
Ending factory farming as soon as possible - robertwiblin
https://80000hours.org/2017/09/lewis-bollard-end-factory-farming/
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belorn
Looking through the different approaches on the list, I am missing one large
one. Fishermen are currently throwing away a majority of caught fish because
people only buy a very small selection of species (which also differ between
nations). We could more than double the amount of fish meat that get eaten
without changing the number of fish being killed, and yet for mostly cultural
reasons we don't.

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SwellJoe
While I'd rather see mass fishing stopped entirely (and I don't eat fish, or
any other meat, on ethical grounds), that's a valid point. I often think of
the fact that lobster was once considered trash, or only to be consumed by the
lowest classes, and only through an effective marketing campaign did it become
a luxury food.

But, realistically, many ocean ecosystems are already on the brink of
collapse. Merely increasing production won't save those ecosystems; though
maybe it'd stave it off for a few years. Our industrial economies have
produced seemingly limitless consumption and waste.

When you add up all of the wasted food at every stage of our agricultural
systems, it is staggering. It's not just fish that's being wasted, it's
everything. Solving the waste problem is more boring than growing meat in a
lab, but it might be more effective at reducing hunger and reducing ecological
destruction.

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belorn
The waste problem in the other points of the production chain is indeed
massive and solvable. The idea that fresh produce is sent to stores only to
have a fraction being bought is a massive waste in both food and introduction
of additional middle man. Online markets for food could fix this, but I have
yet to see one that can compete on prices. It might happen once transport
costs go down.

To go back to marine ecosystem, those that are on the brink of collapse is so
mainly because of 3 causes. Pollution, invasive species, and over overfishing
towards specific fish stocks. Both invasive species and overpopulation caused
by eutrophication could actually use an increase in fishing in order to
increase biodiversity, but a common element in both is that no one want to pay
for it. To my knowledge it actually common problem in many fresh water lakes.

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NeoBasilisk
I think lab-grown meat (if it ever becomes economically feasible) is the only
thing that can ever put a dent in factory farming.

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blizkreeg
I'm all for lab-grown meat but I do question if you'll ever fully satisfy the
meat lovers. In my opinion, a better approach would be a hybrid meat/fake meat
option which would still make a huge dent in factory farming but appeal to the
palates of those who love their cheeseburger.

If we can cut down "real" meat consumption by even half, you could in theory
make all cows free range.

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StavrosK
I don't know about other meat lovers, but yours truly can't wait for lab-grown
meat to be a thing so he can finally stop killing animals for food.

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lprubin
Out of curiosity, what's stopping you from going vegan or vegetarian in the
interim?

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StavrosK
Pretty much only this equation:

meat tastiness * degree it affects me > immorality of killing animals * degree
it affects me

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tnzn
Yeah, "vegan in the head but not in the plate", I think our ranks are growing
haha

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StavrosK
Exactly that. One of these days, someone will give me a choice between a
normal, horrifyingly-grown slab of meat and a slightly-more-expensive-but-
ethically-grown one, and then we'll see who's a hypocrite!

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gooseus
I really can't fathom the dogmatic line on vegans/vegetarians when it comes to
insect farming for human consumption...

They talk about it toward 2:20 (I do like how they had a full transcript and
ToC so you can jump around in the audio).

In any case, my take away was that because there might be some chance of a
"net negative" life for insects in farms, we shouldn't be looking to replace
some of our protein needs by insects.

Given the sheer amount of ecological damage that is being done to the planet
with each season of industrial animal farming, I really don't understand why
we're not looking at lab-grown insects as the MVP for "lab-grown meat".

The problems needing to be solved to make crickets/mealworm protein a scaled
operation that could reduce the demand on chicken/beef/pork are much easier
than growing meat in a lab (feel pretty confident in this claim, open to
rebuttal).

How many cows would be saved every year if just 1 major fast-food burger joint
switched to 50/50 mealworm-beef burgers? Would anyone even notice if Taco Bell
switched their taco meat to be 50% ground crickets?

What resources are required to make lab grown meat anyways? Where are they
sourced from? What habitats are collapsing to provide the necessary
solvents/catalysts/preservatives/energy/etc for whatever solutions it needs to
grow in? What are the negative externalities of this lab-growing process? What
does that look like at the scale necessary to take even 20% of the current
beef demand?

We're twisting our britches over what a cricket or mealworm might feel in a
factory farm setting, yet they are basically the perfect little machines for
turning carbohydrates, water and air into essential human-accessible proteins
and vitamins (crickets have a ton of B12, just like red meat). They're the
perfect stop-gap solution until the lab meat is ready for prime-time.

Also, insect-farming waste products are typically just great compost and
fertilizer and you could basically grow insects underground (mealworms love
the dark) and grow their substrate/feed above them. I think calories/acre
would be another useful measurement to look at when trying to evaluate which
direction human agriculture should be headed.

Alright, __TL;DR __\- Insect farming is low hanging fruit for alleviating the
ecological pressure of factory animal farming which is being ignored for no
good reason. /rant

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jrw
Thanks for posting this to Hacker News! Very interesting interview covering
all aspects of the animal welfare movement. I'm passing on the link to my
activist daughters and nieces.

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DougN7
Just pointing out an unintended consequence I saw in a cartoon:

As soon as nobody farms cows for meat, milk, and leather, cows will become an
endangered species/extinct because nobody will pay to keep them alive. And
there's not much space where they could survive on their own in the wild.

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jkchu
I don't think the main issue is with farming in general, but with factory
farming. Raising farm animals in a humane way is a huge improvement.

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tanilama
Who is going to be pay for the raised cost then. Government tax?

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HeyLaughingBoy
Many people (/me included) already buy sustainably-raised meat direct from
farmers. It's better tasting and often cheaper than meat in the supermarket.

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Npr251
Looking forward to listening to this!

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chiefalchemist
I don't think most people really care about animals suffering, or not.
However, most people do care about themselves and their children.

Long to short, factor farming generates a lot of ground level pollution.
Furthermore, those animals also generate a lot of greenhouse gases. Frame the
problem in terms of human suffering and more people are likely to pay
attention.

Years ago there was a NY Times Sunday magazine feature article on factor pig
farming. It was enlightening. Unfortunately, I've searched for it and can't
seem to find it. If you can find, do read it.

p.s. Growing crops to be fed to farm animals is also very inefficient. More
people would have more food if we all ate less animal protein.

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cies
I see 3 main reasons:

1\. Environmental -- For "our children" as you call it. This assumes that
countries have gov'ts that give a shit and are not totally controlled by the
industry (essentially the mega shareholders)

2\. Health -- Plant-based (especially _whole_ plant food) diet is much, much
healthier than the a diet that contains several serving of meat/dairy/eggs per
week (many have that in a day). This is ALSO an argument for the children, as
they will learn from us. (We could not tell kids to not smoke, we have to stop
ourselves too!)

3\. Ethical -- Whole categories of abuse towards fellow earthlings (poor,
women, slaves, lower-caste, captured enemies, etc.) were generally accepted as
permissible, yet are now near unanimously condemned. It is not unfathomable
that animals --that are currently still being permissibly abused for being of
a different species-- may get added to that list.

Also the ethical reason will have a huge impact on "our children". As we have
seen with the other steps we made in awareness, it is totally worth making
these steps.

Peace.

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chiefalchemist
I agree with all those reasons. But the majority of people don't care unless
you make it personal. Making the world a better place isn't good enough, it's
too abstract. You have to answer "What's in it for me?"

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cies
I was replying to a post roughly answering "what's in it for me" by "what's in
it for your children". All wanted to show that the 3 main reasons for going
vegan/plant-based all have a strong "for the children" side to them.

There's a huge influx of people in the vegan/plant-based communities from very
health conscious people. Many of them believe that science is showing that it
allows them to live healthier/happier/longer/stronger.

Is that not a good answer to "What's in it for me?" :)

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chiefalchemist
Yes and no. It's all true but too deep for most people. One punch to the nose
works better than 3 body blows ;)

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cies
I tend to pick different strategies for the amount of time I have of someones
attention.

But you're advocating the one blow will be from the "personal health" angle.
With little time on my hands I usually also go for this angle, simply because
I believe that all the people who'd want to be vegan/vegetarian "for the
animals" would be so by now. The health angle still has a kind of novelty/news
aspect to it (while being more personal and urgent then the environment
angle).

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golemotron
Am I the only one who wonders how what the actual difference in suffering is
in free range vs. factory farming? There might be a lot of projection going on
- people imagining themselves in the same circumstance as the animals and
missing the mark because of the differences between our sense of life and that
of other animals.

As an example, I once spoke to a person who thought the movie _The March of
the Penguins_ was horrific because the penguins just stood there week after
week in the freezing cold doing nothing. That may be perfectly fine for a
penguin. It might even be like what a adept meditator would experience in a
life of meditation.

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goatlover
Animals aren't totally different than us. We share a lot of similarities
biologically, and even in our brain structures. It's safe to assume that herd
animals need a decent amount of space to roam around, and that crowding is
stressful and possibly causes mental illnesses.

This is even more true of animals like pigs. Imagine dogs living their lives
out in kennels. Also consider the change in behavior in zoo animals when their
habitats are redesigned to more closely resemble their native habitats.

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golemotron
Thanks. That really has me wondering about the penguins now. Hundreds of
thousands of years and evolution has made no accommodation for their emotional
well being.

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goatlover
Why would evolution make an accommodation for their emotional well being if
the penguins are fit enough in their environment to pass their genes on?

That being said, I have no idea what it's like to be a penguin, or how much
they suffer. I did watch March of the Penguins and it seemed the males
huddling together deep in Antarctica during the winter were uncomfortable.

