
Couples are taking out loans to pay for their weddings - koolba
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/06/19/married-debt-couples-are-taking-out-loans-pay-their-weddings/
======
mbrumlow
At what point are we going to stop treating people who take out loans and
drive up debt as the victim?

Poor life choices is what causes you to get in debt (with the exception of
medical deb, unless well, your poor life choices caused your medical
condition).

In place of all these sob stories and begging for loan forgiveness maybe we
should go back to the schools and educate all of our next generation about the
badness of taking out debt with the same gusto as we did saying how badly you
need a degree and to take out a bunch of debt to do so.

Lets bring back "You can't afford it" followed with "It won't be the end of
the world if you can't invite 200 people to a wedding you really can't
afford".

ELOPE PEOPLE!

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Marketing and social pressure are significant factors in people's decision
making processes. Our entire society is constructed on the basis of convincing
people to buy things and for a long time now whether or not they can actually
afford them has not been a significant concern. It is especially callous and
ignorant to claim that people are in no way victims of this.

However, I think the solution you propose is generally correct. We need to
create a social pressure in the opposite direction of pressures pushing for
people to take on debt.

~~~
the_gastropod
I think you hit the nail on the head—it is a person's responsibility to spend
wisely, but they're fighting a steeply uphill battle. I don't know where the
political will will come from to help create that social pressure, when so
much money in politics comes from those advertising so heavily to us.

~~~
mbrumlow
This why I try to speak out on this issue when I can.

We can change the social perception by speaking out about it. If we don't
speak out about it, its basically giving a pass to a bad social norm.

If marketing still was pushing the issue, but all your friends were like "fuck
getting in to deb" and treated debt like the black death far fewer people
would find them self's chained to institutional debt.

90% of the things people are buying today did not even exist 100 yeas ago and
people got along fine.

So I urge people, when your friends are considering debt, have a serous talk
to them about the consequences. And let them know, that new gadget, event,
fancy dohikie they will use 3 times before they get board of it is just not
needed.

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shishy
Yes... recently met someone who took out a $150K loan on a wedding. Blew my
mind that anyone would think that was a good idea (mind you, the partner who
did that didn't tell the other partner it was a loan, so the latter assumed it
was their money -- that was a fun conversation to have _a few days after the
wedding_ ).

I just can't fathom doing something like this (let alone spending anywhere
near that kind of my own money on a wedding), but I just never grasped the
need for an extravagant wedding so I might be out of the norm here.

~~~
a_shane
I feel the same way; weddings have always felt like an unnecessary
extravagance.

Some friends are getting married on the weekend and I was shocked to learn
that they're spending close to $50,000 on the wedding, and that's _after_ a
raising over $5,000 at their social and getting financial support from both
their families to pay for the event. That's like a downpayment on a house!
Insanity.

~~~
ido
That kind of expense sounds outrageous to me. we married in the czech republic
(we lived in austria at the time, now in germany - both border CZ) & I believe
the bill ended up being around €5-6k which our parents on both sides wanted to
split between them (we could have paid for it ourselves had they not).

partially its because it's just plain cheaper there but a lot of it is just
how freaking overboard some people go with weddings!

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saturdaysaint
I wonder if anyone will try to disrupt the wedding space. As things stand,
it's very, very difficult to have a 200 - 300 person wedding under 10K.

We rented a VFW Hall in an unsexy corner of town, did our own flower
arrangements, got a dirt cheap but good dj (her website was literally
something like cheapdj.com), had a friend make a cupcake smorgasboard, etc etc
and I think everything came to around 14K for 250 guests. We have high income
careers and had an amazing time, so the expense wasn't any kind of burden, but
it's a shame to me that something like even our humble (albeit somewhat big
and on a Saturday during peak season) wedding seems maybe out of the reach of
a lot of middle class young people.

~~~
jerf
It sounds like you approached the wedding from the perspective of "here's the
checklist of amenities we need to provide our guests", which you modified by
striving to ensure each line item was reasonably priced. Not a criticism - I
did that to, and for both of us it seems to have been a financially
responsible decision.

However, for people for whom that isn't financially responsible, I'd suggest
that that mentality isn't appropriate. The question shouldn't be "what do the
guests absolutely require?", but "what can we afford? and what do we want?" In
that order!

The bare minimum for a wedding is a court wedding. There are some reasons why
that may not be the best idea at scale (that is, it may be individually
appropriate but there are social reasons why that's not ever going to be the
only sort of wedding). From there, the next thing you need is somewhere to
gather some people. Are you really obligated to _feed_ them? Depends on the
time you pick. Are you obligated to rent a hall rather than find somewhere you
can go for free? I'd say not. Do you need flowers scaled to the number of
guests? Not really _need_ , no. etc.

Given the ability of money issues to tear marriages apart, I'd say a new
couple should strive quite hard to avoid debt for their wedding, and I'd say,
get _brutal_ with those costs. If social conventions are driving you into
debt, screw social conventions. They were not, in the past, built for that
purpose. To a non-trivial extent, they _are_ built in the present for that
purpose, and the answer to that is to not just decline to play, but to be
_angry_ at the people manipulating those conventions to put you in debt, just
to ensure you stay in the right frame of mind. Plus if enough people do that,
we can take them back.

"If social conventions are driving you into debt, screw social conventions."
has application well beyond this particular matter, too.

~~~
5555624
> but "what can we afford? and what do we want?" In that order!

I'd switch the order. Once you decide what you want, then you cut or adjust
expectations to fit your budget. Just make sure to set the budget before
making decisions. For example, if you want live music at the reception, you
find a musician(s) or band that fit your budget, without simply deciding you
can't afford it.

------
tluyben2
Is this not the same as all the 'living far above your means' things? People
want to appear more successful than they really are to others? Buying a bigger
house, bigger car, bigger wedding, bigger vacations and then showing those off
at parties. And the wedding is the biggest showing off as you invite 1000 of
your closest personal acquaintances to show how you made it in life.

~~~
leetcrew
at least you get to keep the car or house.

as an aside, I've been to a few very expensive weddings and one thing that
always gets to me is the food. it's usually some very fancy looking steak or
seafood dish that tastes totally bland. I can tell it cost a lot of money per
plate just to buy the ingredients but it never tastes good. I'm sure if you
did something like burgers or pizza, it could be delicious and possibly even
cheaper, so why do they do this? is everyone else in on some big game of
pretend high cuisine? is it for the pictures?

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
It's for the pictures.

It's always for the pictures.

~~~
proofofwork
Maybe photoshop weddings could be a thing...

~~~
fetus8
That, or more of the instagram museum type approach where spaces are created
specifically for taking photos that make it look like the wedding is a bigger
party/deal than it truly is...

It's kind of insane to me, as a millenial, that chasing the instagram
aesthetic is such a thing that people are willing to take out loans to
facilitate such events.

~~~
proofofwork
Yup. Might as well go all the way, and have digital weddings, with digital
goods paid in Zuckcoins.

------
Frondo
I'm planning a wedding and we're taking a decidedly non-traditional route.
Because we both grew up on the internet, our friends are scattered across the
seven continents. Having a wedding would mean most of them wouldn't be able to
come.

Our solution: courthouse wedding (cost of, whatever, the cost of a marriage
license). Then, three or four parties in different parts of the world. Each
one might set us back, oh, $500 or $1000 if we have to rent a cheap space or
hire a DJ, but we'll supply some snacks and booze and let friends bring the
rest.

Total cost, including travel (because we can crash with friends once we're
somewhere) will probably be $5,000 for several parties spaced out over several
months, and everyone gets to celebrate with us. We also throw bangers, so this
gives all our mates a night to remember, wherever they are.

------
spacehome
I know a couple who did this. The loan outlived the marriage.

~~~
bilbo0s
I don't know anyone who took out a loan for a wedding. But I do know a woman,
and there must be more of them out there, who took out a loan to pay a lawyer
for a divorce. She said she thought it was a good idea, because the amount
that she got in the settlement, was more than the amount of the loan. Even
when the lawyers took their portion of the settlement too, she figured she was
coming out ahead.

It only occurred to her later that the settlement was a one time thing, but
the loan she had to pay interest on. I'm pretty sure her ex had done the same
thing, because they both talk to us about those payments. So essentially,
these two completely destroyed their marital wealth just to get lawyers.

I don't know man? I think it'd be worth just sitting down together and working
something out, but I guess a lot of people don't think that way.

But here's the kicker that occurred to me reading this article, just imagine
the people that take out loans for the wedding, _and_ the divorce.

Ouch.

------
mywittyname
There's always been a segment of people who would blow way too much money on
weddings. In the past, these people just put them on credit cards.

On a broader level, specialized loans are where the money is at for lenders.
When lenders know what people are aiming to buy, they can work with cottage
industries that sell to that particular market and get kickbacks. I'm sure the
next step for this is shit like wedding insurance policies, preferred vendor
"discounts", etc.

Wedding insurance is a thing, because, of course it is.

~~~
ianai
What does wedding insurance insure?

~~~
frankbreetz
If something causes the wedding to not happen(someone got sick, weather,
flight got canceled...) they would pay all your deposits and refund the
wedding so you could have it another day. not a bad idea if you spend 150,000
on a wedding.

------
JansjoFromIkea
"Couples are getting married later, so they are more willing to pay" Yet the
example in the article is 26

I wonder if this increase is largely in people who in the past would've gotten
married in their teens. By those people not getting married until they're in
their mid 20s, they have access to the kind of debt that can blown on a fancy
enough wedding. In lieu of feeling like you'll ever have access to the means
to buy a house, you might not care too much about racking up 10-15k on a
wedding.

~~~
pureliquidhw
I think this has to do with ongoing costs and upfront costs. You can't get a
home without SOME upfront cash, and it's known that you need money to pay the
taxes, additional utilities, maintenance, etc after you purchase the home.

The comparison between a $50k loan for a wedding vs a $50k downpayment on a
home is that they never had that money to begin with, and the payments on the
wedding are just another expense vs buying into a mortgage with all the extra
costs alongside it.

I'm not claiming a loan for a wedding is a good idea, in fact I think it is a
terrible one. But building off what you've said, that they're older and can
make bigger financial choices, I can see how a loan for the wedding can seem
like a viable option to someone.

------
Bakary
Honest question: is it arrogant or pretentious for me to think those people
are stupid? It just seems like such a woeful decision to make. The oily loan
sharks are indeed partially responsible, but it's like blaming the sharpness
of the knife after you stab yourself.

~~~
bittercynic
It is at least ignorant and dismissive to think that.

I've met a few people who face social pressures from their family, who number
in the dozens, to do things that appear extremely financially irresponsible
from my perspective. If you have to choose between being responsible and not
infuriating the 40 most important people in your life, I don't think that
would be an easy decision to make. Go against the grain too many times and you
risk having the family turn their collective back on you, which might be the
best thing financially, but is still a terrifying prospect.

~~~
balfirevic
I think this just illustrates how different social worlds are for different
people.

For me, having 40 family members (especially the ones whose opinion you'd care
about) just sounds made up. And having family members pressure you into things
you don't want sounds like a great opportunity to learn how to tell people to
mind their own business.

Please note, I'm not judging. I can't even mentally put myself in that
situation, so how could I judge? But also, it's hard not to notice that if
somebody's 40 family members turn their back on them then their life would
just become similar to the lives of mostly everyone I know (i.e. having 0-5
family members that care about you and that you care about).

------
Balgair
One very important caveat is the culture of which these weddings are styled.
By this I mean, are the couple getting married in a traditional Chinese or
South Asian (India, Pakistan, Bangledesh) wedding? If so, taking out loans and
having _very_ extravagant weddings would not be abnormal nor an unwise
financial decision. Typically, weddings in these cultures will pay for
themselves and have a fair bit left over as a gift to the couple from the
invited guests. The 'aunties' are tasked with making sure that invited family
and friends are paying up!

------
lordleft
I sincerely believe that my generation (millenials) are radically rethinking
the necessity of big weddings. A lot of us would rather have a housing deposit
than a swanky (and often gaudy) venue.

~~~
dfxm12
as an orthogonal aside, I think we're also rethinking the necessity of
marriage.

~~~
antisthenes
The men certainly are. Not sure if a marriage really provides any security for
a typical guy, just more risk.

------
2000andlate
Hey, at least it’s not a student loan. You can still discharge your $150,000
wedding in bankruptcy.

------
bitlax
If it's important to you, and your family can't help out, and you don't have
the cash on hand but will in the future, why not take out the loan? I don't
see how this is different from financing a luxury car.

~~~
neogodless
You have a lot of stipulations in your question, and I think those exact
things should be closely examined when the decision is made. And it should be
a decision (not an assumption.)

Do I value having a huge, extravagant party for one day over starting out my
marriage on a solid financial foundation, or other expensive items like
childcare and housing?

Will I have the cash in the future? Will my earnings dwarf this expense and
the additional interest I accrue while I work hard to pay it off?

Did I figure out for myself that this one-day event is "truly important to me"
or do I just think it's something everyone does, and I have to do as well? Why
is it important to me?

~~~
bitlax
Just as long as we agree.

------
g8oz
Couples could really cut down on costs if they apply this criteria to choosing
people for the guest list: would this person be genuinely saddened if they
heard I was getting divorced?

------
radcon
"Why don't we start our lives together by blowing obscene amounts of money on
a party?"

"Great idea!"

Is that how the conversation goes? I'm genuinely curious...

~~~
thomascgalvin
I don't think there _is_ a conversation. A shocking number of people get
married without discussing critical things like finances, or whether they want
children, first.

~~~
mooreds
I had some difficult conversations with my future spouse. It's not fun to
think about money or kids or religion or finances when you are in the
honeymoon of your early love.

But it is so important. We talk all the time about company and team alignment,
but being aligned with your spouse matters so much more.

------
arayh
[https://outline.com/gTMv4p](https://outline.com/gTMv4p)

------
cookieswumchorr
apart from marriage itself being the legal equivalent of shooting yourself in
the leg, why not make it worse by taking a loan, genius!

------
Gatsky
This is part of a general trend of outrageous spending on luxury items and
experiences, often by young adults. Luxury goods are ascendant. Living within
your means seems to be an outdated ante-Millennial concept.

Although there are other factors involved, I think it is a great and
unprecedented triumph of modern advertising that they can convince people to
go into debt for unnecessary crap. Pretty terrifying, frankly.

~~~
2000andlate
Can we please stop this canard? The youngest millennials are in their mid to
late 20s, and the oldest are in their late 30s. Please stop generalizing an
entire generation that for the first time in American history is expected to
be worse off than their parents.

~~~
malvosenior
There were many generations that were worse off than their parents in American
history. I don't know about you but I'd rather have not fought in a war, so
any generation prior to a major war was better off than the one that followed.
I think what you mean to say is: it's harder to live up to late 20th century
mass media defined standards for individualism and hedonism. It's not really
that surprising that such a thing wasn't infinitely scaleable.

~~~
2000andlate
Nope, I mean they actually have less spending power than their parents, and
that’s new: [https://www.npr.org/2018/11/30/672103209/why-arent-
millennia...](https://www.npr.org/2018/11/30/672103209/why-arent-millennials-
spending-more-they-re-poorer-than-their-parents-fed-says)

~~~
malvosenior
That report only looks at the 20th century generations, so I don't know that
your original statement holds they're a generation "that for the first time in
American history is expected to be worse off than their parents".

It is also very dubious in its methodology. This is as close as that study
gets to looking at raw, unmanipulated data:

 _" To begin, we compare annual labor earnings of full-time workers who worked
more than 30 hours per week (or 1,560 hours per year). As shown in the top row
of the table, average real full-time labor earnings of male heads of all
households declined between 1978 and 1998 and then rebounded over the next 16
years. On net, real average full-time labor earnings for males increased 10
percent between 1978 and 2014. However, younger male workers appear to have
been left out of the labor earnings increase. Specifically, the real average
full-time labor earnings of a millennial male household head in 2014 were
about the same as those for a 11 comparable male Generation X household head
in 1998 and over 10 percent lower than those for a comparable male baby boomer
household head in 1978."_

 _" For female heads of all households, real average full-time labor earnings
increased moderately between 1978 and 1998 and between 1998 and 2014,
reflecting, in part, rising female educational attainment. However, the median
labor earnings of female millennial household heads in 2014 were about 3
percent lower than those of comparable female Generation X household heads in
1998."_

 _" For families, the data show that real income of married couples grew, on
net, from 1978 to 2014; this trend is seen in the sample of all households and
in the sample of households headed by individuals younger than 33 years old
and likely reflects the rise in the female labor force participation rate and
the increase in the prevalence of dual income households. However, the net
growth of real family income was smaller for young married couples than for
married couples of all ages during this span of years."_

Aside from earnings and debt, for massive swaths of Americans there's been no
better time to be alive than 2019. Violent crime, racism and sexism are at all
time lows. Health care is expensive but _much_ better than the past. Food is
cheaper and there are healthier options.

My original point is the strongest though. There are no wars. I'd rather be in
debt than have my arms blown off in combat or have to kill people, all against
my will because I got drafted.

------
ddffre
Idiots

