
A Candle Loses Nothing by Lighting Another Candle - ingve
http://stephaniehurlburt.com/blog/2017/8/4/a-candle-loses-nothing-by-lighting-another-candle
======
rrdharan
I liked the analogy, though I'll confess I clicked the link expecting to see a
layman explanation of some interesting physics trivia.

~~~
vm
Ditto. I googled around and the gist of candle physics is this: -wick is lit
and then heat travels downward to the candle -immediately begins melting the
wax, which are hydrocarbons that fuel the fire. it's a simple combustion
reaction as they mix with oxygen in the high heat -capillary action sends
melted hydrocarbons up the wick, continuing the reaction

No mention of energy loss when lighting another candle... but really heat is
the byproduct of the combustion reaction, so lighting another candle is
harnessing the byproduct and doesn't interfering the reaction. The expression
is valid! :-P

[http://www.explainthatstuff.com/candles.html](http://www.explainthatstuff.com/candles.html)

[http://candles.org/candle-science/](http://candles.org/candle-science/)

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te_platt
I have a little brother and a brother in law who each went from bad financial
situations to making a lot of money in a relatively short time. By a lot I
mean much more than I make, and I do pretty well. I found it strange that I
was both happy for them and resentful at the same time. We got along well
before and after their success and I never felt like they became arrogant or
condescending. I think my resentment came from having to face up to my own
mistakes and weaknesses. Maybe there were reasons they were more successful
than I was; that it wasn't just luck. Thankfully the resentment has long since
faded.

The experience also made me think what would happen if you were at a party
with a large group of friends. God appears and gives everyone with a birthday
on an odd numbered day a million dollars then leaves with no explanation. How
happy for their friends are the people who didn't get anything? They are no
worse off but I can't help thinking they would be happy.

~~~
totalZero
Strictly from a selfish perspective, it's in your best interest to have rich
friends and family, rather than poor friends and family... even if your own
personal economic status is the same in both circumstances.

~~~
firethief
Unfortunately, you'll lose most of the newly rich friends

~~~
totalZero
I don't buy that. What makes you think so?

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Hnrobert42
I hate to admit it, but I fall into the resentment camp. I don't belittle
others, but I do envy their success. I know this attitude is
counterproductive, but that doesn't motivate me to change. I suppose this is
one of the many reasons the author is successful, and I am not.

~~~
justonepost
Oh the resentment is perfectly natural, but it's pretty easy to overcome. It's
like skipping the third beer or not buying the chocolate bar when you walk
past it.

~~~
ada1981
One of the best ways to heal this aspect of yourself is to actually expand the
feelings of resentment in a safe therapeutic setting (possibly with a
psychedelic or equivalent, i.e. Breathwork) and to get to the root of where
your sense of survival was threatened by another's success.

This is quite common in the current us school system where children are
routinely pitted against one another for the love of a proxy parent, aka
teacher.

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Shank
> He told me that that was pretty easy, boring work, but I guess good enough
> to pay the bills.

I've been told a lot in my side projects a similar thing: that the problem I
solved wasn't the "valuable" one to solve, and that other people were far
ahead in the "real" problem. It drives me absolutely insane. People diminish
the success of others just so their project can be "superior," despite when
it's actually far behind in the department that one excels at.

~~~
chillacy
People generally want to be high status, and status is relative, so a way of
propping your own status is to diminish the status of others. For some it's a
need, like a fish with one fin trying desperately to stay afloat. I've met a
handful of people like that, and I couldn't stand to hang around them very
long, but a few people get along with them quite well, I suppose by buying
into their version of reality.

~~~
ada1981
This is often diagnosed as narcicism. Two people sharing one persons over
inflated ego.

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avaer
The author rightfully acknowledges that "it is a decision that cost me some
short term profits early on".

But I also know people and companies that were so nice and generous that
people and customers learned to bleed them to figurative death. It's worth
noting there might be some survivorship bias here.

~~~
allemagne
>But I also know people and companies that were so nice and generous that
people and customers learned to bleed them to figurative death.

Are there examples an average person might've heard of?

~~~
avaer
Unfortunately these tend to be woven into tales of incompetence and failure,
not being too nice. That's the bias.

When you open your house to a haggard stranger (as my in-laws did) and they
turn out to be fugitive that robs them (as their guest did), they were praised
for their empathy but blamed for their naievity, and never made whole.

In the corporate sphere this story appears as an abrupt shutdown when
customers refuse to pay for the thing they have been accustomed to getting for
free. In open source it looks like a popular project being abandoned because
the maintainer has to grind elsewhere to pay the bills.

You generally won't read feel-good blog posts about these. Once again, that's
the bias.

~~~
allemagne
Thanks for the genuine response. I think I understand your point more clearly.

------
bjd2385
I've seen this in employers as well. I worked for a textile mill that was
technologically stuck in the Stone age, drilled you all day long for nearly
minimum wage. Then I got a break and they made me a line lead, a reward for
being such a good worker. But they found a way to take that position away when
they found out I was using the extra money to pay for college courses and
attend conferences. Needless to say, I quit, and I found a job at a
technology-oriented company. They supported it from day one, and I'd be happy
to stay with them and apply for more effective jobs.

------
topologie
One should never make another person feel bad for any self-admitted lack of
mathematical knowledge, ever.

I know a bit of math myself, and sometimes I do ask such questions as "have
you heard of 'math concept X' or ' physics concept Y'?", however, my reaction
to someone saying "I don't know what that is," is never a negative one. If
anything, it's the opposite of the one described in the article: I am filled
with excitement.

(In particular if I know that the other person would benefit from knowing
'math concept X.')

I love it whenever I get the chance to test myself and see if I can
share/explain something properly. If I can make it interesting. I am testing
to see if I understand it myself (kinda like using the Feynman Method in a
conversation?)

If I leave that conversation without the person having "won/learned" more than
me through the exchange, that's a failure on me, not them.

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ImSkeptical
The only part of this essay I didn't like was the bit about how good people:

"Ask me how they can help me. Give without expecting to receive if they're in
a position to do so."

If you're in my immediate family, or you're a close friend, I'd help you for
the sake of helping. If you're a random person I'm meeting, I don't think you
should feel entitled to my generosity.

------
voidhorse
This was a nice metaphor, but remember!--matches must light candles first:

"Oh, hard! that to fire others, the match itself must needs be wasting!" \--
_Moby Dick_ (Chapter 37, Sunset)

If you truly believe in something--be ready to lose a lot. One of those things
you may lose is freedom from the scope and bile of other's jealousy.

------
keithwhor
The issue is social signals. "Resentment" is perfectly natural, and is a
result of social status posturing. Party A views Party B as socially
competitive and the result is discomfort, an attempt to pull B back towards
the status quo or block them from succeeding, and of course, resentment.

I think the "lighting another candle" group are naturally wired more
pragmatically; they're confident enough (or otherwise differently programmed)
so that they don't feel socially competitive, and instead focus on growth.
They focus on complementary aspects of Party B's success and act within
reasonable social contexts to help propel Party B forward, understanding that
if they're able to play a role in doing so, they'll likely be rewarded (be it
financially, socially or otherwise).

I would posit that Silicon Valley can only exist because of a surplus of the
latter category; it's the underpinning of VC as an industry, and business
development as a branch of a corporation. In fact, it's downright dangerous
for an investor to be socially competitive with founders - if you're expecting
power law returns, you, by definition, have to invest in somebody that's
likely going to end up more individually successful than you are and it's
_your job_ to make sure they get there.

All that said, there's definitely grey area. I'm sure that the "pragmatic" /
"candle" group can still easily succumb to envy when the party they're
interfacing with _is quite literally competitive_ in a vertical they're
operating in. None of us are perfect, so I think creating a delineation is a
little dangerous. In-group vs. out-group thinking is only going to increase
the social resentment factors (we can see it in this thread already).

------
free_everybody
This was so beautiful! So glad to see it on Hacker News. I find myself in the
resentment camp too often, and I'm reminded that little can be accomplished by
pushing others down. We're all stronger when we form a web of support. Greater
heights can be reached.

------
throwaway13337
What she described reminded me of the people I knew while living in Seattle.

It was no surprise to me that it's where the author lives.

It's more of the tech community attitude there.

People are afraid of being judged as not as smart so put others down as a
defense. It's sad.

------
Scaevolus
Some people resent people that find success in modest startups. Selling useful
libraries to developers won't make you a billionaire, but it can create a
comfortable, steady revenue stream-- RAD game tools (in Seattle) has been
doing this for a long time, selling things like video codecs and profilers and
animation systems.

You could write a basic version of these tools in a few months, so it's easy
for some programmers to dismiss-- but companies can do basic math, and
understand that a $5,000 licensing fee is much cheaper than 3 months of
developer time!

~~~
noam87
I would love to hear more about these types of companies on HN.

------
CM30
I'm not really a resentful person myself, and am generally quite happy when
someone succeeds. That's pretty much why I post all those articles about
underrated channels and content creators, to bring more attention to them in
the hope that my opinion on the quality of their work will eventually become
the prevailing one and that they'll do well from their efforts.

However, I still have to admit I feel resentment in some cases. And that's
usually if:

1\. The person/creator/organisation didn't seemingly try very hard to succeed
and just coasted their way through life. The people running those prank
channels on YouTube and making thousands of dollars through low effort content
that purely became big because of a YouTube algorithm change... those are
people I might resent. Especially if they're doing better than people I
consider much better artists or creators. Same goes for those creating fake
news sites or what not.

2\. The person or organisation becomes selfish, throws everyone that helped
them under the bus and thinks they're some big shot that the world should
worship. This is surprisingly rare, with my experience being a lot of
successful people do tend to be pretty nice on a personality level (in
contrast to cliches about only sociopaths succeeding in life).

But for the most part, I'm happy when people succeed. Only makes sense, why
not be happy for anyone who succeeds through hard work and determination? It
makes you feel there's a certain amount of fairness in a world that can
sometimes seem very random.

------
markisus
I agree with the author that we should avoid feelings of resentment towards
people who are successful. However it bothers me that the author classifies
trace of a matrix as math trivia. I think sometimes people will categorize
their current knowledge as "the important stuff", and everything else is "just
trivia". This can be a dangerous trap that prevents personal improvement.

~~~
ezy
I get what you are saying, but my impression was that she wasn't dismissing
unknown knowledge as intrinsically trivia, just the use of it in a certain
context. When you use knowledge as a status marker, it becomes trivia --
because it isn't related to the application of such knowledge.

In the case laid out in the OP, it is a little subtle, but it's really about
status games, not the knowledge itself. Otherwise he wouldn't need to make
someone feel like shit for not knowing (or remembering) the term.

For example, I will readily admit I had to look it up because I don't use the
term often -- I remembered learning it, and vaguely that it was related to the
diagonal/determinant, but that was about it. That doesn't make it trivia, but
it doesn't make me an idiot either.

So, it's not trivia if one needs to use it, but that's not how the protagonist
in the essay used it. You can imagine how differently things would have gone
if he kept his judgement to himself, had sharing information as the real goal,
and simply explained what the trace was in the context of the conversation
without the putdown. It wouldn't be trivia in that context, because it would
be relevant to a useful conversation -- not a status cudgel.

------
user5994461
With javascript disabled, the page is displayed fine while it's loading, then
it all fades away into a blank page. It's disturbing.

~~~
danjoc
Same here :) Reader mode works nicely in FireFox in this case.

------
ageofwant
A candle loses half of the attention when it lits another, all candles know
that. Some just choose to revel in the doubling of the light.

------
lutorm
Long-term that's true ... but just like you can make a fire go out by putting
too much fuel on it too early, if you try to light too large a candle, the
candle might go out.

------
luord
Another option to avoid turning off the candle is not talking to people, or
wait for them to bring up the subject. I'm awkward so I often end up doing
this.

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Lagged2Death
_I 'm established now. I own a great company. I love my work and have happy
customers and supportive people in my life. So I can see straight through the
resentment for what it is..._

It's likely enough the author is observing something real in at least some
cases, but it's laughable to imagine that perspective and deep insights into
the minds of others (i.e., empathy) comes with success and comfort. All
evidence is that the opposite is true. It's not farfetched to suppose that he
sometimes reads something else (like frustration) as resentment.

~~~
wiredone
Although i'm not a big fan of pronoun police, the author is definitely a
"she". it's quite rude to assume otherwise.

------
ronilan
Also the candle burns out long before the legend ever does. Everybody knows
that's how it goes.

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danjoc
Seems like a humblebrag.

~~~
to_bpr
It definitely is. It's a more thoughtfully written "haters gonna hate" status
post.

That said, I do sympathize with her for the things she talks about having
experienced. I'm not even successful by HN's standards, just a CS grad working
their way up the tech ladder in some decent companies, but every time I've
experienced any level of success along the way I've always been met with petty
resentment from not just peers but some I, at times, thought of as friends.
Some people are just bizarre.

------
vostok
I know this isn't related to the article, but I'm also surprised that the
author had never worked with the trace given that they work in graphics, their
company is called Binomial, and their product is called Basis.

------
carsongross
Well, if is someone is paying you for your light...

------
justonepost
A fundamental underpinning of open source.

------
Kenji
If you fall into the resentment camp, you are exhibiting a defensive reaction
because you are in denial about your own flaws and that will be a hindrance to
your success.

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honestoHeminway
We need DRM on Candles..

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grogenaut
actually usually when I light 2 candles you have to tip one and so it burns
more to a side and then they burn extra hot for a second so you do actually
lose some.

what is the sound of one hand clapping?

~~~
aidenn0
If you tilt the candle to be lit, rather than the candle that is doing the
lighting, then the lighting candle does not have that problem.

~~~
grogenaut
shit I've been doing it wrong!

------
tj-teej
Technically it loses potential oxygen out of its possibly finite supply
required to stay alight.

But I like the sentiment :)

~~~
vvanders
and thus proving the point of the article.

~~~
stephengillie
Those who would be lit must endure burning.

------
throw2016
It's a tad unrealistic to expect positive interactions at all times. There is
a whole social behavior called 'negging'.

But it's always a good idea to cut off negativity where you have control.

