
As More Devices Board Planes, Travelers Are Playing with Fire - kawera
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/business/as-more-devices-board-planes-travelers-are-playing-with-fire.html?pagewanted=all
======
kawsper
RC enthusiasts use LiPo batteries, which can cause a lot of damage if
mishandled and damaged, you can see a video here where a famous quadcopter
pilot shows how many batteries he carries for a day of flying [0].

These batteries go into your carry-on luggage and needs to be protected from
damage and short circuit.

Some info on why batteries shouldn't be in the cargo hold "Halon 1301, the
suppression agent found in Class C cargo compartments, is ineffective in
controlling a lithium metal cell fire." [1]

Here is the FAA requirements:

\- LiPo batteries installed in a device are ok in either checked or carry-on
luggage.

\- An unlimited number of spare (uninstalled) LiPo batteries with a rating of
up to 100 WHr may be carried, but only in carry-on baggage.

\- With airline approval, up to 2 LiPo batteries with ratings between 100 and
160 WHr may be carried, but only in carry-on luggage.

\- LiPo batteries larger than 160 WHr are not allowed.

It seems really strange you can travel with these things, I can't imagine the
damage that will happen if a bag of batteries happens to blow up.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCtneglrE8I&t=278](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCtneglrE8I&t=278)

[1]
[http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_ope...](http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/safo/all_safos/media/2010/safo10017.pdf﻿)

~~~
snovv_crash
Just FYI, LiPo batteries aren't lithium-metal, they are lithium-ion. They have
different failure mechanisms.

The fire in a LiPo is cause by the electrolyte being too hot due to an
internal short-circuit and thus igniting, not because lithium is reacting with
water as a lithium-metal battery does. LiPo is thus safer than lithium-metal,
since a leak to the environment doesn't necessarily result in a fire. Even
safer are LiFePO4, which are as safe as NiMh, although their energy density is
slightly lower than LiPo.

Lithium-metal is mostly used for coin cells, eg for watches.

------
FabHK
The Aviation Herald lists a few incidences with batteries:

[http://avherald.com/h?search_term=batter&opt=0&dosearch=1&se...](http://avherald.com/h?search_term=batter&opt=0&dosearch=1&search.x=0&search.y=0)

(as I mentioned in the thread "FAA Urges Passengers to Not Use Samsung Galaxy
Note 7 on Planes",
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12459335](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12459335)
)

------
smpetrey
Back in college I worked as a iOS and Mac technician at a Apple Store Genius
Bar. First couple of months working there I noticed we had a yellow safe under
our bench. My supervisors informed me the safe was for swollen batteries, hot
iPhones or anything that could explode or catch fire.

Needless to say I only ever experienced one dangerously swollen battery on a
MacBook. Food for thought.

~~~
Raphmedia
I recently bought a Macbook Air that had a battery so swollen that the entire
laptop was convex and the lit couldn't even close. I'm talking a two inch
bulge.

What's amazing is that nothing broke and changing the battery allowed the
aluminium to bend back and you can't even tell that the laptop looked like
that.

The person that had it before me was actually using the laptop with the
swollen battery until it got so bad some of the keys were getting pressed from
under. That person could have easily used the laptop in question in a plane.

------
anotheryou
What about a laptop sized ashtray / metal bin with a loose lid and some small
opening for a fire extinguisher? In the first two minutes it should already be
noticed and still be scoopable. Well, unless it's still in a bag. How well do
fire extinguishing blankets work in the cluttered cabin? What is currently the
protocol?

~~~
saintwind
If it ain't broke, don't fix it; printed novels don't contain lithium ion
batteries.

Read on a flight, save a life!

~~~
anotheryou
or to be more modest: a capacity limit so you can take your phone, but not
your tablet.

~~~
ghaff
And, yet, a number of airlines (such as United) are introducing entertainment
systems whereby they stream content to your own device.

More fundamentally, do you suggest that people travel without tablets or
laptops? Never going to happen. And it's better to have the batteries in the
cabin than in the hold.

~~~
icebraining
_it 's better to have the batteries in the cabin than in the hold._

Why? Seems like you could have more effective fire-extinguishing methods in
the hold (replacing oxygen with an inert gas, for example).

~~~
aembleton
I don't think the hold is pressurised, and so there would be very little
oxygen there.

~~~
ghaff
Cargo holds are typically pressurized. Pressurizing forward of the aft
pressure bulkhead doesn't really add significantly to the structural
requirements of an aircraft as I understand it. Furthermore (in addition to
pets) you'd probably see lots of leaking and otherwise damaged contents of
luggage/cargo if the hold were unpressurized.

~~~
wiredfool
More than that, the most efficient pressure vessel is a circular section
(tension only). Making the floor of the passenger cabin the pressure vessel
would be very heavy, as it would have to carry the load in bending.

------
leetrout
I don't think that's a fair test if that photo is accurate. Those seats are
not setup in a normal "cattle car" configuration. That looks like a luxurious
40+ inches of seat pitch compared to the normal 30.

I would expect there to be the potential for a much faster spreading fire with
a realistic seating configuration.

~~~
brudgers
In all probability, there are stringent requirements for flame spread, smoke
developed, and the creation of toxic gasses for airline seats similar to those
discussed for passenger trains here:

[http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/passenger-safety-
fla...](http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/passenger-safety-flame-smoke-
toxicity-control)

------
paulhart
The NYT article is (slightly) out of date - the carrier I was flying with last
night made a point of stating the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 could not be used at
any time during the flight.

~~~
alistairSH
We received the same warning on both outbound and return legs of an Aer Lingus
flight from IAD to EDI. Not sure how they would ever enforce it, beyond the
honor system, or expecting other passengers to notice and report misuse.

------
andrewclunn
I'll just leave this here:

[https://youtu.be/eHooBjxmoXQ](https://youtu.be/eHooBjxmoXQ)

------
alfiedotwtf
I think the biggest elephant in the room is that you're allowed to bring (as
hand carry) 3 liters of liquid fuel in glass containers on international
flights... as long as you purchased said flammable liquid in a duty free store

~~~
ghshephard
Can you purchase overproof liquor in the duty free store?

~~~
alfiedotwtf
I looked for 151 but couldn't find it at the airport duty free store. I'm sure
it's available at external duty free stores though :(

~~~
Texasian
In the US, at least, you aren't allowed to carry any liquid (besides non-
essential medications, baby formula) in containers larger than 3oz through
security regardless of if its duty free.

I had no idea that duty free stores existed outside of airports, to be honest.

