
Alarm as China eases 25-year ban on rhino and tiger parts - happy-go-lucky
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46027702
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calgoo
Well, we can see how well the Japanese are doing with their "scientific
research" whale killing, which is really bad as they are using it as a excuse
to continue the practice. Similar loopholes will be found here, for example:
if i capture a rhino and send it to a farm for 1 week, is it now a animal that
we can do "research" on? What about 1 month?

~~~
qubax
> Well, we can see how well the Japanese are doing with their "scientific
> research" whale killing, which is really bad as they are using it as a
> excuse to continue the practice.

The whales they research aren't endangered. Also, other nations and people
hunt whales.

> Similar loopholes will be found here, for example: if i capture a rhino and
> send it to a farm for 1 week, is it now a animal that we can do "research"
> on? What about 1 month?

That's a possibility. But more likely, it'll create more tiger/rhino "farms".
Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is debatable just like trophy
hunting.

Also, the threat to tigers and rhinos aren't poachers. It's loss of habitat
due to human population growth. Where humans live in numbers, it's hard to
have tigers and rhinos around because they can easily kill humans. It's why
most tigers and rhinos in the world today are in zoos or wildlife enclosures.

~~~
rdl
Is the problem with whaling that whales are endangered, or that they're "too
intelligent"? If the latter, is there a similar issue with hunting non-human
primates?

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jschwartzi
The problem with whaling it's that whales are an important component of the
ocean ecosystem, and killing most of the whales will have dire consequences.
Cows and chickens are not part of the natural world and killing then to eat
them has no effect other than ending an animal's life.

It's not about endangerment, it's about recognizing that the earth is a
fragile system that we're pushing closer to the edge with every extinction. We
have a responsibility to our descendants to take care of their planet for them
until they can arrive.

~~~
tynpeddler
>It's not about endangerment, it's about recognizing that the earth is a
fragile system that we're pushing closer to the edge with every extinction. We
have a responsibility to our descendants to take care of their planet for them
until they can arrive.

Except this literally doesn't apply to Japan. The whales Japan is hunting are
not endangered, and there is no proposed mechanism whereby Japan's whale
hunting causes ecological harm. The IWC's own scientists recommended the whale
hunting moratorium be removed around 1994.

~~~
rdl
If people think whales shouldn't be killed for
moral/aesthetic/religious/whatever reasons, and can convince everyone else to
agree (presumably at the level of nation states), that's fine even if they're
not all endangered or critical to the ecosystem. I just want people to be
honest about why they don't want it.

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tw04
We've got a president trying to actively dismantle the EPA and remove the
protections on endangered species. We were the primary pressure being applied
to China - why would they stop now?

I would imagine some in the upper echelons of their government know that it's
all completely bogus, but if it keeps the people happy, I doubt they care.

~~~
mikeash
Your suspicion seems grounded in fact. Traditional Chinese medicine was pushed
by Mao because there weren’t enough real doctors. He didn’t even believe in
it, and I imagine the current leaders don’t either.

~~~
notyourday
And now it and other "natural" cures are being pushed by supposedly educated
doctors.

My wife showed up from PT with the signs of cupping. If you think that's bad,
let me terrify you further: _insurance company paid for it_

~~~
joshstrange
Your comment confused me a little bit as it sounded like it was done without
her knowing but I would think you would notice that. "Cupping", for those like
me who had never heard of it, involves putting devices on your body (There are
different sizes, shapes, and materials) that "suck" up some of your skin into
the vessel. It's supposed to be good for you but stinks to high heaven of BS
(and the lack of any evidence to prove it helps confirms that).

You can google for the images (it's semi-NSFW).

~~~
notyourday
The concept that in NYC a licensed physical therapist working out of a medical
office can peddle this shit as a medical procedure and bill it under health
insurance is ridiculous.

~~~
mikeash
I’m not surprised. Look at how widespread chiropractors (and chiropractic
coverage under insurance) are, for example.

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vertline3
Chinese Panda conservation is a kind of 'soft power'. Being a place with
Tigers and Rhinos is large bragging rights that I think they would be Keen to
hold. Chinese Medicine can be changed to exclude endangered animals if Chinese
Govt are able to handpick religious leaders.

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ajmurmann
Tragedy of the commons problems like environmental issues should really be the
main reason for international conflict. It's depressing that it's not.

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SteveGoob
I have very mixed feelings about this. Let me explain:

This move from China is definitely going to bring more incentive for illegal
poaching. It's just simple economics: by officially bringing a market back,
profits to be made are much greater, and people will find any way to get in on
the action.

If, however, if we provide more _legal_ means for people to benefit from the
tiger and rhino markets, we could provide enough economic incentive for people
to be invested in their survival. The big deal here would be the opportunity
for private ownership (rhino and tiger 'farms' basically). People will
viciously protect what's theirs from poachers and ensure it's continued
existence, especially if there is money to be made by doing so.

If people are allowed to privately own, breed, and sell their tigers and
rhinos, I think China's move could actually _facilitate recovery_ for both
species.

But is that what China's planning to do? I doubt it given their track record
and political philosophies, which means this is going to only make the
extinction of tigers and rhino's a bigger problem.

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nepotism2018
Surely China is looking to breed these animals locally rather than chase them
around the world? like [https://phasa.co.za/hunting-
services/](https://phasa.co.za/hunting-services/)

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duxup
I thought a lot of traditional Chinese culture got run over by the cultural
revolution, but this stuff never did. I wonder why.

~~~
bgee
> I thought a lot of traditional Chinese culture got run over by the cultural
> revolution

Asking as a Chinese myself, can you point to some examples?

edit: improve formatting

~~~
duxup
I don't really know how to address questions when it comes to the answer of
"that's just basic history". Maybe history is wrong but I'm always wary of
being expected to make the case that it isn't...

~~~
bgee
What I meant was maybe you can help me by pointing out something in history
that was very prosperous before Cultural Revolution but died right after (if I
understand "run over" correctly).

~~~
duxup
"pointing out something in history that was very prosperous before Cultural
Revolution but died right after" I don't understand what you're trying to say
there.

You can google up all sorts of things if you like. I've found it's not worth
my time to post basic history, particularly with regards to China on hacker
news. Too many accounts that amount to "nuh, uh prove it!" and have nothing
else to say.

~~~
bgee
I'm not defending Cultural Revolution here (no body can). However, Googling
"lost tradition Cultural Revolution" didn't give me much, I found one NY Times
article [0] but it doesn't talk much on the traditions that got lost in this
period.

The wikipedia page on Cultural Revolution in both English and Chinese didn't
mention any tradition being lost either.

> Too many accounts that amount to "nuh, uh prove it!" and have nothing else
> to say.

The burden of proving what you said is true should not be on me. You said
something bizarre and got challenged.

[0]: [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/world/asia/china-
cultural...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/world/asia/china-cultural-
revolution-explainer.html)

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pastor_elm
China recently re-banned Ivory after too much backlash. Makes sense they would
open up a new market to placate the population that believes in this crap.
Looks like Yao Ming has to come out of retirement again.

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solveq
The ultra solution is to inject to these animals something harm to human, but
no harm to themselves. Which can prevent people hunting them for money.

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sbussard
Noooooo!! This is horrible news

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throwaway5752
If you look at global warming, the global rise of fascism, and little things
like this it's kind of difficult to avoid thinking someone is trying to
orchestrate something very bad for the majority of human kind.

 _" the State Council said powdered forms of rhino horn and bones from dead
tigers could be used in "qualified hospitals by qualified doctors"."_

Conspiracy aside, this is impossible, since most of TCM is a nonsensical
superstition and anyone using tiger or rhino parts as therapy is de facto
unqualified as a doctor (or decent human). At least people will die or suffer
for harming these animals, since this "treatment" won't impact the course of
their diseases at all.

~~~
jstanley
How is this specific thing "very bad for the majority of human kind"?

It's very bad for rhinos and tigers, for sure.

~~~
malloryerik
It's just a disgusting little ornament on the much larger birthday cake we've
got baking in our oven.

To the backdrop of mass die-offs, the rules preventing the extinction of
rhinos and tigers are cut by a few power-hungry fools seeking the political
support of a few greedy fools who will sell those animals' horns and bones as
false cures to a few superstitious fools who believe these worthless tusks and
bones have magical powers. It's such dark planetary tragicomedy -- with a
focus on "tragic", a kind of satanic genius that even Mikhail Boulgakov
couldn't have dreamed up, and it's real.

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Nursie
Bye bye tigers.

Stunning, beautiful creatures. Humanity as a while has decided you're more
valuable as soup, or ground up into nostrums and magic potions than you are
alive, prowling the wild. You're not the first and you won't be the last.

It's shocking that this is still going on in the modern world.

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DataWorker
China is the number one threat to the US and to the future of the planet. We
ignore it and trade with them out of pure greed. It’s immoral and there should
be more sense of public shame. Doing business with China makes you an enemy of
freedom and the environment. Doing business with them is no different than
going out and poaching the endangered rhinos yourself.

~~~
timerol
Doing business with China has also helped lift 500 million people out of
extreme poverty in the past 35 years.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China)

~~~
DataWorker
Some seem to think the goal of all humanity should be to “lift everyone out of
poverty.” Even if it destroys the planet and leads to massive humanitarian
crises and ever greater suffering, putting dollars in wallets, that’s the
point of it all. Homo economicus.

~~~
cphoover
Aren't you using a laptop/phone or something to type this comment on? Seems a
bit hypocritical to me.

~~~
zanny
Seriously, every single one of us being on HN is the product of being stupidly
lucky to be born where we were and be typing on whatever we are.

Millions of potential Einsteins have lived and died as subsistence farmers or
worse throughout human history. If any of us were born fifty thousand years
ago we would not be savant geniuses bringing about the agricultural era - if
we even lived to adulthood (highly unlikely) we would have spent our days
chasing gazelle to exhaustion to survive just like the rest of mankind.

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narrator
Everyone's got to work harder in the west so we can get back to dominating the
earth such that we can impose our scientific value system on the superstitious
heathen. /s

All you guys going around saying Chinese traditional medicine is worthless are
like all the diplomats flying in to Israel saying that the conflict with the
Palestinians is just a land dispute and has nothing to do with religion. You
don't believe in anyone's values but your own.

Yeah, I like Rhinos and Tigers and if I had a button that said make sure I can
keep seeing rhinos and tigers when I go to the zoo once a year, I'd push it,
but if they disappeared my world and the world of most people would be largely
unaffected except for watching t.v documentaries about it happening in
countries I will never travel to. That's what majorly weirds me out about some
animal rights issues. None of this stuff will ever have an impact on your day
to day life ever, yet people care so intensely about it. How did we come to
intensely value Tigers and Rhinos even though our only interaction with them
throughout our life is a couple of minutes during occasional visits to the
zoo?

~~~
mikeash
The worth of traditional Chinese medicine isn’t a matter of values. It’s a
simple factual question with a simple answer.

~~~
ElBarto
There's a lot of interests in the plants and fungi, or even some animal
extracts, used in traditional Chinese medicine because they often do contain
active chemicals that may be used.

It's like traditional remedies in the West: The plants used usually really do
have medicinal properties.

(I'm not saying that a rhino horn has any useful properties, though...)

Edit: What's wrong, guys?

~~~
Symbiote
Once a plant, fungus or animal extract is proven to work (or a compound
isolated from it, and that proven to work) it is no longer "traditional
medicine". It is simply "medicine".

There is no evidence of any use for tiger penis or rhino horn.

~~~
ElBarto
> There is no evidence of any use for tiger penis or rhino horn.

I made it clear that I didn't think there was.

You guys need to calm down and put the pitchforks away.

~~~
mikeash
Why should we put the pitchforks away? The stuff that works isn't traditional
medicine, and _at best_ traditional medicine harms people by keeping them away
from actual treatment. Its role in driving tigers and rhinos closer to
extinction is merely a more obvious, albeit less serious, example of the
problems it causes.

~~~
ElBarto
> Why should we put the pitchforks away?

Lynch away. It's easier than thinking.

