
The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German - antonellis
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155304
======
JumpCrisscross
Facts that reconcile this article with what we already know:

1\. _The Greek labour market is inefficien_ t. That is why so many people work
in small (inefficient) shops. Closed shop regulation for many professions lock
people out of high wage occupations. Next to Portugal's 28% high school
graduation rate [1] Greece's recent progress (<50% of 25-64 year olds
completing high school in 1997 versus 61% today [2]) is valiant but the leaves
an uneducated, unproductive generation untouched. It also doesn't account for
Greeks' shorter working years.

2\. _Doing business is tough_. Here is an anecdote from a financial
commentator in Athens:

"My friend explained that the owner of the bookstore/café couldn’t get a
license to provide coffee. She had tried to just buy a coffee machine and give
the coffee away for free, thinking that lingering patrons would boost book
sales. However, giving away coffee was illegal as well. Instead, the owner had
to strike a deal with a bar across the street, whereby they make the coffee
and the waitress spends all day shuttling between the bar and the
bookstore/café. My friend also explained to me that books could not be
purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is illegal to sell
books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café that could neither
sell books nor make coffee." [3]

3\. _The government used cheap loans not for infrastructure or reform, but to
pay public servants and build a military_.

4\. _The government lied about its finances and is depravedly corrupt_.

[1] <http://m.upi.com/m/story/UPI-16361301069117/>

[2] <http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/21/48657344.pdf>

[3] <http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/36085/>

~~~
ctdonath
_"books could not be purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is
illegal to sell books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café
that could neither sell books nor make coffee."_

Unreal.

Note that it wasn't that the store was somehow incompetent, it's that doing
something as simple & normal as selling a book after 6PM is _illegal_. Giving
away brewed-in-house coffee is _illegal_. I'm having trouble articulating how
profoundly outrageous this is, how self-destructive a country is which not
only enacts such regulations but, it seems, _tolerates_ it.

If mere sale of a book is prohibited during any hours (much less perfectly
reasonable & normal hours), outsiders will find it hard to extend sympathy and
aid to a country so keen on destroying its own economy via absurd legislation
and citizens so willing to comply. I'm glad to help the needy, but that stops
quick when the recipient won't quit obviously self-destructive behavior.

------
zerostar07
That number is (more than) a bit misleading. I don't know where OECD pulls
those numbers but it certainly doesn't feel as if Greeks work more than the
average european. Shops dont work on sundays, public services are open for
only a few hours a day, banks close at 2 etc. Underproductivity is a major
issue, most of the work of public services is unnecessary red tape that could
be easily automated if the government was willing.

Work hours is not our major problem, it's work ethics that are lacking. Hard
work is not compensated, it is in fact frowned upon in the public sector, and
this situation has even infiltrated much of the private sector. Absurd
regulation and governmental dependencies has stifled competition in all but a
few sectors (where it works it works reasonably well, such as
telecommunications or banking). Couple that with a hostile investing
environment and you have the perfect recipe for disaster.

That said, Greeks in general are industrious and entrepreneurial, but we tend
to channel our inventiveness on finding ways to avoid paying taxes. Personally
i believed from the start that Greece should have exited the euro in order to
revitalize its dormant economy.

~~~
Heliosmaster
Are you sure? Because I find shops open from early morning till late night:
from general goods to restaurants and so on.

~~~
zerostar07
What about everything else? Are gas stations open on sundays? Pharmacies in
the afternoon? Are government offices open after 13:00?

~~~
Luyt
The government closes down after 13:00 for the whole afternoon? Or only for a
siesta?

~~~
zerostar07
most administrative services close at 13:00 for the public. Still, the greater
issue is not the hours worked, it's the fact that it's unacceptably slow. For
example, most accounting offices employ people whose job is to wait in queues
outside government offices all day (such as tax and social security offices).

------
TelmoMenezes
I don't know about Greece, but I grew up in Portugal, and I suspect there are
some similarities. People in Portugal "work" long hours. But they also work in
a very infective way: long useless meetings, everything requires lengthy
social interactions, bizantine bureaucracy, too many managers for too few real
workers and so on. There are complex cultural problems that cannot be
expressed by such simplistic metrics (and that, unfortunately, cannot be
solved with quick fixes).

~~~
iaskwhy
I'm also from Portugal but I have been working in London for some time now.
Curiously, I don't see much of a difference besides now working only from 9 to
6 instead of working from 9 to 10. Same useless meetings, a very long line for
coffee all day long, everyone is a manager, etc.

My opinion is a simple one: some countries sell stuff others want, some don't.
We were just unlucky and not smart enough to value our geographical position
in the world.

~~~
webnographer
I have seen many greetideas come from Portugal, the challange is getting the
ideas out of the door.You can read here about the start up scene in Lisbon
<http://squaxor.posterous.com/lisbon-the-startup-spirit>

------
kamaal
Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is
such trouble today.

It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like
electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported
from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves
in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on.

The anchor did explain that it wasn't just weak institutions and bad
government policies. It was reckless lifestyle spending on part of Greeks. It
seems many Greeks now want to sell of their costly cars, which are now
believed to sell for less than half the price they bought it. So what happens?
If they are unable to pay the loans and Bank take the cars. Banks still get
only ~50% of what they lent. Its step by step collapse of a whole system.

In many ways, the institutions, like Banks are responsible too, for lending
out money like that- unchecked. But the whole system is to be blamed. People,
Government and everybody else involved.

On the other hand they also showed, Germany and how they manage their economy.

Now lets look at it, Greeks might work harder than Germans. That is no
indication of why Greece is such crisis today. Apart from working and earning
you also need to manage your money well. Why spend more than what you can
earn?

Also scenes in Greece were heart warming, difficult to believe its 21st
century Europe. Its almost like a third world country. People begging on
streets, sleeping on footpaths, Eating from what is distributed. Couples
relying on free clinics for minimal healthcare. As I said, only the
Infrastructure looked grand. Otherwise it looked like a third world country.

~~~
smcl
I don't think that's why these stats are interesting. There seems to be a
stereotype of lazy Greeks being bailed out by hard-working Germans. These OECD
stats (which I originally checked out after an episode of Radio Open Source
featuring economist Mark Blyth) show that this is just another example of an
ugly, incorrect stereotype.

~~~
kamaal
Although I agree that its wrong to say All Greeks are lazy, Its also true that
they didn't manage their money well.

Now I'm not too much of an economist. But I would be annoyed if my money is
used to bail out somebody for mistakes they made.

~~~
smcl
German banks have substantial exposure in Greece and other troubled Eurozone
countries, through bonds/loans. Those bailouts (and we're getting a little
vague here) are often used to service these debts, allowing said banks to
report a profit and pretend their investments were sound in the first place.

Interesting that we rarely look at who lent Greece such vast quantities in the
first place.

------
beloch
Greece could be the most productive country in the EU and their government
would still be in dire straits. Tax evasion is endemic. It doesn't matter how
much people are making if almost nobody is paying their taxes. The Greek
government has started cracking down, but Greek disrespect for taxation has
been building for generations and won't die easily.

~~~
zerostar07
It was (and mostly still is) so easy to avoid taxes in Greece that it's fair
to say the burden is on the government more than the people. I believe it's
difficult to make people tax-conscious when they see that it's so easy for
everyone around them to steal. The tax authorities here are corrupt,
underqualified, and have a very low rate of tax collection. It's so bad that
it had better be replaced altogether.

~~~
varjag
Greece is a democracy. The government is representative of its people.

~~~
zanny
Is the US a democracy by the same standards?

Saying you have a democracy does not make it so, the actions of a government
acting out the will of its people makes it so.

~~~
varjag
The perfect democracy achieving the will of all voters is not achievable, as
different groups may promote conflicting policies. There are however parts
that are consistent with all populace, and as the cabinets change you
definitely can see what they do have in common.

Greek politicians are Greek people too, with same cultural background and
overall attitudes prevailing in the society. Ditto for Greek government
employees (a huge sector of their economy), who are there to enforce the
regulations.

If there is a culture of tax evasion, you can't expect the government to fix
it just because there is a tax code in the writing. People's attitude have to
change.

------
louischatriot
Unfortunately, as long as Greek companies don't pay taxes, Greeks can work as
hard as they can the situation will continue to deteriorate.

~~~
patrickk
Not sure why you were downvoted, widespread tax evasion in Greece is certainly
a contributing factor for the trouble they're in. You can build an apartment
building, have an 'uncompleted' top floor, and therefore pay no tax on the
building.

[http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-b...](http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-
bearing-bonds-201010)

------
Irishsteve
Time spent in work is not time spent working. All my greek buddies have a easy
gong day. They are in work a number of hours, but how productive those hours
are who knows.

------
Uchikoma
I'm biased, I'm German.

But last year I think there was an article linked that explained how Germans
have more productivity output per year than US Americans, although Germans
have more holidays.

Said that, it's obviously a generalization. I'd think it's very company
specific, and depends on many factors, especially the number of "meetings" one
has to attend, those that are not work because they have no agenda, no action
items, no decisions made etc.

------
stefanve
The hours worked figure is misleading. in The Netherlands, Germany etc
workforce participation rate of women are much higher. But because women tent
to work mostly part-time, especially if they have kids, average the number is
really low. Also a lot of young family's split this time as both parent's work
part time to spend time with the kids. A normal work week is about 40 hours so
if you take out 6 weeks for vacation days, sick days etc your left with 1840
hours. I think a more interesting number would be average work time per
household I suspect that the list would look differently.

------
ck2
As I understand it, Greece's problem is the wealthy completely dodge taxes,
putting the burden on everyone else (or collapsing the government). It's an
idealized version of America's wealthy dream-state.

------
holri
It does not matter how long you work. What matters is what you get done in a
week.

~~~
cmdkeen
This. The far more important column is the second one about Productivity. And
Germany leads the way there with no mention for Greece.

Working more hours to produce the same thing is bad, not good.

~~~
tluyben2
Leads the way? Belgium and the Netherlands are higher. In that table (where
did they get those numbers) I would say Norway + Netherlands 'win'; least
hours, most productive. For me as a programmer that's exactly how it should
be.

------
dasil003
Why is there no mention of taxes here? Isn't the single biggest factor that
the Greek tax system is corrupt from the ground up?

------
junto
Greece's problems are predominantly due to state debt, caused by:

1) State Fraud and Corruption: "In early 2010, it was revealed that successive
Greek governments had been found to have consistently and deliberately
misreported the country's official economic statistics to keep within the
monetary union guidelines."

2) Public Tax Evasion: "Greece suffers from very high levels of tax evasion.
In the last quarter of 2005, tax evasion reached 49%,[142] while in January
2006 it fell to 41.6%.[142] The Tax Justice Network has said that there are
over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks."

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece>

My personal opinion is that I really don't see why the rest of Europe should
bail the Greeks out. They should be booted out of the Euro.

> "The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German"
> Amount of time worked != productivity.

------
twelvechairs
This is not a very relevant statistic. Note for instance the semi-slave
factory workers of Asia who on average would work much harder and longer hours
than either of these two groups, but end up with much less money and a worse
lifestyle. Now why is that? (and how can I fit it within my pre-existing
ideological bias?)

------
nailer
As well as the issues other posters have mentioned, the HN title (though not
the article) is misleading as the Greek retirement age was 55 until recently.

Working 40% longer hours each week, but cutting a decade off your career, does
not mean you work 40% longer.

------
anton_c
It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created.
"They spent a lot". Really? Who's to say? Did you ever wonder how much is
spend on high tech weapons by your government? Do you KNOW what YOUR country's
public debt is? Are YOU responsible for it (because you're gonna be held
accountable for it either way).

As easy as it is to buy mainstream media "analysis" it's also just that -
mainstream, meaning that it is designed to keep the powers that be from safe
from criticism.

What happens in Greece is that we're taking loans upon loans to save defaulted
banks that are based mainly in Greece, Germany and France. Tax evasion,
porsches' and the rest are dirty propaganda designed to hide the crime that's
being perpetuated. Saving failed capitalists (mainly banks up to now) by
robbing the laymen.

As for the tax evasion bit, it's mostly true if we are to speak for a small
fraction of the Greek population - namelly the rich and superrich Greeks. All
the rest are paying our due for nothing - meaning that our taxes (for me it's
about 50% of my gross income) are used to refinance loans and not a single
dime goes to roads,health or education.

Bear also in mind that for two decades every banks were all over people to
persuade them to get loans (sth like the mortgage situation in USA) which were
used to buy shit from Germany and France (that's why many say that these
countries surplasses are European south deficits). This was evident at a state
level too with huge amounts going to buy arms from these two countries. Arms
that were of no use.

Anyway, this issue is far from simple and what's more you, no matter where
you're from, are far from just spectators. What happens in Greece (namely the
ripoff of any hind of welfare state + the death of the middle class) is just
an experiment to be continued in virtually every western country. It's the way
that western capitalism wants to proceed - and bear in mind that what really
counts is workers wages (that have been slashed in Greece since the begining
of all this crisis) - many big heads waiving their finger have told us Greeks,
that the only way to get back to economic development again is to be OK with
chinese salaries. We're trying to take that fingers and put them back where
they belong and maybe you should try thinking your line of defense against
those failed bussinessmen and politicians.

A Greek.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created._

Greece has a problem with _government_ debt. How do you blame capitalism for
this?

 _What happens in Greece is that we're taking loans upon loans to save
defaulted banks that are based mainly in Greece, Germany and France._

If that is the only problem, why not simply default and let the banks fail?

~~~
pessimizer
They really need to, and a large portion of the populace seems to be fighting
for it.

Also, I'm not sure that we can blame Greek public debt for the rise in
interest rates that's actually killing the country, seeing as Spain is going
through a similar thing and they were running surpluses.

------
MrKurtHaeusler
Well obviously they should work less then. Most people I know who spend less
time working tend to enjoy life more, look better, have more money and live
longer.

Oh and they are more austere.

------
_k
We're led to believe the solution to this economic crisis is either getting
deeper in debt or more austerity measures (higher taxes, less subsidies) We're
led to believe it's either A or B. It's neither A or B for most countries. The
truth of the matter is that it's a political problem. We have to reduce the
size of the government.

~~~
novalis
... and jail the corrupt people that hold public office yet act against the
citizens in any way. Until that moment in time, nothing good will come out of
this and the status quo will just keep on rolling and smashing everyone in its
way.

------
jakeonthemove
Germans are known for their efficiency, not hard work. Besides, a rested
worker is more productive than an overworked one. Germany has got it right.

Also, starting a business in Germany is much easier than in Greece - it's on
par with the US and UK, while Greece is more restrictive for some reason...

~~~
Uchikoma
But only recently. It was a nightmare founding a limited 10 years ago (GmbH)
when I founded a startup, it's quite easy today when my wife founded a startup
(UG).

Many Germans founded Ltds in Britain on paper, that made the government see
the need to change some laws.

------
elorant
As a Greek I have to admit that this number tells half the truth. The other
half is that in terms of productivity Greece is very low. So while we may work
a lot more than the average German the quality of the products/services we
provide is significantly worse.

------
amueller
Fun thing that this article doesn't mention: in Germany it is very, very
common to work extra hours that are not paid and not in the books. This is
particularly true for high profile jobs.

~~~
kahawe
> _in Germany it is very, very common to work extra hours that are not paid
> and not in the books_

I am working in Germany and what are you talking about? More specifically
which industry? The employment laws here are so ridiculously pro-employee that
I basically need to "excuse" and justify myself if I was to work more than X
hours a week. And typically, at least in IT, a certain amount of overtime (or
a "flat charge") is in your contract and you get more salary for that - more
than the so called "collective agreement" requires your employer to pay you.
So for most people in regular jobs, I doubt this holds true. Maybe small IT
startups try to squeeze the youngens by circumventing all laws and
regulations? At least where I am working, typical German bigger but not huge
company, you can set your clock by how punctual they show up to and especially
leave work; shortly after 5pm they can start cleaning here because that's when
practically the whole building is empty except for some poor souls like me.

"High profile", executive level jobs are different, that is true but this is
to be expected at that level and pay rate and I doubt you will find any other
country where this doesn't hold true.

~~~
fforw
I think it's more common with larger companies and the corresponding 9-to-5
attitude.

I work for as architect for a small consultancy/software-development company
and I'm paid the same salary no matter how many hours I actually work.
Contract says 40 h/week, but there are weeks when I reach the 40 on wednesday.
MIght be able to work less than 40 hours when times are not as stressful
(haha), but the average has to be clearly above 40 h/week.

------
Tichy
I heard some of them even hold two full time jobs at the same time, receiving
double salary. And that is in government employment, one of the most stressful
jobs available in Greece.

------
balajiviswanath
As the 4 columns show, productivity & hours worked go diametrically opposite
(negatively correlated). All the countries in the most working list are also
in the least productive list. So, it still doesn't change the German assertion
that Greeks are not doing enough.

Second, the article itself accepts - " because the two labour markets are
structured differently, it is actually hard to compare like with like."

That means the headline is pointless as it is contradicted by the sentence
above.

------
vetler
Very interesting to see that Norway is the 2nd most productive, but ranks 3rd
in fewest hours worked! Makes me feel good about leaving work at four. ;)

~~~
gizzlon
But what is that number anyway? It's probably just GNP / people. ? Norway will
look good in that respect due to the oil.

~~~
vetler
Doesn't say, unfortunately.

"They are collected by individual national statistics authorities who each
have their own methods of collecting and collating information."

------
Produce
I am not surprised that the most hard working populations are the most
unproductive. The mythical man-hour doesn't just apply to software.

------
f4stjack
I don't know about Greece but the statistics in the page are quite disturbing
to read. You do long work hours to be more productive, but in the end
(probably it has more factors than that but I am simplifying it) it doesn't do
you any good so you do overtime, which damages your productivity even more...

This is the most damned vicious cycle I've ever seen I think...

------
gruseom
We keep hearing about the lazy Greeks being bailed out, but isn't it really
the banks who lent too much money to Greece who are being bailed out? If the
Greeks are so lazy and corrupt, then it was foolish to lend them so much. Why
should laziness be punished while foolishness is rewarded? Which poses the
greater systemic threat?

------
forgotAgain
This article would be much more beneficial if it went beyond pointing out
inaccuracies in common beliefs, and explained where they came from. As given
it simply regurgitates self reported government statistics and provides no
insight.

------
aoprisan
There is a difference between "working" and working.. "working" in a highly
inefficient system is very different than working fewer hours in a more
efficient system

------
mahmud
(If you were confused why the "Most X" column is not the same as "Least X" but
in reverse order, it's because the list is not exhaustive.)

------
woodpanel
When we talk about the shortcomings of Greece we should not forget that Greece
was under military dictatorship up until the middle of the 70's (as were Spain
and Portugal). And there were several terrorist bombings afterwards
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_N...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_November)
just to name one of many groups).

As a German I'm getting tired of painting the Greeks as lazy. It's rather
their country that's in a mess.

------
JoachimSchipper
Flagged for politics.

------
kahawe
One thing that I always find very unsettling when reading things like that:
how Germany is somehow always an epitome of efficiency and productiveness. I
am working here and I absolutely do NOT perceive it like that and friends who
are also working here confirmed that impression. We are constantly swapping
horror-stories of stupid bureaucracy, lengthy extremely bloated processes,
having to do things five times, lazy people, stupid people, people who have no
idea about their job and no education, tons of stupid "office wars/games"
going on, lengthy discussions about very petty things and just for the sake of
"but I was actually right" and so on and so forth...

The only conclusion is then, it is much much MUCH worse elsewhere? Really??
(Or is this just some sort of "halo effect"?)

------
conformal
working longer hours != working more or harder.

much of the financial problems in .gr (and .it) have occurred because many
citizens do not declare the bulk of their income, then, lo and behold, there
is insufficient tax revenue to pay for the myriad government services. there
are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR
50K income in 2010.

based on the fact that .gr has essentially committed long-term fraud with
their financials i put absolutely zero stock in any claim that "they're
working harder than germany".

sure, there are some greeks who work really hard and are productive, but if
you've spent any decent amount of time in other countries that border the
mediterranean sea you'll notice that their definition of "work" is very
different from most people from a less pleasant climate.

~~~
dagw
_there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared
over EUR 50K income in 2010_

That 'fact' is not only completely untrue, but utterly ridiculous and off by
several orders of magnitude. There where over 300000 people declaring of EUR
50k in income in 2010, while Porsche has sold 1500 Cayennes in Greece since
launch.

