

Linus is wrong about being a jerk - bqe
http://blog.existentialize.com/on-being-nice.html

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christianbryant
I wholly agree. Having worked for a Linus-type, I've seen both sides of the
coin. Yes, you need tangible requirements, project goals, assigned
responsibility and real consequence for harmful actions in a large-scale
project, but you don't need to be a dick about it. Of course, if that's your
nature, then that's who you are. But people who aren't dicks don't need to be
to get the same results. Much love to Linus, but for me, FLOSS isn't about
that. It's about providing a positive service to humanity that allows freedom,
education, communication and a whole host of socially beneficial functions to
the world. How is being a dick conducive to that beautiful product of our
FLOSS efforts? Cheers :)

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perlpimp
Hold on a second: ... "how Greg KH should be tougher on people who contribute
patches to -stable" ...

I don't know about you but bar for patches going into stable is that much
higher. If people futzing about making crap code they can use it on their own
servers, but when patching stable - they should fall in line or submit their
code to development branches.

Adding code to the kernel might be fine if you futzing about with your own
server, but I sure as hell don't want Linus & Co. letting their guard down
because they might hurt someone's feelings.

I've worked with kind of Linus and I have learned from them far more than from
most of considerate and gentle minded people(there are exceptions though).

~~~
sdse903
"Now, I understand that Ingo Molnar and Linus Torvalds have a lot more
experience in open source development than I do, but we can learn about this
from scientific studies and statistics, rather than depending on unreliable
personal experience."

So we should rely on your personal experiences instead of scientific studies?

~~~
EliRivers
Well that appears to be the exact opposite of what he said. "How odd," I
thought. "I know; I'll read the blog post, and if there are _no_ links to
scientific studies, it's clear that sdse903 is making a valid point. If there
_are_ links to scientific studies, I'll know that sdse903 is either
fantastically stupid, or some kind of dickhead."

I won't ruin the surprise for everyone.

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apalmer
People really get their pants in a bunch about Linus' abrasive personality. I
wouldnt want to work for him, but on an open source project that he has lead
for over a decade I think its a pretty clear cut case of 'vote with your
feet'.

Somehow with this management style he has managed to produce the largest open
source OS project in the wild... I agree with everyone doesnt need to be a
dick just because linus is but we definitely cant claim this kind of approach
cant work

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pupppet
Linus supporters' arguments are always I'd rather have it like this than the
opposite side of the coin. The idea that there is a decent alternative that is
not the 180° of Linus confounds you.

~~~
coldtea
No, the idea that there is no way you're getting that alternative with Linus
and Linux confounds the detractors...

~~~
foobarbazqux
What's so bad about that alternative again?

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tbranyen
Personally, I have more respect for BDFL's who can represent their community
positively. Linus doesn't seem to care, so it's not like my opinion will
change anything, and it shouldn't... Nobody should tell him what to do. He's
an adult and should find a happy medium on his own that doesn't alienate his
invested developers.

Brendan Eich (JavaScript author), on the other hand, really disappointed me
once on HackerNews and I called him out on it here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3097137](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3097137)

I appreciated his response and wish more leaders acted humbly like this. Just
my thoughts.

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fredsanford
Just like trying to fix code...

I'd rather see an explosion when I'm wrong and nothing when I'm right rather
than the opposite.

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crashoverdrive
In my opinion it comes down to this, Do you want to play the game, or do you
want to change the game.

If you want to play the game, Sure, be a jerk, be the biggest sociopathic jerk
you can be, stamp your feet when your timelines get pushed back, force your
subordinates to work extra hours, yell at anyone who breaks the build. It's
the way the game has always been played.

Or you could change the game. Be the humble, helpful leader, be steadfast and
nurturing, look at your employees as investments, because thats what they
truly are, you are investing your product, your time, even your value into
them, so they better damn well be worth your emotional efforts. Be the leaders
that you see that are Charismatic and optimistic. But don't expect it to be
easy.

For some of us, being the jerk is harder.

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zalew
you don't want to use Linux in a world where the BDFL is afraid of hurting
feelings of patch submitters.

~~~
jasonlotito
I don't know. By swearing, it tells me that he spends more time caring about
their feelings. If he could just say "No" instead of "Fuck no! I'm not accept
that shit!" he'd save a lot of time and energy dealing with people's feelings.

~~~
coldtea
> _If he could just say "No" instead of "Fuck no! I'm not accept that shit!"
> he'd save a lot of time and energy dealing with people's feelings._

If he said "no" instead of "fuck no!" he wouldn't have gotten the message of
how fucked up the code is across.

~~~
EliRivers
I review code frequently. When some of the code is bad, I manage to impress
upon the writer that it's not up to scratch and why, and they produce better
code to replace it and continue to produce better code in the future.
Sometimes it's really fucked up code. Really bad.

Yet, incredibly, I don't have to use the word "fuck" at all. Amazing, I know.
It's as if it's possible for someone to listen to criticism and improve their
work without having to be screamed at. I have funny memories in which this
happened to me as well; I wrote bad code, and then someone explained to me
what was wrong with it, and then I wrote better code. Again, nobody said
"fuck". Truly amazing.

~~~
coldtea
> _Yet, incredibly, I don 't have to use the word "fuck" at all. Amazing, I
> know. It's as if it's possible for someone to listen to criticism and
> improve their work without having to be screamed at._

For some yes. Doesn't work with all.

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AnthonBerg
FWIW I have absolutely NO interest in contributing to any project Linus is
managing - I will not do it. The only reason is his behavior which is
unnecessary and of little honor.

~~~
coldtea
FWIW? Well, it's not worth much. People with huge skills HAVE participated in
projects Linus is managing with no problem.

I for one, would not participate in a project with a pushover leader, or a
comitee style leadership with passive-agressive politeness.

~~~
AnthonBerg
You're missing the point: I'm not the only one. It is obvious that people who
don't mind his management style will work together with him.

To put it another way: There's absolutely NO chance that I would work for a
boss with Linus' poor manners and rudeness for money. No way in hell would I
do it for free. I don't think I'm the only one who feels it would go against
myself-respect to work together with a boor of Linus' caliber.

The dissemination of information is a completely different thing from the
respect and honor you show the person you're talking to, which is again
completely different from your selection of strategy.

For instance, it is possible to be steadfast without lowering yourself and the
communication to the level that Linus will do.

(And in stating 'FWIW', I know what it's worth. No need to be rude, is there?
In fact, there's no need to be anything but polite. In my opinion. For what
that's worth.)

~~~
WayneDB
> No way in hell would I do it for free.

Now you're starting to sound like Linus :)

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memracom
I like the photo of Linus looking like a minister of religion in that suit and
those glasses.

But I tend to worship at the church of statistics so right now I believe that
it is all about regression to the mean until someone comes up with some hard
data to show otherwise. In fact, there may be no causal relationship at all!

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coldtea
> _I disagree that being a jerk is required. In fact, I believe it to be
> harmful._

And your credentials are?

Because we know what Linus achieved (or in business, Jobs, another "jerk").

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aimatt
Gee, no comments allowed on that page. Scared of getting lamb-basted.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

