
Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up - trevin
http://overit.com/blog/sexism-in-tech
======
danso
I'm disappointed that this post focuses on an incident of groping. Not because
the incident is "not a big deal" or that it's isolated, but because it's the
type of incident that nearly everyone can agree is beyond the pale and should
never be tolerated by society.

Even sexists.

I think the more prevalent problem is the underlying sexism, the institutional
bias, the reluctance to speak up, the fear of being judged "the token" -- the
fact that a man can think it's appropriate to put his hand on a woman's knee
unsolicited is just a blatant, ugly manifestation of the underlying sexism.

I know this post had a little more nuance, but it's hard to come away from it
without the impression of: "Women aren't on speaker panels because they're
afraid of getting molested". Maybe that's the case (and if so, we as a society
have _serious_ issues)...but there's at least an equal problem of women just
not being considered or being searched for. And as that problem persists, then
women continue to become such a minority at these conferences that the
aforementioned creep feels perfectly comfortable with invading a woman's
personal space.

~~~
lisabarone
I think it's all connected.

There are many reasons you don't see women speaking at tech conferences. Some
is because they're passed over as non-members of the boys club. Some is
because they don't want to attend and be part of the environment. I've had far
worse things happen to be at tech shows - there's one I avoid altogether after
being sexually assaulted in a hotel room - but like you said, there's a reason
women don't feel comfortable talking about. i don't want to be the "token"
harassment case. I don't want to become known for that above anything else I
may do. So do I speak up or do I shut up.

That's just as large of an issue as how do I get that creep from putting his
hand on knee. Arguably, it's bigger.

~~~
danso
Undoubtedly it's all connected in a feedback loop. I guess what I'm simply
saying is that the problem of unwanted touching "can be solved" (or at least,
ostracized into obscurity), and yet the underlying sexism can persist -- and,
in one sense, be affirmed ("Hey I'm can't be a sexist, I _never_ would just
touch a random woman) -- and cause the same negative impact: the lack of women
participation in conferences and in the tech field (or rather, society in
general)

------
Hairy_Sandwich
There is nothing in the article (IMO) that is unique to the tech sector. These
complaints could be made of men in general anywhere in any industry or
context. Some guy can put a hand on your knee at the home show too, but not a
lot of men go to those events (I assume, I wouldn't know since I don't go to
them either).

However, there will always be a set of socially retarded people, there will
always be horny people, and there will always be people who posses both
attributes at the same time. There are a lot of socially awkward people in
tech, I don't know what you can do about this problem.

If you have an attractive physique as a woman, and you wear clothes that don't
hide or minimize this fact, then men _will_ notice, and some will _comment_ on
it, and some will even be _inappropriate_ about it. As a remedy the women
should get mad, she should tell them off. However you could even make
inappropriate comments punishable by DEATH. I guarantee that not even the
death penalty will stop inappropriate comments, or some guy putting a hand on
your knee type of stuff. Even if the women wore a burqua, that wouldn't stop
it, some guy would find that hot, "hey baby, what's under the burqua?". I
don't have the answer, I don't think there is an answer. Possibly when these
issues occur the women are reacting politely when they should react angrily so
the offender gets the correct feedback often enough to realize that _he_ is
the problem.

~~~
npfmn
"they should react angrily" That might be part of the solution, but isn't it
important for us to make a proactive effort to do whatever we can to encourage
a professional, non-sexist environment?

You say there will always be horny people, but isn't it our place to make this
a taboo?

None of this may be unique to the tech sector, but aren't we a forward-looking
industry that isn't afraid of changing the world?

------
jrogers65
In any industry dominated by a given gender, there is prejudice against the
opposite gender. People fear what they do not know.

[http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/rss/1056170/New-calls-
end...](http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/rss/1056170/New-calls-end-
discrimination-against-male-childcarers/)

------
papermashea
I have had the misfortune of seeing how very deep this sexism goes- it's not
just sexual harassment that's an issue (though I will say, it's the most
pressing), but also the prejudices women meet in the tech world. It's as if
there are two major discussions about women's roles in tech: women are either
assumed to be underqualified or over glamorized.

Get more women into tech, and then get over having them there.

~~~
coldtea
> _it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue_

How does discern sexual harassment (between adults with no business ties
between them) from flirting?

I ask because I've also seen flirting remakers being conceived as
"harassement".

That "the place was not appropriate" or "it was uncalled for" is not a proper
answer I think. There would be VERY FEW relationships and/or marriages if
people never approached other people out of the blue and in non-appropriate
places (in a conference for example).

~~~
steveklabnik
It's pretty simple: if you're not sure, don't do it.

~~~
coldtea
Really? That's quite a naive view.

Are people (men/women/gay) ever SURE about when to flirt with another person?

By this logic, half of the population would have never been born (which might
have been a good thing, with respect to overpopulation and all, but that's a
different argument).

~~~
steveklabnik
What you're saying is, "I am willing to possibly sexually assault someone in
order to get a date."

You're a bad person.

~~~
coldtea
> _What you're saying is, "I am willing to possibly sexually assault someone
> in order to get a date."_

No. That's the strawman you made out of what I'm saying. Can you please
respond to what I actually said and not put words in my mouth as you please?

What I'm saying is: some people can also consider completely casual flirting
to be a "sexual assault". As in, when you're flirting you're never sure
beforehand if the other part wants your flirt. And in many cases, it takes a
little time to win them over (or fail). It's not like there's a standard
protocol: "OK, you can flirt me now".

And yes, people DO fall in love in tech conferences, or meet possible
partners, as they do in ANY other place, including offices and funerals. So
they _do_ have the right to approach someone else they like there.

> _You're a bad person_

And who are you to tell me that?

Apparently in your mind verbally assaulting someone you disagree with and
telling them they are a "bad person" is perfectly OK?

That's your idea of making the world better by stoping sexism? Introducing
hatr-ism?

------
oh_sigh
Lechers exist in all fields, even in fields where it is agreed upon by
everyone that sexism does not exist, or is at least at some level lower than
general sexism in society as a whole.

Feel free to call them out, but don't impugn the insanely broad field of
"tech" because of some creeps.

------
stevenameyer
The number of comments on this thread stating sexism exists in all areas and
seemly dismiss this as an issue that needs to be addressed in our industry is
very surprising to me.

Just because the problem is not specific to the tech industry doesn't mean we
shouldn't be trying to solve it. If women feel uncomfortable working or
contributing to the industry because of their gender then we are missing out
on possible contributions from a massive section of the population.

Will cases of sexism always exist? Probably, their will always be a bad apple
or two. But we need to work to make these these cases the exception to how the
industry works. We need people to feel safe contributing regardless of who
they are. If you have something to contribute you should be able to, that is
one of the things I personally love about this industry. Just because we can
never fully solve a problem doesn't mean we shouldn't try to minimize it.

~~~
onemorepassword
It's not that it shouldn't be addressed in our industry, but it shouldn't be
addressed as "sexism in tech", because that is an entirely separate issue.

The kind of sexism that is described here occurs just as much in industries
that are 50% women. It's not the cause of the under-representation of women in
tech, and addressing it is unlikely to solve that issue.

On the one hand, the industry should make an additional effort to address the
general social sexism on order to not further alienate women, but the
suggestion that tech is more sexist than other areas is blatantly false, and
leads to a automatic defensive response because it suggests a certain
causality.

It is simply not very constructive to conflate the two issues, no matter how
closely related they are. Sexism in general is too sensitive an issue for
that, and not just for women.

------
jroseattle
The characterization of this as an industry issue is a red herring. This is a
societal issue; the fact we're in the tech industry is simply a commonality.

~~~
RyanMcGreal
It's considerably worse - both more prevalent and less acknowledged - in the
tech industry than elsewhere.

~~~
jroseattle
I would expect you have some data that substantiates that assertion?

------
oh_sigh
I have a hypothesis: When women are represented close to 50% in the military,
there will be none of this so-called sexism in other, unrelated sectors

------
gosukiwi
This post again?

~~~
MichelleRobbins
When it stops being a problem, it will stop being topical.

~~~
oh_sigh
Can you name an industry(at least as broad as "tech" field) which has no
sexual harassment lawsuits, or exceptionally few?

You can tell stories like the one in the blog about _any_ field. Tech is not
special. If there is going to be change, it will have to come from society at
large, and not by fiddling with the dials of a specific field.

~~~
MichelleRobbins
You are absolutely correct. It's everywhere, in every industry. Tech is not
special. But it is our field, our community, and it is incumbent upon us to
change our own community. So you propose sitting on our hands and waiting for
some magical shift in society at large? No thanks. And that's not how change
happens. We _can_ effect change in our own communities - and if enough
communities make change you'll see ripples through society and eventually
society at large may change. You have to start somewhere.

------
superflit
I do think sexism exist, but I think the MAJOR problem is as...ole men. I am
not a full gentleman but let's think: 1) I think some woman attractive. I will
not touch her as first move or even approach or stand too near.

2) There is better ways to extend the conversation instead of inviting to my
'bedroom'.

3) No or other excuses means no, thanks and farewell.

4) conferences are professional places, no place for flirting (they invented
bars for that).

5) Ring on the finger? SHE is NOT interested.

Somehow some men think that if the woman is NOT interested she has be 'wrong'
or deserve more 'strong' signals. I support more woman at the conferences and
I wish more woman take some stand at this cases and say it loud: 'TAKE OUT
YOUR FILTHY HANDS from me' Saying that loud will teach a great lesson and
avoid some posts. The main problem is not sexism is lack of politeness and
manners.

~~~
npfmn
Why is it the responsibility of women to take the stand? Isn't it the
responsibility of the people making unprofessional advances to stop and silent
bystanders to tell them so? Why is a professional conference ever even thought
of as a venue for making advances?

I don't understand why you think this is not sexism.

~~~
chc
> _Isn't it the responsibility of the people making unprofessional advances to
> stop_

Well, yes, but if your plan to stop sexism is something along the lines of
"Wait for jerks to suddenly become good people," you're doing a disservice to
their victims.

> _and silent bystanders to tell them so_

I don't feel like it is my business to step in and speak for a woman who has
not implicitly or explicitly asked me to do so. That seems like a really
degrading viewpoint. If she clearly wants the guy to go away and he won't,
yes, go up and help her. But the idea that it's my job to run around policing
women's sexuality is just antediluvian.

~~~
npfmn
I don't see why it's degrading for a victim to have someone else (publicly or
privately) tell their agressor to stop.

~~~
chc
The assumption of woman as victim when there's no indication that she sees it
that way is what's degrading. Can you imagine if anytime you were talking to a
member of your preferred sex, somebody came running up and yelled to the
person you were talking to, "Hey, back off, buddy"?

~~~
npfmn
There's a difference between talking and awkward, unwanted, sexist advances.
If you can't tell the difference, then you're right, you probably shouldn't
tell anyone off. But just because the victim doesn't say something doesn't
mean they don't want something to be said.

~~~
chc
Sure, if a guy walks up to a chick and sticks his hand down her pants, that's
one thing, because he's clearly out of control. But the example given in the
OP was something like "Would you like to have a drink?" I don't think I would
be inclined to come charging to the rescue if I saw that. I don't like that
women have to deal with unwelcome advances, but I wouldn't feel right
rejecting him for her.

