

Soon-to-Be Open Secret (Males in College Admission) - tokenadult
http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2009/12/22/whitmire

======
blintson
I don't think anything high schools say should have any impact on admissions
at all.

70 - 90% of my grades in high school were homework. I tested out of 2 years of
math and 3 years of Japanese by studying the curriculum and learning
everything. None of the classes I tested out of counted towards my GPA. I
passed 4 AP tests, but my GPA was 2.4. If principal hadn't kept me there I
would of been in and out in 2 years. I suspect he didn't let me leave because
the high school gets funding from the state per student enrolled.

I did four years of Japanese classes in one and got a five on the calculus
test, but my GPA was below the cutoff for engineering, so I had to get a
professor there to write a special recommendation to let me in. Somebody with
a high GPA who passed no AP tests has preference in admissions over me.

I've got nothing against using test scores for admissions, but grades are
incredibly subjective. 99% of the time they're not a measure of ability,
they're a measure of obedience, and your ability to persuade teachers. And
colleges, by extension are choosing to admit people who are more concerned
with appearances than with actually solving the problem at hand.

~~~
natrius
_"99% of the time they're not a measure of ability, they're a measure of
obedience, and your ability to persuade teachers."_

This is false. Grades correlate reasonably well with ability. Plenty of people
get good grades without corresponding ability, but 99% is a laughable
exaggeration.

~~~
jjs
_"Grades correlate reasonably well with ability."_

... as measured by grades.

~~~
ghshephard
Seriously? Do you really believe that? Given a room of people do you honestly
believe that in talking about, let's say Math, or Physics, or Chemistry that
you couldn't immediately identify which of them had grades in the top 25th
percentile versus the lower 25th percentile? I bet I could _even without
having studied those domains_ in 20+ years.

Now, I'll agree that grades don't correlate _perfectly_ with ability for
_everyone_ - we all know the bright slacker who doesn't turn in his homework,
and maybe skips a test or two. But, in general, a student who score 95% in
physics knows their material very well. A student who scores 15% in physics is
probably clueless.

~~~
falsestprophet
Lets test your hypothesis. I put your written communication skills in the
bottom 50%. Did you earn good marks in English?

~~~
ghshephard
Horrible marks in English. And yes, I do apologize for subjecting everyone to
my subpar written communication skills.

~~~
falsestprophet
Touche: hypothesis supported

~~~
falsestprophet
Also sorry for being snooty. It is easy to get riled up whenever someone tells
you how smart you are.

This is especially true of people who make a living from ostensibly being
clever. Some of us, clearly including myself, are insecure.

------
mdasen
I wish I knew more about this such as:

* what affect on the data would there be if, rather than taking "scores" that are presumably an SAT Verbal, SAT Writing, and SAT Math one took an SAT Verbal, SAT Math, and an SAT II Science.

* what portion of this might be attributable to differences in adolescent development? Female puberty usually starts between 9 and 14. Male puberty usually starts between 10 and 17. That means that males are more likely to be dealing with puberty during the period that their marks and scores are being taken for college admission.

* what portion of this is cultural? Is it more socially acceptable for females to excel academically than males? I'm usually not into the idea that males and females learn differently, but I am not an adolescent development psychologist and therefore am just spouting nonsense.

The one thing that I really love about this article is that it addresses
something really important: no one is willing to talk about it.

~~~
tokenadult
I can provide links to some of the SAT data you are looking for, current to
the most recently reported high school graduating class (class of 2009). These
links are mostly links to .PDF files:

Composite scores:

[http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat_perce...](http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat_percentile_ranks_composite_cr_m_w.pdf)

Math plus Critical Reading scores:

[http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat_perce...](http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat_percentile_ranks_composite_cr_m.pdf)

Math scores:

[http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/SAT-
Math-...](http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/SAT-Math-
Percentile-Ranks-2009.pdf)

Critical Reading scores:

[http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/SAT-
Criti...](http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/SAT-Critical-
Reading-Percentile-Ranks-2009.pdf)

Writing scores:

[http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/SAT-
Writi...](http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/SAT-Writing-
Percentile-Ranks-2009.pdf)

Some score percentiles by gender and ethnicity:

[http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/SAT-
Perce...](http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/SAT-Percentile-
Ranks-by-Gender-Ethnicity-2009.pdf)

Subject Test percentile ranks (no data on gender):

[http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/SAT-
Subje...](http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/SAT-Subject-Test-
Percentile-Ranks-2009.pdf)

The ACT provides test score percentiles, with some data by gender:

<http://www.act.org/news/data/09/pdf/two.pdf>

ACT also reports high school course-taking patterns self-reported by test-
takers:

<http://www.act.org/news/data/09/pdf/three.pdf>

Some of these data allow counts of whether more men or more women are taking
the tests, which is suggestive of which group is submitting more applications
to colleges that require the tests.

SAT state reports

[http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-
research/...](http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-
research/sat/cb-seniors-2009)

e.g.

[http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/MN_09_03_...](http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/MN_09_03_03_01.pdf)

also allow gender comparisons for particular places, and a look at which
colleges get the most SAT score reports submitted from each state.

------
ellyagg
It doesn't matter. Who cares? White males aren't a team. The only drawback I
can see from white males being underrepresented in college is that white males
are underrepresented in college, which is a tautology.

If white males were being treated differently so were being held back, that
would be a major problem, but that's not the case[1].

Moreover, white males seem to be doing just fine professionally, because
college is a very leaky predictor of professional success. College should be
more of a means than an end. Apparently there's more to life than college.

[1] Except through, perhaps, several links of causality chain. And when you
start making those claims, the slope gets slippery fast.

~~~
sethg
One theory I’ve heard is that a lot of white males can get decent jobs without
college degrees, so they do so. Members of other demographic groups, though,
are _really screwed_ if they try to enter the adult workforce without a
college degree. So they’re more motivated to get one.

~~~
sqs
That's an interesting theory, and it probably explains some of the decisions
made by many people I know. Is this a theory you've just heard casually
mentioned or has there been actual research on this?

------
DaniFong
Huge numbers of Young Albertan men who would otherwise be applying to college
are now going straight to work in the oil sands.

It is dangerous, but high paying work. Few women go there at all. Actually it
is attracting a huge number of men from all over Canada.

I don't know if it's the only factor, or if the experiences of educators in
other countries are similar, but it probably should be mentioned...

~~~
anamax
> It is dangerous, but high paying work. Few women go there at all.

Every oil/gold/silver rush attracts sex-workers, most of them women.

~~~
elai
Sex workers would be negligible compared to the men. Have you ever heard of an
exodus of women to be hookers in alberta?

~~~
fizx
I have now! ;)

------
pmorici
What schools are these where women outnumber men? Perhaps it's just CS and
engineering but my graduating class for example had maybe 5 women out of 200
total people. Not even close to a majority. The entire university was better
but still bad 2/3 men 1/3 women.

~~~
tokenadult
Most of the few remaining colleges in the United States with male student
majorities do indeed seem to be colleges with mostly technical major subjects.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Or military academies.

------
fnid
Are fewer males _applying_ as well? If only 40% of applicants are male, then
I'd say the ratio of college entrants is just right.

Otherwise, I don't see a problem. I don't _really_ see a problem anyway. I
never saw a need to have exact demographic representation in all fields. The
only time exact demographic representation seems to be an issue (outside this
article) is when white males are overrepresented.

So white males are underrepresented in college. The world won't end. It may
actually be better in the long run, so I'm not sure what the fuss is.

~~~
hga
The social dynamics can get really ugly when the m/f ration hits a tipping
point, generally thought to be around 60%.

The focus on _white_ males is because the system does everything it can to get
"males of color" into college (well, everything but competently teach them the
3Rs, at least in the US with _Dick and Jane and Their Running Dog Spot_ (Whole
Word nonsense, phrase coined by Jerry Pournelle, who's wife's career was
teaching the hardest cases how to read)).

~~~
ardit33
I went to a 62%/38% female/male ratio, and social dynamics were alright. A lot
of girls kept their hometown bf. (they had to), lots of parties, and getting
laid was easier.

Now I had a close friend that went to a 70%/30% guys/girls school, and the
atmosphere was definetly different. Things were more boring, nobody was
getting laid, and the few women that where there were acting like they were
walking over water. People were more concentrated in studying than having fun
(parties with only dudes, get boring pretty fast).

I know I am overgeneralizing, but things were ok.

Now if the ratio gets even worse, then who knows. Girls/women will have to
date somebody that makes less then them or that has lower education level.

To a certain degree, that is what currently educated black females are facing.

------
teuobk
It's been a concern in the past, too. The distant past.

In 1899, Stanford University limited female enrollment to 500 students,
apparently out of concern that the university would dilute the men's
education. Not sure when that restriction was lifted, but it's certainly not
in place today.

Source: <http://janestanford.stanford.edu/biography.html>

~~~
sqs
The restriction was lifted in 1933, I believe. Some of Jane Stanford's other
requirements were 1) free tuition and 2) no summer school, since students
should get out and see the real world during the summer. I'm glad they let
more women in, although I wish they had left the free tuition requirement in.
:)

------
gamble
I attend the University of Alberta and this is the first I've heard of a
controversy, so I think the story may be a bit overblown. I don't recall
seeing any of the posters campus was supposedly 'awash' with.

------
cool-RR
I'm so confused. I read the beginning 3 times and I'm not sure which side is
complaining about not enough men and which side is complaining about not
enough women.

~~~
chrischen
I thought it was confusing too, but I think the writer was arguing that men
are getting disadvantaged because they are underperforming.

~~~
gaius
_I thought it was confusing too, but I think the writer was arguing that men
are getting disadvantaged because they are underperforming._

That's an interesting choice of word. Men are not underperforming because of
lack of effort on their part, but because of the feminization of the previous
stage of education (mainly female teachers, the switch in emphasis from exams
to coursework, etc)

------
jonallanharper
We _could_ drop all quotas, let individual choice and the market determine the
higher education populace, and fire all the social engineers who waste space
and tax dollars pondering this rubbish...

That wouldn't work though, b/c liberals wouldn't have anything else to be paid
for if the optimum solution emerged without their meddling.

------
Mz
Unfortunately, I have been unable to open the article, so I am not sure how
relevant this is. But the thing that comes to mind, based on some of the
comments here, is that Blacks have joined (or were doing so) the military at
high-ish rates because it was an opportunity for them to get ahead (the
military is apparently somewhat more color-blind than the civilian world when
it comes to promotions and compensation). Then the Gulf War happened and
suddenly folks were screaming "discrimination" because Blacks were at a
disproportionately high risk for getting shot and killed due to being in the
military in relatively high numbers.

------
viggity
Perhaps the answer is instead to eliminate any sex/race/nationality
preferences. I'm assuming the reason for the lack of white males relates to
every other group has been getting some preference at some point in time.

