
Rome in Ruins - scott_s
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/24/travel/rome-pollution-trash.html
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lordnacho
I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of
those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're
driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official
building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the
Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins.

Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formula One track
you're on. There's no weeds sticking up. There's no plants growing over the
signs or the barriers on the side. Signs themselves are pristine, like they
were made today. No debris such as tyres or hubcaps on the roadway, though you
do cross a piece of trash every now and again. You also come across the
maintenance vehicles that keep all these things clean.

Italy: Not like that.

Most of Europe is like this. Germany is pretty good. France is a bit less
decayed than Italy. Denmark is better but still weeds, trash, and potholes. UK
is like Denmark, not perfect but you don't get that sense of failed state that
you get crossing into Italy.

One social/political thing that always comes to mind is they could hire people
to clean things up. They wouldn't be highly paid, but people on low income
getting paid could be good for the economy. Italy and France also have
reasonably high unemployment rates, so there must be some people who would be
willing? And they'd be providing a public good: everyone wants to live in a
clean country.

~~~
fiblye
I've heard a lot from other Americans about thinking France was a dump when
they visited, and I really thought they were exaggerating. When I visited, I
was actually pretty surprised to find it just how they described it. I wasn't
sure if it was just that it was different, but I guess it's nice knowing at
least some Europeans seem to agree.

What really shocked me was how often I've heard terrible things about China
from Euros/Americans, but going and seeing brand new, pristine streets, no
litter in the rivers and streams, and not even cigarette butts on the
sidewalks. I know dirty areas exist, because they do everywhere and China is
the world's manufacturing capital, but they're doing great with their urban
areas these days. But most Western cities make me depressed these days. You
can see what they used to be, but they feel like they're wasting away.

~~~
i_am_nomad
I was in Paris over the summer; it wasn’t a “dump” by any means, though there
was a layer of grime to everything that many cities have. Also the amount of
smoking was shocking and to me, very unpleasant.

On the other hand, Normandy and it’s various towns and villages were so
heartbreakingly beautiful, quaint, and filled with joy, I could barely believe
that such a place could exist on Earth.

~~~
redisman
Sounds really strange coming from Americans. Maybe they all lived in some
over-priced suburbs? Any major US city is definitely as grimy as Paris

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phyller
This is how I see New York City. Living there I was so used to it, then I went
to San Diego for a wedding, couldn't believe my eyes when I saw people walking
around outside barefoot. Because everything was clean, why not? Everyone else
wore sandals, I was the only one wearing shoes.

I came back to NYC early Monday morning, rode the subway from JFK and had to
walk through Times Square to get where I was going. Times Square on a Monday
morning, cleaning up from the weekend, is so gross. Of course trash, also
urine and vomit and food smashed into everything, broken glass, etc. Of course
all that and more in the subway, and rats here and there. The wind tunnels
that are the streets blowing the detritus in your eyes, basically aerosolized
rat feces. Stepping over little rivers of dog, or even human, urine was
routine anywhere. And this is Manhattan, one of the greatest concentrations of
wealth anywhere.

~~~
pram
Yeah I was in NYC for the first time this year and I was impressed by the
filth and general dilapidation. The subways are exceptionally dirty, and the
stations/trains along the A line seemed to be in advanced decay.

It’s nowhere as bad as Chicago though ;P

~~~
aristophenes
It’s not that they don’t pay people to clean up. I used to get on the A at the
very first stop. The train would be parked until it was time to go, and there
was a whole crew of cleaners. The cleaning went like this, the workers would
start in each separate car, when the doors opened they’d walk in, then walk
towards each other trailing their mops, sit down and start talking. That was
the cleaning that the MTA was paying for.

This used to drive me nuts. Then one day a high level supervisor came on the
train, and a group of the cleaners were in the car I was sitting in. He sat
down with them and proceeded to explain how if they went to this certain
building and filled out some paperwork they would start getting paid $40 per
hour. He was going around, not inspecting work, but on behalf of their union,
explaining how to work the system.

The MTA is the worst, and taught me the dangers of some unions. I never saw an
MTA employee working. Once I saw 4 MTA employees standing around as two
contractors changed light bulbs. NYC has a heavily utilized subway system, and
it definitely isn’t free. But they can’t even pay the expenses for maintenance
let alone improvements without tax payer support because of these leeches.
This is why NYC and elsewhere are like this, people not doing what they are
paid to do.

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mlevental
r/thatHappened why do people post stuff like this? completely unverifiable and
highly exaggerated at best complete fabrication at worst

~~~
aristophenes
Because I lived in NYC and rode the subway multiple times every day all over
the place and this is what I experienced. Lots of data points collected that
were all consistent. Of course you don't have to believe me. I provided a
couple short examples that demonstrated what I was talking about. I've seen
plenty of other things but they are more difficult to explain. If you have
routinely used the NYC subway and had a different experience please share,
otherwise just take it as the impression from a fellow HNer.

~~~
mlevental
cool man. i lived in nyc too and rode the A and C all the time never witnessed
anything but white glove service.

>otherwise just take it as the impression from a fellow HNer. on the internet
everyone is a dog

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pionerkotik
I have been in around 20 countries in Europe and Italy was the second-worst
(after Georgia) in terms of rubbish.

The problem is not only with Rome. I have lived for three years in Milan and
it is as dirty. Turin is only marginally better. In fact, on some days the
road from Milan's Bergamo airport to the city was so dirty that it looked
almost as if in a third-world country.

Interestingly, from my experience there was very little dog poo on the
streets. Italians always seemed to painstakingly collect the poo of their pets
and put it into rubbish bins. No such enthusiasm with other types of rubbish.

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cpursley
I'm currently visiting Rome and am shocked by the volume of garbage (and dog
shit) on the street. It's everywhere and quite strange to see juxtaposed with
all the fancy marble. I just don't get it. In comparison, my region in the USA
is very clean. Additionally, I just came from Russia, which has a littering
problem. But even even Russia is a clean paradise compared to the trash heap
that Rome has become...

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briga
It's not just Rome, I saw this in other Italian cities as well. The tourist
areas are well-manicured, naturally, but the outskirts of many Italian cities
are crumbling. Infrastructure is generally outdated and poorly designed, if
not actively falling apart. The Italy of postcards and travel videos is a far
cry from the Italy most Italians live in.

~~~
fyfy18
Spain is in the same situation, although maybe not so pronounced yet. It's a
stark contrast to post-Soviet countries, which are relatively well maintained
and seeing trash dumped is practically unheard of.

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runn1ng
Interesting, I am from Czech Republic, I was in Spain recently and I didn't
feel like that at all. I have been mostly in Andalusia and the cities look
great, Madrid looked fine as well.

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fierarul
Madrid is a fine city but I also was 'lucky' to visit it while there was a
huge demonstration occupying the city centre. Didn't look so well during that
time. I think right before that the garbage men had a strike leaving all the
trash on the streets.

I guess in a way it doesn't take much to make a city look clean (or dirty) but
it takes a lot of work for it to be constantly good looking.

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Lucadg
Last time I was in Rome I had exactly the same impression. I even saw a
discarded air conditioning unit at the feet of an ancient wall and it felt
like I was in some dirty outskirts. I turned the corner and there was the
Colossuem. Some Italian cities are very clean, others are even more dirty. It
really depends and my guess is that after a while locals just stop seeing
this. Clean and dirty is very subjective after all.

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marcoperaza
I’ve thought for a while now that there is a special depravity to things like
littering that makes them worse than, for example, small-time theft.

At least the thief has a rational reason to steal and gains from his crime
roughly what he has taken from another. The litterer by comparison gains so
little but does so much harm.

~~~
abecedarius
I get the impression theft usually pays the thief a lot less than the value of
the loot -- they have to fence it, etc. You could view that as a quibble about
profit-sharing, but OTOH in the bigger picture theft is highly negative-sum
because of the costs around prevention and the thief's extra work in
overcoming it (and other costs). So theft actually is rather like littering in
this way.

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mrunkel
I'm always struck about how many people complain about trash, but seemingly so
few actually do anything about it in their neighborhoods.

While preventing littering is a laudable goal, the solution is achievable by
all of us. Just pick up a few pieces and ay and throw it away. If everyone who
complained about littering did that, the problem would be solved.

Sure, there would still be litterers, but at least the neighborhood would be
clean. I'd posit fewer people would litter if there wasn't already trash
everywhere.

~~~
bobthepanda
This helps to a point, but people only have so much time and can only do so
much if the system is systemically broken as it is in Rome, where they are
simply not able to process trash even when placed in dumpsters. Plus if the
trash contains lots of things like broken glass or sharps, it might be
dangerous for untrained citizens to dispose of trash on the street.

America hasn’t really made a dent in domestic poverty even though charitable
donations are the highest in the world per capita. At some point you do need
an organized government response to problems.

~~~
Frondo
American charitable donations are only so high because church tithing counts.

When's the last time you saw a church organize a street cleaning party,
though? (or opening its tax-free building to the homeless?)

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hydrox24
In the USA churches provide a substantial portion of the shelter available to
the homeless.[0] Church tithing is often charitable, and churches often open
their doors to provide community services.

Churches may not regularly organise street cleaning parties, but I don't think
that they consider litter to be one of society's great sins either.

[0]:
[https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=s...](https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=story&story=176953)

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yawaworhtttt
Pretty much all large cities are dirty. People like to stereotypically dunk on
Paris but to be frank it's got nothing on London or New York. There's just
something inherently filthy that comes with large concentrations of human
beings. The only exception I've seen first hand is Tokyo. I guess if you're
not used to large cities it must be shocking.

"There was a certain something about the air in [Ankh-Morpork]. You got the
feeling that it was air that had seen life. You couldn't help noting with
every breath that thousands of other people were very close to you and nearly
all of them had armpits." -Terry Pratchett, _Mort_

~~~
redisman
HN's beloved Bay Area (esp SF) is by far the dirtiest city I've been to and
I've been to a lot of cities.

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primitur
The physical conditions of the city are a manifestation of the destitution of
its people. I've lived in many cities around the world that were utterly poor
- yet, the people kept the streets clean. Things were orderly and maintained.

I firmly believe its a matter of the principles of the society. In a
progressive, wealthy nation such as exist in Europe, recycling is a thing.
People don't want to live in trash - they use it for energy, or recycle it as
much as possible. Those who sort trash, promote a cleaner eco-system .. those
who eschew the waste anyway, as 'responsible consumers', also help a great
deal. These are cultural phenomenon you don't find widely promoted in various
civic contingencies around the western world; corruption persists in
environments which support its ill-gained prosperity.

In Europe, at least, we can find as many good as bad examples of this. I think
its clear, the same cannot be said of other of the western nations ..

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eecc
Process. There’s so much process and bureaucracy in Italy that you can’t
singlehandedly do anything. You need politicians - or rather, well connected
busybodies - to call in their clientele, a couple private phone calls and
“trovare la Quadra” which is an euphemism for finding a solution that appeases
all interests.

I don’t know, maybe it’s a reaction to authoritarian fascism, or just
something intrinsic to us (read several accounts on how it was all just the
same during Fascism) but it’s just too difficult to manover such a large ship
with small engines and little fuel.

It’s not just Rome, it’s everything around her that makes it so.

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amelius
In Singapore they have a zero tolerance policy for littering.

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maliker
The blog mentioned in the article (romafaschifo.com) is pretty readable via
google translate. I noticed the vast majority of the articles are about
political corruption and failure and not garbage. Compared to those issue, and
speaking here as a Washington DC resident that is watching a similar kind of
political decay, the trash is kind of charming.

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TheLuddite
Well, they have a mayor outside of the system that's draining the swamp for
the last few years...you get what you vote for.

~~~
lbeltrame
Although not all faults can be attributed to the current mayor, the current
one is IMO the worst the city could have: elected because she was "honest" and
green (as in inexperienced).

It turns out that real or perceived morality without any semblance of skill is
not enough to handle a city, even more so a large city like Rome.

~~~
Udik
As an aside, these people aren't really "honest". They're just the kind of
people who, in front of difficult problems and complicated situations, do the
exact opposite of assuming good faith: in a textbook case of Dunning-Kruger
effect, they think that things are easy to fix and _therefore_ those who
haven't fixed them before must have been dishonest.

In fact in their cluelesness and will to always point elsewhere for the source
of the problems, they're the same as those who preceded them, just worse.

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dathinab
I had been in room recently on a "business" trip. While I haven't noticed the
trash that much (1) what I noticed most was that literally every walk way was
broken and had holes in it.

(1): I might have seen dirty streets to often/frequent to take much note of
it.

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caymanjim
This article is seriously lacking in photo evidence. Aside from the headline
image, and one of dumpsters, none of the photos contain any trash or graffiti.

~~~
drugme
That's because its main point is... more than a bit overdrawn.

Yes, there's an obvious trash problem in certain areas (especially near
Central Termini) and in certain parks. Which can be a bit eye-popping if the
standard you're comparing to is on the order of, say, Switzerland.

But by and large it's just not that huge of a problem in most areas - and at
the end of the day, it's still a fantastically beautiful city. Its main
problems are: (1) lack of first-class transportation system (2) tourists (3)
of course, Italian politics.

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drugme
Rome in "ruins" is still way more beautiful than 90% of the larger
metropolises out there.

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sloanedavids
This description of Rome is how I see San Francisco. Formerly such a beautiful
city, now all I see is garbage.

Recently my grandparents, who had never been outside of Germany before,
visited me in San Francisco. As we left SFO by car and drove into the city,
they eagerly took in the new sights. Everything they saw was new to them.
After a long period of silence, they asked me, with a certain level of
disbelief in their voice, “Why is there so much garbage on the streets in
America?” I was stumped. Later, recounting their experience, they told me,
“Driving into San Francisco felt like entering a land fill.” I will never
forget those words.

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danans
What they perhaps didn't see is that the US has a higher rate of personal car
ownership. People don't like to walk over garbage, but they don't mind driving
over it to an extent. The areas with trash are the ones where people of means
drive and the walkers are mostly poor, like freeway underpasses.

~~~
adrianN
You're right that freeway underpasses are particularly egregious but I found
almost of SF to be pretty dirty compared to German (or Japanese!) standards.
The incredible number of homeless people is also really shocking for visitors.

