
Can the new Firefox Quantum regain its web browser market share? - amosbatto
https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2017/11/21/mozilla-market-share/
======
muxator
Firefox on Andorid works flawlessly for me.

Plus, it's worth repeating that Firefox sync works without problem across
desktop and mobile. The sync [0] and auth [1] servers are open source, and one
could choose to use one or both on his premises.

IIRC, browser synchronization was a thing on Firefox well before it landed on
chrome.

[0] [https://mozilla-
services.readthedocs.io/en/latest/howtos/run...](https://mozilla-
services.readthedocs.io/en/latest/howtos/run-sync-1.5.html)

[1] [https://mozilla-
services.readthedocs.io/en/latest/howtos/run...](https://mozilla-
services.readthedocs.io/en/latest/howtos/run-fxa.html)

~~~
space_fountain
I've switched entirely to Firefox, but I have had some issues where I input an
address on Android and the Browser doesn't navigate.

~~~
janneklouman
Unfortunately I had the same issue on my Android phone - every time I re-
opened the app I had to open a new tab in order to browse. I ended up
installing and using Firefox Nightly instead (where the issue seems to be
resolved).

------
greenhouse_gas
No, because people don't switch to the best product, that switch away from the
worst.

People went to Firefox because it was head and shoulders better than IE6 for
regular use - popup blocking and tabbed browsing were the most obvious
examples, but even then (and being advertised on Google's front page), it only
for about 35% of the market.

Now let's say it'll be a bit faster than Chrome. Let's say it'll be twice
faster than Chrome, with better deep extensions coming back, it won't make a
difference. Chrome is too usable.

~~~
dcow
I switched to the new Firefox and removed chrome because I tried it and liked
it better, not because Chrome is the worst. Also I'm curious how people went
from Firefox to Chrome in the first place using your "move away from the
worst" logic. Certainly something else happened there or FF was much worst
than I remember.

~~~
Veen
But most people aren't even going to try Firefox. Unless Google do something
seriously stupid with Chrome, the average user has no incentive to move.
Chrome is good enough.

~~~
squid_ca
I don't know, I feel like many people started using Chrome because technical-
minded folk recommended it to them (certainly, I told many family members to
switch to it). So, maybe the same thing will happen with Firefox (I have just
switched from Chrome to Firefox and am prepared to recommend it as someone's
default browser).

~~~
addicted
Looking towards technical minded relatives and friends definitely helped, but
what really pushed Chrome over the top IMO was Google.com, Gmail, Youtube,
Google Docs, Google Calendar, Hangouts, etc. all insisting you must use
Chrome.

~~~
addicted
To explain why I think this, the Quality delta between Firefox and IE when
Firefox reached about 20-30% marketshare was orders of magnitude greater than
the delta between Chrome and Firefox over the period Chrome managed to push to
60-70% marketshare.

------
dsff56
I stopped using firefox since they are delivering cliqz with every 100th
download which will analyze and store your browsing history and is a shame for
the mozilla foundation. I'm using waterfox now btw...

~~~
dcow
But at least Mozilla is up front and transparent about what it's doing. I'd
love to know the extent of what Google/Chrome is doing...

~~~
forapurpose
> Mozilla is up front and transparent about what it's doing

A statement in a blog that only a tiny percentage of users will read is not at
all transparent.

Do users who receive browsers with Cliqz get a clear, effective opt-out
warning? Really, it should be opt-in but that doesn't appear to be the case:

The users _will receive a version of Firefox with Cliqz recommendations
enabled out of the box._

[https://blog.mozilla.org/press-uk/2017/10/06/testing-
cliqz-i...](https://blog.mozilla.org/press-uk/2017/10/06/testing-cliqz-in-
firefox/)

~~~
dao-
> Do users who receive browsers with Cliqz get a clear, effective opt-out
> warning? Really, it should be opt-in

Either way would render the experiment useless (self-selection bias).
Obviously if something like this should make it into Firefox proper, that
would make something like an opt-out warning a hard requirement.

~~~
Silhouette
_Either way would render the experiment useless (self-selection bias)._

But that is Mozilla's problem, not their users'.

As probably would be the legal position in many places, if news of this got
out more widely and regulators started getting involved. It's hard to see how
this wouldn't fall foul of even general EU data protection laws today, never
mind anything stronger that is specific to Germany.

~~~
dao-
> But that is Mozilla's problem, not their users'.

Sure, I'm just telling you how we arrived at the current situation and why
your proposed alternative is a nonstarter for an experiment that tries to
figure out if this feature adds user value in the first place.

------
einrealist
Well, it got my market share back.

I really like the new version. And I am glad to have switched back from
Chrome, because I really like what Mozilla is doing - not just with Firefox.

------
robertlagrant
Does the new Firefox have a password sync feature like Chrome's? I'd much
rather trust Mozilla with that sort of thing (especially if I could host my
own backend to it somewhere) than Google.

As an aside, one silly thing that tarnished Mozilla's brand for me was the
treatment of Brendan Eich. I may not agree with his donation of money but I
think impinging on his rights is a far more fundamental immorality than what
he was accused of.

It's like Twitter's controversy over blue ticks. If they'd only given them as
a result of identity verification, and not used them to indicate Twitter's
approval of someone's beliefs, then they wouldn't be where they are now.

Stick to good tech and fighting for relevant causes, e.g. net neutrality, I
say.

~~~
Frondo
Eich did not have his rights impinged on. He chose to resign--he _chose_ that
--because the community far beyond Mozilla didn't approve of his donations and
he saw that he'd lost a lot of people's trust in him. His actions had
consequences, which he recognized and owned.

He has, presumably, gone on to find other work, _after resigning_ , he still
has a platform, he can still talk and associate freely.

You can dislike the fact that he resigned, but blaming anyone for his actions
but him doesn't make sense.

~~~
greggarious
>Eich did not have his rights impinged on. He chose to resign--he chose that--
because the community far beyond Mozilla didn't approve of his donations and
he saw that he'd lost a lot of people's trust in him. His actions had
consequences, which he recognized and owned.

Yes, this is a key point people forget. No one fired Eich. However, a large
chunk of Mozilla's open source contributors (along with a decent chunk of
their paid employees) were ready to resign.

Eich may not have had good politics, but he legitimately cared about the
organization and was not going to let it implode on his account.

Funny how so-called-libertarians love at will employment until it's used to
pressure a bigot to resign.

~~~
bzbarsky
> However, a large chunk of Mozilla's open source contributors (along with a
> decent chunk of their paid employees) were ready to resign.

Citation, please. I'm a Mozilla employee, and was a Mozilla employee at the
time. I'm not going to claim everyone was ecstatic about things; there was a
lot of soul-searching going on for some people. But I don't recall any
"Mozilla employees", in the sense of people working for the Mozilla
Corporation, saying they would resign, nor calling for Brendan to do so.

There _were_ a few such calls from interns, and a few employees, at the
Mozilla Foundation. People who were not involved in Firefox in any way, did
not know Brendan, and were not relevant to the things that Mozilla is actually
known for doing.

Of course the press spun the story in such a way as to make it seem like there
was mass unhappiness internally... And most people read the press spin, not
the actual blog posts actual Mozilla employees were writing at the time.

~~~
greggarious
>Citation, please. I'm a Mozilla employee, and was a Mozilla employee at the
time. I'm not going to claim everyone was ecstatic about things; there was a
lot of soul-searching going on for some people. But I don't recall any
"Mozilla employees", in the sense of people working for the Mozilla
Corporation, saying they would resign, nor calling for Brendan to do so.

I'm not saying there was an organized "we, a group, will resing". I'm only
repeating what I was told hanging out on the deck during one of the cantinas -
that there would have be a lot of turnover if he hadn't left :)

IIRC Eich indirectly acknowledged this when he resigned when he said he didn't
want to hurt Mozilla.

~~~
BrendanEich
No, I did not acknowledge that. Stop putting your preferred narrow
interpretation on a (too-broad) fact pattern and then attributing your
interpretation to me. Doing so takes a low road and can be used against your
views as well as for them.

~~~
greggarious
I didn't mean to imply you did.

I was merely pointing out that it is my understanding that you resigned, that
you mentioned care for Mozilla as why you did, and that many people would have
resigned if you hadn't. I thought I made that clear when I said "indirectly
acknowledged". I guess my understanding was wrong. Sorry for that.

I definitely don't want to take a low road. We never met, but even the people
who disagreed with your politics all thought you were a pleasant person and
would mention missing you at the various company events. I hope you know that.

~~~
BrendanEich
"many people would have resigned" is unfalsifiable, but if you mean the six
Mozilla Foundation employees who tweeted on day 2 that I should resign, those
people never worked for me. For whatever reason they almost all resigned for
other jobs within a year of my leaving, anyway. I hope you weren't thinking of
them when making the "would have resigned" imponderable claim.

------
TAForObvReasons
The privacy-conscious / anti-Google crowd isn't large enough to move the
needle. For Firefox to regain market share, one of two things must happen:

1) Google makes a really poor decision (e.g. disabling ad blockers, charging
$$)

2) Mozilla partners with existing web apps or they build their own web apps
with extra value that is only available in Firefox (in the same way that
Google sites generally perform better on Chrome than FF)

~~~
LocutusOfBorges
Banking on web apps to save Firefox won't work out while the browser continues
to not support CSS styling of scrollbars. It's so fundamental to so many
modern web apps- and a major part of why they tend to feel slightly worse on
Firefox.

The bug's 17 years old now.

[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77790](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77790)

~~~
dao-
Maybe it's just me but the scrollbar thing doesn't look like a game changer to
me. Could you be overestimating the severity of a personal pet peeve?

~~~
Sylos
Not to mention that many users will very much be a fan of having recognizable
scrollbars everywhere.

------
kk_cz
Non-tech folks don't care about rendering engine. They might fall for tons of
advertisment that Chrome had or they might be force-fed a new browser with a
new computer or OS purchase, none of these things are going to happen for FF.

Tech folks might care about shiny new engine, but they are also more likely to
care about their favorite extensions not working anymore. I personally
wouldn't be surprised if FF actually lost some share in the long run, but
that's just my dissapointment talking.

I know for certain that if something like waterfox keeps old extensions
running I will gladly give up Quantum for a better UX.

~~~
Gaelan
"New engine" may not matter, but "fast" probably does.

~~~
kk_cz
My experience is anecdotal of course, but IMHO "fast" is something tech savy
users are looking for. "Which one is the Internet" or "I know this icon from a
big shiny ad" is how non-tech folks function.

Full disclaimer: Years spent supporting end users might have negatively
affected my view of the "average user".

~~~
Sylos
Yeah, I do think your view is a bit skewed. There's an ever-growing number of
users that grew up with computers, who know at least how to install a
different program on their own, despite most definitely not being a techie
either.

And even among techies, I think you overestimate how many actually care about
much else than "fast" when it comes to a browser. Just look at how many
techies run Chrome. It's usually not the most wizardly of techies, but a good
number of techies either way.

------
mrolla
I have been using Firefox again for a while now after completing my Google
exit and I’m enjoying every single day with Quantum. The real game changer for
me was the introduction of container though. I only wish they also had
separated history.

------
topranks
Nothing but negative comments here.

Longtime FF user but I gotta say the new version is great. MUCH faster than
the old version or Chrome.

Great work Mozilla. Feck the begruders!

~~~
betterunix2
Yeah, nothing like waking up one day and discovering that my add-ons have all
been disabled...

~~~
KozmoNau7
_All_ of them? Really?

~~~
betterunix2
Yes, really. Why should that surprise you? The majority of XUL extensions had
not been ported to WebExtensions when Mozilla pushed this update and Mozilla
was well aware of that fact. This was executed poorly and Mozilla deserves to
be criticized for it.

~~~
LocutusOfBorges
Mozilla gave extension authors multiple years of notice. I don't see what else
they _could_ have done, realistically speaking.

~~~
thinkingemote
XUL extensions e.g. the user interface could not be ported, the notice they
were given was "this will stop your extension working" with users being given
the advice from advocates "don't worry we'll build some replacement APIs
sometime soon..."

------
blauditore
Well, large parts of Chrome's market share is caused by their aggressive
marketing, which is likely quite effective with casual users. And those
probably won't switch for performance or privacy reasons.

------
tolien
> Firefox can take comfort in the fact that it is now virtually tied with its
> former arch-nemesis, Internet Explorer and its variants.

Instead of an IE monoculture, we now have a WebKit/Blink one:

Chrome: 54.57%

Safari: 14.59%

Alibaba UC Browser: 7.86%

Opera: 3.89%

Samsung Internet: 3.41%

Android: 1.90%

That's a total of 86.22%. Plus ça change.

------
maephisto
No, no chance Firefox could get back to owning 20% or 30% again. Just look
around you, how many of the people you know made the switch? Most of the
people I know gave the new FF a try, concluded that it's fine and got back to
Chrome. Right now, there's just no reason to switch. Also, everybody's going
about FF consuming less memory than Chrome, but in my short personal test
there was no real difference.

------
cdevs
Long time Firefox user every since I left safari I tried Firefox and chrome
and didn't like chrome at all. Now I only run some linux with Firefox but have
chrome only as a back up to test or if YouTube has a glitchy anti Firefox day.

------
shmerl
I think currently, market share isn't dictated by quality, but more by pushing
stuff on users (Google is really obnoxious with it).

So it's not as much of a technical problem, as a marketing one.

May be mandating browser choice for mobile devices could help it, including
forcing Apple to remove the ban on competing browsers, which really should
have been tackled by anti-trust a long time ago.

------
clw8
After my first few hours using desktop Quantum I thought for sure I was
switching away from Chrome. But then videos stopped playing (audio would play
and the video would just be black) and didn't work again until restarting the
browser. And then it just kept happening every time it had been open for a
couple hours. Back to Chrome for now.

~~~
acdha
Did you report the problem? Given how many video-related problems end up being
caused by drivers that seems like it'd be a potential entry on the blacklist.

------
gator-io
Browser share trends with bot traffic removed:

[https://truemarketshare.com](https://truemarketshare.com)

We may post some daily numbers after the holidays.

------
cygx
Note that while Chrome is currently the top browser in Germany, it's still not
as big as Firefox used to be:

[https://imgur.com/a/dx5n8](https://imgur.com/a/dx5n8)

 _wishes Mozilla luck in reversing the downward trend_

------
ianlevesque
I tried it for a week hoping to reduce the amount of swapping my laptop did
during a normal workday. It wasn’t any better than chrome unfortunately and
due to the lack of workaround extensions like the Great Suspender it was
actually worse.

~~~
megiddo
I found it worse. I was playing process kill whackamole for a week.

~~~
switchbak
I'm in the same boat, but the progress they have been making as of late is
really impressive, and it was markedly better than the last time I tried it.

Will probably try again in another 6-8 months. I have problems with Chrome
eating tons of memory, hoping the new FF gets a lot leaner (and robust) as
their newer tech gets integrated. Plus, the blog posts on their usage of Rust
are really fun to read!

------
mattkevan
The new version of Firefox is great. And a massive improvement over previous
versions.

However I think Mozilla have a lot of work to do. Desktop browsing is pretty
much legacy at this point so convincing mobile users to use something other
than the default browser will be hard.

I work on a site with 8 figure monthly unique visits and the browser stats are
startling.

iOS Safari had about 51%, Chrome mobile & desktop about 35%, Samsung browser
at 7%. Nothing else has over 2-3%. Edge, for example, is a rounding error.

------
bluedino
Maybe they need to strike deals to come preisntalled with systems or other
software? A browser is just a "the internet" to a majority of people.

~~~
paprikka
I used to work with a developer who'd preach the "IceWeasel is the ultimate
browser" gospel to us. I guess this makes your argument somehow more valid:)

OS might be hard, as Win and Mac have their own browsers, so my first guess
would be Linux or security focused builds of Android. This doesn't sound like
enough exposure to make a significant/disruptive change.

I expect Mozilla to be more active in this area though. Yes, performance is
important and I switched to FF recently too, but I'm still using Electron
powered apps on my MacBook.

What's more plausible is a situation where Chrome for some reason (ekhm...
privacy?) loses market share to FF/IE/Safari. Having more competition will
make my browser better, regardless of my choice.

~~~
JetSpiegel
> Linux

Firefox is the default browser in virtually all distros, even Debian.

As for Android, to make a difference it would need to be installed in Gapps-
by-default phones, so Google would have to concede. Maybe if the EU hits them
with an antitrust lawsuit Microsoft-style, otherwise it's not gonna happen.

------
needz
Firefox Quantum kills the battery on my Macbook. I love it otherwise.

~~~
dao-
Are you using scaled resolution? Then it's a known issue that is being
investigated and will hopefully be fixed soon:
[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404042](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404042)

~~~
needz
I was using scaled resolution. Switched to default; will report back.

Edit: Been at 100% for 10 minutes. Much, much better. If anyone knows how to
set default zoom on Firefox it'd be greatly appreciated.

~~~
dao-
Try setting layout.css.devPixelsPerPx to e.g. 2 in about:config?

~~~
needz
Didn't have any noticeable effect for me.

~~~
dao-
Well, maybe it already was 2 by default (-1.0 means auto-detect). Maybe try
different values.

------
nly
I'm holding on to FF56 until an equivalent to my beloved tab tree extension[0]
is available

[0] [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tab-
tree/](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tab-tree/)

~~~
sldenazis
Did you see this
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15342362](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15342362)
?

------
JoshMnem
For anyone that thought that Microsoft was changing its ways, that should be a
big warning:

> Even worse, the new Windows 10 S operating system prohibits the installation
> of any apps which do not come from the Windows Store, so it is impossible to
> install Firefox on devices running Windows 10 S.

------
beausy
Everyone keeps talking about how Firefox is faster than Chrome, but for me
Chrome is night and day faster at rendering. And that's comparing Chrome with
about a dozen extensions vs a fresh install of Quantum. And yes, that's
without cache

------
dsp1234
This morning I came into work to a sluggish FF browser. One of the FF
processes was using 1.6GB of memory, and one entire core of CPU. I had 1
pinned and 5 normal tabs open. I'm not particularly impressed with the reality
of the new FF.

------
popee
Just installed 57 to give it a try. Damn it's friking good, gj mozilla!

------
campuscodi
No. Most of today's users are using mobiles to surf the web. The new Firefox
version is a gamechanger on desktop, but on par with Chrome and other mobile
browsers.

~~~
lucideer
For me, Quantum is the first usable Firefox version on mobile. I've been
trialing various versions of it over the years in desperate hope that it would
get to a usable state, because the mobile browser ecosystem is bleak other
than Firefox - it's the only browser with actual features I want. I was only
held back from it by performance.

So in that sense, I'd say it's a complete gamechanger on mobile, much more
than on desktop.

~~~
seren
And yet all the Quantum code is not yet on Firefox Android 57, so it will get
actually better quickly.

~~~
bobajeff
Yeah but it's still noticably more usable because of the UI change in this
release. It basically looks more like Chrome for Android; where as before it
looked like a Android Cupcake app.

------
k__
I think it's pretty rad, but some nontechnical people who use FF for years now
say they didn't notice much, just that the have to learn a new UI

------
raincom
Mozilla should fix battery drain issues on Macbooks. I used FireFox Quantum
for a couple weeks and dumped it y'day due to its battery abuse.

~~~
dao-
Let me paste my answer to another user reporting (seemingly) the same issue:

Are you using scaled resolution? Then it's a known issue that is being
investigated and will hopefully be fixed soon:
[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404042](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404042)

~~~
raincom
I did not change any default settings for FF 57.

Just checked the config: layout.css.devPixelsPx, default, string, -1.0

Edit: Checked the screen resolution as well: it is default, but not scaled.

------
arthurfm
> Even worse is Google’s policy of prohibiting the installation of 3rd party
> web browsers on Chrome OS devices. Firefox simply can’t be installed on any
> Chromebook.

The Android version of Firefox can be installed on Chrome OS though.

------
mtgx
It can, but Quantum was basically just the _very start_ of that journey.
They'll need to try and keep one step ahead of Chrome with every release. If
they can do that, they'll rebuild the following.

------
osrec
Generally, the new FF is great. One small criticism - their GPU accelerated
CSS animations are a bit choppy on mobiles (these a generally very smooth on
chrome and Safari).

~~~
muizelaar
What platform? Do you have an example url?

~~~
osrec
Also, noticed another thing - on Android, using FF nightly, I couldn't access
a local network URL via FF (Unable to connect message), but could with Chrome
- example URL [http://10.0.130.64/path](http://10.0.130.64/path)

~~~
morsch
Accessing my router on [http://192.168.1.1/](http://192.168.1.1/) works fine
for me. Firefox beta 58 on Android 7.

------
rebelwebmaster
Firefox' path to market share growth has to go through mobile. How to get
users to switch from preinstalled good-enough Chrome is the tough nut to
crack, though.

~~~
mst
I wonder if the EU will start to consider the situations with iOS and Android
equivalent to Microsoft bundling IE ... giving users an obvious post-install
choice might help a lot.

~~~
gsnedders
Neither iOS nor Android are over 90% marketshare, as Windows was at the time
of the anti-trust bundling case.

------
have_faith
I love FireFox, it's been my primary browser for many years but this is a drop
in the bucket of what would make a regular user switch browsers.

------
cmurf
I've been using Firefox Focus on Android for most things, and if they don't
work then I use regular Firefox. I rarely have to use Chrome.

------
justinzollars
So happy with Firefox and the Open Web concept. I've completely switched and
happy to stop using Google and Apple products. #openweb

------
mpg515
FFQ is my new daily driver for regular browsing but I will still be developing
with Chrome

------
andyhoang
still check if pitch to zoom available every week from FF. My eyes is not good
without zooming :(

------
zitterbewegung
Yes

------
rem1313
It is not as fast as advertised. It is not even 'fast', composing emails in
Google Inbox web app is laggy AF...

~~~
mistahchris
Google Inbox web app is laggy af in Chrome for me, honestly. I use it for
work. I'm on Firefox Nightly and it's super fast everywhere except for the
Google Web Apps (which aren't butter smooth on any browser, even Chrome).

------
LeoJiWoo
Quantum was annoying enough to kill Firefox for me completely. I've completely
shifted.

EDIT: Added explanation

The big issue is I often switch between Browsers for work. So I often switch
between Chrome, Firefox, and Opera with custom extensions for my workflow.

With the amount of choice, I don't need to stick with a browser that makes my
life harder than easier.

Chrome is my main browser now, it was already getting close to majority usage
for me.

~~~
ancarda
What did you switch to? Was it due to extensions?

~~~
nwah1
I feel like there's a lot of anti-Mozilla trolls on this particular comments
section. Compared to most other articles on HN, it just doesn't align with the
views I've heard elsewhere, and certainly doesn't align with my experience as
a happy Firefox user.

~~~
kk_cz
How do you tell "anti-Mozilla troll" from a genuinely dissapointed user? I'm
currently on FF ESR, once my favorite extentsions stop working there I might
as well switch the browser completely, since my UX will be completely reset
just as it would be with a entirely different browser.

I'm not saying I will switch to something else (other browsers seem equally
unusable to me as FF57 is currently), but I will certainly try all the options
to find out if something else isn't at least marginally better than FF57.

