
Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' - wolfgke
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/26/microsoft_clarifies_upgrade_trick/
======
algorias
Recently my mom ended up with windows 10, despite not intending to upgrade. No
idea how it exactly happened.

Anyway, as a result all her .docx files got associated with microsoft office
(yes, during the upgrade windows "forgot" her preference for libreoffice) and
to add insult to injury, the files wouldn't even _open_ , instead whenever she
double clicked one of them she'd get an ad urging her to buy an office 365
subscription to allow her to see her own fucking files.

I'm done with Microsoft, forever. No matter what they do, I will never trust
them again.

~~~
m_fayer
Same happened to my mom just yesterday. My mom happens to be an anxious 75
year old woman who takes a long time to acclimate to anything new on her
computer, and also relies on said computer for several critical areas of her
life.

She called me in a panic from 6 timezones away, and I had to drop what I was
doing and spend a good half a day walking her through the various transition
and setup steps. Every 30 minutes she would plaintively ask me why she had to
do this - she was perfectly happy with what she had and had no interest in
anything new. Every time she asked and I had no good answer, vague thoughts
that included the words "class" and "action" swam through my head.

~~~
pca
How many of the hundreds of millions of people using Windows computers are
affected like this that don't have someone tech-savy to ask for help? There's
no possible way Microsoft didn't think of this scenario, which can only mean
that they simply do not care.

~~~
marak830
I am certainly in agreement. From what I can see they used social engineering
for a few months, then dark patterned it so users would install. (Im referring
to users being slowly trained to close the window saying upgrade, then that
same click agreeing and installing).

Which in my opinion is exactly that. Social engineering to get them use to it
(same action over and over), and dark pattern (doing something do so they
would agree to something they didn't necessarily want to).

Very scummy in my opinion. I wish I could change but I am very much stuck on
Windows (my only product uses windows voice recognition engine. . . .I don't
have the knowledge to wrote my own).

Edit: typo

------
Piskvorrr
Windows Nein upgrade _is_ malware, IMNSHO.

\- Uses intentionally confusing UI to trick users into installing ("upgrade
now or upgrade later?" \- note the absence of "do not upgrade")

\- IMSHNO installs without user consent (closing a "upgrade now?" window
counts as "no" anywhere, _including MSFT UX Guidelines_ , hello there
hypocrisy)

\- breaks existing applications (not every box is just Firefox+LibreOffice:
specialized apps and drivers do not work well in WinX)

\- while the downgrade ("better to worse" is never an upgrade) runs, you can't
use your device ("preparing for blahblah, wait.")

\- erases (or at best hides) user data ("yeah well we just put it all in this
completely different folder without notice, it's not like you need your
documents, right?")

\- is very difficult to revert

\- phones home (again, MS claims there is user consent. So do all the malware
writers; I don't think so.)

Each and every of these are traits commonly associated with malware; thank God
for GWX Control Panel.

(To be fair, pre-installed Windows 10 is usable, better than Vista even - but
breaking working installs of W7 for no obvious reason is a big no-no)

~~~
TeMPOraL
I generally agree, but I wouldn't necessarily call Win10 a downgrade - it's
definitely better than 8 (I would think twice about upgrading 7 as having Win7
means that you likely have a pretty old hardware).

I honestly don't understand what's going on. This looks like one of the most
idiotic thing an IT company has ever done, and Microsoft doesn't care. They
don't even try to explain it. And they fucked up big time - rarely any kind of
scandal from the computing world reaches the general public, but this one did.
I've been asked by random people for advice on whether or not to upgrade;
people seem to know Win10 is "evil" and are annoyed by nagging.

~~~
ido
Win 7 became available starting at late 2009 and was popular well after 8 came
out, I would suspect most computers that sold with it preinstalled would have
no problem running 10.

Does 10 even have higher system requirements than 7?

~~~
kmch
They just increased them. You now need 2GB for the 32-bit version of Win10,
iirc. That's the only change, though.

~~~
newjersey
What would someone with 2GB memory do with a computer? State at the desktop?
Once you start opening tabs, Firefox and Chrome can easily take up 4GB memory
if available.

~~~
tehbeard
Isn't it only 1.5GB that'd be left for user apps? I seem to recall 32-bit
windows only had 3.5GB total accessible for some reason.

~~~
ido
32bits can only address max 4gb ram and I think video ram was counted for or
some other overhead. With 2gb the 32bit maximum should have no effect.

------
sambe
Microsoft is simultaneously more open than ever (dev-related) and acting just
like the 90s (consumer-related). So strange, Windows 10 is pretty nice but
they risk destroying reputation with spyware and deceit. I am assuming they
are desperate to get people onto the continuous upgrade train to avoid the
Windows XP situation occur inn again.

~~~
cm2187
That's being nice to Microsoft.

Another way to see it is that they want to monetize their users by taking a
cut of the software installed with the app store, with bing integrated in the
OS, and with ads being served directly in the OS.

And they care more about monetizing their users than their users privacy or
interest.

~~~
secoif
> "…they care more about monetizing their users than their users privacy or
> interest."

Sadly this is true for all but a handful of companies.

------
kmfrk
I've ended up installing GWX Control Panel to thwart this BS:
[http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/](http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/).

Feel all sorts of ridiculous for having to do so, especially from a security
perspective, but here we are.

\--

I've read that one way to go about this is to create a disk image, upgrade to
W10, and then restoring from your disk image back to whatever your current
version is.

This way, you can also install W10 past the deadline of ultimo July - but
Windows might continue nagging you in the inteim.

Haven't tried it, but at least you'll save the potential $100 if you intend to
upgrade down the line.

~~~
ddeck
Keep in mind that the prior windows key/OS combination may be invalidated by
MS during (or at any point after) this process, leading them to treat a
running instance of the prior OS as a pirated version.

~~~
cmdrfred
I'm counting on it. When all this began I replaced my legit Windows 7 copy
with a pirated one because it isn't eligible for the 'Windows 10 upgrade'.

------
powpowpao
Equally as bad is OSX. Decided to downgrade from El Capitan to Mountain Lion
because I've a 2012 machine and my GPU blew under El Capitan. Now i can't
access my iPad 2 Air because it's forcing me to upgrade iTunes and the only
way to do that is to update back to El Capitan.

I have to commit the dirtiest, skankiest, filthiest trick by using Windows to
access my iPad now.

~~~
oceanswave
You don't need to connect to any device to update your iPad OTA updates have
been standard for a reeeaaaallly long time now

~~~
powpowpao
Yes, don't need to connect to update, but if you want to transfer music,
movies, photos in bulk to the iPad that isn't on iCloud or whatever, then no
joy.

------
cm3
Isn't it funny that Microsoft had this whole Scroogle campaign and now they're
doing exactly that but much worse because they slip stuff you disable/removed
back in via updates and updates cannot be selectively ignored/disabled in
Windows 10 anymore?

~~~
tdkl
Someone on a more popular tech site needs to pull this out and write a piece
about it (Verge, Ars).

------
1ris
The line to "unauthorised computer access" has be crossed several times.

Usually investigators are overzealous with prosecuting this crime, but i doubt
anybody will neven ever start investigations against microsoft.

~~~
ryanl0l
If you really feel that way, why do you not file a police report then?

~~~
1ris
As i'm not a windows user this is not worth my time and i probably couldn't
even file a report.

But the real reason why i don't is that i'm not a US citizen and my local
"hacking" laws are less strict.

------
O3d
The worst thing about it for me is that I have two computers not compatible
with windows 10 (super old graphics cards). Yet the upgrade prompt continues
to appear.

I know the machines aren't compatible because I upgraded one using the nagging
prompt and... kaboom.

~~~
vt240
Why don't you roll back the the patch. Just search google for the KB number
and uninstall. Then go into windows update and hide it. I did this on a couple
of systems at work. _edit_ : oops, I missed someone already posted it below.

~~~
Piskvorrr
And then MS _silently reenables this KB_. Yup. About 6 times so far.

~~~
vt240
Strange, I have not had that come up yet. Maybe I have not installed the
updates which cause it to auto re-enable yet :-)

------
nmalaguti
I find all of the outrage over this to be completely overblown. Everyone
complains that OS upgrades are too difficult and so they desperately try to
avoid them. This results in running 7 year old code that is going to stop
being supported in a few short years.

Windows 10 is a _free_ upgrade to a an operating system that will be supported
for much longer than 7. Also, Windows has adopted a new release cycle that
eschews long monolithic upgrades for a more continuous and easy to manage
upgrade process. This may be the last time you need to hunker down and do a
painful upgrade.

I empathize with non-technical users for whom this is a trying experience, but
literally every other vendor gets a free pass because you replace your phone
every few years, or you've adjusted to a yearly upgrade cycle that is pretty
painless.

I feel like Microsoft is trying to give people what they want, and all they
get in return is kicking and screaming. Until in a few years when they stop
supporting older versions of Windows and your Mom gets infected with
Randsomware. Then you'll still blame Microsoft, and won't be able to believe
that they want to charge you $100 for the privilege of getting on a supported
OS.

~~~
na85
>I feel like Microsoft is trying to give people what they want, and all they
get in return is kicking and screaming.

They're not giving me what I want. Windows 10 isn't what I want.

We wanted Windows 7 with modernizations, not Windows 8.1 with more spyware
baked in.

>Until in a few years when they stop supporting older versions of Windows and
your Mom gets infected with Randsomware. Then you'll still blame Microsoft,
and won't be able to believe that they want to charge you $100 for the
privilege of getting on a supported OS.

What planet do you live on where "supported" means "immune to malware"?

~~~
WorldMaker
«We wanted Windows 7 with modernizations, not Windows 8.1 with more spyware
baked in.»

Hahaha. I wanted Windows 10 to be an upgrade from Windows 8.1 not a downgrade
to Windows 7.8. Windows 10 is absolutely a "Windows 7 with modernizations". It
lost a lot of Windows 8's charm (literally as well as figuratively) due to
complaints from the same vocal crowd that is whining about "spyware".
Microsoft will never make y'all happy, but it's still trying, while meanwhile
y'all will keep coming up with excuses why Microsoft is the devil and Windows
n-2 was really the peak of what Windows should ever aspire to be.

(That said, I do really like Windows 10 and even if I'm disappointed it didn't
carry through some of the things I really liked about Windows 8.1, I'd still
rather use Windows 10 than Windows < 10.)

------
mclemme
A few years ago there was usually a huge "don't change my facebook" uproar
every time facebook changed the functionality or layout of the site. Yet every
time a change was implemented, a few weeks went by and most people forgot it
ever changed and loved the new layout and/or functionality.

Facebook could and can do that because they own facebook, and you are the
product (being sold to marketers, etc.)

I think people are slowly realizing that the situation is the same with
Windows, there's always been complaints when new Windows versions came out,
Win98 => ME => 2k => XP => Vista => 7 => 8 => 10\. But usually people only
experienced the switch whenever they got a new computer with a newer version
of Windows on it.

Edit: [http://www.allwelike.com/wp-
content/uploads/2011/09/26-Faceb...](http://www.allwelike.com/wp-
content/uploads/2011/09/26-Facebook.jpg)

~~~
stdclass
There is an important difference between a new feature on a social network and
a whole new OS. Many people have software and/or drivers installed that won't
work on a newer OS.

~~~
mclemme
I agree! I just think Microsoft either has not taken into account the possible
backlash from breaking people's printers, scanners, webcams, programs, etc. or
maybe they have taken it into account and decided the backlash was worth the
increased Win10 marketshare.

~~~
beagle3
Backlash? It will take years for sales to be affected (the general population
cannot switch to Mac/Linux in less time) and the courts won't lift a finger.

------
basicplus2
as far as I know for Windows 7 and 8

uninstall and block these updates to stop WX nag and auto install

WX related - KB 3035583 WX related - KB 3150513

uninstall and block these updates to stop Windows spyware

Spyware - KB 3068708 Spyware - KB 3022345 Spyware - KB 3075249 Spyware - KB
3080149 Spyware - KB 3146449

~~~
ordinary
Keep in mind that you have to be vigilant every time you install updates.
Microsoft can (and often does) release multiple versions of updates, and it
appears the ignore flag is not preserved between versions.

~~~
frou_dh
The fact it still tries to peddle me _SILVERLIGHT_ despite that getting "Hide
Update"d every time it's ever been offered makes me think that (separate from
W10-related strategic malice) there's also basic incompetence in the way
Windows Update is designed/operated. I don't believe it's in MS's current
interest to actively promote Silverlight and yet there it is again and again.

~~~
rleigh
It's the Windows update system being a horrible mess instead of a proper
package manager. Each time you hide it, what you get is apparently a new
update with the same name. If you hide it enough times, you eventually hide
every available update and it won't reappear (at least, until they issue a new
one). Really annoying!

------
frik
This story lasted only 4 hours on HN frontpage, despite a lot of interest and
engagement.

* Constant starting/shuttering of their mobile OS offerings.

* Using sock puppets, advertorials and other shady methods to shape opinion.

* Disregarding user privacy in Windows 10 (and extending that to Windows 7/8 via security updates)

* Forcing users of Windows 7/8 to update to Windows 10. It's basically malware at this stage.

~~~
dogma1138
Maybe because every day a rant about this is being posted?

------
shultays
What does pressing esc key do? It usually has same functionality as pressing X
button right? If pressing esc installs windows 10 too I am speechless

~~~
pca
It's more of a notification than a question dialogue. It tells you that
Windows 10 is a "recommended update" now (instead of optional which it was
before). That means no matter how you close the window, now you'll get the
update unless you actively disable it in time.

------
smcl
I love the "it's worked like this for months" quote. Yeh, you silently
switched the behaviour for a single case a couple of months ago in an feature
people rarely use. How could anyone be upset about that?

------
transpy
How come there is no legislation that limits what software corporations are
allowed to do? Just imagine if regular companies that deal with physical stuff
were allowed to do the same. It's like if they broke into your house to
replace or 'upgrade' your stuff without your consent. Companies can literally
break into people's homes and change stuff.

------
executesorder66
To remove all of MS's nagware and spyware on Win7 and 8 use this:
[https://github.com/th3power/aegis-
voat#aegisvoat](https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat#aegisvoat)

------
vmateixeira
Just in case anyone may be interested..
[https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows](https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows)

------
dhimes
A bit OT: Is there a reliable way to keep from sending the keystrokes back to
the MS servers?

------
tgb
Okay Microsoft gets a ton of hate for the, but the standard for today is
software that automatically updates and often even one cannot control update
at all since the software resides in the cloud. Maybe this is the most
egregious case so far, maybe it isn't, but it's clear that we'll be seeing a
lot more of this in the future, not just from Microsoft.

~~~
Piskvorrr
Does that upgrade in the cloud result in nonfunctional computers? QED.

~~~
Sacho
That's semantics. If my work depends on software that broke after an automatic
upgrade, then the computer is "nonfunctional" to me. Alternatively, your
computer isn't nonfunctional because Microsoft force-installed Windows 10 on
it - you can still remove Windows and install something else.

I think it was foolhardy of Microsoft to "force" the update(or more aptly,
trick people into updating) because it would be practically impossible to
verify that the upgrade would go smoothly on all machines. However, I don't
see their action as notably different from any other essential software I
install on my computer.

~~~
Piskvorrr
What _is_ notably different is the automated nature of the install: I want to
install essential upgrades during scheduled downtime, not meddle with reverts
during a working-day rush hour when the computer is supposed to be doing
something useful (i.e. people depend on the workstation to be up so they can
do their jobs, and other people depend on that, etc.) _This_ is the huge
f-ckup.

------
baku-fr
As I see it, the popup is merely a notification that the upgrade has been
scheduled. Why not taking the time to read it and cancel the upgrade? It's
been like that for years (remember "the computer will restart in 10 minutes"
popup from Win7?)

