
Lord British launches “Shroud of the Avatar” on Kickstarter - mmastrac
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/portalarium/shroud-of-the-avatar-forsaken-virtues-0
======
gebe
Might as well chime in with another Kickstarter in progress for a spiritual
successor of another famous RPG:
[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-
of-...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera)

Kickstarter has been really great so far for people, like myself, who were and
are very fond of the "old school" type of RPGs.

~~~
pearle
Yeah, I'm surprised the Torment KS didn't appear on HN after it ended up being
the fastest KS to hit 1 million (8 hours).

~~~
sp332
According to HN Search, several people posted it but none of them got more
that 5 points.

------
danso
> _Multiplayer Online Game - which can also be played solo player / offline_

I remember when UO came out...I never played it but I wondered if it would be
the end of good single-player RPGs. Luckily, it wasn't, but it was basically
the end of Ultima as a series, though arguably it wasn't a causation. In any
case, it's hard to imagine an RPG world that could be designed successfully to
be a MMO and a good single player experience.

Good single player experiences are bespoke storytelling affairs...and to
abstract it out to accomodate MMO interaction would seem to necessarily dilute
it.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm not at all against games that just
end, rather than try to shoot to be a world in which you can fully "live a
life" and in which the world is infinitely evolving. It's not that such a
prospect isn't interesting, it's just that it inevitably leads to the kind of
feature creep that leads to bugs and outright brokenness (insert reference to
SimCity). I'm OK with games ending after 50-100 hours (or even 10, in the case
of the Portal series), if those hours were fantastic.

I'd contribute if Lord British were going to make a modernized version of
Ultima VII. Even though the limits of its world are obvious in retrospect, it
really was way ahead of its time in creating a believable digital world for
the single-player, and the constructs it used to maintain that facade (and
have a story arc) would not have worked if it were a MMO.

~~~
creamyhorror
Ultima VII has remained my fondest memory of an RPG. It was a world that, in
comparison to its contemporaries, was practically alive, a living, changing
place (that I could visit with my specially tweaked CONFIG.SYS and
AUTOEXEC.BAT). I think TES has done a good job of taking up the mantle that
Ultima VII set down, but for me nothing will duplicate the childhood wonder of
encountering the level of immersion and detail that Ultima VII offered.

About simulations: after playing MUDs I wished for evolving worlds, player
clans with the ability to claim territory and build structures, NPC factions
that battled among themselves, ecologies, simulated NPCs that responded to
invasions and events, the works. These have been achieved to some extent in
recent games, but maybe the magic lies in the storytelling in the end.

Maybe what we need is professional scripters running MMO cities: imagine Lord
British essentially playing himself as a full-time job, with the ability to
spin quests and stories that permanently change the fabric of the world, fight
off invading lords, launch expeditions, rezone areas, fund guilds, run his
realm. That way we can have complex world simulations, player-driven clans,
and the human storytelling element, all richly combined.

(I wish I'd played UO, it sounds fantastic. Realistically, I won't have the
time or energy to play SotA intensively, but I'd certainly like to try it. Too
bad it isn't 2.5D isometric...)

~~~
gavanwoolery
I might just be working on your dream game:

<http://www.voxelquest.com>

Of course, whether or not I will ever get even close to finishing it is
another question. :)

~~~
creamyhorror
It worries me that you're writing your own game engine. Makes me think you
might be working on this project for another decade or more ;)

Then again, you might succeed like Eskil Steenberg did, after 4 years of
effort:
[http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27871/Interview_Eskil_Ste...](http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27871/Interview_Eskil_Steenberg_Explains_What_Makes_LOVE_Different.php)

I hope you succeed despite your extensive goals (building a deduction engine
in AI?). Really, I'd be happy just to play multiplayer in a fairly self-
running world that's perhaps more user-friendly than LOVE. I definitely think
multiplayer will attract more interest to your game.

If you haven't come across it, another HN user shared his UO-inspired project,
First Earth. It has more of a focus on allowing a natural player economy to
emerge, and the client is built in Unity. As someone who never experienced the
glory of UO, I'm waiting to give it a spin.

<http://firstearthgame.com/>

~~~
gavanwoolery
Yeah writing my own engine was a hard decision. On one hand, I hate writing
boiler-plate code, but on the other I have become so used to it at this point
that I can whip up a basic rendering engine in a few weeks (the most recent
iteration of my engine was written in two weeks of free time, in about 80
hours). I have wanted to use existing engines like Unity, but I have found
that they pigeon-hole you into a specific type of industry-standard workflow
that is not really good for me (for example I do not use any external assets,
everything is generated in-engine since I am not a very good artist).

That said, I'm just kind of taking everything one step at a time. When
Minecraft was first released, it was just a simple block-based world editor; I
intend to release the simplest thing I can first and work from there. As for
the AI, it is easier than it might seem to implement and I am not doing
anything that novel (primarily the deduction is based off of languages like
Prolog); I have implemented basic (test-based) prototypes in the past and I am
pretty happy with the results so far.

I'll have to check out First Earth; as for multiplayer, I am prioritizing it
last - not because I do not love a good multiplayer game, but because it is
the one thing I can safely remove and still have a fun (enough) game while
greatly reducing complexity.

Thanks for your thoughtful insights. :)

------
gavanwoolery
I grew up on the Ultima series - in fact it is exclusively the reason I became
a programmer and game developer. I do not know how good this recent iteration
will be, but at least it looks like Richard is keeping a close ear to his
community. In all honesty though I would have settled for a 2D/isometric non-
MMO (in the spirit of Ultima 7) -- I think that's where his original fans lie.

~~~
bstar77
My Ultima experience started with VI, but I remember distinctively walking
into Electronics Boutique and seeing Ultima VII on the shelf for the first
time. I could not believe the screenshots were real, it looked like everything
a RPG should be.

Ultima VI is was really got me into coding world simulations, but Ultima VII
really showed the potential of the genre. I think that's why Ultima VIII and
IX were such a disappointment.

The interactions, exploration and focus on virtues that hooked me into these
games. I could care less about the graphics if these elements are well done in
the new game.

~~~
gavanwoolery
I started on V but VI was really a leap forward for me. There was an
Electronics Boutique in the Fairfield Mall (a good half hour from where I grew
up) which was an amazing experience as a kid: you would walk into a store and
learn about 50 new games, no trailers, just your imagination fueled by box
art. The internet has kind of destroyed that sense of wonder/mystery, I feel
sorry for future generations. :)

~~~
bstar77
I agree 100%. For me it was Egghead Software in the late 80's early 90's. I
also had fun working in Babbages in the early-mid 90's while I was in high
school. Unfortunately, those years were mostly dominated by Myst and Mortal
Kombat sales. I think that's why I liked Egghead so much, no BS just computer
games/software.

~~~
cmalpeli
I worked at Babbages as well. Don't forget the NeoGeo ;)

Ultima VII was a wonder to me when it came out.

------
Erwin
I'm not sure what to feel when someone who spent (reportedly) $30MM for a
space trip: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Garriott#Spaceflight> asks
me for $1MM

But I guess the more power to semi-independent studios we can give through
Kickstarter the better.

I like the $10 "guilt pledge": "If you ever pirated an Ultima game or used an
exploit to grief other players in Ultima Online, here’s your chance to repent!
For your $10 donation you will receive a clear conscience and Lord British's
undying gratitude.".

~~~
jsnell
You're probably thinking of Kickstarter in its original "support a cool
project to make it happen" mindset. Like most high profile projects, this
isn't like that. It's one part marketing, one part a pre-order system, and one
part a market research tool. In that light the personal wealth of the project
owner is irrelevant.

------
rschmitty
For something different, here is a soon to be launched kickstarter. From
someone not as successful as Mr Garriot but if you played Dark Age of Camelot
you might be in love already

<http://citystateentertainment.com/camelotunchained/>

Here is a long interview describing the goals:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yBfRU8BTsNk)

View on what is wrong with MMOs @ 4:16

No more hand holding @ 7:00

Class System - Rock Paper Scissors @ 11:46

Race/Sex Considerations - Choices Matter @ 13:40

Crafting - First class crafting @ 18:18

Random Critical Hits - You will laugh and cry @ 25:17

Randomness for Crafting - Sometimes stuff will go horribly wrong/perfectly
right @ 31:11

Leveling - No PvE, unclear on soft vs hard caps at this stage @ 34:07

Kickstarter - Pick your rewards! @ 40:19

~~~
trotsky
I wasn't familiar with this, but Mark Jacobs is a founder and they are based
out of DC like Mythic was.

------
bobsy
I am going to rant about graphics here. The graphics on this game look 8 years
old. A game doesn't need to look fantastic to be good but surely a new game
should have good graphics. I am not talking about realistic graphics. Simply
esthetically pleasing graphics. The graphics in the video look like something
from runescape...

Looking elsewhere. Is this game not called 'Ultima Online' because Garriot
doesn't own the rights? A sequel in all but name?

While the vision sounds promising I worry about broader appeal. Who is this
game for? Tabula Rasa failed pretty badly. I don't quite see the appeal of
this game. Most MMO's have a clear goal. Even if that is the same. "Level up,
do quests, reach new areas, get gear." Perhaps I misunderstand but the goal of
this game seems to be 'explore for yourself.' I don't think that is enough to
pull people in. I have played the Ultima series. I still give Ultima Online a
spin every couple of months and this new game doesn't pull me in..

The video left me feeling like the game is a time sink without getting the
reward of getting little achievements like gaining levels and discovering new
gear. The very things that make such games addictive.

When I saw the title my first thought was "TAKE ALL MY MONEY NOW." After
seeing the video I think perhaps there is a reason why EA didn't take the
franchise further.

~~~
adventured
Imagine how poorly something like Minecraft would sell today. Minecraft was
amazing when it was released with a 256 color palette in 1993, but nobody
would go for that today.

People want graphics, not great gameplay...

No, they want great gameplay first, and great graphics second. That has always
been true and will always be true.

~~~
bobsy
What is wrong with the Minecraft? The game has a blocky style to it. The
artistic direction of the game suits it perfectly.

The issue I have is that this game appears to have no graphical style or
artistic direction. It looks like an incredibly generic low poly-count 3d
game.

Sure these are only prototypes but surely you wouldn't get this far into
development with models completely unrelated to the finished product?

~~~
RobotCaleb
It was sarcasm.

------
chjj
This is so great. I'm such a damn UO fan I can't even put it into words. I'm
not a "gamer", but UO was the __best__ game I've ever played. No game, as far
as I can tell, has even come close to replicating the brilliance of UO around
1998-1999. It probably gave me some of my best childhood memories, and it was
also the first time I was ever called a "fuking n00b" on the internet.

------
Kurtz79
I remember fondly Ultima 7 and Ultima Underworld 2.

Incredible titles, way ahead of their time.

Ultima 7 has probably more sophisticated interaction mechanics than 99% of the
games today.

~~~
jiggy2011
Name? Job?

~~~
Kurtz79
Bye.

------
simonsarris
I'm glad that "Meaningful PvP" was singled out. PvP is important to me and its
one of the things that Ultima Online got right that vast swaths of MMOs since
have floundered with (in my opinion).

In parts of the world (Felucca[1]), UO was a rare RPG where anyone could kill
anyone, for any reason, but with the repercussion that they would be branded a
"Bad person" (visible with a gray or red name instead of blue). Stealing from
good people corpses also did this. Anyone can attack and kill bad persons, and
if you killed even more people you were a murderer and it took a very long
time to return to normal.

You want to use super awesome powerful gear? None of this sissy MMO stuff. Die
and you lose it, and your enemy (or his enemy!) gets the spoils.[1]

Those are the two criteria by which I think "meaningful PvP" should be judged:

1\. Can I kill anyone? (ie, in WoW you can't kill 90% of the people you see,
they have to be in an arena/faction/alliance).

2\. When you kill someone do you actually win something? (preferably something
of theirs), and when you die do you actually lose something (preferably the
equipment you risked to try and have a more favorable fight).

Ultima and UO were very big into morality and moral dilemmas, which is a thing
I love in both single and multi-player games. Some of the Ultima games
featured very interesting choices, like whether or not you should kill "evil"
(possessed) children or leave them alone.

In UO, if you did have a "bad person" title and wanted to know how much time
you had left before you would be considered blue again, you had to type:

    
    
        "I must consider my sins"
    

~~~

The other problem I have with a lot of MMOs is that the power of your
character is simply how much time you sink into the game. Essentially, MMOs
are games that reward wasting time.

UO had so much more than that. The class-less system definitely helped, and UO
was a game where treachery and sneakiness really paid off, if you wanted them
to. Lots of ways to nearly instantly kill or entrap people lead to a lot of
very exciting plots where guilds might be laden with spies. Absolutely nothing
like the limited PvP found in many modern MMOs.

In a lot of ways UO was the Diplomacy (diplomatic back-stabbing board game) of
MMOs. And it was great.

See also outworlder's wonderful comment explaining UO 90 days ago[2]. Also
considerably interesting was the economy of UO[3], which was wrought with a
good deal of experimentation.

~~~

Also, if you played UO, you'd know that property taxes are a _wonderful_ idea.
So many people land-rushing to get the largest properties possible, who then
sat on them and never built anything! (Or never played, while newcoming
regulars had zero chance of ever finding a home at a reasonable price)

~~~

[1] In the beginning there was _only_ Felucca. And an insurance system was
added later (2005ish?) where you could pay a certain amount per item to not
lose it on death. Both were attempts to make the game less harsh. Like a lot
of later patches, this was unpopular with older players and popular with newer
players. Over its lifetime, UO did a lot of things to make the game world less
cut-throat, which will always be controversial. Some realms rules stayed more
"hardcore" than others as a compromise.

[2] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4890513>

[3] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4890481>

~~~
wodow
Vote yes to permanent death [1] in MMOs!

Richard Bartle: "[without permanent death] Newbies (and not-so-newbies) feel
they can never catch up. The people in front will always be in front, and
there's no way to overtake them. The horizon advances at the speed you
approach it." [2]

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_death> [2] Designing Virtual
Worlds, 2003

~~~
glurgh
Really, permanent death? PvP corpse looting? These are profoundly user-hating
mechanics and their removal is likely among the factors that made WoW
successful.

There are other ways to allow newbies to catch up and to incentivize or
disincentivize players that don't rely on 'ruining your month of gameplay'.

~~~
wodow
Yes, really - but it is a matter of taste as tsumnia says in the sibling
comment

In Monopoly, I can go bankrupt. In Nethack, I can (and often do) die. In Super
Mario Bros 1, I can lose all of my lives. In football, I can get knocked out
of the Champions League (by a red card).

In all of these cases, the fact that I can "lose" creates meaning - I care
more about the outcome and I appreciate my achievements more. And one never
loses everything - the skills stay with you. "Next time I can do better."

Counterbalancing, for a different mood: works like Ocarina of Time are still
great, but they sit separately - they're about the journey, not about the
achievements.

~~~
glurgh
I think the difference is that Monopoly, Nethack and Mario are intended to be
played short term. Of course you can lose terribly in Monopoly and Nethack
elevates dying to part of the gameplay.

The stakes are a little different in a long-term, persistent world MMO. The
Mario you died with is, for the most part, the same Mario you started with.
This is not the case in an MMO. Punishing you, irrevocably, for dying in that
situation is a dreadful, fun-destroying design choice.

Even in platformers, it's probably telling that one of the most successful
recent ones is Jon Blow's Braid where you not only don't die but you get to
reverse time.

------
erickhill
Per the title of this post, it's not exactly "Ultima" or a sequel. As found on
the official site's FAQ:

"But is this the Ultima sequel I’ve been waiting for?

This is NOT an “Ultima”, as that is a trademark owned by Electronic Arts.
Ultima fans know though, that great RPG’s can be been played anywhere; on
earth, in space, in Britannia and in many other lands. I am creating a new
land for Shroud of the Avatar, which will adhere to the design principles that
all of my FRPG games adhered to."
<https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?page_id=19>

------
chaostheory
> Since then, most every other RPG has focused more on level grinding then
> “role playing”, which has been reduced to a few initial character choices...
> Less open. Less immersive.

I don't think this team has played any RPGs over the past decade. Non of them
are like this other than JRPGs. It lessens his project's credibility.

~~~
Kurtz79
I agree. The Ultima games were ahead of their time but the industry eventually
catched up.

The first Fallout had terrific role playing already, and then all the Black
Isle, Bioware, Bethesda titles, the Gothic, Witcher series...

------
com2kid
It is somewhat interesting that an online multiplayer game is having more
difficulties raising funding than Torment, a single player RPG.

Both seemingly have similar old school appeal, though the Planescape Torment
audience is maybe slightly younger (5-8 years?) compared to fans of Ultima.

I'll admit, while I threw a good chunk of money at Torment, this Kickstarter
is less appealing to me just because it is Online.

I also feel that there is some ambiguity over the vision of this game. The FAQ
says this isn't an MMO , but you have online property you can buy and it has
PvP? I am seriously confused as to the genre of this game. Confused people
don't pledge.

------
estebank
> From Lord British's Treatise on "What is an Ultimate RPG?":

> * Fully interactive virtual world - If it looks usable, it should do
> something > * Deep original fiction - Ethical parables, cultural histories,
> fully developed alternate language text

This reminds me of the first Deus Ex. Wonder if they'll be able to pull it
off.

~~~
ordinathorreur
Game designer Warren Spector worked on both the Ultima series and Deus Ex
which might explain the similar philosophy.

------
adamrights
I played Quantum on Atlantic and Heroku and later helped run parts of the
Dr.Twister network :). Short of WoTMUD early UO is the best pk system I've
ever experienced. I still talk of game memories with my brother and my friend
Jason that played Sir Alf.

I don't think the felucca 'carebear' world helped the game. Yes, there were
some issues with griefing -- but the playerbase was in control (I admit I'd
polymorph into a slime around coveous, flag myself gray, and have people
attack me to freely pk them).

When Sir Alf and I used to raid this RP heavy village, and we became a
nuisance -- they hired guards...real players -- to keep us at bay. Eventually
they befriended us and paid us in regents and offered protection.

We once betrayed a friend in-game and the father called us -- I learned peer
mediation from UO :)

I got my first case of the shakes.

I wish LB the best in this venture

------
viseztrance
Kotaku has a rather lengthy interview which you may want to checkout as well
as some extra game play.

[http://kotaku.com/5989447/richard-garriott-revolutionized-
vi...](http://kotaku.com/5989447/richard-garriott-revolutionized-video-game-
rpgs-now-the-creator-of-ultima-wants-to-do-it-again)

------
lordofmoria
The timing on this and the Torment kickstarter is truly impeccable, with all
the hate at DRM, EA. What better way to vent frustrations than help support
the revival of the old-school?

Personally, I really hope this succeeds. If KS represents the next generation
of game studios/production, then I'm all for it.

------
brisance
Inevitably, there will always be tension between the creative aspects of one's
vision and the need for viable product to keep the lights on.

SotA is _NOT_ UO or Ultima I-IX. It's a clean slate. Yes, it's good to have
discussions about PvP and whatnot, because we are passionate about these
things that have been with us through the years. On the other hand, consider
why RG chose to go through Kickstarter. It's to free himself, his idea, from
meddling managers who only care about the bottom line, the lowest common
denominator, and not the creative aspects. And that's what kills art.

I would prefer that we discuss what new and interesting behavior could arise
if a certain gameplay mechanic were implemented, instead of "SotA needs
PvP/perma-death/what-have-you because every other MMO has it".

------
kdazzle
Man, Ultima Online was so good. I would love to see this.

And corpse-looting gave PvP adrenaline rushes and was something that UO did
really well. Without that huge sense of having something to lose, the fights
become meaningless and stale. Like in gambling.

------
Apocryphon
Kickstarter should spin out their video games category into its own brand.
After all of the long-dead series/genres they've been reviving, they're the
most beloved "publisher" in ages, the direct opposite of EA/Activision.

------
Yuioup
I was going to back then until I realised it's an MMO. Not since 1995 did I
ever want anything to do with MMO's and I have no intention of playing them.

Please give me a meaningful single player experience.

------
adventureloop
Kickstarter page is not up yet, but there is a live streamed announcement via
<http://www.lordbritishpresents.com/>.

~~~
mmastrac
Odd. I'm seeing the kickstarter page myself. Already 200+ backers.

~~~
adventureloop
The links on lordbritishpresents.com didn't have the -0 at the end. I only got
on once someone tweeted a different link. It might be because I was watching
as the timer stopped.

------
justjimmy
Wow…just when I thought there was no more hope in MMO, this definitely revived
my interest.

I've always been a fan of: 1\. Skill based system vs. Level/Class based
system. 2\. Looting Corpses/Houses 3\. Player Housing 4\. True/Open PvP

Having said that, I'm not going to come near this game if it's going to offer:
1\. Trammel 2\. Insurance 3\. Closed PvP 4\. Class/Level System

I don't mind the dated graphic looks. Look forward to more info.

Hopefully they'll bring some old school principles and mechanics back.

------
lnanek2
Really preferred the original title on this Hacker News story. More people
know what Ultima is, and the creator launching a new project means something
to far more people than his specific nick or the new projects name. The
submitter's title was much better.

------
ssdsa
Holy cow! Everyone who pledged $10.000 or more receives a copy of "Akalabeth"!
[ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akalabeth:_World_of_Doom> ]

------
bentcorner
Hmm..

Kickstarter Estimated delivery date: Oct 2014

Amazon authorized payment window: July 2013

This should be interesting...

~~~
sirn
Kickstarter will charge your credit card as soon as the funding ends (April 7)
so the payment window date should not matter.

------
potatoman2
I'd pitch in if they promised to base the engine off Ultima 8.

~~~
ralphleon
Why not ultima 7? Ultima8 wasn't as interactive as ultima7 imho.

~~~
Kurtz79
I agree, graphics were prettier, but controls were sluggish and unresponsive.
Jumping mechanics were a nightmare.

The series really started its downward slope from there.

~~~
estebank
Very, very recommended: Ultima Retrospective[1] by "Spoony". Goes into detail
on the rise and fall of Ultima.

[1]: [http://spoonyexperiment.com/category/game-reviews/ultima-
ret...](http://spoonyexperiment.com/category/game-reviews/ultima-
retrospective/)

~~~
CamperBob2
Holy unskippable obnoxious video ads, Batman!

------
boksiora
I like it

------
papsosouid
It is pretty sad that kickstarter gets abused like this so much. Garriott is
filthy rich, and has been in the game industry for decades. There is
absolutely no need for him to be seeking financing from us, he could pay for
it a dozen times over out of his own pocket. His reputation means he could
easily get actual funding if he doesn't want to risk his own money. But
instead, he abuses the willingness of ordinary people to take all the risk for
him, and get nothing back in return.

~~~
finnh
? Kickstarter functions in this case as a pre-ordering process. They do not
"get nothing back in return" - they get a copy of the game when it's done.

That's like saying that rich entrepeneurs should fully fund their next
company, rather than seeking VC. Sure, it's one way to do it, but it's not the
only way...

~~~
papsosouid
Except VCs get equity, they get a return on their investment. Not a copy of
the product. Do you think ycombinator should have funded dropbox in exchange
for a free dropbox account? Like I said in the post you replied to, he has
access to VC funding. He chose not to take it because he can abuse kickstarter
to get the same funds without giving up anything in return. It is nothing like
saying they should fund it personally instead of taking VC money, I
specifically said taking VC money was one of the two options he should have
taken.

~~~
icebraining
How is it an abuse? Because you don't like it?

How about treating the backers like adults who can make their own decisions?
Your position comes across as very patronizing.

~~~
papsosouid
Because it is contrary to the stated purpose of kickstarter. I am treating the
backers like adults. Why do you think that "hey, that's really not what
kickstarter is for" is patronizing?

~~~
icebraining
Where exactly is that stated? As far as I know, and according to the FAQ and
project guidelines of Kickstarter, there's no rule or implicit understanding
that only creators who can't fund their own projects should apply. In fact,
they specifically mention that KS is about more than money.

And I find it patronizing because your complaint is about the poor backers who
get nothing for their money. Why exactly do you feel qualified to judge that
on their behalf? It's up to them to know what they get in return, and if that
should or not be important in their decision to back the project.

~~~
sp332
Yeah, they were pretty explicit that KS is for funding projects and not really
a pre-order system. <http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-
store>

~~~
icebraining
That wasn't papsosouid's complaint, which pertained to the fact that the
project creator can afford to pay for the project, and so shouldn't be using
KS.

