
My Dad Asks HN: Should I Build A Hackerspace? - nickmolnar2
OK. Quick back story: Over dinner with my, real estate developer, father he got very interested in the idea of owning a building with a large hackerspace in it.<p>The idea would be that the tenants of the building would be hardware startups who would use the space during the day, and it would be open for hacking and workshops by night. The space would be extremely well stocked with gear (soldering guns to BUGBases and everything in between). The office space would be a separate business entity from the hackerspace, and the hackerspace could be community owned/non-profit with its own management.<p>So, what makes a great hackerspace? How do you make the community self-sustaining? Would you pay more to run your startup in the same building as one of these spaces?<p>If you lived in Vancouver, would you join?<p>Thanks a bunch, and I'll keep you posted as the idea progresses.
======
mattyfo
We just went through a lot of these questions ourself while founding Baltimore
Node (<http://www.baltimorenode.org>) which is now a small hackerspace in
Baltimore.

From what I am hearing from you I think what you want to do is three fold: (1)
have a workshop for people to work in, (2) have a coworking facility (office
space) and (3) to have a hackerspace.

The first one requires space and expensive tools.

The second requires a comfortable office space to work in.

The third requires a solid community that perceives the value of sharing ideas
and having a place exclusively for workshops.

I'm not going to say that serving all three goals is not possible but as we
explored them we found that without a donation of space and/or serious capital
investment the first two would be somewhat difficult.

We opted to go with the third option and stick to it (some tools in the space
though) and we are now profitable with 19 members at a $50 a month membership
fee. I think the real benefit to a hackerspace is being part of a community
that is about encouragment, sharing and doing.

It's been a blast so far and I am really glad to be part of this crew, I
strongly recommend if anything that you try to establish a simple non-profit
hackerspace to encourage general hackery.

Also, not sure why this hasn't come up yet, <http://hackerspaces.org>

~~~
nickmolnar2
Thanks for responding. It's great to hear from someone who has some first hand
experience with this process. It looks like you are running a cool
organization over there.

Hackerspaces.org has been a helpful resource for me as I was researching this
over the last week. I encourage anyone else who is interested in it to check
out some of their awesome projects to see what is possible.

My goal would be to have a serious capital injection to start this off. I
don't know where it is going to come from, but I am seriously looking into
government grants. I don't know what kind of strings will come attached yet,
and it sickens my inner objectivist, but it seems like a great match for this
kind of organization. BC happens to have a whole range of accessible grants,
from the arts to small business to tech. Maybe it will be too much hassle, but
it solves the problem of seed capital.

------
tjic
> The idea would be that the tenants of the building would be hardware
> startups who would use the space during the day, and it would be open for
> hacking and workshops by night.

So you're going to look for startups where all the employees leave by 5pm?

...and you're further going to tell them that their space is not secure, and
anything that they leave out on a desk will be seen by hundreds of strangers?

That sounds really...suboptimal.

~~~
nickmolnar2
These are fair concerns. I think they can be engineered around, however.

There would be lockers available, as well as secured office space. Also, the
office workers wouldn't have to leave by 5pm, it would just become more
crowded. There would need to be an efficient registration system to make sure
the shared resources were fairly allocated in these busy times.

~~~
trafficlight
It just sounds like too many rules and regulations to be useful.

~~~
nickmolnar2
I would love to know how other Hackerspaces have succeeded making their
equipment available to different groups with distinct needs.

------
lukec
VHS has been around for a year, and bootstrapped ourselves into our 45W space.
Our goal is to get into a bigger space in 6-12 months, as resources allow.

We've talked a lot over the past year about our future, our relation to other
similar ventures like Hacker Dojo, Workspace, ..., and where our values lie.
We're always looking for more people passionate about hacker spaces and
growing our community.

We really agree that top notch tutorials and courses are key, and we've just
started scheduling regular kit nights, featuring projects like a laser
spirograph, tv-b-gone and minty boosts. We also try to do hardware hacking
every tuesday night, and software nights every thursday. I also use VHS's
facilities to organize a Super Happy Hacker House every ~6 weeks.

If you haven't already, you should check out the hacker spaces design patters
PDF, it has lots of tips for building a great hackerspace.

VHS has a public night tonight - feel free to drop by and check out what we
offer. Tonight is a triage/cleanup night where we're going to go through our
vast donations and tidy the place up.

<http://hackspace.ca>

~~~
nickmolnar2
Sounds great. I can't get there until about 9, but sounds like a good time to
meet-and-greet-and-clean.

------
eugenejen
I am not sure will this be useful. But if you are interested in making a
hardware hacker space, The FabLab is a good reference point. They have listing
of the basic equipments. You probably can find the community of the
FabLab(<http://fab.cba.mit.edu/>).

How to make the community self sustaining is a big question. My opinion is in
the long run the hackerspace has to be profitable for its operation. At the
other hand, everyone likes to take advantage of low cost/free resources
without accountability. So how to design a system to encourage those startups
to grow and be profitable, taking accountability and give it back to others,
in order to create a positive feedback loop is really important.

I think the system can't not be centrally planning ahead, so you'd better to
be keen on community in the long run.

~~~
nickmolnar2
In my ideal vision of the hackerspace, the decisionmaking would be highly
decentralized. This would require a few hundred members, which would
undoubtedly take time. As an example, I would like to see a Donor's Choose
style approach to ongoing purchasing, where a portion of member dues is pre-
allocated to buying common goods.

Thanks for pointing out the FabLab. I'm familiar with the concept, but had
never read their complete inventory. Very helpful.

------
Rantenki
I think you should probably contact #VHS to see if they are interested, what
they have learned (they are currently running and in the black), and to gauge
interest.

<http://vancouver.hackspace.ca/doku.php>

In short, there seems to be plenty of interest, but other projects like
Workspace have failed by over-reaching their targets.

~~~
nickmolnar2
Thanks. They're on my 'to contact' list. Hell, maybe they'd even want to move
to an area with less junkies. They seem to have a great community, but they
have a terrible address.

I really like their 'principles' page. I think that's important to have up in
writing, publicly, and not fixed in stone.

Their insistence on GPL'ing everything might be an issue. I would hope that
most projects would be GPL'ed, but it would definitely limit the business
potential having it mandated.

~~~
jrbobdobbs
something to note.. vhs is not only GPL we have been taking about rewording
this for a while. Anything developed by VHS as a vhs group project is
CC/GPL/BSD/etc. That being said members are free to show up and work on their
proprietary projects. Also, open/group projects do get priority when it comes
to shared tools.

p.s. there is alot of awesome aside from the junkies in the dtes. ;]

~~~
nickmolnar2
Thanks for the clarification. That seems far more practical than what I was
imagining.

Encouraging open source and group projects is definitely going to be a
priority at whatever we end up building. I'd love to chat more with you about
other ways of doing that.

~~~
jrbobdobbs
is there a reason why you want to build another one and not improve the
current one? stop on by.. it is every ones space.. we actively encourage other
groups to come try and take us over =].

------
baddox
I would say it's not a good business decision, even though it sounds cool.
Just like internet cafes, I just can't see there being enough paying customers
to make it worth it.

~~~
jrockway
Indeed. See this for an example: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberport>

The idea was to build a complex with shared resources for high-tech companies.
They built the complex, but nobody is renting.

I was there last week, as I have a friend that works there, and there was
absolutely nobody there. It is probably the least populated point on Hong Kong
Island, including the mountains :)

~~~
nickmolnar2
Their mistake was going too high-end. Expensive glass buildings, deluxe
residences, high-end malls. I want something lean, dirty, and productive as
hell.

~~~
jrockway
_I want something lean, dirty, and productive as hell._

But does anyone else with money want that? Selling to YC startups is probably
not a good idea, because they have no money.

Corollary: there's a reason there are so many bland, boring office spaces --
they sell.

------
manvsmachine
It's a great idea in theory, but I don't think that the execution would go too
well. IMHO, startup founders and hackerspace users have much different
requirements for the space. If I'm working on a startup, I'd be coming to the
space when I need to _get work done_ , first and foremost.

That's very different from the hackerspace environment, which is largely a
_project space_. You don't know what will be worked on there or when; it might
just be guys hacking code, maybe a little soldering, but maybe not. Someone
might start up a robotics project; now you'll have welding / metalwork noise
going on. To get an idea of how widely hackerspace projects can range, check
out our project list: <http://wiki.freesideatlanta.org/project-list>.

The only way I could see this working is if you _severely_ limit the type of
activities that can be done in the hackerspace. But if you do this, I'm not
sure you'd get enough support for it to be sustainable.

EDIT: missed the fact that this is for _hardware_ startups. In that case, I
could see this working if the startups / hackers have separate workspaces as
well. That way, you wouldn't have to worry about separate hours.

~~~
nickmolnar2
I would imagine that some companies would start in the open hacker space with
a project and a locker and then grow into a closed office space/work-space.
Some others might already need their own space, but would just like to go down
to the hackerspace and occasionally borrow/use equipment. Others might have a
workshop and use the space as an ancillary lab.

I don't see why we couldn't accomodate all of those use-cases. The noise is an
issue, but hopefully we could have some areas that are far enough
away/sufficiently insulated from the heavy equipment/socializing to be
relatively quiet.

------
jey
Sounds impractical from the standpoint of making your money back. Also the
idea of having an equipment free-for-all is terrible. Equipment can only be
used by one person/team/company at a time, so you need to make sure there's a
reasonable economy to allocate the resources fairly according to
supply/demand. You could maybe set it up so that the equipment is rented at
some rates, but all tenants get a certain amount of free equipment rental per
month.

~~~
nickmolnar2
There definitely needs to be a very powerful reservation system. Some high-
paying members might be able to rent out certain pieces of equipment for days
at a time, while others would only be able to access it when vacant. You would
not want somebody monkeying around with your C&C machine while you were taking
a 2 hour break.

It would certainly require some good software, and community support. Maybe
the different pricing levels would allow you to book equipment further and
further in advance, to ensure availability for big projects.

------
bmann
There aren't a lot of hardware startups in Vancouver. I would argue that there
are many less hardware startups in general.

TechShop has actually come up to Vancouver and given a presentation to the
VanTec angels. Working on expanding an existing business might be a lot
easier.

The Bootup Entrepreneurial Society (<http://bootup.ca>) of which I am on the
board, would likely be interested in supporting this. If your dad wants to buy
us a building, we'll run it :P

------
spoiledtechie
Its def an idea I have been playing with as well, but have no financial
backing yet.

Expenses could be paid in a variety of ways. 1\. Membership dues. 2\.
Promissory notes. That if you did make it big or make a profit a percent or
cut of that would go back to the hackerspace. 3\. Adverts on the equipment
used.

I think the biggest thing was the notes to pay back a certain percentage... So
you would def need some capital to make some profit on this one tho.

~~~
nickmolnar2
There are a few other ways to make it self-sustaining.

While you could provide free/open access some of the time, you could charge
for 24/7 access and locker space. You could also rent out the space for
occasional seminars/workshops/corporate off-sites.

Shipping/receiving for parts orders might be handy if many of the occupants
have a day job.

There is also the possibility of government grants which, especially in
Canada, are available for this kind of program. They would, at least, get the
project off the ground even if they weren't used for running expenses.

I do like the idea of promissory notes. That is a great way to fundraise. I
think, no matter how we raise the initial capital, the running profits of the
hackerspace will stay invested in the hackerspace. I like the idea of it being
a self-sufficient organization and suspect the profits on our end could be
made just by what the space does to the real estate value.

------
prpon
Here's an article from Entrepreneur magazine this month that talks about
people who are successfully doing it.
[http://www.entrepreneur.com/magazine/entrepreneur/2009/octob...](http://www.entrepreneur.com/magazine/entrepreneur/2009/october/203414.html)

It would be hard to imagine being profitable (or sustainable) just focusing on
hardware. It can sustain itself if you broaden your audience.

~~~
nickmolnar2
Well, if you have a desk you can have a software company. It might be possible
to offer memberships that have limited access to the lab but still have access
to conference rooms, desks, printers, reception, etc.

------
mey
Sounds like <http://techshop.ws/> or <http://portlandtechshop.com/>

Both sites have a breakdown of what they have on site, and you could get an
idea of the pricing. It may also be a good idea to get in touch with the
people who own/run it to get their take on the business side.

~~~
nickmolnar2
Techshop does a killer job with their classes. I think that's an essential
part of making this thing self-sustaining.

------
Mankhool
Assuming that some hackers were using "Workspace" in Vancouver, you should
know that it closed in August for lack of business. "The Network Hub",
however, seems to be alive and well. I think it's an interesting idea, but I
also think lots of research needs to be done - especially finding out how
hardware startups like to work. How do we contact you?

~~~
nickmolnar2
iam (at) nicholasmolnar dot com

Love to hear from you. I am hearing good things about The Network Hub all over
the place. I'm going to pay a visit next week. I also did hear about
Workspace. I'd love to dig deeper and see if there are some lessons to be
learned.

------
edwardog
If I was still in Vancouver, I know I’d be there for sure!

While you’re researching, check out Montreal’s Foulab:
<http://www.foulab.org/> [http://makekw.org/montreals-foulab-featured-
documentary-shor...](http://makekw.org/montreals-foulab-featured-documentary-
short)

~~~
nickmolnar2
Foulab was actually the impetus for this conversation. I used to live in
Montreal, although I only heard about it after I left (from an old friend).
It's a great, lean, model and I definitely intend to visit next time I am in
Montreal.

Saturday House was my other inspiration. I used to attend religiously when I
lived in Seattle, and was always impressed with the level of discussion and
the collective intelligence of the members. It seemed like it should have been
the center of something bigger.

------
mcantelon
In adding to contacting VHS (dedicated Vancouver hackspace), as suggested by
Rantenki, I've heard that Bootup Labs (Boris Mann and co.) are looking for
funding for a startup/coworking space (to substitute for the now defunct
Workspace). Maybe you can join forces.

~~~
nickmolnar2
I really have to meet those guys anyways. Everywhere I go in Vancouver, I seem
to be hearing about them these days. Always good things. It seems like they
are successfully kickstarting the startup scene here. Their events are usually
more packed than the ones I went to in Seattle, which says something of the
growth.

Three or four years ago, the Vancouver startup scene was pretty anemic. There
were some gaming companies, a few startups, and a dearth of any events to
spread ideas between them.

------
8plot
Since hardware hacking is in some ways similar to making (and practicing)
music, perhaps the shared band spaces where many bands group together to share
practice space, equipment and recording studios would be a good model to start
from.

~~~
nickmolnar2
That's a great thought. They are very similar (high capital costs, skilled
machinery, loud).

------
dbreunig
I'd look to see where built in audiences exist. Are their any congruent groups
in the area that you could associate with? Then you have speakers, experts
possibly built in.

Anything to get you starting higher than the ground floor would be ideal

