
Ask HN: Are MacBook Pros still a good purchase for developers? - _bxg1
Preface: I don&#x27;t need to hear the standard arguments from people who&#x27;ve never liked Macs, nor am I talking about the types of development that were never well-suited to them (AAA game dev, embedded, etc.)<p>------------------------------------------------<p>MacBook Pro&#x27;s for a while now have been the go-to for certain segments of developers. They &quot;just work&quot;  so you can focus on development instead of system config, yet still give you a Unix-like environment with first-class Bash support. They have good battery life and keep working for years. They have a strong software ecosystem.<p>But given the recent strides in Windows laptops (and Windows itself), some of which even have official Ubuntu support now, combined with the problems the current line of MBP&#x27;s has experienced (and continues to experience), is it time to re-evaluate? Many of us (including myself) are still holding on to our 2015 MBP&#x27;s, but what comes after that? Have people had good experiences switching to something else (the XPS 13 comes to mind)? Any recommendations or anecdotes? Are some just holding out for the next major MacBook Pro revamp (likely in 2020)? Or are the current Pros not as bad as the press makes them seem? Does anyone do serious development on one of the new Airs?
======
ChikkaChiChi
There is nothing specific to the "Pro" line of Apple products that couldn't be
applied to the rest of the line. However, I'll keep my comment specific to
MacOS on notebooks.

Every Windows flagship laptop I've tried to adopt since I made the switch has
left me wanting to go back to Apple. I've become addicted to the trackpad.
Everything else feels sluggish and gross. Even on devices with glass
trackpads, I can't get the responsiveness that I feel like I get with Apple.
Combine that with the battery life, and it's really tough for me to give in to
what has now become comfortable.

Couple that with iTerm 2 and homebrew, and Apple has be deep in their
clutches. Though honestly, I think I app switch far faster in Windows.

I hate that I can't find satisfaction elsewhere. I'm excited to see the next
iteration of WSL and the new terminal interface. Maybe then, Windows will
finally be able to give my brain some much needed competition.

------
ktaube
Bought the ThinkPad x1 carbon as a replacement for my 2015 MBP a few days back
and the experience has been really disappointing.

It took me a couple of hours just to install all the latest
updates/drivers/bios updates. The Lenovo provided "updater" software is just
horrible. The windows UX actually feels nice for me, just need to get used to
it. Setting up development environment has been a struggle though. Linux
subsystem feels super slow and the lack of good terminal makes it even worse.
Upcoming WSL 2 update and the new terminal should improve this though but I
wouldn't hold my breath.

In conclusion - I'm not recommending switching to windows. There's basically
nothing that feels better than on Macs, except that the laptop itself was a
lot cheaper.

EDIT: + I'm really impressed that I can still sell the old macbook for like
600€. The ThinkPad will probably depreciate in value a lot more.

~~~
gtsteve
If you'd like a pretty reasonable terminal right now you can look at ConEmu or
cmder (which is a further customised version of ConEmu). You get tabs and
reasonable key shortcuts etc.

I'm also looking forward to the new terminal though, I hope it'll be a lot
nicer.

~~~
bogle
Installing cmder, which runs over ConEmu, gives you a really nice terminal
with lots of configurability.

------
president
If you are a Mac power-user and have gotten used to all the conventions (e.g.
window behavior, shortcuts, UI interactions), you won't be able to last 5
minutes on Windows. Every once in a while I have to logon to a Windows
computer for work and just fiddling with the Start Menu frustrates me. To me,
the Windows UX experience is horrible enough to keep me on Mac despite all the
growing issues with Macbook hardware.

~~~
dagw
I've been switching back and forth between Windows and OS X since 10.2 and
honestly, I really like the Windows 10 UX as a pretty keyboard friendly UX out
of the box, hell I even prefer it to the Mac these days. Launching my pinned
apps are bound to win+[1-9], All my setting and systems menus are under win+X,
win+arrow keys for tiling windows, win+ctrl+left/right arrow switches virtual
desktops, and for everything else I just hit the win key and start typing
whatever I'm searching for.

My only real complaint is that the file explorer hasn't really been updated in
ages and isn't exactly great.

~~~
karmakaze
I've been using a Surface Go after failing to get use from an iPad Pro. I find
I use the Surface more than any of my other machines. Nearly perfect. Makes me
plan on getting the next gen Surface Pro instead of a MacBook where the only
hard requirement was for Xcode which can be relegated to any other old
machine.

------
andrei_says_
The 2015 MacBook Pro is fantastic.

Excellent keyboard, hdmi port, sane size trackpad, beautiful display you can
open and close as many times as you want. No touchbar, so all keys are finger-
find-able. Excellent durability. More than fast enough. Oh, and MagSafe.

No dongles, no humiliation.

~~~
sethammons
Agreed. Pinnacle of the laptops. I am riding mine 'til it is dead, then I'm
worried what I'll do.

~~~
andrei_says_
You will send it to Louis Rossman, and he’ll fix it :)

------
el_dev_hell
I use a 2015 MBP as my daily machine.

I actually _upgraded_ to a 2017 MBP 13" without trackpad for 13 days. It was
_OK_ but not enough of an upgrade to justify an upgrade. Dongletown wasn't fun
either. I returned it for a refund.

I want to upgrade at the moment (8GB of RAM isn't ideal for my uses), but I
can't justify the upgrade just yet. I'll really miss MagSafe and a HDMI cord
slot.

------
hn_throwaway_99
I moved from a MacBook Pro to a high-end PixelBook (Google's Chromebook), and
I love it. ChromeOS now has Crostini, which is a Debian container running
inside (and well-integrated with) ChromeOS. I run lots of IntelliJ tools
(Webstorm, PyCharm, Datagrip), Node.js servers, python servers, Postgres,
MySQL, docker, etc. from the Linux instance and it works great. Lots of info
and conversation is available on the Crostini subreddit.

~~~
_bxg1
Do you know how straightforward it is to totally strip all Google software
from the thing and run Linux directly? The PixelBook looks like a nice piece
of hardware, but I don't trust Google.

~~~
ChikkaChiChi
Last I checked it was still a pain to get everything working.

Speaking of, the original Pixel laptop was the best laptop I've ever used that
wasn't a Mac. I wish they would update it and give a clean path to Debian.

------
harald_rudell
There is no alternative for MacBook Pro

It's not ideology for me but hardware performance It ties you to macOS, though

Other brands do not put the hardware ports on or use fossil hdmi usba or all
sorts of garbage. They also do not have the hardware life of a mac. Who but
Apple put 4 TB in a laptop? Apple use the silicon two years before anybody
else

Who but Apple gives you 160 Gb/s of Thunderbolt? It's just amazingly great.
And check their ssd speeds, they are so fast you don't believe the numbers at
first

The butterfly is for me, as measured, the fastest keyboard I have ever used

Apple still has some shit going on like magSafe firewire lightning but mbpro
does not suffer from that. Just no Linux since 2016

And Apple has the genius bar. In nine years they have never failed. In all
cases but two on the sport (ie. hours), once in a day, once in 5 days. You do
not have to troubleshoot hardware poopy, Apple does that for you. For free.

So max RAM 1 TB disk is like $3,200 these days Get one if you can afford it,
everything else is misery

------
return1
I dont think there is an MBP equivalent in hardware. That said , i wonder why
do developers work in laptops, which are extremely anti-ergonomic and
generally terrible for working long hours. My solution is a good thinkpad + a
docking station with a big screen, mechanical kbd & vertical mouse.

~~~
_bxg1
For me personally:

\- A trackpad is much faster and more ergonomic than a separate mouse

\- Being able to just pick up your workstation and take it to a meeting, a
colleague's desk, or home is extremely convenient

\- As you say, you can always hook them up to a dock if you need a different
arrangement for long hours

~~~
sethammons
Agreed. I usually am at my desk and use an external monitor and
keyboard/mouse. But when I am away from my desk, the laptop matters.

~~~
_bxg1
I prefer using the built-in keyboard and trackpad even at my desk (2015 MBP).
I plug in an external monitor, but I mostly use the laptop as a laptop.

------
bogle
I've just switched from a MacBook Pro 2011 15" to a Thinkpad X1 Extreme 15".
I've been putting off making a decision for quite a while, hoping Apple would
sort out the horrifying keyboard issues.

The difference in price between macs and windows back in 2011 wasn't as great
as it is now and that really made my toes curl when I spec'd out the next
machine. I've 32GB of memory in the X1 and I can boost that later to 64GB
which, as a software developer, lets me run a lot of VMs and Docker
containers. The trackpad may be no match but the keyboard is much better. The
X1 is really quite sleek so I don't feel I'm losing too much of the great
Apple design aesthetic.

I'd still prefer a mac but right now I can't wait around for them to sort out
their issues.

~~~
asdkhadsj
I've been thinking the same. Furthermore speccing out a desktop box with big
specs is just so expensive with Apple.

That said, my "travel laptop" is my old 2015 MacBook Pro and I absolutely love
it. If it breaks though... I just can't imagine I can justify OSX anymore.

My main concern is the operating system, honestly. I really enjoy OSX, and I
hate dealing with random things breaking. OSX is really stable for me,
especially if I don't upgrade to new versions right away _(lol)_. I don't know
what I can do about the OS..

I really really wish someone would make a pay-only, detailed linux OS. Nail
the hardware, drivers, etc. Make the OS pretty, but don't try and reinvent
every app under the sun - be sustainable. I'd happily pay $100-200 (yearly for
new versions too) for an OS experience on Linux that tried hard to fight those
time consuming issues and gave me an OSX experience. Argh.

~~~
_bxg1
On the Dell XPS 13 you can get Ubuntu preinstalled, officially-supported
drivers and everything. From what I hear it's a pretty good setup. My main
hangup is that it's only on the 13, not the 15-inch.

------
yulaow
Mine is a bit of a controversial opinion but, personally, after having tried
it for a week, I find the keyboard extremely bad for a power user which works
on it for long hours. Just because of that I would not consider the recent
design of macbooks pro good for a developer

------
rajacombinator
Work got me a new mbp recently and it is glitchy, overpriced, bad to type or
trackpad on, and has the insulting Touch Bar. Supposedly the processor is
faster but even with 2 extra cores it’s unnoticeable. The only improved area
vs my personal 2013 mbp is the weight is about 10% less, which is noticeable.
There’s a reason I haven’t upgraded my personal machine.

------
lukaszkups
switched some time ago from OSX (15" MPB 2013) to Linux (13" Zenbook UX32LN),
and recently to Windows + WSL (15" Surface Book 2 - damn, this piece of
hardware is great)- I think I'm gonna never miss any other system - WSL is
what I've been missing all these years on Windows.

------
Sevii
I got a new MacBook Pro after my last job change and it’s been a major pain
point. I used the pre-2016 MacBook pros for the last few years with no
problems, but the usb-c ones have trouble with external monitors, logging in,
etc.

------
llampx
I moved from a 2015 MBP to a ThinkPad T470s. I am very happy with the hardware
and even get along with Windows, now that WSL is a thing. I was using Homebrew
for package management and its so much nicer to have apt.

~~~
_bxg1
1) How's the trackpad? I think that's one of the hardest things to match in a
non-Apple laptop. I hear they've gotten much better, but they used to be
really really bad so I'm not sure how they compare now.

2) It's unclear to me exactly how WSL would affect workflow. Are you able to
basically pretend that Windows has native bash, or are there caveats like
there are in Cygwin?

~~~
llampx
I've used a post-2016 MBP Trackpad only in passing and found it infuriating
how many phantom touches it registered. With the ThinkPad I mainly use the
Trackpoint and sometimes the Trackpad for gestures. No complaints however it
was nicer to click anywhere on the MBP Trackpad whereas you have to aim your
clicks more on the ThinkPad.

WSL is not Cygwin, it is so much better its not funny.

------
kevinherron
I’ve had a good experience with the 2016 and now the 2018. Didn’t have any
keyboard issues, fortunately.

------
phaus
I work with Macbooks but I've always had Windows PCs at home.

Try the keyboard on the new MBP. If you agree with me that its literally the
worst keyboard in the history of PCs, and you don't want to deal with the
hassle of using a bluetooth keyboard to replace it, then you might want to
switch to a Windows laptop. If you like the keyboard (and while I struggle to
understand it many people actually love it), then its still one of the better
options on the market for high end hardware.

I use Win/Linux/Mac OS on a daily basis for work. Each OS has its benefits.

I'm not sure why, but the way a mouse works in Windows is so much better than
MacOS that it renders mice almost unusable on Macs. Best case scenario you
manage to get mouse acceleration kind of disabled, so its just unpleasant
instead of unusable. I think the way mice handle very badly on Macs may be why
mac users are so in love with the Mac's touchpad. I've tried the magic mouse
and a bunch of Logitech/Microsoft mice and no matter what I do it isn't smooth
or accurate. For a long time, I felt Windows' command line / powershell were a
huge drawback. However, the Linux subsystem, while not a perfect solution, has
done a lot to even the playing field.

Mac OS is great for a few reasons. Once again I'm not sure why but Apple's
touchpad is so much better than Windows' that 99.99% of Windows touchpads seem
borderline unusable. I would still prefer using a mouse if it weren't for the
issues described above, but Mac's touchpad is still very pleasant to use and
the gestures are great.

The second thing I love about Macs is how easy it is to run every platform on
a Mac. VMWare fusion is affordable and amazing. Windows, Linux, and Mac VMs
run as flawlessly as can be expected. In comparison, on Windows' version of
VMWare you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to even get a Mac OS VM
working, let alone running smoothly. Linux VMs are hit or miss. Sometimes they
work great out of the box, sometimes they require a lot of tweaking. For a
more anecdotal comment, for a dev environment, I really enjoy the workflow of
Mac more than Windows or Linux.

Linux's biggest selling point is the amount of freedom and power you have
within the OS, combined with a proper unix command line system. Its a great
dev environment. However, I think it still isn't ready for the desktop for
most people. Even the easiest Linux distro still takes more work than it
should. Every once in a while I have to spend half a day troubleshooting
something that broke when I either installed or updated it.

If I had to pick one for home use, I would pick Windows all day long because
proper mouse support is important to me and I am somewhat of a gamer. I just
wish Windows actually was a Unix clone instead of having to settle for the
Unix subsystem.

If I had to pick one for work, MacOS would hands-down be my top pick if it
weren't for the fact that they refuse to admit that they designed a defective
keyboard and remove it from future models. I currently have a 2017 model. I
was using a 2013 model until it died. I tried to trade the new one for a 2015
with the good keyboard, but I'm stuck with it for now. Another thing to
consider is that I had my 2017 MBP for 2 months before the logic board had to
be replaced due to a faulty sensor. If they don't improve things considerably,
my next work machine will probably be Windows.

~~~
_bxg1
> If you agree with me that its literally the worst keyboard in the history of
> PCs

I'm not picky about keyboards; as long as it isn't mushy I'm happy. Of course,
if it literally breaks that's a separate problem.

> the way a mouse works in Windows is so much better than MacOS that it
> renders mice almost unusable on Macs.

Definitely agree here, though I prefer touchpads either way so it's moot for
me.

> Even the easiest Linux distro still takes more work than it should. Every
> once in a while I have to spend half a day troubleshooting something that
> broke when I either installed or updated it.

Yeah, this the main reason I'm hesitant to use it for real work. I don't want
to pull mental resources away from what I'm actually working on just to keep
things running. I do wonder how the preinstalled, officially-supported Linux
laptops compare though.

> I had my 2017 MBP for 2 months before the logic board had to be replaced due
> to a faulty sensor

Did they fix this for free, like the keyboards? If they fix all the
problematic hardware at no cost to me then I think I can live with it. What I
can't justify is spending $2,4000 on a laptop which soon after requires
expensive repairs.

~~~
phaus
>Did they fix this for free, like the keyboards?

They did fix it and return in in just a few days. They offered to give me a
loaner, but my company had already taken care of that. Customer service was
very good. It sucks that they are so busy you have to make an appointment, but
other than that the personnel were friendly, professional, and good at their
jobs.

