

Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory - tomeast
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory

======
gerggerg
It's interesting to listen to stories like this because they make it truly
difficult to access your own feelings. You want to dislike or even hate it but
a moment later you realize, in order to do so, you'd have to pass those
judgements onto yourself. And so you kind of brush it off or feel like you're
somehow doing the right thing by just hearing about it. There is no option
other than simply not using electronics, or maybe only buying used electronics
claiming the recycling karma offset. And whats kind of crazy is that I love
programming. It's not only my job to use these devices, but I love to make
them do new things. If I'm to continue to love it I have to live in a mind
with forgetful acceptance or forced ignorance. I don't see a 3rd option.

~~~
jhancock
_recycling karma_. I went through this phase a few years back in Shanghai. I
refused to buy anything new and would call a friend for his old iPod in a
drawer when mine died. This worked for a bit but has limitations.

I'm back in China now, after a two year break to the U.S. Ten years in
Shanghai was too much for me. I needed some perspective from _home_. Now I'm
back, in Chengdu. My rules are simple. In all aspects of my life, where I can,
I incrementally raise the labor bar and try to provide more than _just a job_.
The IT projects I do, I tell my clients I only do high-end work and pay my
talent well. And I do pay them well; generally 50% to 200% over their prior
jobs. I also get to cherry pick the best talent and have very satisfied
clients. This approach has its limitations and I'll adjust my approach when I
reach their limits.

For you, there are two things you can do:

1 - Choose wisely who you give your money to. If you feel you can't easily
raise the bar in the electronics you buy because all suppliers are playing the
same game, do so in other aspects of your life. For many, there is choice in
food and other local things you buy.

2 - Get involved more closely in who your elected representative are. These
guys set the global and local trade rules. Let them know at the ballot box
what you think.

------
radicalbyte
A point which seems to be missed (and which is, thankfully, made in the
podcast) is that these terrible conditions are better than the alternative.

The situation China, in many ways, better than it was in the Western world
when we were going through our Industrial Revolution.

It made me think back to a TED talk from Hans Rosling on Population Growth,
and the relation to economic status:
[http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_on_global_population_g...](http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_on_global_population_growth.html)

Although it seems bad to us now, globilization is, over all, a net positive.

~~~
decode
> A point which seems to be missed (and which is, thankfully, made in the
> podcast) is that these terrible conditions are better than the alternative.

This is often brought up, but strangely "the alternative" is defined as "the
way things were before" instead of "better working conditions." The fact is
that there is no one "alternative" to these kinds of business situations;
there are many different alternatives, some of them better and some of them
worse. Conditions can be improved, if people want it. Otherwise, there would
still be 12-year-olds working 80 hour weeks in factories in the US and Europe.

------
lukeman
Hopefully the story is more honest than the title, since Foxconn is less an
"Apple factory" than it is the company that pretty much assembles all of the
best electronic devices in the world (at least according to
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Clients>).

~~~
ugh
It’s a clever way of framing it. Apple has become this huge and powerful
entity and they are very much unlike every other technology company out there.

If you list all the companies or pick another one that’s not Apple they will
just say noncommittal nice things and try to shift responsibility away from
them. “But we have to do this to stay competitive, everyone else does!” “We
have even stricter guidelines for our suppliers than our competitors!” “Have
you tried looking at this other company?”

Apple is extremely successful, extremely rich and always in the Spotlight.
They are the most likely company to actually do something to improve
conditions.

------
sumukh1
This is incredible storytelling and is very humanist. I'd really recommend
listening to it. We use these devices everyday and don't even think about it.

Here's an article from Gizmodo about an undercover journalist:
[http://gizmodo.com/5542527/undercover-report-from-
foxconns-h...](http://gizmodo.com/5542527/undercover-report-from-foxconns-
hell-factory)

[http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/metro/2010-06/02/content_992207...](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/metro/2010-06/02/content_9922076.htm)

and a direct link to the mp3:
<http://podcast.thisamericanlife.org/podcast/454.mp3>

~~~
DanielRibeiro
There was also this game that showed the story behind such devices:
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/appsblog/2011/sep/14/ap...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/appsblog/2011/sep/14/apple-
phone-story-rejection)

------
alrs
I find Steve Jobs repellent, but he was once committed to manufacturing
hardware in the United States.

The minor undercurrent of criticism since his passing has been Apple's
manufacturing vendors in Asia. Forgotten is the drag on NeXT by its decision
to build a factory in Fremont, CA. It was way overbuilt, and sucked up a lot
of the money fronted by Canon and Ross Perot to keep NeXT alive while it was
largely unable to sell much of anything.

[http://allaboutstevejobs.com/pics/places/fremont/place/light...](http://allaboutstevejobs.com/pics/places/fremont/place/lightbox-
iframe.html)

~~~
PakG1
Steve Jobs took it up publicly before he died about how the American
government could make manufacturing in the US to be a more attractive option
for companies like Apple.

~~~
joering1
I dont buy it.

in the good ole days even before Standard Oil, fierce competition and W-2 (and
IRS/SS in that matter), the reason behind owning any business was not to get
rich or satisfy the board with higher dividend, but to give people job and
ability to keep their families respected.

to me its a simple math: Apple produce stuff in China saving 40% of production
costs, then sells its goods in America putting 40% profit margin on it. I
smell greed, regardless if people accept to be ripped of or not.

~~~
pooriaazimi
> to me its a simple math: Apple produce stuff in China saving 40% of
> production costs, then sells its goods in America putting 40% profit margin
> on it. I smell greed, regardless if people accept to be ripped of or not.

So, you expect Apple to manufacture in the States, and then sell it to you
_without_ a margin (over production costs)... And how exactly are those poor
Apple engineers and Apple Store Employees are supposed to make money?

If some day Apple manufactures iDevices in America, then an iPad would cost
$799, or Apple would go out of business.

This is not to say I'd like Apple's partner (Foxconn) to enslave chinese
workers so I could buy an iPad cheaper... I'd be happy if my iPad would be
$549 (instead of $499) AND those workers were receiving more money for their
hard work.

~~~
theduexmachina
One of the reasons manufacturing costs are so high in the united states is due
to labor costs. Put simply, America cannot beat the cost efficiency of Chinese
production. Samsung however decided to put a plant into Austin for production
of the A5 chip. (A Korean company building in Texas for a product assembled in
China)

[http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/16/samsungs-new-texas-
facto...](http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/16/samsungs-new-texas-factory-
for-a5-chip-production-now-fully-operational/)

On a more cynical note, Apple's shareholders would not be happy if they could
be making more profit by making it in China and selling it for $549. Another
downsides to having shareholders run your company.

~~~
pooriaazimi
Maybe something like 'iPad RED'?

------
eurleif
This isn't as exciting, but along the same lines, I once spied on the people
repairing my MBP: <http://ecritters.biz/applecarefacility/>

~~~
slamdunc
It'd be great to see the iSight script if you're up for sharing. I also wonder
what was wrong with your MBP, from the photos it looked like there was some
initial activity and then a lot of nothing, then a final check and I guess
they returned it fixed? Hilarious, thanks for sharing.

~~~
eurleif
Here you go: <http://defiant.ecritters.biz/PeriodiciSight.zip>

It depends on a library called CocoaSequenceGrabber. I'm sure you can find it
somewhere, but the first Google link seems to be dead. I also have no idea
whether it works on recent versions of OS X.

A fan was making a lot of noise. (Not just the usual noise fans make when they
spin up; it sounded broken, like it was grinding against something.) They
couldn't hear it, and didn't fix it. (Later, I brought it back and asked them
to please just replace the fan, regardless of whether they could hear it. They
did.)

------
keeran
Brilliant and incredibly sad storytelling.

~~~
quizbiz
This is an understatement and I highly encourage everyone to take the time and
listen.

------
mnutt
If anyone gets the chance to go see the Mike Daisey monologue excerpted (The
Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs) I'd highly, highly recommend it whether
you love Apple, hate Apple, or are somewhere in between. He's an amazing
storyteller.

He's performing in NYC on January 31st.

------
dangero
Great storytelling and I have no doubt that it is all true. One thing that
bothered me in this monologue was he kept saying things like, "Do you think
that THEY don't know?" "Do you think that Apple doesn't know?"

Problem for me being that Apple is a corporation and doesn't have one mind.
Does anyone at Apple know? I'm sure people who visit the factories do. Does
the information get passed around throughout the organization so that everyone
knows? I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Do most people who work at Apple want to be
intentionally ignorant? Probably, but I don't think there's some huge
conspiracy going on. Most Apple employees are no different than consumers.
They have no knowledge of this from Apple internals and don't think about it
much.

------
shirro
Just to turn this around a bit for a different perspective.

How many US products are made by prison labour? Who has worse conditions: a
Foxconn employee paid a low wage and living in a dorm or a US prisoner
deprived of liberty, exposed to violence and paid practically nothing? Who
will live better and longer, the grandchildren of Foxconn employees or those
of US prisoners?

The US has an astonishingly high incarceration rate compared to other
countries thanks to government policy. The US economy clearly benefits from
the misery caused by this system. Why would any foreigner want to support it?

------
johnx123-up
Transcript please (Can't listen from office)

~~~
alphakappa
'This American Life' is a lot more than just the transcript - the show really
has to be listened to. Get the podcast and listen to it while you drive - it's
worth it.

------
pan69
I actually saw him live recently here in Sydney. I didn't know what to expect.
It was well worth it.

------
peterwwillis
"There are 20 cafeterias at the Foxconn plant. Now you just need to visualize
a cafeteria that holds 10,000 people."

I'm still trying.

This story tells you everything you already know, but makes you really realize
it. Like you should play it once a month to remind yourself of what we all
conveniently forget.

 _edit_ It's more likely the cafeterias seat only 4,000. I guess that's
better.

------
jQueryIsAwesome
If one of you guys, someday happen to be wealthy; i highly recommend hiring
people that work at Foxconn and other corporate farms of misery; they would
probably be really, and i mean really the most loyal and thankful workers in
the world if you can give them a decent salary for decent amount of hours.

~~~
glenra
They _do_ get a decent salary by local standards, and (so long as they're
being paid for it) tend to want all the hours they can get. There was a riot a
few years ago in a chinese plant because the plant owners stopped giving so
much overtime and the workers were upset that they lost out on the extra work.

If you read Apple's status reports, one of the problems they seem to be
battling is that these jobs are _so_ good that workers are willing to pay huge
bribes to middlemen in order to get the jobs. The workers are routinely
willing to give up _at least a month's salary_ to get these jobs, often more.

(Apple can't ban this practice outright because it's too widespread (and
probably serves a useful market purpose), so they try to put a cap on it and
make sure workers pay _only_ a month's salary to get the job, no more than
that.)

~~~
jhancock
They get an _above average_ salary by local standards. I wouldn't call this
decent. I'm not calling out Apple's manufacturing partners here, whom are
better than most, just making the situation more clear.

edit: As to "huge bribes to middlemen", I live close to a Foxconn factory
making Apple products in Chengdu. I've seen recruiters in a suburban (poor)
farmer's market with a table setup recruiting people for Apple jobs. Yes, they
were clear the jobs were for Foxconn making Apple products. I had my wife talk
to one of them. Perhaps other factories at some times have been competitive to
the point where employees paid fees to recruiters, but it doesn't appear to be
happening where I live as of a few weeks ago.

~~~
glenra
The workers paying the bribes mostly were from well outside the area where the
factories were, including nearby countries.

Quote from Apple's Supplier Responsibility report (page 7)

[http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_...](http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2011_Progress_Report.pdf)

 _Limiting Recruitment Fees

Some of our suppliers work with third-party labor agencies to hire contract
workers from countries such as the Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, and
Vietnam. These agencies, in turn, may work through multiple subagencies in the
hiring country, the workers’ home country, and, in some cases, all the way
back to the workers’ home village. By the time the worker has paid all fees
across these agencies, the total cost can equal many months’ wages, forcing
workers into debt to gain employment.

Apple views recruitment fee overcharges as debt-bonded labor, or involuntary
labor, which is strictly prohibited by our Code. We limit recruitment fees to
the equivalent of one month’s net wages and require suppliers to reimburse
overpaid fees for all foreign contract workers in their facilities, including
workers not assigned to Apple projects. To the best of our knowledge, Apple is
the only company in the electronics industry that mandates reimbursement of
excessive recruitment fees._

Apple forced companies to reimburse more than $3.4 million that year to
foreign contract workers, fees of as much as "thousands of dollars per
worker".

------
ronnier
Apple now gets the Republican treatment.

