
Psilocybin for major depression granted Breakthrough Therapy by FDA - elorant
https://newatlas.com/science/psilocybin-major-depression-mdd-usona-breakthrough-therapy-fda/
======
brenden2
I've been reading a book called "How to Change Your Mind"[1] which contains a
collection of history, anecdotes, trip reports, and some of the science behind
these types of drugs. The book mostly discusses psilocybin and LSD, but it
also touches on some of the other related drugs. If you're curious and want to
learn more, it's worth a read.

The one thing I'll say is that it seems like these drugs affect the brain in a
way that's more akin to a super-placebo, rather than being therapeutic on
their own. In other words, you would need to use the drugs in combination with
therapy to obtain good results.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Change_Your_Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Change_Your_Mind)

~~~
WhompingWindows
Super placebo is a scientifically incorrect description. These drugs suppress
activity of the default mode network of the brain, which is a sort of
"conductor" of the brain, which chooses which "instruments" to prioritize and
how to allocate the train of thought. All of the different parts of your mind
are able to sing out more creatively and independently, forging new paths that
they are not accustomed to taking -- this is why it's great for mental
illnesses like depression, anxiety, alcoholism, smoking -- it allows your mind
an incredible flexibility.

In my personal experiences with psychedelics, these drugs remove mental
heuristics, allowing the mind to think unimpeded by usual thought patterns,
simply accepting raw data as it comes in. This was striking in sensory
information, if you closed your eyes or just stared at something long enough,
you observed incredibly different visual input, geometric patterns, greatly
strengthened colors (a strawberry was INCREDIBLY beautiful, I almost felt bad
eating such a beautiful entity). There was also an incredible inter-
disciplinary thought process, I felt the musical, mathematical, computational,
logical, natural, all these parts of my mind mixed together wonderfully.

LSD was much longer lasting, around 12 hours, whereas psilocybin was around 6
hours. Psilocybin enhanced my connection with nature, the flying bugs, a
handful of berries, and the plants all around me caused an effusion of love
and connection. Whereas with LSD, I felt an extremely powerful visual
stimulation, the changing fall leaves were extremely vibrant and beautiful, it
was akin to 12 hour, mentally-clear cannabis high. I didn't experience any
"flashbacks" per se, there was a positive glow in my mood and thoughts for
around 5 days, and the day after LSD I still had lingering effects...I also
wonder if I will evermore look at the surface of ponds and lakes differently,
they have an incredible dynamism and vitality that I appreciated even more on
first trip.

For anyone considering psychedelics, do it thoughtfully and methodically. Read
the book mentioned in the parent, practice meditation, explore your mind, and
really ensure your mindset ("set") is positive and open. Further, plan to
occupy a peaceful, quiet place, hopefully lacking too many strangers/social
interaction ("setting"). If set and setting are good, you're in for a
wonderful time.

~~~
moretai
Is there a way to induce this feeling without the aid of psychedelics or
breathwork?

~~~
surfsvammel
Meditation is said to be able to give similar experiences. But of course
require a lot more work.

~~~
throwaway34241
Some years ago I wanted to give it a shot so I tried one of those meditation
exercises, where the goal is to have your mind calm to the point of not having
any conscious thoughts and only experiencing sensations. Was stubborn about it
and did it for maybe 3? hours continuously until I actually started having
some success.

I can definitely report reaching an altered-state experience afterward that
mirrors some of the things described here. The intensity of everything was
dialed way, way up, in a way I had kind of forgotten was possible but I'm
pretty sure I experienced as a kid. I don't think there's a way to put it in
words that's comparable to experiencing it but it was not a subtle effect at
all.

Abstractly, say everything has an "interestingness" value, and certain things
would be near the top like a great movie or book. It was like there was a dial
for this value that just scaled everything, and it was dialed up high enough
where just the way light & shadow interacted on some things was as interesting
as a great movie. Everything was super interesting. Kind of like a reverse
burnout state, where maybe nothing is interesting. The effect lasted the rest
of the day.

Anyway it wasn't easy at all to get in that state and I don't think I made a
serious effort again. But I'd definitely recommend giving it a shot to anyone
who's curious. It wasn't like there was any complex technique, it was
basically just close your eyes, focus attention on breath and let go of all
conscious thoughts. Personally the last part was the hard part.

I wonder if it gets easier with time so you can reach that state in 30 min or
something instead of struggling hard for 3 hours. If that's the case maybe I
should try seriously practicing it since having control of that dial would be
pretty useful.

------
givinguflac
While this is a great step forward, it's still going to take years for this to
be even remotely accessible. I've been in therapy and taking various
medications for years and haven't found anything that really works, at least
for more than a brief period.

Don't forget esketamine was also granted breakthrough treatment status
recently, but I have yet to find a doctor willing to try it because it's "so
new". On top of that, it's still outrageously expensive even with insurance,
if insurance will even cover it at all because it's "so new" and I haven't yet
exhausted every compound that's ever existed. Sigh.

~~~
tempsy
Not to be facetious but why is the legal status of these drugs preventing you
from trying them?

Ketamine, LSD, shrooms are all accessible, and recreational varieties are not
expensive.

~~~
astura
This is a ridiculous question, the answer is because they are illegal, of
course.

Most of us aren't willing to risk a criminal record.

I wouldn't know where I could obtain such items even if I wanted to buy them.
If I can't buy something off the shelf at a retail store I'm simply not going
to bother.

Sketchy/unknown supply chain.

Tons of us have jobs (or whole careers!) that we could lose for using illegal
drugs, many of those jobs include random drug tests. I'm not risking my entire
fucking livelihood without a damn good reason.

~~~
tempsy
Hardly ridiculous. Marijuana is still illegal at the federal level but might
as well be considered legal at this point.

No one is going to go to jail because you purchased a small amount of drugs.
If you are the seller it's a different story.

~~~
givinguflac
I’ve been to jail for a small amount of MJ. The chain of custody and the
purity/contamination of a plant is much easier to track, then something like a
powder a pill or liquid. There is literally no circumstance where I would
trust something that wasn’t a plant on the black market

~~~
throwaway837373
Ehrlich's reagent will tell you if you have something in at least the same
chemical family as LSD, which rules out almost all of the dangerous substances
that are sometimes sold as "LSD."

------
carapace
Set and setting.

I believe it's important to realize that the "magic" is not in the mushroom.

> "Of course, the drug dose does not produce the transcendent experience. It
> merely acts as a chemical key — it opens the mind, frees the nervous system
> of its ordinary patterns and structures. The nature of the experience
> depends almost entirely on set and setting. Set denotes the preparation of
> the individual, including his personality structure and his mood at the
> time. Setting is physical — the weather, the room's atmosphere; social —
> feelings of persons present towards one another; and cultural — prevailing
> views as to what is real. It is for this reason that manuals or guide-books
> are necessary. Their purpose is to enable a person to understand the new
> realities of the expanded consciousness, to serve as road maps for new
> interior territories which modern science has made accessible."

~ Timothy Leary, The Psychedelic Experience: A Manual Based on the Tibetan
Book of the Dead

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting)

Drugs like LSD and psilocybin are the chemical equivalent of banging on the
side of the box to make the TV work.

With proper _set and setting_ you can get profound effects from e.g. a sweat
lodge, or even just hyperventilation (I'm referring to Leonard Orr's
Rebirthing breathwork. I would normally link to the wikipedia article on it
but that's been defaced by capital-S Skeptics and reduced to a note crapping
on the whole thing as "discredited". My dad actually worked for Leonard Orr
for a bit and what he was doing was pretty profound whatever it was.)

On the one hand, it's great that the vindictive hysteria around psychedelic
drugs is calming down, on the other hand I wish the scientific establishment
had a little more epistemological sophistication when it came to investigating
the inner world.

To sum up, the cure is not in the pill, it's in the set and setting. The pill
just gives you an excuse. You can also use e.g. hypnosis, prayer, drumming,
dancing, sweat lodges, or weird breathing, to effect the change you want, just
to name a small sampling of the available modalities.

~~~
funkjunky
It's amazing how strongly people can have an opinion about something they have
clue what they're talking about.

[https://www.pnas.org/content/113/17/4853](https://www.pnas.org/content/113/17/4853)

Synopsis: no, actually the drug has a pretty powerful impact on your brain and
is the main driver of the effect

~~~
carapace
First, thank you! That paper is awesome, actual Scottish science. Cheers!

Second, I would never begin to deny that "the drug has a pretty powerful
impact on your brain", because that would be stupid.

Third which "effect"? Your linked study "sought to investigate the acute brain
effects of LSD in healthy volunteers", we're discussing psilocybin for major
depression. So... what's up doc?

What I'm saying is that getting high is not the best available therapy for
depression.

~~~
funkjunky
First of all, whether "getting high", as you put it, is or is not the best
"available" therapy for depression is debatable, and not known at this time.
Ketamine has definitely shown to be much more effective against certain kinds
of depression than therapy, and much quicker acting, and I wouldn't doubt that
psilocybin might also be.

But more to the point, you were asserting that the effects of the drugs were
secondary to the therapy associated with them, to which I strongly disagree
with. The action of the drug itself is main driver of its therapeutic
potential, specifically that of "breaking" normal heuristic patterns of
activity, suppressing others, and allowing more inter-region connections and
plasticity to flourish where non existed before. Most people can't do that
very easily, if at all , with just therapy, meditation, diet, and exercise or
whatever. However, I -CAN- do that, quite easily and without effort, without
the guidance of a therapist or anything else, by simply eating some mushrooms
and letting them do their thing.

------
Mortiffer
Here's the actual trial
[https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866174](https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866174)

------
mikestaub
Peter Thiel is behind this, which is both good and bad.
[https://qz.com/1454785/a-millionaire-couple-is-
threatening-t...](https://qz.com/1454785/a-millionaire-couple-is-threatening-
to-create-a-magic-mushroom-monopoly/)

~~~
apqwer
I think it is good, he is a libertarian and providing freedom of choice is an
ideal he would try to push for.

~~~
found_the_vegan
Not according to that article. Sounds like he is using a charity to backdoor
fund his own private investments in to the research.

> “From generations of practitioners and researchers before us, we have
> received knowledge about these substances, their risks, and ways to use them
> constructively,” reads the statement. “In turn, we accept the call to use
> that knowledge for the common good and to share freely whatever related
> knowledge we may discover or develop.”

> It has been signed by 104 individual scientists, scholars, and
> practitioners, 21 research and service organizations, including MAPS,
> Heffter, Usona, and 12 psychedelic societies and integration circles.
> Compass has not signed.

Given Thiel's track record I think it's not very likely he is doing this for a
"freedom of choice" but more as "Opportunity to get richer".

------
will_pseudonym
As someone who has treatment-resistant major depression and who uses comedy as
a survival mechanism, and is greatly looking forward to being able to try this
treatment out, I hope you'll permit me to share this humorous thought I had
after reading this article:

"Ask your doctor if tripping your nuts off is right for you."

~~~
qwtel
I’d say that’s a pretty good joke. In fact, I had trouble keeping it together
reading this in public.

~~~
will_pseudonym
Thanks for sharing that, mate. Causing someone to involuntarily laugh in
public is one of my favorite things.

------
ericsoderstrom
> The Usona Phase 2 trial plans to enrol 80 subjects, randomized to receive
> either a single active dose of psilocybin or an active placebo containing
> niacin.

Blind testing in this case seems silly. It’ll be obvious to both patient and
doctor pretty quickly who got the high dose psychedelic and who got placebo

~~~
vikramkr
Always good to make sure, especially in psychology where placebo effects can
be really really strong, especially if you're talking about microdosing
psiliocybin. There's no reason not to be scientifically thorough and make sure
you have a good control group to compare against

------
mirimir
I wonder what doses they're using.

During my 20s-30s, I tripped with about 0.5 mg LSD more or less once month. It
at least kept bipolar depression at bay.

But now I use lamotrigine/modafinil. Which is less fun, but also more
effective and less disruptive.

~~~
jackschultz
What's your experience with Lamotrigine? Don't know if this is the right place
to ask, but I take that for anti-seizure and I'm wondering if that affects my
thoughts and feelings in a different way because it's used for a case like
your mentioned bipolar depression.

~~~
bduerst
I have taken gabapentin (which is similar) but for visual snow. While I'm not
diagnosed as bipolar, I have noticed that gabapentin does level out your
emotions some. I've considered trying lamotrigine but have been scared of the
allergic reactions it can cause. Gabapentin may work as an alternative.

~~~
jackschultz
I didn't have that side effect on Lamotrigine. That was my 4th drug for no
seizures. I'm on 300mg/day with it. Was at 400mg, but if I take too much I get
hit with something I'd call total body dull pain where I can't do much other
than sit there in a ball and wait for my body to get rid of enough of it.
Based on the other comments, that's a lot more than for bipolar doses.

------
sails
A great intro into the history and current status of psychedelics is How to
Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan [0].

> It chronicles the long and storied history of psychedelic drugs, from their
> turbulent 1960s heyday to the resulting countermovement and backlash.
> Through his coverage of the recent resurgence in this field of research, as
> well as his own personal use of psychedelics via a "mental travelogue",
> Pollan seeks to illuminate not only the mechanics of the drugs themselves,
> but also the inner workings of the human mind and consciousness.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Change_Your_Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Change_Your_Mind)

~~~
jcims
Pollan was on the JRE (edit: Joe Rogan Experience podcast) -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz4CrWE_P0g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz4CrWE_P0g)

~~~
raldi
You should probably spell out that acronym here.

~~~
jcims
Done thx

------
jaypeg25
How do you even control for a placebo in a trial like this? I gotta imagine
you're either going to know you're on mushrooms or you're not.

~~~
gbrown
You don't - you compare it to "standard of care" (antidepressants, CBT, etc.).

If we can compare an inferior treatment to placebo, and we can compare a
breakthrough treatment to this established standard, we can evaluate the new
treatment.

------
dynjo
I love how all these “terrible illegal drugs” turn out to be helping people in
so many different ways.

Remind me again, which illnesses alcohol cures?

~~~
yummypaint
Methanol poisoning, but that's it

~~~
hornbaker
Also ethylene glycol poisoning (antifreeze).

------
zaroth
With all the beautiful anecdotes on this page, HN is going to be driving a lot
of dark market traffic today.

------
fjabre
Another new and novel treatment for MDD is called rTMS or repetitive
Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation. Its effects are probably more durable than
Magic Mushrooms from the literature, up to a year or more in some cases from a
single round of treatment. A quick search in pubmed will bring 1000s of
articles on its efficacy.

Any loss for big pharma is a big win for consumers.

------
jcims
I wonder if this would be useful for folks dealing with cancer and other
illnesses that leave your future uncertain.

~~~
jacek
It has been proven to significantly reduce depression and anxiety in cancer
patients [1]. This has been one of the most famous studies on psychedelics in
recent years. However, set (patient's mindset, intentions, psychological
preparation) and setting (environment, support of the sitter) have huge impact
on the outcome. That's because psychedelics are not a switch that change your
brain chemistry forever, they are a tool that allow you to enter, understand
and reshuffle your mind.

[1]
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881116675513](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881116675513)

~~~
t34543
It should be standard to offer this and marijuana in hospice. It can bring
peace to those who are ill and their loved ones.

~~~
jcranberry
Psychedelics shouldn't be viewed as palliative. They help you to bring about
changes to your self. For some people trips can be very frightening or even
traumatizing.

~~~
t34543
One of my family members was dying and extremely anxious in hospice. The
person reflected on their life and wanted to make amends with some people.

I believe something like a psychedelic would’ve provided clarity. It could’ve
been traumatizing, but it could’ve worked too. Patients should have a choice
to accept the risk.

~~~
jcims
That’s the rub, right? They are already enduring insurmountable stress and
anxiety, a brand new horror story viscerally unfolding in their mind is an
extreme downside.

~~~
t34543
Hardly. Nothing left to lose.

------
dwaltrip
This and other developments make me very hopeful for the future of mental
health. Lots of hard work ahead, but it seems like a corner has finally been
turned.

~~~
fjabre
Check out rTMS (repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation). Brain
stimulation has come a long way.

------
foobar_
People who are a bit afraid of the drugs should try floatation tank together
with lucia light therapy. It's the best spiritually rejuvenating experience I
have had in my life and I've done them all. Floating tanks come with proper
set and setting so you don't have to worry about your safety.

All plants are medicinal. The thing is if you use them like processed sugar
you are fucked just like junk food that kills.

------
kossTKR
I am reminding myself to be a little critical of this future domain of
psychadelics used as mood stabilizers for the masses.

While human history is rich with tales of alchemy and mind altering
substances, the usage was often ritualised and functioning in a "sacred" or
communal context.

I personally experimented with some of these substances, and i intuitively see
them as a potential great leap forward compared to the potential horror of
opiates, benzodiazepines or life long SSRI use - but i also feel a vague dark
undercurrent running through this newfound mainstream appreciation of
psychedelics just as Mindfulness has become a utility or a tool removed from
its context or even it's original meaning whatever that may be.

My own struggle with living a healthy life in 21. century "technocapitalist
society" or whatever has led me to believe that most depression is not "just a
chemical imbalance", "a lack of appreciation or gratitude" or a "lazy mindset"
\- instead depression is _often not always_ closer to an evolutionary
mechanism telling you that "something is wrong" and you need to take radical
steps to remove yourself from X situation whether it be social, about
lifestyle or about geographic location - the opposite can also be true, that
you need to be accepted by a tribe, reach out for guidance or establish new
relationships.

Modern humans are in general pretty lonely, skin hungry, lack communal
connection, touch, intimacy, a good proper diet, connection with nature,
meaning/spirituality in a social context, have bad posture, are stressed out,
have horrible sleep patterns etc. compared to our evolutionary blueprint or
just compared to the societies of a few decades ago - without romanticising
too much.

In other words; it's not weird that people are depressed in this day and age
spending so much time inside, not being close to friends / family, not moving
about enough . And i am not convinced that mainstream palliative care is
sufficient or even the right approach the problem. It's about restructuring
local community, our cities and our daily lives.

Anyway i currently se this as being very promising, and a am still endlessly
fascinated by the philosophy and science of consciousness, meditative praxis
and psychedelics, so i am not against that aspect but critical of the
utilitarian mindset behind this type of use.

EDIT: I can see that i receive quite a lot of downvotes. Can anyone elaborate?

~~~
WhompingWindows
How is it not a "natural" way of life to imbibe natural compounds from plants
and fungi that have been imbibed for tens of thousands of years? THC, CBD, and
psilocybin, as well as many other compounds like coffee, tea, chocolate,
caffeine, etc. have been part of human diets for countless generations. There
are even biological theories that state that these plants and humans co-
evolved, with humans spreading around the plants intentionally and
unintentionally, and selecting those plants with "positive" effects and thus
co-evolution occurred.

~~~
chaos_emergent
I don't think that kossTKR said anything about the ingestion of these
substances being unnatural; rather, their implication is that psychedelics are
poised as a solution to the depressive symptoms that we feel by nature of
living in the societies that we do.

In other words: instead of fixing some of the symptoms caused by society, why
not change society and the ways that we live?

There are strong parallels in western notions of mindfulness. In our society
mindfulness/meditation are considered tools that helps us mitigate stress. The
original intent was to stop the sources of stress and suffering by developing
one's mind, but western interpretations fall far shorter of that, opting for a
grotesquely simplified and amputated version of the original philosophy that
aids in placating the masses rather than bringing about fundamental changes to
the ways we live.

------
jquery
I took psilocybin once, over a decade ago. I didn't realize it at the time,
but I was suffering from mild depression. After the "trip", my mild depression
was lifted for at least the following 5 years. Pretty potent stuff.

~~~
shartshooter
Psilocybin doesn't stay in your body for years. The impact to you was likely
due to the experience _while tripping_ on psilocybin.

~~~
jquery
Oh, I know. I just mean it’s pretty impressive one dose of anything could have
such long lasting curative effects on something as intractable as depression.

------
qwerty456127
I can't wait to see the faces of war on drug proponents when clinical practice
will prove psylocibin has no adverse effects and no addiction potential.

~~~
davesque
Are you assuming proponents of the war on drugs would be rationally motivated
by facts?

~~~
qwerty456127
As far as I know it's already a scientific fact but this time it is going to
become "official". You can deny what has been figured out in a laboratory on a
humble group of people (let alone mice) but you have little choice but to shut
up once thousands of people all over the country get cured this way without
going nuts or "becoming prostitutes" ©.

------
flattone
Imteresting. . And immediately relevant to considering production...
[https://qz.com/1235963/scientists-who-want-to-study-
psychede...](https://qz.com/1235963/scientists-who-want-to-study-psychedelic-
mushrooms-have-to-pay-7000-per-gram/)

------
psalminen
Unrelated: I just saw Fantastic Fungi[1], a Louie Schwartzberg film, which
discusses Psilocybin in depth. It is one of the most visually entertaining
movies I've ever seen. Highly recommend!

[1] [https://fantasticfungi.com/](https://fantasticfungi.com/)

------
Mortiffer
Does anyone know a 25 mg oral dose of pure psilocybin compares to typical
grams of dried mushrooms people eat ?

~~~
not_math
From Wikipedia: "The concentration of active psilocybin mushroom compounds
varies not only from species to species, but also from mushroom to mushroom
inside a given species, subspecies or variety. The same holds true even for
different parts of the same mushroom. In the species Psilocybe samuiensis, the
dried cap of the mushroom contains the most psilocybin at about 0.23%–0.90%.
The mycelium contains about 0.24%–0.32%."

So for 3.5g ≈ [8.05mg ; 31.5mg] And for 2.5g ≈ [5.75mg ; 22.5mg]

------
kp98
Seems no one has mentioned it, but I wonder how easy it would be to prescribe
this as a solution to those with mental illness. For example, when I smoked
weed for the first and only time I had the worst panic attack of my life that
made it 5 hours of hell, so I promised myself I'd never do it again. I didn't
suffer from mental illness previously, except for some basic anxiety, but
these drugs can trigger major panic attacks and even psychosis. The risk of
triggering an episode goes up the more severe your illness; ie. I remember
reading that someone who previously suffered panic disorder has a 500% higher
chance than the average person of a panic attack when smoking weed and if you
are depressed or schizophrenic the numbers get worse.

Combine that with the fact that guys like Joe rogan tell those with mental
illness not to try hallucinogens, and it makes me wonder how will these
solutions affect the brain chemistry of the mentally ill in the long run? What
are the potential side effects and how does a pre-existing condition outside
of depression change your risk factors?

------
romaaeterna
I saw a stately "Family Practice" last week, that had been around for a few
years, but now had a big new street sign to the effect of "get your marijuana
here!" out front. I don't believe that I have ever seen that sort of thing for
other prescription drugs.

~~~
ftvy
Except for the myriad of prescription drugs advertised on television, radio,
websites, in magazines... do I need to go on?

~~~
romaaeterna
I've just never seen a street sign for one before. But you buttress my point.
A certain number of doctors are normal human beings after all, and are
perfectly willing to push pills if it makes them money. Entertainment/luxury
drugs are at the highest risk for this sort of behavior.

------
artificialLimbs
Erowid store massive amounts of information about drugs, including user
stories. It's a great resource for beginning research, and has a section for
psilocybin mushrooms.

[https://www.erowid.org/](https://www.erowid.org/)

------
sjg007
FYI the single dose trials that lead to this were discussed here before as
well:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3055731](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3055731)

------
ericlnu
Wow, that's awesome. Nature can heal, about time they recognize that.

------
dsalzman
[https://overcast.fm/+KebsDhWec](https://overcast.fm/+KebsDhWec)

Great Tim Ferris podcast with Michael Pollan that goes into the details on
this subject.

~~~
andy_ppp
I think Tim Ferris has been helping fund some of the research...
[https://www.businessinsider.com/tim-ferriss-first-
psychedeli...](https://www.businessinsider.com/tim-ferriss-first-psychedelic-
research-center-launches-imperial-london-2019-4?r=US&IR=T)

------
kingkawn
Seems entirely reasonable, at least for depression linked to overwhelming
emotional events, that a positive overwhelming emotional event would be
helpful.

------
wallace_f
Everyone prosecuted by the government for using this deserves compensation. In
fact, why do we give government such authority over us in the first place?

------
in3d
Note that Ketamine is already available and it has had impressive results for
depression based both on studies and on personal accounts.

------
bjt2n3904
I can't help but wonder if instead of confronting the source of our
depression, we're simply drugging ourselves to the point we can't feel it
anymore--especially that people are now looking to psilocybin as a means of
treating depression. Perhaps the depression is a symptom of something bigger,
a lack of purpose or meaning in life.

Someone I know was on medication for anxiety, and they remarked how they'd go
to see a movie at the theater, and would simply have no emotional reaction to
it. A character sacrificing their life for a friend would have the same
reaction as tomatoes being sliced for a hamburger.

The medication had an INCREDIBLE affect on them, and it really helped them out
of a bad place. But the huge thing is they learned to identify the source of
their anxiety and confront it, and no longer depend on the medication.

I just make circuits. Don't take this as medical advice.

~~~
thenewwazoo
With all respect to you as someone who is likely commenting in good faith, you
clearly have _no idea_ what you're talking about. I have mental health
problems that are all but solved by the medication I take, and I also have
extensive experience with hallucinogens. Without the medication, I am as you
describe: anhedonic, with a flat affect and little patience for, well, life.
Hallucinogens also have exactly zero dulling effect, and the "glow"
aftereffect from them is not a numbing, either. On the contrary, it's a deep
and abiding understanding of place in the universe and sense of self. YMMV,
obviously.

~~~
moretai
How long do you feel like this before you feel you have to hallucinate again?

~~~
dwaltrip
It's not about hallucinating. The important thing is that it provides a
powerful soft reset on highly-habituated thought patterns, reactions, and
perspectives.

People who experience depression and anxiety often times have ingrained
negative or counter-productive thought patterns and micro reactions that are
very difficult to overcome. Sometimes even noticing these patterns is quite
tricky.

It makes a ton of sense to me that psilocybin, especially with the guidance of
skilled therapists, can have this kind of incredible impact.

------
psibate
After several years of casual reading online and reading "How to Change Your
Mind", I decided to experiment with psilocybin.

What I did was borderline reckless. The substance is illegal. Using it outside
the context of carefully designed interventions has no evidence of improving
the well-being over the long run. Despite these clear detractors, I feel
sharing my experience may help others in their search for happiness.

My main concern was how to know if I was given the real thing or the right
dose. I decided to go with dried, whole mushrooms and grind them up at home.
For a month, I took around 150-250g every 3 days and took notes throughout the
day. This helped me record how I was feeling (even on 'off' days) to assess
how it was affecting how I felt. This could be considered microdosing, but not
quite as somedays I noticed a difference: I was more aware of my emotions and
what happened throughout my day. Intense anger, sadness, joy, beauty, the
whole thing. I noticed details details I had never noticed in my daily
commute.

This could have been due to the journaling. My main objective was to see how
the substance affected me. After concluding the trial a friend asked me 'so,
are you happier now?'. That was not the point. My takeaway was that the
exercise made me more aware of my feelings - something I realized would be
useful if I wanted to get to know myself better. After this, I was still
scared to do a 'full dose' and left it at that.

After around 6 months, I decided to try it out. Felt I needed supervision but
my close ones thought I was crazy for wanting to do this. Stupidly, I did
something riskier and went on trying to find a 'healer' online. Luckily I
found a nice lady (she had yelp reviews and all) who took care of me while I
took 2g of dried shrooms. She didn't seem to do anything special, just make
sure I had a nice/safe space to lie down while high. Again, the dosing was
gradual: first 1g (4-5x what I had during the microdosing trial) then an extra
one after a few hours.

It felt like I had meditated for years. My deepest hour-long meditation does
not come even close. Everything was peaceful. I felt all sorts of emotions, as
if a color wheel and tried them out one by one and switched between them: deep
sorrow, bliss, intense anger and many more as well as quick transitions and
mixes I can't explain.

My life changed after this. I am a more conscientious coworker and husband. I
am present. I am there for my loved ones. I love myself and stopped shaming
myself for not working. I understood that the point of my life is just living
it: no further instructions or expectations. This is something I needed to
internalize and the session helped me.

After a few months I felt I had yet to discover more. Based on what I had read
online, I knew the substance had the ability to make me feel other important
things. I realized the lady just made me feel safe and I had already seen what
150mg-2g did to me, so I decided to do more on my own.

I locked myself up in my apartment, gave my best friend the key and told him
to drop by just in case to check up on me. I worked my way up 1g at a time to
7.5g. I felt what many mention online. A quick way to summarize it is 'we'. I
felt what it feels to not be myself. My big conclusion was that the only thing
I could do was be grateful. I have taken to this feeling daily after that
session.

To be clear: I already had a daily meditation practice and a habit of
journaling my gratitudes before the trips. The conclusions under the substance
may have just been things I had already been exposed and intensely prioritized
in my life. But there's something about these experiences that made me feel
more intensly and helped me internalize them - I 'felt' the conclusions, not
just 'think' about them.

I am scared of the consequences of suggesting others to try this out. The
feelings I experienced, the results I have seen in my personal life and the
literature we have about this substance make me conclude that the risk is
worth taking. Basic precautions can help mitigate the downside: small/trial
doses, safe environment and some reading about the substance worked for me.

When I read what is happening with these trials, I can't help but hope we find
a way to give this to everyone. I do not claim that what I did is safe or even
desirable at scale. There's a chance if 100 people do what I did, some may
accelerate or trigger some form of mental illness or harm themselves (I did
think 'what if he kills himself?' (thinking about myself) and figured none of
my loved ones would want to try shrooms if I did).

A world with more people who can feel 'we' is filled with love and compassion.
I believe psilocybin can help us.

------
beepboopbeep
The worst part about the psychedelic renaissance is the comment section.

~~~
davebryand
Nailed it. It surprises me how few in this crowd has had first-hand
experience.

------
vmurthy
tl;dr

The FDA will review on priority if the clinical trial (details here ->
[https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866174](https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866174))
succeeds.

For people outside of the US (like me) who don't know what "Breakthrough
Therapy" is : "Breakthrough therapy is a United States Food and Drug
Administration designation that expedites drug development that was created by
Congress under Section 902 of the 9 July 2012 Food and Drug Administration
Safety and Innovation Act. he FDA's "breakthrough therapy" designation is not
intended to imply that a drug is actually a "breakthrough" or that there is
high-quality evidence of treatment efficacy for a particular condition;
rather, it allows the FDA to grant priority review to drug candidates if
preliminary clinical trials indicate that the therapy may offer substantial
treatment advantages over existing options for patients with serious or life-
threatening diseases" [1]

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_therapy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_therapy)

------
adultSwim
Disappointing graphic

------
abd1
very informative post i liked thanks for sharing post

------
Freegile
I often wonder if Depression really is a "disorder" that you either have or
don't have. And that can be "cured".

Unlike having a broken leg or having the flu, depression seems to be something
everybody has to a certain degree.

Is there any research on this available?

~~~
notabee
Depression has plenty of evidence linking it to inflammation. If we can start
seeing it not in terms of mind/body dualism, or on some outmoded moral
spectrum, but on the same terms as any other illness, like the common cold,
we'll make a lot of progress with it as a society. Much like the common cold,
it probably has many different causes (like colds are causes by many viruses)
but the same disease phenotype.

What you might be getting at with the comment that "everyone has it" is that
modern society seems to cause depression just as surely as swimming in sewage
will cause other illnesses. Much like society prior to germ theory, widespread
depression will continue until we can learn more about the causes and
mechanisms. People used to think other illnesses were moral failing or
spiritual possession until we discovered that it was from drinking water that
someone else crapped in. So how many things are crapping on your mental
health? Are they really inevitable and necessary, or just bad cultural
programming and assumptions about what society should look like? How much
might be from strictly physical causes like air pollution? (There's research
backing that.)

~~~
Freegile

        Depression has plenty of evidence
        linking it to inflammation
    

That would be interesting. What makes you think so? Any studies you can link
to?

~~~
notabee
Here's a few for depression and air pollution[1][2] Here's some studies on
anti-inflammatory treatments for treatment resistant depression[3] And more
relevant to the original topic, 5HT-2A receptor agonists may have anti-
inflammatory effects. There's huge potential in a broad class of molecules
that have been banned for moral, not medicinal, reasons.[4] Edit: picked
another one [5]

1\.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30719959](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30719959)

2\. [https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/01/brain-pollution-
evid...](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/01/brain-pollution-evidence-
builds-dirty-air-causes-alzheimer-s-dementia)

3.[https://www.healio.com/psychiatry/depression/news/online/%7B...](https://www.healio.com/psychiatry/depression/news/online/%7B892f625f-13e6-4a1d-92e5-250ad1be05a2%7D/clinicians-
guide-to-anti-inflammatory-treatments-for-major-depression)

4.[https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.2019.33.1_supp...](https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.2019.33.1_supplement.503.12)

5.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3788795/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3788795/)

That's just some quick googling. There's tons more out there to read!

~~~
Freegile
Sorry, but none of these are studies about the relationship between depression
and inflammation treatment.

Such a study would have to provide a measurement of the severity of the
depression. Then split the patients in two groups. Give one group a placebo
and the other one the inflammation treatment. And then compare the depression
severity in those groups after the treatment.

------
munkiefish
Atlast

------
sdegutis
Using pills to solve a moral problem is as ineffective and illogical as using
food to solve sadness.

~~~
tasty_freeze
You think having depression is a moral failure? Do you know, or perhaps even
love, someone with clinical depression? I do; we've been married more then 20
years, so I see it up close every day. It isn't a problem of morals or
character.

To see her suffering and struggle daily and to have some internet expert claim
she has a moral deficit is more than a little aggravating.

Something has gone wrong in the control loops that keep her a healthy balance
point. The brain/body connection is real, not some new age woo.

~~~
sdegutis
Having depression is not a moral failure. But often it is caused by a lack of
knowing how to handle moral dilemmas properly.

The brain is just a conduit for the soul and this connection is called the
mind.

~~~
tasty_freeze
> The brain is just a conduit for the soul

OK, you are arguing a religious belief, and are ignoring the measurable
biochemical anomalies in my wife's physical body. Please list some of these
moral dilemmas that my wife is unable to handle that caused this condition,
and why I should discount the decades of chronic pain caused by a genetic
problem (EDS), the wrestling match with cancer, the familial disposition
towards depression, the debilitating effects of living in a house affected by
black mold, etc.

~~~
sdegutis
Cause and effect goes much deeper than atoms.

~~~
tasty_freeze
I look forward to your Nobel Prize establishing this.

~~~
sdegutis
It's not that it's unproved, it's that people aren't interested in hearing the
proof, because it would mean they would have to change. If you are interested
in explanations, watch a couple of Fulton Sheen episodes linked to from
[https://sdegutis.github.io](https://sdegutis.github.io) especially within the
Family Retreat series or the Catechism series.

