

European startups need to work as hard as Valley ones – or forget it - Harj
http://eu.techcrunch.com/2009/11/20/european-startups-need-to-work-as-hard-as-valley-ones-or-forget-it/

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Harj
we moved our startup from London to SV in Jan 2007 partly due to this line of
thinking. it is false, no-one _productively_ works 24/7 and trying to do so is
a mistake i don’t intend to repeat on my next startup.

the vision of the workaholic, always at their desk entrepreneur is in my
experience usually propagated by people with little actual operational
experience of raw startups. this post from Naval Ravikant sums up what i've
learnt about productivity, <http://startupboy.com/2005/11/29/the-80-hour-
myth/>

and on the london vs SV work ethic. my peers in london work just as hard as my
peers in SV.

~~~
DenisM
I think there is a popular ideology (perhaps of protestant roots) that makes
it "noble" to work long hours, hence why such stories are appealing to readers
(and writers). It's a kind of narrative fallacy which people use to explain
success without getting into too much detail: "he worked long hours he
succeeded, this makes sense to me logically and ethically as those who work
visibly hard are truly worthy".

If you want to create a great company it's best to seek proper work/life
balance that delivers best outcome over the entire period of the few years,
rather than optimize an appealing narrative.

The worst thing you can do it get trapped in the narrative yourself.

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stevoski
The article writer claims:

"obviously the absolute pool of talent is smaller here in the UK/Europe than
it is in the U.S. (and that cannot be disputed nor is it anything more than a
function of population)"

It can be disputed. I am disputing it. The writer needs to check his
population statistics.

Population of the US: 304 million

Population of the Euro area (therefore not including UK, Poland, and several
other countries): 329 million

Source: Eurostat U.S. Census Bureau, Population Division

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bumblebird
>> "As anyone who’s ever been there or visited will attest, in Silicon Valley
everyone is working _all of the time_."

BS.

Techcrunch swings wildly once again between quality journalism uncovering
scams in facebook advertising, to this sort of trashy rubbish.

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mjw
As a European this pissed me off a lot.

Looking at it from the other perspective, it's an example of how an
unhealthily competitive culture can lead to wastage; where everyone is forced
to work harder to keep up with the competition, but as a result everyone has
less time for culture, social life or sleep. Are you really any better off for
it as a society? Where does the extra value go if there's no time to enjoy it?

Also: a lot of hungry people chasing each other's tails in increasingly manic
circles, does not necessarily make for technological innovation with lasting
value to society. Some of it might, but I imagine a lot of it just contributes
to the "technology treadmill", or to burn out, or to poor ideas conceived
after 4 hours sleep...

One other thing: a lot of european cities are great, beautiful places to live
with a lot of culture going on. You don't pay a premium to live in these
places if you want to spend 12 hours a day working (or at least if you do,
you'll go work for a bank where the pay's much better).

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seregine
TechCrunch said the same thing about Seattle a year ago. It sure was effective
at generating links back to TechCrunch.

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johnrob
Companies that seem to be 'slacking' probably just haven't achieved product-
market fit yet. If a company has achieved this, and is growing like a weed, I
doubt the employees will be 'coasting'. Greed will take care of that.

So, I'd be willing to bet that the referenced companies are still trying to
figure out what they're really going to build. Don't blame the employees, this
is the job of management.

I could be wrong of course. Are there companies that are growing rapidly that
have problems motivating employees?

~~~
gizmo
In Europe it's quite usual to refuse business when you're busy. A lot of small
businesses never grow larger than 10/20 people; after that the owners are
satisfied and have enough money for a comfortable lifestyle. Companies don't
fail catastrophically fail here, they just peter out.

The entrepreneur that "dreams big" is the exception. And people with
entrepreneurial aspirations are themselves exceptions. I think I read an
article in the NY Times a while back that over 70% of MIT students are
interested in business, and that 30% or so take a stab at it.

Over here in Europe many college kids subscribe to the "profit is evil"
philosophy and starting a business is "something they maybe want to do some
day".

~~~
mjw
> After that the owners are satisfied and have enough money for a comfortable
> lifestyle. The entrepreneur that "dreams big" is the exception.

What exactly is wrong with this?

The marginal value of money decreases significantly once you have enough to
live comfortably.

Also big companies aren't an end in themselves; a thriving economy full of
profitable small-to-medium businesses is not a bad thing.

~~~
gizmo
I wasn't even suggesting that there's anything wrong with that approach.

Needless to say, if you're a VC you want to fund people who want to create a
company that can get a big exit. And people with those aspirations are few and
far between in Europe.

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greyman
I am from Europe and several of my colleagues went to work to our USA branch
(within the same corp). They told me the same thing I am reading in the
article - in USA, they work harder and more hours per day. And we are not a
startup!

[By contrast here in the UK I’m well aware that the legal requirement is 20
days (4 weeks’ worth!) and _everyone_ is keeping track — and actually taking
them!]

This is funny - I am really surprised that the author is surprised about that.
;-) Of course, I take those full 4 weeks, and I am also required to do so,
otherwise the company would have to pay me extra money for those days, which
they usually do not want to do. We are also encouraged to take at least one
two-weeks long vacation "to fully recover". Moreover, in my country we have as
much as 15 non-working days (state holidays).

Anyway, I'd like to hear some perspective of you living in USA - it is really
enough for you to have just 10 days of vacation per year? Is that number even
correct? And... what you think is the actual reason that working so many hours
and days per year is valued so much? What's the point - to make more money, or
to prove oneself, or is it just a best spended time? I am really curious to
learn more about it.

~~~
onewland
I get 12 vacation and 5 sick days/year, plus a few (maybe 9) holidays off. I
think I'm probably at about the median of vacation days for a standard
American professional (maybe on the low end for the software industry).

I like the month plan better. I think there's a split in ideology here. A lot
of people think we lose our competitive edge if we take more vacation. I think
we'd really be at about the same productivity level but a lot happier. I
think, in general, we're heading to the more leisurely schedule that you guys
are. And I think that in talent-based work, a more leisurely schedule will
bring about better quality and productivity.

~~~
robryan
I always thought the 4 weeks compulsory time off in Australia (same as UK I
guess) was on the low side. I mean if you don't get some time every year to
sit back, take a holiday and enjoy what are you working for?

I guess there is a big difference between doing a job you love and being stuck
in something to.

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rjprins
In China they work even harder for less money. From my European perspective it
is all about how much you are willing to sacrifice for your job. Because no
matter how much you love your job, it's still a sacrifice. As an inidividual
I'm more concerned with the quality of my life than the local quality of
investors options. This guy is simply pushing is own agenda here, and the
people insecure enough to listen will work harder. Which apparantly is
everyone in SV. But without a proper social safety net in the US, I can very
well imagine.

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hencjo
From the article: "Something I’ve realised and have to admit is that while
obviously the absolute pool of talent is smaller here in the UK/Europe than it
is in the U.S. (and that cannot be disputed nor is it anything more than a
function of population) another factor."

\- Last time I looked there was 300M people in the US and 500M in the EU.

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koevet
I'm Italian, currently living in Paris. I have worked in small and large
companies (even startup) all over Europe and I hear what the British VC says.
I totally feel that in Europe personal life is way more important that the
professional one and most of the people doing tech work are not passionate
about it. Europe working culture is very much about "how many days of holidays
I have left", bittered employees and clueless managers.

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sandrogerbini
There is certainly a correlation between a competitive environment such as
that in SV and elevated work ethic, but is this really something that is so
unique, geographically speaking? Why does the author and philip Letts (see the
comments on site) seem to think that such a condition is impossible to
replicate elsewhere?

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Daishiman
Being able to speak about workplace legislation of taxation in the EU would
have been a topic of interest on founding a startup. However the author chose
to squander the article on meaningless speculation.

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haasted
Is it intentional that the link is to a comment below the article?

~~~
Harj
no, fixed

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speby
Seriously? There's even concern over whether startups "work as hard" Silicon
Valley ones?

If that's where they're at, then there is almost no hope? The concept "working
hard" is just ingrained in entrepreneurship. If you don't work hard, work
smart, then you aren't really an entrepreneur; you're something else.

