
Elite Disillusionment - apsec112
https://saffronhuang.com/post/elite-disillusionment/
======
doonesbury
I didn't do University until late 20s. And it was a C level state school. But
darn it, it was the best 3.5 years of the best bang for buck dollars spent. My
major was pure math. I loved it. No boss. No office BS. Just me and my
homework. I came to love English the subject I sucked at throughout K-12. I'm
forever grateful to Judy Newland (if memory serves that's her name) for
holding the line on writing. She told me my semester English paper was a total
F. Thank god by my 20s I'd matured enough to stop making excuses. For the
first time I took the criticism and asked how can I fix it? Five drafts later
I got a C and improved from there in time and more classes. I aced literature
classes. I still remember laughing out loud during an Enlightenment Lit final
about a quote from Voltaire (satire, "Candide"). Folks, second chances are
great. I needed it. And when you're ready to grow Harvard may be great but so
are many state Universities too. That's why I tell my older son who's in
university now that it's more like a mirror. If you're on fire it'll reflect
that back to you. And if you're just passing through uni will be a ok Las
Vegas weekend at best: in-out-done as there was no long term vision anyway.
I'm less and less convinced that human organizations can light kids up. We
gotta come lit up and some hard knocks often helps get that fire started.

~~~
titanomachy
"Candide" is bizarre, surprisingly many laugh-out-loud moments in that book.

~~~
Uhhrrr
It's especially apt today, because we are living in the best of all possible
worlds.

------
IMAYousaf
I find a lot of the skepticism and disillusionment rather unwarranted and
whiny. I went to a well regarded public college for Undergrad. I am now at one
of the most well regarded private colleges in the country. I can absolutely
see the difference in the quality of instruction and opportunities afforded to
Undergrads here compared to my public college. A lot of this seems to be much
ado about nothing.

To add some context, I'm an immigrant to the US. I came here for opportunity.
A lot of people are uncomfortable with what that means. It isn't some Eddie
Murphy "Welcome to America" kumbaya, happy-go-lucky thing. I came here with my
family to out work and out compete everyone for the shot at a better life. If
you look at any STEM class, as opposed to any non-STEM class, the makeup of
people in those classes in both Undergrad, and especially Graduate levels, is
much closer to being representative of people who look like me rather than the
general public/college demographics. In immigrant populations there is no
disillusionment with the elite institutions in America, and more broadly, the
American Dream.

~~~
UweSchmidt
The experiences of the author are not "unwarranted", they are as valid as
yours, and their intention to change the world is a noble one and doesn't
discredit your path. The author mentiones how the environment at Harvard may
tend to limit options in the students' lifes and noted how the "Auckland kids"
back home started companies (among other things), i.e. one of the best ways to
achieve the classic "American Dream", particularly for immigrants.

Similar scepticism is expressed in many other articles and blog posts these
days, questioning the value of traditional and often expensive university
education.

~~~
unabst
But wouldn't you think an "Auckland kid" would fair better as a "Harvard kid"
given the same ambitions with better opportunities and greater access?

Ivy League affiliates enjoy the privileges of being branded Ivy League all
their lives. And the schools are pretty great to boot.

To me the original article was asking the following questions:

Did I have to come to Harvard to do what I want?

Why don't more people make use of their Ivy League privileges?

Why isn't Harvard doing more good for society?

Which does sound a bit whiny, I would think, especially to an Auckland Kid.
The takeaway for me, was that there should be more Auckland Kids at Harvard,
and that OP here is more of an Auckland Kid. He's saying there is little to
complain about if this is what you came for, and that it should have been.

On the other hand, the author of the article presents valid criticism about
Harvard Kids and Harvard, but appears also to be closer to the Harvard Kid
than the Auckland Kids she seems to admire. Sometimes it takes one to know the
others and where you are at.

But at least there are some Auckland Kids in the Ivy Leagues. And I would bet
you there are some Harvard Kids in Auckland too that never made it to Harvard.

~~~
senkora
I think Harvard kid vs Auckland kid is a false dichotomy. The article makes
the argument that there is no difference before college. Harvard takes in kids
who would have been Auckland kids and changes them into something else, and
that's a problem.

Anecdotally, I've seen similar at the top private school that I went to. I had
to give up on idealistic things I did in high school, and would have otherwise
continued doing in college, because of the workload I experienced at school.

~~~
unabst
The "Auckland kid" is the entrepreneur here. And no, I don't believe Harvard
would ruin an entrepreneur that would have succeeded otherwise. And they would
have attractive alternatives.

Everyone changes, especially in college. Regardless of the school, one can
easily assess them the blame, but some of it has to be on you, especially at
an age when you should stop making excuses.

With that said, the work load can be absurd, some peers are arrogant and
elitist, some teachers are total assholes, and not everything is fair or makes
sense. Although, that's true at varying degrees at any school.

------
roenxi
One of the issues this piece gets to is so big it is easy to miss. Kids,
essentially, are getting walked through the accumulated written knowledge of
humanity (well, large chunks thereof since the whole written knowledge is
rather large).

And on the one hand it is good to do that before they are 25 because their
brain will still be developing and it is a great time to be pushing in new
knowledge. On the other hand the school system is so large and slow the good
students probably don't have a lot of real-world grounding to figure out what
they are interested in or what the education is useful for and it is much
easier for a more mature student to enjoy an education and think critically.

Also; this article doesn't mention debt. That is linked to these people taking
high-paid, low risk jobs. I had a friend who went to Harvard and the costs
sounded crippling.

~~~
0wl0
More than half of students are on financial aid and the average aid at Harvard
is $53k per year. Only the really wealthy pay full sticker, so I don't think
debt at Ivy Leagues is generally an issue. It seems they are really best-
placed to take risks.

I like your point about required maturity. Certainly many of my texts read in
high school English need to be revisited. Maybe students should be cycled in
and out of formal education.

------
ggm
Elite University is not about the learning for many people, it's the
networking and jumpstart up the ladder? If you want to learn, even pedestrian
University and community colleges can do what you need but sometimes what you
buy is not education but a 'foot in the door'.

~~~
zwkrt
The point of the article is that Harvard and other such universities do get
your foot in some special doors, but that those doors are mostly to self-
serving jobs that enforce the status quo. Noam Chomsky was right to constantly
point out that it is elites who are most “indoctrinated” in the sense that
they have to be taught to disregard the general public interest.

~~~
hnmullany
I went to Harvard in the early 90's. The difference between the diverse
interests and ambitions of entering freshmen and what 90% of my classmates
ended up doing with their careers (law, medicine, some kind of asset mgt,
academia) is profound.

~~~
heavenlyblue
Harvard is as much of a safe space as taking an obvious career choice.

------
smitty1e
> People get there, and realise that they’re not the best, the smartest, or
> the most hard-working anymore.

At USNA, we said: "You're always someone's boy", meaning: "No matter how great
you are at X, there is always someone who can school you."

~~~
Supermancho
I dont understand why anyone would foster that defeatist message. Sounds as
hollow as most us vs them mantras.

Success and opportunity is not as likely to depend on what metric someone is
"best" as who has the right opportunity at the right time while having a broad
set of skills (almost any level of expertise).

~~~
rimjongun
Less “defeatist” and more “humbling”.

~~~
smitty1e
Nailed it.

------
totemandtoken
I was expecting a mention of Peter Turchin, though I guess this is a more
human approach. Huang's mention of exclusivity for some reason jumped out at
me. So much of the college experience seems to be designed around a false
scarcity be it pointlessly exclusive clubs, waitlists for seats in corona
induced remote learning, semesters as the only amount of time you have to
understand a subject or even the idea of grades as proxies for understanding.
And it's strange how much fuel this provides both sides of the political
aisle...

Even in the comments to this article, I'm seeing both populist right anti-
elite links and populist left analysis framing the college experiences in
terms of class...

Not sure I'm making sense, I'm kind of just writing this out as a form of
thinking out loud...

~~~
ta1234567890
> So much of the college experience seems to be designed around a false
> scarcity be it pointlessly exclusive

Exclusivity is a hell of a drug. It's what gave in big part the large initial
push to Facebook (being first available only to top universities in the US and
then expanding).

It's also what luxury brands try to communicate (even though in reality they
also try to be as massive and non-exclusive as possible, all the while staying
very expensive).

Exclusivity drives FOMO.

------
wrnr
Based on the title I was expecting an essay that honestly examines the root
cause of the anti-establishment, anti-intellectual and anti-elitism slow-rate
backlash we are experiencing, and I am not entirely disappointed with this.

------
abvdasker
Saffron is still in school. This is patronizing, but she doesn't know anything
about real disillusionment yet.

Real disillusionment comes after the elite education.

The stuff that crushes your spirit comes later when you go to work at a FAANG
and realize that the modern tech sector is fueled not by lofty ideals of
innovation and altruistic visions of technological utopia, but by the same
cynical profiteering, exploitation and rent-seeking as every other capitalist
enterprise.

Your attitude changes once you understand that the high-paying tech sector
jobs you spent years of your life training to perform all require you to
compromise your beliefs about what is good/fair/just. The jobs require you to
build things which hurt people for people who only care about money. Imagine
working 40-60 hours a week to make good money doing something you know is _at
best_ a complete waste of time and talent.

Real disillusionment comes after you've lived in San Francisco for a while and
you realize everyone you know also works in tech and thinks, looks and talks
the same way you do and likes the same things you do. And maybe on your way to
work at the glossy tech campus that gives you free lunch that your coworkers
are always complaining about you pass a tent city littered with needles and
human shit.

Eventually you realize that an enormous number of the public figures who went
to your university and succeeded in "changing the world" didn't change it for
the better. And you may wonder if a lot of the things you've been told about
meritocracy and the virtues of intelligence and achievement and wealth
accumulation are true at all.

~~~
moultano
This sounds like it is written by someone who has never worked at a large tech
company, and understands them primarily through the FUD spread about them by
other large tech companies.

~~~
rimjongun
It really doesn’t. It sounds super detailed and convincing to me, somebody who
knows nothing to prove or refute GPS comment. If it’s a lie, god damn it’s a
good one.

~~~
moultano
All of the large tech companies create valuable and beloved products, and most
of the people workings at those companies are working on improving and
maintaining those beloved products.

~~~
rimjongun
This is not my view from the outside, not even close. Perhaps it’s a
perception issue.

~~~
moultano
Which part do you disagree with? The fact that the products are beloved, or
the fact that people are working to improve them?

~~~
amznthrowaway5
I've worked on beloved products and I also disagree. These orgs are full of
cutthroat psychopathic politicians much more than people who care about the
products. They often run on their monopoly status and fail to create any new
value.

------
lowiqengineer
Pretty remarkable that the "elites" are still demanding pity (or at minimum
asking people to discuss their "disillusionment") but there's nary a peep for
people like me who didn't have the privilege of membership in elite
institutions.

What do I get? All I see is constant disrespect from society and from places
like HackerNews. Where's the sympathy for a state school grad like me
struggling to get a top job, or struggling to be taken seriously?

~~~
mac01021
I'm a state school grad without much desire for a job at a prestigious FAANG
company. I do not feel any disrespect from HN or from people I meet on the
street. Is that really your constant experience?

~~~
lowiqengineer
I work at a FAANG (albeit the least respected one) and yes, I do feel this
way.

~~~
groby_b
Consider switching. (Maybe even just within your company, if you like the
place)

Working at FAANG as well, for ~10 years now, and nobody has ever given a lick
about my degree. Good thing too, because I don't have one :) Neither do plenty
of colleagues. There are plenty of colleagues from state schools too. AFAICT -
nobody really cares, so it's not discussed that often.

It's not a big question when evaluating interviews or hiring, either. (I've
seen by now a high three-digit number of interviews)

And, seriously: Get rid of that handle. You're telling yourself a story every
time you see it.

~~~
lowiqengineer
I think it's fine. I just think since I make 80% of what an equivalent Googler
makes, I'm probably valued at 80% or less as a human.

Realistically I don't think many people care deeply, but the folks I'm being
surrounded by definitely didn't go to Ivies. I think they're just fine and I
don't mind working where I work, but it's clear to me that I'm not regarded
highly (or as intelligent) as a person by society. The worst part is I feel
stuck and trapped by my own inherent ability as a person.

~~~
sergefaguet
Pls get help from a therapist. This is a story you’re telling yourself and it
is toxic. It is not grounded in the external world. And this is not something
which can be exited without someone else’s help. I’ve been where you are.

~~~
lowiqengineer
With all due respect, your accomplishments even before college (since you went
to Cornell) were far more significant than my own (and almost definitely more
significant than mine will ever be). I’m not sure how I can use the help of a
therapist if the cause is just a lack of actual accomplishments.

~~~
bloodorange
Please allow me to address that in a different way: How do you intend to make
such accomplishments come true unless you permit yourself to have a mindset
which enables you to believe in yourself and work towards them?

The multiple replies you have here are well meaning and are trying to say that
you need to at least be able to look at things from another perspective.

As for how a therapist can help: a good one is trained to allow you to see
your own thought process and ask yourself questions about them. A good
therapist has also probably seen many cases and has some education, training
and experience in how to help people break out of some unhelpful cycles of
thought. It is not an easy job and not every therapist suits every patient.
Nevertheless, with the right therapist, if one is committed to improving one's
own health, things can start getting better.

Please don't give up and have faith in yourself. I can not deny what you see
as problems. However, please allow me to question if the way you are looking
at them is unavoidable and whether it helps you find a path to somewhere else
(figuratively speaking) where you'd rather be instead.

------
yyyuutt
Interesting thought about closing doors rather than opening. With Elite
schools it is almost a burden that everyone gets a choice of great 6 figure
jobs on graduation. Its the guys that dont get those have the most freedom to
do real innovative stuff.

~~~
082349872349872
Anyone who needs a job in a capitalist economy is by definition not elite.

------
seigando
The point that stuck out to me which I haven't seen people comment on is the
difference noted between those who stayed close to home vs. somebody who
travels across the world for prestige. It's a fact that dependability matters.
Somebody who will leave you or your community for something that seems
'better' to them is a constant issue in our culture.

------
Pils
This article is weird. It was published in six months ago, but the author
recently expanded on the argument in a piece for Palladium[0]. Palladium of
course being the Thiel-funded long form magazine co-founded by alt-right anti-
semite Jonah Bennett[1], who has since moved on from the magazine. What's
interesting is that while the blogpost feels like a more personal narrative
about disillusionment with a specific institution (Harvard), the Palladium
article concludes with a much more concrete point: "Elite stagnation,"
"institutional decay," etc.

Which is to say, fair cop. HYP+MS produce too many consultants, finance bros
and tech PMs is not exactly a unique POV. What is interesting to me is that
Palladium has seemed to have cornered the market on "Student/new grad
disillusioned with <elite institution>" articles[2].

Apsec112, is there a reason you decided to post this older blogpost rather
than the more recent publication?

[0][https://palladiummag.com/2020/07/27/harvard-creates-
managers...](https://palladiummag.com/2020/07/27/harvard-creates-managers-
instead-of-elites/)

[1][https://splinternews.com/leaked-emails-show-how-white-
nation...](https://splinternews.com/leaked-emails-show-how-white-nationalists-
have-infiltra-1837681245)

[2]honestly too many to list: [https://palladiummag.com/2019/08/05/the-real-
problem-at-yale...](https://palladiummag.com/2019/08/05/the-real-problem-at-
yale-is-not-free-speech/), [https://palladiummag.com/2019/01/07/western-
academias-activi...](https://palladiummag.com/2019/01/07/western-academias-
activism-gridlock-threatens-its-status-as-challengers-rise/),
[https://palladiummag.com/2020/06/18/the-new-managerial-
class...](https://palladiummag.com/2020/06/18/the-new-managerial-class-is-not-
a-class-at-all/)

------
scaramanga
This is an interesting, thoughtful and highly relatable read.

But I can't help thinking that the title should, more accurately, be "Elite
Illusionment" :)

