
Why your desk job is slowly killing you - rdamico
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39523298/ns/health-mens_health/
======
niels_olson
Doc, here. I don't think the article is sensationalist at all. Here's a quick
list of basic steps I recommend

* standing desk: I love mine. 2x6 legs, 2x4 connecters, $50 at Home Depot, and 4 hours of work -- [http://www.flickr.com/photos/niels_olson/5097452401/lightbox...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/niels_olson/5097452401/lightbox/)

* live close enough to work to walk or ride. Ride to the train or ferry if necessary. (I ride 17 miles, take a train, then another 4 miles)

* Move to Southern California. I'm not kidding.

* Strength:

 __50 low crunches, 5n pushups, m half-down pullups

 __50 side crunches, 5(n-1) pushups, m-2 half-down pullups

 __50 crunches, 5(n-2) pushups, m-4 half-down pullups

 __50 opposite side crunches, 5(n-3) pushups, m-6 half-down pullups

 __50 crunches

 __Vary n and m to ability

* Eat food, not too much, mostly plants.

 __Michael Pollan, Unhappy Meals (Food, Inc; King Corn, and Omnivore's Dilemma
condensed into one essay)
--[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t....](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html)

 __Join the Slow Food
movement:<http://www.slowfood.com/about_us/eng/manifesto.lasso>

 __Four books I'd like to see in every kitchen:

 __* Deborah Madison, Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone (number one among
vegetarians, but also the vegetable cookbook everyone should have)
--[http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Cooking-Everyone-Deborah-
Ma...](http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Cooking-Everyone-Deborah-
Madison/dp/0767900146)

 __* Mark Bittman, Fish (If you can't cook fish after this, kill yourself)
--[http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Complete-Guide-Buying-
Cooking/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Complete-Guide-Buying-
Cooking/dp/0028631528)

 __* Harold McGee, On Food and Cooking (unrivaled, in depth, the go-to
resource for food hackers) --[http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-
Kitchen/dp/0...](http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-
Kitchen/dp/0684800012)

 __* Julia Child, Mastering the Art of French Cooking (the original food
hacker) --[http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Art-French-Cooking-
Vol/dp/03...](http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Art-French-Cooking-
Vol/dp/0375413405)

~~~
jamesteow
What do you recommend for people with weak joints? I can't stand for long
periods of time as my ankle gets really sore. I've done some exercises at the
gym to work on balance.

~~~
chipsy
Try isometric holds to build up the joints. I've had a lot of success with
them. The key reference on the subject:
[http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Hoffman/ic-adv/ic-
ad...](http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Hoffman/ic-adv/ic-adv-01.htm)

Why would isometrics work better than range-of-movement(using weights and
cardio) in this case? When doing static exercises you are simply pushing until
you're stopped by your weakest link, while in range-of-movement, momentum from
other muscles can help you cheat on the weak areas, so that even though you
expose many angles of contraction, not all of them are always fully
contracted. Hence you can end up with spots of underdevelopment.

I'm pretty sure static holds also help to counteract the sitting problem,
since flexing has a very relaxing effect on stiff muscles - it would follow
that flexing them as much as possible is an even better idea!

------
anthuswilliams
The researchers are comparing the time we spend walking against the time spent
walking by a bunch of theme park actors they hired? How absurd.

No doubt there were people in history who moved about more than we do. There
were also people who moved far less than we do, on account of being snowed in
all winter, or chained to a Lowell sewing machine. And I think our diet is on
average, better than theirs was. I don't claim to know the causes of the
increase in heart disease, but I know specious pop sociology when I see it.

~~~
mechanical_fish
Until _very_ recently being snowed in all winter meant constantly feeding a
fire with wood or coal. Splitting wood or carrying coal is a lot more work
than typing.

Meanwhile, I don't think you can assert that sewing at the professional level
is approximately as sedentary as keyboard work without data. The cloth doesn't
cut itself. It doesn't load itself. You are constantly moving your hands and
arms. Until the advent of electrical controls the machines had to be clutched
and unclutched by hand, even if the actual power came from a central belt
drive system. And so on.

------
pyre
I imagine a lot of people will weigh in on standing desks, but what about just
kneeling at a desk? Would that be better than sitting in a chair? What about
working while in some sort of yoga position?

~~~
rubashov
The standing desk thing is silly. Just stroll around the block every few
hours.

~~~
mechanical_fish
I get paid for typing. Strolling, not so much.

I don't mean to suggest that walking and thinking is useless. It's quite
productive, actually. But theoretical hacking will only get you so far. Sooner
or later you have to type things, and read the results, and read the manuals
and blogs that explain the results, and I can't really do much of that while
strolling around the block.

~~~
rubashov
Must be a rough gig if you can't take ten minutes here and there. How do you
poop?

~~~
pyre
I think that the point of the article was that taking a stroll now and then
does _not_ offset the 'damage' done by sitting. They were pretty much tearing
into the idea that you can offset the amount of sitting/inactivity in your
life by exercising to try and create some sort of canceling or equilibrium
effect.

------
zumbojo
Companies that have vast numbers of adjustable desks (e.g. Fog Creek [1]): How
many developers use them in standing mode vs. sitting mode? Do many pick a
mode and stick with it forever, or do they change it up throughout the day?
And how many who are normally sedentary switch for a few days following a
story like this on HN (or the hailstorm of similar stories on Lifehacker not
too long ago)? :-P

Selfishly, my question can be boiled down to "build a standing desk or splurge
on a GeekDesk?", but I am genuinely interested in how people use them long
term.

[1]: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMVeHFrgOpE>

------
scotch_drinker
Several people have mentioned the Workfit which looks intriguing but I've also
thought about getting a GeekDesk. Anyone have experience with either or both?

<http://www.geekdesk.com/>

~~~
jfb
We all have GeekDesks at work, and love them. I usually switch from sitting to
standing once or twice a day (less so recently because I did my knee playing
hoops), and it's a nice change. I got into the habit at Apple because I had a
bad back and standing really relieved the discomfort; I'm thinking of getting
a WorkFit for the house (because space is constrained.)

------
83457
Anyone have a recommendation for an adjustable stand for monitor, keyboard and
mouse that can sit low on a normal desk but raise up 1-2 feet use while
standing? I'm not having any luck finding such a product.

~~~
solson
Full disclosure... I work for Ergotron. But Workfit - S is exactly what you
are describing and one of the most affordable on the market.

[http://www.ergotron.com/WorkFit/tabid/640/language/en-
US/def...](http://www.ergotron.com/WorkFit/tabid/640/language/en-
US/default.aspx)

~~~
b3b0p
Looks nice. I love the price, but I don't want to have to mount my monitor for
a few reasons.

I've been contemplating a geekdesk for ages, but at ~$800... I can't bring
myself to do it. I'm a little nomadic, live in a 1 bedroom, and not sure how
it will fit in a Mini Cooper or smaller SUV trunk.

------
evolvingstuff
A factor I would like to see controlled for would be the serum vitamin D
levels of the subjects. I'm guessing that at least some of these findings
could simply be the result of spending more time indoors.

------
gregwebs
Correlation is not causality. It seems that all these studies are simply
observing correlations.

Some of the things in this article are just wrong. For example that sitting
will cause "bad" forward pelvic tilt. Sitting generally eliminates forward
pelvic tilt- which is the real problem. Forward pelvic tilt (sticking the but
out) is the posture all humans used until recently in Western civilization.

Also, the idea that sitting will make you fatter because you aren't burning
calories is fairly silly. In that case, an hour at the gym would be able to
make up for all your sitting. At any rate, most people's appetites/metabolism
will simply adjust (read Good Calorie, Bad Calorie for an overview of the
obesity evidence).

All this being said, as a personal theory I consider sitting in a chair to be
harmful. Any time civilization does something like this it usually has bad
consequences. Sitting in chairs could be the number one thing we do that ruins
our flexibility. Humans are supposed to be able to squat with their butt on
the floor.

Standing while working is a fine alternative (and a treadmill desk would seem
even better). However, other postures are going to be required to start re-
gaining natural flexibility. I am experimenting now with different postures-
squatting, sitting on the ground, and standing with a bent back. It is
possible to work at a computer while doing all of these.

------
tgriesser
I bet using something like a treadmill desk would help.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPjN07JyVjo&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPjN07JyVjo&feature=player_embedded)

They say it works in the video for doing things like e-mail and phone calls...
maybe it would work for things that require more concentration...I wonder if
anyone has had experience doing something like this while writing code.

Looks like a neat idea either way.

~~~
zumbojo
The founders of Instructables seem to have a reasonably good treadmill desk +
code setup (though I personally couldn't tolerate his monitor configuration).

<http://www.instructables.com/id/Treadmill-Desk/>

~~~
Mod_daniel
I read this and went to craigslist just to see if it was as cheap as they
said. in chicago, there dozens of treadmills posted in the last 3 days and
easily ten or so at or less than $100.

------
andre
Even if you exercise, the more hours a day you sit, the greater your risk of
early death

~~~
joshfinnie
Here is a link to Men's Health's 10 Standards to Access Your Fitness Level.

<http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/be_fit/printer.php>

It was linked in the article. It is very interesting, even if you workout some
of these might be hard to obtain.

------
towelrod
I find it very hard to take this article seriously, since there are constant
interruption with things like "Work your entire body in 15 minutes with these
three moves for fast muscle" and "Tied to the treadmill? Try these seven ways
to burn more fat on the belt".

It reminds me very much of an old SNL skit with Jerry Seinfeld about "news-
at-11" style reporting. I can't find a better link than this one:

<http://snltranscripts.jt.org/99/99anewswatch.phtml>

But the whole thing is filled with quotes like "Connor, it's no bark and all
bite for golden retrievers and other so-called family dogs. What's causing
these sweet and furry creatures to viciously attack sleeping toddlers? Stay,
and we'll tell you in a minute.".

------
sliverstorm
So this debunks the idea that sporadic gym excercise making up a small portion
of your week is not enough to keep you healthy.

But what about intense, all-day excursions on the weekends? The kind that keep
your heart rate up all day long and leave you limp and beaten?

~~~
brown9-2
_debunks the idea that sporadic gym excercise making up a small portion of
your week is not enough to keep you healthy_

Did you mean to include that "not" in there?

------
audionerd
I recently saw a comparative review of budget standing desk options, and I
wish I would have bookmarked it. It was from someone who had evaluated a ton
of them, put them up as his own personal opinion.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?

------
rdamico
Seems pretty sensationalist to me. HN, please help debunk :)

~~~
dasil003
There's real research here with counterintuitive results that deserve honest
attention. Given the amount of brainpower here and the typical hacker
lifestyle, I'd say the risk of unwarranted rationalization is very high.

------
rdamico
Anyone have success reducing the number of hours sitting down while still
hacking just about all day/every day?

~~~
jcromartie
You can set up a stand-up desk arrangement. You will look like a weirdo if you
try this in a cube farm, though (I am speaking from experience).

It's better to have something that adjusts easily (like a counter-balanced
monitor arm and keyboard tray).

Ooh... like this! [http://www.ergotron.com/WorkFit/tabid/640/language/en-
US/def...](http://www.ergotron.com/WorkFit/tabid/640/language/en-
US/default.aspx)

~~~
andrewjshults
In an open office configuration it's pretty nice. I have a "standing" desk at
Dogpatch NYC (it's really just the standard Ikea desk all the way up + a
printer box for my laptop) and beyond the general standing benefits (more
mobility, less back pain, etc.) it's also nice to look up and not be staring
at a screen and actually see what people are up to (which is mostly staring a
screens).

The main downside I've seen is that greater mobility makes the kitchen (which
is only 15 feet away) way to easy to get to. I think I've replaced the extra
calories I burn with more snacks.

------
kiba
The Modern Healthy Lifestyle Checklist is growing.

1\. Barefoot running. (check for me)

2\. Paleolithic diet. (nope)

3\. Stand while hacking not siting. (nope)

#3 is easy to implement, just put the chair in the other room. #1 is already
done. #2 is hard to do because I don't make the choice to shop for X food plus
potato chips are tasty.

~~~
klochner
regarding #2, diet fads come and go every decade or so. imho the jury is still
out.

~~~
jpr
So what's your advice for the time being? Keep on shoving cheeseburgers to our
pieholes?

~~~
symkat
Or perhaps look at the way people eat in other countries outside of America
where most people aren't obese and compare notes.

~~~
pyre
Yay America bashing! Let's compare notes with Somalia (or <insert starving
nation here>)!

edit: The idea that "America == Bad" and also " !(America) == Good" is a
fallacy that seems to get up-voted way too often here (and celebrated in way
too many other places).

~~~
gommm
There are a lot of things the US do very well, it's a wonderfully
entrepreneurial country and is at the forefront of research and technology.
But like everywhere not all is perfect and food is not something where the US
shine.

As a european who went to university in Rochester and has lived for quite some
times in different countries Asia and Europe. I can say that I've never seen
any countries where food habits was as bad as in Rochester... Of course, there
were some good restaurants in Rochester, there were farmer markets but all of
the restaurants at the university served greasy unhealthy food (I couldn't
stand the food there and actually lost 10 pounds in 6 month because after 3
weeks I got tired of all the food served there and just didn't feel like
eating much).

Now, Rochester might be extreme, it is after all the home of the "Garbage
Plate" but really it was shocking and while all of this is anecdotal, the
statistics do show that US has a very high number of obese...

------
mrbogle
How many of you can do all this (linked from OP
[http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/be_fit/index.php?cm_mmc=MS...](http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/be_fit/index.php?cm_mmc=MSNBC-
_-Sentenced%20to%20the%20chair-_-
Article-_-10%20Standards%20to%20assess%20your%20fitness%20level))?

* Bench 1.5 Times Your Body Weight

* Run 1.5 Miles in 10 Minutes

* Touch the Rim

* Leg-Press 2.25 Times Your Weight

* Swim 700 Yards in 12 Minutes

* Do 40 Pushups

* Measure Up

* Run 300 Yards Sub 1 Minute

* Touch Your Toes

* Toss a Basketball 75 Feet Kneeling

A couple are pretty intense. I lift 3 days a week, climb, and do cardio 1-2
times a week. I cannot bench 285 (1.5x bw; my 5 RM @ 235), or squat 425 (2.25
bw; 5 RM @ 275). Also not sure about the swimming.

~~~
potatolicious
As a former swimmer, 700 yards in 12 minutes is 2.33 lengths per min, or 25
seconds a length sustained for 28 lengths.

That's pretty aggressive for anyone who doesn't swim very often. Even a
relatively fit person who doesn't swim all the time would have trouble hitting
that.

Even at my peak I could probably only pull 18s/length, and definitely can't
sustain it for 28 lengths.

------
aufreak3
Isn't there some factor such as posture being left out here? What about monks
who meditate in sitting position for very long stretches?

------
mayutana
What about sitting on an exercise ball? Have read quite a few articles in HN
about the benefit of doing so.

------
mayutana
In the context of this study, does riding a bicycle in the normal seated
position count as sitting?

------
sliverstorm
Things like this make me question the wisdom in the career choice I am about
to leap into headlong.

~~~
akgerber
Bike to work.

I'm fresh out of college, at my first desk job. I'm in the best shape of my
life. A commute is an exercise routine that you're not about to skip.

~~~
sliverstorm
The studies I've been reading indicate anything more than 3 hours of sitting
begins to impact your life expectancy.

I have no concerns as far as _fitness_ goes, I'm very confident I'll be able
to keep myself healthy in that respect.

------
TheSOB88
I believe it, at least the general conclusion that sitting at a desk for 40
hours a week, plus sitting in your car for another 5-10, probably ain't that
good for your health. It ain't what your body was designed to do.

~~~
rubashov
> It ain't what your body was designed to do.

The physical activity levels of hunter-gatherers is actually pretty low, day-
to-day. They spend a lot of days sitting around.

~~~
jimbokun
A fair amount of walking around and standing around, too, I would think.
Certainly compared to the modern desk worker.

Do you disagree?

------
konad
In the US, 14 people a day die in the workplace.

