

Ask HN: Would you join a trade union? - jeangenie

I have often wondered whether such a thing would be beneficial. Sometimes it does seem things have swung too far in employer&#x27;s favor but are there better ways of asserting individual rights than this?<p>All opinions and discussions are welcome whether you agree or disagree.
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jasonkester
No, of course not.

We're in the single best market for developer talent that has ever been, where
a guy who is provably good at what he does can negotiate rates at double,
triple, even 10X the going rate for a senior developer. In that light, what
sane person would voluntarily pin himself to a Union-esque system where he is
paid on a scale determined by seniority?

Ask a simple question, get a simple answer: The bottom 50%.

If you're provably bad at what you do, or are unable or unwilling to negotiate
your way away from the middle/bottom of the pack then yes, maybe, a union
might make sense. But leave the rest of us out of it.

It's just too good here. The last thing we want is some fool to come by and
ruin it.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
Hollywood actors and NFL players have essentially 100% union participation.
That hasn't prevented the top performers from negotiating exceptionally high
pay.

There is no reason to expect a union of software developers to rigidly follow
the example of blue collar unions.

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mrfusion
Here are some ideas I'd like to see a union fix for our industry:

Agesism in tech

Non payment for employees or contractors

Protect programmers refusing tasks on ethical grounds

Establish ethical standards

Better working conditions - quiet offices, not open floor plans

Working from home when practical

minimum vacation time (not pooled with sick days)

No 2 day exploding offers

Dignity in job interviews

(Can you guys think of any more?)

~~~
sarciszewski
This sounds like the exact sort of question that tptacek would have a lot of
insight to offer.

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hackerboos
Here in the UK the relationship between unions and business has always been
hostile and unproductive and since the 1980s the unions in the UK have been
stripped of any effective power.

I think if our unions were more like Germany's which have board representation
and pay determined by collective bargaining - then I'd be more inclined to
join.

Another difference between the UK and Germany is what happens to workers when
technological innovation occurs. For example there have been strikes by the
RMT union against driverless trains on London's underground.

Initially this appears to be counter-progressive, striking against what is an
advancement in technology. In Germany these workers would be retrained so that
their careers would not be destroyed. The UK does not retrain workers when
they are made redundant.

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jpetersonmn
I wouldn't join a union, but I would donate money to a lobbying group that
lobbied for tightening restrictions on visas. I understand getting a visa if
you truly can't find the talent you're looking for in the US, but companies
just do it for cheaper labor and are exploiting the system.

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mrfusion
Here's a recent article I came across that makes some good arguments:

[http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/it-might-
be-t...](http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/it-might-be-time-for-
software-engineers-especially-in-silicon-valley-to-unionize/)

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hcho
Trade unions make sense when the employer has disproportionate power over its
employees. That's typically shallow employment markets with a single
dominating employer.

Dev market in most places are efficient enough; so no I wouldn't.

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JSeymourATL
We live in an age of disinter-mediation.

Adding a new middle-man into the talent/employer mix sucks value out of that
relationship. You can always assert your rights by employing your talents
elsewhere.

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27182818284
No. I'm _pro-union_ , but I also know how slow unions can be. I enjoy the
speed at which technology is moving and I think that adding in unions,
although it would add a host of great qualities, would also bring about
undesirable problems.

I can't reconcile a Bar-like association or a trade union with the wonderful
stories of things like Apple starting in a garage or Facebook by a student, or
the super coders like RMS programming a new gigantic feature to Emacs in a
10-hour sprint.

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MalcolmDiggs
It'd be nice if freelance tech folks could pool their resources and get group
health-care rates... but I'm not sure if a full-on union would be needed for
that.

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mrfusion
There was a previous discussion on this topic here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8384641](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8384641)

