
Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes - prostoalex
http://angelinatravels.boardingarea.com/2017/03/15/uber-driver-tip-hustling-schemes-getting-control/
======
redm
No Tipping is one of the main reasons I liked Uber; no cash, no pressure, you
just get out of the car and walk away with everyone happy. I would rather pay
more for each fare and have Uber aggressively prohibit tipping. I suspect many
people feel the same way and if Uber doesn't get it under control, it could be
the biggest challenge they face.

~~~
grecy
As a non-American this is how I feel about tipping in general.

It's so much easier to just pay people a decent wage, include it in the cost
of things and then not have the pressure of tipping.

That, and tipping is akin to having paid servants. i.e. " _if_ you do a good
job, and _if_ I feel like it, I _might_ give you some of my wad of cash. Or
not, sucker.".

(Of course, I do tip because the servers rely on it, I just don't like it)

~~~
xxs
In the EU, tipping is half legal -- technically it should be declared income
and pay all income+social taxes ++ VAT(!) as the tip is not a direct salary
but a service (and hence subject of VAT)

~~~
tim333
In the UK, which is still EU for now, you don't have to register for VAT until
your income is £83k so most waiters will be ok on that one.

------
brandonbloom
I'm only a little surprised that nobody has suggested this, but: If the driver
does something shady, just get out of the car. Immediately. Don't even give
them the opportunity to apologize for it.

I've had drivers call ahead to ask where I'm going. I just hang up on them,
cancel the ride, then order another ride. While I'm in the car with a new
driver, I report the incident using the in-app system and, on many occasions,
they even grant me a credit!

Similarly, I've had on at least two occasions where the drivers did obviously
stupid, unsafe things within the first 30 seconds of a ride. I ask them to
pull over, and I just quietly get out of the car, report the incident, walk
away, and order another driver.

~~~
roel_v
Never used Uber, what's the problem with someone knowing where you're going?
Doesn't the app tell the driver before they pick you up? (Well I guess not, or
they wouldn't call you...)

~~~
wiwofone
The destination shows up when the ride starts (i.e. you get in the car).
Calling beforehand is a an indication that the driver might want to cancel the
ride if the destination is "inconvenient" (e.g. from city center to a remote
suburb).

~~~
turtles
This is a big problem with taxi drivers is australia. At 2am you'll be lucky
to get a taxi home, because they change over at 3, so they don't like to go 10
minutes in the opposite direction.

I'm glad there is the Uber alternative!

~~~
Cub3
It turned into a safety issue too with stories about women being stranded
because the fare was 'too low' or 'in the wrong direction' for the driver

------
iopq
I drive Uber from time to time. I've only gotten a tip once over ~50 rides.

A lot of the time the traffic conditions mean that after costs (I assume $0.40
per mile costs for mileage, gas, maintenance, etc.) my hourly is closer to $8
an hour (because after I drive for a while sometimes I need to drive a long
way back as well on my own dime), which is below minimum wage. That's not
including having to pick up plastic bottles after people or cleaning seats so
they don't smell like sweat.

It's basically never worth to pick up anyone who is going far away from your
house, you end up actually driving for free since you have to drive there and
EVENTUALLY drive home. Why do you think Uber drivers don't want to drive 40
minutes away just to get paid less than if they drove for 40 minutes inside
their own city? I'll never accept a ride to San Francisco (40 minutes away)
ever again, it's never worth the price unless there's surge pricing in effect.

If I make $8-12 an hour, getting a $1 tip is like a 10% increase in my wage. I
don't badger people for tips, but if I got like 10% of people to tip me, it
would be super worth. The one tip I got was $20, btw. Even if we assume a 12%
tip rate up from 2% if I ask for them explicitly, and the average tip size of
$5 (median would be more like $2, but if I get a few more $20 tips the average
would be higher than the median), I would make $0.50 more per hour which is a
5% increase in my earnings.

Maybe it's something I should actually start doing.

~~~
taneq
Maybe you can explain something that I've never understood. I see drivers
saying "driving for Uber is terrible and a waste of money". I see them saying
"after expenses I'm basically working for free." But _they keep doing it_.
They keep driving for Uber even though they _know_ that they're basically just
working for free, in order to make money for Uber. If you take vehicle
depreciation into account, you're probably not even breaking even.

Why? Why do that? My guess is that it's easy work to get and it gives you some
immediate cash, and so it's more appealing than spending the time hunting for
a 'real' job, but I've never heard an Uber driver actually admit that.

~~~
snowwrestler
The implied social judgment whenever Uber drivers come up is a bummer.

Yes, people prefer to make a little bit of money instead of not having money.
This is surprising?

And when someone earns a little bit of money, they might wish that they made
more money. Again--not news.

I think before getting critical about why Uber drivers are so dumb, it's worth
thinking about why you don't drive for Uber. The answer probably starts with
"because I don't feel like I have to." It does for me.

If someone has a great highly-paying full time job and still drives for Uber,
then sure, question that person's judgment. Most Uber drivers are not in that
situation though.

~~~
ClassyJacket
But the comment you're replying to is saying what's the point in working
literally for free or at a loss? Sure, if you're not making much, that's one
thing, but actually making zero is what they were talking about.

~~~
snowwrestler
The post above that one (the actual Uber driver) says that their hourly rate
is about $8, not $0.

Nobody wakes up in the morning and says "today I'm going to drive for Uber
literally for free." Of course not. Let's use a little common sense here.

Uber drivers expect, plan, hope to make money. The point is, they don't make
much, and sometimes it's very little (like on a long fare).

So the question is, then why do they keep doing it? And I'm just suggesting
that maybe a lot of them don't have a higher-paying alternative that they are
dumbly choosing against.

~~~
chrisseaton
> I'm just suggesting that maybe a lot of them don't have a higher-paying
> alternative

This still doesn't make any sense. If you are losing money working for Uber,
then you do have access to a higher paying alternative - which is literally
standing in your house and doing nothing. Because zero is greater than a
negative amount.

I think there are really three explanations that make sense:

People are not literally losing money working for Uber, or maybe they are
sometimes but not overall at the end of the month, and they're just
rhetorically exaggerating in frustration.

People are literally losing money working for Uber but only when you include
depreciation of their car, and that is a long term cost, so people are
effectively taking a loan from their future selves.

People are literally losing money working for Uber but morally feel that they
should be working rather than not working, even if there is no economic reason
for them to do so, and they just hope their situation will improve in the
future.

~~~
amyjess
A fourth:

People are literally losing money working for Uber but enjoy driving as a
hobby, and Uber helps them recoup at least some of the costs of driving around
all the time.

(yes, I've had drivers tell me they do Uber/Lyft for fun because they love
driving)

~~~
Neliquat
I love to drive, and while being a taxi/uber sounds like fresh hell to me, I
know I would represent myself as 'driving because I love it' in my shitty ford
to save face when I am trading the equity in my car i am still paying off for
food in a downward spiral of depression and poverty. People who love to drive,
drive sports cars, not taxis.

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dataminded
I don't agree with the argument that passengers should tip because Uber isn't
paying their drivers enough. That sounds like welfare for Uber. If the pay
sucks, Uber should have trouble recruiting drivers.

~~~
djsumdog
I really hate tipping culture in America. In Germany, servers are surprised if
you give them anything more thana euro. I have friends who visit from non
tipping cultures who ask "Why isn't it just included in the price!"

I agree with the author. Tipping is out of hand. Charge more for food, clearly
state it on the menu/check, remove the tip black on the receipt and pay people
a decent wage!

~~~
mikepurvis
I don't mind tipping in principle, but I _really_ hate the payment terminals
that are preconfigured with outrageous options, so it prompts you to pick 20%,
25%, 30%, "other", so you feel like a total sleaze giving a normal 10-15% tip.

It's the worst when I'm picking up takeout from a restaurant that also has
tables. Like, am I supposed to tip in this scenario? Do I have to go into
"other" to tip less than 20% for being handed a brown bag?

~~~
fletchowns
I still tip the normal amount when I get takeout from a restaurant that has
tables.

~~~
calc_exe
Is this normal? I never tip for takeout..

~~~
nilram
A friend is a cook who says that even at decent restaurants, cooks don't get
paid much and they get just a minimal share of tips. So when I get takeout, I
tip 10-20% and say "Thank-you, here's something for the kitchen." Sometimes I
get thanks in return, sometimes just a sour look from a server who expected
something more for putting my order in a bag. I have no idea what they'll do
with the cash, but hopefully some of it gets to the back of the house.

~~~
lostboys67
Does the US not have the Tronc system?

~~~
nilram
The cash aspect was incidental. "Front of the house" workers here net a
significantly higher take-home because they are the ones receiving the tips
and what they pass on to others is typically discretionary. Even many of the
best establishments will pay cooks subsistence wages. A few restaurants are
going tipless, raising prices slightly and discouraging tips, so they can
distribute pay more equitably, but then they can have problems retaining wait
staff.

------
losteverything
I guess most of HN never were so broke that they can't put themselves in the
place of a worker who can receive a tip.

Tips go directly to a person. Often a low paying or second job. It is about
generosity and helping a fellow person. It's not about economic theory or even
JUST how they served you.

The tip -$1 or $2 or $5 gets the person a gallon of gas. A meal. A cup of
coffee. It helps pay off a bill. It is savings for their childs prom dress. It
pays for food.

It allows the tip receiver to be generous themselves (1). To have extra to tip
others. (The largest tippers are or were poor) One of lifes most enjoyable
things is to be generous.

Tipping shows a lot about the tipper, too.

If Tipping to my fellow HNers is only about placing a value on the service
given, then I say you don't know the entire story of working a job where tips
make a real difference.

Ask your next uber driver why they are working.

(1) last month I had a fellow give me a $200 tip. The next night a neighbor
came over and said her mom just died. She used to live with her and now in a
home. Eventually she asked to borrow $20. Well. I don't ever have an extra $20
anymore but I was able to give her $100 because I got the tip.

~~~
nilkn
This sort of post is actually yet another reason why I dislike tipping
culture. I'm being guilted/pressured -- and not even by a driver -- into
supporting a system in which drivers are underpaid and every customer has to
individually think about how they can make up for that.

When/if lots of customers start regularly tipping, I fear Uber will just take
advantage of the situation to reduce wages even lower -- untenably so. This
will end up forcing all drivers to be completely reliant on tips. And once
that happens, there's pretty much no going back.

This is an opportunity to have a major service that finally does away with
tipping in the US. I don't think we should bend over backwards so easily and
just give up on that possibility.

~~~
cptskippy
The difficult thing here is that neither of you are wrong.

------
blhack
I'd love if an economist of somebody with a better financial background could
comment on this:

When you're giving a tip, you're effectively giving money to the people who
own the company (or participate in profit sharing). Tips allow employers to
pay their employees under market rate. By paying enough tip to bring the
employee's wage up to the market rate, you are subsidizing the _company 's_
profit, not the employees profit.

Tips are bad for employees because they are inconsistent, bad for consumers
because the price of goods are not well-indicated, and good for employers
because it allows them to offset their labor cost by hiding it in tips, which
they have convinced consumers are going to the employees as a perk.

So I don't know that I agree that the Uber app should implement tips (from a
consumer _or_ an employee standpoint). They should charge me more money (or
rather, charge me the same as I am paying now, just make it more consistent),
and pay their employees more money.

I wish they would do both of these things.

~~~
ryandrake
Yea, I don't get where this idea came from that tipping is either good for the
employee or good for the customer. The employee is getting paid a crappy wage
and the customer is being guilt-tripped into making up for it. The only winner
is the employer.

~~~
SilasX
Don't forget that you're implicitly paying a premium to compensate for the
unpredictability/lumpiness/[1] of the tips!

[1] as well as "the presence of people who deliberately flout the
expectations" and whose non-payment must be made up, in expectation, by more
honest customers.

~~~
blhack
So essentially subsidizing the profit of the employer _and_ subsidizing the
cost of the goods that people who aren't adhering to the implied price
structure are paying (non-tippers)!

I wonder how this came about? Like was this something a clever businessperson
invented at some point? It sounds like the US is the only place with a tipping
culture like ours.

~~~
SilasX
I don't think "subsidizing profit" is an effect of the tipping system; what
the restaurant gains in lower wages, it loses in higher effective food prices.

In fact, I think, ignoring the tax evasion effect, the tipping system reduces
profitability, because it scares away business by that "compensate-for-
unpredictability" tax, which takes from what could be restaurant revenue.

------
jayess
My uber drivers have been steadily dropping in quality, more often than not
taking the wrong directions to my destination, despite the fact that the GPS
_right in front of them_ tells them where to go.

I've been using Lyft more and more lately. Drivers just seem.... better. And I
don't mind tipping in the app.

~~~
Thriptic
I agree. I'm consistently amazed at how many people I end up giving sub-five
star ratings to these days, and I have been a huge proponent and defender of
Uber in the past.

If you pick me up promptly, follow your GPS, have a car that is functional,
and either engage me in pleasant conversation or say nothing at all besides
'hello', I will give you five stars. Many drivers seem to act as if they are
driving their friends around as opposed to driving their clients around.

~~~
kbenson
> I'm consistently amazed at how many people I end up giving sub-five star
> ratings

That in itself is possibly a contributing problem. Incentives go all wonky
when four-star ratings essentially don't exist. Five-star ratings should be
reserved for _exceptional_ service, and three-star ratings should be for
average service, not "I'm unhappy with this but not enough that _I won 't feel
bad_ giving a _negative_ review, so I'll give it three stars." People don't
know how to rate, and it makes all our rating systems much less accurate.

~~~
Thriptic
It is because of the rating system ambiguity that five stars is the norm. It
signals that there is unequivocally nothing wrong. Anything less than five
stars could be interpreted in many ways and is very subjective: did the user
have a problem or do they just rate differently? It is why five star rating is
also the standard for acceptability on Amazon and Ebay.

Personally I don't care if there is no incentive to go above and beyond the
base level of service. All I want and expect is the base level of service. If
you want to reward epic service, do so with off the books tipping.

~~~
kbenson
> Personally I don't care if there is no incentive to go above and beyond the
> base level of service. All I want and expect is the base level of service.

This is the exact problem. A base level of service should be three stars, but
people have been conditioned to read five stars as base level, and anything
below as problematic. The whole point of a rating system is to get an idea of
what to expect. When different people rate on different metrics, the data
doesn't actually represent what you think it does (whichever metric you
subscribe to).

The only reason anything less than five stars is interpreted weirdly is
because people started rating weirdly and then start taking that into
consideration when looking at the ratings, and it gets all confused. Many of
these ratings systems _clearly_ state what each rating level means, and people
_still_ don't rate by those criteria. People have been culturally
indoctrinated to rate things incorrectly (that is, they specifically don't
follow the instructions in lieu of following what has _become_ the norm). This
compresses one end of the spectrum which leads to loss of fidelity on that
end. It's clearly worse than a system where people actually followed the
criteria and we could actually identify a five star average as exceptional, a
four star as good, and a three star as sufficient.

------
coolsdude2282
I just made an account to post this, a factor that isn't really being brought
up by any of the comments I've seen in this conversation is drugs and other
illicit practices used by Uber drivers to make money.

I have known several drivers who sold marijuana, small individual shot
bottles, smoking papers, flavored cigar papers, and other 'party related
favors' out of their cars to make their Uber driving more profitable. Without
this source of income made from people going to/from parties and bars on
weekends, alongside their actual ride fares, their profit margin is not even
worth the time.

These 'tipping' hustles are frankly extremely mild in comparison to my
experiences. I'm of the opinion that these hustles are publicly frowned upon,
but in practice are not effectively policed on purpose. If Uber policed these
sorts of practices in an effective way(like if they had cameras/monitors in
cars) they would lose a substantial portion of their drivers instantly.

~~~
trevyn
While I don't doubt this happening, where are you located? I've taken over
1,200 Uber rides in the Bay Area and LA, at all times of day, and have not
once been solicited for drugs or smoke shop/convenience store items. (Plenty
of other hustles, though.)

~~~
coolsdude2282
My experience getting offered relates to southern/midwestern states, TN/NC/GA
stand out to me, and the drivers I've met/spoken with who did this most
regularly operated in areas of Atlanta and its surrounding suburbs
specifically.

Although I have also experienced this several times in the upper Midwest. I
suspect there might be some bias in my physical appearance that makes me get
offered more? Several drivers had a sort of setup where they had goods in a
box/console and opened it to make the offer, so it seems likely that if they
didn't feel a fare to be the partying type they would simply not make the
offer? One I saw had an entire cooler setup.

Another possible explanation could be that in very competitive areas like LA
or the Bay the rank/yank system cuts out bad drivers more quickly than middle-
america where there is maybe not as large of a pool of people applying to be
drivers?

I have never had a bad or sketchy ride in Bay/NYC/Chicago/Dallas. (I have had
no experience with Uber in LA)

------
TheChaplain
Born and raised in northern Europe I find the US tipping culture weird. To me,
tips are a bonus for service that goes above and beyond the expected.

~~~
untog
Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast when wages are so low. Bartenders
are typically paid next to nothing and depend on tips, whereas in Europe they
are paid a decent amount and don't need tips to get by.

Unfortunately US politics means this won't change any time soon. Evidently
it's simpler for every American to carry around spare dollar bills every day
than it is to pass meaningful legislation.

~~~
iamaelephant
If Americans would stop tipping then the current wages would become untenable
and the restaurants and bars would lose staff. They would need to increase
wages (and prices) accordingly. This is something the American people have the
power to change without legislation.

~~~
arebop
In a sense you are right, but practically speaking individuals can't morally
unilaterally defect from tipping. When nearly everyone agrees that 15% is the
tip for normal performance, and one person leaves 0% for normal performance,
that one person is free-riding and effectively hurting an innocent victim.

One practical solution would be to close the minimum wage loophole for tipped
employees. The difference between the two minima is the presumptive value of
the normal tip, so this is a means by which you can coordinate an instant and
universal change from relying on tips to having no reliance on tips. It's not
exactly ideal, given that everyone knows waiters typically make a lot more in
tips and evaded tax than that difference, but it is at least consistent and
nominally fair.

I am not sure what other practical solutions you might have in mind.

~~~
cortesoft
I saw your reply right after I made mine... finally someone else who
understands the problem of collective action!

------
nomnombunty
Uber pool is just a terrible experience in many levels

1\. Many drivers think they make less if the passengers are using Uber pool. I
am not sure if this is true or if they are confused. However, when they find
out I am using pool they instantly turn passive aggressive and start
complaining how they make nothing on a pool ride. They make me feel as if I am
taking advantage of them.

2\. Uber also tries to pack the car these days. A lot of times, it is probably
much faster taking public transit than using pool. One time, my pool ride was
just going around picking up people and 15 minutes later I was exactly a block
from where I started. I got off the ride and Uber has the balls to charged me
$10 for "cancelling". Decided to quit Uber on that very day. Will only ride
public transit or Lyft these days

~~~
hkmurakami
Aren't there a few different pool "aggressiveness" options you can choose
from?

------
elmigranto
Tips are a way for an owner to scam personnel out of decent salary. There is
literally 0 reasons to have it these days. Every issue they were designed to
solve either disappeared, easily solvable, or when solved via tipping leads to
more significant problems.

Low income? Pay workers more. No one thinks it's a good idea to start tipping,
say, teachers.

Can't afford higher salary? Split X% of profits among (smaller) staff. No one
sells furniture for 10% less, halving cashier salary and making tips a
requirement.

Suffering of preferential treatment of tippers (like giving out seats for
money)? Fine or fire offending personnel. Why what effectively a bribe
considered okay in these cases?

But no, somehow US culture still decides it's better to move that pressure and
responsibility onto the customer provoking conflicts.

------
Shalle135
I'm from Sweden and generally I never tip anything for any service available -
neither does the absolute majority of my countrymen - with the exception of
being on vacation in other countries or eating at some real fancy restaurant.

I were in US a couple years ago and found it pretty emberrasing how people are
expecting a tip. I understand that they're paid less and i've spoken with some
of them and waitresses etc may make about $3/h+tip. It's not the customers job
to see to it that the employees stay at their job - it's the companies. At the
hotel bar we had some kind of happy hour where everything was free which of
course made it a bit crowded so unless you held up a tip / bribe the bartender
just ignored you.

I understand that there are cultural differences but in my opinion you get a
tip for a job well done - but it's ALWAYS optional and you should never feel
obligated to give one.

~~~
aaronbrethorst

        Tips are often a major source of compensation
        for wait staff and other U.S. service providers.
        Employers often pay these employees lower wages
        in anticipation that tip income will provide a
        significant portion of the employees' income.
        Customers should realize that they are not
        auotmatically paying 'more' (due to tipping).
        In non-tipping countries, the tips are simply
        built into the price of the food.  An advantage
        to tipping, therefore, is the ability to tip
        whatever is appropriate: if the service is
        poor, a small tip should be left, signaling
        to the server that their service was subpar.
    

[https://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g191-s606/United-
States:T...](https://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g191-s606/United-
States:Tipping.And.Etiquette.html)

~~~
Shalle135
I understand that they count on it as salary, it's the same with the Uber
drivers - they don't make enough so they depend on the tip. Either way it's
not acceptable - if they can't support themselves on the wages they have they
should demand higher wages from their employers who equally raise the cost of
the product.

~~~
Moru
And pay tax for it as is the social contract for all other wages...

------
zdean
Serious question for those who are pro-tipping...where do you draw the line?
How do you choose which products/services are tip-worthy and which aren't?

~~~
gcr
Whenever worker exploitation is involved (such as in this case), or when the
worker materially relies on tips to stay afloat, I always try to tip.

Wherever it's accepted by society, I also generally tip.

~~~
amgin3
Then you are just enabling that process to continue. You are subsidizing their
wages and making it seem ok for their employer to pay them peanuts.

I don't tip anyone and tipping is not a common practice where I live. In fact,
most people would feel insulted if you gave them a tip here.

~~~
snuxoll
> You are subsidizing their wages and making it seem ok for their employer to
> pay them peanuts.

You're going to end up paying for it either way. But yes, I agree - I'd rather
get rid of the culture of tipping and just pay a reasonable price for a
service.

The thing that really sucks though, is per federal law an employer paying the
'tipping minimum wage' is required to make up the difference if an employee
makes below the normal minimum wage - they almost never do from what I can
tell. By choosing to not tip not only am I just being an asshole, but the
employer won't change anything either because the chance of them being caught
being a douchebag is slim.

------
wwwdonohue
Did Uber change the way they deal with driver ratings? Their "rank and yank"
system [1] was once the object of considerate consternation. You would think
that it would have been quite effective at dealing with "aggressive, tip-
hustling" drivers.

[1] [http://www.ridesharingdriver.com/low-uber-driver-ratings-
a-c...](http://www.ridesharingdriver.com/low-uber-driver-ratings-a-checklist-
to-bring-them-back-up/)

~~~
raldi
What does "rank and yank" mean? It's not mentioned on the page you linked to.

~~~
pmorici
They cut anyone with a rating below X where X is determined market by market
in order to balance out the number of new drivers they have coming in with the
number of drivers they are cutting for bad ratings and also taking into
account growth for demand in the market. In new or rapidly growing markets
they hardly cut anyone ever but in mature markets with ample supplies of
drivers they demand a very high average rating. At one point the cut off for
being let go in LA for example was something like 4.6 out of 5.

~~~
toomuchtodo
It appears only the desperate drivers are left in the system, making ranking
and yanking self-defeating unless Uber wants to continue to canabilize its
diminishing capacity.

------
Kronopath
Lyft has a good solution for this, in that they prompt you to give a tip
_through the app_ at the end of the ride. More and more they're seeming like
the (at least marginally) more ethical and sane ride-sharing app.

~~~
acheron
But tipping sucks. That was one of the reasons Uber was better than Lyft in
the first place.

Then some assholes sued and now Uber drivers are allowed to ask for tips. Nice
job breaking it, hero.

~~~
slater
Why does tipping suck?

~~~
whistlerbrk
People shouldn't need to beg for money in order to have a stable income when
they are already working regular hours. The cash flow problems it creates for
individuals and the awkward social dance it makes is problematic for everyone.
No one likes two prices, they want to know what they are paying ahead of time
everything included, any extras/feeds/charges/gratuities make for a bad
customer experience

------
rdl
I think Uber drivers try to solicit tips from female passengers far more often
than from male passengers. I rarely tip Uber, have taken hundreds of rides,
and have never been solicited.

(When I do tip on Uber, it is either going to the airport overseas to get rid
of spare cash, or if something exceprional happened. I've taken UberX in major
snowstorms and in that case happily tip $20. I left a laptop in an Uber and
got it returned to me within 5 minutes, I tipped $50.)

------
crisopolis
I do Uber part-time but only deliveries (UberEats). I get tipped from time to
time and I have no expectation on the tip. I also don't have the problem of
driving for free as the restaurants have a radius and usually I'll be near
another place or return to my spot to sit for a bit.

I find tipping awkward as the courier. Sometimes people like to explain they
don't have cash to tip me and I have to explain tipping isn't expected on
Uber's platform so don't worry about it. Other times there shoving $5 bills at
me for driving 1.0mi down the street.

As a customer I've yet to tip a Uber driver as other stated I don't carry cash
only plastic. Same goes with getting my car detailed ... Do I give them $20 on
top of the $100 or leave it at $100.

Then I think how many drivers actually report the tips they make to the IRS.

------
Overtonwindow
What bothers me is that I don't want to tip in cash, and I never carry cash.
Put tipping in the app for AFTER I get out of the car and AFTER the driver has
given the rating. No rating, no tip.

------
hamandcheese
> Then I’ve discovered first-hand that more and more Uber riders are calling
> ahead to ask for your destination to see if it’s “worth it” to pick you up.

When I use Uber the first question it asks is the destination. I assume this
is seen by the driver, no? Why would they have to call?

~~~
shalmanese
Ridesharing apps don't reveal destination to the driver until they arrive at
the pickup. This is to prevent drivers from only picking good rides and
leaving riders in the lurch. One of the main selling point of Uber in some
cities is that they would get you to places taxis refused to go.

~~~
dorfsmay
I thought Uber was about pure capitalism, with surge pricing and all. I
actually thought that drivers knew the destination and that the price was
going up until a driver accepted the ride.

------
cavisne
No tipping has been a big driver of success for Uber. Americans dont realise
they are the only people who in the world who "tip" for completely average
service/just doing your job.

------
mthoodlum
I drove for Uber in a resort town and was appalled by how difficult it was to
make any money at it even though I was paid twice the metro rates. The biggest
problem is all the unpaid work and investment Uber drivers have to make just
to drive for Uber and then Uber takes a huge cut.

There are a lot of sunken costs involved in becoming an Uber driver. The
driver then has to recover those costs with miserable earnings. I suspect the
burn rate of Uber drivers is unsustainably high.

------
dominotw
Tipping is awkward and unpleasant. It is the number one reason I use uber.

~~~
snowwrestler
Did we read the same blog post?

Uber's inconsistent and awkward tipping scheme is a big reason I don't use
them.

~~~
hug
Uber's tipping scheme is extremely transparent: Don't tip.

The "self employed contractors" who pick you up may have tipping schemes
inconsistent with one another, though.

------
nopassrecover
In Australia we've tried tipping Uber drivers (e.g. because we've
inconvenienced them with a stop to pickup food on the way home) and so far
after 5 occasions no driver has accepted the tip (taxi drivers accept a tip
without question, and usually won't accommodate short trips, despite the law,
yet alone special requests).

~~~
ezzaf
I've had the same experience in Poland. Tried to tip a driver who'd gone above
and beyond in helping me out, and the driver refused to accept the tip.

The whole thing seems to illustrate just how far out of whack tipping
expectations are in the US compared to the rest of the world.

------
synicalx
Simple solution, bad reviews for drivers that demand tips - the problem fixes
itself when Uber stops giving them fares.

------
nickjarboe
Many cultures and sub-cultures don't believe in tipping for many different
reasons. These cultures exist all over the globe and in the US. When tipping
is needed to provide a decent wage for a service, people from these 'no
tipping' cultures will tend to get bad to no service. Taxi services are
heavily criticized for this behavior. I think it is great at least one of the
two major smartphone hailed car services has a default culture of not tipping.
Drivers can choose which they like better.

Uber rides are very cheap at the moment, especially when you get an Uber Pool
and no one joins. I hope they up the fares some and pass them on to drivers
and keep tipping for special extra-ordinary service. Uber is so much more
convenient than conventional taxi service and I sure hope it or some similar
service continues into the future.

------
ziikutv
I remembered getting hustled to buy my driver McDonalds then coming home to
realize I got billed $36 dollars for his time; a trip that usually costs $9.
He guilt me into thinking he does not get paid the more he waits. Alcohol...

~~~
ziikutv
Oh! Forget to say this, I bought him McChicken and Fries. And a Poutine for
me.

------
CodeSheikh
In some countries tipping is perceived very negatively. I have had my tip
money almost thrown on my face as the server accused me of taking him as a
"beggar". They earn good money and they take pride in their serving jobs.
Greedy American institutions have shoved this concept of tipping down the
consumer throats. Increase my food prices or driving rates, and I would be
happy to pay them than haggle with every other service industry person about
shorting them a $1 or $2.

------
Negative1
Curious; are Uber or Lyft drivers penalized at all for canceling? I had a Lyft
driver a few weeks back call me and ask where I was, which is odd since the
app tells him. Turns out he was on the wrong side of the street. Instead of
just turning around, he just says "bye", hangs up and cancels the trip. Was
annoying for me since I had been waiting for 10 minutes at this point but it
seemed like a real poor choice on his part.

~~~
lavezzi
Apparently not. We had a driver the other day in Park City, UT who told us
that Uber drivers are no longer held to a minimum trip acceptance rate.
Whether this is true or not he said Uber lost a lawsuit and could no longer
apply the rule.

He then proceeded to tell us with great glee that his trick was to go offline
in-between trips until the surge price hit at least a 5-6x multiplier. He
would then go back online and pick a fare that suited him. It explained why
all of the Ubers and Lyfts there were insanely expensive.

I've never seen anyone so happy to tell me to my face that he was ripping me
off, and he even had the cheek to ask for a 5* rating at the end of the trip.

~~~
Spooky23
Why would you be upset? It's just a participant in the free market playing the
game. After all you just can hang around for a few hours for the surge to end.

~~~
lavezzi
My point is that there is no end to the surge because they are all doing it.
If the drivers are artificially limiting supply at all times then why wouldn't
I be upset that I'm getting ripped off? Not once during my four day stay did I
see the surge price go under 2x.

------
mmel
Won't peole rate uber drivers who do this poorly?

------
AndrewKemendo
I've been increasingly using taxis, especially at airports because uber and
lyft are turning into gypsy cabs. Forgetting that it often takes longer to get
an uber, the number of times I've been pitched on some perfume or religious
thing is really skyrocketing.

Everyone has a side hustle to their side hustle now and it's generally
concerning as an indicator of the economy.

------
bitwize
It's not just Uber -- I've seen tip jars out in Australian food stalls with
signs exhorting patrons to tip.

I like not having to tip, too, but it's like the Prisoner's Dilemma: once
somebody starts successfully collecting tips, everybody else feels pressure to
ask for them and then the whole economy adjusts to accommodate them. That's
how I think we got where we are.

~~~
ehmish
There are tip jars, but there's no expectation to tip (at least in Sydney),
it's just a thing if you're feeling generous that day.

~~~
bitwize
Maybe this is a thing that is starting up north and slowly working its way
south? In Brisbane, nobody asked for, or per se expected tips, but a tip jar
was present often with a handwritten sign that said "Tipping is good karma" or
"Tippers are sexy" or similar.

------
nunez
With Uber increasingly squeezing profits out of their drivers, this was 100%
bound to happen. I am more surprised that Uber allows drivers that request
tips to continue driving with them. If they really want that extra cash, then
they should just go full-time on Lyft, especially now with all of the drama
they're going through.

------
ProfessorLayton
My recent policy is to not answer my phone or texts once I've requested an
Uber/Lyft. Too often I've had riders call me to ask where I'm going, and then
ask _me_ to cancel. I have had awkward phone calls where they ask me to
cancel, but I politely decline and ask them to do it if they'd like.

------
montecore
The writer is complaining about a worker trying to make a fair wage while
promoting predatory lending with credit cards offers.

Nah.

------
jstelly
I'm surprised that this discussion of tipping doesn't include the fact that it
implements price discrimination. It's possible that the reason tipping is so
often the end point of systems is that price discrimination is much more
profitable than having a fixed price for everyone. So trying to design a
pricing system that replaces a tipping-based service needs to deal with this
problem. How is your service going to implement price discrimination without
tipping? Otherwise how is it going to be as profitable as a system that has
price discrimination?

I'm not saying I prefer these systems as a consumer; I would much rather pay a
fixed price. I'm saying that it seems like they create the most profit and
thus competitive edge for the businesses using them.

------
habosa
Uber should add tipping to the app, period. The way that Lyft does it is nice
because you can't be pressured into a tip - the ride must be completed before
the tipping screen is shown which means you're already out of the car. Even
more importantly the driver has already rated you before you make this
decision. I've tipped many Lyft drivers and never had a single one ask me for
a tip or a good rating. I've had many Uber drivers ask (or put up a sign),
because they know the app won't ask for them.

I know what the responses will be already. "The lack of tipping is one of the
main reasons I use Uber! Tipping is awkward! They should pay their drivers
more it's not my job". So then don't tip. That's really all there is to it.

------
imh
Lots of discussion about whether tips are good or bad. Friendly reminder that
people don't tend to tip all races equally [0]. This means that having driver
compensation partially in the form of tips will mean black drivers get paid
less. Some interesting implications here [1]

[0]
[http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...](http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=articles)

[1] [https://onlabor.org/2015/11/23/guest-post-tipping-as-
employm...](https://onlabor.org/2015/11/23/guest-post-tipping-as-employment-
discrimination/)

------
nlawalker
Well if someone chooses to share their car, you should just be happy that
things worked out such that it was convenient for them to pick you up. And
certainly you can share an extra couple bucks with them.

We're all just _sharing_ , right?

~~~
stoptypingnow
The issue with Uber is tipping can affect ratings and Uber plays like tipping
isn't part of the mechanics. They've pushed driver payout so low it's now
important for drivers to figure out how to get extra money from their fares.
Lyft has pricing parity with Uber so the same issue exists but they help the
situation by allowing tips to be collected in app but not expose the tip
during the ratings process. It's a more honest and mature mechanic and why
I've switched over to Lyft completely.

------
patcon
I feel like the inconvenience of getting hustled is just a minimal tax on
using an questionably moral, very low-cost, low-job-security service. You get
it cheap, but you've got to interact with desperate people, and deal with how
that makes you feel uncomfortable...

If you don't want to get hassled, better pay is the byline, not a tacked-on
after-thought.

(Disclaimer: I found the tone of this post pretty insufferable.)

------
metaxy2
There seem to be really extreme regional differences with this. Wherever I am,
when I take an Uber I usually tip a small amount ($1-$2) and as small talk I
ask the driver what ratio of people leave a tip. Here in Western Mass I've
gotten answers in the 30-50% area, if I'm right. New Hampshire seems to be
similar. But in New York, they tell me it's maybe 1 out of 10.

------
bobbles
Make sure you give a low rating and explain exactly why you did to the uber
customer support, have always had refunds when dealing with this

------
cheepoMcRico
Why should I tip you? Just because you got me home safely in a clean car for
$5? I only tip everyone else. Not you stupid driver.

------
Cofike
I usually use Lyft and so the option to tip is there so this doesn't seem to
be affecting that service yet. I honestly haven't used Uber in a while since
the app never seems to work but if I got propositioned for tips with Lyft/Uber
I'd definitely be hesitant to keep using that service going forward.

I really, really hope they nip this in the bud.

------
gamache
Lyft offers in-app tipping, well after getting out of the car. Convenience is
what people want, and Lyft makes it convenient to tip the driver whereas Uber
makes it convenient to not tip the driver.

I'm amazed so many people still use Uber, not even because of the rotten
company culture and business practices, but because of the user experience.

~~~
spacehunt
Lyft is not available where I live, Uber is.

------
giarc
I feel like Uber could get innovative here.

Add 10 cents to every ride and divide that money amongst the drivers in the
city each day based upon 1) number of rides 2) rating 3) number of canceled
trips 4) distance. It will incentivize the drivers to get good ratings (more
so than now) and encourage less canceled trips and more fares.

------
amyjess
The author is more tolerant than I am. In the case of both Ride 1 and Ride 2,
I would have immediately cancelled on the driver as soon as he pulled those
stunts.

I actually did once get a text from a guy demanding to know my destination. I
told him I already entered it into the system, and he immediately cancelled on
me.

------
dexterdog
Why do they even have a rating system if they have a tipping system? Ratings
for drivers should be based on how they are tipped compared to the average in
the area. Ratings on riders should be based on how well they tip compared to
the average in the area.

------
laughfactory
Yeah, I've never tipped an Uber driver. Not because they haven't been
excellent, but because I don't carry cash, and it's supposed to be
frictionless. I.e., easy. If this happened to me I'd never ride another one.

------
golergka
Wait - isn't tipping included in Uber app? I almost never use it myself. Gett,
on the other hand, has automatic tip setting (like 5, 10, and 15%) that you
can set once for all your rides.

I thought the whole point of Uber is to make the transaction cashless?

------
ZeroGravitas
Interesting comment:

 _" Drivers sued because Uber was treating us like employees. Uber used to
deactivate drivers who mentioned tips. The judge said Uber Drivers are
independent contractors and have the right to request tips."_

------
tghw
Whether they mean to or not, Uber has been making the drivers less and less
human. Now it's backfiring.

Lyft includes tipping in the UI, after the ride. As a result, their drivers
don't have as much of a reason to hustle for tips.

------
briandear
If you don't make enough driving Uber. Don't drive for Uber. The market
corrects low pay; basic supply and demand.

Would you pay $10 for an oranage if you're buying it right from the farm? Of
course not. The supply is such and the demand is such that $10 isn't the
price.

Would you pay $10 for an orange in you're at Everest Base Camp? Probably
because there aren't many orange trees up there.

The whole "living wage" argument doesn't hold much water with me. If Uber
drivers were scarce, then Uber would raise prices (such as surge pricing.) If
you aren't making enough driving Uber, then take your car, start your own car
service, start marketing and compete.

Not that it's relevant but I don't particularly like Uber however I do like
the free market. In this case it isn't like Uber is a monopoly.

------
bendykstra
Wow, norms change quickly. I traveled with my golden retriever several times
last spring (always asking first by phone) and the drivers were all genuinely
surprised when I offered a tip at the end of the ride.

------
jjuhl
There's no legal requirement to tip anywhere and it's money out my pocket and
into a strangers (whom I'll likely never even see again). I never tip - for
anything - no one should.

------
lnanek2
> A fair solution would be for Uber to install an in-app option to add a tip.

One driver I spoke to said they used to have that, but Uber just kept the tips
and didn't pay them to the driver...

------
omarforgotpwd
Uber grew a lot by aggressively cutting prices to boost demand, but at some
point if you push drivers too hard it's going to backfire and ruin the
customer experience.

------
gshakir
I really like the Starbucks model, where you add the tip after the fact. If
the drivers doesn't know who tipped them, then they would be nice to everyone.

------
dollaholla
I'm in NYC with 50+ Uber rides under my belt. Never been asked for a tip. One
time I tried to tip the driver and he refused to take it.

------
juskrey
Every single internet sales article advises harassing people for profit, yet
everyone freak out when the real world tries to sell something to them.

------
homakov
When I hear the word "tips" after massage in Asia I never come back, even if I
liked the massage.

This is very rude to ask for them, so I act proactively.

------
blhack
I really wish uber would just charge more. Part of why I fell in love with the
service was because it sounded like the drivers were really happy.

------
meesterdude
The most ethical thing you can do is delete uber

------
andreasklinger
The moment they add tipping the driver salary will go down even more.

I hate this american business method of shifting blame to the customer.

------
NetStrikeForce
TIL you have to tip Uber drivers. Oh well. Luckily I only used it like 3 times
and not planning to use it anymore.

------
huffmsa
Do you tip your airline pilot? >No Bus driver? >No Subway conductor? >No

Well, guess what that means.

------
cheepoMcRico
I just paid your employer $5 to take my tipsy ass home at 3am, safely in a
clean car. Why would I have to give you $3 tip? Fvck off, only my waiter or
bartender get tips from me.

------
gdulli
Grateful that I live and work on public transportation that's both cheaper and
less unpleasant than what the author described.

------
yunolisten
seems like a terrible company to support:

[https://www.jwz.org/blog/2017/03/a-round-up-on-why-uber-
is-a...](https://www.jwz.org/blog/2017/03/a-round-up-on-why-uber-is-awful/)

------
bjshepard
Uber isn't going to exist

~~~
k_sh
Don't burn yourself on that hot take.

------
deeth_starr
Welcome to America. People who complain about tipping annoy me. I agree it's a
pain to have to tip but companies in America like to not pay their employees.

Instead of giving the tipping option Uber should just automatically add 15%.
But knowing Uber they would just keepo this 15% and not pass it on to the
driver.

