
Ask HN: Refusing to join meetings that require proprietary programs - throwaway83945
From now on I&#x27;ve made the conscious decision to stop joining meetings that requires installing the usual proprietary applications (Zoom, Skype, BlueJeans, etc).<p>I will accept joining Hangout calls even though it&#x27;s also proprietary, but at least it doesn&#x27;t require that I run a random executable on my personal computer.<p>Is anyone else also doing this? What are the challenges you had to face? I am well aware going this direction also means losing a few potential clients.
======
bartread
I'm assuming the recent Zoom fiasco has pushed you to this, but I'm not so
sure it's is an approach that's going to serve you well. It's quite likely to
make you look difficult to work with in the eyes of some.

Here's an example: I _hate_ WebEx. I mean, _REALLY_ hate WebEx. It's a
totally, utterly, inexusably bad, piece of turdware. There's always some drama
with AV or somebody not being able to get into the call, which without fail
wastes at least 5 minutes at the beginning of the meeting. It also obnoxiously
announces latecomers, interrupting whatever discussion is going on. I hate it.
I've had to deal with the damn cursed thing wasting so much of mine, and
others, time over the years that I consider it utterly beyond the pale. More
than this, call quality is often marginal at best, and it seems to deal with
choppy connections much worse than many of the other options.

But guess what?

Some people have WebEx mandated as their corporate standard so they have to
use it. And others aren't that computer savvy but they have WebEx installed
and know how to use it. In every other case I just don't want the first
substantive conversation I have with somebody be about how I refuse to use
WebEx.

So sometimes I use WebEx too.

The point is this: pick your battles. From time to time you're going to deal
with clients and customers whom you have to have difficult conversations with.
Do you really want one of those conversations, and likely one of the first
conversations you have, to be about videoconferencing software?

Do you really want your position on videoconferencing software to set the tone
of your ongoing relationship?

~~~
tomjen3
In your case you could state that you strongly discourage the usage of that as
it call quality is so poor that it is know to strongly negativity effect
client outcomes.

In ops case he is going to to come across as an anoying extremist.

~~~
bartread
I actually did that after a particularly bad WebEx call, suggesting we try
Zoom (ironically) for our next call. Anyway, although generally better, Zoom
also proved to be something of a disaster so there were obviously other
factors at play. We then switched to Fuze for the next call (client's new
corporate standard), and it was still a bit ropey.

After that I decided it was best to just roll with it whatever they use
because, with any videoconferencing or VOIP service, it's impossible to
guarantee good performance on the day.

Still, I maintain that WebEx has been a fiasco ninety-plus percent of the time
I've used it, which is way worse than anything else. The majority of the time
Zoom, Hangouts, and even Microsoft's Teams seem to work well.

------
mcs_
Clients first.

Clients first.

I do support, 24/7, I get s..t from anything, including WhatsApp. After that I
have the chance of reorganize the requests into my favorite task manager.

Customers just want to know you are there...

Clients first, and always replay via email. Be consistent in accept from any
channel, replay, report, notify via email.

~~~
bigiain
So. Much. This.

This also applies to colleges as well as clients.

If "meetings" implies "work" (which it _strongly_ does to me), then you use
whatever the meeting requires.

Your job is to do the work. Not to dictate and ensure FOSS purity amongst co
workers and clients.

On your _own_ hardware and for your personal comms, sure - knock yourself out.
I have a similar refusal to use Facebook/Twitter for social/personal stuff. It
means I get "left out" of some things where no-one remembers to mention to me
an event organised exclusively thru FB, and I'm OK with that. Your boss should
not be OK with you missing meetings or pissing off clients because you refuse
to use Skype. Deal with it, perhaps while encouraging change from the inside
without making annoying demands on everybody else - or quit. (Or be a jerk and
wait until you get fired for it...)

------
anbop
I would not hire a vendor who presented such odd requirements to me as I would
see it as trying to use my company as a vehicle for your personal crusade. The
installation point is valid, but I would expect it to be nulled by offering
you company-owned hardware to work on.

------
sbr464
Just use a VM or extra laptop. Client work and business in general is a
combination of tradeoffs. Typically clients are coming to you to alleviate a
stress in one category. Don’t add another layer.

~~~
bArray
Exactly, I have a few VMs ready to spin-up just for this kind of thing. People
or companies always want you to run some random crapware which I will never
run on my actual system.

The other point here is also clearly security - one compromised client's
crapware shouldn't compromise the rest.

------
dimitar
You use it to communicate with potential clients? I would offer an alternative
to them and I think most of them will follow, but it is more of an annoyance
than a serious issue to lose business over.

On a separate note 10 years ago there was a serious movement to adopt open
protocols like Jabber and SIP and now even open-source communities are happy
in using Slack and JIRA. Looking at you Clojurians.

~~~
ken
> now even open-source communities are happy in using Slack and JIRA

That just means these systems aren't so hated that they have 0 users among
those communities.

There are open-source communities I no longer participate in, purely because
of the annoying collaboration tools they switched to. Just because some people
are happy with a tool doesn't mean everyone is. It means a few people in
charge chose a tool, and they're implicitly selecting their community from the
people who are OK with that tool.

I don't know what the story is with Clojure that you refer to, but I've never
had any trouble getting Clojure help on good ol' IRC. I've never left an open-
source project for sticking with simple classic tools that work.

~~~
dimitar
The clojurians slack seems to be the most active community, unfortunately. I'm
glad that there are people in IRC too.

------
executesorder66
> Is anyone else also doing this?

Kinda. I refuse to use any software that doesn't work on Linux. Open source is
preferred, but at least give me something that works. I'm not going to install
some shitty OS just so that I can use a chat app, or whatever.

> What are the challenges you had to face?

None at all. Most people at my company use windows, and Skype for business to
do text and video chat. If they want to send me a message via that, I tell
them that skype doesn't work on Linux so they must use something else. If they
don't want to use something else, then we don't have the video chat.

This is all fine for internal communication. If you have to deal with clients,
then that's a more complicated issue.

------
paulcarroty
> proprietary applications (Zoom, Skype, BlueJeans, etc).

> I will accept joining Hangout calls

You're strange, really. Use __GigantiC __private data pump - Google and ignore
Zoom & BlueJeans.

~~~
throwaway83945
I don't like Google (for privacy and other reasons); however, I can join a
Hangout call with a regular Firefox browser without installing additional
plugins.

Yes, that doesn't mean I am comfortable with using Hangout, but what are the
alternatives? Jitsi?

~~~
numlock86
If "running in the browser without plugins" and getting your "I am against
propriety software X, Y and Z, so I only use propriety software A and
B!"-attitude openly communicated are your only concerns you could use Discord
as well. You will probably reach a lot more people than with Hangouts, too.

------
ussrlongbow
I had such guy in my team, he was fired pretty soon.

------
tlb
Buy a second, cheap laptop for videoconferencing, and don't put anything
valuable on it.

~~~
ToFab123
or run them inside a VM.

~~~
throwaway83945
I use a QEMU VM for most of the projects I work with (rails, node, python,
etc).

That said, I already tried using zoom with a QEMU VM but I was never able to
get the microphone jack to work with the VM.

------
cf
I make use of [https://github.com/strukturag/spreed-
webrtc](https://github.com/strukturag/spreed-webrtc) . I self-host and this
gives me the ability to offer a high-quality video or voice stream for
somebody. While I still have some bugs when contacted from an iPhone, it has
been a generally easy option.

Alternatively, there are webrtc solutions like talky.io and appear.in which
work well enough. I have never had a client have an issue with these
solutions, and which I choose is more a function of how much I trust my own
setup with the goal being to move all interactions to my self-hosted
solutions.

------
cgrealy
It depends on who you are meeting with.

If it's a FOSS collab, this seems like a reasonable stance to take. If it's in
a professional capacity, eh, I honestly couldn't be bothered hiring or working
with anyone under these kinds of restrictions.

~~~
numlock86
What's the relation with FOSS and Hangouts, though? Also, are there any
commonly used existing FOSS solutions?

~~~
cgrealy
No idea.

------
beering
It's usually been salespeople trying to sell me stuff when I've been asked to
use proprietary video plug-ins. The calls with clients usually are scheduled
by my side and use our choice (now usually Hangouts or Uberconference, both of
which work in Firefox without additional executables).

I always just join the call-in number on the calendar invite. If needed, I
just say something along the lines of, "couldn't get the plug-in installed,
sorry". Not usually been a problem other than missing the screen-share
presentation.

------
davewasthere
Zoom, Gotomeeting, Skype, SkypeForBusiness(Lync), Hangouts, Some shitty free
meeting telephone service, Whatsapp, Email, Trello, etc...

Whatever is convenient for the customer really. Often though, you get the
chance to recommend a tech to someone, so take that opportunity, but I figure
that I'm the tech guy. If they've got a meeting software that they're happy
with, well the least I can do is fit in.

I'm not too worried having a few smaller meeting-based apps on my machine
though.

------
mcpherrinm
BlueJeans and Zoom both don't require installing a proprietary application, so
this isn't a problem I have ever faced.

You don't need to lose clients; just don't install the app. Both support
joining calls from a web browser, or dialing in from a phone number. Skype
also has some kind of web client but I don't know if it does video calls, or
only chat.

You are setting yourself up for a moral dilemma that doesn't exist.

------
lone_haxx0r
I have a "clean" hard drive and a "dirty" hard drive.

The clean hard drive runs Linux and I carefully curate the software that I
install.

The dirty hard drive runs Windows 7. I use it only when I need to do something
with Windows. I never log into my bank or anything important using the dirty
hard drive, so I feel relatively free to install malwaresque software on it.

~~~
throwaway83945
Does it not annoy you having to reboot all the time?

~~~
lone_haxx0r
Not really. I think it's a lower price to pay in comparison to:

(a) Using a "dirty" computer as my daily driver. (I wouldn't sleep at night)

(b) Not being able to use proprietary programs in case of emergency.

I used to boot into Windows everyday when I played League of Legends, but now
I only boot into it when I need MS Word (clients love Word for some reason) or
something like that.

If your computer is powerful, running a "dirty" VM is another viable option.

~~~
suramya_tomar
I use
Codeweavers([https://www.codeweavers.com/](https://www.codeweavers.com/)) on
my Debian system to run Word and other MS Office products and haven't faced
any issues so far. Office was a major reason for me as well to boot into
windows and with this setup I don't need to.

------
cavisne
If your concern is about installing an untrusted executable. Zoom actually has
a web client now. For the others you could pick a platform that’s already
sandboxed like iOS or Android.

Or these platforms tend to support dialling in from a phone. You can even walk
to a pay phone and dial in from there with cash.

~~~
bigiain
I would listen to an argument that Zoom's recent behaviour makes them
potentially too untrustworthy to even allow them to run javascript in a
browser...

------
unixhero
It's absolutely always Skype for Business where I am making my monthly income.
This will not fly in a corporate setting.

Also, Skype for Business & Teams works really well.

I'd like to live in a world where free and open solutions existed - with
feature parity and quality of Skype for Business.

------
ch_123
+1 to a VM or a 'burner' laptop - this is how I've generally seen this problem
solved before. Many people (particularly in large corps) are actively
prohibited from using other solutions by IT and/or Legal policies.

------
logicchains
I do a variant of this with open source projects: refuse to participate in
community interaction over a proprietary platform, e.g. Slack (Clojure uses
that). It's a way to support open source with relatively minimal personal
cost.

------
sixtypoundhound
Key point: "download and install an executable"

Yes, I'm in agreement on this one. The nice thing about a good old fashioned
phone call is you can't hijack my life during the process....

~~~
ulzeraj
Same here. I do not use anything that needs a java runtime or accept MS office
documents that I cant open with alternative office suites. Also “keep your
hands out of my kernel” so no weird third party drivers or hooks and that
includes third party hypervisor software.

As for the meetings I can join those as long as there is an iOS app I can
install on my iPad or iPhone.

------
6nomads
I often use my smartphone for such meetings, mostly Hangouts/Meet. But not
using Zoom and Skype at all will provide difficulties with clients.

------
dajbelshaw
When consulting, I've found that people really like zero-install video
conferencing solutions based on WebRTC (e.g. appear.in / Jitsi)

------
numlock86
> Is anyone else also doing this?

Can you provide some reasons other than a seemingly random statement like "run
a random executable on my personal computer", that apparently is based on some
specific certain personal perception? I'd call Skype anything but random ...
at least in comparison with Hangouts. What is your point?

Also you might want to change your title. You talk about not joining meetings
with propriety software, then mention Hangouts is okay, which - as you even
mention by yourself - is proprietary software.

tl;dr your post is really confusing and I am not sure what you are trying to
tell.

~~~
bigiain
> I'd call Skype anything but random

I suspect week ago, people would have said "It's not just 'some random
executable', it's _Zoom!_ What're they gonna do, leave an undisclosed web
server running on your machine that allows them to remotely install whatever
software they want? Ah ha! You're so paranoid!!!"

~~~
numlock86
And how exactly is Hangouts better? I mean I sort of get your argument and
what you are trying to tell, but what's your punch line here?

~~~
bigiain
At least some people trust Google more than they trust Zoom?

~~~
throwaway83945
I don't, and I wish I can quit using gmail too, but I still need to find the
alternative.

~~~
numlock86
And what about my initial question?

~~~
throwaway83945
Yes, that statement was contradictory and I realize I should stop using
Hangouts too.

Does that answer your question?

------
bittercynic
I borrow a laptop from work for zoom meetings and the like, and it seems like
a reasonable compromise to me.

------
mrleinad
Care to elaborate on the reasons?

~~~
reificator
I'd assume for issues like this:
[https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-
fla...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-flaw-video-
conference-websites-hijack-mac-cameras)

------
riffraff
Bluejeans works fine in the browser too, so if hangouts is fine so is BJN.

------
sombremesa
You can join zoom meetings on your phone without installing anything.

~~~
throwaway83945
I don't have a smartphone.

~~~
azhenley
The cost of losing clients is probably far more than the cost of a cheap phone
or laptop.

~~~
ken
Clearly -- and therefore, throwaway83945 must be doing it for non-monetary
reasons.

Why is everyone offering suggestions for roundabout ways to do exactly what OP
"made the conscious decision" not to do? That's not helpful.

------
willnz
So that means you're forcing others to install Google Chrome or Mozilla
Firefox onto their computer as they're the only web browsers that currently
support Google Hangouts.

------
the_common_man
Use snap or flatpak?

~~~
regecks
I like the sentiment and practice it myself, but you need to be careful with
snaps. They more often than not come with the home[1] interface connected by
default. To me, that somewhat defeats the purpose of running the snap.

1\. [https://docs.snapcraft.io/home-interface](https://docs.snapcraft.io/home-
interface)

------
artemisyna
Does your company not offer a corporate laptop with these executables pre-
installed (and presumably, internally managed by corporate IT)?

~~~
throwaway83945
I work from home (remotely) so I tend to use my personal stuff.

------
pfarnsworth
Despite their recent issues, Zoom is mostly innocuous and the single best
video conferencing software I've ever used. I don't think it's that big of a
deal. Skype on the other hand, I'll never use.

If it's part of a job, then if you're not talking about a company-supplied
laptop, then get a cheap laptop yourself, or maybe you can install a VM and
install the software on there and give it access to a cheap USB camera.

