
Slavery's last stronghold - soundsop
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/03/world/mauritania.slaverys.last.stronghold/index.html
======
tomkin
This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few
layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the
consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind.

While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment
of these issues, _religion_ is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west
makes more progress in what I would consider the eventual realization that
religion has no place in our society. We make the mistake of relenting that
religion is used for moral guidance – when nations with higher atheism are the
ones with the _least_ problems. Tolerance of intolerance is not the moral high
ground.

Toyota made the fatal mistake of making a faulty floor mat which, only caused
a handful of deaths. In that, Toyota fired a fleet of people, re-evaluated
their whole process while battling media and governments for months. We burned
Toyota at the stake for a handful of deaths, but we pay no mind to the
religious implications of our world's enormous head counts all tied to
religion. We let millions of innocents die because, what? It makes us feel all
fuzzy inside to say others benefit from religion? Really? Why doesn't that
rule apply to any other regime or group of followers? And when is it ever a
good thing for many people to forfeit critical thinking in place of a
_template_?

Religion on our side of the world looks rosy. If you look away from the west,
you will see how religion enslaves and dilutes entire populations into
believing _this is what god wants_.

If we want to really solve the world's problems, we must finally stamp out the
tools used to cause pain for millions, and if we look to the roots, the
catalyst is most obvious.

~~~
tomkin
Noticing some of my comments are being down-voted. No problem with opposing
opinion or criticism, but when there is a void of space under my comment where
your rebuttal should be and my comment was down-voted, I have to think that
you _just don't like what I am saying_.

As I see it, if I've said something inflammatory or if I refuse to debate
further beyond talking points, I should accept the fate of the down-vote. I've
responded to and debated my points, without name calling, or other negative
behaviour.

~~~
ars
Your comments are being downvoted because claiming religion is the cause of
slavery and all of the worlds ills is so patently silly that people see no
reason to refute you in words.

You did say the "sword that is wielded" so I guess you have some realization
that it's not the cause, only the effect - but then the rest of your post (and
your other ones) go on to try to claim that religion is the cause.

You also don't seem to realize that the moral code you live by (i.e. the
things you find OK vs not OK) just by living where you do (things like
corporal punishment for adults, debt slavery, age of consent, capital
punishment for economic crimes) is basically arbitrary (different countries
feel differently about these things without any religious thought getting
involved) and to a million mile observer is indistinguishable from a religion.

So calling out religion for giving people a template (as you call it)
demonstrates a lack of understanding of both religion and your own thinking -
I bet you have strong opinions on all those things I mentioned, and you don't
realize your opinion is basically a religious one taught to you as a child.

~~~
tomkin
> Your comments are being downvoted because claiming religion is the cause of
> slavery and all of the worlds ills

OK. Your claim is my argument sweeps wholesale opinion, but then you make a
wholesale opinion of what I meant when I said X. All of the worlds ills? No.
Any specific issue? No. A major contributor? Absolutely. I didn't say that a
religious-free world would be a slavery-free one. I am saying there would be
less slavery overall. Not sure how that could be argued without removing parts
of the story.

> You also don't seem to realize that the moral code you live by...

Another assumption.

> is basically arbitrary (different countries feel differently about these
> things without any religious thought getting involved) and to a million mile
> observer is indistinguishable from a religion.

You're taking ideals like 'capital punishment' and casting them into a
'religious ideal' for the purpose of comparing them directly. Pretty sure debt
slavery, corporal punishment and capital punishment are variable dependant on
the state of what you might consider a low wage, or how wrong it is to trade
stocks with privileged information. We alter these ideals based on new
information. Religion doesn't do this. The book that tells people to behead
unbelievers today _is the same book from hundreds of years ago._ Religion is
unyielding and doesn't evolve. Especially the kind that enslaves people. It's
pretty absurd for you to suggest religion is as much of a variant as corporal
punishment for adults, debt slavery, age of consent, capital punishment -
regardless of distance.

> I bet you have strong opinions on all those things I mentioned,

Assumption.

> and you don't realize your opinion is basically a religious one taught to
> you as a child.

Except if _new information is presented_ that is _different_ than what I
believe, I don't ignore it or stick my head in the sand hoping for the
'armageddon/rapture/other ridiculous event' to come to take me away.
Facilitating ignorance isn't a strong point.

------
H_E_Pennypacker
I don't mean to undermine this powerful report but slavery is alive and
growing across the planet. I think it's important to remember that there are
higher percentages of slaves in the world now than there were back in the days
the Western world considers the slave era. So, Mauritania is far from being
the last stronghold. Al Jazeera and Rageh Omar produced an excellent series on
modern day slavery.

~~~
mtts
Indeed. And most slavery in the world today is extremely complicated (in order
to make it less obvious that it is in fact slavery) and nasty, making the
slavery discussed in this article almost seem benign by comparison: it's out
in plain view, it involves black people and it takes place in a backwards
country far, far away.

Much different from, say, indentured servants in Dubai, Eastern European
prostitutes or illegal immigrants in Europe.

~~~
mattdeboard
Did you actually read the article? "benign" doesn't belong in the same
dictionary as the words that should be used to describe the slavery described
in it.

~~~
mtts
If you look up what gets covered by the relatively innocuous term "Human
trafficking" you'll find it can get much, much worse.

------
josephcooney
That first paragraph was like a punch in the face. Makes me realize how
inconsequential my first-world problems are.

------
edwinnathaniel
A semi-slavery, in a smaller isolated situation, still exists these days in
some of the Arab countries and Malaysia where households will recruit servants
(maid of the house) from a country such as Indonesia and pretty much did the
usual drill:

\- Ask the maid to work inhumanly

\- Giving no vacation or "day out with friends"

\- Held hostage the passport

\- Occasionally raped or violent beating (sometime by using a very hot
iron...)

Given the situation that the maids are just imported "resources", the
law/judge didn't seem to give much thought or care until recently where there
were several of the cases became high-profiled due to international news
covering them.

These maids are typically treated like a slave.

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11795356>

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13860097>

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13601362>

~~~
pbiggar
Please don't refer to this practice as 'semi-slavery'. It is slavery. If you
are held against your will and made work, it is slavery (and is in fact
defined by the UN as such, as I recall).

~~~
edwinnathaniel
The reason why I chose the word "semi" was because of a few things:

1) It's not an official form of slavery on paper as in they got bought in
exchange of money, but more as a "helper of the house" originally.

2) The said maid does have option: cut ties or report to the police, but they
were normally under pressure not to do so (psychologically)

But I won't argue/debate that it is definitely slavery.

------
ars
Note that I read this article:
[http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/17/world/africa/mauritania-
sl...](http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/17/world/africa/mauritania-slave-owner-
abolitionist/index.html)

That part that really gets me is that the slave can't seem to even comprehend
his own existence. Free him, and he'll remain a slave, since it's his mind
that is enslaved, not his body.

I hope that that at least alleviates the suffering that someone with a
different mindset would experience - but it makes it much harder for the
people viewing it from the outside. And it also adds a huge risk of people
making it worse for him physically, in the name of making things better
mentally.

If it were me I would not start by freeing the slaves (they have no skills for
the outside world), I would start by requiring masters to educate them (at
least minimally - basic math, and reading, but not fact based education). The
next step would be requiring a government mandated fixed salary per slave (let
them build up some savings before having to subsist on their own). Only after
that would I actually free them.

~~~
ClHans
... Free him, and he'll remain a slave ...

reminds me a bit about the way we're (mostly) taught life ought to go in the
U.S.. go to school, work hard, get a good job (working for someone else).. get
a car (now you have a car payment..now you need that job!).. start a family,
get a house (now you can't even THINK about quitting that job!).. and if you
come close to paying off any of your indebtedness.. BUY BIGGER!

Are we free in the U.S.? Nominally, yes. Culturally? Culturally, it seems like
we're encouraged to indenture ourselves right from the get-go. The mindset is
probably a lot less common on places like HN, where people are paid
significantly better than median, admire the entrepreneur, and so on, but out
in the rest of the world it is prevalent.

------
jojopotato
Regardless of the content of the article, it was laid out beautifully.

------
jMyles
Seriously? How about the US Prison system?

13th Amendment:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, '''except''' as a punishment for
crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the
United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

------
DanBC
Forced Child Labour remains a problem in Central Africa

([http://www.irinnews.org/Report/94721/AFRICA-High-cost-of-
chi...](http://www.irinnews.org/Report/94721/AFRICA-High-cost-of-child-
trafficking))

Note what they're doing - sometimes mining oil and minerals, or being sex-
slaves for other people who are involved in mining. How many of those minerals
are used in the tech devices we use everyday?

Laws might exist in some countries, but there are suspicions of corruption;
and some legal systems are overworked.

([http://www.irinnews.org/Report/95013/UGANDA-Women-
trafficked...](http://www.irinnews.org/Report/95013/UGANDA-Women-trafficked-
into-sex-work))

Really, IRIN is a remarkable source of thoroughly depressing information about
all this kind of stuff. I could dump thirty URLs and summaries here, but I'll
let you look at IRIN in your own time.

They do also cover good news and positive stories. The photo archives are
remarkable too.

Another good source is the UNHCR.

$2.5billion per year from Human Trafficking:

([http://www.unhcr.org.uk/resources/monthly-
updates/september-...](http://www.unhcr.org.uk/resources/monthly-
updates/september-2010/unhcr-advises-eu-on-measures-to-stop-human-
trafficking.html))

More relevant to the OP:

Anti-Slavery activists in prison while no-one has been convicted for slavery
offences:

([http://www.irinnews.org/Report/91528/MAURITANIA-Activists-
tr...](http://www.irinnews.org/Report/91528/MAURITANIA-Activists-trial-puts-
spotlight-on-anti-slavery-law))

And to finish, a "positive" story about an escaped slave.

([http://www.unhcr.org.uk/news-and-views/news-list/news-
detail...](http://www.unhcr.org.uk/news-and-views/news-list/news-
detail/article/from-captive-to-budding-entrepreneur-with-a-boost-from-
unhcr.html))

------
egiva
Unfortunately Mauritania isn't the last stronghold of slavery. Modern slavery
exists in a number of places - including:

The Ivory Coast - cocoa farming. Child slaves are an exploited part of the
labor force in cocoa production (yes, your chocolate's main ingredient, cocoa,
may come from sources that employ forced labor). Info:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_cocoa_production>

The Unites States: there are an estimated 50,000 people trafficked into/out-of
the US every year. 2.8 million children live in the streets, with over 30%
exposed to the sex trade in some capacity. Source:
<http://www.gchope.org/human-slavery-statistics.html>

------
antoniefountain
As a dedicated anti-trafficking advocate (check out www.stopthetraffik.org to
see some of the work we do) I am used to trolling through pages of ignorant,
xenophobic disheartening callousness after an article like this. I am so
encouraged by the respect and knowledge you're bringing to the debate in this
forum. What a breath of fresh air. Thank you, all the posters below, for
reinforcing my faith in humanity!

------
maxklein
No, don't believe this. The world is a very complex place, and what makes for
a good story is often very different from what reality is.

When American journalists write about the world, they write as if the world is
America. Stories are broken down into us vs them, people become black and
white, some people are assigned the label 'good' and some the label 'bad'.
Everything gets americanised, even the american obsession with skin colour or
racial differences works itself into every conflict that is reported on.

Whatever the real story in mauritania is, it's made of centuries and centuries
of history, a land caught between the arabs and the africans, a culture that
has lasted hundreds of year.

This cannot be captured in a short article on CNN that reduces it all to the
archetypal american "black people enslaved by people who are not us". After
reading this article, you still know nothing about Mauritania. You have no
understand of the complexities of their society. All you have is this single
story, this opinion piece by a single author.

Your knowledge is second hand and it's second rate. You do yourself,
Mauritania and history a great disservice if you read the article and believe
it. A single story should only ever be something that invites you to discover
the real history of a place and people
([http://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_adichie_the_danger_of_a_...](http://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_adichie_the_danger_of_a_single_story.html))

When you read an article like this about Mauritania, don't read it. Realise
that it's like overhearing a conversation between two strangers. You lack
context, you lack understanding.

That's why you should not believe this story. It's a single story about a
place you know nothing about.

~~~
TheShihan
I see you repeating again and again and not providing any background
information and facts. What's exactly your problem with the article. Have you
found any errors or biased stuff? If so, please highlight it for us.

I get the strange feeling that you have a problem with the article because it
shows that not only white people are able to enslave other human beings. Maybe
you should have a look at the history of slavery in islam.

~~~
maxklein
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. If you read my comment, you'll see
I'm not talking about the content of the article or saying slavery does not
exist.

It's difficult to tell people "think before you decide" when the people
instantly assume that I am saying something that is attacking them and
immediately start aggressively defending their opinion.

------
Maro

      - Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. -
    
      Abdel read the line again and again.
    
      “I started to ask myself if lies were coming out of
      this book,” he told us, “or if they were rather
      coming out of my very own culture.”
    

I just read V for Vendetta, the original comic book over the weekend:

    
    
      We are told to remember the idea, not the man,
      because a man can fail. He can be caught, he can be
      killed and forgotten, but 400 years later, an idea can
      still change the world.
    

and

    
    
      Beneath this mask there is more than flesh.
      Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy.
      And ideas are bulletproof.

------
sofifonfek
An interesting view of slavery in Mauritania, it's important to raise
awareness about slavery which has a natural tendency to fly under the radar.

But the sensationalist title is misleading, old style slavery is much more
prevalent than this article let the reader believe, obvious cases are dubai
and sex slaves, but there are more all across the world.

And there is the new style of slavery,the kind where people are free to get
minimum wage to barely pay for food and shelter or maintaining themselves in
debt, the kind where freedom is about choosing between brands or channels,
choosing between a limited panel of wanna be leaders all funded by the same
pocket.

~~~
lambersley
You throw dirt in the faces of those who have and continue to suffer through
slavery by comparing it to minimum-wage workers. Slavery and Poverty and very
distinct and one certainly more evil than the other.

------
Synaesthesia
Thanks for this, before I read the article I thought it would be about Dubai -
where there are hundreds of thousands of wage slaves.

~~~
ars
No, the people in Duabi are not wage slaves, they are indentured servants.

People really need to stop using the term wage slave. Combining those two
words causes a contradiction that is rarely accurate.

------
Porter_423
“I only had my tears to console me,” how pathetic is this?Actually slavery has
become a serious problem for the Africa.It should be just removed from Africa
at any cost.

~~~
ars
> at any cost

At any cost? Are you sure? What if the cost is the life of all the slaves? Do
you know what happens to people with no life skills at all that are suddenly
thrown into the world to take care of themself?

They should be helped, but not at any cost.

------
cmaxwell
I thought it was going to be an article about mechanical turk.

------
thomasdavis
Slavery exist everywhere, we just call it 'life' or '9-5'

~~~
InclinedPlane
That is not slavery. Slavery is the absolute absence of choice and
opportunity.

So-called "wage slavery" is the very poster child of "first world problems".

Oh golly gosh it sucks so much to be tied to a job you hate, doesn't it? But
in the vast majority of cases that lack of perceived freedom is not an actual
lack of freedom but due to choices made. Often it's due to failure to budget
and save properly, failure to acquire better job skills, etc.

Get some roommates, live in the cheapest part of town, stop paying money for
cable, the internet, phones, movies, restaurants, etc. You'll start saving
money pretty damned quick. Then use that savings to put yourself through a
trade school, or just find a different line of work where you can learn on the
job and move up.

The world isn't going to hand you an out if you just sit on your ass and do
the same thing over and over, you've got to make your own exit.

~~~
sofifonfek
So according to your post, having more money = freedom ? Does it not look like
what a slave to money would say to deny slavery ? Or as stated in the article:
Various religions in many countries have been used to justify the continuation
of slavery. "They make people believe that going to paradise depends on their
submission,"

That's said, what you stated is false,it's a known fact that the abolition of
old style slavery was to replace it with a new from of slavery, namely minimum
wage slavery, according to a then emerging economic context. Something along
these lines: freed slaves have to find money to buy food and shelter and are
offered minimum wage for jobs doing what they used to do when they were slave.

~~~
InclinedPlane
You missed the point entirely. Slavery is about an absence of freedom. So-
called "wage slavery" posits that an equivalent lack of freedom exists with
people who are "bound" to their job.

But that is bullshit. Wage slavery is bunk. People aren't tied to jobs they
hate because they have no choices, they are tied precisely because of the
choices they've made.

Choices to buy smartphones, xboxes, big screen tvs, cable and internet
service, cars. Choices to eat pre-made food, take-out, or restaurant food
instead of cheaper fare like beans and rice. Choices to live alone in
expensive housing instead of living with roommates in a cheap neighborhood.
Choices to avoid keeping to a budget, avoid saving, avoid putting in the
elbow-grease to acquire more skills.

That's about money but it's also about choice. When you have savings, when you
live well within your means, when you build up your skillset then the whole
goddamn world opens up for you. You have your choice of numerous jobs and even
different careers. And especially you find that you are able to support
yourself with part-time work. Is that slavery? No, that's freedom. And it's
within the grasp of virtually anyone who works a job for a "wage". No it isn't
easy, it takes sacrifices. But don't imagine that your slave master is your
boss, your slave master is yourself, only you have put yourself in a box
financially, mentally, and job skills wise that you feel you are trapped in.

------
thesauce25
Wow, I wish some of the KONY 2012 hype had spilled over to help these poor
people.

