
Social media encourages us to follow those we envy - nomadictribe
http://nautil.us/issue/31/stress/is-facebook-luring-you-into-being-depressed
======
jerf
Here on HN, over the years I've mentioned my "spouse firewall" for Facebook,
which I considered to be the perfect level of involvement.

Well, about a month ago my spouse firewall very nearly failed entirely. The
problem was that with her mature Facebook account, with dozens of "friends"
with a ton of other "friends", the stream of continuous bad news just became
too much. Partially that's particular to some relationships we have, but even
ignoring those, it was _still_ an unrelenting stream of people having surgery,
complications, financial troubles, and then very bizarrely mixed in with cute
puppy photos, and then mixed in with political shitfits, to say nothing of
some _other_ family's "drama", all mixed with a "healthy" helping of
continuous ads.

As it turns out, my firewall "recovered", but usage has been toned _way_ down,
and a lot of people got themselves hidden.

It gets said on HN every so often, but MySpace and the previous social
networks often collapsed virtually overnight. I still think there's a good
chance Facebook could still go that way.

Edit: Sorry, my "spouse firewall" is that my wife is on Facebook and I have no
account. I hear about the family gatherings and other such things announced
only on Facebook that way, but don't have to have an account myself. So it's
like a "firewall" filtering out only the most important stuff.

~~~
qntty
I'm interested to hear what a "spouse firewall" is

~~~
blowski
If it's the same as mine, it means that I don't have a Facebook account, but
my spouse tells me what's on Facebook that I need to know.

------
markatkinson
I deleted (deleted, not deactivated) my Facebook profile 4 years ago. It had
clearly become an addiction, kinda like my mobile phone is now (cost/benefit
balance of mobile phone is still too good to throw away).

I remember actually having withdrawals in the first few weeks. Not sure if it
was withdrawals or muscle memory that kept kicking in to check my feed, but
there was an element of angst not being connected to the feed.

Now I am quite happy without it (almost liberated), and trying to spend that
time I would have spent on Facebook doing something that adds value to my life
like reading HN! Surprisingly my circle (more of a triangle) of friends still
exists, even without Facebook.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Ex-heavy Facebook user here (multiple times per hour) - I stopped checking it
altogether and uninstalled the app about 3 weeks ago, just to see how I would
get on. I know exactly the feelings you're talking about. After a week cold
turkey I'm now back to checking much more infrequently (a couple of times a
day) but it takes a huge amount of willpower to use it passively and not like
/ comment / post anything.

I'd delete my account altogether but I find the Messenger really useful and I
manage a few pages / events on there, not to mention wanting to keep up with
some distant family. It's amazing how they've managed to create this feeling
of dependence.

What's also amazing is just how much more productive I've been over the past
few weeks without the constant (self-inflicted) interruptions!

~~~
gnrme
It's the fear of missing out. All the social media services build their
foundation on that addiction. Once you delete the accounts then the feeling
slowly goes away and you get back to what life was like before all this
nonsense started.

~~~
gherkin0
> It's the fear of missing out. All the social media services build their
> foundation on that addiction. Once you delete the accounts then the feeling
> slowly goes away and you get back to what life was like before all this
> nonsense started.

And Facebook explicitly tries to prevent you from getting rid of that
addiction. They have a "feature" that kicks in after a few days of non-use to
incessantly remind you via email that you're missing out. So-and-so posted a
picture, etc.

As far as I can tell, there's no way to disable them without also disabling
emails for event invites and direct messages, which is just shitty. I've had
to setup gmail filters to get rid of them.

------
jonstokes
This is probably the primary reason that I can't get behind the Zuckerberg
worship, no matter how much philanthropy he's involved in or how dedicated he
is to self-improvement and so on. The man's main contribution to humanity is
the spiritual equivalent of cigarettes -- toxic, addictive by design, and
marketed to young people. It's gross. FB is gross, and that makes Zuckerberg
gross.

~~~
BenderV
Zuckerberg is not responsable for the existence of the Friendship Paradox or
our natural instinct to envy, etc. Facebook mission in itself, is good. We
have no reason to doubt Zuckerberg honesty to do good. Do you have any example
where Facebook did something that they knew was bad but still did it?

It's true that social network bring bad side effects, everything does. They
can only try to correct them.

~~~
bad_user
> _Do you have any example where Facebook did something that they knew was bad
> but still did it?_

Yes, here's a study on manipulating the feed of over 600,000 users, in order
to elicit an emotional response. Without asking for permission of course,
because apparently you agree to FB playing mind tricks on you when "agreeing"
to their terms and conditions. Really, it can't get worse than this and they
have no justification.

Here's the resulting paper:
[http://www.pnas.org/content/111/24/8788.full.pdf](http://www.pnas.org/content/111/24/8788.full.pdf)

~~~
cryoshon
Ah yes, I had forgotten about this unethical chestnut you have brought forth.
This is the kind of research which would never (and I do mean literally
never-- no chance, zero, nada, zilch) get approved by an institutional review
board (IRB) if a scientist wanted to perform a similar experiment. There was
no consent process, and the study aimed to effect a tangible and measurable
emotional change, for no real greater good/purpose.

~~~
res0nat0r
You are aware that every advertisement you look at every day has been designed
to elicit an emotional response yes? The advertisers in the newspaper,
Internet and billboard down the street didn't get your opt in permission
either.

~~~
saiya-jin
that doesn't make it any more moral. just because others are already doing it,
is it automatically OK?

~~~
TeMPOraL
Actually it does. They did something relatively harmless for science (and
maybe, indirectly, for profit). The whole advertising industry is based on
doing worse things, all the time, for pure profit. That this Facebook study is
a subject of an outrage is, frankly, ridiculous.

~~~
fbbbbb
That is an appeal to tradition, and it a fallacy. It isn't moral for
advertisers to do harmful things to users just because most advertisers do it.

Most scientist do not do harmful things to their subjects. Modern science
requires consent. So your fallacious argument, even if it weren't, fails to
argue correctly in the first place, because scientists aren't advertisers.

Facebook study was done without consent. It was harmful to their users
(subjects) because it interfered with their emotions. It is immoral.

The outrage might seem ridiculous, from the perspective of an advertiser,
because, as you said, they do worst things all the time, so this study is
hardly appalling for them. But from the perspective of other people, it is.

I hope this gave you an insight into (our) reaction to the study.

------
iolothebard
I just unsubscribed from everyone's feed. No need to be that drastic (deleting
facebook). If I want to catch up on someone's life, I simply look at their
page (like in 2005 pre-feed).

If you're so concerned about people's "staged moments", it seems you should
create the life you want for yourself instead of assuming their moments are
"staged". I'll never understand envy, such a childish emotion.

~~~
cylinder
Yep, this is the key. I like occassionally sharing our photos with family, and
the messaging is convenient. Feed doesn't make me depressed, it makes me
annoyed at how stupid my "friends" are. I've just been hiding people more and
more and then I'm liberated of their stressful stupidity.

------
kartan
"...we inadvertently make our friends feel like losers and contribute to a
swirling vortex of envy, in which we ourselves risk drowning."

I always had the feeling that this attitude is worst in the United States than
in other places. I guess that it is related to the way society tries to
categorize others as winners/losers instead of looking at life as a shadow of
greys. And how it blames people for being poor instead of taking into account
different circumstances. (But, of course, is not an USA only problem)

If you want to be happier on-line and off-line stop looking at others with
envy and begin to look them for inspiration. Have they meaningful lives? How
can I improve mine?

If being connected to social networks makes you unhappy disconnecting is the
right thing to do. But if envy is what makes you disconnect then your problem
is also off-line and sooner or later you will need to get over it if you want
to be realised and happy.

~~~
unclebucknasty
> _envy is what makes you disconnect then your problem is also off-line and
> sooner or later you will need to get over it if you want to be realised and
> happy._

While I somewhat agree with this in spirit, the truth of it is that our well-
being is a relative proposition. We are social creatures, living within a
social construct.

Hence, even in your suggestion that we look to others to ask whether they have
meaningful lives and seek inspiration from them, you are encouraging people to
measure themselves against others.

But that begs the question that is the subject of this article. The notion
that others have more meaningful lives is itself skewed by Facebook. So,
viewed through that lens, nothing I do will make my life as meaningful as it
"should" be.

And, this need not have anything to do with the typical negative connotation
of envy--that is, jealousy--in order to be harmful. I can be genuinely happy
for the success I perceive in others, while simultaneously receiving the
message that my own life is lacking.

~~~
kartan
> our well-being is a relative proposition Yes. But you can change the
> framework you work with. You can relativize the situation (e.g. take into
> account that some one had a better starting position in life than you). You
> can compare different things (e.g. wealth vs wisdom). Even you can compare
> agains worst scenarios instead of ideal situations. To be happy at all costs
> will be delusional. But I believe that to achieve small goals, to move
> forward to the person that you want to be should improve your well-being.

> nothing I do will make my life as meaningful as it "should" be If you change
> "should" by "can" then I agree. We never will achieve our "full potential"
> as seen on some not-so-good self-help books. Because that is unrealistic. We
> will make mistakes. We will change goals. That idealised state is no
> achievable but I think that having it as a moving target is helpful.

> typical negative connotation of envy--that is, jealousy--in order to be
> harmful Agree. I made a bad use of words. I meant jealousy.

> I can be genuinely happy for the success I perceive in others, while
> simultaneously receiving the message that my own life is lacking. I agree.
> And that's a good thing about comparisons. You can find things that you lack
> and you can try to achieve them.

------
compactmani
Hmm, I've always thought that communication filtered and manipulated by
corporate incentive was the most depressing part of Facebook.

It looks like there are other reasons to find Facebook depressing.

------
l1n
Nautil.us seems to be down right now. Cache link:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:lhjrzN6...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:lhjrzN6OLJ0J:nautil.us/issue/31/stress/is-
facebook-luring-you-into-being-depressed+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) EDIT:
seems to be back up now. Archive just in case:
[https://archive.is/l2oWo](https://archive.is/l2oWo)

------
Mikeb85
The main problem with social media is that we (generally) post only the good
moments in our lives. Leading to the idea that everyone else's lives are
always awesome.

We see the good and bad in our own lives, but see only the absolute best of
other peoples' lives, leading to feelings of inadequacy.

Now that's not to say it's Facebook's fault. We also generally keep pictures
of our 'best' moments in our house. The problem is that, when everyone else's
'best' is on tap, visible so easily, we often forget that everyone is mortal.

If someone were to look on my Facebook (which is now deactivated), they'd see
travel adventures, me and my wife dressed up, doing fun things, etc... They
wouldn't see me stressed out drinking cup after cup of coffee before a test.
Even if I post the dinner I make every day, they wouldn't see the pile of
dishes afterwards.

Anyhow, I don't think Facebook is necessarily the cause, it just magnifies our
weaknesses. And people have become so vain that I see people who go out just
to get that 1 picture to post, not to enjoy themselves. The current generation
are becoming more vain, because too many are obsessed with social media and
the need to always appear perfect. In the old days when you saw your friends
only once a week, it was far easier to hide weakness.

As far as following celebrities, the problem is that it's a celebrity's JOB to
appear perfect all the time. The 40-60 hours we spend trying to be good at our
profession is 40-60 hours they spend trying to be good at promoting themselves
and appearing perfect.

Furthermore, celebrity worship just reinforces the lottery nature of our
society. It's not good enough any more to have money, or to have friends. You
need to be rich, and have followers...

------
jarmitage
In a perfect world we would have the social plumbing without the psychological
manipulation. But we're not, so here's how I've found how to make do with
Facebook without it poisoning my brain. And yes I do benefit from it a lot,
which is why I'm not leaving.

This is what my redux version of Facebook looks like, using custom uBlock
filters - basically just news feed and notifications. Manages to eliminate
~90% of their manipulation attempts I reckon.

[http://i.imgur.com/kRTI7Un.png](http://i.imgur.com/kRTI7Un.png)

Other tips: unsubscribe from anything/one whose posts you don't want to see
(sounds obvious if you're disciplined about this it makes a lot of
difference), stick to messages only but inbox 0 it so you aren't storing
useful info there, get event requests sync'd to an external calendar, untick
'remember' when you login.

I've found it totally manageable this way, and am cautiously hopeful that one
day it wont be necessary once the Silicon Valley psychopaths grow up.

~~~
legulere
Also don't use the like button for anything except stuff friends post
themselves. Otherwise you will get spammed with that stuff and you will get
less of what your actual facebook friends post. You can remove likes also
afterwards.

------
markyc
i manually unfollowed everyone on my list, so now my facebook home page is
empty. i still go on other people's profiles from time to time, but way less
than i used to

this way it feels like i'm more in control of my activity and not getting
flooded with "news" helps a lot for my peace of mind

~~~
xyzzy4
I did this also. You get all the benefits of deactivating your Facebook
account, but without feeling like you lost something.

------
mapleoin
It's weird how this article finds so many things wrong with Facebook, but it
cannot even think of an alternative. Instea it talks about how Facebook can
adapt (and has adapted by every year introducing a revolutionary feature like
"unfollow"), how it's not so bad, how _we_ need to change to adapt to _it_
like it's a new body in the sky.

How about just spend more time in real-life and less time photoshopping and
broadcasting life-in-front-of-a-selfie-stick?

~~~
cactux
> It's weird how this article finds so many things wrong with Facebook, but it
> cannot even think of an alternative.

Why should we think of an alternative? One can "find so many things wrong with
smoking or using drugs", without being requested to "think of an alternative".
Did I miss something?

~~~
mapleoin
I guess I misspoke. I was thinking more of looking beyond/away from Facebook
rather than looking for a Facebook replacement.

------
BenderV
For people who also feel this feeling, I suggest you to try some browser
extensions that will hide the news feed while letting you use the fb
messengers & group function.

I basically turn the notification for my best friends post, etc and delete the
FB app. So I'm always connected and only receive notifications when one of my
best friend posted something.

I admit that it's not the ideal solution but it's the best one so far.

\- [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/news-feed-
eradicat...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/news-feed-eradicator-
for/fjcldmjmjhkklehbacihaiopjklihlgg) \-
[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/kill-news-
feed/hjo...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/kill-news-
feed/hjobfcedfgohjkaieocljfcppjbkglfd) (no inspirational quote but will also
hide group recommendation).

------
jMyles
Micah Daigle pointed out to me, four years ago now, that Facebook forces to
user to view their life as "my day-to-day compared to all my friends'
highlight reels."

It was at that moment that I realize that Facebook leverages the darkest parts
of emotional hurt in order to convert sales.

It took my another year before I quit, but once I did, I felt better almost
immediately and have never gone back.

And I don't feel any less socially connected.

------
dayon
I've been depressed since I quit Facebook. I no longer have access to the
groups I used for countless purposes. Yea, there's alternatives, but I'm
starting to see how many bridges I burned deleting a useful tool.

~~~
Jtsummers
How'd you burn the bridges? You closed one channel of communication. If it was
your only channel to those individuals and groups, then that may have been a
mistake.

I use FB strictly for scheduling and coordinating events with friends, it's
easier and it shows up on everyone's calendar (except the handful that I text
because they don't have FB). But I did this just as well, with a bit more
friction, before by using texts and emails (primarily texts, it proved more
reliable with more people). It takes more effort to maintain relationships
without the passive FB connection, but it's very doable.

EDIT: Leaving what I wrote, but an apology since, on rereading, it's
dismissive of your plight.

But I'll maintain, unless it was your only channel of communication the
bridges aren't burned. And if it was, they still aren't, you can go back. If
folks don't accept you back, then that's on them, not you.

~~~
dayon
For many of the connections I refer to, Facebook was my only way of contacting
them. You're right, I could return. It still makes me think that this implicit
claim that leaving Facebook improves our mood is faulty. Rarely or never do I
see disclaimers about possibly increasing depression by quitting.

~~~
Jtsummers
I think it depends on how people use Facebook more than merely presence or
absence on it.

I barely use it. I have an account for two things: An exercise/health
accountability group I started with friends (so we could post achievements,
and failures, in a private to us spot that doesn't come off as bragging and
doesn't discourage honest discussion of issues); to organize events (movies
out, dinners in, parties, trips, etc.) with friends.

I'm effectively not a Facebook user 99% of the time, and I'm happier for it.
If someone really wants _me_ to know about their accomplishments or pains
they'll let me know, or they're too many degrees away (off Facebook) for my
awareness to matter to either of us.

The depression you're experiencing from quitting is the depression of social
isolation (opinion from two comments, but this was my experience with moving
cross country several times and not having any connections in the new locale,
so maybe projecting a bit too). Explore other social connections in your
physical area if it's possible, or reestablish your Facebook connections if
it's not.

~~~
dayon
You're right, and I expected some of this since I knew I was severing some
connections.

------
JimboOmega
I always thought the depressing aspect of Facebook wasn't the demands or
negative content, but the "positive" content: The feeling that everyone else
is more successful and doing cooler things than me.

------
tonylemesmer
I haven't got the app installed and only check it once or twice a week via
browser.

Its useful for invitations every now and again, but its still a conscious
effort to keep it out of my life for the most part.

------
sjg007
I really want a tool besides a chrome or no script add on to mass edit friends
and friends lists.. I have so many people I want to remove.

------
VOYD
Cult of Celebrity knows no bounds.

------
aburan28
Absolutely, you only see positive things on Facebook and if your not doing
great I have no doubt it negatively affects depression

~~~
morganvachon
I have the opposite issue, especially in the current political climate. I have
people I consider true friends who are on both extremes of the current
election cycle, so right now my news feed is nothing but extremely negative
left vs right bullshit. It's made me stop following people who I genuinely
care about and would otherwise like to keep up with, and it's so depressing
that it's beginning to affect my daily life. The only positive posts I see
anymore are silly memes or the occasional "I accomplished something cool"
status updates.

~~~
explorer666
> current election cycle

In the US or where?

~~~
morganvachon
The US. It's always a circus during presidential election season, but this
year seems to be particularly insane.

------
joonoro
> _no matter how much philanthropy he 's involved in_

Not even that, I had the fortune of glossing over this gem earlier today:

[https://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/12/zuckerberg-has-not-
donated-...](https://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/12/zuckerberg-has-not-donated-
anything-you-gullible-credulous-pinheads/)

EDIT: apparently the site I linked doesn't like linking from HN, sorry folks I
had no idea.

~~~
l1n
That site seems to block hotlinking from HN: here's a mirror
[https://archive.is/jjS21](https://archive.is/jjS21)

~~~
striking
Your link is blocked too. As long as you paste it into a new tab you're fine.
I'm not going to bother looking up the specific tweet he said this in but jwz
has "no time for HN"

~~~
kuschku
Breaking the web in such a way is completely inacceptable.
[http://www.donotlink.com/hkjc](http://www.donotlink.com/hkjc)

~~~
striking
It's his website. By design, the Internet lets you do whatever you think is
best, even if what you think is best is totally misguided.

I actually almost agree, that perhaps HN should create some sort of gateway
that decreases the bandwidth costs of content creators.

~~~
colanderman
I mean, I can walk around the street yelling "penis" at anyone wearing orange.
Doesn't mean I'm not an asshole for doing so.

------
grobbles
Gamification is a demand dropped on users, seemingly forcing self-promotion
and social reciprocity in an endless circle.

And for what? In the end there is absolutely no gain, but many like and
favorite and heart primarily to ensure that people like and favorite and heart
whatever they do. We follow to be followed. We comment to be noticed.

Because the metrics are front and center. I stopped using Flickr when I
couldn't post a simple picture for any random passerby or my own storage
without having the embarrassment of a low view count sitting highlighted on
the page, the site imploring me to evangelize for me.

If you build a site and try to leverage users by forced social metrics to
encourage them to become ambassadors and self promoters...well I'd like to
pretend it will hurt you, but sadly it won't.

