
Donglegate: Why the Tech Community Hates Feminists - iProject
http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/03/richards-affair-and-misogyny-in-tech/
======
lovehashbrowns
This is a stupid article, and is exactly the reason why the Adria Richards
incident has such a negative impact on the tech industry when it comes to
equality.

People were NOT pissed because a feminist spoke up. Nor were they pissed that
someone was punished for making a sexist joke. People were pissed because the
joke was NOT sexist, in any way shape or form, and the guys who made the jokes
were unnecessarily shamed in public.

The articles premise is that the joke was sexist, and it simply wasn't.

Worse yet, it talks about HN as if there was all of this sexism going on in
the comments for the articles that were posted here. There really wasn't.
There was a lot of valid discussion on the subject that I don't think was
particularly sexist. And Reddit? Reddit has SRS. These two websites are not
some bastion for sexist pigs. They were not responsible for the death threats
and abuse that she got.

This article is a perfect example of how overreacting to trivial things will
take attention away from legitimate sexism. All it does is slow down the move
towards equality.

~~~
steven2012
I definitely think that Richards' actions were completely wrong in this
incident.

But where was the outrage to Playhaven for actually firing the developer? Any
rational person would recognize that Richards wasn't directly responsible for
the actual firing of the developer. The fact that Playhaven escaped any sort
of consequence for firing the guy based on a single tweet to me is telling.

------
RyanZAG
There is a lot to like about the article and it makes some great points, but
it also does a lot of 'wild leaps' when they favor the argument the article is
making.

 _In short, it requires geeks to re-examine their own revenge fantasies of
being outsiders who now rule the world and admit that they might, themselves,
be actively excluding others._

Right, sure.. there couldn't be any other reason than some type of strange
'revenge'. And I'm sure feminists are all about just getting 'revenge' for
when some guy dumped them.

 _This is why seemingly tiny, individual acts of sexism — like innocent dongle
jokes – matter. Such “microaggressions” combine to reinforce structural
sexism._

There is probably sexism in the tech industry (and in every other industry
too), but making a dongle or fork joke is in no way sexist. It is immature,
but there is definitely nothing sexist about it. It's akin to Shakespeare
having his characters make a joke or two about needles. Or is Shakespeare now
sexist too? (Let me guess, he is?)

I think it's important to realize that there is nothing unique here about the
tech industry. The same types of jokes are made every day in schools across
the world - and the most sexist areas I have ever been in have been the mining
and physical labour industries in Africa. The pre-school industry is most
developed countries is equally sexist, with every male teacher viewed as a
sexual predator. The tech industry is amazingly non-sexist compared to that.

If you want to convince people with your points (I was fairly convinced up
till around half way through your article) - you need to stick more to
actionable reality.

------
AndrewDucker
What this fails to mention is the _way_ that Adria handled it.

If she hadn't conducted a massively public shaming exercise, rather than
saying "Shut up, I'm trying to watch a conference and listening to your dick
jokes isn't helping." and then escalated to the conference organisers if that
hadn't helped, and _then_ escalated to a public name/shame if _that_ hadn't
helped, then I think people would be much happier with the situation.

~~~
Anechoic
_What this fails to mention is the _way_ that Adria handled it_

Because in this context, it's irrelevant. Let's say Richards was completely
and indisputably in the wrong (eg the guys were just sitting there minding
their own business and had not made _any_ response) - would that have
justified the rape and death threats?

~~~
jiggy2011
I think most reasonable people would conclude that these threats were not
justified, I didn't see any comments supporting these on HN.

If the identities of the people making these threats was known they would
likely be facing criminal charges and held in public contempt. Problem is that
we don't know their identities because they are anonymous trolls hiding behind
tor or proxies so any attempts to identify them as members of a particular
group is speculation.

So that makes it difficult to condemn these people in better terms than
"internet trolls are assholes" which everybody already thinks.

------
mercurial
It's funny how I agree with most of what the article has to say only be thrown
by the conclusion that "Sadly, what happened to Adria Richards tells women
they’re only welcome in technology if they keep their mouths shut.", which
clashes with the premise that the author would not attempt to "discern whether
Richards was in the right or the wrong". Clearly, if her only tort is make
herself heard, she must be in the right?

That said, there are clearly, in the "tech community" at large, a fair number
of misogynistic cowards, which find it a lot easier to issue death threats
from behind their keyboards. This does translate into "most of the tech
community hates feminists", especially given how PyCon was actually trying to
encourage women to get into tech.

~~~
Ilmesnkie_Jones
The trouble is that if she had shamed someone over a different kind of joke
the backlash she would have gotten would probably been much less and of a
radically different type.

Women feel threatened because there is this wellspring of misogyny that gets
drawn on regardless of whether what they say is right or wrong if they call
someone/something out on it. It would be a lot different if the reaction to
Richard's was less extreme and less misogynous in character.

------
MrDrone
I think this is a really well argued article. There is a problem in the
technology community and its not just a minority of people. There is a
pervasive acceptance of misogyny. Its not just the cowards typing death
threats its the casual remarks that build up into an environment that isn't
welcoming to women. Collectively we need to find ways to improve ourselves,
our communities and our workplaces that make them welcoming to a more diverse
group of people and not break down into bitter arguments over the suggestion
of unfairness.

------
xradionut
Really? Another re-hash of this incident by someone outside of the development
community with an biased agenda?

Painting the everyone in the technical field with a broad brush doesn't fix
any problems. Especially insulting the people who are professional, respectful
and trying to fix some of the problems.

~~~
illuminate
"with an biased agenda"

Anyone who claims to not have a "biased agenda" is probably even less
trustworthy in this case.

------
lifeisstillgood
Wait, what?

I have never heard of Men's Rights Activism - and suddenly HN is a active
example of such misanthropy?

Is this a different HN to this one? Or am I missing something?

~~~
jacobian
Go read any thread here touching on sexism, feminism, or gender equality. You
get all the standard anti-feminist arguments ("it's not really a problem";
"men are oppressed too"; "she should have just asked nicely"; "my wife doesn't
think that's sexist"; "it's just a joke"; etc. etc. etc.) I'm not sure I'd
lump HN in with the MRA jerks wholesale, but in all HN reeks of privilege.
There are several things HN does very well; gender equality really isn't one
of them.

~~~
kabuks
Yes.

I have been very surprised at the discrepancy between the level of dialogue.

When the discussion on HN is around _almost_ anything, I find myself often
learning, and surrounded by comments that are smarter, and more informed than
any I would find in the real world.

When it comes to gender issues though, I think we as a community in general
tend to be pretty behind.

I truly love HN. More than any other place on the interweb, this one has
impacted my life in very real ways. I do however, cringe when the topic veers
towards sexism. I think we can do better.

~~~
mpyne
> I have been very surprised at the discrepancy between the level of dialogue.

I haven't been. Without doubt there are some brilliant minds on HN, but even
this populace is not immune from "believing first, proving second". The group
writ large tends to fall into that trap on different topics than most people,
but it falls eventually. Not just regarding sexism in tech either; there are
others.

------
visarga
This article is vitriolic.

> One reason for this is the growing popularity of “Men’s Rights Activism”
> (MRA) — groups of men who refer to feminism as “misandry” and advocate
> vociferously that men face more discrimination than women.

It is a misrepresentation of MRA. Discussing about discrimination practices
against men does not make all feminists automatically the enemy. MRA is about
real issues that need attention, affecting boys, fathers, husbands and men in
general.

This line from the article throws blame without any justification, discredits
a movement similar to feminism as mere slander against feminism and frames the
issue as a contest "who's suffering the most, women or men?". What if both
suffer?

> Men’s Rights Activism sort of makes sense in a culture where masculinity
> places just as many limitations on men as femininity does on women.

So, men can't complain as long as the total suffering of women is greater than
the total suffering of men. It's one or the other, not both, according to OP.
Only one group is entitles to complain.

I'd comment more but I'm too angry after finishing the article. She just
dismisses men's issues wholesale.

------
amykhar
I really take issue with the article's title. The tech community doesn't have
a problem with feminists. It has a problem with dingbats who make a mountain
out of a molehill in order to garner attention for themselves.

------
steven2012
I don't really like this article, and I think it draws too many conclusions
that are indefensible.

However, I do think there was a great deal of misogyny associated with one
aspect of this entire debacle: the DDOS on SendGrid.

It's one thing to unleash outrage against Richards via social media (although
posts threatening her with violence are disgusting and should be prosecuted to
the fullest extent of the law). But to take it to several levels of
indirection and to target her employer with a DDOS to me is misogyny.

Where was the outrage and the DDOS on Playhaven for originally firing the
developer? The Internet Mob completely forgot about Playhaven's role in this
entire thing, and clearly focused on Richards and wanted her and everyone
associated with her to pay on every level they could. If I remember correctly,
there was a petition that was asking Playhaven to reinstate the fired
developer. There were no violent tweets to Playhaven or the CEO, from my
understanding. There was no such petition to fire or reprimand Richards, there
was only threats of violence and a complete shutdown of her employer.

------
tssva
"If we admit there are structural barriers to entry, and a culture that
actively discourages and women and men of color from participating, then it
logically follows that technology is not a meritocracy."

Why would we admit such a thing? There is no evidence presented in the article
to support the idea that there are structural barriers or that there is a
culture that actively discourages participation. A lower level of
participation in itself isn't evidence that either of these exist.

~~~
jeltz
Indeed, I bet the perception of outsiders for one thing is way more important
than the actual culture. It could really be anything which has caused the
inequalities so I wont accept anything without a good argument.

------
al_form2000
Just another attempt of the (liberal, regrettably) media to morph the story in
something that is not.

The incident name (by consensus) is not "Female activist is exposed to
techies' hate" but "Grandstanding blogger doxxes fellow developer, falls on
own sword." Shifting focus and sweeping inconvenient facts under the rug is
not going to make them go away.

<http://t.co/Be9d7ISHlu>

------
rayiner
I agree with everything said, except this:

> to a more inclusive one where penis jokes and booth babes are no longer
> acceptable

I'm on board with no booth babes, but what's wrong with penis jokes? It's not
like women never make jokes about bodily functions/parts.

~~~
mpyne
I think the penis joke thing is actually on a par with the booth babe thing.

By removing the various factors that have in the past led up to eventual
sexism or sexual harrassment at a professional function you improve the odds
that participants will be able to go through the conference experience without
suffering from sexual harrassment.

Like any filter it suffers from filtering out behavior which is possibly
legitimate, but is eliminating sexual-themed jokes (however innocuous) really
that bad if it actually helps with reducing sexual harrassment (or
alternately, identifying those who are actually sexist)?

That's the balance that has to be determined; is the acceptable behavior you
would wrongly exclude by a rule more valuable than the wrong behavior you
would permit without that rule?

I can make penis jokes almost anywhere else, so if banning them at a
conference would actually contribute to a more pleasant experience for
everyone else attending then I just don't see that as harmful.

~~~
rayiner
You can't make penis jokes at work, and now you can't make penis jokes at the
place you finagle yourself into getting yourself sent to so you don't have to
work. When you spend most of your waking hours working, that severely curtails
your ability to make penis jokes (or really, any sort of joke).

I have great sympathy for the feminist cause, I really do, but even in war
there is diplomacy.

~~~
mpyne
> When you spend most of your waking hours working, that severely curtails
> your ability to make penis jokes (or really, any sort of joke).

Meh, you could still do so within a group of friends even at a conference I
would think, as long as it's in between sessions or otherwise at a break in
the action. But when you're sitting in an audience surrounded by strangers and
attending to whatever professional topic brought you there, it's probably not
as good of an idea.

I come from a community that is rather famous for being "not very formal", but
we have a very clear distinction between when it's appropriate to be jovial
and when formality is called for, and when formality _is_ called for we go way
above and beyond. Not because of sexism, but the neutrality of tone is
definitely a nice side effect.

------
ovi256
First they came for the penis jokes, and I didn't speak up ... etc etc.

This situation touches on subjects that are very emotionally charged and,
whatever side one is on, we'll have visceral reactions confounding us. I
propose a mental exercise, hoping it would clear the air, if that is possible.
Reverse everything having to do with gender and sex about the situation. Eg,
two women at a stereotypically women-dominated career conference make a cringe
worthy vagina joke. Male activist overhearing them takes offense and goes on
public shaming offensive via social media. Is this mirror situation the
functional equivalent ? Would it get the same public reaction ? Would the same
two people lose their jobs and their reputations ? If no, why not ? If yes,
why ? Cui bono ?

PS: not disputing anything about the trolls sending threats to Adria Richards.
They are the lowest of the low, and their reactions were surely sexist.

------
sarde
I think the best parts of the article don't deal with gender or with
Donglegate at all.

""When considering the dismal numbers of women (as well as African-American
and Latino men) in tech, the meritocratic presumption is that these minorities
aren’t good at or interested in technology; otherwise, there would be more of
them.""

She has a point in that minorities are also heavily under-represented in tech.
I want to put aside the gender politics for now because that's not where I
feel the author is strongest. I feel that she's making a good point by
pointing out essentially: okay, you guys claim you aren't sexist. That you
treated Adria poorly because she was an attention whore and not just a woman.

But what explains the under-representation of other minorities in tech? Why
aren't there as many African America n or Latino American programmers?

I feel like she's right in saying the tech world isn't truly meritocratic.

------
fatjokes
It's interesting to me that none of the "mainstream" (Mashable, TechCrunch,
Wired) articles have discussed her public shaming of the two programmers, or
how she dealt with the issue in general (i.e., not confronting them directly).
In fact, most of these articles focus on the "rape and death threats" that
Adria received which I'd like to think are the at the fringe of this
discussion. They're nothing to take lightly, but I don't think it's fair to
say they're representative of the tech community at large.

Public shaming is a method of cyber-bullying, and in this scenario, I think
that label fits Adria's actions. While cyber-bullying is also a hot topic
these days, it seems to be completely overlooked in this matter.

I'd hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but I can't help but think Adria got her
friends in the media to write some fluff pieces.

------
omonra
Is it just me or is the entire article premised on this sentence:

"If we admit there are structural barriers to entry, and a culture that
actively discourages and women and men of color from participating, then it
logically follows that technology is not a meritocracy."

However, she fails to demonstrate/prove this fact. So if one doesn't admit it,
the whole opus is hard to take seriously.

