
Hey Entrepreneur – Please Get an MBA - dynamo
http://gozman.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/hey-entrepreneur-please-get-an-mba/
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guylhem
Great post - point by point refutation of the "don't get an MBA".

One thing I would like to add - finding and filling the gaps in your
knowledge.

Repost from "the don't get an MBA" thread : _There might be an education
bubble. There might be an anti-education bias - especially here. But even with
the best online tools and classes, what you learn with a standard curriculum
is just better - that's the sad truth, and it is even truer if you are a self
directed learner and don't care about the grades. Case in point - I got
interested in economics and started reading books - then followed online
courses and videos from prestigious universities and so on. Purchased
textbooks, etc. I worked seriously, but I soon realized that the freedom to
dig on subjects I thought worth investigating was mitigated by the lack of
common knowledge expected for advancing my knowledge further. You can look at
that like a multiple dependancies problem - except that you don't know about
these dependancies beforehand. With a traditional class, you acquire the same
vocabulary, the same comparison basis and so on - and that's priceless. I have
started taking classes, and I now realize that. I learn about topics I would
have never learnt on my own and I realize 'yes, they could be quite useful'.
Please realize I'm not even taking about the network or other benefits you may
find in an MBA - just the actual knowledge. I haven't done an MBA (yet?), but
I guess most of the commenters here haven't either - and haven't even tried
and given up (which would then be interesting to know). So I wonder how they
can judge about its pertinence. Before this experience, I was also imbued in
delusions of "online learning that made everything possible". But there's a
dependency ceiling - I've touched it. Personally, if I can enroll in one, I
know I will._

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sedachv
I actually dropped out halfway through a 2-year full time MBA degree from the
same school as the author of the blog post, this spring. My experience was a
bit different - most of the people in the full-time program were younger and
didn't have that much outside industry experience. I met a few people in the
executive MBA program (part-time, nights and weekends), and they all seemed to
be not only much more experienced and knowledgeable, but having a lot more fun
too.

If I were to do this over again (which I won't, this experience really
cemented that a classroom is the worst possible learning style for me), I
would definitely go with the advice to get into the best possible MBA program
I could (I got a 700 on the GMAT on the first try without studying, but chose
to go to school in Montreal for the location and tuition). There is only one
objective criteria for how good schools are - how wealthy and influential
their alumni become. The huge expenses associated with an MBA program are
basically a toll fee to keep the poor rabble out of the rich kids' club. It's
worth getting in there to become friends with these people.

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slap_shot
I don't see how this actually supports the pursuit of an MBA.

For instance, the first point is that you learn a range of subjects, and while
acknowledging that you could learn them each through a book, MBA programs let
you talk about these subjects with people from unique backgrounds. Why do I
need an MBA program to do that? I can quickly find plenty of people from any
of the aforementioned industries outside of an MBA program. This is a weak
point.

The second point is that it is cheap. I've lived in NYC, worked in finance,
and know plenty of MBAs, and the general rule is, if your MBA isn't from a
top-tier school, it's hard to justify getting one (more on that in a moment).
Just saying you can get a cheap MBA doesn't support the point getting an MBA.

The 5th point probably illustrates best why NOT to get an MBA. MBA programs,
historically, have been breeding grounds for large corporations to hire
executives from, especially if you come from a top-tier program. However, I
don't think entrepreneurship really gives a shit where you went to school or
what you studied. Empirically, it doesn't seem to have much impact. Until an
MBA program can actually demonstrate that a significant portion of their
graduates go on to have a more successful run in startups, I don't think there
is a great argument for pursuing an MBA to start a company.

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cyphersanctus
Hmm, so this is coming from a person who only had to pay 10k USD for their
MBA. The reality is that most of us face an MBA option of many times that in
costs.

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stephengillie
Should a person seek to get an MBA from a more highly-ranked school than where
that person completed undergraduate studies? A lot my undergrad classmates
(top-25 university) are getting MBAs from a less-well rated private
university.

~~~
refurb
It depends what you want to get out of it. Do you just want the knowledge or
do you want the prestige as well?

I will say this, if you don't have an MBA from a top 15 school, your
employment options are drastically reduced. That being said, if you're doing
your own start-up and you want a well-rounded business education, does it
matter that much?

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OldSchool
Or just use this recipe: Be dumb enough to try but smart enough and dedicated
enough to make it happen. Throw in a dash of luck. If you're successful, know
when to quit. If you're not successful know when to quit.

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smoyer
I hate to say it but ...

I think an MBA is a waste of time for most people, but especially those who
have business degrees for their BAs. I have looked recently, but in the early
2000's it cost me an average of $110k to hire a good programmer and we
realized we could hire MBAs for between $55k and $60k to twiddle Microsoft
Project. We certainly got a lot more work out of our programmers by letting
the dull drudge-work pass to those poor MBAs.

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kevingibbon
Depends on the person. I headed to SF and learned more over the last 3 months
than I've learned during any period of my life. Surround yourself with
aspiring people and learn from them. You will get way more than any MBA
program.

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tomasien
I spent today reading about Avon because of an article that I found on
Linkedin, followed up by a search fueled my own curiosity and drive to learn.
I found it really, really interesting.

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joezydeco
I just quit a startup because of too many MBAs walking around (as the article
puts it) "blindly executing" with nobody actually working on shipping.

Kawasaki was right.

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thaumaturgy
Yikes. I'm a huge proponent of education generally, but this guy isn't exactly
making a compelling argument for getting an MBA. (And, in my experience, MBAs
haven't been able to offer any better advice than other experienced
businesspeople -- nor even as good advice.)

" _If you were to listen to some startup types (or worse yet, your early-stage
VC investors) you’d skip grad school, stick to ramen in your garage while
trying to nail a huge viral coefficient and plastering whiteboards with agile
index cards and a huge ass lean canvas._ "

This is currently the advice that many people in the startup industry are
giving _because it works_. You may choose to ignore the advice of successful
people because you feel it doesn't apply to whatever it is you're trying to
accomplish, but to simply blow it off as poor advice is pretty stupid.

" _You’ll know enough of everything business-y to be dangerous._ "

Yeah, that's been my observation about MBAs in business, too. </snark>

" _An MBA will teach you the fundamental theory that lets you answer each of
these questions._ "

Fundamental theory just doesn't teach the way that experience does, especially
when it comes to subjective things like leadership. Hell, I read a ton of
psychology, I can "type" most people within a few minutes of conversation or
observation, and I've got practice at leadership, and I'm _still_ not nearly
as good of a leader as someone who frequently plays a key role in a team
sport.

" _Think that Avon has nothing to teach you about statup marketing? Think
about how they built the ULTIMATE affiliate program and drove millions in
revenue through user-acquisition before Zuck was even born._ "

So what? If you're a startup founder and you want to shortcut this, you can
read about it, or, better yet, get peer or mentor advice. That's why startup
networks exist. And, is their affiliate program what made them successful?
What were the long-term effects on their brand? Is it still driving their
business? What if we compare them to other companies in their market that
don't do affiliate programs? Let's not just mention a case study without
explaining why it applies.

" _I’m blessed to have people from Montreal to Mumbai in my MBA network that
have built web startups, ran construction firms, brought pharamceuticals to
market and kept steel mills running._ "

And I have the internet.

I win.

" _I was lucky that in Quebec we pay the lowest costs for tuition in North
America. My entire MBA cost under $10,000 (including books) through massive
government subsidization..._ "

Ha. So, before you even start your business, go into debt first. How many of
you could start more than one startup with $10,000? I bet a few. That's two
failures, two opportunities at success, two practical real-world life
experiences to learn from, before an MBA _even gets started_.

" _To make an educated decision about whether or not the tuition is worth it
MBA style, you need to figure out the ROI._ "

Things an MBA teaches you, number one: don't say "whether it's worth it" when
you can say "the ROI" instead.

" _Thing is, it’s hard to put a precise dollar amount on the return you’ll get
from your degree in the context of your first tech startup._ "

In other words, _literally_ "not clearly worth it". Might be, might not be.
For 10+ grand, that's an even bigger gamble than your first startup.

" _MBA programs suck up your time. There’s no escaping it. If you want to do
well, you need to work hard, attend a ton of group meetings, and write a heck
of a lot of powerpoint decks. However, in a startup, you won’t have it any
easier. An MBA is a great way to teach you how to find balance between your
work and your personal life._ "

An MBA does not magically make these things easier, and I disagree that a
startup _has to be_ subjected to the same ton of group meetings and powerpoint
decks. People who choose to upset their work/life balance do so because they
_want_ to hustle, not because they don't have an MBA and don't know any
better.

I could start a 9-to-5 schedule tomorrow. So could most of you. My business
has made it; it'll be self-sustaining on that schedule. But I want it to get
bigger, and I want it to get bigger quickly, so I'm working more hours -- same
as I would if I bought an MBA for 10 grand and 4 years' work.

" _I quickly learned how to balance it all and launched a startup. By the time
I graduated, I had been on TechCrunch, through an accelerator, had a product
in market, revenue and was interviewing my first employee._ "

Good! But, again, he's not presenting anything compelling that says that the
MBA got him there.

" _That said, how much disruption can you really create when everyone in your
circle has the same worldview?_ "

I think the whole "disruption" thing is a little bit silly, but this is a dumb
statement. If you want to disrupt an industry, one of the first questions
you'll be asked by startup investors is whether or not you have experience in
that industry and whether or not you've talked to your potential customers. An
MBA does not magically grant you access to insider information that you can't
get from startup networks and customer research.

" _MBA’s learn how to do it the traditional way: market studies and business
plans (think lean startup but with a 30 page report stuck to it)._ "

So, not a lean startup.

These reports for most businesses are complete fiction. They're full of
numbers that get invented by the author sitting back and imagining things. "My
market has X people in it, the demographics are Y, if I target foo percent of
channels bar and baz, I should be able to make quux!"

\--

I get that he was responding to another guy's blog about the benefits of not
getting an MBA, that he feels was bad advice, but he really hasn't presented a
strong case in favor of the MBA.

~~~
dynamo
Interesting view and breakdown of the post. But I believe the best advice in
general is the same as what parents would say to their child and that's to get
an education. This doesn't mean one can't succeed in life without an
education, but without experience your odds are always better if you have one.

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shrikant
HNer kstenerud called it, in the previous thread.
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4642484>

