
Chevrolet Volt Extends Its Appeal - jseliger
http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/video-review-all-new-2016-chevrolet-volt-extends-its-appeal
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secabeen
Just as a note prices on used Model S's are lower than you might expect.
There's a model S listed for $48k from Tesla today, and there was one at $43k
in the last few weeks. Some buyers have mentioned that even lower-priced
Tesla's are sold without ever reaching the public list, so if you were in
contact with your local Tesla location, they might be able to find one for you
for under $40k.

[http://ev-cpo.com/](http://ev-cpo.com/) is a nice aggregator for the public
listings.

~~~
loarabia
Nice site. That seems like a surprisingly fast depreciation rate. I would have
thought Teslas would hold their value longer compared to other cars.

~~~
superuser2
You can get a much better car for the price of a Model S. The price premium
pays for prestige/coolnesss over stodgy old BMW/Porsche/Lexus, which is
dampened signifantly in the used market.

~~~
r00fus
Can you name one? For ~$55k, it's tempting to go gas-free even on my 75mi
roundtrip commute as opposed to my 50mpg (10yo) Prius. Other options are non-
viable at that range.

~~~
superuser2
Model S starts at $69k. That's a _lot_ of car. The model Consumer Reports gave
100/100 to is the P85D, at $105k. That's a ridiculous amount of car.

If you're looking at sedans/coupes: BMW M235i or 328d xDrive ($50k), BMW
5-series ($60k) Mercedes E250 diesel ($63k), Audi A6 ($56k), Porsche Boxster
($59k).

I wouldn't be sad about my money going to fund cool battery technology and
saving the environment. But you could also use it to buy more car.

The price premium for Tesla over a similar gas or diesel luxury vehicle is
conservatively $20k (since the BMW M and 5-series are closer to the P85D than
the base Model S). Figure diesel is at $2.50. The 328d and E250 both get close
to 40mpg highway. You'd have to drive more than 300,000 miles to break even on
the electric, and that's before you consider the price of electricity.

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blisterpeanuts
Knock $6K off the price, bump the electric range to 100 miles and gasoline
range to 400 miles (500 total) and you have the car of the future.
Congratulations to GM/Chevrolet for continuing to be innovative in this
sector.

I just wish Chevrolet would move a little faster with its release cycle; five
years is a long time to take for what amounts to an incremental improvement.

Unfortunately for them, the new Volt arrives just as fuel prices hit a low of
$2/gallon, which when adjusted for inflation is the same as in 1971 (about
$0.50). Of course, fuel prices will rise again at some point, but the American
car market has a short term mentality; when fuel prices are low, large vehicle
sales rise, and vice versa.

The Volt will probably continue to do well in the niche market of local urban
commuting. The average Volt owners are going 900 miles between fill ups, and
the larger battery will probably raise this number.

~~~
rhino369
50 miles is more than enough for a car with a gasoline backup tank for most
use cases. Average car users use below 50 almost every single day. Something
like 98-98% of trips are under 50 miles. 95% of people commute less than 40
miles.

Adding more weight and room for only a small percent of rides is probably less
efficient (economically and ecologically) than just popping into gas for 5% of
trips.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
Perhaps that was the results of their analysis, I don't know. I used to have a
27 mile commute in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area, so even the 53-mile range
might not have been sufficient.

Every extra 10 miles you add to the range will make the vehicle that much more
useful for a wider category of drivers (in terms of staying in electric mode
and avoiding burning gasoline). At some point perhaps they see it as
diminishing returns, except that really when it comes to electric vehicles,
the more range the better.

~~~
Grishnakh
Oh please. If the gas engine has to come on for the last couple miles of your
commute, what's the problem? You're still only using a tiny amount of gas for
a 54-mile commute. That's the whole point of cars like this: most of your
trips fit within that range, or just barely outside it, so your overall gas
usage is almost nothing.

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ebbv
The battery capacity is increasing by only 7.6% (from 17.1 KWh to 18.4 KWh)
but they are claiming an increase electric only mode range of 51% (35 miles to
53 mlles.) I wonder where all the extra range is coming from.

My Leaf gets a claimed 80-90 mile range on its 24 KWh battery, so
proportionally the 53 miles on 18.4 would make sense, but remember the Volt is
carrying around an ICE and all its trappings (it foregoes the drivetrain for
the ICE, but it still needs lubrication, cooling, intake, exhaust, etc.) so
the volt weighs about 300 lbs more than the Leaf (which is ~10%), and that's
going to have an efficiency cost.

Also, I should point out the leaf has had a 25% battery capacity increase in
the new model, which should result in a direct 25% range increase since the
new battery takes up the exact same space and weight as the old one.

~~~
dwhall
The Gen 2 Voltec drivetrain has two motor/generators, two planetary gearsets,
an abundance of clutches and the ICE. This allows the system to be used in
five distinct drive modes ( [http://gm-volt.com/2015/02/20/gen-2-volt-
transmission-operat...](http://gm-volt.com/2015/02/20/gen-2-volt-transmission-
operating-modes-explained/) ). The all-electric range increase is
proportionally greater than the battery capacity increase because the new
drive system uses two-motor drive mode more often than the first gen drive
system.

~~~
Gravityloss
This is very fascinating, new mechanical approaches proliferate!

Koenigsegg has the total opposite approach in their hybrid Regera supercar: no
gearboxes at all. Low speed high torque is delegated to the electric motors,
and the internal combustion engine only engages after a certain speed.

[http://jalopnik.com/how-the-1-500-hp-koenigsegg-regera-
hits-...](http://jalopnik.com/how-the-1-500-hp-koenigsegg-regera-hits-248-mph-
without-1689181377)

I think that is a potentially fruitful approach.

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danielnaab
Years ago, my impression was that the goal of the Volt was to be fully-
electric with a range-extending flex-fuel generator that recharges the
batteries (rather than a hybrid approach with a separate internal combustion
engine to extend range).

Is this idea just totally dead for some kind of innate technical challenge? It
seems that mechanically, the cost of a generator and one drive train would be
preferable, if it were feasible performance-wise.

~~~
ams6110
You're talking about a series hybrid design? I.e combustion engine powers a
generator which in turn powers electric drive motor(s), usually with a battery
system to allow for buffering generator output and to capture power from
regenerative braking.

For long distance highway driving, this is less efficient since you have
losses between the generator and the electric motors. It can work well for
mostly stop-and-go driving and is used in hybrid buses I believe.

~~~
ScottBurson
I had always thought the Volt _was_ a series hybrid, but I just checked [0]
and it turns out there's a mechanical bypass mechanism that can connect the
gasoline motor to the drivetrain, under control of the engine computer. Sounds
like at low speeds it operates as a series hybrid, but at highway speeds, once
the batteries are drained, it turns into a parallel hybrid. Clever!

EDITED to add: dwhall posted a link with much more detail [1] -- very
interesting!

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt#Drivetrain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt#Drivetrain)

[1] [http://gm-volt.com/2015/02/20/gen-2-volt-transmission-
operat...](http://gm-volt.com/2015/02/20/gen-2-volt-transmission-operating-
modes-explained/)

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bane
One of the great things about the new hybrid drivetrains is that they're
basically electric cars, but they convert gasoline to electricity locally
using a gas motor and an small generator. This is different than the first few
generations where the electric motor assisted a regular old dinosaur burner in
day-to-day -- now the gas engines kick in to either extend range or augment
the electric motors, but that's it. It's bumped efficiency up a ton and seems
to have dropped prices quite a bit as the drivetrains end up with fewer big
complicated moving parts.

My current car is a 2015 Honda Accord Hybrid..it's described as a CVT, but
actually isn't. It's an electric car with a clutch that engages an oversized
generator/engine when it needs more kick. In stop and go city driving, this
arrangement is actually more efficient than highway driving and I've gotten
north of 50mpg pretty regularly. Range on 15 gallons of gas is ~650
miles...the car is bigger than a Prius, looks more like a normal car and
drives fantastically (since Honda trickled down Acura tech into the suspension
system to account for the increased weight and the electric and gas motors
combined make the car pretty fast for a family sedan). The only sad thing is
that Honda is skipping 2016 for this car and won't produce it until a complete
redesign probably in 2017. All told, $25k for the car off the lot and I was
able to get a few grand for my old car meaning I paid only slightly over $20k
for this tech.

From talking to Volt owners, they have a slightly superior experience in terms
of the car having more of a bias towards being electric. But the car is
expensive, small and performance isn't great. So I'm not sure who this is
marketed towards. A bit more and you're dipping into low-end Teslas.

~~~
dchuk
How were you able to snag that for $25k? I'm in the market for a new car and
was looking at the accord hybrid but I can't find it below $30k anywhere...

~~~
bane
I went for the trim without navigation or leather, combined with end of model
year urgency and I got several quotes from dealers ahead of time. It still
took some negotiating.

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dsfyu404ed
If/when they update the Cadillac equivalent I'm going to miss being able to
say that my 20yo truck with the economy engine is faster than a new Caddy.
That said, this is a step in the right direction for electric cars. I've
always thought an incremental transition from hybrids was the way to go and
that's basically what the Volt it.

~~~
csours
There is not an upgrade currently planned for the ELR, but the 2017 CT6 does
have a PHEV drivetrain option.

I find the electric drivetrain much more satisfying even with lower 0-60
numbers, as you have all the torque all the time. I do wish GM also worked on
the 0-60 numbers.

> The combined system is capable of producing total system power of 250 kW
> (335 hp) and 586 Nm (432 lb-ft) of torque. [1]

Disclosure: I am a GM employee.

1\.
[http://media.cadillac.com/media/cn/en/cadillac/vehicles/ct6_...](http://media.cadillac.com/media/cn/en/cadillac/vehicles/ct6_phev/2016.html)

~~~
dsfyu404ed
That's nice. It was kind of embarrassing for a luxury sedan to have comparable
performance numbers to a 90s F-series with a 300 and 4.10s (which also has
torque pretty much all the time).

Those vehicles are so dissimilar it's kinda funny how close they score on the
consumer (0-60, top speed) straight line performance metrics. Numbers
obviously don't tell the full story but it's amusing since 0-60 and top speed
are the two numbers that people that don't know cars generally care a lot
about.

~~~
csours
Have you driven an electric drivetrain vehicle? (Serious question)

I've driven the 2014 ELR (for a week) and test drove a Tesla. The Tesla of
course had much better acceleration[1], but even the ELR was satisfying to
drive.

With an electric drivetrain you don't have to downshift (or wait for a
downshift in an automatic transmission). You don't have to wait for a turbo
spool. You don't have to wait for any lags at all. Its really amazing, and I
think it must be the future of automotive.

1\. In my opinion the 2014 ELR was a beautifully styled high-luxury vehicle
with mystifyingly poor performance. I don't know what they were even thinking.
The 2016 was a bit better, but still suffered from (I assume) beancountering.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
I've driven someone else's EV conversion (pretty much irrelevant in terms of
performance) and ridden in a Volt. Dollar for dollar it's nothing special.
Compared to similar econoboxes the instant torque is cool. Compared to similar
vehicles (Civics and the like) it's a ripoff. Compared to similarly priced
vehicles it's slow.

I'll agree that as it stands now electric stuff has to be the future from a
purely numbers perspective (emissions will be a bigger issue, demand for oil
will rise, methods of getting it will become more expensive, etc, etc) but at
this point it's not worth paying the premium for unless you've just got to be
an early adopter, live in an area with massive subsidies or want to one up
your Prius driving neighbors conspicuous environmentalism.

~~~
csours
I agree that electric cars have some way to go.

Automakers have to put smaller and more efficient internal combustion engines
to meet fuel economy and emission standards. You can put very powerful
electric motors in cars without increasing CO2 emissions significantly.

I do worry that low fuel prices are doing strange and bad things to the
market. I think if there were a republican president in power now, (s)he could
raise taxes on fuel to help normalize the market, but there's no way Obama
could do that at this point in time.

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technotarek
Does anyone here have experience with / an opinion about the Ford C-Max? We're
about to enter the new car market and are pitting the Volt against it and the
Prius. (The new 2016 Prius is so ugly, though, that it's starting to fall off
our radar.)

~~~
dwhall
TL;DR: Driving electric is sublime and among the 3 you listed, only the Volt
lets you do it for a significant number of miles.

Disclosure: extremely satisfied 2013 Volt owner here.

I test drove every form of electric-augmented automobile available for sale in
the midwest (some plug-ins are for sale only on the coasts, so don't have
trained repairmen near me).

The C-Max had a useful form factor. It would fit my family with legroom in the
rear, although the energi's trunk space was severely compromised by the extra
battery. Loading groceries would block the lower 30% view. The C-Max's engine
was noisy, annoyingly so. Also, Ford was caught misrepresenting their MPGs and
had to readjust them.

I drove a C-Max and a C-Max energi (the plug-in). Between the two, I'd prefer
the energi because it runs 100% electric some of the time (but nowhere near
what the Volt can do), but the price difference was not justified.

www.gm-volt.com is a great resource for prospective and actual owners. From
there I learned that buying a used Volt was a good idea and a great deal for
these reasons: 1) used Volt prices are outrageously low for a high-quality
car, albeit compact. 2) Reading the dash computer's "lifetime mpg" will let
you know (with some reverse math) how many of the miles on the odometer come
from the combustion engine vs electric. This is important because a Volt with
30K miles may only have 10-12K miles on gas; the rest electric. And since the
electric drivetrain has a 8yr/100,000mi warranty, you're covered. 3) There are
guys reporting their Volt's battery still taking 90% of their original charge
after reaching 100,000 miles. 4) The guys taking ownership of the 2016 Volt
are reporting 50-60 miles all-electric range and quite a bit more punch when
putting the pedal down.

edit: Added TL;DR

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nikolay
I've heard people like Dave Asprey recommend people not to buy EV, because of
the EMF and the health hazards. Any comments?

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darksim905
Mother of God, the new Volt looks like it made love to the rest of GM. Looks
like shit on the inside. These big businesses need to appeal to younger masses
& people who actually care about why they buy a car.

~~~
csours
Any _particular_ nitpick you have?

