
Vaccine fears brought measles back to New York - hckr_nj
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00720-2
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dmoy
I said it on the other thread, but I'll say it again here. Measles is crazy
contagious, with an N0 of somewhere around 15. You basically need everyone
vaccinated, because a full 2-3% of the people you give the vaccine to won't
become immune, and that's like dangerously close to the level you need for
herd immunity.

Somewhere around 0.2% of people (mostly kids?) die from it, in a modern
country with a decent emergency medical system.

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nostrademons
Also worth mentioning that the fatality rate of 0.1-0.2% is comparable to the
fatality rate of coronavirus in healthy adults, and higher in kids. We're
scared of coronavirus. We should be scared of measles when unvaccinated.

~~~
HarryHirsch
They should talk to the mothers about rubella and what it does to pregnant
women, and they should talk to the fathers about orchitis in mumps and how
exquisitely painful it is. The MMR shot protects against these two.

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bruce511
If anyone is wondering why we have vaccines....Well we are living in a time
where the global population lacks a vaccine and has no immunity to one single
disease. One. How's that working out for you?

So yeah, let's all not get vaccinated, then we can experience this for like,
lots and lots of diseases. Maybe each one "only" kills 1-2% of the
population... yay!

Seriously though - if this doesn't kill the anti-vax moment well, then I guess
there's no vaccine, or cure, for being stupid.

~~~
secstate
I don't know the best forum for suggesting something like this without
sounding like a monster, but to play devil's advocate for a moment:

What do the SE Asian countries that responded well to Covid-19 have in common?

A: They were more severely impacted by outbreaks of other
influenza/coronavirus diseases in the last 20 years.

Is there any benefit to a population having had experience responding to
outbreak occasionally so they have the ability to respond in situations like
we find ourselves now? There are physicians working who've never actually
encountered outbreaks of contagions before. There are politicians who have no
clue what it means to lead in a time of contagion. Is it possible that in our
pursuit of avoiding suffering in the near-term we set ourselves up for more
and greater suffering in the future?

Please, for the love of god, vaccinate yourself and encourage your loved ones
to be vaccinated.

And now I await the flood of downvotes because I dared to bring up an
untouchable discussion point on hacker news.

~~~
Ace17
Are you suggesting that regularly being impacted by outbreaks is, on average,
beneficial to a population? This seems far fetched.

There certainly are ways to teach the correct response to an outbreak, other
than killing 1% of the population.

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iamben
I wonder if a lot of vaccination fear is because the problems associated with
the vaccination are a lot easier to relate to (in a society that doesn't often
anymore see outbreaks that do a lot of damage) that the problems vaccines are
claimed to cause. Like, we all know an autistic kid, or the idea your kid is
getting "injected with mercury" \- foreign things in your body could cause
death, right? That seems easier to relate to than measles or polio - because
we really have no idea what that's actually like anymore.

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LatteLazy
I think one of the most interesting questions today is what are people really
thinking when they profess X. I don't believe most antivaxers actually think
vaccines actually represent a risk in any logical way. I think they want to be
different. I think they want to feel like hero's or people with inside
knowledge (special people in some way). I think they want the attention. I
think they want to feel more control over the world.

This is why logically explaining risk and rewards to them has no actual
effect. Facts don't change how they feel, whether a vaccine is good or not
does matter when someone wants to feel special or "make a stand".

This is the same as political extremism or religious or other illogical group
forming processes.

Normally we just ignore these groups: if you join a sex cult or a far right
militia then society at large doesn't really care. And that's still generally
true for anti vax. But they are on the edge of becoming an issue (because it
makes a material difference in my life if you don't vaccinate).

We've seen what happens when you try to break these groups up by force (Jones
Town, Wako, etc). I wonder if we're any closer to actually preventing this
issue (ironic given we're talking about vaccination). I wonder if public
opinion will remain strong if and when we have to send in SWAT to drag kids
out for vaccination...

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danielvf
Having known many people that believe vaccines can harm kids, yes, it can be a
100% real belief, not some cover.

That's why you recognize that it would not go well to attack this with
physical force - the strength of people's reaction would not because they want
to appear special, but because they honestly, 100% believe someone is trying
to hurt their children.

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LatteLazy
Sorry, my point wasn't clear. I think these people honestly believe what they
claim. 100% believe it. You could MRI them and detect no (conscious) deceit.
It's 100% real like you say.

But why do they believe it?

I think they believe it because it makes them feel good.

This is important because if they believed it because they'd looked at the
science etc, it would mean they could be convinced by more science. But if its
because of feeling, no amount of pro-vax evidence would convince them.

That's the point here: they'll die for their beliefs (some of them at least).
But why do they believe it?

Until you know why, you can't challenge the belief. Your only option is to
challenge the behaviour, and that's where things get messy...

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gioscarab
Big pharma is happy to see this in the first page of HN. Measles vaccination
is in many cases ineffective. One of my best friends at 35 vaccinated almost
died of measles. This for you may be just "anecdotal", but I am still
convinced that is better to have contracted the virus when young than think to
be immune when that is not the case, and contract the illness when adult,
where death rate is much higher (without taking in consideration the amount of
undesired effects the vaccine certainly have on some individuals).

