
Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market - HarryHirsch
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/27/business/dealbook/burdened-with-debt-law-school-graduates-struggle-in-job-market.html
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bruceb
I know someone in this situation. It is sad having $100k+ debt.

That being said seems good thing the country to need fewer lawyers.

With the excess where is the $49hr lawyer available for people? I have seen
some on freelancer/uwork sites for $88 but would think could lower than that.

~~~
marincounty
I've been wondering about that to. I think the lawyers from top schools can
lateral into other fields easily. The lawyers I know all do something else
besides law. One teaches. One rents out bedrooms in his home. One barely
scrapes by waiting for the phone to ring, and hoping the person will accept
$400/hr.? One got a real estate brokers license.(you don't need any prior
experience if you passed the bar.)

I think it will just take time for the profession to realize they will
probally not make what other generations made.

I do think there's a huge need for reasonably priced lawyers. Something
between Nolo Press and $400 hr.? Some areas of law are pretty straight
foreword. If a person without many assets(expensive home--mainly), and just
has unsecured debt; a straight chapter 7 is something a lawyer could
guarantee.(As long as the client is completely honest?) I'm surprised more
don't advertise in that light--instead of hiding their work in mystery.

To any lawyer who tries to scare a client into paying whatever--the climate
has changed. We know a little more than we did before the Internet, and Nolo.
At least in civil matters.

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forinti
We've had this problem in Brazil for quite a while. It persists, I think,
because of the large salaries that some public careers offer. People would be
better off working as plumbers or electricians (huge demand for those jobs at
the moment), but there's also the need for social recognition which, it seems,
is more important than money for some people (who have not realised they wil
get neither).

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laurentsabbah
The world is changing...even here in Israel, without any debt, salaries for
law school graduates are extremely low and it is very hard to land a job even
at that, a real struggle. On another note, the hi-tech and startup jobs are
extremely good, huge demand, good salaries.

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CurtMonash
Irony not called out in the article: Despite poor job prospects for law school
graduates, LSAT tutoring still pays well.

~~~
graeme
I'm in this industry. Two comments.

First, if you are going to law school, the ROI of a better LSAT score is
astounding. Likely $200000 in scholarships and then who knows how much in
future earnings. That is what justifies the high fees.

But second, the market for LSAT tutors has actually shrunk dramatically. It's
been cannibalized by an explosion in free/affordable online resources that are
as good or better than a tutor.

I know johnathan, the tutor in the article. He has his own platform that
generates clients. It's very, very hard to be an LSAT tutor now if you don't
have that. Only the visible minority can consistently charge $100+ an hour ar
enough volume to do it full time.

For anyone curious about these online resources, the main company in the field
is 7sage. They've done the most to destroy demand for tutoring (this is a good
thing!). They have free explanations for the logic games section. This used to
be what everyone asked tutors about. Now almost no one wants logic games help.

While I do tutoring, I mostly focus on products and on creating
free/inexpensive resources. This is my own contribution to eliminating the
need for people like me:
[http://lsathacks.com/explanations/](http://lsathacks.com/explanations/)

(They're free explanations for a bunch of LSAT practice tests.)

~~~
Wingman4l7
Very brave of you to voluntarily contribute to your own profession's demise by
helping to provide auto-didactic services.

~~~
graeme
I used slightly equivocal language. The tutoring part of me has less demand.
But I sell products too, and those do alright.

I think society is better off for having free/inexpensive products addressing
this need, rather than many expensive tutors.

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brudgers
The starting salaries of Law School Graduates in the US has become distinctly
bimodal:

[http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib](http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib)

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breitling
Many have predicted for a while now that the next big crisis will be the
default of student loans (approximated at over $1 Trillion). Perhaps the Law
profession will lead the way, but there must be many other professions where
people are getting degrees but not jobs. After-all, it takes a lot of people
to accumulate $1 Trillion in debt.

~~~
StillBored
But, in the US you can't "default" on student loans, they just keep accruing
until the government starts to take it out of your social security payments.

My step father is close to being in this situation, he went to medical school
in his late 30's, didn't pay his loans for a couple years, and now nearing his
60's faces the probability that he won't actually manage to pay them off
before he retires.

The one loan you never want to take out is student loans, its total debt
slavery.

~~~
zaccus
You can definitely default on student loans; plenty of people are. You just
can't get them discharged in bankruptcy.

~~~
StillBored
I was trying to differentiate default on a student loan from defaults on
pretty much everything else. I'm not sure your credit card company can block a
professional license or garnish your wages. Plus, as I understand it, its
pretty common for bankruptcy judges to adjust the principal, or remove
fees/unpaid interest from other forms of defaulted debt, when the debt isn't
directly discharged. This is apparently really rare for student loans.

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wahsd
ProTip: Don't go to law school. Society is already awash with lawyers, who,
beyond their functional purpose, quickly represent a corrosive and corrupting
impact on society. Lawyers are like algae, if you don't make sure the
conditions keep it in line, it will bloom and suffocate all life in its self
destructive zeal.

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bruceb
What is needed is law school graduate employment numbers broken down by
undergrad degree.

I would think those who have undergrad in some STEM would be doing better than
those with no technical background.

~~~
grabeh
Why would you think that those with a STEM undergraduate degree would do
better than those with an arts background?

I think you can extract potential benefits from any degree which could serve
you well in practising the law. Take History for example, where you're taking
different interpretations of the past, and concocting arguments in support of
a particular interpretation, which is similar to what you will be doing as a
general litigator.

~~~
mauricemir
One high profile barrister in the UK commented that a good lawyer has some
elements of being a good actor.

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mox1
How come the overabundance of people practicing law has not driven the cost of
lawyer related services down? (Supply and demand makes me assume this would be
happening by now..)

~~~
peterjancelis
The market for legal services is an extreme power law. I used to run an online
arbitration service where I paid arbitrators a fixed $150 for handling a case
and was amazed at the caliber of people that applied.

Former law firm partners, Harvard Law grads who worked on Capitol Hill before,
legal scholars with published books, all of it.

Turns out a tiny number of arbitrators can charge hundreds of dollars per hour
for high value arbitration cases, while the rest just begs for scraps.

~~~
woah
What happened to the service?

~~~
peterjancelis
Arbitration requires either an arbitration clause upfront or a mutual post-
dispute agreement to arbitrate. The latter rarely never happens as cases are
often quite clear or parties don't talk anymore, the former is rare for small
claims where my $300 arbitration made sense.

So it turned out I was begging for scraps too. The only way similar services
survive is by partnering with marketplaces and handling all their disputes.
This leads to kangaroo courts cause the arbitration firm ends up having just a
few large clients (the marketplaces) despite having hundreds or thousands of
cases (the marketplace users).

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HarryHirsch
Before 2008 universities treated law schools as cash cows. It was not uncommon
for a tier-2 or tier-3 school to open up a law school to make some money for
the rest of the place. (Incidentally, the role has now been taken by schools
of pharmacy.)

Where is the interview with a law school dean of a non-top-10-school, i.e.
with a person who continues to perpetuate the misery?

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burnte
I'm slowly working my way through school again in my mid-30s to go to law
school, although so many lawyer friends have advised against it due to an
overcrowded marketplace. I really haven't yet decided if I'll actually do it
due to such horrid numbers...

~~~
M8
Consider reading this:

[http://www.amazon.com/Worthless-Young-Persons-
Indispensable-...](http://www.amazon.com/Worthless-Young-Persons-
Indispensable-Choosing/dp/1467978302)

Or at least watch some of his videos about degrees, e.g.:

"Before You Get Your MBA or Law Degree"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNQqXyfsye0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNQqXyfsye0)

~~~
panglott
Wow, that books looks just priceless, almost a parody of the position it
advocates, to judge by the Amazon reviews. English degrees are worthless,
except perhaps if you want to avoid getting dinged by every other reviewer for
your poor writing and grammar.

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acd
Who questions the use of central banks? Their purpose, their market
intervention in setting the price of new money and creating debt?

~~~
ximeng
FX traders, economists, ratings agencies

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johnaspden
At last, an explanation for the proverbially low price of legal services!

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ddoolin
Since when was the economy "flourishing" in 2010?

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genericresponse
It was flourishing in 2007 when he started. 2010 graduation minus 3 years.

