
Kia rejects Li-ion for Pb-carbon in hybrid car - nicholas73
http://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/design/power/kia-rejects-li-ion-pb-carbon-hybrid-car-2014-03/
======
protomyth
The reason from the article: “The development team selected lead-carbon
batteries over lithium-ion equivalents as they require no active cooling, are
more easily recyclable at the end of the vehicle’s life, and can function much
more efficiently in sub-zero temperatures.”

Is this line actually true: "An often-overlooked feature of most Li-ion cells
is that they cannot and must not be charged below 0°C, and have poor output
current below 0°C."

~~~
TD-Linux
Yes, virtually all batteries perform poorly at low temperatures. IIRC, the
Tesla can actually heat its batteries to increase performance.

Most consumer-grade lithium ion batteries have a charging window between
0-45C, totally unacceptable for a car. 0-60C is more common for automotive
batteries, but still isn't that large of a window.

~~~
bri3d
Here's a diagram of the Tesla Model S's heat/cooling system. It's taken from a
leaked picture of the engineering tools built into the infotainment system,
which is a scary concept once you think about it:

[http://i.imgur.com/TOUXlWM.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/TOUXlWM.jpg)

The car needs a substantial amount of both active heating and cooling in order
to enable the batteries to both charge at all below 0C and to charge and
discharge extremely rapidly when attached to a Supercharger or under heavy
acceleration.

------
clumsysmurf
Power Japan Plus also announced a new type of battery which is claimed to be
suitable for cars, charges 20x faster than LiIon, has comparable energy
density, ~ 3000 charge - discharge cycles, and will be produced this year in
the standard 18650 format (but only for special applications like medical &
satellites for now).

I couldn't find any capacity / discharge curves though.

I read about it here: [http://www.gizmag.com/dual-carbon-fast-charging-
battery/3212...](http://www.gizmag.com/dual-carbon-fast-charging-
battery/32121/)

With original source here:
[http://powerjapanplus.com/about/news.html](http://powerjapanplus.com/about/news.html)

~~~
nicholas73
This is a something of an indirect source, because I can't find the primary
source for Axion's PbC cycle capability. But the PbC is far better than Power
Japan Plus's.

"PbC lead/carbon chemistry creates a much longer lifespan (3 to 4 times), much
greater charge acceptance in partial state of charge applications (10 to 20
times more depending on the "state" of the battery)."

[http://www.torquenews.com/119/axion-power-pbc-battery-
techno...](http://www.torquenews.com/119/axion-power-pbc-battery-technology-
proves-extended-capability-dc-naval-yard)

A regular LAB has about has around 2000 cycles. A LAB with carbon additives is
not much better. See slide 16:

[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26257506/ELBC%202012/4_h...](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26257506/ELBC%202012/4_hybrid_electric_vehicles_p1/7%20-%20Norbert%20Maleschitz.pdf)

Thus, Axion's PbC could have 8k cycles of complete charge/discharge, and
orders of magnitude greater for partial discharges (which is how it would
actually be used).

I have read it's over 100k cycles but I need to find the source.

~~~
akira2501
From
[http://www.axionpower.com/Technology](http://www.axionpower.com/Technology):

"Our test protocol requires a complete charge-discharge cycle every 7 hours to
a 100% depth of discharge. During testing, our laboratory prototypes have
withstood more than 2,500 cycles before failure. In comparison, most lead-acid
batteries designed for deep discharge applications can only survive 400 to 600
cycles under these operating conditions."

The interesting part about their batteries isn't the lifespan, it's the
lifespan under 100% depth of discharge. You can easily get around 2k cycles
out of a flooded cell lead-acid battery, but you can only go down to 60%
discharge and you must carefully monitor the battery chemistry to get
prolonged lifespan. Along with it's high current capacity, this would make it
an interesting battery for renewable energy storage more than anything else.

It's too bad they don't have a solid datasheet for their product yet. I'd like
to see their figures for internal resistance, self discharge and performance
over typical operating temperature ranges. Until we get to see this data, it's
hard to say if this will be a profitable product.

~~~
nicholas73
You may be interested in the white paper posted here:
[http://www.axionpower.com/Investor_Relations](http://www.axionpower.com/Investor_Relations)

The last section covers the PbC characteristics.

I would also read the ASME Conference paper, written by Norfolk Southern's
engineers about their electric train utilizing the PbC.

------
nicholas73
I have been following the development of lead-carbon batteries, and invested
in Axion Power (AXPW). The primary advantage of lead-carbon batteries is that
they can have orders of magnitude greater charge/discharge cycles than normal
lead acid batteries. A normal lead acid battery eventually sulfates and will
no longer accept charge - causing you to have to switch your car battery.

What the PbC does is have a carbon electrode on the negative plate, which
prevents most of the sulfation problems. The positive plate experiences much
less.

This is exciting because hybrid vehicles and other power applications demand
many more cycles than traditional ICE auto. Previously this niche was only
available to expensive and explosive Li-ion batteries. Now cheaper and safer
lead-carbon batteries could be used (though they contain less energy).

Axion Power is a development stage company that holds the patent for a pure
negative electrode PbC. Other competitor batteries pale by an order of
magnitude to the number of cycles it can take.

It currently has the train company Norfolk Southern developing an all-electric
train using Axion's batteries.

[http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/26/new-life-green-weenie-
el...](http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/26/new-life-green-weenie-electric-
locomotive/)

Axion also has auto companies, energy storage companies, and trucking
companies developing apps using the PbC.

[http://www.marketwatch.com/story/axion-power-announces-
order...](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/axion-power-announces-order-for-
four-powercube-energy-storage-
systems-2014-05-14-10183230?reflink=MW_news_stmp)
[http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/129019/Locomotive_Tech...](http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/129019/Locomotive_Technology_to_Power_Class_8_Heavy_Trucks)

The reason the stock price is at 16 cents right now is because Axion has spent
a decade developing the technology and is only beginning to see revenue. It
has to raise money to continue operations. But the time is close.

A risky but potential very rewarding investment. Each potential market for
their battery number in the billions.

~~~
carbocation
Just curious, does this post fall afoul of SEC guidelines re: microcap stocks,
or is it OK because all of the information is technically public? Not trying
to be critical here (though based on the form of my question, I suppose I am),
just curious.

~~~
goodcanadian
I am not an expert, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I think this
falls into a bit of a gray area. One comment on a technical forum in response
to an article where Axion Power was explicitly mentioned is probably OK. If
the GP had a pattern of posting comments like this in many places,
particularly investment forums, and under different usernames, it would be
illegal market manipulation. Moreso, if that person was found to have bought,
posted the comments, and then sold shortly after the market had gone up.

------
spiritplumber
My (not very scientific) findings while working on nautical equipment for
stuff like barges and buoys are that the more weight-efficient a battery is,
the less environmentally tough it is. We use SLA batteries wherever we can
simply because they are likely to last for years where they're deployed.

------
JoeAltmaier
Decreases CO2 by 15%? Almost too little to matter. Other than as a marketing
ploy.

~~~
mikeash
15% better fuel economy is certainly noticeable even if it's not huge. Lots of
car buyers prioritize fuel economy these days. Not every improvement has to be
an order of magnitude.

~~~
tarre
Moreover in many countries the taxes are related to CO2 emissions, which will
result in savings as well.

~~~
iwwr
As electric cars become more popular, expect taxes on them to go up as well.
Germany recently scrapped fuel tax breaks for biofuel. In the long run, it's
unlikely for tax breaks to be maintained on popular items of consumption.

~~~
mikeash
Rational tax policy would levy taxes in proportion to the externalities
produced by any given activity. Cars which emit air pollution generally
produce more external costs than those which don't, so it would be reasonable
to expect taxes on them to remain higher forever.

