
Fish don't know they're in water - sahillavingia
http://sivers.org/fish
======
brianwillis
This post borrows heavily from the famous "This is Water" speech that David
Foster Wallace gave at Kenyon College. It's well worth a read. Full text of
the speech available here: [http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/david-foster-
wallace-in...](http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/david-foster-wallace-in-
his-own-words)

~~~
sivers
Wild! I don't remember ever having read that, but I must have years ago, and
the metaphor stuck.

Thanks for letting me know. I updated the post to give credit.

~~~
netcan
If you ever want to extend the analogy to include the perspective of the water
here's one to read:

 _"Over the last few years I've regularly been cornered by nervous publishers
or broadcasters or journalists or film makers and asked about how I think
computers will affect their various industries. For a long time most of them
were desperately hoping for an answer that translated roughly into 'not very
much'. ('People like the smell of books, they like popcorn, they like to see
programmes at exactly the same moment as their neighbours, they like at least
to have lots of articles that they've no interest in reading', etc.) But it's
a hard question to answer because it's based on a faulty model. It's like
trying to explain to the Amazon River, the Mississippi, the Congo and the Nile
how the coming of the Atlantic Ocean will affect them. The first thing to
understand is that river rules will no longer apply."

Since you're currently holding a magazine, let's think about what might happen
when magazine publishing is no longer a river in its own right.._

Douglas Adams - The one person we really needed to explain all this stuff to
us <http://www.douglasadams.com/dna/980707-05-a.html>

------
brisance
If Derek were to rephrase the question as, "How many of you would like to work
in government some day?", I would bet almost all 50 hands would go up. The
reason for it is that in Singapore, many regard a government job as one with
the highest job security, best pay and benefits.

Our cabinet ministers are paid millions a year[1]. Obama's allowance is about
what a fairly low official would be paid.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore#Remunerati...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore#Remuneration)

~~~
rdouble
In America (and the UK), government jobs are also the ones with the highest
job security, best pay and benefits.

[http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-
pay_N...](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm)

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8501369/Workers-
in-...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8501369/Workers-in-the-
public-sector-are-more-than-40pc-better-off.html)

~~~
ry0ohki
And yet, perhaps because of the reasons mentioned, having a Government job is
in many ways an embarrassment in this country.

~~~
localhost3000
Wait - Are you talking about the US? If so, how is having a government job an
embarrassment? Gosh, it must be so shameful to work for the White House, the
FBI, the Treasury, Homeland Security, the Military, the CIA, the Senate, the
Justice Department, the Supreme Court...What sap would ever want to be
president? /sarcasm

Even the USPS has more impact than the vast majority of SV
startups...combined. Just sayin'.

~~~
quanticle
What sap would want to be the guy at the DMV counter that has to deal with a
20 year old computer system and loads of irate customers who want their tabs
renewed right this minute? What sap wants to be the guy at the post-office
counter at 11:30 pm on April 14th? Do you really think that TSA screener
_wants_ to feel you up/look at naked pictures of you when you go through the
airport queue?

There are plenty of crappy jobs in government, just like in the private
sector. Romanticizing it doesn't do anyone good.

~~~
localhost3000
I agree wholeheartedly - there are plenty of jobs that suck in any industry
and, likewise, there are plenty of jobs to be proud of. The blanket statement
that "in this country, government jobs are embarrassing" is extremely unfair
and, well, ignorant.

p.s. I do not work for the Gov't.

~~~
ry0ohki
I was speaking as a former government worker who loved his job. I'm not trying
to put down government workers, it's just a fact that unless you are in
something "flashy" like the FBI or CIA most people in the USA think you are
not very ambitious for settling into a civil service career. You don't often
hear people dreaming about being postal workers.

------
rsaarelm
_There was once a wise and venerated fish who preached about water. Water, he
would say, surrounds and supports us. We are all in and of the water, and
where there is nothing else there is water.

Fish came from all over the ocean to hear him teach. 'I have nothing to
teach,' he said, 'only enjoy the water,' but they came anyway, and some of
them began to understand the water, and some of them came to understand it
fully, and were called awakened.

One day a fish came and said 'Teach me of the water'. The teacher said 'I have
nothing to teach. The water is all around us, above and below, and it fills
the spaces where nothing else is.'

The fish frowned thoughtfully. 'You mean this stuff?' he asked, and flicked a
fin so that a wave of water lightly struck the teacher's face.

'Yes,' said the teacher, bowing his head and smiling in acknowledgement 'that
is the water; I see you have attainment.'

'Oh,' said the fish, surprised, 'that's it?'

'That's it.'

'Oh, okay,' said the fish, 'nice weather we're having, eh?'"_

from <http://www.davidchess.com/words/BrokenKoans.html>

~~~
JonnieCache
_> from <http://www.davidchess.com/words/BrokenKoans.html> _

This has cheered me up immensely at the start of the week; I may not have to
kill myself now, and may just affix some of these to my wall instead.

~~~
mattdeboard
Maybe you're joking, maybe not. It's impossible for anyone to know on the
Internet.

Be that as it may, if you're really contemplating suicide, please talk to
someone about your feelings -- or lack thereof -- before you do anything else.
Even if it's just a stranger at a hotline.

------
ThomPete
I first moved to the US in the late nineties and stayed there for 4 years. I
thought I would learn a lot about American culture which I did.

But what I didn't expect was how much I learned about my own (Danish) culture.

I also learned who where my friends, who did I miss, who I could live without.

I swam across the pond from one culture to another and learned that the water
might be different but the fish are more or less the same.

I have to say I liked the new pond better than the old one.

~~~
yardie
I did the opposite swim and have had the exact same experience. I miss some of
my friends but found my family to be much more reliable.

I try to avoid having preference of one pond over another. I now understand
how each system is different and see the advantages and flaws in both.

One thing I try to avoid is "immigrant guilt". I don't know if there is a word
for it but when you move to another country some try to over compensate for
fear of losing their identity, ie. being extra British, or extra American
(this is the one people tend to meet it seems), or extra French. These people
tend to celebrate the national holidays even if they never did before, wear
patriotic or national shirts, or go extra thick on the language.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Unitarians do this, but with religeon. Few are born into it; most are
disaffected from something else. There are said to be 3 phases

1) Boy those {what I used to be} are full of it.

2) So, what's all this Unitarian stuff about?

3) {long delay} I see, I will always be {what I used to be}

------
jerrya
Is there any evidence fish don't "know" they are in water?

I've seen plenty of fish from flying fish, to carp, to sharks jump completely
out of water time after time after time.

The archer fish can accurately shoot (spit at) flies that are out of water and
down them (and eat them) so something within the fish can correct for
refraction.

Salmon can be seen jumping out of water, and against a strong current, they
can be seen swimming very hard, and making little headway or even giving up
ground.

It's not clear to me that fish don't understand they are within water.

citation-needed.jpg

~~~
BrandonM
_Whoosh_

Someone is stuck in Reddit water.

This reply may seem clever and proper from the point of view of someone living
in a Reddit culture, but it is rude and pointless in a Hacker News culture.

We do not place high stock in pointless pedantry or mundane memes. We focus on
intelligent, meaningful discussion that centers around important points in
submissions. Picking a tangential (and historical) analogy to attack does not
further the discussion in any way. This entire thread is a massive waste of
space.

~~~
burgerbrain
Am I the only person that thought jerrya's original comment was quite well
thought out and reasonable, and was only later put off the discussion by other
people attacking him?

If criticisms such as jerrya's are the plague of Reddit, then surely "this is
a bad HN comment" is the plague of HN. And yes, I realize I risk being self-
referential here, but I really think this needs proper calling out.

~~~
BrandonM
I thought jerrya's original comment was reasonable until I got to, "citation-
needed.jpg." I was actually "lucky" that he included that bit, making me
question the relevance of his entire post.

It is not unintelligent or spammy comments that endanger the discourse at
Hacker News. It is comments that seem to be saying something worthwhile that
get upvoted and take up valuable real estate on the comment threads while
being of almost no value that threaten to bring Hacker News too close to the
multitude of other sites out there.

It used to be that the HN comment threads were multiple times better than the
submissions themselves. I would have a very hard time arguing that today.

------
kgermino
This is true even on a much more micro level. As a Chicagoan who recently
moved to moved to Milwaukee (< 100 miles) I'm continually surprised by
cultural differences. There's still a lot the two cities have in common but in
day-to-day living the differences really start to show.

I.e. I meant ion to a random friend in Chicago that I'm bummed there's no way
for me to take transit to work and I get sympathetic agreement. I mention the
same to someone in Milwaukee and they look at me like I have two heads (why
would you want to do that?)

~~~
corin_
Not important but just a small error that always bugs me - _i.e._ equates to
"that is to say", so it shouldn't be used to replace _e.g._ meaning "for
example" - unless that transit story is the entirity of the cultural
differences you talk of.

Sorry, slightly OCDish about this.

~~~
TeMPOraL
It seems to be a common mistake that non-native speakers make. For instance, I
myself have just recently learned (thank you HN!) the difference between
_i.e._ and _e.g._ (somehow I always thought that _i.e._ == _for example_ ),
and since then corrected some friends in that matter.

------
runjake
If you're not familiar with Derek, which wouldn't be hard to believe as he's
not a big self-promoter, you owe yourself to go read the essays on his
website. At worse, you'll grab great little nuggets of wisdom.

He's also very kind and approachable. A great example of a real "rich" person
in this world.

------
danfitch
Love his articles. They may not be 100% his ideas but with a quick article you
can be refreshed and ready to look at the world differently.

------
shawndumas
A like question is to ask kids how they feel about the ~14.7 pounds per square
inch they are experiencing? My kids where very perplexed.

------
happypeter
refreshing article, I love it.

I am from mainland China, a country boy actually.

but I love a bit of uncertainty out of my life. anyway, we are mortal, no one
going to secure you out of death. So what can you lose?

~~~
matt_s
>"no one going to secure you out of death" Maybe some translation showing, but
this is a very insightful observation. People want all the security they can
get, but the inevitable is true for all of us, so better make the most of what
you have.

------
philthy
Entrepreneurship is of course everywhere and all around us. Look how complex
and developed of a black market we have here in the U. S. of A.

------
hboon
_I was speaking to a business school class here in Singapore. I asked, “How
many people would like to start their own company some day?” In a room of 50
people, only one hand (reluctantly) went up._

I live in Singapore, and I wonder which school that is. I can't imagine 98% of
students in that room not wanting to start their own company some day, at all
when they are in business school.

I remember 4 of us planning to start a business when I was in school in
Singapore more than 10 years ago and all 4 of us were in electrical
engineering.

~~~
gommm
I've spent some time in Malaysia (around Penang), and most of the chinese
malaysian I knew wanted to start their own business and considered being an
employee to be something almost shameful... I've never seen a community of
people more entrepreneurial.

I always assumed that it was the same in Singapore.

The part about people living with their parents is completely true though...

~~~
hboon
No, generally Malaysians are definitely way more entrepreneurial than
Singaporeans.

Singapore has a much more stable environment and state-managed vibe. Over
decades, this tends to encourage less entrepreneurial spirit in people here.
This is changing recently, especially with the younger generation here though.

But I'd still be surprise of that kind of response in a business school here.

------
erikb
The interesting thing about this lecture is, that it doesn't actually help you
to see the "water". You maybe understand this fact theoretically. But without
outside experience you will never know in which points you actually just
follow a specific culture.

Personally the lecture I learned for myself, when I made this experience in a
foreign country, is that I am a lot less like "So stupid how this foreigner
behaves." when I see something strange to me. I try now, not to feel too much
like I am something better, because I would never do so.

------
thewisedude
In Sanskrit -> Koopa Manduka [Frog in the well]. I googled it up and found
this link <http://www.balagokulam.org/kids/stories/koopa.php>

It tries to captures the idea that it is very difficult to accept something
that is very radically different from what you are used to.

For eg: In the narrative by Sivers, entrepreneurship is probably not so
important to a different culture!

------
JacobIrwin
It's funny. I feel like my grandparents take it the same way as that classroom
with 50 students. It's a perfect comparison even.

...

..Two generations behind.

~~~
estel
Why do you equate this to being behind?

The generational analogy seems perfectly apt, but that doesn't make out
outlook worse or less sophisticated than the other.

~~~
mattdeboard
>Why do you equate this to being behind?

Because the future is perceived as more advanced than the past, having built
on the notions/achievements/etc., of the past. Arrow of time points in one
direction. (At least for humans)

~~~
pavel_lishin
> the future is perceived as more advanced than the past

This is a _very_ recent development, and it's still not universal. For the
longest time, people believed that things were better in the past, that we are
slowly moving away from a golden age, and that things are getting worse.

Some concrete examples are the biblical Garden of Eden/Armageddon; beliefs in
Atlantis and other mystical places; the admiration for the Greek and Roman
times, especially during the dark ages.

------
elbrodeur
_Think you of the fact that a deaf person cannot hear. Then, what deafness may
we not all possess? What senses do we lack that we cannot see and cannot hear
another world all around us?_ Frank Herbert, _Dune_ , P.40

------
listic
I'm not an American and I never went to business school, but this sounds weird
to me. Isn't _the whole point_ of going to business school to start business?
I guess not, then :)

~~~
learner4life
No, the whole point of going to a business school is to manage a medium/big
business or grow a medium business into a big business. We have not yet
figured out what exactly makes a new business venture succeed (apart from
having heuristics in the most general terms). We have had better luck with the
question of "How do I manage an existing business?" or "How do I grow the
volume of business?" which is what the business schools teach (apart from a
couple of entrepreneurship courses).

------
est
And human don't know they see the fish upside down. To a fish, the ground is
the water level. The fish belly is actually their back.

~~~
corin_
Well that just plain isn't the case. Up and down are relative directions, not
absolutes, and as fish are unable to think like this, we (humans) are the only
ones able to define "up" or "down".

Even for us they are relative, but generally speaking on earth they are
defined either by gravity or by feet and head on a human body standing up.
Either way, whatever way a fish swims, it's not upside down by our
definitions. And however you chose to define it, we still class it by _our_
definition, not by "what might we think if we were a fish capable of human
levels of thought?".

And as to front/back... well that's theoretially described by the direction of
the animal's normal movement. But regardless of that, again if you are
defining a fish, it can only be defined by our grammar, not by their world.

~~~
est
> we (humans) are the only ones able to define "up" or "down".

No, you english speaking guys are the only ones able to define "up" or "down".

