
Iceland radically cut teenage drug use - known
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/10/iceland-knows-how-to-stop-teen-substance-abuse-but-the-rest-of-the-world-isn-t-listening
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nabla9
Since Nordic countries are very similar in many ways, Finnish social
scientists specializing on youth recently visited Iceland in attempt to learn
about the system and wrote a report about it (in Finnish)
[https://www.nuorisotutkimusseura.fi/nakokulma53](https://www.nuorisotutkimusseura.fi/nakokulma53)

Summary:

* They didn't find any clear Icelandic model. Icelandic politicians promoting it. Icelandic researchers don't know if it exists.

* Icelandic experts are not unanimous that there is causal link between the advertised methods and effects. Halldór Hauksson has noted that increasing the age of adulthood with two years might have been the real cause. Many young people having problems stayed within the children programs and could be treated under them and not as adult alcoholics.

* It's very adult oriented model. Teenagers are just subjects.

* There was clear distrust against unsupervised gatherings among teenagers. Adults don't seem to see any value or learning in stuff that young people do among themselves.

* Nobody have studied what teenagers think about the system. Apparently they didn't even think to ask it.

* There are parts of the system that might violate agreements that protect children rights. (Yes, Nordic countries take things like United Nations Declaration of the Rights of the Child seriously) Some methods violate Finnish constitution of equality and equal rights (when people are subject to government actions they must have an opportunity to voice their opinion) so they can't be directly used.

If you look at other things like alcohol use, things don't look good.

* Teenage suicides have grown off the chart. Boys: 42.5 suicides per 100k. For comparison Finland 12, Sweden 8.5, Norway 6.5, Denmark 5.5

* Psychotropic medication among teenagers if many times what it is in other Nordic countries. UN children rights commission has notified Iceland about child medication.

~~~
hans1729
> If you look at other things like alcohol use, things don't look good.

What? Why is alcohol not regarded as a drug in this kind of research
environment? Is the aim of this research to save teenagers from drug abuse, or
is the aim to have lower numbers of _illegal-drug_ -abuse?

Overall, this seems questionable at best. Not letting teenagers spending
unsupervised time _surely_ has ripple effects in most, if not all, areas of
society, the most of which I'd consider highly undesirable (not granting
autonomy leads to severe psychological issues down the line)

~~~
fhars
Given that the article talks about Icelandic kids no longer being heavy
drinkers and the fact that nabla9 can read Finnish and so is probably not a
naive English speaker, that sentence may just be an erroneous version of an
intended _" If you look at other things_ than _alcohol use "_.

Both "like" and "than" express comparisons, that may cause confusion.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Tangent: this neatly illustrates that trying to express yourself in a foreign
language and failing outright, such that what you said doesn't make any sense,
is not actually the biggest problem you can run into. It's much worse when you
try to express yourself and come out with a perfectly-formed sentence that
means something quite different from what you were hoping.

It's easy for people to make adjustments allowing for your badly-formed
sentences. It's much harder for people to make adjustments allowing for the
possibility that even though you said something natural, you might have meant
something else entirely.

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donnaru
Hi, person from Iceland here. Drug use has actually been going up since these
numbers were reported. It's true that alcohol use went down compared to the
decades before but you must understand teenage drinking was so common. It's
the only thing teenagers used to do for years and years. For us to get these
numbers down is groundbreaking yes but drinking is still a huge problem for
Iceland and drugs kind of just took over from alcohol.

It's true though that the increased focus in activity such as sports etc does
actually work. As soon as the city allowed people to use a sort of point
system were they get x amounts of points per year which can be used for sports
and such things got much better. This means poor families can also send their
kids to activities which is really positive.

Drugs in general are really popular now. The drug market in Iceland in general
has been growing extremely fast over the past years and it's become really
professional in terms of quality and delivery. We have a relatively small
police force right now and the size of the drug market is way beyond their
control.

I just find it kind of misleading everytime I see these articles. It's true we
got drinking down but in general Iceland deals with a lot of depression, a lot
of suicides and a lot of narcotic related issues every year. We have a very
high suicide rate per capita, especially for men.

What I mean is that these articles express this like we got rid of the
problem, we totally did not. The fact that the state gives credits for sport
activities etc each year is an extremely positive thing though.

~~~
lemmonii
Absolutely, I was in an Icelandic elementary school about a decade ago. While
i was in school i saw a general decline in anti-social behaviour, now in that
same school i see a dramatic rise in anti-social behaviour (violence drugs &
drug use) through my siblings.

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OliverJones
I volunteer at a drop-in center for kids at a local public housing project.
For what it's worth, we've started springing for music, dance, martial-arts
lessons for our teens. These are the kids who can't afford the fees for school
sports, and who don't have reliable ways to get around (parents with cars).

It's making a big difference. We're facepalming for not starting to use our
budget for this purpose sooner. These young are getting more engaged with
school.

We explicitly avoid taking surveys about substance type stuff, so it's hard to
know for sure how much a difference it makes. Plus the program is too young.
(We don't take surveys because "n" is too small to ensure anonymity and the
kids know it. We have a "no judgement ethic to uphold.)

But the kind of stuff suggested in this article seems to work so far.

My purpose in working with these kids is convincing some of them "do your math
homework, and you'll get a good job. It's your ticket out of housing."

~~~
tomcam
Would love to hear more about this. Do you have a blog or something? Where is
the center located?

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michalu
Iceland has a population of a provincial town. I noticed it's often featured
in news headlines as some sort of an example in relation to other countries
this fact being omitted.

~~~
praptak
Yeah, small population size creates fake outliers. "Rural states have both the
highest and the lowest rate of kidney cancer" \- what they in fact have is
small populations, so they just have much larger variance.

~~~
lonelappde
It's not "just". Cancer isn't purely random on its own authority. It has
causes.

Variance could be due variation in environment, pollution, personal habits,
quality of record keeping, and many other meaningful or spurious causes.
Outliers and 95%iles are worth studying, not merely writing off.

Iceland's models might not work for larger countries due to size difference,
and might not work for other cities due to differences in sovereignty
structure, but it's worth investigating.

~~~
cortesoft
While the data might not be ‘just’ caused by random variance, it provides
little evidence that there is something more going on than just randomness.

You have no particular reason to study those cases more than anything else,
since the data we have does not suggest that there is anything actually going
on.

~~~
wolco
Things are not as simple as one or the other.

The uneven spread of heavy industry creates pockets where cancer rates are
higher becausw of environmental factors.

Random variance is responsible at a micro-level but at a macro level the trend
still holds true.

~~~
cortesoft
I wasn't making any claim about the actual causes... I was simply stating that
the statistical effect you see can be completely explained by random variance,
so you can't use the result as an argument for a cause. You have to search
elsewhere for that evidence.

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mnm1
Compare this to growing up as a teenager in suburbia. I could not play any
sports, despite wanting to very badly. My neighborhood had few kids, spread in
housing developments that stretched for miles. I loved basketball but there
were no courts anywhere. My parents worked till 5, so I did not have someone
to pick me up after school activities. I had zero after school activities my
entire life. This was in one of the richest, "best" (that means whitest)
schools in NJ. I had a hoop at home and would play with my dad and sister
sometimes. That's it. There was literally nothing else. Just coming home after
school and locking myself in with my sister. Luckily we had each other. I
read, taught myself programming, watched tv, etc. but nothing social. Maybe
once a month or even less I could get a ride or my friend could get a ride and
we could spend time hanging out. Otherwise it was just loneliness outside of
school. I never got the opportunity to learn how to socialize with peers
outside of school. I already had social anxiety. Almost suicidal. So of
course, when I had that first drink and the first weed smoke, it was heaven. I
thought drugs were the only way people socialized. I had finally discovered
something that made it bearable. Addiction was inevitable. Of course, it was.
Now, twenty years later I still have major issues socializing, still dealing
with addiction, still dealing with anxiety, still isolating. Suburban USA was
hell. I'm just lucky I don't enjoy opiates like my sister. I wouldn't wish
this upon my worst enemy.

Is it really a surprise that caring about children, giving them a chance to
learn and enjoy activities together makes them not want to get high? That's
what I'm doing now with my life, but it's hard to break old habits. I wish I
could have played sports in my teens. I wish I could have done many things and
learned to socialize and deal with feelings. I will never raise children in
such a horrific environment as the US. I'd rather be childless.

------
sebastianconcpt
_By 1992, his team in Denver had won a $1.2 million government grant to form
Project Self-Discovery, which offered teenagers natural-high alternatives to
drugs and crime. They got referrals from teachers, school nurses and
counsellors, taking in kids from the age of 14 who didn’t see themselves as
needing treatment but who had problems with drugs or petty crime.

“We didn’t say to them, you’re coming in for treatment. We said, we’ll teach
you anything you want to learn: music, dance, hip hop, art, martial arts.” The
idea was that these different classes could provide a variety of alterations
in the kids’ brain chemistry, and give them what they needed to cope better
with life: some might crave an experience that could help reduce anxiety,
others may be after a rush._

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coretx
Iceland has a population of 364,260. Changing the behavior of just one group
of teens would lead to "radically" different numbers. Especially considering
the fact that the bulk is concentrated at the capital Reykjavík.

Herefor numbers regarding Iceland should always be interpreted with great
caution since they are likely not projectable onto other countries.

~~~
loufe
It's a good point though I content that it depends on what you mean. I'd argue
that there are measures which are enforcable and feasible on a small scale
which may be far less so on a larger scale (ex: the USA) due as much to
politics as anything else. I don't think there's any reason to same the same
measures, were they applied likewise elsewhere, would not be as effective.

~~~
ksdale
I interpreted the parent's comment to mean that it could just be an artifact
of the small size of the country. After all, there are almost certainly cities
in the US where hundreds of teenagers have recently decided not to do drugs,
but it wouldn't impact national statistics at all. If hundreds of teenagers in
Reykjavik decide not to do drugs, it looks like they have "solved" the
problem.

~~~
AstralStorm
On the other hand, why not at least try out the approach? (Including the nasty
curfew.) Is USA so poor they cannot get $250 in to send teens to do
extracurriculars/sports?

Iceland is not exactly super rich.

~~~
coretx
Iceland might very well be the richest country (Non city /oil state) in the
world per capita. Measured both in monetary and non monetary terms. See:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iceland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iceland)

------
econcon
I think bigger issue these days is anabolic steroid abuse which goes
unnoticed. And only few people die from it, but it might lead to greater
health care cost as most abusers die from cardiac issues young, 30s or 40s.

In many countries, it's pushed underground but they aren't hard to acquire
like hard drugs.

There should be companies searching for safer compounds which help achieve
same results without any of the long term risks.

~~~
Mountain_Skies
Wouldn't dying in your 30s or 40s allow you to avoid the elderly years when
you rack up the most health care expenses?

~~~
jonnypotty
If you killed yourself at 10 you could avoid the difficult teenage years too.

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RocketSyntax
At 300,000 people and 8 political parties - the people still kind of ARE the
state.

~~~
bbarn
They are an incredibly homogenous people as well, so generally, most are in
favor of the same types of social programs, as they almost all benefit from
them. Income inequality is incredibly low, some of the best in the world. So
yes, most of the ruling class are the people.

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d_burfoot
> Milkman’s doctoral dissertation concluded that people would choose either
> heroin or amphetamines depending on how they liked to deal with stress.
> Heroin users wanted to numb themselves; amphetamine users wanted to actively
> confront it.

This seems kind of silly in retrospect. In the US, most heroin users chose
heroin because they got addicted to prescription painkillers, and heroin has a
similar effect while being much cheaper.

~~~
jonnypotty
Loads of my friends deal with stress by actively confronting it and none like
numbing themselves..weird. Its almost like they chose amphetamines cos raving
on herion doesn't really work.

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pvaldes
Maybe tenageers changed old standard drugs by digital adictions...

~~~
dqpb
I would rather my teenager have a digital addiction than a drug addiction.

~~~
Nursie
I think I'd rather mine used drugs socially (and infrequently) and had a
social life....

Both of these answers are overly simplistic however.

~~~
Razengan
You can have a social life while having a "digital addiction", with fewer
risks to your health than a drug addiction, social or not.

~~~
Nursie
I'm not sure you can, and there are health risks from digital addiction too.

My point was that the original statement was overly broad and simplistic.

~~~
Razengan
Unless “social life” just means “physical proximity to other people” for you,
social interactions over the internet while having a “digital addiction” can
be more meaningful than social interactions with fellow drug addicts.

~~~
Nursie
> Unless “social life” just means “physical proximity to other people” for you

It would certainly be part of it, interacting IRL, yes.

> can be more meaningful than social interactions with fellow drug addicts.

Can be, sure, but aren't necessarily, and people with digital addictions can
become very isolated and have health problems from inactivity.

I'm not trying to say drug addiction is a good thing, but that the initial
comment was silly. Not all drug use is problematic, and digital addiction can
have a real impact.

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mschuster91
Who would have thought: yet another indicator that drugs of all kind (yes,
including coffee!) are basically self-medication by people to deal with
external stress.

Happy to hear that there's an ever growing base of data to support this, but
sadly _acting_ upon that data is not exactly top priority for politicians :/

~~~
smabie
That's not true. A lot of people's stress is internal. And what's the
difference anyways? The human condition is to suffer, get old, and die. Sounds
to me like drugs are probably the most rational and logical thing you can do,
besides suicide. I'm being a little bit of a downer, I know, but the reality
of life is pretty terrible. Fortunately, me and most others can just ignore
what life is about (most of the time) and carry on like anything we do makes a
difference.

Moreover, if politicians wanted to act upon it, they would just legalize all
drugs and call it a day.

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quijoteuniv
Is interesting how americans have the need of discrediting iceland &
scandinavia in general. You can read that between the lines of the comments.
Really great countries to live, people gets a real chance at developing their
potential.This article is an example of that.

~~~
Mountain_Skies
It's simple recognition that Iceland is a very homogenous place so homogenous
solutions to problems are more likely to be effective. Iceland doesn't even
allow baby names that aren't listed in their book of acceptable names. Now try
to come up with a solution for homelessness that works in both Spokane,
Washington and Coral Gables, Florida. They're very different populations with
very different needs. It's great that Iceland has been able to reduce youth
drug use but it's not applicable to the wider world except in limited
circumstances.

~~~
herbstein
> Now try to come up with a solution for homelessness that works in both
> Spokane, Washington and Coral Gables, Florida

Isn't homelessness generally handled at the city and county levels? Both
places can independently look at how different areas of the world have
combated homelessness, and also share their successes (or failures) with each
other without being forced to both do the same exact thing.

~~~
zdragnar
Freedom of movement between municipalities makes most attempts at solving
homelessness difficult if not impossible. NY simply shipped them out; cities
with nice climates and access to welfare see a large influx from elsewhere.
The harder a city works to solve the problem, the bigger the problem becomes.

A friend's mother- a chronic drug user who lived off of welfare- moves from
state to state as she uses up whatever benefits they offer.

Not all people are in that situation or abuse the system like that, of course,
but small countries with tighter borders have a much easier time dealing with
a less mobile population of homeless and indigent.

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mirimir
Maybe they just got better at hiding it.

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scotty79
Isn't gaming responsible for some fall in substance abuse just by giving kids
something to do?

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smabie
I would contend that video games, cell phones, etc have made a bigger
difference than anything else.

~~~
collyw
Other cities would likely show similar patterns if that was the case, no?

~~~
smabie
And they have. [https://teens.drugabuse.gov/blog/post/teens-drug-use-
lower-e...](https://teens.drugabuse.gov/blog/post/teens-drug-use-lower-ever-
mostly)

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harry8
Iceland. Population 300,000. Something to keep in mind.

