
Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions. - alnayyir
I've been programming in some capacity since I was 8 years old (AT&#38;T GW-Basic babeeeee) and am now 20 years old. I code primarily in C#/.NET (Can't do Mono, don't care for it.), C/C++, Assembly, Python, and I'm presently learning Lisp. (Yay Repl.) In particular I have seem to have a knack for reverse engineering, debugging, and code optimization.<p>Here's the deal, I went to uni for a single quarter, but had to drop out because I couldn't get any loans.<p>My Father's income disqualifies me for federal assistance and loans of any kind, and he refuses to cosign a private loan, so I don't seem to be able to get any money for school. Furthermore, my mother doesn't have the credit to cosign a loan (recent bankruptcy), and my father refuses to help me at all in going to school.<p>I did for about four months work as a programmer, for a systems migrations company. I was hired primarily because of my debugging knowledge, although it never came into play. I ended up creating an arcane mainframe data file parser in C#. However, I separated from the company and started my own business (not in the field of programming though, because me and the fellow I started it with couldn't find any contracts :( ) and went off on my own. The reason I left is because I was exempt salaried and I was being forced to work 70+ hours a week, refused access (without cause, there was no NDA on the data) to example data files for me to work with (I was working in the blind. This is unbelievably hard.) and various other reasons.<p>Oh right, and I was getting paid $1600 a month. Not the worst I've ever been paid, but considering the workload and stress, yikes.<p>Kind of regret leaving now, but it was all I could do to maintain my sanity.<p>Worked for myself, in various capacities since April 07, recently had to get a regular job because the company basically went down the tube for a number of reasons. (One of which involved being screwed over by UPS and PayPal at the same time.)<p>Honest-to-god, all I want to do is work as a programmer for a living, but I couldn't get anyone to hire me despite my knowledge/experience because of my lack of a degree. I've talked to a financial officer from a local community college and it doesn't seem immediately viable that I'll be able to go back to school.<p>Are there any worthwhile programming certifications that would be respected and known, and allow me to get back in the field? I'm basically paid $9 an hour to post on ebay at my current job, and I feel like I'm being wasted.<p>Is there some alternative that would allow me to go back to school? I'd personally love to just go to school full-time and focus on my studies. (Vigorous auto-didact.)<p>For that matter, anyone want to hire me? :D<p>Thanks to anyone who can offer any advice!
======
gm
I'll be honest, hopefully you'll appreciate it because you need honest advice.

I read your post and I can already hear the self-pity string quartet playing
and a big screen in the background playing images your hard, hard life. Task
#1 is to stop whining, not just to other people, mainly to yourself.

What do you mean you could not get any loans? What kind of whiny-ass thing is
that? You could not get loans so you dropped off college? Unless you're Bill
Gates or Sergey Brin, you did a huge mistake there. Get back into school at
any cost. Anyone can get a college loan. There are federally-funded ones,
there are guaranteed gov't loans, there are scholarships, in-school jobs,
grants, emergency cash crises funds at schools, etc...

To me it sounds like you wanted out of college and you took the first good
excuse to get out. You are screwed now because once you get out and get the
$9/hour full-time job (oops, you already did), it is REALLY hard to get back
into school. Now all you need is get a girlfriend, get her pregnant, and
congratulations, you have locked yourself out of school. If you have financial
obligations (credit cards), consider filing bankruptcy. Otherwise, you WILL be
held prisoner to your monthly payments (been there, done that).

Here's my advice: Get back into college. If you have a car that's all yours,
keep it, otherwise sell it and buy a bike. Once you are accepted: Get a job.
Any job that is compatible with school hours. If you have potential as a
programmer, then get a job/freelance as a programmer while you study. If not,
flipping burgers to pay for school is a very dignified thing to do. (It's
bailing out of college for whiny reasons that carries no dignity)

Stop whining. It does not get any easier if you whine. Problems do not get
solved if you whine.

Consider your own question: "Is there some alternative that would allow me to
go back to school?" WTF are you waiting for? For the problem to fix itself??
You are waiting for something to "allow" you to go back to school... I will
tell you right now, it's not gonna happen. You have to make it happen. Put
your ass back in school first, and THEN figure out how the rest of your life
will adapt to school life and priorities.

You are not the first person to have to deal with this, there is a huge
mechanism in place already to allow people to stay in school. It just carries
a cost (sorry, the new car will probably have to wait till after graduation).
All things say you do not want to pay that cost. Snap out of it.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Quite right, stop whining. I don't know your location, but in most states,
your local community college is cheap. At my alma mater, it's $1775/semester.
At the CC my sister recently dropped out of (note: she takes full
responsibility for her choice), it's $20/credit + ~$200/semester. When I was a
poor grad student living just outside NYC (income < $20k/year), I blew
$1775/semester on booze/pot/computer stuff I didn't need. Your state is
probably cheaper than NY.

Do 2 years of college. Once you turn 24 (+/-, something in that neighborhood),
you are independent, your father's income is irrelevant for financial aid. If
you have 2 years worth of college done, you can graduate when you turn 26. You
are "behind", but not by much. If you want to speed up the process, marry a
chick who needs citizenship, marriage also makes you independent.

~~~
alnayyir
I just checked with a diff comm college, I'm going there. I can go for ~1500 a
semester.

I'm super frugal and have no vices other than computers, I can afford that
twice over.

Problem solved until I want to go to Uni I guess.

------
rit
It's a tough situation; I was in a similar circumstance including parents
salaries disqualifying me for financial aid (my father passed away a month
before I started college, but the lookback period for financial aid is 3 years
of income. Unfortunately he made 3/4 of our family's income and after his
death we couldn't easily afford college).

The reality is this: without a degree, and no experience people have to take
you on your word that you know what you're doing, and they're loathe to do so.
You're going to have to probably deal with low pay until you get enough
experience to be able to convince someone you know enough to pay you the
salary they'd pay a grad. It may not be a great situation but I did it as
well. My first 'real' job was $8 an hour "tech support" for a mom & pop ISP
that involved 10% phone support, 40% systems administration and 50%
programming. I got overworked and beat on, but eventually I got enough
experience to jump to a 'real' programming job (who also underpaid me and
overworked me, but a year there gave me 2+ solid years of demonstrable
experience and I was able to call the shots a bit more).

Continue your work on Ubuntu and other open source projects. Not only will it
continue to build experience, and get your name on projects which you can hold
up to a prospective employer, you will get to know other developers who might
be in a position to help you find something better.

The pay and the hours will suck at first, but it improves. You can't be aiming
at an $85k target with no experience though without coming out disheartened.
Focus on the experience first, and THEN the money. It follows quickly in hand
if you do it right.

Since nobody mentioned it, New York tends to have a pretty decent market with
a fairly broad skillset. You're always best off of course moving to a city for
a job you already have, rather than moving to a city and then finding a job.
You might find yourself in a messy situation if you just move blindly. There
are still a good bit of companies that will pay moving expenses - at the
LEAST, if you're clear in a cover letter that you're looking to move to a
market with a more established IT industry, and you'll pay moving on your own
it won't disqualify you just because of location.

Good luck!

~~~
alnayyir
I am not aiming for $85k, I'm not aiming for any sum of money. I just want to
make a living coding. I'd be happy with $30k if it were matched with a decent
work environment.

I have been considering moving to a better IT market, I just felt weak when it
came to getting a programming job, so wasn't certain if I'd be able to get one
remotely.

Thanks for the tips.

~~~
andreyf
With all due respect, you're exhibiting signs of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Degrees matter, sure. But there's definitely a way you can demonstrate
knowledge without having one. Here is a good read:

[http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-
goog...](http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-google.html)

Definitely get some F/OSS projects under your belt. It's a great way to show
what you can do, and you can work on them completely on your own schedule. To
show that you know compilers, help out with code optimization in Rhino. To
show you know networking, help out fixing an IM client's file transfer. To
show that you know web programming, rewrite phpMyAdmin as a webapp, or make a
web-based learning tool for kids like Karel The Robot (Google that).

At least for me, I don't think it was the degree that helped with jobs, it was
the side projects I worked on in the 4 years of (what I realize now were)
oceans of free time.

~~~
alnayyir
I understand what you're saying about Dunning-Kruger, but I could sit here and
tell you about the merits of Linux Kernel asm-level syscalls versus DOS
interrupts.

I know i386 and PPC asm.

I have a passion for algorithms, in particular, I like in my spare time to
create mini-benchmarks of sorting algorithms against various arbitrary
datasets.

I know my stuff. I just can't demonstrate the more advanced work I've done
because it usually violates US Copyright Law.

EDIT: Let me qualify this by saying there is tons more I need to learn, and
want to know. For example, I really REALLY need to learn more about web
application development.

~~~
jrockway
It doesn't matter if you tell yourself you know your stuff. I don't think
anyone ever says "I don't know anything." You need to prove it. Companies
don't care what you tell them, you need to _show_ them.

If all the intelligent work you do can't be shared... you need to do some
intelligent work that you can share. Otherwise nobody will know you're good.

Get involved with open source projects. If you get yourself involved in a
community that already exists, and you show you know your stuff, you will be
showered with job offers. If you do your own thing and then whine on HN, you
will be unemployed forever.

------
mickt
Here's what I did; I went part-time off-and-on for 4 years and it seemed like
an eternity and sucked big time. Finally quite my job and financed my 1st year
of full-time (State) college with my credit-cards, worked in the Unix lab. In
my 2nd year I got an internship, as a software engineer, that paid well and
continued the internship part-time till I graduated.

One summer (3 months) working as an intern and I made more money than working
6 months at my previous full-time job ... also after going full-time to
college I made life-long friends that I would not have met going part-time.

On the other hand, if your want to continue as a programmer, U might not
really need college if your really, really good. But, a good Computer Science
program (and not a whimsical Informations System program) will teach you
skills and knowledge that will be invaluable throughout your career. Also,
having a degree can be a requirement for many jobs, they might not consider
your resume or cv if you don't have one.

Even earning $1600 a month you can go part-time to a state college and start
working your way to a degree. Tis better to have a degree even if it takes too
long that to not have a degree and get stuck in a rut.

My advise, find an inexpensive state college with a good CS program, go to
their open house, talk to their funding specialists. Be prepared to give up
the niceties of life for a few years and you'll manage somehow.

OR, come to Boston and sigh up for Ycombinator! :)

~~~
alnayyir
I'm not making 1600 anymore, that was when I was a programmer. I make ~1050 a
month post-tax.

------
danw
There are small companies who've realised that most graduates lack the skills
they need and have to be trained in house. Find one of these and I'm sure
they'll take you on after you've explained your situation. Best place to look
would be local user group meetings. Also keep an eye on those companies that
advertise positions on Joel on Software and the like.

~~~
pchristensen
++1 for Joel's job board. I just started an awesome job I found there. 10
people, I'm the 4th programmer, great environment, best coworkers yet.

------
hunterjrj
If leaving Ohio is an option, get yourself out of there and into a major
center. Though Columbus is a large place, you won't have nearly as many
options as you would in say... Silicon Valley, Boston or New York.

Don't let past experience set your future expectations in terms of being
hired. People do hire based on merit, so be persistent.

Lean towards smaller companies without bulky HR depts. HR people are generally
looking for degrees, because they do not have any other way of reliably
measuring the value of a programmer. With smaller companies, your resume has a
better chance of winding up on the desk of someone who knows the difference
between C# and C++ or Java and JavaScript.

Be persistent. There is work out there for talented people, regardless of
their degree (or lack thereof)

~~~
mickt
The problem with moving is the cost! It's can take a lot of money to move,
especially to SV, Boston, or NYC. Plus, as an out-of-state resident (state)
colleges will be too expensive.

However, UMass Boston has a pretty good CS programme at a cost a lot less than
the big local private schools.

------
jkent
One idea - get your IT resume together, see if anyone you know from your tech
days is hiring, and fire it off. Don't let a lack of college stop you.

Another idea - do a bit of networking in the city (meetup.com groups etc) if
you want to stay there. If not, probably soft-relocate and couchsurf in San
Francisco or Palo Alto, then network there.

With your background, you'll get hired in no time.

------
JFred
There are some truly free universities. But you've still got to pay for
essentials. The MIT curricula are on the web somewhere for free. Including
texts.

If you do your own open source project, it can work for you. It's hard work
and it can stereotype you. If you do a great job at building a new test thing
for, Ruby, say, you'll have a hard time escaping the stereotype for 'test' and
'ruby'. But it can work.

You can lie on your resume and then work crazy to get your jobs done. For
certain lazy, pointy-headed bosses and certain smart and ambitious programmers
this might be the best solution. You can easily do better than the idiots
these fools would otherwise hire. If you do this then change jobs every 2
years. You'll then have enough of a real resume that you can drop off the
original baloney.

Actually stealing the money to pay your way through school is against the law
and the hard time simply isn't worth it.

I have friends in university administration and another whose a college
guidance counselor; They say there are many more scholarships available than
people think. If you're willing to dig you can find some. There are often
local scholarships available, for example, there might be something from the
banks or the Chamber of Commerce in Columbus. Or your church. Or your dad's
union, or business group.

Spend a day on the web searching for federal and other scholarships. I
understand it works.

------
Maro
As a general rule, if working as an employee, try to avoid large corporations.
Working there sucks anyways, and they won't hire you (and pay you good money)
without a degree. Look for small companies that are looking for sharp
individuals. Anything under 5-10 ppl is good, if they are more than 15-20
they're probably already loose the edge.

You could also be bold and be independentish, but that's much riskier, and is
hard without some family background.

The best thing to do at this age, if possible is to go to a regular University
and get a degree. Even if you go to school, get a job for the experience. The
best way to learn programming is to learn from other experienced programmers
who review your code, you review their code, ask them what they think of
technology-X, etc. You don't get that at school. While at H.S. I took some
courses (e.g. UNIX, C) at the local comm. college, and it retrospect they were
pretty low-level, so as a rule of thumb don't count on getting anything
worthwhile out of there.

------
mynameishere
Disown your father.

~~~
run4yourlives
From the sounds of it, it might be very likely that his father is not the
curmudgeon that he appears, but is in fact attempting to teach his son a very
valuable lesson, one that will allow him to avoid the perils that his mother
faces.

~~~
alnayyir
My Father could afford to pay for me to go to Princeton, in cash, on a yearly
basis.

It has nothing to do with debt management.

I am extremely frugal, and as said elsewhere, I'll be going to a community
college I found. I am paying the tuition in _cash_. That isn't something
someone with poor finance skills can do.

~~~
run4yourlives
I don't think the lesson he is attempting to teach you has anything to do with
money, btw.

~~~
alnayyir
My Father is a literal sociopath, he isn't trying to teach anyone anything.

~~~
prospero
So emancipate yourself, and get financial aid. It doesn't sound like there's
much holding you back.

~~~
alnayyir
I didn't know you could emancipate yourself post-age-of-18.

I already found a solution via community college.

------
KWD
Get the degree. I've dealt with people who failed to get the degree and found
it a problem later in life. It's easier now than when you're 40ish and have a
family. And believe me, it will come back to haunt you at some point when
you're older and you find that perfect position and they require a degree.

As far as moving out of Columbus, I can't really say that would be necessary,
and don't do it without a job lined up. There's a lot of experienced
programmers on the street now, and you'll never know if you're going to the
wrong market at the wrong time.

Finally, Network, Network, Network. The user group suggestion above was a good
one.

------
menloparkbum
If you're in Columbus, in state tuition at Ohio state is less than $9000 a
year, so it is hard to imagine being unable to find money for school. You can
make that kind of money working part time at a bar.

~~~
alnayyir
I found a solution, but I'd still like to correct you.

You can make that kind of money part-time at a bar, while homeless and never
eating.

9k is the _sum_ of what you'd make working part-time at a bar here.

~~~
menloparkbum
It may be different in Columbus. A popular bartender at the right bar in SF
can make $400/night in tips. However, I paid my way through school in the
midwest with academic scholarships and a part time unix systems administrator
job. The school I went to cost twice as much as Ohio State, and I graduated
with no debt, so I sort of agree with "gm."

~~~
alnayyir
_shrugs_ I found my solution: community college as a launchpad for getting
high grades and going to Uni for free.

I can afford to pay for CC out of pocket. It's cheap.

Columbus has a severe labor surplus/job shortage. This rust belt area is dying
hard. I was lucky to get my $9 an hour job. I live alone, I pay all my bills
myself. Columbus doesn't give me much margin to work with, were it not for my
frugality.

------
moyashi
Get out of Columbus ASAP. Go to Portland, San Francisco, Raleigh, New York, or
leave the USA - we're headed into worse economic times than the early '70s,
things may get very grim here. Also if you're into Linux, spring for RedHat or
Novell certification. You can hang out in the sysadmin world for a bit while
you save up to continue your education, build a track record, and gain
valuable practical experience. Learn to present a good resume and keep
applying for jobs - the worst that can happen is that you don't get a phone
call.

------
NoBSWebDesign
I had the exact same problem with no help and no cosigners. Eerily exact
actually. My dad wouldn't help or co-sign and his income was too great to help
with financial aid, and my mom was in no financial position to co-sign.

So, what did I do? I spent every waking second of my senior year in high
school applying for scholarships (merit-based, not need-based). So my advice
to you would be to do the same. You may be out of high school already, but
it's never too late. Spend the next semester applying for scholarships (sign
up and create your profile on fastweb.com for starters).

After you've gotten a few, go take out student loans for the rest. Though a
co-signer helps, I never had one, so I know it's possible. I got most of mine
through Sallie Mae. Of course the downside is you get approved with an 11%
interest rate (especially with the economy the way it is now). But if you're
truly as skilled and disciplined as you claim, you should be able to make that
back up no problem once you graduate.

Of course, playing devil's advocate here, there are many people for whom
college is not right. Many people spend their entire lives paying off student
loans because they got a degree in some field that doesn't pay well, and for
which the difference in average salaries between a college grad and a high
school grad is not enough to feasibly cover the cost of the college degree.

However, with programming, and the level of competence you're claiming, a
degree would definitely be a wise investment for you. So, get in the game and
take care!

------
cnunciato
You definitely don't need a degree or a cert, that's for sure. Just keep at it
and you'll find something. Columbus is no Silicon Valley (althugh it wouldn't
hurt to consider relocating to a more geek-friendly city -- we just moved to
Seattle and love it), but even Ohio should be able to offer you something.
Though you'd probably do a bit better in Cincinnati. =)

------
Jaytee
Here's my situation. In no way am I trying to say I'm doing better or worse.

I graduated with Physics BS two years ago. I work 4 hours a week as a
teacher/mentor. ($30-40 an hours) And I code AI the rest of the time. I live
in a van on a co-op property to illuminate rent money so that I can work less
for money and code more.

This is just temporary, but I do love the lifestyle. I have never learned as
much and as more efficiently as I do now. So if you have a specific project to
do, do it yourself or find other bright people to partner with. If not, it's
time to network.

You will get a good job lead either by having a lot of accomplishment, or lots
of good networks. And the latter seems to work for most people.

It sounds like you have done a lot of good work for other people. Have you
exploited your network yet? Email friends of friends, past co-workers of co-
workers, find out what they are doing. I'm sure if you dig hard enough you
will find someone interesting that needs your help.

------
packer64
Get a part time day job doing something physical (window washing, carpet
cleaning) that does not require too much thinkin'.

While doing that, start to build your programming client base while working
late days and evenings. The two incomes combined will be modest (close to
$1,600/mo), but you will be able to take some tax breaks for owning your own
biz (write-offs include gas, computer, travel). Plus, this schedule will allow
you to make mistakes while programming, dealing with clients, and more without
you loosing your livelihood.

Commit to this for two years. At the end of 24 months, review your position.
If your programming business and clientele are supporting your desired
lifestyle, then move into full time programming. If not, then you may want to
reconsider a life of 0s and 1s.

------
Ras_
Come to university in Finland / Sweden. Tuition is free in both countries.
Housing costs, but it does so everywhere.

<http://www.studyinfinland.fi/> <http://www.studyinsweden.se/>

------
redorb
I took the same job, from a factory - the owner set me up working as a "ebay
poster" , I asked the company why they didn't move beyond the 21-23% fee ebay
takes and build there own website to sell their products.

\- they had already spent 5k and in 2 years without sales, they said "No Way!"
...

\- i went home and bought the domain www.econoPalletJack.com for $10.20 - I
built the site in 2 days (yeah its not perfect) but with a #5 in google for
pallet jack and 20k/mo in sales it all worked out, I have since left the
company but the owner and i are still greats freinds (wouldn't you be if a guy
left you 20k/mo residual)

\- have hope and make things on your spare time, little programs perhaps to
sell, find a hurt point that you are passionate about and do it.

------
adrianwaj
Check out <http://YouNoodle.com> \- do a search on your city and then contact
the founders of the startups in your city.

Run with the first one that raises capital, or has it already to hire you.

Research some VC portfolios and contact the companies where you'd fit in.

A uni degree isn't everything, but you need to know how to optimize your time,
to be able to keep learning, and to be positioning yourself for success in the
best possible way - through a startup.

If you can, a blog will help with your writing skills and something to show
employers.

If you get to college, take freelance jobs over the web that can be performed
remotely like from elance, getacoder, programmingbids and the like.

Most of all Good Luck and don't be like your dad to your kids.

------
lsemel
Employers want to hire people who can solve problems. And right now, you're
problem is that you need a degree. If you can't figure out a solution to that
problem one way or another, who is going to believe that you have the tenacity
and smarts to figure out out other problems (such as programming problems).
Figure out something: take out loans in your own name, work during the day and
get a degree at night, go for continuing education courses. If you want it
enough you will be able to find a way. And having the degree will help to
solve the problem of people not wanting to hire you for lack of a degree,
which is going to be with you for your entire career if you don't get one.

------
vlad
You're doing everything right. (And your life is supposed to suck, given your
situation.)

1) You picked software development, the right career choice for you.

2) You've programmed at home for years, which is also right.

3) You entered college. Very important and correct thing to do.

4) You left college. Very correct thing to do, given that you had to pay lots
of money but could not secure a loan in time.

5) You've tried to get work in a field you enjoy and are comfortable with.
Very correct thing to do.

6) You quit your work. Very good thing to do given you were not treated like
an adult, and underpaid. Very important to recognize this.

7) You started another job, that pays you even less, but you were right to
assert yourself and look for another job since the other had everything going
against you.

You need to realize that it's not the lack of a degree that's hurting you, but
your age. If you were five to ten years older, you would be taken more
seriously, as well has have better references--degree or not.

In the mean time, you may as well finish a C.S. degree at the most affordable
college you can find. You were right to investigate a community college, but I
would recommend just attending a four year school because it might avoid
transfer credit issues; however, since it's July, find and enroll in a
community college program that:

1) grants an Associate of Science degree in Computer Science, Software
Engineering, or Engineering;

2) has a charter with a four-year public school you might like, that has
guaranteed admissions and full transfer of credits to a C.S. program at that
college, allowing you to enter as a Junior.

The only thing you are doing wrong is whining (you were correct in this case,
but I wouldn't do it from now on. I would also not walk around thinking you've
got the best plan for you, ever, being a software developer and possibly
working for a high-tech company in four years, either.) Just enjoy the
experience. Also, try creating applications for others to use while you're in
college.

There, you're all set! (The reason I don't recommend whining further is
because sh*t happens to everyone. And especially it being two years ago, don't
stress over it, and don't even bring it up... You started college, had
financial aid screw ups, then continued college--a pretty normal occurrence.)

However, DON'T LOSE THE PASSION. I can sense a lot of "if I only had a chance"
energy and that (in my opinion) is the best energy one can have towards making
something great.

------
elai
If you can somehow get the local co-op job listings @ your uni, you'll find a
lot of entry level positions for intern type jobs. Try applying for places w/o
transcript requirements, read a bit about algorithms, and you could find
yourself with a $2500/month entry level programming job.

------
moyashi
Oh...and you should probably take gm's tough love to heart - he's on to
something there.

------
syalam
get a degree dude. you'll start off making at least $50K minimum if you do
computer science. Build your life financially then do your own thing.

------
alnayyir
Oh, I'm based out of Columbus, OH, but I'm not especially beholden to the
city.

~~~
gtani
hang out at local user's groups. I've thought of driving down to the
Ruby/rails UG, sounds like a really good crew

<http://groups.google.com/group/columbusrb?lnk=>

(i bet cincinatti has stuff like this too. Cleveland's pretty, uh, quiet).

I'm guessing that there's one job category that there will never be enough
people for, anywhere: javascript programmers who thoroughly understand DOM
scripting, making things work securely in IE 6-8, safari and firefox. So web
app's are a little afield of what you've been doing, ubt if your're good at
rails or Django, plus mysql/Postgres tuning, plus some Jquery, sojmebody will
hire you. Getting a technical job's like parking your car in a major city.
Some people have hummers, other have scooters, but when you get a space, you
think, hey, that wasn't bad at all

~~~
mechanical_fish
_javascript programmers who thoroughly understand DOM scripting, making things
work securely in IE 6-8, safari and firefox_

 _Now_ we are getting somewhere.

Look deep into your soul and ask yourself: "Is there an actual _reason_ why I
haven't become a web programmer yet?"

I'm going to catch _hell_ for saying this on news.yc... but stop learning Lisp
for a while. Nobody knows about Lisp but grad students and MIT grads, and
they're going to hire other grad students and MIT grads, because there's a
long line of people with advanced degrees who would _love_ to be paid to hack
on Lisp but can't find that job.

Where there's muck, there's brass. Learn some HTML, CSS, Javascript and -- god
help us -- PHP, in the form of a good and popular toolkit like Drupal. If you
can't stomach the PHP (after learning Ruby or Lisp, PHP can feel like typing
in boxing gloves) learn Django, Pylons or Ruby plus Rails -- but, if you want
steady work, PHP may be better in the short term. There's an enormous and
growing number of PHP-based sites in the world, and nobody can find the coders
to keep them all up.

Above all, learn SQL. If you're going to pursue some paper qualification that
isn't a college degree, make it _database administration_. SQL isn't going
anywhere for the next decade, companies _need_ those skills, and a surprising
number of developers have only the faintest notion of how an RDBMS works.

Web development jobs can be acquired one short-term gig at a time -- it's
fairly low-risk for prospective clients to try you out, and the fact that
you'll obviously leave for college in a year or two won't bother most of them.
These jobs can be done from several time zones away. They can be done for
clients that you've never even seen. If you choose your gigs carefully, each
one results in a piece of publicly-visible software that can be linked in your
portfolio and shown to future clients. Once your portfolio and reputation
exist, nobody will care about what degrees you have or don't have.

I'm guessing that most systems programming jobs, and a majority of the
Microsoft-stack C#/.NET jobs, involve physically sitting in actual cubicles in
offices full of college grads. If you are intent on pursuing such a job,
Columbus is probably the wrong place -- it has a relatively low number of jobs
in your field and a relatively enormous number of college grads.

~~~
alnayyir
Thanks for the excellent advice.

As I said in another reply, I found a community college that is cheap enough
for me to pay for the tuition in cash. I'll just get my degree and go from
there.

~~~
mickt
Great it's a good start! :) Just be careful that you don't take courses that
won't transfer to a 4-year college (beats me how you'd determine this).

Plus, this discussion is good for anyone else in your position and it'd be
good to keep the dialog going as you may get some other useful suggestions for
the future.

Why not apply to MIT maybe they'll give you a scholarship! U never know. :)

~~~
alnayyir
I highly doubt MIT would want me, my high school grades were mediocre, and I
did get a 28 on my ACT, but that was with a hangover. I didn't learn my lesson
regarding grades and working in school until it was too late.

~~~
mickt
UR probably right, but what the heck!

------
tphyahoo
simple and stupid, but have you tried talking to recruiters?

