
Stockholm – it's not a coincidence - msvan
http://www.visitstockholm.com/en/moving-to-stockholm/other-services/Stockholm---its-not-a-coincidence/
======
Dolimiter
Meanwhile, in the real world...

Don't come to Sweden without a job. Even then, Sweden is one of the most
difficult countries in Europe to migrate to. Society is extremely
conservative, and social opportunities to "get to know" Swedes are limited.

Without a solid job offer, you are in trouble. Sweden is having a job crisis
at the moment, and only Swedes are being hired. Are you a working professional
with a solid CV? No-one cares, there are no jobs for you. Have 10 years
experience in a sector? Sorry, you need a Swedish qualification for that job.

Please note that I am employed, integrated, and super happy here. But I have
met 100s of expats whose dreams have been crushed by the Swedish system and by
the limited social opportunities.

~~~
msvan
I'm quite tired of hearing people saying Swedish people are "cold." There are
plenty of opportunities to get to know us if you put in the effort. Emigrating
is always tough.

If you come from the US, you might find that we don't small talk as much.
Cashiers, officials, salespeople and the like will engage with you in a
completely different way in Sweden, which might come as a bit of a cultural
shock when you come to here. As a social introvert, I kind of like it. I also
like the US way. Potato potahto.

Being Swedish, I can't really comment on the jobs part.

~~~
Dolimiter
I have Swedish friends, took a few years.

Almost every expat I meet has none. There is a wall there. It is unlike any
other country. Sorry.

~~~
vegardx
This is pretty common for all nordic countries. It's really tough getting to
know people, even if you're native. I recently moved from a small town to the
capitol, and struggled to meet new people.

I met a lot of people, but all of them were expats, in the same boat as me.
After a few years I now have a few local Norwegian friends, but nothing like
where I grew up. That said - when you get "accepted" into a group, they'll
treat you really nice, and introduce you to a lot of people.

Scandinavians, and especially Norwegians are really reserved to strangers.
You'll rarely be talked to in public by a stranger or something like that.
It's just a cultural thing.

~~~
_delirium
> I met a lot of people, but all of them were expats

I actually really like this about Copenhagen. You can meet a _ton_ of
interesting people, from all over. It's often easier to meet them than in
their home countries, too, because you have this being-foreign thing in
common. I've met a bunch of Spanish and German people in Copenhagen who I
doubt I would've met in Spain and Germany, for example. Compared to other
places where that might happen I think it's particularly ideal because there
is so much use of English as a lingua-franca in public settings: many events,
talks, meetups, university programs, cultural programs, etc. are in English,
even when there are few to no native English speakers present, and the crowds
they attract are very multicultural (lots of Danes, lots of foreigners from
European countries, and a few non-European foreigners). So it's not only these
little expat ghettoes like the "Italians in Germany club" that foreigners can
go to. Rather, lots of public events are just routinely multinational. For
example the monthly meetup of Copenhagen game developers is in English and
typically has 10+ nationalities represented.

I assumed Stockholm would be similarly multicultural, but perhaps not?

------
nkoren
Very cool video for what is indeed a wonderful city. Yet it is also a very,
very, very expensive city. I remember the last time I returned home from a
trip to Stockholm, the relief I felt as the wheels hit the runway: "Aaaahhh...
finally back in the land where things are affordable!"

(As a point of reference: I live in central London.)

~~~
mhp
This could be a plus for some people, but average low temperatures are at or
below freezing for half the year. source: [http://www.holiday-
weather.com/stockholm/averages/](http://www.holiday-
weather.com/stockholm/averages/)

~~~
PeterWhittaker
At or below freezing? Bah! I'll see your mild summers and chilly winters and
raise you hot and humid and frikkin' cold!

[http://www.holiday-weather.com/ottawa/averages/](http://www.holiday-
weather.com/ottawa/averages/)

Stockholm is positively mild compared to Ottawa.

~~~
Dewie
Good for you, man.

------
johansch
Here are the relevant rules for people who might want to move to Sweden to
start their own business:

[http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-
individuals/W...](http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-
individuals/Working-in-Sweden/Self-employment.html)

"Requirements for obtaining a residence permit as a self-employed

In order to obtain a residence permit, you must:

\- have a valid passport

\- show that you have significant experience in your field and previous
experience of running your own business

\- have documented knowledge in Swedish and/or English

\- show that you are running the business, that you have the ultimate
responsibility for it and that you own at least half of the business

\- show that the business' services or goods are sold and/or produced in
Sweden

\- show that you have sufficient funds to support you and, if applicable, your
family during the first two years (equivalent to SEK 200,000 for you, SEK
100,000 for your spouse and SEK 50,000 for each accompanying child)

\- show that the business, following the two-year probationary period, is
expected to be able to support yourself and, if applicable, your family.

The Swedish Migration Board will assess your business plans from a financial
perspective."

~~~
oscargrouch
This is all very reasonable and pretty unusual.. i wonder how many migratory
pressure the country is feeling usually, given the instability in some regions
of the world that have Europe as a common migratory target.. it looks that the
political class can keep its own sanity, even when pressure may be higher..

I wonder how much of this resonable migratory pressure is given to the Welfare
state policy..

------
Yrlec
Stockholm's startup community has really blossomed in recent years. I think
two reasons behind it are: 1\. A more competitive tax policy
([http://forumblog.org/2014/06/europes-top-ten-competitive-
eco...](http://forumblog.org/2014/06/europes-top-ten-competitive-economies/)).
2\. More VC and Angel captial available as a result of previous Swedish
unicorns such as Skype, Spotify and King.

If you happen to visit Stockholm you should check out STHLM Tech Meetup
([http://www.meetup.com/STHLM-Tech-Meetup/](http://www.meetup.com/STHLM-Tech-
Meetup/)) and SUP46: [http://sup46.com/](http://sup46.com/).

~~~
rational-future
Skype is not Swedish. It was developed in Estonia and incorporated in
Luxembourg.

~~~
sandstrom
True, though it was founded by a Swede and a Dane (and with some of its
initial capital being from Sweden).

But I partly agree, saying it's a Swedish company is a stretch.

------
dsco
A great city to live in indeed. But as someone who's stayed here for over 20
years the winters are still unbearable. Mind you, all of the perks in the
video are something I appreciate each day – but the cold and lack of sunlight
8 months a year takes a toll on you – especially if you enjoy being outdoors
more than indoors.

~~~
BugBrother
Frankly, the best thing with coming from Sweden is that you get better weather
_wherever_ you move (except Iceland, Greenland -- and England). :-)

That said, I'd like to be more in .se in the summers than I can do now. It is
so beautiful with the light, the forests and the lakes.

Edit: I don't mind the cold, but: For yellowapple and others -- the lack of
sun influences your hormone levels, people are a bit different in the winter.
I was amazed when I saw discussion of SAD among Californians; up in
Scandinavia, it is just how it is. I didn't even note it, unless I went on a
winter vacation.

~~~
Dewie
> Frankly, the best thing with coming from Sweden is that you get better
> weather wherever you move (except Iceland, Greenland -- and England). :-)

Judging from the numbers, it looks decently typical for a Scandinavian city at
its latitude.

~~~
BugBrother
>>it looks decently typical for a Scandinavian city at its latitude.

I did write "Sweden", not Stockholm, so yes.

(Sure, north Sweden is a different subject.)

(I had fun on Facebook yesterday when the Finns told about their snow. :-) It
is very uncommon in June.)

Edit: To move inside Scandinavia isn't really moving to a foreign country,
Dewie. I lived in Helsinki a few years, really nice but it was disappointingly
non-exotic.

Edit 2: And for Norwegian weather -- check climate of Bergen for rain. (That
said, a wonderful city to live.)

~~~
Dewie
> I did write "Sweden", not Stockholm, so yes.

So Swedish weather is overall worse than Norwegian weather? How?

> EDIT: To move inside Scandinavia isn't really moving to a foreign country,
> Dewie.

Who said anything about anything like that? I wanted to know how Sweden has
such a terrible weather (apparently).

~~~
BugBrother
It seems I stepped on some sensitive (Norwegian?) toes here by a sloppy
formulation seeming to imply that Sweden == Scandinavia. :-)

If so, I am sorry about your national pride. The countries and weather are
really similar, especially from my present viewpoint from far to the south.

(And if you're just a troll wasting people's time, get a life kid.)

Edit: It seemed from other comments you are Norwegian, so I assumed you knew
all about the local weather. (I.e. similar, maybe a bit warmer and more rain
in Norway, depending on exactly where.)

~~~
Dewie
Yes, I was really offended that you would imply that Sweden has a worse
climate than Norway. I guess.

Asking a simple question is like pulling teeth with you - now you've been
through living in different Scandinavian cities, how non-exotic they are, and
my national pride - when all the original question was about was the weather.
Thank me for wasting your time? Likewise.

------
antr
Cry havoc!

These crazy, bicycle riding, northern European hippies talking about
recycling, 'health, safety & security', exceptional quality of life! You
communists!

Give me my car, suburban house, gun, and private healthcare. Give me my
freedom back!

</sarcasm>

Good for Stockholm and Sweden. I only wish cities and companies valued these
as much as many of us do. Focusing on making cities more liveable, easy to
move around, safe, etc are big problem/concerns off people's backs; and there
is a direct economic benefit to all of these.

~~~
return0
How is bicycle riding in sweden really? The weather doesn't sound very
cooperative.

~~~
jib
As someone who once upon a time worked as a bike riding mailman in Sweden,
it's largely fine. :)

There's a good amount of bike lanes, and they are largely snowy in the winter
rather than icy (due to not as much traffic as the main roads), or they are
graveled when there is ice, so it's rare that it is too slippery (biking on
snow is fine, ice can be messy). You have to go a bit slower than normal,
sure, but it's hardly a problem.

Cold isnt a problem - you do fine with like a fleece down to minus 10 or so,
and most places aren't colder than that very often (unless you are very far
north).

Rain is the same as anywhere - no problem as long as you have some protective
gear.

Thats just the winter though - summer it is perfect.

------
cesarbs
The website makes it sound like it's relatively simple to move there for work,
and permanent residence seems to be granted after 4 years working there. Can
someone confirm that it is really that simple? What is the situation like for
software developers who already have experience abroad (my case, I'm from
Brazil but currently working in the US)?

~~~
_delirium
If you have an offer of full-time employment, it's relatively easy (especially
in the technology sector, since "in-demand" areas have some extra deference).
This is sometimes called "sponsorship", but unlike the U.S. H1B process, the
company doesn't really have to do anything besides offering you a job. But,
it's not easy to move there without a job offer.

~~~
johansch
It is pretty easy to do get a job offer in our industry.

And employers know that the visa/work permit process is easy, quick (typically
a few weeks) and predictable, so there is a lot less bias against foreign
applicants than in e.g. the US.

~~~
_delirium
Yeah, I agree it's pretty easy if you want to move to Sweden to work at a tech
job. But I think it's a reasonable caveat; some people might want to move to
Sweden for other reasons, like starting a company or as a base of operations
for freelancing, and that's considerably harder.

IMO Scandinavia is actually a great place to be a freelancer, even for
foreigners, if you can build a modest network. High cost of living, but no
worry about health/benefits being tied to your job, very English-friendly, and
a _lot_ of part-time/freelance tech work that pays well. But it's very hard to
get the formalities sorted out for that, unless you first get an EU
citizenship or permanent residency via another route.

------
jere
Great video, but I'm wondering what's going on with this page. There is a
giant (700px tall) div with only white text (on a white background) and the
video all the way at the bottom.

~~~
danielsju6
If you look at the other pages there is a photograph that fills this space.
Just not loading on that page.

------
stefan_kendall3
Several people have commented about a "housing queue".

In much of the USA, we have a mechanism that matches the supply of goods and
the demand for those goods, such that there is never a shortage or surplus
without externalities.

Funny how you can't legislate away the laws of economics.

~~~
alkonaut
Sadly, you can't legislate away the fact that there are always people who have
less money. Last I checked, the possibility of getting a rent-controlled
apartment in NYC was about the same as it is in stockholm (where you could
argue that almost all apartments are rent-controlled).

Even with market rents (which will come sooner or later), you won't find an
apartment to rent because no one would build them (more profitable to build to
sell, plus there is barely any place to build left in the central city).

The law was recently changed so you can charge the true cost (including
interest rates) when subletting, meaning that there is now a market for
subletting apartments that uses market pricing more or less.

------
beerbajay
Good luck finding an apartment in Stockholm; you need 10 years in the housing
queue at least...

------
osivertsson
If you are serious about relocating to Sweden then Stockholm is not your only
choice. Other cities may provide even better quality of life depending on what
you like. At least also consider: * Göteborg * Linköping * Umeå

------
breitling
How about the language barrier? Is it realistic for an English speaking North
American to move to Sweden and work there? I presume Swedish will be their
primary language...

~~~
_delirium
In tech it should be fine. I know in the game industry, at least, they don't
care what other languages you speak, as long as you speak English. May or may
not be true at bigger companies, e.g. if you're in IT in a big mainly-Swedish
company.

Though if you want to work at a bigger company, you could try Denmark, where
my impression is that English workplaces are multiplying much faster. The
biggest private-sector employer, Maersk, a few years ago switched to an
officially all-English workplace, and this is becoming common. Their
motivation was that as a multinational logistics company, it's too troublesome
to have different languages involved: they want to have the flexibility to
assign someone from Hong Kong to a Copenhagen-hosted teleconference, or
forward them a document created in Copenhagen, so corporate policy is now that
_everything_ happens in English, except for a narrow range of things that
legally must be done in other languages.

------
dllthomas
I think people have just convinced themselves it's good 'cause they're stuck
there.

~~~
Dewie
That's a clever reference. :)

~~~
dllthomas
Thanks! Not sure if downvoters are missing it, or just feel that the humor is
too off topic (not entirely unreasonable).

~~~
KhalPanda
Care to explain, since I've thought about it for a few minutes and still don't
"get it"? :-)

~~~
Dewie
Stockholm Syndrome

~~~
KhalPanda
Ah. Now I feel stupid. Thanks!

------
Antiquarian
Cities are a consumer good.

------
Dewie
> The Capital of Scandinavia

A slogan invented by... Stockholm. :P

~~~
cgh
I wonder how the Norwegians feel about this.

~~~
vegardx
We have a love/hate-relationship, but speaking as a Norwegian, being honest
and not just wanting to stick it to those damn swedes, I think there is some
truth to it. I've always looked at both Stockholm and Copenhagen as more
cultured than Oslo. Compared to Oslo, both Stockholm and Copenhagen has a much
richer history.

It's sort of like a sibling relationship. Don't dare touch them, or you'll
feel the wrath of the other siblings, but internally, we all like to make fun
at the others expense. I recommend taking a look at the comic strip
Scandinavia and the World, it talks a lot about that, and is pretty funny. [1]

[1] [http://satwcomic.com/](http://satwcomic.com/)

~~~
Dewie
> Compared to Oslo, both Stockholm and Copenhagen has a much richer history.

Well Oslo as a _real_ capital is quite young after all, it has been kind of an
afterthought for a lot of its history. And you know who we have to thank for
that.

------
qwerta
There are many stories how local Social Services kidnap children of immigrants
without any chance for repeal. No evidence, just single accusation. I think I
will pass.

~~~
vegardx
I think this deserves a reply. First of all, the child welfare system is not
allowed to disclose why they take the children, so naturally you get a very
one sided view of all stories.

Scandinavian countries are culturally /very/ different from the rest of the
world. Child safety is not taken lightly, and physical abuse or risk of sexual
mutilation are typical things that they react on. Schools are obliged to
contact the child welfare system if there is any suspicion or any wrong doing.

I know the there are some pretty high profile cases with eastern european and
middle eastern children involved right now, which I'm sure you are referring
to. TL; DR: Don't hit your children. They will be taken away.

~~~
qwerta
The problem is not the first reaction of taking children away, I totally agree
with that.

Problem is to get children back after initial claims are not confirmed. They
ignore other family members (grandparents, spouse) and just keep piling up
excuses, i.e. you have to speak Swedish language.

