
The $20 Starbucks Test - ph0rque
http://blog.snootymonkey.com/post/2432103782/the-20-starbucks-test
======
yock
I think I'd be uncomfortable with this not because of approaching random
strangers but rather approaching them with false pretenses. You're essentially
fooling people into listening to your ill-formed business plan by lying to
their face about non-existant siblings in non-existant danger. Whatever
happened to being honest with people?

"Hi. Can I buy you a cup of coffee in exchange for some feedback? Five minutes
is all I want."

People will either blow you off as a scummy salesman or listen to you. You can
sleep well at night with the knowledge that you didn't make someone late to
work by toying with their emotions.

~~~
nollidge
I think even complete strangers will be predisposed to give you positive
feedback if they know it's your idea. If they think it's somebody else's idea,
and you're priming them to think negatively about it, then you'll be more
likely to get the negative opinions you were looking for.

Obviously I'm not addressing the morality of it, just the effectiveness.

~~~
SnootyMonkey
I have ethical qualms about it too. I'm not sure I could get comfortable
enough with them to do it. But you're totally spot on that the negative
priming (he's making risky decisions, upsetting his family) and the distancing
(it's my brother, not me) are very important to the effectiveness. If you say
it's your own idea, and don't prime the pump of negativity, I'd expect
significantly better feedback.

People can't help it. No one likes to say your baby is ugly, or those pants do
indeed make your butt look fat.

------
dantheman
I'm really disappointed with the frequency of posts advocating lying/deception
appearing on HN. Everytime someone lies or takes advantage of someone, it
hurts those who may really have a problem or issue.

If you want honest feedback then by all means ask people and they'll be likely
to help. If for some reason they don't, maybe you'll have to compensate them
more. They may give you a discount because you said it was an emergency, just
as restaurant may give someone down on his luck free food. Or a motorist may
give another free gasoline etc... In normal circumstances, this types of
transactions are paid for - but in a time of distress people understanding
your predicament will give you a discount - they'll help you for free, just as
they would like help in a similar situation.

Anyway - being dishonest is wrong, and you shouldn't do it.

~~~
pavel_lishin
How is this taking advantage of someone?

~~~
mcknz
It's a false emotional appeal. Would you answer a five minute survey for a cup
of coffee? I wouldn't. But I'd spend 5 minutes to help someone.

------
rhizome
I call this "a hobo technique." Imply you have a serious situation in that
your worried about your "brother," where I would initially think, "cancer? do
you want to use my cellphone?, then use my sympathy to segue into "see, he's
got this business idea..."

It's extremely rare that a stranger has a need for more than 15 seconds of
focussed conversation, and abusing this rarity I would think is quite rude.

Plus, you're lying.

I would give the manipulative sociopath his dollar for the coffee and walk
away.

------
brk
While well intentioned, I sorta think this idea sucks. Maybe it's just me, but
random strangers with business ideas approaching me in public would
immediately lead me to think "Amway scam" or "clueless businessperson".

I wonder what sorts of people would self-select themselves into accepting this
offer? Also, most people who have tried to launch a product know that random
input from people who are NOT your target users tends to suck.

Now, if I had an idea that seemed specifically geared towards the typical
Starbucks|McDonalds|Home Depot shopper (or HIGHLY consumer oriented), then I
might try this approach.

~~~
dmazin
It seems to me that the point is to avoid missing a glaringly obvious problem
with a project that, while you may be blind to, a random stranger may not.

~~~
brk
I got the point of it, I just think it's horrible execution.

If you have a business idea, and you cannot find a way to solicit honest
feedback from an ad-hoc consumer panel, then you should probably check
yourself.

I don't understand why you need the whole deceptive angle. Go to Starbucks and
approach someone and say "hey... I've got this interesting idea for [a way to
do X better/faster/cheaper]. I'll give you a $5 gift card if you don't mind
spending 15 minutes giving me your honest feedback."

The other fail of the idea was the whole trying to maximize $20 at Starbucks
concept. Many people are going there to get a drink that will likely average
$3 or more. Offering to buy someone a $1.50 black coffee when they came in
wanting a $4.50 latte isn't going to get you off to the right start. Even
spending $100 for 20 $5 gift cards would be cheap feedback, and (IMO) a more
realistic approach.

~~~
dmazin
I don't really think this is very clever, either, but unlike you I can't quite
put my finger on why. Has either the poster or the originator of the idea
really tried to measure the effectiveness of this technique?

Furthermore, why are people in a coffee shop sitting around without coffee,
waiting to be bought a cheap drip drink (as you mention)?

I think the dishonesty makes some sense as people are nice and have a natural
tendency to sugarcoat or outright lie, but I am entirely uncomfortable with
it.

------
trotsky
Unable to come up with a way to vet your idea without wasting a stranger's
time under false pretenses?

------
colanderman
Better idea: pay people on Mechanical Turk 10¢ each to bash your idea. You'll
get 200 people's feedback instead of 5 from the Starbucks. If even only 1 out
of every 30 takes the job seriously, you'll get a better bang for your buck.

~~~
nobody_nowhere
Interesting -- have you done this successfully?

~~~
colanderman
No, but this person has: [http://harperlindsey.com/2010/09/01/how-i-used-
amazons-mecha...](http://harperlindsey.com/2010/09/01/how-i-used-amazons-
mechanical-turk-to-validate-my-startup-idea/)

~~~
nobody_nowhere
cool, thanks!

------
bhudman
The beginning of the conversation sounds like an intro to a Nigerian 419 scam.
I was waiting for "can you transfer some money from my brother" or something
:). Not to mention the fact that I might be booted out if customers feel
uncomfortable.

Enjoyed the article. I do like the point about the rejection therapy.

------
epoxyhockey
Ahhh, the joys of working in silicon valley where it can be assumed that every
individual in Starbucks is going to comprehend you "brother's" start-up idea.

Also, if I tried this method in my local Starbucks, I'd end up interviewing
people just looking for a complimentary cup of coffee.

Kind of reminds me of the Encyclopedia Britannica "get a free thesaurus" promo
where you'd sit through an hour long sales pitch just to be able to say "no
thanks, can I get my free thesaurus?"

~~~
MrFlibble
Free thesauruses were fine but as a kid my father made us sit through 3 hours
of timeshare crap on a family vacation in Hawaii so he could get 2 free cases
of pineapples. We were quite sick of pineapple within a week.

Amazing what we will endure for something free.

------
byteclub
2 points: 1\. Moral issues aside, the key is to get the idea out of your head
and have other people go at it. There is a class of people that can't spend
enough time focused on one project because all these great new ideas keep
coming and coming ("uninformed optimism"). Getting external feedback might
help regulate this process a bit. 2\. Break out of your echo chamber and talk
to complete strangers. I believe the best and most innovative ideas come from
being exposed to all sorts of industries/occupations. Talking to a random
person in a coffee shop could be your way to add serendipity to your meme
pool. (Starbucks in some parts of the country might have some homogeneity in
the customer population when it comes to designers/developers/etc, making it
not the greatest choice, but you get the idea).

In a word: "serendipity"

------
wwortiz
It sounds like an okay idea other than the lying about worrying about your
brother.

I would much rather a person be honest than take up my time while keeping up a
charade about a crazy brother, if someone did this I would probably just tell
them to talk to their brother rather than me.

~~~
SnootyMonkey
The point about using the "brother" is to provide the distance required to
make the stranger feel like they can give truly honest feedback without
hurting your feelings.

~~~
gloob
The parent post said the method was dishonest. You are arguing that it is
useful. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

------
pedalpete
It's always great to get feedback, but if a random stranger is able to point
out flaws in your business plan or product that you weren't able to uncover
through your own thinking, planning, and discussions with friends, partners,
etc. Then I'd say you haven't done your homework.

Some people think your friends will just agree with you so they don't hurt
your feelings, but in my experience that is not the case. But be sure to ask
them to play devils advocate. If all you're getting is positive feedback, tell
them that you don't want to hear about what is great about the idea, that you
know. Ask specifically why they think it won't work.

------
ericflo
Imagine if the Odeo guys had done this with their new Twitter idea.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Yeah, some stranger might have thought for a few minutes and then asked "But
how are they going to make money from it?"

~~~
ericflo
I'll bet you $100 that they end up doing just fine.

------
ry0ohki
I'm not sure I'd want the opinion of someone who is willing to waste their
time talking to a complete stranger on pretenses that seem like an obvious
scam just because they offered to buy them coffee.

------
daimyoyo
There's 2 things wrong with this idea: First is that I really can't see this
approach being much more successful than just being honest and saying "can you
spare 5 minutes? I'll buy your coffee for the trouble." And more importantly,
the overwhelming majority of consumers can't give an unbiased opinion on a
business idea. Especially when you frame the question with your brother being
destitute if the idea fails. 99.99% of the time, people will tell you not to
do it simply because the consequences of failure are so high. Just be honest.
People like free stuff. Just buy them the coffee and they'll be more than
happy to listen to your idea.

------
SpacemanSpiff
"If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster
horse." Attributed to Henry Ford

------
JonnieCache
People have no idea what they want or need, or even what they like. Observe
the following empirical evidence as presented by respected marketer Malcolm
Gladwell:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIiAAhUeR6Y>

Also, that bit about a heart valve is a sly reference to a famous polymath-
type who invented a revolutionary kind of heart valve as just one part of a
long and incredibly varied career. Can anyone remember who this is? Google is
giving me nothing.

------
kleiba
Wait, you can get regular coffee at Starbucks?

------
mmmmax
I wholeheartedly disagree. You can't ask most consumers what they think of an
undeveloped business idea. They don't know what they want.

At a minimum you have to put something visual in front of them, even better if
its a prototype. Check out Rocket Surgery Made Easy
(<http://www.sensible.com/rocketsurgery/index.html>).

------
stretchwithme
I'm not sure being dishonest with people is the way to get an honest response.

Wouldn't it be better if you asked people directly for their opinions about
several ideas and not disclose which one it is that you care about? To get
honest responses, you might ask about several obviously bad ideas to loosen
them up and get them thinking critically.

------
JofArnold
I personally feel the approach recommended here is unethical. However striking
up conversations with random people does have other (different) benefits;

1/ The act of regularly practicing your pitch helps you find holes in the idea
- often indirectly. Sometimes people say something off-topic that can make you
think "damn - I should have considered that"

2/ Due to the "Faster Horse" effect you're unlikely to get decent product
insights - especially with some types of consumer products. However, what you
can do is get very useful insights into the person's pain points: "Why are
they too busy for a competitors product?"; "Does the fact they have family
abroad suggest previously unconsidered business models?" etc

3/ It helps you become more confident - provided you don't lie. Presumably if
you end up only being confident when you lie then before you know what
happened you'll become a scam artist!

------
bhoung
This was exactly the technique employed by a young drug effected person asking
for money who was standing outside the local supermarket. "My mother is
suddenly ill and I need $10 / $20 bucks to get to X." Except the guy doesn't
tell you his startup idea.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Actually this guy is giving away money (well, coffee), not asking for it.

------
djacobs
What's the advantage to this over getting feedback from honest, intelligent
friends?

------
ambitious
Wow, a lot of sensitive people here (and in saying so I expect my comment to
be downvoted into Hades).

Like I mean, come on, he's just demonstrating a way he got new insights into
his product. I think it's a great idea.

Take it with a grain of salt.

~~~
gnaritas
> he's just demonstrating a way he got new insights into his product.

By being dishonest. Being offended by that is not being sensitive, it's being
normal. It's not at all a great idea; it takes advantage of other peoples
emotions with lies. You'd have to be kind of sociopathic to not realize that
isn't cool or acceptable to most people.

~~~
sims
I think you missed the crux of the article. The article is not about
manipulating emotions with lies, it's about getting different opinions and
perspectives on your product.

His method was a little crass, but I'll bet he wrote it with his tongue
planted firmly in his cheek.

------
sandee
Please do not do this

------
bobx11
Most people are no good at business - and you're not filtering out successful
people to give you advice on a business idea. There are meetup.com groups for
entrepreneurs which are usually just people with full time jobs fantasizing
about not working for the man... if you just want to talk to random people I
would say go there instead of interrupting someone when they are getting
coffee in the morning ;)

------
pjy04
This is a similar strategy I used the other night when I asked my strangers to
help fill out a survey. Here's one in a google doc form if anyone wants to
help figure out a good reason to choose one domain over the other.

[https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en&formkey=d...](https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en&formkey=dGQxUWY1cVREX1ZuY1VZZE1zUjlVWlE6MQ#gid=0)

~~~
JofArnold
There really is no contest between those two domains, IMHO ;)

------
trustfundbaby
Just ask people's opinion people! Its not that hard.

Find someone in the cafe that looks like they fit your target demographic and
isn't too busy. Put a smile on your face, walk up to them and say

"Hi ... my name is xxxx, I was wondering if you could help me figure out some
possible problems with this business idea I've got. And no ... I promise I'm
not going to try to sell you anything"

Smile again. Rinse, repeat and refine as necessary.

------
EGreg
This is bollocks. I usually tell people what I'm working on, during casual
conversation. I then ask them if they'd use it. I don't need false pretenses.
I just need to know the likelihood a person, given experience A, would take
action B. And I make it interesting for them.

------
bhousel
Save yourself some money and embarrassment and just do the same thing on
Mechanical Turk..

------
wiseleo
Make a T-shirt talking about your product. "Ask me for a demo, right now (yep,
at this Starbucks)". See how many people take you up on your offer. :)

Haven't tested this, but I will soon. :)

------
JoeAltmaier
Ok, enough about the lying. Trivial spin on the technique: get a buddy to do
it. Now he's telling the truth, about You.

