
Unselfish People Are More Likely to Wind Up with Depression - smn1234
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/43a5y9/unselfish-people-are-more-likely-to-wind-up-with-depression
======
k-mcgrady
The point here seems to be that unselfish people are more empathetic to the
plight of others. while I don't disagree I wonder if unselfishness leads
people into situations where they work towards others benefit (people they
perceive as being treated unfairly) at their own detriment also possibly
leading to issues with depression. That's the point I presumed the article
would make before I read it.

~~~
aaron-lebo
When I see people talk about living indefinitely around here in threads that
come up occasionally, it does make me wonder if they are on the other side of
some selfishness cutoff. It's weird to think that you'd be interested in
living for centuries or longer in a world that has seen everyone before you
die and day by day sees horrific injustice. It's almost solipsistic.

The same dynamic exists with those hundred millionaire preppers. It's very
peculiar to actively prepare for a world in which hundreds of millions are
dead and you are surviving in a mansion in the boonies somewhere. That must
signal something, some kind of disconnect between your plight and the plight
of others.

Though the people discussing that aren't usually obviously "selfish" so it
does seem that the people who are directing the controls (or have a shot at
them) usually are lacking some kind of empathy. The lack of it is probably
useful if not necessary to get ahead because if you do stop to consider the
world, it's hard not to find it very depressing.

~~~
sol_remmy
With that kind of thinking, why are you even posting here? Why do you allow
yourself any leisure time when people in the world are starving?

~~~
aaron-lebo
Because HN is a good distraction from that. Maybe I'm working on making it
better and I haven't told you, or maybe I'm just a bum. Does it matter? It's a
damn forum, we're all wasting time, that's the point?

I'm surprised how strongly people feel about that post.

~~~
icebraining
You just said a whole bunch of people are lacking in empathy, and you're
surprised people are reacting strongly?

Seems ironic.

~~~
aaron-lebo
I'm just surprised there is such a large contingent of hundred millionaire
preppers and/or people who think they are going to live forever and don't see
how that could be interpreted as lacking empathy, when there are (as the
previous poster pointed out), people dying of starvation.

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bagacrap
I can't tell where they flipped the directionality around for the headline,
because the first line of the article is "People with depression are more
likely to feel bad in response to perceived inequality" and the rest of the
article sticks to that finding. It seems intuitive that people with depression
are more likely to feel bad in response to X, for all X.

~~~
racer-v
Nope - clinical depression is different from "feeling bad in response" to a
specific stimulus. If you do something hurtful to me and I feel bad about it,
that's not depression. When nothing is happening and I feel bad in general,
that's depression.

The article says, people who feel bad in response to specific types of
stimulus (a perceived slight), rather than just shrugging it off, are more
likely to develop full-blown clinical depression down the line.

~~~
lliamander
However, there is a personality trait, Neuroticism, which has to do with
sensitivity to negative emotion, and also does correlate with depression,
anxiety, etc. In other words, if you are higher in Neuroticism (i.e. more
susceptible to negative emotions) then you are more likely to also develop
clinical depression.

~~~
racer-v
What is the state of personality theory constructs with respect to empirical
validation (e.g. fMRI)?

~~~
pizza
As for fMRI, while it's not particularly under existential threat
re:empiricism, it's not necessarily a silver bullet:
[http://blog.brainfacts.org/2016/07/are-fmri-data-analysis-
me...](http://blog.brainfacts.org/2016/07/are-fmri-data-analysis-methods-
reliable/)

Personally, my opinion is that the ambiguity of people's self-perceptions of
their persona allows there to be an asymmetry between the harm they might get
receiving advice about their personality and the benefit they might get from
heeding advice about personalities that they can at least envision themselves
as being perceived by others as having, if that makes sense. It probably isn't
particularly empirical, but I don't know if we will get to a science of
personality within our lifetimes (but (maybe..?) it would be nice to be proved
wrong).

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thriftwy
On the other hand, people often see themself as unselfish when in fact they
are highly emotionally dependent on other people instead of being self-
sufficient.

This path would lead directly to depression when you find out that the person
you are emotionally dependent on isn't going to dedicate themself to making
world look just to you.

~~~
KirinDave
I'd love to read more literature about this phenomenon. Do you have any?

~~~
thriftwy
Actually, I do, but it's all in Russian. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
2g67vupsoknn
Sounds interesting, where can I find it?

~~~
thriftwy
Start with [https://evo-
lutio.livejournal.com/tag/%D0%90%D0%B4%D0%B4%D0%...](https://evo-
lutio.livejournal.com/tag/%D0%90%D0%B4%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F)
and the journal in general

[https://evo-lutio.livejournal.com/509588.html](https://evo-
lutio.livejournal.com/509588.html) for the quick description of the dynamics
that I am referring to

------
bhewes
Canary in the coal mine.

Depression may be a social illness because people with heighten empathy feel
something is wrong with the system around them resulting in depression.

That seems a stronger argument then some macro economic argument about ill
defined inequality.

~~~
phil21
Someone already replied to you with some of the same point - but I think the
problem is exceedingly obvious - we lack community in the US.

I put a large part of the blame on suburban development. What did we expect
when we took social animals and then sequestered them into little boxes far
away from where humans congregate - requiring you to fit into another little
box to drive to the next box for your planned and highly controlled social
experience. Nevermind the 1.5hrs+ the average suburban commuter sits in a
little box 5 days a week.

I've been thinking of where to move to finally "settle down" in the US - and
I'm coming up with a blank to be honest. I want to live somewhere I can be
part of a community that shares my values and pulls together on a day to day
basis - not just when some national news style emergency happens. I want daily
interaction with my neighbors, forced or otherwise. I want the neighborhood
kids to come running through my yard/sidewalk/whatever and to feed half a
dozen of them lunch if they happen to be around when it's time, and to expect
the same when my kid is off wandering and exploring.

The phrase it takes a village to raise a child is absolutely more true than I
ever realized. We destroyed nearly all our villages, and now wonder why we're
so divided and depressed. We no longer function as a society that shares the
same major goals.

Talking to someone who lives in a semi-functional (I'm not sure functional
exists in the US) community from a large city compared to the average
suburbanite is eye opening in the disconnect from reality the latter has. I
grew up around it, and simply didn't realize how damaging it is until I
started to travel the world and see how _actual_ communities function.

I know some folks do well in suburban-style living, but I would say that the
majority who say they love it are actively being mentally and socially damaged
and simply don't know it. The views they express are now completely
normalized.

~~~
bhewes
Warning this is coming from someone highly involved in Oklahoma politics.

Oklahoma towns and cities tends to be more community centered. This may be do
to a lack of money in a community or physical isolation from the rest of the
country. But it is still there.

There are the same problems that other cities have, but we do provide good
housing for most of our citizens. Tulsa, in particular through the work of the
Mental Health Association of Oklahoma has ended chronic homeless within its
borders. We are working on the same in Oklahoma City. We believe hard work
matters and people can be leave poverty. The community providing the support
systems for that to happen. Now, no one is going to give it to you. We just
allow an affordable education path for betterment. And have a strong network
of nonprofits and family foundations supporting programs of many kinds.

That is just in the area I am fortunate to work in. Oklahoma is not perfect
one just has to look at where we stand national on things like teen pregnancy,
women incarnation, drug abuse etc. It is just there are some places where
community still matters and Oklahoma is one of those places.

------
Disillusioned9
The article makes no attempt to establish that concern for others' interests
is not necessarily mutually exclusive to self-interest.

In his book Give and Take, Adam Grant talks about givers who are "otherish:"
they demonstrate strong compassion for others, but not at the neglect of self-
interest. Those who identified as otherish were least susceptible to burnout
or compassion fatigue and could sustain their patterns for giving more help
than they received for long periods of time.

I suspect there is some correlation between high concern for the interests of
others and low prioritization of self-interest. But the real culprit is low
self-interest, not high empathy or a strong concern for fairness.

~~~
newscracker
From practical observation, I disagree with your last point. When fighting for
improving the state of affairs or fighting against injustice, the amount of
time and effort it takes to achieve even small positive changes is huge in
many areas. Even with self-interest, the amount of extreme hopelessness
doesn’t really go away. Add to this the fact that people who could easily care
and make a difference most often ignore things, it’s a recipe for becoming
frustrated, feeling helpless and seeing things like a never ending struggle
with very little to show for. The lack of empathy and the high prevalence of
inaction among the majority act as triggers in all this.

------
NiklasMort
Look at the world, how can one not be sad or depressed about reality?
'Ignorance is bliss' is a widely known for a reason

~~~
eduren
'Ignorance is bliss' taken to its logical conclusion is advocating for
cessation of life. What is the ultimate ignorance? Death.

I don't mean to offend or flame, but putting this bluntly feels important:

Why don't you want to keep living?

~~~
NiklasMort
I am pretty sure if we wouldn't have this instinct to survive, reflexes etc.,
lot of people would op out. Btw the ultimate ignorance is not death, but the
act of killing yourself

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theyregreat
“Selfish” conflates two simultaneously-weighted perceptions “this person
should give me more” and rational self-interest / getting or not getting a
better “deal.”

Likewise, “unselfish” conflates two simultaneously-weighted perceptions
virtue-signaling (appearance of giving) and genuine caring about individuals
and people (substance of effective helping).

Another issue is that culturally, some people resent each other when there is
difference in default attitude: selfish vs. unselfish. It may seem racist but
I’ve observed an underlying tension between Arabs and Israelis arise from this
difference in outlook in individual relationships.

------
fictionfuture
What defines someone as 'unselfish?'

In my experience, many 'unselfish' people are people that don't take the time
to study and understand human nature. Since it's human nature to be 'nice'
they default to this behavior and never seem to get the results they are
after. Hence the depression.

On the other hand, once you study, you'll learn that principled selfishness is
the KEY to getting what you want. Hence better results and less depression.

------
lsd5you
Unselfish? In the article the term unselfish was used instead of altruistic.
Unselfish views and concerns of course don't actually help anyone. Being
concerned for something and not doing anything about it is a going to be
depressive. People regularly report that the best way to feel good (and
connected) is to go out and help other people, and conversely not worry too
much about the things you cannot realisically effect. I would suggested the
seemingly immutable course of the modern world contributes to a feeling of
helplessness and increased rates of depression.

------
tapatio
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_vulture_and_the_little_gir...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_vulture_and_the_little_girl)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter#Death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter#Death)

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bootcat
Actually, that seems to be right from my limited experience. Also, my yoga
guru says, being selfish is also good at times, because we are responsible for
the life that we are first, and then comes other lives.

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brad0
Personally I believe that depression is caused when you're not doing what you
want (or you're not aware of what you want).

By not doing what you find rewarding your brain doesn't have enough dopamine
running through your system.

It's still a concept in development so I'm open to any counter arguments.

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model_m_warrior
I feel great today.

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harveyzz
DAE immediately think of Aaron Swartz when reading this article?

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harveyzz
why did I immediately think of Aaron Swartz when reading this.......

