
How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014) - adamnemecek
https://time.com/956/how-amazon-crushed-the-union-movement/
======
Kocrachon
As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think
that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching
what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this
point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired
due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager
position, because of seniority ruling, and they gave it to a guy who was fired
and then unfired (thanks to the union) for having a secret nap room behind
some machines.

I know unions have done a lot of great in the past, but I rarely see much good
coming from them anymore. Of course this is all anecdotal, but I've had
nothing but bad experiences with them in my life.

~~~
stale2002
The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join
them.

Fine, join whatever private organization that you want.

But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out
rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my
own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on
everyone.

~~~
elicash
Maybe you're special. And contracts can even be negotiated with a group to
recognize individual performance! But the data is pretty clear that when
workers bargain collectively, they can negotiate higher pay and better
benefits.

~~~
scoofy
I think the real issue is what "benefits" means. If benefits means healthcare,
then i'm all for it. If benefits means it's nearly impossible to fire someone,
or that seniority trumps performance, then it seems more like it will
negatively impact many workers than it is supposed to benefit.

~~~
elicash
If that's true, that should make it easy for you to work with your coworkers
to allow more lax rules about firing when negotiating and in return -- since
management will surely be happy too -- you can probably get management to
negotiate something that your coworkers would prefer!

------
tclancy
Oh Hacker News, you beautiful people, let me tell you a quick story, because I
am in the mood to tell a story in this current country I live in where we are
going to make things Great Again by restoring industrial jobs, as though
industrial jobs were ipso facto wonderful, high-paying things. As opposed to
dangerous, low-paying shit work that killed the people who showed up 6+ days a
week until they all looked at each other and decided not to accept the terms
that had been decreed to them.

We didn't used to have great jobs for high school-educated folks, we used to
have unions. Because lots of people earning 0.05x joining together are the
only way to make things fair when woking for a person earning X. Or 10x.

But that only applies to the slob packing a box to send you a fidget spinner
thing. Not to you brilliant coders working in Silicon Valley, obvs. Except
here's a thing: I worked for at a 8-to-5 for years before going out on my own
for the last decade. And now I can't seem to go back, because all the full
time gigs I find quote me $US125-150k. And I make about twice that as a
contractor. Nothing fancy, I haven't found some wonderful niche, I just ask
for my rate and get it and work. And even after accounting for paying both
sides of Social Security taxes, I make 2x the top end of whatever
StackOverflow survey you want to look at.

I'm not amazing, I'm just a guy who got a decent education that was paid for
in large part by my mom's salary as a teacher. Which was a result of her
efforts in a union that had to go out on strike some times. Unions aren't
perfect. No organization of humans ever will be. But regurgitating "facts"
about why unions failed that have been drilled into you by popular media isn't
a way to overcome that. It's a way to get screwed. Good luck.

~~~
s_m_t
Isn't being a contractor like the complete opposite of being in a union?

~~~
ghthor
Their statement is that as a contractor they are my empowered to negotiate
better rates then as a full time employee. I believe this is a attempt to say
that if we, software engineers, utilized a union we'd be able to negotiate
better pay for ourselves.

~~~
tclancy
Yeah, that. From now on I am going to wait and let you give better responses
than my own. Please don't go on strike.

------
losteverything
Without my union experience i could not earn a living that i earn today.

The union i belong to has features that were earned/bargained for over years.

When i worked in tech we often wished we had some if the earned "rights" i now
have.

No forced Overtime; overtime after 8 hours in a day.

Guaranteed 40 hours a week.

No work before 6am or after 6am (or else premium pat)

No Sunday or holiday work

72% benefits paid by company

Part if a 2m plus benefit plan (great coverage)

Holiday and sick pay earned as we go; 15, 19 or 26 days off a year depending
on length of service.

No-layoff clause after 4(or 6)years

In my union there is absolutely no advancement opportunity and we dont get
rich.

In tech we looked down at bargained employees - but now i think it was jusy
not understanding them

The union machinery is vastly different than the rank and file..their only
goal is extracting $$$ from union members.

But now there are many poor suffering delivery people who just dont know how
much power they hold collectively if they decide to disrupt the status quo.

If all uber drivers said FU and banded together - uber is NOTHING without the
drivers - they would hold enormous power.

Same for Amazon workers.

It just is the existine aflcio and other unions don't represent the drivers
etc. They cant because they dont fight the fight

If the honeymoon the disrupters are having now is broken it will be by
organizing the downtrodden driver, part timer, giger, and servant of the rich

------
fixxer
Looking through the comments, I see a combination of anecdotal evidence about
Unions being bad/good and a few (very logical) statements about how collective
bargaining leads to higher wages & benefits.

Here are my two pennies:

Private sector unions are great for collective bargaining, though I prefer
they abstain from broad political platforms (immigration, for example), as
these are so far removed the intent of the union. I tend to view these Unions
as being political vehicles first, collective bargaining agents second. That
isn't a compliment.

Public sector unions are awkward in that tax payer is not represented at the
bargaining table. They should be restructured to make bargaining comparable to
the private sector case (or reverse Aboud).

My personal experiences with Unions are very negative.

In the first experience, in SoCal in the early 90s, I saw first hand when the
Teamsters moved to unionize drywall framers. My dad was a small scale
developer in the San Gabriel Valley and during a protest, a Teamsters boss on
a megaphone encouraged a mob of picketers to run through the project with
hammers and destroy recently hung drywall. My dad also received death threats
and we had a rock thrown through a window.

My second experience was doing campaign targeting for AFSCME. The people I met
from that org were in the extreme far left part of the political spectrum (as
in "Stalin had some good ideas"). Take from that what you will.

~~~
chimeracoder
> Private sector unions are great for collective bargaining, though I prefer
> they abstain from broad political platforms (immigration, for example), as
> these are so far removed the intent of the union. I tend to view these
> Unions as being political vehicles first, collective bargaining agents
> second. That isn't a compliment.

The feature you're describing is not an accident. Lobbying for restrictive
immigration laws (not just political platforms in general, but that specific
platform and issue) is the exact reason that unions like the AFL originally
gained the size and political power that they have today.

~~~
fixxer
Things have changed:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_policies_of_Americ...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_policies_of_American_labor_unions#Change_in_attitude_of_the_AFL-
CIO)

------
dugditches
I've only seen new Unions end badly in places doing so.

Companies just move the work elsewhere. As now companies are often owned by
bigger companies/have multiple operations. So it's much easier to do so.

Managers are often overworked/overpressured to perform, get by with less,
competing with foreign companies with 'free' labor. And some Workers are jaded
by the old Auto Factory days their parents worked. Makes for very toxic
environments.

~~~
cantankerous
The problem you're describing is an effect of today's global capitalism.
Workers seeking a dignified income are not able to find that through
collective bargaining because free movement of capital allows management to
relocate to cheaper markets relatively quickly.

One wonders if the system is worth keeping around in its current form if so
many people get screwed by it. What do we have an economic system for, anyway?

------
powera
This is more a story of "Why the Union movement has been dead since the
1980s".

Amazon employs tens of thousands of people. These people are trying to
organize 27. And failing.

------
spenrose
Pairs well with Bezos' request for philanthropic ideas:
[https://twitter.com/JeffBezos/status/875418348598603776](https://twitter.com/JeffBezos/status/875418348598603776)

~~~
tanderson92
Relevant:
[https://twitter.com/DemSocialists/status/875511888049778688](https://twitter.com/DemSocialists/status/875511888049778688)

------
losteverything
Let me share a "concept" in my union.

It's n against y.

"It's 15 against 1"

You dont have to be in a union to be able to gather together for the common
Good.

So lets say your "manager" tosses out some ridiculous rule and each person
individually thinks it stinks.

With the right leader, if you simply say "its us against you." and let them
know you dont have a concern about consequences, it will get you very, very
far.

Be daring. Be challenging. Dont get walked on. Stand up for what is right.

Having a union frame of mind can actually help.

