
Apple introduces 8-core MacBook Pro - css
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/05/apple-introduces-first-8-core-macbook-pro-the-fastest-mac-notebook-ever/
======
ericabiz
We repair these as part of our business, and to be clear, both the keyboards
_and_ the screens are failing on these at an alarming rate.

iFixit detailed the issues with the screens, which (in Apple's unending quest
for "thinness") use a thinner flex cable to connect the display to the rest of
the laptop. This thinner cable is prone to breakage, and we are already seeing
2016-2017 MacBook Pros in our shop regularly for this issue.

Since Apple built the flex cable into the display, the only solution (even
from third parties like us) is a new display. At $600-$700 each, this is
unacceptable.

And, like the keyboards, this is a part that's pretty much guaranteed to fail
(unless you basically never open your laptop.)

Apple hasn't announced a fix yet, even with a petition with over 11,000
signatures, and more screens failing by the day.

From the time the keyboard issues happened, I made a strong recommendation to
avoid buying these. If you can do your work on a PC, do so. (Personally, I now
use a Dell XPS 15 as a "desktop replacement", and kept my old 2013 MacBook Pro
around too.) If you need a Mac, consider a desktop version (with a SSD!), or
stick with the 2015 or older MacBooks.

Even if you think the keyboard issues are fixed, consider too that this is the
4th generation of these keyboards--and Apple promised that the 2nd and 3rd
generation would fix these as well. This plus the screen issues means
switching to PC if you need speed should be a serious consideration.

iFixit article on "stage light" display issues/"flexgate":
[https://ifixit.org/blog/12903/flexgate/](https://ifixit.org/blog/12903/flexgate/)

~~~
Scarbutt
The cheapest XPS 15" is more expensive than the cheapest MB 15".

Are there any reliable ~$1000 laptops to host linux?

~~~
ericabiz
I’m not sure where you’re looking, but the XPS 15 starts at $1000. Of course,
you’re not going to want that hybrid drive.

Dell also has an upcoming Memorial Day sale where they will discount certain
models, and the new XPS 15 is due out next month.

[https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-
laptops/xps-15/spd/xps-...](https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-
laptops/xps-15/spd/xps-15-9570-laptop/configurations)

~~~
mailslot
I was going to say that the SSD is slower on the XPS, and it is, but it’s
close.

The storage in the MBP is wicked fast even in the base configuration.

~~~
Zephyreks
[https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-
Pro-15-2018-2-6-...](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-
Pro-15-2018-2-6-GHz-560X-Laptop-Review.317358.0.html)

[https://www.notebookcheck.net/Huawei-
MateBook-13-i7-8565U-Ge...](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Huawei-
MateBook-13-i7-8565U-GeForce-MX150-Laptop-Review.395006.0.html)

Samsung PM981s (and really Samsung SSDs in general) tend to trounce the
competition, but IIRC the XPS 13 uses some mediocre SK Hynix SKU.

------
gilbetron
After 8 years of macbooks, after using the 2018 model, I switched to a Dell
Precision 5530 running Ubuntu 18.04 and it is awesome. The hardware is great,
and having Unix under it all was the only real reason I liked Macs (used to be
hardware, too). Granted, I don't need Adobe stuff, or anything else that
doesn't run or have an alternative on Ubuntu (although it is dual-booted with
Win10, but I've never used it, just keep it for when I want to play a game)

The Macbook pro 2018 was the worst laptop experience I've had in at least 15+
years. So disappointing, but maybe this will let Unix laptops finally start
taking real market share.

~~~
endymi0n
I can only come to the same conclusion. Typing this on a 2018 MacBook 15 inch,
and it's a disaster. I still keep accidentally hitting the Touchbar ten times
per day while typing (it's not a press-bar, duh), I need a dongle for
_everything and their mother_, battery lifetime isn't good, the keyboard is
prone to mistyping and double clicks, the screen doesn't get bright enough
sometimes, I can't get any higher spec hardware, it really feels like a super
expensive toy to me.

I'd buy something different if there was a real alternative OS-wise (I feel
too old to compile my own kernel for a glitchy wifi driver, and Windows? Nah,
get away...)

~~~
docker_up
I recently was forced to upgrade by 2015 laptop at work because the battery
life was finally short enough that I couldn't stand it. I hate dongles. The
2015 Macbook will stand as their last best laptop. Nothing about the 2018
laptop is better, it's only worse. I don't understand why they don't see this.

There should really be a huge multi-billion dollar class action lawsuit for
their keyboards and fixability to wake them up. I'm so angry.

~~~
golfer
100% agree. I'm typing this on a 2015 Macbook Pro, and holding on for dear
life, even as it has started alerting me about servicing the battery. It's a
great machine. I tried using the touchbar on my son's newer MBP. It's awful,
and not meant for serious use. His laptop has been replaced once already due
to keyboard issue, and starting to show defects again.

~~~
TomVDB
Replace the battery.

I did it last year on my 2012 rMBpro after it have been complaining about
servicing the battery for about a year, and while it wasn't a walk in the
park, it all worked out great.

Tip: there are 2 ways to replace the battery.

One is by following the official iFixit etc instructions where you remove
absolutely everything before you peel off the battery with acetone.

The other is by immediately peeling off the battery right away. In that case,
you have to be careful that the acetone doesn't flow onto the speakers
(because they'd melt.) That's the way I, and many other with me, did it. It
still only took me about 1 hour to get everything back up and running.

~~~
zrail
Or just take it to the Apple Store and pay them $199 to repair the battery
which also gets you an entirely new top case and keyboard (old, original
stock)

~~~
totololo
Yeah in my experience that 199$ price doesn’t happen in real life, as they
tell you they need to replace the whole top case. Never understood why they
publicly list the 199$ battery change price. Am I missing something?

~~~
garren
I just had the battery replaced in two mid-2014 MBPs. They said that I'd be
paying for the battery replacement (199), but that they would also replace the
keyboard and trackpad and I wouldn't be charged for either. However, the way
they stated it initially was a little confusing, since it sounded like I'd be
paying an additional 100, but they were quick to clear it up.

They did say that they might need to replace the shell (battery was slightly
swollen in both machines) and that I'd be responsible for that cost, but that
didn't happen for either box. I don't think they replace the shell unless it's
really, really deformed. Neither of my machines would sit flat and both were
obviously swollen. One I could practically spin like a top (and the trackpad
was screwed).

I got both back with no deformities, a new battery, keyboard, and trackpad,
and a 199 bill (plus tax).

I wouldn't rule out getting it fixed. If you do end up paying a little more,
then you can probably sell it for more than the price it cost to fix.

~~~
totololo
Was macOS or the diagnostics tool saying "service battery"?

------
cletus
What a clusterF is modern Mac hardware:

\- Keyboards with much worse action that are more prone to failure (from dust
no less) and require replacing the motherboard to fix... all for a Touchbar no
one wants and 0.5mm cut in thickness.

\- Loss (over the years) of the ability to upgrade the CPU, SSD or memory;

\- Display failures due to broken ribbon cables;

\- The USB-C clusterF; and

\- Loss of MagSafe (this one still hurts).

All for a premium price.

Go back 5 years and you have two great choices:

1\. The 13" Macbook Air for under $1500, which was a great compromise of
power, portability and affordability; or

2\. The 15" Retina Macbook Pro, which was more upgradeable, less failure prone
and had a better keyboard.

I bought a 2017 MBP and I deeply regret it. Luckily it hasn't failed yet. If
and when it does I may be better off just throwing it away.

How did Apple lose its way so badly here? Serviceability matters. It's too
expensive to be a throwaway device.

So who really cares if your throwaway $44k device can now have 8 instead of 6
cores? Really?

~~~
burtonator
> Loss of MagSafe (this one still hurts).

I will NEVER forgive them for this.

Jobs was RIGHT when he said this was a major innovation over everyone else.

Now Apple is either saying he was wrong or THEY are wrong. They're not BOTH
right.

My 2015 is the last MBP I will ever buy and it's aging fast...

I think it's hackingtosh from here on out.

I primarily use Ubuntu but I have to have a Mac as our app runs cross platform
and I need somethign to test with.

~~~
dcosson
I guess I'm the only one that thinks USB-C is actually better?

The biggest win is that now I can use a single dongle for power, displayport
to my monitor, and connection to a USB hub. So if I take my laptop home or
into a meeting room, when I get back to my desk it's just a single thing to
plug in now instead of 3+ separate cables. And since this stuff is all
standardized now and there's no longer anything Apple proprietary like
Thunderbolt 1, I would guess other makers will follow suit eventually and most
monitors will support it directly without even needing a dongle.

Plus the MagSafe port was not without problems - every few months I would get
like a little magnetic pebble or something stuck in there, and then it's
plugged in but not charging charging and usually I'd realize when my laptop is
almost dead and then have to find something small to try to pluck it out of
there. The USB-C port doesn't have this issue and it's still a relatively
small port with very low resistance to being pulled out. Tripping over the
power cord just has never really been an issue for me, it kinda seems
overblown (knock on wood though, I guess).

I do miss the external LED that showed whether you were connected to power or
not and whether it was fully charged, it would be nice if they found a way to
add that back on the side of the laptop or something since it can no longer be
on the cable itself with a standard USB-C cable.

~~~
ben-schaaf
I was initially sceptical of USB-C, but was looking forward to having less
things to plug in. Then I learnt that USB-C only supports up to 100W of power,
and even worse the MBP included charger is only 87W. All high performance
laptops draw more power than that at high load (think gaming, rendering,
etc.).

I just don't see USB-C ever replacing a proper charging cable if it can't even
supply enough power to run the computer! The computer you leave to render
overnight will drain the battery to flat and subsequently shut down/throttle.
How is that in any way acceptable?

~~~
stephenr
> All high performance laptops draw more power than that at high load

You’re going to need to qualify what you mean by “high performance”.

~~~
ben-schaaf
I'd classify any laptop with 6 or more intel cores and a dedicated gpu >=
rx560/gtx1050(ti). Not so sure about mobile, but a desktop RX560 on its own
uses 80-100W[0] which doesn't really leave any headroom for a 6 (yet alone an
8 core) cpu.

[0] [https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-
rx-560-4gb,5...](https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-
rx-560-4gb,5254-14.html)

~~~
stephenr
Recent MBP15s have 6 or 8 cores, and at least Radeon pro555, 560 or some
variety of Vega.

They run on an 87W charger fine.

------
swozey
These used to excite me because I've desperately needed 32gb and faster procs
and used to upgrade every 2-3 years but now I just yawn at MBP releases. I'm
so unexcited by everything about this form factor other than the fact that it
has OSX. I'm guessing I'll be on my 2016 until I finally bite the bullet and
quit using OSX if they don't make a more compelling package to spend my $3k on
in the next few years.

I don't want thinner. I don't want a touchbar. I don't want this oversized
touchpad I touch constantly when it's on my lap. I don't want this terrible
keyboard solution required due to the desire for thinness. I don't want to
carry 3 USBC dongles or to buy a $350 USBC hub at every single desk I have
with monitors (home, work). I want a bigger battery. I want more ports. I want
less bezel. I want a chassis that doesn't scratch and dent.

~~~
skierguy
I thought the same thing. Now I'm stuck with a $1500 Asus laptop that barely
plays Netflix a year and a half later. despite an 7th gen i7 and 16gb of DDR4.
Now I'm saving up for a Macbook Pro again, despite my hatred for the keyboard
and touchbar.

~~~
ValentineC
> _Now I 'm stuck with a $1500 Asus laptop that barely plays Netflix a year
> and a half later. despite an 7th gen i7 and 16gb of DDR4._

Any idea what's wrong with it?

~~~
jandrese
Maybe he has a spinning disk in it? I see lots of laptops in that price range
that go for the 1TB HDD instead of the 256GB SSD. Windows 10 on a 5400RPM HDD
is pretty miserable these days, the OS just can't stop touching the disk and
it's forever IO bound.

~~~
freehunter
I've had the same problem. I had a i7 T420 with 16GB of RAM that was lightning
quick when I got it and over a few years became completely unusable even for
basic tasks. When I hit the Windows key to open the start menu, I could turn
and take a sip of coffee before it opened. Reformatting and reinstalling from
scratch did nothing to improve the speed.

I switched to a Macbook soon after and it is just as fast today as it was when
I got it four years ago. I recently fired up that old T420 and popped an
older, unused SSD into it. Instant game-changer. It is unbelievable how much
faster it is with an SSD, the same speed it was with Windows 7 when I first
got it.

Seriously, get an SSD.

~~~
unphased
Still doesn't seem right. with an SSD it's only as fast as Windows 7 on a
rotating HDD?

~~~
freehunter
Hitting the Windows key on Windows 7 even with an HDD was instant. Hitting the
Windows key on Windows 10 with an HDD tok seconds. Installing an SSD brought
it back to being instant.

Hard to get much faster than instant.

~~~
dylan604
Does it have anything to do with Win10 start menu want's to download an ad to
show you?

------
mtmail
[https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/21/apple-announces-new-
macboo...](https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/21/apple-announces-new-macbook-pros-
with-more-powerful-processors-and-yes-updated-keyboards/)

"Today, however, [Apple] told me that they’re taking three explicit steps to
help with the keyboard situation. 1. The MacBook Pro keyboard mechanism has
had a materials change in the mechanism. [...]"

~~~
ordinaryradical
This is the _real_ announcement, to be honest. 8 cores is a convenient
smokescreen, and they clearly don't want to talk about how borked their
product is at WWDC so they are dropping the keyboard update with this news
like it's a detail when it's actually the real story.

These shitty keyboards cast a shadow over the whole product line. If they
didn't fix it the third time around, it's time to abandon the damn mechanism
and accept that thicc computers can be beautiful, too.

~~~
pfranz
Ehh, fixing the keyboards (assuming its fixed--they've said the same thing 2
or 3 times now) and hopefully the monitor cable only addresses the literally
broken things about the new laptops and ignores the other things people prefer
the 2015 for. Although multi-core is nice to see, it still maxes out at 32G--
without an option to upgrade later, either.

It still looks to have the same camera I had in my 2009 MBP...this can't be a
cost/space/engineering thing since iPhones exist. I don't care if it's higher
res. Make it higher quality and less noisy. I genuinely miss charging and
battery LEDs they removed from the case (and magsafe). I've plugged in my
laptop overnight only to find it never charged once or twice. I see the
touchbar causing more problems than it solves.

I'm actually disappointed. I was hoping whatever next Macbook Pro they
released would be a significant update or offer more compelling things.

~~~
marrone12
I feel like the power management through USBC on the new Macbooks is not good.
Frequently my CPU would overheat whenever I was charging my computer.

------
vogon_laureate
I own both a 15" Macbook Pro 2017 model with touch bar and a Dell XPS 15" 2017
model. Both have their pluses and minuses. Both needed major repairs. Dell
needed logic board and screen replaced. Mac needed logic board and keyboard.

I mainly use the Mac. It's much quieter, has an amazingly vivid and bright
retina display, extremely good battery life, best track pad in the industry
and the best speakers on any laptop I've ever had. I like the keyboard, I even
game on it. I don't get the whole dongle issue but I'm not a heavy user of
peripherals. I have two USB-C port extender dongles should I ever need
anything from ethernet to firewire 800. I've used them like twice in the last
two years.

The Dell is fine, but I'm just not a big Windows fan. The keyboard is kinda
meh, the bluetooth is poor, the screen isn't as bright or vivid and has some
light bleed and the build has that cheap plastic feel about it. If it was any
more reliable than the Macbook, I think I would be persuaded by the argument
about the hardware, but both have had problems, both required lengthy repairs,
etc. I have extended warranty on Dell and Applecare for the Mac and I needed
them for both.

Laptops fail. My PC motherboard with ultra durable components also failed
after two years. Heat and dust and micro-imperfections in silicon will do
their thing. Sure, Apple made some questionable design choices. It's still a
great machine.

~~~
colordrops
Dell XPS laptops are some of the best Linux laptops out there. No need for
Windows. I've been using the same model as you with Linux for a while now and
an very happy with it.

~~~
vogon_laureate
I've tried to go full Linux desktop. I hated it. On the servers I manage, I
run terminal only and mostly BSD systems. Linux desktop just boils my piss.
Plus I need Adobe apps, and a few other bits and pieces of software. I need my
machine to facilitate my work, not get in my way. I appreciate that Linux
works like that for some, but for me, not at all.

~~~
colordrops
Just using a Linux desktop vanilla out of the box is setting yourself up for
failure. If you plan to be in Linux full-time, you'll have to meet it half-
way, and do a lot of customization work. I've got scripts checked into github
that setup the machine how I like, which includes XMonad as a window manager,
tmux + a heavily customized neovim for terminal and coding, and Brave+Vimium
as my browser. I almost never have to touch the mouse and it's fast as hell.
Sharp learning curve but one you are over it it's much more efficient and out
of your way than windows or os x. If you are going to be using computers
professionally for more than a year, as most of us probably are, it's almost
certainly worth a few months of effort to have a low level hotrod as your
environment.

------
thsowers
Wish there was an option to buy a 15 inch with no touch bar. I cannot find any
suitable use for it on my current model, and I often hit items inadvertently
due to the lack of tactile feedback

~~~
neural_thing
I just want a MBP that is a late 2013 body with modern hardware inside it. I
know there are many others like me.

~~~
klodolph
Are you sure you wouldn't rather have the 2008-2012 body? It's a bit easier to
upgrade or repair.

(At work I have a 15" MBP with the 2013 body. I'm eligible for upgrading it,
but what would I replace it with that could possibly be better? Literally the
only downside that I care about is the fact that most conference rooms at work
no longer have magsafes lying around.)

~~~
lukifer
There's a lot to love in the 2013-2015 line, but the 2008-2012 series will
always have my heart. I've never had a laptop so easy to work on, and being
able to put two drives in a portable is icing on the cake.

~~~
asark
They keyboard on the '08-'12's noticeably better than in the '13-'15\. Either
is way better than the current version.

------
mmartinson
I'm currently using the last, best 2015 macbook, and having tried a newer
model as a work computer for a short while previously, am dreading the day I
need to think about replacing it.

How about this apple. "macbook util". The pro line can keep the thin delicate
stuff. Give me the 2015 case, screen, keyboard, and magsafe, with some new
internals and a usb-c. I'd happily hand over my money.

~~~
rarecoil
Wasn't that kind of the point of the "Pro" line? I mean, if you just wanted a
kinda cool laptop, you'd buy a MacBook or MacBook Air. It's now the MacBook
Prosumer, and there is no pro option.

Hacker News has been whinging about this Apple dilemma for years. I'm sorry to
say that I just don't think there will ever be the golden age of MacBooks
again. The "Pro" ideas coming from Cupertino are gimmicky at best for
developers, and we will be stuck working on various Linux machines and leave
the MBP problems to designers. The hacker-type software engineer is not
Apple's target market for the MBP, and I think even before it was likely
coincidence.

If you look at the pro target even in this post, the majority of Mac "pro" use
cases being displayed here are creative in nature. Devs generally aren't
spending their days editing video or sitting in Maya and they are targeting
those markets - people who need power but don't wrench into their OS internals
or open a debugger when something goes wrong. Those customers are also a lot
less flighty as long as their creative tools work.

As for me, I stopped complaining and wishing for a pony, accepted that the
MacBook is dead, and moved to a ThinkPad for daily use. My 2015 MBP will stick
around when I need macOS, but it's best to start converting my workflow to a
different platform where I see a future for development work.

~~~
bluedino
I love Thinkpads but the trackpads, screen, and build quality leave a lot to
be desired. Every Mac is the same level of assembly/quality but ThinkPads vary
too much from one to another.

The prices for the high-performance models are almost as high as Apple and the
power bricks are actually bricks.

~~~
dzonga
I have a t490 with 500 nit display. 100% ARGB / SRGB. I haven't seen any
macbook display that's sharp. Btw I have a personal 2012 Retina Macbook pro &
a 2018 Macbook pro that I use for work for frontend.

~~~
spronkey
The 2012 Retina displays are no less sharp than the best display on the T490.
Are you sure you aren't just comparing macOS to Windows?

I'm the biggest critic of modern Apple notebooks there is, but I can't fault
the quality of the MacBook Pro displays. They are, and have been for a long
time, the best displays on notebooks.

------
thought_alarm
The arrow keys and touchbar make that machine completely unsuitable for
writing code, at least for me. My right hand needs to unconsciously lock on to
the arrow keys, and that's just impossible with that layout. There's nothing
to grab on to. My new iMac keyboard sits in a drawer collecting dust solely
because of the arrow keys.

And the butterfly mechanism is unproven and untrustworthy, I don't care how
many times they update it.

They need to go back to using the same keyboard mechanisms for both their
desktops and laptops, and they need to go back to the old arrow key layout.

I will wait another year until 2020.

~~~
andyfleming
There is some claim that they've fixed the keyboard issue.

Aside from that, across 2 MacBook Pro's and a MacBook Air, I've had 0 keyboard
issues. I don't know if I've just gotten lucky, kept my keyboard clean, or
what, but it just has never been a problem for me.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
The failure rate of the butterfly keyboard design is clearly orders of
magnitude too high and is the sort of thing people should genuinely lose their
jobs over (and perhaps they have). But "orders of magnitude too high" might
well mean one or two percent, rather than one or two _tenths_ of a percent;
outside the company, I don't think we have any reasonable estimates of the
failure rate, just anecdotes. My work laptop has no problem, although its lid
is usually closed; my home laptop, a MacBook Escape, also has had no keyswitch
problems, although I mostly use an iPad for portable work now. Most of my
coworkers have new butterfly-switch keyboards and I don't hear of significant
issues; I've talked with a couple Mac IT people at different companies and
they haven't experienced huge failure rates, either. This is, again, all
anecdotal, though; some people will come back and say "I'm in an eight-person
group and three of us had bad keyboards."

~~~
fmajid
Anecdotally, at my company, the failure rate is closer to 30%.

------
nuccy
8-core CPU, even presumably with HT off after all the recent Intel
vulnerabilities, makes me laugh after my personal experience with my late 2016
MacBook Pro 13 touch bar with fastest (at that time) i7. During normal
browsing especially with plugged charger, it was heating so much that
something in the keyboard was unglueing. The space bar and 'c' produced
different clicking sound. I was quite unhappy with that since it was my first
experience with Apple products. I took it to Apple Store, they replaced the
top part (with keyboard), it fixed 'c' and 'space', but issue appeared in '~'
and 'tab'. I took it again to Apple Store, they replaced top part again. And
again same issue with different keys. I took it there again, since replacing
top case didn't help they proposed to replace whole laptop. I agreed. New
laptop had the same issue again so I had nothing to do but wait when Apple
will acknowledge the issue. They didn't but started to replace keyboards
because of key stucking issue, so I requested a fix again and finally they
managed to fix it...

~~~
kitsunesoba
Using Safari with an adblocking extension that makes use of WebKit’s native
content blocking capabilities makes an enormous difference when it comes to
heat and power draw. I’ve tried Chrome and Firefox with uBlock Origin and both
are considerably more demanding in CPU use while not being that much faster.
Where Chrome and Firefox has my fans ramped up to 60%, Safari has them running
at 10% or switched off.

Really wish both Google and Mozilla would press pause on feature development
for a couple of years and make efficiency the top priority.

~~~
artimaeis
Any recommendation on a good adblocking extension for Safari on MacOS? I've
been using KaBlock but I've not found a great source that meaningfully
compares the existing options.

~~~
kitsunesoba
It costs a couple bucks but Wipr does pretty well and gets regular updates.

Another nice bonus to content blocker extensions like these is that they’re
just JSON rule lists that Safari compiles into bytecode and runs against pages
as they load. The extensions are barred from access to everything, meaning
they can’t be bought up and turned into Trojan horses.

------
no1youknowz
As someone who is desperately wanting to upgrade from a mid-2012. I say big
deal.

No better display like oled. Looks like the same keyboard to me. Oh the
material has changed? Who cares, it's the same failing mechanism. More CPU eh?
Means it'll just get hotter much quicker and there will be more throttling to
be fixed via software.

At this rate, for Apple to get my $$$ again they'll have to release a 16"
[oled] macbook pro, with a redesigned keyboard and arm chipset so that the
body is entirely cool even under load.

Maybe in 2022 I can see myself buying another macbook pro. Man, I can't wait
till Tim Cook gets replaced. We need another visionary at he helm of Apple.
Someone who will push the envelope again!

~~~
dawnerd
OLED is not a very good idea for a computer monitor currently with their
pretty bad image retention. Go look at the iPhones at Best Buy. You can see
they have pretty bad retention (unless your Best Buy is good and replaces the
phones often).

~~~
jazoom
I have never seen retention on my Pixel2XL. Not even a little bit. I used to
see retention on my last OLED phone. Maybe we're getting close to OLED
displays that are good enough? And yes, sometimes I have my phone on for a
long time. And yes, there are static elements just like on a desktop.

~~~
dawnerd
You wont notice it if you use your phone. Retention happens when the screen is
on all day showing a static image that doesn't change. On a macbook that would
mean the apple logo for sure would burn in. Hell, even on my non-oled lcd
monitors they're burning in even though they're not supposed to.

Even with pixel shifting you can still get retention too, so that's not really
an option right now. I'm hopeful some company in the future will come up with
a way to prevent it altogether - but it's going to have to be some kind of new
screen tech.

~~~
jazoom
I don't leave my screen on the same image all day. It's on about as much as my
phone. I turn it off if I'm not actively using it. This is my point. If I can
have it on my phone, I should be able to have it on my desktop.

------
TimTheTinker
Apple designers need a new mantra, the age-old adage: "Form follows function."
As it is, they're choosing a form ahead of time and compromising on function.

The vast majority of users choose Macs because of the great OS and the
hardware specs. The "thinness" or "sleekness" is only a nice-to-have, and only
if it doesn't require compromise elsewhere.

~~~
everyone
Lots of people on HN call the Mac OS 'great' ... But why? What is so great
about it that is not similar on Linux or Windows?

When ye say "great", I think ye mean "the one I am familiar with".

~~~
rayiner
Windows is crap. The UI is totally schizoid, with different apps using
different toolkits. Office for Mac integrates more cleanly into the look and
feel of the rest of the OS than Office for Windows. There are two different
settings apps with different features. Basic things are poorly designed. E.g.
if you put the task bar in autohide mode, it routinely gets “stuck” because
some notification is keeping it from hiding.

~~~
fiddlerwoaroof
Of course, electron is bringing this great fragmented ui experience to macOS

~~~
dmitriid
Electron is a browser. So a huge chunk of things are native: keyboard support,
inputs, dropdowns, context menus, menus, preference panes, popups, window
chrome etc.

And all this is available to developers out of the box. Very few "cross-
platform UI toolkits" can come even close.

That said, a fully native app would be a better option, but Electron apps are
ok (unless devs go out of their way to make them bad)

~~~
fiddlerwoaroof
The problem is that the controls generally are made by web developers rather
than just using the underlying platform’s widgets so, list views look wrong,
input handling is slightly off, etc. All the normal issues with applications
made with web technologies.

Additionally, browsers are one of the most out-of-place feeling applications
because the look and feel is controlled by the website, not by your operating
system.

------
victor22
My 2018 Macbook Pro's screen failed. They replaced it for free, but damaged
the webcam in the process. They told me I'd need to pay over 500 dollars to
get it fixed since I could not prove it was damaged while switching screens.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Small claims court?

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
This is a completely appropriate use of small-claims court. It's the one place
where a regular citizen can afford a fair trial against Apple in the U.S.

~~~
treis
Unfortunately you generally have to sue where the corporate HQ is. That makes
it impractical for most people.

~~~
eeeeeeeeeeeee
No you don’t. And this is actually why a lot of people win them against
corporations — it’s cheaper to just let you have the hundreds or few thousand
you’re asking for.

------
c141charlie
I’ll sacrifice myself at the alter of Steve Jobs. I have a 2018 MacBook Pro
with a 6-core CPU and 32GB of RAM and I absolutely love it (with exception to
the Touch Bar which sucks if you’re a VIM user). Once you get used to the
butterfly keyboard you can fly. The light weight makes traveling with a 15
inch laptop a pleasant experience. The screen, speakers, and touch pad are
fantastic. I haven’t had a single issue with the keyboard, and I am constant
munching on food, getting crumbs in between the keyboard, etc. Dongle life
isn’t as bad as it sounds. Put one in your backpack and use it when needed. I
also bought the LG 5K monitor and that has been the perfect compliment to this
laptop. OK back to drinking more kool aid.

------
docker_up
When in God's name will they get rid of TouchBar? I DESPISE IT. Why not add
the function keys back and add the touch bar above it? I see that there's
space above!

Am I the only one that feels this way?

~~~
ben7799
Not till Jony Ive leaves?

I think this is the root of most of these Apple design faux pas... he goes
back to the Steve Jobs Era and was definitely blessed.

With Steve gone there is probably no one at the company who can actually say
"This is the worst _!@#$%^ &_ thing ever!" like Steve Jobs liked to say. Tim
Cook doesn't seem to be a product guy or something and trusts Ive too much.

Ive's ideas were good back in the day when everything was huge and clunky but
he seems to look at everything and try to think it is still not sleek &
minimalist enough and he's just gone too far at some point. It's a wonder we
still have keyboards at all on these laptops!

I have a 2018 MBP and I am lucky.. I use it 99% of the time plugged in at my
desk at work. They provided us all with $400 OWC USB-3 docks so I mostly dodge
the dongle thing. I have some cheaper dongles at home that live permanently on
my desk. So I also don't run into too many touchbar issues since I rarely do
anything serious on the internal keyboard.

For some reason my usage I don't have battery issues. A lot of my co-workers
do. Ad blockers don't help with Docker & Eclipse hogging CPU.

I wish for 32GB of ram every day, we got our 2018 laptops < 6 months before
they added the 32GB option.

Linux is much better, I tried a pilot System 76 laptop our IT let us try. It
was great for development, hugely better than the Mac. But it was horrible as
a laptop, horrible for going to meetings. Drained the battery in 1 hour if you
had to do a WebEx. Constant WiFi & VPN issues. Having to reboot the machine
sometimes to clear up issues with external displays and internal displays. I
gave it back after a month when I admitted I was wasting 40% of my work time
chasing linux issues.

~~~
stevenjohns
> I gave it back after a month when I admitted I was wasting 40% of my work
> time chasing linux issues.

I feel like this isn't spoken about enough. Or that I'm doing something wrong
which most people who say how their lives have changed for the better by
switching to Dell+Ubuntu don't experience.

I really liked MacOS for development. It gave me a familiar Unix-like
environment that didn't require me to screw around trying to fix trivial
things over and over again. I didn't have to screw around with kernel updates
or try to troubleshoot anything. I only ever needed to set things up once, I
didn't have to worry that the next time I reboot I might lose configurations.

I've been using Elementary OS/Ubuntu on a Surface Book now for a while and
dealing with it is ongoing frustration. At some point my top bar just
disappeared and never came back. Trying to add any sort of modification that
tries to make using the OS more intuitive leads to all sorts of unexpected
issues.

I want to love GNU/Linux. I really do. But I can't even remotely understand
how anyone could love it more than MacOS. GNU/Linux feels like it's always in
Beta.

In truth, using GNU/Linux gives me a feeling of imposter syndrome. I feel like
the reason why I can't stand it even though so many people love it isn't
because the operating systems are bad, but because I'm just incompetent and
don't know what I'm doing. It's frustrating.

~~~
mixmastamyk
MacOS is generally good but doesn't have a fully supported package manager.

Personally I use Ubuntu Mate and couldn't be much happier. There is no real
learning curve if you've used a traditional desktop.

------
will_crusher
Wow, people are really salty about Apple.

I too wish they would make a better computer, but for now I continue to use
them because they are the only machine that I can work on with little fuss of
setup and go.

I have the 2018 model with the "Keyboard" which has been fine because I use a
Bluetooth Mechanical keyboard anyway and a BT Mouse. I have a single cable or
"Dongle" that supplies power, 3 displays, 5 USB 3.0 type A, 2 USB Type C, a SD
Card Reader and Ethernet. Its also Daisy-Chained to an External GPU and temps
stay good. When I need to go portable I just unplug a single cable and go.

~~~
cerberusss
Thanks. I feel the same. I work at my client as well as in my own office, and
when leaving my desk, I often take my laptop with me. The single Thunderbolt
cable is fantastic like that.

------
nothis
I checked their store out of curiosity.

Switching from 512MB to 1TB SSD: +$400

WHY? This is literally the only thing that bothers me about Apple pricing. I
get that you pay for the design, I get the quirks like introducing touch bar,
everything. But I don't get why upgrading from a $50 to a $100 SSD adds 400
dollars.

~~~
akamel
Because they don't use slow SSDs.

The read / write speeds on the SSD in the Macbook Pro are insane.

see: [https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/13/2018-macbook-pro-
fastes...](https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/13/2018-macbook-pro-fastest-
laptop-ssd-ever/)

we are talking at least 6x what other laptops use.

~~~
CBLT
In case you haven't realized you can buy comparable 1TB NVMe SSDs in today's
market for around $100. I see the budget Intel 660p hit $80 for 1TB on sale,
or high-end Phison E12 drives at $115 for 1TB on sale.

~~~
masklinn
FWIW the 660p has significantly lower throughput (though not 6x by any stretch
of the imagination), it's listed and benched around 1800 for reads and writes.

More problematically, it also has serious latency degradation issues when
working outside the SLC cache: [https://www.anandtech.com/show/13078/the-
intel-ssd-660p-ssd-...](https://www.anandtech.com/show/13078/the-intel-
ssd-660p-ssd-review-qlc-nand-arrives/3)

------
TaylorAlexander
Just thought I’d chime in to say I’m loving my Thinkpad X1 with Debian.

If you want to install Debian on the X1 it’s pretty easy. Just make sure to
fix some of the sleep issues using the (easy) instructions on this page, which
in my experience still apply to Debian:
[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carb...](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_\(Gen_6\))

~~~
LeoPanthera
"Just make sure to fix some of the sleep issues..."

A great example of why people buy Macs, though. Most people don't want to faff
around with hackery getting Linux to work properly. And with Windows 10's
horrible privacy issues, Macs are still the best choice. They're buying them
for the software, not the hardware.

~~~
peterkelly
My god.

Problems with sleep/resume were what ultimately convinced me to switch from
Linux to Mac _12 years ago_. It's insane to see there are still issues with it
today.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
Well, as I’ve said in a different comment, there is a very clear reason why
the computer does not come configured properly for Linux sleep modes. Windows
is using a new sleep system that seems to involve disabling a sleep mode in
the BIOS, and the laptop arrives installed with Windows. Once you install
Linux, you just need to go in to the BIOS and change the setting from windows
specific sleep modes to traditional sleep modes, and then after you reboot you
need to tell Linux that sleep mode is now available.

It’s not a problem with Linux, it’s just due to the fact that Linux and
windows are different and the laptop is configured for windows. Once you make
the change the sleep behavior is wonderful and I keep the laptop in my bag for
days at a time on sleep.

------
simongr3dal
They can try to cram all the overheating CPU power into the thin chassis as
much as they like, but it is lagging so much behind in GPU power.

The top-of-the-line option, a Radeon Pro Vega 20 with 4GB of HBM2, doesn't
seems like it's going to perform much better than an NVidia Geforce GTX
1050[0], and at $350 extra it's twice the cost of a standalone NVidia Geforce
GTX 1050.

[0]: [https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-pro-
vega-20.c32...](https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-pro-
vega-20.c3263)

~~~
swozey
The sad part about this, I thought I'd put together a new Mac Mini as a once a
month gaming machine and a daily OSX driver so I didn't have to built an
entire gaming desktop.

Well there's an absolute ton of issues with external GPUs in bootcamped
Windows.

So.. that's not even an option.

~~~
thirdsun
Yes, it's a bad idea. At that point I'd suggest

\- getting a console, which probably offers the best price/performance ratio

\- using something like ASRock's Deskmini A300 which is really affordable and
features a GPU capable of light to medium gaming

\- or use a proper desktop setup if you don't want to cut any corners

In any case stick to a proper Windows environment for gaming. My daily driver
is a Mac Mini, but for gaming I boot up a dedicated Windows box.

~~~
swozey
Yeah I do build $1500-2500ish gaming PCs every few years. I game a lot less
than I did a decade ago, maybe a few times a month, so I wanted OSX around
when I wasn't. But I'm done building hackintoshes. I had a really nice one the
last 3 years waiting on the Mini to ever (because we gave up) update and it
did. I was really excited to use that with OSX as my daily and flip to Windows
+ egpu when I gamed. I'm glad I looked into it to verify it ran egpus horribly
(if at all). I didn't expect there to be any issues with that. Figured it'd be
perfect.

So now instead I've got a "gaming" desktop that sits pretty idle and a MBP
again.. like usual.

------
nihonde
Mac user since 1984. Zero problems with my 2017 MBP other than a loose command
key that was replaced same-day, within 5 mins after arriving at the store. My
company has bought 20+ MBP in the past two years. We’ve had three units with
screen issues (stuck pixels etc) that were all replaced on the spot.

None of that outweighs the conveniences of OS X.

I’ve been reading about how Apple screwed the pooch for almost forty years
now, and yet they just keep taking over the world...

~~~
Areading314
15% of your laptops have had major hardware issues in 2 years? Seems
ridiculously bad given this is a premium product. I will never understand the
loyalty to Macs given they are so obviously inferior to PC offerings these
days.

~~~
nihonde
My experience with PC makers was far worse in terms of failure rates and more
importantly, support. Small sample size, though.

------
debuggerpk
There was a rumor about a new 16.5 inches mbp. I guess that would be another
year then.

[https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/02/17/apple-plans-
new-1...](https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/02/17/apple-plans-new-16--
to-165-inch-macbook-pro-in-2019-aimed-at-gamers-pro-designers)

------
madoublet
I have the 15" 2018 MacBook Pro and would not recommend one until the
following issues are resolved:

\- It runs really, really hot. It cannot be used on your lap. I cannot imagine
how hot a faster model would be.

\- The keyboard is unreliable. I have not had the stuck key problem (yet!),
but I do notice occasional crunching like something is stuck in the keys. I do
not eat around this machine on purpose.

\- The Touchbar is really bad. I wanted to like it. But, it is annoying more
times than it is helpful.

\- Not having a touchscreen when every other high end machine does seems more
and more like a gap that needs to be resolved.

\- Windows management continues to be crap in OSX.

There are a lot of good things. The screen is good. The touchpad is top notch.
OSX is reliable and fast. But, yeah, the hardware just sucks right now. No way
around it.

~~~
makecheck
I agree that the default OS window management is pretty limited but this can
literally be solved for $5 or less (sometimes $1) using utilities on the App
Store that perform snapping, saved layouts, etc.

~~~
pdimitar
Can you please give links? I only know about Stay so far.

~~~
makecheck
For instance, “Window Tidy” or “Magnet” ($0.99). There are probably others.

------
2Ccltvcm
There is zero benefit to more powerful CPUs in MacBooks when the thermal
profile of the CPU heatsink design leads to throttling very rapidly.

------
mikepurvis
I'm a few weeks into an XPS 15 after a decade of Apple. I'm really liking it
as well. I'm even running Windows 10, of all things— between WSL and native
SSH + git and friends on powershell via Chocolatey, I'm finding it
surprisingly comfortable.

I think my main frustration is just that a few things about the trackpad
aren't quite right. For example, I can't find a combination of settings under
Windows which give the physical right-click behaviour that Mac OS has.

~~~
plasma
I’m really considering the switch to XPS also; I think their latest model
moves the camera back to the top as well.

What about the track pad isn’t working? And do you notice any “coil whine”
I’ve been reading about?

My other choice may be a Precision but haven’t read enough about it.

Thank you

~~~
mikepurvis
I haven't experienced the coil whine issue, but I'm also mostly powering it
from a USB-C dock, if that makes any difference.

I love how big the screen is— it's a 15" display in a chassis that's barely
bigger than my old 13" MBP. That said, camera below the screen is a definite
negative, so that's great if it's been moved back; I've just assumed I'll get
a clip-on USB cam and leave it at home for VC use.

------
aidos
Is it possible to get them without the touchbar? I’ve pounded my poor old
MacBook (2013) into submission and the bottom row of keys are starting to not
work intermittently. We’ve got a bunch of the newer machines in the office and
I just can’t get on with that keyboard and touchbar.

~~~
ericabiz
I strongly feel you would be better off getting the keyboard replaced in your
MBP 2013 than upgrading to a new MacBook. (See my post history/other comments
on this thread for my background and a more thorough explanation.) A keyboard
upgrade would be around $200 or less—check local shops near you for price
quotes.

------
cageface
After the keyboard on my 2017 MBP started to fail, I “upgraded” to a 2018
model because I couldn’t afford to be without a machine for a week or longer.
Now the keyboard on this supposedly improved model is also starting to go.

For many years I was a very happy Apple customer and even converted several
family members to MacBooks. But now that Apple has shown just how little
regard they have for their pro customers by trying to sell us this broken
keyboard for the fourth time I’m getting off the bus for good. My next laptop
will not be a Mac. Thank god I stopped doing iOS development.

~~~
72deluxe
What made you stop doing iOS development? I would consider a Mac Mini for that
and remote into it from a decent machine.

~~~
cageface
Mainly just because I don't enjoy it and don't enjoy building the kind of
things people want to build on mobile for the most part.

Also because I think the market for native apps is shrinking and that the web
has more growth potential.

------
crsmithdev
How hot will this thing be with 8 cores? Unless they've cut some ventilation
holes in the bottom of the laptop. MBPs aren't exactly known for good thermal
regulation (my previous one I had to actually undervolt the CPU so it wouldn't
overheat while playing games for even < 30m).

Don't see anything re: keyboard so guessing that there aren't any changes
there, unfortunately.

~~~
macbookcabler
Dave Lee made a video about the Core i9 (now previous generation) that thermal
throttled almost immediately under load. The throttling was so terrible it
actually performed worse than the 2017 MacBook Pro.

[https://youtu.be/Dx8J125s4cg](https://youtu.be/Dx8J125s4cg)

~~~
jnskw
That was a software bug IIRC

~~~
jwatt
His follow-up video after the patch, FWIW:
[https://youtu.be/UTguywiC9aw](https://youtu.be/UTguywiC9aw)

------
afandian
A few months after purchase and my MacBook Pro's keyboard has already been in
for repairs and the screen glitch is too intermittent to replicate so they
won't fix it. A Mac without Applecare+ is foolhardy -- these machines are
engineered to fail under normal use -- so this should be considered as part of
the base price IMHO. Applecare only covers 3 years so that's the lifetime of
the product. That's an expensive value prop.

My colleague's Macbook keyboard broke today. Close to 400 quid to diagnose and
fix (we declined, its a huge chunk of the original price). Just ofer 4 years
old (which is nothing) and juuuuust out of the replacement programme Apple has
for keyboards they knew were faulty.

Lifelong Apple suporter until the past few years. Avoid like the plague.

~~~
tomduncalf
Ugh yeah the 4 year thing sucks. Apple should be saying 8 years or thereabouts
in my opinion. It’s clearly a design flaw that they were aware of (and still
are trying to paper over) on a very expensive product, but one which is
usually loved by customers. Seeing all the negativity this issue causes sucks,
as does knowing my 2017 will probably be useless as a laptop one day because
of it

------
mullingitover
It's telling that they immediately list these brand new laptops on their page
offering extended support for the defective keyboards[1].

Unpopular opinion, but I continue to believe Apple needs to just walk away
from the computer business. It's a negligible part of their core phone
business, and it shows. I really wish that they'd license the OS to let people
(and OEMs) build quality workstations.

[1] [https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-
for-m...](https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-
notebooks/)

------
randomsearch
My MacBook Air keyboard is a PITA with repeating and spurious keys. The
software is buggier ever week. Apps crash, OS X freezes. And I have similar
problems with my other Apple devices.

Problem is, it’s still far superior for anyone who needs to do technical and
general office work. Tried Linux, doesn’t cut it for the latter. And the
industrial design etc is still much better.

So Apple is on this downward trend in quality, and it worries me because
there’s no alternative. Are we just going to see productivity drop across the
board as Apple gradually regresses back to the mean?

We need more Apple-like companies designing great products.

------
achenatx
When the touchbar macbooks were announced,I immediately went out and bought a
used 2015 macbook. The great thing about them is that they are good for quite
a long time because macs dont tend to get bogged down over time

I love the unix lineage on Mac OS with a consumer ready GUI.

By far the #1 thing that keeps me from using windows as my main machine is the
registry.

I do have an old windows desktop that I upgraded with SSD and maxed out the
ram and it runs great with windows 10.

I also run windows 10 in parallels on my Mac (for the office suite and a few
windows only programs. Time machine backup works incredibly well and I can
100% rely on it. I can be up and running in minutes even if my windows 10
image gets completely destroyed.

I had a mac stolen, went to the store, bought a new one, restored from time
machine almost immediately.

The only thing Ive been disappointed in is that the stability of the last two
versions hasnt been great. I used to go months without a reboot, now I crash
about once every two weeks.

------
joshfraser
If only there was a way to buy it without that stupid touch bar.

------
slezyr
> Apple introduces first 8-core MacBook Pro, __the fastest Mac notebook ever
> __

You can use phrase "the fastest Mac notebook ever" each year when a new
notebook released.

~~~
copperx
They don't even have to release a new model.

~~~
lostlogin
We really wish they would though.

------
Cacti
The press release is downright misleading. For 8 cores, or even 6, you have to
buy the 15" model. Neither are available in the 13" model. And the 15", while
starting at $2399, is not the 8 core option, that is the old 6 core option.

And of course the 8 core option, at $2799, only has 512GB of disk space and
16GB RAM. If you want a reasonable 32GB and 1TB disk space (which presumably
you would if you have a use for 8 cores), it's a whopping $3,600.

And that is of course before accessories and tax.

I thought that after the overpriced iphone release they would have changed
their pricing on everything else, but I guess it's just same old apple.

~~~
bluedino
$3600 isn't all that much. Bought a G3 PowerBook for that much with 256GB of
RAM and 80GB HD.

~~~
gnicholas
256GB of RAM, eh?

~~~
jandrese
Back in 1999 that would have been the deal of the decade.

------
iscrewyou
When the first touchbar 15-inch came out, I went out and bought it as I was in
need of a computer and I was waiting for the release. I used it for maybe 2
days.... I went RIGHT back and bought a brand new last of the good non-
touchbar macbook pros from the preview year. I still have it and it still runs
great. I have never had any issues with it.

I've even filled out a survey that apple sent me about macbook pros a while
ago. And I explicitly wrote to go back in the design of the keyboards, the
ports and the thickness.

I will use this computer until I can't fix it anymore.

------
mackey
Didn't they announce the flex gate repair program today?

[https://www.macrumors.com/2019/05/21/apple-backlight-
service...](https://www.macrumors.com/2019/05/21/apple-backlight-service-
program-macbook-pro/)

~~~
pier25
It's only for the 13'' 2016 model.

------
eecc
Best 80-something € spent so far were on a new battery set
[https://eustore.ifixit.com/en/Parts/MacBook-Parts/Macbook-
Pr...](https://eustore.ifixit.com/en/Parts/MacBook-Parts/Macbook-
Pro/15/Retina/Late-2013/MacBook-Pro-15-Retina-Late-2013-Mid-2014-Battery.html)

Cost me 2 hrs and some bruised fingers but I'm good for years.

And if Apple hasn't amended this disaster when this battery fails, I'll
replace it again.

------
chasedehan
I continue to be amazed by releases on Macs about how "powerful" they are.

I use a Dell XPS running Ubuntu with 12 cores and 32GB of ram with a 1050 in a
15 inch. It is a really amazing platform, doesn't have these keyboard or
screen issues, and cost less than a MacBook Pro.

~~~
ClassyJacket
Can you link to the 12 core version? I wasn't aware of any laptop with 12
cores, and I can't find a reference to more than 6 on the Dell site.

------
rasfincher
I've just about given up on Apple. My spacebar on my 2017 15" MacBook Pro
started going bad after only three months. Bundle that with the pointless
Touchbar and the arrow key layout and I just can't see myself using another
until they sort all of that out.

I recently switched to a Dell XPS 15 9560 running Pop!_OS. Talk about a simple
setup for a Linux system running a HiDPI screen. Before that, I was running
Manjaro with i3 and it was fairly easy to set up but took a bit more fiddling.

------
dkarl
I think Apple needs a tick-tock development cycle where the tick is making
their products thinner and the tock is fixing all the usability and
reliability regressions.

------
coryfklein
Still only USB Type C ports though on a $2000 machine? It feels like such a
rip off. For two years now my primary device has been a MBP with _only_ USB
Type C, and for two years now I haven't had a single device I can plug into it
without a dongle.

I'm so sick of these fucking dongles. Thank god it still has the 3.5mm port,
because it must have taken an act of divinity to prevent _that_ part of the
Apple crazy from reaching the MBP yet.

------
blunte
Nice. But I don’t need more speed, I need longer battery life, a better
keyboard, and a screen that can, at least for short periods, be super bright
(for outdoor use).

Lack of speed ceased to by my concern with the 2013 MBP (which I still use
today).

------
mikestew
I'll get excited when they issue a press release detailing how the 5th
generation keyboard is _really_ going to fix it this time, because they gave
up on butterfly^W^W^W^Whave an amazing new mechanism. All the cores in the
world do me no good if I cannot efficiently input characters into the machine.

Better hurry up, Apple, the mid-2012 is starting to get cranky, and I wouldn't
want to have to buy a ThinkPad.

------
dzonga
I recently bought a thinkpad t490 and installed Manjaro. Best experience I
ever had on a laptop. Followed by my late 2012 Macbook pro that served me
faithfully for the past 6 years. At work, as front-end dev, I use a 15" 2018
Macbook pro.one of the worst laptops I ever used. Kernel panics weekly. Almost
as shitty as one of the Dell ultrabook I used in 2012 before I switched to a
Macbook

------
frogpelt
Is there a marketing person here who can help Apple come up with some good
copy for the thicker laptops they need to make?

They need to quit being so thin it seems.

~~~
lostlogin
“We listened”.

~~~
PascLeRasc
A 2016 Macbook Pro speaking at a graduation, saying "My generation has failed
you".

------
kabdib
Until they fix the keyboard _for real_ I'm not going there. I might hold out
for a USB type A port, too -- other companies make perfectly good laptops with
these.

How dependent is Apple on the "nerd factor" with its laptops? They definitely
got a boost from capturing designers and "hip engineers" a while back; if
these folks got disgusted and left, would it matter now?

------
ethagknight
Apple should really consider including AppleCare+ in these top end machines,
particularly given the quality issues of the current model. Apple should
provide some indication of confidence in their own workmanship. Or their
confidence in their Foxconn quality control commitments. Don’t push that
uncertainty off on the customer.

I love my 2016 MacBook Pro (touchbar is not great but kinda neat, I’ve
replaced my usb-b->a to usb b->c cables so only need a dongle to travel, I can
fly on the keyboard IFF my fingernails are trimmed very tight (lol), screen is
great, sound is great, it’s fast as hell).

However, as you can see in my comment history, I’ve had substantial issues
with keyboard and screen outside of warranty. Apple, fortunately and
rightfully, has completely taken care of it; but I had several days of
consternation while I had to wait and see what Apple decided to do. Makes me
really think twice spending a lot on a new one.

------
o10449366
I just upgraded my 13" 2015 Macbook Pro's SSD from 256GB -> 1 TB for ~100 USD.
With 16 GB of RAM, a great keyboard that's given me no issues, recently
replaced screen lamination under warranty, and now a faster and larger SSD, I
see absolutely no reason to upgrade to the new generation of Macbooks in the
next few years.

------
modzu
well what everyone seems to be missing here is this: we don't have a choice.
the alternatives are not better. so apple has no incentive to make its
products better, in fact there is incentive to make them worse in order to cut
costs and increase revenues (a luxury afforded by the lack of comptetition).
the profit margins on dongles are probably much greater than on anything in
the system. until something comes along to seriously challenge their monopoly,
or apple discovers the kind of pride it had under jobs, it will continue to
get worse (at least for us folk who actually _use_ these machines to their
potential. there is clearly a market for which they are stylish instagram
viewers). this is a great opportunity for MS, who is heavily courting
developers. now with linux subsystem et all and all that's left is to close
the trackpad gap. apple can fade away into irrelevance.

------
CommanderData
Any news on their broken keyboard design?

I might bite if they've fixed this. Oh and no touch bar.

~~~
wlesieutre
_> The MacBook Pro keyboard mechanism has had a materials change in the
mechanism. Apple says that this new keyboard mechanism composition will
substantially reduce the double type/no type issue. Apple will not specify
what it has done, but doubtless tear-downs of the keyboard will reveal what
has been updated._

They say it's improved. But check back in a year or so to see if it works,
because the 3rd gen revisions didn't end up fixing it before.

If you have a 3rd gen butterfly keyboard, replacements will now use the 4th
gen.

If you have a 1st or 2nd, they'll continue to replace the failing keyboards
with more failing keyboards. Lucky me!

In other news for the 2016 MBP, there's a new repair extension program for the
"Oops we made the display ribbon cable too short" issue. Haven't had that
problem myself, but this was an expensive goddamn laptop and I'm not
optimistic about its resale value or lifespan after the 4 year repair window
is up. Multiple known design flaws that cost $600-$800, and in the keyboard's
case are just putting in more of the same failure-prone parts.

------
Traster
Are the new 8-core CPUs fast enough to make them faster than the old CPUs were
before all the Intel bugs? Or are we just ponying up more cash for the same
level of performance?

------
TheKarateKid
Keyboard issues aside, these laptops are a thermal disaster. Mine heats up and
gets loud fans if 20% or more CPU is used for more than a minute or two.

My non-Retina MBP would need to be at 100% for 10-15+ minutes for the fans to
kick in at half the volume.

------
ddon
and looks like the same problematic keyboard :-/

~~~
michaelmior
It's really frustrating and I don't really want to go without my machine for
the time it would take to fix. Unshaky has really helped in making my keyboard
usable. It basically detects and eliminates duplicate keypresses within a
configurable threshold for each key.

[https://unshaky.nestederror.com/](https://unshaky.nestederror.com/)

~~~
fredsted
To me it’s absolutely insane that people have gone to the lengths of actually
writing software in order to fix a very basic issue with an extremely
expensive luxury product of the worlds largest company. One in this thread
mentioned using tape to cover up the Touch Bar in order to avoid triggering it
accidentally!

Apple ducked up big time with the post-2015 generation MacBooks, and it was
caused by the weird hunt for thinness and gimmicky features which nobody want
from a professional portable workstation.

"Thinner than a 2015 MacBook Pro" is last on most people’s wishlists. What
good is a thin laptop if the keyboard fails and the performance you pay for
can't be used since the operating temperature is too high?

It says a lot about a company when a large amount of customers just don’t care
for the new features and they just want the new performance in the old form
factor.

It’s like the ones who made the current generation never uses a laptop, and
has no idea about how people are actually using the product.

------
vijaybritto
Apple says the machines are 40% faster. But Intel has patched their ZombieLoad
vulnerability this week which is a 40% perf hit. So these machines are going
to be as fast as unpatched machines that we have today?!

~~~
Shank
The 40% performance drop only applies if you turn off hyperthreading, which
nobody (including Apple) is doing out of the box. You can consider these
processors vulnerable to ZombieLoad and unpatched out of the box. The timeline
for development of a new product like a laptop is so long that these have been
planned for months prior to the vulnerability announcement, if not a year or
more.

If you want a machine that doesn't have ZombieLoad, and is also Intel, you
have to wait until they really patch it in new hardware or disable
hyperthreading.

"The 40% figure is only with hyperthreading off" source:
[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210107](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT210107)

------
SomeHacker44
Still no 32GB RAM option on 13”. Still no option to remove Touch Bar. Still
almost the same keyboard. Pass.

------
windexh8er
Beyond all the comments about the poor fixability of the MBP (screens), the
absolutely horrid keyboard and the laughable amount of RAM in a $3200 laptop,
who actually wants these things? They are unusable for a professional who
actually types on them all day and now with the ever increasing Intel
performance tax why spend the extra money on a processor that will likely have
30-50% less performance than claimed the day you buy it. Apple has become the
brand of excess and ignorance.

------
bayareanative
I have an oct-core 13" WQHD 16 GiB/1 TiB SSD hackintosh with 10 hr battery
life. Screw Apple with their unrepairable, overpriced, horrible hardware is
unappealing.

~~~
czbond
How?

------
alt_f4
1\. No OLED

2\. No keyboard fix

3\. No thin bezels

4\. Still annoying touchbar.

5\. $2799 for the 8-core with 16GB RAM and only 512GB SSD.

Hahaha.. No, thanks.

~~~
toasterlovin
FWIW, this update includes an updated keyboard. Whether or not that's a fix
remains to be seen.

~~~
alt_f4
Given it is the 3rd attempt at fixing a fundamentally broken mechanism design,
I think it's fairly likely it doesn't actually fix anything.

Edit:

lol, they actually have already included this new laptop in the keyboard
replacement program:

[https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-
for-m...](https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-
notebooks/)

~~~
McDev
I find it astonishing that they've included it in the replacement program.
That gives me no confidence whatsoever, and after having replaced and returned
both 2016 and 2017 MBP models, I am going to stay well clear of this keyboard
form factor.

~~~
toasterlovin
I think you can actually interpret this new MacBook Pro's inclusion in the
repair program multiple ways. It _could_ mean that they don't have much
confidence in the updated keyboard. But it could also mean that they want to
reassure customers that they will be taken care of. Kinda like the free
bumpers in response to Antennagate: Antennagate wasn't actually a thing, but
they gave away free cases to mollify people and just shut the door on the
whole issue.

I have no idea which of those is the correct interpretation...

------
dharma1
How's the thermal handling with the 8core? Full speed for half a minute, then
throttled?

------
gigatexal
I know the keyboard is garbage but I always get AppleCare and treat my
machines very well but if I got a 2019 model with the butterfly keyboard I’d
be even more paranoid about dust and foreign particulates getting under the
keys. I’m still most productive on OSX but that is changing as the Linux
ecosystem gets better and better.

If they would just go back to the old pricing model and bring back a sane
robust keyboard people would be so much happier.

------
robertlf
I'm a web developer and I need a reliable keyboard that's comfortable to type
on. The MBP keyboards have been neither comfortable nor reliable since 2015.
I've been holding onto my 2015 MBP with it's scissors mechanism keyboard for
dear life. For the first time in ten years, my next laptop won't be a MBP.
It'll either be a Lenovo ThinkPad or a Dell Inspirion running Linux. Goodbye
Apple.

------
cfitz
Do not buy a new one until some other fool (like me) purchases one sight-
unseen and shares whether the machine runs without issues.

I did this with a top-spec'd 2016 MBP that eventually got replaced with a 2017
due to the frequency of problems. Recently spent too many hours getting my
2017 repaired (& back up to its previous state) for the same issues.

Very disappointing given the price point.

------
thesagan
I'll buy one after they remove that touchbar. Please remove the touchbar.

------
sigzero
If the internal fan layout didn't change this is going to be baaaad.

Apple, make it a little thicker to handle a better keyboard and cooling
system.

------
la_barba
Apple still makes very good products, but they're starting to move away from
differentiators that made them successful over others. A lot of computing
products are what I'd call "engineered to fail". In that, the design of the
product sucks in an objective way, and any technically minded person can see
the failure coming from a mile away. For e.g. buggy custom software for
stupidly trivial tasks like application/system updates, and then making it
worse by installing it as a kernel service, or using sub-par plasticky
components, poor frame construction, or pre-loading crap-ware, zero attention
to ergonomics, not caring if the vendor's software blends with the underlying
OS, not caring about UX impact of their software, etc.

------
princetman
For me 13” Retina MBP circa 2013 was the pinnacle of form factor, price, &
performance. Unfortunately they went out of support and employer forced us to
upgrade with 15” Touch MBP. I don’t have any complaints about keyboard, guess
I’m just lucky in that regards.

But new MacOS and hardware are frighteningly unstable. I have observed roughly
1 in 5 times that it’ll crash outright with blank screen when attached to
external display. Resetting PRAM, & SMC work for a couple of days and then
back to same behaviour. Apple Store had a quick look but stupid thing didn’t
crash so they blamed it on faulty cables at work and home. How can a cable can
cause it to crash even after disconnected?

Unless they up their game I’ll never spend my own money on another Mac.

------
satysin
I have a max spec 2018 15" MacBook Pro and I love it but this update is just
_dumb_.

The 2018 model can't fully use the current hexa-core CPU so slapping another
two cores in isn't going to help things. It is going to be basically useless
outside of ~5 seconds turbo boost.

While I haven't had a keyboard issue it is a _constant_ source of anxiety
which _sucks_. I was really hoping Apple would go with a redesign this year
(as unlikely as it was) and I had planned on selling this 2018 model and
upgrade but with the same keyboard and a pointless CPU update in same body I
will pass.

Hopefully _next year_ we see a redesign with a decent keyboard. Also got my
fingers crossed for a 120Hz ProMotion display.

------
bochoh
With every model that comes out I keep feeling better about my Mid-2015 15" i7
model. Thinking about buying an eBay OEM 1TB SSD and keeping it for the next 5
years at this point. If anyone has a SSD they'd be willing to part with please
reach out!

------
diziet
I assume the New CPUs are 14nm Coffee Lake-H:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_i9_micropro...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_i9_microprocessors#Coffee_Lake-
H_\(14_nm\))

------
deafcalculus
Will it be possible to use 8 cores effectively given the thermal limitations
of such a thin device? I wouldn't be surprised if the 6 core model gives about
the same level of performance for most workloads as the 8 core one.

------
macboiii
"MacBook Pro now delivers two times faster performance than a quad-core
MacBook Pro and 40 percent more performance than a 6-core MacBook Pro, making
it the fastest Mac notebook ever.1" Most useless quote ever.

------
bsaul
Funny how people used to be apple hardware sold the software after steve jobs
decided to end the mac clone strategy.

But judging by all the comments out there, it feels now that the only reason
people buy mac hardware is because of mac os.

~~~
mwfunk
I never had that impression, I always felt like the software sold the
hardware. The hardware was always premium hardware with premium prices and
correspondingly premium margins, but because the hardware was so good, people
who bought it mainly for the software felt good about their purchase, and
didn't mind paying extra for higher-end hardware than they might otherwise buy
for themselves. This avoids the race-to-the-bottom dynamic that resulted in
the Windows PC market getting saturated in low-quality, low-margin hardware
for so many years.

Put another way, having great software enables upselling thriftier consumers
on the hardware, which is the thing that actually makes money, especially now
that OS upgrades are free and don't make money on their own. As long as both
the software and the hardware are indeed great, then people feel good about
their purchase.

If it's no longer the best hardware (or the best software), then that positive
reinforcement loop goes away, and you end up with users who still like macOS,
but not as much as they used to, who are doubly frustrated because they feel
like they have to spend even more money on hardware that is no longer best-in-
class, and has features that they're paying extra for that they view as
negatives (touchbar, butterfly keyboard, unergonomically huge trackpad,
minimal ports, dongletown, unasked for levels of thinness that forces so many
compromises, greatly diminished resale value, etc.).

~~~
bsaul
I’m not sure how old you are, but for a very long time mac os was actually
almost a liability : you never knew if the software you needed was going to
run on that platform. That’s why mac was for a very long time used only in
niche markets ( sound and graphic designers, then developers started to use it
starting mac os X).

Also, you think to mix hardware with hardware power, but you seem to forget
design. The mac renaissance of the steve jobs 2 era started with a new line of
cute colored imacs, great advertising, and strong brand recognition. Those
kind of things you don’t get with software.

~~~
mwfunk
I’m old enough to remember the bad old days but it’s a good point. I was
specifically thinking of the post-MacOS, OS X (Panther and later especially)
era.

------
DenisM
It's remarkable that the reception on HN is so hostile, in stark contrast to
the old days. And yet Apple doesn't seem to care, marching on in their
reductionist quest.

Who are their target PRO users then, if not the developers?

------
rubyn00bie
What sort of frustrates me most about this isn't that I hate the touchbar, or
that I'll have to buy it, but that it's hard to find a system with competitive
specs that costs as much or less.

I want a system with an octo-core i9, 32GBs of RAM, a metal body, and a large
multi-touch trackpad. As much as I hate to say it, if you want a high-end
laptop, Apple still has the market. I found some Dells that are close spec
wise but not all the way there, or systems which are as thick as a deck of
magic cards... They're (apple) are gonna get my $4k whether I like it or not.

------
IloveHN84
What about the mitigation against MDS? Without hyperthreading, the advantages
are less perceivable.

And how expensive is it? No thanks, up to today, a Dell/Lenovo+Linux goes way
way better than MBP and the heavy OSX.

------
mark_l_watson
I had the most maxed-out 15” MacBook Pro at the job I just retired from (now
at 68 I am just writing and working on my side business developing a knowledge
graph- deep learning product). While it was a nice laptop, the System76 laptop
with a 1070 GPU I bought for myself blows away the MBPros for what I need
(good model training performance and really fast recompile’s of my Haskell
code base when I can’t ‘stack —fast’).

I have a fairly new MacBook that I still love for its portability and it is
great for light weight stuff, but it is not my main driver.

------
_raoulcousins
There are some really cool custom Thinkpads shoving new guts into the classic
T60 body. I guess it's not really feasible for MacBooks? I looked for a 2012
or 2013 body with new hardware but nothing.

My 2013 is still working, but the screen hinge is loose and it's probably
wearing on the display cable. Nothing new there, though. The display cable was
the first thing to fail on my white iBook around 2005.

Wish I still had the Macintosh Portable with the built in carrying handle and
roller ball I found at a garage sale! Now that would be a neat mod. Talk about
a good keyboard.

------
macboiii
"MacBook Pro now delivers two times faster performance than a quad-core
MacBook Pro and 40 percent more performance than a 6-core MacBook Pro, making
it the fastest Mac notebook ever.1"

most useless math ever

------
actuator
So, I need a personal laptop and I think I will go for the 2013-2015 rMBP. I
want to go for X1 Carbon but haven't had nice experience with Ubuntu on it.

I looked at the 4 core i7 configurations and they have Geekbench score of
13k-14k. So, doesn't seem that bad compared to the new processors and should
hold up on CPU front for three more years I guess.

I had a question to people who use 15" MBPs. Since I am not able to get 13"
ones with 16 GB RAM. Are the 15" noticeably bulky and less mobile than 13"
ones?

~~~
ballzoffury
Oh no, I was looking to get an x1 carbon because of the supposedly great Linux
support. What kind of problems where you experiencing? And was it the 14", or
the extreme?

~~~
actuator
This was the 2017 14" X1 Carbon(not the extreme one). Mostly battery issues,
it was holding up very less on sleep and in use. I was using Ubuntu and Ubuntu
actually certifies the hardware. The keyboard was just plain awesome though. I
don't think you would find a better keyboard in the slim form factor.

Since this was an office one, I returned it and continued on my 2014 rMBP. It
might have been fixed now btw. I will also try the newer X1s I can before
finalizing on one.

------
backpackway
Switched last year to Lenovo and while the ecosystem around Windows has for
sure its issues, it's still night and day. I've been decades on Macs and I
lost the interest for computers then. Since I am back to Windows/mainly WSL
somehow this interest came back.

Back then, I was smiling at those PC builders with their RGB 'crap' but now
I'd love to build my own battlestation with RGB everywhere. The PC ecosystem
is more authentic, honest and more about tech.

------
hw
Yet another with the horrendous Touchbar. Looks like I'll be holding on to my
2012 MBP for a while more. Maybe will look for a like new 2015 one if there
are any still out there.

------
mmastrac
If I get a new Apple laptop, it'll be on a business lease because there's just
_way_ too much risk in owning one of these new models with the display and
keyboard problems.

------
jjellyy
I think everyone is overreacting to this. Yes Ive had to buy a can of
compressed air but otherwise I like the new keyboard feel and key size.
Considering all the tradeoffs im happy

------
thrower123
At that price point, I couldn't see the point of buying a Mac Pro, versus
buying a real desktop and a disposable Asus or Acer or Chromebook for the rare
times I need to lug something around.

I think the only thing that might tempt me is if they brought back the 17"
form factor, but I don't think they have made those for almost a decade. Those
things were monsters, and everyone I know who had one rode it until it
wouldn't go anymore.

------
cutler
Having used a Hackintosh as my desktop for the last 10 years without issue I'm
inclined to attempt the same for my laptop now that my 2013 Macbook Pro is
looking a bit old. At nearly half the price it's becoming a no-brainer. Are
there high-end laptops with screens comparable to Apple's retina display
nowadays? I'm also assuming disk and RAM can be replaced in Dells and
ThinkPads but maybe I'm mistaken?

------
dzhiurgis
For people with double entry keyboard issue, I highly recommend
[https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky](https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky) \- uses
software to ignore double entry. Mine(2018) has developed an issue within 3
months of hard use on one of the worst keys - backspace.

I've introduced over 5 bugs because of this shite, by randomly deleting one
dangling brace...

------
ralphc
I'm on a Mid 2012 MacBook Pro, i7, 16GB of RAM, it does the job for most of my
development. My problem is, not development work, but my dependence on the
MacOS ecosystem over the past 13 years. Music & iPhone in iTunes, Photos app
etc. I can do Java, Python, Node on a PC with Linux but I still need some kind
of Mac. What do all the Mac apostates do about that?

------
mikl
And quadruples down on their shitty keyboard design. I guess they never heard
of the sunk cost fallacy or the old adage about polishing turds.

------
luckydata
Did they introduce a keyboard that doesn't suck?

------
hayksaakian
To anyone who has used the apple keyboard service program:

[https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-
for-m...](https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-
notebooks/)

How long does it take to get your macbook back?

I'm having this issue and I want to figure out how long i'm going to be out of
commission for

~~~
gnicholas
They're now replacing them in-store. It was 4 days when I took mine in to the
Palo Alto store, back when they had to ship it out.

------
mvip
Still on "MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Late 2013)," which is probably my 5th
Macbook Pro (or equivalent) Been waiting for ages for Apple to fix their shit
with the keyboard and make 32GB RAM an option for the 13". Hell will probably
freeze over before any of that happens. Most likely, I'll have to get a
desktop Mac and a Linux laptop.

------
dkobia
I work on both a MacBook pro 15 with 32 gb and a Thinkpad X1 Carbon 32gb
everyday. Apple is still light years ahead. The inconsistent UI on a Windows
machine is infuriating, but Office is unsurprisingly powerful for teams.
8-core? I'll happily take it. Windows is retarded. The lack of empathy in user
experience adds up to countless wasted hours.

------
tartrate
These announcements are getting just as cringey as the Wolfram
announcements...

    
    
        "the fastest Mac notebook ever" (x3)
        "is more powerful than ever" (x2)
        "the best Mac notebook display ever"
    

and

    
    
        "the latest version of the world’s most advanced desktop operating system."

------
arihant
Honestly, with the new Pro laptops having so much issues, my next Mac setup
will be an iMac with an Air. After using the 2018 model, I have a different
level of respect for my 2015.

So much double typing on 2018, who designed that keyboard? It is not even a
Pro laptop for authors anymore, who arguably need the least computing power.

------
totaldude87
Pro mid 2012 user here ,oved to SSD couple of years earlier and added 4gigs of
ram this year and happy customer ever.

Unfortunately I use external hard disk as boot , and in recent releases of
MacOS I think apple started pushing towards fusion drive due to which had to
buy a new ssd and move again ( any other alternatives?)

------
whalesalad
Knock on wood my Macbook Pro that is now about 6 months old has been holding
up flawlessly. Keyboard is great.

------
MrLeftHand
The whole thing can't keep a 4 core CPU from overheating and throttling. Not
too mention with that small power brick and the USB-C charging cable, you
can't even provide enough power to that beast of CPU regardless of i9 being
less power hungry then the i8 is.

Apple just doesn't want to learn.

------
bborud
It says something about Apple when my first reaction is "yeah...I'm going to
hang back and see if this laptop too is going to have lots of problems".

Apple's war on repair shops doesn't make me want to spend a lot of money on an
Apple laptop. It's just a bad investment.

------
multibit
I have a 2015 Retina Macbook Pro and it is still fast enough for me. When it
fails I will either buy another of the same model or get a PC and put Linux on
it. What Apple has done to this product line is awful. At best it's just bad
design, at worst it's exploitative.

------
wlll
I'll buy a new Macbook Pro the day Apple return Magsafe, a keyboard that I can
distinguish between individual keys with my fingers, doesn't break, and isn't
loud, and a no-touchbar option.

Until then my 2014 MBP will have to suffice, and if that breaks I'll use
Linux.

------
totololo
Does it mean the rumored 16" MBP is dead?
[https://9to5mac.com/2019/02/19/macbook-pro-16-inch-
concept-r...](https://9to5mac.com/2019/02/19/macbook-pro-16-inch-concept-
renders/)

------
scarface74
I just can’t see myself spending that much on a laptop. I can’t productively
use my laptop for day to day use without connecting it to two external
monitors and keyboard anyway.

You can get an 8 Core 27 inch 5K iMac $100 cheaper, with less thermal
constraints.

Sure I would take one if my company paid for it.

~~~
swozey
Having one desktop-powerful machine that can turn into a laptop when you
unplug it from its dock and go with me anywhere is well worth the extra $100.
And I'm saying this as someone with a dedicated desktop just for
rendering/games. The desktop gives me customization and upgradability but the
fact that I lose portability is huge and I'll never, ever own just a desktop
machine. I'd prefer to own a laptop that can do my desktop duties when docked.

~~~
dharma1
that's the theory, but in real life the macbook won't sustain 5ghz for very
long at all, even less so with 8 cores. It simply can't get rid of the heat
fast enough and throttles the speed to stay under thermal limits (while still
toasting your balls).

The situation isn't helped by the GPU inside the same slim mbpro chassis that
also gets super hot, it's particularly bad when you run mixed CPU/GPU
workloads like rendering. So your desktop ends up being much faster for
continuous workloads, even if on paper they both have 8-core 5ghz CPUs.

I had the 2018 6-core i9 mbpro. Got rid of it, if I were to buy a new mbpro
again I would get a 4-core one.

~~~
scarface74
So for GPU intensive workloads at least, it seems to make more sense to get a
lower spec’d laptop for the road and an external GPU as a docking station if
you need the portability.

~~~
dharma1
Definitely.

Apple has a couple of eGPUs they made with Blackmagic (AMD RX580 - you don't
want this one - and Vega 56), very slick looking and silent but unfortunately
GPUs not user upgradeable and not great value for money.

You can use most tb3 eGPU enclosures and an AMD GPU of your choice. Vega64
prob the best choice now, Navi around the corner, can't use NVidia at all
thanks to Apple. It'll cost you less than the official Apple eGPU and the GPU
will be upgradeable

------
errantspark
I would be so wildly impressed if this was any better in continuous workloads
than the next model down, or even a couple models down. There's no way in hell
there's enough thermal headroom for that CPU to fire on all cylinders for more
than 30 seconds or so.

------
JoachimS
900+ comments and basically all about the HW issues (keyboard, display
connector) and uselessness of the touchbar. Doesn't look good for Apple.

(I had to replace my 2015 MBP13 with the a late 2018 model. I am too mightily
disappointed and would not buy a new Apple laptop).

------
ratsimihah
Still no CUDA. Does this one come with a keyboard? I think I'll stick to my
almighty 2015.

------
mlang23
As long as they dont do away with the Touch Bar, I am not going to get one.
People use machines with real keyboards for a reason. Ruining that experience
by forcing a touch component onto a keyboard user is just absurd!

------
randomsofr
I got the 2017 model and i regret it, i spent almost 3k for the fully equipped
13" and already had to replace the display ($500 at local authorized shop) and
have the keyboard problem. I wish i had stayed with my 2015 :(

------
tcarn
My boycott of the Macbook "Pro" will continue until they add additional I/O
ports (including HDMI and standard USB ports) and until they add a num pad (a
big reason I've stuck with Windows over the years).

~~~
kitsunesoba
I would hope that if MBPs gain a numpad, it’s optional. For many it’s dead
space that moves the home row and trackpad off center, making for an awkward
typing position. In my case I won’t even consider a laptop that doesn’t have a
no-numpad variant available.

------
mizzack
This is pretty pointless considering the previous hex core i9 offering ran
into a thermal wall regularly.

Without meaningfully overhauling the cooling system there is no reason to
think that an 8 core on the same process is going to fare well.

------
kod
Typing this on a Dell Precision 7530. Comes stock with Ubuntu. 128gb of ram, 4
times what Apple offers, at close to the same cost. Linux font rendering still
sucks, but I may never use another Apple product again.

------
ndrake
[https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-
for-m...](https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-
notebooks/)

------
jk563
Am I reading this update correctly? Is it now impossible to get a new Apple
Laptop < 15" with 16GB of RAM?

Looks like a Matebook X Pro next time for me, or an XPS. Thankfully my '14 MBP
runs beautifully still.

------
chx
It is really tiresome to see every single thing Apple introduces here... but
when Lenovo introduced the X1 Extreme with the exact same CPU, where's the HN
article? Why the fruit toy is so important?

------
lylo
The latest Apple magic keyboard has butterfly-like keys and is an absolute joy
to type on. No issues after a couple of years of daily use. Why can’t this
mechanism find its way into a MBP?

~~~
saagarjha
> The latest Apple magic keyboard has butterfly-like keys

I don't think it does.

------
app
Just replaced the battery and threw new thermal paste on my Mid-2014 15" for
$300. Discrete graphics, no TouchBar and a keyboard with travel. I hope this
thing runs for another 5 years.

------
seaghost
I'm still using 6 years old MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013, bought
refurbished version) with Intel Core i7 at 2GHz with 8GB of RAM and 256 SSD,
couldn't' be happier.

------
hartator
Does that mean we won’t have a real update at the usual June event? :(

------
bartimus
I'm fairly sure my 2012 core-i7 MacBook Pro with SSD and 16GB ram still has
comparable performance for most applications. Single core speed has pretty
much stagnated over the years.

------
consultSKI
When my MBP Mid 2010 died, I bought a Samsung Chrome 3 with 4gig of RAM. It
runs linux and 80% of the Android apps. And the battery lasts all day. I may
never buy another computer.

------
obahareth
The many failures (keyboard, screen, random freezes that need a hard shutdown)
forced me to also switch to an XPS 13 on Kubuntu. I wish Apple would make a
good Macbook again.

------
donaldihunter
The touchbar is an abortion. A touchpad screen would have been a better
innovation. Two dimensional touch area with multi gesture and visual feedback
– just like an iphone.

------
ilovecaching
OLED is the future of laptop displays (all displays really). I won't buy a new
MacBook Pro until we get one. Until then I'm looking to get the new X1
Extreme.

------
NightlyDev
Who cares if it's an 8 core that boosts to 5 GHz? The cooling on Macbooks is
thrash and it will throttle on sustained multithread workloads.

------
paradox1234
Anyone have the latest scuttlebutt on the switch from Intel to ARM processors?
My sources of mac gossip are pretty outdated these days...

------
sheinsheish
No thank you. Sticking with iMac for the next 3 years. After having to return
the new MacBook Pro with the fantastic shaky new ports.

------
znpy
Meanwhile, non-touchbar 13" macbook pros still have dual-core cpus.

Somebody might say "Apple continues the war against its own users".

------
joemaller1
None of the promo pictures show the keyboard, Touch Bar or trackpad. CPU speed
is not the reason I haven't upgraded. Those are.

------
teilo
Glad to see a laptop with Coffee Lake. AVX-512 makes a big difference for code
that can use it.

Also in this update: Pro Vega 20 GPU is an option.

~~~
MikusR
Cofee Lake has no avx-512

~~~
teilo
You're right.

------
j-c-hewitt
>8-core Intel Core processors, delivering Turbo Boost speeds up to 5.0 GHz,
while the 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar features faster quad-core
processors with Turbo Boost speeds up to 4.7 GHz.

Cooled by what? Oh, right, almost nothing. If you actually know enough about
computers to know what those numbers mean, you also know that those clock
speeds cannot be sustained with this laptop's cooling solution. It is just
baffling people who don't know better with numbers.

------
jdashg
Woah, are they leading the market into 8c (16t?) notebooks? They lagged most
vendors in shipping 6c notebooks previously.

~~~
wmf
Lenovo already announced the 8C Thinkpad X1 Extreme although it isn't shipping
yet.

------
musicale
Did they fix that horrible "butterfly" keyboard and the trackpad with
completely broken palm rejection?

------
eugeniub
To the people still complaining about dongles: It's 2019. Maybe buy a couple
of USB-C cables and move on?

------
higgy
I use a mid-2012 MacBook Pro that still feels ahead of the newer stuff.
Progress isn't always linear.

------
skywhopper
Fascinating that the embedded pictures don't even show the keyboard (or the
much-unloved Touch Bar).

------
geophile
Useless. Same crappy, defective 5/6 of a keyboard, and defective display.

I jumped ship. Love my System 76 Darter.

------
rbanffy
I find it rather disappointing they didn't announce 8-core iMacs and Mac Minis
at the same time.

------
reasonablemann
Material change now after the `quieting` mechanism. The can just keeps getting
kicked down the road.

------
jimmcslim
“Apple introduces 8-core MacBook Pro”*

* Performance now equivalent to 6 cores due to Intel microcode vulnerabilities

------
Teknoman117
But ... did they fix the keyboard?

------
vernie
Great, no need for a new Mac Pro!

------
valleyjo
lots of talk about the keyboards and the displays. But did they fix the
thermal issues?

------
mastrsushi
8 cores and no working keyboard

------
baxtr
I just love my 2018 MB pro, including its keyboard. Am I crazy? Am I the only
one?!

~~~
jstsch
Nope. Me too. My 2018 MBP 15" is my dream laptop. The machine I've always
wanted. Superfast. Light to carry everywhere. Comfy to work with on the couch.
Connects to 2 5K displays at my desk. Even the speakers are decent. The 2016's
keyboard was too clicky/rattley, but the 2018's is nice and tight.

------
undoware
Command-F K E Y B O A R D

'keyboard' not found

Command-W

------
robocat
What model of Intel CPU is it?

------
GiorgioG
Do these machines lose any performance due to Intel’s latest vulnerability?

------
mtgx
Do these come with HT off and other MDS mitigations enabled by default?

------
eeeeeeeeeeeee
Same great keyboard! /s

Utterly ridiculous they haven’t redone this keyboard yet.

------
skilled
Why does it show Fortnite gameplay on the screen? What the fuck?

------
dfrey
16 -> 32 GB of ram is a $400 option... ouch

------
calebm
32Gb 13inch MBP please.

------
jtl999
Wonder how bad this is going to thermal throttle.

------
gondo
so this means no macbook pro upgrade during the next apple wwdc event (june
the 3rd). i was secretly hoping for a redesign

------
petoskystone
Who even needs a laptop that powerful

------
residentfoam
after many years of MacBook Pro I recently switched to Lenovo x1 6th + Ubuntu
and never looked back .

------
JanSuly
Apple tries to make me a fan of them

------
rehemiau
Until it overheats and throttles :)

------
djbelieny
Thank you but no, thank you. Too little, for too much, too late. In the best
GoT tradition: NOT TODAY!

------
wpdev_63
Why would you want to spend 2k+ on a laptop with an abysmal keyboard?

~~~
swozey
I buy $3k laptops. The only time they're not docked is when I'm on a plane or
on my couch..

~~~
wpdev_63
Apparently buying a macbook is like being a battered wife making excuses for
her husband. It's sad and unfortunate.

~~~
swozey
I can guarantee after owning 30+ laptops in my life you won't find one that I
consider the perfect match so I'm just to the point where I know what I want
and can deal with flaws in other places as long as that one desire is
answered. Unfortunately what I want is OSX..

But trust me I've got Amazon open and am ready to swipe right on something new
and better whenever it comes along.

------
petoskystone
Who even needs a laptop that powerful?

~~~
dagw
For whatever reason a lot of companies are going laptop only. The company I
work, for example basically banned workstations in the latest round of
upgrades. So a lot of people who need what would be a moderately powerful
desktop computer end up having to buy ridiculously powerful laptops like this
one.

------
lone_haxx0r
But do they have an escape key?

------
joering2
$1,800 for 13-inch laptop.

------
usr1987
nothing about the keyboard?

------
sridca
Thinkpad X1 Extreme 2nd generation too.

9th Generation Intel® Core i9-9880H with vPro (2.30GHz, up to 4.80GHz with
Turbo Boost, 8 Cores, 16MB Cache) _

------
woofwoofwoof
Glad I bought the case for my mbp 13 2015.

------
clarry
Still using Intel CPUs, judging by the fine print.

~~~
MBCook
They won’t switch without a period for developers to get ready, like the PPC
to Intel transition.

~~~
timw4mail
Switching to AMD shouldn't require anything from a developer.

~~~
MBCook
Agreed. I was assuming ARM.

However I don’t see Intel switching to AMD. They have all the same problems,
more or less. Primarily Apple has little control over their future with an
outside supplier.

------
revskill
Apple Computers should have SSD built-in.

~~~
jandrese
Isn't the SSD on these soldered to the motherboard? You can't get any more
built-in than that.

------
yakshaving_jgt
What’s that Apple? You still haven’t fixed the keyboard?

Well then I won’t be buying one.

------
dirkg
The MacBook has always been mediocre hardware hyped and marketed beyond all
reason. Even way back all the nonsense about unibody construction was a total
myth, Thinkpads were even more durable but didnt have the hype.

Apple knows they will keep selling these things due to the brand image.

------
bussierem
Okay but hold on a second, I didn't see this in any of the comments so far:

A fully specced new macbook pro with the i9 costs 6500 DOLLARS.

i9 CPU, 32GB RAM, 4TB SSD, and Vega Pro GPU.

I have spent, in 15 years of owning/building computers and laptops, around
$8000 total. The fact that these numbers are even comparable is insane.

------
m0zg
As a Vim user: no physical escape key, no deal. I've recently tried working on
one of these, and the bar is really annoying for another reason: as you switch
between apps it keeps changing right in the corner of your vision, distracting
from what's going on on the screen. WTF were they thinking?

~~~
thruhiker
I was also of this mind but I'm really pleased with the workaround of mapping
Caps Lock to Escape (more ergonomic when using Escape) and mapping Left Shift
+ Right Shift to Caps Lock when pressed simultaneously. I use Karabiner-
Elements
([https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/document.html](https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/document.html))
to implement these remaps in addition to some others such as Shift +
Delete/Backspace for forward delete.

~~~
dguo
Seconded, though I also make my caps lock function as control when held down:
[https://www.dannyguo.com/blog/remap-caps-lock-to-escape-
and-...](https://www.dannyguo.com/blog/remap-caps-lock-to-escape-and-control/)

------
nippler
Love these overpriced facebook machines lmao

