
Why didn't you back me up? - myko
https://plus.google.com/108159551615224338529/posts/L4wawXpNt25
======
grandalf
If you (man or woman) work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile to
women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work elsewhere
or try to stop it.

It's surprising how far some men will go if the behavior is tolerated. Often
socially dominant men or those who have some kind of position of authority
will get worse and worse. They will often not address the comments at anyone
in particular but will just say lewd things and talk about sexual topics when
doing so is not invited or warranted, often mixed with humor.

When a joke is told by a person with some authority, the response is typically
laughter, even if the joke was inappropriate. Even those who might otherwise
disapprove tend not to say anything.

Many women are just ambitious enough to ignore it, thinking that such behavior
is in their best career interest (and it may be).

Some people have a knee-jerk negative reaction to feminism, but the important
thing to realize is that when you are a woman you have to constantly turn down
sex and sexual interest from males. This is true 100x for attractive women.
When coupled with organizational power dynamics this is a very serious issue
because it causes the victims extra stress and is bullying and unfair.

To generalize, don't ever hire or work with anyone you'd characterize as a
bully.

~~~
downandout
_> If you (man or woman) work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile
to women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work
elsewhere or try to stop it._

This is true. However, _this incident_ \- by itself - isn't evidence of a
"culture that is harassing/hostile to women" at Google. All I see in _this
incident_ is evidence of a single employee, making a single inappropriate
comment, with an over-the-top, attention seeking reaction by its recipient.
This is a matter for HR - not for Twitter/Google+.

On the bright side, this is probably the most action that Google+ has seen in
quite a while.

~~~
BrandonM
If you actually read through it all, you'll see that she poured her drink on
him after that ridiculous comment, then _he_ reported _her_ to HR for that.
She got reprimanded, he got promoted.

At least that is what is being alleged. Your comment is pretty insensitive in
that context.

~~~
downandout
_> Your comment is pretty insensitive in that context._

I'm not sure how. He made an an inexcusable comment to her. If she felt this
strongly about it, she should have taken her drink with her to HR -
immediately (or as soon as practical thereafter). She would have been in a
much stronger position at that point. He acted inappropriately, and she
responded inappropriately.

My comment was not intended to deny the possibility of a hostile culture at
Google. My point was that this incident, by itself, doesn't stand up as
evidence of such a culture. Too many people read a single headline and
interpret it as the rule, not the exception.

~~~
lentil_soup
It's insensitive in that your are making a false balance fallacy by equating
his actions with her reaction by saying something like "He acted
inappropriately, and she responded inappropriately". She was sexually
harrassed, her reaction is pretty minor in this discussion.

~~~
downandout
_> her reaction is pretty minor in this discussion_

Let me be clear that I believe this guy to be a jackass - not only for making
the comment, but then having the nerve to officially complain about the drink.
I likely would have terminated him. But by reacting the way she did, she took
away any leverage that she had, and that was reflected in the outcome.

So, no, her reaction isn't "pretty minor in this discussion". It actually had
a huge impact on the negative outcome.

------
rdtsc
This needs to be investigated quickly. We don't know the details. She forced
their hand and they'll have to respond publicly about this. It sounds like a
last resort type action after stonewalling and lack of support.

If this is true, it is very sickening. Often this is talked about in general
terms -- there is sexism, harassment, comments, jokes, etc. out there -- in
the "industry". But in this case there is particular person and particular
incident that took place. Hopefully this is not ignored.

We just recently talked about Adria Richards again (the Pycon incident from a
few years back). And one point I was trying to make regarding that incident
was that it should have been separated from harassment and discrimination
discourse. It was about PR and about a personal agenda. The reason for it, is
because if it is isn't, it hurts and diminishes other future sexual harassment
allegations -- it reduces them to "she is just probably pulling an Adria on
us". Besides the harm caused to all the parties in that controversy, there was
a much larger harm, and that is a future harm to cause of preventing and
rooting out these horrible things.

I have a daughter, and it sickens me that one day should have choose to persue
a career with these companies she would have to deal with this kind stuff. And
if this is true, I somehow didn't expect this from Google. I could see this
happening at an investment firm, at a hospital, at a legal firm but not with
Google, which seemingly go out of their way to tell the world how inclusive,
and non-discriminantory and not evil they are.

~~~
rayiner
> I could see this happening an investment firm, at a hospital, at a _legal
> firm_ but not with Google

Less than 5% of senior VCs, and 5% of F500 CEOs, are women, while more than
20% of F500 general counsel are. Some people are immune, of course, by virtue
of their status, but for most people, it's an environment where you don't want
to develop a reputation. Especially if you're young--1/3 of new large law firm
partners are women in recent years.

I would imagine the situation is similar for medicine too. I can have an
easier time picturing this sort of comment at an investment bank, but these
days even Wall Street is more drug tests than it is hookers and blow.

My experience in both fields is why I think that the gender disparity needs to
be addressed directly, because it is self-perpetuating. An environment where
90% of your bosses and 80% of your coworkers are all men is conducive to a
culture that keeps those skewed ratios in place.

~~~
beaner
Also just the fact that once you hit 53,000 people, you can't really say "I
didn't expect this from X company" as if the company is a single person whose
character is automatically imbued into every employee.

~~~
rdtsc
I say it vis-a-vis the public image that company is presenting. Google for
years reaped the benefits, so to speak, from presenting themselves as
ethically and morally a better entity than others. But now they also have to
reap the criticism due to their perceived hypocrisy.

~~~
beaner
It's all about perception I guess. Even if you have fewer occurrences of it
per X employees (not saying they do - I don't know) and you actually are
better, it's easier to talk about it like it's the new norm.

------
kzhahou
Please don't take this as an excuse for sexual harassment, but:

As a manager, I wouldn't go on a beach/bikini/swimsuit trip with my team, and
certainly not one with large amounts of alcohol (which wasn't necessarily part
of the story posted). So many reasons:

* I don't WANT the people who report to me to see my pale un-muscled body. Or the people above me!

* I don't want to accidentally glance at someone and make them feel uncomfortable.

* I don't want to get so loose and comfortable (cue alcohol) around my team that I forget the role I must play as a leader.

I recently declined the opportunity to go on a boat beer bash, just to
maintain the proper professional relationship (and these were peers in the
org).

~~~
geofft
There is an excellent argument to be made that the prevalence of alcohol in
American work culture is weird and stupid. Partly because it fuels sexual
harassment, partly because it pressures people who don't or can't drink, and
partly because really, the purpose of alcohol in a social context is to
suspend your self-control at least a little bit, why would you want that _at
work_?

Relatedly, see also [https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-
culture...](https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-
culture-29ea1546e91d)

~~~
meowface
Not saying you're right or wrong, but aren't there dozens of cultures across
the world where where alcohol plays a much, much bigger role in work culture?
The UK and Japan, for example.

~~~
geofft
Yeah, "US" is just what I'm familiar with and what the topic of the story is.
I wanted to be precise (because people do rightly criticize folks who complain
about US-only culture problems as if they're universal) but was too precise.
:)

------
myko
Quite a long thread but holy crap, this behavior and what is described on
Kelly's twitter feed
([https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok](https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok)) are
sickening.

Quite shocked that this is considered acceptable at such high levels at
Google.

~~~
nostrademons
Yonatan Zunger's comment on the G+ post is illuminating:

"Damned straight, I wouldn't. But at this point numerous legal issues kick in
so I can't say anything further in public, including any of the obscenities
I'm thinking right now.﻿"

My read on that is that he _doesn 't_ consider it acceptable, but any public
show of support or acknowledgment that the incidents in question occurred
would be construed as an admission of guilt by Google, which would open them
up to a sexual harassment lawsuit. So ironically, the same laws that are
designed to protect women in the workforce strip them of support from anyone
who is a high-ranking official in the company that employs them.

I wouldn't be surprised if the eng director in question got a private
reprimand, but doing anything career-affecting (like removing him from a
management chain, or firing him) requires significant documentation of a
pattern of behavior...which is hard to generate when his accusers (quite
understandably) leave the company.

~~~
detcader
What would be the consequences to Zunger if he did elaborate? Why _must_ he
protect Google from a lawsuit?

~~~
nostrademons
He doesn't have to on a personal level, but on a professional level, he is an
agent of the company and must act in the company's best interests. If he
doesn't, he's not doing his job and can be fired.

The irony is that if you escalated to _Larry_ I bet he'd think that the quotes
documented here are appalling - and his hands would still be tied. Because he
has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of Google Inc, and it is not in their
interests to get sued by an employee. Which again goes to show how dumb the
idea of "maximizing shareholder value" is, but then, it's the environment we
live under.

~~~
MichaelGG
I really doubt that anyone's hands are actually tied. He could say whatever he
wants, like how it's totally unacceptable and anyone acting like that should
be dismissed. He could easily say it's in the company's interest because it
shows Google stands up for women, which is good for Google's image and talent
recruiting.

That's why when people pull out "maximizing shareholder value", I think
they're quite exaggerating on what that entails. I'd be surprised if any laws
or penalties apply to normal operating judgements. It's gotta be more for
scenarios like a company selling a subsidiary at below-market price, or
obviously negative-financial stuff like that.

~~~
detcader
Thanks, this is exactly what I was getting at. I don't know why every hour and
day he delays is not an indictment on his character; maybe he is tied in ways
I don't know, but if not, why isn't he acting?

------
kelukelugames
Just a couple of links and quotes from the EEOC. TLDR: Harassment at a work
retreat is still harassment. One inappropriate comment is usually not enough
from a legal point of view. She is protected from retaliation.

[http://eeoc.gov/laws/practices/index.cfm](http://eeoc.gov/laws/practices/index.cfm)

"Harassment outside of the workplace may also be illegal if there is a link
with the workplace. For example, if a supervisor harasses an employee while
driving the employee to a meeting."

[http://eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm](http://eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm)

"Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or
isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is
so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment
or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being
fired or demoted)."

[http://eeoc.gov/laws/types/retaliation.cfm](http://eeoc.gov/laws/types/retaliation.cfm)

All of the laws we enforce make it illegal to fire, demote, harass, or
otherwise “retaliate” against people (applicants or employees) because they
filed a charge of discrimination, because they complained to their employer or
other covered entity about discrimination on the job, or because they
participated in an employment discrimination proceeding (such as an
investigation or lawsuit).

~~~
A_COMPUTER
She was reprimanded for accusing the person directly, in front of other
employees. Huge difference and I can't see the EEOC covering that.

------
kurtisan
I'm glad that Kelly Ellis chose to include a direct quote from Rod Chavez.
Without any additional context, it definitely looks very harassing, and he
should be fired for it. That said, some of the stuff she's written in the past
is over-the-top radical (from [https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-
myself-714e6dc47...](https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-
myself-714e6dc47c18)):

 _If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work,
when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple. You are
threatening. And you need to leave me the fuck alone._

I hope this isn't another Adria Richards, Virginia Tech, or Duke Lacrosse
situation. I wouldn't necessarily characterize what Vic Gundotra said as
harassing, either the compliment or the Sasha Grey comment. Sasha Grey was
absolutely hot-as-in-buzz, which would be relevant to someone working on
Google+. I'd like to hear the other side of the story before stoning these
guys, given the propensity some women have for playing up their victim status
to self-promote in the media. That Kelly characterizes herself as a "bitch
software engineer, doing what I can to smash the patriarcy", really drives
this home. It would be a shame if these men's careers are destroyed for
anything less than a whole-truth. Kelly certainly seems predisposed to view
any slight as the result of her gender, and any comment that could be
construed inappropriate as inappropriate. It would be a true tragedy if men
disengaged from female peers and reports out of a fear of career destruction,
even from the smallest gaffe, in the same way that many have shied away from
interacting with children.

~~~
bhayden
I don't think a desire to be left alone is radical. Most women desire this,
they don't want strangers coming up and talking to them when they're stuck on
a train/bus where there's no option to leave. A simple "hi" is the limit of
social interaction you should try to push on a stranger in this situation.

~~~
mekoka
I've heard women complaining for the exact opposite. Men not brave enough to
engage with them casually. I guess it depends if the man looks like George
Clooney.

~~~
bhayden
That's pretty much it. It's creepy and harassment if a regular guy approaches
them. It's what they want if the guy is attractive and she's in the right
location. There's no way to know if they find you attractive so it's always
harassment from the guy's perspective.

------
Nursie
This seems pretty damn unacceptable.

I'm sick of working with overgrown children in our industry, who can't behave
like reasonable human beings around women. It's just wrong.

I'm also sick of all-male teams put together by male managers who have decided
women can't do this work.

Grow up. Drop the prejudice. We'll all be better off.

~~~
CyberDildonics
Those seem like pretty large generalizations for someone telling others to
drop prejudice.

~~~
Nursie
I've worked in a dozen or so places in three countries. In my experience it's
commonplace. Hence why I expressed that I am sick of it. If you haven't come
across this at all then IMHO you're very lucky and perhaps you'd like to share
the names of your enlightened employers?

~~~
CyberDildonics
What is the common factor in all these destructive relationships with co-
workers over so many different companies and environments?

------
powertower
On her twitter page she describes herself as:

 _Kelly Ellis - "bitchy software engineer. doing what i can to smash the
patriarchy."_

I'd really like to know the context of the quoted "harassment" statement, if
this was at work or during drinks afterwards, if it was a badly timed joke, a
badly worded praise for fixing an issue, if this just happened once, or
multiple times. And the reason for making this public...

Before I start publicly crucifying anyone and removing them from all future
gainful employment.

Harassment is repetitive pressure or intimidation. Not a once off joke made by
a person because he though they where getting together well and he brought
down his guard for a second.

~~~
bsaul
Had the exact same reaction, but you've got to read the whole twitter stream
to realize that this is maybe a global management issue, and not just one guy.

She did complain to her bosses, that did nothing, and the guy clearly isn't
the only one to make those kind of remarks in the company.

~~~
powertower
From what I've been able to put together, she posted all the instances of the
alleged "harassment", which consists of the quoted comment, and this one (made
by another Google employee) -

 _" You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star."_

It also seems like both statements where made years apart, and possibly
happened after work.

And one of the accused persons already has made the statement that he had
little to no contact with her aside from being in the same org.

~~~
bsaul
It seemed to me like a general atmosphere very male oriented, which she felt
very akward with ( eg the comment about the pornstar). But the fact that she
complained to HR and that as a consequence she ended up feeling like she had
to leave makes me think there could be an issue.

Although as a european, of course all of this debate seems very American (
except maybe the ass grabbing part, which could only have been excused if
under influence).

~~~
vidarh
> But the fact that she complained to HR and that as a consequence she ended
> up feeling like she had to leave makes me think there could be an issue.

There may very well be an issue, but note that you are now repeating an
unsubstantiated allegation and describing it as fact.

 _If_ what she wrote is accurate and factual, and they very well may be, then
at least the director in question likely went far over the line, regardless of
context, and there may very well be issues with the general culture too.

But we have a few tweets, and don't have the other side.

------
foobarqux
Can someone summarize what is alleged to have happened, including names of
those involved? It's a pain to piece together all the fragments of
information.

------
A_COMPUTER
Maybe companies need to just stop having retreats/events that have all the
outward appearance of social gatherings but all the same professionalism rules
as the officeplace except for the not wearing a swimsuit to work part.

~~~
detcader
Do you believe that prohibition of sexual harassment is a "professionalism
rule"? Because this would imply that in other areas of everyday life, where
professionalism is not relevant, you believe that sexual harassment is/should
be permitted.

~~~
A_COMPUTER
I guess this needs explaining. An employee might sexually harass another
employee, for which he or she should be punished. But a company can also be
liable for creating conditions which allow sexual harassment to flourish. I am
arguing that hosting events that blur the line between work and not-work
contribute to sexual harassment. These things are not as black and white as
some people on Hacker News think they are. Also, you're begging the question.
Outside of a professional setting, telling someone they look good in a bikini
being sexual harassment is HIGHLY dependent on context.

~~~
detcader
Does "telling someone they look good in a bikini" characterize the situation
at hand? I really don't think so.

I think it would be hard to categorize social events as potentially creating a
bad environment or not. A different solution would be explicit rules for all
social events, no? This would be easy to implement.

~~~
A_COMPUTER
I used that example because it is the lower bounds (in terms of offensiveness)
of the claims made by the complainant. She obviously felt it was a problem.

------
mkaziz
I would like to hear the man's side of it. Is it bad to ask that? Would I be
vilified for not trusting the woman?

~~~
detcader
I don't know about vilified. I would ask why you don't trust the woman, and do
trust the man, given the historical record.

~~~
sridca
Why frame all of this in terms of 'trust'? Must you trust either of the
genders? Why not look at the facts of the matter? For that, you need to start
by looking at both sides of the story instead of taking sides.

~~~
detcader
The rich historical record of male violence against women is why.

~~~
tbrownaw
Very funny. It took less than 5 minutes to confirm that the violence goes the
_other_ way at least half the time. It's just not taken as seriously
because... well, have you heard the phrase "you hit like a girl"?

[http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid...](http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=2000-15524-001)

[http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-
than-...](http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-
victims-of-partner-abuse/)

[https://www.google.com/search?q=domestic+violence+gender+rat...](https://www.google.com/search?q=domestic+violence+gender+ratio)

[http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=domestic+violence+gender...](http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=domestic+violence+gender+ratio)

~~~
spopejoy
Wow, it took less than 5 minutes to find random internet justification for
your wildly unrealistic notion. Bravo sir on your googling skills.

------
chuckup
She then added "full disclosure. I'm not proud, I poured a drink on him. It
became about that."

[http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/03/07/former-
google-e...](http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/03/07/former-google-
engineer-claims-she-was-sexually-harassed-google-did-nothing-about-it)

------
jpgvm
The only thing I have learnt from this and the Adria Richards nonsense is when
I am hiring I will screen for radical feminism.

Too risky to hire, even if I feel my workplace shouldn't have anything that
would set them off it's still too risky.

~~~
zo1
It's an unfortunate side-effect of there being so few women in tech. You're
semi-forced into hiring potentially toxic personalities so you can keep up
your 'quota'.

------
thret
I kept thinking there was more to this story, but this article makes it plain
that there isn't: [http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/03/07/former-
google-e...](http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/03/07/former-google-
engineer-claims-she-was-sexually-harassed-google-did-nothing-about-it)

Lines that you use on women in clubs should not be used with co-workers.
That's the lesson here basically. I doubt either of those guys had any inkling
they were causing emotional trauma.

~~~
cpncrunch
Also, it sounds like Google might have screwed up in their handling of the
situation. The guy should have gotten some kind of reprimand. I suspect the
current Google employees won't be happy about how this has been handled, and
will force management to do something. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an
internal investigation.

If Google HR had handled this properly in the first place, Kelly would still
be working there, everyone would be happy, and this would never have become a
news story.

------
im3w1l
I don't really feel like chasing down and piecing together hundreds of tweets
to understand what happened here. Anyone who did it mind giving the whole
story?

~~~
darklajid
My favorite? This idiot right here:

[https://twitter.com/AndrewMDodson](https://twitter.com/AndrewMDodson)

Really. I .. ignore his profile description for now. Read the links to Kelly's
tweets and look out for this gem. He's a master of being an asshole, but among
lots of peers.

If you're in the mood: Get back to the link above, read his self-description
and .. cackle. I mean.. What?

(I might fall for a troll account, because .. I have a hard time believing
that someone is that far removed from reality)

~~~
bigdubs
No he's serious and there really are people like him out there.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Plenty of dudes like that in this thread as well.

------
fred_is_fred
I want to make this very very clear to everyone, especially young coders new
to the corporate world. HR is not there to protect you. They are there to
protect the company. And in 99.9% of the cases they will always support the
ones higher up in the corporate structure, managers, and especially senior
VPs. Does that excuse all this? Certainly not, but I'm completely unsurprised
that HR didn't do anything about this.

~~~
njloof
Sounds to me like HR did not even protect the company here.

------
honksillet
So every time there is an HR dispute it is news worthy? Let the lawyers settle
this.

~~~
Serplat
This story appears to go beyond a simple HR dispute, but is endemic of a
culture all too common in our industry that we should have zero tolerance of
and should work to undermine. It appears that not only were inappropriate
statements made, but other high-ups at Google weren't willing to stand up for
what's right. Considering this happened at an employer of many readers on this
site who may have additional insights or stories to add, I think it's
perfectly reasonable to have posted here.

~~~
tomek_zemla
Exactly. It would be interesting to hear from some Google employees here, both
men and women, about their good or bad sexism related experiences at the
company.

------
cvs268
Off-topic: Going over the 100 or so comments over the pas 30mins was dare i
say entertaining. It took me a few mins of self-reflection after i finished
reading this on HN and thought - Why am i feeling happy after reading this?

This discussion has all the elements of a hit reality tv show. A victim, an
aggressor, opinion extremists on either side, moderators on the fence.

I despise reality tv shows and make it a point not to watch them or read about
the latest "incident" on show X etc. Now i cannot stop feeling that reading
this discussion has broken my >1year-long streak of avoiding reality shows.

~~~
detcader
Believing women about male violence they have experience is not "extreme",
given the historical record and the facts of statistics.

I would say that you know this already.

------
leereeves
Some of the more significant tweets:

" At Google I was sexually harassed by someone who was later promoted to
director

I was put in a position where I couldn't be promoted because it would've meant
reporting to my harasser

I was actually reprimanded for undermining him in front of his reports.

Google caring about women is 100% lip service PR bullshit.

When it comes down to it, they punish victims and reward the perpetrators.
COME AT ME BRO

People above his level knew; reprimanded me instead of him.

...

Full disclosure. I'm not proud. I poured a drink on him. It became about that

Things other women have said to me: "he is a legal liability for Google"

They 100% supported him, let me be in a position where I couldn't be promoted.
My career was ended in that moment. Yet I got in trouble

...

[name redacted] is an engineering director at Google, he sexually harassed me,
Google did nothing about it. Reprimanded me instead of him

...

TBH [different name redacted] has always been a creep and a half too. This
will surprise no one who's worked with him.

Thanks for all the bathing suit compliments over the years, [name].

...

"It's taking all of my self control not to grab your ass right now." -My
boss's boss, to me, when I was a junior eng at Google.

"You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." \- [name redacted],
to me, when I was a junior engineer at Google. In Maui.

Drinks after work with powerful men. Being the only woman there. Feeling
uncomfortable with what some of them were saying. Crying about it.

Not wanting to say anything because having those social relationships were
helpful to me, my visibility, my career. It's such a boys' club.

...

"He feels like you humiliated him in front of his reports." Something HR
actually fucking said to me.

...

Of course, whenever anyone said something that made me uncomfortable, I had to
laugh it off. None of this is stuff I ever talked to HR about

...

[name redacted] to [name redacted] within earshot of me, on a boat in Maui:
"doesn't Kelly look amazing heh heh"

...

After hours, having drinks with Vic and the gang. Vic talking about how G+ was
promoting Sasha Grey. Starts talking about how hot she is.

Asks if people've seen her movies. At this point I run away and cry because I
felt so outcast. This is just one example of many

The harassment "training" at Goog? Mostly about not getting in trouble.
Nothing about respecting humanity of your peers. "

------
aceperry
I would love to be a fly on the wall to see how this discussion is taking
place at Google. This is especially relevant now that Google is hosting a
Women Techmakers event for International Women's Day.

------
thomasahle
It's so strange reading this thread. Everybody seems to know each other. I
wonder if something like this happened at my workplace, if the discussion
would also go public like this..

------
JDiculous
What's the context of the statement? For all we know, it could've been an
offhand joke by a drunk co-worker at a happy hour while the two were flirting.

~~~
minimaxir
[https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574069743134486528](https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574069743134486528)

There is no context where that would be appropriate.

~~~
marak830
Yes there is. If they were drinking and saying they were attracted to one
another. If they were lovers and hiding it infront of co workers.

Wr dont know the context , and while i agree it doesnt sound that way, it may
be explainable.

Its more likely some douche with beer in him and should be fired, but there is
a case where that comment is appropriate.

~~~
clavalle
Yeah, if either of those were the case, we'd never hear about it, would we?
She felt sufficiently disturbed to call him out.

I take a pretty skeptical 'two sides to every story' stance on many of these
kinds of reports but I can't think of any context given what's happened that
this Director's actions toward an employee would be anywhere near appropriate.
It is not even close. Unless she is a liar and pulling this out of thin air
(and there is no reason I know of to think so) this is a serious breach.

~~~
marak830
I certainly agree, i just dont like the idea that this sort of comment is
never appropriate. Hell ive said something siilar to that to my wife on
occasion.

------
dogma1138
Since when did Twitter became the platform the lunge civil or criminal
complaints against some one?

When you use "social media" in such manner there is only one goal for this and
it's to turn the media fed sheep herd into the judge, jury and executioner.

If any one is harassed at work make a complaint with HR, they don't do shit,
then escalate it to which ever authority manages this in the state (and I'm
100% sure there is one even tho it's not the "civilized union of socialists
states" AKA Europe).

If that doesn't work and you feel like you are being derailed sue them, I'm
pretty sure that there will be a 1000 lawyers willing to take your case for a
chance of a payout a tech giant of the scale of Google will have to cough out
even if the complaint is completely bogus.

However I have no sympathy for people who use these types of platforms to
settle disputes or to report wrong doing even in such cases in which they were
actually harassed. I do hope she, and any one else man, woman, or other that
uses such tactics to get what they want gets fired.

But heck as long as we using verbatim - "bitchy software engineer. doing what
i can to smash the patriarchy." rock on "bitch"!

~~~
enraged_camel
>>If any one is harassed at work make a complaint with HR

I agree with you in general, but no, please don't do this. The reason has been
discussed many times on HN. Basically, HR is not your friend. They aren't a
"mommy" or "daddy" figure that you can complain to when someone mistreats you.
Their primary job is to protect the company from troublemaker employees - such
as those who file complaints about their coworkers. If you report a coworker,
especially for a potentially litigious thing like harassment, HR will nod and
assure you that they will handle it, but secretly think "this guy is a walking
lawsuit" and find a seemingly unrelated reason to terminate you (or make you
leave).

I only talk to HR for administrative stuff, such as benefits paperwork and
other such trivia. I advise everyone do the same.

~~~
dogma1138
In Europe, or at least in the UK many companies have actual "external"
companies that manage harassment cases.

I can't speak for Google or US law for that matter, but I'm pretty sure that
there are enough options to get this matter settled without getting fired if
the case is just. And if not you are fighting the wrong battles, if the laws
and policies of such companies in the states do not provide an actual safe
environment to make complaints then that's the battle you should be waging.

------
detcader
I believe her, and I believe by the historical record that her male harasser
incapable of being a "director" of people, that is, the word "people" defined
to include women.

------
jqm
This guy sounds like a major league twerp. And frankly, reading Kelley's
twitter profile, so does she.

I would look into this to determine who I thought was more at fault, but
really, twerp soap operas aren't my thing.

I don't know which I dislike more. Guys that act like asshats, or ladies that
put up with it as long as they think it's getting them somewhere then scream
bloody murder when it isn't anymore. Or maybe articles written about the
subject. Or comments taking the sides of any one particular twerp. It's a toss
up I guess.

------
marczellm
[https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954](https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954)

A compliment alone should not constitute sexual harassment, that would be
total madness. However with the other stories she tells I understand why she
included this.

Nevertheless this got me thinking: could we consider overly sexy looks a form
of harassment too? (Unrelated to the specific story; I'm sure she didn't
intentionally try to attract her bosses' attention.)

As a male, the mere presence of an overly sexy woman can put me in a state
similar to fear: rising heart rate, mild trembling, goosebumps, inability to
concentrate on whatever I was doing (talking to someone or doing work) etc.

~~~
afarrell
I have a pair of pants that I bought from a friends' startup which are, um,
well-fitting enough that my wife has told me:

1) they're her favorite pair of my pants.

2) wearing them at work might be sexual harassment.

The manufacturer brands themselves as professional, so it's not like I'm
trying to do a David Bowie impression. They're very comfortable and look nice,
so I'd prefer to keep wearing them unless they're actually improper. Is there
a good way to definitively determine this without asking awkward questions of
the women in my office?

~~~
kennywinker
Ask your wife if she would be ok with you wearing them to dinner with her
parents.

------
alsdifu3
I doubt this is a male/female issue. This manager most likely lacks respect
for all people.

~~~
teraflop
Yeah, I'm sure he would have been just as likely to say "It's taking all of my
self control not to grab your ass right now" to a dude, right?

~~~
alsdifu3
You're a moron. It's possible for a man to disrespect a man.

~~~
teraflop
I agree with your second point and disagree with your first one. I don't see
how either is a rebuttal to what I wrote, though.

------
eirteep
It is pretty amazing that we've taken computing, a field that has
traditionally been a refuge of social outcasts, and turned it into an
environment where being a tactless creep is outrage worthy.

~~~
rwbcxrz
> social outcast

> tactless creep

What does either of these have to do with the other? I don't think social
outcast implies tactless creep, and unfortunately, tactless creep clearly
doesn't imply social outcast.

~~~
eirteep
You're setting up a straw man of equivalence.

> I don't think social outcast implies tactless creep

Of course, because there is more than one way to lack social skills.

> tactless creep clearly doesn't imply social outcast

Outcasts go on to form their own organizations (eg Google). Someone can
progress to fit in reasonably, but that doesn't mean they're completely normal
(in this instance, hitting on someone who is not interested).

------
FaisalRashid
Well, that is bad!

------
nperez
NOT a good sign when his Google+ profile publicly contains photos like this
(NSFW):
[https://plus.google.com/+RoderickChavez/photos/photo/5184662...](https://plus.google.com/+RoderickChavez/photos/photo/5184662201460305938?pid=5184662201460305938&oid=102273535472013532291)

Definitely a creeper.

~~~
tbrownaw
Depends. If that's a random coworker who wasn't expecting that, then yeah. If
it's... say... an S/O he's doing home improvement projects with (the
impression I get from the rest of the album it's in), not so much.

Of course, you'd think someone working at Google would have a better
understanding of how the G+ privacy settings work (and of the dangerous
capriciousness of the Internet)...

~~~
nperez
True, the content itself isn't necessarily malicious in nature, but the way
you present yourself publicly says a lot about your personality (or at least,
how I will perceive it). I didn't consider the possibility that maybe he
doesn't understand privacy settings, which would be pretty odd for a director
of engineering.

------
zobzu
You know the problem with these claims is that you never know what actually
happened. I find that quite often these threads just reinforce the hate and
blindness in people - it doesn't fix anything.

You get called out for kindly offering a woman coffee when you're making yours
at the machine. Offering it to a man is ok. Being a woman offering it to a
man, the man will looked at as if he's manipulated her to do that. That's
fucked up.

This is very bay-area specific, and it's quite toxic.

When you see something that is obviously wrong, or know the facts, do act.
Make it stop.

When you don't, be curious - instead of hating with passion. Remember that
people are actually innocent until proven guilty. Even if it's cool to hate
(specially white males). Otherwise, it destroys you and the very things you're
fighting for. Every single time.

~~~
detcader
I believe her, which means I believe I know what happened. It is you who is
electing to entertain the possibility that she is lying.

~~~
zobzu
You _believe_.

And that's exactly why people died for principles such as innocent until
proven guilty. Regardless of the cause. Heck, if people didn't _believe_ stuff
at random we'd have far less wars.

------
jheriko
Why do you need back up? Why couldn't you deal with it at the time?

Its a shame perhaps that men and women are not typically given the same
upbringing, or have the same natural tendencies, when it comes to
confrontation.

Not doing anything about it at the time, then moaning about it after the fact,
as a man, is social suicide - its cowardly and makes you look weak.

As a woman these same behaviours are lauded as self control and intelligence -
and the opposite, as being reactionary and thoughtless. You may be labelled as
bossy, a control freak or worse...

Neither of these attitudes is quite right... however I do think that people
need to stick up for themselves. Don't expect any back up and fight your own
corner... but then I am a man, and this is our default attitude. 'being a man'
very much means being strong, independent, self-reliant and unassailable...
without asking for attention or rewards for doing so. I'm not sure why women
shouldn't be encouraged to do the same - these are imo objectively good
properties of a successful human being, regardless of gender.

~~~
detcader
>"Not doing anything about it at the time"

For starters, were you there when the events were taking place?

~~~
jheriko
good point. i just assume this based on the moaning happening after the
fact...

~~~
detcader
Why do you use the word "moaning"?

~~~
jheriko
> Ellis recognized that the proper channels were stacked against her, clearly.

My experience makes this very hard to believe. If that is the case then that
should be the topic of complaint, not the individual's actions, and especially
in a way so lacking in context and detail.

In the context of the workplace this sort of behaviour is bad, not just for
the individual, but for the company. I find it very hard to believe that
Google would do nothing about it. of course this is just belief. If they are
willing to act in support of this kind of inappropriate behaviour then the
company should quite rightly get a slamming for it...

Part of modern society is not taking the law into your own hands, whether that
is giving someone a whack for being a jerk, or making a big public stink about
it. I find it very hard to see this as being any better than punching someone
in the face because you don't like their attitude.

