
Sleepless in Silicon Valley - prostoalex
https://www.economist.com/business/2019/05/18/sleepless-in-silicon-valley
======
DenisM
Another view on the Oura thing:
[https://www.medpagetoday.com/practicemanagement/informationt...](https://www.medpagetoday.com/practicemanagement/informationtechnology/78317)

It's rather skeptical. Choice quote:

[...] The SRI researchers studied 41 healthy adolescents and young adults
(average age 17). Sleep data were recorded using the Oura ring and standard
PSG on a single laboratory overnight. Metrics were compared using Bland-Altman
plots and epoch-by-epoch analysis.

The ring accurately detected "light" and "deep" sleep in 65% and 51% of the
sleep epochs, respectively. It also accurately detected 61% of REM sleep
epochs, with an overall overestimation of PSG REM sleep (by about 17 min).
When the ring misclassified PSG REM sleep, the algorithm usually classified
the epoch as "light sleep" (76%).

These data suggest that the Oura Ring is virtually useless in telling you if
you are in REM sleep versus deep or light sleep. [...]

~~~
RandallBrown
It doesn't matter so much how accurate it is, as long as it's consistently
inaccurate.

I don't care if my scale at home is perfectly accurate. I care about knowing
that my weight is going up/down.

~~~
pmiller2
I care if my scale at home is accurate. I don't want to know if my weight is
going up or down, I want to know what I currently weigh so I can decide what I
need to do about it.

~~~
rconti
Your example seems to disagree with your premise. If someone tells me I weigh
"9239" this means nothing to me, unless in context of whether it's going up or
down, and how it is related to others of my height (and age and gender,
perhaps).

I don't care that I weigh some multiple of an SI unit, or some fraction of a
car. I care about my weight relative to others and my history.

~~~
kuzimoto
If you care about your weight relative to others, then it has to be accurate,
no? Because how would you compare your weight unless you had a bunch of people
using your scale.

~~~
rconti
True, but given that it's more difficult to change your weight than it is to
find someone of a different weight, I'd rather live my whole life with a scale
that might be reading (say) 5lbs high or low, rather than a scale that
_fluctuates_ between 5lbs high or low from measurement to measurement.

------
fizwhiz
Tbh the oura ring has been a game changer for a data nerd like me. I can
easily see how some exercise in the day actually impacts my HRV[1] and then
the quality of my sleep. Had a heavy night of drinking? Watch what the oura
ring reports not just on the same night but even the next night :) Basically
if you're thinking of starting your own "protocol" for sleep and would like to
A/B test what works and what seems like superfluous ceremony, the oura ring is
a cost-effective way to measure the effectiveness of said protocol.

I think the protocol described in the article isn't anything terribly new.
Most folks on HN know that blue light actually messes with sleep so if you're
planning on using a screen until right before you goto bed it's a great idea
to use the blue-light canceling computer glasses. Mindfulness meditation is
generally a great practice to calm oneself and be reflective. I don't
personally sleep at 8:45pm (rather, 11:45pm) but I do have my meal a few hours
before I goto bed. I also don't drink much water closer to bedtime so I'm not
rudely awakened in the middle of the night to urinate. I live in a place where
the black-out blinds aren't a necessity. I've never messed with deep sound
waves.

Of course, some folks will exclaim "Well I don't need a device to give me a
report card on how well it thinks I slept!" ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

[1] [https://ouraring.com/heart-rate-variability-
basics/](https://ouraring.com/heart-rate-variability-basics/)

~~~
novok
Why use this over an apple watch or fitbit?

~~~
0xffff2
Does the Apple Watch do sleep tracking out of the box now? I was one of the 5
people who bought a Microsoft Band, and I really enjoyed the sleep tracking
features. I still haven't pulled the trigger on an Apple Watch since switching
to and iPhone because it (used to?) lack sleep tracking as a feature.

~~~
bredren
No. It still is intended to charge overnight. Apple store sells other sleep
tracking products at this time.

~~~
ihuman
It charges fast enough that you can wear it almost 24/7 if you plan ahead and
charge for a bit in the morning and at night

[https://david-smith.org/blog/2015/09/21/how-to-wear-your-
app...](https://david-smith.org/blog/2015/09/21/how-to-wear-your-apple-
watch-24-slash-7/)

------
checkyoursudo
My sleep tracking now consists of putting my APAP on to counteract my sleep
apnea, falling asleep within seconds because I'm like Pavlov's sleeping baby
dog because of the machine, and then waking up and seeing what the machine
says re: how long it has been pushing air in my nose.

It works surprisingly well, actually. If I only got 6.5 hours of APAP last
night, then I will pretty reliably go to bed a little earlier tonight.

My takeaway from this is that someone should make a fake CPAP face mask for
people who don't need a CPAP that tells you how long you've been wearing it.
I'm 100% convinced that the mask itself is what makes me fall asleep so fast.
Once the mask is on, my brain knows it's time for sleep and complies. I guess
I don't know if that's the same for all APAP/CPAP/Bi-PAP users though.

~~~
Brushfire
I'm curious - How do stomach sleepers adjust to these masks? Or does sleep
apnea only affect back sleepers? It would be impossible for me to sleep
wearing a mask.

~~~
rootusrootus
There are masks and pillows specifically designed for stomach sleepers. But
stomach sleeping is somewhat uncommon, and plenty of people who sleep in more
conventional positions can't adapt to sleeping with a CPAP, so you probably
just have to find out yourself.

FWIW, I have sleep apnea and I'm a strict side sleeper. I also had a real
tough time getting used to sleeping with something attached to my face.
Sometimes I still take it off if I'm awake too long during the 2-4am time
period, but most nights I sleep through without even noticing. I use a nasal
mask, though, I absolutely have not ever been able to tolerate a full face
mask.

------
hrzn
"Why We Sleep" by Matthew Walker is an excellent book for those interested in
what science has to say about sleep (disclaimer: it's excessively good for
you)

~~~
rootusrootus
Sometimes I wonder if Mr. Walker is paying people at HN to talk about his book
:). Comes up more often than I'd expect.

~~~
chillacy
He should write me a check, I’ve recommended that book on HN and offline to at
least 5 new readers.

------
jchrisa
My hack is just fall asleep when putting the kids to sleep and wake up
whenever I feel like. If I've been pushing hard, sometimes I'll take all 10
hours, other nights I'm up at 4am ready to work.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I wish my two year old would sleep 10 hours a night.

------
Willson50
[https://outline.com/E7sbMG](https://outline.com/E7sbMG)

------
remarkEon
Hmm another sleep article.

I'll share what I do. After being in the Army for a while, and waking up at
430 and going to bed at close to midnight for a long time during the week
(there's no real "sleep schedule" overseas though) I've been working on tuning
my sleep cycle for the seasons to great success. Over the last year I've been
slightly altering my alarm each night based on when sunrise is (plus going to
bed earlier/later as the days lengthen/shorten), and it's significantly
improved how quickly I fall asleep, how easily I get out of bed in the
morning, and how rested I feel. I'm not a huge "fitness tracker" guy (still
analog in that regard, with a notebook for workouts instead of some app or a
spreadsheet). No idea if there's any science behind any of what I'm doing and
frankly I don't care. It works great for me.

~~~
xixixao
Can you add more details on how you handle seasons? This is something I've
been wondering about. Do you shorten/lengthen your sleep? Or just shift it to
always wake up at sunrise? I think shifting seasons might be one "natural"
thing which our biology is not "naturally" attuned to, and a fixed-length day
would probably be better (maybe we'll have it in the future on a space colony,
by I digress).

~~~
remarkEon
I think it's as simple as I sleep more in the winter and less in the summer
and about the same between spring and fall. Not anything crazy. It's probably
an average of ~7 hours in the summers and 8+ in the winter. I live in a high
latitude city and last year I figured I'd just try it, given how much more
light we get in the summer. Work is a little hard to accommodate in the winter
sometimes, but otherwise I think I'll probably do this for the rest of my
life.

------
chriselles
I use a Samsung smartwatch that came with my Samsung S9 as a package deal.

The sleep tracker has been useful to me in tracking my quantity/quality and
average sleep.

I still get to spend a few weeks a year a few times a year assessing human
performance.

Sleep is absolutely critical to human physical, mental, emotional, and social
performance.

And as the parent of adolescent children who are technology driven, monitoring
their "digital nutrition", mixing in other activities, ensuring they are well
fed/hydrated, and compelling good sleep hygiene is absolutely essential to
their development as adolescents towards adulthood.

It's quite shocking to observe how common it is for both adults and children
to be seen suffering from poor sleep hygiene.

------
strikelaserclaw
sleep, healthy eating, and exercise are fundamental to living a long and
fulfilling life. I think it's great that people are trying to determine in a
quantitative way when we've "slept good." I sure as hell can use a device that
can tell me if I've slept well, so i can try to establish a pattern between
how i feel the next day and what these devices tell me as to how i slept.

~~~
DenisM
What would you do with that data, that you cannot do with a simple journal
you'd fill out each morning?

------
jasaloo
Re/ oura rings... anyone else paranoid of a private company having access to
intensely personal data?

If I were an insurance company I'd be lobbying the shit out of these guys to
see how much they'd charge me to get my hands on it.

(and yeah, I read Oura's privacy agreement already... was less than impressed)

~~~
rexpop
Of course, but this is just another in a long train of abuse-potential. The
technology isn't the choke point for protecting our rights, and individual
consumer choices will never be revolutionary enough to alter the terms of
consumption.

------
3xblah
Polysomnography seems like an area in desperate need of innovation to improve
efficiency and lower cost. It is far too expensive for the entire undiagnosed
sleep-deprived population to have a single sleep study let alone for those
already diagnosed to have more frequent observation.

------
beat
I recently went through a sleep study, and the doctor was openly aggravated by
how current trends and devices focus on "deep sleep", when it's actually
"light sleep" that we need to regain our mental focus.

~~~
yocheckit
Really? Care to elaborate?

~~~
xkcd-sucks
REM is "light sleep", one 3 hour-ish sleep cycle is "NREM stage I -> NREM
stage II -> NREM stage III -> REM" where REM is considered "pretty close to
awake" and NREM stage numbers are "progressively deeper". Deeper basically
means lower body temperature, less movement, and slower breathing.

This is on the basis of clustering/pattern matching body movement, body
temperature, and some brain wave/MRI crap.

VERY broadly speaking, "deep" NREM stages are important for "body health"
while REM is important for maintenence of memories and "mental health".

As with anything in neurobiology, it's "emerging evidence suggests that..."
and nobody _really_ knows what's going on. Except all evidence suggests
sleeping less is bad for pretty much everything.

The dynamics of sleep state transitions are also pretty meaningful, e.g. time
it takes to move from one stage to the next, whether there's "backwards"
transitions, etc. For example, sleep deprivation lengthens deep NREM time,
lowers latency from wake -> NREM I, and shortens the entire sleep cycle.

~~~
yocheckit
huh, that is fascinating to hear. Will definitely be keeping an eye on this
space, thanks for the info.

------
cavisne
I've found the app recommended by wirecutter

[https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-sleep-tracking-
app/](https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-sleep-tracking-app/)

Quite accurate, at least for time to sleep, and time asleep. I think the REM,
NREM etc is mostly noise, if you are getting 8+ hours a night every night
(super hard to do!) the quality of sleep should be fine.

The best thing is to set a "go to bed" alarm, for night owls like me its so
easy to say you go to bed "around 10" when in fact it can be much later.

------
chandeliermbing
This is a great example of how quantitative facts decide over the qualitative
evaluation of all things in Silicon Valley - including deeply personal matters
like sleep and even relationships. I've been living in Silicon Valley for a
while now and I can't believe my eyes and ears sometimes!

------
peshooo
> Techies obsess about OKRs (objectives and key results), KPIs (key
> performance indicators).

What an over-generalization.

~~~
calvinbhai
This article is published by an entity/author obsessing over SEO, CTR, CPM,
CPI (basically ad $$$)

------
DiabloD3
So why aren't we just using Sleep As Android like normal people, and not using
some weird devices to track it? Absolutely don't understand the fetish of
expensive devices just to track sleep, and I'm the one here with the non-24hr
circadian rhythm.

~~~
krtkush
Not everyone has an Android phone and some people don't like keeping their
phones right next to their bed.

I have a fitbit charge 2 and that thing does more than just track sleep -
heart rate, VO2 max, steps, connected GPS for running. So the expensive device
is not a bad investment IMO.

------
lacampbell
In New Zealand, electric blankets are very common because (for the most part)
we're too poor to live in insulated houses. It's hilarious that they've been
re-discovered as a sleep hack for hyper-wealthy californians.

~~~
dolguldur
Yours are probably just heating. Theirs are cooling

------
par
though this article is basically an ad for the oura ring, i do think sleep
hygiene is an interesting topic and worthy of conversation. Would love to hear
what the HN crowd thinks.

------
adharmad
Apart from being a snarky article, the author does not propose any actual
solutions. So what if a few folks try to hack sleep? Whatever floats their
respective boats....

~~~
lukecameron
> It is hardly surprising that techies are not getting enough sleep, given the
> industry’s culture of long hours, and the widespread notion that for a true
> entrepreneur, everything else in life is secondary to succeeding at work.

This article was very snarky, even for the economist. It seems distinctly
below their usual standard of quality with broad generalisations such as the
above, seemingly contradicted by an anecdote about Bryan Johnson and others'
bizarre sleep practices.

For me this article would have been a lot better if it focused on the sleep
tech industry, and applied a more measured and evidence-based approach to its
silicon valley criticisms, some of which certainly are relevant and worthy of
discussion.

------
wyclif
I have a question for those far more into sleep hygiene than I am: is it
possible to get blue light-blocking prescription lenses for normal glasses?

~~~
neves
Yes. Every lenses has this option by now.

------
dqpb
> radiation-blocking Faraday tents

Is there any research that indicates this would be beneficial in any way?

------
an4rchy
Paywalled, but based on the free paragraphs, I was kinda surprised that it
didn't talk about the other factors that may affect sleep.

Currently reading 'Why we sleep' which is a fascinating book about the
importance/history/evolution of sleep across species and time. (Highly
recommend it -- definitely regretting all the sleepless/low sleep nights)

At a high level, my understanding is that the duration/quality of sleep
depends on physiological, mental and environmental conditions.

It sounds like the focus of the article was on environmental (I would
definitely love to sleep with zero light/sound).

Similarly, the 5-10 mins meditation may help, but if you're stressed out or
have something on your mind, that can still keep you awake or wake you up.

You can make sure not to eat/drink anything by that time (6pm) but effects of
caffeine/other foods you might have eaten earlier can impact your sleep
quality.

Finally, the right physiological/chemical changes need to occur (melatonin/REM
cycles/tired from physically exhausting activities) for you to actually be
sleepy. Most people can't just sleep on command, although, you might be able
to build/force the habit.

~~~
DenisM
>(I would definitely love to sleep with zero light/sound).

You might not actually like it. Try a sensory deprivation tank and see how
that works for you.

To reduce the noise you can always reach for quality earplugs, a sleeping
mask, and blackout curtains.

------
cocoa19
Now I want to get an Oura! Are ads getting smarter?

------
oddie
The accuracy of estimating sleep stages using heart rate and movement metrics
is an interesting, and tenuous, subject. WRT to Fitbit and Oura the TLDR is
that Fitbit and Oura aren’t accurate for slow wave (Deep Sleep) or REM.
However, Fitbit is better at REM detection [1][2] than Oura.

While sleep staging can be useful for identifying case sleep disorders, we
know that the brain self-optimizes the stages of sleep you go through.

So, what’s far more important than worrying about your rem or deep is
optimizing getting time in any stage of sleep. Each stage is critical in a
different way.

If you care about improving your performance the measures you should care
about—backed by strong scientific consensus and a plurality of randomized
evidence—are sleep debt and where you are in your circadian rhythm. Sleep
scientists call this the two factor model

This reality drove us to create a sleep improvement app, called Rise
([[https://www.risescience.com](https://www.risescience.com/)](https://www.risescience.com\]\(https://www.risescience.com/\))).
We started both our research and company initially for elite athletes. We tell
them what to do to improve their sleep tonight based on science. It's
currently being used by both professional and collegiate teams across the NFL,
MLB, NBA, MLS, and NCAAF.

We've been taking what we've learned from athletes and adapting for us regular
folk.

If you're interested in joining our beta, sign up here:
[[http://bit.ly/hacker-friends](http://bit.ly/hacker-
friends)](http://bit.ly/hacker-friends\]\(http://bit.ly/hacker-friends\))

[1]
[[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28323455](https://www.nc...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28323455\]\(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28323455\))

[2]
[[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29235907](https://www.nc...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29235907\]\(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29235907\))

------
B1FF_PSUVM
Bet they'll have us walking on our hands before the century is over.

