
Economist Removed from Plane for Algebra - kawera
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/
======
jackgavigan
Well, at least he wasn't arrested and barred from flying:
[http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/16/southwest-
air...](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/16/southwest-airlines-man-
removed-flight-arabic)

These sort of events really highlight how dangerous the combination of
stupidity and fear is.

~~~
CPLX
Yes, here's an excellent video outlining the key factors at work:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YwZ0ZUy7P3E](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YwZ0ZUy7P3E)

~~~
gaius
And [http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-
updates/incidents/easyj...](http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-
updates/incidents/easyjet-flight-halted-when-woman-notices-is-messages-on-
mans-phone/news-story/012d3f5aa5331df6a72ad824505bd991)

All 3 cases are women reporting men, which is interesting.

~~~
hackuser
> All 3 cases are women reporting men, which is interesting.

It's meaningless; the sample is far too small and also not representative of
the population of such reports.

------
moioci
God thing he didn't have a compass and protractor on him. Then he might have
been charged with possessing weapons of math instruction.

~~~
gus_massa
(I know this is a joke, but I have a related real story ...)

One of my friends had a problem a few years ago because she had a compass in
the carry on luggage. It has a sharp metal tip, so it's forbidden. She didn't
have any problem, and she could put it in the main luggage.

I think he protractors are completely safe, at lest the plastic protractors
...

------
danielvf
It's clear from the story that neither the stewardess, the pilot, nor the law
enforcement agent thought he was an actual threat.

I'm guessing that there is a rule that if a passenger reports a suspicious
person, then the plane must be held and law enforcement must be notified.
Fortunately, at that point common sense was allowed to take over, rather than
spiraling into multiple agencies mindlessly following bad procedures.

~~~
asuffield
Perhaps you wrote this before American Airlines added more details to the
article, but: none of the aircraft crew were aware of what was going on when
the plane returned to the gate. The woman in the seat next to the victim lied
to the air staff and said she was sick, and only when she had got off the
plane did she make her accusation.

The law enforcement agent quickly cleared it up after arriving.

Looks like all the staff here did the best they reasonably could do with the
information they were given.

~~~
marcoperaza
I guess it's possible, but that sounds fishy. Why would they delay the plane
for a passenger who feels sick? Either you feel fine and you fly, or you don't
and you get off the plane. You would never delay a train or a bus for that
reason.

~~~
asuffield
If the plane is still on the ground and a passenger says they are too sick to
fly, the plane goes back to the gate to let them get off the plane. That's
normal.

A passenger said they were too sick to fly, so the plane went back to the
gate. When it reached the gate, the passenger changed their story and things
got more complicated.

~~~
jethro_tell
This sucks, they should send one of the bluthes out to pick you up on the
stair car.

------
cperciva
And it wasn't even an algebraic geometer talking about "blowing up points on a
plane" this time!

(Closer to home: My father had an interesting experience once at a chemistry
conference when a member of the public heard that he was studying "free
radials". Language is weird.)

~~~
cnvogel
Even worse, he probably studied "free radicals"! (I suspect a typo in parent)

~~~
cperciva
Oops, thanks for the correction; I blame my phone. Unfortunately too late for
me to correct the post now.

------
keithpeter
Shades of John Dee

 _" 1555 28 May - John Dee imprisoned for heresy and for being a magician
accused of 'calculating' as a form of magic"_

[http://www.elizabethan-era.org.uk/john-dee.htm](http://www.elizabethan-
era.org.uk/john-dee.htm)

To be fair, the 'calculating' in question was casting horoscopes of the
Monarch - which was regarded as a political thing to be doing in those days.

~~~
mpnordland
Still not a good reason to imprison him.

~~~
keithpeter
Not by today's standards no, but this was the 1500s.

They saw casting the horoscope of the royals in the same way that we would
view someone now who had inside knowledge of (say) a major development project
in some part of a city and who used that inside knowledge to buy land cheap in
order to speculate.

------
hackuser
What happens to people who aren't in the social class of Ivy League
professors? Do they get off as easily? Do their stories get told? (Is this
event any more offensive or ridiculous because the victim is an Ivy League
economist?)

What would a U.S. President with fascistic tendencies do with this kind of
power over people's liberty?

~~~
Gibbon1
> What would a U.S. President with fascistic tendencies do with this kind of
> power over people's liberty?

We're about to find out.

------
tuna-piano
His picture of himself from his website. Guessing the scraggly beard + hair +
math combo is what scared the passenger:

[http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4...](http://web-
facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4.jpg)

~~~
appleflaxen
I agree. He definitely looks like a terrorist. I guarantee you that if we
waterboard him enough, he will tell us anything we want to hear about how his
cell works. My guess is that he knows people that he'd even be willing to
implicate in its operation.

~~~
louithethrid
That "I-know-how-a-terrorist"-looks like thing, is what kept the german RAF
going strong for nearly twenty years. They just dressed up like buisness man
and walked through every controll.

~~~
davidgerard
I used to go to anti-Nazi demonstrations in a suit and tie with short hair.
Everyone else on my side was scruffy anarchists and socialists. The police got
_quite_ confused.

~~~
RobertKerans
"If you're going to say something radical, make sure you wear a suit"

~~~
louithethrid
The problem with stereo-types is- that anyone just similar looking goes in the
"usual suspects bag". If some hacker would went on a automated killing spree-
everyone beeing pale, having glasses and drinking too much coffee suddenly
would be suspicious.

Thats really troubling. How to solve this ? I mean, dirty-workaround-solve
this, not wishfull thinking reeducate solve this.

Some karma system, involving how much a person is socially connected, how much
it contributed to society, how much it got planned, how much is at stake in
its life?

But however you refine that algorithm- you catch a lot of unwanted fish, and
someone like mohamed atta slips right through. This is really tough. I guess
the best indicator is how mono-thematic your life is. If all your searches,
all your interests and all your communication partners are "themed" \- you
desserve some suspicion. He is a math-expert, get him.

~~~
Razengan
Focus towards recovery rather than preemptive prevention; once medical
immortality and mind-backups become available and routine, anyone who dies
from "terrorism" and other violence or accident could just be resurrected.

Data, financial and whatnot, can already be restored. Architecture can already
be rebuilt. Once nobody is able to inflict any lasting damage on society,
everyone can just chill and maybe no one would want to try any terrorism,
knowing how futile it would be.

------
sehugg
I'm worried that a flight crew responsible for moving a million-lb plane
safely through the air isn't allowed (or is unwilling) to perform basic triage
on accusations made by terrified passengers.

~~~
TillE
Has there been a single useful observation of an actual incident by
passengers, since Richard Reid (who was blatantly attempting to light
something on fire)? Any arrests, charges?

I struggle to understand why vague accusations of "suspicious behavior" are
treated this way, over and over again.

~~~
BWStearns
I think the attempted underwear bomber was after Reid. Here's the thing
though: if you're trying to set something on fire or storm the cockpit or some
other actually undesired behavior, it's not going to be some routine in an
airline manual that stops you. It's going to be all your seat neighbors who
are going to physically stop you because you're obviously a threat.

The real problem is these wildly unqualified citizen-Paul(ine)-Blarts who saw
on an episode of Criminal Minds that looking up and left while writing non-
ASCII characters is an indicator of terrorist intent. She essentially pulled
the fire alarm on a bunch of people because she's an idiot. What she did is
functionally no different than calling in a false report about some random
passenger on a plane that's about to take off. She should have to pay a fine
for all the time and resources she wasted with her little ruse (I'm sure she
felt very clever when she conceived it).

Imagine a Richard Reid scenario where some guy beats the piss out of his seat
neighbor because he thinks he's trying to bomb the flight. If he's right, he's
a hero (and he _should_ be applauded for stopping a bombing). If he's wrong
and the guy was just tying his shoes, he gets charged with assault. This is a
good thing, because we don't want people seeing physical violence as a cost
free option.

Being too dumb to tell the difference between an episode of 24 and your boring
ass day is not a tolerated excuse to physically assault people. It shouldn't
be tolerated as a reason to call in false alarms either. I'm sick of stupid
people being able to inflict massive amounts of inconvenience and even degrees
of suffering with no consequences for being wrong.

* I realize that stupid is perhaps an imprecise and mean choice of words, but I can't come up with a better explanation for adults who cannot appropriately assess the threat posed by a nerdy Italian guy writing in a notebook who doesn't want to talk to them. I get that calling people stupid isn't a way to make them smarter, and that it can have a negative developmental impact for younger kids to view things in a smart/stupid fixed-talent paradigm, but we need to somehow bring back some of the cultural rejection for acting like a goddamn idiot. I don't really care if she gets smarter (though that would be nice), I have lower aims. I want her to be afraid to be wrong because actions should have consequences. If there's no cost incurred to this person (actually, she'll probably be praised for her "vigilance" by people she respects) where do we draw the line?

------
JustinAiken
Well, I'm not one for no-fly lists... but as long as we have them, this lady
belongs on it.

------
minikites
>Mean world syndrome is a term coined by George Gerbner to describe a
phenomenon whereby violence-related content of mass media makes viewers
believe that the world is more dangerous than it actually is.

This, combined with most people's statistical illiteracy about which risks
actually affect them, is the root cause for a lot of problems I think.

------
m0llusk
It was not algebra, but a differential equation. That is no excuse, but may
help to explain the situation as those things can be pretty scary.

~~~
coldcode
The word algebra comes from the Arabic word "al-jabr". Clearly the work of a
terrorist.

------
kleiba
I bet you he was using arabic numbers!

~~~
ptaipale
He probably also applied an Al-Khwārizmī.

~~~
Cyph0n
Why do I feel bad laughing at this?

------
informatimago
What surprizes me is that nobody is shaming the woman for not recognizing
maths.

~~~
newjersey
I'd imagine the authorities might give her an award with the "if you see
something, say something" kind of rhetoric.

~~~
dmix
Yes, she did exactly what the authorities want people to do.

Naturally, there will be ~99% false positives but it's worth the risks! I mean
he could have been writing Arabic... the horror...

Better safe than sanity.

------
Arnt
Sounds like airplane phobia... She was scared and grasped at the first straw
that gave her a reason to.

------
mariuolo
Perhaps we wouldn't be seeing this if she had paid more attention in school.

------
kercker
When I clicked the Facebook link provided by this page, I got "Sorry, this
content isn't available right now. The link you followed may have expired, or
the page may only be visible to an audience you're not in."

Why would Guido Menzio delete this post?

~~~
Zuider
It is likely that he deleted his Facebook post because he mentions wearing a
keffiyeh, or 'Yasser Arafat scarf' as he calls it. It is far more plausible
that this is what drew suspicion than his scribbling algebraic symbols on a
page.

[http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4...](http://web-
facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4.jpg)

~~~
yoo1I
Uhm, that's not a 'Yasser Arafat scarf' in that picture, that's a knitted
scarf ...

~~~
Zuider
Maybe, but that is what he called it himself on facebook, and it has the
distinctive keffiyeh chequered pattern and he wears it like a keffiyeh.

~~~
GabrielF00
I don't see that at all. He's wearing it around his neck, not on his head. The
material is completely different. The pattern is also different.

~~~
Zuider
The keffiyeh is versatile. It can also be worn around the neck, tucked into
the jacket. This way of wearing it became a fashion in the West in the mid to
late '80s.

------
raverbashing
Typical obnoxious neighbour, I might say

Now any scribble is a "threat" and indication of something might be wrong? I
better close my console window here as well

Just as a reminder there are two types of fascists: fascists and anti-facists

~~~
carlob
> Just as a reminder there are two types of fascists: fascists and anti-
> facists

First of all this is the kind of shit fascists typically say. Secondly how
does that even follow?!

~~~
raverbashing
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory)

Google Image search Antifa for all the love and understanding

------
rainhacker
Though similar incidents have happened in other airlines as well - when I read
this took place on an American Airlines flight, I recalled my experience with
them.

My flight was cancelled and everyone was standing in line to get rescheduled.
When my turn in the line came the American Airlines official gave me a number
and asked me to call on it to get help instead, he said it would be quicker. I
obliged and stepped aside. I thought he'd say the same to the rest of the
people in the line. But, that didn't happen. Instead, he continued helping
people before me in the line. I called the number, the wait was too long and I
came back to him and asked for help. He (I think pretended to) look at his
computer and told me nothing is available. Later I called the number again and
got a seat. I was puzzled with the behavior of the airlines staff. I thought
may be earlier seat wasn't available. But, I was certainly not happy with
there service.

Later I also found out that last year only that they were sued by African-
American employees for overtly racist patterns and practices:
[http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/8/24/1415082/-American-
Ai...](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/8/24/1415082/-American-Airlines-
being-sued-by-African-American-employees-for-overtly-racist-patterns-and-
practices)

------
appleflaxen
Terrorists 1 Democracy 0

~~~
jasonjei
``The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the
average voter.''\---Winston Churchill

~~~
Zuider
'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.'
\---Winston Churchill

~~~
BWStearns
Winston Churchill 1 Winston Churchill 0

------
wglb
On the order of the DiHydrogen Monoxide scam: "algebra is used to make bombs".

------
blisterpeanuts
I'd like to see this story picked up and verified by a mainstream news
organization. But assuming it's factual, why would a flight crew take
seriously such a bizarre accusation? Surely they are trained to deal with this
type of situation. The person who raised the alarm should be held to account,
much as someone who pulls the fire alarm or calls the police for frivolous
reasons can be fined.

~~~
rmk2
The article links to the Washington Post, though?

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/iv...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-
league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/)

------
pcmaffey
They should have just removed the scared passenger.

------
epsilon
To be fair, I recall students who were legitimately terrorized by differential
equations.

The woman was undoubtedly unnerved by the terse response to her attempt to be
sociable, having never encountered someone in the midst of mathing hard. Or
perhaps she just feared the equation had a singular solution.

------
auggierose
Most likely that woman had a schizophrenic panic attack.

~~~
auggierose
not sure why all the downvotes. The stewardess asked her if she was too "sick"
to continue the flight, so that might actually have been the cause: She
noticed she is getting paranoid about the neighbour scribbling strange things,
and leaves the flight. Now, the "officials" investigate the guy, just to be on
the safe side.

I don't think this scenario is less likely than assuming that the woman was
really that "stupid" to behave that way.

~~~
stupidcar
I find it deeply ironic that you're being downvoted for questioning the
presumption that the woman was herself making stupid/racist presumptions.

Everyone's got their favoured narratives, I guess, and get uncomfortable when
they're challenged.

------
kpozin
On a cross-country flight a couple of weeks ago, I decided to calculate the
distance to the horizon using a pen, notepad, and the SatStat GPS app on my
phone (to get the current altitude). That must have looked _really_
suspicious.

------
payne92
Irony: Algebra (and zero!) invented by Arab / Islamic scholars.

~~~
ptaipale
Actually, no: zero was developed in India on the 5th century. Arab / Islamic
scholars merely learned it from them.

And algebra was developed by Greeks on 3rd century, although al-Khwārizmī
developed it further (note btw that he was not an Arab but Persian, although
he worked in Baghdad).

------
waynecochran
Imagine what they would have done if he was doing Calculus?!

~~~
Zuider
He was.

------
singold
It seems algebra knows what economists do with math

------
MaysonL
If you haven't read it, find a copy of "Mr. Costello, Hero" by Theodore
Sturgeon.

------
bitL
Did she fail her differential calculus and then got sick looking at some
advanced stuff?

------
Zuider
The article glosses over an important detail. It is far more likely that he
raised suspicion by wearing a keffiyeh, or 'Yasser Arafat scarf', as he calls
it on his Facebook thread concerning the issue. The Palestinian Liberation
Organization is still on the proscribed terrorist list.

Edit: See tuna-piano's comment below where he links a picture of Guido Menzio
wearing a scraggly beard and keffiyeh combo.

[http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4...](http://web-
facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4.jpg)

Edit: Guido Menzio has since deleted, or made inaccessible to the general
public the relevant Facebook page.

~~~
datashovel
Do you think this would somehow exonerate the "concerned citizen"?

~~~
Zuider
It would certainly exonerate the "concerned citizen" from the accusation that
they regarded writing mathematical symbols on a page as a terrorist act.

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
The linked Washington Post story specifically says the concerned passenger
notified staff because of the math she saw.

~~~
Zuider
The identity of the passenger has been kept secret for privacy reasons. For
that reason, she could not be contacted to confirm or deny Menzio's claim. All
we have so far are Menzio's own words, possibly further distorted by the
Washington Post, and his characterization of what others told him.

If she did come forward, I suspect that we would get a more nuanced and
complete explanation for why she became suspicious of Menzio. There are
already clues in Menzio's own account where he notes that he maintained a
dismissive and non-committal attitude to her attempts at conversation, and
remained locked with 'laser like' focus on his writing. In short, he was
behaving in a strange and hostile manner.

~~~
Cyph0n
Are you serious? If I notice someone focused and scribbling equations onto a
piece of paper, I leave them the fuck alone so they can concentrate.

Also, since when has practicing mathematics on a plane become a "strange and
hostile" activity? Would she have reported him if he was focused on a Sudoku
puzzle?

Either way, the woman sounds like a genuinely disturbed and extremely paranoid
person.

~~~
burfog
Sadly, he's right.

Most people have never experienced a desire to do a bunch of math. They don't
get it. They don't understand the need to concentrate or why one might
voluntarily subject oneself to math. It's strange behavior. For some people it
is also intellectually threatening; people don't react well to things that
could make them feel stupid.

She may also be used to having men nearly always willing to chat with her. The
fact that he is unwilling is strange and possibly insulting.

She is likely an extrovert, and expects it of others. Social interaction is
expected. She expects others to enjoy what she herself enjoys; why would you
not? Of course people want to chat!

~~~
Cyph0n
She has the right to feel however she wishes, but I don't understand why she
thought that the airline staff needed to know this too.

------
spacehome
I don't get the slight on Trump. Seems like a non-sequitur.

------
Joof
I have a beard and do math on planes. I should be more careful...

------
chanakya
Can't say I blame her - she could see he was using those Arabic numerals.

------
kyrre
seems like this was handled well to me

------
dang
Url changed from
[http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/05/eco...](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/05/economist-
removed-from-plane-for-algebra.html), which points to this. We'll keep its
more sensible title though.

------
joesmo
The stupidity in America never ceases to amaze.

------
Criticism123
He deserved it for using a random incident to blame the candidate he doesn't
like. He is the kind of the guy who would say "Anyone who disagrees with me is
only doing it to piss me off! Differences of opinion are proof of evil!"

~~~
mcherm
It appears he did not make a public statement groundlessly tying Trump to this
incident, but rather did so in a Facebook post (private communication to
friends). I find that far less objectionable.

Also, no statement about a politician rises to the level of "deserving" to be
removed from a plane.

------
shitgoose
"Trump’s America is already here"

ahem... Isn't it still Obama's America? Wait till November to accuse future
Trump's presidency of your past misfortunes.

~~~
diego_moita
My Latino version of what "Trumpism" means: anything that looks foreign is
scary.

~~~
shitgoose
One more time - what Trump has to do with actions of government officials,
guided by current administration of President Barak Obama?

------
damptowel
I was hoping they would have dumped him mid flight. Would've served him
right... two timing basterds.

------
datashovel
On a more reflective / somber note. I am a huge fan of the idea of empowering
all classes of people. So the fact that this lady was able to disrupt the
flight is I think (big picture) a good thing.

Instead of simply dismissing this person as ignorant, I hope folks on this
forum will take a moment to reflect on the tragic state of the entire system.
If we're going to enable / empower all classes of people we (those in a
position to make a difference) need to do a better job of raising the bar, and
helping all those in need to raise their own bar too.

~~~
deoptimo
On a less somber note, you are praising the empowerment of ignorant people to
become secret informants on behalf of a security state with the power to
disrupt the lives of others. This is a tried and proven path that many
countries have followed and we all know where it leads.

~~~
datashovel
Please read the post again. It's clear you've jumped to conclusions. Perhaps
you're not among those who this post was directed toward?

~~~
tremon
Your post amounts to "I'm glad these idiots found a voice, now that they
finally affect us all, we can do something about it". But your assumption that
they affect us all equally is not supported by this story, otherwise all
passengers on that plane would have been taken off and screened by police.

I think you fail to realize that these idiots affect mainly minorities, as
that is how uneducated minds work: they can't see past their own identity (and
by the power of numbers, most idiots are white). So what you're effectively
saying is "I'm okay with idiots harrassing minorities".

(edit to add an unwarranted disclaimer: by "idiot", I'm not referring to the
lady in the original story, but to the OP's description of the "tragically
ignorant, in need of raising their bar")

~~~
datashovel
When I read responses like this (that have no connection with the comments
they're in response to) I have to just assume that Hacker News has switched
out my comments and replaced them with something completely different.

Please let me know if you manage to catch the witches you appear to be
hunting.

~~~
elevenfist
We have to assume you're just a troll at this point.

~~~
datashovel
I'm sorry, that you could read this entire thread and come to such a
conclusion.

