
Ask HN: Unsupportive spouse/partner/SO? - unsupportive
I read a lot of stories here about the entrepreneur that quits a job, and begins the startup of their dreams with the full support of their partner - thats great for them.<p>I am curious to know if anyone else out there is facing resistance or lack of support from their partner in going out on a limb with their startup.  I am aware of those who might say "life's too short, leave them" or "if they don't support your dreams then they don't deserve you" etc but I would prefer to discuss the methods HN'ers have used to get their partner on board or otherwise convince them of the value of their endeavour rather than issuing ultimatums or walking out on a family etc. BTW I am in this position now so its a practical question - thanks.
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credo
Try to understand why the spouse is unsupportive.

Did they have a reasonable expectation that you would be the primary "bread-
winner" of the family. Do you have children and is the spouse concerned about
their well-being ? Did you look at worst-case financial situations for your
family and discuss that with your spouse ? Do you have a deadline for making
reasonable money through your startup and have you told your spouse that you
will go back to a regular job if the startup fails ? Does your spouse think
that a startup may reduce your family-time ? Some of these questions may be
relevant, some may not and there are other questions that I didn't list.

Ultimately, though I'd go back what I first said. Your post doesn't say why
your spouse/partner/SO is unsupportive. I think you need to find out why
he/she is unsupportive before asking the next question of how to "convince
them of the value of their endeavour"

~~~
michael_dorfman
It's also worth saying that different people have different relationships to
money.

I know that seems obvious, but it's not. Different people conceptualize money
in different ways, and most of us have very profound emotional connections to
it and what it represents for us.

So, I agree with the above poster: try to find out why your spouse is
unsupportive, and be prepared to really listen to what s/he is telling you, on
their own terms. Treat the analysis as you would a business problem: give it
the full "5 Whys".

For my part: I cashed out of my first start-up, and am now on my second.
There's no doubt in my mind that my wife would be happier if I gave it up, and
just got a salaried job somewhere stable. And there's no doubt in my wife's
mind that I'd do exactly that, if my ability to provide adequate security for
the family were at stake. That's a balance that seems to keep everyone happy,
in our case.

------
yason
The thing is, people more rarely regret what they've done rather than what
they haven't done.

The reason people bring up the "life's too short" answers is that finally,
eventually, that is the question you can't avoid and you must prepare for.

In the case that your partner won't conveniently budge you _will be faced_
with this very priority-setting question: "Do I want to do this thing of mine
(and let my S.O. possibly leave me) or do I value the companionship of my S.O.
more (and let myself pass on this idea)?" The answer to that question is not
an ultimatum per se but an ultimatum can very easily be made out of it.

Then, the reason I do bring this up is that you have to have the answer to
that question all laid out before you go ask the opinion of your S.O.
Otherwise you're really not asking: you're just knocking on the doors at
random, in hope for an easy answer.

However, as soon as you have the answer things will, once asked, unfold much
easier. One party being clear about his life helps the other party find
clarity as well.

If you're certain that you want your startup, then your S.O. will read that
and it's his/her turn to evaluate his/her priorities, and it might very well
be that he/she will find the supportiveness for your endeavour now that you're
dead serious about. On the other hand, as long as you're just toying with the
idea, he/she will just carelessly drop you an initial opinion because he/she's
not really enforced to face it yet. And people don't like to face questions
unless they're forced, at least to some extent.

This is pretty much want you _can_ do: find out what you want and then see how
it goes. It's okay to bring it up seriously but still cancel later if you get
scared enough. At least you've tried.

What you _can't_ do is change other people. They will change themselves if
they feel they want to but you can't convince or talk them into these things.
And it's pretty damn hard for them to change if they don't who you are and
what you want.

~~~
philwelch
"If you're certain that you want your startup, then your S.O. will read that
and it's his/her turn to evaluate his/her priorities, and it might very well
be that he/she will find the supportiveness for your endeavour now that you're
dead serious about."

Or they will be pressured into grudgingly going along with it (and resent you
for it), except at every small downturn where it seems you will fail (and I
hear there's no shortage of those in a startup) they will, possibly in their
very own passive-aggressive way, push you to give up--and when you don't,
you'll just add to their growing resentment of you.

~~~
yason
In the end, it's up to them.

You can't possibly verify if other people made their choices in full clarity
and if they're willing to live by it. You can just support them in achieving
that, mainly by not pressurizing them and hurrying their decision.

Other people can _always_ give up too much for you and resent _you_ for that,
whether it's about life's big crossroads or not.

------
d0m
People are really concerned about money, money, money. But, in my opinion,
working for yourself to achieve your own vision is so fun.. and this is on
what I put emphasis when people around me don't understand why I don't work
for a big company or something.

So, instead of saying, I might be the next facebook, or I will make 100x more
then you, or whatever concerning money, I usually just say, I never had so
much fun in my life and I wouldn't never go back to a "normal" job again. : )

~~~
ez77
I agree with your position, but I beg to suggest that it doesn't fit in this
discussion. Promising you'll have much fun isn't likely to quell your SO's
doubts.

~~~
d0m
It's not that much about the "fun" but more the way you want to live your
live. I mean, our goal might be to work hard and save money for later.. or it
might be to enjoy each days of our life. So it's all about what you want to
do.. if working for a big company makes you happy, that's the way to go. But
if working in a startup is what you really like, I think it's more important
than the amount of money involved.

------
gscott
In 1998 I passed all of the phone interviews to work at Lycos and they said
all I had to do was come down they liked me so much I was certain to get the
job. I was really happy, I was trying to move up and get into the excitement
but my wife didn't want to move from San Diego.

Back then I thought marriage was an equal partnership but what I gave up was
getting to a place where I could support my family. I never did much better
then what I was doing before, I know I missed out on a life changing
opportunity. Granted Lycos was no Yahoo or Google but it could have been the
thing that moved me (my family) in a promising direction but I wasn't man
enough to take charge.

~~~
qq66
Or perhaps if you had "taken charge" you would have gotten caught up in the
Silicon Valley startup mania, and done very well for yourself, but made your
wife unhappy in leaving San Diego. Would it have been worth it?

~~~
jorgeelo
If the wife's happiness is in a city instead with her husband, then he is not
her happiness regardless to where they are. If marriage is a partnership, then
both happiness worth the same, the argument of "does your dreams worth more or
less than your wife" sounds more like a guilt trip. I made that mistake and I
regret it.

~~~
gscott
My wife would not have left me over the move. I understand yours did but your
wife was likely good looking and desirable. My wife is a little more average.

I could have used some extra firepower for my resume, I ended up working for
one company this entire time until about 8 months ago. I have spent a lot of
years doing ASP Classic / SQL Server and find myself not very employable now.
I have had to take a job making a cool $3,500 a month after being unemployed
for 4 months. My wife's car was repossessed, I could no longer maintain her
credit cards, and our electricity was shut off. None of those things made her
happy either but she didn't choice but to accept them.

------
philwelch
Your partner's sincere, absolute, and wholehearted backing is necessary for
you to maintain both the relationship and do the startup. You've mentioned
dropping the partner, but I just wanted to suggest dropping the startup
instead. Most people with families seem to value their families much higher
than their professional accomplishments.

If your partner remains unsupportive, it seems like a bad idea to continue the
relationship AND do the startup. You'll likely end up destroying both. So if
you can't convince your partner, choose between them and your dream, make a
clean cut, and deal with whichever loss is easier to bear in your own way
before moving on.

~~~
aufreak3
I support this. Its people that make your life and family is a big deal. In
other words, don't "flirt with the idea of a startup", develop a healthy
enduring friendship ;)

~~~
dazzawazza
Family is a big deal but IMHO the only real commitment in life is children. If
you haven't got kids follow your dream.

The harsh reality is that your current spouse isn't 'the one' because there is
no such thing, we don't live in a hollywood dream and no one has friends like
the friends in Friends. Don't spend your life living their life, live your
own. If they are not willing to compromise why should you?

I speak as a man who has kids and a supportive partner who I have both
supported and been supported by.

At some point you'll be rotting in a hole, what mark will you leave beyond a
dark patch an archaeologist may stumble upon?

------
unsupportive
I appreciate the comments, I can see things a little differently now. In my
case she has some directionless (slacker) men in her extended family and I
think her perception is that you either work hard full-time in a job or you
are a slacker like them.

The most important issue here I realise is stability as we have a young
family, mortgage etc and the salaried job makes everything easy to manage on a
monthly basis.

I would readily give up the startup idea for my family, so in this equation,
the lowest priority is the startup - but it still burns a hole in me night and
day thinking about it and the potential.

I guess the easiest way to eliminate most of the unanswered questions is to
chip away to a level of profit somewhere close to my salary in my spare time
and only if that happens, revisit the idea of going full-time. Fortunately, it
might prevent me from chasing a bad idea before its proven.

On a side note, I was not expecting such insightful feedback on a "software"
issue like this - but its very much appreciated.

~~~
davidw
> young family

That might be worth thinking about. I think things might get easier to manage
when the kids leave for school, but I don't know, because we're not there yet.
Our 2 year old is a lot of work, and I've more or less put things on the back
burner for the time being.

------
gridspy
For about a year I really wanted to spend more time on my startup, but my wife
pointed out that we needed a steady income to support our family. Naturally,
she was right - I wrote about it here :
[http://blog.gridspy.co.nz/2010/02/part-time-
entrepreneur.htm...](http://blog.gridspy.co.nz/2010/02/part-time-
entrepreneur.html)

What I have discovered is that you need to be clear about why and how your
business is going to work. Be really honest with yourself and with her. You
don't have to leap straight from full-time employment into full-time Startup,
a gradual change is much better.

In my case, I soon moved from full-time into contracting, working from home. I
continued to do my startup part time, by this point I had the dicipline since
I had been working 60 hour weeks (40 fulltime + 20 Gridspy) for months. See my
corresponding blog entry : [http://blog.gridspy.co.nz/2010/06/breaking-away-
from-the-man...](http://blog.gridspy.co.nz/2010/06/breaking-away-from-the-
man.html)

More recently, our business is starting to become more serious. However my
wife sometimes calls it "my hobby" - her point is valid, until GridSpy is
making serious money I need to keep cash coming in to support my young family.

 _Realise that your wife probably has a lot of valid points. She won't want to
hear your argument until it is clear that you have heard hers._

Talk together with her about a plan that can bridge the gap between your
current job and a startup. Begin by spending more of your free time on the
startup in a regular and productive way. Then look into either spending less
time at work (talk to your boss) or explore contracting opportunities. You
might find that you can get a higher contracting rate than the rate you
currently earn full-time.

There is a very good chance that your startup will fail or simply go nowhere.
It takes a huge amount of persistance to get to success, and you will need her
support. Don't throw away all you have for nothing. Communicate your goals and
how you will live up to her expectations and she will probably support you.

------
barrydahlberg
My wife is supportive, but not the entrepreneurial type, risk averse and
favours stability. On top of that we have a baby boy and own a house. My
family rank way above anything else so throwing in the day job is really not
an option.

I have a small amount of time each night after bedtime where I work on my own
things. My goal is to generate what value I can and show enough to justify
taking a bigger step in future. I'm kind of bootstrapping but time is the
scarce resource, not money.

It's not easy, don't let that stop you.

~~~
c1sc0
Get your wife a time-consuming hobby ;-)

~~~
barrydahlberg
Well we had the baby...

------
jeb
A spouse can see things from an outside perspective. If your spouse thinks
it's a bad idea, then maybe it really is a bad idea.

~~~
thetrumanshow
Yes, after lots of trial and error, my wife can quickly see through my flimsy
ideas even though I still can't much of the time. I get excited about some
pretty stupid things.

In the past, I was upset that she wouldn't connect with my vision. After lots
of failures, I find that I would much prefer her to be constructively critical
of me in this way, rather than always supportive. For one, if she trusted me
blindly, then I would have immense guilt when my ideas crash and burn after
costing us time and money for no return.

------
ziadbc
Are they unsupportive of you doing a startup, or are they unsupportive of the
startup you are currently doing?

~~~
unsupportive
She can grok the startup idea - its a simple, revenue generating idea that is
just a slow-build type of thing. Its the risk of a startup she doesn't
support, especially when continuing with the safe, risk-free fulltime job
seems to make so much "sense".

------
keyle
I can relate to your question however I found the problem is more so the fact
that I get lazy around my partner.

When I was single and miserable in my little apartment, I was superbly
productive at night, would get so much done over one weekend.

Now though, very different story... I get home and we eat like a family, we
follow tv shows religiously and when bed time comes, I have a hard time giving
real reasons to stay up and I'm constently reminded that I'm just "geeking
out".

Imagine how I feel about kids.

------
grandalf
If you don't have kids I think it's fairly simple: Do you respect the reason
your SO is not supportive of your startup? If you do, the perhaps he/she has a
point.

If you don't, then how can you seriously consider being in a relationship with
someone whose view on such an important matter you don't respect?

Some possible reasons a spouse might object are: Fear of the unknown, risk
aversion, desire for predictable salary income, etc.

Or, it's possible that your SO doesn't realize how passionate you are. I
suggest you make a 10 minute pitch in which you lay down how important it is
to you and why. You should articulate your exit strategy from the startup too.

There are also some reasonable objections a financial partner (as many SOs
are) might have to you taking a lot of risk that was not part of your initial
agreement. Say you both earn $100K now and your salary will drop to $10K...
this places more stress/burden on the SO to support both of you, which he/she
may not want to do (he/she may want to buy a new car, etc. instead, which
isn't entirely unreasonable).

If the objection is reasonable and you respect it, it's probably not
permanent, and chances are you can negotiate terms that the SO will support
and get behind (such as, for example, you save up $50K before you quit your
job, etc.)

------
speleding
Just to complicate things a little bit more for you: even if your SO says she
supports you she may not always do and vice versa. My wife is supportive but,
as the female prerogative goes, if she is in a bad mood I will still get the
"why did you quit your well-paying job, now there is pressure on me to keep
working" spiel. Even though my startup is doing great. And she may be totally
different the next day. It's not a binary yes/no as we hackers would like.

Ah women. I think the species it too complex to come up with generally
applicable advice. You should still aim to get support though. Years ago, my
entrepreneurship professor wrote on the blackboard the very first day
"EENASWSI" - "Every Entrepreneur Needs A Spouse With Second Income". It's hard
enough to do a startup without having to fight a battle on two fronts.

------
wisty
You could compare a start-up to "going back to school for 2 years". The costs
(lost income, lots of time, some expense) and benefits (an exciting project,
and possibly better employment in the future) are arguably similar.

I'd actually say "I'm thinking about either starting my own company, or going
back to school for 2 years". That way, you can thresh out the issues in terms
she has a better feel for.

Also, she will have a laundry list of things she objects to. Is the big issue
(and there will be a big issue) a long term or short term problem?

------
philk
Given you're ruling out ultimatums or walking, I would suggest the following:

1) Work on the business a little bit every day. Every day is important,
because it builds momentum, keeps you focused on it and keeps you making
progress. The progress is important because it demonstrates that you're
serious and not a flake.

2) Once you've made a bit of progress (say a few months), see what she needs
from you in order to be supportive and see if you can work out a solution. For
example, if you're the sole breadwinner and she's worried about surviving,
work out how much money you need to survive for a year or so and work out
(with her) how you can achieve that. If she's not willing to discuss it or
compromise, emphasize to her how important this is to you.[1] Involve her in
coming up with solutions so she'll feel she owns them.

3) When you've got agreement, undersell on the expectations. If you tell her
it's all going to go brilliantly from day one she's going to be annoyed when
it doesn't. If you tell her it's going to be a long, hard struggle then she'll
be more accommodating.

4) Keep her in the loop, so she can see stuff is actually happening, and
celebrate what small successes you have.

5) When you get in fights and the business is brought up, don't respond. Don't
get into an argument over it as that will just cause more resentment later.

[1] If you've been working on it for an hour or two a day for three months
this will be demonstrably true.

------
paolomaffei
basically if you are: -Young = fire the SO -Married / old / with childen = you
can't do it if you don't have enough money

I do not suggest you try to make a compromise, people doesn't change.

------
BerislavLopac
It's not about their support or lack of it -- it's all about the priorities.
Basically, if you have conflicting vectors in your life, you need to choose
one that is more important to you; or put another way, you need to decide
whether to have your cake or eat it.

To cut the long story short: decide which is more important to you and stick
with that. If it's the SO who is opposed to the idea of you starting a
business, then forget the business and enjoy your life with her/him. For me
personally, there is much more people around than business opportunities, but
YMMV.

------
Mz
My $.02 (crossing my fingers and hoping I have fixed the formatting problems
-- apologies if I haven't):

I'm a former homemaker. I got my first full-time paid job post divorce, when
my oldest child was 19. I was also a top student at my high school, with lots
of academic awards, and had visions of having a very egalitarian marriage,
staying home briefly with my kids while they were little and then pursuing my
own career goals. Things didn't exactly go like that and I've read lots of
books, articles, and statistics trying to figure out a) what went wrong and b)
how to avoid similar pitfalls in the future so I don't end up bitter about my
life.

Some stats about the lives of American women, some of which may not be up to
date but should give a general idea of the situation women find themselves in,
often in spite of their best efforts and best intentions:

The majority of poor people in America are women (and their children) who were
solidly middle class until one of three things happened: They got pregnant.
They got divorced. Or their husband died.

About half of all American marriages end in divorce and 90% of the time, when
one spouse buries the other, it is a woman burying her husband. As best I can
figure, this means that about 95% of American women will face the need to
start their lives over without their spouse at some point. In most cases, even
men who were excellent providers while alive don't do a great job of planning
for her needs in the event of their death. Alimony and child support laws have
eroded overthe years so that women are typically entitled to relatively little
financial support post-divorce. To make matters worse: One third of divorced
fathers pay their child support obligation in full. One third make partial
payments. One third skip town and stop making payments.

Women who have no children and no spouse make, on average, about 98% of what
men make who have similar education and work experience. Once they either
marry or have kids, they are highly likely to fall into the majority of women
who make 2/3 of what men make (or, said another way, men make on average 1.5
times what women make). Some of the reasons for this include:

Women are much more likely than men to take time off from their career to
raise kids, care for elderly parents and so on. Even in a two career couple,
it is typically the wife who takes time off from her job to take kids to the
doctor, attend parent-teacher conferences and so forth. Most of the time, when
a couple relocates for the sake of a better job, they are following him to a
better job and she is quitting her job to do so. Most of the time, relocating
because you accepted a job elsewhere involves a step up in your career but
quitting your job to follow your spouse typically means that your next job is
a career setback. Women frequently choose "pink collar ghetto" jobs which
leave sufficient energy and mental focus at the end of the day to pull their
"second shift" of housework and childrearing. Homemakers typically spend 60
hours a week on housework. Women with full-time jobs typically still spend 40
hours a week. Men have tried to take up some of the slack at home and do, on
average, about 10% more at home than they used to do. This amounts to about 10
minutes a day or an hour and ten minutes a week, which doesn't begin to make
up the difference in the 20 hours of work no longer being done by her. Studies
typically indicate that women are chronically short of sleep and often cannot
afford to take the demanding, physically exhausting jobs which pay better.

Generally speaking, time taken off from pursuing a paid career will hurt your
earning capacity. The one exception that I am aware of is when you take time
off to pursue an education. I found that going to college part-time, even with
health problems and special needs kids, was very do-able. Lots of colleges
today cater to working adults and have online classes, condensed classes,
evening and weekend classes. Such things worked really well for me.

Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi did research into the psychological relationship
people have to time. I read one of his books when my oldest son was between 5
and 8 years old. They had people do timelines of their lives. Women,
especially homemakers, were very prone to listing nothing but endings: All
their kids would graduate high school and move away, their husband would
retire and then die and then they would die. This profile had a high
correlation with depression. In contrast, men would write things like "I'm
going to retire -- and finally get that boat I always wanted and go fishing
every weekend!" This was correlated with a much more positive outlook on life.
I swore to myself right then and there that I would go to college and make
plans for my future and not set myself up for "empty nest syndrome". I'm
content with the outcome so far.

My understanding is that one of the biggest fears that women with small kids
have is that their spouse will die. Given the statistics listed above, this
isn't exactly irrational. Adequate life insurance can help calm such fears. So
can a resource packet and plan for what she would need to do if you died. In
my marriage, a phone call to let me know when he was going to be late from
work would have made a huge difference in my sense of security. He was really
bad about not calling and there were way too many nights that I spent 2 or
more hours worrying myself sick that any minute now there would be a knock at
the door and it would be a police officer informing me he died in a car wreck
or his commanding officer informing me he died in a training accident. My
husband knew that but was very slow to change his habits. It was a big point
of contention in the marriage.

Since women do typically make a good deal less money than men, a level of debt
that a man is comfortable with can be very intimidating and problematic for a
woman. Reducing debt is generally a good idea if you hope to go out on a limb
and start a startup and will also generally make a financially dependent wife
feel more secure. When I was married, more income never helped increase my
feeling of security. It only seemed to go towards financing a higher debt load
and this made me really crazy. It was another really major point of contention
in my marriage.

Women are psychologically risk-averse due to the above financial realities.
Shoring up her actual security by having adequate life insurance and similar
measures can go a long way towards making a woman more risk-tolerant. It is a
tactic used by the American military, which provides a generous benefits
package, including free medical care, life insurance,and so on. Also, look at
info on how women typically start a business. They usually do it in much the
same way others in this thread have suggested: Work from home, part-time,
don't borrow money for it, etc. Pursuing that type of busines model is likely
to involve a great deal less actual risk and be far more psychologically
tolerable and practically supportable.

