

Julian Assange: Edward Snowden is ‘marooned in Russia’ - Libertatea
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/julian-assange-edward-snowden-is-marooned-in-russia/2013/06/30/67ed243e-e191-11e2-9960-65d66450db63_story.html?tid=rssfeed

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mindcrime
So, the moral of this story, as I see it, is something like:

Start the process of creating a false identity (or two or three or ten) _right
now_ , if you think you may ever be in a position to need to flee across
international borders. Obtain multiple sets of credentials, including
passports and related documents.

I know this isn't an easy process, but it's at least theoretically possible.
Neil Strauss gets into it a bit in his book _Emergency_ [1], and there are
dozens of other books[2][3][4][5][6] out there on how to obtain a new
identity, forge documents, etc.. And if it takes a little "black hat" hacker
action as well... well, so be it.

[1]: [http://www.amazon.com/Emergency-This-Book-Will-
Save/dp/00608...](http://www.amazon.com/Emergency-This-Book-Will-
Save/dp/0060898771/ref=sr_1_1)

[2]: [http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Back-Alley-Man-
Construction/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Back-Alley-Man-
Construction/dp/1581602685)

[3]: [http://www.amazon.com/Acquiring-New-ID-Easily-
Technology/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Acquiring-New-ID-Easily-
Technology/dp/0873648943/ref=pd_sim_b_4)

[4]: [http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Identity-Changer-Privacy-
Person...](http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Identity-Changer-Privacy-
Personal/dp/1581604319/ref=pd_sim_b_3)

[5]: [http://www.amazon.com/The-I-D-Master-Identity-Change-
Profess...](http://www.amazon.com/The-I-D-Master-Identity-Change-
Professionals/dp/1559502290/ref=pd_sim_b_6)

[6]: [http://www.amazon.com/Make-Drivers-Licenses-Other-
Computer/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Make-Drivers-Licenses-Other-
Computer/dp/1559501944/ref=pd_sim_b_8)

~~~
hkmurakami
A more straightforward option may have been to outright get citizenship in
another country. If he was making $200k/year, then in a few years he probably
would have had enough funds to indirectly "buy" citizenship in another country
(it's no secret that wealth expedites the naturalization process without even
needing to make bribes).

If here were willing to wait 5 years to see if the Obama administration would
make things better, he probably could have afforded to wait another few years.
(Though one mitigating factor is the time limit after obtaining the documents
and getting found out)

~~~
adventured
He was making $125,000 per year, and $200,000 was the most that he made
earlier in his career.

Here's the math. $150,000 average - $44,000 for income taxes. Subtract another
minimum of $3k to $4k per month for living expenses, given he was in Hawaii.

Snowden likely couldn't have saved more than $35k to $50k per year.

It would have taken him a decade or more to save the kind of funds required to
both buy citizenship and live on it.

~~~
agilebyte
Dominica citizenship goes for $100k (1).

Cost of living in Dominica (2) is between 40-60% cheaper than in Honolulu.
Working as a telecommuting freelancer I think he would be fine.

1: [http://www.isla-offshore.com/services/citizenship-
dominica/](http://www.isla-offshore.com/services/citizenship-dominica/)

2: [http://www.numbeo.com/](http://www.numbeo.com/)

~~~
br78
Is Dominica a safe haven from CIA rendition though?

------
ars
So for the second time in a row Ecuador is not actually serious about granting
asylum. They are happy to pay lip service, but when it comes to action, they
are not so willing.

~~~
jorgeseagull
What do you want them to do? Bomb the Russians?

~~~
ars
Let him fly without a passport.

~~~
cwp
It's not that simple. The _airline_ has to agree to let him fly without a
passport, and assurances from Ecuador that he'll be allowed to enter might not
be enough to convince them to to that. Also, there probably aren't any direct
flights from Moscow to Quito, so he'll need cooperation from some other
country, and possibly another airline as well. That's conceivable, but might
not work out, and Snowden probably wouldn't know that it's not working out
until he was in handcuffs.

~~~
ars
Ecuador has several national airlines, in particular TAME. They could charter
a flight with them if they actually wanted to.

Which they don't.

They could also ask a diplomat to escort him.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
A charter flight from Russia to Ecuador costs hundreds of thousands of dollars
and approaches the distance limits of private jets. I doubt they even do this
for themselves.

------
baby
This is the first mistake Edward Snowden has done, although leaving HK could
have been one, but going through Russia... Especially without passport, that's
like a gift.

I foresee a very bad future for this man, and this is infuriating.

~~~
rgbrenner
(speculation follows.. feel free to ignore) I wonder if Snowden was aware his
passport was canceled when he left HK. HK says they did not receive the
cancellation in time to prevent him from boarding the plane to Russia. So it's
entirely possible he left HK thinking he had a valid passport and would be
able to leave Russia... only learning otherwise once he arrived there.

~~~
ars
Much more likely is that wikileaks assured him "Don't worry, it'll be fine."
Wikileaks is much more concerned with getting lots of publicity than with
actually getting him someplace safe (otherwise why would they tell everyone in
advance what they are going to do).

He had to know that canceling his passport would be the very first thing the
US would do.

~~~
Ultron
That's unfair. Wikileaks got involved because they wanted to help. Things
haven't worked out as planned.

HN readers are so fickle. The biggest wafflers on the internet. You will find
no loyalty here.

~~~
ars
I'm not fickle - I started having doubts on December 24, 2009 when they shut
down the website to beg for money. I started wondering if their goal was money
for the founder or leaking things.

My doubts grew larger on September 25, 2010 when Daniel Domscheit-Berg aired
his complaints.

And dislike was finalized on October 22, 2010 - not because of what they
released, but because they shut down the archive.

It turned from WikiLeaks to AssangeLeaks after that. Instead of releasing
anything, they released only what Assange wanted to release.

They have done nothing since to regain the name "wiki". Assange has made
himself into the story.

------
lawnchair_larry
For those wondering about why a private/charter jet is not really feasible:

[http://blog.privatefly.com/edward-snowden-fly-private-jet-
mo...](http://blog.privatefly.com/edward-snowden-fly-private-jet-moscow-
ecuador)

Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

------
ferdo
Not to be the eternal skeptic, but has anyone seen any pictures of Snowden in
the Hong Kong or Moscow airports?

~~~
TillE
Didn't Putin himself say he's there?

It's quite a stretch to think that the Russian government was blatantly lying
about this. It would be a very strange move that gains them little or nothing.

I'm willing to entertain the theory that Snowden left Moscow in the past
couple days, though. It _is_ pretty strange that no one has seen him.

~~~
ferdo
> Didn't Putin himself say he's there?

Trusting the word of any politician or world leader is a risky biz.

> It is pretty strange that no one has seen him.

The most talked about man in the world was hanging around two major
international airports and no one got a picture.

Color me skeptical.

~~~
lostlogin
Trusting the word of a politician in one thing, trusting Putin is quite
another. Calling Putin a politician is an insult to both politicians and
dictators. And don't forget Putins past life, he is well versed in the spy
versus spy game.

~~~
s-phi-nl
Another reason why going to Russia might not have been the best idea.

------
3327
SO the airlines will not sell him a ticket, couldn't a wealthy individual fly
him out on a private jet in theory?

~~~
verroq
The host country has the accept his arrival. After this wealthy individual
bribed the FSB to let go of Snowden.

------
jpdoctor
I assume the Russians want him to apply for asylum there? What I can't figure
out: Why wouldn't the US prefer to have him in Ecuador rather than Russia (ie,
by canceling his passport)? because it would be a helluva lot easier to apply
pressure to Correa than Putin.

~~~
agotterer
His passport was cancelled before he left Hong Kong and arrived in Russia.
Hong Kong said they didn't receive the update or something. I imagine they
were happy to just have him out of their country.

------
brown9-2
Since he has been there for about a week now, it seems incredibly unlikely
that the Russian government hasn't been able to get their hands on all the
classified material and laptops he took with him. Flying to Russia without a
good plan for step two was an epic mistake.

~~~
b6
I think Snowden and/or Wikileaks would have thought of that before leaving HK.
If the Russians have anything, it's encrypted blobs.

~~~
VladRussian2
>If the Russians have anything, it's encrypted blobs.

i'd be really surprised if Snowden hadn't been made an offer by Russia he'd
have hard time to refuse - give the info to Russia or you're on the next non-
stop flight to New York. Dealing with Russian government ... after not liking
to deal with US ... somewhat illogical.

------
gojomo
So it all went to hell once Wikileaks got involved.

~~~
ars
Yah. I was very surprised when I heard he listened to them. He had a great
plan, and should have stuck with it.

Wikileaks is using him for their own goals, which appear to be to snub the
united states. (Their stated goals, and their actual goals do not match.)

And they have a rather poor track record at actually getting asylum. They are
too public with the process. Instead of just doing it they like to talk about
first, to make sure everyone knows just how much they are snubbing the US in
the process.

~~~
cpeterso
> He had a great plan, and should have stuck with it.

Wasn't Hong Kong prepared to give him up to the US?

~~~
rdl
I'd rather fight in HK for months/years, then be very publicly turned over to
USG (so they can't just disappear to Gitmo), ideally close to election season,
for a public trial, than be in the direct custody and control of Russia or
China (or Iran or North Korea or a few other countries...).

He should not have taken Wikileaks advice and support; sticking to Hong Kong
lawyers, EFF, and maybe other whistleblowers like Binney would have been a lot
better for everyone (including US national security, which is helped by ending
illegal spying and by not compromising legitimate (to the US) spying on
foreign governments).

~~~
refurb
Wow! Of all the "suggestions" on what Snowden should do. This is the most
coherent and reasonable on so far.

Throwing his lot in with China or Russia is a very risky move. The only thing
they both have in common is a desire to embarrass the US. If Snowden becomes a
liability for either of those countries, they will throw him under the bus in
a heartbeat.

The best Snowden can hope for is to drag out the process long enough so
attention dwindles (and possibly some positive changes occur). In five years
one can hope that the US gov't is of the opinion that a strong prosecution is
not in their best interest.

------
andrewcooke
is there any way for germany to help him out? that seems, to me, his best
chance at the moment. they have the political clout and they're pissed off...

~~~
fatjokes
germany being pissed off at america is like siblings being pissed off at one
another. some critical articles in germany and a few harsh words from merkel
and it'll blow over. they're not going to make it into a real issue by taking
in snowden.

~~~
stock_toaster
When governments[1] complain about spying, I imagine it is also often a case
of crocodile tears, as I assume many of them also spy on foreign non-citizens
with regularity.

[1]: Blanket statement about governments in developed countries. Not sure
about Germany specifically.

~~~
Nursie
I like to think it's just possible that some modern countries don't pull this
stuff and are genuinely shocked at just how much espionage we UK and US folks
indulge in.

This may be wishful thinking.

~~~
stock_toaster
I would hope there are many that don't spy on _their own citizens_ with such
regularity, but I find myself being less optimistic about spying on non-
citizens...

------
kyle_martin1
Let's assume Snowden is caught and is up for trial.

The article mentions that there is more confidential data to be released and
it has been distributed to insure it's eventual release. Do you think
WikiLeaks would threaten to release the information if Snowden is convicted of
any crimes?

If this threat were to be made, I'd imagine the USA would convict him anyways
and WikiLeaks releases all the information. And then all hell breaks loose. Or
perhaps the USA negotiates with WikiLeaks & Snowden?

Also, where's Anonymous in all of this? You'd imagine they'd have their hands
all over this, right?

------
ramblerman
Since we don't know all the details this is merely speculative, but I wonder
if leaving Hong Kong was Assange's idea. In which case it seems he might just
have royally screwed Snowden (albeit unintentionally).

------
fixxer
Any bets on when/if the Russians trade Snowden for one of their own?

------
aj700
Rather than rant.

!Just search twitter for 'operation IGNORE Assange' which I have been running
since he went in there!

------
Ultron
Snowden is a symbol and a sign of the future.

If the US government gets their hands on Snowden, and gets their way, I am
absolutely certain America will plunge into an even darker era of deception
and thought control.

Even now, most Americans are too brainwashed to care.

~~~
iy56
Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is brainwashed. That's a real healthy
attitude to take.

