
Ask HN: Is now a good time to buy a new MacBook or should I wait? - aogl
So it&#x27;s time I bought myself a new machine. As a dev I feel gravitated towards the MBP line-up.
However, with all the stories I&#x27;ve been hearing about the 2016&#x2F;2017 models having weird keyboard issues and a rather large (too large) trackpad, along with the potential of a new model being released at some point this year apparently (32GB anyone?).. I&#x27;m not sure if I should just go for it or if waiting a while is a good idea.
What do you think? Any insider knowledge you could share that would help?
======
akulbe
Just wait. The 16/17 models are awful. See the post on the front page of HN
right now, about the keyboard repair program. Mine has been in _THREE TIMES_
for sound and keyboard issues. Worst Apple buy ever. YMMV.

~~~
aogl
I really wonder if the 2018 will be any better, or if they will simply just
push for more of the same. I saw the post about the repair plan, it's kind of
ridiculous, yet sadly unsurprising..

Perhaps going for one of the developer Dells with Ubuntu is the safest future
bet..

~~~
neoncontrails
As a longtime MBP user who just bought a Dell XPS 15, it’s the little things I
miss. File previews in finder. The seamless trackpad experience without having
to write a conf file to modify an open source driver. I don’t exactly miss the
UI, but I do miss the consistency of it. After scaling for the 4k hidpi
display, I’ve had to recalibrate a lot of microscopically tiny UI elements and
a few giant ones.

The developer edition laptops aren’t sold in a 15 inch version, which is why I
opted to tolerate the Windows factory install. However like other XPS 15
owners, I’ve had a lot of trouble trying to resolve conflicts between Ubuntu
and the NVIDIA gpu, which doesn’t seem to be compatible with Canonical’s open
source “nouveau” drivers which I think might be enabled by default on 18.04.
If you don’t mind the 13 inch display, the developer model might be worth
considering in light of the trouble I’ve had trying to seamlessly dual-boot.

~~~
beojan
The trick with Optimus seems to be to use the Intel iGPU for your desktop and
day to day work and bumblebee when you really need the NVidia GPU. Trying to
use the discrete GPU for the desktop is just an exercise in frustration (and a
waste of battery life).

------
cimmanom
The laptops are overdue for a refresh - both in terms of specs and in terms of
Apple's usual update cycle. Chances are there will be something a bit better
available if you can hold out for a few months.

When in doubt:
[https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac](https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac)

~~~
aogl
Oh wow, reading that link was really useful. Thank you. They sound absolutely
terrible at the moment to be honest!

~~~
dwaite
What people tend to not realize is that Apple has flagship models (iMac,
MacBook, MacBook Pro) and secondary models (MacBook Air, Mac mini, Mac Pro).

The flagship models used to be upgraded as technology came available, but are
now typically upgraded yearly. There's a suspicion that Apple held back the
hardware refresh from WWDC partially because they weren't ready w.r.t. the
keyboard repair program announced today.

MacBook Air is a zombie. I believe they want to kill it, but the retina
MacBook is too expensive to replace it, and it sells _extremely_ well (at high
margins).

The Mac mini is a zombie, or perhaps a bit of a square peg. It was meant as
the desktop switcher computer, where you plug in your old PC K/V/M and go.
Then it kinda sorta rebranded to be upgradable as a server circa 2012 (with
products like xServe discontinued), before actually losing those higher end
upgrade options in 2013. I think most people don't expect it to be usable as a
pro desktop, but Apple has a huge gap there since their desktop focus is on
the All-in-One iMac. So like the MacBook Air, the focus is on low cost and
good margins, not technology.

The Mac Pro they simply didn't predict the market well enough on. The GPU-
heavy design they were going for and external peripherals might actually fly
if it was coming out _today_ , but general purpose computing didn't embrace
using multithreading or OpenCL for getting better performance. So, the ability
to use the power of the machine was a bit hit-or-miss depending on the
application you were using. Worse, the thermal profile both had a max amount
of power and required an even distribution of heat. GPU processing power and
power consumption has scaled up due to the highly parallel nature, while
Intel's power consumption has stayed relatively the same. The design didn't
allow for them to swap out components for the newer ones that hit the market
after release.

iMac Pro is relatively new and likely a specialty product, although I imagine
Apple to take it seriously. So probably not a predictable once-per-year
release schedule, but I don't see a reason for that design to get silently
shelved and the line to stagnate.

------
aetherspawn
It’s fine, HN is really good at hyping up how bad something is.

I bought a 15” with touch bar and discrete GPU, as did another guy in my
office, and we’ve both had no issues after nearly 8 months .. it’s a very nice
machine and very performant.

My only complaint is the battery life is slightly less than the one I had
before, however it didn’t have a discrete chip so it’s not a fair comparison.

The new hinge design is fantastic and it’s very lightweight. I can
effortlessly wave it around with one hand and not get tired.

~~~
teaspoons
"I can effortlessly wave it around with one hand and not get tired"

~~~
pmontra
I agree that's a nice engineering achievement and a nice to have feature but
how important can this be when evaluating a laptop?

~~~
aetherspawn
It means I can practically move the laptop to and from meetings while holding
a coffee cup in the other hand, for example.

------
jillesvangurp
The current designs are close to a year old now and apple updates infrequently
and generally does not cut the price. So you are paying a premium for buying a
one year old design. Imho the best moment to buy is early in the product
cycle. You maximise the period the design is fresh and reasonably current. I
bought my 15" mbp last October when it was just out.

The flipside is of course that recent models are rather disappointing in many
ways. It's only marginally faster than the 2012 model it replaced, contains
the same amount of memory and cpu cores. And there is the keyboard, which is a
severe downgrade and has many flaws and the well documented reliability
issues. That 2012 model was the best piece of hw I ever owned. So, you can
wait but don't expect any miracles.

~~~
ChristianGeek
I have a 2014 MBP and love it as much as you seem to love your 2012! When it
comes time to replace it, I’ll probably look for a new or refurbished 2015
(the last model before the touch bar design) unless Apple does something
significant to the current design to make it more appealing to power users.

------
salex89
If you're not tied to MacBooks, it is a good time. You have a nice choice of
laptops with the new Intel CPUs, or Intel + AMD graphics, from 13" to 15",
finely made.

If you want a MacBook, for love of God, wait! The current generation is
seriously outdated in terms of hardware and disturbingly poorly made. I work
with 10 colleagues every day who mostly use the current generation MacBooks,
and couple of older ones. The newer are not bought at the same time, and we
all had/have keyboard issues, external monitor issues, updating issues (mine
was most severe, had to wipe the drive!), poor cooling... Quite disappointing.

The previous generation ones work like a charm.

------
nsteblay
I know it sounds weird but I started using a Pixelbook for development. With
the Crostini project you can now run Linux in a container. It is improving
with each release. Mark my words, this will be a developer's workstation of
choice in coming months.

~~~
cuchoi
What are the advantages of a Pixelbook over a XPS or a Thinkpad?

~~~
aogl
I'm starting to think the new Dell xps 13 with Ubuntu is the way to go..

------
app4soft
If you need OpenGL support -- buy it now.[0]

> _That 's what I was thinking to do, when Apple dropped a bombshell._

> [https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-
> new/](https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/)

> _OpenGL and OpenGL ES will be unavailable in macOS and iOS in the future OS
> versions. I was somewhat expecting it when Apple announced Metal. At the
> same time, I was hoping Apple to maintain relatively higher-level and
> standard graphics APIs. The expectation was shattered into pieces by this
> announcement._

If no -- then wait.

[0]
[http://ysflight.in.coocan.jp/main/e2018.html](http://ysflight.in.coocan.jp/main/e2018.html)

~~~
dwaite
Apple won't remove OGL support for years, but in the meantime now you know
they aren't going to put engineering time in newer OGL features or specs.

Microsoft OGL on Windows Classic is a shim to whatever the graphics card maker
provides. Effectively there are no OS that ship legitimate and non-deprecated
OGL support today.

Android AFAIK is the only platform that ships/mandates OGL ES. There are shims
to support OGL ES based on the platform 3D support, such as one GitHub project
Microsoft published that uses DirectX or one that I believe ships as part of
Steam on Mac platforms.

AFAIK there is no platform that ships and mandates Vulkan. Unfortunately
Android does not require it on new devices yet.

This is really more like Apple deprecating their OpenSSL libraries - they are
telling people that Apple isn't going to maintain it going forward, so you
should stop using their copy and bundle your own.

------
thijsvandien
Now is a good time to get a new 2015 model, if you can live with the specs,
considering it's still available but might not be much longer. It will buy you
time until Apple get their act together again.

~~~
taf2
I just did this, best Mac laptop IMO.

------
cjcampbell
I would suggest waiting due to probable refresh timing, though I don’t think
16/17 are bad machines by any stretch (just a bit over-priced for what Apple
delivered).

My biggest complaint is the inability to upgrade storage. 18 months in, I’m
facing the need to upgrade due to an uptick in container and VM based projects
that necessitate a large chunk of scratch space. I recently taught a 300-level
networks class and had a couple students who had also underestimated their
storage needs.

I don’t love the keyboard, but my accuracy is improved on it. I also haven’t
encountered any colleagues, students, or friends who have encountered any key
issues.

The trackpad is large, but it works like a dream most of the time. I only
experience an occasional wrist detection fail, and this usually occurs when
I’m working in bed with awkward hand positioning.

I haven’t seen any issues with 16GB, even when running numerous containers and
virtual machines. I’d love the option for more/upgradeable RAM, but I’m
satisfied with this config for now.

Battery life is decent in practice. It’s not all day, but it’ll get me through
a flight without any trouble so far. The flexibility of USB-C PD is awesome. I
carry a tiny 60W Dart-C adapter when I’m on the go and I’ve even used a 30W
adapter in a pinch. Either one will keep my 15in 2016 MBP running all day.

------
throwaway413
I personally really like the new keyboards. When I did have a problem with it
- I had read that very small things get stuck behind the keys, so I repeatedly
pressed extremely quickly and hard on the key several times, and it fixed the
problem right there and then. Have done that several times since to fix the
stuck problem and has worked 100% of the time.

Also, I was looking for the 16gh RAM, 500GB HDD 15" Pro. Something like $3100
from Apple. I went to Best Buy and they were running a $200 off promotion on
them. On top of that, I found the exact model I was looking for as an open
model, someone having returned it the previous day. Didn't have a single
scratch - was discounted to $2150. They respected the promotion and I got a
(like) new MBP Pro for $1950.

I chalk this up to the fact that so many other people seem to really dislike
these machines.

------
ggm
One thing I ponder, is how my proficiency in doing things to code dropped,
when I moved to eye candy. Moving back to a focus on text editors and screens
of code rather than skuomorphisms and virtual desk movement animations cost me
some whine time, but once back in a simpler tiled wm world I feel much more
productive.

You may actually not want those pixels. Or that graphics chip.

~~~
godot
Gosh, I thought I was the only one!

I've only recently noticed this because of setting up my latest Linux laptop.
(I use a MBP for work because every tech company just gives you one now
without an option for another OS.) I wanted a modern Linux laptop personally
for hobby work so I bought a PC one and installed Antergos Linux on it.
Antergos comes with Gnome by default (unless you select something else on
install). Modern Gnome (3.28 in my case) was made to be pretty similar to
macOS. Permanent top bar with status icons on the right, dash-to-dock which
basically behaves like macOS's dock, and so on. Lots of eye candy animation as
you switch between apps / desktop spaces, etc.

I'm fairly happy with it, but then I had to open up my very old laptop with
CentOS 7 (with KDE Plasma for UI) installed on it to clear it out and finally
get rid of it; and found myself instantly feeling good and productive with
that old school KDE style UI (which was made to be similar to old school
Windows. Not even Win10, but like the WinXP/Vista time with start menu and
taskbar with rectangular tabs at the bottom). I'm actually thinking about
installing KDE on this new laptop and switching over now; but I just spent a
lot of time configuring everything in Gnome to my liking and feel like I'd
keep this for a while first.

~~~
ggm
The gun coder at work went to a lenovo Carbon X1 running the release of Linux
which drives it best and he's happy and productive and has no MBP envy. After
touchbar, I am very tempted to make the same move when renewal time comes
round.

~~~
some_account
I want to make the switch too but the apps are simply not of the same quality.
For example I use Bear on mac for notes and screenshots, and nothing nothing
on Linux could paste a screen shot from clip board into a notes taking
program.

There are many small things like this.... Otherwise I would love to use a
carbon with Linux.

------
slipwalker
Apple hardware does not come cheap, although the retina screens are great, so,
do you reeeeaaally need a Mac ( iOS development is the _only_ reason i can
imagine ) ?! For everything else, Linux should be more than fine, and the dell
xps is a _great_ solid line of machines...

~~~
aogl
I'm starting to agree with you on this actually. I'll write a post on this if
I end up going this route.

~~~
slipwalker
please, share it. I would read it eagerly. :)

------
insulanus
If you're not sure, I wouldn't do it. I don't feel like my work machine is any
faster than my personal 2015 model, and I like typing on the older one better.

The historical update cycle says "no", as well:
[https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Retina_MacBook_Pro](https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Retina_MacBook_Pro)

~~~
aogl
Can you still buy the 2015 models?

~~~
taf2
Yes you can buy them directly from Apple. [https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-
mac/macbook-pro/15-inch](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro/15-inch)

Bottom of that page, just had to replace my 2013 and decided I didn’t want to
deal with the new MBP and it’s silly touchbar or failing keys, or oversized
trackpad. Ordered it with max memory, and happily transferred everything from
old to old.

~~~
aogl
I don't see any 13s, clearly this only applies to the 15s?

------
deepaksurti
Recently I had a similar question.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17262538](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17262538)

I am waiting it out.

------
pcmoney
I would wait, they will announce some level of refresh in September, possibly
with new auxiliary Apple designed chips or Face ID etc. and they will have
fixed keyboard gate by then.

~~~
aogl
What makes you think that Sept will be the month?

------
bencollier49
Get a 2015 model while you still can...

~~~
secfirstmd
Agreed. Mine is just amazing. No complaints at all and still goes like a
rocket (I went for the max spec MBP)

