
Stop Lying About Our Sons - Reedx
https://medium.com/@egsanzi/stop-lying-about-our-sons-e039bdc661d2
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mech1234
One thing I've been thinking a lot about lately is the increasing lack of
productive physical activity available to men in a lot of settings. Idleness
and sedentary lifestyles are increasing in prevalence. Manual labor and sports
are both on the decline. Physical activities are good for the body and soul,
and it's sad to see them disappearing.

I think catharsis is important for men in particular, and idleness is
particularly destructive for men. If there aren't engaging activities
available for men, they will make something up to stay busy, often in
destructive patterns.

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throwaway12757
I'm not sure, but I might be able to shed some light on this growing up in a
"boys" world and then coming out as trans and transitioning to female.

I have also spent 6 years in the Navy (on submarines in an all male
environment) before I transitioned.

Toxic masculinity is a real thing, the amount of men don't cry, men don't show
emotion, and the large amount of "locker room" talk involving treating women
as sex objects was incredibility high.

I've been in these male spaces, not saying anything, but watching and I can
truly tell you, it's completely disgusting.

In the end, I'm actually sad that most men don't feel like they can talk about
their vulnerabilities and emotions. It's a hard world to live in like that.

~~~
forgottenpass
>the amount of men don't cry, men don't show emotion

>I'm actually sad that most men don't feel like they can talk about their
vulnerabilities and emotions.

Do they not talk about it, or have they not talked about it _to you_?

I used to believe the narrative that men don't talk about emotional issues,
assuming my lifetime of experiences talking to other men about our
perspectives, fears, limitations and feelings was some sort of aberration. It
finally fell apart when I made some friends in the trades. If _they_ didn't
even follow the mold, and were willing to confide in me whenever something was
on their mind, then why is this assumed to be a widely-pervasive male trait?

As far as I can tell, men are more than willing to talk about personal topics
they keep guarded. It just has to be with someone that they care to have a
real conversation with.

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olliej
This article seems to be interpreting any attack on "toxic" masculinity as an
assault on masculinity in general.

Things we consider "toxic masculinity" are (for example)

* Sexism and misogyny - that is women are less than or inferior to men, and should be focused on serving them.

* Violence is a reasonable response to being upset

* Men who aren't sufficiently "masculine" (often defined in terms of the above), are also lesser

* Women who aren't sufficiently "feminine" need to be put in their place (understand who's in charge, and who they should serve)

Are there a few idiots who go beyond that? yes. Just like there are idiots who
go bizarrely far on any other topic.

But attacking toxic masculinity is not attacking masculinity. It's not
attacking men and boys.

If you feel attacks on toxic masculinity are attacks on you
fathers/husbands/sons maybe there should be some thought about what about
their behavior overlaps the above, and whether you think that's ok?

~~~
philwelch
You’re not fooling anyone.

~~~
blotter_paper
Your comment seems to be assuming bad faith. This is not helpful for a
discussion, nor does it add anything to it.

My own problem with GP is that they claim "attacking toxic masculinity is not
attacking masculinity", but I don't think the people using this term would
defend similar language if the genders were reversed. If we called
stereotypically bad feminine traits "toxic femininity" it would be called out
as sexist. Indeed, it is[0]. I can't imagine most racial descriptors would
fair much better. "The limits of my language are the limits of my world," and
we shouldn't be surprised when attaching a descriptor of a subset of humanity
to a negative term sparks backlash. It seems like we face this general problem
where it's shitty to use group descriptors for negative behavior, but
sometimes groups of people are disproportionately responsible for some subset
of negative behavior, and we've traditionally been more willing to attach
negative terminology to oppressed groups, but now some of us are
simultaneously realising that was a shitty practice _and_ deciding to attach
negative descriptors to the oppressive groups instead... which is kind of
understandable, since those groups have been oppressive, but we're still
dealing in broad group identities that encompass some individuals who have
behaved less oppressively than other individuals who fall into less oppressive
group identities, and using group identities as a linguistic weapon in this
way is sort of obviously going to engender mistrust and negative reactions.
So, maybe it would be more helpful for the dialogue if we found linguistic
constructs that didn't pair "man-" or "male-" with some harmful follow-up. If
we find ourselves in a situation where it is useful to discuss the
intersection of group identity and negative behavior, it might be nice to slow
down and say exactly what we mean rather than calling it "toxic masculinity"
and then being surprised when this is taken as an attack on men.

That said, I do agree that GP's subpoints are actual issues which we should
address. I just have serious reservations about this language.

[0]:
[https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Toxic_femininity](https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Toxic_femininity)

~~~
philwelch
The thing is, it’s not a good faith instance of accidentally misleading
terminology, and the sheer fact that these people condemn the phrase “toxic
femininity” is an illustration of that fact. I would characterize it as an
instance of motte-and-bailey rhetoric. It’s not quite a dog whistle because
the whole point is that it’s pretty obvious what “toxic masculinity” _really_
means, even if they are reluctant to openly admit it.

~~~
blotter_paper
Language, and communication in general, is hard. I have used terminology in
good faith that later iterations of myself have found issue with, and I expect
that later-still iterations of myself will find issues with my current
language.

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jacinabox
Uh oh social justice starting to get away from you? I can see that,

