
Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers - hw
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/25/mumbai-india-bans-plastic-bags-and-bottles
======
vishaltelangre
Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are
wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such
consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is
used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits,
wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right
away.

I agree that "we", the people need to take a pledge to stop using plastic as
much as we can. But if there's no restriction put on giant FMCG companies such
as Hindustan Unilever, ITC, Patanjali, Netsle, Procter and Gamble, etc. from
supplying their products wrapped in plastic, I consider all of these
government initiatives merely as a gimmick.

EDIT 1: Another comment I left on this thread -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17400028](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17400028).

EDIT 2: In India, plastic is a major contributor of blocking sewers and
rivers, especially in rainy seasons. Another important problem plastic waste
produces is that since government bodies (such as, municipal corporations,
gram panchayats, etc.) are unable to dump and/or recycle plastic waste
properly, it is accidentally consumed by animals and is the major reason for
their deaths. Another issue is that, often "dumping waste" is considered as
"burning" it. Burning plastic waste disturbs healthy air and is a major factor
among others responsible for the increased air pollution in Indian cities
recently.

~~~
jdietrich
_> Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are
wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such
consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is
used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits,
wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right
away._

Broadly speaking, that would be a terrible backwards step for the environment.
Plastic packaging often reduces waste by protecting the product from spoilage
and damage.

A lot of people bemoan the plastic wrapping on cucumbers, but that wrapping
doubles the shelf life of the product. It's a net win, because the
environmental impact of wasted cucumbers is far greater than the environmental
impact of a gram or two of polyethylene wrapping.

Many people argue that milk should be sold in re-usable glass containers
rather than disposable bottles or cartons, but the environmental case is
really marginal. The glass bottle is considerably more energy-intensive to
produce and transport, with more energy used to collect and wash it for re-
use. Returnable glass bottles are often worse than disposable plastic if the
transport distance is too great and/or the breakage rate is too high. In many
cases, the best option is reusable plastic bottles, which are less energy-
intensive to manufacture, lighter to transport and more durable than glass.

Plastic is a wonderful material that has an important role to play in a
sustainable economy. There has been a huge increase in the quality and
availability of bio-based and biodegradable plastics in the packaging
industry. We have irrationally demonised a very useful material, creating a
huge distraction from much more serious environmental problems.

If you buy a beef steak wrapped in plastic, the problem is the steak, not the
wrapper. The plastic wrapper produced ~10g of CO2 and required ~100ml of water
to produce; the steak produced ~7kg of CO2 and required ~4,000 litres of water
to produce. As long as it is disposed of responsibly, a whole trash bag full
of plastic packaging has a negligible environmental impact compared to a
single portion of beef.

~~~
dd36
Cucumbers are more harmful than plastic?!? I stopped reading right there. One
timely biodegrades, the other doesn’t. That’s the whole problem.

~~~
TylerE
This is exactly the kind of tunnel vision that annoys me.

Things take much more energy to PRODUCE than to dispose of.

Agriculture is incredibly energy, land, and water intensive.

~~~
state_less
We can and should do better. What if we had a robot that would drive through
the fields, detecting weeds and crushing or cutting them out instead of
chemical solutions? Couldn't we deliver the water more directly as well?

Shouldn't transportation use battery powered vehicles instead of fossil fuel
based vehicles?

Can't we steam wash with renewable energy?

Maybe it costs more to do some of these things now, but I think folks could
use some good goals to work toward.

~~~
beauzero
On a happy note "no-till" is starting to prove itself. There are mixtures of
effectiveness and chemical usage but checkout the No Till vids the USDA is
promoting
[https://www.youtube.com/user/TheUSDANRCS](https://www.youtube.com/user/TheUSDANRCS)

------
piyushpr134
Great to see that my city, Mumbai, is setting an example here. Plastic ban is
a no brainer. People must move to either biodegradable carry bags and
packaging or move to jute/steel/metal bags/utensils etc. Plastic would choke
our world one day otherwise.

At the same time, I know it would be huge pain for a lot of people. In Mumbai,
it rains really heavy. Like really really heavy. It rains more than 2x it
rains in London and that too in just 4 months. So for a lot of people, plastic
is literally the roof they need. Zoom in on Mumbai and you would see many
shanties with blue "roof"s. That is all plastic. Hope municipality will allow
such plastic sheets as they are not single use.

~~~
sumedh
Doesnt Mumbai do that every couple of years and the the whole thing fizzles
out and then some new bureaucrat tries it again.

This is from 2009

[http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/30/bmc-plans-
to-b...](http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/30/bmc-plans-to-ban-
plastic-bags-in-mumbai.htm)

~~~
denzil_correa
In Mumbai (and India), law enforcement is a huge challenge regardless of the
laws.

~~~
kamaal
What makes this issue worse is the existence of bullshit impractical laws,
such as this.

------
andrewstuart
Thank goodness somewhere is taking the obvious action of banning the
packaging, which is really just pre-garbage.

However, banning packaging only works if it is backed by a system for
precisely standardised, refundable and washable containers that food and other
products can be shipped in.

You can't just say "no packaging". We need a MUCH better form of packaging
than disposable/recyclable because recycling only works a little bit to solve
the problem of packaging turning into garbage. That better form is re-usable
standardised containers.

~~~
WalterBright
Better to use paper packaging. For food it can be waxed like in the olden
days.

~~~
0xFFC
Doesn’t paper bags literally mean demand for more papers and consequently more
jungle would be destroyed?

~~~
Arnt
No.

Paper bags don't add up to much. The Indians use vast numbers of small bags. I
weighed a paper bag I got some fruit in just now, 7g. Divide by x to
compensate for realistic recycling. A tree weighs several million grams. Not
all of it becomes paper, but still, one tree is a lot of 7g bags.

Adding to that: Once the paper is burned or rots, the route back to a new tree
is fairly short. Not like plastic, which forms new oil in fifty million years.

~~~
thewhitetulip
On top of that, these days paper isn't manufactured by cutting down forests we
have more eco friendly ways of manufacturing paper, in and out of India

------
sschueller
I think this is a good step but what a lot of countries lack is also proper
disposal of trash.

Landfills are a poor solution, better are clean trash burning facilities[1]
that also produce energy as well as proper pre sorting.

China is building the largest in the world which is to open in 2020. [2]

[1]
[https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/science/earth/13trash.htm...](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/science/earth/13trash.html)

[2] [https://www.sciencealert.com/china-is-building-the-
largest-w...](https://www.sciencealert.com/china-is-building-the-largest-
waste-to-energy-plant-in-the-world)

~~~
protonfish
The "ban single-use plastic" hype train seems illogical to me. Having your
city littered with garbage is a government services problem - they should
provide convenient waste disposal receptacles, empty them frequently to be
disposed of properly, and give citations to litterers. We should not be
cheering this short-sighted law.

I also don't understand why plastic in a landfill is all that bad. The fact
that it is biodegradable is a positive here - it won't break down into toxic
substances.

Evaluating environmental impact is a complex process. Everything we do has
multiple consequences. I believe global warning is the most serious
environmental disaster we are facing today. Plastics use significantly less
energy in production and transportation (because of lower weight and less
material needed.) With an eye toward AGW, how can paper packaging and burning
refuse be seen as a responsible choice?

It is critical that we consider the effects of our consumption habits in a
serious and reasonable fashion. I just don't see the anti-plastic panic to be
rational or constructive.

~~~
seszett
> _With an eye toward AGW, how can paper packaging and burning refuse be seen
> as a responsible choice?_

Plastic takes oil and therefore carbon out of the depths of the Earth, until
it eventually gets burnt, biodegrades or otherwise degrades and turns into CO2
contributing to global warming.

Trees instead take CO2 from the atmosphere, turn it into solid cellulose that
we make paper from, until the paper biodegrades or gets burnt and returns to
the atmosphere from which it came in the first place. If a new tree is planted
for each tree that gets cut for paper, as is done in most developed countries,
paper can be carbon neutral (it all depends on the source of the energy used
for processing it).

~~~
AjithAntony
Plastic is a nearly free byproduct of refining oil for fuel.

------
kumarvvr
The offset in reduced plastic use by consumers will be more than compensated
with the rapidly growing e-commerce market.

I am terrified of the amount of plastic my Amazon purchases bring with their
packing.

It is a step in the right direction, but the govt. should invest and provide
alternatives, perhaps use existing research institutions to come up with new,
eco-friendly packing materials, and popularize them.

~~~
icebraining
I don't buy from Amazon, but weren't they pushing for minimal and plastic-free
packaging? Has the program been dropped?

~~~
kumarvvr
Is it so? I haven't heard of it. I recently ordered a set of knives and they
came wrapped in a plastic cover (black) and wrapped with a cardboard box. But
the knives themselves are packed in plastic and cardboard boxes.

If I'd gone to a store, I could have picked them up by hand and avoided the
plastic covering required for transport.

E-commerce generates additional non-biodegradable waste and that is a problem
that has to be solved considering the rapid rise of online shopping.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
At the store just the other day - shopkeeper ringing up the guy in front of me
asked "Do you want a bag for that?" It was a product, in a box, wrapped in
plastic. And the guy had his own canvas bag out already.

If he'd accepted, he'd have had the product in a box in a bag in a bag. My
god. When does it all end?

What was the product? Plastic bags.

~~~
paulie_a
It's getting annoying when I go to a store. Put my backpack on the counter and
get asked about a bag for the two small items I am buying.

------
godelmachine
This is nothing.

I was entering my workplace yesterday and as usual, the guard at the first
checkpoint rummaged through my backpack. I was shocked when he said the
plastic bag I was using to protect my notebooks from rain could not be taken
inside. Upon asking for an explanation, he said plastic bags are outlawed and
we cannot risk them in company premises.

I had to keep that bag in my vehicle trunk and then was allowed to enter
premises.

~~~
icebraining
Wait, why do you have guards rummaging through your bags? Do you work in a
high-security facility?

~~~
piyush_soni
Some IT companies in India check your bags _" for security purposes"_ while
coming in/going out, or both. Yes, very disrespectful and insulting, but no
one revolts so it's been going on (while their HRs will give powerpoint
presentations on how trust is "one of the pillars" of their company). Most of
them have a (probably made-up) story of how it was not the case before but
someone broke their trust by stealing code in a hard disk etc., but no one has
actually seen that happening in-person.

Our software product company (headquartered in US) had the same policy in its
Indian offices, and I (being a relatively new employee) last year pointed out
in our surveys how hypocritical it is of the company to expect trust from the
employees but not do the same in return. Fortunately they stopped doing it
after that.

~~~
shripadk
This has nothing to do with trust. One terror attack and the employees and
their families would be getting back at the management for lax security and
having made the big mistake of trusting their lives with the company.
Workplace violence is a thing and it's better for everyone to go through
security checks than risk liability. You never know how, when or why someone
snaps (however mentally stable s/he was during recruitment). And if you think
it's impossible for something like that to happen, just take a look at what
happened at YouTube HQ few months ago.

~~~
okmokmz
I really hope this is sarcasm... You think it's appropriate for every employee
to be searched before entering a facility because there might be a "terror
attack"? How many IT workers are there in the country, how many attacks have
occurred in IT offices, and how many attacks have been prevented by searching
employees bags? Giving up personal liberties and freedoms out of
unsubstantiated fears based on a few fringe cases is a slippery slope. Also, I
highly doubt that's what the policy is even about. The person you are replying
to is probably correct that the policy is an attempt to prevent employees from
leaving with company data

~~~
shripadk
How do you prevent employees from leaving with company data if one copies all
the sensitive data onto a pen drive? Does security check the pen drives too?
It's actually ridiculous to cast aspersion on the security when their job is
to prevent threats.

> You think it's appropriate for every employee to be searched before entering
> a facility because there might be a "terror attack"? How many IT workers are
> there in the country, how many attacks have occurred in IT offices, and how
> many attacks have been prevented by searching employees bags?

It just takes one attack to lose a loved one and put a family in complete
disarray. In India there have been multiple terror threats to software
companies in the past decade alone. You forget that the agencies work 24/7
preventing terror plots and if even one of them slips through it would be
disaster for everyone involved. Multi layered security is the only way to
thwart terror plots. Here are few examples:

1\. [http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-terror-plot-against-
inf...](http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-terror-plot-against-infy-in-
mysore-busted-1060458)

2\.
[http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jan/05blore.htm](http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jan/05blore.htm)

3\. [https://www.indiatoday.in/latest-headlines/story/infosys-
wip...](https://www.indiatoday.in/latest-headlines/story/infosys-wipro-get-
terror-threats-36574-2009-01-04)

You can use logic and statistics to argue about probability of terror threats
but none of your statistics takes into account the mental health or the
radical motivation of an individual/group.

> I really hope this is sarcasm... You think it's appropriate for every
> employee to be searched before entering a facility because there might be a
> "terror attack"?

EDIT: I am not being sarcastic. I am being a realist. In an ideal world I
wouldn't want any sort of security. But we don't live in an ideal world.

~~~
icebraining
So, from your links, nobody was actually killed by terrorists, nor has a
security guard actually stopped any terrorist.

Meanwhile, you know who actually _has_ killed Infosys employees? A security
guard:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN9MenY2dEs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN9MenY2dEs)

~~~
shripadk
> So, from your links, nobody was actually killed by terrorists

That is not a justification for no security checks. That's my only argument.
If one is willing to go through security checks at malls, airports, movie
theaters, sports game at a stadium, a music concert without any fuss I don't
see why one would want to be treated differently at the workplace. You don't
find anyone talking of "giving up personal liberties and freedoms out of
unsubstantiated fears based on a few fringe cases is a slippery slope" when
trying to enter any of these secured areas do they? I don't see people
complaining about feeling insulted while being frisked trying to enter a
stadium but the very same people feel insulted while being frisked entering
their workplace!

> nor has a security guard actually stopped any terrorist.

Nope. I never claimed that a security guard actually stopped a terrorist. If
you read my comment you would understand that I spoke of multi-layered
security and that terror threats on those companies are real and not a figment
of one's imagination. If those terror threats were not thwarted by agencies do
you agree that having security at the gates of an IT enterprise would be a
second line of defence? Or is your assertion that until there is a terror
attack of significant magnitude one should not care about security?

> Meanwhile, you know who actually has killed Infosys employees? A security
> guard:
> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN9MenY2dEs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN9MenY2dEs)

So you say just because of this one incident we remove all security from these
companies and let anyone walk in and out?

Maybe better security here: [http://time.com/5226892/youtube-headquarters-
security-silico...](http://time.com/5226892/youtube-headquarters-security-
silicon-valley/) could have prevented 3 employees from getting injured don't
you think?

~~~
icebraining
_If one is willing to go through security checks at malls, airports, movie
theaters, sports game at a stadium, a music concert without any fuss I don 't
see why one would want to be treated differently at the workplace. You don't
find anyone talking of "giving up personal liberties and freedoms out of
unsubstantiated fears based on a few fringe cases is a slippery slope" when
trying to enter any of these secured areas do they?_

Yes. Yes, I do. In fact, I'm one of them. Thankfully I live in a relatively
sane country, so there's no such nonsense except on airports, where we must
comply with global rules.

By the way, Brussels - which as you may know has had a recent history of
multiple terrorist attacks - doesn't have that nonsense either. Even in the
main train station, where some poor lunatic tried to harm others and only
ended up immolating himself, the doors are all wide open without any checks.

 _If those terror threats were not thwarted by agencies do you agree that
having security at the gates of an IT enterprise would be a second line of
defence?_

My complaint wasn't with any security checks, it was with rummaging through
people's bags. Guys carrying AK-47s are not going to be deterred by a bag
check. Having secure doors that only open with a badge makes sense.

 _So you say just because of this one incident we remove all security from
these companies and let anyone walk in and out?_

Just like you never claimed a security guard actually stopped a terrorist, I
never claimed we should remove all security. All I'm saying is that the
importance of terrorists is being overblown. In practice, even security guards
themselves are more dangerous.

------
smdz
The real reason to ban plastic so strictly in Mumbai is because plastic
garbage chokes Mumbai's drainage systems and storm water system. And given the
city's population and usage of plastic, the chokes are quite severe during the
monsoon (rainy season) when it rains heavily. It is so severe that chokes can
lead to extreme flooding and loss of life when it rains heavily and there is
an onset of high-tide. The water sometimes has a few hours to leave the land
and hence it is critical for the stormwater lines to work efficiently.

Come September this ban will be forgotten again as the monsoon season recedes.
While the ban has environment benefits, "they" care little about the
"environment"

~~~
pravinva
The choking nullahs aren't merely full of plastic. It's debris from the
massive construction, both private and govt. Has anyone seen road design in
Mumbai? The "expressway" signal junctions are made of paver blocks. Gutters
are full of mud. The floods won't stop even if all plastic vanished

------
ohnoesmyscv
When will US cities do the same? Most restaurants offer plastic togo
containers, which ends up in the landfill. Some restaurants even use plastic
bowls and plates for dine-in customers, arguably so they don’t have to invest
in equipment and labor to wash dishes.

With The China recycling ban, this becomes more of a pressing issue. I’m
surprised cities aren’t outright banning or imposing a tax on the use of
plastics at restaurants.

~~~
weavie
An American family I visited a while ago would use paper plates and plastic
forks for every meal at home to save on dishes. I was shocked, but they seemed
to think it was standard behaviour in the US. Is it?

~~~
alkonaut
> to save on dishes

To save what, money or labor? I fail to see how this could be economical in
the sense "cheaper"?

~~~
weavie
I believe labour, all that time spent scrubbing plates...

~~~
Cthulhu_
And to think the dishwasher was invented in the US, :p.

------
brianbreslin
I'm curious how this will affect the economy of the Dharavi slums where a huge
portion of their economy is based around recycling goods found throughout the
city. [1] It is great for the city to cut down on pollution, and I'm sure
Dharavi will adapt, just curious is all.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi)

------
thecrazyone
I'm from India.

This is one of the most asinine steps the Govt has taken. If plastic is
banned, the need will be replaced by another substance (perhaps with similar
properties; also demand for a need doesn't evaporate) which will overflow in
our landfills. A wiser step would've been to figure out a way to recycle
plastic, which has already been figured out by other countries ([1],[2],[3]).
Instead, we're setting ourselves up to blame another substance a few years
down the line.

We're inconveniencing people, ruining existing businesses and capabilities for
a non-solution or at the very least pushing the problem to another substance
another day. Completely asinine indeed. Deeds of the government as usual.

[1] [https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/scandinavian-plastic-
re...](https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/scandinavian-plastic-recycling-
system-uk-adopt/)

[2] [https://sweden.se/nature/the-swedish-recycling-
revolution/](https://sweden.se/nature/the-swedish-recycling-revolution/)

[3]
[https://guce.oath.com/collectConsent?brandType=eu&.done=http...](https://guce.oath.com/collectConsent?brandType=eu&.done=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.co.uk%2Fentry%2Fnorway-
has-perfected-plastic-recycling-heres-what-the-uk-can-learn-from-
them_uk_5a7acbc5e4b06505b4e9983e%3Fguccounter%3D1&sessionId=4_cc-
session_3a4e22dd-b5f6-4a30-aa2a-2bd2751a1678&lang=en-gb&inline=false)

Edit 1: Comment about demand

Edit 2: formatting

Edit 3: added "...some years down the line..."

------
wallace_f
Why can't we agree to just do what Musk says about carbon: tax goods which
create negative externalities for society?

You could even do it this way: write the law such that an institution, whose
job is to eliminate these externalities, is created, and then funded only with
taxes on said products.

There's two competing special interest groups to keep each in check so in
theory it's even a institution which shouldn't have too much bureaucratic
inertia.

There are economists who endorse the idea, it's called a Pigouvian tax--the
most notable economist is Mankiw.

~~~
thechao
Carbon neutral atmospheric recapture of personal vehicle transportation carbon
is probably about 600-700$ per ton of carbon. (Based off of practical
experiments in the UK.) My read of the literature doesn’t show any hope of
this number decreasing. A gallon of gasoline produces 20 lbs of carbon. This
puts a carbon neutral tax on consumer gasoline at ~6-7$ per gallon. If you
allow 20% “inefficiencies” (tax collection; frisson; profit margins), you’re
at 7.2-8.4$/gallon. My fuel costs would go from 2.75$/gallon to
~10.50$/gallon. My yearly commute costs would go from ~1100$/yr to ~4000$/yr.
I suppose it makes even a medium range electric vehicle look cheap—especially
given the far cheaper costs of capturing carbon “at the stack” at the power
plant would mean that central power wouldn’t be taxed as heavily.

~~~
jdietrich
The price of gasoline in the UK is currently over $6 per US gallon; A few
years ago, it exceeded $9 per gallon. Most of that price is tax. The American
way of life might be significantly affected by a recapture tax, but it
wouldn't make a huge amount of difference in most of Europe.

------
woogiewonka
Now if only we could do the same in Japan. I am always amazed to see
individually-wrapped cookies wrapped in plastic, inside a box, wrapped by more
plastic, inside paper inside a single-use shopping bag. I mean... C'MON!!!!

------
DocTomoe
> Chaudhary, a taxi driver, said he had started carrying a cloth bag and that
> his local mutton vendor had begun wrapping the meat in newspaper rather than
> plastic sheets.

I am sure this is healthy.

~~~
eesmith
FWIW, newspaper was the traditional wrapping for fish and chips in the UK.
Many still use wraps printed to look like a newspaper.

The practice was common enough that it occurs in Heinlein's "Have Spacesuit,
Will Travel" (p14 in my copy), which was written in 1958. The line is "I had
the _Centerville Clarion_ but it's only fit for wrapping salami."

~~~
DocTomoe
Yes, it was the traditional way of doing things. But things have changed.
Recycled paper contains diisobutyl phthalate and di-n-butyl phthalate. Ink
residues in recycled paper may contain benzophenones and mineral oils. If they
still use lead-lettered printing, you may got actual lead on your newspaper.

------
thomasfedb
Starting to see single-use plastics being banned across Australia also which
is great to see. Turns out paper bags are actually really handy things for
putting recycling in.

------
RandomCSGeek
A few clarifications,

1\. It's not Mumbai banning plastics, the state of Maharashtra has done so. I
live in another district of the same state.

2\. Maharashtra is the 18th state to do so. So this is not as much of an
unique law.

3\. The State has also made it compulsory to utilize plastics waste in road
construction.

------
piyush_soni
Again, nice objective but like demonetization, it's a decision without any
planning/preparation, and the terms and conditions are changing almost
everyday.

This is from today (small shop owners might be given relief from this rule):
[https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/plastic-
ban-...](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/plastic-ban-kirana-
shops-may-get-relief/articleshow/64739988.cms)

They should have first researched and offered cheap environment friendly
alternatives before doing the same. According to food delivery networks/start-
ups, online food ordering was heavily impacted and a lot of restaurants have
stopped home delivery because there are no feasible alternatives to delivering
wet food (chutneys/sambhar etc.) The plastic cups, spoons and forks in mall
food courts have been replaced too, but with wooden ones which just don't do
their jobs properly.

~~~
hw
The decision to ban plastics has been communicated for a few months. It's only
in the last few days that the law went into effect, but businesses have had
time to plan. One could argue if the 3 months notice was enough, but people
shouldn't be caught by surprise.

Wet food is a challenge in delivery. There are wax lined paper cups that are
more environmental friendly, although not entirely eco safe.

~~~
piyush_soni
Most of the 'wax lined' paper cups you're talking about are plastic coated
paper cups in reality, and the actual wax lined ones are very bad for one's
health.

So you are saying businesses had a whole 3 months time to find a reasonably
priced plastic alternative that has the same properties as plastic (insoluble
in liquid, durability, flexibility, and lightweight nature) but are eco-
friendly and bio-degradable, which is a problem researchers of the world have
no solution to? :) . In my opinion it was also government's job to suggest
those cheap alternatives, or even give subsidy on them at least for the time
being.

There is a reason rest of the world hasn't done it so far, because when they
take some decision, it's backed by proper research by experts including
suggesting the alternatives.

------
someonenice
Another district in state Kerala is the first district to ban plastic bags in
India. I had been the reduction in plastic waste can be felt across the town.

[https://www.thebetterindia.com/97890/first-plastic-free-
dist...](https://www.thebetterindia.com/97890/first-plastic-free-district-
kannur/)

------
hal9000xp
Rwanda seems to be first country which imposed complete ban on plastic bags.
It looks they've been successful on that:

[http://www.dw.com/en/ten-years-on-rwandas-plastic-
ban/av-428...](http://www.dw.com/en/ten-years-on-rwandas-plastic-
ban/av-42897883)

------
sbmthakur
This is a Maharashtra wide ban. It's being strictly implemented in my
neighborhood(a Mumbai suburb).

~~~
thewhitetulip
Truth be told, this came quote late. A friend of mine told me that the town of
alibag banned plastics few years back. Of course they are a tourism based
economy

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kamaal
Officially, :)

In reality we all know how this will go. If anything plastic use may now
increase. Because it will now go unregulated.

Bans in India need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

They banned tinted glasses on cars. In Bangalore, some people prefer to pay
fine/bribe than remove the sticker.

~~~
rubzah
Agree. Anyone who has been to India knows how small a role regulations play in
everyday life. Nobody cares. At most this will give a couple of corrupt police
officers another opportunity to hand out 'fines'.

~~~
aryamaan
I think the time will tell and it's better than having no regulations at all.

Btw, the consumption of alcohol in Bihar and other states where it's
prohibated has reduced significantly- I am not advocating the ban of alcohol,
personally I feel it's as a wrong move- after the regulations.

~~~
thewhitetulip
Pray tell me how you found out that Bihar's alcohol ban has worked out?

I was under the impression that there is a vibrant black market in Bihar too

~~~
addicted
The answer is a simple google search away. It’s worked out pretty well with
all sorts of social indicators trending better.

An alcohol ban doesn’t need to lead to 100% reduction to be deemed a success.
In fact it almost certainly won’t. It just needs to make things reasonably
better than they were before.

~~~
kamaal
Let me get this straight, in a country like India bans never work.

Bans are a way of getting deregulated and ensuring a tax holiday.

You can't tax something that you have declared shouldn't even exist.

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babuskov
I have been thinking a lot about the plastic problem. Isn't plastic a great
way to store carbon in solid form for a long time and prevent it coming back
into the atmosphere?

I mean, doesn't plastic work the same way the wooden furniture works? Storing
carbon away and preventing global warming?

If this is the case, perhaps we should look into ways to store plastic in more
environment friendly ways instead to trying to prevent its production and use.
All the alternatives that quickly degrade seem to allow the carbon to quickly
get back into air and increase the global warming effect.

~~~
Drakim
As far as I know, the carbon in plastic mostly comes from crude oil, which is
already "stored away" deep in the earth. If you found a 100% effective and
safe way to store all plastic after it's use you'd simply be carbon neutral
(minus production costs), you wouldn't be capturing carbon from the
atmosphere.

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blohs
Which in India means politicians see potential plastic bag black market.

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emur
Banning at the time of monsoon is really clever move. When you can wrap
yourself in plastic raincoats but you cannot carry a plastic bag in which you
can carry that same raincoats.

~~~
devdas
Monsoons show plastic blocking sewer systems.

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wewake
One must acknowledge that there's no such thing as "ban" in India given the
numerous past records of people not obliging to regulations set by the govt.

------
WalterBright
I'm a heavy amazon user, and am disappointed that they haven't eliminated
plastic from the packaging. They use those inflatable plastic balloons (which
are still far better than styrofoam peanuts), and they inexplicably use
plastic bubblewrap mailers.

On the news today they reported the tons of recyclable paper that nobody knows
what to do with. It could be shredded and used for packaging instead of
plastic.

~~~
jakobegger
It depends. In Austria, almost all Amazon stuff comes in a cardboard envelope,
without any plastic.

------
random_thoughts
Amazon,H&M, other multinationals pressing to soften Indian state's plastic ban
- [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-plastic-
ban/amazon-...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-plastic-ban/amazon-
hm-and-other-multinationals-pressing-to-soften-indian-states-plastic-ban-
idUSKBN1JP0BU?il=0)

------
failedartifact
Ive been thinking theres a better classification one could make for wrapping
food products using entropy. Food with short shelf life and not a survival
food should be packaged in high entropy packaging.

Although, sweet items would need to be taken care of since these would have a
long shelf life but shouldnt be packaged in plastics.

But in general, so long as there is adequate recyclable replacements, then
this is great

------
majewsky
Honest question: What will plastic bottles be replaced with that's more
environmentally friendly? I can easily see plastic bags being replaced by jute
bags, but the only alternative material for bottles that I know of is glass,
which does not seem like a good alternative given its weight and fragility
(and possibly energy use during production).

~~~
bladecatcher
[http://www.algopack.com/indexgb.php](http://www.algopack.com/indexgb.php)
makes bottles out of seaweed (brown algae) and there're other companies trying
to make reuseable bioplastic bottles out of sugarcane

~~~
bpicolo
> reuseable bioplastic bottles

That's not any better if they still don't degrade, no?

~~~
hammock
Bioplastic (PLA) is biodegradable in a commercial facility, unlike petroleum-
based bottle plastic (PET)

~~~
saagarjha
The key point being that someone has to get the bottle back to the facility
instead of throwing it in the trash, or worse, littering.

~~~
bladecatcher
That's true, but bioplastics degrade on timelines that are magnitudes smaller
than actual plastic.

------
Boombuster
Seems like a big challenge. When I travelled to Mumbai i remember so many
plastic bottles around the shoreline

~~~
RandomCSGeek
Mumbai is one of those places where the sea dumps all it's waste. Of course, a
lot of it must have been generated by Mumbai itself, but some must also be
coming from elsewhere.

------
1ba9115454
Great. Let's roll this out everywhere.

Actually it would be nice to do something about cigeratte butts too.

~~~
sleepychu
Just ban cigarettes? They're ridiculous, I don't understand why we allow them.

~~~
sumedh
> I don't understand why we allow them.

because some people like them.

Should we ban Alcohol, fast food and sugar as well?

~~~
Cthulhu_
People like cocaine too; enjoyment of something isn't grounds to keep it
legal. Smoking (and alcohol) just can't be made illegal now; the US tried that
for a couple of years, and all it managed to do was give rise to organized
crime and illegal (and dangerous) manufacture of alcohol.

In my country, smoking and alcohol are more passively discouraged; high taxes,
a ban on advertising, strict age checks, and (for smoking, lately) shocking
imagery, removal of brands, removal of any kind of interesting packaging, and
(most recently) a ban on displaying it.

I mean I'd still be in favor of outright banning it already, because all of
these measures are just idk, weird, but at the same time criminalising it
would cause more problems than the current measures.

~~~
sumedh
Cocaine should made legal too, with all the measures which you listed.

If people like something, they will try anything to get it, if its illegal is
just goes underground.

~~~
dingo_bat
I don't understand this logic. We tax alcohol and cigarettes. We ban cocaine.
And look at the result: hundreds of millions addicted to smoking, but almost
zero usage of cocaine. Looks like a ban is a good way to curtail usage. Which
is what we want, right?

~~~
sumedh
> but almost zero usage of cocaine.

This is where the disconnect happens, since you dont see people using cocaine
you assume that the ban is working. Meanwhile people who really want it, can
get it with money or their bodies (women).

Just because you dont see it does not mean its not happening.

~~~
dingo_bat
It's still insignificant compared to smokers.

~~~
sumedh
Is it almost zero?

------
chestervonwinch
Meanwhile in Texas, the supreme court has just ruled that city-wide bag bans
are illegal:

[http://www.txcourts.gov/media/1441865/160748.pdf](http://www.txcourts.gov/media/1441865/160748.pdf)

~~~
cbg0
From what I've understood from the last two pages, it seems that under the
law, cities lack enough legal authority to perform these types of bans.

> The Act’s exemption does not save the Ordinance because the City has not
> identified a law authorizing the manner in which the City seeks to regulate.
> The general grants of regulatory authority the City relies on do not
> authorize the manner the City has chosen and, more to the point, do not
> supersede the express directive in the Act.

------
treebro
Plastic has become an eyesore in most of India, this couldn't come sooner.

------
m23khan
excellent decision!

This will hopefully have a affect on Pakistan as well as Pakistanis view
Mumbai as the commercial role model for their geographic region. Hopefully my
city Karachi can also follow this example.

------
0xcafecafe
The news about a plastic bag being found at the bottom of the mariana trench
was the trigger for me. We got a bunch of multiuse bags from publix and
stopped using plastic bags cold turkey.

------
simion314
A tax seems the fair solution, if it costs X to dispose of a plastic bottle
then tax X each bottle, use the money to dispose of the bottle, adjust X if
costs change.

~~~
dingaling
But such a tax gives no incentive for companies to change their packaging. The
tax is paid by the customer who usually has few or no options.

For example in the UK plastic one-litre milk pitcher bottles are ubiquitous.
Even the few remaining door-to-door milkmen deliver them, instead of the old
one-pint reusable glass bottles. I simply can't buy fresh milk in anything
else and i have a recycling bin full of them.

Reverting to glass would add weight, breakages and collection costs to the
companies. So they wouldn't have any incentive to change under a tax scheme
when they don't pay it. Only a ban will change their behaviour.

~~~
jstanley
> Reverting to glass would add weight, breakages and collection costs

So how exactly is glass superior to plastic in this application? Seems to me
that they moved to plastic because plastic is the better material for the job.

~~~
DougBTX
Need to ask not just which is better, but which is better for who?

With glass, producing new bottles for each delivery would be super expensive,
so it is in their interest to bear the cost of collecting the bottles for
reuse and recycling.

With plastic, producing new containers is super cheap, so it is fine to
continuously produce new ones, but the waste is still produced, so the
customers and their local government must bear the cost of waste disposal or
recycling instead.

Essentially, moving from glass to plastic is good for the producers, as they
no-longer need to care how much it costs to recycle, since they don't do it
any more. But the overall cost to society might be higher, depending exactly
on what the recycling costs are.

~~~
tallanvor
One problem is that we don't know the full cost, including the environmental
impact, of each option.

Glass can be cleaned and reused, but it's heavier, so transporting it both
ways results in increased emissions. They could also choose to use reusable
plastic containers (soda companies did this in Norway up until around 5-6
years ago), but collecting the used containers takes up much more space if
they can't be compacted, which I think some grocery stores do now.

There's quite a bit of energy that goes into washing containers as well.
Supposedly sometimes more than what is required to manufacture new ones.

I'm not sure we as society are really able to quantify the environmental costs
of each just yet.

~~~
detaro
We could at least get somewhat reasonable estimates I think, there should be
enough countries with bottle-collecting schemes to get useful data about
actual effort involved.

