
Mozilla Unveils $33 Intex Cloud FX Smartphone - rhelmer
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/08/26/mozilla-unveils-33-intex-cloud-fx-smartphone/
======
diafygi
I've been a huge fan of Firefox OS for a long time[1], but here's something I
think many people here aren't realizing: Firefox OS considerably lowers the
barriers to entry for app developers.

Firefox OS apps are just html pages in a zip file, so all you need to create
one is a text editor and a browser. In fact, Firefox will soon include an
IDE[2], so you don't even need a text editor anymore. I think that will have a
massive impact on how many developers will make apps for Firefox OS,
especially local developing world apps.

If you only have non-administrator access to a computer in an internet cafe or
some other shared computer, you can probably still develop Firefox OS apps
since it may already have Firefox installed. Additionally, there's millions of
tutorials online about web development, many of which are very beginner
friendly and in multiple languages.

This extremely low barrier to entry will allow local communities to easily
make apps that cater to just their local needs. Want to know where the best
location to get water is? Want to know which farms in the area are hiring?
Want to see the local mayor's latest scandalous photo? These all can be coded
in a weekend at the local internet cafe.

EDIT: Also, where can I buy one?

[1] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3MU3jxEye8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3MU3jxEye8)

[2] - [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Tools/WebIDE](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/WebIDE)

~~~
JohnTHaller
You'll be able to develop on internet cafe and shared computers without
needing to have Firefox installed if you have a USB drive with Mozilla
Firefox, Portable Edition [1] on it. The WebIDE is already available in
Firefox 34 nightly builds, which are also portable [2]. You won't be able to
install the drivers to connect to a Firefox OS device without admin rights, of
course.

[1] -
[http://portableapps.com/apps/internet/firefox_portable](http://portableapps.com/apps/internet/firefox_portable)

[2] -
[http://portableapps.com/apps/internet/firefox_portable/test#...](http://portableapps.com/apps/internet/firefox_portable/test#nightly)

~~~
iancarroll
I don't live anywhere near a startup "area", but has anyone actually seen an
internet cafe that isn't locked with over protective software?

~~~
JohnTHaller
There are quite a few. It basically varies with the type and size of internet
cafe. Large commercial internet cafes with dozens of machines that only do
internet will often be locked down and reset the PC after each user. Many will
have software prohibiting just about everything. Some will not. Smaller places
like copy and photo shops that have a dozen machines or coffee shops with
several machines will often have machines that allow portable software use.

------
discardorama
Here are some reviews of the phone:

[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/mobiles/First-
impres...](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/mobiles/First-impressions-
Intex-Cloud-FX-Firefox-OS-phone/articleshow/40868366.cms)

[http://gadgets.ndtv.com/mobiles/reviews/intex-cloud-fx-
india...](http://gadgets.ndtv.com/mobiles/reviews/intex-cloud-fx-indias-
cheapest-smartphone-first-impressions-581818)

GSM, Camera, Wi-Fi, Micro-USB, Bluetooth, FM radio in a $33 device with a
screen and 128MB memory?!?!

~~~
nsomaru
From the Times review:

"The phone needs constant connectivity to the internet, which could be a
downer."

Indeed. Especially due to: (1) affordability of data to the targeted segment
(2) choked networks (I'm looking at you, Mumbai) (3) non-existent networks (4)
weird 'in country' roaming that bundles don't transfer across, sometimes even
within states (Mumbai, Pune)

I've lived in India for a few years, and travelled in relatively rural local
trains during the morning commute. There are lots of cheap Chinese Androids
and some Samsungs too. The connectivity was intermittent and lots of people
like doing stuff on their phones on the train, especially the more tech-
inclined folks.

~~~
tr0picana
This caught my eye too. Also the phone doesn't have 3G. I can't imagine an
always-connected phone performing well on Edge.

~~~
rhelmer
Apps are built using web technologies like HTML5 and JS - this doesn't mean
the phone is "always-connected", the review is incorrect on this point.

Some apps are offline, some are only online, many are both. This is just like
other popular smartphone platforms.

------
suprgeek
India is a great market for a low cost smartphone. For a long time Nokia was
king, both high-end to very-low end. There are many people who are now
migrating off these cheap Nokia's into these tier-two companies, such as
Micromax/Intex etc.

Might as well they migrate to an open hackable platform - Two apps that really
need to come pre-installed - WhatsApp & RedBus. I have been stunned when a
village lady asked me if my phone had the bus schedule (the last time I was
visiting). A 10 minute conversation with her changed my perspective
significantly from the Silicon Valley bubble that I am usually surrounded
by...

~~~
darklajid
Actually for me the missing features are

\- a mail client that works well (and that includes at least push/imap idle
support and SHOULD, in the RFC sense, include server side searches)

\- a client for xmpp

Note that there are some apps for the latter use case, but those are either
broken, incomplete, or use bosh to talk to a random untrusted server elsewhere
which _then_ connects to the server you want to use.

I might be able to forgive the lack of (decent, usable) xmpp support, but at
the moment the limited mail client is the feature that keeps my Flame on my
desk. A smart phone without emails is .. a tough sell, if you have a working
solution on another platform. Even if you WANT to make the switch.

~~~
illumen
Background mode for apps! You know, so apps can be actually useful for mobile
applications.

This is the biggest missing feature by Mozilla, and it really shows their lack
of understanding of how mobile apps work.

~~~
fabrice_d
The situation on background 'services' is not ideal that's true but it's not
as bad as you paint it. Since v1.0 it's possible to wake up an app with the
alarm api and let it run whatever it needs to. This is used eg. by the
calendar app for periodic synchronization. The future is Service Workers, and
support should be there in gecko by the end of the year. Note that anyway, you
should always design your service as something that can be shutdown by the OS
if it needs to allocate resources somewhere else.

------
makmanalp
$33? That's basically a raspberry pi with GSM for an amazing price. If I could
pop open the case to get to pins or have a video out or something, this would
be game changing.

~~~
discardorama
It's a RasPi with GSM, Bluetooth _and_ WiFi, for $33. Pretty sweet for
embedded projects!

~~~
icefox
and a touch screen!

Edit: and a battery and a case...

------
drblast
At that price it's nearly disposable. I'd LOVE a phone like that; I have a
hard time paying a lot for something that I carry and can easily break,
especially since I'm not welded to my phone like most people seem to be.

------
GFischer
I hope carriers or sellers don't create unfullfilled expectations.

Here in Uruguay, one of the carriers, Movistar, heavily marketed the Firefox
OS phone, and quite a few non-techies bought them (including coworkers), and
were VERY dissapointed when they found out it was very limited compared to
similarly priced Android phones (one BIG disappointment was the lack of
WhatsApp, a deal-breaker in my country).

Edit: it seems that "ConnectA2, a WhatsApp client, comes bundled with the
phone". Good point :)

Firefox OS needs to be able to combat the network effect of Android and iOS,
or it will fail. Windows Phone already suffers from the same.

[http://firefoxosguide.com/firefox-os/firefox-os-
accounted-30...](http://firefoxosguide.com/firefox-os/firefox-os-
accounted-30-smartphone-sales-movistar-uruguay-holidays.html/)

------
josu
Is this a loss leader? Or what's their revenue model? I'm aware of this:

> _WSJD: What is your revenue model? And what is your target?

Hsu: Mozilla is a nonprofit organization. We do need revenue for sure. For now
our revenue is mainly from the desktop. We work with a lot of web content
search engines and all the service providers; we have a revenue sharing model
with them.

We are targeting to see if we can reach one percent market share (of
smartphones), and that’ll be a good beginning. We don’t know when but that’s
our goal._

But it just doesn't answer my question. I can't see how a $33 phone can be
profitable, unless they expect to make more money after the sale.

~~~
atopal
Well, Mozilla doesn't actually build or sell any phones. Mozilla just provides
the OS. Since Intex is no charity, you should assume that they are still
making a profit at $33.

------
lovelearning
They've managed to deploy Firefox OS - which is based on AOSP - on just 128 MB
of RAM? I'm impressed!

~~~
Hario
AOSP?

~~~
dublinben
Android Open Source Project. The base for every Android phone.

------
xanderstrike
I've been using the Open C for a couple weeks now, and while it continues to
surprise with how capable it is, it consistently seems to just barely scrape
by on the hardware (512mb RAM, 1.2ghz dual core). I wonder what sorts of
concessions had to be made to make this $33 phone a reality. Will it be all
that different from symbian feature phone?

Either way, I'll be buying one when it goes up on ebay.

~~~
janjongboom
From the top of my head: less animations, no autocorrect on the keyboard,
quicker killing of applications, memory pressure events integrated in the
built-in applications so they clear out stuff when needed.

More information can be found on the Tarako[1] info page at MDN. I saw the
finished device (I have a dev version here with an old build) last week in
Oslo and was surprised that it worked that well. Panning the homescreen had no
jank and opening and closing apps was fairly fast.

[1]
[https://wiki.mozilla.org/FirefoxOS/Tarako](https://wiki.mozilla.org/FirefoxOS/Tarako)

~~~
bgirard
That's right. On the graphics side if you drop the resolution of the screen
you can drop a lot of memory and CPU power. Trading off features like pre-
rendering (display port) on the newer builds will save you more memory and CPU
cycles at the cost of waiting a bit of content to come in while scrolling.

Really it means that any time you fall off the well optimized paths you're
going to notice it more. It mean being more careful with how the app are
designed and which feature they use.

Of course content that really pushes the throughput like canvas games will be
slower. But in those cases the browser's rendering pipeline (layout, style,
visibility, display list) isn't running so you minimize the overhead there.

------
rdl
These will be so amazing as single-purpose secure devices. It might require
new firmware, so I'm not sure how this works.

(I'm increasingly convinced we need cheap and thus single-purpose devices for
security. Even if we theoretically could build multi-compartment systems, user
error often compromises them.)

------
ck2
If the html runs on the phone completely and doesn't require remote rendering
power, then such a device could be used as nifty self contained monitors for
websites.

Have a dozen servers?

Well you could have a phone display for each one.

But I guess at that scale you could just buy a 4k monitor and some kind of pc
to power it too.

------
Oculus
This is what Amazon should've done with their phone - make it stupid cheap.

------
lucb1e
I really don't like the WSJ. No paywall this time, but also no source links. I
want to see Mozilla's announcement (if any), specs from the phone, whether I
can buy it at all from abroad, etc. The article contains only one link: to the
paywalled version of the article.

Edit: took a few minutes but I've found the phone on Mozilla's website:
[https://www.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/os/devices/#intex_clou...](https://www.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/os/devices/#intex_cloudfx)

Also found their news blog which has nothing since February.

~~~
rhelmer
Here is the Mozilla blog on the subject:

[https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/08/25/first-firefox-os-
sm...](https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/08/25/first-firefox-os-smartphones-
available-in-india-this-week/)

The phone is for sale on snapdeal.com but I am not sure that it's available
outside of India right now.

~~~
lucb1e
Ah different blog then.

I would have wanted it to have GPS on board and it hasn't, so it's not for me
anyway. Still too bad it's not available outside of India. I don't think it
would take off like the Raspberry Pi but it would make a super cheap phone
with decent capabilities to tinker with, or just to use as a secondary when
you go to places where an expensive phone isn't safe. For this price you only
get feature phones here, nothing with a modern OS.

------
contingencies
"Cloud", sigh.

While this is a laudable product and price point, it is only a partial
success. What people don't realize is that in these markets internet is
prohibitively expensive for many people when accessed over cellular networks.
This means people have to use wifi, which is typically sporadic, shared and
unrealiable.

Cheap smartphones in the really developing parts of the world will be
revolutionary _precisely_ when they have real ad-hoc and mesh networking over
wifi and code that is built to take advantage: thus making distribution of
content and applications far more seemless for the sporadically poorly
connected masses, censorship impossible, news distribution democratic and non
state-issued digital currencies viable. Imagine if someone can close-enough
hack the identity problem (eg. using a signup delay, public/private keys, time
(proof of work), rough geolocation, and unique email address as a mix) then
political polls can be made this way.

I don't think this is a pipe dream, because people in a lot of these areas do
have shared, extremely pressing social concerns. Sexism (~50% of people),
hatred for the corrupt local institutions (~95% of people), that sort of
thing.

Think of the Chinese child being run over video effect... meets ad-hoc
virtually unmonitorable wifi meets irrefutable evidence of official
corruption. Look at for instance the status of women in parts of south India,
it's extremely oppressive. I think we're going to see riots, political change,
new social models emerge as a result of the _true_ application of these
devices... but not just yet, because the features are missing!

Apple and Google will probably never prioritize these features. Unfortunately,
Firefox OS has not prioritized them either.* This is saddening. The door is
open for motivated hacking!

* [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945047](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945047)

~~~
fabrice_d
> The door is open for motivated hacking!

Exactly! We are very interested in privacy, mesh networks, etc. (look for
instance at the tor integration done by a moz employee on his free time at
[https://github.com/OrFoxOS](https://github.com/OrFoxOS))

But we have limited resources, and to be successful and get enough leverage we
have to balance features that are market driven with our dream pipeline.
Ultimately this is a good thing, because a purely hacker driven phone would
probably not be the best one either ;)

------
e15ctr0n
If there's anyone looking to buy it or read up on the detailed specs, here's
the link:

[http://www.snapdeal.com/product/intex-cloud-
fx/1356760619](http://www.snapdeal.com/product/intex-cloud-fx/1356760619)

~~~
xur17
Do they deliver to the US?

edit: It doesn't look like they do, and it appears to be exclusive to
snapdeal.

~~~
aembleton
Wait a couple of weeks and then check on eBay.

------
parfe
So no way to get this phone in the USA? Is there a rationale? Mozilla doesn't
want consumers in developed economies buying it and complaining it doesn't
compete with an S5 of iphone?

~~~
xur17
Is there anything that keeps someone in India from buying a bunch, and
shipping them to the US for resale?

~~~
wtmt
Nothing apart from shipping costs (which may be equal to the price of the
phone) and handling payments (which includes trusting people). There's
probably a "Raspberry Pi like" market for such devices.

This device does seem deficient in (at least) two respects though - a 2MP
camera and the absence of 3G. So I don't see non-enthusiasts from other
countries really flocking to this one (or the other one from Spice launching
tomorrow).

P.S.: I'm in India and could send a few across, although I have no idea how
much it would cost to ship, the shipping duration, reliability of delivery,
insurance costs, etc. Overall, worldwide shipping from one country to another
at a personal level is somewhat painful.

------
anigbrowl
That price is in India. I wonder if they will sell it in the US and for how
much.

------
msh
hmm I think this kind of attack from the buttom is the only way for a new
player to get a chance against android (it is not going so well for tizen
among others who is expected to compete in the high end).

~~~
lovelearning
That made me wonder why Mozilla is even entering this field. I must say I find
their "mission"[1] quite noble:

 _We’re out to make a difference, not a profit. When you choose Firefox OS,
you’re helping build a brighter future for the Web and users everywhere._

And elsewhere...

 _Built entirely using HTML5 and other open Web standards, Firefox OS is free
from the rules and restrictions of existing proprietary platforms._

[1] [https://www.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/os/#mission](https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/os/#mission)

------
Yaggo
While the $33 is impressive price tag, just a reminder that you can buy a
"Chinese" Android tablet with twice as capable hardware (800x480 screen, 512
MB ram etc) for $50.

~~~
icebraining
Yeah, I got one for $45 with free shipping. And there actually some very cheap
dual-sim Android phones with 512MB. But it depends on build quality, long term
support (will the tablet receive OS updates? Unlikely), warranty, etc.

------
vamega
I'm in the US, and really want one or two of these!

------
personZ
_Using HTML5 enables the operating system to be very lean and it requires less
memory consumption._

This claim is deeply suspect.

~~~
fabrice_d
There's no reason for a stack that is (linux kernel + android hal + web
runtime) to require more resources than (linux kernel + android hal + dalvik
and a java toolkit).

Android is barely usable on these devices. Firefox OS run really well.

But of course I'm biaised, I spent a bit too much time on this project ;)

~~~
zanny
I think the point is more kernel + libc + binaries is the maximally leanest.
Putting _any_ interpreter on top of that is always a _huge_ overhead, be it
Dalvik or Gecko / Spidermonkey.

And worst of all (or best?) is that it seems we are moving towards this thing
where Mono and Qt are also on phones, meaning you have two parallel stacks -
one interpreter and one big ass shared library or another interpreter -
running at once.

~~~
azakai
It is more complicated than that, though.

Yes, while you can build a kernel+libc+binary code application that is pretty
lean, that means that your kernel plus graphics stack need to handle both that
type of application, as well as a web browser and related content.

In some cases, having to handle just one of those opens up optimization
opportunities, either in the kernel, libc, or the graphics stack. If you can
run only native binaries using a single graphics method, that might be overall
leanest, but every phone needs a browser these days. So the only other option
to have a single thing to optimize for is to make the only stack the web
stack.

Then, whatever is optimal for the browser in terms of handling GPU textures,
as one example, you can just do, because nothing else needs to run as well.

------
ck2
Resolution 320x480

In 2014 ? That doesn't seem useful.

~~~
burgers
Have you used a 320x480 phone recently? It is still very usable for web
browsing. It isn't super sharp, but in my experience there was
rarely(honestly, I can't remember one but there likely was some) a time where
the resolution prevented me from being able to read something.

------
LukeB_UK
Unfortunately I think Apple may have a complaint with regards to the design.

