
Lies We Tell Kids - mqt
http://www.paulgraham.com/lies.html
======
astine
Does it count as a 'lie' if it is believed by the parent?

The reason that parents don't want kids to swear is because they genuinely
believe that it is wrong for some reason. The don't know the reason
themselves, and so break the rule and become hypocrites, but they still
believe that it is wrong and want their children to do better than they did.

With regard to group identity (and religion,) most parents actually adhere to
that identity themselves. They share the beliefs and assumptions of that group
and so would be hypocrites not to instruct their children in them.

~~~
greendestiny
I don't know that I've ever read a really good account of the hows and whys of
swearing. It seems to me the idea that we're mistaken that swear words are
taboo completely misses the fact that we defined these words as taboo to start
with. I think restricting children from swearing is in part to give more power
to swear words, because as adults we find it useful to have these powerful
words. Teaching children that swear words aren't taboo seems to be teaching
them a definition at odds with rest of society and would deprive them of a
useful set of words if it succeeded, which I doubt it would. In fact teaching
kids that swear words are just words is exactly the kind of lie this essay is
talking about.

~~~
mechanical_fish
This is basically right. The words are taboo because it's _useful_ to have
taboo words, so the culture deliberately makes them so.

Taboo words are useful _because_ they transcend politeness. If a normally
civil person comes into your dinner party and tells you that the _fucking
ceiling is about to fall down_ , you _get moving_. You don't waste time
looking around for the ironic smile. You don't reproach the person for
speaking out of turn.

But it goes beyond simple cultural coding. The neurologists say that there's a
physiological basis for swearing: the brain is wired to do so under certain
conditions. Under extreme or sudden distress, swearing helps us cope, and the
reverse is probably also true: swearing helps to work you into a rage or a
panic. That's one very good reason why we tell kids not to swear and correct
them when they do: It's a way of calming them down, and of teaching them to be
calm, and of encouraging them to reserve their moments of adrenaline-surging
fury for appropriate times.

~~~
comatose_kid
Interesting. So I wonder if exceptions are the programming language analogue
of swearing?

~~~
pg
They are certainly highly correlated.

~~~
dhotson
Obligatory xkcd comic: <http://xkcd.com/290/>

------
Prrometheus
>Don't all 18 year olds think they know how to run the world? Actually this
seems to be a recent innovation, no more than about 100 years old. In
preindustrial times teenage kids were junior members of the adult world and
comparatively well aware of their shortcomings.

This idea is fleshed out in the writing of John Taylor Gatto, a former Teacher
of the Year who disagrees with near everything about modern education.

<http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm>

~~~
ecuzzillo
amazing link

------
dgabriel
My least favorite pg essay. It's too easy to generalize about parenting, and
so little of this essay applies to me.

1\. Raising a kid in the city, and quite happily. 2\. No prohibitions on
swears in my house. Just at Grandma's, and only because it would offend her,
not because swearing is inherently bad. 3\. He goes to a school where they
only teach you how to read, write, and do basic math. Everything else is a
child-led research project. 4\. We don't lie about turkeys. Turkeys are not
very smart, and have no concept of "wanting to die." If he asked this
question, I'd explore vegetarian options with him. 5\. Pastafarians. He can
make his own spiritual allegiences when he feels the desire to do so. 6\.
Drugs and sex haven't come up much, beyond the basic "where do babies come
from" conversation. We've done that, he's satisfied for now.

On and on. I'm not the only parent like me, either. Be careful about
generalizations.

~~~
pg
Lying to your kids is like the kind of intellectual fashion I wrote about in
"What You Can't Say." No parent thinks they lie to their kids-- _except of
course in necessary or harmless ways_ \-- just as no one thinks what they
believe is an intellectual fashion. But in retrospect it turns out most
parents do, just as in retrospect it turns out most people's beliefs are
influenced by intellectual fashions.

So if one has a strong conviction that lying to their kids is not an issue,
that's not necessarily the kind of evidence one can trust. Plenty of parents
you'd consider to be lying outrageously to their kids also think that.

~~~
dgabriel
The examples you presented to illustrate your argument ring false in my
experience, and the premise seems flawed as a result. They may seem correct to
you, depending on how your circle of friends behave.

It might be more correct to say everybody lies outrageously to everybody else,
and sometimes one person is a parent and one person is a child.

~~~
pchristensen
I agreed that the essay could use more examples. I understand that the
examples might seem silly in 100 years (or even 10), but it would have
benefited from things like "In 2008, many parents told their kids X"

~~~
r7000
Is that not implied? We can assume an author is writing about the present and
recent past unless told otherwise told.

~~~
pchristensen
In the notes, he mentions concern for how the readers 100 years from now will
view his essays.

~~~
r7000
Yes I saw that. But how does it follow that he has to point out "in the year
2008"? When not given a particular time period, I always assume an author's
example is meant to refer to the present. (Maybe I am not understanding your
point).

~~~
pchristensen
I agree about the author's time being the default context. I just suggested
the specifics because pg was so concerned about timelessness.

------
ajju
"Very smart adults often seem unusually innocent, and I don't think this is a
coincidence. I think they've deliberately avoided learning about certain
things. Certainly I do. I used to think I wanted to know everything. Now I
know I don't."

This is the most important paragraph of this essay. It's really important for
anyone who is curious in general to understand this and I have never heard it
expressed before.

"The bizarre half is what makes the religion stick, and the useful half is the
payload."

This is actually a very effective marketing trick if you replace "bizarre"
with unusual. Look at reddit - the alien makes it sticky, Google - unusual
simplicity makes it sticky, Apple - unusually good looking devices.

I do think that with religion as with products, short term stickiness comes
from the surface unusualness and long term stickiness comes from the payload -
the actual utility (honesty and industriousness for religion, unsually
intuitive interfaces for apple products, really good search algorithms for
Google, and until recently at least, entertaining stories on reddit)

For people who don't find the long term utility in religion, the stickiness
that comes from common unusualness is often not enough to maintain their
'belief'. This is truer for products than for religions though - which I'm
sure is an evolutionary effect. It's a much harder decision to quit your group
or clan than it is to abandon things. Clearly, Apple has managed to cross this
product-religion boundary, making it stickier.

------
goodgoblin
Regarding the horrible nature of some things in the world - pollution, the
pain and suffering our lunch goes through, etc. - I think one of the reasons
people don't always tell the truth is their own comfort with the way things
are might be upended. I have a 5 year old who naturally is opposed to eating
meat and who is shocked by the thought of killing something to eat it. I
personally don't think I would eat something if I had to kill it first, yet I
enjoy a bacon cheeseburger very much. I find my own rationalizations becoming
thinner and thinner the more I live with him and notice his innate repulsion
to meat. I can see the influence packaging has on his thinking - chicken
nuggets are acceptable to him - as far removed from an actual walking,
clucking feathered chicken as you can get and still be chicken - and by
reference can see the influence packaging has had on my own ability to quickly
dismiss thoughts of desperate cows clambering to avoid the stun bolt as I bite
into my bacon cheeseburger. I can do it quite easily, but would never kill a
cow.

I think another reason we don't tell kids the truth about some of the horrible
things in the world is that we ourselves shy away from them. Its as if we are
all stepping over the dead horse on our way into our house, and the children
point and notice the smell, but we hurry them along, anxious to be past the
nastiness. Its part of our sanitized world, but I wonder if staring at the
dead horse all day long isn't a kind of trap in itself. Where does it end? Can
you spend your life pitying the lives of others? Thoreau makes an interesting
observation:

“There was a dead horse in the hollow by the path to my house, which compelled
me sometimes to go out of my way, especially in the night when the air was
heavy, but the assurance it gave me of the strong appetite and inviolable
health of Nature was my compensation for this. I love to see that Nature is so
rife with life that myriads can be afforded to be sacrificed and suffered to
prey on one another. . . . The impression made on a wise man is that of
universal innocence. Compassion is a very untenable ground. It must be
expeditious. Its pleadings will not bear to be stereotyped.”

~~~
mechanical_fish
_thoughts of desperate cows clambering to avoid the stun bolt_

I'm certainly not saying that this _never_ happens (How would I know? And from
what I hear you don't want to give the meatpacking industry too much slack;
they cut every corner they can. Read _Fast Food Nation_...) but Temple Grandin
claims to have built an entire career out of making sure that this sort of
thing doesn't happen. She says that panicking the cows is more than just
cruel: It lowers the quality of the meat and it threatens to slow your
slaughterhouse to a halt.

I read a book by Grandin, and she's an unusual writer; perhaps because she's
autistic, she's almost supernaturally incapable of mincing words. I'm not sure
I'd feel comfortable reading her work to a kid. :)

Incidentally, as a non-vegetarian married to a vegetarian, I understand your
point of view perfectly...

------
tt
Here's something potentially controversial:

I believe the most common mistake parents make with raising their kids is
attempting to treat them like adults all of the time.

This trend seems to be most common with educated parents. I would bet that
when/if PG has his own kids, he would fall flat for it. I'm a parent and
became aware of this concept prior to having the first child. Yet I still
catch myself from time to time.

The "Lies We Tell Kids" article reminds me of virtually all educated parents
attempting to explain things to their children at the moment when it's least
effective. I often see (in public places) parents trying their best to explain
to children why candies are bad for them, why curse words are bad, etc... all
the while the kids are whining and throwing further tantrums. Such attempts
are completely useless. What is most effective at those moments should be a
stern warning, followed by immediate action if the kid does not comply to your
command. Such actions are typically: immediate timeouts, loss of privileges,
etc... I'm not talking about or even suggesting spanking the kid.

Regarding the "stern warning" method above, this is my favorite:
<http://www.amazon.com/dp/1889140163> I consider that one of the best things I
have read since having kids.

~~~
pg
I know the type of parent you mean (I live in Cambridge, MA), and I definitely
would not be one of them.

Incidentally, though I agree treating kids too much like adults is a mistake,
I don't think it's the most common one. Only a small number of "progressive"
parents do that. From what I've seen, the worst mistakes parents make are (a)
setting a bad example and (b) inconsistency.

------
9oliYQjP
There's an interesting thing to note about sex amongst youth in rural,
suburban, and urban settings. I've been privy to statistics held by birth
control manufacturers (although the exact numbers evade my memory, the
relations I remember). These show that urban youths begin having sex at an
average age of 15. Suburban youths begin having sex at an average age of 14.
Rural youths begin having sex at an average age of 13.

So, moving out to the suburbs might seem like protecting your child from
having sex at an early age but the statistics would indicate otherwise.

------
sanj
Does PG have kids?

I'm not advocating ignoring the essay if he doesn't.

But just as I'm leery of taking startup advice from someone who hasn't done
one, I'd be tempted to discount this a bit.

The issue is that there are forces afoot in your brain when you have kids
which are deep, powerful and extraordinarily difficult to ignore. Pre-
mammalian lower-reptilian brain stuff.

Wanting to protect them is one of those.

~~~
sanj
As a followup, it'd be interesting to know if any of the reviewers have raised
kids.

~~~
pchristensen
I have a one month old and a 2.5yr old. Even before reading this, I've caught
myself telling lies (or hiding truths) with my older kid.

We were watching a show about baboons on Animal Planet and the dominant male
baboon killed and ate a baby impala (more graphically than I expected them to
show). I was going to change the channel, but I asked myself "Why is it bad if
my kid knows that some animals eat other animals?" I left it on and talked to
her about how some animals get food. I also told her that it's different with
people, because we've more or less agreed to let every person live.

Then I was going to change the channel again when there was a (again, more
graphic than I expected) fight, I left it on and told her that animals fight,
but it's not OK for people to fight. Something like "Animals fight, people
hug".

So I guess I picked my lies, but I was conscious of it. My guiding principle
is that I will

1) instruct my kids on correct and appropriate behavior

2) let them know that people have different expectations and not everyone
behaves as well as I expect them to.

PS My wife was pissed that I let her watch the baboons killing and fighting :)

~~~
yters
I think it is a sort of lie to tell someone the truth in a context they can't
handle appropriately. So, I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing.
It'd be wrong if you never stopped telling her such things.

------
asnyder
Besides being a woman, Marie Curie was the first and ONLY person to ever
recieve a Nobel Prize in different sciences. Something her male counterparts
have yet to do, so maybe there's something there besides her sex.

~~~
mhartl
Let _N_ be the number of great scientists. It would be sensible for the
curriculum to include the _n_ greatest scientists, where _n_ << _N_. Since
Marie Curie _always_ gets included in the textbooks, we can conclude either
that she ranks as one of the _n_ greatest scientists, even for _very_ small
_n_ , or that the reasons for her inclusion go beyond her scientific
accomplishments. Considering how few history textbooks mention (for example)
Euler, Gauss, Lagrange, Laplace, Lavoisier, Faraday, Dirac, Onsager, or Landau
---whose scientific accomplishments all rival or surpass Curie's---it's safe
to conclude (as Paul did) that the textbook writers include some non-
scientific factors when deciding which scientists to include.

Let's face it: almost no one reading this knows who the hell Onsager and
Landau are---but you probably should. (They were both giants of 20th-century
physics.) No one disputes that Marie Curie was a great scientist, but that's
not enough to account for her ubiquity in the textbooks. And since the most
significant diff between Curie and Landau is gender, it's accurate to say that
Curie gets included because she was female.

~~~
randomhack
You forgot to mention Turing :) Turing doesnt get much space in school
textbooks. And von Neumann too despite being one of the giants of mathematics
in 20th century.

~~~
mhartl
Wow, my list really should have included von Neumann, perhaps the most
underrated intellect of the 20th century. He'd be on a lot of people's top-
_n_ list even for _n_ <= 3, and yet he's barely known outside of the technical
world.

------
wallflower
"Probably the biggest lie told in schools, though, is that the way to succeed
is through following "the rules." In fact most such rules are just hacks to
manage large groups efficiently."

Reminds me of something Seth Godin (?) once said - that the whole purpose of
school is to institutionalize mediocrity

~~~
Alex3917
The main tool used by schools to manage large groups is competition. Whenever
you get two or more people to compete then they have to be, by definition,
doing the same thing. The rest of the rules are only there to cover the corner
cases that competition misses.

Similarly, no one who is the best at something can ever, by definition, push
the human race forward. Because to be the best at something means you have to
be, by definition, doing the same thing as everyone else. C.f. here:

<http://reddit.com/info/14l86/comments/c14o44>

~~~
danohuiginn
To move forward you have to, by definition, be going in the same direction.
The freakish geniuses _change_ the human race, but it's the loyal hard-workers
who move it forward.

[sorry to quibble over semantics, but it was too obvious an opportunity to
pass p]

~~~
Alex3917
"To move forward you have to, by definition, be going in the same direction."

The idea that progress has directionality is just a metaphor to aid
visualization. It has no basis in reality. Your argument is a logical fallacy;
I forget the name, but it involves using the same word in two different
senses.

~~~
danohuiginn
You can't have an idea of progress without some way of distinguising better
from worse, forward from back, more progressed from less progressed. it's been
part of the word all along (latin 'progredi', to step forward) - not that
etymology always matters, but in this case the metaphor is essential to the
concept.

If we have a clear idea of what "pushing the human race forward" is (more
knowledge? less famine? better morals?), then somebody can be the 'best' at it
- even if they are the best by being somehow innovative.

I'm not sure that this is a fruitful discussion to be having, though - except
that people often seem to talk about progress without reflecting on what they
mean. Besides, you started it with "push the human race forward" ;)

------
te_platt
As a parent I have found myself lying to my kids exactly as layed out in this
essay. Mostly along the lines of protections. I just have a couple of specific
dissagreements.

Sex,

Having a soon to be 14 year old daughter this section hit close to home. My
wife and I haven't told her lies about sex but we have certainly held back
some things. Pregnancy and STD are important topics to understand but even
more so are the emotional aspects. Sex can be a powerful binding and richly
rewarding part of a relationship but only so far as each partner treats it
with the appropriate respect. You may have casual sex but it comes at the cost
of less meaning for sex in a committed relationship. I don't want her having
sex now not because it may cloud her judgement but because I want her to be
able to have something much better in the future.

Swearing,

Minor point. I tell my kids not to swear (and don't _hardly_ swear myself) for
the same reason I don't let them track mud in the house. I just think it's
ugly. I hope that doesn't set me off as less educated.

Death,

There is too much to talk about in this kind of forum. I just wanted to note
that talking about religion is far less controversial than talking about
parenting.

------
robg
I'd love to see the sequel: Lies We Tell Ourselves.

Seems like many of the things discussed have their origin in lies we continue
to tell ourselves. Kids just get special versions. But if anything those
instances provide a window into what we don't discuss honestly - sex, death,
identity, formal education, and obeying authority.

~~~
hugh
I dunno, "lies we tell ourselves" doesn't sound like a very good essay.

Since we don't know about the lies we tell ourselves, it would have to be
"lies I see other people telling themselves".

And that pretty much translates to "Things that other people believe that I
disagree with", which is a fairly boring topic for an essay.

~~~
robg
When's the last time you had an honest discussion with anyone about:

a) Sex (e.g., Do you satisfy your partner?) b) Death (e.g., Was your life
meaningful?) c) Formal Education (e.g., If not, then what?) d) Identity (e.g.,
Who are you?) e) Authority (e.g., Who tells you what to do?)

I don't know, honesty seems much harder than settling on lies to tell
ourselves.

~~~
danohuiginn
I have these kinds of discussion fairly often. In fact, I probably wouldn't
consider somebody a friend until we'd had that kind of conversation. I find it
hard to judge if that's unusual - maybe it is in other social circles?

I take the point that avoiding self-deception is hard, maybe impossible. But
that's no different from talking about science, or history, or just about
anything else.

~~~
robg
That self-deception is exactly what I was getting at. I have no doubt that
many have these discussions but it's so much easier to lie during them. I'd
argue it's different in kind from science or history exactly because there's
no independent record that can be consulted. Indeed, I can't see many parents
lying to their kids about science or history because it would be so straight-
forward to identify the lie. No, the lies seem much more personal exactly
because we're already telling them to ourselves. Thus the sequel essay.

~~~
danohuiginn
ah, in that case I do agree - and we're talking about something that huge
swathes of philosophers, psychologists, social scientists and miscellaneous
intellectuals have spent their lives arguing about.

That isn't to deny that a pg contribution could be illuminating!

~~~
Radix
I recently found this forum and I am very happy I did. It is nice to see a
threads of discussion end in agreement. That doesn't seem possible in many
other places.

------
bcater
"A sprinter in a race almost immediately enters a state called 'oxygen debt.'
His body switches to an emergency source of energy that's faster than regular
aerobic respiration. But this process builds up waste products that ultimately
require extra oxygen to break down, so at the end of the race he has to stop
and pant for a while to recover."

As a point of information, it's unusual to think of anaerobic respiration as
an emergency source of energy; you tend to think of emergency situations as
necessarily involving adrenaline, which increases heart rate, dilates blood
vessels, etc. The biggest energy source of the 100m and 200m sprints is
phosphocreatine, a very useful fuel for anaerobic metabolism; unfortunately
for sprinters, it can be depleted in under ten seconds of top physical effort.
(Incidentally, A.V. Hill received the 1922 Nobel Prize in Physiology for
figuring out the proportions of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism that
contribute to energy production in the various distances of Olympic
footraces.)

This, of course, is all to say that sometimes lies aren't really malicious -
as he says - but that it's simply easier to say simple things than complex
things. Since it was tangential to the discussion anyway, it's no big deal.

And if you disagree (as many experts do, even amongst each other) about the
role of phosphocreatine, I'll be perfectly content with you calling me a liar
:)

~~~
llimllib
Also, that passage made me think that he was repeating the common (probable)
falsehood that lactic acid is what causes the soreness and tiredness of
muscles following anaerobic exercise. Recent research suggests that it is in
fact a source of energy for the body, and slows down acidosis:
[http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/287/3/R50...](http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/287/3/R502)

------
eyudkowsky
PG: "I think they've deliberately avoided learning about certain things.
Certainly I do. I used to think I wanted to know everything. Now I know I
don't."

Can you give us some examples of things you don't want to know and avoid
learning about? Also, you must already have some idea of what horrible truths
you might discover if you learned further, so can you give us a general idea
of what those are?

~~~
pg
I wasn't thinking about horrible stuff so much as banal stuff. For example,
celebrity gossip. I'm always annoyed in a grocery store when I find that
before realizing it I've read the cover of some tabloid. It's like
unconsciously picking up something and eating it, and then realizing too late
that it was a mouse turd.

------
iloveyouocean
To a person unfamiliar with economics, accounting, math, etc. the financial
markets seem magical, or at least mysterious. Prophets emerge to explain the
markets, and often do so in vague and opinionated ways, that to the uninformed
seem brilliant and enlightened.

Regarding this article, there are sociologists, psychologists, etc. that make
a scientific/formal practice of answering questions like, 'Why do we lie to
kids? What are the ramifications.'.

Where the majority of people reading pg's articles are technically proficient,
our realm of knowledge generally doesn't extend into the pursuits of a
sociologist/psychologist. And so those realms seem magical or mysterious to
us.

Does it occur to anyone that the issues brought up in this article have
probably been thoroughly studied, and well-reasoned, possibly even evidence
based conclusions have been drawn, and in fact are publicly available.

In this age of information, perhaps the lie of the 'original thinking prophet'
will go out of fashion.

------
rsheridan6
I can think of another reason for lying to kids: because everybody else does,
and if your kid doesn't play along there are consequences. I am reminded of
Roman Polanski, who was Jewish but was raised Catholic at an early age to
protect him from the Nazis. He ended up becoming an actual Catholic, because
you can't tell a four year old that he's really a Jew, but has to pretend to
be a Catholic, because they're incapable of being that deceptive. I can't
remember why he finally left the Church in his teens, but it was for something
like a conflict with a priest, the kind of thing that lots of gentiles have
the Church over.

If your kid curses, talks about how there are no worthy black scientists,
tells other kid about how the penis squirts semen into the vagina and that's
where babies come from, and denies the existence of God (I live in a red
state, this one may not be a big deal where some of you live, but in some
places this will still mark you as a pariah), then there are certain
consequences, especially if the child does it in front of adults, because
other parents aren't like that. Nothing as severe as a trip to Auschwitz, but
I at least want my kid to understand tribal taboos before breaking them.

~~~
programm_r
Given that we don't have to worry about Auschwitz, We also don't have to lie
to our kids to teach them about taboos.

If you don't think there's anything wrong with swearing, you don't have to say
"You can't swear because it's wrong." You can say, truthfully, that there are
certain words grownups are allowed to use that children aren't. You can say
"You are not allowed to say that because if you accidentally say it at a
friend's house, his parents won't want you coming over to play anymore."
That's very likely true. You may be leaving some things out -- reasons that
you don't fully understand and therefore don't know how to explain to a small
child -- but you don't have to actually tell any lies.

You don't have to believe in religion to teach your children that you respect
other peoples' beliefs, and don't try to correct their religious beliefs when
you don't agree with them. Of course, if you actually think they're stupid for
having those beliefs, then you will have to lie by omission to help their
social life. I haven't told my children any more than they asked about my
beliefs, so it took until my daughters were about 10 until they realized I
don't believe in God at all, but I didn't lie or pretend to believe something
I don't, either. They understood from an early age that different people
believe different things for a lot of reasons and it's only polite to respect
that.

If your kid is curious enough to ask questions that can't be answered without
explaining the mechanics of sex, you can also teach him that we don't really
talk openly about sex in polite conversation, and that other kids might have
parents that don't want them to know about it yet. And remind them that it's
important to them socially that they don't get in trouble with their friends'
parents.

You can say that George Washington Carver's achievements were not so much
scientific as social (and you don't entirely understand why they're learning
about him science class), without saying that no black scientists are worthy.

This is the approach I've taken, and it's worked pretty well so far. We live
in a very "Christian" suburb, and so far my kids haven't been kicked out of
any homes for being inappropriate, nor have any of their parents come to me
with concerns about such things. (I have 16 year old daughters and a 6 year
old son.)

------
yters
I think one of the most important purposes of morality is to keep people smart
and interesting. I grew up in a pretty sheltered Christian environment, and
the difference between how I thought and they way the jaded teenagers at
public school thought was very distinct. The behaviors that are traditionally
considered sinful end up making the sinner a boring and small minded person in
the long run. This is essentially because sin destroys a person's imagination.

The object of sin is usually a very strong, visceral pleasure, and if there is
anything that can control the focus of a person's mind it is strong, visceral
pleasure. And, when I am thinking about pleasure, I'm not really thinking
about anything. It is just a feeling, and feelings don't have any kind of
logical content that can lead my mind to other thoughts. Finally, engaging in
visceral pleasure makes everything else seem boring by comparison, while also
requiring a greater amount of the pleasure's source to get a thrill. The
combined result is me having a one track mind, constantly thinking about
nothing.

~~~
xcombinator
Thanks for the enlightenment. I never thought about that. I believe something
that is deeply ingrained in our mind should have a reason.

Having felt in love when I wanted to work I can understand what you say. Love-
sex actives some area in our mind, and nothing is more important in that
moment.

------
edw519
Adults may be able to lie to children with their _words_ , but they can rarely
pull this off with their _actions_.

Each of us can remember the many times when, as children, we witnessed the
difference between "what I say" and "what I do".

We were told not to swear, drink, smoke, or lie by parents who swore, drank,
smoked and lied, not to gossip by adults who gossiped, not to cheat by
teachers who cut corners themselves, to do the right thing by leaders who
didn't, and to be great by celebrities who weren't so great.

Who knows, if adults actually did what they said, maybe they would have been
able to pull it off.

We children may have been a little slow, but we weren't that stupid. After
all...

"What you do speaks so loud I cannot hear what you say." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

------
ex2bot
Interesting essay. I can't say I've read anything quite like it. So I guess
that's a compliment!

A couple comments on minor points in your essay:

1) George Washington Carver is, or should be, known for his work for southern
farmers and for his research and promotion of legumes and sweet potatoes
including several interesting inventions. He is not one of the great
scientists like Einstein, Hawking, Newton, etc. He probably is more famous
because he was black, but that's not to say his contribution was
insignificant. It wasn't.

2) You tend to hear (or read) two opinions about grade school teachers
depending on the person: either they are tireless crusaders with hearts of
gold or they are mediocre "if you can't's" that live for June, July and
August.

I think the truth is more complex. Not all public school teachers were
mediocre students. That's the tendency, and it's likely because in many parts
of the country they don't get paid a comparable wage. The better students find
higher paying jobs. I am an elementary school teacher myself who graduated
with honors.

Elementary teachers have to be knowledgeable in EVERYTHING, including child
development, literacy, mathematics, social sciences, writing, art and design,
physical education, earth science, life science, physical science, etc. What
would that be like to attempt to teach students all those various facets of
human knowledge? Easy? Well, they're young. How complex could it be?

You'd be surprised how difficult. And you'd likely be intimidated. I'm
sometimes intimidated still after 13 years of teaching elementary. Further,
one of the most difficult parts of the job is teaching students who could care
less and would rather raise an uproar! You wouldn't believe how bad it is.

So, grade school teachers don't know everything? Not experts in their fields?
Surprising? At those mediocre salaries (in many parts of the country)?

Just something to think about.

------
mynameishere
Most lies are of a statistical nature. Moving to the suburbs is a good
example. You're seeing lots of true things that aren't statistically
representative. The extensive coverage of protected groups in history texts is
the same way.

Look at some different lies:

1\. "Grandma went to heaven." False.

2\. "God doesn't kill good people." False, but containing a moral lesson.

3\. "Your parents won't die." False, but translated properly ("Your parents
won't die while you are a dependent"), probably true.

4\. "2,998 people died in 9/11". True, but statistically at odds with its
public perception.

The only harmful lie among those is the last one--the one that isn't a lie--
and only because the "lesson" its constant repetition is designed to convey is
disconnected from it.

..............

When I was a kid, I was told, _literally_ , that bad people went to a hell and
slept with burning maggots. This cartoonish lie has done me no harm.

~~~
brlewis
"Grandma went to heaven" is not falsifiable.

I'd prefer keeping this discussion focused on falsifiable lies. Let those of
us who believe in the resurrection of Jesus, the coming of the semantic web,
or other supernatural phenomena believe what we want to believe.

~~~
mynameishere
When something is falsifiable, that means it is suitable for examination by
science. When something is not falsifiable it should be considered false, in
most contexts.

~~~
brlewis
"When something is not falsifiable it should be considered false, in most
contexts."

Is the above sentence falsifiable? How do you examine the "should be" question
with science?

If it is not falsifiable, should it be considered false, or is it an
exception? How do you pick exceptions?

My two assertions about your sentence: (1) It is not falsifiable. (2) You
consider it very useful.

~~~
Retric
It is falsifiable if you can find a single non falsifiable thing that would be
useful / treated as true.

~~~
randallsquared
"Life has meaning."

~~~
randallsquared
Actually, this doesn't fit here, because "useful" implies "for a goal", and if
there's no ultimate goal to life, then nothing is useful. So "life has
meaning" is just another example of something that is only useful if true. Ah,
well.

------
zach
This is the first PG article I've felt a certain way about, which is that its
scope exceeded my interest. I may yet read the rest of it soon. But
fundamentally, I must point this out:

> By 15 I was convinced the world was corrupt from end to end. That's why
> movies like The Matrix have such resonance. Every kid grows up in a fake
> world.

Or the classic example, The Catcher in the Rye. Adolescents are caught between
a desire for authentic reality and romantic idealism. They profess to want the
former but seek the latter.

------
tdavis
After living in suburbia for 23 years (and finally getting out this month,
thank "God") I can attest to most of this. One thing PG doesn't mention is
that some people flat never grow out of the idyllic view of the world that
this segregated space presents OR become so impossibly jaded that they're
damaged beyond all repair.

One friend of mine managed to have both of these happen. Not only does he have
an idyllic view of the world, at least in how it _should_ be, but he's also
become extremely jaded, having found out that most of his views are wrong
(despite still clinging to them). These are often entirely contradictory. For
example, he believes in true love and that if you _truly_ love someone you
could never, ever do anything to hurt them. On the other hand, he's seen
enough relationships and enough cheating and other "nastiness" that he's jaded
to the point that he believes (his words) "all women are whores."

I would argue that you have less of a chance of becoming extremely jaded if
you grow up in a societal sub-section that neither attempts to hide the
gruesome truths of the world from youth nor presents them on every street
corner. In my humble opinion, suburbia is too close to the former extreme.

------
jdefontes
I think the statement "as a rule people planning to go into teaching rank
academically near the bottom of the college population" should really have a
source to back it up.

~~~
DaniFong
See for example
[http://www.ncsu.edu/chass/philo/GRE%20Scores%20by%20Intended...](http://www.ncsu.edu/chass/philo/GRE%20Scores%20by%20Intended%20Graduate%20Major.htm)

~~~
pohart
teachers seem solidly in the middle for the three groups.

This brings up something interesting, as a group, we like to think of
ourselves as above average when compared to other disciplines, but Computer &
Info. Sciences was comparable to Education. Consider that in many states, ALL
teachers must go to graduate school, so many more of them are taking the GRE
than Computer & Info. Sciences.

I suppose most schools with Computer Science grad programs probably also have
a lite Information Science/Business program that would drag our scores down
significantly. I know mine did.

~~~
DaniFong
'Education - something' seems to fill a lot of lower rungs.

I know that these scores were a semi-common meme around grad school when I was
there. People wondered why philosophers/physicists/mathematicians gravitated
towards each other, but it was silently suspected among a few of us that it
was due to similar analytical ability. The results were even more pronounced
when the logic test still existed.

I think that one shouldn't overemphasize the mean though. There's a lot to be
said for the distribution -- in physics, the entire lower part of the curve
gets weeded out. That doesn't seem to happen in CS. And philosophers learn to
write arguments and navigate arcane vocabularies as a matter of course.
Perhaps the math result is indicative of general ability, but they have to do
logic, too.

------
edw519
Einstein, like many people, felt differently about religion at different times
in his life, throughout which he maintained his Jewish identity.

Young Einstein's observation about religion cited in the article should
probably be balanced by older Einstein's insight, "Science without religion is
lame, religion without science is blind."

~~~
TunaFish
I find it funny, if also a bit sad, how strongly certain societal groups try
to spin Einstein's views about religion decades after his death. For insight,
I offer a bit more of his text around that tiny little quote that is so often
used out of context.

" _The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is
lame, religion without science is blind.

Though I have asserted above that in truth a legitimate conflict between
religion and science cannot exist, I must nevertheless qualify this assertion
once again on an essential point, with reference to the actual content of
historical religions. This qualification has to do with the concept of God.
During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution human fantasy
created gods in man's own image, who, by the operations of their will were
supposed to determine, or at any rate to influence, the phenomenal world. Man
sought to alter the disposition of these gods in his own favor by means of
magic and prayer. The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a
sublimation of that old concept of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is
shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in
prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes._" (whole text is
available at <http://einsteinandreligion.com/scienceandreligion2.html> , and I
strongly recommend it.)

This brings us back to the issue of lies. That quote is so often used to state
that Einstein was religious later in life, while less than 2 paragraphs away,
he completely eviscerates the idea of personal god. Obviously, someone here
has told a lie of omission. Was it you, or the one who first told you about
the quote? Does this, in any way, lessen your trust in the truthfulness of
that source? Will you now be going around correcting other religious people
when they use that quote to assert that Einstein believed in a god later in
his life?

~~~
edw519
"I find it funny, if also a bit sad"

"certain societal groups try to spin"

"tiny little quote that is so often used out of context"

"This brings us back to the issue of lies"

"so often used to state"

"completely eviscerates"

"Obviously, someone here has told a lie"

"Was it you"

"one who first told you"

"lessen your trust in the truthfulness"

"Will you now be going around correcting"

My nominee for "Bait of the Year". Nice try.

~~~
TunaFish
I admit it, I just couldn't resist. The parent was a better bait, however, far
more subtle. I'm not very good at this.

Still, as far as I know, I didn't actually lie, I just wrote the truth like a
jackass. How do you classify that?

------
brent
"On a log scale I was midway between crib and globe."

That is a gem of a description of suburbia.

------
j2d2
When I was younger my Dad used to tell me roadkill was just sleeping. I
remember accepting this for a while. One day, my Mom was driving behind
someone who ran over a cat. The cat thrashed around in the road for a long
time until it finally laid down, breathing very hard. My Mom told me to stay
in the car and told me explicitly "you don't want to see what this cat goes
through right now." I sat and contemplated what the cat must be going through
and came to a point where I felt I understood it. The next year, when my
neighbor killed herself, I was able to accept her passing with much more ease.
IMO a gradual path to accepting death worked out well for me.

~~~
pchristensen
That's a key reason for many "lies" told to kids - let them deal with it when
they're ready.

~~~
j2d2
Precisely the point of the story. :)

------
sofal
Am I the only one here who disagrees almost completely with everything that is
said? I don't mean to be disrespectful or offensive here. I'm just trying to
get a feel for whether or not I'm the outcast in this corner of the Web.

~~~
shawndrost
What do you disagree with, and why? Dissent is fun to read about.

~~~
sofal
I sense that some of the disagreements that I have with Paul Graham are deeply
fundamental and have to do with the fabric and meaning of our existence. First
of all, I'm a religious person. This I have seen immediately qualifies me for
ridicule from some on a forum such as this, as believing in God is seen as the
logical equivalent to believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. If you
think I am totally deluded because of my beliefs, I would ask that you at
least show respect for the fact that I am devoted to them and value them
sincerely.

I'll pick one thing for now. In the part about sex and drugs, Paul mentions
that parents' desires for instilling confidence in their children conflict
with their desires to teach children that they shouldn't trust their own
judgment.

Teaching a child to avoid doing the wrong or evil thing does not have to be a
matter of making the child submit to the parents' will. If a parent teaches a
child correct principles (and yes I believe that there are fundamentally
correct and incorrect principles), than the child can understand these not
only logically, but morally (or spiritually, whatever you prefer). A child can
and will be tempted to dabble in things like illicit sex and drugs. However,
if that child has been properly taught, then he or she will know that those
temptations go against the child's better judgment. There are two forces at
work in a child's mind here. One is the natural desire to take the easy way
and receive the certain immediate pleasure, the other is the desire to be
wiser and live by a higher standard. A parent can instill confidence in a
child by showing them that they trust the child to make the right choices. If
a child makes a wrong choice, it is not because they used their own judgment
instead of their parents', it is because they failed to use their own
judgment. They can often feel that they have betrayed the trust that was given
them.

Many of you may dismiss this as sentimental hogwash or religious tripe. You
may say that this judgment that I describe a child learning from his or her
parents comes about through brainwashing and lies. I only ask you to keep an
open mind and consider my point of view carefully. Many others share it,
though maybe not here.

~~~
Prrometheus
>f you think I am totally deluded because of my beliefs, I would ask that you
at least show respect for the fact that I am devoted to them and value them
sincerely.

Belief qua belief does not deserve respect. That is a self-serving myth told
by believing people.

~~~
sofal
How about civility? That's kind of like respect. Do I "deserve" any civility?
If it's a myth and a self-serving lie to think that you should show respect
for other people's beliefs, count me as one of the self-serving liars.

~~~
r7000
If I were having a conversation with a friend I would prefer Prrometheus'
comments to yours. If I were told in response to something I said: "Belief qua
belief does not deserve respect", first of all I would think "Alright! Half-
baked Latin! That justifies the price we paid for these coffees!" but also I
would be happy to be given the chance to advance the conversation. I would
have been given a choice either to explain to my friend that I had not got my
point across and to try again, or I could discuss why "belief qua belief" does
deserve respect.

However, if the conversation began with my friend telling me "you will
probably just dismiss this" and especially "many others believe this" I would
feel insulted/dismissed.

~~~
sofal
I think you're right about that. I've made a few defensive comments in
anticipation of and in reaction to antagonism. It's pretty weak of me to be
defensive and reactionary in that way. I didn't intend it to insult or dismiss
others' viewpoints, yet it did. Thanks for that comment.

~~~
r7000
Thanks for taking that in the way I intended. I think it is understandable. A
"discussion" on the net can feel like a hundred people quickly walking by and
taking a quick potshot rather than a genuine exchange of opinions.

------
iamwil
"And after having spent their whole lives doing things that arbitrary and
believing things that are false, and being regarded as odd by "outsiders" on
that account, the cognitive dissonance pushing children to regard themselves
as Xes must be enormous. "

Typo: I think there's suppose to be an "are" in "lives doing things that ARE
arbitrary"

~~~
pg
Thanks, fixed.

~~~
bdr
Is this intentional? "the anaesthesia was too too much for it"

~~~
pg
No; fixed that too. BTW, it saves space on comment threads if people tell me
about typos by email (my username @ycombinator.com).

------
glymor
Stephan Pinker has argued that swear words cause a involuntary negative
emotional response similar to the slight of an angry face:
[http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/books/stuff/media_articles/TNR...](http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/books/stuff/media_articles/TNR%20Online%20%20What%20the%20F%20)(1%20of%203)%20(print).htm

So parents not wanting there children to hear taboo words would seem to be
better considered as another example of not wanting their children to exposed
to negative/frightening experiences.

------
outofocus
Fantastic read.

My son has always been allowed to swear as long as he chooses appropriate
times and places. The words aren't particularly important since a person can
be extremely rude and/or cruel without ever swearing. So instead he has been
taught about about the taboo surrounding swearing as well as the importance of
communication.

I want him to be a kid and have a good time and feel safe but I also want him
to be realistic and prepared. Sometimes it's a balancing act but I never get
lazy and tell him untruths.I've considered it but it seems a slippery slope.
My son is also very perceptive so when things don't add up, he's quick to
point it out.

At times I will give him a simple answer but I tell him it is a simple answer
and that I can tell him more if he wants it, now or later. He usually opts for
later. If I don't know something, I suggest that we google it and research it
together.

I've read that adolescence is somewhat of a new thing (past 100 years or so)
and that it is lasting longer and longer because of the way children are
coddled by their parents while overwhelmed by options via media. It's my hope
that by keeping things real that he will be able to utilize the world around
him rather than become another indecisive, selfish, bored 25 year old years
away from exiting their adolescence.

------
scott_s
Protecting kids might be _one_ of the reasons that people move to suburbia,
but it's not the only reason. People like living in large houses and having
land. That's exorbitantly expensive in the city for middle class families.

I also grew up in the suburbs, and I experienced the boredom pg talked about.
There was nothing for me and my friends to _do_. I remember thinking that
living in an urban environment would be unthinkably exotic.

~~~
jcl
I think you may be overestimating the importance of geographic locale. Are
suburban teenagers really less bored than urban teenagers? Or, for that
matter, more engaged than rural teenagers? It's possible that some teenagers
are just naturally bored, and that even in environment with plenty of
activities, familiarity will eliminate enough that there is effectively
nothing to do.

~~~
scott_s
It's possible, as I'm merely talking from my own experience. But I clearly
remember thinking that living in walking distance of commerce as any kind was
exciting. There was a clear split in my mind between "places people lived" and
"places people shopped." In the suburbs, there's not much for kids to do other
than hang out at each other's houses.

Once we could drive, we spent a lot of time hanging out at Denny's and IHOP. I
think, but obviously can not prove, that if we lived in walking distance of a
downtown area, we would have been less bored.

------
tdietz
Excellent essay!

Oddly enough, I'm learning more and more about the lies or mistruths I've
grown into believe through the Internet. By reading blogs and content on other
sites, I've realized that many things that I grew up thinking were the truth
are actually urban legends, mistruths, or downright lies.

Part of that comes with a sense of sadness, but also part of it brings hope.
Never have we had so much information available to us. Granted, much of it is
crap (as the web is just a reflection of society) but it's pretty easy to find
the 'right' answer if you look around.

What I found a little depressing is when you learn that someone you really
respected (parent, teacher, clergy) was wrong or believed the same lie you did
but didn't accept the truth. It's sort of like the phrase "event a lie becomes
the truth" but more at the psychological level--as if it genuinely gets burned
into ones brain.

I rarely will accept an article on its merits alone. For example, I typically
will read user comments on news articles--it really puts things in
perspective. So much as to sometimes change the entire view of a story.

Hopefully this will become commonplace and my kids will eventually grow up
smarter than me--just not too soon :)

------
johnyzee
I'm not sure that keeping kids innocent helps their learning. I've met many
kids who have 'seen too much' by accepted standards and invariably they have
been by far more emotionally mature than their peers, often enabling them to
do well in terms of education.

Unless there are other factors at play, such as adverse social conditions, I
think kids can handle more reality than we tend to believe.

~~~
pchristensen
I think this plus pg's point about "cuteness" is key - kids are ready to be
emotionally mature, but parents don't want to let them have the experiences
required to gain that maturity.

~~~
johnyzee
Exactly. The key is what pg hinted at, that parent's like their kids to be
cute and innocent, which is usually self-serving if we are completely honest
about it.

However, pg seems to assert that the alternative is being jaded and cynical,
which does not fit with the children I know who have, for example, witnessed
death up close and personal.

------
abahmonkey
I was not lied to in this fashion. I was raised a Quaker, and we don't lie.

My parents told me about sex, prostitutes and drugs from a young age (5?).
They told me sex and drugs were fun, but even better for your soul if you
waited for the right person in life.

Having only had a sexual relationship with my wife, I can't say if this is
true, but it certainly feels true. At any rate, because of their honesty I
didn't feel like the world conspired against me, instead I felt that it
trusted me and relied upon me to make correct decisions.

Paul - I'm surprised at you to put this model forward as the correct model.
Why can't we create children better able to make their own judgements by being
more honest and asking more of them?

Another complaint: people may move out of the city because _they hate the
city_. I would prefer to live in the woods (and I grew up there). I never felt
it was stale, I never felt trapped or bored. Working in NYC now, I am counting
the hours until I can move back to somewhere beautiful.

~~~
xcombinator
I hate the city(living)too.I live in a eurpean suburb-village, PG talks about
american suburbs. Every person I know from america tells me the same America
lacks social spaces. Solution is not city center through.

Cities are unnatural,noise,too much people,stress. I like going into cities
when I need, but not living.

------
shlomif
Wow! Great article. I was getting tired of all of the articles PG wrote about
startups - if you ask me, that was too much of a good-but-not-very-good-thing.

If I were to start a startup, I would find some of Paul Graham's advice
useful, but also, due to its size, it became a very big and incoherent potato
mash in my head. :-)

So I hope to see more essays and articles by Graham about non-startup stuff. I
have some good ideas for open-source-but-commercial ventures - not all of them
FOSS related, and may eventually become a "professional" webmaster/blogger (=
someone who makes a living out of it). But still I find that I'd rather hear
general software management and software-development advice and philosophy
than something specific to startups.

So I'm glad PG is back to more diverse essaying and wish him the best of luck.

------
parent
I respectfully disagree with your comment about the Thanksgiving Dinner lie.
You stated, "that was probably the best way to handle a frightened 10 year
old."

In my experience a far better way would be to tell the truth, "I don't know if
the Turkey wanted to die." Then, the parents could parent the child and
explain how everything needs to eat to live. It was a perfect opportunity for
the parents to illustrate why they purchase certain brands of Turkey, don't
eat hot-dogs, are vegetarian, go hunting, etc.

Would your friend have spoken the same lie if he had been alone with his
child?

It is a parent's job to judiciously teach their children, not to lie when they
don't know how to teach or find it inconvenient to do so.

~~~
pg
I was talking about my mother calming my fears after watching the documentary
about pollution, not the Thanksgiving lie.

------
Dave-B
This resonates with me pretty strongly, as does “Why Nerds Are Unpopular”.
Both match my experience as a teen (back in the 1970s) and my observation
since. While I’ve written a little about some of the same phenomena, these two
essays do an astounding job of documenting and explaining what I had not
processed as thoroughly.

One thing struck me, though. Several motivations for lying to teens about sex
are cited, and I certainly agree that those motivations are important.
However, I was surprised that an important one was overlooked, since it
figures so prominently in “Why Nerds Are Unpopular”.

In that essay, the argument is made that teens are penned up in school because
they no longer have a place in a modern economy. Since a teen can’t support a
family, preventing sex, the biological purpose of which is to, well, start a
family, becomes a priority. So there may be a pragmatic reason as well as
sentimental ones for lying about sex.

NB: I’m not one of those “abstinence-only” types; I’m a firm believer in the
old military adage that one should never give orders that will not be obeyed
and cannot be enforced. (I agree with the prescription given in the essay, to
give teens the straight dope, but to impress on them that their judgment may
not always be trustworthy.) Abstinence certainly is effective at preventing
conception, though, and when loaded with cultural and sentimental baggage to
give it more power, the development of such a fundamental dissonance between
society and biology makes perfect sense.

------
gforceforever
I enjoyed reading this. I specifically searched for anything pertaining to
"when parents lie to kids", and this popped up. I do not have children (by
choice), and I have completed a master in education, so I have researched
learning theory. I see my sister and her husband lying to their children, and
I abhor such practice; children are merely young adults who need to learn
efficiently and effectively, so that they may comprehend what it takes to
survive independently. I see your point about keeping reality from children
until they are learned enough to make their own determinations about when
enough is enough with respect to education, yet I still believe that,
regardless of the measure of hardened reality to which they are exposed, they
are ultimately responsible for their own learning motivation, save for the
very early prompts that parents are responsible for instilling in them during
the behaviorism years.

I have believed for many years that lying to children about Santa Claus, among
other things, causes children to distrust parents and other adults, which is
likely not intended by parents, but which is a very real effect of misguiding
their concepts by deceit so early. To effectuate a lifelong positive result,
parents and teachers should strive to ALWAYS tell the truth, so that the child
(young adult) will NOT be shocked later in life by simple, inevitable
realities such as death, disease, or inconsistencies in human behaviors. The
truth is ALWAYS the best policy at any age. It is too bad that parents are so
selfish as to hope or believe that they are doing their children favors by
false lights, false hopes, and false expressions. If the truth sets us free,
then what are parents doing when they lie, but creating a virtual prison for
their offspring?

------
ArsenicJulep
In general, I really liked this article, and found it thought-provoking.

However, saying that Marie Curie was included in the science books just
because she was a woman is insulting and untrue. She was one of the all time
greats--the only person besides Linus Pauling to win not one, but TWO Nobel
Prizes. Despite extremely meager resources, and at great personal cost, she
discovered, isolated, and named two new radioactive elements, polonium and
radium. She also discovered thorium, but didn't get official credit for it.
She discovered radiation therapy for cancer. Her work laid the foundation for
the the work of Max Planck and Niels Bohr and the nuclear age, both its
helpful and harmful aspects. Without her work, there would have been no atom
bomb, and no nuclear energy. Her influence is vastly important and far-
reaching.

Parents don't want their children to swear because it's vulgar and coarse.
Well-bred people used not to swear at all, but it has become increasingly
common among people of all backgrounds.

------
Banaticus
To adress the subject of religion...

"You can't distinguish your group by doing things that are rational, and
believing things that are true." Why not? Unlike virtually every other
religion, the more educated a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-
Day Saints (the Mormons) is, the more active in their religion they tend to
be. I choose to affiliate myself with that group because they seemed to be the
most rational of all the other religions -- at no point did they ever say
something which seemed silly like, "What, you think it doesn't make sense? But
that's the beauty of it!" I was given a challenge. Read the Book of Mormon
then pray about it. If there was a God, then I would receive some sort of
response. If there wasn't a God, then I wouldn't receive a response. Formulate
a hypothesis -- establish it as a question. Make a prediction. Experiment and
see whether the prediction was correct -- did the hypothesis hold together? I
believe that God is real, miracles still happen, etc.

------
JMTeach
Unlike most of you, I dislike this essay. I think it is cynical, hard, jaded,
and in many cases, ironically full of untruths. As a public school teacher,
the part that outraged me was the following quote: "The sad fact is, US public
school teachers don't generally understand the stuff they're teaching very
well. There are some sterling exceptions, but as a rule people planning to go
into teaching rank academically near the bottom of the college population." At
my school, most of our teachers were at the very top of our college
populations, ranking in the top 5% of our graduating classes. The exceptions
(the ones who went into teaching because they had no other options and thought
it was "easy") are few and far between. Most of us have master's degrees, and
several have doctorate's. To say that most teachers do not know their subjects
well is simply untrue; sure, there are exceptions, but there are engineers,
journalists, doctors, and authors who are only subpar. In an essay arguing for
the truth, this author has lost credibility as a speaker of the truth.

------
adamsmith
pg -- do you have to work hard to remember particular conversations from your
childhood? (E.g. in the 6th grade when your father contradicted your teacher.)

I can only seem to remember events related to girls, programming, and church.
I don't remember particular conversations I had with my parents or teachers.
Conversations with my favorite grandfather seem to stick out.

It seems like I should sit down and try to remember past realizations and
conversations. I've never explicitly tried that.

~~~
pg
I can't remember dialogue, generally. What I seem to be able to remember best
are things that surprised me. What I remember about that conversation was
simply my surprise at my father contradicting a teacher. But I don't remember
what about, for example, and I only know it was 6th grade because I remember
the teacher.

------
jaydub
"It's not enough to consider your mind a blank slate. You have to consciously
erase it."

I really liked this point, and I feel its a good way to sum up the points Paul
made. I think at times we underestimate the impact of socialization (work,
school etc.) and we mentally seal off certain doors (opportunities) to mesh
with the norms. With all the noise that we are absorbing, this notion of
reconsidering even some of the more 'basic' assumptions becomes all the more
important.

------
bmueller
"You shouldn't put the blame on one parent, because divorce is never only one
person's fault. [8] Really? When a man runs off with his secretary, is it
always partly his wife's fault?"

YES, and for TWO reasons: 1\. If a man (or woman) runs away with another woman
(or man) it is because the primary relationship has a fault and a severe one.
No person, male or female, gives up a relationship just like that. I am not
talking about a "one night stand" which might come out of a situation,
sensation, ..., because that will never endanger a relationship. But if a
relationship is so weak that one partner seeks love in a different person, it
is because he cannot get it in his primary relationship any more, although he
would like to. 2\. If the woman (or man) that is left behind is no more
willing to recover the old relationship it is certainly her or his fault as
well. Someone who really loves her or his partner is always able to get him or
her back. There is an old saying that the lover has never a chance against the
married partner and that is true. Actually, I know all this from own
experience, not from theory !

------
jimbob3450
I find the idea of innocence to be interesting. In a child it seems to be a
lack of awareness of the consequences of their own actions.

This is brilliantly illustrated by the TV show "the Simpson's" where the roles
of Bart and Homer are reversed for the most part. Bart generally understands
the consequences of his actions whereas Homer doesn't have a clue. Homer is
the innocent in this case.

I find this definition of "child-like" innocence pretty robust, it seems to
fit with most of my experiences. Knowlege is what destroys this form of
innocence, not evil, so it explains a lot of the lies that we tell. Adults
vicariously enjoy the hope of their children and fear that telling them the
"truth" will spoil the vision.

With my kids (I have 5 kids and 2 grandkids) I have tried to be as honest as
possible but when you understand the "truth" to be very complex it becomes
difficult to provide a simplified view that a child can fully understand
(especially when you know you don't fully understand it either). A partially
understood truth may be as misleading as an out-and-out lie but more difficult
to unravel.

Another reason adults like to preserve the "innocence" of their children is
that it reminds them of when they had hope and helps them relive or rediscover
it.

------
EliAndrewC
I think that it's only a lie to tell a child that they are an X if you also
lead them to believe that this is a lifelong identity.

For example, I don't mind telling children born in the US that they are
American children. They might grow up, move to another country, and change
their citizenship (my mother knows people who have done this). So saying that
they're American children is simply a description of their current state.

This would only be a lie if you let them grow up with the notion that they
should stay Americans all their lives and that it would be somehow wrong to
ever switch nationalities. Indeed, I imagine that many Americans would
consider this unpatriotic and probably to some extent a betrayal. But it
doesn't have to be that way.

The same thing is true for religion. Obviously many (if not most) religious
groups don't bring children up to question their beliefs and decide for
themselves what they believe and whether they want to belong to any religious
group at all. But some do, and so I think it's possible to tell a child that
they are a Christian child or a Muslim child or an atheist child without it
being a lie. Just like telling them that they're an American child, it can
simply be a description of their current state,

------
divia
Having grown up in Manhattan myself, pg's description of kids who "seemed to
have lost their virginity at an average of about 14 and by college had tried
more drugs than I'd even heard of" doesn't ring particularly true for me. I
knew some people like that, but I knew far more who were nothing like that. I
don't mean to imply that the people I knew were a representative sample, I'm
just not convinced the people he knew were either.

------
wumi
"It's obvious now that he was on the list because he was black (and for that
matter that Marie Curie was on it because she was a woman), but as a kid I was
confused for years about him. I wonder if it wouldn't have been better just to
tell us the truth: that there weren't any famous black scientists. Ranking
George Washington Carver with Einstein misled us not only about science, but
about the obstacles blacks faced in his time."

(I would comment about Curie but someone already did)

Not sure if any school I know of raises GWC on the same pedestal as Einstein.
For better or for worse, most people in America regard Einstein as one of the
smartest people that ever lived, and the same is definitely not true for
Carver.

" Public school textbooks represent a compromise between what various powerful
groups want kids to be told. The lies are rarely overt. Usually they consist
either of omissions or of over-emphasizing certain topics at the expense of
others."

What powerful groups in America wanted a black scientist to be seen on the
same level as Einstein? Carver is usually seen as a very smart black man,
which if anything, belittles blacks as if this was the one and only black who
could achieve anything in an advanced field.

~~~
Prrometheus
During Black History Month, children will learn about nothing but black
scientists. As far as I can recall, the most important one did something with
blood types.

>What powerful groups in America wanted a black scientist to be seen on the
same level as Einstein?

Identity politics runs very strong in classrooms, which tend to be politically
controlled by left-wing teacher's unions. I've spent years of my life learning
about the lives of various Indian tribes, for example.

~~~
wumi
not any school I went to did we spend BHM learning about black scientists.

That's a very broad brush your painting, and I wonder if you have some actual
data to back that statement up, other than you personal experiences learning
about Native Americans.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
Well, this is just anecdote, but I'm a 25-year old from North Carolina where
in elementary school we did spend at least part of February (Black History
Month) doing a unit on GWC.

------
sum
Exposing children to too much within a short time - which tends to happen in
their teenage years as they become more mature - does overwhelm children. They
may not have the mental tools and the feeling of not being able to comprehend
or cope may give rise to negative emotions - guilt and insecurity. In the pre-
teens and early teems, how information is presented to the child depends on
the parents. The influence of the school, peer pressure, etc starts taking
over pretty soon. While keeping the children away from everything in a sterile
environment is not correct, there is nothing wrong in choosing the right time
and place to help them learn. Finding out their reactions to various things,
and explaining there could be many ways to approach something of which some
ways are better than others, etc. takes time, effort and patience. As an
involved, committed and hopefully intelligent parent, there are times when I
have to resort to saying "Oh, thats a bigge thing - you will learn it soon!".
To me that is not a lie - that is like saying first learn your A, B, C. then
you can read that very colorful picture book and enjoy it.

------
trashbird1240
Mr. Graham,

Thanks for writing such a questioning essay. I have two young boys and have
spent a lot of time thinking about how my wife (an African-American physician)
and myself (a European-descended American evolutionary biologist) are going to
say to them about sex and drugs and death. My wife and I usually resolve these
conversations by saying that we won't have to have "the talk" because our sons
will be hearing about birth control from the time of their own birth. So far
that's been true. Now that my older son can talk, I'm surprised about the
stuff that I feel perfectly comfortable saying in front of him. However, I
still feel like there's stuff I'd have trouble being honest about (like
explaining why people abuse drugs --- I don't understand it myself). I've
particularly thought about the duality of sex that you mention: "Yes, your
parents have sex, and if they didn't you wouldn't exist, nor would it be nice
to live here, but you shouldn't do it because you don't know what you're
doing." Obviously there are certain ways I can be honest, but it ends the
conversation a lot faster to just lie.

Another issue, that you mention in your notes, is there are some things that
kids just believe, without adults trying to deliberately deceive them. My son
probably thinks that Thomas the Tank Engine is somewhere right now being
really useful.

My parents could have lied to me about a lot, but they didn't because I have
three older brothers and it was hard to keep lying to me when my brothers were
finding out they'd been lied to. Also, I think as parents they just tried to
be honest about things like sex and death. One of my brothers asked my father
what a blow-job was in the middle of Thanksgiving dinner. I wasn't there, but
my mom tells me that my father did, in fact, tell him later.

------
peteshaw
I constantly lie to my children. 99% of the time its told with a wink, but I
have been (unconsciously perhaps) testing there ability to tell whether or not
I am joking or not.

My wife frequently jokes that "I have lost all credibility" with the children.
I think this may be a good thing. I want my kids to be always straining to
differentiate what is true from what is false, and to develop a good skeptical
ear.

------
SkunkyTruck
Great article...kinda scary, though, from the point of view of a young adult
(22) trying to shake a lifetime of careful indoctrination and religious
brainwashing.

One begins to wonder...is any of it true? As Pilate asked, "What is Truth?" Is
it even possible to find truth within one lifetime...and if so, how is it
possible to know whether it is really truth, or another carefully fabricated
lie for the comfort and peace of humanity?

I'm feeling rather skeptical about life right now...just did some research on
a subject I was raised to believe was Satan's tool, and discovered all the
propaganda I was spoon-fed as a child and teen was just that...more lies, told
for the sake of religion.

Not that I am surprised that it isn't a tool of Satan. I certainly became
skeptical about that before now. But that all the "facts" my parents used to
convince me of it were so totally fake. Especially since they taught me the
importance of good research early on. This implies that it was a premeditated
lie on their part.

------
LeWiemann
Just a quick point of identity on which I believe you're absolutely wrong. You
wrote:

"Some parents feel a strong adherence to an ethnic or religious group and want
their kids to feel it too. This usually requires two different kinds of lying:
the first is to tell the child that he or she is an X, and the second is
whatever specific lies Xes differentiate themselves by believing."

I won't try to argue with you about religion, but it also denies the existence
of ethnic identity.

Here's a counter-example: Black parents can tell their kids that they (the
kids) are black, and that's not a lie (unless you deny the existence of
ethnicity or ethnic identity), and there is no _need_ to tell any further lies
lies by which black people would "differentiate themselves" (even though such
lies certainly exist). Skin color and heritage are two very real things that
are very relevant for many people.

------
llogiq
You got one thing wrong. Most kids can and do handle the truth about death
better than most adults (Says the thirtysomething who tried not to cry at the
funeral). The reason that we lie about death is that it is one of the biggest
cultural taboos.

You are not supposed to talk about death. Keep silent at the cemetary. etc.

------
slatts
I think there is a really good reason for telling kids not to swear, and it's
the same reason novice speakers of a foreign language are warned to avoid
swearing until they're absolutely, positively certain they understand all of
the subtleties involved. To go into a foreign culture throwing around swear
words willy-nilly is to risk using them in the wrong context or in the wrong
company, which can make one a social outcast or even the victim of violence.
One can never get into trouble for not swearing, and with the cost of
incorrect swearing so high, the best course of action for most novices is not
swearing at all.

Likewise, as novices, kids lack the experience to know when the use of swear
words is or isn't appropriate, and in such a case, the safest course of action
is to avoid using them altogether.

------
gscott
I am not sure if letting the parents of children explain sex to there children
instead of myself (say these were your kids) would be a lie.

If your kids came up to me on the street and were to ask me questions about
sex and I tell them anal sex is 'the best'... is that what you want me to tell
your kids? Or maybe I should not discuss sex with your kids at all and let
you, the parent do so.

While I respect the author, you just can't write something like this and pass
it by parents of children. When you have a child and say you are in favor of
Gay Sex & Marriage and are an Athiest you want to be able to help your child
reason through these things and whatever answer they decide to pick is fine,
but if you don't have a chance to at least have a real discussion about it
before they make a decision is disappointing.

------
memetics
And in a hundred years, philosophy might be out of fashion, so should also be
listed as a lie.

OK, taking my tongue out of my cheek: You don't even know what religion is, so
defining it as a lie is . . . a lie you've told to your readers.

------
krishnakv

      I believe strongly in a set of "semi-religious" axioms (from advaita vedanta) that keeps me functional, productive and happy. I strive to be a good son, colleague, friend, etc but within the boundaries of this framework, it makes me happy and I believe it keeps the people I come on contact with happy and well too.
    

This essay leads to a question, though:

1\. Would you rather have a world view that is as close to the truth as
possible and live a life of angst and striving? (to change the various
inequalities and other issues with the world).

(or)

2\. Would you believe the appropriate "lies" (as per your "belief system") and
live life happily?

3\. How would the world change as a result of your choice? Its a cyclic
dependancy here.

------
gcolpitts
Since we lie to kids maybe we simultaneously tell them to read adult
literature so that they'll learn about some of the lies. Since we are
uncomfortable with the truth's in adult literature maybe this is why
children's literature is now so popular with parents. Annie Dillard (in her
autobiography, American Childhood, I think) wrote about this. When she was a
kid she remembered wondering "do adults know what's in these books they are
telling us to read ?"

It's interesting that parents seem very sensitive to the contradiction of
their lies in adult tv shows and movies but oblivious to the same problem in
adult literature. (By adult I mean not non-juvenile not explictly sexual
material)

------
glymor
Both examples of lies about death don't seem to be lies about death. They
would both seem to be an examples of lies designed to protect from details
that would otherwise only cause pain. Doctors frequently tell both types of
lie to adults.

Lies about death and sex etc are frequently this topic of lies between adults.
That they take a different form is of questionable importance: they may just
be because adults have to much experience to be so easy lied to, requiring a
more elaborate lie (contrast became a star in the sky and the bible).

It would be interesting to ask what lies are told solely to children and are
not simply more egregious examples of lies more generally told.

------
therider62
May I kindly ask you to correct the link to the german translation on the main
article page? It currently links to <http://www.heiniger-
net.ch/archives/167/langswitch_lang/de>, but that link doesn't work anymore.
Please link to <http://www.heiniger-net.ch/archives/167> as indicated in my
original post. I changed the way my blog handles multiple languages. Thank you
very much.

------
commentbunny
I like many of your essays, but this one is exceptional.

Recommend this book: It's not self-help. It's by a University Psychologist. We
are a lot simpler than we like to think: "Influence: The Psychology of
Persuasion" by B Cialdini

Also Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion". Excellent book that calls religion
for what it is. He notes its a survival advantage for kids to believe what
adults tell them without question: Unfortunately "Don't swim in the crocodile
infested river" is accompanied by the same stories that tell us to love the
guy who killed 2,000,000 people in the Bible, but revile the one who only
killed 9.

------
epi0Bauqu
PG: what does _suburbia_ mean to you? You paint it in an extremely negative
light, and so I'd just like some more detail of how you define that term. I
know it means different things to different people.

~~~
pg
I mean post-war neighborhoods of tract houses build on spec by developers. I
don't mean places that are merely geographically suburban, in the sense that
they're less densely settled areas on the perimeters of cities.

(In the US, practically all the less densely settled area on the perimeters of
cities are neighborhoods built by developers, but in Europe there are older
cities where this isn't true.)

~~~
epi0Bauqu
A few short follow-up questions:

1) Is any "development" part of suburbia?

2) What if there were multiple developers building the houses?

3) What if it is x miles from a town center?

4) What if the owners built their own houses in the development?

Let's get specific using the Boston area as an example.

5) Do you think any parts of Cambridge count as suburbia?

6) Do you think any of the following areas/towns count as suburbia: Revere,
Brookline, Newton, Framingham, Wellsley, Waltham, Lexington?

And finally 7) if an area is just _less densely settled_ does that make it
just as unappealing as _suburbia_ in your view?

~~~
dfranke
> 7) if an area is just less densely settled does that make it just as
> unappealing as suburbia in your view?

If you'd seen Paul's west coast home, you'd know the answer to that :-)

~~~
epi0Bauqu
Where is it?

~~~
dfranke
On a winding mountain road six miles from the nearest cross street.

------
joekickass
as usual the essay shows paul grahams brilliance, but this essay seemed to end
up as little more than an explanation for why we lie to kids. It ended up
feeling very supportive of lying to children, which i certainly don't believe
was mr. graham's goal. Obviously some lies are for protecting a child. But i
cant believe he ACTUALLY supported the idea of telling a kid that turkey
wanted to die. its because of those kinds of lies that i completely ignored my
parents after the age of 12. I COULD NOT TRUST THEM. Which is to bad because
they probably had some legitimate advise during those years. but due to my
sanity i didn't even listen to them anymore. Basically it seemed like you said
"parents lie to kids because they are philosophically lazy and avoid
meaningful thought at all cost like 95% of humans do until they die. Of course
actually trying to talk with a kid about a complex issue requires as much
mental work as talking to another adult about a complex issue. Of course your
average person isn't going to do either. so the basic problem here isnt that
were lying to kids (as you explained a few of those lies are good) but root
problem is that youre average person is addicted to ignorance and fears a
little philosophy more than anything else. and of course the children are
being raised to be just a knowledge-fearing as their parents are. I suggest
you right an essay trying to convince people (adults,everybody) that
knowledge, truth, and logic ARE NOT BAD. Because if theres anything thing that
seems to be taboo among the common man its learning. If we could convince the
world that learning was a good thing so many problems would be solved.

------
gsharm
Thank you for sharing. I'm similarly somewhat both disappointed and thrilled
by the amount of bullshit that gets thrown around, and worse still, accepted
through generations. I think it's largely a matter of habit, and the old can't
change these habits easily - the young can, but then the old often do that
work for them.

If you take a pyramidal view of intelligence, it means really the base is
getting wider over time, which is worrying, so to some extent it's the job of
people at near the top of the pyramid to push correct information downwards.

------
SystemsThinker
This article is brilliant. Lies play an enormous role in this culture. I could
go on and on about the topic, but I think one quote from A Language Older than
Words by Derrick Jensen says it best:

"In order for us to maintain our way of living, we must, in a broad sense,
tell lies to each other, and especially to ourselves. It is not necessary that
the lies be particularly believable. The lies act as barriers to truth. These
barriers to truth are necessary because without them many deplorable acts
would become impossibilities."

------
yan
"Probably the biggest lie told in schools, though, is that the way to succeed
is through following "the rules." In fact most such rules are just hacks to
manage large groups efficiently."

beautiful.

------
maxklein
Well, you obviously never felt fear. When I was a kid, if my parents had told
me the truth, I would have grown up very very warped. The somewhat scary
things they told me disturbed me immensely, if they had told me things like
"Oh, we are going broke", I would have died with worry.

I remember the fear from my childhood. Fear that something would happen to the
family. Fear that I would be alone. That lightning would strike the building.

Thank God my parents told me lies. It allowed my childhood to be happy.

------
tedward
It might help to substitute "ignorance" instead of "innocence" in your essay.
To be innocent primarily means to 'do no harm' not "to be ignorant" of the
truth. I think many parents keep their kids ignorant (of evil) because they
think it will help keep them innocent (free of the sin of committing evil). As
you imply, for a time, this seems right, but eventually you need controlled
exposure to toxins (ethical, etc.) to learn how to protect your self.

------
oillio
Maybe the easy dumb lies are the best ones to tell. When we grow up they are
obviously lies and easy to dump. They serve as markers that say, "Use your own
judgment and insert your own belief here."

For example, in the case of the turkey, maybe the absurd lie that turkeys want
to die is better than whatever belief the parents use to justify eating meat
(BTW- I'm not vegetarian). If the lie can be believed by an adult, the child
may not question it when they become one.

------
dusklight
Probably the biggest lie we tell kids, is that it is bad/immoral to lie.

Being a little older now, I have to conclude that this is a lie. Lying is like
a knife. It is neither good nor bad; it can be used to do good or bad. This is
such an important lesson and I really I wish my parents had been willing to
teach it to me, instead of making me learn it the hard way by myself like
everyone else.

Fundamentally lying is just a negotiating tactic. All that other emotional
baggage is unnecessary.

------
dominik
Ah, alas that this essay ends. I hope there will be a follow up which may go
into further detail in terms of how to go about erasing.

The entire concept of erasing ("unthinking"?) brings to mind the dialogue
between Gandalf and Saruman in Book 3, Chapter 10. Specifically: "Gandalf
stirred, and looked up. "What have you to say that you did not say at our last
meeting?" he asked. "Or, perhaps, you have things to unsay?" Saruman paused.
"Unsay?" he mused, as if puzzled."

------
t0pj
"The truth is common property. You can't distinguish your group by doing
things that are rational, and believing things that are true."

This, my friends, is a pearl of wisdom.

~~~
cabalamat
It's not true -- my local Linux user group distinguishes itself from the
majority _by_ doing things that are rational (running Linux), and believing
what's true (Linux is, for many tasks, better than proprietary OSes).

------
michael_nielsen
"I used to think I wanted to know everything. Now I know I don't."

I'd be interested to know what caused the change, and what types of knowledge
you'd prefer not having.

~~~
mechanical_fish
Read Paul Fussell's _Wartime_. Or Eugene Sledge's _With the Old Breed - At
Peleliu and Okinawa_. Then you'll know why I'm happy to study war from my
armchair, despite the fact that I'll never really know what combat is like.

It's also good to not know what it feels like to be high on heroin or hooked
on nicotine.

~~~
pg
_With the Old Breed_ is a truly great book.

~~~
mroman
I am WAY surprised to see that you have not only read it, but liked it . . . I
agree that it is a great book . . . one of the Japanese tanks destroyed in
combat is still on that very spot, with the crew's remains still inside it, at
least according to an American veteran who went back for a visit a couple of
years ago . . .

------
wrinkledamanda
Your points are brilliant, and I love how they make me think more about
"truth," or the illusion of it. To me, this is basically an essay about why we
live our lives the way we do. You almost have to think back to the things we
were told by our parents in order to realize why we do the things we do now.
It's always interesting to analyze your own self. I love the essay about
"Stuff" as well.

------
ken
"Telling a child they have a particular ethnic or religious identity is one of
the stickiest things you can tell them. Almost anything else you tell a kid,
they can change their mind about later when they start to think for
themselves. But if you tell a kid they're a member of a certain group, that
seems nearly impossible to shake."

Most of the other lies aren't accompanied by mandatory genital mutilation.

------
AdriaK
This is the best essay on parenting that I have ever read. Thank you. You have
articulated so many things about honesty that I have been trying to practice
with my own child, but could not always explain clearly why.

It's a cliche to say it, but I can't stop myself: This should be required
reading for all parents.

------
socratees
Lies told by parents do not affect children, once they grow old, they'll get
to know things by themselves. Letting a child know about sex and drugs, will
ruin the child's future - . If we got addicted to sex drugs or something else
in the first place, there is no way that we can think, or direct our future. I
certainly believe drugs take a toll on the human mind. :)

------
suzwil
I pretty much raised my son according to these principles--you met Zak at the
Stanford Y-combinator start-up seminar--and he is still the one I go to for
rational discussion on almost any topic. He is able to take himself out of the
equation and think about the problem at hand--even recognizing and ignoring
his biases. Thanks for promoting rational thinking.

------
fredb
This is a funny post. I see that you got tons of posts. Probably because
everyone who has a kid, thinks they are an expert on the subject. Can you post
a follow up with the finer points? I have four young kids and all I know is
that it is fucking hard work to do a good job and I lie to my kids whenever I
have to make life sound fair or fairytale nice.

~~~
h3h
Amazing.

------
rms
>Don't all 18 year olds think they know how to run the world?

The average 18 year old would have done much better than George W Bush. It
seems very unlikely that the average 18 year old would be considered the worst
president ever by a majority of historians. Pretty much impossible, in fact.

<http://hnn.us/articles/48916.html>

------
therider62
I hope I have your kind permission for doing this: I love your essay so much
that I would like the german speaking community to be able to read it too. I
therefore translated it to german and published it on my own blog here:
<http://www.heiniger-net.ch/archives/167>

~~~
therider62
May I kindly ask you to correct the link to the german translation on the main
article page? It currently links to <http://www.heiniger-
net.ch/archives/167/langswitch_lang/de>, but that link doesn't work anymore.
Please link to <http://www.heiniger-net.ch/archives/167> as indicated in my
original post. I changed the way my blog handles multiple languages.

Thank you very much.

------
yawn
" But why do we conceal death from kids? Probably because small children are
particularly horrified by it."

One of the hardest things for me answer was the question "Dad, am I going to
die?". Even though it is incredibly hard to tell them the truth, I do. The
aftermath of saying "yes" to that one really, really sucks no matter how you
try to handle it.

~~~
e40
At around 5 my son figured out that his mother and I would one day die. He
cried off and on for several months, every time he thought or was reminded of
it. He was not the sort of boy to cry, either.

It was during that period of my son's life that I actually felt my mortality
like a weight on my shoulders. I am definitely more keenly aware of my health
and the importance of staying healthy.

------
yarnzift
I wonder why the author remembers Einstein, Curie and Carver. Was it because
they were touted as the best scientists? Maybe he remembered them because they
were exceptional characters. One reason exceptional characters are emphasized
over typical ones in class is to pique interest (the typical student feels
atypical).

------
jgclarke
I am absolutely positive that you have no children of your own, nor have you
ever been around them. Normally I fight diligently against identity politics
of that kind (positing that you cannot understand a position without first
holding it), but with this article, you have made me rethink my general
opposition to censorship.

------
delcofredeseo
I think we want our kids don't develope the full power of analysis, since them
they should discover a huge number of contradictions in our social life,
perhaps more than they can cope with.

The problem is that this way, when they become adults perhaps follow the same
route: Don't think to much since there is no solution to this problem.

------
Rickasaurus
I really enjoyed your essay.

I can't help but think that if my kid asked if the turkey wanted to die that I
would want to take him or her in the other room, away from all of the other
parents and explain to them how turkeys are grown for eating by farmers.

I would want my child to be able to choose not to eat the turkey if they
thought it was immoral.

------
ckundu
There is a kind of lie used to spark off the child's imagination like the
Santa Claus or fairies or ghosts. I don't think those are covered in this
article. But these can help a child to visualize things those don't exist
which is the very first step to create things those don't exist (as of now)
when they grow up.

------
pfedor
A few years ago, Paul Graham wrote: "When you find something you can't say,
what do you do with it? My advice is, don't say it." This essay makes me
wonder if he chose not to follow his own advice. If he did, I wonder if it
will do him much good. It surely will make reading his essays even more
interesting.

------
varunachar
I was quite touched by the book "To Kill a Mockingbird" by Harper Lee. Its
central character, Atticus Finch, has become to me somewhat a role-model. If
and when I raise children in my life, I'll be extremely contented if I manage
to do it like he does in the story, and if my kids turn out like his.

------
wrinkles
I suggest to just shut the fuck up, and just spend quiet time with your kids.
Listen to them. Look them in the eye, see who they really are, and what they
need. Most of what they learn is not what you say, but what you do and who you
are, and how you treat them and others. Talk less and say more.

------
dimka
Interesting thing is that as adults lie to kids other higher power people lie
to the lower ones. For example politicians lie to citizens is a very similar
manner. Or doctors (or relatives) lie to sick, probably dieing patients. So
the concept is the same - to control and to "protect"

------
leonissa89
What about Santa Claus? I keep thinking of this issue these days, how much it
used to hurt me when I started understanding that there was no Santa Claus. I
keep wondering if I, in the future, should tell my kids the truth right away
about the whole Santa Claus thing.

------
richardr
2 minutes, Alan Watts, beautifully complementary to this article:

[http://www.richardsreader.com/alan-watts-on-the-
unsettling-t...](http://www.richardsreader.com/alan-watts-on-the-unsettling-
truth-about-life/)

------
mattmaroon
Is this the same article that you mentioned almost a year ago? I read it
expecting more of an evolutionary psychology approach to the teenage sex
issue.

I've read a good bit of literature about religion and its roots in EP, and why
it's such a good meme. The "payload" is part of the spread mechanism.

~~~
pg
It did at one point seem like the reasons parents don't like their teenage
kids having sex were very complex, but after reading and thinking more about
it, I decided it was mostly that they still think of them as children.

------
e40
"But if a kid asks you "Is there a God?" or "What's a prostitute?""

I've been asked the first. I said "no", and had a long (> 1hr) conversation
with my 6 yr old about the issues.

If I was asked the second, I'd say that's not something you should be thinking
about at your young age. Ask me in 5 years.

------
eayager1
The only person qualified to determine if something being told to another is a
lie....is someone who KNOWS the absolute truth. WHO would that be? Some things
we all know is untrue and other things cannot be proven one way or
another..i.e. religion.

------
daniel_yokomizo
When PG says that children are helpless and this is a thing we are wired to
like, I remembered that in japanese the word used to mean cute is kawaii, and
it also means something close to helpless (it is used to express a kind of
pity).

------
viper-2
PG:

"The famous scientists I remember were Einstein, Marie Curie, and George
Washington Carver."

You've forgotten that you mentioned Newton some time ago as one of your
heroes!

<http://www.paulgraham.com/heroes.html>

------
sriranjanidatta
parents don't tell lies to protect their children but to protect themselves.
they claim themselves to be modern but their mind set is still of the 80s .
they think that talking about sex is something very shameful and children
having sex is almost unimaginable. moreover they creat an issue about children
having sex at the age of 14 because they are afraid of the reaction they would
get from their neighbours. "what would people say..." "I will have to stay in
this society" etc. so it is not for the good of their children but to save
themselves that parents lie. Regards, Sriranjani, india

------
Create
This deliberate, although not new.

deception: Century of the Self protection: Power of Nightmares

[http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=%22century%20of%20th...](http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=%22century%20of%20the%20self%22)

------
psb
the version of the Einstein quote that I've heard used the term "orgy of free
thinking" rather than "fanatic freethinking". Quite a memorable little phrase
and shows the amount of pleasure he got from "thinking".

------
krishnakv
I don't find this essay controversial, just insightful. I can see there are
places where you are exaggerated for effect etc, but overall, the essay rings
true. Am I missing something :-)?

------
dkd
I was just wondering, is PG married? and if it is so, does he have kids? :D

------
dbrunton
I wrote a long-format response to this essay on Jottit:
<http://lies.jottit.com>. It's kind of too long to make as a comment, hence
this pointer.

------
zeeshan
I just loved this one; very thought provoking! Some very strong ideas, with
wonderful examples. I think, I am going to go through the whole thing once
again, and then ponder over the ideas.

------
atr
I think one of the best ways that I described a similar feeling was asking
others when they had questions, during their teens, nobody--including their
best teachers--could answer.

------
the_corrector
This article is being publicly translated into Russian:

<http://translated.by/you/lies-we-tell-kids/trans/>

(almost finished)

------
nazgulnarsil
very important insight: "most of the rules are just hacks for managing large
groups efficiently".

this explains most of the things that conspiracy theorists wail and gnash
their teeth about.

------
fugue
Swearing is nothing. And drugs they will do (and we pray they only dabble).
Sex is different in that (IMO) you ante up something sacred (yourself).

------
jiang_huan
Honestly I think that you are just trying to stroke your own ego when you
classify religion as a type of lie. Please justify that.

------
Mistone
regarding dying: One of the most vivid memories I have from childhood is the
time my father told me he was going to die. It was quite simple, he said,
"someday I will die, when I die, here is what I want you to do...." Its one of
those things that shaped my whole view of the world, I think I has 10 or 11.
Its more amazing to me now that I have a son, that he had the courage to be so
honest.

~~~
bikeshopgirl
I'm intruiged Mistone - what did your dad want you to do when he died? Was it
procedural or philosophical? (natch, only share what you're comfortable with
saying)

~~~
Mistone
its was procedural, a basic Muslim burial - clean the body, wrap in a white
blanked, and bury the body. So pretty simple from that standpoint.

------
morliss
The most powerful and far-reaching lies are the lies people tell themselves.
Their children are part of them, so they tell them the same lies.

------
akkartik
Quoting ratio: 1:2. (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=151561>)

------
MacEwen
On Valentine's Day this year my son called me from the passenger seat of his
best friend's grandmother's Lexus SUV.

"What's masturbation Dad?"

I had an answer. I'd been thinking about it for two years. Just allowing the
proper answer to surface.

This is near and dear for me. I'm in the process of introducing Online Courses
for parents to learn methods of raising children without lying.

I answered his question without lying.

Two years ago, when he was six, my son Romeo and I went to a 20/20 Video store
which specializes in new, used, and adult DVDs. Their selection is broad and
the set-up is family friendly. All the commercial releases are set up in racks
in the front of the store. The back third of the store is walled off w/ a
curtain for the adult titles.

We were scanning titles one day and I looked around at one point to notice my
son had disappeared. I called his name and began looking for him. A moment or
two later he popped out of the adult section, red-faced and embarrassed. This
is a huge moment for impacting the child positively or negatively.

"Romeo, come here," I said to him.

He wouldn't come.

I knelt down to be on his eye level and it was clear he knew this moment was
important to me.

"Come here," I said, opening my arms to him.

He wouldn't move.

I moved toward him on my knees and he backed slowly away.

"You're not in trouble," I told him.

"I don't want to come to you," he told me clearly.

"It's your choice," I replied. "You are big enough to decide what to do with
your body."

He softened.

"And... this important for us to talk about. I'll be ready in the next day or
two, and I encourage you to let me know when you are ready too."

He softened some more. "Okay, Dad."

Two days went by.

We were sitting on the couch and between commercials I paused the DVR and
said, "I'm waiting for you to let me know when you are ready to talk about
what happened at the store the other day."

He flushed, but seemed open.

"Tell me if now is the time," I stated.

He nodded.

"So, tell me what that was like for you."

He froze.

"Tell me if you liked what you saw and are interested in learning more, or if
it was not interesting to you."

Quietly, he said, "I'd like to know more about that."

"Tell me what you know about it so far," I encouraged.

"It has something to do with making babies and being married," he mentioned.

Not bad. At that age to connect sex and porn to marriage and babies with
little prior context. I was proud of him.

"Well," I said, "we can always talk more about this. There is nothing wrong
with bringing this kind of thing to me. My job as your dad is to help you
prepare for success in your life. Sex and women and those kinds of movies are
a small part of your whole life, and, they are important. So remember to bring
all of those kinds of questions to me."

He nodded and smiled.

"Thanks for making that easy, Dad," he said.

"Sure. And just so you know, the way our society is set up, that room in the
DVD store is for people who are 18 years old and up."

He looked at me carefully. "So I should probably only go there with you?"

Smiling I replied, "We'll probably wait a little bit until we do that, but we
can. One day. And just so you know, wanting to know more about sex and women
and marriage and those kinds of movies is perfectly healthy."

So, I wasn't surprised two years later when he called with the question about
masturbation.

Just a few weeks earlier we'd been talking about puberty and what to expect. A
wonderful friend of mine had been talking about all the hormones and mood
swings his 10-year old daughter was going through. It reminded me how much my
son prefers to be prepared for changes of any size.

When we spoke about puberty I invited him to tell me what he already knew
about it.

"Your voice drops and you start getting really strong and really hairy," he
told me.

"And tell me what else you know about it," I encouraged.

"Well, its time to start dating and getting together with girls. They get
breasts and want you to spend money on them," he finished.

Hmmm...

"Where did you learn this?" I asked.

"Just around."

"Okay," I replied. "How about I tell you what I think is missing from that."

He nodded.

"Your body is going to be going through a lot of chemical changes inside. The
point of them is to help you grow responsible for yourself when you live on
your own. They'll steer you into relationships with people so you can learn
more about sharing yourself as an adult. Sex becomes very interesting and
women become very mysterious. I'm here to help you learn what I know about it
and when you need help outside of me you have your Uncle to talk to."

"Okay, Dad."

And that was pretty much it. Until he called me and asked "What is
masturbation?"

It was just like you outlined Paul. He was with his best friend's Grandmother
and both boys had asked her the question to begin with.

She immediately told them they'd have to ask their Dad's.

My son, I'm proud to say, asked if he could call me that minute.

I was renting videos at that time and didn't recognize the number on my phone,
but I took the call just sensing that there was some importance to it.

"Dad, I have a question," came his little voice through the headset.

"Sure son, what is it?"

By now you know what he asked.

And I was stoked to give him the info he needed.

"Romeo, remember when we were talking about Puberty the other day?"

"Yes."

"Okay, well this is related. Tell me what you know about Masturbation so far."

"Nothing. I just heard it on an episode of Family Guy."

Great.

"Okay, when people pass into puberty their bodies are going through all these
chemical and hormonal changes. Some of the ways they use all that energy are
physical. People join sports teams or acting classes or learn to express
themselves in new ways. And, some of the energy can only be expressed
sexually, which means when two people come together and share their bodies
physically. Kinda like in the movies when people kiss, only they take it
farther."

"Yeah," he said, to make sure I knew he was listening.

"Now," I told him, "not everyone has someone they can express themselves
sexually with and they still need a physical release of that kind of energy.
So, for men, they'll play with their penises until sperm comes out and it can
make a big change in their quality of attention."

"Okay, Dad. And for women, they play with their vagina?"

"Exactly."

"How soon am I supposed to start?"

"There's no 'supposed to', son. And, I'm pretty sure you'll know when it is,"
I assured him.

He paused.

"Do you have any other questions?" I asked.

"I don't think so."

"How was that for you? To hear my answer?" I asked.

"Fine," he replied sincerely.

"Did you notice yourself getting uncomfortable?"

"No." He sounded as though it were no big deal. As if he expected me to have
accurate and complete information. He also sounded as though he were totally
at ease having this conversation over the phone in front of his best friend
and best-friend's Grandmother.

Realizing I'd been on speaker this whole time I asked the Grandmother if I'd
missed anything.

"No, I think you got it," she replied. Hearing her embarrassment over the
phone I could tell she was eager to wrap this up.

"Romeo? Do you have any more questions about this?"

"Nope," he replied, satisfied. "Talk to you later."

We've since spoken once or twice about the topic and it is still with the
comfort and ease of that call. Over the years he's realized I'm a safe place
to bring this type of thing.

Now I'm no parenting expert. I'm a student. And I'm passionate about raising
children to take responsibility for themselves from the beginning.

Teaching children responsibility is a skill. It is a practice. And having the
kind of result I'm pointing to above is a choice.

I'm really grateful Paul brought this up because it is really critical stuff.
I'm in the process of launching a site for parents who are seeking tools and
techniques which can allow them to move their families from struggle to
cooperation.

It's all based on the work of Dr. Jayne A. Major, Ph.D. If you are interested
in getting some of her best work check out a simple introduction page at
[http://breakthroughparentinginaction.com/announcements/first...](http://breakthroughparentinginaction.com/announcements/first-
time-here-check-this-post-out/) and take a peak.

Most of her work is available there with no commitments. For the sake of
transparency, she and I are business partners and we are launching a series of
offerings in the coming months that speak to this topic of how to raise
children very specifically.

Thank you Paul for tackling this one. It is pivotal to our children's futures.

~~~
mleonhard
What will your son will think when he finds this posting in a few years?

~~~
jtheory
If it's easily findable, I don't think he'd be too horrified. Don't you
remember commiserating with friends over how awkwardly your own parents
explained sex, masturbation, etc. (to the extent they explained at all)?

And this was a story where there was already a friend there (and the friend's
mother), so it doesn't seem much of a risk.

Posting a story about walking in on his son masturbating, or something along
those lines, on the other hand, would be bad.

------
cpanceac
<http://arachnoid.com/transitions/index.html>

------
Circuitsoft
Would it be appropriate to tell a child not to swear because they don't have a
good reason to yet?

------
mdog
A very well articulated thesis and something every parent should be aware of
as they are doing it.

------
RichardPrice
"...one of the symptoms of bad judgement is believing you have good
judgement."

I thought this was a great quote.

------
lisalily
wow that was the most insightful thing i have read in a while. I know that
there are lot of lies that are told to kids. I lived a life where i was
constantly lied to and I knew that I was being lied to. I just didn't mention
that I knew.

------
h3h
This is one of the most thoughtful and apparently correct essays I've read in
a long time.

------
tspiteri
Adults lie constantly to other adults too. And I'm not saying we should stop
either.

------
DmitriLebedev
Never heard "Ask your parents" in my life. I guess it's only in American
culture.

~~~
partdavid
So then what is the response when someone else's child asks those example
questions? If a child asks you if there is a God, do you try to convert them
to whatever you believe?

~~~
DmitriLebedev
I say what I think. I don't think saying "doesn't seem to exist, but many
people believe" may harm any kid.

If a kid asks me of sexual stuff, i'll think twice, because what I say can be
transmitted to parents in a different shape.

Let me ask: will you answer "ask your parents" in the same situations? About
the religion - do you consciously try to avoid confronting a kid with your
beliefs (that may be different)? (just want to figure out)

~~~
partdavid
I don't think it's a question of harm. As for what I'd do, that would depend
on the situation. If I answered the question, I would offer what I think,
making it clear that that's what I think. But if the child were young enough,
and were asking me to find out "the simple truth" rather than what I thought,
I would probably tell them it's a question better answered by his or her
parents. Especially if it involved specifics like "Is my grandma in heaven?"
or "Will I die?"

For the most part, what I tell my son is the truth, though surrounded what I
consider to be an appropriate perspective.[1] I think moral authority is
important as a parent, and I think that is more solidly gained by telling your
child the truth, so that they know they can ask a question of you and you'll
give them a straight, true answer, as best you can. Lying about your own
foibles, as PG points out, is a "cheap" method of gaining moral authority that
backfires badly.

[1] I think a lot of "lies" we tell children have to do with that surrounding
perspective. When we lie to avoid discussing certain subjects, it's because a
child is not yet equipped to understand enough of the surrounding perspective
to make it worth trying to understand the "truth".

------
rms
This is a great follow-up to "What You Can't Say." Thanks.

------
bloophero
The worst things about drugs is that many people die "bringing pleasure" to
the unfortunate fools that use them. I will not be lying about drugs to my
kid. They'll know the WHOLE truth, believe me!

------
billroberts
Isn't this rather off-topic for HN? It's a well-written interesting essay, as
always from Paul Graham, but is it at the top of the list for any reason other
than it is written by Paul?

~~~
pchristensen
Because it's thought provoking and well written?

~~~
billroberts
Yeah, fair enough. The definition of what should be on or off topic is always
a complex one. And I did enjoy reading it.

------
jonsen
Does God also constantly lie to his children?

~~~
sehe
Yup. But he doesn't know it!

------
zandorg
There are aliens in the Matrix?

Has he even seen it?

------
sachis
It seems to be the truth

------
riemannzeta
This is a fascinating and dangerous account of systematic errors in how we
raise children. Lies are damaging because they make truth harder to find --
the opposite of a lie is almost never the truth. But, once revealed as lies (a
key problem), they are highly informative about the state of mind of the liar.

What the essay suggests in various ways in describing how we lie to children
is that we are afraid of conflict. The world is full of conflict and violence
though we wish it were not. But we can wish it away for our children for a
short while.

Which leads, I think, to the underlying reason for Paul's discomfort with
these lies. The way to resolve conflict is to engage with it in a highly
choreographed way. There aren't many, but there are some ways that society has
devised for dealing with conflict in non-violent ways. The constitution of the
U.S. of A. is an example. Litigation and contract law are others.

Unreflective lying is thus counter-productive to a long-term goal of raising
children that have the right combination of courage and humility that is
necessary to repeatedly engage in conflict without resorting to violence.

A few other thoughts on specific passages:

"Very smart adults often seem unusually innocent, and I don't think this is a
coincidence. I think they've deliberately avoided learning about certain
things."

The thing that "very smart adults" have in common may not be selective
ignorance, but rather strong skepticism. They haven't "learned" because they
remain skeptical long after the rest of the world is satisfied with the lies
they've been told.

"You can't distinguish your group by doing things that are rational, and
believing things that are true."

The way I understand what you're getting at here is through the distinction
between a public good and a natural monopoly. Some people naively assume that
all public goods have the natural monopoly characteristic of declining average
total costs of production. This is not true. Natural monopolies occupy a
middle point in the temporal-spatial spectrum. At the low end, we have black
markets that operate in small geographical regions for short periods of time
until legal firms can enter. A black market may have a natural monopoly, but
it is not a public good. At the other end of the spectrum, we have religion
and political ideology, which are neither non-rivalrous nor non-excludable,
and yet may have natural monopoly characteristics in how their doctrine are
established and disseminated. The bizarre payload can be explained by the
leverage these natural monopolies have over their followers. Incidentally, I
am a Christian, and believe that learning and practicing Christian doctrine
would be of benefit to everybody. But I am acutely aware of the bizarre
payload that the church as an institution has accrued over many years. That
bizarre payload is a problem for people like me to try and fix, not a reason
not to adopt and practice Christianity.

In the end, I connected with this essay because I find the author engaged in
what I consider to be one of the more difficult and important human endeavors:
becoming free. Freedom cannot be had by force. It grows up in the detritus of
shattered false beliefs about self and others. Its growth is fostered by the
sun of social acknowledgment, but can wither under the same sun when not also
watered down and washed off by humble listening and a habit of self-criticism.

------
henryw
i wish i read that when i was younger. bravo pg for being frank.

------
malcdow
Brilliant

~~~
malcdow
Gordon fucking Ramsey is a fucking Micheline 3 star chef with 9 restaurants,
tv shows and is a fucking multi millionaire and says "fucking" every other
word.

Get your head around that

Malc

------
nashnova
sky is blue

------
thras
"if it's inborn it should be universal"

Yeah -- just like lactose tolerance. Right.

This is genetic, and it's one of those things that differs by genetic
ancestry. As Sir Richard Burton once said (paraphrasing here), polygamy versus
monogamy is pretty much an affair of climate (and what climate your ancestors
contended with).

------
allenbrunson
pg quotes Peter Mayle, writing about divorce: "You shouldn't put the blame on
one parent, because divorce is never only one person's fault."

to that pg replies: "Really? When a man runs off with his secretary, is it
always partly his wife's fault?"

my answer to that would be: yes, even in that case, the guy's wife has to take
part of the blame. she married him in the first place. if she was observant,
she would have seen the signs. and she could probably tell he was restless or
unfulfilled somehow, but chose to ignore it.

~~~
run4yourlives
That's an outrageous opinion, frankly.

Do you blame the people of Burma too for not "recognizing the signs" of the
impending catastrophe? The rape victim for wearing a dress that's too tight?

Blame should be placed _always_ with the actor. There may be extenuating
circumstances for the people involved, but one should never allow those to
dissolve and/or lesson the blame in the action.

~~~
partdavid
"Blame should be placed always with the actor."

I wouldn't have put it the way the GP did, but yeah, "blame," if we have to
assign it, probably does always land at least partly on both partners in a
relationship. PG was proposing a hypothetical in "outrageous" terms as a
counterexample, and arguing about the specifics of the counterexample is
probably pointless. We aren't going to establish what the specifics were in
the situation because it doesn't exist.

By "always blaming the actor" you also blame the woman who leaves an abusive
man. You also blame the man who leaves his wife because she had an affair
(though she doesn't want the marriage to end).

You're attaching a heavy moral burden to the notion of a failed marriage, and
I think where the "Both partners are always responsible for a divorce"
counselor is coming from is not one of moralistic condemnation. You're lumping
an affair in with rape and natural disaster. At best, that's hyperbole, at
worst you're trying to impose your moral code of fidelity on other people's
children.

In a world where about a third of both men and women "cheat" on their spouses,
I think it's hypocritical of society to be universally and unilaterally
condemnative of the behavior. If we're talking about the culpability in
breaking a promise of fidelity, we also need (in the context of our
hypothetical affair situation) to talk about the culpability involved in the
other promises of marriage. Was she loving, honoring and obeying him? Was he?
I don't accept that these thorny and extremely poorly-defined questions can
possibly come down to a simple equation of blame.

You might accuse me of casuistry, and I can see that. But as far as I'm
concerned you can't possibly come up with some equation of "blame" for a
failed marriage whose definition is so precise and so universal that there is
any circumstance where you can objectively and unambiguously assign it to only
one partner.

A better example lie, in the context of a divorce, might have been "children
are always blameless." It's obnoxious to most people to contemplate the idea
that children in a family might contribute to a divorce, but this is
undoubtedly sometimes true.

~~~
run4yourlives
>You're attaching a heavy moral burden to the notion of a failed marriage,

I did no such thing. You did. If you remove that point, you'll see that I'm
perfectly consistent in assigning blame to the actor.

~~~
partdavid
I'm not the one who compared leaving your wife to rape and genocide. It's
preposterous to do that and then to say that you're not equating "blame" with
"moral condemnation." And since you reiterate your consistency, I can only
assume that when a woman leaves an abusive husband, she too is solely to
blame, or when a man leaves his unfaithful wife, he is solely to blame.

That's a silly position, which considers only proximate causes, and that's my
problem with PG's "outrageous" counterexample. I don't think you can show the
statement "both partners in a failed relationship are at least to some degree
responsible for its failure" to be false.

To take PG's "outrageous" husband--people don't wake up one morning and say,
"Well, I'm arbitrary and evil, I think I'll leave my wife for no reason
whatsoever." Causes beget causes, and in any long-lived relationship, they do
so in such a tangle that you can't possibly ever assign fault, responsibility
or blame entirely on one person, even if all that you can see is that one
partner chose wrongly at the outset.

------
Antiglobalism
If we think we lie too much to our children - what about the politicians in
power that lie to us every day, and call it FREEDOM?

