
Marijuana addiction is real, and rising - jeffreyrogers
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/24/marijuana-addiction-rising/
======
dev_420
Throwaway because obviously the stigma. But yes, it's very real. I am addicted
to marijuana. I smoke nearly 3 grams a day; what has become a $1000+/month
habit. I've always loved weed but the high salary has allowed me to lose
control. I can't sleep or eat without it. Within 24 hours without weed I
become an intolerable asshole who cannot eat or sleep. When I do sleep without
it, it's full of nightmares and I wake up soaked in a puddle of sweat. I tell
myself I am going to quit after every single joint, then I roll another. I
know it could be broken with a few months of detox but it's too painful to
deal with.

That being said I don't think it has anything intrinsically to do with weed.
People are just as addicted to cheeseburgers or coffee. The problem is a
combination of personal character flaw, and a society that forces people into
self medication of all forms.

~~~
hsienmaneja
That you experience significant physical withdrawal symptoms from marijuana
certainty calls into question the street wisdom that pot isn’t (physically)
addicting.

~~~
Baeocystin
There is one important difference: withdrawal from something like alcohol can
actually kill you. Withdrawal from marijuana makes you an irritable asshole
for a week or two.

The hardest part is understanding and coping with the issue that drives the
user to use marijuana so heavily in the first place. If it can be understood
what need the marijuana use is providing for, changing use patterns becomes
possible.

~~~
zyxwvu
Marijuana abused to self medicate is frankly cheaper than paying for mental
health medication and therapy. It's also fast acting and has only minor
negative side effects as opposed to taking several weeks to take effect and
for any negative side effects (these can be rather bothersome or bad) to go
away. Not to mention that's if that particular medication works for you. Going
through several types, change in doses, etc can go on for a year or more
easily.

In my experience however, withdrawal only takes a few days, I don't recall
being any more irritable than before except that marijuana makes me less prone
to irritations to begin with, and the thing that's the worst is the boredom.

It's what do you do with your time? Work can keep you occupied and busy, but
at home the activities you are likely going to do you did with marijuana.
Video games and television/movies are harder to 'feel' interested in. Eating
high is just really enjoyable. And trying to sleep is difficult especially
when you know you could just smoke some pot and drift off instead of being too
bored and restless to sleep.

~~~
RickS
>Marijuana abused to self medicate is frankly cheaper than paying for mental
health medication and therapy.

This implies that self medication has an outcome comparable to paying for
mental health medication and therapy.

I would assert that it does not.

~~~
njarboe
Mental health medication and therapy cost more?

~~~
davymac
Without health insurance, yeah, it’s way cheaper.

------
evo_9
It's hard for me to relate to this. I smoke daily, and probably what most
would consider a lot. I however also travel for work and or other reasons and
often go days or a week without smoking. It has no noticeable effect on me.

It could be because I'm extremely active and fit. I workout basically 7 days a
week, mostly because I do a lot of intense stuff 'for fun' (aka, play hockey
3-4 days a week, etc).

I'm not saying it's not true, just pointing out this could be related to
things beyond just pot. Aka, inactivity, perhaps an already down mental state,
etc etc.

I also take a shit-ton of vitamins and sups, I'm about to turn 51 and I train
hard and play hard because I'm often skating against high-level 18-20 year
old's etc, so I'm quite driven to stay at the top of my game. Possible some of
the vits/sups I take are offsetting whatever the pot is doing to others.

Diet, exercise, sleep - so many factors goes into feeling well. Addiction
though, man that's a lot more extreme than I would label my desire for pot. I
mean I certainly enjoy it and even sometimes wish I had some on a trip, but
it's a passing though more than anything.

Update: one point I should note, I only smoke Sativa's, or sativa heavy
hybrids. Not sure if that's a factor but thought I was worth noting.

~~~
tzar
How long have you been smoking daily? From the article:

> Unlike with opioids and stimulants, marijuana dependence tends to develop
> slowly: Months or years may pass before symptoms begin to affect a dependent
> user’s life.

The case is similar with alcohol dependence: it can take quite a long time.

~~~
Zooper
It's also worth noting that this "Addiction" that takes so long to develop
goes away in about 1-2 weeks.

~~~
inks
Most addictions “go away” in about 1-2 weeks. Even opiate addiction goes away
after a max of a week, it’s the psychological effects that last unlike say
benzodiazepine which has a recovery time measured in years.

------
fb03
Humans can get hooked to anything that triggers a 'feel good' response, be it
gorging on food, drugs, gambling or even exercising.

With all the grinding, long hours and stressful situations "modern life" puts
us through, it's not difficult to see how people more and more just want to
hit the 'instant gratification' button instead of actually getting better by
working their underlying issues.... there is simply no time for downtime and
relaxation anymore, everyone is just too busy doing "actual important stuff",
which is a sad matter of affairs.

~~~
taobility
you just want to give a reason to indulge yourself. Every adult should clearly
know the difference between good habit or bad addiction.

~~~
asdffdsa321
Is exercise a good habit or bad addiction?

~~~
Kluny
Everything is bad for you if you do it enough. "All things in moderation", as
the Greeks said.

------
mediocrejoker
In that entire article, the only definition of 'marijuana addiction' is a
single sentence, and one that requires further clarification:

> But in the public health and medical communities, it is a well-defined
> disorder that includes physical withdrawal symptoms, cravings and
> psychological dependence.

Does anyone know what the specific criteria are for diagnosis? The rest of the
article seems to be quotes from various people stating without evidence "Yes,
marijuana addiction is real"

I'm not saying it's not real, but nothing in this article provides any
evidence that it is.

~~~
DanBC
Cannabis Use Disorder: [https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/cannabis-use-
disorder-d...](https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/cannabis-use-disorder-dsm
--5%2c-305.20%2c-304.30)

\---begin quote---

According to the DSM-5, (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental
Disorders, fifth edition) the criteria for Cannabis Use Disorder is as
follows:

Use of cannabis for at least a one year period, with the presence of at least
two of the following symptoms, accompanied by significant impairment of
functioning and distress:

Difficulty containing use of cannabis- the drug is used in larger amounts and
over a longer period than intended.

Repeated failed efforts to discontinue or reduce the amount of cannabis that
is used

An inordinate amount of time is occupied acquiring, using, or recovering from
the effects of cannabis.

Cravings or desires to use cannabis. This can include intrusive thoughts and
images, and dreams about cannabis, or olfactory perceptions of the smell of
cannabis, due to preoccupation with cannabis.

Continued use of cannabis despite adverse consequences from its use, such as
criminal charges, ultimatums of abandonment from spouse/partner/friends, and
poor productivity.

Other important activities in life, such as work, school, hygiene, and
responsibility to family and friends are superseded by the desire to use
cannabis.

Cannabis is used in contexts that are potentially dangerous, such as operating
a motor vehicle.

Use of cannabis continues despite awareness of physical or psychological
problems attributed to use- e.g., anergia, amotivation, chronic cough.

Tolerance to Cannabis, as defined by progressively larger amounts of cannabis
are needed to obtain the psychoactive effect experienced when use first
commenced, or, noticeably reduced effect of use of the same amount of cannabis

Withdrawal, defined as the typical withdrawal syndrome associate with
cannabis, or cannabis or a similar substance is used to prevent withdrawal
symptoms.

\---end quote---

This is similar to substance misuse disorder.

[https://www.verywellmind.com/dsm-5-criteria-for-substance-
us...](https://www.verywellmind.com/dsm-5-criteria-for-substance-use-
disorders-21926)

\---begin quote---

The DSM 5 recognizes substance-related disorders resulting from the use of 10
separate classes of drugs: alcohol; caffeine; cannabis; hallucinogens
(phencyclidine or similarly acting arylcyclohexylamines, and other
hallucinogens, such as LSD); inhalants; opioids; sedatives, hypnotics, or
anxiolytics; stimulants (including amphetamine-type substances, cocaine, and
other stimulants); tobacco; and other or unknown substances. Therefore, while
some major groupings of psychoactive substances are specifically identified,
the use of other or unknown substances can also form the basis of a substance-
related or addictive disorder.

Substance use disorders span a wide variety of problems arising from substance
use, and cover 11 different criteria:

Taking the substance in larger amounts or for longer than you're meant to.

Wanting to cut down or stop using the substance but not managing to.

Spending a lot of time getting, using, or recovering from use of the
substance.

Cravings and urges to use the substance.

Not managing to do what you should at work, home, or school because of
substance use.

Continuing to use, even when it causes problems in relationships.

Giving up important social, occupational, or recreational activities because
of substance use.

Using substances again and again, even when it puts you in danger.

Continuing to use, even when you know you have a physical or psychological
problem that could have been caused or made worse by the substance.

Needing more of the substance to get the effect you want (tolerance).

Development of withdrawal symptoms, which can be relieved by taking more of
the substance.

\---end quote---

------
omegbule
A very real thing is that weed is a crutch for depression here in the states.

~~~
StanislavPetrov
Which speaks to the larger question, why are so many people in our society
depressed?

~~~
anaptdemise
Unsolicited life advice.

If you have to drink or do drugs to do your job, you should probably question
your career path.

If you have to drink or do drugs to feel satisfied with your life, you should
probably ask yourself what you have actually done to make your situation
better.

Good for strippers, accountants, lawyers, anyone.

~~~
StanislavPetrov
It seems to me that many people lack the capacity for this sort of
introspection, especially those who are depressed. It also begs the question:
what about the people who don't have the ability to make their lives better
(either because they lack the capacity to make good decisions or that no good
decisions are available for them to make given their circumstance)? At what
point is it acceptable to take a broader view and note that the structure of
our society itself is a major factor in widespread depression, rather than any
poor personal choices made by individuals?

------
m0llusk
Hacker News reading can be an especially pernicious and problematic addiction.
Seriously, often in the startup world I find software engineers with TODO
lists spanning space and time compulsively reading and scanning the HN front
page. Oh, look: cannabis users addicted, dopamine rush. Altruistic punishment
means an immediate boost to social status and opportunities for bonding. So
who exactly is addicted to what again?

~~~
DanBC
Are you preoccupied by HN when you're doing something else? Do you seek HN
when it's not available? Is using HN causing you harm but you continue to use
it?

If you don't answer "yes" to each of these you're not "addicted" to HN.

------
emodendroket
Perhaps that is the case, but what bothers me is that these arguments are
often put forth as an argument for continuing to use the criminal justice
system to address the problem.

~~~
DanBC
You can see a lot of public health campaigners who said "we shouldn't legalise
until we have some form of treatment set up and we have agreement from sellers
that they'll provide warnings".

And then some US states legalised, and they mostly don't have treatment and
they mostly don't have any point of sale information about harm, and so those
same people are asking why not.

~~~
emodendroket
OK, but, again, the main alternative being proposed is locking people up for
smoking weed, which is a funny way of helping them.

------
goldfeld
It's interesting to hear that the skyrocketing quality of weed is making
things worse, or more difficult for hardcore users, I agree. Meanwhile in Rio
where I've smoked for years, quality is plummeting and/or price of quality
weed, a rare thing to come by, is skyrocketing as combined effects of ever-
present prohibition and financial crisis rage on.

It comes as a blessing in disguise for many people I know who have smoked
daily for years, myself included. Hearing about close friends toning down or
quitting as well is encouraging in a reverse peer pressure kind of way. After
6 years I finally decided there's too much crap going into my lungs (where
plant material is the pristine part of that) to keep a habit without excessive
spending. I quit buying and so quit my daily smoking cold turkey without
bigger issues. A good wave of life events helped a lot to focus elsewhere.

I wouldn't think about never smoking again and it still happens some times a
week when friends have it. I'm starting to feel more confident again in buying
just a few grams of greener stuff once or twice a month and try to make it
last, using after heavy exercise for pain/recovery management and trying to
share what little I've got with friends too. It's a different mindset now,
away from the loner self-absorbed retreats from life I had been used to, I
feel much better for it. Not any point in this post I guess, just an anecdote.

------
zaroth
> “She told me to come back home. So I did,” Pohl said. “At the time, I wasn’t
> sure why she did that. I was still in that whole miserable phase, smoking at
> least an ounce of weed a week — two ounces on a good week.”

Yikes. You can do just fine on one gram a _month_ at today’s potency. Two
ounces a week is 8 grams a _day_.

~~~
pouta
1 per month? As a daily smoker, how?

------
techer
Addiction is real, and rising.

------
shamborambo
Anything that downregulates neuroreceptors and reduces the production of a
neurotransmitter will have a noticeable effect on the areas of the body where
those receptors are prevalent, as well as the brain. Smoking cannabis reduces
the production of anandamide, a naturally occurring endocannabinoid, and
downregulates your CB receptors. Anandamide is being discovered to have
essential roles in your endocrine system and many other systems. Cannabis
addiction is very real, and can leave a heavy user hospitalized from the
withdrawal effects. I have seen first hand heavy dab users being hospitalized
with cannabis induced hyperemesis due to the lack of naturally produced
anandamide and the downregulation of their cannabinoid receptors. Sure, the
average or occasional user may be able to get by without severe side effects
from their withdrawal, but with the ease of access we are finding people are
smoking more cannabis then they ever have in the past. The mentality that the
drug is safe leads to heavily increased use for those who quickly build
tolerance. Sure the drug may not kill, but the physiological and psychological
effects are not to be ignored.

------
syntaxing
Interesting. I always though that Marijuana is not as addicting because THC is
stored in your fat. The THC gets slowly absorbed back into your system which
lessens the withdrawals symptoms. I wonder if there is a threshold where your
THC consumption far exceeds the maximum saturation of THC in your fat which
make the person experience withdrawal symptoms similar to opioids.

------
namlem
I've been addicted to weed. Back in May I quit for a while and I had 2-3 days
of withdrawal. It wasn't that bad overall, but I was grumpy and had no
appetite for those few days. It's not accurate to say that cannabis is not
physically addictive, even if it's much less so than opiates or alcohol.

------
neo4sure
Can we have a comparison with alcohol addiction? This would give an insight
into whether is a wider problem as with alcohol.

------
nerdystoner
Here is some of the latest science, an invited review from the Journal of
Neuroimmune Pharmacology.
[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11481-018-9782-...](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11481-018-9782-9)

Here is a good quote from the discussion portion of this review:

<blockquote> As described in the Koob and Volkow model (2016), most drugs of
abuse result in the hyperactivation of the mesocorticolimbic dopaminergic
reward pathway in the binge-intoxication stage of addiction. This
hyperactivation seems to be present in cannabis addiction but to a lower
extent. Acute THC administration elicits striatal DA release in animals
(Bloomfield et al. 2016) and THC challenges were shown to increase striatal DA
transmission in humans (Stokes et al. 2010; Bossong et al. 2015); although
other studies have found no THC-induced increases in striatal DA (Barkus et
al. 2011; Urban et al. 2012). Additionally, there are no baseline differences
in dopamine D2/D3 receptor availability between cannabis users and healthy
controls (Volkow et al. 2014c; van de Giessen et al. 2017), a finding that
does not parallel addiction to other drugs of abuse (including cocaine,
alcohol, methamphetamine, nicotine, or heroin) which is associated with
substantial reductions in D2R availability in the ventral striatum (Wang et
al. 1997; Volkow et al. 2001, 2014c, 2017c; Martinez et al. 2012; Albrecht et
al. 2013; Tomasi et al. 2015a; Wiers et al. 2016a; Ashok et al. 2017).
Nonetheless, as with other drugs of abuse, chronic cannabis use still results
in blunted dopamine reactivity to a stimulant challenge (Volkow et al. 2014c;
van de Giessen et al. 2017). </blockquote>

furthermore (CUD = Cannabis Use Disorder):

<blockquote> Interestingly, chronic cannabis use is associated with a
downregulation of CB1R – THC’s target receptor – that is restored after 4
weeks of abstinence in humans (Hirvonen et al. 2012). This pattern of
abstinence-induced changes in target receptor density is also seen after
abstinence from other drugs of abuse such as heroin, stimulants, and alcohol
(in humans and animals) but with some caveats: the changes found are not
consistent across brain regions for every drug and abstinence periods are not
congruent between studies (Wang et al. 2012; Seip-Cammack et al. 2013; Ashok
et al. 2017; Volkow et al. 2017c). Future studies should examine to whether
changes in target receptors after abstinence are comparable across brain
regions and if they follow the same time course in CUD and other SUD.
</blockquote>

Basically, Cannabis is a little addictive, maybe, and abstinence makes most
people somewhat cranky and sleepless for a few days.

Personally, I've been a constant consumer for 25+ years, vape all day and grow
my own. Quit a week before leaving for a three week international vacation
that I'm almost done with, because I was intrigued by the 4 weeks of
abstinence quote above. Not much in the way of sleeplessness or crankiness.
Plenty of weird dreams though. Just like all my usual abstaining vacations and
visits home, which usually don't last a month. YMMV.

IMHO the real addiction is buying seeds. I think I have enough in my fridge to
last me the rest of my life :-(

------
hsienmaneja
Physicians often have colloquially considered pot to not be a root cause for
some patients, when it should be.

If a child starts self medicating with pot and then their life deteriorates
along with their pot usage, there needs to be a focus on cessation of usage,
particularly since the child’s brain is still developing.

This has nothing to do with addressing any other underlying issues that the
child may be experiencing. Regardless, some people are best off staying away
from pot entirely (as well as other substances that are not part of this
discussion).

------
robdachshund
What's with these shitty anti drug articles all over HN? I just watched a
bunch of armchair intellectuals argue over the ethics of ecigs, and now this.

MJ is not any more addictive than eating good food or jerking off. It's down
to you and having good habits. If you don't have any self control, then
anything that gives you a dopamine boost is going to give you problems.

------
sAbakumoff
C'mon, I smoke every day and still not addicted!

~~~
RIMR
Here's a challenge.

Put all your stuff in a container, and put it on a shelf. Leave it there for a
week, and don't use it.

Every time you think about opening the container, write it down. I bet you'll
think about opening the container a LOT more than you think will.

Do you think you could make it to the end of the week? If not, you're
addicted.

~~~
DanBC
That's a useful experiment, but that's not what people mean when they talk
about cannabis addiction.

They mean that cannabis is having a profound harmful impact on the person's
life, and the person cannot stop even though they recognise it's causing harm.

~~~
sAbakumoff
exactly. if I smoke every day and it does not have any impact on my life then
it can't be called addiction.

------
chrisdhoover
It is not.

------
merinowool
You can spot propaganda piece by the language they use. "Marijuana",
"addiction"... 9% is nothing new and generally accepted value. Comparing to
alcohol dependency, cannabis dependency has dramatically lower health risks
and sometimes is actually beneficial (self medication)

~~~
zepto
You speak as though most people who take up cannabis are aware of a 10% risk
of addiction. Perhaps this ‘generally accepted value’ should be added to the
marijuana advertising just to make sure.

