
New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton - ichilton
http://www.ichilton.co.uk/blog/apple/new-apple-macbook-pro-ram-is-soldered-to-the-motherboard-513.html
======
gouranga
Sorry but you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one to be honest if that
is the case.

Apple are making an attempt to turn generic computers into disposable
appliances with moves like these. I would never accept a compromise like that
with a computer that I owned.

My rationale is as follows: If I pay £1800 for one of those machines, I expect
to be able to repair common problems easily. That's a lot of money sitting in
one component waiting to fail and considering the warranty is a year (or 3 if
you are extorted for even more cash by Apple for their expensive AppleCare
service).

First it was the batteries - now no longer replaceable by mere mortals, then
the SSDs were brought in with proprietary interfaces, now the RAM is soldered
on the board.

In the average 5 year life span of a computer, I have found that you will need
to replace the battery between 1-2 times, the memory will need to be upgraded
at least once and the disk will need to be upgraded. These are observations
but rational ones.

I'm now sitting on a Lenovo T61 which is 5 years old. EVERY component in this
machine can be replaced for literally nothing and very rapidly.

Sorry but stuff like this is just pandering to consumerism if it is disposable
by design.

The design is retarded.

EDIT: It appears the battery is GLUED in so that's not replaceable any more
either, even with the aid of a screwdriver.

~~~
ctdonath
Making components replaceable increases volume, weight, and cost.

If you want replaceable components, go buy a computer for which that is a
feature - and know that you will get a machine which is larger, heavier, and
more expensive (all other factors being equal). Swapable components require
additional casing, connectors, testing, sales channels, etc. You're not going
to get a 3/4" 5-lb 7-hour 256GB-SSD 8GB-RAM MBA Retina for $2200 _and_ be able
to swap out darn near everything; something's gonna give.

Some of us DON'T want to replace components, having learned over the years
that by the time we're replacing components we'd rather replace the whole
computer outright. If I need more RAM, it's best matched with a new CPU. If I
need more storage, I'll need more RAM to throw around more data. When the
battery dies, all those other components are gettin' obsolete anyway. I also
know from experience that upgrading parts doesn't always go as planned, and
time wasted upgrading can very quickly add up to the cost of a new machine
outright. I'd rather have a notebook which is very thin, very light, very fast
- and just replace the whole package when the time comes as I see fit.

You're welcome to a different POV, and there is a market happy to serve our
different needs & desires.

However, just because we have a different POV doesn't make me a f __*ing
idiot.

~~~
super_mario
Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target
customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing. Sometimes your
processes are not CPU bound at all, sometimes they are I/O bound. Sometimes in
RAM caches can increase performance quite a bit etc. This means swapping HDD
and putting faster SSD is enough to speed certain things up. Also, updating
RAM only is enough to speed things up in certain other criteria.

Besides it is well understood in technical circles where Apple is headed. Make
no mistake. Their goal is to kill general purpose computers, and replace them
with appliances they control.

~~~
mironathetin
"Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target
customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing."

Yeah,... Astro-Physicist here. 90% of my colleagues use Macs and we write most
of the software that controls satellites and earth bound observatories on
Macs.

Just an old science, entertainment, with no real or useable results :o).

~~~
super_mario
Mathematician and software developer here (and the guy you are responding to)
and ALL my personal computers are Macs too. I criticize Apple's direction
because I sincerely do not think it is good for the future of general purpose
computing. The software you write for your scientific computing might become
"illegal" if Apple gets it their way, and you will first have to pay Apple a
cut before you can run it, or it may become plain impossible to program your
computer at all. How often do you run custom code on your other appliances?
Exactly. If computers become locked down appliances you won't be able to or
expected to run custom code on them either.

How many people expect to compile and run stuff on their iPad? None, but it's
a perfectly capable machine, more powerful than PCs of the 90s.

~~~
mironathetin
I agree with you completely. I don't like the direction of Apples development
either. But then, I know how much time a linux notebook consumes. I still did
not manage to play back my rsync'ed backup in a way that the machine boots.

That (and related stuff) is what I mean when I write ( a bit further down)
that there is no real operating system for a Thinkpad. Pity.

In a way, apple goes the same way that car manufacturers have gone already.
Try to get a BMW repaired in a non-BMW workshop. Impossible, because you need
BMW proprietary tools and Software. So BMW dictates the prices and they
dictate, what parts have to be replaced for a certain error.

My wife and I use subway and bicycles where ever we can, since Mercedes,
Porsche, Opel, Ford all try to do the same.

~~~
sokoloff
I know first-hand that Mercedes are quite user-serviceable, as I do most all
of the service (ex-tire replacement, ex-exhaust) on all our cars.

Factory basic service information is not only easily available, it's free (at
least in the US: they make you provide a US CC every 365 days for online
access, so it might be MB-USA funding it, but the card is not charged). Parts
are readily available aftermarket, from OE and non-OE suppliers. There's also
several well-respected third party shops within a few miles of here.

I don't drive a BMW, but I know of two excellent (but not cheap) third party
shops nearby.

Yes, some systems are computer-augmented for service, and require a beyond-
OBD2 level of software, but that software is available (and a couple thousand
dollars, a lot for an individual, but nothing compared to the rest of the
tools a shop has to have).

I am quite happy with the supportability MB provides, and probably wouldn't
drive one if your statement above matched my experience.

Side note: it's a pleasure to work on MB: very few "one time" fasteners (like
those plastic Christmas tree push things, or ridiculously fragile/undersized
plastic latches). Thing that you need to take apart are designed to be taken
apart and put back together many times without damage or leaving ill-fitting
parts afterward. You really notice the difference when servicing someone
else's other brand, price-optimized car.

~~~
mironathetin
Good for you that you can do it yourself. We don't have the time to do that
and we rely on good workshops. Here in germany non-contract workshops cannot
get access to the necessary tools and software. They could hack it, but thats
against the law! Most mechanics also lack the abilities to handle analysis
software.

As a bottom line, workshops that can service cars with new production date
vanish.

What you say is indeed the solution that came into my mind: buy a cool
oldtimer (I especially like the Porsche 911 from the late 70s/early 80s) and
buy a new house with a large garage. Tools are available already.

------
bobbywilson0
[http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-
Displ...](http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Display-
Teardown/9462/1#.T9irVCtYveM)

\- MacBook Pro with Retina Display 15" Mid 2012 Repairability Score: 1 out of
10 (10 is easiest to repair).

\- Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything
inside.

\- As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at
16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade.

\- The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but
not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re
hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future.

\- The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case,
which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery
also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that
the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process.

\- The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting
it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the
entire extremely expensive assembly.

EDITED: got rid of scroll per comment below

~~~
okamiueru
The no scroll edition:

* MacBook Pro with Retina Display 15" Mid 2012 Repairability Score: 1 out of 10 (10 is easiest to repair).

* Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside.

* As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade.

* The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future.

* The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process.

* The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly.

~~~
bobbywilson0
Thanks. I was trying to make it look as though it was quoted but looks like I
failed.

~~~
okamiueru
You did the work :) No need to thank me. I had to copy paste to read it
anyways.

------
revelation
People are worried about DRAM soldered to the motherboard?

I'd be much more worried about the Flash that is, just as the RAM, also
permanently soldered to the motherboard. With the wear-leveling most chipsets
do nowadays, these things will just simultaneously drop dead in three years.

edit: Took another look: <http://imgur.com/x0I9x> It seems that they might
indeed be exchangeable. Looked a lot like they were soldered on with the rest
on a first glance.

~~~
socialist_coder
The flash ssd is not soldered in from what I can tell. It's probably like the
MBA where it has some kind of connector and is probably the only user
serviceable part.

~~~
huxley
It's definitely not soldered in.

OWC says that it is similar but probably not exactly the same as the one in
the Macbook Air, they are looking at providing an upgrade model like they do
for the Airs:

[http://blog.macsales.com/14090-not-a-lot-of-options-for-
macb...](http://blog.macsales.com/14090-not-a-lot-of-options-for-macbook-pro-
w-retina-display)

------
nicksergeant
How is this news? I think it's well known that the new Retina-MBPs have made
some hardware-upgradeability sacrifices in exchange for portability.

~~~
uzero
My thoughts exactly. But I do think that if I would put over $2000 to a laptop
I wouldn't like the fact that I'm not able to upgrade memory after few years.
It's ok with devices like iPad but $2000 laptop is a device that you expect to
use a bit longer.

~~~
culturestate
You can max it out with 16GB of RAM for an additional $200. I'm not sure I can
see myself putting more than that into a laptop during its useful life.

~~~
uzero
Yes I know but that wasn't the point. The point is that if I now buy the
laptop with let's say 8GB because I think I don't need more than that because
all I do is code. After 6 months I get assigned to doing work with BIG
databases that easily eat 10GB memory. Now I'm stuck with 8GB because it's
soldered and even Apple can't upgrade it.

~~~
sneak
Upgrading the RAM on a new Macbook Pro is a user-serviceable operation. It
consists of four steps:

1) Back up data, wipe drive

2) Sell MBP on eBay

3) Buy new MBP with desired amount of RAM

4) Restore data

Now stop it. You're buying a Mac because you don't like to waste time dicking
around with your computer, remember?

~~~
orangecat
_You're buying a Mac because you don't like to waste time dicking around with
your computer, remember?_

And I do like to waste time dealing with backups and Craigslist scammers? I'm
buying a Mac because I want a Unix workstation with a solid UI. Lots of
MacBook _Pro_ owners are not terrified of screwdrivers.

~~~
sneak
> And I do like to waste time dealing with backups

Ha. Best of luck, friend.

------
rangibaby
The mechanism Apple uses to allow user-replaceable RAM looks like it won't fit
in the new case. (pic) [1]

Apple have a habit of charging fairly outrageous prices for extra RAM -
$375[2] for 16GB in the current Mac Pro, and that's not even for 8GB sticks.
With that in mind, $200 for the upgrade to 16GB is not _that_ bad, which is
probably on purpose.

[1] <https://support.apple.com/kb/HT1270#link1> [2]
<http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MD770LL/A>

~~~
dhimes
It has a funny psychological effect on me that I don't understand: when I see
a premium, top-of-the-line (for whatever line you are interested in) machine,
and they charge a little more to get it to the extra level (16 MB RAM), I feel
like it cheapens the product. It kind of makes me think of it as second-rate.
I get a similar feeling when looking at a luxury car for which a stylish
interior is an upgrade. I feel like an awesome car wouldn't be sold _without_
the stylish interior, therefore this car is less-than-awesome.

~~~
blablabla123
It's a matter of budget. When you think a 8 GB RAM Macbook Pro is cheap, maybe
you should shop at sgi.com.

~~~
dhimes
I understand the part about the budget. I don't understand the part about the
psychological effect. I don't even know what to call it. I find it curious.

~~~
blablabla123
In my experience 1 in 4 upgrades are crap. Thinking back 10 or more years ago
when I stuffed my PC with expansion cards. Sometimes these cards did not work,
particular candidates were Modems and TV cards. Actually even half of my RAM
upgrades were adventures, sometimes I had to remove all of the RAM and put it
back in. (WTF?)

So this would be one explanation which I do experience. When I buy a Gadget
and the cool stuff is hard-wired, this means to me: this Gadget is merged with
the cool stuff.

------
jurre
I kind of expected this as the Airs have the same, can anyone that knows a bit
more about hardware maybe tell if this is because of space concerns?

~~~
joelhaasnoot
RAM slots are big pieces of plastic and connector pins. Especially if you have
two slots it just wouldn't fit in a laptop with that height.

~~~
keeperofdakeys
The original Samsung Series 9 is about 10% thinner and had two DIMM slots; the
battery did take up a bit less space though. I'm sure it would have been
possible to fit two SODIMM slots, it would just have cost more in terms of
design and sale price.

------
dordoka
Not only RAM, SSD is SATA III, but using a different form factor and a
proprietary connector, a la Macbook Air. The new Air also changed the already
proprietary connector from the 2011 models, rendering unusable the existing
third party SSD upgrade options. Wondering if MacbookPro SSD connector are the
same as the new Air's or not...

~~~
cbsmith
I'm still kind of scratching my head about the use of SATA given these custom
connectors. It keeps driver development simple, but at a cost in performance.

~~~
Xylakant
Well, not only driver development but also controller development. SATA is a
standard where you can go buy the standard components. The connector probably
has the same data lanes as a SATA connector, just a different form factor.
Most of the space saving come from not having an enclosure like harddrives do
- something which only words with SSDs since they have no moving parts and are
thus dust-resistant.

~~~
dordoka
Yep, AnandTech did a review analyzing the SSD connector from the Air. Check it
out: [http://www.anandtech.com/show/5854/asus-zenbook-ssd-and-
appl...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/5854/asus-zenbook-ssd-and-apples-
macbook-air-ssd-are-not-compatible)

~~~
Xylakant
Thanks, that pretty much confirms what I've been writing. Same data lines,
different connector layout. The comparison makes for an interesting read.

------
trebor
Well, I won't buy a system that isn't upgradeable. Developers have needs that
scale faster than a consumer, and if I can't upgrade my RAM ... forget it.

Though with 8GB RAM and an SSD, the CPU has suddenly become my slow-point.

------
bradleyland
I saw the DRAM chips in the WWDC keynote video and my first thought was, "Oh
boy, the hackers are going to have an aneurism when they see this." I don't
find it all that surprising.

Apple has been slowly migrating all of their devices in the direction of
appliances. The mass market doesn't upgrade the device, they replace it. That
is where Apple is headed: the mass market.

It's hard to argue that they're wrong when they're selling so many units as
everyone else is in decline.

------
kristopher
Good info and glad that I have not ordered yet! At the time I was thinking of
buying the base model and upgrading the RAM after the fact.

------
masklinn
> It stands to reason, when they do similar on the iOS products – the iPhone,
> iPad and iPod’s all have fixed storage and no way of using SD card’s, USB
> stick’s or change the battery like on competitors products, but RAM has
> always been upgradable.

It's also soldered on the Air, unsurprising that they'd do the same on a
small-factor MBP.

------
novalis
If this is the case, that is the same reason why I never bought HP machines
since opening one up in the 90's and seeing how someone had soldered the ram
to the motherboard. That server test machine went back and I never bought
anything from them, and now that short list has one more brand in it.

------
nicholassmith
Here's my plan for the future:

\- I gave up non-Mac machines as I had no interest in replacing components and
fiddling with hardware, so it being non-replaceable is fine for me. Sell it on
eBay as spares/repairs, someone will be able to fix it. \- Continue using the
most 'general computing' laptops Apple make, which for me is the MBA. It
handles all the general dev work I need to do. \- Have a couple of cheap VPS'
that have more computing capacity than I need on a general basis handy.
Offsite the work there.

I'm happy buying one because the way of the future is going to be almost the
way of the past in my eyes. Sweet workstations that can handle the bulk of my
daily digital needs, and big heavy stuff I can connect to happily that I don't
need to do anything beyond pressing the shiny 'upgrade' button when I need to.

------
neilwillgettoit
The #1 reason I'm completely okay with the RAM being soldered to the mobo: NO
CHANCE FOR A COLD BOOT ATTACK.

------
codgercoder
Apple would make you buy a new machine just to install a new application, if
they could. I have confidence they will figure it out, in due time. There is,
after all, tremendous pressure to maintain their revenue.

~~~
powrtoch
I would say iOS already works like this. They push out OS updates to devices
not capable of running them properly, and provide no easy path to roll back.
Many non-technical users will just think their "old" phone has "gotten slow",
as if that's the inevitable course that products take as they age. So they buy
a new device.

The App Store only makes this worse, since at any given time you can only
download the most recent version of any app. So if you don't upgrade iOS, you
find yourself increasingly unable to install any new apps.

And all in all it seems very successful. There have only been 5 iterations of
the iPhone over about 5 years, but how many people do you know that owned at
least 3 of them?

~~~
stevejabs
I think your logic here is very flawed.

I can name a ton of people who've owned only 1 or 2 iPhones since they've
released. However that isn't even what I'm arguing about.

Apple makes (in my opinion) a very smart decision to limit some features to
only newer phones. Think about when iOS4 came out, it was only fully supported
for the iPhone 4 and 3GS. Backgrounding on the 3G was a nightmare to memory
and performance... so they cut it. You're saying they automatically lump in
apps that make the device seem slow? I think they do the exact opposite. They
make smart decisions to keep even 2 year old devices running like their brand
new.

Of course they want you to update to a new device every two years (every
single manufacturer does, don't just blame Apple here) but they are the only
company I've seen that doesn't hold a gun to your head to upgrade just to get
a new OS.

One thing I can always depend on with my iPhone, I'll likely see at least 3
major OS upgrades during my ownership. My Android phone (I own both) has only
seen 1 major OS upgrade and very very very few incremental upgrades as well.
The only reason why I have ICS on it is because of CyanogenMod.

~~~
AlisdairO
I suspect that that he's talking more about the update to the 3G that rendered
the phone almost unusably slow for a substantial proportion of users.
Unfortunately they never did bother to fix it.

~~~
masklinn
> Unfortunately they never did bother to fix it.

As a former owner of a 3G, they did (attempt) with iOS 4.2.1, which
significantly improved the situation over the absolutely dreadful 4.0 and 4.1
series. It wasn't back to 3.2 levels by any means (there's only so much you
can do when the phone had barely 30MB of RAM headroom when released — and yes,
I think AAPL are stingy fuckers on their RAM, the original iPad looks like it
has the exact same issue with iOS 6) but it did make the phone work again.

~~~
AlisdairO
Yeah, I probably overstated my case - I think some people did find their
situation rather improved. My wife's 3G never got any better, unfortunately
:-/.

What really annoyed me with the situation was that they didn't release a good
way (afaik) to downgrade your OS back if you didn't have a good backup. I
expect that from a commodity manufacturer, but given Apple's premium
reputation I tend to expect a quality response when they screw up.

That said, I still buy their stuff, so maybe that's why they don't care ;)

------
pasbesoin
"Right" or "wrong", Apple has been and is in the course of accruing all
marginal expenses to its bottom line.

Now, if you want "maxed storage", you'd better buy it at the time of purchase
of the unit, from Apple, at Apple's price.

You may agree or disagree; regardless, one should remain cognizant of the fact
and how it contributes to Apple's monolithic presence within its segment of
the market.

P.S. This is not to discount the relevance of design decisions that limit
physical accessibility: Slimness, edge-to-edge glass, etc., etc.

------
54mf
These days, I purchase laptops with a life expectancy of around 2-3 years. By
then, the tech will have advanced to far that I'll want a new one anyway, and
prices are dropping to the point where I can justify spending $1000-1500 on a
device I use 10 hours or more a day, and for my primary source of income.

These days, if I wanted more RAM, I'd just buy a new machine.

~~~
briguyd
The new Macbook isn't $1000-1500, its $2200+.

>These days, if I wanted more RAM, I'd just buy a new machine.

Seems like a waste of money for something that's an easy $100 upgrade on
pretty much every other computer in use today.

------
jakeonthemove
Come to think of it, soldering RAM isn't that hard - people were doing it with
a cheap soldering station over a decade ago (increasing RAM on video cards).
Seeing as this is the only design used in new Ultrabooks and will probably be
prevalent in new laptops, those who want to upgrade will have to upgrade their
tech skills.

------
Void_
Now you have to pay $350 extra for AppleCare unless you're the luckiest person
in the world.

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
I have gotten same day turn around for a trackpad problem on my current MBP. I
know others that have gotten similarly good service for their own devices.

Have you ever tried to claim the warranty from other companies? If you rely
heavily on a piece of equipment, $350 for really good support is a bargain.

------
beej71
If you look at the downside and upside for Apple, the decision makes perfect
sense. And 8 GB should be OK for almost all their users for the next year or
two.

------
newman314
Anyone know if the storage is similarly locked down? I.e. if I need to pick
the larger SSD at time of purchase?

~~~
Xylakant
Sort of. The SSD is a custom board with a custom connector but it uses
standard SSD components, pretty much the same as the AIR does. There are
currently no third-party modules available but for the Air it didn't take long
for some Vendors to sell some.

------
darylteo
I wouldn't have minded if it didn't cost $240 bucks just to upgrade the ram...

------
tibbon
Time to test my soldering skills...

------
its_so_on
The real news is that they could shave as much of the macbook off as they
actually did. Did you see the video? The screen display is now 'attached
directly' to the unibody with no 'glass layer'. What does that even mean?
Whatever it means, it's obviously not user-serviceable.

I was amazed at how much they got off the macbook in size and weight - EDIT:
everywhere, off the whole machine - and they're idiots for not putting this
right next to the "retina display" in the tagline announcing it -- e.g. at
www.apple.com now -- The headlines (here and elsewhere) didn't even emphasize
the new sleek lightweight form factor.

This shows Apple doesn't currently remember what Apple is. Apple makes, and
should make, a big deal out of even a marginal reduction in weight or
thickness. What _this_ is is a miracle.

we've just seen a miracle of engineering and Apple doesn't even think it worth
mentioning on the front page. idiocy.

~~~
elderberry
Does the thinness of your computer really matter?

~~~
ImprovedSilence
To some people. I have an Air. I love it. It's small, It's light, It can fit
anywhere. It takes up about as much room as a folder in my backpack, which is
awesome for air travel, the more I can get in my carry ons, the less I'm
paying for baggage.

------
rsanchez1
Great, now you can't even upgrade the RAM in Macbooks.

