
China Built a Vast New Infrastructure to Imprison Uighurs - amaajemyfren
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/meghara/china-new-internment-camps-xinjiang-uighurs-muslims
======
throwaway4good
This was discussed here just yesterday:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24292962](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24292962)

------
jaggirs
_BuzzFeed News identified 268 newly built compounds by cross-referencing
blanked-out areas on Baidu Maps with images from external satellite data
providers_

Pretty cool. Trying to hide the facilities made them easier to find.

~~~
whoevercares
CCP always does such bad propaganda thing. Ironically Everything it tried to
hide was always exposed fairly quickly, things it doesn’t hide turns out to be
less known

~~~
treeman79
You don’t need good propaganda when no one is allowed to argue against it.

There is one view point in China, free reeducation for anyone that disagrees.

Locally we now have “fact” checking to helpfully ensure everyone only hears
the one “truth”

------
bitxbit
It’s disgusting that nothing will be done because everyone is addicted to
cheap goods from China. If we cannot break free from current economic
arrangements even after the pandemic, we will never be able to do so.

~~~
amelius
Any trade agreement should have basic human rights mentioned in the first
paragraph.

This is something we _can_ actually fight for.

~~~
MichaelApproved
Even if it’s in there, it won’t be enforced.

Manufacturing is entrenched in China. Before you can threaten China, you need
to have a backup plan. Otherwise, it’ll call your bluff, like it’s doing
already.

~~~
fsflover
> Even if it’s in there, it won’t be enforced.

Please stop spreading learned helplessness. Problems are solved in baby steps.
You start with legislation. Without it, nothing will proceed.

~~~
franga2000
I don't see their comment as hopeless, but more as a necessary shift of
target. We can demand all we want, but as long as we can't survive without
them, we have no leverage. Punish businesses for violations in their supply
chain and make them move production back home. Only then can you start
demanding.

Orange Man tried to skip the first step and you see how well that worked...

~~~
amelius
Why call it a shift of target?

If I have to get groceries, but to do that I have to put on my shoes first, is
that then a shift of target?

We just have to make sure that in X years, the trade agreements have been
updated. We can leave the rest to the politicians.

~~~
franga2000
Because trade agreements are simply the wrong target. Even without a trade
agreement with China, companies would still use Chinese parts if it were
cheaper. Through things like blatant tax evasion, countless privacy violations
and the like, companies have shown that they value money over absolutely
everything, including the law.

We can put whatever we want in the trade agreements and it won't matter. But
if the companies are held accountable for their supply chain through high
fines and things like even license suspensions, they will work to solve the
problem because it's in their interest.

------
nedsma
Boycotting "Made in China" labelled products is not effective enough. How
would you motivate large population groups to engage globally? Politicians and
democratic countries should force China to stop torturing their own citizens
based on religious or ethnic affiliation.

~~~
arvigeus
Even if you do so, they will just put different label. Hello, "Made in
Vietnam"!

~~~
Nginx487
Luckily, customs officers do not believe product labels, they have more
reliable sources of information like port of departure. I guess, this
documentation also could be faked, just hope it's not that easy. Vietnam is a
competitor and adversary of China, they would try preventing "hijacking" of
their products

------
mola
Just buy less. Western consumerism gave China it's power. Have a leader who
the world believe he acts in good faith regarding ideals, and not busy
subverting ideals for game and profit.

But no, you'll choose power and war.

~~~
waihtis
Just _der Wille zur Macht_ at work.

After reading and accepting that thesis, the world has become a much more
obvious place for me personally.

~~~
dougmwne
I am not agreeing or disagreeing. I do think if you explained your idea
further, you'd get your point across better. Not everyone has read Nietzsche
in the original German.

------
mrfusion
What’s the background here? Why does China need to do this?

~~~
ufmace
Short version as I understand it - there was a little bit of Islamic terrorism
a decade or so ago. China decided to address it by basically wiping the entire
religion and culture out of existence. Thus why they call them
"deradicalization" and "re-education" camps. Their PR story is that they're
trying to take "suspected Islamic radicals" and reeducate them to "integrate
into mainstream Chinese society".

In practice, this seems to mean that if you're the wrong religion and so much
as breathe funny, off you go to the camps, where you will be basically
tortured and brainwashed into adopting Han Chinese culture.

------
euix
When I was traveling around Xinjiang about two years back it was obvious
something was going on.

In Korla everyone getting off the train had to submit to a retinal scan,
presumably so authorities know all the ingress and egress into town, going to
a park involved going through a checkpoint. To get into any train station at
all involved 3 levels of checkpoints, the first checkpoint started before you
got to the plaza before the train station, so checking in took about 3 hours.
In Kashgar the old city had checkpoints at every corner. The entire province
only had 3G, the moment you cross over from neighboring Gansu your China
Telecom signal dropped from 4G, so sending videos or even pictures is very
difficult even on weChat, if you try to do it through a VPN the experience is
even slower.

Some checkpoints were vigilant, but in my experience most were just bored. One
checkpoint basically forgot to check my ID because I was seated all the at the
back of a van. Young Uighur men or woman sometimes with a Han standing around
or sitting at a chair with a desk in the middle of the street, writing down
the names of everyone who crosses his "stand".

What surprised me the most was that most of the guards manning the checkpoints
in towns, highways, at gas stations (which involved a full car search in order
to pull into) were Uighurs themselves. I get the impression you basically went
to jail or joined the security apparatus, a modern variation on a old Chinese
strategem of using barbarian to fight barbarian I guess.

The whole experience changed my perspective on human beings in general. At the
end of the day, when I got back home the only conclusion I could come to
wasn't even about China or Chinese, if we look at the long span of human
history the only thing I can arrive at is human beings in aggregate have a
high tendency to do shitty things. Goodness exists in individuals but as soon
as we have to appeal to the common denominator of a group or groups more often
then not being a piece of shit is the easiest and most expedient.

~~~
jkhdigital
Amen to that last statement.

------
jkhdigital
Unrelated to the article content: is there any way to “escape” from full
screen maps embedded in a webpage? I scrolled down to the map of detention
facilities and found that I could no longer return to reading the article
because every interaction with my screen just manipulated the map.

------
newen
They are apartment complexes.

[https://twitter.com/_tchiek/status/1299386623390617601?s=20](https://twitter.com/_tchiek/status/1299386623390617601?s=20)

Sorry for not getting caught in this anti-China craziness that has gotten
Americans into a frenzy very very recently.

------
mcji
It all started with the "July 2009 Ürümqi riots" and then escalated after the
"2014 Kunming attack".

~~~
actuator
Can't really collectively punish a community for crimes of few, that's no
justice.

~~~
propagandist
I agree wholeheartedly. Let’s discuss this along with lifting collective
sanctions imposed on Cuba, Iran, Syria, and Venezuela. That is a form of
collective punishments that starves civilians. I’m very cynical about the
outrage re: those “re-education” sites. Not because they’re benign but because
nobody bats an eye when America commits similarly heinous acts. It seems like
a convenient deflection tactic.

~~~
Nginx487
Nope. Ban on hi-tech products and weapons do not affect starving civilians in
any way, this is solely responsibility of ruling dictators. Exactly like it
happened in Russia, in response of banning hi-tech from exporting to Russia,
our authorities imposed ban on importing food and medications.

------
dade_
Karl Marx on religion “Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the
expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is
the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the
soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.“

A popular song: Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to
kill or die for And no religion, too

The CCP is simply following a core tenant of communism. From the perspective
of the ideology, they are freeing people from religion.

A much more important quote, a warning about accepting new ideas that too few
heed today as always: “Let us keep our minds open, by all means, as long as
that means keeping our sense of perspective and seeking an understanding of
the forces which mould the world. But don’t keep your minds so open that your
brains fall out! There are still things in this world which are true and
things which are false; acts which are right and acts which are wrong, even if
there are statesmen who hide their designs under the cloak of high-sounding
phrases.”. — Walter Kotschnig November 8, 1939

~~~
OneGuy123
Well an atheist scientists perspective that "the big bang came out of nothing"
makes as much sense as any religious text to be honest.

~~~
TheUndead96
Very true. Big bang was actually first formulated by a Belgian Catholic
priest: [https://www.amnh.org/learn-teach/curriculum-
collections/cosm...](https://www.amnh.org/learn-teach/curriculum-
collections/cosmic-horizons-book/georges-lemaitre-big-bang)

~~~
ghthor
It's also likely wrong, see dr robitaille's work, sky scholar on YouTube.

------
pradn
It's important to realize that Xinjiang is a colony of China. China took over
Xinjiang in the past few hundred years; historically, kingdoms there were
independent. Sometimes they had tributary relationships, other times they were
allies of the Chinese kingdoms. Colonialism takes many forms and Europeans
don't have a monopoly on it. The Uyghurs have rebelled many times and even
formed short-lived states, the last before the Mao era. What was a territorial
annexation has taken on ideological (the Chinese state demanded ideological
adherence in art and politics just like in the rest of China ), economic
(Xinjiang is rich in mineral resources), and settler-colonial (Han Chinese
have been moving into Xinjiang in large numbers) aspects.

~~~
magicsmoke
In "the past few hundred years" the US took over the American continent and
cleaned up exceptionally well.

In a world of global competition singling out Xinjiang as a colony while
ignoring how China's biggest military threat is literally built on top of
colonial conquests isn't a fair comparison. Where is the line that makes
Xinjiang a "colony" while New York isn't? Is the US going to magically move
its navy back to its side of the Pacific and stop waving it menacingly around
China's oil shipping routes if China carves out Xinjiang and Tibet?

~~~
pradn
I'm explicitly trying to draw a parallel between other colonial states and
China. This isn't absolving other colonial states in any way.

The colony-empire relationship is a just a node along the gradient of
territory and domination. The relevant thing here is the continued persecution
of the Uyghur minority and the annexation of territory, and continued
resistance. It's similar to Kashmir under India, Palestine under Israel, and
East Timor under Indonesia.

------
pototo666
I am a Chinese. I don't think anyone outside Xin Jiang knows any details about
these.

My wife is from Xin Jiang. She is not Uighurs. I have been to Xin Jiang. I
don't think non-Uighurs in Xin Jiang knows the details about these.

They are like secrets. You know something is happening. But you don't know
what exactly is happening.

~~~
hajile
It's almost like their second part to this story interviewed people who had
been there and been in those camps...

------
mensetmanusman
Imagine how much positive impact Bezos could have on this if Amazon led the
way on identifying China’s reliance on western money to continue funding
cultural genocide. He could spend have of his money on this and still have
$100,000,000,000 to play with.

~~~
bhaskara2
Bezos must do what is right and delist China products or atleast enforce
country of origin on Amazon products

------
nedsma
John Oliver recently made a episode on the subject (China & Uighurs: Last Week
Tonight with John Oliver (HBO))
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8)
The Communist Party of China (CPC) are running sinicization and antireligious
campaigns of ethnic and religious minorities. The totalitarian and
authoritarian countries don't make good neighbors. China will be making
inroads into Taiwan soon if the world does not act.

~~~
aberseti
China is already more powerful than most of the world. The uphill battle that
lies ahead will be way harder than dealing with nazis.

------
TheUndead96
To those that believe that they would not have turned a blind eye during WWII
to the systematic extermination of Jews, the current generation has been given
a similar challenge. Where is your cancel-culture now? How will our children
think of us?

~~~
Darmody
Some of us don't have much power. I denounced it online several times, that's
all I can do.

People like Lebron James, who thinks of himself like a freedom fighter, when
he criticized China he ended up saying he was misinformed and he wasn't
educated about the issue.

He loves the money coming from China more than anything else. I want him to be
reminded by this. He put his millions before human lives, just like some nazi
collaborators did.

~~~
take_a_breath
==He loves the money coming from China more than anything else. I want him to
be reminded by this. He put his millions before human lives, just like some
nazi collaborators did.==

All of this could be said about our current President and his family. He has
far more power than LeBron James, maybe we should hold him accountable?

~~~
puranjay
To play devil's advocate: the west is now in a soft Cold War with China. Given
China's opaqueness, any media report about China has to be taken with a pinch
of salt, especially considering how the media has acted as the mouthpiece of
the state in the past (most notably in the entire Iraq WMD fiasco).

So while I certainly don't doubt that China is oppressing its minorities, I'm
also loathe to believe _every_ media report about it.

I know this isn't a popular opinion, but very objectively, western media does
not have a track record of being truthful when it comes to Cold War opponents.

~~~
take_a_breath
I don’t understand how this is playing devils advocate. How does it relate to
what I said?

------
krm01
I can't believe this isn't something people are rallying for. Nor can I
believe the mainstream media is hardly talking about it. The lessons from WWII
aren't stories that we should memorise as fun trivia facts.

~~~
DrBazza
Well... everyone could stop buying stuff on Amazon when you know it's mostly
made in China, but then again everyone wants cheap 'stuff' (and iPhones).

~~~
croes
And than? The whole system depends on cheap supply of goods. Look what happend
during the lookdown in China And it's not people want cheap stuff, most only
can afford cheap stuff. Money is a finite source, the more some people have,
the less have others.

~~~
mas3god
We can get cheaper goods from other developing nations

~~~
croes
Lower quality or equal worse human rights. You need a lot of man power and
environmental ignorance to feed our needs.

~~~
Nginx487
China became a synonym of low quality, whereas Vietnam has an experience of
being production hub for Nokia in a best company's years. Also, there are few
countries where situation with human rights worse than in China. In India and
Vietnam it is definitely better.

------
dharmach
Everywhere else communism and Islam are friends so why in China they are
enemies?

~~~
hh3k0
Your statement is wrong in two ways.

1) Communism and Islam can by no means be considered "friends", reason being
the antireligious policies that are inherent in Communism. You should read
less Breitbart.

2) China can hardly be considered a communist country, it has been turning
rapidly more capitalist ever since the official introduction of the 中国特色社会主义
theory in 1987.

~~~
derwiki
Google translates that as: > Socialism with Chinese Characteristics

What does that mean? I had guessed you were referring to special economic
zones, but that predates 1987. Thanks in advance.

~~~
hh3k0
Basically, it is the theory China used in order to justify the switch to State
Capitalism. Here's more on the theory:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_charact...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics)

------
newen
> This project was supported by the Open Technology Fund, the Pulitzer Center,
> and the Eyebeam Center for the Future of Journalism.

Hmmm

> The Open Technology Fund was created in 2012 as a pilot program within Radio
> Free Asia.

Okay

> Based on Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, Radio Free Asia was established in
> the 1990s with the stated aim of promoting democratic values and human
> rights, and diminishing the Communist Party of China.

> Radio Free Asia was founded and funded in the 1950s by an organization
> called "Committee for Free Asia" as an anti-communist propaganda operation,
> broadcasting from RCA facilities in Manila, Philippines.

So an article funded by a clearly biased anti-China propaganda organization
that uses flimsy satellite imagery evidence to accuse a country of massive
human rights abuses in order to rile up their population for another cold war
that will feed their military industrial complex for many more decades. Great.

------
submeta
My heart bleeds hearing about Uighurs suffering. And I welcome these kinds of
posts. At the same time I am wondering why news about Palestinians are flagged
and filtered away on HN. I read Haaretz on a daily basis, and what I read
about this corner of the world makes me lose my faith in humanity.

------
nafizh
I know and understand as single persons we don't have much power to do
anything. But if you live in a western democratic nation, time to use that
machinery. Call your Senator, MPs whoever your representative is. Let them
know inaction in the face of this atrocity is unacceptable. Keep calling all
Senators or members of parliaments. It might seem to have no effect, but
significant changes come when many people demand something. It has to start
somewhere.

Here is a site for resources and actions you can take [0].

0\. [https://www.saveuighur.org/act-now/](https://www.saveuighur.org/act-now/)

------
canada2020
Yes, this is bad. I think we can all agree on that.

But does anyone have sources on _how_ China got into this situation? They
wouldn't be detaining Uighurs at this scale for no reason. So what's the
history behind this?

I left a separate comment here of someone else who commented on the article
with a potential background reason (terrorism?). Although I'm not sure if can
rely on just that one comment, and would love to hear what HN thought.

A part of a civil discussion requires that we understand and seek out the
argument from all parties. As a society, we need to evolve from one-sided
arguments.

~~~
yorwba
Much has been written in the Chinese academic literature about the need for
new policing strategies in Xinjiang. Here's a reading list with English
summaries: [https://xinjiang.sppga.ubc.ca/policy-documents/chinese-
acade...](https://xinjiang.sppga.ubc.ca/policy-documents/chinese-academic-
discourse/) Of course the original articles are all in Chinese.

~~~
canada2020
Thanks! This is great. It appears that China's argument for Xinjiang are:

1\. Anti-terrorism / Religious Extremist Activities 2\. Poverty alleviation

We have certainly seen similar situations play out in the past (e.g. US &
Middle East), with different approaches. China's approach is to eliminate
"ethnic separatism" through these "re-education camps". Not ideal, for sure.
But what would be a better solution?

If we had terrorism in the US -- in fact, an entire state of people subscribed
to that mindset -- what's the best way to deal with that?

(This is, ofc, assuming China's terrorism claims are real)

~~~
hajile
The Chinese government itself admits that these people aren't formally charged
with any crime and that criminals go to different prisons. As they aren't
actually terrorists, this entire line of logic doesn't apply.

The Black population in the US is disproportionately impoverished. Should we
round them up into re-education camps?

It's policy based entirely in ethno-nationalism (racism).

The US had a Civil War over separation and slavery, but we didn't establish
re-education camps for all the people who were on the losing side. You didn't
see Germans forced into re-education camps after WW1 or WW2 (at least on the
non-USSR side).

I don't know of ANY instances of this kind of re-education thinking in first-
world countries. Even third-world countries don't usually consider this moral.
It's basically limited to second-world (communist) despotic countries. In
recent times, I've heard people talk about re-education camps in the US, but
(big surprise), they're always alt-left (communists, antifa, whatever).

------
canada2020
Reposting the top comment on the article, was wondering what HN thought about
this:

\------------------------------------------------------

Godfree Roberts:

We created terrorists in Xinjiang, just as we did in Afghanistan. They
murdered thousands of Chinese and, now that China has them under control, we
make up stories about them.

US Ambassador Chas. H. Freeman, Director for Chinese Affairs at the U.S.
Department of State from 1979-1981: "The CIA programs in Tibet, which were
very effective in destabilizing it, did not succeed in Xinjiang. There were
similar efforts made with the Uyghurs during the Cold War that never really
got off the ground. In both cases you had religion waved as a banner in
support of a desire for independence or autonomy which is, of course, is
anathema to any state. I do believe that people who live in glass houses
shouldn’t throw stones applies here. I am part American Indian and those
people are not here (in the US) in the numbers they once were because of
severe genocidal policies on the part of the European majority”. 8/31/19

~~~
canada2020
For those of you who are downvoting this comment, it would be much more
productive if you just reply and speak your mind here.

~~~
hajile
> We created terrorists in Xinjiang, just as we did in Afghanistan. They
> murdered thousands of Chinese and, now that China has them under control, we
> make up stories about them.

This argument is made in bad faith given the author's statements below. In any
case, the Xinjiang had attempted to get out from under China's thumb for
centuries. Does that "murdered thousands" suddenly give moral permission to
imprison, torture, and sell the organs of millions -- especially millions
who's only "crime" in this argument is having the wrong ethnicity. Finally,
the red revolution in China killed millions and then famine killed millions
more.

> I do believe that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones
> applies here. I am part American Indian and those people are not here (in
> the US) in the numbers they once were because of severe genocidal policies
> on the part of the European majority

Nobody alive today is rounding up American Indians (instead SCOTUS is giving
back half of Oklahoma). Can someone's children be held accountable for their
parent's actions?

That said, if the Chinese gave the Xinjiang and Tibet the same level of
autonomy that the US gives reservations today, I doubt anyone anywhere would
be complaining about anything. Once again, this is a bad faith argument.

> US Ambassador Chas. H. Freeman, Director for Chinese Affairs at the U.S.
> Department of State from 1979-1981: "The CIA programs in Tibet, which were
> very effective in destabilizing it, did not succeed in Xinjiang. There were
> similar efforts made with the Uyghurs during the Cold War that never really
> got off the ground. In both cases you had religion waved as a banner in
> support of a desire for independence or autonomy which is, of course, is
> anathema to any state.

The whole point of a banner is to serve as a rallying point for like-minded
people. If some random person on the street starts waving a nazi flag, does
that suddenly mean everyone turns into nazis?

A banner can only rally people who think they hold the position that banner
represents. The US could wave a religious banner, but unless the people
already agreed, it wouldn't build up support (it's not possible to parse
whether Xinjiang didn't rally because they didn't want to join or the rallying
cry was not heard).

If anything, the fact that the US tried to empower people to fight for their
independence from a despotic, racist regime who hated them should at least be
neutral if not morally just.

------
poisonarena
Buzzfeednews article on hackernews. slowly turning into reddit

~~~
borg_
I'm amazed how this link even made it to the HN front page. What's the
relevance does this article have for hacker news?

~~~
big_youth
You've been a member for long enough to know that the guidelines for posts
are: "Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more
than hacking and startups"

------
jialutu
Do you guys remember when a Chinese soldier beat up someone who was holding
the Koran? Well, except, it didn't happen:

[https://factcheck.afp.com/no-not-video-chinese-soldier-
beati...](https://factcheck.afp.com/no-not-video-chinese-soldier-beating-
uighur-muslim-having-copy-koran)

Also, when are people going to stop using satellite imaging as a proof of
evidence? I mean, let's not forget the whole casus belli for the last Iraq
war, where there was clear evidence of WMDs from all those satellite images
right? I mean, what's so different from the satellite image there and also a
random business park in the UK (besides the labels and tags of course, and I
used to be imprisoned in one of those blocks for most of my day that some
people would like to call an 'office'):

[https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6220549,-1.2900712,1099m/dat...](https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6220549,-1.2900712,1099m/data=!3m1!1e3)

There's quite a few good answers here on Quora which I reckon are worth a read
about the situation:

[https://www.quora.com/What-are-Uyghurs-doing-to-fight-
back-a...](https://www.quora.com/What-are-Uyghurs-doing-to-fight-back-against-
the-mistreatment-they-receive-from-China)

~~~
xupybd
The Chinese people are great. The country is awesome but the current
government is tyrannical. We know that millions died under Mao yet he is still
praised. That alone is enough for me to distrust the CCP.

~~~
ArtDev
This sums up my feelings about it as well. I have been to China. I know
Tibetans with heartbreaking stories about the direct impacts of government
tyranny.

------
blindspot557
This is another distraction for the current BLM movement and thousands of
death per day due to covid. I see a lot of hypocrite comments and I just want
to laugh. Meanwhile on the streets of Detroit or Baltimore ghettos,
kids/teenagers are under the influence of criminal culture and facing
generation after generation of poverty they may never come out of. And I see
no one even trying to figure out a solution.

~~~
bavent
And what does this have to do with the article? Every time there is a post
about the Chinese state committing some evil act, there is a post like this -
whataboutism at it’s finest. Usually written by a new account, usually written
in a way that makes it seem like English isn’t the primary language of the
poster.

~~~
blindspot557
Of course it does. They are all problems human beings facing when we trying to
put different cultures together and live in harmony and create prosperity. If
you can't even figure out what's happening near you, how can you assume you
will even have a total understanding about something happening on the other
side of the earth??

~~~
bavent
Because it's off-topic? It deflects from the discussion of how a totalitarian
state is essentially committing genocide and tries to compare that to social
problems in the U.S., which are not nearly on that scale.

------
caffed
Definitely bad and needs international attention.

China’s soft power will ensure that most countries won’t go beyond the usual
virtue signaling.

Also keep in mind that the USA still has the most imprisoned people in the
world by a large margin:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarce...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate)

[https://www.prisonstudies.org/sites/default/files/resources/...](https://www.prisonstudies.org/sites/default/files/resources/downloads/world_prison_population_list_11th_edition_0.pdf)

~~~
ikerdanzel
Do USA imprisonment do organ harvesting? Perhaps the current imprisonment
really is just a front to solve organs shortage.

~~~
rfoo
Do China imprisonment do organ harvesting?

~~~
TheUndead96
There is some evidence for this: [https://www.businessinsider.com/china-
harvesting-organs-of-u...](https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-
organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9)

~~~
cocoggu
Although anything is possible, this is no evidence, and I hardly believe it.

People lives are worthing much more than their organs when they are used for
labor so I don't see any reasonable benefit from doing that. Plus, Falun Gong
has a long history of fighting this, still without any evidences brought to
the table, so I have some doubts about their assumptions.

The issue in Xinjiang is already serious enough, no need to add some
unconfirmed facts which may just make us lose credibility if they're proved
fake.

~~~
dagenleg
> People lives are worthing much more than their organs when they are used for
> labor

I absolutely disagree with this claim. Forced labor is inherently inefficient
and barely cost-effective, especially in the modern age of mechanisation and
the lessons of soviet GULAGs proved just as much. Especially so in China,
which in no way suffers from a shortage of labor force.

~~~
cocoggu
It's true that China doesn't suffer from a shortage of labor force. However,
wages raised a lot, and almost-free labor is more interesting financially.
After second thoughts, I think it may be possible that on a regional scale,
local officials would find such practice highly profitable.

The party goal is not to be highly profitable (they are already), it's to stay
in power as long as they can. Of course money can help in that goal, but such
practices, if they leak and are confirmed, would just erode the stability of
the state. I feel the cons are too high and pros too low, politically, to do
such atrocities on a country scale.

------
publicola1990
The thing is, there is a definite anti China sentiment within the present US
government and many western media sources, in the sense that they seem to have
a definite desire to villify China in recent times.

So the claims presented by them are suspect in intent, since it seems so
evidently to suit their own world view.

While Chinese propaganda is suspect as is any propaganda, much western
reporting is also politically informed and therefore suspect.

Most reports on this topic going around are not from people on ground, whereas
western media including Reuters and BBC surely have people on ground in China,
what have we heard from them in actuality?

Recently BBC had people sent to such a camp and even filmed it. Surely there
is some political indoctrination going on, but nothing like the 'Concentration
Camps' as is being claimed in this article.

[https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-
china-48667221](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-48667221)

~~~
pierrebai
These article have been decried as being staged by the chinese government.
Here are other articles, from the BCC, about Uighurs:

    
    
       https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53657604
       https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cszl3q
       https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172x2ys9gxqv4g
       https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08lf6zk
       https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-50166713

