
In 2016, Paris to be home to the biggest startup incubator in the world - regisfoucault
http://www.rudebaguette.com/2013/09/25/in-2016-paris-to-be-home-to-the-biggest-digital-incubator-in-the-world/
======
hartator
I have a business in both Austin, TX and Paris.

I want to share my experience. France is doomed. Taxes and red tape are harder
and harder every month. Just today, they have announced they want to raise a
new tax on video games (wtf) and distribute the money to french video game
large editor. (wtf) You can't do violent games or game that don't picture well
the french culture. (wtf!) If you are an indie game developer in France, you
are done.

Example of red tapes (someone asked):

\- You can't fire anyone. \- To hire someone, you have to face a handful of
fake applications. (People who don't want to get the job but are afraid of
losing their allocations) \- You have to publish your statement of income
every year. Even if you are full private LLC! \- You can't do online banking.
\- You have to declare every websites you own to the gov. \- Some crazy BS
about keeping access logs of your websites for an insane amount of time.

Example of taxes:

\- To pay an employee 1,000 Euros, you are paying 2,000. \- They have a
commission to monitor the evolution of work time and you have to pay them
directly. Not even a scam. \- You have to huge pay a tax on your server SSDs
for P2P piracy even if you have a business that nothing to do with that. \-
VAT taxes are a painful process. \- You have to pay 30% of your total assets
if you want to live abroad, even if it's only for a few years.

Sure, this project seems great but it's again gov. money (Caisse des Dépots)
wasted and it will only profit to some BS/political companies, so scr0w them.

~~~
hbbio
Sadly, as a French entrepreneur, I would love to contradict you. But
basically, you're right. It is much more difficult to create a startup in
France rather than in the US for instance.

Read PG's
[http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html)
in perspective and it still stands 7 years later, especially when considering
US vs. France.

~~~
pietro
Why do you even try? It doesn't make any sense to me. Moving to the UK or
Scandinavia would be trivially easy, and you'd instantly find yourself in a
super business friendly environment compared to France. Is it the food?

~~~
hbbio
Generally, yes. The quality of life in France is very high. If you are
employed by a big company or the state, you can have a perfect life.

But from the day you create a company, you discover problems one by one. My
first startup was French and I still love living in Paris. But I'm pretty
sure, unless things change, that I'll move out as most of my friends did.

------
theorique
While I applaud any efforts toward entrepreneurship, I can't help but think
that these "megaproject" efforts kind of miss the point.

By their very nature, startups tend to originate from grungy, grassroots
hackerspaces, undergrad dorms, shared apartments, graduate common rooms, and
so forth. Places where weird and innovative ideas get cross pollinated.

I mean, yeah, "let a thousand flowers bloom", and all. But if France continues
to be a place where 75% taxes are seen as a sane idea and bureaucracy holds
sway over innovation ... well, good luck.

~~~
fab13n
There are many things to fix in France to encourage start-ups, indeed. And
containing bureaucracy will be harder than tax issues IMO.

However, what's very important in this endeavor this that it's 90% financed by
Xavier Niel, a single private entrepreneur who's specialized in blowing up
bureaucratic / oligopolistic businesses. He's pioneered minitel services
(including sexual content, which got him some flak), then commoditized high-
speed ADSL (we've had tens of Mbps for €30 for nearly a decade), more recently
cellular phone (no contract, no subsidized phone, unlimited calls, 3GBytes of
data for €20), has started messing with education
([http://www.42.fr](http://www.42.fr)), and now incubation.

I'd have been _very_ skeptical of this without Niel's control over it. With
him, I tend to be hopeful.

~~~
bsaul
same here. i was skeptical of Niel as well, but with 42 he really showed that
he was honest with his intention to change the country's mentality.

i also saw an interview of fleur pellerin the other day and she seems like a
"hands in the dirt" person. that's a real change from previous ministers in
her position.

that's really the first time i'm optimistic about a state sponsored big
project.

~~~
touristtam
What is that 42.fr website like? I mean there are tones of useful resource
online for wannabe developer. So I don't really get what this one has to be so
special. Is it because it is all in French?

~~~
cocoflunchy
It's actually a free physical school dedicated to teach programming, open to
anyone who is 18 to 30. The website in itself is not very important.

You can read the press release in English here:
[http://www.42.fr/42-revolutionary-computer-training-free-
and...](http://www.42.fr/42-revolutionary-computer-training-free-and-open-to-
all/)

------
VeejayRampay
Let me be the classical Frenchy (i.e. never happy) here and point out that as
long as the tax code, red tape and overall overwhelming paperwork
entrepreneurs in France have to deal with won't be reduced or greatly
simplified, having big incubators will be a nice touch but the road to growth
will still be paved with unnecessary hurdles.

The task at hand is HUGE, one that not so many developed countries have to
deal with, that is allowing SME/SMI and entrepreneurs to grow without hassle
while still preserving the quality of public service we've grown accustomed to
(which has a cost that everyone contributes to or is supposed to contribute
to).

I hope we find a good middle ground there, cause the startup culture in France
is still a decade behind compared to that of the US or Canada speaking for
examples I've experienced first-hand.

EDIT: Still an awesome prospect though, kudos to all the people involved.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Can you give examples of red tape/paperwork you'd like to see removed to help
entrepreneurs in France?

~~~
VeejayRampay
Let me clarify something first: I am not an entrepreneur myself. I don't deal
with said paperwork, the people I currently work for or have worked for in the
past do. I've had the same feedback from a lot of them, in small and bigger
companies.

Basically the complaints are always the same: it's not necessarily the amount
of paperwork, it's the fact that when interfacing with the various agencies
(regarding legal, financial, bank-related, employment or health issues) you
usually have to provide the same documents OVER and OVER (and interfacing with
people who are not always accountable to someone given the number of layers in
the French administration, creating a system where some people have a job for
life, don't understand that the "state" is all of us and don't give their
all).

It sometimes feels that it never ends and doesn't make sense. Since the system
in France is very centralized and since all the different agencies ALL depend
from the state, this should be centralized to a given location and then
dispatched to the agencies upon request.

The bigger problem anyway (if you call that a problem) is that your social
contract in France is that of a mutual network of citizens taking care of each
other through taxation. This is great when it comes to a lot of topics
(health, education, social services), but it naturally has a cost when you're
competing against the likes of the USA who have made a clear choice that the
private sector tends to come first. I've yet to think of a good way to have my
lunch and eat it but this more often than not puts our SME/SMI in a difficult
spot.

~~~
lrem
Oh yes, I remember during first year in France. Every time I visited back
home, I'd go to my local bureaucrats to get a few more birth certificates. It
seemed that every single desk in France needs one, obviously no more than 3
months old (as if my birth data changed so often). And that was even without
trying to start any business...

------
DanielBMarkham
This might be a good time to point out the differences between startup
incubators that work and those that work _politically_.

Political organizations do things to create political impact. In their terms,
a successful startup incubator would have a big building, be designed by a
great architect, have funding for hundreds of teams at a time, get funding in
memorable ways, and have lots of press-worthy events. In short, whatever it
takes to look good on television. Political organizations do things for
political reasons.

From what little we know, _actually effective_ incubators emphasize failure,
exist in a culture of mutual support, are part of a larger technically-
inclined ecosystem, nurture small teams, and exist as a really low-key,
ongoing creative chaos of conversations and contacts. In short, little and
somewhat trivial non-press worthy things that accumulate when added together.
This is why things like difficulty to start a business, or hire/fire
employees, get mentioned so often. It's not that any one thing is a deal-
killer, it's that a few dozen pains in the ass will destroy all the myriad low
level contributors you need for a good startup ecosystem to work. It all adds
up.

My goal here isn't to criticize the effort, simply to point out the difference
between things that are newsworthy and things that might actually make a
difference. I wish these Paris guys the best of luck in the world. Here's
hoping they can work through whatever obstacles they find.

------
forgottenpaswrd
I prefer down-top approaches like YCombinator than top-down, central planning
effort.

Ycombinator grew organically, as an experiment. This sounds to me like yet
another bureaucratic effort to replicate Silicon Valley.

Politicians always think big, they don't want to fix holes in the roads, they
want to make new super highways so everybody could see how great they are.

As European and entrepreneur I avoid France for any of my business work. Every
French person enjoys life, wants to work the less they could and they feel
entitled for everything. More than half the people there work for the
government and are more worried about their rights than what they could do.

They could care less about competing with the world, they are living by
increasing their debt, and believe that this is going to last forever, that
probably Germany will support their lifestyle.

Don't get me wrong, I love France, speak French fluently, have lots of friends
there.

~~~
cdavid
What a nonsense. Your facts don't even pass the smell test: around 25 % of
people in age of working work as a public servant.

As for the working less than possible and the comment regarding Germany:
French workers work more than German on average, thought that's likely skewed
because 'forced' part time is more prevalent in Germany
([http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS](http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS)).
The whole idea of # hours as a meaningful metric is not a good one anyway:
some of the countries from OECD that work the most ? Mexico, Turkey, Greece,
etc...

------
csomar
So there is 30.000m² of space, but it seems that most of it can't be used for
actual work. It'd have been more beneficial if they used the money to build a
building and have subsided apartments for start-ups. I think at a starting
stage, I'm more in need for work space than an auditorium or another
restaurant.

But this doesn't solve the problem for France. I'm (geographically) quite
close to France but will incorporate my next start-up in Hong Kong. No Visa,
much easier paper work, and easier to get a bank account; and also cheaper.

~~~
ecaradec
I agree, the building is beautiful, but it seems that there are no private
office, so you are required to pick up all your stuff everyday, you can't have
a good chair, or work on something other that a laptop. What do you do of your
inevitable paper work, taxes, etc... We have a whole cabinet of these here for
a 10 people shop. It's all fashion.

------
oscargrouch
I just wanna say:

Good Luck France(really)! We need different cultures, distinct point of views,
more tech jobs, and innovation

Also the Euro zone got to recover fast, we need this strenght, sophistication
and experience to help us all to get in a better future..

I know the path is difficult, but i wish you all the best!

Sometimes, just a little optimism, can do wonders!

------
netcan
Interesting, but I'm always a bit skeptical about projects that seem so
architecture-ey. I like architecture, but it usually can't create communities
or industries. It's like when cities decide to build artist quarters. It works
when there are already artists n the area.

The website & press release are all about the building. Who are these startups
1000 startups & why are they going to choose to be there over other places?

------
hrvbr
As an incubator, it will be judged on its results. One thing to note is that
there's a lack of available and affordable space in Paris. I live in the
middle-class suburbs, closer to the rural areas than to the center of Paris,
and will probably set my company (if it happens) here than in the tiny
overpriced offices of the city.

At least the government is using this huge building for small businesses and
not another museum or mall.

------
lhnz
The perfect location for a startup would have:

    
    
        1. Low cost of living.
    
        2. Low house pricing/rent. (As rent-seeking forces people into being wage-slaves.)
    
        3. Low regulation and bureaucracy.
    
        4. Low taxes. 
    
        5. Educated, creative, and risk-taking workforce.
    
        6. Ease of finance.
    

I see so many countries trying to compete in the startup ecosystem by just
trying to cargo-cult their way into it with a bit of investment and a brand.
Far too many are not fit for purpose because there is too much power held by
rent-seekers. It cannot be fixed by simply applying duct-tape to the problem.

Does anybody know a country which fits this specification?

~~~
untog
What about the perfect location for startup employees? New York has an
astronomically high cost of living, but it's not like people are somehow
tricked into paying it. It also has world-class transportation, social scene,
arts, etc. etc.

If you want a "low cost of living", you're going to pay the price for it in
another way. Your "educated, creative" workforce might not be all that
inclined to stay.

~~~
lhnz
That sounds correct, though there definitely has to be a location which is
somewhere in between the two polar opposites. I find it hard to believe that
Silicon Valley was always as expensive as it is now...

~~~
wes-exp
In the early days, leading up to the founding of Intel, one of Silicon
Valley's main features was that it was dirt cheap. In fact it was dirt; it was
farmland. This made it a reasonable base to set up chip manufacturing, which
needed lots of workers at minimum cost.

------
majc2
Really interesting, but a building != an incubator. Access to
capital/investors is key and its unclear from the article if this is something
they've got a plan to address.

~~~
ecaradec
Mr Niel is also the largest personnal capital investor in France.

------
swalsh
I had this dream a few years ago, that it would fun to move somewhere other
than the US, and start a business. I thought it was fun to experience a new
culture, and maybe provide something useful. One of places I looked was
France, because its the only other language i speak. The immigration laws
seemed overwhelmingly difficult for someone like myself (I have a great
engineering job in the US, but no degree).

In the end, I got married and bought a house. A different dream I suppose.

~~~
subsystem
It's pretty difficult to immigrate to most "attractive" places without a
degree, the US included.

------
demallien
Ha! I bet Free employees (Free is Xavier Niel's main business) are a bit
ticked off - Free is renowned for being cheap with regards to it's
employees...

~~~
conradfr
ex Free here, yes Free is cheap (hence the ex).

And people don't understand that 42 is another way to bring cheaper developers
in the market.

------
apierre
It will not happen/work while Hollande is president

~~~
regisfoucault
It will when Niel will be ;)

~~~
ashernor
He doesn't seems to be liked by politicians ; neither does he seems to be fond
of them.

------
CmonDev
Let's put a bunch of geeks into a cozy office and let's see what happens!

------
telephonetemp
So, how long does it take to learn enough French to be dangerous :-) if you
don't speak any Romance language?

~~~
bsaul
from english to french i would say a year. but that means you're completely
immersed ( 0 english speaking).

now the great advantage with IT is that most people speak english, and most
technical words are english.

------
VMG
Are they still legally obliged to call computers _ordinateurs_ and use
_Megaoctet_ over there?

~~~
medlazik
You know most people outside your country speak a different language than
yours?

~~~
VMG
People speak other languages than German?? I'm amazed!

------
smandou
3 years... this is definitely French. By the time, a dozen of bigger projects
can show up in the world.

------
gbraad
Enough time for any other city to become the largest incubator in, e.g. 2015

------
pauletienney
Magnifique

