

Cursive handwriting considered harmful; bring back italic - sethg
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/09/04/opinion/20090908_opart.html

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mcav
I was quite awful at cursive handwriting in school, and as soon as it wasn't
required, I switched back to block lettering... something similar to this
article (in-air joins) when I need to write faster.

Cursive has always struck me as being illegible and archaic. If we're going to
appreciate hand-written text, I'd much rather advocate calligraphy and/or
explorations of old-style fountain pen writing. What I was taught as a kid
("new"-style cursive text) just seems like an unnecessary distraction.

Granted, I'd much rather type. Handwriting really tires out my wrist.

~~~
tungstenfurnace
Good for you! I also prefer typing. As far as handwriting goes, I've
unconsciously developed a semi-joined up style rather like that mentioned in
the article. No lessons required.

Even though I couldn't be bothered with it, I had always assumed that cursive
handwriting must have some advantage. But it has none. It is both slower to
write and difficult to read.

Generations of children have been hobbled by a prissy, static tradition,
inherited from brass engraving.

~~~
ionfish
It does have advantages, just not for users. The advantage is providing a way
to control pupils: a student's work will not be accepted unless it is written
in the correct way.

The implicit message is clear: you must conform to our pointless strictures,
or you will not be accepted (human beings experience the rejection of their
work as a rejection of their selves, even when this is irrational). The
pointlessness of "joined-up" handwriting (as it is referred to in the UK) is
part of its utility to the system, as it demonstrates that conformity is the
ultimate requirement, not practicality.

~~~
lucumo
Oh, come on. Not _everything_ done on schools is a conspiracy to keep pupils
in check.

Teaching the students to respect their teachers is useful and without doubt
it's taught in schools. It helps students to absorb the knowledge from their
teachers without the teacher having to prove every detail, which in turn helps
more to be taught. (Some things really don't need a proof until you're working
in much more detail. Most people don't need to know why 2 + 2 = 4, they just
need to know that it's true.)

Really, if indoctrinating them would be the point of cursive writing there'd
be much more effective ways to do it.

~~~
philwelch
"Most people don't need to know why 2 + 2 = 4, they just need to know that
it's true."

While most people don't need a rigorous proof that would take Russell and
Whitehead hundreds of dense pages to reach that point, even a small child has
to have enough of an intuitive understanding of how addition works for 2 + 2 =
4 to be meaningful to them. That's why we do exercises with pennies and talk
about "if you have 2 cookies and I give you two more cookies" to drive the
point home.

"Really, if indoctrinating them would be the point of cursive writing there'd
be much more effective ways to do it."

You argue as if cursive writing is the sole means by which schools teach
children to accept arbitrary, irrational authority. I don't think it's a
"conspiracy" per se, just part of how the system works: when the system is
characterized by regimentation and submission to arbitrary authority, it's a
lot easier for useless things like cursive to be taught.

------
hudibras
I can't recommend this enough. About three years ago, I bought Dubay and
Getty's book to improve my handwriting--and it worked, with just a few hours
of drills over a couple weeks.

Some notes:

1\. It's subtle, but some of the printed letters are formed differently than
most Americans were taught in school. Look how the letters t, q, x, e, and E
are made. The italic form of the letters looks better and feels more natural
to write. (The italic number 5 was especially weird to me, but now it's
impossible for me to write it the "old way.")

2\. The article talks about this, but it bears repeating: the letters are
formed the same whether you are printing or writing cursive. So italic can
help you even if you insist on printing your letters only.

2a. But you'll almost naturally start joining some letters because it's
faster, and joining other letters because it looks cool, such as any letter
after an f or t.

~~~
synnik
That is exactly why I have to take this article with a grain of salt. They may
have valid points, but they also wrote a book, and this article promotes their
book.

I grow weary of anything on the web with an undertone of "Buy my Book! Buy my
book!"

~~~
akd
What's wrong with that? Read the material critically. Scratch out a few
letters on a piece of paper. If it makes sense and you want to go further, buy
the book.

As far as advertising goes, this is pretty useful -- it gives me some value
even if I don't buy the book, and directs me to a resource that I might be
genuinely interested in.

------
mmt
The one biggest take-away, which I wish had a reference, though it's self-
supporting by example, is that we recognize letters by their tops, not their
bottoms.

~~~
ars
That's because the bottoms all look the same, and not because of something
intrinsic in looking at the top vs the bottom of line of words.

------
fhars
If you want something that is still joined but without all those funny loops,
you might also find the simplified cursives used in german elementary schools
interesting:

<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vereinfachte_Ausgangsschrift> (yes, the
lowercase e if funny, our kid's school uses this script with a more classical
e like in the following link:)
<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulausgangsschrift>

------
modeless
"And now pick up a pencil or a pen (if you're really courageous) and practice
on this very page."

3 things: 1. How quaint! 2. Did anyone else notice that the entire article was
a giant .jpg? 3. Good on them for not being afraid to start a sentence with
"And".

------
brandnewly
Related:

Mourning the Death of Handwriting (time.com)

[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1912419-1,0...](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1912419-1,00.html)

------
crux
I don't use anything resembling the italic style of handwriting, but I do
applaud any attention that the issue manages to receive. When this
conversation comes up, you hear a lot of people say 'Who uses pen and paper
anymore? I only type these days.' But then, the moleskine is an icon for nerds
and geeks everywhere, so there's another data point for you.

As for me, I write quite a lot of things down. I don't use italic or block
printing; I actually over the last several years started with designing a
single uniform style of alphabet to use, then moving on a series of word and
letter-sequence abbreviations, glyphs, and the like, in inspiration from the
writing systems of the Middle Ages and Renaissance.

I guess my point is: given the set of aesthetic values that so many hackers
and geeks share, and the sheer amount of time that they spend dealing with
letters of all kinds, I am surprised that more of them seem to have absolutely
no investment whatsoever in their personal manual expression of written
language.

------
cracki
...and we lefties are still screwed...

~~~
sehender
Most people don't fully understand how difficult it is to write with your left
hand, especially in school.

The first and most obvious problem is created by right-handed desks, forcing
us lefties to reach across our bodies to write with no support for our arm.
Now, granted, there are usually one or two desks in a classroom for left-
handers, but with 8-10% of the population being lefties, that leaves a
shortage of left-handed desks in every classroom in America.

The fact that the English language is written from left to right creates an
even bigger disadvantage for left-handers though, because it forces us to push
the pen across the page. This is in stark contrast to all those righties who
get to effortlessly drag the pen across the page while resting their arm on
that comfortable right-hander desk of yours.

Fortunately for us lefties though, we're inherently smarter than our right
handed counterparts:

[http://isittrue.msn.com/slideshow.aspx?cp-
documentid=1319838...](http://isittrue.msn.com/slideshow.aspx?cp-
documentid=13198387&imageindex=1&c)

Who's to argue with Einstein, Newton, Franklin and Picasso? :)

~~~
petercooper
_The first and most obvious problem is created by right-handed desks_

I had a good laugh at your post thinking it was rather clever humor and was
about to write something witty back about left handed shot glasses, nunchucks,
and corkscrews, but then I Googled "left handed desk" just in case and.. crap,
you're not kidding! What horrible bloody desks kids are subjected to in your
country!

~~~
chancho
He was being dramatic when he said "every classroom in America." I never saw
any serious deployment of asymmetric desks before college. Rather just a
handful of them mixed in with a Frankenstein-like assortment of worn-out
furniture spanning the 20th century. They were to be avoided.

------
axod
How many people here actually use a pen and paper every day?

I probably use a pen once or twice a month :/

~~~
Locke
I often "think" on paper. So, I use a pen and paper almost every day.

This isn't writing intended for consumption. I'm the only person who ever
looks at my own notes, and even then I only ever look back a page or two.
Because I'm thinking through a problem or design, older notes are usually less
valuable -- either I've changed my mind on the topic (arrived at a better
solution), or I've implemented the solution and moved on to something else.

My notes include a lot of lists, diagrams, symbols, follow-up thoughts in the
margins, etc. I think writing the equivalent notes on computer wouldn't feel
as natural.

I don't write very quickly. I only need to keep up with my thoughts, so that's
not a problem (I'm not sure I didn't insult myself just now).

Anyway, my handwriting is probably fairly legible -- a side effect of not
being in a hurry. I imagine it would look different if I were trying to get
words on paper as quickly as possible. I print, but over the years some of the
letters have developed there own style. I suppose that happens to most
people's handwriting.

------
kentosi
It's interesting to note how many people here are commenting on the
inefficiency of writing in the cursive style. This got me thinking about the
role of handwriting today.

I imagine that our English script originated (probably from Latin) as a way of
either carving text on rock or writing with a feather pen. It probably wasn't
designed with speed in mind.

The same with the East, where Chinese characters were originally designed to
be written with a brush vertically, and not in a fast manner using a pen.
(Even they have something almost like cursive script called "grass script").

Thankfully (?) I was sent to a rather intensive school where I learnt cursive
writing at young age, and had to use it in all my written work. I'm surprised
to say that NONE of my friends today know how to write in it. This speaks for
itself as to how inefficient cursive writing is since noone really cares for
it.

There are "shorthand" methods I've heard of, but I guess I've just been too
lazy to learn them:

<http://www.alysion.org/handy/althandwriting.htm>
<http://www.omniglot.com/writing/shorthand.htm>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorthand>

~~~
pg
Our alphabet is derived from the Roman which is derived from Greek which is
derived from Phoenician. Our uppercase letters are copied from Roman versions
meant to be carved on stone. The lowercase are derived from medieval variants
(mainly Carolingian) designed to be written by hand.

So lowercase letters were designed with speed in mind. Though, interestingly,
if you write uppercase fast (like I and a lot of other people do) you tend to
reproduce the evolution of lowercase.

------
otto
I was taught cursive in elementary school and promptly stopped using it
because I found it hard to read.

I'm now taking a Russian course(for fun) and my teacher explained that
Russians do not print. I'm now at a disadvantage at reading written
Russian(cursive), not only because I cannot read cursive, but also because I'm
not as familiar with Russian as English.

~~~
crux
I think there's a (mostly) non-sequitur there. Russian cursive handwriting
bears only a very faint resemblance to Latin cursive. Russian cursive is
(famously) hard to read and confusing because so many of the letters either
look like other cursive letters, or even worse, look like other printed
letters. Indeed if you were really totally ignorant of printed Latin cursive
you'd probably find RC easier to read, because you wouldn't be seeing bloody
Ms everywhere.

~~~
Elepsis
As a native Russian speaker and someone who reads printed Russian without a
problem, I still struggle to read Russian cursive reliably. It's something
that takes practice and occasionally even the ability to infer what the word
ought to be.

If I had to work with and encounter Russian handwriting on a more regular
basis I'm sure I'd be better at it, but as is, with me only needing to try to
decipher things once a month, I find myself struggling. If I were just
learning the language I would hate to be subjected to that.

~~~
eru
It wasn't that bad in High School.

------
JulianMorrison
Pen on paper: I'm writing a note to myself, such as a shopping list. Block
letters or scribble.

Marker on whiteboard: I'm writing to be read from across the room. Block
letters.

Since I don't do art calligraphy and I don't have any relatives so old
fashioned they expect handwritten paper-mail, I simply don't find any use for
penmanship as a skill.

------
tfincannon
The best thing that ever happened to my handwriting was learning to keep up
with my real analysis professor, who filled one blackboard after another. It
forced the kinds of efficiencies described in the article.

Their book is available from the publisher, Allport Editions, at half the best
price on Amazon.

~~~
eru
I just concentrate on understanding in those cases. Writing in class is
useless for me, as I never get back to my notes anyway.

A few told me, that being unable to write (e.g. broken arm) made them
understand stuff in class better. Interestingly they always went back to
writing afterwards.

------
thenduks
Recursive handwriting considered harmful; bring back recursive handwriting.

Anyone? :)

~~~
billybob
Recursive handwriting considered harmful; bring back recursive handwriting
considered harmful; bring back recursive handwriting considered harmful; bring
back recursive handwriting considered harmful; bring back...

------
tel
I find that after a little practice with typography, my handwriting moved to
something similar to this naturally (including air joins when necessary).

I've recently worked a bit to reacquire my cursive skills, and as someone who
practices both pretty fluently I'll vouch for italic as being easier to read
and easier/faster to write.

My general handwriting is italic-form. I use block lettering, classic straight
lettering, and cursive as various ways to denote headings and sidenotes.

------
m_eiman
In Sweden there was an initiative in the seventies to teach children to write
like the author proposes. The reform didn't catch on very well though, in part
since it's slower to write like that and in part due to teachers preferring
the loop style.

These days it's up to the teachers (according to an article I read,
<http://hans.presto.tripod.com/metro000603.html> [swedish]) which style to
teach.

------
mosburger
My Mom is a third grade teacher, and they recently stopped teaching cursive
writing for many of these reasons.

------
RK
In college I used to have $1 prizes sometimes for people who could write the
entire alphabet in cursive within a minute (lower and uppercase). The success
rate was probably about 10%. It's always things like uppercase z's and q's
that kill people. Best with a group of people racing.

------
bitwize
Article is worth it for one reason:

I tried the "UFO catcher grip" (with the pencil between the index and middle
fingers) depicted and saw immediate increase in the legibility of my hurried
block printing.

I achieved greater lateral control of the pencil with this grip, also.

------
adw
This is, more or less, the writing my school taught me in the UK.

------
pilif
before we change our writing style, we should really start using real type on
our webpages and not just pictures of text. This is year 2009.

scnr

