
FoldingText – Plain text productivity for Mac users - sndean
http://www.foldingtext.com/
======
mutahhir
One of the developers of Foldingtext here. Man, I was blown away to find
Foldingtext on the front page of Hacker News today :)!

We're working hard behind the scenes to release the next major version in
beta. It'll add a bunch of things that we feel will take FoldingText to the
next level. Follow us on twitter (@foldingtext |
[https://twitter.com/foldingtext](https://twitter.com/foldingtext)) if you're
interested to hear about FoldingText development.

P.S. For the Vim enthusiasts, I'm really pushing to get vim support in the
upcoming FoldingText beta ;)

~~~
be_erik
Vim support would certainly get me to purchase this. Are you planning on using
nvim as a backend or are you going to roll your own emulation?

~~~
mutahhir
Emulation probably. Haven’t looked into nvim as a backend, will check it out.

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chipotle_coyote
FoldingText isn't really a "minimalistic live Markdown focus mode" app, it's a
productivity app, closer to something like Emacs' org-mode. I have no doubt
that org-mode _is_ more powerful, if you're already living in Emacs. (I can
use Emacs, but I just can't get into it as a way of life.)

But FT isn't really being actively developed anymore, AFAICT. The developer
switched from working on TaskPaper to FoldingText and then switched back to
TaskPaper. Before TaskPaper he was working on WriteRoom, which _was_ a minimal
Markdown app, and sometimes it comes back and sometimes it doesn't. TaskPaper
is pretty neat, but when push comes to shove it could be implemented as an
extension/package for nearly any competent text editor. (And in fact has for
several, including Atom. Folding Text also existed as a plugin for Atom at one
point.)

~~~
mutahhir
We're still working on FoldingText :)! However, a lot of that has been behind
the scenes as we're working on a new version from the ground up. We're hoping
to start private beta in a couple of months.

~~~
rem1313
Would that be a paid upgrade? I like the idea of FoldingText, but paying twice
would be a bummer :)

~~~
mutahhir
It will be a paid upgrade. I'm sure we can work out how to migrate our
customers who have bought FoldingText recently, but, honestly, we still have
to figure out these aspects. Right now, we're heads-down on getting the beta
out :).

Also, while FT is in beta it will have a significant discount.

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strmpnk
This looks like iA Writer meets org-mode. It looks nice but the platform
limitation is a bit discouraging for those of us that work across multiple
platforms on a daily basis.

~~~
mutahhir
Re: the platform limitation.

This is something we're trying to address with the upcoming beta. You can
follow us on twitter: @foldingtext, to get news about the beta when we start
rolling it out.

~~~
FreezerburnV
As someone who uses Windows at home, iOS to "run my life", and Linux at work,
I'm very interested in things that can run across multiple platforms. And as
someone who regularly uses Workflowy, what are some things that FoldingText
brings to the table that WF doesn't? (aka: why might I want to switch if I
were able to use it across the platforms I need to have available?)

~~~
reubenswartz
Yes, very curious how this compares/contrasts with Workflowy. Cool app!

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delhanty
OT:

I'd be interested to know where folding editors first originated?

We have org-mode now of course.

My first encounter was 28 years ago now - December 1989 - an in-house editor
called Teddy written by "Burkhard" that we had running on Vax - for Parasolid
development in Cambridge, UK - think it dated from 1987 or earlier.

~~~
delhanty
Then I remember David Lavender joining Parasolid in 1992 - not liking Teddy
that much - a little bit of elisp later he had folds working in Emacs. *

So folds in Emacs date from at least 1992.

* It could occasionally create corrupt folded files though, which was annoying if he checked them in to the SCM.

~~~
qualitytime
Yes, 1992, by a classmate friend of mine Jamie Lokier!

[https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/folding.el](https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/folding.el)

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agentultra
Really cool project!

I'm a heavy org-mode user but one of the disappointing aspects of org-mode is
that non-emacs users have a tough time contributing to documents; especially
if I use advanced features like org-babel, spreadsheets, and the like.

I hold out hope that one day there will be a standalone org-mode editor for
non-emacs users.

Folding Text seems to have many of the same features... I might have to check
it out. :)

~~~
hsitz
What do you mean "non-emacs users have a tough time contributing to
documents"?

I would be surprised if FT has more than, say, 10% of the features of org-
mode. If you want to restrict yourself to the basics (e.g., the 10% that FT
does) then org-mode is quite simple to use.

Of course, org-mode is in Emacs, and that will turn some people away. For
others, the flexibility and power of Emacs may be the main draw. I myself am
someone who migrated to Emacs from Vim, primarily because of org-mode, and I
now use the Evil vim emulator, which makes things quite good.

~~~
agentultra
> _What do you mean "non-emacs users have a tough time contributing to
> documents"?_

If I use org-mode files for anything more than markup such as org-babel,
ditaa, properties, spreadsheets, scheduling, etc it requires all of the org-
mode baggage that only exists in emacs but is what makes org-mode more useful
than markdown.

But even some of the more advanced org-mode features have to be manually
managed if you're trying to contribute to an org-document project and are
using something other than Emacs.

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ollysb
Wow this exactly the app I want :) I've been using IA Writer for as long as I
can remember as my developer todo app. Having some more developer oriented
features in the same format is perfect!

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n1000
Currently in love with typora.io

Less features but an excellent markdown editor for Mac, Windows, and Ubuntu

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bgrohman
I'm using vim with text files already, and Pandoc for converting markdown into
other formats as needed. Hard to imagine paying $30 for a worse editing
experience that only works on Mac. Maybe I'm not representative of the target
market?

~~~
jhoechtl
You know this is Apple culture. Pay for crap you get elsewhere for free.

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ninjakeyboard
It's like org-mode for normies.

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rcarmo
Really neat, especially focus mode. I don’t think we’ve problem space of note
taking plus outliners yet, so anything with a new twist is welcome (and all
the more so if it doesn’t use any weird formats).

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nishs
This reminds me of TaskPaper, an excellent plain text todo list app for Mac
that worked the same way. It's evolved since its early years, but you can
still use the original v1 for free.

[https://www.taskpaper.com/](https://www.taskpaper.com/)

[http://support.hogbaysoftware.com/t/where-can-i-download-
old...](http://support.hogbaysoftware.com/t/where-can-i-download-older-
versions-1-2-of-taskpaper/1754)

~~~
sawyerjhood
After downloading FoldingText, the user guide states that the author of
FoldingText also made TaskPaper.

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AlphaGeekZulu
This looks like a small sub-set of org-mode to me. I like their homepage
design and the logo very much.

~~~
gglitch
I watched the demo and realized I didn't know how to collapse all org branches
but current, so I glanced at the documentation but didn't see it. That would
frequently be useful to me. I suppose you could cycle global to collapsed and
then reopen the current?

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theodorewiles
so.... org mode? but you have to pay for it?

~~~
agumonkey
not sure org mode is a superset of it, now it can and probably will absord the
ideas demonstrated there; the timer thing was more than great.

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hoetmaaiers
Makes me think of the way Bear.app inplemented Markdown mode into its note
taking experience. Looks similar.

~~~
mratzloff
Having compared the two, I prefer Bear. It's great; I highly recommend it.
Looks good and has some thoughtful touches.

[http://bear-writer.com](http://bear-writer.com)

~~~
zaphod4prez
I had _huge_ problems with Bear. It repeatedly lost files and text and behaved
in several other totally unacceptable ways. Have you ever had this problem
with it?

~~~
mratzloff
OK, that's really good to know. I haven't had that experience but perhaps it
occurs when syncing? I've never used that feature (don't need it; free is fine
for me).

------
stevewillows
This app looks pretty good, but this thread got me looking into org-mode,
which got me wondering if there was something similar for Atom. It turns out
that there is Organized, which is pretty damn close.

In a world where there seems to be a new to do list coming out every week,
I've never been able to simply replace a plaintext file. Organized gives a
handy little sidebar with a todo list (simple do [TODO] blah blah) and also an
agenda.

For relatively light / non-coders like me, who don't spend their day in emacs
or vim, this looks to be the perfect solution.

[1] [https://atom.io/packages/organized](https://atom.io/packages/organized)

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sridca
It would be cool if this used MindNode documents as a backend. This way I get
a org-mode like view of the notes in my mindmaps through FoldingText, while
retaining the ability to view/edit mindmaps in MindNode.

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chadk
Love it. Use it daily. I even use it with iA Writer and nvAlt.

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simooooo
I just use vscode with markdown preview. Similar experience

------
aportnoy
Not sure how this is different from the million similar "clean minimalistic
live Markdown focus mode" apps.

~~~
mutahhir
FoldingText is minimal only in terms of its UI. Behind the scenes, it parses
your document, allows folding, focusing, builds an internal structure that can
be queried using a query language based on XPath, and allows modes (think
plugins) like todo lists, calculator, and schedules.

Would be happy to answer any questions you have, and FoldingText comes with a
trial so give it a shot to see how different it is.

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pkamb
I wish the screenshots and video showed the window chrome. Is this a normal
Mac app with normal windows, etc.?

~~~
guessmyname
[1] macOS app —
[https://i.imgur.com/ioZyy4A.png](https://i.imgur.com/ioZyy4A.png)

[2] app tree —
[https://pastebin.com/raw/URDzmRLJ](https://pastebin.com/raw/URDzmRLJ)

~~~
doe88
Thanks, from your second link it seems to use
[https://codemirror.net/](https://codemirror.net/)

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gvamsikris
Any similar alternatives for Windows ?

~~~
kilian
I built [https://fromscratch.rocks](https://fromscratch.rocks) which has a lot
of the features, and is free :)

------
jessegrosjean
Hi, this is Jesse. I am original designer/creator of FoldingText. Mutahhir has
since taken the project over while I continue to work on TaskPaper and
WriteRoom. I see a number of FoldingText history questions. I'll try to answer
all of those here.

The idea of FoldingText evolved from:

1\. Out of college I got to work on the Jazz ZUI (Zooming User Interface)
toolkit and then build it's successor Piccolo.
[http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/piccolo/](http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/piccolo/).
For me this was a super cool project to work on. I liked to take notes and
tried/build various ZUI notes apps. Great fun but I always ended up using
plain text files on my desktop instead of fancy ZUI app.

2\. I gave up on ZUI for notes and decided instead to build Hog Bay Notebook,
a Mac app for notes. Similar concept to Evernote (but a few years before I
think). Database of text files with a full text index for searching. After a
few years I was making my living selling this app, but I would still tend to
go back to keeping my notes on desktop in TextEdit.

3\. Around this time [https://ulyssesapp.com](https://ulyssesapp.com) added
"full screen mode" to their app. Was a popular feature, but Ulysses was a big
app with lots of other features that I didn't really want. So I spent a week
making WriteRoom 1.0. WriteRoom was a very basic text editor with one
feature... that it could zoom into a nice fullscreen mode. It originated the
term "Distraction free writing"... so yeah for that! :) This quickly sold
better then my notebook program which had at that point I'd put years of work
into.

4\. This lead me to the conclusion that there's a market and need for simple
text based alternatives to "major" apps. Many people saw WriteRoom as a MS
Word alternative, even though it was much, much, simpler.

5\. At the time 2005/2006 "Getting Things Done" apps were becoming popular,
but they were pretty complicated. Lots of chrome surrounding a simple list of
tasks. I created TaskPaper as a simple text alternative to OmniFocus. The
original versions were just a little syntax highliting built into TextEdit.
But over time I wanted a better solution for handling large complex todo lists
and so started building in outlining and filtering into the app. After a few
years the end result is that TaskPaper is an outliner data model
presented/edited through a plain text editor.

6\. At this point we get to FoldingText. I didn't want to keep bolting
features onto TaskPaper... I wanted it to stay "Plain text todo lists". But
TaskPaper's underlying outliner model with a text UI seemed like it would be
good a many other things. FoldingText was my attempt to generalize the outline
mode/plain text UI into a platform that other's could extend. Along the way I
decided to use Markdown as the plain text format that would define the
underlying outline structure. I regret that decision. It added a lot of
complexity (keeping markdown parsed into runtime outliner model) and made most
people think of FoldingText mostly as a markdown editor. FoldingText become a
good markdown editor, but the Markdown focus clouded the bigger goal for me.

7\. By this time there were 4 of us working at Hog Bay Software. Mutahhir and
I worked mostly on FoldingText. And then Mac apps stopped selling so fast and
we didn't' have money to continue. Hog Bay Software had to shrink down to only
me again. And I didn't have resources to keep working on all the apps. So I've
refocused to work on TaskPaper and WriteRoom again. While Muthahhir has taken
over the FoldingText project and is working on a big release soon.

Along the way I've looked to lots of apps for inspiration.

Early outliners in particular. But while I like them, they are problematic on
how constraining they are when editing... they are field based so you only
edit one line at a time. That's why I prefer using the outliner data model,
but presented as unconstrained plain text editor.

Besides the history described above FoldingText was most inspired by the
Cannon Cat. Maybe not so much in every feature and implementation, but in the
large idea of a text based user interface.

~~~
accordionclown
very interesting history, jesse. been observing your work for a long time.
loved the reference to the canon cat (not "cannon"). also tickled by the idea
of downloading a .pdf from "ftp.apple.asimov.net" with "jefraskin" in its
name; 2017 giving props to the past. never really understood the benefit of
"folding" per se, since anything not shown on the screen is "out of sight"
anyway. albeit an outline view is great, especially when you can click into
any section. nonetheless, love the fact that you (and others) continue
experimenting with the plain-text writing interface. keep on keeping on.

------
tbortels
"Free Download" \- but it is actually a time-limited demo, and has a $30
license. Dirty Pool. If I can't trust you to not bait-and-switch, I can't
trust you.

~~~
mutahhir
Sorry, that wasn’t the intention of that link, but I can see how it can be
misleading. Will change it to ‘Try for free’ or something clearer, soon.

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hugocbp
That looks really good. Already downloading to test it out.

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mosselman
The price seems a bit steep. Is there support for copy-pasting images? Where
are the timers as shown in the video?

~~~
mutahhir
There is currently no support for adding media to documents, as they’re just
plain text. It might be something we’ll consider moving forward with the new
version.

The timers can be started by using the ‘schedule’ mode. Just add ‘.schedule’
to the end of a heading and then start adding time lines underneath. The video
is getting dated now, time to re-record :)

------
j7ake
Looks promising. How would one deal with attachments or images ? Is that
possible with foldingtext?

~~~
mutahhir
Not yet, but hopefully we can add this ability moving forward with the new
version.

------
putinontheritz
What benefits does this have over Atom, Sublime and Textmate?

~~~
jessegrosjean
The intro video at [http://www.foldingtext.com](http://www.foldingtext.com)
does a pretty good job of showing what's unique about FoldingText.

The apps you've listed all do "folding". But I don't think they can
hoist/focusing a particular section. Or filter the view. Or have modes such as
schedule mode. Also general the look/feel is quite different between the apps.

~~~
putinontheritz
Thanks, I did watch the video but I just don’t see it being any better
outright. I’m only in a phone right now so I guess it will have to be a test
drive to really see it.

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callahanrts
org mode + workflowy?

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MasterPI
Similar to this is the PlainTasks plug-in for Sublime.

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narven
org mode cloned

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konart
vscode + some plugin.

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geezk7
Do you even emacs bro?

