
Ask HN: Why would I want to pay with my phone? - sbt
Dear mobile payment pitchers of HN,<p>Why would I want to pay for anything with my phone, rather than a card or cash? Please enlighten me.<p>Specifically,<p>(1) How is this more convenient than using my card or cash? I don&#x27;t buy the argument that carrying a wallet is an inconvenience. A card takes virtually no space.<p>(2) Why would I want to trust my smartphone, which has a battery life of about a day, with the ability to pay for something in a critical situation. My card and cash does not run out of battery. Furthermore, I have had three different smart phones die on me permanently in the last two years. I don&#x27;t want to be stuck somewhere and not be able to afford a taxi because my phone is dead.<p>(3) Why would I trust information about my purchases with a company like Google. They already know most things about me, but how does it benefit me to also give my purchase data over to them? So they can ad retarget me more easily? Fuck that. What&#x27;s next, my vital signs uploaded to Facebook in real time?<p>Thanks.
======
deftnerd
I'm in the payment space, so I have a few thoughts on this. 1\. Payment
through mobile wallets prevents employees and corporations you're paying from
actually getting access to your card number. This removes the risk of fraud
and theft by employees skimming numbers from your card and from corporate DB
breaches

2\. I am absent minded and often accidentally leave the house without my
wallet and this allows me to still pay for things

3\. Phones might die if you drop them or the battery dies, but I'm a lot more
attached to my phone because I use it several times an hour. I'm a lot more
aware of it and am able to make sure that it's charged and available.
Occasions of it breaking only occur at most once every year or two.

4\. By using my mobile payment app, I have a clear view of my current balances
in one place without having to open banking apps or websites and allows me to
view my current financial profile without having to log in anywhere.

5\. With cards, the company I do business with is able to build purchase data
profiles on me and sell the data onto other parties without my control. With
Apple, I know it's just about their 0.15% processing fee without data mining.
With google, I know it's just for Google's internal analytics and not being
sold onto data brokers for sale to potentially hundreds of purchase analytics
companies.

~~~
marpstar
#2 is a big one for me. As a father of two kids under 4, I can't tell you how
disappointing it is to take the time to load them into the car take them to
the grocery store, only to realize that I've forgotten my wallet while I'm
standing in the produce section.

This happened to me about a month ago, but unfortunately my local grocer
didn't accept NFC payments, so I had to leave.

~~~
mod
I leave the house with 4 things. They go in different places.

Wallet, front left pocket.

Phone, front right pocket.

Keys, back right pocket.

Knife, clipped to front right pocket.

I pat my pockets anytime I'm leaving the house or the car to be sure I have
everything. When I'm missing one I feel...strange.

~~~
organsnyder
Same here (different pockets, minus the knife, plus a space pen and notepad).
I pat my pockets just about every time I stand up. Saved myself quite a lot of
hassle by getting into this habit.

~~~
mod
I couldn't do without the knife, I use it nearly every day for something.
Opening a package, peeling an orange, etc.

What's weird is when I'm not wearing jeans or pants/shorts with pockets--say a
bathing suit. I keep stuff in my hands, then--but I feel really paranoid and I
keep checking and rechecking to make sure I still have my wallet/phone.

When I break this habit, I end up doing things like locking my keys in my car.

------
xianshou
I've paid with Apple Pay, and it feels much more pleasant in comparison.

Cash: Get out wallet, count out cash, get change that I'll probably lose
anyway. I _hate_ small denominations.

Card: Get out wallet, put card in machine, wait 10 seconds for authorization
(I'm in Switzerland - their terminals take longer), sign receipt. I _hate_
signing.

Apple Pay: See prompt on phone, which I'm already holding, with price and card
info. Press thumb to button. Wait 1 second. Done. And I _like_ thumb presses.

Not only does it save half the time on every purchase, but it obeys my
arbitrarily finicky preferences on how I would like to pay. But you know what?
Even if it seems like such a tiny detail, many people share those preferences,
and the difference is more than enough to tip the scales of habit for those
who do.

~~~
reirob
It is now about 4 years that I signed a payment receipt last time. In Europe.
What card was you using? Even the AmEx cards have a chip now.

~~~
joshstrange
In the US I still have to sign things daily. Even the cafeteria where I work
(Well under $10 for every purchase). Fast food you don't have to sign (or at
least you don't have to sign under some limit which I've never hit) but every
store I go to I have to sign (more and more on digital signing pads).

------
arethuza
I can pay for parking here in Edinburgh using the RingGo app - which is
_incredibly_ convenient, means I don't have to hunt for change - which I
rarely have as I mostly pay for everything else with a card.

I love the way it reminds you if your paid for parking period expires and
gives you the option of extending by paying more - all without having to
return to my car.

Edit: I also don't pay for parking very often - which means I'm even less
likely to have change on me or in my car.

Edit2: If somebody allows me to contribute to leaving presents for colleagues
through an app then I could go pretty much cash free!

~~~
greggyb
Regarding Edit2: Splitwise[0] is an app my friends recently introduced me to.
We tend to get together in groups of 6+ and then go someplace for a weekend.
This app made our most recent such trip very easy to split costs on.

[0][https://www.splitwise.com/](https://www.splitwise.com/)

------
blfr
Why would you want to listen to mp3s on your phone? Sansa Clip takes almost no
room and its battery lasts longer.

Multiple personal items have already converged in your phone: notbook,
calendar, Rolodex, flashlight, Game Boy, camera... This is just another one.

Each may not be much of an improvement on its own, but taken together it
really is. People value this convenience so much that they will routinely
accept lower quality of the parts (see the camera).

As for more direct benefits, it will probably be easier to manage. I use my
bank's app a lot as it is.

~~~
nmrm
I think the OP's point is that the phone is never going to _replace_
cash/cards because going without an mp3 player or notebook during a night out
or work day is NBD, but surviving without any access to money can make things
very unpleasant. Also, I'll always need a wallet for ID, insurance info, etc.
What's one more piece of plastic?

So it makes sense I wouldn't want to carry around a phone + an mp3 player. But
if I'm carrying around cash/cards everywhere anyways, the phone needs to have
an actual substantive benefit over paying with plastic. That advantage has to
overcome the perception of privacy violations and the cost of changing
personal habits.

* The days of the average consumer not caring about privacy are, I think and hope, coming quickly to an end. I doubt anyone will give up gmail out of privacy concerns, but any time there's discussion of adopting a new consumer product, average Joe off the street will probably cite privacy as one concern. I don't think the "novelty factor" is enough to win over the average consumer's data these days.

~~~
blfr
If you're very concerned then cash or physical card for redundancy may make
sense. But that's also true of a map for example, yet doesn't hurt adoption of
Google Maps.

And is paying for things really that crucial on a daily basis? I can only
think of minor inconveniences like having to go home before getting groceries
after work. Although that's probably a matter of lifestyle and location.

~~~
IanCal
Well, my card doesn't need a battery but works just like mobile payments (take
out, press against reader, done) whereas google maps has many advantages over
a paper map (i can find exactly where I am, search for things & get traffic
updates).

~~~
blfr
Phone payment app can also feature improvements over a card, like knowing and
showing your balance, helping you track spending, prompting you to use
discount coupons... whatever the provider can come up with.

------
pcarolan
I've had my card replaced three times in the last two years due to data
breaches (Target, Home Depot, undisclosed). Every time I've had to re-setup
all of my subscriptions. If there was no number/cvv/exp date to steal, there'd
be no fraud without them having my phone.

~~~
emodendroket
And why would cell phone payments not be subject to the same problem if they
were as widespread as credit card payments/

~~~
epochwolf
ApplePay uses one time transactions. Even if it's intercepted, you can't reuse
the information.

~~~
emodendroket
So then the problem of having to change the information for any recurring
payments you have is obviated by a total inability to set up recurring
payments? I suppose that's one solution.

~~~
gress
Nope. Recurring payments can use the same token, but that token is not a card
number that can be presented to another merchant if stolen. Also, if a vendor
is breached, only the tokens need be invalidated.

------
phantom_oracle
There's an old adage: Cash is King

Whether they were referring to the debits and credits found in bank accounts
or the actual fiat paper I'm not sure, but holding cash in actual paper
(granted you have a stable government) is in some way a deprivation of total
control and regulation of your life.

The corptocracy is very much similar to government in that they will willingly
hand over data to save their own asses (I don't need proof on this one, cause
it's common knowledge now) and also willingly exploit you through said data to
increase profits.

In some countries people will simply flat out refuse to use even credit cards,
simply cause they distrust their governments, which I think is a rational
move.

Cash also makes life easier for your mom and pop store who can't jump the same
tax loopholes as GooAppFace with their Irish-double-Dutch-cayman-filter
accounting-foo and end up paying a big portion of corporate tax through the
central (regulated and monitored) banking cartel.

At the end of the day, those who use it, trust it and it adds some utility to
their lives.

For those who don't, their is only utility to be lost, which is why they stay
away (and which is probably why I think it equates to most of the world who
stays away).

------
bougiefever
I don't like the loss of privacy with phone payments, but otherwise, it might
be a good option to have available. With credit cards, I never give out any
personal information, such as my phone number or zip code. With a phone, you
don't really know what is leaking out, at least I don't. That being said, I
would probably use it in a bind.

I like cash when possible. Convenience (other than making sure you have it
with you) and privacy are great. Security is a concern, but with most people
carrying credit cards it's gotten better. Everyone assumes that no one carries
a lot of cash any more, so thieves are less likely to be aware that you are a
lucrative target if you look prosperous. If you lose it, you have to
physically track it down to get it back, so that's a bad part. I don't like to
lose things, so I've never lost any significant amount of cash yet.

------
ocdtrekkie
I find myself asking this question. I've found it entertaining to play with.
But unreliable even in the few stores that support it. And I don't want Google
to have more of my info. (And they just bought out Softcard, removing that
option as well.)

------
gress
The convenience argument is hard to make with reason - to some extent, you
have to try it and see if it makes a difference for you personally. For me, it
has changed my shopping behavior at Whole Foods from rare, carefully planned
visits, to more frequent visits to pick up smaller numbers of items.

The reduction in overhead for picking up just a bag of coffee and taking it to
the express checkout feels pretty dramatic, even though it might not be that
much shorter in wall clock time.

Battery life seems like a genuine concern. I have an iPhone 6+ which easily
lasts me all day, but I could see this being an issue on phones with less
battery capacity. I will be curious to see whether the apple watch can still
do payments in it's reserve power mode.

As to trusting Google - that's a personal choice. It clearly doesn't benefit
you for them to have your purchase data, and I wouldn't use a Google owned
payment service for that reason, however there are a lot of people who
experience Google as being able to provide better search or Google Now cards
based on knowing more about them, so would be happy to give them more
information.

------
PeterWhittaker
I was working on my own payment startup idea a few years ago - and paying by
phone was a surprisingly huge marketing bullet for most people. Paying by
phone was a necessary side effect of the real business (crypto based, privacy
protective, a few other things)...

...but what really got people interested was the paying by phone part.

Had I had a real brain, I would have pivoted (or at least held my nose) and
worked on something "Square" or "Stripe" like, to get customers and money and
traction, then added my secret sauce once I was already in the market.

Why was this so compelling? Because most people leave the house with 1) their
phone, 2) their keys, 3) everything else.

If they forget 2, they go back for it right away.

They can be in line at Starbucks or the grocery store or wherever before they
realize they forgot 3. If they can pay by phone, they're good.

Thems of us here on HN who wallet-pocket, key-pocket, etc., are in the
minority. We are in the minority for most things. That's why so many of us
have a problem connecting with broader markets, let alone mass markets, at
least until we realize how to recognize and understand what the majority are
doing.

------
graeme
Slightly OT, but some here might be interested in a minimal wallet. I use
something like this:

[http://toolsandtoys.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/cinch-
min...](http://toolsandtoys.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/cinch-minimalist-
wallet.jpg)

I don't carry cash, just cards. This is much, much smaller than a wallet.
Completely removes the pain of carrying one around.

~~~
iamtew
There's also secrid, they are RFID proof and in metal, nice protection for the
cards. [http://www.secrid.nl/en/](http://www.secrid.nl/en/)

------
jekrb
I'm just going to address your three points with my personal opinions.

1\. From a convenience perspective, it is easier for me to manage payments
from my phone. That's less space being used in my pocket, and less physical
operations that need to be completed for me to pay for something. Yes, an
individual card does not take up much space, but I rarely carry just my debit
card in my wallet.

2\. The battery life of my phone is decent enough for me to not worry all that
much. I recently switched from iPhone 4 to Droid Turbo and find myself only
needing to charge every two days. Also, I use a car charger while I commute if
I'm streaming podcast or music, so for the most part I'm not concerned with my
battery.

3\. Unless you buy things with bitcoin or the like, someone is collecting and
analysing your data. I think Google does a better job at security than POS
readers and vendors. I've already had to replace my card after home depot and
target breaches.

------
Danieru
Honestly now that I've moved to a cash based society I don't even miss my
debit card.

With the debit card paying meant fiddling with an often broken terminal. If my
card got rejected I could be waiting in line at wal-mart going through credit
cards. Even the simple act of having a card rejected (wrong pin, nothing on a
prepaid, or etc) was embarrassing.

The only embarrassing story I have after going cash only was the time I forgot
my _entire_ wallet. I just handed the basket to the clerk and ran home. The
only big concern here is I'm legally required to carry my alien registration
card.

Without a credit card I have no worries of identify theft from highjacked
terminals. Plus unlike Canada you can hand over a 100 dollar bill and no one
bats an eyelash.

I always have coin for vending machines. And cash-on-delivery is still a thing
here.

Everything has just been nicer with cash.

------
centizen
1) Well, if you don't buy it then I don't know what to tell you. But I am
constantly forgetting my wallet and cards, while I rarely if ever forget my
phone. Tim Hortons app has been my only option to pay for lunch more than a
couple times.

2) Nobody (or at least hardly anyone) is advocating eliminating hard currency
or credit cards. Phone payment is just another option. Why do you see this as
an either/or situation?

3) Google is not the only player in this game, and even then I don't think I
share your concerns. Ad targeting based on purchase history has been a thing
for many years at this point, and it's never been an issue for me. If it was
though, I would just switch to Apple's solution.

------
PaulHoule
The trouble with payments is that end users don't see a problem with the
current system.

Vendors hate the system because they'd like to pay less in fees.

Banks like it the way it is but they know they'll need to innovate in some way
to stay on top.

As for Apple, it is one more way to differentiate their products. Note that
they are working with and not against the banks on this one.

And the media? If they had made 1% as much noise about google wallet, which
isn't too different from apple pay there would be an entirely different
conversation. These are the people who get excited about every android game
'console' you can play candy crush on but censor the PlayStation vita which
has real games.

------
jklein11
The two biggest pain points in the payments industry are convenience and
security. Our most secure solution, cash, is pretty inconvenient. You need to
know exactly how much you are going to spend and need to get more from an ATM
or bank. Our most convenient solution is credit cards, but these have proven
to be fairly insecure because one account number is linked to many
transactions which can be duplicated. If paying with your phone could give you
the security of cash with the convenience of a credit card it would be
disruptive. Let's wait to see what happens in the mobile payment space.

------
jonknee
Apple Pay makes credit cards a little more anonymous. The retailer can't
connect the dots like they can with a regular card and you don't end up with a
ton of change in your pocket like with cash.

------
charlesdm
1/ I'm thinking of Apple pay now. The convenience lies in the fact that you
don't have to type in your PIN / sign the transaction receipt. Also, when
paying with cash you get change. Personally, I hate change. But I don't think
I'll be leaving my wallet at home any time soon.

2/ Not all taxis (at least in Europe) have the possibility of paying by card.
Using an app gets rid of that problem. Also, if you're using taxis in a
business context, you get automatic receipts.

~~~
stevedreams
1) Can't you just use a contactless card for this?

2) Are there any taxis you can pay with a phone but not a card?

~~~
charlesdm
1) Sure, that works as well. But most countries don't have contactless cards,
and those that do only allow smaller transactions without entering PIN (i.e. <
£20).

2) There are apps like Uber and Hailo, where you automatically get billed at
the end of your ride. Hailo is used by a lot of London black cabs, and most of
those don't have a card reader in their cab.

Don't think there is an easy answer. If the contactless readers accept both
cards + apple pay, that would be nice. Some people will prefer one over the
other anyway.

I do know I have a significant amount of cards (some personal, some business),
and being able to leave some of those at home is great. At the end of the day
I don't really want to walk around with 10 debit/credit cards for various
purposes. That's one problem Apple pay and these apps solve (to some extent).

------
Igglyboo
> (1) How is this more convenient than using my card or cash? I don't buy the
> argument that carrying a wallet is an inconvenience. A card takes virtually
> no space.

Even if it's not an inconvenience to you that doesn't mean it's not an
inconvenience to anyone else.

I for one dislike carrying my wallet and have opted to get a phone case that
can hold my cards (cc, and drivers license). I'd imagine if I was in a big
city and could pay with my phone I wouldn't need those cards either.

------
slamus
Basically, just look at how Uber changed our way to pay, and apply it to every
daily situation you can imagine: Starbucks, Parking, Restaurants. At first,
the Uber payment process surely didn't sound as important and convenient as it
is in the real world. It also seems that in tech nowadays, every second
virtually "won" in a daily task is another step towards the future. But is it
? :)

------
cujo
Think of it as a stepping stone. Someday you'll likely be able to walk into a
store, grab what you need, and walk out, all without stopping at a register to
pay.

To (3), your credit card company already sells your data to advertisers. I'd
be surprised if the googles of the world don't already have a feed of that
information.

------
doki_pen
It would be nice to need one less things(wallet), but the truth is, you still
have to carry your wallet. Most places still don't accept NFC payment and even
if they did, phones die. I'm not really interested in a wallet that can run
out of battery power and leave me stranded.

~~~
a3n
Maybe some day our driver licenses will be tokens on our phones. Insurance
cards too. And maybe the car's registration will be a token on the car's
dashboard.

So when you're pulled over the cop will just scan your devices. Win win! /s

------
jeromeribot
A lot of the reason is to do with the Cashless Effect - we pay more when we
can't physically see the money.

[http://coglode.com/gems/cashless-effect](http://coglode.com/gems/cashless-
effect)

A device is an even more abstract tool than a card due to it being multi-
purpose.

Jerome

------
13hours
The best payment apps are apps like Uber, where the payment is no longer
visible, and the app adds some other value to the user. I agree that general
payment apps that aim to simply replace cards don't have enough of a value
proposition.

------
emodendroket
And of course this question is exactly why none of these services have taken
off.

------
lwh
For some people #1 is a factor, one less thing to carry is a selling point.

------
pseudometa
Why would you want to use a credit card over cash, or checks?

There are certain advantages. Not in all cases, but having it as an additional
option may afford additional security, anonymity, and faster transactions.

------
user_0001
so we can sell you things you don't need nor want. Gotta keep the juggernaut
rolling.

that or we have to remove the tiny amount of effort people already make to do
things, so they can just sit and consume

#cynic

~~~
cssmoo
Cynical but perhaps right.

All the sales shit I see is about conversion rate. If its only a tiny step
away from accidental to make a purchase then your effort to make that sale is
low. Also if the value is low, impulse purchases are likely. Small purchases
have little concentration on totality so you end up making lots of simple
purchases effortlessly.

Result: Profit.

(don Ferengi ears when reading the line above)

------
joshstrange
* Tokenization (Little to no chance of fraud)

* Much faster than a card or cash

* No signing (In the US we still have to sign for nearly everything)

* One less thing to carry (I hate carrying a wallet)

------
antihero
All of the mobile payment stuff I've seen seems to be about debiting your
account.

Are there mobile payment systems that are linked with a credit card instead?

------
facepalm
Why do I need a purse? I don't want to have to carry a purse anymore.

------
mproud
Minimize fraud with your credit card to the fullest extent.

------
blueskin_
You wouldn't. It's a way for mobile networks and google/apple/MS to muscle in
on the payment market, and for both them and shops to increase the amount of
personal data they steal.

~~~
joshstrange
Yes because CC companies and stores would _never_ do that /s

Apple Pay actually makes it impossible for stores to do this and Apple has
said they don't care about trying to sell/collect your data (and I trust them
more than Visa).

------
antidaily
Tokenization.

~~~
roc
This is the correct answer if you live in the US. Tokenization is massively
more secure than stripe and signature. As long as the phone isn't notably
_less_ convenient than your card, you should want this.

------
WorldWideWayne
I'm with you sbt because I just don't see any real reason for people to use
this. However, I may live in a bubble because I just don't have my phone in
hand all day long. I even leave the house without it occasionally! (The
horror!) I also turn off wifi and mobile data when I'm done using it.

Unless every merchant accepts phone payments, I don't see how anyone could
walk around with just a phone in their pocket anyway, so point #1 may be moot.

Don't worry about deciding on this too much though because I'm sure we'll all
be chipped before too long and then you won't have a choice but to be tracked.
At least things will be convenient though!

