

Entrepreneurs, The Clock Is Ticking On Your Career  - chrisyeh
http://chrisyeh.blogspot.com/2012/05/entrepreneurs-clock-is-ticking-on-your.html

======
ChuckMcM
Ageism is an interesting thing. When I was at Google I was certainly pulling
up the median but I didn't feel particularly singled out (perhaps after having
to pay Brian Reid that sort of stuff got stopped), but it is a place that many
people accuse of ageism. I saw something different.

One of the engineers at Google mentioned at lunch an "insanely great" idea
they were working on which involved RPC protocols. Having been pretty deep
into the RPC wars of the 80's I was naturally interested. His 'insanely great'
idea was a self describing protocol, not unlike ASN.1 but with python
interspersed. I mentioned that such protocols were quite popular in the 80's
with the whole 'distributed objects' meme that was going on and they all
largely vanished, but I would love to hear how his was different. Turns out it
wasn't different, and his anger at having that wisdom imparted was directed to
me, not toward his cool, albeit not exactly new, idea not being practical at
scale [1].

Now was he being ageist? I don't think so, just being a kid. Nobody likes to
find out that their idea is not novel or workable. People fall in love with
their ideas. And a lot of older engineers who I know who have found themselves
on the 'outside' of their employers correlate strongly with stories about how
the engineering team was re-inventing some wheel.

Understanding that mechanic lead me to conclude that engineers love to create,
and as they get older they have been exposed to more and more things. That
means the number of _new_ ideas they see starts getting lower and lower as a
percentage of ideas proposed. How they respond, often strongly affects how
their peers perceive them. If they point out that the wheel is being re-
invented and the old wheel is still good enough, they are often perceived as
'stuck in their ways and unwilling to change.' Whereas if they can bring up
the issues that were challenges in the previous implementation and solicit
help in over coming them, they look visionary.

Problems can occur when a younger engineer gets promoted to 'manager' or
'lead' and they are in a position where they are responsible for a project.
Sometimes like a young lieutenant fresh out of OCS they don't know how to
trust their Sargents to get things done, they force a process or a course of
action on them which is recreating a wheel. That is where things get ugly as
the 'greybeard' pushes back and the manager, not having the skills or wisdom,
feels threatened and pushes harder. Usually the older guy gets moved out of
the group so that it can go fail (or succeed) on its own.

Any well managed company can, and does, apply the skills and talents of anyone
qualified to work, regardless of their age.

That being said, from the energy perspective when you pass 50 you come to
realize that there isn't a lot to be gained in killing yourself for someone
else's benefit. Folks who would take advantage of that, and some VC's do, will
avoid you for that reason and argue against hiring folks who understand that
truism.

[1] One of the challenges of so-called 'intelligent' protocols is that they
impose a compute burden on the endpoint just to see if they are actionable.
Historically that has mean that higher transaction rates become compute
limited before the the rest of the system, thus wasting resources. Saw an
interesting pitch for a TCP Offload engine that could do the execution but the
transaction rate limit is a killer at scale.

------
reason
I really don't like the message of this post. I think the arbitrary
expectations people in the startup world place on themselves do a great deal
of harm.

I actually regret being exposed to the startup world at such a young age of
17/18. I became totally obsessed with everything startups, especially the
stories of newly christened millionaires at ages not much older than mine. I
eventually began setting some ridiculously lofty goals for myself that I've
failed to meet time and time again, and it's contributed heavily to my often
feelings of failure and low self-worth.

So how about this: Instead of rushing to do something before a completely
fabricated deadline, chase opportunities with the intent of trying your best
and the understanding that no one event or missed deadline renders you a
failure or means that you've missed out on life.

~~~
planetguy
The arbitrary, overly-specific, and gosh-darn unlikeliness of the goals
expressed here remind me more of the sort of life plan you'd expect from a
ten-year-old girl than from a full-grown man.

"OK, I'm going to meet my boyfriend at sixteen so we can be married by
nineteen and then I'll have four kids in the next four years so I can be the
world's greatest ballerina by the time I'm twenty-four and then I can start
training ponies"

~~~
GuiA
No matter how you spin it, we're all scared monkeys wearing blue jeans, trying
to make sense of what's happening around us on this small piece of rock flying
through space at ungodly speeds.

Full grown men aren't much wiser than 10 year old girls.

~~~
sixbrx
I was with you until the last sentence which seemed to be hanging beyond the
edge of its support.

~~~
gala8y
While at uni, I had a habit of attending classes with my friends, outside of
my curriculum. I remember attending a lecture on hermeneutics once, by a law
professor, versed in philosophy and such... and this must have been some
closing lecture as he was talking a lot about his personal experience of
failing to achieve any substantial understanding of what meaning was, how
(his) mind worked, etc.

He was putting it as if it was like trying to insert your head into your... in
a desperate hope of reaching some 'real' understanding. And after all those
years of trying (it looked like he had been trying), he was left with empty
hands. Not zen-style empty hands, just what-i-hoped-to-grasp-i-couldnt empty
hands.

Its a feeling you can probably get investigating stuff like physics, math,
meaning in linguistics, neuroscience or simply thinking things through as the
years go by.

Maybe grand parent was relating to something like this.

------
thaumaturgy
This really reeks of the thick-walled Silicon Valley echo chamber.

If "entrepreneur" to you means "founder of a hot VC-funded tech startup", then
yeah, there's some evident ageism and it'll be tougher -- but _not_ impossible
-- in your 40s and beyond.

But, if "entrepreneur" to you means "person who starts and runs businesses",
well, there are plenty of those doing that up until the day they die. Heck,
your 60s is a _great_ time to start a new business: you will probably have
more resources, more wisdom, better business acumen, and more free time than
you did in your twenties or thirties.

If at that age you decide you want to play in the SV startup scene, then cool,
put some of your savings behind a couple of young hackers and do it that way
if you must.

------
daenz
If anything, shouldn't entrepreneurs be told to relax? To take a breath and
enjoy life? I'm sure this article comes from a good place, but to me, it
imparts nothing but a frenzied fear of "not making it in time." No thanks. I
imagine most of us already have plenty of that fear in us.

~~~
mmphosis
Thank you.

We are creating a one hundred year language -- made out of love, not fear. Our
startup phase won't be earlier than 2096. See you then.

------
trustfundbaby
I think the whole article boils down to this (note my emphasis)

\--------------------------------

The scary thing is, if you're an _entrepreneur_ , your days of starting
companies from scratch are probably over by age 45.

I'm not happy about this; in fact, that particular deadline will loom in my
career all too soon. But it's based on a realistic assessment of the _Silicon
Valley ecosystem_.

Like it or not, the startup world is full of a _pervasive and unacknowledged
ageism_

\------------------------------------------------

* He doesn't provide any data to back up his claim that starting a company from scratch is over once you hit 45, and I've read enough outside of HN to know this is not true especially when you get outside of Software technology.

* Noting how he mentions the 'Silicon Valley ecosystem' should give you further notice that you can safely ignore this article if you don't live in Silicon Valley. Just because things happen a certain way in one place doesn't mean that it happens like that everywhere ... There is ageism in the software industry and that probably manifests itself in the startup world, but we haven't even matured as an industry ... Do you think Mark Zuckerberg is going to get turned down for VC money at 50 because he's over-the-hill? I'm thinking not.

The industry is still young (we have what ... 10, 20 years of data to back
this up?), extrapolating things like this while we're in the middle of one of
the most fascinating periods of technological change is kind of silly, history
has shown that resolve more than anything else determines success in areas
such as this ... its not like sport where your body gives out long before your
mind is willing to.

~~~
chrisyeh
The post specifically refers to Silicon Valley; you can feel free to ignore it
if you're not in that ecosystem.

Mark Zuckerberg won't get turned down because he's already super-successful--
and I point out the fact that if you do hit a home run, the limits don't
apply.

The Silicon Valley high-tech startup culture dates back nearly 60 years if you
mark the beginning with Fairchild, more if you mark it with HP.

You can overcome bias with achievement...but you ought to acknowledge that it
exists, and plan accordingly.

------
jbyers
It strikes me odd to consider venture capital a retirement plan. My anecdotal
observation is that the age of successful VCs is decreasing. I'm guessing this
follows the need to relate to younger technologies and markets. That's not to
say that "older" VCs will disappear, but that the successful 50 year-old
venture capitalist of 2027 will have started in 2012. Or 2007.

------
the_bear
I have experience in a couple of industries where investors would never trust
anyone under the age of 40 to run a company, even a startup. It's probably
true that the tech industry favors young people, but if you've been an
entrepreneur your whole professional life, it shouldn't be hard to transition
away from this high tech echo chamber when the time comes.

~~~
_delirium
True even in some tech-related areas. Nobody is going to fund a 24-year-old
heading a biotech startup, unless there are pretty exceptional circumstances.

------
cageface
_Unless you've hit a home run with one of your startups (which, incidentally,
eliminates the need to worry about money again), you'd better start that VC
transition before you turn 50._

Starting any major career change after 50 is dicey. I'm not sure there's
anything special about VC in this regard.

~~~
kalininalex
Harry Bernstein began writing his first novel at 93. He published it and
gained fame at 96. He published two more before he turned 101. His fourth book
will be published this year (posthumously, unfortunately).

Is 50 too late to start a new career? Only if we decide so in our minds.

------
rgrieselhuber
The problem with articles like this is they actually contribute nothing. What
is one supposed to do in response? Work harder?

Real entrepreneurs pay no heed to the arbitrary limitations implied by this
sort of BS. Carry on.

~~~
chrisyeh
The proper response is to understand the biases that exist and plan for how to
succeed regardless. This might involve changing your plans, or it might just
be a matter of resetting expectations.

~~~
rgrieselhuber
The successful entrepreneurs I know aren't very good at resetting their
expectations.

~~~
chrisyeh
Entrepreneurs tend to be irrationally optimistic...it's good for the world as
a whole, but probably maladaptive for the individual.

------
nookiemonster
Cargo Cult Capitalism:

Successful startups are filled with young people, so fire all the olds.

------
mattvot
I hate the sentiment that 45 is too late. Is there any statistics? Any
evidence to support the theory? Not as far as I'm aware.

I really wish I could downvote this post.

~~~
zanny
How about if you have a good idea for a new business venture, do it?

I'm 20, and have no plans to actively start my own business in the next few
years. I have no great ambition in that regard, and unless you have such
drive, anything you attempt will be less than what could be.

But I know if I discover some new-found passion I wish to venture upon in my
50s, and there is no business established for it yet or that the current king
of the hill is in desperate need of a good shake down, I will jump without
hesitation into my own start-up venture.

I mean, I hope. 30 years is 150% of my current number of rotations of Earth
that I have spent breathing of my own accord.

~~~
chrisyeh
A friend told me the story of a guy they now call "Mr. Lucky." He started 10
different companies. All failures. His wife left him. His friends thought he
was crazy. Then at age 68, company #11 was sold for over $1 billion. Today, he
is a philanthropist who is a pillar of his community.

It gets harder. That doesn't mean it's impossible.

------
DanielBMarkham
I just turned 47 last week, and I'm just about established with my first
startup. It took several years.

Does this mean I should quit and go get a corporate job?

Startups are a numbers game. Just know that and work the system. Don't fret
with how old you are, where you live, or any other thing that you have no
control over. You were dealt cards, now play them.

I would say the article offends me, but it's nowhere close. If anything, from
the echo-chamber that SV can be, it probably makes a lot of sense.

But not everybody wants to work a startup-VC life in SV. If that's your thing,
then fine: be aware it's an ageist culture and you have an expiration date.

Maybe I'm missing it, but as fast as funding requirements are dropping for
startups, this (and SV in general) just doesn't seem that big of a deal
anymore.

------
nicksergeant
I just have one question for the OP. Why would you do this:
<http://i.imgur.com/RqxZ7.png>

I saw this thing pop-out and was immediately distracted, and then annoyed, and
then lost my place.

Why would you distractingly lure me to one of your other articles, where I'll
probably be distractingly lured to another one of your articles...

I'm not a mouse.

~~~
chrisyeh
I think it's a tool I installed while looking at a company as a potential
investment. I'll try to figure out how to turn it off.

~~~
nicksergeant
Gotcha. Don't invest in them :)

~~~
chrisyeh
I didn't!

~~~
nicksergeant
hehe

------
gavanwoolery
A lot of people seem to think this article is full of BS. Maybe. But I'm only
30 and felt that I've pissed away a lot of my younger years trying to become
successful with 80 hour weeks. Maybe, by some slim chance, I will be
successful when I am 40, but at that point I've already lost my youth. Is it
worth it? I suppose it depends on your priorities.

~~~
nostrademons
I think a lot of that is because of an overly narrow and idealistic picture of
success.

I remember thinking in college that I'd half-ass my coursework so I could go
do a major open-source project so that I'd have a kick-ass resume when I
entered the working world. The project was nowhere near as kick-ass as I hoped
(I did the software for fictionalley.org), but it did serve 100k people or so,
and I didn't have any trouble getting jobs. So that was something, at least.

Then I thought I'd work my tail off for a few years so I could found a startup
and get rich. Well, I did work my tail off, and I founded a startup, but I
just didn't have the skills yet to take it across the finish line. It didn't
make me rich, it failed without accomplishment. But I did get hired by Google
afterwards, and I guess that's a decent consolation prize. So that was
something, at least.

And then once I'd been at Google for 9 months, I heard about this cool new
project to completely redesign the search page from the ground up. At the time
(2009), this was viewed as crazily ambitious: remember that the main Google
SRP basically had not changed in look & feel since 2000. We launched in May
2010, after a long hard slog, and we felt really good about ourselves for a
while. But then Google Instant launched that summer and completely
overshadowed us, and the page was completely overhauled _again_ in the summer
of 2011, so the UI we slaved over lasted barely a year. We each got
reputations internally as kick-ass devs that got stuff done, though, and were
given a fair amount of latitude to pick our next projects, and had our
pictures in BusinessWeek, and once in a while somebody even remembers the
Google Search UI from 2010-2011. So that was something, at least.

I'm still looking for the big success that'll make it all worthwhile. I'm
beginning to think that it doesn't really exist, that no matter how
"successful" I am by external metrics, I'll always be chasing the next big
thing. And increasingly, I'm beginning to think that the real big success was
just the fun I've had hanging out with other people. That can sometimes be in
the context of work, or it can sometimes be in the context of play. But
somehow I think it matters a lot more than 80 hour weeks that usually go for
naught anyway. (Luckily, I haven't really put in that many 80-hour weeks. In
crunch time I might do up to about 60, but for the most part I work reasonable
hours and spend my free time with friends.)

~~~
pudakai
great post. Really, age is meaningless, the more meaningful number is how much
time does one have left. Of course, nobody knows this with any certainty, so
just proceed every day as if it were your last or the beginning of the next
1000 days, take your pick. (Yes, I understand at the extremes of age, odds
start weighing heavily, but we're talking about 50 vs. 30 here).

I teach guitar, sometimes I'll get an older student, a beginner, who will ask,
"Is it too late for me, I'm going to be 30 (40/50/60..) in x year". I always
tell them, well, you are going to be 30 (40/50/60..) anyhow, lets just get on
w/doing something you want to do.

~~~
chrisyeh
The best time is yesterday. The next best time is today. The clock is ticking
on all of us.

------
rubyrescue
except it's just not true - there are plenty of studies that prove the
opposite point. here's just one - [http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-
innovations/the-ca...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-
innovations/the-case-for-old-entrepreneurs/2011/12/02/gIQAulJ3KO_story.html)

------
meatpopsicle
PG once stated that he wouldn't fund a first-time startup founder over the age
of 35. I remember reading that at 28, and saying "oh crap. I have 7 years."

5 years later, I know how to make my own money. I'm no longer worried about
meeting PG at 36.

------
moocow01
Ah yes, when I buy any product I always do a search beforehand to make sure
the founder was of the correct age when the company was founded

~~~
chrisyeh
The post specifically refers to the ageism of VCs, not consumers. I don't
think any of the millions of people who bought Dyson products cared how hold
he was when he invented his famous vacuums.

~~~
moocow01
Exactly... which also makes the assumption that VCs are the gatekeepers to
entrepreneurship which is obviously not true. Any customer is going to care
less if the creator of a product they like was 9 or 90.

------
chrisyeh
I'm considering doing a companion post, "It's Never Too Late To Start." Would
folks want to see that?

~~~
yukoncornelius
If you have data, yes. If not, you are just being the antagonist.

~~~
chrisyeh
Vivek Wadhwa has the data. But ultimately, what good is the data to the
individual entrepreneur? The point is that there are ways to maximize your
chances for success that are different at age 45 than at age 25.

------
gte910h
That's total crap.

"Illusion of Entrepreneurship" sticks the median age at 41.

~~~
chrisyeh
Remember, this post is just about the Silicon Valley ecosystem. It's a narrow
and specialized world where youth is worshipped, and it's very different from
the rest of the world.

------
Mz
This stuff is always funny to me. I am going to be 47 next month. I have two
adult sons in their twenties. I am routinely asked if I am their sister.
People guess I am in my thirties. Meanwhile, the average life expectancy for
my genetic disorder is mid thirties. So I joke that, in human years, I am the
equivalent of an octogenerian...and, daang I look good for an eighty year old.

My plan is to be an entrepreneur. I think that is my only hope of making
things work. Working for Da Man was helping to keep me sick and my health
issues are the single biggest obstacle I have to success. Will it be a "start
up" as in some company I can sell for millions some day? I have no idea. But I
don't expect to be an employee again.

~~~
chrisyeh
The wonderful thing about entrepreneurship is that if you're not relying on
the vagaries of investors, your age, gender, race, academics, and many other
traditional "criteria" are irrelevant. Deliver results, and you will be
successful.

------
sabat
_The scary thing is, if you're an entrepreneur, your days of starting
companies from scratch are probably over by age 45._

Bullshit, as evidenced by reason and by actual example (google for it).

~~~
chrisyeh
Vivek Wadhwa has done a great job of writing about how older entrepreneurs are
an important part of the economy:

[http://wadhwa.com/2011/12/02/washington-post-the-case-for-
ol...](http://wadhwa.com/2011/12/02/washington-post-the-case-for-old-
entrepreneurs/)

The ageism really is a strong part of Silicon Valley culture. Just look at the
quote with which Wadhwa begins his article:

“People under 35 are the people who make change happen,” said venture
capitalist Vinod Khosla, “People over 45 basically die in terms of new ideas.”

------
Daniel_Newby
Correlations tell you about the data selection process, not the data points. A
lot of 45 year olds who can successfully run a new business project already
are, thanks to their connections and track record. These success stories don't
show up at a VCs office begging for money.

Valley "ageism" sounds a lot like sour grapes from VCs who are only attractive
to young people who haven't built up credibility yet, and old people who
cannot imagine that 25 years of being turned down by their boss could possibly
have anything to do with their talents.

~~~
chrisyeh
Many top VCs explicitly prefer younger founders. Vinod Khosla doesn't back
older founders, and Paul Graham stated he wouldn't accept any first-time
founders older than 35. Both of these gentlemen are legends who are attractive
to any entrepreneur.

~~~
Daniel_Newby
> Both of these gentlemen are legends who are attractive to any entrepreneur.

Really? Suppose a successful 45 year old with a net worth of $750k decides to
ditch his chief engineer job for a startup. If he decides YC could help him
not lose perspective, is PG going to turn him down cold? If his self-funded
proof of concept gets traction, is Khosla going to have a secretary blow him
off?

Probably not. The college kids only mentality is public relations, not an
actual policy.

