

Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery) - JumpBean
http://www.bootstrappingindependence.com/modernism/the-modern-industrial-slave-complex-or-complete-entanglement/

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0x12
What a load of junk. Pardon my French, but this is not slavery by any stretch
of the imagination.

This is modern slavery:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery>

Poor impulse control with respect to buying gadgets, thinking you _have_ to
keep up with the neighbours, assuming that you can be part of society without
having to pull your weight, calling employers 'owners', ignoring social
security (which is quite effective in many countries), these are all choices
and the writer of the article seems to miss the point that these are choices.

Modern society works because we want it to work, we choose representatives
which enact the laws which in turn create incentives to participate in
society. For the most part, we govern ourselves through our ability to vote.
Slaves could not vote.

Sure it isn't all roses, there are plenty of areas where there is waste and
there is lots of unfairness.

The deck can feel stacked against you, that's a fact. But that does not mean
that this equates to slavery, even in a modern sense. That does a great
disservice to those that actually are in slavery today and whose plight makes
the one of someone that has a hard time to refuse buying the next generation
iGadget look like exactly what it is: A luxury problem.

There are factors at work to improve the situation (not always equally
effective): technological progress means more pay for _far_ less work, unions
that give people that work collective power, and that have in some cases
toppled governments (see Poland, ca. 1986) and so on.

Slavery is a serious issue, not living above your means and matching your
expenses to your income so you don't run into debt is a bookkeeping problem
and a psychological one.

The option to 'self employ' instead of being a part of the system is a false
dichotomy, the third (unlisted) alternative is to be a bum.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to be a bum.

Care should be taken to distinguish between societies that have a proper
social security system in place and those that don't. For those countries that
do not the number of choices people have may be seriously reduced and
typically those countries have a larger percentage of their population below
the poverty line or in the homeless category, and definitely not by choice.

Even in those situations you'd be hard pressed to call them slaves.

~~~
bryanlarsen
Did you read the article? To me, the first half of the article basically said,
"the term slavery is not applicable". And then the second half introduced the
term entanglement instead.

In other words, the author agrees with you.

~~~
0x12
One of the most tiring responses to a comment is 'did you read the article'.
Yes, of course I read the article.

I thought of doing a 'point by point' because that seems to be the only way to
respond a pile of nonsense like this without getting that particular response.

I choose not to because that would be overlong and it would not add anything.

The only thing this article shows is that if you use your creativity that you
can stretch any term to mean anything. The only other party that I'm aware of
that plays word and mindgames like this with its audience is scientology.

If you don't want to be a part of society you're free to opt-out, or to
organize politically in order to effect change that makes society into what
you want it to be.

No slave ever had that option, and no modern day slave has that option.

The author makes it seem as though we are all part of some gigantic mechanism
that enslaves us all, and that we collectively would be better off by
following his 4 step plan to 'independence', but he fails to notice that his 4
step plan simply leads to a much higher level of dependency but on different
entities (aka customers).

Society is built on those dependencies, we enter into them voluntarily and
there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.

Bad choices lead to feeling bad, so think before you commit to something,
including starting a business.

Fast forward 4 years and we'll be seeing blog posts about 'how I'm going to
free myself from being a slave of my customers'.

Slavery has absolutely nothing to do with it, not even in spirit or
peripherally. Entanglement is a meaningless term, we already have a word that
fits perfectly well: _citizenship_ , which happens to have the opposite
meaning of being a slave.

------
macavity23
Nice article, thanks for posting. Money quote:

 _The more we buy into consumerism as a lifestyle, the less we are able to see
clearly and become independent, as our social stature begins to depend on our
consumerist successes._

The slavemasters here are ourselves, or more accurately our subconscious
desires (to be popular, sexy and powerful) as interpreted and channeled by the
market.

On this subject, I would strongly recommend Adam Curtis' BBC documentary
series 'The Century of the Self' which documents the rise of consumerism and
the psychoanalytical theories underpinning it. It really opened my eyes to the
many parts of our culture that I'd considered eternal that are in fact
entirely C20th creations.

I don't think it's actually available legally, but your favourite torrent site
can certainly find it. 'The Power of Nightmares' is another of his
masterworks. There's a complete Curtis archive torrent out there, which is
probably among the most informative single downloads in existence.

~~~
Charlie_B
Those both sound very interesting. I'll see if there are any BBC archives
available, but you're probably right that they no longer exist legally except
at absurd price points.

There is a lot of literature around how consumerism and debt driven lifestyles
detract from our ability to live life in a more meaningful way, but I find
solutions lacking. It is my goal to eventually discover better ways of
structuring our lives and perhaps society to improve the quality of life in
the modern world, without eliminating the positive aspects of a competitive
culture and technological progress.

~~~
macavity23
I just discovered it is available in full on archive.org:
<http://www.archive.org/details/AdaCurtisCenturyoftheSelf_0>

Kudos to the beeb and archive.org for making it available!

------
lsb
Modern slavery is alive and well, but it isn't lusting after the newest thing.

It's child trafficking, illegal immigration to another country (and then the
company (or the pimp) holds your passport), and things of that nature.

Reminds me of [http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-am-so-starving-vs-i-am-
so...](http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-am-so-starving-vs-i-am-so-
starving,11541/)

~~~
Cushman
While people are starving, terrorized, enslaved and such, and that's really
bad, that doesn't necessarily mean there's no point in asking whether you're
any happier than you'd be as a subsistence farmer.^

If anything, a proper analysis of what really makes us happy could encourage
us to use some of our material wealth helping those who are truly oppressed.

^Spoiler alert: Probably not.

~~~
praptak
I understood GP's point as being about the use of the word _slavery_ (to
describe something that is not as bad as the real cases of modern slavery)
rather than about the whole article being pointless.

~~~
Cushman
That's sensical-- I guess my response would be that if we can conceptualize
different severities of murder, rape, theft et al., we're probably intelligent
enough to perceive appropriate gradations to the statement "If you stop
working you will die."

------
KevinEldon
I like the concept behind the article, that modern first-world society can be
a very subtle but powerful trap. But that is not slavery. Slavery still exists
today. There are more slaves today then ever. This type of article, and the
thinking behind it is helpful; it could help free your time and money up to
help people who cannot help themselves.

One organization working to educate people about modern slavery and fighting
to stop it is the Not For Sale Campaign (<http://www.notforsalecampaign.org/>)

~~~
Retreads
Thanks KE! This was my initial reaction as well. Sometimes it's nice to apply
abstraction in order to grease the wheels of reason, but abstraction has a
nasty double edge. ("Owner cared for well-being") does not equal ("Only
individual cares for well-being"). Not even a little bit.

------
brudgers
A few remarks:

1\. The author's points about self regulation are at the heart of Foucault's
_Discipline and Punish_ and in particular it's extension into Feminist
philosophy - i.e. the ways in which subjugation to power manifests itself as a
person's self-control. [<http://www.iep.utm.edu/foucfem/>]

2\. The idea of wage slavery is hardly novel, though quite revolutionary - see
Marx.

3\. One of the things which modern US society has lost is casual and seasonal
labor as we have moved from an agrarian population toward an urban one. One
needs only to hang around the drinking hole with Iowa farmers in January to
see how much a clock driven lifestyle affects our outlook [however you might
be better served to look in Phoenix for Iowa farmers come January].

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iksor99
It's interesting that a lot of people equate the modern world to slavery, but
this is the first article I have come across which partially agrees with that
assessment and still challenges it. I think it is correct in assessing that
slavery is not quite right (we have moved on) and yet there is still more work
to be done for freedom.

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Roboprog
Oh the wangst!

What is one supposed to escape _to_? The world is a bit crowded to support
very many hunter-gatherers. I heartily agree with minimizing debt so as not to
"become the lender's slave", but as many have pointed out, that is hardly true
slavery.

Our house is paid off, and so are our cars, though they are about 10 to 20
years old. In truth, we probably need to shed a few possessions, so it's good
to have a reminder, but the melodrama needs to be toned down a bit on this
article, so as to better expose the nugget of truth within.

------
Retreads
Thanks for posting. Something about this rubs me the wrong way, so I read it a
couple times to help me formulate my feedback.

I think the problem I have with this is that I can't create the same level of
abstraction on the 'modern system' and 'slavery' that the author does. I'm not
offended by the use of slavery as a point of comparison, but I don't think
that it's really compared to the 'modern system' in a useful way. They are so
many leagues apart, which can't be shown through the logical comparisons
present in the article.

Also, the examples of entanglement aren't really inescapable evils that the
argument requires (I'm looking at you car and iphone). I have no doubt those
evils are out there.

But, you say, I'm missing the point. True enough, and I think there's a good
point in this post that can be teased out through a little more revision. I
think the payoff is at the end...the portion on disentangling. This is the
hacker ethos, yes? Recognizing the artificial/restrictions and subverting it
to make your life better. The best part of the article was where the author
linked to his/her startup; it really shows where the logic is taking us. I
guess I'd prefer it if this were more explicit in the conclusion (and probably
more appealing to the people in this venue, although the many supportive
comments indicate that many make this logical connection automatically).
Again: Thanks.

~~~
guylhem
"Recognizing the artificial/restrictions and subverting it to make your life
better" - I think we all strive to do that. Like you, I have some reserves
will the article, but it definitely rings a bell.

Yet how exactly is creating a company any better? If you keep servicing other
people interest, it could be called an illusion of freedom. You will
compromise yourself at a time or another.

If you hire people to really get _your_ freedom, it's subjugating others, and
it may not be any better if you consider other persons besides yourself also
matter.

There's another great article on HN at the moment - passion and
professionalism
([http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6523/the_designers_not...](http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6523/the_designers_notebook_passion_.php?print=1)),
that explores this on a one-person basis.

Passion is great but it can become a self-imposed slavery too.

~~~
rick888
"Yet how exactly is creating a company any better? If you keep servicing other
people interest, it could be called an illusion of freedom"

If you sell a product or service, you get to choose what goes into that
product or service. Look at apple: If they listened to the general public, the
Ipad would have never been released.

" You will compromise yourself at a time or another."

You don't ever need to. Plenty of companies release what they want and it just
so happens to coincide with what other people want.

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rick888
Why do people have this mindset? You aren't forced to work for anyone.

If you feel that being an employee is slavery, start your own company. At
least for now, you still have the freedom to do this in the US.

Freedom means you have to take responsibility for your own life. If you rack
of $10K in debt and can't pay it back, you will be a slave to it.

I learned my lesson with debt years ago and haven't kept a balance on my
credit card since. It takes discipline to not live beyond your means and most
people just don't have this discipline and it gets them into trouble.

This is also why so few people are actually successful at business. They won't
stick it out when times get tough and give up when they aren't making a profit
right now.

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Charlie_B
Glad to see it on HN! Thanks for the positive feedback :)

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vannevar
I believe that the more common term for disentanglement is 'liberation', and
the freedom from entanglement is more commonly referred to as 'liberty'. I'm
not sure why the author used such roundabout language to make the observation
that both debt and employment restrict one's liberty, albeit voluntarily
(unlike the very different case of slavery, which is by definition not
voluntary).

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snitko
It's interesting, I recently realized that the word "work" in Russian is just
a derivative from "slave". Also interestingly enough, the word "slave" in
english has its roots from "slavs" - people who populated the area of
contemporary European Russia and were often enslaved.

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pietro
This is an insult to actual slaves.

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pagekalisedown
Seems like student loans would fall into this category.

