
The 40% Keyboard - oftenwrong
http://tbf-rnd.life/blog/2019/09/18/the-40-keyboard/
======
dangus
Call me cynical, but I think a lot of the small style keyboards I see around
the office are more of a fashion trend than anything.

I remember when the insistence was on number pads, and how dare they be
removed from our laptops and desktop keyboards.

Fast forward a few years and I was made fun of at a programming job for
preferring a full keyboard with a number pads. I guess programmers are too
cool to enter in dollar amounts into Excel.

Now the trend is for brightly multi-colored keys, which are often unlabeled
[1], and basically an otherwise standard rectangular keyboard which has no
obvious ergonomic benefit over a full 100+ key keyboard.

[1] This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at
your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don’t need to look at
your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend.

~~~
terandle
No numpad is an ergonomic benefit. Your mouse is closer so you don't have to
move your hand as far.

The best way to have a numpad if you really need one, I have found, is to have
a separate one like how the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard does it.

~~~
binarycrusader
_Your mouse is closer so you don 't have to move your hand as far._

Not if you use a mouse left-handed ;)

But more seriously, I grew up being trained to touch type in the classical way
complete with ten-key exercises. I strongly prefer having a full numpad and I
actually prefer the extra distance to the right for mouse usage. I've found
over the years that the more I move my hands, the less likely I am to have
discomfort.

~~~
me_me_me
God damn you cheating lefties! You cant have cake and eat it too! </joke>

I really wish for keyboard options with numpad on the left.

I am using numpad rarely but its handy to have when in need.

~~~
isp
This exists.

I have used this keyboard for the past few years, and swear by it:
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000V5GQ8O](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000V5GQ8O)

Full num pad, but on the left.

For right-handed people like me, this makes the mouse position more natural,
while still letting me use the num pad when needed.

~~~
WorldMaker
Another option (the one I have at home) is Microsoft's current highest end
gaming keyboard the Sidewinder X6 has a detachable numpad that you can move to
either the left or right as you see fit (including on-the-fly; the connector
is magnetically guided and swapping can be crazy quick).

[https://smile.amazon.com/Microsoft-Sidewinder-Gaming-
Keyboar...](https://smile.amazon.com/Microsoft-Sidewinder-Gaming-Keyboard-
Port/dp/B001DWI4FM)

------
mewse
I'm mostly typing on Corne keyboards now; a split kit keyboard with 42 keys,
so still considered 40%, but fewer keys than most other 40% boards. (so you
have to learn to cope with not having dedicated arrow keys, for example)

I can't imagine ever going back to a non-split keyboard; for me, it's a much
better typing position to have my hands shoulder-width apart rather than
squeezed together. I think that's more important than the "every key is within
reach of the home row" argument for the 40% size in particular (although I've
kind of fallen in love with the 40% size, but I could cope with going to a
larger keyboard again better than I'd cope with going to a non-split, I think)

But more than that, as a programmer, there's something meditative about
maintaining the custom hardware I use to do my job. Double-checking the
soldering, tuning the firmware, taking it apart to polish the components and
then putting it back together again, etc. Reminds me of the Zen of Motorcycle
Maintenance, in a lot of ways.

~~~
angrygoat
I'd really like a keyboard with e-ink keycaps, so that they update as I flip
between mappings. It'd be particularly useful when swapping between languages
/ character sets (e.g. Hebrew, Greek, ...)

~~~
the_gipsy
the corne has a neat oled display, you can display layers and modifiers there

------
xouse
I know a lot of people who think they can touch type the number row, but I've
yet to meet anyone who can actually do it at anything resembling their normal
typing speed and without errors. If people could there would be no reason for
the numberpad to exist. I'm a very fast typist and I've always struggled with
touch typing the number row.

Thirty minutes into using a split 40% keyboard and I was using the number row
at full speed, something that has eluded me my whole life. And of course, it's
a hell of a lot easier to hold down a key with my thumb and touch type the
qwerty row than to make the normal awkward stretch that fullsize keyboards
use.

That told me pretty much everything I needed to know. Once I learn a layout I
can type any key that's on the home row or the rows that are directly above or
below it and a thumb modifier faster than I can type any keys outside of the
three home rows sans a modifier.

The idea that many people have that somehow 40% keyboards are about having
less keys at your immediate disposal is completely backwards. There are 36
keys that are within a 1 key displacement of the home row. With the natural 36
and two thumb modifiers on each side that's already 180 keys that are all
touch typeable, and that's without even getting into any of the fancy stuff
like being able to tap for one function and hold for another, or using two
modifiers at once, or using a vim style leader key, or chording, or having
modes that you can switch into.

The smaller keyboards aren't about having less keys, it's not like I woke up
one morning and decided to never use function keys or curly brackets again,
it's about removing all the cruft that that can't be pressed easily and
mapping it in a way that it can.

~~~
aeyes
I also haven't met anyone that touch-types 100% to the book. Everybody does
some movements which aren't considered correct. The problem is that at some
point you reach a level which you consider sufficient and you stop improving.
Unlearning bad habits is a huge effort.

I can touch-type the number row at full speed as I was drilled doing it. If it
wasn't for that I wouldn't be able to either because you rarely need it.

The advantage of a numpad is that it reduced hand movement.

~~~
magduf
>I also haven't met anyone that touch-types 100% to the book. Everybody does
some movements which aren't considered correct. The problem is that at some
point you reach a level which you consider sufficient

That's because touch-typing on QWERTY by using the home row is stupid and
counterproductive. The home keys are some of the least-used keys, and the
whole layout was designed to be as un-ergonomic as possible.

If you want to touch type "correctly", you need to switch to a better keyboard
layout like Dvorak or Workman.

------
pdpi
It really annoys me when people try to claim scientific evidence (Fitts’s law
in this case) for their unscientific choices.

There is no frequency-of-use analysis, nothing about the cognitive cost of
remembering a very very unique set of key bindings (the guy on my team with a
40% keyboard still struggles with some common keystrokes after several
months), just “fitts’s law and we move less”.

~~~
BigJ1211
It's hard to measure I suppose, I personally started using a Redox Wireless
(and now own several split, non-split mechanical keyboards of all variaties).
I went from being unable to comfortably type a 1/4 of a page to being able to
type an entire page at a time. (I'm a developer, so this is really important
to me. I was starting to have RSI/CTS complaints at the start of the year)

Here's a study I could find with a quick search:
[http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/conferences/hfes02/gttalkhfes0...](http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/conferences/hfes02/gttalkhfes02.pdf)

Essentially comfort isn't significantly higher than with a standard keyboard,
but there's less discomfort.

~~~
pdpi
I'm not in any way, shape or form suggesting that you _don't_ benefit from
whatever keyboard you're using. I'm just saying that, if it's anecdotal
("works well for me"), say so — don't hide it behind a veneer of faux science.

------
dsego
Not sold on the RSI benefits. See, I bought a Planck, thinking that the
ortholinear layout would make sense. But it didn't work really. Maybe I'm just
accustomed to the staggered layout, but it just felt too cramped. Besides, I
don't think that less movement automatically leads to less strain. In fact it
felt like my fingers didn't get to stretch enough, and my wrists were too
close for comfort. All in all, the mouse still seems to be the biggest issue
for me, especially the micro movements, so I adjust the mouse to have more
travel. But in the end the most comfortable experience is a laptop with a
decent touchpad, no need to reach for the mouse and the wrists don't move much
or at all.

~~~
aeyes
Your observation of micro movements of the mouse causing issues is hitting the
nail on the head. This movement comes from the wrist and should be avoided.

All pro gamers use a somewhat low sensitivity which forces the movement to
come from the forearm instead of the wrist. Higher accuracy isn't the only
reason, you'll get chronic wrist pain within a couple of months if the mouse
movement comes from your wrist.

I'd recommend at least 20cm/360, better 25+. No accel.

~~~
YSFEJ4SWJUVU6
>Higher accuracy isn't the only reason, you'll get chronic wrist pain within a
couple of months if the mouse movement comes from your wrist.

Or you could just move the mouse with your fingers. Other positives include
requiring much less space and not looking silly flailing around. (My
preference is maybe 1–2 cm corner-to-corner, with no wrist related issues a
couple decades in; and obviously, mouse acceleration is a great idea.)

------
dlevine
I have an ortholinear 40% that sits in my closet collecting dust. I used it
for a little while, but just didn't like it that much. Despite the claims of
it being more ergonomic, I found that I was contorting my pinky into some
strange positions to hit some of the keys, and was getting some strain. Plus,
with 40 keys, you probably need 2 additional layers to get in all of the
functionality.

I also have an ErgoDox (68-key split ortholinear). I used it for a while but I
just never liked ortholinear.

I have used a 60% keyboard for most of the past 4 years that seems to me about
as functional as a full-sized keyboard. Basically all that I lose are the
arrow and function keys (and ESC), all of which can be easily emulated with a
second layer (I don't even think about it any more). I mapped caps lock to
ESC.

I know that some people need a numpad, but I don't, and I like the form factor
of a 60% (plus I built it up with switches and keycaps from an old Apple
Extended Keyboard, which were much better than the modern Apple stuff).

~~~
bitxbit
This is why 65% keyboards are becoming popular. You get the compactness of a
60% with the functionality of a TKL. HHKB format is also nice if you can get
used to it.

~~~
wyclif
Any examples of a 65% keyboard? I've never heard this terminology thrown
around till now.

~~~
dlevine
Yeah. The Whitefox or Drop's Alt Keyboard or the Tada68 or the Magicforce 68.

You can find most of them on Amazon.

------
TACIXAT
Getting a (read: multiple) 60% keyboard really changed my life. It makes a lot
more sense for not offsetting the mouse way to the right or the keyboard to
the left (as you would with a full size). As well, not having to strain my
wrist to hit arrow keys got rid of any pain I had. It's awesome having
everything under my hands. I'll definitely follow this 40% project.

~~~
woliveirajr
This. Ater having a "centered" keyboard without all those numerical keys, I
began to wonder how keyboards still have the same layout even if not everybody
uses those nubers on a daily basis.

~~~
toastal
Repeat this to all laptop manufacturers. I'd rather have better grill speakers
and a centered layout than a number pad and speakers under the keyboard.

------
KaiserPro
I really can't see how having to hold down two keys at the same time is going
to help RSI. (because to get to the special keys you have to hold down a
modifier key)

When you have your fingers contorted _and_ under stress trying to hold two
keys down, thats when RSI really kicks in.

I would go out on a limb and say that these keyboard are going to make one's
RSI even worse.

~~~
jdietrich
The modifiers are placed under the thumbs, so no contortion is necessary. Try
it yourself - with the possible exception of the B and Y keys, you can reach
all the alpha keys perfectly comfortably with your thumb simultaneously
pressing the space bar.

------
equalunique
I use many different computers every day, and for the past 3 years, I have
preferred 40% keyboards to get the job done.

Basically, the smaller the keyboard, the easier the layout is to remember.
When it fits completely under your hands, with no extra columns or rows
necessitating hand movement away from the home row, you can then commit the
layout to your body's muscle memory faster. It then becomes more efficient and
comfortable to use.

EDIT: On my current layout, I do something pretty unconventional, which is
saying a lot considering I'm using Dvorak. So I've mapped the B key on my Mods
layer to Backspace, D to Delete, T to Tab, and E for Enter (just to name a
handful). Now, I prefer this to having mods requiring a long pinky reach to
either side. It's also liberating using a layer for an extra level of
intention before hitting stuff like Delete, Backspace, and Enter. If you're
reading this, there's a good chance you've accidentally hit Enter one on a
message or button when you didn't mean to. Especially if you've dabbled with
HHKB layout. With this type of arrangement, worrying about that is a thing of
the past.

------
fouric
If you want even better ergonomics, add tenting, concavity, and move the
modifier keys + return/backspace to the thumb cluster (which should be shaped
and angled so you're not moving your thumb laterally to hit it). The Dactyl-
Manuform[1] is a good example of these things.

[1] [https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-
keyboard](https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard)

------
Nursie
Not for me, thanks.

I have a ... I don't know, it's like a 60% but with added arrows and
ins/del/home/end/pgup/pgdn off to the right like on a 80%, but it's not a 80%
or a standard 75% because there's no F key row.

I wouldn't want to go any smaller, I already have an extra 'super' key to
access F functions, and I already have minor issues just with the physical
size. Maybe I have big hands? Either way, I like the desk space back, but I
think there are limits here.

------
songzme
2 years ago I bought this vertex core 40% keyboard:
[https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...](https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3550)

Unfortunately, I type in dvorak layout and the keyboard I purchased did not
work out. I have to press 3 keys to type the letter 'z' because of the strange
meta layers.

I switched to dvorak because I had minor wrist pains and I hoped that
switching to dvorak would help. The pain went away (maybe a coincidence), but
dvorak was a pleasure to type so I stuck with it.

Everytime there is a new keyboard, I try it out and become disappointed
because it is heavily optimized for qwerty layouts.

~~~
ChymeraXYZ
One of the main draws for me to build a somewhat custom keyboard is that you
can program it yourself. That way you can modify the layout so it suits dvorak
layouts.

~~~
css
There is a drop-in PCB for the Vortex Core called the Atom47[0] that supports
QMK[1]:

[0]
[https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/ma...](https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/maartenwut/atom47)
[1] [https://qmk.fm/](https://qmk.fm/)

------
nabeelms
Personally, I prefer the Kinesis Advantage 2 for most of my typing work. It's
more pricy than many other keyboards but I've always found dev work pretty
easy with it.

~~~
walkingolof
Second that, its also wider than these tiny small keyboards, which is a plus
comfort-wise.

------
vollmond
I love my Keebio Iris; I've built three at this point, for my two work
machines and my home office. 60%, split, columnar, programmable with QMK.
Since they're completely split, with only a cable between them, I can place
them in whatever angle is perfectly comfortable for me, and I have room for my
track ball between them for super easy access [0]

The main power in these custom boards is in the firmware, allowing you
limitless customization. If you're the sort of person to place Escape or
Control on your CapsLock button via OS tools, this takes that to another
level. I never have to take my hands out of home position.

Some of my layout details [1]:

* When spacebar is held down, it activates a navigation layer instead of typing space. In this layer, I have HJKL arrow keys, along with page up/down, home/end, my numrow becomes function keys, and Tab/CapsLock cycle through browser tabs.

* The CapsLock button is Escape when tapped, Control when held down.

* The damn. key [0] is Control-Alt-Delete when tapped once, Control-Shift-Escape when tapped twice.

* The fn key, when held, turns the right half of the board into a traditional numpad descending from the 789 keys in the numrow.

* The raise key, when held, gives access to any special characters not already in the main layout (-_{}[]+=|\\)

I also have a separate BDN9 macropad [0] with rotary encoders for volume/zoom,
and keys mapped to the debugging navigation keys for software debugging. Also
has a screenshot macro (print screen, win+R, type "mspaint", enter, wait
750ms, control+P). It has a key that will open notepad on a single-tap (win+R,
type "notepad", enter) or type out a long email header I use frequently when
double-tapped.

There is certainly an aesthetic component (I love the look and feel of my
boards and my keycaps), and the build was a big draw (soldering everything
together, programming the layout), but the benefit of having a totally custom
setup for my specific needs is fantastic.

[0] My primary work setup:
[https://imgur.com/a/uvuDeE3](https://imgur.com/a/uvuDeE3)

[1] My QMK layout file:
[https://github.com/imnotpete/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboa...](https://github.com/imnotpete/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/iris/keymaps/sam/keymap.c)

------
rococode
I'm a big fan of 75% keyboards. The layout retains nearly everything from a
full-size keyboard except the number pad (i.e. there are F-keys, numbers,
arrows, Escape, Home/PgUp/PgDown, etc.), but compresses it all into a single
rectangular block.

For me, it's the perfect balance of compactness and usability. Fits snugly in
my backpack but allows me to use my preferred set of keybinds since all the
relevant keys are there.

Here's a site with a rundown of most of the popular sizes:
[https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-
size-...](https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-
tkl-60-and-more-a-guide-to-mechanical-keyboard-sizes/)

~~~
52-6F-62
Hahaha—that binary keyboard.

For me, I'm a happy full-size user—at home and at work.

Work: The discontinued Apple Magic wired (like:
[https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16872204/ma...](https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16872204/matias-
apple-mac-keyboard-wired-backlight-rgb-ces-2018))

Home: Logitech K840 [https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/k840-mechanical-
corde...](https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/k840-mechanical-corded-
keyboard)

I find both fantastic. Having learned to use the numpad by navigating speedily
through old hierarchical menus on a DOS-based POS system, I don't think I can
let them go.

------
Yizahi
People like to talk a lot about KB ergonomics, reducing carpal syndrome and
there is a reason for it, but I don't understand why almost nobody does the
one thing that contributes the most for improvement - inverted KB stand. This
thing on the bottom -
[https://imgur.com/a/yne4lPR](https://imgur.com/a/yne4lPR) . People fiddle
with layouts, key travel, key shape, switches etc. but that doesn't really
matter if your wrists are crooked. If your wrists aren't straight you will
injure them over time, that's a fact. And I see almost none KBs which allow
changing KB level in a good way (in a bad way almost all of them - with stupid
stands in back of KB).

~~~
the_gipsy
Anything to back up these "facts"? There are many, many activities that
require your wrist to be not straight. Playing musical instruments, sports...

~~~
AWildC182
Do you do any of them for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year?

Used to row about 20 hours a week for a few years. It does the same thing if
you're not careful.

~~~
the_gipsy
Some people certainly do, and I didn't question that.

I question the "fact" that straight wrists matter over all other things.

~~~
Yizahi
What "other" things? Carpal syndrome is an official illness with clearly
defined causes - squeezing and damaging nerves and arteries in the wrist, in
the thinnest moving point of a hand. There are no "other" things (in the scope
of this post, about keyboards) and yes, it is a fact.

------
celeritascelery
> It’s sort of obvious to figure out that the less we have to move our hand
> from the home row to the arrow keys, the more time we save. There is however
> a more formalized way to look at this in the field of user interface design.

I feel like this thinking is flawed. When you are pressing a sequence of keys,
your fingers don’t wait for the first key to be pressed before the next finger
starts moving to its key. This means that it is in position right after the
first key is hit. One of the reasons that more optimized layouts (Dvorak, etc)
don’t seem to produce any speed up, Even though from a Fitt’s law perspective
they should.

Having a tiny keyboard will not make you faster and may slow you down because
of all the layers you now need to use.

------
rwbaskette
I use the olkb plank
([https://olkb.com/planck?category=eotw](https://olkb.com/planck?category=eotw))
both at home and at the office. It started as fun to build, solder, and
program but I soon realized that I was less fatigued after typing all day. My
wrists don't break outward and I maintain my proper starting position longer
as result of having less distance to travel between keystrokes. Take it for
what it's worth, but at the very least they are a fun hobby project.

------
6gvONxR4sf7o
What's everybody's preferred "shit I'm developing RSI and need to make
ergonomic changes" keyboards? Wrist and thumb is unhappy, if that's happened
to any of you.

~~~
wyclif
I've been in the industry for decades as a engineer/programmer/developer, and
I've never gotten RSI. I'm a big fan of the old IBM Model M mechanical
keyboards with the buckling springs. I know it's not as cool as some of the
things available or that people in this thread are making, but it gets the job
done. It's also heavy and doesn't slide around, it has a metal bottom chassis
and in case of an attack on your office, you could potentially use it as a
shield or weapon.

Years ago after I got into Linux, I got one of these and it's still going
strong. One of the best purchases I've ever made. Best of all, the Ctrl key is
where it should be for *NIX people:
[https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA](https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA)

------
gbrown
I never have any problems with wrist fatigue, and I've sometimes wondered if
it's because I type "wrong". Holding your fingers at home row and stretching
always felt weird to me, and I learned to type naturally. I primarily use
three digits on each hand plus thumbs (no pinkies), and I move my hands back
and forth as needed - no stretching or reaching.

I can type ~60 WPM if I'm really trying, but I never really have occasion to
type that fast

~~~
vollmond
This sounds a bit like my wife's typing. Super weird to watch, but she can go
fast and never complains of pain despite doing 100% of her typing on a laptop.

My computer-related pain started maybe 3 years into my career, and mostly
manifested in my fingers and hand, less in my wrist. I switched at that point
to a Logitech Wingman trackball and a Microsoft Natural 4000 split, negative-
tilt keyboard, and the pain went away almost instantly and hasn't come back in
the 12 years or so since.

~~~
gbrown
Interesting. I've never had trouble with the bog-standard MS keyboards that
happen to come with most office workstations. I do like the feel of hybrid
mechanical-rubber keys though, the click is nice.

My wife says my typing looks really weird too, but it works for me. Hours and
hours of AIM chat when I was in junior high and high school paid off I guess.

------
shirro
I tried a 60% about 10 years ago with a happy hacker but it wasn't a great
keyboard to use and wasn't easily customisable or with many options. I just
jumped back in this week with an Anne 2 Pro. I was moving from laptop back to
desktop use and was looking to replace my full size with a mech TKL since I
never use numpads ever but I wondered if corded replacements for some of those
keys wouldn't be practical with a smarter bit of hardware so I gave it a go.

I have ~` replacing escape since I need them for shell and programming. I
don't understand how any keyboard could drop that key. I set caps as a
function key to access arrows (on hjkl as well as wasd) as well as the
function keys and a few other features and it operates as Esc on tap which
would be useful if I didn't have jj escape from insert mode. Overall very
happy so far. There are a few window manager and term combinations I used to
need to reach over to the arrows and which I never bothered to remap that I
can do one handed.

It makes me want to become a proficient typist.

The only problem is it has better led light shows than the old full size
gaming keyboard and the kids want to type on it all day.

------
kentosi
As someone who uses IntelliJ all day long I couldn't use a 40% keyboard at
work due to all the layering combinations needed for F1 -> F12.

However I did try for a while, and the best I've gotten to is remapping my
Caps Lock key to a meta key that converts hjkl to my arrow keys.

It's a small step, but I haven't looked back since. Typing is SO much faster
when you never have to leave the home row.

------
azhenley
I recently moved to a 60% keyboard (Drop Alt with Clear switches) and really
like it.

I find the _look_ of these 40% keyboards very appealing. But I also don’t want
to have to relearn to type or customize every keyboard I ever purchase in the
future. If those barriers get reduced I think they could be very intriguing.
Ortholinear keyboards are especially interesting...

~~~
PretzelFisch
I just hooked up my Alt with Clear this morning (previous daskeyboard). I miss
the mx brown but I like how close the mouse is to the board and the reduction
in reaching for the other keys. Having come from several years of split
keyboards my main switching complaint was the switch and key quality was
really bad. So this 40% is a positive step I hope catches on.

------
b0rsuk
Where is a hexagonal keyboard when you need it? Hexes are sweet for strategy
and puzzle games, but could also be sweet for roguelikes if input devices were
better. A smaller keyboard barely solves any problem, especially if you have
palms as large as mine. But a hex keyboard would. Not even Kickstarter has
something for hexagonal input device.

~~~
intrepidhero
I just happened across
[http://xahlee.info/kbd/benzene666_keyboard.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/benzene666_keyboard.html)
will reading through some of the links in this thread. Unfortunately his
review is spartan, and not positive.

~~~
b0rsuk
Hexagonal _arrow keys_ would have been enough.

------
pugworthy
Another person here who went to a 60% and I really enjoy it. I have built two
with custom switch setups, one for gaming and one for general typing.

There's a lot of satisfying craftsmanship to buying a circuit board here, a
case there, switches matching your style of typing, and lastly keycaps that
have a nice aesthetic and color balance.

------
WalterBright
I still much much prefer a full size keyboard. I could only find one on Amazon
that would connect with bluetooth. I throw it in my luggage when traveling so
at least in my hotel room I can use a full size keyboard.

I hate those wretched trackpads on laptops, and also throw a full size
bluetooth mouse in my luggage.

~~~
blacksmythe
I don't travel with an extra keyboard, but I do take a mouse.

An external mouse is so much better, and hardly takes up any space.

------
wy35
I've built a Planck (40% ortho) and I can say for sure that I personally don't
find the short finger travel between keys to be worth having to hit two keys
to type a number, for example. Instead of moving one finger an extra row to
type a number, I now have to move two fingers.

~~~
jacobolus
The problem here is not the lack of an additional row of number keys, but the
poor other choices in physical keyboard layout (based on largely following the
historical pattern of a 19th century typewriter design; in the “planck”
example with an arbitrary ergonomically-useless horizontal shifting of the
rows). It also doesn’t work very well to put the numbers on a shifted layer
but all on the same row, requiring 8 fingers across both hands to type them.

If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according with human hand/arm
ergonomics (of particular relevance for chording, moving or extending thumb
keys toward the body; the standard spacebar and modifiers are not especially
comfortable), and use a thumb key located in a convenient spot for the layer
shift, with the numbers typed using the fingers of the opposite hand, then
chorded numbers are just fine: more comfortable and efficient than the
standard approach of putting numbers on a separate row.

For cases when many numbers must be typed in sequence, making that layer shift
key into an optional mode switch (to effectively turn half the keyboard into a
numpad) works pretty well.

~~~
clarry
If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according to human hand
ergonomics, you can easily fit a number row that is easy to reach without
making typos. See kinesis advantage. It's hard to imagine how requiring me to
press two different keys for the same effect would increase speed and reduce
typos. I suspect the effect is completely opposite. (Shift is painful enough
and I hate typing camelcase code)

Number keys are also indispensable for games where you need to switch items
while moving. A finger or two are already going to be busy with the motion
keys, adding two more fingers that don't overlap with the motions is going for
some octopus keyhandling.

~~~
jacobolus
The further keys on a sculpted Kinesis keyboard are angled the wrong way for
comfortable typing (this is an unfortunate artifact of their curved PCB
technology combined with lack of first-principles analysis by the designers).
You want the switch axis to remain perpendicular to the hand, because flexing
the proximal joint of the finger is the way people press keys, and using the
whole hand to stab at further keys the way the sculpted Kinesis board requires
is not particularly comfortable or efficient. There are also several other
design problems with the Kinesis boards, but this isn’t really the right place
to discuss it at length.

It’s certainly _possible_ to have 2 rows of reasonably reachable keys past the
home row (especially if the tops of the further keys are aggressively raised –
think 1950s typewriter). Even in the best case those keys are substantially
slower and more error prone (and less comfortable) than the home row or next
row above, but with decent design can be made nominally acceptable to type on.

But it also works a bit better in practice to put more functions (like numbers
and common symbols) on shifted layers, as long as the shift keys are
conveniently located. Using pinkies for shift is not the most comfortable
choice, especially pinky keys which are a stretch to reach. Modern keyboard
layouts are quite terrible for making common computer code symbols accessible.

If you find it uncomfortable to hold down a shift key, consider trying a
sequence of key presses instead. That is, let your "shift" just act as a dead
key, modifying the immediately following keypress. Try putting your various
shift keys on a thumb or forefinger.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_key](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_key)

I have no particular insight into game inputs, except to note here that a
significant proportion of serious computer game players develop severe RSI
because their use of keyboard hardware is extreme (and arguably the hardware
they use is not very well suited to handling the job safely).

~~~
clarry
> But it also works a bit better in practice to put more functions on shifted
> layers

I've never found that to be the case. For me, layers (and modifiers in
general) have always been slower and more error prone.

Also, I find the number row on the kinesis quite comfortable. I have yet to
find a comparable keyboard in that regard.

~~~
jacobolus
The Maltron is better than the Kinesis. Still not quite right though.

This (the “DataStealth”) is a better designed-based-on-anatomy keyboard:
[http://i.imgur.com/USaQaIG.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/USaQaIG.jpg)

Unfortunately never produced commercially.

------
tenebrisalietum
I want to go the other way. I want a 200% keyboard. I don't want to have to
type SHIFT for capital letters or symbols and I want extra keys for diagonal
cursor movement. The SHIFT key is an artifact of the physical limitations of a
typewriter and is no longer needed.

~~~
ReC757
I want a key for each finger with no movement required. :)

~~~
stevenwliao
[https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni](https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni)

I hear you can still get one before Christmas if you order soon :P

------
GrayShade
I don't have RSI, but it seems to me that rotating your wrists to press Ctrl
with your pinky is one of the larger parts of the problem.

I prefer to press Ctrl with the side of my palm, but that doesn't work on some
Lenovo and Apple laptops which Fn is at the edge of the keyboard.

~~~
knome
You may want to check the BIOS for your laptop. It often has the ability to
swap the `ctrl` and `fn` keys, which is nice for those of us that find their
choice to put them on backwards from how they ought to have annoying.

~~~
GrayShade
That's a fair point, but I avoid on principle laptops with stupid keyboard
layouts (which seem to be more and more common these days).

On the other hand, my current laptop (which I haven't bought) has no End key,
but rather Home, PgUp, PgDn, Power.

------
vijucat
I have a Diverge 3 and I love the split aspect of it (easier on the wrists /
nerves), and love the programmability (I have the keys that I use most near
the home row), and I appreciate the wrist rest, but I miss the function keys'
row. It has 71 keys.

I think 40% keyboards work well for gamers, but are impractical for
developers, who need to access all the symbol keys ( (, {, [, etc;), and often
need access to the function keys, too. Layering, having to press Fn and
another key to achieve what could be a single keypress on a 101-key keyboard,
just adds work. The input mechanism must be seamless so that one may focus on
the actual work. The keyboard should just disappear. The much-touted
keyboard.io has the same limitation.

~~~
callum-oakley
As a full time 40% keyboard user, I take issue with the sentiment that the
form factor is impractical for development. Holding a layer modifier to access
symbols on the home row is less work than moving to the far reaches of a 101
key board, and often having to hit shift as well anyway!

I wrote an article on the subject recently if you're up for having your
assumptions challenged: [https://callumoakley.net/posts/48-keys-are-
plenty](https://callumoakley.net/posts/48-keys-are-plenty)

~~~
vijucat
Interesting, thanks for the article! So it looks like there are two types of
people: those who don't mind moving away from the home row a bit but have just
one keypress (me) vs. those who value being on the home row and don't mind the
additional keypress to access layers with symbols, arrows, , etc;

------
melling
The chorded keyboard looks interesting too:

[http://tbf-rnd.life/blog/2019/06/16/0-learning-curve-chorded...](http://tbf-
rnd.life/blog/2019/06/16/0-learning-curve-chorded-typing/)

------
rjplatte
Absolutely love my Planck. I was going to build more keebs, but it's perfect
for my needs, and my wrists feel infinitely better.

Another excellent solution is the XD75, which is ortholinear, but puts a
number pad between QWERT and YUIOP. The spacing is absolutely great.

------
devit
Physically removing the number pad and the arrow keys can be useful because it
allows the mouse to be placed closer to the center, but removing the number
row and function keys doesn't seem to provide any significant benefit for
desktop usage.

------
irjustin
I use the Diverge 3 + Khaili box whites as my daily driver. It has more layers
than I personally could ever effectively utilize. Absolutely love this setup.

I picked it up over the Ergodox. After having used my co-worker's erogdox
repeatedly, I did not like how far the thumb cluster was and this simply
brought it closer which is what the author is explaining with the minimal
amount of movement.

I don't like 40% keyboards because I am still traditionalist in that numbers
are still a first class key. Basically, what am I willing to give up and allow
to be put into a cord/layer?

If I could, I would bring the arrow keys back out, but the design's cost goes
up a lot when that happens.

~~~
bootlooped
I've found the small keys on the thumb clusters on the Ergodox to be a good
location for select function keys. I don't have to hit them often, but much of
the time I do, it must be in combination with some modifier keys for certain
IDE shortcuts. I have seen layouts online where people assign nothing to them.
As for the big keys on the thumb clusters, I don't find them to be an issue. I
do think it would be better if they were moved in just a hair though.

------
adambyrtek
This is a good description of the default 40% layout and function layers on
MiniVan keyboards: [https://drop.com/talk/115/where-did-all-my-keys-go-a-look-
in...](https://drop.com/talk/115/where-did-all-my-keys-go-a-look-into-the-
function-layers-of-the-mini-van)

Of course you can reconfigure everything to suit your needs and flash directly
to your board using open source QMK firmware:
[https://docs.qmk.fm](https://docs.qmk.fm)

Custom keyboards are a great hobby for people who want to control and hack
their own hardware.

------
halvdan
I own a HHKB[1] and while very pleasant to type with the fact that the
function keys are on another layer can be cumbersome in some IDEs. In IntelliJ
IDEs you have Ctrl + F9 to build (or something like that) which means pressing
Ctrl + Fn + 9. Maybe the experience can be improved with better placement of
the Fn-key (which on the HHKB is in the lower right corner).

Reading the comments about experiences with split and/or ergonomic keyboards
makes me want to try some other variants.

[1] [https://www.hhkeyboard.com/](https://www.hhkeyboard.com/)

~~~
petepete
As a Vimmer, the HHKB is very close to perfection. I can reach every key
without having to move my hands too far, the Fn key fall right under my right
little finger and Control being in the correct place is a _huge_ win. The fact
that it has Topre switches is the icing on the cake, I wouldn't use any other
keyboard on a prolonged basis.

~~~
wyclif
What is it about the Topre switches that you prefer?

~~~
petepete
I like the smooth action and 'thunk'. It's a pleasure to type on after many
years' use.

------
lemper
currently, i use split and concave mechanical keyboards with 38 keys[1] and 42
keys[2] and i have no problem so far. i also put mods on the homerows for left
and right hand. whenever i want to type numbers, i only have to move down my
thumb and then move down one of my three fingers. for symbols, i write haskell
and racket, i don't have any problem either. as for f-keys and common
shortcuts, i also don't have any problem. while writing prose, i literally
don't have to move my wrists at all[3]. and here's my current layout [4].

[1]
[https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/248892149/IMG201...](https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/248892149/IMG20191117024445.jpg?auto=format&fit=max&h=1000&w=1000)

[2] [https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-
keyboard/tree/coffin](https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/coffin)
or tree/master

[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBFrzXZbec](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBFrzXZbec)

[4]
[https://github.com/ibnuda/qmk_firmware/tree/rarded/keyboards...](https://github.com/ibnuda/qmk_firmware/tree/rarded/keyboards/handwired/dactyl_manuform/4x5/keymaps/sunat)

------
briantakita
One can make a programmable matrix layout keyboard with Two Koolertron
keyboards. While it may be a bit bigger than the 40% keyboard, it's small,
programmable, & has 96 keys or 94 keys in 3 toggleable layouts.

Gamers tend to use it has an extended numpad but I use it as my general
keyboard with bespoke tilting upwards toward the middle.

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_shar...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share)

~~~
lioeters
I've never seen those, nice! I like the cute and minimalistic design with no
labels. It's advertised as a "Single-Handed Programmable Mechanical Keyboard",
a unit having 48 keys (in 4 groups of 4x3) - I see, so one for each hand. It
being programmable sounds great, one could position characters and modifiers
any which way to please.

Just curious, I suppose you've placed labels with your own mapping - or do you
use the keys blank like that?

~~~
slightwinder
They also have a "Koolertron Programmable Split Mechanical Keyboard" which is
basically two units working as a complete keyboard.

------
kettro
I’ve been using an 1800 keyboard for the past few years (Leopold 980C), and
think the size is perfect. I have access to all of the keys I need, all in a
compact package. Add to that a programmable controller from Hasu, and it’s the
perfect board for me. I never need to actually use the arrow keys, as I put
them under a layer under hjkl. I also use a trackball (Kensington Slimblade),
so I don’t need to have too much space to the right side of the keyboard.

------
snek
I use a 40% keyboard (the planck ez), and I have to say I really enjoy using
it. Typing english is about the same speed at this point, but I'm still
lagging a bit behind in programming, mostly because my brain still confuses
layers and shift. The thing I love most through is that I no longer curl my
left pinky under my hand to hit shift, and my pinky doesn't hurt all the time.

------
skocznymroczny
While I like the look of some of these 40%/60% keyboards, the tall keys are a
big no-no for me. My wrists hurt just by looking at it.

~~~
wishinghand
Some have really flat keys, like this: [https://user-
images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06...](https://user-
images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06462b80-fc08-11e8-95fd-8d18763b38ff.jpg)

------
ianai
Is anybody trying to combine the mouse input with the keys themselves? Ie
embedding a nib? I’m thinking like a light touch on a home row key being
interpreted as a mouse click. Have the nib input only register if the key is
either depressed or not, depending on implementation.

~~~
whywhywhywhy
TEX Yoda[0] mechanical and Thinkpad Compact USB Keyboard[1] scissor switch
might interest you.

[0]
[https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...](https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3924)
[1] [https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-
monitors/keyboa...](https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-
monitors/keyboards-and-mice/keyboards/KEYBOARD-UK-English/p/0B47221)

------
xondono
I find this kinds of keyboards very interesting, but doing CAD work seems like
a pain.

The biggest problem I find with all of this is that most of my software has
locked down (or crappy systems for changing) shortcuts, so it would be
painfully hard to set up one of this.

Interesting stuff anyway.

~~~
Symbiote
For CAD work, something like a large macropad might be helpful -- giving
additional keys, rather than taking some away.

On a keyboard like the one linked below, every key can be programmed
arbitrarily, i.e. you can set a single key to do "Control X" or whatever. I
don't know if this can do it, but things like having a single key do "Control
X, 5, move mouse left 5 pixels, Control K" are possible on some of these
mechanical keyboards, given some programming ability.

("Gaming" macropads are also an option, the flashy LEDs can usually be
disabled.)

[http://xahlee.info/kbd/ly092_mini_keyboard.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/ly092_mini_keyboard.html)

------
rcpt
I never really committed to hjkl until getting a pok3r. I love 60% keyboards
now though I still get a bit mixed up every now and then when I accidentally
hit the combo for "insert" or find myself in the wrong mode.

------
stockkid
40% keyboards are cool. I was initially skeptical when I moved to a 40%
keyboard from a full sized split keyboard. After couple of months, I observed
no drop in productivity or had strains.

------
halotrope
Most people would benefit much more from practicing proper (touch-) typing
than upgrading/innovating devices.

~~~
joosters
Would programmers actually benefit? Realistically, how often are you limited
by your typing speed when coding?

I can type fast but there’s no way I could ever keep writing code at my typing
speed, I’m always pausing to think about what I’m writing. If you type slower,
you are still thinking about the code as you type. Is typing really the
limiting factor, or is it actually the thinking?

~~~
kgwgk
I think the discussion is about ergonomics, not speed.

~~~
joosters
Much of the discussion is about having fewer keys, resulting in more multiple
key presses to type certain symbols. That’s not improving ergonomics.

~~~
kgwgk
It seems some people find that not having to move the arms makes up for hand
contortions.

But you’re right, the article conclusion is that “First of all, the reduced
distances will increase speed, (...) If it turns out that 40% keyboards can
reduce Repetitive Strain Injury or R.S.I. (...)”

Anyway, I think touch typing helps in all fronts. The alternative is not just
slower typing, it also adds a mental load that can only distract from the
thinking.

------
xwdv
If you’re going to go small you might as well go all the way and get a 30%
keyboard like the Gherkin. Very portable and not too bad as long as you’re
willing to work with layers.

~~~
gt2
How do you quickly access the other layers to do a semicolon or colon or space
with those keyboards? Saw a photo-- it's all letters.

~~~
Ataraxy
Using software such as QMK you can program these custom boards to do anything.
To answer your question all keys are accessible by turning whichever key you
like into a modifier when held down so you can access another layer.

It's not that bad when you realize through your entire life you do the same
thing with SHIFT to capitalize letters for example. All of these small boards
are just an extension of that concept.

~~~
gt2
Sounds fun! Thanks for the reply.

------
george_ciobanu
Check out KeyMouse, super cool concept.

~~~
clarry
I have one. It's too heavy and bulky for a mouse, and too flat & unergonomic
for a keyboard. There are lots of pinky keys I find very difficult or
impossible to reach when the hand is resting in the natural position on the
device. And you don't want to move the hand too much around or you end up
moving the mouse... Honestly the tiny little mouse buttons suck too.

------
agumonkey
I need that for my car.

