
How to avoid Amazon: guide to online shopping - Aaronmacaron
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/27/how-to-avoid-amazon-the-definitive-guide-to-online-shopping-without-the-retail-titan
======
rv-de
I haven't bought from Amazon in about three years. And I'm ordering online
quite a lot. Only this month: a bike (boc24.de), bike equipment (nanobike.de),
several books (booklooker.de, medimops.de, thalia.de, hugendubel.de), a Whisky
(mcgin.de), a pizza stone (otto.de), USB microskope (digitalo.de) ...

No problem or hassle whatsoever. I just find a shop (usually idealo), then I
order - done.

It's so simple, there's not much to write about - lest a guide.

> You can often cut out the middleman if you are buying electronics. For
> computers, phones and TVs, Dell, Apple and Samsung are all offering free
> delivery on their products

That's why the guide goes beyond its purported goal and tries to avoid other
shops as well?

> Environmentally friendly cleaning products, pet food and baby gear are
> available at Ethicalsupermarket.com. Standard delivery in the UK is free on
> orders over £50, or £3.95 on smaller orders.

Then specific shops and information about shipping?

Whatever - useless text. Just order somewhere else. It's that easy. (at least
in Germany) (yes, I hate Amazon - yes, I make a living with AWS)

\---

Special love goes to:

\- booklooker.de

\- medimops.de

\- notebookgalerie.de

\- thalia.de

\- mcgin.de

~~~
Diesel555
I do think you are missing out on how well Amazon has handled the online
purchasing. Not discussing their ethics, just the service of interacting with
them.

I make a purchase and it normally shows up the next day. That's unreal (I'm
near a distribution center, so that's not the normal 2 days stateside).

I need to make a return, I just click a button and bring the open box and item
to any UPS store (there are 3 within 3 miles). They will package it for me and
ship it. I just show them the UPC code on my phone with a ripped open box and
an item.

They have a good system. This may be US only, but it's easy to understand why
they are so popular.

I have separated myself from Google for privacy reasons (except a few
things...) and try to avoid Amazon where I can and support local shops. So
this isn't advocating Amazon, just pointing out that their competitors usually
can't compete on returns and shipping time.

~~~
wongarsu
In Germany Amazon usually delivers next day. So does just about everyone else,
since all it takes is packaging and getting the order to any postal carrier on
the same day.

Returns are unproblematic almost everywhere since a 14 day on-questions-asked
return policy for online purchases is EU law (and most online shops
voluntarily extend it to 30 days). Sure, I have to package it myself, but
that's no different than German Amazon.

Sure, Amazon is great, but so is almost everyone else (at least in Germany).
Amazon's main advantage is only learning one interface and one set of
processes for everything.

~~~
dx034
Absolutely not. Amazon is the only company that reliably shows when they'll
deliver, even before you order. Other companies tend to indicate deliveries
within 1-2 days or 2-3 days if items are in stock. You never know when the cut
off time is and if they ship out on Saturdays. I know that's a very hard
problem to solve logistically but as a customer I don't care.

I just ordered electronics online in Germany, not via Amazon. It was in stock
with a reputable stores. Still, my order from 9am got shipped two days later.
Maybe Covid related but Amazon would've shown me that before I placed the
order. Returns are fully automated with Amazon, very few other online
retailers in Germany have that.

Also the no questions asked return policy is pretty unique. If I get a
defective item I don't want to argue with the seller why it doesn't work, I
just want to have a working replacement tomorrow. Amazon always delivers on
that, others very rarely do.

I'd love to get away from Amazon and I'm not even that price sensitive. But
until a shop matches their customer service, I'll stay with Amazon for 99% of
my orders.

~~~
tripzilch
> Absolutely not. Amazon is the only company that reliably shows when they'll
> deliver, even before you order. Other companies tend to indicate deliveries
> within 1-2 days or 2-3 days if items are in stock. You never know when the
> cut off time is and if they ship out on Saturdays. I know that's a very hard
> problem to solve logistically but as a customer I don't care.

Except in NL ... that's exactly what the other stores do when they say "order
before 22:00 and have it delivered the next day!", almost entirely without
doing the things that make people dislike Amazon.

> Also the no questions asked return policy is pretty unique. If I get a
> defective item I don't want to argue with the seller why it doesn't work, I
> just want to have a working replacement tomorrow. Amazon always delivers on
> that, others very rarely do.

We have a 30-day "change your mind" policy required by law, I thought that was
a EU policy, but I guess it's Dutch ..

~~~
Symbiote
14 days is required by the EU rule (Distance Selling regulation), the Dutch
can extend that in their own law.

------
flavor8
I tried shopping Newegg recently (BC). Newegg's online customer service made
Amazon's look positively erudite, and in addition Newegg's return policy is
terrible by comparison. I still haven't received an item that I ordered 7
weeks ago (shipping was not advertised as being particularly slow), and I
still haven't been refunded for another item that I returned 2 weeks ago.
Amazon gets that if you can't touch the item in store, there should be a no-
fault return policy (and yes, I know that returns are environmentally
unfriendly, etc).

I tried to shop Jet (before they were acquired) and I found the search / shop
experience had too much friction. Amazon's UI has plenty of annoyances, but
they've made it _real_ easy to get something into your cart and check out.

On the other hand, all of my music studio purchases I make at Sweetwater.
Great customer service, free shipping, will price match if you ask, and
frictionless returns.

IMO Amazon is vulnerable to good competitors, but the emphasis is on good. I
can tolerate a small shipping fee, and I don't need next day or two day
shipping (although it's nice). On the other hand if you make it hard for me to
shop, customer service sucks, or I have to jump through hoops to return
something, I'll go back to Amazon.

~~~
jcims
Sweetwater has never let me down in 20 years. It’s been quite sometime since
I’ve used Crutchfield but I’ve always had a very high opinion of their
customer service as well.

Had a very poor experience ordering from Ikea. Just some kitchen towels,
nothing particularly interesting. Took six weeks to ship, zero updates on the
site about order status, estimated delivery date came and went
unceremoniously, wasn’t able to contact anyone via phone. Finally got an email
out of the blue that they shipped and arrived intact the next day. Pretty much
a ‘never again’ experience.

Amazon’s policies and employee treatment/relationships may need improvement or
complete overhaul, but their execution at getting matter into your hands and
dealing with issues is, in my experience, second to none.

~~~
tjr
The only times I can remember having real issues with buying from Amazon is
when I failed to notice that I was buying from a third-party on their site,
not actually from Amazon directly. And that said, the vast majority of my
(intentional) third-party purchases on Amazon have been flawless.

But, if they happen to sell what I am shopping for... Sweetwater and B&H Photo
are two stores from which I have had consistently great service. I've never
been to Sweetwater in person, but the physical B&H store is also a cool
experience.

~~~
scubasteve85
Sweetwater is awesome in person. Super friendly staff and they have a free
arcade for the community as well as a massive slide that my nephew loves to go
down.

------
Tiktaalik
If you want your mom n' pop shops to survive this thing consider them first.
You'd be surprised how many are probably doing deliveries.

It's awfully low tech, but the local indie book shop here in Vancouver will
order any book you ask for and deliver it throughout Metro Vancouver. All you
need to do is call them and ask.

~~~
justicezyx
"Call them and ask"

We all know how frustrating and time-wasting it can be, when calling for
professional service...

In the end, it's still a tech problem.

Amazon has the tech, and the customer base to form a virtuous cycle.

The smaller shop dont have that.

We need more Shopify like supplier, with varying degrees of sophistication and
targeted customer groups.

~~~
rchaud
I've found the opposite.

Calling is a waste of time when you're dialing a megacorp like your phone
company or utilities provider, because they treat customer service as a cost
center and do everything possible to prevent you from talking to a human who
isn't reading off a script.

Smaller shops will usually have someone who just picks up the phone when you
call.

~~~
alanbernstein
The thing is, "call them and ask" can be a 10-minute chore if you're looking
for some oddball item from a local supplier, or a 10-second search on Amazon.

~~~
Pfhreak
My local bookstore has 'email them and ask', which is much lower friction.

~~~
jcrben
lol

I expect the successful ones will have decent ecommerce platform within the
new few years.

~~~
Apocryphon
They already exist:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22773393](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22773393)

And Bookshop is just the newest one, as others like Alibris have been around
for much longer.

------
troughway
It’s a nice touch by The Guardian to write this article but given how much
Amazon has benefited from this epidemic, I do not think any kind of individual
vigilantism will really work here. You’re not even a drop in the bucket for
them and most people do not care.

If anything, thanks to them being a go-to platform, they’ve single handedly
allowed a lot of third party shops to sell their inventory, and have come out
net positive as a result. I don’t mean to sound as an apologist saying this -
just stating the bloody obvious.

The “vote with your wallet” rhetoric doesn’t work. It’s half past feel good
bullshit. If you want these companies to change it must be codified into the
law and backed up by hard time.

But good luck with that, since China is a massive trade partner and every
country is turning a blind eye to them imprisoning people in concentration
camps and harvesting organs. It’s unlikely The States are going to have a
change of heart anytime soon.

~~~
fossuser
I think it's feel good bullshit in part because the entire narrative is
bullshit, driven by an anti-tech media stance that is not actually well
represented in the real world.

Most people are happy with Amazon and like the service they provide - this
kind of thing is a non-story.

I say this as someone who buys directly from suppliers like Dell or Logitech
when I think there's a risk to getting repackaged or counterfeit items from
Amazon, but the experience is often worse (Dell monitors took 5 weeks to
arrive).

I think these articles are a symptom of something else, but I'm not quite sure
what it is. It feels like a political or tribal position, anti-large company,
or anti-success? - I'm not quite sure, but I think there's an underlying theme
that drives these types of articles and it isn't what they're directly about.
They're okay with a small under-dog company story, but if you become large and
successful then you're automatically written about in the most uncharitable
way possible.

~~~
uoaei
Chiming in for an anecdote to say: I'm boycotting Amazon because I am pro-
labor and Amazon treats their employees and contractors like almost-literal
shit. Even back when I first entered the workforce all the people I knew who
went to work for Amazon had absolutely hellish descriptions of their times
there. Employees regularly sobbing at their desks from pressure, PIPs being
weaponized to assuage paranoid delusions of mutiny from middle management,
etc. It sounded like that description of an experiment with monkeys who beat
each other for trying to get food. My housemate drives delivery for Amazon
sometimes and his depiction of their health standards and SOP during this
crisis are atrocious. If there would be a Geneva convention for employment,
Amazon would be most of its raison d'etre.

~~~
reddog
Thats a very virtuous and noble stance. According to the BLS, among the top 10
most dangerous jobs in America (warehouse worker didn't make the list) are
loggers, pilots, fishermen, farmers, construction workers, roofers, trash
collector and extraction workers.

Can I assume that out of concern for these workers you also don't buy food,
don't fly commercially, you dispose of your own refuse, never use anything
made out of wood and never enter a man made structure?

~~~
uoaei
You seem to have conflated "Amazon the corporation" with "Amazon's labor
force". They are not the same, but it is intriguing that you would take this
line of rhetoric.

I shop at the local food co-op, and I'm fine with the union leadership for
flight attendants and my local waste removal folks. I can't be perfect -- no
one can -- but this is a lot better than some others. Of course, this sort of
individualistic atomization of "virtue" with almost zero systemic change to
address the underlying concerns is ultimately kind of pointless, but I don't
see a reason to _start_ encouraging the exploitation of fellow humans any more
than I do now.

Your response makes me think you were triggered by my position. What stake do
you hold with Amazon? Why are you coming to their defense?

------
intopieces
If you're in the Bay Area and need more computer things, give Central
Computers a try. Their website is delightfully simple.

This article recommends hitting up major brands on their websites, which is ok
for all of them except Dell. Dell's website is an absolute shitshow.

I've been using Google Express and liked it quite a bit.

~~~
clairity
yes to central computers, meh to dell, and heck no to google.

support independently-owned businesses not trying to corner the market on all
your personal data.

------
beloch
Given how much Bezos has added to his personal net worth during the pandemic
($24B [1]), perhaps its time for governments to expect better treatment for
Amazon employees... or else. Charges of pandemic profiteering could be
convincingly brought to bear.

[1][https://fortune.com/2020/04/14/jeff-bezos-net-
worth-2020-bil...](https://fortune.com/2020/04/14/jeff-bezos-net-
worth-2020-billionaires-amzn-amazon-stock/)

~~~
nojito
I would expect HN of all places to know the difference between paper and
liquid net worth.

People are stuck at home and as result are forced to shop online which results
in increase revenue for the largest online commerce store.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
And? With increased revenue Amazon can probably afford to pay their workers
more.

~~~
jedberg
Increased revenue comes with increased costs. They may actually be making less
profit. We’ll find out this week when the post their earnings.

~~~
rescripting
Like economies of scale, but backwards? This makes no sense to me. Amazon was
built to extract value from volume.

~~~
jedberg
Slowly increased volume yes, a sudden burst of volume is a whole different
story.

For example right now they are trying to hire 100,000 people to cover the
increased demand. In the meantime, they are making their existing people do
the work of those 100,000, or letting the work go undone. In both cases that's
lost profits.

~~~
Retric
It’s lost revenue not lost profits. Amazon can sort orders by profit and thus
have profit increase as a larger percentage of work goes undone.

~~~
jedberg
That's not how real life works though. There is lost profits in unfulfilled
orders beyond just the original profit, in terms of customer service overhead
and warehouse overhead.

Also, paying someone to work overtime to serve the same orders is most
definitely lost profit, because it costs more to deliver the service.

Amazon's systems aren't designed for this type of sudden surge. They usually
have to ramp up and prepare for it (like around Christmas).

~~~
Retric
This is hardly the first time their system has been overwhelmed, it’s designed
to be robust and maximize profit. Further, a simple ships in X weeks gives
them plenty of time to ramp up staff.

It comes down to the software side of their business, and they have some great
back end software.

~~~
jedberg
It's clear that you don't understand Amazon's business nor do you appear to be
willing to listen to reason.

> This is hardly the first time their system has been overwhelmed

They have specifically said, publicly, multiple times, that they've never seen
an increase like this before in the history of their business.

> it’s designed to be robust and maximize profit.

Within limits. It doesn't scale infinitely. There is a human aspect involved
that doesn't scale instantly.

> Further, a simple ships in X weeks gives them plenty of time to ramp up
> staff.

Except, again, you are not accounting for lost profits due to increased
customer service requests, increased credits to Prime members for not meeting
the Prime SLA, increased costs of the warehouses being full of products they
can't move because they are constantly moving the new essential products that
are coming in, and a whole bunch of other fixed costs that they have not
related to their variable costs.

~~~
Retric
I have talked with warehouse employees, so I have a solid idea how it
operates.

> They have specifically said, publicly, multiple times, that they've never
> seen an increase like this before in the history of their business.

That’s true, but not that relevant.

> Increased customer service requests

Customer support is a controllable expense. When customer support lines spike
past a threshold they simply lack the people to take additional calls etc.

> Warehouses being full

Amazon has cut down on new items being added while still shipping some non
essential items. What your suggesting is an extremely dumb move their not
going to make.

> Prime SLA

What prime SLA?

 _From time to time, Amazon may choose in its sole discretion to add or remove
Prime membership benefits._
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201910780)

~~~
jedberg
> > They have specifically said, publicly, multiple times, that they've never
> seen an increase like this before in the history of their business.

> That’s true, but not that relevant.

It was in direct refutation of your claim that they have dealt with this type
of load before. They haven't and they have said that they have never dealt
with anything like this before. That's why it's relevant.

> Customer support is a controllable expense. When customer support lines
> spike past a threshold they simply lack the people to take additional calls
> etc.

You clearly don't understand Amazon if you think this is true. Customer
service is their number two core competency after logistics. It is paramount
to their success.

Besides, what do you think happens when they stop answering customer service
calls? Do you think people just go away? Obviously customer service is
important to their business or they wouldn't have it. They can't just drop
calls. So no, it's not really controllable.

> What prime SLA?

They're still giving credits if you call in and complain that your item didn't
arrive within two days. Even though it tells you before you order that it
won't.

Because they care about customer service.

~~~
Retric
> It was in direct refutation of your claim that they have dealt with this
> type of load before.

No, I said they have dealt with load past capacity before. Saying it’s 1% or
200% over capacity does not change the fact they have procedures in place to
deal with it.

> It is paramount to their success.

Yet, you have not said how it suddenly inherently spikes in cost after their
capacity is reached.

> They're still giving credits if you call in and complain that your item
> didn't arrive within two days.

That’s not an SLA, they will do quite a bit if you call and complain _up to a
point._ It’s designed to maximize revenue not a contract obligation, many
companies budget this under advertising costs for a reason.

Further, on the flip side they can reduce normal advertising spending which is
more than enough to cover some nominal difference. But you don’t need to take
my word for it, their a public company and we can just wait and see what their
profit is.

------
dude3
Been buying a lot of stuff on eBay. On the app, you can filter by Guaranteed
Delivery 1 to 4 days. If it doesn't make it by the guaranteed date, you get a
$5 credit to your eBay account. It's also frequently cheaper for new stuff.
For example, water bottles and bluetooth adapters.

~~~
Scoundreller
And if you really want to save money and have patience, just sort by Price +
Shipping: Lowest First.

------
ekianjo
Problem is that return policy for Amazon is excellent, but completely
nonexistent or cumbersome with other suppliers. That in itself is pretty much
a deal breaker for competitors.

~~~
gumby
Newegg and Monoprice have been pretty good for me.

~~~
whitehouse3
Have you had good return experiences with NewEgg?

I recently ordered a $100 drawer shelf for a 12U rolling AV cart. The shelf
was deeper than described so it jutted past the back of the rack. I sought a
return. For which NewEgg charged $70 in return freight and a $15 restocking
fee. Meaning I lost $85 and a few hours of time because NewEgg wouldn’t stand
by the specs on their site.

To add insult to injury, the first step of their return policy is a YouTube
video. As if part returns are so complicated. Amazon blows. But not like this.

I’m just one data point. Maybe an exception. I will never do business with NE
again (but I still love how they fight patent trolls)

~~~
gumby
It’s been a while since I had to return something so thanks fort that info,

------
zerd
I feel like there's a lack of good price comparison websites in US and Canada.
I'm used to e.g. PriceSpy which compares thousands of stores. Just as an
example showing 42 different stores selling this particular SSD
[https://pricespy.co.uk/computers-accessories/storage-
media/h...](https://pricespy.co.uk/computers-accessories/storage-media/hard-
drives/ssd-solid-state-drives/samsung-970-evo-plus-series-mz-v7s1t0bw-1tb--
p5035391)

Whenever I search for something like that for US/Canada I end up on a site
that indexes Amazon/ebay with affiliate links.

~~~
wfme
I second this. PriceSpy is so incredibly useful. I've recently moved from New
Zealand to Australia and PriceSpy doesn't offer their service here. It is now
so much more difficult to figure out where to get the best price. I took it
for granted and now have to make do with the mediocre
[https://www.priceme.com.au/](https://www.priceme.com.au/).

~~~
JimA
Same story in the US. Back in the day there were multiple price engines that
were super effective at finding the best price. I remember PriceGrabber and
even Google Shopping being really useful.

I think the affiliate links destroyed them all, removing the incentive for
them to offer the best price and instead only serve up the most profitable (to
them) links.

------
monksy
For me it's been:

\- NewEgg for electronics

\- Walmart/Target. You have to be careful with walmart as that they have an
open market place

\- Aliexpress for assorted small things that I can wait on

\- Abebooks (although they're owned by amazon :( ) for used books

\- Vitacost (owned by koger) for supplements/vitimins etc

I've gone through 2018, 2019, and 2020 so far without placing a single Amazon
order.

~~~
jfim
Walmart has an option to filter by retailer, so one can do a search, then
filter by retailer "walmart.com," which avoids third party vendors.

It's a bit annoying to have to do this on every search, though.

------
maw
Step 1: Live somewhere where online shopping other than with Amazon actually
works.

(You can think what you want about Amazon, but it's a remarkably provincial
piece.)

~~~
pm215
It's a piece in a UK newspaper: obviously they're going to focus on the
situation for most of their readers and the options that somebody in the UK
might have for online shopping. It's not trying to be a survey of the whole
global online shopping market or a resource for people in Brazil or Turkey,
and frankly it would be an entirely different and much less useful article if
it attempted that.

~~~
thayne
> much less useful

depends on who you are. If you live in the UK, sure. If you live anywhere
else, this article is not very useful.

~~~
pm215
I think an attempt at a world-spanning set of recommendations would have been
spread so thinly as to be useless for everybody, even if in theory it covered
their region. I think it's better to have an article that picks a
country/region to focus on and does that in depth. Some other
journalists/newspapers can handle doing similar articles for the US, Japan,
Germany, etc, and as local journos they'll have more experience of what
they're writing about and a wider array of contacts to get good suggestions
from.

------
cody3222
In the book "The Everything Store," Jeff Bezos mentions that the public tends
to hate companies as they get bigger and that managing the company's image is
very important.

All politics aside, I find it very interesting that this seems to be a law
that people just think companies are evil when they are big.

~~~
mdasen
I think it makes sense. When you're small, you don't have a lot of power. If
you create CodyStore tomorrow and do things I don't like, I'll just ignore
you. When you become as large as Amazon, you start crowding out competition
and so even if I don't like some of Amazon's actions, I have no choice - I end
up doing business with them regardless of my personal feelings.

Plus, as you get bigger, you start looking at how you can marginally increase
your growth. You go from "just make people happy" to "we could probably
exclude a lot of low-margin items from Prime shipping and not see cancelations
while improving our profits". You start trying to tie things together so that
if people want one part of your experience, they need to accept other parts.
You start trying to figure out how to optimize your labor cost, potentially in
ways that aren't great for your workers. You start getting a lot of people
that can improve the company in ways that aren't necessarily evil, but aren't
exactly friendly. By this time, people don't really have an alternative.

I mean, a lot of people loved Walmart when it was new. It was this all-in-one
store with great prices. Over time, competing businesses were crowded out of
the market by Walmart and customers had less choice. It also meant that retail
labor had less choice with Walmart becoming a greater percentage of the jobs.
It also meant that businesses selling things like TVs had less choice and
Walmart could pressure them.

I think power is ultimately pretty toxic. Amazon has succeeded in part because
it's really good at what it does. However, another part of its success is the
power it exerts on competitors, over labor, over suppliers, and over
customers. Small companies just never have power to exert so they can never
seem that unfriendly. Unfriendly small companies just cease to exist or at
least can be ignored. Unfriendly large companies can use their power to force
a lot of things to try and keep their throne.

~~~
cody3222
These are really good points and I agree with the idea of what you're saying
100%. I also agree with the specifics of Amazon and where they have clearly
gone past the "nice guy" line.

I would love to hear if there are examples of companies that have "done
everything right" that are still loved. I feel like there is a natural
journalistic hatred towards anyone very large (and sometimes it is totally
deserved). Perhaps there are no pure large companies and that's why...or
perhaps most business decisions are tradeoffs where either side won't please
everyone and that just opens up room for attack. I really don't know the
answer (even if we agree that Amazon deserves the negative press).

------
growlist
Whilst I'm not sure it's healthy to have one company so dominant, and whilst
Amazon's product range is not perfect:

1\. In terms of logistics it seems to me they handed every other logistic
company's arse to them - even those that have been running for _hundreds of
years_ and thus which you might hope to have some expertise in the field, and
conversely even the newer companies which you might hope are relatively
unburdened by inertia etc. Prime is awesome.

2\. At the risk of sounding heartless, I don't care about all the struggling
small competitors. Times and industries change, and Amazon's approach is
simply more efficient. Does it really benefit society to have x thousands of
people running their own e-commerce business rather than finding something
else to do? Should we be putting restrictions on weaving machines in order to
support manual weavers? Or supporting buggy whip manufacturers by taxing car
makers? Where do we draw the line?

3\. I don't care about the tax avoidance etc. I'd rather see Bezos spend the
money on rocketry than have governments wasting yet more on handouts. The
former will probably benefit humanity more in the end.

4\. Price. If Amazon weren't almost always equal or very slightly above
competitors I wouldn't use it. But it is. Why should I pay more? To support ye
olde historical e-commerce shoppe?

~~~
amelius
> Should we be putting restrictions on weaving machines in order to support
> manual weavers?

Well, we should if behind the scenes those weaving machines were kept
operational by an army of low-wage workers.

~~~
growlist
In the UK we had (pre-CV) virtual full employment, and a reasonable minimum
wage. The average person had plenty of other options, and nobody was forcing
anyone to work at Amazon.

------
robotbikes
This article is very focused on the UK but its still possible to try and avoid
supporting Amazon if you are willing to pay for shipping or use alternative
outlets like EBay although many of those selling on that platform still use
Amazon for fulfillment.

~~~
g42gregory
Well, I tried to buy an item from eBay 3 weeks ago. eBay said the article was
shipped few days after the purchase. 3 weeks later, nothing came. I asked the
vendor, what happened, can you give me the tracking number? The vendor's
reply: "our supplier haven't given us the tracking number yet." You mean to
tell me that the item hasn't been shipped yet, despite that you told me it did
3 weeks ago? Yep. That's eBay.

~~~
GuiA
On the other hand, eBay customer support is very friendly to buyers. Open a
case the day after the advertised delivery, you will get refunded.

As a long time seller/buyer I’ve developed a set of heuristics around eBay
(most of them obvious - avoid non US based accounts, descriptions where the
photos are clearly not the actual item itself, etc) and I’ve only had one or
two bad surprises in over 10 years. Both times customer support came through.

~~~
FireBeyond
A little _too_ friendly.

A buyer screwed me out of 5 drone (DJI Mavic 2) batteries and $700. Two weeks
after getting the drone, “none of the batteries work”. Really? All five? I was
skeptical, but said I’d do a partial refund if he’d commit in writing that the
partial refund was contingent on him returning the batteries so I could
repair, or replace (at least two were still in warranty, if there was ever
even a problem). At no point did he show any actual evidence of battery issues
(DJI Go battery diagnostics, etc.), just "it's not showing anything".

He sent a message agreeing, via eBay messages with the text I'd sent him, even
with "should I not do this, I understand that seller will dispute the
transaction".

Not even an hour later he sent another message “USPS won’t ship damaged
batteries so I am not returning them”.

I went to eBay with all this, and his agreement. eBay said he could keep the
$700. And the five batteries.

------
coding123
I have done most of my pandemic shopping on Amazon, but have had luck with 4/5
externally run sites, most of which are on shopify. In the first 3 weeks after
the first shelter in place orders, Amazon was about a week slower than the
rest. Now it switched, and it seems Amazon is faster again. However I am now
regularly doing business with a few other sites that have products Amazon
doesn't.

------
rad_gruchalski
In Germany: go to Amazon.de, search for the product. Check if it’s available
from third party sellers. Copy the seller’s name, google for their online
shop. If they have one, buy direct. Bit clunky but pretty often cheaper.

~~~
unnouinceput
Also pay on delivery, make the delivery guy wait 5 minutes and open the
package -> test 5 minutes for obvious flaws. This is the best way and cheaper.

Do treat the delivery guy with something though, I usually offer homemade
sweets and/or free alcohol beer. They deserve it.

------
JackPoach
I haven't bought anything from Amazon for about 5 years, because I moved, but
I really feel uncomfortable about Amazon bashing. I think Amazon has done a
huge favor for online stores. I think AWS is incredible service that powers a
lot of great online services. You absolutely should criticize Amazon for poor
labor practices and you are free to avoid buying from them on ethical grounds.
But I think it the end you might hurt more people you are trying to protect.
We all love to have our favorite evils. Facebook yesterday, Amazon today,
Microsoft ten years ago. But the history teaches us that the only effective
way to limit monopolies and stop them from abusing their powers is strong
government actions. Boycotts don't work.

~~~
drewcoo
Boycotts seem to have some effect.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boycotts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boycotts)

------
rchaud
Title should be updated to specify that this is UK only. The Guardian is UK-
based but covers international news as well.

~~~
zenlot
If it was US focused, would it be ok to not have US in the title?

~~~
rchaud
If the article was about US-based alternatives to Amazon, then no, it wouldn't
be OK. The same principle would apply.

------
steveharman
I wonder if it is _thanks to Amazon_ that so many other online retailers are
now offering service "as good as Amazon".

Because they have to. It certainly wasn't always the case.

------
electriclove
For many hardware and photography needs, I will choose B&H instead of Amazon.

~~~
villson
Not only photography, anything dropped shipped from a warehouse. For example,
if I need a printer or laptop in a pinch B&H will get it to me pretty quick.
Pretty much anything electronics wise they are great source.

Going back to photography, you totally trust B&H. You know the equipment has
been treated well since it arrived from the factory. No chance of grey market
stuff either.

------
niedzielski
Does anyone have further CD (or FLAC) vendors they'd recommend for uncensored
music? I often have a hard time finding CDs outside of Amazon or FLACs beyond
Bandcamp. For example, Con by Tegan & Sara, The Jungle Is The Only Way Out by
Mereba (which even Amazon doesn't have in CD), and Blueprint by Ferry Corsten.
I didn't see them on Very, Zavvi, or Hive mentioned in the article.

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DI5SXM6](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DI5SXM6)
[https://www.amazon.com/Jungle-Only-Way-Out-
Explicit/dp/B07NZ...](https://www.amazon.com/Jungle-Only-Way-Out-
Explicit/dp/B07NZXB295) [https://www.amazon.com/Blueprint-FERRY-
CORSTEN/dp/B071S3RLL3](https://www.amazon.com/Blueprint-FERRY-
CORSTEN/dp/B071S3RLL3)

------
Theodores
Normally the media in the UK can't have 'how to avoid retailer x' articles as
that means 'retailer x' isn't going to place adverts in their paper. However,
online, I imagine it does not matter, ads just arrive without negotiation
between 'retailer x' and the publication/paper.

Currently avoiding Amazon however I can't get a garden sieve/riddle in my
preferred local store. So I have to go on Amazon if I really want one.

My local store has a sieve for £5 when in stock. That is all the sieve
options, take it or leave it. The decision is easy. But, on Amazon, there is
paralysis of choice. Hundreds of sieves to choose from, invariably more
expensive than the £5 local store price. With shipping on top.

The choice works with books but not with everything. A decent retailer only
sells top quality stuff with an affordable option and maybe a super deluxe
option, so your choice is between a small amount of items. Amazon doesn't help
with that.

------
cleandreams
I order from [https://bookshop.org](https://bookshop.org). It's a sort of
umbrella for local bookstores: one storefront, many vendors. I select my
favorite local bookstore and support them.

~~~
pbamotra
It’s hard to beat Amazon on prices though. For comparison, look at the prices
of best sellers. Sometimes the difference is as much as 40%. Trying
bookofthemonth.com for a change.

------
levosmetalo
I got sick of Amazon trying to squeeze the last cent from me that I now
consciously avoid it, even in case it is "the cheapest".

It happened to me many time that Amazon show me higher price when I go there
and search directly, then when I open the same product page by copy&pasting
the Amazon url in the incognito window.

Not to mention that coming to Amazon through the idealo.de or some other meta
engine gives sometimes even better price.

To hell with them, most of the competition in Germany doesn't do those scummy
things. And the delivery and return policies are mandated by law anyway.

------
ehnto
I see a lot of articles trying to reason their dislike for Amazon into logical
dot points. I think it's enough to just not like the idea of any entity having
so much of the general market.

------
inson
It's like "Let's buy something not made in China"... Amazon is very convenient
and at some point addictive (same day or 2 days delivery) way of online
shopping. They got big enough that now they can dictate rules. So unless some
other company with really great customer service, delivery speed, and return
policy comes up, Amazon will be dominant in the US and Europe.
Alibaba/AliExpress is an asian amazon.

------
Zenst
Given [https://www.marketwatch.com/story/facebook-google-amazon-
to-...](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/facebook-google-amazon-to-be-hit-
with-new-2-uk-digital-service-tax-2020-03-11)

Then why is this not only overlooked by this article, but not even touched
upon. That I find most curious.

------
shamdasani
I recently found out of a site ([https://syessa.com](https://syessa.com))
selling household items (hand soap, detergent, dish liquid, etc.) at equal to
or cheaper prices than Amazon. Better to support small businesses! I ordered
from them last thursday and received my order today.

------
birdyrooster
How to avoid Amazon: Try shopping for anything and you will find it's all sold
out or delayed by a month.

------
bash-j
I've discovered if you search for local online shops you get poor results, but
if you visit the websites of local businesses, quite a few have implemented
home delivery. I guess they aren't good at SEO.

------
rezeroed
I was on Amazon a few weeks ago, clicked on the ratings graph, and was
returned a page with nothing but an ascii art dog. The company just seems to
be a mess.

------
throw93232
Amazon used to be good for more obscure, hard to find things. I now use Ebay
for such stuff. It is more transparent and I can communicate directly with
seller.

------
Gimpei
They mention Target as an alternative in this. What makes them
better/different?

------
joyj2nd
Ok, let me try for the US:

newegg.com (Electronics)

alibris.com (books)

monoprice.com (electronics)

bhphotovideo.com (photo)

purebulk.com (dietary supplements)

ebay.com (everything)

------
unkoman
Can't you use a service such as pricerunner.com or pricespy.co.uk

------
yepthatsreality
We’re explaining the basics of shopping to people now for clicks...

------
timbaboon
No Amazon in South Africa... That makes it easier to avoid them :P

------
4rt
i needed a 12mm masonry bit to floor-mount an amazon safe i ordered and was
surprised to find that in a local diy store the drill bit was £1.99 and on
amazon it was £12.99.

------
bashwizard
Why would anyone buy anything from Amazon?

------
bradlys
Do people not know how to shop online outside of Amazon?

I'm not paying more to buy things through other platforms. If something is the
same price on Amazon as it is elsewhere - the other place will lose until they
have faster shipping or some other benefit. And this is coming from someone
who buys a lot of stuff elsewhere and does a lot more than the average
consumer when it comes to shopping. I do buy stuff elsewhere frequently. (I
just spent $600 on soldering equipment through TEquipment, Louis Rossman's
store, and some Amazon stuff because I couldn't find the stuff elsewhere for
cheaper) The reason I do it isn't because I'm anti-Amazon - I buy stuff
through various sources because I'm a thoroughbred slickdealer. (And you can
bet your butt I looked up all those items to see if there were ever any deals
on them or if I could get them used for cheaper - odd stuff doesn't get posted
much about, sadly)

So, yeah, I buy stuff outside of Amazon... However, I'm a bit annoyed because
I feel like the quality control is really bad at other sources far too often.
With some shops I feel like they're gonna call me up and say, "Hey, I noticed
you bought X, Y, and Z, do you want to buy this too?" And this just pads
delivery time by days. They're slow to ship often enough as well. You buy an
item online but you didn't know the shop was closed for 2 weeks. Sometimes -
it's good. I remember I got $100 off my vacuum cleaner because they offered
free overnight shipping for these vacuum cleaners - but I could get $100 off
the price if I chose ground shipping. (Not an option online) That was worth
knowing but that's rare! Most of the time I get a call like, "I noticed you
bought X which is an accessory to Y, and Y wasn't in your order, do you want
to buy Y?" No, of course not. I didn't buy Y because you charge too much for
it and I can get it for cheaper elsewhere!

On top of this - even big names mess up too often! I tried to buy an Elgato
capture card off through Bestbuy this last week. It wasn't even available
anywhere else except Bestbuy. I used Google Shopping in the process because it
was quicker/easier than going through Bestbuy's website. In the end - I got
shipped a god damn microwave that I had to return today via UPS. Huge pain in
the ass. I had to go to the local UPS store twice because I went _too early_
(never thought that would happen!) to the UPS store the first time. (They're
open 11-5) Yes, that stuff could happen with Amazon but I feel like they might
have slightly better inventory management than that and would recognize when a
50lb+ item is being shipped instead of a 1lb. Surprisingly, the shipping
labels (both ways) were only for objects < 5lbs. And yet UPS took them both
times.

Target - same crap. Order something for store pickup even - no go. They cancel
the order days later saying it isn't in stock. Home Depot? Fulfills half your
order when you clearly need the whole thing.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22795970](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22795970)
I avoid store pickup when I can now. It's usually faster for me to find the
item(s) in store and go through self-checkout than to wait in line at pickup.

I'm not pro-Amazon but I am not pro-poor experience for the same or more
price. There's a reason Amazon is doing well compared to the competition and
it's because they've made it much lower friction.

------
jtdev
Why do we hate Amazon again?

------
palijer
Let's hope none of those sites use AWS...

------
ARandomerDude
My books from Amazon almost always arrive bent, dirty, etc. I order from the
publishers whenever possible.

~~~
mttjj
How do you find the prices? I’ve only ever looked on Amazon but even for new
releases they seem to be considerably discounted from the publisher’s list
price.

~~~
ARandomerDude
Good question. It depends on the publisher. I usually look up both. If Amazon
is significantly cheaper (tens of dollars), then I'll order from Amazon. If
they send me garbage, I'll order from the publisher and return the Amazon
book.

I may be in a niche circumstance, but most of the books I order from the
publishers are within about $5 of Amazon. I don't know the exact count, but I
have approximately 600 books. Worth it to have nice ones!

------
Polylactic_acid
Is avoiding Amazon so hard that a guide is needed? I have only ever purchased
something from Amazon once because someone gave me a gift card. It wasn't any
cheaper or more convenient than ebay so I'm not sure what the craze over
Amazon is about.

