
Reddit apologises for Boston "Witch Hunt" - nkhumphreys
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22263020
======
quaunaut
As seems to be the norm these days, the initial HackerNews comments miss the
whole damned point.

Yes, Reddit is a platform. However, it's a platform that they do moderate-
usually heavily. Reddit actually has quite a history of stopping witch hunts,
ever since they started having problems with people posting user information,
or inciting people to harass someone off-site. They've been quite successful
at it, and the community is thankful.

However, those were always related to cases that didn't have any reason
whatsoever to have large groups involved- they were to harass community
members, some small-name celebrities, or people with opinions that are
unpopular on Reddit. This was the first time that it was something that
theoretically, Reddit _could_ do some good with- and has had a bit of luck in
doing this, albeit for much smaller crimes, in the past, by digging up license
plate numbers, or giving advice that led to figuring a suspect out(usually
stuff like hit and runs, or technology robberies).

Obviously, this taught them that there is no good time to let the Reddit hunt
go. That it should _always_ be moderated, every time, out of existence. You
could say that they should've known that going in- but then again, CNN, The
New York Post, Twitter, and HackerNews fucked this shit up as well. Everyone
but the feds did. So get off the high horse.

~~~
bargl
I think the point here is that a witch hunt is never ok. In some of the
situations you listed, people are asking for help in finding someone who
wronged them. In this case the wronged party were not asking for help and it
was offered up freely.

I think that the idea of reddit finding peoples stolen bikes, phones, etc is
typically less of an issue because of the scope of it. In this case the
driving factor was fear and anger, much like what happened after 911.

The point as I see it is that you should never hunt for someone to blame out
of fear or anger. And you are right many people did it, Steven Colbert had an
awesome skit making fun of the Post. But here, HN is our community and to see
that kind of behavior happen here is disappointing. I'd like to see a policy
enacted where posts like that are brought down in the future and not allowed
to go on.

Witch hunts are a major problem with this means of communication, it just
lends itself well to it, and it needs to be stamped out. That's the point.

------
bargl
Honestly, Hacker News... What the fuck. This wasn't just reddit. We did this
too. I come to HN for the intilectual stimulation and then I find this
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5562909> in the top thread.

This disappointing me on so many levels. No it is not everyone's fault but
this sort of witch hunt is wrong and I'd suggest we downvote any
sensationalized idea that 4chan or any other hacker can find the one or two
guilty parties through online means.

~~~
fossuser
A lot of the comments in that thread mentioned previous examples of people
being damaged from false accusations in the media. I don't think looking at
the released pictures itself is a bad thing and I don't think the HN community
was involved in whatever hunting happened that the article alludes to.

~~~
bargl
I think if you read through the comments you'll see a LOT of witch hunting.
Yes there were comments in there about how this kind of behavior was bad, but
it isn't something that I want to see on the front page.

I mean seriously... the front page of hacker news? I don't remember if it got
to #1, but looking at it and up-voting it are two different things. We don't
need that kind of smut here.

------
tocomment
I think there could be some simple improvements to improve this situation in
the future.

1\. Break off the users working on identifying suspects into a non-public sub-
reddit (or other site) and anyone who wants to join should have to read about
how to do this kind of work responsibly and read about what went wrong last
time.

2\. There should a warning to any reporters who try to join the closed site
that this is a work in progress and nothing except the official status reports
of the group should be reported on.

3\. If anyone starts witch-hunting in the public threads then moderators and
users (it should be part of reddediquite if it's not) should point those users
to the closed forum. (and obviously immediately delete anything accusing a
specific person.)

4\. Like someone else also said, reporters need to be educated to not report
directly from Reddit. It's the raw internet.

What do you guys think? What else could be done to improve the situation?

~~~
arbitrage
why condone this activity at all? why not just stamp it out?

~~~
tocomment
I've heard that more eyes on a problem can be very useful. Also it helps keep
the government honest.

(And it would probably be really hard to "stamp" out anyway.)

~~~
sageikosa
Well, we could go on a witch hunt to hunt the witch hunters...but then who
would be hunting us?

~~~
josephb
Witches?

------
delambo
Reddit is the unfiltered internet. I don't go there to get trustworthy news.
The problem is any news source that quotes straight from Reddit - they should
know better, and verify any leads before reporting.

The internet is raw, and people need to put their critical thinking hats on
when digesting unfiltered data, speculation, and analysis.

~~~
webwanderings
Totally makes sense. Mainstream media screwed up big time (so what if they
were hiding the faces on the photographs they quoted). But same is the case
with Twitter ecosystem. It all comes down to "professional journalists"
becoming unprofessional.

People, the common and all kinds of people, on the other hand, would "talk".
Whether online or offline, people talk about all types of things, good, bad or
ugly. Reddit is like a platform which provides microphone to common people and
it amplifies their talk. Just because people have opinion doesn't mean they
should be highlighted in the newspaper.

Reddit and HN etc needs to decide if they are going to editorialize their
platform or not. Apologizing after-the-fact makes no sense.

------
wtvanhest
First, a "witch hunt" is the search for witchcraft or some other non-existent
force/person etc. Searching for a bombing suspect is not a witch hunt since a
bombing suspect was truly on the loose with additional bombs and some type of
plan to use them.

Second, the images reddit had were not the most up to date images possible.
Had the bars uploaded their video, it is likely that reddit would have found
the bombers the first night. They simply didn't have videos and photos that
were up to date enough.

Third, the FBI had a press release around 2:00 Thursday saying they had
identified the suspects and would release their images at 5:00 Thursday.
(leaks were coming out earlier saying they had identified them as early as
Friday morning).

Now, I understand that the FBI was probably following up on leads to locate
them. But, they were not able to find them and while they were looking, the
public was in grave danger.

I understand it is not good to name suspects on a public forum where we do not
have enough evidence and I'm sure I would have been stressed had I been named,
but the finger should be pointed at the police and we should start working
toward better systems for law enforcement.

Those men planed on killing more people and could have carried out the second
attack while the FBI was not releasing their identity. It is simply
unacceptable that it took over 3 days to locate them in the video. I'm not
saying reddit should be the system, but they need a better system to sort and
analyze digital images and video.

The apology should come from the FBI.

~~~
imjared
1) a "witch hunt" can be taken in the metaphorical sense to mean a hunt for
any enemy/dissenter.[1] I think the term is used rather judiciously.

2) "It is likely" isn't good enough. You're hypothesizing. Could they have
found them? Maybe. Could they have not found them? Maybe. All we know is they
didn't find the bombers but instead slandered a number of individuals and
family names in the process.

3) I'm not sure what your background is but I like to believe that our federal
law enforcement (FBI, Police, SWAT Teams, etc.), while not perfect, is pretty
well-trained and collectively has thousands upon thousand of YEARS MORE
experience than I do in collecting evidence, timing its release, and generally
fighting crime. As such, I imagine the timed release was not to delay or
elongate the process but was very intentional.

I do agree with you that it seemed to take longer than is desirable to find
the suspects (especially since once they were found, one got away) but a
"better system" is by no means the hive mind of untrained "armchair
investigators."

Perhaps in the future there will be a way to crowd source information but the
responses of Reddit 4chan, and yes, even some here on HN were well-intentioned
but harmful. An apology from Reddit seems perfectly acceptable.

[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Metaphorical_usage>

~~~
wtvanhest
> _1) a "witch hunt" can be taken in the metaphorical sense to mean a hunt for
> any enemy/dissenter.[1] I think the term is used rather judiciously._

In this case, it is being used over judiciously which is why i take exception
to it. The key to a witch hunt has to be a conviction and/or a hunt for a non-
real cause. I'll even take a conviction to mean real harm (economic/physical
etc.) not sanctioned by the government or sanctioned by he government. Reddit
didn't result in this. He might have been nervous for a few hours, but he was
not harmed. (That doesn't mean we don't need safeguards in place to prevent
it).

> _As such, I imagine the timed release was not to delay or elongate the
> process but was very intentional._

I agree that they used their past experience to set the delay, and I
understand they probably had good logic for it. But, just because an
organization made what they thought was the right decision, in this case it
appears to not have been. As an outside observer it appears that their 1000s
of years of experience failed them, and they need to explain why and issue an
apology.

> _I do agree with you that it seemed to take longer than is desirable to find
> the suspects (especially since once they were found, one got away) but a
> "better system" is by no means the hive mind of untrained "armchair
> investigators."_

I agree that Reddit probably isn't the best system, but we do need to look at
the potential use of crowds to solve cases like this more quickly. I read
through all the reddit commentary and I didn't get the sense of hive mentality
you describe, there was a lot of disagreement and people stating to be careful
and not post their personal information etc. It wasn't perfect, but could have
been effective had they had the right images.

> _Perhaps in the future there will be a way to crowd source information but
> the responses of Reddit 4chan, and yes, even some here on HN were well-
> intentioned but harmful._

At worst they were "potentially" harmful, not actually harmful. Everyone is
lucky nothing bad happened to those people whose pictures were circled, but we
are equally lucky the attackers did not decide to bomb something in the 3 days
after the incident.

------
civild
Relating a specific thread to a "subreddit" and not mentioning that _all_ of
the discussion was driven by users is a bit disingenuous of the BBC. From an
outsider's perspective it makes Reddit sound like a gossip blog or a
news/opinion site written by journalists.

------
fossuser
What were the negative consequences they allude to? Comments on facebook?
Something else?

------
forwardslash
Reddit has a history of apologizing for witch hunts. What's going to stop this
from happening again? Nothing. They just hope that, "Boston will also be where
reddit learns to be sensitive of its own power." I'm sure that will solve
itself.

~~~
quaunaut
They've actually kept dozens from happening in the past, but you've gotta be
familiar with the nature of the site to understand. Generally, those past
witch hunts were built around small groups of people coming together to harass
someone for an unpopular view- whether it was someone working for a company
they hated, or someone who supports women's rights fervently.

This was a case where Reddit had mild success in the past, being able to
figure out the license plates of hit-'n-run suspects, or thieves of various
types. So, they thought that maybe they could do some good here.

Now they know otherwise: There is no right time for stuff like this. Ever. So,
they go back to what they've done in the past to stop these, dozens, and
dozens, and dozens of times: Heavier moderation of anything that could even
possibly lead to someone's personal information.

------
ck2
Look, people had a lot of energy and will to help (and maybe a bit of anger)
and didn't know where to pour it into. It's the same way redcross makes a
fortune to buy new furniture after each disaster because people want to help
but do not know how, so they take the easiest path without any deep thought.

It's not like they ran to join the military to invade Iraq for dubious reasons
somehow impossibly tied to 9/11, so at least we are learning from past
mistakes.

What people need to do is make a crowdsourcing app for the next time this
happens to better focus all that willpower in the right direction.

~~~
bargl
People need to take their leads to the police... Sure the police could have an
app for that, but just because you have extra energy is not a excuse to
destroy peoples lives by falsely accusing them of this sort of crime.

~~~
ck2
I do wonder though how different this thread would be if "the internet"
actually found the right person.

Anyway, for now places like reddit and 4chan have far less influence than say
CNN or Daily News so any damage they cause is far less.

A good crowdsourcing app would maybe have one-way data to "authorities" and
not allow people to "gang up" on any individual.

~~~
tking8924
To be honest, it may be a good thing that the internet didn't find the right
person in this case, because I think the reaction would have been different
and may have ended up reinforcing this behaviour in the future. As it is, we
have been able to take this a lesson on the power of such internet outlets
with hopefully far fewer "casualties" than there could have been.

------
webwanderings
As much as I find Reddit useful but this time around, I really hope the owners
get sued by the innocent people.

\---

So does this mean that HN is also apologizing? I think they should because
there was enough carried over witch-hunt here as well.

~~~
mpyne
So why not sue pg for the "carried over witch-hunt" here on HN, if site owners
are responsible for those now? Or m00t over at 4chan?

~~~
webwanderings
This is a conundrum. The online Forums taking the vigilante role and ending up
as a powerful force begs a question: Is this the forum/platform which has
become so powerful, or the forum/platform owners?

You see, the BBC is reporting that Reddit apologized. Do you really think that
there is such a thing called Reddit which has a capacity to apologize? Either
the owners of Reddit can apologize or nobody. If the owners of Reddit
apologized than do we believe that the group of public (which is mostly
responsible for the witch-hunt) also apologized? How could they apologize as a
collective group when they are not coherent as a visible entity?

The owners of such internet platforms should reflect on when their platform
could be abused by the mass and they should interfere before it becomes a
monster which cannot be tamed.

~~~
mpyne
> The owners of such internet platforms should reflect on when their platform
> could be abused by the mass and they should interfere before it becomes a
> monster which cannot be tamed.

I actually agree, but I'm not sure that I would put that assertion to the
force of _law_. There is then the conundrum of what happens in the face of
selective enforcement (and there will be selective enforcement). Can someone
then sue Reddit for _not_ suppressing an investigation that doxxed them
quickly enough, or at all, given that Reddit has suppressed other
investigations?

If you do manage to always comply with a law saying this much it will only be
by suppressing otherwise valid speech, which is also problematic. Also, can
someone sue Reddit for being suppressed unnecessarily, or is it merely an
inconvenience?

~~~
eurleif
>Can someone then sue Reddit for not suppressing an investigation that doxxed
them quickly enough, or at all, given that Reddit has suppressed other
investigations?

IANAL, TINLA, but I believe section 230 (c)(2) of the Communications Decency
Act implies that reddit couldn't be sued for that:
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230#c>

>No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable
on account of (A) any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict
access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to
be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or
otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally
protected; or

------
theklub
Why does the BBC feel the need to plaster the terrorists faces all over their
website? Honestly its the last thing I want to see, and yet they continue to
burn this image into my head.

------
prawn
This also made ABC news in Australia.

------
stefantalpalaru
Reddit is a platform. Why would the platform apologize for what some of its
users say?

~~~
zwily
One of the few rules reddit has is to not post "personal information". The
admins and mods obviously ignored that for the "witch hunt".

~~~
DannyBee
Do you know of any general forums that are thriving, have user-led moderator,
and yet rigidly apply their rules to every post?

The previous large ones, like SomethingAwful, certainly don't.

In any case:

1\. These aren't paid moderators. Reddit has paid _admins_ , but not
moderators, AFAIK. Expecting subreddit moderators to give a crap seems a bit
far fetched.

2\. I know of nowhere that rigidly applies rules. Even HN doesn't. I know the
typical demographic for HN likes bright- line black/white rules, but it's just
not the real world.

~~~
zwily
No - I don't. However, this was the biggest story on reddit for several days.
This wasn't happening in some podunk subreddit that nobody watches. The
mods/admins could have shut down the posts of personal information. Instead
they apparently decided they were being helpful and let it continue.

I _think_ (I hope) that's what they are apologizing for.

~~~
DannyBee
Again, the mods could not have done anything real. At best they could ban
someone from a subforum.

