

What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line - hawke
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3131-what-being-on-the-front-page-of-hacker-news-does-for-our-bottom-line

======
pg
It's misleading to focus only on the direct benefits. The benefits of PR are
always mostly indirect.

For example, Y Combinator makes zero direct revenue from hosting HN. But I
would feel pretty dishonest if I were to claim on that account that it has no
effect on our bottom line.

~~~
inkaudio
Exactly , his post is not objective. Front page of hackers news is essentially
word of mouth marketing, which the author(Noah) says matters. Based on the
data provided Noah does not know if the HN readers who signed up for the free
accounts are recommending the paid services to others. So the value is at the
very least $300 a month, it could be significantly more than that. Moreover
what effect does the HN traffic have on their advertising, their job board,
book sales ? He does not measure, so I doubt the accuracy of his conclusion.

~~~
cs702
I'm trying to quantify some of the second-order effects with a poll here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3680400> (FWIW, as I write this, the
number of 37signals customers claimed by the respondents to the poll already
exceeds the number of signups the SvN post states came from HN).

------
bullseye
_Upvote us, downvote us, ignore us – I don’t care_

I think this is a good attitude to have, but I have to point out that
obviously it matters a little. Otherwise, this post wouldn't exist.

~~~
robgough
Personally I like their posts, and it certainly doesn't bother me when they
reach the front page of HN. The only thing I'm tired of is all the predictable
hate that goes their way. In fact, I find it a little petty and embarrassing
for HN.

~~~
blasterford
I think the dislike is warranted personally.

The amount of exposure they get is extremely out of proportion to what they
are and do. They do have it down to a fine art. Even this blog post is
designed to get people talking about them - which it's succeeded in doing.

They created ruby on rails, which a few people use, and they make a few
webapps. They're not a startup. They give (IMHO) fairly poor startup advice,
most of which would only work if you're them.

The 37 signals fanboyism all just gets a little bit too much sometimes. Best
to ignore and move on though...

~~~
john_flintstone
>They created ruby on rails, which a few people use

A few people? Really? Now that's just petty.

~~~
blasterford
Compared to java, javascript, c, php etc?

~~~
stephenhuey
Jumping from "a few" to comparing against C and Java is quite a leap. The
simple fact is that Heroku alone had over 60,000 apps 2 years ago, and based
on other statistics I think it's safe to say that Rails is a tool used by
millions of programmers.

<http://trends.builtwith.com/framework/Ruby-on-Rails>

You're entitled to not like 37 Signals or think they give poor advice, but you
shouldn't downplay their contribution so much.

------
dclaysmith
I think the tone of the post was a bit combative (which is unnecessary),
however, the posts clearly fit the guidelines of HN and were on a whole
relatively interesting. There's nothing wrong with their posting habits.

They quoted the number of posts they made on their blog but they didn't
address whether: 1) they submitted more of their own blog posts to HN or 2)
changed the content of their blog posts to appeal to HN readers more. I think
they probably did (which is fine with me).

~~~
tptacek
It does not appear as if they've submitted _any_ of their own posts in the
last couple months.

~~~
duck
The bigger question is why would it matter if they did? It isn't like someone
else _won't_ going to post them.

~~~
tptacek
I agree, they will inevitably get posted. And people should be able to post
whatever they like to their own sites, without being accused of manipulating
other sites.

------
cs702
> _During that period, there were 24,826 first time visitors to any of our
> sites who we could identify as having first gotten to us via Hacker News (in
> all, we received more like 105,000 unique visitors from Hacker News, but
> many of those were repeat visitors). 97 of those visitors signed up, with
> more than 85% of them electing the free plan._

Left unsaid: how many of the 105,000 unique HN visitors are customers?

Also left unsaid (but harder to quantify): how many of those 105,000 HN
visitors are influencers who have referred 37 Signal products to others?
(FWIW, I know of at least half a dozen _teams_ who've signed up for BaseCamp
paid accounts as a result of my recommendation.)

[ UPDATE: In response to subsequent comments below, I've created a poll here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3680400> ]

~~~
ohashi
They talk about word of mouth and the benefit of all the extra links. And then
they discount the value in the next thought.

Word of mouth = great

links = great

hackernews popularity = no value

That's a pretty big hole in their logic.

~~~
astine
At any given moment there's probably a vanishingly small number of HN news
readers who are unfamiliar with who 37Signals are. So I suspect that for them,
gaining the front page on HN is less profitable than gaining traction in
nearly any other community. As such, writing interesting stuff that is
appealing to a broad base of communities is more profitable for them than
tailoring their posts to get on the HN front page.

My supposition; but really, what ethical difference does it make? If the HN
community likes to read the 37Signals viral marketing material then I suppose
we all gain, right?

------
ryan_f
This is the first time a post on 37signals has me a little put off. It seems
unnecessary and slightly childish. It wasn't meant to show how posts on HN can
contribute to their business but to shove it in people's faces. You would hope
that smart people like them can figure out that a few people do not speak for
an entire community.

~~~
ahoyhere
How is it "shoving" anything into "people's faces"? It says "We're not getting
revenue value out of it." Are you offended to find out that being on the front
page is nearly economically valueless?

37s is attacked all the time by a tiny, but very loud minority. I'm sure that
they wrote this not because they personally care, but because if nobody
demonstrates that this loud, tiny minority is wrong, that loud, tiny minority
has the only voice that people will hear.

It's valuable for the quiet majority to understand that A) traffic may be
nice, but B) that doesn't mean being on the front page of HN is a good plan
for revenue growth.

~~~
ryan_f
I would have no problem with the post if it was informational and demonstrated
exactly what you said above. I felt it was a little flamatory toward the HN
community as a whole when in fact it is just a small minority that was
complaining. Just an opinion.

------
hello_moto
I'm famous.

No. Just Kidding.

Noah, take me off from the "some people aren't happy about this" list please.
I think you're smart enough to read my post and understand what I pointed out
back then.

It wasn't about whether I dislike the post or not. I was merely pointing out
the marketing aspect 37signals did via the blog post (i.e.: the message for
the audience), not the whole 37signals posts are everywhere.

------
binaryorganic
mmm... I think the long-term benefits of being so popular on HN are harder to
pin down than simply putting a dollar amount on visits based on referrer. When
a bunch of developers are constantly reading your blog they don't have to
signup to effect your bottom line. I can't imagine how many people I've
recommended the service to over the years, and the number of them who I know
to have signed up for paid plans is many times greater than one. It's
important not to underestimate the influence of silent, non-converting
traffic.

------
VBprogrammer
I've enjoyed reading and even learned a fair bit from the blog posts on
37signals. Much more than you're average X is considered harmful post or the
top 10 Y tips.

If the best of their posts weren't on HN I'd add their blog to my RSS. To me,
that certainly indicates that their posts belong here.

------
jpeterson
Another day, another content-free post from 37signals on the HN front page.
When will we stop caring?

------
DanielBMarkham
So it's a post on the front page of HN about how much it doesn't matter about
being on the front page of HN? I love meta and recursion, but that's a little
too meta even for me.

I don't have anything against the guys at 37Signals. Seems like they are doing
some cool stuff. They have set themselves up as being awesome as part of their
marketing strategy. While sales from HN hits probably don't amount to
anything, I can't help but think that being on here is a big part of their
portraying themselves as thought leaders.

I've been on the front page of HN a lot -- and I know a lot of other HNers
here have also. I enjoy the feedback from the community, which to me is more
valuable than anything else. So while being here is not some kind of master
plan for business world domination, it's not like it's worthless either.

~~~
recoiledsnake
I agree. But what if they made 300K/month off HN, would they be asking HN to
upvote posts regardless of merit? The post seems to be a little sour grapey to
me but I don't think it's a big deal anyway. Just one more story to ignore on
HN's front page.

But I personally find their posts(and many others on HN) lacking in
objectiveness and follow the below trend:

1) Find something (eg. sharpening pencils), that most companies/people do.

2) Write an article about how a policy of not doing that immensely helped
their company. (save time not sharpening pencils and make a million bucks).
"Sharpening Pencils Considered Harmful"

3) Make it sound absolute and generalize it(no company should do this and if
they do, they're bureaucratic fools). This may not be explicitly stated, but
it's implied.

4) Rake in page views

Then it hits front page of HN(surprising how their posts get immediately on
FP, but I don't think it's foul play, maybe it's their Twitter followers?).

Then the inevitable follow up HN comments/blog posts come along "Why 37
Signals is wrong about Pencil Sharpening and how it can work/worked for me/us
and we made millions Sharpening Pencils". Full of noise, flamebait comments,
back and forth opinionated arguments and even personal attacks that are
sometimes totally worthless since the whole argument is very subjective to
individual circumstances.

Navigating through this morass for finding the 1% of posts that are actually
insightful is an exercise in frustration and usually a waste of time. The big
risk is that you'll find a comment which you vehemently disagree with and fall
prey to spending ten precious minutes composing a reply ("Look Mom! Somebody
is wrong on the internet!") which will lead to a comment tree of arguments.

For reference, look at this very discussion, it will be very similar to what I
just stated.

This is repeated ad nauseum on here, not just by 37 Signals but by many other
posts. I've slowly learned to ignore the noise generated by this but not
always successfully. It's like chewing gum for your brain except you can
easily get sucked into a wasteful time sink.

~~~
rhizome
_I've slowly learned to ignore the noise generated by this but not always
successfully._

Yeah, the problem is that we're always dropping into the middle of this
continuous rehash-posting cycle. When you spot a topic that may be new to you,
that could still just be a reaction post.

------
rmason
How many of their customers buy on someone else's recommendation? Sure they
only get $300 a month directly from the readers of HN.

But I get asked several times a month to recommend solutions and though I've
personally never used more than the free version of Basecamp I've probably
sold a dozen subscriptions for them. By targetting the readers of HN they're
really just going after the influencers.

------
mixonic
37signals is posting flamebait on their blog? This is just weird. And not
worth reading.

Now go get back to building the web, you smart folks you!

------
mekoka
I think 37signals has enough _relevant_ hits on HN to their credit that
entitle them to a couple of misses. However,

 _When all is said and done, what’s our likely financial outcome from Hacker
News visitors for those 25 posts? About $300 total per month._

A bit simplistic and conveniently short-sighted view if you ask me.

------
swalsh
To be fair, 37 Signals doesn't quite have the kind of product where I go "Wow
what a great blog post, hey i've been needing such and such". When i'm
choosing software to manage my project I evaluate all choices. Only after i've
made an informed decision do I choose to sign up.

However, I can confirm with at least myself that the blog posts have given me
confidence about their product that competitors don't have. In effect their
posts have pushed me closer to using their product.

What i'm trying to get at, is that their posts are probably more effective at
sales than they're giving themselves credit for. However it's hard to measure.

------
ths
They are a high-profile shop that has just gone through major architectural
re-thinks and decided to spend some time to share their findings and give a
glimpse into their creative process. Because they are who they are, they got
some extra attention. Since they had a lot to say, they split it into many
posts. How is this bad?

Personally, I found quite a few of the posts to be a very interesting read
(especially the stuff about caching).

Please, HN-ers, let's be friendly unless there really is a pressing reason not
to be.

------
liamk
I wonder if it's helpful for hiring new developers and designers though? I
also suspect that they're able to sell more of their books that target
entrepreneurs.

------
rglover
They should have just smiled at the naysayers and went on with their day. To
post an entire article on the negativity of _one_ community seems unfocused.
My only question is: why?

Disclosure: I'm a big fan of 37signals. This is kind of a surprise.

~~~
huggyface
It isn't even the negative of one community, but rather the negativity of a
small group of people within that overarching community.

People need to realize that sources of content almost always come in waves
here on HN -- when someone makes an erudite post that makes it to the front
page, there are a lot of people who will watch that source looking to repeat
that success. And then you'll get the voters who'll vote it up just because
it's familiar, until it becomes too familiar when they'll vote it down for the
same reason.

We've seen these come in waves over the years (I've used HN far longer than
this account). Coding Horror, Daring Fireball, Marco.org, Scott Adams, Dustin
Curtis, etc. A small amount of very good content, and then lots and lots and
lots of turgid waste that makes the front page simply because the author once
did.

~~~
cooldeal
Personally I wouldn't include Coding Horror on that list and I am curious why
you would. Almost all the content seems very objective and insightful compared
to others on your list who sometimes can come across as Fox/MSNBC political
show hosts.

------
jhowell
Maybe they're recognizing that HN isn't their target market. Perhaps this
audience is more interested in technical implementation, user interface and
gorilla marketing strategies behind a successful SaaS and not in signing up
for a CRM?

------
JVIDEL
Wait, so this is not the most popular spot on the internet?

That means I'm not _statistically_ popular! Nooooooo!

------
ThinkinSoul
I like it. 37Signals has made a point throughout the years to speak their
mind.

The MUCH BETTER news is that HN is not an easily manipulated marketing tool,
thus its content stays relevant, rather than "optimized" for sales.

------
pwpwp
Friggin' meta

------
shingen
Their economic measurement is pure B.S.

$300 / month? Ok, so -

1) how many people buy, due to HN, that they can't directly attribute to a HN
follow-through click?

2) what has the exposure been worth, for literally everything they do (from
pushing books to all their services)? Particularly given the rather high value
group that they reach through HN.

Try putting a price on the massive branding and credibility they've acquired
through reaching the HN audience, and then the follow-on value. I'd argue that
their exposure on HN is worth radically more than advertising; for the same
reason your friend sharing a link directly with you is worth a zillion times
more than a block ad on facebook.

Spanning several years, I'd peg the value into the millions of dollars given
the size of their business and how hard it actually is to get traction and
exposure in their market.

~~~
cs702
I'm trying to quantify some of these secondary effects with a poll here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3680400>

------
Shtirlic
300$ ? it's okay ;)

