
Ask HN: Apple shutted down our 30k/mo business. What now? - fairplayer
I &amp; my partner launched an app a year ago. It took half a year to build something sustainable and month ago we finally reached 30k &#x2F; mo profit. Yesterday after technical release (just to change title in the AppStore) the app got rejected. We didn&#x27;t violate any concrete guideline, Apple Review Team just decided that we use VPN in an anapproved manner. We use VPN to analyze traffic and show reports to the user. Of course users are uknowledge and ok with this solution. Needless to say that that dozens of our competitors use exactly this solution but apparently it’s not enough for Review Team.<p>Now I&#x27;m lost and don’t know what to do. Situation seems unfair. How come that developers give away half of their earnings to the monopolist platform and are still treated like kids. I mean, people will lose jobs and funds just because of &quot;unapproved way&quot; of using public (!) API. Honestly I liked this platform and I invested a lot into it but I&#x27;m sure I will stay away now.<p>Any thoughts or advices?
======
erickj
"How come that developers give away half of their earnings to the monopolist
platform and are still treated like kids"

I don't mean to troll, but the answer to that question lines in the
uncomfortable economic reality. Apple did the hardwork to centralize a massive
user base on their vertically integrated devices and protocols. And you the
developer has chosen to buy into that closed door, centralized, ecosystem for
easier profits and access to their users.

Don't like it? Help the world move towards a free and open model.

~~~
seba_dos1
Exactly. Don't use Apple hardware, don't write for Apple hardware. There are
plenty of mobile platforms that need some care, help them become relevant
instead of giving yourself into the hands of a walled garden owner.

~~~
simonh
But the walled garden is nicely maintained with neatly trimmed lawns,
beautiful flowers, cool rippling ponds and shady trees. While over the wall is
all rocky scrub land, with no benches, muddy paths and the occasional smelly
dumpster fire.

~~~
m-p-3

      But the walled garden is nicely maintained with neatly trimmed lawns, beautiful flowers, cool rippling ponds and shady trees
    

You forgot the landmines and the iOS police watching your every steps, kicking
you out of the garden without much recourse if you feel it was unwarranted.

~~~
simonh
They do that to the vendors at the stalls they licence to sell refreshments,
if they break the rules of their license, not to the public enjoying the
garden.

~~~
seba_dos1
And as a visitor, I can't even bring my own refreshments in, for instance when
I want to reduce waste. Not speaking about invalidating my lifetime ticket if
my child tells something wrong to the gatekeeper. Thanks, but no thanks.

------
napoleoncomplex
Did you have a conversation with your reviewer, or are you just citing what
the App Store rejection was?

You can both appeal the reviewer's decision and have a conversation with the
reviewer, and if that doesn't work, you appeal to apple's app review board.

In the few times we've experienced rejection, the review board was the most
useful option, and always approved us in the end.

Few points to expect:

\- it was not uncommon to get cited completely different "violations" as you
go through various appeals

\- "other apps do it" doesn't get you far

\- process can take a while but perhaps we made a mistake of not going
directly to the Apple app review board and stating our case there. We got
approved in a few days after that.

~~~
fairplayer
Hello, thanks for sharing. We tried to talk with our reviewer (phone and
resolution center) but he insists, that VPN is not intended for such use case.
In my opinion it depends on the viewpoint. Reviewer's view is that we use VPN
for functionality not related to VPN. Our view is that we _are_ VPN that
provides extended functionality.

~~~
napoleoncomplex
Yeah, skip the reviewer, they cite the rules endlessly, even if the rule they
are citing has no connection to the actual problem (in your case it does, but
still). App Review Board, send in your plea, that's that.

------
csomar
I think you are hiding something. Are you selling user browsing history? And
don’t tell me user acknowledged it. They never read your terms of service. I’m
sure if they knew, most of them will freak out.

Also your competitors might be a step away from getting banned. If you are
doing shady stuff then I’m happy Apple is taking action. 30k/month, jobs, my
company, etc... is not going to cut it. They are just sensational arguments.

~~~
fairplayer
Violated guideline: 5 Performance: Software Requirements. Unapproved use of
VPN in this context.

Yes, I agree, the post is emotional, but we do not hiding, selling history or
do something related.

~~~
threeseed
I posted a question before. And will post it here.

Does your product function as a VPN or is it just a website analytics tool ?

~~~
fairplayer
It works as a normal functional VPN (via our private servers) but the main
idea is traffic classification and reports. It's impossible to get this data
on iOS without VPN.

~~~
verrecken
I'm only an Android user, but I got an app (
[https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases](https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases)
) that does the same, but just uses a local VPN to analyze traffic and block
what I don't want. There isn't even a server it could talk to. What is the
problem with that on iOS ? Sending my whole traffic to your server is not
worth the analyzing you do, even if you block what I don't want like NetGuard
does.

------
gesman
Every business based on a single point of failure - single customer or single
platform is overexposed to risk. That’s what happened.

Do what others suggest to beg Tim Cook for mercy. Hopefully someone will help
you to reinstate your app.

Step 2:

Rethink your business model. It will happen again. Possible change - provide
app building services to others. You have expertise. You can deliver. You’ll
have multiple customers. Your business won’t rely on apple or Facebook of
YouTube mercy.

~~~
threeseed
> Do what others suggest to beg Tim Cook for mercy

Why bother ?

This app is capturing website history which would be invaluable to third
parties. Given the current environment (with Cambridge Analytica and Facebook)
there is no way any normal, sensible company wouldn't crack down on apps like
this given half the chance.

It sucks for the guy if his app isn't sending data to third parties but you
can't blame Apple for not trusting him.

~~~
AznHisoka
“This app is capturing website history which would be invaluable to third
parties.”

Foursquare is capturing location history, which it _admits_ to selling to
third parties.

I’m waiting for Apple to remove them from the app store.

~~~
threeseed
If this guy was a larger company with a good reputation and documented privacy
policies like Foursquare has then it's quite possible his app wouldn't have
been removed.

But the fact is this VPN app looks awfully similar to those dodgy apps we saw
on Facebook which were pretending to be some useful app but were secretly
selling your data to third parties. And since he is just a small time app
developer we (and by extension Apple) can't completely trust that he isn't
doing that.

------
cameronehrlich
If you really want to resolve this favorably, you should probably remove this
post and try to resolve this in a private conversation with Apple. They aren’t
gonna like this kind of attention...

~~~
imdsm
I agree with this. The best thing to do is try and resolve this with Apple.
Apple's review process is very particular, and sometimes simply resubmitting
an application version is enough to get it through. It's common for things to
be picked up by one person that are ignored by another. I've also found that
simply pressing the issue is enough to get reviews passed.

~~~
AmericanChopper
I’m not disagreeing with you, but Apple do just make it up as they go and will
make wildly inconsistent decisions, make major revisions to the rules out of
nowehere and then reverse them out of nowhere.

In a company I used to consult for, Apple has taken up 9 out of the last 12
months of their product roadmap after introducing new rules, and then revoking
them. They were reasonable to talk with, but... yikes. Worst part was all
their competitors just ignored the rules and cried until Apple reversed them,
so they were just massively punished by Apple for earnestly following the
rules.

------
yoz-y
The rule which you have violated is a dangerous one:

> 2.5.1 Apps should use APIs and frameworks for their intended purposes and
> indicate that integration in their app description.

It is all encompassing and actually often violated. But it not new that apple
shuts down apps that use APIs for novel purposes. Most famous is probably the
usage of VoIP or background music playing in order to keep apps from sleeping.

Nevertheless, it is never a good idea to use an API for something that goes
out of the line. It is where the innovation and money is, but the risk of
getting shut down like you did is real.

------
xHopen
A) Remove this post B) Contact, by phone an apple employee *your region. C) I
am serious about this, fly to Their offices to solve it. prove them that you
are not doing anything worng, they need that. Did they shutted you down
becuase you are making profits out of a digital asset without apple purchase?

------
Kudos
> We use VPN to analyze traffic and show reports to the user.

Where is your revenue coming from?

------
deft
Your app probably got removed because from what I gather you're a scammer.
This isn't the first time a scam app with massive recurring subscriptions was
banned.
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2017/06/12/apple-d...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2017/06/12/apple-
deletes-80kmonth-vpn-scam-app/#24bf351ebed1)

He's not saying the app name because he knows it got removed for a very
legitimate reason. Make a useful app and stop overcharging people for
worthless shit.

------
fiiv
I think as other users have said, the review board is your best bet.

But maybe you could let us know more about what the problem is exactly? Here's
Apple's guidelines for VPNs: [https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/#vpn...](https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/#vpn-apps)

Sounds from what you said the user is informed about what data you are
collecting, but what other part of the guidelines are you potentially breaking
here?

~~~
fairplayer
Apple Review Team rejected us based on: 5 Performance: Software Requirements
Unapproved use of VPN in this context.

~~~
fiiv
"2.5 Performance" is a long section with various ways your app might violate
this clause. In no part of it does it specifically mention VPNs. So you're
going to have to a bit more specific here.

I can assume that your app falls under this part of 2.5.1:

> Apps should use APIs and frameworks for their intended purposes and indicate
> that integration in their app description. For example, the HomeKit
> framework should provide home automation services; and HealthKit should be
> used for health and fitness purposes and integrate with the Health app.

So you're running a VPN using the NEVPNManager API, and I'm guessing your app
does something such as monitor traffic or speed or something like that by
routing all traffic through a VPN so you can "listen in" to get your reports.

Apart from appealing the ruling, I think maybe if you could be more specific
as to what your app is collecting and why, someone here might help with
figuring out an alternative way of doing that so that you can get your app
back in the store.

------
mratzloff
What, _exactly_ , does your app do?

------
cmstoken
Hopefully you can get in touch with some apple employee here and get it
resolved. Make sure you have your email in your profile.

~~~
falsedan
Please let's not turn HN into a tech support backchannel site.

~~~
raverbashing
If they only take action when publicly shamed I fail to see the problem.

~~~
gormz
I think it's more of the fact that he doesn't want people coming on HN and
whining everytime someone does them wrong just to get attention from the
business.

------
chrischoy
Just talk with the reviewer and follow the his suggestion for amendment, if
your application is not about selling users' browsing history and privacy .

We have our app being rejected serval times by Apple. We insist we have done
nothing wrong and many competitors do the same way. Eventually, we decided to
talk to the reviewer, and followed his suggestion to amend our application.
Then it finally get approved.

------
m-p-3

      monopolist platform
    

There's your problem, you have no control over your main distribution channel.

Unless they allow people to sideload apps like on Android, the situation is
unlikely to change.

------
manidoraisamy
I'm sorry for your loss. Do you know anyone in the AppStore team, whom you
have talked to during the good times? If not, do you know any fellow
developers who might have such contact? Your best option is to tell your side
of your story (your efforts/dependence) to a person, instead of assuming the
official communications as the final word.

EDIT: In future, I suggest you invest time in establishing relationship with
these teams (like going to WWDC), especially when you are betting your entire
revenue on such marketplaces.

~~~
fairplayer
Thank you for this advice, this is really helpful. Unfortunately I don't have
any good contacts, but I'm going to WWDC this year. Maybe some advices about
how to establish this relationship? Never did this before.

~~~
manidoraisamy
If you are a developer, you can try these:

\- Be active in Q&A sessions and community events. They might also have an
expert community that you can join [1]

\- Participate in alpha programs and connect with the product managers

\- If your app is widely adopted, offer them to do a customer success story
about unique iOS feature that you might have used. If you reach that stage,
they are unlikely to ban your app without warning.

[1] For Android -
[https://developers.google.com/experts/all/technology/android](https://developers.google.com/experts/all/technology/android)

------
tzahola
You've built your business on sand. Suck it up and move on.

------
chrisseaton
> monopolist platform

I don't think iOS is the leading, let alone monopoly, platform for smartphones
in any market is it?

~~~
yoz-y
It is not a monopoly but it is where the valuable customers are.

~~~
tzahola
Hm... Why would the majority of these "valuable" customers choose such a
flawed platform then? Maybe they prefer an ecosystem that has a vetting
process to prevent apps extracting too much of their "value"?

~~~
yoz-y
Why the scare quotes? It is a fact, study after study shows that people who
have iPhones spend more money in average[1]. This gives Apple a sort-of
monopoly in the sense that if you want to earn money you kind of need to get
iPhone customers.

Also I did not say that the platform is flawed, or criticised the fact that
Apple vets applications. If anything I would like Apple to test the
applications even more because there is still a lot of malware and crap apps
there. (e.g.: fake VPN apps, virus scanners and whatnot).

Not to say that the platform is flawless, there is a genuine problem if you
wish to create an app that Apple has not yet thought of because even if it
might be technically possible, the rule 2.5.1 is there against you. In this
particular case the developer has wrestled the VPN API to extract browsing
patterns (from what I understand). This is not something you should do with a
VPN, rather it should be done as a browser extension but hey, iOS does not
have that.

[1]: [https://moz.com/blog/apple-vs-android-aov](https://moz.com/blog/apple-
vs-android-aov)

~~~
tzahola
Yes, Apple users spend more money on average. But it's not like Apple has a
monopoly on these juicy users, and uses its evil walled garden to lock out
poor indie developers from milking these "valuable" users.

These juicy users _willingly_ chose the Apple ecosystem, precisely because
it's a safe and trustworthy walled garden, in contrast with Android's
offering.

Complaining about this is like a door to door salesman protesting to be let
into a gated community to sell his crap. The people living in the gated
community chose it precisely because they don't want any of your crap (among
other things).

------
verrecken
How do you make 30k/ mo profit with an app that analyze traffic ? Has the user
to pay everytime he wants to do an analysis ? If you do not sell any user
related data and we should believe you this, you have to tell us how you make
so much money with it..

~~~
fairplayer
Mostly subscriptions.

------
scarface74
What's the name of your app? If it were truly a useful non scammy app, Why
wouldn't you take advantage of the free publicity you could get by giving the
name?

------
andrewl-hn
Maybe not entirely on-topic, but I wonder. If the app update gets rejected
does it mean that the currently approved version of the app is removed from
the store, too?

I always had an impression that the current version stays up.

~~~
imdsm
In my experience, the current app stays up when a build is rejected, but if
the app itself becomes contested, it can be taken down (temporarily).

------
cm2012
Look into getting a lawyer to help navigate the app board.

------
path101
I'm sorry to hear mate. More generally, the war on VPN has indeed started, as
a continuity of the war on privacy. Hang in there, tough days ahead.

------
gtbcb
Why can't you just remove the VPN and resubmit? It doesn't seem totally
necessary.

------
bbg215
Just modify the app and/or VPN functionality slightly and re-submit as a new
update.

------
bufferoverflow
Appeal?

Publish under a different account?

Move to Android?

Sue?

~~~
Dumbdo
> Publish under a different account?

Not allowed and easily detectable

> Sue?

For what?

~~~
labster
Damages. Loss of income is a form of damage.

~~~
pavlov
When you signed up for the Apple developer program and accepted the agreement
for revenue sharing on the App Store, you've signed away all rights to sue for
damages.

Even the basic Developer Program License Agreement includes this language:

"Apple reserves the right to change, suspend, deprecate, limit, or disable
access to the Apple Services, or any part thereof, at any time without notice
(including revoking entitlements or changing any APIs in the Apple Software
that enable access to the Services). In no event will Apple be liable for the
removal of or disabling of access to any of the foregoing."

The revenue sharing agreement further reinforces that you can't hold Apple
liable for anything.

It's Apple's store and Apple's customers. They display your software in the
marketplace and provide cryptographic signing so that end users can install
it, but they can stop doing that at any time with no justification needed.

~~~
FundThrowaway
Not really relevant as this is an example of when you can sign away your
rights but I thought I'd just mention that it is impossible to sign away
certain protected rights, no matter what a contract says.

A good example is a paid parking lot where it might say something along the
lines of "by parking in this lot, you accept that 'parking company' is not
liable for any theft, loss or damage of property." however if say a light
fitting fell from the ceiling and damaged your car and you were able to prove
negligence by the parking company then you may hold them liable for the
damage.

Various companies try all kinds of unenforceable contract terms on the basis
that the average Joe believes that he has to stick to whatever he agreed to.
There was an amusing post on a legal blog where they went around NYC pointing
out the hundreds of unenforceable contract terms that we are exposed to
everyday.

~~~
gregoriol
Do you have source for the "legal blog post"? Would/Might be an interesting
read!

------
bobxyz
I think all you have left is your eyes to cry. When you trust rotten
companies, you don't come crying next. Your only solution, assuming your
mistake.

------
solowsoslow
I had a similar issue, but was able to get approved after all.

------
JAdamMoore
You are bad at risk management. Find another person/company so you can
abdicate some more responsibility and repeat the cycle because that's what
slow learners do.

------
winklercrinkler
> We use VPN to analyze traffic and show reports to the user.

A VPN is not necessary to do that. This might leave a reviewer in doubt the
VPN doesn't obscure other rule breaking.

