
Uber contract 'gibberish', says British MP investigating gig economy - davidgerard
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/06/uber-contract-gibberish-says-mp-investigating-gig-economy
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Symbiote
The actual Uber [Contract] is found on the [Evidence] page of the most recent
work and pensions committee [report].

There are Amazon and Deliveroo contracts too.

[Contract] [http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-
committees/work-a...](http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-
committees/work-and-pensions/Written_Evidence/Uber-BV-Driver-Services-
Agreement-20-10-2015.pdf)

[Evidence] [http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-
a-z/...](http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-
select/work-and-pensions-committee/inquiries/parliament-2015/self-employment-
gig-economy-16-17/publications/)

[Report] [http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-
a-z/...](http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-
select/work-and-pensions-committee/news-parliament-2015/gig-economy-evidence-
published-16-17/)

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ballenf
There is a high degree of irony casting aspersions against a contract by
calling it gibberish while citing specific clauses to back up the accusation
(if it were truly gibberish, wouldn't the complaint be 'the contract could
mean anything, it's unclear.' Not: 'these 3 clauses are problematic because of
...'.

The specific complaints were exceptions taken with very clear aspects of the
contract, not vague terms difficult to decipher.

If common law still rules English law, vague terms would be interpreted
against the drafter. I would guess that the contracts are crystal clear.
Better critical terms could be:

* one-sided / imbalanced * onerous * too long, too specific, too technical

The complaints against the moveroo contract with regard to challenging your
independent status are a different issue.

~~~
heisenbit
Well, the contract uses clear terms like "Customer" but where on earth is a
customer roped into such a thicket of demands, encouragement etc.? Customer is
king so the saying goes but here the "Customer" is the driver and that
"Customer" gets a lot of rules dictated.

Customers in the real world pay. "Customers" of Uber get payed.

It is not that the language is vague. It is double plus good.

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zelos
"[An Uber] spokesperson said: “Almost all taxi and private hire drivers in the
UK are self-employed""

Is that true? Most taxis I see in an area are from 2-3 large local companies:
are they employing drivers on a similar basis to Uber?

It seems like a pretty simple thing for the Guardian to fact check.

~~~
dspillett
A lot of taxi drivers are essentially self employed and working under
franchise, or similar arrangements, IIRC. I don't know for sure (in other
words: rampant speculation follows!) but I expect it is a way for the taxi
firm to dodge various responsibilities regarding health & safety, insurance,
tax, and so forth, by passing them on to the "self employed" driver.

~~~
notahacker
I suspect it's mostly about flexibility: the firm doesnt have to worry about
balancing driver availability (either complying with labour laws or not having
them available at peak times) because they get paid exclusively in fares so
will be available every hour that's humanly possible.

As I understand it my local firm's drivers pay a weekly fee for use of car and
dispatch service, and take the fees, so aren't in a very different situation
from Uber drivers.

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arethuza
I suspect most contracts are gibberish - the only ones anyone really looks at
in detail are the ones where there is a dispute and that's a tiny percentage.

Ask a litigator what they think about the people who drafted the contracts and
they generally aren't particularly kind.

Edit: I wasn't meaning employment contracts which are special cases, like
consumer contracts.

~~~
mattmanser
I've read all my past employment contracts and all of them have been readable
and understandable (UK). I've even gone back and challenged points before and
got some removed or, for example, been given a waiver allowing me to run a
company in my spare time (as the contract said you couldn't unless you had
asked).

I realise I have much higher reading comprehension than most people, and have
more bargaining power than a Deliveroo rider, but I find it crazy someone
wouldn't read their own employment contract from start to end.

~~~
arethuza
Actually, on the subject of employment contracts (which I wasn't talking about
originally) I've had to resort to multiple lawyers who gave conflicting advice
on seemingly innocent and clearly written parts of a contract I had.

The experienced lawyer who realised what trick a particular clause was trying
to pull saved me quite a chunk of cash!

~~~
biot
What was the trick?

~~~
arethuza
I can't remember the details - was over 2 years ago. But I was on 6 months
notice and I was leaving for my current job and I (i.e. my lawyer) negotiated
getting 3 months pay out of them and it was something to do with the tax on
that lump sum - either they would have had to pay or I would. They wanted me
to sign a severance agreement under pressure and I handed it across to the
lawyer and he did a splendid job of negotiating away all the silly terms and
got them to pay his legal fee (which is actually pretty common in the UK).

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kwhitefoot
I think it would be helpful in this sort of conversation if everyone made it
clear whether they were discussing US or UK practice (or French, or German,
etc.).

It's very confusing to read what seems like a well reasoned comment and then
find a few comments further on that none of it applied because the legal
system in question was the wrong one.

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mankash666
Convenient for the government to crib about lost payroll taxes and their
inability to regulate Uber. What studies have been done on how may jobs are
created and $ injected into economy because of Uber/gig-companies?

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_red
Yes Minister.

Unlike most legislation, which is perfectly readable and not overwhelmed by
legalese and corporate-funded loopholes.

