
Ask HN: Career change at 40: bootcamp, degree, other? - checkyoursudo
I am currently a lawyer in the US. I am moving to Germany in a few months. I am committing to a career change, since my spouse earns enough for us to live on. I&#x27;ve had enough of being a lawyer.<p>I am considering whether I should do a coding bootcamp, an online degree through a US institution, or a degree in Germany[1], or to continue to work&#x2F;study on my own until I can get a job (remote or local).<p>I started in CS when I was in college in the late 90&#x27;s, but I switched away from that and earned my degree in philosophy (focus in logic and ethics). Back then I learned C and Java. Then HTML, CSS, and PHP3. I built a few dozen websites on my own, and I contributed to the production of about 600 or so. But, that was a long time ago, and I&#x27;m not interested in web development so much any more.<p>When I switched from Windows to Gentoo GNU&#x2F;Linux about 10 years ago, I started learning Bash scripting and some sysadmin basics, just for fun&#x2F;interest.<p>A couple of years ago, I started to learn Python 3, and I have dabbled a bit in Common Lisp. Python led me to machine learning, which I really like, but I&#x27;m not 100% sure I want a career in ML anymore (I thought I did maybe a year ago, and I still might -- I <i>really</i> like it).<p>I have written a lot of code over the years, but I don&#x27;t have anything that would really qualify as a portfolio, or much that I feel like I could turn into a portfolio.<p>I guess this is the main reason I have been looking at doing something like a bootcamp, or cheap online degree--though money really isn&#x27;t the issue. Or should I just start to work on a portfolio of projects?<p>I have also worked professionally as an editor many years ago, which came out of an incomplete foray into a master&#x27;s degree in technical writing.<p>If you had the time and money, would you do a bootcamp, or a degree, or work on your own?<p>[1] My German is around B1-B2 level, and I would work to improve this dramatically if I were going to try for a local degree.
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i_phish_cats
Is it your goal to be a junior IT plebian throughout your 40's competing with
eastern bloc/south asian workers? Because that's what a bootcamp and half-
baked knowledge in a bunch of random trendy technologies will get you,
especially outside of silicon valley. A degree at your age won't get you far
either -- tech companies what 22 year old grads, not 44 year olds (unless you
already have a CS degree and are talking about a PhD).

Why completely throw away your experience as a lawyer? I am starting a company
in the legal-tech domain and it'd be very valuable to have someone with
experience in both sides of the world.

~~~
TheGrumpyBrit
Instead of throwing away those years as a lawyer, I'd look to complement them
- specifically, I'd look at management/director level
infosec/compliance/governance roles. You'll get less hands-on exposure as a
manager, but your legal experience will give you a leg up that it seems silly
to throw away. You can always move on to more technical roles later, with the
advantage of a tech-related job title in your resume.

Law is like IT - even if you get a job in a completely unrelated field, as
soon as your past gets out, you'll find yourself inundated with requests to
"just take a look at this." Might as well use that experience to your
advantage first.

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laurentl
Do you have a specific job in mind? It seems obvious that you want to pivot to
an IT/tech role but the particulars (aside from not wanting to work in web
development) aren’t clear. I assume you will be looking for something
interesting and fulfilling rather than a way to pay the bills.

So I would suggest looking at the question from this angle. What
excites/motivates you enough to invest some time in it? What kind of job or
context do you see yourself working in? If you are academically oriented,
getting a degree will probably bring you the most satisfaction while you
figure out the next step. If you’re more practically minded, I would suggest
building your own one-man business, capitalizing on your interests and
expertise (ML to automate lawyery stuff?)

Given your past experience, I don’t know what you would learn in a bootcamp
and (in my opinion) a bootcamp on your resume has weak signaling power. I
would suggest looking at apprenticeship degrees, where you’re at school part-
time and work the rest of the time. They’re pretty common (in France at least)
and some of them are explicitely targeted at people who already have had a
first non-IT career. The upside is that you’ll get to work early on (these
schools will usually help you find a company). The downside is that you’ll be
working in a junior position. But, aside from starting your own business, I
don’t see how you can avoid that.

FWIW, in my company we have an apprentice data scientist who used to be the GM
of an industrial company in Asia! He caught the data science bug a few years
back and he’s having a blast going back to school and learning on the job.

~~~
checkyoursudo
I don't exactly have a specific job title in mind.

If I could get to a point where I could help solve problems in AI R&D, then
that's what I would probably do. I mentioned that my philosophy undergrad
focused on ethics and logic. If I could find a way to work on building systems
that have ethics as a primary concern (ethical algorithms, ethical artificial
intelligence, etc) then I would like that.

I have really enjoyed my self-study in machine learning, and for a while I
thought for sure that's the path I would take. Right now I am not as sure. I
just don't have a good sense of what I should do to keep going down this route
if that's what I want to do, other than trying to get into a data-sciecne-type
degree program perhaps.

I have no issue with starting in a junior position. I don't care about the
money or the power or the prestige specifically -- I just want to do something
interesting and fulfilling. I have already had the chance to make lots of
money in my life, and I just don't care that much, so junior (engineer/data
scientist/etc) is fine. Also, it's easy not to care about money so much when
your partner earns so much; I realize that I am in a fairly privileged place
of not having to worry about money right now, but that's just where the
universe has put me for now.

Otherwise, I am really into Linux and FOSS stuff. I don't know if I would like
kernel dev or embedded software as a career, but that's a possibility.

~~~
laurentl
Thanks for clarifying. Given the interests you cite (e.g. AI R&D), a
specialized degree might be necessary to break into the field - I don’t really
see a clear path from “starting a new career in IT” to “working on advanced
topics” that doesn’t include a degree or a few years of work and regular
promotions/job changes.

Re junior positions, they’re often not the most interesting jobs, unless you
have a specific interest in learning the ropes (or you love fixing bugs and
handling JIRA tickets ;) - hence my remark.

A final thought: if working remotely is on the table, i.e. if you’re not
explicitely looking for a local job and the accompanying social interactions,
maybe you can look at working remotely for a US company. Hit the latest “who’s
hiring” post, look at remote job postings that sound interesting, and contact
the recruiter to see if your profile could interest them and if not what you
would need (degree, portfolio, previous experience) before applying again.

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danieltillett
Can I suggest homemaker. Based on your other posts your wife is the big earner
so make it your full time job to support her as I am sure her job is very
stressful.

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twunde
The main issue with learning on your own is that you won't have the alumni
network nor the degree that signals that you can program. It makes getting
that first and second job in the field, much more difficult. That said, if you
find yourself with an opportunity, take it and learn the rest yourself.
Personally, I would look into bootcamps in Germany as the primary option and
at degrees from German universities as the second option, primarily because
bootcamps will probably get you started in a new career faster. To get you
started on your research take a look at [https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-
major-coding-boot-camps-i...](https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-major-coding-
boot-camps-in-Germany) and then do some research at SwitchUp and CourseReport.
Best of luck!

~~~
mrfusion
There are no signals you can program. That’s why we have brutal, demoralizing
white board interviews.

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jakobegger
If you have the time, I would absolutely go for a degree. As far as I know,
University is free in Germany. If you can get into a CS degree, do it. You
should be able to do a bachelor degree in 3 years, but you can probably do it
faster because you aren't a distracted 20 year old anymore.

Self taught programmers take years to make up for their missing education. If
you have the time to learn from very smart people for a couple of years, I
don't know why you wouldn't do it.

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coldtea
> _I am currently a lawyer in the US. I am moving to Germany in a few months.
> I am committing to a career change, since my spouse earns enough for us to
> live on. I 've had enough of being a lawyer._

Even so, this can easily lead to resentment and arguments, (and also self-
doubt), if the other part doesn't start earning enough soon. So it's not like
"family income" is a solved problem, even if one partner brings in all you
need.

~~~
checkyoursudo
No doubt. However, we are moving to Germany because of my spouse's job.

My lawyering requires a significant amount of court hearings, which I will be
unable to do from Germany. I do very little transactional work that I might be
able to continue in Germany, so a career change is a realistic and logical
move. It just happens to coincide with wanting to make the change as well.

Family income, as long as she keeps her job, is pretty much a solved problem
for us. She makes a lot of money. Waaaaaaay more than me.

I do not need to work necessarily for income but because I want to work. This
has been the case for us for many years now.

But I do appreciate your sentiment.

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rajacombinator
It would be a large mistake to try to become a rank and file programmer at
this point in your career. Unless your goal is to learn enough to be dangerous
so that you can start a legal tech startup. Why not consider shifting your
area of focus in law to something more palatable or relevant to your
interests? Do legal work for startups or join a tech company as general
counsel.

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notanMLawyer
>If you had the time and money, would you do a bootcamp, or a degree, or work
on your own?

Unless I knew for certain that I couldn’t do solo work, or knew for certain
that I couldn’t muster the discipline, I would say “work on your own” in the
beginning.

If I am to take your harmonious financial arrangement at face value, which you
reaffirm in another comment, understand that your situation is probably very
enviable to many. Make the most of it.

You didn’t specify but I assume you expect this situation to hold for at least
a year, maybe two or three years? That’s great. And you already dabbled in ML,
and you “really like it”? Well, its the remote option, but this is what I
would do :

1\. I would brainstorm a project about applying ML to law, or my field of
law[0]. This is not completely unheard of, as I’m sure you’re aware.

2\. If I come up with some holy grail ideas, I would put them aside for later.
I would then try to find something to start with that is very simple, maybe
something that would have helped me day-to-day in my previous lawyer life.
Maybe something much smaller that would be a necessary but not sufficient item
for one of the holy grail ideas, or like I said some small but obvious value
added day-to-day lawyer stuff.

3\. After I decided on the project, I would apply the Amazon way of working
backwards, a. Create the press release: Describe in simple terms what you’re
going to build b. 20 most frequent questions: Answer in clear, simple terms (&
iterate until it is very clear what you’re going to build) c. UX Document: How
are my users going to interact with this d. Keep the above simple, don’t
overdo it.

4\. So you came up with your first project, now you have to skill up. Since
you dabbled in ML maybe you are already familiar with the ML learning angles
people recommend on this site (fast.ai, Coursera etc). I would research and
make a decision which ones to start with first (maybe you’ve already completed
some) and focus on completing them together with all the relevant exercises
etc. In parallel, I would be on the lookout about what I need to learn for the
project and continuously apply what I learn to the project.

5\. Out of necessity, you are probably going to need to dabble in integrating
frontend web and mobile stuff. Research and decide on learning path based on
what concrete things you actually need in your project.

6\. Once you feel you know enough to build the shittiest and dumbest version
of your idea build the shittiest and dumbest version of your idea before
continuing a new online course in your studying plan.

7\. Put your code on the web when you have the shittiest and dumbest version
of your idea working and keeping updating it. I would upload two separate
things as projects a. the software/product that the end user will use that has
everything in it. b. The ML component as a separate project. Don’t let the
frontend stuff detract from the ML stuff. Imagine someone with better web and
mobile skills wanted to use your ML-law work to make something more polished.
They could use this.

8\. Now you have a portfolio, don’t you? You could go on building the next
item on the road to a holy grail, or you could continue iterating on this as
you learn.

9\. Meanwhile, you could start applying with your portfolio for remote work at
AI tech companies targeting law or NLP areas (more general overlapping
domains) , or law firms that are scared of tech who don’t want to be the nokia
or blackberry of law in the future (this is probably the unlikelier of the
two, since this tech would disrupt billable hours). In the former, you would
be the “domain” guy for the tech, in the latter you could be the “tech” guy
for the domain. Your skills and background will be unique.

10\. Alternatively, or in parallel, start selling what you built. Cause looked
at it another way, this is identical to have received seed funding for 1-3
years to start a company.

Sure when you start working with others you may soon feel you’ve missed out on
some fundamentals, but this is what I would do in terms of opportunity cost.
By the end, you will have a unique background and you will be working in a
niche area suited to your background, your weaknesses will matter less. After
this, if I still felt iffy and it still didn't matter if I got a job or not,
then I would consider a online degree through a US institution, but if its a
very good program.

Anyway you asked me what I would do, obviously might not be the best advise
(disclaimer).

[0] assuming doing anything related to law or your field of law doesn’t
instantly fill you with dread or actively demotivate you in whatever you’re
doing. If I hated law, the general outline would still be the same. Coming up
with a project idea that kept me motivated and that I thought would be of use
to others might take a little more time to find. I wouldn’t be able to use my
law background for applying for work for maximum effect, so there would be no
binding narrative between my previous lawyer life and what I’m doing now, that
might make it more difficult to sell myself to potential employers. But with a
portfolio that would matter less.

~~~
checkyoursudo
Thank you for your answer, and the time and detail you put into it. I will
consider it.

Everything that I have learned related to programming, hardware, networks, etc
in the last many years has been on my own. I have run my own law firm for more
than 10 years now. I believe I am capable of self-motivating and being
productive.

But, you know, you never know.

I have also had success in formal academics. Sometimes I feel like it'll
really boil down to picking one option and seeing what happens.

My main concern in wasting a bunch of time by picking an option that won't get
me anywhere, but there's never a guarantee against that anyway.

~~~
wikibob
As an alternative view, I cannot strongly enough suggest to get an academic
degree if you can afford the time and money.

Self-directed learning is ok if that's the best you can do, but having the
structure of an academic setting is absolutely invaluable. You'll immersed in
an environment where those around you are doing the same thing, and the value
from discussing difficult concepts with others is impossible to overstate.

Self-directed learning will put you in a bubble of the overhyped web
technologies. What is extremely hard to understand from the outside is that
there's an ENORMOUS hidden level of much more interesting problems and work in
fundamental engineering. But it doesn't get discussed online much, because
it's more difficult to get into, and there's no point arguing with people
online when they don't have the background to participate.

Happy to discuss my thoughts further if you have questions

~~~
checkyoursudo
My instinct is to get a degree, because that's what I know. I've gone to
school for four of them in my life, after all.

There are some interesting programs around. I don't think I will qualify for a
masters program yet, so where do I look at bachelors degrees?

In Germany, I think they are all in German, which means improving my German
quite a bit (I don't think my level of proficiency is sufficient).

I have looked at a few post-baccalaureate online degrees, where if you already
have a BA/BS then you just complete the major coursework requirements and they
grant you a degree. That is definitely interesting, but it's sometimes hard to
judge the quality of the institutions or what their degree would actually get
me.

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kjksf
Lambda School

