
Period-Tracking Apps Are Monetizing Women’s Extremely Personal Data - montalbano
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-24/how-period-tracking-apps-are-monetizing-women-s-extremely-personal-data
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DoreenMichele
I imagine this is a big deal because women are vulnerable in a way and to a
degree that men aren't when it comes to anything of a sexual nature or having
to do with reproduction.

Among other things: Society is generally okay with men having sex outside of
marriage. It is much less okay with women doing the same. Men are generally
not subjected to criticism for being working fathers. Quite the contrary: they
are criticized if they are unemployed and have children. Women are routinely
expected to choose between career and family.

I have in the past commented on the fact that insurance typically did not
cover female birth control, but often did cover Viagra. The subtext there:
Fertile young women aren't entitled to sex, but men are, even if they are so
old they need help performing. Such observations were typically met with open
hostility and dismissal, not like the observation held any water.

The ACA changed that some. From what I gather, most policies are required to
cover some sort of female birth control, unless it falls under religious
exception iirc. So this is mostly no longer true, but was at one time.

My understanding is the current administration is trying to repeal this and
stop covering female birth control, so such gains cannot be assumed to be
permanent. It's all too easy to reverse them and reinstate historical
"barefoot and pregnant" style gender norms for women.

Edit: For context, I'm American and 53 years old. So I'm talking about
(historical, before the ACA) American insurance practices here.

~~~
burtonator
> I have in the past commented on the fact that insurance typically did not
> cover female birth control, but often did cover Viagra.

Not trying to disagree with you but I think this isn't a fair comparison.

Erectile dysfunction is a medical issue in the sense that you're actually
broken. Birth control is different in that you can (mostly) live your life
without birth control.

I say mostly because there are women that need to be on birth control for
actual medical reasons in that they have complications with PMS and this
mitigates things.

A more fair comparison would be male vs female sterilization or condoms.

If condoms were free for men but not for women then that would be a great
point.

Again. Not saying I disagree with you just that this isn't an apples to
oranges comparison.

~~~
jawns
I agree about the apples to oranges comparison. ED is, as you say, a medical
condition. The "dysfunction" in the name indicates that things aren't working
properly. In contrast, no one has ever been diagnosed with being fertile,
because being fertile is not a dysfunction.

I do want to suggest, however, that a change of language is warranted around
this issue.

You write: "there are women that need to be on birth control for actual
medical reasons in that they have complications with PMS and this mitigates
things."

These women do not need to be on birth control. They need to receive hormone
therapy, which happens to be, in a lot of cases, the same medication used for
birth control.

I know it sounds like a distinction without a difference, but it's actually
quite a meaningful distinction.

I would not say that a newborn girl with chronic pulmonary hypertension needs
to be on erectile dysfunction medication. Rather, I would say that she can be
treated with sildenafil, which happens to also be the active ingredient in
Viagra.

Similarly, a woman might use hormone therapy to avoid menorrhagia, and a side
effect might be that it decreases her ability to become pregnant, and she may
or may not be happy with that side effect.

When you make this language shift -- "birth control" applies to contraception,
which disrupts the body's natural fertility, and "hormone therapy" applies to
treatment of medical conditions and dysfunctions -- it helps resolve some hot-
button issues.

For instance, if a woman works for a religious employer that does not cover
contraception, I would imagine that employer would have no issue with her
receiving appropriate hormone therapy for a medical condition such as
menorrhagia, even if a decrease in fertility is a known side effect.

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tengbretson
Even if this data isn't collected on behalf of a healthcare provider I don't
understand why the collected information wouldn't be considered PHI and
therefore subject to HIPAA's rules.

~~~
tantalor
It is PHI but its not subject to HIPAA because it is collected by users, not
by a hospital (for example).

 _US law governing PHI applies to data collected in the course of providing
and paying for health care. Privacy and security regulations govern how
healthcare professionals, hospitals, health insurers, and other Covered
Entities use and protect the data they collect. It is important to understand
that the source of the data is as relevant as the data itself when determining
if information is PHI under U.S. law._

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_health_information](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_health_information)

This is the same reason why HIPAA does not apply to personal fitness trackers.

 _When consumers are collecting health data for their own use, HIPAA doesn’t
come into play._

[https://healthitsecurity.com/news/how-does-hipaa-apply-to-
we...](https://healthitsecurity.com/news/how-does-hipaa-apply-to-wearable-
health-technology)

~~~
nerdponx
This seems like a loophole in the design of the law. I don't see why a health-
tracking app (or more generally, any service that I entrust with my data)
shouldn't be a Covered Entity.

~~~
tantalor
By that reasoning, if you use Excel for health tracking then Microsoft would
be subject to HIPAA.

~~~
nerdponx
If Microsoft is collecting and storing the contents of the Excel workbook,
then why not?

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jawns
It sounds like the extent of the monetization of this data (for now) is
targeted in-app advertisements.

And the ads sound like they're targeted on relatively tame demographic data,
like a person's age, as opposed to the more private data the app collects
(e.g. how often a woman has sex or where a woman is in her cycle).

And even if that sensitive data were used for targeting, I would imagine it
would be for things like, "Show ads for lubricants if a person is sexually
active" or "Show ads for tampons during the week prior to menstruation." Which
doesn't really strike me as that privacy-invading, given the nature of the
app.

I think the privacy implications get worse if the data is sold to third
parties, or if it is used to make decisions that aren't tied to the data being
tracked. For instance, imagine if insurance companies determined that there is
a difference in risk between people who have sex frequently vs. infrequently
and wanted to use this data to inform their underwriting decisions. That's
where it gets scary.

~~~
danesparza
"doesn't really strike me as that privacy-invading, given the nature of the
app"

"the privacy implications get worse if the data is sold to third parties"

Aren't these two statements in direct conflict with one another?

~~~
x220
It looks like the company itself targets the ads, rather than selling the data
to another company to target the ads. This shouldn't actually matter. Why do
you care if your private information is in the hands of company A or company
B?

~~~
naniwaduni
Often people find it different when one party has the data, and has a decent
track record of not broadcasting it to the world, and when the data is widely
circulated.

I know around here we like to assume that all data is going to suffer a
security breach someday but--

\- In practice, everyone has more than two levels of trust.

\- Someday isn't today.

~~~
x220
>In practice, everyone has more than two levels of trust.

That is true, but that doesn't mean that two levels of trust is not a privacy
concern merely because everyone does it.

>Someday isn't today

I felt appalled after reading this. If you genuinely hold that belief, I hope
your circumstances are merciful towards you.

~~~
naniwaduni
> That is true, but that doesn't mean that two levels of trust is not a
> privacy concern merely because everyone does it.

I feel appalled after reading this. If you genuinely hold that belief, I hope
your circumstances are merciful towards you.

------
wanderr
Planned Parenthood has their own period tracking app called Spot On, which
probably doesn't share your data.

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pettersolberg
The whole big data mining AD madness has to stop. Period.

~~~
barkingcat
this comes from the cult of metrics. If you need to know all the numbers about
every single thing, about every single action taken every day in order to make
decisions, then it naturally results in all the data being collected. And thus
having to find ways to use the data because you already spent all your money
on collecting and storing this information. And if you sell it, you can make
more money!

~~~
username223
"Cult of metrics" \-- I like it. Perhaps "you can't improve what you can't
measure," but it's also true that sometimes "you can't improve what you _can_
measure," or that it's just not worth improving. Sure, you could pitch me a
smart toilet paper dispenser (yes, this is a thing) that measures how many
times it turns, then sends me coupons for toilet paper when I'm close to
running out, but... it's toilet paper. I doubt your margins cover a discount I
would care about, much less your server costs.

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1auralynn
Well, I read this to see horror stories about the one I use (Clue) and it
turns out that it's not actually sharing any data except with academics. So...
great?

~~~
porphyrogene
Why does it take an article in Bloomberg to inform you of that? If you are
concerned about your information being shared by the company to which you are
disclosing it then why not look into the security of your data before handing
it over?

~~~
1auralynn
I'm not overly concerned about the three data points I give them every month.

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ffn
The real problem here is that there the asymmetry in machine learning
capabilities between big companies and everyday consumers. I think what we all
will need in the nearby future is personalized AIs (that we all individually
can "build" and "own" in the same way we currently do our personalized
computers) which will negotiate the currently web against big companies on our
behalf.

~~~
nerdponx
Not to sound like an Apple fanboy/shill, but this is one of the reasons I am
still willing to throw money at Apple.

As hostile as they are to software freedom in general, they know that personal
data privacy is part of the value proposition for the Apple ecosystem. The
Siri and Apple Maps privacy policies explicitly state that data will only be
used to improve Siri and Maps, respectively. Apple CoreML is a big step in
making offline machine learning accessible to app developers. Safari ships
with an adblocker.

------
bobthechef
> “No two cycles are exactly the same, even in the same woman,” warns Anna
> Glasier, a leading contraception researcher at the University of Edinburgh.
> An app “does nothing but rely on people not having intercourse at a certain
> point in the cycle. And we know that doesn’t work very well.”

If the article is about privacy, then it should focus on that. The above
comment seems tendentious like it betrays a prejudice against NFP as if to
spread FUD about it by associating it with loss of privacy. Use a notebook or
an offline app if privacy is an issue (I would).

------
deogeo
Just another example of proprietary software betraying its users.

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SmellyGeekBoy
I find it interesting that this should appear on the front page at the same
time as the other post about the stigma of menstruation in India. The fact
that this data is considered "extremely personal" just goes to show that it's
a subject that's also highly stigmatized here in the west. In TFA they even
compare it to medical history!

~50% of the adult population menstruates. I don't get what the big deal is.

~~~
rebuilder
Well, wanting to predict ovulations probably means the user is trying to
conceive. An unscrupulous employer might want to know that, and try to replace
that employee.

~~~
DoreenMichele
Maybe you've heard of The Rhythm Method? Some people track it to avoid
conception.

Also, some women have health issues involving their reproductive tract, like
PCOS, fibroids or even just PMS. Data can help them better understand and
manage their symptoms.

~~~
ceejayoz
If they're using the rhythm method, their employer is still likely to want to
fire them because of impending pregnancy - it has a 24% annual failure rate
with typical use.

[https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/p...](https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/pdf/contraceptive_methods_508.pdf)

~~~
DoreenMichele
My point is that firing them should be illegal because you can't actually know
the purpose they intend it for. You also aren't supposed to fire women for
trying to get pregnant. You certainly shouldn't fire them for using unreliable
birth control. Nothing is infallible, except outright removing her
reproductive organs. Even if they are using the rhythm method, you don't
actually know that they aren't using it in conjunction with some other form of
protection. It's not uncommon to use two less reliable methods together to
bolster the efficacy.

~~~
ceejayoz
"Not supposed to" and "don't" are vastly different things, nor is an employer
looking to discriminate illegally necessarily going to care if they fire a few
false positives.

You'd just start seeing your performance evaluations come back with "needs
improvement". Little mistakes or violations of policies that were previously
ignored result in write-ups. Six months later, you're laid off with a couple
other folks, with a hole in your income that makes it hard to hire a lawyer on
a long-shot legal suit.

People get fired for being pregnant daily. As long as their boss doesn't do
something abjectly idiotic like sending an email saying "you're fired because
you're trying to get pregnant", there's very little recourse.

~~~
DoreenMichele
Point taken.

------
domainkiller
one of the reasons I built nomie was for my wife to privately track her cycle.

------
motohagiography
People are a poor source of entropy in general. You could probably infer the
same information just from any cyclical device usage. Contact frequency,
accelerometer patterns, Tinder/Uber usage. Sounds like the sort of predictive
analytics Uber could use to micro surge price women.

~~~
gnu8
The data from actual period trackers would be great for building this. Use it
to train a neural network on some nVidia cards and you could dredge up all
kinds of patterns in accelerometer data or Hulu viewing history and generate
plenty of actionable data on women who are potentially pregnant to sell to
advertisers.

Isn’t there anything useful we can do with technology or are we all just
bottom feeding parasites and rent seekers trying to build cash machines?

~~~
motohagiography
What would be useful?

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grillvogel
it amazes me that people continue to be surprised by this.

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djohnston
why is this surprising or wrong? you give the application data, you give them
permissions to use your data, and you don't pay for the application (although
it seems like there are subscription models rolling out). did the author
assume people were just building these things for charity?

~~~
CarriersSuck
Some people do... Open source is a great example.

------
zxcvvcxz
This is very valuable information the apps have. A woman menstruating versus
ovulating are two very different hormonal states, and can at times appear to
manifest as different personalities in the same person.

Thus the advertising potential is huge, very actionable data.

~~~
kempbellt
Not OP, but if you're going to downvote, have the decency to leave a comment
explaining why. Downvoting just because you disagree or don't like what
someone said doesn't promote understanding

Update: Hah. Downvoting me now? Why not contribute to the discussion instead?

Edit: A little less triggering language

~~~
moate
Comments about "the process" are generally unwelcome. It's not uncommon for
posts saying "this is how you should post" get down-voted. Direct appeals to
up/down-vote a post are against site policy.

I'll conceded that down-voting OP might have been less helpful, but down-
voting your comment isn't just standard practice, it's what down-voting was
added for.

~~~
kempbellt
Respectfully, I disagree. Being unwelcome towards comments about "the process"
goes against what the site is about. It is a community forum designed to
promote discussion and understanding.

Downvoting comments you disagree with or simply dislike, without any
explanation, is harmful to the community and discussion in general.

Also, I made no appeal to up or down vote any comment. My appeal is simply to
promote discussion.

~~~
moate
You can disagree about what the site should or shouldn't be. Honestly, not my
place to really care. I'm just trying to help explain why the mob was throwing
tomatoes at you. Do what that what you will, and die on any hill you please.

You also had, your term here, "triggering language" and flame-baiting is
typically frowned upon as well. Calling people "white (sic) nights" isn't
really promoting civil discussion.

I'm tapping out here, since I have nothing else to say on the topic. I have
nothing against you, just some friendly advice from one firebrand to another.

~~~
kempbellt
Thanks for your permission to disagree...

I mentioned what the site _is_. Not what it should be. This is a forum to
promote discussion and increase awareness. If that is no longer the case,
we'll all be better off moving discussion to another forum. As I was left only
to guess why my comment was downvoted, I inserted that guess into an _edit_ to
my comment. I've since removed it since I came to the same realization that it
didn't promote civil discussion.

In honesty, I appreciate your suggestions for how to avoid comments which are
"frowned upon". Truly. However, you are presuming that I care if my comments
are frowned upon. I don't. My aim is to promote discussion and increase
awareness and understanding - even if that means offending a person or two.

Thank you for your feedback, however. It is appreciated.

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ryanmarsh
This reminds me of an old Ogilvy quote on advertising, it goes something like
this:

"You wouldn't tell lies to your own wife. Don't tell them to mine."

