
Families earning $117,000 now qualify as “low income” in California's Bay Area - uptown
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/families-earning-117000-now-qualify-as-low-income-in-californias-bay-area/
======
ggreer
The data comes from the Housing and Urban Development's FY 2018 Income Limits
Documentation System, and is for a family of four.[1] The HUD explains their
reasoning here[2]. Basically, it's all about housing costs.

As a side note: I really wish news articles would link to the data instead of
forcing me to go on an expedition.

1\.
[https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il/il2018/2018summar...](https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il/il2018/2018summary.odn?STATES=6.0&INPUTNAME=METRO41860MM7360*0604199999%2BMarin+County&statelist=&stname=California&wherefrom=%24wherefrom%24&statefp=06&year=2018&ne_flag=&selection_type=county&incpath=%24incpath%24&data=2018&SubmitButton=View+County+Calculations)

2\.
[https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il/il2018/2018ILCalc...](https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il/il2018/2018ILCalc3080.odn?inputname=Marin+County&area_id=METRO41860MM7360&fips=0604199999&type=county&year=2018&yy=18&stname=California&stusps=CA&statefp=06&ACS_Survey=%24ACS_Survey%24&State_Count=%24State_Count%24&areaname=San+Francisco%2C+CA+HUD+Metro+FMR+Area&incpath=%24incpath%24&level=80)

~~~
spyckie2
If you read through the documentation, you'll see that they actually have a
value of 145k as a calculation of the low income limit, but they are only
allowed to grow the cap by 11.5% from last year, which was at 105k.

This doesn't really tell you much about family incomes or the state of poverty
in SF, it just tells you that housing prices are really high in SF (which we
all know).

Funny enough though, the median family income is at 118k and the income limit
is at 117k, which means that roughly 50% of families living in SF qualifies
for the low income limit for HUD.

~~~
sjg007
Wow.

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bocklund
One thing that seems strange to me is that the cost of living is high, but so
many things we buy are priced the same. No matter how high cost of living is,
a MacBook Pro starts at the same price whether you’re making a measly 100k in
the Bay or 25k in Podunk, Alabama. Out of state college tuition is the same
price no matter which state you come from.

Even if you have “low income” locally, there’s still so much more opportunity
to be captured than others outside city bubbles.

~~~
IAmGraydon
That’s one major advantage of living in an area with high cost of living.
National products are priced the same everywhere, making them much cheaper
when measuring the price as a percentage of total income. Take your MacBook
example and apply it to big ticket items like cars and vacations and you can
really see how living in these areas makes a lot of things more affordable.

~~~
nightski
This may be true if you are tied to the average income of an area. But good
software engineers generally are not. I am able to enjoy a SV level of income
in a much lower cost of living area.

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UperSpaceGuru
I wish this didn't bother me so much, but ever since the Silicon Valley
Episode where Big Head says: _" Jesus! Why is it so expensive here? Look at
this place, it's a shithole."_, I can't seem to find a good answer to this
question...

I certainly count myself fortunate to be able to afford to live here with my
family. But I can't see the value of moving people to the area (as I was
contemplating moving team members from out of state here). Even at six figure
salaries they'd have to share an apartment to be able to save anything at all.

\- Better weather, but LA is arguably nicer & less expensive.

\- Better community of techies who somehow inspire you to do better? After
being here for a year and attending meetups and community event, I know for a
fact that's not true. Despite the density of people here, people are
surprisingly disconnected, chance encounters are rare at best. Most of the
interactions seem shallow at best and conversations often seem transactional.

\- Better job prospects for devs? I guess for a software engineer it'd come
down to better job prospects, but to be honest, it's not like the rest of
America sucks for software jobs.

\- Better social life? This may be availability bias as I am not single and
live in the 'burbs with my family, but every single person I know seems pretty
miserable & isolated. A couple of them actually moved out of the area because
of the poor quality of human interaction/dating. It seems everyone works all
the time. (Which works great for me as I'm on the employing side).

\+ If you run a tech company & have enough money to move here and hire from
the local talent pool, it's a decent proposition.

\+ Relative to other places in the country it's pretty diverse and progressive

Some might say access to VCs and funding etc, but that seems to take some
pretty serious effort and it might be a better idea to make the hike up from
Gilroy or Hollister and not spend a 6 figures in rent for the privilege.

I think the area is beginning to emulate the inequalities that I saw growing
up in a 3rd world country. The amount of homeless working people in the area
is mind boggling. It seems like most people in the area are just too busy/too
successful to do much about it (I include myself in this group unfortunately).
California has been having an exodus of residents, but mainly middle class
down. I don't see how this is sustainable long term.

*[https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_script...](https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=silicon-valley-2014&episode=s01e01)

~~~
sidlls
> it's not like the rest of America sucks for software jobs.

Yes, it does suck. Outside of major population centers where
software/technology startups have been on the rise software work is terrible.
It's not poorly compensated, but it's still on par with any other typical
office job: mostly dead-end, shabby benefits, terrible work/life balance, and
management who are euphemistically described best as marginally competent.

I will note that the stereotypical perks of software in the Bay Area seem to
be declining: wages certainly aren't rising as much as they were even a few
years ago, if at all.

~~~
smrtinsert
Laugable claim. Here in DMV all job inquiries I get brag about 3 or more wfh.
I grill or fry something up for dinner regularly. Only the SV bubble tries to
get you to eat all meals with them and never leave the office because
"passion" or similar hand wavy bullshit.

~~~
Bahamut
As someone who used to work in tech in DC who relocated to the Bay Area, pay
in the DMV is really bad for a tech hub. I got a near 100% raise just by
leaving for the Valley, and at all but one of the companies I've worked for
here, almost everyone is out the office before 6, if not before 5 (or even
earlier - I'll sometimes leave the office between 2:30 and 3:30 & nobody
blinks an eye). One of my own teammates works from home anywhere from 2 days a
week to the whole week from home.

There's this myth that all companies here are 12+ hour a day grinders, but
while there are some startups like that, there are a lot of companies here
that advertise work-life balance being an important thing.

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anikdas
And here I am earning $1200/mo (3 year dev xp) and considered one of the
highest paid! Also living a pretty comfortable life (own house/car/heated
water/AC).

It's pretty strange how geography affects living standard!

~~~
coryfklein
EDIT: the below is a stream of consciousness invoked by the parent comment,
not an attempt to comment on said parent's specific situation.

If I asked every person I know, "What is a comfortable life?" I don't think a
single person would cite "heated water". In my circles that's as given as the
air I breathe.

Comments like this startle me to the reality of the insulated life I live.
Similar to the 30 minutes I spent on GiveWell the other day realizing how much
I take for granted things like, say, the fact that I am not at risk of dying
from malaria. And yet I still struggle between the idea of buying an even
bigger house vs saving the lives of hundreds of children.

Whenever I recognize this mismatch between the stark reality of life on earth
and my own uncaring attitude about others, I wish there was a YouTube channel
I could watch that was designed to evoke sympathy in me for those less
fortunate. Like maybe just documentaries about the challenges of regular life
outside my bubble?

Sympathy as as Service anyone?

~~~
kaizendc
I had that same realization, that watching documentaries about the world could
increase both my compassion and my gratitude.

I've found this channel to be helpful towards that end:
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW39zufHfsuGgpLviKh297Q](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW39zufHfsuGgpLviKh297Q)

DW Documentaries.

~~~
coryfklein
Thank you!

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everdev
You can find affordable food, gas, insurance, etc. in the Bay Area. Sure,
there are $20 burgers and $10 beers, but you don't need to consume them as the
food in grocery stores is within a few % of most other areas of the country.

As far as I can tell, the main driver of family expenses in mortgage/rent and
keeping up with the Jones' (but I don't know if the last is a uniquely Bay
Area problem). Unfortunately, many families reach for the max mortgage someone
will lend them, which keeps expenses and housing prices going up. If you pay
$50k/year ($4k/month) on a $850k mortgage and $30k/year in taxes, it's easy to
see how $120k/year is low-income. The remaining $40k divided by 4 people =
$833/month per person for food, clothes, transportation, insurance, etc. Not
poverty, but not high living either.

I know many families in the area that complain about the high cost of living
yet frequently carry debt for that new car, or a credit card balance they
can't afford. It's a self-generated problem that keeps going.

~~~
loteck
The price of housing is a self-generated problem?

~~~
TangoTrotFox
The price of housing is a product of too many people wanting to live in too
small an area. The huge salaries, probably driven in part by venture capital
mardi gras, also certainly work to keep driving up prices. If somebody's
willing to pay $4k a month for a modest place, then there will certainly be
people willing to charge $4k a month for a modest place!

~~~
Karrot_Kream
In the case of the Bay Area, it's the case of building commercially zoned
areas without residential units which can bear the capacity of the available
jobs. Palo Alto is the poster child for having many more jobs than residential
units.

~~~
briandear
Is that true for PA? Seems like the whole town is nothing but neighborhoods. I
suppose if you include Stanford in that calculation you could be right.

~~~
Karrot_Kream
Problem is, most of PA is single-family homes, with strict height limits. This
makes density artificially low (i.e. the infamous American "sprawl")

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Pmop
Unbelievable.

That's a truck load of money from my point of view as i'm living of 1200
usd/year (initiating researcher grant) with government subsided food.

~~~
wishinghand
Even with your food taken care of, how do you survive on $100/month? Is your
housing subsidized too?

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paul7986
What is the median income for a Sr Front End Developer and or a Sr UI/UX
Designer/Developer in the Bay Area now. Someone with 7 or more years of
experience... is it 250k?

~~~
owyn
It's hard to say exactly and varies widely but I'd guess something like
$120-160k range for a senior person even at most places that aren't the top 5.
Stats I found say median pay is closer to $105k though (in 2017). Front-
end/UI/UX seems to be in pretty high demand, so there aren't as many senior
people to be found and most places that I've seen have been happy to hire
junior people.

Median pay at Facebook is $240k. Median pay at Twitter is $160k. That would be
all-in with stock etc.

~~~
gnarcoregrizz
120-160k sounds low for a senior role. kids out of college get offered 120k
now for entry level roles.

~~~
Bahamut
Only if they're working for one of the big tech companies - they almost
certainly won't be making that much at a startup out of college unless they
happen to be uncommonly good at negotiating/have good experience from
internships.

$160k is low for a true senior though. I have been making $160k base at a
startup since 2.5 years into my career, and basically negotiations have been
name-your-price for me.

I can confirm first hand that the big tech companies pay a lot for senior
engineers though - if you're any good, you can hit $250k+ pretty fast
(disclaimer: I work in a FAANG currently).

~~~
apexalpha
Bit Off-topic: shouldn't it be FAAMG? Or did we collectively kick Microsoft,
the global OS and Office software supplier, out of the cool kids club and
replace it with Netflix, a video website?

~~~
owyn
Microsoft doesn’t have much impact in the SF area. It has been around a long
time before the current rent/wage inflation bubble and is based in the Seattle
area which is much cheaper... Netflix is legendary for paying some of the
highest salaries in the bay areas.

I’ll tack this on since I didn’t think of mentioning it earlier and it’s
relevant to the original post... on the low end of that range assume 10k/month
in gross wages, subtract 40% in tax and another 3k in rent for a 1br apt and
another 1k for car + insurance + parking + Internet + phone etc. Now you’re at
about 2k left over in net income monthly.

This is an expensive area. Don’t just look at the gross salary, I’m not
surprised that 117k is about the minimum you would want today. I don’t know
how any non tech people can afford to move here and I understand the squeeze
on people who are making much less. It doesn’t seem sustainable.

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sjg007
Yeah it’s crazy. That qualifies you for housing assistance... too bad house
prices are basically above the max assistance thresholds. At a minimum you
need down payment assistance. You really need two professional incomes to make
any headway.

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nodesocket
I recently fled San Francisco (was downtown) to Nashville Tennessee and could
not be happier. I will try to stay neutral politically, but I also think it is
somewhat ironic the most liberal city in the US also has the highest income
"inequality", homelessness, drug, and petty crime problem in the US. It all
wreaks of hypocrisy and downright poor fiscal judgement to me. I have friends
that are making $160,000 a year (single no families) and not saving anything.
That is absurd. Not to mention being a single self-employed LLC company in
California the taxes are anti-business and constraining. California
dream'in... Ehh no thanks for me anymore.

~~~
durkie
How are they not saving anything? $160k, so your take home is roughly $110k?
They're spending $9000 a month just to live in the Bay area?

~~~
didip
SF apartment price is a special kind of crazy. $5k for a 1 bedroom apartment
per month.

~~~
mrgordon
This is not an accurate price. A smart renter with a little patience would pay
more like $2000-3000 unless they needed a brand new condo with a gym and a
doorman.

~~~
ummonk
Brand new apartments actually often offer low rents to fill all the vacancies.
E.g. the artsy new apartment in the Dogpatch was going for well under 3k for
studios.

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RickJWagner
Crazy.

If I were single, I'd move to SV and live like a pauper a few years, saving
the excess. You could retire to another part of the country shortly after.

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king_nothing
I survive in the Valley on under $15k, all in. Now they want to take away the
pittance that is SNAP Sept 1 declaring me ABAWD without any process, and I’ve
never been ABAWD.

