
Samsung Galaxy Note 7 owners told to turn off device - M_Grey
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37614770
======
asafira
Can anyone on hackernews comment on the specific issue in the Note 7? And why
was it (seemingly) easy to screw up the replacement phones as well?

Are we taking for granted the lengths that other hardware manufacturers go to
to make sure such issues don't occur with their batteries? (At least, those
innovating in regard to battery capacity, chemistry, and shape)

~~~
mortenjorck
Indeed, it just seems inconceivable that a company with Samsung's experience
and institutional knowledge about Li-ion technology could so thoroughly and
irreparably botch something like this.

Li-ion in 2016 is, outside of the occasional 3-5 years-away breakthrough
story, _boring,_ a mature technology. One would think the best practices for
safely building power supplies around it would have been settled on years ago.

Or: Am I wrong and there are in fact several competing standards in the
industry right now? Is there actually some present innovation in Li-ion that
Samsung may have utilized, in retrospect prematurely, in the Note 7?

~~~
fzzzy
While li-ion is widely used in practice, I don't think it's fair to say it is
a mature technology (as a sibling commenter points out, there are still lots
of research papers coming out in the field) or that it is well understood.

For example, Boeing had problems with battery fires on the 787 in 2013 and
2014. "The causes of the battery failures are still unknown."[1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems)

~~~
Animats
Li-ion is a widely deployed technology that isn't very good. Like coal.

This battery chemistry is inherently fragile. Drive a nail through a Li-ion
battery and it will explode. Tesla had to put a titanium plate under their
battery after some fires from punctures by road debris. If a Li-ion battery
overheats, it will go into thermal runaway and increase its temperature until
it catches fire. Overcharging alone is sufficient to do this. It takes about
six safety devices to make a Li-ion battery reasonably safe. Leave some of
them out, and you get the hoverboard debacle.

There are safer battery chemistries, such as LiFePO4, but you give up about
14% energy density.

~~~
LeoPanthera
> Drive a nail through a Li-ion battery and it will explode.

It's misleading to say that it "will" explode. As the following video shows,
they don't always.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqPFuzRIANs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqPFuzRIANs)

~~~
th0br0
That's LiPo though, not Li-Ion

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taurath
So what, they're telling customers to go without a smartphone while they
figure out what to do? I doubt many of them will be willing to pick up a
different Samsung phone in the meantime. Looks like a boon for LG HTC and
Apple.

You could tell it would get really bad when they stopped issuing replacement
phones. Not being able to find a big bad problem twice is a huge mistake for a
hardware company in a very competitive market.

~~~
ClassyJacket
> I doubt many of them will be willing to pick up a different Samsung phone in
> the meantime.

To be fair the Note 7 and the S7 Edge are damn near identical. Screen, camera,
design, all very close. It's just that S Pen really. If someone doesn't care
about that, they have a Samsung option right there.

~~~
JBlue42
Traded in my S3, that had been doing well over the years but started losing
charge more quickly, for an S6. First one overheated so badly when running
updates the first time I thought I would burn my fingers. Traded it in
thinking it was a bum phone. New phone heats up but not as bad. Lost charge
very quickly very fast though and will freeze with video at times. I use a
quick-charging cable now to keep it 'topped up' to take to work each day.

Looking forward to trading it in ASAP for a non-Samsung phone.

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jflowers45
The Takata airbag recall as well as the Note 7 are two of the most high
profile recalls I can think of in recent history. Can anyone think of any
other recalls that affected so many consumers and received so much press
coverage?

~~~
niels_olson
This is trivia compared to the Ford tire recalls or the Toyota brakes recall.

~~~
rconti
Not that you're wrong about how well-known the Toyota unintended acceleration
fiasco was, but, despite agreeing to a settlement, there's simply no evidence
that there was anything wrong with the cars.

~~~
mkhpalm
I can't see how they had a choice in the matter. What I found the strangest
about all these dire Toyota NHTSA problems came about right after the US
Government became the major shareholder to the GM corporation, did the auto
bailouts, cash for clunkers, etc.

Very coincidental.

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danso
Was just on a regional Southwest flight today. The pilot instructed everyone
with a "Samsung Galaxy" (not specifically the Note 7) to power-off their
device for the remainder of the flight. I'm sure the generalization of the
warning was an over-cautious oversight.

~~~
chipperyman573
It might also have to do with the fact that a lot of people (especially non-
techies) don't know which galaxy they have (which is odd because I've noticed
that people always seem to know if they have the M7, M8 or M10).

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ClayFerguson
People will start listening when Samsung says "Put the phone in a fireplace,
or an oven, or any bathtub made of porcalin, and then dial 911."

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superx
1\. Make a version with the removable battery (+3-5mm to thickness).

2\. Have a an option with battery pack using the 18650 or similar cells (also
would have much more capacity), can be interchangeable with normal thinner
battery.

Anyway, that idiocy with large ultra-thin lipo powered devices must come to an
end (otherwise you have a ready ignition if it is bends).

PS: One cannot exclude insiders from competition contaminating the separator
film during the battery manufacture.

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sengork
Replaceable battery on Note 8 (I hope!).

~~~
simonh
I've seen this suggested on other threads, but why? If your phone starts
smoking and burning out are you really going to start fiddling with it to
remove the now red-hot battery? What are you going to do with it if you do
remove it? All you've done is remove a physical barrier between the incendiary
device and flamables in the environment.

We don't even know if the flaw is in the battery itself. Maybe it's in the
charging circuitry, or even the software controlling the charging cycle.
Personally in a situation like this I wouldn't care where the flaw was, I'd
want a different replacement device anyway. Especially if even the device
manufacturer apparently can't figure out how to make these things safe.

Finally, one theory is that Samsung designed the battery cells to be too thin.
Since removable battery designs reduce the amount of space available for a
battery, the constraints on the battery size would be even greater,
conceivably making an issue like this even more likely.

~~~
pritambaral
It's not about just what the user can do with a replaceable battery, it's
about how much easier it becomes for the company to replace batteries in the
field (and backplate, if too thin): just ship new batteries and have user come
and immediately leave with a "fixed" phone. (Of course, if your new battery is
also broken, then nothing really can help.)

And — do correct me if I'm wrong — but removable batteries don't add
thickness, only length.

------
walkingolof
I dont think this is the first time they have an issue with batteries, when I
bought my S4, the battery swell up while charging, there was a recall, but
since it was user replaceable you just got a new battery and everything was
fine.

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plowman
So basically a recall without the hassle of having to replace all of these
phones?

~~~
M_Grey
...And with all of the risks that someone won't get the message, and really
hurt themselves. As it stands, this is going to be a nightmare for Samsung to
recover from, just in terms of PR.

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ars
Why the advice to turn it off? Wouldn't it make more sense (be safer) to leave
it somewhere and let it drain down naturally?

~~~
chipperyman573
I don't know anything about why the phones explode, how come letting it
discharge be safer?

~~~
ars
Because with no energy in the battery it can't explode. Otherwise you have a
potential ticking time bomb.

~~~
pritambaral
discharged battery != no energy in battery

discharged battery = no electrically extractable energy in battery

There's still plenty of chemical energy in the battery.

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pixl97
Maybe you could just take the battery out...

Oh, yea, about that.

I'll stick with my S5 till it falls apart.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
There is at least one of these comments on every single story about the Note.
We get it already, removable battery yada yada yada.

~~~
stronglikedan
It's a valid complaint when batteries lose nearly half of their capacity or
more within the first year, and people tend to keep their phones longer than
that. Just not buying the phones doesn't necessarily get the word out as to
_why_ , but posts like this do. It may seem trivial, as posts on forums
generally are, but in greater numbers they become less trivial.

~~~
Altay-
Who keeps their phone for over a year? No one rational, that's for sure.

If you think its wasteful to change your phone annually, you better never go
to the movies, buy coffee outside, etc. The hours-per-dollar return on a phone
is better than anything else you can spend money on save for a PC, mattress,
and a few other objects.

~~~
flukus
> Who keeps their phone for over a year? No one rational, that's for sure.

Most people do, there is nothing irrational about it. Just because something
is cheap doesn't mean you should buy more of it.

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memracom
There is a fix. Legislate the minimum thickness of lithium batteries. This
will stop the idiocy of smaller/lighter right in its tracks. The thinner the
battery, the closer the positive and negative terminals are, and the greater
the risk of bending or pressure causing them to contact. In case you didn't
notice there are lots and lots of people buying bigger devices these days.
Bigger phones, bigger tablets. Samsung even sells a tablet with an 18.4 inch
screen, the Galaxy View. There is a market for all kinds of devices and there
is no need to compromise public safety for the sake of fashion. For that
matter, you don't even need to legislate it. The airlines just have to start
demanding that all tablets and phones are measured against a thickness scale.
If your device does not fit through the slot, you can't take it on board. You
either don't fly or you pay a mandatory fee for safekeeping until you return.

~~~
wyager
You're the kind of person responsible for those shitty CARB-regulated gas can
valves.

~~~
function_seven
You mean the ones that almost guarantee that I'll spill a bit of gas each time
I use them, those ones? The ones that are so bad that the best alternative is
a “utility container”[1]?

Seriously, I've never seen such a counter-productive regulation in my life.

[1] [https://amzn.com/B00SJWPKAG](https://amzn.com/B00SJWPKAG)

~~~
wyager
Fun story: I and some buddies were in Colorado skiing over spring break. My
buddy accidentally left his truck idling overnight and ran out of gas. We had
a gas can, so no problem, right? Well, thanks to CARB, the gas can valve was
so complicated that it jammed up (probably due to the cold) and could not be
operated. We tried smashing it open, and eventually some spring-loaded piece
shot into the trees and the can was still stuck shut. Thanks, congress!

A neighbor ended up having an illegal jerry can that actually worked.

