
Quantum Psychology & The Word "Is": Better Living Through Improved Diction - zackattack
http://www.zacharyburt.com/2010/07/quantum-psychology-the-word-is-better-living-through-improved-diction/
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sharpn
Interesting, but I'm not convinced the examples support the argument. English
uses 'is' to refer to a permanent characteristic _or_ a temporary state,
depending on context. Other languages have two separate words (e.g. Spanish
with 'estar' & 'es'). If the context is unclear, or you want to introduce
clarity, say 'John _is being_ grumpy' - rather than 'John is grumpy' - if you
want to convey that John's surly mood is temporary or uncharacteristic.
Avoiding the word 'is' often just makes communication needlessly long-winded.

Wave theory vs Particle theory is another matter - both are models that have
acknowledged drawbacks, neither 'is'.

I do agree with the meta-point that trained clarity of expression can induce
clarity of thought & is therefore worthwhile.

~~~
dalke
Even better, in reconstructed Proto-Indo-European there are several different
verbs which merged to become the conjugations of "to be" in English. That's
why the forms are so irregular. See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-
European_copula>

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tel
English-prime, of course, relates well to common scientific jargon. Things
never _are_ until you can say with precision and confidence that they _are_.
Instead they "might" or "may" and are always qualified by lists of
assumptions. Even the structure of scientific papers is carefully wrought so
that background and assumptions play an important role in the opening, then
methods, then uninterpreted results, then beliefs and interpretations in order
of increasing scope (and decreasing likelihood).

It's amazingly tiresome, but it's a culture designed to — used properly —
prevent you from thinking yourself into a corner or over-stretching your
evidence. I wouldn't be surprised if it also inspired creativity and
diminished functional fixedness as well.

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davnola
Recovering philosopher here.

> Philosophical arguments about objects in “reality” having a certain
> metaphysical essence are somewhat dubious. Does wood really have a wood-
> ness? (No, but certain types of wood have certain properties, especially
> when examined through human instruments.)

I don't think anyone right now (in anglophone analytical philosophy) conflates
predication with identity.

But there is an interesting and far-reaching debate about so-called natural
kinds (typically water, gold etc.). In fact a widespread view is that, after
Saul Kripke and Hilary Putnam, water does indeed have an essential wateriness
beyond its surface characteristics. This has interesting consequences in
philosophy of language and philosophy of mind
(<http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/natural-kinds>).

> Do I really have a fundamental me-ness? (No, my behavior and personalities
> are situation-dependent and have little to do with Zachary Burt the human
> being.)

I've never met you, but I'm sure that your behaviour and personality has
_something_ to do with you the human-being. Doesn't your body behave?!

You may also be interested to know that many people have very different
intuitions from yours. One in particular from John Perry, is roughly that
first-person indexicals cannot be parsed out in terms of other descrptions
(the essential indexical).

> Indeed, any description of something has to be argued in such a way that it
> can be understood or articulated through the faculties of the Homo sapiens.

In what way are descriptions argued?

~~~
ThomPete
"But there is an interesting and far-reaching debate about so-called natural
kinds (typically water, gold etc.). In fact a widespread view is that, after
Saul Kripke and Hilary Putnam, water does indeed have an essential wateriness
beyond its surface characteristics. This has interesting consequences in
philosophy of language and philosophy of mind "

I have a hard time understanding what this characteristic would be that isn't
emerging from our interpretation of reality rather than reality as such.

Or am I missing something?

~~~
davnola
I don't know, maybe you're having a deep insight!

Roughly speaking, the idea is that water in our universe is essentially H2O.
The intuition is that if we went to another universe where there was watery
stuff that duck-typed as water but had underlying composition XYZ, it would
not be water.

Doesn't sound too controversial, but has interesting implications (e.g. it's
an a posteriori necessity!). And there's also some interesting and powerful
explications of "our universe" and "another universe" to do with the nature of
counterfactuals.

For an alternative take, see Dupré, John. (1995). The Disorder of Things.
Harvard University Press. Introduces the delightful notion of "promiscuous
realism"!

~~~
ThomPete
But water is simply interpretation of phenomena in a specific context. Even on
a compositional level.

H2o have more fundamental properties, that again themselves are
interpretations.

Unless you find out a way to be certain about your fundamentals. And that I am
not sure you can.

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ThomPete
Ah the beauty of making up concepts.

Quantum is a word that get's used a lot. So now we also have quantum
psychology.

And from that an entire literary category will be established. Without
substance, without actually being based on any hardcore facts, but with plenty
of storytelling.

Easy to fool the human mind is.

~~~
zackattack
I interpreted your comment as "Quantum psychology sounds like bullshit,
because I've never heard of it and I can't conceive of a way for quantum
mechanics to relate to psychology." This may be a poor interpretation as that
may not be what you meant. Can you please help me understand, Yoda? Also, if
you disagreed with any of the explicit points, please elaborate instead of
engaging in evasive platitude-laced rhetoric.

P.S. All concepts are necessarily invented. If you disagree (perhaps you
subscribe to Plato's theory of "forms"?) then your perspective will be
challenged if you read the post. (shortcut for the lazy: ctrl/cmd-f, "Does
wood really have a wood-ness")

~~~
ThomPete
Although no quantum physicist by any stretch, I have read enough to know that
you can't just throw a word like quantum psychology around.

The question is not whether I have heard of it but whether such a breakthrough
discovery has been made that we can talk about Quantum Psychology.

Let me remind you that with regards to quantum mechanics there are three areas
that need to be covered.

The mathematical part (which is relatively easy and proven) The experimental
part (which is also proven (Bells theorem)) And the philosophical part (i.e.
what does this all mean)

The latter is by no measurement proven or done with yet.

There are several competing interpretations from the Copenhagen interpretation
to M-Theory/Many Worlds/Minds theory.

None of them have successfully been able to create a consistent theory that
embed both the classical local world view and the quantum mechanical world
non-local world view.

So excuse me for not just jumping on the wagon of a cool sounding theory but
fundamentally unsupported theory from a non physicist.

But you where right in your interpretation of what I said. Quantum Psychology
does sound like bullshit. Not because I haven't heard of it but because there
is no basis to claim it on. There might be with time who knows, but right now,
you will be hard pressed to find any well respected physicists who would
support such a concept.

~~~
zackattack
_Quantum Psychology_ discusses all of this, from Copenhagenism to the Many-
worlds interpretation. The point is by calling "Quantum Psychology" bullshit,
you're engaging in the same sort of fallacious rhetoric that my post cautions
against. Again, I ask you - what, specifically, disturbed you?

~~~
ThomPete
There are many books that discusses "all of this" it doesn't really matter.

What matters is evidence. And there is no evidence what so ever so far that
quantum mechanics affect our brains whether you call it the quantum mind or
whatever clever word you might find.

You can't solve this by creating a field called quantum psychology and then
work your way backwards. It's not that kind of intellectual challenge.

The problems are much more fundamental. Had the author been an actual
physicist he would have known that.

So no I am not engaging in any fallacious rhetoric.

I don't even have to disagree with some of what you say in that post to still
be dismissive about the term Quantum Psychology and Wilson's attempt to claim
certainty where none exist at all, pseudoscience at it's worst.

~~~
zackattack
Wilson doesn't claim any certainty about some "Quantum Psychology". You're
projecting, constructing a STRAW MAN and tearing him down. If you want to cite
something specific, then do so, otherwise, please stop talking. I've enjoyed
your other comments, especially about physics, but in this specific case you
really don't know what you're talking about. You're engaging in a lame status
transaction without being able to back it up with any concrete terms. Good
social tactics but really lame for any sort of intellectual discussion.

~~~
ThomPete
That's not what I meant by certainty. But I can see it might be unclear.

Seriously though. And I am not trying to be contrarian.

Can you please explain to me how this

 _In examples 7 and 8, Standard English again assumes indwelling spooks and
continues to separate observer and observed; English Prime assumes no spooks
and reminds us of QUIP (the QUantum Inseparability Principle, so named by Dr.
Nick Herbert), namely, the impossibility of existentially separating observer
and observed._

<http://www.rawilson.com/quantum.html>

Isn't complete pseudo talk.

And

Nick Herbert

QUIM

"The Quantum Intimacy Machine" <http://quantumtantra.com/quim.html>

Another great quantum product?

I mean I am a monist, I don't believe you can separate the observer and the
observed. But QUIP and QUIM?

Have you tried to look up QUIP? Did you see how many of those new uses of
quantum exist. Quantum Tantra?!? I mean really?

You want me to take that stuff serious?

And when you finally get to something that actually mentions QUIP and is not
some new age rambling (and I say that as one who actually believe some new
agers know what they are talking about), what I get is by no metrics
comparable to eprime.

They discuss two completely unrelated things. Semantics and QM are NOT
related.

That is what I have problems with.

~~~
zackattack
I think RAW's point is that the principles of QM provide support for a
philosophical viewpoint that can be practiced through adjusted semantics.

As far as the QUIM, I would like to see some data before making a judgment. I
don't have sufficient understanding of the related physics to make theoretical
conjectures about its plausibility (or absurdity).

~~~
ThomPete
And that is exactly where he streches it too far. There is no support for
that. Non zero nada nilsch. He just takes one semantic interpretation and
applies it to another. But qm isn't about semantics. Our interpretation isn't
qm, qm is mathematical and experimental. Every interpretation we choose to put
on top, only relates to what happens in the qm world and that is by no metrics
what happens in the physical, let alone semantic world.

It's simply pseudo science.

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mkramlich
I've noted in my personal experiences interacting with people at work that the
best engineers tended to speak in English Prime a lot -- at least when
something important was at stake, such as troubleshooting some problem with a
piece of software used by the business.

------
Diogenes
Good ol' Mr. Hedley in 7th Grade English class refused to let any of us use
the following words the entire year: am, is, are, was, were, be, been. Any
paper turned in that contained one of those had to be re-written. My English,
and clarity of thought, improved more that year than during any other
equivalent span in my life.

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kd5bjo
The examples seem misleading. You not only change the verb, you're adding a
prepositional phrase to clarify things.

The originals would be almost as insightful if you added the prepositional
phrase and left the verb alone. Conversely, changing the verb without adding
the prepositions doesn't actually clarify much.

------
est
See also

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clause_(logic)>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_(grammar)>

------
mkramlich
Anyone that's ever read the most awesome Illuminatus! trilogy will know that
Robert Anton Wilson is most definitely a fan of mind hacks. _Fnord._

