
Why Is It Hard to Make Friends Over 30? (2012) - brunoluiz
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/fashion/the-challenge-of-making-friends-as-an-adult.html
======
donttrack
When I visit my wifes family in (very) rural China, it kind of reminds me how
we used to socially interact back when I was young 20 years ago. People would
just pop by back then and sit in my couch for an hour or two, have a talk,
watch some TV and get a snack and tea for no particular reason other than they
just wanted to come by and it was okay. Everyone is always busy doing
something today and everything has to be planned and just popping by feels
weird and rude now..

Its funny how people had time to do something like standing in line at the
post office to pay their bills back then, but they still managed to spend and
hour or two to just be with a friend for no special reason. Maybe it was just
a necessity back then without the phones and all and nobody actually really
liked to spend time with friends and family. Seems like friendship has been
automated somehow today to make it more efficient. I bet that in 1000 years
long after human kind has disappeared, there will be friends sending each
other automated birthday greetings in one of those solar powered data centers
somewhere in Finland.

~~~
rland
Here in the states, it starts very young. A parent must schedule a playdate
beforehand, update it in the google calendar, drive the child 10-15 blocks to
their friends house. Parents can then venmo the other family for the time-cost
of the play-date.

To ensure maximum progress, play date activities must be intellectually
stimulating and structured based on how much they contribute to test scores
and college admissions down the line—this is known from statistical methods of
course. Video streaming smartphone applications enable parents to check in at
any time during the activity to ensure maximum growth.

As the children grow up, this does not stop of course. In fact, it becomes
less playful and more efficient. Time wasted during youth is punished brutally
in the holistic college admissions process.

By the time we've grown into adults, such impulses—such as spending time at a
friends' house for no reason at all—can be completely eliminated. This ensures
that more time in adulthood is dedicated to what truly matters, which is....
gosh I'm not sure. I can ponder that after I finish this next 'to do' on my
list!

~~~
nikmobi
> Parents can then venmo the other family for the time-cost of the play-date.

Wait, what? Parents are paying other parents for play dates these days?

~~~
alphakappa
I don't know if reimbursement happens, but kids will bring home a note with
the contact details of their playmate, and their parents will schedule it. The
whole calendar scheduling, driving, chaperoning etc are things that definitely
happens. It's not the age of 'go play with the kids down the street', at least
in the urban California I'm familiar with.

~~~
dingaling
What's also sad is that after schools most kids are bundled into a car and
driven off to their next appointment. There is little opportunity for
spontaneity in life for Car Kids. Like play-dates, everything is rostered.

There are a few who walk home from my son's school and it's great to see them
take 30 minutes to play or even just sit together throwing cut-grass in the
air.

~~~
drzaiusx11
My eldest (12yo) has several friends nearby (<2 miles, easy biking) and I
always try and encourage her to just go out and meet up with friends. Its like
a foreign concept to her though. I've finally had some recent success, but its
just so weird that I have to prod her into what amounts to going out to have
fun with friends.

Everything is too scheduled. Its hard to break out of the "if it isn't
schedule, it isn't happening" model when everyone in the family is so busy. We
try and encourage independence even in our youngest, but "free time" is at a
premium.

NOTE: my kids aren't "neurotypical" and have lots of appointments, etc adding
an extra layer of "busy"

------
spyckie2
I'm going to throw out a controversial statement: It's hard because adults
don't (and rightfully shouldn't) make friends a priority.

When you're young (<20), you don't have many responsibilities or long term
goals. But as soon as you get out of college, you have several multi-decade
goals to work towards:

1) asset accumulation

2) lifestyle development

3) family raising

From a pure risk management point of view, assets, lifstyle, and family are
much more stable in terms of extracting value from.

Friends, from a value added point of view, are a risky investment for a couple
of reasons. They require time and commitment to make and get value out of, but
have a high chance of no return. If you invest too much in friends, you're
pretty much guaranteed that something out of your control breaks the
friendship by 5-10 years, either moving away, diverging interests, or the most
likely, the friend decides to invest time in the assets, lifestyle, and family
instead of your friendship.

There's a vicious circle (opposite of virtuous cycle) in this. As a society,
if more people focus on family, assets, and lifestyle because they are less
risky, there's less people willing to commit to being a friend available for
those that want to focus on friendships, and eventually friendship by the age
of 30 become extinct except in rare cases where special environments sustain
them.

To summarize, it's a systemic issue where even if you wanted to make friends,
it's not worth it as an adult to do so.

~~~
zasz
Friendship is worth it. Loneliness is a serious threat to your health. It
keeps your cortisol levels elevated. The effect on your health is comparable
to a bad smoking habit. According to this study, mortality goes up by at least
26%:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25910392](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25910392)

Anyway, what's the point of having a lot of assets if you don't enjoy your
life at the end?

~~~
hardwaresofton
Despite research to support that I think the problem might lie in that
friendship may not _seem_ worth it. Societies can emphasize individual
independence, and technology can amplify it in real terms, making human
interaction not necessarily where it once was. Why have lots of friends when
so much of the immediately-obvious utility can be bridged by some other
services?

Where neighbors used to possibly serve as an extension to your resources (a
large ladder, sugar, someone to sign a package for you maybe), these days
solutions (often technological) have sprung up to reduce the necessity of
working together (rent-a-tool shops/sites, ease of transportation,
configurable delivery).

Of course, the negative effects of restricted social networks are being felt
now in communities (poor cohesion) and individually (mental health issues)...
Tech helps sometimes (connecting people who might feel isolated in their
immediate surroundings) and can hurt a lot of the time as well.

~~~
zasz
Yes, I think you're absolutely right. It's a combination of capitalism and bad
urban planning (having to hop in a car to see people is bad for socializing
since people are so lazy).

------
fardo
I think the elephant in the room for making new friends over 30, is stagnation
in one's daily routine caused by one's job.

I don't think anything changed dramatically in the last 60 or so years on this
point, even with the development of social media; by the time you're 30,
you're basically done making friends.

The article glossed over it, but in your childhood and teens, you're
surrounded by a new group of people every 5 or so years, and just through
sheer quantity, you're likely to make at least a few friends. Throw on team
sports, extracurriculars, clubs, and the ease of introductions in a school
environment, and it's almost impossible not to make a few friends all the way
into your late 20s.

Somewhere around when you turn 25 or so, though, without substantial effort,
things stabilize. If you were going to leave your home, you probably did, and
you're settled in. You and your old friends start to marry and have kids, and
both of these occupy your free time (and theirs). You may have bought a house
or found a job you want to settle into for a while, with plans to stick around
for several years.

For at least 8 hours of your day, you are at work, interacting with people in
an environment toxic for creating trusting friendships (You're competing for
the same roles, titles, bonuses, etc.), and worse, these people you're
competing with are almost always the exact same people, so if you're not
really friends with any of them immediately, that's basically never going to
change.

With the remaining time in your evenings, you'll also settle into a routine.
You won't be playing sports anymore, and if you have hobbies, you'll generally
be doing them with the same small consistent set of people in your area,
assuming you do them with others at all.

So, in short, if your 8-hour workday isn't a time to make friends, and you're
not interacting with people in a way that leads to making friends in your
8-hour evenings, when the hell do you expect to be making your friends over
30, during your 8-hours asleep?

~~~
gerbilly
> stagnation in one's daily routine caused by one's job.

Definitely this.

We let work take way too much time from our lives.

If you count commuting, the _minimum_ 8 hours at work (more like minimum 10)
then work can eat up to 12 hrs/day.

On top of that us 'knowledge workers' carry our work around in our heads all
the time.

It's not as though after 8hrs we just put the wrench down and go home, no the
ongoing problems of work follow us around and even toss and turn us in our
dreams sometimes.

To me this is unacceptable.

The way that we employ our working hours is a waste of time[1] on a colossal
scale, and for little benefit to humanity most of the time.

[1] Literally the finite precious time we each have on earth.

~~~
ende
So when do we go on strike?

~~~
Cthulhu_
No need, the pay for software development is more than enough (like, 3-4x more
than enough). The main problems are excess housing prices (so that income is
not enough), and a combination of ambition / competitiveness / fear of missing
out / fear of running behind.

~~~
pc86
Have you ever noticed how nobody complains about "excess housing prices" when
they can easily afford it and the populations that have been living there for
decades can't?

------
steve19
I have made plenty of friends after the age of 30. The problem is that is is
hard work. New friendships consume more time than old friends.

The ratio of people actively befriending me, is lower than people I befriend.
Maybe 3:1 Making me think most people don't put much effort into making
friends.

My advice would be:

1\. Networking is not making friends. If you want to leverage someone, it's a
business relationship not a friendship.

2\. People who befriend you might not be the kind of person you would choose
to be your friend, but they obviously like you enough to make an effort so
give them a chance and reciprocate. People probably try to befriend you but
you don't even notice.

3\. Let bad or superficial friendships go and concentrate on making good ones.
I have loads of really close friends, but keep my Facebook friend count
(relatively) low.

4\. If a friend is having a problem, help them. This is how you move past the
superficial friendship. Prove you are worthy of being a friend.

5\. Never screw a friend over. See rule #1. If you intend to play a zero sum
game with a friend, be willing to lose that friend. (I do business with good
friends, but only if I know I will never be in a position to have to choose
between my wealth/happiness and theirs). Also always be honest. Friendship
requires trust.

6\. Make an effort. Ask people out for a drink or a coffee. Invite them over
for dinner. It's hugely time consuming. This week I am running out of time
with friends wanting to hang out and friends who need help. But it's worth it.

7\. Join clubs, organizations and/or religious institutions. Not just one.
Friends of mine had good success with dance classes.

8\. One close friend is worth hundreds of superficial friendships.

~~~
distant_hat
I would disagree with point 8. I tend to go for superficial friendships over
close ones (by choice), and it works out to be a better deal. One thing is
that you get a lot more diverse set of friends when you are not going that
deep. Secondly, deep friendships kind of lock you in, and I do not like that.
Thirdly, having a large set of friends, exposes you to more interesting
opportunities and new friends that having a few close friends doesn't.
Moreover, a lot of pathologies like jealousies etc don't show up with casual
friends. They often come up in ugly ways with close ones.

~~~
badpun
> superficial friendships

In Polish, there are different two words for friends (i.e. people who care for
you, who would give you ex. a big loan or a kidney) and for people who you
just like to hang out with, because it's fun and convenient for both of you at
the time. I feel it's more blurred in English, with both of them being called
friends.

------
lkrubner
I’ve recently started throwing a monthly dinner party and I invite a diverse
group that pulls in people from work and politics and theater and other places
I’ve lived. I’ve found this is a good way to build a stable social group,
especially here in New York, where people are so busy the once-a-month
structure is useful, the dinner becomes a not too often but still recurring
event. Once a month is about the right frequency.

I recall that my parents used to have dinner parties all the time, out in the
suburbs during the 1970s/1980s and their friends also had dinner parties.
There was a culture of dinner parties among adults back then. For some reason
it died out. But I think the idea, and the habit, is a useful one.

------
molticrystal
Discussed here with 700+ comments in February:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16424954](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16424954)

~~~
zerostar07
Those threads made an interesting read. A general feeling i got is that random
interactions, or interactions loosely based on common interests (like sports)
are becoming less successful at making friends, because everyone is more
guarded now, but also because people have an expectation of having a more
'tailored' matching processes. So their random interactions often end up
frustrating.

Interestingly, people who belong to a subculture report success - gay people
have it better, but also swingers, another lifestyle (I would add to that the
nudists as a very friend-seeking community). Online gaming seems to be a good
venue for having that initial "match" of a common interest, as well as meetup
groups. While i suspect most people find friends at work, it appears to be an
unsatisfactory way for many to make lasting relationships.

So, it appears that there is a genuine need here that can be filled by
"something that looks a bit like dating". Maybe facebook should consider
rolling out a 'friend finder' along with their dating feature. Nevertheless,
it seems to have become less of a taboo to admit that people can't find
friends, and it seems there is space here for social apps to cover.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" Maybe facebook should consider rolling out a 'friend finder' along with
their dating feature."_

Craigslist used to have a "strictly platonic" section in their personals, but
it's gone now along with the rest of their personals.

------
raz32dust
In Germany, I witnessed a multi-family household. A married couple bought the
house. Then they had kids, but they divorced amicably yet continued to live in
the same house. Then each of them found a new partner who also started living
in the same house. Now they are like friends, with 3 couples living together,
and 5 kids in the house. It's hard for me to imagine living like that, the
stress that would take, but they seem to be happy with the arrangement and
they hang out together and take care of each other's kids. That might be a
better model for society in the future. Not necessarily marrying, but living
in a close community with your friends. It is interesting to think about the
logistics and social changes that need to happen for this to work, though.

~~~
legostormtroopr
But where did the third couple come from? Is this a riddle?

~~~
tedunangst
When two couples like each very much...

~~~
raz32dust
Haha yea I meant 2 couples. Can't seem to edit now.

------
your-nanny
For a lot of people in a lot of places not called the bay area, people move to
a town and find themselves a church. The church organizes provides all kinds
of opportunities to socialize and make friends in a non competitive in-group
sort of way. I'm not religious, and think that organizing life around church
can promote certain myopic attitudes, but I can see how this kind of access to
an egalitarian community of worship can really have benefits

~~~
montecarl
I am not religious, but regularly attend my wife's church. I agree with this.
Church really does provide a great community. I'm very curious about what a
secular alternative to church would even look like. I get to meet people of
all ages from all kinds of backgrounds every week. I have made friends of all
ages (at least one in 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s). These aren't
just people I know, but people that I could call, if needed, and they would
help me. People who would gladly come over to my house for dinner. I work from
home, and would have little chance to meet new people if it wasn't for church.
Its been quite a surprised to me, as an atheist in his 30s that church would
become an important part of my life!

~~~
Regardsyjc
There are churches for atheists. The religious cultural beliefs of a welcome
opening community are a huge factor for church but as someone else has
mentioned, I think regular planned meetings are also a key factor.

I started hosting board games once a month and it made it a lot easier to
maintain and grow friendships for everyone. So I would say any group for any
activity that meets regularly, whether for video games, books, athletics, etc
are also good places to foster friendship.

~~~
Cthulhu_
I don't like that idea, or the whole atheism movement - it's like they turned
a religion out of not believing, reading Dawkins instead of the bible.

What do those churches do / talk about anyway? If it's people going on about
why / how they don't believe, it's not for me. Or is it more like a humanistic
church?

~~~
gehwartzen
Can't speak for OP but I too attend my wife's church pretty frequently. I'm
probably more agnostic than an atheist but have found her UU (Unitarian
Universalist) church pretty welcoming and found a ton of like minded folks
there. I wouldn't call it an atheist church but lots of self described atheist
attend.

The basic tenants or '6 principles' that the church holds are all things I
subscribe to in my personal beliefs anyway (basically respect other people)
and most of the sermons are fairy interesting and cover lots of different
religions, philosophies, and ideas (bonus: the whole thing wraps up in under
an hour!). There are tons of smaller groups that meet outside of regular
services to discuss everything from Christianity to Hinduism as well as more
general philosophy and social work. As well as things such as neighborhood
groups, parenting groups, gardening groups.

------
squiggleblaz
I haven't read the article. My reply is not a response to the article, but
intended for an audience who might think their life is looking all downhill
from here.

In my late 20s my life looked like downhill. I had had friends but I had no
friends at that point. I was single and alone. I was depressed and anxious.
The only good thing I had going for me was that I had a job.

Just before I turned 30 I was fortunate to come across a video on youtube
which pointed out that there were various quite impressive personages who were
at 30 failures and only became the impressive persons after that date. I don't
have to become a genius, but it's nice to know that our society's rich
privilege that favors young people says nothing about human nature. Life can
get better from any starting point, and there's nothing wrong with ageing.

And then I joined a community where I was able to find friends. (In my case,
it's the Esperanto community.) Now I'm engaged to someone I met through the
community (though she's not an Esperantist) and my own personal community of
friends has expanded even further. Now I've got the opposite problem I used to
have - I have so many friends I struggle to balance them all (and my own need
to have some empty time - perhaps higher than average because I became so
accustomed to being alone). It happened in only a few short years (today I'm
almost 34, but it feels like I've got another life). My fiancee regards me as
an optimist - anyone who knew me five years ago would be shocked.

And all this is to say nothing about the changes I've witnessed in my parents'
lives in the same period.

It might be harder for humans to get friends after 30 but you don't need to
think "I'm a friendless blahblah year old, what hope is there for me?".

~~~
simsla
As someone who's in the same boat (Late twenties. Moved to a country where I
don't know anyone. "Discovered" that most people already have friends, and
they don't materialise spontaneously as they used to at uni.), your comment
resonates with me.

What do you think is required to bond at these things? I've done a couple of
after-work activities in an attempt to socialise, but I haven't struck gold
yet. (At cooking class, people seem more interested in catching their train,
than socialising afterwards.)

It's occurred to me that any out of hours activity just has far less social
exposure than what I'm used to. For example, at school you'd sit next to
someone for 8 hours a day. To get the same kind of exposure from a weekly 1 or
2-hour class would take 1 or two months!

I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about which aspects helped bridge this
in your case. A deep, shared interest in Esperanto? Luck? Nothing in
particular?

~~~
annywhey
The advice that's stuck in my head for building up a social group is: Schedule
an event of your own choosing. Advertise it when you go to other events.
Something that is easy to get to, undemanding, and not costly or highly
exclusive(e.g. board game night, Wednesday night coffee at Starbucks). Let
people you meet and want to be friends with know about it. Hold the event.
Nobody shows up the first time - that's fine. And some crowds will never be
receptive but you can't tell them what's good for them. Just keep holding it
regularly on a strict schedule and letting folks know and eventually your
circle appears. Then you can repeat this process, if you want, to filter the
group down. It can swing quickly between empty and full calendar since time is
actually relatively scarce.

~~~
baby
^ this. People always appreciate when you invite them, and then they might
decide to invite you to other stuff later (even if they don't show up to your
thing). A decade ago, I used to organize "volleyball" afternoons. I hate
volleyball, but I would just do it and invite anyone I could. Made a lot of
friends like this :) 5 year later (and earlier) I would organize drinks every
Wednesday along the docks of Bordeaux during the summer and I would invite all
the people I could. What started as a few people became dozens and dozens of
people.

------
LogicX
Relevant: [https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/10-types-odd-friendships-
your...](https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/10-types-odd-friendships-youre-
probably-part.html)

When I read that two weeks ago, I reached out to an acquaintence who I wished
to 'move up' the friend tier structure, because he (and his wife) fit into the
Healthy & Enjoyable quandrant. Last weekend they came over to see an air show.
Today they invited my wife and I out on their boat. We all had an amazing
time.

We're all in our 30s. It's tough. But I like to idea of focusing on the ones
which can make an impact, and are healthy and make you happy having them as
friends. I'm an advocate for fewer, closer friendships.

~~~
donttrack
I find it interesting that we are trying to quantify friendship and understand
it with distribution charts like in that blog post. Like it is some kind of
lost art.

------
marcofloriano
In my case marriage was the great motivator for leaving frendiship and not
having new friends. My old friends who are single now, still have good
friendship, even after 30. I guess my best friend is my wife now.

~~~
louprado
From casual observation it appears that spouses who aren't introduced by
mutual friends rarely like their spouse's friends. Friendships take time, are
valued because of shared past experiences, and require a certain personality
alignment to be sustained.

Also when spouses go and spend time with the other spouse's friends, its
challenging to simultaneously catch-up with their old friends while also
trying to include their new spouse in the conversation.

Some married couples work through this but others just privately and
repeatedly criticize each other's friends so eventually they are left with
only one friend -- their spouse.

~~~
amyjess
It's for exactly this reason that I find being friends with married couples to
be draining unless I knew them both before they got together.

You can't just be friends with one of them. You can't just go and hang out
with one person without their spouse coming along. If you tell them their
spouse isn't invited, they'll get offended. If you don't tell them, you can
expect the spouse to tag along... and if their spouse gets tired and wants to
leave early, they're both just going to cut out right then and there (I had
one friend who would just up and leave the bar with his wife whenever she got
tired without even giving me a chance to finish my drink and tab out so we
could leave together... every time, it felt like a slap in the face).

Sometimes, even if I like their spouse, I just want to hang out with a friend
one-on-one. And then there are people who I like but whose spouses I can't
stand.

------
sametmax
It's not. I'm still making new friends regularly. It's not about the age. It's
about your lifestyle and your desire to make friends.

It just happens that a lot of people, around 30, prioritize some life styles
that makes you less social. Also, they are trying to make something out of
what they have right now, instead of getting something new.

------
miqkt
Having just turned 31 recently, this read hits hard with my own experiences.
From time to time I worry I'll end up languishing in old age due to loneliness
without a network of supportive friends.

Some seem to reiterate the importance of time investment into the search for
new friends. I agree with this. The more you put yourself out there, the odds
would hopefully be more in your favour. However, the guarantee of the outcome
isn't there. One could spend hours, days, months joining various hobby and
interest groups with such an agenda and still end up with nothing.

It's almost like after a certain age, new friendships become more
incentivised. The friendship itself only exists because it can be rationalised
with mutual benefits.

~~~
objplant
I would suggest not to join a hobby, interest group etc. with an agenda of
making friends. I think such a plan might create some unnecessary mental
pressure on one's behaviour. On the other hand if you join a group with a
topic that really interests you, chances are you'll be sorrounded with at
least some like-minded people. And then, if you casually fall into a
conversation with someone, then you grab the opportunity for making an
acquaintance. And that person might some day turn into a friend.

------
tarkin2
Most of the 20s social activities are there to find mates. In our 30s an
increasing number no longer need to do this, and another number don't have the
time anyway due to work or family.

In our 20s we still have our school friends, and they introduce us to their
friends. We study and make friends. They introduce us to their friends.
There's always a few parties. I'm those parties mostly everyone is looking for
a boyfriend or girlfriend. We're in the same boat. We have common aims.

In our 30s, those school friends have largely disappeared. We stop studying
and stop meeting fellow students. The parties dry up: more and more of those
people now have found someone and find no need to "party".

You have your workplace. But if you're a manager your friends are often brown-
nosing. And if you're not, office or company politics may interfere. And those
left may need to rush back to look after their kids anyway.

The best thing I've found is volunteering. You meet new people, you form new
friendships, you learn new skills, you help your community, your week now
probably involves at least a little more exercise.

------
monksy
Why is it hard to make friends?

\----

Answer: You don't put effort into doing that.

~~~
asdsa5325
But if you _do_ put in effort, it's still hard

~~~
monksy
When's the last time you invited someone out to lunch?

When's the last time you invited people out for drinks or to your place?

When's the last time you threw a party?

That's literally how hard it is. Do stuff with people.

~~~
your-nanny
It's hard because they don't have the time either. Kids, soccer practice, gym,
and so on.

For a lot of people in a lot of places not called the bay area, people move to
a town and find themselves a church. The church organizes provides all kinds
of opportunities to socialize and make friends in a non competitive in-group
sort of way. I'm not religious, and think that organizing life around church
can promote certain myopic attitudes, but I can see how this kind of access to
an egalitarian community of worship can really have benefits

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>I can see how this kind of access to an egalitarian community of worship /

Lol, you can tell you're not a churchgoer ... /jk (but not entirely)

~~~
your-nanny
You are correct, but I wonder what about the quoted text made you laugh

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Christians are still sinful, prone to pride and selfishness, egalitarianism is
a central part of Christian doctrine but choosing to follow Jesus is a process
... and I have a weird sense of humour.

------
jackcosgrove
Because we have fewer and fewer shared experiences as our lives diverge and
specialize. I'll go out on a limb and say that there's no such thing as a
fixed personal identity that is some ineffable quality of everyone. Presumably
people with similar identities could bond at any time of their lives, but I
haven't found that to be the case. You are what you do and think, and people
keep changing. As society becomes more complex with more unique niches, and
also becomes less colocated, the chances that you find someone in person with
similar experiences keeps declining. Sure you can go online but we all know
that's not the same.

------
delbel
it isn't hard at all practically everyone I meet becomes a friend. How much
time do I have to dedicate to friendship? Practically none, but that doesn't
stop them from coming over --sometimes to much. Just don't be so judgmental.
There's also this toxic ideology that unfortunately has swept the society that
promotes defeatism, victimhoodization, promoting sociopaths ways of judging
people, locking in your thinking through group think/wrong think. This
ideology use to be a good value in our society before it was hijcked, it
promoted peace and anti-war, individual liberties, as long as you didn't hurt
another person. Now its been hijacked by very evil people and it has entrapped
people into defeating themselves. Once you free yourself from this toxic way
of thinking, the world is everything that you make good of it. Everyone wants
to join you and make it more wonderful. It is truly the greatest time to live
and have friends.

~~~
meesterdude
How do you deal with making plans with someone, only to be stood up?

~~~
delbel
this happens a lot with me, and it annoys me. First I try to establish if it
just a good reason that I don't know about. 99% of the time, this is the
reason. They either forgot, had an emergency, or got to busy. Second, I
consider the other possibility that they intentionally did this. If this is
the case, they are trying to show a "power move" or superiority over you, aka
"I am better then you and this is my power I ditched you" When you fully think
it out, these people are actually powerless and sad. They lack self confidence
in themselves, they lack power over themselves, so much that they have to
artificially make up scenarios where they feel empowered. This is basically
the definition of a sociopath. So immediately you don't want to be friends
when them once you realize this. Also, you want to check critically to see if
you have any of this type of thinking inside of you and move to get rid of it.
So also, this happens a lot in business. Sometimes you have to deal with it. I
had very prompent lawyer stood me up 3 times. Eventually, somehow, she wanted
me to do something. We were to meet and I give her access to a conference she
wanted to go to. I became ill and couldn't make it, I called ahead. Apparently
she didn't get my message and got stuck at the conference waiting for me
Eventually they let her in when she namedropped me. It was totally
unintential, but basically I mirrored what she did to me back to her. Long
story short we became friends as far as professional. I use mirroring a lot in
business like this -- if you respond to my email in 3 days, I wait 3 days. If
you call only during business hours, I make sure I do the same. If you return
my calls immediately, I do the same. So but that's business. In friendship,
consider yourself lucky you dodged a bullet. One way to test if they honestly
forgot or whatever circumstances is to never bring it up or bring it up in a
way where you establish if you can tell by their body language that they got
pleasure by ditching you. An honest person will feel bad about it. A dishonest
person will feel powerful and haply spiteful. I'm not the best at articulating
all of this, you will need to think this out for yourself. You have to take
their power away by not getting upset. Its the same when somebody is bullying
you and you laugh at their jokes with them, they get upset and mad. If they
are a good person, it goes away after a while perhaps you become great
friends. Some people do this as a way of protecting themselves from risk also,
its about self confidence. Again, our society is broken with this toxic
ideaology. Right now, bad things happen to good people, and good things happen
to bad people. Its changing, but right now sociopaths are being rewarded and
honest people aren't. Just don't give them the power over you to make you
upset and they go away.

~~~
meesterdude
Thanks for this! I could have used a few return entries to break it up, but
otherwise I very much appreciate the response. Much of what you said echos
some of my observations.

I too find myself mirroring - if they are a verbose writer, I'll be verbose;
if they're short I'll be short.

------
downandout
From the article:

 _" Editor’s note: This article first ran on July 13, 2012, but we’re running
it again because the topic is timeless."_

I see this kind of thing happening more and more. Looking at the tags on the
page, it bears a modified date of 2018-02-09T19:25:10-05:00. This is
important, because they are telling Google that the content has been updated,
when it hasn't. But they'll get more traffic and revenue now from an old
article by lying to Google.

You see this happening on TV now too. In a technique I call "DVR Fraud," shows
like 60 Minutes, which are made up of a few 15-30 minute segments per episode,
are mixing and matching segments from old shows and creating "new" episodes
with nothing new in them except for brief commentary explaining "as we first
showed you in 20XX...". They are marked as "new" in the program guide, and if
you have set your DVR to record only new episodes of that show, it will record
this rehashed content.

TV networks and websites are abusing automated services and tools like Google
and your DVR to generate new revenue from old, rehashed content. I despise
regulation, but I think somebody needs to take a look at least at the DVR
Fraud issue. It is becoming a large-scale fraud, as it is being used to
artificially inflate Nielsen ratings, and likely siphon millions of ad dollars
based upon viewership that would never have watched the content had it been
properly labeled as a rerun.

~~~
chrisseaton
> DVR Fraud

> a significant problem

This is way over-dramatic for re-runs of TV shows. I can't believe you think
this is a problem so grave that it needs state intervention!

~~~
downandout
I basically only watch TV from my DVR. So yes, for me, having to sift through
the recorded "new" episodes only to think "oh I remember this one" is
annoying. Worse, they are doing it on purpose to artificially inflate their
ratings and ad revenue.

~~~
nitrogen
"Clip show" episodes have been a cheap trick used by TV fiction for ages. Now
they are doing it on the news? I guess it was inevitable that someone would
eventually put the concepts together.

~~~
scarface74
60 minutes has always had a "season" and showed reruns during the summer.

------
maym86
Put effort into a group activity or club that isn't work and you'll make
friends. Regularly meeting the same people eventually turns into friendship.

~~~
Cthulhu_
I've had this over time with work, school, etc; I get along great with people,
but the moment I move on to another school or another job or whatever, I lose
contact.

I'm not the type to reach out to people or offer to hang out, and given I
don't get similar invitations, I guess others aren't like that OR there's an
air about me that indicates I wouldn't appreciate it. Which is probably not
wrong, I mean my infrequent meetups with my childhood friend are awkward at
best, we watch a movie and have a chat or something but that's it.

------
imd23
I'm 25 and it hard as f __*.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
The line isn't "your thirties."

The line is when you graduate college.

The fact is school is the biggest reason why we make so many friends.
Different classes, different people, from grade school to college. Food is
taken care of by adults or the dining hall. parents pay the bills or it's
covered by your student loan.

Then you graduate. Now you must: spend time to cook, work to pay bills, and if
you have an SO/kids, the rest of your time goes there. That's literally it.

~~~
amyjess
> The line isn't "your thirties."

> The line is when you graduate college.

I agree with this, but with one caveat: it's a slow process, and it takes
years to fully take effect.

The process of your friend groups disintegrating does indeed begin with your
college graduation, but it takes so long for the effects to be really felt
that a lot of people don't realize their friend groups have disintegrated
until around the time they hit 30.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
Yes for sure, it isn't sudden. I think right after college people "settle
down" at different times. Some marry early, some later. Marriage and kids are
huge time sinks. By 30 many are married. The more that are married means less
time for friends, and slowly those "groups" wither away to the most important.

------
eecsninja
People go their separate ways in their 20s. There is less of the shared
struggle that characterized college camaraderie.

It also becomes harder to line up schedules to keep in touch with old friends.
Back in college, at least everyone was on the same academic calendar.

------
bwang29
Is it socially awkward to admit that one has no friend after 30?

~~~
meesterdude
Yes - but that doesn't make it bad, nor something to identify with. I myself
would rather be alone than around the wrong people

------
overcast
Just about to turn 38, and it's certainly true that after college, friends
ramp down significantly. You'll stay in touch with a handful maybe if you're
lucky. If you're a male, that number is usually much smaller than a female. My
suggestion, find a hobby, a side venture, whatever it is, that integrates you
into the local social scene. A few years ago I started doing food/cocktail
promotion and the amount of social experiences I've had since then has
skyrocketed, and yes some _actual_ friends have come of it. They may not be
childhood close friends level, but we're all on the same page. Everyone knows
it's hard, and that's why we get together.

------
mwfunk
Part of it’s obviously the changing social outlets and life situations as we
get older, but IMO the biggest reason is that social interaction for its own
sake loses a lot of its luster as people get older. Friendship becomes more
focused and personal, alone time becomes much scarcer and more precious, and
everyone’s just way less bored all the time.

The threat of boredom is always a huge motivator for people to hang out and
try not to be bored together. As people get older, that ceases to be a social
motivator for many/most people. They may still have a bunch of other reasons
for wanting to socialize, but boredom’s not one of them.

------
protomok
I can definitely resonate with this line: "Once people start coupling up, the
challenges only increase. Making friends with other couples “is like
matchmaking for two,” said Kara Baskin, a journalist who works in Boston."

From experience, finding new couple friends appears to be impossible. The
difficulty is even quantifiable. For example, to make a friend person A must
like person B, and vice versa, or expressed as a permutation: P(2,2)=2 units
of difficulty.

But to make a couple friend the difficulty increases to P(4,2)=12...a 6x
increase :(

Has anyone had success finding couple friends?

------
saxatrumpet
>Basically, she suggests, this is because people have an internal alarm clock
that goes off at big life events, like turning 30.

I disagree with this notion that adults at the age of 30 shift their focus to
children when the average age of first time mothers has steadily risen to 26.3
years old since 1970.

I feel like the general points made in this article apply more to 35-40 year
olds as I know there are plenty of people in their early 30's still focused on
growing their social circles without settling down with a family yet.

------
goshx
This article actually makes me feel better for living in the US for almost a
decade, now in my mid 30’s, having less real friends here than fingers in my
left hand.

------
starkruzr
Living in Washington, DC with a lot of other people who are over the age of 30
and still single, it's not as hard as I anticipated it would be, actually. The
key is to have reasons to bring people together. I'm in a karaoke club, and a
programming meetup, and several other things, and my social life is pretty
healthy as a result.

With parenthood in the mix, you have to get really aggressive about
scheduling, but it's still not impossible.

------
rezoner
I find it easier to make meaningful relations now that I am past 30. Usually
these start with doing something that really matters together and on top of
that I have way better access to people who match my intelectual profile.
Maybe it's simply because I am a person who goes out looking for good things
to happen not wait for them to come.

------
edem
This post from Wait But Why is relevant I think:
[https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/10-types-odd-friendships-
your...](https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/10-types-odd-friendships-youre-
probably-part.html)

------
rgrieselhuber
Anecdotally, a lot of men in my circle complain that their wives won't let
them spend time with other men, outside of family gatherings. Definitely not
healthy, definitely needs to be remedied.

~~~
Cthulhu_
That really ties in with another post I read a while ago - the running gags at
weddings and such where the wife is referred to as "the ol' ball and chain",
where the man's life is basically over and he's emasculated for life by the
wife.

I mean all of those 'jokes' make it sound like a really unhealthy and abusive
relationship. No wonder people don't get married as much anymore.

~~~
vorhuts
It's not really a joke, statistically.

------
agumonkey
biology ? after teen years your brain's primary focus will be sexual bonding
and then children

------
amyjess
I'm 33, and this hits pretty hard.

Ever since I graduated college, I've watched my circle of friends dwindle over
the years, as all of us have busy lives and don't have much room for
socialization, especially not when factoring in each other's schedules.

I stopped talking to one of the few close friends I had left after he married
an extremist tradcon and started posting a constant stream of hate. It's
really disheartening to watch a guy who used to be one of the most
compassionate people I know post memes with slurs in them (including slurs
against a group I'm part of), videos by Neo-Nazis, rants about how Jimmy
Kimmel's done deserves to die, etc. He went from being like a brother to me to
being someone I never want to talk to again. And even before he completely
jumped down the alt-right rabbit hole, as soon as he started dating her, I
would never see him without her ever again. It was draining inviting him to
hang out places and him always bringing his then-girlfriend who I hated with
him every single time. Even when I went to buy him expensive scotch at a bar
to congratulate him on his engagement (because even though I hate her guts, I
was still happy for him that he found someone), she decided to tag along
(seriously, that was supposed to be a private moment between me and him)... I
really regret wasting that money on scotch for both of them given what he's
turned into.

In the last month, I have set foot of my house to socialize exactly once, and
that was for a friend's birthday party... so that's not going to happen again
for another year.

Facebook has been a godsend, because it's basically the only way I talk to
most people anymore. Through Facebook, I can stay in touch with a bunch of
people who I wouldn't have the opportunity to see in real life. I have a ton
of friends I get along with really well but for various reasons none of us are
able to get together in real life, so Facebook it is.

It doesn't help that I have no interest in getting married or having children.
In fact, the idea of either sickens me. So as everybody else is pairing off to
get married or spending 99% of their free time taking care of kids, I'm stuck
by myself. I just wish I had more single (and preferably asexual) friends to
hang with.

I actively hate being in my 30s. I wish I was in college again, because I
really miss the vibrant social life I had back then.

~~~
exit
_> I wish I was in college again, because I really miss the vibrant social
life I had back then._

i've found it much easier to maintain a "vibrant social life" in a city. do
you live in the suburbs, or somewhere even less densely populated?

~~~
amyjess
I live in the suburbs, and I strongly prefer it here. Cities are cramped,
noisy, dirty, and crime-riddled. I love having lots of space, and I'd honestly
rather kill myself than live in an apartment ever again. And the last time I
even _worked_ in the city (2014), I was subject to constant street harassment
by homeless people begging for money and getting angry when I didn't pay them,
and I was terrified I was going to get raped and killed some day.

If not having a vibrant social life is the price I pay for living in a place
that doesn't make me want to kill myself, then I'll go ahead and pay that
price. I miss having a vibrant social life, but I'd take not having one over
not living in the burbs.

~~~
exit
_> Cities are cramped, noisy, dirty, and crime-riddled._

okay, the disconnect here may be that i live in europe, and you live in ...i'd
guess north america?

 _> It doesn't help that I have no interest in getting married or having
children. In fact, the idea of either sickens me. So as everybody else is
pairing off to get married or spending 99% of their free time taking care of
kids, I'm stuck by myself. I just wish I had more single (and preferably
asexual) friends to hang with._

suburbs are indeed optimised for numerous things you're not up for; this is a
difficult problem to solve.

 _> If not having a vibrant social life is the price I pay for living in a
place that doesn't make me want to kill myself, then I'll go ahead and pay
that price._

things can eat away at you quietly. not having a vibrant social life may not
confrontationally make you want to kill yourself, the way the other serious
issues you've mentioned do, but it can erode moral and have cascading negative
effects on your mental health.

we aren't all built the same though, so ymmv.

------
poisonarena
this is something I see once a month on HN but is always relevant to me

------
LifeLiverTransp
Its usually the way we train ourselves to behave in work environments.
Spontanity only gets you into trouble. Nobody can be really trusted,
everything better be documented. Work kills the ability to make friends,
because you see how all those former "friends" crawl over each other to
backstab one another and get to the top of the pile.

~~~
nocman
Wow, I'm glad I don't work where a bunch of folks here evidently work. I've
make plenty of friends at work and I don't see a lot of backstabbing and
jockeying for positions.

I simply would not stay in a work enviornment like that.

~~~
asada02u
You're a lucky guy,then. I think I belong to the unlucky ones.

------
jamesrcole
[Edit: to all the people downvoting this, care to explain why you find it
objectionable? The article is trying to explain a phenomenon and it completely
ignores the existence of certain kinds of factors that may have an explanatory
role. It doesn't even mention them, even to disagree with them. Do think
that's not problematic?]

I find it disappointing when articles like this don't even consider
biological, evolutionary factors that could play a role.

~~~
eecsninja
Maybe people on this forum aren't as open-minded as they'd like to think.

~~~
lsh
I think it's exactly that. Hackernews is just another filter bubble and a
haven for a particular personality type.

~~~
dang
> a haven for a particular personality type

These perceptions are in the eye of the beholder. Multiply that 10x when it's
about "who downvoted me", since there's literally no information then, just a
blank screen to project on.

