
Ask HN: I'm going to China. What privacy precautions can/should I take? - hazz99
In the title. I&#x27;ve never been to Asia before, and I&#x27;m very excited for the trip.<p>I&#x27;m an outspoken advocate for e-rights, from privacy to freedom of information. Needless to say, I don&#x27;t mesh well with, nor agree with Chinese govt. policy.<p>Is there anything I should know before going? I&#x27;ve heard horror stories about dissidents being kidnapped for speaking out, etc. I&#x27;m unsure what stories are fact, what stories are exaggerated, and what stories are pure fiction.<p>I&#x27;m respectful, and obviously won&#x27;t go and force my views on others, but where is the dividing line? Should I never mention the great firewall? Should I get a VPN, or is that illegal?<p>Thanks for any advice.
======
Bakary
Somehow Westerners going to China seem to think that they matter a whole lot
to the Chinese government. The ego-bruising truth is that you don't matter in
the slightest. The airports are actually less dystopian than in the US by a
great measure, and nobody really cares what you might have on your hard
drives, what blog posts with a whopping 62 shares you might have made in the
past or whatever other crypto-democratic scenario you might fantasize about.
To get in trouble you really have to go out of your way to do so by actively
organizing unrest. Chinese people do talk openly about sensitive topics, they
just probably won't be too interested in doing so with someone who doesn't
speak Chinese well, although it did happen to me a few times (in a university
setting, mind you). Just use common sense in conversations. Get a VPN, read
reviews to check if it works in China. If you need a pay-as-you-go SIM card,
make sure your phone has the right bands. Be prepared for a slow connection
sometimes. That's about it.

~~~
hazz99
> Somehow Westerners going to China seem to think that they matter a whole lot
> to the Chinese government. The ego-bruising truth is that you don't matter
> in the slightest.

Although I believe this is the truth, you'll forgive me for taking precautions
when traveling to a country that has imprisoned people with similar views to
my own.

I'm not worried about that happening, per se, moreso afraid of being rude and
knowing what to avoid.

> To get in trouble you really have to go out of your way to do so by actively
> organizing unrest.

This is comforting, and good to hear from someone with more experience than I.

> Chinese people do talk openly about sensitive topics, they just probably
> won't be too interested in doing so with someone who doesn't speak Chinese
> well, although it did happen to me a few times (in a university setting,
> mind you).

I'm going on a program between universities, so I hope this happens! I love a
good philosophical/political discussion, which is why I made this HN post,
because I was afraid that my tendencies could land me in hot water.

Thanks for the reality check though, and for the rest of the advice.

~~~
Bakary
Cheers, apologies for being a little caustic. The reason is that once you drop
the preconceptions and get into the vibe it makes your stay 100% better. China
is usually safer than most Western nations, the worst that usually happens to
foreigners is that you might get scammed by a taxi driver (not counting
foolish self-inflicted problems such as drug use or visa issues) The best
advice I can give you is to be as outgoing as you can be since I'm assuming
that you are in an at least second-tier city where there is a lot to do: you
will be richly rewarded.

------
z2
Use a non-Chinese carrier if possible (if you are from the US, Project Fi, or
the T-Mobile plan with unlimited international roaming come to mind). You get
a built-in tunnel to the home country and full access to the internet that
way. Lots of basic VPN connections are actively killed though you probably
won't be punished for trying. Ssh tunneling works fine.

Maps in China are scrambled by some random distance (ostensibly on national
security grounds), so you may want to download a local mapping app such as
Baidu maps to get your true location and not be 200 meters displaced in a
random direction.

Statistically much of China is under-policed [0], especially in the east, so
while it depends on where you are, if you don't draw lots of attention to
yourself, nobody really cares.

0:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers)

~~~
desdiv
>Statistically much of China is under-policed [0]

That table is slightly misleading depending on how you count police forces.
China's numbers are slightly shewed due to the 1.5 million strong People's
Armed Police[0] not being included.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Armed_Police](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Armed_Police)

------
fermienrico
Set up a VPN using Streisand [1]. I usually setup a Digital Ocean server in
Singapore running Shadowsocks VPN using Streisand.

Forget about all other comments here suggesting a particular VPN service.
Trust me, this is the way to go. I go to China for work multiple times a year.
Not only will you suffer with sporadic speeds, latency, dropped connections
and you’ll need to pre-download clients or configuration files before you
enter China in some cases (Astrill). Stop looking further, Streisand gives you
options for your own private VPN. Delete the server once you’re out of there.

Streisand is a godsent when you need VPN and you don’t know which ones are not
blocked without going to dozens of shady forums.

Also, it’s obvious but do not discuss politics in China with your friends or
coworkers. Enjoy food that normal middle class eats at extremely crowded high
turnover lunch places. You won’t get sick and the food is going to be amazing.
Don’t have anything that is “free”. It’s a trap.

[1]
[https://github.com/StreisandEffect/streisand](https://github.com/StreisandEffect/streisand)

~~~
hazz99
Streisand looks fantastic, but I'm a little confused on the installation steps
(not super skilled with AWS, still a student)

Do I just run these on an EC2 instance?

    
    
        git clone https://github.com/StreisandEffect/streisand.git && cd streisand
        ./util/venv-dependencies.sh ./venv
         source ./venv/bin/activate
    
    

And then there will be a HTML file which will explain how I can connect over
SSL from my client device. Is that it?

~~~
fermienrico
There are a few steps but you're on the right path. Read the documentation on
Github and then once you run `./streisand`, you just need to follow
instructions on CLI.

It will ask you to get an API key from Digital Ocean in my case, location of
the droplet, etc. It will create a new droplet automatically and get it up and
running in about 20-30 mins. Once you're done, you'll get a link to login in
your server and download configuration/clients.

------
jason_slack
I recently spent 2 months in China

1\. WeChat and Alipay. It was hard for me to get vendors to accept paper
money.

2\. Google Translate

3\. The plane ride might be hard if you normally use your devices. I was not
allowed to watch my devices. I had to only watch pre-approved content from the
planes entertainment system.

4\. VPN. I even went as far and carried a portable router that supported vpn
and tor.

5\. I bought a cellphone there and a cheap data package and used this phone
for everything including Baidu Maps. Translating. Paying. If doesn’t work here
in the US even so I will save for my next trip.

6\. If spoken to by the police answer then. Same with customs and border
patrol. Don’t be a smart ass.

7\. People are open to talking. They know about the great firewall and their
countries politics. Don’t say anything negative about President Xi. You may
offend the people you are talking with. The locals would much rather ask you
questions about the USA.

8\. Try to learn some basic Chinese. It will help. I could give you a crash
course if you want.

9\. Depending upon where you are staying you may get cards slid under your
door advertising prostitution. I asked friend about this and they were mixed
wether it was a setup or not. I noticed it was a high school age boy that was
sliding them under the doors. His after school job I guess.

10\. I took my own laptop. I was never searched. Nothing ever taken from me. I
used security precautions just in case though.

~~~
GordonS
I find the 1st point rather odd; I've spent a lot of time in Beijing and
Shanghai, and visited several other places including Guilin, Nanjing and
Suzhou, and never once had any problems using cash.

~~~
jason_slack
I was in Xiamen, Fujian. Mostly street vendors didn’t want to take it. They
would either refuse or say they could not make change so I needed to buy more
food or not accept change and come back another day and they would remember I
overpaid.

------
pmehta123
I was in China last month, there is nothing to worry about. I did not face any
issue as such except for the language barrier. So, download google translate.

For VPN - Get VPNExpress app before leaving your country. All apps work great
with it. If you are going for a long time, I recommend getting a paid version
of VPNExpress.

Also, download didi app for cabs. And, get a sim card from the airport. Mine
costed 50 Yen for 1GB data and 50 minutes of calling.

Have a safe trip :)

~~~
rqs
Install Google Translate was really a good tip. And Maybe some paper strips
with translated sentences printed on it could also be helpful.

And don't forget to download a map app, not only it can prevent taxi scam to a
degree, also it can help you ... well, navigate. I could recommend
AutoNavi[0], but I'm not sure about whether or not it had English version.

[0]
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.autonavi.m...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.autonavi.minimap)

------
evgen
It would be best if you did not take your personal laptop. Get a cheap
chromebook and put your important data on a cloud service of some sort. Once
you pass through customs you need to completely wipe the laptop, re-install a
trusted version, then pull down the data you need. Wipe the laptop again
before you leave and be prepared to just leave it behind if it ever left your
physical control during your trip. Find out which VPN services are currently
working from China and also familiarize yourself with shadowsocks.

You need a disposable phone that does not have any data on it (contacts,
notes, photos, etc) that you do not want to share with the Chinese government.
If possible you should get a SIM card from Hong Kong and use that since it is
less likely to have VPN and other connections blocked.

Beyond this you should look to some of the online guides out there targeted at
journalists and how they can protect themselves, most of the same rules will
apply to you in this situation.

~~~
thisgoodlife
Did you forget /s? or are you really that paranoid?

~~~
Havoc
Which part sounds paranoid to you?

~~~
GordonS
Not taking your personal laptop and using a burner phone both sound
unnecessarily paranoid to me at least.

------
liulantao
We (in China) use VPN software everyday to get access to most of the website
(FB/Google/Twitter/IG/Slack, etc). It's illegal to sell VPN service without
government permission, but no one will catch you if you are a user.

Almost all the Chinese business accept mobile payments, if you _do_ care about
privacy, you should prepare enough RMBs.

------
Canada
I'm assuming you're going to a major city and aren't visiting a sensitive area
like Tibet or Xinjiang. I highly recommend using a foreign mobile carrier so
that you won't need to bother with a VPN on your mobile. It's just easier when
you're new there.

Dissidents are kidnapped for speaking out, that is true, but that's because
they have potential to influence the masses. You probably don't have that kind
of influence, so nobody cares what you think or say.

You should definitely prepare a VPN before you leave. I recommend Shadowsocks.
You can talk about it, no problem. I would avoid doing so on WeChat however,
because who knows, maybe the regime will decide to use that against you in the
future.

------
lozenge
Don't discuss Chinese politics, laws, policies etc. Don't offer VPN to others.

However, you can acknowledge the firewall existing, e.g. you can say "I can't
access my email, can I send you this photo with Bluetooth/WeChat instead?"

Chinese know the firewall exists, they just mostly don't care (and if they do
care they would never tell you about it)

~~~
hazz99
Is this a politeness thing (aka. most western countries) or a legitimate do-
not-do-this thing?

If it's just politeness, then obv. I won't discuss it most of the time. If its
more intense then that however, I won't discuss it _at all_.

~~~
forkLding
Chinese people either like the firewall or hate it due to their political
views and internet usage but thats about it, to them its a part of life
because they grew up with it. VPN depends, most Chinese people just might not
have a clue what you mean when you say VPN cos they're not that technical. In
terms of Chinese politics, you can discuss depending on who you're talking to,
most kids dont care and others (rural folk) might be full-on red china and
supportive of Xi Jinping cos he's popular in the Trumpian sense.

Just be generally courteous and understanding to people who talk to you and
you will be fine.

------
nakedrobot2
People here are generally a bit over-paranoid. I've been to china many times,
not once did anyone search my phone or laptop. the CCP cannot screw their way
into your hard disk. Just get a VPN and make sure it's working _before_ you
get there, that's really about it. You don't need to get a new computer or
leave that one behind when you leave.

The food in china can be great, but it can be better in various chinatowns in
the world due to higher quality ingredients.

------
catherd
Source: I've been here 4 years, pretty much always in Shenzhen.

1) If you will be using wifi/landline internet (vs. always tethering to your
phone), get a paid VPN that advertises working through the GFW and make sure
it works before you leave. YMMV, but I've tried SSH tunnels, shadowsocks,
lantern, streisand, and probably a few other open/DIY methods. In my
experience none of them work for more than a day or so before they start
getting throttled or completely blocked. If you are constantly moving from one
connection to another it might be different. Your results could also be
different in a different area of the country.

2) Get a working foreign SIM that lists China somewhere in the contract, or
buy a Hong Kong "cross-border" one (not a generic HK one, which will only work
in HK)... they won't be blocked. The Hong Kong one will likely only work in
Shenzhen and Guangzhou, but it's probably cheaper than setting up something
based on a US SIM.

3) Don't worry about your laptop/phone unless you are a journalist or work at
a target for industrial espionage (for example, FAANG)

4) Don't go out of your way to start controversy, but certain people can have
interesting conversations about sensitive topics. Give it a little time and
ease into it if you feel like you need to talk politics. Or if you have
trouble reading people's emotions just skip it. Pretty much anybody with a
graduate degree in a technology field would probably be happy to help you
debug VPN issues if you're already friends with them.

And some not so much security as general survival topics:

5) "Boo yow lah jhaow" = quit putting those fucking Sichuan peppers in every
single thing I order (YMMV in different areas of the country, but here in
Shenzhen even cabbage isn't complete unless it's fried with a generous handful
of peppers and vegetable oil). (This will be completely ignored about 50% of
the time, even if your pronunciation is correct.)

6) Baidu maps is pretty helpful if you want to show a cab driver your
destination. They won't be able to interpret google maps. Older cab drivers
won't be able to see the small characters on your screen, but if you take a
screenshot then zoom in sometimes it works. Or just choose young cab drivers.

7) Wechat. Everybody has it. Even if you never try to pay for anything with
it, you can quickly "friend" someone and even if neither of you are dual
language you can long-press on messages and use the in-app translation to get
a lot done. Just be careful to avoid idioms and slang, use simple sentences,
write out pronouns instead of dropping them, etc.

------
clubm8
They can't hack what you don't bring. Buy a cheap amazon fire tablet or
chromebook for use on wifi / in flight entertainment.

------
Cypher
Hmm alternatively you could take a break from things like Facebook and
instagram and shit like that. Spend that time enjoying the culture :)

------
catkitcourt
Buy a new phone. Use Project Fi. Throw or sell your phone to other people at
US or China after your trip finished.

~~~
rapnie
> Throw or sell your phone [..]

Could you expand? Because it may be compromised? If so, shouldn't sell it then
(at least abroad).

~~~
j16sdiz
The immigration stuff may request you to plug in some usb cable for
“scanning”. This is done in sample base. Depends on how much you trust the
China authority, you may or may not want to reset password/reflash stock
rom/throw away the phone

~~~
schrodinger
Does this happen if you’re just laying over in China as well? Planning on
flying through China to Thailand.

~~~
jason_slack
This has never happened to me at all regardless of how I was passing through.

------
amac
Wechat will be your friend.

------
shanghaiaway
Get a VPN, that's all.

------
amac
Wechat is your friend.

