
Ask HN: How do you guys develop mental toughness? - theredking
I recently got done reading David Goggins book Can&#x27;t Hurt Me where he advocates being uncomfortable as one of the key factors in developing mental toughness but his book was rather focused on how to do this via physical means, what are some tactics you guys use to develop intellectual mental toughness?
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MediumD
Practicing MMA (but any single art like Boxing, Wrestling, Muy Thai, etc would
work) has definitely boosted my mental toughness. Once you step into a ring
with someone who is trying to attack you, and come out okay, you realize you
can handle pretty much anything.

Even if you don't spar, simply motivating yourself to go to practice can be
tough. If you can walk into a room knowing you're going to be pinned and
choked, you can walk into an interview/negotiation/meeting/date no problem.

~~~
fluffet
I agree with this 100%. Though I only do grappling and not any striking (BJJ
and Submission Wrestling).

When I did my first competition, locking eyes with my opponent knowing he will
do everything he can do to choke me, break my joints and knowing I voluntarily
put myself there, it changed me :)

I especially like how you frame your last sentence. Since martial arts can
sometimes be uncomfortable physically, like you I have noticed is that things
that used to be uncomfortable are not as uncomfortable as being pinned down by
someone much larger than you. I consciously remind myself of this if I ever
feel nervous about something, and it works almost every time.

I've also read the book by Goggins (loved it) and martial arts really build up
your "cookie jar".

~~~
dtujmer
"Once you've wrestled, everything else in life is easy."

The entire experience, from the first days when I got triangled by girls half
my size (choking my ego as much as choking my body), to competition days, with
pressure passers and crazy leglock guys... It absolutely changed me - for the
better.

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i_dont_know_
I'll give you the same advice everyone else is, but word it slightly
differently, because thinking this way really helped me: Be OK in your own
vulnerability.

'Toughness' implies some sort of everything-proof shield that you expose to
different stimulus to gain 'immunity' from it. I've seen advice that follows
this line of thought: eg you quit bathing for a week and become 'immune' to
some specific social judgements, you go to some extreme sport to be 'immune'
from the fear associated with it, etc.

The problem with the above is it starts feeding into this weird 'detached,
tough guy' persona that cracks as soon as you realize something has gotten to
you. You think "oh no, this thing isn't one of the many things I'm immune
from!" and will try to counter it with some sort of extreme, tough-guy
exposure. Until the next thing gets to you. Etc.

Rather than doing that, you should realize what creates the toughness in the
first place: it's being vulnerable (physically, emotionally, intellectually,
etc.) and realizing it's an OK state to be in. Even if you're in a vulnerable
state, you've "got it", you'll make it out of it, it's not the end of the
world, etc.

Now, you can practice this by putting yourself into vulnerable states and
showing yourself that you survive them (but you have to remember to let
yourself generalize so you don't get stuck in the 'tough guy' mentality I
described above) OR you can explore the concept of vulnerability in general
and learn to be OK with it. I recommend the latter :)

To that end, I really liked "the gifts of imperfection".

~~~
mcv
I think this is the best advice.

I did not go this route; I developed my own form of mental toughness. I used
to be insecure as a kid, and some other kids picked on me, and eventually I
learned to not care what other people thought. Especially if their opinion
leads them to be negative about vulnerable people, it's their opinion that
sucks, not the vulnerable people. So ignore that stupid opinion.

This has worked very well for me, but at the same time, I worry if I'm not too
detached from other people, from their emotions, and from my own. My empathy
exists mostly on an intellectual level, and not really an emotional level.

So it works, but now that I read your comment, I think it may not be the best
outcome. Embracing vulnerability, your own and that of others, sounds like a
better idea.

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anotheryou
Go meta. for love, health and existential fears it won't necessarily help, but
everything else can't be _that_ important.

trying to take a step back is helpful to find solutions and underlying
problems anyways.

for "interpersonal hardening" it helps to understand why others act the way
they do (for negative behavior it's usually fear once you dig deep enough)

for myself I approach it slightly different: I don't fight my feelings, even
if it needs secretly shedding a tear at home. only after having dealt with the
emotions I can again take a step back, analyse causes and consider actions.

and lastly: find someone to talk to. this could even be an anonymous internet
friend, if you are not comfortable sharing things with someone close by. they
can assure you you are not alone and automatically have a healthy outside
perspective.

edit: and I actively avoid unnecessary social stress (toxic people, unhealthy
hierarchies or simply the social pressure in some sorts of group work if not
worth the pain (playing in a lovely band: yes! half assing a shared side
project you are not really on to: no!))

------
err4nt
It's not about what you can resist, it's about what you have the capacity to
endure.

One tactic that helps me through the tough bits are to think of a time that's
been harder/more painful/tougher and remind myself: "I've already been through
worse before, and from this point forward it will only get better"

Another thing I do to try to support myself is to switch what I'm doing.
Sometimes we get stuck in a rut like a car spinning our wheels in the mud -
spending a lot of energy but not making and progress. Maybe it's time to step
out of the car and put some branches down, or take a different tactic. If you
ever feel like you're just spinning your wheels and not getting anywhere,
switch up your approach! Even if progress is slow, your energy isn't wasted
and you don't sit there an anguish waiting for _something_ (anything) to
happen to save you from it.

Another thing you can do to get a thicker skin (toward what others say) is to
hop on IRC, or Twitter, or Facebook, or Slack, or Discord, or wherever people
go to be snippy and nasty to each other. It won't be long before some trolls
or malicious actors come along and try to get under your skin. Don't let them.
Every time it happens it's easier to do!

------
vitomd
Learn Stoicism.

My favorite classic is Enchiridion by Epictetus and Letters from a Stoic by
Seneca. For a more modern approach: The Antidote: Happiness for People Who
Can't Stand Positive Thinking by Burkman

PD:I compiled a list of quotes from the best books
[http://arandomquote.com/categories/stoic/](http://arandomquote.com/categories/stoic/)

~~~
srik
Meditations by Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius is a must read as well. Another
addition to your modern approach recommendation of the stoicism theme is Ryan
Holiday's Ego is the Enemy.

PS - There's a really captivating lecture on stoicism in the context of the
life of Marcus Aurelius
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5897dMWJiSM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5897dMWJiSM)

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whack
Some ways of putting psychological stress on yourself:

\- Public speaking

\- Taking on leadership roles

\- Do things that are counter to your personality. Eg, if you're shy, force
yourself to talk to strangers on the street

\- Put yourself in situations where you will probably face rejection

\- Do things that will make you stick out. Eg: showing up at work one day in a
suit when everyone else is wearing t-shirts. Or vice-versa

\- Take a flight to a random foreign country where you don't know the local
language, and where most people don't know English. No hotel reservations in
advance, no laptop, no smartphone, minimal budget. Figure out how to survive,
have fun, and visit the city's major landmarks over the following 5 days.
Bonus points if it's a developing country

Not that I'm particularly recommending all of the above. But they will
certainly put you in an psychologically "uncomfortable" spot and help expand
your comfort zone.

~~~
cperciva
_\- Take a flight to a random foreign country where you don 't know the local
language, and where most people don't know English. No hotel reservations in
advance, no laptop, no smartphone, minimal budget. Figure out how to survive
and visit the city's major landmarks over the following 5 days. Bonus points
if it's a developing country_

This could result in you being more than just _psychologically_ uncomfortable.
Tourists are, broadly speaking, expected to have hotel rooms booked; showing
up at immigration without any advance plans is a good way to be denied entry
to some countries. (Yes, even countries you don't need a visa to visit: Border
officials can deny you entry on the basis of "this person's story doesn't add
up".)

~~~
dopeboy
Yes on the visa point - can't be totally random. The rest you can.

I'm about to embark on a 3 week trip through south east asia. Aside from my
liveaboard where I'll be living on a boat and diving (which I have to book in
advance), I haven't booked a single accommodation. It can be done; hostels all
the way.

~~~
mcv
I did it with my wife when we visited Croatia ages ago. We only planned the
flight there (to Split) and the flight back (from Zagreb), and we had to
figure out how where to sleep and how to get everywhere. We visited the big
island at the coast near Split, we visited Dubrovnic, the big nature park in
the middle of the country. It was great. Not hard to do at all.

Though I expect some places outside Europe it might get a bit harder.

------
trippypig
Read one book. Dostoyevsky's ‘Crime and Punishment’, concentrating on all of
the various ways he portrays righteousness.

He helps you see what's right in front of you, namely that people do wrong
things not because they are evil or bad, but because they are weak.

Once you understand people as inherently weak, that they do stupid shit
because they are essentially helpless, not because they're bad or evil or
cruel, it becomes so much easier to forgive.

Mental toughness is all about forgiving and forgetting, and you learn to
forgive only by accepting that people are weak, that people are essentially
incapable of doing what's right.

Here one of my favorite quotes from the book:

“She is so unhappy! Ah, how unhappy! She believes there must be righteousness
everywhere. She expects it. She doesn't see that it's impossible for people to
be righteous and she is angry at it.”

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blm
I wonder how much difference physical stress Vs mental stress it makes. Stress
is stress. Anxiety (mental stress) causes physical symptoms. The will to
continue in physical endeavours is through changing the mind and being
determined to continue. Mind over matter. This want to stop doing physical
stuff comes from the mind. So improving the mental toughness comes from
repetitively attempting to breach this barrier.

Goggins even says stuff in his interviews with Joe Rogan that indicate that he
would agree. Most people stop physical activity not when the body is exhausted
but when the brain thinks the body is done. When Jesse Itzler interviewed with
Joe Rogan about Goggins, he said Goggins thought people only did 40% of what
they were capable of until they changed their mind.

------
mettamage
Sorry for the bit unedited/rough comment but I don't have too much time so I'm
typing pretty fast.

(1) Learning how to program

(2) Hacking hardware

(3) Learning Andy McKee Rylynn on guitar while only knowing Wonderwall
(there's a YouTube tutorial).

(4) Breathing/anapana/'basic'/the-first-meditation-beginners learn meditation
and Tonglen (see the book search inside yourself for instructions) meditation
[1].

(5) In general: by bootcamping yourself. Also known as being woefully
underprepared and then just do it for 8 to 16 hours per day (the hours depend
on how the rest of your life balance is, your health must be ok).

I wasn't talented at hardware hacking and hated programming when I started
with it. It was my curiosity that said: can't you learn to like it? You can
create awesome things with it!

Curiosity + the promise of creating awesome things + observing myself and
being rational on how to influence myself = learning how to program despite
hating it initially.

But in general: focus a lot on what you're doing and focus as deep as you
possibly can and do that for as long as possible. This state is in some was
easier to get into if you're doing a topic that seems super hard for you to
learn and that you don't know a lot about.

For physical toughness: learn the Wim Hof Method -- adrenaline whenever you
want it. I'm pretty sure that will help for developing physical toughness.

[1] In my experiene the following meditations don't develop mental toughness,
they only develop empathy or a form of emotional intelligence: Vipassana/body
scan/mindfulness, loving kindness keditation/metta (yes the same metta as my
username implies).

~~~
theredking
Thanks a ton for the reply! I was definitely thinking along the lines of a
bootstrap workshop!

------
jgalvez
Get married and divorce a couple of times.

~~~
clouddrover
It can be torture:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvyakoiU0zA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvyakoiU0zA)

------
winslett
I shot skeet competitively when I was younger. I competed at a high level.
Unlike many other sports where competitors affect your play, the only reason
you fail in skeet is because of you. The target will fly the same. The gun and
ammunition will perform.

The outcome of any one event is Boolean: you hit the target or you miss.
Feedback is instant.

You have to learn to put your mind into the zone. You do that through
repetition. While competing, if you worry about your competitor, or the next
shot, or how you look, you will miss. Coincidentally, you learn to turn off
your brain from trying too hard. A relaxed brain and body are quicker to
react, and more powerful.

I leaned mental toughness through a game with small Boolean feedback, which
rewards focus and rejects excessive effort. It is like instant feedback on
meditation.

------
ForHackernews
I really recommend "The Art and Craft of Problem Solving" by Paul Zeitz, who
coached the winning USA team in the International Math Olympiad:
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/593458.The_Art_and_Craft...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/593458.The_Art_and_Craft_of_Problem_Solving)

One of the things he focuses on is repeatedly challenging yourself with
problems you don't know how to solve, and to stick with them and keep trying
different angles and approaches. Even if you don't make progress, you'll be
conditioning yourself to tolerate longer periods spent working the problem
without a payoff.

------
known
Protect yourself from

    
    
       Machiavellianism(manipulate/deceive others)
       Psychopathy(lack of remorse/empathy)
       Sadism(pleasure in suffering of others) 
       Narcissism(egotism/self-obsession)

------
alex_duf
Why would you want to develop "intellectual mental toughness", how do you
define it?

Edit:

Okay googling a bit, I think mental toughness is an incredibly poor name for
the concept. I'm this close to put that "mental toughness" name into the
"toxic masculinity" box.

My advice would be don't be afraid to make mistakes, and be kind to yourself
when you make some. I've noticed that when facing failure the best pattern
would be to pardon yourself and allow yourself to learn from it. Take a step
back.

------
notduncansmith
Practice identifying the ego underlying your rationale and the way you
interact with people. The more you’re able to confront and abandon, the
mentally-tougher you’ll be.

~~~
theredking
Thanks for the advice man! Means a lot!

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jaboutboul
Learn and practice meditation. It’s the only way. I can highly recommend the
book Mental Resilience: The Power of Clarity [1] by Kamal Sarma It comes with
a CD (yes they still make those) to help you early on with some guided
meditations while you build up.

[1]: [https://www.amazon.com/Mental-Resilience-Clarity-Develop-
War...](https://www.amazon.com/Mental-Resilience-Clarity-Develop-
Warrior/dp/1577316258)

~~~
jamesholden
+1 for your post. I DID do a double take on the author's name though. I read
it Kama Sutra at first..

------
rebuilder
In my experience, learning to tolerate physical discomfort translates pretty
well to mental resilience as well.

------
Regardsyjc
I do the things that scare the shit out of me consistently. The things that
you wouldn't even consider an option and that many people might consider
impossible. When things get really hard, I lean into the pain. Sometimes the
pain will be overwhelming, but it will pass. Eventually you'll get used to the
pain and things will get boring, you'll plateau, and then you pick the next
mountain that scares the shit out of you to start the cycle all over again.

I think life might be a little like a video game. You need to make sure you
conquer all your base mountains first- things like good mental health
(stoicism), physical health, and healthy relationships. If those 3 are covered
you can bounce back from anything. At least from my experience and my
experience includes 2 suicide attempts, starting my own business, and
surviving a bunch of bad stuff.

It is really really easy to develop mental toughness from physical exercise.
The two go hand in hand. You can't push your body without pushing your mind.
Many physical boundaries are mental boundaries. Physical exercise is the
easiest way to challenge your mental boundaries if you can.

I love long-distance running. It's an easy way to see and test your boundaries
and get fit at the same time. Once you hit your redline or hell when you're
running- being able to push through hell and finish is key. Slowly and surely
you'll be able to run through longer distances of hell. Remembering that pain,
knowing that you can meet your boundaries and surpass them, can help you deal
with almost everything. It's a confidence-builder. It translates to mental
toughness- doing the things and confronting your personal demons, each
personal demon you conquer brings you to a bigger demon, but all the small
demons you conquered along the way become your allies.

Whenever I face a tough situation, it's like lol this is nothing compared to
the shit I've been through. Or almost like an anime cliche, I've conquered
everything that I've come up against so far, I'm not quitting now.

What doesn't kill you, literally makes you stronger. Do all the things that
you irrationally think might kill you or that makes you figuratively want to
die when you think about it. Your "I'd rather die than do x, y, and z".

In my experience, the figurative dying in "I'd rather die" often feels like
failing. So die/fail often. I don't know if you ever get used to it, but you
start to like it after a while. It feels like progress. Growth pains that you
lean into I guess.

------
benirving
Definitely an out there response, but recreational drugs take you to a place
where you build up different views on how 'everything' works. Really gives you
a different perspective on what is "difficult" in life.

Oh, and meditation and video games surely.

------
mping
What makes you think that mental fortitude is not required for physical
toughness? You got it backwards, it's the mind that says the body to quit.

Do harder things progressively. Personally I recommend a certain style of Chan
meditation, but its not easy to stick to its training plan. To bootstrap, the
easy way is to do it in group so you don't quit - MMA, stoicism whatever is OK
but there is much more to mental toughness than that imho.

------
random_upvoter
I suppose you want mental toughness because you want to achieve some task that
requires mental toughness.

So, develop mental toughness by trying to achieve said task.

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llamaz
different things work for different people, but personally I do hard drugs

------
DanBC
Exposure to uncomfortable situations works, but you need to do it properly.

Some people find a cognitive behaviour therapy model useful.

------
pjc50
For what purpose? If you want to learn how to cope with having your work
rejected, become an author.

------
who-knows95
i must say i am a advocate of physical suffering for developing "toughness"
but, not because i'm a masochist, loving the pain of walking or suffering
through cold.

the mental toughness comes from a need to ignore physical pain and drive
through to the end, as you have no other choice.

in simple terms it's "drive or die".

i'm also a follower of stoic ideology, if you look into that, you can read the
thoughts of many great men, but they all suffered.

i'm not sure if i can help with intellectual mental toughness, but i assume
this means mental toughness without physical suffering?

------
lancewiggs
Why is this a goal? Perhaps consider instead increasing your ability to have
empathy, as toughness implies lack of caring about what is happening around
you.

------
cesidio
Learn to be comfortable being alone

------
chmielewski
I’ve always been a fan of deliberate asceticism and the mantra “let me suffer
or let me die”

------
thiago_fm
grow up in a third world country

~~~
theredking
On that i do have a head start I'm Indian

------
runjake
BJJ (especially sparring) and running (nearly) every morning.

------
bobosha
Become an entrepreneur. It's MMA for the mind.

------
de_watcher
Play some Dota 2.

------
tshanmu
have a cold shower every day! (not in the tropics - I mean in places where a
cold shower is genuinely uncomfortable)

meditation

~~~
random_kris
been doing this for past 10 days or so.... I can't exactly say what is better
but I feel like I am overall 10-20% better than before. With meditation I do
wim-hof breathing for 20minutes every morning

------
bojanvidanovic
Mediation can teach you this.

------
zachguo
Having Asian parents.

------
swah
Listen to Jocko Willink all day...

------
gaius
Read the Stoics. Take up an endurance sport.

What is mental toughness? It is perspective and belief to step back and
realise that the suffering is only temporary and will ultimately be worth
having endured.

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InGodsName
Let's say mental toughness = mental harm/abuse resitance.

Maybe it's similar to how we develop drug resistance. By exposing yourself to
difficult situation which are challenging for your mind, you might develop
mental toughness.

------
shanghaiaway
Living in China.

