
Let’s ban elementary homework - umpaloop
http://www.salon.com/2016/03/05/homework_is_wrecking_our_kids_the_research_is_clear_lets_ban_elementary_homework/
======
woopwoop
The following is purely psychological armchair theorizing. I think that
homework is part of a larger problem where the modern education system slams
into children's brains that their time is worthless. Most elementary, middle,
and high school homework is simply busywork. The very existence of the word
busywork is telling. It's not just the wasted time that isn't valuable: it's
the implicit message to a child that the best thing they can do is find
something mind-numbing and pointless to do and just keep quiet.

You see this in lots of "nice" activities that kids do, which are actually
just time sinks that they are pressured or cajoled into. The most prominent
example is playing instruments. Like half of kids learn to play an instrument
at some point, but hardly any of them keep up with it when they are adults.
Some people lament this as though it were some loss of innocence, but if
playing an instrument was really a good use of time for most people, adults
would do it, and kids would do it willingly. After 18 or more years of this
sort of thing, I think it really sinks in that your time is basically
worthless, and that it's not worth carefully considering how you spend it.

Of course, the opposite is true. Your time is the most precious, and in fact
the only, resource that you have. You should guard it jealously, and only
spend it on worthwhile things.

~~~
e40
Do you have kids in school? Because I do, in a highly valued school district
(all 3 elementary schools in the top 20 in CA).

In this district it's two things:

1\. Parents freak out when their kids don't have a lot of homework. How do I
know? One teacher told me they got complaints if they assigned too little
homework, and complaints = being fired.

2\. Fear of not being good enough to complete in the rat race. This is on the
part of parents and it drives #1.

I had long discussions with the principal of my son's middle school and I
could tell he was completely powerless to make any changes. His job was to
listen to me and make me feel heard. Problem was, I wanted action. I made my
son update a spreadsheet, daily, of his homework per class. Estimated time to
finish and actual time. It was a lot of data and when I delivered it to the
principal he was a little speechless. He said he'd get back to me.

Btw, the spreadsheet proved one thing: the official amount of homework per day
was complete bullshit. Officially it was 1.5 hours. In reality it was 3-4.

Weeks later I saw him at a school concert. He looked annoyed. He thanked me
and said it was a "big help" and I could tell he thought he had more power
than he did. He probably showed it to the superintendent of the district and
they laid down the law. I never heard another word.

The problem is institutional, massively reinforced by the parents.

So we could ask, why are parents like this? One I touched on. The other is
fear of what their kids will get into if they have free time away from home. I
shit you not, I never see kids out and about in my city. On weekends, a
little. During the week, never. Kids don't have free time (here) anymore. They
have school. Some have sports and activities. The rest is eating and sleeping.

It is complete craziness and I hate it and I feel terrible for my kid, but I
can't afford private school and we're locked into this until he's out of this
particular system.

~~~
zargon
I'm curious... in elementary/middle school, what would the consequences be to
instruct your kid to not do homework? Is homework a big enough part of their
grade to prevent them from passing?

~~~
emidln
It depended on my teachers. I can only think of a couple classes where it was
a major part of my grade from third grade on. I distinctly remember not going
on field trips because I wouldn't have enough homework stickers on boards when
I was in grade school. I only completed homework that I could do before I left
school, and I never took anything home. I did this through college, including
writing papers, speeches, etc in non-demanding times of each class. I went to
a catholic school, so things like theology, art appreciation, and history
could be memorized at the beginning of the year, and then you had those
lectures to handle various science, math, and english homework. I never really
minded doing math problems or completing worksheets (it was always fun to see
how fast I could complete them, and I was always proud of being the first to
finish on worksheets or tests throughout school), but I loathed the idea of
spending any time outside of school working on school stuff. I finished middle
school with an 87 average and high school with an 85 weighted average.

This really fucked me in college. I never learned how to study, just how to
memorize things from a quick read and complete the minimum to pass a class.
When I went into an engineering college, this fell apart around the fourth
semester, as I was getting slower and slower during tests. Since I didn't
study and homework wasn't mandatory to pass (or so I thought), I never really
learned material until I saw it on a test. I learned a lot on tests (and I
like working under pressure), but as the difficulty of the material increased,
I wasn't able to teach myself at test time. This devolved quickly, and I left
college.

tldr; homework's portion of your grade doesn't matter. Learning the habit to
set aside time to work outside of what may appear to be required is the real
skill. If you choose to encourage skipping homework, please impart this habit
in some other way. It is not obvious to each individual, no matter how quickly
they might grasp certain subjects.

~~~
alistairSH
In high school, this was roughly my experience as well.

I did some homework during the school day, generally at the expense of
listening to the teacher lecture. Or, I jammed in some last-minute homework
over lunch (half-assed effort simply to get credit for having attempted
_something_ ).

It didn't impact my grades much. I was an A/B student, probably could have
been straight-A if I wanted to be, but preferred playing sports, or just being
a kid/teenager.

I had enough honors/AP course-work and extra-curricular activities to make up
for slightly less-than-stellar grades. I ended up at the top public university
in my state, alongside many of the straight-A students. Could I have gone to
Harvard or Stanford with better grades? Maybe. But I probably would have gone
to UVA regardless because of cost.

------
Someone1234
It is great to hear someone so prominent say this, and I hope it makes a
difference.

I will say, as someone who has worked in education, education as an area is
incredibly cargo cult-filled. Even educational research, and educational
theory is full of culty trends (that seemingly change entirely every few
years) and aren't what I'd call scientifically rigorous.

As this article itself says we've known since the 1980s that homework at that
age was harmful and we've known since the 1990s that older kids need a later
start, but has that changed anything? Not that I've seen, High School level
kids still start at 7:30am here and homework is still given to elementary
school-age kids.

Education has remained largely unchanged since the 1950s or before (technology
not withstanding), and we've likely spending more on educational research and
training now as we ever have, and what are the results? How much has school
really changed in our lifetime? If anything they've only doubled-down with
classical education being popular again, homework for homework's sake,
learning for the tests, heavily structured classes, and subjects which both
kids and staff call useless.

I just want to say I am not shitting on teachers. Teachers do a fantastic job
under difficult conditions and near constant criticism. This is a structural
problem, not a teacher problem. It is at the school district/state
education/educational research level, it is also somewhat intertwined within
teacher education itself (e.g. continuous learning, but learning this year's
latest trendy teaching technique which will be forgotten and discarded in a
year).

~~~
superuser2
I think it has less to do with bureaucrats than parents. Any meaningful change
to K12 pedagogy is met with vigorous opposition from parents because to so
many people, the only right way to teach is the way they were taught. See the
New Math of the 70s, the Common Core, etc. You cannot make a major change to
K12, good or bad, and get away with it.

~~~
Osiris
I see parents talking like this all the time. "Who can understand how they are
teaching kids to add these days?", but when I look at it what they are
teaching my kids, it fits with how I do it in my head vs. how I was taught to
do it on paper.

People are resistant to change even when they say they want change (politics
is a great of example of wanting "change" but having a fit when things
actually change).

~~~
sanderjd
Yeah I get really frustrated with this. It is one of the biggest struggles I
have with trying to figure out how to disagree forcefully, because I strongly
disagree with this sort of intransigence, without giving offense, because many
of those who hold these views are loved ones.

I feel like there is some deeper cultural problem afoot. Why don't educators
get the benefit of the doubt that other professions are given? I never hear
people decry the way in which their doctors are going about their doctoring!

~~~
humanrebar
> Why don't educators get the benefit of the doubt that other professions are
> given?

On a practical level, people understand adding but they don't understand how
the endocrine system interacts with the immune system and how diet affects
that interaction.

If it makes you feel any better, the programming profession isn't much better.

Personally, I love educators for sticking in there, but:

1\. There has been basically no major disruption in this field in at least a
hundred years. I have a hard time thinking of another field like this.

2\. I have no confidence that changes would happen even if someone figured out
how to teach kids twice as well with half as many teachers.

3\. Educators, as a community, aren't exactly scientific. For example, many of
them push for universal pre-K, which isn't exactly settled science.

------
nkrisc
I went to a Montessori school from kindergarten through 8th grade. Before 6th
or 5th grade we never had "real" homework. around 6th grade they started
introducing more structured and rigorous homework, and by 7th and 8th grade we
had homework that very closely resembled the type of homework we'd be doing in
high school (and as I discovered in high school, was more challenging
sometimes). Throughout all that time we never had desks. The majority of our
time was unstructured time with which to accomplish whatever tasks we'd been
given for the day. We could sit where we pleased as long as we were behaving
appropriately. At various times during the day one of the teachers (there were
two) would take a small group of kids aside for a lesson. I loved nearly every
day of school there and even now people who graduated 8th from there 20 years
ago still come to alumni reunions there, it had that great of an effect on
them.

I did take the power of hindsight, but I realize now how good my elementary
education was at that school. And how many kids don't get to have that same
level of education. It wasn't cheap, but it's a shame all kids don't get to
experience that.

The most important thing I learned there was how to think critically and come
to my own conclusions on matters.

EDIT: Now that I'm reminiscing, my favorite memory is over the course of a few
afternoons in 7th grade retreating to the comfy reading area and picking up
and reading the classroom's copies of Catcher in the Rye and Lord of the
Flies.

~~~
jasonkolb
My kids go to a Montessori school as well. My wife and I were sold on the
approach within the first five minutes we were in the classroom during the
tour. These were not wild kids being controlled by adults, these were small
adults being taught how to function in the world. They came up and shook my
hand and introduced themselves, took out and put away their own work, asked
for help, and were very polite when they needed a teacher's help. Once we
started looking into how the materials were structured and built from basic
concepts on up, we were hooked.

It's incredibly expensive but also well worth the sacrifice.

~~~
ensignavenger
"These were not wild kids being controlled by adults"

"It's incredibly expensive"

It is possible that the second obeservation has somthing to do with the
first... and perhaps more than the Montessori method itself does.

~~~
zerohm
Having money does not make a good parent.

Also, where we are Montessori was no more expensive than a Catholic private
school. But to my eyes, the Catholic school just looked like public school,
but obviously more upscale (and also teachers have more freedom, small
classrooms).

But I was attracted to to Montessori because of the methods. For example, if a
child is focused on an activity, the teacher will not interrupt them just
because 'geography hour is over' or some arbitrary boundary. Letting the kids
develop focus and concentration at an early age was a big selling point for
me.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
Not having money does make it hard to be a good parent: having time to spend
with your kids instead of working a few minimum-wage, non-school-hours, part
time jobs, encouraging them to explore and learn about things they find
interesting and funding this exploration as necessary, providing safe places
to be and healthy lifestyles are all hard to do when you're poor.

Clearly, having money doesn't make you a good parent. And you don't have to
have money to be a good parent. But it does undeniably have an impact on the
statistics.

~~~
zerohm
Agreed, but also I think expectation, confidence, ambition are as important as
opportunity. We have some relatives, from the outside they look like a totally
normal middle class loving family. But we saw time and again the parents talk
like, daughter is the smart one, son is the not-so-smart one. Telling him his
teachers are idiots etc. They just set that kid up for failure and it was
difficult to watch.

------
kickscondor
Anyone out there fact-checking this? Maybe I missed the comment. Quoting
Harris Cooper[1] (from the 2006 paper cited in the Salon article):

> "With only rare exception, the relationship between the amount of homework
> students do and their achievement outcomes was found to be positive and
> statistically significant."

Yeah so let's ban elementary homework, amirite??

> "Kids burn out," Cooper said. "The bottom line really is all kids should be
> doing homework, but the amount and type should vary according to their
> developmental level and home circumstances. Homework for young students
> should be short, lead to success without much struggle, occasionally involve
> parents and, when possible, use out-of-school activities that kids enjoy,
> such as their sports teams or high-interest reading."

I'd need to track down the whole paper to know for sure, but his attitude here
seems to advocate 10 minutes of homework (varied topic, positive, etc.) for
elementary school kids, in addition to the 20 minutes or so of reading time
they should have. This is what I see at the elementary school (public) where I
teach. And I think it works well.

Are we really railing against 10 minutes of homework for an elementary school
kid? I need this time - to check in with my kids when they finish and talk
about the answers together.

[1]
[http://today.duke.edu/2006/03/homework.html](http://today.duke.edu/2006/03/homework.html)

EDIT: Here's another synopsis of the same group of studies, but backed with
some actual data, along with recommendations for how homework could be more
effective.

[http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-
leadership/mar0...](http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-
leadership/mar07/vol64/num06/The-Case-For-and-Against-Homework.aspx)

~~~
Symbiote
Thank you! This discussion seems to be full of experts (everyone attended
school, after all) making sweeping, baseless generalizations.

I experienced what you describe, and it was never even called homework. It was
learning spelling, times tables, or reading a chapter of a book. Probably from
age 8-11, with no homework before age 8.

------
reedlaw
I agree 100% but what can be done if the schools don't agree? I live in a
small city in China and the middle school starts at 7:15am, has a 1 hour lunch
break at noon, and ends at 6:30pm. The kids are expected to finish a big pile
of homework every night. Often that means finishing after midnight and getting
up the next day at 6:00am. And this is just middle school! High school
students live on campus and get 20 minutes for meals. They can't leave campus
except for once a month to visit home. Basically the entire high school
experience is one big cram session. And what does this achieve? Upon entering
college, students experience freedom for the first time and many end up
addicted to computer games at night and sleeping through class during the day.
They may possess more academic information but in many ways are less equipped
than those who took a more laid-back approach. Not all Chinese schools are
like this and I'm sure they've improved things in the larger cities but it
will take years for better ways to trickle down.

~~~
argonaut
To be fair, I think the article is targeted more towards a western audience,
where things are less extreme. Also, the trend in America has been towards
more homework over time. Many American parents remember not having much
homework in elementary school (I don't think this is true for families in
China, where my impression is parents worked just as hard, if not harder, than
their kids)

~~~
reedlaw
I think the results apply to any culture. Excessive studying doesn't produce
the intended results. The trend has also been towards increased homework but
it's beginning to wane in more developed areas. I wish I knew how to
accelerate the trend because it's continuing to do harm to a generation of
kids.

~~~
argonaut
I was not commenting on the results. I was commenting on the person from
China's concern that Chinese schools would never agree. This is true. American
schools do not have to any degree whatsoever the same kind of homework-driven
culture as most Chinese schools.

------
mikeash
What baffles me is that we seem to have accepted that an adult's work should
be about five days a week, eight hours a day. If you go beyond that, you hit
diminishing returns and it may even be outright counterproductive.

Yet we put our kids in school five days a week, eight hours a day, then we
give them homework for nights and weekends!

~~~
accountatwork
> we put our kids in school five days a week, eight hours a day

Do kids spend 8 hours a day at school now? Back when I was in school, it was
9-3, including an hour for lunch, plus 5 minutes between classes. On top of
that, we got a lot more vacation than I've gotten at any job. If I do the math
on it, we spent a total of less than 1000 hours a year in school, less than
half the time I spend at work in a year.

~~~
hdctambien
At my school students have four 1.5 hour classes a day. Juniors and Seniors
can have 1 of those periods be an "off period" which they can use as a study
hall or they can just leave campus.

Plus lunch and 8 minutes between classes.

The school day is from 9 - 4.

This is very different from the school I taught at in Massachusetts which
starts before 7am and has seven 45 min classes (plus lunch).

It really all depends on your district. It seems many commenters here believe
that all schools work the same way their school works, but they are actually
remarkably different across the country.

------
kbd
I remember getting a ton of homework in _kindergarden_. I never did it, and I
always felt guilty about not doing it. I expected something bad to happen at
the end of the year, but nothing did. Lots of bad lessons for life were
learned that year.

------
_ph_
While not completely abolished, homework should be issued much more
cautiously. Most of the reasons against homework listed in the article are
rather signs of bad homework. Homework should mean that the child spends a
reasonable (depending on age) time to try to apply the (hopefully) learned
skills on her own and without supervision. Failure to do so should trigger
some interaction with the teacher, not punishment. For that reason, parents
should also mostly stay out of homework.

While traditionally school time in Germany ended at 1pm, there are now models,
where the children stay at school after lunch and working on their "homework"
in special sessions where some teacher is present for questions and
interaction, not taking any of the homework home.

------
Glyptodon
The 2 hour limit thing sounds fine, but I'm somewhat convinced that bad
assignments and poor materials have to play a large part in the overall
result.

At the very least I'm not convinced that reading a few chapters of an age
appropriate book or the odd creative project (draw something, etc.) or short
writing assignment can be bad (or take more than an hour).

On the other hand, I'm sure writing all 25 of your vocabulary words 5 times
each isn't particularly helpful. (This was the main homework assignment I
remember getting as a 2nd grader. I hated it because it made my hand sore
(possibly because I was always trying to do it as fast as possible) and was
boring.)

~~~
crusso
I've found over the years that my children's worst teachers were the ones who
assigned the most homework. Invariably, they supplemented their poor focus on
conveying concepts with lots and lots of homework.

A ton of homework is a smell that I've learned to look into in order to see if
I need to meet with the teacher and possibly talk to the school
administration.

~~~
stevesearer
I remember a math class from high school whose homework seemed like it took me
way too long to complete. Looking back, the teacher was actually one of my
best and the length of time I spent on that homework was more of a signal that
I didn't excel in the course or subject matter.

But then I had other teachers who assigned homework which was likely motivated
by a need to have things in the gradebook that weren't tests

------
bsder
Reading one age appropriate book per week has a huge compounding effect. This
is known and studied. That counts as homework and clearly refutes the primary
statement: "There is no evidence that any amount of homework improves the
academic performance of elementary students."

As in many things, there is a balance somewhere. You need some level of rote
homework to drive home basic concepts. Sorry--vocabulary, spelling, and times
tables, for example, need spaced repetition and learning them sucks. But they
suck whether you are 5 or 50.

However, I find this statement laughable: "Can it be true that the hours of
lost playtime, power struggles and tears are all for naught?" If doing
homework is a power struggle in elementary school, you're a poor parent and
are raising an entitled brat.

~~~
JoshTriplett
> However, I find this statement laughable: "Can it be true that the hours of
> lost playtime, power struggles and tears are all for naught?" If doing
> homework is a power struggle in elementary school, you're a poor parent and
> are raising an entitled brat.

Depends greatly on the reason. "I don't want to do homework because I'd rather
play video games" isn't generally going to fly (though having _some_ free time
is not something to discount entirely). "I don't want to do homework because
I'd rather be reading" seems a lot more more reasonable. "I don't want to do
homework because I already know all of this material and I'd learn nothing of
value by doing it" is often _completely_ reasonable, and a sign that either
there's far too much homework or the class is far below the student's level.

And, to put it bluntly, quite a lot of K-12 school _is_ a power struggle, and
an object lesson in how power can be abused when one side has no recourse.
Learning that meta-lesson, recognizing it as a problem, and finding ways to
solve it is a critical life skill. Long after K-12 school ends, adults
regularly encounter systems that are partly or completely broken. Sometimes
the correct solution is "screw this system", and other times the preferable
solution is "right or not, do I really want to pay the cost of fighting this
battle in this case, or should I choose to lose and deal with it despite being
right?". But 13 years of the former _always_ being the only option on the
table will not help people learn and maintain that skill, which will not help
people learn to find, fix, or build new systems that suck less, whether in
education or other areas of life.

~~~
Symbiote
If a child says they already know their elementary school homework, which the
GP said should be learning spelling or times tables, it's very easy for a
parent to test this. "What is 6 x 9?" "Umm."

~~~
JoshTriplett
And when the answer turns out to be that they can, in fact, prove it?

Also, at least today, that _isn 't_ the extent of most homework.

~~~
Symbiote
If they can do it, there's no need for further work. Or, perhaps, they could
read a book they enjoy instead.

Until a couple of years ago, the British government recommendation for
children aged 5-7 was 1 hour a week, which includes simply reading. There's
now no official guidance, schools decide themselves, but I don't think it's
changed.

------
JshWright
The article states:

"Before going further, let’s dispel the myth that these research results are
due to a handful of poorly constructed studies. In fact, it’s the opposite.
Cooper compiled 120 studies in 1989 and another 60 studies in 2006."

However, the 2006 meta-analysis explicitly says that all 60 studies had design
flaws. To quote the conclusion:

"We hope that this report has demonstrated the value of research synthesis for
testing the plausibility of causal relationships even when less-than-optimal
research designs and analyses are available in the literature."

------
blisterpeanuts
I agree. As the father of an 11-year-old 5th grader, I have absolutely no
qualifications to say that, except for how I see the excessive homework they
pile on ruining her childhood.

She should be out of doors riding her bike, exploring the woods, discovering
weird new bugs in the dirt, interacting with friends, reading books, building
stuff, play-acting, playing music, dancing, and generally being the amazingly
creative kid that she is, that most of us should have been, had that creative
spark not been quantified and tested and pigeonholed out of us by years of
dreary deadlines and shouting matches and power struggles.

The poor kids. I hated homework, school in general actually, for most of my
student life, and now I get to watch it crush the next generation. Very
jealous of the families who home school.

~~~
abecedarius
What might happen if you encouraged her to skip homework? Is there any
mitigation for whatever harms you'd see?

I'm just interested in ideas about this: I've been seeing schoolwork darken
the life of my niece; her parents are trying to help, and all I can do is
mention my opinion to my brother once or twice. I also think homeschooling
would be better.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
She'd start getting all these blue slips, then eventually letters and phone
calls from the teacher and the principal.

School is all-in or all-out. You either play by their rules, or go somewhere
else. I think for grade 6+, we're going to look around a bit but the reality
is, we're like most other families, too busy and stressed and not enough funds
to really do the right thing which would be home school, or else alternative
school.

But, maybe we will. She's worth it!

~~~
abecedarius
Good luck!

Yeah, I know there'd be a reaction from the school, but I wonder how much real
trouble it'd bring. (Of course it's _way_ easier for me to wonder than for you
all to try it. I hope I'm not annoying you here.)

When I was a kid I skipped a lot of homework -- for some classes in high
school, basically all of it -- which got me in some trouble with my parents
and got me kicked out of the honors English tracks twice (in middle school and
then in high school), but FWIW I still got into a good college via test scores
and (surprisingly) teacher recommendations. Unfortunately I can't claim this
would generalize -- these were California schools in relatively affluent
neighborhoods, and decades ago, and I'm not your daughter... and I'll shut up
now. But I hope this might've been vaguely helpful to hear.

------
chae
I think there's a fundamental flaw in this article, which is that it uses the
blanket term of "homework" to probably mean simple revision of theory taught
in class. Coming from a rural primary school where education was subpar, I
remember my Mum would make me do maths exercises from a book, with varying
levels of difficulty. She was say, "do this chapter", and then I would have to
read the entire chapter and work out the answers to the questions just based
on the reading - a fantastic exercise in problem solving at that young age.

There were annual mathematics competitions which placed your ranking compared
to other students in Australia, and - at the time I did that homework - I was
in the top 1%.

Fast forward a few years where we stopped doing maths exercises and just
started relying on what the primary and then subsequent secondary school
taught. My grades dropped, going from top 1% to 10% nationally and then lower
still. The reason was that I wasn't exposed to enough content from the school
itself.

Simply put, it is fallacious to argue that _less_ exposure to learning
materials puts children in better stead.

As far as the idea of disillusionment of children with the world goes: this is
more a function of teaching things in an interesting and real-world-applicable
way. Entertainment is the name of the game here, not less work. Kids are
inspired by what they find fun.

------
skolos
I have two elementary school kids. In my view the biggest benefit of the
homework is that I can observe if my kids lagging behind in some topics and
help them to catch up if necessary. Usually this happens because teachers did
not do good job explaining those topics.

So it looks like the homework in public schools is a stopgap for lousy
teachers.

~~~
labster
This is a stopgap that is only effective in cases where the parents are
knowledgeable and interested in their children's education and have free time
to assist. It would be better to do this from within the educational system,
because everyone would be covered. Team teaching, anyone?

------
ryanmarsh
In seventh grade science that year was "life-science" I don't remember shit
from that class. In fact the only thing I remember being taught before the 8th
grade was how to math, read, write, and some stuff about the presidents and
how a bill becomes law (which turned out to be a big fat lie).

Why are we so crazy about cramming so much info into the minds of children?
Short of reading, writing, and math what does a kid need to know that can't be
taught (probably faster) starting a bit later in life?

Shouldn't kids be playing with sticks and frogs and getting fresh air and
sunshine? Not having the creativity squeezed out of them in buildings that
resemble my office on the inside?

------
Gratsby
My school district has a limit - 10 minutes per night per grade. Then they
throw all the rules out the window in high school if you are in honors
classes.

I was skeptical moving into the district, but I'm actually kind of surprised
at how little of a difference it makes. Same grades, same progress, less
stressed kids.

~~~
nikhizzle
Where do you live?

~~~
Gratsby
Palo Alto

------
tominous
There are three key arguments in the article: homework saps intrinsic
motivation to learn, harms relationships at home, and has an opportunity cost
in sleep, rest and play.

It all makes a lot of sense to me, but I have one thought. In many activities
I find I need an initial period of tedious repetition before the fun part
kicks in. Things like playing an instrument, learning a language, and some
parts of mathematics. And nothing saps motivation at school more than being
behind the class from the start and completely lost.

So is there a role to play for homework in pushing through the hard part at
the beginning?

~~~
mafribe

       is there a role to play for homework 
       in pushing through the hard part 
    

Yep, you got it exactly right.

A N Whitehead has said it better than I can, so let's quote him: "Many think
we should cultivate the habit of thinking of what we are doing. The precise
opposite is the case. Civilization advances by extending the number of
important operations which we can perform without thinking about them."

Homework helps with repetition even for extrinsically motivated students,
which leads to the ability to perform without thinking, which is the basis of
mastery and enjoyment.

~~~
aantix
Maybe mastery, but enjoyment?

Einstein is quoted as "Never memorize what you can look up in a book."

~~~
tominous
In my experience it's impossible to enter "flow" in a task unless I've
practised to a certain level of automaticity. After that it becomes effortless
and very rewarding.

It's not so much about memorising facts for recall (boring!) but training the
mind for automatic action. Like offloading the grunt work to a subconscious
co-processor and letting you focus on the bigger picture.

~~~
aantix
In my experience, I just find things enjoyable. I stumble through them. Then,
because it's enjoyable, memorization of common tasks is just a byproduct of me
partaking in something that I enjoy.

Why would entering "flow" be a criteria for something to be enjoyable?

------
fredliu
Interestingly enough that just yesterday I read that the famous "ego
depletion" theory backed by tons of serious research might got debunked. And
today, "the research is clear" that we should ban elementary homework. I just
can't help but think how "clear" the research actually is....

~~~
abecedarius
I'm skeptical too. But getting lots of homework unquestionably imposes a high
cost on the children -- especially the younger ones. If you're forcing this
cost on the most powerless people around, shouldn't we insist on clearly
seeing the benefit?

Also, from my experience as a student my prior for that benefit is pretty low.
I went to what turned out to be relatively good schools for the U.S., and I
still think that before college they were mostly a waste of time that actively
turned people off learning. What I mean by skeptical, above, is that hearing
of these studies only shifts that opinion a little.

~~~
kazinator
I'm convinced that if I hadn't done all that mindless arithmetic homework in
elementary school, today I wouldn't be able to calculate a tip. Some material
just has to be practiced so that it is properly internalized.

If all you do is absorb lessons without the underlying practice, the material
will evaporate from your brain within a short time.

Imagine if you had only seen division or multiplication being done on the
blackboard by the teacher, and never practiced it. Today, you'd at best have a
faint, dim recollection of having seen such a thing, and you'd be powerless
without a calculator when confronted with some matter involving two digit
numbers.

We should also look at other things that impose a "high cost" on children:
spending hours playing video games or noses constantly buried in mobile
devices.

~~~
abecedarius
There was an HN comment thread about an experiment: some classes with _no math
lessons_ before, like, middle school or something. (Sorry I don't have the
link.) The experimental group soon surpassed the controls once they did get
into math, presumably because nobody tried to cram abstract procedures into
their heads at too tender an age making them think of math as unpleasant
arbitrary magic. This is about what I'd expect from both the idea of Piagetian
stages and actual acquaintance with average people who jettisoned most of
their school math as soon as they graduated.

I agree that you learn by doing and that teaching can guide you to learn more
efficiently and broadly, when it's done well. It can even benefit you when
mediocre, though the vast majority of schoolwork didn't pay its freight.

~~~
kazinator
That requires a follow-up: how much does the surpassing group _remember_ 30
years later.

In 2007 I got into keyboard; I learned a whole bunch of Bach pieces on the
piano in just a matter of months. I was surpassing the people who did years of
piano for many hours a day as little kids to get to the same stage!

I could rip through the two-part invention #13 in A minor, #8 in F, and
others. I got an old-fashioned wind-up metronome and was dropping that weight
lower and lower ...

Someone---LOL---asked me where I studied music. :)

Then I somehow dropped out of it, and stopped playing. Today, I can hardly
remember anything. I can get through a few bars of that Minuet in G, and then
draw a blank.

It was "fake" learning, in a sense. A flash in the pan epiphany that fizzled
away.

But I can wake up in the middle of the night and manipulate polynomials,
remember trig identities, do arithmetic like long division (and do it _fast_
), multiply and divide numbers in my head, manipulate fractions, logarithms,
you name it. It just stuck, from the years of steady practice.

~~~
abecedarius
It doesn't surprise me that after not playing for a decade you can't remember
the pieces you learned. I took a couple years of lessons and kept playing for
years afterwards, and now I'd never make it far into Invention #1 from the
Well-Tempered Clavier without the sheet music.

I doubt much of the math you're talking about was drilled into you in
elementary school and rarely used since. As a teenager and adult I'll do most
of that sort of thing in my head (not long division, normally); I didn't
bother as a younger kid, but it's kept coming up enough to be worthwhile, for
me; I wouldn't expect so for most people in today's society, which is sort of
a disappointing fact about society, but one that matters if you think of
people as free agents.

------
chris_wot
Hmmm... it's funny this. I think the pressure of completing set homework
causes a lot of pressure for young children. My daughter is now in year 3, and
I get her to do a small amount of homework but I've never pushed it and if
she's very tired or emotional then I see how she's going, and skip it if
things are too bad.

My son is in year 1, and he doesn't have very much homework (neither does my
daughter to be honest), but after getting him settled at a desk he just tends
to do it very quickly then run off and plays.

I found that for my daughter, I was able to imbue a love of learning when she
was in Kindy and year 1 by buying a whiteboard and getting her to do her work
on it. Also, my clear excitement and my own love of learning (I was and still
am studying mathematics) rubbed off.

In fact, I was going through Trigonometry again at one stage and she was
interested why there were circles and triangles on the whiteboard, so I
explained what an angle is and that trigonometry is the relationship between
angles and sides. I would say she was the only year 1 in her school who knew
what trigonometry was - I think her teacher was rather surprised when she used
the word, and even more surprised when she was able to explain what it
actually was! :-)

~~~
justinclift
Next, teach her radians. :)

~~~
chris_wot
Ha! First I'll need to explain circumference and pi

~~~
justinclift
She sounds like she'd be good with that. :)

------
astannard
I have a six year old, although this is not homework I do extra tuition with
her on maths because she wants to. She bugs me to set her maths questions for
her, because she enjoys them. I set them because she enjoys the challenge. I
think as long as children enjoy it and don't see it as a choir then its ok. If
they resent it though, then that's going damage their love for learning. They
need to enjoy learning for learnings sake. Homework needs to be optional, my
school also offer alternative pieces of work so the kids can pick one they
will enjoy doing the most.

------
href
My elementary school in Switzerland actually did ban homework in the 90s as
part of an experiment. I can't speak about my schoolmates, but personally I
wasn't too happy as a child. As soon as I hit high school we were bombarded
with homework and I always felt that I would have preferred to be prepared for
that.

At the same time we spent fewer and fewer hours in the classroom as school on
Saturday was cut and more special off days were introduced. I think teachers
working for these changes meant well but I'm not at all convinced it did any
good.

------
rogerthis
I'll post this without any real citation, except the word of a high-school,
then college teacher and neuroscientist i have known.

That teacher said: classes are not for real learning, but for getting the
first contact, or solving doubts. Homework is where the magic happens. Small
amount of (handwritten) homework, related to the same day class, and a good
sleeping night.

He also advocated for less class time, some school time for homework, and more
time of extra activities not related to TV watching or internet
procrastination. Also, reading, reading and more reading.

~~~
rogerthis
And for the sake of justice with the said teacher, 'cause my memory has been
betraying me these days, he said the homework discipline should only be
enforced after the 5th or 6th grade. Before that, kids should play outside.

------
unstipulated
Success likely correlates to life skills over IQ; to IQ over teaching; to
teaching over homework. Homework is not needed, not because it provides no
specific benefit (biased studies), but because it is the least significant
poorly understood thing. She doesn't state it as such because her audience
might not normally think statistically.

------
kazinator
This article reads like homework is something new.

Learning requires doing some exercises. There is no time for that in class,
because the class is for lecturing. If homework is handed out at the start of
the class, and you start doing it in class, then you aren't paying attention
to the class.

Homework isn't work to be done specifically at home, just work to be done
outside of this class, before the next class. Let's call it school work.

If the class is one hour long, three times a week, then that leaves 165 hours
in the week in which work for that class can be scheduled.

Homework should be reasonably brief, of course; it shouldn't have unnecessary
repetition of trivial material.

School should also be reasonably short. Classes should end at around noon.
Class work should be done after lunch, in lab classes dedicated to that work.
Then when school is out at, say, 3 p.m., the class work is done. Those who
goofed around in class work labs will have to do some of it at home.

~~~
pjlegato
Maybe a better idea than homework is to include mandatory "study halls" within
the actual school day, where kids are expected to work quietly and
independently on this followup work.

------
jdoliner
I'm among the group that has trouble questioning the validity of homework so I
tried to approach this article with an open mind. I have some questions
regarding what's actually being measured and over what period. In particular
how did they conclude that homework is harmful to students? They mention that
homework becomes helpful around highschool age. To me it seems that could have
as much to do with students having had several years of doing homework to
learn how to work effectively alone as it does with the homework being
different. Are we sure that by banning homework at an early age we wouldn't be
depriving them of the opportunity to get good at working alone and reap
benefits later?

That's an effect you'd see if the study was conducted over 10 years but not if
it was conducted over a single year.

~~~
ASpring
It's a meta-analysis and thus consists of reviewing many prior publications
that have widely varying methodologies.

------
hysan
You know what is a good homework assignment at the elementary school level?
Telling kids to do homework on whatever they want. Read a book (as mentioned
in the article), draw a picture, go to the library to look something up,
drills if they actually want to do that, write a journal entry, etc. This is
what the elementary school does as part of the homework where I live (Japan,
not US) and it works quite well. The elementary school ends up ranking quite
high in academic scores too. So it isn't hurting the development of the
children. I do wish they'd reduce the overall amount of homework, but I guess
you can't argue with results. It's still far better than what I see happening
back home in the States.

------
RUG3Y
I have kids in elementary school, I can wholeheartedly stand behind banning
homework for them. They're at school most of the day anyway, they're drained
when they get home, and we literally have dinner and do homework, and then
it's bedtime.

------
krasin
The article doesn't have a single reference to a research paper. It's entirely
possible to write a similar essay with an opposite title like "The research is
clear, let's keep elementary homework", and it would be just as convincing.

edit: a typo

~~~
chris_wot
I think you mean it _doesn 't_ have a single reference to the paper.

This is why it's detrimental to have all these Journal articles locked away
from public view. A researcher can make a claim that influences public
opinion, but the general public must pay a lot of money to actually review
what the claim is based upon!

The paper is, incidentally:

Cooper, H., Robinson, J. C., & Patall, E. A. (2006). Does homework improve
academic achievement? A synthesis of research, 1987-2003. Review of
Educational Research, 76, 1-62.

Luckily there is a copy of that article you can find here:

[http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Does-
Homework...](http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Does-Homework-
Improve-Academic-Achieve%C2%ADment-A-Synthesis-of-Research-FIXED.pdf)

The abstract reads, in part:

    
    
      No strong evidence was found for an association between the homework-achievement
      link and the outcome measure (grades as opposed to standardized tests) or the 
      subject matter (reading as opposed to math). On the basis of these results and
      others, the authors suggest future research.

~~~
krasin
>I think you mean it doesn't have a single reference to the paper.

yes, thank you for the catch.

~~~
chris_wot
No probs, I've done this myself on a few occasions :-)

------
uday99
I think the post doesn't make any sense. For example look at the kids that are
from India, who have rigorous syllabus and also homeworks. They CAN definitely
do better in University level entrance level exams and crack one of the
toughest exams in world called IIT JEE(Indian Institute of Technology- Joint
Entrance Exam)

First of all I can't imagine average joe from American schools to crack it(not
saying that few gifted/ self-home hardworkers can't get thru) at level of 12
grade.

And if the post advocates to remove that minimalistic homework..then I can
only wish to God save your children.

------
k__
I never did my homework and I always ended up getting in major trouble with
teachers who valued homework.

This did cost me some good grades. I got a worse grade for not making my
homework AND I got demotivated by it and did less for the class.

On the other hand, I was never really good at school. Only average. And after
I went to university I realized that doing this practical stuff at home helped
me more to understand it, so I would probably got better grades if I did
homework at school.

Luckily I found out that good grades aren't necessary to study computer
science. So I got my "dream" degree anyway.

~~~
themartorana
Studying for a degree and doing grade school level busy work are two different
things.

I never did homework either, where I could avoid it. There was other stuff I
wanted to do (as a child, mostly read for hours). I did well in school and
enjoy a fulfilling adult life, and am probably much better for how I chose to
spend my time.

That said, I had very invested parents, I probably "studied" more than I knew
because we went over stuff and regurgitated what we learned with our parents,
who were both educators, even while I avoided doing hours of homework. In that
way I was very lucky.

------
kazinator
Thinking about this overnight, I realized that this is a historic first.

For generations and generations, children have whined about homework. Of
course; nearly _everyone_ would rather play than work, and the goal of many
working people is to put together enough moola in order to get out of the rat
race permanently. People who win big lottery jackpots tend to say "oh, I will
still keep going to work; nothing changes". Doesn't last.

The historic first may be that now children are starting to have millennial
parents who do the homework whining for them.

------
agentgt
I don't think they should just throw out homework.

I have to imagine there is a huge difference between homework done with a
parent helping vs independent study.

I bet homework where the parent is involved is successful (at least it was for
me... and no not the parent doing the work) as it is basically extended school
time and I wish the study looked into that more.

Also what about an option to choose a particularly subject for homework. That
is give the child a choice of which subject to learn more about after hours.

------
coryfklein
The article uses Harris Cooper as a source for their claim. And yet Cooper
himself reports:

"there was generally consistent evidence for a positive influence of homework
on achievement" [1]

[1] Does Homework Improve Academic Achievement? A Synthesis of Research by
Harris Cooper et al.
[http://rer.sagepub.com/content/76/1/1.abstract](http://rer.sagepub.com/content/76/1/1.abstract)

------
EGreg
Yes! There is a place for homework: it should be group exercises done at
SCHOOL.

And lectures should be replaced with multimedia learning at HOME.

Here is my proposal I am working on. If anyone reads this and wants to join
me, email me:
[http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=158](http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=158)

~~~
stevesearer
It sounds like you're describing Flipping the Classroom:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom)

~~~
EGreg
Plus a daily testing regime, incentive structure for kids, and feedback loop
for lectures

~~~
charlieflowers
Start one in Atlanta, with a start time of 10 am and a reasonable tuition
price, and I'll sign my kid up.

~~~
EGreg
Seriously? If you don't mind, email me (qbix.com/about) and I'm interested in
speaking more about it.

------
debacle
Lets revisit the English curriculum and actually start teaching kids something
about the art of writing rather than literary analysis. English homework
(outside of grammar, writing, and spelling) has the lowest potential ROI out
of all homework, yet it always seems to be the most time intensive.

------
randyrand
How about lets have parents have more choice in their kids schooling?

Multiple choices within a district? Vouchers? Something!

------
kevinwang
As a former elementary student, I hated homework more than anyone, but how
could you deny the value of repetitive practice for things like writing with a
pencil and doing arithmetic? Although those things could be done in class
instead. Is that the point?

------
dj_doh
I can get behind this idea. Elementary homework, more like childhood stress
pill. Just replace them with more do-it-yourself type of projects.

------
gt565k
"Homework has no place in a young child’s life. With no academic benefit,
there are simply better uses for after-school hours."

Sorry, but that's just plain wrong!

It's not the amount of homework that's the problem, it's the quality. I've
been waiting to weigh in on K-12 US education for quite some time, so excuse
my long reply. I hope some find it informative.

Here I go with my Eastern European perspective on homework in grades 1-6.

My education in the US started in 7th grade, after completing grades 1-6 in
Bulgaria.

I studied German from grades 1-4, when enrolled in a music academy and played
percussion instruments (drums and xylophone), and also learned the basics of
playing the piano, and folklore dancing. I practiced playing percussion for at
least 2 hours a day and did homework for another 2-3 hours a day in those
grades.

During the Summer after 4th grade, I was taking private lessons in Math, as I
was applying to a specialized Math and Science school. In those private
lessons, I learned about linear equations, mathematical series (geometric,
etc), and how to derive their formulas, among other subjects that are
typically taught in grades 7-10 in the US.

After taking the placement exam, I got into the school, where I also had to
pick German or English. I picked English and had about 10-12 actual hours of
English classes a week.

Every day we learned 15-25 English vocabulary words, and for homework, I had
to write each word 20 times in a notebook, which was periodically graded by
the teacher. This was on top of learning grammar and memorizing short stories
(2-3 times a semester) that I'd have to recite for a grade.

I also had extra curricular Math classes on Saturdays that discussed special
math topics.

On average, I'd spent anywhere between 2-4 hours a day on homework for all of
my classes, sometimes a lot more.

That was in 5th and 6th grade.

Classes were taught in 2 different schedules. 7:30 - 2:30pm OR 11pm - 6pm.
Which alternated every semester.

Also, I had plenty of time to play around with kids in the neighborhood and
enjoy my childhood. That stuff you see in those youtube videos of Russian kids
climbing old abandoned soviet buildings and doing crazy parkour stunts? Yep, I
did all of those too!

Kids, especially in elementary school, should be taught the principles of hard
work and time management and be exposed to as many different subjects and
skills as possible. There isn't a better time for it, because the older you
get, the less free time you have to do the things you want!

The doom of american education is standardized scantron tests. Students should
be tested on how well they know and apply concepts, instead of how well they
can eliminate answers and guess the correct one.

Unfortunately you'll never see a student in the US be graded on his ability to
solve a math problem on the chalk board, or recite a poem, or history lesson
in front of the class. That is what I had to do in grades 1-6. It teaches you
to always be prepared, because the instructor can call on you at any time.

I had anywhere between 3-7 actual grades (marks) in most of my classes. Some
of them were impromptu examinations by being called on randomly to do a math
problem on a chalk board, explain the significance of a particular king/ruler
in history class, recite a poem in literature class, recite a short-text in a
foreign language class, and the rest were tests and midterms.

Compare that to the US, where you have 10 up to 20 graded assignments per
class in K-12.

I found homework assignments in 7-12 grade in the US to be a complete joke.
Fill out blanks on a piece of paper by copying them from the textbook or
complete a huge packet of boring mind numbing problems? What in the world?

I'll assume that's because those are easy to grade, but in reality, it's much
better to give fewer more complex assignments that require a lot more
knowledge and skills to complete. Quality over quantity!

~~~
vkou
You were spending time doing homework for what were essentially Grade 9-12
math classes.

Students in your age group in the US were still learning their times tables,
and counting jellybeans.

Notice that the article did not argue against the value of repetitive homework
for learning algebra, a musical instrument... Or for memorizing what is
essentially historic trivia.

~~~
gt565k
The article is advocating for a ban on all elementary school homework in favor
of "play time" and other things though.

~~~
vkou
With the current curriculum of elementary schools, it seems to be the course
of action that makes sense - since I strongly doubt that the Common Core will
add the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus to the Grade 6 curriculum...

------
ClayFerguson
All homework for kids is utterly stupid. Adults work 8hrs and come home and
are free. Asking kids to continue working throughout the night is freaking
stupid. Whoever thought this up was asinine. The only reason teachers assign
homework is because they are brainwashed and believe it's just part of life.
It doesn't have to be. All it does is make kids less and less interested in
perusing learning.

------
lintiness
nobody's going to read this, but there's a better idea on the individual level
(my political bias): why not instead of "banning" something we don't like, why
don't we teach our own kids to ignore / rebel against the idiot policy? you
accomplish more than the positive time / productivity / happiness return;
you've also taught the child that authorities and policies are often very very
wrong.

------
khattam
Let's ban Salon articles in Hacker News.

------
bobby_9x
This will only hurt the inner city students.

I know a few teachers in some really poor areas and many teachers have to
fight against unearning at home.

Homework helps with this. I also don't think a student can learn enough in the
classroom. With ever growing class sizes, students just can't get all they
need in terms of learning, without homework.

I just have to shake my head at one more thing that will put our future
generation behind the rest of the world.

~~~
gohrt
Homework is good because it solves the problem of schools and home being bad?

~~~
varjag
Homework is an imperfect real world solution to a real world problem. As
opposed to no real world solution to a real world problem.

