
Jails are replacing visits with video calls–inmates and families hate it - okket
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/05/jails-are-replacing-in-person-visits-with-video-calling-services-theyre-awful/
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mabbo
This is American "justice" culture. We can do anything we want to "bad people"
because they are intrinsically "bad". You can tell they're bad because they're
in jail. If they were good people, like me, they wouldn't be in jail.

Anyone caught suggesting something is too much punishment is not "tough on
crime". They want the bad people to win (so don't vote for them!). Reducing
sentence length, improving prison conditions, trying to actually help those on
prison, that's all just weakness, that's not being tough on crime.

Who cares that recividism is more expensive than rehabilitation- the point
isn't to save money or reduce crime, it's to punish the bad people. I mean, if
we stop thinking of them as bad people, how am I supposed to know that I'm a
good person?

~~~
graphitezepp
Something happened over the years that caused, at least in my experience
living in America, people to incredibly deeply associate legality with
morality. I suspect this is universal to some degree in societies around the
world and in history. But how prevalent it is in my lived experience feels
deeply Orwellian. As long as Big Brother approves your in the right, right?

~~~
CompelTechnic
If the law is not at least an approximation of morality, then what is its
purpose?

Or to put it another way, assuming that I share a common moral sense with my
fellow citizens, I would much prefer a legal system that is strongly
associated with morality than one that is not.

If your objection is that the law feels to retributive, then that is a
separate issue.

~~~
zajd
> If the law is not at least an approximation of morality, then what is its
> purpose?

To maintain existing power structures

~~~
V-2
The more the law diverges from the morality (as commonly understood in a given
society), the more oppressive power structures you need in order to maintain
it.

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sykh
There is a callousness in the attitudes the general populace has toward
prisoners. The American desire for retribution and revenge toward prisoners is
insatiable. This overall attitude affects our views and reactions in other
areas. For instance there is a lingering fear in a large segment of American
society that poor people get something they don’t deserve through the welfare
system. The dehumanizing way we view prisoners and their concerns is toxic. As
a people we have lost our way.

~~~
sixothree
Why has it become so hard to convince people that they should care about
others.

~~~
bhandziuk
It's confusing because the people making these decisions surely have families
and are not made of metal. Surely.

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nkoren
> In the early years, companies selling video-visitation products would ask
> jails to sign contracts requiring them to phase out in-person visits.

This seems evil. Actually evil. Inhuman, sick, psychopathically twisted,
demonically evil. This is a contract that literally obligates its signatories
to destroy other human souls: to deprive them of all touch, eye contact, the
natural timbre of a loved one's actual voice. I cannot imagine how a person,
peddling such a contract, could possibly sleep at night.

~~~
magduf
>I cannot imagine how a person, peddling such a contract, could possibly sleep
at night.

Simple: because they're evil, psychopathically twisted and demonically evil,
just like you said.

And the government officials who agree to these contracts are just as
demonically evil.

I really think that estimates by mental health professionals that psychopaths
are only 5% of the population are probably far, far too low.

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Havoc
The stats I saw were actually lower. 2% for gen pop, 5% for corporate env.

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firic
Prison sentences really ruins people's lives. They lose their job, their house
(can't pay mortgage or rent) and many times their relationship. I wonder how
using ancient punishment would work nowadays. When someone commits a crime the
judge and a doctor can decide how many time you should get whipped, shocked,
or waterboarded and then after a few days of pain and humiliation the criminal
can continue on with their life. Obviously for repeat offenders this may not
work, but for first timers, it may work.

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BartBoch
This is wrong on so many levels...

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dsfyu404ed
I think you're under-estimating how disruptive prison is to one's life. I'd
definitely choose lashes over prison. Heck, I'd probably take lashes + prison
in order to get a felony reduced to a misdemeanor. It would suck less than the
effects on my life from losing my job.

~~~
BartBoch
Then the problem is with how prisons are. Those should be changed. Introducing
some extreme measures and a new way to punish is not the way.

~~~
bhandziuk
The counter argument here is that long term prison sentences are the more
extreme punishment

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whack
This doesn't have to be a political issue. No matter how "tough on crime" you
are, bringing down recividism rates should be a priority for everyone. If
nothing else, then at least for practical reasons.

When you deprive prisoners of meaningful interactions with people on the
outside, you are isolating them more and more from the "civilian" population,
and civilian life. Which invariably means you're pushing them closer to other
prisoners and prison gangs. As a direct result of this, when they leave
prison, they won't have anyone else to turn to, in order to get their life
back on track. The only option they know, and can easily access, is a life of
crime together with their prison-peers.

By not helping prisoners integrate into normal society, you are directly
contributing to robbery, gang violence and homicide. That's the very opposite
of being "tough on crime".

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burfog
I think you didn't notice the connection between "bringing down recividism
rates should be a priority for everyone" and "when they leave prison". Make
that "if they leave prison". Recividism is zero if they never leave.

~~~
whack
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious. Are you advocating life
imprisonment for crimes like robbery?

~~~
burfog
I can't tell either. It's just an observation of something that is factually
correct. I'm pointing out the coldly rational conclusion. I don't think I
intend to advocate either way.

Most robbers will reoffend. That really isn't OK. People get badly hurt and
even killed in many cases, often including the robber. The robber may be safer
in prison.

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nyxtom
For profit jail systems are incentivizing some of the worst things in America.
Speaking as someone who has a relative in prison, anything that can be charged
- will be. Everything from email, food, hygenics, time, visitation... etc. Not
to mention the imbalance of sentencing and recidivism rates.

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Codestare
Land of the free.

Making money off keeping people in prison, you have to be a cold-hearted SOB
in this industry.

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dsfyu404ed
If the misdeeds of politicians, beurocrats, cops, etc landed them in prison
the way the misdeeds of "commoners" did the problem would solve itself.

This is yet another problem that would be solved or mostly mitigated if the
groups of people who shape, administrate and enforce the rules of society had
to take their own medicine. It's much harder perpetuate an inhumane system for
the purpose of screwing over people who screwed up when you and the people
around you would have to face that same system if you screwed up.

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noisy_boy
From my limited knowledge about this, I think a big issue about contact visits
is smuggling of drugs by the visitors (for profit or under gang-pressure with
threat of violence on the inmate). This might help with that. However, thats
not an issue for non-contact (behind a glass visits) so not sure why that
shouldn't be allowed.

~~~
sykh
I assume almost all contraband comes from employees. Visits are too infrequent
and the monitoring of visits makes it too difficult to smuggle at scale via
visitation without employee involvement.

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vijaybritto
How are the US even complaining about human rights violations when so many
serious ones happen right at home?! It's appalling to see all this

~~~
josefresco
Human rights violations are wrong 100% of the time. Whataboutism doesn't
change that.

~~~
barrkel
Judge not, that ye be not judged. First cast out the beam out of thine own
eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's
eye.

Criticism is a lot more effective when it's not hypocritical.

~~~
sykh
You both have a point. All societies that are sufficiently large have quirks
and contradictions. You can find inequities and injustices in every country
that is large enough. But people should still be free to criticize policies of
other countries. Of course, when the hypocrisy is too great said criticisms
falls on deaf ears.

Let us strive to be less hypocritical but still vigilant in pointing out human
rights violations elsewhere.

~~~
josefresco
> Let us strive to be less hypocritical but still vigilant in pointing out
> human rights violations elsewhere.

This is better put. Hypocrisy should not blind us all.

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noxToken
I'm not gonna comment on the substitution of video calls for in-person
visitation nor the kickbacks that prisons get for the offsite calls. We all
know that it's garbage, and that companies like Securus are disgusting.

I will say that the silver lining in all of this is that incarcerated peoples
can finally still have visitation if someone is unable to physically come to
them. Video calls have been commonplace for a quite a while, so maybe (though
I'm not holding my breath) some jails and prisons will actually put them to
good use.

Sometimes I want to believe that common decency will win.

~~~
Qwertie
It's great to have video calls but as one comment pointed out, some of the
companies selling these systems require the prisons to make them the only
option.

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rdlecler1
I’d rather see augmentation than replacement — I bet we could reduce
recidivism rates if we gave inmates more time with their families.

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vasundhar
1\. This is not human 2\. Any pubishment (In civiliaded world is meant for
correction) 3\. If Law permitted human interaction , there ahould not be any
reason to stop it. 4\. WRT : Private prisons , this means more surveillance ,
less policing( need to hire )

Since this is about the inmates, they do it without much resistance , for
heavy pockets

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ezoe
How can you certain that the video you're watching isn't procedurally
generated fake, or there is a gun pointed at the prisoner from behind for not
talking about human right violation?

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chr1
Internet access should be one of inalienable human rights.

And prisioners should be able to call home any time in addition to normal
visitations.

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staticelf
From a nordic european perspective the very idea of privitized jail is a bit
too much. Like, really?

This article makes me think about and why I will never leave the north:
[http://www.businessinsider.com/an-american-warden-
visited-a-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/an-american-warden-visited-a-
norwegian-prison--and-he-couldnt-believe-what-he-
saw-2014-10?op=1&r=US&IR=T&IR=T)

~~~
eli
Pretty sure the jail in the article is run by the county and is not
privatized. Private prisons are bad and I'm categorically against them, but US
public run jails are overwhelmingly more common and they aren't so great
either.

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Bromskloss
Did anyone think they would not hate it?

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currymj
if you are an engineer working for one of these companies, you should get a
different job as soon as possible.

~~~
mmirate
And if you are an unemployed engineer, you should seek out these companies in
anticipation that their employees heed your comment.

~~~
45h34jh53k4j
I understand you are a student, and you really need a job, but working for an
unethical company is not worth it, for your sanity and the world.

You didn't study for years just to end up making the world a worse place.

~~~
mmirate
> You didn't study for years just to end up making the world a worse place.

You are correct, I didn't study for years _just_ to make the world a worse
place. I'm not some cartoon villain.

But I also didn't study for years _just_ to make the world a better place.

What I _did_ study for years, was to obtain a valuable skill and a credential
thereof. I expect that my lifetime earnings will be significantly higher on
account of my education, compared to if I had not perused any undergraduate
education; else I would have not spent so much time+tuition+effort.

And if my skill becomes more valuable and rare for certain companies, on
account of nothing more than the irrational bias of my peers? Not taking
advantage of such an opportunity, is leaving money on the table. It's as
irrational as being biased against them in the first place.

> your sanity

I don't understand. Do people actually go crazy whenever their company isn't
Robin Hood reincarnate?

~~~
CptFribble
It's so refreshing to hear today's youth recognize that the profit is the
highest ethic we can aspire to.

After years of difficult math and physics, it can be easy to forget that the
most important equation: More Money = Good!

~~~
mmirate
More Money = Good! Yes! Exactly! How do people fail to grasp this!?

~~~
sojournerc
I believe the parent was missing a `/s`, and was in fact pointing out how a
profit driven ethic is actually quite ruinous.

~~~
mmirate
I don't see how that comment was indicating how optimal action is ruinous; but
more importantly its words ring true at face value.

~~~
sojournerc
I can't speak for the parent. But to me it's obvious at face value that the
best choice ethically is not necessarily the choice with the most monetary
gain as you seem to argue. Exploiting the incarcerated for personal gain falls
into that category IMO.

In my experience, there are many opportunities to make a quick buck in life,
but taking those opportunities doesn't necessarily lead to a better the world,
and can very often make it worse.

If your only concern in life is getting mo' money, don't be surprised when you
have plenty of money but a lack of meaningful relationships and personal
fulfillment.

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jcsnv
These video calls charge around $2/minute as well.

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tomkinson
Inhumane

