
Toronto’s Chinese bottle ladies - devy
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/the-secret-lives-of-torontos-chinese-bottleladies/article33425364/
======
DKnoll
I'm sure this is a common phenomena anywhere with bottle deposits, but
everywhere I've lived in the GTA has had at least one of these people.

They can be polarizing. Some hate them, some are indifferent, others
appreciate them. To the city they're a nuisance, because they take recycling
money out of the pocket of the municipality. To some residents they're
considered a threat or an annoyance, afraid of theft or annoyed by noise in
the middle of the night.

Personally, I appreciate these people. I will collect my bottles and leave
them out on a discarded table that sits in an alley on the route of the bottle
collecter currently informally serving my neighbourhood. I live in a downtown
area known as a party spot, so he does reduce a fair amount of litter by
collecting the empties discarded just about everywhere.

It's reassuring that somebody sober is out on the streets and alleys at night.
If somebody passes out or is otherwise in trouble, he may be the only person
that would discover them.

~~~
gumby
The nuisance factor for me when I lived in Boston (25 years ago; hopefully
recycling has improved since then) was that homeless people would tear open
the rubbish bags looking for containers that could be turned in for cash. If
even a few people were lazy and threw deposit containers in the trash, the
rest of us paid the price.

~~~
lovich
Where I've lived in boston none of the bottle collectors would do that for
fear of getting the cops called. They did dig through the recycling bins, but
everything would be back on the bin by the time they were done

~~~
lostlogin
And if it's anything like where I am, half the street is wide awake from the
noise.

~~~
lovich
No actually, they kept to daylight hours and we're generally friendly and open
to conversation. I had more issues from the town's construction. They wouldn't
necessarily start construction at 6 am but they would certainly show up to the
site and start yelling back and forth while noisily getting their equipment
out of their cars

------
bigtones
There are quite a few of these ladies in San Francisco too. They have enormous
bags filled bottles and cans, which can sometimes stink with the remnants of
old beer or soda. They ride public transport between locations with their huge
bags taking up a seat next to them. Sometimes the bus driver or passengers
object but mostly people just leave them alone.

They represent a testament to hard work, even in later life, that few cultures
manage to exemplify quite like the Chinese seem to do.

~~~
zdean
"They represent a testament to hard work, even in later life, that few
cultures manage to exemplify quite like the Chinese seem to do."

Really? I can't think of a culture/society where people that need to work hard
don't do so...even into old age. Even as migrants to America, the first and
sometimes second generation bring a strong work ethic with them. I'm sure the
Chinese are very hard working...but they're hardly an exception if you look
around the world.

~~~
swuecho
The Chinese who are in their 50+ probably is the most hard working people,
even in China. If you check history, when they are young, china is very poor.
A lot of them may have a memory of starvation.

You are right, the Chinese in the young generation are not as hard working
now. (Maybe I am geting old)

------
jperras
> She lives close by, in a house near the big Cadbury chocolate factory.

I used to live right near there; the Cadbury factory is on Gladstone just
north of Dundas street. If she owns that house with her husband, it's probably
worth just a bit north of a CAD $1 million. Just the rent on a semi-decent
house in that neighbourhood would be at least $2,500/month, if not $3,000.

------
ChuckMcM
We have had some interesting run-ins with scrap collectors. In part because
Sunnyvale (or at least their garbage contractor) uses the proceeds from the
the sale of recyclables to offset costs of collection. Thus when someone raids
the recycle bin for the cans and bottles, it takes money away from the garbage
company that was nominally discounting garbage fees based on expected returns.
The city council made an ordinance to allow the police to stop people from
doing that.

When I hired the janitorial company at the office I included in the contract
that they could keep any proceeds they collected from extracting recyclables
in the office trash. For me the benefit was that it didn't matter which can
you threw out recyclables in, the janitorial staff would sort them out and
recycle them. It gave them a bit more money in their pocket, and it made it
easier on folks trying to figure out which can to use for what.

~~~
beachstartup
they would have done that anyways. they also take discarded cardboard boxes
and other re-usables.

------
automatwon
I live in a microstudio condo building in SoMA, San Francisco. Rent is ~$2000.
It's always surreal to see this old lady with an asian "carrying pole" in the
elevator. There's no rent control here or government sponsored housing of
sorts. Either the lady makes a lot of money doing this (doubtful), or some
generous person is letting her live for free (these are ~100 square feet
microstudios, barely space to roommate), or she's doing this as a hobby, or I
just lack imagination. (For context, we're 10 feet away from a Whole Foods,
and Uber's self driving garage).

~~~
user837387
She is probably doing it because she likes the work. She feels good earning a
bit of money even if she doesn't really need it. The sense of fulfillment is
probably worth a lot more than the actual monetary value. Lots of us derive
happiness from work or from feeling useful.

I know at least one old timer (early eighties) that gets really happy when
heading over to exchange his bag of aluminum cans. He lives in his daughters
home and he doesn't really need money. My thinking is that it makes him happy
to earn a bit of money completely on his own, at his age.

~~~
hackermailman
Indeed they live with family and the can money go to gambling at all those
Chinese seniors clubs. A woman who used to clean out the cans here now hires
other women to do it and runs a little recycling empire that ends up on the
Mahjong table.

There's also a culture of no waste from that generation my friend's
grandmother was more than wealthy but refused to eat with plates snacking with
newspaper plates she made and grew a large crop of food in their front yard
selling it to corner stores every year. She also would dig out clothing out of
trash bins, wash and slice up the fabric to sew different clothes she also
sold but didn't need to being fairly wealthy.

------
albertgao
In China, we call these people as "the one who pick garbage" or "king of the
garbage", the latter one comes from a TV show in 80s. None of these terms are
meant to be an insult, just plain description for what they do, but they are.
In China, since the low developed well-being system, the elder ones do it
since it is the only way they can earn some income to feed themselves. And
yes, some of them have lots of deposits, ye, but that comes from saving from
low quality life. The Chinese always chase for something pragmatic, which in
China, which they can earn some money from. In this news, I do believe some of
them may do it since a boring life. But if there is no economy benefit, I
don't believe they will do this kind of bottle collecting thing. And ye, it is
not because they love money, just a self-protection habit from their
motherland.

------
Waterluvian
In Ontario (maybe Canada, maybe many countries?) if you recycle a beer bottle,
it gets melted down and re purposed. If you return a beer bottle to the beer
store, it gets cleaned and refilled, which I expect is considerably more
efficient.

Not dismissing the negative issues related to these people, there seems to be
potential for them to be doing a considerable service for our communities.

------
LiweiZ
In case you are not familiar with China, there are many such old ladies in
China. Most of them in big cities are trying to dressed relatively clean and
decent. There are some old ladies eat the remained food left on tables in
student restaurants in universities.

------
ianpenney
Returning bottles for a deposit in Toronto is incredibly inconvenient.

Yet, the same phenomenon seems to exist in Berlin, where public drinking is
tolerated if not encouraged and bottles can be returned to supermarkets.

In general, I wouldn't direct any condemnation upon individuals for
scavenging... instead it's worth scrutinizing systems that encourage this
waste.

"Keep America Beautiful" was founded by Philip Morris, Anheuser-Busch,
PepsiCo, and Coca-Cola...

------
mef
Perhaps "June For" has something to do with 6/4?

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989)

~~~
kevcwei
Don't put too much thought in that. "June" could simply be a chinese name
"Jun". The lady knows few words of english, I doubt "June" is on that list.

------
keithpeter
_" Scrounging through other people’s trash for useable stuff is common in many
countries, a spontaneous form of recycling that long predates blue bins."_

UK: Birmingham. No deposit on bottles here but some recycling companies will
pay very small amounts for aluminium drink cans. We have a bit of a hierarchy
going on

Scavengers: people going through wheelie bins and making a mess looking for
cans &c. Often homeless.

Collectors: cans and metal objects. I often see a couple out with prams early
in the morning collecting stuff. Not obviously homeless.

Rag and bone men: flat lorries going around collecting old fridges and washing
machines and other kinds of stuff, usually metal

In Digbeth there is a day centre and residential block for older Chinese
people. Always a hot meal at lunchtime, looks popular. Perhaps one of the
Churches should start a day centre and organise voluntary activities?

------
mabbo
Interesting thought- if the province finally raises bottle deposits to match
inflation, very few people would leave bottles to be collected.

The fact that bottle ladies exist in Ontario demonstrates that the deposit
value is too low to achieve its intended goal- everyone cleaning up their own
empties.

~~~
rwallace
The intended goal is that the empty bottles be returned, and that goal is
being achieved. It doesn't matter whether it gets done by the people who used
the bottles or by someone else.

------
wayne
A friend wrote an article about a NYC millennial who put herself through
college collecting cans: [http://bit.ly/2aj0IG7](http://bit.ly/2aj0IG7)

------
rossrubacon
Bylaw are nitpicking. i have personally helped fill my truck with cans Many
many times!. you could pile them as high as you like tie it down and go to
collect at a recycling facility that pays the most in my local area of the GTA
and you will be only getting $60-80. I would say it would take one guy a month
to collect. They should stop hiring more Bylaw to pick on people. You fire one
bylaw officer you would save there 40-50k a year that would more then make up
for the difference it makes. Bylaw in my opinion have a job and I think too
many people complain rather then go outside and actually (shocker) talk to
there neighbor and say hey this bothers me. It creates a war of someone called
bylaw on you and it spreads so you call bylaw on all your neighbors it creates
bad blood they hire more bylaw eventually there are so many of these lawn
police that when everyone is compliant they need to justify there job.

Take my cans and metal and old electronics . My city charges me far to much to
pickup trash. Go look at what you receive for your ever rising taxs it will
possibly alarm you when you put a cost to it all.

I want less government I want government to fear me not the othere way around.

------
angmarsbane
Why doesn't the city hire them to do what they're already doing?

It increases recycling rates and reduces litter providing a public service.

------
whyagaindavid
I have seen the same in Berlin, especially, on Friday evenings. Plenty of old
or unemployed people in the city trains, UBahn. The deposits for a glass
bottle is 10 euro cent and for PET is about 25 cent, IIRC.

------
dxcqcv
so many people like her live in China

~~~
coconutoperator
I am not sure there are 'so many' especially in big cities, but quite a few
comparing to the developed world.

