
"This is water, this is water." - pavs
http://publicnoises.blogspot.com/2009/05/david-foster-wallace-kenyon.html
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DanielBMarkham
This is the best essay I've read all week. Thank you so much for sharing it.
His point about the great truths in life sounding like banal platitudes was
dead on. It's the type of thing that's easy to say, but hard to convey. He did
a great job of it. For instance, his point about seeming to be the center of
the universe reminded me of Johnny Cash's great re-make song "Hurt" where he
says "You are still out there. I am still right here." Totally banal and
simplistic, but also very true and difficult to grasp. [video link]
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmVAWKfJ4Go>

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edash
I highly recommend the audio version of This is Water.

You get to hear his intonation and his interaction with the crowd...I found it
much more moving than the transcription.

~~~
lobo_tuerto
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5THXa_H_N8>

~~~
Groxx
plus: <http://www.youtube-mp3.org> (just found this)

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ldd-
I've read this piece tons of times and whenever it finds me (as now), I never
pass up an opportunity to read it again.

I can't tell you how many people I've sent this to, or shared the sentiment
with, over the years.

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mathattack
I wish I had something profound to say other than, "Thanks for posting."

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lubutu
Thank you for posting this. I'd not heard of David Foster Wallace, but having
read this and watched an interview, I've ordered a copy of Infinite Jest.
Sounds like he was a brilliant man. Thanks.

~~~
jacksonkernion
I'm a huge DFW fan. If I may make one recommendtion, do not start with
Infinite Jest. It's a wonderful book, but it's not exactly a breezy read. It's
totally doable, and it's not obscure, like, say, Joyce's Ulysses. But it is a
long slog.

Instead, I recommend reading some if his short pieces first. It'll allow you
to better appreciate Infinite Jest, and the short pieces are a little more
immediately gratifying. My personal favorites are 'Good Old Neon' from gis
short story collection, Oblivion, and 'A Supposedely Fun Thing I'll Never Do
Again' from an essay collection of the same name.

~~~
euroclydon
DFW's short stories are great. But I found one huge hole in Infinite Jest: It
was completely lacking hope. I'll take a long slog of a read any day if I'm
not just going to walk away depressed. Gulag Archipelago was worth the read
because Solzhenitsyn kept reminding the reader there was hope in humanity.
DFW, well, not so much.

~~~
idm
In the Charlie Rose interview, DFW says he expected the critical reviews to
consider the book to be sad, but instead he was surprised and disappointed
that the book was lauded for its comedic aspects.

So, I think you were picking up on a very intentional, central theme: the
absence of hope. It's not a hole so much as it is the entire point, if we're
to believe what he says to Rose.

...and it seems tired to point out his depression, suicide, etc... but listen:
Infinite Jest seems to be coming from a real place inside him, and maybe you
gained some insight into depression by noticing the absence of hope. My
understanding is that, for the affected, depression is every bit as much like
a hole inside _yourself_ , and a symptom of depression is lacking hope.

Jesus: the very thought of Infinite Jest as a 'cry for help.' Scary. Here is
part 1 of the interview:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLPStHVi0SI>

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euroclydon
Thanks, but your comment is so hard to follow. I've heard that interview
before, and just listened to the ten minute clip you linked. Nowhere did I
hear the name Jesus. What is this "Jesus: ..." thing you've got up there, a
quote? From whom? Also, the Rose interview was while he's alive, so what's
with "...and it seems tired to point out his depression, suicide, etc..."? Who
are you ellipsising?

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jdietrich
Protip: Don't take advice on how to live your life from a man who killed
himself aged 46.

~~~
tptacek
This is the dumbest thing I've read on HN in a long time. It's dumb on so many
levels (the nature of thought, the actual meaning and intent of the essay, how
depression works, and the circumstances of Wallace's death) that it actually
functions as a kind of marvel of dumbness.

If it wasn't concurrently and needlessly _mean_ , I'd thank you for writing
it. Instead, I'm just going to remember how dumb you appeared to be.

~~~
Cushman
I hate to defend the douchebag, but I'm afraid there is a germ of truth there.

DFW is perfect towards the end, when he talks about acceptance and awareness—
the thesis ("This is water") is spot on. But the way he approaches it, as a
question of choosing what to think, is fundamentally, _tragically_ wrong.

To Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy folks call that focusing on cognition
rather than experience. It's the classic fallacy of beginning meditators, who
believe the secret lies in choosing what to think, or in fact choosing not to
think at all. It makes rational sense as a way to approach suffering;
"Thinking this way is causing me to suffer. I must change my thinking so that
the suffering stops."

In fact, the fundamental tenet of mindfulness is that this is _impossible_.
Not even the most enlightened guru on this planet can not think of an
elephant. You _cannot_ choose what to think, _cannot_ choose what to feel,
_cannot_ choose not to suffer.

Actually, that is not completely true. You can, through training over a period
of time, teach yourself to feel nothing at all. We have a special word to
describe these people: _depressed_.

The "trick" to both Buddhist mindfulness and MBCT, and the cure for depression
if such a thing exists, lies in accepting that we are as powerless over our
thoughts and emotions as we are over our circumstances. My mind, the "master"
DFW talks about, _is part of the water._ If I am angry that an SUV cut me off,
I must experience anger. If I'm disgusted by the fat woman in front of me in
the supermarket, I must experience disgust. When I am joyful, I must
experience joy, and when I suffer, I must experience suffering. There is no
other option but death or madness— the quiet madness that pervades most
peoples' lives as they suffer day in and day out in their frantic quest to
avoid suffering.

Experience. Awareness. Acceptance. _Never thought_ — you can't be mindful by
thinking about mindfulness, it's an oxymoron. You have to just feel it.

There's something indescribably heartbreaking in hearing him come so _close_
to finding the cure, to miss it only by a hair, knowing what happens next.

[Full disclosure: My mother is a psychiatrist who dabbles in MBCT. It cured
her depression, and mine.]

~~~
tptacek
Wallace didn't die from a lack of mindfulness. Wallace succumbed to unexpected
and fatal drug withdrawal syndrome, after he and his doctors attempted to get
him off the medicine that had kept him alive for over a decade.

And what any of this has to do with this essay, I still don't know. I stand by
my assessment of this thread as stupid and mean.

~~~
Cushman
He died of complications resulting from depression. Call it what you want.

The GP was stupid and mean, and I'm not trying to dispute that. Shoot, I
called him a douchebag.

But it remains true that mindfulness _can_ help with depression, while this
speech is about _thinking_ about mindfulness, which sadly doesn't help with
anything. Mindfulness is a practice, not a philosophy.

From my perspective, that's tragic.

