
Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan - irfan
https://plus.google.com/u/0/104233435224873922474/posts/4UcNomnhipX
======
omarqureshi
British Pakistani here.

Schmidt has not seen Pakistan for what it really is - a cesspool of corruption
and poorly educated people.

Pakistan has two major problems. Primarily, education of the people ... what
good is a democracy if people cannot understand the democratic system - nor
see past the public visage and look deeply into what kind of person a
political candidate is.

This poor education leads Zardari (a corrupt politician who has ties to the
murder of Murtaza Bhutto) only coming to power due to a three way effect of a
sympathy vote (assassination of Benazir Bhutto), bribery and threats to people
who work on his land (he is one of the largest land owners in Sindh). Nowhere
else in the world would a criminal become the president of a nation.

The secondary problem is ALL the corruption from the upper levels of politics,
to the police itself. If you're caught speeding in Pakistan, simply apologise
to the officer who has caught you and slip him a few hundred rupees.

Want to get out of the airport faster by not having your bags security
checked? Slip 500 rupees to the security officer.

Are you the prime minister of the country being investigated for money
laundering? Make the lives hell for judges and lawyers.

Fix the education problem and everything else will fall into place and this is
something that I truly hope that PTI will do, should they on the unlikely
chance get into power (I say unlikely as I envisage that the PPP will somehow
manage to bullshit their way through another election).

~~~
nakkiel
Corruption is everywhere. Pakistan is hardly different. Even in the UK you'll
find corrupt politicians or entrepreneurs. Perhaps they are less so (or simply
better at it?) but this simply won't stop any time soon.

Education is an issue but only in the long term. Assuming Pakistan managed to
overcome several of its other problems, uneducated would become Pakistan's
most important resource. Uneducated people are what make industrialisation
possible. They make low wages possible and so the country becomes interesting
as a manufacturing base (as Thailand has become for example).

With more economic activity will come education and then the country will have
to find an alternative economic source.

More education will also affect corruption as educated people tend to be less
willing to put up with it.

This is of course overly simple but for a big picture, it does hold some
truth.

I believe that focusing prematurely on education, is actually counter-
productive as the tissue of companies in need of educated workers simply is
not there and makes low wages more difficult.

The West is also a good example of other issues with educated people.
Countries full of educated people are more difficult to manage. For example
France is badly in need of deep reforms but they will simply never happen
because French would go on strike as a result of such reforms.

For what it's worth, in France you'd get a 90 Euros fine for speeding on a
standard road. I'm not arguing whether it's good or bad, the answer simply
isn't black or white. I do know though that 90 Euros is not sustainable for
many a family in France while a 250 Bath (in Thailand) is fairly cheap for
car-owners.

~~~
dageshi
I think you have to understand that corruption in the UK and in Pakistan are
likely two different things. In the UK corruption, any corruption is about
Greed. In Pakistan and similar countries not _all_ corruption is about greed,
it's about an alternative system of taxation.

Your average police officer, or fireman or customs official probably gets paid
a tiny amount of money per month maybe $30-$50. But as an official of the
government they have the opportunity to levy "additional taxes" during their
day to day life. That's why often you'll find such countries have thousands of
official regulations which on the face of it make no sense, how can anyone get
anything done legally with all these regulations? The answer of course is that
these regulations merely exist to create opportunities for the relevant
officials to "collect taxes". You pay the official directly, you don't need to
comply.

And their superiors know, their superiors get a cut of every bribe, it feeds
up the chain of command within the relevant organisations. The officers on the
beat or the fire department official who checks building fire regulations
collects the "taxes" for himself and his superior.

So when you talk about stopping corruption in these countries you've got to
replace this system of "taxation" with a real one that works. But that's
easier said than done because the real corruption (fuelled by greed) also
exists here and no one in their right mind is going to pay serious tax money
to their government because it will disappear never to be seen again.

I can't claim that I know what the solution is to that, I thought I'd just put
a different perspective on it.

~~~
white_devil
> In Pakistan and similar countries not all corruption is about greed, it's
> about an alternative system of taxation.

What exactly is this "auxiliary taxation" about besides greed? It's not like
the money they collect is used for the greater good.

~~~
slurgfest
It's not like the money which forms part of a policeman's salary is used for
the greater good either.

Except insofar as it compensates the policeman for doing his job, and insofar
as that job is for the greater good. (Although, I don't think everyone agrees
that the moral justification for everything is a unitary 'greater good').

The problem isn't the policeman taking money, the problem is that he is taking
money under the table and it is likely compromising how well and how fairly he
does his job.

When bribery becomes so regular and highly routine, to the point where you can
be seen to justly complain about the bribe being raised, the difference from a
normal fee is entirely one of top-down regulation. Which is good and helpful
for management. But the distinction is about the looseness of supervision and
control (and the bad results that leads to) rather than the basic interaction.

~~~
white_devil
> It's not like the money which forms part of a policeman's salary is used for
> the greater good either.

 _All_ of the money that goes into a policeman's salary is used for the
greater good. That's what having a part of our earnings confiscated buys us.
What the policeman does in his official capacity is another mater.

> The problem isn't the policeman taking money, the problem is that he is
> taking money under the table and it is likely compromising how well and how
> fairly he does his job.

No matter what his salary is, greed may lead him to take bribes regardless.

> When bribery becomes so regular and highly routine, to the point where you
> can be seen to justly complain about the bribe being raised

Well, it sounds like you're thinking from the point of view of that "auxiliary
taxation" mentioned above. I still can't see how a group of people collecting
bribes in some kind of hierarchy is not all about greed. I'm pretty sure the
bribes don't actually improve the job performance of those policemen or the
other looters up the chain.

------
asto
Eric Shmidt's opinion on this topic has no value. People like him are treated
_way_ better than ordinary people in Muslim countries. People like me can be
arrested/executed for the silliest of reasons [1][2][3]

I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite
alright. What works for them needn't work for me.

[1][http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-...](http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-
blasphemy-petition_1_asia-bibi-blasphemy-salman-taseer?_s=PM:ASIA)
[2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Kashgari>
[3][http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-must-halt-execution-
web-...](http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-must-halt-execution-web-
programmer-2012-01-19)

~~~
iuguy
> I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's
> quite alright.

Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even
happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine.
Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim'
places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are
fine.

The problems in Pakistan are not about whether or not it's a "muslim country"
as you put it. The problems are based on what is societally and culturally
acceptable which is a progression of traditions and norms, not Islam itself.

Let me put it this way, try swapping Muslim out for Jewish and re-read that
statement, or Muslim for Christian. How do you think a muslim Pakistani would
feel dressed normally for Pakistan in the bible belt of the US? Does that mean
that they shouldn't go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans?

I'd hoped to see more discussion on the specifics in HN rather than sweeping
statements with an undercurrent of racism.

~~~
asto
In turkey, you will be thrown in jail simply for dissent -
[http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-
journali...](http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journalists-
arrest-is-a-real-danger)

In Morocco, a court ordered a teenager to marry her rapist. She killed
herself. [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-
teenage...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenager-
death-women-rights)

The Dubai Sheikh torture clip is infamous now. Amazing how you can torture a
guy and not go to jail if you're a Sheikh. We know about this specific
incident because of the video leakk. Who knows what else goes on there.
<http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7402099>

Oman will throw you in jail for dissent with the govt
[http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/oman/oman-crackdown-on-
dissent...](http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/oman/oman-crackdown-on-dissent-nets-
poet-and-blogger-1.1034411)

A lot of these emirates are guilty of encouraging human trafficking to allow
supply of cheap labour. When your rich american/european visits the UAE, he
doesn't see the human rights violations going on right around him - partly
because his environment is sanitized of ill treatment of labour from poorer
countries and partly because he chooses not to see. Should we all just shut up
about the UAE's behaviour then?

The reason turkey, morocco etc are better behaved are because they're
dependent on EU for economic support. I didn't mean to go muslim bashing with
my comment but as you can see, they're easy to classify in this fashion. I
wouldn't go to China either for the same reason I wouldn't go to a muslim
country.

~~~
iuguy
I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite
shocked.

Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the
world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying
the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising
common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things
you talk about occur around the world and aren't just limited to states with a
majority muslim population.

> The reason turkey, morocco etc are better behaved are because they're
> dependent on EU for economic support.

It's clear you've never been to Turkey. Turkey's outpaced the EU for economic
growth for years and effectively dodged an economic bullet by not joining the
EU. It may benefit by not being in the Euro, but loses out on tariffs and
taxes. If you walk around Levent in Istanbul you'll see the real money's
coming from China, Russia and the Middle East, not Europe.

~~~
kika
Please stop propaganda. There's no jail in France for the hidjab (or what this
scarf is). It's a 150 euro fine. Not for wearing the hidjab, but for covering
the face in public. Real jail time or corporal punishment is a different
story, don't you agree? Let's say I had a few beers and took a leak on the
street. Is there a difference between a few hundred bucks fine and having my
weapon of crime chopped off?

There's something in his position worth defending. And I guess that the
difference is in the age. Islam is younger than Christianity, they're a few
hundred years behind. Remember what Christians were doing 600 years ago?
Inquisition, Crusades, etc. But this is just my theory.

~~~
kleim
"Remember what Christians were doing 600 years ago? Inquisition, Crusades,
etc" Yeah Christians did it 600 YEARS AGO. But islamic countries do that kind
of horror nowadays and AFAIK they did not developed in a bubble, isolated from
the other countries. So it is perfectly relevant to judge them. Human Rights
are universal, not a simple "cultural standard".

~~~
slurgfest
Where are Muslim Crusades currently being waged? Remember that the Crusades
were a huge undertaking involving many entire nations engaged in full scale
war.

~~~
kika
To run a crusade you need a target. All obvious targets for Muslim crusades
either have the nukes, or rumored to have nukes or have friends with nukes.
Bummer.

~~~
slurgfest
Even if that were not the case, and even if it were actually true that the
majority of today's Muslims were in support of such adventures (let alone
willing to die in the numbers that European crusaders did) ... Muslim
countries are flat out too poor to dedicate the same percentage of GDP that
European countries did to the Crusade. The ones which are less poor are making
all their money by working with the West anyway.

~~~
kika
Agree in general, but I believe that if there was no (rumor of) nuke in
Israel, they would have tried (again).

Another "positive" moment within the Muslim world itself is that Muslims are
still happily killing each other (like Christians were doing a few centuries
ago). Eventually they will stop doing this.

------
pknerd
A Pakistani from Karachi here.

What actually amaze me most of the time that people consider Pakistan similar
to Afghanistan and they believe that Pakistan == FATA region. The reality is
that Fata is not even 5% of Pakistan and the region is disturbed because of
invasion in Afghanistan and closed cultural ties between FATA and Afghans.

Totally agree about Mobile penetration in Pakistan. It is something similar to
Africa. The difference that in Pakistan there is no wider acceptance of mobile
usage other than sending useless SMS and Spams. There are only 2 companies
offer mobile payments and that are also not TRUE mobile payments.

The technology is quite enjoyed by Pakistanis both in rural and urban areas.
The biggest obstacle is corruption and politicians itself who don't let people
to get educated.

~~~
planetguy
Fifteen years ago I thought of Pakistan as "that other India". Now I think of
it as "that other Afghanistan". This doesn't seem like progress.

------
zack12
I live in Lahore which is one of the three major cities in Pakistan. Trust me,
what he says about electricity is absolutely true. Right now I am sitting
which out any electricity. My internet modem is on UPS so that I can have
uninterrupted internet. As far as computer is concerned, I have to religiously
charge my laptop whenever there is electricity so that I can use the laptop
during the load shedding times.. Since its so hot( I am sweating right now no
fan, and the temperature is 50 C), my laptop heats up which usually causes my
graphics card to burn out. Just bought my third laptop in last 12 months.
Desktop computers are out of question.

~~~
hollerith
50 deg C == 122 deg F.

------
raheemm
I spent a few days in Pakistan last week, specifically in Karachi. I found the
people to be very polite, the city vibrant and modern (much more so than I
expected), and in spite of their enormous challenges, there are pockets of
growth and development (telecom, islamic banking). Like much of South Asia,
these developments are in spite of the government.

There also seemed to be an air of optimism about the prospects of Imran Khan
becoming the next Prime Minister. I asked my taxi driver what might cause
Imran Khan to lose and he mentioned if America does not want him, he wont
become PM.

Here is an interview of Imran Khan with Julian Assange -
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WacS98ATtIM>

------
jorahmormont
The following article by a Pakistani-Indian is a good read and explains the
fundamental problem that Pakistan faces.
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230491110457644...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304911104576445862242908294.html)

------
draggnar
Vice magazine recently went to karachi and made a fascinating documentary. The
situation on the ground is pretty bad.

[http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-vice-
guide-...](http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-vice-guide-to-
karachi-part-1)

------
kamakazizuru
great read - but in the process of painting a peachy picture for the future,
he glosses over a huge core problem that pakistan has. The fact that a
significant part of its identity is based on being the anti-india.

~~~
alan_cx
Historically, isn't the USA kinda based on being anti-British? Wasn't there
some war thingy where you chaps booted us out? We get on now, don't we?

~~~
conover
The colonies were an ocean away during the age of sail. I imagine things would
have turned out quite differently if Britain was on our southern border.

~~~
kibwen
You don't even need to imagine!

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812>

Though I'm not sure whether this supports or refutes your point... because we
_did_ start to get along pretty swimmingly once it was all over.

------
ern
_the rest of Pakistan for the average citizen, much larger than the first and
which is reasonably misunderstood and relatively safe;_

I'm not an expert on the topic, but if Karachi[1] can be regarded as
"relatively safe", the Pakistan has bigger problems that I imagined.

[1] [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/30/karachi-
ethnic-f...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/30/karachi-ethnic-
faultlines-exposed-killings)

------
pknerd
Interview of Imran Khan, the budding politicians and ex successful cricket
Captain, you will learn more and have more authentic view about Pakistan.

Julian Assange interviews Imran Assange

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an-AJIqN_r4>

------
DanielBMarkham
_The emergent middle class of Pakistan won’t settle for a corrupt system with
constant terrorism and will push for reforms in a burgeoning democracy. Here’s
to the new civil society of Pakistan, who will use connectivity, information
and the Internet, to drive a peaceful revolution that brings Pakistan up to
its true potential._

Gosh, I sure hope so. Maybe Eric should talk to some of the Green Revolution
folks.

I don't mean to be cynical, but the desires of the emerging middle class are
going to have to compete -- perhaps with great violence -- with the desires of
the established interests. That's what happens when political systems aren't
able to auto-correct and run for many decades.

The question I would have like Schmidt to answer is this: _is Pakistan a
country_? That is, does it control its borders, is the government the sole
user of force against the population, is there a place where international
partners can go and ask for and receive redress when wronged by citizens of
Pakistan?

I don't think it is. Or if it is, it's a close call.

Having said all of that negative stuff, I wish the people living in Pakistan
the best. An emerging middle class, along with a decent education and
unfettered internet access, is their best shot at a happier tomorrow.

~~~
srean
I think you raise valid points. One difficult problem is (and I have faced
this myself for the longest time and it is evident the Eric Schmidt is
suffering from it as well) is that one tends to appraise a country along a
line that mirrors one's own priors of what a country typically is. Such priors
usually mirrors ones own country.

Pakistan's position is really very unique and it takes time to understand it.
The usual labels take very different meanings. For instance what the western
world calls "middle class" almost doesn't exist in the form that they expect
it to. Even if it did, it has nowhere the clout or the purchase. The country
is deeply, and I do mean deeply, feudal. "Middle class" either means of a
feudal family decent or of military lineage. Feudal land holdings and military
are the two, and pretty much the only two centers that drives the economy and
are locked in their desire to keep their privileges intact. If you are
interested in this topic, do take time to find out what percentage these two
forces account for.

And then you have the significantly large radicalized population. And even
here it is very different. You would think radical groups are fringe groups,
but not quite so in Pakistan and this has been cultivated by deliberate intent
over several decades. The identity of a victimized population that the world
has been unfair to because of their religion gets ingrained very early in the
education system. Such a belief of persecution is rampant even in the
mainstream, sometimes given a modicum of a veneer. Its difficult to catch
these undertones unless one is familiar with the language and reads the same
newspapers that the Pakistanis read, or watch the same TV shows that
Pakistanis watch. Find out about Zaid Hamid and then consider the fact that
there he is as main stream as vanila ice-cream.

Next word: army. It is very different from an army one would expect to see. It
is a cross between a rich political party that has an unprecedentedly
militarized cadre and a mafia house doling out favors (in the form of jobs and
other privileges) to keep the population in control. On one hand it controls
what you would call the civic life and on the other it also controls albeit at
a very decentralized way the different Jihadi outfits which are again smaller
mafia houses as entrenched in an economic endeavor as much as a religious one.
Its common to dismiss these radical outfits as religious whackos, but you
would get a better understanding if you also follow the money and see how the
business side of it works.

Entwined with the feudal system is a deep ethnic undercurrent and you would
often find the different parties locked in a perverse game theoretic
equilibrium trying to gain control. All this goes unreported in the western
media, or well in their own country as well. To see what I am talking about,
dig up statistics of violence related civilian (police personnel included)
deaths in Karachi in the past year, and Karachi is the most liberal city
there.

The funniest comment by Eric Schmidt was about freedom of the press. That does
not exist. Unless you have some seat of power guarding your life you cant say
what you want to say at least not while residing in Pakistan.

If you have interest you can follow this sarcastic blog of a faux major
[http://majorlyprofound.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/prospects-
fo...](http://majorlyprofound.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/prospects-for-peace/)
but you have to read between the lines because beneath the sarcasm there lies
a lot of deliberate thought.

------
capex
In terms of startups, Pakistan is being let down by the banking bureaucracy.
Paypal doesn't work in Pakistan, and there is no official explanation of why
it is so. Lacking a mode of easy/ secure online payments, startups are kind of
dead in Pakistan at this time.

~~~
slurgfest
If you have a risky or nonexistent payment infrastructure, poor ability to
enforce contracts, high inflation, high interest rates, and high risk due to
corruption then it is going to be tough. Unfortunately these kinds of
conditions cover most of the populated world.

------
siculars
The only thing that will save Pakistan is a complete disassociation with
radical Islam. That, more education and less corruption. Godspeed.

------
nodata
Is this really Eric Schmidt? How do we verify a Plus account?

~~~
carbon8
The "check" icon next to the name on the profile page:
<http://i.imgur.com/Jzg8Y.png>

