
Ask HN: How to succeed in tech as an introvert? - fromtheshadows
Just some background: Currently a student and introverted to a large extent. I tend to avoid company parties or any other large gatherings. I&#x27;m intimidated whenever I intern at a new company because it seems like every other intern is outgoing and making the most out of their experience. Just as an example, some interns invite random people working in completely different departments to lunch. I&#x27;ve noticed most people who go out of their way to do things like this do go on to to be successful in general.<p>So my question is, knowing that I&#x27;m (very) introverted, how do you think I should change or improve myself to have a more successful career?
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Mz
I am an extrovert. I had a corporate job for over five years. During that
time, I was too sick to glad-hand everyone I met like I might have done in my
twenties.

For this reason, I did a lot of communicating via email. I felt like I wasn't
doing as well as the more extroverted types who were more obviously able to
suck up to our immediate superiors.

Then me and some of my teammates were moved to a new team. My very
professional and established track record of sending emails most of the time
meant my questions were still getting the answer I needed. The seemingly
successful extroverts were incredibly frustrated and tearing their hair out.
They didn't know how to function in the new conditions. They began turning to
me for advice on how to get things done on the new team, physically separated
from the people they had established relationships with.

Learn to play to your strengths. Being an extrovert isn't necessarily all it
is cracked up to be. Most of those so-called friendships are more shallow than
you think.

If you can find a nice and sympathetic extrovert, they may be able to do some
introductions and the like for you and bring down your stress levels. I did
that sort of thing sometimes for a painfully shy teammate. But, beyond that,
don't believe too much of the hype.

~~~
fromtheshadows
Thank you, this advice means a lot. Email is something I never thought of and
I definitely plan on doing more of it from now on.

~~~
cookiecaper
I'm going to warn against it. Overdependence on email has hurt my career on
several occasions. Most people hate reading work emails and they will resent
you for making them do it (read: they usually won't do it at all; at best,
expect them to skim). The best work emails are short -- and I mean short, like
two sentences short.

Email can be a useful tool and learning to communicate over a distance is
really important, but I can't help but think you're going to hurt yourself if
you see email as a substitute for face-to-face.

~~~
Mz
There are times when face-to-face really matters and I did tell that to my
frustrated coworkers. But their heavy reliance on face-to-face broke when
things changed. So, it isn't inherently better in all ways, for all things.

I did make sure to get with someone in person (with a printed version of the
files I was working on) for certain thorny issues. But if you communicate well
and succinctly via email, about 90%-95% of routine stuff at my job that
required input from one of my superiors could be effectively handled by email.
This eliminated the need to try to arrange face-to-face time, which can be
logistically challenging when you both have busy schedules and deadlines.

This was a big stress point for coworkers of mine who learned the hard way
that, no, your boss that you are squeeing at all the time is not actually your
friend. I cultivated a professional relationship with my superiors. I was not
able to squee at them and suck up and blather on. I was too sick to do all
that stuff.

They didn't need to like me. They did need to respect my competence, answer my
work related questions and sign off on things above my pay grade that required
authorization. I was still getting that after the new team was formed and
lacked a dedicated lead, so everyone was still required to seek certain things
from our old lead, whomever that happened to be, until they could free up
resources and assign a lead to the team. Other people were tearing their hair
out.

Email does not work for everything. But if you learn to communicate well via
email, for many things, it is actually superior to face time because you have
a written record of your boss's authorization, professional opinion or the
resource they directed you to. It isn't your word against theirs if something
goes wrong. There is a paper trail. If you, in fact, did as you were told and
it was the wrong thing, they go after your boss, not you. If they told you
verbally and are not some kind of paladin-like being, the odds are high that
you and they will "remember" it differently and you are the one that will take
the fall.

~~~
cookiecaper
I agree to an extent. It's definitely beneficial to get a paper trail when you
can. However, bosses know about the radioactive nature of email and actively
avoid creating a trail for anything they're not willing to get on paper. It's
also useful to know how to write an email that will get a task done and move
things along.

However, I have to disagree 1000% on it not mattering if someone "likes" you.
It matters a great deal. Of course, being an obvious brownnoser is
contemptible. But being well-liked is the most important task of any and every
employee. When push comes to shove, it's going to be easier for them to
overlook your professional inadequacies than it will be to overlook their
personal affectations.

------
world2jsj
I recently read a post on Quora that asked how an introvert could succeed as a
doctor.

Like that poster, it seems you are experiencing more than introversion.
Perhaps you are shy and/or suffer from social anxiety. These are distinct from
introversion and can be treated. Introversion by itself is nothing to worry
about.

[1] [https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-place-in-medical-school-
for...](https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-place-in-medical-school-for-an-
introvert)

------
dannybirch
I am an introvert software engineer, but I let my code do the talking and I
take on mostly purely technical roles. I am a little shy and awkward at times
but I can do my job just as good as if I wasn't an introvert.

I guess it's just about finding the right job for you, my advice would be if
you love what you do don't let being an introvert divert your passion. Some of
the best colleague programmers I have ever met were introverts.

~~~
3minus1
> let my code do the talking

this is really it in a nutshell. we're here to make software, not to make
friends. if you have the technical skills then you can do just fine for
yourself.

~~~
cookiecaper
This is true, but please do be aware that any social grace you can pick up
will go a long way, and that someone with this attitude will never
successfully progress into a managerial role.

~~~
rak00n
Not only that. In order to work with other people you have to understand them
to certain extent in order to have a peaceful coexistence​. Having social
grace is an essential quality to work with other people even if you don't want
to be a manager.

------
cookiecaper
Go to company parties. Skipping them hurts.

At the intern level, the most important thing you can do is build firm
relationships with the people that are immediately associated with your work.
Focus on impressing a substantial subset of them. In engineering, you'll lose
credibility by looking too "businessy" and requesting lunch meetings with
everyone and their dog.

Practice talking to people. Practice meeting new people. Go somewhere where
you introduce yourself to strangers. Do this over and over and over again
until you're good at breaking the ice and feel fine in a room full of new
faces. That's really all you need.

The people requesting lunches from random people are not doing it because
they're extroverted. Meeting new people/establishing new relationships is a
high-energy thing and it's not likely they're excited about it either. They're
doing it because they are consciously trying to expand their network.

Your network is critically important, but you don't have to go breadth-first.
I'd suggest depth-first is better. Build stronger relationships with fewer
people who are localized to your target expertise for now.

------
Arizhel
I recommend looking for a new career path. Software is no place for
introverts. You were born a few decades too late: back in the good ol' days,
software was a good place for someone who liked a quiet office environment
with their own office or cubicle, who'd be left alone most of the time to get
their work done by themselves. Not any more. Now it's a "team sport" as
'timfrietas' says here: you're going to be in a noisy open-plan office
environment with people interrupting you constantly. It's absolutely the wrong
environment for an introvert. You're still a student, so you can change majors
now and go into something more suitable for introverts, unlike us older guys
who are now stuck. Sorry, I wish I had some more positive advice for you.

~~~
nshung
I don't agree that "software is no place for introverts". There are definitely
many software engineers out there who are introverts. You just have to find an
environment and team mates that are welcoming and accept you as who you are.

~~~
Arizhel
Yeah, but you'll never get any peace or privacy away from them. Welcoming
teammates does not make work bearable when they're on top of you all day long
because of the open-plan office.

~~~
cookiecaper
It really depends on how you go about it. Software engineers are one of the
few professionals that can do well for themselves working remotely from a home
office. You won't make any political progress this way, but you can be a happy
code monkey. It takes some effort to find good positions that accommodate
this, but they do exist.

Source: over the last 8 years, I've spent a cumulative 1 year working in an
office, and the remaining 7 from home.

~~~
Arizhel
From everything I've seen and read, these positions are becoming more and more
rare.

------
timfrietas
Hello fromtheshadows,

I will give you two pieces of advice you may think conflict, but they do not.

1) Your fellow interns might be trying too hard. You may be too young to
recognize this but unless they are truly exceptionally gifted social animals
(hint: they are probably not) they are trying very very hard to gain favor
with senior management who will ultimately make the decision to hire or
recommend them to other roles. This does not always work; it can work if they
are genuinely personable (some actually are), and it can sometimes work if
they are not but there are weak personalities in senior positions who think
"this person must deserve it because they tried so hard too engage people".
Just know that not every super-networker is admired by those they are trying
to connect (read: brownnose) with. Ignore them and focus on yourself.

2) Software is a team sport. If you can't engineer as a team with your fellow
developers; if you can't disagree yet compromise or think one one way but be
swayed by another engineer's point of view; if you can't learn from the senior
mentors who are teaching you that software is in part a social activity, well,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're not likely to achieve the full
potential of an exceptional software developer. You can get a job in the
industry, surely, but you'll never be as truly valuable as someone who can
communicate effectively with their peers. It isn't about being a hit at
parties--but being someone whose opinion people can trust because you listen
and thus people listen to you. This requires non-zero social skills, but you
don't have to invite the Marketing team to play air hockey after work--you
just need to be able to understand what you're building and why and ask for
clarity if you are ever unclear. This DOES extend beyond your core engineering
team (e.g., this means you have to talk to your product owner and other
stakeholders). You have to be able to communicate with those people not just
now but forever in this industry. If you just can't, either consider another
role or consider a narrow, well-defined individual contributor role at a well-
established company where you are ok with not advancing.

Do you need to change yourself? It is hard to say; I am not sure how old you
are and where you are at in your career. But do be a team player who is
curious; just know that you don't have to drink a gallon of beer or play ping
pong until 9pm to be respected--you just have to be a good listener, a good
asker of questions and someone people look forward to collaborating with.

------
bsvalley
In today's world you won't pass the interview process as an introvert. You
have to come up strong and confident otherwise interviewers (other dev folks)
will eat you alive during technical interviews.

Long story short, it has become the most competitive field in the world. The
Zuckerberg era is over. You need to talk a lot, friends, an active network,
warm introductions, etc to make it pass the interview process. Otherwise you
will hear things like "lack of passion", "not a culture fit", etc.

~~~
pesfandiar
Being an introvert is not the same as weakness and lack of confidence. A
confident introvert can exert social forces to look bubbly during an
interview.

~~~
bsvalley
Sure... Being a software engineer is not the same as doing whiteboaring all
day. But guess what, %80 of the final decision is based on your whiteboarding
performance.

The interview process is so unfair and broken, anything not standard will go
against you. Companies focus on the negatives and forget about all the
positive things you've done. To get hired you need to score 100 (positive) - 0
(negative). Being an introvert is not a big deal but it'll be seen as
something that can impact your performance at work => "and for this reason -
I'm out" :) Shark tank style.

------
CyberFonic
Just because somebody is an extrovert doesn't mean that they will be
successful. Regardless of your personality you need to produce good work and
get recognition for it. Extroverts simply seem to be better at blowing their
own horn. But if they don't produce they will be quickly found out.

In my experience you have a great deal to gain from join a local Toastmasters
chapter. Not only will they help you overcome your social anxiety, but you
will also gain skills to become a more effective communicator.

~~~
fromtheshadows
I never meant to imply extroversion == success. I was just saying how, from
what I've experienced, most people doing extraverted activities tend to be
successful. Toastmasters sounds like a great idea! I am, however, 99% sure
that I don't suffer from any sort of social anxiety. You can read my other
comment on this. To add to it, I have no trouble talking to new people; I'm
just not a huge fan of it due to my inherent introversion.

~~~
cookiecaper
If you don't think there's a major underlying issue, Toastmasters is perfect.
You just need to get used to meeting people and practice breaking the ice and
you should have no problem. Do everything you can to get experience with this
until you feel 0 reticence.

You don't necessarily have to start inviting random people to lunch, but being
able to break the ice and being comfortable around new people is important.
Other people are feeling that anxiety too and it's stopping them from getting
out what they want. Practice until you become so good you can put the room at
ease and make it easy for others to get out what they want to contribute and
your skills will be highly valued.

------
freedomben
Leverage written communication. I'm somewhat introverted myself and I've
worked with people who were very introverted. You'd be amazed at how well
written communication can make up for infrequent and awkward social
interaction. You may also find that you become more comfortable with people
through writing and that helps things flow IRL.

What I would guard against is under-communicating. Don't allow your social
aversion to hinder your communication. Bosses and teammates strongly prefer
people who communicate what they are working on, what problems they are
encountering, and what their expectations are. If people don't hear from you,
they'll also tend to think you are slacking off. Never assume that people will
see the code and know you're working. I've been burned by this. It's better to
under-code and over-communicate, than the other way around.

------
wingerlang
I think introversion is not what you are describing as the issue, it sounds
more like some social anxiety.

~~~
fromtheshadows
I'm pretty confident it isn't social anxiety. I'm great at talking to people
I'm comfortable with, almost to a point that I love socializing with them.
With people that I've just met, however, it's different.

~~~
saghm
I can relate a lot to what you've described; I've always felt uncomfortable in
large social gatherings, especially with people I'm not familiar with. When
interning at the company I work full-time at now, I knew of several interns
who acted like you described (i.e. getting lunch with random coworkers from
different departments), and I never felt comfortable to do the same. In my
experience as an intern, it matters more to make connections with your
mentors/teammates who you're working with over the course of your internship,
since they're the ones who'll be providing the majority of the meaningful
feedback that determines whether you get a return offer. That being said, it
can be worth going out of your comfort zone sometimes! Meeting new people is
something that will happen a lot over the course of your career, so my advice
would be to focus on making a good impression when you do happen to meet new
people rather than going out of your way to make a bunch of connections.
Barring a toxic work environment, you'll do fine as long as you have a good
relationship with your teammates and immediate superior and don't actively
alienate anyone else.

(For what it's worth, I've seen quite a few threads like this that seem to get
responses saying that the OP has such and such psychological condition; it
kind of astounds me how so many people a feel that it's prudent to provide a
stranger with unsolicited medical diagnoses based on a couple paragraphs they
posted on the internet. You're under no obligation to respond to them, so feel
free to disregard them if you'd prefer to.)

~~~
fromtheshadows
Thank you for your advice! I definitely try my best to have genuine
conversations and connections with my teammates and will continue to do so.

I was kind of surprised by the many comments saying I suffer from social
anxiety, but I figured their lack of information about me lead to their
diagnoses. So, I hope they think otherwise after my responses and instead
provide great advice like yours.

------
Myrmornis
Don't be distracted from delivering the highest quality most thoughtful work
and contributions you can, that's what will count most. Use your social/verbal
communication time efficiently; e.g. help others on your team, and be seen to
do so. Otherwise you can ignore all the extroverted people and their
gibbering. All the intelligent people in tech know that meetings are nearly
always extremely inefficient and that people's off-the-cuff output in meetings
is much lower quality than thoughtful written output. So don't worry about it;
just concentrate on excelling at the stuff you love and fuck all the
extroverted meeting-oriented stuff, it's nearly all nonsense.

------
Mendenhall
First be comfortable with it, introvert and proud. Be comfortable Not talking
to people,its ok. If you are at some gathering learn to be completely comfy
sitting alone and chillin. No one there is more important than you, so who
cares what they think. People are drawn to people who are comfortable with
themselves even if not outgoing.

Be quick to smile and look people in the eye.

Practice by simply giving someone a compliment (that you mean). "nice tie" "I
dig your hair" whatever.

I find large gatherings tedious and people draining but oddly at this point I
am really well received, mostly because "I dont care" and a smile goes a long
way.

~~~
wruza
>be comfortable with it, introvert and proud

That's the hardest thing to understand. I had all these issues until I
realized that: A) me is me, and it is permanent (and I _am_ important to me);
B) my empathy and caring what others think is mostly my own illusion.

Meta-issue is that 'be comfortable' is probably a thing that doesn't come
easily. First step for me was to start to accept future uncomfortable
situations, instead of trying to prevent them. Acceptance is not a comfort,
but it leads to it.

~~~
SnacksOnAPlane
I'd just like to say that it isn't permanent. You can change. I used to be
extremely introverted; now I'm extremely extroverted. I still need a certain
amount of alone time, and I'm fine with that, but I'm no longer what I would
consider "shy". And yes, there is a difference between "shy" and
"introverted", but I think that in a lot of cases people who say they're
introverted actually have social anxiety, which you can absolutely conquer.

~~~
cookiecaper
Yes, this is very important. We give up way too much in modern society. "I
can't help it", "I'm stuck like this", or "there's nothing I can do" are cop
outs 99.99999% of the time.

Change is not always easy, but it is nearly always possible. Don't believe
defeatists who want you to believe that you're stuck (a belief they usually
push because they benefit from your non-movement).

~~~
wruza
From what I know from confident introverts (these guys and girls speak freely
and not confused of sharp words, but never initiate pointless chit-chats),
they actually hate people, their pointless emotions and dummy dreams. I'm not
sure that they want to change.

------
3minus1
Yes, social anxiety can be crippling. But as you say, you are fine talking
with people you are comfortable with. Well guess what? In software engineering
over 90% of your interaction is with team members who you will be comfortable
with.

Also, sometimes just being an expert at something makes it easier to be
confident. You might still be awkward and anxious at a happy hour, but in a
meeting or technical discussion you speak confidently/authoritatively, based
on your expertise and interest in the subject.

------
small_hammer
According to high performer Joshua Waitzkin (who is not an introvert), people
perform at their best when what they do is aligned with their personality. So
if you want to be successful, don't try to avoid what you are. Embrace it.

And read this [http://introvertdear.com/](http://introvertdear.com/)

------
ThrowawayP
Twenty years into my career and also being very introverted, I will say you
are most likely in for a very hard road ahead. As others have said, your work
will literally have to speak for you and, unless you are truly outstanding,
even that might not be enough to ensure a smooth career. People value other
people whom they have a relationship with, whether formed through professional
contact, lunches, company events, etc. (Even being an introvert, you will too;
humans are social animals.)

What I would suggest is:

-Learn mannerisms to indicate that you're friendly to people you don't know well without having to interact much. For example, wave or smile (and I mean a sincere smile) at people as you pass them in the hallway that you know.

-The people you work closely with are the people that you will get comfortable with and be able to interact with more easily. These few people will have to form the basis of your professional network to help you find career opportunities in the future. While you are, of course, naturally helpful and hardworking, you're also going to need to be helpful, hardworking, etc. in a way that they can see and will vouch for to others.

-Maintain your network. Take the effort to meet with former colleagues every once in a while or contact them on social media to see how they are doing.

-Force yourself to attend corporate parties and other events, as much as you can tolerate. You don't have to stay the whole time but at least be seen and remembered by your immediate co-workers.

-Get an understanding of how performance reviews are done at whichever employer you eventually work for and make sure that you are known in a positive light to the people making the decision. The extroverts do it naturally, you may have to do it artificially (cynical as that may sound). Failing to do so will hamper your career growth significantly.

-Having difficulty talking to others doesn't absolve you of the need to communicate. You're going to need to be able to need to write email, documentation, code comments, and so forth quickly, clearly, and concisely.

-If public speaking is a problem for you, work on that until you're able to give at least a passable engineering presentation. Engineering is a team sport and the more senior you are, the more you're expected to speak up and guide others. Organizations like Toastmasters and course like the Dale Carnegie program can help with this. The earlier in your career you confront this, the better.

-Seeing a medical professional may be helpful in ameliorating your introversion. However, be very wary of medications; they may come with nasty side effects including reducing mental acuity (a massive problem, if you're a technology professional), rebound effects, tolerance effects, and withdrawal effects. Therapy and modifying your behaviors are the most likely to succeed in the long run but require a lot of hard work on your part.

-Be prepared for pain and frustration. Bad ideas communicated well by someone else will win out over good ideas that someone is unable to communicate. Less talented people who have good relationships with the organization will succeed more than a better person with no relationships with anyone.

Good luck.

------
fratlas
fake it til you make it

~~~
atmosx
This advice applies to nearly everything and is a lot deeper than it sounds.

I first read it from Aristotle (if that's suppose to add credibility/draw
attention).

