

Is New York's Tech Boom Sustainable? (PG asks) - donohoe
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/is-new-york-a-fertile-breeding-ground-for-start-ups/?src=twr

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bcantrill
In my experience, the only people who weigh in on these debates are those who
do not live in Silicon Valley -- like any epicenter for anything, those of us
who have made our careers here hardly give a damn how the rest of the world
compares themselves to us. (Or to put this another way: New Yorkers do not sit
around debating if or that New York is the world's epicenter for finance.) But
as someone who has grown slightly sick of the pro-NYC mania, I feel obliged to
enter the fray -- if only because Silicon Valley is being misunderstood at an
essential level.

While I agree that New York has displaced Boston, it is no threat to Silicon
Valley's crown: New York does adequately at some variants of software service
startups (e.g., the Foursquares of the world), but it is missing virtually
every other element of the ecosystem. There is no microprocessor company in
NYC. There is no network equipment provider in NYC. There is no computer
company in NYC. There is no handset maker in NYC. There is no cloud company in
NYC. Yes, Google may have a large presence in NYC, but Intel has a large
presence in Portland; a single company's large presence cannot in and of
itself create an ecosystem. And that ecosystem is the difference between
having a "vibrant tech scene" and being the world's epicenter for
technological innovation; NYC may be the former, but is unlikely to ever
displace Silicon Valley as the latter.

~~~
pitdesi
I wholeheartedly agree that NYC is no threat to Silicon Valley. That being
said, for my individual startup, why the hell should I care if there is a
microprocessor company, network equipment provider, computer company, etc etc
etc? I can't think of very many of the hot startups discussed on this forum
where it matters to have those things in the vicinity.

~~~
bcantrill
That you don't care highlights the difference between Silicon Valley and
everywhere else. Here, even the so-called "hot" startups are no more than two
or three hops away from the tech giants -- and that absolutely informs our
collective thinking: we know how to build billion dollar tech companies
because so many of us have worked for them.

~~~
achompas
Be wary of confirmation bias. It can be argued that SV alums can build
billion-dollar tech companies because they receive the financial backing of
those tech companies. That's not an intractable problem for a city with lots
of money like NYC.

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tryitnow
I think the negatives Graham cites outweigh the positives. Ultimately, "nerdy
visionaries" win out over "rapacious dealmakers."

The culture is just too different and I just don't mean the business culture.
It's reflected in all walks of life.

For example, let's take dating. In NYC if you're not making money or on the
very fast track to doing so then you might as well not exist. In my experience
dating in the Bay Area women are much more accepting of guys who are working
on something long term that may or may not payoff (not saying this is always
the case, just moreso than other cities I've lived in).

In short, in the Bay Area you get points for being a creative doer, in NYC you
get points for already having money in your bank account. The Bay Area culture
is just more conducive and accepting of the trials and tribulations of startup
life.

~~~
jbooth
As far as culture, NYC's the most entrepreneurial place in the country,
period. Half of the stuff I buy comes from a small business, whereas most of
the country is buying from big box stores, chain restaurants, etc. Every cab
driver, coffee stand and hot dog stand is a small business.

And as far as dating, man, half of brooklyn is underemployed with a band and a
startup idea. Just get some flannel shirts and jean-shorts, you're good to go
with that story. If you're actually legitimate about it, all the better.

~~~
rockarage
" half of brooklyn is underemployed with a band and a startup idea "

I voted this up just for that, I'm part of that crowd, people outside of NYC
don't know how true this is, awesome.

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grimtrigger
After the talk, I had a lot of time to meditate about this on the train back
home.

Yes, I think it'll happen, but it won't look anything like the valley.

When I was aiming at a finance job, I had two recruiters from two separate
banks tell me one of the qualities they look for is an entrepreneurial spirit.
Of course, they want you to be entrepreneurial with other peoples money and
forfeit the reward to your employer. This is the attitude that creates a city
overflowing with smart, ambitious, miserable people. Thats a powderkeg ready
to be lit.

They key will be getting the financial services industry on board. If there
was an incubator run by Goldman Sachs, kids at NYU and Columbia would start
talking about startups like the kids at Stanfard do.

~~~
rockarage
The kids behind _Diaspora are NYU students. There is a lot of people working
on startups in NYC.

_<https://joindiaspora.com/>

------
dr_
"distractions of city life" is no understatement. What makes NYC quite a fun
place to visit or live in also detracts from it becoming a serious contender
to the Valley. It's a city of bankers who have, or traditionally have had,
tons of money to throw around, and the restaurants, nightclubs and realtors
who serve them. Everyone else has been mostly ancillary. Maybe that will
change. Maybe one of the startups here will go public and become the next
Google or Facebook, but I really don't see those types of people working in
the city. It seems like even at Google, the more serious engineers are pulled
back to the Valley. And despite it's reportedly growing membership rolls, I'm
pretty doubtful about foursquare's future as well - and I honestly think it
may have had a good one if it was HQ'ed in the Valley. The reported advantages
of NYC - such as the ability to just roll into the offices of media or
advertising companies or fashion houses, so you can cut deals with them - are
largely myths.

~~~
donohoe
Strongly disagree.

Seattle has distractions. SF has distractions. Any city with population >
200,00 has its share of distractions. Might be booze, and parties, or it might
be hiking and the outdoors.

I lived and worked in NYC for 10 years. Bankers? Yeah, a big part of the citys
blood. However they were always secondary to the tech scene which was
primarily startup and media.

    
    
      The reported advantages of NYC - such as the ability 
      to just roll into the offices of media or advertising 
      companies or fashion houses, so you can cut deals with 
      them - are largely myths.
    

Nope. Seen it first hand. It happens from my viewpoint, not sure how prolific
but not a 'myth'

~~~
avree
As someone who's lived on both coasts, I think that the major difference
between NY and SF 'distractions' is that the West Coast distractions are
generally more 'related' to tech.

When I go out to any random bar in SOMA, I'm likely to meet mainly
tech/startup people. It's a very insular community.

In NYC, you're more likely to meet a wider breadth of people—which can be good
or bad, depending on what you're looking for and what kind of person you are.

~~~
po
_In NYC, you're more likely to meet a wider breadth of people—which can be
good or bad, depending on what you're looking for and what kind of person you
are._

I think you can make an argument that as internet technology takes a larger
roll in people's lives and becomes more mainstream, having a diversity of
skills in your company will become more necessary as well.

------
EastCoastLA
After being one of the 800 people in the room last night, I found it
exhilarating that so many locals were interested in developing start-ups. What
was some type of founder "dating". I was interested in healthcare and
technology and randomly found a few individuals last night in the crowd. That
random start-up up luck is what PG spoke of last night and was created
artificially at the YCNYC last night. It happens all the time "in the wild" in
Silicon Valley, as a by product of the culture. What we needed is similar type
events and culture change in NYC to make such events more accessible and
common place.

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michaelpinto
Tonight Paul Graham got me more excited about doing a startup in NYC than I've
been since the 90s. I don't expect NYC to be silicon valley, nor do I want it
to be -- there's enough about this town that makes it special. I was also very
encouraged by seeing locals who went through the Y Combinator program -- it
was truly energizing. I frankly don't understand how a reporter for the Times
can even ask the question...

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javek
When you think long-term, to me you can't escape the fact that SC is a small
suburban community when compared to a mega-city like NYC. SC started out with
a big advantage due to Stanford, and NYC has had large disadvantages to
overcome in the past 4 decades due to crime, the collapse of the manufacturing
sector, etc. (I read somewhere that until the early 70's NYC had more
manufacturing jobs than Detroit due to textiles, etc., which really puts the
speed of the shift in NYC's economy in perspective.) NYC has largely solved
these disadvantages - it is now a very safe place to live and has an economy
based on services, which means it is stocked full of smart ambitious people.

When people are what's important, whether they are customers, engineers, or
whatever else, how can a suburb compete? To me it seems analgous to the fact
that the tiny island of England could never sustain dominance over the world
in the face of competition with a much larger and more diverse America.

------
achompas
This is the perfect example of a false dichotomy. Why can't both cities thrive
as tech centers with different approaches? Why does NYC have to supersede SV
(or why does SV have to stomp NYC)?

I'll posit an alternative: NYC ends up being an amazing hub for startups
focusing on social (Foursquare, Tumblr, Etsy), fashion (Gilt Groupe), finance
(HFT boutiques and small hedge funds), and education. SV, meanwhile, continues
kicking ass.

PG always talks about margins, so consider: would the marginal company that
barely succeeds in SV fail in NYC? Does anyone really believe that NYC lacks
the financial or technological serendipity Graham mentioned last night? After
living here for a month and hustling like crazy to talk to people, I'd argue
NYC is full of opportunity.

I'd also argue PG's talk yesterday aimed to generate media buzz (see today's
NYT article, TC, etc.) and publicity for YC. That's a conversation for another
thread.

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sayemm
I'm not going to comment about this comparison between SV and NYC, but I think
it's really interesting how PG mentions that bit about Zuck crossing paths
with Sean Parker. It reminds me of this clip from Stanford ecorner about how
Max Levchin and Peter Theil randomly met one day at Terman -
<http://ecorner.stanford.edu/authorMaterialInfo.html?mid=1022>

I think Paul Buchheit said it best regarding serendipity -
[http://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2010/10/serendipity-
finds-y...](http://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2010/10/serendipity-finds-
you.html)

------
mdda
What NYC needs is a few local cash-outs for entrepreneurs (without them having
to move to SV to do so). And then those entrepreneurs to reinvest in local
startups. That's the positive reinforcement loop that takes place in SV, and I
think that it's required for lift-off to be achieved.

As an aside, the UK suffers the same problem : There's a ton of money in
London (similar to NYC) chasing financial opportunities, but those
opportunities distract people from the high risk / high return technology bets
that are commonplace on the West Coast. That was one bright feature of HP
buying Autonomy in the UK, except for the questionmarks now hanging over HP...

~~~
gyardley
Not sure why the comment underneath this one was killed, but there's been a
lot of large exits in the advertising space, and the people have gone on to
invest in additional startups.

A case in point: I worked for Right Media, and then left after its acquisition
by Yahoo to found a company that took angel money from (among others) the
former CEOs of Quigo and TACODA.

HN just has a curious blind spot when it comes to advertising technology,
which is something NYC does quite well.

------
tarekayna
At ycnyc tonight, I would have liked a show of hands of how many people came
from outside NYC to attend this event. I came from Seattle, and I met a decent
number of people from Boston, Philly and other cities.

~~~
One_adm12
Welcome to NY from another Seattle-ite. Was at the event last night, didn't
meet you though...

------
One_adm12
PG. I was at the NYCYC meetup last night and I don't understand all the
attention of the valley vs. New York. The startup economy is not zero sum
game. It doesn't matter which location is #1, There are plenty of dollars to
go around and other then competing for dev and other resources (which while
difficult is not the biggest hurdle a start up is going to face) what's the
point of the discussion? Cities aren't threats to each other, it's not like
the port of Philly competing with the port of NY/NJ. Shipping is a zero sum
game, startups aren't.

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EastCoastLA
Will they post a list of all the attendees from last nights event in some type
of directory?

I know the whiteboard was posted before the event, but many people I meet last
night did not fill it out and did not know about it.

#ycnyc Growing list of attendees: <http://123.writeboard.com/wtbsn341igep2zvx>
\- Pwd: Second full word of invitation e-mail and sender first name.
lcase/nospace

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nydev
Seems that most (all?) of the start-up developer job openings posted on HN are
based in SV. I wonder if there is another site like HN for NYC start-ups to
advertise positions.

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rdl
When did YC move to Menlo Park? Did they just make that up, or is it due to a
legal address of a law firm or something?

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maratd
> Is New York's Tech Boom Sustainable?

Why, yes, yes it is. The talk was very enjoyable, but the entire event felt
like a sales pitch for NYC businesses to scoot over to Cali for the better
weather and opportunities.

Aside from Valley elitism, there is absolutely no reason why Y Combinator
shouldn't have an operation in NYC. In fact, it's about time.

~~~
dorkitude
I think I could name several reasons not to start a second branch when the
mothership is doing so well, regardless of the locations involved.

~~~
maratd
Please do. Most entities expand when they are successful.

~~~
dorkitude
YC has expanded, but in a centralized fashion.

When it comes to expanding to NYC (which amounts to _doubling_ the number of
offices), here are some considerations off the top of my head:

* To have double the # of locations, you would need to hire a bunch more partners in order to double the sum talent/experience in your pool for Office Hours (lest the talent/experience density be diminished, harming YC and all its companies). But it's not just about sum talent/experience, because there's a big chunk of experience that no startup vet out there has: experience being a YC partner.

* YC dinners are about connections. To maintain the same quality of connections in a second location, the new partners would of course have to be as connected and as trusted in NYC as are the SV partners in SV.

* Launch emails (AKA the YC "press release") are typically written by PG. There is only one PG, and perhaps he can't or doesn't want to write twice as many launch emails every year. For all we know, going from ~8 potential launches to ~40 may have pushed him to the limit. If PG were made to write twice as many, he would only be half as intimate with each company.

* One of YC's most valuable assets is the reputation of its selection filter. If YC were to accept twice as many startups (assuming twice the # of applicants, of course), the partners and advisors running its current selection process would need to be either mirrored in NYC or overworked remotely. Again, this is a finely-tuned machine, and it's not as simple as "hire 5-10 smart startup vets and stick them in NYC to start interviewing candidates".

TL;DR: While I'm sure YC has considered (and are perhaps still considering)
expanding to NYC, for you to claim that you understand their business better
than they do is presumptuous. To suggest that "elitism" is YC's rationale for
staying in SV is insulting, and to suggest that it is the sole _potential_
rationale is woefully lacking in vision.

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iamelgringo
Why is it a competition? Why is it NYC vs SV? Why can't it be both?

