
Ask HN: Which job should I choose? - askhell
I need to make a decision in the next 8hrs and i need help to decide which choice would be better for me and my career.<p>The first company is developing software for airline companies and they have a few big clients. The tech i would be working in is Angular, Backbone, Cordova and some PHP.<p>The second company is into IT security. They develop tools for malware detection and network security. The tech i would be using is JavaScript, jQuery and Kendo UI. I would mostly be building charts in the beginning but there is a possibility of getting a bit more into actual software development later.<p>Both companies are good standing and the pay is about the same (the IT security company is offering a little bit more). I like the tech the first company is using more, but i&#x27;m more interested in IT security than airline software.<p>Please help me decide, i have 8hrs, what would be better for my career and what branch do you think has a better future?
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gameguy43
Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet: be careful about that non-promise of
a "possibility of getting a bit more into actual software development later."

It's very easy for a company to make vague non-promises like this. Consider
how you would feel if it took 1 year or 2 years or infinite years for that
"getting a bit more into actual software development" thing to happen. Would
you quit after a year of waiting? Would you feel like you had wasted your
time?

Something to consider.

~~~
dagw
I spent 3 years at my last company waiting for the "possibility" I was
promised in the interview. Admittedly it was great job that I did enjoy the
stuff I actually was doing, but the constant waiting and hoping for that
elusive 'possibility' did gnaw at me, and heavily contributed to me quitting.

So basically my advice is to heavily discount any promises of future
possibilities and judge the job mainly by what you know you will be doing.

~~~
collyw
I turned down a job offer based on promises, over two years ago. Nothing has
happened regarding promition, hiring of more staff.

Just quit as I received another job offer, and when I asked to have "something
definite in writing" this time, then the wonderful promises vanished.

------
lisper
Flip a coin. Seriously. If you don't like the decision the coin made for you
then ignore it and do the opposite.

~~~
Schwolop
Bingo. I've also heard this sentiment expressed as "Flip a coin. While it's in
the air, your brain will be wishing for one of the sides. Pick that choice and
forget about the coin."

~~~
curun1r
The version of this that resonated with me is a quote from an otherwise-
terrible movie called "The Very Thought of You." From the best Google result I
could find:

    
    
      Pederson: "You have a decision to make...What's the problem? Bearing in mind there's no such thing as a difficult decision."
      Lawrence: "Sorry?"
      Pederson: "Well, every day we make hundreds of thousands of decisions. In a year, it runs into tens of millions. People get themselves into knots. The truth is, decisions are easy. Know why? Because every time, every time, we already know the answers."
      Lawrence: "You think?"
      Pederson: "Absolutely. Trade secret. Always tell my boys. You see, you didn't come to me to make a decision. You came to me because you didn't like the decision you'd already made."
    

I've found this to be mostly true and that once I view a tough decision
through the lens of already having made it and only needing to accept that I
don't like the decision I've made, the decision becomes a lot clearer and I'm
able to move past it.

------
Qantourisc
Consider picking based on other factors like humanity and people how you like
the people you will work with. Often this is more important then small
differences in career choice.

In terms of "career", well the airline has more stuff to add to you resume.

~~~
a3n
The airline industry is also very cyclical, which could have some bearing
depending on what you mean by "career."

------
lordnacho
My 2 cents:

\- The security job is more hardcore. It's a branch of software that you
probably will find hard to learn about on your own, with lots of little juicy
details. Airline software, I'll bet most devs could figure out how to write if
they understood the domain, and there are probably fewer pitfalls. But I'm no
expert on either.

\- Your subjective experience will depend a lot on the individual people you
meet and work with. You don't have much other than gut feeling on that.

\- Tech, I wouldn't worry. There's always going to be a whole bunch floating
around. Once you get in the zone, you can pick up a new language/framework
quite quickly.

\- Don't worry too much about your decision. It seems hard to choose, but that
probably means the outlook is similar for the two. Otherwise it wouldn't seem
hard.

~~~
mattmanser
Oh come on, he's be using javascript and kendo UI to make graphs. That's not
hardcore security programming.

That's the very antithesis of hardcore programming. Apart from tearing your
hair out at the shitty kendo API designs.

The security job sounds like a boring job to me from his description, sounds
like they'd be using him to animate a bunch of graphs on their website or
something.

OP, there's almost nothing worse in programming than making graphs.

~~~
greg_data
Graphs are fun, CHARTS are boring.

~~~
mattmanser
Haha, that's a more accurate assessment!

OP, it's so hard to know what a job is like from a tiny second hand
description, so don't take my words too literally, it might be fine and more
involved, but as someone else said in the thread:

 _there is a possibility of getting a bit more into_

Is code for:

 _we 're going to dangle this thing in front of you for a year or two and then
conveniently forget we ever said it_

------
avichal
Pick the one with better, higher quality people. In the long run what matters
most is who you surround yourself with. You'll learn more from smarter people
and become better as a result.

------
kelukelugames
I can help you make a decision.

Take a deep breath.

You will be fine. It won't matter which job you take.

~~~
askhell
lol, why?

~~~
kelukelugames
Both choices have their pros and cons. If you pick the wrong then you won't be
stuck there for long anyway. Follow your heart. Don't bother rationalizing.

~~~
shoo
it reminds me a bit of this:
[http://lesswrong.com/lw/th/harder_choices_matter_less/](http://lesswrong.com/lw/th/harder_choices_matter_less/)

------
ereyes01
IMHO, at your career stage (if I'm inferring your "career stage" correctly),
I'd consider these two possible avenues to advance your career:

\- The craft of designing and maintaining software

\- The problem domain software is being applied to

Some people might rationalize this as a generalist vs. specialist argument.
However, I see being a badass software expert as just being a certain kind of
specialist.

Both approaches will help you grow into bigger shoes over time, assuming the
most optimistic outcome in either path. If you focus on honing your software
craft, you can fit in many places and easily internalize any system as your
chops get better.

If you focus on a particular problem domain (you seem to be interested in IT
security), then over time you can become a subject matter expert. At this
point, you can contribute knowledge back to your community, use your domain
insight to identify a market and new product to sell, or just become a prized
star employee in the companies focused on your chosen problem domain.

Being an all-around software badass can also make you a prized star employee
after you grow into that notoriety.

I suppose it's possible to mix both approaches if your role accomodates this.

I guess my ultimate answer is similar to what others have said- follow what
your heart says :-) Hopefully this adds some perspective to your choice. Best
of luck!

------
mrwizrd
You might find this TED talk enlightening.

How to make hard choices - Ruth Chang
[https://youtu.be/8GQZuzIdeQQ](https://youtu.be/8GQZuzIdeQQ)

Sorry for the terrible formatting, I'm on mobile (and lazy at this time of the
morning.)

~~~
cJ0th
If this video helps you, more power to you. Personally I think her talk
reflects just her own struggle and how she somehow managed to come to terms
with it. For one thing, claiming that the kind of decisions discussed in the
video are on par is moot. Sure, for practical reason it might be helpful to
assume it. But just because we don't know a way to compute a preference
doesn't mean there isn't a way we can do it somewhere in the distant future.
But that's rather a minor nitpick. My main problem with her talk is that she
assumes that we all can be pro active individuals as opposed to drifters who
float around aimlessly. If you want to be proactive you need a goal and
setting a goal is itself a hard decision. Now according to her, comparing
goals is not going to lead to success as goals can be on par. So we need
something else that makes us finally do something. Maybe this "something else"
is not part of the rational world but we got to have it. As far as I can tell
she doesn't explain how initial motivation comes up and what to do if it is
missing. How do you become a pink socks wearing, donuts eating person? Maybe
by just drifting around?

Assuming that we possess some degree of free will I think it is best to
prevent hard choices to turn up in the first place. That probably doesn't
always work out but maybe you can shift the odds in your favor. For example,
if you start programming very early and become really good at it by the time
you have to decide for a career then your choice is (rather likely) to be
easy. You already have a marketable skill and motivation to do more (otherwise
you would have given up earlier). No vague "Let's do an MBA and see where that
leads me" feelings that ultimately lead to hard choices: Should I do
Marketing? Accounting? Something not related to my degree? The point is not to
bash MBAs here but the problem that this is one of the many paths where you
can get far without any "real" motivation. But eventually you reach a point
where motivation is key (the choice) and if you lack it the choice is going to
be hard. From a practical point of view your decision doesn't really matter
(so I sort of agree with her) but again I think that preventing hard choices
leads to better outcomes ( a happier life) than any option you may decide for
when making a hard choice (most of the time)

Anyhow, the wisest universal advice is "Don't panic!", though. In a way,
everything is ok the way it is.

------
evilotto
Two answers:

1\. Pick the one that will let you meet more people, whether as coworkers,
customers, tradeshow attendees, etc. People will be far more valuable to your
career than what frameworks you know.

2\. "When in doubt, flip a coin, because in that second it's in the air, you
realize that you already know how you want it to come down." You already know
which one you want, so why are you asking us?

------
lsiebert
It may be helpful to think about how your work for each company would look on
a resume. The company, unless it's a brand name everybody knows for it's
technology like Google, is less important then your role.

The airline company software lets you talk about full stack (don't worry if
you don't like PHP, you can always learn another stack), and maybe scaling
issues. You also get soft skills potentially, have to deal with changing
client requirements.

The IT security... well you get to do front end dev, and maybe they'll let you
do something real at some point? But maybe you get some interesting experience
integrating with APIs.

It honestly doesn't matter too much, you'll be doing dev work for both. If the
money is a big difference in your mind, it wouldn't hurt you to ask the
airline software company if they will match what the IT company offers you, or
if they can provide some other perk (a signing bonus, discount airfare, extra
vacation days).

~~~
askhell
Yes, i think the job description of the first company would look better on my
resume. But IT security is a much more interesting field to me although i
think it might be more difficult for me to find a job if i had to leave the
company after a couple of years.

Thanks for the advice.

------
eru
Flip a coin. If you resent the result, you know what you really wanted. If you
are happy with the result, you are fine, too.

------
rwallace
Both sound fine in terms of career, and you say they offer about the same pay.

The big thing you haven't mentioned is working conditions. Does either demand
unpaid overtime? Require you to work in an open plan office? Have a long
commute, particularly if it requires driving? Have a noncompete clause in the
employment contract?

If they're the same as regards working conditions, flip a coin, see how you
feel about the result, then act on that feeling.

------
barteklev
As people write, you have to decide on your own, but I can share what would I
do. First, consider technologigies. Do I like any of thechnologies more than
those in second oportunity (I assume there aren't technologies you dislike).
This is not very important though. Second, think about what company do. I'd
prefer security much more and this is very big plus. What would you do: design
or maintenance (I think we all like first more ;)). But still it is important
how the work is arranged in the company. Using scrum or chaos, what tools are
used? It's maybe 0,5 as important as second. Startups win over corpo, that's
the rule for me. People, I would choose nice, energetic team over dull corpo
crowd. In fact, I already know I wouldn't choose second anyway. :) If still in
doubt I would refuse to both and look for something better. I don't know if
you can afford, but I have better things to do than work in medicore
environment. ;) I hope this can help you a little bit, good luck!

------
perlgeek
> what would be better for my career and what branch do you think has a better
> future?

Based on your limited description, I think both would be fine your career, and
both branches will do well enough in the near future.

Questions to ask yourself:

* how much freedom do the companies offer you? How many of your own ideas can you bring in?

* are the good programmers how can mentor you at each company?

* how much does the choice of tooling affect you? That what you'll work with all the time. How fast is it going to change?

* how much does the business branch actually affect your work? If you're doing frontend development for an infosec company, you're not doing intrusion detection or the like; if you do frontend development for an airline, you won't do flight or luggage routing. My point is that it's not a given that the branch will actually influence your work very much. (It might still be, though).

* How many people will use the software you write? How much does that matter to you?

* Are there any ethical differences? Do you support the companies' values and methods?

------
Blahah
What do you know about life inside each company? About the culture there? It's
something that will affect your life day to day.

More than anything else, remember that it doesn't matter that much which you
choose. You've got two great jobs on offer, and they are just jobs - you can
leave any time if you don't like them.

~~~
askhell
From the interviews i've had it seems like the airline software company has
more experts in the field that i would be working in at the beginning. The
team i would be working in at the other company is smaller but the atmosphere
looked friendlier and they seemed a bit nicer to me.

I'm trying to gather more information about the companies, what do you think
would be a good way going about this? I'm using LinkedIn to gather info on
their employees.

------
segmondy
What about benefits? Insurance, 401k, Vacation hours? Distance to commute?
Room for growth? People you will be working?

------
askhell
Thanks to everybody for your advice. I've decided to accept the airline
software development company offer. I'm just way more interested in the
technologies they are using and as someone said it looks like in the IT
security company i would mostly be doing Kendo UI charts.

------
ofcapl_
I You feel good at these all technologies/frameworks and the salary and
location are pretty similiar in both of these companies (or You just don't
care at the moment about it) I would suggest You to take the 1. offer.

Why?

I'm a webdev and I love building websites. This company build apps using hyped
(at the moment) technologies so if something go wrong then You'll find new job
easily (I'm getting job offers which requires angular/backbone/cordova
experience all the time)

On the other hand, IT security is trending niche, which can be more stable
than web development (where market is really huge and dynamic).

But hey, in the end, it's up to You and You should choose wisely what suits
You best.

------
mosselman
Job 2 (with the security thing) sounds like nonsense. 'A bit more into actual
software development'? Also you won't be involved in any of the development it
seems. It sounds like an internship-level job.

------
alain94040
I now have enough experience to recommend that you make your decision based on
finding great people. Technology stacks and early roles matter less than
attaching yourself to a great group of individuals. That's how opportunities
arise.

Of course, it's hard to evaluate just from a few interviews. But it also works
once you are inside: make sure to find the rising stars (they may not be much
senior than you by the way). You'll learn much more and be exposed to much
greater opportunities.

------
abhishekash
Hey buddy !! i am in similar situation. I have two job offers with following :

1) Security company. good salary and facilities like transport
facility.Offering stocks. But, the company is splitting into two ( u can
surely guess the name). Big brand.

2) Talent management company offering solutions as SAAS. Nice exposure to
multi-tenant cloud infra. Higher fixed pay. Cooler work culture. Became
private from public (yes the other way round)

I am extremely confused which two ? May be suggesting me can help you find
yours.

~~~
terramars
(2) seems like obviously the right answer for you. unless you really really
love security (you crazy paranoid fucker), (1) will have extra crazy politics
and higher probability of getting stuck somewhere you didn't expect / don't
want to be. if the stock comp is really good and doesn't come with weird
strings attached then maybe (1) could be competitive. career options after
experience on "multi-tenant cloud infra" are pretty good though.

~~~
abhishekash
yeah "multi-tenant cloud infra" , is what attracting me too. thanks.

------
LukeB_UK
Based on your comments, the airline company seems like it would have the best
opportunity for personal growth. If it's early in your career, I'd go for that
one as it gives you experience working with front-end, back-end and mobile.

Edit: there's also the fact that with the security company you're starting off
making charts and maybe moving into more dev, but there's also the chance you
could get stuck making charts

------
thelittleyes
Have you made a decision? If not and you'd still like some help email me at
samuel at thelittleyes.com and let's setup a time to chat. I coach folks
through these kinds of decisions for a living. I'll give you the HN special,
no charge for the first hour, and I think we'll probably be able to get you
the clarity you need in an hour.

------
rdl
This choice has a lot to do with you yourself, about which you didn't say very
much.

Assuming both are good in terms of finance, location, etc. go with which team
you think you'd enjoy working with the most -- smartest people, most
compatible with your working style. Plan for 2-3 years.

If that's a wash, I'd take the security company.

------
eru
> I need to make a decision in the next 8hrs [...]

You probably don't. The market for programmers is hot enough right now, that
any deadline the companies might have set is probably a bluff.

Having said that, having a deadline is probably a good thing for you. Avoids
endless overthinking and procrastination.

~~~
xasos
Ah, an exploding offer:
[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html)

------
general_failure
I would join the smaller team (not smaller company). If that number is not
known, I would join the company whose interview I enjoyed more (had the
interviewers read your resume before they interviewed you? how
intelligent/relevant were their questions? and so on)

------
codezero
Don't take the advice of strangers online. Talk with your peers who know you
and know your interests the most.

If you don't have a solid peer network, go with your gut, and deal with the
consequences later.

------
cpeterso
Congratulations on two job offers!

Tech is always changing. Think about what you'd like to be working on in 5–10
years. The jobs you take now will help you "write the resume" you will need
later.

Good luck!

------
baby
If both offers seem equal to you, why not choose on the location?

EDIT: I just read it would be in the same city, but what about distance to
home? District, etc...

~~~
dagw
Yes. Don't underestimate the importance of things like commute times and
working in a nice part of town.

------
tmaly
Go for the job that gets you doing more software development right away. Life
is to short to waste it doing stuff your not interested in doing.

------
airframeng
I wouldn't focus so much on the tech as on the purpose of what you'll be
doing.

In the end, follow your gutt feeling and don't look back.

------
andyjohnson0
Don't focus on the tech/stack. Go for work that you find interesting and where
you like the company culture and people.

------
1arity
location?

it would also be ideal to get into the situation where you tell both offers
that you are considering another offer at x price and that you will take y
time to decide. then you hold the negotiation instead of feeling rushed.

sometimes the side that wants you more will come back with a bigger offer or
ask you what's meaningful for you to see if they can give you that.

~~~
askhell
EDIT: i don't wanna be giving up to much info on the companies

~~~
1arity
hey. i meant that consider the location difference in the jobs. maybe there's
a place you'd like to work in, live near or commute to over the other.

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davewasthere
Go for the one with the shortest commute. ;)

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tomp
Pick 2. It seems to offer a more specific skillset. That will allow you much
more leverage in the future.

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somberi
In most cases Choice, is always between two good things. Take one. It does not
matter which.

------
jasiek
I'd go for security, seems more interesting (to me).

------
hoodoof
You should be able to decide on your own.

------
megablast
I would pick the first, because I hate security. Everything bad and annoying
on a project and come from security requirements. Yes, I know why, but if you
aren't going to help me write the correct code, you are just putting lots of
barriers in my way.

