
Why I only work with startups - Swizec
http://swizec.com/blog/why-i-only-work-with-startups/swizec/2936
======
jplewicke
I know it's an easy analogy to reach for, but I wish that writers would think
twice before comparing some trivial inconvenience to being raped. You may have
just ruined the morning of a survivor of sexual assault.

There are dozens of other things you could say that would have the same
rhetorical effect without trivializing a severe problem, and it's beyond
impolite not to. All you have to do is write "Nonstartups are just horrible to
work with, like standing in front of an automatic baseball pitching machine."

~~~
coderdude
This should not be the top comment. It should be somewhere near the bottom of
this page in light gray. It has nothing to do with the article and is
completely off-topic. We should not pussy-foot around worrying about whether
someone may be reminded of something that was traumatic in their lives because
you mentioned a word.

HN has determined that this is the most insightful thing you need to know
about the article: That the guy used the word rape.

~~~
synnik
Clearly, since it IS the top comment, HN as a whole disagrees with you.

I believe that discussion about appropriate language and communication styles
is very applicable to HN. We're trying to be a better, more insightful
discussion board with higher quality than other sites. Better writing is one
way to do that, so it seem like a perfect discussion point.

~~~
coderdude
Nope. Some portion of HN disagrees with me, sure. There are also people who
use "this." and who make pun threads. Just because there's some people doing
it that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, that it's right for HN, that
it adds to the discussion, or that I'm wrong for not liking it.

Discussion about appropriate language and communication styles is indeed
applicable to HN. And when an article about that gets up-voted we're all free
to discuss our feelings on the topic.

~~~
lotharbot
HN community standards treat meta-commentary of this sort as _almost always_
on topic and appropriate.

Since the top comment was insightful and correct, and may be even more
valuable than the original article, it's been upvoted.

------
mgkimsal
I guess I'd need to know the definition of 'startup'. It's a word so abused
these days many people consider themselves a 'startup' when it's just a guy
and an idea.

Do you mean someone with $x in funding and a revenue stream looking to grow?

Do you mean someone with an idea who works on it at night?

Do you mean "facebook" (which some people will continue to consider a
'startup' until they IPO)?

The only problems I faced with doing govt work so far is the paperwork. It
_seems_ convoluted, but really isn't generally that much more than a contract
any mid-size company might require.

Many smaller companies (and what we'd now call 'startups') I've worked with
give me the "gosh, we just spent $42k on this other company and they weren't
any good and now we don't have any budget, but if you do this work for us
we'll pay you back later with some more work or great referrals!". That's the
situation I used to run in to more often than not. That tended not to happen
with larger companies. Well, the wasting of money might have happened, but
they'd find money in some budget to engage me if they wanted me.

------
toxicity
I would say the only startup worth working on is your own.

Working at someone else's startup is a recipe for getting exploited -
overworked and underpaid. And the worst thing about it is that it's all
couched in an atmosphere of guilt trips and taking-it-for-the-team.

Perhaps there are exceptions. I just haven't seen any. I'd rather work for The
Man in my day job in a cold corporate environment where everything is explicit
from the get-go, get well paid for it and crank out code for my own startup in
my free time.

~~~
MicahWedemeyer
As a consultant/freelancer, the relationship is often very different then
employer-to-employee. If you're billing hourly then long hours directly relate
to large invoices. You're in the driver's seat for how much you want to work.

You can get a lot of the great benefits of startup work (cool people, small
teams, fast pace) and avoid a lot of the pitfalls (low salary, worthless
equity, guilt trips).

~~~
raarky
without giving out hard numbers (unless you want to), what is the average
comparative rate that a startup pays compared to a larger company?

Are they on the same pay scale or do they pay less since it's a "startup" a
money can be tight

~~~
Swizec
For me personally I have managed to get higher hourly rates from startups than
larger companies. Simply because they actually value me and my work and can
see it directly reflected on their bottom line.

I could probably get better rates at bigger companies, but being a small guy
in a big pond of what, to them, looks like interchangable cogs I don't have a
lot of bargaining power.

How do you convince someone who doesn't know about this stuff, that it's
better to pay you fairly than pay peanuts to the neighboor kid? (for what they
think is equal work done at equal quality since they don't care)

------
tyler_ball
Whats with this trend of illustrating blog posts with Flickr photos that don't
illustrate anything?

~~~
lkrubner
As far as I know, this particular trend was started by Phillip Greenspun back
in 1994:

<http://philip.greenspun.com/sql/>

I recall many people accussed him of hypocrisy, since, in the mid 90s, he was
a big advocate of graphically simple web pages, pages that could easily go
over a modem and a phone line, yet he bloated his pages with images that had
nothing to do with the content of the page.

~~~
mechanical_fish
Greenspun was writing articles specifically for web and photo nerds. Just as
the developer-oriented sites were the first to drop support for IE6, I'm sure
he felt safe offering less-than-optimal support for AOL users with dialup
modems.

I always liked Greenspun's idiosyncratic photos. It was fun to try and spot
thematic links between the photos and the text. Usually they were so subtle
that you doubted their very existence, but sometimes they were obvious and
funny.

------
lisperforlife
This is true. I've found that I find it vastly enjoyable working with
startups. Even if it is a couple of guys with an idea, they take time to talk
about the background and they are in the selling mode. I feel more energetic
and worthwhile working with people who value my effort. People in big
companies do not value you as most of them do not value themselves. I worked
for a big company. I know how I felt then. Now I have a new found respect for
people doing things on their own. Be it freelancers/entrepreneurs or craftsmen
of any kind. It is easy to miss it if you are allowed only to press "a" on the
keyboard and you optimize your life and efforts around that. Sometimes you get
promoted and get to press "b". They may not pay you for it and term it a
lateral promotion. Nevertheless, getting out into the real world and getting
jobs is an experience that has made me simultaneously humbler and wiser.

Overall, I agree with the author as well. I have said no to several jobs
because I did not feel that I share the client's vision. Especially, when you
choose to be in an underserved segment, you can name your price and your
terms.

------
bryanthankins
This is good though I would argue that most of this is true for small to mid-
size businesses (<200 people) as well without the extreme risk of not getting
paid or working 80 hr weeks that happens at startups.

~~~
Swizec
In my experience it's much likelier there will be complications with being
paid when it comes to small to mid-size businesses than startups.

~~~
liljimmytables
I expect it depends on the particular company, but I have noticed that there
is a direct correlation between having a fully-staffed accounts department and
paying your contractors on the last possible day you can get away with. (I'm
sure someone will tell me that "it's just good business," but it shows a lack
of empathy with small contractors who may be operating on a tight margin).

------
itmag
I've been running a sort of startup (a zero-budget print/online magazine) for
2 years and I whole-heartedly agree with this.

I would add to this:

8\. Open-ended work

You can improvise any way you want and pull from any toolbox you want. You can
take the work in unexpected directions on a whim.

9\. Platform for meeting interesting people

If you put out something of genuine value, you can use it as a kind of
leverage to get in touch with interesting people. It also becomes a form of
social honeypot (ie I get e-mails from interesting people from time to time
because of the magazine I run).

10\. Levels you up like crazy

You have to learn a bunch of stuff. My ability to execute a project and "git r
done" comes directly from Interesting Times Magazine.

11\. Gives you a sense of genuine achievement

Self-explanatory.

12\. Allows you to scratch the itch you get from reading business/selfhelp
materials

When I was only reading about stuff I was always going like "arrgghgh I need
to actually be _doing_ this". Scratching that itch feels GOOD.

------
GavinB
_they simply have no empathy for the poor freelancer trying to make a living
client to client._

If you are depending on one check from one client to come in so that you can
make rent this month, I think you should be looking at your own financial
practices, not anyone else's.

~~~
Swizec
It becomes a much bigger problem when the money you were counting on this
month, comes in five months later.

Yes, I've had that happen.

~~~
rick888
I've had this happen too. About 5 years ago I started a small consulting
company and I had roughly 10 clients. I eventually had to get a job because
clients realized I was small and would not pay me on time (sometimes 3 months
late) or at all. I also had no money for a lawyer.

Freelancing is a terrible way to make money. It's like you traded in one boss
for X where X is the number of clients you have.

------
dscape
because you are too lazy to START a startup? :)

~~~
Swizec
Haha, I've started a startup before :)

Sometimes it just makes more sense to put your own ideas on pause for a bit
and help others with theirs.

------
CPlatypus
I don't agree with the "no politics" point. Sure, there might be no politics
within the startup, but there can be a lot of politics involving investors and
their other portfolio companies, or partners and customers who are large/few
enough to drive product or technical direction, etc. I've been at startups
that have been told "don't do X because it will cannibalize stablemate Y's
market" by investors. I've recently become aware of a VC telling companies
"use stablemate Z's product and don't criticize it in public" situation. This
same pressure can be applied by customers and partners, driven by politics
within those larger companies, and can be hard for a small company to resist.
So don't think you won't need those political skills when your working at or
with a startup.

