
Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017) - imartin2k
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8x9j3k/depressed-people-see-the-world-more-realistically
======
zzzeek
> researchers presented both depressed and non-depressed participants with a
> button and a green light. They then asked the participants to figure out to
> what degree their responses (pushing the button) controlled that light.
> Depressed participants were much better at judging the degree of their
> control, while participants who weren't depressed tended to assume that they
> had more control over the light than they actually did.

so they gave a depressing scenario to people and the depressives were quicker
to identify that it was, in fact, a depressing situation.

however, put depressives into a fun party where people are open and accepting
and the depressives will often instead focus on a negative, antisocial view
that is manufactured by their mood disorder and takes them out of this very
welcoming and positive situation.

As a lifelong depressive I've struggled to see reality for what it is and not
as what my depression is constantly misrepresenting. I of course also have the
experience where I can see an actually depressing situation for what it is
more readily than others, but I think the premise of the article is still
generally absurd. The world seems like a very hostile and dangerous place to
me, and while you can of course find limitless examples of this being
completely true, it nonetheless it prevents me from doing things that other
people do quite safely and successfully all the time and for which this dark
perspective is completely exaggerative and distorting.

~~~
potta_coffee
Or maybe the person is just an introvert or has sensory issues - then a fun
party becomes a torture chamber. As me how I know.

~~~
taurath
Neutrally overstimmed and negatively stimmed are different though! If you’re
just neutrally overstimmed you can find a quiet corner, another room with less
noise and fewer people, or hang out on the porch. Negatively stimmed you won’t
be able to be in or around the place at all. Depression or anxiety is a
“general” upset, whereas overstimmed is a “local” upset.

~~~
potta_coffee
That really makes no sense to me. Let me explain. Certain types of places /
events are extremely distressing to me because of sensory factors. Now, when I
have to attend a conference for work, I have extreme anxiety - the anxiety is
caused because of the sensory distress I know I'll be facing. "Local" vs
"general" doesn't seem to be a useful distinction for me. I could be
misunderstanding you.

~~~
taurath
The anxiety is what I mean by general stress. I'd bet you probably suffer more
from the anxiety about the sensory distress more than you do the sensory
distress! I had a problem with this as well - the anxiety totally took over,
and was much worse. Over time, I managed to keep the distress local to when I
was actually feeling overwhelmed, and then could start to work to mitigate the
sensory overload, by taking frequent breaks outside, wearing noise cancelling
headphones, sunglasses, or finding quiet corners with fewer people.

Its not much of a problem for me anymore, and over time my senses have become
a bit more fine tuned and won't be piqued by much more than very
loud/unexpected sounds.

------
rtkaratekid
I'm not so depressed these days (thankfully) but this "realism" does tend to
manifest is different ways. I'm very self-conscious about not dragging people
down because some thoughts that I think daily that are normal for me, seem to
be absolutely psychologically crippling for people who previously hadn't, or
didn't want to think such things.

Usually when I do express these thoughts they're in the form of semi-dark
humor ("You don't like the boss? Don't worry, you'll only have to deal with
him for a couple more years (because you won't quit) and then the company will
go under and you'll have to work somewhere else with a similar boss"). The
humor is to mostly try to diffuse how harsh these statements can seem to
others, and because I find them legitimately morosely funny, but for some
reason I tend not to get laughter when I say them... So I try to keep this
"depressive realism" to myself most of the time.

I promise I have social skills. That's probably my biggest consistent faux
pas. But sometimes I wonder why I can lose friends so fast by just saying
things that are true or are very likely to be true. I guess a lot of people
don't like to see that clearly? I don't know.

~~~
esotericn
I've found a lot of correlation between this sort of sense of humour and the
type of place I enjoy working at.

Me and straight laced folk just don't get on. It doesn't work. There's an
impedance mismatch whereby there are all of these invisible lines that I cross
without even realising.

Like yeah, dude, your job is bullshit. So is mine. Life is, and then you die.
If you're not fucking around and having (harmless) fun, what are you doing?

Those sorts of people need to exist - society would fall apart if everyone
were so freewheeling - but I definitely seem to self select out of those
groups.

~~~
monktastic1
To paraphrase Alan Watts, don't trust anyone who isn't in on the Great Cosmic
Joke :)

~~~
enobrev
This isn't a direct response to you, but moreso to this thread. There are some
who are in on the joke and have even found quite a bit of humor in it, but no
longer find that humor useful. It's like an old joke which was hilarious and
insightful at one point but has been told too many times to remain
interesting.

I for one tend to envy those who either don't know or don't care. Being
cynical seemed cool and somehow "smarter" for some time, and then eventually
it can, for some, seem just as naive.

I'd rather look at life earnestly. Yes, it's all fucked and we've no control
over it. Society is a fiction, etc. But I'd rather love my wife, do work I
enjoy, and not point out the absurdity all day every day to myself and others,
because it's just an old stupid joke to which we _all_ happen to be the
punchline.

~~~
4ntonius8lock
I've found that I need the humor more when I'm doing less/less well.

When I'm doing/doing well, I don't need the humor as the crushing weight of of
existential dread and absurdity is drowned out by my involvement in life.

------
kypro
I don't think it's the case that all depressed people are realists, but that
realists in general may be more predisposed to depression or being depressed.

It seems likely some people suffering from depression have real mental
illness, and a much much smaller number of people are ultra realists and get
depressed over real negative events and facts.

I know there have been times in my life where I have suffered from depression
because of my realism. On occasion bad things have happened to me and I've
found people will try to comfort me by saying things like, "everything happens
for a reason", "it will all work out in the end", etc, but being a realist, I
know there often isn't a reason and it won't work out. At best I can only hope
that I find it in me to continue through the rest of my life with the regret
or loss that I'm experiencing. And even then, even if I make it to the end of
my life, what's the point? Our lives and suffering is all pointless in the
grand scheme of things.

My cat died this morning. Sorry.

~~~
groby_b
I'm really sorry to hear your cat died. From one cat lover to another - it's
awful. It doesn't "happen for a reason".

But please do remember all the good times you had, too. Being a realist also
means acknowledging how much joy you had together, how much unconditional love
you got.

------
dawg-
Here's an important thing from the article:

>it's most likely to occur in mildly depressed people—those suffering from
major depression, by contrast, are more likely to suffer from larger
distortions in their thinking.

I wonder if we have overly-pathologized the regular melancholy that comes with
every day life? If mildly depressed people actually see the world
realistically, maybe nothing is actually wrong with them? Should we call them
depressed or should we just call them human?

I think we need to recognize the constant striving for happiness, and the
inevitable disappointment when we don't reach it, as the unhealthy behavior
that it is. It's okay, normal, even _necessary_ to feel sad and pissed off at
the world sometimes. It doesn't automatically mean something is wrong with
you.

Of course, it would be absolutely unacceptable for the makers of Prozac to
lose half of their customers, so it is a major thoughtcrime in many circles to
even suggest the possibility.

If people have "mild depression", maybe sometimes it's okay to tell them to
toughen up, put their head down and keep grinding because that's what life
consists of. If you are not mildly depressed then you are an idiot - it
shouldn't be called mild depression, it should just be called "existing as a
human being". You grind and suffer and struggle through life, because you were
born into a broken world and have no other choice. Sometimes all the struggle
gets you good things to be proud of and appreciate. And sometimes all the
suffering doesn't amount to anything of worth at all. That's life, not a
pathology. It's amazingly beautiful if you can learn to come at it from the
right angle, but that doesn't mean it will ever hurt any less.

~~~
MadWombat
"It's okay, normal, even necessary to feel sad and pissed off at the world
sometimes. It doesn't automatically mean something is wrong with you."

But this is not what mild depression is like. It is when feeling sad and
pissed off at the world is the baseline. It is OK to feel sad, but I kinda
wish I felt something else a bit more often.

~~~
a1369209993
Have you seen what (most of) the world looks like? Feeling sad and pissed off
at it is the _correct_ baseline.

------
riskneutral
I used to feel this way, then I discovered meditation and now I am almost
always in a positive state of mind. In my experience, it is depressed people
who are not seeing realistically, and they are caught in cycles of mental
delusion. Happiness achieved in this way is just about truly accepting the
"depressing" realities and being okay with it all including your own
depressing reactions to the realities, and then not identifying with these
mental processes, not letting them define, own or move you as a conscious
being. After some practice, a person can cope with life's unending,
unexpected, negative surprises by processing the negative event in a single
moment and then returning the mind to a calm and positive state. For some
reason, in our society, we are not taught that it is possible (and in fact
imperative) to observe, guide and ultimately control one own mind and thought
stream. This has been practiced in other societies for thousands of years, and
even in our own society mindfulness/meditation is steadily becoming a
mainstream fixture.

~~~
izzydata
Is it fair to acknowledge all of the worlds atrocities and then dismiss them
so you can be happy?

~~~
qntty
You don't dismiss things in the world, you dismiss unhelpful patterns of
thinking, and cultivate helpful patterns.

~~~
izzydata
It can be more helpful to the world around you even if it is less helpful for
yourself to not dismiss these patterns of thinking.

------
akuji1993
My therapist said to me once: "I really like pessimistic patients a lot more
than overly optimistic ones. A depressed, pessimistic person is judging the
world very accurately and is not crushed by a negative outcome, as they have
already thought about exactly that. They might even completely circumvent the
negative outcome, because they thought about every possibility beforehand.
Optimists on the other hand can be crushed and become very depressed when the
positive outcome is not the result they are presented with."

~~~
Funes-
>A depressed, pessimistic person is judging the world very accurately.

Absolutely not. I've dealt with a lot of pessimistic, depressed people--I've
been clinically depressed, as well, in the past--, and we can be the most
closed-minded, whiny, oblivious people out there. I think that's exactly how
depression actually works: one is enslaved, kept away from experiencing the
world as it is, by their extraordinarily reduced perspective, which is
seemingly unescapable to the depressed individual.

I don't think it's reasonable to conflate negativity--which _leads_ to bad
outcomes--with a realistic mindset--which takes into account potential bad
outcomes. I find the opposite to be true, in my experience: the more positive
and proactive a person is, the stronger they can become--and not crushed by a
negative turn of events.

~~~
fellow_human
This is absolutely true in my experience. Going to my therapist I realized
that I spent all my time focusing on negative outcomes for a given life
problem of mine. So much so that the failure to imagine a more optimistic
outcome left me paralyzed to act. This paralysis left me feeling hopeless and
depressed. As I talked things over I realized that:

1) We have a perverse tendency to reinforce our existing views in new
experiences. For example, if one believes he/she is not a very charming and
likable persom, every opportunity to make a new friend may thrown away because
the person doesn't have confidence to present themselves in an interesting way
or the person may misinterpret another's neutral body language as a negative
signal during a conversation.

2) Experience is the best teacher. Experience etches things into our
subconscious. If negativity is etched in our brains then it takes a strong
conscious effort to over turn it. This can potentially scary because the
effort to experience a positive outcome may result is us being beat down
further. But we have to see it for what it is, one experience, the next may
end differently. Overcoming depression requires concious effort, hope and
resiliencey. This is not something that happens overnight.

------
mirimir
That seems reasonable to me. I've often found optimism in others to be
foolish. And for bipolar me, extreme optimism is a sign of hypomania.

But there's a lot more to depression than seeing the world realistically.
There's a tendency to feel inadequate, hopeless and disempowered. And there's
more to that than seeing oneself and ones capabilities realistically.

One aspect is failing to break out huge problems into manageable pieces.

~~~
wildduck
While this is valid view. It is a view. Language can be used to describe
reality or to create it.

>That seems reasonable to me. I've often found optimism in others to be
foolish.

"Stay hungry, stay foolish",- Steve Job's commencement speech at Stanford.

Sometime foolishness is what make a difference. It is really all about timing
and context.

~~~
bigred100
My basic understanding is that Steve Jobs was a manipulative, mentally ill
child abuser who gets a pass because he made the iPod. Everyone has their own
perspective, but I’d rather not be those things than do them and make a
difference by manufacturing popular consumer goods. But this is of course not
an argument for depression.

------
osdiab
This statement is way too sweeping... Some forms of pessimism probably reflect
that, I'm an optimistic, not-depressed person who sees things that way - but I
know plenty of often-depressed people who fail to see their circumstances
clearly, and spiral because as a result of it.

Friend: "I'm such a failure and my future is definitely going to be horrible!"

Me: "So, who's judging you as a failure, why does such judgments even matter,
and how exactly do you have no options or influence over your future?"

I've had this dialog plenty, and it has little to do with realism.

~~~
mirimir
Right. They may be realistic about their circumstances. But they're not
realistic about their ability to transform them.

~~~
username90
Or they realistically assume that they have average ability but they have
above average expectations. Most people will have to face the reality that
they will never be special in some way, so if you aren't fine with just being
another face among the masses you will be depressed. Or someone they care
about just died, their expectations was that they would have this person for
most of their life is now broken and nothing they can do can fix this, unless
they believe in spirits and ghosts and ouija boards of course.

~~~
mirimir
It's my operating hypothesis that people's abilities are generally limited
mainly by their ways of being. Except for the few with physical and
biochemical disabilities. And with general human limitations.

I mean, we're all familiar with "math anxiety". And the argument that women
have generally been conditioned to think that they're bad at math. Or bad at
spatial reasoning. Or that men are less empathetic, or better with tools, or
whatever.

Consider scientific thinking. Based on my admittedly limited experience with
young children, I believe that they're all scientists. For children in the
"why phase", when I've actually taken time to help them consider how one might
answer their questions, I've consistently been impressed.

Also, it's clearly not so much about having answers. Indeed, focusing too much
on answers tends to stifle creativity.

------
kdmccormick
> The people most likely to experience depressive realism? Introverts, males,
> and people with high IQs

I cringe every time I see Vice on the front page. To be "depressively
realistic", I think they care less about scientific accuracy, and more about
making their introverted, male, mildly-depressed audience feel smart.

~~~
nerdponx
I just cringe whenever I see Vice linked anywhere. They've gone from being a
great source of raw and "outsider" news to being an edgy rag.

------
hn_throwaway_99
I see this as sort of the main riddle (or catch-22 if you're the pessimistic
type) of life. The semi-unrealistic hope of optimism is what motivates us to
get things done.

For the HN crowd, consider startup founders. The vast majority of startups
fail, yet virtually all founders go into it overestimating their chances of
success. After all, if they were realistic about their chances, they'd find
the whole business too crazy to begin with.

~~~
gfs78
Most startup founders are rich, they are just gambling with some money they
have. Akin to a salaried worker gambling a small amount of their salary in a
night at the casino.

~~~
shijie
Do you have any references for most startup founders being rich? Qualitatively
this does not align with my experiences at all with almost any founder of a
company I’ve ever met. Almost all of them risked everything.

~~~
gfs78
I didn´t meant Gates or Jobs rich but wealthier than average. For them an
startup is just a gamble they can afford to do comfortably.

For example: a couple of months ago I talked to a guy that was trying to
decide between founding an startup or going to India to study yoga/meditation
for a year (and he was not going to travel on the cheap, believe me). For him
failing meant going back to work in his fathers company for a while until he
gets motivated to start some other company again (or quit an go to India).

Way above most people possibilities.

------
psychoslave
Let's be realistic: there are only humans with subjective narrow view of the
world out there. And whoever will tell you that you are more/less realistic
than some other category of people are judging you by their own narrow opinion
of what is the ultimate-true-real-reality™.

I hope this helped you to feel more depressed.

~~~
etrautmann
So the flat earthers are just as tuned into reality as the rest of us?

~~~
brlewis
I use their model of reality all the time when arranging things in my house.
Like Newton's formulae it works well in certain contexts, even though Einstein
proved Newton wrong.

~~~
mfoy_
This is a bad analogy that makes it sound like you're defending flat-earthers.

It's like saying you use Hermeticism's Principle of Rhythm to build a
pendulum-powered clock...

And unlike both Flat-Earth theory and Hermetics, Newton was actually
demonstrably _right_. Flat-earthers and Hermeticists spin their theories out
of whole cloth.

~~~
ModelTheorist12
The shape of the Earth is just a model [1] - an approximation. All models have
margins of error. All models are wrong, some are useful [2]. The map is not
the territory [3]. All scientific models are scale variant [4] e.g contextual.

Scientific models are pragmatic at best. Useful for a particular purpose
within some domain of applicability

When last did you take the curvature of the Earth into account when arranging
your furniture?

Of course, you can always dismiss my perspective as "Just another nihilistic,
depressed anti-realist"

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-
dependent_realism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-dependent_realism)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation)

[4]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_invariance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_invariance)

~~~
username90
> When last did you take the curvature of the Earth into account when
> arranging your furniture?

I don't do that, but neither do I assume that the entire earth is flat just
because my living room is. Saying that all theories are born equal is
nonsense, some things are more correct than others.

~~~
ModelTheorist12
It doesn't matter what we SAY about the shape of the Earth though, does it?

It only matters how we use/apply those theories in practice.

Practical errors have consequences. Theoretical errors don't. It's just lip
service without follow-through.

I can SAY that the Earth is triangular and nothing will happen. Q.E.D If you
insist that it is in (some way) wrong or incorrect for me to say that the
Earth is triangular. Well. The best I can do is to tell you to mind your own
business.

I can't remember the last time the Earth's shape mattered to my practical,
decision-making process.

~~~
psychoslave
>I can't remember the last time the Earth's shape mattered to my practical,
decision-making process.

Did you use a GPS lately?

[http://www.astronomy.ohio-
state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps....](http://www.astronomy.ohio-
state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html)

~~~
tim333
I imagine flat earthers use GPS too and rationalise it somehow.

~~~
ModelTheorist12
No different to "round-earthers" using technology which uses "flat earth" as a
simplifying assumption in the design (hello! Google Maps).

Neither party seems to want to acknowledge that the other party's model works
just fine within its domain of applicability.

~~~
psychoslave
>Neither party seems to want to acknowledge that the other party's model works
just fine within its domain of applicability.

There are two very different points here.

Yes you can make most of your daily actions with a "flat earth" model.
Actually, this is even an overkill model for most daily actions. A first
person video game generally don't include such a model, so you can extrapolate
that a "sight sized box model" is enough, and that any concept of earth is
superfluous.

Then you have the part of you that seek to find a model of the world through
concordant items of evidence, be it for practical reasons or simply for the
matter of trying to make sense out of them.

You can _use_ a GPS without any specific opinion on physical models. But you
won't even send a satellite in space with an attitude stuck into a "my flat
earth model is true" belief. That doesn't mean physical models that are used
to put satellite on orbits are true, but at least they proved accurate enough
to lead to that kind of exploits.

------
buboard
Could it be that people who see the world Realistically, get depressed?

~~~
wolfgke
> Could it be that people who see the world Realistically, get depressed?

This fits my experience quite well.

To give a software development analogy:

The more you learn about deep, esoteric details of various parts of computers
(i.e. you get to see computers more realistically than idealized), the more
depressed you get about the current state of software development. And yes,
late at night, I often work privately on how to improve this situation - but I
talk to a brick wall.

~~~
kharak
Could you give an example? What's depressing about the current world of
software?

~~~
wolfgke
> What's depressing about the current world of software?

For example the insanity that it is impossible to understand what actually
happens below the surface. The ideal that I have in the back of my mind is
that a highly gifted person who can afford to spend a few years of intensive
study can really understand each individual line/byte of code that gets
executed on the computer (i.e. all of the software that runs on it)
completely.

\---

An interesting lecture by Jonathan Blow:

Jonathan Blow - Preventing the Collapse of Civilization

> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW-
> SOdj4Kkk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW-SOdj4Kkk)

\---

Also read some texts of Alan Kay's STEPS project:

For a well-readable overview, consider
[https://blog.regehr.org/archives/663](https://blog.regehr.org/archives/663)

Some progress reports:

>
> [http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2007008_steps.pdf](http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2007008_steps.pdf)

>
> [http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011004_steps11.pdf](http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011004_steps11.pdf)

Lots of additional papers about STEPS (and other topics):
[http://www.vpri.org/writings.php](http://www.vpri.org/writings.php)

(I want to make it clear that I consider what came out of the STEPS project to
be very disappointing :-( ).

~~~
kharak
I had this sentiment quit often in the beginning of my career. Now, I simply
realize that my lack of understanding crosses every single piece of technology
there is. Fridge? No idea. Cars? Well, I can drive it almost as well as I can
open a fridge, everything else is magic. How about bicycle? That's easy,
right? Well, I challenge you to just now sit down and write a detailed
schematic, describing everything that is needed to make a bicycle what it is.
Extra points if you can explain why driving on two wheels actually works out.

I know nothing about anything and almost don´t care anymore. The last bit of
wanting to understand is bathed the absurdity of it all.

Thanks for the links, sounds interesting.

~~~
cr0sh
I'll take up the challenge:

Fridge - well, the standard compressor powered refrigeration system is
essentially a heat moving system. What we are doing is moving heat from the
inside of the system (which is insulated and mostly "isolated" from the
outside of the system) to the outside of the system. This is why you can't
cool your house by opening your refrigerator's door, because the heat from the
inside of the fridge is moved to the "outside" (the room it is in) -
eventually, it would reach equilibrium (and the compressor would probably be
overheated). So anyhow, how does this work?

Well - basically by compression and expansion.

A working fluid (the refrigerant - usually a gas in the low-pressure state,
and a fluid in the high pressure state) is compressed using a compressor. This
turns the gas into its fluid state, and also heats up the gas. It is moved
(via the compressor) thru coils on the inside (insulated) of the system, where
it is allowed to expand.

Note that in this system there is also a series of check valves and such to
prevent the fluid and gas from "moving backwards" in the system; there are
also stages where the gas and fluid exist at the same time (like a fizzy drink
if you could see it).

During this expansion, it absorbs heat and it also gains volume (turns from a
fluid back into a gas). It continues to move (with it's heat content) from the
insulated side of the system (inside) to the outside of the system, where it
goes thru other coils (radiator), usually with a fan or other cooling system
blowing over them to remove the excess heat from them, before the gas goes
back to the compressor to be compressed and turned into a fluid again - to
begin the cycle anew.

That's the basics of how a refrigerator work. Now - usually, if there's a
freezer section, the freezer is where the heat exchange really happens, and
cold air from the freezer is periodically circulated from the freezer to the
refrigerator portion to keep that side at a cooler temperature.

Air conditioners work the same way - except the "inside" is the house and the
outside is...the outdoors. Heat pumps can run in reverse, so to warm your
house, heat is moved from the "outside" to the inside of the house, by the
very same process (even when it is "freezing" outside - there is still a ton
of heat energy available).

This cycle can also be done with heat alone, provided you have a working fluid
(refrigerant) which is liquid at the "outside" temperature (under whatever
pressure the liquid is at); add a check valve, heat the liquid up, it will
expand and turn into a gas, feed it into the insulated part of the system to
absorb more heat and then into some outside coils to be cooled down and turned
back into a liquid. You can make a fridge where the refrigerant is gasoline
(petrol) if you so wanted to. Ammonia is another alternative. LPG can also be
used like this, too.

That's basically how a propane or solar powered refrigerator works (I won't go
into how dark-sky refrigeration works, suffice to say it is another form of
"solar" refrigeration, more of a "backwards" method).

Car? Well - a four-cycle engine is basically this: suck (intake), squeeze
(compression), bang (ignition/power), blow (exhaust). Also, for an engine to
run, you need fuel, spark, and air - miss any of those (or wrong timing or
proportions) things won't work. I won't go into further detail - I really
could, I'm sure you can see.

Suffice to say - I could also describe that bicycle very exactly, how it
works, how it is steered (the whole "turn in the opposite direction of the
lean" thing...), etc.

I've got a ton of this crap shoved into my head; I relish learning new stuff
all the time, no matter what it is. Sometimes (most of the time) I don't
absorb it all in one shot. But I usually retain enough of it to be able to
understand more a second and third time around. Some things I will probably
never fully understand (higher math is my bane, though I try - also, I'll
probably never understand chemistry or biology on anything more than a
superficial level), but that doesn't keep them from my interest.

Why am I like this? Not sure, I've always been a very curious and inquisitive
person since I was a child. I've found that having these tidbits and more of
knowledge and such socked away has helped me make connections and analogies in
other areas, to solve problems - and sometimes raise other questions, which
just leads me down another rabbit hole at times.

As you can tell - take me to a library and I could easily get lost for hours.
Don't get me started on any of the warrens available on the internet (or the
internet itself for that matter)...

~~~
kharak
Just finished the Youtube talk on degrading technology / knowledge. Really
liked that perspective, although I disagree with quit a bit of Jonathan Blows
points.

About the challenge: I had the feeling, that you and a good chunk of readers
here could go explain good deal of it all. But my point goes further: We all
hit the wall of understanding sooner or later and all what is truly required
is to know how use the technology. And that's exactly the same in information
technology. I use databases daily. Do I know how they work? A bit, just enough
for work and that is all what is needed. That's why I like to disagree with
Jonathan Blow. Some people abstracted a great deal of complexity away, because
it's simply irrelevant. As a result, we've seen an explosion in tech, just not
in the nieces where he's looking. The modern ecosystem in tech is the normal
way of economics, where everyone specializes him or herself further and
further, understanding the specific domain better at the cost of everything
else. Today, the average Joe can code as a result of all this simplifications.
But Jonathan Blow compares the elites of coding, people who build engines,
with Joe. That's misunderstanding what has happened, the level of analysis is
wrong. Also, people like John Carmack are not gone, they simply work on new
problems.

And as you mentioned yourself, there is so much technology surrounding you
that you have no idea of how it works, like chemistry. Still, you use it to
your benefit because other people who know this stuff simplified its use. And
not just for you and me, also for other chemist, like coder for other coders.

Now a bit of a rand, skip it if you like: The school system, including
university, killed so much of my curiosity, it's insane. I had to learn so
much bullshit that I'm almost glad for one of my least great attributes, my
bad memory. Because there was really no point remembering most of it. It's
just too bad that I can't control my own garbage collector. Last year, I
learned a great deal about machine learning (again, as I did it in college,
too) and now can remember almost nothing. Despite really enjoying the course
and throwing myself into it. What I don't use, I forget and of course I use
only a tiny bit of skills and knowledge at work. I'm not happy with the way it
is, but it simply is. I also learned so much about databases and liked that
subject, but the only thing I really retain is what I use in my work.

That brings me to my final thought tidbit: My brain obsesses with ideas that
you would put more in the category of philosophy. It's what you think about
when you have nothing to do or start daydreaming that's probably where your
brain is best at. I never asked people in tech what they think about in those
moments. I'm really, really curious about the answer.

~~~
wolfgke
> My brain obsesses with ideas that you would put more in the category of
> philosophy. It's what you think about when you have nothing to do or start
> daydreaming that's probably where your brain is best at. I never asked
> people in tech what they think about in those moments. I'm really, really
> curious about the answer.

My experience with these is: I often think that I have some deep mathematical
insight. The problem with these insights is that they "partly right" \- they
are often based on a good mathematical intuition of mine. But unluckily the
mathematical research typically has come a lot farther than my insight - i.e.
my insight is actually a really old hat in mathematical research.

So instead of daydreaming about some clever mathematical insight of yours,
better cram advanced math textbooks - they will teach you a lot more than what
you will ever come up with by daydreaming.

~~~
kharak
For sure. Study the literature of your subject. The point is, what do you
think about automatically when you don't focus on a specific task? My
expectation is, that people who are great at what they do continue to think
and daydream about their work. When I read about philosophy (or related
subjects), I'm continuing to think about it for days or weeks. That doesn't
happen with tech, although that's my daily business.

------
hprotagonist
see terry pratchett’s definition for “knurd”:
[https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Knurd](https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Knurd)

 _Consider the following scale:

Being drunk is to be intoxicated by alcohol to such an extent as to be unable
to perceive the world clearly through the senses.

Being sober is to be able to perceive the world clearly through the senses,
yet humans are quite capable of giving themselves illusions and little stories
to make life more bearable.

Being knurd is to be (un)intoxicated with Klatchian Coffee to such an extent
that all such comfort stories are stripped away from the mind.

This makes you see the world in a way 'nobody ever should', in all its harsh
reality.

People generally find being knurd excruciating, as their comfortable illusions
are stripped away and all of life's terrors are exposed._

~~~
mamon
I'm pretty sure that what Pratchett calls "knurd" here, Buddists call
"enlightenment".

~~~
monktastic1
The Buddhists certainly wouldn't agree that enlightenment is "excruciating."
To the contrary, that's what a mind experiences when it's on the brink of
awakening but can't let go of the fundamental illusion of 'self.'

------
VvR-Ox
Why am I not surprised?

The world is really going down right now and just following news what's going
on is reason enough to cry like a baby or lose it completely.

That's one of the main reasons why many people take drugs - it helps to forget
what's happening around us and it makes us numb enough to stop feeling the
constant pain when we think about the things happening to our brothers and
sisters who aren't lucky enough to be born in the right place, to have the
right parents or live in the "right" place etc.

Too much information on how the people are screwed every minute may be reason
enough to be depressed if you don't shut those thoughts out in the long run.

~~~
gfodor
I hate to break it to you, but if the news is affecting your mental health you
should realize that that is by design. The world may or may not be in a good
state of affairs in an absolute sense, but it is better than it has ever been,
and insofar as the news seems worse now than in the past, that has more to do
with those in charge of the news media and their incentives and biases than
actual changes in the state of the world getting worse.

~~~
VvR-Ox
You are absolutely right about the design of the news but despite this very
bad things are happening (just the facts).

Let me bring in some of those facts:

1\. "25.9 million refugees globally -- the highest level ever recorded"
according to Amnesty International ([https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-
do/refugees-asylum-seeker...](https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/refugees-
asylum-seekers-and-migrants/global-refugee-crisis-statistics-and-facts/))

2\. "Global emissions increased from 2 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide in
1900 to over 36 billion tonnes 115 years later"
([https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-other-greenhouse-gas-
emis...](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-other-greenhouse-gas-emissions))

3\. "Plastic in the oceans" ([https://ourworldindata.org/where-does-plastic-
accumulate](https://ourworldindata.org/where-does-plastic-accumulate))

4\. "52.4 percent decline in sperm concentration and a 59.3 percent decline in
total sperm counts from 1973 to 2011 for men in the West"
([https://www.researchgate.net/blog/post/sperm-counts-in-
the-w...](https://www.researchgate.net/blog/post/sperm-counts-in-the-western-
world-have-declined-nearly-60-percent-since-the-1970s))

Ok I will stop it right here but of course there are many more tendencies that
would speak against a too optimistic view on the world at the moment in my
opinion.

Of course there is enough media, drugs and be-happy-every-day-mantras etc. to
disturb your thoughts and allow to ignore all this.

------
patcon
This reminds me of this amazing TED Talk:

Do we see reality as it is? (Donald Hoffman, cognitive scientist)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYp5XuGYqqY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYp5XuGYqqY)

The intellectual bomb in the video is this:

Organisms that perceive only "fitness" drive to extinction all organisms that
perceive reality as it is. (in model systems simulating environments and
creatures navigating them)

My take: at every level, it would seem, perceiving true reality is not
favoured. Nevermind cognitive biases, that's just one level. Literally the
fabric of the universe: spacetime, matter, language, etc. It means nothing
that it might feel comfortable or intuitive -- we should question it all.

~~~
wazoox
And Jordan Peterson turned this on its head by pretending that what is fitting
is the truth :)

~~~
patcon
ah interesting. thanks! I hear a ton about him (he lives in my city), but i
didn't realize that the above was one of the cruxes of his philosophy...!

------
Dowwie
Take a moment and consider this quote by the late Amos Tversky about his view
on pessimism:

"When you are a pessimist and the bad thing happens, you live it twice,' Amos
liked to say. 'Once when you worry about it, and the second time when it
happens."

This is a rational explanation for why anyone ought not succumb to pessimism.

~~~
reportgunner
This is not black and white. Often we are optimist and we ignore the suffering
of the ones closest to us because we simply don't believe they are suffering.

~~~
Funes-
That doesn't have anything to do with being optimistic, as far as I can tell.
Dismissing others' suffering is caused by a lack of empathy or by selfishness
--the two go hand in hand. It can certainly _seem_ to a depressed person that
an optimistic one is oblivious to their suffering, but it is not always the
case. I think the best you can do with negative people is make it absolutely
clear that you acknowledge their pain while getting them to progressively come
out of it.

~~~
michaelt
If another person's internal mental state isn't visible, so we have to work it
out from things that are visible, there might be a wide range of possible
guesses and so being optimistic or pessimistic might produce very different
results.

Has my friend Joe stopped coming out with us because he's busy with a great
new girlfriend he just hasn't told us about yet - or because depression means
he can barely get out of bed in the morning let alone leave the house?

------
reportgunner
> _In fact, "some psychologists concede that an element of self-deception may
> be necessary for well-being," Feltham says._

I think about this every day, I thought it was an established fact for some
reason. Perhaps I thought it was established since I know the saying "
_ignorance is bliss_ "

~~~
fsloth
I'm not sure if self-deception is the correct word. People cannot fit much in
their heads. There is too much good and too much evil in the world for a
single person to truly percieve. I don't think it's self deception if one
tries to focus on good things. It becomes self deception if a person thinks
the world is completely good because all they see are good things, though.

~~~
benj111
Self deception seems reasonable.

Most drivers rate themselves as above average, when in reality only about half
are.

I'm sure most people view themselves as nice, reasonable people. The presence
of idiots should indicate they aren't all correct.

I know that I'm an attractive guy, who makes extremely well reasoned arguments
on the internet, unfortunately it's everyone else that isn't enlightened
enough to appreciate my true genius.

I suppose you could file it under cognitive dissonance, self deception seems
reasonable too.

------
igammarays

      Illusion in the spirit is as nothing,
      behold a world that runs on illusions!
    
      Their war and peace are made upon illusion,
      their glory and their shame are from illusion.
    

\- Rumi [1]

[1] [https://bit.ly/31jwRUb](https://bit.ly/31jwRUb)

~~~
dawg-
Just beautiful. We have our Baudrillard and The Matrix and think we are so
different, modern, cutting edge, living in a 21st century hyperreality. Rumi
saw it 800 years ago!

------
harimau777
How do you guys think this relates to Cognitive Therapy? What I mean is:

My father was a therapist and a big advocate of the idea that people can be
happy regardless of their circumstances and that emotion comes primarily from
what someone thinks. There's a lot of truth in that, and it seems clear that
Cognitive Therapy is an important treatment for depression.

However, he sometimes seemed to de-emphasize the importance of circumstances.
For example, he was opposed to the idea that moving to a different part of the
country could make someone happier. However, doesn't that ignore that fact
that different places have different rates of depression and suicide?

~~~
aianus
I read that moving to somewhere sunny like Southern California was several
times more effective for depression than SSRIs.

------
pknopf
People may think I'm depressed, but I'm the polar opposite.

I'm always discussing what it means to be depressed, only in an effort to find
what is the will to live. I find it interesting.

"When driving on the interstate, each driver has the power, with the flick of
a wrist, to end it all. But they don't. Why not? What prevents people from
flicking? What's worth living for?"

My wife wants me to stop talking like that, because she fears I will be
vacaracted.

I feel like you can always get a better perspective on things by swimming in
the deep end. It's always good to stir your inner stew.

~~~
Kye
There's a comic somewhere depicting the two views of nihilism.

One frame is all dreary and dark with the caption "Nothing really matters"
over a sad character. The other is happy and upbeat with flowers and rainbows
over the same, much happier character with the same caption.

It sounds like you lean more toward the latter and choose to make your own
meaning rather than embrace one of the common sources of meaning.

That's how I try to see the world. I don't understand how people find meaning
in traditional sources like religion, family, or work, so I set out to find my
own. Nonjudgmentally, of course. I respect the classics even if I favor avant-
garde purposecraft.

~~~
pknopf
I'd love it if you could find that comic!

~~~
Kye
I can't find it, but xkcd also had a take on it.

[https://xkcd.com/167/](https://xkcd.com/167/)

~~~
tim333
There are a few like that on the web eg

[https://66.media.tumblr.com/f2cfd1111f36dc195ab9e6aefc239faa...](https://66.media.tumblr.com/f2cfd1111f36dc195ab9e6aefc239faa/tumblr_p4shg2RaSK1r25vsmo1_400.png)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/nihilism/comments/b22xg0/may_i_offe...](https://www.reddit.com/r/nihilism/comments/b22xg0/may_i_offer_you_a_glass_of_optimistic_nihilism/)

------
cowb0yl0gic
"Terror Management suggests that human nature is actually wired towards self-
deception: In order to avoid facing terrifying concepts like death, most of us
live in a state of self-delusion." I very early on in life recognized this as
a primary principle of human psychology. As soon as we begin to understand the
concept of death, we unconsciously develop this as our primary defense
mechanism. It's what all religious and spiritual belief systems are founded
on.

~~~
29athrowaway
I think the mind is constantly trying to avoid death, and when we learn death
cannot be avoided we come up with "solutions" like an afterlife,
reincarnation...

------
zarro
Define "Realistically". Also define "desirability". You could make equally
strong arguments both ways.

Example: If you are depressed you are more likely to focus on input data that
is 'negative' and overlook the 'positive' data. For instance if your
depressed, instead of focusing on the different ways people are trying to
improve the conditions of existence, you could focus on "the shitty conditions
in india/africa/china/etc.) You could say this is more "realistic".

Example: If you are optimistic on the other hand, you could say to yourself, I
have no control over those variables that make the world 'shitty', let me try
and focus on the variables that make the world 'positive' and see if I can
affect them, so that the world as a whole can be more "positive". Some could
say this is "unrealistic".

Which is more "desirable" I would argue the latter, but I hope the argument
has shown that these are value judgements subjective to the individual.

------
setgree
> It may be tied to certain other psychological theories, like the terror
> management theory, Feltham says. Terror Management suggests that human
> nature is actually wired towards self-deception: In order to avoid facing
> terrifying concepts like death, most of us live in a state of self-delusion.
> And maybe, when we're depressed, we're just less likely to be deceived.

For what it's worth, Terror Management Theory has pretty much failed to
replicate: [https://psyarxiv.com/dkg53/](https://psyarxiv.com/dkg53/) ("Failed
pre-registered replication of mortality salience effects in traditional and
novel measures")

Just one study, whole theory doesn't depend on one replication attempt, etc.
-- but the baseline rate for a set of social psych findings being legit should
probably be <50% at the outset.

------
mapcars
More realistically than what? What is a criteria for realism?

>we tend to operate under happy delusions that lift away when we're depressed

Well this brings unhappy delusions in the same way. Just that it matches more
with therapists world view and called "more real"?

------
blue_devil
It's important to understand that realism is an "interpretation" stage. Before
we get there, we selectively _attend_ to and process stimuli. It is at this
attention stage, and usually for (personally) emotional stimuli that
depression can affect the things which we "see" (attend to).

Biases in attention and interpretation in adolescents with varying levels of
anxiety and depression
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02699931.2017.1...](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02699931.2017.1304359)

------
_def
What most people describe as "realism" is often just a depressive view.
There's always two sides of a coin, realistic or not. What seems "real" to you
depends on which side you spend most of your time.

------
edoo
Correlation is not necessarily causation. Unless they have scienced the
causation it might be quite possible for people who see the world more
realistically to be at greater risk for depression.

~~~
reportgunner
Well put, I thought about the same thing but I was not able to formulate it
like this.

------
kempbellt
Being "realistic" is often linked to depressive mindsets because it focuses on
how things _are_ , and lacks the imagination for how things _can be_.

A depressed mindset says, "There's no good food in the house", and focuses on
this as a negative fact.

An imaginative mindset says, "No good food. Time to go grocery shopping".

The first is simply "realistic". The later is realistic, and imagines a
solution to the realistic problem.

------
distant_hat
What this means is that being realistic is maladaptive at least at a species
level.

------
pitt1980
To the degree to which we interact with the world and create our own reality.

It's lower effort to turn a pessimistic outlook into reality than it is to
turn an optimistic outlook into reality.

I've been ready the Wayside School books to my daughter for bedtime recently,
the character Kathy demonstrates this pretty well.

From [https://wayside-
school.fandom.com/wiki/Kathy_(book_chapter)](https://wayside-
school.fandom.com/wiki/Kathy_\(book_chapter\)) :

"The chapter opens by mentioning that Kathy doesn't like you, and that you are
the stupidest person she doesn't know. She also thinks you are the ugliest
person she doesn't know, and she doesn't know a lot of people. Even the people
she does know she doesn't like. She thinks D.J. smiles too much and hates John
because he can't stand on his head.

After the introduction, the chapter talks about a time Kathy had a pet cat
named Skunks. She was afraid he would run away, but Mrs. Jewls told her that
he would stay as long as Kathy took good care of him, and remembered to give
him plenty of food and water. However, Kathy thought Mrs. Jewls was wrong, and
to keep Skunks around, locked him in a closet, sometimes even forgetting to
take care of him. One day when Kathy was looking for her other shoe, Skunks
ran out and never came back. Kathy bragged to Mrs. Jewls, claiming that she
was right all along, and tells her that next time she gets a cat, she'll kill
him so he never runs away.

Afterwards it talks about a time Dameon was trying to teach Kathy how to play
catch. Kathy complains that she'll just get hurt, but Dameon states that as
long as she keeps her eyes on the ball, everything will be okay. However,
worrying that she'll be hurt in advance, she closes her eyes and the ball
lands in her face. She claims that Dameon was wrong and she was right as she
runs away sobbing.

Allison thinks that if she is nice to Kathy, Kathy might be nice to her in
return, so she bakes her a cookie. Kathy however, thinks it will taste
terrible because Allison made it, so she keeps the cookie in her desk. Three
weeks later, she decides to eat the cookie, which is now stale and dusty, and
as expected, hates it. Kathy says that she was right about Allison's cookie,
then the chapter cuts back to narration, explaining that Kathy thought she had
very good reasons for hating everyone in Mrs. Jewls's class, alongside a very
good reason for hating you. She knows that if you met her, you would hate her
too, and already knows she's right. The chapter ends by saying it's weird how
someone can always be right and still be wrong."

------
dejawu
As someone with depression, this has been my experience as well. When I'm
depressed I feel like I'm seeing the world for what it really is, and that the
times when I was happy was when I was deluded. When I started antidepressants,
I was frustrated that they noticeably made me less lucid and totally unable to
introspect. Even now that I've found what I consider to be a good combination
and dosage of medications that's letting me be happy and function well, I
fully admit that the mechanism by which they're affective is that they make me
less aware, slightly more forgetful, and therefore less able to ruminate on
all the "truths" that would make me depressed. I'm not thrilled about that but
I chalk it up as a worthwhile compromise for being able to live well.

------
BasDirks
Real_ism_ can mean passivity, and a lack of creation. If seeing things as they
are means paralysis, how does it help us? Not being realistic can help make
things happen.

I think it can be valuable to see things realistically, and then rejecting
what you see.

~~~
chha
Not being realistic can also mean that you are creative on false premises, and
that the result might fail because of it. By being realistic about the world
and the environment surrounding you be it work-, political-, economical- or
otherwise you can see actual problems plaguing others, and _maybe_ you can
generate something that solves a tiny part of what people struggle with.

------
Noos
How can you go from "we set up a very simple experiment that shows that
depressed people can tell more if someone is controlling a light" to
"depressed people see the world more realistically?"

------
jammygit
The studies seem flawed in a very obvious way

> If you set up a circumstance where there's no relationship between the
> button and the light, depressed patients might be able to better pick that
> out, because that set of circumstances happens to conform to their somewhat
> biased view of the universe, that bad things happen for no reason," Moore
> explains. "That doesn't necessarily mean that they're more accurate broadly,
> but under that very narrow set of stimulus conditions, they come out looking
> more accurate.

------
bryanmgreen
There's a fine line between "depressive" and "realistic" viewpoints.

But yes, in my experience rose-tinted glasses generally also come with a
narrower field-of-view.

------
perseusprime11
Adding some context that came from living with a person who suffered from
depression. I am not sure if they see the world more realistically or more
negatively. They are generally stuck in a cycle and need to get out of the
cycle of feelings influencing actions and reverse this cycle by CBT. The
negative cycle creates delusion which is exactly the opposite of reality. They
view the world in a very cynical way and won't let go of past.

------
fallingfrog
To my mind, depression is basically a feeling of being _powerless_. When lab
researchers want to see if a mouse is depressed, they pick it up by the tail.
The normal mice struggle, however uselessly, the depressed ones just hang
there.

In my experience though, The worst is being powerless and not knowing why. If
you can gain understanding of the world, even though your situation might not
change right away, it still helps.

------
throw51319
Yeah when you're depressed you definitely are more realistic about the
challenges you/the world faces.

But, you are in a state of fear where you are over-exagerrating the things you
could lose.

In a happy state or happy manic state, you don't overvalue these things. You
accept the fleeting nature of moments moving on, and this frees you up to make
bolder choices.

It's all a spectrum of how bold you want to be in your life and day to day.

------
paulluuk
> Put people in a room and ask them to push a button

> It seems like the button is doing something, but actually it's not attached
> to anything

> Ask people if they felt like they had any effect on the world

> Depressed people say "nothing I do matters", non-depressed people say "Well,
> I'm not sure, but there might be some effect, yeah"

"DEPRESSED PEOPLE SEE THE WORLD MORE REALISTICALLY"

------
mehdix
One can see the world more realistically without being depressed. Depression
IMHO isn't necessarily a byproduct of a pessimistic worldview. If anything,
nihilism (if we consider it a pessimistic worldview) had helped me to be more
realistic. To accept that there is no intrinsic meaning in my life. If
anything, it has brought me down to earth.

~~~
raxxorrax
Not every form of depression is pathological. I think our current culture
doesn't really provide many avenues to express sadness, so people probably
don't tell the truth when they have doubt. And doubt is an uninvited guest for
business.

Not directly applicable to the article though, that is probably a completely
different effect.

------
4b11b4
Had a realization the other day that: "almost everyone around me is actually
very sick".

This world we have created tends to encourage people to eventually become
sick: whether it be diet, emotional, spiritual, physical, etc.

When we look around, we to have a positive outlook.

It's easy to see that a plant is not doing very well. We aren't very good at
seeing this in humans.

------
seamyb88
The depressive episode I suffered and recovered from was not me thinking
realistically. With the way the world is at the minute, if you're not angry
then you haven't been paying attention. But anger and realism are not the same
as clinical, psychological, physically unexplained depression.

------
mhrefat
That's right, because when you are depressed,you will be aware to make new
friends, you will judge them by reality, and any situation you will face, you
will judge it by reality. Emotion doesn't work that much for depressed people.

~~~
paulluuk
It depends on whether you're talking about actually depressed people, or
people just "feeling a bit down". It seems like you're referring to the
latter.

Depression is a very serious medical condition, often leading to suicide, and
involves mostly just sleeping, crying in bed, and not wanting to do or see
anything.

------
k__
Yes. The problem is, when you're not always depressed.

You feel good, get too optimistic, things don't work out because you
underestimated everything aaand you're back to being depressed.

------
m0zg
As a former sufferer, the headline is pretty dangerous, IMO. It'd be more
correct to say that such people see _some aspects_ of the world more
realistically, while others are totally bent out of shape. E.g. anything
related to optimism and self-worth is totally out of whack: even if the person
can _logically_ conclude there are reasons for optimism and non-zero self-
worth, they still don't _feel_ like it's true.

So it's dangerous to suggest that their lack of optimism and self-worth is
"realistic" in any way, because it never is.

------
leowoo91
That might be true. As a person who always find himself between dark and
winning days, I started to wonder if something in middle could be achieved.

------
Marinlemaignan
This article being on the front page seems to mean a lot for our industry....

------
Wildgoose
Reminds me of an old definition:

"A pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist".

------
choiway
Realistically, it might be that realism is the cause of depression.

------
tempsy
Is "realistically" synonymous with nihilism...?

------
kissgyorgy
I can confirm that.

------
agumonkey
This makes me very uncomfortable to say the least.

------
tkidanu
Probably why we are depressed to begin with?

------
beyondcompute
So what?

Reality is for people with poor imaginations :)

------
tachion
But does it make them happier? /s

------
dwaltrip
A lot of people in this thread are justifying their own pathologies with the
title. Nothing more powerful than a story that soothes the ego.

Maybe there is some truth to the idea. I wouldn't be surprised, although we
probably can't make that general of a statement.

Either way, don't let something like this article stop you from improving your
life. One thing is for sure, we can't accurately predict all of the
possibilities for ourselves. Might as well aim for a few improvements, eh?

For what it's worth, I'm currently dealing with mild / moderate depression and
anxiety. In my opinion, it's a shit way to be and I aspire to experience less
of it in the future.

~~~
escape_goat
From the text of the article, the title ought to be "Although the idea is 40
years old, there is no conclusive proof that depressive realism exists and the
evidence suggesting that it does may be an artifact of experimental design."

I'm not actually sure what to make of this article, to be honest. The two
sources interviewed are very clear that 'depressive realism' is a poorly
supported and not particularly useful concept, but the inertia of the article
leads in the opposite direction.

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wheelerwj
well thats depressing...

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faissaloo
Perhaps if so many of us are depressed then that is the natural reaction to
the environment we have been placed in, which is why it takes some level of
delusion to be happy.

