
Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech - danso
https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2018/12/federal-judge-finds-state-law-governing-who-is-an-engineer-violates-free-speech.html
======
eigenvector
As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various
state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term
'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of
engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if
ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up
billboards on the side of the highway advertising their services as an
engineer.

In every context where the services of a PE / PEng (Canada) are truly
required, no one will be relying on that person's email signature or business
card, they will be asking for the relevant documents to be signed and sealed.

Licensing boards would do well to devote more effort to regulating large
engineering firms which often play fast and loose with the rules, hiring
cheaper, unlicensed people to do most of their work and then have one or two
PEs seal all of it with minimal review.

~~~
Gibbon1
Last time I had a discussion about this my put was that licensing is an
archaic way of doing things.

In short the idea is we trust the PE's signature that everything is copacetic.
In more modern fields like automotive, aerospace and software engineering that
idea is laughable. Everything is about process, audit and testing.

~~~
imgabe
It all comes down to insurance. If your building collapses, the insurance
company will want to know if you did every reasonable thing possible to
prevent it before they pay out on your policy. One of those things is making
sure that the person who designed the building knew what they were doing, i.e.
were they a licensed engineer.

I think most product companies are essentially self-insured. If Ford releases
the Pinto and they get sued, they're paying the settlements themselves, not
filing an insurance claim. So they are free to use whatever method they like
to verify the competence of their employees.

~~~
runeks
> It all comes down to insurance. If your building collapses, the insurance
> company will want to know if you did every reasonable thing possible to
> prevent it before they pay out on your policy. One of those things is making
> sure that the person who designed the building knew what they were doing,
> i.e. were they a licensed engineer.

That has nothing to do with the law, though. Ie. any insurance company ought
to be able to decide for itself what qualifies as "engineer". There's no need
for the state to define this and sue people -- the insurance company can
simply refuse to sell an insurance unless the work was done by people
considered, by the insurance company, as "engineers".

~~~
rtkwe
A law defining what make the difference between an engineer and a professional
engineer though reduces rriction in that context by creating a shared
definition so instead of every insurance client having to provide the
documentation that their eng was a p. eng (according to that insurance
company's definition) both the customer and the insurance company can just
refer to the licensing board to check.

The biggest issue in this case is that the state was using it punatively
against a person who was not providing a p eng sign off or advertising
services as a p eng. Having a regulatory shared definition is fine and helps
smooth commerce.

------
jchw
I both love and hate this story.

Unfairly handing out red light tickets is rotten, but fining the man who
pointed it out is beyond rotten. It's corrupt. There's no question Oregon was
defending its income with that move. Dirty money.

I don't feel like reversing the fine is nearly enough of a response. There was
effectively no punishment for issuing that fine.

But, I'm still pleased with the outcomes Järlström keeps accomplishing. It may
not completely offset the chilling effects caused by the initial
transgressions, but hopefully it can inspire others.

All in all, it definitely reflects very poorly on the Oregon State government.
I hope they're happy with the reputation damage done.

~~~
sneak
The state has a monopoly on violence; they do not need to protect their
reputation. They’re the only game in town.

~~~
EGreg
Why would you want more people to use violence? Mob rule is better?

~~~
cabaalis
OP does not appear to be advocating violence, but is stating a fact. All laws
are enforced by violence. If you disagree, disobey the police at your next
meeting with them. You'll find out quickly who is allowed to assault and who
is not.

~~~
eesmith
The US Flag code is a law but it is not enforced by violence. It is purely
voluntary law.

~~~
anjbe
Yes, but only because the Supreme Court ruled that there’s no way to enforce
the Flag Code without violating the First Amendment, a part of the
Constitution, the supreme law of the land. That’s not the usual case for laws
that are on the books.

~~~
eesmith
Thank you for agreeing with me that cabaalis' statement that "all laws are
enforced by violence" is incorrect. I would agree with "most". I disagree with
"all".

Here's a couple others:

38 CFR 38.630 - Headstones and markers. - "VA will furnish, when requested, a
memorial headstone or marker to commemorate an eligible individual whose
remains are unavailable." \-
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/38/38.630](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/38/38.630)

Who is threatened with violence for breaking that law? At most, a VA employee
can be fired, yes?

36 U.S. Code § 106 - Constitution Day and Citizenship Day -
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/106](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/106)

That's another completely voluntary law ("are urged"), and the Supreme Court
didn't get involved.

------
c3534l
I know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor
unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to
me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English
language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and
maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do
that. But simply claiming by fiat that you have the legal right to sue someone
for not following rules you've decided the rest of the world should follow
despite having no moral or legal justification to do so? That's incredibly
scummy.

~~~
ken
So you think anyone should be able to call themselves "physicians" or
"lawyers" or "police", as those are English words that predate their
professional associations?

~~~
LeifCarrotson
The problem is that there are a small, specialized clique of Engineers who
have professional certification, and a huge population of engineers who don't
have this certification and are not required to have it. The boundary between
the two groups is fuzzy and a bit contentious, with each side seeking to
expand their domain.

There's no such confusion when it comes to the other professions listed, no
huge gray area where everyone calls you a physician even though you only work
with animals: those are veterinarians.

2 of 68 in my graduating class of BSE students took the PE exam. I think
almost all of us now have business cards which include the word 'engineer'.
That's not a gopd position from which some outsiders can selectively declare
that the term is protected.

My experience has been that anyone who claims 'engineer' is protected is
selling something, or at least trying to protect the value of the scheme they
bought into. There are a couple jobs that legitimately need it where the
regulatory environment requires, but they know who they are and know they are
rare.

~~~
someguydave
I have a BSEE (and masters) and I have passed the engineering intern test. I
do use my engineering knowledge for my day job and my business card says
“engineer”. I would consider getting a PE but I literally know nobody with a
PE and I cannot find a good reason to get one other than maybe advertising.

~~~
4thaccount
If you ever want to go into power distribution as an EE you'll need to stamp
plans and projects and won't be promoted passed a certain point without it.
I'd recommend you try to find someone at your work with one (you have to work
under a P.E.) and take the test as soon as you can.

------
ibash
“Jarlstrom’s interest stemmed from a red-light-running ticket his wife
received in 2013. He spent three years analyzing the method for calculating
the duration of a yellow light and found that the formula failed to account
for drivers who must slow down to make a legal turn.”

Quacks like a duck.

~~~
exabrial
Sorry, but you didn't pay the special tax for the special piece of paper from
the "us" government that that magically makes you qualified to do
calculations. Do not pass go, go straight to jail.

~~~
loeg
It's a title licensed by individual state boards, rather than the federal
government.

------
threatofrain
> Jarlstrom, who holds a bachelors of science degree in engineering from
> Sweden, has repeatedly challenged Oregon’s timing of yellow traffic lights
> as too short.

> He was investigated by the Oregon Board of Examiners for Engineering and
> Land Surveying for the “unlicensed practice of engineering,’’ after he sent
> his traffic light calculations to the state board, and identified himself as
> an engineer to local media and the “60 Minutes” TV news program, and in
> discussions with the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and
> Surveying.

Mats Jarlstrom was investigating traffic light policies and was fined $500 by
the state for unlicensed engineering.

~~~
village-idiot
Seems like clear cut retaliation.

~~~
rightbyte
Heh, yeah.

It's not like he have made calculation of bridge steel welds or something
without proper legal papers. He complained over the yellow light timing ...

~~~
deogeo
> It's not like he have made calculation of bridge steel welds or something
> without proper legal papers.

Suppose he had. Suppose he found a bridge suspicious, did some calculations,
and told a newspaper/transport safety agency about it. Should that be illegal,
because the state of Oregon didn't give him permission? Is it okay to very
literally fine someone for 'unlicensed use of math'?

Thankfully the ruling _very_ strongly implies 'no'. It's important to be
precise, or regulation of engineering can become regulation of speech.

~~~
rightbyte
I agree. I meant a calculations for building a bridge, and having
responsibility for it.

~~~
village-idiot
Indeed. I believe that there should be no licensing requirement to look at
these things as a civilian, but the state has a compelling reason to keep
unlicensed engineers from telling construction crews on how to _build_ a
bridge. Different levels of risk.

------
hn_throwaway_99
> cited the state board’s “history of overzealous enforcement actions.’’

Say what you want about the usual insanity of the law in Texas, but they
handle lots of these overzealous professional state agencies in a healthy
manner by means of the "Texas Sunset Commission":
[https://www.sunset.texas.gov](https://www.sunset.texas.gov). Basically, every
few years state boards come up for review to see if their existence is worth
it.

For example, a few years ago the state veterinary board was excoriated as part
of the sunset review process when the board went after a leader in the animal
No Kill movement. It's a good periodic check that these boards don't become
the little fiefdoms that they so often turn into.

~~~
selimthegrim
Please someone set this up in Louisiana. We’ll even make using turn signals
mandatory when changing lanes if that’s part of the deal.

------
seibelj
I would argue that occupational licensing is extremely overdone, even in the
riskier professions like medicine and dentistry. Here is a recent article from
the NYT about the horrible situation of cosmetology licensing:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/business/cosmetology-
scho...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/business/cosmetology-school-debt-
iowa.html)

I'm not saying we don't need occupational licensing whatsoever. But there is
no reason someone can't learn to drill a cavity in 6 months of training. $400k
of dental school debt is not required.

~~~
miker64
I think you underestimate the knowledge and training to do dental work safely.

~~~
seibelj
Maine allowed a special license for hygienists to do extra procedures,
including cavity drilling (if a real dentist is in the building). It is going
fine so far.

[https://www.pressherald.com/2018/02/04/independent-dental-
hy...](https://www.pressherald.com/2018/02/04/independent-dental-hygienists-
may-fill-a-void-but-not-a-cavity/)

However, getting the law changed to allow this has been fought tooth-and-nail,
so to speak:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-unexpected-
polit...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-unexpected-political-
power-of-
dentists/2017/07/01/ee946d56-54f3-11e7-a204-ad706461fa4f_story.html?utm_term=.bf37fdd0b088)

Like all licensed professionals, dentists are part of a cartel ("guild"). Some
guilds are better than others for their members and/or consumers.

~~~
AmericanChopper
I think of those guilds more as the most effective unions in the world. The
reason lawyers, doctors, pilots, etc... are paid so well is because they’ve
successfully limited entry into their fields. They’ve all got arduous entry
requirements, and you can’t operate without the unions blessing. It’s simple
supply and demand after that point.

~~~
ghaff
Two of the three fields you mention are not paid especially well on average.

~~~
stochastic_monk
All three have median salaries of 6 figures.

~~~
ghaff
Senior pilots for the major carriers are reasonably well compensated though
not usually at levels that the typical FAANG developer would get out of bed
for (likely $100-200K). Many regional pilots earn less than $50K and first
officers less.

Partners at big city law firms are obviously very well-compensated. But the
glut of lawyers has been something of a story in recent years and employment
difficulties/low salaries for graduates of second and third tier schools are
the norm.

Neither of these professions are examples of highly constrained supply except
to the degree that there are only so many ex-military pilots and Ivy League
law review grads.

------
Waterluvian
This is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call
myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in
enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an
engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.

~~~
reaperducer
_The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it._

What do they call people who drive trains in Ontario?

~~~
swalberg
In neighbouring Manitoba there's a carve out for locomotive engineers, power
engineers, and certain types of electrical work, as long as they're certified
by their respective bodies and not pretending to be a different kind of
engineer. Didn't see anything in the Ontario act but I wouldn't be surprised
if it were there somewhere.

edit:
[https://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/e120e.php#66](https://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/e120e.php#66)
section J

~~~
swalberg
Just to follow up on my own post, on slide 29 of
[http://peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/23480/la_id/1.htm](http://peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/23480/la_id/1.htm)
there's mention that some of those types of engineers are covered by other
provincial/federal regulations and are exempt as long as they're doing the
type of work they're licensed to do.

------
8bitsrule
Always find people amusing who think identity is built around a person
_currently_ employed because of their skill-set.

I recall talking to a person years ago when I was between jobs as a [job
title].

"What do you do?"

"Oh, I'm a [job title]."

"Oh nice. Where do you [job title] at?"

"I'm not [job title]ing anywhere at the moment."

"Oooooooh, well! Then you're not a [job title]!"

By this logic, you're not a blacksmith if your not pounding out red-hot
horseshoes. Or a doctor if, after 20 years in surgery, you've granted yourself
a two-year vacation in the Bahamas.

In this POV, though, ex-political leaders, ex-military leaders get to keep
their titles. Say what?

Linkletter was right: people _are_ funny.

~~~
dehrmann
Look at all the surnames tied to occupations: Taylor, Smith, Fisher, Miller,
Wainwright, Baker, etc. Not saying it's not funny, but it's nothing even close
to new.

------
MetalGuru
“The record before this Court demonstrates that the Board has repeatedly
targeted individuals for using the title ‘engineer’ in non-commercial
contexts, including core political speech such as campaigning for public
office and advocacy against a local ballot initiative.”

Although I agree with the sentiment of the article, I do think it would be
deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done any
engineering.

“Unlike an “M.D.” or “certified public accountant,” there is no fixed meaning
to the title “engineer,” but many different types of engineers, the judge
found.”

Haven’t really thought through all the ramifications of this, but it could
actually be beneficial for software engineers to have an official
accreditation. It could help develop accountability and best engineering
practices.

~~~
abeppu
> it could actually be beneficial for software engineers to have an official
> accreditation

I've waffled on this, and I'd be curious to hear input from others. On the one
hand, software engineers are building systems which have incredible reach and
impact. It's reasonable to want to ensure these systems are being built by
people with some solid body of knowledge and skills.

However, software engineering as a field changes relatively quickly, and we
hardly ever reach a consensus about the best way to do anything. It's often
somewhat unclear to me whether we're making forward progress at all (because
we keep inventing "new" ways to build the same things). And because software
is in every kind of system, two very skilled and productive software engineers
might actually have very few overlapping tools in their toolbox. Could we ever
agree on what should be part of the official accreditation, and how long would
it be good for?

~~~
logicchains
My university had a "Masters of Software Engineering" course that was
accredited by some European engineering body, and a significant amount of the
content was UML diagrams, OO and writing huge reports. "Engineering" as it is
practiced in other fields seems fundamentally tied to the waterfall approach,
which makes less sense in software.

------
kyrra
Previous discussion from 2 years ago when the man was fined $500 for this.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14197512](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14197512)

------
xupybd
>She directed the state to remove the definition of "engineer,'' from its
state law and administrative rules, and simply restrict who can consider
themselves a “professional engineer,” or a “registered professional engineer.”

I think that distinction is important. Here in NZ engineer could mean a
trained engineer with a 4 year degree or it could mean a fabricator / fitter
turner trained via an apprenticeship.

You also have people like my self. I hold an engineering degree but I have not
pursued membership in my nation engineering body. So I'm not a “registered
professional engineer” as there is no local support for this in the software
field I went into. I'd never call my self a registered engineer but I may
consider using the term to describe my qualifications.

------
pard68
I work in sysops. My employer won't even consider a new hire without at least
two different certificates (not licenses) which use the word "engineer" in
them. I know a number of coworkers who refer to themselves as engineers but
only hold a certificate to acknowledge this. Others have the term "engineer"
in their title at work, and again no license.

Glad to see that the English language is being defended and not being used for
what is clearly state sanctioned bullying.

Maybe I should start using the term engineer...

~~~
pkaye
What kind of certificates? Can I have two of my friends printout the engineer
certificates in my name?

~~~
pard68
RHEL Engineer is one. Another is some networking cert.

------
ivoras
This is all ridiculously country- and culture- specific. For example many
places in Europe have adopted what I think is originally a German idea that
anything vaguely technical, if done professionally, is engineering. So you
have "engineers of chemistry" which is kind of reasonable but also "engineers
of mathematics" which seems odd.

Here, you can call yourself whatever you like but if the company hiring you
requires diplomas or certificates, then you either have them or don't. Because
of that, nobody makes a fuss about it.

~~~
rm445
'Engineer of mathematics' and the like make sense given that academia has been
fairly effective in making society believe 'science' means scientific
research, rather than all of the scientific pursuits including engineering and
manufacturing.

(Talking about language here, not state regulation of professions).

There are employees at the company I work with great job titles like
'mathematician' and 'physicist'. But if the physicist is applying known
principles (obscure ones about photon behaviour, but well-understood
principles) to product development rather than blue-sky R&D, what is their
actual job? - Given many people would think a physicist is a researcher.
There's an argument that the job in question is actually 'physics engineer'.

------
Entalpi
I would argue that anyone with an degree in engineering (and has practiced in
some capacoty as engineer) is an engineer.

------
miker64
Yes, an overly broad law about the use of the title "engineer," the outcome of
this will be laws updated to use the term "professional engineer" and the
scope refocused on commercial context. (as in: You can't claim to be a
structural engineer to get a gig...)

------
sbuttgereit
Glad to see the Institute for Justice winning one. They're one of the
organizations to whom I contribute cash (including just this morning) and find
myself very pleased with their impact.

------
peter_d_sherman
Observation: Freedom of self-description -- is implied by the Constitution's
free speech clause, and so long as there is no intent to fraud anyone by doing
so, it must be permitted...

------
klipt
Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?

~~~
sandov
Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves an alien? a gnome? a horse?

If you can call yourself a horse, then it makes sense that you can also call
yourself a doctor.

~~~
Rjevski
Maybe context should be taken into account?

I have no problems with people calling themselves doctors (whether fake or
real) unless they are doing so in order to gain a certain advantage (trust,
credibility, etc).

I only have a problem when someone pretends to be a doctor if they're trying
to profit or harm people in some way, by for example making medication or
similar.

------
sys_64738
Engineers stake their professional reputation on their designs being up to the
specification required in their field of expertise. Software has all these
disclaimers that its "as-is" to protect against being sued when it goes awry.
True engineers don't have such protections so certainly in software
development the developer should not be called engineer.

~~~
codinger
Ah, the good ole no true engineer fallacy.

------
just_myles
haha this one tickled me:

"What are we going to do about these software guys that call themselves
engineers? We gotta take down Dilbert!"

------
arduanika
IANAL, but I am a lawyer.

------
Ice_cream_suit
Surely laws regarding who can call themselves A Federal Judge violate free
speech too...

~~~
TheCoelacanth
No, because the ruling didn't say that they can't have any regulation of the
term "engineer", just that their regulations were too broad. They are allowed
to regulate "professional engineer" or regulate using "engineer" in specific
commercial contexts, but they can't just prevent someone from calling themself
an engineer regardless of context.

A law saying that you can't refer to yourself as a "judge" would almost
certainly also be unconstitutional, but a law saying that you can't present
yourself as a Federal judge is probably specific enough to pass muster.

------
trestletech
About time!

Jeff, PE, MD, CPA, JD, CFA

