
Purism and KDE to Work Together on World's First Truly Free Smartphone - foob
https://www.kde.org/announcements/kde-purism-librem5.php
======
fabrice_d
I applaud and support the HW side of this, this is absolutely needed and could
be a game changer. Keep also in mind this is a v1.

However I have reservations on the software choice. Mobile OSes live and die
depending on the app ecosystem that is available. If you want lots of people
to use your system, your need the popular apps to be on board. That will be
hard with a KDE or Gnome based UI, and a second class citizen web support. The
developer community has millions of iOS, Android and Web devs, but likely only
thousands of Gnome/KDE ones. Getting top-notch PWA integration could ease that
but that's unlikely to be a high priority.

That being said, I feel they are happy with not being mainstream and that's
fine too. Just different expectations.

~~~
zlatan_todoric
In first wave we plan to have couple of working apps such as dialer, mail,
browser, audio/video player but gradually community will hop on and
port/create apps for it.

Sure, we start against millions of apps in other ecosystem but on average
people don't use more than 20 apps often and I for one dislike that every
website out there has created their own iOS/Android app when I can simply use
one app for all them - browser.

Also never underestimate the power of GNU/Linux community - it has by far most
of hackers on it and it is doing their thing for decades already without
slowing down at any single point.

Also, we will try to help and support any community that will work on getting
their OS/app on Librem 5. It would be phone produced by Purism and supported
by us, but it would truly be one from people for people. :)

~~~
s73ver_
"Sure, we start against millions of apps in other ecosystem but on average
people don't use more than 20 apps often and I for one dislike that every
website out there has created their own iOS/Android app when I can simply use
one app for all them - browser."

And yet, Windows Phone took that same philosophy, and failed miserably. It's
not so much that people only use a handful of apps, but they want to know that
they'll be able to use the next big apps that come out. They want to know
that, when the next big social app or game comes out, they'll be able to use
it. That wasn't the case with Windows Phone, which had huge struggles just
getting the main apps that people wanted then on their system.

And you may wish to use the browser for all that stuff, but most people don't.
They like apps.

"Also never underestimate the power of GNU/Linux community - it has by far
most of hackers on it and it is doing their thing for decades already without
slowing down at any single point."

And yet, for end user, consumer software, they really haven't delivered. I
feel you're overestimating that group's capabilities here.

~~~
zlatan_todoric
We are not the same ecosystem as Windows Phone and we will use different tech
than they did - and even if we fail (which I don't think at all), it is part
of life, work.

And for the end user - I don't think community failed, it just didn't have the
multibillion dollar marketing machine behind it and also GNU/Linux commercial
activities went into server and rarely into end user app, we plan to change
this.

~~~
s73ver_
"We are not the same ecosystem as Windows Phone and we will use different tech
than they did"

I never said you did. You still face the same issues. It's not like an
ecosystem succeeds or fails because it chooses a certain language.

"and even if we fail (which I don't think at all), it is part of life, work."

That really does not inspire confidence in the project.

"And for the end user - I don't think community failed, it just didn't have
the multibillion dollar marketing machine behind it and also GNU/Linux
commercial activities went into server and rarely into end user app, we plan
to change this."

I wasn't talking about marketing. I was talking about user-centric design, and
usability of the software. And GNU/Linux stuff has largely lagged behind
other, product based offerings in these regards.

~~~
zlatan_todoric
Sorry, but obviously not even Microsoft with its stash of money can't
guarantee something will be success story, so we can't either.

We are perfectly capable to make this device, we can't guarantee it will be
something millions will end up buying.

And the ecosystem is important for easy of creation or porting stuff (not just
code-wise, but how you approach to such things) and also as I mentioned here -
we also plan to work on utilizing Android support via anbox or shashlik which
could potentially remove that gap (also people need to realize that Google is
developing only handful of apps, those millions come from third-party devs).

------
caffed
As someone who tried to fund the Ubuntu Edge, I don't see this getting fully
funded.

[https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-
edge#/](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge#/)

It probably wasn't 100% FOSS (blobs?, baseband?, ...), but that was a much
more polished product soft+hardware, especially for touch based usage.

That is not to say that I don't want it to get funded, rather the barriers to
entry are high.

~~~
Nelkins
On the other hand, Ubuntu Edge tried to raise $32 million. These folks are
trying to raise $1.5 million. Seems like a much more reasonable goal.

~~~
s73ver_
Reasonable in that it's easier to raise, but is it reasonable in that it's
enough to do what they want to do?

------
mixedbit
I think the initial goal of Purism should be to make a working device with
WiFi and GSM drivers and a minimal software layer on top. Even a command line
tools for things like making a call, or sending an SMS would be enough for the
initial release. Let then a small group of enthusiastic early adopters
experiment with different UIs on top. It is not possible for a small
organization to release a product that will compete with iOS or Android from
the start. I think Firefox OS and Ubuntu Phone could have failed because they
had too ambitious initial goals and targeted too wide group with they early
devices.

------
Nelkins
Librem 5 funding page, for those looking for it:
[https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/](https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/)

------
alasdair_
I paid for a Purism "Libre 13" laptop with a supposed shipping date that was
roughly a month away from the order date. Every month I was told "another
month!" until after six months I finally gave up and asked for a refund.

They look like a great company, and hopefully they will fix their supply
issues soon but I'd not recommend them until they manage to get better at
predicting shipping dates.

~~~
kungito
Can you really expect a correct shipping date from someone who has just
started doing it? They probably don't have established protocols and
procedures for most of the process. Indie funding is mostly about doing
something completely new with whatever money you can get and hoping for the
best. I'm not saying it's ok to mess everything up but I do think you should
adjust your expectations accordingly.

------
oldgun
Really really love to see this going somewhere, but what advantage does PureOS
have after UbuntuTouch, FirefoxOS, SailfishOS, TizenOS or even Windows Phone
OS backed by a tech juggernaut failed to make an impact?

~~~
Hjugo
SailfishOS isn't dead yet. They are making slow, but steady progress.

~~~
Apocryphon
It seems that unlike Firefox or Ubuntu's mobile efforts, they are self-aware
of their niche status and are focused on expanding with that instead of aiming
for mass-market adoption.

------
iBelieve
Does this mean they won't be using GNOME, or will this simply be another user
interface option? The Purism fundraiser has mockups of a GNOME interface, and
there was a recent [1] mailing list thread about starting a GNOME Mobile
effort. I'm a GNOME user on my laptop, mainly because the design feels more
polished than Plasma, so I would have liked to see a mobile initiative for
GNOME.

[1] [https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-
list/2017-Sept...](https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-
list/2017-September/msg00011.html)

~~~
foob
It's my understanding that PureOS is currently Gnome based and that they're
heavily leaning towards that remaining the default, but that they haven't made
a final decision yet. It does sound like users will have the option to install
either though.

~~~
zlatan_todoric
We certainly will invest heavily into one DE (upon successful campaign that
decision will be made) but we will also work with all interested parties and
devote some resources to get other up (it is the same in case someone is
trying to bring up other OS or DE, we will try to help such effort as much as
we can). The point is to give to community working Free phone and finally
disrupt the status quo.

~~~
carussell
How about you give the community a working free phone by shipping a phone that
runs vanilla AOSP and try evolving it into what you think you want it to be?
At least that way, when Linux-desktop-on-the-phone proves itself (again) to be
an even worse failure than Linux-on-the-desktop, the world will still be left
with a free phone, instead of a free phone that strangled by its associated
with a doomed software strategy.

~~~
zlatan_todoric
On the phone we plan to produce, you will be able to install Android as matter
of fact - it is just that we will not do it by our default as we want a pure
Linux stack that is going to roll in updates normally as desktop is and not
being attached to older kernels and heavy forks of ecosystem. Even for scale
of Google it is not feasible to do it that way so they are now doing their own
research and development (Fuchsia OS or something like that).

------
big_youth
What is HN's opinion on Purism laptops? I'm looking for a new linux machine
but I'm unfamiliar with Purism.

Currently leaning toward a Lenovo X1 Carbon or 470s, possibly a system 76.

~~~
zlatan_todoric
Purism CTO here. I will not comment other but I can say for ours - you get it
preinstalled with coreboot (which will also get updates as it progresses), all
works out of the box with Free software (we preinstall on it PureOS but you
can install any distro out there). Touchpad was an issue in past but we
changed now and have quite a good touchpad that just works. The case is
anodized aluminum. All Purism Librems have hardware kill switches - which
means you can disable physically mic/camera and wifi/bt. Backlit keyboard is
now on all models if that is something you like. Also with every buy you
support our ongoing development such as neutralizing entirely ME, reverse
engineering missing bits, creating our own firmware, developing PureOS as well
as having better and better product (also if suddenly there would be thousands
and thousands of orders, it would put price down).

P.S. because there is no Free software for Bluetooth (for WiFi/BT module) we
have it disabled by default which means you would not be hit by latest
Bluetooth exploit :D

------
brunoqc
Are Linux applications going to use a lot of battery? Do they have wakelocks
or something similar?

~~~
curt15
This. Shorter battery life than in Windows is a frequent complaint about Linux
on laptops, and for handheld computers battery life really needs to be a top
priority.

~~~
akerro
RedHat is working on it, you can signup to be a tester:

[https://hansdegoede.livejournal.com/18412.html](https://hansdegoede.livejournal.com/18412.html)

------
chc4
I want to love Plasma Mobile. But development on it has always looked
extremely dead every time I've checked on it since it has came out, and there
are next to no phones that it's been ported to. I've never even seen someone
mention using it online, unlike Ubuntu Touch or FirefoxOS or Sailfish (when
they were all alive).

Honestly, it's felt like it's been thrown by the wayside ever since it came
out, and that's not encouraging to the thought of running it on a phone that
you'd use as a daily driver.

~~~
emilsedgh
Ubuntu Touch was sponsored by Canonical and Firefox OS was backed by Mozilla.

Plasma is truly a community effort. So of course you haven't heard about it
much.

I think at any given time there are only a handful of paid developers employed
by a few small and big companies working on it.

That means there's not much resources and almost no paid marketing. It's also
not fashionable anymore.

Ubuntu Touch and FirefoxOS and a bunch of other projects got cancelled because
the parent companies didn't expect a proper ROI.

Plasma Mobile has been going slow but steady. There's no company to pull off
the resources.

Also, the community if determined to provide a Free As In Freedom experience
on desktop. Hopefully they can do it on phones as well. Their agenda is only
software freedom and privacy.

Disclaimer: Used to be a KDE contributor, in no way associated with Plasma
Mobile.

~~~
carussell
> Also, the community if determined to provide a Free As In Freedom experience
> on desktop. Hopefully they can do it on phones as well. Their agenda is only
> software freedom and privacy.

This is contrary to the things that KDE-associated projects have traditionally
valued. Software freedom has always been associated with GNU and GTK/Gnome.
The philosophy behind Qt/KDE has always been that things can be considered
_free enough_. The KDE community's willingness to tolerate a dubious licensing
situation for Qt is the only reason that Gnome even exists.

~~~
emilsedgh
That's not true.

KDE originally started using Qt which was non free.

Once the project took off and started to matter, 2 projects started to fix the
non-free-Qt issue.

One was Gnome.

The other one was KDE's attempt to write a free Qt clone.

But soon TrollTech approached KDE and agreed to open source Qt.

There the KDE Free Qt Foundation was created.

[https://www.kde.org/community/whatiskde/kdefreeqtfoundation....](https://www.kde.org/community/whatiskde/kdefreeqtfoundation.php)

I can assure you that Software Freedom is on top of KDE's priorities.

KDE has refused to even use anything non-free even in its infrastructure.

~~~
carussell
I don't see how you can point to the years where Qt used a bad license,
without seeing that the only statement that it proves is not true is the one
where you wrote "that's not true". (And there were plenty of people arguing at
that time that the Qt license was no big deal and the free desktop community
should just move on to more productive things.)

I know what Qt's licensing situation is now. But it being under a free license
today doesn't mean that software freedom is one of two things that the KDE
community cares about above all else. If I meet a man today and he's wearing a
blue shirt, that doesn't mean it's true that you can infer his personal moral
code means he will only wear blue shirts. (In fact, it can still be untrue
even if he personally tells you that this is his code.)

~~~
emilsedgh
KDE is 21 years old. It's been 19 years since Qt has been FOSS.

And within those 2 years, there was an attempt to rewrite Qt to be FOSS.

Also KDE Community has evolved during the past two decades.

~~~
carussell
You're not really addressing things I've written.

~~~
prophesi
If a guy has been wearing blue shirts for 19 years straight, it's probably a
safe bet that he'll be wearing blue shirts for the years to come.

~~~
carussell
Three things:

\- My goal isn't to argue with someone who's just looking to have an argument
with me.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15250932](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15250932)

\- Strain-the-metaphor is a terrible way to find clarity about anything, and a
terribly unfun game to play along the way.

\- Once again: this doesn't really address the things I've written.

~~~
prophesi
Sorry, I honestly didn't know you were the same person.

I'll rephrase it: If a project has been using FOSS for 19 years straight, it's
probably a safe bet that they'll be using FOSS for the years to come. It's
time to accept that they're about freedom, and forgive them for their mishap
from two decades ago.

------
bmn__
Any idea how to switch the mouse-centric desktop in KDE 5.36 to the
mobile/touch variant? I want to experiment a bit.

IIRC in an earlier version that was a simple matter of installing an
additional package and switching a quite obvious setting in the control panel,
but now I can't find it anymore…

~~~
akerro
Plasma5 has a mobile variant that works on phones, I used it for a few days
and it was quite alright for such young project. No crashes and not laggy at
all, but it lacks applications that I use daily and games.

[https://plasma-mobile.org/](https://plasma-mobile.org/)

~~~
bmn__
Now that you reminded me of the name, I could search around. (Package names
were plasma-mobile-* and plasma-active-*.) KDE/Plasma Active was packaged last
in 2014 for major distros, but no release since then. The old packages are not
installable any more. Feels quite dead from the end-user perspective.

Version 6 is not packaged anywhere AFAICT.

------
coldtea
A second place Desktop OS in popularity (in desktop Linux, which itself holds
just 1% or so of desktop OS share) and a niche PC manufacturer?

Doesn't bode very well from a commercial perspective. Would even most KDE
project contributors switch to one?

~~~
petecox
IIRC, KDE 3.x made a lot of hard-coded assumptions about running on a desktop.
Plasma was a re-write to be independent of the display and using Qt-Quick that
Nokia had crafted for Symbian/Meego.

But it's an egg and chicken problem. With no readily available KDE mobile
hardware, developers won't port their desktop software to a 5 inch touch
device.

But in the past few weeks we've seen the Plasma team reach out to develop
halium (common hardware base for sailfish and Ubuntu touch etc), assist with
packaging for postmarketOS and this purism phone. So that's 3 backends make
Plasma run on.

~~~
coldtea
I used to run KDE as my dev desktop, back around 2000-2003, even using
Konqueror (khtml, quite primitive yet) as my main browser (of course the web
was mostly non-dynamic, non-SPA back then).

Anyway, I remember some attempts back them of having KDE running on some
feature phones/ early smartphone platform, before even Nokia was involved
IIRC.

------
reificator
Am I missing something? Why does FirefoxOS, for instance, not count as a
"truly free smartphone"? Were there blob drivers or something? Or are we just
forgetting them for the sake of the headline?

~~~
jcelerier
> Were there blob drivers or something?

yes

------
fghtr
Will it be more free than [https://neo900.org](https://neo900.org)?

------
whalesalad
Hate to be that guy but this is certainly going to be a flop.

~~~
deltaprotocol
So you hate to be that guy but you still feel like coming here to state your
absolutely empty point of view without even a hint of an argument? This isn't
the place for hate speech or for pouring your negativism. This is a beautiful
project by beautiful people dedicated to an open mobile solution which the
world dramatically needs. Let's give them strength and share only our best
constructive criticism.

~~~
whalesalad
Hate speech? Really?

I didn't say anything at all hateful. I'm simply suggesting that this will not
succeed. I'll dig in.

There is a good reason that a lot of these libre/free/open tools do not
succeed. It's simple: the value that they provide does not outweigh their
cost. The juice is not worth the squeeze.

Let's observe the quick facts:

    
    
      Does not run Google Android
      Does not run Apple iOS
    

This is a double edged sword. For the tin-hat folks, this is great. For
everyone else, how am I going to get applications for this platform, without
building them myself?

    
    
      Runs PureOS by default, can run most GNU+Linux distributions
    

Great for folks who want Linux on their cell phone. I love Linux, but I am
pretty sure that marketshare is something like 3.4% right now.

    
    
      World’s first ever IP-native mobile handset
    

What does this do for me? What value does this provide? It's just a technical
bullet point with no relevance whatsoever.

    
    
      End-to-end decentralized communications via Matrix
    

Again, what is this? This is a bullet point devoid of meaning or value. Is
this a new communication platform/protocol that I am going to need to get my
friends and family to use? What if they use iPhone and Android?

    
    
      5″ screen
    

Finally, something interesting.

    
    
      Security focused by design
    

Would prefer seeing how this differs from the current product landscape. As
far as I can tell, the iPhone is security focused. You can't unlock it without
my fingerprint. Applications are sandboxed. I don't think my iPhone was
designed without security in mind.

    
    
      Privacy protection by default
    

Here is another meaningless line. What does this mean? What value does this
give me?

    
    
      Works with 2G/3G/4G, GSM, UMTS, and LTE networks
    

Okay, here is the second meaningful feature.

    
    
      CPU separate from Baseband
    

I can imagine that this is helpful for security: but why? What value does this
give me?

    
    
      Hardware Kill Switches for Camera, Microphone, WiFi/Bluetooth, and Baseband
    

This is another interesting feature.

So after looking through this entire Librem 5 page I have found two or three
meaningful features. Two of them are arguably table stakes, the 5" screen and
the supported networks.

I'm sorry but the entire page exhibits a sense of extremist tin-hat
individuals living in an alternate reality from the rest of us. That is why I
feel as though this will be a flop.

~~~
petecox
> Great for folks who want Linux on their cell phone

For me, peak smartphone was some time ago. I mainly want is a pocket computer
with a web browser than makes calls. Connection a MHL-OTG USB hub makes it a
proper computer running KDE.

Now sure there's an "app gap" but Firefox OS would have had potential if
companies would reskin their desktop web sites instead of everything needing a
native app just because everyone else does - very few apps I use on a weekly
basis take advantage of 'native' features that couldn't be written in HTML5.

> World’s first ever IP-native mobile handset One list of contacts and calling
> via VOIP or GSM transparently to anyone in the world, without needing a
> separate app - which mightn't mean anything if you're bound to skype,
> facetime, hangouts etc.

------
gsich
Baseband too?

