
A Walk in Hong Kong - haasted
https://idlewords.com/2019/08/a_walk_in_hong_kong.htm
======
spyckie2
This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong
Kong during the protests.

References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I
respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK.

I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem -

> Do not go gentle into that good night.

> Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

The people here have a heart to fight for their own identity and for their
well-being. It's actually really amazing especially with the immense
challenges facing them and the great risks they have as a people.

At the same time, when two parties disagree in Asian culture, it rarely turns
towards resolution. Most of the time it turns towards silence (separating,
parting ways, or just pretending it never happened), violence (intense
arguments, passive aggressive pay back, hatred and villainfication of both
sides leading to all out war), or just a lot of stiffness / unwillingness to
compromise, understand the other side or reach a deal.

This reflection is not just about the protests, although the escalation is due
to the culture being this way. It happens everywhere, the biggest pet peeve of
mine is that it's a normal, accepted practice. For instance, if you don't like
your boss, you don't say anything, you just hold it in and then you send in
your resignation. I wish the culture would be more willing to engage in
conflict resolution type conversation and learn how to do it. It takes a lot
of practice on both sides to do it.

~~~
davedx
What exactly is Asian culture?

~~~
athrowayyyy
The idea that "the other culture" is some sort of inscrutable, mysterious
entity that's completely alien to any kind of understanding or bridging by
foreigners is a common talking point of authoritarian, nationalistic and/or
warmongering rhetoric. It allows to make a number of points, such that foreign
country X is the enemy, immigrants from country Y could never integrate,
critics from foreign country Z should shut up because they can't possibly
understand OUR culture, etc.

This kind of mentality goes beyond countries or cultures, but also affects
differences between generations, genders, sexuality, etc. It is far more
convenient to explain away different behaviors as "It should be expected,
she's X" (or the flipped "I can't help it, I'm X") than trying to work out and
overcome differences on an individual level. We're all guilty of it to some
extent as it helps build a sense of identity (notably among minority groups)
but the normative aspect of it is very harmful.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Unbridgeable cultural gaps, as a general matter, are very real. I recently
read _Record of the Listener_ (
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/1624666841/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/1624666841/)
), which is a collection of stories published in China in the 12th century.
And far and away my most common takeaway from any of the stories was "wow, I
have no idea what I'm supposed to think about this". And these stories were
published for their entertainment value!

Similarly, immigrant groups tend not to integrate, critics from foreign
countries really are usually misunderstanding a large number of important
points, and so on.

Between any two cultures, there is a huge amount of overlap. But nothing quite
coincides, and the differences end up mattering a lot.

~~~
lkjhdcba
They are real but greatly exaggerated by people using the aforementioned
rhetoric and completely surmountable. People who claim they aren't are either
trying to push an agenda (usually on authoritarian, nationalistic, and/or
warmongering grounds), or not very well-traveled or have very narrow social
circles not involving foreigners at all.

Your 12th century stories are interesting and all but do not reflect the
reality of the world we currently live in. If you live in a large city and
have a medium-to-high salary, which is a reasonable assumption to make given
HN's demographics, it is in fact easy to get acquainted to other cultures by
traveling often (possibly living abroad), learning other languages and/or
befriending (or dating) foreigners. Much easier than used to be a couple
centuries ago, in any case. If you do, you will find that deep down beneath
the veneer of culture humans are very much the same. I don't have data to back
this up, this is only from my mere experience.

Pretending that cultural differences don't exist is harmful and condescending;
acting as though they were insurmountable and irreconcilable is downright
dangerous and leads to disaster.

~~~
throwawaycanada
They are surmountable if one of the cultures changes. There are cultures that
think things we find deplorable are okay.

------
prawn
One of Maciej's best IMO. Informative and very entertaining.

I was struck in particular by: _" I can’t get over the oddness of the
situation. In one direction is bedlam, in the other complete normalcy,
separated by a few hundred meters."_

In 2003, I was walking in Madrid one evening with my girlfriend when war
protesters became engaged in some sort of battle with riot police. We had
wandered amongst protesters up one street, just taking it all in (up to
exciting but short of dangerous!), when suddenly masked protesters came
running towards us, gas clouds and popping sounds behind them. We ducked first
into the alcove doorway of a restaurant and then sheltered inside at the bar
for the evening eating tapas. Within the restaurant, fairly normal dining.
Across the road, police with shields dealing with rioters and damaged
property.

~~~
sammorrowdrums
I'm from Belfast. This is exactly the case. There is almost never total
constant omnipresent conflict. Nor does it spread randomly. Almost all
conflict is highly localised at any given moment.

I imagine even during the war in Afghanistan there were plenty of farmers and
families going about their busines while Taliban, local and international
forces were live firing mere miles away.

Even soldiers cannot sustain a continuous battle. Wars are a collection of
separate battles with a shared end goal.

~~~
empath75
People went out to picnic on the hills to watch one of the first battles of
the Civil War in Virginia.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
It didn't work out all that great for them.

------
brendanw
A few years ago a Chinese man on the BART tried asking me for directions. His
english was poor. With the aid of google translate we were able to do some
basic communication. Over the course of 10 minutes I learned he was trying to
visit the Wikipedia headquarters. I mentioned I was surprised he could access
Wikipedia in the mainland. He told me that many know how to access Wikipedia.

Let's be clear. Authoritarianism is not culture; it is an evil political
ideology that the people of China are subjected to.

~~~
woutr_be
There's honestly quite a lot of misinformation about how people live their
lives in China. Many of my friends are perfectly capable of accessing blocked
websites, and they're by no means computer experts. They all have been able to
travel because of their increase in wealth, and most of them are in contact
with foreigners from all over the world. To them, they live in a society with
restrictions, but they've all benefited immensely from it in the past decades.

~~~
spectramax
This is such an absurd reasoning. Just because people have circumvented the
Great Fire Wall has no bearing on what the parent comment is talking about -
GFW is the consequence of the evil things an authoritarian government is
capable of doing (amongst other freedom of speech and press issues such as
banning books, independent journalism, etc.) - whether people circumvent it
using potentially illegal means (VPN in this case) is irrelevant. The
government can arrest you for this reason alone.

~~~
woutr_be
You're missing the point of my comment, and the parent comment. The parent
comment isn't talking about how the GFW is a consequence of an authoritarian
government, it's talking about how he wasn't aware people could get around it.

Where I'm pointing out that this kind of unawareness is quite common, and
until you've actually been to China, or have lived there, you'll have a
totally different picture painted by the media. (This really goes for all
countries)

~~~
spectramax
It is downplaying authoritarian rule by saying that they've made is easy for
people to bypass it and as you said, many people live their lives "normally"
in China. The parent clarifies this by reaffirming the core subject, i.e.
quoting - "Let's be clear. Authoritarianism is not culture; it is an evil
political ideology that the people of China are subjected to."

~~~
woutr_be
You're turning this into a political discussion for the sake of discussing
politics and pushing your opinion. Nobody is downplaying authoritarian rule,
merely pointing out how unaware people are about other people living in
different countries. You could take the exact same comment, change Wikipedia
and China to something else, and I could make the same argument that I've made
before; that until you actually live in a country, and talk to the people,
you'll never be fully aware of how things are. Wether it be government imposed
restrictions (which, let's be honest, all of us are subject to), or cultural
differences, if you only use the media to build your view of a country, you'll
almost always be wrong.

------
TASMebWdhWc9NeA
I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists
from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a
lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the
discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests.

Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the
chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way is the right way,
or that the western culture is the one to accept. They just say that they are
different, and that of course a shift in culture is difficult for Hong
Kongers. They think it will all pan out somehow: Hong Kong has to accept that
they are Chinese now, and accept all the consequences that come with that.

I understand that the viewpoint of hn, a very USA oriented site, is different,
and that most people here think that the libery of HK people should not be
taken away from them because democracy is the only way, but I think the
chinese point of view should be heard as well, and should be taken into
consideration to get a better understanding of everything that is happening.

My personal opinion on this is that China should just let them keep their
autonomy, and let them be Hong Kong: a state by it's own with it's own rules
and laws.

~~~
spectramax
Let’s replace China with X so there is no xenophobic rebuttals.

X is an authoritarian regime that has no rule of law, president has self
declared perpetual status in the office, piracy is rampant, no respect for
privacy of others, there is an app called ourchat that is effectively owned by
the government and is increasing becoming a necessity, no media let alone any
kind of investigative journalism especially against the government, your
social score goes down if you buy a particular book, you cannot sue the
government or even think about it, punishment can include selling your organs
for arbitrary reasons, the list goes on and on.

If X were an impoverished country like Somalia, the tune would change and most
people would condemn such a society. I want to do so fearlessly but sometimes
people see it as an attack against the Chinese people. I’ve been to China and
have spent many months there, made lifelong relations, etc. I have no room for
any concession or bargain for the argument that authoritarian rule has
benefits - yes it does but at aforementioned costs. China has risen above due
to government’s iron grip over every aspect of the country. It is doing so at
a cost. Fundamentals don’t change even if one sees the strategy panning out.
An eagle in the world of doves can kill a lot of doves and have short term
evolutionary imbalance. But soon, the marginal cost of turning into an eagle
is so small so there are new eagles popping up in the population all of a
sudden. This balance oscillates in the short term, but evolutionary pressure
returns it back to an equilibrium. Fundamentals of eagle and dove dynamics
don’t change even though the state of this system shows “success”.

I’m in the position to criticize any authoritarian regimes in the strongest
way possible - be it China or any other country, it doesn’t matter. I don’t
want to die seeing this world turn into a power grab for a few with a
consequence of a dystopian society. I wish the next superpower would be a
country such as Norway or Sweden, it would set such a utopian example for the
world to move into the right direction.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> An eagle in the world of doves can kill a lot of doves and have short term
> evolutionary imbalance. But soon, the marginal cost of turning into an eagle
> is so small so there are new eagles popping up in the population all of a
> sudden.

This looks like a reference to the Hawk-Dove game. For those who haven't heard
of it:

You have a population of two groups, hawks and doves. When they come into
conflict (say, over a source of food), two doves will spend a lot of time
staring each other down (each incurring a minor fitness penalty), and two
hawks will fight (each incurring a major fitness penalty), but a dove facing a
hawk will immediately surrender, incurring no penalty at all.

Depending on the amounts involved, there is a percentage of hawks which
maximizes the total benefit enjoyed by the population, and that percentage is
more than zero. A few hawks save a lot of doves time they could spend doing
more productive things.

What I find interesting about this game is how it interacts with some popular
notions of government. A traditional utilitarian perspective is that the
purpose of government is to maximize the welfare of society. As applied to the
hawk-dove game, that would mean the government should anoint some people
"hawks" and set rules that mean a hawk in conflict with a dove automatically
wins, regardless of the merits of the conflict. This is a pretty traditional
aristocracy setup. It would then be the business of the government to make
sure the number of nobles stayed within an appropriate margin relative to the
number of commoners.

But another very popular model of the government says that it should make sure
everything is fair. ("All men are equal before the law.") That would mean
abolishing the concept of the nobility's inherent superiority to commoners,
ensuring that everyone is a dove. It sounds better, but in terms of societal
welfare, it's worse.

~~~
learc83
>It sounds better, but in terms of societal welfare, it's worse.

Within the very contrived confines of the hawk-dove model sure, but I highly
doubt that the hawk-dove game is a particularly useful model for society as a
whole.

------
albertzeyer
This is the first time I hear about the term "zeroth world". A quick Google
search did bring up some results, but not much. Wikipedia does not seem to
cover that. Of course it covers 1st/2nd/3rd world
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-
world_model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-world_model),
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World),
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World),
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World)).
The terms "developed", "developing", and "underdeveloped" are somewhat
analogue to that (e.g.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country)).
There is also the term fourth world
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_World](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_World)).
Putting countries (or cities) into these categories is hard of course (and
maybe does not make sense).

It seems that the term zeroth world naturally is used to say that such
countries/cities are more developed than the first world. More specifically,
more developed than USA. Countries/cities like Taipei, Singapore (in this
article) or Norway ([http://www.chaosnode.net/blog/2018/06/17/life-in-the-
zeroth-...](http://www.chaosnode.net/blog/2018/06/17/life-in-the-zeroth-
world/)) are such examples (you probably can add some more to that list, e.g.
Switzerland).

Other articles ([https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/america-
is-r...](https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/america-is-
regressing-into-a-developing-nation-for-most-people)) argue that we maybe can
just downgrade USA to a developing country (i.e. like 2nd world).

~~~
OkGoDoIt
I think he uses the term creatively, it’s not a standard term I’ve seen
elsewhere.

Having spent a decent amount of time in both mainland China and Hong Kong, and
living in San Francisco and previously elsewhere in the USA, I can definitely
relate. So many things about China feel much more modern than the USA. I get
better cell phone service on top of remote mountains in China than I do at my
home in downtown San Francisco. Public transit is light years better there as
well. Certainly there are things that are worse in China, the main one being
air quality, but often coming back to the USA after an extended trip in China
or Hong Kong is quite disappointing as I reacclimate to our crappy
infrastructure.

~~~
kaybe
At least peak air pollution seems to have been passed, so it'll only get
better from here (it's still a long way down though).

The situation at the moment is a bit difficult in that reducing some of the
emissions will actually result in more pollution, since the pollutant mix
undergoes chemical reactions and some components deplete others.

------
hrktb
> The MTR is the one technology the Hong Kong protests could not do without,
> an autonomous fiefdom that the police mostly stay out of. It is neutral
> territory

This is a godsend. During Paris protest earlier this year the gov would just
shut down public transports for about 5~10 km around and block main accesses
so people couldn’t massively join the protests.

At least the mainland gov. didn’t get to touch that I guess.

~~~
woutr_be
Some stations have been shutdown several times in the past few weeks, I'm not
sure if it was on the request of the police, or the MTR just decided to skip
stations. However, this wasn't due to people going to protests, this was due
to increased violence, and even attacks inside the stations.

Last week the HK police decided to fire tear gas within a station as well.

~~~
hrktb
> However, this wasn't due to people going to protests, this was due to
> increased violence, and even attacks inside the stations.

Yes, and it's legitimate from a business point of view.

But then, if the police wanted to shut down these stations, causing
violences/attacks would also be a way to push MTR's hand (they've already
hired mobs to stir the protests, trashing stations for strategic advantage
wouldn't be out of character)

~~~
woutr_be
I believe the police have also requested the MTR to add additional train
services, so that people could get out of affected areas.

There's been a lot of push back on the police operating inside the MTR
stations, especially after what happened last time. It's one thing to try and
push people to leave the area, another thing to fire tear gas rounds at the
entrances of MTR stations.

The protestors have already shown that they can cripple the MTR network within
a couple of hours, I doubt the MTR want to be on the wrong side.

------
cristinabunea
You can listen to this article here:

[https://www.listle.io/#/article/951265060](https://www.listle.io/#/article/951265060)

------
wazoox
> The protesters learned in 2014 that having leaders was a weakness. Once the
> leadership was arrested, the heart went out of the occupy movement, and it
> lost momentum. So in 2019, there is no leadership at all.

Another thing that's similar with the (still ongoing) Yellow Vests in France.

------
odiroot
> “It’s okay,” I tell them. “This is normal. I’m not dying—I’m Polish.” They
> edge away.

Funnily enough, myself being Polish, I found HK climate much more preferable
than the Central European. I dread every end of summer; every winter kills my
energy and work performance a bit more.

~~~
throwaway1997
Even us locals suffer during the summer. It easily reached 35C with up to 90%
humidity.

~~~
odiroot
Yes I understand, peak summer is very sweaty. For me it's still nicer that
freezing off and having to wear 4 different layers to survive.

------
nbevans
"All that prelude is to say, coming in to the Hong Kong protests from a less
developed country like the United States is disorienting."

This sentence got me hooked. It must be so alien to the average American that
there are more developed countries/cities out there.

~~~
macspoofing
I wouldn't put Honk Kong in that list though as much as I like the people and
the city. I've been a few times and the infrastructure looks like it's falling
apart. Electricity wires are hanging haphazardly, alleyways are dirty, and
most facades of buildings are straight out of the third-world. The contrast
between high-end boutiques interspaced with tiny mom-and-pop shops selling
second hand stuff is a little surreal.

~~~
terryf
What you described is the exact impression I got when I first travelled to New
York :)

"Is it supposed to be this dirty?"

~~~
baby
Come visit downtown San Francisco :D

~~~
terryf
I go fairly frequently these days and am not surprised by much any more ;)

------
zensavona
If anyone is interested, I actually happened to be in Hong Kong and attend the
first wave of protests and took some photos:
[https://500px.com/zensavona/galleries/hong-
kong](https://500px.com/zensavona/galleries/hong-kong)

------
dade_
The Hong Kong government/China have been completely inept at managing the
housing situation and it is nearly at a breaking point. It is refreshing to
read an article on the current situation that raises the issue.

'One of the deeper causes of the present crisis of legitimacy is the housing
crisis in Hong Kong, another way in which the government has failed the people
it is meant to represent, and you can see it in the extraordinary density of
apartment buildings, each unit pock-marked with an air conditioner, tiny
living spaces with some of the highest rents in the world.'

~~~
mback00
But this is how the Hong Kong government has traditionally made its money.
Hong Kong’s tax structure is real-estate sales. This is why Hong Kong is all
about huge sky rise developments of ultra-small apartments... and because the
island is all hills, it is also why so many developments are built literally
on a cliff.

Hong Kong is a geographically difficult place... building new plots is
expensive - and the government makes it more expensive.

------
ETHisso2017
Hmm. I wonder how the protesters know who to trust in their Telegram groups
and on LIHKG. There has to be a core of organizers, however anonymous they may
appear to be.

Is there a way to track metadata exhaust from telegram for building a social
graph or xss lihkg? Could be a way to ID them.

~~~
_petronius
This is some serious “too interested in seeing if you could, and not stopping
to wonder if you should” content. What possible positives are there in
exploring how to de-anonymize people whose life and freedom requires
anonymity, and who are fighting the good fight?

~~~
mskvsk
Telling those people how to improve their privacy before Beijing did this.

~~~
mytailorisrich
Slightly tangential since you're specifically discussing communication but
I've noticed that the term "privacy" is often getting incorrectly used when
discussing surveillance tech (e.g. face recognition).

There is no expectation of privacy in a public place.

But an important right in a free society is the right to anonymity.

A street is not a private place and, as said, there is no expectation of
privacy there: Anyone and everyone can see you and what you are doing.

But you should have the right to remain anonymous as long as you do not breach
the law. That's what called into question these days with e.g. automatic
facial recognition.

~~~
germanier
> A street is not a private place and, as said, there is no expectation of
> privacy there: Anyone and everyone can see you and what you are doing.

Only people physically there can see me and what I am doing. Modern technology
enables them to record that and share it globally and across time. It's
important to recognize that this ability is not inherent in it being a public
place.

"Expectation of privacy" and that you can't have it in a public street is a
US-centric concept. Other societies draw the line differently.

~~~
mytailorisrich
Expectation of privacy in public places has never been a concept anywhere.
Privacy and public space are simply contradicting terms.

~~~
DanBC
> Expectation of privacy in public places has never been a concept anywhere.

This is untrue. Naomi Campbell was in a public place, but courts found she had
a reasonable expectation of privacy.
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1461187/Naomi-
Campbe...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1461187/Naomi-Campbell-
wins-drug-photographs-case.html)

In England you can't just set up CCTV to monitor public space, you need to
register that with the ICO.

~~~
mytailorisrich
Your link does not mention anything about her being in a public space, and
it's difficult to comment on a specific case without knowing all the details.

In the UK there is no expectation of privacy in public places and anyone can
film or take pictures in public. Case in point: the flourishing tabloid
industry of celebrity pictures.

The ICO is about data protection. Even websites processing personal data must
register with the ICO.

~~~
DanBC
She was on the street. MGM tried to say, as you are here, that because she was
on the street she had no expectation of privacy. English courts disagreed.

[https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2004/22.html](https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2004/22.html)

> In the UK there is no expectation of privacy in public places and anyone can
> film or take pictures in public.

I've just linked you to a case where that was shown to be untrue.

> The ICO is about data protection.

Data protection is one of the laws that prevents people just setting up a CCTV
camera to record public spaces. If you set up a CCTV camera in England that
records the street you need to register it with ICO. What you can do with the
images is limited because data protection law. You're claiming that because
there's no expectation of privacy on the street someone can just run CCTV and
do what they like with those images. They can't in England.

You said

> never been a concept anywhere

This is nonsense. See eg German or French law.

> In some jurisdictions it is an actionable wrong to publish a photograph of a
> person taken without consent – see Markesinis and Unberath – the German Law
> of Torts 4th Ed. at pp.75 and 445 and Dalloz 101 Ed. of the French Code
> Civil, notes at paragraph 15 on Article 9 of the Code

~~~
mytailorisrich
There is no expectation of privacy in public places. You are trying to prove
me wrong by subtly shifting the argument.

> _You 're claiming that because there's no expectation of privacy on the
> street someone can just run CCTV and do what they like with those images._

I never claimed that. But I will say that there is no legal restriction on
filming a public space in England.

~~~
DanBC
I am not subtlely shifting the argument.

I'm giving you at least one clear example where someone in public had an
expectation of privacy and that was upheld by English courts.

I've also showed that English data protection laws provide an expectation of
privacy and restrict what type of filming and photography people do in public
places.

> But I will say that there is no legal restriction on filming a public space
> in England.

For fuck's sake, there are at least 3 and probably more.

1) Naomi Campbell case above

2) Data protection forbids certain kinds of filming in public

3) "This is a prohibited place within the meaning of the Official Secrets Act"
\-- try standing on a public street filming a location that has these signs up
and see how far you get.

~~~
mytailorisrich
> _For fuck 's sake, there are at least 3 and probably more._

The Met Police (among others) disagree. [1]

Again, Naomi Campbell's case is not about filming a public space.

It's also clear that there might be special cases, e.g. for national security.

Data protection does not forbid filming in public.

[1] [https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-
information/ph/p...](https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-
information/ph/photography-advice/)

------
avip
Interesting to contrast this with popular demonstrations in US or France. No
windows broken? Burnt city infrastructure? No beaten up police? All so quiet.

~~~
mytailorisrich
They seem to have spared private property, but windows were broken, city
infrastructure was damaged (e.g. LegCo, police stations), and police were
beaten up.

It's like in all countries. Some protests/protesters are peaceful, some are
not.

~~~
jacobush
Ehm, our Swedish rioters usually break all windows once getting started

------
ngcc_hk
Except for 21 Jun and 11 Aug I join every protest I can made to. It is
exhausting to fight a gov that do not listen because its power is from a
colonial power on the north. Hk is in the forefront of the things to come.
Look at Austria you know what the bully will do.

------
Aeolun
This has probably given me more insight in the protests than any news article
I’ve read so far.

Why is it so hard to find a decent source for what is happening?

~~~
hrktb
Fundamentally it is not what western media think as “news”.

It is long, ultra detailed, first person, and doesn’t cover the central point
covered by other news outlets.

If a NYT editor was reading this it would cut it down to a fifth of what it
is, have it reexplain the 5 demands, give a clearer political positioning etc.

We had that with french protests, standard news covering was cut so it was
very digestible and non thought provoking (ton of focus on politics, the
fights, injuries and non participant’s reactions to the events), it felt like
most places removed bits that could be too interesting.

We need both obviously, and I also share your view that more often than not
when big event occurs the news coverage doesn’t help much to give us a grip
about what’s actually happening.

~~~
unityByFreedom
> If a NYT editor was reading this it would cut it down to a fifth of what it
> is, have it reexplain the 5 demands, give a clearer political positioning
> etc.

The word "extradition", a key piece of information about current HK-China
relations, does not appear in this blog. Let's not pretend it is deeper than
something produced by a reputable newspaper. A newspaper can put out long form
like this, or just straight news. In either case, any decent story teller will
mention why the protests are happening.

 _edit_ please explain your downvotes, thanks

~~~
idlewords
The reasons for the protests are well-covered elsewhere, they are full of
nuance that I can't get right, and my assumption is that people who read
through this post and are interested will be able to find lots of background
on the protests through a simple google search.

I would normally have added reading links, but things are moving fast here and
also I am on an unfamiliar travel laptop where it's kind of a chore to edit
and write.

~~~
unityByFreedom
The protest started from a proposed law to extradite HKers to China. That
point is not nuanced, it's just a contextual fact.

~~~
idlewords
That is how the protest started. Why it continues, why it has grown, and why
extraditing people is such a galvanizing issue, is complicated.

------
SCHiM
Is anyone in Hong Kong proactively setting up communication channels to the
outside in case the military cracks down? In a worst case scenario it'd be
good to have reliable high-bandwidth communication channels to the outside
world. The time to establish them has past I think, but there might still be
some quick-wins to make.

They will shut down and disrupt all normal communications the moment their
operations begin.

------
k3liutZu
> “It’s okay,” I tell them. “This is normal. I’m not dying—I’m Polish.”

I chuckled more then I should as an east-european myself. If it's hot I do
sweat a LOT.

------
andredz
> I catch the briefest glimpse of a woman with no protective gear, dressed
> normally, who is weaving her way upstream through the escaping demonstrators
> with a placid smile on her face.

I liked the prose in this piece; it felt like a novel. And as someone
commented before, I felt myself immersed in the story.

------
kawera
_" This sounds like it shouldn’t possibly work, but the protesters are too
young to know that it can’t work, so it works."_

Brilliant !

------
wgx
Pastebin copy: [https://pastebin.com/gsiAqu4u](https://pastebin.com/gsiAqu4u)

~~~
jf
Internet Archive copy:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20190816070112/https://idlewords...](https://web.archive.org/web/20190816070112/https://idlewords.com/2019/08/a_walk_in_hong_kong.htm)

------
mback00
This is the most beautiful and tragic thing I have read all day. Is there a
reputable place to donate?

------
muricula
Judging by the comments here I wonder how many people on HN have actually been
to many protests, even small ones. If there's a cause you support, local or
global, there may be demonstrations in your city. Get out there and make a
difference!

------
bubblegum
Everyone is a sacrifice of ideology, it's easy to merge into one ideology then
see the surface and judge the other, but if you look from the outside of
ideologies, things could be much complicated than it seems to be.

I am Chinese people in Shanghai, and not happy about the status of
democracy/free speech/privacy either. But I feel like things are improving, by
the progress of economical development, but this is not my point, just feel
some observations of the current China is biased.

My point is, The protest in HK is trying to stimulate Beijing to make an
action, which will be a disaster for all people, except the politicians from
the western world would love to see it, and some protester love to see it
because that will prove China is evil.

The reason Beijing must take action is because the building is too tall to
fall, just like US must send troops to Iraq, the ideology must prove itself is
righteous.

------
La-ang
Amazing writing style. I felt walking Hong Kong and every emotion that ought
to be felt there. [Trains are now running every seven minutes, instead of very
two, and MTR regrets the inconvenience.] Ah the New York Subway :/

------
ohiovr
Looks like a kind of mass mania.

------
aboodman
Maciej, this is amazing. thank you for posting it.

~~~
idlewords
Thank you!

------
hoseja
Whips in the soul.

------
Voxoff
Jesus. An amazing piece. Thanks

------
abcdefghijklmn3
Fu Guohao was severely beaten by black shirt protesters at the airport for
allegedly being a mainland spy and a police plant. Why did the protesters do
that? Why did they take away his freedoms? Why do these current narratives
gloss over that fact?

You can accuse me of whataboutism, and I can accuse you of indulging in
propaganda.

I can't imagine getting away with shining a laser in a police officer's eyes,
let alone slinging bricks or molotov cocktails. The HK police are arguably
kind.

~~~
smcl
This comment is by a green-name account, isn't responding to anyone in
particular and has that online-commenter-army feel to it.

Genuine question for HN: what's the right term for this sort of comment, or
commenter?

~~~
mytailorisrich
If political submissions are accepted then we should also accept comments
expressing opposite and contradicting views on the issue instead of trying to
suppress them by labeling them as "bots", "online-commenter-army", etc.

~~~
smcl
Yes we should be able to have a discussion, but I'd ask you to read the
article and then read the comment. Does the comment look like it is responding
to the article, or attempting to open a dialogue with the other side ... or
does it look like a generic attempt at point scoring for the "pro-mainland"
side?

If "abcdefghijklmn3" is really keen to engage with the HN community then I
take back what I said. But we both know that the chances are pretty good that
this person isn't into that.

~~~
mytailorisrich
In my view it is responding to the article because that article is extremely
pro-protesters and that comment expresses the opinion that this isn't so black
and white.

Engage with the point made instead of discarding the comment as "invalid", or
just ignore the comment if you don't want to engage.

~~~
lkjhdcba
Sometimes things are black and white though. The Chinese government is bad,
and undermining it in any way, including through violence, is good. Nuance for
its own sake is not a virtue [1].

[1] [https://kieranhealy.org/publications/fuck-
nuance/](https://kieranhealy.org/publications/fuck-nuance/)

------
dmix
It's interesting how food is always the most in demand and lowest supply
commodity in socialist countries (or more accurately lowest variety selection
since they can barely produce enough staple foods, so they shut down the
production of nice things limiting the local cultures ability to express
themselves and enjoy food). You see it happening repeatedly even today in
Venezuela, Cuba, and North Korea, and historically in China and Russia.

You'd think farming would be something they could do right since they are
obsessed with those types of workers, who are their bread-and-butter. But I
guess it has more to do with the price controls (probably the worst way to
make something 'cheaper') and inefficiencies in the centralized organizations
who think they can plan this stuff.

The typical excuse used by socialists re: Soviet Russia was they were
exporting food for guns (because evil America), but that doesn't equally to
all of the socialists examples in history and is far more likely a direct
result of their economic system.

------
hos234
> The protesters learned in 2014 that having leaders was a weakness. Once the
> leadership was arrested, the heart went out of the occupy movement, and it
> lost momentum. So in 2019, there is no leadership at all.

This part seems a little naive to me. Protests that have produced outcomes (in
atleast a power shift) have all had Leaders and new political parties forming.
Whether in India after the anticorruption/gangrape protests in 2013-14, Greece
economic crisis in 2008, Right wing rise all across Europe thanks to the
immigration issues. All these movements have had leaders who got arrested
multiple times.

------
unityByFreedom
HK has come quite far, but if they can't stage peaceful protests without fear
of reprisal from Beijing, then the brightest will still flee to the US.

This blog post's point seems to be, he had culture shock when he moved to the
US as a child, and experienced it again when visiting HK because he feels it
is more advanced than the US.

> Not everyone lives in a luxury hotel, man! I get it. But my eyes are like
> saucers. I ask forgiveness of Hong Kongers if at times I am still that six
> year old kid, dazzled by what to you is ordinary. You live in a kind of city
> we Americans can only aspire to, and it’s no wonder you love your home so
> much you will take any risk to save it.

~~~
mytailorisrich
I believe quite clear that they can stage peaceful protests. Peaceful protests
have never been prevented in Hongkong.

~~~
unityByFreedom
Perhaps you are unaware, China has produced videos of military units gathering
near the border of HK. China is making very visible threats to peace.

 _edit_ next reply below..

"Let's not pretend" \- are you copying my language from another comment? weird
or a coincidence.

Anyway we don't see eye to eye on this. In my view, Beijing's obstinance is
causing all kinds of trouble in HK, for both the HK police and the general
population.

This could all be resolved swiftly by simply retracting the extradition bill.
The longer the disagreement continues, the more likely more people in China
have a chance to hear both sides of the story. I expect that is a scarier
prospect for Beijing than they would like to admit.

~~~
mytailorisrich
This is not a response to "peaceful protests", which are common in Hongkong
without any problem, including on very sensitive issues (e.g. the annual
gathering to commemorate the 1989 protests on Tiananmen Square).

Let's not pretend that what has been happening are just peaceful protests:
There has also been violence, ransacking of the LegCo, and blockade of the
airport. Any of which would not have been accepted anywhere.

Protesters have won on the extradition bill. It's effectively gone. Now they
have just made sure that the mainland's public opinion rally against them and
behind the central government. That has been a strategic mistake, IMHO.

~~~
kaybe
Experience with many governments shows that they often just put these bills
into a drawer and pull it back out at the next opportunity.

I feel we have to protest the same things every few years here, in a
democratic state where we are free to do so.

Hongkong might not have the chance in the future, so I understand where
they're coming from.

