
My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I - magnifique
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/kindergartener-virtual-education/615316/
======
dj_mc_merlin
All of these comments make me think HN has never interacted with a 5 year old.
Adults are barely able to make it through a day of Zoom meetings without
feeling drained, how do you expect an almost toddler to react when forced to
sit in front of a screen?

The only reasons adults can do it is years and years of learning impulse
controls and suppression of bad emotions for everyone's good. A 5 year old
does not have these skills, and will obviously act out as they have no other
mechanism of dealing with it.

Also, who said that this article has to have a point? The writer never claims
to propose a solution, she is simply writing out her emotions for others to
hear. Assuming she has been largely isolating, is it all that weird that she
would talk about her experiences online?

~~~
grahamburger
It would be weird to expect young children to sit in long Zoom meetings. Are
people actually doing that? I have 3 kids, the oldest two are elementary-
school age. So far virtually none of their online learning has been video
conference based. The younger one would sometimes do Zoom calls with his pre-k
class at the end of last year, but it was just a few minutes to see his
friends and sing some songs, not really about trying to learn academically.
Both of them have online based activities assigned by their teachers, though.
They are self-paced, somewhat gamified learning platforms (kind of like, but
not actually, ABCMouse.) It's at most 1 hour a day for the younger one and
maybe 2 for the older one, including 20-30 minutes of reading time. This year
they are both doing in person classes two days a week and the rest from home,
but again no Zoom meetings. The teachers are teaching the other half of the
class on the other two days so couldn't really do in-person stuff anyway.

~~~
mordymoop
In the spring, my five year old, who I would call unusually patient for his
age, would sometimes break down crying and beg the teacher to let him leave
the meeting.

One thing that I’m not seeing discussed much is that these meetings are
objectively a dehumanizing waste of the children’s time. Ten minutes to take
roll, while everyone just sits there? If someone did something this pointless
in a meeting of adults, they would be reprimanded.

~~~
barry-cotter
But it’s not pointless. Teaching children to sit still and do what they’re
told by authority figures is what school is for. Pointless busywork is at
minimum half of all schooling. See _Unschooling Society_ , _The Underground
History of American Education_ or any of the many other books taught in
education schools that have had no effect on the practice of education.

School is to submit.

[https://www.overcomingbias.com/2016/04/school-is-to-
submit.h...](https://www.overcomingbias.com/2016/04/school-is-to-submit.html)

------
function_seven
I'm amazed how dismissive all the comments are here. I read the article and it
seems totally normal for a little kid not to be able to do "school" on a
laptop. Kindergarten is so much different than later years of schooling. It's
not about lectures and subjects, or homework and tests. It's about much more
fundamental lessons, interspersed with creativity, socialization, and learning
to be separated from your parents.

These are fundamental qualities that require physical interaction!

You give me the most well-behaved kid, and I'll show you a hellion when I
attempt to sit them in front of a boring "remote learning" session for a few
hours.

~~~
Barrin92
I got similarly dismissive comments once when I pointed to the importance of
PE for child development, not just physically but also social dynamics and
team aspects, confidence building and so on.

HN crowd is a tough audience when it comes to adolescent socialisation, not
everyone benefits from sitting in front of a computer from a young age.

~~~
barry-cotter
PE is not important for child development. Exercise is. PE is a shitty kind of
torture, a crappy simulacrum of doing some kind of physical activity you
actually enjoy and would do voluntarily. In thought I hated sports, in part
because of PE. Exercise is great. PE is an abomination.

~~~
tehbeard
Sweet Jesus, this. The only way I got back into exercise was swimming, because
the only PE association it had was primary school lessons that were calm and
didn't involve shitty peers.

------
actfrench
In my opinion, the issue here isn't virtual learning (the what), the issue is
how we are doing virtual learning (the how). We can't use zoom the way we use
a physical classroom. It's a totally different medium. I teach a group of
kindergarteners online every morning for 3 hours. The first thing we do is
make sure their space is set up to allow for movement. They can jump up move,
around, wiggle, whatever they want. I also take huge advantage of the screen
share feature. If kids have a question about bugs, we look on youtube together
for a great bug video. Every morning they get to pick a video on cosmic kids
yoga, and then we do cosmic kids together. Considering she's the best kids
yoga teacher in the world, we're taking advantage of the online medium to give
them the best possible experience. When I read to them, I also screen share,
so they can follow along (a much better way to get kids to read a long than in
a classroom where I have to hold the book up.). Are there advantages to a
physical classroom? Absolutely. Do we live in an age of technology? Yes, this
is absolutely true. Let's learn to use these incredible tools well with our
kids, rather than just dismissing them because they don't replicate the
classroom experience.

~~~
actfrench
This is how my class is structured and the activities we do.
[https://www.modulo.app/manishamodule](https://www.modulo.app/manishamodule)

Feel free to share with other teachers if it could benefit them. I"d also be
happy to talk to your teacher or anyone else's teacher if they need support on
making zoom more engaging. Also, if other teachers have ideas of activities
that worked well for them, I'd love to hear!

I'll just add that one thing that's been helpful in my group is to try to
focus the zoom on social-emotional learning and then do an "independent study"
together period where kids work on mastery-based learning apps independently,
but with their friends and a teacher there if they get stuck (Math tango is
our favorite!). I find kids learn a lot better with the apps then when I teach
them a lesson verbally and give them a worksheet.

Zoom represents a really interesting challenge for teachers, but there is a
lot of gold to be found if you look!

~~~
zelphirkalt
Zoom does not belong in any classroom, regardless of virtual or physical. It
is proprietary software, which has a back track record on privacy and
security. It is not free software respecting children's and teachers' rights
and freedom.

I find the this reliance on proprietary shitty software annoying and absurd.
Often teachers barely know manage to cobble together virtual classrooms. They
lack information about alternatives and support for setting things up
properly.

~~~
actfrench
I tried a lot of different web conferencing apps and zoom was the only one
that had good enough audio and visual to make it remotely possible to teach
effectively. Google meet was a total disaster with a group of more than 5
kids. But, I was lucky to have parent in my group who were informed about
options and could give me advice in getting going. I think it's great if
teachers can take advantage of emerging and established technology if it helps
them teach well.

~~~
dorchadas
Seriously. I'm a high school teacher and we had a Google Meet training today
and it's just _lacking_ so much compared to Zoom. It's frustrating as hell.

------
learc83
Kids can't learn all day long in a classroom. I don't know why we expect them
to be able to do it remotely. School has always been 1/3 learning 2/3 baby
sitting.

When my parents were kids, they only went to kindergarten for half a day.

~~~
floren
> When my parents were kids, they only went to kindergarten for half a day.

Wait, hang on, is kindergarten all-day now? I was in kindergarten in... 1992,
and it was half a day.

~~~
redshirtrob
I had all day kindergarten in '83\. First half was in English, and the second
half was in French. And no, this was not a private school. This was Cincinnati
Public.

~~~
dghughes
I'm pretty sure I went to kindergarten all day and that was in the early
1970s.

I remember my mother saying how a neighbour forgot it was his turn to pick up
me and my fellow neighbourhood classmates. It was at 4pm after he was off work
and I'm pretty sure I would have started at 8am or 9am.

~~~
pdonis
I would have gone to kindergarten in the early 1970s, but my mom put me in
first grade instead. She told me years later, jokingly, that it was because
kindergarten was only half a day but first grade was all day so she would have
more free time. I'm pretty sure the half day vs. all day part was true even if
it wasn't her real reason (her real reason was that she knew I'd be bored in
kindergarten).

------
pyzon
I can't help but feel that many of the dismissive comments here must be either
from folks without kids, or from people that got lucky with a well-mannered
child. You think those good manners were all your amazing parenting? You
probably deserve some credit, but I think you also lucked out more than you
realize. Haven't you seen parents with multiple kids and those kids have
wildly different dispositions?

I urge you to have more empathy with parents and kids. Kids handling remote
learning badly is such a pervasive complaint right now that it defies logic
that all of these parents are bad parents.

~~~
codingdave
> Haven't you seen parents with multiple kids and those kids have wildly
> different dispositions?

Agreed - I have three kids. One is going to her school in-person. Another sits
on the couch on his laptop for 4 straight hours until he gets his work done,
and refuses to take a break. The last one works in 20-30 minutes sessions,
doing screen time, then taking a break.

If I were to force any one of them to work like the others, it would go badly.
Different people, different ways to work.

------
vinbreau
My daughter started Kindergarten and we're doing remote learning. She' almost
5 years old and can work a computer for the things she needs. But she can't
work a zoom meeting. So I am a teacher's asst. from 8am until 2:30 pm. It's
exhausting and sometimes I take a 2 hour nap afterward. It's hard on her
because until a few weeks ago she would wake up, come into my office with me
and watch shows on a laptop, maybe play some Minecraft. Now I wake her up
instead, and prep her for school, which is in the same office she used to have
fun in. She has been adjusting slowly, but it has not been without breakdowns
on all our parts.

~~~
philsnow
Depending on the state, education isn't compulsory until 6 or 7 years. Would
it be an option for you to just hold off on the structured approach for
another 6-12 months and let her play?

~~~
asldkjaslkdj
That's a scary prospect considering all the studies and news articles that say
that putting your kids in school as early as 4 can result in life-long
benefits.

It's hard to be a parent these days, you feel like nothing you do is ever
"right".

~~~
war1025
> putting your kids in school as early as 4 can result in life-long benefits.

Giving a shit about your kids is mainly what results in life-long benefits.

The sad truth is a lot of parents either don't care about their kids or care
about them only as a proxy of how it reflects back on them.

~~~
Aeolun
I find that hard to understand. Isn’t having a kid something you do exactly so
you have someone to care for and nurture?

~~~
prawn
Yes, and for 51% of the time it's all a priceless, privileged joy. And the
other 49% is you feeling guilty because you are short of time trying to
parent, work, keep and maintain a house; you want to encourage a broader
palate or cook once for everyone but they gripe about what you've cooked,
antagonise each other, mess up the house in creative new ways, etc.

That's assuming you are an engaged parent and intended to have them.

I imagine school is an effective piece of the puzzle because it offers peers
plus dedicated, trained professionals keeping everyone on track without having
to also clean the house, take client calls, cook, etc.

Back up the comment chain though, I think in a year like this and at younger
ages, you can relax any homeschool attempts. Months ago when quarantine peaked
in South Australia, we took our kids out of school and had a very free-form
program. Get up late, make bread together, do a bit of gardening, play Lego,
building challenges, drawing, screen time, etc. Combo of bumming around at
home with practical, learning activities. Fine by the kids and less stress for
parents.

------
tboyd47
I just pulled my own kids out of public school because I can't stomach it
either. I can't in good conscience subject my kids to 6 hours of online class
5 days a week. Whether or not you want to judge me for feeling this way or
call me nasty names, "psychic torture" is exactly how I'd describe the
solution these educators have come up with.

~~~
bcrosby95
Our first week was rough. But our school came up with a much better schedule
for our kindergartener.

Class is now from 8:20-9am, meet in small group with the teacher for 30
minutes (time depends upon your group), then closing instruction at
12:45pm-1:15pm.

The rest of the time is "self study". Basically, you have assignments you need
to do and complete with your kid. You can do it during self study time. Or at
night. Or whenever.

The first week they tried to do 8:20-11:10 (with 10 minute breaks every 50
minutes) of instruction. It really didn't work. This new schedule has been
much more feasible to deal with.

~~~
tboyd47
I imagine most school districts, including ours, will land on something like
what you just described, albeit after a period of jerking parents around.
Since your school was only planning on three hours a day, sounds like they are
more flexible than mine, which demands six. I understand even the most school-
marmiest of homeschooling parents wouldn't impose more than 1-2 hours of class
on 5 and 6-year-olds.

I have been preparing for the possibility of homeschooling all summer, so we
were ready to pull the trigger. I just didn't expect it to be Day 2!

~~~
dorchadas
The district I teach at (high school) is requiring two hours for
kindergartners, three for 1st and 2nd graders, and 4 for all the rest.
Everyone is done by noon, and teachers are there until three to answer any
questions people have while working on assignments. I think for the lower
levels, it definitely might be best.

Though a coworker has a son starting kidnergarden in a neighboring district,
and they're there from 8-2:30, with planned time for recess and lunch.
_However_ , they're only in the main class for 30 minutes at the beginning and
the end, and then each kid goes into a small group instruction with an
instructor, _and_ gets one-on-one time. I'm interested to see how that will
work out overall, as it sounds like it could be a good compromise if you can
get enough instructors.

------
tghw
1\. Online learning is a poor substitute for classroom learning.

2\. Online learning is much harder on parents and kids.

3\. We're in the middle of a pandemic, in a country that has handled it very
poorly.

4\. Israel tried opening schools in May, when their daily new cases were at an
all time low. New cases skyrocketed after opening schools [1], with nearly 50%
of new cases being traced back to schools[2].

5\. Closing schools in the spring is estimated to have saved 40,000 deaths in
the US[3]. At that time new daily cases were significantly lower than they are
now.

Unfortunately, classrooms undo a lot of the measures that have kept new daily
cases from going significantly higher. They create contacts between families
that would not have been in contact otherwise, and as new data comes out, it's
clear that children are just as contagious as adults.

With what we know, as hard as it is, I don't see how we can proceed with
opening schools until new daily cases are much more contained. The alternative
is to have a massive spike in new cases, have schools close again, and be in
the same position with online learning, but with many, many more cases out
there.

[1]
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ees8MesX0AAbDE2?format=png&name=...](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ees8MesX0AAbDE2?format=png&name=900x900)

[2] [https://www.wsj.com/articles/israelis-fear-schools-
reopened-...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/israelis-fear-schools-reopened-too-
soon-as-covid-19-cases-climb-11594760001)

[3]
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2769034](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2769034)

------
einarfd
A lot of people complain about Zoom fatigue, and while on one hand I'm fairly
happy that it is a competitors offering that has ended up with being a part of
that moniker, and not the product I'm working on, it is somewhat unfair to
blame Zoom or the software stack for that. The main culprit for messing up
meetings are the cameras and the microphones on laptops. I'm not sure if there
are any vendors at all, including Apple which is the laptop vendor I use,
which has god quality camera and microphones on their kit. I'm lucky enough to
work in a group where everyone has dedicated video conferencing kit, and this
makes a big difference. The quality gap between someone on system with proper
camera and microphones, and someone calling in on laptop is huge. I get that
not everyone can go out and buy dedicated kit, and maybe the dedicated kit
don't work with you video conferencing vendor. But getting the people you work
with on a decent USB camera with inbuilt microphones, is something everyone
should have a look at. The chances are high it will make your days more
pleasant.

When It comes to five year olds doing schooling over video conferencing. I'm
far from an expert on kids, I don't have kids and I don't want kids. But it
does sound to me like a fools errand, and I'm super happy I'm not going to
participate in that nightmare.

~~~
CydeWeys
You can buy a top-of-the-line $3,000 16" Macbook Pro and it comes with a
garbage-tier 720p webcam that has terrible dynamic range and low-light
performance. It's _embarrassing_. Most Windows laptops at a third of the price
have significantly better webcams.

~~~
ghaff
I assume thinness is part of the problem--my high-end Logitech webcam is about
an inch thick. Also webcam quality was probably just not much of a
consideration until fairly recently.

But, even if someone doesn't more or less set up a studio as I've done to a
degree and some of my colleagues have done, there are some pretty basic things
related to lighting and webcam height that can be done pretty easily by most
people. Though I'd add that comms problems are also a frequent annoyance and
there's not a lot people can do there.

I'd add though that I normally move around my house when I'm working. Sitting
at a desk all day in a "studio" doesn't really work for me.

~~~
bdamm
iPhone cameras are pretty good and they're very thin. Front or back.

~~~
easde
Unfortunately, they're not thin compared to a laptop lid. Especially with the
taper near the edges that Macbooks and many other high-end laptops have. There
are some exotic optical solutions out there that allow for thinner lenses but
I doubt we'll see those in laptops anytime soon.

~~~
ghaff
Cameras are also a really big deal in the context of smartphones. I assume a
lot of silicon is devoted to making them work well with a small sensor in a
smallish footprint. Apple is probably not going to add a couple hundred
dollars to a MacBook BOM (and maybe a bump for the lens) for a better webcam--
at least they wouldn't have before the current situation. Who knows now? Maybe
a top-notch webcam is a selling point. Many people still wouldn't set up
lighting and eliminate backlighting to give it a chance.

~~~
oblio
A top notch camera is not "a couple hundred dollars" on a BOM. Google Pixel 4a
costs $350 for the whole device and it has a great camera, more than enough to
serve as a webcam.

You need a 2.1 MP camera to get 1080p, which the vast majority of laptop
webcams don't do. The last time you could get a 2.1 MP main camera in any half
decent phone was probably back in 2015. Laptop makers just didn't care, it
wasn't a priority for most users before Covid.

------
fredguth
As a parent of a 5-year old myself, it strikes me the lack of empathy in the
HN community. The pandemic is a challenging situation for all parents as there
is not enough information to decide on the best course of action.

IMO, the OP article intention was only to share the pain, so that other
parents know they are not alone in this challenge.

------
chiyc
"I even think Raffi might be able to improve his digital etiquette—to get
better at waiting his turn to speak without slamming the computer shut because
he’s bored, to sit through a lesson without whining or screaming.

But is digital etiquette something I want Raffi to learn at age 5? He’ll have
the rest of his life to figure out the niceties of interacting with people
through a screen. I can’t accept that he should get acclimated to this form of
school."

The author is almost onto something with this comment. I'm not an expert in
this area, but virtual "education" for pre-K seems to miss the point of going
to school for a 4 year old child. I would venture a guess that the impact is
more about socialization and acclimating to the routine of school than
learning things.

~~~
wink
This honestly has me puzzled.

German here, no kids, so not 100% sure how it is today, but to the best of my
knowledge it's still 3-5 kindergarden (no idea why you would do this via
screen) and then school from 6-7 (depends on birth month, etc). And the "this
should be daycare" argument doesn't fly because how would you babysit a 5y old
via a video conference?

Maybe I'm just old, but I don't see anything wrong in not teaching kids a lot
in a structural way before school?

~~~
dorchadas
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you're misinterpreting what kindergarten
is in the States. Kindergarten here is the first year of schooling, and is
associated with primary schools. Generally, 5 is the minimum age to start,
with a cutoff month. Thus, the kids are expected to be taught in the
structural way of school.

~~~
jnwatson
It is sort of structural. Kindergarten is to help kids transition to the
structural aspect of schooling. It is usually very much filled with physical
activity and creativity.

------
mc32
If remote learning is leaving a lot to be desired where kids aren’t really
getting much benefit academically and it’s stressing people out, is there a
possibility to pause education for a year and resume a year from now?

Now, I know there is no guarantee there will be an effective vaccine, but if
not we may learn enough whether heard immunity is enough by then.

Graduating a year later for everyone from K- to-be-seniors in Uni may or may
not be much of a big deal. Lots of people take a year off before uni...

~~~
supercanuck
Sure, but don’t expect other people to follow suit. They will hire private
teachers and remote home school to get ahead.

~~~
fossuser
Get ahead of what?

I’m not convinced any of this remote learning stuff matters that much as long
as parents have money to feed their kids and house themselves.

Canceling remote learning to spend time with the kids and giving them space to
let them learn about something they’re interested in for a year probably does
zero harm and might even be beneficial. I would have loved it.

Obviously bad family situations, and poverty are not helped by this - but
those things are probably made worse by throwing remote learning on top of it.

Wealthy countries should have a vaccine and distribution done by end of 2021.
Waiting that out is what I would do if I had kids.

~~~
mjayhn
I failed 7th grade because my parents were divorcing in the middle of it and
literally everybody including my family acted like it was the end of my school
career and I'd never recover and get a real job and would be SOO behind my
peers.

I'm 100% on the "yeah you can take a year off, it'll be ok or better in the
end" side of things. I can't imagine myself at 13 having to deal with that +
quarantine/2020.

~~~
danShumway
I'm not an expert on education, I'm not going to speculate on the
psychological effects of having a year without school on a kid. I don't think
I'm qualified to do that.

Outside of developmental effects though, by the time you get to college does
it really matter if someone is one year older than another person? Is anyone
going to get rejected from a first job interview just because they're 26
instead of 25?

Plenty of people take gap years before they go to college, so my concern with
taking a year off school wouldn't be, "but how will they ever catch up?" It
would be about the resources that parents are relying on, the developmental
effects of having a routine interrupted to that degree, the ability of parents
to keep working, early socialization, etc...

I think those are all valid concerns, and (again) I'm not going to pretend
that I can speak on them. But I'm not worried about, "some other kid will be
one year ahead."

~~~
treis
You can't push pause on human development, though. Having your first job
interview at 26 instead of 25 doesn't matter. Missing out on a year of
socialization when you're 6 almost certainly does.

~~~
fossuser
You're still taking in input and experiencing the world.

I was really young for the grade I was in which made things harder than
necessary. It would have been easier to be a year older.

You'd still get the socialization anyway, you'd just have one year with a
little less (and I'm not really convinced that remote socialization via remote
learning is particularly helpful, whatever alternative socialization outside
of remote learning is probably just as good or better).

------
btilly
There are very practical techniques for addressing these problems. However
they aren't widely known.

For example if you want to keep a kid still to listen, give them something
good to fiddle with. For example, teach kids how to finger knit. And then have
them do simple finger knitting while they are listening. The finger knitting
is an outlet for the ansies, and they are able to pay better attention, for
longer.

You also have to be more cognizant of kid limitations when you have less
feedback. But we haven't done that. We have kept the same schedule. It is
easier to miss a kid acting out over Zoom. And the combination is bad. We
really need to tell kids to get up and do jumping jacks, come back in 15
minutes with milk and cookies.

~~~
dorchadas
> We really need to tell kids to get up and do jumping jacks, come back in 15
> minutes with milk and cookies.

Honestly, in my opinion we need to do this at school still, especially
elementary level. We're expecting too much out of these kids, even when
they're in the classroom, and it's no wonder we're seeing a rise in issues.
Let the kids be kids, give them longer than 30 minutes of recess (if they even
get that anymore!), give them naptime still, etc.

I'm generally against charter schools (being a high school teacher myself),
but _man_ , I wish I had the funds to start a charter elementary school.
There's so much I would change.

------
actfrench
It's slightly amusing to me that people are upset kids are "forced to sit
still" in zoom as if the didn't have just as much trouble being "forced to sit
still" in traditional classroom environments. The big difference is that
parents weren't around to see how much suffering this very unnatural forcing
of kids to sit still was causing them. A lot of schools have 30 minutes of
recess if they're lucky. All kids, especially kinesthetic learners need to be
able to move to learn. It's part of the process.

~~~
Miraste
While I agree with your broader point, kinesthetic learning isn't real [0],
and modeling education on the idea of learning styles can be harmful [1].

[0] [https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/the-
myth...](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/the-myth-of-
learning-styles/557687/)

[1] [https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2019/05/learning-
sty...](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2019/05/learning-styles-myth)

~~~
lowbloodsugar
VARK might not be real, but ADHD is and if someone attempts to force my
youngest to sit still it doesn't go well for anyone. OTOH let him move while
setting boundaries has worked wonders.

------
rolph
there were these PBS programs called sesame street, the electric company and
even one actually called zoom.

there was little problem with user engagement as the kiddies were glued to it,
and assimilated/imitated the concepts quite readily into playtimes and IRL.
perhaps there is a feature set that could be explored and employed in remote
learning scenarios.

i think that current educators could learn a lot by looking back at the
methods of engagement.

------
learc83
Most studies show that unless kids come from low income families the
differences between kids who go to pre-k and kids who don't are gone by 3rd
grade or so. And for low-income kids it's only advantageous if it's "high
quality" preschool.

I can't for the life of me figure out why you would bother putting your kid
through 6 hours a day of virtual pre-k, when you have to be right there to
watch them anyway.

------
jdmoreira
The problem is not so much that kids can’t handle virtual education as much as
we not being able to care for our kids because we have a jobs. Think about
it... Do you think it’s normal for a human child to be institutionalized just
because his/her parents are working? Where is their hunter-gatherer band when
your kids need it? Nothing about 2020 nuclear family society is normal for a
human child. Nothing at all.

~~~
baq
your points seem to be contradicting each other. hunter gatherers would
naturally have institutionalized child care - when some people go gathering,
some people go hunting and some people stay put and look after the tribe's
children if they aren't ready to do either. this is about as far from a
nuclear family as you can get though, especially if the tribal culture isn't
monogamous and e.g. a child can have many fathers who equally accept a child
as theirs.

~~~
bluntfang
how do the children learn how to pick up roles as a hunter and/or gatherer in
the system you portray?

~~~
watwut
When the kids are big enough to learn something, they take those kids and
teach them.

~~~
bluntfang
What age is that when it comes to something like gathering? Like around the
time to be able to recognize shapes and point out things?

~~~
watwut
When your attention span allows you to be useful and when you are not slowing
down adults.

------
doggydogs94
I expect that the next school year will be a virtual “gap” year. As the author
illustrates, anything we do with remote learning is just wishful thinking.

~~~
organsnyder
Given the amount of brain development that happens at young ages, this is
daunting to consider.

~~~
klipt
Kids spending more time playing outside and some less time on stressful
academics is probably good for them. We didn't evolve to sit sedentary in a
classroom.

~~~
Waterluvian
It is just _insane_ how night and day my 3-year-old is in terms of his ability
to sit and focus, after he has sufficient "go wild" time in the yard,
playground, street, or basement.

I'm not sure how much school has changed, but for me, in the 90s, the ~90
minutes (split into three uneven segments) per day of physical activity was
just not enough. Could have used half and half.

~~~
dorchadas
In the elementary schools in my district, kids are lucky if they get 30
minutes of recess a day (more often it's like 15-20), even at kindergarten.
It's a huge mess, and we're expecting 5 years olds to behave like 15 year
olds. No nap-time anymore either.

------
newshorts
In a way I’m lucky, my daughter is almost 2 so she’s not dealing with long
bouts of screen time yet. In other ways I’m having to somehow be two people at
once, both entertaining her (because she’s too young to do that independently)
and run my meetings finish my work etc. though I suspect I’m not unique.

Honestly, I love working from home and taking care of her at the same time,
but (as evidence of my posting this at 3AM) I can’t continue this much longer.

I have a few more hours of work to do and I need to be up at 8:30AM for a
call. Something has to change and I hate to get political but if we’d handled
things a bit differently in this country, maybe she’d be back in daycare. Do I
want that alternate reality? Absolutely not, but do I need it?

...maybe

------
swayvil
I'm a general contractor. I remodel houses.

A few years ago I worked with an extremely good painter. Second generation
professional painter. Very impressive fellow.

Just by working with him my painting skills went up a couple levels. I'm way
better than I was.

There was no formal instruction. No teaching. Just working together. Seeing
how he does things. Watching him with a brush.

The same thing just recently happened with a drywall guy I worked near. A
superpro. I am MUCH better at mudding drywall now. No instruction occurred.
Just by working near him.

This is an ancient and well-known phenomenon. Call it psychic communication.
Call it mind-melding. Whatever it is, it's real.

And this virtual education is a joke. PAINFULLY bullshit. I advise all
students to blow that time-wasting shit right off.

------
actfrench
A glaring irony for me here is that historically, wealthier families have
significantly more access to online courses. Rather than being the great force
for democratization of education we all hoped for, research shows they are
privileging the elite. What if we worked to expand access to online courses
and improve them for all? [https://edlab.tc.columbia.edu/blog/18957-MOOCs-Are-
Not-the-S...](https://edlab.tc.columbia.edu/blog/18957-MOOCs-Are-Not-the-
Social-Mobility-Tool-We-Hoped-For)

~~~
mcny
> What if we worked to expand access to online courses and improve them for
> all?

I'd really like for everyone to have a home Internet connection that is
symmetric gigabit or better. For some reason, in at least one town in the US,
you can get Comcast Internet access that is gigabit down but only 30 mbps up.
This is not good enough when you have multiple people who are trying to do
things online at the same time. It is all fine if all you're doing is
streaming movies/music (downloading)_but uploading videos or conference calls
by video means we need decent upload as well.

I don't see a solution other than fiber to the home. Would love to see
municipal fiber to be honest.

------
mmm_grayons
I'd agree it would be extremely rare to find a child who does well with
virtual school. The obvious question is, "What is the better option?" The
clinical, disconnected nature of any return to a physical classroom will
result in many of the same disadvantages as virtual school from home. All it
does is basically transfer the burden of child care. This is a difficulty
every parent currently faces, and this article would be a lot more valuable if
it proposed a better option.

------
djsumdog
The schools need to be open. Child abuse ER visits are up 35%[0]. Let that
sink in. If a child goes to the ER for abuse, it's not because they have a
black eye. They likely have broken bones, or are unresponsive. Thirty-five
percent!

Schools provide surveillance into things like child abuse, the need for
hearing aids, the need for speech therapy classes .. and school lunches
provide nutrition standards for many underprivileged children. All of that in
gone.

I know plenty of friends who taught on-line University classes prior to 2020
who told me the students cheat and the courts are pretty much bullshit. You
get out of any program what you put into it, and college students have the
ability to put things into their programs. Children needs socialization with
other human beings.

The threat to children is minuscule. The threat to teachers under 40 years of
age is also not great. We can pay the wages of older teachers and help them
find new roles, quickly remove teachers who become CoV2 positive and find
means to keep the schools open. Closing down schools is the worst idea
possible.

[0]:
[http://adam.curry.com/enc/1593719588.319_scottatlasonschools...](http://adam.curry.com/enc/1593719588.319_scottatlasonschoolshutdowns.mp3)

~~~
kumarvvr
Isn't it sad that as a society, it has come down to schools to provide
security to children, as opposed to their own family.

I think the root cause is the fragmented family system in the US. Marriages
and divorces happen so much that the ultimate sufferers are the children.

A society that is so fragile socially, will eventually collapse.

~~~
scottlamb
> Isn't it sad that as a society, it has come down to schools to provide
> security to children, as opposed to their own family.

It hasn't. Families _are_ the primary way we provide security for children. No
family is perfect but most keep their kids safe. Some don't, all over the
world, so we have checks and balances. People trained to fill that role are
called "mandated reporters". Teachers are arguably the most important mandated
reporters because they spend so much time with the kids every weekday.

And even well-meaning, financially secure parents can miss things like the
need for speech therapy. Teachers know what's developmentally normal, know
what resources are available, etc.

> I think the root cause is the fragmented family system in the US. Marriages
> and divorces happen so much that the ultimate sufferers are the children.

How do the stats compare in some other country that doesn't have as much
divorce?

~~~
kumarvvr
> No family is perfect but most keep their kids safe

Curious, what percentage of families, on average, do you think are "Not
perfect"?

~~~
scottlamb
When I say "no family is perfect", I mean just that: exactly 100% of families
are "not perfect" in how we raise our kids. But I don't mean abuse; I mean we
all make mundane mistakes in how we handle situations rather than being like
the grown-ups on Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, maybe that we plunk the kids
down in front of the TV sometimes when we should spend more quality time with
them, etc.

Keeping kids safe from child abuse is a pretty low bar and most families meet
it. According to one stat I found [1], at least 1% of kids are abused every
year. That's horrible and would be even worse if not for mandated reporters,
but it doesn't mean that schools provide security for kids and families don't.

[1] [https://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/media-
room/nationa...](https://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/media-
room/national-statistics-on-child-abuse/)

------
M277
It's much, much worse in third world countries. Egyptian here.

Tech illiteracy is rampant, and many people don't know even the basics of
using computers. Not only that, but due to poverty, most don't even have
computers and just use mobile phones. For many, this was the first time they
got to use a PC/Laptop. A large group just used mobile phones, though. Then
you have the internet... it's just not usable for live conferencing, so when
they tried it, it was awful.. then the classes were recorded, with low quality
and resolution to have small filesizes for private schools. Most public
schools basically did away with the whole thing and the kids didn't get any
classes at all.

On top of all of that, the educational system (regular education, not the
higher education) here is already bad in-class.

In the end, they just decided to cancel the exams, and had the students do a
pass/fail research paper about a topic. Although most schools basically just
made everyone pass.

Universities were differently handled, though. Also, grade 12 was handled
regularly (the students already don't attend school) with regular physical
exams since it's an important year.

------
enobrev
A good friend of mine who works in the NYC public school system had, what I
thought to be, an excellent idea for how we could handle this situation.

All children of designated [minimum age / grade level] take classes remotely.
The schools then re-open for children beneath that age who need the attention
and dedicated professionals to help them learn, spread out in all the now-free
classrooms that were taken by their upperclassmen.

------
skizm
I'm genuinely curious if we stuck VR headsets on kids, and had the proper
software, if their would be any better results. I'm one of the people who
think there won't be a VR/AR revolution any time soon, but I do think there
are narrow sets of applications and games the benefit A LOT from it. I don't
know if education is one of those, but I'm am very interested in finding out.

~~~
willcipriano
I don't think you'll get kids, particularly young kids to wear those for more
than a few minutes at a time.

------
forgotmypw17
I don't have kids of my own, but I know parents, and I was also parented when
I was a child.

I think part of the problem is that the adult is expected to still put in 40
hours a week while raising a child, which is not easy, especially when you
only have 2 parents.

I was lucky enough to be raised in a family where one parent stayed home, and
it made my childhood so much more richer than if I had gone to kindergarten
and followed the standard programs those years.

My parents remembered the programs from their childhood, and did not want me
in there.

I grew up in USSR, but I don't think it's that much different in the U.S.

"Public education" teaches kids to conform, submit, normalize, and suppress
their own imagination and enthusiasm. I don't think it's worth the
"socialization", which can be accomplished in many other ways.

But even worse, the conditioning forces children to develop an inner dialogue,
something many adults spend the rest of their lives trying to silence.

I am grateful to my parents for letting me have quiet time for thinking and
reflection when I was a child.

------
argc
My daughter is only 1, and has gone to daycare through the entire pandemic,
but I can say with near certainty that if she was a few years older, I would
rather hire a nanny to take her to the park everyday rather than put her in a
virtual kindergarten class. It sounds absolutely awful and pointless. I don't
see how a child could learn anything from it.

------
supergeek133
I read it and ended being not sure what it was about.

Unless you're going to end with a stance of "but we'll get through it because
of COIVD" or "we should go back to school no matter what" I'm a little lost of
the point here.

Nobody is "doing this" to you, it's what we all have to do. Yes it impacts
everyone different, but what's the message?

~~~
dchess
Couldn't agree more. This article fails the "so what" test. What are they
recommending be done instead?

------
anonytrary
We don't understand education at all. I'm seriously worried for the current
cohort. Young children are missing the necessary face-to-face learning and
social relationship-building that being in class provides, but it doesn't stop
there. Some fresh college students are now paying full-price for 100% online
classes, completely missing the college experience in the process, probably
getting a subpar education -- if you're gonna play the "college is a
normalized scam" card, then now is the time.

It's a shame what is happening, and it's not really clear how to fix the
problem. How to safely maintain the social needs of humans during a pandemic
is currently an unsolved problem, and no, Zoom isn't the answer. We'll
probably see heightened suicide and crime rates for the duration of the
lockdowns.

------
whywhywhywhy
Don't see how being "forced to sit in front of a screen" is any different from
being forced to sit in a classroom.

Honestly think if a single good thing comes out of all of this it will be the
rethinking of schooling.

If I have kids no way will I risk their raw potential at the hands of what is
currently considered a teacher.

~~~
bluntfang
>Don't see how being "forced to sit in front of a screen" is any different
from being forced to sit in a classroom.

Really? I mean, I'm not for public schools, but this is a little obtuse don't
you think?

~~~
whywhywhywhy
My point is the whole thing of wanting kids to sit down and be quiet is
flawed.

Look at how much we medicate kids just to sit there nicely and be quiet and
don't fidget in a class, follow the justification backwards and all you get to
is that schools don't know how to deal with how young boys deal with boredom.

School should teach real skills, how to do your own research and how to create
something from nothing and the rest will fall into place.

------
29athrowaway
Zoom is not a replacement for a classroom. You can switch tasks from Zoom to
something else, like a game, web browser, or any other distraction.

But in some ways, Zoom could be better. You can mute people that interrupt the
class, or simply remove them from the meeting, preventing them from disrupting
everyone else. And you have a chat where you can keep asynchronous
discussions.

Yet, schools are far from perfect, and standardization is not necessarily
beneficial. The current way students are grouped results in kids with
behavioral problems being grouped with well behaved students, to the detriment
of both.

One group gets their bad behavior reinforced, and the other group gets slowed
down and demoralized. It doesn't have to be that way.

------
sologoub
Personal counter-anecdote. When I was I think about the same age (5-6), my mom
would take me in the office and occasionally my only entertainment would be a
DOS computer with a few basic games. From what I’m told, I was very motivated
to get to the said games and quickly learned commands and my way around the
command line - skill that turned out to be pretty useful in life. For “Raffi”,
being a true digital native and having command of all of these communication
nuances could be quite valuable in life. Who knows, maybe the “drained”
experience his parents have won’t translate to him in the future because it
will be second nature.

I do fear for the skills of reading a physical book though...

~~~
lucb1e
> I do fear for the skills of reading a physical book though...

Do you need skills for that which are different from reading a computer
screen? I only see limitations like no ctrl+f or hyperlinks, so fewer skills
needed rather than more.

~~~
mmm_grayons
While there are certainly advantages to digital reading, there's also
something to be said for a traditional book. Patience and sustained attention
are developed skills, and we have yet to learn what effects a failure to
practice them at a young age may have on a developing brain.

~~~
lucb1e
Ah, so it's not about reading a book versus some other medium, it's about
patience and sustained attention because a book won't have notifications and
pop-ups. Alright, then we're on the same _page_ :)

------
dec0dedab0de
Here's a crazy idea. Maybe 5 years old is too young for formal education to
begin with.

------
kthejoker2
Father of 3 elementary school students (and 1 cute toddler) weighing in with
actual experience so far:

* Kids have 3 Zoom meetings a day - ~90 minutes in the morning, 30 minutes right before lunch, 30 minutes right after lunch.

* My kids may be outliers, but they are great at self-managing their time, pay attention well, seem engaged, seem to enjoy the format well enough.

* Classmates seem equally engaged and pliant during meeting times.

* Main complaints: technology is still weak overall, curriculum is a little bit too day by day ..

But nothing as drastic as the original article.

------
Legion
My wife teaches 1st grade.

Online instructional hours doesn't begin in their school until 1st grade.
Kindergarten has learning materials sent to the homes.

Online virtual pre-K is just lunacy.

------
apexalpha
Are people really trying to get primary kids to do stuff on Zoom? I mean my
nephews had Zoom classes during the lockdown but it was like 1 hour a day, and
they got assignments for the next hours. Obviously no one expects kids to sit
still behind a laptop for 6 - 8 hours.

Anyone expecting a 5 year old to do virtual education has never met a 5 year
old. I'm sure off that.

------
turtlebits
5 is a crucial age in child development. Get offline and home school. Take a
leave of absence if you really have to. Talk to your employer.

~~~
nxc18
That's nice and great advice for parents who can afford that. Unfortunately
most parents aren't in a position to do that.

I know my parents growing up would have been in a world of hurt if they had to
home school - it was hard enough making ends meet as it was.

This situation is going to really entrench and amplify socioeconomic
inequality - for the first time in generations we could see a world where only
the very wealthy/privileged are able to give their kids a good education.

FWIW 'leave of absence' isn't really a concept for many, many jobs.

------
karaterobot
I sympathize with her difficulty, but this article struck a bad tone for me. I
think it was the tone in which it was written, but it seemed really self-
centered. Everybody is in the same boat right now, but the author makes it
sound like her family is being uniquely imposed upon. The situation is bad,
and schools are doing the best they can under the circumstances.

------
codefreakxff
Wow. Agree with all the other comments. I read the whole article, and there is
some next level self-centered entitlement here that has wholly passed on to
"Raffi" the 5 year old who is only now learning not to deliberately make his
little brother cry, and who has learned that spitting his drink on a laptop
makes mommy and daddy take him to the park. While I want to empathize with the
parents, the fact that they blame remote learning for all their problems
rather than realizing that they have raised a hellion and dumped him on the
poor teachers at school... and are bitter that now they have to deal with
their own child... wow... yeah, definitely not the parents problem. Everything
is to blame on remote learning! We better re-open the schools again so parents
don't have to deal with their children!

~~~
bosswipe
> they have raised a hellion

A five year old is far from having been raised. As a parent of a 6 year old I
know a bunch of other parents that have similar experiences where their kids
are revolting against being forced to sit in front of a virtual teacher for
hours every day.

~~~
Shorel
You can't fix much of that stuff after he is 7 years old. Educate the child so
you don't have to jail the adult. At least that's the common wisdom
grandmothers say in my country.

Some study I found that also mentions the seven-year milestone:
[https://news.softpedia.com/news/Our-Personality-Is-Fully-
Dev...](https://news.softpedia.com/news/Our-Personality-Is-Fully-Developed-By-
the-Age-of-7-151093.shtml)

~~~
james_s_tayler
Well about 1/4 of the prison population has ADHD and half are dyslexic. Female
prison populations also have a very high rate of BPD.

The grandmother's where you're from might benefit from learning about
pervasive developmental disorders and the effects of trauma.

Some people are dealing with stuff that isn't their fault and that they never
got adequate support for.

~~~
lucb1e
BPD is "Borderline personality disorder", for anyone else not familiar with
that TLA.

------
gverrilla
our society is now learning to respect sexual orientation, women, trans, other
cultures and ethnicities, but children everywhere are just treated like slaves
or worst. When I was around 9 I made an oath to never lie to myself and others
and pretend "school time" was fun. It was a fucking prison, and I hated it. We
are still in Middle Ages.

------
indigodaddy
Virtual school/eLearning only makes sense for 2nd graders and up. Perhaps some
bright 1st-graders could excel, but it really just doesn’t work for any
younger than that. This is indeed an unfortunate situation that the world is
in for this age group of young learners.

------
sabujp
I think quick sessions in smaller groups or even 1:1's are better. Give the
kids their tasks/activities to do for the day and get out of their way. Some
administrations seem to have ridiculous requirements that say kids have to be
glued to a screen for X hours a day.

------
d_runs_far
It's not just kids - we ran a week long course online for senior military
commanders - 4 hours a day of structured discussion, another couple hours per
day of self paced - my kid's grade one class was better behaved and more
attentive.

Impulse control is tough for all.

------
war1025
My wife said the years she was home schooled they did school for about two or
three hours a day because that was all that it really required.

I wonder if virtual school would be better shooting for that model.

Get rid of the "dead time". Just teach the lessons and adjourn.

------
timvdalen
Do people here experience a difference in feeling drained between a day of
Zoom meetings and a day of regular meetings? This article is the first time
I've seen this mentioned. For me, a day of regular meetings is just as
draining.

------
ponker
All of this is stupid. For kids too young to distance learn, group them in
fours or sixes and send them to one of the family’s houses to spend all day
doing whatever the fuck they want. You’re not going to teach them math over
Zoom.

------
actfrench
Here's a crazy idea: What if we raised our children to process their difficult
emotions instead of suppress them and stay active and move freely while
working and studying (instead of sitting in a chair at a desk)

~~~
marta_morena_25
Here is a crazy idea that needs to come before this: What if we taught our
adult population to process their difficult emotions instead of suppressing
them and stay active and move freely while working and studying.

Actually, this already falls flat in the first section. At least 90% of adult
fail on that one. How are they supposed to teach something to their children
that they themselves don't even understand? And teaching is usually much more
difficult than understanding something yourself.

Which brings us to "school should teach that". But schools are not designed
for that and teachers are not qualified for that. Hell, it's already an
exception to meet a teacher who can properly convey the meaning of "1+1=2",
not to mention a teacher who can teach children, who are not their own, how to
process difficult emotions. Good luck with that

~~~
dstick
Is there some deeper meaning to 1 + 1 = 2 you could enlighten us on? Most
teachers I’ve met seem perfectly capable at getting at least that across.

~~~
candu
Well, if you want to be _extremely rigorous_, there's always
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica)
;)

Less flippantly: pedagogically, there's a big difference between "here's your
addition tables, memorize them" and "if I have 1 of _anything_ and another 1
of that same thing, I now have 2 of that thing." The latter offers way more
opportunities for further thought: by that logic, if I have 2 things and I
take 1 away, I now have 1 thing! If I have 2 rocks and 2 sheep, I can count
the sheep by laying out 1 rock per sheep! And since I can add more things,
maybe there are more numbers for those amounts of things too? And what about
differently-sized things? Or parts of things? Or...

That's the difference between getting "1 + 1 = 2" across as a literal by-the-
book fact, and getting it across as an invitation to build / connect ideas and
ask further questions.

~~~
jstanley
I'm pretty sure that is already how addition is taught. I'm not a fan of
formal education _at all_ , but I'm not sure what you think schools are
missing here?

------
Animats
"Virtual pre-kintegarden?" That's childcare, not education.

~~~
visarga
Yes, agreed, but parents are desperate. Kids need kids to play with, at least
they see other kids on the screen. It's a really unfortunate situation for the
development of small children.

------
ponker
I don’t think distance learning should exist for kids under 12 or so. Pandemic
has shut schools? Have them group into pods of 6 and go to a different
family’s house every day and just play.

------
rspoerri
Funny, the kid is behaving like the parent. Where could that come from?

------
known
Give your kid a copy of
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HowStuffWorks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HowStuffWorks)

------
jamisteven
"we hadn’t paused to think about how jarring it would be for Raffi, who had
only recently learned that the people in the TV set weren’t tiny puppets." L M
A O

------
golemotron
Daycare has been a part of public education since the beginning. As they
separate, people will be shocked at small the education part is.

------
known
Kids learn a lot from Peers;

------
rubber_duck
I stopped reading since it's obviously just a rant but this seems like it's
about preschool remote kindergarten - clickbaty title

~~~
dang
We'll swap it out for the subtitle, which is a lot more specific.

------
irrational
I honestly couldn't get past the first four paragraphs. The author has...
issues. Personally I wouldn't write an article like this to let the whole
world in on my neuroticism.

It reminds me of the Mark Twain quote "It's better to keep your mouth shut and
appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."

It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear neurotic than open it and
remove all doubt.

~~~
dang
" _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A
good critical comment teaches us something._"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
double0jimb0
While I 100% agree with the intent of the HN guideline, there are times when
calling out crazy as crazy is fully warranted. I believe this is one of those
cases.

I don’t believe parent comment was a “shallow dismissal”, it was an accurate
and “deep” dismissal.

~~~
dang
"I honestly couldn't get past the" is an internet trope. "The author has
issues" is true of everybody. "Neurotic" is calling names in this context [1].
It seems like a shallow dismissal to me. There's another guideline which
applies here too:

" _Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone
says, not a weaker one that 's easier to criticize. Assume good faith._"

Posts about parenting may be the most emotionally triggering of all categories
that come up on HN. As readers, we're all responsible for containing the
reflexive reactions that come up in us when encountering something intense,
and instead of rushing to the comments to dismiss or attack it, waiting awhile
until something more reflective emerges, in which case an interesting comment
may result.

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=reflective%20reflex%20by:dang&...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=reflective%20reflex%20by:dang&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment)

[1] So is "crazy" for that matter. That's an extreme thing to say, and I'm
sure you don't really mean it.

~~~
monkeywork
Are you a moderator here Dang? If not how about you simply report and move on
... looking at your posting history a very large percentage of it is you
trying to tell others how to use the site.

The rules are fine however let those who are charged with enforcing them do so
rather than trying to control others.

~~~
dang
Yes, and lord I can't imagine what a dreadful scold those comments would make
me if it weren't my job to post them.

Sorry for the confusion. We considered putting 'mod' tags beside our usernames
but it just felt wrong, so as with most things about HN, people have to figure
it out as they go, and it's always ok to ask questions.

------
arkanciscan
Watching parents realize that taxpayer funded daycare is the only thing making
parenting tolerable has been my favorite part of the pandemic. It almost makes
up for the taxes.

Downvotes make me laugh harder!

------
entitledParents
I do love how entitled parents are. WAHHHHHH. I want a free babysitter for my
children that I can't stand to be around. WAAHHHHH.

~~~
annoyingnoob
Its about educating the kids, not babysitting. I expect my kids to learn
something at school and socialize. Little kids especially do better in groups
where everyone does the same thing, distance learning is a real tragedy for
these kids. The kids are just reacting to a situation that is out of their
control and they can't fully understand. Its really hard for
parents/caregivers. We have to tag-team it at my house where we have mom or
grandma during the day and dad at night. My son will spend 5 hours fighting
you over 5 minutes of simple work that he can easily do - when he decides not
to do it there is nothing that will motivate him, no reward great enough, no
consequence harsh enough. Its easy to judge others but you never know what
your future might hold.

------
causality0
_hit his parents, hit his brother, broke things, and spat a cup of juice all
over my laptop._

Barring some kind of psychiatric problem like ODD, that's a significant
failure of discipline, the responsibility for which lies squarely on the
shoulders of the parent. I would not trust any kind generalized behavioral
prediction from someone who can't keep a five year old from striking their
siblings and intentionally destroying objects.

~~~
Waterluvian
I thought I was failing as a parent because my 3 year old sometimes _still_
pushes my 1 year old. I feel terrible for the child and for the parent(s) who
have created a _lot_ of work for themselves, the child, and maybe even
society. But I also feel a wee bit of relief of, "okay so maybe I'm being too
hard on myself."

~~~
bcrosby95
The late 3's were tough with our oldest. When our twins turned 6 months she
totally had it out for the boy twin and would near constantly try to hurt him.
It really didn't matter what we did or threatened. 5 minutes after a timeout,
or us taking away something she wanted, she would be back at it again. Oh yes,
she didn't like timeouts - she would kick and scream and cry during those
timeouts. But it didn't matter.

All we could really do was make sure they were physically separated as much as
possible. That helped a lot. But the times they got close, she usually took
advantage and did something to hurt him. E.g. if he was near her path to the
bathroom, she would step on his hand while walking close to him.

Ultimately, she just grew out of it around 4 years old. But it was a really
stressful and unfun time period.

She's 5 now, and the twins are 3. She loves playing with them. Until she
doesn't of course, but even still - for the past 1.5 years she doesn't want to
do _anything_ without them.

------
actfrench
"forced to sit in front of a screen" is the key phrase here. What if we didn't
force them to sit, but allowed them to stand and move about freely, come and
go when they please, have some autonomy and decision making power around what
goes on in class (e.g. share preferences for what they want to learn) and give
them frequent movement breaks (a good set of headphones, an ipad with a wide
lens attached allows that). What if we engaged them more so they were excited
to see what was happening on their screen? Kids aren't any more excited to sit
and do something boring than we are.

The key problem here(and it's not a small one) is that we need to give ALL
kids access to this hardware to support their learning, not just a few. Right
now only 18% of US households have a device. I've seen school districts short
20,000 computers.

~~~
jonahbenton
It's a much bigger question/challenge than lack of hardware.

With all respect, the model this assumes for how kids work... is just not how
kids work. It's not how attention works.

Think about it like a movie. Kids at different ages will sit through movies of
different lengths and subjects. Those movies have production budgets- of
minimum thousands of dollars per second even at the lowest end, and shooting
and editing commitments that are tens to hundreds or more person hours per
video second.

Expecting a _live performer_ to engage not just 1 passive kid but n active
kids with a new show _every day_ over a screen- where every mistake or every
blip doesn't get edited out in post but actually has to be dealt with in real
time, while each kid has their own dynamics, their own family situations,
their own issues PRESENT WITH THEM while all this is going on....

In terms of the quantity of human attention at production time to ensure
consumer engagement- the ratio between a movie and a live person on the other
side of the screen is, like, 1,000,000 to 1.

It is NOT POSSIBLE to solve the engagement problem in the way that remote
school is expected to solve for it and there is no model, resource,
technology, or anything that makes it work.

This is coming from a long time ed tech advocate, having built games and
education platforms and worked in schools and having 3 kids of my own.

What we are doing with remote school is INSANITY.

Unfortunately, the alternatives are also insane.

There is no solving anything. There's no what if. There's no answer.

And more pointedly- it sounds like the poster here does not have kids.

Pro tip, no offense intended- if you don't have kids- don't weigh in on these
issues. You don't know what you're talking about. And you don't have any idea
how much you don't know what you're talking about. It isn't worth it for you
or for anyone else to engage.

Have a nice day.

~~~
Analemma_
The author does allude to this, by mentioning that remote learning is almost
worse than nothing.

Honestly, we probably should just cancel at least the first half of the school
year altogether, but that would mean admitting how utterly dismal our Covid
response has been, and so it is not politically possible. Thus a whole
generation of kids have to deal with this nonsense. It's a shame.

~~~
Sebb767
> that would mean admitting how utterly dismal our Covid response has been

Only if there would've been a better way. While COVID surely could've been
handled a bit better overall, I don't think a lockdown was fully avoidable
(note that it escaped Wuhan while the city was in a lockdown stricter than
anything seen outside of Wuhan) and remote learning is, as shown above, not
ideal either. So I don't think admitting that this school year was bad equals
admitting a bad response to COVID.

