
I Spent A Month Living In A Romanian Sexcam Studio - denzil_correa
http://m.vice.com/read/bucharest-webcam-studios-america-outsourcing-sex-trade?utm_source=vicetumblrus
======
pvnick
That was a fascinating, well-written, and yet incredibly sad read. It's easy
to lose touch in the relative comfort of the first world, both geographically
as well as virtually. I loved the comparison to the red light district.
Desperately lonely divorced Western men spending a fortune on these young
foreign girls and boys for companionship and sexual gratification, and the
young folks drawn into whoring out their bodies over the internet just to make
rent and buy food. Or, evidently, to squander their money "Gangnam Style" on
luxuries to feel rich. The whole thing reaches a level of depravity almost to
the point of absurdity. Interestingly enough, Romania turns out to have among
the fastest average broadband connection speeds in the world [1].

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Romania#Average_Spe...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Romania#Average_Speed)

~~~
yogo
I see it as basic economics, with a history going back as far as biblical
times. The real first world problem is looking at this as depraved when in
fact it's a real business, with a real demand, that makes money versus some
shitty startup.

~~~
coldtea
> _I see it as basic economics, with a history going back as far as biblical
> times._

The same could be said for slavery.

~~~
olalonde
The same could be said of all economic activities going back to biblical
times. What's your point?

~~~
coldtea
My point is that (1) "has been going on for ages" and (2) "is an economic
activy" are not sufficient qualifiers to show that something is (3) OK to go
one and/or good and/or beneficial to society.

(Which was part of the argument the parent made).

I used the slave trade as an counter-example to his point, because while it
qualifies (1) and (2), most people will agree that it's not OK.

~~~
jdimov
What is beneficial to society is none of your competence, so you would do wise
to refrain from such comments.

~~~
coldtea
> _What is beneficial to society is none of your competence, so you would do
> wise to refrain from such comments_

Perhaps you are not current with this ancient Greek notion called "democracy".
Its premise is that "what is beneficial to society" is _everybody's_
competence and everybody can, nay should, have his say on the matter.

(Of course, there are other trains of thought, from Plato to Nietzche and
Hitler, that run counter to this idea, perhaps you subscribe to them. Or to
some second-rate, provincial, version of them, like Rand).

In any case, it would be wise for you to refrain from silly advice such as the
above.

------
dangrossman
There are "sex cam studios" in every country, including America. There are
several in Arizona and Nevada. They're just like the coworking spaces us
devs/designers have available to us -- space to work in, a solid internet
connection, and a network of people in the same industry as you, some of whom
will pair up to serve "clients" whose needs are too much for one "contractor".

~~~
LukeWalsh
While this is technically true, I disagree with the undertone. I think the
industry is fundamentally different and in its most extreme realizations has
been shown to cause severe emotional harm to exploited workers.

~~~
sbov
Extreme realizations and exploiting workers is a problem in any industry.
People have died farming gold in video games. Its why we have labor laws.

~~~
sillysaurus2
_People have died farming gold in video games._

What.. really? Died farming gold?

~~~
mschuster91
Yap, IIRC one Japanese and one Taiwanese dude, but don't remember the
specifics.

~~~
hkmurakami
Definitely a few in china and Korea as well

------
calvinwest
Several years ago I worked at an adult entertainment company. They were
involved in pretty much every vertical of adult content except perhaps print.
When I read articles like this one I'm always amazed at how well the tone of
numbness carries through. This is the essential characteristic of the adult
industry, as everyone involved in it, top to bottom, is numb or becomes numb.

~~~
MichaelGG
Numb in what way? Numb to the mundane in-and-out stuff of the business? I'm
sure many people in many industries become numb to things.

~~~
calvinwest
It's a numbness to being objectified, passed around and drained of value. It's
not only the "talent" (as the performers are called) that is treated in that
manner. All employees are subject to it - from HR, secretaries, video editors,
developers, IT, marketing associates, all the way up to executives.

In adult entertainment you are not an individual, but rather a resource to be
exploited. I've worked in a few other industries and I've never felt the
callousness that I did while working in the adult industry. Because everyone
is numb, it ends up creating an environment where there is no support and
you'll eagerly step over a fallen comrade and right into the meat grinder
yourself.

I remember sitting at a pub with a group of 8 coworkers, one of whom had just
given his two-weeks notice. He confided in us, over beers, that he was
extremely depressed. No one at the table said anything in response; no
reassurances, no thoughtful gestures. We sat quietly for a few moments before
someone changed the conversation, but we all knew why he felt that way.

~~~
aeontech
I don't think that's unique to adult industry though...

I know plenty of people in programming business who are depressed. Read some
stories about gaming company death marches.

Financial business is also notorious for numbness and meaninglessness it often
engenders in its participants.

Let's not fail to mention the innumerable hundreds of thousands who are stuck
in menial/warehouse/retail/tech support jobs that offer little to no mental
nourishment. "Wage slave" is a common term for a reason.

I think pretty much any industry can numb and dehumanize people who are not
careful to build and maintain their relationships and social structures. I
would not expect to be best friends with all my coworkers, and I would feel my
life to be severely one-sided if I only had friends among coworkers.

~~~
calvinwest
I didn't say unique to, but "essential to." It may also be essential to those
other industries, but I have no experience in them.

Sure, shady and disheartening things can happen at any company. However, if
that type of negative culture is cultivated at the expense of everything else,
it can be jarring even for the most stable individual. I experienced some
things that were pretty terrible (and illegal) that gave me pause, but more
veteran employees shrugged those things off with cavalier sarcasm. I left
because I didn't want to become like them.

------
adventured
The people getting rich off of this industry are the cam sites, such as
MyFreeCams or LiveJasmin, typically taking half of the earnings brought in
(models get the other half, often split down to a quarter if a studio is
involved). Several of them are generating tens of millions in revenue at this
point, and are among the top 500 sites globally in traffic.

The founder of MyFreeCams runs a VC business in the US with his cam wealth.

I wouldn't be surprised if in another five years the cam business is larger
than the traditional porn industry, including the large porn sites.

~~~
calvinwest
It's probably already bigger, but they guard their numbers. Tube sites are
just portals to get you to go to a cam site or a dating site. There are fewer
regulations with those sites as opposed to professionally produced pornography
(2257 regs, condom use laws in LA County, etc.). You also don't have to worry
about copyright infringement (executing it or defending yourself from it) with
cams and dating sites.

~~~
pkl2
How do they monetize the adult dating sites? Sign up fees? I would think
there's not a lot of repeat business there, once the users find out it's a
scam. Whereas cam sites can milk people forever.

~~~
calvinwest
Membership fees and cross-promotions to other adult properties are the primary
means of monetization. Some of them will have virtual goods and tribute/tip
systems as well. Most often (male) users cannot communicate with other members
unless they pay for access. And, what's more scammy, is that if you receive
any messages from women, it's highly likely to be a camgirl or female agent
from another part of the company. These girls receive commissions for getting
non-paying members to convert.

Hookup sites are a volume-based business. A common business practice is to
whitelabel a successful hookup site; give it a different skin, but share the
same database so it looks populated. Once you're in the database, you'll be
spammed for any new whitelabeled version that pops up. Also, the user
population is 95% male, so you have better odds of finding a female hookup at
a gay bar.

~~~
gaius
Poker sites work on the same principle.

------
DanBC
Many people would pay for non-sexual fully clothed friendship services.

Get the price right, get the training right, make sure there is strong
blocking to protect against creeps (and set expectations from the start) and I
think you'd get considerable business.

~~~
dm2
Like a virtual community center?

It would need games and activities as well as profiles.

How would it differ from facebook? Not that I approve of what facebook has
become but I can imagine spending a lot of time developing this awesome site
only to have it be nothing more than a social media clone.

~~~
gabemart
Is it common for people to "meet" new friends on facebook? I have no
experience of people doing so. If someone I had never met contacted me on
facebook to try and forge a social relationship, I would find it
inappropriate.

~~~
MichaelGG
Unless you opted in to an app to find new people. Seems like instead of
building a site from the ground, the quicker technical approach is probably a
Facebook app.

~~~
girvo
People in general have an aversion to linking their personal FaceBook to apps
in this space. Rightly or wrongly, they worry about it becoming known that
they use services like that. It's an interesting phenomenon, and it wasn't all
like that back a few years.

~~~
danneu
Haven't people been living in fear of their loneliness being unmasked for
longer than a few years? Put another way, don't we already demonize loneliness
and low social value?

I can't imagine it being a new phenomenon that people are averse to "Katie
started using e-Friend MatchMaker!" showing up on their Facebook news feed.
And if there is a usage statistic indicating that fewer people are using
e-Friend MatchMaker, I wager it's because they're realizing that it shows up
on their news feed.

I would think it's always been uncool to use dating websites and any other
extension of that concept. Even on Tinder, there's like this subtle charade
that yeah, we're both normally way too cool for this stuff but our throng of
friends finally convinced us to join. Maybe we can find some time to send each
other a message despite our busy schedule of meeting new people irl.

------
ajiang
Non-mobile link for those not on a phone

[http://www.vice.com/read/bucharest-webcam-studios-america-
ou...](http://www.vice.com/read/bucharest-webcam-studios-america-outsourcing-
sex-trade)

~~~
cheapsteak
In this case the mobile one is actually the better viewing experience.

------
yarou
I actually don't find this story all too surprising. What really irked me was
the piece on how Japan commodified various aspects of a relationship (i.e.
"cuddle cafes"[0], those bar/club places where people pay top dollar to tell
their problems to complete strangers). Maybe this is the logical "next step"
of human relationships; however, such a conclusion is thoroughly
disheartening.

[0][http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-japanese-
lo...](http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-japanese-love-
industry)

~~~
saraid216
> Maybe this is the logical "next step" of human relationships

It might be a logical one, but it's not one we ought to aim for. There's a
weak, but building movement going on trying to push us in a different
direction. See stuff like Jeremy Rifkin's RSA talk or Enrique Peñalosa's TED
talk. I'm sorry about the vagueness, but I'm having trouble coming up with a
way to summarize it usefully. =/

~~~
yarou
I think fundamentally, people are growing more lonely as we shift from the
purely physical realm into the abstract world of the web. You have startups
like Grouper trying to solve loneliness, but in reality they may even be
exacerbating it. We all get a little lonely sometimes, and I don't think
there's a viable substitute to physically meeting someone. Barring a
fundamental change in our brain chemistry.

~~~
saraid216
Which is why I reference movements like the one Peñalosa is part of. (I don't
have enough easy references.) It isn't something that can be well-answered by
startups. Profit motive _defines_ the shift from the purely physical realm
into the abstract world. That's what money is: it abstracts trust and makes it
less necessary. It makes us more efficient for the price of less effort spent
on trust.

The answer isn't to remove money but rather to provide money-less connection
points. Create debts that aren't monetary but personal and non-transferable.
Talk to people for no better reason than to get to know them. Find out what
makes them tick and what would make them happy. That kind of thing. It's...
complex.

------
thenomad
Whilst there are a lot of impassioned statements of position in this thread,
I'm not seeing a lot of discussion of the massive body of research on sex work
and sex workers, or the many commentaries on the industry from people working
inside it.

Given this is HN, that seems like a bit of a pity. As usual, evidence produces
some conclusions which intuition may not.

Here's one study on strippers, for example, from the University of Leeds
(Reuters link, can't find the original study, irritatingly):

[http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/08/27/us-britain-
lapdanc...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/08/27/us-britain-lapdancing-
idUSTRE67Q2YW20100827)

------
tn13
Well written article. I spend regularly on the cam sites and find the whole
model fascinating. Very few models however actually give any meta details such
as those provided in this article.

------
unsigner
I'm in Bulgaria, not Romania. We have similarly great residential Internet
speeds and I think the article is wrong in attributing them to the sex
industry. (I have no idea whether there are a significant number of similar
businesses here in Sofia.) I think the net connection speeds are due to a
combination of two factors: a very dense population (think 10-20 floor cheap
residential towers from the times of socialism) a wildly unregulated market.
The result was a zillion of small, very aggressive ISPs wiring up
neighbourhoods with LAN cables for 5-10 EUR/month "all our router can handle"
speeds (only international traffic is metered, national - where the torrent
trackers and other torrent users are - is virtually at wire speed).

~~~
josu
I think that the answer is capitalism:

>Total number of active providers[in Romania], as of Dec 31 2007: 1338

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Romania#Internet_Se...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Romania#Internet_Service_Providers)

------
samsonr
As a Romanian web developer working remotely for a Western company active in
the adult industry and collaborating with video-chat studios in my hometown
(Bucharest), I'd like to add my 2 cents:

I'm actually in touch with the studio managers here and I can tell you
everything happens 'by the book', we are not a 3rd world country. The girls
are not enslaved, abused or forced into anything, instead they are recruited
through the usual recruiting methods (media), they even work legally and get
their pay-checks in time. They can quit whenever they want, all of this
happening in complete discretion. You probably know that the websites they
work on are blocked within the same country for obvious reasons. Of course the
morality of the girls may come into question, but that is strictly up to them.
They are just taking advantage of the economical discrepancy between eastern
and western Europe (average monthly wage here is around 400 EUR). Yes, there
are people spending massive amounts of money on video-chat and things can
degenerate quickly (affecting your private life) but same thing happens with
gambling sites and no one bats an eye.

As for working within such a company I could never say that I became numb or
feeling morally wrong. I've had the opportunity to work with quality people on
challenging technical issues and it has been a prolific period for my career.
The way I see it is as being strictly business.

As for Romania, it really is a good place for startups. There are a lot of
competent people here wasting their value and time on jobs and wages that some
of you would consider ridiculous. But that's just what history left us with
and it may take a while for us to get in line.

------
phowat
"Unofficially, someone's put a lot of work into the country’s
telecommunication infrastructure, with the result that Romania now has a
faster download speed than any G20 nation."

So, low cost of living and great internet infrastructure. Seems like a good
place to found a "regular" startup also.

Anyone knows how hard would be to get a visa? Are they part of EU?

~~~
rsynnott
They're part of the EU, and do have a rapidly growing startup scene.

------
swalsh
I didn't realize it was real people, I always thought it was some "AI" with
loops, kind of like that viral burger king campaign with the chicken.

~~~
girvo
Some are indeed just video loops. They don't do very well though, it's not
just the naked body that's needed, it's the interaction that matters more.

------
patrickaljord
She says the girls are exploited by the studio and the clients are exploited
by the girls. A typical marxist way to view things. I see no one being
exploited here. All I see is consenting adults passing contracts with each
others and all getting satisfaction out of it. Nobody is being forced to do
anything. The studio makes good money, the women and men work willingly and
make a great wage even by american standards. And clients, well, they may be
lonely indeed but for all I know, the few minutes they spend on the cam may be
the the happiest minutes of their days, no one is forcing them to pay for the
service and they seem extremely satisfied by what they're paying for.

So who here is being exploited? All I see is an exchange of transactions
between consenting adults that all seem extremely satisfied with what they get
out of each deal. What again is wrong with that? Where is the exploitation? I
know it sounds good to say these people are all exploited and maybe we should
ban these activities to protect these people from hurting themselves because
they're too dumb to make their own decisions. This is generating great
business for Romania and client satisfactions. Please, don't call it
exploitation and let people live their life. Live and let live. Don't judge,
don't prohibit things because they offend you.

~~~
3pt14159
Eh, I'm libertarian as they come, but some of those men are addicted. It is
possible and unethical to exploit an adult.

~~~
patrickaljord
They are just satisfying the clients needs for their service, the clients know
exactly what they're doing. She even told one guy she had a boyfriend and
everything and the guy didn't care, he just enjoyed paying for his fantasy.

------
wehadfun
Well I could comment but I'm at work

~~~
buckbova
Hard at work in a sexcam studio?

Honestly is this SFW and is it a video or article?

~~~
troygoode
It is SFW and is in article format.

~~~
buckbova
Whoops: "Not allowed to browse Adult/Mature Content category". Foiled again.

~~~
mschuster91
Probably a keyword filter in the URL... lol

------
marincounty
Wasen't this why the Internet and Cams were invented? I'm being facetious(a
word my father abused), but kinda serious. I remember talking to Rick about a
way to annonymously talk to chicks in the early ninties. It has gotten
disgusting though, and I'm sorry, I don't blame guys completely; girls have
changed. They care more about money than ever before. Girls in the eighties
and ninties didn't know what power they possessed, and I think they had better
morals? As to any masoginistic claims; I used "girl", because you in my time
women didn't spread their legs for clicks.

