
Scientists Trace Society’s Myths to Primordial Origins - Vigier
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-trace-society-s-myths-to-primordial-origins/
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Natsu
How do we know these actually relate to the same original story and not to,
say, the fact that there weren't quite so many things to do back then but look
at stars and hunt, so there would be a lot of random stories about starts and
hunting, along with other common elements of daily life?

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lgessler
Isn't the answer to this the same as the answer to Jung's hypothesis?

> “Myths are first and foremost psychic phenomena that reveal the nature of
> the soul,” Jung argued. But the dissemination of Cosmic Hunt stories around
> the world cannot be ex­­plained by a universal psychic structure. If that
> were the case, Cosmic Hunt stories would pop up everywhere. Instead they are
> nearly absent in Indonesia and New Guinea and very rare in Australia but
> present on both sides of the Bering Strait, which geologic and
> archaeological evidence indicates was above water between 28,000 and 13,000
> B.C.

(So, the absence of Cosmic Hunt stories in New Guinea, Indonesia, and
Australia would seem to be a counter to your hypothesis, unless for some
reason we could explain why people in those regions thought less about stars
and hunting.)

~~~
noname123
>the absence of Cosmic Hunt stories in New Guinea, Indonesia, and Australia
would seem to be a counter to your hypothesis,

Following the genetics metaphor, the distinctiveness of the myth story in that
region of the world is due to the isolation of the Australian continent that
doesn't allow for a free-flow of genetic information from the rest of the
world and therefore shows a loss of "cultural variation" because only a few
"founders" whose consciousness at the time of their progeniting is not
representative of the diversity of the global human consciousness. (Founder
effect,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect))

Applying Biology/genetics as a metaphor for the transmission of human culture
and ideas is actually an very dangerous and subversive idea, for instance,
following this logic, the most popular religion or dominant culture is not
necessarily the most useful to the host genome, but the best viral "meme" that
can replicate itself while balancing its own replication vs. the viability of
the host (e.g., a malaria that allowed the host and its transmission vector to
slightly evolve partial defenses against it so that it too can survive and
replicate or the benign Herpes simplex virus that has 90% penetration rate).

Human culture/consciousness has lots of garbage, "non-coding" regions that a
virus can replicate its repeat sequences onto the collective consciousness
like say Kim Kardashian's sex tape in our non-coding region for entertainment,
but mutating the essential "coding" regions is trickier, like knocking out the
urge to procreate (see the downfall of the Shakers variant).

Perhaps a much more hopeful idea is that should a virus really turn from
benign to virulent, evolutionary pressure bears down on an otherwise
complacent population to select for the best defense against it; until this
cultural idea is eliminated or the specie is and thus the cycle repeats as
Nature allows for the next host or the virus take over the vacated niche.

~~~
hmsln
> for instance, following this logic, the most popular religion or dominant
> culture is not necessarily the most useful to the host genome, but the best
> viral "meme" that can replicate itself while balancing its own replication
> vs. the viability of the host (e.g., a malaria that allowed the host and its
> transmission vector to slightly evolve partial defenses against it so that
> it too can survive and replicate or the benign Herpes simplex virus that has
> 90% penetration rate).

Many religions (in particular Islam and Christianity) strike me as being just
that. They have features that make them viral (through proselytising, and
sometimes forced conversions), and make it hard for their hosts to get rid of
them (due to social pressure and penalties against apostates). These features
are integral to the success of the religion, and are hidden under
mythological/theological disguise.

The myths act as a vector, and these "features", which are behaviours that can
be very complex (running a religious court system, enforcing those laws,
proselytising), are effectively the payload of the virus. They turn society
into a machine to spread the religion further and protect it, even if this
comes at the cost of other achievements (technological progress, greater
equality between demographic groups...).

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georgecmu
Here's a link to one of the author's academic papers with detailed description
of methodology:

[https://halshs.archives-
ouvertes.fr/halshs-00932197/file/A_2...](https://halshs.archives-
ouvertes.fr/halshs-00932197/file/A_2013.10._A_Cosmic_Hunt_in_the_Berber_sky_-
_Les_Cahiers_de_l_AARS_16_93-106.pdf)

------
whatnotests
Makes me think of Joseph Campbell's work on the Power of Myth[0].

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU&list=PLePFb3rlFb...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU&list=PLePFb3rlFbw4G1aPfn-9HIH5epz0vFXKq)

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panglott
Look at the actual tree chart "Genealogy of Myths". There are numerous
Algonquian, Iroquoian, and Inuit examples from northeastern North America, a
number of examples from southeastern North America, and a small cluster of
cultures from Siberia and the Russian Far East. A common myth transmitted
through North America and possibly the Russian Far East is very plausible—we
have multiple lines of evidence of cultural transmission among the
preColumbian cultures of North America, including language, technology, and
other beliefs.

Outside of that sphere? There's two Tuareg examples from North Africa, two
Basque examples, and the Greek myth, which is represented by four(!)
individual writers. It's certainly possible that there was some transmission
of this myth around the Mediterranean, but... The Greek myth is apparently
closely related to the Ojibwe example from the Great Lakes region(?). Let's
also note that there is no other evidence of any cultural transmission between
these groups and North America before the modern era. This is very
implausible.

Cultural practices can be invented as well as transmitted. How implausible is
it that these represent independent inventions? Well, it's _very_ common to
relate constellations to animals, heroes, or divine beings. The constellations
naturally follow each other through the sky, over the course of a night and
over the course of seasons. Hunting was a primary subsistence activity in
every pre-agricultural culture. These are not ideas that are hard to tie
together.

Note also the likelihood of chance resemblances between languages.
[http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm](http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm)

~~~
vannevar
It's not unreasonable that there should be similar stories, given the ubiquity
of hunting culture and the brilliant night skies. But consider the number of
visible stars and the possible patterns they might be grouped into, and the
number of possible interpretations of those patterns. It seems highly unlikely
that both the Greeks and the Iroquois would independently group the stars we
call Ursa Major into a single constellation associated with a bear. To the
modern eye, it looks nothing like a bear, and the stars comprising it might be
split into any number of combinations to make other constellations. It seems
much more likely that either there was some kind of communication between the
two cultures, or that they shared a common mythological origin that preceded
both: the article's 'proto-myths', accompanied by proto-astronomy.

~~~
panglott
Ursa Major is a very common constellation. It's identified in many way by many
cultures: it's also common it identify it as a plow, cart, or wagon. To me
it's just the Big Dipper.

This is sort of like the birthday problem in statistics: It's overwhelmingly
unlikely that two specific cultures would at random choose precisely the same
identification. But it's extremely likely that of all cultures, there are two
would choose the same identification.

Real evidence of cultural contact between Ancient Greece and the Ojibwe would
be a major breakthrough. But this is just random similarities.

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contingencies
Great article - I shared it with a WeChat history group here in China, and the
reception was great. It's being deployed to Chinese world history students
this week. Also, lovely to see some leading work from the Sorbonne. Yay
France!

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the8472
> Reptiles, immortal like others who shed their skin or bark and thus
> rejuvenate, are contrasted with mortal men and/or are considered responsible
> for originating death, perhaps by their bite. In this context, a person in a
> desperate situation gets to see how a snake or other small animal revives or
> cures itself or other animals. The person uses the same remedy and succeeds.

Interesting. In the epic of gilgamesh (one of the oldest tales preserved in
written form) it is the protagonist who seeks immortality and then has the
plant which is supposed to grant it stolen by a snake which then sheds its
skin.

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charlieflowers
I don't see the connection between biologists analyzing DNA (very precise and
objective) and someone analyzing different versions of stories. With stories,
which aspects you focus on and how you score similarity are highly subjective.

Can anyone who knows about the technique elaborate?

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aaron695
Looks more like cold reading to me.

And to make it worse they would have been translated with a modern viewpoint.

