
After protest, Lenovo adds Linux compatibility to Yoga 900 and 900S laptops - donnemartin
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3139812/laptop-computers/after-protest-lenovo-brings-linux-compatibility-to-yoga-900-and-900s.html
======
mappu
Intel submitted a patch to the linux-nvme mailing list to support the original
raid system used in the Lenovo Yoga.

However, the kernel maintainers turned down the patch because the hardware
itself was bizarre, underspecified, and unreliable in common cases.

This is an ongoing story and i expect there'll be a resolution in a few
months.

ML discussion thread is here: [http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/linux-
nvme/2016-October...](http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/linux-
nvme/2016-October/006800.html)

~~~
incompatible
Is the unreliable hardware causing problems for Windows users?

~~~
digi_owl
Nope, because Intel can just push some binary drivers out and everyone will
down it with a gargle.

The kernel patches are refused because the kernel devs expect to maintain the
code for as long as there are devices in active use that need it once allowed
in.

Thus they demand a proper spec for the device behavior so they can test for
breakages down the line. And apparently the patches are already violating AHCI
behavior expected by the kernel.

Or at least that is what i got out of reading the short ML thread.

------
kbenson
> Locking specific hardware to Windows has emerged as an issue in recent
> years. For example, Intel’s Kaby Lake chips support only Windows 10, so will
> AMD’s upcoming Zen chips.

> Another option is to buy Linux-based laptops with the latest Kaby Lake
> chips, like System76’s Lemur laptop, which starts at $699, or Dell’s XPS 13
> Developer Edition, which starts at $949.

So, which is it? Can Kaby Lake chips support Linux or not, because those
statements seem contradictory.

~~~
gpderetta
Misleading line. They do not support any version of window before 10 (that is,
neither MS nor Intel or AMD will release drivers for other windows). Linux
(and other OSs) should support them just fine.

~~~
captainmuon
I'm curious, what do the CPUs need drivers for? I thought x86 processors are
always backwards-compatible, in theory all the way back to DOS.

Or is it the chipset driver? Here also I wonder what would have changed
dramatically since the previous generation.

I've found the only thing I needed to install chipset drivers for was for
mainboard-specific features, like LED and Fan control, and for (back then)
bleeding edge features like USB3. Granted, this was because basic chipset
support was integrated into windows. Still, I wonder what the breaking change
or new feature in Kaby Lake is.

~~~
ajross
It's the "chipset" drivers, yes; but in the modern world all that hardware is
on-chip and not meaningfully separable from the SoC. So sure, x86 code will
run fine on the chip in any OS (e.g. Linux in virtualization under Windows
10). But you still can't boot Linux on it without drivers for the hardware.

In this case it's the SATA storage controller, which is configured by the BIOS
in a mode that isn't compliant with the AHCI spec.

~~~
amluto
> In this case it's the SATA storage controller, which is configured by the
> BIOS in a mode that isn't compliant with the AHCI spec.

Not quite. It's the PCIe bridge, configured in a thoroughly nonsensical way
that makes it pretend that an NVMe device (which is a PCIe device in its own
right) is hidden behind a SATA controller.

------
hd4
Too late, I will never buy Lenovo again, there are too many other reasonable
choices of companies who don't make anti-Linux decisions then backtrack when
they get covered in shit. Once bitten..

~~~
lacampbell
I have a lenovo thinkpad x140e and I love it. It's underpowered and "bulky",
but as a healthy adult I really don't care if a laptop is a few hundred grams
heavier. I've dropped it once or twice as well.

But I am not going to buy a laptop that won't run Linux. have any
recommendations?

~~~
chrisper
>But I am not going to buy a laptop that won't run Linux. have any
recommendations?

Just keep buying Thinkpads. They are fine and support Linux. I would stay away
from regular consumer laptops anyway.

------
tdkl
> This is a Linux-only BIOS, meaning it should be used only by those who want
> to load the OS. If you want to continue with Windows, do not load the
> firmware. “This BIOS is not intended to be used on machines running Windows
> operating systems,” Lenovo said.

One step forward, two steps back.

~~~
Johan-bjareholt
The "Linux only BIOS" also works for Windows though so you can dual boot with
it. The reason why they say it doesn't is because they don't want to spend
money on officially supporting it and AHCI gives a slight performance decrease
from their default RAID configuration.

~~~
wtallis
> "and AHCI gives a slight performance decrease from their default RAID
> configuration."

Is that actually true, or is it really that using Microsoft's AHCI driver
instead of Intel's driver hurts performance? Last time I checked, Intel's
driver could be used even when the controller is in AHCI mode.

~~~
qb45
I've seen speculation that it's about forcing Intel's custom driver which
supports some nonstandard power management features.

[https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html](https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html)

Apparently, there isn't much difference between AHCI and RAID modes in the
hardware itself.

------
adtac
Seriously, why isn't Linux higher on the priority list of vendors? A huge
portion of devs have Linux as their main OS but support is so scarce.

~~~
JamesBaxter
The Stack Overflow developer survey would suggest that's not correct[0].

Mac OS X 26.2%

Windows 7 22.5%

Linux 21.7%

Windows 10 20.8%

Windows 8 8.4%

Windows XP 0.4%

Though it is possible that the sort of developers that use desktop linux don't
use Stack Overflow.

[0] [http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-
survey-2016#tech...](http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-
survey-2016#technology-desktop-operating-system)

~~~
captainmuon
Huh, 21.7% is a surpizingly huge portion in my book. I would have suspected a
much smaller number.

One fifth is a market segment that is large enough to cater for. If you even
put a small team on the task of ensuring that Linux installs on your
notebooks, and make the minimal neccessary changes (like this BIOS change...
or better revert of a breaking change), then you could claim Linux support as
your unique selling point, and grab a huge fraction of those 20%.

~~~
ddeck
_> One fifth is a market segment that is large enough to cater for_

Keep in mind that that's 21.7% of stack overflow users (i.e. developers), not
users in general.

According StatCounter (based on browser stats), GNU/Linux represented 1.44% of
desktop/laptop OS as of last month. Perhaps developers are more likely to use
these laptops in particular, but they're unlikely to be 100% of users.

~~~
Alupis
> Keep in mind that that's 21.7% of stack overflow users (i.e. developers),
> not users in general.

The unfortunate reality is that while this number is largerish, whenever a
company comes out with a linux-based "developer edition" laptop, folks don't
buy it.

The Dell XPS 13, for example, is a great looking machine - but too many folks
were busy buying macbooks to help Dell learn this market segment does indeed
want more products like this.

We need to vote with our wallets, in order to reinforce this behavior.

Perhaps this may change now that developers are feeling disenfranchised with
Apple over the recent model releases.

~~~
peller
To back up a step, why should there even be a "linux developer edition" model?
Why can't they just make a solid laptop to begin with, that also just happens
to support Linux? What's honestly different? The icon on the meta key?

To answer your question, as a picky hardware nut I have yet to see anything
worth paying extra for. Give me a 4lb 15" 1080p matte IPS with user-expandable
RAM and a PCIe m.2 slot, a SATA drive bay instead of a cdrom, _no_ dedicated
graphics card, a non-chiclet keyboard, a high quality trackpad _centered under
the space bar_, and a user-replaceable (hot-swappable?) battery that gets
8-10hrs on a single charge and I'll think about forking out extra money.
Otherwise eff off, I'm happy with used Thinkpads.

It's a tough crowd to please, to be sure, especially when half of us are
perfectly capable and willing to put in the extra effort to get random finicky
component X working.

~~~
Buttons840
I think it was a little bit cheaper because it didn't come with a Windows
license.

~~~
nikanj
It's probably more expensive, as they don't get the moneys from the "Special
Offers" preloaded on the computer.

------
yuhong
I have been thinking about whether the distinction between "consumer" (eg
IdeaPad) and "business" (eg ThinkPad) machines even makes sense. This is not
even limited to Lenovo of course.

------
zeta0134
So if I'm understanding this correctly, Lenovo isn't actively blocking Linux,
they're just using a newer RAID mode in their storage controller that there
are no existing Linux drivers for?

This doesn't seem like that big of a deal actually. It's nice of them to
provide a legacy mode bios, but this will perhaps encourage the community to
write open source drivers for the storage controller in its native mode,
expanding the hardware that the linux kernel can support. That would be a win
win.

~~~
Hydraulix989
Well, they initially only released a custom BIOS with a goto statement added
to jmp out of the disk controller mode setting (which is normally present and
allows the user to change back to AHCI mode). Reverse engineers on the Lenovo
forums discovered this modification while studying the disassembly.

Then, one user patched the BIOS and manually reflashed it using an SPI flasher
and some soldering, and Linux worked just fine by detecting the drive.

Yes, the ideal solution is that Intel gives specs to OSS devs to build a
driver (or even builds on themselves), but the path of least resistance is to
have Lenovo unblock that BIOS setting, which amounts to changing one line of
code, or 15 minutes of one engineer's time.

------
znpy
Woah, that is truly big.

I remember that stuff like this used to quickly be redirected to /dev/null
like five years ago.

Great news then! Something _has_ changed then :)

------
stormbrew
This is interesting, considering I'm running stock ubuntu 16.04 on a lenovo
yoga 900. Didn't have to do any magic at install. I was under the impression
that newer kernels already supported The Thing That Is The Problem. It's
either that or my laptop is magic...

------
shmerl
At least it's something, but good luck getting any refund from them for the
Windows tax. Unless you summon them to a small claims court, they staunchly
refuse to refund you, even if you don't plan to use Windows and don't accept
the Windows EULA.

~~~
zeta0134
Wait, why would they? The Windows license is bundled with the cost of the
computer. You bought the license, whether you plan to use it or not. They are
under no obligation to sell the license separately or offer you partial
refunds, that's not how sales work.

Good on them if they do, but I feel like you'd be laughed out of Small Claims
court. What's your argument? You weren't forced to buy a Lenovo computer, you
could have bought any machine, including one with Linux preinstalled and no
"Windows Tax."

~~~
shmerl
_> Wait, why would they?_

Because they are obligated to. Forced product bundling is illegal - it
violates anti-trust law.

~~~
zeta0134
Hrm! IANAL, I was entirely unaware this was even a thing, and now I'm deep
down the Wikipedia rabbit hole. The more you know!

Looks like the legality of it varies by state / region / country. Maybe it's
not illegal where I live; I'm in South Texas. I'll research it though, thanks!
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_\(commerce\))

~~~
shmerl
This case is especially bad, since you can say it's an anti-competitive
practice which benefits Microsoft - it helps them to retain their OS monopoly.

------
croon
So Lenovo only fixes bad stuff they do after vocal protest. Which time in a
row is this now?

------
equalunique
Those are some nice looking laptops. With this development, I may be getting
one. The 900S with QHD looks like fun!

