
Germany's Wi-Fi Shortage Set to Ease as Merkel Backs New Bill - jeo1234
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-16/germany-s-wi-fi-shortage-set-to-ease-as-merkel-backs-new-bill
======
codebeaker
I'm currently suffering two copyright infringement cases, which I can only
assume are the result of the storm that reset my FritzRepeater back to factory
settings, leaving an open bridge into my network.

Two copyright claims, from two law firms, for albums I've never heard of, at
times that I wasn't in the house.

Because of an arcane, but largely logical German law named "Störerhaftung" I
am by default responsible, and have to pay both claims (in the order of €5,000
each). I have no recourse.

Tech-savvy as I am, powerless to defend against a case such as this, where do
I stand, I could theoretically bring a case against AVM Deutschland
(manufacturer of the Fritzrepeater) but then the burden is on me to prove
their buggy software failed, and reset to factory settings.

An impossible situation, and I hope that laws such as these move in the
direction of transparency, the Störerhaftung is designed to make sure that
someone who loses out always has someone to claim against (common other uses,
are for example if drunks throw stones from the top of a building, and then
run away, the building owner is responsible, in lieu of finding and proving
that the drunkards were responsible) - it's arcane, and whilst well intended,
and the "terrorism" argument holds strong, this is about copyright, and always
maintaining the Störerhaftung right.

~~~
vapourismo
[https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterlassungserklärung](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterlassungserklärung)

I think that is what you need.

~~~
pluma
Not without consulting a lawyer first.

If you signed one of these in the past and get "caught" again, you're in even
worse trouble than you would be otherwise. The last thing you want to do is
give them more ammunition against you.

------
wifi_germany
This bill is actually heavily criticized in germany, for example by the
Freifunk initiative: [http://freifunkstattangst.de/2015/06/16/neuer-tmg-
entwurf-zu...](http://freifunkstattangst.de/2015/06/16/neuer-tmg-entwurf-zur-
notifizierung-an-die-eu-noch-immer-keine-rechtssicherheit-wlan-stoererhaftung-
bleibt/) (german)

The bill requires network operators to make "reasonable effort to secure the
network against unauthorized access" and to "allow access only to users that
have agreed not to violate the law during their use" of the network.

The bill also takes service providers into liability if they offer
"gefahrgeeignete Dienste" (I have no idea how that accurately translates to
english).

Heise has more information in german:
[http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Bundesregierung-
besch...](http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Bundesregierung-beschliesst-
umstrittenen-WLAN-Gesetzentwurf-2818747.html)

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _The bill requires network operators to make "reasonable effort to secure
> the network against unauthorized access" and to "allow access only to users
> that have agreed not to violate the law during their use" of the network._

Can you elaborate on why this is bad?

~~~
briandear
Would a bad person actually refuse to agree with not breaking the law? A 'bad'
person already has a willingness to not follow the rules, so how would an
agreement matter?

~~~
jdmichal
I think the point is to clearly shift the moral hazard away from the provider
to the user. The user may not uphold the agreement, but then they are clearly
the morally wrong party.

~~~
scotty79
Isn't there some meta rule about the first world countries law systems (us
excluded) that the only crimes you are responsible for are the ones you
personally commited?

~~~
germanier
Few things: Firstly, this is about civil cases, not crimes. Secondly, the
wrongdoing here is allowing someone else to use your internet connection to
perform illegal actions, not those actions themselves. Thirdly, in any law
system I can think of there are crimes you can commit by literally _doing
nothing_ (neglect). For example, in Germany it's a crime to know about a
planned murder and not do anything about it.

------
MrBuddyCasino
> providers won’t be held liable as long as they secure the network properly
> and get users to agree not to act illegally

Of course they had to include that paragraph, forcing everyone to tick some
stupid check-box. As if the cookie agreements weren't enough already.

~~~
jessriedel
I'm really trying to understand how anyone can think this is sensible. Maybe
20 years ago when these laws were written by people who had never used WiFi at
a cafe before, but surely everyone involved with writing this bill intuits
that this sort of a measure is utterly worthless and just induces frictions.
Maybe it enables prosecution later for lying? Hard to believe they think that
outweighs the costs.

~~~
neuronic
Did you ever take a look who sits in the European Parliament and European
Commission?

Introducing Günther Oettinger, the European Commissioner for Digital Economy
and Society: (wait for his English at the 0:20 mark)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88OGXLFpeMw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88OGXLFpeMw)

As a German I am completely embarrassed.

~~~
skrebbel
wait, you're embarrassed because a politician has an accent when speaking
English?

~~~
kuschku
No, because his english is horrible, and then he said, during a press
conference "we’re here in Germany, we talk Deutsch!".

In general, his english is so bad that it’s become some kind of running gag.

~~~
mmarx
> No, because his english is horrible, and then he said, during a press
> conference "we’re here in Germany, we talk Deutsch!".

You're confusing Westerwelle with Öttinger.

~~~
kuschku
Öttinger said the same, too. Extra3 made fun of him for copying Westerwelle.

It doesn’t change anything anyway.

------
modeless
> as long as they [...] get users to agree not to act illegally

Is forcing everyone to set up captive portal pages just so people can check a
stupid box on a form going to make anyone's life better? Is it going to
benefit anyone in any way? I can't understand how anyone could possibly think
that this requirement is a good idea.

------
Kequc
Germany is no longer going to be one of the only places on Earth which
punishes Wifi providers for what users do while on their network? I may
actually be able to choose between more than 3 different cafes' that offer
Wifi from my half of the city? (One fewer than a month ago.)

Wow. That would actually be fantastic thanks for getting on that.

~~~
nolite
France does as well

~~~
pm3003
Yes, but they have introduced new practical rules for simplified user
registration.

And anyway they're not as restrictive as the Germans. For some fun, check GEMA
vs Youtube: [https://apps.opendatacity.de/gema-vs-
youtube/en/](https://apps.opendatacity.de/gema-vs-youtube/en/)

~~~
detaro
GEMA vs youtube is not really related.

------
lucb1e
Oh, that explains. I've always wondered why there are so incredibly few
hotspots in Germany - and the few existing hotspots are paid. Voiced it a few
times to Germans but nobody knew it was because operators would be held
liable.

~~~
kaybe
May I introduce you to Freifunk:

They're basically working around Störerhaftung by channeling the traffic over
a gateway as an ISP. Everyone can offer up part of their traffic, and there
are quite a few members (as shown in the local groups, they have maps). Feel
free to use some of our traffic, for example. No problems so far.

[http://freifunk.net/en/](http://freifunk.net/en/)

------
expertentipp
> as long as they secure the network properly

How do I prove it? This right here is so abmahnung trolls can keep on
threatening

> and get users to agree not to act illegally

Yet another useless popup, cookie popup is not enough

> ”digital agenda” aimed at blanketing the country with high-speed Internet by
> 2018

A yeah, "VDSL for all". Where do I buy VDSL modem in 2018? I will have to
break into Technisches Museum and steal one (no, I don't want your "free"
fritzbox)

~~~
simoncion
Why don't you want a Fritz!Box? If the internet comments are to be believed,
they are the best routers in Germany. [0]

[0] Note: I'm a USian who is _rather_ happy with his EdgeRouter Lite + UAP-AC-
LR.

~~~
roel_v
Oh here is my chance to complain about this pet peeve! My provider gives you a
Fritzbox with you subscription, I called them a few times that they should use
their mass-purchase leverage to demand better functionality but of course the
poor support people couldn't make that happen even if they understood what I
was getting at :) Fritzboxen are praised across the internet as great routers,
but they won't even let you

\- change the default host name suffix \- assign static host names for
internal use \- see which device uses how much bandwidth (only the total -
yeah great, now I have to hunt for which machine/mobile is uploading all those
photos to dropbox) \- block machines from the network, and/or throttle
bandwidth. It _looks_ like you can do it, but the implementation is useless -
yes you can prioritize smtp over http, hurrah! Everything bandwidth-hungry in
2015 goes over http, and then it's all-or-nothing on fritzbox.

------
rotoole
This is an issue across many EU countries, that require by law that WiFi
providers track what their users do online, and to keep a permanent record of
it. Its onerous to implement and support. I believe it arose from anti-
terrorism legislation.

~~~
briandear
It also feels like Stasi era nonsense. If someone borrows my phone, must I
record the call?

~~~
mahouse
Yes obviously, how do you prove it was not you who made the call?

~~~
scotty79
Voice? Being provably somewhere else when the call was made?

~~~
mahouse
Voice -> it is not recorded by default by anybody unless you are under the
spotlight.

Prove you are somewhere else -> can you prove you were somewhere else 24/7? I
bet you can not.

~~~
scotty79
If you don't have the voice then you can't say I made the call. Only that it
came from phone registered to me. I can't disprove that if that happened.

------
denzil_correa
Thanks Merkel for the small mercies! I do know of at least one free WiFi
providing service in Germany - "Freifunk Saar".

[https://saar.freifunk.net](https://saar.freifunk.net)

------
pm3003
From the "WLAN" café I spent 2 weeks to find in Kiel (currently in a seminar,
no internet access), and having just paid my €40 bill for 6 GB (bad) 3G
Internet this month, I fully approve this bill.

I also hope at some point cellular internet will get cheaper in Germany...
France 20€ 20 GB, Latvia 10 € 20GB with LTE, Germany 500MB 12€.

~~~
denzil_correa
> From the "WLAN" café

Is there any other country which calls WiFi as WLAN? I have traveled to many
countries in Europe but I assume Germany, France and Luxembourg seem to be the
only countries that use this term.

~~~
pluma
Just a sidenote: I think the reason the term "WiFi" never caught on in Germany
is that

1\. It sounds really awkward in German (most speakers will pronounce the "W"
as in German, i.e. "Vi-Fi").

2\. WLAN is easier to say (think "V-LAN").

3\. It can easily be confused with "HiFi" (which, btw, is commonly pronounced
as "Hi-Fee" for some reason, creating additional confusion about the
acceptable pronunciation of "WiFi" in German).

Another interesting(?) note: unlike WLAN, LAN is commonly pronounced with a
long "a" in German. I'm pretty sure I've heard the word "LAN" used a lot less
since WiFi became so widely used and most people seem to just use the German
word "Netzwerk" (network) or even simply "Netz" (net). Confusingly, a lack of
"Netz" ("Ich hab kaum Netz" \-- "I have barely any net") can also refer to
mobile connections (because "Handynetz" = cellular network -- and yes "Handy"
is a faux-English word commonly used in German to refer to mobile phones
because marketing is stupid).

~~~
mjlee
I'd guess HiFi is pronounced Hi-Fee as it takes the "fi" sound from "High
Fidelity".

~~~
pluma
Sure, but then WiFi would be expected to be pronounced the same -- yet I've
never heard it pronounced as "Wi-Fee" in English.

~~~
roel_v
Everyone except the British call it 'wee-fee' in Europe (well, I can't claim
to have a representative sample for _everyone_ , but at least among those I've
heard about it)

I was already starting to think that I was the weird one.

------
expertentipp
Each time Germans are passing any internet related laws or their brave lawyers
are winning another case against evil Facebook/Google I'm just facepalming.
They keep on hurting themselves, which part of the internet is so difficult
they are not capable of understanding?

------
odiroot
Can we shut down GEMA while we're at that?

~~~
junto
Why? They are trying their best to collect a fair fee for artists. YouTube are
the ones that have decided that those rules shouldn't apply to them and rather
than accept those laws they use their own site as propaganda to blame GEMA.
What you get presented on YouTube isn't telling the whole truth by any means.
It is really annoying as a YouTube user in Germany to have so many music
videos blocked, but that is what Google want you to feel. They appear to be
doing a very good job of it by the sound of it!

The reality is that GEMA and Google are both acting like children over the
matter that has been going on since 2009. Both are to blame but the only thing
users see is that it is all GEMA's fault.

The issue needs to be blamed on both.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_of_YouTube_videos_i...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_of_YouTube_videos_in_Germany)

~~~
Xylakant
While you're right that the youtube issue is more complicated than "google
good gema bad" it's an interesting assessment that the GEMA is trying to
collect a "fair" fee for the artist. The GEMA is in dire need of reform on the
fair front and on a couple of other issues as well. For example, only the
upper 5% of the members get to vote on the distribution of funds, classical
music gets ranked higher etc. The goal of the GEMA is a fine one, but over the
years the institution has gone somewhat astray.

For german speakers I can recommend [http://www.internet-law.de/2012/05/ist-
das-system-gema-unfai...](http://www.internet-law.de/2012/05/ist-das-system-
gema-unfair.html) as summary.

------
mtgx
Is that why Wi-Fi is so bad all over Berlin?

~~~
expertentipp
In Berlin? Impossible, it's European startup hub! /s

