
Visual Studio 2010 released - dragonquest
http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/
======
javery
Having used Visual Studio for 10 years and even written a book on it I can say
I am totally tired of this huge and bloated IDE and can't wait until I am done
with .NET work or MonoDevelop is good enough to switch. (it's getting close)

~~~
dschobel
Is it slower than any of the other enterprise grade IDEs (eclipse or
intellij)?

I haven't used the later in ~12 months but I don't remember them being
particularly speedy in comparison.

The only things I truly find insufferably slow in VS are the visual designers
which do code-gen "on the fly".

~~~
rbanffy
I am always annoyed when someone says "enterprise grade". What is an
enterprise-grade IDE?

~~~
dschobel
integrated tools to support full software development life-cycle: things like
version control, test runners, parameterizable builds, etc.

plus the option for commercial support.

~~~
albertzeyer
What IDE/texteditor does not have that? (Or can have it via a plugin?)

~~~
rbanffy
Well... Notepad, for instance, is very limited.

~~~
albertzeyer
I would not call Notepad a texteditor. It's nothing else than a textbox.

------
gjm11
"A powerful IDE that ensures quality code", they say. Now _that_ would be
worth paying money for. If it were possible. Which it isn't.

~~~
dschobel
That's probably a reference to their new Code Contracts feature:

 _Code Contracts provide a language-agnostic way to express coding assumptions
in .NET programs. The contracts take the form of pre-conditions, post-
conditions, and object invariants. Contracts act as checked documentation of
your external and internal APIs._

<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/dd491992.aspx>

~~~
gjm11
Jolly good, and I'm all in favour of better tool support for contracts, but
that still can't "ensure quality code".

(If whoever thought my comment needed downvoting would like to explain why --
because it's too obvious? because it's wrong? because there's nothing at all
wrong with a major software vendor making totally false and unreasonable
claims in their promotional materials? -- then I am, seriously although not
literally, all ears.)

~~~
queensnake
I didn't vote you down but, their claim is true at a micro level: I ensure
that you give me this, whereupon you can be sure I'll give you that (or
exceptions will be thrown). Plus, it's maybe a waste of scoffing to scoff at
marketing hype.

Poor Eiffel; its doom was to lead the way, and get picked apart by its
children. Maybe if it hadn't looked like Pascal it might have done better.
That said, I'm really surprised that design by contract hasn't been
incorporated more widely, before now.

------
kentosi
I know that this might sound like an attack, but it's not. I'm just asking out
of curiosity: If you want to code in Java, there are highly sophisticated IDEs
you can download and code in for free (eg - eclipse). The same for Mac
(Xcode).

When MS bought out .NET - was there any particular IDE or language development
environment that was distributed for free to encourage (especially young)
developers to code in it? Or did you always have to pay for Visual Studio?

I'm not slagging off MS. I'm actually genuinely interested in getting my hands
dirty with some Visual C# now that Windows 7 is shaping up to be quite a nice
OS to use. It just seems odd that I have to pay someone so that I can write
stuff for their OS.

~~~
palish
What you want is Visual Studio Express. Or more precisely Visual C# 2010
Express. <http://www.microsoft.com/express/downloads/>

~~~
rbanffy
Or Monodevelop, or SharpDevelop.

Or just your favourite text editor coupled to the build system that comes with
the .NET framework.

You could even write an Emacs mode for this.

------
wvenable
Can anyone describe how the Visual Studio 2010 IDE compares to 2008 IDE
performance-wise?

~~~
hp1995acer
VS 2010 is slower than VS 2008.

That said, with a $900 machine, ( quad i5, 4 gig ram ) with a last gen video
card the most recent RC runs just as fast as VS 2008 did.

~~~
unhappyms
Very true. A lot of 2010 perf hit is because of WPF. Real hardware and a good
video card is required. I never dreamed that a decent video card would be
required for a text editor but it is.

~~~
heresy
Hardware acceleration is the Microsoft crutch for shitty perf :)

Not that I'm bitter, stuck in VS2008 all day on a circa 2003 machine, stingy
ass employers.

They can afford to pay 100k+ for engineers, but not to give them decent
machines..

------
adamsmith
Did they fix the bug that forces you to restart your app if you edit a
function that has an anonymous/lambda/linq statement?

This has been by far and away my #1 complaint for over three years
([http://blog.adamsmith.cc/2007/03/complaints-about-visual-
stu...](http://blog.adamsmith.cc/2007/03/complaints-about-visual-
studio.html)). It is a huge deterrent from taking advantage of most of C#'s
beauties.

------
hubb
ultimate version available for a _completely reasonable_ $12 000!
[http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-
us/products/2010-ed...](http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-
us/products/2010-editions/ultimate)

~~~
drawkbox
I was blown away by this. I have used all versions of VS and always worked at
places that provided it or were gold partners or in the MSDN subscriptions.
The cost of one copy is MORE than a MSDN subscription. Seriously what is up
with the pricing? This is waaaaay too much for an IDE these days. I could buy
both Maya and 3dsmax cheaper than that.

~~~
sp332
>The cost of one copy is MORE than a MSDN subscription.

That's because it includes an MSDN sub. Still astronomical, I know.

------
chadaustin
C++0x! Time to use auto, move constructors, and shared_ptr!

[http://blogs.msdn.com/vcblog/archive/2010/04/06/c-0x-core-
la...](http://blogs.msdn.com/vcblog/archive/2010/04/06/c-0x-core-language-
features-in-vc10-the-table.aspx)

In fact, I've read existing STL-heavy C++ (returning std::vector<std::string>
by value from functions, for example) will sometimes double in performance
when compiling with a C++0x-capable compiler.

I wish the new historical debugger worked for C++.

~~~
scott_s
gcc's equivalent table: <http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html>

------
dschobel
found some concrete info from Scott Guthrie's twitter feed (he's the VP of the
MS Developer Division).

\-------------------------------

MSDN Subscribers & WebsiteSpark/BizSpark members can download VS 2010 Monday
morning.

The final release of VS 2010 & .NET 4 will be available ~10am PST.

Free VS 2010 Express Editions + VS 2010 Trial editions will also be available
for download.

\-------------------------------

<http://twitter.com/scottgu>

------
macrael
Wow. Coming from the Mac, I have never realized you had to pay, and possibly
pay so very much, for dev tools on Windows. What kind of things does VS do
that are exciting? I see they have a feature list a million miles long, but I
can't get a sense of what VS does that eclipse or Xcode does not. Color me
surprised.

~~~
bruceboughton
Supports .NET projects ;)

Seriously though, VS and Eclipse compare quite similarly on features. There
are also free Express editions of most MS tools which cover perhaps 80% of the
features so the price isn't really an issue.

------
thinkbohemian
Up voted, cause its news to me. I would like a review of .NET 4.0 or an
overview of new features in VS 2010 sometime.

~~~
dschobel
F# is a first class language alongside C# and VB.

Major new threading framework which let's you write things like:

    
    
      Parallel.For(0, 100, delegate(int i)
      {
        doWork(i);
      }
      );
    

and to parallelize your LINQ queries with the AsParallel() method:

    
    
      data.AsParallel().Sum();  //does exactly what you think
    
    

That's just the stuff which I'm most excited about. See
[http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/ms171868(VS.100).asp...](http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/ms171868\(VS.100\).aspx) for a more comprehensive list.

~~~
loikujhygthj
>//does exactly what you think

Bring the database to a grinding halt when it tries to service 1000s of
request for different rows in the same table at the same time in parallel
rather than just access each line in order and sum them?

~~~
Maascamp
Is all the data you ever operate on stored in the database? Do you never load
things into memory?

------
dlsspy
Is it safe to assume they haven't updated their C support from the 21 year old
standard to the 11 year old standard?

~~~
ben_straub
They support _some_ of C99. LMGTFY:
[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/146381/visual-studio-
supp...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/146381/visual-studio-support-for-
new-c-c-standards)

~~~
dlsspy
That question was asked in September 2008. One would hope some things could
change by then.

Supporting c89 is supporting _some_ of c99. As pointed out from some of the
things you linked to, not fully supporting c99 means there are places where
bugs are silently introduced (see snprintf) and, more importantly, my code
that compiles under various c99 compilers doesn't compile under the stuff
Microsoft ships.

------
suraj
Hmmm, express editions are not yet updated.

~~~
malbs
Express editions are available now. Follow the link from the MSDN homepage

------
bmm6o
I don't expect too many people on HN are doing SharePoint work, but if you
are, you need to get VS 10 now. They've added templates for a variety of
projects, and single-click compile/package/retract/deploy/debug of your
project.

~~~
heresy
My condolences.

I see SharePoint on a job posting and it goes into the trash immediately...

------
jpcx01
Looks cool. I'm a ruby dev on osx, but ill be installing the demo and playing
around with this thing for sure. I really like the innovations in .net 4.0 for
dynamic languages.

Anyone know the status of ironruby within this release?

~~~
xpaulbettsx
IronRuby just shipped 1.0 as of today, no VS integration though (yet...)

------
euroclydon
I know named and optional parameters are in there for C#.

~~~
rbanffy
Do you need to get a whole IDE just for a compiler that supports a given
runtime feature?

~~~
euroclydon
Good question. Are you asking if you can target .NET 4.0 with VS 2008? I don't
know, my experience has been that it's like swimming upstream to try to
separate the IDE, .NET Framework version, and language version -- best to just
get them all.

~~~
WorkerBee
_Are you asking if you can target .NET 4.0 with VS 2008?_

Highly unlikely. However, VS2010 will give you a choice of Runtime versions
from 4 downwards. VS2008 will give you a choice of Runtime versions from 3.5
downwards.

------
keltex
Does anybody know when this will be available for download in MSDN
subscriptions?

~~~
d2viant
10AM Pacific

------
beagle3
What's the cheap legal way to get it?

Empower is going away May 21st; Any other options?

~~~
viggity
bizspark, if you're not a student. Say you've got a startup and you get a free
MSDN subscription for three years, then pay $100. Its a great deal

~~~
jf
... contact me if you're interested in BizSpark.

------
Andox
Is it available at MSDN subscription downloads yet?

------
huhtenberg
_A powerful IDE that ensures quality code_

Isn't that awesome?

------
joubert
This sites switches to a mobile version when I browse there on my iPad. Maybe
they haven't noticed the iPad release?

~~~
zyb09
believe or not, but the iPad isn't exactly the center of the universe.
Especially not for Microsoft.

~~~
joubert
Agreed, but my comment wasn't _really_ aimed at dissing MS specifically for
not _not_ showing the regular web page when using an iPad, but rather the
bigger point that mobile web sites, in today's age of powerful mobile devices,
are just out of place. This is amplified by the iPad's 9.7" screen, but is
equally true on an iPhone, and would hope on a Windows Mobile device as well.

~~~
perokreco
I disagree. If there were more/better mobile sites, you wouldn't have to use
so many apps for things that are essentially website functionality. Plus they
save money if you are not on an unlimited plan. I do hate when they scrape
functionality, the way I can not add an attachment on a mobile version of
gmail so I have to use the html one.

~~~
joubert
Maybe I didn't express myself clearly. Apologies. What I mean is that mobile
hardware (and mobile browsers) are getting better and better and so mobile
websites are become passe. Decent mobile hardware & browsers can view full
websites.

Especially when your screen is 9.7".

