
Ask HN: Ok to ask retainer fee for being avail during office hours? - gbrits
I&#x27;m in the middle of negotiating a nice freelance gig. The client now wants me to be available large parts of the day during office hours so internal developers can run things by me and be more productive.<p>That&#x27;s all fine, except that part of the reason I&#x27;m freelancing is being able to be flexible in how I schedule my day.<p>Is it common to negotiate for an upfront retainer fee based on this? After all, I&#x27;m committing myself to be available for solely said client during the agreed on hours.<p>Another way would of course be to try and get a higher hourly wage, but it seems better from a negotiating standpoint to split to two.<p>Thoughts?<p>-EDIT-
To be clear, the time that I need to be available for them are billable hours, i.e.: to get the primary job done for which I&#x27;m hired.<p>On top of that I need to be available for internal developers during those hours should the need arise. I therefore have to structure my working hours around the office hours of the client.<p>Therefore a retainer fee would sit on top of billable hours and would compensate for my lack of flexible working hours NOT incurred opportunity costs.
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hoodoof
The way to handle it is to offer it but don't require that they take it.

"OK we have three options regarding tech support. First is best effort
response time which costs you nothing, next option is 3 day response time
which costs $X, final option is 365 X 5 days 9-5 on call tech support which
costs $300/week plus $100/hour per call out." Which would you like?

~~~
brudgers
$300 per day and $250 per call-in hour.

An obligation to answer all phone calls immediately affects other obligations.
A one person shop has no slack staff.

~~~
mauricemir
quite 15! years ago at BT the call out rates where $750 per month for 30 min
response for 1 in 4 (plus toil at OT rates)

~~~
rmc
Can you explain what "30 min response for 1 in 4" means? Does that mean 25% of
calls will be answered within 30 mins?

~~~
mauricemir
You had to make contact within 30 mins when paged/called and be working on the
problem within 2 hours.

1 in 4 is being on call 1 week in 4 though some DBA's where on 4 in 4 and got
called about twice a year _very_ lucrative.

~~~
rmc
Thanks, that makes sense. Where does the 2 hours come from? I don't see that
included in the original thing, or is it implied/standard?

~~~
mauricemir
Part of deal you had to make contact within the first time 20 or 30 min and be
logged in and working within the 2h.

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jasonkester
Another option, since the guys whose job it is to point this out seem to have
taken the morning off, would be to simply charge more.

If somebody is paying several thousand dollars per day for your time, two
things will happen. First, they'll be more respectful of your time, partly
because it's so damn expensive, and partly because they don't seem you as that
kid who does their web stuff, but rather as a professional like themselves who
are not to be bothered lightly.

But secondly, you'll find that there is in fact a dollar figure for which you
won't really _mind_ being woken up at 10:30 am and asked to do a few hours'
work.

~~~
serve_yay
When you make a good income, it turns your thinking from "Can't believe I
gotta do this stuff for these assholes" to "As long as these assholes keep
paying me like this I'll do this dumb stuff".

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DrJokepu
Are you in the UK? If you're freelancing through a limited company (as opposed
to being a sole trader) you should check with your accountant to make sure
you're not running afoul of IR35 before agreeing to this. On the other hand,
if you're a sole trader they need to be careful to make sure that such an
arrangement would not count as "deemed employment".

~~~
gbrits
Nope I'm in the Netherlands, but we have similar rulings, e.g.: need 3 clients
per year at least for contract not to be considered 'employment'. I'll need to
lookup if these type of 'retainer agreements' can affect this. Cheers for
bringing this up.

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bryanlarsen
I disagree with the prevailing sentiment here. Availability during standard
office hours is an expected part of any free-lancing gig. Nobody expects you
to be available for the full 8 hours, but it is always expected that you will
be available during a predetermined part of the day. Just ask any contractor
in India or Poland doing a contract for a North American company.

In other words, you should say something like "$X for office hours
availability. I'll give you a discount if you drop that requirement".

Charging separately for that will raise flags at the client's end. Also, many
enterprises find it easier to deal with higher bundled rates than with more
complicated structures.

That being said, what kind of availability are they asking for? AFAICT, the
standard is for "same day" response. If they send a question in the morning, a
response of some kind is expected in the afternoon, and vice versa. Much more
than that justifies higher rates, IMO.

~~~
hatu
Agreed, I was expecting this to be about late night/weekend calls of
"everythings broken! help!". I don't know how you'd say you charge extra for
normal office hours.

~~~
Silhouette
_I don 't know how you'd say you charge extra for normal office hours._

It's the same reason that as the operator of a small business you can't just
walk into your accountant's or lawyer's or bank manager's office and expect to
see them without making an appointment. You _could_ probably have a dedicated
account manager at those places, and they'll probably be happy to provide one
as long as you're paying them some multiple of the corresponding employee's
annual salary for doing so.

Remember, you're running a business. You're not a member of your client's
staff. That means they're paying you for the product or service you're
providing according to your contract, not for being a bum on a seat for some
fixed hours. It also means you will have necessarily other commitments in
terms of business administration and potentially other clients. Anything that
reduces your flexibility to do these other things or particularly that
requires a degree of exclusivity for a single client is a big commitment and
should be charged accordingly.

Personally, I wouldn't accept a long-term gig with fixed hours or on-site
working. I also value the freedom that comes from working independently, and I
have no wish to go back to more of an employer-employee relationship. If a
client wants to work that way for a sensible reason and over short period (a
few days during a crucial period leading up to launching a product, for
example) then I wouldn't turn it down automatically, but my rates would be
_much_ higher (several times the normal rate I work off for my time, and
multiplied up again if the engagement might then be deemed disguised
employment and taxed accordingly).

------
vinceguidry
You use a retainer when you're worried they're not going to use you enough and
you need a minimum amount of cash just to make it worthwhile.

The danger here is this arrangement can turn into you being an effectual
employee that's getting shafted on everything an employee gets. The proper
deterrence here is a sufficiently high hourly rate so that it becomes really
painful for them to do that for more than a short time.

So yes, absolutely raise your hourly. The fact that they can ask you to be so
available means your rate is too low. So raise your rates such that you'd be
really, really comfortable, rich even, if they decide to do that. Then when
they do, you won't feel like you're getting shafted.

$250 an hour (or the equivalent in your currency) is a good start.

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brudgers
Normal professional availability is one thing. A contractual obligation to be
responsive at a client's beck and call is another. Charging a my-time-costs-
real-money-and-this-is-a-pain-in-the-ass rate for fast service is perfectly
reasonable.

It is also reasonable to flat out refuse. A client who doesn't think a
designated point of contact is a good way to handle a contract may be a bit if
a red flag.

Finally, it is perfectly reasonable to recognize that it is not a service you
can provide as a small consultancy and walk away. A high maintenance client
can kill the ability to maintain a diverse backlog.

Good luck.

------
davismwfl
Freelance doesn't mean you aren't responsible to clients during normal hours.
But it does mean that you can generally can have a more flexible schedule.

My comments below assume this client knows you are not a dedicated resource to
them, if they expect you are then you are really just a contract employee and
then you need to be available all X hours of their workday and it is not
reasonable to charge any additional fees.

First, set your hourly rate: $XXX/per hour of working hours. This doesn't
vary.

For support/training questions, 24 hour response on all questions no
additional costs. You should always make an effort to answer fairly quickly
even with this. Cap it to Weekday only, meaning a question answered on Friday
afternoon may not be answered until Monday.

Optionally, 4 hour response on all questions, additional cost of $xxxx per
month for the guaranteed response time. If the question takes more than 15
minutes to research and answer then you also get your billable rate in
increments of 15 minutes with a 1 hr minimum. Also, put a cap on the number of
questions within an 24 hour period that qualify for the 4 hour response time.
Ask me how I know, DOH!

From this template you can play with the numbers, response time etc. But
effectively if they know you are not dedicated to them, then all this is
reasonable. We sign these regularly with clients and don't really hear any
complaints. In fact we went to this because we would get complaints from
clients that sent us an email on Tuesday at 2pm and didn't get a response from
us until late that night or the next morning. So I instituted the 24hr
response unless you pay for dedicated access. Since then I haven't had any
complaints and honestly we get back to people faster because they are paying
for it. The other side affect is you can hire contractors yourself to help
cover questions when needed because you have the revenue to support it.

------
snorkel
Since you took on freelancing in order to have freedom, then I would not
surrender that freedom for a marginal financial bump.

I would tell the client you are available by phone or email during business
hours, and that you will answer the phone, but you might not be at your desk.
If you have a lot of conflicting meetings (ie. other clients) then lay out
specific hours of availability to at least answer the phone.

I feel the client would be assured if you just answered the phone when needed
during business, but you don't necessarily have to be sitting at your desk
when the phone rings.

I would try this arrangement as best effort, and avoid hard-coding your hours
into a contract, and as long as the client doesn't complain that you haven't
been answering the phone then all is well.

------
brudgers
Upsell.

"Unfortunately I don't offer that particular service."

"However I can offer a six month package of weekly onsite training at my
onsite training rates."

------
schmrz
It's definitely ok, and it will probably work out better for you than asking a
higher hourly wage. The client may of course be reluctant to accept this if
they haven't done any similar arrangements before.

As a side note, having flexible hours is great if you need that kind of
flexibility in your life. If you don't, consider billing by day/week.

------
comeonnow
How about instead you discussu a SLA (Service Level Agreement). For example
you agree that emails / calls are to be acknowledged or responded within 1
hour during 9-5 Mon-Fri for £/$XXX per month.

You could go a step further any have different levels, so for a higher monthly
rate you'd respond within 30 minutes, etc etc.

------
drrob
For a couple of years, back in 2008-2009, I had a freelance support gig with a
former employer who I'd built a system for when I was a permie. We didn't have
any real solid agreement on my availability, and the deal was for £100 a week,
paid 4 times a year. I'd moved on to contracting, so I had to juggle my new
full-time work with the support phone calls.

I'd stick with keeping it separate, rather than the higher hourly wage. I'd
also try and put a limit on the amount they can contact you (perhaps a maximum
number of hours per day), as I had occasions when for weeks I'd have no phone
calls, and then on one day spend 6-7 hours on the phone to them.

------
davidroetzel
I am also pro-retainer. I look at it this way: If under this agreement you
realistically need to spend some time every day (or every other day, or even
one day a week) for this client you need to plan ahead for this. And that
means you cannot offer full-time work to other clients. So if you turn down
other clients and then only sit around waiting for a call that never comes,
you are losing money.

A retainer that guarantees your availability and a fixed amount of hours seems
to benefit both sides and is not at all unusual in my experience.

------
ams6110
Check with your accountant/tax advisor about this too. If a client is
requiring specific hours or availability, the IRS may consider you to be an
employee not a contractor. (I'm assuming you are based in the US but similar
considerations may apply elsewhere).

One of the key "tests" for contractor status is that you determine when you do
the work. It's not the only consideration, but combined with other
requirements of the contract it could tip in the direction of you being
considered an employee.

~~~
kefka
I would be apt to think that if there was a fair meeting of the minds, and not
a Uber based over the barrel "agreement", then this is a non-issue.

Every case where 1099's have complained, is because they are employees where
the company tried to shove employment risk to the 1099.

~~~
Silhouette
_I would be apt to think that if there was a fair meeting of the minds, and
not a Uber based over the barrel "agreement", then this is a non-issue._

I don't know about the US, but the fixed hours/degree of client control is
_definitely_ an issue for employee vs. independent status in some places, and
something you need to check in your local rules if you're in this position.
Different places have very different rules about when to consider someone a
disguised employee and probably tax either or both parties accordingly, and in
some places the rules seem to be quite black and white.

------
m12k
If they are paying you to work on-site, then it makes sense for them to have
some say in when that happens, or you might as well have been working
remotely. It's hard to fault them for wanting to let their own team get a
chance to understand the tech, so your project does not become yet another
"PoS left by some consultant" that nobody wants to touch.

I'd suggest seeing if perhaps you can reach a compromise where you retain some
flexibility, but there's a bunch of your hours that are sure to overlap with
the office hours (e.g. always be on-site for 3-4 hours around noon). And maybe
you'd even only have to do this part of the week, e.g. mon-wed-fri? With most
conflicts, the solution is usually to have both parties answer the question
"what are you trying to achieve?" and then working together to find a third
solution that satisfies both parties, instead of focusing too much on the
schism between the two proposed solutions that the parties had come up with
individually.

If all this is a big hassle for you then by all means, charge accordingly, and
in the future think more about what kinds of gigs you take on and how much
face time they are likely to require. Maybe 'remote only' is a better fit for
you?

------
highlander
It's certainly OK to ask. Think about what you are prepared to negotiate if
the client seems inflexible. For example, does your fee really need to be paid
upfront? Sometimes if you are dealing with a large/inflexible client it can be
hard to get them to do anything outside their 'standard shape' of deal, but of
course that depends on your bargaining power and the level of influence of
your client within the organisation.

------
reboog711
[start quote] The client now wants me to be available large parts of the day
during office hours [end quote]

I'm not sure what "be available" means in this context.

I just lost a client because they wanted responses--including completed
development--within an hour. I said I had other clients / projects /
commitments and couldn't guarantee dropping everything for their [relatively]
small commitment.

I tried to negotiate a "Same day acknowledgement" and "next day look at code";
but that seemed to be a no-go.

I did not try to negotiate on-call rates because I didn't want to give up my
flexibility [but it may have been a valid approach]

So, do they expect you to be on call? Do they expect immediate response, or
hourly response? If so, then I'd take one of two approaches. Either a retainer
for being available and then your normal hourly rate. Or no retainer; but
double your normal hourly rate.

Or can you get on by just negotiating office-hours with this client; as others
have suggested. "The best time to reach me is between 2 and 4; and I'll get
back to you as soon as possible that time in the unlikely case that I miss
your call/IM/Text/Email."

Or can you just make it up as you go. "As long as you call before noon; I'll
get back to you the same day; otherwise it may be after close of business, or
during the next business day"

Overall, a client request that you are available during office hours is
perfectly reasonable. But, the level of commitment required from you is what
needs to be determined would affect billing rates.

------
jeffmould
I think the bigger question is when you say "available large parts of the day"
do they want you on site at their location during that time or simply
available via phone/email during that time?

If it simply phone/email, you could consider like @hoodoof said with setting
up a tiered support pricing plan. With phone/email only you can still work on
other projects you just need to respond to their requests promptly during that
time which can be worth an additional amount.

On the flip side if they want you onsite during that time it becomes a
completely new ball game as you are unable to service other clients during
that time which can impact your income. In this case I would build that cost
into the contract, not necessarily charge a retainer.

Finally, as @y0mbo was saying, if the client just wants to know you are
available during their office hours compared to working at night then no you
can't charge an additional fee for this. This may be the case if they are in a
different time zone and want to ensure that they can reach you to discuss the
project and such. Again, if this is the case I would build the cost into the
contract.

------
chrisbennet
If they want you to to be available when it isn't convenient for you, either:

\- refuse

\- negotiate some sort of middle ground (like being available during
overlapping work hours if you are in different time zones or 3-4pm every day)

\- charge an "on call fee" for the X hours a day that they want you available
on call - whether they use those hours or not.

As a professional, many things you do have a real value to your clients and
you shouldn't feel weird charging for them. You probably would place real
value on having a locksmith come out to on Sunday to get you back into your
house for example. The locksmith is going to charge you a certain premium over
what he might normally charge if you called him out on a weekday.

Examples of things you should charge for or charge more for:

\- Driving out to the clients for a meeting. That 2 hour meeting cost _you_ 2
hrs plus X hours of commute time during which you can't do paying work for
another client.

\- Anything that transfers risk to you from the client. If you would charge
$100 hour for something, charge $150 (at least) for doing the same thing under
a fixed price contract.

\- Anything that helps make the client more money - even if it is "easy" for
you.

------
jmspool
If it's a retainer, then they pay you up front for a certain number of hours
you'll be available. This can be at a higher fee than the other work.

Another alternative is to just have an on-demand hourly rate that is higher
than your normal rate. You could have pre-scheduled "office hours" at the
regular rate, but if they want you at other times, they get to decide to pay
you a little more.

------
mml
I'd harden your mind a little bit. You're not some lowly supplicant "asking"
for x, y or z. You are a skilled professional (hopefully). You REQUIRE or
DEMAND rates that befit your skill. If you go into a negotiation with the
mindset of asking, you have already lost. Strange, but true.

~~~
CyberFonic
I second this suggestion.

It is your life, so you decide what price you want to put on the reduction on
your freedom and flexibility. It might also help to understand the full
ramifications of what you are being asked for. Unfortunately, I've seen
retainer agreements come to grief because the terms and conditions were not
sufficiently clearly spelt out.

Many clients ask you to yield an inch and then take a whole mile. Very hard to
push back on escalating demands when you haven't set limits clearly.

------
CRidge
I think you make a good point. In a similar situation (I wasn't personally
involved), I know the consultant charged 20 % of the normal rate for being "on
duty" and charged the normal rate for every begun half hour of active service.
Had it been me, I would have used a similar model.

------
sqldba
IMHO it's pretty much standard. If you're "on call" for another company, even
during business hours, that needs to be written in a contract, and you should
put a dollar figure on it.

------
NicoJuicy
It's a service you provide, ask for a higher overall hourly fee during office
hours, split the hourly fee between standby time and normal fee so the client
knows the difference.

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jawngee
I think a retainer fee is a bad idea and this isn't really what a retainer fee
is for anyways, so it's kind of weird.

Your client doesn't really care why you are freelancing and unless you are
like the best of the best at what you do, I'd urge you not to bring this up as
part of your pricing strategy. It makes it sound like you are a pita to work
with.

I only do day rate. No hourly, no project based pricing. Covers this kind of
situation perfectly.

And, of course they want you available during office hours.

------
WhitneyLand
I wouldn't structure it like this. It's more complicated and risks giving the
impression that you are nickel and diming them or are too much trouble to deal
with.

I would work out a flat rate that is as competitive but still makes it worth
your while to accommodate their requests. Later they may even relax the
requirement and you'll still be getting the higher rate.

~~~
brudgers
Standard accounting practice is to bill everything billable.

Collecting the nickels and dimes is just good business. If the client wishes
to avoid being billed for nickels and dimes, they may wish to negotiate terms
based on the value of avoiding it. However, any going concern will already
have an accounts payable process in place that swallows up all nickel and dime
invoices regardless of source.

Any client who complains about nickel and dime invoices is just nickeling and
diming. Nickling and diming while trying to make the nickels and dimes as
large as possible is the core principle of the time and materials consulting
business model. Eating invoices is a way of marketing a company as not-
neccessary-to-pay.

None of which is to say that you should nickel and dime your friends. Just
your friends' businesses.

------
polskibus
Yes, you should do it. Don't forget to bill for commute time & expense (I mean
factor it into higher cost for the client, do not make it explicit). It's also
good to discuss what happens if you're ill and should not be commuting to
clients' office - you just don't bill them for onsite mode.

------
rch
I'm of the opinion that a retainer (+hourly) generally works out best for both
parties. The value derived from a better working relationship far outweighs
simply being available for quick phone calls.

------
daedecai
Why not agree to let them schedule meetings at least 24 hours in advance
during office hours instead of you sitting there waiting? Pull versus push is
always better. Then just bill them the regular rate.

------
noelwelsh
Guaranteed income without having to do any work? Sign me up! You can crank low
focus jobs like email and get paid to do it. I don't know why you wouldn't
want a retainer.

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y0mbo
Your client wants to be able to communicate with you? How dare they!

I'm not sure I understand why this is something you should be compensated for
outside of the gig itself. Communication is a basic part of any business
relationship.

You are a freelancer. Yes, that means you have the freedom to schedule your
day. It does not mean, however, you can completely disappear and ignore your
client's team just because you'd rather work at night. That's unprofessional.

~~~
jasonswett
It sounds to me more like the OP doesn't want to be peppered with 30-second
bits of communication all day while he's trying to work on something else. You
can't keep billing Client A while you're responding to an email from Client B,
but if it's a 5-minute thing, what are you going to do, clock out and clock
back in again all day?

So the communication from one client could be disruptive to other work, i.e.
it could make a person lose money. If making a certain agreement with a client
would cause me to lose money, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that I would
either charge for it or not agree to do it at all. In my experience,
reasonable clients respect this.

------
mauricemir
So they want exclusivity for those hours then bill those hours ie a full day.

------
daedecai
Why not agree to let them schedule meetings during office hours instead of you
sitting there waiting? Push versus pull is always better.

