) Healthy life: I lost 15 pounds in two months when I returned to Vancouver,
without really changing much. The city is a walking city, so we have only used
a single tank of gas in th past four months. There's lots of cheap transit.

4) Close to Silicon Valley: YVR is actually the largest airport on the west
coast (not LAX). You can be in Silicon Valley in two hours. I often joked with
my valley friends that I could fly to Vancouver and drive to Whistler faster
than they could get to Lake Tahoe. ;-)

As for living expense - overall, it's about the same as Silicon Valley. Some
stuff costs more, some stuff less. The stuff that does cost more, you usually
get a lot more bang for your buck. $800K will get you a shack in Mountain
View, or a brand new modern apartment in downtown Vancouver in the heart of
the action.

~~~
huhtenberg
> 3) Healthy life: I lost 15 pounds in two months when I returned to
> Vancouver, without really changing much.

I actually gained 15 kilos in a year after moving here from another country.

> The city is a walking city,

No, of course it's not. Except for some parts of the Downtown and a couple of
other (smallish) areas. But restricting your life to just these areas is not
really an option on average.

> so we have only used a single tank of gas in th past four months.

I am filling up every few days even though I telecommute and don't drive
to/from work every day. The city of course is not a huge metropolis, there's a
bit over 1 mil people here. But only a very small fraction of population can
actually live comfortably without a car, and even between these people this
lifestyle choice still does not really appeal to that many.

> There's lots of cheap transit.

$5 a pop hardly qualifies as a cheap transit.

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truebosko
Who cares where you startup? Some of the best startups have come from non-
startup towns, like Shopify.com from Ottawa

But to support the topic, here's some cities in eastern Canada where I think
the startup culture is growing/swell:

\- Toronto, Ontario

Pros: Great community, lots of get togethers and Barcamps. Good overall scene

Cons: Crappy weather, rent and space costs are high.

\- Waterloo, Ontario

Pros: Good community (Been to several Startup meets), a lot of younger people
(It's a town with two major Universities in it plus a college) and a lot of
cool more tech-oriented startups coming out of it. Cost of living is pretty
cheap, nice small town. Lots of VC's in the area from what I've seen

Cons: Perhaps a bit TOO small of a town (Only 90,000 people)

\- Montreal, Ontario

Pros: Great european culture in the city itself. Awesome startup scene with
lots of get togethers. Great technology and apps coming out of it already.
Lots of people deeming Montreal the "Silicon Valley of Canada" (And yes, I
know it can't compare AT ALL). Pretty cheap considering how big it is

Cons: The city itself may not be for some people. Very busy.

Hope that helps. Go Canada startups! :-)

~~~
ojbyrne
Better speak French if you choose Montreal because of the language laws.
Otherwise you might be in for a shock when you discover that speaking English
is not an acceptable job requirement.

~~~
truebosko
That's true, but a lot of people in the core of Montreal also speak fluent
English and there doesn't seem to be much attitude towards English speaking
people (in that area)

And hey, French isn't too hard to learn :)

~~~
ojbyrne
I'm a Bill 101 refugee (yes I'm old!) but I really loved living in Montreal.
Other than the language issues (and you're probably correct in downplaying
them) it's a great city. And (other than the language issues) a great place
for startups.

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plaggypig
Baghdad, Iraq - although it may be "slightly" dangerous and has no dependable
infrastructure, if you manage to get up and running successfully then you'll
receive tens of millions of dollars worth of free publicity from freedom-
loving news media and be the new darling of Silicon Valley upon your safe
return. Risk/reward is probably about what VC's are used to anyway!

------
wallflower
Strongly considering Argentina.

Pros: No work visa required. Affordable lifestyle (eating out, tango clubs,
outdoor events, music). Cost of living fairly low ($10k/yr reasonable living
burn rate), Buenos Aires one of the world's largest metropolitan areas.
Burgeoning expatriate population (pro or con, depending).

Cons: Distance from family and friends (but some have said they'd love to
visit!). Distance from established networks. Virtual business dealings. You
need to learn another language to effectively be part of the community (not a
programming one, a real language, Spanish and maybe their local hybrid).

~~~
nraynaud
The last time a friend of mine went there for work (I personally only went
there for an internship with a 90days tourist visa to avoid embassy bullshit),
they asked him to apply for a visa with a bureaucracy like the one we have
here in France : "you have to go back to France to apply for the visa there in
the Paris embassy".

If you want a economically more active country, you might consider Chile too,
but I don't know anything about visas there.

~~~
wallflower
Hmm. Good to know. Overstaying tourist visas seems like a gray area.

~~~
nraynaud
I don't know, I stayed in the legal area. I was in Mendoza, so I went to Chile
2 week-ends to get a new 90 days visa each time, but I was legal : my
internship wasn't compensated.

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itay
You could also try Israel - anywhere between Haifa and Tel Aviv. Living costs
are much lower, it is easier to get work visas, and the entire tech sector is
based around a startup mentality. It also has a vibrant VC community.

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sharpshoot
London actually is starting to trump Boston in terms of Startup community
quality. Strong in online advertising, gaming and mobile sectors. Super high
quality investors here (Atomico, Index, Accel). Its expensive here, but if you
want to take on an untapped market and expand your horizons, this is a tough
yet good place to start.

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m0nty
You might find the UK is about to have a "nasty turn" WRT the lending crisis,
increasing inflation and rising fuel costs. Taxes are very high also, and the
government seem a bit clueless about the relationship between high earners and
entrepreneurship, eg:

<http://telegraph.decenturl.com/non-domicile-tax-charge>

All in all, not a bad place to live and do business but it might get worse,
not better, for a few years.

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manmanic
From an economic perspective, you want somewhere with a high standard of
living (to support the necessary infrastructure), but a low cost of living
(the $ you make over the Internet are disconnected from the local economy.)

On this basis the UK is far from ideal - it's an expensive country where the $
doesn't get you far. For this reason the talent in London goes into banking,
law and medicine, where the fat salaries are.

Tiger economies like Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan and Israel are much better
suited - they offer advanced tech infrastructure, but a much lower cost of
living. In Israel for example, the talented head for tech in their droves,
since it's the best paying sector in the economy.

~~~
yeti
I agree, HK is great - low cost and good infrastructure, access to great,
English speaking and globally aware talent

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symptic
I think people focus too much on the wheres and hows and who's too much when
coming up with an idea and building it.

What it comes down to is -will you actually bring this idea into a reality-?

Get it made. Get it out. Then move if the need arises.

~~~
nraynaud
I moved by the sea to create my venture, I'm not shooting to get rich quick, I
want a better life. For me getting a better life meant going surfing as much
as possible.

I can't imagine throwing everything for my startup, I already left behind my
friend, familly and my ex-girlfriend, I won't kill my way of living standard
too. I suppose it is legitimate for other people to seek a place on other
criteria like where I find VCs or other people like me or mountain, or night
clubs etc. and do their venture for a living.

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raju
Hey Aditya, This may sound off topic, but I followed your profile to your
website so that I could find a way to contact you offline. Unfortunately, I
could not get to the About page (and could not go to any of the articles or
the comments page). So i am resorting to dropping you a line here. I was
hoping we could talk, so drop me a email if you are interested. Email's in my
profile.

Oh! And thanks for posting this question. I too was thinking along similar
lines, and this answered some.

~~~
aditya
Couldn't see your email, but I've added mine to my profile -- feel free to
drop me a note!

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lanej0
Hey, I take exception to the bad weather comment! We're currently having a
very nice spring. Lots of flowers.

Yeah, I think the Valley has a certain magic to it, but if you're outside of
there, and have no plans to move, it doesn't really matter where you end up.

I've got a friend that moved to Panama (not to do a startup, but to work
remotely). He loves it because his cost of living is low, it's got great
infrastructure and a very nice climate.

~~~
mixmax
And don't forget a great banking sytem.

;-)

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mlinsey
Go wherever you have access to the best talent pool. If you know lots of good
people where you currently are, that's as good a place as any.

------
jaaron
Hong Kong

Pros: Modern city, great public transportation, access to China, low taxes,
cheap and easy to setup business

Cons: Very small (but growing!) tech sector, limited and competitive market
for local skilled employees, few tech VCs, cost of living can be (but doesn't
have to be) expensive.

I'd love to hear from anyone interested in the Hong Kong startup scene.
(farra-NOSPAM at apache dot org)

~~~
yeti
I'd agree with this. Good tax system, government support, close to China
etc... let me know if you need any feedback, my startup is based here

------
kirubakaran
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=129037>

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xenoterracide
well I (here in US) finally found a co-founder (which I hope turns out to be a
good decision) in the UK. I'm not sure how we're going to make it work, but I
think on advantage may be that if he gets venture capital in the UK it's worth
~twice as much if I spend it here.

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menloparkbum
I'm unfamiliar with how the rest of the world works when it comes to
immigration and entrepreneurship. Is it difficult to start a startup in Canada
or London if you aren't already Canadian or a resident of the UK?

~~~
aditya
Both Canada and the UK are much easier to _immigrate_ to (especially if you're
well educated) compared to the US, which was the original reason behind
starting this thread.

I think you can get your permanent resident status in both countries in < 2
years, whereas in the US it could take anywhere from 2-8 years depending on
where you're from (really bad if you're Indian/Chinese) and what phase the
moon is in :)

~~~
sl956
Depends where you are from. In the UK, it can be up to 5 years before getting
permanent resident status.

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aditya
BTW, Where are all the UK startuppers? I know Auctomatic was founded there,
then moved to the valley and now to Vancouver...

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pierrefar
I would strongly suggest Cambridge, UK. Lots of good VCs, great talent pool,
and close to London.

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mixmax
Does anyone have any experiences about Berlin?

I'm thinking about going there.

~~~
davidw
YC user 'wheels' is there - ask him (he's often on #startups, too).

~~~
danw
What's #startups?

~~~
davidw
IRC: irc.freenode.net, channel #startups

~~~
danw
Cheers, I'll check it out

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akuhn
Switzerland!!!

~~~
nraynaud
Yes, I spent 2 years by the Swiss border and I went there a couple of times,
it seems a fine country but expensive (and the interesting part speaks german,
and they are not in the euro area). They have very good public transportation
system, banks everywhere (but I don't know about VC stuff), mountains.

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ideas101
Canada is a great place for a startup except VCs - if u r planning to get VC
involved then u might have a tough time ... u may certainly get the meeting
appointment but not the funds. Also angel funding is minimum. I don't know
what kind of corporation u need to form (compared to Delaware C/S corp) but it
may not be as advantageous as Delaware corp. Legal and tax laws are very
straight forward. Proximity to USA will certainly help but dont know whether
VCs from US would be interested in canadian firm ... if u r planning to hire
hackers then u can find best brains here.

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ideas101
also visit <http://www.startupnorth.ca/>

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pageman
what about Madrid, Spain?
[http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/22/smbusiness/small_global_spai...](http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/22/smbusiness/small_global_spain.fsb/)

