
Ask HN: Can someone refer me to a designer that doesn't suck? - Zarathu
I used to be a freelance web developer. (Before you ask: vim, Rails, MacBook Pro, and BSD servers - OpenBSD to store private data, and FreeBSD to scale; everything else is for failures)<p>The biggest pain about this, clients aside, is having to deal with the designers. I understand that they use a different part of the brain than I do, but some things are simply ridiculous.<p>From my experience in dealing with them, designers can either produce incredible work but be extremely difficult to work with, or produce eye pollution and be great to work with.<p>Does anyone know of a designer that produces good work without making you want to kill yourself? If you're a designer looking for work, send your portfolio to nick[at]whitepaperclip[dot]com<p>[edit] Web work; I don't want HTML/CSS coded.<p>My email is nick[at]whitepaperclip[dot]com
======
Chris_G
You sound like a programmer that is "difficult."

It also sounds like you're the type of programmer that doesn't treat designers
with any respect, so they likely reciprocate -- the type that doesn't like to
collaborate, but just boss people around (it's more than apparent from your
post that you sneeringly look down upon the design profession). In short, you
come across like a huge jerk and I can't imagine what it must be like to work
with you.

Let me see, according to you, designers that are "great to work with" (the
ones that just shut-up and do whatever you tell them) produce "eye pollution".
The ones that are "difficult" (have opinions and give input whether you want
to hear it or not) end up producing "incredible work", but you just hate
working with them.

Ever consider that the problem might be you?

~~~
Zarathu
No! I realize that I sounded like a bit of a dick in my post, but that's just
how I write. Let me elaborate.

I've contracted a designer before (an HNer, mind you) that literally told me
that he was working on the design for about 3 weeks, without showing me any
form of progress whatsoever. On the last day we were working together, he
said, "I've been busy, and I haven't had time to work on it. Find another
designer." He had been jerking me around the entire time without doing an hour
of the work, and later admit it.

This has happened on more than one occasion. He had a brilliant portfolio.

The ones that are difficult aren't difficult because they give me opinions; in
fact, that's what helps to make a great designer. I like creative people that
come up with their own ideas.

~~~
Chris_G
Draw a triangle.

On each corner, write:

> Quality Work > Timely Delivery > Economical Price

You're ONLY ever allowed to choose TWO.

> If you want quality work produced in a timely fashion, then expect to pay
> top-dollar.

> If you want work turned around fast and don't have any money to spend,
> expect the quality to be crap.

> If you want quality work and don't have a big budget, expect it to be
> attended to whenever the the service provider has some free time.

It is a maxim of business that you will never escape.

This is true of any profession, and is especially true of both programmers and
designers alike.

If you are paying proper compensation, you should never have a problem getting
quality work, by a designer that makes delivery of your goods a priority.
Perhaps you found a bad apple, and that is unfortunate. If so, then the market
should weed them out in time. But you say the designer did great work, and it
sounds like they had plenty of good-paying projects elsewhere and you simply
got back-burnered (and they were not candid with you, as they should have
been). I've seen it happen a dozen times is every line of work.

\----------

I forgive you for how you came across in your initial post. I'm also told that
I'm a friendly fellow who sometimes comes across as... blunt, in writing.

~~~
radu_floricica
I had the same kind of experiences as the OP. Part of what I found frustrating
is that they don't respect the "2 out of 3" rule (which is mostly for
engineers btw). What the designer in OP's case showed was an astounding lack
of respect and common sense. I doubt compensation was a factor.

Some time ago I tried to find a copywriter to help me with a marketing
campain. I talked with two people, and both were very interested, actually
enthusiastic when I told them the concept. Both said (which made me protest
and feel rather unconfortable) that they don't want to discuss compensation in
the beginning, part because they want to give the project a shot anyways just
to see what it looks like, and part because they don't know the amount of work
beforehand.

After a week one of them didn't answer my phone calls, and the other sent a
couple of texts completely off-topic, and obviously not very worked. I ended
up writing the texts myself.

The moral of the story is that it's not a money problem. But that a percentage
of "artistic types", in both mine and OP's experience, tend to show less
professionalism then desired.

~~~
Kaizyn
Your copywriters gave you a strong signal as to their professionalism when
they did not want to discuss compensation up front. In the future, you should
now know that anyone who does not discuss the business contract before
rendering any services is either: 1) very inexperienced but may still work out
or 2) not someone you'd ever want to work with.

------
henriklied
I can name a couple. Both from Norway, both a joy to work with.

Ole Martin Kristiansen: <http://piraja.no>

Does outstanding work, plain and simple. I'm a Django developer, and I've
worked with him on a couple of projects. Without prior knowledge to the way
Django templates work, he was able to pick up very fast. Has good knowledge of
Wordpress. (Full disclosure: I developed the system behind that site)

Simon Bognø: <http://simonsays.no>

As you can see on his site, I've already made a public recommendation. :-)
Fantastic fellow, also does tremendous work. Has good knowledge of Wordpress,
and was able to get an understanding of Django's templates quickly.

I don't really do a lot in the Rails space, so I can't tell you if they're a
great fit there… But all in all I'd say they're great designers, and more
important, great people to work with.

Edit:

Oh, and Jesse Bennett-Chamberlain of <http://31three.com> markets himself as a
person who provides "Creative services for the design-challenged developer".
Never talked to the guy, though.

~~~
Zarathu
HIRED!

(Well, that was easy. I wish I could up-vote this 100 times.)

~~~
miles
If you don't mind sharing, which of the three designers mentioned did you hire
and why?

~~~
_Lemon_
(I realise I'm not Zarathu!)

I preferred the third one because their website was more usable -- all work
was on one page and all I had to do was scroll down. Unlike the others where I
had to click specific projects then view pictures 1, 2, 3, 4... real turn-off
when I'm trying to easily compare all three together.

The third also looks like there has been a real effort and focus on usable
websites without a disregard for looks which is essentially what I would be
looking for.

------
lkrubner
I'll mention some names in a moment. First, I want to offer an anecdote about
the extent to which brains can be wired differently.

For awhile I was in a business partnership where I wrote code and I worked
with a designer. One day a friend told us that she had started a new yoga
studio and she wanted to show us her new business card, which was done in the
shape of a bookmark - long and narrow. At the top was a photo, at the bottom
was a quote from Hinduism. The quote was about acceptance and suffering.

The next day myself and my partner were at restaurant. The service was
terrible. I jokingly repeated the quote about acceptance and suffering. My
partner gave me a blank look.

"I'm quoting from that business card that we saw yesterday," I said.

"What quote?" she asked.

"The text at the bottom."

"I don't remember it."

"It was under the photo."

She then began describing the photo. She remembered in astonishing detail -
camera angle, lighting, pose, shadows. I hardly remembered it at all.

It struck me that I had a good memory for text, whereas my partner had a good
visual memory. And I've noticed that is fairly common division among
programmers and designers.

The point of this story is that programmers and designers have brains that are
wired in very different ways. I assume some of that difference in wiring is
essential for any of us to be good at what we do.

Having said all that, I'd say the best designer I've worked with, and who is
currently open to accepting free-lance work, is Darren Hoyt:
<http://www.darrenhoyt.com/>

~~~
benhoyt
Darren has a great last name, too.

------
oneplusone
I do freelance graphic design while not working on my startup. I don't have an
online portfolio because I don't really need one. I worked for FreshBooks
(<http://www.freshbooks.com>) up until a month ago. You can also take a look
at my startup Guestlist (<http://www.guestlistapp.com>)

I specialize in interface design for web applications.

My standard rate is $75/hour.

~~~
smikhanov
A humble question form design-challenged developer: at $75/hr how long would
it take to design a prototype of a site similar to the Guestlist of yours
(i.e. what's the total price usually)?

~~~
oneplusone
It would cost around $8-12k for a decent sized website. Our website is pretty
small and had the benefit of carrying over a lot of assets from the
application itself so 3-4k? I am actually working on evolving the site because
I am not happy with where it is right now.

Of course design needs time to bake in the oven. You can't grind out a website
every two weeks. I normally design a page and then forget about it for at
least a day so I can get a fresh look at it. Sometimes you stumble upon the
right design the first time, sometimes you need to go through dozens of ideas.
It's all very unpredictable.

For the application itself that is a different story. It is a tremendous
amount of work designing a app from the ground up so we are talking 80-100k at
least. (I did all the HTML + CSS as well) Took me about a year worth of
weekends to get it where it is right now. Being a co-founder I also got to
make a lot of decisions without any input so it makes things move a lot
faster.

~~~
csmeder
Wow, I like your app a lot. Its beautiful and the idea is very good.

I am co-founding a startup and much of the design work will be done by me.
Would you be willing to share any tips? What I would really like to know is
how are those 160 hours spent? (160hours*$75=$12000)

The software life cycle is well documented in a number of methodologies: XP,
iterative, water fall etc. But when it comes to the design phase of a web app
I feel left in the dark.

What I am wondering is what techniques are you using during those 160 hours,
in what order and what percentage is spent on each?

\----------------------------------

For example: (a quick guess) it would be something like this:

\- gather requirements - 10 hours

\- draw mock ups on paper - 20 hours

\- draw prototypes in illustrator - 20 hours

\- make designs in illustrator - 50 hours

\- review with customer (self)- 10 hours

\- iterate on designs in illustrator - 50 hours

\-----------------------------------

Do you have any tricks of the trade
([http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/how_to/tricks_of_the_...](http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/how_to/tricks_of_the_trade.php))?

~~~
oneplusone
At Guestlist we believe in short iteration and customer feedback. The best
advice I can give you is to ignore the waterfall method of design that would
have you believe you need to "gather requirements, sketch, create wireframe,
etc." in order to be successful. There is value to such a method (if only to
create a paper trail that you can use to sell your design) when you are
working for clients, but when you are a co-founder the absolute best way to go
about is to simple do it.

Start with a specific section of your app and create a mockup in Photoshop.
Work on it until you are happy and then implement it. Don't do 10 different
variations. Don't worry if you don't know how everything is going to fit
together. Just get it working so you can move onto a different page.

The first designs we implemented at Guestlist were pretty terrible in
retrospect. It had a lot of fatal logic flaws. We had no idea what our initial
feature set would be. We knew we needed a public event pages so we started
there. However, as we added more and more pages we realized our first couple
of pages where shit so went back and iterated over them. Given enough time and
iterations things will start taking shape. Just take a look at the very first
mockup I did: <http://dl.dropbox.com/u/410315/event.jpg> It looks nothing like
what we currently have. For reference here is the current public page:
<http://guestlistapp.com/events/7311>

Now, it may seem like you could follow the 37Signals route and simply skip the
Photoshop step altogether and get to using it faster. _Don't do this._ You
cannot be creative with CSS. The Photoshop stage gives you a chance to do
crazy things and not think with boxes.

This can also be applied to websites. The current Guestlist website is very
weak in my opinion. It was created over a weekend. There is a much improved
version in the pipeline. Not a radically different site, but an evolution that
iterates over the weak areas.

The key is to never stop iterating. Never lock down the design. Never let
somebody tell you you can't do something because it's inconsistent with the
rest of the site. Just change the rest of the site too! Design must evolve
constantly.

------
rimantas
Interesting that this was not mentioned yet: <http://haystack.com/>

~~~
jlees
It crossed my mind, but it really doesn't answer the OP's specific need for a
recommendation of someone he can happily work with.

I've heard it said that Haystack really just shows you the middle quartiles of
designers. The top quartile don't need to list themselves; the bottom quartile
don't have an exciting enough portfolio to do so. I dunno, maybe there are
some great designers on there, but having some form of testimonials is sorely
lacking.

~~~
sgdesign
Shouldn't there be four quartiles?

And I don't agree with your view, Haystack has some outstanding designers and
agency. Only problem is it costs $99 a month to have a big listing, which is
too expensive for most freelancers.

I would also suggest asking designers at <http://themeforest.net/> if they do
freelance work. Template designers must deal with design and code as well as
customer support. So they're typically easy to work with and not overly
concerned about "art".

~~~
jlees
Yes, Haystack encompasses quartiles 2 and 3, quartile 1 being unable to afford
and quartile 4 not needing to list. Anyway, I was just summarising a view I've
heard more than once of late; not being in the market for a designer, it's not
actually my personal view. YMMV.

------
Confusion
_OpenBSD to store private data, and FreeBSD to scale; everything else is for
failures_

Considering that attitude of closeminded zealotism, _you_ are probably the
problem.

The title of this post screams 'most designers suck'. You seem like the kind
of guy that gives others the feeling that he expect them to be mindreaders and
that scorns those that don't grasp what he means fast enough. That doesn't
work with most of the lesser gods, who are nonetheless still way above
average. It makes them feel bad about themselves and about you.

I get the exact same impression as Chris_G: there is a communication problem
that _you_ can solve. According to kyro, you are wonderful to work with. Let
me say this: I've got a colleague that I love to work with. I'll be indebted
forever to him, for making me a much better software engineer than I would
ever have been without someone like him to teach me. Nevertheless, he has a
corrosive personality. It is only because I acknowledge his superiority and
have come to understand that he doesn't mean it in a bad way, that I can get
along with him. However, most people will not get to that conclusion, either
because they have less much interaction with him or because he simply isn't
superior to them _in their field_. With them, he doesn't communicate in a
constructive fashion. If you criticise something, it doesn't matter whether
you are right: it matters whether you can convince the other party; whether
you can explain that you are right, without making them feel wrong.

~~~
bjclark
In other words, if you come on HN spouting bullshit about what OS you host on
while asking for help finding a designer, you're probably doing it wrong.

~~~
rbanffy
I would not narrow it down to HN... This is not a localized problem.

------
Inkpixelspaper
Hi Nick, a programmer I work with fwd'd your post to me, so I guess I'm not a
jerk to work with. I do know what you mean. Some people just suck. I tend to
love programmers I work with. I think they're magicians, but I think I am
sometimes, too. I really enjoy the collaboration with programmers.

There are designers who focus on _design_ and don't realize that communication
skills are the most vital design skill one can possess. It's important because
if someone is agitated it is usually a result of misunderstanding, because
it's work not personal, and true understanding is the only way to produce
effective work. I find it very frustrating communicating with project managers
and I'd like to get inside their heads so I could grasp why they won't allow
things that will produce effective work. I'm sure it's something about my
communication. This is something I hope to improve on. What are they
thinking?!

I will drop you an email, even though you've found someone. You never know...
:) Jen

------
glen
I'd highly, highly, highly recommend: Kim Knight of
<http://www.kimknightstudios.com/>. She does regular work for heavies like
IBM, Chase, etc., but is affordable and incredibly professional.

------
jseifer
I can't recommend Domo highly enough: <http://www.okdomo.com/>. Great to work
with, incredible design, fairly priced, and they can work with Rails/Django
templates easy enough.

------
thesethings
There is a cool site, "CollabFinder" just for this purpose.
<http://collabfinder.com>. Like all social sites, it will get better the more
of us that use it :D

------
devi00
Zarathu I just want to let you know I agree with your post 100%. I am the
owner of a web development and internet marketing company, and I have had the
exact same experiences.

I believe it is because the great designers don't approach their work as a
job, but as art. Once that is their mindset, it is nearly impossible to offer
any criticism. By labelling themselves an 'artist', they make themselves
immune to any commentary, and in fact any criticism you offer just feeds their
deluded view of themselves as a persecuted genius.

------
josefresco
Posted 14 minutes ago, replied to 6 minutes ago and hired 4 minutes ago. No
time for contemplation?

~~~
Zarathu
It was said in jest. Price is obviously a factor.

------
sgdesign
I might as well plug my own site: <http://www.sachagreif.com/>

I've done my share of back-end and front-end developement (php, coldfusion,
and of course html, css, jquery, etc.) before focusing on design, so I
generally work well with programmers.

I consider myself fairly easy to work with, although to be fair I'm a bit of a
perfectionist and I hate being "remote-controled" by a client (like all
designers).

I've done a lot of UI work lately but I can do regular websites too.

------
danl
The best way to judge whether a designer is suited to your project is to have
a look through their portfolio. Design work can be very much in the eye of the
beholder, so you need to find someone who has a style you like.

Unfortunately, this won't tell you what they're like to work with so maybe ask
for a reference. Setting a series of project deadlines / goals upfront should
also help.

It can also be tricky to work on a brief over email if you've not met the
client in person. I find it's always a good idea to speak to any remote
clients on the telephone as that gives them the opportunity to talk you
through their ideas and brief. A proper conversation can bring up questions
and ideas that wouldn't necessarily come up in an email exchange.

In the past, I've found it hard to find good developers. If you're not a
developer, it's difficult to tell whether someone is good just by looking at
the sites they've worked on. I've come across several developers who talked a
good game but couldn't deliver before now. The agency I used to work at for
example, hired a few developers who weren't up to the job. At least with
design work, you can judge the visual aspects.

Links to my portfolio and company sites are in my profile if you're interested
in working with me.

------
ahlatimer
I work with two designers currently, both are great guys and do quality work.
The first is Brandon Silverstein, who is also a developer and owner of Impulse
Development (the company I work for). Most of the designs at
<http://impulsedevelopment.com> are his work. The other is Armando Alvarez
with Viva Creative Group (<http://vivacreativegroup.com>). Mando did the
designs that are not Brandon's work that appear on the Impulse site. Impulse
shares an office with Viva Creative Group, so I've gotten to know Mando fairly
well.

I'm not sure what Brandon charges for just designs, but basic websites
generally start at $3k. I believe Mando is typically more expensive, but he
also has more experience with branding and advertising, if that's what you
need.

------
indiaboy
She's very good and very easy to work with: <http://negarina.com/>

------
raffi
I'm a fan of <http://www.monfx.com/> \-- Monjurul did the design for
<http://www.feedbackarmy.com> and later <http://www.afterthedeadline.com>

------
dmpayton
<http://www.artificestudios.com/>

I've been friends with Antonio for years, and can attest to the quality and
professionalism he puts into his work.

------
rmdstudio
<http://www.taliacohen.com>

She is a member of our tribe and used to working with 2 uber open source
computer scientist geeks that we are at (rmdstudio.com). She is actually
dating a young oxford post doctorate mathematician.

But she doesn't work for people, she only works with them. So instead of
asking her to send in a portfolio, perhaps you could contact her and let her
know that you need some design help.

------
jim-greer
Jason Santa Maria did a great job for the inital design of Kongregate, and
Happy Cog did very nice HTML/CSS. Jason was with Happy Cog then, is solo now.
I'd recommend both of them.

<http://jasonsantamaria.com/>

<http://www.happycog.com/design/kongregate/>

------
thorax
Big fan of his work: <http://radnauseam.com/>

He put together the redesign of ErrorHelp for us (and the new Disqus and
Etherpad, too, I believe).

Also, we've been having decent luck at 99designs, where we're trying a contest
right now for TinyArrows: <http://ta.gd/99>

~~~
andrewhyde
be careful of spec work (in the end nobody wins).

------
petercooper
I want to recommend Mike Rohde. You might have seen his work with the various
"sketchnotes" posts around here. He's a great guy:
<http://www.rohdesign.com/weblog/index.html>

------
rishi
<http://www.amzeddesigns.com/>

------
guiseppecalzone
This guys an awesome designer and does far better than just not sucking :)
<http://nateuridesigns.com>

Good hunting.

------
kingkawn
more-than-us.com is great, primarily because of their devotion to detail and
satisfying the demands of the development process.

------
known
I'd recommend <http://www.pro-photography.net/>

------
kentosi
Visit a CSS showcase site such as cssremix.com and get in contact with some of
the designers from there.

------
andrewhyde
<http://anthonydimitre.com/> is my current fav.

------
undefinable
You can try <http://www.taurusarts.com/>

------
fling
It sounds like the problem you are having is a pretty classic one. There are a
lot of great designers out there, ones that we may respect and admire, but
they don't know the first thing about the business of doing design work.

When looking for a designer, pay close attention to not just their blog
design, but to the names on their portfolio. Who have they worked for and how
they solved design problems for them matters just as much as the quality of
their work.

A "good designer" should know how to work with you, to reflect your vision and
walk you through (hopefully) an iterative process of design. They should
communicate their approach pretty early on, telling you how they plan to solve
your design/user interaction problems and let you know exactly what to expect.

And for the record:

Any design project should start with Information Architecture (IA), usually
meaning sitemaps and wireframes and hopefully a prototype of some kind. You
may not think you need it, but this is a crucial first step to "design." It
allows the designer to reflect your features in a lightweight deliverable,
making sure you are both on the same page. One they can quickly iterate on to
flesh out the user interactions.

(Any client that comes to me with wireframes already done, usually costs more
not less, as we still need to go through the process in order for me to get up
to speed. If they are already done it means a lot of design decisions have
already been made without me and they will be very hard to undo for the sake
of the users best interests. A seasoned designer comes with a lot of
experience and best practices, which can help considerably on any project.)

IA should be the bulk of a design engagement and will entail a lot of back and
forth with you, and should start right after a brief getting to know the
project period, typically called "Discovery." If that doesn't happen consider
it a red flag. Scheduling can be a problem at times, but the schedule should
be understood on both ends at the beginning.

After IA comes Design, which is typically done in Photoshop, which is great
for creating designs, but major changes can eat up a lot of time (and money).
It is crucial that the layout, navigation and interactions are all agreed to
(and don't change) before design begins.

If you are skinning a web app and doing design in parallel, then you need a
good CSS designer, and Photoshop can be skipped, but that is an entirely
different type of design project. You can use a junior level resource here,
but it could take more time and iterations than a traditional design process.
For this type of project I might recommend a designer that has a good rep for
creating skins and themes.

A good designer will limit the number of "comps" or unique designs you do as
well as the "rounds of revision" per each design in the estimate and contract.
I never recommend that you ask a designer to do more than one comp, it only
multiplies that cost and the client gets little extra in the end because of
it. (It's like telling the designer that you know more about design then they
do and they often produce one good design and two shitty ones because of it.
Any client asking for multiple comps is a red flag to me that approval is
going to be a pain in the ass, and they often get charged accordingly.)
Instead look for lots of rounds of revision so you can work iteratively to get
that just right design.

That all being said, understand that design is very subjective. A good
designer knows this and has an approach to figuring out how to create the
right design for you and more importantly your users. You should get a sense
of this right away, if not, then ask them how they plan to create it. Be
honest with them about your tastes, your internal stakeholders and most
importantly listen to your designer and their experiences. And for god's sake
treat them as an equal partner and not as a slacker art school student.

The design of your product will be one of the most important decisions you
make. It will establish the first and often only impression of your product
that your end users will make. I've seen it a hundred times over a bad initial
design can be a very costly mistake, costing a lot more to undo. It
establishes trust and understanding of how your product will work. And
remember that design isn't a perfect process, but a good designer should get
you a hell of lot closer to your goal.

You'll notice that I haven't really answered your question. It sounds like you
need to think a bit more about what type of designer you need and what they
need to do for you before moving forward. Once you figure that out, getting a
designer to suit your needs becomes a lot easier.

I have a few related articles I wrote about the business of web design ages
ago, but should still be relevant, that should hopefully help understand the
business of designers a bit more:

<http://flingmedia.com/articles/pricing-a-project/>
<http://flingmedia.com/articles/the-agency-model-is-dead/>

Good luck.

-Brian

------
catweasel
Since nobody has mention it yet, one could always submit a project as a design
competition at 99designs.com. Though, at design school, we were advised never
to enter competitions as it undermines the design process and devalues the
designer ... a view I tend to agree with.

