
Yelp Fired a Single Mother Today: Me - aestetix
https://medium.com/@jaymeesenigaglia/yelp-fired-a-single-mother-today-me-fe9c87e71be9
======
moonshinefe
I was going to critique her for taking on an unsustainable living situation.
But by the end of that post, just wow.

Yelp is a large company with a lot of resources, the way they treated this
woman is despicable, especially after a family tragedy like that. It's not
like they'll be going out of business if she took some time off to be a human
being and care for her family.

I don't use Yelp as I've heard many other negative things about them and don't
see a need to, but after reading this, I'll actively avoid them and tell
others to.

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johnloeber
Not to distract from the content of the piece, but she took a _300% loan?_
THREE HUNDRED PERCENT? Could she have gotten a better loan? I'm under the
impression that most banks offer loans at more reasonable rates.

Also, how is Yelp able to retain salespeople in the Bay Area if they pay only
$2k/month? The salary is clearly under the cost of living.

On topic: please don't let all the particularities of this case distract you.
The fundamental issue is that she was fired over a short absence due to a
serious family emergency, all while ostensibly performing well at her job.
That's not acceptable.

~~~
lagadu
Perhaps she means 130%, which is already insanely high? I can't imagine even a
loan shark practising 300%.

~~~
tunap
Some title loans (automobile) charge 10% per week, which if left unpaid, will
amount to 520% per annum. Hence why payday loan stores compete for every
corner in impoverished areas.

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yomism
And that's capitalism for you, kids.

Quoting: "I do not rely on the state to care for my son."

Not being from the USA and seeign the place this human being is in, it hurt me
reading that justification.

Goddamm, that is what state is for! You have been fed all that capitalist
bullshit for so long that don't see that another way of living is possible?

Are people waiting for private companies to help them in moments of need?
That's what a welfare state is for. Just look at Europe, for all the jokes
about french-strikes, taxes, corruption and whatelse we are not as fucked as
this.

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crdb
> while being pitched ads for my brand new vocal studio in the South Bay

> took out a loan with 300% interest to move to SF to begin training December
> 1st at Yelp

> pays $2500 in rent (I make 2k a month so YES, my family has to help and I am
> so sorry to burden them), pays $1200 a month in daycare

I do not understand.

Why would someone take a loan (at a ridiculous interest rate) to move to a
situation with higher rent (let alone cost of living) than salary, especially
with kids in tow, especially in a country with at-will employment, especially
having just started a new business? What was the upside that would be worth so
much stress and risk?

~~~
PaulRobinson
For similar reasons people take out tens of thousands or even hundreds of
thousands in loans to go to college: a promise of a better future, a little
bit of risk and debt now for a life-changing career, and a better future for
her children.

It's quite possible she was sold the position on the basis of "well, in 3-6
months time, we'll reevaluate and get you up the ladder".

She may have seen it as a life-changing opportunity with some risk for a few
months.

It annoys me that you are focusing on the things she did "wrong" rather than
asking whether Yelp is culpable for some of the blame here.

Is it acceptable for somebody to be fired for wanting to take three days
unpaid leave to deal with a loved one in ICU? Never mind the other points she
raises: this alone is terrible behaviour.

~~~
jonesb6
I don't understand how we can assign culpability after only hearing one side
of the story though..

~~~
tunap
hate to agree with you(nothing personal), but people do tend to exploit
beneficial systems. So, the few end up ruining a well-meaning support network
for the truly needy.

------
stegosaurus
A realisation I made quite early whilst growing up is that the system is set
up to make the working class look like crazy fools.

In Britain it's basically the hallmark of being middle class - politeness,
stiff upper lip.

This article does read badly, it sounds irrational, crazy, angry. And that's
rational and makes sense.

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prostoalex
> I am the single mother who closed 17K in month one and 19K in month two.

This needs more context. Is this amount of sales considered incredible, very
good, average, below average or significantly below average in Yelp world?

It's one thing if the author was a top-notch performer terminated for family
circumstances beyond her control, it would be a different story if she was
under-performing, perhaps on internal probation, and termination coincided
with a series of tragic family events.

Some companies are known to stack-rank and trim their sales force en masse.

~~~
diskcat
If she was a top-notch performer Yelp would have bent over backwards to keep
her around.

The fact that they didn't would imply that the trouble of keeping her is less
than the cost of firing her, which says a lot about the performance of an
employee.

~~~
ryandrake
> cost of firing her

I keep hearing this phrase here, often as justification for being picky when
hiring. As someone who's never run a business, can someone please elaborate a
bit about what it costs to fire someone? I thought, at least in the USA, there
are really no worker protections. You just say "pack your stuff up and get
out".

~~~
prawn
They're generally talking about the cost of re-hiring. Advertising the role or
paying internal/external HR, training up the replacement, etc.

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nudpiedo
Despite the nice try of some SV companies the lack of labor rights in the US
is a well known and well documented issue; unfortunately no new here.

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makeitsuckless
It's stories like this that cause everyone in Europe except the blind SV
worshippers and libertarian fundamentalists to just shrug and shake their
heads every time a rant comes up about how the US is so much better for
startups and entrepreneurs.

And this thread is just full of sociopaths blaming the victim. SV culture
disgusts me.

~~~
ktRolster

      >And this thread is just full of sociopaths blaming the victim.
    

It's better to not think of it as blaming the victim, but rather offering
advice on how to avoid that problem in the future. Even if the tone of the
advice is rather negative...

------
kriro
How can you take a job where you make 2k/month and pay rent of 2.5k + 1.2k
daycare. That sounds unsustainable. And a 300% loan...what?

Company culture at Yelp sounds horrible. Tell someone they can come in or get
fired over the phone while they are in the ICU is pretty bad. The other stuff
mentioned is also bad.

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danso
> _I am the single mother who closed 17K in month one and 19K in month two. I
> am the single mother who gets to see her son for a few hours a night, pays
> $2500 in rent (I make 2k a month so YES, my family has to help and I am so
> sorry to burden them), pays $1200 a month in daycare (#yelpcares — no
> subsidy there)_

I'm not experienced in sales...but how is this a good deal for the author,
nevermind tenable? This, plus the 300% loan she mentions...I wonder what the
Yelp recruiting pitch was to her? To give her the benefit of the doubt, it'd
have to be that Yelp overpromised on commissions for her to take such a risk.

But Yelp or no Yelp, this is just a difficult situation overall, and one that
continues to increase the admiration I have for women who can deal with
pregnancy/motherhood _and_ go for a high-pace job, tech or anywhere (how the F
did Ada Lovelace manage 3 pregnancies in her day?)...I'd love to hear from
other companies -- whether it be traditional ones or established tech
companies like Google/Facebook -- about how they've dealt with similar extreme
situations, if ever? My conception of Yelp is that it's not doing so hot
financially and so, malice or not, has just poorly prepared itself to deal
with the author's situation, such that a manager/CEO can justify being abrupt
because "it's her, or the overall company". Whereas a much more stable company
with all the tech amenities has more flexibility in practicing "humaneness"

~~~
PaulRobinson
Yelp: So here's how it's going to play out. We'll start you on $2k/month base,
and then after 3 months your target bonuses kick in.

You: OK, what could those be?

Yelp: Well, if you work hard, you could be looking at 25% of sales you book,
and we'd be expecting you to be doing $15k-$30k of sales a month, so let's
take the lower end of that, and assume an additional $45k a year bringing you
up to near $70k/year. Whilst you're here you're gaining great experience at a
great company

You: Well, currently my life is utter crap and this seems like a good way to
provide for my kid given I can't afford to go to school, so, OK...

Now can't you see how this might play out?

~~~
pilsetnieks
> So here's how it's going to play out. We'll start you on $2k/month base, and
> then after 3 months your target bonuses kick in

Hoodwink enough people and fire them before those 3 months are up, and you've
got a sustainable business model there.

~~~
idunno246
theyre actually still probably net negative - it costs money to train someone

~~~
tunap
More than paying the commissions for the salea that are finalized during the
'probation period'? The parents statement seems to be spot-on for Yelp's
business standards track record.

~~~
idunno246
The person training them can probably be out making deals 10x as big for
instance

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radu_floricica
I haven't seen this mentioned in comments before: we really need the other
guy's POV in this. The most common scenarios in which you'd fire somebody for
failing to show up at work is if:

\- you want to fire them anyways and are just looking for an excuse

\- there are recurring issues and this is just the last drop in a bucket - in
which case the firing incident could very well be relatively trivial

> I am the single mother who was the top of my class in training for you
> Jeremy

It does not make financial sense for a company to fire a top employee for
missing a day, evil or not.

------
scandox
Being a single parent is incredibly tough. I admire anyone who manages it
without completely losing their mind.

Real efficiency on Yelp's part would be controlled flexibility. If what we
read is accurate then they are losing out because of excessive rigidity.

We can't make employment a zero sum game. Humans are too valuable.

------
dev360
Currently in the process of moving the family back to the US from Sweden, and
this is one of the things that scares me the most about life in US. At most
workplaces, managers treat you like cattle, and people in IT are still so
blessed when I compare to the crap my wife had to go through working
hospitality/restaurants and hospitals.. The situation is unacceptable.

Still, sure there are great companies in the US that emulate perks and
benefits that you take for granted in the rest of the western world, but for
the most part, I have always felt I've needed to start my own business to rid
myself of this craziness and be able to afford myself some basic measure of
work/life balance.

------
raarts
To me, the only difference between this woman's work environment and slavery,
seems the lack of chains.

~~~
b6
Please clarify for me. You're saying working at Yelp in 2016 is similar to
life, e.g., as a rower on a slave ship?

~~~
raarts
No, I did not mean the harsh physical conditions, I mean the lack of control
over your own life. This employer seemed to 'own' her much more than I would
consider reasonable. It's not legal ownership, but the outcome seems
practically the same.

------
clockwerx
I wonder how she was employed, vs
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_leave#United_States](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_leave#United_States)

~~~
cpks
Boyfriend in hospital doesn't qualify as 'sick leave.' FMLA is very narrow.
I've been down a similar hole once in my life before. I was sickened and
shocked. One emergency in my whole life. Nominal top employer. Senior position
there. Zero support.

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robryan
Surely this isn't worth it in the long run for Yelp. I understand if someone
was constantly absent in a way that looked like they were abusing goodwill.

Surely though, the loss of morale from fellow employees over an incident like
this is not worth it, unless you want to reinforce some kind of authoritarian
workplace where people better keep quiet and stay in line if they want to
continue being employed.

~~~
jonesb6
Isn't that what a lot of sales environments are like? High pressure to
perform, constant turnover, management who only care about the quarterly
numbers?

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jonesb6
Hey everyone can I just make the point that comments supporting either the
mother or Yelp bring value to the discussion especially if they reflect the
true opinion of the reader (and likely reflect the opinion of many other
readers).

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purpleidea
Sounds like yelp is probably a shitty place to work, but on an unrelated note
you're not supposed to have your phone _on_ in the ICU. At least not where I
live.

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free2rhyme214
Yelp sucks. They deleted my review and I found out the business owner was
paying them money. I'm switching to foursquare.

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gambiting
I really don't see it as a problem with Yelp. Yelp is doing everything in its
best interests - even if its inhumane, immoral and scummy. I see it as a
problem with a completely broken social care system in the US which is just
utter bullshit, no guaranteed maternity leave is not something you would
normally accuse a "1st" world country of.

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thrillgore
Just as before, the longer I read this, the far less sympathetic I grow. I
hope she can get situated elsewhere quickly.

DO NOT TAKE OUT A HUGE ASS LOAN. Don't make that mistake. Come on, people.

~~~
tunap
Easy for you or I to say. Or anyone else who isn't impoverished, without(or
ignorant of) credit choices who's seemingly last option is the ubiquitous
'Loan Stores' that prey on the disadvantaged.

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xlm1717
You have to wonder if Yelp did something to anger someone higher up that
they're being bashed repeatedly in public.

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return0
Is "single mother" some kind of minority status she keeps repeating at every
sentence?

~~~
petercooper
It doesn't have to be a "status" \- it's her actual life. Employers and
managers should be sensitive to their employees' needs (and I say this as an
employer). It's not all about the law and ticking boxes. Yes, a low paid
single mother _does_ deserve more leeway than a middle aged childless white
guy in the office whether or not the law says so.

~~~
throwaway049
Your middle aged childless white guy may well have caring responsibilities to
his elderly parents or disabled sibling, which he didn't feel comfortable
telling you about as you appear to be unsympathetic to some kinds of
employees.

------
mnml_
upvoting, GO Foursquare

------
anu_gupta
In which a bunch of privileged males cast judgement from their perches on
someone who's clearly had to make some unpleasant choices, some of which may
even have been poor ones.

------
b6
Yelp didn't make her move, or make her take out high-interest loans, or
promise any certain job stability based on performance. It isn't relevant to
Yelp that she's a single mother. And on and on and on. So much of what is
written here seems to be failure to take responsibility for questionable
decisions and irrational expectations.

~~~
moonshinefe
Isn't that attitude the issue at hand though? Large corporations (this one has
north of 3k employees and is pulling in hundreds of millions in revenue)
shouldn't be able to treat their employees like replaceable trash instead of
human beings to save a few bucks.

Ironically, if I had a family tragedy and asked for leave at the small company
I work for that makes very few profits, they'd give me the thumbs up
instantly. You'd think the super rich corporations would have an easier time
accommodating that, but some of them just refuse if it means a few bucks out
of the pocket of John Q Millionaire.

This is precisely why our parents' generation had far more robust unions: they
got paid higher wages, and got treated with a lot more dignity over it. Even
if unions weren't perfect, they prevent a few millionaires at the top from
stomping all over the little people.

~~~
aikah
> they got paid higher wages, and got treated with a lot more dignity over it

This. But I guess working conditions will need to go back to early 20th
century ones for people to find out how low can things go without bargaining
power.

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hsod
This is a really shitty situation but I'm not sure it's Yelp's fault.

There seems to be a fundamental assumption that, by paying someone to make
sales calls for them, Yelp takes on a sort of overarching responsibility for
that person's general well-being.

Is it just because Yelp is a big institution with deep pockets? Aren't the
various governments bigger institutions with deeper pockets?

It seems to me much more logical that welfare should come from the state, and
that people and corporations should be free to enter into or exit from
mutually beneficial economic relationships.

The author proudly states that she doesn't rely on the state to care for her
son, but why not? Wasn't she effectively relying on the goodwill of Yelp to
care for her son?

------
timwaagh
i guess they were right to fire her. its a really narcissistic piece. to think
that such people actually exist in this world.

------
jkot
I am not excusing Yelp, but in most countries this is fire-able offense. In EU
my friends were in similar situation and they had to go to work. She got half-
day off on very short notice..

~~~
nrinaudo
I don't know about the rest of EU, but I currently work in France and I'd be
_shocked_ if someone were fired because they took half a day off with little
to no notice for serious health or family reasons. If anything, the company
would be sued in a heartbeat and almost guaranteed to lose.

I worked in the UK for a few years, and have had to take days off with no
notice - to attend a funeral, say - and no one even thought about criticising
me for it, let alone fire me. That might have been because it was a Japanese
company though, I can't really tell.

I also worked in Germany for a while, and a co-worker found himself in a
similar position. The company made a point of reminding him that this was not
how the rules went before sending him off with instructions not to be back
until the situation was resolved.

I don't know which part of EU your friend worked in, but I wonder if your
generalisation might not be a bit too broad.

~~~
ktRolster
It's hard to know what happened without hearing both sides of the story.

In this case, what we can guess it looked like from her manager's point of
view was: she kept taking days off, with excuses that didn't seem to make
sense (can't find car keys), and now she wants to take _three more days off._

Without trying to blame anyone, I feel bad for her and hope her boyfriend
recovers.

~~~
nrinaudo
Oh, sure, I wasn't really commenting on the original story but on the parent's
assertion that it'd also get you fired in Europe, which I think is either
untrue or too general a statement.

Firing a single mom for needing to take time off to take care of someone close
to her, especially when it would appear her performance has been at least
acceptable (if maybe not her attendance)... right or wrong, it's still a bit
of a dick move, wouldn't you agree?

------
personjerry
These posts in a nutshell: "I am bad at managing my finances. Also, it is much
easier to blame big companies than to introspect and try to improve myself."

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carlosnunez
Yelp was really shitty for treating her this way, but the decisions she made
to move to SF and work for Yelp are HIGHLY questionable.

Taking out a loan at 300% interest while FULL WELL knowing that you can't
afford rent (HER ENTIRE PAYCHECK goes to rent!) or basic living necessities
AND caring for a family AS A SINGLE MOM is beyond irresponsible.

------
daguava
If consistently treated this poorly, why would one not leave the job and go
elsewhere, especially if rent + said job puts you in the red? Not to excuse
yelp of anything, but if you don't feel you are valued you are the one
responsible for bettering your situation.

~~~
ktRolster
Most likely she doesn't know how to find jobs elsewhere. Learning to manage a
career is a skill all of itself (which for that matter is a skill I am still
learning).

So while she _could_ do that, it's not always easy to figure out.

------
sputr
Ok, so how they treat their employees sucks. Now comes the famous _but_.

Why did she take a job she could not afford - from what I understand she's
making a monthly loss of $700 + groceries, gas, etc. Why move to SF, to take a
sales job you can't afford? More importantly, a job you knew would be making
you an unsustainable loss before you even took it! With a kid in tow this just
seems irresponsible.

Now you can talk about career development, the american dream etc. but at the
end of the day, you don't take a job you can't afford. Now I'm not saying you
can't take a job where you are loosing money so you get
experience/references/career opportunities, (here comes that but again) BUT
only if you can afford it. Yeah, you missed that "opportunity", but others
will come along.

~~~
PaulRobinson
In that case nobody should ever go to college ever.

If you don't think you can get into a top school, another way to find a way up
the ladder is to find a position at a top start-up you believe will lead
somewhere better.

$1k/month for a year whilst building experience is a cheap way to get yourself
into a position that might pay $100k/year if you work hard, especially
compared to college.

Stop blaming her. Look at how Yelp behaved.

~~~
stedaniels
Not sure why you're being downvoted. In my mind also, her early risk of a low
salary is equally equatable to the up front investment of college/university.

