
Palantir forced out of job fair after outcry over ICE contracts - ingenieros
https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/26/20833792/palantir-lesbians-who-tech-job-fair-ice-contract
======
somethingtosay
Let's be honest. Palantir's business model is mass surveillance of people
(including, especially, US citizens). They allow many government agencies to
circumvent the legal procedures required to access government databases by
instead using theirs.

If you support that, more power to you. Be honest about what you're supporting
though. This is not just about ICE. This is not the same as the advertiser
tracking.

~~~
ng12
Palantir is much closer to a consulting agency (think SAP or IBM) than
anything like that.

~~~
mdorazio
Could you explain that? I, and I think a lot of HN readers, are strongly of
the impression that Palantir sells a platform and toolkit for mass data
analysis specifically meant for human tracking across large government
datasets. I understand that as with any large-scale implementation, a good
portion of their actual project dollars will come from billable hours to get
it running and keep it running, but they're certainly not run like an actual
consulting company.

Also, neither SAP nor IBM are consulting companies. SAP is an ERP provider and
IBM is a cloud-based solution provider and outsourcing company. Most people
would say consulting companies are those like Accenture, Deloitte, McKinsey,
BCG, etc.

~~~
ng12
SAP and IBM are both absolutely consulting firms, with the caveat that tech
consulting means you're actually building solutions for your customers and not
just telling them what they should build.

I think the biggest confusion is that Palantir is not in the data collection
industry. They make tools to analyze data and contract out consultants
(Forward Deployed Engineers) to do the analysis -- but the data is not being
sourced by them. There's nothing you can do with Palantir that you couldn't do
with any consulting firm or an in-house data-science/data-engineering team.
Palantir's value proposition is that they have better tools and smarter
people, but there's nothing magical or particularly nefarious about it.

~~~
mdorazio
I'm going to continue to disagree on the definition of consulting companies.
Consulting companies have billable hours as their primary revenue stream. SAP
in Q2 made over 80% of its revenue on cloud and software licenses. It's an ERP
company with some consultants, not the other way around. Accenture, in
comparison, makes about 75% of its revenue on billable services. I'll give you
_maybe_ IBM since their revenue is close to a 50/50 split between billable
hours services and infrastructure/application fees depending on how you define
the categories in their 10Q.

If anyone has any breakdown for Palantir's revenue by category, I'd love to
see it.

~~~
ng12
I'm not sure why that matters. You can knock on IBM's door with a pile of cash
and they'll build your software system for you. I don't doubt that it's a
smaller part of their business but it's still analogous to what Palantir does.
Pick a different software services company if IBM and SAP don't suit you.

~~~
mdorazio
I could also knock on my neighbor's door with a pile of cash and he'd build a
shed for me even though he's never swung a hammer in his life. That doesn't
mean he's in the business of building sheds, it just means he likes money.
Palantir markets itself as a platform and tools vendor, and everything I've
seen so far indicates that their primary revenue stream is there, not in
professional services.

The actual consulting equivalent of Palantir would be any of the many data
science "guns for hire" consultancies floating around that will sell you a few
people for $250 an hour to get a project done, then leave.

~~~
ng12
If he builds you a shed for money he's in the shed-building business. I'm not
sure why you're so intent on arguing semantics here.

IBM will build you a system to analyze some data. So will Palantir. Two
different firms that offer a similar service. That's the only point I was
trying to make.

~~~
mdorazio
Semantics here are important because calling Palantir just a consultancy and
trying to categorize it with other consultancies is disingenuous. It is a
company with a platform and toolset specifically built to enable surveillance
states. Calling it a consultancy "like IBM" is not a fair characterization of
the company.

And no, if you do a thing once for money you are not in that business. That
argument is completely ridiculous. You are in the business of whatever you
_primarily_ do for money on a regular basis.

~~~
ng12
It only feels disingenuous because you're not familiar with Palantir's
business or offerings. You're not alone in this, most people who have strong
opinions on Palantir have them based on lazy journalism from publications
who's primary goal is to spread FUD (it's funny how we laugh at the average
journalist's understanding of technology until the narrative aligns with our
personal beliefs). I tried my best to explain but it seems you've already come
to your conclusions.

------
jdlyga
Nobody likes the idea of arresting undocumented immigrants and kicking them
out of the country. It could probably be done in a better way too. And the
legal immigration system is crazy (I've dealt with it myself). But it's work
that needs to be done to secure the border, even though it's heartbreaking
sometimes. Just like security making sure people don't sneak into a concert
without a ticket. I probably wouldn't want to work for a company that was
involved in supplying info to ICE raids, but there's a lot of jobs I wouldn't
be interested in doing. People should be able to decide for themselves.

~~~
spamizbad
Is there any documented evidence on the efficacy of ICE raids? They seem to
function primarily as a destabilizing force in communities. We certainly
seemed to be doing fine prior to 2003.

From what I can see, they're a bloated DHS organ that's sucking down massive
amounts of tax dollars for what amounts to security theater. You'd think in
the $47 billion DHS budget they'd find some money for things like soap and
toothbrushes.

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
Yes, there is evidence, right on the ICE website:
[https://www.ice.gov/features/ERO-2018](https://www.ice.gov/features/ERO-2018)

~~~
spamizbad
A sweep targeting thousands of people nation-wide resulted in only 35 arrests:
[https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-07-23/ice-
ra...](https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-07-23/ice-raids-
immigration-arrests)

The number on ICE's website are computed based on an Obama-era change where
they can count turning away people at the border as a deportation.

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
Did I get it right that you're complaining about ICE not making enough
arrests?

~~~
spamizbad
I'm saying it's a bloated government organ that spends billions of tax-payer
dollars to perform what amounts to security theater. You could cut it down to
1/10th the size and pass the savings on to tax payers (or allocate somewhere
more effective) and get better outcomes.

Even if you support their mission There's really nothing defensible ICE.
They're sucking down billions while being bad at what they do.

------
badrabbit
Used some if their product. They do a good job. Perfect example of how good
products can be used to cause so much harm.

~~~
rubinelli
Considering the story of the original Palantir, I couldn't think of a better
name.

~~~
ng12
That's actually the intention: [https://www.quora.com/Did-Palantirs-founders-
consider-the-et...](https://www.quora.com/Did-Palantirs-founders-consider-the-
ethical-implications-of-their-work-Do-they-have-thoughts-about-the-
consequences-of-what-they-built/answer/Joe-Lonsdale?ch=1)

~~~
ozymandias12
What a strong read. Thank you fellow hacker.

------
pimmen
This is how the world changes. Just because ICE is enforcing the law does not
mean that what they do with Palantir’s software is ethical. Once upon a time
the military was enforcing the law by outing and dismissing gay people and
that changed by private entities taking a stand. Just acting on the default
that enforcing the current law is ethical is just lazy, IMHO.

So, you can have any opinion you want about whether or not the job fair should
have acted the way it did but I think it’s well within their right to do so if
they want to make an impact.

------
ng12
As Google has recently proven steering clear of the politically woke is
probably the right move anyways.

~~~
tomlock
Their share price seems to be doing ok.

~~~
colpabar
Would you argue that there isn't a gun problem because gun sales went up after
a shooting?

------
igrekel
Stupid question: The article never says what ICE is, anyone can give a clue to
non-americas readers?

~~~
nixgeek
Department of Homeland Security, Immigration and Customs Enforcement

------
par
Comment readers be warned, this is a fairly toxic and divisive thread.

~~~
csmattryder
You would've thought that the esteemed readers of HN would be able to spot and
rise above an article like this, knowing there's no "winning side" and you're
not gonna be changing anyone's views today.

Humans of all calibre just love a scrap, it seems.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
I don’t think it would be appropriate to rise above an article like this. It
_matters_ if a major tech company gets excluded from things, whether you think
that the community is rising up against bad tech or that Palantir is being
unfairly demonized. You can’t make a rule of never discussing controversial
things.

------
tryitnow
Doesn't Palantir also contract with Middle-Eastern governments that are not
exactly known for their outstanding record on LGBTQ affairs? If so, I'm
surprised that that concern wasn't brought up.

~~~
devoply
Yes a gay man like Thiel not looking out for LGBTQ people's rights would be
quite shocking. But then money knows no gender orientation.

~~~
sorokod
Why would there be any correlation between sexual orientation and morality?

~~~
EForEndeavour
That's not what OP was trying to say. The point here is the irony of Peter
Thiel, an openly gay man, having cofounded Palantir, which helps foreign
governments persecute LGBTQ+ people.

------
tibbydudeza
No problem with enforcing the law of the land but locking up kids and
separating them from their parents , and withholding essentials like basic
cleaning and health services makes this a moral issue of those who enable this
i.e Amazon, Palantir etc ...

~~~
artificial
Unfortunately the lack of funding is purely political football. Regarding the
separation issue, how do feel about prisons which historically involve
separation from family members?

~~~
jdsully
Illegal immigration is different because often the entire family commits the
crime together. Further an irregular border crossing is a misdemeanor not a
Felony. We don’t take kids away from parents for misdemeanors.

But even if you ignored the cruel and unusual punishment aspects - deporting
the children separately is unforgivable. In some cases they didn’t even bother
to record the family connection before separating them.

~~~
alfromspace
You can absolutely go to jail for misdemeanors.

~~~
pjc50
None of these people have been convicted of anything. It's not a judicial
punishment. Furthermore, some of them aren't even immigrants.
[https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-citizens-
ice-20180...](https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-citizens-
ice-20180427-htmlstory.html)

Fundamentally, America has given the right - no, _demanded_ \- that police do
"papers please" stops on people, and given them the right to detain them
indefinitely until they produce papers. This is like a mandatory ID card
system but without the benefits or coherent organisation.

------
heedlessly2
Sounds like a PR stunt by this this organization holding the career fair. They
knew what they were getting themselves into when they accepted Palantir's
money to hold a table their. This ICE reputation by Palantir isn't some new
revelation.

if I took money from Trump, am I going pretend to act shocked when he did
something controversial? No, I knew the whole time

------
woeirua
So we have the fake outrage here over working with a government organization
to enforce the law (which you may disagree with, but it is still the law).

Meanwhile, Apple, Google, etc all get a free pass for working with China,
which is doing far worse things to its citizens, and has made no attempt to
conceal that it wants to use those tech companies to do even worse things. The
hypocrisy on this board is astounding at times.

~~~
JeremyBanks
I'm not sure how you could consider Google to have been given a "free pass",
given the number of times stories about employees protesting those issues have
trended here.

~~~
woeirua
When was the last time Google was kicked out of a job fair over their products
or abuse of personal data?

------
goatinaboat
I would have assumed that lesbian ideas about immigration ran the gamut of the
political spectrum, just the same as non-lesbians. It’s curious that they
apparently cluster at one end.

~~~
ahelwer
If you're a person facing societal oppression you're likely to (1) recognize
that societal oppression actually exists and (2) be sympathetic to others who
are facing societal oppression.

~~~
weiming
> Facing societal oppression

> Sponsored by some of the country's biggest companies:
> [https://lesbianswhotech.org/newyork2019/#Sponsors](https://lesbianswhotech.org/newyork2019/#Sponsors)

~~~
okmokmz
Are you implying that no one in an LGBTQ group could be facing societal
oppression because they have major sponsors? That's absurd

------
weiming
Soon, activists will start boycotting Microsoft (gov't agencies use Word and
Excel), 3M (gov't agencies use Post-it notes), and Charmin (they also buy
toilet paper).

~~~
rtkwe
Big difference between making general purpose software like MS is and making
software specifically for a specific purpose...

~~~
TeMPOraL
There have already been calls to boycott cloud providers for providing VMs in
the cloud so no, it seems there's little difference in the eyes of some
people.

