
Nvidia Playing with Fire - x0054
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4158589-nvidia
======
yarg
> In the past this strategy backfired for Intel (INTC) and the same may be the
> fate of Nvidia.

It sure as shit didn't backfire for Intel - they settled with AMD for
$1,000,000,000.

For this price they completely hobbled AMD's ability to sell the Athlon 64,
which hobbled profits (both directly and in terms of long-term branch image),
which ultimately hobbled R&D.

AMD never fully recovered - and sold their foundries in order to survive.
Intel, on the other hand, got full control over the pricing of pretty much the
entire x86 market for over a decade - it was well worth what they settled for.

~~~
rasz
Lets not forget another >$1B EU fine which they still didnt pay to this day
(neither did Microsoft).

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-06/intel-
get...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-06/intel-gets-boost-
in-1-26-billion-fight-as-case-sent-for-review)

~~~
singularity2001
how do they get away with not paying?

~~~
VladTheImplier
Different legislations. The EU has no real power over those companies.

Basically they said please be nice, please pay us 1B.

~~~
IAmEveryone
Bullshit. The EU has exactly the same powers as the US government regarding
antitrust enforcement against multinationals corporations.

But, as in the US or any other society ruled by law, antitrust fines and all
other executive decisions can be challenged in court. That’s what Intel did,
and the case is still pending.

~~~
ByThyGrace
Is the EU Court of Justice particularly slow? Does this kind of trial take a
lot of time?

~~~
fgonzag
If you were ordered to pay 1 billion, you would probably hire whole attorney
firms to file appeal after appeal.

------
userbinator
GPU companies seem to be notoriously closed and in general secretive about
their products; nVidia is only one of the more prominent current examples, but
AMD/ATI wasn't that nice in the past either. AFAIK Intel was the first to
release detailed specs on its GPUs.

Ideally, one should be able to go to their websites and download full
documentation (and drivers with source) on any of their products, as well as
actually order the bare GPUs chips. Instead, thanks to their desire to control
the entire manufacturing and distribution chain, it's a convoluted NDA-filled
process. Personally, I don't really get it; why would a company put all these
barriers in place to would-be customers of their products, and thus restrict
their revenue? I'm almost willing to bet that there would be many more buying
and using their GPUs if they left the market more open.

Microchip is one prominent example of the "other way" \--- full documentation
for their microcontrollers, and even direct ordering from the website. They
are very successful. Unfortunately no GPU manufacturer seems to be doing this.

~~~
ksec
I was rather hoping one day GPU could be used as simple as CPU, and Drivers is
barely needed. The problem with today's graphics pipeline is the amount of
code and work required in Drivers. In the past have many GPU vendors, most of
them could not get their drivers working right or performance enough. And
Nvidia and AMD has no incentive of opening up, because their years of work in
the drivers set are a barrier of entry for anyone who wants to step in to make
a decent GPU.

May be Intel's forthcoming GPU will be a little more opened? May be Apple's
has a Metal GPU in the making for Mac?

~~~
oblio
> May be Apple's has a Metal GPU in the making for Mac?

That won't help anyone cause sure as hell, Apple won't allow you to order the
chips from their site.

~~~
ksec
I mean on Apple's platform. And assuming this create some advantage for Apple,
others things will move in that direction. ( slowly )

------
suresk
Between this and the "no GeForce usage in datacenters" thing, I'm really
starting to dislike NVidia.

I was hoping AMD would be able to be more competitive with them on both the
gaming and deep learning fronts, but manufacturers already seem to be going
along with this which could hurt AMD even more.

~~~
snuxoll
NVidia has been pretty crappy for a while now, they've made some exceptional
products but they've also been complete dicks to gamers at the same time (see:
GameWorks, along with their general history of implementing driver hacks to
improve performance in games while reducing correctness).

I was really hoping AMD could be more competitive this generation too, I had
only used AMD GPU's since 2011 when I built my first gaming system from
scratch (as opposed to the cobbled up upgrades I had when I was still in
middle/high-school). My R9 290 was looking long in the tooth, Vega failed to
impress and the RX 580 was barely an upgrade (more VRAM, lower power, and due
to cryptomining horrendously overpriced) - I ended up getting an ASUS Strix
1080Ti.

All of us should hope that AMD at least catches up with Navi, the current
dominance of NVidia in the GPU market (both for gaming and the datacenter) is
bad for everyone - even if you're loyal to them for some reason no real
competition doesn't give them much reason to keep innovating.

~~~
llukas
Please stop propagating FUD: "proprietary RTX tech when there's no way they
weren't involved or informed in the development of DirectX Raytracing"

Just looking here and searching for NVIDIA:
[https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/directx/2018/03/19/announci...](https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/directx/2018/03/19/announcing-
microsoft-directx-raytracing/)

yields: "And, our friends at EPIC, with collaboration from ILMxLAB and NVIDIA,
have also put together a stunning technology demo with some characters you may
recognize."

Which was rendered with DirectX Raytracing using RTX hardware. Link:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3ue35ago3Y&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3ue35ago3Y&feature=youtu.be)

~~~
snuxoll
Thanks for the correction, I’ve edited my comment.

------
namlem
Does this violate any EU laws? It's blatantly anti-competitive, but the US
doesn't seem to care about maintaining a healthy, competitive market.

------
smitherfield
_> However, OEM computer manufacturers are a whole different story altogether.
This is where AMD might get hurt by GPP. You see, GPP doesn't only apply to
AIB manufacturers, it also applies to OEMs such as Dell, Apple, Lenovo or HP._

Perhaps in theory (emphasis on the _perhaps,_ IANAL and neither is the
author), but not in practice. Nvidia has a great deal of power over ATI, Asus
etc. They have no power over Dell, much less Apple. Nvidia needs Dell and
Apple far, far more than Dell or Apple needs Nvidia (they don't).

Nvidia and AMD are selling, if not identical products, then near enough for
government work. If Dell decided to drop Nvidia from all their product lines,
the impact on Dell would be negligible at worst, but it would be a catastrophe
for Nvidia (while AMD would be making out like Scrooge McDuck). Apple? Nvidia
sends Apple the corporate equivalent of drunken post-breakup apology
voicemails (releasing Mac drivers for cards that aren't offered on Macs).

Nvidia's ability to enforce branding guidelines on Dell is nil. If Dell
decided they'd rather brand "Nvidia" cards as "Dell GraphicsMaster 6000 SUX,"
Nvidia would have to roll with it.

------
Larrikin
Site seems to only be readable on mobile if you force PC mode display.
Otherwise if you try to read pass the abstract the article gets replaced with
a message to download their app.

~~~
seanp2k2
It's also 8 pages so they can show a different ad on each page. The content
might be OK, but it's the same slimy tactic that Facebook listicle sites use
to boost "page views" and ad views. To me, this massively devalues the
content.

~~~
soared
Other sites use identical strategies except they refresh an ad slot every 15
seconds. The 8 page thing is either bad/weird web design or serves another
purpose.

------
zaarn
The GPP is pretty much as anti-competitive as it gets. "Sell our GPUs as gamer
or else you might not get any GPUs" is a big threat to the vendors.

I will no longer recommend or buy Nvidia hardware for anything and I hope
reviewers will start to not review NV hardware over this.

It's a real dick move.

------
asdsa5325
Note that this is perspective from an investor, not a tech head, developer,
etc.

------
snvzz
So, what NVIDIA is saying is: All your gaming brands do now belong to us. Or
else.

------
yalogin
How good is the automotive business for Nvidia? Now and in the long run.

------
sir-alien
Well I for one will certainly avoid any product brand that is now part of the
GPP. It is great getting discounts from things like Intel but like the age old
saying, if it's too good to be true it probably is.

And this definitely got exposed with the recent serious vulnerabilities in all
modern Intel x86 CPUs. In the attempt to get ever faster and make ever more
sales, they had to lower quality.

Pretty much the same path with Nvidia in my opinion.

------
twoodfin
This seems like no big deal. Nvidia creates a preferred partner co-branding
program, and insists that an OEM’s half of the branding effort be Nvidia-
specific, presumably so Nvidia isn’t spending marketing dollars promoting OEM
brands that include AMD GPUs.

~~~
nrb
This program goes beyond branding efforts, according to the report[1] the
partner program includes:

\- high-effort engineering engagements

\- early tech engagement

\- launch partner status

\- game bundling

\- sales rebate programs

\- social media and PR support

\- marketing reports

\- Marketing Development Funds (MDF)

Conditionally including MDF as part of this program is behavior similar to
what caused the government action against Intel by the FTC:

"The FTC settlement applies to Central Processing Units, Graphics Processing
Units and chipsets and prohibits Intel from using threats, bundled prices, or
other offers to exclude or hamper competition or otherwise unreasonably
inhibit the sale of competitive CPUs or GPUs. The settlement also prohibits
Intel from deceiving computer manufacturers about the performance of non-Intel
CPUs or GPUs."[2]

1:
[https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/03/08/geforce_partner_p...](https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/03/08/geforce_partner_program_impacts_consumer_choice/)

2: [https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-
releases/2010/08/ftc-s...](https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-
releases/2010/08/ftc-settles-charges-anticompetitive-conduct-against-intel)

~~~
rasz
Yes, but Intel still didnt pay the fine (in EU) and keeps doing the same old
under new clothes. As a reseller you regularly get extraordinary deals from
Intel. For example for every highend CPU + mobo combo sold intel "gifts" you
an SSD = hidden heavy rebate on expensive CPU, had this one at least couple of
times.

~~~
simion314
It is not over, Intel appealed so it dragged things along for years, I hope
they get what they deserve.

The main problem was not the gifts or discounts for selling Intel CPU, there
was conditions like do not sell any AMD or less then 5% AMD.

~~~
rasz
Part of settlement was prohibition of bundled discounts, so now they offer you
gifts and prizes :/

