
Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’ - jjp
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37923133
======
toomanybeersies
I was in scouts and cadets here in New Zealand when I was a teenager and
continue to spend a fair amount of time in the outdoors (I also did Outward
Bound when I was 16), and I can definitely relate to the researcher's
findings.

When you're 2 days walk from civilisation, it's pissing down with rain, and
you're cold, wet, hungry, and tired, you get a different perspective on life
and the "soft" challenges that you face in life back home.

By "soft" challenges I mean things that aren't really life threatening, if you
fail to pay the bills, you aren't going to die. If you get soaking wet and get
hypothermia in the bush, you could very well die (although it's very unlikely
in a structured environment like scouts).

I used to ignore problems that I didn't like, and more or less wait for them
to go away, this approach obviously didn't work too well. One thing that
spending a lot of time in the outdoors did was teach me that when you're in
the shit, the only thing that you can do is keep on going forward. When it's
dark and cold, and you're tired and your feet hurt, sitting down and resting
and waiting isn't going to help you, you need to keep on walking to the hut.
And there's nobody else who's going to help you; you can't phone a friend and
get them to do the walking for you.

The teamwork skills you learn are different to the ones you learn in a soft
environment too. Everyone works together for a group benefit, because you're
all stuck there together.

I've never served in the military, but from the people I know that have, they
pretty much learn to take the same attitude. I think that these experiences
are something that everyone should have exposure to earlier in life. I've had
some experiences where I was absolutely miserable at the time, but in
retrospect have been very powerful character building and learning
experiences. I spent a week cold and wet in the rain, with a wet tent and a
wet sleeping bag on Outward Bound and for 2 nights I was sleeping on an open
sailboat and managed about 3 hours of sleep total, I hated it at the time, but
it was one of the most character building experiences of my life in
retrospect.

~~~
chiph
> I've never served in the military, but from the people I know that have,
> they pretty much learn to take the same attitude.

The phrase used in the US military for this is "Embrace the suck". Which means
"The situation is bad, but deal with it."

~~~
stvswn
As an Eagle Scout and former Army officer, one of my enduring life lessons has
been "false motivation is better than no motivation."

When you're cold, wet, and tired it helps to pretend you love it. It's
infectious, too.

It is actually a good feeling when you realize you're not as fragile as you
thought you were. "I would have thought that I'd be miserable in this
situation, but I'm actually OK" is a good thought to have.

~~~
istorical
The same mechanism is probably why studies show that forcing a smile even when
you don't feel happy can lead you to slowly become happier.

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/smile-it-could-
ma...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/smile-it-could-make-you-
happier/)

~~~
capnrefsmmat
This result has been cast into doubt by a recent replication attempt, which
failed to find any such forced-smile effect.

[https://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/StrackRRR_manuscrip...](https://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/StrackRRR_manuscript_accepted.pdf)

------
Artoemius
It might be one of the cases where correlation doesn't imply causation. For an
objective study, we would need to assign children to groups randomly.
Otherwise, we can miss various obscure selection effects. (For example, if
children who are more likely to be scouts, are also likely to be from a
particular socioeconomic background).

~~~
parennoob
This is almost certainly the case. Being a scout/guide strongly correlates
with parental income in the US at least – I don't know how it is in the UK.
But if that is true, the headline might as well be "Being rich provides a
mental health boost for life".

~~~
JoeAltmaier
My scouts (was Scoutmaster for 20 years) definitely did not fit the 'rich kid'
profile. Farm kids, rural community, parents working 2 jobs or driving a
truck.

We went to mountains, deserts, rivers and lakes. We swam in a lake on an
island in a lake. We canoed, hiked, camped, cooked, woodworked, laughed and
ran.

Our Troop tried to keep event costs down to around $15, so everybody could
participate. Succeeded for the most part. And we did regular fundraisers so
anybody who wanted to go, had a way to get there.

Scout Troops can be expensive too. Our district has that kind. That can drive
the perception of the demographic. But our Troop was top-rated in our District
for years. And not because of money. It was because our youth led a very
rigorous program, invested themselves in it, and expected a lot from one
another.

That's actually the whole point of Scouting - getting the youth invested in
something worthwhile. In the process, modeling behaviors and training skills
and leadership.

~~~
moyta
Depends on your troop, I know by far we were the best funded troop in our
council, but that was purely due to the area we were able to sell christmas
trees in. Without that, we would not have been able to get half our troop to
go on trips, or get the proper gear (wool clothing, a good pack, tent,
sleeping pad, etc) due to a lack of affordability.

I do feel bad for the other troops in our area though, I know at least 2
folded while we were going strong, one got kicked out of the district cause
the BSA hates gay scoutmasters, and the other had no place to meet and severe
funding issues. Running a troop requires a ton of parental involvement and
effort, and outside the Mormons most troops are dying in the US.

It is really quite sad, but I get why. None of the gay guys in my troop could
participate in leadership due to the BSA's policies at the time, and in a
small troop that is lethal, you need every warm body that is willing to do the
fundraising, planning, organizing, paperwork, etc. and they are few and far
between

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Our Troop required only a little parental involvement. The youth leadership
decided most things. The parents were needed to drive, to serve on the
committee (one meeting a month). It helps to have a strong Patrol Leader
Council.

The gay youth in my Troop never had a problem taking leadership roles. The BSA
national (read: Mormon) policy was no gay Adult leaders?

------
jokoon
I recently went to an army reserve training for 13 days.

It was intense but really great. Days were from 6AM to 21pm. I really
appreciated how everything was structured and very organized. Pressure was
there and could be felt, the purpose was to learn everything a soldier needs
to know, so the purpose was clear and well defined. You could not hang there
and pretend that you don't understand why you're learning this or that.

Everything was demonstrated, explained and shown.

What I remember from these two weeks is how 3 guys started threatening me
because they thought I reported the showers not being cleaned properly, while
I was just talking about using flip flops in showers.

Lack of popularity caught up on me, and a guy threw a fake grenade at me, and
I went to emergency care but lost no hearing, but could not complete the
training, so I came back disappointed, but still happy of those 2 weeks since
most of my scores were okay.

So like usual, those types of programs are great, but unless you prevent
people from behaving like predators, people won't take is seriously.

------
ben1040
On the flip side I personally found the Scouts to be a safe haven for bullying
that, when it happens to a child at the wrong time, will wreck their mental
health for years to come.

~~~
throwaway1892
Yeah, I agree that the Scouts can be a bad place for that kind of things,
which is why I think it might not be good for all childrens.

(I had been a Scout for a few year and got a lot of benefits from it, but I
know that my brother bullied a lot the younger scouts, so this is a real
problem)

~~~
majc2
I help to run a Scout group in the UK. All adult volunteers receive anti-
bullying and child safeguarding training. In my experience - bullying is not
tolerated in 'these times'.

But for sure, do what you think is best for your kids.

~~~
porker
'these times' being the crucial distinctor.

I was a cub in the early '90s in a deprived ex-mining town in the UK. Fighting
and bullying were rife.

My parents were warned by other parents they knew not to send me to the scout
troop, as it operated more like a gang than a troop.

------
Spearchucker
I was a boy scout in the late '70s and early '80s. Loved it, and although I
was too young to care at the time, my son will probably not join because
religion. Yes, they have a "non-religious promise" now, but you're still
subjected to it. I don't care for it, and my son will (like I did) get to
choose for himself but (unlike me) without being forcibly subjected to the
propaganda.

All that said, scouting has changed since I did it. We had a pretty heavy
focus on pioneering (my favourite memory is being given an hour to build a
suspended platform 2m above the ground before a fictional flood came), first
aid (still invaluable today) and orienteering. These days it's the above as
well as everything from computers to being a chef and performing arts.

~~~
allyjweir
What country did you have that experience in?

I'm an atheist and a Scout leader in the UK. When writing my programme I
always include a spiritual component to it but leave it non-religious. We
definitely discuss and explore different religions (in past year visited a
Mosque, an Abbey and a Synagogue to learn about their cultures) but never
focus hard on a religion or even suggest that holding a religious belief is
necessary to be a Scout.

Recently at an event where I renewed my promise I took the Atheist promise
which is as follows:

I promise that I will do my best Uphold our Scout values Do my duty to the
Queen Help other people And to keep the Scout laws

I find the majority of Scouters I meet, despite saying the original promise
follow this non-denominational one throughout their Scouting. We promote the
"worldwide family of Scouts" more than a religious grouping.

If you do look for a Scout group for your son, make sure to talk to the leader
there. Different groups approach the issue differently so try to find one that
suits you and lets your son avoid being 'forcible subjected to the propaganda'
though it can be good for a young person to experience it and make that
decision for themselves.

~~~
verbify
> I promise that I will do my best Uphold our Scout values Do my duty to the
> Queen Help other people And to keep the Scout laws

Well I'm an atheist and a republican, so that wouldn't work for me.

~~~
pmyteh
Being an atheist is expressly OK in the UK Scout movement (in fact, I'd say
it's probably true of a decent majority of our adult and young members), and
there's nothing in the scout values that people promise to uphold which
require religion in any sense.

The duty to the Queen bit is a little bit more tricky. I'm a republican (and a
scout leader) and concluded I was happy to follow the wording. The reason
being that it doesn't define the scope of the duty, especially not in terms I
would find problematic. The traditional scope of the duty is to keep the peace
and not commit treason, both of which are required by statute law in any case.
I don't see it as incompatible with wanting a change in the country's
constitutional arrangements. And certainly the Scout movement wouldn't insist
otherwise.

------
zzzeek
How does this account for more anxious /less well adjusted kids not becoming
scouts in the first place due to the difficulty they already have in being
part of heavily conformist group activities ?

------
bediger4000
I'm going to say that the study probably did uncover the truth. I was in the
USA Boy Scouts, and one thing I noticed (and disagree with) is the unspoken
limitations placed on participants. For instance, what's the highest
assignment one can have as a Boy Scout? _Junior_ Assistant Scoutmaster. The
Scoutmaster is always very firmly in control. In Scouts, I learned not to
expect to rise to the top, indeed, not to even have ambitions to do so, as
this is just not possible. This is probably good for all but a vanishingly
small number of people: virtually everyone will not be in command, but will be
at most a middle manager. It's probably good for your mental health to not be
disappointed when your ambitions to become President, or General or CEO are
revealed to be impossible. If you learn "your place" instinctively, you won't
spend effort trying to be someone that the system just won't let you be. Good
all around, I say.

~~~
wtallis
> "For instance, what's the highest assignment one can have as a Boy Scout?
> Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is always very firmly in
> control."

It sounds like you were in a Boy Scout troop being run with a Cub Scout
mindset, rather than one operating according to the official rules and goals.
I've never seen JASM described as the highest job assignment a scout can hold;
most people would say that's the Senior Patrol Leader, while JASM is a
transitional job for experienced scouts to learn how to step back from being a
direct leader to being a mentor who helps enable the boys to lead their troop.

~~~
pitaj
Yeah. SPL is the highest position a boy can have. JASM is just a position for
older scouts to transition to a more adult mentor role as they're approaching
adulthood.

~~~
bediger4000
Senior Patrol Leader, Junior Assistance Scout master, what's the difference,
really? If a use a military, rather than a business metaphor, a boy can be a
non-commissioned officer at best, not even a lieutenant.

~~~
wtallis
The point that you are refusing to understand is that what you describe and
apparently experienced is at most a common failure mode. It is not what the
program is intended to be, and it is not representative of a typical troop
with properly trained adult leadership. I'm sorry you had an asshole
scoutmaster who couldn't internalize even the first half hour of the training
he was supposed to receive before serving in that role.

~~~
bediger4000
I don't think I'm making my point, or you're deliberately mis-reading me. I
had at least decent scoutmasters, and some were very good. I was an Eagle
scout. I worked 3 summers at Great Rivers Council's Camp Thunderbird. I worked
3 summers at Philmont Scout Ranch, as a Range and at Cimmaroncito. I was in
the Order of the Arrow. I've seen more scouts and scoutmasters in more
situations than almost everyone. Most scoutmasters are good, a few are very
good, and virtually all of them are trying hard.

I guess I should say that I gained a lot from Scouting, and Scoutmasters.
Hopefully, I passed on some knowledge to the Scouts I interacted with as a
camp staff member. Hopefully those Scouts gained a lot from their experiences.
But all of that was outside the bounds of the Patrol Method, and at least
secondary to it. The true message of Scouting appears to be "know your place".
The "learn your place, and get better at things to serve the upper crust" is a
problem built into Scouting at its very beginning, and imbues it to this day.

------
jwdunne
I was in cubs, I was bullied out of it. Any social club can go both ways.

~~~
77pt77
Maybe bullying someone provides a "mental health boost".

I'm being a bit facetious but there seems to be at least a correlation.

Bullies live happier lives.

~~~
altonzheng
I don't know about this, a lot of bullies bully out of their own inner pain.

~~~
77pt77
Not really: [http://www.today.com/parents/study-bullies-have-higher-
self-...](http://www.today.com/parents/study-bullies-have-higher-self-esteem-
social-status-lower-levels-t36271)

> the study by researchers at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia,
> Canada, also found that bullies had the lowest levels of depression, the
> highest levels of self-esteem and the highest social status.

> The study supports the evolutionary process theory that there is a
> biological explanation for bullying because bullies gain benefits from being
> aggressive. That is contrary to the theory that bullies are often exhibiting
> this type of behavior because they have difficult home or school lives or
> have been the target of bullying or harassment themselves.

Most speech like that is just rationalizations that bullied people say to feel
better.

~~~
jwdunne
High self-esteem is what I was referring to, in essence.

High self-esteem is not equal to sound mental health. Psychopaths have high
self-esteem.

Not every bully is a psychopath. Unwarranted self-esteem leads to problems in
life whether it's high or low.

~~~
77pt77
The comment I was responding to mentioned bullying as a response to "inner
pain". If the study I quoted is accurate that is not the case.

I'm not going to dwell into self-esteem and socio/psycopathy labels.

------
balabaster
As someone who came from a single parent family of two boys... I am 40, I have
had depression for much of my life. We didn't have much money when I was
growing up. I was in the scouts and did the Duke of Edinburgh Award. The
single biggest lessons I learned from both are:

1\. When you have nothing left to give, sometimes will power and discipline
are the only things left in your toolbox that will get you where you need to
go.

2\. Self reliance - as someone noted earlier in the thread about a cyclist
"there is only one way home." It also gave me the skills and a sense of
confidence in my ability to survive without any of the trappings of city life.
If shit falls to pieces, as having depression has proven to me it can and has
and could again, I know I'll survive, regardless of anything - because I have
the skills, the will power and discipline to survive the worst.

So... I have a sample size of one that goes against the grain of this
research. Of course, being 15% less likely doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

------
kpennell
Reminds me of a great Rachel Carson quote:

“A child’s world is fresh and new and beautiful, full or wonder and
excitement. It is our misfortune that for most of us that clear-eyed vision,
that true instinct for what is beautiful and awe-inspiring, is dimmed and even
lost before we reach adulthood. If I had influence with the good fairy who is
supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I should ask that
her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible
that it would last throughout life, as an unfailing antidote against the
boredom and disenchantment of later year…the alienation from the sources of
our strength.” ― Rachel Carson, The Sense of Wonder

------
Jaruzel
This is a counterpoint article to this:

[https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-introduces-
nat...](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-introduces-national-
citizen-service-ncs-bill-to-parliament)

The NCS is being beefed up to become almost mandatory for young people.
Whereas UK Scouting has quite rightly pointed out they they've been doing this
for over 100 years already.

I can first hand (and second hand via my daughter) validate that being an
active Scout brings many benefits to the child, and helps shape their identity
for life.

~~~
throwaway1892
I also got a lot of benefits from my years as a Scout, as did my brothers, but
I think that it might not be a good fit for all children and some might not
get any benefits from it.

------
rtpg
I greatly enjoyed my time in the Scouts as a kid in the US. Unfortunately,
when I moved to France and joined the scouts there, I found it to be a hotbed
for far-right beliefs that I was deeply uncomfortable around.

There's something about getting a bunch of guys out in the forest that brings
out the worst in us I suppose. People who I would otherwise assume to be nice
talking about ethnic cleansing positively.

It's a strange, macho environment that I didn't expect after such a fun time
in the states...

~~~
moyta
That is really quite sad, outside the Mormon run troops, most are very
accepting here in the US, that being said it can get pretty fucked up pretty
quick conversation wise. Making me think back to singing "Killing the baby
seals" & jokes about the handy ole multicolored abortion scoop & coat hanger,
but all in good jest usually.

I do imagine having a few openly gay scouts in our troop and good leadership
did keep things from skewing far right, its hard to advocate against a race or
orientation when you spend hundreds of hours with people of said race or
orientation over the course of a year doing constructive things.

We had a great scout here from Hong Kong on exchange, so not all scouting
programs outside the US suck! It may just be a bad troop too, the Mormon
troops in the US are like a whole different organization policy wise. Very
clannish.

------
cairo_x
Chronic depression guy here. Was in scouts. Had depressed episodes just as
much in as out. I remember one time I was close to suicide, and watching
everyone else enjoying themselves made it worse. Would not recommend. I think
people with depression wouldn't have gone voluntarily, but I was kind of
forced. If you're going through depression scouts is the last fucking place
you want to be.

Maybe those who develop it in later years have less chance because you're less
likely to join if you're prone to depression in the first place? Mehbeh?

edit: I was never bullied. Had some fun times, but mostly struggling to keep
head above the pits of darkness. Good parents. Lucky guy. I always appreciated
my position from an abstract point of view.

Best way to describe it: Fatigue is an emotion
([https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323922/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323922/)).
You can only work through fatigue for so long. That's what it's like with
depression, except sleep doesn't refresh you. Wake up and it's still there.
Crippling.

------
ck425
Worth pointing out that this refers to Scouting in the UK. While other
scouting movements are based on the original UK scouting movement, there are
notable differences between all the scouting movements so this doesn't
necessarily apply to other movements. Regardless, good to see some solid press
for scouting, gave me some of the best experiences of my life and via Gang
Show introduced me to performing arts which plays a huge role in my life.

------
logingone
This must vary from country to country. The adventures I participated in with
scouts were not even remotely as adventurous as some school trips and
holidays.

------
ryandrake
All I remember from Scouts (USA, 1980s) was continuous fund raising. It was
all about learning how to sell candy bars and T-shirts every month. I don't
recall ever going on any actual outings in the woods or learning how to tie
knots--there was never time amid the constant fund raising.

------
redcalx
Link to the paper:

[http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-20789...](http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-207898.full.pdf+html)

------
gina650
Interesting article. I just featured a guest on my show talking about
computational psycholinguistics and using Language as a Window to the Brain.
He became interested in the subject after reading about the famous "nun study"
predicting dementia. [https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/michael-
covington](https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/michael-covington)

------
Nomentatus
I spent a lot of time in Scouts learning close order drill, indoors.
Seriously. Not much use, although definitely true to the "muscular
Christianity" that gave rise to Scouting. However, I spent plenty of time in
the woods when I didn't have to go to Scouts in the indoor community hall, so
that was good. The Hitler Youth movement was modeled after the Scouts, so it
would be interesting to see a study there...

------
Luc
I recently heard some advice from foreign students in the Netherlands, to not
mention ones time in the scouts to Dutch co-students.

Apparently it's looked down upon enough that it's best to keep it quiet,
especially if you're trying to get a room in a house rented by students.

Can a Dutch person comment on this? Is this true, and if so, why?

~~~
ragebol
Dutch scout here, I've been a scout since I was 7 and I'm now 28 and a cub
scout leader (kids aged 7-11).

Being in scouting can be perceived (in NL at least) as for nerds/geeks or
'corny' (don't know what is a good translation for the Dutch 'oubollig')

Especially when the kids hit puberty (the scouts/guides age), this negative
image thing among school peers can be a reason for kids to quit. When I was
that age, I didn't really care about much of that sort of talk and really
enjoyed my time at scouting. Although there definitely was a negative image
among school peers.

The image is changing for the better though. I certainly would not hide it.

I heard some nice stories from the scouts/guides at high school telling they
hiked through the woods for the weekend with a backpack and went canyoning
etc, while their non-scout peers only played video games inside.

When I was older and went to university, I noticed a lot of people did scouts
when they were little kids. Not sure why they quit.

The social aspect is definitely a plus in some professions.

~~~
Luc
Thanks!

I remember more details: this was about the 'instemming' (in Delft), a sort of
interview you need to go through to get a room. So I suppose being uncool
could be a factor there.

~~~
ragebol
Never been to such a night, but apparently it helps if you have a washing
machine or dishwasher or stuff like that to bring into the student house.

There are some student-scout groups in some Dutch student cities, maybe Delft
has one too.

------
danieltillett
The general rule of thumb to use with correlation studies like this is any
result under three fold is not likely to hold up in a randomised study. The
correlation between smoking and lung cancer is 15 fold.

------
Fifer82
Think how many variables are involved in this? I just don't accept it.

------
dominotw
Defund all 'social research'. This article is should be proof enough of all
the money and opportunity lost, not to mention harmful influence on policies,
on make work research.

~~~
mattkrause
All of it?

You _really_ don't think that it's important to understand the factors that
affect people's quality of life, or how groups interact? You don't see any
practical applications for this? No possible way that understanding group
dynamics could pay off, say in an workplace or military situation?

------
kelukelugames
correlation != causation.

~~~
harryh
I dunno why you're getting down voted as this is a clear point to make. A fun
game I like to play when I read these sorts of things in the news is to
reverse the causation implied by what I'm reading. Often times it make more
sense. In this case:

Those with better mental health are more likely to do Scouts and guides in
their youth.

~~~
ars
He's getting downvoted because he's short quip is not a useful addition to the
discussion.

If you already know that correlation != causation, then his quip is useless.
If you don't, then those two words are also useless to you.

Either way it's a useless post and if he can't be bothered to explain more,
then don't bother making the post.

~~~
robryk
I find such a comment to contribute more to the discussion (if it's actually
discussed) than all the anecdotes from many of the other top-level comments.
They are nicely worded and afford many points that can be discussed, most of
them irrelevant to the matter of the article.

