
RIP Vile Rat, EVE Online Diplomat, IRL State Dept Rep Killed In Benghazi - HistoryInAction
http://themittani.com/news/rip-vile-rat
======
sanswork
I'm an Eve player. I'm a TEST member so for quite a while I've been an allie
to the alliance he was a member of but thats not why I know him. I knew VR
because he was one of the most well know and well respected diplomats in the
complex and amazing game of eve.

For those that don't play the game you have allies(who are called blues) and
enemies(reds), and neutrals(greys) TEST(reddit) and Goons(SomethingAwful)
always would joke about their ability to shoot blues(allies) for fun. But it
would always require a trip to Vile Rat to sort it out.

I didn't know the man personally but I have respected him for a long time in a
game that I really enjoy and from that I honestly feel personally connected to
him. I have a lot of friends in this game who actually are personally
connected to him.

Eve is fun, eve is empires with consequences, eve is taking a risk and losing
it all. Something I think the traditional HN crowd would enjoy.

RIP Sean

And condolences to your family and your many friends around the world and all
the people that have seen your messages, watched your diplomacy and looked up
to your lead.

EDIT: for people up voting me for this. I appreciate the thought but I don't
feel comfortable collecting virtual points for this. Instead of an up vote
please just post a reply.

~~~
creamyhorror
Personally I'm amazed at how high up this submission has made it on HN. I
mean, VR wasn't in the hacker or IT community AFAIK; he helped run a big clan
in a cult internet spaceship game. He was the victim of extremists in a
dangerous region, like quite a few others. Yet a blogpost about him has risen
to the top of HN.

There must be a good number of (ex-)EVE players here, or maybe it's because
people strongly feel the immediacy and tragedy of an event like this even
though they aren't part of the communities involved. Maybe they've even only
heard about EVE on HN itself, but somehow feel like this guy was someone worth
respecting - I don't know.

I don't really have a point to make, but I'm bemused and sort of glad.

~~~
mikeash
Personally, I find it interesting and relevant here for two reasons:

1\. It shows how mainstream computer games have become. There's still a
stereotype that gaming is not for serious people, but here we have an actual
honest-to-god diplomat working overseas who was also a hardcore MMORPG player.

2\. One can actually be a big deal as a diplomat in an MMORPG. I had no idea
that EVE could get that deep. I don't know if his real-world diplomacy
informed his EVE playing, or the reverse, or if it was just a matter of being
interested in that activity, but I find the whole concept of a real-world
diplomat who plays a virtual spaceship diplomat in his spare time to be
fascinating.

~~~
creamyhorror
I don't mean to deflate your fascination, but he was actually an IT
contractor/support worker for the DoS. I don't think he actually handled
diplomacy, even low-level work.

With EVE, it's often the case that the leaders perform much higher-level tasks
than they do in their everyday lives. I guess when people are given a chance
in a new environment with different rules, new leaders and people of talent
emerge. Maybe Vile Rat could have been a mover and shaker in the business or
tech world if he had moved in the right directions.

A sad loss to his family, friends, country, and EVE.

~~~
ChuckMcM
"I don't think he actually handled diplomacy, even low-level work."

Diplomacy isn't like steel working where 'regular' people can't do it without
a lot of equipment. There are really good diplomats in all sorts of places,
from the president of the PTA to the stay at home parent with more than 2
kids. The guy's ability to see the problems and a path to solutions was
legendary in the Eve community, so he wasn't negotiating who really owns what
island in the south China sea, he was an _excellent_ diplomat.

------
jahmed
Theres something missing from this all.

(12:54:09 PM) vile_rat: assuming we don't die tonight. We saw one of our
'police' that guard the compound taking pictures

This is Sept 11, 2012.

This
([http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/09/20129112108...](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/09/20129112108737726.html))
article updated at 7:02(GMT?) reports the death. The video in that story was
uploaded to youtube by Al Jazzera 9 hours ago which would be midnight Bengazhi
time (EET) <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcm_Ss0ExZg>.

So at some point roughly after 00:00 EET when the Al Jazeera footage was shot,
where we see what is described as 1500 protesters and thousands of riot
police, and 7:00 EET an American IT worker is shot and killed in a consulate.

I don't see who gains from staging protests on a sensitive day and letting an
American get killed. Of all the people who would be at a consulate the IT guy
happens to be the unlucky one. I don't think this was a 'normal' protest.

~~~
Steko
"I don't see who gains from staging protests on a sensitive day"

Did you miss that the protests were a reaction to an incendiary anti-Islamic
video?

~~~
lhnn
I don't know if you're defending the actions of these people (I can hardly
imagine), but I don't understand why people still defend Islamic protests at
ALL. Back when that Dutch cartoonist drew an offensive picture of Mohammed,
Christians throughout the Middle East and Africa were being killed, churches
burned.

The entire region is laced with (or at least completely tolerant of) hateful,
backwards savages. These "you made fun of me" protests are a way to stir up
hatred and Anti-Western sentiment, and maybe get to kill a few non-believers.

~~~
andrewflnr
I'm pretty sure he's not trying to defend them, just addressing the "this is
not normal" part of the GGP.

------
seagreen
"If you play this stupid game, you may not realize it, but you play in a
galaxy created in large part by Vile Rat’s talent as a diplomat. No one
focused as relentlessly on using diplomacy as a strategic tool as VR.
Mercenary Coalition flipped sides in the Great War in large part because of
Vile Rat’s influence, and if that hadn’t happened GSF probably would have
never taken out BoB."

Sounds like a man who was good at his job. I feel a lot better about the State
Department knowing they hire people like this. The comments say he had a
family, I hope they're taken care of. RIP.

------
Udo
He was also a moderator at SomethingAwful.com. Here's the thread about his
passing:
[http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=350...](http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506424&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1)

Corresponding Middle East thread (go to last page for coverage of the
incident):
[http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=339...](http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3390388)

There is an article in Eurogamer about him:
[http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-12-us-official-
kil...](http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-12-us-official-killed-in-
syria-was-a-senior-eve-online-player)

------
timee
I was on the other side of the war when Lokta Volterra was swept away and saw
the carefully placed agents disrupt and cripple the defense and organization.
Those events pretty much killed EVE for me as I lost everything in the game
and had no desire to rebuild.

Looking back 6 years later, it's fascinating how we touch each others lives
through these communities. While I never knew VR, I can't help but to feel
connected to this State Dept official in Libya. RIP.

------
jcurbo
RIP Vile Rat. I didn't know him personally but I feel like I did, through
being an SA forums member and playing Eve Online in Goonfleet for many years.
He was a moderator on SA and well known for being a great, helpful guy. Truly
a sad day.

~~~
Ntrails
He was a bad mod, with an awful tattoo. He was exceptionally good at eve
online diplomacy.

The point is not that he was a unique and amazing human being without fault,
but that he was our human being and he's gone. Over a shitty video that no one
sane thinks is relevant or impressive.

Rest in peace.

~~~
jarin
RIP Vile Tat.

That tattoo was truly something awful.

------
martindale
There's a mass rename of a great number of "outposts" in the game to honor
Vile Rat: <http://evemaps.dotlan.net/outposts/changes>

------
rdl
This is really sad (I remember trying to play EVE from Baghdad, but the
latency made combat really painful, so instead I just read kindle books...).

I wish DoS had more "continuous" force protection levels; they seem to go from
~nothing (relying on host nation) to absurd overkill, with nothing in between,
unlike DoD and others who have multiple levels.

~~~
ak217
>I wish DoS had more "continuous" force protection levels

I imagine they will, now.

I think State's head of diplomatic security hasn't been doing his job very
well...

~~~
rdl
What happened was they never had staffing appropriate to the mission, so they
switched to using contractors for PSD (far more than DoD ever did; for DoD,
contractors were support and logistics and low-level on base security).

The triple worldwide security contract (Blackwater, DynCorp, Triple Canopy)
seemed ok, but then there were political/PR issues with Blackwater.

------
krobertson
RIP Vile Rat. I didn't know him, but as an Eve player I've felt the impact of
his influences there.

Didn't expect to see this on HN. Interesting the differences in comments
between here and /r/eve.

------
ddfisher
Terrible. RIP. :(

What can we do to stop things like this from happening again? There's clearly
no quick-fix overnight solution, but there should be _some_ set of actions we
can take to slowly reduce/eventually eliminate this kind of violence. Any
ideas?

~~~
redthrowaway
Fight religious extremism in all its forms. Let it be known that, as a
civilized people, we will not tolerate the barbaric intrusions of emotionally
and intellectually stunted children who can be whipped into a murderous frenzy
by some priest or imam prattling on about God. Their "culture", such as it is,
is simply incompatible with ours, and ours _must_ win.

This is why the isolationists and non-interventionists are so gravely
mistaken, and why the homicidal infants have a leg up in this fight: the
latter _understand_ that this is a war of cultures, and that only one will
survive. They've already infiltrated Europe and demanded their right to Sharia
law, their right to blow up embassies because of cartoons or, as in this case,
movies, their right to bomb subways.

If we are to preserve the Enlightenment values that have raised humanity out
of the dark ages and so improved our lot in life, if we are to continue to
progress as a species, then we must be willing to fight for what we believe.
We will not win this battle with diplomacy; our enemy has no desire for it. We
must stamp out the medieval death cults that threaten us, and this will
require force.

We didn't start this fight, and let no liberal or pacifist tell you that the
suicide bombings and attacks on liberty are the result of our foreign policy;
they are not. They are the result of the inherent incompatibility of freedom
and fundamentalism. Freedom isn't free, and if we aren't willing to fight to
preserve our liberty, then we will deservedly lose it.

~~~
nitrogen
Instead of "fight[ing]," which seems to perpetuate the us-vs-them problem, why
not focus on using enlightenment itself to preserve these enlightenment
values? Instead of _attacking_ magical thinking, _promote_ rationality.
Instead of _attacking_ extremist religious belief, _promote_ its antidote, a
thirst for knowledge.

What would be really cool is if someone can figure out a way to trick the part
of our brains that craves a Disney-style magical reality into contributing to
its own demise. In other words, say to people, "Want a magical world? Join us
in the use of science and technology to build it for ourselves."

~~~
redthrowaway
>Instead of attacking magical thinking, promote rationality. Instead of
attacking extremist religious belief, promote its antidote, a thirst for
knowledge.

Both are necessary. We must bring the fruits of the enlightenment, and the
very real individual benefits thereof, to the people who would otherwise be
ripe recruits for fundamentalism. To be blunt, however, we must also kill
those who promote and carry out terrorist attacks against us.

>What would be really cool is if someone can figure out a way to trick the
part of our brains that craves a Disney-style magical reality into
contributing to its own demise. In other words, say to people, "Want a magical
world? Join us in the use of science and technology to build it for
ourselves."

While the second sentence seems suspect, I really like the first one. There
would be a sort of cosmic beauty in using the vagaries of human consciousness
that lead us to magical thinking to cure ourselves of same. Noe _that_ would
be a worthy hack.

~~~
nitrogen
_To be blunt, however, we must also kill those who promote and carry out
terrorist attacks against us._

I'm not yet convinced of this. Maybe there truly are some people beyond
redemption (with current technology), but I question how large that set could
be, and doubt it encompasses every single member of any group designated by
various governments as a terrorist organization (like Wikipedia).

~~~
nitrogen
I'm past the editing time limit, so I'm responding to note that "Wikipedia"
should be "Wikileaks". Firefox and my KDE color scheme interact badly,
creating black-on-dark-gray input boxes. Custom user style sheets don't help.

------
malloreon
SA mod too, all around nice guy.

~~~
flomo
Didn't know him personally at all, but I thought he had done excellent work in
what must be one of the hardest jobs on the internet; voluntarily moderating a
political forum. Soar in the wild blue yonder, Vilerat.

------
jeremyrwelch
Strange times we live in. Blessed to be able to learn from and interact with
amazing souls, no matter where they are in the physical world.

RIP.

------
flexd
A major norwegian newspaper just published a picture on their front page of
someone being dragged out of there.

I am not going to link it because nobody should have to see that. Especially
not anybody who knew him.

Every picture that could mean someone is identified is usually blurred out
before being published, but not today apparently. Seeing the picture made me
feel sick and disgusted with how the media operates.

I did not know Sean but as an former EVE player I have heard of him.

My thoughts go out to his family and loved ones, and to those of you that knew
him. I am truly sorry for your loss. :(

RIP Sean

~~~
waterlesscloud
Reports are that was the ambassador, who is now also reported as having been
killed in the attack.

~~~
Udo
Comparing the stock photo of the ambassador with the picture of the man being
evacuated from the burning building suggests that it was indeed Christopher
Stevens, who later died of smoke inhalation.

~~~
waterlesscloud
You think the photo is of someone trying to help him? Hmmm. Could be. Hadn't
seen it that way at first.

~~~
Udo
I think so, yes. They really don't look like an angry chanting mob to me.
Besides, it's also a good default assumption before jumping to any
conclusions.

------
dbcooper
And now the US ambassador to Libya has been killed. Another successful foreign
intervention ...

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19570254>

------
Gamefoo
Aweful, just aweful. May he rest in peace.

------
rbanffy
Positive violence feedback loop. Nothing good will ever come out of one.

------
adamgray
RIP Sean

I had the joy of talking with him often in EVE / on Jabber and will never
forget the fun we had together.

------
activedecay
A massive number of stations are changing their names in memorandum -
<http://evemaps.dotlan.net/outposts/changes>

------
lflux
Statement from Secretary of State:
<http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2012/09/197630.htm>

------
Zenst
RIP Sean.

------
Gilly_LDN
RIP Fella. Saw it on the news and thought it was a dick-move by the Libyans to
burn the Consulate.

------
gdc
Former player here. A huge loss for everyone, in game and out.

Religion poisons everything.

------
batista
I was saying back in the day in another HN post that the so called Libyan
"protesters" were a bunch of crooks and mercenaries picked up and supported to
topple Khadaffi. The Libyan case had nothing like the _real_ popular protest
in Algeria, Egypt etc.

Why? Because Libya was stable under Khadaffi (as stable as those kind of
places get) and people had it relatively very good. And yet he was portrayed
like some Dr. Evil plotting to takeover the world, so that the western masses
will cheer when he got toppled and foreign interests get the oil and natural
resources.

And the very thing was hailed as a "triumph of democracy" etc (what a
democracy, when foreign leaders cheer when an adversary is beaten to a pulp --
gone are the days when even Nazi generals were treated with respect by the
western officers when captured).

Well, it didn't last long, now, as predicted, Libya will get to be another
unstable, civil-war, dogmatic islam nightmarish country.

~~~
Shivetya
The unfortunate truth is that some of these dictators and their military was
all that was keeping their countries from turning into bastions of religious
intolerance. To a zealot anything is an offense and any offense is an excuse.

Egypt isn't exactly improving, if anything they are moving backwards at the
hands of religious zealots. Algeria is in a better state as its government is
still in place.

~~~
mcantelon
Yeah, Libya under Qadafi had the highest human development index rating in
Africa.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index)

Iran ended up going Islamist after a monarchy installed by the US and Britain,
unseating a democratically elected government, failed. Hopefully Libya won't
go that way, but wouldn't be that surprising.

------
Pongo_the_Great
As an aside ~ I find it an interesting convergence of 'our future' that the
man used social engineering / diplomacy / subterfuge to excel in the most cut-
throat and blood-thirsty game on the market, where sociopathic tendencies are
often required to 'win'.

Oh, and he played EvE well, apparently.

[He "worked IT" for an embassy in a war zone, and modelled complex
'interpersonal' relations in a vast virtual world. We've come a long way from
Pong. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loren_Carpenter>]

~~~
Pongo_the_Great
For reference for the negative score ~ " . " is a common mark of respect,
denoting a loss. I see it was removed / formatted out. (Original comment
started with " . " one line).

Are we to Ignore the fact that it's commonly known that the higher levels of
playing EvE are notorious for ruthless / sociopathic behaviours, and that
praising his on-line skills <i>might</i> have irony to it?

I'm not sure being remembered as "that total bastard from GoonSquad" is
expressing <i>quite</i> what you all intend.

[Out of Thread] [.]

------
Evbn
Translat title to English, please.

~~~
iy56
Rest in peace, "Vile Rat", a virtual diplomat in the game EVE Online, and in
real life, a State Department representative killed in Benghazi

------
agpen
Couldn't have happened to a nicer racist apologist for imperialism. RIP
Viletat

~~~
agpen
Africa would have been subjected to a bloodbath of proportions unseen in
history if the white man hadn't destroyed their culture first.

Examples I point to are as follows -

The Zulu nation was happily destroying not only all of it's neighbors, but
many of their own people as the leadership happened to be certifiably insane.
Shaka for example had a small penis (actually historically accurate) and
killed thousands of people because of it. The zulu empire was actually not the
bad one as the Matabele under Mzilikali after his loss to the zulu, took his
tribe and conducted a scorched earth campaign across the lower section of
africa destroying all in his path.

Lets not forget the laughable Xhosa girl Nongqawuse who said she saw visions
that if everybody killed off their cattle and burned their fields the dead
spirits of their ancestors would grant not only tenfold cattle in return, but
destruction of the new white Anglo/Boer civilization in the southern cape.
Needless to say after they slaughtered and burned everything no ancestors were
forthcoming and 25 thousand of the Xhosa tribe died. The tribes of africa were
largely barbaric and vicious groups of people who really only understood
killing for the most part. There were exceptions to the rule as there always
are, the hottentots, and various smaller tribes, but for the most part african
culture was set up to destroy other cultures to begin with.

I'm not going to say that they are better off having been colonized by the
europeans, but the alternative was pretty vicious as well.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
Rubbish

Zulu were a war like nation engaged in successful conquering of SAfrican
tribes yes. Just like many many others before throughout the world.

If they had learnt to build the infrastructure of civilisation like others
before then sub Saharan culture could have had one united pan- culture and
developed just like others before it.

But we destroyed that - apparently doing them a favour

Japan shows an excellent example of how to absorb technological advances
without getting wiped out - and offers an alternative to your rather insulting
White conquer or self destruction theory.

~~~
intended
Why are you encouraging debate on a comment which is irrelevant to the thread
topic?

~~~
lifeisstillgood
You are quite correct

