
“I had so many advantages, and I barely made it”: Pinterest engineer on sexism - GuiA
http://qz.com/659196/i-had-so-many-advantages-and-i-barely-made-it-pinterests-tracy-chou-on-sexism-in-tech/
======
matheweis
I'm ... not sure what to make of this. I'm not a woman, so not qualified to
comment as such, but I can say without question that I've had to struggle
through many similar issues, just take sex out of the picture - everything
from watching classmates apparently breeze through classes that I've had to
take four times to wondering if my career success is just because I'm a white
American male.

Edit: I took a risk saying something like this, and have some karma to burn,
but please, if you downvote, at least say why.

~~~
ahris
There's a well documented and researched confidence gap between men and women.
While confidence isn't an issue restricted to just women, it is a more
prominent issue for them on average. Did a quick search, and here's the first
paper I found on the topic. There's a ton more, though I'm not sure which are
publicly available.

[http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/sarsons/files/confidence_fi...](http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/sarsons/files/confidence_final.pdf?m=1437407065)

Also, what you're talking about is also called stereotype threat, which is
where "people feel themselves to be at risk of conforming to stereotypes about
their social group". First step to combating those feelings is often
recognizing them!

~~~
chrismcb
And how is this sexism? Or are you suggesting they professors should treat
women differently? I was half way through the article before realizing the
author was female. She could have been anyone, and have the same issues. And
then we find out the professor encouraged her.

------
completereset
Everything is someones else's fault.

I don't have confidence in myself. Fault of society. Sexism.

I don't know how how to reject advances. Fault of men. Sexism. (BTW. How is
giving anyone's a t-shirt with your name a sexual harassment? I could totally
imagine a guy giving one to another guy and other than being rather lame gift,
not be a big deal.)

Obviously being a guy makes it so much different, and your road to becoming an
engineer is very straightforward. You're always overconfident, never shy,
noone ever is mean to you, noone ever bullies you, society melted you to be a
perfect human being capable of anything you desire.

It's amusing to see how woman raised in America (especially CA!), where
everything is super sexist-conscious, and sometimes plain rigged in favor of
girls (eg. how many boys vs girls gets drugged for ADHD, as they naturally
can't stand still in the class?), still find a way to blame everything on
sexism.

~~~
saiprashanth93
Whatever you say about her, the sexism she has faced in certain situations
cannot be denied.

Giving a t-shirt with your name on it to a dude friend of yours is not the
same as giving a t-shirt with your name on it to the intern who has joined the
company.

The first comes off as a joke, the second is just downright creepy and is the
side effect of poor social skills.

~~~
mdpopescu
Are you saying that you should take into account the... wait for it... _sex_
of the person you're giving the gift to? Wouldn't that be, you know, sexist?

------
akamaka
As a guy, I experienced the same feelings of not being good enough to make it
as a programmer, throughout school and my early career.

Of my programmer friends and classmates who quickly landed good jobs, only one
ever took the initiative to ask his boss to consider hiring me. The others
just smiled and shrugged when I begged for career advice.

Once I had squeezed into my first company, I rarely received support from my
coworkers, and mostly advanced my skills through staying at work for extra
hours and spending lonely weekends on side projects. I've come a long way, but
I still wonder how far ahead I would be today if I'd just received a bit more
support early on.

I'm not convinced that there is widespread sexism in the computer industry,
because I've worked alongside and been managed by many fantastic women, and
witnessed them advance as quickly as me.

However, I think it's a rare individual who can become a great programmer
without having strong support, mentorship and encouragement. Women need that
support just as crucially as men, and it's important to draw attention to the
places where they are not receiving it.

~~~
sinak
ahris's response to another comment applies here as well:

"While confidence isn't an issue restricted to just women, it is a more
prominent issue for them on average."

This is generally an important thing to consider. Just because a particular
issue applies to you or you've seen a similar pattern amongst male colleagues
doesn't mean that it isn't a more acute issue for women.

> I'm not convinced that there is widespread sexism in the computer industry,
> because I've worked alongside and been managed by many fantastic women, and
> witnessed them advance as quickly as me.

Relying on just the evidence you have directly around you is the same as
relying on anecdotes. It's possible you've been lucky and work at a
particularly un-sexist companies, but that perhaps the industry as a whole has
an issue with sexism.

~~~
akamaka
You're entirely correct, though I want to emphasize that while I understand
that my own experiences are limited, I haven't found arguments that there is
widespread sexism to be more convincing than my own experience. I'm quite open
to being convinced otherwise, should a strong argument be made.

------
fatjokes
This is a bit off-topic. I noticed the author was listed as one of "Forbes 30
under 30" in 2014. I'm sorry, but I must ask: how? The other folks on the list
include the founders of Dropcam, Snapchaat, Stripe, etc., while the author is
listed as merely "software engineer at Pinterest" with a great resume of good
schools, scholarships and internships. Similarly, there is one other fellow
who is simply listed as "security expert". I guess this is more of a critique
of Forbes than anything.

~~~
whorleater
A cursory google search says that she's done work[1] in[2] diversity[3] for
women, which is a pretty big deal, even if people are tired of hearing about
it.

[1]: [http://readwrite.com/2014/11/11/tracy-chou-pinterest-
enginee...](http://readwrite.com/2014/11/11/tracy-chou-pinterest-engineering-
how-i-got-my-start/)

[2]: [http://www.vogue.com/4537369/pinterest-tracy-chou-silicon-
va...](http://www.vogue.com/4537369/pinterest-tracy-chou-silicon-valley/)

[3]: [http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/07/30/pinterest-
dive...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/07/30/pinterest-diversity-
women-underrepresented-minorities-silicon-valley-jesse-jackson/30881091/)

~~~
gdix
Each of those sources were written after she was chosen as a 30-under-30 so it
doesn't really answer the question of what made Forbes choose her.

You have to admit that it is kind of interesting that the list are pretty much
all founders or people who have invented something incredible. Her bio on
Forbes's article lists her as a "rising star"[1]. Founder, founder, founder,
founder, rising-star, founder, founder, founder. Am I sexist for pointing this
out?

[1] [http://www.forbes.com/special-
report/2014/30-under-30/techno...](http://www.forbes.com/special-
report/2014/30-under-30/technology.html)

~~~
aiiane
There's also a designer, an engineering manager, a "security expert", a
researcher, and a "hacker" \- all men

Also, note that just because the sources cited in grandparent were written
after, that doesn't mean she wasn't already working on it before, e.g.

[https://medium.com/@triketora/where-are-the-numbers-
cb997a57...](https://medium.com/@triketora/where-are-the-numbers-
cb997a57252#.31uw8sqvo)

[https://github.com/triketora/women-in-software-
eng/commit/02...](https://github.com/triketora/women-in-software-
eng/commit/0245cca39dae607b18fd71303cd55976b42ca444)

------
a-saleh
> Like many a woman before me, I had run smack into the confidence gap.

I was thinking about this lately. I realized, that among my friends, we have
been playing this weird game of terrible insults and trying to appear the
smartest guy in the room since we were 10. We still do it while in pub some-
times :)

Interestingly, girls never wanted to participate. I remember talking to one of
my friends in High School where she told me how terrible one of my friends
was, where he was always ridiculing her. I tried to explain, that this was
normal among that particular group of friends, and that she should ridicule
him back. She thought that attempting that wasn't worth the time and effort,
because the result of her trying to flip the ridicule would probably be just
more ridicule towards her. My thoughts were, yes, it took me 3 years to learn
to endure the ridicule and fire back ... so, yeah, probably not worth it to
get into this game, if you don't find it fun.

But as a esult, with this way we were trying to one-up each other for better
part of a decade, of course "we were unfazed by any of the challenges
professors might throw our way".

------
ae_keji
This doesn't sound so much like an issue with sexism in tech so much as an
issue with sexism and social conditioning. Women are taught to be
perfectionist and hyperjudgemental about themselves. Of course this translates
miserably into tech, rather than a more stable job with less unknowns and
better integrated into the rest of societal structures, not a field hardly
more than fifty years old in its modern state. Which I find interesting, as
those very social structures are the ones not kind to women in the first
place. I guess it just goes to show how deep the pressure placed on women
runs.

IMHO there's nothing that can really be done about the examples guys being
assholes, or nothing that can be realistically done about all of them, but I
think nine tenths of this article wouldn't exist if we start raising girls to
be risk takers instead of social objects. Notice how much the author obsessed
over themself in relation to everyone surrounding them. Fifteen hours on an
assignment wasn't a problem until she heard of her peers doing it in less
time. We're simply not going to have women succeeding in tech and
entrepreneurship until we break down the construct of women existing solely as
objects that are parts their society. We're all the absolute worst kinds of
sexists, because of what men and women expect of young girls. Of course
they're going to fail when they're raised believing that trying and failing is
worse than not trying at all.

~~~
clevernickname
>We're simply not going to have women succeeding in tech and entrepreneurship
until we break down the construct of women existing solely as objects that are
parts their society.

Women are taken very seriously (helped and protected) when they portrays
themselves as objects in need of help, and are not taken seriously as
seriously when they try to act as free agents. Men are taken more seriously
when they act as free agents, but are cast aside when they show vulnerability.
Some believe that this is purely because of societal expectations, some
believe that this is purely because of biology, and some believe it is
somewhere in between. But no matter which you believe is true, it should be
clear that continuing to portray yourself and your gender as vulnerable and
incapable of achieving their goals without external (male) support is doing
the exact opposite of making you seem like a mature free agent. It makes you
seem like a child.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C46rSIfTum4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C46rSIfTum4)

------
notmything
She didn't think she was good enough to take up Comp Sci because the guys had
a lot of bluster and seem to 'get things' quicker than her... Is that sexism?

~~~
KaiserPro
[edit, in this case I'd suggest that...]Sexism is a side effect of engineers
being utter arseholes.

Fortunately the toxic "bow down to my magisterial knowledge, any person that
dares to ask questions shall be cast into apostasy" isn't pervasive in any of
the companies I work.

Having a daughter, it really shows in stark relief that girls are not allowed
to be leaders, they are just bossy little [insert word here].

Women in meetings have to steep themselves in business passive to get an idea
across, which is both fucking sad and annoying in equal terms.

As for watching nerdy bro's hit on women, if fucking pathetic. Iterative a/b
tests of single chatup lines do not work on the same person.

Its a shame you weren't confident of your own opinion enough to use a real
account.

~~~
ae_keji
Is sexism a side effect of engineers being assholes or is engineers being
assholes a problem because sexism exists so much in the first place? It's very
easy to blame a company or a subculture as being sexist, but no one thinks
about how the entirety of Western society is still damn sexist. The fact that
makeup exists, for example. Women are universally expected to be subordinate
and seen before heard. Women keep getting pushed around because that's what
our social structure expects them to do. Engineers not being assholes isn't
going to solve the problem. Women being assholes, and everyone getting used to
that, just might.

~~~
KaiserPro
I broadly agree here, but I'd suggest that its more nuanced than 'western
culture' sexism in britian is different to in america.

However, I work in tech, so I can't comment on other areas. But I'd love
engineers to stop being arseholes, it make life much easer, and we'd get more
things done.

------
mynameishere
She is living a life of great privilege. But she wants to be a victim.
(Society teaches that this is a good thing to be.) But no--nerdy guys
occasionally flirting with you doesn't make you a victim. No, the mere
existence and layout of pink dolls in Walmart don't make you a victim. No,
applying meme-of-the-day terms like "Impostor Syndrome" to yourself doesn't
make you a victim. Sorry.

You're more privileged than 99.9 percent of the world. Just admit it and drop
the false morality.

~~~
warlox
_One offered to give me a massage “because I looked stressed.” Another tried
to get me to watch a movie with him in a dark room with the door locked and
blinds closed. Later, he gave me a custom-made t-shirt with his name
emblazoned across the front._

These repeated unwanted sexual advances are textbook sexual harassment,
specifically creating a hostile work environment. If she had gotten them to
text those things to her, she would have grounds for a lawsuit.

Here's the definition of sexual harassment:

 _Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances,
requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a
sexual nature... harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that
it creates a hostile or offensive work environment._

[https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm](https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm)

~~~
bpchaps
I never understood the whole sexual harassment thing in tech. Don't get me
wrong, I understand how awful the entire situation is, but it sounds much more
like a systemic issue than an issue that simply affects tech. The whole idea
that many, many, many people find their significant others through work seems
to indicate that in tech, it's "just" a hyper-condensed artifact of a much
larger issue. I'm very curious what others think or if they know of any recent
and relevant papers in either direction.

~~~
warlox
Sexual harassment is pervasive throughout all industries. I was replying to a
comment that was ridiculously dismissive of a clear example of sexual
harassment without speaking specifically about tech.

Basically, the law as it stands says that you can express romantic interest to
a coworker once for free, but you have to drop it if they're not receptive.

------
jankiel
Pinterest engineer, facebook and google intern, daughter of two engineers
tells us how awful her life was because her classmates were absurdly arrogant
( _all_ of them) and two co-workers were dicks. Right. I'll never get this
successful, but I'm white cis male so I should pity her I guess?

------
bsder
I see her complaints about her misperceived technical competence relative to
her peers as orthogonal to the sexism. I'm going to skip the sexism part
because I really don't have the competence to talk about it.

First, she went to Stanford, a school absolutely _BUILT_ on bullshit, bluster,
competitiveness and social networking. I'm about as dead center of the
stereotypical male engineer as it gets--and the Stanford attitude came through
and sure made me cringe when looking at graduate school. UC Berkeley matched
my personality much more strongly.

Second, her parents inculcated into her to care way too much about her
relative competence rather than _doing something interesting_. This, in my
opinion, is always the dividing line that separates out the genuinely good
from the mediocre. When you write a website to optimize trading card game
returns, who cares whether it took you 5 hours or 15 hours to write it? It
does something you think is interesting, and that is good enough.

Third, it seems like being the offspring of two PhD parents that she was
missing a few social survival skills that most people learn from home. To
quote House: "It's a basic truth of the human condition that everybody lies.
The only variable is about what." That doesn't make people bad, but everybody
has their own wants, needs, desires, agendas, etc. Everybody has to learn to
deal with that at some point.

And, my thanks to that professor who made you a TA. I have occasionally,
myself, had to twist the arm of a female undergraduate to become a TA, take on
a programming assignment for a company, or enter a programming competition.

------
Cartwright2
This was a good article about the stresses of entering a programming career.

The strained sexism tie-ins were unnecessary because most of the challenges
she faced are universal, I remember hearing the same gloating conversations
and feeling the same way when I was young.

As for the back massages and tshirts with men's names on them, that is a bit
weird and should probably be taken up with their supervisor if it continues.
It's most likely to be caused by poorly calibrated social cues than straight
up sexism. There's nothing sexist about awkwardly showing interest in someone,
it's only a problem if they don't take no for an answer.

~~~
juliendorra
Except that men disproportionately "awkwardly show interest" in random
colleagues, strangers, passer-by.

All the women you know have experienced it, several times. Most of the men you
know never experienced it.

So there is something sexist here, because women experience a flow of
continual "akward interests" from random men that they have to manage. It's
all on the women to manage men's akward interests, and from what my female
friends tell me it is really stressing and wearing them down.

(I did an art-documentarish piece a few years ago, going and interviewing my
friends about public space harassment and how they built techniques to manage
mens. There's an excerpt in french there: [https://www.facebook.com/Le-
sac-%C3%A0-main-269196498659/](https://www.facebook.com/Le-
sac-%C3%A0-main-269196498659/) )

------
chrismcb
Where was the sexism? Her professor encouraged her. She went to a prestigious
school. She got an internship at some big companies that don't give
internships out to everyone. She was treated as an intern, because she was an
intern, not because she was female. And it sounds like she was treated like a
female in some social situations. There isn't enough info in the article to
determine if those situations were sexual harassment. But the article didn't
mention any cases where her superiors treated her differently because of her
gender.

------
meric
_I felt as if I was welcomed because I was cute to keep around, not because
there was any expectation of my doing useful, good work._

It's hard to do the latter - I think I'd succumb to welcoming women in the
workplace to avoid being sexist, as opposed to the expectation of the
colleague doing useful, good work - now that I think about it - ironically in
trying to reduce sexism in the workplace, I would make a sexist situation
worse. Maybe it would be better not to have read the article at all.

~~~
solidsnack9000
I think men have relatively few social experiences where they see women create
and maintain a driven, competitive environment -- for one another or for both
men and women. I experienced this only rather late in life when I took ballet.

~~~
meric
Good point - I haven't been in many situations where I had to compete with a
woman directly. I suspect part of the reason why it's uncomfortable for women
to break into software engineering is because it's mostly men. It'd be
uncomfortable for me to work 8 hours a day in a room full of women, at least
until I got used to it.

What do you think of ballet? Was it hard to get into as a man? Were there any
prejudice issues where you were discriminated against on the basis of your
gender, or was it as easy as in other fields of work?

~~~
solidsnack9000
I never worked in it, I only took classes as a hobby. I had private lessons
for a time; I think that made things easier. And having a male instructor
early on certainly made a difference.

There is no discrimination but there can definitely be a sense of being out of
place.

------
adfallou
What is hard (and it's made obvious by all the comments) is to put yourself in
the shoes of someone who's a minority in their environment. I encourage all
guys here to do something simple: go to a Women in <something> meetup (or
Black engineers, anything where you'll be a minority). Chances are, you'll be
one of very few guys/white people, and you might start thinking "do I really
belong here?", and you'll feel a lot more self-conscious. Now imagine if it
felt like that every time you went to classes/to your job - it's hard to
imagine the consequences it could have after a few months or years.

------
Joof
ITT: Hacker news believing that sexism isn't a big deal or otherwise
downplaying it's role. It's like watching people who have never had a mental
illness wonder why it's a big deal. For any normal feeling, assume it's
greater magnitude and a peergroup doesn't exist for support.

Sexism isn't necessarily intentional (socially inexperienced college guys
hitting on the only girls in their peergroup when they are unwanted). However;
it exists and is very measurable. The least we can do is acknowledge it, even
if we don't know what to do about it.

I'm not sure about most of you men, but I happen to like having women around.
If we can't encourage more to work with us, we can at least do our best to be
accepting to the people we already work with.

Edit: We do have great, data-backed responses to all posts as always. Its a
difficult problem to understand because most people won't experience it and
are probably tired of being reminded about.

~~~
mongol
>socially inexperienced college guys hitting on the only girls in their
peergroup when they are unwanted

What is sexist about that? Or do I misunderstand you? Not native English
speaker...

~~~
hackuser
This might help:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11485689](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11485689)

~~~
mongol
Yes but that is about harassment. I don't think sexism is the same thing.

------
donretag
How does someone with such a pedigree not know how to program before
university? I grew up poor in an immigrant neighborhood and even in the early
'80s (really bad time in NYC), I was coding Basic in sixth grade on a
Commodore Vic-20. In high school, I was doing Pascal on PCs and assembly on a
Zilog Z-80. Did I mention my family was dirt poor? My parents never even have
a chance to go to high school.

Let's face it, writing software is not for everybody. The author is such a
person.

~~~
aiiane
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that only people who have been
doing things since their childhood can or should become experts in those
things.

~~~
qb45
You may want to compile some list of counterexamples or few will treat you
seriously.

I'm skeptic. It takes dedication and time to become an expert. And the older
you are, the easier it is to find yourself working for survival all your time
or get lost in bullshit and no longer have the clarity of mind to learn.

