
Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in? - edwincheese
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/hong-kong-protest-why-are-prodemocracy-supporters-staging-a-sitin-9760234.html
======
wyuenho
Hongkonger here. I help out with a number of volunteer tech groups in HK,
including a few resistance groups. I'm also on the Hong Kong Python User Group
committee.

We are hoping for the best but would like to prepare for the worst, so I'd
like to ask fellow HNers here who have been in similar situations before: what
can we expect to encounter in terms of disruptions in communications? Under
those situations, how can we counter them with technology? There were rumors
that cell towers in certain areas would be shut down, which I don't think
happened. The cell network slowdown was more like overloaded cell towers to
me. We tried Firechat yesterday and it's terrible. With 100s of people on the
same room, it's impossible to follow the feed. It's also very easy to be taken
over by CCP spies who just won't stop polluting the room. Is there anything
you'd recommend?

Thanks HNers in advance.

Updated resources on the situations on the ground:

[http://today.code4.hk/](http://today.code4.hk/)

~~~
flipp
I've been working on an application that might help with some of these issues.
It allows protesters to communicate anonymously and securely in crowds using
adhoc wifi/bluetooth and onion routing. Protest leaders can create a protest
and add a password that spreads via word of mouth in the crowd and ideally
isn't told to police/security forces. Leaders can designate lieutenants and
the chat can be read-only to everyone except them. And it works even if
security forces turn cell towers off. The work in progress is here:
[https://github.com/jackflips/Protest](https://github.com/jackflips/Protest)

I need help building an android version and fixing/auditing the current code.
If that sounds interesting please get in touch :)

~~~
yetanotherHNacc
This is very interesting.

------
ant_sz
I'm from Chinese mainland, a student at Shanghai.there is not even a piece of
information about this leaked to the mainstream media. many of my classmates
managed to get information from multiple sources but more have no idea what
happened.

it's quite strange that the blocking turns a political event into a technical
one.

I'm not a 100% supporter for the protest, but I extremely dislike the
government's passion of blocking everying. it makes me feel hopeless in the
country knowing more and more interesting things are becoming far away from
us.

~~~
gurkendoktor
I have seen this in my Twitter stream today, and I can't really believe it -
does the PRC state media really try to re-brand the photos as a
"celebration"??

[https://twitter.com/libdave/status/516281577001590785](https://twitter.com/libdave/status/516281577001590785)

Then again, I think that's pretty much what they did with pictures from the
Taipei student protests earlier this year...

(Edit: Whoops, duplicate of a sibling post :) )

~~~
spacehunt
Source:
[http://www.chinanews.com/shipin/cnstv/2014/09-26/news500277....](http://www.chinanews.com/shipin/cnstv/2014/09-26/news500277.shtml)

They actually got some "celebrators" standing in front of the protesters
claiming everybody is having a party.

~~~
yskchu
Don't spread the FUD that others are creating.

This is a picture of a separate celebration event from the 26th (Friday). It's
part of the celebration events leading up to 1st Oct.

~~~
spacehunt
The students were already boycotting classes and attending the protests around
the CGO on Friday.

------
tszming
Hongkonger here also (now going to out to see the latest situation)

For those who want a TLDR: [http://www.vox.com/2014/9/28/6856663/hong-kong-
democracy-pro...](http://www.vox.com/2014/9/28/6856663/hong-kong-democracy-
protests-photos)

Lot of protesters are just TEENAGERS/STUDENTS who want a peaceful protest ,
and the crazy police are fully armed and used countless tear gas on them.

This is going to be one of the largest events in HK history.

~~~
Mikeb85
> Lot of protesters are just TEENAGERS/STUDENTS who want a peaceful protest ,
> and the crazy police are fully armed and used countless tear gas on them.

The police must have taken a page from the Ferguson, MO playbook... Or maybe
just Occupy Wall St....

~~~
caycep
Re Ferguson - I hope they didn't take a page from what was clearly one of the
most inept police actions in recent history...one would think they were
smarter than that.

~~~
Mikeb85
Yeah of course they're smarter than that. Just pointing out that police over-
reaction happens just as much over here as there (at least in the last
decade). A few canisters of tear gas and riot gear is hardly unique to HK,
pretty much every G8 protest ever is more violent...

------
asdfologist
Honest question: how effective are these sorts of protests in achieving their
intended goals?

Maybe I'm suffering from confirmation bias, but it seems all the major
demonstrations in the last few decades (Tiananmen Square, Iraq War, Occupy
Wall Street, post-Iranian election, etc) have sizzled out and failed. The one
exception I can think of is the anti-Proposition 8 protests, but Prop 8 was
defeated in the courts through routine legal channels (ultimately culminating
in the Supreme Court decision on Hollingsworth v. Perry) and it's unclear
whether the protests held any sway over the rulings.

~~~
JDShu
In my opinion, that's a very good question and one that demonstrators rarely
think about. Frankly, and until somebody convinces me otherwise, I think that
Occupy Central was and is a strategic failure if the end goal is gain a better
form of democracy in Hong Kong. China has shown time and again that it will
not back down when things get physical, and in for example, the case of
Tiananmen square, the government got more paranoid.

So rationally, I don't think it's a good move by the pan-democrats, as it
essentially shuts down any possibilities of negotiation - the pan-democrats
have very little leverage now that they've already "done their worst".

On the other hand, protests are not about strategy and rationality. People
strongly believe in their ideals and they want to do something rather than sit
around waiting for negotiations that may or may not happen. I can understand
that which is why I'm not as quick to criticize the protesters as many in HK
would.

~~~
wyuenho
What other alternatives do you have to suggest to fight for a true democracy?

~~~
JDShu
Two thing come to mind as a starting point: Negotiation and focusing on
building Hong Kong's economy.

Negotiation: The truth is, HK politics is very much like American politics. It
consists of people blocking any progress on anything because the two sides are
so deeply divided. Instead, I suggest making an honest effort to negotiate and
take things step by step. For example, the central issue to the protests - the
universal suffrage framework described in the Basic Law is strictly better
than the current system. Accepting it while signaling that something even
better is desired and will continue to be brought up would have been more
productive. (Note that the whitepaper came out after the threat to occupy
central).

Economy - One of the subtexts of the whole issue is Hong Kong's decreasing
relevance in relation to China and indeed on the world stage. The stronger HK
is, the more leverage HK has. Instead, real wages are barely increasing, rent
continues to skyrocket, and there is basically no economy besides finance -
and in that HK's competitive advantage shrinks every year. Instead of saying
things like "we are willing to sacrifice the economy if it gives us true
democracy", I think it should be accepted that destroying the economy is not
likely going to get democrats what they want, and that a better economy would
a) free up more people to be able to worry about politics rather than just
putting food on the table, and b) make China think harder about killing the
golden goose.

Occupy Wallstreet was a game of brinksmanship, but unfortunately that only
works when both sides have something to lose. China has nothing to lose today.

~~~
wyuenho
Negotiation: We have been doing that for at least 30 years.

Economy: I in general agree but let's not forget most of China depends on the
banks in Hong Kong for lending. There's a lot of capital at stake here.

~~~
crazychrome
right. how about previous 150 years? woo, I forget, the Queen sent a Governor
who suddenly realise HK needed democracy!

~~~
spacehunt
It's more like the previous 150 years were ruled by benevolent dictators like
Linus so relatively few people complained, but now it's turning into something
like XFree86 so people instead wanted to become like Debian.

~~~
lotsofmangos
Only if Linus had initially moved into your house to deal heroin after beating
you up.

------
idlewords
All this "article" says is that Hong Kong protesters are using two hashtags on
twitter, while giving no further information on the nature or purpose of the
protests.

Much better to read the linked Independent piece:
[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/hong-kong-
prote...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/hong-kong-protest-why-
are-prodemocracy-supporters-staging-a-sitin-9760234.html)

~~~
notjackma
Can you add this live stream to your comment so others can see it?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4q8fs8gTIs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4q8fs8gTIs)

The live stream has been covering the whole protest and also shows recaps
(picture in picture). Jimmy Lai, who has been seen protesting in a poncho and
goggles, owns a media empire in Hong Kong, including the Apple Daily newspaper
which runs this YouTube channel.

From a tech perspective, they've been running without interruption and they
even used a drone, I think a helicopter, to take footage swooping over and
around the protestors and police.

~~~
bendoernberg
This has been, by far, the best produced livestream I've ever seen. Maybe it's
just due to stationary locations for some of the cameras and better bandwidth,
but it's on another level.

------
jakartaposs
In 1998,the Indonesian students stage a mass protest to demand what was then
thought impossible and insane. They demanded that president Soeharto step
down, the end to the military rule, and a free democratic election. After the
students face real bullies and tanks, they finally bought down a 32 year old
regime and a president once considered one of Asia strongman. In 2014 this
year, Indonesia was internationally (UN) acclaimed to held the largest (150
million voters) and free direct presidential election ( 1 man 1 vote). The
winner is mr jokowi who is from an ordinary background, non- millitary and not
from any elite families. In a Democracy, NOTHING is Impossible. However,
reforms need to take place before it can really happen. BLood, tears , time
and sadly lives are the cost for it. When the hk students is face with ak47
from the PLA and stood their grounds, only then they can claim they are
willing to “die for democracy”. Only then the hk students can say they are In
the same league as the “tiananmen students”. I will also like to remind the hk
students that the students at tiananmen 89, jakarta 98, Tunisia 12, Ukraine 14
did not wear googles, as nothing can stop a bullets from a automatic rifle. If
you are all having second thought, then. I suggest that you guys go home and
maybe come back next year. The world are watching and waiting to see if the
cute hk students are really the “legendary” Chinese students at tiaanmen who
let PLA tanks roll on them and haunts your communist leaders till now.

------
Wogef
I'm in Shenzhen and we're getting a little news trickling in since there is a
lot of back and forth daily traffic. They seem to be making some use of mesh-
network (FireChat) for communication: [http://www.pingwest.com/firechat-
hongkong/?from=timeline&isa...](http://www.pingwest.com/firechat-
hongkong/?from=timeline&isappinstalled=0)

This would also be an ideal scenario for PirateBox. I roll the LibraryBox
version on a regular basis for under $20.

------
contingencies
Mainland-resident here. Been in and out of HK since 1998. Usually only a few
days. However, a FOAF is a just out of jail old-school dissident in Hong Kong.

I can see why people are protesting: partly its the want to stay independent,
partly it's fear of the steadily increasingly mainland presence - not just in
government, but people. Regular HK'ers are studying Mandarin (very different
from their more historically significant and representative dialect,
Cantonese) and aiming to do mainland business.

My main observation would be: heard about it from foreigners, got bugger-all
details from purely foreign media, saw no mention in mainland media (which, to
be fair, I rarely see). So just to confirm: there is zero coverage in the
mainland, and not much elsewhere as far as I've seen.

Anyway: good luck Hong Kong, you have a really unique situation in which you
can exercise your rights. Make it worthwhile.

------
xster
It's also fairly well documented that not unlike Mossadegh etc, CIA branch-
offs like NED and NDI are openly funding Uyghur "East Turkistan" and "Occupy
Central" etc [https://www.ndi.org/hong-kong-
designing%20democracy](https://www.ndi.org/hong-kong-designing%20democracy)
[http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-openly-approves-hong-kong-
ch...](http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-openly-approves-hong-kong-chaos-it-
created/5405387)

~~~
twelvechairs
Globalresearch is trash

[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca)

[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky)

------
verroq
I'm going to be pretty cynical there. China's shown it is willing use force
(and bigger army diplomacy) if necessary. Spreading the word about this in
China's even more difficult (internet censors). Unless the CCP buckles I can't
see HK coming out on top.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I know and I don't even have a VPN. I'm sure its getting around among those
who care.

I don't think China will involve the PLA in this; that would cause a huge
scare internationally. Instead, they'll just let the HK police deal with it
(and they seem to be hard enough). The HK elite basically run the territory
and are incredibly friendly to the central government.

~~~
refurb
I think the outcome of this will be super interesting. HK is now a part of
China and I'm sure that the CCP is concerned that these protests will spread
to the mainland.

My guess is that they will handle this in a very non-public way (no surprise
there!) working through the HK authorities. It will be brutal, but the CCP
knows what a heavy hand will get them (Tiananmen Square).

~~~
ivanw237
Unfortunately it's very unlikely this will spread to the mainland. Much
different from 1989, 100% of mainstream media in the mainland is heavily
censored. They have been brainwashing the last two generations for tens of
years. If you go weibo (Chinese version of Twitter) you will see the majority
of mainland Chinese think the unarmed students were extremely violent and the
police should shoot them.

The CCP has been doing very good at creating class conflicts and isolating
enemies.

~~~
verroq
I won't be surprised, self-censorship is rampant in the mainland community.

------
rdlecler1
This is going to be Tianmen all over again: kill the chicken to scare the
monkey. I remember seeing a photo of military vehicles coming into HK a couple
weeks ago. If West did little with Russia you can bet they'd do even less with
HK.

~~~
usaar333
Highly unlikely for same reasons that the 2003 protests didn't result in a
crack down. The rest of the world (especially business) actually cares about
Hong Kong. It'd be economic and political suicide to send in troops.

~~~
rdlecler1
The government backed down in 2003, which is why this could be different.
Unlike 2003 when China was still emerging, China is now legitimate and
increasingly assertive superpower. China is now much more hawkish than it had
been in the past. This is also a new government.

------
crazychrome
I feel sad for HK.

A protest led by teenagers? Where are the adults? If these teenagers were
devised, where are their parents? Do they have any idea whom they are fighting
against, fighting for?

Shame on all HK adults.

------
HeavenFox
As a result, Instagram was blocked in China a couple of hours ago. An
unfortunate collateral damage.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Last time OneDrive was blocked. Who knows what will be blocked after this...my
money is on CNN.

------
Guthur
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_and_the_Occupy_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_and_the_Occupy_movement)

...in case people forget about the clean up needed in their own backyard
first.

------
Shad0w59
The amount of hyperbole in this thread (and in the protest) is unbelievable.

Protesters are quick to talk this up as the next Tiananmen Square when in fact
looking at the ground it's nothing like it.

You just need to look at Hong Kong culture to see that this is being
overblown. It's the HK style, there's no middle ground, it's either the end of
the world or nothing worth mentioning.

Of course the people have a right to protest but people should really think
about what they are doing instead of getting delusional in the name of
"freedom".

Show some class for once, have a measured response not this circus that is
clearly going to end in a terrible car crash. It's already being hijacked by
troublemakers.

~~~
lotsofmangos
Those delusional freedom lovers with their low-class demands for better
representation. Next thing you know, they might start looting tea and throwing
it in the harbour.

~~~
wyuenho
[https://twitter.com/HemanChong/status/516383686355202048?utm...](https://twitter.com/HemanChong/status/516383686355202048?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=HemanChong&utm_content=516383686355202048)

~~~
guard-of-terra
Moscow 2011/2012 winter protests were like this too. I guess we barely hit
50k/event.

Unfortunately results are really discouraging.

