
Microdosing LSD for Alzheimer’s proves safe in early human trial - futureguy
https://newatlas.com/science/microdosing-lsd-alzheimers-phase1-trial-results-safety/
======
pmoriarty
The most interesting thing about this study for me is that they're actually
studying LSD at all.

For years now, the main psychedelics that were studied in clinical trials were
psylocibin and MDMA, partially because LSD was deemed to have too large a
stigma attached to it from years of negative media exposure. Now I guess we've
moved beyond that.

What would be really interesting is some studies of the people who are in
positions of authority to approve or disapprove such studies. What are their
attitudes towards drugs in general and various psychedelics in particular? I
guess we're seeing indirect evidence of their attitudes in the approval of
such studies, but it would be interesting to see more direct and comprehensive
evidence.

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
> What would be really interesting is some studies of the people who are in
> positions of authority to approve or disapprove such studies. What are their
> attitudes towards drugs in general and various psychedelics in particular?

One thing I've learned about people over the years is that they rarely change,
even in the face of evidence and solid persuasion - I speculate the reason
these studies are being approved more now today than before is not because of
reasoned policymaking, but simply one of demographic shift in the public-
sector: Those who bought-in to the anti-psychedelic hysteria of the 1960s will
have almost entirely aged themselves out of the DEA, university research
oversight boards, and the pharma industry. In fact, as members of Gen X
themselves are _aging-in_ to positions of power and decision-making we'll see
things start to open-up.

~~~
aasasd
Or, as Max Planck succinctly put it: “A new scientific truth does not
generally triumph by persuading its opponents and getting them to admit their
errors, but rather by its opponents gradually dying out and giving way to a
new generation that is raised on it.”

~~~
BurningFrog
Often summarized as _" Science advances one funeral at a time"_.

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
_Society_ advances one funeral at a time.

...and that's just depressing :(

~~~
LocalH
That's really just the cycle of life forcing itself on us whether we like it
or not. Sometimes humans collectively forget that we're biological entities
first and foremost, with all the limitations and imperfections that come with
that.

Possibly, the most damaging human trait is arrogance. It causes us to get
trapped _inside_ a box, unable to look outside for other approaches.

------
anaisbetts
If you're reading this and thinking about trying microdosing, let me summarize
for you - unless you have chronic depression or anxiety, this isn't really
worth it. You'll have a harder time actually focusing and getting work done.

If you _do_ have chronic depression / anxiety though, and it's affecting your
life in a persistently detrimental way, it might be a really effective Aspirin
against it (i.e. it's not going to Cure it, but it will relieve it). LSD does
this by interrupting Rumination, the shitty thoughts in the very back of your
mind that loop during depression / anxiety.

Breaking this cycle lets you have some relief, and might help you get your
head above water enough that you can start to address some of the Bigger
Problems, without some of the pretty significant drawbacks of SSRIs (as well
as working nearly instantly, as opposed to having a month+ ramp-up)

~~~
OGWhales
I found microdosing greatly improved my productivity and ability to focus. I
think it may be dose dependent and one would have to dial in to their
appropriate dose. Also, the type of work one is doing may be an important
factor.

~~~
anaisbetts
In my experience, microdosing will do a great job at _convincing_ you that you
are extra productive and creative, but you don't end up actually getting
anything _done_ \- you're just way more excited about it. Being excited is a
Good Thing, but imho there are more effective ways to be productive

------
GuB-42
Just as a side note for those who think that it is the first step in
recognizing the benefits of microdosing for healthy people, that study shows
nothing.

First, it just shows that it is safe. It is expected, LSD is one of the safest
drugs out there. I don't think there is a single verifiable instance of
someone dying from LSD poisoning, even considering massive overdoses. And
because we are talking microdoses, it is not like people are going to
experience traumatizing bad trips.

The real question is whether microdosing LSD is better than a placebo and we
don't have the answer yet.

And even if it is, the goal here is to treat Alzheimer patients, and that LSD
proves effective doesn't mean healthy people will get benefits. A good example
would be ADHD, which is treated using amphetamines. While these drugs will
make healthy people high and overexcited, it will help ADHD patients calm down
and focus.

I am very happy that LSD gets some serious attention, but it doesn't mean it
is some kind of panacea.

~~~
Throw_Away_5482
>First, it just shows that it is safe. It is expected, LSD is one of the
safest drugs out there.

Yes, certainly. A drug that can trigger a psychosis after taking it only a
single time and that can give its users persistent hallucinations[1] is one of
the safest drugs out there. The drug propaganda gets completely out of
control.

Edit: Not to forget that taking LSD can permanently change your
personality.[2] In most cases these changes may appear positive, but there is
probably a potential for permanent negative changes.

[1]: [https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/11/lots-of-people-
going-a...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/11/lots-of-people-going-around-
with-mild-hallucinations-all-the-time/)

[2]:
[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-017-4733-3](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-017-4733-3)

~~~
cmrdporcupine
Yep over the years I have met many people with the story about the person with
latent schizophrenia who switches from functional to extremely ill after a
single LSD trip. I knew someone like this in my youth, and have since heard
about many other cases. One of the more famous examples is the musician Daniel
Johnston.

LSD is powerful and not to be messed around with lightly. Yes, it's not heroin
or meth. But it's a powerful chemical whose effects can vary wildly from
person to person and setting to setting.

------
outime
For those skeptical of psychedelics being used for anything but recreational
situations, I recommend a recent book _How to Change Your Mind_ by Michael
Pollan.

The author goes through the story of different psychedelics (including LSD)
and shows how impressive some of the experiences and studies are. It did
change my view completely. This article [1] also summarizes how close we are
to use them for medical purposes.

[1]
[https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/psychedeli...](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/psychedelic-
medicine-is-coming-the-law-isnt-ready/)

------
rahuldottech
Reply All did an episode on microdosing on LSD, and its effects/benefits:
[https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-
all/2oh933/](https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/2oh933/)

------
danielovichdk
No matter how you spin this, the vast majority of people get depressed from
environmental settings and long periods of stress. Very people are born with a
depressed mind.

For me, this is treating symptoms where we should focus on curing the fucking
reasons why people get so depressed.

Sure, let's eat some more drugs - like we don't eat enoigh of that shit. The
whole notion of taking drugs to become sane is fucking insane and ridicoulos.

Sleep, workout, and eat properly.

For the people that are real sick with depression - I feel with you, I really
do! And if LSD helps those people, or any other drug does, just go onboard.

~~~
ausbah
Sleep, exercise, and proper nutrition won't solve long term sources of stress
or depression stemming from environmental settings. Yes they are excellent
habits to have, but I'd wager they only make the symptoms of the
aforementioned issues slightly easier to deal with.

I'd argue you probably need to have more widescale societal and cultural
reforms to get rid of the sources of most of those problems. Substantially
better healthcare and higher education to reduce loan burdens, shorter working
hours and commutes to have more time to spend with family and friends, etx.

~~~
tomohawk
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/exercise-and-
mood/20...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/exercise-and-
mood/201107/outwalking-depression)

> well-conducted clinical trials have repeatedly shown mood benefit from
> exercise in adults with clinical depression

~~~
aeyes
I exercise as one form to fight depression and it helps a lot, doing something
many would consider an extreme sport. If I'm not out there pushing limits
every 2-3 days I notice how my mind get's caught up in little stuff.

But once you get injured the hole you fall into is really really deep. There
has to be another way.

------
bransonf
I’m skeptical, though I must admit that I’m not a subject matter expert.

The disruption of serotonergic pathways probably isn’t something that can be
amended by a serotonergic therapy. I’d actually predict that individuals with
Alzheimer’s would experience a diminished effect when taking LSD.

My bias here is more broad. I’m of the belief that the cure to Alzheimer’s is
more likely biological than it is chemical. Not overlooking the
interoperability of these two things, but rather suggesting that it’s probably
a problem that requires a more sophisticated treatment than purely consuming a
drug.

That said, I’m very excited to see microdosing being studied and interested in
the outcomes of this trial, whatever they may be. Certainly, the results here
could tell us something we haven’t yet discovered about LSD or Alzheimer’s,
even if there is no therapeutic application in this case.

~~~
MagnumPIG
With regard to treatment, what are you basing your belief on? Plenty of
diseases can be halted or cured with chemicals.

~~~
bransonf
Of the research I’ve read, many scientists suggest that it’s the accumulation
of plaques that cause Alzheimer’s.[0]

There’s uncertainty as to what protein is responsible for the degenerative
effects.[1]

My bias exists for the fact that I believe the cure to Alzheimer’s is removing
or preventing the development of this plaque. At least I’ve been lead to
believe this is among the most promising cures.[2] Amyloid protein is
particularly tricky because it’s insoluble. I don’t think we could develop a
purely chemical solution for the fact that it would likely be destructive to
our own biology. And I think both gene expression and enzyme production are
unlikely to be able to changed with just a drug.

[0]
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180326161000.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180326161000.htm)

[1] [https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/tau-protein-not-
amyl...](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/tau-protein-not-amyloid-may-
be-key-driver-alzheimer-s-symptoms)

[2]
[https://rupress.org/jem/article/215/3/927/42616/BACE1-deleti...](https://rupress.org/jem/article/215/3/927/42616/BACE1-deletion-
in-the-adult-mouse-reverses)

~~~
CuriouslyC
The beta amyloid theory is pretty tired at this point since the correlation
between plaques and Alzheimer's is only moderate.

Imo Alzheimer's is probably more related to the brain falling into
dysdunctional, self reinforcing patterns of synaptic connectivity.

Neural plaques might exacerbate this problem by disrupting connectivity, but
clearly the brains of many people with plaques learn to route around this
damage to retain functionality.

~~~
bransonf
> self reinforcing patterns of synaptic connectivity

Any sources for this? I’d be very interested to read the literature on this.

~~~
CuriouslyC
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4207354/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4207354/)

Just a jumping off point review on the weakness of the amyloid theory.

The connectome dysregulation theory is my own, it hasn't appeared in the
scientific literature as of yet due to our inability to perform fine mapping
of synaptic connections without microtoming a cadaver brain.

~~~
kortex
That's a cool theory. The brain tries pretty hard to maintain criticality
(hard as in, disruptions cause it to return to that setpoint quickly). It's
possible that inability to recover or maintain optimal processing criticality
can lead to corruption of the connectome.

[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191007113314.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191007113314.htm)

------
anewguy9000
the study demonstrsted safety, not effectiveness; which is ironic, because the
safety of lsd is well established, while the effectiveness of anything to
treat alzheimers is not.

------
aiphex
Disappointing to see some of the comments. I'm thinking a number of posters
here haven't tried hallucinogens...

~~~
hart_russell
I have a good friend who tried mushrooms for the first time. He went
completely psychotic. We had to call police/emt to subdue him. Ended up tied
down to a gurney until he sobered up in the hospital for a couple hours.

Psychedelic are NOT for everyone. It is dangerous to suggest they are.

~~~
aphextim
One time this 'guru' told me, "That is what happens when you try to put a 6
cylinder drug into a 4 cylinder mind." when referring to someone at a festival
who lost their shit.

Granted it could have been a bad dose, but when everyone else around them was
fine, it typically is the user who was not ready for the experience or had
some underlying issues they were not dealing with, and when you take these
types of drugs you don't have a choice but to deal with it.

Sadly the police/emt way of dealing with it probably caused more trauma than
anything but I understand their reasoning in doing what they did.

When someone is trying these types of substances for the first time it is a
good idea to make sure they are in a good frame of mind, have a few people
guiding them on their journey.

If you decide to randomly take mushrooms for the first time in an environment
where not everyone is on the same level as you and you have no one to guide
you through your journey, you are going to have a bad time.

~~~
aiphex
I like that 'guru' quote. When it comes to the trip. I always hear about the
'have a sober friend, or a trip buddy, etc' I've never thought this was the
best idea. I think it could be worse for someone in a bad state to have to
deal with other people.

Let a person be by themselves. Chances are they will just sit there and go
through the corridors of their mind. There may be sheer terror, and at some
point there will hopefully (likely) be peace and euphoria. If nothing else it
will wear off in a handful of hours and if they were just sitting by
themselves then they can hopefully shake it off and get on with things. I
think it's dealing with other people that could raise the situation to
unstable levels.

------
tempsy
and a story about a YouTube engineer who took LSD over the summer and freaked
out and nearly killed/ran over a bunch of people
[https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/youtube-
engin...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/youtube-engineer-lsd-
rampage-arrested)

~~~
enragedcacti
If you think that's crazy check out this drug that caused almost 11,000
vehicle deaths last year:

[https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-
driving](https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving)

And it's still legal!!!

~~~
tempsy
you can still make decisions while under influence of alcohol. With LSD you
lose “control” with a full dose, so bad trips can make people highly
unpredictable in ways that isn’t true about alcohol. That’s my point.

~~~
vonseel
Have you ever actually taken LSD? I’m pretty sure many people have lost
complete control of their judgement and rational mind _drinking alcohol_ in
their college days... or any age, really. I would never suggest driving or
anything dangerous on LSD, but I was still able to tell myself “ok, this is
real, that’s not real” when I took LSD.

The most surprising thing from my (single) LSD experience was it somehow
changed my perspective at the time on work and school. Almost overnight, I
went from being apathetic and unmotivated to seeing work as the most moral
thing one could do, and something to be proud of. I’m not sure why since I
don’t remember any conversations about work at the time. It felt like a
lightbulb.

