
Venezuelan Opposition Leaders Detained at Gunpoint in Raids - JumpCrisscross
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-01/venezuelan-opposition-leader-lopez-taken-from-home-wife-says-j5t9dnl0
======
meri_dian
As a US citizen, whatever happens, I really hope America doesn't get involved
in arming the protesters. Voice support for them but do not get involved in
any material way.

We don't need another Syria on our hands, where two sides of a civil was were
aided and armed by great powers who didn't care enough to significantly
involve themselves in the conflict but cared just enough in principle to
prolong it, destroying the nation in the process.

I recognize that Venezuela is far from being Syria, but at the end of the day,
prolonged civil war is worse than either side winning outright. Order over
chaos.

~~~
gtirloni
For comparison, Venezuela had a 57.15 murder rate in 2015 (per 100k habitants)
while pre-war Syria had 2.23 in 2010.

My point being that many countries in LatAm live in a disguised civil war
state and it's just "normal" (far from it, actually).

~~~
elcapitan
Syria being a dictatorship that makes people 'disappear' without official
statistics, though.

~~~
ihsw2
Are you implying that the Salafist-Jihadist rebels in Syria don't do the exact
same? Because they make people "disappear" too, in addition to brutally and
savagely executing people in public (decapitation, mutilation, etc).

And I'm not just talking about the now-defunct Isil -- al-Qaeda (AKA Jabhat
al-Nusra AKA Jabhat Fateh al-Sham AKA Hayat Tahrir al-Sham) are equally guilty
of using religious pretext to subjugate and murder at their discretion.

There's more to the situation in Syria than what CNN and MSNBC spoon-feed the
ignorant masses.

~~~
aaron-lebo
No, he's not implying that.

He's saying that prior to 2010 (pre civil war), a lot of people could quietly
disappear in Syria due to the government.

CNN and MSNBC don't have anything to do with reading comprehension.

~~~
elcapitan
Exactly. Thanks.

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dep_b
I hate Maduro as much as any sane person should but these particular people
were rallying the people _and_ the army to do a coup. I'm not sure how well
that would sit in a country like the US. You can do that under the flag of
free speech?

Even more cynical there are still people in the Mercosur that back Maduro even
now. I can imagine left leaning people would align with a socialist government
initially but still after all this happened? Let me put your names on the list
of people to never trust with a democracy again.

~~~
Brakenshire
> Even more cynical there are still people in the Mercosur that back Maduro
> even now. I can imagine left leaning people would align with a socialist
> government initially but still after all this happened?

Not just Mercosur, the leader of the UK Labour party is a long term Chavez
supporter, and still hasn't come out against all of this.

~~~
wooter
These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in
places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually
more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana
republic now?

\- Bernie Sanders (on his site, [https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-
read/close-the-...](https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-
the-gaps-disparities-that-threaten-america))

~~~
Brakenshire
Yeah. Sanders and Corbyn are strange figureheads really. I've spoken to Labour
politicians who think that Corbyn hasn't changed his mind since 1983. They all
are still carrying all of this pointless and discredited Cold War era baggage.

A friend of Corbyn's has praised North Korea and Stalinism, and Corbyn
appointed him to a major position in his election campaign:
[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-
defends-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-defends-
andrew-murray-ex-communist-after-drafted-in-as-election-adviser-secondment-
unite_uk_5919d8a4e4b07d5f6ba4bf4a)

They do the job of right-wing ideologues for them by conflating social
democracy with communism and authoritarianism. They still have not learnt the
lessons of Orwell and Solzhenitsyn about the nonsense of arbitrarily taking
sides.

------
bsaul
This type of situation is actually the one that makes me believe in the long-
term viability of cryptocurrencies. If i were living in venezuela right now, i
would buy as many bitcoins as i could with my money, as soon as the president
prevents regular currency trading through regular banks (which shouldn't take
too long to happen, unless it's already the case).

~~~
raverbashing
I love the bitcoin concept, but it's clear most of their fans don't understand
much about how the real world works

How do you propose they trade Bolivars for BTC? Do you think VNZL mines enough
to have a local market? See the restrictions on foreign currency purchases in
VNZL (and what is effectively two exchange rates)

How do you propose the bitcoins are subsequently used? For buying basic items
(like toilet paper, which gets smuggled from Brazil)

Airlines can't repatriate their earnings from VNZL. Oh I know, they should buy
bitcoin! /s

But I assure you most of the well offs already have their earnings safely in a
Miami bank account.

~~~
tomjen3
You can buy with dollars on the black market, bitcoin is trivialy exchangeable
for dollars. You have to mine them, but power is heavialy subsidized...

~~~
raverbashing
You can buy USD paper currency in Venezuela, how do you buy bitcoins with
that?

I'm not sure what's the story with credit cards there, but I assume the limits
are strict.

~~~
tomjen3
>David, 27, a computer scientist living in Maracay, imports basic staples to
help feed his family. He purchases Amazon gift cards through the bitcoin-
friendly website eGifter, and then channels his orders through a Miami-based
courier service.

[http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/04/venezuelan...](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/04/venezuelans-
turned-bitcoin-mining-170415124105593.html)

That is one way to get the money out. As the article points out, others keep
the money in bitcoin (which would have net them a handsome profit lately), but
presumably you could also get an overseas bank account denominated in dollars.

------
legulere
Can someone explain me how the country with the biggest oil reserves in the
world can be in economic problems, that lead to shortages? Even with an
incompetent government this seems highly unlikely to happen to me.

~~~
whb07
Chronic underinvestment in the people and equipment needed to get that oil
out. It's not a simple "just dig until you find oil".

There's also the government taking over private companies and running them
poorly(surprise). Which leads to less investment and production which leads to
less tax revenue, and the downward spiral keeps picking up speed.

~~~
justadeveloper2
It's South America. I figure there's a ton of corruption and just plain
stupidity. Look at how China runs things--they don't fix anything, they just
build stuff and let if fall apart. It's a different way of thinking.

------
des429
How long until Maduro and his Goldman Sachs allies are bailed out by the IMF?

[http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/30/news/economy/goldman-
sachs-v...](http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/30/news/economy/goldman-sachs-
venezuela/index.html)

In the end it will be the rest of the world (with most of the support coming
from US tax payers) that bails out this country. Maduro will continue his
reign and the debt will continue to pile-on. The money from the IMF will go
directly to Goldman Sachs to first pay off debts, and then will go directly to
Maduro.

[http://www.reuters.com/article/us-imf-g20-worldbank-
venezuel...](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-imf-g20-worldbank-venezuela-
idUSKBN17L1IG?il=0)

~~~
marcosdumay
I don't think Maduro will get out of that alive.

He could have run away last year, but now I don't think he has anywhere to go.

------
Tycho
The strongest argument against gun control you will ever find.

~~~
ATsch
How so? How would having a gun in a cupboard or somewhere help you in a
situation like this? Once you are at gunpoint it's game over, regardless of
gun control. It's easy to imagine this is hollywood where the hero easily
escapes from gunpoint with kung fu ninja skills while the evil mastermind
explains the master plan but that isn't a realistic scenario.

EDIT: is it just me or did this say something about airports before?

~~~
Tycho
A few years ago the government banned civilian ownership of guns. Then, a few
months ago they announced the arming of a half-million strong militia. Now
they are rounding up political opposition at gunpoint. Yes, I do think it is
easier to send your goons to round up enemies when only your goons have guns,
and don't need to worry about getting their heads blown off. Now with they can
proceed to round up whoever else they need to take care of.

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-4419630/Venezuel...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-4419630/Venezuelas-
Maduro-seeks-expand-armed-civilian-militias.html)

------
Entangled
Dictatorship in full swing. Please send weapons.

~~~
empath75
Whatever we do, we should not do that.

I spent quite a bit of time traveling through Central America. The third or
fourth time you hear about massacres by us backed armies, or hear people tell
you that they were made orphans when their entire family was murdered by death
squads who were armed by America, you have to question the wisdom of backing
armed rebellions.

~~~
doktrin
Agreed. The middle east tends to get all the press, but IMO we have more blood
on our hands in South America. I'm typically of the opinion that the US as
global hegemon has been a net-positive for the world, but our history of
incompetent meddling south of our border is almost indefensible.

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pjc50
Not really an HN article? Also, I've got tired of downvoting stupid comments
on this thread so I've flagged the whole thing.

