
Ask HN: How do you find time to code/build your business in the evening? - devmonk
After the kids get to bed, I'm either burned out for the day or doing something else that must be done (laundry, etc.).<p>How do you make/find time to spend the time you want to in order to help with the family, run your part-time (or full-time) business into the evening (etc.), and still be able to have some downtime each day? How do you get focused?
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fookyong
Don't build in the evening.

In the evening, wind down the day, have a beer and plan out how you're going
to use two hours in the morning _tomorrow_ most effectively. Set one clear
goal. Then...

1) Go to sleep

2) Wake up early (I recommend 6am)

3) Do the work you thought up last night

I find myself remarkably productive in this cycle. If you've planned well,
you'll whiz through the tasks. Focus on "doing one thing" each day and you'll
be racing through iteration cycles. I find that I'm usually so productive like
this that I can comfortably keep the weekend purely for recreation guilt-free,
rather than continuing to iterate on my down time and burning out.

This is how I built <http://goodgecko.com>

It's taken about 3 months* of doing exactly the above, now has paying
customers and is an extremely satisfying "side project"!

UPDATE:

*I should elaborate - 3 months since the very barebones MVP. The MVP took about 2 months and featured basic surveys and a one-page sales site. The current product features web, mobile, popup and kiosk surveys and has a fully-realized sales site. The sales site itself took about a month to make...

~~~
ojbyrne
I do like, and have done, the idea. But don't you find yourself dragging in
the mid-to-late afternoon at your daytime job?

~~~
fookyong
it's different for me since I am also a partner at my "dayjob", so my
motivation is very high for both of these projects :)

that said, I think it's normal to feel a little drag now and again - whether
it's on a side project or your day job. just take a break and come back to it
after a few days.

~~~
iampims
I thought you had quit everything to work full-time on Peashoot… now
everything makes more sense!

------
atldev
First: [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/03/20/running-a-software-
busin...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/03/20/running-a-software-business-
on-5-hours-a-week/)

Then: 1) I never sacrifice dinner with my family and I try to "be home" from
5-9. Not just physically, but mentally and emotionally.

2) Always prioritize your most difficult work first. If you start with "check
HackerNews", time will disappear. Finish a use case first then reward
yourself. Pick a new feature to ship each night and the progress will fuel
you.

3) I've never liked working super early in the morning, so I take quick power
naps in the evening (30min to 1hr.) to refresh and work from 10-1. Solid,
uninterrupted 3 hrs.

4) Passive work (like catching up on HN, other sites) can be done with MacBook
in lap on the couch if you want to unwind with some Tivo.

5) Don't be afraid to invest appropriately. I'm actually taking vacation next
week to complete my punch list: finish coding, meet with an advisor, attend a
trade show and prepare product for beta.

------
wyclif
Eliminate television and other forms of entertainment.

~~~
staunch
Every single hour you're awake you have the mental and physical energy to
watch a movie. That's not true of programming.

~~~
wlievens
True. I suggest: eliminate watching crap on TV and only watch that which is
(to you) truly worth watching.

~~~
joshfinnie
Unfortunately, with Netflix, Hulu, Tivo... I am never in short supply of
things to watch on TV that isn't crap. All six seasons of Lost, that's a lot
of time gone on!

~~~
frankwiles
I hope you realize you just said watching Lost is more important than
developing your product. All six seasons will still be there next year, and if
your product is a success, you'll have all the time you want to watch them.

~~~
wlievens
If he's really succesfull he's likely to have less time available, actually
:-)

------
Travis
I'm the programmer in my startup. I'm also the guy with the day job. We
weren't making the necessary progress until we actually analyzed why I wasn't
being as productive as we needed in the evening and weekend situations.

Turns out that I basically needed an assistant. Since I was building features
for my cofounders, we decided that we should pair program (except they don't
know how to program). So they act as the "feature manager" and come up to my
apt for 2 hours a nights a week and we work together.

A few key points: the feature managers MUST have their thoughts detailed out.
In order for me to crank out code, I need to know exactly what to do. I think
there's a cognitive cost when you have to shift from implementation to design
mode (and even testing mode). You'll be amazed how much it helps to push those
responsibilities out of your brain (and yet still get fast feedback).

Doing this, we've gotten probably 4 months worth of work done in the last
month, without me increasing hours. Seeing how efficiently I can implement
features made my cofounders realize that it's worthwhile to pay me even 1/4
time, so that I can reduce hours elsewhere. Been a real game changer for our
company.

~~~
taa
I'm in the same boat as you and totally agree with you that it is necessary to
separate design from implementation and assign these tasks to different people
in order to maintain or boost productivity. We've done the same in my startup
and it's working great. Further, we feed off each other's progress and try to
stay in sync, which keeps us motivating and grinding.

------
arethuza
I try and stick to 3 hours 4 times a week (9-12) with three visits to the gym
(two in the evening during the week and one on Saturday afternoon) with
Saturday evening as "free" time. Usually manage a chunk of time during the day
on Sunday as well. So probably 15 hours a week on average doing my own work.

I usually make sure I have what I want to do in the evening sketched out in a
notebook at lunchtime - which is when I do research etc.

The thing that makes this possible is pretty much having a "regular" day job
that is within walking distance of where I live - 20 minute walk away. With a
commute I'd be too tired to do anything at night (I know, I have tried). I
usually get home at 6pm - same time as my son gets home from school.

The other thing I have found is that staying up past midnight is a _bad_ idea
- I even have an alarm set on my watch to remind me to start shutting down at
23:50.

I tend to sleep most soundly when I've just fixed some horrible bug or
implemented some sweet feature!

Note that includes plenty time with 11 year old son and my wife - who has a
much more high-pressure job than I have (I do all of the cooking).

------
hopeless
Thanks for asking this. I've been struggling with exactly the same sort of
problem.

For a while I was working late nights and making good progress but since
having our 2nd kid it has been very difficult to get back into it. Being
depressed over the day job and money definitely doesn't help.

It's interesting that so many people recommend the mornings. I can see the
logic but from a practical point-of-view, I don't think it will work. My kids
are v. good and sleep from ~7pm to 7am but they're awake earlier in the
mornings and just happy to stay in bed. If I get up at 5 or 6am then I'm going
risk waking not only my wife but also rousing the 2 children too. Maybe I'll
give it a try next week but I'm sceptical.

One thing to bear in mind... when working in the evenings I've found progress
is roughly: 1 week of evenings == 1 full-time day. Things take an
extraordinarily long time to complete.

------
barnaby
"Consistency is the authors best friend"

That's something my Dad (a writer himself) told me when I wanted to write a
book when I was young. And it's true for business as well! When I wrote just a
little bit regularly (a page or two a day) I got a _lot_ done in a month, but
then I started just writing in batches, marathon sessions here and there, and
nothing really got done plus I lost wind pretty quickly.

Now I'm working a day job and writing code for another startup idea and
regularity helps me, this time I plan to stick with the consistency, rather
than degrade into spurts, so that I finish this (unlike the book).

------
happybuy
Make sure you exercise and are healthy. I find once I've taken care of this, I
am so much more likely to have focused, productive time on projects.

A good summary of other things that can be done to improve and simplify your
life is at zenhabits: <http://zenhabits.net/brief-guide/>

~~~
JerryH
Body and mind, a good point to remember indeed.

------
mdoyle
I've agreed with the good lady that I will work in the evenings between Monday
and Thursday, which normally gives me three-four hours a night, after the kids
have gone to bed. Friday, Saturday and Sunday are for the family with the odd
exception, which has the added benefit of giving me some thinking time. I have
30 days holiday a year and use 10 of those days for working on my own stuff;
effectively a working holiday but its very useful.

~~~
user24
I really like this idea. Too often we hear about young, single founder with no
commitments. Well yeah it's easy to hack away to 3 AM if you're living in your
parents basement! I used to code all night long when I was still in school.

Now I'm 27 with a 9-5.30 job and a partner, friends, family. I like to go
swimming, I like eating out and cooking meals in, all that gets in the way of
marathon hacking sessions. Carving out dedicated time in the weekly time-
budget is a good way to manage the balance.

------
AmberShah
1) I can actually get a lot more done in a 1 hour lunch break at work than a 2
hour session at night. Other people prefer to work in the mornings before work
or even work a full weekend day. There's no reason why it has to be in the
evening.

2) I'm lucky enough to have a high paying job, enough so that I can afford to
have house cleaners, and I also pay my brother to do our laundry every few
weeks (this is a win-win, since he gets spending money). Sometimes I feel bad
for not doing these things myself, BUT in reality it's working and that's what
counts. To be honest, if I made less, I might consider going for funding
instead of working, but since I make good money, I consider that to be my
investment in my business. That being said, I still have household chores to
do, but you just have to get realistic about how much you can really do,
whether that means getting help, or just NOT doing chores (sad, but true)

3) Since I know have much more limited time than other people, I really really
REALLY need to find ways to keep the product lean and focused. Everyone says
they try to do this, but you know, necessity is the mother of invention.

4) Finally, sometimes I'll be in bed, it's midnight and I need to wake up
early for work. I'll start thinking about the product and get so excited I
have to get up and work on it for an hour or so. And of course, since I'm
pumped, I'm much more productive. This is horrible for my sleep, but I think
it's a fair trade for starting a startup, in addition to living a full life
with family and work.

5) Assuming you have a supportive spouse, he can take the kids for an outing
to the zoo, or whatever, on Saturday mornings and you can get a good 6 hours
in. We find it to be a win-win, since they get to spend quality time then.

------
ganley
This is about writing, but applies just as well here:
[http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/09/16/writing-find-the-
time-...](http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/09/16/writing-find-the-time-or-
dont/)

------
Jupe
Ahh, stop reading Hacker News? <g>

~~~
binomial
Unrelated, but: is <g> some sort of emoticon? Or what?

~~~
chad_oliver
It's short for <grin>, i.e it's a humor marker.

------
abyssknight
This will likely get lost in the ether, but I'm presuming you work a day job.
I do the same, and now I'm going back to school to get a Masters degree. Funny
thing about it, though, is that somehow my drive to learn and build has grown.
I'm not saying I have more time, or that I don't feel burnt out. I just feel
less burnt out about building applications. That said, my job has me on sort
of an educational documentation rotation wherein I haven't had the chance to
write code in awhile so that may also be why.

My point is, focus on everything else and somehow, the time will manifest
itself. Whether it happens because you're avoiding something else, or just
because you're not used to doing nothing (like I used to do, and still do, a
lot) in your downtime. Just be sure you aren't avoiding the family. :)

------
swalberg
I'm in the same situation as you. First off, my business is my hobby, so
instead of watching TV or playing video games, I try to get something done on
my application.

I choose small pieces of work to do that can fit in about an hour. My wife
does writing/school in the evenings, so we often sit together and work. If I
don't have the mental attention to write code, I work on other things.

Funny enough, I've been very productive while taking my oldest kid to karate.
I've built a surprising amount of my application at the dojo :)

I start my day job early (at the office around 7) so that I can get back home
and spend more time with the family until bedtime.

I've also learned to accept that my progress might be slow some weeks because
I've made the decision to put my family first.

------
booster
I think the short answer to your question is that it is difficult but it can
be done.

The biggest problem I have is finding large enough blocks of time (> 30 mins)
to concentrate on the task in hand. The only two blocks that I've managed to
secure are early in the mornings before the kids get up and on my commute to
work. I use the return journey of my commute to plan what I'm going to do the
next day. Although this strategy only provides me with a few hours a day, I
find that this is sufficient to give my project some sort of momentum.

I tend to avoid evening development as the quality of the work I produce isn't
optimal and it would eat into the time that I want to spend with my very
supportive wife and children.

------
tsycho
My day job starts pretty early in the morning (need to leave home by 7:30) so
working on weekday mornings is pretty much impossible. I manage to get in a
2hr session after dinner on 3-4 weeknights, but doing so consistently requires
a lot of discipline, giving up on TV etc., and an understanding
wife/girlfriend.

I also try to tackle the larger/tougher parts of my side-projects on weekends
instead. To make my weekends more productive, I try to finish the interruptive
boring work such as laundry etc on a weeknight when I don't feel like coding.
That way, I don't have to worry about it over the weekend.

------
psyklic
Take a night course where lectures are mandatory. You'll realize you somehow
make the time to attend class and do homework. Now just lead by example and
keep making the time, but with your business instead.

------
raffi
I find I have limited bandwidth for coding. In my last job, this capacity was
completely used. I put my energy and my ideas into my job and absolutely
nothing was left for building on the side.

My current job is still technical, but I'm not working as a coder. As such, I
have a lot of energy to put into a project. In fact, working on the project is
one of the things I look forward to when I get home.

Something to keep in mind when looking at a job. How much of your personal
capacity will be left when the day is over?

------
goodlab
I completely agree with those who suggest the early morning cycle. Especially
if you have a family. I wake up about 5/5:30 and a working in peace by 6 until
8. it gives me at least 2 hours of extremely productive time everyday.

This is how we built our current startup: votetocracy.com. When I try to work
at night - I have a hundred things floating in my head that distract me.

Another tip that has worked for me: Multi-tasking is bogus.

I have actually tested this with my own work life. I spent a week multi-
tasking. Where I decided on several multi-step projects that I wanted to
complete over the week and went about them by pushing he first tasks forward
one by one on each project on Monday. Then I kept pushing forward the next
task on each project. At the end of the week I had several things up in the
air. Mostly because I was waiting on others - or others were waiting on me
because I was busy doing another task on an another project.

The second trail was with a one project a week approach. The result: It got
done early. Those that I had to work on the project with didn't have to wait
for me. I didn't have to wait for them.

THe one project approach isn't always possible due to client demands and such.
But I do recommend picking at least one project among a few people and as much
as possible - limit the noise of other small interruptions and stay focused.

------
rokhayakebe
At the risk of repeating what fookyong said, have a very clear goal of what
you want to do. Then start executing one or two or three items daily.

For me I just finished my mvp for <http://democratic.ly> in 3 weeks. I worked
on it after 4pm on weekdays and during the weekend. If I was organized or had
more programming skills it could have been much less time to MVP. But from the
start I had a very clear goal.

------
jon914
On the commute back home, I set the night's agenda by listing out the 3 things
that I plan to accomplish. This way, I'm constantly moving forward each night
and am not left wondering "what should I do now?" when I reach my desk.

My other tip is to listen to your body's signals. If you're sputtering out,
grab a snack and walk around a bit. Speaking of which, it's about time for me
to do that right now!

------
bmcgavin
I work in a shared office building, and I take a laptop with a self-contained
test environment into my day job. I then spend lunch working in a quiet room
elsewhere in the building with no internet connection.

It works well for me because I'm awake and thinking about tech problems anyway
thanks to the morning, and an hour with no distractions is enough to make
small gains.

------
Mz
I've gotten a lot out of reading this discussion, but I will toss out the
additional suggestion that some tasks you think are necessary may not be. A
particular home and/or lifestyle may impose certain tasks and making other
choices may reduce those tasks. One obvious example: A house with a large yard
requires more maintenance outside than a house with a small yard. But there
are lots of things most people take as a given which aren't. If you really
just can't find the time, maybe you should track where your time is going and
explore the possibility of making some lifestyle changes which might free some
of that up. (As for the yard: I recall reading an anecdote once that some guy
that had been a devoted gardener discovered golf and basically paved over his
yard so he wouldn't have to fuss with it anymore. :-D)

------
mdoyle
Another thing is that I have a clear separation of work and home life. When I
leave the office then I don't think about it until I arrive the next day and
can generally wind down very quickly. I am probably fortunate that my work
does not demand too much overtime.

------
p01nd3xt3r
I wake up at 5 am every morning and code until 10 am on my startup then do
work from 10 until 6. I also spend the last 2 hours before bed planning and
doing any other startup task to make the 5 hours I spend in the morning
working more productive.

------
brudgers
Late in the evening and early in the morning are great times to work.

But neither necessarily coincides with your peak creative period.

The muse comes on her schedule and sleep is just something in the way.

When she's absent, you're just tacking more time onto a long day.

------
bermonpainter
Totally agree with @fookyong.

Don't build in the evening (unless you're single, then have at it). After a
long day of work, working more is the last thing I want to do. The wife and
kids need some attention.

Go to bed early (10pm-ish) with the fam then get up early. I get up at 5am
every morning. Your mind is fresh and invigorated. I find in the early hours
of the morning I'm very productive, I think clearer and my wife isn't bugging
me to come to bed every 15 minutes.

This is how I handle freelance and personal projects on top of the full-time
job. It gives me an extra 3 hours a day without wearing me out.

------
sievert
I like the ideas of getting up early to do work, I might try that. I'm usually
either really tired afterwork so just chill out then sleep, or I'm pumped up
and work until the wee hours of the morning.

Also don't underestimate how much time you can scratch on the job. I carry a
A4-size book around and jot down ideas, think through problems etc when we're
waiting for other people to get to a meeting or some other hold up. It all
adds up and saves being bored.

------
erken
Like most people here, I have another activity that prevents me from working
on my startup everyday. I try to divide the week like this : 4 days for my
first activity (Mon-Thurs), 3 days for my startup(Fri-Sun). This enables me to
work efficiently in both domains without thinking about the other one. Add in
a lot of sport and some nights out to unwind.

------
abukres
I stopped watching TV. It's boring anyways. I work from about 10-12:30AM. Make
sure you program only. Stay away from the web unless searching for help
related to coding.

I can't do the early morning thing. I sleep till the last minute before
getting ready for my day job.

(you have to love your day job to have energy for evening work)

------
JerryH
I do it when ever it feels right and I'm focused, when ever that might be.
Some days that's 8 hours straight, other days I go sit on the beach and think.

Nothing happens at 6am for me, so saying "everyone should do X" is about as
pointless as any other 1 rule for all or generalization.

~~~
JerryH
Oh and it's in a proper environment, i.e. not an office.

------
MLConsulting
This tip is awesome. I just got in to a 9 - 5 and have been trying to figure
out how to fit in my projects(what I live for) and this makes it oh so clear.
THANK YOU!

------
iworkforthem
i suggest u code/build yr biz in the early morning instead, say around 4-5 am,
wake up early, code like crazy for e 2-3 hrs. it's super productive when
compared to late nites. also, since you have kids, you need to plan out their
schedule properly, else they will need yr constant action. automate whenever
possible, if u must outsource be sure to review n measure e roi.

~~~
jarin
Translation: I suggest you code/build your business in the early morning
instead. Say around 4-5 am: wake up early and code like crazy for 2-3 hours.
It's super productive when compared to late nights. Also, since you have kids,
you need to plan out their schedule properly or else they will need your
constant attention. Automate whenever possible. If you must outsource, be sure
to review and measure effective ROI.

~~~
iworkforthem
Cheers Jarin.

~~~
polynomial
Meth is a terrible drug. <j/k>

------
capsule
Too late, you can't get rid of the kids now :-)

