
The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee - davidw
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_resigns_from_the
======
kqr2
For people who are unfamiliar with all the acronyms:

ASF : Apache Software Foundation

EC : Executive Committee

EE : Enterprise Edition

JCP : Java Community Process

JSR : Java Specification Request

JSPA : Java Specification Participation Agreement

SE : Standard Edition

TCK : Test Compatibility Kit

~~~
angrycoder
That helps, but can someone provide a babblefish translation of what this
means for those of us who don't live in the Java world? Is it basically...

Dear Java,

We remember when you used to be cool. Now you spend all of your time drinking
and hanging out with lawyers. We are leaving and taking the dog and all of the
CDs with us.

Love, Apache

~~~
lenni
I believe that is basically it. They won't be participating in writing
specifications, but I don't think that anyone will be stopping Apache (or
anyone else) from implementing any of the JSRs.

If a hypothetical Java Servlet API v4.0 would be released they could still
make Tomcat be compliant with it.

On the other hand Tomcat is _very_ widely used in the not-quite-huge-
enterprise companies and it is obviously helpful for a spec if all
implementers can agree on some common ground before it is written. ECMA
probably wouldn't see a point in doing ES5 if Microsoft and Mozilla would not
talk to them.

~~~
yesno
It might be a matter of time before Oracle decided to cut all of the oxygen
lines for these open source solutions judging from Ellison's comment about
RedHat business models.

What do you think would happen in order for a library to be certified (passed
a certain TCK) would require to pay Oracle a huge amount of money?

Oracle can get more money from IBM, RedHat, SpringSource (SS uses a modified
Tomcat for their tcServer) and a slew bunch of other companies.

Whether they'll do it or not, I don't know.

------
nl
For people confused about the impact of this:

Having Apache on the EC (Executive Committee) strengthened Java by giving an
_official_ voice to the (large) open source Java community. This was useful
for Java because Apache often agitated to make sure specifications were
licensed under terms that are compatible with open source implementations.
Open Source implementations have kept Java competitive with .NET in terms of
price, and many specifications have grown out of open source Java projects.

The Eclipse organisation remains on the EC, so Oracle can point to them as a
voice for open source. However, Eclipse is different to Apache in that it is
primarily a pay-to-play organisation, whilst Apache is a meritocracy.

In terms of specifications themselves (JSRs), Apache will no longer
automatically have a representative. Individual experts can still be invited,
but Apache's withdrawal (as well as that of people like Doug Lea & Bob Lee)
makes it less likely experts will want to serve on a JSR committee.

~~~
brown9-2
_However, Eclipse is different to Apache in that it is primarily a pay-to-play
organisation_

This isn't related to the discussion at hand, but can you elaborate on this?

~~~
glenno
The Apache Foundation board was initially made up of people involved in
creating Apache software, and membership is expanded through election by the
existing board.

The Eclipse Foundation board is mainly representatives from companies who have
paid the substantial "strategic member" fee.

------
abp
First: _Further, the project communities of the ASF, home to Apache Tomcat,
Ant, Xerces, Geronimo, Velocity and nearly a 100 mainstay java components have
implemented countless JSRs and serve on and contribute to many of the JCPs
technical expert groups._

And then:

 _To that end, our representative has informed the JCP's Program Management
Office of our resignation, effective immediately. As such, the ASF is removing
all official representatives from any and all JSRs. In addition, we will
refuse any renewal of our JCP membership and, of course, our EC position._

Holy crap! That just sounds like Java is really bleeding now. Anyone knows how
significant the real impact of leaving representatives on the JSRs is?

~~~
lapusta
Not really. JSRs have never been leading the innovation in Java world: Ant,
Maven, Velocity, Spring, Hibernate, Grails, Hadoop, GWT, Android, Struts,
Wicket, Eclipse - none of them started as a JSR.

The only JSR that matter is JavaSE and I don't see it having technical
problems. JavaME is dying and Spring showed JavaEE how things should be done
so they are catching up now.

~~~
crux_
A counterpoint: On the technical front, I see JavaSE/the JRE falling
hopelessly behind C# and the CLR -- fear of Microsoft and distrust of Mono
have kept the playing field a bit closer to being level, but I don't see
Oracle as an organization that can really take advantage of that.

~~~
dkarl
_fear of Microsoft and distrust of Mono have kept the playing field a bit
closer to being level, but I don't see Oracle as an organization that can
really take advantage of that_

Honestly, as someone who has no interest in Microsoft technologies and
distrusts Mono, but who likes the idea of a batteries-included, CTO-friendly,
cross-platform, JIT-compiling VM with a huge userbase and oodles of libraries,
I am feeling a little lost now. Not that Java is going to die quickly -- I'm
still learning Scala and expect that to be a good investment for a few years
to come -- but it's starting to look like Java is a platform with a lot less
future than I expected.

~~~
kls
_I'm still learning Scala and expect that to be a good investment for a few
years to come_

First let me disclaimer that this is totally my perspective on the subject but
as a decision maker in a company that is now looking to move on and believes
that this is the fatal shot to Java, I wanted to say that for us we feel that
with the JVM shenanigans that any technology that runs on the JVM is in danger
of Oracle's legal reach. After kicking this one around a lot among our peers
we are hopeful that a language that run on the LLVM makes it to the forefront
as a replacement.

~~~
dkarl
It will be many years before a new platform can match the libraries available
on the JVM. Such a loss :-(

~~~
kls
Yep needless to say, I am pretty concerned right now. I think the irony of the
whole situation is that much of the community expected this from Mono.

------
bad_user

         The Apache Software Foundation concludes that that JCP is not an open
         specification process - that Java specifications are proprietary technology
         that must be licensed directly from the spec lead under whatever terms the
         spec lead chooses
    

So much for Java being an open standard.

------
abhikshah
I always thought it was odd that ASF, one of the early open-source successes,
was so heavily Java which has always been semi-open at best. Stuff like this
lends more credence to the ideological purity of the GNU guys..

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adamc
Given the conclusion (that JCP is not an open specification process), I wonder
whether they will move away from implementing JCP specs, and towards other
technologies.

Huge loss for the JCP either way.

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timtadh
My, perhaps naive, question is: will there now be a bifurcation of the Java
community? Specifically, will there be an open community with its own
standards and implementations, and the Oracle community with theirs.

~~~
davidw
The problem seems to be that you can't simply just go implement something
independently and call it, say, "Dalvik", rather than Java, and avoid Oracle's
lawyers, due to patents.

~~~
grav1tas
Then how difficult would it be to create a new Java that has the features
(syntactical and whatever else) that everybody's been clamoring for and
calling it a different name? C# basically did that, and it's still around....

~~~
davidw
That's exactly what I said. You can't just give it a different name and do a
clean-room implementation, because it _still_ likely violates some patents.

~~~
Swannie
And the patents is where the problems lie. Which is the problem with not being
able to pass the TCK - no access to the patent pool.

How does the MS CLR get around this issue? Surely their VM is infringing on
some of this pool? Do they now licence from Oracle?

If only it WAS this simple... this hypothetical situation would be awesome!

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mark_l_watson
I am firmly supportive of ASF. I was unhappy with Sun for witholding the TCK,
and I am now unhappy with Oracle. Major languages should have multiple high
quality implementations. I understand the business issues but something like
Java needs to have at least one foot firmly in the 'commons.'

------
bobbyi
Is Google going to follow suit? They were the other ones to vote against Java
SE 7 on the same grounds and seem to share Apache's concerns.

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ebtalley
Uninformed question: How does this affect Apache projects and their further
development?

------
roman-m
Oracle shooting them selfs in the head. The open unrestricted competition in
Java world moved that comunity since the begining and everybody got profit
from that. The tools were improved and preselected by the user experience
only. It was a win win. If your product was not good enough you got the
valuable information: that you should to improve yourself. That is the basic
foundation of capitalism: don't concentrate on your competitors but on your
own products. Now Oracle is trying to block that open market of ideas. They
will be the first to get hurt.

“The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.”
(Ayn Rand)

------
mbyrne
As pro-FOSS CTO with a JIT-compiling VM userbase, the ASF exit from JCP EC
makes it CYA time for us with the FOU restrictions in the TCK and JDK 7/8.
Agreed?

~~~
SeanDav
AMEABFTMA (Aaargh my eyes are bleeding from too many acronyms)

------
russellperry
Java by itself as a commercial entity is not extremely valuable. Not really
having any clue how to get an ROI out of Java, Oracle like Sun before them is
simply hedging their bets that owning/controlling Java IP (of any stripe) may
in the future provide commercial returns or business leverage when a Java-
based app or framework succeeds (see: the Android lawsuit, the MSVM lawsuit 10
years ago). I guess it's the only logical approach for a company that
otherwise has no clue how to monetize a technology as widespread as Java.

Seriously, what did we actually think Oracle was going to do with Java? Get
all open and community-minded and crap?

~~~
wmf
Oracle (or IBM) is profitable enough that they don't _have_ to monetize Java
at all.

~~~
mbreese
But then they wouldn't be Oracle...

------
tlrobinson
So what does this actually mean for Java and ASF?

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yewweitan
As commentors have mentioned, you can't simply roll-your-own-Java without
being at risk of a legal battle.

Zooming out. What are the biggest technologies being affected by this, and
what are the alternatives available to the creators and developers of those
technologies?

Would we end up in a situation where someone like Google would have to revamp
their entire Android runtime?

~~~
theBobMcCormick
I'm not sure that revamping would help. Android isn't a JVM, it's already it's
own, independently designed and built virtual machine, and yet they're still
getting sued by Oracle.

~~~
sigzero
I think you need to re-read the lawsuit.

~~~
technomancy
The claims in the lawsuit would apply to any modern virtual machine.

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ChristianMarks
The acquisition of Java by the intellectual monopolist Oracle is good for
programming, because Oracle's rent seeking will discourage programmers from
using Java. There are far better languages that have more versatile typing
operations than mere subclassing.

------
DjDarkman
I don't think this was wise of Oracle. They only seem to view Java as an asset
they can make money of. But I don't think it's wise to turn the tide against
them for a few cents.

------
tamersalama
Maybe Oracle's doing the right thing for Java afterall. Assuming Ownership.

------
xentronium
Is their blog down?

~~~
davidw
Yeah:

"So much traffic/interest in the ASF leaving the JCP that blogs.apache.org is
wonky. Oh yeah, it's Java. #JCPIsDead"

<http://twitter.com/#!/jimjag/status/12939142254034944>

~~~
brown9-2
I had to do a bit of searching to figure this out, but that twitter quote is
from the President of the ASF - interesting.

