
Women at Facebook were ordered not to wear 'distracting' clothing, says book - id122015
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/07/01/women-at-facebook-were-ordered-not-to-wear-distracting-clothing/
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sp332
Wow this article is a mess. Launching into speeches about clothing is probably
a bad idea. If done on a regular basis, it can make people feel self-conscious
and judged all the time. But pulling an individual aside for "almost laughably
inappropriate" clothes seems like a reasonable thing to do.

I have to say I don't understand the kitten thing. Is it just that the pun was
in bad taste?

It doesn't say which incident prompted the vandalism complaints, but I
remember people crossing out "Black Lives Matter" which is, let's say,
questionable. This post was flagged dead on HN
[https://techcrunch.com/2016/02/25/mark-zuckerberg-asks-
emplo...](https://techcrunch.com/2016/02/25/mark-zuckerberg-asks-employees-to-
stop-crossing-out-black-lives-matter-on-facebooks-walls/?ncid=rss) Even if it
wasn't that incident, I find it very plausible that they were vandalized on
other occasions. It's also possible that Zuck overreacted, but the article
doesn't really support that.

------
JustUhThought
Let's pause on the details, look at the language. "Distracting" clothing? This
is the definition of victim blaming. "I can't work because she is making me
stare at her butt, and it is her choice to wear that outfit." "She was asking
for it."

If you're a dude or a bro, before you down-vote this, ask yourself whether you
would applaud or criticize the same person for wearing that outfit to
Wholefoods.

The tech industry is perpetually patting itself on the back for have such
innovative workplace policies. Many actions or dispositions condoned or
encouraged by these policies would get you fired at a Wall Street bank. So,
one can not claim that one should know better than to wear these outfits. The
entire point of this "new workplace", which is by definition and design not
well defined, is to _not dictate the individual_ in so far a his or her
personal choices, but simply to create an atmosphere where each individual is
productive.

You ever tried working in an office with a full bar on tap, twenty feet away?
How about in an office that has two ping pong tables nearby in the open space
floor plan? _That_ is distracting. That is also stereotypical Silicon Valley.
But hey, I put on headphones, ignored my strong desire to get bent, and was
productive.

If you're a woman, please chime in here. This is, to my ears, victim blaming.
And this comment will no doubt instantly begin garnering many, many down-
votes. So, please, risk a few karma. But, I'm a guy, so what do I know?

I know that tomorrow I can go into work in shorts small enough to show a bit
of butt and people will think it's funny, and we'll all sit down at our
screens and get back to work. Because, in our culture, I'm not objectified
sexually, I am the patriarch, and I control all thing, except that thing in my
drawers.

~~~
dingaling
> ask yourself whether you would applaud or criticize the same person for
> wearing that outfit to Wholefoods.

My criticism would persist because presumably the same person wears that
outfit to Wholefoods for the same reason: garnering attention.

Wearing baggy cotton trousers and a grubby, loose t-shirt looks scruffy in the
workplace or Wholefoods but has a purpose: comfort.

Wearing Daisy Duke shorts to the workplace or Wholefoods has a purpose:
garnering attention.

Anything that is designed or intended to attract attention is by definition a
distraction. That's where the differentiation arises. It's irrelevant whether
that attention is inappropriate due to objectification, the point is that the
mental effort to overcome the context-shift is distractive.

~~~
sp332
I think you're overestimating how much women are doing for other people
(especially men) and what they are doing just because they like it.

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mc32
So kittens are a metaphor for women? I never knew that. I know sushi in German
sounds a little like pussy [Muschi/Sushi], so maybe next time don't use
kittens, use pictures of sushi -not many will get it. I mean, if they'd chosen
flowers, or dogs, almost anything, one can put alternate meanings to them.

But really, who'd make that connection, given the kitten meme? I think it was
over thinking on her part.

That said, maybe have everyone adopt an Asian style ethic and dress drab for
work. It's work, it's not impress your high school friends with new clothes at
the beginning of the school year.

~~~
sp332
Rubenstein knew about the pun, and confirmed it once Sandberg called him out
on it. Seems working with his team, she was able to understand how their minds
worked and knew exactly what they had done.

~~~
mc32
I get it, but the thing is almost anything can be a stand in for penises or
vaginas. So it's kind of fruitless to try and abate these things.

~~~
zzalpha
Well, you could just use random photos instead of falling back on locker room
euphemisms.

But maybe that's expecting too much.

That said, I have trouble believing this kind of behavior is unique to
Facebook, or even unique to tech.

~~~
sp332
I think the real issue was not having any women on the team, which allows this
kind of behavior to continue constatnly and in the open. And you can't use
random photos - the tech has to learn some kind of category of thing to
recognize.

[Edit: I mean if it was a one-off thing it could have been funny, but if it's
yet another reminder that the company is basically a locker room, that's
insulting.]

~~~
mc32
No women is an issue --but being on a team with women, I know they have
similar tendencies to men. They also like puns and also have a sense of
bathroom humor too --not that that kind of humor is something one might like
to leak into the work environment, but that's what we get from today's culture

In addition, in some way, this kind behavior, whether man or woman, can be a
kind of subversive way to exert self and flaunt power --i.e. "I can get away
with this childishness." and "I can get away with reprimanding/shaming you".
Aka territorial pissings.

------
kyriakos
What other people wear shouldn't affect your performance. Now if they haven't
showered in a month it becomes a different story.

------
ceejayoz
Being talked to / disciplined for booty shorts and leaking upcoming features
seems fairly appropriate.

~~~
op00to
Thank FSM I work at home. I can wear booty shorts that match my beard to work
every day.

~~~
ben_jones
Wait, you wear clothes while working remotely? I only put on a shirt for video
conferencing.

