
The difference between iPhone + Android:  Great since day one  - thesethings
http://www.marco.org/769340032
======
irrelative
The hatred of linux on the desktop is terribly cliche, especially on a site
targeted towards hackers. Linux on my desktop is the greatest development
environment I've ever used, having played extensively with OSX and Windows as
well. I can easily install new libraries and "apt-get source" allows me to
tinker with existing software easily and immediately build and execute the
results. All of the development environment is thoroughly documented.

But now, some influential people start saying how much better their version
is. Specifically their closed, sealed-off, experience-driven version. Arguing
"ease of use" and "shiny end user experience" rings really hollow to me. I use
vim -- think I care about easy to use or shiny user experiences? -- and I use
it because it's a powerful tool for its job. I just don't get it when hackers
start telling other hackers that they should use a more restrictive
environment because it'll make them feel better or is easier to use. Instead,
ask yourself: is it the most powerful tool for the job?

So sure, tell your parents and siblings to buy an iPhone. Hell, use your
iPhone for anything you can -- it's a fantastic device. But stop telling
future developers that it's worth giving up control for rounded corners and
subtle shadows. And stop comparing its competition negatively to an
environment that I, and others, find superior to any other.

~~~
cmelbye
You completely missed the point of this article, which I find odd because the
author clearly explained why he compared Android with desktop Linux. By "Linux
on the desktop", he means Linux on regular Joe's desktop, not the hacker's
desktop. The author agrees with you that Linux is made for people like you
that want/need the extra control, etc, whatever. This is not what the majority
are looking for in a desktop distribution.

~~~
irrelative
I think it's a little harsh to say that I "completely missed the point" of
this article. I get it -- Apple products are very polished and carefully
designed and the Android lacks that polish but is feature rich. Is that an
accurate description, or did I completely miss something else?

Marco is a developer with some very successful products, and I really respect
his work. I feel that makes him influential in the hacker community and this
post did make it rather high on HN. However, respecting Apple's products has
gone too far when I can barely tell it from a PR piece. I don't know what it
is, but it's not news.

I really don't want to begin discussing regular Joe's desktop experience --
summarizing people into 2 camps trivializes the actual wants and needs of a
computer user. What I can tell you is that on a site devoted to hacker news,
this post seems like 'dog bites man' with an easy shot at a strawman.

I don't mean this to be a biting criticism. As a developer, I just wish that I
had started using linux earlier because I would have learned a lot more and it
would be more second nature. Out there, someone 10 years younger than me is
being turned off from using linux on the desktop because of posts like this,
and that's a shame.

~~~
MrFoof
_"I really don't want to begin discussing regular Joe's desktop experience --
summarizing people into 2 camps trivializes the actual wants and needs of a
computer user."_

You can put people into two camps about most anything -- enthusiasts, and
everyone else.

This applies to cooking. Cars. Television. Sports. Video games. Interior
design. Phones. Music. Architecture. Computers. Gardening. Reading... and I'm
running out of objects by looking about my apartment, but the crux is that
some people give objects and activities a large amount of attention when
compared to the vast majority of the population - that doesn't give a rat's
tail about anything beyond the most basic functionality.

Many developers, or at least the ones that frequent forums on computing
topics, are just that - enthusiasts. They are very savvy, very passionate, and
sometimes considerably out of touch with everyone who doesn't care nearly as
much. There's a distinct difference between someone who waits months and
months for a specific type of TV to come out, pays 4x as much for it compared
to other TVs for its size, and can take advantage of all the features they
paid for. This isn't surprising as they've become a bit of a domain expert on
the points that relate to their needs. However most people just want the
biggest, flattest TV they can buy for the lowest price.

Would I like random mass storage on the iPhone? Sure, why not. My mom? My
mother after 17 years still doesn't know what directories her files end up in
(Profile\My Documents or \Profile). She has my father assist her in getting
her music on her iPod. Recently I said, "Mom, you use a computer every day.
You need to remember where (Windows, OS X) puts your files" in which she
retorted, "No, I just want to send Lorraine some photos. I don't care how it
works."

And that's it. Most people want to just get something done on a computer. Most
people just want to drive to the store. Most people just want to have fun with
a video game and don't care how critically acclaimed it is. Most people just
want a roof over their head that looks familiar when compared to other homes
they've been in. Most people just want mustard to put on their hot dog and
aren't espousing the qualities of some mustard on online forums. And so forth.

Everyone else is an anorak. And that's fine as there's a market that caters to
them, whereas the rest of the population is still plumbing the first 10% of
depth. Everyone is passionate about different things. And most people aren't
passionate about most things.

------
axod
Apple is great on day one since it doesn't actually have many features.

I'm loving my Nexus One here, which has just been updated to 2.2 :) Different
ringtones (Anything you like) for sms/email/facebook, tethering, portable
hotspot! Flash? Simply in a different league than iPhone. The early Android
hardware sucked, but the N1 is pretty solid.

>> The Android ecosystem doesn’t seem capable of producing devices that are
great on day one. Yet Apple consistently pulls it off.

IDK, I've heard some things about the iPhone 4...

I had an iPhone for 3 years or so. It was a great device for what it did, but
the whole hassle of having to use iTunes. No removable storage. Can't just
stuff mp3's on it and use as ringtones. Can't just copy photos off it unless
you go through the right software. It's just a PITA. Not to mention the mass
of features that are just lacking on the iPhone but you take for granted on
Android.

~~~
cageface
_I had an iPhone for 3 years or so. It was a great device for what it did, but
the whole hassle of having to use iTunes. No removable storage. Can't just
stuff mp3's on it and use as ringtones. Can't just copy photos off it unless
you go through the right software. It's just a PITA. Not to mention the mass
of features that are just lacking on the iPhone but you take for granted on
Android._

Exactly. Mobile doesn't mean you can copy your stuff onto something portable.
It means you've got a window to your stuff in your pocket. Google's
information-centric approach makes a lot more sense than Apple's device-
centric approach.

~~~
axod
Yup. And over the air updates are obviously a good idea. I plug my Nexus One
into my computer when I want to, not when it needs to be plugged in (Unlike
the iPhone). It stands up as a device on its own.

~~~
nailer
That's what's holding me off on an iPad. Why buy a computer that needs to be
plugged into another computer?

------
iamdave
I've always admired some of the things marco writes about, this is not one of
them.

While article is a depressingly one-sided article (marco's prerogative,
totally fine with me), he misses a very big point, that for the sake of full
disclosure should at least be expounded upon beyond a dry-wit analogy to
Desktop Linux.

Android and iOS are moving in two different directions, and have benefits for
two different crowds. While they both enjoy their share of people who play by
the party lines, and will gladly pull out their iPhone or Android Phone the
minute the opportunity to use an application presents itself, it doesn't stray
away from the fact that the two platforms should not be compared to one
another.

Where the iPhone shines in brilliance, quality, and polish, Android reigns
supreme when it comes down to making the phone do what you want to the core.
_That is not, however in the least bit to say that hacking the Android
platform is inherent to its very existence_. I'm not going to beat the "one is
open the other is not" horse, because it's already dead, but it's very hard to
ignore the obvious that Android is a pragmatic platform that prides itself on
the berth of UX centric platform evolution where the iPhone gives users
features, and expects them to work with those features withdrawn from the
scope of downloading Apps.

~~~
xenomachina
Speaking of having benefits for different crowds: when he mentioned the "why-
is-this-here moments" his inability to understand that different people like
different things became pretty clear. Why is it so hard to believe that some
people may actually want a physical keyboard? Yes, it typically makes the
phone bulkier and/or uglier, but for some people the extra utility it provides
is worth it.

Apple's approach has often been "we'll tell you what's good for you". That's
how we got iMacs only available in Steve Jobs's favorite shade of blue (later
more colors were added) the green "resize this window to Apple approved
dimensions" button in Mac OS X, and now the one-size-fits-all iPhone.

~~~
samstokes
I don't think he was saying that _any_ physical keyboard is superfluous, so
much as that the Droid's keyboard, which is _terrible_ , is superfluous.

Something about the design of the Droid keyboard - the flat keys, the squishy
response, odd placements of some keys - makes it much harder to type on
accurately than my Nokia E71 whose keyboard is nearly half the size. And the
fairly decent predictive / autocorrect functionality of the Droid's virtual
keyboard gets deactivated when you're using the physical keyboard, so there's
nothing to rescue from typos.

It's actually faster to use the virtual keyboard, so you really do wonder why
the physical keyboard is there.

No-one who's used a Blackberry for a while will be in any doubt of the value
of a _good_ physical keyboard.

~~~
iamdave
Blackberry user here, and to this day I defend the primary point of me
continuing to use a physical, full qwerty keyboard is the responsiveness, and
the user centric design of the keyboard. Case in point of this having two
shift buttons on either side of the spacebar, both iOS and the Android
platform lack this logical affordance
(<http://www.useit.com/alertbox/application-mistakes.html>).

Great points, Sam.

------
barrkel
The iPhone was a poor device on day one. Limited to a poor carrier, it was a
poor phone, with only a handful of built-in apps, no GPS, etc.

The Nexus One was a quite a nice device from day one, and in my opinion better
than the iPhone 3GS.

But this is apples to oranges. The way a device is from day one is less
relevant when the race is long. What was important in competing with Apple's
first move was being first to a viable second place, which then iterates
rapidly in a "aim, fire, ready" style. If Google had waited until they had a
perfect second place, they'd still be starting with a tiny marketshare (hence
lack of apps etc.), and perhaps Palm wouldn't have failed as it did. But
Google didn't wait, and they're solidly in second place, and gaining.

~~~
cmelbye
Why would you even compare the Nexus One to the first generation iPhone?
That's like saying "The first computer in existence sucked, my Mac Pro is way
better."

~~~
axod
I went from iPhone 3G to Nexus One and it was a massive step up. From what
I've seen the Nexus One is still far superior in functionality to the iPhone
4.

~~~
thrillho
In what ways?

~~~
axod
It's about 100 little things...

I can take a photo/video and share it via email/youtube/facebook etc.

I can use any mp3 as a ringtone

I can have different ringtones for different things - sms/email/facebook

The browsers handling of windows is better - js doesn't stop running on
background windows.

The level of detail in things like settings - battery usage is awesome. The
other day my battery ran out in an hour, and I checked and found it was the
facebook app using it all.

Tethering / wifi hotspot is awesome - I'll be using it when I'm on holiday.

Also syncing with contacts / calendars is great. Maybe you can do that on the
iPhone easy enough, but it didn't seem like it. Now my wife just adds things
to our shared calendar and it shows up on my phone.

As with everything though it's probably best to just try one for a week and
see if you prefer it. I sold my iPhone 3G after I'd tried android for a day.

------
Zak
_lots of why-is-this-here moments (the Droid’s keyboard, the Nexus One’s
trackball)_

I see this sort of thing from reviews a lot. The Droid's keyboard is there
because there are customers who want it. There are plenty of Android phones
without them as well. It's perfectly reasonable that some people want a
smaller and more sturdy phone, but I won't buy a smartphone without a real
keyboard. The trackball is good for positioning the cursor when editing text.
It's faster than arrow keys and much more precise than the touch screen. I am
disappointed that they are rapidly disappearing, sometimes replaced by an
optical trackpad.

Android is about power and choice. The iPhone is about a great implementation
of a specific vision. Both are doing very well in the marketplace. The idea
that one is wrong and the other right is almost certainly mistaken.

~~~
cheald
The trackball doubles as a handy-dandy notification light, too.

------
kenjackson
While the article is correct that the iPhone was good on day one (not sure I'd
say great) and Android was seriously lacking. I think it's fair to say now
that Android and iPhone are running neck and neck. iPhone 4 leapfrogged
Android, but note, they actually had to leapfrog Android.

The new Android devices (EVO and Samsung Galaxy in particular) are just as
good, if not better in some respects than the iPhone. Froyo as an OS is better
and worse than iOS4. And from what I've heard about Gingerbread,I think
Android will again take a lead against the iPhone.

I think the real difference between Android and Apple is that Apple is good at
finding a market and coming out with a compelling product. That's in their
DNA. But what is also in their DNA is their ability to lose that market due to
slow innovation after day one. The only real exception here is the iPod. And
they won that battle on fashion as much as technology and UX.

If I were Apple I'd be really worried about Android. I think it's conceivable
that iPhone sales could plummet in a given year. I plan on getting a Galaxy
phone as my next one.

~~~
flyosity
Something isn't "just as good" if it can run down a full battery in one hour
simply by using a built-in feature, aka, WiFi sharing.

------
nir
Seems to me Android _is_ "Linux on the desktop". It's a user facing Linux-
derived operating system, and seems well on track to become the most widely
used OS in a few years.

Pure desktop Linux never took off, for various reasons (at least some of them
non-software related at all). It doesn't matter, the desktop is no longer the
main way we use an OS.

------
contextfree
Desktop Linux _has_ been getting better each year, though (at least on
average). If it still hasn't crossed the threshold of being good enough for
the mainstream, it's because their standards have also been increasing.

~~~
cookiecaper
Desktop Linux _is_ the best system around. It's not about quality. People
don't care about technical excellence, they care about _doing things_. And for
now, Windows offers the easiest way of doing things, because everything works
on it because a manufacturer will never release something that doesn't work on
the general swath of Windows computers.

Pretty much the entire appeal of Mac is a) no viruses/spyware (because nobody
writes viruses or spyware for Mac because its userbase is too insignificant to
target) and b) big icons and prettier colors, making it "easier" to use.

Windows is an institution. It doesn't just give way once something becomes
objectively superior; many systems have been superior to the their Microsoft
contemporary and Windows didn't magically crumble. It's about installed base.

~~~
contextfree
Didn't spell it out I guess, but "good enough for the mainstream" is here
meant to imply "... according to the criteria the mainstream actually cares
about".

------
man1sh
Just because iPhone doesn't have a physical keyboard - doesn't make physical
keyboards evil. Similar logic for trackball.

I have tried using physical keyboard on Blackberry and I felt pretty
comfortable. I bet other manufacturers would come out with better physical
keyboards. My flatmate has a Thinkpad with a trackball. Initially it was
pretty tough to control it. Trackball and physical keyboard isn't bad just
because I think it's bad.

So much from a Tumblr lead dev! I expected better.

~~~
vetinari
The red thing on Thinkpads is called trackpoint (or clit, for simplicity).
Trackballs are entirely different animals, it is a ball that you move (if you
remember old ball mouses, it is basically ball mouse turned on its back, with
bigger ball).

This post was brought to you by Thinkpad, with trackpoint as a sole pointing
device ;).

------
tomjen3
That is a retarded argument, and I expect better from marco.

It should be obvious that shipping with a broken copy-past is miles better
than shipping with none at all.

The iPhone wasn't good, because it only shipped with great features - it was
medicore, because it shipped without many of the features (flash, copy-past,
the ability to run multiple programs at the same time) that are needed.

It is much like homework - if you give a great title and fantastic abstract,
but zero content you should not get an A.

~~~
LukasMathis
>"It should be obvious that shipping with a broken copy-past is miles better
than shipping with none at all."

The problem with shipping broken features is that there is no pressure to fix
them. It's much easier to add new features than to fix existing features.
Every time there's an update to Android, there's a huge list of neat new
things in that release. On the other hand, I've never seen a list of things
that didn't work quite well in earlier versions or were a bit janky or a bit
confusing or inconsistent or user-unfriendly or complicated, but are now
fixed.

Google tries to improve Android by constantly adding new stuff. That's
exciting to people like us, but it will never turn Android into something that
is as consistent and polished as iOS. The things that bothered me in Android
1.6 are still mostly there in 2.2.

------
amix
It's a bad call to compare to Desktop Linux. A better comparison is looking at
"iOS vs. Android" as "Mac OS vs. Windows" - - The strategy for iOS is very
similar to the strategy of Mac OS and the strategy of Android is similar to
the strategy of Windows.

Longer down the road I think Android will have a much larger market share
(just like Windows) - - while iOS will provide a better and more streamlined
experience (just like Mac OS).

------
zmmmmm
It is silly to try and frame a comparison between iPhone and Android in
1-dimension. We could equally write an article criticizing the App Store and
say the difference is about freedom of expression. Or about quality of apps.
Or about power and flexibility. Or availability of media. Or hardware. Or half
a dozen other things.

Guess what folks, there are many various differences! Personally I choose
Android because I value the various dimensions on which it scores highly over
those where the iPhone scores highly. But don't try and pretend there is only
one dimension to this.

------
shimi
A friend of mine lend me is iPod Touch. To get it working with Wifi or connect
it to iTunes running on windows is a very painful process.

I didn't had these problems (No need using the iTunes in the first place)with
the G1, Motorola Droid, even my old N95.

So what is so great?

~~~
danudey
I've never had issues getting iPod Touches or iPhones working on WiFi;
likewise, connecting to iTunes has always been straightforward. What sort of
issues were you having?

------
martythemaniak
You know why people make stuff like this?
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg>

Because you can't just get an Android phone and use it and be happy with it.
There's always some hipster or yuppie or desperate-to-be-cool nerd that'll
start going on and on and on about how amazingly great their iPhone is, was
and always will be and how they have _taste_ which you, as a non-Jobs product
buyer, obviously don't. A lot of people like me _switched_ from the iPhone to
Android because we like it better, get over it. Also, there'll be more people
that like and use Android than iOS, get over that as well.

And since we're reaching for snarky old jokes (ie desktop linux), how about
this one: What can Android users do that iPhone users can't? Shut the fuck up.

~~~
judofyr
Well, to be fair, the same guy also make stuff like this:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAOtC9QfXac>

~~~
jacquesm
But why would you post it twice ?

Also, I've yet to meet my first 'Android fanboy', but I've met plenty of
Iphone fanboys in real life.

I'm sure they exist but either not around here or they're not as much 'in your
face' about it.

~~~
danudey
I've never met any Android fanboys yet either, but then I've never really met
someone with an Android phone that liked it.

I've met a lot of people who've switched to Android (mostly by buying the
Nexus One) and sold it within a week to go back to their iPhones though. I've
met a few people who bought non-Nexus-One phones but didn't like them and
wanted to switch.

It seems like in Vancouver, everyone either has a feature phone, a Blackberry,
or an iPhone, except that one kid I saw on the bus with a Palm Pre.

------
jscore
I'm not an Apple fanboy by any means or measure, but I can't help but agree
with this post.

I had the original iPhone and every feature just worked from day one; I didn't
need any updates or anything. And yes, I could live without cut and paste.

I now have Nexus One, and although I love and do not plan on going back to an
iPhone at any point, I still think the iPhone is just a more complete, more
polished phone. It's a perfect mass market device because 99% of the consumers
do not care about tweaking their device or changing ROMs.

I had Ubuntu on my Dell Inspiron, but I have gotten my MBP back from a friend.
MBP is better. Things work together better, and I don't need to tweak a
million things or change themes. I just want to do my work.

------
billmcneale
I imagine a world where everybody would be forced to use a Newton, an Apple
TV, a Mighty Mouse and an Apple keyboard...

Apple makes great phones and great computers but saying that everything they
create is great from day one has gone too far on the fanboy dark side.

------
diziet
I don't think android is like the desktop linux situation. My mom & dad are
happily using android phones, paying for all these wonderful apps and enjoying
the phone. They would not really have the same experience with any linux
installation.

------
Androsynth
The problem with Apple is that if you use an iPhone, you are a smarmy cunt; if
you don't use one, your a hater and a conformist.

------
xcombinator
Linux is getting better each year, Android is getting better each year.

But MS is getting better each year too, like Apple.

The main difference is that MS and Apple improve he overall user experience
while Linux and Android center themselves on geeks. Witch is great, for geeks,
but not as good for other people.

On Linux I can easily record any sound-video a program plays-displays , I
can't do it on windows or Mac because of DRM. It's great for me, normal people
don't care.

People care about being able to easily classify their weeding photos using
face recognition tech like iphoto does. Linux could do it in complex( and more
powerful) ways that my mom can't use.

~~~
megablast
Sorry, you say MS is getting better? No. I would gladly go back to Windows XP
over 7. The only thing I like about 7 is the taskbar, everything else just
gets in the way or annoys me. Why MS feel like shuffling around everything in
the control panel every release I will never understand.

------
jasonlbaptiste
Re: the iphone and android points, i completely agree. Android will get there
in time and it's a great alternative (before android it was BBos or symbian,
yuck).

As far as linux desktop goes, it's more of an OEM problem. Ubuntu is getting
really close to being consumer friendly. Even if it WERE 110% consumer
friendly, there isn't even one OEM who produces a great linux machine. I'm not
talking Dell loading it on one random machine or other guys like system76.
Someone needs to step up and be the "apple of ubuntu/linux" (don't charge the
high high premium though).

------
Greyface
It depends on what criteria is used to judge greatness of course. By my
evaluation, the iPhone's notifications and multitasking UI have been horrible
since day one. That hasn't stopped Apple from oveloading push and local
notifications with third-party multitasking, all without much change to the
fundamental problems, making the experience worse over time. Marco's focus on
the simple and shiny, at the expense of the functional and robust, indicates
that we have different standards for greatness.

------
jsz0
The Linux on the desktop comparison feels right to me for a variety of reasons
but there are two important differences that create a more level playing
field: 1) Android comes preinstalled on the devices 2) People don't expect
10-15 years of legacy compatibility from SmartPhones. When you erase those two
barriers there's a lot more room for choice.

------
mhd
I wonder whether Marco used OS X 10.0 (or 10.1)…

------
NickPollard
I disagree with his assertion that 'great since day one' is unequivocally
better than the other - if I can get something earlier, but it's a little
rougher around the edges, that's often better - particularly since having
something out in the wild where people use it early means you can get good
feedback to help you improve the product and avoid horrible untested issues
slipping through (a certain antennae issue springs to mind).

Other than that though, his use of 'copy and paste' as an example is something
that really depends on perspective. He argues that 'copy and paste' is a
single isolated feature, and that Apple waited until they could make it great
since day one. However, if you looked at 'copy and paste' as merely an element
of a larger system, then launching that system without one of it's key
features makes it not so 'great since day one'.

------
stcredzero
I need more data. What else was, "Great since day one?" In particular, is
there anything that's not Apple that fits this? Toyota and Honda, maybe? My
Sennheiser wireless mics? The PS2? I'm looking around my apartment and I'm
having a hard time finding non-Apple stuff that fits that description. My
Gerber Suspension pocket tool fits the bill, I think. The Logitech VX
Revolution mouse does as well. I think about half of the "Great since day one"
stuff is made by Apple! Most everything else required tinkering. The BenQ
520MP projector just worked and was great. Ah, my old GE 2 alarm AM/FM clock
radio. That thing was cheap as hell, it's as solidly built as something can be
from plastic, and it just works great. Oh, and of course, my Nintendo DS! My
apartment is full of stuff that takes tinkering!

------
biafra
_The OS needs to be updated over the air_

Not true. I did all my updates with my computer.

------
lut4rp
I strongly believe that desktop Linux is just waiting for a paid, commercially
supported variant that comes with limited, supported hardware options.

That is, like Apple. Vertical integration.

~~~
bad_user
OS X is different ... it is based on Darwin, which is a kernel inheriting
parts from BSD ... but Apple fully controls its development and Darwin
maintains binary compatibility. Also when they released OS X, they also
distributed it with a compatibility layer for older OS 9 apps, and they also
shipped the Carbon APIs for legacy code.

Unfortunately the Linux kernel itself breaks binary compatibility quite often,
so you can't distribute binary blobs if you want to keep up-to-date (and you
want that, since newer kernel versions have more hardware drivers). Linux
distributions in general have a bad history on maintaining backwards-
compatibility.

And without third-party proprietary applications being distributed for this
"commercially supported" OS, it's not going to make any inroads.

~~~
vetinari
Mac OS breaks compatibility too, so there is nothing that could be better than
on Linux side.

Actually, if you really care, you can still run a.out and glibc5 ELF userland
binaries on Linux. On the other side, any m68k or ppc for classic apps are no-
go on OSX, as well as some ppc-for-osx. Also for third party drivers, you need
version for specific OSX point release, they are not generally very
compatible.

There are also entire classes of hardware that are unusable on OSX, period. (I
remember wasting particularly lot of time on trying to get IrDA run on OSX
with a little bit more than just IRCOMM. On Linux, it worked out of the box.)

------
thewileyone
I can agree that Apple does great things from Day One like the Macintosh and
the iPhone. But Apple also has a tendency to be complacent and allow the
competition to catch up. That's what's going to happen with the iPhone and
Android, like it did with the Macintosh and Windows.

Great at Day One or not, the customer will eventually select freedom of choice
and this is where Apple will lose.

------
cookiecaper
I totally despise this article. It contradicts open-source philosophy
completely. It falsely and stupidly implicates Linux. It compares two very
different kinds of things. And I know lots of people who thought their Android
phone was great on day one -- including myself. So what's the deal here? This
is frustrating, horrible low-brow fanboyism

------
siglesias
Perhaps a longer blog post needs to be dedicated to this, but I feel like much
of the debate between iOS and Android focuses on the "fundamental differences"
between Apple's particular approach (or call it philosophy) to mobile
computing, and Google's. This might be a bit controversial, but I find it NOT
an open and shut case that an "open, customizable" platform is an advantage.

Throughout history we've been struggling with the Google/iOS problem, but the
debate took on different forms: totalitarian versus democratic government,
planned economy versus "free" economy, big government versus small government.
The question is: should certain kinds of decisions affecting a state be
centralized or dispersed? In theory, dispersed power (among citizens, or
users) should win the day, IF NOT for inevitable market inefficiencies
(information asymmetries, NOISE, emotional human irrationality) and malicious
private agents who prey on the uninformed. There is an argument to be made
that computing platforms fall under this debate. I would argue that Google's
open platform also makes it vulnerable to far too many exploits: viruses,
buggy, crashing, battery-draining software, and adware that might
indiscriminately display pornography. All for certain powers of
customizability that I (and many others) find trivial. Like choosing system
fonts and having video wallpaper.

If everybody in the world had the means to discriminate between spam software
and non, then I would think that a system under which anybody could post
software targeting any part of the system would be an excellent thing. But
they can't. WE, as hackers can. Maybe. But for a majority of the people, they
must enter into a "social contract" with a curator wherein decisions of
quality and security are made for them in exchange for a price premium equal
to or less than the value of time saved in "not worrying" about malicious
code. Beautifully, this space is evolving to a cycle of two year hardware
refreshes (less than that for hardcore users), and these serve as market
voting mechanisms for the job or efficacy of the curator (in this case, Apple
and Google).

In the United States (which some would argue is the apotheosis of
enlightenment thinking of the government problem) we have deferred legislative
power to a body that we pay to do the thinking for us. We cycle through this
body periodically democratically (as we can in mobile). We certainly don't
have time to ponder over the minutiae of certain articles of legislation. In
the same way, I would argue, I don't have time to discriminate between one
piece of software for compatibility, reliability, security and quality, and
another making nearly identical claims to functionality. Maybe you do, and
that's why you choose Android. Meanwhile, I'll trade certain features for
peace of mind.

------
beej71
I have a macbook pro and an iPhone and neither has been great since day one.
How do you explain that?

~~~
zygen
Well, that's just like... your opinion, man.

------
cjensenius
Another sucker on the Apple teet

------
bradendouglass
Sorry but the comment thread started with: "The hatred of linux on the desktop
is terribly cliche..." has nothing to do with the actual content in question.
Warning for all the HN Noobs. Comments beware!

------
billmcneale
TLDR: Marco is not a big fan of choice in the market place.

------
stretchwithme
I haven't bought either Android or Iphone.

I lean towards Android when I think about how cool it is to modify the OS to
make it do cool things.

But when I think about what product I would recommend to family, I have to
recommend the iPhone over Android.

They don't care if its open. They care that someone is ultimately responsible
for making sure that its going to work now and that it has a future.

The choices they need to make when they buy an Apple product are few and
clear. When I've had problems with an Apple product, Apple Care takes care it.

If there were an Android store, it would be on the back of a semi and would
move to a different mall parking lot each week.

------
cjensenius
How can you claim to create the worlds best devices, yet cannot pull off
copy/paste. Its not exactly the traveling salesman problem...

------
nexneo
pace of development and somewhat closed development make android different
then desktop Linux.

iPhone's big plus is providing value for long period of time. Still today
original iPhone is useful device and except 3d games most of new apps can be
used too. Which is great in fast changing market.

------
artiom
I'm happy with my x10 mini from day 1.

------
Tichy
Please go away

------
papertiger
To each their own. "Great" is subjective.

------
periferral
can we get by a week in HN without fanboy posts?

~~~
periferral
to clarify some misconceptions of this post

1\. great since day 1. Well no copy and paste for 2 years? and great since day
1. Contradictory?

2\. Hold Different? Great since day 1?

3\. Needs iTunes desktop software.

4\. No external storage options.

5\. No background (until pseudo support in os4, clearly not day 1)

6\. no open app store.

the list is never ending really. i sure hope the poster realizes despite these
significant shortcomings, he thinks the iphone is great since day 1

------
wildjim
Apple fanboi.

------
ergo98
Someone is channeling their inner-John Gruber, apparently.

The original iPhone had a mediocre display, a forgettable design, zero apps
(and, contrary to the revisionism that is now the rage, had zero plans on
every having apps at inception. Apple and AT&T saw apps as a unnecessary risk,
and web apps were the only solution), a terrible back-facing camera (and no
front facing camera, which in those early days was considered an egregious
oversight), and it was strangely 2G in a world that had already moved to 3G.

It succeeded because it was Apple. To say that it was "Great since day one"
should embarrass the speaker, and if Nokia, or Motorola, or anyone else
released that phone it would have been panned.

The latest iPhone needs to be cocooned inside a case lest you shatter the
good-looking-but-bad-engineering glass back or touch the untouchable antenna.
Great since day one?

It has a video chat application that inexplicably only works between iPhone 4
users on WiFi, which to most other companies wouldn't even classify as "beta".
Great since day one?

It has a notification system that is horribly crippled by the most generous
evaluation. Great since day one?

The iPhone is a gorgeous, gorgeous phone. It is the new trendsetter. It is not
without many flaws however, though it sits in that remarkable favored area
where flaws are glossed over. Indeed, it's telling that Apple's flaws only
become obvious to the faithful once the replacement is available. Suddenly,
you'll note, every Apple-head is talking about how the iPhone 3GS is dated,
feels plasticy and cheap, etc (Hey, I was saying that since it came out, but
of course as the deliverance from Apple it was impossible that could be true,
until the next deliverance).

These sorts of cult-religious screeds are an embarrassment to technology.

I mentioned Gruber earlier because this Marco guy is stealing his schtick.

~~~
thm76
I think what Apple is doing usually, and I think that's one of the points
Marco is making in the article, is that they only add features when they can
get them working very well.

They didn't have a use for a front facing camera, or could make it easy enough
to use, so they didn't include one. Now they have one because they were
finally able to implement video chat in an easy to use way (Face Time).

They didn't have copy and paste until they figured out how to make it as
elegant and easy to use as it is.

They didn't include 3G in the original iPhone because it would have affected
battery life too much.

They only introduced the SDK once the API was in a usable state and they got
the necessary documentation and infrastructure in place to support 3rd party
developers.

Face Time currently only works on WiFi, but from what I read about it it
actually works for Joe Average. On other phones you have to be a geek to
figure out which software to install and how to set it up.

For some people it is certainly valuable to have barely working bleeding edge
features on the phone, but for the 99% of users out there who're not
interested in tinkering with their phone Apple's approach makes a lot more
sense, IMO.

~~~
ergo98
>On other phones you have to be a geek to figure out which software to install
and how to set it up.

What? No you don't.

>They only introduced the SDK once the API was in a usable state and they got
the necessary documentation and infrastructure in place to support 3rd party
developers.

I have an acquaintance who has this bizarre tic that when he can't afford or
obtain something, and strangely feels defensive about it, he rationalizes his
self-perceived inadequacy by claiming that he was intentionally putting off
getting whatever he didn't have (girlfriend, BMW, leather couch...the list was
endless) until he could have perfection. It is doubly effective, in his mind,
because it also subtly denigrate people who did have what he didn't,
insinuating that they settle for second best.

Everyone, but apparently him, saw right through it, but it kept him feeling
good I guess.

I see this same rationalization with Apple. It essentially opines that if
Apple isn't doing something, it isn't because Apple is behind the
ball/lacking, it's somehow because everyone else is lacking.

