
How Iceland got teens to say no to drugs (2017) - amelius
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/teens-drugs-iceland/513668/
======
anotheryou
if i remember the article correctly:

\- no unstructured free time

\- always in groups that are not just your friends

\- always supervised

If your interests are aligned and you fit in with the average teens it might
be great. If you need structure in your life to stay on track maybe too. But
want to find yourself, becoming an independent adult and have nerdy interests
it's probably hell.

I'm glad I built tree houses, skipped a night of sleep and cycled in to the
sunrise, learned to program and do art (both as an auto-didactic. nothing I'm
proud of, but certainly something that suits me so much better than fixed-
learning-speed group courses. By definition those are too fast for half, to
slow for the rest or to slow for everyone but the slowest). Of course I came
across a joint, alcoholics and other broken people while doing so, but that's
alright, too.

~~~
sli
Referring to people as broken seems like a wholly unnecessary moral judgement
against an awful lot people you've never met.

~~~
anotheryou
I could have substituted it for "addicts". Somehow "broken" rang more true to
me. The addiction is just the symptom, something underlying went (in my eyes)
wrong.

Maybe "broken" sounds harsh, but I think they'd even agree.

And as marcusverus writes: yes, I got to know them, some where even my
friends.

~~~
d4mi3n
I'd avoid using this terminology with people who are hurting. The feeling of
being "broken" tends to reinforce negative thoughts.

A term I've heard and prefer is "suffering" or "in pain". Addicts suffer from
their addiction and the environment that led them to that addiction.

~~~
dahauns
TBH, I find those terms worse. And the more I think about it, infuriatingly
so. (So I apologize in advance for the following cynical rant :) ).

Sure, they sound superficially more compassionate.

But in reality they are defeatist, victimizing, agency-removing euphemisms
that do a wonderful job of clouding the underlying issues.

If you are that far into problems as described by various posters in this
thread, pain and suffering are symptoms, and if that's all you're looking at,
you're only going to treat those. (Ain't drugs nice?)

Realizing you're "broken" is the first step towards identifying what exactly
it is that's broken - and towards any further steps actually fixing it. (And
yes, your environment and your relationship with it often is the part that's
broken, too).

And it's not only the self-image I'm talking about - I'm definitely not in the
"they can only help themselves" camp. But it's oh so much more convenient to
go for the symptoms (or switch the channel) when you're looking at people "in
pain"...

~~~
anotheryou
Yes, pain actually is even gone as long until long-term side-effects of
addiction kick in. Some mild addictions are even sustainable for quite a
while.

Taking the argument to the mild side of the extreme I wonder if there are even
cases where it's the best choice. I could totally endorse binge-watching TV
series for a few weeks after a breakup. Might be a coping strategy that just
does its job :).

------
spodek
> _State funding was increased for organized sport, music, art, dance and
> other clubs, to give kids alternative ways to feel part of a group, and to
> feel good, rather than through using alcohol and drugs, and kids from low-
> income families received help to take part._

By contrast, how to create America today: reduce recess, remove athletics,
reduce participation in arts, teach to the test, pave over green space,
fund/segregate schools by property value, avoid project-based learning.

------
lancebeet
I think most would agree that prioritizing safety over freedom for children
and adolescents is sometimes justified, but I find it sad that a curfew for
individuals as old as 16 (and an even stricter one for adolescents under 13)
can be celebrated the way it is in this article, especially when other
countries have had a comparable reduction in adolescent alcohol consumption
without implementing such a curfew. It makes me appreciate all the memories I
have of staying out late in my own childhood and adolescence (without drinking
or doing any drugs).

~~~
throwaway_pdp09
You make a good point. Also I don't like the righteous attitude of the
article. That drugs can be safely used (not abused) seems omitted. 'tis about
teens though so I wouldn't want them near the stuff, but aren't drugs part of
growing up?

“Why not orchestrate a social movement around natural highs: around people
getting high on their own brain chemistry—because it seems obvious to me that
people want to change their consciousness—without the deleterious effects of
drugs?”

If you want an answer to why not, because drugs are not intrinsically bad and
can give you more than a life without drugs IMO. Or they can destroy you, I
grant.

“We learned through the studies that we need to create circumstances in which
kids can lead healthy lives, and they do not need to use substances, because
life is fun, and they have plenty to do—and they are supported by parents who
will spend time with them.”

'Because they have plenty to do' Hmm - I did spend part of my childhood on
some crappy estates and there wasn't things to do, and no money to do it. And
you didn't much want to go outside because it didn't feel safe. It wasn't.
'and they are supported by parents' \- another presupposition that parents are
good and nurturing. Not always. Perhaps in a rich and wise society you can
mostly make this possible though.

I like their way of trying to take the pressure off kids so as to reduce the
"rat park" effect
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park))
and I think it's great. Kids don't develop properly in a pressure cooker.
Overall, they're doing the right thing. Just don't overdo it.

~~~
frosted-flakes
FYI, throwaway accounts are highly discouraged on HN.

~~~
throwaway_pdp09
If I'd been a bit more awake I'd have called it 'anon' rather than throwaway
(for privacy's sake), but I take your point and the reasoning behind it.

Of greater import, if you have something to say about my post, disagreement
included of course, I'm happy to listen.

~~~
frosted-flakes
Yeah, apologies for that. I just went off the name and didn't click through to
your profile and see that you're an established user. I think dang or sctb can
change it for you, if you email them.

You're comment was already downvoted before I saw it, by the way.

~~~
throwaway_pdp09
No problem, no worries. I never assumed you were the downvoter either.

------
Dumblydorr
This policy may have had a secondary benefit: soccer and sports prowess. We
saw in the last world cup that Iceland performed quite well in a tough first
stage group against Argentina, Nigeria, and the eventual runners up Croatia.

Iceland was my team since they made it in and USA, with a population 600 times
bigger, did not. This prowess in sport was then attributed to their massive
buildout of soccer pitches in every area, coaches for ages 5-10 to develop
fundamentals, etc.

There is a lot of potential in children, we can help them shine if we devote
the resources! The USA has not done this, sadly most of the extracurricular
funding is charity or is rich people giving their kids more chances to pad
resumes for college apps.

~~~
loeg
USA won the last world cup.

~~~
ralfd
No the real one. If I enter “last World Cup” into a private browser window
google shows me the result of the tournament people really care about, which
was won by France.

------
einpoklum
> “Why not orchestrate a social movement around natural highs: around people
> getting high on their own brain chemistry etc.?"

1\. Governments, especially in the US, dislike spending large amounts on the
well-being of the masses, especially when there's little immediate political
benefit. In particular, they are often lobbied heavily to avoid doing so.

2\. In states like the US, there is some collusion between the government
(especially parts of the intelligence services and the military) and drug
growers, traffickers, and marketers - especially in foreign countries like
Columbia and Afghanistan but probably also domestically.

~~~
Shared404
> 2\. In states like the US, there is some collusion between the government
> (especially parts of the intelligence services and the military) and drug
> growers, traffickers, and marketers - especially in foreign countries like
> Columbia and Afghanistan but _probably also domestically_. (Emphasis mine)

But what about the completely legit war on drugs? I thought the government was
supposed to be protecting us from all the scary people bringing drugs into our
peaceful country.

/s

------
pmoriarty
It's currently a minority position, but there is an argument to be made that
constructive use of psychedelics by children with their parents can be
beneficial, for various reasons (such as forging a stronger bond between
parent and child, and fostering empathy by using empathogens like MDMA, to
revealing the world of the sacred to the child through a mystical experience,
and so on).

Search around the web for "psychedelic parenting" to find advocates of this
approach.

I expect that as the so-called Psychedelic Renaissance blossoms, and
psychedelics become more widely accepted in mainstream society, this minority
position will become less of a minority position.

It is not unimaginable that some day there may once again be society-wide
initiation ceremonies and rites of passage for children involving psychedelics
used as sacraments, maybe not unlike what Aldous Huxley envisioned in his book
_Island_ , and what traditional societies have done in ages past and some
continue to do even now.

------
edwardwatson
Iceland is small with no land borders, making it less profitable and more
difficult to sell drugs there. Similarly, alcohol is incredibly highly taxed
there, perhaps more than any other country outside Scandinavia. Very different
conditions to e.g. the UK so it's not clear any of these initiatives would be
portable to other societies.

------
ulzeraj
I was in Dalvik back in early 2015. As soon as I’ve arrived at the town and
parked the car I was approached by two kids in bicicleta aged no more than 15
and they’ve tried to sell me weed.

~~~
demosito666
Could be that nobody just cares much about weed, aiming to reduce consumption
of more harmful stuff like heroin, alcohol or tobacco.

------
fblp
As a blanket of mental health issues arise during the pandemic. This is a
reminder of how communities can enable lasting social change.

------
thom
Of course, other approaches are available. For example where I live in the UK,
what we've done is defund youth services by about 80% over the last ten years
due to austerity, leading to increases in gang membership and knife crime.
We've then blamed this almost entirely on immigrants, which has in turn led to
us voting to demolish whatever's left of our economy once the pandemic has had
its way with us.

~~~
chroem-
As someone in the US, it's amusing to hear the phrase "knife crime" as a major
source of violence.

~~~
dang
" _Eschew flamebait. Don 't introduce flamewar topics unless you have
something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic
tangents._"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
chroem-
I understand where you're coming from, but thus far my post does not seem to
be generating a lot of controversy.

~~~
dang
There's variance, but the general effect is predictable, and that's what we
have to moderate for.

[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22expected%20value%22&sort=byDate&type=comment)

~~~
chroem-
Dang, I thought we had discussed this: moderating based the mere risk of
controversy is how echo chambers form. Doesn't this go against HN's guidelines
of fostering interesting, civil discussion?

~~~
dang
The high-order bit is predictability. Going from "knife crime" to "guns in the
U.S." is a highly predictable move, guaranteed (in the general case) to lead
to tedious, repetitive discussion. The art of interesting threads requires
learning to abstain from reflexive, predictable moves. That's one of the
biggest things we've learned in over a decade of operating this place.

[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20curiosity%20repetition&sort=byDate&type=comment)

[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment)

[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20reflective%20reflex&sort=byDate&type=comment)

------
w-j-w
I find this article interesting because I've heard others worry that the
demise of unstructured time for children might be doing other types of damage.

------
Ericson2314
> Harvey Milkman

Heh what a name

~~~
jacquesm
People don't get to choose their names.

~~~
Ericson2314
It's just rare to see a name which has as a prefix another famous name.

