
Why Japanese Kids Can Walk to School Alone - idoco
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/10/why-japanese-kids-can-walk-to-school-alone/408475/?single_page=true
======
jmadsen
Interesting:

I submitted this exact story a week or so ago - from a different website.
Opening is word for word, different image.

[http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/09/why-are-little-
kids-i...](http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/09/why-are-little-kids-in-
japan-so-independent/407590/)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10320944](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10320944)

I can't imagine The Atlantic steals stories; obviously, this must have been
re-sold. Just interesting to see it.

~~~
dang
Ah, thank you. I felt sure we'd had a big thread about it before, but couldn't
find it earlier. Citylab is a project of the Atlantic, btw.

We've been seeing more of this cross-publishing lately, without links back to
originals. I fear it will move the needle towards more dupes on HN (actual
dupes, where we've already had a significant thread about the story in the
last year or so).

~~~
jmadsen
"Citylab is a project of the Atlantic"

Didn't know that - was surprised the author would have rights to resell his
work, and in such a short timespan. That explains!

------
beloch
Violent crime rates, including those against children, have continued to
decline year over year in Western countries for a very long time now. It is
now safer for children to be out alone at younger ages than ever before. The
odd thing is that paranoia is at an all time high. Leaving a five-year-old
unsupervised, even at home, is flirting with a visit from child protective
services. There is less to protect children from than ever before, but parents
are more protective than ever. It has reached the point that same are
concerned that today's children aren't given enough freedom to experiment and
fail.

This is not by choice. It is enforced by society and law. Consider what would
happen if you sent a three-year-old out on an errand as is done in Japan. A
child that age, alone on the street, will attract attention, primarily of the
concerned and meddling kind. The child will be asked where their parents are
and promptly returned to them. The parents will be chewed out for reckless
child endangerment as a bare minimum.

While one can argue today's child-associated paranoia is a result of fear-
mongering by the media, the real problem is that it's backed up by the law.
Parents who are too trusting and permissive will soon find themselves in
court. That has to change.

~~~
rdtsc
> is flirting with a visit from child protective services.

No doubt. Co-worker let kids (probably 5-6 years old), play outside, in a cul-
de-sac. While they were inside watching. Sure enough, anonymous neighbor
called cops. CPS and cops got involved. Embarasing calls at work, monitoring
from CPS (regular visits to "check" on them for a period of time), headaches,
lost time.

Heck, the neighbor might have just not liked the color of their lawn and they
knew that calling CPS and cops about kids will ensure maximum punishment for
minimum risk to them ("Hey, I was just thinking about the safety of the
children").

Once those in power act irrationally about anything. That will always be
exploited. It was exploited many years ago in the Soviet Union. Neighbors
would have spats about goats eating grass on the wrong side of the fence. Then
one of them would denounce the others as "enemies of the people" and bam!
family sent to Siberia in no time.

~~~
josephagoss
I do not trust child protection services, they mean well but they overuse
their power on a 'feeling' and worse, 'career advancement'.

My family was completely ripped apart and destroyed by the child protection
services in the UK.

------
coldtea
Japanese? Kids all over the world walk to school alone. In places ranging from
Spain to Singapore, including developing countries like Indonesia.

I was around 9 or 10 when I started riding public transport. Tons of kids my
age on the bus too.

~~~
tmalsburg2
Right, this articles makes it appear as if Japan was the outlier but the truth
is that the US is. I grew up in a mid-size town in Germany and all children
went to school on their own starting from age 6. We spent the whole day
playing outside roaming the city and surrounding forests and our parents did
not care at all. It was completely normal. A year ago I moved to California
and my wife and I were shocked to see how paranoid American parents are. We
live in a perfectly calm and peaceful residential neighborhood but never see
children play on the streets or in the park around the corner. Some people do
not even allow their children to play in the garden because of germs and
"dangerous" animals and whatnot.

~~~
kailuowang
> this articles makes it appear as if Japan was the outlier but the truth is
> that the US is

This is a typical U.S. center mentality. US is an outlier in many aspects in
day-to-day life. And when American travels abroad they deem many difference
they encountered as exotic things unique to that place. I heard an American
tourist comment when an Italian restaurant heated the milk before serving her
child - "what an interesting Italian tradition", well, people all over the
world avoid giving their children milk of fridge temperature.

~~~
wavefunction
Heating milk for a baby on a stove in a pot of water is an ancient American
trope in media, so perhaps you just ran into an individual idiot and made the
mistake of extrapolating from a single case.

------
coldcode
I really wonder if the actual vs imagined crime rate against children has
changed since I was a kid in the 60's. I rarely got driven to schools unless I
took a bus. Often we walked or rode a bicycle. Perhaps it's related to more
media coverage of crimes causing more fear and back in those days we had
little understanding so we weren't worried.

I was mugged once walking on Halloween when I was 6-8 or so by a group of
teenagers who took my candy and pushed me to the ground. They then continued
to walk down the street (toward my house) and I ran home crying, told my dad,
he confronted the teens, identified their parents (not sure how) and called
them. In the end I got something of the candy back and I don't know what
happened to the teens. I don't think I ever liked Halloween much after that
experience.

~~~
protomyth
Go over to this thread
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10365463](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10365463)
and see how many people are calling walking with cash dangerous and foolish.
It is mostly imagined given the CDC stats. I was a kid in the 70's and both of
us were in much more danger than a kid today.

Media has 24 hours to cover things today as opposed to an hour or two back in
the day. We hear about everything today and ratings are made by scaring the
crap out of us. Welcome to the shutin world for children.

~~~
sliverstorm
I was definitely nervous when I sold my last car and was rolling around with
$20k in my pocket. My brain knows the odds are very low, but my instinct knows
the expected loss is very high.

Those kind of risk are hard to evaluate.

~~~
wavefunction
It seems if you were selling a used car for $20k that you might have the
forethought to request a cashier's check from a reputable bank. Easier in many
ways than living with the terrible toll of worrying about walking around with
20k in your pocket...

~~~
protomyth
Well coldcode & sliverstorm, I guess you don't have to visit the other thread
to see what I was talking about. Its almost as if crime had gone up instead of
way down since the 60's and 70's, or everyone is really confident everyone
else can avail themselves of all the financial instruments a bank offers.

------
saeranv
"But small-scaled urban spaces and a culture of walking and transit use also
foster safety and, perhaps just as important, the perception of safety."

I thought of this while I was watching the video. Japanese suburban fabric is
much more compact, fine grain, mixed-use and more spatially coherent than
North American equivelents. These contribute to the'eyes on a street'[1]
condition in which neighborhood stores and residences look out onto public
streets and reinforce communal saftey. The cul-de-sacs and degenerate grids of
North American suburbs not only make walking incredibly inefficient[2], but
also increase the isolation and community-orientation of the streets.

[1] Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities [2]
[http://urbankchoze.blogspot.ca/2014/10/bad-habits-of-
north-a...](http://urbankchoze.blogspot.ca/2014/10/bad-habits-of-north-
american-cities_9.html)

------
carsongross
A strong, homogenous culture solves public trust problems (which are special
cases of the prisoner's dillema problem.)

Multiculturalism destroys social trust. America is the most culturally diverse
western nation, ergo it has the lowest public trust. As America continues to
diversify, and in as much as Europe does so, we can expect social trust to
continue to decline.

See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam)

~~~
jazzyk
Not true. Many more things in the anglo-saxon culture (GB, US, Canada,
Australia) are trust-based - your signature is usually good as gold, unlike
continental Europe which requires tons of affidavits, ceremonial seals,
additional paperwork, etc.

All of the above anglo-saxon countries are multicultural. Continental Europe
has been mostly homogeneous (until recently, but still).

~~~
IkmoIkmo
> continental Europe which requires tons of affidavits, ceremonial seals,
> additional paperwork, etc.

Like what and like where, specifically? (Dutch here, can't really confirm or
come up with examples that'd match that).

> All of the above anglo-saxon countries are multicultural. Continental Europe
> has been mostly homogeneous

The generalisations are too broad, putting say France in the same category as
Poland makes no sense. Canada/US/Australia are of course in a diversity
category of their own as de facto lands of immigrants (although that
overstates diversity, I think. Dutch and British heritage in Canada is a
pretty meaningless difference nowadays as a proxy of heterogeneity of
society), but I feel GB's diversity is pretty similar to various European
countries. It's hard to make exact comparisons due to different data points.
It seems outside of the anglo-saxon world, most governments (urged by
sociologists) have let go of defining demographics in terms of 'race'
(whatever that means) or skin color, but rather based on ethnicity or
heritage. So in GB you get things like white and black and asian (with the
latter data often split into India/Pakistani) and in the Netherlands or France
you'll get things like 'parents both French born, one parent foreign born,
parents both foreign born', with all kinds of splits for nationality. It's
hard to compare but I feel GB's multiculturalism is pretty similar to say
France or the Netherlands just to take an example.

------
mianos
The paranoia is commonly considered as a result of wider media coverage. Every
single national and, often, international media covers most child abductions.
This widening of coverage gives the, incorrect, impression that child
abductions are on the rise. Statistics suggest they are falling rapidly in
modern times. .. Citations are left as an exercise for the reader. Personally,
I feel the lack of diligence on parents by parents in teaching children safety
around roads is probably the last bastion of letting the little critters roam
free. (Wait for the lights in _all_ cases when with your children. Never walk
behind cars, if in any way possible, stopped or moving.

------
zanethomas
i grew up in pasadena, ca in the 50s when i was 5 i walked many blocks to
kindergarten

in the first grade i took the public bus halfway across town and then walked a
few blocks

someone offered me candy and a ride one time, i declined

has something changed?

~~~
selectodude
I think the only thing that's changed nobody offers people candy and a ride
anymore. I was taking public transportation all over, including to school, by
myself growing up in Chicago, and never ran into a single issue other than the
fact that the CTA sucks.

------
seesomesense
Young children walking to school is common here in Australia. It is not
considered the slightest bit newsworthy.

I live opposite a primary school. Everyday I see children who must be 6 or 7
years old walk to it.

I guess that it is all to do with the level of criminality in the general
community. The USA does have a homicide rate and a violent crime rate that is
significantly higher than than of many other rich nations.

------
jordigh
I used to go out alone as a kid in Mexico City, but only within walking
distance of my home. I was 12 the first time I rode public transportation on
my own. Nothing ever happened to me, but within my social class it was seen as
dangerous and unusual that my parents would let me ride the metro and peseros
alone (I used to go to the most expensive private school in Mexico City).

------
mc32
One thing the article failed to mention directly is the shared monoculture.
Their culture is such that some aspects of it are observed by most people
there.

As they mention, young children are involved early on with community work.
They also have instilled compliance from an early age --ever notice all the
voice commands everywhere? In school, at the subway, at the combini, at the
depato, at the escalator. It's pervasive and it results in a society
homogenous in many aspects. Of course, there are dissidents and outcasts and
otaku and non-conformists, but most observe core attitudes.

I think this contributes to the way they can have a degree of dependability on
others. That's not to say there aren't deviants and people who take advantage
of the norms. But to borrow from their vocabulary, they are unique, in some
ways, and I don't think it's transplantable.

------
kailuowang
I am from China, I go to school alone since 6. Most other kids do that since
7. That was some decades ago. Now I live in U.S. it has become unthinkable to
me, mostly because the lack of gun control and the number of gun owners who
are so ready to fire their weapons in public.

------
Mz
Previously:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10320944](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10320944)

------
dripton
I walked to kindergarten alone at age 5, in the US. In the 1970s, when there
was much more crime than there is today.

I mostly blame cable news for helicopter parenting. The data shows that there
is much less violent crime than there was 40 years ago, but when something bad
does happen and cable news jumps all over the story, it creates a false
impression of the world being a very dangerous place.

------
Yabood
I think its cultural thing, nothing more. All kids in Iraq and neighboring
countries sent their kids to school alone. Public schools didn't have any
transportation, so you pretty much had to walk to school regardless of where
you lived. I was lucky that my school was only a mile away.

Kids who had their parents walk them to school were made fun of, which is why
I think its a cultural thing.

------
pavornyoh
This was posted and discussed at length on October 2nd
here..[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10320944](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10320944)

------
rtz12
Isn't that pretty normal? I walked to school alone my whole life. Walk to the
bus stop, take the bus to school, walk to the school. Pretty usual.

------
somberi
In Manhattan I see bunch of kids in the subway going to their school on their
own. They make the subway compartment so noisy I usually avoid it :)

------
curiousjorge
you can drop your wallet a hundred times and people in Korea and Japan will
return it to you.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWW4xzlrOWQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWW4xzlrOWQ)

I've heard reactions from Canadians who go to Korea or Japan and they are
puzzled that nobody would steal, even if wallet was bulging with cash and the
guy was passed out on the streets, he doesn't have to worry.

To me this is the success of a homogenous neo-confucius brings order in
society. Self reflection and honor prevents a cesspool of cultures ready to
rip each others throats from forming.

I ponder if Western societies can continue to function if they just keep
letting anyone of any background and culture in especially when they choose
not to integrate and shout 'racism' when they have to do something that
requires the slightest bit of thinking and respect.

Sometimes I look at my city, shootings, the violence, gangs, mental illnesses
and ponder what life would've been like in Korea or Japan.

~~~
kuschku
I’ll tell you a story that happened in a... well, not very good district of a
German 300k people city. A district with 44% migrants, and 42% unemployed, and
some of the highest crime rates of Germany.

I was 18, it was the day after I finished my final high school exams, I had
partied with a few girls, most went home, 2 of us – me and a friend – were
trying to find a place to drink something. We ended up at some gas station, as
all other stores were closed, and tried to buy alcohol.

Some people were standing there, too, waiting in a queue, some of them
migrants, some obviously homeless, some kinda nice dressed.

A friend of mine tried to pay with her EC card, and was too drunk to use it or
enter her PIN – so she asked if someone of the other crowd would be able to
help her (I, myself, was also quite drunk). So she gave this guy her wallet,
told him to "take out the yellow EC card, PIN is 2814"[1], and indeed, he did
this.

They – also wanting to buy alcohol – asked us if we wanted to follow them to a
nearby party. We did, and ended up having a fun night playing singstar with
them.

    
    
        --------------------------------
    

In Conclusion:

It’s not ethnicity, or social class, or homogenity that leads or prevents
crime.

We’ve done similar things not once, but several times. And you know what?
Never was anything stolen.

Once I forgot a jacket, and couldn’t remember where anymore – next morning
someone had posted the jacket onto a facebook group of the city with 60k users
and I was able to get it back.

    
    
        --------------------------------
    

[1]: PIN changed for obvious reasons

~~~
curiousjorge
that has no relevance here. Germany vs North America for gods sakes.

------
mlvljr
Was same in USSR for me (starting from the 1st grade, age 7) :)

~~~
trhway
ditto. Both parents were working like the majority of the parents back then in
the USSR, and there were no chance for them to get us to and from school. And
outside of school, we were roaming streets and forest/seashore around the city
completely on our own.

