
Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains - aaronbrethorst
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/04/europe-night-train-sweden-eco-travel-sleeper-car-fossil-free/586228/
======
avolcano
Excited about this idea. I wanted to do an overnight train in a Europe trip I
did last year, but the timing and quality never quite worked out. A lot of the
time, trains between cities in western Europe are annoyingly long for a day
trip, but slightly _too short_ for overnight trips - almost like an
NYC->London red-eye, where you arrive just after you fall asleep. The couple
of overnight trains I saw that seemed like they'd work out timing-wise, like
Paris to Venice, had really poor reviews, but I assume that's down to the
various companies running these services, who probably haven't invested much
in them lately as budget airlines continue to compete so heavily.

Sweden seems perfectly set up to invest in overnighters, though, as the
article notes some theoretical routes. Norway and Denmark would benefit too, I
think; at one point I was investigating doing a trip that would involve going
from Oslo to Copenhagen, and the only reasonable non-flight options were an
overnight _ferry_ (which, all things considered, was surprisingly cheap,
though I'm sure they gouge you on food and the on-ship shopping mall), or a 7
and a half hour train trip that'd take all day. If Sweden were running
overnight service along that route through Gothenburg, connecting those
countries, it'd be a pretty awesome way to get between places.

~~~
Symbiote
You write "_ferry_" like it's something weird, but it's a completely normal
transport option for a huge number of Europeans -- usually for longer
journeys, but sometimes to cover a short distance in 20-30 minutes. There are
many ferry connections across the Irish, North, Baltic and Mediterranean seas.

Ignoring the price, I'd choose an overnight ferry over an overnight train. The
worst room on a ferry is probably as large as the best room on an overnight
train.

The food menu for Oslo-Copenhagen is [1], the prices seem in-line with what
I'd expect to pay at a restaurant in either city, though I don't know what the
quality is like.

[1] [https://www.dfdsseaways.co.uk/onboard-our-
ferries/copenhagen...](https://www.dfdsseaways.co.uk/onboard-our-
ferries/copenhagen-oslo/eating)

~~~
zensavona
Interestingly enough in Europe there are places [1] where you can take a train
which goes on a ferry, so you can take the ferry while you take the train

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogelfluglinie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogelfluglinie)

~~~
bogomipz
I've taken this train from Hamburg to Coppenhagen. It's fascinating to watch
the train be put on the ferry and then you got a nice ferry ride and can
marvel at the size of the wind farms off the coast. I would highly recommend
it if you have the time.

~~~
acjohnson55
I took this ride once but didn't actually know that was how it worked. I woke
up in an empty car clearly in some kind of enclosure. It wasn't until leaving
the car and going up a set of stairs that I realized my train was on a boat.

Until then, I wasn't so sure I wasn't in a rail yard or sci-fi movie.

~~~
bodyfour
I'm actually surprised they let you stay on the train. Both times I've taken
that route they seemed pretty diligent about making sure everybody was off the
train. I assume this is for safety reasons -- down in a darkened train on the
lowest deck would be the last place I'd want to be if the ferry had any
difficulties.

I really liked the ferry experience. The ferry part is only about 40 minutes,
but it's just enough time to have a quick meal in the on-board restaurant.
Unsurprisingly it's not exactly a bargain price for a buffet, but it did break
up the train journey nicely. It's pleasant to sit in a comfortable booth and
stare out at the sea for a bit.

~~~
Tijdreiziger
> it's just enough time to have a quick meal in the on-board restaurant

The pickings seemed pretty slim for vegetarians, though, which took me by
surprise as nearly every restaurant these days has at least one vegetarian
option. I ended up having some plain fries with ketchup.

~~~
bodyfour
Yes, I'm a vegetarian myself and also would have appreciated a better
selection in that regard. Both times I ended up having meals that were heavy
in the potato and cheese departments. The buffet had some fruit and cooked
vegetables as well, but nothing that was really a main dish by itself. Still,
I didn't go hungry or anything.

------
p2t2p
So back in Russia a trip from my home town to Moscow on a plane takes about 6
hours in total.

\- get to the airport about 1 hour in advance - about 1.5 hour drive \- The
flight with all the procedures takes about 2 hours \- All the exit procedures
can take up to 0.5 hours easily if no longer \- Wait for a train and ride to
the city on the train - about 1 hour. \- Once in the city get on subway and
ride to destination - usually 1 hours as well.

Compare it to the train, the fastest one is 14 hours:

\- 0.5 hours to get to the trains station in the middle of my hometown. (or
less than 0.5 hours if you live near by) \- 14 hours laying down on a
relatively ok bed with clean sheets \- BOOM! you're in the middle of Moscow

No check-ins, luggage management, no nothing.

6pm you lay down on a bed, have a much, read a book, go to sleep and next
morning you wake up at 7 am, do your morning rooting and at 8 am you're almost
in the middle of the city.

I take this train over a plane any day. The only problem with that is that it
twice or more as expensive compared to plane tickets.

~~~
readhn
it would be fun to take a trans-siberian rail ... except it takes like what
...7 days? eats up vacation time pretty quickly.

~~~
fritkot
In this case, the trainride IS the vacation. You don't take the Trans-Siberian
primarily to get from Moscow to Vladivostok / Beijing, but to check out
everything else along the way.

------
z2
Overnight trains are wonderful for traveling and saving a night's hotel. I
used to take sleeper cars in China for distances that made sense (e.g. board
at 9pm, arrive 7am). Some with shorter distances even optimized on sleep so
that the train would stop for an hour outside the final station and arrive at
a reasonable time in the morning. Unfortunately and similar with Europe, high
speed rail has ended many of these schedules. On a side note, I've also failed
to take this train multiple times in Japan due to its popularity:
[https://www.japan-rail-pass.com/japan-by-rail/travel-
tips/su...](https://www.japan-rail-pass.com/japan-by-rail/travel-tips/sunrise-
izumo)

~~~
calyth2018
That's what I did when I went around northern Europe. Took the Stockholm to
Malmo, and then switch to Copenhagen. Unfortunately, I don't think there was
sleeper cars.

That train departed late evening, got us there in the daytime. I figured if
I'm paying to sleep, I might as well be moving. I only wish that there was
bunks on that train.

~~~
winterswift
There are sleeper compartments on the SJ Night trains – I took one to Malmö,
but they also run to the north and across to Göteborg.

[https://www.sj.se/en/about/about-sj/our-trains/sj-night-
trai...](https://www.sj.se/en/about/about-sj/our-trains/sj-night-train.html)

~~~
Tijdreiziger
> they also run to the north

I took the sleeper from Stockholm to Kiruna in Lapland not too long ago.
Definitely takes a while but it was a really nice experience!

------
krn
Western Europe is very different from Eastern Europe in this case.

In Western Europe, low-cost flights and buses essentially won the market.

But there are not as many direct flights between Central and Eastern European
cities, and the roads are often not that good, either.

Therefore, in any direction from Budapest overnight trains are still very
popular, and in countries like Ukraine it's probably the single most important
way to travel long distances.

The overnight trains in Central and Eastern Europe are much cheaper, too. For
instance, a seat in Budapest - Belgrad costs 15€, and a bed in Kiev - Lviv
starts at around 8€.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
The rise of Wizzair is reducing the appeal of long-distance train travel in
Central and Eastern Europe. You can now fly from Budapest to certain
destinations in surrounding countries for equal to or less than the price of
the train if you book early or have little luggage.

Also, the launch of Polski Bus (a localized Megacoach) a few years ago means
you can get between Poland and various Central European destinations for as
little as 5€, again cheaper than the train.

~~~
chungleong
And the national train operators are being challenged on their own turf by
open-access operators. The days of sleepers are probably numbered in this part
of the Europe. Wagons with convertible benches are uncomfortable both for
sitting and sleeping. They're utterly uncompetitive vis-a-vis reclinable seats
deployed by operators like Leo Express. Perhaps one day they'll start putting
lie-flat recliners used in airliners on trains one day. That's more economical
--and flexible--than having separate rooms.

P.S. Polski Bus has been absorbed into Flixbus.

------
nicolaslem
I was disappointed when I checked if it was possible to do Paris-Warsaw by
night train. I imagined entering the train at 5pm, eating something, watching
a movie and waking up in Paris in the morning.

It sounded much better to me than spending an actual day commuting to/from far
away airports and waiting in queues.

Unfortunately such train does not exist, but neither does the platform that
would allow searching and booking such trips across Europe.

~~~
random878
Warsaw on a warm summer evening. The sun is setting and there is a beautiful
sky above the equally beautiful city. You relax into you sleeper cabin, and
gaze out of the window waiting for the train to depart. 'Such a friendly city.
Beautiful country.' you think to yourself. The train pulls out of the station.
You watch the countryside pass as the night turns dark. You go to sleep.

-

You wake up at Gare du Nord. At least you think it's Gare du Nord. This can't
be Paris, surely?! You think to yourself. You quickly leave the train to try
and find out what horrendous 3rd world shithole your wrong train has taken you
to... You immediately step in dog shit. You try to hop on one foot and clean
it off. An tour group barge past you and knocks you over. A commuter flicks
his cigarette toward the floor, hitting you in the face. He doesn't see you.
Or maybe he just doesn't care. You can't tell. 'I need to get back to
civilisation' you think to yourself as you get up and dust yourself off. You
go to grab you suitcase. It's not there. It's in the hand of a Romanian
running off down the platform. Welcome to Paris.

~~~
smcl
Downvoted - your Romanian stereotype is unacceptable and you need to know this

~~~
random878
+1 Internet offended point to you.

------
skrebbel
My experience is that flying inside Europe tends to be cheaper than long-
distance train. Does anyone here whether it's simply intrinsically cheaper, or
whether it's all because of kerosine subsidies etc? In other words, if
countries would subsidize long-distance train as much as they subsidize air
flight, would the economics look different? Would train get substantially
cheaper? I lack both the insight and the data to do this math.

~~~
alkonaut
Air travel is extremely tax-subsidized. If taxes on airplane fuel was similar
to car petrol taxes in Europe that would be a good start. I hope there can be
some sort of EU-wide agreement on that soon, because the current state of
affairs is pretty silly and there is no way a single country can unilaterally
impose high CO2 taxes on airlines.

~~~
Shivetya
trains are even more heavily subsidized so I don't understand the comment. the
EU restricts subsidizing airlines and similar at all but the smallest fields
and even has pursued having some airlines refund monies giving to them in
violation of the rules. There are tax breaks in the form of not paying VAT for
domestic flight routes but overall the cost for all air travel breaks is less
than twenty billion Euros whereas subsidies for rail and worse the debts[2]
for building and maintenance are ten to twenty times as much.

finally the one issue that stands out, is that while European members use rail
at over five times the average of Americans it only works out to approximately
600 miles per year versus 100. Urban transport usage is only double the
average use in American but that is a 120 uses per year versus 60. [1]

Then to make it even worse by focusing so much subsidies and expense on trying
to convince people to take rail it has caused much more freight to end up on
roads. In the US over forty percent of freight goes by rail, in the EU it is
around eleven percent. So for the limited gains of moving people by rail are
slaughtered by the losses in resulting environmental and financial impact of
moving freight over roads.

The truth is many have this romantic view of rail travel which is not
supported by facts. Politicians in the EU, where the lines are almost all
government owned, love rail because its very visible and people don't look
below the surface to see the reality of actual cost, debt load, and lack of
real usage.

[1]
[https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/3217494/5711595/KS-D...](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/3217494/5711595/KS-
DA-09-001-EN.PDF/9c90d489-5009-4acc-9810-ae39612897d3)

[2]
[https://re.public.polimi.it/retrieve/handle/11311/1015984/18...](https://re.public.polimi.it/retrieve/handle/11311/1015984/186783/Beria%20Bel%20et%20al%20-%20Mismatches%20HSR%20Italy%20n%20Spain%20-%20PAPER%2013%20%5BSENT%5D.pdf)

~~~
alkonaut
> the EU restricts subsidizing airlines

I didn't mean subsidized in the sens of "tax money is given to airlines" I
meant energy taxes for other means of transportation are much higher than for
airplane fuel, which pay very low CO2 taxes compared e.g. to cars. That is:
they are given an advantage through the CO2 taxation.

If planes paid for their CO2 emissions, we'd be closer to having the train be
cheaper than flying.

Obviously we want both more passengers and freight to go by rail. To get there
requires investments in infrastructure. Sweden being the most blatant example
of where in the last 2 decades, rail infrastructure maintenance was the first
thing cut to compensate whatever budget hole needed to be filled. It's now
decades behind, and that's the main reason I can't take a train between
Stockholm and Gothenburg and expect to make my meeting in time - instead I
have to fly or drive this quite short bit, even though both the the time it
takes and the cost is similar. The train simply isn't reliable enough to use
to go to an important meeting.

~~~
njepa
Unfortunately it isn't unexpected. It has been pretty clear that the current
policy is favoring older domestic businesses over the cluster based "knowledge
economy". The opportunity cost of having Bromma Airport taking up useful land
is enormous. So is not investing in regional development.

------
niftich
Sleeper trains are doing fine in Central and Eastern Europe, despite having to
contend with some long running times. Sweden is trying to revive them through
Denmark, which hasn't hosted night trains since 2014 [1].

There's two viable, existing routes for trains between the Central Sweden and
Northern Germany. One's through the Fehmarn Belt rail ferry, and another is
the long way through Jutland. Both ways take a long time compared to the
distance covered. Stockholm is already ~5 hours by fast train from Copenhagen
-- this segment of the journey stays the same. It's after that things get
complicated and slow. Operational issues remain with changing voltages and
train protection systems (ETCS Level 2 will be built out in a few years), or
with the ferry.

A Fehmarn Belt fixed link would be a boon for such a service, like the article
says. But it remains to be seen whether that will be built.

[1] [https://back-on-track.eu/night-trains-to-europe-new-
opportun...](https://back-on-track.eu/night-trains-to-europe-new-
opportunities-to-scandinavian-sustainable-travelers/)

~~~
rory
Re: Central and Eastern Europe, I took an overnight (sort of, 5AM to 5PM)
sleeper train from Lviv to Budapest a couple years ago. It was quite pleasant
and they managed the journey in a way I never would have expected. Instead of
passenger layovers and shuffling between trains at subsequent stations, they
just designated a whole car bound for Budapest and then detached & reattached
it to different trains along the way. Made the long ride a surprisingly
pleasant and restful experience.

~~~
gpvos
They're called though coaches (Kurswagen in German) and used to be quite
common. In fact, quite a few night trains are split and recombined during the
night, but usually in chunks of three or four cars.

------
robin_reala
The invaluable Seat61 has loads on information on how and where to take
sleeper trains at
[https://www.seat61.com/sleepers.htm](https://www.seat61.com/sleepers.htm)

~~~
Rebelgecko
Thanks, I'm planning a trip to Europe later this year and this site looks like
a fantastic resource.

------
koib
This is a very good idea if it works reliably. However, from my experiences
with sleeper trains in Sweden (via SJ), it's quite inconsistent. Just the
other month, I took a sleeper from Stockholm to Kiruna and it was delayed by
9+ hours! Good thing this was an unplanned vacation so I had time. The
customer service was excellent though, they were attentive and reimbursed me
for the train tickets, hotels, food and car rental. I can't imagine myself
using the sleeper trains for any business purposes though as I've had many
delays with them.

~~~
stareatgoats
Yes, I'm all for sleeper trains, but Sweden has the worst maintained
infrastructure. They are trying to catch up after decades of neglect, but are
open about expecting continuing disturbances for years to come. It is not only
a nuisance, reimbursements or not; it's outright risky and a damn shame
because we really need trains now

The "new economy" made popular round the turn of the millennium didn't deliver
on it's promise of solving everything imaginable, just by turning maintenance
of public assets over to lowest bidder private entrepreneurs. Go figure.

------
fitzroy
My girlfriend and I travelled through Europe last summer and I was hoping to
take overnight trains as much as possible, unfortunately the train strike in
France killed a lot of that plan. Still, we were able to take two overnight
sleepers. Rome to Turin and Budapest to Prague.

Rome to Turin would have been fine, except the air conditioning barely worked,
which would have also been okay except (unlike 20 years ago) the window only
opened about an inch. We had been backpacking all day in the hot sun. If you
have trouble sleeping when it's hot, and you're traveling during the summer,
this is something to consider. It made the night pretty miserable. I can't
imagine how bad this would have been in a 4 or 6 person couchette. The Italian
train was about $200USD total for both of us.

For Budapest to Prague we were able to book one of the three deluxe sleepers
with a private toilet and shower. The trains were both newer, cheaper ($150USD
total for both of us), and the AC worked better. Whether the deluxe is worth
it is a toss up. You'll get bounced around a lot in the shower (part of the
charm?) and having the private toilet, while convenient, gives the whole room
a vaguely gross smell similar to sitting near a restroom on a plane.

\- Sleepers will not save you money vs a cheap hotel + day train (although the
4 or 6 person couchette might save a bit), and the trains shake and vibrate a
lot.

\- Booking tickets is a pain until you get used to it (for each new country).
The "English" version of whatever train site is often about 60% English at
best (cough, ItaliaRail...). The Hungarian website (MÁV-Start) is a UX
disaster. But you can often book on the destination country site, as well as
the departure country. Luckily, we were able to book on the Czech site (CD)
instead.

\- You will sometimes need a printed ticket that can be physically stamped for
part of the journey. Check in advance.

\- Sleepers on popular routes book up quickly. They often either get very
expensive or sell out completely at peak times.

\- seat61.com is an absolute lifesaver.

Still, with all of the "challenges" there are tons of little charming elements
about overnight trains: differences in the layout of the spaces, the
adorable/offensive gendered gift boxes (I got a razor and my girlfriend got a
pink sewing kit), disposable paper slippers that I ended using for 2 months...

Anyway, happy to answer any questions from my limited (but enthusiastic)
experience.

------
jwr
I used overnight trains many times in my life. They are great, but if the
revival is to succeed, we need better solutions for security. Theft was always
a problem in sleeper trains. There needs to be a way to lock yourself in and
have an alarm sound whenever someone opens the door with an override.

~~~
gpvos
The European night trains I've been in all have physical locks that are only
openable from the inside. Things could be stolen by other people in your
compartment, but that's a lot less likely. I also have a preference for the
upper bunks/beds, because you can stow your luggage in a nook above the
wagon's side corridor, and thieves will have to actually get past you to get
at your stuff (except for maybe the person on the bunk opposite you if you're
in a couchette compartment). Seating compartments are to be avoided; I can't
sleep in them anyway.

~~~
jwr
> all have physical locks that are only openable from the inside

Really? I thought all these locks can be opened from the outside by railway
personnel using a "special key", which of course means that the thieves have
access to that "special key" as well.

------
bogle
We've just upgraded our London to Scotland sleeper service recently. It's not
cheap but's it's fun!

If you want to get into the Highlands it's a lot more convenient, too: Fort
William is hours from a major airport.

Going from Edinburgh to London it's really useful as you end up right in the
heart of the London.

[https://www.sleeper.scot/](https://www.sleeper.scot/)

------
leroy_masochist
Overnight trains are awesome and I am glad they are making a resurgence but is
$5.3mm really "a major shot in the arm for Europe’s night trains overall"?
That's not very much money for infrastructure. Perhaps the important thing
here is that the Swedes are publicly announcing that they're spending money on
this, in general.

The cooler night train story is what is going on in Asia -- lots of projects
in the works such as an Istanbul-Baku luxury sleeper train and major new
Chinese routes such as Dushanbe-Kashgar and Lhasa-Yunnan.

~~~
fearhugs
100% agree. Would have thought $5.3m is barely be enough to fund a proper
advertising campaign.

------
DoubleCribble
As of 25 years ago this was THE way for a backpacker with a Eurail pass to see
the continent during the summer. The cheap cars (ie 6 beds/room) were
basically a youth hostel on rails. It was a fantastic way to meet other
travelers and explore new cities together.

~~~
FearNotDaniel
Yup, I did this for a month back in my student days - the ticket is called
Inter-Rail if you buy it within Europe. I was incentivised to basically visit
a different country every day because every night spent on a train was one you
didn't have to pay for a hostel! Also, some places like Florence had a free
campsite with wooden shelters, you just had to bring a sleeping bag, and the
month's rail ticket included an overnight ferry from Italy to Greece. Happy
days!

------
keeganjw
With the addition of the Fehmarnbelt Tunnel potentially coming in 2028, it
would be much more attractive for people in all the Nordic countries to take
an overnight train into central Europe and vice versa. It looks like
construction will begin this fall in Denmark.

[http://www.globalconstructionreview.com/news/green-
light-74b...](http://www.globalconstructionreview.com/news/green-light-74bn-
tunnel-between-denmark-and-german/)

------
Shalle135
The hing about trains in general though is the pricing around it.

In Sweden a flight from the northern parts to the southern is about $100 and
takes an hour. The train cost $100-200 and takes about 16h depending on where
you depart from.

I believe a requirement for people choosing to take the train is that they add
some facilities (you feel pretty nasty after 16h on a train) and reduce the
price. Raising the price on flights won’t help unless it’s drastically, around
2-300%. And if you do this on domestic flights then nobody will afford
international flights.

~~~
ptaipale
Another point (not in Sweden) is that the rail operators are government-owned
companies which often operate like the government does.

Couple of months back, I tried to buy a ticket to the car-train to Lapland (I
can take the car with me to train in the evening, sleep in a cabin, wake up in
the morning and set off for the remainder of the journey with my car). When
booking the car slot, the booking system required me to enable flash and when
it got started, it just rotated that thing on the browser window.

I got bored, checked out flights. In 5 minutes I had flight tickets, with
extra bags paid, and a rental car, at half the total cost of what the car-
train would have been. I returned to the booking window, it still had that
rotating thing on the browser window. I closed the window and did not miss it.

~~~
belorn
The rail infrastructure is government operated, but train companies that are
responsible for all customer interaction is not. SJ is just as government-
owned as SAS. The rail is basically like the airport, and the train companies
are like airlines.

The general problem is the lack of competition. Between two destinations you
usually have the choice between multiple airlines, but for trains there is
usually only one. Between malmö-göteborg-stockholm there is the fast train
alternative but it is arguable if that actually serve as competition. With
air-travel you got multiple airlines and multiple resellers.

Swedish rail operate like a monopoly, which is in my view the main reason why
its both expensive and terrible at the same time.

~~~
ptaipale
Quite, though I think Swedish situation regarding competition is somewhat
better than my experience which was in Finland - here there's only the
government-owned VR (former Statsjärnvägarna).

------
elamje
> That delay would be in order to wait for the construction of an 11-mile-long
> rail tunnel between Denmark and Copenhagen called the Fehmarn Belt Fixed
> Link, which would reduce the journey time by train from Copenhagen to
> Hamburg from five hours to just two.

The author meant to say "11-mile-long rail tunnel between Denmark and Germany"
as Denmark and Copenhagen do not need to be connected with a tunnel since they
are already quite closely connected.

------
kliao
Good in theory, but implementation was poor the one time I tried it. The
6-person sleeper car is extremely cramped (2 triple bunks), and with the
passport checks at border crossings, it's difficult to get a good night's
sleep. Personal safety and luggage theft was a concern as well. I canceled my
return trip and booked a low cost flight instead. Maybe the extra funding will
improve train conditions and process.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> The 6-person sleeper car is extremely cramped (2 triple bunks)

You get what you pay for. There was probably an option of a 4-person
compartment (2 double bunks), or perhaps even a first-class option with a two-
person compartment. FWIW, I personally have never had a problem sleeping even
in the 6-person cars; people are generally respectful of each other.

> with the passport checks at border crossings, it's difficult to get a good
> night's sleep.

Where was this with passport checks with border crossings? Were you somewhere
in Eastern Europe? There is plenty of room for overnight trains within
Schengen where passports are not generally checked at border crossings.

~~~
danielfoster
There are still occasionally passport checks at EU borders.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
With the migration crisis, spot checks have been introduced at a few select
crossings, but that still leaves plenty of possible train routes within
Schengen where the authorities are not concerned about checking for migrants.

~~~
Scoundreller
Or any excuse a Member State wants to justify their “temporary” checkpoint.

Don’t worry, MEPs won’t do anything more than talk about it.

[https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-
do/policies/border...](https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-
do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en)

------
elamje
I took an overnight train in Sweden from Stockholm to Åre a couple of years
ago. My experience was average at best, but possibly not good data. I was in a
6 person room (3 beds stacked on each side), and I ended up on the top bed.

It was pretty hard to fall asleep on a slowly, but slightly rocking train,
then add in other strangers you are sleeping around, and it makes it even less
comfortable.

I ended up just sleeping in 30 minute intervals, woken up by the rocking of
the relatively smooth train. I would imagine it might be a good experience if
friends/family took a cabin together, but with strangers it's not very
comfortable (although some might disagree). Additionally, being on the top
bunk made me subject to wider rocking then the people below me. I can imagine
the experience being terrible if you don't have completely silent bunkmates
like I got lucky with.

I think it might catch the attention of people who haven't done it before, but
I didn't think it was anything to write home about.

~~~
Tijdreiziger
> I was in a 6 person room (3 beds stacked on each side)

That sounds like a couchette (i.e. no real mattress, just a bunk). My
experiences with those are also quite bad. A bed in a real sleeper cabin (with
an actual mattress) is much more comfortable.

------
jeena
I'm traveling from Gothenburg to Berlin basically on at least a monthly basis.
Ever since I moved to Sweden 2005 I was looking for night trains to bring me
to the continent but there weren't any.

Early on I took day trains but they took so much time that I never had wiggle
time and since the Deutsche Bahn got private they are notoriously late which
meant that most of the time I wouldn't catch the last train from Copenhagen
and needed to take a expensive taxi for the last hundred of kilometers late
during the night after a 16 hour journey.

The weird thing is that the flights just go on time and even though it takes
time to get to and from the airport it's possible to calculate the time when
you will arrive, ect. which is really important with businesses. With Deutsche
Bahn you basically never know if you will arrive on the day they promised or
not.

~~~
henrikschroder
I travelled Stockholm-Copenhagen biweekly for a couple of years, and flying
was cheaper and faster door-to-door than the train pretty much 100% of the
time. That includes getting through airport security and taking public
transportation to/from the airports at either end.

I mean, I would have preferred to take the train, but I'm not going to pay
more to get there slower...

~~~
njepa
With the train you potentially lose a lot less productive time. Air travel
can't be made much nicer since there are too many hard limits. The train
however suffers from a lack of investment in fundamentals. A lot of people
live in the suburbs today, where the train doesn't stop. Stockholm central
station is despite the many renovations not very nice. The trains themselves
are getting old. The infrastructure and service isn't what it could be either.
And maybe most of all everything is just expensive in Sweden, and the Nordics,
these days.

If you could have a slightly faster train with first class airline interior
and a matching, not too expensive, hotel on top of the train station it would
be a competitive proposal. But while I can appreciate that people like to talk
about trains on hacker news the story really is that the future isn't
happening in Sweden. Rather we seem to be on a seemingly predictable path
following countries like the US and the UK were we are incapable of making
long term investments and everything of value is getting expensive.

------
kryptiskt
It's just like a year ago that SJ tried to kill off the Malmö-Stockholm
sleeper. I believe that this will work out when I see it.

~~~
ahje
As I read the article, the "revival" is more about the government trying to
get people to reduce their carbon footprint when travelling, and less about
popular demand.

That being said, I remember taking the sleeper from Stockholm to Elsinore in
Denmark as a kid. Boarding the ferry while on the train was pretty awesome to
a ten year-old. :P

------
jor-el
Last time I took such overnight train in Europe was Frankfurt to Copenhagen in
2013 by DB, and it was nice and comfortable. Trains always have more leg space
and moving around areas than an airplane. With budget airlines they are trying
to cram in as many people as possible, almost to the point of making you feel
claustrophobic.

With trains there is no hassle of going to the airport, as they are mostly
around city center. Also, I found people to be more friendly in trains, unlike
in airplane, where most people have their headphones on, and do-not-disturb
expressions.

------
jompa
I take this train 3-4 times a year going from stockholm-luleå and it's great.
You can get a 6 person cabin when travelling in a company of 4 which is great
when you have small kids. This way you a whole cabin for them be pains without
disturbing anybody else and it's much more of an adventure and much more cosy.
I would love to have more good alternatives to travel by night trains because
I really dislike airports and flying. One of the problems is that it's much
more expensive to travel by train than the flying alternative.

~~~
elamje
Whats the cost comparison for the SJ vs SAS to Luleå?

------
gumby
Yes please. I traveled this way a lot as a child, and have recently done so
for recreation.

But when you factor in all the hassles of air travel, the opportunity to
arrive well rested, possibly with some work done, the city center to city
center scenario is superior to air (because though travel time itself is
shorter, there's all the security hassles, getting to the airport, checking
into a hotel for a brief nap, etc).

Note: I can sleep through stops, equipment changes etc. I don't know if that
is common or not.

------
the_mitsuhiko
The Austrian federal railways (OeBB) is doing really well with night trains
after the takeover. They even ordered new trains which should go into service
in 2022. Really happy for this because the current rolling stock is just
ancient and sleepers are a nice concept.

------
petre
This is smart because it uses electricity during the lowest demand period of
the energy load profile. If your country or one of its neighbours has high
base load power generation like France does, it makes a lot of sense to run
electric trains during the night because they'll use electricity which is
otherwise sold at a discount or redirected to pumped hydroelectric storage or
other storage options if they exist.

------
reaperducer
I'm not sure about "revive," since sleeper trains have been coming back in
Europe for years.

There was a Wall Street Journal article about it recently.

Sorry the link is Apple News, but that's where I bookmarked it from:
[https://apple.news/AdFPGWf-GTmOabJK30Za0ZQ](https://apple.news/AdFPGWf-
GTmOabJK30Za0ZQ)

~~~
blunte
Too bad I can't read WSJ, so I can't verify what they're saying. However, I
haven't had much luck finding overnight trains here. It used to be that many
existed and were popular, but they started disappearing and now few routes
still have overnight options.

~~~
reaperducer
If this helps...

"In Europe alone, several new affordable options have materialized too,
running more utilitarian services (no guided excursions, just overnight
schedules). In 2017, the United Kingdom’s Great Western Railway (GWR)
relaunched the Night Riviera, traveling between London and Cornwall, one of
England’s sunniest corners. Also in 2017, Italy’s Trenitalia-owned Thello
debuted new sleeper cars with en suite showers on their Paris to Venice route.
And in June 2019, Scotland’s Caledonian Sleeper will debut highly anticipated
new cars with routes from London to Glasgow and Edinburgh and Highlander
routes to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William with en suite showers, double
beds and plenty of whiskeys in the bar car."

~~~
Symbiote
"Relaunched", at least for the two British trains, seems to mean they
refurbished the carriages and issued a press release.

I used both of these trains as a student (late 2000s), so I'm not convinced
that they weren't affordable before the relaunch.

~~~
ghaff
I also enjoyed "Cornwall, one of England’s sunniest corners" though it was
admittedly mostly nice last time I was there. That said, might have been a
useful option when I did a coastal walk last summer.

------
adrianN
Low-Tech Magazine had a nice article about the trouble with the European rail
network:
[https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/trains/](https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/trains/)

------
jayalpha
I love night trains. Trains a underrated in general.

I wish the EU would invest heavily in trains. There should be high speed and
sleeper trains all over Europe. Single rail cars could have different
destinations with automatic coupling/decoupling outside of cities. You can run
trains easily on Thorium generated electricity, so the tech is future proof.

Cargo should also be moved to the tracks:
[https://www.cargobeamer.eu/](https://www.cargobeamer.eu/)

------
etiam
Swedish railways have been staggeringly mismanaged and neglected since the
1990s. I wouldn't be surprised if they're one of the worst managed railway
systems in the entirety of what used to be known as the developed world.

But it would be wonderful to have them restored and have international
overnight services added. Hoping, with some skepticism, that the politics
translate to reality here.

~~~
Melchizedek
You are right but it's not likely to be fixed. On the contrary, the government
has extracted billions upon billions in dividends from the state railway
company, in order to shore up the budget.

------
simonsaidit
Remember my school trip..denmark to italy. Drunk most of the way and still
felt like being on a moving train hours after we got off.

------
Zenst
One issue night trains face when being reintroduced/introduced upon routes
would be Urban sprawl and development.

In many Major towns and along those routes can and do become developed upon.
You then face noise factors that you did not have before in reintroducing
night trains and for introduction upon new routes - more so potentially an
issue.

Whilst night trains don't need to go full speed and for many, more viable for
comfort and running costs to run them slower. But in area's of urban sprawl,
and noise regulations can and will prove an issue in such usage. Which is a
shame but a major consideration today.

But equally, many transport avenues are under utilised and overlooked. Canals
for one were a big thing decades ago and all but now abandoned in many parts
as a means of transporting goods. Which is a shame as sometimes you just don't
need it moved as quick as possible.

------
jkaljundi
Smart. Fly less, kill less nature with CO2, sleep more. Have always loved the
night trains here in Europe.

------
m0zg
Come to think of it, this could take off in the US too. I wouldn't mind taking
a sleeper (to and from) between SF and Seattle. 807mi at 100mph = 8 hours and
change. Pretty nice.

------
novaRom
There are many overnight express trains in Europe. Cozy and not expensive,
enough space for bikes. Warsaw-Moskow, Munich-Bologna, Paris-Tolouse,
Kopenhagen-Hamburg just some examples.

------
gaoshan
Didn't know overnight trains had disappeared. When I lived in Europe as a poor
student from the US I would take night trains every single time I could. I had
an Interrail pass and once everyone was settled down for the night go look for
an empty seating or sleeping area with a door. I could usually find one and
then I would just lay down inside with my feet agains the door, use my pack
for a pillow and go to sleep. I traveled a month like that and never paid for
a hotel.

------
Tepix
I welcome this idea. I look for an opportunity to take an overnight sleeping
train occasionally but usually it fails because there is no connection between
the cities I am interested in. Last time I used an overnight train I arrived
after a good nights sleep in Genoa. Even if the train is slower than a plane,
the fact that you travel while sleeping means you save time.

------
telesilla
I took a first-class sleeper train from Budapest to Amsterdam 20 years ago and
loved every second of it. It's saddened me that it's become too expensive:
something I afforded as a recent graduate at short notice now requires you to
either to shell out a lot of cash or book far ahead, like a tourist? At least,
Austria still offers affordable sleepers. The sound of the train lulling you
to sleep is a wonderful thing.

------
smackfu
I was very excited by the idea of an overnight train in Europe but the reality
was a bit underwhelming. We went from Cologne to Vienna which was roughly from
10 pm to 7 am which wasn’t super convenient timing on either end. Also the
cabins were super claustrophobic for me when the beds were folded down. Fun
once but I would probably fly next time.

------
httpz
I took an overnight train from Paris to Munich. Got on the train from Paris in
the evening. My private stall had three seats with a folding table and a sink.
The seats folds down and you can unfold three beds from the wall. I had a good
sleep, woke up, got some breakfast delivered, took a shower and I was in
Munich.

------
jayalpha
The last sleeper trains in Europe:

"A sleeper is the most civilised, comfortable, and romantic way to travel... "
[https://www.seat61.com/sleepers.htm](https://www.seat61.com/sleepers.htm)

Paris<>Venice sounds tempting.

------
mongol
This will probably amount to nothing. Government injects 50 MSEK to make
carriers schedule night trains. Will people use them? Time will tell. This is
very similar to the same government's initiative to subsidise electric bikes.
Gone after a year.

------
elamje
As good as this sounds in concept, price wins at the end of the day, and while
I lived in Europe RyanAir, SAS & Norwegian were a similar price to trains, but
faster. The exception is when you travel to smaller regions with no major
airport.

~~~
GuB-42
For the same price I actually prefer night train to airlines, by far.

Sure, airlines are faster, but the time to go in and out of the airport,
security checks, boarding, etc... Your one hour flight easily translates into
3-4 uncomfortable hours.

With the train, it is usually downtown to downtown, just hop into the train
and you are done. The journey may last 10 hours, but it is relaxing. Trains
are much more comfortable than planes and sleeping is less of a problem, even
with a standard seat.

With sleeping cars, you have what is essentially a moving hotel room, making
your travel time effectively zero.

------
evmar
As an American with little access to trains, I was excited to try a sleeper
train from Vienna to Poland. But I was disappointed to find that it was pretty
uncomfortable -- lots of stopping and ringing bells throughout the night.

~~~
elamje
I had a similar experience on a sleeper in Sweden. No bells, but stopping and
rocking.

------
duxup
When I visited Europe many years a go I often took overnight trains with the
intent of maximizing time to do things other than travel.

It was a great experience, maybe not the most comfortable, but I thought it
was worth it.

------
danielfoster
It would be great to see more night trains but having taken several before,
I've never really been able to fall asleep. I would love to see technical
improvements to reduce rumbling and promote sleep.

~~~
Vekz
Agree with you. I took a night train from Venice Italy to Paris. The next day
in Paris I had essentially prolonged motion sickness where I felt as if I was
still on the train rocking with the rhytmn of the tracks about to fall out of
the top bunk I had tried to sleep in.

------
dang
Second big train thread in two days:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19548272](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19548272)

------
chx
I once took a sleeper from Budapest to Munich and the problem was the jolt of
the train stopping waking me up. It was OK-ish otherwise. I do not know how
people would sleep through that.

------
MrMorden
The Hokutosei from Tōkyō to Sapporo was a really good way to travel, but it
was discontinued in 2015.

------
dmitriid
In my limited experience trains are both ridiculously expensive and impossible
to find in Europe.

Let’s say I want to travel from Stockholm to Hamburg. It will cost an arm and
a leg. And it will require a ridiculous amount of layovers (5 IIRC, with bus
travel between some trains) _if_ you can a website to actually plan such a
route properly.

It gets even more ridiculous the farther you travel.

~~~
detaro
I just plugged those two cities into the Deutsche Bahn website, and can now
buy a ticket for a train leaving Stockholm in 8 hours (6:25 local time).

2 transfers (although routes exist with only one), 11:37 travel time. Saver
fare still available: 99,90 € (regular would be 225 €). And it's not the only
connection tomorrow.

That said, your point somewhat stands: it really depends on the route if good
options are available, I've also looked at trips that seemed possible but I
couldn't make work at all. Biggest problem is often the lack of overnight
connections/night trains, which mean you're limited to what you can do during
the day unless there's one of the exceptions on your route. Not fun if the
only overnight "connection" means spending 2:30am to 4:45am on some train
station.

~~~
dmitriid
Just plugged it in to SJ.se (Swedish rail). Doesn’t even have Hamburg as a
selection.

So I need to somehow know that Deutsche Bahn ofers the search capability. True
two to three train changes, 90 to 220 euro.

I guess I’ll use bahn.de from now on (and learn some German :) )

~~~
Symbiote
The best option should have one change, since there are direct trains from
Stockholm to Copenhagen, and from Copenhagen to Hamburg (this train goes on
the ferry). I would expect an additional change in Malmoe could reduce the
cost and increase the time.

If you search for "now", it's 22:52, so you may get odd connections as the
journey planner tries to make an overnight journey.

~~~
vram22
>(this train goes on the ferry)

Wow, how does a train go on a ferry? A full, long train with many cars? Then
the ferry would have to be that long too, which seems unlikely. Or is it that
one or a few cars of the train go on each trip of the ferry, and the cars are
all connected back together when back on land?

~~~
detaro
The Denmark-Germany ferries on that route are ~150 m long, and fit a train of
up to 100 m length (or something in that ballpark).

[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:2017-08-22-ICE_TD_Puttga...](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:2017-08-22-ICE_TD_Puttgarden-4150.jpg)

Larger ferries on other routes have multiple rails next to each other, and
long trains are split up across those.

~~~
vram22
>The Denmark-Germany ferries on that route are ~150 m long, and fit a train of
up to 100 m length (or something in that ballpark).

Whew!

>[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:2017-08-22-ICE_TD_Puttga...](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:2017-08-22-ICE_TD_Puttga..).

High-tech.

>Larger ferries on other routes have multiple rails next to each other, and
long trains are split up across those.

Great idea.

~~~
Symbiote
Or low-tech -- the first train ferries like this ran in 1842.

As the Wikipedia article says, there are very few routes left in Europe,
although there used to be a lot.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_ferry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_ferry)

~~~
vram22
Interesting, didn't know. It felt like high-tech to me, anyway, since I had
not seen or heard of train ferries before, although I did know about ferries
that can take cars (automobiles) on board. Been on one such ferry in Goa, and
my parents had been on some while visiting the US and Canada, I forget in
which city.

------
dsign
Oh no!

5 million USD is ridiculously low amount of money for this; I expect that most
of it will go to fund studies and planning, not actual trains. IMHO, it would
be better to invest on research in cleaner airplanes and some influence-giving
Airbus stock.

Also, for the budget I can usually afford on travel, the less time I'm inside
the can the better. Trains are a big no-go.

------
vkaku
This is amazing. I've taken daylong trains between Narvik and Copenhagen.

------
sotothehail
This is a great idea. I wish we had something like this in the states.

~~~
pm24601
There is the auto-train. Washington DC to Florida:
[https://www.amtrak.com/auto-train](https://www.amtrak.com/auto-train)

------
kolla
I live in Sweden and most of the times I try to travel by train there is some
unexpected thing they can't handle like snow, rain, leaves, sunshine so they
are replaced by a buss. I wish trains were reliable.

------
olivermarks
there's only 8 million people in Sweden, most of whom live near Europe in the
south and in Stockholm, so this is relatively small endeavour. Still good
though!

~~~
kryptiskt
There's 10 million of us now!

------
Zash
This is great! I love overnight trains!

------
vladletter
Most of those trains consumes nuclear energy. Nuclear vs Gas? :)

------
Tharkun
I'll believe it when I see it. Sleeper trains have been on the out for a while
now, because they're much cheaper and often much more convenient than high
speed rail. Don't want cheap and good to compete with overpriced and
profitable, do we now?

