

How do startups find good and cheap programmers in the Valley? - puente

I will hopefully move to the valley soon to found a startup with my bro! The thing is that we are aiming at something big and will need a lot of programmers!<p>At this early stage, programmers are everything! So how do I found them at the valley? Any suggestions? Are there websites?<p>By the way, can you hire them for a couple months? How much could that be? I heard that salaries in the valley are crazy, so how can I handle that!! I mean we could hire programmers that work from home in Berlin or Madrid for this early age where we won't have much money, but what would be the advantage of moving to the valley?<p>How do startup deal with this paradox?<p>Thanks in advanced!<p>PS: Any suggestions and link are very welcome<p>At this early stage, programmers are everything! So how do I found them at the valley? Any suggestion? Are there websites?<p>By the way, can you hire them for a couple months? How much would the damage be? I heard that salaries are crazy in the valley, so would it be a good idea to hire programmers in Berlin or Madrid for this early age where we won't have much time?<p>Thanks in advanced!
======
us
You and several thousand of other people here (and everywhere else for that
matter) are exactly the same. The talent you seek are often not cheap. If
you're expecting to get people to build your company for you without much
value proposition, you might as well forget it. If you're hoping to sell them
on equity (founder or employee), they must believe in your company and vision.

I assume from your post that you and your brother are cofounders and neither
can code? If this is the case, your setup already hardly make any sense. Smart
coders will know better. Chances are you hardly know much about the business
side of things much less convince coders to build your dream, one that I'm
sure hasn't been "truly" validated.

Of course I am assuming and I could be wrong and you did validate your idea
correctly and have much more going, but I seriously doubt it (and I'm trying
to say that nicely here).

You should in all sense, validate the idea with REAL potential users, not your
friends. If that pans out and you have limited funds, outsource a prototype
first. THEN and only then, should you consider moving to the valley after
you've got some minor traction and a working demo. The valley is not cheap and
unless you live somewhere like Manhattan, you're not helping your financial
situation much more. You're making it worse.

Networking is important but working smart is also important. You can make
online connections before coming here. You have your odds stacked against you
if you don't have local coders for raising (whether you hire before or after).
Majority of all investors won't invest unless you have in-house coders so the
long term strategy of hiring overseas hopefully isn't something you were
planning and is only in consideration for your prototype/demo.

Salaries here are crazy but that's how it goes. At this point in your startup,
I would seriously consider finding a cofounder and define very specific roles
between you and your brother. And hopefully you're bringing enough knowledge
on the business side as you're expecting your coder to bring to the table on
the technical side. After all, you don't want to bring on someone who can't
code at all and expect them to learn, no one wants to team up with an
inexperience business cofounder only to have them learn and certainly not TWO
of them. Something to consider.

Ideas are great but alone they're not worth much. You need to make it
worthwhile for whoever you're working with as well. If you can get a prototype
and demo up, pitching to coders AFTERWARDS make things a bit easier. Something
to consider.

Best of luck

~~~
puente
Well maybe the message went out wrong.

1\. We are both programmers, but we will need more people... 2\. The thing is
that if we get a beginning investment of 10K we dont want to blow it off
inmediately on one single guy...What I was asking is how to invest it the
better way possible? (that is what I meant with cheap)

~~~
us
If you're both coders, stay true to what you're suppose to be doing. Bootstrap
your prototype yourselves and make it a true MINIMUM viable product. You don't
need a 3rd developer as much as you want one, or a 4th or 5th right now. One
you get some tractions, there will be more doors open to you.

However, as someone else noted, if you're looking for cheap help, you're
probably in the wrong place. While there are many talented people who may
consider working for cheap or pure equity, it's something that naturally
happens if they believe in you, your brother, your company, your vision,
etc... It's not something you should go out of your way to try to convince
people. Hard sales rarely work.

------
omitevski
Anyone who's basing their business model on cheap programmers is doomed to
fail. The reason is that he/she does not understand the inherent nature of
programmers. The quality therefore productiveness of programmers follows the
power law distribution, meaning that a single good programmer can not be
matched by 100 average coders. So if not possible to pay him a stellar salary,
try with equity options. However your idea must be worth something, and the
cofounders need to be worth something, which I seriously doubt.

------
lsc
If you move here, your options are

1\. start lean:

Only hire founders who will work for nothing. You can also hire new people and
train, but that's /very slow/ and not really recommended if you are a
"startup" rather than a lifestyle business.

or

2\. get funded. take the money (and the publicity. 1% of a funded company is
going to be perceived as more valuable by most people than 50% of the same
company before it's funded) and hire good people.

For both 1 and 2, the valley is great. It's a great place to meet people who
have the technical skills (and the financial acumen) to become a co-founder.
It's also a great place to find people who might fund you, and it's a
wonderful place to find people you'd want to hire if you had a lot of money.

The thing of it is, people get paid more around here, but standards are
higher, too. A mediocre SysAdmin in silicon valley, if you move him to, say,
the Sacramento area, will be like a minor god.

This isn't to say that you can't find good people outside of silicon valley,
but the average here is higher. I'd say high enough higher to justify our
inflated wages. If you are paying market rate for market skill, even though
you are paying more here, I'd say you are at least getting as much skill per
dollar as you would elsewhere, and maybe more.

Hang out at the hacker dojo, go to various meetups, meet people. It's pretty
great. Personally, I think it's worth the extra cost just for the social life.
I feels pretty great to be surrounded by all these smart people who are
interested in the same sorts of things you are interested in.

But really, if you want to hire people on the cheap, this is not the place to
do it. You would be better off almost anywhere else in the world. Hiring
foreigners (or Midwesterners) and having them work remote is one way to do it.
Moving to Texas is another popular option.

------
puente
Well maybe the message went out wrong.

This is not what I was asking for! Infact, we are both programmers. So I
wasn't trying to offense anybody!

The thing is that if we get an early investment of 10K (we also want to ask
for the less possible that we could need) we dont want to blow it off
inmediately on one single guy...

What I was asking is how to invest it the better way possible to finish a
prototype? (that is what I meant with cheap)

What I was looking for are things like: 1\. Hire a prgrammer for a month for
around 5K to help you with the core. You can find them in ... 2\. At the same
time hire 2 trainees for 2K each and... etc

Can someone give me an advice on that?

~~~
djb_hackernews
5k? 2K? You aren't going to find developers to work for that money for such a
short timespan.

If you are two software developers, time to buckle down and build an MVP.
Being 2 developers you are in a great position to do this. Once you have that,
and still no money, you'll only have equity, so find a co-founder who believes
in your product and give him equity. Build out the product, get traction and
then go looking for capital, any financing round at this point should give you
enough cash to make solid hires. Then it's time to really get to work.

------
makecheck
Programmers aren't just cogs in a system, and this is a mistake that many
managers make. (And this is insulting to potential hires, by the way.) If you
only know that you need "a lot" of them, you need to clarify the nature of the
work. For example...is it a web site, will there be databases involved, is
this software to power some kind of machine, will it use a network, will it
require a GUI, will it run on Mac or Windows or Linux, are there restrictions
on what it must interact with, is it safe to open-source the project and use
GPL'd libraries, etc.? These details will also help you to write job postings.

In general, you get what you pay for, only less. Code has to be maintained,
and even if something is thrown together in "a couple months", you may regret
that for anything except a prototype.

A single excellent programmer may very well handle your entire project, and
ten horrible programmers may never get it done. If you're not experienced
dealing with programmers, then set up some kind of deal where you pay only
when it's _finished_ and you see regular progress from the people you hire. Be
prepared to set aside plenty of time to test what is given to you, and do
_both_ expected and unexpected things with it. You need to be in a position to
reject their work if they say it's "done" and you can still see quirks and
instability (because some programmers can be lazy or clueless).

The cost of living in the valley is very high, so anyone living there will
need more money for that reason alone. It wouldn't surprise me if you paid
nearly 50% extra. This _might_ be worth it, especially if it means finding
someone right away instead of 6 months from now, but keep it in mind.

------
nyellin
1\. As I see it, the main advantage of being in a high-tech area is networking
opportunities. There are also more _good_ programmers and cofounders
available, but the former is expensive.

2\. Many startups don't need that many programmers early on. I prototyped my
latest project by myself in under two weeks.

------
SamReidHughes
Find some high-school graduate, not-yet-going-to-college supergenius coder-
deities. The thing is, I don't think they're actually cheap.

Another possibility is to drive a nondescript van down Castro Street on a
weekday around lunch, pick out a scrappily dressed young male, and kidnap him.
Make sure you're driving facing west (or is it north? I mean south) so that
you don't get trapped by the railroad. You'll need guns, I hear you can get
them in Reno.

------
hasenj
For starters, don't use the word "cheap".

If you can't afford to pay now, offer them shares/equity/whatever-it's-called.

------
hajrice
Hmm....try checking out universities in the area ?

