
Detroit by Air - prostoalex
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/07/opinion/sunday/exposures-detroit-by-air-alex-maclean.html
======
dylanbox
Detroiter who works at a tech startup here in the city: great bit of
photography and a really interesting message, but there is one notable absence
in the contrast between the haves and have-nots is in the city of Detroit.
There's a huge wealth gap between Detroit and the surrounding suburbs, but
there's a pretty big one in the city as well.

There's plenty of investment and activity happening in the "Downtown
Development District" than the surrounding neighborhoods, which were hit the
hardest from population decline. There's plenty of money and attention that
goes to typically young and white tech startups that have recently located
(myself included) while other (typically minority) entrepreneurs are left out
of the narrative of the "rebirth" of Detroit. It's a lot about race, politics,
and access to capital, but it's going to be readily apparent in a few years
which areas have been given preferential treatment from state oversight (and
tax-write-offs) and local investment.

~~~
personZ
_It 's a lot about race_

You just made it about race, but really it's talent pool and demographics and
education/skill levels. If a software group moves to downtown Detroit, it
seems destructive to hold that as a _negative_ , as if having some bright
spots is somehow a negative because that software group doesn't hire the pipe
fitter with the a grade 7 education.

~~~
dahart
No. The story of Detroit's decline and it's comeback has been about race for
_decades_. Talent pool, education, demographics, and skill levels in Detroit
are a function of race, which dylanbox has experienced first hand and shared.

[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit#Race_and_ethnicity](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit#Race_and_ethnicity)

~~~
personZ
The context of this discussion is the "rebirth" of Detroit, not race riots or
the 1950s. If Detroit's rebirth is a high-skill, high-tech industry, the
exclusion of many Detroit residents has everything to do with skills and
education, and absolutely nothing to do with race.

~~~
dahart
Quoting Wikipedia: "Detroit remains one of the most racially segregated cities
in the United States."

This is about today, not about the 1950s. The rebirth of Detroit depends in
part on the racial conditions that led to today, and the racial conditions we
have today.

"De facto educational segregation in Detroit (and by extension elsewhere) was
legally permitted by the U.S. Supreme Court in Milliken v. Bradley, 418 U.S.
717 (1974).[42]"

How do you expect skills and education to have nothing to do with race when
Detroit's education system is bounded and defined by race?

~~~
personZ
This is an absurd extrapolation. By this definition we can say that literally
_everything_ is "a lot to do with race". Is that useful?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
If true, then yes, it's useful to note, and to say.

------
mojoe
My younger brother recently graduated from college and got a software
development job in Detroit. It's nice to see pictures that provide a feel for
what Detroit currently looks like.

From what I've heard, there is a trend for bootstrapped startups to move to
Detroit to take advantage of the low cost of living. Unfortunately the lack of
public services in some places is scary, but it seems like things are
improving post-bankruptcy.

~~~
therobot24
Off topic question - i've seen the phrase "bootstrapped startup" at lot, but
am unsure of it's meaning. I'm familiar with the web-template 'bootstrap', but
not sure how it sets one startup apart from another. Does it mean that they
are they funded and out of "stealth mode", or that they specifically use the
bootstrap template (meaning low cost, potentially unfunded)?

~~~
hboon
Refers to a startup that is funded by the founders and from reinvesting the
profits of the startup, rather than funding from angels and VCs. It comes from
the term bootstrap used in computing.

~~~
smcl
I think it may actually be from the idiom "to pull yourself up by the
bootstraps" meaning to succeed depending solely on yourself:
[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pull_oneself_up_by_one%27s_boo...](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pull_oneself_up_by_one%27s_bootstraps)

~~~
efraim
That is precisely where the term comes from in computing. A computer that is
booting up is starting itself up.

------
cwal37
Detroit seems to be turning the corner at the bottom of a decades-long
economic slide, but there are also some interesting long-term environmental
trends that I think bode well for it and many smaller rust belt towns. Most
pressingly, a lot of those towns are directly on arterial waterways and
receive copious amounts of rain. So you get extremely cheap transportation of
goods, and you also just have a water supply in general.

There may have been a great migration to the Southwest over the last 40-50
years, but it's hard to picture a scenario where that area's ecological
budgetary chickens don't come home to roost at some point. Then, Detroit and
other communities like it become significantly more attractive.

~~~
andor436
One major issue for Detroit, assuming it can emerge from bankruptcy and state
management, is how to provide reasonable levels of services to a vastly-
reduced population density. Other Michigan cities (like Flint) are facing
similar issues.

Check out [https://motorcitymapping.org](https://motorcitymapping.org) and
[http://report.timetoendblight.org/](http://report.timetoendblight.org/) \-
good ways to see the scope of the problem.

~~~
roc
> _" assuming it can emerge from bankruptcy and state management"_

Assuming?
[http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/05/detroit...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/05/detroit-
bankruptcy-manager-resigns/19961603/)

Edit: I'm downvoted for pointing out that the exit is all but finalized and
thus "assuming" is an unnecessary qualifier?

~~~
andor436
I didn't downvote you, and your point is valid. Relevant:
[http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2014/12/governor...](http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2014/12/governor_approves_end_of_emerg.html)

So some good news!

I haven't read much on plans for restructuring the city and the various city
services once all the vacant structures are removed. Anyone else?

------
mousa
Those blocks with one or two houses are so weird. Looks like sim-city.

------
lchengify
The Packard Plant caught my interest so I looked it up [1]. Most of the plant
is structurally sound: Renovations started in October to turn it into a mixed
use art / manufacturing facility [2].

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_Automotive_Plant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_Automotive_Plant)

[2] [http://www.wxyz.com/news/region/detroit/demolition-and-
rehab...](http://www.wxyz.com/news/region/detroit/demolition-and-rehab-begins-
at-the-packard-plant)

~~~
percept
You might find this interesting:

[http://vimeo.com/39346092](http://vimeo.com/39346092)

------
rmason
Detroit was hit very hard by the 2008 real estate collapse. Here's a blog
showing pictures before and after. You can see a stretch of houses that were
occupied and doing fine in say 2006 and just a bare stretch of ground five
years later.

[http://goobingdetroit.tumblr.com/](http://goobingdetroit.tumblr.com/)

~~~
pyre
The city of Detroit was in a financial crisis back to _at least_ 2004\. I
believe that it was the 2004 Census that put the city below 1M people, which
lost them a lot of Federal dollars.

~~~
maxerickson
It's reasonable to look as far back as the 1970s/1980s when the net population
of Wayne+Oakland counties stopped increasing:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_County,_Michigan#Demograp...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_County,_Michigan#Demographics)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_County,_Michigan#Demogr...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_County,_Michigan#Demographics)

The decline didn't quite start then, but the drop in population is certainly
one of the big contributing factors.

------
dionidium
A few random thoughts reading this as a St. Louisan. Similar views can be had
here:

[https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6349498,-90.2105613,1547a,20...](https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6349498,-90.2105613,1547a,20y,41.29t/data=!3m1!1e3)

That same neighborhood from the ground:

[http://instagram.com/p/qZ9CXbhAXu/](http://instagram.com/p/qZ9CXbhAXu/)

Also, noticed some tags that are present here, too. For example, the REFT in
that shot of the Eastern Market District. Here's one from St. Louis:

[http://instagram.com/p/vMiNSnhAT-/](http://instagram.com/p/vMiNSnhAT-/)

------
zenocon
As a local, it is encouraging that what the pilot sees from the air, I also
see from the ground:

> _From the air today, the decline appears to be slowing. The spaces once
> covered in rubble are cleared and mowed. Open green spaces, along with new
> community gardens and orchards, look almost bucolic against the downtown
> skyline. From my plane, I sense the potential for resurgence in these
> areas._

> _I think that the inner ring of Detroit will win out in the long run, as
> cities are and will continue to be the greenest places to live on a per-
> capita basis._

It is really, really hard to bring a city back from this, but it is happening
here.

------
FunCaptcha_Jim
As I live in Australia, to see a city like this in such a state is saddening.
Of course, everyone has heard stories of Detroit's issues but to see them so
starkly pictured is pretty confronting. What's the current economic state of
Detroit? Is it still in decline or is there reason to be optimistic?

~~~
dubfan
The city government is just beginning to emerge from bankruptcy, so there is
some hope there. But they still have a chicken and egg problem: the city has
to provide a reasonable level of services to attract businesses and their
workers, but they need the tax base to provide those services. What the
solution to that will end up being is anyone's guess.

~~~
secabeen
And the double-problem is that given the pictures, they clearly have 5-10
times more streets, sewers, electric poles, to maintain than they would have
with a compact city.

~~~
tempestn
That is definitely a huge problem. If the city had money, I wonder if it would
be efficient in some areas to try to buy out the remaining residents so that
they could essentially "shut off" entire neigborhoods.

~~~
elithrar
> so that they could essentially "shut off" entire neigborhoods.

Just to add to the complications: they'd almost have to–due to either social
pressure or environmental pressure–demolish the streets/poles/etc as well,
else they still pose a maintenance requirement and an eyesore.

------
johnvschmitt
I was born there. It's sad, but hopeful.

The "Renaissance Center" (celebrating the rebirth of the city) was built in
1980. The last 34 years, I've heard stories of the "inevitable rebirth" of the
city.

It's just so sad. For 34 years, a few people are hopeful while the city still
declines.

Detroit has so many good things going for it: An international border. A water
trade route to the Atlantic. More fresh water resources than any other state.
Rail lines that are well connected to Chicago and the East Coast.

What's really sad for me, personally, is the realization that for so many
other challenges, like the CA drought, Global Climate Change, etc, we need
tons of capital and work. But IMO, for Detroit to get "fixed", we just need a
change of MIND (which can be more difficult than getting sustainable energy,
but seriously, could change in 1 day, for free, if we had MLK Jr. type people
on the ground).

So, in short, it's people's minds that are killing Detroit. We desperately
need to change minds there. In Silicon Valley, all races collaborate, live &
work together, and we thrive. Please let's try to export that culture to
Detroit soon.

~~~
SwellJoe
_" Detroit has so many good things going for it: An international border. A
water trade route to the Atlantic. More fresh water resources than any other
state. Rail lines that are well connected to Chicago and the East Coast."_

TIL Detroit would be an awesome capitol city in Civ V.

But...how much do those things matter in a modern world?

I think I agree with the basics of your assertion about racism playing a role
in what's wrong with Detroit. But, I think you have rose-colored glasses about
Silicon Valley. There is class warfare happening in the Bay area, just like in
every major city, and poor people of color are coming out with the short end
of the stick.

~~~
johnvschmitt
In SV, it's less about color, and more about education. Yes, that's IMO, not
fact, OK? But, seriously, I've worked with 1,000+ people in Silicon Valley,
and >50% of them are not white. So, Indian, Chinese, and other "colors" can be
extremely prosperous here. The market doesn't care about "color", as much as
their education, passion, and collaboration. To raise people out of poverty,
it is more about attitude than physics. The attitudes in Detroit are far more
toxic than the minor class warfare in SV.

~~~
angersock
So, what about hispanic and african americans?

There's a world of difference between the kids brought up to choose between
pre-med and pre-law, and kids brought up to stay away from the cops.

~~~
melling
Those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Education is the way out of
poverty. America provides more opportunities than most other countries.

------
l33tbro
Detroit is the perfect microcosm of the US wealth polarity trend. Only a few
miles from the "ruin porn" live suburbs like Bloomfield Hills - which has the
fourth highest income out of any suburb in the US (1).

I'm hopeful that the Retroit movement (2) finds traction with young
entrepeneurs. There's certainly a cachet that the city has within the popular
imagination. Just look at what foreign vodka companies are doing to cash in on
Detroit's "authenticity" (3).

(1) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-
income_places_i...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-
income_places_i..).

(2) [https://re-urbanization.squarespace.com/](https://re-
urbanization.squarespace.com/)

(3)
[http://www.mlive.com/business/detroit/index.ssf/2014/08/ourv...](http://www.mlive.com/business/detroit/index.ssf/2014/08/ourv..).

~~~
wtbob
> Detroit is the perfect microcosm of the US wealth polarity trend.

 _Au contraire_ , Detroit is a perfect microcosm of absolutely abominable
government and culture. Sure, this has led to wealth disparity, as anyone with
the means to get out, has. But the root cause is awful governance.

~~~
jrochkind1
So you realize that "anyone with the means to get out" of Detroit started
doing so 1968ish after the riots, and it in fact is what caused the population
and economic decline of Detroit?

One really did come before the other, and it was the exodus of white people
(followed by the auto companies) before it was the collapse of the city or any
accusations of 'abominable government' (and 'culture', what?).

It's kind of just what happened.

~~~
Shivetya
They only left when the politicians forgot their job and instead served to
stir up resentment and worse. They served themselves instead of the people,
Detroit like many similar cities is an example of where politicians and
government employee unions put themselves first before the citizens. However
unlike cities like New York the money ran out.

Politicians have learned to use diversity to drive a wedge to keep and gain
more political power. The divide us, hyphenate us, and make victims, all so
they can keep their power.

~~~
melling
I'm not from Detroit so would it be possible for someone to provide references
to any claims? People are just offering opinions. Having watched the news all
my life, all I saw was that Detroit followed the auto industry, which did well
when big cars did well.

~~~
jrochkind1
There were riots in Detroit in 1967, as in many American cities in the late
60s (Detroit's was actually one of the first of that trend).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Detroit_riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Detroit_riot)

A white exodus from Detroit immediately followed. You can see in the wikipedia
decade-by-decade population statistics that Detroit's population loss began
between 1960 and 1970, and continued -- and further, with the racial
breakdown, that the population loss was almost exclusively white people, with
the black population actually continuing to rise through 1990.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Detroit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Detroit)

Although, in fact, you can see in the figures above that white (but not black)
population of Detroit had actually already started to drop between 1950 and
1960, it accelerated significantly, and amazingly quickly, after 1967.

Here's a good popular article on the history of race relations -- and white
disinvestment and abandonment -- in Detroit, blaming white abandonment for
Detroit's current distress. [http://www.epi.org/blog/detroits-bankruptcy-
reflects-history...](http://www.epi.org/blog/detroits-bankruptcy-reflects-
history-racism/) I strongly recommend this short readable article.

Coleman Young, the first African-American mayor of Detroit, served as mayor
from 1974 to 1994.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_Young](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_Young)

As that wikipedia article says, "Young's tenure as mayor has been blamed in
part for the city's ills, especially the exodus of middle class taxpayers to
the suburbs, the emergence of powerful drug-dealing gangs, and the rising
crime rate." The accusations you see in this thread of 'government
mismanagement' began with Young's long tenure. Whether they are right or wrong
(I'm not a huge fan of Young myself), in fact white flight (which is the
entire nature of Detroit's population decline, as the wikipedia demographic
statistics show -- black population continued to rise for decades as Detroit's
overall population plummeted) began _long before_ Young's election, so can't
be a response to any mismanagement from Young's administration.

Shivetya's claim that "They only left when the politicians forgot their job
and instead served to stir up resentment and worse," is typical (and is
typical in being about race while avoiding using racial words; 'abominable
culture', oh? Sadly, I don't think he means an abominable culture of white
supremacy. 'stir up resentment', eh? Gee, what could black people in Detroit
have had to be resentful about, unless it was artificially 'stirred up'? I
suspect people saying such things feel similarly about Ferguson) -- but gets
the order of history of wrong. I suppose you could blame Young (or subsequent
black mayors) for not managing to reverse the disinvestment trend (although,
then, the U.S. auto industry started shrinking and what was left leaving
municipal Detroit, which was going to be a problem no matter what; although
the fact that the auto industry too increasingly moved to the suburbs is
actually part of the 'white flight' story) -- but it's simply a historical
fact that the disinvestment trend pre-dated black control.

If the people in this thread blaming bad municipal government really mean
pre-1967 white municipal government they should say so and explain what they
mean -- but generally the people making these arguments (with barely coded
racial terms) mean the post-1974 Coleman Young administration -- but by the
time Young took power, the white exodus was already massive, which is what led
to his election in fact.

Nobody's gonna read this tldr post in deeply nested not highly rated part of
this comment thread, but you asked, so I give you what you ask for, cause this
shit pisses me off.

~~~
bglazer
Well I read it. The situation in Detroit sounds remarkably similar to the
situation in Memphis. Instead of race riots sparking massive white flight, we
had desegregation and busing. Immediately, there was a huge exodus to the
suburbs. Within 5 years of busing, Memphis had the largest private school
system in the country. .

Interestingly, Briarcrest, which is the private school in Memphis that "The
Blindside" is based on, is a Southern Baptist school founded immediately after
busing. Its legacy is one of overt racism, which I thought was nicely
whitewashed in the movie's narrative of white saviours rescuing Michael Orr.

Additionally, Memphis' first black mayor, Willie Herenton was mayor from 1991
to 2009 and has had much of the city's slide blamed on him. The extent of his
influence on that is arguable, but there was certainly a great deal of
mismanagement that happened under his watch. We've had some reinvestment in
our downtown, but we've still got lots of problems.

~~~
jrochkind1
Yep, it is a common situation in the U.S.

------
freshyill
A lot of it actually looks really nice, almost like it's in the country or a
very small town. If they can keep tearing down the completely blighted areas,
it seems like they can actually turn it into something quite pleasant.

~~~
wmeredith
I was also struck in the same manner by the green spaces. They seem like a
plus, but the tax base resulting from such a low density population does lend
itself well to running city services.

~~~
c0nsumer
They seem like a plus, until you see the remaining houses up close. They are
usually in terrible shape, and decent ones are targets for crime in a city
where emergency service response is often measured in hours.

------
marquis
A recent Jim Jarmusch & Tilda Swinton film, Only Lovers Left Alive, was set
partially in a decaying Detroit mansion as the perfect home and city for
ancient vampires wanting a quiet home. I found it an interesting commentary on
Detroit.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Only_Lovers_Left_Alive](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Only_Lovers_Left_Alive)

------
acomjean
I saw Alex MacLean (the photographer) give a talk about his aerial photography
in at the lincoln library last century. It was great, not only are the images
great, but he takes time to explain why they are significant. From the air is
an interesting way to analyze.

He's got more on his website:

[http://www.alexmaclean.com](http://www.alexmaclean.com)

------
ianbicking
We see a lot of the most blighted areas, but out of curiosity: what's the best
neighborhood inside Detroit city limits?

~~~
rmason
There are probably seven or eight nice neighborhoods in Detroit. If I was to
pick two it would be Indian Village or Palmer Park which both have their own
private security 24 hours a day. Big well kept houses with narrow streets.

A few more better than average would be downtown, Corktown, N. Rosedale, S.
Rosedale (where I grew up)and Sherwood Forest. I tell people to think of
Detroit not as a big monolith but as a series of villages, some are OK to
visit and others are to be avoided at all costs.

~~~
mklim
Midtown is doing well now as well. Lived there for three years and just
visited again for the first time in 6 months or so for Noel Night. I saw a
handful of businesses there that had all been established since the time I
moved out. Lots of stuff to do, and it's pretty safe. Response time from the
WSUPD is just a couple minutes, and they take calls for a few mile radius
outside WSU's campus.
[http://www.livemidtown.org/](http://www.livemidtown.org/) is a decent
marketing site with more info on it.

~~~
ianbicking
It's interesting that Indian Village, Palmer Park, and Midtown all benefit
from a police force alternative to Detroit PD. I wonder if there are other
services like this? I would assume private schooling would be common, but what
about things like public works?

------
netcan
Have there been proposals following this bankruptcy to split Detroit out into
sub-"cities?" The actual definition of a city is somewhat arbitrary. In
Australia for example, the official "city" unit that manages municipal
services is actually not Melbourne or Sydney it's smaller units usually
encompassing a population of 100k or so.

The division of responsibilities between federal, state and city is different
but I think the takeaway is that while "Detroit" is a geographical and
cultural unit, it doesn't mean it has to be a municipal one.

Maybe such a change of paradigm would be helpful here. The thought of
rehabilitating a new entity comprised of suburbs, but not the downtown (or via
versa) might be a less daunting task. It;s easier to move the needle.

Bankruptcy seems a good time to do something like this.

~~~
maxerickson
I tried to understand the law on this a bit during a previous discussion. In
Michigan, cities are established by a municipal charter. That charter can more
or less only be amended by a vote of the people living in the city.

I think would be very difficult to make such a proposal that did not end up
drawing economic lines (in some sense, such lines are natural). People on one
side of such a line would be strongly incentivized to oppose it. So it's
likely to be impossible politically.

------
netcan
For any radical community building idea (like a cult or a commune) Detroit
poses some interesting possibilities.

It seems like an urban acreage with a bunch of houses or other buildings could
be bought for the price of an average house. I'm imagining some sort of new
age Amish colonizers.

~~~
netcan
EDIT - This was kind of a joke. But after writing it, I actually think it's
it's an interesting idea for some sort of kibutz-ish urban village project.

~~~
SyncTheory13
You may be interested in reading Bolo'Bolo by P.M. or
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Widmer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Widmer)

I've taken a lot of inspiration from this for future plans.

------
mmccaff
I was just talking about the potential reinvigoration of Detroit this morning,
because of this NYT article from yesterday:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/08/arts/galapagos-art-
space-w...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/08/arts/galapagos-art-space-will-
make-detroit-its-home.html)

This is a really unique, innovative venue for the arts that has been operating
in Brooklyn for almost 20 years. A long time for a venue to exist in NY, and a
testament to their founder.

They are headed to Detroit because of how high rent has become. If Galapagos
can recreate what they had done in NY, it's a real win for the area that they
are moving into.

------
helipad
Brush Park features in a lot of those photos (just up from Ford Field and
Comerica Park).

There are beautiful historic buildings with great swaths of vacant land. It's
a designated historical district, so the city is making it tough for a
layperson to buy a lot. For example, all available tax foreclosed lots in the
area were removed from the treasurer's auction.

I suppose they're trying to prevent ugly condos being built, but then you get
a situation like this where an area very close to downtown is so sparse.

------
q2
I can see cars, buildings,greenery but I could not see a single person in any
photo. Why is that? Why there are no people on roads?

------
mathattack
Is this the new model of urban decay? There is a large trend towards urbanism,
but not every city is a winner.

~~~
Zigurd
The Economist recently published a contrarian article claiming that suburbs
are the real winner on a global scale.

~~~
mathattack
Interesting. Link? I see some suburbs winning and some losing but don't have
an aggregate view.

~~~
Zigurd
[http://www.economist.com/suburbs](http://www.economist.com/suburbs)

~~~
mathattack
Of course - how obvious. :-)

------
Paul-ish
Who mows the lawns on the empty lots?

------
blueskin_
No paywall: [https://archive.today/nbdzT](https://archive.today/nbdzT)

