
Israel’s ‘Iron Dome’ changes the face of battle - sep
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israels-iron-dome-changes-the-face-of-battle/2014/07/10/578c779e-0868-11e4-8615-4eddc1f1cffa_story.html
======
reuven
As a programmer and person in high tech, I'm in awe of the Iron Dome. The
speed with which it has to make decisions, and with which it does so, and the
number of rockets that it has knocked out the sky, demonstrate what an amazing
piece of technology this is. I've been programming for a long time, but still
can't begin to imagine the complexity of the calculations that these systems
are doing, and how well they've managed to pull it off.

As an Israeli citizen whose home is in the range of the Hamas rockets, it's
hugely comforting to know that this technology has been deployed. I'll be
teaching a Python class in Tel Aviv tomorrow, and while I can basically expect
that Hamas will be sending a bunch of rockets aiming to kill me (or anyone
else they can), I'm happy to know that our interruptions will likely be
annoying and frustrating, rather than lethal.

As an Israeli citizen who doesn't want to see our foot soldiers in Gaza (for a
very large number of reasons), I'm also happy that Iron Dome gives our
government time before sending them in.

The situation with Gaza, and with the Palestinians, is a pretty bad one,
although I remain optimistic over the long term. For now, though, anything
that reduces the threat of rockets that Hamas is sending at us strikes me as a
good thing.

~~~
jpeavy1
Perhaps you should re-watch the Star Trek episode A Taste of Armageddon
wherein a country engages in a sanitized war and the effect that has on their
ability to find real, sustainable, long-term solutions.

~~~
reuven
An interesting point, even if that episode depicts something quite different
from our current situation. I don't think that HN is quite the place for such
a discussion; I'd be happy to take it offline, and explain my viewpoint as
well as hear yours.

Believe me, I have a huge amount of criticism for the current Israeli
government. I voted for opposition parties. I disagree with a large number of
their policies, most of which have nothing to do with the Palestinians.

But I have nothing but praise for a government policy that results in fewer
civilian deaths. Those might have long-range, unexpected effects, but less
death is a good thing, I'd like to think.

Indeed, I would encourage all governments -- including that of Hamas in Gaza,
which isn't exactly an enlightened democracy -- to spend time and money on
ways to protect their people, and avoid death, injury, and destruction.

Given that Hamas has a stated policy of killing as many Israeli civilians as
they possibly can, and that they have worked to achieve that goal to the
greatest possible degree, I can only express delight and gratitude that Iron
Dome exists, and that it is effective.

------
jds375
The software design is particularly interesting. I recommend this article:
"Typical command-and-control software for military gear is highly customized
and hard to modify. The key to MPrest’s success, Barak says, is that the
command-and-control software is simple and modular, so customers can quickly
adapt it without reprogramming. The Israeli army was able to recalibrate Iron
Dome batteries almost immediately, without a software rewrite, when Hamas
fighters began to fire longer-range missiles.[1]"

[1] - [http://mobile.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-21/how-to-
st...](http://mobile.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-21/how-to-stop-
missiles-the-company-behind-israels-iron-dome)

~~~
paletoy
From the article: "Microsoft’s Windows and .NET architecture make up the base
layer of the system .. The same basic technology is being used for civilian
purposes, including for a vehicle fleet management system"

This raises two questions:

1\. What is the commonality between missile defense and fleet management ?

2\. How does a system that is most likely real-time run on windows/.net ?

~~~
noir_lord
I would imagine that .Net is used on the control and targetting systems on the
launcher I can't imagine they are running a .Net implementation on the actual
missiles computer.

~~~
paletoy
True. But still , doesn't it need rapid, guaranteed response times?

------
mark_l_watson
Wow, what an unbalanced article! No mention of casualties on the other side.
Disgusting one-sided coverage. I am really disappointed in the Washington
Post. Bad job. I find that Israeli news sources like Haaretz are more balanced
re: the middle east than the US news is - strange. Al Jazeera is another
reasonable source for middle east news. Forget about US news coverage of the
middle east.

As an American, I find I often feel the need to use something like
news.google.com to find articles on any given story from many countries around
the world to get a more balanced view. This is a practice that I have
introduced to several friends and family members, and once they make the
little bit of effort to look at world wide coverage they understand my
complaint about the US news industry.

In our modern world, I think that it is at least ill-advised, if not
dangerous, to live in a _bubble_ and not read many opposing opinions on
important events.

~~~
yazaddaruvala
So I agree one sided articles are generally very bad in regard to difficult
situations like this. But in my opinion that is because they try to illicit
sympathy for that particular side. However, in this case.. the post seemed to
be about a new cool technology.

Perhaps it was just me but at the end of this article I felt drawn to neither
side. The only thoughts I had on the matter were, "Man that is cool. Its too
bad people have to be in harms way for such technology to get funding, but
thanks for pioneering the simplest versions of the tech we need to stop
asteroids".

~~~
ibisum
>However, in this case.. the post seemed to be about a new cool technology.

So the article is little more than a straw man to divert from the real
atrocities being committed by the Israelis' in Gaza today. And that is
entirely the point of the OP - that this article is little more than a
technocratic diversion to feed the fetish of a homogenous target group, rather
than real reporting on the issue.

~~~
hn_politics145
Why is everything an Israeli conspiracy?

~~~
CamperBob2
Because if this stuff were happening anywhere else, people in the Western
world would be genuinely upset about it.

~~~
omonra
Good point - I want to know how long Washington or London would wait before
wiping off whichever opponent was sending missiles at them.

~~~
ibisum
Depends if Washington or London were facing a humanitarian crisis of epic
proportions on account of repressive blockades from a neighbor. I'm quite sure
Washington or London would be sending missiles towards any country promoting
invasion, destruction of hospitals, repression of the general population ..

------
larrys
Of note:

"“The Iron Dome system and its impressive success thus far have had a
strategic impact on managing the campaign. It gives us wide options,” said
Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon. “Having said that, we cannot become
complacent.”"

Reminds me of when I first read many years about the potential paradox of
using a firewall and security - that it also meant you couldn't ignore
individual security settings (turning off ports and services) on machines
behind the firewall assuming that the first line of defense was sufficient.

~~~
KMag
How is that a paradox?[1] I fail to see the contradiction in putting up a
defense and yet remaining cautious. Did you instead mean that it is ironic? I
don't find it ironic or paradoxical, but I think irony is closer to the word
you're looking for.

Taking one precaution and yet remaining cautious is rather common. We wear
seat belts, yet drive carefully. We practice good hygiene, and yet get
vaccinations, etc.

[1][http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox)

~~~
larrys
I don't know but I think _it is_ a paradox.

Here is why:

You put up a firewall to make you secure. So you should be secure. But by
putting up a firewall you fail to secure something else or you are lax in
another area of security. Because you think "it's been take care of. So I see
it as a paradox. Although it could be ironic if someone put up a firewall but
then was hacked because of something they didn't do thinking they didn't need
it if they had a firewall. That would be an irony.

------
denom
The "Iron Dome" will not change the current situation in a way that, say,
political negotiation will. It's really frustrating to watch the same process
play itself out. Throw a few more bombs in, stir the ashes (so to say) and
repeat in 2 years. Is the ongoing plan to degrade the operational capacity of
Hamas _just so_ that they cannot seriously threaten? Does the Iron Dome entail
perpetual open warfare?

It's clear that Israel is doubling down on automation and military technology
so that the war can grind on from an increasingly safe distance. They have the
tiger by the tail and they cannot let go! So, lock it in the closet, behind
domes and fences, etc.

I would _hate_ being stuck in Gaza right now. Can you imagine? What a shit-
show. There is no "dome" there, naturally. The bombs come flying in with ease.
And it seems like 50/50 that there will be a ground invasion. Supposedly Egypt
has the tunnels to Gaza sealed. Maybe Israel thinks this is the time to
completely smash Hamas. All this is something to think about while you sit in
a basement, for days.

~~~
noir_lord
This is pretty close to my summation to my gf the other evening

"Every few years Hamas launches rockets at Israel, Israel then uses the
opportunity to smash the crap out of Hamas for a few days while "international
concern" grows, at a certain point Israel stops the attacks, the international
community claims a victory and Hamas gets a bloody nose, nothing changes and
it all happens again in 2-3 years"

I suspect sometimes I'm too cynical..then I read the news.

~~~
adamors
> Hamas gets a bloody nose

Is Hamas even a target anymore? In 4 days Operation Protective Edge took the
life of 114 people, 88 of which were non combatant civilians [1]. They even
managed to destroy a centre for disabled people. [2] That's a quite a big
margin of error for one of the most advanced armies on the planet.

[1] [http://www.sunherald.com/2014/07/11/5693711/gaza-death-
toll-...](http://www.sunherald.com/2014/07/11/5693711/gaza-death-toll-climbs-
as-israeli.html)

[2] [http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/12/disabled-
palest...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/12/disabled-palestinians-
unable-escape-israeli-air-strike)

~~~
philwelch
What people never mention is that they only target the sites that rockets get
launched from. It's a cheap propaganda win for Hamas to launch rockets from
football stadiums and hospitals.

------
bhouston
This scenario, were the population in control has nearly magical technology
compared to the nearly useless technology available to those under occupation,
reads to me like a dystopian future that is usually written about in science
fiction.

I wish the scenario playing out here was a blip in history one rather than one
that festers for decade, after decade, after decade without significant
positive change.

------
ChuckMcM
From a regional warfare perspective the relative success of Iron Dome
mitigates the use of stand off offensive technologies. This forces the
combatants to develop alternative delivery strategies. When there is a lack of
control on the ground, IEDs and operator delivered munitions seem to be the
next step, but that works poorly when there is a functioning police/local
military presence.

Given the constraints, I suspect the next standoff weaponry will become drone
based. Something flying fast enough and high enough to be immune to small arms
fire, but low enough to keep out of the kill zone of anti-air and anti-missile
defense.

------
amit_m
Video summary of the Iron Dome system: [http://www.businessinsider.com/how-
iron-dome-works-video-201...](http://www.businessinsider.com/how-iron-dome-
works-video-2014-7)

The only part which sounds odd is the "human factor" claim near the end. AFAIK
the system is fully autonomous once deployed and does not require a human to
decide whether or not to launch an interceptor missile.

------
gcb0
the oppressed people on the other side now engage in a financial war. for the
price they would build one rocket with explosive payload, now they can build
some 4 dummy ones. making the invading state pay 20k x3 more than before.
while also recruiting more people, who would be averse to the violence before.

~~~
nardi
A long-range rocket without a payload is probably still pretty expensive.

Edit: Let me rephrase—"probably not much cheaper."

~~~
blhack
Not really. These are improvised rockets made of steel pipes and welded sheet
metal fins. The propellant is fertilizer (smuggled from Egypt, usually), and
sugar.

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/graveyard-shift-
fo...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/graveyard-shift-for-islamic-
jihad-a-visit-to-a-gaza-rocket-factory-a-531578.html)

------
Naushad
Building defense at the cost of numerous innocent lives out there in
Palestine. Collateral Damage is a means to achieve this. What i find more
interesting is that Israel is using Hamas as a cover to clean-up the complete
Palestine state. It would have been justified if the casualties were adults,
real Hamas members and not kids, women.

------
ende
If a smaller kid is throwing punches at you but you are able to avoid being
hit by holding him at arms length, is it acceptable to throw punches with the
other arm?

~~~
adventured
If a smaller adult is swinging a knife at you, and you're able to mostly avoid
being hit by the knife by holding him at arms length, is it acceptable to
respond with force to disarm the knife-wielding lunatic?

Yep.

~~~
akie
You're conveniently ignoring motives here. If the lunatic adult is wielding a
knife because (he claims that) you took his house and land and started living
in it and don't want to leave, then do you still think it's acceptable to hit
him? It seems to me that you're oversimplifying the situation. Nothing is
black and white, and certainly not the Israel-Palestina conflict.

~~~
icebraining
I think ende was also oversimplifying the situation, though.

------
lutorm
I'm impressed by how good of a job Israel does at painting itself as the
_victim_ despite being the perpetuator of 50 years of ongoing occupation.

~~~
hn_politics145
The 'occupation' of course being the existence of Israel.

~~~
forgotAgain
Nice try but no sale. The occupation being the land taken by Israel in the
1967 war.

~~~
dngr7512
what about the land stolen from the Indians in america? why not give their
land back??

Every country in the world is the making of occupation, if you want your land
back, don't shoot rockets, that simple.

~~~
waps
You gotta admire the utter delusion of people using the "give it back"
argument. Islam is a religion that spread through military conquest and
massacres. There is no such thing as a square meter on this planet where islam
spread peacefully.

So can we please give back all the land ? Of course, there would be nowhere
for muslims to live at all, least of all Palestina. It was not arab land, it
was not muslim land. Nor was Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, or Egypt. Can we
give back the land, kick out everybody who currently lives there.

The truth is as sad as it is obvious : nobody is clamoring for the land to be
given back because ... they're all dead. Egypt was mined for "black gold"
(slaves for muslims). Anything south of the delta was black in ancient times.
Carthago (Tunisia) was filled with black people. Mined to death. Palestine, in
ancient times, was filled with Jews (as everybody knows I guess), and so was
Saudi Arabia. Before that ... we don't really have any data, but given the
location of the region, I would imagine it changed hands many times. Iraq was
a nation of Indians, not arabs.

I find it hard to believe people using arguments like that can be reasoned
with at all. The utter absurdity of it.

