
Those of you making more than $150k programming for a living: how? - derefr
My impression is that most of the software engineering jobs visible &quot;on the market&quot; right now pay in the range of $100-150k in the US, and amounts roughly commensurate to that elsewhere.<p>I don&#x27;t personally know anyone who makes more (or I don&#x27;t know I know them; people are fairly private about their pay), but I do know that such people exist, and a lot of them are probably on HN.<p>I think most people accepting &quot;market rates&quot; are curious what it takes to go beyond. So, here&#x27;s a poll.<p>For those of you who have a (non-founder, non-managerial) job in tech, making more than $150k <i>just in pure base-pay</i>:<p>1. How much do you make now?<p>2. What first pushed you into this bracket? Taking a job in a particular niche? Good negotiation when you were being hired? A raise? Threatening to quit? Something else?<p>3. what&#x27;s your take-home pay where you live? What is it after  cost-of-living (rent+travel to work+groceries) deductions?<p>4. What is your nominal job title? Is that what you <i>actually</i> do all day?<p>And a last optional set, if you&#x27;re not scared of inviting competition:<p>5. What is the industry&#x2F;vertical&#x2F;niche you&#x27;re employed in? Or your specific employer, if you dare.<p>5a. How meritocratic is your niche? Are all your highly-paid coworkers highly-skilled as well, or is there no correlation?<p>5b. How long would it take a good programmer without previous exposure to your niche to learn what they need to know to get hired to do your job at your level?
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zer00eyz
I think your spot on with the pay range for what is "visible", but that isn't
the real range.

Your 2nd question has all the answers you need.

* Specialize in something, or a few closely related things. Remember that %25 of a job is the actual coding, the rest is understanding the domain your in. It is fairly easy to master something like Magento, but it will take you longer to master ecom as a whole. If you have done a few deep interrogations with payment providers, shipping (picking and packing as well as the actual shippers like ups/usps/fed ex) and most importantly accounting are the tangible skills that will let you move out side the advertised range.

* once your IN a company its hard to break out of meager cost of living increases. If you have maxed out what they are willing to give you then you need to get a new job, and that will let you push higher. If your looking and you don't NEED the job you have a strong negotiating position. Be clear, from the beginning that your making XXX dollars and what you will need from the start.

I know plenty of engineers who make more than your max, but they know the
domain as well as the engineering and can speak to both as they have a high
level of understanding.

~~~
derefr
Oh, I know what all the advice is in the abstract. I want anecdotes, to see
whether the advice people give actually matches up with the statistical
reality.

For example, large raises might happen more often than people think. If the
people who _do_ get raises never talk about them, for fear of their coworkers
finding out about the widened pay-gap, then it would _seem_ like nobody gets
big raises.

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d4rkph1b3r
1\. ~175k is base + bonus, not including retirement stuff.

2\. Combination of experience, keeping up to date on new technologies, having
a good understanding of both high level functional programming techniques and
low level performance.

3\. I haven't really figured it out. My cost of living is probably 5k a month
but can swing wildly depending on if I take vacations, go out to eat more
often, etc. I seem to save plenty though.

4\. SE

5\. Big Company

5a. Very, except you have to be somewhat pleasant to be around. Not social or
gregarious necessarily, just not a jerk from what I've seen. Most people get
very turned off from this. I was surprised to see how different interviews
seem to go for candidates of similar technical merit but different
personalities.

5b. Depends on their aptitude, how much free time they have? A few months to a
couple years?

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throwaway_23453
1\. ~170k (salary) + bonus + options and benefits (100% medical, 401k match)

2\. Hired at this salary. Current company doesn't negotiate salary

3\. In the US. I track every dollar spent -- it was about 75k (after taxes) in
2015. Rent is $1975/month. Groceries for 2 is about 100/week. I am remote (no
travel)

4\. No titles. I spend almost all of my time programming.

5\. I am at a b2b saas startup. 1 round of VC, about 4 years old.

5a. Salary is determined by an objective formula -- everyone is assumed to be
very skilled. Unskilled workers are asked to leave.

5b. The objective formula is highly correlative to years of experience -- I am
in my 40's.

------
insoluble
Official App Developer wage statistics, including both mean and percentile, in
the US (for 2014) can be found here:
[http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm](http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm)

For generic Programmers, see here:
[http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151131.htm](http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151131.htm)

TL;DR: Programmers = ($44k to $128k); App Devs = ($56k to $149k);

PS: Sorry about not answering the actual question, but I thought this would
provide some background to the discussion.

------
burner314159
My base pay is currently $200K. This is not the highest base pay I know of. A
friend just started at a certain company at a base of $225K.

I'm pretty senior (I'm about 50 years old). I've been doing this for ... a
long time. In fact in some ways I think I'm underpaid (but there are other
benefits, like stock, which help a lot). I'm very, very good at what I do. Why
do I think I'm underpaid? Because products that I make bring in millions of
dollars a year. Yeah, I know it doesn't quite work that way, but we devs
control the means of production therefore we ought to share highly in the
benefits. A topic for another time.

I live in the SF Bay Area; take home after 401k, taxes, health insurance, and
other misc deductions runs around $9K/month. I put as much as possible into
401k, which I advise everyone reading this to do. I own a home, purchased a
decade ago, which costs me maybe $3K a month (it's hard to estimate exactly
because mortgage interest is tax deductible to an extent).

My title is something like Senior Software Engineer (but titles don't matter
very much). I do mobile apps. I used to do desktop apps and server stuff but
about 6 years ago, mobile seemed like a very big growth market, and I was
right. Right now I work for one of the big companies, but I've gotten this pay
rate or close to it at startups. There's the funny thing about startups --
they need you, but they don't want to pay what you're worth so they offer
stock, but the stock is usually worthless, and then at the end of the day they
really need you. So it's really about knowing yourself and your worth. In my
experience, sites like glassdoor do not have accurate salary information for
the top end. They are probably ok for average jobs, but at my level, they are
completely off. The way you'll get the right info is by making friends with
people like me and buying us a few beers... and on sites like this.

How long would it take to learn ... well, depends where you start. I'll assume
nothing about you. Knowing all the fundamentals is really, really important --
data structures, algorithms, and at least a couple languages. I went to a top
10 university, but you could learn all of that stuff with a few books and some
study.

Then pick some specialization. I happen to know a lot about graphics, I've
done lots of UI, and so I focus on front-end stuff, and so I do mobile which
is pretty specialized and very hot now. But there are plenty of other in-
demand specializations that can serve you very well, so I'd advise picking
something you enjoy, because you'll be doing it a lot. I learned mobile stacks
by reading a lot (and it's all free, on the internet!), doing my own projects
on the side, and once I knew enough, getting other people to pay me to learn
more.

Then it'll take you anywhere from 1-10 years to practice that specialization
enough to master it. Now, in programming, mastery doesn't necessarily mean
what it does in say kung-fu. It means knowing enough of an API, and the
available tools, to be really productive. It also means being able to
prioritize work (e.g. use top down design) in order to deliver on time and
with high quality/low defect rate.

If you were smart, learned fast, and didn't mess around too much, you could
learn everything I know in a couple of years. If you did I'd be insanely
jealous, but not really, I'd actually be very impressed and respectful, and I
would want to hire you.

I am not scared of competition. I've worked with many really, really amazing
and smart people over the years, and there is plenty of work out there. My own
company is hiring, I know lots of companies are too, and it's a great time to
be alive.

~~~
djangofightr
Thanks for sharing about you. You said you are about 50 years old. Do you not
worry about ageism in Bay area ? I just turned 30 ( 4 months back ) and I feel
that at some point people start seeing you differently.

Have you ever had chance to move into management role ? Did you accept ? If
not, may I ask why ?

I am trying desperately to move into management role but my current company is
very large and there is not much opportunity.

Any advice you could provide for this fellow developer on how do you see 25
yrs old making similar or at sometimes more than you ? How do you get younger
( or most ) people respect you ? What is your reaction when someone act like
they know all world?

Thank you.

~~~
codeonfire
> Have you ever had chance to move into management role ? Did you accept ? If
> not, may I ask why ?

I can answer that one. The answer is no for me. Many people don't know what
management is. It is trying to get people to do what you want through any
means at your disposal. It can be disreputable. It can involve lying to a lot
of people. It can involve being exposed to crime or at least criminals. Even
if you work at an above board company you have to deal with people that have
all kinds of issues: alcoholism, drug use, bipolar disorder, violent
tendencies, harassment. You have to fire people and try to get other people's
people fired. Changing jobs is difficult and risky. Recruiters don't call you.
You have to "know a guy" on your same ethical wavelength if you want a job.
Worst of all developers probably are going to make more than you in terms of
cash. Maybe you make it some day to an executive job, but not likely. You lose
all the technical abilities you once had. You have no choice but to work for
the company you probably hate, and to listen to your exec bosses yell at you
'fuck this' and 'fuck that' all day.

None of that has anything to do with creating new technology.

~~~
burner314151
At a large enough company, there is an HR department, which provides all sorts
of tools to help manage the issues you mention... and anyone displaying those
behaviors really should be fired, because it makes the workplace unsafe for
everyone else.

BTW, the best way to make it quickly to manager or executive fast is to go to
a startup.

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enitalp
I'm not in US but Canada.(twitter @enitalp) I'm at around 110k Can without
Bonuses. Working in video game industry as a Technical Architect with 20 years
relevant in video game and add more than 10 elsewhere. I have the best job in
the world. not ready to exchange for an IT bank job even for 300k.

~~~
zippy786
Could you elaborate why you wouldn't take a 3x more pay and could still
program, do whatever you like in your free time. I'm at a stage of life where
I'm trying to identify "nay" sayers and "yay" sayers who would go to extreme
and forge logic to either say "nay" or "yay". I just thought your answer was a
bit borderline there from my perspective.

~~~
rabidonrails
"You can spend all your time making money, or you can spend all your love
making time."

Because money can be a means to an end but surely isn't an end in itself. If
you don't _need_ the money and you aren't passionate about doing something
there's little reason to make yourself unhappy working to get it.

------
manyxcxi
1\. My wage is different now that I run my own companies, but the most I ever
made as a developer or architect was well over $150k.

2\. What pushed me there was a combination of things:

\- I am really good at software development and architecture

\- I'm a big picture kind of person, so I've always understood the value
propositions with software/tech to solve problems. Not everything is always
code in the real world.

\- I'm generally pretty fun to be around. And I think this might be the most
important. I'm (generally) not an asshole, nor am I an agreeable wallflower
that isn't noticed. People know when I'm in a meeting, I've got valuable
input, I also shut my mouth and listen. Putting your head down and toiling
away silently will not get you anywhere in the big picture.

3\. I live in a Seattle suburb. Houses around here are approx $500-750k, no
income tax, you can rent a 3,000 sqft house for about $1,900/mo, property
taxes are pretty high. Sales tax is like 12-15% but on a a grocery bill of
$100 I'll rarely have more than $2-$3 in taxes. So I would keep a pretty big
portion of my paycheck if it weren't for two kids and a third on the way.

4\. The most I ever made was as a Senior Software Engineer at a consulting
company as we got paid like lawyers (by the hour and profit sharing). The
highest non-management title I ever had was Software Architect- which also
paid north of $150k.

5\. I've spent nearly my entire career in consulting, professional services,
or agencies. Meaning in my career I was primarily a gun for hire and billed
out at big rates for everything from SAP implementations to The Gates
Foundation website for various companies (and on my own).

5a. I think consulting and professional services are more about who likes you
that determine the types of work you get, agency life is all fire drills all
the time, so if you survive you're probably pretty good under pressure (maybe
not the cleanest developer though). Everywhere I've been, everyone knew the
standouts and the not so great devs, but I know for fact the pay of some of
the standouts (especially young ones) was less than a fair number of the not
so good devs. I don't think perceived skill correlates with salary nearly as
much as negotiating tactics and confidence do.

5b. My niche has been problem solving. Most of the last six years has been web
development, and the last three have really been about scalability- but my
entire career has been listening to the customer talk and building something
they're happy with.

I now run my own software consulting company, among other things, but I can
say this about how I got my money working for other people: I had the
confidence I was good enough to get the job done and I'd ask for as much money
as possible coming in. I'd negotiate the shit out my entrance to the company.
The worst they can say is no, we can't offer you that much. They won't take an
offer off the table if they want you.

I graduated college to a $55k/year job. I was at $105k 28 months and two jobs
later. You don't owe a company anything other than your best effort every day.
If you see a better opportunity, take it. Don't be an asshole, try your best,
get over your fuck ups quickly, and be honest. You'll rarely burn a bridge,
people will respect you, and the money will come only if you're open to new
opportunities.

~~~
evgg
Regarding your point about being "generally pretty fun to be around", does it
come naturally or has it been a conscious effort? I'm still in college and
have been slowly realizing the deep importance of this quality (or maybe
skill?). Having met quite a few people who are, as you described, generally
fun to be around, I also realized that unfortunately I'm not one of those
people. Do you have any advice on getting better at that?

~~~
manyxcxi
I'm definitely outgoing- I have no problem making myself the butt of a joke to
get the laugh, but at the same time I'm not so outgoing that I'm one of those
guys who could go on a trip by himself and make five new best friends. Nor
would I just go to an event and meet like 10 people and go to dinner with them
that night.

I'd consider myself normal outgoing and I think, at least in a work
environment, it is my self confidence that alows this. I know my input won't
always be right, but it will be way more often than not- even then it will
probably still have value. So I throw out my ideas in meetings where it's
appropriate. I iterate on others ideas with them, that type of thing.

I would ask those around me what they thought of an approach- not because I
was worried mine was wrong, because maybe they'd have a fresh take and could
help tweak it for the better. This warms them up to collaborate. They will
likely start doing the same to you, then you'll both come to a mutual respect
for where each other's strengths and weaknesses may lie, but you've formed a
bond of comraderie that should keep you well regarded. It's important that
most of the time when you're asking for input that you've got the problem
nearly licked- no one wants to work with the guy always asking how to do his
job.

Those are the main ways I've built strong relationships in the office. I say
hi to people as I pass buy, grab the odd coffee with whoever, and chat about
sports (I happen to root for all of the rival teams up here, so that breeds a
lot of conversation).

That's it- my secret is that I just behave like an okay guy most of the time
and I don't stay silent and keep my eyes to the floor.

