
Manufacturer Threatens To Sue Volunteers who printed a valve - djsumdog
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200317/04381644114/volunteers-3d-print-unobtainable-11000-valve-1-to-keep-covid-19-patients-alive-original-manufacturer-threatens-to-sue.shtml
======
sliken
Dupe
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22611910](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22611910)

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userbinator
_which is also why Fracassi doesn 't dare share his 3D file with other
hospitals, despite their desperate need for these valves._

Now suppose someone publishes, anonymously, the design file online...

~~~
jbverschoor
Actually, I think designs and patents are free for personal use. So any easy
way around it is to document how to get to that design, and let’s patients
print valves for personal use

~~~
tyre
Print them, tell the company to fuck off, and get a blanket post-hoc pardon
through parliament.

This isn't actually complicated. We're talking about saving lives in a
pandemic. Who gives a shit about IP law?

~~~
asfarley
No kidding, biology definitely trumps ink-on-paper in this case

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virtualritz
Printcrime[1,2] by Doctorov becoming reality in one of the most nasty ways
imaginable.

[1] [https://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-
_Overclocke...](https://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-
_Overclocked_-_Printcrime.html)

[2] E-book download:
[https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19000](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19000)

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noodlesUK
The Italian government should grant an amnesty for this immediately. Lives are
on the line. There is no question about what the right thing to do in this
situation is.

~~~
tyre
Agreed. Parliament can grant pardons. They should come out and say, "Anyone
prosecuted for patent infringement over this valve will be pardoned."

There aren't many clear, easy choices in a situation like this.

Here's one.

~~~
regularfry
That's actually the wrong way round. In order to be pardoned, they first have
to be found guilty, so they need to go through the expense of defending
themselves. What's needed is to prevent the cases from getting that far in the
first place, which could be done by the government taking possession of any
relevant patents for the duration and issuing a time-limited license.

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danimal88
You'd think an easy enough change to the laws around IP for medical equipment
would be that if they can't supply critical parts, particularly under extreme
circumstances, they most hold harmless any supplier that is able to supply
said parts.

~~~
Frost1x
Or that the situation was absolutely ridiculous to begin with and goes way
beyond what was ever intended by patent laws.

I find it hard to believe that $11k was a justifiable price or that the valve
design was novel or sophisticated enough that someone reproduced the geometry
from scratch so trivially (without even using sophisticated 3D scanning
techniques I might add, as I understand it).

A lot of businesses strategically buy and sell patents in processes to prevent
others from implementing the full process and to force royalties on single
pieces. Patents have really got out of hand and in my opinion, stifle
innovation more than secure and foster it the way they're currently being
abused.

IP protections do need to exist but there's a lot in terms of protection that
is just garbage.

~~~
lostlogin
> sophisticated 3D scanning techniques

It’s not too hard to convert a DICOM file, and most hospitals have a CT
scanner than is up to the task if you give cake to the right person.
Engineering departments know this well.

~~~
Frost1x
For a tiny valve that size, you'd almost certainly need to use a MicroCT
scanner though. I dont know how many hospitals keep one on hand since they're
very niche and there are obvious issues imaging anything living (movement,
radiation exposure, etc).

Its typically used outside of hospital environments for scanning. The large
scanners won't give you the level of detail you'd need, at least not the ones
I worked with.

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mirimir
I haven't managed to identify the valve manufacturer.

They definitely ought to be named and shamed.

I did find this: [https://www.archyde.com/italian-start-up-3d-prints-valves-
to...](https://www.archyde.com/italian-start-up-3d-prints-valves-to-help-
coronavirus-patients/)

Edit: Charging 10000 EUR for a 1 EUR part in a breathing device is typical
scumbag behavior. Doing that during a pandemic rises to criminal. Suing people
who 3D print parts for free is grounds for nationalization.

~~~
sandov
> Charging 10000 EUR for a 1 EUR part in a breathing device is typical scumbag
> behavior. Doing that during a pandemic rises to criminal. Suing people who
> 3D print parts for free is grounds for nationalization.

No, it's grounds for abolition of intellectual property. Don't blame the
player for crappy rules.

~~~
neurocline
If it was legal to own slaves and someone owned slaves, I would blame them.
And work to free all their slaves.

~~~
dessant
I agree with the sentiment, though it's practically still legal to own slaves
in some places.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century)

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pnw_hazor
In the US the Federal government or its agents can infringe patents basically
at will. The remedy to the patent holder in a case like this would be the cost
of the valves.

No special court orders are required. Neither can the infringed sue to stop
the US gov (or its contractors) from infringing. If a US state infringes it
may be protected by sovereign immunity (assuming it has not waived that
protection)

Of course Italian law may be different, but they or the EU probably have
similar immunities.

~~~
staticautomatic
Not exactly.

[https://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/node/2927](https://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/node/2927)

~~~
pnw_hazor
I don't see any disagreement with what I said in here.

Edit to add:

I am an IP attorney so I appreciate that to some people this article may seem
like it contradicts some of what I said. IP law is hard.

But as far as I could tell, with one quick read, it basically confirms what I
said.

Also, thanks for the link, I hadn't seen this article before.

~~~
staticautomatic
Sorry I should have been specific. The "available remedies" section doesn't
really support your assertion about the recovery. But yeah it's basically
always lower than civil torts and you're otherwise totally right.

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fungiblecog
I doubt a valve is novel enough to be patented, and the 3D design was reverse
engineered so it is not covered by Copyright. I doubt these guys have any kind
of case that would stand up in court

~~~
Ballas
I don't think it counts as reverse engineered if you had access to the
original - ie if you take measurements to reproduce it, you are copying it,
not reverse engineering.

~~~
tlrobinson
Measuring the physical attributes of something certainly counts as "reverse
engineering".

You might be thinking of clean room design [1], where one team does the
reverse engineering and writes spec, and another team implements it from the
spec.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design)

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torpfactory
At least in criminal law there is the concept of "necessity". That is, an
illegal activity may in certain cases be legal, if it is necessary to prevent
serious harm.

Since the manufacturer was unable to supply the part, I would argue that 3D
printing it was most certainly a "necessity", at least until either patients
stop requiring it, or more parts can be procured.

There are some civil law analogs such as being able to trespass someone else's
property in emergency situations.

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spamalot159
This makes me feel gross. I know what they're doing is totally legal, but it
just feels wrong in this circumstance.

~~~
1996
As I said before, I want to see which jury will convict them for
counterfeiting!

The manufacturer may threaten, huff and puff, but juries are filled with
human, who will feel same same wrongness we do.

In theory, everybody cares about FDA certification and all the legal details
like HIPPA and stuff.

In practice, when SHTF ie in a situation like 9/11, most humans beings seem to
do the best they can with what they have.

No one should refuse to act just by fear of being sued for doing something,
when inaction will guarantee the death of other human beings.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22590069](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22590069)

~~~
adrianN
I'm not familiar with the Italian legal system, but I would be surprised if a
patent dispute goes before a jury.

~~~
anticensor
Italian criminal courts implement bench trial, not jury trial.

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thomasfl
The manufacturer has given tinkerers another good reason to make fully open
source 3d printable reanimation machine.

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fsdafsdfddss
Why aren't we naming and shaming the manufacturer? This is immoral.

~~~
kyberias
Because most people have brains and don't act instinctively to everything.

~~~
Johnny555
What in this online world would make you say such a thing? It seems that the
opposite is true more often than not.

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gibolt
Would be too bad if that valve's 3D file happened to leak online...

------
ISL
I guess I was wrong, again....

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22588619](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22588619)

Are the manufacturers forced by any legal precedent to sue in order to defend
their patents?

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manmal
Charging this kind of money for a valve should come with an agreement to
produce enough of said valve, or providing the 3D file for emergencies like
that. It’s actually in manufacturers‘ best interest - imagine we get this kind
of scenario more often. I think it’s quite possible that a grey market for 3D
printed medical parts will develop as a result, bringing down prices a lot.
And it will be tolerated by governments because they saw this happen.

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ada1981
Why aren’t we working to create a 3D print file of this ourselves and
releasing it?

If other hospitals do indeed need this valve, we should be spending our time
doing this.

~~~
clort
in order to copy a part, you need one of them to measure.

edit: also, you really need a working machine to ensure that the design that
you have created works is properly functional

~~~
ada1981
It would be great for someone to get a part to a 3D print file maker.

~~~
ada1981
Update: we got the 3D print file.

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TwoBit
Seems like a variation of the price gouging people have been inflamed about
recently.

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xenospn
Very, very bad PR.

~~~
i_am_nomad
Except the company isn’t named anywhere, as far as I can tell. So at the
moment it’s not any kind of PR.

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chrismcb
So I don't know Italian or European parent law. But how would this be illegal?
It appears the part was redesigned from scratch, so I don't it used any
process that is patented. Of course maybe patent law is different over there.
I also realize it is possible this company is simply try to intimidate. Just
wondering if they actually have legal staggering.

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CyberFonic
By witholding the supply of valves the management of are conspiring to murder.
Issue arrest warrants for the entire management. When lives are at stake,
playing hardball with insatiable capitalists might do the trick.

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bronzeage
This crisis will force us to rethink patent laws and healthcare regulations.
under the current circumstances, patent laws and other laws designed to give
the medical industry Monopoly over their creations are preventing life saving
actions. We will eventually reach a point where a vaccine / cure is found, and
instead of allowing all possible companies to manufacture it, patent laws will
delay things and actively cause thousands of deaths from those delays.

~~~
Retric
The US government can already legally ignore patents. Or simply keep them
sealed them for national security reasons:
[https://www.bitlaw.com/source/35usc/181.html](https://www.bitlaw.com/source/35usc/181.html)

Finally, forced licensing is another option.

~~~
pdelbarba
They do it with software licensing for sure. There are almost certainly
satellites and weapons systems out there with GPL code in them but good luck
proving it.

------
grecy
COVID-19 is bringing to the surface more and more fascinating cases where
under "normal" circumstances Capitalism and making a profit is a good thing,
but under just a little bit of pressure, suddenly it's evil.

Canada have just made it illegal ($5000 fine) for trying to profit off sales
of toilet paper or sanitizer, and listings for them have been banned from eBay
and Kijiji (Canada's version of Craigslist). Of course, under normal
circumstances it's perfectly fine for Nike to make a pair of shoes for $3
(paying people terrible wages) and then sell them for $300 dollars. Their
share price goes up and the Capitalists are happy.

Under normal circumstances patents are a good way to protect IP, and nobody
cared last month that a part was $11,000 dollars and they had a monopoly on
making it.

As one twitter post said "COVID-19 is a blacklight and it's revealing a lot of
nasty stains on our Capitalist society"

~~~
throwaway894345
I never understand these capitalism criticisms. It’s like criticizing modern
medicine because Coronavirus exists. Yeah, it’s not a perfect system but I’m
not going to switch to homeopathy just yet.

~~~
dguaraglia
Your analogy makes no sense. Modern medicine didn't create, or even encourage
the creation of, the coronavirus. Price gouging is very much an obvious
consequence of unbridled capitalism.

~~~
LanceH
That is fucking rich. You obviously never tried buying something in the USSR.
Or when rationing was in effect during WW2. Or medicinal alcohol during
prohibition. All government regulated supply resulting in a very expensive
secondary market. Black markets _thrive_ under systems other than capitalism
where price gouging is the exception rather than the rule.

~~~
perceptronas
Yes you are right. Even with laws preventing price gouging people will
sell/buy what they want. If sellers/buyers cannot do that in government
regulated market - they will do that in the black markets

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Supermancho
Please stop linking to Techdirt. That is not a news source. TD is a self-
proclaimed rumormill.

