
The American Dream Is Alive in China - Reedx
https://palladiummag.com/2019/10/11/the-american-dream-is-alive-in-china/
======
helen___keller
While I disagree pretty heavily with the author's central thesis (and this
thesis relies on an ill-defined "american dream" that the author roughly
describes as the period of postwar growth & prosperity for middle/upper class
americans in the 1950s), I do have to agree with this part of the author's
conclusion:

> China’s success scares me. There is something deeply disconcerting about
> watching China surpass America in the ways it is. China is transforming
> fishing villages into major industrial cities, while we fail to build high-
> speed rail or new housing. How are we going to catch up?

Right now China is still high off a period of heavy growth and
industrialization. How China can handle easing out of heavy growth in the next
2-6 decades will show how real the Chinese dream is, but my personal fear (as
a person who believes strongly in western liberalism) is that a rich
authoritarian country can unlock a world of efficiency that the western world
can only dream of, leaving our standard of living in the dust by comparison

I fear that this will lead to an era of global authoritarianism as countries
around the world seek to emulate the success.

As a rail enthusiast, watching China build huge subway networks and a massive
web of HSR almost overnight while my very rich western city struggles to
extend a century old trolley by a few miles in the same timeframe, it really
feels bad.

~~~
dbspin
I wonder about this. By all accounts construction of homes in China is so
haphazard buildings frequently become uninhabitable, and occasionally
literally collapse within a few years. Clearly China has a lot of money and
has exhibited the capacity for some large scale construction projects. But to
what extent it is merely attempting to outrun a construction bubble, and
ensnare developing world countries in debt; versus building a sustainable
economic model, is questionable.

At the bottom end, manufacturing is moving out of China to countries like
Vietnam. While high tech manufacturing is still China's forte, this is largely
confined to special economic zones like Shenzien, and reliant on lack of
enforcement of patent and copyright, as well as government subsidies for
import and exports of components and manufactured goods. We're all familiar
with the impossibly cheap components and electronic devices available through
services like Ali.

I'm not sure any of this is sustainable - whether in an environmental sense,
or economically. There is much that is illusory about the Chinese economy, and
the recent clamp down of state control may well be an effort for the CCP to
maintain control during the inevitable economic collapse they see coming.

~~~
helen___keller
> By all accounts construction of homes in China is so haphazard buildings
> frequently become uninhabitable, and occasionally literally collapse within
> a few years.

Well, I'm not convinced that this effect is necessarily widespread. Certainly
more common than in the west where we have strict building regulations and
such, but this is the flip side of getting a lot of housing built cheaply,
which is necessary for China. An analogue might be construction in the states
during our industrial revolution - we had all sorts of horrid issues, from
barely-livable tenements with no ventilation to massive fires that killed tons
of poor workers. Most of the stuff we built back then doesn't come close to
conforming with modern building code.

In any case, it's not a big problem I saw personally in China, but I'm n=1
here. I stayed in a relatives' apartment building from the 90s that was
holding up fine, as well as perfectly nice newer apartments that relatives
enjoyed in tier3 cities and older houses and townhouses that aged well.

I imagine this is the kind of thing that western media likes to play up, but
isn't as visible for people on the ground (another example is the social
credit system - I couldn't find any evidence the social credit system even
exists yet during my time in China, much less the horrifying things we see
reported regularly.)

> But to what extent it is merely attempting to outrun a construction bubble,
> and ensnare developing world countries in debt; versus building a
> sustainable economic model, is questionable.

Strongly agreed, hence my comments that the next 2-6 decades of slowing growth
will be very telling on the "Chinese dream".

I don't think Chinese success is guaranteed - I think the CCP has made a lot
of frightful financial gambles. My big fear is that it _does_ , somehow, pay
off, and the world turns to China as a model of how to run a country as a
result.

------
ng12
This is the opposite of the American dream. Immigrants fled to the US for it's
unprecedented social mobility and opportunity. Things being nice for the upper
echelons of society has little to do with it.

------
pixelperfect
The author of this article seems to anticipate that the growth China has
experienced during the past few decades will continue for the foreseeable
future. I am doubtful. International corporations continue moving
manufacturing to other countries. China's total debt / GDP ratio keeps rising
and will eventually be unsustainable. Population is aging. Automation will
displace many manufacturing jobs. I don't think China's future is totally
bleak, but it isn't rosy either.

------
strangattractor
I know I have always dreamed of being thrown in prison for criticizing the
government:0

~~~
KingMachiavelli
The 50s are quite often described as the time that America had achieved the
'American Dream'. And during that time thousands of people were imprisoned
and/or lost their jobs due to Kafkaesque trails performed by the House Un-
American Activities Committee.

~~~
99052882514569
The scale, intensity and length are just not comparable. It's like comparing
the Gulag to modern American prison labour.

~~~
thawaway1837
If we are talking about that specific time period, then what China is doing
now is hardly any worse than what was being done to African Americans in the
US at the time. And the scale is absolutely comparable.

The major difference, however, is that the US was still a democracy that had
mechanisms to allow for things to be changed for the better. It’s hard to see
what mechanisms for improvements exist in China.

~~~
99052882514569
Sorry, not sure what it is we're comparing? 1950s segregation to the
oppression of Uygurs, in which case no, in the 1950s the US was not running an
all-encompassing dystopian surveillance state, mass reeducation camps and
oppressive forced assimilation of African Americans? Or 1950s segregation to
imprisonment and torture of political dissidents in general, in which case no,
in the 1950s the US was not rounding up every Black activist and executing him
or throwing him in jail for decades?

~~~
senorjazz
> Or 1950s segregation to imprisonment and torture of political dissidents in
> general, in which case no, in the 1950s the US was not rounding up every
> Black activist and executing him or throwing him in jail for decades?

Not on home soil perhaps. But from the 50s to at least the 80s, that was the
general policy in Latin Amercia. Then for more recent you can look to the
middle east for the mass round up of civilians, torture and decades long
imprisonment without charge.

Not exactly the same, but correlations exist, as they do for the parent
comment you are replying to

------
TremendousJudge
>Coverage I’ve read in American discourse focuses on the dystopian side of the
Chinese government. Examples abound: from its oppression of Uyghurs, to its
outright ban of many religious groups, to its increasingly aggressive
influence in American political and social life—like the Blizzard and NBA
cases over the last week. But over the last five years, this discourse, though
often correct, has felt increasingly disconnected from my personal experiences
in China and the more fundamental problems at hand. In particular, it fails to
comment on the larger, more important context: how much better life has become
for many Chinese people, China’s new self-confidence, and America’s struggle
with development, optimism, and sovereignty.

What the hell is this guy saying? "Oh sure, China has literal concentration
camps, but as long as you're not there then it's just great!"

>In many ways, China in the 2010s reminds me of what I’ve read of America in
the 1950s: the country is powerful, economic development is booming, and
people are optimistic about the future.

"People" meaning "the ruling class". It was great living in America in the
fifties, as long as you were a white dude with a job.

~~~
ThinkBeat
I agree that there are many negative things that has done and still do.
Including the things you name.

As an American, though I think my country might be even more shameful, We have
Gitmo. We have a country that lied into a war that killed at least 100.000s of
people.

Our treatment of asylum seekers now is certainly worth a dystopian movie or
two.

As far as the 1950s you are defining the ruling class as the ruling class and
the middle class? I dont disagree with you about diversity but the middle
class was much better off than it is today.

Our ever-shrinking middle class and our ever getting richer oligarchs and the
political class is contrasted to China's increasing middle class.

But you go from zero it is easy to improve, and in the US we used to have a
large middle class so it is easier to lose.

------
dbspin
This is a bizarrely rose tinted view of China, which not only completely
ignores mistreatment of ethnic, religious and sexual minorities - from
imprisonment and 'reeducation to literal organ legging; but also the everyday
horrors of life under an authoritarian dictatorship.

For example the frequent adulteration of food (including baby food) with
poisons. The panopticon surveillance and control of movement which prevents
the poor and those living in rural areas from travelling within their own
country. Restrictions on free speech, not only political in nature but
critical of any aspects of civil society - and the inevitable lack of reforms
to public health and safety.

Increasing nationalism, police observation and 'patriotic' violent attacks on
foreigners. Violence against medical professionals when patients feel (rightly
or wrongly) that they haven't received the treatment they should have.

The rise of an unelected dictator forming a cult of personality and the
subsequent reinvigoration of anti-foreign, nativist han Chinese sentiment, and
the increased suppression of minorities and dissent that has resulted.

The thousands of 'incidents' of protests (attempted rebellions) that are
ruthlessly crushed each year, while being actively hidden by Chinese media and
social media.

The incredibly successful censorship of both China's own history and any
discourse about political reform.

On and on.

China is a spectacular case of all the ills that can befall a centralised
authoritarian regime when people cannot directly criticise their government.
This article seems to advocate 'learning from China' in a way that implies
replicating their authoritarian control. It reminds me of a bizarre TED talk a
few years ago that celebrated the supposedly effective meritocracy of the CCP
- just before it became one man dictatorship - while ignoring the fact that
the CCP leadership is almost exclusively composed of the children and
grandchildren of the communist party leaders that supported Mao. It is in
short, thinly veiled propaganda.

~~~
senorjazz
> which not only completely ignores mistreatment of ethnic, religious and
> sexual minorities - from imprisonment

but the US statistics on imprisonment of minorities is no better.

> For example the frequent adulteration of food (including baby food) with
> poisons

all major countries have scares and recalls due to contamination

> The panopticon surveillance

really? After all the details come out in the last 5 years, surveillance
cannot be thrown at the Chinese alone. UK leads CCTV per population (or some
metric). NSA data slurping revelations...

> and the inevitable lack of reforms to public health and safety.

why do you think the Chinese do not make improvements to public health and
safety? Of course they do.

> Increasing nationalism, police observation and 'patriotic' violent attacks
> on foreigners

errr are you blind to the rise of this in the US since Trump and UK since
brexit?

> Violence against medical professionals when patients feel

Bombing abortion clinics comes to mind

> The rise of an unelected dictator forming a cult of personality and the
> subsequent reinvigoration of anti-foreign, nativist han Chinese sentiment,
> and the increased suppression of minorities and dissent that has resulted.

Change unelected to "unelected by the majority" in higly disputed elections
countrywide with many cases of fraud and vote tampering and I can think of
another country this applies to

Anyway, why does the above mean there is no "American Dream" in China, when
most the accusations you make can be levelled (in some form) to the US as well

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Cherry-picking? Some of the objections are reasonably reflected back at the
Western world, but most are nowhere to the degree perfected in China. War on
Muslims (systematic destruction of Mosques etc); military conflict with Tibet
(their own people?); the astonishing 'social credit score' system.

Sure there may be an American Dream in China, if you line up with the
acceptable profile of citizen. But the Dream is supposed to be for everybody;
that's foundational to the idea.

------
bassman9000
Yeah no, thanks.

Sure, everything is nice for many people if you don't dare speak against the
authority. Tomorrow you're on the wrong side of the fence. Good luck coming
back.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-
ap...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-app-on-xis-
ideology-allows-data-access-to-100-million-users-phones-report-
says/2019/10/11/2d53bbae-eb4d-11e9-bafb-da248f8d5734_story.html)

[https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-
cybersecurit...](https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-
cybersecurity-program-no-place-to-hide.html)

~~~
99052882514569
Not to mention that, once in a while, even people who don't dare speak against
the authority get caught up and obliterated by the system. It's the nature of
oppressive authoritarian systems where the rule of law is absent. You don't
necessarily need to _do_ anything for it to single you out.

On the topic of the 'American Dream': the more successful you are, the more
likely it is in such a system that you don't pay off the right guy in time, or
don't surrender enough of your wealth to a well-connected guy who wants a
piece of it. And off to the Gulags you go, sharing a cell with the 'political
prisoner' who pointed to as a cautionary tale of why you must not speak out
and criticize the government. Wait, does that mean you're also a 'political
prisoner' now too?

~~~
ThinkBeat
Assange, Snowden, Manning.. Speaking truth to power is not without its risks
in the US.

The list can be made much larger, but then it needs to explain each case,
whereas the ones above most people know about.

You can say this is not speaking truth to power, it was leaks that are
different but not really.

Concentration camps in China, might be a secret. I dont think they are but
what goes on in side of them is meant to be, breaking the government's
repression of information is a good thing.

Just like telling the world what the US really does is good for our country.

~~~
99052882514569
Are you trying to say all states use coercion, or actually trying to draw
parallels between Chinese and US government's methodology for suppressing
dissent? Because if it's the latter, they are not comparable. You wouldn't
even hear of a Chinese soldier who did what Manning did, regardless of
motivations and how wrong the military's exposed actions were. Neither would
his family hear about him, ever again. People have been executed in China for
far less, sometimes simply for losing a high-stakes political game.

The larger point I was trying to make is that having the rule of law usually
moderates the severity of repression, sure, but it's not just a difference in
degree. It's a difference in kind - it prevents arbitrary oppression. You can
fault the US for suppressing whistle-blowers/leakers, but you cannot tell me
those whistle-blowers/leakers simply stumbled into their actions without
knowing they'll get in trouble. They knew the game, and knowingly broke its
rules. Are there rules in China? Maybe, until there aren't. Ask the two
Canadians being held in isolation without even the right to a book, just
because their files turned up at the wrong bureaucrats desk and became needed
to send a message to the Canadian government.

This is also why I won't set foot in the PRC if I can help it. I don't want to
be used as a message to my government, no matter how unlikely it is for an
insignificant pawn like me to get caught up in something like that. I'll limit
my travel to places where I can read up on rules beforehand, and those rules
are actually followed.

