
Ask HN: What is the point of asking for references while making an job offer? - throwaway1xx2
Is interview process not enough? Also, I will only give references from people who will give me a good reference. What is the point?
======
gyardley
It's actually surprisingly easy to get a 'good' reference to give honest
feedback about your shortcomings as well as your strengths. This has worked
about 90% of the time for me:

 _Me: So, how would you rate this candidate on a scale of 1-10?_

 _Reference: Oh, around a 9._

 _Me: A 9? That 's great! Tell me, why not a 10?_

 _Reference: [... here 's what you actually listen to here ...]_

Sometimes it goes this way:

 _Me: So, how would you rate this candidate on a scale of 1-10?_

 _Reference: Absolutely a 10, no doubt about it._

 _Me: Outstanding! But seriously, there 's got to be something he's not
perfect at..._

 _Reference: [... again, the truth generally emerges here ...]_

Once people have given you what they feel is a _good_ reference, like a high
score out of 10, they're generally fine with talking frankly.

In addition, if the role's really important, you don't stop with just the
references they gave you - you note them and then you continue digging,
especially if there's people they really _should_ have given as a reference
but didn't.

------
trcollinson
It's actually relatively funny but, half a dozen times at least, I have been
asked to be a reference for an individual who I have flat out told I would not
be a good reference for. They put me down anyway and I answer the interviewers
questions honestly and respectfully. I do believe in every case the person was
not given the job after the interviewer spoke with me. I have also called
other peoples references and had them not go well. So I guess, on occasion,
references are not cherry picked to be perfect.

Funny side note, one individual has used me many times over many years as a
reference and has received the same feedback each time. I have even told him
in person and in writing not to use me as a reference. Some people just don't
learn.

------
smacktoward
_> Is interview process not enough?_

Some people are frighteningly good at bluffing their way through things like
interviews, through techniques like reading body language cues from the
interviewer and telling them what those cues reveal they want to hear. (Jon
Ronson's excellent book _The Psychopath Test_
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psychopath_Test](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psychopath_Test))
profiles several people who mastered this kind of thing.) So it's useful to
have ways to validate a candidate's _bona fides_ that are external to the
interview.

 _> I will only give references from people who will give me a good reference.
What is the point?_

Just the fact that you can rustle up two or three people who are willing to
say nice things about you tells the employer something positive, namely that
you have not spent your career burning every bridge after you crossed it. If
you can't even get over that low hurdle, it provides cause to wonder if
working with you is more trouble than it's worth, regardless of how sparkling
your technical credentials are.

------
hnnewguy
I suppose it's just _that_ much more validation, one last-ditch-effort to
reveal flaws behind the facade.

But you're right; who would offer up anything but a stellar reference?

~~~
x0x0
You'd be surprised.

I worked at a shit company as their first data scientist. They later hired a
boss for me whose references said he was very difficult to work with. It turns
out that when even your references say you are very difficult to work with,
you are, indeed, an asshole.

I left on bad terms after having a horrid relationship with the asshole and
blaming the director of engineering for hiring him even after the warnings
from references.

------
amenghra
In some countries/cultures, letters of reference are handed out in a sealed
envelope.

The interview process involves taking lots of weak signals (you can't tell
much about a person by talking to them for ~30 minutes) and trying to take a
hire/no hire decision. Every little thing contributes to this decision. When
people give more importance to incorrect signals, you end up with a bias
(which can end up reducing diversity in the work place).

------
JSeymourATL
> What is the point?

Social proof, peers and superiors who can vouch if you're the real deal. Also,
it provides additional insight into your skills-- how you think and act.

Question: If we were going to create an executive development path for this
individual. What areas could they work on? What strengths could be bolstered?

------
Errorcod3
The purpose of providing references is to close the deal. It isn’t to find out
if you are telling the truth about your dates of employment, verify if you
have the proper skills or even assure the hiring authority he’s making the
right decision to hire you -- though each reason contributes.

If a company is having difficulty deciding which of two individuals to make an
offer to, references are usually the deciding factor. If more job seekers
understood this, they wouldn’t view the phrase “references provided upon
request” so casually.

[http://www.jobdig.com/articles/843/The_Real_Purpose_of_Refer...](http://www.jobdig.com/articles/843/The_Real_Purpose_of_References.html)

~~~
x0x0
Also, hopefully, to make sure you aren't a horror show to work with.

------
chrisBob
References are also very cultural, so you should be careful. Chinese
references tend to be of very little value. They are full of useless praise
along the lines of "He comes from an excellent family".

My wife's current boss (Professor) has an interesting technique. If he has a
good postdoc, and wants them to get a faculty job, he writes a reference
letter and starts it with something along the lines of "You should not hire
this person, and here is why: ". If nothing else it makes sure someone reads
the letter, and he has a very high rate of success this way. Roughly 75% of
his postdocs get hired for faculty positions in a field where less than 15% of
postdocs go on to get academic jobs.

------
gesman
Same reason why you'd ask your new babysitter to provide references.

These of course could be fabricated but gives you an extra peace of mind.

And then of course you may actually call and speak to these people.

~~~
sjg007
What is interesting is that most high end babysitters and nannies go through
agencies as well as references.

