

Show HN: We'll save your ass one day - hagyma
https://custodly.ssl.dotcloud.com/

======
latitude
Oh, hai.

I tried this idea in application to the graphic design area specifically
targeting logo and brand designers [0]. It was called CertTime and it failed
_spectacularly_. It was pretty much like selling insurance to the ignorant.

The actual idea got substantial support of the Logopond community when I first
described it [1]. I also solved the usability and trust issue by outsourcing
time stamping and actual signing to VeriSign. The service took the client's
file, made a self-extracting archive out of it and then signed the exe with
Microsoft's AuthentiCode [2]. Checking the time stamp was as easy as right-
clicking on the .exe and checking the Digital Signature tab. I think this idea
was a stroke of genius... but in the end it did not matter.

I got ZERO traction. In retrospect I should've paid closer attention to the
lack of interest I got on Typophile [3][4], where the community is more mature
and less excitable than on Logopond.

That said, there is a number of companies that offer similar service - Surety,
GuardTime, Recomobo, Digistamp, MyOws, etc. Some are based around a technical
solution [5] while most are based around "we are lawyers, we swear it was done
on Jan 1, 1913, and you must trust us" kind of approach. MyOws would be the
most active in consumer segment, and they have accumulated their current user
base through iPad giveaways and what not.

Finally, I want to say - good luck, guys, hope you can pull it off. There is a
need for a very simple digital notary service, but it comes with the need to
educate your target audience. I was not up for that, but perhaps you are.

[0] <http://swapped.cc/certtime> and <http://certtime.com>

[1] <http://pondpad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3578>

[2] [http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/ms537361(v=vs.85).as...](http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/ms537361\(v=vs.85\).aspx)

[3] <http://typophile.com/node/62669>

[4] <http://typophile.com/node/63838>

[5] <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3161.txt>

( _edit_ ) Oh, by the way. Regarding the "what is it in you" point. My idea
was to establish a sizable userbase of people routinely using the service (in
part by integrating with various graphic design galleries and portfolios
around the web), use that to demonstrate the consumer-level need for trusted
timestamping to VeriSign and other companies and then try and sell the company
to them. See, they are in a situation when a lot of money and effort is spent
on deploying and running timestamping infrastructure (for example to support
codesigning), but they have no way of charging for its services directly. If
one can prepare and proof a paid market for them, they could not not be
interested.

Trying to charge people directly for this sort of service is unrealistic at
best.

( _edit_ ) Dug up the Q&A, which took me several weeks to put together -
<http://swapped.cc/certtime/faq.png> \- it has some lesser obvious points to
consider and mull over.

~~~
hagyma
Thanks for describing your experience. This site really was some kind of a
hackathlon for us. Not to mention the need for it.

Sometimes I was in the need to secure a document, sealed at a lawyer. My
clients wanted to be sure that the information won't change in case we have to
say good bye. :)

Anyway... This is our very first public product made for anyone. I hope you
guys like the idea. We can take it to any level if needed. :)

~~~
latitude
With all due respect - your service as it exists is completely useless. You
either need to be prepared to go to the court to testify for other people _or_
you need to provide reliable, court-tested technical solution for trusted
time-stamping.

Basically consider this - if the push comes to shove and someone is getting
served C&D letter or worse yet getting sued over their idea, how _exactly_
does your service help them? Or even how would _you_ use in such situation,
since you said you built it around your personal need?

~~~
hagyma
Oooooo... that's way too serious. I will be more than happy if I can just show
you as goodfellas what have i thought of a little earlier.

And again... this is a concept, that maybe useless, but it was a lof of fun to
create and learn from comments it receives.

------
morisy
Reminds me of the old "Poor Man's Patent": Write your idea, invention, etc. on
a piece of paper, and mail it to yourself in a sealed (possibly certified)
letter as proof of date of invention.

Unfortunately that, and likely this, will provide little legal protection:

[http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/innovation/the-poor-mans-
pa...](http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/innovation/the-poor-mans-patent)

Bragging rights, however, are now yours for posterity, which might have its
own value to many - just don't think this will help you out in court,
particularly without third-party auditing (not that _that_ would help much,
either).

~~~
hagyma
True!

This actually is the poor entrepreneur's experimental patent.

We should settle this case outsite the courtroom ;)

------
giberson
While I understood (I think) the purpose of the site, I couldn't help but hold
a reserved amount of skepticism. "What's in it for you?" underlined my
consideration of using this service. It appears to be free. I don't see any
ads that might supply you with ad revenue. I'm keenly aware it costs money to
purchase a domain, host a site and buy an SSL certificate so obviously you'll
incur costs--so how is it you plan to recoup them. I can't imagine I'm being
provided a service out of the generosity of your kind heart. So then I start
thinking, maybe they'll charge you to unlock it? Or worse, maybe this is not a
protection service at all, maybe it's a mining scam, to steal ideas.

Perhaps I'm being overly skeptical, but I thought I'd share my thoughts so
that you might be aware of them, and figure out a way to address them to
alleviate some paranoia of your potential customers.

~~~
hagyma
Here is my corresponding blog post: <http://hagyma.posterous.com/entering>

We are totally working on something else by the way... As you see in my blog
post, I saw one of my ideas appear on another site... so we came up with this
concept to save my ass on the first place. :)

And using the generous offer from dotcloud for beta users, this with the ssl
is hosted for free.

------
beagledude
What a brilliant way to steal ideas, upload your best stuff to me :)

~~~
hagyma
Thanks! If the concept works out though, we'll implement some client side
encryption, so we won't be able to see what you submit.

There are no attachments yet, but if there will be, you can just have your own
way of encryption and load a single file up... but that won't prove you later
on...

Not easy...

------
nck4222
I can't figure out the point of this website.

From what I can tell, you enter in your idea, and it basically timestamps it
for you. Then if someone else makes it big with the same idea, you can say
"Hey I thought of that first."

You seem to be saying that the website will help prevent the idea from
"getting out" before I can implement it. But I don't see how entering my idea
to a website will stop other people from finding out about it or independently
thinking it.

I'm confused, and could use some more explaining about what this is and why I
need it.

~~~
hagyma
This site is not a time machine... too bad... but... Let's say you have an
idea. Obviously somewhere else on the planet anybody can come up with the same
thing same idea.

That other guy publishes it first while you are still in the making. If you
save your idea here, you'll be able to prove that you did not steel it.

It is just a concept site. Tell me why it sucks! :)

------
gkop
A truly useful trusted timestamping system should prove that Alice said x at y
time. By asking only for name/email on your form, I don't see any way of
cryptographically verifying Alice's identity.

~~~
hagyma
You are right.

This is one of the reasons why this concept site is a tiny, tiny idea saver,
that may save a couple of rookies along the way.

I can't see custodly in a defense case just yet.

------
omh
Is that an advert in your captcha? Seriously?

~~~
hagyma
Crappy, ha? I saw it over on techcrunch the other day. Solvemedia. I thought
we should try it out.

~~~
omh
Why?

~~~
hagyma
mostly it looks really bad... but sometimes it surprises you with a logo :)

------
daok
I may be not enough informed but if someone create a patent one of your idea,
even a website like that won't do anything?

~~~
hagyma
If you have proof that you had something working before a patent was filed,
you are saved I think.

Still, legal issues are hard to crack... we should just keep thinking on how
to avoid lawsuits and patent trolls.

------
derrida
Why is this better than encrypting a text file with my idea written down and
sending it to myself via email?

~~~
hagyma
You can manipulate emails later on, while on this exerimental site, your
released info has the lock up date, so visitors can be sure, it has not been
changed since creation.

------
rsanheim
It should be "lose", not "loose". Please fix that.

~~~
hagyma
Thanks! Will be fixed in a minute! dotcloud push :)

