
VW 'Dieselgate' software developed at Audi in 1999: report - oinkgrr
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-audi-idUSKCN0XG2DN
======
aidos
I'm actually looking at getting a car at the moment so I've been looking into
this to better understand the repercussions for consumers.

It's weird, VW say that if your car if affected, they'll fix it. It's a
software update that a) won't affect performance and b) won't affect fuel
consumption.

So, why did they do it in the first place?

Edit "VW confirmed the fix will not affect the performance or fuel economy of
the cars, while Mueller also said the cars will pass the European emissions
test (without cheating) after the fix has been installed." \-
[http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-
emissions-s...](http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-
scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news)

~~~
tyho
What the software actually did was stop the mixing of DEF[0] into the exhaust
gases. DEF is a consumable catalyst that reduces NOx emissions[1]. If they had
mixed it in properly as they did when the car was under test, then fuel
consumption or performance would not change, but the resovwair of DEF inside
the car would be depleted more quickly.

My theory is that they reduced the consumption rate of DEF so that it could be
filled up during regular services without being depleted before one was due.
They could instead just provide a larger reservoir of DEF, or schedule more
frequent maintenance. Either solution would not impact fuel consumption or
performance but would fix the issue. Remember DEF is injected into the exhaust
gases and does not interact with the engine at all.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid)
[1] [https://lwn.net/Articles/670488/](https://lwn.net/Articles/670488/)

~~~
paol
Maybe that's the case for engines that use DEF, but the cheating was done in
engines with no DEF injection systems too.

In those engines at least I doubt very much "the fix will not affect the
performance or fuel economy", unless they resort to extremely expensive
changes that seem unlikely (like adding said system to cars that don't have
it).

~~~
DannyBee
So they'd be dumb to say it just for PR reasons - A bunch of people will test
it, if their statements turn out to be false, they'll be a massive class
action suit that will be pretty easily won.

It's entirely possible, of course, that they are counting on this, and decided
by then things will have died down enough PR wise that making the PR statement
makes sense.

------
cisstrd
So the software used was written in 1999 at Audi, designed to be "capable of
turning off certain engine functions", for what purpose? Cheating purposes?
Testing purposes? Does not say.

I personally find that not really informative, but ok.

Regarding VW: Everyone living at Germany the last years and following the news
heard that same mantra over and over again... "to be the most successful car
maker", every end of the year the story was how far behind they were compared
to Toyota or in other words: how much closer they came.

Problem is that they were absolutely obsessed with beating their competitors,
especially Toyota, at the same time VW relied heavily on the earnings of their
premium brands Audi and Porsche, the margins of VW itself were always somewhat
thin, especially compared to Toyota.

Too many models, too much variation, they are definitely pursuing now to shift
to less models and (even) more modular platforms, but at the same time closing
down plants in Germany and shifting to foreign countries will likely not
happen. The state of Lower Saxony holds ~20% of the company, VW has repeatedly
pledged to "stay a german company" and doesn't want to cut jobs in their home
country.

Under those circumstances, competing with Toyota might just have not been
possible. VW heavily made its bet on the Diesel Engine, and maybe that was
wrong, as they had to cheat to make that bet pay off. VW needs a change in
culture, desperately, that is unlikely to happen though. Interesting times to
come, I wouldn't bet on VW though... but then again, what somewhat rational
thinking person would, I know.

~~~
acz
The software has been written by Bosch by Audi’s request. Bosch have even put
a disclaimer that it might be illegal using it out of testing lab.

------
the_mitsuhiko
I find this very confusing because the software that caused "dieselgate" was
written by Bosch and other companies and not by either VW or Audi.

~~~
spatulon
I work in the industry, but have no knowledge of those particular Bosch/VW
projects.

Yes the Tier-1 supplier is responsible for building the final software image
that runs on their ECU, and for some smaller OEMs the Tier-1 will write all
the application software in addition to the basic platform software. However,
it's not unusual for the bigger OEMs (such as VW) to develop parts of the
application software themselves and provide it as object code for the Tier-1
supplier to link. This is effectively a black box as far as the Tier-1 is
concerned.

~~~
oxryly1
Wait, so VW or Audi would develop software and supply it to Bosch? And in
object code format?

That does seem backwards.

------
f_allwein
So the manipulations have been going on since 1999 (2005 for VW) and appear to
have been deliberate, rather than snuck in by a small group of engineers.

Will be interesting to see how VW and the other brands mentioned here get out
of this. Their crisis management so far certainly does not help.

~~~
joekrill
According to this article Audi developed the software in 1999 and never used
it. So it's incorrect to say this has been going on since 1999 (assuming this
article is correct). I guess they could still claim that this mysterious small
group of engineers snuck the code, which Audi developed, into the VW ECUs.

------
braderhart
Right before this happened I was looking into getting a Golf SportsWagen
Diesel TDI. When the news broke, the dealership I was working with stopped
selling them. They tried to get me to buy a gas model instead. I asked them
how much they were willing to work with me. They wouldn't even budge saying
that the gas model wasn't affected, and that they didn't feel like the
depreciation would be affected. Screw you VW!

~~~
mrpippy
I believe VW has been running good incentive programs since the diesel scandal
broke (for obvious reasons), but losing the diesel models really hurt the
SportWagen lineup. The diesel was the upper trim, and carried some of the
nicer features (like a 6-speed manual available across the range)

~~~
braderhart
I haven't paid much attention to pricing lately, but they pretty much lost my
business because of that. I'm sure the dealership was hurting too but it was
bad business all around. The 6-speed manual was the whole reason I wanted it.
I can't imagine how angry I would've been if I had just bought one and found
out a few weeks after.

------
glenndebacker
To be honest it would really surprise me if Audi is the only one pulling these
kind of tricks. A lot of car manufactures like to skew numbers.

Look at the fuel/distance range some are advertising with. I never once got
the same fuel/range ratio or the difference is a lot bigger in practice.

~~~
cptskippy
It's pretty well understood that government tests are not reflective of real
world driving habits or conditions. The test is however consistent and can be
used as a basis for comparison of different vehicles.

It's very much like synthetic benchmarks for CPUs. They won't give you a 100%
accurate picture but they're a good basis for comparison.

------
maho
I am German and went to school in Germany. I completed the 11th grade at an
American high school in Oregon, as an exchange student.

One of the more unexpected culture shocks I experienced, was how academic
cheating was seen as bad _even by the American students_. In contrast, let me
give you a brief, personal account of academic cheating in my school(s) in
Germany:

We cheated. A lot [1]. Mostly, it was "cooperative cheating" (copying each
other's homework, comparing answers during exams), but sometimes it was
cheating to get ahead personally (using cheat sheets). Only rarely did we copy
homework off the internet, but mostly, because the internet was pretty new.
Having others (parents) flat-out do homework for us was, at least to me,
unknown, and would have been seen as "bad" cheating, even by the students.

Our teachers were by no means oblivious to the problem. Quite the contrary!
Having cheated in schools themselves, they knew all the tricks. They spotted
us. And they mostly let it slide. I guess if all students are cheating, they
still have a level playing-field? In any case, the cooperative nature of our
cheating, and the "us vs. the teachers"-attitude, created a strong bond among
us students, and helped integrate the nerds among us (myself included) into
the general student body. Imagine my surprise, as I tried to recreate this
bond with my fellow American students at the Oregon high-school!

Most times, the consequences for getting caught cheating in an exam were (from
1st grade to final exams at University, including medical "boards", my wife
tells me): You get a warning for being caught the 1st time, a stern warning
for being caught the second time, and you fail the exam for being caught the
third time. This is _per exam_.

The only times I ever heard second warnings being issued, was teachers mocking
the students for being too obvious. I don't recall ever seeing someone fail an
exam for cheating, although I hear, it does happen.

Cheating subsides as you move up in the academic system. Cheating on your PhD-
thesis is not seen as a trivial offense anymore, but as a serious offense not
entirely unlike fraud.

And here is my points about Dieselgate: I would not be surprised at all if
management and the whole engineering team were in on it together - at every
German (and possibly European) company simultaneously. With a mindset of: "If
everyone is doing it, noone is at an unfair disadvantage." Just like school.
Or like quoting fuel-consumption measured by the European standrad such-and-
such. Or like giving projected battery-life for a tablet or notebook. Or ...

I have since come to appreciate the American way of treating (academic)
cheating, but, at times, I also appreciate the German way. It's simply a
cultural difference, and I don't argue for either way as the "right way".

[1]: [http://www.zeit.de/2012/34/C-Abschreibestudie-Interview-
Satt...](http://www.zeit.de/2012/34/C-Abschreibestudie-Interview-Sattler)
(This German article describes a study, in which 4 out of 5 students admitted
to having cheated in the last semester, at university. If anything, I would
expect the fraction of cheating high-school students to be even higher.)

Addendum: I have also worked with students from countries, where cheating
seems to be even more blatant than in Germany. I was (Of course! Certainly!)
morally outraged! I only later realized my hubris.

~~~
nmrm2
Cheating was rampant at my American high school; teachers were either
completely incompetent or were aware of the cheating and didn't care.
Penalties were similar to what you describe.

That said, I wasn't in the Pacific Northwest, and my general impression is
that people from that region are, on balance, more honest than in the region
that I came from. But of course generalizations and grass is always greener
and all that.

------
excitom
The practice of adding "gate" to the end of every scandal should have ended in
the last century.

------
rurban
No, they still haven't got it. It was developed by Bosch, probably on request
by Audi, and it was parameterized (= enabled) by Audi 1999.

Most others engine manufacturers were also tested positive to use this cheat
setting.

~~~
rurban
And this is a recent investigation by german authorities, confirming that
everyone cheated.

[http://www.thelocal.de/20160420/several-german-car-
manufactu...](http://www.thelocal.de/20160420/several-german-car-
manufacturers-cheated-on-emissions)

------
stuaxo
"But they never used it" ORLY ?

~~~
buro9
Haven't we all created software that is never used?

------
justsaysmthng
I've noticed changes in my personality since this scandal happened.

Before it, I strongly believed that it's possible to be just as successful and
competitive without breaking any rules.

I didn't go to exams which I didn't study for and refused to cheat when
everyone else was doing it. I had opportunities to earn a lot of money by
doing shady things, but I've always refused, because I didn't want to
compromise on my moral values.

But diesel gate made me stop and think.

If Germany's largest company does it - then who else does it ?

Add to that the wiki/snowden leaks and now the panama papers (to name just a
few) and I'm totally confused:

It seems that the rich and successful are all corrupt cheaters.

Why do I have to part with 30%-40% of my earned income so that some corrupt
politicians can spend them on wars and distribute them to their cronies ?

Why do I have to play by the rules when the only advantage of doing so is a
"clear conscience" which nobody gives two cents about ... maybe just my 5-year
old daughter.. but she also believes in Santa Claus.

So this scandal has really put me at a moral crossroads - will I go on being a
"sucker" or play by the "big boys' rules" and be taken 'seriously' \- take
advantage of the weak, find ways to avoid taxes, steal, cheat, etc ?

What's even more disturbing is that this scandal was provoked by maybe a
handful of executives at VW, but now tens of thousands of engineers and
workers are going to pay the price - in the form of layoffs, reduced bonuses
and so on.

Once again, very unfair, since most of those people, I'm sure, are good
professionals.

So yeah, scandals like this generate more than financial losses or pollution.
They generate loss of faith and disappointment and encourage others to step
over the line to the "dark side" and become corrupt themselves.

~~~
LesZedCB
Funny, because for myself, reading about these events from a marxist
perspective, not a single one of them is surprising. In fact, all of them are
completely predictable.

The story that we've been sold about laissez faire capitalism and neoliberal
economics is a farce, pushed by the epic levels of deregulation during the
Reagan era.

There is no "crony-capitalism," it's just _capitalism_. That's it, that's what
capitalism does. It breeds inequality.

~~~
tamana
Your statement is light on meaning unless you can explain how X avoids
breeding inequality. Alternatives to capitalism breed inequality as well.
Compare any ruling Communist Party to a civilian in their regime.

~~~
LesZedCB
Yes, a member of the communist party cadre in certain historical times was
separated from the workers they represented. They were full time
revolutionaries, no longer part of the working class. This was one of the main
issues (in my opinion) with the USSR.

In modern socialist revolutions, the representation must not be separated from
the working class. Though, I am also more supportive of tendencies that uphold
grassroots democratic behavior. See Rojava for more interesting ideas on that.

~~~
noir_lord
The system you are talking about sounds like a cross between a direct
democracy and a post-scarcity communist society, if you've not read the works
of Iain M Banks you should check them out, you are pretty much describing The
Culture :).

~~~
LesZedCB
> The Culture is a fictional interstellar anarchist utopian society

Woah, yes, that's going to number one on my reading list. Thanks for the
recommendation.

~~~
noir_lord
IMO possibly the best sci-fi ever written, the stories are incredible and his
writing style is sublime.

I envy you getting to read them all for the first time.

~~~
LesZedCB
I'm reading the Mars trilogy right now. It's also really good.

~~~
icebraining
Haven't read the others, but Red Mars is excellent, and better than Culture,
in my opinion (though the latter varies in quality).

For another vision of a futuristic post-scarcity anarchist adhocracy, see
James P. Hogan's _Voyage from Yesteryear_ , which features less "magical" AI
and is more of a reflection on cultural conditioning.

------
lugus35
Please, don't call it 'dieselgate' as it is only a VW group fraud.

~~~
JanezStupar
Yes?

> The VW scandal more generally raised awareness over the high levels of
> pollution being emitted by diesel vehicles built by a wide range of
> carmakers, including Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW,
> Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot.[22][23] Independent tests carried out by ADAC
> proved that, under normal driving conditions, diesel vehicles including the
> Volvo S60, Renault's Espace Energy and the Jeep Renegade, exceeded legal
> European emission limits for nitrogen oxide (NOx) by more than 10 times.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#A...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Automotive_industry_and_other_commentators)

~~~
makomk
I think that's probably a little misleading. The European emissions limits are
based on a specific driving cycle that's known to be kinder than real-world
driving. If you use a more realistic test cycle with more aggressive
acceleration you're going to get worse efficiency and pollution than the NEDC
tests.

~~~
remael
Exactly. Those are two different, though related, issues. 1\. Cheating on the
NEDC tests. 2\. Emission limits are not coupled to real driving scenarios.
Edit: This is important to distinguish. 1 is illegal, 2 is the law but maybe
changed.

