
Ask HN: Has anybody here ever successfully started a videogame company? - pawn
I think most of the honest people here 30 or younger will say they got into programming in some part due to videogames.  These days, it seems more viable than it used to, with the various routes for self-publishing available through the Xbox Live marketplace and the app markets.<p>After seven years of doing much less interesting varieties of programming at work while making silly JS games at home - my urge to actually make videogames is stronger now than ever.  So, I took action.  I downloaded the XNA Toolkit and banged out a basic pong clone in an hour to start off with and moved forward from there.  Coincidentally I happen to be friends with an amazing musician who was more than happy to provide me with music and a great artist to provide me with graphics.  Fast forward to today and I've got a game that I can feasibly see myself releasing this week.<p>I want to keep doing this and would love if I could start doing it full time; it's been a blast.  I'd like to do this full time but like most people, I'm not independently wealthy quite yet.  I still have to feed myself.  So, all of that is to say, has anyone here tackled the same endeavor and succeeded?  Are there people who fund games other than the big successful videogame companies perpetuating themselves or does everyone find success on the side then keep going?  Certain platforms sell better than others (I've heard Steam's much better than the Xbox 360 market)?  Any hurdles to watch out for?
======
davidsiems
I've worked for a few video game 'startups' that tanked or are in the process
of tanking. Here are some pitfalls to avoid:

* Make sure you focus on the company aspect of things. Why are you making games? If the answer isn't 'to make money' you're doing it wrong - make them as a hobby instead. Starting a video game company because you have great game ideas, or because making games is something you love to do is a bad, bad idea. The reason for this is that at the end of the day, if you don't focus on the financial aspect of things, your company.will.fail. Most game companies fail because they're living month to month off of publisher's paychecks without trying to establish revenue streams of their own (other than royalties).

* Speaking of royalties. If you're getting funding through a video game publisher, make sure you understand how the payout will happen, how your advance is being payed off, etc. You probably won't have much negotiating power here, and this isn't really a route I'd recommend unless you _really_ need the funding.

* Start small, don't try to make a game engine right out of the gate. Put something simple together and iterate on it. If it turns out you're making a lot of the same type of game over and over, then think about abstracting an engine out of it.

* Reconcile the awesome game that's in your head, with the awesome game you can make given the time and resources available. Don't overcommit, you'll just end up implicitly cutting features instead of explicitly cutting them, and the game will suffer.

* Don't forget about the importance of marketing and timing. Great games fail _all the time_ because they weren't marketed well, or because they released and then got buried by the latest AAA or hyped up title.

------
eabandit
A friend and I quit our jobs to start a mobile game company. The toughest
things are we have to work like crazy to meet self-imposed deadlines and deal
with a bunch of non-programming related issues like marketing and
distribution.

Mobile games are the easiest to get into (since you can rely on the app
distribution models from Apple, Google, and Microsoft) and you don't need to
think too much about cramming your software into a box.

Our game is called Bouncy Mouse, and we're about to release our first major
update with new content and new game modes. We've got over 1 million downloads
on Android, but fewer on iOS since discoverability on iTunes is difficult due
to major companies buying their way into the top spots through ads and
promotions. Competing on iOS is hard primarily due to this reason, though
Apple did feature us for a week or two, which was great.

The classic gaming market is still huge and healthy. I would like to branch
out into that market once we have some more resources (e.g. once we're larger
than two people and have a little cash to finance bigger budget art, music,
design, etc.)

You can check out our website here. :) <http://www.bouncymousegame.com/>

~~~
pawn
So did you guys save a bunch of money before quitting and are hoping it
succeeds or do you have outside funding?

Also, what avenues of marketing are you using?

~~~
eabandit
We saved some money before quitting. We're staying with friends (paying rent)
to save costs on housing. But we live in SF, so it's still pretty expensive.
In the Mission, you can get tacos for cheap, and, hey, they're pretty good. :)

For marketing – not much. Relying on blogs, forums, word of mouth, featured
promotions in the App Store and in Android Market (and in Windows Phone 7). We
bought a few ads, but they weren't super effective. Focusing on marketing is
something we will do for our next game, but since we're strapped for cash it's
hard to compete with the social farming gaming behemoths in terms of climbing
the ranks through advertising.

------
agavin
I and my partner started Naught Dog, Inc. from scratch (some various articles
I've written on this here <http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/video-games/>). We
went from 2 (us) to well over 100 employees. Building from bigger and bigger
game one at a time. But we started in a much easier era (the 80s).

~~~
pawn
I'd be interested to know your take on what made the 80s an easier era to
start in. Is it mainly that the field is more competitive now than it used to
be, or are there other factors as well?

~~~
agavin
A number of factors. Games were much smaller then and a competitive game could
be done in 1-2 years by 2-4 people. The budgets were usually in the 5 digits.
This made it much easier to do if you knew how. On the flip side, far fewer
people had any programming expertise.

Now, it's possible to do something similar on the web, or with a cheap mobile
game, but in console gaming (PS3, 360 etc) the games all run in the 8 digits
(over $10,000,000!) and involve big teams, often over 100 people.

------
bennywild
I'm a video game producer that has published on basically every modern
platform. The best advice I can give is to laser-focus on your core mechanic,
always asking yourself "Does this add to the fun?" Everything else follows
from that.

Different platforms have different customers, demand different games, and have
different challenges. For a small project, I highly suggest using a
sophisticated and cheap multiplatform middleware engine like Unity3D. It
allows you to quickly and easily iterate without worrying about coding new
technology.

If you are looking for funding on a small project, I suggest something like
Kickstarter. Heads up, unless your project has a sophisticated online
component the biggest money sink is going to be your art. If you can a) get
users to generate the assets, b) generate the assets programmatically, or c)
use an aesthetic that revels in its own lo-fi chic you will have cut your
costs dramatically.

The biggest hurdle will be your own enthusiasm. For a small project, keep the
scope small. Check out flOw and World Of Goo to get an idea of what I mean by
"small."

The best way to find something that is both new and fun is to experiment. Come
up with wacky ideas for mechanics and build really ugly prototypes. When you
have an ugly piece of unstable software that manages to enthrall its players
despite itself THAT'S when you move forward.

~~~
Roritharr
I'd like to contact you to talk about business, could you send me some contact
info via the info in my profile?

------
bilbo0s
This is a bit off-topic, but only because some of the comments made here are
making me wonder about Unity3D.

A while ago, I kept hearing a lot about Unity3D while talking with teams
around the DC-NY area. So I looked into it, and made a small game mayself,
just research - non-commercial, to see if it was as useful as everyone
claimed. Everything they said was true, I was able to get a simple game done
in a weekend. BUT, that was without leaderboards, or even scoring, or social
tie-ins or ANYTHING other than the simple mechanic and even simpler graphics.

Haven't touched it since...

I would be curious to know, from anyone who uses Unity to make real games, how
long does it take you to put out a game with Unity? And once you are using
it...isn't it a little difficult to switch to something else if you want to
produce a larger project? Or does it work fine for larger projects as well?

Basically just wondering what are people's impressions of using Unity?

~~~
Roritharr
I've closely followed the development and rise of Unity3D for the last four
years and now i'm planning to do ALL my future 3D related projects with it,
because it streamlines and simplifies the whole cross platform(PC, MAC, iOS,
Android...) development process. There are of course drawbacks.

It is not that convenient to work with larger teams on the same project and
documentation on how to do that is sparse.

It has been done however, even EA has adopted the engine for a few projects
(Tiger Woods Online) and there are whole MMOs built with it.

As more and more larger companys start to use it, the focus of the developers
behind Unity will shift to all those Team issues.

The pricing and license agreement is VERY competitive and they are having
sales every few month.

Qualcomm even released their Augmented Reality Platform as a Unity Package
which I currently use to do some projects with.

Overall i think its the best middleware package for indies and mid-size
companys today.

------
ja27
I have a friend with an XNA community game in the store. He's so disgusted
with the garbage that goes on to get games to rank in the store that I think
he's pretty much given up. I don't see that as a viable option to make money
unless you do a lot of promotion work outside the store. It could still be a
nice showcase of your work though.

I met someone this weekend that works for a small game studio that's exiting
the Wii market. He said it's just becoming impossible unless you're one of the
big guys. They've already exited XBox and PS3 so Wii was the last console left
for them. They're now mostly targeting PC and Mac.

Steam certainly makes it easier to sell an indie game right now. Notch (of
Minecraft fame) has a breakdown on why they don't use it though:
<http://notch.tumblr.com/post/9550850116/why-no-steam-notch>

Mobile seems easy to break into but it's a crowded market. You've got big
budget games crushing you from above and a flood of crappy clones on the low
end. I'm still awefully tempted and I'm trying to pull together a couple
mobile game concepts myself.

------
dgallagher
I've been a fan of Llamasoft for years. They're an indie shop of two coders,
releasing games since the early-1980's. More recently they created Neon, the
music light-synth on the Xbox 360, Space Giraffe on XBLA, Gridrunner
Revolution on Windows, and are currently making iOS games (GoatUp, Deflex,
Minotron: 2112, and Minotaur Rescue).

They were not pleased with XBLA. Their game, Space Giraffe, got hammered by a
particularly bad reviewer (employed at the official Xbox Mag, no less). The
game is actually quite good, albeit extremely hard, and has been praised by
the creator of Braid. Microsoft did't seem to care about them at all (at least
that's what I think happened), so they went elsewhere.

What they've done is focused on a niche. Most of Llamasoft's games are mash-
ups of games from the 1980's, usually with lots of crazy graphical effects,
and lots of goats, sheep, llama's, oxen, and various other beasties. Gameplay
design is among the best I've ever experienced in twitch-based games. There's
a loyal following of customers who love their games and support them, helping
Llamasoft sustain themselves.

They're not super-rich, but have been chugging along for a while. I think
they're excited about iOS because they're indie, and it's very easy for them
to release games on it. Marketing and getting the word out is definitely their
biggest challenge. Currently, it seems their goal is to release a new iOS game
every 2-3 months, and build up a catalog of games. Once one of them is a hit,
it'll bring in more customers, who will be interested in their back-catelog.

GoatUp, which just released to great reviews, might be that ticket (check it
out: <http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/goatup/id462286820?mt=8>).

You can always ask them directly about their experiences. They've been on
XBLA, Steam, iTunes, and a lot of other platforms in the past. Sign up at
www.yakyak.org, and ask Yak or gilesgoat a question.

~~~
zwp
I apologize for the slightly tangential response but your post merits more
than a POU (Plain Old Upvote).

30 years ago a C64 was My First Computer, a birthday present. Llamasoft's
Attack of the Mutant Camels was my first game, swiftly followed by the
insanely fast Gridrunner.

I cut my teeth on Commodore v2 BASIC and 6502 assembler. I turned down an
early teens New Year's party (girls and everything...) to hack on an assembler
monitor from Y64 magazine.

And I don't regret it.

Recognizing by chance something better in a local computer store I bought a
copy of the Zeus assembler. The proprietor warned me "You know this isn't a
game, right?".

I welded dodgy hardware into the underpowered expansion port, using telco
engineer Dad's overpowered soldering gear. Despite the cost of the thing,
nobody questioned that I might break it. A gift truly given.

I still have my copy of the C64 Programmer's Reference Guide (on the shelf
behind me, next to Dad's copy of the KDF9 Algol Reference). I still have the
6502 opcodes in my head (LDA $A9). I'm saddened by the fact that I stupidly
gave away my C64 many years ago. I'd love to see again the awful software that
I wrote (transliterated from "Numerical Recipes") to help me with my high
school physics homework :)

And I'd really like to see some pro code from that time.

> Sign up at www.yakyak.org

Done! Hard to quantify how much effect these guys' work has had on my life but
it's certainly non-negligible. Hack on :)

/now playing: Rat's Monty Mole theme tune

~~~
dgallagher
That's an awesome story, you should definitely post it on YakYak. :)

Oh, and check out some of their new stuff I mentioned. Especially the iOS
stuff as it's modeled after many games from the C64-era (you'll like them I
bet): <http://minotaurproject.co.uk/Minotaur/minotaurprj.php>

------
JabavuAdams
What is success? Game companies are easy to start and frequent to close down.

Recommendation: Contract iPhone development or Android development. Get a
decent but minimal app in the App Store using Unity or Cocos2d, and recruiters
/ devs will be falling over themselves to hire you.

Consoles are a really crappy market. The CEO of the console company I used to
work for really wanted to get into mobile. That was before the company tanked
due to publisher shenanigans.

~~~
pawn
My definition of success is to work on doing what I like full time while
keeping the bills paid. Lots of people succeed in this. My hope is that a game
company is a feasible route towards this goal.

------
Joeboy
I'm surprised by the "30 or younger" criterion. When I started programming in
the '80s I found writing games a much more accessible, profitable and
rockstarish idea than I do now (although I never actually wrote anything
marketable). Maybe that's about me rather than the market though.

~~~
pawn
I was being a bit conservative with my estimate, partially due to the
environment I currently work in. I work in a pretty large IT shop where a
shocking number of (older) adults don't play videogames at all and have never
been interested in them. COBOL isn't dead here, if you can believe that.

------
alex3t
Yes, there are many opportunities for you as indie developer. first is app
store ofcource, but please read first stories from iphonedevsdk.com/forum
business section about 6 months development and more then $5000 spending and
$100 profit at end. Second is flash games market, you can get up to $20k per
game from sponsors if you are experienced game developer or about $500 if you
are unknown. Third is android market, same as ios market but less
money(successful game apps more ads oriented then apps in apple marketplace)

~~~
alex3t
Forget about desktop. Its really hard make money if you are novice. Start from
from mobile(cocos2d as already suggested is good helper in your way)

------
koopajah
Recently there was a video of indie game developpers that were living from
their own games. You can see the video here :
[http://casualconnect.org/lectures/indie/diy-indie-game-
dev-f...](http://casualconnect.org/lectures/indie/diy-indie-game-dev-from-
napkin-to-profitability-birkett-rogula-neville-baxter/)

I think there are more and more one/three people company making indie games
and living off it partly from Steam and iPhone development. I hope you will be
successful in your projects!

~~~
pawn
Thanks for the link and the encouragement!

------
gormlai
I have worked in the games industry all my life, and also had my own game
company. I am starting to think the industry is seriously broken in it's
current form.

The main reason is that it is such a hit driven industry, which means that
most companies live from hit to hit, until the moment they have a failure. At
that point, most companies close down, as they can't afford a new production
and may not be lucky enough to get a publisher deal early on.

The problem is that it is hit driven industry, and this is true no matter if
you make AAA games like Gears of War or Halo, or if you make small iphone
games or middle-sized games on Steam or XBLA. The sales numbers drop sharply
as you move away from the top selling games and it is extremely hard to stay
in the top for very long.

Publishers are essentially the VCs of the games industry, and have enough
money to spread their risk, as they know 80% of their projects will fail.

Another problem with game production, is that you don't really need that many
people early on, when you are still figuring out what game you are making.
Then slowly as you enter production, you ramp up the time. This is also the
same reason, that so many people are often laid off after a game comes out.
There is no longer a need for all those people in the company.

What I think really needs to happen, is for games companies to become more
like movie production companies, where a team is assembled as needed and can
be dispersed with no hard feelings after the production. The production of a
game, also becomes a much more measured risk this way.

------
Corvinex
I started a studio to develop video games. Its definitely not hard to get into
at all. You just need the passion to complete a full game then release. The
biggest thing to decide is which market you will choose, because some are
better than others. I wouldn't choose the console market as the indie games on
there struggle to get decent revenue. I love the mobile development choice
because when your meeting new people and friends you can whip out your phone
and show them on the spot. Its part of the reward of releasing a game.

When you release a game immediately start working on either promotion,
features to improve the current game, or your next game. Do not do what I did
and sit around looking over all of the numbers, that will disappoint you.
Start thinking about the next game you can develop and expand upon what you
learned from the previous project.

Once the feedback and numbers start coming in for the released game start
tweaking it and release updates every other week until you are happy with the
numbers and players stop requesting changes.

------
marmex
Don't count on your first product being a success.

Have reserves to handle a few less-than-break-even projects.

Have more than one idea.

Start simple.

Remember that you have to release a product every 2 months to make a living at
mobile.

Never go into debt and your company can survive forever, even if you don't
make a dime.

Make a code base you can reuse. Know who is going to buy your product.

Don't underprice.

Make sure your contracts always handle things like your publisher going out-
of-business.

Only make products you believe in.

Don't finalize your company name / product name until after you have
successfully registered the web domain.

Keep your fans talking with forums.

"Lore" is a super cheap way to make your game more interesting.

Be extra kind to the folks who aren't getting paid... yet.

Don't burn bridges... you never know.

What is hot today will be dead tomorrow, no exceptions.

Be sure to have a bloody good screenshot or nobody will buy it.

Find "movements", join them, take them over, make them yours.

Always innovate, never follow.

Notice targets of opportunity.

Polish, polish, polish.

Eventually, you have to ship or die.

Somebody has to be "the last word".

Better yet, don't do it.

------
vilya
I haven't started a videogame company, but I did look into it seriously at one
point. What stopped me was the financials: it looked like I would have needed
a fairly sizable hit (by the standards of the time: before the iPhone and
AppStore) in order to cover my costs. The picture has changed quite a bit
since then but my advice would still be to have a good think about the money
before you take any irrevocable decisions.

In particular, figure out how many sales you'd need to cover your costs; then
do some market size estimates to figure out whether it's realistic to hope for
that many sales. Don't forget about cash-flow either because it may take a
while for your game to start selling, sales may tail off quicker than you
anticipate, etc. Use that info to help decide whether it's a risk you should
take.

Good luck!

------
RobLach
I personally know plenty of indie game successes so it's definitely doable.

Generally:

* Keep things small and focused.

* Make games, not game engines.

* Keep control of your revenue streams early on. Sell the game yourself and consider platforms such as Steam or XBLA bonuses. If you can't sustain yourself without those platforms you probably won't make it. Use that extra revenue for expansion of your studio or your ambition.

* Marketing and PR should be a primary focus, alongside game development.

* Scope scope scope. If you're first product is an MMO you'll fail. If you think your first few products will be able to compete with anything on a store shelf you'll fail. A good game with personality is not dependent on your underlying tech nor does it require novels of content. That's why many of the successful indies start with 2D games drenched with style. A good game is a good game.

------
kin
Definitely consider Minecraft an exception although don't lose hope or
anything, just be aware. Also, aiming for a AAA title requires a lot of
manpower and time, games like these works similarly to big budget movies. A
buddy of mine has connections in Sand Hill Road that actually funded some of
his game projects and because XBL isn't that great, I hate to say a pretty
good indie game didn't do so well. Really, it all depends on what you're
shooting for but if you'd like advice on where to go, go mobile or go casual
web (Facebook, you'd be surprised what people pay for these). There are tons
of people that have been living off of social and mobile games during their
peaks. With good marketing and a little lucky your game may end up well! Good
luck!

------
reinier
There is a great (indi/student) game community in The Netherlands!

First company that comes to mind: <http://www.vlambeer.com/> (they created
super crate box; a free game) Check out their talk on it:
<http://vimeo.com/29423887>

------
gubester
My advice -- just started doing this myself --

\- don't overscope

\- don't limit yourself to a platform (language, console/pc/mobile)

\- don't be afraid to aggressively cut features

\- don't ever think that you really know what will work

\- do try things (lots of things)

\- do make a great game

\- do spend time studying games that sell on your platforms (business
development)

\- do write terrible code (if you're someone who knows the difference)

\- do it fast

\- do things that keep your morale up

------
kstenerud
The biggest hurdle is awareness. You need to market the shit out of your
product or else no amount of spit & polish will save you from obscurity and
dismal sales.

Most devs and artists hate marketing, but it's actually THE most important
part of your business. If people don't know about you, they can't buy from
you.

~~~
pawn
Have you successfully marketed a game? If so, what were some things that you
did to market it? I see games in magazines and websites, and usually it's the
AAA companies that get easy marketing no matter what they do, but often times
when a small guy gets popular, I'm left wondering how he was discovered when a
million others weren't.

~~~
_delirium
In the indie scene, doing well in a competition like Indiecade can provide a
pretty big boost. That's mainly for a certain kind of game, though, more or
less "one that other indie developers will find interesting". Some sort of
innovative mechanic or new take on a genre is probably the most common route
on that. If you do have that style of game, any other way of meeting other
devs (forums, game jams, etc.) can also help spread the word; there are few
things devs like more than talking about other cool games they recently heard
about, and the more people who know about it, the more likely it is to get
reviews / blogged about / etc.

That's another angle to go for directly, though; try to find some blogs
covering areas where your game seems relevant, and see if they're interested
in reviewing it.

------
sliverstorm
Steam's market is quite good. To be in Steam's marketplace is probably a very
good thing. But, the barriers to entry are likely a lot higher than the Xbox
360 market. Just judging from what and who I've seen on Steam's store, I
wouldn't aim to be there right out of the gate.

~~~
davidsiems
Higher than the Xbox360 indie market, maybe. Definitely not the main XBLA
store though.

From what I've read it's pretty easy to get up on Steam. Terraria and Magicka
are good examples of games from unknown teams making it big. I think Terraria
was put together in something like 4 months, made a couple million dollars
too.

------
bazookaBen
what I do when exploring any game concept is to quickly prototype a playable
version, and try to "find the fun" in the game. Once a certain fun level is
reached, iterate, and build the game around that.

to see if people actually want to play the game, you need to test the waters.
Ghetto-like testing (Zynga's much publicized way of using FB game ads to gauge
user interest ) is one option.

Fun = addicting game mechanic.

------
vaksel
Notch created minecraft...although that's probably an exception to the rule.

maybe try getting your game into the next humble bundle to get more exposure

------
simonsarris
I'm currently creating an HTML5 Canvas games site in my spare time. So "not
yet", but someday, depending on your definition of success!

~~~
pawn
My definition of success is to work on doing what I like full time while
keeping the bills paid. That's my goal.

I hope things work out for you. Keep us posted!

