
China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment - baylearn
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53650246
======
bArray
As fellow humans, there is no way to look at this situation and find something
positive. The actions of the CCP need to be condemned. If you disagree with
this point, we are fundamentally at odds.

To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government)
which are at fault, not the people. I think we should always make it very
clear that it's not the Chinese people we take issue with and we are not
condemning people based on race.

As for actions taken against China and masquerading behind human-rights to
justify them, I think it's okay to temporary align ourselves with those whose
actions align with our ideology, even if the motivation is different. Life is
about compromise and we're going to find very few allies if we will only work
with people perfectly aligned with our own motivations.

~~~
DarthGhandi
> To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP
> (government) which are at fault, not the people

What would you say if the people widely supported it? Do you have evidence
otherwise?

Most mainlanders don't seem to care at all, that's pretty common knowledge and
not some fear of speaking out issue. There's plenty of online forums where
they anonymously express themselves and widely mock and criticise the
government yet you won't find many being about Xinjiang province other than
what the West is reporting on it.

Have you spent much time on the Chinese internet?

So to go back to my question, if it's actually the people who support this, do
you consider them the enemy too?

[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-30/why-many-in-china-
sup...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-30/why-many-in-china-support-
beijings-xinjiang-and-hongkong-policy/11749148)

~~~
saeranv
This isn't unique to Chinese mainlanders. If you look at other countries: U.S,
Sri Lanka, Israel, Brazil, France etc., you're going to find a significant
portion of the population that seems to support far-right populism based on
ethnic nationalism.

Look at Trump, who is currently attempting to push an anti-China narrative in
the US, but still gave Xi Jinping the green light to build camps for the
Uighurs, and said it was "exactly the right thing to do." [1]

Should we judge them? Are they our enemy? I don't know. But this seems to be a
systematic bias that pervades humanity in general.

[1] [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-
canada-53138833](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53138833)

~~~
lenkite
Please do note that is a John Bolton claim with no independent confirmation
and denied by Trump. And no single nation - not even the US - has any power to
give a "green" or "red" light to China currently.

The only way any pressure would work is with a league of nations applying
sanctions.

------
aaomidi
A recommended watch:
[https://youtu.be/WmId2ZP3h0c](https://youtu.be/WmId2ZP3h0c)

This is what China wants you to see. Now think about what they don't watch you
to see.

~~~
rvz
This is what happens when you show this evidence to a Chinese Ambassador and
diplomat. [0]

[0]
[https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1284784810200838145](https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1284784810200838145)

~~~
throwaway9990
Those are prisoners.

~~~
karxxm
If those are "only" prisoners, then it should be okay to let foreign
inspectors in and talk to the "prisoners", shouldn't it?

~~~
iamjordanlittle
American prisons don't allow the UN in for inspections. (Maybe because the US
was founded on slavery and never really got away from it so now relies on 2.2
million enslaved black people doing forced labor as a punishment for
nonviolent drug crimes or inability to pay fines).

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-usa-torture-
idU...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-usa-torture-
idUSKCN0WA2B8)

[https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/05/1063292](https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/05/1063292)

[https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-the-us-wont-let-the-un-
loo...](https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-the-us-wont-let-the-un-look-inside-
its-prisons)

[https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2015/07/25/809496/united-...](https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2015/07/25/809496/united-
nations-urges-washington-to-allow-it-to-inspect-us-prisons)

~~~
fermienrico
What’s this whole conversation have to do with America?

------
throwaway_4228
> His uncle ... believes the video could galvanise public opinion in the same
> way that footage of the police treatment of George Floyd became a powerful
> symbol of racial discrimination in the US.

The worrying thing is, protests like those for George Floyd won't be possible
to happen within China, and even if they happen overseas, most people inside
China won't even be aware of them.

With the information control in place, long lasting suppression against
minorities is one of the most terrifying things that can happen.

~~~
ghthor
Also turns out that the uncut bodycam footage leaked yesterday isnt damming
evidence of racial anything in the case of George Floyd. The body footage
shows a standard arrest gone bad because the suspect was currently overdosing
on fentanyl and having a panic attack.

Hopefully some people start to feel a little bit embarrassed over there
reactions and support of violent riots.

------
armini
If you're interested in this topic, I strongly suggest you all read The China
Crisis By: James R. Gorrie It provides amazing insight into what's happening
in the region & what we can expect to see over the coming years.

~~~
dgellow
Could you share some of those insights?

------
AniseAbyss
The CCP has two things that keeps them afloat: Chinese nationalism (and lets
admit that the US really is out to get them at this point) and the economy.

In 20 years China may very well be completely technologically independent
rendering economic sanctions impotent and foreigners aren't going to be able
to change any Chinese minds. Change will have to come from within the CCP, it
always amused me that those HK protesters were talking more to the foreign
press than trying to infiltrate the mainland bureaucracy.

~~~
bArray
> Change will have to come from within the CCP

And I'm guessing if the West and Russia had waited, the Nazis would have
stopped putting people in concentration camps too? The CCP is exactly the same
party that still covers up the 1989 Tienanmen Square Massacre - they can't
even admit their previous failings.

> it always amused me that those HK protesters were talking

> more to the foreign press than trying to infiltrate the

> mainland bureaucracy.

It's hard to find any amusement in the HK situation at all.

I am not aware of any scenario where the Communist dictatorship has listened
to reason or has allowed the infiltration of it's mainland media. Their entire
dictatorship is based on narrative - whilst it's positive, they stay in power
over the people and army. Any deviation throws their rule into question, which
is why they crush it at any cost.

Edit: Grammar

~~~
throwr432345
> ...the Nazis would have stopped putting people in concentration camps too?

It’s possible.

After the Trail of Tears, I don’t think anyone would have believed the US
would fight a Civil War and change so much.

Give China a hundred years and who knows what will happen.

Taiwan was a dictatorship until the late 90s. All China needs is that one
leader to put things in motion.

------
Arbalest
How does one compile this and other evidence to present to expatriate
Mainlanders? Is it even worth it?

~~~
lma21
Why do we think expats would be interested in this? What's the point anyway?

Shouldn't we use this evidence instead to wake people up on the impacts of
consumerism?

Didn't _we_ allow China to become what it is today due to how _we_ buy things
(all things are made in China today?) and how companies are constantly seeking
to reduce costs and in some cases irresponsibly? What have we said to those
companies?

Disclaimer: I'm from Europe.

~~~
Shivetya
This is the issue, it is not a matter of convincing the Chinese people their
government is a problem it is a matter of convincing politicians in the
Western world that China is truly a problem and pressuring corporations at
stock holder meetings the same.

Both need to be told the same thing, doing business in China is not
acceptable. Corporations can be forced to change course by stock holders and
national or state governments, governments can only be changed by pressure on
the political parties in each.

* I own both Tesla and Apple products, my statement on not buying an Apple product made in China needs to be expanded. I will not buy an Apple product or another Tesla until both leave China or the Chinese government changes direction; which I believe will only get worse if the believe the US government slides in weakness or non interventionist form

------
beenBoutIT
That loudspeaker broadcasting fun "facts" is an interesting way to reeducate
captives. IIRC, the consensus among most Western experts is that this type of
brainwashing isn't effective.

~~~
dragonwriter
Perhaps, just a thought, that is because it's not intended for brainwashing as
that term is usually used, but simple behavior modification. The difference
being that it's not about inducing belief in the content of propaganda, but
constantly underlining what beliefs it is acceptable to _demonstrate outward
compliance with_ , while other avenues demonstrate the cost of non-compliance.

The brainwashing doesn't happen to the people that are directly subject to it,
but to the ones raised in an environment surrounded by people who, if they
aren't true believers but are still around to be seen as models, have been
cowed into behavioral conformance.

~~~
raxxorrax
So it is just harmless nudging?

~~~
dragonwriter
I don't know where you got “harmless nudging” from that description of it as
part of a system of violent coercion of the immediate subjects that is long-
game brainwashing directed beyond them, but, no.

------
cycomanic
I've been wondering how I could bring this up with the mainland Chinese I
know. It's particularly difficult, because for some of them I'm in a
supervisory/managerial role, but I don't want to put pressure on them, which
would raise all sort of other ethical dilemmas and would likely not be
effective. Anyone else can share experiences?

~~~
fiblye
There are two outcomes: 1: They really will not know what you're talking about
and think you're crazy and just hate Chinese people (this is common). 2: They
will somewhat know what you're talking about, and have a massive list of bad
things your country has done/is still doing, and you won't be happy (this is
also common, but slightly less common)

If you were good friends, you can mention this and drop it and try to move on.
If you're doing this at work, it won't end well for anyone involved, and it'll
be doubly bad if you're in an authority position.

~~~
calf
Note that the outcomes you describe are only bad at preserving the status quo
at that workplace.

~~~
fiblye
The outcomes will also give them a heightened sense of nationalism and feed
into the idea that the West is just out to get China and Chinese people, which
the media plays up quite a bit.

As an American, sitting down next to a European on vacation for more than a
few minutes is never fun. Once they inevitably ask "Where are you from?", they
follow it up with a lecture on American politics before I can even finish my
sentence. It's tedious and it's nothing new.

It's probably way more frustrating for people having to listen to their _boss_
lecture them at work about how screwed up a country they've never been to but
you've lived your whole life in is. You're not in a position to just politely
say "bye" and never see them ever again without any consequence. You certainly
can't speak up against them because they're in a position of authority.

~~~
dumb1224
That's my worry too. A lot of us are very defensive now even to be reasonable.
However it is hard to buy these videos if you were born and raised in China,
simply because you understand the culture around it. For example there are a
lot of Vloggers in Xinjiang
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRXnF42z1oM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRXnF42z1oM)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3VGz4HFs_A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3VGz4HFs_A)

If you understand the language and culture the locals talk a similar way to
the responses from the BBC video. And in the Vice video the locals even spoke
for the secret journalists.

Also for mainland china everyone refers people from any ethnic background from
Xinjiang a 'Xinjianger' not a singled out 维族人. I'm sure there are a lot of
injustice but ethnic minorities are known to entitle a few 'privileges' such
as carrying knives and not subject to one-child policy. Hence the cause of the
inevitable unfair treatment and conflict (to be honest many policies are not
up to modern liberal views). I'm not defending ccp ever, but I'm also shocked
people knew very little about everything else.

~~~
tasogare
I think this is an important point. Even if GP "open the eyes" of coworkers on
the matter, there is absolutely no guarantee that they will side with the
Western point of view. For a variety of reasons they might approve the
government action, which will cause additional tension to an already rude
situation, as explained by other posters.

------
throwaway_pdp09
There's more than enough evidence now with or without this so I'll put it
simply.

Those who defend this abuse of an ethnic group are as complicit as the nazis
of last century.

------
saeranv
It's atrocious what the CCP under Xi is doing. And it's dismaying that other
quasi-authoritarian countries are taking note. From Basil Rajapaksa (part of
the political family in Sri Lanka responsible for various war crimes during
the civil war):

“I want our party to be a party like the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and how
they act... We have learned from many political parties in the world. The best
two are the BJP and CCP.” From [http://www.newswire.lk/2020/07/30/basil-wants-
slpp-to-become...](http://www.newswire.lk/2020/07/30/basil-wants-slpp-to-
become-like-chinas-ccp-or-indias-bjp/).

------
tigerlily
My Kazakh office mate is so angry over this. He swears there is going to be
jihad.

~~~
DarthGhandi
That was the problem in the beginning though, waging a separatist war. It's
why all this started when a lot of Uyghurs came back from Syria after fighting
for ISIS.

Do you think more of those bombing campaigns, taking hostages at police
stations and throwing hand grenades out of cars into busy market bazaars will
improve the situation for the people of Xinjiang?

~~~
kome
are you assuming they should try to find independence with democratic means...
in autocratic china?

~~~
DarthGhandi
I'm saying it's not a good idea. Just like the Rohyingyas who the West cheered
on and waxed lyrically about their treatment for years, when push comes to
shove no one did a thing to either take in the refugees or pressure the tiny
weak impoverished government to stop committing genocide against them and
their rebellion. If the West won't stand up to Burma, what do you truly think
they're going to do against nuclear armed China, the second largest economy on
Earth?

It's all well and good to have ideals, but don't pretend they apply in the
real world of politics.

Feel free to say your country will take in a hundred thousand Uyghurs to free
them, we all know it won't happen. The UK somehow has space for a million
people from HK but there's no way on Earth they'd take 1% of that from
Xinjiang province.

Words are cheap. Just ask the Rohingyas how they are fairing in 2020.

------
auganov
And don't forget what's happening to Falun Gong practitioners in China [0][1].
Although I can't be sure, from observation it seems to me like this
information is still more heavily embargoed both in China and beyond. The
persecution of Uighurs is getting China a lot of heat internationally but
domestically it doesn't seem to be as disruptive.

Demonizing Uighurs has been much easier given their different ethnicity,
religion and effective confinement to a given region. It's easy for people to
assume this will never affect them. With Falun Gong you're dealing with
millions of members of the mainstream Chinese society who have been subject to
all this and worse.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China)

[1] "Hard to Believe - Full Documentary - Now free to watch during coronavirus
lockdown"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR5o43zZSiA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR5o43zZSiA)

~~~
throwr432345
Don’t forget that the Falun Gong newspaper, The Epoch Times, was banned from
Facebook due to publishing conspiracy theories,

[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/23/technology/facebook-
ads-e...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/23/technology/facebook-ads-epoch-
times.html)

------
edbob
This is disgusting. Even in Ad Seg in a Texas prison, with the most violent
schizophrenic inmates, you can't be handcuffed to a bed.

To treat people like this based on their ethnicity is beyond the pale.

~~~
9999px
…that doesn't mean they don't. Pregnant women are routinely handcuffed while
giving birth. If you want to see the peak in inhumane treatment of prisoners,
go to any American prison south of the Mason–Dixon. Forced feeding, solitary
confinement, executions, no foreign investigations (the US won't let the UN
inspect American prisons), single-ingredient dietary plans as punishment –
I've seen a lot of it working with a local prison abolitionist group for the
last few years.

[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/24/shackled-
pre...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/24/shackled-pregnant-
women-prisoners-birth)

[https://www.pix11.com/news/coronavirus/rikers-inmate-with-
co...](https://www.pix11.com/news/coronavirus/rikers-inmate-with-
covid-19-dies-while-handcuffed-to-a-bed)

[https://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-rights/solitary-
confinem...](https://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-rights/solitary-
confinement/working-prison-i-witnessed-inhumane-conditions-solitary)

[https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/force-feeding-
pris...](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/force-feeding-prison-
supermax-torture/)

------
cycomanic
John Oliver did an excellent piece on the situation of the uighur last week
you can watch it here:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8)

I have to say he has really developed his show into an excellent mix of
education and entertainment. I used to not like him very much (didn't like his
type of humor), but I learn something every time I watch one of his shows,
even if it covers a topic I'm already quite familiar with.

~~~
Chris2048
I agree, used to be cheap digs / preaching to the choir style humour; Has
become more informative.

------
mieses
The comparison of the situations of the Uighurs and the African Americans is
straight out of the CCP propaganda playbook. The Soviet Union used to run
stories about racism in the US.

------
boomboomsubban
As an American, as terrible as the Chinese actions against the Uighurs in
Xinjiang are I still feel we should prioritize ending our nearly twenty year
long war in neighboring Afghanistan.

We've created millions of refugees, caused over a hundred thousand people to
die, and committed numerous human rights violations. Yet the press coverage it
gets mostly centers around how we dropped the "mother of all bombs" on them or
how disgusting it is to hold peace talks with the Taliban in September.

And for all the calls of "whataboutism" this is likely to raise, if we are
unable to fix our own problems our attempts to fix China's are unlikely to
benefit anyone.

~~~
coliveira
You're completely right, but it's not going to stop the campaign against
China, because human rights are not the issue. If it was, people would be out
in the streets protesting all day against business done with Saudi Arabia. And
people would also protest daily against the human rights violations
perpetrated by the US around the world (the UN hasn't lift a finger about that
either). The whole goal of the campaign is to raise popular support for a
commercial campaign and maybe even a war against China.

~~~
abc-xyz
Plenty of people are protesting against business with Saudi Arabia. The reason
you see so much anti-China sentiment is likely a result of China having
managed to become a part of the lives of people in western countries.

Oil states play a huge role in the lives of people who follow football due to
UAE/Qatar having ownership of large clubs, similarly, there have been a lot of
protests with regard to the 2022 FIFA World Cup which will take place in
Qatar.

Another example is the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi.

~~~
boomboomsubban
That you can make this post without mentioning the continued US/Saudi war on
Yemen largely proves their point. People care when oil states are involved in
a sport they follow or a US residents life. What is happening to millions of
people in Yemen doesn't register.

~~~
abc-xyz
I would say it proves my point. Most people couldn’t care less about what
happens outside their borders unless the country responsible also do things
that impact their life. No on gives a damn when North Korea starve its
citizens to death, subject them to hard labor and execute them left and right.
But the western world care a lot when they imprison/torture a western citizen.

Similarly, no one cares about China kidnaping girls from neighboring countries
to force them into marriage/prostitution in China. But people care a lot when
China force gaming companies to censor their games and ban western citizens
playing western games in a western country because they write “Free Hong Kong”
in the chat.

~~~
boomboomsubban
I will remind you that this thread is about what is happening with the Chinese
Uighurs, a group that has no impact on Western lives.

>Most people couldn’t care less about what happens outside their borders
unless the country responsible also do things that impact their life

The US is the country responsible here. US military commanders have said that
the war in Yemen would end tomorrow without US assistance, and the US declared
war on Afghanistan.

~~~
abc-xyz
It does because these Uyghurs are subjected to hard labor where they’re
producing goods for Nike, Gap, H&M, Amazon, Puma, etc. It’s a lot harder to
look past these things when you know they’re happening (similarly to how it’s
hard for football fans to look past the slave labor used for the World Cup in
Qatar). The fact that their treatment feels equivalent to the holocaust makes
it even worse.

It also adds great frustration/anger when western companies fight for human
rights in USA while they stay silent on China’s human rights issues (and even
censor western citizens voicing support for them).

~~~
boomboomsubban
> does because these Uyghurs are subjected to hard labor where they’re
> producing goods for Nike, Gap, H&M, Amazon, Puma, etc.

I have not heard these allegations of slave labor surrounding these internment
camps. Maybe you're thinking of US prisons.

>The fact that their treatment feels equivalent to the holocaust makes it even
worse

I'm still not defending China here, but their actions seem limited to cultural
genocide not actual genocide. The US treatment of Muslims in Yemen is far
worse.

------
mkbkn
Downvote me for this - If you're using China-made products, you're responsible
for the bugger balls of CCP, unethical/illegal selling of human organs and
what not.

They are no different from a radical terrorist organization.

~~~
lostlogin
> If you're using China-made products, you're responsible

What sort of limits do you have to this statement? You're posting this on a
forum. Have you checked the country of origin of the servers and components
used by the telecoms for their equipment between you and those servers?

~~~
cycomanic
That's a straw man though. Nobody said you need to be perfect, however there
are enough products where we know exactly where they made and still ignore the
human rights violations, maybe that's a good start.

~~~
aaomidi
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.

Stop blaming individuals and expect more from your leadership.

