
Race and Attraction, 2009 – 2014 - berkeleyjess
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/race-attraction-2009-2014/
======
Mikeb85
I think one factor they forgot to add is culture.

When you're firmly entrenched in a specific cultural background, often it can
be difficult to relate to someone who grew up in a different culture.

That being said, I'm white, married to a Caribbean woman (who herself is mixed
though very dark skinned). Her family still drives me insane though. To say
there are cultural differences would be a major understatement... And things I
consider normal behaviour are often perplexing to them as well.

~~~
someotheridiot
I'm white and married to a Vietnamese. The different culture in her family is
a big attraction to me, so much more interesting than boring same old.

~~~
e40
Same here. Like you, the initial attraction was the difference, but after a
good while, the differences have become much more annoying.

------
ignostic
I wonder what this would look like adjusted for income. The same author wrote
about how much income matters in online dating, especially when over 23 and
making less than 100k.[1]. Other studies have shown that income is unequal by
race, especially for high-paying jobs. (Unfortunately I'm struggling to find a
source showing _distribution_ rather than average, which is also lower[2].)

It'd also be interesting to see adjustments for height. I'd also think (see
[1]) that that's where Asian men get lower response rates.

[1] [http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-biggest-lies-in-
online...](http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-biggest-lies-in-online-
dating/) [2]
[http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882775.html](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882775.html)

~~~
kqr2
From [http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/single-
female...](http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/single-female-
seeking-same-race-male/)

    
    
      For equal success with an African-American woman, a 
      Hispanic man needs to earn an extra $184,000; a white man 
      needs to earn an additional $220,000.
    
      For equal success with a white woman, an African-American 
      needs to earn an additional $154,000; a Hispanic man 
      needs $77,000; an Asian needs $247,000.
    
      For equal success with a Hispanic woman, an African-
      American man needs to earn an additional $30,000; a white 
      man needs to earn an additional $59,000.
    
      For equal success with an Asian woman, an African-
      American needs no additional income; a white man needs 
      $24,000 less than average; a Hispanic man needs $28,000 
      more than average.

------
russellallen
Given that the racial categories used are American (White/Black/Asian/Latino)
I'm guessing this is only or mostly American data. In which case it probably
should say so. "Race" is a culturally mediated difference and the categories
of prejudice in other cultures aren't going to map to this in any universal
way.

Just a comment from someone not in the US :)

~~~
amake
As an American who's spent the last ~10 years in Japan, the American idea of
pan-Asian cultural/racial identity now feels extremely foreign to me.

~~~
vacri
As an Australian listening to a BBC interviewing a man about his Asian
upbringing, it sounded weird. An unqualified 'asian' to Australian ears means
South East Asian or Chinese. But to the British, it's apparently folks from
the subcontinent. In neither case does it default to mean near/middle eastern
or central asian.

------
pessimizer
As a black man, I'm proud to be the most egalitarian in romance. It really
boils down to whoever smiles at me and tells me I'm smart.

~~~
Byzantine
So basically, you accept just about anybody, because you have either low
standards or just want to be with as many woman as you can.

Not exactly classy, bro.

~~~
dang
Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News.

------
bittercynic
Many of the comments here focus on whether or not an individual's preferences
are racist or not, but generally an individual being racist isn't going to
cause anyone much trouble (except for extreme or violent cases.)

The major issue this illuminates is that the aggregate preferences of many
people confer an advantage to some and disadvantage to others based on race.
The value in having this highlighted so clearly is that some (many) people
think that racism is dead, and this gives us something to point to when we ask
them to reconsider that opinion.

~~~
Byzantine
The problem with today's liberal attitudes is that such attitudes
wrongheadedly assume that racism = violence, when in reality, racism usually
just means separatism, which if anything, decreases violence, as good fences
make good neighbors.

~~~
codygman
For racism == violence:

One particular racist doesn't have to commit violence. The effect is systemic,
and as a result law enforcement can be used to enforce violence on people of
color.

Picture yourself in a convenient store. A black male with a hoodie on is
shopping. You decide you don't like him, and notice an officer outside. You
tell the officer that the man is stealing items from the store.

What do you think is going to happen? What would happen with a white male? The
outcome you know would happen is what defines privilege.

~~~
guard-of-terra
"You decide you don't like him, and notice an officer outside. You tell the
officer that the man is stealing items from the store"

If I do that (with any "him") I'm a nut job, asylum material. Amn't I?

In my opinion that just does not happen by sane people.

~~~
codygman
My point is the fact that the situation outlined above is easily possible is a
huge problem.

~~~
guard-of-terra
To be fair, I don't really understand how it would resolve to anything than an
awkward scene.

However, I understand that americans are so trigger-happy that any confusion
can turn into tragedy.

------
colmvp
Yup, that's why it majorly sucks balls to be an Asian man in online dating.

~~~
hangonhn
Maybe? But the neat thing about romance is that you just need one to work.

I once complained to a friend that my failure rate is going to be 95% if the
normal failure rate is 80%. She replied, "Good then you'll succeed." because a
95% failure rate means there will still be 5 women out of 100 who won't reject
me and that number increases the more women I meet.

Another good friend of mine who can be best described as a womanizer told me
that it's a huge numbers game. He confided to me that he gets rejected all the
time and for all sorts of reasons, most of it has nothing to do with him. His
word of advice to me was "You got ten fingers, ten toes. There is nothing
wrong with you."

Sure, some women prefer one thing over another but you don't need all the
women to like you. You just need one. I am sure in the universe of women there
is at least one who likes Asian men who read Hacker News and you have a better
chance of finding her(or them) with online dating.

~~~
beachstartup
> Sure, some women prefer one thing over another but you don't need all the
> women to like you. You just need one

i understand where you're coming from but let's be real. in order to retain
the relationship(s) you are in, you need to understand what makes a man
attractive to a woman. it has nothing to do with race but more to do with
assertiveness, boundaries, ability to plan, get shit done, etc.

and if you have none of that, you better start working on it. "be yourself" is
the worst dating advice ever. and "one out of a million will end up maybe
liking you" is even worse.

~~~
hangonhn
I don't think we disagree on this. You should always work to improve yourself
and love is a great motivator for doing that.

My point with the number is that to go on a date, to be given that chance to
know someone better, isn't that hard even if the probabilities are low.

My 95% is actually crazy pessimistic. It actually ended up being closer to 50%
success rate for first date. I am short, Asian, and introverted so I think
most other men aren't going to do worse based on those attributes alone. Or
maybe like you said, race doesn't matter as much.

That said, I don't really agree with that list of attributes you posted. Maybe
on some level, yes those attributes matter but personal chemistry between two
people matters much more, at least from my own limited experience.

~~~
beachstartup
> Maybe on some level, yes those attributes matter but personal chemistry
> between two people matters much more

personal chemistry is required, but not sufficient.

these are things you learn the hard way.

------
beachstartup
nothing really shocking here, except that asian women rating asian men jumped
from +10% to +25% in the last 5 years. this is somewhat surprising as it puts
them at the same level that white women rate white men. (drag the slider all
the way to the right).

in other words, at least on okcupid, asian women rate white men and asian men
with roughly the same bias. that's a big swing in less than 10 years.

come to think of it, i haven't heard the familiar "i don't date asian guys"
come from an asian girl in a very long time, possibly years.

~~~
presty
I wonder how much of this is caused by OkCupid growing in Asia.

The study does not seem to be specific to the US...

~~~
beachstartup
that's a good point - curious as to what could possibly explain the drop in
white/white ratings though.

------
r0h1n
I'm amazed to note that black women face negative scores from men of all
races, including their own! That sounds really disturbing, at least to a non-
American.

~~~
colmvp
Asian men and Black women are similar in that they aren't married out to other
races at the same rate as their gender opposites.

Source:

[http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/02/sdt-2012-rise-o...](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/02/sdt-2012-rise-
of-intermarriage-06.png)

[http://imgur.com/V9w2k5m](http://imgur.com/V9w2k5m)

~~~
w1ntermute
That's because Asians are perceived as feminine, while blacks are seen as
masculine. Feminine men and masculine women aren't as attractive as masculine
men and feminine women.

------
thejdude
As a European I'm surprised by the very stark black-white separation in US
culture. Why do the two (almost) not mix, even after centuries?

During my student year in the US, I was friends with students of all colors -
culturally they were really the same. So what is it? Peer pressure?

Most young black women I see (over here) are incredibly beautiful, but then in
my country they're mostly fresh immigrants - the cultural difference would be
much stronger than a couple of White and Black Americans.

From watching TV my impressions are that there's especially a taboo for white
guys to date black women, and the prejudice that "vanilla" just isn't cool.
Can anyone enlighten me?

~~~
cyphunk
As an American living in Europe I'm surprised you could think that black-white
separation in the US is so stark in comparison to Europe. Racism always felt
like a European invention to me that the US just executes very well because
it's a country founded by a bunch of European rejects. By in large though
latent racism seems to be much stronger in the EU. They just aren't as
expressive about it because... 1. most EU cities are not diverse enough to
warrant much thought on the topic or even present an opportunity for division.
2. Europeans "respect" authority or their place more so the racists keep their
mouth shut. But when they do open their mouth, oh my

> From watching TV my impressions are that there's especially a taboo for
> white guys to date black women, and the prejudice that "vanilla" just isn't
> cool. Can anyone enlighten me?

For a European, or Northern European, black falls under exotic because it is
something so rare. Look at how your countrymen react to turkish, roma or other
migrant races of the EU and then you'll hopefully shed a bit of the elitism.

~~~
thejdude
Well, we don't have that many black people, but every day on the train I see,
and where I live, I'm surrounded by lots of Turkish people, Polish, Russians,
a few blacks (I think the family a few houses down is of French origin),
Spanish, Italians, lots of south/eastern Europeans whose language I can't
identify...

Most seem to be hard-working families, or working/school youth, and generally
seem more or less well-integrated. Of course on average they are less educated
than the natives, there is more crime among them, but the same is true for
natives from a poor/worker's origin compared to academics.

I've seen a few Roma (or whatever they are; looked like my stereotype of Roma)
whose "job" it is to ride downtown and beg for money all day. I suppose (and
hope) there are also more integrated ones among them.

Overall, sure there are also prejudices or racism, but the same is true in
America regarding Mexican immigrants. As to elitism - I'm not sure what you
mean by that. Yes, I'm a white, educated, good-looking guy; I'm lucky. Doesn't
mean I think less of people from other backgrounds - on the contrary I respect
them a lot if they don't just collect welfare.

~~~
cyphunk
There are prejudices and racism in Europe, indeed. Segregation is a much an
issue in the EU as in the US but in very different ways. I can speak for
Germany with some certainty where segregation can be found starkly in the
education system to general social circles, in a manner that seems to come
from a long ago era. Discrimination that is so clear and certain one might
mistakenly assume it was institutionalised. Perhaps of interest is the Soros
interviews from 2013 with teachers and students in Berlin and and General
stats for Germany as a whole [1]. More disturbing is the arguments made by
Gymnasium headmasters that argue immigrants would not benefit from being
permitted in this higher "class" of school because it is dominated by a
different culture (aka lets reaffirm our racist environments) and that they
were not as capable academically. It's as if they never learned of research
supporting the Pygmalion effect [2].

I know you are a modern open individual but just felt your method of using
your experiences in Europe as measurement for the US just shows your lack of
understanding of the actual situation in both places. This, is what I found to
be elitist.

1:
[http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/st...](http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/standing-
up-for-equality-germany-schools-english-20131024.pdf)

2:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect#Rosenthal.E2....](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect#Rosenthal.E2.80.93Jacobson_study)

------
cyphunk
Read, researched and took a break. The first impression of this being
something quiet interesting and perhaps revealing obscure questions... faded
into the impression that this is statistician hogwash.

    
    
        Q: All this data is from a dating site. What does that have to 
           do with my life?
        There are many situations that might not be explicitly romantic,
        but are nonetheless a lot like a first date. A job interview.
        Trying to rent an apartment. When you meet your freshman
        roommates. Anytime you’re trying to make an impression on a
        stranger. 
    

Be careful about turning this data from a dating site into another form of
craniology. What biases people utilise for sexual and/or life-partner
preferences cannot and should not be interchanged with biases exhibited in
interviews or the examples given. I'm sure there is overlap but one thing his
data shows is that the sway of sexual preference is volatile enough over short
spans of time that a huge margin of error should be assumed for any other
forms of generalisation. Your time would be better spent figuring out what
hollywood star of what race popularity peaked to create a sway in volatility,
than to take this data too seriously. Anyway, the guy has to sell books i
guess.

------
ohquu
There was a lot of reassurance that people "not wanting to date [race]" are
not racist. Can someone explain to me where the line for racism lies?

~~~
nkozyra
For one, I don't think preference has any bearing on this. By most accepted
definitions, racism is the belief that one or more race is inherently better
or worse in some regard.

So, unless you say "white women are inherently better at attracting me on
dating sites" I'm not sure how it could be shoehorned into racism.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_By most accepted definitions, racism is the belief that one or more race is
inherently better or worse in some regard._

What if that belief were true? Would it still be racist?

Concretely (since a reply brings up biology): I believe African women are
"better" (taller, have larger asses, and less body hair) than White/Asian
women. I believe these differences are primarily biological, likely genetic,
in origin.

I do discriminate on the basis of traits correlated with race - I am more
attracted to tall, dark women with larger asses. I've dated more women from
Africa in the past 6 months than from any other continent.

Am I racist?

(Note: I'm not African, nor will I be offended if you call me racist, so don't
hold back. I'm simply attempting to understand the viewpoint expressed.)

~~~
Mangalor
I think its racist. If you hold the belief for the group it means it can
subconciously affect your beliefs about the individual in the group. i.e.,
prejudice.

~~~
yummyfajitas
To clarify, you believe I'm subconsciously believing certain individual black
women are taller than they are in reality?

If I could persuade you that I were accurately measuring every woman's height
(perhaps by making observations like "she's up to my shoulder" or "she's up to
my jaw"), would you be convinced I am not racist?

------
kristopolous
I really wish their analysis went beyond just heterosexual pairings.

Firstly because those who haven't dated outside their own gender like me can't
really comprehend the significance of this and secondly because same-gender
dating dynamics are profoundly different than their different-gender
counterparts.

------
wslh
It reminds me of this paper (look at the chart in page 2): "Cultural Biases in
Economic Exchange?"
[http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cul...](http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cultural_biases.pdf)

------
jiggy2011
Does this control for factors like age? For example perhaps people of some
races/cultures are more likely to marry early (perhaps because of religion
etc) so the people who end up using dating sites from that race are more
likely to be divorcees (so older) or the sort who were passed over in real
life.

------
ll123
Black men are the least racist people.

~~~
barsonme
How does not having an attraction to somebody make them racist?

~~~
steve_taylor
If you are not attracted to someone because of their race, then you are
racist.

~~~
enraged_camel
Sexual attraction is not a logical choice. People become attracted to someone
first (or not) and rationalize it after the fact. No one goes, "she's black,
therefore I'm choosing to not have a boner."

~~~
steve_taylor
I agree that sexual attraction is not a logical choice. If you tend not to be
attracted to black women, that doesn't mean you're necessarily racist. It
could just mean that, statistically, you have had a tendency to not be
attracted to black women, and that can be for a variety of reasons, such as
lack of black women in your vicinity. However, a lot of people, while not
considering themselves racist in general, do in fact automatically rule out
being attracted to people of specific races. In other cases, they have a
fetish for a particular race. In both cases, that is in fact racist, because a
conscious choice has been made on the basis of race. People's conscious
choices can, to a degree, influence their tastes.

~~~
barsonme
It's still not racism. Prejudice? Yes. But unless you're believing they're
inferior because of their race then you're not being racist. I guess in the
layman's version of racism you're being racist (regarding examples 2 and 3),
but per the actual definition you're not.

------
notastartup
10~25% boost for Asian males.

You can thank Kpop for that boost. It's quite amazing what popular media
catering to the female demographic can create a totally different image of the
Asian male, unlike the American perspective which tends to degrade and
emasculate Asian males through stereotypes. Even positive stereotypes are
ridiculed (Good at math, plays classical piano).

In my experience, I had more positive experience with young non-Asian women
(around 18~22) and don't think I ended up dating anyone around my age or older
(unfortunately :D).

It's funny that most of my Asian friends also lie about being Korean when they
are not. Even more insane is that they are able to get Asian women by getting
past the filter which seems to favor Korean men.

Thank you Korean popular culture machine! Thank you Kpop!

~~~
baby
As an Asian living in France I've always blamed it on the media. You will
never see an asian man in a movie, and if you see one it's a ridiculous
stereotype just here to make fun of asian people.

You're 100% correct when you're talking about kpop boosting our numbers.
Japanese culture is a big deal as well.

~~~
notastartup
How do you find the dating scene in France as an Asian male?

~~~
baby
Harder than in China for sure. But I'm not really complaining since I'm a mix.
I'm sure full asian have it harder.

------
Byzantine
So basically, this data confirms what everybody sees in reality: that white
people are considered the most beautiful by every other race; even to the
point that adding "whiteness" to your racial profile will increase interest in
your overall profile. That's why in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East,
and Asia; the most successful, attractive people shown in the media have White
features or are very light skinned.

Now, here's a better question about this data: would this study be considered
"racist" if Black or Asian people were considered the most attractive?

I'm guessing no. "Anti-racism" is just another way to say "anti-white".

~~~
pessimizer
You got a zero from black women.

edit: I'm sorry - you got a zero in 2009. Now it's a -12%, twice the second
lowest percentage.

~~~
trustfundbaby
Yup ... this one is particularly interesting/weird.

Black women carry this behavior over to black men they perceive as "white" ...
(interests, speech that sort of thing). As a black man it really is kind of
perplexing.

------
blueflow
Is making a choice based of race inherently racism? And is racism inherently
bad?

As someone who is new to this world i felt like things like race and racism
don't matter if you are a nice person and caring about what others feel.

~~~
tomp
De gustibus non est disputandum.

It's Latin for "taste is not to be discussed" \- meaning that just because we
like different things does not mean that our choices are bad. In fact,
attraction/taste is most often not even a choice!

So, for example, just because I'm attracted to women (and not attracted to
men), it doesn't mean I'm sexist. Likewise, just because someone isn't
attracted to black/asian/redhead men/women, doesn't mean they are
discriminating.

On the other hand, if you're making _choices_ that are based on race (i.e. not
trusting someone who is black - apparently police in the US is quite prone to
that), it's either discrimination or racism. Sometimes, discrimination helps
us survive (that big dangerous-looking man coming your way? better run), but
very often, it's based on irrelevant things (black man driving an expensive
car? must be a drug dealer!!), or even institutionalized (women can't own
property). I'd say that's inherently bad.

Edit: I personally consider _any_ institutionalized discrimination bad and
immoral. Grants for black students are bad, IMO. On the other hand, grants for
poor students (the majority of which will be black (in the US), but not all of
them) are good.

~~~
roguecoder
"Indeed, in America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a
black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment
the assailant drops the knife. We believe white dominance to be a fact of the
inert past, a delinquent debt that can be made to disappear if only we don’t
look." Ta-Nehisi Coates, The Case For Reparations
[http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-
case...](http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-
reparations/361631/)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
You can use violent language to sensationalize it, sure. But its always seen
as a stretch to me, to use ancient history to explain the current generation.
Native Americans are jobless and alcoholic? Must have been those Indian wars
200 years ago. African-American folks uneducated and over-incarcerated? Blame
slavery.

Everybody is born into their own life, and make of it what they can. Some
change their position dramatically, some sit where they started. How do we
explain that? "My parents were poor and uneducated because..." is just an
excuse for one's own failures.

I understand that culture can strongly influence outcomes. But do we really
believe that ancient wrongs have so warped a demographic's culture to the
point they are doomed? And need 'reparations' to make it all right again?

I favor the process in the parent post - help those in need, sure, who
demonstrate a willingness to use that help (send the poor to college etc).
Blindly. That's important because people game any system, and others use
quotas and officially-sanctioned profiling as further proof of whatever
bigotry they already harbor.

~~~
codygman
> But its always seen as a stretch to me, to use ancient history to explain
> the current generation.

Calling it ancient history is disingenuous. History does repeat itself, and as
any historian will tell you "If you don't know history, you are a doomed to
repeat it".

> African-American folks uneducated and over-incarcerated? Blame slavery.

You are reducing it into something much less believable than:

"Blame the current people in power (white) for African-American folks having a
harder time because there are still racist effects, cultural ideologies,
subconscious denigration, uncaught biases, and traditions passed down from
their great-grandparents who were slave owners."

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Ok blame whomever you like. The issue of 'reparations' remains cloudy, and I
for one don't see the argument.

~~~
codygman
> Ok blame whomever you like.

I love how you frame things as if I'm just pointing fingers and may just as
well blame inanimate objects.

> The issue of 'reparations' remains cloudy, and I for one don't see the
> argument.

I'm unclear on my position here, but I do see the argument for reparations.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Sorry, I meant blame-throwing is an interesting exercise, for a sense of
history if nothing else. But 'reparations' means payment for having wronged
someone, usually a group. Using historical precedents of harm seems very
indirect to me, to justify handing a check to someone born a century after
that harm. Clearer?

------
azakai
> While OkCupid is large enough that its demographics reflect the general
> Internet-using public

Statistically, speaking, that is false. Unless the OKC user base is over half
the size of the Internet-using public, which I doubt. Any number less than
that does not guarantee it is representative (but it might be weak support for
it being so).

