
Fatal Tesla crash and battery pack issues for First Responders [video] - 6stringmerc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrT5MA_iTXs
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dogma1138
Heh...

>Another important difference between batteries and gas is that emergency
workers (and anyone who's involved in the accident) can identify when the gas
is leaking out, it's also much easier to stop the gas from catching on fire as
wetting the vehicle or using other fire retardants will usually prevent the
gas from catching fire. On the other hand you can have an internally shorted
battery pack which can catch fire or explode at any moment and you would have
no clue that it can happen.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11874737](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11874737)

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jcpham
FWIW as a volunteer first responder, magnesium fires (that's what the dash is
made from these days in most of your vehicles, electric or non) are extremely
dangerous to spray water on. It goes boom, it shoots sparks, it's frightening
to witness.

I'd recommend a dry fire extinguisher or potentially a foaming agent, but the
last thing you want to do if you value your life is send burning white hot
magnesium embers flying with a high pressure water hose.

Tesla's mileage must vary obviously or they've never sprayed water on a
magnesium fire.

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serg_chernata
The cars were given a really high safety rating. That makes me assume that the
speed and severity of this collision far exceeded those used in testing. If
that's the case, nothing can save your life in that situation.

~~~
shawn-butler
I think the point of the story is that the response is delayed by the
increased complexity of containing a fire in an ev-crash compared to that of a
ice-crash.

Tesla maintains training guides for first responders:
[https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders](https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders)

~~~
6stringmerc
Yeah I look at it more as a learning opportunity. Nothing inherently wrong
with something having a catastrophic failure by way of user error, I mean,
speaking from a safety expectations standpoint.

I think helping more departments get educated on protocols will continue to
benefit EV adoption. Not just Tesla.

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bArray
Could replace the batteries with fuel and we'd have the same story, I've seen
some horrific car fires from conventional combustion engines.

You're always driving around with a lot of energy - when it all gets released
at once people die.

~~~
admax88q
> I've seen some horrific car fires from conventional combustion engines.

Yay anecdotes! The real question is whether or not battery fires are harder to
put out than gasoline fires.

The current recommended practice for a lithium ion battery fire is to let the
fire burn itself out...

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Declanomous
That's all well and good if the fire takes place on a normal road, but that
seems extremely dangerous if the fire takes place in a tunnel or on/under a
bridge. Are we going to need autonomous vehicles to drag burning cars out of
tunnels so they don't cause structural damage?

Not trying to knock electric cars, I'm a huge proponent of them, I just am not
a fan of hand-waving about safety. Vehicles are probably the most destructive
thing most people own. You can literally cause tens of millions of dollars in
damage with a car merely through negligence. Pretty hard to do that with
anything else normal people have access to.

~~~
bArray
>Are we going to need autonomous vehicles to drag burning cars out of tunnels
so they don't cause structural damage?

Even then, I imagine a lot of damage being done extremely quickly. I think the
way forward is with damage limitation when crashes eventually happen.

>Vehicles are probably the most destructive thing most people own. You can
literally cause tens of millions of dollars in damage with a car merely
through negligence. Pretty hard to do that with anything else normal people
have access to.

Ever seen an old person forget they left the gas cooker on? But sure, with
great power comes great responsibility. I can see automotive law becoming
stricter as a result given the damage that can be done.

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michaelgrafl
Can a firefighter explain to me how this crash would have been different if it
had happened in a Maserati? Because otherwise there is no story here, except
that weird, horrible accidents now happen with electric cars, too.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Isn't it because LiOn batteries have their oxidizer in them? So its like jet
fuel or something - fuel and liquid oxygen mixed can't be 'put out'. Neither
can battery fires. They have to burn to exhaustion.

~~~
Retric
You can just use water to extinguish LiOn fires.
[http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/safety_concerns_w...](http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/safety_concerns_with_li_ion)

"Lithium-ion batteries contain little lithium metal and in case of a fire they
can be dowsed with water. Only lithium-metal batteries require a Class D fire
extinguisher."

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Firefighters say in no uncertain terms that water should never be used. Also
this site claims only foam extinguishers should be used:

[http://venturaaerospace.com/news/suppressing-lithium-ion-
bat...](http://venturaaerospace.com/news/suppressing-lithium-ion-battery-
fires/)

~~~
bmh_ca
From Tessla's first-responder guide:

> If the high voltage battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is
> bent, twisted, cracked, or breached in any way, use large amounts of water
> to cool the battery. DO NOT extinguish with a small amount of water. Always
> establish or request an additional water supply.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
'large amounts' is probably an effort to cool the rest of the pack and prevent
the fire spreading. Not a way to actually put out the cells already on fire?

~~~
Retric
Remove enough heat and fires stop. The geometry of battery packs may make this
difficult, but at a minimum it can prevent secondary fires.

PS: However, simply letting a wretched car burn is generally safe and the car
is already totaled so there is little reason to mess with it.

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jstx
Seems strange that there is no mention of the purported significance of the
passengers. Were they never confirmed?

[http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/2-killed-in-
fi...](http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/2-killed-in-fiery-crash-
near-downtown-indy)

