

Ask HN: Startup life: Working hard to enrich other people? - throwaway7789

It has sort of dawned on me that working as a non-founding employee in a startup is like working hard to enrich other people (the founders, some investors, etc).<p>In a big company, things are a bit more "spread out". It's very unlikely that your work may catapult your big company into stratospheric valuation levels. At most, you will help improve the product line and increase profits, which are enjoyed by all employees via stock options.<p>In a startup, the work of some key employees may make the difference between a viable/successful product and a failed product, and in turn may make the difference between a huge exit and complete failure.<p>The thing is, though, that those key employees are unlikely to see much of a return on their hard work. From all the horror stories we have been reading about on HN lately (about preferred stock, etc) there are many ways in which employees end up with a pittance. The people who end up with the most money are the investors, the founders and maybe some high-level executives that were brought in.<p>It seems very demotivating to me to think that my work is basically just a pursuit of making other people rich.<p>Big company life may not be as 'exciting' as startup life, but it seems more motivating to do your share and get your share in return.<p>Even in big companies, I can see that executives make far more when the stock goes up than regular employees, but it's not like those executives will make zero without you. You are a small piece of the big picture and are rewarded accordingly (with a good salary, usually great benefits, and stock options). In a startup you could be a big piece of the puzzle and still not make much, even if your contributions result in others making millions instead of zero.<p>Of course, a lot of people are in it for more than just the money, but still when I recently saw all those higher-ups together and realized that my team and I are working hard to essentially enrich others, it has been very demotivating.<p>What do you guys think?
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paulhauggis
"It has sort of dawned on me that working as a non-founding employee in a
startup is like working hard to enrich other people (the founders, some
investors, etc)."

Exactly my thoughts. You put as much effort as a founder with a payout many
times less. You even might get shown the door when it gets bought out.

This is why I won't ever work for a startup..unless it's my own.

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coryl
So you're just dismissing all the things you could learn in an early stage
startup?

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paulhauggis
"So you're just dismissing all the things you could learn in an early stage
startup?"

If you want to break your back for little to no payout and high risk, go for
it. However, I feel you can learn just as much if you own your own startup and
the risk/reward ratio is much better.

~~~
AznHisoka
I agree. You can learn just as much doing it all by yourself.. and even more.
Even in a startup, you're shielded from other areas like marketing or business
development.

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paulhauggis
Very true. I worked for a startup before and although I did get some
experience out of it, I was there to do my one job, which was development. I
didn't really learn much about the business because I wasn't given the
opportunity.

I learned more in 4 months running my own startup and it feels more rewarding
to me..even if I fail.

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nhangen
This is why I found my own companies instead of joining startups. I don't mind
financial or business risk, but I do mind risking my time on behalf of someone
else.

I think it's reasonable for a startup founder to get rich off of the efforts
of employees, provided he treats them well and offers pay comparable to the
amount of work expected.

However, if an employee is supposed to work 60+ hour weeks because "we're in a
startup," then I have a serious problem.

Given I have 60/hours a week to work, I can work at big company for 40 of them
(same salary) and spend 20 on my own business.

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hugo31370
Here's the perspective of a founder who has worked for big companies. I don't
like the "Us vs Them" logic applied to startups - whether it's employees vs
founders or founders vs VCs. Everyone is trying to make money and the reason
why the upside is bigger for some is the same as in any other business -
because they take more risk.

The founders should get the biggest upside, then investors (and among those
the early investors more), then early employees, then all other employees. The
founders risk their reputation, personal life, money and often friends' money
to start a company. Investors put their money at risk at a stage when it's not
clear if the company is going to succeed. And early employees put a bet on a
company that can be gone in less than a year.

If you're not an early employee, you shouldn't bear with any corporate risk,
which means that you should earn your market salary, no discounts. Because of
that, the equity share can't be high because you're not really taking much
risk.

Some people are more aggressive taking risks then others and that's why the
market works

You say "why enrich other people?". Well, everyone is enriching someone else.
If you own resources so valuable that others are willing to pay lots of money
for, someone will make you rich. Find a way to make yourself indispensable, as
a founder, investor or employee, and someone will make you rich.

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steventruong
I don't think that's the right way to look at it. You doing your work isn't
about just making someone else rich. It's about doing your job and hopefully
doing something you enjoy or love. Building something you believe in, working
with people you enjoy being around, and getting paid an amount you're happy
with, among other things.

It shouldn't matter whether or not your work is making someone else richer or
not. Just because you believe in a corporate environment it has less influence
than a startup doesn't change the equation. You're there to do a job and paid
to do just that. If you don't enjoy your work, don't feel you're getting paid
what you're worth, or feel dissatisfied in any other way, find another job,
start your own company, or do something that will make you happy about what
you do and how much you earn.

The fact that someone is successful base on you doing your job should never be
a reason to be demotivated, especially if you did the exact same job in a big
company or elsewhere and don't feel the same way. It's like getting jealous
over someone elses' success rather than focusing on your own success, whatever
that means to you. I would suggest finding your own happiness, and pursuing
that, rather than focus on things that don't matter.

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throwaway7789
> The fact that someone is successful base on you doing your job should never
> be a reason to be demotivated, especially if you did the exact same job in a
> big company or elsewhere and don't feel the same way.

In theory, what you say is correct. In practice, when you're face-to-face with
these people, chatting and munching on crackers at the holiday party, and you
know that you are working hard to make that guy right in front of you rich, it
starts to be disconcerting.

Sometimes, even if we are OK doing job X for $Y, we can stop being OK with it
if new facts emerge. There is an interesting study with monkeys
(<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3116678.stm>) where monkeys who
would otherwise be OK with completing a task if the reward was a cucumber, got
angry and refused to complete the task when they saw other monkeys getting a
grape (a better treat for monkeys) for the same task.

Yes, rationally, if you are happy doing job X for $Y, what others get out of
your work should not matter, but sometimes our primitive brain objects.

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steventruong
Agreed, however, I think that just means either adjust your mindset or as I
originally proposed, find what makes you happy. At the end of the day, there's
no good reason to continue doing something that makes you unhappy, especially
if you have options.

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jpulgarin
Even as a startup founder you are working to enrich other people: venture
capitalists. VCs are able to diversify themselves by investing in multiple
startups, knowing that most of them will fail, but that 1 or 2 will make the
investments worth it. For the average startup founder the expected utility of
founding a startup is negative dollars.

