
Two big announcements - jboynyc
https://37signals.com/
======
gkoberger
Very interesting announcement. I'm sure they're making the right decision, and
I'm even more sure they did a ton of user testing.

However, it's weird to lose the 37 Signals brand. I actually don't like
Basecamp as a product, but I _love_ 37 Signals. I treat their books like a
bible, and read their blog posts religiously. Somehow, they seemed like more
like a philosophy than just a product, and Basecamp (and Rails and their
books) were a side effect.

I know it's the same people and nothing will really change (A rose by any
other name...), but it's still so weird to me to lose 37 Signals.

~~~
matthewrudy
I agree, I actually don't use any 37signals products.

Basecamp doesn't work for how I organise projects, and Campfire is a poor
competitor to HipChat.

But I frequently point to them as an example of how to run a company. And they
know their customers really well.

I guess I'm just not one of their customers.

~~~
midas007
HipChat was a clone of Campfire that out-did them. It's a smart tactical move
to give up on that conceding to Pete, Chris, Gary, et al. which did a superb
job on HipChat.

Personally, I enjoy using FlowDock and Hubot.

------
aresant
1999 founded.

2004 first product launched.

5 years after the company and team came together.

5 years of time to hone the skills and struggle.

Oh yah, and another 10 years to grow to 43 people.

Simple reminder of the commitment to patience it can actually take to build a
remarkable business.

~~~
eps
What struggle?

They were formed to design websites and that's what they did for 5 years.
Though I guess you _can_ view web design as a "struggle" with all that IE6
testing and what not, but some people really enjoy it :)

~~~
girvo
_but some people really enjoy it_

Who.

0_o

~~~
tripzilch
I used to love battling with IE6 to get a webdesign looking great, cross-
browser compatible and degrading gracefully. Ok it was maybe more like
love+hate, it was a challenge, a puzzle and particularly trying to solve it in
the least (subjectively) "hackish" way possible.

But then, I also used to write 4096 byte demos in x86 asm. And a bunch of
other crazy things that don't even occur to me now, some things with JS ...

------
dror
We use basecamp and campfire at work. Basecamp is mediocre, not horrible and
not great. Campfire sucks compared to similar tools that I've used in the
past.

Seems to me that they've been successful mostly because of their involvement
in the Ruby and startup world, rather than making great products. Nothing
wrong with that, but it's good to be clear about the distinction between a
company that makes great product and a company that's good at marketing
itself.

~~~
calibraxis
What are great alternatives to Basecamp? (I don't use Basecamp but am
interested in the space.)

~~~
k1w1
The thing that Basecamp does well is that it is a generic project management
tool that can be used for any kind of project - thus its wide appeal. The most
interesting alternatives are ones that specialize in particular types of
projects. For example, if you are a designer there is Solo and if you are a
product manager there is my product Aha! -
[http://www.aha.io](http://www.aha.io). These alternatives specialize by
taking the common elements of project management software (like todo lists,
calendars and comments) and tailoring them towards a particular job function.

~~~
calibraxis
Thank you! Checking out Aha! now. Seems Solo may come in handy too sometime...

------
joshmlewis
I think it's commendable to take this approach. They are doing a few things
very right. 1.) Not shutting down existing products and leaving users without
a service, 2.) Not wanting to just sell it to the highest bidder but actually
are concerned about their users, 3.) Having the guts to just put everything on
the table and changing major things up. I feel like a lot of companies feel
like, 'Well we have these products we have to either keep them going and scale
or kill them.' Their solution here is a wise one that is certainly putting
users before dollars and ease.

While everyone may not be happy with it, it's certainly better than a lot of
shut downs and other moves startups have made that have pissed a lot of people
off.

------
noelwelsh
Interesting. I always saw 37Signals as a good example of a diversified
portfolio. I notice they're going to keep the side projects (books, job board)
which probably have the highest margins and require very little ongoing
investment of mental energy. I don't see where the growth in Basecamp is going
to come from, but then I don't use the product (tried it once, too limited.)

Also, did Jason Fried step out of a time machine with his IBM Selectric
typewriter to compose this? 37Signals have always been on the hipster end of
things but the design of this letter is ridiculously so.

~~~
tripzilch
> Also, did Jason Fried step out of a time machine with his IBM Selectric
> typewriter to compose this? 37Signals have always been on the hipster end of
> things but the design of this letter is ridiculously so.

I gotta admit, while it's the content of the article that has 99% of my
interest (going to miss the "37signals" name, but it sounds like they know
_exactly_ what they're doing, so good for them!), I did also pause and wonder
about the Courier font as well as the "scribbly" version of the Basecamp logo.

But then, that's me, and sometimes a font is just a font? :)

------
luigi
I predict that GitHub will acquire Campfire.

~~~
michaelbuckbee
My bet was going to be Atlassian. They have the clearest competitor to
Campfire (Hipchat), a history of pulling off acquisitions (Bitbucket) and from
37Signals perspective could probably make a better case that they could take
care / migrate their customers.

~~~
subbu
I doubt unless they want to kill Hipchat and use Campfire.

 _We will not sell either of these products to a company that is planning to
shut the products down._

IMO Hipchat is a better chat tool than Campfire.

~~~
lucaspiller
Why kill either? They are already a big player in the market, if they have
Campfire too their will dominate it.

~~~
lmm
Maintaining two products that overlap that much is going to look like a waste
sooner or later.

~~~
Uchikoma
They could just have two different frontends, everything else the same.

------
jhonovich
"Based on current revenues, current growth rates, and a conservative multiple,
Campfire will sell in the single digit millions, and Highrise will sell in the
tens of millions"

Anyone care to take a guess to what Campfire and Highrise revenue? What type
of multiple of revenue do they expect to get?

~~~
sutterbomb
I'd guess a 6x multiple of revenue, considering their sales, staffing and
acquisition models. (I.e. no-touch, low-overhead, referral/word of mouth.)

[Addendum] Perhaps 6x was extremely low given the current market. Need to
update my priors: [http://tomtunguz.com/saas-valuation-
bubble/](http://tomtunguz.com/saas-valuation-bubble/)

------
tibbon
Congrats on figuring it out and having a clear focus, but also to trying a lot
of things over the years and figuring out what works. And thank you for being
so responsible with the future of your legacy products. There are too many
companies that are too happy to simply shut down things as soon as ROI numbers
don't line up.

Here's to the future.

------
Uchikoma
Great success.

Though my guess is all the people who applauded 37signals for their product
strategy, will now again applaud 37signals.

And there will be a book "The One Product Company".

------
PhilipA
Am I the only one who doesn't get why Basecamp is praised so much? I think it
is okay, but nothing exceptionally. Also if I didn't knew the product, I would
never signup when looking at the frontpage, it looks very outdated, and not
very trustworthy. Hopefully a better focus, will make the experience more up-
to-date.

~~~
adrianhoward
_" I would never signup when looking at the frontpage, it looks very outdated,
and not very trustworthy. Hopefully a better focus, will make the experience
more up-to-date."_

Almost certainly a sign that you're not the target market for basecamp. They
do a lot of testing on their landing pages (see
[http://signalvnoise.com/posts/2991-behind-the-scenes-ab-
test...](http://signalvnoise.com/posts/2991-behind-the-scenes-ab-testing-
part-3-final) for example.)

------
bowlofpetunias
Understandable move, focus on the one big product. And as far as company name
is concerned, nobody outside our tech bubble has ever heard of "37 Signals".

The Q & A does highlight the reality distortion field around the cult-like
status of 37 Signals though:

> Q: This is a really unusual strategy (..)

No. No it isn't. But if Jason Fried claims it is, I'm sure that will be echo-
ed on HN.

(Not trying to be super negative, I consider 37 Signals a major source of
inspiration, and I'm a Basecamp user.)

------
guynamedloren
From the FAQ:

> _Based on current revenues, current growth rates, and a conservative
> multiple, Campfire will sell in the single digit millions, and Highrise will
> sell in the tens of millions._

Amazing that those products are doing so well and they've largely been on
autopilot for the past few years. This info + the switch to focus on Basecamp
can only mean that they're making an absolute killing with Basecamp.

------
bluefreeze
Am I the first person who realized "Signal vs. Noise" blog move to
[http://signalvnoise.com/](http://signalvnoise.com/)?

------
chriskottom
Seems like a weird strategy. I admire the focus shown, but what if Thomas
Edison had decided after 10 years to rebrand GE as Something Something Light
Bulbs, Inc?

~~~
rimantas
If all they were making would be light bulbs, why not? RIM rebranded to
BlackBerry (though RIP may have been a better choice :( ).

------
matthewmacleod
It's a good idea for them to take the plunge and do this, because it pretty
much just aligns their official strategy and brand with their actual strategy.
Campfire hasn't seen an update in forever, and the rest of the ecosystem also
felt like it was already in maintainable mode.

We already migrated away to Hipchat as a result, and I get the impression that
others might have been doing the same.

------
athaeryn
So uh... is this going to be a problem?
[https://twitter.com/basecamp](https://twitter.com/basecamp)

~~~
thiele
If the account hasn't been active for 6 months (which appears to be the case)
Basecamp may be able to get the handle. Policy:
[https://support.twitter.com/articles/15362-inactive-
account-...](https://support.twitter.com/articles/15362-inactive-account-
policy)

~~~
johns
The last I heard, it needed to be entirely dormant (meaning not a single log
in) for 30 months in order to be eligible to transfer. Though they might have
a trademark claim that would likely help.

------
tyrelb
And I was just about to integrate Highrise into my app...moving on! Any
suggestions on a Highrise competitor that is stable, etc.?

~~~
philfreo
Give us a shot... [http://close.io/](http://close.io/)

We've also got an easy migration tool for any existing Highrise users:
[http://close.io/highrise](http://close.io/highrise) and a solid REST API
[http://developer.close.io/](http://developer.close.io/)

------
philfreo
Big news! We've been big fans of 37signals for a decade or so and in many ways
they have inspired us in building Close.io. I love that they are able to make
the hard decision to focus on one thing.

We want to take great care of any Highrise customers looking for a new home:
[http://close.io/highrise](http://close.io/highrise)

Check out [http://close.io/](http://close.io/) \- mention that you were a
Highrise customer and I can make sure you'll get a special discount.

Close.io is a next-gen sales communication tracking tool with an easy 1-click
migration from Highrise, as well as automatic 2-way email syncing, call
tracking, etc. See what our customers say at [https://www.quora.com/Reviews-
of-Close-io](https://www.quora.com/Reviews-of-Close-io)

~~~
guynamedloren
Your comment implies Highrise is going to disappear - however, that's not the
case. They're either going to sell Highrise (to a buyer who is committed to
keeping it running + growing) or continue to run it themselves in maintenance
mode.

~~~
philfreo
I don't think it's going to disappear, but I do think many customers will
consider alternatives when it's clear the original designers are no longer
onboard with the product anymore.

Highrise was an amazing product years ago, but let's face it, Highrise has
almost been abandoned for the past couple years at least. Could a new owner
take over and revamp it to be amazing? It's possible, but not the common
outcome of acquisitions.

------
midas007
There are so many project management apps out there, the competition is
fierce. For a proj mgmt app to succeed, there either has to be USP and massive
value. For example, Asana is especially good. I haven't tried Basecamp
recently but it wasn't as lightweight, low-cost and nice as Asana.

~~~
veidr
I am extremely interested in this space, both as a user and as a developer[1].

As it happens, I use (and pay for) both Asana and Basecamp. I use Asana
internally with my own staff, and I use Basecamp externally with clients.

My clients tend to be non-technical businesses with custom software needs --
and most of them would be like "WHAT. THE. FUCK. HELLLP~!" if I asked them to
use Asana. Keyboard shortcuts, context menus, sliding popovers, disclosure
widgets, multiple views onto the same data/work-graph, _aiiiighhhhh_!

On the other hand, Basecamp has really nailed their niche -- the project
management app that really is simple enough for 'average folks'. Making that
choice completely alienates the tech-savvy power user that most of their
competitors seem to be targeting (e.g. Flow, Wrike, Teamwork PM, Azendoo,
Dooster, Teambox, TeamLab, Do.com, FMYI, to name just a few that I have
evaluated and rejected).

Which 37Signals, oops I mean Basecamp, is obviously OK with, given Basecamp's
massive user base and success. Basecamp is a pretty cool software story, and
actually a pretty cool piece of software, even though it is too limited and
underpowered for me to use it as my own primary project manager.

[1] I develop software (among other roles) for a living, but I develop
project-management web app software mostly just in my fantasies and rage-
imagination... spending many hours in a week in these apps _really_ makes a
person want to develop the One True Project Management app, though.

~~~
HarveyKandola
It's not easy building that project-management app that is usable by both
geeks and customers.

We ([http://countersoft.com](http://countersoft.com)) are pushing the approach
of a single tool for both project tracking (geeks) and ticketing (customers).
It's not easy to say the least because customers love to just do everything in
email!

~~~
midas007
There's different use cases. There are high-level / strategy oriented task
systems and low-level microtask work systems that tend to have more specialist
features for getting shit done baked in. As payware goes, JIRA is a pretty
well-rounded high-level one. Gitlab seems fairly popular for dev work because
it emulates much of github and is more integrated with source control (getting
shit done) than say redmine.

------
timedoctor
HOw is having two versions of Basecamp (old and new) simplification?

Also I think Asana is beating Basecamp in terms of having both simplicity and
power, although I would say that the Basecamp UI is more simple than Asana,
Asana is a lot faster and a lot more powerful and Asana is free for up to 15
users. I think Asana will take a lot of business away from Basecamp over the
long term.

Having said that, in our business we use Jira, Asana and Basecamp (part of the
reason for using all 3 is that we integrate our product with them). We keep
Baecamp as a central repository of information and for that purpose Asana is
not really as well suited.

For task management, Asana is way better than Basecamp.

~~~
midas007
Asana is really good. There are very few surprises and it seems to just get
out of your way.

------
inthewoods
I started a software company years ago with three friends. We had some good
success. We then saw an opportunity to start another product that was adjacent
to Photoshop - basically a tool to improve Photoshop productivity. We moved
most of our engineering team to focus on this product. Then Adobe built the
functionality we provided right into the product, and our entire installed
base moved to that. Meanwhile, we had neglected our core product and customers
had become frustrated with the lack of progress and were moving onto other
tools.

I tell this story because I wonder if this is what happened with
37Signals/Basecamp.

------
math0ne
This is really cool. I love basecamp and have been a daily user since close to
day one. However their maintaining legacy basecamp in parallel to new basecamp
seems to make even less sense to me now then it did then.

It seems to me if the transition process between the two could have been
smoother they could have got all their users on board for the upgrade.

I'm really hoping that as part of their renewed efforts with basecamp they
might re-address people that are stuck in basecamp classic due to the much
less than smooth upragde process.

------
wgx
My hunch - as I was reading - was that the second announcement would be that
they'd open-source the other products.. I was wrong.

------
girvo
Now, a question.

If your business has a great product, is it the best idea to follow Basecamp
nee 37Signal's trajectory? In other words, build those other products, then
later consolidate?

Or take the GitHub route and stick to (basically) one awesome product and
leave it at that? I wonder what's a better choice? I lean towards the latter
personally.

------
deanpeterson
They did this for another reason as well. They can't grow past 50 employees or
they will have to pay through the nose for Obamacare. If they continue to
grow, they would inevitably require more staff besides developers that need
expensive healthcare. Obamacare is a great way to keep small companies small.

------
howradical
Brilliant. 37signals inspired a generation of developers, nearly every modern
web framework and dozens of direct competitors. Makes complete sense to double
down on their biggest winner. Many people talk about cutting, simplifying,
focus, editing - but few people and even fewer companies follow through on it.

------
ksec
I really like 37signals, for Ruby, Rails or basically their taste for tech and
their startup culture / their books. But none of their product really catches
me. They are from ok to very good. But not great. Actually Basecamp was the
only very good one.

Preferring Trello or Pivotal Tracker.

------
lachlanj
Based on the lack of attention the new Basecamp has gotten after launch, this
is incentive enough for me to more to a new project management tool. The only
real incentive to say was the _very_ minor integration with Highrise

------
karolisd
So, what about Basecamp Classic? That's something they won't sell to another
company, but is it something they'll continue supporting? I'd imagine it's
simple to maintain.

~~~
codezero
FAQ at the bottom of the article says:

Q: What about Basecamp Classic?

We are fully committed to running Basecamp Classic forever. As long as we're
around, Basecamp Classic will be around. A large chunk of our customer base
loves Classic and we'll make sure they'll always have their Classic. The same
rigorous uptime standards of Basecamp also apply to Basecamp Classic.

Background: Basecamp Classic was the original version of Basecamp we launched
in 2004. Then in 2012 we released the all new version of Basecamp. Customers
had the choice to stay on the old version, transition to the new version, or
use both.

------
usablebytes
Hats off to the simplicity and focus these guys have. I have loved and admired
this company over years. These announcements have only added more respect for
them.

------
jaxomlotus
1) I never understood the odd trend of having a jpeg of a handwritten
signature included in a digital email. A signature is supposed to designate
authenticity, but a letter on a authenticated website is inherently authentic.

So it's forced, and decorative. And makes me think the author is trying too
hard.

2) I respect Jason very much and think this decision is the right one from a
consumer perspective. If they are only going to make one product going forward
(which is the right decision), there's no need for a separate company brand.
Good call by them - and no doubt a difficult one to make.

------
Smrchy
We are still using the old Basecamp version because time tracking didn't make
it into the relaunched version. Maybe you guys add time tracking now?

------
kunle
So what happens to the other products?

~~~
yefim
Q: If you're going all in on Basecamp, what happens to Campfire and Highrise?

In the short term, everything stays the same. Business as usual. No
interruption in service, no changes that affect our customers.

In the long term, one of three things:

SCENARIO 1: We'll spin them off into separate companies where we'll retain
partial ownership, but another fully-dedicated team will run the products and
own the majority of the company. This would be our ideal situation as it would
ensure continuity and no interruption for our customers, but we'd have to find
the right entrepreneur/team with the right experience and enough financing to
make it work.

SCENARIO 2: We'll sell the products outright (either separately or together).
The key for us in this scenario is that the products, and our customers, are
well looked after. We will not sell either of these products to a company that
is planning to shut the products down. And since no one from our team goes
with the sale, this is not an acqui-hire situation. We're looking to sell to a
company that wants to add well-respected, well-established, profitable,
growing products to their portfolio.

SCENARIO 3: If we can't find the right partner or buyer, we are committed to
continuing to run the products for our existing customers forever. We won't
sell the products to new customers, but existing customers can continue to use
the products just as they always have. The products will shift into
maintenance mode which means there will be no new development, only security
updates or minor bug fixes. We did this successfully in 2012 with Ta-da List,
Writeboard, and Backpack, so we know how to make it work.

If you're a company or team interested in exploring scenario 1 (spin-off) or
scenario 2 (outright purchase), please get in touch. Based on current
revenues, current growth rates, and a conservative multiple, Campfire will
sell in the single digit millions, and Highrise will sell in the tens of
millions, so serious inquires only please. Disclosure: We're currently in
early discussions with a few interested parties.

------
midas007
Docker-like move: it's good to be focused on what is popular AND makes net $.

------
nppc
Some how reading all this Sounds like Jason is envious of Evernote on some
level.

------
joshfraser
Surprised they didn't do this sooner.

------
wellactually
It's "37signals."

~~~
tharri
Actually, it's Basecamp.

------
sandeepmzr
Appreciate that 37signals is moving on.

------
Houshalter
Extremely vague useless title.

------
caiob
bold move.

------
notastartup
37 Signals is the reason I started learning how to make web apps. They are
really the poster child of successful independent software vendors. Not
focusing on burning investors cash but growing as a profitable business. One
can only dream to match their level of success.

