
Ask HN: Do computers and tablets really improve education at elementary level? - tomek_zemla
Some recent personal observations and tutoring led me to believe that schools introduced mandatory laptops and tablets simply to appear modern.<p>What I see is pre&#x2F;teens spending most of their days (evenings and weekends) on social media using devices mandated by schools and purchased at great cost by parents. I see close to none usage of the same devices for improved learning&#x2F;teaching.<p>Kids don&#x27;t hang out on Wikipedia. They follow pop stars on Instagram. All day (and night if not restricted) using electronics that supposedly improves education.<p>Majority of &#x27;educational&#x27; usage is along the lines of looking up class schedule online and doing homework on ebooks which could very well be paper based. For example what are the benefits of using drawing program vs paper, pencil, ruler for basic geometry? Is it worth spending money on iPad Air to facilitate this? Wouldn&#x27;t be better to use these funds for better teacher pay and teacher&#x2F;student ratios?<p>Are there any studies supporting or disproving my observations? What are your personal observations?
======
JoshTriplett
A tablet (iPad or otherwise) much less so; tablets are very much "consumption"
devices, which can consume packaged educational content and videos, but don't
help with collaboration.

However, a two-way interactive device like a laptop or Chromebook? Typing
homework instead of writing it? Having collaborative tools available to work
with others, both in and out of school? Playing with preliminary programming
environments? Trying experiments and visualizations? Yes, that can absolutely
help.

Just handing a device to every student will _not_ automatically improve
education, though; they're not magic. There need to be lesson plans, adapted
materials, tools (e.g. for teachers to collaborate with students and students
to collaborate with each other), and not just the same lessons ported to turn
in homework on a computer. That takes time and effort, but the result will be
students much more adapted to a highly tech-integrated society.

(Disclaimer: the above derives from professional experience and observations,
but is not a comment made with my professional hat on; not speaking for anyone
else here.)

As for the comments on social media: yes, and that's something many of them
will do as adults too. Many people are highly social, and hang out with each
other online. Some of what they do will be educational and productive, but
having a computer doesn't mean it has to be used entirely for education and
productivity. Even just posting online provides practice writing and typing,
both of which benefit from practice. Some of their time might be spent on
random Internet forum sites arguing with each other, which of course will
never be a skill they'll make use of as well-adjusted adults like us. But
it'll keep kids inside and thus off your lawn.

~~~
sp332
How is a Chromebook less of a consumption device than an iPad?

~~~
SimbaOnSteroids
Chromebook allows you to type papers etc.

~~~
sp332
But Apple Pages is free for iPad, and so are Google Docs and Microsoft Word.
And of course you can run all the same webapps as on the Chromebook.

~~~
JoshTriplett
You could supply hardware keyboard-cases that prop up the tablet at a usable
angle. But otherwise, typing long documents on a tablet is a miserable
experience.

~~~
sp332
This is more flexible. The iPad can gain a keyboard when you need one, but
Chromebooks can't lose their keyboards when they get in the way.

~~~
nickster
They have convertible chromebooks.

~~~
btschaegg
This. As the owner of a full-body aluminium convertible chromebook, I'd
concur: The point about "losing the keyboard" doesn't apply per se, if you're
talking about the right Chromebook model. The Asus C100P for example makes a
good tablet and its laptop-experience has never been matched with any iPad-
keyboard I've seen so far.

On the other hand, a Chromebook's problem (for now) regarding the "tablet
mode" lies in the ChromeOS GUI: It wasn't designed with touch screens in mind
(especially the browser itself) and feels clunkier than other tablet controls.
Google are on their way to remedy that through their integration of Android
apps though. They're certainly not there yet, but I can imagine that changing
in the forseeable future.

------
bcoates
Here's a vested interest trying to cherry-pick studies to make tablets in the
classroom seem useful, and it's pretty thin gruel:

[http://www.securedgenetworks.com/blog/8-Studies-Show-
iPads-i...](http://www.securedgenetworks.com/blog/8-Studies-Show-iPads-in-the-
Classroom-Improve-Education)

1\. A study showing that giving kindergartners short-term exposure to tablet
learning programs caused a short-term increase in literacy scores (probably
just novelty effect)

2\. A non-study anecdote from a med school

3\. A survey showing kids prefer being given iPads to not being given iPads

4\. The same kindergarten study again

5\. A probably real study showing that math apps improve algebra test scores
(probably through increased practice)

6\. Another survey showing kids still want toys

7\. Anecdote that tablets can improve accessibility for disabled students

8\. Another legit-looking math study with a positive result

9\. Another give-us-toys survey

Assuming these guys have done a good job searching for evidence of value, the
only decent result for mainstream K-12 education is that it maybe makes math
practice more palatable which would definitely improve math scores.

~~~
krsmith35
"maybe makes math practice more palatable which would definitely improve math
scores" \- I have this thought experiment where you drop off ipads in inner
city Detroit. They are loaded with games, but the only way to unlock the games
is to solve a certain number of math problems each day. My theory is that test
scores far surpass the public schools.

------
payne92
I think it depends entirely how they are used.

CAD (Onshape), programming, digital arts/photography, making video,
collaborating on writing and presentations for group projects, collaborating
with your classmates, doing research -- all great uses.

In other words: classroom tech is probably best (IMHO) when used in nearly the
same way you would use it in a job or a non-school project.

Replacing existing educational systems and tools (conventional textbooks,
testing, etc.) ... probably less useful.

~~~
btschaegg
I'd both agree and disagree with that. I can imagine such technology being
very useful for teaching if it is applied well, and - as you note - replacing
current ways of teaching completely certainly won't help.

I'm not sure about the "using it as if for a Job" part though. It wouldn't
surprise me if there were some good teaching techniques using such hardware in
new ways - it's just that they haven't been tried yet.

If one could let kids explore some topic on their own (given certain
boundaries) in fun ways, I could imagine that alone could have positive
effects. Perhaps you meant that with your remark too (I'm not sure if I
misread you there)?

Edit: I could, for example, also imagine a scenario where a traditional "text
book scenario" is accompanied by some "sandbox" examples where kids could try
different parameters in the style of Bret Victor's "Inventing on Principle"
talk. I've generally thought that his demos, while being truly great, wouldn't
help too much when it comes to actual work. For showcasing something and
educating someone in a more explorational way, they seem to have a huge
potential, though.

------
markdeloura
As an engineer who has pivoted toward education (I worked in the Obama
administration on CS Ed and games for learning) I want to say "of course
technology helps!" but what the drumbeat of research shows us is that it is no
silver bullet -- what's important is the WAY technology is used. Think of the
technology as a tool. If the educator knows how to utilize the tool to enhance
learning, then it will help!

Blended learning and personalized learning are two methodologies in which
technology is actively valuable. You can learn more about those on sites like
Edutopia and EdWeek. Here's a great summary article from EdWeek looking at
concepts for technology in education:
[http://www.edweek.org/ew/issues/technology-in-
education/](http://www.edweek.org/ew/issues/technology-in-education/)

I'm a big fan of using digital games as an engagement modality and curriculum
augmentation. GlassLab and SRI did some work together a few years ago and
their meta-analysis indicated that adding a digital game to a traditional
curriculum could on average increase cognitive learning outcomes by 12%. Of
course it varies wildly depending on the game and circumstance.
[https://www.sri.com/sites/default/files/brochures/digital-
ga...](https://www.sri.com/sites/default/files/brochures/digital-games-for-
learning-brief.pdf)

------
jacobwilliamroy
Personal observations:

Tablets/e-readers are great for schools. There are plenty of DRM-free e-books.
Instead of buying crates of books, you can just buy some files and them copy
them to all the e-readers on the school network.

I've never been able to manage physical flash-card decks, but once I got a
smartphone I started using spaced repetition system (SRS) flash-card apps,
which can organize (probably) millions of flash-cards and show them to you in
the most optimal way for exploiting the long-term memory. I've learned over
3,000 Arabic, Japanese, and Korean words combined, thanks to SRS flash-card
apps.

And in this day-and age where pretty much everyone is a network/system
administrator (they just don't know it) it's important for kids to learn how
to really use a real computer. The most useful thing I learned in my digital
media class was how to organize files. I've never met an employer or coworker
who could maintain a neat filesystem, even though an untamed Downloads
directory would often be the source of their computer troubles.

There is a huge opportunity for these technologies to make schools better. But
at the same time, that opportunity has been here for over a decade now.

One more observation: american public schools have horrible taste in software.

~~~
rb808
Do you know where to get DRM-free ebooks for elementary school children?
Project Gutenberg is great for olde authors, not so much for fun simple stuff
for kids.

~~~
jacobwilliamroy
There wasn't any copy protection in the e-books I bought from amazon. However,
I haven't bought an e-book from amazon in 6 years. So that may no longer be
the case, if more publishers have started using DRM.

~~~
applecrazy
Yes, Amazon now adds DRM to all their ebooks and often you don't even get the
actual book file but just access to a cloud version.

------
gfredtech
No. It's meant to augment learning, but it's doing the exact opposite.
Laptops/Tablets are redundant objects in the classroom, because instead of
providing support to what's already good in the classroom, they're designed to
replace them. Personally I'd choose paperback over ebook every single time.

------
jaclaz
Before anything else, try asking yourself a slightly different question:

If you were given when you were a kid a laptop or tablet (and if internet
existed at the time) would you have used it to study or to look around for
(choose whatever fits better) music, movies, lolcats, funny videos, maybe some
p0rn and the like?

~~~
tomek_zemla
OP here... Exactly. My concern is that 11, 12, 13 year olds need a lot of
editorial guidance, mentoring and teachers who are truly fluent with
technology to do more useful activities and less useless or downright harmful
on their devices.

18 year old can (usually) figure out how to use Internet and technology in
general to improve themselves and advance their education. Small kids not so
much...

~~~
jaclaz
Right.

The (wrong) idea is that the tool (tablet/laptop) by sheer magic can replace
guidance, if you prefer it is a form of lazyness by the teachers and/or the
parents that assume that the kids will not do what they are better at (which
is of course playing) 80-90% of the time (and use it for school work for the
bare minimum 10-20% actually needed to get a decent vote).

Under some guidance I find the tablet or laptop an exceptionally good tool,
but it is just a tool, so in itself its usage without appropriate programs and
mentoring it can become worse than useless, an additional means of
distraction.

------
krsmith35
Great question, great comments. Consensus seems to be that computers are tools
and can be helpful if the learning model is right. Specifically, computers can
allow for mastery (see Sal Khan on TED) and personalization (see Silicon
Valley schools). I think the follow up question is: will the current system
evolve to a 21st-century model, where computers can be effectively utilized?

(My answer is no, here's my proposal for a better model:
[https://medium.com/@prendalearn/nanoschool-a-new-take-on-
edu...](https://medium.com/@prendalearn/nanoschool-a-new-take-on-
education-8610a46cb0ac))

~~~
bluGill
Interesting idea. However your model - like all interest based learning models
- fails because learning is hard. How will you force kids to memorize their
multiplication tables, their spelling lists... These are things that are hard
to do and interesting. (note once you get good things like spelling bees are
fun, but until you are good it is not fun so few kids will cross that gap)

~~~
krsmith35
I agree, what if people decide not to learn. My two answers are 1) they
wouldn't learn in a compulsory model anyway, not really
([https://medium.com/@prendalearn/teaching-is-impossible-
what-...](https://medium.com/@prendalearn/teaching-is-impossible-what-to-do-
instead-31b30924511d\);) and 2) gamification can go a long way.

Actually testing this next week with a summer camp where we bought a bunch of
cool, fun toys and the kids can play all day once they get their work done (x%
mastered on Khan Academy, y pages read, z words written). I'm making all this
up - no academic background.

------
Xixi
It depends a lot on what you are learning. I think playing DreamBox
significantly helped my daughter (1st grade) learn how to count. Simply
because she likes playing with it so she got a lot of practice for no effort.
The key is there: no effort, or an effort that is lower than the reward. But I
don't think there are many things where this applies.

Reflecting on my personal experience: in junior high school and above I played
a lot of video games available only in English, that truly helped with my
learning of the language. And now that I'm studying kanji: spaced repetition
on the iPhone...

------
tahw
I'm sure it doesn't improve their education but I bet it helps soothe the ones
who are bored out of their fucking minds. I had a ti-83 to occupy myself when
I was a kid but a tablet would have been amazing!

~~~
crispytx
The TI-83 had some pretty kickass games. I remember playing "Drugwars" on mine
in High School.

------
zocoi
Not a clear yes.

    
    
      less than 60% of teachers think that pupils' academic 
      performance also improves, or in other words, the impact on their marks is seen to be lower than 
      on their learning
    

[https://phys.org/news/2013-06-digital-tablets-
classroom.html](https://phys.org/news/2013-06-digital-tablets-classroom.html)
and
[http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED541157.pdf](http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED541157.pdf)

------
barry-cotter
No.

Readable academic blog post

[https://fredrikdeboer.com/2017/04/12/study-of-the-week-
compu...](https://fredrikdeboer.com/2017/04/12/study-of-the-week-computers-in-
the-home/)

[http://www.nber.org/papers/w19060](http://www.nber.org/papers/w19060)

Experimental Evidence on the Effects of Home Computers on Academic Achievement
among Schoolchildren Robert W. Fairlie, Jonathan Robinson

Computers are an important part of modern education, yet many schoolchildren
lack access to a computer at home. We test whether this impedes educational
achievement by conducting the largest-ever field experiment that randomly
provides free home computers to students. Although computer ownership and use
increased substantially, we find no effects on any educational outcomes,
including grades, test scores, credits earned, attendance and disciplinary
actions. Our estimates are precise enough to rule out even modestly-sized
positive or negative impacts. The estimated null effect is consistent with
survey evidence showing no change in homework time or other "intermediate"
inputs in education.

------
Jemmeh
Depends on how it's used. You can use any tool poorly. Even large businesses
do not always use their computers in the best way.

1.) I grew up in a poor area. For high school they introduced an alternative
school where you could come in whenever-- basically just rooms full of
computers, you would take the whole lesson on the computer. They were able to
use only a few teachers for a lot of students this way. While the courses
themselves could use a little more work, overall it allowed people to finish
high school that otherwise wouldn't have. I think the "let the computer do a
lot of the teaching" method is a great one. Lets people work at their own pace
and takes some pressure off the teachers.

2.) In an ideal world I would think you could buy a laptop and then save money
on books, but at least here in the USA I don't usually see it done that way.

3.) Even if they're doing totally irrelevant stuff, knowing how to use a
computer to search for answers and filter out bad information is a great skill
to have. So while yes, they need to do their homework, I don't think it's
awful if they also use it for playing on.

~~~
bluGill
> In an ideal world I would think you could buy a laptop and then save money
> on books,

School books are normally overpriced, but they are expected to last 5 years. A
laptop will not survive 5 years in the hands of a kid, and even if it does it
is so obsolete that you wouldn't want to use it.

~~~
Jemmeh
In my area, and I think it's like this in much of the USA, they come out with
a new "edition" of books every year and require you to get the latest for
class in college. Even in high school I remember they kept having to buy new
books quite a lot. Also keep in mind 1 laptop = all your books for all your
classes + the whole internet. In my high school we took 7 classes per day per
semester, so that's 7 books = 1 laptop.

Every school I've went to growing up had cheap usually out of date desktop
computers bought in bulk. They were old and ugly. But they were fine, most of
the time it was just used for reading or word processing. Sometimes google or
an e-course. You don't need a lot of power for that. They kept those computers
for ages, I am pretty sure way past 5 years.

When my younger brother went through high school they gave everyone cheap
laptops and if you broke it you paid for it, that seemed to work fine. Lots of
really young kids are getting cell phones these days and managing to take care
of them. I think that's probably helping teach them to be careful with
electronics.

------
abecedarius
You mention geometry. There are some excellent apps like
[https://www.euclidea.xyz/](https://www.euclidea.xyz/) for that, much better
than pencil and paper. (I don't know about any outcomes with kids, just my own
experience. But if I had kids I would totally want to see what they made of
it.)

But in general, when I got an iPad Pro this year and looked for science/math
toys to run on it, I was disappointed. There are a lot more didactic
educational apps than more imaginative uses of the new medium. Some worth
mentioning:

* Earth: a primer * Several apps and games to learn basic programming Scratch-style * Khan Academy * Desmos * Some interactive books from e.g. the Exploratorium * XSection from the same company as Euclidea * A digital-logic game whose name I forget * Kaleidopaint * EveryCircuit * An audio spectrum viewer

I'd like to hear of more to try.

------
ohmygeek
This has become a huge fad in countries like India of late (seen this first
hand). Rather than aiding the learning experience, these are used by
institutions to brand themselves as "smart schools" and in turn charge higher
fees for providing so called "smart e-education".

Then there are xyz companies capitalizing on this by building custom
tablets/ipads with their own educational content ripping off both schools and
the parents by selling "premium" content that helps students have an "edge"
among their peers.

But then, for most parents this is also a matter of pride - "my kids attend a
smart school! What about your kids?" which is fueling this pathetic trend.

Almost all of my cousins are enrolled in these smart schools and they don't
care much since they now have device to play games on in lieu of learning
something meaningful.

I feel sad to see these in a country where there aren't proper schools in
thousands of villages.

EDIT: fixed typos

------
justinreeve
I actually wrote a post about the benefits of ed tech in education for grad
school several years ago, which addresses this issue:
[http://blog.wsd.net/jreeve/the-case-for-ed-
tech/](http://blog.wsd.net/jreeve/the-case-for-ed-tech/)

The TL;DR is: Yes, they undeniably improve academic performance, and studies
have shown this repeatedly. However, keep in mind the studies demonstrating
this are done with teachers who actually knew how to use the technology, were
trained to do so, and had specific instructional goals in mind for using the
tech to benefit their students. If schools/districts just throw this
technology at teachers without proper training and academic objectives, it
will do nothing. Computers and tablets are useful in the hands of a good
teacher, but they are tools. They cannot turn bad instructional practices into
good instructional practices.

------
WalterBright
A bicycle for the mind doesn't make the mind stronger. To learn requires
focused effort, and having the computer do the work for you means the effort
doesn't happen.

If there was solid evidence it worked, you'd see that evidence cited
everywhere.

There is evidence, however, that it helps kids with learning disabilities.

------
gaius
No, and it has been known for 20 years that they don't
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silicon-Snake-Oil-Cliff-
Stoll/dp/03...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silicon-Snake-Oil-Cliff-
Stoll/dp/0333647874/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495825412&sr=8-1)

~~~
BinaryIdiot
This is spam. If you have an argument for or against and want to provide data
you link to said data. This is a link to a hardback book for purchase.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong I just find this the opposite of
effective for conveying your point.

~~~
gaius
For purchase for 1p, and containing all the research. What exact point are you
trying to make?

~~~
BinaryIdiot
My point was very clear. I suggest reading my original comment again.

~~~
gaius
Perhaps you don't know what the word "spam" means? Perhaps you are a "troll"?

------
jseliger
I haven't seen good evidence for most computers and related devices improving
learning and that's part of the reason I ban them:
[https://jakeseliger.com/2008/12/28/laptops-students-
distract...](https://jakeseliger.com/2008/12/28/laptops-students-distraction-
hardly-a-surprise/) .

I have seen good evidence that computers do the opposite, in the form of
Toyama's book _Geek Heresy_ : [https://jakeseliger.com/2015/11/17/geek-heresy-
rescuing-soci...](https://jakeseliger.com/2015/11/17/geek-heresy-rescuing-
social-change-from-the-cult-of-technology-kentaro-toyama/) .

------
teilo
A lot of the move to requiring laptops, particularly district-supplied
Chromebooks, is not driven by an effort to improve education per-se, but to
improve the education workflow for teachers, and to go paperless.

Students are given a Chromebook and a G Suite for Education account, and all
papers/homework is required to be submitted in Google Doc format. The accounts
and the Chromebooks are, of course, centrally managed.

Because all students receive these devices (and in our case have to pay a
$20/yr. insurance fee to cover any potential damage) any objection from poor
or under-priviledged families is eliminated.

It is _sold to parents_ as a way to improve education? Of course. But in
reality it's not for the benefit of the students. It's for the teachers.

------
mwerd
It likely makes the scores​ higher on tests, though not necessarily because
they've learned the material better.

Anecdotally, I've seen recent immigrant children struggling to understand user
interfaces (that I would argue were poorly designed, not that it matters to
anyone caught in the bureaucracy) that more computer literate kids "get"
immediately. The struggles with UI, such as kids literally spending dozens of
minutes trying to get to the next question, undoubtedly exhaust and frustrate
them. One can only guesstimate the effect on test scores but it can't be
positive.

More exposure to a variety​ of software/UIs seems to matter.

------
rb808
3rd graders in my state take the PARCC exam which is done on a laptop or
chromebook. So there is a push to make sure children at elementary school are
familiar with such computers including typing practice. This makes sense.

At home I think Khan Academy is a great learning resource. Also even Youtube
can be handy for doing research for young kids on history/animals/facts where
reference books can be a little boring.

Aside from that I think its largely for show. No one wants to be left behind
or seen to be.

------
bluGill
Computers are a tool. Because they are the new things it is hard to see that
they are just tools, so I like to start with this related question: do hammers
improve education? Lets look at that question first.

I have never seen a math teacher who I would trust with a hammer. English
(language) classes might have a paper mache hammer - one student made as a
prop for a play and it has been hanging on the wall since. Physics teachers
need a cartoon oversized sized rubber hammer. Shop class will have 60
different hammers, for some types there will be one for each student. Art
class will have a couple, and once in a while borrow a bunch from the shop
class...

Now that our mindset is correct we can re-ask the question: are computers
useful? The answer is what are you going to do with them.

Part of modern English (language) class is typing. Starting perhaps 3rd grade
there should be regular streams of reports handed in electronically. As
students get older much of the literature they need to read is available free
on a computer and hard to find in paper form. Other than a caution about
handwriting and spelling still being useful skills I expect to see a lot of
computers in language classrooms. As the kids get older things like web pages
will be added to English class. (web pages have more in common with journalism
than computer science!)

When the kids get older I expect art to be done on a computer, but for
elementary aged kids art with messy paints is better than the computer. (some
professional artists find painting on a computer is better than real paint: it
works the same way until you want to hit undo or need the paint to dry at a
different speed - but that is for older kids)

Math is about reasoning through a problem. Computers running flashcards can be
useful at times (single digit addition, subtraction, multiplication should be
memorized), but ultimately computers are easily harmful to the goal of
teaching reasoning. In fact real math problems the arithmetic is easy enough
that not being able to do it is a sign you made a mistake.

Science is like math, except the real world is messy and so an equation solver
is helpful. Most of the learning is actually before the point or writing up
your report though, and not using a computer is an advantage as it forces you
to think about how you will measure something.

Shop class (though this barely exists anymore - I think this is a great loss)
should cover CNC and 3d printing.

------
nradam123
I do think its mostly just business. Both schools and device manufacturers can
make a lot of money by making such tools mandatory. But there is no doubt that
tablets and laptop application can help improve learning in students, but if
used effectively

------
phren0logy
It's a tool. It depends on what you do with it.

------
akhilcacharya
>Kids don't hang out on Wikipedia

Hey! I did that..

~~~
tomek_zemla
OK, but starting at what age?

~~~
akhilcacharya
~9. Would not have gained an interest in CS or politics otherwise.

------
bwackwat
N O

