
Boeing CEO Vows to Beat Musk to Mars - allenleein
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-04/boeing-ceo-vows-to-beat-musk-to-mars-as-new-space-race-beckons
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traviswingo
All competition and politics aside, isn't this what Musk was ultimately trying
to achieve? Turning this into a race to be the first one to put humans on Mars
ultimately means we're jumpstarting the idea of a multi planetary species,
even if it's done for the sake of competition.

~~~
hiddenkrypt
Exactly my thoughts. The headline "Boeing vows to beat Musk to Mars" literally
translates to "Elon Musk wins". His whole goal in founding SpaceX was to
foster competition in the stagnant space vehicle industry, just like the
Tesla's purpose was to get other auto manufacturers to work on electric
vehicles (and to convince consumers that EV doesn't mean it has to suck).

~~~
imagist
Where my cynics at?

Are we really so naive that we're just parroting whatever Musk's PR team says?
Musk isn't doing this to further the human race, he's doing it to make money.

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solotronics
I don't deny he has done well but I there are a few factors to consider

1\. I would much rather Musk become rich by furthering humanity than someone
making the next cat picture app

2\. The companies are tackling some of the hardest problems and I think purely
to make money he would have picked other easier problems to solve.

3\. It is shortsighted to not embrace anyone pushing and striving for the
important goals for humanity. Energy, transportation, space travel.

~~~
imagist
> 1\. I would much rather Musk become rich by furthering humanity than someone
> making the next cat picture app

Agreed.

> 2\. The companies are tackling some of the hardest problems and I think
> purely to make money he would have picked other easier problems to solve.

That's not necessarily true. Remember that Musk started with $165 million from
sale of shares of PayPal when it was bought by eBay, so he could afford to
wait a while for his companies to take off. When you have a large amount of
money to invest and you're young, it makes sense to invest in things with a
high up-front cost and long wait before you get a payoff--most companies
aren't willing to take a risk on that kind of investment, and once it pays
off, you own something with little competition and a long head start on your
competitors.

And, incidentally, it puts Musk in the position of Silicon Valley's golden boy
--which has numerous business advantages.

> 3\. It is shortsighted to not embrace anyone pushing and striving for the
> important goals for humanity. Energy, transportation, space travel.

I agree, but we shouldn't do that naively. If we see Musk as being inherently
good instead of as who he is, someone trying to make money, we'll be more
likely to compromise our ethics because we view him as good.

Imagine a future where SpaceX sets up mines on the moon. This creates a
situation where SpaceX has unprecedented control over a subset of its
employees--they literally will die without the company's resources, because
there aren't other options on the moon. If we naively trust Musk's intentions,
we might let this happen without regulation and only add regulation after
abuses for profit are discovered--which may be decades too late for the
victims of the abuse. But if we realize that Musk is not ethically different
from any other CEO, we will have the wisdom to preempt these kinds of problems
with oversight.

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spdustin
Sure, they could beat Musk to Mars if they succeed in lobbying congress to
enact laws forcing SpaceX' accidents to be investigated by the FAA. ULA is
railing over losing their exclusive USAF launch contracts and shouting down
SpaceX whenever they can, it seems. How about they put their (considerable,
federal) money where their mouth is and get us to Mars.

~~~
Alupis
What I'm interested to know, is what's in it for both companies - besides
notoriety?

It's going to cost billions to reach Mars, and more billions to develop things
to a "good enough" point to actually make the round trip feasible - and so
far, at least to my knowledge, we've found nothing of enough value to make
trips there economically viable for a for-profit corporation.

Sure, they'll get government contracts, but that doesn't pay for the first
trip there (which appears will be entirely on their own/investors dime).

There aren't massive gold or platinum deposits we've found - and even if there
were, surely it would be difficult to extract and recover due to mass.

I firmly believe Musk is totally willing to bankrupt his company (and himself)
to achieve his goal of landing on Mars, but are his investors? What about
Boeing and Lockheed Martin (ULA)?

At least with a government landing on Mars, you can expect science to be
conducted. What does a for-profit company do there, when there's not much to
make a profit from?

What's the end-game here? We land and say "we did it!"... then what?

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undersuit
After they have conclusively proven the success of their large launcher with
countless launches to get all the equipment and supplies in orbit and the
SpaceX mission leaves for Mars what is SpaceX going to do? Sit on it's laurels
and wait for the mission to reach Mars? Or maybe allow anyone to launch
massive payloads into space on a very well proven platform.

If SpaceX can show they are have a very capable platform for heavy lifting
before anyone else they can retain that position for a long time. Moon bases,
Hubble replacements, long term space stations all need heavy launch
capabilities. SpaceX wants to sell them their premier service.

~~~
Alupis
That's an interesting angle I hadn't considered.

Although, wouldn't building a moon base first make more sense? Walk before you
can run, sort of thing? Or even Venus, since it's closer.

~~~
undersuit
You'd have to convince Elon Musk. Me, I'd go large geosynchronous space
station first.

~~~
neuromancer2701
Go get a massive asteroid and build a facility out at L1 Lagrange point.

~~~
effie
L1,L2,L3 are unstable. Better build it at L4 or L5, which are stable.

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sobinator
I was at the event, and this 'vow' didn't really come off as a vow to beat
Musk.

We all know about Musk, but Muildenburg is someone worth checking out. His
story is about as classic Americana as it gets. Raised in the midwest. Parents
and grandparents were farmers. Trained as an engineer and then went to work
for Boeing right out of school... I think he said what he said because he was
just trying to share the room's enthusiasm to do big things with our future.
Besides, he just might be right, so it might be worth taking a look at him.

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krschultz
Competition is a wonderful thing.

~~~
fruktstav
How can you say that? Cooperation is a wonderful thing. Why is it a good thing
that two separate entities, with the exact same goal, are keeping secrets from
each other and inhibit the development towards that goal with the only reason
being ownership and the ability to withold these technologies from the public?
I mean, I get that regular zombies would say that competition is good - but a
programmer? Haven't you heard about open source? Geez..

~~~
jeeeeefff
Competition keeps corporations consumer-centric due to the need to be the best
available option. Competition creates different perspectives and solutions due
to the need to innovate to survive. Competition drives people to do their
best, due to human nature.

~~~
fruktstav
Oh, yeah. Corporations are so consumer-centric. Especially Boeing who's been
grinding down our atmosphere for decades.

Competition creates one sole perspective: make more money than the others.
This gives companies no swinging room to be 'good' instead of profitable.
Also, corporations are completely void of democracy and shouldn't be legal.

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zardo
Sounds like he's just saying SpaceX will fail, and NASA will go on the SLS.
Bloomberg is trying to manufacture a story that isn't there.

~~~
transfire
My worry is that they are going to make sure SpaceX fails.

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forgetsusername
Who is "they" and how will they "make" SpaceX fail? Boeing has been in the
space business for a long time. Why is the news only interesting when it
involves an SV darling?

Oh, the conspiracies....

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arcaster
Seems like this is a side-effect Musk intended for. Competition of this kind
is always positive.

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jonlawlor
Musk is a savvy businessman before anything else. He would prefer to not have
competition.

~~~
faramarz
Not true as exemplified by his Tesla company releasing the patents to their
technology.

He knows he can't do it alone. He's elevating the bar for everybody.

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suprgeek
Lets hope that it is a promise for innovation and not a threat of dirty
tricks. people should not be declaring it as some kind of "Musk victory".
These guys do not play fair and have deep pockets.

You can beat Musk to Mars one of two ways:

1) You innovate better/faster than SpaceX and get there sooner

2) You slow down SpaceX by legal/ political/other means until your company can
get a lead.

Given all the dirty tricks[1],[2] & possibly [3] that ULA (50-50 partnership
Boeing & Lockheed) has played in the past, I would not put it past them to do
#2.

[1] [https://defensesystems.com/articles/2014/04/28/spacex-
protes...](https://defensesystems.com/articles/2014/04/28/spacex-protest-air-
force-ula-contract.aspx)

[2] [http://spacenews.com/ula-vp-resigns-following-remarks-on-
com...](http://spacenews.com/ula-vp-resigns-following-remarks-on-companys-
competitive-position-strategy/)

[3]
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/implication-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/implication-
of-sabotage-adds-intrigue-to-spacex-
investigation/2016/09/30/5bb60514-874c-11e6-a3ef-f35afb41797f_story.html)

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cynoclast
Boeing has been feeding on the teat of the American taxpayer too long. They've
gotten fat and lazy.

This isn't going to happen.

~~~
sintaxi
Agreed. They don't stand a chance really.

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the_watcher
Am I the only one who did a double take and Googled it when Boeing was
described as "Chicago-based?" Maybe it's just because my parents grew up in
Seattle, but I'll always associate Boeing with the Northwest.

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JoeDaDude
Boeing corporate HQ is in Chicago.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_International_Headquart...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_International_Headquarters)

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neuromancer2701
To me this is just ridiculous. ULA is so far behind SpaceX. The whole Vulcan
engine recovery thing just seems so likely to fail and they have to wait for
the BE-3 and who knows how far out that will be.

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hrgeek
First Mercedes decided they'll be the leader in EVs, then Boeing decides
they'll be first to Mars. How will Elon Musk's companies cope with so much
imaginary competition? On that note, I've decided I'm going to be a
billionaire. I don't know why more people don't choose that.

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WheelsAtLarge
Musk started a competition. Before Space X we would not have see this type of
statement from Boeing. I hope other companies get on board. LET THE RACE
BEGIN! Yea!! Love it.

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M_Grey
I see that everyone is realizing the value in this particular PR line, "Mars
Ho!". Given the degree of extreme hope I see in the world of intelligent and
educated people regarding this issue, I suspect it might work for a while too.
At some point though, it's going to become clear that no current group has any
real intentions, not to mention clear ideas, to make a Mars colony work.

~~~
bksenior
Please, explain to me why your so certain these are empty statements. Im
genuinely curious.

If I recall correctly, the first stage of the "moon race" was more
generalized, especially to the press. Also Musk himself has a pretty strong
history of not sharing much of the meat of a plan till it happens.

~~~
M_Grey
We knew how to keep people alive on the way to the Moon, alive on the Moon,
and had a reliable way back. We didn't start off the race by declaring our
intention to colonize the Moon.

So I look at the issues which made Mars 'hard' a while ago, and whether or not
they're solved or if Musk is on the way to solving them. Micrometeorite
shielding. _Not solved_ Radiation shielding. _Not solved_ Long term
microgravity health effects. _Not solved_ Sufficient understanding of the
human microbiome to keep it thriving off-world. _Not even addressed_

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evo_9
I've noticed articles I regularly submit never get traction then the same
article, same link, same title hits the front page. Is this something the Mods
are doing? Just wondering.

Case in point I submitted this article roughly 12 hours ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12641840](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12641840)

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mparlane
Just timing. For a new story to hit the front page it has to be seen on "new"

~~~
evo_9
Except the links are 100% identical, which is why I was asking.

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verelo
I cant help but think that rather than a race against each other, Boeing
should be focused on just making this happens. A coalition of support across
these companies (and others like Airbus) is surly better for the human race
than pure capitalism, in this case.

~~~
krupan
For some reason us humans (speaking generally) get extra motivation out of
competition. See: the previous race to the moon.

~~~
verelo
And peace is boring too, so when we're not actually shooting at each other we
use the economy as a weapon. This is no different, if only we could evolve to
a point where we were better at working together instead of destroying each-
others work, we would achieve a lot more in the short time we're on this
planet. I get that this isn't reality (today), but when people make statements
like that of Boeing's CEO...it just feels like we're not even trying (which i
think is rather pathetic).

tl;dr; Jean Luc Picard wouldn't endorse this line of reason.

~~~
krupan
Competing to see who can build a better rocket first isn't destroying each
others work (i.e., not even close to the same as war). It seems on the surface
that working together instead of competing would be more productive, but have
you ever tried to work on a mega huge engineering team? It's generally not
more effective than a smaller team. So why not have several relatively smaller
teams working on the same thing in parallel, egging (or even cheering) each
other on as they go?

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slosh
Space Race!!! Space Race!!!

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jlebrech
how about beat them but not duplicate the work, let's say send a few living
quarters there.

~~~
excalibur
I support this plan. If we truly want to establish a colony, we should
probably start by picking a suitable location on Mars and sending as many
supplies there as possible. There is no such thing as too much food and water.

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neonbat
l-o-l

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xigency
Tie fighters on Mars?

