
As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God  - yters
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article5400568.ece
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gscott
Hacker news tends to focus on Adam and Eve but Church and the Bible is more
then a few lines about "creation". It is more about banding together in the
local community for a common cause which is to empower the community, provide
support for each other, and those far away.

I could write pages, but will leave one example for each.

Empower the Community

The church I attend has 50 people who volunteer at least once a week in one of
three different local grade schools that are low performing schools. These
schools do not have many (to none) parent volunteers. Members also have
donated 3 new books for each child in the schools, along with providing items
that the school needs but are not budgeted by the State.

Support for each other:

About 8 years ago when I was between jobs we did not have enough money to buy
any presents for our children that Christmas. Someone found out and the church
we attend came through with 3x what we would have spent if we did have the
money. The kids would have been happy enough with a few things from the dollar
store but they were much happier with an amazing Christmas.

Those far away

Last year our Son (age 12) was able to help put together a large play
structure for an orphanage in Mexico. It wasn't some cheap Chinese plastic
play structure but one that was solidly hand-built to last and handle the use
by 30 orphans. This was a good experience for our Son as well to go out and
see first hand that there is a lot of need out in the world that is
unaddressed.

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chaostheory
As a Christian I think this article is lacking; it doesn't belong here. While
it has plenty in feel good 1st hand experiences, there's just no objective
data to analyze or think about

[Update] Just so that I'm not a hypocrite (based on my past posts) I'm going
to post a counter argument (though the article doesn't give you much to argue
- it is mainly a personal account).

For every feel good subjective article, you can always find one on the
opposing side (though this one is less subjective and it has things relevant
to YC - things like facts and data):
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianoce...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/3407882/Child-
witches-of-Nigeria-seek-refuge.html)

~~~
yters
First, the article is not subjective. While the article does not have a table
of figures and hypothesis tests, the author presents a credible explanation
for his experience. So, you can't necessarily critique his evidence, but you
can critique and discuss his rational.

Second, the article you posted is not a counter argument. If anything, it
bolsters the original article's claim. Your article says that when
Christianity is mixed with the local animistic religions, the result is bad,
especially when money is added. This is not the same as saying African's don't
need God. Instead, it implies they need the Christian understanding of God.

------
marvin
I understand what this guy is talking about. Christianity holds a different
meaning some places outside the US. I've met quite a few Christians in Norway,
as part of going to a Christian private school for three years. A lot of these
people have a _drive_ that you don't see so often - a sense of purpose. I'm
worried that there may be a correlation/causation issue here, but it's
definitely something to investigate.

There is a lot of really evil people in the undeveloped parts of Africa, and
I'm positive to any idea that can reverse this trend. Nothing the Western
world has done so far has worked, and it may even be impossible for us to
influence the African continent to become a better place to live.

But this story supports anecdotes I have heard from people working as
missionaries in Africa. Christianity does good things to the mindsets of the
people who live there. One missionary that talked to us had worked for 10
years translating the Bible to some obscure African tongue. One major snag in
the process was getting the tribe he lived with to understand the concept of
forgiveness. After a few weeks of on-and-off talking to the people, one of
them understood - he replied that "yes, we have a way to express not getting
revenge for a wrongdoing. But no one would ever do that."

Africa stumps me - I just don't understand why so many people there keep doing
so many nasty things to one another. It's really un-PC to claim that there is
a moral and ethical issue involved, but it's a belief I hold pretty strongly.
I'm not saying that Christianity is the only way to fix this, but something is
needed.

~~~
yters
Well, if Christianity works, it may also provide a valid interpretation for
why Africa has so many problems. Christians would say the occult practices of
the Africans make them susceptible to evil spirits.

This interpretation works in the Amazon too. Read Spirit of the Rainforest. It
is a first hand account of a shaman's induction into witchcraft and eventual
conversion to Christianity. It is eye opening both for the account of the
shaman's culture and the bad things Western anthropologists do over there.

------
DanielBMarkham
Great article. Nice counterpoint to the usual "Christians are trashing our
world" articles. It's written in an informal, conversational style, and the
author is an outsider, giving him a different viewpoint than you usually hear.

Philosophically, switching from multiple deity worship to monotheism means
groups of people begin to share common opinions about how their life and
actions fit into a grander scheme. Switching further into a religion based on
love and self-sacrifice means the individual is not the sole purpose of living
(and neither is the state). Add to that the reformation, which underlined
personal responsibility for dogma and spawned ongoing dogmatic renewal, and
you've got a philosophy that puts common morals over self and continuously
strives to re-adjust those morals to changing times.

This article reminds me of a comment by a Roman doctor, who observed that when
the plague hit cities, doctors, priests, and acolytes would all flee into the
hills for safety -- except for the Christians, of course, who would stay and
tend to the sick.

Religions and the way we practice them have a lot of good and a lot of bad
things associated with them. I'm not of the opinion that they are all good, or
that they are all bad. I like to see opinions from both sides. I think we
confuse the scientific method with the effects of beliefs, e.g., if by
believing my neighbor's barn is red, I become happier and a greater
contributor to society, it matters very little what _actual_ color my
neighbor's barn is. It's the belief, not the shared empirical consensus. (Of
course, lots of problems occur when these clash, which means that longer-
lasting faiths must rest on believing things that are not seen, cannot be
observed in any fashion as one of the Pauline letters pointed out, I believe.)

------
eru
"Sure, I am too intelligent for the God delusion. But those Africans, they
need it.."

~~~
ced
Don't trivialize his viewpoint like that. What's wrong with being an atheist
and observing the positive effects that religion has on some people? If he
hadn't mentionned that he's an atheist, it could easily have come off as
religious preaching.

Also: why did this get killed? I hope we don't lose the ability to discuss the
effects of religion, independent of one's religious preferences.

~~~
gruseom
You put your finger on what I liked about this article, but couldn't quite
articulate. It's so much more subtle than what's usually written about these
things by either side (including on the sides of buses).

Did the story get killed? I don't see any indication of that.

~~~
ced
The title was showing as [dead] for some time. It's been resurrected.

~~~
gruseom
Oh, I see. How religiously apropos.

------
gruseom
Wow, this guy manages to profoundly offend more sensibilities than I would
have thought possible in a single article - yet without being gratuitous or
trollish. I am impressed.

Edit: there _is_ something gratuitously provocative about the headline, but
I'm assuming he didn't write that.

~~~
yters
What would newspapers do without provocative headlines?

~~~
gruseom
Publish good articles that speak for themselves?

~~~
ahoyhere
Ha.

Newspapers have been linkbaiting since their inception.

------
Tichy
I think of religions as instruction manuals for running societies, similar to
the McDonalds handbook for running a McDonalds joint. So it is not surprising
that different religions have different outcomes for societies.

Apart from the lack of data (the article is all just anecdotes, and I am also
skeptic because Africa is so big and diverse), I refuse to belive that
Christianity is the only way - there must be alternatives... And Christianity
might have it's downsides, too - if the author is right maybe it would bring
Africa out of an initial inertia, but at what cost for the long term?

~~~
zby
According to Rene Girard there is one thing distinguishing Christianity among
other religions - it is not sacrificial (that is not based on scapegoating) -
or even it is anti-sacrificial by revealing the scapegoat victim is innocent.
I am sure this is a too strong statement - as he could not analyze all
existing religions - but the material that he did cover (myths and rituals) is
very convincing for me.

Personally I am an agnostic or even an atheist - but the more I read of Girard
works the more I am convinced about the grand scale of the transformation
Christianity has done to our European minds and culture.

~~~
gruseom
Girard was at Stanford when I was there, and I took one of his courses. He was
charming and engaging. I remember once at some learned, oh-so-politically-
correct talk he got up and made a comment to the effect that "it isn't allowed
to criticize any culture at all, unless of course it's Western culture, and
that you can only mention in order to [and here he stood up and kicked the air
vigorously] KICK IT DOWN!" It was very refreshing - nobody except a star
professor with the equivalent of fuck-you money in academic reputation could
have gotten away with it.

That being said, with all the respect I have for Girard, I could never escape
the feeling that his analyses of Christianity were to a large extent thrice-
removed expressions of his own Catholicism. This doesn't invalidate everything
he says, but it made me skeptical of his grand theory.

~~~
zby
Ad. Girard and Catholicism - one interesting fact about that is that he
started as an atheist (I cannot verify that right now by googling - but I
remember it from somewhere) - only later he returned to religion.

------
metatronscube
Africa does not need religion, they need education.

------
known
I believe Africa needs Judaism.

Because

1\. Jews have predominantly high IQ

2\. Jews living anywhere in the world automatically become Citizens of Israel.

You are a product of your environment. --Clement Stone

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albertcardona
"atheist" : someone making a statement as ungrounded as that of the
worshippers.

"truly": content free.

"believe": wrong attitude. 'Believing' means shutting down one's analytical
abilities.

