
Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights - nsxwolf
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20130525/news/705259921/
======
tokenadult
"But John Dryden said he's not the point. He wants people to focus on the
issue he raised: Whether school officials considered that students could
incriminate themselves with their answers to the survey that included
questions about drug and alcohol use."

To me, that sounds like an unusually thoughtful social studies teacher. He is
relating the general concepts that he is hired to teach his students to a
real-world situation facing the students, and that sounds like good teaching
to me. He ought to get a promotion or a raise, based only on this news about
his public behavior in the classroom.

It is, of course, sometimes appropriate for schools to distribute surveys to
minor students in their care on which there may be questions about student
behavior that may be embarrassing or illegal. But the teacher, based on the
report here, is just asking his students to think about their lessons and what
those lessons mean, not trying to undermine the survey process.

"But Dryden doesn't want this seen as him vs. the administrators. He said he
knows they were acting in what they thought was the best interests of the
students.

"'These are good, professional, smart people on the other side who want to do
what is right by kids,' he said.

"He would rather focus the discussion on the survey.

"'I have asked people (the supporters) to talk about the survey. I think I am
a sideshow,' he said. 'This (the survey) was rushed and it wasn't vetted.'

"'I'm not a martyr,' he said. 'I'm trying to refocus people's attentions. Calm
down.'"

~~~
nsxwolf
I really want to understand this "proprietary information" excuse the school
is using to justify not releasing the survey. Certainly the kids can go home
and tell their parents what they saw (and some have). The kids didn't sign an
NDA, they saw it, so why can't we see it?

This story is happening in my town. There is a public hearing tomorrow night
and I plan on attending.

~~~
specialist
_There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending._

That's awesome. This is what democracy looks like.

I got hooked attending some townhalls on my pet topic. I've learned so much
about politics, policy, etc. these last 8 years.

#1 Show up.

#2 Keep showing up.

#3 Bring your friends.

It's ridiculous how few people shape policy. The upside is adding a few more
people to the debate can significantly shape outcomes.

If you become credible (learn a topic well enough to speak to all points), and
you pack council chambers with your supporters, you will change policy.

Everyone focuses on campaigns. The real action is in policy. Politics is a
dirty, filthy business, but it's still worthwhile.

I strongly recommend Camp Wellstone. There's an "activist" track. Anyone aware
of methodology or project management will grok their techniques immediately.
The focus is policy vs products.

<http://www.wellstone.org/programs/camp-wellstone>

~~~
rdtsc
Interesting. Who else shows up? Do local corporations send representatives and
"experts"? What is the average profile of attendees?

~~~
specialist
Depends on the issue.

For election integrity, it was a small group of us vs everyone else. I've
testified opposite Mark Radke of Diebold, county auditors, county executives,
election administrators, retired generals, people representing the disabled
community, etc.

One time, our issue followed the kittens and puppies on the agenda. Something
about a kennel. Council was PACKED. EVERYONE showed up for the puppies and
kittens.

Whereas it was just me and my cohort representing the interests of democracy.
Looking at the turnout for the puppies and kittens, I turned to my cohort and
said "We're doing this wrong."

The times we "won", it was either because we packed the hearing or I had
better (embarrassing) information.

------
downandout
The teacher was absolutely correct to warn these kids, and it's absurd that
the district would to try to punish him over it. No good things can come from
answering questions like this on a personally identifiable survey. The school
even stated that the intent was to identify and help at-risk students -
meaning the information was going to be reviewed, discussed by and disclosed
to staff, put in the students' files, and acted upon. There is absolutely
nothing that would stop this survey from making it to college admissions
offices, law enforcement, parents, etc.

The fact that the district wouldn't have instructed all teachers to notify
students of the potential ramifications of answering such questions is a big
problem. If any of the data later has a negative impact on someone's child,
the district may have some legal liability. This teacher should actually be
rewarded potentially shielding the district from a lawsuit.

------
jliechti1
Alumni here.

Wow, this has been circulating among my Facebook friends and I saw the article
when it came out. Did not expect to see it on the front page of HN.

I'll try to add a little more information. The article mentions it briefly,
but suicide has become a big issue in Batavia[0]. I know of at least the first
2 suicides - two friends (or possibly boyfriend/girlfriend, can't say for
sure), roughly 6 months apart. These events were completely unprecedented and
were a shock to the quiet, safe, middle-class town.

Major props to Dryden for standing up to the this. Although I never had him
for a teacher when I was in school, many of my friends were influenced by him.

I'll ask some friends if they remember any of the survey questions, and post
them here if I can.

Also, I look forward to nsxwolf's (another Batavian!) notes from the city
council meeting.

[0]: Read a little more here:
[http://www.kcchronicle.com/mobile/article.xml/articles/2013/...](http://www.kcchronicle.com/mobile/article.xml/articles/2013/02/05/r_aqjqk0xjray1vckqfo0mog/index.xml)

------
coldcode
Why are questions asked of students copyrighted so as to not allow any
visibility to parents? If I had a child required to answer potentially
incriminating questions at school I would want public scrutiny, otherwise this
becomes a kind of secret inquisition.

~~~
rdtsc
Here is how I see it possibly played out.

* School district sees all these school shootings, news reports of troubled teens, suicides, bullying and how badly it reflect on the district.

* School district employs below average intelligence administrators who are easily manipulated and controlled by contractors, lobbyists, salesmen, suppliers. Either an administrator or one such salesperson from the test administration company came up with the idea of providing these proprietary tests.

* Tests are touted as an easy, spray and pray instrument "just give them this test for which we'll charge $500 a pop and you'll easily weed out ones who (wink wink) need help."

* This is how the school district solves its paper problem, computer problems, fixing the cracks in the asphalt in the parking lot problem. They are approached by salesmen and given gifts and dinners and are sold "solutions".

* The more overpriced and expensive the solution the more sleeker the sales pitch. "You don't want to end up like Columbine, OR DO YOU?" maybe stuff like "What if Columbine happened here, could you tell the parents that you DID EVERYTHING YOU COULD?" and so on.

* It is not that hard to scare these people into anything. At best it was a plain ol' sales pitch. At worst there were shady deals going on "We'll buy your son a new car if you buy this package"

* Test instrument comes with strict copyright rules (not that unusual for psych and personality test packets), disclosure rules, but I don't think that is that uncommon.

* Administrators buy in. Cha-ching for the testing company and all is well, ...

* Except for one teacher who actually is doing his job and applies his subject to the real world. So we have this story.

* Now I wonder how frequent this stuff is and how many other school districts are doing this, but which don't have teacher like this who like to "stir the pot".

~~~
LekkoscPiwa
>School district employs below average intelligence administrators who are
easily manipulated and controlled by contractors, lobbyists, salesmen,
suppliers.

So if the corruption is the problem why they don't get questioned by the
Police?

~~~
rdtsc
There is moral corruption and legal corruption. They can go through all the
legal channels (just like lobbyists in US congress do) and still act morally
corrupt and shady.

Promises of gifts, expensive trips, retreats to exotic islands, scholarships
for family members, all kinds of other perks can be used to help facilitate
deals with vendors.

------
maxcan
The school is also trying to teach students a valuable civics lesson: your
rights are minimal and the principle function of the state is the furtherance
of the careers of the bureaucrats who compose the state. Anything that
inconveniences them will be met with all the power they can muster.

~~~
kybernetikos
Abuse of treason convictions had occurred so much in England that the framers
specifically defined it in the constitution (apparently the only crime to get
such a treatment).

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against
them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

I don't necessarily think they were right on everything, but they were right
on this. You really don't want to live in a state where Treason is an
accusation thrown around lightly.

~~~
emiliobumachar
You meant to reply to sk5t's comment, did you not? Your explanation seems to
make much more sense as a reply to that than to your parent.

~~~
kybernetikos
Weird. Thanks for pointing that out. Not sure how I ended up doing that. I'll
copy it to the right place, but sadly it's too late to delete it here.

------
mcallan83
I work in Batavia and it was nice to see this make the front page of Hacker
News.

Just wanted to point out that the hearing taking place tonight will probably
be recorded by BATV (<http://batv.us/>) and available to stream later in the
week. Once the recording is posted, I will update with a direct link.

~~~
mcallan83
I am told the video of tonight's hearing will be put up on YouTube on Thursday
at <https://www.youtube.com/user/BATV1017>. If I hear anything else, I will
post here.

------
DanBC
Did they risk manage this survey?

What do they do if a student reveals an alcohol problem? Or sexual abuse? Or
criminal behaviour?

It's potentially a good idea, but they should have thought it through a bit
more before.

EDIT: The company selling the tests have a lot of product available.
(<http://www.mhs.com/Education.aspx>)

EDIT: I might be annoyed if schools are buying these tests instead of
textbooks.

~~~
genwin
Per the school's zero tolerance policy, students who reveal alcohol or drug
use are expelled at no risk to the school. I don't agree with their method but
it is pretty simple.

~~~
grecy
Wow. Are the students told that beforehand?

I think a shocking consequence is students will now feel unsafe telling the
truth about troubling events (abuse, etc.)

~~~
bigiain
Cynical-me thinks this is ideal education - proper preparation for "the real
world": Answer every question not with "the truth", but instead work out what
"the expected answer" is and give them that...

~~~
genwin
I've hounded my kids on "the expected answer" many times. Recently my son was
told to write an essay on gun control. I shudder to think what might've
happened had he not given the expected conclusion on that one.

~~~
C1D
What is the expected opinion on that. I'm not from the US.

~~~
genwin
For a school the expected opinion is that less guns is better.

~~~
jkubicek
That's highly dependent on the school. At my high school (rural Iowa) I can't
see anyone taking issue with a pro-gun stance on a essay.

------
honzzz
Social research 101: any non-anonymous questionnaire asking sensitive
questions is totally useless. Social studies freshman would get F for that.
Regardless of 5th amendment issues... how could anyone pay for that is beyond
me - that school is wasting taxpayers money.

------
danbruc
Does this kind of survey make any sense? Why should somebody answer honestly
if the survey is not anonymous and you don't want to admit something? If you
want to admit something, such an survey may at best catalyze it. Therefore I
would expect that the result of such an survey just does not reflect reality.

You could cross check answers of a well designed survey to get an indication
if the answers are honest or not but this does not nearly bring the result
close to an anonymous but more honestly answered survey.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Exactly. So many comments here assume that students wouldn't lie on this
survey, which I think is an ridiculous assumption. From my experience,
students are afraid to be overly honest on anonymous feedback surveys just
because of the possibility teacher will recognize the handwriting. There's no
way they would fill in truthfully a non-anonymous survey that could get them
in a world of trouble.

------
venomsnake
If only we could remove these pesky kids from the school ... then we could
have perfect teaching environment. Perfect lessons with no delay in empty
classes. The school will hum like a well tuned V8.

But with their rights, troubles and teenage rebellion - how dare they disrupt
the perfect teaching set up by bureaucracy by being themselves.

The fact that a survey is needed means that the system has already failed the
students. And the idea of it being non anonymous means that the persons
responsible have no idea at all how to deal with children. The school is there
to guide the young ones during one very hard period in a person's life. It
should be relationship based on trust not intimidation. But instead we get
administrators that think of themselves as sheriffs that must be tough on
crime.

But the mantra is protect the children (which we do for ourselves) and not do
something good for the children.

------
rayiner
The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly.
From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any
criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, _as a witness_
, in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-
incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in criminal
cases. While the 5th amendment has been interpreted to apply to many different
proceedings (not just criminal cases, as in the text of the amendment), there
must be some sort of proceeding of a disciplinary nature.

If the survey results were not shared with the police or intended to be used
in a criminal case, it's quite likely not the case that the 5th amendment was
implicated at all.

~~~
AaronI
Use of the privilege is not based on the type of proceeding (ie, it applies to
more than just criminal cases), but upon the nature of the statement or
admission and the exposure that would invite. Precedent has shown self-
incrimination is enforceable in non-disciplinary public school "proceedings".

If the students were "coerced" or "compelled" to take a survey that may self-
incriminate them, then it could probably be shown the privilege did apply.

~~~
darkarmani
> If the students were "coerced" or "compelled" to take a survey that may
> self-incriminate them, then it could probably be shown the privilege did
> apply.

This is actually a gray area. My understanding is that this isn't true until
the school administrators call the police in. Before that, they are not agents
of the police and they don't have to mirandize you. It's also cloudy because
the administrators are seen as in loco parentis (in place of the parents).
Here is the wikipedia article that details the changing case law around what
_public_ school administrators can do w/r/t the bill of rights.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis#Primary_and_se...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis#Primary_and_secondary_education)

------
bx_
Off-topic, but how does it work that when I load that site I get an
advertisement for The Lorax (<http://i.imgur.com/y6eke4T.jpg>), a character
with whom John Dryden happens to share several key features? I understand
showing ads by keyword (the alcohol ad as alcohol is mentioned in the article
several times...) but facial similarity based advertising?! I'm speechless.

~~~
logn
Maybe a coincidence? There's also mention of 'kids', 'school', 'students',
etc. However, I'd guess the technology is there to do facial recognition...
not sure how that's effective for any advertiser's end goals though... except
maybe certain cases of demographics, like if you are on a body building
website then you show ads that have people with big necks.

~~~
bx_
If it's coincidence, it's an incredible one. I reloaded the site two more
times, and got The Lorax repeatedly. If it's not coincidence, am I supposed to
look at Mr. Dryden and think "I want to see The Lorax... oh how convenient!
There it is! _click_ "?

------
superdude
"Superintendent Jack Barshinger said teacher support for doing a survey grew
after several suicides by students in recent years. Students and staff
typically said they had no idea those teens were in distress.

'We can't help them if we aren't aware of their needs,' Barshinger said."

Honest question: Could a survey to high school students truly help suicidal
teens?

~~~
prawks
I can't imagine suicidal teens would be any more likely to admit to suicidal
thoughts on a survey with their name on it than they would a
counselor/parent/teacher/etc.

------
ams6110
Every such survey that has been given to my kids was always preceeded by a
notice sent home, including opt-out instructions if the parent did not wish
the student to participate.

When I was in school, I know a fair number of kids just filled in bubbles at
random on these things anyway.

------
TeMPOraL
There is no way this survey could have worked anyway. How do they expect that
kids - who know their school and parents are against them drinking or using
drugs - answer questions truthfully on a non-anonymous survey? The only people
I can imagine who would not lie on this survey are kids who care more about
the truth than possible consequences to them and kids with an IQ of a potato.
And I think the former ones are not the trouble kids the school is looking
for.

------
Fuxy
Since when is advising people of their rights a punishable offense? Talk about
double standards America. "Here's your rights...don't even think about using
them or we will punish you!" And the most revolting of all the school board
actually think this is ok? I wouldn't want these people training my dog let
alone teaching my children.

~~~
polymatter
see (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification>). Knowledge of its
existence makes you unsuitable for jury service (in some jurisdictions).

------
diminoten
I wonder if, legally, kids have identical Constitutional rights. They
certainly don't have the 4th (not in the sense that an adult has it), for
example, and I wonder if Juvenile courts have to give the 6th.

~~~
herge
The first amendment of the US constitution is curtailed in schools in specific
instances:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_amendment_to_the_united_s...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_amendment_to_the_united_states_constitution#School_speech)

------
JoeKM
The origins of this survey need to be audited and investigated. Some school
districts are notoriously greedy and only care about their bottom-line: test
scores. The higher scores, the more money (for the district and for their
salaries). I'm sure they correlated drug habits with low test scores, and
sought to extradite delinquents from their schools. Perhaps even a precursor
to this: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline>

------
cpeterso
> _The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional
> learning standards set by the state._

What are "social-emotional learning standards"??

~~~
theorique
Edu-babble word for "age-specific maturity" and similar concepts.

i.e. does the child behave with typical maturity for a child of his age?

------
tss20147
He had two obligations, his moral obligations to his students and his
obligation as a school system employee, which were in conflict. He choose his
moral obligation to his students, but in doing so violated his obligation as a
school system employee. The school system did not ask him to perform anything
illegal or definitively immoral. It is therefore correct for the school system
to punish him for this violation.

~~~
PeterisP
If the school system asked him to do something, anything that is in conflict
with his moral obligations to students - as you claim - then it _DID_ ask him
to perform something immoral.

~~~
tss20147
I should have been clearer. From his point of view he had a moral obligation
to his students. I actually don't think he did.

The school system should be following a combination of legal code and the
generally accepted morals of the community they represent. Notification was
provided to parents. Parents could opt out and there was no general movement
by parents to prevent the survey. The school therefore didn't ask him to do
anything which is "definitively immoral".

People including myself have to make judgements like this at different times
during their career. I have worked for companies which have asked me to
perform actions which I personally have found against my moral code but which
aren't illegal and may not be considered immoral by society as a whole.
Sometimes I have done them and other times I have not. It has depended on how
large of a violation of my own moral code I though it was. Anytime I have
refused I have fully expected and received negative reactions from my
employer. To actively interfere with the goals or requests of your employer
and not expect a negative reaction is just idiotic.

------
ignostic
While I'm sure the survey was (probably) administered with the best of
intentions, it was poorly anonymized and thus both risky and completely
invalid.

------
dmourati
All I could think of was Tron Carter: "I pleads the fizivth":
[http://www.comedycentral.com/video-
clips/3vk26x/chappelle-s-...](http://www.comedycentral.com/video-
clips/3vk26x/chappelle-s-show-tron-carter-s-law---order)

------
Ihmahr
This is what happens to good people.

------
patrickmay
I'm rather surprised that not one student published a picture of the survey
from a cell phone.

------
sk5t
I should like to see the administrator who initiated disciplinary proceedings
against this teacher tried and convicted for treason.

~~~
kybernetikos
[copied from above, sorry for posting in the wrong place]

Abuse of treason convictions had occurred so much in England that the framers
specifically defined it in the constitution (apparently the only crime to get
such a treatment).

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against
them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

I don't necessarily think they were right on everything, but they were right
on this. You really don't want to live in a state where Treason is an
accusation thrown around lightly.

------
josscrowcroft
Oh America.

------
donjigweed
The dude abides

------
danbmil99
Assuming he's a public school teacher, he's very unlikely to be fired over
this, or anything.

~~~
danbmil99
More like Reddit to be downvoted for the truth. Public School teachers in the
USA generally have very good job protection, it's a fact. You can say it's
fine, there's good reason for it (for instance perhaps in this case), but why
downvote a fact?

