
When Microsoft's eBook store closes, your books disappear too - yawz
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47810367
======
wlll
I don't buy ebooks, and this is just one reason. This is the complete list:

1\. For some reason they cost a similar amount to print books

Sometimes a bit less, sometimes the same, sometimes more. Distributing a
physical book means you have to print, handle, store, transport, store again,
handle again and transport again (using a simplified model of the journey a
book takes to the end user). That costs money, and it costs effectively $0 to
get an ebook to a user. I don't see that saving being passed on to me, the
consumer.

Not only that, you're generally paying for _less_ than you get with a physical
book in terms of rights and (IMO convenience)

2\. You can't (or maybe you can) lend them freely.

Last I checked there were limits on lending with the kindle/amazon. Maybe
that's changed, but I don't want to have to think about that, I just want to
lend the book to someone.

3\. You can't give them to someone.

Maybe this has changed since I last looked, but passing on the book to someone
else and it now being "theirs" isn't possible. Again perhaps that's changed
these days.

3\. Cognitive overhead

Can I do this stuff? Can't I? How do I do it? I don't want to have to think
about that. Last week I gave a book to my daughter by just putting it on her
desk. It was easy.

4\. Longevity

In 10 years will I still be able to access my books? 20? Yes, because they're
over there, on a shelf.

If ebooks cost a fraction of what they cost today then I would totally
consider them. It's a tradeoff. Right now ebooks don't swing the balance
towards them.

~~~
andrewla
All your points are dead on. I'll throw in these cons as well:

5\. visibility (as noted by angrygoat) and browseability is terrible.

6\. Flipping through an ebook looking for something is impossible.

7\. Illustrations or drawings are rendered terribly.

The list of pros of ebooks:

1\. It's just a better experience. Ebooks are lighter than their equivalent
books, easy to use one-handed, fonts can be adjusted, you can carry as many as
you want with no extra weight, you can search within a book, you have access
with wifi to your entire library at any point in time without having to fill
up a cramped apartment. Browsing for books to read is terrible, but I can
browse at my local B&N and then buy the ebooks on Amazon (which makes me
terrible, but what can you do).

In balance, this means that I've switched almost entirely to ebooks.

The objections that you give (1-4) are the ones that are fixable by hoisting
the Jolly Roger. This a step I am reluctant to take but if point 1 keeps going
in this direction, then I can't really convince myself that I can justify the
cost. A literally out-of-print book [1] selling for $13 is so outlandish that
it makes my head spin. A book where the e-book is twice as expensive as the
paperback [2]? What on earth is going on here.

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009FKTTMQ](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009FKTTMQ)

[2]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XT605Y](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XT605Y)

~~~
wlll
> It's just a better experience.

That's rather subjective which is why I left most of this stuff out. Some
people really like reading on a kindle or iPad, I don't particularly (the
Kindle is "OK").

> Ebooks are lighter than their equivalent books

It depends on the book TBH. A lot will be heavier, many won't. The book I'm
currently reading ("Medium Raw" by Anthony Bourdain) is 49g heavier than a
kindle (the cheapest in the UK), which for me is effectively the same as 0g in
terms of wether I will notice.

I am a relatively strong man, throwing a book or two into my bag doesn't make
a difference to me.

Of course, if I were to carry my entire library around that would be a
_significantly_ different story :) But then I just pick books I want to read
and take them, and if I change my mind later I do something else.

> easy to use one-handed

Never had a problem with this.

> fonts can be adjusted

Never wanted to do this.

> you can search within a book

I rarely want to do this, so it's not a particularly big deal when I can't.

> you have access with wifi to your entire library at any point in time
> without having to fill up a cramped apartment

I mentioned in another comment, I am lucky in that I don't have that issue
where I live. The balance might be altered if I lived in a small Tokyo
apartment (for instance) however.

> The objections that you give (1-4) are the ones that are fixable by hoisting
> the Jolly Roger.

I can buy ebooks and strip the DRM if I want, I tried it (on ebooks I
legitimately bought) so I could make sure I always had the book. It was a PITA
and didn't (for me) swing the pendulum enough to choose ebooks.

~~~
andrewla
For better experience I don't know if I can convince you -- the Kindle Oasis
is just ridiculously ergonomic. I'm a voracious reader. Reading a paperback
without breaking the spine is an annoyance that I'm glad to have put behind
me. Reading a full-size hardcover is just not doable one-handed or lying on
your side in bed. The front light is easy on the eyes at night and doesn't
disturb other sleepers in your bed. I've tried to go back especially to re-
read treasured classics, like Hitchiker's Guide, and just went ahead and
bought the e-book version.

> I am a relatively strong man, throwing a book or two into my bag doesn't
> make a difference to me.

I've put a lot of work and streamlining into not carrying a bag at all.
Carrying my kindle in my back pocket or jacket pocket is easy enough.
Similarly carrying a book depends on the book.

> > easy to use one-handed

> Never had a problem with this.

How do you turn pages? I used to have to do the awkward reverse flip - half
close - move finger - let hang - flip up, or just free up my other hand for a
second. On a crowded train neither of these work particularly well.

~~~
wlll
I'll bear the Oasis in mind if I see it.

> I've put a lot of work and streamlining into not carrying a bag at all.

I mostly have to carry a laptop so getting rid of my bag isn't an option. When
I do leave my bag at home I might put a slim book into my pocket (I've got
"The old man and the sea" to read at some point) or I'll read the news on my
phone, listen to music, or just sit and think.

I did streamline my wallet though. Thin nylon all-ett wallet, one card, some
cash.

> How do you turn pages?

I mostly free my other hand (it's rare I'm doing something particularly
involved with my "spare" hand while reading). This is mostly in the form of
"put down my up of tea for a moment". If I'm in the kitchen I might put the
book down on it's back and use the reading hand to turn the page while also
holding it open.

------
asveikau
I didn't start buying ebooks from Amazon/Kindle until I realized it was
relatively easy to break its DRM. I've never used the files anywhere else but
I keep a cracked copy of every purchase just in case. That old story about
"1984" being removed gave me too much of a negative impression.

~~~
hombre_fatal
So they still get your money and you deal with the inconvenience?

Try buying from
[https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebooks](https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebooks) where
possible (DRM-free).

~~~
ocdtrekkie
There's actually quite a few eBook stores out there with DRM-free options, you
just have to know where to look, and they're usually publisher-specific.

Humble Bundle does a weekly Book Bundle. Wiley, O'Reilly, No Starch, and
several other publishers all regularly participate with tech books, geek
books, comic books, and manga.

No Starch itself deserves a separate mention just because they're awesome. On
their own site, if you buy the print book, the eBook comes free, a nice
courtesy you won't pick up buying on Amazon. And of course, all of their stuff
is DRM-free.

Informit, which is Pearson's programming and IT book site, sells watermarked,
but otherwise DRM-free content (if you really care, watermark stripping likely
isn't that hard, but as long as they're not trying to tamper with my ability
to open the file where I want to, I don't mind watermarks, I ain't a pirate).
Informit includes Adobe Press, Cisco Press, Microsoft Press, VMware Press,
Sams, etc. I've gotten a lot of textbooks from here.

Manning Publications sells DRM-free too.

If you're a Trekkie, Simon & Schuster sells Star Trek novels DRM-free on their
site as well. They have monthly sales that bring a set of them down to 99
cents a piece, which is good, since their standard prices are obscene.

Even Comixology (from Amazon, of course), has joined the DRM-free game, though
only for specific publishers. Neither Marvel nor DC participate, mind you, but
many of the smaller publishers do.

~~~
reitanqild
Didn't O'Reilly stop selling ebooks and now only sell paper books and online
(Safari)?

~~~
tzs
They stopped selling ebooks directly to consumers. They still publish them,
but now sales are all through third parties. You can get them in PDF or ePub
format, DRM-free, from ebooks.com.

------
miki123211
That's why I love the way we get ebooks in Poland. When we buy an ebook, we
usually get a pack of files (epub/pdf/mobi), without any DRM, but with
watermarks, some visible, some hidden. Same for audiobooks. There's no DRM,
there's some piracy, as always, but the system works and it works pretty damn
well. I wish american ebook and audiobook stores were like this.

~~~
billpollock
Why should your ebook files be watermarked? Your printed books aren't.
Watermarks are ugly.

~~~
mcv
I'm fine with watermarks. The only downside to them is that they are traceable
to the original buyer if someone else gets their hands on your and decides to
distribute it online, so lending them to a friend is risky.

But the watermarks really only matter when they get illegally copied around,
and don't hurt the owner in the way more restrictive forms of DRM do.

~~~
kgwxd
Risky how? Is there some punishment for not perfectly securing bytes? That
would be insane because companies aren't punished for sharing your stuff by
accident or even selling it on purpose.

~~~
mcv
Maybe they should be.

------
DoctorNick
The Right to Read becomes more relevant every year...
[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-
read.en.html](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html)

------
gnicholas
> _But with the 5G boom about to hit, experts will tell you we’re set to see a
> massive increase in connected devices and appliances, many of which we’ll
> probably only be able to licence, rather than own._

Why is this more likely with 5G than 4G? What appliances are not suitable for
IOT right now, but will be with 5G? Would most of my appliances be in my home,
where I have wifi?

~~~
Tharkun
This is the usual marketing nonsense. But unless mobile carriers start
offering very cheap plans for IOT devices (which is in itself unlikely), I
don't see this happening any time soon. WiFi is pretty much here to stay, and
is much more reliable indoors than 4/5/6/7/..G

~~~
flukus
> But unless mobile carriers start offering very cheap plans for IOT devices
> (which is in itself unlikely)

I would have thought there was something equivalent of the electricity duck
curve for *G and they've got plenty of bandwidth to sell at certain times of
day.

~~~
Tharkun
For me it's not a matter of bandwidth, just the cost of the number of SIMs
needed. I have hundreds of devices in the field, many in locations with no
wifi or wired internet available. They all have sim slots, but the cost (in
Belgium) makes it an impossible venture.

------
LeoPanthera
This is the second time I've lost eBooks to Microsoft. The first time was some
time in the late 90s, when I used to read books on the bus on my Compaq iPAQ
PocketPC PDA, using an app which I think was called Microsoft Reader? The
books were of course DRM'd.

Eventually the app disappeared and those files are now useless.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Yeah, I bought a few LIT format eBooks off of Amazon back in the day
(predating Kindle, I believe). I think I might still have them somewhere with
the DRM broken, but obviously, newer formats are nicer.

------
sohkamyung
Check out this list of DRM-free bookstores, maintained by Libreture [1].

I usully buy my DRM-free ebooks from Weightless Books [2], and also subscribe
to "The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction" and "Interzone" from that site.

[1]
[https://www.libreture.com/bookshops/](https://www.libreture.com/bookshops/)

[2] [https://weightlessbooks.com/](https://weightlessbooks.com/)

~~~
bo1024
Thanks!

------
Causality1
I pay for my content but I also pirate copies of everything I like. Every DVD,
ebook, audible audiobook, favored Netflix series, and graphic novel has a
version in my personal archive. Hell, I even keep offline copies of my
favorite YouTube videos and site mirrors of my favorite webcomics. Go down the
list of your "liked" YouTube videos and take note of how many of them are now
lost to you, through account terminations or being marked private. If you
don't take control of the things that're important to you, you leave the door
open for someone to take them away.

------
halfnibble
I didn't even know Microsoft _had_ an eBook store. Somebody in marketing needs
to get laid off.

~~~
drewmol
and replaced by many more people in order to have the resources to market
their next product

------
romwell
Well, that's one argument for piracy. Or at least avoiding anything that you
can't have DRM-free.

(I still like my Steam library, but the games I really care about are bought
on GOG/HIB when possible.)

~~~
luladjiev
Sorry for the question, but what does HIB means?

~~~
thaumasiotes
I assume "humble indie bundle".

~~~
dnate
aren't those still mainly activated on steam?

~~~
jamesgeck0
Every game in a Humble _Indie_ Bundle has always been available DRM free.
Titles in their "Humble Trove" (a monthly subscriber perk) are also DRM free.
Other bundles Humble Bundle sells are often Steam only.

~~~
WorldMaker
I find it slightly sad that Humble Bundle watered down their brand by allowing
Steam-only sales in the (Not So) Humble Store, then further by increasingly
having Steam-only bundles.

------
isharamet
Well, I couldn't download half of the albums I bought 5-6 years ago in iTunes
because they're no longer available in my country and there is no way to re-
download them. An this store is far from being closed...

------
tjoff
Same here. Every amazon book I've read has been on my kindle, after I've
unnecessarily stripped the DRM. Just so I know that the process of removing
the DRM was successful.

The instant I no longer can is the same day I'll stop buying DRMed books.

------
kingaillas
I like ebooks.

I like being able to resize fonts, I like looking up words immediately, I like
carrying around dozens on a phone and/or kindle.

I like the sales. I follow reddit's fantasy and printsf subreddits, and there
isn't a week that goes by without a book on sale for $1.99. Pricing could be
more advantageous (lower for ebooks) but at the same time, I just bought a few
of Greg Egan's books to fill out my collection (Diaspora and Quarantine) and
they are _right now_ on the US Store at least, $2.99 ebook versus $12.99
paperback. And, the ebook versions are loanable.

Yeah I could use my library more, and I use it plenty, but it turns out I
_LIKE AND WANT TO_ funnel cash towards authors I enjoy. That's how they make
their living.

Physical books still offer better random access to content (flipping around
from chapter to chapter) but ebooks won me over for technical books as well -
simply because I can have them in multiple places (home, work, travel) without
lugging them around. Yes I have a physical copies of certain key books but the
convenience of having them all over wins out, for me.

------
gigabates
This article is pretty ironic given this is exactly what the BBC did when they
shut down BBC Store.

------
zaphod12
Support your local library!

Many libraries have tons of Ebooks to lend out. It's more convenient than
going to the library (since it's all online), but otherwise the same deal.
Check out, read it, and return it.

(1 crappy thing is that the library can only lend each copy a set number of
times before it is 'destroyed', but I guess that's intended to match how
physical books would fall apart. It's not ideal, but still - SUPPORT YOUR
LOCAL LIBRARY!!)

------
bubblewrap
Won't the books remain on the reader device, even if the store closes?

The discussion is also old. I realized that I end up lending only a small
fraction of books to other people, and my kids will probably not care about
most of my books. Storage of paper books also costs money, so rebuying the few
books I want to pass on or reread may be cheaper than buying and keeping
physical copies of books. So I chose ebooks.

~~~
joe_the_user
I assume books are encrypted on the ebook reader and the reader operates by
going to Microsoft each time someone tries to open a book and getting an
encryption key show the book unencrypted.

~~~
bubblewrap
That's not how it usually works, does it with Microsoft? It would be very
limiting and annoying to be unable to read books without internet access (say
on the beach on holidays, for example). Certainly not the case on Kindle.

There were cases were people's Amazon accounts were cancelled, so they
couldn't buy new books from Amazon. The books they already bought remained on
their kindles, though.

There were also cases of Amazon deleting books from kindles, when the books
became illegal.

Any reason to assume Microsoft operated in a very different way?

~~~
netsharc
Presumably the tech is different, but Zune DRM for music bought before 2012
would've stopped working in 2017. The service itself closed down in 2015. So
maybe they have a model where the license is valid for e.g. 5 years, and at
that point in time the devices would've been clever enough to download new
licenses.

Has anyone made "ZuneBook" puns yet?

Edit: hah Zunebook was an MS tablet that was supposed to compete with Amazon
Kindle tablets...

------
cbanek
I seriously worry about this with Kindle books I get on Amazon. I hope Amazon
never goes away, though I guess it could at any time.

~~~
tomjakubowski
Like another commenter has said, the DRM on Kindle e-books is pretty easy to
break.
[https://apprenticealf.wordpress.com](https://apprenticealf.wordpress.com)

~~~
jammygit
Isn't it technically a crime though? That's the kicker: the legislative
backing to the schemes. Its a matter of time until this GS are so locked down
that circumvention becomes impractical, even if its several years in the
future. The 'it doesn't work' argument is temporary unless there is enough
pushback (as happened with music, thankfully)

~~~
redwall_hp
DRM is technically a crime, too. It's infringing upon First Sale Doctrine.
You, as someone buying media, actually have rights to what you purchase. The
general public has just accepted the industry trampling on those rights and
lobbying for laws that conflict with them.

~~~
lgeorget
If my understanding is correct, the Doctrine of First Sale only applies if you
buy a physical asset, like a CD or an actual book.

~~~
darkpuma
Is DeCSS not illegal under the DMCA? Those DRM'd DVDs were no less physical
than DRM-less audio CDs.

------
zrav
After PlaysForSure and Zune this is the third time MS shafts buyers of DRM'd
content.

~~~
microtherion
I was just thinking that it was supremely ironic that the creators of the
PlaysForSure brand are serial deprecators of DRM systems.

------
mark_l_watson
I like to write using the Leanpub.com platform because book purchasers get
PDF/Kindle/ePub formats. I also like to use other publishers who provide DRM
free files, I don’t mind watermarks. (I also sell using a Creative Commons
share for no commercial gain license so people who buy my books can give away
copies to their friends.)

That said, Kindle books are very convenient and I like the ability to hilite
text and add notes.

In any case, as long as Microsoft refunds their eBooks purchase price to
customers, I don’t see their decision to get out of the business as a bad
thing. Actually it seems like a classy move on their part making refunds.

------
jbergens
For anyone in Sweden there is a nice e-bookstore called Bokon. It has DRM free
books that can easily be synced to a Kindle or some other device.

[https://bokon.se/](https://bokon.se/)

------
jshowa3
The whole point of the cloud is so you don't own anything anymore and so that
companies can entangle you in a recurring revenue stream.

------
PorterDuff
A thing I don't get about eBook sites is why they aren't easier to browse.
Simply being able to scroll through a screen equivalent of a library shelf
(Dewey Decimal or LOC system) would be nice.

Obviously, using libgen tends to avoid this DRM problem.

No doubt as the surveillance economy ramps up, getting every last penny for
copyright will ramp up also.

------
egil
Another curious situation drm-demanding publishers have created for themselves
is the lack of control and leverage against the stores. With the closed Kindle
ecosystem in such a major position, Amazon (with its poor drm) has tremendous
leverage over the publishers.

------
basicplus2
Slight tangent.. where is the promise of books being printed on demand
locally?

------
mrmondo
I REALLY don’t agree with giving Amazon money (ethically) but I am a hypocrite
and end up buying a lot of ebooks and audiobooks from them, I do my best to
back up the files using calibre but I‘m sure they could lock down devices /
files using DRM and their latest DRM incarnation is very hard to remove. I try
to buy DRM-free ebooks and audiobooks whenever possible but I think mostly due
to market domination authors and publishers end up at least mostly exclusively
providing content via Amazon.

~~~
calcifer
If you are already using Calibre, it's not hard to protect yourself from
Amazon. I have a Kindle PaperWhite that's about ~3 years old and it only
connected to the Internet once during initial setup. I've put it in flight
mode after that and it will never go online again.

As for books, when I buy them on Amazon I select "transfer via USB" which
let's me download it and when I add it to Calibre, the DRM is stripped by
DEDRM_tools [1][2] before transfering into the Kindle.

[1]
[https://github.com/apprenticeharper/DeDRM_tools](https://github.com/apprenticeharper/DeDRM_tools)

[2] Note that the tool only removes the DRM, it doesn't anonymise the file.
It's still associated with your account.

~~~
mrmondo
Hey, thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.

I’ve used deDRM a lot in the past, but it doesn’t work with the latest DRM on
(I think AWZ3 files) - but perhaps it’s been updated since I last checked
about 6 months ago or so.

~~~
calcifer
I use it with AWZ3 just fine, but then I also haven't allowed my Kindle to
update its software in years, so maybe Amazon is giving me files with older
DRM.

~~~
Crinus
I bought a few books a couple of months ago from Amazon for use with their PC
viewer and the first thing i did was to remove the DRM (so i can read it on my
phone using my preferred ebook reader... and i trust myself more than Amazon
to keep the books around) so i think they managed to break the latest version
too.

------
rmason
I'm unfamiliar with Microsoft's eBook offerings and the format upon which
they're offered. The old Microsoft would have had a proprietary format unique
to themselves but that may not be the case.

Why couldn't they convert them to a standard format and put them up on an S3
with a login that pointed people to their virtual folders?

~~~
banana_giraffe
One assumes they'd put them up on Azure's version of S3, but that aside, no
doubt no one knows if they can legally offer these things without DRM because
of the contracts involved, and no one wants to take the risk.

Or they know they can't and don't want to go through the effort of getting new
contracts.

------
makecheck
Every virtual-book service should be required to ship you a printed copy of
every book you own if they are unable to maintain their service, _or_
significantly lower e-book pricing. They shouldn’t get close to the same money
for selling time bombs.

------
natch
Reminiscent of Microsoft’s “Plays for Sure (TM)” branded DRM system for music
which eventually did not allow anyone to play their purchased music anymore,
contrary to the branding.

At least in this ebook case the customers are getting refunds.

------
MarkusAllen
I use the Seth Godin model of ebook selling...

I sell my ebook on Amazon AND I give away the same ebook on my website FREE.

I give people the choice. Most buy the book.

To see one of the examples, Google:

Compiled: 713 Tai Lopez best quotes and quips revealed!

------
pjmlp
Hence why I only buy ebooks that offer epub and pdf (DRM free) as additional
formats, alongside kindle.

------
fturco
DRM and watermarking of e-books should be banned. Copyright should be
abolished.

------
ThomPete
If there ever was a case for blockchain!

------
nil-sec
They refund them. Why is this an issue?

~~~
ohithereyou
It's an issue if there were ebooks exclusive to Microsoft and not available
anywhere else. You've lost access to something that you can't get access to
(legally) again at any price.

~~~
sdinsn
Well, is that actually the case for any books?

------
specialist
John Beezer built the Weed Share P2P music sharing service built on top of
Microsoft's DRM. Microsoft discontinued the service without notice. All the
music everyone bought was lost (unplayable).

~~~
specialist
These downvotes capture the "hate" portion of my relationship with HN.

Here's the cite:

[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/05/media_player_weedsh...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/05/media_player_weedshare/)

I misremembered the technical details, but the end result is the same: user's
lost the content they purchased.

