
Ask HN: Any advice for an early startup employee who feels screwed and lonely? - toocool
Hi,<p>2.5 years ago I joined a startup in SF as one of the very first employees. The offer was quite ridiculous, but after doing tons of work and becoming a key element I was able to negotiate again my compensation, and now I have north of 1% ISOs and 165k salary. My role is heavily technical, I built most of the core at the beginning and now I spend my day leading a few teams in the company (the company size is 35 people).<p>The main problem is that I feel this inner conflict that is deepening every day: I can witness that my productivity and my contribution to the company is huge, but I don&#x27;t get any satisfaction out of it because I feel like my slice of the pie is way smaller than what I think I deserve.<p>Also, I feel very lonely in this matter, because all my coworkers are either more junior, less talented or less ambitious than me, and so for them the simple joy of working on interesting problems and getting an equity of 0.0x % is more than enough.<p>Some solutions I can think of might be:<p>1) Get a better title (VP of engineering): this is going to be absolutely hard. The founders are extremely stingy and so are the investors, and I&#x27;ve been repeatedly told that in order to aspire to a VP role for a company with our traction you need to have a previous curriculum, which obviously I don&#x27;t have since this is my first startup experience (I&#x27;m 28).<p>2) Leave: this one would make sense if it wasn&#x27;t for the ISOs. If I had to leave and exercise my vested share of options, I would have to pay an incredible amount of taxes (because our valuation increased) for a liquidation event that might happen years from now, or never.<p>3) Ask more money&#x2F;equity: knowing myself, this would make me genuinely happy for about a year or so, and so might be reasonable. The problem is convincing the founders (and the investors) would be very draining, since I&#x27;m already the highest paid technical person.<p>Have you ever gone through something like this?<p>Thanks for reading.
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carsongross
I would say this: it is never as bad as it seems and it is never as good as it
seems. Startups are very hard on everyone, despite the smiles and glowing
press. What you are feeling is natural, and a lot of close-to-founder
employees go through it. (Founders do too.)

Tactically, at your age and at that level of comp, I would stick it out for a
few more years or until it became clear that the ISO's were not going to be
worth anything, which ever came first. Jumping ship almost always seems more
attractive that it turns out to be in actuality.

I would also recommend some sort of stoic philosophy. I am a Christian, but
there are plenty of other options: zen, greek, etc. At the end of the day,
none of this shit really matter that much, and, additionally, it's all pretty
funny if you can get some mental space between yourself and the situation.

Good luck.

~~~
yitchelle
> I would also recommend some sort of stoic philosophy. I am a Christian, but
> there are plenty of other options: zen, greek, etc.

I highly recommend getting some of this advice to work for you. Having a
different view on situation will definitely help "soften" the tough situation
that you feel you are in.

In a similar vein, I have consider what my salary/job has provided me, it gave
me opportunity to experience other cultures, provided my family the financial
resources to be secure and look after their health. Sometimes, I feel that I
am being greedy if I chase for more money.

------
jfaucett
I've been through a similiar situation and ultimately decided to leave. For me
it boiled down to my gut feeling and me not wanting to pour more of my heart
and soul into something I couldn't be genuinely passionate about anymore
(partially due to ISOs / salary / titles on the table).

My advice is to ask yourself some hard questions and then follow your gut
feeling. If you are discontented you are not going to perform at your best, it
will affect your life negatively, and this will only get worse with time. So
ask yourself the hard questions. If nothing changes do you really want to stay
there? If no, then what will have to change in order for you to stay and be
happy? You know yourself, decide what it is that will make you happy and
otherwise you would be happier leaving.

Remember its just a business transaction, they profit from your skills and
labor and you profit from the money and titles and equity they give you in
exchange for it. I have the feeling a lot of startups will come along with the
stingy spiel, but they have to pay up for services like everyone else and if
they aren't willing you move along, also equity and titles cost a startup only
theoretically (if they ever liquidate which is a rare thing) so even stingy
investors etc will probably be more willing to upgrade you here than in the
salary department since that cost real money next month.

Good luck

------
readme
Dude. You make 165k. More money isn't going to make you happy. A job is a job,
and you have a damn good one. What else is going on in your life besides that?

~~~
jfaucett
"A job is a job, and you have a damn good one"

Please don't forget the cost of living before assuming the OP is some
privilegiado who is unhappy being filthy rich.

According to this ([http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/city_result.jsp?country...](http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/city_result.jsp?country=United+States&city=San+Francisco%2C+CA)) a 1
bedroom apartment outside the city runs 31.5k a year thats about 20% of OPs
salary. If he wanted a 3 bedroom in the city it would run 78k a year. By
comparison someone living in Berlin will pay about 8k a year for rent of a 1
bedroom in the city.

So his 165k is roughly like someone earning 40k a year in Berlin. This isn't
exact of course because of other factors such as utilities, food, etc, but
comparing these costs to other locations it does look to be more expensive on
these factors as well.

~~~
smeyer
>This isn't exact of course

This is very far from exact. You're comparing a city with particularly high
real estate costs to one with relatively low real estate costs (for the size
of the city). Spending 20% of gross on rent is not particularly extreme, and
factors like utilities, food, travel, and so on are not going to have remotely
the multiplier that real estate does when comparing costs to Berlin.

Yes, 165k in SF is not like 165k in Berlin, but for a person without
dependents it still leaves a lot of room for large savings or expensive
luxuries. The median household income in SF is just $78k.

------
trowawhey
I feel like I could have written that. I can tell you what I've done, but I'd
be overstating it to call it advice.

I've been a huge contributor to my current company, but as the first employee,
even 3% of our stock feels stingy. I've easily contributed more than a high-
equity founder (by everyone, including other cofounders', assessment). Also
going through the "well, we can't pay you more because we can't afford it"
rigmarole and not even getting the title consolation prize. Similarly feeling
trapped by the whole mess.

I frankly think it was a poor decision for me to join the company, and I can't
see myself taking another early employee position unless it's fully
compensated (either much more equity than is traditional, or a market salary),
which doesn't seem to be the norm, despite outsized risk.

I've found consulting to be a good outlet for ambition and way to make up for
disappointing compensation. I also enjoy working on side projects with the
intent of commercializing them.

~~~
toocool
Consulting might as well be an option, if I just had more free time. The
problem is that we are still early enough that I have to work a lot, and it
completely drains my professional energy (nowhere close to a burnout, a
"healty" draining)

~~~
seekingcharlie
By "consulting", I believe they mean leaving your job and consulting full-
time. That way you are in charge of your own schedule and salary.

------
jnardiello
Disclaimer: I never went through a similar situation.

To me it sounds like that you have built the core platform for someone else,
as an employee, and you have been rewarded for your work. Problem is: you are
an employee and you are tired of that.

My feeling is that what you are really saying is that you would like to do
your own thing, but the current situation is too economically stable and good
to just give it up. How about keeping consistent with your current role and
start working on a pet project? Might sound like an obvious advice but it does
really make sense to me given your situation :)

~~~
toocool
Thanks for your reply. That's an incredibly sound advice, and I feel like I
missed a detail in my post: the contribution that I'm giving to this company
is requiring me to work a lot (not like crazy, but let's say a good average of
50 hours a week), so I really don't have the spare bandwidth to start a
serious pet project that could lead somewhere else than just simply playing
with some technology for the sake of it.

~~~
gscott
You are doing well enough to save to do your own project to do later..
Eventually this company will move on from your work, even though it seems
impossible now, they are quietly trying to figure out a way to do so. When
they do, just be keeping your expenses low now and low in the future so you
are not dependent upon a job. I have made the mistake of becoming "invaluable"
and every time the company management works to find a way to replace me
because they want to show they are in charge and are not dependent upon any
one single person even if it is not in their best interest to do so.

~~~
zippy786
This is so true. If you are very unhappy and working hard, you may also be
leading towards a burnout. A corporation (big or small) does not have a heart,
always think about yourself first because from experience I know a company
will do the same when time comes. Do what is right for you and your health.
When you try to make a decision for yourself, don't forget to put a price on
the happiness that you will get when you wake up every morning. Sometimes all
it takes is a month or two of happiness and a change and you start doing
amazing things for yourself again.

------
omegote
I quite don't get why you're complaining with such a compensation, seriously.
$165.000, goddamn. I'm 27 and I barely make 1/8 of that a year, being a full
stack web developer, in Spain. And here you are, complaining. Sometimes I
think you guys in the US live in another world. Better yet, you should try to
live in another country. You'd quickly earn how inflated the startup scene
salaries are in the US.

~~~
brazzledazzle
Ignoring the difference in salaries due to markets for a moment: This is
obviously about respect and acknowledgement concerning this person's
contribution.

That said, if you don't already you must learn that cost of living and the job
market have a huge impact on compensation and can vary dramatically from
region to region in a country. Different countries entirely are literally a
world apart. If you do already know this your comment can only be taken as
sour grapes.

Even giving you the benefit of the doubt concerning that still makes your
comment a bit shitty. You have a skill that can be used not just remotely to
get paid more, but as a basis for immigrating to a country that can pay you
what you're worth. Yes, that's easier said than done but if you want something
more you can get it with hard work and some elbow grease.

------
dfraser992
What is --actually-- motivating you to stay?

I was hired, by a friend of a friend, to build a website. I was told
"prototype", MVP, "ad supported".. "we'll find investors". As a contractor,
fine, just pay me.

4 years later, after a customer threatened to sue for being defrauded, I
finely wised up. I had been strung along with late payments for 4 years, the
work kept piling up, I begged for help (it was just me doing all the technical
work)... and the wife of the CEO let it slip they were doing 6 figures in
revenue. I had gotten so obsessed with the work, that I fell into my OCD and
did not pay attention to the business side of my "business".

4 years of near-burnout... and the guy who introduced me to this £$%£% finally
decided to tell me he knew for a fact the CEO had a history of criminal
behavior (i.e. fraud).

It was a harsh lesson in my blindspots. I learned a lot from a personal angle
but it cost me 6 years of my life (to recover from the burnout as well). I got
at the root of my OCD like behavior though. I was the same way - just a little
more work, it'll all be over, the money, money, get all the invoices paid and
quit... but it took a real crisis to slap me upside the head.

Not to say your founders are psychopaths, but look at it from their POV.
You're just the hired help. It's not profitable to make you happy from a
monetary perspective and you aren't taking advantage of the power you may not
know you have (my biggest mistake).

If you're in business with someone, ruthlessness, however polite, is the only
option (the CEO a year after I quit, -abandoned- his family and now is in a
big legal battle with his wife who funded the company).

Ruthlessness is sometimes the only way to get respect from people, and I infer
this may be part of your problem.

\-- But I may be projecting my issues onto your situation --

So that is why I ask - what are the possible deeper psychological issues that
are keeping you stuck? I know this inner conflict you speak of very well, and
until I really understood the fundamental reasons why I put up with all the
shit, I drove myself crazy.

hope this helps...

~~~
brazzledazzle
Even if the founders aren't sociopaths they will be pressured by themselves
and their investors to do what's best for them and the whole time someone will
be telling them that "business is business". If people can rationalize
committing genocide they will easily rationalize screwing you over.

------
vii
Rationally, employees can get at most at their replacement cost, more or less.
As you have built up experience in your present role and made yourself a 'key
element', you should be compensated more highly than other companies will
offer you for the same sort of work. If that's not the case, then you are
right that you are underpaid - just accept one of those offers, or negotiate
again on that basis. There are plenty of roles in the Bay Area where technical
people can make more than 165k with salary being just a part of total
compensation - and you can decide how any opportunities you can find line up
with your current levels. If you can't get more elsewhere then you should feel
better about it :)

You could try to demonstrate that you were a key value generator by doing a
new startup without the other people who have a slice of this one :)

As to whether you deserve it or not, that's a tough one.

------
Jemaclus
Assuming no pay increase, titles are free. If you're already managing the tech
teams, then you should be able to get the VP Eng title with little problem.
It's a win-win situation for them, too: you're happier with the nicer title,
it costs them nothing, and it looks better on your resume when you choose to
leave.

If you want VP of Engineering and a pay raise, that's another story
altogether... Sounds like you fought the pay battle already. I'd push for a
better title.

The few comments posted before this one are valid and good advice. Stick it
out, and keep pushing for the things you want. Good luck!

~~~
toocool
From my understanding, titles are not free at all: they present an opportunity
cost, especially when the company is on the right trajectory. Promoting
someone to VP means that there will not be room to bring a VP from the outside
with a track record of successes, one that most of the times the investors
themselves are pushing to bring into the company.

~~~
startupvet
Not true. Titles and roles change all the time. You can absolutely be the VP
of Engineering and if and when they need/want a "real" VP of Engineering you
can become for example, the VP of Infrastructure Engineering reporting to the
VP of Engineering. I doubt that they have any formal structured options
framework so don't let them use that trick, if they do mention it, have them
show it to you right at that moment, because if they can't it means they don't
have it yet.

Anything worth having is worth fighting to have. To quote Bill Gates in the
Simpson's episode, "I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks." That's how
the founders think. Getting what you want will be like taking a gazelle away
from a hungry crocodile.

~~~
brazzledazzle
Or they could pull the good ol' "SVP of Engineering hired to be the actual
VP". If they do that you're in trouble since you're directly in the new guy's
way because you're between him and the people he wants to directly
manage/reorganize. But at that point you may as well take the hint and leave.

------
zeeshanm
Given you are able to land a job at another company making $180K++ it would
only add a few more hundred dollars to your bank account after taxes. If I
were you I would not optimize for that unless I am after collecting a few more
hundred dollars every two weeks.

In reality, the only way to optimize for the best returns for your time is to
start something yourself. There is __no__ other way.

------
dennybritz
> I don't get any satisfaction out of it because I feel like my slice of the
> pie is way smaller than what I think I deserve.

Have you considered that you may be looking at the issue from the wrong angle?
You are unhappy with your work, and it may seem like compensation is the cause
of that, but there's a good chance that it isn't. Getting a better title and
more compensation may satisfy you for a while, but it's quite likely feel just
the same after a little while.

Obviously I don't know anything about you or your work, but there are a few
points that stood out to me:

\- It seems like the company management does not respect you as much as you'd
like them to and this makes you angry.

\- You say that you are the most senior/experienced engineer in the company,
so you're missing a chance to learn from someone else. Personally this has
been a major incentive for me to stick with a company/team.

Then there's the question of what you _actually_ want to be doing in the next
2-5 years and how your current job helps you towards that goal. Have you ever
had that conversation with the founders? As someone else mentioned, being an
employee is a business transaction. Money is part of what you get, but the
perhaps more important part is how the company can help you achieve your
professional goals. It seems like it really isn't in your case. Could this be
the reason for why you feel demotivated?

------
quickpost
I've been struggling with a decision about whether to leave consulting and
join a startup as an early employee under similar terms. After reading your
post and many of the comments within, I have been able to trust my gut a lot
more confidently and stick with owning 100% of my own small operation. So at
the very least take solace in the fact that your post helped others out in
making better startup decisions!

------
hanniabu
Does the startup have technical founders? How many rounds of investment have
you guys taken on? How many employees have an equal or higher title than you?
Is your role in technical and possibly business development integral enough
where it would be really difficult to replace? Does the company have enough of
a runway to figure things out if you left?

~~~
toocool
> Does the startup have technical founders?

Yes, one.

> How many rounds of investment have you guys taken on?

Seed and Series A. A new round might be coming soon.

> How many employees have an equal or higher title than you?

On the technical side, nobody (except the founder), but that will change soon
as the engineering team is expanding.

> Is your role in technical and possibly business development integral enough
> where it would be really difficult to replace?

I like to think that it would be difficult enough, because of the know how
acquired from having worked from day 1 and for the potential contribution that
I can still give to the technical execution.

> Does the company have enough of a runway to figure things out if you left?

The company is well structured, so it will definitely survive, but that being
said I'm without doubts the employee who would cause the biggest, albeit
reparable, damage if he left.

Thanks

------
lacker
So there are 35 people. What's your role, exactly? Are you managing the entire
engineering team?

If getting more money/equity would only make you happy for another year, then
the money and the equity isn't the real problem here.

It sounds to me like the real problem is that management doesn't respect you
as much as you think you deserve. In particular, it would be quite reasonable
for a 35-person company to have a VP of Engineering. If that isn't you, then
it'll end up being someone else that they hire in above you.

My recommendation is to be open and honest about your frustration with your
manager, and if you don't see a path to being happy with your job without a
huge equity/pay bump, just move on. There isn't going to be any easy, obvious
solution here.

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6d0debc071
> Have you ever gone through something like this?

Yeah. For me it wasn't worth it. I could make enough in other companies -
where the opportunities for advancing were higher and where the work
environment was nicer - to get what I wanted out of life. So, the money was
more something that would have been nice to have if someone had offered it to
me out of the blue, but of itself didn't/wouldn't result in any significant
lasting increase in happiness by comparison to the alternatives.

------
chrisbennet
Have you considered becoming a (co)founder in you own company, thus capturing
more of the value you create?

Statistically, those ISOs won't be worth anything anyway and sticking around
to see them vest may just mean you put off moving to on to a place where you
are happier. One way to extract _some_ value from that stock is to use it to
negotiate a signing bonus at your next job.

------
wpietri
Hi!

For solution 1: Titles are based on what you are doing, not what you did at
some previous company. Go research typical roles and responsibilities at other
companies. If you are doing the VP work already (lots of personnel and process
work, in my experience), then show them that you meet the criteria and ask for
the title. If you aren't (or they disagree), tell them that you want to get
there and ask them for support. This might include classes, an executive
coach, and/or mentorship from other executives. Or you may discover that you
really want a different title (e.g., technical architect, or something higher
up the Google ladder [1]), in which case ask for that.

For solution 2, if you haven't already paid for an accountant who specializes
in this, please do.

For solution 3, you could also consider asking them for a one-off payment that
would let you collect some/all of your stock in exchange for staying on
another year. Then they don't have to mess with the salary structure, and they
also don't have to give away more equity.

I'll add that 1+% of equity does not sound bad for somebody who has always
collected a good paycheck and who does not have a senior title. Here are some
resources that can help you compare:

[http://avc.com/2010/11/employee-equity-how-
much/](http://avc.com/2010/11/employee-equity-how-much/)

[http://www.ackwire.com/jobs/engineering](http://www.ackwire.com/jobs/engineering)

[https://angel.co/salaries](https://angel.co/salaries)

[http://www.datarevelations.com/startup-cto-salary-qnd-
equity...](http://www.datarevelations.com/startup-cto-salary-qnd-equity-data-
us)

[https://www.wealthfront.com/tools/startup-salary-equity-
comp...](https://www.wealthfront.com/tools/startup-salary-equity-compensation)

I also saw a Riviera Partners report that put the average equity for A-round
VPs of engineering at 1.4%.

[1] [https://www.quora.com/As-of-2015-what-are-the-different-
leve...](https://www.quora.com/As-of-2015-what-are-the-different-levels-of-
software-engineers-at-Google)

------
karjaluoto
My bet is that the emptiness you feel has little to do with a title, or how
much you’re paid.

I suspect that it has everything to do with meaning/purpose.

Maybe you need to ditch the day job (regardless of consequence), move
somewhere cheap, and make something you care about.

Some of us aren’t meant to be employees.

------
argonaut
So the main problem is you think you deserve more of the pie. But at the same
time you think asking for more would be very draining. I don't see why you
shouldn't ask for more, especially if you're even considering leaving.

