
All the lonely people - miraj
http://www.ucobserver.org/society/2016/06/lonely_people/
======
ChuckMcM
Again, something my grandfather taught me, was that it was important to walk
around your neighborhood and say "hi" to the people who lived there. He called
it "Being neighborly."

We also, periodically but not on a particular schedule, put together a block
BBQ where people can bring food, or not, and share a moment together to talk
about what is going in or what they are worried about etc. Generally people
respond well to the outreach, and as a consequence I know all of my neighbors
on sight, and have shared experiences with many of them creating perhaps not a
deep bond, but one which certainly gives anyone permission to approach and
talk without an invitation.

It pays benefits in surprising ways, when our dog was terrified of a pile of
beeping smoke detectors and ran off without us looking, one of our neighbors
both recognized him, and knew us, so called us to tell us they had brought him
in and we could pick him up when ever we wanted.

One of the families on our street has their grandmother living with them now.
She is suffering some dementia like the woman in the article but everyone on
the street knows her and I think keeps an eye out for her.

All from being neighborly and just walking around and talking to people.

~~~
asksol
I was also brought up to greet people, but try to greet neighbors in London,
UK and they will look at you like you fell from the sky. Most of them will not
even give a response. Big cities are a lot like this now.

~~~
mrcsparker
Keep greeting them - they will come around.

I am from the US South and not saying hello (or waving when they pass by) is
considered bad manners. I have done this all my life and people have told me
that they like it when someone says "good morning" with a smile. Maybe I am
lucky or biased, but I don't care. I like it when people are nice and I treat
people the way that I want to be treated.

I sometimes have to spend a lot of time in New York and the people are the
same. I just push through it. They won't change me because I like it when
people are pleasant. Plus, the world is a nicer place when people are nice to
you.

~~~
smelendez
One problem in New York is that the vast majority of people who try to talk to
you on the street want something--they're selling something, canvassing for a
candidate, begging, creepily flirting or running a scam--and another big
segment are under the influence or mentally ill. Usually the best case is a
lost tourist asking for directions. The worst case, that everyone's aware of,
is someone trying to get you to stop walking so they can assault you and/or
rob you by force or trickery.

~~~
careersuicide
I was actually just about to post this, almost word for word, before I read
your reply.

I often see lamentations about people not being friendly to strangers in big
cities. I've never quite understood it. It's one thing to not greet or
acknowledge a person if you're already having some sort of interaction with
them, i.e. holding the door for someone as you leave a store. Of course you
should say something or at least smile and node politely, perhaps making brief
eye contact, in that case. But, outside of situations similar in nature to
that I actually think it's pretty rude to accost strangers in a crowded public
place. People are going about their business and you're attempting to force
them to give you attention, even if that's not your intent.

Experience has taught me that above a certain threshold of crowdedness the
_only_ people who are greeting me want something from me in at least one of
the ways you mentioned. Everyone else is out and about because they have
something to do. When I go to the middle of nowhere Kansas from time to time
things are different. There you wave to passing cars and say "hi" to everyone
even if you've never seen them before. The odds that some random person is
going to try and sell you a watch at the intersection of Main St. and State
Highway Whatever is pretty much zero. And, there aren't a hundred other things
attempting to distract people so demanding a brief bit of their attention
isn't rude at all.

~~~
chrisseaton
This is my problem with strangers saying hello out of the blue - they think I
should stop everything and give them my attention. And in their head they
think they're doing something selfless!

~~~
tunap
Yep. A nod will suffice for greetings in almost all public spaces. When I
recognize the tell-tale signs I've been 'marked', I am always prepared to
respond with the unusually effective "negative" response and leave it at that.

------
kstenerud
The more I read about this, the more weird I think I must be. I've always
preferred being alone. My time in San Francisco was utter hell. I couldn't get
a moment away from people and noise. Now I live in complete isolation. My
nearest neighbor is two miles down a dirt road. I only go into town to stock
up on foods, which I vacuum seal and stuff in the deep freeze (enough to last
me 3 months at a time). I've never been happier than I am now.

~~~
sseagull
I get that feeling as well, sometimes. Even though I don't want quite your
level of isolation, I don't mind working alone or not talking to anyone else
in person for days (except my wife).

I sometimes think of it as the 'tyranny of the extroverts'. Since they are,
well, extroverted, they are the ones controlling the narrative of what's
'normal', while the introverts are too introverted to really speak up.
Extroverts are the ones saying cities are better than rural areas since
there's more to do, etc (see other HN threads).

I'm with you, though. I will take a quiet, rural or semi-rural area over a
city any day.

~~~
tripzilch
> I don't mind working alone or not talking to anyone else in person for days
> (except my wife)

IMO, there's a huge difference about loneliness between not talking to zero
people or only talking to one, in particular if that one person is important
in your life such as your wife, as opposed to having had a short chat with the
cleaning lady in the hall a week ago.

I appreciate that kstenerud was talking about the zero people scenario, and
that it's possible to prefer it that way. I think it depends on how well you
have the other parts of your life in order?

~~~
sseagull
I agree. There's certainly a continuum for the desire to be around others.
kstenerud is very much at the extreme. But he's not the only one, and there's
nothing at all wrong with that.

------
protomyth
One institution not mention (and given the publication, I find it a bit odd)
is the local churches. It is one of the large connection points that have
started to fade. The amount of social welfare the churches supported has not
been replaced.

~~~
xj9
This is something that needs to be addressed. We are becoming more secular
over time, but we aren't replacing the communities that churches create with
secular equivalents, at least not on the same scale. Feeling connected is
important, we really need to work on that.

~~~
50CNT
Germany has the Vereinswesen, which are small clubs around a common hobby
(such as shooting, football, gymnastics, orchestra, basketball, etc.) that are
usually part of a larger Verband, which may be state or country-wide like the
DFB (German Football Federation), the DBB (German Basketball Federation), DSB
(German Shooting and Archery Federation), or the BDMV (Association of German
Music Societies).

That could be a model.

~~~
ptaipale
And it is in many countries, but for some reason the U.S. doesn't seem to work
that way. I was a bit surprised when my son spent a year in high school in the
U.S. and I found out how youth football (soccer) system works there. Over here
in Europe, we have a plethora of local clubs that collect the young and old to
train and play, and to work together to organise everything, fund it, and so
on. In the U.S. the football (again, soccer) seems to be predominantly
organised by schools, and a very small part of players belong to actual soccer
clubs. I understand the same is true with other sports (American football,
baseball, basketball, etc). Similarly we have lots of clubs that arrange
things like music and orchestra trainings for youth, whereas in the U.S. this
is also organized around schools.

This is good in many ways - for instance, the integration of activities to the
school day helps it for kids - but at the same time, it makes the school's
"quality" (in terms of what the teachers and staff are like and what kind of
parents the children have) all so important. If the school fails, then
everything will. And if you don't have kids at school, can you really
contribute to the community in the same way as a seasoned football veteran can
in a local club?

~~~
flamedoge
meetup.com seems to be alive in every city....

~~~
elcapitan
How is the target audience for Meetup elsewhere? I live in Berlin and I
noticed that it's almost exclusively developers (which is fun, but sometimes
weird - I went to a street cycling meetup and everybody else was a dev too).
Maybe the dominance of German clubs in organized leisure is the reason for
that.

~~~
raverbashing
Because meetup.com is what the expat nerds know

I've given up on it though sometimes you find something "outside of the
circle"

It's like craigslist in Berlin: there are only scams because Americans think
it works the same as in the US, when Germans have never even heard of it

~~~
elcapitan
That was my impression too. In particular the types of meetups seem very
limited to tech topics. Some are ok, mostly those that are actually meant for
non-topic specific networking, like hiking groups etc, generally sports
outside of clubs.

------
some_hero-_-
I was a semi introvert and extrovert guy but after working for one startup for
more than 3 years in isolated environment makes me feel like i am fully
introvert. There is no one with whom i can express my feelings openly. I don't
have friends to hangout, and the most depressing thing is the people of my age
have all this thing. What's more awkward is I can't even able to approach
people, seems like i forgotten how to interact.

The other reason might be, i was afraid to not look like looser. Most of the
people consider me quite successful and showing such weakness in front of
society is not acceptable.

I have lot of ideas in my mind but i don't have energy to execute. My bank
balance is good but it doesn't bring happiness. I don't have time on my hand.
Sometimes i feel like i do sucide but i am strong men.

I don't recommend anyone to start a startup unless he socially fit and not
under his early 20s.

~~~
hackuser
Isolation is so painful; it's literally traumatic for people. You are not at
all the only one; in fact, what you are experiencing is a perfectly normal
reaction. Humans are fundamentally social beings; without other people to
socialize with, our cognitive and emotional systems don't function properly.
For example, for children, I believe it's well established that even abuse by
parents is better for them than abandonment. A much more extreme example is
people in solitary confinement, who experience serious mental and emotional
problems due to their almost complete lack of human contact (beyond anything
even isolated people experience out in society).

Your social skills and energy will return naturally when you feel better.
Consider finding a good therapist who you feel comfortable with. Not only will
you have someone to talk to, but they can help you understand and manage your
problems and help you develop the skills to do the things you want to do.

I would love to read on HN someday that it worked out well for you. Take care.

------
dominostars
Having community, closeness, and realness is so important for our growth but
so lacking in our environments. The only way most people know to find
community is through partnership (which has its obvious flaws e.g. divorce
rates), or in the work place, which is often lacking in meaningful connection.
Family structures are weak, and the communities formerly facilitated by
religions are not being supplemented in our new, growingly secular world.

The internet can provide some amount of valuable community and support, but
it's limited. Words in text can only convey so much. You can't be held. You
can't shout and scream and be irrational. It's easier to hide than confront
difficult emotions.

Therapy is so valuable, and its stigmatization hurts us all, but it's also
limited. It's just one person, with one set of beliefs. They aren't there with
you in the heat of a difficult situation. And honestly, there's something so
gross about having to pay hundreds of dollars just to find someone to be real
with.

------
branchless
I don't know Canada well enough yet, but I can tell you what life used to be
like in the UK in my mum's time as a kid, around 55 years back in the North
East of England. All families lived near each other and you lived near your
school. You'd walk home past your nan's house and stop in there or at your
uncles. Maybe when you got home your mum was out at the shops - ok go to your
nan's a few yards away. Or just go to your neighbour, she knows you and should
your mum be delayed long will feed you.

Then people decided that housing was an asset, an investment. The people that
decided this were in finance, they made the credit available which sets the
price. Access to local housing was limited. You had to go and get the best
paying job you could just to compete in the "market". This meant moving away.

There were other reasons too like the destruction of local industry (forced
out in part as land prices rose making them uncompetitive vs countries without
efficient rent extraction). Plus brain drain into rentier activity in the
capital. But for me land prices are at the heart of destroying communities.

I don't see community returning until we expel the usurers from the temple.
Why is living on a piece of land so damn expensive? We don't have time for
each other any more as we work insane hours. Both husband and wife have to
work, leaving no time for other work in the community like stopping in to see
a neighbour. All these tasks that were unpaid are now "on the clock" and the
banks get a cut via renting money via debt creation for land.

My mum didn't have loads of libraries or "urban design" somehow coaxing people
to interact. What that street did have is that they were not living in a time
where ever single person was giving a big wedge of their wages to the banks
thereby forcing them all to work all the time.

~~~
nojvek
I sometimes do worry about that. If banks didn't create mortgages, would
houses be more affordable. It's obscene that I will give half of my life's
income to the bank to pay off my mortgage.

~~~
slededit
People need places to live, so absolutely there would still be houses. Perhaps
not as many of the more expensive housing stock with hardwood floors and
granite counter tops.

The evidence of this is the very strong inverse correlation between interest
rates and housing prices.

------
firebender6
Where I currently live in (Bangalore, India), the community includes a large
no of young people who've migrated from rural to urban places due to work or
for studies. A lot of us are also first time graduates with financial
dependents.

In tech industry (where I work), the current work culture has made sustaining
a friends circle (support system) outside of work really hard; even more so
when they live in different cities.

I personally see co-workers & friends who struggle to cope with stress at
work, staying away from home/family/trying to sustain a relationship. The sad
part is that it rarely gets spoken about. In our case time not invested in
relationships during 20's (when one is also building his/her career) is a
major reason for loneliness as people get older. Nothing that we have done so
far has equipped us to handle it. An over-competitive job market only makes
things worse. Prioritizing family/friends often gets interpreted as not being
motivated/hardworking enough and has huge penalties (direct and indirect)
associated with it.

I really hope corporates begin to see the importance of healthy & happy
workers not just on book, but in practice as well.

------
tluyben2
When I lived in different cities people would find it extremely weird when I
talked to them or said hi on the street; guys would think I wanted something
from them and girls would think I wanted them. With many people around me
constantly, it was a very lonely experience; hard to get to know people (I
have a weird/rare first name and one of the bar guys of our local (popular)
cafe we went to _every_ friday had the same first name; after 2 years he
didn't know what I _always_ ordered or who I was) at all, let alone make
friends. I started to believe the statement which people always put forward;
you don't make new good friends after 30. I had colleagues at the office
including my some of my long term high school / uni friends but there was no
point of living in an (expensive) city for that.

We packed up and left (it was a decision on a drunk night when, once more, we
found ourselves sitting in a Kirchner painting of a place where no-one looks
at or interacts with each other) for a tiny place deep in the mountains of
another country (we moved from the Netherlands to Spain). Everyone talks to
everyone here, a few years in we not only made new friends but even people we
would call new best friends. Our closest neighbour is 5 minutes walk and the
closest bar 10 minutes, so if we don't want to see anyone, we can and if we
want a party with a mix of friends and strangers: at least 2 times a week, but
in the summer 4 times a week, we can.

Because this is a place tourists usually avoid (it is high up in the mountains
and most people really don't like that; they want beach and some blue drink
with a parasol), the people that do want to live here (and weren't born here)
have the same kind of attitude. Great place to work with a laptop in the sun.

~~~
therealdrag0
That sounds nice. What town/mountains?

------
sbardle
I've been involved in a number of "community building" initiatives. What I've
learned is that it is easy to start the community, but soon enough people
start getting political and the infighting begins - it often only takes one or
two people to ruin it for everybody else.

------
sgt101
I wonder if the story about H1B visas and older americans being sacked
provides a hint of a back story here. It seems to me that social solidarity
impedes immediate profits; things like healthcare and pensions are very
awkward for folks who want to smash open the value locked up in corporations
for redeployment into yachts and sports cars. The consequences have been out
of the public eye till now, but as the boomer bulge starts being the focus of
this, and as boomers discover that they are working till they are 80 and
retiring poor maybe things will change. How to change things - well that's
going to be one of the challenges of the future.

------
tacostakohashi
I've been thinking about this a little over the past few weeks, and one thing
that seems to be missing these days is communities where there is even the
slightest barrier to entry.

In the old days (even 20-30 years ago), geography served that purpose, and
after that, what seems to have been a golden age where vaguely like-minded
people could congregate and get to know each other on amateur radio, CB radio,
BBSs, usenet, IRC, etc.

It seems like these days, all we have are massive communities like facebook,
meetup, etc, and although there are interest-specific groups, there just isn't
any friction to keep the idiots out, and you're not much more likely to meet
interesting people there than you are on the street or in a subway car.

I'd be interested to hear of anybody's experience with any modern communities
that have even just a tiny barrier to entry, which serves the purpose of
making them even just a little bit more efficient at allowing people to find
each other and network.

------
ojbyrne
I grew up in Canada and now in the US and after reading this, the first thing
I thought of after reading this is - there are vastly fewer neighborhood bars
in Canada. Strict drunk driving laws (obviously more important) and cold
winters seemed to lead to the only viable bars being large clubs or in
downtown cores where there's tourists.

~~~
alexland
That's a very interesting thought. I've also noticed that in Metro Vancouver
the majority of pubs are on busy streets or in dense city areas, rather than
neighborhoods. Unfortunately, the people I know (mostly 20-somethings) tend to
gravitate towards the city core for social outings, and so I end up very
rarely trying the few neighborly pubs in the suburbs.

------
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is just worth trying because it helps out. Have a nice trip!

------
jokoon
I'm so angry about that issue. Long post ahead.

I remember an experience of mine. At 19, I wanted to flee my dad's home, which
was in Paris's center-near suburb, because my mother in law was emotionally
harassing me, she was very intolerant towards my presence at home and it was
generating a great deal of anxiety in me.

Before taking off, I called my dad, and he convinced me to rent AND PAY for a
small apartment 20min from home. I went to school, still the same isolated and
nerdy teen. The 3rd year, as I was failing to get a degree and diving into
depression, I did not look for a school program (getting registered in higher
education in france is very weird), so I stayed at this small apartment, ALL
EXPENSES PAID! I just let myself be abandoned. I stayed on my computer all day
long, going to bed 2h later than the day before, so at some points I was
getting in bed at 9am, and waking up at 17pm.

Only my grand parents came in to help me do some shopping (I never had a
driving license).

During that 3rd year, the 2007 crash came in, my father sent me to my mother
(who has been chronically unemployed in a small remote town) because he could
not pay that rent anymore.

My mother really helped me because I had social contact with her and my
sister, and it helped me a lot. I found a girlfriend, but we're fighting, and
for the life of me I just can't contemplate the thought of being alone again,
it terrifies me. So essentially I'm in that "friend zone", but I don't
complain and we are still good friends.

My thought on loneliness ? I think modern society, with individualism, has
compartmentalized personal space to such a degree that people don't have ANY
opportunity to talk to people. We all have our own personal:

* washing machine * fridge * oven * kitchen * toilet * bathroom * tableware * terrace

Individualism means that compartmentalization of ownership allows for better
management of resources. The REALITY, is that we don't share ANYTHING. We
actually live in our own prison cell. This is fine if you have a job that
implies social interaction, but for those who don't have a job, or have a job
that doesn't involve social interaction, you will lose your social skills
pretty quickly. And that's not a myth, that's what psychiatry says.

My cynicism tells me that despite the fact that modern democracies have a
higher standard of living for all sorts of reasons, I can really envision a
disintegration of that modern society if nothing gets done. I can really
envision why much poorer countries can thrive and surpass wealthier countries
for that reason only: because ultimately, if social atrophy increases, it
doesn't predict good things...

~~~
jokoon
I'm reading that comment again, and by rent and pay I meant that he paid for
it. (english is not my main language, sorry). I was actually not independent
financially. I would have preferred being in a foster home or anything else
than being spoon-fed by my family.

------
markdown
OT: No part of this article is visible above the fold.

[http://i.imgur.com/h12ea4h.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/h12ea4h.jpg)

------
phantom_oracle
and unlike solving the problem of horizontal scaling, a mathematical equation
or something with a clear solution, there is no clear, Silicon Valley style
cure to this problem.

You can't exactly Facebookify people who are lonely.

Also, AFAIR(r=recall), Japan has a similar issue of loneliness.

Makes you wonder though. Even if you cure the economic (poverty) and health
issues (living into your old age), something else will probably get you
(depression, loneliness, boredom, etc.)

~~~
losteric
I can't help but remember Calhoun's utopia experiment:
[http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-
utopias-1...](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-
utopias-1960s-led-grim-predictions-humans-180954423/)

~~~
tomcam
Counterintuitive, amazing, horrifying. Everyone should read about this
experiment. I would love to know if it has been re-created.

~~~
ddt_Osprey
If you like that, you'll _love_ this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_of_despair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_of_despair)

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Where we learn more about the experimenter than the subject.

------
morgante
I'm not sure that the root causes are accurate in this article. I think
loneliness transcends poverty and in many cases can be aggravated by wealth:
many of the poorer people I know have to depend on social connections for
things which I can buy.

Also, this comment seems really off:

> The homeless are, almost by definition, alone.

In my understanding, many homeless people frequently communicate with each
other.

------
roansh
As far as I understand - according to the article, loneliness in itself is not
a bad thing for the health but what it brings with itself - the possibility of
depression, possible risk of suicide, inactivity hence possibility of obesity
and diabetes. I wonder how it affects the people who genuinely prefer being
alone, and like it!

~~~
mercer
I think loneliness by definition includes the negative effects. What you're
talking about is 'solitude'.

>I wonder how it affects the people who genuinely prefer being alone, and like
it!

I'm one of those people who loves being alone, and I often ask myself the same
question. From my experience so far, the risks you mention are lower overall,
but they're still there. I

t is often interaction with others that prompts me to be more physically
active, eat healthier, etc, in the same way I suppose that it's generally
easier to commit to doing or not doing something if you're responsible to
someone else.

I find that as much as I love being alone, my thinking and behavior slowly
'deteriorates' and sometimes it can actively make me unhappy. I do think this
can be alleviated to a large degree by being disciplined, but then that in
itself is often easier with others 'watching you'.

It's fascinating and I'm now wondering how much research has been done into
solitude, rather than loneliness specifically...

~~~
kome
What if "solitude" is just a social and personal acceptable way to talk about
"loneliness"?

I was thinking about those people who call themselves "expats" and not
"immigrants".

In other way: the rich is "solo", the poor is "lonely".

~~~
sseagull
I'd say it's a difference in desire, although I'm sure there's some amount of
denial out there ("I'm not lonely, I'm just solitary")

If you want human interaction but don't get it, that's loneliness. If you
truly don't want it to begin with, that's solitude.

If you don't want human interaction but get it anyway, that's hell (to an
introvert, anyway).

~~~
mercer
I agree, although 'choice' does play a small role, at least in my experience.
I've noticed that when the option of social connection is _not_ available to
me, I am more likely to feel lonely (with all else being equal).

------
advertising
In the states I found people will look you in the eye when oassing by and some
will say hello. Most will respond back if you say hello or how are you.

When I'm in Mexico it's almost rude not greet someone with a customary "buenas
dias/tardes/noches"

In Japan rarely people will look you in the eye period.

~~~
theaeolist
On the other hand, try asking for help on the street in Japan. The level of
helpfulness of random people is amazingly high.

~~~
advertising
Most definitely. Most countries I've found that's true. Save for the last time
I was in Paris haha.

------
emmelaich
Definitely Nordic. I think I'm Nordic though I was born and live in Australia
:-)

[http://virtualwayfarer.com/nordic-conversations-are-
differen...](http://virtualwayfarer.com/nordic-conversations-are-different)

(oops - finger spasm made me move this from a reply to top level and lose me 3
karma points!)

------
sidcool
Loneliness is a curse of some cultures.

------
tpallarino
As one of my favorite musical groups so aptly put it "The Lonely People Are
Getting Lonelier"

------
ashitlerferad
People are assholes :(

~~~
RIMR
I live in a city, and I hear people screaming incoherently outside my window
on a nightly basis. This is because my neighborhood has a sizable homeless
population.

Am I an asshole for not making nightly 911 calls to report this?

~~~
tluyben2
One of the reasons I left the city and will never return; it drove me crazy.
When I hear someone scream where I live now I know it is serious, I know who
it is and I know that at least 5 other people already called the police (or
ambulance/fire dep). It also rarely happens.

------
petecox
Where _do_ they all come from?

~~~
bbcbasic
Beatles

~~~
erac1e
dont be silly

------
known
Due to lack of
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility)
and not
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility)

------
aaron695
> When she couldn’t find her way back home, confused and scared, she screamed
> for help. She banged on people’s doors and tried to claw her way into
> vehicles, setting off car alarms.

> Neither offered to help, nor called 911 — they pulled the curtains shut and
> went back to bed.

This is a insult to my intelligence. This sort of emotive bullshit is both a
lie (This is not what happened) and totally unconstructive.

There is a serious topic around this issue of care for people above food and
shelter, it's just a shame this article is so piss poorly written.

~~~
sverige
So you doubt that the reporting is accurate? I don't. It's very believable to
me that people would ignore some disturbance outside in a suburban
neighborhood.

Granted, this is an anecdote that illustrates one of the stranger aspects of
isolation, and probably wouldn't happen everywhere, but I think that's the
point: in some places, absolutely no one will help you.

So, to say it's a lie without any evidence to the contrary is unconstructive.

~~~
aaron695
> So, to say it's a lie without any evidence to the contrary is
> unconstructive.

Sorry, it is of course a lie. You shouldn't need evidence.

If you think this sort of thing happens you are a very very broken human
being.

'You' are the actual problem, because the people in these stories are not
real. But people who believe these stories are.

I shouldn't need to link evidence but I will in the hope that perhaps the
truly awful humans who think people will knowingly leave a screaming a
grandmother to die in the cold might change the awful way they think.

[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-
womans-d...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-womans-
desperate-attempt-to-stay-alive-in-freezing-temperatures/article562552/)

~~~
mirimir
What's your point?

The story that you've linked to tells basically the same story as The Observer
article does. It does close with:

> Mr. Fisher believes his neighbours would have helped Ms. Chiu, had they
> known what was happening, and may simply have not heard her cries for help.
> "I don't like to believe that people heard her and did nothing."

But that's not evidence.

------
brighta
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I came across with www.hotelyouwant.com/america/canada/ and was so much
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Be brave!

------
brighta
Do not get that lonely. What for? Use my expertise not to feel blue. It is
essential to have a solid foundation for your trip and what else but a good
hotel can reinforce it. I know it for sure as I have stayed at one. I found
myself in Canada and was in a need of a hotel to stay at for a couple of days.
I came across with www.hotelyouwant.com/america/canada/ and was so much
delighted. Thus guys made feel great there, no time to feel upset and lonely.
Be brave!

