
Ask HN: Help scaling app advertising, and strategies for better results - definitelyhuman
I’m running a boostrapped B2C mobile app company, and don’t have access to experienced marketers in my network. I’ve been running some test ads to validate marketability, and have encouraging initial KPI’s, but I don’t know how to grow UA volume effectively, and how KPI’s will change as spend increases.<p>== Overview
My current 4wk test on Google Ads App targeting the US yields:
 - 3.7% CTR
 - 21.2% CVR
 - 450k imp
This gets my desired CPI, but does not spend the entire budget, so even though the KPI’s are encouraging, the bid is too low to get traction, and I can’t scale up. I see two immediate options:
1. Get better creative. This is actionable, and in progress
2. Bid higher. This is possible, but is gated by LTV<p>I’m new to this part of the game, and have tens of thousand in budget, and I want to make the most of it.<p>== How Do Ad Networks Operate?
 - At their core, are networks CPM based? Then CPC and CPI become hedging options so the customer only pays for what they want, but the network adjusts impressions based on the statistical performance of ads to decide if the bid is likely to yield a payout.
 - a CPC bid is then gives a CPM bid based on CTR
 - CPI gives a CPM bid based on CTR &amp; CVR<p>== Strategy questions for more conversions for less spend
 - Use CPM once I am confident in the CTR &amp; CVR of certain creative?
 - Bid higher on new campaigns to warm up the network stats, then decrease the bid to reduce cost, but maintain the benefit of effective KPI’s?
 - Campaigns must saturate and get less effective over time, is there an active part I can take to manage this, or let the network tail off?
 - Do different networks need different strategies? 
 - Google App campaigns only have CPI, can driving installs from a display campaign be effective?
 - A universe of other strategies &amp; tactics must also exist - what’s yours?<p>Any insights in this area would be greatly appreciated!
======
franciscojgo
Ok, this used to be my thing but I will try to get you an overview.

Ad networks nowadays offer all options. Generally you start with CPC to test
creatives and optimize the creative. Once you can get a performing ad or
funnel you can start aiming for CPM bidding if it makes sense. Ie. if you have
a good CTR, you can reduce your CPC equivalent down to peanuts or at least
lower than by paying CPC.

The power of getting into CPM is not only to drive down the cost, but to
actually capture all the volume an ad spot can get.

IF you are able to bid a high enough CPM you will win all the "air time",
instead of the network having to split yours with other advertisers paying by
other means.

CPM/CPC/CTR is worth nothing if you are not converting, so the key to
everything is to do do actual measurements and optimization based on
everything you can measure. This is more involved than you would like to think
and it is REAL grunt work. It is also how you can make tons of money and make
your spend profitable.

You need to know what creative is creating more conversions, what OS is
generating more conversions. (ie. iOS is more profitable - higher income
users), what city/state (similar logic as OS).

I used to advertise on Inmobi and Airpush. Please check if there are others.

Initially you want to spend to gather data and then start drilling down on the
best performing targeting.

There are ad optimization tools that can help with this and integrate with
different ad networks. I really dont know what's out there now but I am sure
there are. These give you a place to add pixel tracking, analyze data and
really drill down on the data to see what is making you more money.

~~~
definitelyhuman
Thanks, that seems to confirm my suspicion that CPM will have the lowest cost
- provided we have well known inputs and well tracked output.

We've been carefully building out our LTV tracking so we can capture true
revenue from all sources attributed back to individual campaigns, so I feel
confident we're ready to measure.

Our top three networks are facebook, google, and applvoin, which all have very
different methods of targeting, but this helps clarify how a strategy would
work.

~~~
franciscojgo
To address your other questions:

Bid higher on new campaigns to warm up the network stats, then decrease the
bid to reduce cost, but maintain the benefit of effective KPI’s?

This is correct. Bid higher to get volume and get data to analyze and drill
down targeting with it later. Not only bid higher but spend higher. Spend a
good amount for 1-3 days. It depends on budget but if you have $500 daily
budget for all make sure you spend those $500 to get more reliable/significant
data on a single campaign.

You dont need to reduce the bid. That will probably reduce the volume or
outbid you or lose the campaign. Just re target and even increase bid once you
drill down on what's working.

Low bid, low volume. High bid, high volume. If you have an ad set that's super
profitable and with high conversion, try increasing the bid. It will probably
get you more volume. Unless the audience is super small and local.

Likewise, to get data you need volume. So bid higher. Then you can reduce if
needed or adjust.

\- Campaigns must saturate and get less effective over time, is there an
active part I can take to manage this, or let the network tail off?

Campaigns do not saturate, but creatives do. You need to be constantly be
testing new creatives, wording and angles. And I dont mean just editing
creatives to improve CTR, I mean trying completely different advertising
angles. (ie. emotions, fear of not using your product, discounts, authority of
your product, etc) These are the things that will change your profit, CTR is
just CTR and only matters if you just want to reduce your ad spend/traffic
ratio. Edit creatives so that with everything else equal, they are more
profitable.

\- Do different networks need different strategies? - Google App campaigns
only have CPI, can driving installs from a display campaign be effective? - A
universe of other strategies & tactics must also exist - what’s yours?

Networks do need different strategies but it's mostly targeting options and ad
placements capability. Also the volume and intent to purchase. Display network
can get you tons of volume. But it's also a risky game. It's also more
expensive to test and optimize accordingly. You need to create much more
creative sizes so you get decent volume and it can get overwhelming very
quickly.

Looks like verizonmedia is the premium network nowawadays. And it also looks
like you need a good budget to start AND it also looks like you can lose it
all very quickly. They may cater more to big brands that want brand awareness
and just need to spend vs the little guy that needs them to perform. But worth
checking out. Maybe they have a good platform.

I dont know your target market but it may be worth it to do a run of network
campaign if you have some way of measuring soemthing. (free for all
advertising but very cheap.)

Good luck.

~~~
definitelyhuman
excellent feedback, thanks a lot

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wjossey
Hey there! Spent five years in game ad tech, so here’s my rapid take on your
top questions.

Be patient. If you only have tens of thousands of dollars to work with, I
wouldn’t be concerned that you’re hitting your CPI but not hitting daily
spend.

I’d be looking near term at whether there’s a look alike audience you can
generate from your acquired users to improve your targeting (and hopefully
lowering your CPI), or if there are sub segments of those installing your app
with higher LTV which would allow you to spend higher in those cohorts.

Creative can make a huge difference, so it’s good you’re experimenting there.
There’s no magic sauce to that, and sometimes the dumbest looking creative is
your top performer.

Last, I’d be looking at which networks and placements are proving best LTV
wise for you. Make sure you’re optimizing towards the placements with the best
return and pushing those harder. If you’re running freemium, I’d be looking at
ARPU per placement rather than just CPI. Only pour gas on the placements where
the ARPU is exceeding the CPI consistently.

Good luck!

~~~
definitelyhuman
Thanks! I've been working on audience definition, and was planning to try to
refine as we get into more granular testing. We don't have any social account
linking to avoid that friction point, so our visibility is limited. Any tips
on getting audience insights?

Do you have any thoughts on cost & value of CPI vs CPC vs CPM?

