
Apple Ending "Fortnite Save the World" Updates for Mac - tosh
https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/apple-ends-epics-ability-to-offer-fortnite-save-the-world-on-mac
======
fxtentacle
This is almost certainly due to their developer account being blocked, so it's
not like Epic is fully innocent here.

But what they are doing is brilliant, because they have just demonstrated that
their perceived infringement of the iOS rules has caused them to also lose Mac
developer access, presumably due to it being the same account. But legally,
the iOS and the Mac developer agreements are separate contracts. So from a
legal standpoint, Apple has reacted to a perceived infringement in one
contract by retaliating in a legally unrelated contract. That might be
illegal.

And in addition, Epic is basically using Apple to send a very strong signal to
game developers: Everyone serious about gaming is on Windows anyway.

I'm curious to see how this will mix with Apple silicon, which will
effectively make running a stock Windows impossible. So in the future, you'll
need to choose when buying your hardware if you want phone-quality games on
Mac or triple A on PC.

I predict that the market segment of casual players using Apple hardware but
Windows Bootcamp will now be driven away from Apple. In my opinion, the only
way to avoid that would have been for Apple to demonstrate excellent UE5
performance on Apple silicon, but that now surely won't happen.

~~~
hrktb
> This is almost certainly due to their developer account being blocked, so
> it's not like Epic is fully innocent here.

It looks more and more like Apple made a mistake in blocking the developper
account.

Arguably the reaction should have stopped at pulling Fortnite out of the
store. If extra steps were really needed, forcing suppression of Fortnite from
existing iOS devices could have been accepted as a related measure.

But blocking the whole developper account is so overreaching it still
generates news weeks after the initial issue.

It feels like Epic waived a red cloth and Apple just ran full speed into it. I
see the current mess completely of Apple's own doing.

~~~
WilTimSon
> It feels like Epic waived a red cloth and Apple just ran full speed into it.
> I see the current mess completely of Apple's own doing.

What kind of repercussions could it have? I'm sure it's not great PR, but is
it really likely this damages Apple in the long run? I'd presume Epic could
challenge the legality of these actions in a lawsuit but, other than that,
isn't Epic totally at Apple's mercy?

~~~
heavyset_go
> _but is it really likely this damages Apple in the long run?_

Of course it does. People like myself see the overreach Apple has taken with
their platforms and hardware, and as a result, I'm not going to rest the
viability of my business on Apple's whims.

~~~
hilbertseries
The iPhone market is still huge and valuable. It’s too much money to leave on
the table if you’re an app developer. You’re still going to build an IPhone
app you’re just going to be more careful about it.

~~~
danShumway
The endless HN swing between:

\- iOS is too important for developers to abandon, so it's not like people are
actually going to stop developing games for it.

and

\- Antitrust claims aren't valid against iOS because developers can just
choose to move to Android instead.

\----

All that aside, the important thing here is that Apple is now retaliating on
the _Mac_ , not just on iPhone. I was already never going to waste my time
building mobile games, in part because of iOS. So anything Apple does there
doesn't really change the status quo. But I'm increasingly looking at the
current situation and saying, "does it make more sense for my future games to
just be Windows/Linux?"

And while they do arguably have a big enough hold on the mobile market to
force mobile devs to support iOS, Apple definitely does not have a big enough
hold on the desktop gaming market to force developers to target Mac. They
could go from being pretty under-represented as a gaming platform back to
being completely unrepresented if they're not careful.

If AAA studios, special effects teams, and producers have to choose between
abandoning Unreal Engine or abandoning Mac, I don't think it's safe to assume
they're going to choose to abandon Unreal Engine. There are massive pipelines
invested into this thing, for better or worse.

~~~
codyb
Hmm, interesting. There's two sorts of monopolies here right?

From the consumer side you can move from iOS to Android and vice versa
relatively easily.

But from the developer side, despite having access to similar numbers of US
consumers the Apple market is far more profitable and can't be abandoned.

Are monopolies measured from the perspective of third parties like that? The
developers being the third parties here.

~~~
a1369209993
Apple has a monopoly on _the service of distributing iOS apps_. This is
something that iOS/phone app developers need in order to conduct business, and
which they are illegally (antitrust violations) being prevented from
purchasing that service from anyone but Apple. No one (worth listening to) is
claiming that Apple has a monopoly on _phones_.

------
makecheck
As a user and developer, it’s a little frustrating to see Apple try _so hard_
to ban an app that (like it or not) has real value to millions of people,
while in the meantime allowing so much _trash_ to exist in their stores.

Sneaking code into Fortnite? Really? I could probably pull up 10 examples of
sketchy apps in no time that clearly are doing things they shouldn’t (and
that’s just the “weather”).

Harm to Apple? I would argue that trash apps harm Apple considerably. For
instance, I have effectively stopped even _looking_ for software on the Mac
App Store, and the difficulty of searching/filtering has curtailed much of my
activity on the iOS App Store too. I know for certain that if the average
quality was higher and the search was _way_ better, I would be buying more.
Shouldn’t Apple care about things like that too?

~~~
millstone
Agree. Right now they are aggressively enforcing rules, but the rules are not
producing a high quality bar.

Apple needs to decide if they want the App Store to be carefully curated like
an Apple retail store, or broad like Amazon.com. Today they're squeezing the
quality while ignoring the shit; it's so backwards.

It really feels like there's two teams with different priorities.

~~~
kbenson
It makes perfect sense depending on how you look at it. If you look at it as a
question of quality, and Apple wanting to keep a high bar for quality, it
looks scatterbrained and ineffective. If you look at it as Apple trying to
wring all the money they can out of the market, then it only makes sense for
them to focus all their attention on the apps that are good enough to actually
make money.

If Apple truly cared about keeping the quality high in their walled garden,
and it wasn't just about extracting all the money they could, wouldn't they do
_both_?

~~~
millstone
The "wring all the money out of the market" theory explains Hey and Fortnite,
but not the many, many apps that receive arbitrary rejections, like this
recent HN browser:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24410652](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24410652)

This arbitrary friction of "what if the user searches for covid" is applied to
useful software, but not Candy Crush clones. So naturally the store fills with
shit. Even in the free app tier!

In some weird way, this shows it's not all about the money, since they're
fighting to keep out the quality _free_ stuff too.

~~~
kbenson
Well, who wants to pay for something when a good free alternative exists? And
if people aren't paying, how is Apple going to get their 30%?

Free apps are only in Apple's interest as much as they think it makes people
like their platform more. I think they care less about that then they used to,
since there's so many different things pulling and pushing people to use iOS
already.

------
sreekotay
Honestly, people complain about the impact of FANG on the crushing effect on
the market. The counter balance has always been the consumer good and
innovation they provide -- but it's been a LONG time since we've since
anything that isn't just incremental from Apple (others too - but not relevant
here). Good on Epic and Tim S sticking hard to it. I hope they prevail.

~~~
dijit
You’ve positioned this argument to make everyone who could counter you sound
like an Apple fanboy.

But let’s be clear here: Apples “innovation” is usually around usability and
accessibility.

Even with that said: the Apple Watch does not have an equal. It is the
absolute king of smart watches.

Or we could mention that their CPUs (on mobile) are usually 2 generations
ahead of other mobile devices.

You can fault them for many things, but they are innovating even if they
oversell the little innovation they make.

~~~
sbr464
I prefer the Garmin Fenix Sapphire to the Apple watch. I absolutely can't
stand the 18 hour battery life. I actually laughed out loud during the Apple
event when they mentioned you could monitor your blood oxygen levels while you
were sleeping. How is a dead watch the next day usable?

~~~
dpkonofa
I have an Apple Watch that I have been using for sleep tracking for the last 2
years. I use Sleep Cycle and charge my watch for 1 hour while I shower and get
ready for work. I have never, in that 2 years, had a dead watch the next day.
Since installing iOS 14, nothing has changed in that regard.

~~~
sbr464
Yeah, it's doable if you try or have a daily ritual. Camping trips or simply
being away from home for a day, business travel and leaving the charger in a
hotel etc, that constant upkeep is what keeps mine in the drawer. It would be
much easier if it used the same lightning connector.

------
lapcatsoftware
The latest Fortnite for Mac installer was code signed and notarized 3 days
ago, so this all seems very fishy to me.

[https://epicgames-
download1.akamaized.net/Builds/UnrealEngin...](https://epicgames-
download1.akamaized.net/Builds/UnrealEngineLauncher/Installers/Mac/EpicInstaller-10.18.8.dmg?launcherfilename=EpicInstaller-10.18.8-fortnite.dmg)

codesign -d -vv ~/Downloads/EpicInstaller-10.18.8-fortnite.dmg

It uses the Epic Games International certificate, which is protected by the
court's temporary restraining order.

~~~
modeless
I believe that "Fortnite Save The World" and "Fortnite" are different things;
is that the discrepancy?

~~~
judge2020
They both run in the same game, but you get to choose which one to boot into
once the game is open[0]. It doesn't launch another process, however to use it
you do have to install optional game files[1].

0 : [https://i.judge.sh/fuzzy/Fleet/FortniteClient-
Win64-Shipping...](https://i.judge.sh/fuzzy/Fleet/FortniteClient-
Win64-Shipping_knERhmwVO5.jpg)

1:
[https://i.judge.sh/caring/Dash/EpicGamesLauncher_e5xeoBNuA0....](https://i.judge.sh/caring/Dash/EpicGamesLauncher_e5xeoBNuA0.png)

------
ptasci67
What I find really interesting in this debate is how the same story can be
spun two ways. Here, the headline is listed as "Apple Ending "Fortnite Save
the World" Updates for Mac" which is a word for word title from Epic's blog
post. Fair enough.

The same story on Techmeme linked to an article about the blog post has the
title "Epic says it will shut down Fortnite: Save the World on macOS on
September 23rd".

Notice the tone shift from "Apple is shutting this down" to "Epic is shutting
this down". I guess I don't really have a point here other than the title is
not enough to draw a conclusion. Even reading a single source's take on a
story is not enough context to draw a balanced conclusion. There is bias and
nuance to every side and a healthy dose of skepticism is needed.

~~~
nrmitchi
I think your general point is valid, but the first line of this is literally:

> Apple is preventing Epic from signing games and patches for distribution on
> Mac, which ends our ability to develop and offer Fortnite: Save the World
> for the platform.

If we assume that that statement is true (and isn't Epic straight up lying),
it's pretty clear cut that this is Apple's decision and not Epic's. By taking
away Epic's capability to release updates, Apple is the one that has made the
decision. Again, unless you are insinuating that Epic is lying.

~~~
shajznnckfke
Apple’s argument is that Epic forced this action by violating their contract.
Epic will respond that the contract is unfair and illegal, and Apple’s
treatment of different developers under the contract is inconsistent. It ends
up being a conversation about who you favor in the Apple vs Epic fight, and
not really a falsifiable factual question.

~~~
JaggedJax
But did epic actually violate any part of their MacOS developer agreement, or
just their iOS agreement? I've seen some conflicting information here that
makes it seems as though Epic did nothing wrong on the MacOS side.

~~~
nrmitchi
The Apple-defense being pushed here seems to be that all Apple agreements are
one Apple agreement. Ie, if you have an issue with Apple in one are of
business, that Apple-as-a-company can retaliate in any other area of business.

It will get interesting if it extends to (although I can't image it would)
"Epic violated our App Store rules, therefore we were forced to disable Apple
services usage from all of their Apple devices. Unfortunately for security
reasons Apple devices are unable to function without those Apple services".

~~~
nodamage
Framing this as an "Apple-defense" seems kind of odd when it's just the legal
reality of the situation. There is a single agreement that covers development
for all Apple products.

The fact that you might be involved in multiple areas of business is no more
relevant here than it would be if you had a food delivery app, a yoga app, and
a music app. The same agreement governs all of your conduct with Apple.

~~~
nrmitchi
Even if it is the "legal reality", Apple wrote that "reality" in a way to use
its market position in one vertical to control people's actions in other.

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make with your analogy, but I
personally don't think it's reasonable that doing a chargeback on a food
delivery app (for any reason) should be grounds for me to lose access to my
music or yoga apps.

Google taking action like this (blocking accounts across their entire network
of companies) comes up on HN every once in a while, and Google is always "the
evil one". Apple is doing the same thing here but it's apparently more
acceptable?

~~~
nodamage
> Apple wrote that "reality" in a way to use its market position in one
> vertical to control people's actions in other.

Again, that is your framing and doesn't take into account that maintaining
independent contracts for each individual app would be incredibly impractical.
Some developers have hundreds of apps in the app store. Are you really
suggesting that if the developer commits a fraudulent act in a single app
within a large portfolio of apps, that Apple should only be allowed to take
action against that one specific app as opposed to banning the developer
entirely?

> I'm not sure the point you're trying to make with your analogy

My point is that this is standard industry practice so framing it as something
particularly evil that Apple has done is kind of silly. Look at Google's Play
Store agreement, or Steam, or even Epic's own game store. The fact that all
these different companies do things the same way indicates there's probably a
valid reason for it.

> I personally don't think it's reasonable that doing a chargeback on a food
> delivery app (for any reason) should be grounds for me to lose access to my
> music or yoga apps.

As a consumer, no. But we're talking about two businesses here. If you commit
fraud in your food delivery app why should Apple (or any company) be required
to continue distributing your music or yoga apps? How do they know you won't
do the exact same thing in your other apps?

This example isn't just hypothetical, it's a real issue in the Google Play
Store. Malicious developers will build up a portfolio of apps, and then once
the install base is large enough, begin to sneak malware into future releases
of the apps. Google is constantly playing a whack-a-mole game against these
developers. Imagine how much harder that game would be if they couldn't ban
the developer and had to wait until malware was discovered in each individual
app before they could ban that app.

------
mensetmanusman
With how horrible the trajectory of macOS has been due to Apple being almost
exclusively an iOS profit driven company, this may be better for everyone by
forcing consumers to move towards more open PC architectures.

~~~
pjmlp
Windows with store?

ChromeOS and Android with everything going through Google servers?

Linux distributions with their 2% market size, going to take over the desktop
since DX 10 wasn't available in XP?

~~~
thatguy0900
You mean the windows store with no relevancy that Noone distributes on anyway?

~~~
pjmlp
That is what many in HN like circles keep thinking, meanwhile I know of
several Fortune 500 where that is the only distribution channel enabled by IT.

Windows 10X might not have been released as planned, but it will come.

~~~
tpush
> [...] meanwhile I know of several Fortune 500 where that is the only
> distribution channel enabled by IT.

Can you name one?

~~~
pjmlp
NDA

------
foepys
20 years ago who would have thought that Apple would become the company that
hides behind corporate talk about ToS and restricts what can run on their
platforms, and Microsoft would become a company with many open source projects
and an open platform?

~~~
justinclift
> an open platform

Microsoft has an open platform?

~~~
romanoderoma
> Microsoft has an open platform?

Compared to Apple?

Absolutely yes.

I can even run Linux transparently on Windows.

------
uberswe
Apple's response looks very silly or childlike. I guess they want to pick a
fight but I don't know what they have to gain from it. I pick Apple devices
because they are easy to use. I don't play Fortnite but if this happened to
any software I used on a weekly basis I would be pretty upset at Apple.

~~~
heavymark
Apple did not pick a fight. Epic did by explicitly doing something to
knowingly break the rules to cause this issue and even had a heavily produced
marketing video about it prepared day one. While people can debate the value
of what is provided for 30% cut, intentionally breaking the rules / picking a
fight has consequences that were laid out ahead of time.

~~~
EastSmith
Epic did not pick a fight. Apple did by introducing the 30% tax in the first
place and then keep sticking with the 30% tax on everything when everyone have
already realized that that tax is not normal.

~~~
dbt00
Again, how much does playstation, xbox, steam and google play charge?

~~~
phonon
Steam goes down to 20%

[https://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamworks/announcements/d...](https://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamworks/announcements/detail/1697191267930157838)

------
McGlockenshire
What an odd thing for Epic to announce.

Save the World has already been announced as receiving no further gameplay
updates. In other words, the game is just as much of a zombified husk as the
mobs you're asked to kill in it.

Just like most of the rest of Epic's announcements about their conflict with
Apple, this just seems like more empty propaganda.

~~~
johnnyfaehell
> Just like most of the rest of Epic's announcements about their conflict with
> Apple, this just seems like more empty propaganda.

Well, it is. They're in a PR battle with Apple. And weirdly this massively
rich company that is complaining about not having enough money is actually
considered right by a lot of folk. What they're complaining about is pretty
much agreed by everyone, the only things that differ is if Apple's wall garden
is a good thing or a bad thing.

------
nodamage
It's worth noting that Apple in their latest legal filing
([https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265...](https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265/gov.uscourts.cand.364265.73.0.pdf))
has made a fairly aggressive argument asking the judge to allow them to
terminate Epic's international developer account which is used to develop
Unreal Engine. The argument is based primarily on two factors:

1\. Epic snuck hidden code into Fortnite. Apple no longer trusts that Epic
won't also sneak hidden code into Unreal Engine.

2\. Epic International is apparently collecting the payments from
international iOS users that are using the hidden payment system in Fortnite,
so it is directly linked to the breaching conduct.

So there's still a very real risk that Epic will lose access to the developer
tools and signing capabilities for its Unreal Engine business as well.

------
swiley
It's interesting to note that Epic managed for a short while to get behavior
into their app on people's iphones.

Apple doesn't instrument apps, malware can be uploaded to the app store and as
long as it's not widely known can exist for a while. The app store provides
little benefit for consumers and only moves power from them to Apple.

~~~
scarface74
How would you propose that Apple “instrument” apps to prevent Epic from
pushing a server side change?

~~~
hortense
They can't, and that's the whole point. The security comes from the sandbox,
not from the review process.

------
driverdan
This is a good example of why everyone should oppose code signing
requirements. Users should be able to easily run any code they want on their
system. No one should be able to prevent me from running something I choose to
run.

And yes, it's possible to run it unsigned but Apple has intentionally
obfuscated how to do it.

~~~
kevindong
> And yes, it's possible to run it unsigned but Apple has intentionally
> obfuscated how to do it.

It's literally right click on the .app and click 'Open'. Or alternatively,
open up the security settings and click the 'Open Anyway' button.

\---

Certainly not ideal for developers who do regularly open up unsigned binaries,
but you have to admit it's probably somewhat effective at preventing malware
for non-developers.

~~~
aero-glide
Off topic, but is there a way to sideload like that on iOS without jailbreak?

~~~
snazz
If it's open source, then just compile it in Xcode and sign it with your
personal Apple ID. You don't need a developer account or anything. You will
have to resign it every seven days, although you can automate this process
with something like AltStore.

~~~
ornitorrincos
So, now you need a mac.

Also do you realize how absurd the whole process sounds? If I want to install
an app from an independent source I shouldn't be required to go through those
steps, assuming the app is open source in the first place.

------
abduhl
I don't get it, isn't it still possible for everyone to "sideload" Fortnite
onto their Mac without it being signed? Why is Epic stopping development
instead of just offering the update?

~~~
pornel
On macOS there are 3 tiers: AppStore, Developer Id, and "This is malware, move
it to Trash". Apple has blocked the first two.

The third one has a workaround, but it's intentionally designed to be semi-
hidden and confusing to an average person. I expect HN crowd to think it's not
a problem, but to me as a developer it's a support headache, and embarrassment
to tell every user "yeah, no, we're not malware, please do these steps to
bypass all these scary security warnings".

All Macs have shitty GPUs, so Epic may even be happy they have a good excuse
to drop Mac.

~~~
darkwizard42
Eh, Fortnite runs on nearly all types of machines. It's designed to be
playable on even potato level machines (that is part of its appeal and reach,
see: League of Legends as well)

------
exabrial
Pre Tim Cook, Apple just out-innovated, not strong armed. Terrible. I really
wish they were an alternative to Facebook/Google.

~~~
scarface74
Because the Watch, the AirPods, are nothing - even though they both make more
in revenue than the iPods at peak.

The iPad is much better than the pre-Cook iPad 2.

Apple’s processor lines are head and shoulders above the competition and the
ARM Macs will probably be some combination of faster, cheaper, more power
efficient than any x86 PC.

And then we have Epic.

Selling Carlton Dances with virtual currency.

~~~
pjmlp
The problem are all those GNU/Linux users that bought into Apple's ecosystem
because UNIX without being really part of the Apple eco-system culture.

Now they complain, well should have spent money supporting GNU/Linux OEMs
instead.

Same applies to Epic, fine with console restrictions, thinking that they can
play their weight everywhere Tim feels like it.

~~~
belval
Linux user here, bold of you to assume that my workplace gave me any kind of
choice in the matter.

------
eecc
Well, doesn’t seem like any _additional action_ has taken place... it’s just
an effect of revoking the developer ids used previously.

I wonder if they can just distribute the game as an unsigned binary from their
website, post the SHA and tell uses to right-click launch the app. Sure the
experience sucks, but it works

~~~
dddddaviddddd
Agreed, Apple wouldn't really have any recourse here except to (long-shot) add
Fortnite to the XProtect, which would be beyond extreme.

------
Wowfunhappy
I don’t understand why Epic isn’t releasing unsigned builds for Mac. Allowing
an app through Gatekeeper is not any more difficult than sideloading an APK,
and Epic seems perfectly happy to guide users through the latter.

~~~
foepys
Epic admitted that their side-loading on Android didn't work for their
customers when Epic put Fortnite on the Google Play Store. They tried to make
it as easy as possible and still couldn't get enough users to do it.

~~~
sidibe
It could hardly be easier to do, just click the apk link and agree to the
dialog box. The problem seems to be just that noone is looking for an app
outside of the app stores.

~~~
abawany
One minor counter-example: to enable third-party apps on my Android-supporting
Chromebook, I had to go through considerable contortions (1). It was not as
easy as it is on typical Android devices.

1: Install Linux sub-system, install android-tools, wget the apk, and adb
install it on the same host. Now I get a warning on the login page about
'unapproved apps'. It is not great.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Wait, WTF? You have to install the entire Linux subsystem to sideload APKs on
a Chromebook that officially supports Android apps?

This is horrible!

I have a very clear line in the sand for this stuff. I don't mind Gatekeeper
and SIP because if you know what you're doing, disabling them is painless, and
you aren't punished for doing it. Disabling SIP doesn't add a constant
watermark to the desktop, and the setting doesn't expire after a set amount of
time or after updating. The OS says "okay, cool, you clearly know what you're
doing so we'll get out of your way now," and I don't have to think about it
again until I buy a new computer.

~~~
abawany
It was pretty bad - the Android sub-system does not seem to be available to
external adb instances afaict. Also, this was a recent 'improvement': previous
versions of ChromeOS required putting the device in dev mode to allow external
apk installs.

------
davidw
I haven't followed this much, except for my kid being bummed his game isn't
being updated on his iPad.

Maybe I can use it as a teaching moment to explain why dad uses Linux.

------
flipgimble
A quick story to illustrate why Apple will likely keep doing its thing despite
Epic and any other criticism:

My neighbor has two young teenage sons who are into PC gaming, also Android
tablets. They sometimes come to me with questions knowing that I'm in the
industry. Several months ago there was an incident where the parent discovered
over $2500 in credit card charges mostly due to in game purchases. A good
chunk was on Fortnite V-Bucks but also some SuperCell games. They were able to
request a refund for more than half, and it was a stressfull event for the
family with a lot of disciplinary actions following. I was asked for advice on
about any technical solutions to the problem. I was able to suggest monitoring
credit card charges in realtime, some parental controls that were rather
painful to setup. Another touchy subject was how to talk to and educate their
kids about online spending.

This incident highlighted how unregulated and seemingly dangerous the Windows
and Android platforms are to an average non-technical family. You need to
install AntiVirus software, you have to worry about malware, you have to worry
about kids installing random crapware that bogs down performance (remember the
IE toolbars?). I have to say Amazon and Xbox Live parental controls are some
of the most kafkaesque nightmares I've had to battle with.

I also see predatory techniques aimed at kids that have long been used by
companies that are primary funded by in-app purchases. There is widely
discussed concept of fun-pain in this genre of game development, where you
induce some level of "pain" that would induce someone to pay money to
alleviate it. Simple example is to eliminate wait time for artificial delays
in game progression. Yes, in some ways Apple and this entire genre of mobile
games, profited from it and is now trying to provide alternatives with the
Apple Arcade model.

In comparison Apple and iOS provides a walled utopia for these families and
justifies its tight controls as a method of providing that safe and worry free
computing experience.

How many people bought an iPad for their older relatives because they were
just tired of family tech support? Seems like it was enough for that to become
a tired stereotype with a grain of truth.

I have sympathies for the idea of an open computing platform as a developer. I
see the web and open source an excellent outlet for those that are willing to
take on that level of responsibility with their devices.

However most takes on Apple in response to the Epic spat have been crude
caricatures of a capricious monopolist robber baron type. I'm not in complete
opposition to that idea, but that its not a particularly sophisticated or
informative analysis, when their success clearly shows a market need for just
this type of curated platform.

Also Epic knowingly violated terms of a contract that they agreed to when it
suited them and are painting it as a moral imperative as opposed to an
argument over money and how to extract it from customers.

~~~
KindOne
>Several months ago there was an incident where the parent discovered over
$2500 in credit card charges mostly due to in game purchases.

This sounds more of a parenting issue. How and why did the kids have access to
the credit card info?

~~~
ryneandal
Locking down and/or outright refusing to enable purchases is one of the first
steps taken when getting my kids new devices. The most recent setup of my
daughter's new PC in Windows 10 was easier than it had been on iOS for her
iPhone.

~~~
KindOne
How and why does your kids devices have access to your credit card info?

~~~
flipgimble
I could give you a quick example but do you expect the answer to this repeated
question changing the fact that this is a real issue for responsible and
engaged parents?

I was going to write more details, but I don't feel comfortable recounting
other people's personal details. I could anonymize it but that would make it
sound contrived. As someone who's daily job is consulting and helping solve
tough technical problems for non-technical clients, I feel for these parents
being overwhelmed. I can see how the technology is not always on their side
when considering the marketing towards their kids and the type of e-commerce
dark patterns.

~~~
ryneandal
> I feel for these parents being overwhelmed.

I concur. I work with ACLs and permissions on a daily basis, my wife doesn't.
This affinity for permissions structures rears it's head when she is entirely
frustrated when setting up whitelisting for my daughter's MS account.

------
tosh
I wonder what the Fortnite user base and revenue looks like by platform

------
013a
This situation is very complex, but the outcome of the court case will have
huge consequences. It wouldn't surprise me if it gets pushed around a couple
courts for a year or two.

On the one hand, I think Epic's decision to flagrantly ignore the developer
agreement in order to tease out a ban was a mistake. At the most basic level
its going to cost them a ton of money, but its also become something of a red
herring in the court case. It _may_ work to their favor, as Apple goes
scorched earth on all of their properties and ability to develop on Apple
platforms, but its a huge gambit that could just as easily end with them never
being allowed back on an Apple platform. That won't benefit anyone.

Apple's side came out with a statement maybe yesterday which essentially
outlined the insane amount of effort Apple went through to support Fortnite on
iOS, including setting up a 24/7 support team, express reviewing dozens of
updates, and sending engineers to North Carolina to help them integrate with
Metal/Apple Silicon. That also doesn't come off good for Epic. The effort
Apple put in may not be explicitly valued at the low-hundreds of millions of
dollars Apple has made off of their 30% cut, but its also not worth nothing
(and certainly worth more than the $100/year developers pay to have an Apple
Developer account). It comes off like Epic wants all of the support,
marketing, and customers Apple provides, then when its convenient for them,
they sue for the ability to release their own store on iOS and bypass all the
cuts Apple would take.

Additionally, Epic has chosen Apple as the target for this crusade, while they
still gladly lay in bed with Xbox, PlayStation, and Nintendo, _and_ actively
cast Linux aside via refusing to support it in Fortnite/Epic Games Store, and
even removing support for it in Rocket League. I'm firmly on the side that iOS
needs a more open and equitable application ecosystem; whether that means
alternate storefronts, or alternate payment processors, or lessened app
submission rules, I don't know. But Epic is schizophrenic. Valve is a great
example of a company that, excepting a few isolated releases that they likely
treat as mistakes, actually does push for supporting open platforms in both
word and deed. It can be done. But, again, this comes off like Epic wanting
their cake and eating it too. Why does Epic still put up with PlayStation,
despite they also taking 30% and disallowing alternate storefronts? Well, they
probably negotiated a lower rate, and it doesn't hurt that Sony owns like 3%
of Epic. So Apple argues that they don't negotiate, and everyone is charged
the same rate? That doesn't look good for Epic.

But, on Apple's side: I can't in good faith trust their desire to get into TV,
Music, and Gaming while still being fair in App Store policies. There are zero
examples of megacorps having that much broad & specific control over the
success of their competitors and not abusing it. Apple needs to lose this
case, to some degree. There are billions of computer users totally beholden to
Apple's policies, and tens of thousands of developers who can't just ignore
those users and expect their business to survive. Would Spotify be ok without
iOS? Netflix? Hey? I don't know, but while Epic will absolutely be fine, I
suspect one click in an App Store administrative console could mean the end of
many businesses. These businesses don't need App Store marketing. They don't
need highly complex platform technologies, nor A22x Apple Hyper-Silicon, nor
Apple Pay, nor anything differentiable Apple provides; they just need the eyes
and ears of their customers, who _happened_ to pick iOS for reasons unrelated
to their business. There should be a place for applications like these on iOS,
which are fundamentally different from applications that are built to their
core with Apple tech, rely on Apple marketing, the App Store's 70%, and
legitimately gain a lot from the relationship with Apple.

------
xenonite
I ask myself if this is more an US vs. China issue (Epic is owned by a
significant Chinese minority).

------
coded
Guys, is it just me or is the real crime here that people actually game on a
Mac?!

------
xmodem
Gotta run up that damages bill

------
cletus
So I initially was a fan of the idea of the Mac App Store for the same reason
why I think an iOS is, for most people, necessary: sandboxing apps is just a
good idea. So is standardizing installs, removals and updates.

Epic defied Apple's rules here, quite openly. Faced with dissension, from a
political point of view you have a choice to make. Apple chose to come down
hard on this rebellion. It immediately went nuclear, spilling over the
Fortnite-on-iOS dispute into both Mac and iOS and for anything that runs
Unreal Engine.

Apple is clearly trying to send a message and keep everyone in line with this
strategy. This is straight out of the despot's playbook. Just look at Vladimir
Putin and Mikhail Khodorkovsky. By taking down the biggest oligarch sent the
message to the others saying "you aren't untouchable". I see Apple's move here
in the same light. Apple is saying "we don't care how big Fortnite is; we're
going to make an example out of you".

This strongly suggests to me that Apple fears rebellion..

I think this strategy is a huge mistake. Apple's arguments are pretty weak
here too. "We don't know what Trojan Horses Epic will put into the Unreal
Engine so we have to ban any use of it". Uh... sure. And while Epic's move was
clearly against Apple's rules, it wasn't clandestine or malicious (to the
users) either.

By attempting to ban any use of Unreal Engine on iOS and OSX, Apple is doing
nothing more than demonstrating they're a monopoly and are capable (if not
actually) engaging in anticompetitive behaviour.

I still think Apple's payment ecosystem (and 30% cut) actually makes a lot of
sense for the bottom 90% of publishers. For the likes of Epic, Netflix,
Unisoft, Activision, Hulu and the likes it doesn't. These guys all have their
own payment infrastructure and are cross-platform.

Apple's stance on the 30% cut for these guys just doesn't make sense. And I
don't think it will last. Either the cut will come down or exceptions will
eventually be carved out for top-tier publishers.

------
EvilEy3
Good riddance.

------
ericmay
Or maybe Epic is ending them? I think all they have to do is comply with the
App Store policies and they'll be welcomed back.

~~~
anned20
It's literally Epic not wanting to comply with Apple's App Store policies and
then crying that Apple is bullying them for not making an exception.

~~~
plorg
Certainly Epic is in a place that other Apple customers are not, in having the
user base to profitably run a competing App Store. But I haven't heard any
where that Epic wants an exception and fuck everyone else. Apple might do that
if it shut Epic up, but they could also make TOS changes that made their
customer relationships unilaterally less one-sided, and that would be less
"exception" than "change". (at which point "crying" might better be described
as "arguing" or even "protesting")

I don't particularly like either company here, but Apple using its market
power to inhibit competition certainly sounds like the bigger problem.

~~~
ascagnel_
> But I haven't heard any where that Epic wants an exception and fuck everyone
> else.

Apple has made a few filings documenting this, including that Epic
specifically asked for a side letter to the standard developer contract
granting them special treatment.

------
nuker
Its time to ban Epic vs The World posts. No value. They decided to break TOS,
thats all there is.

~~~
cyptus
or do apple's TOS break the laws? thats why there is a lawsuit about this

~~~
misnome
Until that lawsuit completes, isn't it reasonable for Apple to continue
enforcing the existing contract?

Didn't Epic even file for an injunction to stop them doing exactly this, and
were denied? (the court just prevented apple from also applying it to the
engine)

~~~
ascagnel_
I think it's reasonable, as long as Apple doesn't cause lasting harm. The
problem is that Epic is cross-pollinating between multiple corporate entities,
so separating everything out in a way that doesn't cause lasting harm
(especially to third-party licensees) is going to be difficult.

\- Epic Games controls Fortnite

\- Epic SARL controls the Unreal Engine dev work on macOS/iOS

\- Epic SARL also collects direct international payments for the developer-
agreement infringing version of Fortnite

In an ideal world, Epic Games should be banned for the duration of the trial,
Epic SARL should be ordered to direct all revenues from the infringing
Fortnite version into an escrow account (or at least provide the court with
ongoing accounting so the court can issue damages, if necessary), and Epic
SARL should be allowed to continue operating as normal.

Separately, if Apple prevails in the court, Apple should be allowed to ban
Epic SARL as well. If Epic marketed iOS publishing as a feature of their
engine, it's Epic's responsibility to deliver that feature to their customers;
Apple should only be responsible for allowing the customer to publish with an
app that uses any engine, not the Unreal Engine specifically.

~~~
nodamage
> \- Epic SARL also collects direct international payments for the developer-
> agreement infringing version of Fortnite

I think it's possible that the judge allows Apple to ban Epic SARL based on
this alone. The original justification was that they were two separate
entities and only one breached its agreement. If Epic SARL is making money
from the infringing version of Fortnite then it's involved in the breaching
conduct as well.

~~~
ascagnel_
I should note on this -- _Apple_ is the one asserting that Epic SARL is
accepting payments in one of its legal filings; Epic may yet provide evidence
that it is not, in which case this situation becomes a lot clearer for the
duration of the trial.

------
pjmlp
Next time Epic will think twice about bullying platform owners.

Nope, they aren't special above anyone else.

~~~
thatguy0900
I have a feeling Apple will come out far worse than epic when this is over.

~~~
dbt00
Lawsuits have a way of ending up funny. AT&T sued UCB over BSD Unix, ended up
having to admit they stole tons of shit from UCB.

That said, my prediction is that most of this lawsuit will be over contract
law, and Apple has Epic over a barrel on that. Whether or not Epic should have
to pay 30%, cloaking violating code changes in an update to slip it past the
app store reviewers is a mortal sin under Apple's terms and they are perfectly
within their rights to treat everything Epic does from now on as an
unrepentant violator.

~~~
CodesInChaos
The lawsuit is only round 1. Providing a nice demonstration of apple abusing
their market position could result in regulatory action.

------
svartkanin
A company has to make profit to support their tens of thousands of engineers.
Google releases an enormous amount of products for free and gets the profit
from advertisement and user data.

Apple on the other hand takes the cut from their products and software.

Somehow everyone seems to want things for free and never and keep the whole
cake for themselves. Using any app store as a company is like renting renting
selling space where customers browse. But the app store owner takes care of
the maintenance so why wouldn't they get their cut for that?

------
scarface74
If Epic does win. Good luck at getting this level of support from Apple.

[https://bgr.com/2020/09/17/fortnite-lawsuit-apple-epic-
games...](https://bgr.com/2020/09/17/fortnite-lawsuit-apple-epic-games-
threats-revenue/)

 _As detailed by Grimm, Apple and Epic engineers over the past two years
remained in “near-constant contact” to ensure that Fortnite could run
optimally at all times and across a variety of devices. Grim notes that Apple
provided Epic with a substantial amount of engineering support to “reduce
Fortnite’s memory footprint” which allowed it to run on older iPhone models.

In addition, Apple has also provided hardware to Epic, including 16 Apple
Silicon Developer Transitions Kits across Epic’s engineering organization, to
ensure high-performance functioning of Unreal Engine 4 and the future Unreal
Engine 5 on forthcoming Macintosh computers with new Apple silicon processors.
This represents as much support as Apple provides to most any other developer.
In addition, in response to repeated demands by Epic, Apple has permitted Epic
to distribute builds on some 950 iPads and 1150 iPhones for app development
and testing purposes— again, as much as Apple allocates to any other
developer. These allowances are valuable to Epic as they magnify the company’s
ability to fine tune their apps and refine their products in advance of going
live with users._

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
If apple is smart, they will continue to aggressively support companies that
make highly demanded software for their ecosystem. Software is ultimately what
motivates people to use a computer.

~~~
scarface74
They can easily support, promote or even fund competitors to Epic. By the time
this winds it’s way through courts, people will have moved on anyway.

Besides, no one buys a Mac for its great game software or hardware.

