
The Unwelcome Mat - How Not to Attract Tourists - fuzzix
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/16/opinion/the-unwelcome-mat.html
======
cstross
I'm British. I visit the USA 2-3 times per year and travel elsewhere quite
frequently. I would rate the "welcome mat" as rather less welcoming than
Yugoslavia during the Cold War (a Communist dictatorship).

One annoying note: my wife and I did not change our names when we got married.
On a couple of recent occasions we've travelled separately via different
airports/on different dates, to rendezvous subsequently. If entering the USA
separately on such trips, she usually gets the third degree: "why aren't you
travelling with your husband?"

There's serious institutional sexism at work in the immigration system. (Not
just the discrimination against middle-easterners that we all know about.)

One point to note is that ICE personnel live and work locally. So your
reception varies quite dramatically depending on your port of entry. At
Portland and Seattle, for example, they're generally polite, friendly, and
about as reasonable as it's possible to be while working within an
unreasonable framework. On the other hand, I actively try to avoid entering
the US at Newark. The _least_ annoying US immigration clearance experience
I've had was in Dublin, Ireland -- the US immigration staff screen travellers
by special arrangement on Irish soil (as on Canadian soil) and they've pretty
much gone native. Alas, that means flying via Aer Lingus or Delta, which add
other drawbacks ...

~~~
arethuza
The only time I travelled into Yugoslavia during the Cold War (July '88) was
_rather_ scary - we were on a train from Italy and it stopped in the middle of
nowhere and a troops appeared and surrounded the train. I distinctly remember
watching them set up what looked like an enormous machine gun of some kind,
which was pointed directly at our compartment.

They then did whole "papers please" routine down the length of the train.
Things got quite amusing when they got to my travelling companion as he had
grown a beard since having his passport photo taken - so his facial hair was
given a rather close examination and a sound tug or two.

In my typically rather naive way I thought it was all quite exciting, at least
until they got to some harmless old lady who clearly did _not_ have her papers
in order and the soldiers all got really very angry indeed - to the point
where one took out his pistol and started waiving it around rather a lot. They
probably shouted at her for the best part of an hour.

Eventually the train moved on, but it took a _long_ time and was very
unpleasant.

~~~
tripzilch
At US airports there are also soldiers or guards carrying big scary automatic
weapons in plain sight, you get your fingerprints taken and a picture shot
from several angles like you're some sort of criminal and if they decide your
papers warrant "special attention" you'll get not only yelled at, but fondled
_quite_ a bit more than just a few tugs on your beard.

It's also the only place that made me take my shoes off before the metal
detector, which I found quite humiliating--maybe sounds weird but there is
something about having to partially undress and being made to walk around on
your socks for a bit in front of very unfriendly looking officers trying to
decide whether they shall give you an additional pat-down or not that just
screams WELCOME TO AMERICA, LAND OF THE FREE.

I dunno, it was good to have visited the place once but I'm not sure if I want
to go there again. My US friends can come to Europe next time :)

~~~
anamax
> At US airports there are also soldiers or guards carrying big scary
> automatic weapons in plain sight

When I was in Frankfurt in the 80s, it looked like every airport and train
policeman carried a submachine gun.

In both Germany and the UK, I saw ordinary police carrying submachine guns
outside the airport. (The UK surprised me.) Again, the 80s.

Has that changed? (I saw a couple of Italian police outside of airports with
submachine guns post-2005.)

I've never seen more than a couple of automatic weapons in a US airport (and I
spend way too much time in them). (BTW - M-16s aren't "big scary".)

I've seen maybe 10 US police outside of airports with automatic weapons in the
last 30 years.

I was surprised how well armed the Indonesian airport police were in 2010.

~~~
dagw
_The UK surprised me_

I'm surprised at your surprise. The thing to remember is that terrorist groups
has been a real and continuous threat in many European countries since at
least the 60's. So airport security is something they've been taking seriously
for decades and as such serious men with sub-machines guns have always been
part of the scenery in most major European airports.

~~~
DanBC
The UK thing is gently surprising. It's only reletively recently that they've
started openly carrying guns.

Metropolitan Police were first permanently stationed at Heathrow in 1974.
Boundary and operational conditions meant that most airport police could not
carry arms; a law change in 1974 made it possible for them to do so.

But they openly started carrying machine guns in 1986.[1]

The UK had domestic terrorism for a long time before that happened. (Also,
after.[3])

([http://articles.latimes.com/1986-01-09/news/mn-14156_1_machi...](http://articles.latimes.com/1986-01-09/news/mn-14156_1_machine-
guns))

([http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19860109&...](http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19860109&id=e7dAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=x6UMAAAAIBAJ&pg=5735,1145611))

[3] ([http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ira-bombs-on-runway-as-
jet...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ira-bombs-on-runway-as-jets-land-
mortar-attack-at-heathrow--new-campaign-fear--terrorism-act-renewed-in-
commons-1428076.html))

As an off-topic aside, my recent web searches include things like [heathrow
mortars] and [machine guns heathrow] and so on. It says something that my
totally innocent searching for information has left me with some anxiety.

------
babarock
My country is not a US "ally", so what I say may not apply to every one.

One thing we get used to is the "step aside" treatment. When a border agent
sees my Lebanese passport with "arabic gibberish" they usually react the same
way. There's a little hesitation, (one time the agent even called her
supervisor), then I'm asked to "step aside", go to a special lane, get a full
body search from an extremely cold person following protocole to the letter.
They will go through all my stuff, literally everything and after making sure
I'm "clean" they let me go.

I don't complain much though, it's just a funny ritual. And more often than
none, the "step aside" lane is far less crowded than the regular one, which
means that despite the intensive search, it's still takes me less time.

On the other hand, one of my closest friends studying at Purdue University had
a mandatory two hour stop in an interrogation room, every time he passezd by
the airport of Chicago, because he has the mention "born in Beirut" on his
French passport. "Randomly selected" they said...

~~~
kamjam
It's a well written article, good to see on a site like nytimes.

I have to also agree with your statement. I have been to the states 3 times,
first in 2006 where I flew into JFK and was "randomly selected" (woooo, I
won!) and then detained for additional questionning for 5 hours.

What did they ask me? Name, DoB, place of birth (all info IN MY PASSPORT
ALREADY!), fathers/mothers name, address, what job I did, where I was staying.
I have no problems them asking me, but it's the way they treat you. I got put
in a waiting room, told to sit down and answer these question in an
"application" form. Having filled this in they just told me to sit down. When
I got up to ask what was taking so long, "Sir, would you please sit unless you
are called". As if the sir makes it polite. Eventually they stamped my
passport and I was through.

Flash forward to July 2010, first stop Atlanta. Same deal. I'l also been
backpacking for 6 months. That raised an eyebrow when he looked through all
the stamps. I hadn't gone to any of those "terrorist" countries though. I was
born in Bangladesh and have in the UK since I was a year old. I did get asked
though \- Did you have any military training before you left? \- Have you been
to country X, Y, Z \- Why did you go to X, Y, Z. Do you not have a job? How
did you get time off? \- I even got asked why I left Bangladesh. Really?!? I
was a year old mate, didn't really have a say in the matter!

The last time I went was December 2011. That time was a breeze. Flew into
Newark, I was already on the system now (I had a change of passport between
first 2 visits). I STILL however got briefly questioned in the queue to the
counter, I have no idea why, but colour of skin is the only thing...

My brother went to Peru a few years back, he a his girlfriend had a stopover
in Miami for a couple hours. Note they were not "entering" America, this was a
compulsory refuel stop I guess. He gets hauled in, his girlfriend is sitting
outside WTF is going on. He misses his flight due to the delay, they barely
get him on the next flight but now his girlfriend has no fight since she was
not hauled in. The airline to their credit were good, swapped their flights
and his girlfriend took his flight and they gave him another flight yet
several hours later. The most ignorant part of this though, when questioned
"where were you born" my brother said "London, UK", "But your passport says
Kingston", "Yes, Kingston Upon Thames, near London, UK", "Well the only
Kingston I know if Kingston, Jamaica". This delayed things a bit. Yes, the
world is bigger than that corner of the earth!

</rant>

But the people their are some of the friendliest and hospitable people I have
met, and I've travelled around a fair bit!

~~~
anamax
> What did they ask me? Name, DoB, place of birth (all info IN MY PASSPORT
> ALREADY!),

They ask because folks using false papers occasionally don't know what their
papers say.

~~~
kamjam
They didn't ask me this face to face, they asked me to write it down after
they had told me to sit down. If this was the case, I would have just copied
it from my documents... yes, they had taken my passport, but I would have a
photocopy in case it got lost right....?

------
yequalsx
I'm a white middle class U.S. citizen. The only country's borders that I get
nervous crossing are America's. I've gotten harassed quite a few times. I'm at
the point where I wonder if I'm on a watch list.

Last time I was in Germany for 3 months before flying back to the U.S.
Questions I was asked in an unfriendly, brusque manner:

Why were you gone so long? Don't you work? What do you do for a living? Why
would your employer let you be gone so long? Why did you pay so much for that?

I wish foreigners would stop visiting the U.S. Maybe then we would change our
policies.

~~~
andyking
I dread crossing through American border control at the airport every single
time. I use O'Hare, and they literally look and talk to you like dirt. I'm
doing nothing wrong, I'm visiting America for legitimate reasons, yet I'm
barked at like an army recruit.

Last time, I couldn't tell what the guy behind the glass screen was actually
asking me to do, which irritated him immensely. "Lef'and." "Lef'and."
"LEF'AND." It took a few tries for me to realise that what he was trying to
say was "Can you put your left hand on the scanner, please?"

Maybe it's because I'm British, but I find the British border and security
people far more pleasant, which is strange because on the whole, I find
British people colder than Americans. Even when something goes wrong, they're
apologetic (I was randomly picked for a full pat-down last time I flew out of
Manchester, and it was all done with friendliness, good humour, and apologies
for delaying me slightly.)

"Please" and "thank you" cost nothing, and would likely be quicker than these
repeated barked orders. I like the American people--on the whole, I find them
pleasant, polite, good-humoured, decent people. I mean, I _am_ marrying one!
So where do they find these people who work on the borders? Every single time
I go through, I'm incredibly nervous of doing something slightly wrong, which
makes me more nervous because I look nervous and worry they'll think I'm up to
something. It's terrifying.

~~~
kokey
Coming into the UK through Heathrow, as a non-EU citizen, can be quite
unpleasant. It's less so nowadays than before, and it was also highly
dependent on where you are coming from and what passport you are carrying and
when you are landing. That said, they tend to warm up the more you seem to
know the drill and the more stamps for entry you have in your passport. For
first time visitors the experience can be pretty aweful as they play Jeremy
Paxman on you after you've just spent 10 hours on a flight. That said, if the
immigration officer is of an ethnic minority they are usually much nicer. It's
one of the times I don't feel bad for racial stereotyping, when I have a
choice of desk after 40 minutes of queuing and aim for the non-white officer.

I find the other UK airports to be much friendlier in general, they even say
'please' and 'thank you' and even have a sense of humour.

~~~
CaptainZapp
I really like London City airport.

Last time I landed there I literally blitzed through immigration and boarded a
DLR train like 15 minutes after landing.

A beautiful approach, too.

~~~
dredmorbius
I'm not sure how keen Londoners are on being blitzed.

Even now.

------
graeme
For Canadians, it is infinitely easier to enter communist Cuba than the United
States. I passed through extra screening in Cuba once, because I had
previously worked there, which made them nervous. The _secondary_ screen was
more in than speaking to a normal American guard.We had a great conversation,
actually. We laughed, and talked about my work in Cuba.

In the USA there seems to be a no laughing rule. In Amercan airports, you're
treated as if you're doing something wrong by being there. The guards glare a
you - it's very strange.

For some reason, land border crossings are usuall better. So I try and enter
by train or car if possible. While i've had 1-2 bad experiences by land, the
guards are usually quite nice.

The TSA seems to be the main problem, and their toxic culture has infected
other airport personnel.

I like Americans, but I avoid traveling to the country.

~~~
talentdeficit
I fly into the US via YVR Vancouver approximately 18 times per year, and it's
almost always a terrible experience. ICE officers are surly, impatient and
unpleasant, even when there's no lineup and no urgency. There are exceptions,
there is one officer who knows me on sight and always asks how my previous
visits were. The majority can't even be bothered to make eye contact or do
anything beyond order me through the fingerprint scans and photographs. Once,
one accused me of hating America for living in Canada but doing business in
the USA.

By car, however, the experience has almost always been excellent. One border
agent told me an extended anecdote about why Andrew Jackson was called 'Old
Hickory' when I paid my VISA fees with a $10 bill. Another greeted me with
'you know weezy? good times?'. They seem relaxed, friendly and happy in
general.

There definitely seems to be a difference in culture between the airport
personnel and the land border personnel.

~~~
excuse-me
I think there is a natural air of doom over everyone who works at an airport.
But US immigration at YVR is the worst. I think it's because they are forced
to be in Vancouver while still working for ICE. It's like being forced to work
at a soup kitchen inside a Purdeys chocolate shop!

~~~
jff
Airports are the most soul-sucking places to be for anyone. I feel like crap
after spending a few hours in one... I can't imagine working there every
single day.

------
rb2k_
My (German) perspective on this:

I've traveled to the US (always to Boston) a few times over the recent years.
While all of the "take your shoes off" stuff is annoying, it's really not that
big of a deal.

The ESTA process can be done online and you can pay with your credit card. It
takes about 15 minutes and 15 minutes after that you get an email.

It's all a little bit annoying, but I don't feel personally insulted and so
far it worked without a hassle. The border security people have always been
nice to me and it felt more like a chit-chat rather than an interrogation.

A lot of the process seems useless, but seeing as it doesn't take away all
that much time, I'm fine with it.

I've been treated way worse traveling to eastern european countries by car.

~~~
yardie
Part of this may be your country of origin, part of it may be because you have
ESTA clearance, and part of it may be because of the airport you fly into.

As a US passport holder I'm pretty much done using LAX, MIA, and EWR.

~~~
rb2k_
I don't think you can actually enter at all without ESTA clearance

~~~
DrJokepu
You only need ESTA if you want a WT/WB (visa waiver) visa. If you already have
another non-immigrant or immigrant visa and you meet the conditions of the
visa, you don't need an ESTA. Also you don't need an ESTA for WT/WB if you're
crossing the US border on land from Canada or Mexico.

------
mvip
I'm a Swedish citizen and I travel to the U.S. a few times a year (to Silicon
Valley mostly). I _always_ dread going through customs. The TSA must have been
rejected from _any_ other job, including flipping burgers, before landing this
gig. They are usually _very_ rude and assume you are a terrorist until you
persuade them that you're not.

That said, it varies _a lot_ between airports. I've flown through many
different airports on my way to SFO, and the closer you get to the west-coast,
the friendlier the agents (with individual exceptions of course). SFO and
Seattle tend to be the most friendly ones in my experience. Yet, you're in a
constant fear that you checked the wrong box somewhere, and they'll send you
on the next flight home.

For a civilized country, this is simply unacceptable. I wish all politicians
would be forced through this process every time they flew, and I'm confident
that this would change in no-time.

~~~
waiwai933
Just a small note—US customs and immigration is handled by the Customs and
Border Patrol, not the TSA (which handles security screening only).

~~~
mvip
Good point. You're right.

------
jwr
I am a dual citizen (this includes US citizenship) and I was always amazed at
how I'm treated when entering the US. It is as if the border guards were
deciding whether to let me in or not! (Actually, I think this is exactly what
they're doing) I mean, what does it matter where I'm heading in the US, where
I work, or where my family lives? How is that anybody's business? I'm entering
my own country, after all!

As a comparison, in most European countries the passport control does two
things, and two things only: a) determine whether you are a citizen (e.g.
passport control), b) determine whether you are a criminal that needs to be
arrested immediately. There is no other option. If you are a citizen of the
country you are entering and they don't arrest you right away, they can't
detain you, question you, harass you, or do anything else. There are no
questions about where you're heading, where you work, what you do for a
living. There would be no point in asking: as a citizen, you have the right to
be heading anywhere, working anywhere, or actually not making a living at all.

Land of the free, indeed.

~~~
DenisM
They are probably trying to figure out if you are who you say you are by
asking all kinds of questions that you know the answer for and an impersonator
would struggle with. Not condoning they behavior, just pointing out.

------
colkassad
I met and married my wife overseas. When we moved back to the States, I went
with her while she was cleared through immigration in Newark Airport, NJ. We
waited in an area with other people going through the same process.

The immigration officer walked in with this disgusted look, sighed heavily,
and proceeded to process everyone. It was appalling how he treated people,
yelling at them to place their hand properly for fingerprinting, telling
people not to talk unless asked to, etc. He proceeded to treat my wife like
crap as well, until he looked over her paperwork and noticed she was
travelling with me, and asked her where her husband was. She pointed at me and
his demeanor changed immediately. He obviously wasn't used to being observed
by a fellow American in his day to day work.

I wish I had had the balls to say something to him, but as far as we were
concerned, he was holding the keys to the kingdom.

------
ed209
I made my first trip to the US this week, Austin via Houston from UK to sxsw.

I had read various reports on the state of entering America, but it was far
worse than I expected.

I tried to find info about visas, but it said I didn't need one for what was
practically a holiday. It was only when I got to the airport that I was told I
needed a visa waiver. I fired up the iPhone and spent the best part of 30
minutes trying to fill out what is probably the worst multipart form I've seen
since 2003.

On arrival at Houston it seems a couple of other planes turned up. The end
result was a 3 hour wait in line to get through passport control (Americans
were caught up in this equally). Fingerprints, photos, 3rd degree about my
visit - if they don't want me here, they should have said before I booked my
ticket.

After checking-in to the US, I had to go back through "security". That was
another 1.5 hour queue. I opted out of the scanner, and they were pretty good
about it a Houston. However, on the way back at Austin they make you stand in
a ridiculous perspex shout it about the place and really make you pay for not
going through the scanner.

Over all, the experience I had is summed up pretty well by this article. I
felt totally unwelcome, kind of like an 18 year old trying to get into an over
capacity nightclub past a couple of bored bouncers who already took a dislike
to me...

------
swombat
I deliberately avoid planning any trip to the US because of this. The only
reason I'll travel to the US for at this point is if I have an overwhelming
business imperative to do so. For example, I'd probably travel to the US to be
interviewed by YC, if I ever applied. For pleasure? Not a chance.

~~~
masklinn
> The only reason I'll travel to the US for at this point is if I have an
> overwhelming business imperative to do so. For example, I'd probably travel
> to the US to be interviewed by YC, if I ever applied. For pleasure? Not a
> chance.

Don't fuck up your visa application though, a colleague did that (he got a
business visa but the wrong one), was refused entry and — because it was
during the Eyjafjallajökull event — had the chance to visit the US's
penitentiaries for a week before they could put him on a plane back.

------
sambeau
While the card-filling and pointless questioning is a pain the worst aspect of
arriving in the US is the state of the US airports, specifically the
facilities in arrivals.

On my first visit I was unable to find a working ATM, was insulted by a surly
woman running an info desk who was more interested in talking to her boyfriend
and was accosted by numerous taxi drivers none of which seemed to be properly
licensed.

The experience was no different to arriving in a 3rd world country.

~~~
yardie
LOL, have you been to CDG (Paris) yet?

~~~
sambeau
I've flown to Nice many times and it's fine. Although, on the way out last
time (when I had a proper beard) I was pulled aside by the security guy and
had the following whispered in my ear:

"I know who you are…"

 _panic. heart in mouth. I'm about to be locked up_

(beat)

"Nice to meet you Santa Claus!"

------
crusso
The comments in this thread are really eye opening. I like the YC forums
because they're very entrepreneurial and not full of a bunch of whiners.

The fact that there are so many negative complaints regarding US border
security is more than noteworthy. The TSA and Immigration are just so way out
of control.

Overall, I think that this is the result of a lack of consistent and sane
policies regarding immigration and border control. On the one hand, we do
relatively little to stop illegal immigration on some of our borders for
political reasons. Then on the other hand, we flail madly in the authoritarian
direction by having this massive and unchecked TSA bureaucracy.

We really have no idea what we're doing on a national level. As ineffective
and counterproductive as border security and immigration is here, I can bet
even without looking at the numbers that it isn't cheap.

------
krolley
I recall reading somewhere that the reason that these ESTA forms exist, or the
travel cards for Britain and Australia is that if you arrive and they found
that you really _had_ a criminal record when you ticked the box that said you
didn't, is so they can throw you out of the country for providing false
information on the document, rather than for having a criminal record.

~~~
corin_
Sounds rather pointless to me, but if that is the case, how about moving to
two questions: "Have you read all the rules?" "Are you breaking any of them?"

Much quicker.

------
Dervall
This is very accurate. As a Swede going to visit the US, a country which I
love dearly, the last summer my main fear was filling out forms incorrectly or
the airports security procedure. And Sweden is more or less a total ally to
America, if unofficial, and a major trading partner. It's hard to find someone
less threatening than a Swedish citizen.

Which really is a shame, because in general Americans are a friendly bunch of
people.

~~~
ajuc
At least you don't need green cards. Poland is more or less USA troyan horse
these days (see Afghanistan, Iraq, missile defence, etc), and still to go to
USA you need to participate in lottery..

I think it's somehow playing out for Poland good - it makes brain drain a
little slower.

------
Wazowski
This was interesting because, as an American who has traveled abroad, I was
not aware that we make even our closest allies, the British, pay a fee online
before entering America. I would love to hear from foreigners on their border
experiences.

~~~
corin_
Compared to flying somewhere where you need an actually approved visa, like
China, ESTA is both conveniant and cheap. Given that until not long ago we
Brits needed a visa to go to America, it's a hell of a step up.

~~~
john_flintstone
That's true. Chinese visa procedures are nightmarish, and can change without
warning. But it's a bureaucratic and paperwork nightmare, not an inter-
personal nightmare - there's no third degree. And once you land on Chinese
soil, border control is a breeze. I'd much sooner take the grief weeks before
the trip than when I land, tired after a long haul flight.

~~~
corin_
Last time I went to China I and several colleagues were placed into quarantine
(biohazard suits around us) for about an hour, and later had to bribe a
customs officer to get the tech. equipment we had shipped seperately out of
the airport.. not always a breeze!

------
tokenadult
_Mark Vanhoenacker is a writer and airline pilot based in New York._

I read through the whole interesting submitted article, and the one question I
have is about actual numbers of tourist visitors to the United States.

After the worldwide recession, tourism to the United States from other
countries declined,

[http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Foreign-Tourism-Drops-
in...](http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Foreign-Tourism-Drops-in-United-
States-92774799.html)

but the number of tourists has since recovered. The United Nations World
Tourism Barometer

[http://mkt.unwto.org/sites/all/files/docpdf/unwtohighlights1...](http://mkt.unwto.org/sites/all/files/docpdf/unwtohighlights11enlr.pdf)

reports that the United States is second only to France in the number of
foreign tourism visits, and that the United States enjoyed growth in visits
from the 2010 reporting year compared to the 2009 reporting year. The
submitted article didn't mention statistics like this, but reported on
anecdotes.

I'm an American who has lived overseas. I haven't crossed an interational
border in a bit more than a decade. (All other members of my family have
crossed international borders since 9/11/2001.) I hope to travel to Canada by
car with my whole family this summer. I fully agree with the author's premise
that the United States ought to look as friendly and welcoming as the people
in my community when foreign visitors first encounter a United States border
official. But I can't help but wonder if this really matters a lot from the
"attract tourists" point of view, if the United States has a continued growth
in the number of tourists, and it is second only to a Schengen Area country
that has a land border and rail connections with other Schengen Area countries
in the number of foreign visitors it enjoys every year. Maybe most visitors
understand that annoying security measures at the border are part of what make
the freedom of movement inside the United States borders a palatable policy
for many Americans who are more worried about terrorist attacks than I am.

~~~
grhino
It's also possible that word hasn't spread enough among potential foreign
travelers of the pain of the U.S. Border control. A lot of foreign travelers
to the US may have not experienced recent border control at all, and so they
decide to travel without any real knowledge about that.

The "unwelcome mat" may be damping tourism growth by discouraging repeat
visitors rather than outright discouraging all visitors.

~~~
grecy
> The "unwelcome mat" may be damping tourism growth by discouraging repeat
> visitors rather than outright discouraging all visitors.

I agree 100%.

I managed a hostel in Ecuador for 6 months, and most visitors from Europe had
a forced stopover in the US on their way to Latin America. The horror stories
were amazing, and many people vowed to never again cross into the "land of the
free".

------
waterside81
Here's some more anecdotal evidence about the nonsense of the ESTA form. My
g/f is British, we live in Toronto. We flew to the US and her ESTA application
from a few years back had expired. (Every 3-4 years I think, you have to
renew). So at the airline check in, we're informed she'll have to re-apply. We
though we were screwed but no, she just had to apply right there on the spot
using my iPad and the airport's free wi-fi. Went to the ESTA site, filled out
some info, paid the fee with a credit card and then proceeded to US
immigration (which in Toronto, is in the airport itself).

How much security could that form be adding if you can apply for it literally
minutes before travelling to the US.

~~~
CaptainZapp

      How much security could that form be adding if you can apply for it literally minutes before travelling to the US.
    

I heard from an American work colleague that a main point is traceability. You
pay with a credit card and can fairly easily be tracked by that, while you're
in the country.

I'm not sure how true this is and I'm not a believer in whacky conspiracy
theories, but it seemed rather plausible.

------
benjaminwootton
On my recent trips to and through the US, I've been pleasantly surprised by
how I've been treated at the border.

All of the staff were extremely friendly and helpful - they seemed as though
they were actively trying to create a good impression and reverse this
perception.

I'm a Brit, usually travelling via NYC.

------
hopeless
I've avoided all conferences and work trips to the U.S. since 2003. Next year
my wife's cousin is getting married in NY and I really don't want to go --
purely because of the hostile airport security

It's generally not about the practical implications (there aren't any, most
tourists pass through fine) but about the theoretical possibilities and the
implication that I'm only visiting so I can blow something up, or that I've
strapped C4 to my 4yo daughter who must be xray'd or patted-down.

------
MikeStall57
I am an American citizen. My race is not white though. I have traveled all
over the world, and have visited over 30 countries. There is no country that I
am more afraid to enter than the United States of America, my own home
country. When arriving in the United States I am rudely interrogated and
treated guilty (of what?) until proven innocent. When I arrive in other
countries, I'm told "Welcome". It makes me sad.

------
rickmb
The painful part of the whole entering the US thing is not the bureaucracy or
the security theater. It's the people.

The whole system seems to be filled with people that are trained to make
entering the US an unpleasant experience. Even when everything goes smoothly,
rarely are people at the border being nice, polite and helpful as they are in
most other countries.

This is all the more remarkable since it is so distinctively un-American.
Americans are probably the most friendly and open people in the Western world.
Once you get past the border, it's a breath of fresh air compared to most
European countries.

So regardless whether or not the entire process is really justified, my main
question is: what the fuck is wrong with these people?

------
noonespecial
Every once in a while I daydream about a government full of rationalists who
one day say to themselves, "Hey, um, you know what would be a better thing to
spend our money on preventing than terrorism? Cancer."

------
tallanvor
I can't even find the words to explain just how much I agree with this
article.

There are several times when I've been absolutely amazed at how horribly I was
treated while going through boarder control, and I'm an American. --They even
treat us like criminals, so the bullshit foreigners have to go through with
ESTA, getting their fingerprints and photos taken and whatnot is beyond
embarrassing. I live in Norway now, and when people I know are headed to the
US, I actually feel the need to apologize about the treatment I know they'll
receive, even though I wrote to my senators protesting a lot of these policies
that our government voted in. I can only hope that one day they'll realize the
injustice of what they've done.

I'm thankful that most countries - especially countries in Europe, haven't
been vindictive and forced the same treatment on Americans, although I
wouldn't blame them if they did.

------
robomartin
I have thought for a long time that part of the US tax code ought to be
devoted to getting people to travel outside the US. A nice tax credit for
foreign travel would open the eyes of our citizens to what lies beyond their
town borders.

I would see this as an investment in culture and not necessarily a subsidy.
Maybe it's something you can use once every few years and not every year.

This would do wonders for both the average US citizen's view of the world as
well as the world's view of the US citizens.

My hope is that something like this might just lead to more sensible behavior
towards other cultures and peoples. What happens when entering the country is
but one small example of the problem.

~~~
untog
The American government just _handing out money to foreigners_? Get out of
here, you filthy liberal.

Of course, sarcasm on my part, but I'm pretty sure that would be the kind of
reaction you'd get. You think of "investment in culture" as a good thing, many
others see a liberal conspiracy.

~~~
robomartin
The funny thing is that I am not a liberal. I'm not a conservative either. A
sensible mixture, maybe.

Traveling really opens your mind in ways that can't be quantified. I really
think that our countrymen can be very egocentric to the point of bordering on
ignorance. Understanding and knowing about other cultures is very important.
I'd gladly support such a tax incentive because I am sure that it would pay
dividends many times over in amazing ways.

------
wildmXranat
I don't want to pile on with my complaints about travelling to the USA, so
I'll just mention that I will not fly there for leisure or if it can be
avoided. Living in Toronto allows me to drive across, which will suffice in
most occasions. I came to this conclusion after a few unwelcoming treatments.

------
etherael
CDG airport in France has awesome security. One time through there after
having put my passport through a washing machine by accident, when I asked if
this would be a problem they just laughed and said no, no, not at all, it's
very clean.

Meanwhile, under no circumstances would I even consider visiting or transiting
the US.

~~~
emwa
I recently had to change Airports in France from CDG to Orly when travelling
to Barcelona for the Mobile World Congress. I had a Schengen Visa and on
mentioning that I was on transit to Barcelona, they started demanding to see
the invitation (Lucky I had it printed), whether I had some cash to take me
Orly Airport, my credit card and a load of bullshit questioning by a guy who I
could hardly hear because he was speaking very fast in a low voice behind the
glass. I felt like asking him to speak up but felt like that wouldn't have
ended well. After some moments he stamped the thing and threw it back.

------
efalcao
Even as an American, border patrol officers scare the crap out of me. I'm
totally worried about stumbling on some dumb question and getting detained.

I'll never forget my return from Mexico on the day before 9/11 where I was
greeted by a border patrol agent with piercing blue eyes, leather gloves with
cut-off tips and a big nasty snot bubble protruding from his right nostril.

------
yaix
> At Beijing’s glittering airport, travelers are invited to electronically
> rate their immigration agent.

They do that in every gov't office in China and every (gov't owned) bank. All
have these little things with buttons, where you can rate the service with one
to five stars. I highly doubt that anybody ever looks at those numbers. More
likely that a very well-connected dude has a company producing these machines.

------
DanBC
"They" will say that they're under constant threat of harm; there are people
(not necessarily terrorists) trying to smuggle stuff onto planes or into the
country, and that they have to maintain constant vigilance and being gruff,
grumpy, aggressive is a technique they use to unsettle people carrying illicit
items.

There are obvious problems with that. Interestingly, the (much mocked) TSA
blog lists some items they find each week. Very roughly, about 20 guns per
week are taken as carry on onto planes.

(<http://blog.tsa.gov/search/label/Week%20In%20Review>)

I have no idea how many people go through TSA each week. Nor how many guns
(loaded or otherwise) they miss. I have no idea if any of the weapons they
stopped would have been used for violence. But that feels like a very small
number, when compared to the direct and indirect costs of the system.

Note also the mission creep - they're very happy to list any drugs they find.
(They do say that they're not looking for drugs, but if they happen to find
them they have to report it.)

------
hodder
“The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men" -
Plato

------
nodata
I like the article, but the conclusion is wrong. Hiring even more border staff
is not the solution. Common sense and logical decisions are the correct
approach. Scrap everything else.

------
squadron
My parents want to move to the States from Canada (long story) and it's
staggering all the paperwork they need to fill out.

One of the requirements is to document everywhere you have lived for the past
16 years, including home addresses. With all the places they have lived in
Canada, it's taken them weeks to Columbo up the information.

Myself, I've lived five places in 6 months about 10 years ago (another long
story). Recollecting those times and places is something I'd rather not do.

------
whiletruefork
My name is on the no fly list (well, mine and a million others). I get
'randomly' stopped by customs every time I re-enter the country through an
airport. This doesn't happen at passport control but rather at customs. I've
started leaving notes addressed "Dear TSA" in my luggage just to laugh at the
expression on the agents face as they go through my dirty clothes.

------
pan69
Isn't that called Xenophobia?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia>

~~~
babarock
Imho, it's not xenophobia as much as "foreigners don't vote, who cares about
making things better for them".

~~~
sambeau
Tourists bring lots of money which they spend in the shops, hotels,
restaurants, taxis, etc of voters.

Voters should be voting to encourage this.

~~~
kamjam
Especially given the current economic climate, you'd think they'd want every
dime they could get!

------
benohear
There could be some value of filling in the questionnaire beforehand, namely
to make you aware of certain restrictions ahead of time. Like the fact that
you shouldn't be a genocidal terro ... OK, there really is no justification
for THAT kind of question.

But, for example, I recently smuggled a packet of Spanish Jamon into a Latin
American country which completely bans bringing that kind of thing in. But I
only found out on the plane, and there's no way I was going to flush 400gr of
prime Iberico (which on top of it was a gift) on arrival.

------
mongol
This is a good idea. I have not visited the US in more than 15 years, so has
not been subjected to fingerprints or this online form.. Do you think it is
wortwhile for me to wait until rules change, or should I get used to the idea
that the rest of the world will hold enough of interesting scenery for me to
visit during my lifetime.

------
teyc
Leaving the US equally difficult.

I went to a conference in Orlando and was planning to fly through LA to SYD.

However, the DHS told me I had to report to the LA office before I leave
during office hours, so I had to change my flights to one day earlier and
spend the night in LA just to check in at the DHS.

------
steilpass
I don't know if it still exists but for Germans the most "fun" question is
wether we are Nazis.

------
acabal
I get nervous every time I cross the border back in to America, and I'm an
American citizen.

------
bryanh
I wonder, did citizens immediately prior to the existence of the Soviet Union
or Nazi Germany sit around in bars and have the exact same rational discussion
that we're having here?

Surely it can't get that bad, but it did before.

------
user2459
It's not an unwelcome mat, it's a go away mat. As an American who travels a
lot the biggest hassle I've ever had to deal with when entering another
country was putting my bag through an x-ray machine and filling out a form
about fruits and vegetables. Whenever I get back to the states I see hours
long lines of non citizens waiting to get through customs with way too few
customs officers stamping passports. That alone would be an unwelcome mat, but
put on everything else we make people go through and we're pretty much just
saying "Go Away".

Along with the fee and abusive questionnaire at this site
<https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/> we've also got this lovely informational site
<http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html> and tons of other
fees <http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1263.html> . Then of
course after you've paid all your fees and told the US government all about
your diseases, mental illness, and intention to spy on them, you still have to
give them your fingerprints, photo, submit to a search, wait in line for 2
hours, and answer many more questions about the same stuff.

It's not xenophobia. It's full on we think we're better than you and you
pathetic humans get to deal with us 'cos we said so. The whole system wreaks
of 'cos we said so. Every citizen and border patrol agent knows it's excessive
and ineffective, but we keep on truckin' cos hey, they're all just doing
their, trained to be overly aggressive, jobs.

------
tbsdy
I tried to look at the ESTA form, but at the point where I read and agreed to
the disclaimer, after I clicked on the Next button it wouldn't go any further.

Not a good start!

