
Introducing Surface Laptop - uyoakaoma
https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2017/05/02/introducing-surface-laptop-powered-by-windows-10-s/#xkgEy2SH0VVEG2dt.97
======
russellbeattie
Do any of you have children at a school using Google Chromebooks and Google
Drive? Calling Windows S a Chromebook competitor completely misses the point.

Chromebooks are instant on, and your profile/data is 100% cloud based. You can
grab any Chromebook from the rack in the back of the classroom, open it up,
log in and immediately get to work on your report or whatever.

I got an original Chromebook from Google I/O years ago based on an ancient ARM
chip, and it's still perfectly usable for when my kid's friend comes over to
do homework and they need an extra box.

Windows and Mac computers will never be that easy to setup, use or maintain.
Chromebooks and the cloud system of apps that Google has made is pretty much a
perfect combination of simple and cheap and good enough.

~~~
krzyk
Until you loose internet connectivity (happens from time to time), or go
abroad and don't want to pay high fees for net access.

Or when Google decides that you broke some of their rules (frequently happens
in AdSense) and blocks all of your accounts.

~~~
opportune
I think you're missing the point.

Children don't need to worry about breaking AdSense rules and getting their
accounts blocked, especially if they have accounts dedicated for school.

Children also will have internet at school.

~~~
zepto
But we should worry about google building advertising profiles on children, as
they have been doing.

~~~
donalhunt
I do not believe this statement to be true.

The privacy notice provided by Google for their G Suite for Education is
available here:
[https://gsuite.google.com/terms/education_privacy.html](https://gsuite.google.com/terms/education_privacy.html)

It clearly states "Google does not serve ads in the Core Services or use
personal information collected in the Core Services for advertising purposes."

Is the evidence that indicates this is not true? Is this in relation to non-
core services that school administrators may opt into?

~~~
morganvachon
They aren't using it for advertising purposes _right now_ , but they can still
collect and store the data on children thanks to outdated privacy laws. Once
the child comes of age all of that information is fair game according to their
own policy (once the child becomes an adult, if they continue to use their
account or link it to a new Google account, they are automatically under
Google's normal privacy policy which we all know allows them to harvest
everything you do within their services).

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
switch/wp/2015/12/28...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
switch/wp/2015/12/28/google-is-tracking-students-as-it-sells-more-products-to-
schools-privacy-advocates-warn/)

~~~
panarky
And Microsoft won't?

~~~
morganvachon
I never said otherwise, just responding to a question about Google
specifically.

------
dangrossman
They're now demoing the Surface Laptop. Thinner than a MacBook Air. Faster
than a MacBook Pro. Longer battery life than either.

The downside? "Windows 10 S", which only runs apps from the Windows Store. The
upside over Windows RT from the Windows 8 era? You can port Win32 apps to the
Store today, don't think you could back then.

Edit: You can upgrade Windows 10 S to ordinary Windows 10 Pro for $50. Laptops
that run Windows S from other manufacturers will start at $189.

~~~
avn2109
If this thing could be persuaded to run Linux out of the box with no driver
problems, it could be a Macbook killer.

~~~
wasd
Have you tried Bash on Windows? Been using it lightly (still dual boot) but
it's pretty good experience.

~~~
majewsky
Linux was brought up because grand-grandparent says it can only run stuff from
the Windows Store, so I'm pretty sure that WSL is out of the question.

~~~
kbenson
Sibling comments note that it says you can upgrade to to Windows 10 Pro for
$50, or for free until 2018. The free upgrade seems to be possibly linked to
this deal (it's referenced in the store page), but the details take you to the
Windows S page which notes that upgrading from Windows 10 S to Windows 10 Pro
is a normal feature of Windows 10 S (although it notes "affordably", so there
is usually a cost).

~~~
flukus
For anyone considering running linux this type of nickle-and-diming is more
likely to push them over the edge than to stay with windows.

If you stay with windows you get more of this kind of thing, if you jump ship
then you never have to worry again.

~~~
pjmlp
The wonders of using software without paying for it.

~~~
majewsky
Without _having to_ pay for it. You can easily pay for most Linux distros.

~~~
pjmlp
I personally do pay for the FOSS tools I make use of, but I bet the majority
that find outrageous to pay for OS X or Windows software aren't willing to pay
for anything on UNIX FOSS clones.

------
Flow5457
From the FAQ ([https://support.microsoft.com/en-
us/help/4020089/windows-10-...](https://support.microsoft.com/en-
us/help/4020089/windows-10-s-faq)) :

> Are there any defaults that I cannot change on my Windows 10 S PC?

> Yes, Microsoft Edge is the default web browser on Microsoft 10 S. You are
> able to download another browser that might be available from the Windows
> Store, but Microsoft Edge will remain the default if, for example, you open
> an .htm file. Additionally, the default search provider in Microsoft Edge
> and Internet Explorer cannot be changed

Doesn't it make it illegal in the EU?

~~~
rkangel
I'd imagine that Microsoft looked into that closely. I actually don't have a
problem with it - you can install firefox through the store easily enough, and
opening local html files is a niche case. It'll be mildly tedious if coding
docs appear in Edge, but I'm probably not coding on Windows 10 S.

~~~
skrebbel
The FAQ is deceptive. AFAICT you can't make Firefox the default for opening
links in other apps either.

That, together with "no changing search to google" is going to make many
people hate Windows S, I bet.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> "no changing search to google" is going to make many people hate Windows S,
> I bet.

I highly doubt it. The majority of customers won't care at all. Edge and Bing
are both really, really good. Most customers that I've worked with when during
technical support don't really notice and usually just keep the defaults.
Chrome's touchscreen support is absolutely awful so Edge is usually the best
go-to option for a touch screen PC anyway.

~~~
lottin
A lot of people do care, especially if they're used to using Google.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
After working with non-techies for many years in various support roles I am
unconvinced. The majority I helped, where they had to show me or ask me
something about their web browser, didn't even know what Google was beyond a
search box and sometimes an email that a grandson setup for them.

I'm not sure if there are good statistics out there (especially one that
proper controls) but I'd bet a good amount of money that most non-technical
users either do not care or do not know what the differences are.

(Honestly there isn't much of a difference between Edge and Chrome, Bing and
Google. At least from a non-techie user's point of view).

~~~
lottin
Even if often times they don't know exactly what Google is, they generally
notice if the search results page they're looking at isn't Google's. And in my
experience they tend perceive this as something being wrong with their
computer that needs to be fixed.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
I guess we'll just have to disagree then. The only people I've met who
actually notice Bing's and Google's search result pages looking different are
techies. But I don't have any solid statistics or data just my anecdotal
experience.

------
oceanswave
A fabric covered keyboard... wondering how that's going to look in a year of
use.

1 USB 3.0 port and a proprietary Surface Connect port... So more surface-only
dongles if you want to connect to a VGA/DVI/HDMI display. Is the Surface
Connect port completely proprietary or is a rebranded Thunderbolt?

Starts at $999 for a 13.5" i5/4GB/128GB SSD, and then you have to upgrade to
Windows 10 Pro for $49 if you want to use Steam or non-ms appstore apps... and
after 1 year pay $70/yr or $7/mo for O365

~~~
TheRealDunkirk
The pricing is one thing I don't understand. If you're asking a customer to
pay the same price as a MacBook air, which comes with productivity apps and a
basic cloud service for free, why don't you let them use O365 for free, in
perpetuity, at least on that machine?

The other thing I don't understand is the overarching message. The line we've
been fed from Microsoft's marketing team is that the "convertibility" of the
Surface line is what everyone wanted, and what made it better than any Apple
product in every way. Now, they're back to a plain, old laptop configuration?
Is this an admission of defeat? Have Surface sales flat-lined? (You'd think
that was an easy question to answer, but search results show a lot of
conflicting headlines, and I can't find any graphs in the first 5 tries.)

~~~
cm2187
I heard from a surface book user that he never use the tablet mode in
practice, outside sometimes to make it a tablet in a plane.

I owned a surface pro myself, and I tend to agree. It's a terrible device as a
tablet. Slow to wake up, buggy, low battery life, not really the kind of
device you can carry around and check something on it quickly. And if you use
it as a laptop, it's better to have a proper laptop with more ports, a true
keyboard, a screen which can stay up while sitting on your laps.

~~~
72deluxe
Yep for me the lack of self-supporting screen has meant I hate using it -
can't use it on my lap properly, can't use it on a desk because the screen is
so physically tiny whilst the resolution is insanely high, causing me to run
everything at 200% scaling (as supported by Windows 10, even for non-scaling
older applications which then appear blurry), thereby defeating having a high-
res screen.

~~~
intoverflow2
You should be complaining to app devs who have blurry apps. This is exactly
the same as the OS X transition to high DPI, you're supposed to run things at
200%

------
wamatt
Nice aesthetics and form factor, which makes the choice to use fabric right
under the palms, more than odd.

Perhaps it will have strong sales given potential buyers rarely consider these
long term issues. However, that fabric is almost certainly going to turn nasty
over time and be a pain to manage.

It's like innovating by installing living potted plants inside a Ferrari to
improve air quality. Cleaner air is a desirable goal, although the
implementation could use another iteration.

~~~
georgeek
While that's certainly a concern, let's not forget that Alcantara is very
common in high-end sports cars. It's commonly used in endurance racing (24h of
le Mans etc).

~~~
gambiting
I have a full alcantara steering wheel in my Mercedes AMG. It's awful, and AMG
Private Lounge forums will tell you the same story, it's not uncommon for
people to literally go and swap their alcantara-clad wheels in their $100k
vehicles for normal leather. Initially it feels amazing when the car is brand
new, but you need to keep cleaning it every month or otherwise it becomes this
dirty clump of neither pleasant leather, nor smooth material, it's just
unpleasant to touch - and after a certain point it doesn't matter how much you
clean it, it just looks like an old rag and the only thing you can do is have
the wheel re-done. Having a laptop covered in alcantara sounds like the worst
idea ever, probably only a notch better than having shiny black piano plastic
on surfaces which scratch from just looking at them.

------
captainmuon
Windows S is completely backwards. If the Windows Store was actually any good,
they should make a version _without_ store apps (win32 only) and let customers
pay a premium to use signed, vetted, store apps. (Only half kidding...)

But this way around, store apps will always be viewed as the cheaper, less
featured option.

~~~
cm2187
Mostly I don't get the different between Windows RT and Windows S. Did they
just change the name?

~~~
wvenable
Basically the same idea except S runs on x86 and it's now much easier to
convert bog-standard Win32 apps to store apps.

------
ghusbands
This seems to heavily dilute the Surface brand. Until now, you could get a
Surface device and know you were getting a useful, independent writing/touch
surface and a good-to-great keyboard/trackpad to attach. Now we're given a
laptop with no convertibility whatsoever; not even a 360 degree hinge like
many similar-spec laptops?

~~~
dragon_greens
It started as a table. Moved to a tablet. Then a laptop. Brand dilution
doesn't seem like a priority for Microsoft.

Wish they had more sensible and less confusing naming. This is not fun to
explain when people ask. (Same can be said of Google and a bunch of other tech
companies too though.)

~~~
johnchristopher
> Brand dilution doesn't seem like a priority for Microsoft.

It's an euphemism considering the whole windows mail live hotmail with
skydrive now onedrive thing.

------
uranian
The bad news is they're targeting students. Who wants to see his children
being locked into MS Windows software by school? Besides, we just found out
Windows 10 has almost complete control over your system and calls home, now
sending your kids private data as a bonus!

I would never accept my kids using a device like this on school. Schools are
just ignorant and stupid if they make a deal for these laptops with MS.
Schools should go for linux and open source, more educational as well.

~~~
my123
You talk as if Chromebooks with Google Apps for Education don't send
everything, including browser history, to the mothership.

~~~
nxpnsv
I do not think that was advocating chromebooks as an alternative.

------
haswell
It appears that the cost to upgrade the i7 model from 8GB RAM / 256GB SSD to
16GB RAM / 512GB SSD is ~$600 ($1599 - $2199).

This is something Apple has long been criticized for. Is there something I'm
missing? Because this seems like a ridiculous premium.

~~~
codedinosaur
From what I've been seeing from the way they sell and price their other
surface devices, and according to some bloggers, MS just wants to set a
reference for other manufacturers to make Windows devices. They seem to price
their products intentionally higher so that they don't cannibalize Dell,
Lenovo, HP and others. Don't know whether it is a good strategy or not, but
that's how they are approaching all their in-house Windows devices

~~~
ktta
I doubt that's the case anymore. With Chromebook Pixel, it was understandable
because it was plain as day.

In this case, it looks like they put in a _lot_ of effort into design and the
overall effort seems to show that they do want these laptops to be sold.

------
akhilcacharya
I don't know why they decided to launch 10 S with a Macbook competitor. Makes
zero sense - launch it with a Surface 4 or a Surface "Lite" or something that
costs < $500. Or are they not intending to compete with Chromebooks anymore?

Even then, the device itself is severely gimped - only 1 USB 3, no USBC. While
the display looks like it should be nice the fact that the $1,000 base model
only offers 4GB of RAM is nothing short of absurd.

~~~
epmaybe
There's another article floating around announcing other devices as low as
$190 running Windows 10 S that will probably actually compete with
Chromebooks.

~~~
akhilcacharya
When why launch with a neutered version on the ultrabook? It doesn't make
sense to me.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
Much like Google's Pixel that was a crazy price for Chrome OS; it's the
flagship device for Windows 10 S.

------
beloch
Microsoft's hardware game seems to be finally picking up steam. They used to
be a big step behind Apple (e.g. Zune), but now they seem to be finally
competing and doing quite well on both price and quality. It will be
interesting to see if they embrace selling hardware as a core source of
revenue or continue to treat hardware as a way to suck customers into their
ecosystem.

Microsoft is now decently involved with Linux and open source on many fronts.
Certainly moreso than Apple. Macbooks are well supported by Linux _in spite_
of Apple's wishes, not because of them. A lot of people love Apple hardware
and work hard to build support for it.

Microsoft doesn't need to trouble themselves by selling Surfaces or Surface
Laptops with linux pre-installed, but they could ensure that popular distros
support their hardware well and are relatively well tested by release day (and
publicize this, of course). This would allow them to steal some market share
from Apple and Lenovo. The Linux laptop market probably isn't that huge but,
like education users, it does cover a lot of people who might influence the
purchases of others.

I'd be sorely tempted to buy one of these surface laptops because the hardware
looks great. However, I'd have to hear some pretty glowing reviews of high
compatibility to depart from a safer bet.

~~~
intoverflow2
> This would allow them to steal some market share from Apple and Lenovo

The surface line isn't about becoming a big player in the laptop market. It's
about raising the bar and expectations for Windows hardware.

------
Roritharr
Dead on Arrival for our company. We only buy Thunderbolt 3 equipped notebooks
for compatibility with our Dockingstation-Flexdesk setups.

I would have bought them in a heartbeat over Dell XPS 13s for our Customer
Support guys.

It makes me really sad because this points to longer clinging to the Surface
Pro 3 Connector, so the next Surface Pro & Surface Book are likely not to
ditch it in favor of TB3. I'm still on my Surface Pro 2 and want to upgrade
badly, but this makes me look elsewhere. Sadly.

~~~
agmcleod
> Dead on Arrival for our company.

It's not for professionals, it's for students.

------
kartan
Installing "Windows 10 S" is like getting one of that ink printers that cost
$40, but then you pay $60 for each ink cartridge. To minimize the impact,
Microsoft allows for an upgrade to a real version of Windows. It is an smart
move, as it lowers the friction to later on remove that possibility completely
(I hope that not in this model).

The hardware looks good, but it is another movement towards the "technology
tax" where hardware vendors get profit from other company's software
development. It is like being a door to door vendor and having to paying 30%
of revenue to your car's manufacturer. Internet Service Providers tried this
and failed, hardware manufacturers succeeded.

~~~
wvenable
This allows Microsoft to shave a few dollars off the price in order to either
make it up via the app store or get users to pay the difference for Pro. It's
both terrible and brilliant.

------
adam12
Is this really a Chromebook competitor with a price starting at $999?

~~~
dangrossman
"New Windows 10 Education PCs will be coming out soon from partners including
Asus, Samsung, Dell, and HP, starting at $189."

The Surface Laptop isn't meant to compete with those. Like everything else in
the Surface line, it's more of an example to the rest of the industry of what
kind of devices they could/should be building for Windows to run on.

~~~
kyriakos
189 will be low res & atom based but I guess you get what you pay for.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
I have a cheap Windows 2-in-1 that lists for $180 but I picked up for $100.

I'm reasonably happy with it, except for the touchpad (planning to get a mouse
and disable), but for the price it's certainly a fine computer. It's
definitely what I'd buy for a kid.

I expect that MS is just encouraging more of those kinds of devices to be
made, maybe with slightly better HW.

------
killjoywashere
Fabric on a horizontal surface my fingers are supposed to touch 1000 times a
day for the next 3-5 years? So gross.

------
tdicola
This seems like a couple years too late. Just from specs alone there are
better laptops coming out of China today from Xiamo, Chuwi, etc. Stuff like
the Xiaomi Mi book ([https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/27/xiaomi-mi-notebook-
air-l...](https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/27/xiaomi-mi-notebook-air-laptop-
china/)) or Chuwi Lapbook ([http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-laptops-
chuwi-prices...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-laptops-chuwi-prices-
its-new-hi-res-display-lapbook-12-3-at-350/)) that are thinner, lighter, have
high resolution displays, etc. and that cost significantly less than $999.
This just looks like something forgettable that will be lost in a sea of
middling Windows ultrabooks.

------
cdnsteve
Video and more info here:
[https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2017/05/02/introducing-
sur...](https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2017/05/02/introducing-surface-
laptop-powered-by-windows-10-s/#0A3MMFxFQGtey0zo.97)

[https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/windows-10-s](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-s)

Windows 10 S integrates with OneDrive so files are saved to the cloud, in sync
and accessible from your devices. Use compatible apps available from the
Windows Store. If you need to use professional tools or would rather run non-
Store apps, you can easily and affordably switch to Windows 10 Pro.7

~~~
sctb
Thanks, we've updated the link from [https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/02/watch-
microsoft-unveil-its...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/02/watch-microsoft-
unveil-its-windows-10-based-chromebook-competitor-live-right-here).

------
yoodenvranx
The display has a 3:2 aspect ratio, I hope that means that we slowly move away
from 16:9 screens on laptops.

~~~
eugeniub
What's wrong with 16:9?

~~~
amiga-workbench
Only useful for consuming content. It's like working through a slit when it
comes to content authoring. 16:10 adsorbs a lot of toolbars.

~~~
amyjess
Only useful for consuming _certain kinds_ of content. It's great for movies
but terrible for comic books.

I got my Surface Pro 3 with digital comics in mind, and one of the reasons I
chose it is that it has a 12" screen with a 3:2 aspect ratio, which is exactly
the same as a real comic book. Double-page spreads are a little awkward, but
for single pages, it's like I'm holding a (very heavy) comic in my hands.
Marvel Unlimited and the Surface Pro line go together like peanut butter and
chocolate.

I actually use my Surface in portrait mode 90% of the time. It's great for
reading text too. My favorite way to read online fiction now is to grab my
Surface, flop down on my couch, and read while holding it in portrait mode.

------
msh
I know windows 10s is supposed to be lean, but 4GB of ram in a 999$ laptop
seems stingy. Even apple gives you more RAM for 999$

------
threatofrain
Direct Link =>
[http://event.microsoft.com/MayEvent/](http://event.microsoft.com/MayEvent/)

~~~
Mithaldu
FYI, and in case it's not visible to you, your last two posts are "dead" and
you may have been hell-banned.

~~~
threatofrain
Who does the hell banning?

~~~
Mithaldu
Note, "may". But if you're not sure the best option is generally to send an
email to the moderators via the "contact" link at the bottom.

~~~
threatofrain
If a mod opaquely wants me gone, then there's probably nothing to gain by
fighting back... thanks for letting me know though.

~~~
Mithaldu
Well, given that your other recent posts show up fine, i doubt it's actually
that. So might be worth asking what happened in any case. Plus, that docking
post is really good and i'd like more people to think that open-minded.

------
deelowe
I wonder if tying this to the windows store is a good move. The reception thus
far hasn't been extremely encouraging.

~~~
sddfd
I think the windows store just did not fit the usage patterns: People were
used to download stuff right off the net, or use platforms like Valve's Steam.

On a chromebook-style laptop, expectations might be different.

I personally don't like the walled-garden aspect of app-stores, but I like
that there is someone who can effectively respond if malware is reported.
Sometimes malware is even proactively removed.

For non-power-users this is definitely an advantage. I hope in a few years I
can just tell my parent to only install software from the app store, and they
will be fine. Additionally, they don't have to do anything to stay up-to-date.

Even for power users there is a (theoretical) advantage, which is explicit
dependency management. Once you know that all your software is distributed
through one channel, libraries and versions can effectively be shared. This is
what happens in the Free Software version of app stores: All major distros
have them, and without them dependency management would be impossible.

So what is the potential gain here? In some version of the future, we might
hope that apps don't include hard-copy versions of the libraries they are
using, but just tell the app-store which versions they like to use. Security
updates can then be pushed by the app-store vendor vs the app vendor.

~~~
52-6F-62
> For non-power-users this is definitely an advantage. I hope in a few years I
> can just tell my parent to only install software from the app store, and
> they are fine. Additionally, they don't have to do anything to stay up-to-
> date. I think this is often so easily overlooked for the technologically
> inclined.

\------

It's also not a situation that will likely dissipate. For instance, if in 100
years we're all (I dream) boarding starships, do the engineers really expect
the average passenger or crew to understand the intricate workings of the
entire vessel? Is this true for airplanes now?

Computers are essentially a vehicle for knowledge. If it's not where one is at
one moment, it is where one can arrive. Not everyone who drives a car is an
automotive engineer, kinetics or physics expert, or even a mechanic. Most
people just want or need to get in and drive. Demanding more of somebody who's
true goal is to become an expert in a subject that doesn't involve technical
engineering is frankly just stupid. This is one of the things I liked about
Steve Jobs, in that he believed this. Of course, that developed into the
walled-garden approach but I think that's something else altogether.

It's far more beneficial for the world to have easy access to knowledge than
to wish everybody saw computers and other technology the way people like us
who spend time on tech forums do.

TL;DR - I agree! But I also think there's much more to be said about that.

------
humanfromearth
Wouldn't that fabric get dirty over time? I usually use wet towels to clean
the keyboard area on my laptop, how would you clean that fabric though?

~~~
j-c-m
For most cleanup a damp towel would work fine, if it got really dirty there
are purpose designed Alcantara/Microsuede cleaners.

------
simonebrunozzi
Only one question for Microsoft: touchpad. I have a Macbook and touchpads are
just vastly superior to anything else in the market. If they nailed this, they
have a new customer.

~~~
chokolad
If it's similar to Surface Book's one (and I suspect it is) - then it comes
very close to Macbooks. I was spoiled by MacBook Pro's touchpad and felt that
even "premium" Windows laptops have shitty ones but Surface Book touchpad is
very good. It has slightly smaller amount of gestures, but the basics are
there.

~~~
temp246810
This is not true - have to disagree.

The touchpad on a mac is not mechanical - you get a uniform "click" no matter
where you press.

For PC laptops, the touchpads are still mechanical and work almost as if on a
hinge. The hinge is at the top of the pad so clicking near there sometimes is
impossible.

~~~
chokolad
are you talking about Surface Book's touchpad specifically or PC touchpads in
general ? Also, when did touchpad on the mac stopped being mechanical? My
experience is with pre retina MacBook Pro.

~~~
masivemunkey
They stopped being mechanical in the Early 2015 models, now they use force
touch, which mimics a click using vibration.

It allows you to click anywhere on the touchpad with feedback (it feels like
an actual click), which is pretty awesome, but you get used to it quick and it
makes it hard to switch back and forth between a regular touchpad and a force
touchpad.

You should go to an apple store and check it out.

------
jhoechtl
Will it run Linux out of the box?

------
kris-s
Loving the move away from 16:9 aspect ratios. Looks like some serious
competition for Apple's notebooks.

------
greyfox
So is this just another veiled attempt to repeat Windows RT? it says it runs
only windows store apps.

------
mcintyre1994
There's a fascinating story I'd love to hear about Microsoft's education
strategy and how they seem to have lost it to Google. At least in the UK in
comprehensives when I was in school (I guess I left 4-5 years ago) Microsoft
absolutely dominated - every computer was Windows, and if you did a
presentation it was PowerPoint, a poster it was Publisher etc etc. In fact I
believe that the curriculum for most subjects involved some sort of computer
skills.. which was always Microsoft stuff (or I guess computer research counts
too).

ICT was exclusively Microsoft too. It's so bad that when I was looking at
universities for Computer Science many actively discouraged an ICT A Level and
I can't think of any that rewarded it in any way. They owned the ICT
curriculum, I wouldn't be surprised if they literally wrote it. The closest
thing to practical programming was recording VB macros. My ICT teacher told us
they got major discounts from Microsoft and I imagine that goes for every
similar school.

There is a computing curriculum but my course didn't even offer it - which
isn't a surprise because our ICT teacher had no programming knowledge. I
imagine most similar schools were in the same situation, where all they taught
was Microsoft-sanctioned ICT to an exam/curriculum that might as well have
been written by Microsoft, using Microsoft software exclusively, to the extent
that ICT is a negative for technical further education where it should be a
boost.

Everyone leaving school knowing only how to use Microsoft things was obviously
good for them, they controlled or might as well have the entire judgement of
student's ICT knowledge through exams, I wonder how they blew it.

------
bigly
I find it annoying that you have to purchase the high-end $2200 configuration
if you want to have 16 GB of RAM. I'd be fine with an i5, 256 GB SSD and 16 GB
of RAM.

------
shahbaby
Wow! They took out all the things that made the surface useful for college
students and then marketed it towards them.

A surface pro/book is a fully functional laptop which could eliminate the need
for carrying around large piles of papers/notes.

Take that away and what you have left is just a regular laptop (with a
touchscreen that's rarely used).

There's probably a market for this but it's not going to be college students.

------
bobsgame
This laptop is awesome! I hope they will update the removable dynamic hinge
model as well, I really liked it.

I do have some concern that Windows S may be another step towards the "boiling
the frogs" that Tim Sweeney was warning about. I think he is very wise in
saying we should be wary of Microsoft gradually closing Windows down as a
platform.

------
kyriakos
Its not as bad as it first sounds. You can run full office, you have an ok
browser and casual games. Its obviously not made for most of the people on HN
but it fits the requirements for a lot of people business and home users.
Assuming they release some very cheap laptops / convertibles running it it
could work.

~~~
jbigelow76
I wonder if this year at Build or anytime in the near future we will see a
version of Visual Studio distributed via the Windows app store? Seems it will
have to get there eventually. I wouldn't mind kicking the tires on Windows S
but needing VS would keep me on Pro were a new Windows laptop to be in my
future.

~~~
flukus
Being in the app store requires you go through the file dialog to get
permission to read/write/create any files outside the app file, so VS will
never work.

------
zod50
the surface laptop isn't a chromebook competitor, it's more of a macbook
air/pro competitor. the windows 10 S based laptops manufactured by asus, acer,
dell, fujitsu, hp, samsung, toshiba are the real chromebook competitors. i
think its basically windows 10 S Vs chrome OS.

------
smrtinsert
Windows 10 'lite'? DOA.

------
vthallam
I was like 'Wow' until I saw the price. You can't target college students with
Windows S which only runs apps from the Windows store.

Edit : missed the part which says, you can upgrade to 10.

~~~
jlebrech
and for $999, what are they thinking? basically $1049 for something that does
school stuff + gaming badly.

can't you get a VX5 for that price? or chromebook + gaming rig.

------
znpy
I find it to have a very nice design.

Also, I think it's really time to drop custom laptop chargers the same way we
all did for phone chargers, and switch to USB-C for power supplying.

------
mtw
I'm underwhelmed - but that's probably because I'm not the targeted user. 4GB
of RAM... a youtube video, a chat window, facebook, google docs and then it
will be out of memory? Also no nvidia card for graphics acceleration (VR,
gaming, machine learning). Also I'm sure many kids will find a way to hack it
and install steam and other good apps.

I just hope it's an entrée before Microsoft introduces the next generation of
surface books.

~~~
flukus
> 4GB of RAM... a youtube video, a chat window, facebook, google docs and then
> it will be out of memory?

I think your criticism is better directed at those apps than at the laptop
manufacturer.

------
RichardHeart
I hear that most kids live on their phones. Phones are really powerful these
days. If kids did their schoolwork on the same device they spent all their
time on anyway, it could save lots of money, and latency switching. Plugging
peripherals into phones isn't too hard. I don't think educational institutions
are getting much value out of the near thousand dollar phones kids live on
these days.

------
nepotism2016
" up to four more hours of battery power than a 13” MacBook Pro __. "

isn't this sign of defeat? mentioning another competitor in your marketing

~~~
steego
Only if you're already the dominant player. If you're the dominant player and
you mention the second competitor, you're lending them your credibility by
suggesting you can even be compared to them.

Microsoft is in a different boat. They have to compare themselves to the
dominant player, because first question people ask themselves is: Why
shouldn't I just buy the dominant product? Why should I break from the wisdom
of the crowd?

------
AngeloAnolin
_Available for pre-order today, Surface Laptop brings the superior performance
and security of Windows 10 S to a laptop that college students will love._

with a price tag of:

 _Surface Laptop starts at $999 USD and will be available beginning on June
15th._

Are they really focused only for students? Is price tag reasonable for the
student in this case?

------
emsy
I haven't seen any info whether the display is detachable or not and if it's
compatible with the pen. If not that's a huge missed opportunity, especially
if they're targeting the education sector. As other comments already pointed
out, other companies are already doing small Windows laptops better and
cheaper.

~~~
dragonwriter
360-degree flip pen support (e.g., like Samsung's newest Chromebook) would be
good enough, and more typical of laptop-vs-tablet.

------
slaymaker1907
Windows 10 S makes me cry. It's the end of an era if it takes off and I can
never forgive Microsoft for this.

------
skykooler
I wonder how well Linux will run on this?

~~~
pizza234
Likely, poorly to "kind of OK".

Almost 3 years after release, SP3 is at the "kind of OK" status, on the
bleeding edge kernel (4.11-rc8).

Situation improves if you're willing to using an old, pre-patched kernel, or
you can patch by yourself.

------
ForFreedom
Microsoft attempt is to show good profit and there is nothing else to it.

Windows 10 cannot be MacOSX. These are two different entities.

Putting on a new dress, installing it in a new hardware, giving it a new name
does not change the fact that windows S is close to windows 10.

I work daily on MacOSX, Win 10 and linux

------
hartator
It reminds me of the MacBook 12". Apple is again late to update it - was "due"
this April.

~~~
akeck
Often, Apple misses their update estimates because their CPU/chipset vendor
can't meet their required thermal specs for that particular model. The MacBook
12" guts fit in a tiny space under the top of the keyboard, near the hinge.
All other space has been used for batteries. I expect the MacBook 12" to
become an A-series ARM laptop sooner rather than later, so that Apple has full
control over the thermal specs of the CPU/chipset.

------
neuralzen
I wonder if sleep mode actually works on it, unlike previous iterations of the
surface models.

------
norswap
If I may venture a prediction, the dealbreaker is going to be the price.

MacBooks are overpriced, and have grown more so, and it looks like Microsoft
is trying to position itself on that premium segment (the Surface tablets
being ridiculously overpriced).

------
nxc18
Really, really disappointed by the lack of Windows on ARM news. All the rumors
were pointing to it, but it looks like we're stuck with Intel.

Not that Intel is bad, and its gotten better on mobile, but still, legitimate
choice would be nice.

~~~
Analemma_
I imagine if there is news to share on that front, it will happen at
Microsoft's developer conference, which is next week. So don't give up hope
yet.

------
erickhill
Since this is a Surface, is the screen touchable? It's a pretty machine, but
the brand seems slightly fragmented. What does "surface" stand for at this
stage?

I wonder if we'll see iPad Laptops someday, too?

~~~
agmcleod
They mentioned in the announcement that it supports the Pen. So yes it's
touch.

------
RikNieu
Call me when it runs Ubuntu.

~~~
JBiserkov
Last call for passenger RikNieu! x86/x64 Inyel CPUs can run Ubuntu.

Also, after you upgrade it to Windows Pro free until end of 2017, $50
afterwards) you can run Ubuntu in a VM, or natively using the miracle that is
WSL.

So 3 ways this can run Ubuntu, each with it's own cost/benefit balance.

------
laughfactory
Bottom line: anybody handing a $1000 computer to kid better have deep pockets.
I can replace a Chromebook four times for what one Surface laptop costs.

------
zmmmmm
Shame no 32GB option. The worst thing about Apple not offering it is that it
has taken pressure off competitors. Laptops supporting 32GB are quite rare
beasts as a result.

------
mbrock
"When the work is done and it’s time to relax, you can watch 14 episodes of
your favorite TV show in one sitting, without ever plugging in."

I'm glad I'm not the only one...

------
hdhzy
I'm looking forward to initial reviews. It looks absolutely fantastic but
being heavily burned by Dell XPS 13 (9350) I'll rather wait a little bit...

------
brian_herman
Finally, someone has created a laptop with my favorite color blue. I love my
surface book but a surface laptop would be even better in blue also.

------
grandalf
I keep waiting for the price of these things to dip below $400. $999 is a very
premium price and makes it hard to buy it as an impulse purchase.

------
yuhong
Has anything been said about PAE or are the rumors wrong? (I remember it
mentioning 4GB of RAM but also a 32-bit version for only 32GB of storage.)

------
d0100
I'm a MS fanboy of sorts, but I'll never buy any piece of hardware that has
that stupidly horrifying crooked logo of theirs.

------
CJefferson
I'm sick of aluminium computers. This really attracted me, until I found that
I can only have the colours with the most basic model :\

~~~
cultofmetatron
why? it holds up to wear and tear better than plastic and lets heat escape.

------
sandGorgon
> _Testing conducted by Microsoft in April 2017 using preproduction Intel Core
> i5, 256GB, 8 GB RAM device_

Which processor are they using ?

------
visarga
Is it possible to put Ubuntu on it?

------
accountyaccount
>using the Surface Dial/ __ __* to run your Spotify playlist

rolling deep with the asterisks here

------
jlebrech
so for the price of a gaming laptop, or a chromebook + gaming pc you can have
a laptop with a cut down version of windows 10? or am i missing something.

------
nkkollaw
I don't exactly love the carpet thing, but the main problem is definitely
Windows 10S.

Despite what Apple is trying to push, I would not like a laptop running iOS,
and an iPad Pro is definitely not a "computer".

------
WD-42
Will it run Linux?

------
magoon
Another unmemorable, ambiguous product name from Microsoft. This one actually
contains "Laptop" \-- maybe the next will be "Surface Computer"?

------
zyngaro
Any chance this beauty runs Linux is mac os?

------
romanovcode
I think this is great! Average Joe doesn't need any Win32 applications anymore
and this will do nicely.

If you want to upgrade to Win10 Home it's just 50 dollars.

~~~
popuptent
$50 to switch a boolean?

~~~
devrandomguy
If you can predict a cosmic ray strike with great precision, then you might be
able to get that bit flipped for free.

------
jlebrech
might be able to install steam on this?

~~~
tankenmate
Highly unlikely, Valve have always said they won't pay Microsoft the 30% fee.
Having said that it's been reported that Valve charges a similar fee on Steam.

~~~
jlebrech
what do you mean? it's not x86?

~~~
rpeden
tankenmate is saying that it will only run applications installed from the
Windows Store. Steam isn't in the store, and isn't going to be int he store,
because they don't want to give Microsoft a cut of their revenue.

~~~
jlebrech
that makes sense, I bet it won't be that hard to crack though.

------
MrZipf
Clickbait. No story until unveiling event.

~~~
dade_
The live streaming video is at the link.

~~~
cJ0th
Yeah, seems so. However, real press conferences and satirical ones are so
similar these days that I can't really tell which one I am watching right now.
;)

------
mtgx
And the price is?

------
io-io
... at 15 seconds into the first video, it clearly shows an i7 chip. The specs
call out an i5. So, M$- what exactly is it? Bait and switch? Also, I want to
load my own software - not the crap from your $tore.

~~~
burkaman
[https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/product...](https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/productID.5102691100?VID=5105347700)

You can pay more for an i7, and you can switch to Windows 10 Pro if you want a
normal OS that runs anything.

------
sergiotapia
Let's stop doing clickbait on HN please.

~~~
tyleo
I have seen a few messages about this being clickbait. I am confused by this.
I clicked on a link and it is an unveiling of a new Surface which seems to be
a Chromebook competitor since it is aimed at the education market. That seems
to be in line with what the title says. What qualifies this as clickbait?

~~~
wastedhours
When it was first posted it was before any announcement, thus the headline was
based on guesswork and rumours as opposed to linking to an article containing
any actual information.

------
iamNumber4
We should all be taking offense by this.

This is the drug dealer play book, Hook the kids early, so that when they are
adults they go with what they know, instead of being critical thinkers and
evaluating the available products to pick the best technical solution for the
needs at hand.

this is why small to mid-sized companies are struggling with MS server
products, and are locked into this merry-go-round licensing fees. Other
products that could alleviate are ignored because of F.U.D. Thus giving us
Camps of Pro Apple, Pro Microsoft, anti open source, pro open source.

We should be teaching kids at a young age about all platforms, what they are
good for, what they are not. So that we can educate the next generation of
workers about computers in general. while not trying to indoctrinate them into
a particular platform.

So educators and decision makers please take heed, and realize life is about
choice., We should be teaching about choices, and then evaluating the choices
once made. Then regardless of the choices we make, we learn from the outcome.
If you make a poor choice, you are free to make a different choice the next
time around.

~~~
EpicEng
Is everyone a programmer or engineer in your reality?

~~~
orbitingpluto
I'd rather see an assortment of different products in schools. Web
functionality is pretty much the only thing that has to be common for all.

Teachers should be taught the principles of connecting to Wi-Fi, just like the
students. How to figure things out on your own is more or less the whole point
of computers in schools. Maybe I just like the directed chaos of Montessori.

