
Chinese tech firms are throwing out applicants over the age of 30 - monsieurpng
https://www.technologyreview.com/the-download/611067/chinese-tech-firms-are-throwing-out-applicants-over-the-age-of-30/
======
dang
This article is both shallow and basically blogspam of
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-05-02/china-
s-t...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-05-02/china-s-tech-
industry-wants-youth-not-experience).

Note that the site guidelines include: " _Please submit the original source.
If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter._ "

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

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jerf
Well, as ways to ensure that China never really becomes competitive
technically go, this seems to be one of the faster ones.

I mean, the idea that people get _better_ with _experience_... ludicrous!
Beyond ludicrous! Unpatriotic!

Not entirely sure I buy it as a industry-wide phenomenon, though. I'd guess
this is a particular subset of the industry or something, just as it is in the
West.

~~~
Buttons840
There is some karma here at least, as those 20 year olds who establish a
culture of age discrimination will themselves become old and be discriminated
against.

~~~
jerf
My go-to argument against age discrimination on those occasions when I see a
~20-25-year-old in my area spout the idea that the old fogies just can't keep
up with those hot young whippersnappers is to ask them point blank, "do you
honestly see yourself not getting any better and learning anything in the next
ten or twenty years? You seriously believe that you are, right now, as good as
you will ever be?" It occurs to me as I write this out right now that I should
also add "If so, please put me in contact with your manager as I'm sure they
will be overjoyed to hear that you do not ever expect to deserve a raise, and,
indeed, expect to be paid progressively less over the next few years as your
skills rot away and you become steadily less effective."

It doesn't help that as near as I can tell, the undergraduate computer science
education has barely changed in the 20-25 years since I took it. This is
generally a good thing, not a criticism; it _shouldn 't_ be chasing every
fresh hot trend, that's not its job. But if the fresh young whippersnappers
are supposed to be picking up the hot skillz that will put this 20+-year
veteran to shame, it's not clear to me exactly _where_ they are supposed to be
getting these hot skillz from. It certainly isn't from their undergraduate
education.

------
Bukhmanizer
Why are the standards of evidence so much lower for trends in Chinese and
Japanese culture?

First of all, the title of the article isn’t supported by the content.

Secondly, the evidence of the title appears to be a single unnamed recruiter.

Third, of course a vast majority of people in tech in China are going to be
young. Do people not remember the economic situation of China 20-30 years ago?

------
jandrewrogers
What could possibly go wrong when your hiring processes preclude most people
with in-depth real-world experience? Learning lessons the hard way is
expensive.

~~~
cheez
People who think this way are missing the forest for the trees.

The trees: fire anyone above 30.

The forest: Many development processes that required experience are being
outsourced to companies like Amazon, Google, via their cloud computing
platforms.

It is now possible to read some docs, follow some tuts and have a service that
scales. If the inside is ugly, no one cares. That's the forest.

The problem is that this is how management thinks all over the world because
it is short-term profitable.

Find another industry, seriously.

~~~
jimbokun
"If the inside is ugly, no one cares."

Yeah, so now your inexperienced developer just deployed something that takes
10 or 100x more resources than it should, and now you have a massive AWS or
GCP bill to pay.

(Which brings up an interesting question, at what point does your cloud
computing bill reach a point where it's worth it to pay the slight premium for
a more senior engineer to come in and clean up the obvious inefficiencies?)

"The problem is that this is how management thinks all over the world because
it is short-term profitable."

Not really, as so many early stage software companies are not interested in
being profitable, short-term or otherwise. So cost management and profits are
irrelevant, just resume padding for the next opportunity.

~~~
cheez
I worked on a project that was a clusterfuck of SalesForce, AWS AND Azure.

The company was making hand over fist. They didn't care about the quality so
long as the payments were made and they weren't losing customers to
competition due to tech choices.

------
thorwasdfasdf
It's all symptoms of the same problem: a vast oversupply of educated talent.
To some degree we have it here to in the US, but it's much greater in China.
With an oversupply of labor/talent, companies can be arbitrarily selective.

In China, seasonal workers coming into the city actually earn more than
college degree holders because there's just so many people with degrees. We
something similar starting to happen in the US, as more and more people get
bachelors degrees, those people get compensated less and less.

~~~
Loughla
>We something similar starting to happen in the US, as more and more people
get bachelors degrees, those people get compensated less and less.

Maybe 10 years ago you could say this. But today the statement needs to
solidly be:

>This is what the state of affairs has been in the US for years now. More
people got bachelor's and were compensated less and less. More positions that
previously required a high school degree now arbitrarily require a bachelor's.
Students are flocking to trade schools in record numbers, and
colleges/universities are almost all in a downward spiral right now.

~~~
superhuzza
I don't think that's accurate:

"The proportion of high school students who earned three or more credits in
occupational education — typically an indication that they're interested in
careers in the skilled trades — has fallen from 1 in 4 in 1990 to 1 in 5 now,
according to the U.S. Department of Education."

[https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-
pa...](https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-
jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university)

~~~
Loughla
That source is from 2009. In 2009, there absolutely were more students
interested in 4-year schools. In 2009 people were unemployed in nearly record
numbers, and institutions of higher education were bursting at the seams.

This is now 2019.

Working on the cutting edge of higher education AND career/tech programs, the
data isn't updated yet just because of the lag for completion rates, but
students are HEAVILY moving toward skilled trades.

At my institution we have seen a 14% decrease in 'traditional' programs (think
transfer to bachelors programs) and a 9% increase in skilled trades programs.

And a fun fact that those two numbers aren't the same. Fewer skilled trades
require formal schooling than 'traditional' fields. Many students are not
enrolling at all and are just finishing apprenticeships.

We're in a traditionally strong institution, and our enrollment is flat to 1%
up at best. Many institutions in our local system are down in enrollment in
the double digits in the last 3-5 years.

~~~
superhuzza
Oh good point, I took it on good faith that 'now' meant recently in the
original article. Original source definitely wasn't now. Fair enough.

------
reilly3000
Younger workers are less likely to take moral positions on company activities.
I worked at a mortgage lead generation site in the 2000's and bought
everything management sold. I can't see myself doing anything like that at
this stage in my life.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
> Younger workers are less likely to take moral positions on company
> activities.

Is that actually the case? When I think of protests, I don't think of the
elderly.

~~~
mdtancsa
Not sure. It might be younger people are more likely to take stronger
positions so that they go out and protest? If you use voter participation as a
proxy for moral engagement, kids as a whole dont seem to care as much as older
people. [https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/newsroom/press-
kit...](https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/newsroom/press-
kits/2017/voting-and-registration/figure04.png)

------
alphamale619
"They’re not able to focus on the high-intensity work" That is true. most 30
and over people with work experience know devoting 9-12 hours a day to a
company is not worth it. While, a young engineer right out of college doesn't
know any better. Burn them out after 2-3 years. rinse and repeat.

The main problem is employees are "at-will." Meaning they can be fired at
anytime without reason. companies have no incentive to not overwork employees.
Laws regarding "at-will" need to be changed

------
syntaxing
Interestingly enough,I'm having the opposite problem here in the US... I've
been applying to multiple tech firms for hardware roles and keep on getting
rejected since they are almost all trying to hire senior positions rather than
mid-level at this time.

~~~
bluGill
when you have been around for a while you learn that senior people know
something worth paying extra for. Then you start to demand only that until you
discover all the senior people retire close to the same time and you don't
have any organization depth coming up behind them.

Which is why when my department asked to hire a senior person to replace
someone who transferred on leadership made us hire an entry level person to
train up (then the next person left and we were allowed to hire a senior
person).

------
Jonnax
It's funny how executive leadership never consider themselves too old for the
job.

------
AFascistWorld
Considering what big tech firms do in China mostly is copying other people's
ideas using their own guys then drive them out of business, cheaper is better.

------
mythrwy
All firms? Some firms? Most firms? The biggest firms? China is pretty big
place.

Not that I don't believe it because things like that appear to happen
informally in the US as well, but article would have been better with some
supporting numbers.

------
terryschiavo22
More punitive OT laws help discourage this kind of behavior. You'd seek out
more experienced workers if it meant avoiding the huge salaries you'd
otherwise be paying younger workers working large swaths of OT.

------
atum47
That kinda sucks. I was recently approached by two Google employees, one of
them said he likes my projects on GitHub, that I'm Google material and if I
would like for him to refer me to a job there. I was very excited, of course.
Did all they asked, applied for 3 positions as the usual on their process and
managed to not even pass to the first interview. I'm 34 and going to college
for 2nd time, graduating this year. Maybe this isn't my case, but I can't help
to wonder.

~~~
gregcrv
They are just trying to get a referral bonus.

~~~
atum47
Is that a thing?

~~~
gregcrv
Oh yes: [https://resources.workable.com/tutorial/employee-referral-
bo...](https://resources.workable.com/tutorial/employee-referral-bonus)

~~~
atum47
Dude...

------
itissid
This would make a good study in Economics:

1\. Given Large supply of Developers as compared to Demand.

1.1 What causes Poor Software Quality Control and Poor hiring practices(resume
padding or tech hiring offloaded to non techies)?

Are things like Long/Odd Working hours, Poor wages(race to the bottom), Talent
flight and High attrition rate, Poor productivity etc just enforcing a vicious
cycle till things hit some sort of equilibrium(software that just works and is
barely maintainable and business margin is based on things like PPP between
countries)?

1.2 How do good things come about; Like Decent/Good Software Quality Control,
Good Hiring practices? Perhaps these cases have just okayish wages but poor
working hours/balance? And there is an implicit bias towards a Younger talent
pool because of focus on productivity.

2\. Given short supply of workers as compared to Demand I have seen
similarities to 1.1 and 1.2, the only difference is that people have options
and always gravitates towards better employers and work conditions; the wages
are overall much better than case 1 period. There are still many interesting
economic questions to be answered here, but likely different, more specialized
ones as compared to (1).

------
mzo123231
Basically there are no senior developers in those tech firms. They are going
to be running around in circles. I couldn't think of a worst idea.

------
logfromblammo
Unfortunately, the current US immigration policy has made it unlikely that US
tech firms would be able to take advantage of any prejudicial ageism bias in
China.

It'd be nice to entice them to resettle in cities other than those on the west
coast, too, but that might be a local culture problem, less amenable to
remediation by legislation.

~~~
qaq
Majority of large tech firms have dev. offices in EU and India so they sure
can take advantage of this.

------
known
"If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving,
subsidize it." \--Reagan

------
jondubois
In the future, the majority of the world's population will be either hackers
or mafia members. It will be a complete breakdown of human values. World
governments will probably be forced to legalize crime. If we remove
meritocracy, we'll end up with anarchy.

~~~
Eli_P
I think oldsters will become that old guy from the dystopian movie Brazil
(1985), who did the work he loved illegally and for free, because of insane
bureaucracy.

~~~
atum47
I need to watch that

------
madengr
You can always work in the military industrial complex. Lot’s of gray hair,
including myself. Most under 35 don’t know WTF they are doing anyway;
sometimes amusing to watch them flop, then $$$ for me to fix their mess.

------
duxup
A little bit like the US maybe?

I was already in a technical field, was laid off after a company buyout, I
changed careers and took a coding bootcamp.

A few like minded classmates and I would compare notes after we did
interviews.

The other two older guys and I got a lot of "culture" related questions. One
dude was actually told by the recruiter that they were worried he was too old,
he was surprised they'd actually say it to him so he asked ... and the
recruiter repeated herself happily.

Meanwhile the younger classmates reported hearing nothing about "company
culture" in any of their interviews...

The description of culture was often pretty benign ("we like to have fun" and
so forth) but I couldn't help but wonder if it wasn't just a placeholder for
some bias. On one occasion I got a description of "we're a young office".

~~~
codesushi42
In a weird way, it may have been for the best. It is incredibly frustrating to
work with arrogant 20 somethings who don't know squat. Youth doesn't just mean
inexperience, it can also come with a lot of ego with nothing to back it up.

~~~
agentultra
I can confirm this. I was 20-something once. I have the blog posts to prove
how arrogant I was.

~~~
munchbunny
I'm months away from leaving the 20-something club, and looking back at what I
wrote to myself in my journal, it's amazing how much my own views and
temperament have changed in even five years. Looking at fresh college grads
now, I have moments of realizing "this is how I looked to the senior members
of my team."

It's humbling. It's also encouraging to extrapolate that into how much more
room there is to grow.

~~~
neilv
Don't be humbled. 20yos interpret humility as weakness. :)

------
trhway
the same reason why everybody drafts/conscripts youngsters into the army - the
youngsters dont ask questions, dont hold theirs superiors responsible and with
great enthusiasm do what they told to do. A very powerful sledgehammer style
tool. Obviously been there myself - not the army, that i dodged by the way of
ROTC (USSR/Russia), i mean i've been to that place of stupid(well, looking
back it looks that way even though it is in significant part a result of
inexperience) unquestioning enthusiasm.

------
sneakernets
So experience doesn't matter anymore? Why even bother?

------
purplezooey
I don't like what we're doing to people over 30/40 at all. How long will this
last? Is it a global fad of some kind?

------
thrownaway954
Maybe for programmers, but for DBAs, Sys and Network Admins, most companies
want older candidates in my experience.

------
nudpiedo
The rest of the developed world is aging, I guess each society has to leverage
their strengths.

~~~
marcinzm
As I understand it, China is aging more than the developed world rather than
less. The one child policy has led to a massive disparity between generation
sizes with proportionally fewer young people.

------
anonlapwarmer
Workers forget they're basically underpaid chattel.

------
mistrial9
confirm -- recent first-person account by an American living in Vietnam
capital city .. tech dev ads explicitly ask for under-30

------
jackfrodo
I recently was talking to a libertarian friend about this kind of thing
(specifically the gender wage gap). He argued that if there were a group of
people getting paid less for the same work, then any good business would only
hire people like that, because it's cheaper.

Obviously this isn't the case, but I do find it curious that the market
doesn't seem to prove a strong enough incentive for the people making hiring
decisions to overcome their biases.

~~~
luckylion
> Obviously this isn't the case, but I do find it curious that the market
> doesn't seem to prove a strong enough incentive for the people making hiring
> decisions to overcome their biases.

Or the biases just aren't there in the way somebody from the outside perceives
them, or the market would very much take care of it. This kind of reasoning
("the fundamental market mechanics totally don't apply" vs "my perception is
probably flawed and things aren't as easy as they seem") reminds me of most
people's early reactions when they encounter bugs: "this must be a bug in the
OS/compiler/interpreter" vs "I must've made a mistake/misunderstood
something". With more experience, they usually find out that it's somewhat
unlikely to be the first person to encounter a super weird bug, and very
likely to make mistakes.

~~~
jimbokun
""this must be a bug in the OS/compiler/interpreter" vs "I must've made a
mistake/misunderstood something""

At a certain point, you start fervently hoping it's "I must've made a
mistake/misunderstood something", because then you can fix it. But good luck
waiting for the OS/compiler/interpreter to be fixed, or digging into an
unfamiliar open source code base to fix it yourself.

------
0815test
Looks like SV is exporting techbro ageism to China, this will surely help with
the trade deficit!

