
Apple accuses Epic of “Willful, brazen, and unlawful” conduct - asimpletune
https://www.scribd.com/embeds/475308825/content?start_page=1&view_mode=scroll&access_key=key-ihvcnd8DjMlZZ1lZfrOW
======
gpm
Duplicate of
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24412810](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24412810)

Also, editorialized title.

~~~
nanagojo
It's not an article link, so don't see how it can be editorialized. The title
itself is a quote from the document as well.

> Epic fired the first shot in this dispute, and its willful, brazen, and
> unlawful conduct cannot beleft unchecked. Neither Mr. Sweeney’s self-
> righteous (and self-interested) demands nor the scale ofEpic’s business can
> justify Epic’s deliberate contractual breaches, its tortious conduct, or its
> unfair business practices. This Court should hold Epic to its contractual
> promises, award Applecompensatory and punitive damages, and enjoin Epic from
> engaging in further unfair business practices

~~~
gpm
It's not an article, but the document has a title

> APPLE’S ANSWER AND COUNTERCLAIMS TO EPIC’S COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF

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tomc1985
And "Apple accuses Epic of “Willful, brazen, and unlawful” conduct" seems much
more catchy while still using wording from the legal document, wouldn't you
agree?

~~~
runesoerensen
I'm sure GP would agree, as that seems to be the reason for mentioning that
the title was editorialized in the first place (and probably also why OP chose
the most inflammatory quote in the source rather than the more neutral
document title)

Inflammatory, click-baity titles can be "catchy" for sure, but that doesn't
mean we have to use them here. The fact that it uses _" wording from the legal
document"_ doesn't make it a good title, regardless of how catchy it is.

 _".. please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait;
don't editorialize."_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

In any case it's a dupe as GP correctly pointed out while linking to the
existing and more substantial discussion.

------
pier25
> _Left unchecked, Epic’s conduct threatens the very existence of the iOS
> ecosystem and its tremendous value to consumers._

A bit apocalyptic, no Apple?

~~~
BluSyn
Imagine Facebook forcing users to install their own App Store to install
Messenger. I think such outcomes are quite apocalyptic if you see what road
that leads down.

~~~
pier25
But they would still be using iOS, right?

~~~
manicdee
I trust the iphone with my medical information because Apple has controls in
place in their App Store review process to prevent that data being leaked out
of the phone.

I do not trust Facebook to avoid leaking that data out of my phone.

~~~
pier25
Apple makes sure an app cannot get data outside its sandbox without your
permission, but it has no control over what the app does with its own data.
For example, I've backed up and synced data with a server on iOS apps without
needing any special permission from Apple or infringing AppStore policies.

What you're describing here is not really related to the App Store policies
but your trust on the Apple apps themselves.

~~~
manicdee
Did your app description make statements about handling health data?

------
fooey
Apples going for blood.

They're asking the court to give them all the commissions Epic failed to pay
while their direct payment system was online, going out of their way to
describe it as theft.

> Award restitution and disgorgement of all earnings, profits, compensation,
> benefits, and other ill-gotten gains obtained by Epic as a result of its
> conduct inviolation of the UCL

~~~
notyourwork
I find it interesting that subscription services (Spotify or Netflix for
example) can have multiple channels for subscription and get away with it.
What part of this am I missing that makes Epic's use case unique.

~~~
rrrrrrrrrrrryan
You can't actually sign up and pay for Spotify premium inside the iOS app, and
I believe Netflix and Amazon Prime Video fall into a different "streaming
video" category where they pay 15% instead of 30%, with some caveats: they
must support both Airplay and AppleTV (exposing their entire video catalogues
to Apple), and some other smaller things.

It's all silly and arbitrary, and video game creators have been understandably
upset for a long time.

------
grwthckrmstr
I would pay for a gaming smartphone (and peripherals) from Epic that uses a
fork of Android OS.

Would use it initially as the perfect portable gaming device, which alone is
enough to get Epic 100mns+ of distribution.

Epic can subsidise the cost of the smartphone as they would make money from
apps and games. They can set their example by taking 5-12% commission.

And after hitting Epic scale and by practicing the principles it preaches
Sweeney can show the world a better way.

~~~
fooey
Epic failed to even get people to sideload their Android store. People,
including Epic themselves, have way too high of an opinion of their sway.

~~~
manicdee
That's the joke.

------
CydeWeys
That's a lot of strong words over what amounts to nothing more than a contract
dispute.

~~~
divbzero
Do these words have specific legal meaning beyond their emotional
connotations?

(Note the HN title is editorialized as sibling comments point out.)

~~~
CydeWeys
"Unlawful" is a very broad term that could mean nothing more than "We had a
contract and we believe you violated that contract (which is unlawful) and we
therefore want civil restitution". The way it's phrased though it almost
sounds like they're accusing Epic of a _crime_ , which just isn't the case
here; it's nothing more than possibly breach of contract.

------
qzw
I think on some level Apple is happy to have this lawsuit at this time. The
App Store revenue has become more significant and also presents big
opportunities for growth. Especially with the arrival of ARM macs, the future
points to a world where the “Apple Tax” might be a literal 30% cut on all
transactions conducted through an Apple device. So for Apple it would be good
to get some legal clarity before they make such moves. Sure, it would be
painful if they lost, but it could be much more so later on. According to a
study cited by Apple, they took a cut on only $61B of the $519B of total sales
generated by the App Store. They’ve got to be salivating at that latter
figure. If they could get 30% of $500B+, it would be more than half of their
current annual revenue.

------
chrismsimpson
Meanwhile in other news, pot calls kettle black

~~~
DonaldPShimoda
Ah, no, because in that metaphor the kettle isn't black, but is shiny and
reflecting the pot's image back, which implies that Apple is the bad guy here
and Epic is not.

~~~
forrestthewoods
> which implies that Apple is the bad guy here and Epic is not

Correct.

------
throwawaynothx
"For years, Epic took advantage of everything the App Store had to offer. It
availed itself of the tools, technology, software, marketing opportunities,
and customer reach that Apple provided" \- I laughed quite hard at this one.

------
shmerl
Sounds like Apple are describing themselves?

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devwastaken
The pot calling the kettle black. Obviously epic did this all on purpose, but
that purpose is for good reason, to show that mobile software can no longer be
entirely controlled by singular entities with significant conflicts of
interest.

The natural market of mobile software is choked out by Apple and Google.
Theyre not accepting that the market they originally created has now gone
significantly further than what they can and should control. They impliment
anti competitive practices, removing apps that may compete with them, where
they can completely bankrupt multi million dollar companies based on good
mobile software.

Markets belong to everyone, praise be capitalism.

~~~
tasogare
30% commission, no alternative store(s), $99/year developer subscription, only
seven days side loading on person device if not paying the aforementioned
fees, Apple have for long stockpiled reasons for developers and hobbyists to
dislike how they treat developers. I’m siding 100% with Epic on this.

~~~
olliej
As opposed to all the other stores that ... charge 30% or so, but don’t host
free software as well?

Seriously, I need someone to explain what makes this any different from The
google store or consoles? I mean aside from consoles not supporting free (as
in price) software either

~~~
Gobd
On an Android phone I can just use F-Droid or install an apk I downloaded from
anywhere. That's not the case with an iPhone. Not sure about consoles.

------
sqreept
Porque cuando la tiranía es ley, la revolución es orden.

~~~
pmcollins
This is a quote from Puerto Rican attorney and politician Pedro Campos

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Albizu_Campos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Albizu_Campos)

~~~
AlexandrB
Geez. It's pretty tasteless to compare a political freedom movement to
opposing some restrictive terms of service. It's like putting a picture of
Thích Quảng Đức on your blog about why DRM is bad.

~~~
Tehdasi
Or doing an ad where you are a self insert into 1984 and your competitor is
big brother?

~~~
AlexandrB
I think that comparison is somewhat flawed. 1984 is a fictional novel, not a
real political movement or historical event. No real people were harmed by the
events in 1984.

------
ghastmaster
Epic is disingenuous. They could totally transform the mobile market by
investing in IOS alternatives. If you don't like what/how someone is doing
something, don't cry about it. Do it better.

This is simply a political gamble. They are hoping that the publicity gained
results in politicians opening up the app store to favor app creators (epic)
through regulation. It's a pathetic move.

~~~
m00x
You mean develop a new phone, mobile operating system and compete with the 2
largest companies in the US?

Why didn't they think of that? /s

~~~
ghastmaster
I understand. My point is that epic has a very high valuation. Their money is
of course focused on gaming, but they could branch into the mobile market.
When the iPhone came out Apple had, what 5% share of the desktop market and no
phones?

Yet they managed to dominate the mobile market. Nothing in this world is
static.

