
A Dust Over India - Arun2009
http://postmasculine.com/a-dust-over-india
======
photon137
The mistake the author made is that he lived in India for three weeks. Had he
stayed for six months or a year, he'd have been able to figure out _what_
makes India tick - India is the very embodiment of clever innovation to
survive - it will ask you very tough questions and it will compel you to
innovate, often rapidly, just in order to survive - not even succeed. This, in
India, is known as "jugaad".

He missed the "jugaad" all around him - people, in their struggle for
survival, do all sorts of things. Lying is jugaad, dishonesty is jugaad, the
Cobra is jugaad, the marijuana in tourist places is jugaad, the beggar's
strategic location is jugaad, the dump-heap is jugaad (not all jugaads are
meant to make society better as a whole).

But maybe that's too naive. The most unfortunate in India are amongst the most
fatalistic - they give up trying - after all, they never won the birth lottery
by being born in Europe or the US, or even in a rich home in India - so why
hope for social justice? Laws are meant to be broken in India, justice is
meant not to be served (India is a study in legal arbitrage - it always has
been). Life is meant to be tough in India, values are meant to eschewed. But
even with all this, "jugaad" survives and serves its own brand of justice. The
mistake most foreigners make in India is that they continue to believe in
their ability to right the wrongs and make a change. A feeling of utter
helplessness is very alien to them. It's coming to terms with that
helplessness and digging out pockets of jugaad from that black mass of
helplessness is what makes India tick.

~~~
alberich
I'd argue that this "jugaad" happens everywhere when people are under extreme
pressure and have no good expectations of getting anywhere following the
rules.

Here in Brazil there are lots of young people that gets into drug dealing just
because they don't have nothing better to do. The grow up in extreme poverty
and society would very much like them to be dead or in prision, so they take
their chances... sometimes its better to risk a bullet to the head to get rich
and respected than to know that you'll be always poor and risk getting killed
by police or drug dealers.

And of course, this is just an example. I don't know if this qualifies as
"jugaad", but sounds a little similar.

~~~
tejaswiy
I would say you're off slightly. I think it's basically improvising very
frugally to make stuff work when it should've been close to impossible. It can
be dangerous, It can hurt others, selfish or just plain useful, but there's no
way you can deny the ingenuity.

Here're some awesome examples of jugaad:

[https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-
prn1/559248_35987216408...](https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-
prn1/559248_359872164083623_771453609_n.jpg)

[http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3231/2389399780_7e7c15f2d7.jp...](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3231/2389399780_7e7c15f2d7.jpg)

[http://www.myindiapictures.com/pictures/up1/2012/06/funny-
ca...](http://www.myindiapictures.com/pictures/up1/2012/06/funny-car-music-
system-jugaad.jpg)

[http://www.myindiapictures.com/pictures/up1/2012/06/funny-
ro...](http://www.myindiapictures.com/pictures/up1/2012/06/funny-room-cooling-
fan-only-in-india-jugaad.jpg)

My personal favorite: (Steaming milk on the roadside with a pressure cooker)

<http://sagarmukim.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/jugaad.jpg>

There's tons more examples like this, but you get the point.

~~~
crpatino
This is an universal trait of people trying to cope with limits. I've always
know it as "ingenio mexicano" or "mexicanada", roughly translated as mexican
wit. It is a matter of national pride and accepted wisdom that nowhere in the
world people are as cleaver as we are.

See some examples at: <http://quependejadas.com/tag/gracioso/page/2/>

The most amazing thing is that most of these images are probably not Mexican
at all, but stolen from redneck sites (search for: Look, I fixed it). That is
100% in character with the spirit of mexicanada. Why actually fix anything
when I can find someone else who did it and steal the credit!!!

------
erikpukinskis
People should be aware that this:

 _He said Indians will rarely, if ever, resort to violence. As a foreigner,
you never have to worry about being robbed, or having a knife pulled on you,
or getting beaten up by a gang of thugs and having your kidney carved out of
you. And this is true._

Is not true.

It would possibly be true if he changed it to read "As a foreign _man_.."

A female friend of mine just returned from six weeks in India a few weeks ago.
I'm fairly certain that if Sanjay had met her, travelling alone as OP was, he
would've told a very different story. He would've said, as my friend heard
from Indians over and over, "Leave. Now. Get on a plane and go back to the
U.S. You are not safe here."

She was lucky, and only suffered gropings, attempted kidnapping, and attempted
break-ins to her hotel room. But violence against foreign women is on the rise
in India. The U.S. Bureau of Consolate Affairs cautions women not to travel to
India alone[1]. And "alone" in this case means "in a party without men".

Of course, none of this would be visible to you as a foreign man... you just
get treated completely differently. But it's dangerous to spread the idea that
women can just go to India and "not have to worry" about violence.

[1] <http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1139.html>

~~~
swamy_g
I just heard from a friend that her friend also stayed in India for 6 weeks
and suffered exactly the same. Is that person you're talking about from
Berkeley any chance? Could be a weird co-incidence.

------
shawnee_
_I watched the endless poverty scroll by like a demented video game. I had an
overwhelming urge to stop at an ATM and withdraw 25,000 Rupees and start
handing money out to people at random._

"Nothing should be given free. Anything that is given free has no value. " -
Padma Venkataraman

In May of this year, I spent time in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu.

The exchange rate during my travels was roughly 53 Rupees : 1 US Dollar. So I
can definitely understand how tempting it can be to "do the math" and
rationalize that giving X Rupees to random person will "help". But it's
absolutely not a sustainable solution to the core and underlying problem, and
might even be perpetuating it.

I _"get"_ the concept of _jugaad_. My small solution was to not give Rupees
away, but to tip well: anybody who seemed to be working on improving their
economic situation. (Tipping is not normal practice for most Indians, but I
figured it was better than handouts.)

This video can be hard to watch, but it's an interesting film about an
organization called Rising Star Outreach ( <http://www.risingstaroutreach.org>
) that is working on helping of the "worst" of India's beggars, those who
afflicted with Hansen's Disease (AKA Leprosy)
<http://byutv.org/watch/d0f942b2-6b4f-4923-9f88-7ad8fde4a01c>

Some interesting tidbits from the video:

\- "70 percent of the world's leprosy is in India."

\- "People with leprosy are treated as untouchables ... Every month, people
from the leprosy colony travel to the city to beg. Once they have enough money
to buy food and clothing for the month, they go back to the colony."

\- "Begging reduces people to their lowest level. The worse you look, the
better you're going to be successful at begging."

But the video has a somewhat happy ending: it is demonstrating a work in
progress, and general proof that giving people a way to sustain themselves
economically via microloans really does work.

As far as the general population goes, India is an amazing country:
resourceful, intelligent. But its biggest challenge will be its ability to
cope with population growth.

~~~
jagira
_> > I "get" the concept of jugaad. My small solution was to not give Rupees
away, but to tip well: anybody who seemed to be working on improving their
economic situation. (Tipping is not normal practice for most Indians, but I
figured it was better than handouts.)_

Absolutely. Be generous to your domestic help, drivers, security guards and
other people who work hard to improve their lives. It will reinforce their
belief in hard work.

~~~
kylebrown
> _But it's absolutely not a sustainable solution to the core and underlying
> problem, and might even be perpetuating it._

It reinforces their reliance on the upper class/caste, a polite form of
beggary. The core and underlying problem is not lack of belief in hard work,
but systematic corruption and exploitation of the poor.

------
jagira
I am an Indian and I find this piece quite authentic. However, the OP and most
of the other foreigners who visit India, visit places or deal with people that
are known to be hostile.

I, as an Indian, will be utterly shocked if I visit a ghetto in downtown
Detroit. Heck, there are more chances of getting mugged or shot in such
ghetto. However, I will not visit such places as they are known to be hostile.

India is a weird place and to survive you need to live as Indians live. Some
insights -

a) Yes, we have highest number of beggars. But most of them are cheats. Most
of them will walk away if you offer them a job instead of money or food. Also,
a lot of them work for beggar mafias.

b) They say that all of those 33 crore Hindu Gods, Buddha and Allah have left
India ages ago. Religions are more customary than spiritual and Indians follow
'em just for the sake of customs. It's a common sight to see a young guy
driving by a temple reciting a few shlokas while driving and offer a customary
mini version of prayer.

People who come to India on a spiritual tour make me laugh. If you think that
you can attain enlightenment or get more spiritual by travelling thousands of
miles and spending a couple of weeks at a 500$/night resort near Haridwar,
then you need some serious help.

c) Tourists buy "Indian" stuff that no Indian buys. The clutches or carpets or
the wooden elephants are made specially for foreign tourists and are
freakingly overpriced. The best way to buy Indian stuff, would be to go to
regular markets with a local friend.

d) Garbage is a big problem. Its in our nature to litter. Take an Indian to US
or Australia and he will not spit or litter. While the same person might even
pee on a street back in India. The only option is to live/stay in relatively
cleaner localities.

e) Drivers, hotel staff, guides, store keepers and public servants are
dishonest because they are virtually unaccountable to anyone and the legal
system ain't efficient enough to nab the dishonest. A "x" star restaurant can
continue to function despite serving cockroaches or hair strands in their
dishes. Apparently, identifying the trait of dishonesty is easier if you know
the local lingo/culture.

People know a lot of about American culture because of Hollywood and American
sitcoms. I am not an expert in American culture, but I can identify whether a
person is playing me. I can not do that in any other country (say Italy).

Same logic applies to foreigners who visit India. You either need to know a
few things about Indian culture beforehand or you need to spend some more time
here.

~~~
crag
"I, as an Indian, will be utterly shocked if I visit a ghetto in downtown
Detroit."

Compared to what the OP described, a "ghetto" in old Detroit would be a
paradise.

Also, just to point out, don't talk trash about a town unless you've been
there. Detroit is finally bringing itself out of the pit. Lots of new energy
running around. It's on the rise. Maybe you should visit?

~~~
jagira
Don't be defensive. I am not picking any particular place. What I am trying to
say is there are places everywhere which violate the perception of a
particular nation. The OP had some wrong perceptions about places like Agra or
Gaya.

And, I am not talking trash.

My sister lives in Troy. When she was new to Detroit, she chose a wrong route
while driving to downtown Detroit. While passing through a certain area (
_don't remember the name, will call her and ask_ ) some gangsters tried to
stop her car and rob her. Luckily she escaped.

My sister didn't crib about it like the OP did. She accepted the reality,
changed her driving directions thereafter and moved on. Like thousands of her
fellow Americans do. Likewise millions of Indians accept the harsh realities,
_change their driving directions_ and move on.

 _> > Compared to what the OP described, a "ghetto" in old Detroit would be a
paradise._

Also, just to point out, don't base your comparisons on a blog post. People,
here, may try to trick you but will not shoot you. Things are improving here
as well. Though, at a slower place.

 _Update: The area where my sister faced gangsters was Highland Park._

~~~
crag
"Also, just to point out, don't base your comparisons on a blog post."

As opposed to what you are basing you opinions on; "My sister lives in Troy.
When she was new to Detroit, she choose a wrong route while driving to
downtown Detroit. While passing through a certain area (don't remember the
name, will call her and ask) some gangsters tried to stop her car and rob her.
Luckily she escaped."

Down vote me all you've want... but unless you actually been to Detroit,
recently, you are taking out of your ass.

From PBS: [http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/the-daily-need/is-
detro...](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/the-daily-need/is-detroit-the-
new-brooklyn/10290/)

I'll quote a part so you don't have to browse it: "Last weekend, the New York
Times featured a story in its Style section about the onslaught of hip, young
urban pioneers streaming into downtown Detroit. These “creatives,” as they are
being called, are taking advantage of low rents and the opportunity to recycle
this abandoned, blank slate of an urban landscape into something new and
exciting. There are restaurateurs and entrepreneurs of all stripes living
alongside environmentalists and urban farmers. ..."

If you want I can post many other links.. but i assume you can do your own
google'ing.

Edited: typos.

~~~
jagira
a) You still don't get it. I am not trying to pick any place. Maybe Detroit
has improved. Good for you, my sister, the USA and this world. But you may
still warn your tourist friend of certain places in _other American cities_ ,
right?

An uninformed tourist will be shocked if he/she visit such places just like
India.

b) I didn't down vote any of your post. Hence, these replies.

~~~
kamaal
In all fairness, what you call the poorest in US would actually qualify to be
pretty rich people here in India.

~~~
jagira
Agreed.

I am talking about expectations and exceptions. In USA an _uninformed_ tourist
won't expect such places. In Somalia, a person won't expect a super friendly
neighborhood with Audis and BMWs roaming around.

------
suprgeek
This is a fairly honest unflinching piece. A visit to India can induce severe
"Cognitive Dissonance" in the unprepared. There is obscene display of super
affluence right next to shocking Poverty. I see this every single day -

A beggar & her naked child begging at the window of an Audi R8.

The salesman in a high-end TV shop taking the bus to work.

The Marriot main-gate where super high priced cars drive out to be greeted by
a forest of beggars.

Mumbai City simultaneously houses the most expensive residence in the world
[1] and the largest slum in the world [2]

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilia_%28building%29> [2]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi>

and so on and so on...

The leaders and the bureaucrats of the Govt. of India deserve to be shot in a
public square for their sheer corruption and incompetence. They rob the
country blind; feather their own nests and manage thru coercion to get elected
(or posted to plum postings) over and over again.

~~~
Arun2009
> The leaders and the bureaucrats of the Govt. of India deserve to be shot in
> a public square for their sheer corruption and incompetence.

The Indian public deserves an equal or greater share of the blame. Government
is the people's responsibility in a democracy. If governance sucks, the
citizens are not doing their job.

~~~
csomar
You are living in a developed country, right? You got many years of language,
writing, speaking, thinking and maybe higher education. You don't know what
illiteracy means (when you can't read/write; and don't understand anything
about democracy or the banking system).

Your average person in a developing and poor country is not Arun2009. It's a
fairly ignorant person who doesn't know either his rights or his duties.

~~~
awakeasleep
Yesterday an article made it to our frontage about what 'bubbles' we live in.
By bubbles the author meant assumptions that shape how we see and interpret
everything.

I think literacy & education is one of the biggest bubbles. I had to spend a
lot of time thinking about it, and talking to people with experience in the
subject before the vast idea of what it means to be illiterate started to dawn
on me.

For example, teaching a class on how to use computers to people at the
library. They all want to know how to 'look for a job' online. Show 'em how to
use the mouse, what icons represent the internet, how to get email, and see
they're having trouble. Slowly begin to understand they're only memorizing
shapes and patterns of letters, and don't really know how to read or write.

We're all so hyper literate, I can say that about everyone here. We're
practically a different species than people who don't know how to wirelessly
communicate through space and time. It's impossible to hold poor people in
india who basically only have spoken word communication, and oral tradition
historical context, to our standards.

------
nullspace
Sorry about the long post. The post by the author stirred up a strong emotion
from me.

The author is right. It's an extremely honest account of the state of chaos
that is India. There has been a culture of dishonesty that has grown over the
last few decades, because that is the only way many people can afford to live
middle-class lifestyles.

If you take an auto-rickshaw or a taxi, the only thing that goes through the
drivers head is, whether he can scam you for more money, and if so how. It's
quite sad, because on one hand dishonesty is the norm, but on the other that's
the only way he can feed his family, send his kids to school, take care of his
ailing parents and drink away his miseries at night. The middle class ignore
this because they know it's all a game with winners and losers (even if by
pure chance). They would be better off trying to achieve a comfortable
standard of living, than to try and reform India. But these people are often
really honest, and as courteous as the average busy employee in nyc.

Then you see the rich folks who live in walled gardens (literally and
figuratively). They have comfortable lives and are protected from the stark
realities by security guards whose sole job is to prevent beggars from
entering places where they live.

The police here do not have resources to work on most of the civil problems
that happen here. On the plus side, they are less corrupt than what they were
before, maybe because of the fear of irrelevancy. The politicians care more
about the gold in their coffers, than to try and find ways to reform society.

The authors' account, it seems, came from a person who expected India to be a
basket of spirituality, but was then struck in the groin by reality. It's all
well and good. That is the real India, unfortunately. Not the Ashrams or the
Taj hotels or the private resorts.

The situation is changing. The spending power of the middle class is
increasing, along with the awareness that they are the ones who can and should
start the change. The population needs to be decreased or the population
densities should be more evenly spread. People living below the poverty line
need to find some way to sustain themselves, and elevate themselves to a
situation where they can think about tackling societal challenges. These are
hard problems, and need capable minds to solve.

------
ankit28595
Reading this article reminds me a story from "The Great Indian Novel" by
Shashi Tharoor that explains the present state of Indians -

"A man, ... a symbol, shall we say, of people of India -- is pursued by a
tiger. He runs fast, but panting heart tells him he cannot run much longer. He
sees a tree. Relief! He accelerates and gets to it in one last despairing
stride. He climbs the tree. The tiger snarls below him, but he feels that he
has at last escaped its snapping jaws. But no -- what's this? The branch on
which he is sitting is weak, and bends dangerously. This is not all; wood-mice
are gnawing away at it; before long they will eat through it and it will snap
and fall. The branch sags down over a wall. Aha! Escape? Perhaps our hero can
swim? But the well is dry, and there are snakes writhing and hissing on its
bed. What is our hero to do? As the branch bends lower, he perceives a
solitary blade of glass growing on the wall of the well.On the top of the
blade of grass gleams a drop of honey. What action does our Puranic man, our
quintessential Indian, take in this situation?

He bends with the branch, and licks up the honey. "

No matter how desperate the situation, Indians will always find a way to
adjust, to live with it. So despite all the filth, over crowding, corruption,
inefficiency, Indians have learnt how to live and enjoy.

~~~
therandomguy
"No matter how desperate the situation, Indians will always find a way to
adjust, to live with it".

Exactly. And this is NOT a good thing. Instead a putting up with all this they
should be fighting back. That would be a good thing.

------
maddalab
Exaggerations abound. While I agree with aspects of poor governance and
garbage accumulation and many other observations, I realized the author was
out to represent a preconceived notion of a nation, when I read, "homeless
people sleeping on the tarmac, the city is so crowded and disgusting that
people decide they’d rather sleep on the airport runway."

I will pick on that lie to state my point. If you have been to any of the
smaller metros in India, you generally get thru immigration at Mumbai before
taking a flight from the domestic terminal. Getting to the domestic terminal
from the international terminal is cumbersome. You are escorted in a bus
operated by the Airport Authority of India, accompanied by security personel.

The aspect of the ride that is of interest is the route taken by the bus. The
bus operated within the premises of the airport often running along side the
tarmac and taxi way thru numerous and repeated security check-points while it
meanders to or from the domestic terminal. This gives you the best view of the
runways at ground level in slow speed often around 15 kmph and includes a
section of the ride around the cargo terminals.

Most international airlines operate to and out of Mumbai during the night
often after 12 AM. I have taken this ride on at least 3 occasions and have not
seen a single individual sleeping on the tarmac on even one occasion.

What the author might be referring to could be the people you find in a semi
sleep state around the terminal, more so near the cargo terminals. These are
employees in the cargo section often on a break. The employees are usually
uniformed and any one can observe the security batches hanging around their
necks.

You would then have to assume that the intent of the author is intentional
mis-representation and sensationalism. Take everything written with a large
serving of salt.

~~~
tmbsundar
I agree. May be he was confused and mistook people sleeping on the side ways
of the bus route.

Another glaring bias in the observation sequence is that all negative
experiences have been told in a detailed, pictorial manner. And all the good
experiences, on Sanjay cooking the meal, another guy refusing 50 Rs and the
taxi driver being tearfully happy at the 50% tip etc., have been cramped into
single liners or a couple of paragraphs, where as all the other negative
experiences are allotted ample real estate in the article.

~~~
vacri
Westerners can easily relate to a home-cooked meal or vendors refusing
overpayment. They don't really relate so well the the stuff about
overpopulation, so given the intended audience, it's not surprising that
there's more detail there.

------
supersan
I don't know how much truth there is in this from the foreigner's point of
view, but a lot of us believe (me and a lot of my friends included) that a
vast majority of tourists who come to India want to witness this very same
upon coming here.

It also fits one of the many reasons why the density of foreigners is maximum
in areas like Pahar Ganj and Old delhi (the dirtiest parts of Delhi IMO). So
when some "gora" (typically white people) complains that Delhi is so dirty the
biggest wtf going on in my head is.. then why the hell are you staying near
Pahar ganj or traveling by a cycle rickshaw in 42 deg near Nai Sadak. The
place near the Airport is cleaner than New York ( at least after the common
wealth games) but nobody wants to see that. Who wants to come here all the way
to see some old glass building in neat and clean surroundings. What's unique
about that right?

~~~
JonnieCache
I think it is valid to judge a society on how it treats its least fortunate.
You are certainly unlikely to learn much about a country from its suburbs and
its CBDs, they are (relatively speaking) alike the world over in my
experience.

~~~
coastside_geek
Well, then why complain about it? When tourists come to US they may go to
Disneyland, the Statue of Liberty etc. Most tourists don't take pictures of
American ghettos, prisons etc.

Why is it that when you guys go to other countries you constantly focus on why
that country is somehow different in a bad way? India: too filthy and chaotic.
China: no freedom. Middle East: too oppressive. I could go on.

I've noticed that Europeans have a more nuanced approach to the world compared
to Americans. They seem to appreciate differences instead of being smug in
their superiority.

~~~
AaronI
I haven't met any fellow USians that _constantly_ do this. Then again, I guess
that's the problem with making wide generalizations about an entire group of
people.

------
sandGorgon
_There was little else to do after nightfall in India but get drunk._ hmm...
OK [http://www.buzzintown.com/delhi/events/category--
nightlife/i...](http://www.buzzintown.com/delhi/events/category--nightlife/id
--1419.html) <http://delhi.burrp.com/events/Film+and+Theatre#3>

_an Indian will lie to your face ... they’ll hand you fake business cards and
offer to sell you something that they don’t actually have, so that you’ll
voluntarily empty your wallet to them on your own accord._ As opposed to
DecorMyEyes.. sure

 _A couple Indians stopped him on the street, and with perfect English
convinced him they worked for a travel agency._ No shit. It's not like any
Indian travel sites are listed on Nasdaq as MMYT right ?

Everyone of the problems has happened to me in various parts of South East
Asia. India is not unique with these issues. With all due respect, I think the
author had a "Gautama" experience. An experience of extreme helplessness when
confronted with extreme poverty at a national scale. I completely empathize
with him, but lets not get too hysterical with helplessness here.

It's hard to herd a billion people along... but we're trying.

~~~
briandear
It's hard to be sympathetic when walking through Paharganj in Delhi and have
hundreds of con artists just outright lying and trying to scam well meaning
tourists. I won't go back to India because of it. It's one thing to pay a guy
to take pictures of you at Taj, it's another to have someone be helpful then
demand a tip for it.

China has a billion people too, but life there is far less horrid, dirty and
bureaucratic. While the Chinese government is pretty deplorable, something is
going right there, compared to India. Another problem with India is the mind-
numbing Colonial-era bureaucracy -- to start a small business in India it
takes months of paperwork just to get a business license. You have to get
papers signed, resigned, rubber stamped by ten different offices and then pay
crazy expensive bribes to everyone along the way. The problem is the
government. It's an obsession with administivia at the expense of
entrepreneurs.

~~~
sandGorgon
The comparison with china is, IMHO, pretty much apples to oranges. You are
comparing industrialized portions of China with India's countryside
(notwithstanding the forced removal of Beijing's slums for the Olympics
[http://olympics.scmp.com/Article.aspx?id=1419&section=in...](http://olympics.scmp.com/Article.aspx?id=1419&section=insight)).
If you need to find fault with the slow pace of reforms, I give you democracy
and cite US Health Reforms as an excuse - imagine if you had one billion
rather than 300 million to work with.

As India's MoS-Small Scale Industries' Sachin Pilot once put it - "inclusive
development vs growth".

Hoping that people will not cheat you at Bangkok's KhaoSan road is a bit too
optimistic. Existence of ThornTree and Tripadvisor with their "Tourist Trap"
sections is indeed because this is a human, not a regional phenomena.

I'm sad that you wont go back to India because of it - I really wish you had
not stayed at Paharganj, but instead stayed somewhere inside Delhi. I wish you
had skipped Taj Mahal altogether and instead taken a walk to Hauz Khas
Village, bang in the middle of New Delhi - which completely epitomises India's
bohemian kitsch, shopping, food, music along with monuments that predate the
Taj Mahal by atleast 300 years. Maybe you could have dropped in to have a cup
of coffee at one of the cafe's there that operate on an honor system rather
than a bill.

Your tourist trap experience, colored the rest of your viewpoints and I'm
truly sad at that.

~~~
briandear
Comparing downtown Delhi with downtown Shanghai is no comparison. I've lived
an traveled in the Chinese countryside and that poverty is not even in the
same ballpark as India.

------
therandomguy
I grew up in one of the biggest cities in India. If I was as good with words,
this is exactly what I would write. Or maybe I wouldn't. The problem in
discussing these issues with most Indians is that they quickly become
defensive. Instead of acknowledging the facts (which is the fist step to
finding a solution), the typical response you would receive is, "even in US
there is poverty/crime/corruption... you are being hypocritical and should
fuck off". I'm sure we will see a lot of it in this thread.

~~~
vacri
Pretty much any nation with a modicum of pride in their populace will have
people getting defensive if a foreigner criticises their nation. I can't think
of many first-world nations where I haven't seen symptoms of this.

~~~
therandomguy
Yup. Ignorance and arrogance masked as pride.

------
natep
I double checked, and according to Wikipedia, he's right. The homicide rate is
3.2/100,000/year for the most recent year with data, compared to 5.0 for US.
Although many countries do have lower rates, India is nowhere near the more
violent South American and African countries, which are the worst.

There's so much more in this article to process, I don't think I'll post a
reaction until I've had time to mull it over (at which point, this post will
be dead, oh well). It did strike me that my cousin has been in India for the
last few weeks, and hasn't mentioned the poverty once in her travel blog. I
think I'll send this to her and see if she has anything to say.

Also, am I the only one that finds it weird that a piece with this level of
nuance is on a site otherwise dedicated to dating advice for straight, cis
men? The kind of advice that divides behaviors into 'needy' and 'not needy'
and claims that your behavior will determine what kind of woman you end up
with?

------
cs702
This brings to mind New York City's horse-manure health crisis in the late
1800's (even though that crisis wasn't directly comparable to this one). Back
then, according to the New York Times, there were up to 200,000 horses living
in the city, each one generating between up to 30 pounds of manure a day, for
a total of up to 6 million pounds of fresh horseshit every day. It just piled
up, attracting huge numbers of flies and posing a serious challenge to the
city's Sanitation Department. The whole city reeked of it.[1]

[1] [http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/when-horses-
pos...](http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/when-horses-posed-a-
public-health-hazard/)

~~~
cstross
It's also worth noting the correlation between the reduction in urban horses
and the reduction in human cases of tuberculosis. TB killed up to 25% of the
urban poor in the late 19th century; infective vectors included infected milk
(from bovine infection reservoirs), poor living conditions that enforced
proximity to TB sufferers, and proximity to TB-infected livestock -- of which
horses would have been the main reservoir in urban areas.

------
srean
It is hard to give a well rounded response to the post and yet keep it short.
So I will not even try. A lot has been written about India, so people who want
to know more will dig deep on their own, whereas many will be happy with
_poverty porn_.

One thing that I do want to mention is that India is a very _high variance_
country. For almost any statement one makes, there will be a un-ignorable part
of the country where the statement is not true. To get a truer picture of
India, always keep that in mind. A part of the variance is not only spatial
but also temporal. Depending on the time you choose to travel, your impression
of Mumbai's city train system can be poles apart.

In the post it was claimed that author felt safe in India. That automatically
gave the author's gender away, especially given the names of the places he
visited. India's capital and most of the north and western states (Gujarat
excluded) are highly unsafe if you are a girl and alone. Even the locals will
not venture out in the evening unaccompanied by the opposite sex. Sexual
violence and molestation is a daily affair. It is even ethnically targeted. If
you are a girl from the north-east, India's capital is not a friendly place.

On the other hand visit Chennai, Mumbai, Pune (by no means an exhaustive list)
nobody will give it a second thought if an unattended girl has to travel in
the wee hours of the night, even if wearing a mini fortune in jewelery.

Every so often in 7 years a north/west/central region of it will erupt in
politically motivated inter-religion violence and riots of the worst kind.
There would be thousands dead, injured, burned and raped (yeah, I am not
making this up), but no one will get punished.

On the other hand states like Kerala, West Bengal havent had such violence
ever since the creation of independent India. But measure them along the axis
of economic growth, the latter will come up in very unflattering colors.

In certain regions of India, you will find bribes to be business as usual. In
the south, (barring Karnataka) that is certainly not the norm. Sometimes the
differences are so great that sometimes when you hear the stories from the
other side you cannot help but wonder, "is it the same country !"

Some cities are poster-children of bad traffic, some are pretty decent
compared to Indian average.

In some cities the form of the garbage disposal is that you throw it on the
street, whereas in others you will have regular system that collects it off
the dumpsters and empties it on the landfills. Furthermore it is not
correlated with the perceived wealth of a city or town. Some of the poorer
ones are cleaner and more organized.

Most of India is male-dominated and patriarchal whereas the north-eastern
states are matriarchal. In many states it is still customary for the girl's
family to pay huge amounts in dowry, and a matter of peer pride for the boy's
family, whereas in many parts, (kerala, west bengal) dowry is frowned upon. It
is not completely absent but when such a transaction does take place, it is
sneaked in different ways and peer pressure works against it.

In the northern and western states girl child foeticide is rampant, not so in
the other states.

Lastly: Corruption is practiced differently in India and US. In US there is
this revolving door between corporations and the govt that legitimizes
corruption, whereas in India it is closer to cash under the table. Not
claiming that one is better or worse than the other, just making an
observation about how it is practiced.

~~~
aggronn
In what way is regulatory capture corruption? What is the alternative? I'm
reluctant to consider it corruption in the same sentence as bribery, despite
that it is an inherent conflict of interest.

~~~
dredmorbius
Regulatory agencies are supposed to, by charter, look to the public interest
in overseeing companies.

If they are captured by the companies they regulate, and serve the companies'
interests rather than the public's, by definition their mission has been
corrupted.

Your question is highly disingenuous.

~~~
aggronn
Your assessment of my question isn't fair. Serving companies interests vs
serving public interests isn't a dichotomy, and very rarely is a regulatory
decision as clean cut as 'this is obviously bad and a net loss for the
society, but we're going to let them set do it anyways'. Believing that to be
the case is far more disingenuous.

Regardless, moving between industry and regulatory bodies isn't necessarily
done in a corrupt manner. If you're the president of a state energy board, you
don't need to break any rules to get a higher paying job in industry. you're
already, perhaps necessarily, more qualified than almost any other candidates.
This is not inherently corrupt, this is what OP was referring to (or, this is
a common meme which is associated with what he described).

~~~
dredmorbius
No, it's accurate.

What part of "when a state regulatory agency, created to act in the public
interest, instead advances the commercial or special interests that dominate
the industry or sector it is charged with regulating" don't you understand?

 _That_ is the definition of "regulatory capture".

Note that regulatory capture is _not_ "balancing the public interest with
commercial realities" or similar such wording.

If you're perhaps debating some _other_ term, please provide us with an
accepted term and definition of same, rather than creating a Lewis Carrol
"glory" (see: <http://sabian.org/looking_glass6.php>) and passing off as
accepted wisdom.

On my planet, the _appearance_ of impropriety is considered largely as bad as
actual impropriety. Taking an example from a US government website:
[http://ig.navy.mil/Complaints/Complaints%20%20(Appearance%20...](http://ig.navy.mil/Complaints/Complaints%20%20\(Appearance%20of%20Impropriety\).htm)

If the revolving door _consistently_ operates between regulatory agencies and
the organizations those agencies regulate, then yes, I'd say that this
comprises systemic corruption.

~~~
aggronn
It might suffice to say that 'regulatory capture' is used more broadly in
economic literature than what the wikipedia article you're referencing leads
on. Maybe not. We disagree fundamentally on the 'appearance of impropriety'
comment here. I don't consider the reason for changing jobs to be so cut and
dry. I don't see this moving onto a productive discussion.

~~~
dredmorbius
If you're finding an alternate definition, cite your reference.

------
nsns
I have spent years in India, and it's one of my favorite places on Earth. One
thing I quickly discovered is how much Western visitors like to (ab)use their
experiences to misconstrue a sense of superiority. Such a sense would
immediately disappear, IMO, should they make an effort to overcome their own
ignorance of the place.

The piece reads almost like a self-conscious parody of this usual Western
tirade against India.

------
spiredigital
I spent three weeks in India last year teaching in a slum school, and this is
the most candid and accurate description of the country I've read yet. Well
done. I think some people are afraid to really be honest at the risk of being
politically incorrect, and I appreciate the author's honesty.

I had the same reaction the OP did when I saw so many living side-by-side with
the impoverished - especially children - and being so callused. But the
reality is that poverty is everywhere in India, and because it's a way of
live, people simply adjust.

But it doesn't make it any less sad. It's sad to see full-grown, gaunt men
struggling to pedal their rickshaw in flip-flops over washboard roads for
pennies. But it's devastating seeing small children who are really, truly
famished.

We would buy food for hungry children whenever we could, and often they would
stare at us blankly at first. They'd accept the food, but would have no
reaction. I figured they simply didn't appreciate it or couldn't muster a
reaction.

But then I started watching them after we left. And after they realized they
weren't being had - and we really were giving them food with no strings
attached - they were transformed. I looked back at one begging child to see
him absolutely gleeful, grinning from ear to ear. Another child who I gave
some candy and bit of money ran after our departing rickshaw - while holding
his 1 year old sister - waving, smiling and dancing with joy. It almost most
made me cry.

But I didn't cry, not until the night before we left. After three weeks in
India, I was ready to to leave. But at the same time, I felt almost guilty
that I was able to return to such a country of prosperity and wealth while the
children I'd taught would simply stay behind. And while my wife and I had
worked our ass off for 2 weeks to improve the school, the curriculum and the
educational prospects for the kids, ultimately our effort wasn't going to move
the needle, and few if any would ever leave the slums. They had almost no shot
at making a life for themselves. With all these emotions stirring in my mind,
my wife held me as I cried.

If you're living in the U.S. or any Western country, you are incredibly
blessed / lucky. Don't take it for granted. If you haven't been to India, it's
a trip that will forever change your perspective. Before leaving for India, I
simply lived in a home. But I returned with the knowledge that I live in a
luxurious castle.

------
frasertimo
Hey guys, I work for Postmasculine and just wanted to jump in quickly. First,
thanks for sharing this Arun2009. I've been reading HN daily for the last 9
months and love it. Amazing to open up my computer today and see us as the
number one link. I believe my reaction was something like this:
[http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/05/excit...](http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/05/excited5.gif)

Anyway, I mainly wanted to ask what people thought of the site apart from that
article. Did you read anything else and did you like it or dislike it? If so,
what articles did you read?

Thanks!

~~~
modarts
Pretty good site, and the content is refreshingly devoid of the PUA type
garbage you'll read on askmen

~~~
frasertimo
Thanks. One of our unofficial goals is to not be an Askmen ripoff with better
writing. I enjoy reading Askmen articles once in a while, especially when I
need something very specific and practical like how to tie a bow tie, or when
I want to waste some time on a 'top 10 hottest chicks in surrealist Angolian
horror films' list or something equally mindless. But we're aiming to go a
little deeper than that :)

Any more feedback, negative or positive is much appreciated.

------
vardhanw
Discussion on r/india
[http://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/nmnzf/how_accurately_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/nmnzf/how_accurately_does_this_blog_post_describe_india/)

------
ravivyas
I have not read the article yet but I am saddened by the fact that the
discussion , yet again,has become a US vs Them discussion. Getting mugged in
Detroit does not justify any behavior here in India. Just because the US has
poor people does not mean we can too.

The problem with Indians is we will say "I am proud to be a Indian" one moment
and litter the next. We believe we are perfect thus do not work to achieve
more. Yes as Individuals we would have done a lot for the country but we as a
people need to be more patriotic and literally uplift the nation.

------
bhntr3
This is a very accurate portrayal of the hard parts of traveling as a
backpacker in India. I'm not sure it's a totally accurate portrayal of India
itself. I spent six months backpacking around India. A lot of what he said in
the article resonated with me, especially eventually losing it about a few
dollars with a taxi driver, hands shaking with anger over $4.

The thing the author doesn't mention is that being a traveler affects what you
see and who you meet. There are places you go as a backpacker: Agra,
Rajasthan, Bodhgaya, Goa, Bangalore and so on. And there are people there
looking for you, expecting you, or at least someone like you. If you only
speak to people who approach you, then you will meet a lot of dishonest
people. Things tend to look pretty rough from the banana pancake store.

This is true in any poor country that gets a lot of wealthy tourists. Most of
what he said was true in East Africa too. It's really true of anywhere you can
get that damn banana pancake.

So, I don't disagree. It was spot on. But it's also possible that the 100%
accurate description of what a backpacker sees in India is not an accurate
description of India itself.

Also, I'm not advocating "getting off the beaten path" or trying to critique
the "authenticity" of his "Indian experience". I hate that shit. But there is
a bit of an Uncertainty Principle to backpacking. In my experience, you can't
both travel a country cheaply and observe it objectively at the same time.

------
_debug_
As an Indian, I'd like to put in a word about spirituality and "seeking" :
getting trapped by the spiritual tourism hawkers is the worst way to go about
it. Please do not just land up and ask, "So where is the latest and greatest
ashram?". You'll probably get scammed, or worse, physically or mentally
abused. Do not underestimate the charisma and level of brainwashing techniques
that fake gurus are capable of. Even level-headed people can be made to "give
up this wretched materiality" (i.e., write away their property to the ashram)
after a few sessions of strange chemicals in your food, and some effective
brainwashing / hypnotic sessions.

Before coming to India, please have an exact idea of the particular person /
people (guru, gurus, enlightened people, etc;) you are going to meet, what you
seek from them, etc; Please spend time researching the person you want to meet
on the Internet, YouTube, etc; Please try to have Indian friends, or just
register with someone who will check up on you regularly (ideally a local, or
at least by phone) who can help as an emergency contact in case of any
disaster (malaria, hypnotised by the scammer-guru, etc;).

It is a sad fact that this country has some gems of philosophers, but is
equally filled with scammers and worse.

Lastly, a personal opinion : just read Jiddu Krishnamurthi and think for
yourself, you don't need a harrowing India trip! :-)

~~~
aangjie
I would also recommend a quick read of [http://www.amazon.com/Karma-Cola-
Marketing-Mystic-East/dp/06...](http://www.amazon.com/Karma-Cola-Marketing-
Mystic-
East/dp/0679754334/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341848365&sr=8-1&keywords=karma+cola).
It'll give you a perhaps old, but still relevant list of signs to watch out
for.

------
jessedhillon
Why is this being upvoted and still on the front page? In addition to being
totally irrelevant to the site guidelines: the guy goes to India, visits all
the tourist hotspots, and eats at Pizza Hut. While traveling. In India.

Without accepting or denying any of the observations he makes, and at the risk
of sounding like I "lack perspective," I humbly offer that if you travel
halfway around the world and still eat at an American chain restaurant, your
judgment of foreign culture is irrelevant.

~~~
JabavuAdams
> I humbly offer that if you travel halfway around the world and still eat at
> an American chain restaurant, your judgment of foreign culture is
> irrelevant.

Nonsense. For all we know, he ate there once. Homesickness is a common
experience for travellers in a very different culture.

~~~
jessedhillon
The idea that Mr. Manson's heart is brought back home by a visit to Pizza Hut
is even more damning to his credibility! But seriously, he sounds like another
lazy, judgmental tourist.

~~~
JabavuAdams
What would convince you that this is not true?

I remember going to McDonalds when I was traveling in Spain and feeling
homesick and annoyed that everyone was on siesta. I guess I'm just a bad
tourist?

~~~
jessedhillon
Tourism != traveling

Tourists should keep their judgments to themselves. Traveling is about
immersing yourself in the local culture, tourism is about observing it from a
safe distance -- _i.e._ touring.

Making deep conclusions about the people of another culture while traveling
around in hotels, eating at Pizza Hut (okay, just once!) and hopping around
between tourist attractions and ashrams designed specifically to attract white
people is like me trying to figure out if you would beat your wife, just by
looking at your face. There is no correlation.

------
grandalf
Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying
capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is
used to.

Thus, for this reason alone, India is likely to have a different ratio of
people to development, since less development is required to sustain one
person's resource utilization.

Contrast this to the US where much of the country is snow covered for 1/3 of
the year and without planning and infrastructure to enable it, there would be
very little food available during the winter. In the US the infrastructure is
a requirement for even moderate population growth.

The same applies to shelter. In India, a hut made of newspaper is adequate
shelter year round. Try that in the Northern US and you'll freeze.

The result of this is that there are more poor people who do not rely as much
on large scale planning and infrastructure for their basic survival.

Yes India's government is corrupt, but not all that much more corrupt than the
US government.

If you want to talk about rights for the poor, in India if someone isn't using
land and you set up a tent on it and start living there, you can't be evicted.
The shantytowns that the author found so disturbing are actually a side-effect
of India's weak property rights laws, which themselves are a result of
democratic pressure from the poor to continue living where their families have
lived for generations. Contrast this to the genocide the US conducted against
native Americans who were in the way.

Basic infrastructure (roads, sewers) is lacking in India, but those are not
easy projects to bootstrap. Bangalore has a massive sewer construction project
going on now.

Frankly, it's not all that bad. Sure the garbage smells bad, but it's mostly
just a matter of learning not to keep inhaling after you catch a whiff of
something rank on the breeze.

If you are concerned about India's political infrastructure, notice that
India's rulers are forming alliances with the US to help thwart Pakistan's
nuclear ambitions. Note that once the US has a stake in one ruling party it
tends to do much to prop up and empower that party, even if there are horrible
human rights consequences.

When I go to India I notice the energy. People sit happily beneath a dirty
tarp in a roadside food stand, enjoying Manchurian Gobi... sometimes 4 or 5
people sharing one bowl of the delicious spicy food. Smiles everywhere. These
are extremely poor people. Also I notice the tiny businesses, some retail
locations are only a few square feet in size but sell a variety of goods and
are staffed by a single motivated shopkeeper who works 18+ hour days.

India is full of hard working people and ingenuity. I found the author's
generalizations about dishonesty, etc., quite offensive.

Consider how much effort is undertaken in the US to hide poverty from view.
Sadly the US ends up putting a very large percentage of its poor population in
prisons and has relocated many to horrific housing projects, where the
violence and horrors are contained away from view.

Consider how much effort is undertaken in the US to present the appearance of
legit, non-corrupt institutions. Yet fraud abounds at all levels of
government. The stuff Wikileaks exposed about the US is nothing more than
fraud, dishonesty, and corruption.

~~~
pdeuchler
"Yes India's government is corrupt, but not all that much more corrupt than
the US government."

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India>

[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/18/world/asia/18iht-
letter18....](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/18/world/asia/18iht-
letter18.html)

[http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2091100,00.htm...](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2091100,00.html)

People are holding hunger strikes to stand up against the corruption. When was
the last time that happened in the US?

You are rationalizing away all of the author's points, and just because there
is an explanation for things doesn't make those things okay. Just because "In
India, a hut made of newspaper is adequate shelter year round." Doesn't mean
it's alright for people to live in a shelter of NEWSPAPER.

"Frankly, it's not all that bad. Sure the garbage smells bad, but it's mostly
just a matter of learning not to keep inhaling after you catch a whiff of
something rank on the breeze."

I'm sure that will fix all of the disease and sickness that comes with
festering garbage lingering about in public streets.

"Sadly the US ends up putting a very large percentage of its poor population
in prisons and has relocated many to horrific housing projects, where the
violence and horrors are contained away from view."

Even if this is true (which I'd argue that it's not, but that is neither here
nor there) how does that justify having the poor out in the open begging for a
living?

"If you want to talk about rights for the poor, in India if someone isn't
using land and you set up a tent on it and start living there, you can't be
evicted. The shantytowns that the author found so disturbing are actually a
side-effect of India's weak property rights laws, which themselves are a
result of democratic pressure from the poor to continue living where their
families have lived for generations. Contrast this to the genocide the US
conducted against native Americans who were in the way."

Besides the blatant non-sequitor about genocide (It happened, yes, but what
does that have to do with India?), giving someone the right to squat on land
is hardly "rights for the poor". Congrats on not evicting people from shanty
towns, excuse me if you aren't awarded the next Nobel Peace Prize.

~~~
PakG1
I agreed with most of your post except for this point:

 _Doesn't mean it's alright for people to live in a shelter of NEWSPAPER._

Why isn't it alright? Honestly, if it's adequate shelter, why isn't it
alright? I'm trying to think of some reasons, and I figure it has to do with
inability to withstand rain and wind, effects of rot and mold, lack of
security, or who knows what. But then I keep going back to the word
"adequate". What does this mean? Does adequate mean these problems actually
don't exist, and therefore it's adequate? Or is there a different level of
what is considered adequate in the gp, compared to what I think is adequate?

You can't just come out and say that it's not alright for people to live in a
shelter of newspaper just because it's newspaper. You need to have reasons for
it. And if it _is indeed_ adequate, I can't think of any reasons why I would
dislike living in a shelter of newspapers. In the same manner, I cannot think
of any reasons why I would dislike caves in western China, huts in the Amazon,
or igloos in the Yukon. If it's a matter of getting proper Internet, well,
let's just assume that if I'm living there, I must have chosen to forgo some
luxuries. For example, many missionaries throughout history easily decided to
go native and live like the people they were trying to reach.

I need to understand the details behind your point.

~~~
ttrt
You're assuming too much. It's not adequate shelter. You'd get sick living in
a shack in an indian slum or in a hut in the amazon without modern medicine
plus expensive and time consuming precautions--precautions a slum dweller
can't take. Read up on public health in slums, particularly slums in the
tropics.

"many missionaries throughout history easily decided to go native"

Err, no. Missionaries (as well as soldiers and merchants) used to have crazy
high mortality in the tropics.

~~~
PakG1
I'm not assuming anything. I'm questioning what is the definition of adequate
here, because whatever is the definition will determine whether or not I agree
with the original statement.

Whether or not those housing conditions lend themselves to proper sanitation
or not, missionaries decided to go native in spite of the high mortality, also
knowing the mortality rate of their peers (until modern medicine came about to
make things like malaria a much smaller concern). I don't see your point.
Missionaries had a crazy high mortality in the tropics? So what? It didn't
stop their decisions to go native. And they certainly didn't have a crazy high
mortality rate after the arrival of modern medicine. What are you saying no
to?

------
VMG
Cached:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MOYIexE...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MOYIexE5qhAJ:postmasculine.com/a-dust-
over-india+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk)

------
mattront
When making judgements like this, it is good to remember that your experience
of a place depends not only on that place, but even more so on your own state
of mind. When you see confusion all around you, you should honestly ask
yourself how much of it is coming from your side.

~~~
Arun2009
> you should honestly ask yourself how much of it is coming from your side.

That may be true. But I still think that candid, unapologetic appraisals of
what's wrong with developing countries may be just what the doctor ordered for
things to change.

I myself am an Indian and while I'm yet to see someone covered in his or her
own feces in India, I'd agree with the general sentiment of that article: it's
an honest, heart-felt piece. I'd like to change the state of affairs in my
country, but the task is so f*cking huge that you don't know where to start or
even whether you can do anything at all. If perhaps more Indians start feeling
that things are NOT acceptable here, maybe we might see the beginnings of
change, just like how it was with India's own independence struggle.

~~~
vr000m
India probably needs more startups; startups that are solving Indian problems,
employing Indians and if relevant expanding the solution to places outside.

Despite the corruption and incompetence of the government, I believe that the
government also finds itself in the same conundrum--"where to start, or what
to fix first, or in what order".

~~~
btilly
And inevitably decides to fix the fact that those in power do not feel
themselves to be rich enough.

------
braindead_in
I once took my client who was visiting from US to a city tour of New Delhi. It
was routine India Gate, Red Fort, Jantar Mantar stuff. She seemed unimpressed.
But we happened to pass through a slum area and her eyes just lit up. She was
shocked and amazed, but happy that her trip was now complete. It was
disgusting.

~~~
prawn
We marvel in that which is different?

(Had never heard of Jantar Mantar before - only been to a few southern parts
of India - thanks. Will put it on my To Do list!)

------
mayanksinghal
As an Indian who has lived in North India for the entire 23 years of his
existence, I can say that every single word that the author has reported is
true, except one. It is not safe to roam about in wee hours not even for men.
Except may be in Mumbai and a few more cities. I would advice any other visits
against it.

Oh and people who have praised the word 'jugaad', in most cases it is a
illegal-immoral solution. I hate it when people glorify the act. It is a
reality and it is present everywhere in India - but I hope that we grow out of
it.

You can divide the country into three parts: (A) The Powerful (who are always
rich) (B) The not-so-rich and not-so-powerful (C) The poor and powerless.
People of class (A) are leaders, businessmen and politicians who are also
lawmakers. Class (B) is the middle to high income families who think political
dialogue is a stinking business to be a part of. Class (C) is the overwhelming
majority who vote and get paid for it - either directly or through improper
political practices from caste/region/religion based arguments.

We have a huge population with few resources. We don't have enough fuel to
dump our waste, not even enough ground to dump them on. We have very high
unemployment and low literacy. Even the education system that we have is
largely of very low quality. Cross Border Terrorism that is so not a daily
part of western life is now too boring to be covered on Indian television.
North India is so accustomed to it that people have even stopped demanding
action - we don't think our government can take any. We also face Naxalism
[1], a reality that a lot of us don't understand as it is largely based in
Southern/Eastern India.

We regularly see large scale corruption ($1B+), as frequently as once every
year. The culprits come back to power in a few years (An example: [2]). And
people vote for them, because there is no better choice. This is unlike say
USA when similar things would have been ends of political career for people
involved.

BUT, please stop commenting on India as a comparison to the US and the rest of
the western world. We get it, you have cleaner cities, healthier people,
lesser discrimination and no unhappiness. We know it well, we live by it every
day. These commentaries just seem unnecessary. We are innately handicapped in
the race of development. We have started off late [3]. We have started off
behind [4]. It is also very arrogant to impose your morality to the ancestors
of others [5] as even if they may agree to what you say, they cannot comment
on the situation in the previous era as they are unaware of the context
themselves. It is very rude to use it as an argument against the present.

And let's make it clear. India is no more spiritual than any other country on
earth. We just have a lot more temples and monasteries than most places. And
they are also old and diverse. These exact things that attracts most
westerners to India - the ancientness and the abundance, are also very closely
related to what westerners hate about India. You cannot have orthodox,
untainted and non-commercialized establishments without the perils of
unorganized, corrupt and ill-managed institutes. Remove both, and you have a
country that is working just as vigorously towards modern (and very western)
ideologies and standards of living.

    
    
      [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxalite
      [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fodder_Scam
      [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Independence
      [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj#Economic_impact
      [5] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4214998 [Sec: Sati]

------
jeisenberg
As they say: "travel to a place for a day, write a novel. Travel there for a
month, write an essay. Travel there for a year, write nothing."

This post, while certainly an honest account, is rife with generalizations and
does not acknowledge the author's own cultural biases in the slightest.

~~~
vacri
What nonsense - he's constantly referring to his own cultural biases,
including finishing on exactly that.

~~~
jeisenberg
Can you please point out to me where, exactly, he finishes on an
acknowledgement of his own biases? His analysis is based on a 3-week excursion
around various parts of the country, with little to no effort to understand
any historical context for what he critiques.

How about even a cursory talk about the historical context? Colonialism, the
politics of development, the political economy of tourism, anything for that
matter.

Mark talks about how emotionally overwhelming travel is, he doesn't talk about
how, if he had stayed there longer or even done some basic wikipedia research,
perhaps he wouldn't jump to so many base conclusions. Instead, we are left
with a poetic bog post laced with comments like this one:

"Indian culture itself is quite disorienting."

Or this little gem:

"There’s no single sentence for India. The place is a fucking mess."

This doesn't even make sense. How can there be no single sentence for India,
and then GIVE A SINGLE SENTENCE FOR INDIA?

Yeah, it's a fucking mess for a well-off Internet blogger. It's a fucking mess
because Mother Theresa can't save the Indians from themselves, "And it’s just
as well, Mother Teresa couldn’t save this society from itself." Critical
development studies has been fighting this kind of arrogance for a long time.

And to be fair, I respect this author's work a lot more than most lifestyle
blogs. I just have a low tolerance for generalizations like this one.

Does that sound like nonsense to you?

~~~
vacri
The reference to shutting out the congitive dissonance with his sunglasses and
ipod is a tacit statement recognising that he is not of this place. If you
don't see that in his writing, there's a lot in that essay you will have
missed. A much clearer example of reporting on his own biases is when he
reports on the email from his mother.

 _How can there be no single sentence for India, and then GIVE A SINGLE
SENTENCE FOR INDIA?_

Oh, for fuck's sake. You're choosing to be offended. He didn't give a single
sentence, he wrote a four thousand word essay on it. An essay in which he
covers a lot of variations in the parts of the culture he saw.

Really, you're choosing to be offended. Why should he report on the
colonialism of India in an essay about his personal experiences; why is the
essay bereft of value because of that? And despite your claims that he doesn't
talk about the political economy of tourism, he does do that in the essay. He
talks of the spiritual tourism, and his experiences and opinions of it.

 _Yeah, it's a fucking mess for a well-off Internet blogger._

And traveller to 40 countries, so a fair bit more experienced in other
cultures than most. You're committing exactly the same sins of omission as
you're accusing him of making, in order to reframe your argument so that it
benefits you.

~~~
jeisenberg
Fair enough. This was a comment to a short essay. I'll continue to hold my
beliefs, and you'll continue to have yours, as these forums typically work.

------
geekin
Let me summarize the problems of India in my very limited capacity. 1\. India
is a very very old civilization. Hence, there are way too many ideologies,
religions, castes etc in the way of a focused progressive thinking. 2\. India
ceased to be offensive long back - history is very clear about what usually
happens with a non-offensive civilization - they get captured, robbed,
systematically destroyed. It took 600 years to rob India from Moghuls to the
British. In this very long process of invasions and slavery, something very
critical to human survival broke down completely. We Indians do not care of
our own well-being. We are happy with getting away with minimal suffering. We
just do not care. 3\. As India spent most of the modern time in slavery, India
became fatalist - none of our actions are relevant - finally the destiny/wish
of God/karma takes over. So, we do not care about our actions. There is no
causality. 4\. Post independence from the British, India fell into the hands
of a very corrupt political system. Please understand this, to survive in
power the Governments in India need poor people. How can you govern and
control 1.2 billion people? - by keeping them in abject poverty. This is a
very simple mechanism (read Orwell's 1984) proven and tested the world over.
5\. India has a class of enterpreneurial people. They make money for
themselves and help their own. India has no sense of public distribution of
wealth or enterpreneurship. An Indian will NOT help a man living in his own
street if the other guy is from a different caste/religion/etc. 6\. Poverty is
the worst form of violence - but India has no plans to eradicate poverty.
Politics is usually the tool for the rougue to make quick money and loads of
it and as I mentioned earlier, poverty is necessary for the political class to
survive. I have 100 other points - perhaps I will write a blog about it and
share with you people. This article talks about something that hurts me a lot
on personal level - trust me, every Indian has tried atleast once to change
things around him. Most have failed. Even Gandhi failed miserably - he never
got the India he dreamed of.

------
nazgulnarsil
This is why I have trouble relating to my friends' problems.

Oh someone at work got a bigger raise than you? Excuse me while I laugh in
your face.

I'm not too good at parties. I don't know how to compartmentalize.

It also bugs me that talking about this seems like a status move when it
generates negative things in my life.

~~~
guard-of-terra
A human is made for happiness the same way a bird is made for flight. If
people don't feel happy because they are underappreciated or their social life
is lacking, I don't think that should be mocked.

------
neel8986
I am from India..Things that have been described is absolutely true.

But do you know one thing. The actual situation is worse. The beggars author
is talking about actually represts only indian middle class!!.. yes they fall
in the top 50% in economic ladder. If you want to see real poverty go to
kalahandi or vidharba region

Do you know in last 10 years 200,000 farmers committed suicide just out of
poverty. Just imagine 200,000 people (larger than the population of many
European capital) committing suicide just out of hunger..That too is the
official number. Some suspect it is around 500,000..It is a human genocide of
worst form..So many people committing suicide just due to poverty

And you know what..Giving those 25,000 is not going to help. Charity by Mother
Teresa or Diana or Bill gates is not going to solve this poverty of
continental level..They may satisfy your ego..Maybe you can win a nobel prize
but it is not going to solve any problem.

If you really want to help those guys just do one thing..Support outsourcing
from your heart..support any policy that helps transferring millions of jobs
from west to India..In this world only one country is solving poverty of
indian scale and that is china and you know how they are solving it..So next
time you hear that a company is transferring its entire manufacturing jobs to
China or india just support that..it is at least going to save thousands of
poor people from this abject poverty

------
northernswagger
I spent 3 weeks in India in February and have a totally different viewpoint.
Amazing people, true hope at the prosperous future and an incredible will.

All about seeing the glass half empty or half full

------
badclient
This is an uber linkbait article from a pickup instructor turned internet
marketer. Nicely executed.

~~~
frasertimo
Employee of the site here. Just want to point out a few things.

1\. The submitter of the article to HN has no affiliation with Postmasculine
as far as I know, nor did we request them to post it here. We're very grateful
for them doing so however!

2\. While the author of the site was involved in the pickup industry for a
while, he chose to no longer identify with that scene over two years ago, and
specifically moved his content away from its perspective, even going so far as
to systemically deconstruct the flaws and failures of Pickup theory and the
community it created. So we don't feel that 'pickup' really represents what
the site has to say about dating. Although we definitely do talk about meeting
women. A lot. :)

3\. While we're dedicated internet marketing students, we're far from experts
on the subject. We're putting a lot of time and effort into improving the
site's marketing, but our number one focus will always be on providing high
quality content that is as no BS and realistic as possible. Hopefully anyone
who came from HN and spends further time reading the site will agree.

I realize your comment wasn't a criticism, but just thought I'd try and give a
bit more context to the situation. Thanks for assuming we were so
professional!

~~~
badclient
Fair points, mostly.

I would say that it is a new trend for pick-up instructors to distance
themselves from the pick-up industry mostly for marketing purposes. I think
it's mostly semantics and at the end of the day, you're just fearing the
phrase "pickup industries" focuses too much on the negative and not enough
about the positives.

On the otherhand, as someone who's spent fair bit of time observing pickup
companies, I will say that your marketing page seems very reasonable and not
full of false promises common on most PU sites.

~~~
frasertimo
Definitely agree that it was and still is a trend. I won't claim we were the
first to distance ourselves, but I think we were the best!

Our POV on what defines 'pickup' advice versus regular dating advice is that
'pickup' is the decision to objectify your sex life in order to improve it. We
don't believe that this is a healthy or effective mindset, hence we don't
define our material as 'pickup'.

Honestly, I think if you read some more of the site, for example
<http://postmasculine.com/why-its-so-hard> or especially
<http://postmasculine.com/pickup-artist> (warning: long) you'd come to the
conclusion that we're a far shot from what most people associate pickup with.
But it's up to you whether you want to spend the time :)

------
tlogan
Yes - the most horrendous thing about India is take-your-breath-away poverty.
Kid are dying of hunger poverty.

That is the only thing which I really really don't like about India. It just
seems wrong - very very wrong. Especially because it seems like there is
enough money around to help these people.

All other things are ok and you can see in other countries - traffic is
terrible, corruption, trash, ethnic violence, etc.

------
jimgardener
As someone who lived in south India for about 40 years, I can tell you that
spiritual tourism is a good source of money.There are too many godmen and
godwomen (some of them hugs people and some more sophisticated ones speak in
the U.N... You will not find true Gurus here.True Gurus don't sell their wares
in shops).

What you mentioned about dirty garbage strewn over the streets is true in most
Indian cities and towns.If you wake up early enough,you will find women
sweeping the area around their houses.They will not give a second thought
before dumping that swill on the street.The same people will complain loudly
about the local authourities not doing enough to reduce the garbage problem.
Travel to Kochi by road.It is one of the fast developing cities in
Kerala.Coming from Trissur side,the first thing you will notice is the huge
dumps(about 3-4 mtrs high) of garbage on both sides. The people living in that
area are definite candidates for cancer.I wouldn't wonder if another Plague
epidemic happens in the near future.

------
rehack
Its the attitude. And its not because of 'jugaad' as quite a few other
comments make here. Its because of another attitude called 'chalta hai'
attitude. Which simply means 'even _this_ is Okay'.

The reason for this attitude, I think, is because of being one of the oldest
civilizations. Which is a fact, and often it used as a ego-massage and as a
strong point in several discussions.

The point to note is that _this building_ was built thousands of years ago,
and is in a natural state of decay.

On the other hand, a country like US being a country of migrants was forced to
start everything on a relatively clean state. So sort of a natural call to
action - to build their lives.

If one takes anecdotal examples of families one may know of, one will see that
the best ones in the families move on to a different place. The laggards are
left behind.

One idea, comes to me as I write this, is what if we just ask people from two
nearby villages, to just move their huts and belongings to the other village,
and vice versa. Will it bring about any change in the attitude?

------
gshakir
This article is too close to home. I am in Chennai now (South India) and I see
the sights mentioned in the article every day. Heck!, I got people sleeping on
the streets right outside my parent's house doorstep. In the last 10 years or
so, with new airports, 4 lane highways, new shopping malls and numerous kinds
of cars, all these has made ZERO impact on poverty!.

------
sateesh
The problem he outlines about India are real and are serious ones. But the
article is a shallow one and the author makes grand sweeps of imagination to
make some crass generalizations.

Consider a few of these:

 _Indian culture itself is quite disorienting. The people can be incredibly
warm and hospitable, or cold and rude depending on the context and how they
know you. The conclusion I eventually came to is that if they already know
you, or if they’re somehow benefiting from you, then they can be incredibly
warm and open people. But if they don’t know you, or if they’re trying to get
something out of you, then they are a prickly, conniving bunch._

Is this a specific Indian behavior ? You can find sycophants in any part of
the world. It is not that Indian culture is wired to sycophancy.

 _But what Sanjay told me about Indian people is bizarre but true. He said
Indians will rarely, if ever, resort to violence. As a foreigner, you never
have to worry about being robbed, or having a knife pulled on you, or getting
beaten up by a gang of thugs and having your kidney carved out of you. And
this is true._

Except that it isn't. Cases of foreign tourists being robbed,threatened at
knife point, mugged aren't rare. As a tourist one has to exercise caution in
India as much one would do in any other country as a tourist.

 _BUT, Sanjay said, an Indian will lie to your face. He’ll say anything to get
what he wants from you. And most of them don’t see it as immoral or wrong. So
on the one hand, they won’t stick a gun in your face to take your wallet. But
they’ll hand you fake business cards and offer to sell you something that they
don’t actually have, so that you’ll voluntarily empty your wallet to them on
your own accord._

Won't any conman from any part of the world operate the same way ? The author
is stereotyping just because his Indian friend told it to be so.

~~~
therandomguy
"Is this a specific Indian behavior ? You can find sycophants in any part of
the world. It is not that Indian culture is wired to sycophancy."

The problem is when majority of the population demonstrates this behavior. And
with personal experience, I found this to be very true as well. I'm not saying
this is scientific observation, just my personal, which matches with the
author's.

~~~
jhatax
I agree with a number of points made in the article and the general comments
about corruption in India. I disagree with the assertion that Indians are out
to thug you for your money, and that is not the case with businessmen in
America.

Having recently bought a new car, I know full well how so-called, honest,
American car dealers operate. Additionally, I am familiar with the "fair" and
"transparent" lending practices of the bankers. How can you discount the eBay
hood-winking, the mortgage crisis, medicare/Medicaid scams, identity theft,
browser-cookie based tracking, etc. that all originated in the very United
States of America that you consider so virtuous? Is profit not the motivation
behind all of these immoral activities?

Please, get off your holier than thou perch and see the world for what it is:
Everyone that owns a business is out to make a profit. Even the small business
man inside of you that is looking for the best deal regardless of the impact
it has on the business you are under-cutting. Once you see this reality, you
will also realize that there has always been, and will always be, a tug of war
between a consumer and a producer/supplier/business-owner. Except of course if
you are dealing with a not-for-profit.

~~~
akandiah
"Having recently bought a new car, I know full well how so-called, honest,
American car dealers operate."

You'll find that this is the case in most parts of the world. Please enlighten
me if you find an honest one.

------
boltenderus
being an indian and learning a lot about world, history and origins of modern
society from the great gift of internet and spending entire 21 years of my
life in a chaos like new delhi. i conform this article carry a lot of truth.
after advent of capitalism india is just a place for corrupt and greedy
entreprenuers , politicians and government employees who will go to any extent
to be evil and take it all for themselves leaving rest of all the population
to suffer. poor people not having anything to do fuck each other all day
making such a rise in population and middle class or lower middle class people
just prepare there whole lives to be slaves of some company or organisation.
single truth that i discovered being a middle class indian is that india needs
a sexual revolution and more freedom for women. because you cannot get a
productive and creative society when most of the people who run it doesn't get
a good fuck all there lives!

------
akandiah
The problem that India faces are summed up quite nicely in towards the end:

 _Obviously, I’m no Mother Teresa. And it’s just as well, Mother Teresa
couldn’t save this society from itself. Sometimes human systems become so
large that they hurt people, not by design, but by inertia. And it’s beyond
any of our ability to grasp, let alone control._

------
coastside_geek
Interesting responses.

I urge fellow Indians to check out theuglyindian.com. A bunch of guys (some
are friends of friends) have got together to make an impact. These little
grass roots efforts are working.

Lets participate and clean things up.

------
lalitm
Looks like a lots of people from West (US and Europe) and many Indian's who
were once in West have lots of Issues with India, primarily because of Out-
Sourcing. Westerners, because they are loosing a lot of jobs to the ones in
India, plus the "dusty" economy of West! Indians, because they were forced out
of their beloved Work-Land, i.e the West, to move back to India. Grow-up
hackers...

------
ChrisNorstrom
Oh Jesus Christ... Not another one of these posts. Guys, why do you write
posts like this knowing the end result?

Someone brings to light an obvious flaw in _someone else's_ country, people
from that country feel like it's a direct attack on them and come up with
bullshit excuses, the bullshit annoys people and the whole conversation
spirals into denials, "I'm not in denial"s, "what about your _____"s, and
"that's not the same as ______"s being thrown back and forth.

Person A: Your country is shitty!

Person B: You don't understand us!

Person A: You're in denial.

Person B: What about your country?

Person A: At least we don't _______!

Person B: That's not the same as _______!

This is the worst way to criticize someone's country/behavoir/business. It's
all logic, no emotion, and humans do NOT respond well to it.

When criticizing some else's country always, ALWAYS, _ALWAYS_ include an equal
list of good and bad otherwise it _feels_ like an attack on that person's
homeland. The whole point of criticizing someone is to help them see their
flaws (which they've normalized to and are oblivious to) and get better, but
they can't get better when they aren't listening to you, and they aren't going
to listen to you if they feel you are attacking them, they will attack back.

~~~
lenkite
I think you are doing the Indian readership of HN a mild dis-service here.
Most here acknowledge the issues raised by the Author. We do feel hurt by his
conclusion, summed up as: "The whole country sucks", but well..things are what
they are.

As several readers have already stated, institutionalized corruption is the
bane of India today and no visible improvement is possible unless we tackle
and eliminate this first. But the political class and bureaucracy would never
allow this to happen.

Our "Lokpal" bill - the anti-corruption bill that that was fought for by a
popular activist with a hunger strike has now been in-definitely postponed by
the current coalition government. Due to a series of elementary media-
mismanagement blunders, the activist team lost the massive support they
initially had and the political class were quick and clever to capitalize on
these mistakes, perform character assassination, and sucessfully shoot down
the Lokpal bill along with it.

Most people I know are highly upset at this - many have even lost hope and
given up change as a lost cause in India. We had the whole of India massively
mobilized and firmly behind an anti-corruption drive for some months before
the activist team got a 'god' complex and attempted to re-direct this support
into their personal, pet agendas - one guy on his Kashmir stance, another on
his anti-alcoholic drive, another attempting to re-direct funds into his pet
charity, etc. They broke one fundamental rule of politics: never give your
political opponents juicy targets to shoot ammunition at. In politics, if you
are going against the norm, you are going to be heavily scrutinized. You need
to be lily-white if you want a chance to change things with people power.

The Indian middle class were dismayed at several of these relevations and
though people could swallow some of them, it become too much to eventually
swallow and the movement lost enough steam that the politicians and
bureaucracy have now put this bill indefinitely on the backburner - possibly
never to see the light again.

The LokPal bill was something originally raised in the 1960's btw.

I no longer believe that it is possible to affect any meaningful and lasting
change in Indian society without revolution - which would lead to its own
separate set of problems. Sure, you can donate a few years to charity and
helping NGO's will will do some trickle of good - a few scattered moments of
goodness in the vast, apathetic darkness and that's about the limit.

~~~
ChrisNorstrom
I am from Bulgaria. Every country has its flaws. If this article was about
Bulgaria. I myself would feel a bit hurt. I would immediately try to lesson
the blow of some of the arguments and accusations.

And just for the record, I'm being brutally honest about my own home country.
India with all its problems has much more of a future than Bulgaria does.
Bulgaria's population is shrinking, business is shrinking, villages are
shrinking. Every 5 years we go back and see how things have shrunk, life is a
bit harder, and corruption shows it's head in more places. Each year Bulgarian
businesses have less potential customers. At least in India everything is
growing, things are incrementally getting better.

My whole argument is that the author writing posts like this is not going to
change anything or do anything productive or constructive. It's just going to
hurt feelings without creating action. It's a useless article for Indians
because it's not encouraging, has no call to action, and just plain hurts. In
fact reading his article just makes me want to stay away from India. Honestly,
India was one of the places I wanted to visit in the next 10 years. After
reading that and mentally combining it with all the other "I went to India and
was shocked and disappointed" articles it makes me want to avoid the country
altogether for the next 30 years.

Everyone's country has _shit_. But if you're going to talk about the _shit_ in
Country_X. Equally talk about the flowers too. Otherwise the people living in
that shit have their motivation and drive to make it better taken away. And
others are given an overly negative view of Country_X.

------
gingerjoos
By being a foreigner and by travelling to touristy places the author is
immediately in the high risk category. There are a lot of people trying to
fleece tourists, especially foreigners. This colors some of his prespective,
for eg.

>But with only a couple hundred dollars lost, I got away fairly unscathed..

------
known
Many in north-east feel they are not Indians.
[http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-china-
she...](http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-china-shelters-
ulfa-leader-as-reply-to-dalai-lamas-base-in-india/20111101.htm)

------
known
For a westerner, the easiest way to understand is _Caste = Corruption_.

For e.g.

    
    
        1. If you kill somebody, you should be **hanged**, if you're NOT from my caste.
        2. If you kill somebody, you did it in **self-defense**, if you're from my caste.

------
donpark
Ironic that a follower of Buddha's path saw and felt exactly what Buddha saw
and felt thousands of years ago yet failed to recognize it.

More ironic is how Buddha's lifeboat for the poor and hungry turned out to be
intellectual's tool for enlightenment.

------
npcomplexity1
Slightly different perspective on poverty, happiness and cultural diversity in
India through the lens of music.
<http://www.youtube.com/show/soundtrippin?s=1>

------
sneak
People allow it to exist because they choose not to think about it, although
perhaps "choose" is too strong a word. It takes initiative to escape your
local worldview.

Great article, btw.

------
cvrajeesh
I don't know where the author is from, what I want remind him is - "Open your
mind, you are blind". Your are seeing what you would like to see, it's your
problem.

------
denzil_correa
Is it just me or does any other Indian find the Pizza Hut - "You've made an
excellent choice" funny? I've never understood it to be honest.

------
j45
India doesn't just have the best and worst of humanity in it. India puts a
real mirror to you on what you think you know.

We live in a bubble. Trying to change our world with startups is quite
different than trying to change the conditions 1 billion people live in.

The spectrum of good and bad in first world societies isn't as side as third
world country. It's maybe why the good isn't good enough in our lives.
Anything we experience in a foreign land as being shockingly bad, or good, can
show how out of touch we are with humanity, and our own humanity.

This begs a deeper issue. Everyone likes looking outward, trying to understand
the world, not themselves. We don't like righting with how little we actually
know, or, more importantly do.

This article in many ways mirrors my experience of India. It's real. Sorry the
education from TV makes it a bit shocking. That's what happens when we take
someone's word on how good things are in another part of the world. There's a
reason people want to leave and get out. Are Americans and Canadians desperate
to leave?

This 0-star India is the majority's India. Not the 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 star India
we can buy and hide in while visiting pretending to take in the foreign eat
pray love exoticness of it all. They say you can tell the true state of a
country by the numbers + health of their poorest. Similar experiences exist in
other countries too. The money at the top does not find it's way down. The
rich build themselves skyscrapers to live in so they don't have to deal with
anything beyond their 4 walls. When the majority is not enjoying the advanced
civilization, is it advanced, or civilized?

These are two good questions and ones worth not shying away from. They only
provide us with more understanding of ourselves, and with dots connected, more
determination to go make your startup fly. If we can't buy our self-worth and
esteem from commodities, brands, and experiences, how can we judge anyone
who's in such a harsh place of life not to improve their own life? Herein lies
the quagmire of duality.

India suffers. From the shadow of it's dark past of brutal oppression of the
masses by Indians themselves -- the masses were forbidden from education,
learning trades, defending themselves from invaders and left to a life of
subservience and suffering. This has carried through far too many generations,
over 600 years. Still I hope is humanity can find some way to correct itself
by the harshness of the original 1% in India.

If you go there, or anywhere, find your one corner of someone else's universe
to make a dent in, whether it's a school for orphaned girls in India, or
helping a homeless person in our own towns that everyone else sees as
invisible and shower animals with more care. The hunger in someone's eyes is
no different than mine when I have to drop what I'm doing and find some food.

When we give up on humanity towards others, we give up on our own too a
little, and feed the monster ourselves. The moment we dare to take a minute to
make strangers into real people, we become more human.

------
pattisapu
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)>

------
raphinou
Interesting. One note though: I wouldn't put Bill Gates and Lady Diana in the
same league as Mother Theresa.

------
stevewilhelm
If you found this interesting, you might want to read "The White Tiger: A
Novel" by Aravind Adiga.

------
mutex023
Really good article. In India you don't 'live' you 'survive' every day. Hehe.
(I'm an Indian btw)

------
kang
Rich. No other adjectives can convincingly describe the plethora that is
India. It is an experience that will kill you, and leave you discovering life
– discovering you. Take your senses on a ride with its varied geographies that
will raise you - with the tranquility to numb your thoughts - above the
highest Himalayas and send you dipping to the complex of seas - angry some and
transparent the others – not before it coats a layer of earth with the never
ending plains on your humility and etches the burns of beauty on its deserts
delving into the east so green as though you have travelled through the womb
of nature. And all that changes the way your body smells, your senses
perceive, your brain thinks. The sheer variety of a cocktail of experiences
that is shoved towards you – from the dead stone caves of the Deccan to the
fragrances of spice bazaars fighting among themselves, from the historical
makeup of its traditions to the coexistence of its diversity layered with the
shine of modernity all glued together by the religious cores of its life, from
chaotic noises of it populated cities to places pure virgin, unexplored, from
the finest of luxuries that the world has to offer to the free meals of a
temple, from the complexity of languages to the simplicity of the hearts of
its people – jostles your entire being. You learn that taste of food is not by
its ingredients but by the hand that cooks it, that vivacity of culture is not
in the art but in the artist that practices it, that the law of the land in
not by civilization but by the embedded civilization, that modernity is not
evolved from the old but that new is just a function of time and that time has
varying speeds & that it can even stand still or fly by - that relationships
do not necessarily need people to know each other. You may spend all your
money but might not be able even cover India’s peripheries or you may travel
all of India for almost no money. You may be astonished by the dynamics of
families; be warned - strangers may seem too eager to help. You may follow the
trails of most ancient of religions or you may stroll through shiny city
culture. India doesn’t need a preparation. Indian accepts you as you are.
Sometimes India will scare you. Sometimes India will confuse you. Sometimes it
will demand patience and sometimes it will test your sense-of-humor. Other
times, all of it would get so overwhelming that you would want it all to just
stop. And yet there will be times when you will let the experience flow
through you. Most people come to India in search of peace, some inner
philosophy or finding religion. You will be escorted to the most tranquilizing
places on this planet, to the most psychedelic aura that the nature has to
offer and to the most comprehensive of eastern philosophies. But that will not
quench you. And then, in the busiest of the moments, amongst the crowded of
places, you may discover ‘it’. Leaving India, it may not be certain that you
will have your answers but it can be assured that you will be at peace – with
yourself. Incredible. Absolutely unforgettable.

~~~
prawn
Not sure if you need a bit of help creating bullets on HN, or if paragraphs
were the one thing you didn't discover in India! If the former, prefix your
bullet hyphens on each new line with two spaces. If the latter, the Enter key
is free. :)

------
PaulHoule
awesome article

some of my best friends come from India. it's an interesting place.

------
shreyas056
all the debate aside, lets face it India has way more social problems than
most of the other countries in the world.

------
lcusack
I'm searching for the tl;dr?

~~~
prawn
"India has some problems."

To be honest, if you care to read more than that, you might get more insight
from reading some of the longer HN comments instead (from those who live in
India, but recognise these problems).

------
shellehs
after read this article, I wish I'd better never go to India from now then.

------
pwpwp
"[India's] not a pleasant place to be"

What a stupid and close-minded thing to say.

~~~
modarts
Well..it isn't; which is the main reasons I moved from there in the first
place.

------
powertower
I think I understand now why India has historically been the place that
produced enlightenment, at a greater rate than other countries have.... Out of
necessity.

It's hard to live in an environment like that without witnessing the game of
life (the suffering), and hopefully, existing out of it.

And I don't mean the suffering of the poor, but also of the rich, the middle
class, and everyone else there, that's a piece on the gameboard.

~~~
ankit28595
I would like to point out that the extreme poverty that India is known for
today is pretty much a legacy of the British Raj. The 'enlightenment' you are
talking about came much before that, when India was a much more peaceful and
prosperous area.

So the 'Out of necessity' argument you made is pointless.

~~~
tokenadult
_I would like to point out that the extreme poverty that India is known for
today is pretty much a legacy of the British Raj._

Today (2012) is sixty-five years since the independence of India from British
rule (1947). As an American, I have to agree with the general proposition that
British colonial rule is not the best form of government, but as an observer
of the great variety of former British colonies in the world that are now
independent countries, I invite readers here to think about why some of those
countries (including some that became independent more recently than India)
are now prosperous and free. Perhaps there are details about life in India and
policies of the independent government of India that kept India comparatively
poor and backward even after India won independence. It's a backward-looking
set of excuses to say "British rule was bad for us," as it may indeed have
been, without also being curious about "How have other countries thrived since
winning independence from Britain?"

As far as the bad influence of colonialism goes, I think in general French or
Spanish colonial rule have been even worse for most countries than British
colonial rule. And it appears that one way harm was mediated to many places of
the world by colonial rule is that socialism (especially hard-left socialism
like Marxism) was transmitted to colonies by Western colonial officials, and
then many countries pursued ineffective policies for national development for
decades after independence, because they were stuck in socialist ideology for
too long.

~~~
vacri
British rule in the Dominion countries went like this: exterminate or wholly
subjugate the natives, then flood the place with whiteys from Blighty. Same
thing happened in the US, but they took the subjugation a step further into
crusade territory with 'manifest destiny'. In effect, Britain was able to
transplant its culture and laws directly in these places.

British rule in India couldn't do this - half a billion people is a bit too
many to simply overrun. Instead they played factions against each other, one
trick being to give a smaller faction superior arms, they keep the peace and a
slice of the pie, but are wholly dependent on the supply of arms. British rule
in India was a massively different beast to the Dominion countries.

------
MyNewAccount99
why the hell did OP post this old ass december 2011 article to HN?

------
visava
<http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/kmu/kmu03.htm>

------
ashwinm
You haven't seen india fully,not even 10%. You cant blindly say the whole
india is a shit hole. come to south india.It will be much better.

~~~
Arun2009
> It will be much better.

I'm from Kerala - things may be slightly better here than say Bihar but not by
a whole lot.

~~~
ankit28595
Actually, there is strong feeling in at least in North India, that Kerala is
where whole India should be. I am from Haryana and though Haryana is much more
developed economically than Kerala, all my friends agree that Kerala is much
better. And when comparing to Bihar, the state is way ahead. At least the
statistics show that.

Kerala has the cleanest railway stations, the best sex ratio, the most
literate population, second least malnutrition (after Punjab).

~~~
nagarch
I have my friends who sits beside me.. he feels that lot of communal
problems..

