
North Korea makes more sense when you know its roots - curtis
http://www.vox.com/2016/1/6/10724334/north-korea-history
======
awl130
This article, and especially its title, is extremely misleading. Kim Il Sung
was a guerrilla fighter AGAINST the Japanese in northern China, winning
accolades as a part of the Chinese communist army before taking over north
Korea. Leaders of North Korea in the early days were chosen based on their
loyalty to the communist party.

It may be true that the DPRK copied items of propaganda from Japan. But to say
that the DPRK was based on imperial Japan is like saying the Nazi party was
based on the Roman Empire (from which it lifted the eagle symbol), or worse
yet, the Indo-European civilization (from which it took the swastika). Certain
design elements and terminology were probably copied, but they were taken for
practical purposes and had little to do with ideology.

~~~
mc32
Yeah, Vox is losing credibility. This explanation sounds very forced in the
face of how communism coöpted the tools of worship to retrain them on the
secular state and to some degree the cult of personality.

So, it's like they, vox, want to make this explanation work, because it's
plausible. I imagine if they put some effort into it, could find another half
dozen plausible explanations.

~~~
MrZongle2
_" Yeah, Vox is losing credibility."_

Serious question: did they ever _have_ credibility? Other than being able to
apparently fund a site and pay (?) writers, is there something else there I
just wasn't aware of?

~~~
OopsCriticality
They have none in my eyes. I used to email them pointing out simple factual
errors in their articles (i.e., stuff that a quick Google or Wiki search would
find). Never once received a response back. Almost always, there would be
silent updates to their articles correcting the errors...

I refuse to succumb to Gell-Mann Amnesia: if Vox's quality control is crap on
issues that are the small set I am informed on, then I am forced to conclude
it's crap in other areas too. Aside from the QC failures, failing to clearly
disclose the corrections strikes me as difficult to defend journalistically.

------
arafa
Some of the claims in this article are rebutted by the book A Kim Jong Il
Production ([http://www.amazon.com/Kim-Jong-Il-Production-
Extraordinary-K...](http://www.amazon.com/Kim-Jong-Il-Production-
Extraordinary-Kidnapped/dp/1250054265)), an excellent read. There is a lengthy
discussion on how the book was sourced and a dedication to fact-checking and
information accuracy. In it, they describe how many people inside actually do
recognize their situation and how they're forced to act against how they feel.
The crying at Kim Jong Il's funeral, in particular, is addressed and the book
mentions how North Koreans that didn't look sincere enough in their grief
faced punishment.

------
ekianjo
Mmmm, highly dubious this has anything to do with Japan. I mean, it's not like
every other dictatorship under the Sun that lasted long enough does not share
the same aspects. Mao was still very much revered like a God in China, the
same goes for Stalin in Russia - so, is this guy saying Japanese Imperialism
is at the root of all of this ? Seriously?

~~~
kyllo
All of the western political ideology (Colonialism, Communism, Fascism,
Democracy) that came to Korea (and China) came by way of Japan. The Japanese
Empire was the first polity in East Asia to adopt and apply Western political
concepts to their government. Large numbers of Korean and Chinese scholars
went to Japan to study and brought these concepts (as well as the vocabulary
itself) from Japan back to their native countries with them. As a result,
essentially all modern political thought in East Asia was tinted by Japanese
imperialist ideology.

~~~
ekianjo
> All of the western political ideology (Colonialism, Communism, Fascism,
> Democracy) that came to Korea (and China) came by way of Japan.

Erm... Westerners were present in China way before they even came to Japan -
you seem to forget Japan has an isolationism policy for several hundred years
that explicitly restricted foreign influence until the late 1800s.

If anything, China was way more exposed to any Western culture before the
ships of Perry even sailed to Japan. British occupation of HK was from 1841.

And let's not forget Singapore, with Raffles as early as the early 1800s.

But yeah, "everything went through Japan" ?

~~~
kyllo
Not "everything" went through Japan. Modern Western political philosophy went
through Japan, because Japan was the first East Asian nation to adopt it in
their government and teach it in their learning institutions.

------
hitekker
This viewpoint is described in detail in the book, The Cleanest Race:

[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004EWETZW/ref=dp-kindle-
re...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004EWETZW/ref=dp-kindle-
redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1)

It supports the theory of North Korean racial fascism premised upon WW2
Japanese Fascism, by analyzing language (The dramatic superiority of the
"Mother" word over the "Father" word in the North Korean dictionary) and
historical trends (the movement of korean propagandists from south korea to
north korea following the end of WW2)

~~~
topspin
The Khmer Rouge also indulged notions of racial and ethnic `purity' as they
persecuted Chinese, Vietnamese and others. Shall we imagine the Khmer Rouge
was also some heretofore unrecognized manifestation of `fascism'? Attempts to
salvage the intellectuals' opiate produces a great deal of nonsense.

------
vonnik
This is actually false. The leaders of North Korea fought to liberate the
peninsula from the Japanese, while many of the leaders of South Korea were
officers in the Japanese imperial army. For a brief moment after WWII, the
North Korean freedom fighters were the good guys. No, obviously, the tables
have turned. But that does not remove the stain of collaboration from the
South Korean elite.

~~~
Symmetry
The early leaders of the United States fought to liberate their country from
Great Britain but that doesn't mean they weren't strongly influenced by
British ideas about government and rights.

~~~
mikeash
Those leaders by and large _were_ British. The revolution was essentially
about establishing a separate cultural and political identity where there
previously was none. That's different from a situation where a foreign invader
conquers and occupies the land, and people who already lived there fight to
throw them out.

~~~
rawTruthHurts
>The revolution was essentially about establishing a separate cultural and
political identity where there previously was none.

And banks, don't forget about banks.

------
zoner
A read Mein Kampf in two different language, also I'm studying the works of
Julius Evola. I have never read principles there like the death of head of the
state would mean the death of the nation. There's lots of talk about hierarchy
and of course, absolute power (but it means absolute responsibility too).

North Korea is rather an extremist bolshevik state, rather than fascist and
also a very dangerous one, but making a parallel with Japan is not so smart.
It's very far away from Yukio Mishima and so.

~~~
Symmetry
It's certainly true that you didn't see the deification of the head of state
as part of Nazism or Italian fascism. But it was very much part of the
imperial Japanese ideology which might or might not be fascist depending on
how you define the term. So you could easily argue that Japanese or North
Koreans aren't really fascists. You can even argue about whether the Nazis
were truly fascist but where their own thing.

I can't say I'm particularly familiar with Yukio Mishima and his coup attempt
but I imagine the ideologies have to evolve when they don't have a Kempeitai
working on their side behind the scenes.

------
mariojv
Was the Japanese occupation of Korea really justified in racial terms?

I'm skeptical of parts of this article when it refers to Japanese imperial
ideology as "fascism." It was most certainly extremely right-wing, but I think
extreme nationalism + imperialism are more accurate descriptions, especially
since Japan didn't join the Axis until decades after Korea was annexed.

I thought the motivation for the colonization of Korea was more resource
scarcity in Japan and a desire to compete with Western powers through empire
building. To justify their actions I think Korean society was portrayed as
"less civilized" which is more a statement about cultural and political norms
than race, although those portrayals can probably slip into a racist ideology
pretty quickly.

It seems like the "official" policy was different, at least:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Equality_Proposal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Equality_Proposal)

I'm not trying to portray devil's advocate at all, just actually asking
whether what the article portrays is accurate. I think the early 20th century
_actions_ of imperial Japan were abhorrent, but it's important to at least try
to understand the ideology of the time as it was discussed and understood.

~~~
hitekker
I can't speak to all your points: but yes, the Japanese were racist against
the Koreans.

See:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Investigation_of_Global_Pol...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Investigation_of_Global_Policy_with_the_Yamato_Race_as_Nucleus)

>A a family has harmony and reciprocity, but with a clear-cut hierarchy, the
Japanese, as a purportedly racially superior people, were destined to rule
Asia "eternally" as the head of the family of Asian nations.

And also:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-
Prosperit...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-
Prosperity_Sphere)

>It explicitly states the superiority of the Japanese over other Asian races
and provides evidence that the Sphere was inherently hierarchical, including
the Japanese Empire's true intention of domination over the Asian continent
and Pacific Ocean.

> The militarists saw everything only in a Japanese perspective and, even
> worse, they insisted that all others dealing with them should do the same.
> For them there was only one way to do a thing, the Japanese way; only one
> goal and interest, the Japanese interest; only one destiny for the East
> Asian countries, to become so many Manchukuos or Koreas tied forever to
> Japan. These racial impositions... made any real understanding between the
> Japanese militarists and the people of our region virtually impossible.

Interestingly, even Japanese propaganda asserting racial harmony itself was
tinged with racism. Compare this picture of an imaginary pro-japanese chinese
demonstration,

[http://chineseposters.net/gallery/e27-165.php](http://chineseposters.net/gallery/e27-165.php)

with another picture of japanese soldiers rescuing the chinese:

[http://chineseposters.net/gallery/e27-166.php](http://chineseposters.net/gallery/e27-166.php)

The faces of the Chinese are ugly; nowhere near as refined or as elegant as
that of the depicted Japanese in the second. One could argue this is style,
but in a work that's intended to be seen by huge volumes of people, this
particular detail is one of many that points to overwhelming racism.

Edit: made a content edit upon further research.

~~~
emiliobumachar
Great quotes, but, regarding the last point, I actually think the Chinese in
the front, with more detail, look better than the pale Japanese in the other
poster.

~~~
russ0chen
In Japan, paleness is desirable.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_skin_in_Japanese_culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_skin_in_Japanese_culture)

~~~
ousta
in any asian country. just look at the ads in thailand

------
Htsthbjig
Wow, this man is convinced that North Korea is a far right country.

For me right has a total different meaning from Japan culture. In fact left
and right comes from France cultural system.

It looks like this man personally attributes everything bad to right.

Being an authoritarian regime is right(for this man), but the soviet Union was
authoritarian, like any other communist regime, fro Castro to Chavez.

Being xenophobic now is right too so with this Sleight of Hand Khmer Rouge
were not left, but far right too.

For me "right" means the political group that favors free markets, free men
and bourgeois class, nothing to do with Japan before WWII.

------
ramgorur
stupid article, sounds like those retarded reptilian conspiracy theorist
garbage.

none of those north korean government propaganda relies on racial purity or
superiority, not even implicitly, the Juche ideology has nothing to do with
race. The divinity of a ruler is, I think, culturally influenced. "Kim on a
solar halo" does not imply a sun god.

