
CEO of Mandriva says employee lawsuits put the company out of business - mahouse
http://www.businessinsider.com/ceo-employee-lawsuits-killed-mandriva-2015-5
======
jarofgreen
Odd article, only giving one side of the story. What exactly were the employee
law suits about? It doesn't say, and the effect is just to implicitly smear
France's worker laws. Because while some laws are rubbish and cause problems,
lets be clear, sometimes companies are shit, we have laws to protect workers
for a reason and lawsuits are very justified and deserve to win.

~~~
girvo
_> The details of the suits, including names of employees involved, are
confidential, he told us, and he declined to offer details_

That's in the article, but how true that is I don't know. You'd assume the
details would be public record somewhere, but I don't know enough about
France's laws to tell.

~~~
jarofgreen
Yes, that seems odd to me but then I don't know French law at all. Any french
commentators?

~~~
aout
French labour law is not what most people think, the employee does not have
the rights to stay forever in a company. Yes it over protects the employee by
restricting the power of the employer but both parties are still equals in
front of Justice.

How is that you might ask? Well, when you're suing your ex-company you go to a
special trial called "prud'hommes" (like "safety-men") which is constituted by
both employees and employers. You are judged by your peers. Prud'Hommes trials
are long and decisions are rarely contested by the public opinion in France,
even by employers. Employers can win at prud'hommes trials, they do when they
respect the law.

Also I'd like to point out that this is the 4th CEO change for Mandriva in
something like 8 years. At some point the choices that some of the CEOs made
were so bad that the investors forced them to publicly communicate with the
community (for Mandriva the Linux community in France is extremely strong so
it might be interesting to keep it updated and involved...). Basically the
last CEO seems to have made some hard but good choices for the company but is
paying for the mistakes of it's predecessors (so now he tries to save it's
reputation by telling his side of the story which is understandable). Anyway,
the company stays responsible when a bad CEO leaves and a new one comes along.

"C'est la vie".

~~~
tajen
French here. Often, pro-employees partisans are enclined to believe that
Prud'hommes are neutral. However I have never heard the same opinion from a
boss who's had experience with firing someone. By the way the name Prud'hommes
is a family name, and although it looks like "prudence", it has no ethymologic
origin here.

I'm frightened of hiring the first person in my startup, precisely because I
can't get rid of them and an upset employee can draw lifetime savings in
lawyer fees, penalties and fines. Therefore if you could convince me that
Prud'hommes and French employment rules can be fair and deterministic, and
make me meet bosses who reckon the Prudhommes took a fair position, you would
literally create at least one job.

Apart from that, you are right that some bosses aren't nice and we don't known
enough about Mandriva to judge.

~~~
aout
[http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conseil_de_prud%27hommes_%28Fra...](http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conseil_de_prud%27hommes_%28France%29)

You have 7 months to fire your employee without even giving a reason. That
seems fair enough to judge someone.

------
weddpros
In France, there's a high chance of trial if you lay someone off... A 25%
chance!
([http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licenciement_en_France#Statisti...](http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licenciement_en_France#Statistiques))

From what I've found on the Net, the laid off decided to take their case to
court, to ask for greater compensation from Mandriva.

(no authoritative source found, only excerpts from an interviews on
[http://linuxfr.org/users/kurun/journaux/duval-vs-mandriva-
in...](http://linuxfr.org/users/kurun/journaux/duval-vs-mandriva-inerview-de-
f-bancilhon))

~~~
adekok
I worked in France for a number of years. One case I saw personally was a
sales guy who didn't sell. He went on "trips" every week for 4 days to visit
his girlfriend. Then, expensed meals for both of them.

After 4 months of this, he was fired for cause. And sued. And won.

Some things in France are nice (pate de foie gras at the French senate).
Employment law isn't one of them.

~~~
Ved_
That's very cliché (no pun intended). I've seen companies in France firing
employees simply for making too many typos. Employee sued and company won.

~~~
tajen
That's probably incomplete. They were probably on probation, the initial
3-to-8 month period where the permanent employment contract can be revoked
without a reason (except if discrimination can be demonstated, once again).

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imrehg
What a strange thing to force the payout due to the lawsuit to commence right
away, and not after all the legal avenues were exhausted (appeals and such).
E.g. they were basically denied of appeal because of being forced into
bankruptcy...

I cannot imagine the feeling of the employees either: those who were fired are
the ones who walked away with money + take away everyone else's job.

I'm really conflicted about labour laws. On one hand, having gone through some
(IMHO) very unfair treatment at a previous job I'd like those laws to have
some effect. On the other hand, I don't think many current forms have
unintended, serious consequences, which favour the wrong people/wrong
outcomes... No wonder that I hear from entrepreneurs these days, that don't
hire people until really really positively absolutely have to.

~~~
MCRed
I've dealt with unfair employers as well... but labor laws don't really help
you. The cost of taking someone to court far exceeds the likely result if you
win the case... so the risk reward, even when you've really been wronged, is
bad.

This is why transparency (check glass door reviews, and post them!) is
important... so the market can work.

~~~
jarofgreen
Depends on the offense and country. UK has Small Claims Court, specially
designed for easy small claims. I know some ppl who got a succesful judgement
out of that when their employers didn't give them their last pay packet
fairly. (Tho it has to be said, Tory goverment is making access to justice
harder, mostly by changing the fee structure of who pays.)

Tho I do think a more transparent work culture would be very interesting
(especially in our industry where workers have a fair amount of choice), laws
do have their place. Many people in other industries find themselves in
positions where they know a employer is shit but they are desperate for a job
so apply anyway.

------
bjourne
If my neighbor sues me because of my action $X and wins, most people would
conclude that that I did $X was the problem. Not that the laws around $X are
to blame. I should have known the laws and should have known that $X is
punishable with hefty fines. If I went to the media, I should be laughed at
for blaming someone else because I wouldn't follow the laws.

If I drive I must accept and follow all traffic laws (even if I think some are
stupid and pointless) and if I do CEO:ing, I must follow the labor laws. If I
reject that, then I shouldn't drive or CEO.

~~~
sergiosgc
If France's laws are like Portugal's (which is typical), there's a flaw in
your argument.

It is _very_ expensive to fire people, even when it is entirely justified as a
measure to save the company. Companies routinely go under because of this
effect.

The response is, typically, that you should be prudent when hiring, and
allocate the firing cost so you can face dire straits and come out on the
other side. However, companies act in a market. Your competitors either don't
have the same laws or act imprudently. If you act too conservative, your
company fails.

A partial solution, for domestic competition leveling, is mandatory fund
provisioning, for worker compensation. It's not perfect, but it mitigates the
problem.

Worker protection, albeit necessary, is not free. It's not free for the
companies and it's not free for the society. This was an example of the price
to pay.

~~~
bjourne
Can you tell me what costs firing someone in Portugal incurs to a company?

I know roughly how it works in most Nordic countries (which have relatively
employee-friendly labor laws) and it's not very expensive. A small company
(Mandriva would be categorized as "small") can cite profitability problems
(not enough revenue to cover salary costs) and layoff how many employees they
want.

There is a strict protocol to follow, such that those with the lowest
seniority must be laid off first and then more senior personnel. The laid off
employers unions must be notified two weeks (I think) in advance so that they
can verify that the termination protocol is followed and protest if it isn't.

This step is crucial, if the company makes formal errors they will be forced
to pay several months extra in severance pay if the union is alerted. An
example of a formal error is delivering the termination message orally and not
in writing with a date and signatures.

Then there is a severance period of 1-3 months based on the age of the
employee. I think 1 month for < 35 years of age, 2 months for 35 - 45 and 3
months for > 45\. During that period the employee is supposed to continue
working for the employer but for various reasons often can't work 100%.

~~~
sergiosgc
> Can you tell me what costs firing someone in Portugal incurs to a company?

If you can get a legitimate reason for dismissal, two months pay per year of
past contract duration. Reasons for dismissal are quite limited, but in the
case of Mandriva they could use the legal figure of "labour force reduction".

Protocols are similar. You must fire lower seniority folks first, and you may
not hire anyone for that position for a year. Employee and unions must be
notified in advance.

If you there is no legitimate reason for dismissal, you'll need to reach an
agreement with the employee. Typically, it ends up as four months pay per past
year of contract.

The current government has softened these rules a lot, but they apply to new
contracts only or to the contract period after the law was approved (depending
on provisions for different parts of the new labour law).

~~~
bjourne
So are you saying that you have to pay someone 20 months of salaries if they
have worked 10 years to fire someone due to "labour force redution"? I looked
at this page and your stats doesn't seem right at all:
[http://www.ilo.org/dyn/eplex/termdisplay.severancePay?p_lang...](http://www.ilo.org/dyn/eplex/termdisplay.severancePay?p_lang=en&p_country=PT&p_all_years=Y)

------
sprash
No an inferior product put them out of business. The employee lawsuits were
just a symptom.

~~~
carlosrg
Exactly. Putting the blame on others is easy, but the reality is that Mandriva
couldn't compete with others like Canonical or Red Hat.

------
keithpeter
_" Mandriva offered a Linux operating system for PCs that was doing well in
some developing nations."_

Anyone know which developing nations? And why Mandriva was especially
appealing in those countries?

~~~
droithomme
There's been various articles over the years discussing their strategy. They
were targeting the third world market with customized distributions for
inexpensive educational computers, and focusing on making the installer easy
to use.

[http://www.olpcnews.com/software/operating_system/mandriva_c...](http://www.olpcnews.com/software/operating_system/mandriva_classmate_linux.html)

> Mandriva, a France-based Linux distributor, spent eight months customizing
> its operating system for the Classmate, and adapting education applications
> specially developed for Intel's World Ahead program. In addition, these
> Linux-based Classmates will be produced in Brazil, part of Intel's local
> laptop assembly manufacturing plan, for delivery to Brazil, Mexico, India,
> and other assorted developing countries.

[http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Nigeria-Puts-
Mandr...](http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Nigeria-Puts-Mandriva-
Back-on-Classmate-PCs)

> At least 11,000 Classmate PCs ordered by Nigeria will run Mandriva Linux,
> and not Windows, according to a government spokesperson. ... Mandriva will
> be deployed on at least 11,000 PCs destined for the Nigeria Universal
> Service Provision Fund (USPF), a government organization.

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122332198757908625](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122332198757908625)
(paywall) [http://my.ewb.ca/posts/13/46149](http://my.ewb.ca/posts/13/46149)
[https://handyfloss.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/my-opinion-on-
ma...](https://handyfloss.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/my-opinion-on-mandriva-vs-
microsoft/) (for non-SWJ subscribers, these two summarizes some of the WSJ
article's points.)

~~~
keithpeter
Thanks for posting. So subsidised project from Intel.

------
CrLf
The article tries to put the blame on the former employees, but the real moral
of this story is to follow the law when laying people off or suffer the
consequences.

~~~
Kiro
I don't agree. You have no idea how broken the French labor law is.

~~~
CrLf
I live in the EU. The French labor law is not much different from other EU
countries.

Also, the law exists for a reason. Putting the blame on employees in this case
is an ideologial opinion, not a fact.

------
raverbashing
And that's why you can expect less investment in some countries and more in
others.

But to be fair, this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, it was
not the main reason while Mandriva went under (which has been a long and drawn
process)

~~~
threeseed
Sure. And equally why you can expect more worker exploitation in some
countries and less in others.

~~~
raverbashing
Of course.

However, it's funny how worker migrations usually run opposite to that (from
more regulation to less regulation).

~~~
tluyben2
Only one case right? The US? You know of any others? And there are a lot of
reasons for that besides the regulations which might or might not be related.

~~~
raverbashing
"Only one case right? The US?"

The whole of EU pretty much. See which countries are losing and gaining people
(and which ones have the strongest regulations)

And before everyone mentions Germany, they're, ahem, peculiar. They have
strong protections in some aspects, in others they're pretty liberal (like
mini Jobs, and the fact they didn't have a minimum wage until last year)

Canadian migration to the US, also internal Canadian migrations

------
buster
I am wondering about the numbers and i bet those are exaggerated... Fired lots
of sales, but sales went up 40% and costs went down 60%?

