

Penn (of Penn&Teller) tries to charge a TSA employee with assault - seldo
http://www.pennandteller.com/03/coolstuff/penniphile/roadpennfederalvip.html

======
egb
Point of order, in that this doesn't seem to be from the xray pushback - this
seems to be from 2002.

Page title is "Federal V.I.P Penn - 11/13/02"

------
patrickgzill
I can't actually reach the page, however, there is established legal precedent
that explicitly removes immunity from any Federal officer "just doing their
job" if what they are actually doing is illegal.

This is sometimes called a "Bivens" claim; see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivens>

------
jdp23
this is a belated answer to the geophile's question a few days ago at
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1898257> : if you feel you're assaulted,
you should call for the local police. They tried to discourage him, but he
stood his ground. Here's what happened:

Finally Metro PD shows up. It's really interesting. First of all, the cop is a
BIG P&T fan and that ain't hurting. Second, I get the vibe that he is WAY sick
of these federal leather-sniffers. He has that vibe that real cops have toward
renta-cops....

I tell the cop the story, in a very funny way. The cop, the voice of sanity
says, "What's wrong with you people? You can't just grab a guy's crank without
his permission." I tell him that my genitals weren't grabbed and the cop says,
"I don't care, you can't do that to people. That's assault and battery in my
book."

~~~
geophile
Penn came out OK, but it seems like Penn he had a few good breaks. The guy in
San Diego didn't fare so well, possibly because he threatened to call the cops
if he was groped. Penn was groped, and then he called the cops. While I don't
think that we're going to see consistent cause-and-effect from the entire TSA
workforce, these cases are definitely useful in finding out how to react.

I've also been wondering about civil suits. Maybe that approach will be tried
soon. It does seem like the number of incidents (or incidents becoming known)
is increasing.

~~~
colanderman
The problem with the get-groped-then-call-cops approach is that _most_ TSA
employees will tell you that they're about to touch you, giving you the
implicit option to leave (which of course costs $10k but is still an option).
This particular employee did not give Penn this choice, which is what makes it
assault.

Further, it's been mentioned elsewhere that the Supreme Court determined that
TSA _does_ have the authority to detain you in the airport, which means that
even if you choose to walk out and risk the fine, they can still physically
restrain you without legally assaulting you.

------
M1573RMU74710N
I think it he handled it pretty well, but I really hope he doesn't press
charges.

I'm as against the ridiculous new regulations as anyone, but I'm surprised by
the general lack of sympathy for the actual TSA agents on the ground,
_regardless_ of anything...just as a matter of course.

As far as I can tell the agent in question made an honest mistake, they didn't
notify Penn. I have a hard time believing anyone who travels could be unaware
of the new regulations. This doesn't excuse the mistake, but it's important to
put it in context.

They definitely dropped the ball, and deserve some sort of chastisement... but
is slapping them with an assault charge really fair?

It seems to me it would be taking it out on the little guy...

I don't envy these people...they're generally hated and I don't know if you've
notice but the general American public is not largely composed of people I'd
want to lay hands on.

They probably have to frisk 1000's of people a day, and as many in Penn's
story confirm this is all so new and up in the air.

Everyone makes mistakes sometimes....it's unavoidable. Doctors sometimes make
mistakes, and people die. Generally though, they are only punished if they
really screwed up...and even then not with criminal charges.

It's also worth noting Doctors are generally well paid for the
responsibilities their position entails.

TSA agents are probably not paid terribly well, but regardless are expected to
be perfect machines.

The problem is all this stuff about sexual assault clouds the issue....there
is a lot of potential for a (and I hesitate to use the term, but I'm not sure
how else to phrase it) "real" sexual assault to occur...where a TSA agent is
clearly and deliberately overstepping the bounds...and when that happens it
may be lost in all the other stories of people who are shrieking "sexual
assault" just because they (rightly) disagree with this stupid policy. I have
a hard time believing Penn really felt as if he was assualted, except perhaps
a metaphorical assault against his dignity and personal liberties. That is a
serious assault...but this agent is not the one responsible for that.

The attitude some people have towards TSA agents strikes me as childish and
incredibly entitled.

We should be holding individual agents accountable, but I can't help like
feeling people are holding them to a higher standard than is really realistic,
and are misdirecting their anger....it should be directed at the policy makers
not the poor shmoes who it falls upon to enforce it...people just trying to
make a living and get by.

I would say making a fuss, and even calling the Cops was a good idea as it
really registers the outrage and puts a cost on keeping this stupid
policy....ruining some poor shmoes life with actual assault charges? not so
much...

~~~
araneae
Right, so if a Jew was getting walked to gas chamber, they shouldn't get mad
at the Nazi that was doing it because they were just following orders?

OBVIOUSLY it isn't as bad, but you have every right to get mad at someone for
doing something that's oppressive, even if they are a wage-slave.

~~~
M1573RMU74710N
Well there's a couple problems here:

1) I'm not saying "don't get mad"...I explicitly said otherwise. I'm saying
"we should punish appropriately"

2) The basis for this is not so much that they were following orders....the
basis is they made a mistake while carrying out their job.

There's a big difference between someone who is a murderer for a living and a
Doctor who makes a (reasonable) mistake and kills someone.

The Doctor shouldn't get off Scott-free, but neither should they be charged
with first degree murder.

The "just following orders" bit comes in because let's be honest: There seems
to be an undercurrent here based on the fact that Penn has a disagreement with
this policy.

So Penn basically "has it out" for this guy in advance based on the fact that
he disagrees with what the guy's bosses ordered.

Like I said before, the guy screwed up...but it must be put in context.

I think it's important to discriminate between someone who through
circumstances does something oppressive, and someone who ACTS oppressive.

In the case of the former, you should take issue with the act, and the
circumstances.

In the latter case, you also take issue with the person.

I don't have much to go on, but I get the general impression that this was
just some poor shmoe trying to do his job. He didn't set out to violate Penn's
rights.

Penn shouldn't just drop it...but neither should he ruin the guys life.

It's very easy (and imho a little lazy) to say "well they should just quit
their job instead of being a tool for the man.

There's so much wrong with that sentiment I don't know where to begin.

To answer your question directly:

No, you should not as a matter of course.

A lot of Nazis were practically kids. They may have been drafted...if they
disobeyed orders, they might have been shot or sent to the Eastern Front.

By staying, they might have been able to treat the Jews a little better than
their replacement would...who knows.

Again, this doesn't absolve them but it's important to put in context.

Who you should direct your anger at is the people who ordered the Jews into
the gas chamber...and the people who agreed with it.

