
Those people who need very little sleep - FollowSteph3
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150706-the-woman-who-barely-sleeps
======
batou
I need very little sleep. I go to bed about 1am and wake up about 5-5:30am
every day. I'm never tired.

I had a two day long migraine in 1995 and have been like it ever since. Never
had a migraine after that one either. Had my nut stuffed in an MRI and nothing
showed up. My neurologist said he's at a loss. No complaining though.

~~~
tbassetto
Hello from this other side of the spectrum! I need at least 8h/day of sleep to
NOT have a migraine. If I don't set an alarm my mind/body will happily sleep 9
to 10 hours a day.

~~~
davnicwil
As someone whose body will also, without an alarm, sleep naturally for 9-10
hours or longer on a weekend no problem, I wonder if you've ever felt looked
down upon for this trait by certain people?

I've definitely told people this in the past and had negative reactions
ranging from the mild disbelief "You're serious, how can that be possible? I
don't believe you" to the outright offended "What is wrong with you (as a
person)? Why would you want to spend so much time sleeping? That's wrong and
ridiculous behaviour".

I do find it curious how some people tend to get really uppity about this
issue. As though one's sleeping habits are reflective of character and morals,
or something, rather than just being a natural trait which differs person to
person and which one has no choice in. Where does this come from?

~~~
joshvm
I've found that too and it annoys me a lot. I put it down to having more
exciting dreams than them. I've spent plenty of late Saturday mornings
gallivanting around my own mind.

EDIT: Also, people confuse sleeping late with sleeping too much. If you go to
bed at 4AM, getting up at Midday isn't so crazy.

~~~
OJFord
Please help me explain this to my roommates..

------
bigtunacan
While it's an interesting read, it doesn't really provide enough information
to show that this is a good thing. What is the average lifespan of people with
this mutation?

Even if Abby lives a normal lifespan we still have too little data we need
some randomized samples.

I come from a family of short sleepers. I always go to bed later than my wife
and wake up earlier with more energy, this is still the case now that I'm in
my 30s, but I have severe health problems compared to the average person my
age. Is this related to not getting enough sleep or just another example of
confounding.

It would be good to see some real statistical evidence to show that her
mutation is even positive.

~~~
gwern
I don't believe any harm has been identified yet, so any harm must be much
more subtle than most genetic disorders one might be thinking of.

But if you're looking for an evolutionary rationale, the extra energy
expenditure of 4+ hours additional wakefulness (either on its own or due to
extra synaptic energy consumption if you accept Tononi's SHY theory of sleep)
is a sufficient reproductive-fitness penalty in a pre-modern context to
explain why it's rare.

> we need some randomized samples.

These pretty much are randomized samples. You can look at the siblings and
relatives and now you've got Mendelian randomization, I think.

Further reading:

"A Gene That Makes You Need Less Sleep?"
[http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/a-gene-
make...](http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/a-gene-makes-you-
need-less-sleep) ; HN discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8215872](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8215872)

"Heritability of Performance Deficit Accumulation During Acute Sleep
Deprivation in Twins"
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3413799/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3413799/)
Kuna et al 2012

"The Transcriptional Repressor DEC2 Regulates Sleep Length in Mammals"
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884988/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884988/)
He et al 2010

"A Novel BHLHE41 Variant is Associated with Short Sleep and Resistance to
Sleep Deprivation in Humans"
[https://pdf.yt/d/i-sxyELBIBsir7uy](https://pdf.yt/d/i-sxyELBIBsir7uy)
Pellegrino et al 2014

~~~
applecore
N.B. The principle of _TANSTAAFL_ in an evolutionary “pre-modern context”
seems to pair well with the more recent theory of _WGYHWGYT_ as a
framework/mental model for modern dilemmas.

TANSTAAFL: “There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.”

WGYHWGYT: “What got you here won't get you there.”

------
BillTheCat
I wish I only needed 4 hours of sleep a night. I hate going to bed and wasting
1/3rd of the day passed out. Or getting less than that and feeling groggy and
lethargic all day.

I always hear these stories of people who can live happily on 4 hours of sleep
and am insanely jealous.

~~~
bachmeier
If you can't be sufficiently productive in 16 hours a day, I'm not sure having
another 4 hours is going to help.

~~~
Scramblejams
That assumes you get to spend all 16 as you choose.

If you have to spend 9-11 hours at work, more time helping with homework and
housework, more time shuttling dependents around, etc., etc., you can end up
with very little time left to spend how you choose. Adding 4 hours to that
could be like multiplying your one free hour that's left by 5.

------
mrfusion
I find exercise and also deep learning, challenging mental tasks make me need
7-8 hours, but otherwise when I have a series of hum drum days with no
exercise I'm fine with 6 hours.

Does anyone else find that?

~~~
spacemanmatt
6 hours seems to be the new magic number since I started doing 90m of ashtanga
yoga daily. I get much better sustained energy output throughout the day, too.

~~~
magic_beans
Yoga has done so much for my energy, productivity, and happiness. I wish I'd
taken it up years ago.

~~~
KurtMueller
Can you expound a bit as to why it has helped you? How do you know it was yoga
instead of healthier life habits in general? How did you get started?

Thanks!

~~~
spacemanmatt
For my experience, the increased physical activity kicked my body into a
higher gear, I guess. My food preferences went toward denser energy and high
protein, and my sleep needs shrank a little. I feel like the combined
meditation and exercise is driving the healthier lifestyle; it's not an
accidental related thing.

------
stevesimmons
I can relate to this article. I go to bed at 1am and get up at 5:45. I prefer
to be at work by 6:30am and work solid 12+ hour days, with ideally a gym
session mid-morning, a run at lunchtime, and 2-3 hours more sport in the
evening. Dinner is often at 10:30pm. Basically, I can go all day at full speed
and never get tired from mental or physical effort. I'd pack even more into
each day if my partner would let me.

Sometimes I worry my body will break. That rarely stops me though, so long as
I get 4.5 hours' sleep. Less than 4 and my concentration span is reduced, I
get susceptible to colds and am more easily irritated.

Clearly there's a genetic difference here. I count myself very lucky for my
extra productive hours.

------
paulcole
Then there's the co-workers who say they need little sleep, when the truth is
their productivity is suffering...

~~~
kazinator
Or maybe they are spending it elsewhere? With, say, 4 hours of sleep, you have
20 waking hours. If 8 of those waking hours are at work, 12 aren't, right?

~~~
supercoder
If only people spent as little as 8 hours at work.

------
brandonmenc
My dad only needed 4 hours of sleep.

He worked 12-16 hour days, went to grad school at night, and still managed to
run or hit the gym every day. He was never tired, and actively tried to cut
back on his sleeping time.

Now he has diabetes, and the doctors are nearly 100% convinced it was due to a
lifetime of lack of sleep.

Beware.

~~~
hudj1jcnapru38
All I can conclude from that is the doctors don't seem like they understand
epidemiological science.

~~~
brandonmenc
Well, he had no other risk factors.

No family history, life-long Mediterranean diet, never drank more than just a
couple glasses of wine a year, lots of physical activity, low body fat (like,
pretty jacked actually), perfect blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.

Sure, there could be something genetic that never presented itself in any
other family member, but the lack of sleep is what stuck out most to the
doctors.

------
syncopatience

      “It’s wonderful to have so many hours in my day – I
      feel like I can live two lives,” she says.
    
      ...
    
      “There’s this social view that short sleeping is a good 
      thing and should be encouraged – we’re always hauling 
      out the example of Margaret Thatcher and top CEOs who 
      don’t need much sleep. In fact, the amount of sleep you 
      need is genetically determined as much as your height 
      or shoe size. Some people need very little sleep, 
      others need 11 or 12 hours to feel their best.”
    

I don't think sleeping less is only better from a social view - like this lady
says, she sleeps 4 hours and she feels like she can live two lives. If I need
to sleep 12 hours to feel rested, doesn't it stand to reason that I can only
live half a life? Maybe sleeping less than you need to feel your best is a
worthwhile trade if you can spend more time living...

~~~
Nicholas_C
Sleep is the cousin of death.

------
hayksaakian
It's amazing how humans spend one third of their life asleep, but the science
of sleep is still very exploratory and inconclusive.

------
gprasant
Without an alarm, I tend to sleep 4 hours a day. But this is provided I dont
exercise. If I go to workout at a gym / Martial arts, I find I have to sleep 7
hours. But both these cases, I do not need an alarm to wake me up. I wake up
about 5 minutes before the alarm is going to ring and Stretch in my bed. When
the alarm goes I jump off the bed. I actually feel more energized when I sleep
for just 4 hours. But I need a 20m nap in the afternoon if this is the case.
My schedule is

(without exercise) - 10:30 PM to 2:30 AM (with exercise) - 11 PM to 6 AM.

I would love to study more about the effects of sleep and how we can control
it.

------
dicroce
Are there any DNA analyses services that look for DEC2? I think I may have
this..

~~~
djcary
23andme does, but it doesn't include it in the default report.

You can go to
[https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/gene/?gene_name=BHLHE41](https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/gene/?gene_name=BHLHE41)
and check your raw data to see if you're heterozygotic.

~~~
gwern
Drat. rs4963955: TT; rs4963956: CC; rs1480037: CC. Of course, I already knew I
was not a short-sleeper but one can always hope for a hidden superpower...

~~~
conwayanderson
Hmm. I have TT, CC, and CT but I generally sleep terribly.

Does anyone know of more research on what would cause this to be expressed?
Maybe I just need to be more consistent with my schedule.

------
kendallpark
I had a friend like this in college, a high-energy athletic dude. I don't
remember the exact details, but I believe in his case it had to do with his
body over-producing iron. He only needed 3-4 hours of sleep a night and his
father needed even less (and would routinely work 24 hour shifts at the
hospital).

I was a bit jealous of him. I'd love an extra four hours to my day.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
>and would routinely work 24 hour shifts at the hospital

This is one of my fears, that we'll crack the sleep nut and then workers will
be forced into double shifts gradually. Sure, it'll be done with a velvet
glove as the prices of goods and real estate will go up as everyone around you
works 16 hour days and their wages reflect that (or dont get fired for not
doing it). The same way an affordable middle class life went from only having
one breadwinner to two as women entered the workforce.

I sincerely hope we have some kind of robot/automation labor revolution well
before that. I'd rather build a better robot than a better human.

~~~
kendallpark
Parkinson's Law.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_law)

You could technically use the extra time for leisure. But you know that for
some people the time would be just be filled with more work. I think it will
greatly depend on the status quo of the field and one's personality.

------
drzaiusapelord
>Short-sleepers like Ross never feel lethargic, nor do they ever sleep in.

I'd be curious to know what her IQ is, how good her memory is, how good her
puzzle solving ability is, how creative she is, and other metrics. I'm always
a little surprised when I read interviews with people I admire at how much
sleep they need. Seems to me, that people who are thought/analytic/creative
heavy just rough up their brains more and that might mean a need for longer
sleep schedules to recuperate.

>A positive outlook is common among all of the short-sleepers that Fu has
studied.

Smart people are almost always fairly negative if not outright depressed.
There's a lot of study in this area. This is an interesting result.

I wonder if being a low sleep person comes at the cost of smarts and
creativity. Maybe DEC2 comes along with other things we're not looking at and
that package may be unappealing once we get the whole picture.

------
jonmrodriguez
Would the DEC2 mutation be amenable to being given to adults via a gene
therapy?

~~~
imaginenore
I don't think anybody here is capable of answering that. We simply haven't
tried anything like that on humans. We have the technology called CRISPR/Cas,
which was used (successfully) to cure adult mice of genetic liver disease.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRISPR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRISPR)

------
latimer
Anecdotally, I've found that the method in the article about having a fixed
wake-up time worked for me. In college I used to sleep 8-9 hours a night and
would feel awful if I got less than 7. I have trouble sleeping early even when
I'm tired so when I started working I was only sleeping 5-6 hours and could
barely make it through the work day even loaded up with caffeine. After half a
year or so I noticed I could skip the caffeine and still felt alert. Now even
if I try I can't sleep more than 8 hours.

------
jacquesm
I used to be one of those. Then I got the interest bill and since then I seem
to be able to sleep through whole days if I let myself (I don't). My
productivity took a pretty good hit but when I have to I can still go at a
good clip for about a month or two (high intensity jobs, ship on fire kind of
stuff). Then after that I run out of steam and need to recover for a while.

------
camillomiller
People who need little sleep are often in position of power or great
responsibility. Did they achieved great things and became successful also
because of this trait, or is it a trait they developed because of success and
the need to do a huge number of things during a longer day?

------
mandeepj
I have seen if you go to bed by 12 or 12:30 am and wake up by 6 or 6:30 am
then you are fine and might feel fresh also but the more you delay..the more
harder time you will have getting up in the morning even if you slept for the
same number of hours.

~~~
lukaslalinsky
I have no medical knowledge, but intuitively this makes sense to me. If you
stay up longer, you need longer to refresh. It's not like you can stay up for
24 hours and then just get a regular sleep.

I have a similar pattern, but I need around 7-8 hours of sleep, so mine starts
at 11 pm and waking up between 6 or 6:30 am.

------
qntmfred
my dad fractured his skull when he was a kid, and ever since gets by on ~4
hours of sleep.

~~~
metasean
I had a colleague and have a friend of a friend, both of whom were in car
accidents as adults. In both cases, their need for sleep dropped to about 4
hours a night and their intellectual abilities skyrocketed.

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Practicality
There are so many extremes here that I just want to mention that I actually
sleep 7-8 hours.

Something that is apparently only normal if you aren't talking on HN. :)

(Less causes problems, more is not needed... so pretty average)

------
swagswag
I am able to sleep at 4 AM and wake up at 5:30 AM fully rested, each day. No
naps, with exercise.

