
Rare Persian manuscripts dating back to 13th century now online - bookofjoe
https://www.loc.gov/item/prn-19-036/
======
smnrchrds
Wow! This is great.

For those who are not familiar with Persian, it helps to understand that
Persian went through _Old - > Middle -> New_ transition long before English
did. While a 10th century English text, e.g. Beowulf, is completely foreign to
a modern English reader, a 10th century or newer Persian text is accessible to
modern Persian readers. These are not ancient books only academics can
understand and care about. You can find copies of Shahnameh and Hafez in many
Iranian households, but some of the lesser-known ones are indeed rare.

~~~
nn3
That implies that Persian is changing slower than other languages? Or is
Germanic/English/Latin the outlier?

~~~
hannasanarion
Language development changes in speed with the linguistic landscape. Persian
saw its fastest changing in the 8th century during the Ummayad conquest, when
Arabic became the dominant language of the ruling class.

Similarly, English saw its fastest changing in the 12th century during the
Norman conquest, when French became the dominant language of the ruling class.

In both cases, most of the core vocabulary and grammar survived, but with
enough influence and new words that it is hard for speakers after the change
to understand writings before the change.

My understanding from Persian friends is that Rumi is about as understandable
to modern Persian speakers as his contemporary, Chaucer, is to modern English
speakers.

Whan that Aprille with his shours soothe

The droughte of March hath perced to the roote

And bathed evry vein in switch liquour

Of which vertu engendyred is the flour...

~~~
pohaku
Yes, but on the other hand, original lyrics by Hafez, Rumi, and others are
commonly used, unchanged, as lyrics for contemporary Persian songs, even for
full-on rock songs, dance music, love songs, etc. I haven't heard any songs in
the Hot 100 using lyrics by Chaucer lately.

~~~
dalbasal
In part, this is probably because old Persian poetry/song traditions were more
modern, compared to english poetry from the same period. They had a strong,
very old literary tradition. The English didn't, until a bit later. Chaucer
was part of building it.

The musical/poetic sensibilities of old/middle English are way too different
to ours.

The Bible (especially in Hebrew) can also easily be plagiarized, and you'll
find lots of lines/poems that work "as is" in a pop song.

Eg, rivers of babylon, boney m.

------
mdani
wow, this is amazing. Reading Qazwini's Padshahnama.

Even though I am a full time engineer like most others here, I had an interest
in history so I learned to read Nastaliq hand written script and basics of
Persian grammar online (had no knowledge of Farsi when I started). A lot of
collections are now online so the first-hand sources are much more accessible
now.

I still have issues deciphering the full meaning or reading an old hand which
is beyond my basic skills. Anyone willing to help or know a good book/site
that will help me in deciphering these old manuscripts (Persian or Arabic)?

~~~
pohaku
You should be able to use a site like ganjoor.net, which contains most
classical Persian texts, in Persian only, but in modern type (as opposed to
simply being a picture of an ancient or modern manuscript page). We've made
heavy use of these sites over many years and been very happy. Errors seem to
be extremely rare. Keep in mind though, that there will almost certainly be
differences, often major, between whatever manuscript you are looking at and
whatever modern edition is the one that's been typed into ganjoor.net (or
another similar site). For another approach, there are academic texts to help
you learn to read old handwritten scripts. As for deciphering the full meaning
(bearing in mind that there may be many layers of meaning and lots of puns and
other wordplay), that just takes a whole lot of work. We (my partner in
reading for 13 years and I) just start at the beginning of a work (say,
Nezami's Khosrow and Shirin) and take it line by line, using dictionaries,
grammars (though we pretty much have all the grammar down now), and
translations. We use the footnotes, too, in the back of the contemporary
editions in Persian. We get the Persian books from Persian on-line bookstores,
most of which seem to be in LA. Congratulations for getting as far as you have
on your own. Amazing!

~~~
eternalban
That is a great site.

Also see:
[http://www.sufism.ir/MysticalBooks.php](http://www.sufism.ir/MysticalBooks.php)

English translations are here:
[http://www.sufism.ir/MysticalBooks(11)-en.php](http://www.sufism.ir/MysticalBooks\(11\)-en.php)

------
walrus01
For anyone who hasn't studied it, I highly recommend picking up a few history
books on the Mughal empire. If you've ever wondered why there's so many Farsi
words in modern Urdu and Hindi, there's your answer...

~~~
vardhanw
Any recommendations?

~~~
plinkplonk
"Emperors Of The Peacock Throne" by Abraham Eraly

"Rebel Sultans" by Manu Pillai is a great complement, focusing on the Deccan,
with a lot of material on how Iranian culture and politics influenced Indian
history.

------
ArtWomb
Treasure. Shah Namah alone is essential literature.

Would be even interested also in digital collections of Persia circa 500 BC.
During Achæmenian dynasty, Zorastrian priesthood, Kingdom of Bactria, the
origins of Dualism ;)

~~~
brianjoseff
Any preferred english translation for shahnameh? Would love to gain some
exposure to foundational Persian literature.

~~~
pohaku
Most current-day readers might prefer Davis, but the best in my eyes is that
by the two brothers Warner: "Between 1905 and 1925, the brothers Arthur and
Edmond Warner published a translation of the complete work in nine volumes,
now out of print."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahnameh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahnameh)
I read classical Persian, I've read most of the Shahnameh in Persian and
taught parts of it to English-speakers, and have been amazed by the art of the
Warner's work and the depth of their understanding.

~~~
pohaku
I should have mentioned that the Warner's translations are available on-line.
Here's V 1:
[https://archive.org/details/shahnama01firduoft/page/n6](https://archive.org/details/shahnama01firduoft/page/n6)

------
theobeers
Digitization projects like this are such a boon to scholarship. I haven’t
combed through the list of codices yet to see if there’s anything I might like
to investigate—but hey, now I can whenever I find the time. I’ve had to plan
international trips to visit manuscript libraries, without being sure what
awaited me. (Don’t get me wrong, that’s a lot of fun in its own way. But what
if I come across something unexpected, and I only have a week in town, and I’m
not allowed to photograph any of the materials?)

------
bklaasen
If this kind of thing floats your boat, I can highly recommend Peter Hopkirk's
"Foreign Devils on the Silk Road: The Search for the Lost Cities and Treasures
of Chinese Central Asia".

[https://www.bookdepository.com/search?search=Find%20book&sea...](https://www.bookdepository.com/search?search=Find%20book&searchTerm=Foreign+Devils+on+the+Silk+Road%3A+The+Search+for+the+Lost+Cities+and+Treasures+of+Chinese+Central+Asia)

------
walrus01
One of the interesting historical tidbits about the greater Persian empire...
Until it became a Russian/Soviet client state, the area that is now Tajikistan
used Farsi script for all "educated" written word records, books, letters,
etc. It was well within the boundaries of the greater historical Persian
empire.

The spoken dialect of Persian in Dushanbe today is not extremely different
from what they speak in Kabul. Mostly differences in accent, pronunciation,
some casual slang.

But starting around 1920, the russians mandated an official government and
school system switch over to the Cyrillic alphabet, along with teaching
Russian language as the language of "math, science and higher learning". So
now Farsi is written with Cyrillic there.

Music videos produced in Dushanbe remain highly popular in Afghanistan.

------
soheil
I wonder if this is a good faith effort on part of the current administration
to find new common ground with the Iranian gov't. Nevertheless, an incredible
contribution.

~~~
omegaworks
The head Librarian of Congress is appointed for 10 year terms. The present
one, Carla Hayden, was appointed by Barack Obama in 2016.

------
mitchtbaum
Any standout medical texts?

------
ngcc_hk
more interest in the Persian influence to Jews and their religion, as it is
the Persia that allow them to go back home after Babylon occupation. Bible
mostly dated back to this time at least the final editing. Wonder any good
lead to this era culture.

~~~
eternalban
"A comparative study between the Babylonian Talmud and the Middle Persian
texts":
[https://spectrum.library.concordia.ca/984143/7/Ehsani%20Chom...](https://spectrum.library.concordia.ca/984143/7/Ehsani%20Chombeli_PhD_F2018.pdf)

"Encyclopedia Judaica: Talmud & Middle Persian Culture":
[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/talmud-middle-
persian-c...](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/talmud-middle-persian-
culture)

"The Iranian Talmud: Reading the Bavli in Its Sasanian Context"
[https://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/toc/15179.html](https://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/toc/15179.html)

------
yumraj
I wonder if the modern day Iran would allow publishing a book with a cover
like the one shown. Gives you something to think about...

~~~
Gibbon1
A while ago I read that after the revolution the new Shiite run government
found themselves in charge of a lot of 'non Islamic art'. The interesting
thing is they stuffed it all away in a warehouse instead of destroying it. And
now recently have been making it available.

Edit: [https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-tehran-museum-of-
con...](https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-tehran-museum-of-contemporary-
art/)

