
The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans - FabHK
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2017/03/divided-we-fail
======
bandrami
They do this every few sessions and the commission never acts on it.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Source?

~~~
vanattab
From 2013 [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-
room/20130910IPR1...](http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-
room/20130910IPR19556/ep-backs-rules-allowing-suspension-of-visa-free-travel-
only-as-a-last-resort)

~~~
_delirium
That seems more like the initiation of the current process. They adopted rules
in 2013 requiring reciprocity and specifying a series of steps to take if
there isn't any, with revocation of visa-free travel to the EU an option as a
"last resort". The vote today is claiming that those other steps have been
tried and failed regarding the U.S. (unlike with some other countries, like
Canada, where progress was made), and therefore advocates taking up that last
resort, which was authorized in 2013 but has never yet been invoked. I do
agree that there is a good chance the EU Commission will attempt to avoid
doing so, though.

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metachris
The reason being that the US still requires visas from 5 EU countries:
Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Poland and Romania.

And "The EU says it notified the United States in April 2014 that it was not
meeting EU visa rules, and had given the country two years to comply."

~~~
maho
You are forgetting the "Visa Waiver Program". Essentially, the rest of us
Europeans are required to fill out detailed forms, pay a fee for filling out
those forms, and then get a government-issued authorization for "visa free"
travel. Right.

~~~
FabHK
As I've said below, if you have to get a visa, you have to fill out a much
more detailed form [1], pay a fee that's 10 times higher (USD 160), and
actually visit a US consulate for an interview with an official.

So, the visa waiver alleviates the process significantly.

[1] as the law presupposes that you want to immigrate, you have to prove non-
immigration, by showing your plan to stay for a specific purpose and specific
time, and show binding ties to another country to which you will return.

------
harigov
What is going on in this world? I was reading news today that the parties on
the right side of political spectrum are gaining ground all over Europe. US
already has Republicans in power. Every country is becoming more
nationalistic. What is driving this change? AFAICT there are no major issues
that should have caused this.

~~~
am_i_down
Are you serious? It is largely a reaction to globalization and the refugee
crisis.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
> _It is largely a reaction to globalization and the refugee crisis._

If that is indeed the real reason, it means we as a species have hilariously
overblown reactions to perceived threats.

~~~
knz
And (in many countries) significantly underestimate the the threat from actual
threats like pollution and climate change.

I've been working on a project related to greenhouse gas emission savings
lately and it's depressing how "massive" gains in efficiencies are a drop in
the bucket of total emissions.

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anonymoose111
This is a non story, a few paragraphs down:

"Implementing the parliament’s recommendation would require the agreement of
all EU members, which would probably take years."

Many European countries rely heavily on US tourism, and anything to threaten
that could damage their economies.

~~~
jinglebells
Interesting. Which countries?

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bpodgursky
Yeah... Not going to happen. Americans spend billions on European vacations,
and nobody is going to threaten that when push comes to shove (any additional
hassle is going to send people to Cancun instead). This is just posturing.

~~~
sleavey
For me to go on vacation to the US, as a European citizen (outside of the 6
countries that are the reason for this action), I just need to get an ESTA for
$15 or so. I guess the EU visa will cost something similar. It's not going to
change anything.

~~~
blibble
the EU is already introducing a similar system to the ESTA regardless:
[http://www.schengenvisainfo.com/brussels-prepares-eu-wide-
sc...](http://www.schengenvisainfo.com/brussels-prepares-eu-wide-scheme-visa-
free-travel-authorisation/) (doesn't apply to Ireland or the UK)

they're proposing requiring full visas for US citizens if the US doesn't
comply, the sort where you have to book an appointment with the consulate for
an interview and pay several hundred dollars.

------
blibble
the picture in the article is of the UK Border, but the UK is not part of the
EU common visa policy.

as a result, this reintroduction of visas for US citizens will not apply to US
citizens visiting the UK (even if the change occurs pre-Brexit)

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cm2187
That being said ESTA is a visa with a fake nose.

~~~
raverbashing
As its own name say, it's an authorisation relating to a Visa Waiver Program

~~~
tonfa
And Europe will most likely introduce something like ESTA (unlike the visa
thing which won't have support from the Commission)

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pskocik
I'm for a complete and total shutdown of all Americans entering the European
Union until we figure out what the hell is going on over there.

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edko
In the past 8 years, the relations between the EU and the US had improved a
lot (despite there being some high profile espionage scandals). I truly hope
both sides can work together, and solve minor issues like these. It would
really suck to go back to the times of "Freedom Fries", especially with the
threat of inner rupture, and Russian pressure in the Baltics.

~~~
masklinn
> I truly hope both sides can work together, and solve minor issues like
> these.

The issue has been ongoing for almost 3 years (the US were notified in April
2014, alongside 4 other countries which have either resolved the issue or
announced a resolution timeline), and the latest report of the commission on
the subject (in December 2016) noted:

> Despite the stepping up of political and technical contacts, there have not
> been comparable indications of progress towards the lifting of visas with
> the U.S.

So outlook not so good, the US doesn't seem much interested.

------
fxj
Soon ETIAS will come (european counterpart of ESTA) which demands all
foreigners to register electronically and pay 5
euros.([http://www.politico.eu/article/e5-to-get-into-europe-
schenge...](http://www.politico.eu/article/e5-to-get-into-europe-schengen-
zone-travel-non-eu-citizens/))

------
geff82
The global citizen in me laughs at this decision.

The revengeful soul in me hails it (being married to an Iranian women that
should currently better not sei a foot there and myself needing a visa because
I visit Iran regularily).

The European citizen that I am takes a deep breath of calm as he knows that
this was "only" a decision in the parliament, so probably not much will happen
in real life.

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Exofunctor
> What is driving this change? AFAICT there are no major issues that should
> have caused this.

I honestly can't imagine how you could avoid exposure to any of the incredible
amount of discontent in Europe right now.

European leaders have been importing millions(!) of people from incredibly
violent, theocratic, illiterate, and regressive regions, to the detriment of
peaceful, secular, educated, and liberal Europeans who are not socially or
memetically equipped to handle such an influx of radically different and
heavily indoctrinated people. European news media emphatically denies that
anything bad is happening; "No, rape rates have only gone up a little bit! No,
we're not putting a wall around the Eiffel Tower, it's an aesthetic perimeter!
No, Sweden isn't banning christmas lights in public for Muslims; it's because
we all of a sudden realize that street lights can't structurally support
christmas lights!" Most people in Europe are not dumb enough to fall for this.

For decades, the sentiment in the European political system has been "us
last". Here's a great quote from the _President of the EU Parliament_ until
earlier this year, Martin Schulz: (and yes, it's a real quote): "For me, the
new Germany exists only in order to ensure the existence of the State of
Israel and the Jewish people."

The conclusion that any impartial observer would make is that European
politicians don't seem to give much of a shit about Europeans, and instead see
them as more of a resource to be used up for the sake of various political
causes (mass immigration is a big one, and as Mr. Schulz demonstrated, Zionism
is another).

It should come as exactly zero surprise that, at some point, Europeans are
going to get fed up with being treated like shit by their own political
system.

I'm not even European, but this sentiment is very obvious to me from my
European expat friends. A large number of them are in support of leaving the
EU in favor of increased national sovereignty (because then at least their own
interests might come into play), and those that want to stay in the EU mostly
feel that way because they falsely conflate free movement and free trade with
the existence of the EU.

The result of this discontent with (forced) social globalism is that countries
are becoming more isolationist. This led to Brexit, will possibly lead to
France leaving the EU as well (although the EU parliament is currently trying
to attack Le Pen), and who knows what next.

To be clear, I'm not happy about any of this, but I honestly don't know how
people didn't see it coming.

~~~
lispm
I object to this.

> European leaders have been importing millions

They have not imported millions.

> incredibly violent, theocratic, illiterate, and regressive regions

This is aggressive against millions of people.

> European politicians don't seem to give much of a shit about Europeans

This is hate speech.

~~~
Exofunctor
IOM and UNHCR estimated 1 million refugees back in December 2015. More since
then.

> This is aggressive against millions of people.

Not sure how. You can describe it however you like, but that won't change the
fact that it's true.

> This is hate speech.

Criticizing European politicians is hate speech? Interesting.

(Side note: this is why people don't like "hate speech" laws. A surprising
number of people think "hate speech" means essentially anything they disagree
with.)

~~~
lispm
> IOM and UNHCR estimated 1 million refugees back in December 2015. More since
> then.

True, but they have not been 'imported' by politicians. These people fled from
the war in Syria. Germany has a right for these people to ask for asylum in
its constitution. Unlimited.

> Criticizing European politicians is hate speech

Claiming that European politicians give a shit (his words) about their
citizens is not 'criticizing' anything. It's just hate speech against
politicians.

I don't agree with Merkel in many things, but I'm pretty sure that she cares a
lot about Germans. Practically every German politician does.

~~~
Exofunctor
> Claiming that European politicians give a shit (his words) about their
> citizens is not 'criticizing' anything. It's just hate speech against
> politicians

This is probably the strongest invocation of Poe's law I've seen in the last
few years.

~~~
lispm
It was you who said that.

I'm European and German. I feel well supported by politicians like Merkel and
Schulz. Both are among the most popular politicians in Germany and there is a
reason Merkel is chancellor: people have voted for her politics. After the
next election either Merkel or Schulz will be chancellor.

------
lispm
> Most people in Europe are not dumb enough to fall for this.

Most people in Europe are not dumb enough to fall for your nonsense.

> and yes, it's a real quote

It isn't.

> I'm not even European

I am.

~~~
dang
> _dumb enough to fall for your nonsense_

You can't comment like this here, so please don't. Yes, the GP started it with
the 'dumb enough', but the 'your nonsense' clearly crosses into personal
incivility and we ban accounts that do that.

We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13786872](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13786872)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
lispm
I am European, don't believe anything like what he claims and thus he called
me dumb enough.

Why is his posting allowed, which claimed that European politicians literally
are given A SHIT about their citizens?????? Read his post.

Sorry, European politicians give a lot of SHIT (his words) about their
citizens and I find it extremely offensive to claim otherwise.

He also made extremely negative and racist statements about refugees who fled
to Europe from the war in Syria.

Double standards. Allowing racist posts...

------
DiegoRamirez
the EP is doing tit-for-tat when there is no tit-for-tat!

~~~
vslira
"The main reason for the vote is the way that travellers from some EU
countries are treated by America. While most citizens of EU countries can
travel to the United States without a visa, those from Bulgaria, Croatia,
Cyprus, Poland and Romania must still obtain one. Because the EU demands equal
treatment of all its citizens in such matters, it says it is legally obliged
to fight back."

I won't say it's a good idea - the vote is not even binding, btw -, but at
least there's a reasoning behind it. EU wants to be treated as a country[1]
and no country accepts different visa requirement for their states.

[1] Maybe

------
edpichler
When I was a kid I learnt about globalization, and the world getting smaller.

What a strange times are we witnessing? Technology and Internet approaching
us, while politics tries to separate.

------
lend000
The sooner the EU dissolves, the better.

~~~
castis
Yeah? What makes you say that?

~~~
lend000
The EU is composed of seven major institutions, only one of which has direct
representation by voters (the EU parliament), and the number of
representatives of each country is (roughly) proportional to their size, so
any given voter of a small EU country has effectively zero representation. The
EU is very far from a democratic, representative system, and yet it hold
tremendous power over its 'constituents.' Not to mention the irresponsible ECB
policies and fiscal safety net draining the few remaining EU countries with
any wealth... I'd like to see more state sovereignty and individual
sovereignty return to Europe.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_Parliament)

The freedom of trade and movement that the EU brought is great, but I suspect
that for the most part, that can be negotiated without a 'super-government'
making the rules.

~~~
Findeton
The problem is that the EU is organized in such a way that it is at an
intermediate stage between it being just a bunch of different nations and it
being something similar to the USA. We need more EU and less nationalism to
become something similar to the USA, we need a bigger EU government and
smaller nations governments. The EU government is about 1% of the GDP and the
nations governments are 50%, we need to reverse those numbers.

Of course I agree that the EU is not very democratic right, we also need to
change that.

~~~
blibble
> The EU government is about 1% of the GDP

this is not actually true, the way the EU has been setup is very clever: it
does not attribute a large proportion of costs directly incurred by its
policies to itself.

when powers are transferred to the EU, the national institutions used to
implement those powers (that previously served the national government)
remain, but now implement the EU's legislative program, but the costs incurred
doing so are still paid by the national treasuries.

prime examples are civil aviation, food safety and agriculture policy.

these departments are essentially operated by and for the EU, yet the expenses
of those departments are not correctly attributed to the EU.

if these expenses were correctly attributed for that 1% would likely be 3-4x
higher, and people would be a lot more upset.

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youeeeeeediot
The EU is not a sovereign country, its political and economic union. The US is
under no obligation to accept all 28-member countries as equal.

~~~
genericpseudo
No-one claimed it was! It's hardball negotiation. In this, the US meets the
EU's demands or it doesn't get what it wants.

