
RealNetworks crushes Dutch webmaster for hyperlink - sveenstra
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/tech-industry/3299285/realnetworks-crushes-dutch-webmaster-for-hyperlink/
======
fourspace
The most surprising part of this story is that RealNetworks is still in
business. What a horrible piece of software, on the server and the client
side.

~~~
driverdan
They're still around for 2 reasons: patent holdings and content networks. RN
holds some patents that are still used in a lot of software and makes revenue
from licensing fees. They also own content networks and make money by selling
advertising on them, similar to what AOL is now.

~~~
wnight
Patents and spam. Still, it's a step up from their video "product".

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mckoss
I feel for the victim here.

I find it distasteful to see <BIG COMPANY> using such a big hammer against a
little guy who just posted a link. "Real" IS an English word, after all -
their protections are therefore more limited. "Real Alternative" seems rather
descriptive, and not at all confusing to consumers (as well as having a clever
double meaning).

On a related note, I consider the early Real Player software to be malware,
due to it's Trojan installation of other software and aggressive attempts to
prevent removal. I've lost all trust in Real Networks - one of the reasons
they've spun off their music service as a separate entity, I imagine.

The market certainly punished them for this. But were they ever taken to court
over these practices (and violation of Computer Fraud and Abuse Act)?

~~~
Ogre
I worked for Real (Progressive Networks originally, the name changed while I
was there) way back in '96. The REALLY early players, RealAudio up through 3.0
and the first versions of RealVideo didn't install any of that crap. They
didn't install anything but the player (including a browser plugin, but that
was just a version of the player too). The malware didn't start until a year
or two later, after I'd left, but it always made me sad the direction they
went. When I was there, it felt like we were doing good things for the world.
At least the part of the world that wanted to stream tiny blurry videos over
28.8k modems.

This is pretty awful too. I don't really know what reason Real has for
existing any more. Rhapsody seemed like the only sort of worthwhile thing they
had, but I just learned yesterday they spun that off last year. Weird.

~~~
mckoss
Thanks for the insight. I think most people want to do the "right" thing. The
competition to be "THE" way people play media was very intense between Real,
Microsoft, and Apple. There was a lot of trickery on all sides uninstalling
other people's players, making them not the default, etc.

Too bad this all devolved so terribly and not in the direction of the best
experience for users.

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FuzzyDunlop
Out of curiosity, how is a hyperlink - presumably one stored on a page -
stored in a DNS cache. Because I didn't think DNS actually resolved the
contents of an HTML file. I didn't even think it resolved directory
structures.

Do they have to wait a few days for their fresh Wordpress installs to go live
around the world in the Netherlands? And how could that even prove anything
anyway even if a DNS somehow did more than link IPs to domain names?

Doesn't sound legit. And a bit of an oversight for a supposed tech site.

The translation of the apparent sources[1][2] doesn't seem to offer the same
story. So I'd call bullshit on PC Advisor.

[1][http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/107687/hyperlink-ru--neert-
websit...](http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/107687/hyperlink-ru--neert-
websitebouwer.html) [2][http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/107683/realnetworks-wil-
smartegel...](http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/107683/realnetworks-wil-smartegeld-
om-hyperlink.html)

~~~
joelhaasnoot
As a dutchey, I can say both sources are only talking about links, no DNS
mentions at all or anything related to domains...

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alexallain
Years ago when I had to download Real Player for one reason or another, they
wanted me to register my email with them. Not wanting to give them my email, I
put in a rather snarky bogus email. This was the result:
<http://i.imgur.com/3tIav.jpg>

One of the happiest moments of my life.

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jevinskie
Does Real Alternative rip out the codecs from a RealPlayer install and
repackage them? If so, that is clear copyright infringement but suing over a
link to the infringing software is asinine. If Real Alternative _doesn't_
include any code from RealNetworks, then the case is even more chilling. If
that is the case, when will they go hunting for VLC?

~~~
loup-vaillant
No they won't: VLC doesn't have "Real" in its name. A lawsuit over trademarks
would be too obviously abusive here.

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ggchappell
I don't like headlines line this. They misrepresent the problem.

The civil court system is supposed to allow for remedies of all kinds of
wrongs. Thus, basically anyone needs to be able to sue anyone else for just
about anything. And that's fine. It is then the responsibility of the courts
to ensure that lawsuits cannot be used as tools for bullying and extortion.

Assuming this article presents the facts completely and accurately, the court
system failed in its duty here. More to the point, RealNetworks did not
"crush" this guy; the Dutch courts did, at their request.

So if you have a problem with this case, don't blame RealNetworks, _blame the
court_. Blame the judge who ruled that servers should be confiscated without
giving their owner the opportunity to answer the accusations beforehand.
Furthermore, the way to fix the problem is to fix the civil court system, not
talk about how lousy RN is.

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blauwbilgorgel
Some views from an authoritative dutch IT lawyer Arnoud Engelfriet
[http://blog.iusmentis.com/2011/08/25/realnetworks-wil-
smarte...](http://blog.iusmentis.com/2011/08/25/realnetworks-wil-smartegeld-
om-hyperlink/)

\- Real Player put down a request for an Ex Parte case (court case without a
hearing).

\- The Ex Parte case assumed that the webmaster was hosting the infringing
software.

\- When this hosting claim did not held in court, Real Player still decided to
push the case for linking.

His view is along the lines of:

\- lawyers have a responsibility too. If these Ex Parte cases have no merit,
this should have consequences for the lawyer guiding his client into an Ex
Parte case.

\- Ex Parte cases are expensive and lawyers earn a lot, owing to the 150k+
legal costs (really high for Dutch standards). Frivolous Ex Parte cases could
border on abuse of the legal system for monetary gain.

For me, a cursory glance on the internet _does_ show servers with the name of
the suspect being referred to as mirrors for the Real Alternative software.
Also shortly after the newest releases, suggesting a relation between the
suspect and the unknown creator(s) of the software Real Alternative.

Real Alternative uses DLL's and marks (like logo's and icons) owned by Real
Player, so it is hard to make a case for fair play.

There is likely a lot more to this case than a simple hyperlink, even if it is
lawyers being lawyers. Linking to infringing software has no relation to Dutch
Copyright law (since it is not republishing), and isn't even grounds for an Ex
Parte.

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potatolicious
I used to live in Seattle and walked by the Real offices fairly regularly. I
can't help but wonder what the employees feel when their company does
something so _overtly_ evil like this.

Thankfully I've never worked for any company that's so blatantly evil. Sure,
controversial decisions, but not like this.

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capitan
Wait, RealNetworks is still around? Really?

~~~
shabble
They're not dead, they're just buffering? </obvious>

~~~
joshu
you win the thread

~~~
inoop
This is not Reddit.

~~~
joshu
It must be hard to get through life without a sense of humor.

~~~
inoop
It just wasn't very funny, creative, clever, or original. Every second comment
on Reddit these days seems to be 'I love you so much', 'this', 'you win the
internet', or 'sir, you are a scholar and a gentleman'.

Many of us here are Reddit refuges trying to escape this moronic behavior,
please don't bring it here.

~~~
jbri
Exactly. The whole point of upvotes is to be able to express that "I found
this funny/relevant/interesting/neat" idea without having to say so in a
comment, which does nothing but dilute whatever's worthwhile in the thread
without presenting anything of its own.

If you liked something, say so by upvoting - don't leave a comment unless you
have something of your own to say.

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mikaelgramont
Why should this guy be punished for people downloading stuff from some other
website? Why is Real going after him and not the other website? How can they
know how much traffic this guys sent to the other website?

THIS IS CRAZY!

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dethstarr
Real Networks is absolutely not relevant anymore. They had their "heyday" in
the late 90's when dial-up was king. This is pure corporate fascism at its
finest. Can't Real Networks go the way of the fallen -- and I use the term
loosely -- "internet companies" of the last century.

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bemmu
This is disgusting. I wish we could have a world where you do not just get
suddenly sued for doing no wrong. This could easily be you or me. Is there
anything real we can do to stop this type of stuff from happening?

~~~
michaelfeathers
I don't know, but it does seem that in many cases the cost and aggravation of
a suit are far worse than whatever remedy the suit seeks. That's the injustice
of the whole thing.

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dbuizert
All I read was, we are still alive and after your money for providing a better
alternative.

I am surprised that RealNetworks is still here. That software was so bad!

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rbanffy
Maybe the only thing worse than management by managers is this: management by
lawyers.

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darklajid
Using a beefy headline like this (crushes!) and having a typo in the subtitle
'pacakge' somehow immediately turns me away..

Gives me a yellow press / tabloid feeling?

~~~
cezar_sl
Well, they did cost him enough for him not to be able to buy a house.

I can't believe something like this is happening. It's not like
RealAlternative stole their code. You don't see Apple griefing about
QuickTimeAlternative, and that uses it's full name.

~~~
darklajid
Maybe. I skimmed the article and it seems he has to provide a lot of money
upfront.

No idea about the dutch legal system, but it seems that the loser pays for the
legal costs of the winner (as it should be in my book). So - since the claim
ist totally bogus and idiotic, I'd expect him to get all the money back and RM
to pay for it.

~~~
Daps0l
"but it seems that the loser pays for the legal costs of the winner"

Not always, and often only a part of the costs. The judge decides about this
depending on the case.

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liquidcool
These days I only interact with Real through Rhapsody, but if this is their
idea of corporate citizenship I'm moving to Spotify.

~~~
WalterGR
I won't stop you from sticking it to Rhapsody (their software has lost my
music library several times,) but they've been independent from RealNetworks
since April of last year.

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antihero
What a bunch of arseholes.

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guard-of-terra
Looking at the latest news, it seems that Dutch court would do anything that
american corporations would ask it to, event against its local people. What
makes them do so?

