
Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth - vinnyglennon
http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/09/mecca-then-and-now-128-years-of-growth/408013/?single_page=true
======
tboyd47
One thing I like to reflect on when seeing this pictures is the vast
difference in the number of people present at the hajj. It's truly orders of
magnitude more.

This huge increase in pilgrims over the last century is because of new
technology like air travel, and the peace the world has experienced over the
past few decades that allows people to move freely across the world. But it is
due to the efforts of the Saudis to expand the masjid, build camps at Mina,
allow hotels to be constructed, modernize the facilities, etc. that every
person is able to actually perform the rites of hajj at the proper times. Hajj
consists of a number of rites that have to be performed in certain places at
certain times on certain days. Think about what it takes to organize millions
of people trying to do this. It's very different than organizing thousands, or
tens of thousands. You have to accommodate all their sleeping arrangements.
You have to provide enough space for marketplaces so they can get something to
eat. You have to widen the roads, air condition the facilities, make sure each
group leaves at their own time, etc.

It's true that the Saudis aren't perfect, and they make mistakes, but my point
is that it's easy to get the impression from the massive construction projects
that they are just trying to make another Dubai or Olympics. But really, there
is a spiritual purpose behind it, not connected to money, and there is also a
lot going on behind the scenes that you can't see in the pictures. It would be
easier for the Saudis to just restrict the visas to a tiny fraction and not go
through with all of the construction and organizing, but they are making the
effort as you can see. I know this is not going to be a popular comment here
but I'm just trying to offset all the negative comments with some positive.

~~~
yawz
> "not connected to money..."

Kaaba has always been about trade/commerce/money, since well before Muhammad
and Islam.

It is not a coincidence that Muhammad's tribe had the control of Kaaba where
pagan pilgrims came before Islam to revere their many gods (whose
representations (statues, icons, figures, etc.) were placed around Kaaba).
And, very conveniently, it remained to be a holy place in Islam where each and
every Muslim who can afford it must visit at least once during their lifetime.

~~~
azth
The Ka'bah was (re-)built by Abraham and his son, who were Muslims (i.e.
Submitters). The fact that there was polytheistic practices around it at some
point in time does not change the fact that it is a place of worship for
Muslims.

~~~
yawz
> The Ka'bah was (re-)built by Abraham and his son...

That is mythological not truly historical.

~~~
azth
Citation needed.

In any case, even the non-Muslim Arabs at the time also acknowledged this
fact. As such, given that Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, is a descendant
of Abraham, Peace be upon him, and both are Muslims, it follows that they
would have similar traditions, coming from the same source. Reclaiming the
Ka'abah as a place of worship for Muslims is in accordance with this.

~~~
yawz
A myth is an attempt to explain mysteries, supernatural events, and cultural
traditions. Sometimes sacred in nature, a myth can involve gods or other
supernatural creatures.

The fact that the same sources that assert the existence of figures such as
Abraham and Ishmael also state that an angel talked to Ishmael's pregnant
mother and that the Sakina (a spirit sent by God) or Gabriel guided father and
son to the location of the Kaaba, etc. make this story mythical.

~~~
azth
Edit: I see your point, that mythology by definition implies the supernatural.

At the same time, we have events that had elements attributed to the
supernatural, which did take place, and are historically documented. The two
need not be mutually exclusive.

------
meric
Amazing city. It's unfortunate the Ajyad Fortress (1) had to be demolished to
make way for the tower with the largest clock face in the world (2). I also
note every time I visited a devout Muslim's small business or home, and they
have a picture of the Grand Mosque, it's free of the new modern additions that
will facilitate two million (and growing) pilgrims who visit every year. I
suppose the Saudi government didn't care much for past heritage and tradition
because, for muslims, Islam is the religion for the present, and the future.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajyad_Fortress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajyad_Fortress)

2\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait)

~~~
_petronius
A certain amount of almost Byzantine-style iconoclasm seems to be a feature of
Wahabbism[1] in particular, rather than Islam as a whole.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism#Shi.27a_criticism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism#Shi.27a_criticism)

~~~
wtbob
Note that the Byzantine iconoclasts were heavily influenced by the very early
Mohammedan conquests, which rather tends to support the Wahabbists' claims to
be the original Islam.

------
thewarrior
That clock tower and hotel are an abomination and in bad taste.It's as if
someone decided to put a Las Vegas style Casino style building right next to
the Vatican.

~~~
spacecowboy_lon
I know I used to work for Dar Al Handasha (who designed that clock tower) and
even as a non mulslim I think its a shocking way to treat they holy places.

~~~
Alex3917
In the west we do the same thing, e.g. just look at Niagra falls.

~~~
ericras
Better example might be the private Gettysburg National Tower that stood from
1974 to 2000:
[https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5481/11078991455_f4ebf6ffc0_b....](https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5481/11078991455_f4ebf6ffc0_b.jpg)

------
sandworm101
I'm not muslim but did live in Saudi Arabia for many years (aramco) and have
to say that the saudi government is very devout when it comes to hajj. When
accidents happened, the entire country was upset regardless of the news
blackouts. The ability to provide hajj underpins the royal family's authority.
They take is very personally.

But a few things...

(1) The ban on non-muslims is not as tight as portrayed. More than a few
westerners have been to mecca, many to advise on hajj matters. There are also
legendary stories of non-muslim children being brought on hajj by saudi
families. I heard stories from neighbours, things more than rumours, but never
met anyone who actually witnessed this.

(2) Lots of the people sleeping rough do so by choice. Many simply do not want
pillows and beds during hajj. For them it isn't meant to be comfortable. More
hotel-type rooms may help, but it will never get everyone off the streets.

(3) Security is a huge issue. Religious extremists have caused plenty of
trouble. The Saudis have large numbers of soldiers hidden just out of sight to
quell any repeat.

(4) The clockface is horrible, but that is the style in the country. People
who go to Vegas sometimes remark about that style, but it is just a matter of
taste. If you were living there it wouldn't seem nearly as bad. The clock
itself also serves a purpose. Many pilgrims do not wear watches, most all are
suffering jet lag and much of the process is now indoors. So like vegas, it is
very easy to loose track of time. The various clocks are all big and horrible,
but do serve some function. (It also has to be a mechanical clock, else
everyone would insist on arabic numerals, which I've never seen on any digial
wallclock.)

(5) The King actually does hajj each year, during the appropriate time. He has
guards, but they could do nothing for him in a crush. For a man his age we
have to give him some credit.

------
chippy
"The most comprehensive database of Hajj and Umrah ratings and reviews
worldwide! Find out what pilgrims say before you choose your Hajj or Umrah
travel agent, company, or group."

[http://www.hajjratings.com/](http://www.hajjratings.com/)

Like trip advisor but for pilgrims. Wonderful comments.

"They are terrible guys. They gave me wrong transportation and they
overcharged me for the airline ticket as opposed to other people.

Avoid at any cost!!!! "

People just like us and many from HN travel to these places and they
experience it in a great many ways. Hajj is not a holiday, but it's certainly
travel!

------
littletimmy
Someone should pay more attention to preserving old heritage sites and
historical structures in Mecca. The boorish Saudi Royal family is turning this
into a religious disneyland. What shame.

~~~
1024core
> The boorish Saudi Royal family is turning this into a religious disneyland.

My guess is that they're doing it to put a Wahabbi stamp on things and erase
everything else.

~~~
Gibbon1
The Wahabbi/Salifists see destroying all that old stuff as a feature not a
bug.

------
dragansah
The comments below the article are very interesting especially the ones about
destroying the ottoman heritage.

------
bane
Perhaps somebody here knows, why are tents still used at the midway point in
Mina? It seems that permanent structures and infrastructure would do a more
efficient job of housing all the pilgrims. Is it tradition or a religious
requirement of some sort?

~~~
theklub
It looks like they are building as fast as they can to be honest. I'm sure its
only a matter of time.

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gnyman
In case you don't see any pictures, unblock "Optimizely". At least with the
standard ghostery install it did not load any pictures before I allowed
Optimizely.

~~~
codezero
It's amazing how many people implement Optimizely in a way that breaks the
site if you block it.

------
njharman
The huge towers are pretty amazing. I have never seen them in any other
pictures of the Kabba
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait)

------
tdees40
Mecca seems like a pretty fascinating place. It's a terrible shame non-Muslims
are banned.

~~~
bluedevil2k
These are legitimate questions - how do they know who is Muslim and who is not
Muslim? Do they check before you get to the camps?

~~~
digi_owl
To be a bit facile: circumcision.

~~~
insulanian
How about women?

------
rikacomet
Islamic Perspective in Rough (need citation):

Prophet Adam (Peace be upon Him) created the first House of Worship at Kaaba.

During the time of Prophet Nuh (Noah) (Peace be Upon Him), it was in one
sense, 'lost'.

Then Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) 'the true' and Prophet Ismail (?) (Peace be
Upon them) rebuilt the Kabba again.

Again and Again, Kabba and Mecca with it, were lost (to what?)

Until At last, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) cleaned it for the last
time. Removing the 360+ idols placed within.

A interesting story, just Before the time of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon
him) is that a certain king vowed to destroy the Kaaba, and plunder the city
of Mecca. To which he was roughly told 'The Owner of this House is well
capable of protecting it'. The Army of that King was killed by a hailstorm of
stones carried by countless birds, a sign for those who believe.

~~~
chroma
Your username looked familiar. I finally figured out where I'd seen it.
Earlier this year, we both commented on an article about the Charlie Hebdo
massacre.[1][2] You said, "I think both parties were at wrong here." and,
"…the level of Satire in question here, was perhaps too much."[3]

I recall being utterly astonished by your comment. People were _murdered for
drawing cartoons_ and you insinuate that it was partially their fault. Shame
on you.

1\. HN thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879215](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879215)

2\. My comment:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879389](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879389)

3\. rikacomet's comment:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879528](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879528)

------
xsace
While a cool and nicely illustrated article, I fail to see how it's relevant
to HN.

~~~
DanBC
Just out of interest: what do you think is on-topic for HN?

Also, from the guidelines.

> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes
> more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the
> answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

~~~
xsace
Well you just said it: "Anything that good hackers would find interesting" and
not "Anything that anyone would find interesting".

~~~
Bulk70
I'm a hacker, and I found this interesting. What now?

