
US Secret Service: “Massive Fraud” Against State Unemployment Insurance Programs - elsewhen
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/05/u-s-secret-service-massive-fraud-against-state-unemployment-insurance-programs/
======
yalogin
I am amazed at how well these criminals from another country know the details
of the systems in the US when we in the US have probably a handful of people
who understand the end-to-end line they do.

I am not surprised this is happening. The small offices in each state are
responsible for 100s of millions of dollars and they awfully unequipped for
it. This is sort of thing that the federal government should do and provide a
portal for each state to use so that they can track and do stuff across states
to look for fraud. However i don’t know if states rights and separation of
duties screws this up.

~~~
mattm
> we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand

When I moved to the US from Canada and HR was helping me setup my health
insurance on the first day, I was overwhelmed trying to understand it and said
"Sorry, I don't really understand how health insurance works here."

The HR person responded:

"That's ok. Most Americans don't understand how it works either."

~~~
caconym_
> Most Americans don't understand how it works either.

When I dislocated my jaw and went to an in-network ER for treatment (it popped
back in as I was sitting on the bed), I wasn't _surprised_ to get a call from
a collections agency regarding bills I never received from an "out of network"
shell corporation for "consulting physicians" (never even saw a doctor, only a
nurse), but I definitely didn't see it coming.

Count me an average American, I guess.

~~~
tiborsaas
Sorry, can't decide if it was a scamming attempt or it was a legit request?

~~~
antsar
That’s just a matter of perspective :)

------
unnouinceput
Quote: "The Service’s memo suggests the crime ring is operating in much the
same way as crooks who specialize in filing fraudulent income tax refund
requests with the states and the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS), a
perennial problem that costs the states and the U.S. Treasury hundreds of
millions of dollars in revenue each year."

A perennial! problem, hundreds of millions each year. It blows my mind how 80+
years later SSN is still used as identity, far beyond its original purpose. I
mean with only one year of those losses US gov. could easily adopt something
better.

~~~
Dobbs
The Dutch system to this is pretty nice. Your BSN gets attached to a digital
id (DigiD).

You might give your BSN out to a company (healthcare, doctor, etc) but that is
used to create the link to your DigiD. From there if you want to login to
something like your healthcare company it will then bring up a form where you
copy four characters from your DigiD app on your phone. This makes sure the
requests match, then you just scan a QR code and type in a pin.

So if you want to login to do something related to your taxes, or healthcare
online you have very strong two factor auth.

Additionally banks work similarly for making payments or purchases online. I
want to order a pizza for delivery online it redirects me to a payment page on
my banks website. I then take out my bank app on my phone, type in a pin, scan
a QR, and approve the payment.

~~~
rbanffy
> it will then bring up a form where you copy four characters from your DigiD
> app on your phone

What happens when you don't own a phone?

~~~
coblers
Can't chime in for Netherlands, but here in Denmark you can get an actual code
card you use for 2FA. It has 100 codes on it.

If you're doing online shopping/purchases chances are you have a phone though.

------
canada_dry
In context of how much "personal identifiable information" (e.g. SSN) that is
stolen through data breaches in the USA - it's hardly a surprise.

The list of breaches just goes on-and-on:
[https://krebsonsecurity.com/category/data-
breaches/](https://krebsonsecurity.com/category/data-breaches/)

~~~
asciident
I think it's time we just eliminated the concept of personally identifiable
information (PII). Your SSN, birthdate, name, etc. are no longer secret.
Operate with that assumption. Invest in a department in the government (e.g.
digital service) to make this change once and for all. Heck, let's eliminate
DST and move to the metric system while we're at it. Let's call this "moving
to new standards" that will pay off in dividends in the future.

~~~
sp332
Why would a bank give someone a loan if they have no idea who the person
really is?

~~~
dodobirdlord
How is any of this information supposed to secure anything? Name, birth date,
address, etc are all public record or essentially public record. The only
"secret" piece of information is the SSN, which is (a) public for almost all
Americans and (b) specifically forbidden for being used as an identification
number.

~~~
3737e6y3yrydy
This is a very 'tech' response in a good way, it made me smile. I think they
meant why would a bank give an anybody a loan? You have no way of knowing if
an anybody already has a loan out with you and you have no ability to evaluate
their risk. Why would you loan money to someone with no ability to review
their credit health and financial situation? It's an impossible battle without
inventing a user specific metric.

~~~
Xelbair
>It's an impossible battle without inventing a user specific metric.

And that's exactly what happens over here. There is no credit score, nor other
such bullshit.

You get assessed for viability by proving your current income for last X
months depending on the loan.

There also exists a national black list of debtors - but to get there you must
really mess up and not even try to pay back your loan.

~~~
3737e6y3yrydy
How do you price your current income with no identifying information is the
point that was being made. If you can prove your income then you have
identifiers.

~~~
Xelbair
you get a standardized form from your employer, or income transactions from
the bank. They can use that data internally, but they cannot sell it nor give
it to 3rd parties.

------
icegreentea2
I wonder what the rate/total volume (or detected volume) of fraud is? How does
it compare to baseline levels of fraud? The article says the amount of fraud
has kept pace with dramatic increase in claims in Rhode Island. If it's just
keeping pace, why are we surprised? Do we even need to worry that much? Is the
current situation making it easier to commit fraud? Or is it just generating
more volume and noise to hide fraud in?

------
ipnon
My friend's desperately needed unemployment funds are frozen because they were
requested using a Romanian IP address. My friend has never been to Romania nor
spoofed their IP in such a manner. The New York state unemployment website
seemingly allows no recourse for this incident. They are now unemployed and
unable to receive any income.

~~~
marcinzm
The recourse as I understand it is to try and call the agency to speak to a
person. Of course the call systems are overloaded so that's easier said than
done.

edit: This is the general approach by US agencies, the IRS website barfed on
my info and I had to call a local office to get a person to help me (the
nation wide number was 100% automated and likewise barfed on my info).

~~~
ken
Calling the unemployment office right now is virtually impossible.

Conventional wisdom these days is that if you want to collect unemployment,
you need to make filing a claim your full-time job. You start calling at 7am
when they open, and keep re-dialing until you get through -- hopefully before
they close at 4pm, and you have to start again the next day.

Also, don't call before Wednesday, if you don't absolutely need to.
Monday/Tuesday are unofficially reserved for people who really need the money.

Of course, even if you get through to a person and get the right bit flipped
in their database, there's no guarantees. I also hear lots of stories of
people whose claims were approved 4 or 6 weeks ago and still haven't gotten a
dime.

~~~
smabie
Why are Monday/Tuesday unofficially reserved for people who really need the
money?

------
kryogen1c
remember when SSNs were being implemented and the government promised it
wouldn't be used as a personal identifier?

~~~
ashtonkem
Not personally, because I’m not 90 years old.

But you’re right that the original purpose wasn’t identifying people, however
it was private banks that really latched onto it as a convenient way to
identify people and associate debts to individuals.

~~~
apta
Just goes to show how much of a net negative the parasitic banking system is
on society.

~~~
closeparen
Your lifestyle must be pretty ascetic then? A society that only contains
business bootstrapped by independently wealthy owners is pretty small. Almost
everything we have required somebody else's capital to build. There was a
reason unemployment spiked when lending stopped in 2008.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Lock up all capital with a small group of individuals and you will then need
to acquire that capital in order to create large projects, that's pretty
truistic.

A system where you instead has to convince a "capital" assignment group
(really a work+resources assignment)- who would only profit if your project
benefitted society - could also work.

You'd get different assignment of resources too as ability to extract maximum
value from the system and lodge it with a small group of capital holders
wouldn't be the principle aim.

This only works with systems where everyone is on board and there are no
greedy people, ...

~~~
apta
It may come as a surprise to people, but there have been societies which
banned interest/usury, yet got things done just fine (e.g. Islam bans usury,
but the Islamic Golden Age speaks for itself). Even until relatively recently,
when Western colonialists forced their usurious banking system onto Islamic
nations post WWII, things were done interest-free.

~~~
andresgottlieb
Coming from a jewish background (Judaism also "bans interest/usury"), I advise
you to take these rules with a grain of salt. In the case of Judaism, there
were (sometimes still are) many tricks to the system, for example: you could
lend with interest to non-jews, you could have and trade slaves, etc.

I'd assume Islam, being similar to Judaism, uses the same kind of tricks. For
example, after a quick search, I found this:

"The common view of riba (usury) among classical jurists of Islamic law and
economics during the Islamic Golden Age was that it is only riba and therefore
unlawful to apply interest to money exnatura sua— exclusively gold and silver
currencies—but that it is not riba and is therefore acceptable to apply
interest to fiat money—currencies made up of other materials such as paper or
base metals—to an extent."

Source:
[https://books.google.cl/books?id=1MKrCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA23&lpg=PA...](https://books.google.cl/books?id=1MKrCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=%22surplus+value+without+counterpart%22+%22to+ensure+equivalency+in+real+value%22&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=true)

~~~
apta
Thank you for chiming in. I'm aware that Judaism bans interest, but you're
also correct that thier Rabbis made loopholes such that only Jews don't lend
money with interest to other Jews, but they're allowed to lend money with
interest to non-Jews. Christianity bans it as well, but people don't practice
what they preach so to speak.

With Islam, there are no such tricks, because it explicitly calls out tricks
like what you're mentioning and warns people who engage in them. Of course, it
doesn't prevent some people from claiming certain things, but you'd have to
look at the overall consensus. If you ask scholars today, they will tell you
that you cannot deal with interest with fiat money, the consensus is that you
cannot take an interest-based loan or mortgage from a bank.

I can't find the author of the book you cited, but it seems he's misguided and
conflating two things. There was no paper money back during the Islamic Golden
Age, so I'm not sure why he mentions it. Secondly, he seems to be conflating
Riba that applies to certain materials (explicitly mentioned in [0][1]) with
Riba due to loans. The Islamic notion of Riba encomposses more than simply
usury and interest. For example, exchanging 5gm of 22 karat gold for 8gm of 18
karat gold falls under Riba, and is prohibited.

What is permissible is to have exchanges of different types, as mentioned in
those Hadiths. For a modern manifestation of this: I can exchange a certain
amount of USD to a different amount of Euros. However, I cannot lend out $100
and ask them to be returned $105.

[0] [https://sunnah.com/nasai/44/112](https://sunnah.com/nasai/44/112)

[1] [https://sunnah.com/abudawud/23](https://sunnah.com/abudawud/23)

~~~
smabie
The profit and loss sharing instruments used by Islamic banks are structured
in such a way to be _almost_ identical to charging interest.

~~~
apta
Yes, and if you look up the opinion of present-day scholars, you'll find that
many of them call said banks out on it (if it walks like a duck and quacks
like a duck). While I'm not a scholar, I completely agree that it's jumping
around the issue and it is almost certainly interest. It doesn't mean Islam
allows it. This in my opinion, is a manifestation of what I mentioned how the
West pushed their usurious banking system onto Islamic nations, and because
many of those governments were installed by Western nations, now the people
are having a difficult time breaking out of it.

------
drawkbox
Direct payments are better for this very reason. They also become bonuses for
those working. Banks and broken state systems have really caused problems
getting stimulus out as expected.

Lots of people calling for temp UBI like Cuban [1]. It was obvious from the
beginning we needed this.

With everything we learned from the Great Recession 'bailouts/stimulus' we
should have expected this and just not gone the bank route or unemployment
alone. Direct payments takes pressure off everything, unemployment, state
budgets, individuals, mortgage/rent, small business, demand from purchasing
power etc.

[1] [https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mark-cuban-says-
families-s...](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mark-cuban-says-families-
should-get-1000-in-stimulus-checks-every-two-weeks-with-one-big-
catch-2020-05-17?mod=home-page)

~~~
cat199
how would a buggy implementation of payment dispersal relate in any way to any
perceived need for UBI?

~~~
drawkbox
I didn't say buggy, I said broken, sometimes on purpose.

In "Study finds 44% of U.S. unemployment applicants have been denied or are
still waiting" it shows the systems don't work [1]. This is one article, study
or example in many, many reports on this.

Direct payments, at least during the crisis and maybe auto UBI during
recessions, would make it to everyone, not prevent people from weighing going
back to work, not overload state budgets, reduce unemployment, and more. Some
systems like Floridas were meant to not really work at all to minimize usage.

Basically anyone in a state with a bad unemployment state system suffered.
Direct payments gets around all that by using identity and tax system
information.

Direct payments to everyone also get past the whole idea of selective
stimulus. Money to everyone gets to where it needs to be that no central
planning could ever predict from food, gas, housing, insurance, health, etc
[2].

Direct payments during recessions would make the floor higher and bring back
purchasing power demand sooner, or keep it with some semblance of consistency
in times like this.

[1] [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/15/44percent-of-us-
unemployment...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/15/44percent-of-us-unemployment-
applicants-have-been-denied-or-are-waiting.html)

[2] [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/15/coronavirus-stimulus-
checks-...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/15/coronavirus-stimulus-checks-how-
americans-are-spending-money.html)

------
hilyen
If only we saw this coming.... oh wait... Equifax's data breach of 143M
records.

People have been calling for social security number system to be updated. In
what world does it make sense to prove your identity with just a username (ss
#) and not a password as well?

------
mdturnerphys
_. . . a substantial amount of the fraudulent benefits submitted have used PII
from first responders, government personnel and school employees._

Seems like this should have generated some red flags, as public sector
employees haven't been subject to layoffs.

~~~
haram_masala
Makes you wonder if the infamous OPM breach
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach))
has been distributed beyond China.

~~~
kyuudou
No wondering, I just assume that's the case. Like, whatever the Chinese
equivalents of 4chan and pastebin are would be in constant discussion over the
best ways to exploit that information. OPM is a big umbrella over the US
Federal Govt. They even got biometric data in the form of fingerprints.

There are certainly worse things to breach but it's basically HR for the US
gov't. Imagine your company's HR dept getting totally owned, then people using
the CFO's data to get large loans, make harmful business deals or blackwash
someone high-profile.

------
chrischen
That’s funny because my dad has been struggling to get unemployment due to
state bureaucracy (he was working remotely for a company in another state,
which complicates the filing). I guess the same bureaucracy is probably what
enables the fraud.

~~~
mixmastamyk
If you pay taxes in the state, shouldn’t it be enough?

~~~
chrischen
Yes he is entitled to it. The problem was that it was unclear which state he
was supposed to file in (because he works remotely out of state), and one
state's department just said to go to the other state.

------
llarsson
Well, if I am employed in one state, that means I am unemployed in almost 49
others, doesn't it? Time to fill out some paperwork!

For certain things, this perhaps one of them, there are benefits if handled on
a federal level with more oversight.

~~~
unishark
Is that all it takes to get unemployment now? Just an application and they
take your word for it? I thought you needed to get legitimately laid off (i.e.
not quit or be fired for cause) by an employer in the state who notifies the
state of this fact for you, and perhaps who has to pay part of your benefits.

And there's always both upsides as well as downsides to handling things
federally versus state.

------
TeaDrunk
I’m surprised banks literally don’t have the ability check for suspicious
behavior like blatantly having the same account receive multiple unemployment
benefit dollars from a state that the person doesn’t reside in...

~~~
toomuchtodo
That’s not the bank’s responsibility. This is no different than the issues IRS
faced with fraudulent refund activity. Unemployment systems should’ve invested
in KYC-like systems, knowledge authentication, etc.

Simply look at the talent running unemployment departments though. No
engineering mindset, no accountability, hence financial fraud with no
repercussions for government or perpetrators.

For the love of Vint Cerf, please get involved in local government if you’re a
technologist. It is the only way this gets better.

~~~
sokoloff
Most technologists likely have an aversion to anything as backwater
bureaucratic as government “tech” programs. Couple that with pay that _wildly_
trails the market and the outcome is fairly easy to predict I think.

~~~
toomuchtodo
What if the resulting code was open source and someone paid for the effort out
of their own pocket. Non profit 18F style. Might even be able to distill
requirements from existing code if that code can be retrieved with a FOIA
request.

I can empathize with not wanting to work directly for the bureaucracy. There
are alternate paths to success.

[https://18f.gsa.gov/](https://18f.gsa.gov/)

~~~
sokoloff
Interesting idea! I don’t know how to think about the threat model of “pay for
it yourself, and then the government will run your code for essential
services”. I suspect there’s a juicy target there, but it’s something I hadn’t
considered so thanks for giving me something to mull about.

~~~
toomuchtodo
An independent application security assessment would need to be performed
prior to handoff of the code base (with follow ups each time you cut a new
release), but if you can meet the requirements of all 50 states (not trivial,
but also likely not overly onerous), that’s a huge reduction in duplicated
effort.

Glad I could provide something to ponder!

------
ValCanBuild
Same thing is happening with the UK furlough scheme. Government is paying 80%
of people's salaries while they're off work but some employers are actively
defrauding the scheme and telling those people to work...

------
pnw_hazor
The true scope of the fraud will come clear when IRS starts coming after the
named beneficiaries of the fraudulent disbursements.

In WA state (not sure about other states), the unemployment insurance agency
does not automatically withhold taxes from disbursement checks. (It is an
option the beneficiary can choose).

The IRS will come looking for those taxes.

------
jld
I got a letter yesterday informing me I made an unemployment claim. Bummer.

------
lgleason
Not surprising given the creaky state un-employment systems. I would not be
surprised if bank account numbers are compromised as well.

~~~
CodeWriter23
> I would not be surprised if bank account numbers are compromised as well.

I don't that works too well for this kind of scam. What do you do with the
money? ACH it to a totally traceable other account? This scam relies on a
network of trust, that the mules will draw out the cash and take their cut
(and only their cut) and walk the funds to another location for tender.

~~~
elliekelly
That’s what I don’t understand about this kind of scam. It seems like an awful
lot of work. Juggling all of your fake internet significant others or
employees and then building up enough trust to make the ask. I can’t imagine
the payout is that substantial given how much effort would be required.

~~~
CodeWriter23
Think about the mule more like a drug mule. Someone who doesn’t have much to
lose, is recruited by gangsters, work is ok as long as they do what they’re
supposed to do, and they are beaten or killed if they go off script.

------
mostlyjason
It amazes me that there is no authentication provided by governments in the US
to citizens. They just accept a social security number as if it was some sort
of password, when it was never intended for that purpose. Other countries give
citizens an electronic ID to authenticate themselves. It seems this would
prevent hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud and identity theft.

~~~
MattGaiser
> It amazes me that there is no authentication provided by governments in the
> US to citizens.

Vast numbers of Americans would view that as a big step towards
totalitarianism and taking their guns away.

~~~
sershe
How about making the id voluntary to get, but required to get benefits. Want
to get the guvmint out of your life? Sure, then don't ask for unemployment
benefits.

~~~
tptacek
"Voluntary to get, required for some benefits" is another way to say
"involuntary". What is citizenship but a collection of benefits?

~~~
arcticfox
> "Voluntary to get, required for some benefits" is another way to say
> "involuntary". What is citizenship but a collection of benefits?

This is pretty clearly a poor extrapolation. For example, Global Entry. Is
signing up for Global Entry involuntary? It is voluntary to get, required for
some benefits.

~~~
jrockway
You're not getting any intrinsic benefits. If you are a US citizen, you are
allowed to return to the US after international travel. Global Entry doesn't
change any of that.

On average, it does make returning easier, which is nice... but the machines
could be out of order, or you could be flagged for questioning in the usual
manner, etc.

~~~
akerl_
If “making something easier” doesn’t count as a “benefit”, I think that maybe
there’s a fundamental disagreement about what it means for something to be
beneficial.

Global Entry is pretty clearly beneficial for the user, as part of the border
control experience. Whether having things like Global Entry is beneficial to
_society_ is, as `tptacek points on parallel to your comment, a very different
question.

------
ItsAlwaysMe
I received a letter on May 8th telling me that I applied for unemployment
benefits... but of course I did not. I am also in WA state. I filed a fraud
report, so we'll see how it goes. So incredibly frustrating...

~~~
finnh
Me too, I just got one (although it wasn't saying I applied, it was just
referring to my "claim #" and telling me about a retraining opportunity).
Where did you file your fraud report? I've been meaning to but haven't figured
out where to call yet.

~~~
ItsAlwaysMe
I had the same opportunity letter, something about entrepreneurship but also
referenced a claim number.

Here's the link: [https://esd.wa.gov/unemployment/unemployment-benefits-
fraud](https://esd.wa.gov/unemployment/unemployment-benefits-fraud)

~~~
finnh
(thanks - once I typed my comment I thought "hmm I bet I can just _find_ that
form" and lo! it was findable).

Considering whether to also send a paper letter, as those still seem to be
"more official" and the state ESD IT systems are clearly a bag of frowns.

It's good luck that the entrepeneurship letter-sending program actually works
off my real home address, not whatever the scammers may have input. I
certainly didn't receive any other letters from the state regarding my
"claim".

------
tehjoker
Keep in mind the fraud is in the hundreds of millions and the size of the
program is in the hundreds of billions ($260B from the CARES act alone:
[https://www.nelp.org/publication/unemployment-insurance-
prov...](https://www.nelp.org/publication/unemployment-insurance-provisions-
coronavirus-aid-relief-economic-security-cares-act/))

~~~
brentonator
I'll use the food stamps argument: All I see is millions and regardless of how
insignificant that number is with regard to how many the program has helped,
I'm going to argue the whole program should be shut down because my party says
so and uphill bootstraps.

If it's 200M of fraud that's less than a percent. I don't think you can safely
say less than 1% of Americans have had their identities stolen so they've done
a hell of a job if you ask me.

------
bluedino
This pairs well with the high amount of income tax return fraud.

Basically, someone files your taxes for you and steals your refund check.

~~~
MattGaiser
That explains why I see so many "volunteer" tax preparers on various sites.

------
bpodgursky
Doesn't surprise me in the slightest, given that two days ago someone in
Michigan attempted to use my wife's info + email to get unemployment benefits.
We live in Seattle, never lived in Michigan.

Managed to file a fraud claim in this case, but only because they happened to
use her email address for some reason.

------
mensetmanusman
People should look at this as a business opportunity.

Look, states are losing tens of millions of dollars a year in fraud. I bet
they would pay many millions to prevent it with smart data analysis and red
flagging...

~~~
Nextgrid
But it will be outsourced to some bullshit consultancy that will take 10x the
initial budget and end up not delivering anything.

~~~
asciident
True, but part of this higher cost would also be to handle all the
"requirements" from the government from years of accumulated desires from the
people (accountability, supporting minority owners, prioritizing US suppliers,
hiring veterans and the disabled, reporting sexual harassment, etc.). In the
end, it's all one big cycle with each part blaming another, when in reality
this is roughly the best we can do with a system where everyone acts in their
own self interests and agency.

In such a system, doing anything takes a lot of time and money. Look at
extending subway lines in NYC. The unions, negotiations with property owners,
environmental regulations, etc. also impose a major cost and roadblock. Not
saying these are bad things to support, as we do want those things, but we
should recognize that each of these requirements reduces efficiency (probably
exponentially).

------
paul7986
All monies from stimulus to unemployment should've and should be directed
right into taxpayer's bank accounts; those who made less then 75k last year
instantly get the funds. If they are not needed up to the discretion of each
person to do the right thing or not.

The unemployment system was a terrible choice with it's antiquated technology
systems and no surprise tons of fraud going to scammers while many Americans
still haven't gotten their funds to survive on.

------
feross
Duplicate:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23200553](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23200553)

------
joncrane
Interesting that it's the banks that are catching this.

I know we trash banks, and they do some terrible things to customers, but they
have become important partners in fighting financial crime including AML (Anti
Money Laundering) and other crimes.

I'm sure some banks are using ML to detect anomalous transactions, and I
wouldn't be surprised if one or more ML models are what first flagged this
activity as suspicious.

------
fortran77
Every time our Government wants to help people with cash payouts, there's
always massive fraud. You'd think they'd learn.

------
Fjolsvith
Could it be possible that the unemployment numbers being reported in the media
are larger than the actual number of people unemployed at this time? As in,
the economy isn't really in as bad of shape as we are being led to believe.

------
mirekrusin
Jokes aside, blockchain w/zero knowledge proofs could actually help here a
lot.

~~~
austinheap
I'm already on the hook for fixing the in-laws WiFi, printer, and IoT cat
water bowl -- how could this possibly scale to the masses?

~~~
Melting_Harps
> I'm already on the hook for fixing the in-laws WiFi, printer, and IoT cat
> water bowl -- how could this possibly scale to the masses?

IoT cat bowl? Leave it out...

As for how it'd scale, I'd say a look to the past would suggest that much like
we saw with COVID, every State takes an initiative to deploy it [1] based on
each departments need [2]. Hell some States have their own mining operation
they were able to fund through some work/jobs program, and were able to get it
funded through tax money.

Personally, I tuned out when people at our local meetup were pushing for this:
it seemed like government lobbying and I have no interest in pandering to
politicians so I stopped listening--my co-founder was doing enough of that for
her other ventures and I felt disgusted just asking her about it, let alone
doing it myself.

But if I recall correctly, they did manage to pilot test it. Its just that,
while I advise everyone to pay their taxes, I hardly see the novelty or
utility in pitching politicians to see this tech as a viable means to collect
taxes. Especially since the actual talent in this space is already spread far
too thin, as it is.

These were ETH guys, so being the Bitcoin guy (maximalist, as they often
called me) in the room I didn't want to see needless bloat on the network
(after 2017 we all had main-net tx paranoia) so never really bothered to ask
any further questions.

1: [https://statescoop.com/colorado-lawmakers-push-for-
blockchai...](https://statescoop.com/colorado-lawmakers-push-for-blockchain-
in-government/)

2:
[https://choosecolorado.com/blockchain/](https://choosecolorado.com/blockchain/)

------
raverbashing
The ironic part of this is the spam comment (that was not removed from there
on purpose) and most likely is one gear of this fraud system

------
scroot
It's almost like decades of governance by people who say government is the
problem leads to ... inept governing ...

------
gknight
Pardon my ignorance: Could someone explain to me why this is under the purview
of the Secret Service?

~~~
arrosenberg
It's a bit of a historical oddity, but the Secret Service is responsible for
policing counterfeiting and wire fraud. When the USSS was founded in 1865
there was no federal police agency (other than USPIS I believe), so they
handled that particular crime and no one has taken the jurisdiction away from
them.

[https://www.secretservice.gov/investigation/](https://www.secretservice.gov/investigation/)

~~~
gknight
Why I love HN. Thank you!

------
cgb223
Wow Nigerian Scammers have really kicked it up a notch since the “Prince of
Nigeria” days

------
bhewes
Ah this is what happened to the lady I faxed stuff for at the UPS Store. That
sucks.

------
relativitypro
I guess the equitax data breach will lead to real consequences. Just not for
equifax.

------
ejz
Indeed. This complex Nigerian crime ring is best known as PRINCE.

------
WalterBright
I'm not surprised this is happening in Washington State. Here the voter
registration requirements are writing a name on a piece of paper, here's your
ballot.

But no voter fraud is ever detected. Hmmm.

~~~
WaxProlix
This has nothing to do with voter fraud, and how easy or hard it is to
register to vote doesn't seem to bear on the topic.

~~~
WalterBright
When they send out ballots with literally zero checking to see if the
recipient is an actual person, that sounds a lot like what is happening with
the unemployment benefits.

------
andreskytt
This is a political choice. By choice, the identity system in US is broken.
Therefore, it will be used for personal gain. And fraud scales well with
technology.

------
exabrial
Brought to you by Equifax!!

------
Fiveplus
This is a repost. @dang

~~~
gus_massa
I only see
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990237](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990237)
but it has only 3 points.

From the FAQ:

> _Are reposts ok?_

> _When a story has had significant attention in the last year or so, we bury
> reposts as duplicates. If not, a small number of reposts is ok._

------
bradleyjg
Gee I sure am glad hard working class action lawyers were able to secure me
“highly valuable” credit monitoring services after corporate negligence
allowed my sensitive information to be stolen.

------
12xo
I find it ridiculous that you cannot buy pseudoephedrine without the pharmacy
checking whether you've purchased any quantity of the OTC medicine in any
other state via a inter-agency, multi-state networked solution... And yet this
kind of stuff still exists.

There is more than enough way to solve these problems, but for some f'n reason
there is no will...

~~~
verst
EDIT: The following may be specific to the U.S. state.

Also ridiculous but only tangentially related: Psychiatrists (or similar
functions) cannot send prescriptions for ADHD drugs (Adderall / Amphetamines
etc) to pharmacies (by any method) [EDIT: at least in Washington State as of
March 2020]. You need to pick up the physical prescription from the health
care provider, then take it to any pharmacy. The pharmacy may not even have
the medication, and certainly will need some time to fill it on the spot.

Of course this is a controlled substance. Somehow this process is imposed by
the DEA perhaps together with the FDA (unsure). I know it's a running joke to
throw out the term Blockchain, but this really is where Blockchain might be a
good solution. Regardless I don't see how a physical piece of paper changes
the potential for abuse or any tracking of the patient. The pharmacy doesn't
exactly make me verify my identity any differently from normal prescriptions
to be picked up.

Also, the prescription is generally only issued for a month. You may get a few
prescriptions with different start dates into the future. So every month you
will make your pharmacy scramble (and waste your own time) because they could
not prepare for your prescription to be filled.

All of this is even more annoying in the time of COVID-19. I need to
unnecessarily have in person interactions for things that can happen remotely
or virtually.

~~~
colejohnson66
> Also ridiculous but only tangentially related: Psychiatrists (or similar
> functions) cannot send prescriptions for ADHD drugs (Adderall / Amphetamines
> etc) to pharmacies (by any method). You need to pick up the physical
> prescription from the health care provider, then take it to any pharmacy.
> The pharmacy may not even have the medication, and certainly will need some
> time to fill it on the spot.

This is not true, at least in California. I take a certain ADHD medicine
that’s a Schedule 2 drug. So I’m limited to 30 day prescriptions with no
refills (so my doctor sends in 3 at a time), but my doctor can most definitely
send them direct to my pharmacy.

~~~
omgwtfbyobbq
That's odd that you can't get a 90-day supply. I'm also on a Schedule 2 drug
for ADHD in California and have gotten a 90-day supply with Kaiser.

Granted, when I was seeing an individual psychiatrist prior to having Kaiser,
she said I could only get a 30-day supply as well and would just send 3 at a
time too. I feel like there is a way to do a 90-day supply that many providers
either don't want to do or don't know about.

Edit - It might be something that's possible with electronic scripts and not
possible with paper.

~~~
texasbigdata
I don't think insurance will allow you to triple fill something and don't
prescriptions for controlled substances expire?

~~~
lnanek2
You don't triple fill all at once. The doctor calls in one prescription for,
say January, then one prescription for February, then one for March. You have
to go to the pharmacy each month, but the doctor only 4 times a year.
Basically the doctor can prescribe a prescription that doesn't start until a
certain time. So the start time on the three prescriptions differs.

~~~
WarOnPrivacy
That's how it's done in FL for non-opioid schedule II. None of our Dr's can
call or transmit Schedule II Rx, they have to be hand carried paper scripts.

Opioids are limited to a 3 day supply tho (with some tight exceptions, for
those patients that can afford a PM Dr).

------
memset
Interestingly, there is exactly one top-level comment right now on HN. (Now
there are two.) That comment, and the ensuing thread is about buying
pseudoephedrine. How does this relate to fraudulent unemployment insurance
claims?

~~~
billme
No, there is not just one top-level comment. Minimize that comment, then click
“more” to see additional top-level comments.

As for the comment you commented on, that comment would be better placed as a
child comment, but it’s about interstate commutation issues, which clearly
relates to the topic.

------
macinjosh
More like massive fraud against tax payers. The State is part of the problem
here, not a victim. Glad the money I earn by laboring is being taken from me
(without consent) and literally handed over to criminals.

Edit: I see some of you just down vote what you don't agree with. That is OK
it doesn't make me wrong. The state is complicit here in funneling tax payer
money to fraudsters due to their own incompetence. This money is being taken
out of the hands of those these programs are for. Anyway, I'll stop making you
uncomfortable with the truth now.

