
Can e-bikes revolutionise long-distance commuting? - jseliger
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/14/e-bikes-long-distance-commuting-speed-pedelec-electric-cycles
======
matt_wulfeck
Daily bike commuter here. It's not a technological breakthrough that I'm
waiting for. We really need infrastructure to catch up to bicycles.

It's still very dangerous to bike in Silicon Valley. Cars are generally bike-
hostile and sharing the roads with them is dangerous. Not only that, but bike
lanes are often just a symbol painted on the road. We need infrastructure that
separates bikers from the cars.

Also, people just simply need to stop driving so dangerously.

~~~
andy_ppp
In London they have built some amazing cycle super highways which are great to
cycle on, however you can go incredibly fast and some people do - I've seen
three ambulances in a week along there (Embankment) recently scraping up
people off the road. It's safer than being with cars and lorries but
pedestrians seem to not look and walk into the cycle lane because bikes are
pretty silent... anyway I do agree with cycle lanes but maybe we need to think
through pedestrians and speed as well...

~~~
tarpherder
Pedestrians need to learn to expect bikes on those lanes. I don't know what
they look like but they should stand out as bicycle lanes to anyone on the
road. Also, cyclists should be careful just like regular drivers and adjust
their speed to their environment. If you were raised in The Netherlands you
would know very well to check for both cars and bicycles when crossing
anything.

~~~
BerislavLopac
> I don't know what they look like

Ideally like
[http://s3.amazonaws.com/lcc_production_bucket/files/8920/in_...](http://s3.amazonaws.com/lcc_production_bucket/files/8920/in_content.jpg)
but in many places they're more like
[http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/48375000/jpg...](http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/48375000/jpg/_48375932_img_1553.jpg)

~~~
tarpherder
The first is pretty good I'd say.

That second shot shows nicely why that particular solution doesn't work;
cyclists take to the sidewalk as the road is too crowded and dangerous.

~~~
BerislavLopac
Exactly. I chose both photos carefully; the first one does look okay indeed,
but note the location of the bus stop. Unfortunately pedestrians (especially
tourists; we're talking about central London here) often don't realise there
are fast moving vehicles on that blue strip.

------
intrasight
Interesting topic. However, the contents of the article have nearly nothing to
do with the title unfortunately. The article is about one dude who uses an
e-bike on a bike path - which I agree should not be allowed if it exceeds some
speed limit. The article should have been about replacing mopeds with e-bikes,
or the title should have been "What is the correct speed limit for e-bikes on
bike paths?"

Ideally, the law would set that speed limit to ~20mph since that is what a
person pedaling can readily achieve.

~~~
nickonline
20mph is slow - Fit cyclists would be able to keep up with him.

My cycle to work this morning had a top speed of 40kmph (24mph). I was feeling
particularly slow this morning and am only just getting back into cycling. I
expect that soon I'll be quite a bit faster.

~~~
tarpherder
40kmph is actually very fast compared to the average cyclist. Fast enough that
I would consider it reckless if done in heavy (cycling) traffic.

But you highlight the issue nicely; bikes are not self-powered, it depends on
the human. Even with e-bikes this is true, most of them will only support the
rider and have been made not to power the bike all by itself. So how to
regulate that? Perhaps a good old speed limit is all that is really needed.

~~~
intrasight
Agreed. Enforcement is a challenge however. Bikes don't have license plates.

~~~
tarpherder
True, but the police can ride bikes, especially in cities where the speed
limit will matter most.

------
tribby
I just looked up the laws around speed in California bike lanes and it looks
like as long as you wear a helmet you can go 28MPH in Class II bike lines (the
kind that are marked on the street, not a "bike path," which is class 1). I
would have guessed much slower. 28MPH is pretty fast between train stations if
you have none of the congestion associated with automobile traffic. It's
really not a bad idea.

As a regular old cyclist I could imagine thinking e-bikers were assholes for
using my class II bike lines if there were many more of them on the road,
though. I guess if ebikes ever catch on, there will be some growing pains.

~~~
Animats
There was heavy lobbying over that.

There's a continuum of two wheeled vehicles from a kid's BMX bike to a Harley.
There has to be an arbitrary cutoff on how much vehicle you can use on a bike
path.

Here's what the top end in electric bikes looks like.[1] Out-accelerates a
motorcycle. Suitable for dirt-biking. $8000. That has far more performance
than a 50cc moped from Wal-Mart for $249.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A65dt-
zLdSw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A65dt-zLdSw)

~~~
asimuvPR
8,300 Euros for the model you linked to. Anything in the $500 range?

~~~
bigiain
The mountain bike you've got sitting in the garage (or a $50 eBay/CraigsList
special) and something like this:

[https://www.aliexpress.com/item/24V-36V-500W-26-Rear-
Wheel-E...](https://www.aliexpress.com/item/24V-36V-500W-26-Rear-Wheel-Ebike-
Conversion-Kit-with-Sine-Wave-Controller-LCD3/32472239378.html)

Plus an hour or so with some spanners and zipties, gets you one of these:

[https://flic.kr/p/MjzMDN](https://flic.kr/p/MjzMDN)

For well under $500. (I think including the battery and the bike, that one
owes me under $300.)

~~~
asimuvPR
Not bad. Id rather build it myself with a kit like the one you linked. How
reliable are these kits?

~~~
bigiain
That one's 2 years old now (just over), and the power system is now onto it's
second cheapo mountain bike (that one had the chain slip off the rear
sprockets when the gears were badly adjusted, which damaged the spokes, which
later broke. It ended up being less hassle buying a new bike than repairing
the wheel). I do a 16km round trip on it 3 times a week or so (less during
winter, it's fun to ride, but _way_ less fun in the rain).

I guess I should mention you'll also need a charger capable of charging your
chosen battery (I already had two, so I don't factor in the cost of that -
you'd be looking at ~$50 or so at the bottom end there...)

~~~
Animats
E-bike fires from bad lithium batteries or bad chargers are a problem. Same
problem as hoverboards. Boosted Skateboards went with LiFePO4 batteries, which
have lower energy density and cost more, but don't catch fire or blow up, even
if punctured with a nail. Some e-bikes use LiFeP04 chemistry, some use LiPo,
some use Li-ion. Go with LiFePO4 and look for UL approval on the charger.

Pedego had to recall 5,000 e-bikes after battery fires.[1] There have been
some major fires at e-bike shops.

[1] [http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2015/Pedego-Recalls-
Electric-...](http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2015/Pedego-Recalls-Electric-
Bicycle-Batteries/)

~~~
bigiain
Sure - I've flown these kinds of batteries into the ground from great heights
doing dumb stuff with drones/quadcopters/modelaircraft - and abused them
pretty badly while charging. I've occasionally had Galaxy Tab 7 style
"incidents", and take suitable precautions given my experience with the risks.

The 7 cell 5800mAHr batteries I use on the bike are the biggest and most
dangerous ones I use - and I do treat them with respect. I charge them in the
middle of the concrete floor of my garage, inside a besser block, at least
1.5m from anything valuable or flammable. I dispose of them if they go puffy
(I've sent two off the the e-waste/battery-recycling in two years - one of
them I knew I'd let run down way too far when using it elsewhere, down under
19V which the bike's controller wouldn't ever do (it cuts out at 22V) and it
never managed a good charge again, the other I'd been quick charging
occasionally (although not really fast enough to explain the shortened
lifespan - I can only _just_ hit 2C charge rates with my charger, the battery
_should_ be good up to 5C really...))

If you don't know (or want to learn) the risks, or if you're less risk averse
(or less able to mitigate the risks due to not having suitable space to let a
lipo fire burn itself out) LiFePO4 is a slightly heavier but much safer
battery chemistry. I _almost_ got hold of a bunch of cells from a crashed
Tesla's battery pack a while back - they'd make a nice ebike power supply. If
I can get my hands of enough of them at a reasonable price, I'm planning on
electrifying one of my motorcycles with 30+KW of electric power...

~~~
Animats
Yes, if you take hazardous-material precautions you can handle hazardous
materials. I do machine shop work; I get that. But people are going to bring
their e-bikes to the office and charge them indoors. "Occasionally catches on
fire" is unacceptable for that usage.

------
neves
Bike commuter here. Hope I never find one of these in my bike lane. If I'm
pedaling hard, I go a little over 30km/h, my body is alert, full of
adrenaline, and I'll get tired 20min latter. In an electric bike, you can go
at this speed talking in your phone and eating something. Your heavy battery
also will increase your inertia. It is really dangerous.

If you want to increase bike use, build more showers at the workplaces.

~~~
terravion
As a bicycle commuter, I would love to see more people doing anything that
isn't cars and would glad share bicycle infrastructure with these guys. The
more drivers see us, the more they look. Their speed differential is no more
than what you or I have with a lot of casual cyclists, and the electric
battery doesn't weigh more than a fully loaded backpack.

Is the real issue that they aren't 'real' cyclists and didn't earn it?

~~~
neves
I'm worried with pedestrians, not with me.

------
mikekchar
Lot's of e-bikes in Japan. The only problem, from a powered-commute
perspective is that they have a graded assist limit. I think between 12 and 20
kph, the assist gradually decreases. At 12 kph you have 100% assist and you
don't have to pedal. It then declines until at 20 kph it's all you. (I don't
really remember the actual numbers, but those are pretty close).

The problem is that 20 kph is _really_ slow. Even into the steady headwinds we
have on the coast here, I never travel below this speed, so an e-bike just
means a heavy bike for me :-) However, they have revolutionised transportation
for the elderly in the countryside. In my town, almost everybody has one. It's
really great because it gets people outside and going to shops, etc.

There are now a few electric scooters (classed differently in Japan than
bikes). These have a 30 kmh legal speed limit, but they are not physically
limited (many, many people drive over the speed limit on these). You need a
drivers license to drive these (there is also a special scooter license you
can apply for which is easier to get than a general purpose drivers license).

The last category is motorcycle and I haven't seen any electric ones on the
road yet, but I'm sure it's a matter of time. Honestly I'd love something like
this for going places I wouldn't want to go on my bicycle.

As much as I find it annoying, the categorisation makes a lot of sense to me.
Limit unlicensed transport to minor assist only. Put a speed limit on full
assist and require a license. Require a full motorcycle license on general
transportation that is intended to travel at highway speeds. It's a bit
strange to legally be allowed to ride my bike at 40+ kph just because I'm able
to do so, though... I just hope nobody changes that law ;-)

------
michaelwww
I said it would a couple of months ago and some interesting discussion was
had. Sharing for the record:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12153802](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12153802)

~~~
jvoorhis
Which have you got?

~~~
michaelwww
I bought a regular city bike (Townie) and then found a shop that converted it
with a generic kit. The price of the Li-Ion battery has dropped quite a bit
since I last checked [1], might be time for a backup to extend my ride. I
don't seem to bother the non-electric riders in the bike lane since I mostly
go with the flow. Sometimes I'll pass them going uphill, but that doesn't
happen too often.

[1] [http://www.batteryspace.com/custom-li-
ion-18650-battery-29-6...](http://www.batteryspace.com/custom-li-
ion-18650-battery-29-6v-5-2-ah-154-wh-rechargeable-battery.aspx)

------
cowardlydragon
If ebikes aren't of the same mass / kinetic energy as a moped, they shouldn't
be classified the same.

Ebikes have the potential to revolutionize transportation in a positive way.
Less infrastructure, more dense movement, opens biking to more people with
less developed cardiovascular ability.

If I could do 22-25 mph / 35-40kph sustained with a rain suit on, I can beat
lots of rush hour car routes, with an output of 10-15mph done by myself, and
towing/carrying 20 pounds of stuff, a LOT of car trips become unnecessary.

------
fractalwrench
The main advantage of an e-bike is that it gives the rider confidence to go
further than they typically would. I have been cycling to work a lot more
often after buying a pedal-assist e-bike, because I no longer dread struggling
up a large hill at the end of the day. Increased acceleration also means
you're also less likely to hold up cars when stopping and starting at traffic
lights - making you feel like someone who should be on the road, rather than a
slow nuisance. You can also choose how much of an assist you want depending on
how lazy you're feeling.

E-bikes are a bit too expensive for general adoption, but I wouldn't be
surprised if they become much more common over the next few years.

------
michaelwww
Here's a pricelist in the U.S. for those interested [1] (I'm not associated
with anyone selling bikes) A word of caution: make sure you get back tire
spokes the can take your weight, the expected bumpiness of the trails in your
area, and the power of the motor on the back wheel hub driving you forward. I
blew out all the spokes on my back tire and had to get extra heavy-duty
replacements.

[http://www.electric-bikes.com/bikes/index.html](http://www.electric-
bikes.com/bikes/index.html)

------
Slimbo
Another article focusing on Dutch cycling as some kind of trend indicator, but
not really applicable anywhere else. Holland is flat with mild weather. Bikes
are already popular and a good infrastructure and legal system in place to
support it before ebikes came along. Even with Ebikes, a cold climate and a
hilly landscape will put a lot of people off.

------
cpprototypes
I looked at ebikes a few months ago and it's still too expensive. Even the
kits for converting a regular bike was almost the price of an ebike. Is it
this expensive in the rest of thr world? If not, why is it so expensive here,
why isn't someone just importing it and selling it for much cheaper?

~~~
tarpherder
Where is here for you? In The Netherlands, an e-bike costs you about 1300 EUR.
Not cheap for a bike but not overly expensive either, there are more expensive
non-e-bikes that are regularly bought.

------
Freestyler_3
The license is not a problem (in the Netherlands)if you already have your
drivers license for a car. You simply already have it for the moped type
vehicles.

------
jrockway
Biggest problem with bike commuting is that bikes don't balance when stopped
like cars do. This means you either have to idly stand around at traffic
lights (which pedestrians never do, they just go for it), or you have to
illegally run the light (which is what everyone except cars do, but you can
still get a ticket for it).

Of course, trikes are goofy and don't corner, so there is no real solution
here except bike paths designed like interstate highways. One can dream.

~~~
flukus
There's also slowing down to a crawl when approaching the light and learning
how to balance on a stopped bike. The later is something I've never mastered.

~~~
dingaling
> and learning how to balance on a stopped bike

There are a couple of techniques, but both actually require a small amount of
forward movement so if it's a long delay then you do creep closer to the car
ahead.

But neither is actually necessary; I generally prefer to declip one foot and
stick it on the ground as that is quicker and safer particularly when wearing
a backpack or conveying a child-seat, since that puts the CoG quite high. But
the fact that I had to come to a halt indicates that I didn't correctly manage
the approach and I thereby wasted energy.

And please change-down gears as you approach the light. As a fellow cyclist
it's frustrating to be stuck behind other cyclists moving-off slowly as they
"pedal through molasses" because they're still in a high gear. It annoys
drivers, too.

------
GoToRO
What bike model is he using?

------
mc32
I would say if I had to choose between an electric scooter and an electric
bike for _commuting_ I'd choose the electric scooter. It's more comfortable,
can attain higher speeds and can also have a cargo basket (due to scooter
weight, the basket doesn't upset the balance as much) and can carry a
passenger too.

Another convenience in the form factor, to add, stopping and starting do not
involve dismounting and remounting, just leg down, leg back up --this means
fewer riders running lights or stop signs.

So, if something two wheeled would take over, I'd say the electric scooter
rather than the electric bicycle. Now, if you are looking to get a workout
during your commute, ok, a pedal bike is better, you have not choice but to
pedal.

~~~
mjmahone17
With a big enough increase in bike paths, this calculation may differ: going
slow enough to be allowed on a bike path, while still being able to split
lanes when needed, could be a huge advantage. Additionally, if you live
somewhere that is space constrained (like a small apartment without parking)
an electric bike is significantly easier to find space for.

It basically boils down to: do you have the storage space for a small car, and
just want faster highway and street commutes? A scooter makes sense. Do you
have to bring it up an elevator or want to use rail trails? E-bike all the
way.

~~~
r00fus
As a car commuter who's seen a lot of accidents, quite a few are (probably
newbie) motorcyclists who don't know how to split lanes (3 of the 6 I've seen
in the past 4 years).

Also, sharing the road with cars means breathing their exhaust. Count me in
for the e-bike takeover.

~~~
ygra
The bike path I'm using to commute every day is shared with scooters. I'd
rather take car exhaust, to be honest (although I'm not suicidal enough to
take up with cars going 100 km/h on the road next to it). Every time I'm
overtaken by a scooter I'm coughing the next minute or so while having to slow
down to about 10 km/h.

On the other hand, people are probably much more likely to switch from a
scooter to an e-bike than from a car, simply because the convenience factor is
very similar. And winter is coming right now, which luckily takes scooters
away too, for some reason :)

