
As cashless stores grow, so does the backlash - Breadmaker
https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/business/2019/04/12/cashless-stores-grow-backlash/39336669/
======
ghaff
On the one hand,

1.) I rarely use cash and

2.) I'm sympathetic to places being able to opt out of dealing with cash if
they so choose but

3.) I don't really care for a trend that makes it increasingly difficult to
conduct transactions anonymously (as well as making it more difficult for some
people to participate)

There are certainly card systems that can be replenished with cash but you
don't see them widely in the US--presumably because credit cards are so
popular.

~~~
bobthepanda
Are you talking about prepaid debit cards? Those have lots of fees and such;
as someone who used to rely on them, they’re helpful if you absolutely need it
but not easy or painless.

Banks don’t like establishing branches in low income areas, and low income
people don’t usually have a means of transportation or time to get to a bank.

~~~
ghaff
No, I'm talking about something like Pasmo cards, which are widely used in
Japan for all sorts of things not limited to transit.
[https://www.pasmo.co.jp/en/buy/](https://www.pasmo.co.jp/en/buy/)

~~~
bobthepanda
Pasmo and Octopus(Hong Kong)-type systems only gained massive adoption because
they were a valid form of payment on widely used transit networks. The US
doesn't have very many of those.

Most US transit agencies these days want to get out of the payments business
(Pasmo and Octopus have to be managed as debit card systems and transit
agencies can't afford the overhead), so they're adopting London's second-
generation system, where you can pay with contactless bank cards. So we might
just skip that intermediate phase entirely.

------
Wowfunhappy
To me, the obvious solution here is to have a government-run, cash-free
payment system that's explicitly designed to be accessible to all citizens.
Let people deposit money at the DMV or some such, and provide debit cards to
be used against their balance. Just provide what's strictly necessary—the goal
isn't to replace private banks.

Sadly, I don't see any possibility of this happening in the current political
climate.

~~~
jonathankoren
Postal banks are a thing. They work fine, and exist next to private banks, all
over the world.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_savings_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_savings_system)

~~~
Wowfunhappy
> In the United States, the United States Postal Savings System was
> established in 1911 under the Act of June 25, 1910 (36 Stat. 814). It was
> discontinued by the Act of March 28, 1966 (80 Stat. 92).

Oh, wonderful, so we had it but we got rid of it. :\

------
jonathankoren
The problem here isn’t that the store doesn’t take cash, it’s that these
people don’t have a bank. If you want to pass a regulation, it’s offer fee-
less checking accounts with no minimum balance. This isn’t some crazy thing.
It’s literally a product every bank used to offer, until very recently.

It blows my mind that so many people in the US don’t have bank accounts. The
ads for alternative banks equally blow my mind. Their selling point is...
direct deposit.

It’s a whole alternative world out there of people that take physical checks
to stores, pay $3 to cash a check, the. Turn around and pay their electric
bill at the same place (probably for another $3). Just get direct deposit and
autopay, and your credit will probably improve automagically as well.

~~~
mcguire
True...ish.

Many illegal workers don't have accounts and either can't get them or don't
trust banks.

Many of the poor get paid directly in cash for various reasons; you'd have to
convince some of them that they need an account.

Then there's the whole criminal enterprise thing, a not inconsequential chunk
of the economy.

~~~
jonathankoren
I’m not really sure any of this actually explains a majority of the unbanked.
Sure, it explains why people engaged in illicit trade don’t use a bank, but I
find it hard to believe that is a sufficient explanation, especially when
compared to lack of identification, perceptions of banks, and perhaps lack
viable products (eg A checking account with “$25 maintenance fee waved if you
keep a balance of $500 or more” is out of reach for the paycheck to paycheck
crowd.)

------
eldenbishop
During the 2017 Tubbs fire in Santa Rosa virtually all the stores in West
Sonoma went cash only. I pulled out maybe 300 bucks when I drove up to check
on my property and spent 3-4 days buying everything with cash. Came back to
work with maybe 150$ in my pocket and was shocked how many of the places in
downtown SF didn't accept cash. It was a real eye-opener.

------
siculars
Cashless society will have real repercussions for the lower rungs of the
economic ladder. As it is I ask myself how do I give money to homeless people
when I'm not carrying cash? How do people without phones or cards interact
with no cash merchants?

As cell phones and credit cards become ubiquitous the acquisition of these
devices will need to be mandated by the gov. Aka, you can not be barred from
getting a phone/bank account/credit card because you do not have a place to
live.

~~~
natalyarostova
Don't give money to homeless people, please. The homeless who need it get
their money from services that help them get back on their feet. The
degenerate drug addicts who plague the city need to stop getting cash from
people.

~~~
tempguy9999
I am very uncomfortable with your presumptive use of 'degenerate' here. Are
you equating addicts with degeneracy, and what comprises degeneracy in your
view?

And what is a drug - Does alcohol count? I know a guy who's drinking himself
to death but has his own house.

Also what do you think of this [https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/05/the-case-
for-prescriptio...](https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/05/the-case-for-
prescription-heroin/)

~~~
natalyarostova
I'm sorry that makes you feel uncomfortable. I view degeneracy as the moral
decay that causes the societal and familial ties to dissipate, as well as the
inability for a local or state government to manage its people, that results
in feces and tents littering my street from broken humans unable to take care
of themselves.

~~~
monocasa
Crazy idea: maybe feces and tents are littering your street because no one's
helping them, rather than 'degeneracy'.

~~~
natalyarostova
Obviously it's both, right? Although "help" is an interesting term. It can
span a lot of policies, some that make sense, others that don't. Meanwhile the
degeneration of familial support networks and moral codes plays a part in a
more atomized society, where falling into drug addiction with no non-state
help becomes increasingly common.

------
Shaddox
What's the incentive for a business going cashless? I can see some upsides to
it like eliminating the risk of employee theft but the intermediaries take a
cut.

~~~
koala_man
I imagine that the labor and security required to handle cash is costly. This
is the best number I could find:

"The cost of cash handling can range on average from as low as 4.7% of cash to
over 15% of cash depending on the retail segment."

[http://www.ihlservices.com/product/costofcash/](http://www.ihlservices.com/product/costofcash/)

~~~
mcguire
I hate to cast aspersions on the source, but... " _IHL Group is a global
research and advisory firm specializing in technologies for the retail and
hospitality industries. The company, based in Franklin, Tenn., generates
timely data reports, offers advisory services and serves as the leading retail
technology spokesperson for industry and vendor events._ "

(Hey, Franklin, TN!)

Anyway, here's some more:

[https://www.cashmatters.org/blog/paying-with-cash-costs-
less...](https://www.cashmatters.org/blog/paying-with-cash-costs-less-time-
and-money-finds-bundesbank-study-feb-2019/)

" __ _Key findings_ __

" _Cash payments are about 7 seconds faster than card payments with PIN
entry._

" _Cash payments are about 16 seconds faster than card payments with with
signature._

" _Cash payments up to €50 are cheaper, since the fixed costs for cash
payments are on average lower._ "

[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321386231_Costs_and...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321386231_Costs_and_Benefits_of_Cash_and_Cashless_Payment_Instruments_in_Germany_Module_2_The_Benefits_of_Cash)

" _The assertion that cash is inefficient is often based exclusively on cost
considerations and a purely partial-analytical or business perspective (eg
Bloching, 2007; Guibourg & Segendorf, 2007). Benefit aspects are not taken
into consideration. Moreover, the empirical evidence is by no means clear-cut.
Even in the more business-oriented approaches with regard to costs, cash
payments are not necessarily more expensive than cashless alternatives. In
Germany, the cost per transaction of cash is even lower than that of debit and
credit cards. In terms of cost per turnover, debit cards are cheaper than
cash, whereas credit cards are more expensive (Krueger & Seitz, 2014, Chapter
3; Thiele, 2016). In a study commissioned by the ECB covering several
countries (Schmiedel et al, 2012), the findings did not reveal a uniform
picture: in some countries, cash is the cheapest means of payment, whereas in
other countries, cashless payment instruments are the cheapest._"

[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265496400_The_Econo...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265496400_The_Economics_of_a_Cashless_Society_An_Analysis_of_the_Costs_and_Benefits_of_Payment_Instruments)

" _We present three case studies that illustrate the welfare implications of
substituting one kind of payment method for another. We find that when all key
parties to a transaction are considered and benefits are added, cash and
checks are more costly than many earlier studies suggest. In general, the
shift toward a cashless society appears to be a beneficial one._ "

[https://www.bundesbank.de/resource/blob/710096/4f27e9114ce3a...](https://www.bundesbank.de/resource/blob/710096/4f27e9114ce3a08b74b6c6effee04f65/mL/costs-
and-benefits-of-cash-2014-data.pdf)

[Ok, so I can't find a good summary quote. But it looks interesting. I think
it's module 1 of the first link above.]

~~~
Nursie
Most of the cashless places I see are also contactless-only, which is
certainly going to be faster, if that is a concern.

------
bko
Not every store or service has to serve everyone.

For most people who use credit cards a cashless store could be a huge benefit
to them as it would likely increase efficiency and perhaps offer lower prices.
The benefits to the city would likely be less tax avoidance. I don't see why
we would limit innovation just because some people would not be able to
participate.

------
francis-io
Why does it discriminate against poor people? Do bank accounts cost money in
america?

~~~
yreg
What's the problem with a company "discriminating" poor people? The case could
be made that any company providing services for money is discriminating
against the poor.

~~~
noir_lord
> What's the problem with a company "discriminating" poor people?

From the point of view of a company, probably nothing in their eyes.

From a societal point of view poor people already have an uneven playing field
when it comes to a fair shot in life so making that worse seems like a bad
idea.

Unless for some reason you like a permanent underclass of people stuck where
they are for some reason I guess.

I personally don't, social mobility is generally a good thing (not least for
the economy as a whole).

~~~
yreg
Is Tesla evil for discriminating against the poor?

------
niahmiah
“Legal tender for all debts public and private” used to mean something...

~~~
Chris2048
Buying a taco isn't repaying a debt..

~~~
CompelTechnic
To get the fully nuanced picture: -If you wander around to a grocery store
bakery, and eat one of the donuts before getting to checkout, you have the
right to settle your debt with cash. -Otherwise, the store can force you to
pay with their preferred method, or else will return the merchandise to the
shelves.

~~~
Chris2048
> and eat one of the donuts before getting to checkout

I'm not sure you have a legal right to do this. I'm pretty sure consuming
something that isn't your is actually theft.

~~~
CompelTechnic
Yeah, that's a good point. I mostly wanted to convey a payment after use of
the product or service. A better example might be paying your mechanic after
he finishes fixing your car.

------
Chris2048
Can someone explain to me:

> It took another year to build up enough funds to use his debit card
> regularly.

Once you have an account, is there some kind of barrier to getting a debit
card?

~~~
maxsilver
Technically, there's no barrier. But practically speaking, yes, there is a
huge barrier.

Having an account is not enough to safely use a debit card, you also have to
build up enough emergency funding to use a debit card. Otherwise, you risk a
~$50/charge for overdrafting, if you happen to be a off (even by as little as
one cent).

Note that you as a consumer have very little control over if/when you
overdraft, as American banks can _legally reorder your transactions outside of
real date /time_ to artificially generate higher overdraft fees than actually
happened in the real world.

[https://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtouryalai/2013/06/11/yes-b...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtouryalai/2013/06/11/yes-
banks-are-reordering-your-transactions-and-charging-overdraft-
fees/#e6b79136daa3)

~~~
Chris2048
Don't overdrafts have to be authorized? Can't you get a zero-overdraft card?

~~~
Wowfunhappy
My bank, Chase, lets me turn off "Overdraft Protection". If I don't have
enough money in my account, the debit card transaction gets denied.

But, you have to explicitly request this. The so-called "protection" is on by
default.

