
People’s egos get bigger after meditation and yoga, says a new study - jxub
https://qz.com/1307380/yoga-and-meditation-boost-your-ego-say-psychology-researchers/
======
maxxxxx
People need to understand that the stuff like meditation that's popular right
now and gets taught is just a very small subset of Buddhist practice. Real
Buddhist teachings go much further. Same for yoga. Yoga is meant to be a way
of life but what most Westerners see is just a form of aerobics with a few
spiritual words sprinkled in.

~~~
drb91
Ironically, the biggest evidence of this here might be the idea that the ego
should be kept as small as possible. Whether or not it's a real thing, it
still needs maintenance (arguably a huge benefit of meditation), and there's
probably a healthy size (though I hate this spatial metaphor; people are far
more complex than that).

~~~
creep
The ego is a tool. Ego death is temporary and should not be aimed for 24/7\.
In a 3D, physical world, the ego is what you use to differentiate your actions
from others, to take responsibility, and to make changes. We can recognize and
feel deeply that we are all connected, but an ego-less person in a physical
world is like a formless void, and has forgotten it's point in being alive.

~~~
ethn
Yes, it's necessary to live in the world.

------
mettamage
> When students were evaluated in the hour after their yoga class, they showed
> significantly higher self-enhancement, according to all three measures, than
> when they hadn’t done yoga in the previous 24 hours.

I wonder, is this what ego means in Buddhism? Also, is this what ego
historically meant in Buddhism? For a long time, people in Buddhist
communities would call you crazy if you meditate. Having followed one
theological course on Buddhism at the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, I am
convinced that whenever you study meditation, you need a theologian
specialized in Buddhism next to you in order to see if you're comparing the
same constructs.

I also wonder if _only_ meditation is supposed to have an effect on
diminishing the ego, according to Buddhism. Buddhism in general is much more
than only meditation. It's probably analogous to teaching people to pray and
through prayer they'll figure out the 10 commandments. The result is
interesting in the sense of how meditation affects someone from a western
culture (someone like me). But it is dangerous to imply that this applies to
Buddhism. They could've easily circumvented that by putting the scientific
terms in the title.

~~~
rfugger
Even if yoga or meditation had diminished your ego (whatever you choose it to
mean), would that make you less likely to answer affirmatively to a statement
like, "Compared to the average, I'm relatively free from bias"? If you really
were selfless, wouldn't you always answer "yes"? Or would you answer "no"
because "the average" has no meaning once you realize oneness with everything?
I'm not convinced it's a useful measure.

There may be other better questions on the inventory, but that's the example
given in the article. I also noted that they didn't mention practitioners
having scored higher on narcissism, but only on "self-enhancement". (I haven't
read the actual study, so this could all just be bad reporting.)

~~~
_rpd
Here's the study ...

[https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/420273/](https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/420273/)

Ego is measured by answering questions like ...

> “At the moment, I have high self-esteem” (1 = does not apply at all, 7 =
> applies completely).

I'm unconvinced that vague self-reports like this have any useful meaning.

------
tacon
The Onion nailed the West's current interest in yoga twenty years ago[0], and
it's only gotten worse. It's amazing how much money you can make as long as
you divorce religion and spirituality from a practice optimized over a
thousand years by religious and spiritual experts. Sort of like having an
amazing search light but not the slightest idea where to point it or what we
are searching for would look like.

[0] [https://www.theonion.com/monk-gloats-over-yoga-
championship-...](https://www.theonion.com/monk-gloats-over-yoga-
championship-1819563855)

~~~
d0lph
I'm not really interested in buddhism, but have practiced meditation. I have
to say meditation itself brings a great calmness, especially for my anxiety,
and I was quite skeptical when it was recommended.

I think meditation should be examined outside of the scope of eastern
mysticism, it need not be associated with it.

~~~
titzer
> I think meditation should be examined outside of the scope of eastern
> mysticism, it need not be associated with it.

While there is always an airy of "hoaky mysticism" to most religions, one
possible self-consistent explanation is that that this "hoaky mysticism" of
eastern religions might in fact be the logical consequence of thousands of
hours, days, weeks, months, years, of meditation. Maybe western self
improvement is just in fact a precursor to a precursor to the final
enlightenment that hey, none of this self-improvement shit matters?

~~~
Bakary
>Maybe western self improvement is just in fact a precursor to a precursor to
the final enlightenment that hey, none of this self-improvement shit matters?

These are hardly new concepts in the West. It's even in Ecclesiastes.

------
lhorie
The methodology seems strange. Questionnaires were compared based on whether
yoga students had just done yoga, vs not in 24 hours (but presumably do yoga
regularly). So essentially, there's a statistically significant correlation
with time from last session, but it doesn't say anything about correlation
with frequency of sessions.

And as usual, correlation is not causation. Was there a control group with
another physical activity? Reading? Solving Sudoku puzzles? One could also
postulate a perfectly reasonable-sounding theory that people's egos get bigger
with any activity where there's a surge in endorphins, regardless of whether
that activity is yoga or not.

~~~
theredking
Very well said.

------
olfactory
There is a big difference between ego and narcissism.

Many people have low self-esteem, which means that they are constantly
doubting themselves, feeling less worthy than others, feeling destined for
failure, feeling too timid to take reasonable risks, etc.

Meditation helps to restore correct ego functioning in humans, creating a
balanced perspective where the self can thrive and does not inflict self-harm
by allowing impulses of self doubt and fear to hijack a person's productive
effort.

The idea that selfless humans are simply humans with very low self esteem is
absurd, and this article suggests that the two are equivalent.

Humans who possess the virtuous quality of being good team players and
contributors to society are quite likely very good at goal directed behavior
and do not wallow in the emotions of self-inferiority and fearfulness that low
self-esteem individuals do.

Think about the stereotypical low self esteem douche who goes around insulting
others to make himself feel better. That person is not a model of selflessness
and virtue. It takes a deep well of inner confidence and belief in the value
of one's own worth to be mentally strong and courageous enough to stand up to
injustice or ridicule and to make the world a better place.

The issue of self esteem is confounded by millennia of religious dogma that
tells people that "selflessness" is virtuous, when in fact quite the opposite
is true. Virtue comes from the channeling of one's desire and one's life force
toward noble ends, not by suppressing one's confidence and simply letting
others (such as religious or political leaders) tell us that we are worthless
and that they know what is best for us.

~~~
drb91
Yea, I found this positioning odd too. Many people in my life could use some
more, err, self love and maintenance. This is hard to balance right, but
that's something meditation would help with massively.

------
spinach
"To advance this perspective, millions of people around the world practice
yoga and meditation."

I don't think this is true though. I don't think most people who aren't
Buddhist do Yoga for renouncing the material world, but just for getting in
shape and perhaps relaxing. I think the premise here is wrong.

~~~
KennyCason
Totally agree. I had to stop reading after reading: "These findings suggest
that spiritual Buddhist practices like yoga and meditation may not do what
proponents typically say they do"

I think comparing yoga/mediation in the context of our current society versus
how a Buddhist practices is very apples and oranges.

------
131012
The conflation of Buddhism and Yoga is orientalism and confuses everything in
this article. Funny results though.

~~~
poisonarena
Buddhism is just a form of Hinduism

~~~
bdamm
That's simplifying things too much. You might as well claim that Islam is just
a form of Christianity.

~~~
theredking
Indian Hindu here, you are absolutely correct

------
calt
The data is fascinating, but the conclusion that this is somehow apposed to
Buddhism is just absurd. A healthy sense of self worth does not stand in the
way of eliminating the view of a separate, persistent self for the betterment
of all beings.

------
sessy
I think many here are mistaken that yoga/meditation are of Buddhist origins.
They are in fact of Hindu origin.

Yoga mainly focuses on 1. Exercises that stimulate the base of the spine, and
2. Breathing technics. If you imagine the brain as a flower and the spine as a
stalk/root; a flower needs stimulation at the root for it to blossom. The
focus on breathing is to get more oxygen to the brain. Combinedly these two
help improve the potential of your brain.

Yoga does not necessarily make you a good person. It just enhances the
knowledge/potential of your brain. You can use that advanced knowledge to
become a good person or a bad person.

~~~
hexane360
"Yoga does not necessarily make you a good person."

Of course.

"It just enhances the knowledge/potential of your brain."

I'm gonna need a study here.

------
cypherpunks01
This immediately reminded me of Chögyam Trungpa's book "Cutting Through
Spiritual Materialism".

Wikipedia: "He uses the term [Spiritual Materialism] to describe mistakes
spiritual seekers commit which turn the pursuit of spirituality into an ego
building and confusion creating endeavor, based on the idea that ego
development is counter to spiritual progress." [1]

Very interesting read, a good friend of mine gave it to me early on in my path
on meditation. I think it's really a necessity for anyone seeking deeper
meaning beyond using yoga & meditations as an ego pursuit.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_Through_Spiritual_Mate...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_Through_Spiritual_Materialism)

~~~
sertsa
Was going to mention this book as well. This should be hammered on from the
beginning of any practice.

While anecdotal, my experience with interacting with most western followers of
"eastern" practices is that they just use them to feed their egos.

------
protonimitate
>> Though yoga and meditation were originally intended as ways to calm the
ego, many non-Buddhist practitioners do these activities with an eye to self-
improvement or calming personal anxieties.

I have noticed meditation being pitched more and more as a self-
help/productivity tool/cure all for a range of issues. Is the main difference
between 'traditional' (for lack of a better word) and Western meditation just
the motive behind it, or is there something else Westerners are missing?

~~~
b6
I don't think westerners are missing anything, at least not anything more than
people who live in places where Buddhism is typically practiced. I'm western,
I live in Thailand, I'm a meditator, and I often feel like some Buddhist
scholar compared to Thai people. I think many people feel Buddhism is sort of
re-blooming in the west, of course with its own style. There are a bunch of
highly respected western monks now, even in the Thai forest tradition.

I think it's just easy to get confused about this stuff. There's the goal,
there's how the goal is supposed to be accomplished, there's what you actually
do every day, and there are various related practices. It's easy to get
confused and think that the things that are happening are the point, like that
calming down is the point, or that rapture is the point, or even that bowing
to monks a certain way or donating things to the temple is the point.

~~~
maxxxxx
It's pretty normal for people to grow up in Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Whatever
culture not know much about that religion. I grew up in a Christian country as
a nominal Christian but I know almost nothing about Christianity other than a
few holidays and stories.

------
ghostbrainalpha
I wonder if doing any form of work or exercise would increase someone's
ego...?

I've been performing an experiment the last two years were I don't really do
anything outside of work. I just sit on the couch being a fat piece of shit.
No exercise. No Yoga. No mediation. I think it has helped me keep my ego under
control, and foster a healthy amount of self hatred.

------
bytematic
This is actually an interesting subject. There is a Dao "master" who chiefs a
temple in California and he wrote his dissertation on how meditation is
actually bad for you. I believe he is featured on the "What's this dao all
about" podcast but he doesn't go too far into the subject there.

~~~
andrewl
Bytematic, I'd be quite interested if you could track down the details on him
and his research.

~~~
vecinu
I think OP meant `What's this Tao all About?` found here:
[http://whatsthistao.com/](http://whatsthistao.com/)

The episode regarding meditation is Episode 4
([http://whatsthistao.com/2015/09/21/epiosode-4-meditation/](http://whatsthistao.com/2015/09/21/epiosode-4-meditation/))
but I would be weary of the source as Dr. Carl Totton is a "Reiki master" and
Chinese spiritual healer.

I personally believe meditation is fantastic in calming the mind and relaxing
you.

~~~
rfugger
That podcast only has positive things to say about meditation. I found his
dissertation mentioned a few places, but couldn't find the actual document...

~~~
bytematic
I miswrote my original comment, I didn't mean to suggest anyone thought that
meditation was bad. Just that someone who is probably more justified to write
on the subject, had once wrote that it was bad and he still talks about it.

------
tinbad
Why is this surprising? Any spiritual practice is a way to better ones "self".
My yogi friend put it well: the difference is with yoga and meditation the
goal is to get rid of things, while in "the west" we generally associate
happiness with having more things.

~~~
sonnyblarney
It's surprising because 'selflessness' and thinking highly of oneself are a
somewhat inconsistent.

I wish I had the source for this but I read somewhere the first obstacle to
the path of enlightenment is the self righteousness of the aspirant ... i.e.
as soon as someone starts learning higher truths, their sense of ego expands,
which is kind of the opposite of the point.

~~~
lmohseni
A sort of Dunning–Kruger effect for the soul? :)

------
throw2016
This is like saying working out and gyms make the 'ego bigger'. Maybe those
who want to 'improve themselves', be fit may already have bigger egos and a
self focus to start with. A study on gym goers would produce identical maybe
worse results.

Sweeping assumptions on large groups and immeasurable concepts like ego are
rarely credible because you will never have the kind of data to justify any
blanket claims.

This seems more like a 'fetishisation' of the other based on a lack of
understanding, and often there is no desire to understand, just label and
dismiss. Why would anyone even do a study like this?

------
jdtang13
Western "Buddhism" is totally messed up, and you can see this from the strange
behaviors of its practitioners. The majority of Buddhists in the West aren't a
part of a community with a living Buddhist tradition, and they don't read or
write in a language that has evolved with the particularities of the Buddhist
religions. American Buddhists, in particular, don't have an idea of
"initiation," "dharma transmission," and "religious community" which are so
important to the Buddhist practitioners in Asia. It makes complete sense that
this type of meditation doesn't work well.

I am not familiar with the Pali or Hindi languages, but, for example, in
Chinese, there are over 20 words that all mean "karma", and the language has
taken on many loanwords and native associations as a result of Buddhist
influence. In the West, this type of transformation was brought forward by
Christianity, not from Buddhism. When you read a Buddhist sutra translated
into English, you get six-syllable Latinate constructions that sound more like
a neuroscience paper than a living religion, such as "contingently-originated
phenomenon", which is actually just two syllables in Chinese. I am sure that
there's even more ingrained Buddhist ideas if you are a native Pali speaker.

~~~
stretchwithme
I've come to believe that community practice of a thing isn't necessarily any
better. For example, Buddhism is the dominant tradition in Myanmar. But that
didn't stop the burning of hundreds of Rohingya villages.

[https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2017/0928/Is-
Rohingya...](https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2017/0928/Is-Rohingya-
crisis-changing-West-s-romanticized-view-of-Buddhism)

------
eludwig
Hilariously strange article...

It starts with the unbelievably blunt (and imo, true): "the self is an
illusion." Then is proceeds to go on about how this illusion can be either
magnified or diminished by doing certain things!

What!? How can something that doesn't exist be manipulated?

I know "I'm" being a bit dense on purpose here, but really!

~~~
throwaway080383
The thing may not exist, but the illusion of it does.

------
pera
I couldn't find any specifics on their control group:

[https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/420273/2/online_supplement.pdf](https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/420273/2/online_supplement.pdf)

Did they practice some other form of physical activity?

------
rgrieselhuber
Orthodox Christianity has a very rich contemplative history. In particular,
understanding concepts like the nous do quite a bit to illuminate our more
modern idea of ego and the false dialectic of big vs. small / null ego.

~~~
aesclepius
Any recommended reading? Thanks!

~~~
rgrieselhuber
There is quite a lot, not what I would consider to be easy reading but
thought-provoking nonetheless:

\- Byzantine Theology is a good overview of many of the concepts that
differentiate the East from the West ([https://www.amazon.com/Byzantine-
Theology-Historical-Trends-...](https://www.amazon.com/Byzantine-Theology-
Historical-Trends-Doctrinal/dp/0823209679/))

\- Divine Essence and Divine Energies (a critical distinction that has been
lost in the West) ([https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Essence-Energies-Ecumenical-
Re...](https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Essence-Energies-Ecumenical-
Reflections/dp/0227173864/))

\- Any of the works by St. Maximus the Confessor

Lots more...

------
jrs95
So if meditation and yoga don't help the average person in this way, perhaps
we need to change the meaning of MAGA to Make Acid Great Again. LSD induced
ego death could be our new national high school graduation ritual.

~~~
dick_sucker2
The early pioneers of LSD believed in ego death and yet had huge egos that
only got bigger with successive doses.

------
jrs95
That's weird, usually people claim the opposite. Perhaps perceiving having
less of an ego is actually a symptom of having a huge ego. I wouldn't know;
I've barely got an ego at all.

~~~
calt
I see what you did there.

Meditation has boosted my ego, in some meanings of the word, and given me a
sense of self worth. It's also taught me that everyone is interconnected and
self is an illusion. Those two things go hands in hand to make me much more
generous and giving than I used to be.... Still no saint though.

I think people lack the language or don't realize the two concepts of self-
worth and non-self are sperate. The word ego just gets thrown around. "Oh yeah
I have a tiny ego but great self esteem." == "I have a strong view of non-self
and a huge ego."

------
rfugger
I used to practice yoga and meditation with a goal of transcending my own ego.
I largely stopped because it felt like I was forcing it, and I felt that
particular kind of self-discipline wasn't the right way for me. This study (if
it has any validity) reinforces that thinking from a different angle. Maybe
yoga and meditation are just outward signs of the natural enlightenment
process, and using them as tools to pursue enlightenment is simply cargo
cultism. Or maybe that's just my ego justifying itself...

------
tsenkov
Seems like meditation (maybe yoga as well) gives you access to control the
Ego. Westerners just want to dial the knob in the opposite direction.

I honestly am more inclined to think that in the world we live in (and the
rules we operate according to), having a way to boost your Ego isn't
necessarily bad. There is no way you can achieve anything significant
(involving many other people), without at least some use for your Ego. Of
course you can "crash the ship" if you don't know when to use it.

------
suneilp
Don't think of dealing with your ego nor should you worry about being right or
wrong when something comes up regarding your ego when meditating. Also, when
meditating, you overcome mental/emotional blockages which naturally makes you
energetic. Don't get attached to conclusions and stay calm after you
experience a mental shift.

------
RileyJames
I’m quite sure yoga classes (more so teachers) that focus on Buddhist
philosophy are few and far between, in the West. The majority are fitness
classes.

It seems like they’ve deliberately drawn an extremely broad conclusion.

It would be very interesting to run this kind of study focusing / assessment
for students of specific teachers, types of yoga or lineages of teaching.

------
burnt1ce
Assuming that they just used breathing meditation (the most popular form of
meditation), then I wouldn't be surprised. It's just one form of meditation to
bring calmness to a busy mind.

Other religions like Buddhism, also have analytical meditation which they use
to minimize/eliminate the ego to obtain nirvana/enlightenment.

------
warent
Is it possible that the ego in this article and the ego that the Buddhists are
talking about are two different things? This may be a miscommunication, using
the same word to point to different ideas. How can we know when the article
never clarifies exactly what it means by ego?

------
themagician
You can see the egos as big as the sun in certain areas. Go down to Miami
Beach and yoga is a competitive sport. It’s so fake and so phony and you’ve
got people spending $200/hr for yoga/meditation sessions and it’s completely
bonkers.

~~~
mehblahwhatevs
What's worse is all the "hipster yoga" classes and movements taking place.

Remember seeing that "Yoga with goats" class? Or "Yoga with kittens" in the
studio.

It's a great example of first-world privilege and "living in the bubble" that
we do here.

~~~
matte_black
I’m not sure what’s wrong with this, why does everything have to be completely
authentic to the original source?

~~~
toasterlovin
I think the person you were responding to was remarking more on the
ridiculousness of it, rather than the inauthenticity.

------
baxtr
I wonder, if this is the next ‘power pose’ BS?

[http://fortune.com/2016/10/02/power-poses-research-
false/](http://fortune.com/2016/10/02/power-poses-research-false/)

------
friendly_chap
This completely misses the point. Perhaps recruiting people from Facebook is
not the best way to find humble people.

A lot of people I know use meditation or even spiritual advancement as a way
to treat their inferiority complex.

After they fail to realize success in other areas of life they hang on to
their egos and find a false sense of superiority in the fact that they are
spiritual ones.

Some of these people are the hardest working Buddhists I know. What they truly
lack however is empathy and and the desire to face themselves.

Wanting to love oneself and other living beings is more important than any
other aspect of the spiritual path. Without that, every teaching is just a
string of empty words.

~~~
blackSnake
There are some on the spiritual path that seek knowledge and awareness. Pure
awareness. They are human yet their karma doesn't involve getting entangled
with their fellow men. Hermits. Loving, hating, its all the same to them
because their focus is elsewhere. Most would say they are selfish and lack
empathy but they are just different kind of seeker.

------
reificator
I don't want to be "that guy" but... why is this news? It's fairly self-
evident in our culture. Just look at the way the people who practice these are
portrayed in media. _(at least when it 's set in the west in modern times)_

The study itself is valuable, I'm not against testing things that are
"obvious". Just that when the culturally accepted result is upheld by the
study, it's not generally worth reporting on IMO.

~~~
mettamage
It is worth reporting in a scientific article though. Null-results, everything
should be reported and accessible somewhere. The reproducibility crisis should
be stopped, otherwise I can just claim whatever I want and be as wrong as the
social scientists who have trouble finding any verifiable fact.

Regarding to what is news worthy and therefore publishable on news: whatever
makes money, I wouldn't know what makes money in that regard.

~~~
reificator
> _It is worth reporting in a scientific article though. Null-results,
> everything should be reported and accessible somewhere._

Which is exactly what I said in my original post.

> _Regarding to what is news worthy and therefore publishable on news:
> whatever makes money_

I'm usually pretty cynical but I do at least wish we could hold news to a
higher standard than "Make money".

~~~
mettamage
Ah, my apologies, didn't catch that.

Regarding the news: I hope so too. I suppose I betrayed my cynicism.

------
trudatas
Read the details of the study. They made up the meditation styles to trick
participants. Horseshit bias.

------
b6
There are definitely traps along the meditative path, like thinking that
rapture is the point, or thinking highly of yourself, e.g., "wow, I'm a better
meditator than other people". But it's a bit like worrying about
overexercising, not a problem most people are likely to face.

So we have this silly study showing whatever, and then we have 2500 years of
brilliant monks like Ajaan Chah, Thich Nhat Hanh, on and on and on, telling us
it's exactly like the Buddha said, and that we should meditate and see it for
ourselves. I think I'll go with the larger study.

------
XalvinX
There is only one way to study meditation. Do it.

There is no Buddhist Pope that makes proclamations that you just have to
accept on faith. There is no Buddhist scientific organization holding press
conferences on their latest discoveries. It is all about practice and
experience, the rest (and I know there is a lot of it..) is just fluff and
colorful decoration.

Ego is Small Mind, noisy mind, chattering monkey mind. When you quiet that
through mediation you start to experience Big Mind, the source of intuition
and wisdom and a clearer look at reality. But, as the ancient books say, it is
nothing special.

