
Pixels Don’t Care (2013) - jw2013
http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care
======
shubhamjain
As an amateur programmer and a part-time freelancer, I didn't have a slightest
clue about the value of my work. It was only 5-6 years back when I gladly did
small gigs on Want-to-Hire forums for tens of dollars.

One particular gig was about scrapping data from a car sales website which I
completed for $30 (should have cost at least 10x). The client discussed about
the possibility of converting the phone numbers, which were obfuscated as
plain images, to plain text. Without ado, I fired up my editor to explore the
problem. It proved to atrociously difficult as I didn't have any background in
anything similar but with the help from my brother, I was able to make a
scrappy algorithm that worked.

I reported back my progress and asked for additional $25 for it but the client
refused, saying that he hadn't given his final say. I was dejected but felt
foolish more than anything else. Looking back, I can't help think how anyone
would pain in giving something as meagre as $25 (at least, for someone in
United States) for a someone's hard work.

If there is one thing I can glean from my story and author's is that
businesses, at least most of them, are ruthless. It doesn't matter who runs
them, it's just an unspoken rule that you don't give what you don't owe. You
don't shower sympathy or, do things that aren't in business' best interest
(long term / short term). The only thing you can—and should—do is be ruthless
yourself. Negotiate for more confidently. Move on if you're undervalued. Never
think of owing anything to any entity.

~~~
simonhamp
Whilst I've probably been in a similar situation at some point or another in
my past (albeit in the UK), and can very much sympathise with your story, I
can't possibly agree with your final premise.

Ruthlessness is not what makes for a happy work life.

You absolutely should call out the thankless and unappreciative! Perhaps they
really are just poorly informed about how long things take or the knowledge
that makes it possible (however unlikely)... that's still no excuse.

And to "treat others as they treat you" is a slippery slope that can quickly
get you a bad reputation.

Don't be afraid to do things differently, you will be happier for it.

~~~
zaphar
Doing things differently has consistently given me more and better
opportunities than ruthlessness. In a way it makes me stand out from the
crowd. I tend to be asked to lead teams with poor morale or interpersonal
tensions. Usually I'm able to negotiate the power to be able to make the
changes necessary for that team to perform better and have a better work
experience. The company wins because the engineers perform better. The
employees win because they have a better work experience.

In the cases where I am unable to negotiate such things I don't stick around.
Any company that doesn't see the employee/employer relationship as a two way
street is no company I want to work for.

------
janwillemb
The article is from 2013, the guy has gone to greener pastures since then,
quite literally: he's "farming trees".[1]

[1] [https://mobile.twitter.com/kneath](https://mobile.twitter.com/kneath)

~~~
galfarragem
Interesting read from his blog:
[http://warpspire.com/posts/next](http://warpspire.com/posts/next)

~~~
dahart
"Psychology, emotion, and interpersonal relationships play a far greater role
in shaping policy than any objective fact. Unlike many, I don’t see this as a
problem or a bug. It’s just how large groups of people make decisions. We are
not robots. We’re leaky bags of meat that have no inclination toward
rationality."

Pretty insightful thinking there for a programmer, if you ask me. As a group,
we tend to focus on rational facts and ignore the emotional aspects all too
often. I also quite enjoy reading Kyle's struggle with how to find happiness
and fulfillment. I absolutely love writing software, but after 30 years of it,
I'm also struggling to find happiness in it. It is starting to feel more like
an addiction than a fulfilling pursuit of life that will help me grow.

~~~
janwillemb
> It is starting to feel more like an addiction than a fulfilling pursuit of
> life that will help me grow.

Exactly how I felt it. Addiction-driven development. I found a different
purpose in life a few years ago (religiously inspired). I started investing
time in other fields and in people, for example homeless people. The big (and
not entirely unforeseen) disadvantage was that I felt that my knowledge was
gradually aging, because I didn't keep up so well as before. This turned out
not to be a problem after all, you don't need to be in the front lines all the
time.

------
gnrlist
Just like in sports, you get paid more for what you have done vs what you
could do.

Having a few really good pieces of work to show off is no guarantee that
you'll consistently pump out good work, or that you haven't left clients high
and dry before. Since a third party has no real way of gauging that except by
your track record, they're taking more of a chance on someone with less of a
track record. More risk means they need more reward, which means you get paid
less.

Most of us COULD run a Fortune 500 company as well as the average CEO but we
won't get the chance, nor compensation, until we have the experience.

~~~
nailer
I honestly do not think most of us could.

I hand out with three groups of people: geeks, hacks and lawyers. All of them
often easily think they could easily do any other job. This includes the
lawyers and journalists thinking that making software is easy. Based on that,
I think we're as deluded as they are.

~~~
ben_w
Agreed. I know that "fudiciary duty" is a thing, but not what it involves.
There are laws about accounting standards, but I can't even say what standard
accountants need to rech to know those standards. I only found put a year ago
that, in the UK, the (director?) of a Limited company can become personally
liable for company debts if they trade while insolvent.

Import and export laws? Nope. Which parts of an employment contract are
enforceable? Nope. Minimum standards for office temperature, cleanliness,
health and safety? Nope. How much unpaid overtime you can make your employees
do, and how that intersects with minimum wage rules. Nope.

Copyright, trademark and patent laws I _think_ I get, but I don't know them
inside-out.

~~~
stdbrouw
But that's not what people mean when they say they could run a Fortune 500
company if given the chance. All of the things you list are things that are
easily learned, the bigger question is whether in addition to that knowledge
the CEOs of big companies have any particular character traits, unique skills
or business insights or not.

~~~
jimbokun
Why do you think learning all of those things would be "easy"?

~~~
amyjess
It depends on how you define "easy".

I have a feeling that if I took all the time and energy I've put into studying
and working with computers my entire life and chose to put all that time and
energy into studying and working with business concepts instead, I'd be able
to run a business, possibly even a Fortune 500 one.

Alas I _didn 't_ spend all that time and energy on business, so I can't run a
Fortune 500 company, but alternate universe me might.

------
aj7
That's great Kyle. I once worked for a German laser company where promotions
to the highest positions were based mainly on physical height.

~~~
Kenji
Bloody hell. What? Did that company do well? Is sounds like this promotion
scheme is a fast way to bankruptcy.

------
libeclipse
I've experienced this too, not the discrimination in work, but the realisation
that on the internet no one cares about anything but your work.

I've been a part of a lot of different communities. Hell, when I was a kid in
a MW2 clan on the internet, no one there cared about anything but skill in the
game. In programming and hacking communities, no one cared about anything but
skill either.

It's a brilliant place you know. On the internet, you can be whoever you want
to be and it doesn't matter.

~~~
zaphar
The flip side is that as soon as you become more than just pixels on a screen
it can change in an instant. Just ask anyone who ever experienced being dox'd.
As long as all you are is pixels on a screen it's great. As soon as you become
more than pixels on a screen the story can change really fast. It turns out
the pixels only influence people opinion of you when there is nothing else to
base it on. I'm not so sure that's necessarily something to celebrate.

------
pasta
This sounds similar to a post of a blind programmer.

Those are good arguments for privacy.

Sometimes you got something to hide. Not a crime but because you don't want to
be discriminated.

Sad that it has to be this way.

~~~
mistercow
To me, this is the _main_ argument for privacy. When I hear people say "I've
got nothing to hide, so I've got nothing to fear", I immediately think "Well
aren't you lucky?"

Having nothing to hide is a privilege, but the weird thing about that
mentality is that I think very few people _actually_ have that privilege. How
many people, for example, would not be negatively impacted if the text
conversations around their last relationship breakup were made public?

We all have vulnerabilities, and privacy is about choosing who we trust to
know them. So anyone who believes that they have nothing to hide is either
unaware of how dangerous the world is, or hasn't properly taken stock of what
could be used against them, and how. Discrimination is one of the most common
ways that your vulnerabilities can used against you, but it's not the only
one.

~~~
matt4077
I've thought about, and used, two possibly opposing, strategies to make life
easier for others:

(a) Insist on privacy especially when you have "nothing to hide". I once
refused to send a photo with an application (which is still a thing with the
really slow-to-adapt companies in my country). I'm square in the majority in
any characteristic a photo may reveal, but I was hoping to give some cover to
those who don't want to give a photo for whatever reason, and fear being
judged just for that.

(b): I'm rather careless with some information that others would be afraid to
reveal, hoping to normalize it ever so slightly. There are still too many
things that are really really common, but taboo to mention because nobody
knows how common they are because it's taboo... Examples may be mental health
issues, being bisexual/poly/etc.

Also, if you are in high regard and can afford it, you can do everyone a
favour by rejecting certain common but harmful practices: Are you no longer
productive at 4pm because you didn't sleep well? Go home!

~~~
jstanley
> Also, if you are in high regard and can afford it, you can do everyone a
> favour by rejecting certain common but harmful practices

While I agree, it's important that this is perceived as "this is how things
should work" rather than "I'm high status so I can do this but you can't".

------
erdojo
Talent and experience aren't the same thing, and they both affect
compensation.

Talent can produce a better result than experience, but experience is almost
always more consistent. There's added value in consistency for companies.
That's not discrimination (ugh), it's a business reality.

~~~
Radle
Exactly this is why the client get's billed 20 times what Kyle earns.

It's just a lack of experience, if Kyle would man up and accept her place it
would all work out.

BULLSHIT

~~~
aaronbasssett
They bill out 20x what he earns because they're not just billing for his time.
They're billing for the time of the sales person who chased the lead, the time
of the team who read the brief and developed the proposal, the time of the
people who travelled to the client to deliver the presentation, the time of
the secretary who handled the callback and the time of all the people who did
all the same things the half a dozen other times where they DIDN'T get the
contract.

------
tyingq
Good for him. I had a similar experience. Had to slog it out at low wages long
enough to have a real work history with recognizable clients.

He seems a little more bitter about it than I was. Trust is part of the game,
and people just naturally, and subconsciously look for signals that you're the
real deal.

~~~
Baeocystin
I think he would benefit from putting a little more thought in to why people
might judge someone very young as being responsible enough/capable enough/etc.
It is not just, or even mostly, prejudice.

------
mxfh
_For the first time in human history, its possible to be represented (almost)
solely through the merits of your work._

Like anonymous works can't exist in the physical space?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_work](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_work)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anonymous_artists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anonymous_artists)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anonymously_published_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anonymously_published_works)

------
nfriedly
This reminds me of my early years - I started doing in web dev work in High
School and was excited to be making more than minimum wage!

I started freelancing about halfway through college and quickly learned to
hide the fact that I was a student, and my age in general. I recall one of my
early clients that had a very distinct negative change in how he treated me
after he learned that I was still in college.

I can't complain too much, though, most clients treated me well and I charged
enough that I was able to graduate debt free.

------
dzamo_norton
The author feels that his height counted against him, but did anyone actually
say "sorry you're too short?". It would be strange client or employer who
insisted on a tall developer while age I can accept is a factor for people out
there, rightly or wrongly. I'm suggesting that it could be possible to project
an inherent sensitivity about one's height onto a separate experience.

~~~
josecastillo
That may well be a factor in what's going on, but for whatever reason, there
is evidence [1] of a height-based pay gap in hiring and compensation. We're
seldom aware of our subconscious biases, but they still influence our actions
all the time.

[1]
[http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/standing.aspx](http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/standing.aspx)

------
emilioolivares
Pixels don't care, but businesses care a lot about who their vendors are.
Specifically, business owners want to buy from companies that can provide more
than a result.

They need to mitigate business risk so they look for vendors that will: 1\.
Exist as long as their solution is being used 2\. Provide adequate support 3\.
Are legally accountable for their products and services 4\. Have the proper
processes in place for things like billing and invoices

Having raw talent is just part of the business puzzle. There are a lot of
start-ups or freelancers that can "fake it until they make it" but it's
because they really understand how a small business or corporation makes
buying decisions.

------
tajen
Sometimes I want to take interns from minorities and teach them both technical
skills and the network to get a job through the Internet.

Them I remember taking them as interns is part of the discrimination; and
they'll be better promoted in physical companies where they can invoke anti-
discrimination laws, rather than being only promoted by their skills.

Then remains those who are really discriminated against: Those who are neither
protected by being good-looking nor by the laws, like the (short) author.

Pixels don't care, but next time you read statistics about how white people
are paid more than average, remember which side this guy falls on, now that he
succeeded. The strange world of statistics.

------
EGreg
And this is why I think fulltime employment is the wrong way to go for many
people today.

In fact the whole "we are an institution and you are a peon" mentality needs
to be disrupted.

More companies should hire on a project basis and share the revenues. More
companies should try holacracy and abolish a top down chain of command for
everything.

Then people can really will be compensated on their merit, ie their
contributions.

In our own company, I laid out how we do it
[https://qbix.com/blog](https://qbix.com/blog) ... would welcome your
thoughts.

~~~
alexchamberlain
To be honest, I don't like the Qbix Compensation Model. One reason to work for
someone else is that they are taking the risk. Within reason, no matter what I
do at work, I'll get paid the same at the end of the month. Yes, there is the
risk the company could go out of business (a form of job security I guess),
and yes, I would expect a fair annual review, but ultimately, I'm able to plan
in the medium term for a consistent income.

~~~
EGreg
Stability at the cost of autonomy breeds complacency, which is the opposite of
OP's attitude. Presumably he lived with his parents. But he wants to be paid
for his work commensurate with his contributions.

Means tested welfare has the same problems as full time employment: people are
so used to that paycheck that they are afraid to do rock the boat and work on
something meaningful in ther lives. They just drive the same truck every day,
until they lose their job.

In fact, even Adam Smith proposed the free market as a way to achieve equality
among men. Even socialist anarchists like Oscar Wilde were most incensed by
the degrading nature of the employer-employee relationship.

You don't need this model for everyone. Just for those who are sick and tired
of playing office politics and pretending to work 8 hour days becauss they
finished in 2 hours and can't be seen doing anything productive for anyone
else, since the company can sue them.

------
pnathan
There's something wonderful to be gained by detaching from identities and
considering only the work. Hard to do, but can be very empowering.

------
pitaj
Great story. I came upon my current job in a similar fashion, and I love it.

Can a mod change the title to read (2013) since this article is fairly old,
though?

------
dang
Discussed at the time:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5130559](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5130559).

------
dhruvkar
I'm going to be downvoted for this.

While privacy is important, and a meritocracy is, well, meritocratic, these
systems weren't formed overnight, and aren't even necessarily accepted as
'right' in many parts of the world. Historically, social barriers (e.g.
discrimination against short people) are changed through exposure, discussion
and sometimes fighting. Writing a post like this is only part of the answer.
Taking the opportunity to understand the bias and discussing it with those who
hold opposing viewpoints is another part of the answer.

Privacy is a right, don't use it as a crutch.

~~~
bjourne
I don't understand what your point is. Is it that Kyle Neath should take a
stronger role in the fight against (height/age/gender/race/....)
discrimination? It is probably hard because if you are working full-time as a
software dev, you don't have much time to also lead a social struggle.

~~~
dhruvkar
Sorry, 2am haze. My point is that instead of accepting privacy as the answer
to the discrimination issue, use the opportunity to make the case that this
needs to be talked about. The post did part of the 'talking', but the
conclusion negated this. I read it as 'we shouldn't be discriminated against,
therefore let's not give them anything to discriminate against'. That's not
how social change is brought about.

------
carrot
Just want to say, I appreciate this.

------
sheharyarn
Loved the post. I've been through something similar.

------
0xcde4c3db
Previously known as "on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog" [1].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet%2C_nobody_know...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet%2C_nobody_knows_you're_a_dog)

~~~
dom0
In the IoT age: On the internet, nobody knows you're a fridge.

~~~
ansgri
Conversely: anybody knows what's in your fridge better than you do.

------
kneath
Author here. Hacker News has long ago blacklisted/blackholed my domain (I am
often critical of YCombinator's investment strategies), but the original post
can be found on my blog [http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-
care](http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care) — with apostrophes!

~~~
ploggingdev
I don't know the full backstory of why your domain was blacklisted, but if
it's _only_ because of your criticism of YC, that sounds wrong and I'm sure
the HN moderators will be happy to remove your domain from the blacklist.

Also, what is the #caboose channel on freenode about? I tried joining to see
what it's about, but it looks like it's invite only.

~~~
kneath
Caboose was an invite-only group of rubyists interested in rails early on. At
the time I joined it was a group of decent humans who would answer your
questions, share their work, and banter about the rails ecosystem. I haven't
idled there in a long time, so I can't say I know much about it's current
makeup.

------
ars
Was anyone else distracted by the lack of apostrophes?

I guess semantically they aren't necessary since there is no missing
information but for some reason I found it distracting anyway.

~~~
DamonHD
I found the swearing more distracting, but then I'm apparently old-
fashioned...

Rgds

Damon

~~~
SquareWheel
Please don't sign your comments on Hacker News. It's against the site
guidelines, and ultimately clutters the page.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
alexmorenodev
I honestly thought it was a joke about being old fashioned.

------
redders6600
... But we care about pixels. Particularly the few that make up apostrophes.

~~~
orr721
Read the original: [http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-
care](http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care)

