
Egyptian pyramids found by infra-red satellite images - larryfreeman
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-13522957
======
Jun8
Is it me or does news like this throw anyone else into a frenzy of daydreaming
for a short while: using my computer expertise to enhance infrared images to
reveal hitherto unknown pyramids (combining images from multiple spectral
bands, SIFT object detection), battling with corrupt local authorities and
looters, digging for the pyramid (and unfortunately losing a few of the team
when the tunnel gives in), deciphering the Old Egyptian hieroglyphs on the
door (with some help from my hardy MBP and my custom linguistic text analysis
tools, written in a mixture of C++, Perl, and Scheme), going in and getting
stumped by an empty chamber, but wait, there's a small tunnel leading away,
investigating it with a remote controlled Arduiono-based robot I control with
my Android tablet (e.g. <http://www.gizapyramid.com/hidden.htm>) and awakening
a long-sleeping evil force within. Then, the final battle to save Earth.

OK, back to a rainy day in Chicago and trying to understand Puppet.

~~~
NickPollard
Obligatory xkcd:

<http://xkcd.com/208/>

It seems we've reached the point where there's an xkcd for every situation (on
HN at least) now. Maybe a corollary to rule 34[1] is needed.

[1] <http://xkcd.com/305/>

~~~
Jun8
Definitely! BTW, wetriffs.com is gone but .org is available

~~~
NickPollard
wetriffs.com was registered by Munroe, wasn't it?

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xbryanx
A colleague of mine worked with Sarah Parcak (the researcher featured) and
says: "They use standard satellite images taken by NASA and then apply various
photoshop filters to those images to find subtle differences in the terrain.
Egypt works great because the starting palette is so clean. They've tried the
same technology in South America and haven't had as much success."

Not sure if this is the exact technique they are using in this article, but
it's what we featured in an exhibit on Egypt he worked on.

------
xbryanx
My searching on this topic turned up this interesting book -
[http://www.amazon.com/Remote-Sensing-Archaeology-
Interdiscip...](http://www.amazon.com/Remote-Sensing-Archaeology-
Interdisciplinary-Contributions/dp/038744615X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b)

Seems like these techniques are going to radically change how we find new
archaeological sites. Tech. project idea: Build some tools to help
archaeologists learn and share from each other with this data. Build a world
wide database of IR imagery just a few meters below the surface?

~~~
mturmon
Yes, the idea in the OP is not new.

To my knowledge, the first people to use remote sensing data in an
archeological context used radar (SRTM, a synthetic aperture radar mapping
mission that flew on the space shuttle). Radar can penetrate the land to a
depth of ~meters depending on lots of factors.

They discovered the lost city of Ubar, which was a trading city (ca. 3000 BC)
in the Arabian peninsula that had been lost to the desert.

They discovered it because trails that had formerly led into Ubar gave off
stronger radar reflections.

Later on-site digs confirmed actual ruins. This was in 1992. A link:

<http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA01721>

The person who blurbed the book you found, Charles Elachi, was a key member of
the team that designed the radar instrument that found Ubar.

All of the SRTM data is online somewhere. The desert turns out to be a really
good place to look for stuff. Less clutter.

------
Wickk
>"These are just the sites [close to] the surface. There are many thousands of
additional sites that the Nile has covered over with silt. This is just the
beginning of this kind of work."

I am very curious as to what else they find through these excavations

~~~
rakkhi
Exciting news indeed. Another Tutankhamen type excavation fully intact would
be very cool

------
ra
It's fascinating how many relics of ancient civilisation are concentrated in
that part of the world.

Many presenting puzzles yet to be solved.

~~~
shii
On that line, by far the most intriguing and fascinating structure or relic
from ancient human history is the site at Göbekli Tepe[1], in modern day
Turkey. Shakes up pretty much every theory and timeline we have constructed on
how humans probably developed over time and is much too early to fit in
anywhere.

[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe>

~~~
meatpeople
Gobekli Tepe is indeed fascinating. There's a good article on it in the latest
National Geographic: [http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-
tepe/mann-...](http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-
text)

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ars
Where does the soil to cover the pyramids come from? Those are not small
structures, and you aren't just covering them - you are covering a huge area
of land.

That soil has to come from somewhere, anyone know where?

~~~
xbryanx
Most of the soils in this area are Nile delta deposits.

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brianbreslin
Does anyone know if satellite imagery could be used to map ocean floors for
this type of use? Or would the water disrupt the infrared wavelength?

~~~
dmboyd
check the absorption spectrum :
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water_absorption_spectrum....](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water_absorption_spectrum.png)

Which also explains why the ocean is blue.

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Groxx
> _... by looking at infra-red images which show up underground buildings._

Yeah, I have to: those poor underground buildings... they just don't hold a
candle to infra-red images from space, do they?

Come on BBC, "show up"? We need a Ballmer-like "Editors! Editors! Editors!"
chant right about now.

------
strebel
Maybe we can find Atlantis now.

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kahawe
How does this work exactly? The wikipedia page on Infrared did not turn up any
such use... or I missed it.

How can you see a mud brick under sand because it is " _much denser than the
soil that surrounds it_ "?

~~~
JonnieCache
Denser == absorbs more of the light/different regions of the spectrum.

This is detectable in the light that is reflected back.

It's not dissimilar to how an ultrasound scanner is used to look at a baby in
the womb. In fact, ultrasound is used in archaeology as well to do this sort
of stuff, obviously on a smaller scale.

This is the wikipedia page you want:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_spectroscopy>

Although that page discusses things at _very_ different scales to what we're
talking about here, (while I am not a physicist,) the principles are basically
the same.

~~~
hugh3
I am a physicist, and I'm afraid that the page on infra-red spectroscopy isn't
really relevant due to (as you say) the very different length scales.

What I _think_ is really going on is thermodynamics. Suppose I bury a big
stone pyramid under the sand. Stone is (I assume) a much better conductor of
heat than sand. When the sun comes up after a cold night, it heats the sand,
but the sand on top of the pyramid has its heat conducted away more
efficiently than the sand far from the pyramid, so it'll show up as slightly
cooler when imaged with the infra-red satellite.

~~~
lutorm
This was what I was wondering, too. But how deep down does the heat actually
go? Unless these structures are just a few inches below the ground, it seems
the difference would be very small. Just empirically, you don't have to dig
down more than a few inches until even desert sand is cold.

~~~
Plimsoll
The article reads, these pyramids were close to surface and therefore were
found so early on.

As for how deep does heat actually go, I would say, that if earth wouldn't
have any temperature of its own, it would go all the way down. The process
just takes extreme amounts of time. Empirically it takes time for earth to
freeze at winter (if you live north enough) and likewise one cannot dig the
ground has melted at the late of spring. Other empirical example would be rock
near a campfire, they will stay warm long time after the fire goes down. Earth
is just a very big rock.

While the ground doesn't freeze at Egypt, they certainly have some seasons,
with different average temperatures, to warm up or cool down the deep ground
temperature. So within time they should be able to see temperature differences
of objects buried deep into ground. Assuming the resolution of satellites is
good enough.

Other question would be how much interference does the warm sand over these
objects cause. As the sand is somewhat flat, it probably has black body like
radiation curve and removing it should be easy, but there always will be some
static from these processes reducing the total resolution.

Well all in all, I really don't know how they do all this.

------
unwantedLetters
I wonder how they get permission to scour Egypt with a satellite camera. And
even if permission was given, will Egyptian authorities allow control of the
satellite and the images captured to remain with a university outside the
country?

Anyone have a better idea how this process works?

~~~
mseebach
I don't think you need permission to take pictures of a country from space.

~~~
unwantedLetters
This is one of those times where I wish I could see how many points your
comment got.

I don't know whether you've gotten a lot of votes or not so I don't know if
your answer makes sense to other people as well.

Why do you think you don't need permission to take pictures of a country from
space? I think there are certain areas in all countries that they would want
to keep secret, and if you allow people to photograph in certain areas and not
in others, that's exposing where these areas are (which is an invitation for
governments to spy on those areas).

~~~
mseebach
Why does it matter how many points my comment got?

But, the closest I could get: UN General Assembly, resolution 41/65, of 3
December 1986: Principles Relating to Remote Sensing of the Earth from Outer
Space.

Principle IV: _These activities shall be conducted on the basis of respect for
the principle of full and permanent sovereignty of all States and peoples over
their own wealth and natural resources, with due regard to the rights and
interests, in accordance with international law, of other States and entities
under their jurisdiction. Such activities shall not be conducted in a manner
detrimental to the legitimate rights and interests of the sensed State._

I'm not sure how remote sensing could violate jurisdiction over wealth and
resources, but it does _not_ mention territory.

And then there's principle XII: _As soon as the primary data and the processed
data concerning the territory under its jurisdiction are produced, the sensed
State shall have access to them on a non-discriminatory basis and on
reasonable cost terms. The sensed State shall also have access to the
available analysed information concerning the territory under its jurisdiction
in the possession of any State participating in remote sensing activities on
the same basis and terms, taking particularly into account the needs and
interests of the developing countries._

If prior permission to perform the sensing was required, provisions
stipulating that the data should be shared would be redundant, I think?

Source:
[http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/oosa/en/SpaceLaw/gares/html/gar...](http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/oosa/en/SpaceLaw/gares/html/gares_41_0065.html)

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bproper
This is awesome.

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swombat
No word on whether Goa'uld holding chambers have been found in the new
pyramids, I guess.

History repeats itself. I wonder what we can find in our past that will inform
our future.

(although, one might say, the main thing that one learns from the study of
history is that people do not learn from history)

~~~
briggsbio
Nice.

