
Ancient DNA sheds light on what happened to the Taino, the native Caribbeans - rbanffy
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/02/natives-of-the-caribbean-wiped-out-during-colonization-left-dna-behind/
======
scroot
> What would the Americas -- the world -- look like today if the Europeans
> never came here? Or at least, came and engaged respectfully

One historical scene in particular plays out this idea. It occurred as Cortes
marched across today's Mexico towards the city and ruler he had heard so much
about. At one point — not yet at the city — Moctezuma sent some emissaries to
greet him. They brought two others with them, who were sacrificed in front of
the Spaniards.

You can find accounts of this story from both sides: from the chronicles of
Cortes and his conquistadors (Bernal Diaz, for example) and from native
accounts (as told in The Broken Spears, as another example). And the differing
reactions to this event tell you everything. The Spaniards were appalled, some
even cried. But the emissaries were totally baffled by their reaction to the
gift.

What you see is two cultures separated by an almost unimaginable amount of
time, distance, and history. The clash that occurred would have been hard to
prevent whenever it happened. As others have pointed out, even basic biology
(immunity) was different enough to make an enormous difference without people
consciously having to do anything.

Peter Watson's "The Great Divide: History and Human Nature in the Old World
and the New" is a pretty fascinating examination of the overall contrasts
between Eurasian and New World cultures. It's a story that's hard to tell, and
there is a lot of speculation and ambiguity. What is clear, above all else, is
that the whole ordeal ended tragically, insomuch as it ever ended at all.

~~~
benbreen
I just wanted to add to this that it's not as if the Spaniards were appalled
by violence itself, just by the cultural difference in how it was applied. As
Montaigne pointed out, early modern Europeans were at least as cruel toward
enemies and captives, they just expressed it in different ways: i.e. via
public executions of witches and heretics, or the tortures of the Inquisition
and secular courts. Admittedly Montaigne is writing here about Tupis from
Brazil rather than Aztecs, but his point applies in both cases I think:

"After having treated their prisoners well for a long time, giving them all
the provisions that they could one, he who is the chief calls a great assembly
of his acquaintances. He ties a rope to one of the arms of the prisoner and on
the other end, several feet away, out of harm's way, and gives to his best
friend the arm to hold; and the two of them, in the presence of the assembled
group, slash him to death with their swords. That done, they roast him and eat
him together, sending portions to their absent friends. They do this, not as
is supposed, for nourishment as did the ancient Scythians; it represents
instead an extreme form of vengeance. The proof of this is that when they saw
that the Portuguese, who had allied themselves with their adversaries,
executed their captives differently, burying them up to the waist and firing
numerous arrows into the remainder of the body, hanging them afterward, [the
Tupi] viewed these people from another world, who had spread the knowledge of
many vices among their neighbors, and who were much more masterly than they in
every sort of evil, must have chosen this sort of revenge for a reason.
Thinking that it must be more bitter than their own, they abandoned their
ancient way to imitate this one.

I am not so concerned that we should remark on the barbaric horror of such a
deed, but that, while we quite rightly judge their faults, we are blind to our
own."

[http://www2.fiu.edu/~harveyb/oncannibal.htm](http://www2.fiu.edu/~harveyb/oncannibal.htm)

~~~
abusoufiyan
>As Montaigne pointed out, early modern Europeans were at least as cruel
toward enemies and captives, they just expressed it in different ways: i.e.
via public executions of witches and heretics, or the tortures of the
Inquisition and secular courts.

Yes, this was my instant thought. What a naive Eurocentric way to think of
history to insinuate that everyone except the Europeans were just barbaric
savages who killed and devalued life. As if the Europeans weren't fresh off
their own multi-year killing sprees for this and that reason that equally
would have baffled Native Americans.

~~~
pasabagi
I don't think the poster was insinuating that - if he's read Bernal Diaz, he
no doubt has few illusions about medieval europeans. They literally did stuff
like murdering fat people so they could use their fat to treat the wounds of
their horses. Nobody could read 'The Conquest of New Spain' and come away with
the impression that Cortez was anything but an absolutely awful, atrociously
evil person.

~~~
abusoufiyan
Then why would he say things like:

>What you see is two cultures separated by an almost unimaginable amount of
time, distance, and history. The clash that occurred would have been hard to
prevent whenever it happened.

Because surely there was more they had in common than that made them
different.

~~~
pasabagi
I don't know. Bernal Diaz definitely saw a lot of commonalities between the
Aztecs and the Spanish. I think the two differences that stuck out for me were
the Spanish were way more fanatical, and also way more likely to go back on
agreements if it would benefit them. I don't know what was going on in Spanish
politics at the time - but if Cortez is typical, it must have been an absolute
nest of vipers.

------
iamcasen
It's sad to me how little is known about the native Caribbean peoples. When I
read stories about a thriving island population, the Maya and Mexica empires,
and the new discoveries being made with Lidar in the jungles, I just feel a
sense of loss.

What would the Americas -- the world -- look like today if the Europeans never
came here? Or at least, came and engaged respectfully.

Think about it, much of what is considered traditional european food actually
came from the Americas: potatoes, tomatoes, chocolate. Italian cuisine
wouldn't exist without the Americas.

And now that the whole world has benefited, where are the people who gave it
all to the rest of us? Eradicated from existence.

~~~
oh_sigh
Keep in mind that native American groups were conquering, enslaving, and
destroying other cultures as well - but they rarely kept records of it. It is
not as if there was universal peace in the pre-Columbus Americas.

~~~
ebbv
This is a popular talking point for folks who don’t want to talk about the
effects of European colonization. It’s so absurd that it’s kind of hard to
unpack; which makes it kind of effective.

Nobody ever in any circumstances is stating or implying that native peoples
did not engage in war, murder, etc before and during the arrival and
colonization by Europeans. But that’s not the point. Native peoples died of
natural causes while diseases Europeans introduced wiped them out en masse.
The natural causes are not the point of the discussion.

The reality is there is a history of European empires colonizing and wiping
out native peoples. If we refuse to look at this critically and learn from it
then we have not improved beyond our ancestors. when this topic gets brought
up, don’t bring up straw men based distractions. Engage in the discussion
meaningfully with an open mind.

~~~
dmix
You're conveniently implying that Europeans intentionally brought smallpox and
other diseases to North and South America, as if it was a choice, which is
ridiculous. That's like blaming the rats or the residents sanitary practices
for spreading the black death which devistated European populations as well.

~~~
alwillis
“The spread of disease from European contact was not always accidental.
Europeans arriving in the Americas had long been exposed to the diseases,
attaining a measure of immunity, and thus were not as severely affected by
them. Therefore, disease could be an effective biological weapon.”

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_ep...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics)

The quote is from the section _Disease as a weapon against Native Americans_

~~~
dmix
Just because it was used on a few isolated occasions, but even then it was
already well advancing on it's own. It was already a natural phenomenon.

The westerns saw the absolute devastation by their mere presences was causing
unintentionally and occasionally decided to use it to their advantage
purposefully...but I highly doubt that absent those occasions that we would
have seen much different outcomes.

Absent total non-contact for the next two centuries...

------
curtis
> _But in Puerto Rico, most people have about 10 to 15 percent Native American
> DNA._

In one sense the original native american population of the Caribbean is gone,
but in another sense they're not.

