
Canada’s $6.9B Wildfire Is the Size of Delaware and Still Out of Control - ca98am79
http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-wildfire-fort-mcmurray/?utm_source=nextdraft&utm_medium=email
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MichaelGG
And yet, Canada turned down help from Russia and the US. Then went around and
hired 300 firefighters from South Africa that have no experience with this
type of fire or equipment (they said due to lack of water, they use sticks to
beat the bush fires). I understand it's more of a social help program
("Working On Fire" job assistance), but still it seems bizarre.

Or maybe I've been reading the wrong news sources and there's more to it?
Cause it seems unreal.

Edit: Some sources: [http://globalnews.ca/news/2690570/trudeau-criticized-for-
ref...](http://globalnews.ca/news/2690570/trudeau-criticized-for-refusing-
international-help-for-fort-mcmurray-wildfire/)

[http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fort-mcmurray-fire-
so...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fort-mcmurray-fire-south-
africa-1.3605976)

~~~
redthrowaway
We turned down the help because it wouldn't have done any good. The fire was
too large for people to put out. Only rain can kill it now.

Believe me, we didn't turn down help out of pride. We have a ton of experience
dealing with these things. We know when a fire is fightable, and when it
isn't.

~~~
vehementi
I love how everyone else is just inventing shit about foreign policy. Folks
y'all can talk good about hacking but it doesn't mean your armchair intuition
is right about specialized issues in other countries

~~~
redthrowaway
At any given point in any given summer, a large chunk of the country is on
fire. That's the reality of having a massive landmass covered in boreal
forest. The consequence of that is that we have a well funded, professional
forest fire service that is among the best in the world at what they do.

If accepting American or Russian help would have helped save Canadian homes
and businesses, we would have. The South Africans are here for diplomatic
reasons more than anything, and they arrived long after the critical period
when we were trying to protect property and lives.

This isn't the California wildfires. It's not threatening populated areas
anymore. It's burning in a vast expanse of unpopulated subarctic forest. It's
fine. The damage is done; now we wait for it to burn out while keeping an eye
out for the next one.

~~~
hanniabu
"This isn't the California wildfires. It's not threatening populated areas
anymore. It's burning in a vast expanse of unpopulated subarctic forest. It's
fine. The damage is done; now we wait for it to burn out while keeping an eye
out for the next one."

I hate this notion that wildlife and nature isn't important. Apparently only
human lives and materialistic objects matter....

~~~
LionessLover
Over the decades they learned that fighting wild fires is counter-productive.
What's left is fighting only fires that endanger humans and human structures
and leave the wild ones alone. It's the product of many decades of experience!
Which is missing in your statement (the experience), that tries to make this
into some weird metaphysical issue.

Just an example: [http://www.washington.edu/news/2015/09/17/scientists-let-
wil...](http://www.washington.edu/news/2015/09/17/scientists-let-wildfires-
burn-when-prudent/)

Did you know that the earth has a history of 400 million years without humans
fighting wildfires? (No big plants before the Devonian period.)

------
mig39
I returned to Fort McMurray yesterday, after being evacuated a month ago. It
was raining. Today the fire is a bit better because of the rain.

I'm one of the lucky ones. My house is still standing, and there's no damage.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I cannot imagine how that feels to come back to your house intact. I've
wondered ever since an acquaintance of mine, who had a house in the Oakland
hills during its fire [1], talked about it. She had come back to her house and
it was still standing, and then went on to relate how, for her, it was a mixed
blessing.

The house was there, and the stuff was there, but everything smelled of smoke
(and would for years afterward). Some of her neighbors lost their homes, and a
combination of the rebuilding challenges (dealing with insurance, contractors,
budgets etc) resulted them in selling their houses and moving away. Some of
her neighbors were living in 20 year old houses instead of over 50 year old
houses (this was back in 2011). Her neighbors had much better wiring, stronger
foundations, and built in home fire sprinkler systems. Things which improved
their homes in a number of small but important ways.

She said it was the most surreal thing in her life in terms of how she
"should" feel, how she "did" feel, and how she thought about and remembered
the fire. In 2006 she had upgraded the insulation in the attic to make the
house more energy efficient and removing all of the old insulation released a
lot of smokey smells again which brought a lot of the scene, the craziness,
back.

I've thought about that a lot since I talked with her. All through my life my
parents and the government has spent time and money telling me to "prepare"
for disaster and no money at all telling me how to live "after" disaster.

Something that helped her was that she began writing a journal in the days and
weeks and months that followed the fire.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_firestorm_of_1991](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_firestorm_of_1991)

~~~
derefr
> Some of her neighbors lost their homes, and a combination of the rebuilding
> challenges ... resulted them in selling their houses and moving away.

If this occurred in an urban/suburban environment, it would instantly cause
the sort of "shrinking city" problem affecting places like Detroit—suddenly,
your house might be the only house on its block, so the viability of
delivering power, water, or mail to your lone house (or even keeping the roads
maintained around you) would have to be reconsidered as a matter of urban
planning. Your house might still be there, but if the city decides to redraw
the city limits to exclude it, you may as well give it up as lost anyway—it
doesn't have market value any more.

On the other hand, if this was a farm—probably then on _unincorporated_ land—a
very different set of considerations would be in play, since you (or a co-op
you're a part of) would likely own an independent _contract_ for the
installation and maintenance of the entire run from the utility to you. On one
hand, it would probably end up your responsibility to pay for any repairs to
power poles/water mains/etc.—which might be a lot. On the other hand, knowing
that, you'd probably have insurance for those "backhauls" for just such
occasions. (A lot of farming is risk management of often-volatile commodities.
There's a reason the CFTC—the US futures-market regulator—is under the
Department of Agriculture.)

~~~
Retric
The math on this seems wonky as some areas are very low density and still have
electric water and sewer. I suspect detroit has problems from poverty and poor
management not density.

PS: <rant> Underfunded pensions are a huge issue that's often ignored until
way to late. People need to sound the alarm at year one when the pension is
not at 110% not year 30 when it's way to late. IMO, a company should not be
able to have a dividend or stock buy back if their not over 100%. </rant>

------
wrong_variable
Canada seems to be in so much trouble - I am wondering how things are there.

# Massive flooring of the Canadian dollar.

# Continued job losses months on end - Unemployment rate of 7.1% !

# Most expensive Natural Disaster in Canadian history.

At least they got their Obama.

~~~
fudged71
On the bright side, it is opening up some long-overdue political dialogue. For
example diversification of the Alberta economy away from natural resources.

Calgary's downtown office towers have reached record high vacancy rates, with
so many engineers laid off. I'm hoping this is an opportunity for tech
companies to take notice and move in.

~~~
burnguy123
I am not sure this is going to happen. Calgary is a very conservative city,
very little public transportation, a terrible cab system (and a city council
who opposes alternatives), terrible road network (especially crowchild) no
nightlife and very conservative drug and alcohol laws.

Software engineerings in Calgary are lucky to make 70k canadian (54k usd), so
the good ones just move the the USA or work remotely. I don't see Calgary
becoming a booming tech scene anytime soon.

~~~
schwap
> Calgary is a very conservative city

Economically? Sure. Socially? no way.

~~~
na85
>Sure. Socially? no way.

Compared to what?

Calgary is more conservative than Edmonton, Toronto, Montreal, Quebec,
Vancouver, and Victoria.

Perhaps it's more liberal than Red Deer or Kelowna, but that's not saying much
at all.

It's also just an awful place to live. The urban sprawl makes public transit
pale in comparison even to Vancouver which also has really bad transit. It's
an 80 dollar cab ride to the airport which is like an hour and a half from the
downtown.

There's the Stampede, I guess, but frankly I've never found the culture in
Calgary much to write home about either.

If you like pickup trucks and imported American culture, then sure, Calgary
sounds great.

~~~
beloch
Calgary is demographically young and cosmopolitan. The average Calgarian came
from somewhere else in Canada. Their political views reflect this. When Nenshi
was elected, Toronto's media had a massive freak-out over the fact that he's a
Muslim. This did not happen in Calgary because Calgarians didn't view his
choice of religion as being pertinent to his job. Meanwhile, the enlightened,
progressive people of Toronto elected Rob Ford.

Calgary's CTrain has the third highest annual ridership among North America's
light rail systems [1]. The bus system is lagging behind, but the LRT system
is being expanded. The airport is a 22 min drive from downtown under normal
circumstances. There is traffic congestion during peak travel times, but
absolutely _nothing_ like in Toronto or Vancouver.

If all you know about Calgary's cultural scene is the Stampede, one has to
wonder if you've even _been_ to Calgary.

In short, thanks for slagging a city you clearly know nothing about.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_light_r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_light_rail_systems_by_ridership)

~~~
na85
>Meanwhile, the enlightened, progressive people of Toronto elected Rob Ford.

I'm not from Toronto but the fact is that the barely-literate, anti-
intellectual, suburban outlying population of places like (edit) Etobicoke
elected Rob Ford.

edit: ah yes, the old reddit-style downvote because the truth hurts. The
simple fact is the man was a train wreck, and his supporters are basically Tea
Party North.

~~~
hunterjrj
Ok, I'll bite: You realize that Markham is a separate municipality and it's
residents aren't eligible to vote in Toronto municipal elections?

~~~
na85
As I said, I don't live there. So no, I didn't know that. But I do know that
the bulk of Rob Ford's support is/was mostly in the outlying suburbs of
Toronto, and not "old toronto". Substitute Markham for someplace like
Etobicoke and I think the point still stands.

------
yeowMeng
Interesting fact: Aboriginal people living in North America before first
contact with Europeans used to perform periodic controlled blazes on the land.
Motivations including making the land easier for hunting and preventing
uncontrollable fires from gaining strength.

Now, the land grows thick until fire comes to clean according to natures' idea
of natural process.

I tree planted in BC/Alberta, the land grows so thick that they often have to
fly you in helicopter to re-plant land that previous tree planters failed to
plant correctly.

~~~
snowwindwaves
It only grows that thick after it has been clear cut. Old growth forests have
a high canopy that starves thick underbrush for light. Humans clear cutting
are part of the problem. When there is a forest fire in old growth the brush
might burn but the big old trees will survive several fires.

~~~
sandworm101
The north is different. The trees are not the giant cedars of the pacific
coastal rain forest. There often isn't anything to call a canopy.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boreal_forest_of_Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boreal_forest_of_Canada)

~~~
noarchy
Canadian here. I'm often amazed at how tall the trees are, when I've visited
the southern US. I'm not even that far north (I'm near Ottawa), but the
differences are still quite obvious to me.

~~~
snowwindwaves
the ottawa valley has been completely logged as well. 100ft tall white pines
used to cover the area

------
lazyant
Suddenly almost everyone in HN knows more about extinguishing wildfires than
the Canadian firefighters, who pretty much invented the category. Just three
words: zero lives lost.

------
sandworm101
Six billion yes, but this is Fort Mac, not New Orleans. It is a working town.
Insurance will pay out, the government will help here and there, but the town
will recover largely on its own. Or, should the economic realities of lower
oil prices dictate, the town will never come back to what it once was. Either
way, the fire is not the deciding factor.

------
bane
In some sense, probably not out of control, but a huge debt to what nature
does by itself.

[http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/BOREASFire/](http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/BOREASFire/)

------
philjackson
Another wild over-valuation on Hacker News.

~~~
catmanjan
What we need is an app to warn people of nearby fires... Tinder?

------
spoofball
and people think technology will solve global warming, but floods, fires and
tornados still unmatched by human ingenuity.

2060 - year when rainforests disappear

2049 - year when oceans get empty

tech, solve that!

------
nuand
$6.9 billion? sounds like this fire is razing quite well

------
hackney
I find it kinda sad we can rocket around the universe but we can't put out a
fire in our backyard. Airports should be built and staffed like fire
departments for our wilderness. Wouldn't take a lot of staff except for the
pilots of course. I think the money spent, taken from the military budget,
would work perfectly.

