
India bans PUBG, Baidu and more than 100 apps linked to China - sameer_hacker
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53998205
======
jeswin
What I wish India would do is this: force Chinese phone companies to ship
stock Android and full source code. They sell hundreds of millions of phones
in India and will have to find middle ground, and the outcome will be good for
everyone.

~~~
sova
Okay, source code, then what about chip schematics and everything on the
hardware layer you can't audit for?

~~~
qppo
How do you verify the chip on a schematic is the chip on the device you
purchase?

~~~
phre4k
X-ray it.

~~~
metta2uall
From my very basic understanding X-ray doesn't reveal silicon doping layers

~~~
orbifold
Put it under an electron microscope then. That combined with carefully
removing metal layer by layer should do the trick.

------
actuator
I think this might be related to the Tibetan origin special forces soldier of
Indian Army being killed in some recent altercation with PRC on their northern
border.[1]

I do think India is going on a slippery slope now. With Tiktok, one can even
make a case of it being used to manipulate sentiments and being used for
propoganda, but that argument can hardly be made for a game like PubG. It also
brings into question whether the ruling government can disrupt a business on
its whim of the day.

Also, as far as I understand India is far more dependent economically on trade
with China then China is on India. Do they really want to start a trade war
with China?

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/01/indian-
special...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/01/indian-special-
forces-soldier-killed-in-skirmish-with-chinese-troops)

~~~
addicted
The ruling government has destroyed the Indian economy with its arbitrary
decisions. And sometimes the get the judiciary to chip in as well.

The first real disaster to the Indian economy was the billions in retroactive
taxes that were applied to telecoms. And then the attempt made by the
government to break through the corporate firewalls and extract that money
from foreign parents. That hit FDI immediately.

That was followed by demonetization, extremely poor rollout of GST, a terribly
executed lockdown and subsequent reopening, and now the arbitrary control over
Chinese companies when China is probably the largest private investor in India
right now. All these things are hurting India with little benefit to show for,
other than jingoistic support for the ruling party.

India is yet another example of “<Country> First” parties coming in and taking
actions which undermine the absolute fundamentals of what the country is and
damaging it and its citizens in so many ways.

Make life terrible for your citizens and blame China while looting your
citizens left right and center is apparently a winning strategy in multiple
countries.

~~~
pagan42
Please cite your sources, exactly and to the point. Lockdown if executed in
any way would have been abused by the people.

People went on a rampage in *religious ( Taliban linked)" gatherings, India
didn't had much cases but these bunch of people made sure the cases spread.

It's the people to he blamed for the lockdown spread

~~~
connectsnk
Dont know why this is being downvoted. Sounds like a reasonable argument

~~~
saagarjha
Asking people to cite their sources without presuming good faith is not very
welcome here.

~~~
kranner
No, it's totally welcome AFAIK.

But the comment made an inaccurate claim regarding the Taliban (which is not
relevant in any way related to Covid infections in India) and neglected to
provide any sources for their own claim while demanding sources from their
parent.

~~~
saagarjha
Asking people to cite their sources in good faith is very welcome. Asking
people to cite their sources _in bad faith_ is not welcome because commenting
in bad faith is not welcome. It says so in the guidelines:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
kranner
My comment was about asking for sources, which is not mentioned in the
guidelines specifically. "Assume good faith" is about how comments are to be
interpreted, presumably when there is ambiguity. I don't see that it applies
in this case.

~~~
saagarjha
> Please cite your sources, exactly and to the point.

This isn't a polite way to ask someone to provide evidence for their claim,
it's a demand dressed up as a courteous request with the implication that the
comment it was replying to was not "exactly and to the point" and that the
author has some sort of onus to improve the quality of their conversation. But
in fact it's really just a lazy comment because it costs almost nothing to
post and yet puts significantly higher burden on the other side, especially
because it is picky. Doing this is a classic example of engaging in bad faith.

(Good ways of asking for a citation might include "I don't agree with that, in
fact I don't really think that I can find any examples of this occurring the
way you have laid out. Would you mind giving some examples to show this
actually happening?" This allows the author to provide sources without being
left open to an immediate response that those sources are not "exactly and to
the point" and is actually a deferential want rather than an imposition.)

~~~
kranner
Fair enough, thanks for clarifying.

------
maerF0x0
> India's IT Ministry said it had "credible information" the latest batch were
> acting against India's interests.

I'd venture to say many apps are against _everyone's_ interest due to the
caustic effects on society they have.

~~~
threatofrain
Sort of calls into question the quality of the citizen in a modern democracy
if they are asked to make judgments on war and industry and yet they cannot be
trusted with online video games.

~~~
magicsmoke
The founders of modern democracy already questioned the quality of the average
citizen and whether they could be trusted with policy making. Hence the US was
founded as a representative democracy. Citizens didn't make judgements on war
and industry, they made judgements on politicians that would do so on their
behalf.

~~~
vkou
The founding fathers were so concerned about this, that the US was also
founded as a representative democracy, where the only people whose opinions
counted were wealthy white landowning men.

Let's not look at a model where less than 2% of the population could vote as
some brilliant stroke of foresight. It was created by aristocrats for
aristocrats.

Mind you, this post does not advocate for direct democracy, but the origin
myth of the founding fathers always needs to be looked at with a bit more
context then it is usually afforded.

~~~
lopmotr
It's still true that only about 2% of people can vote in America today. That's
because it's a right restricted to members of the privileged citizen class.
You might say that foreigners shouldn't vote because it doesn't affect them,
but it does. America has a lot of influence over other countries whose
citizens are as helpless as blacks and women back then.

~~~
metiscus
I think your math is a bit off. More than 2 percent of the US population voted
in the previous election. Unless you are claiming that 330 million over the
entire world population is 2 percent and thus only the people located in
America (or citizens overseas) can vote which is and should be true.

------
searchableguy
I appreciate the sentiment of having more domestic alternatives and
competition but there's an insignificant amount of work here. Indie developers
and studios won't start making apps and games for India unless they can
sustain themselves. That is hard. I expect bigger companies such as jio to
take lion's share and have a default monopoly at this point.

> India has emerged as the fastest growing app market in the world with 19
> billion apps downloaded in 2019, up from 6.55 billion in 2016, according to
> data from analytics and market intelligence firm App Annie’s State of Mobile
> 2020 report published last week.

> Indians have spent only $120 million on mobile apps whereas China dominates
> mobile spending with $48 billion, which is 40% of total revenue generated
> through mobile apps.

> In-app subscriptions contributed to 96% of spend in top non-gaming apps.

[https://entrackr.com/2020/01/india-is-fastest-growing-
market...](https://entrackr.com/2020/01/india-is-fastest-growing-market-for-
app-downloads-in-world/)

Some background:

> PM Narendra Modi on Sunday urged startups and entrepreneurs to develop
> innovative “toys and games, for India and of India” to meet domestic demand
> and increase its share in the global toy business, estimated at Rs 7 lakh
> crore. He also called upon people to support indigenously developed apps
> which could replace the ones currently in vogue and are controlled by
> foreign companies.

[https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-
business/...](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/pm-
modi-bats-for-local-toy-industry-urges-people-to-support-desi-
apps/articleshow/77841819.cms)

~~~
ffpip
Jio unfortunately blatantly copies western apps and adds a 'Made in India'
tag. Therefore people think it is patriotic to use it.

They copied Whatsapp but removed the end to end encryption. They copied Zoom
and removed the decent security. They copied amazon and started JioMart, whose
apps look exactly the same.

Am waiting for them to start Jioogle, as an alternative search engine.

~~~
oblio
The things is, that's kind of how it starts.

First you copy badly, then you copy well, then you improve.

Baby steps.

~~~
d3nj4l
A monopoly doesn't have much incentive to improve, especially not one that the
state is effectively enforcing.

~~~
oblio
India is a huge market. Wouldn't other local companies in other domains see
how much money Jio is making and try to compete with them? Tata, etc.?

------
green-bottle
Like all other internet bans in India I doubt this one will have any teeth.
Everyone has a "Free" VPN app that they use to bypass these restrictions.

Most people own Android phones where they can sideload apps downloaded from
some third party APK website (of questionable trustworthiness)

iPhones have negligible penetration in India so are not even a part of the
equation.

~~~
mayankkaizen
This is typical HN mentality to assume that other people are comparatively
well versed in technical aspects. 99% indians (may be a little exaggerated
figure) don't have any clue about VPN. Most don't even know how to side-
install any app. So government actions do have some significance.

~~~
RandoHolmes
I don't think so.

I knew an Iranian women who told me in Iran everyone knew how to setup and
configure a VPN due to the restrictions they have in place.

It's that way western countries because we don't have such restrictions.

~~~
HaloZero
I wonder how much of that is a networking effect. If you met an Iranian woman
outside of Iran, the chances they had the money to travel or have a connected
family is higher.

I think the government nets capture lots of people. Anyone who is trying to
avoid it can but those groups tend to be middle class or higher. So maybe
instead of 99% it's like 51%?

~~~
RandoHolmes
She was probably one of the most driven women I've ever seen. I had immense
respect for her.

She hadn't been back to see her family for 10 years for fear of not being able
to come back due to not having her green card yet. She finally got it and we
were all super happy for her.

What you're saying might be true, I never got a good sense of how rich or poor
her family was, but she was always studying, always trying to be better. It
was a very sharp contrast to most/all Americans I know.

She came to this country through drive rather than money, of that I have no
doubt.

------
ramshanker
China bans stuff from all over the world, they are just starting to get taste
of their own game. ;)

------
pagan42
The Chinese government mandates that every app written in China must track and
trace it's users. This applies to apps running outside China but owned by
Chinese companies.

1+ or Xiaomi or Huawei, they can't really do anything about it.

They have to track users to be not banned.

~~~
turnersr
Do you have a reference for this? Would love to see how this is written down
and enforced.

------
ETHisso2017
I'm hearing that China might impose secondary sanctions on Reliance Jio in
retaliation - no Chinese manufacturer can sell them phones or help
buildout/maintain their NW infrastructure; tech companies that operate in
China would have to divest out of China entirely to do business with Jio, etc.

~~~
ramshanker
I as an Indian whole heartedly would welcome such moves by China. Even more
opportunity for domestic manufacturers to UP the game.

Jio already proudly claims, No Chinese Equipment on their network.

~~~
econcon
As a guy who works in B2B supply business.

80% tool and machinery market is owned by China.

We simply can't afford German, US or Taiwan tools/machineries.

And if it's gone, big players will not affected by small players will have
major problem. Getting manufacturing permission in India is not easy and very
resource intensive.

------
hal78
Can anyone tell me how a country is able to block these apps and sites? What
is the hardware required? What's the process to do so. Any reference to
existing articles would be amazing.

~~~
throwaway4good
I believe most of this stuff is asking Google and Apple to remove the apps in
questions from their Indian app stores.

~~~
hal78
So its just about the Indian Gov sending an email to Google and Apple. Didn't
know its was this super easy once the country decides regardless of any
knowledge about how this is actually done.

~~~
throwaway4good
One of the many advantages of a centralised app store is just how easy you can
support dictatorships and populist politicians ...

------
ideals
So far in the news (that I consume) I only see countries being agressive
towards Chinese software companies.

I can't imagine this goes on and continues escalating long before China reacts
strongly.

What is China's response going to look like? I feel uneasy that their response
is going to light the fire even more.

~~~
mc32
This is in response to Chinese incursion into disputed territory that has left
soldiers on both sides dead.

Talking heads in India say these measures are Sun-Tsu like and mesmerized the
enemy —Obviously the talking heads are propagandists, but on the other hand
this is about the skirmishes on the Himalayas.

~~~
fellellor
I’m glad that I’ve stopped watching TV news.

~~~
kyuudou
Me too, doomscrolling is such a waste of time. Any news I do follow is more
local, constructive, positive. Lot less propaganda that way.

------
ignoramous
[https://internetfreedom.in](https://internetfreedom.in) is doing important
work in challenging the Indian government's surveillance and censorship
apparatus. If you're passionate about this, consider donating to them and/or
participating in the conversation. They're active, from time to time, on
r/India as well.

(not affiliated with them in anyway or form, but I do work on anti-censorship
tech).

~~~
newyankee
If you visit r/india do visit r/indiadiscussion as well to see how r/india
bans anyone that does not go against their views. It is the most censored
subreddit i have ever seen and likely a battleground of information warfare.

I would just suggest third party persons reading both this and above post to
visit and analyze it for themselves.

~~~
ffpip
r/Chodi wala ho kya?

I've always heard they ban people. Never seen any proof.

They ban people that abuse directly at a user I think. Or do personal
promotion/spam.

~~~
newyankee
Which is why i linked to r/indiadiscussion so that you can get proof.

------
publicola1990
It's not exactly clear if the Indian Government has authority enough to do
this ban, without presenting concrete evidence, under existing laws. There
seems to be no semblance of a due process. As a democratic country India seems
to trust its own citizens very less.

Banning or not sufficient case has not been made in the public, only a cryptic
communique from the Govt is all.

What exactly was the threat from PUBG, which is not there in other games?

~~~
d3nj4l
PUBG was raking in the cash in India. I know quite a few people who snuck in
games in breaks, and nearly every delivery guy I saw waiting around
restaurants and stores was playing PUBG. PUBG mobile streams on YouTube were
massive. IMO this is probably more about the economics, given we have no way
of verifying whether or not PUBG was actually stealing any data.

------
totaldude87
per [https://gadgets.ndtv.com/games/features/pubg-mobile-india-
se...](https://gadgets.ndtv.com/games/features/pubg-mobile-india-series-csgo-
dota-2-cobx-master-2019-rajdip-gupta-2019622)

PUBG has an installed base of 50 million in india (atleast), would love to see
which other alternatives they jump to .. COD or free fire

VPN for a game is intolerable in my experience..

~~~
bazooka_penguin
Tencent has a stake in Activision-blizzard so they may ban CoD later

------
wtmt
One thing I find amusing in this saga that's been playing out since the last
few months is TikTok's reaction to being banned. When it was banned in India a
couple of months ago, it didn't file any lawsuits claiming that it's not a
threat to national security (though it has rejected such claims in the past).
But when the U.S. announced a ban last month, TikTok sued the U.S. government
"on the grounds that it was enacted without evidence and without any due
process." [1]

I wonder what action these companies will take with this ban or what leverage
China may try to use to de-escalate the situation.

[1]: [https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/24/tiktok-sues-the-u-s-
govern...](https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/24/tiktok-sues-the-u-s-government-
over-its-forthcoming-ban/)

~~~
yorwba
Are there any laws in India that would allow a banned company to sue the
government?

~~~
fellellor
There are. Tiktok was banned in India on an earlier occasion because some
women’s groups, or a ruling party politician, I fail to remember which, had
claimed the app was morally corrupting the youth or some such thing. This ban
was overturned once the company filed a case in the courts. IIRC, one of the
arguments the defence successfully used was the ban would result in large job
losses within the company. We are obviously way past any such argument now.

------
cvhashim
This Chinese/India Cold War has been interesting to follow

------
samfisher83
What if they ban like xiaomi or one plus. Those are like the most popular
phones in India.

~~~
gpm
I mean, I guess that would be a great benefit to the non-Chinese competitors
then, Samsung, Google, Apple, etc. I don't see that this would be hugely
disruptive to the country.

Is there some reason you think it would be?

~~~
ETHisso2017
Xiaomi / Oneplus are ~50% of the cost of Samsung/Google/Apple phones

~~~
gpm
Are they? That hasn't been my experience in Canada but maybe pricing is
different in India?

Could you point to some specific cheap phones by those companies so I could
see if I can find comparable phones by non-Chinese companies?

~~~
kyawzazaw
extra tariffs on iPhones. Look here:
[https://www.mi.com/in/](https://www.mi.com/in/)

~~~
gpm
At the top of that page is the Redmi 9a for 6,799. Here is a similar phone
from samsung for Rs. 6,499.

[https://www.91mobiles.com/samsung-galaxy-m01-core-32gb-
price...](https://www.91mobiles.com/samsung-galaxy-m01-core-32gb-price-in-
india)

~~~
bgee
That Redmi has 8 cores (cpu released in 2020) compared to the Samsung with 4
cores (released in 2017).

On Antutu benchmark, the Redmi is almost 5x higher [0]. So I don't think they
can be considered "similar".

[0]: [https://gadgetversus.com/processor/mediatek-mt6739-vs-
mediat...](https://gadgetversus.com/processor/mediatek-mt6739-vs-mediatek-
helio-g85/)

------
throwaway4good
Where is the Indian opposition on this? Are they fully behind Modi's
nationalism?

There is a raging pandemic. Massive recession. Potential war with China.
Internet bans. Crackdown in Kashmir.

There has to be some questions?

~~~
shklnrj
This is not related to any nationalism. Its the response of a sovereign nation
in order to secure the data of its citizens which might face 'potential war
with China'.

Its logical. If you apply logic.

~~~
d3nj4l
> This is not related to any nationalism.

> Its the response of a sovereign nation in order to secure the data of its
> citizens which.

That's... contradictory?

~~~
shklnrj
If a nation A attacks B, and nation B fights back for its cause, would would
call the response of B to be 'nationalism'? Or just protecting sovereignty?

------
ReyanNerway
15days

------
j45
Why does this feel like a movie where there's a possibility of a digital cold
war?

------
known
Xi Jinping must laughing be at this response from Modi regime in India;

------
fito
Pure fearmongering to carry favor with polarized followers of the party, not
unlike what Trump does.

------
2Gkashmiri
_sigh_. Instead of this immense opportunity to see the rise of open source
community where EVERYONE is welcome to contribute and make better software,
the government is somehow pushing towards making homegrown ad ridden closed
source clones of popular ad ridden closed source Chinese apps. Yucks

