
Startup Visa coming to Canada April 1st - dmix
http://startupnorth.ca/2013/01/24/mission-accomplished-startupvisa-canada/
======
dmix
Relevant quote from the press release:

> Mr. Kenney said the government is partnering with Canada’s Venture Capital
> and Private Equity Association (CVCA) and the National Angel Capital
> Organization (NACO), which will identify members of their associations
> eligible to participate in the program.

So VC/angels get to decide who is eligible for the visa.

~~~
rayiner
Ever look back an on sector and see an unhealthy cooperation between
government and industry? It doesn't start with conspiracies; it starts with
well-intentioned programs like this one.

~~~
samuelelder
How is this an unhealthy cooperation? The financial support for this program
is entirely from the private sector and the government simply looks after the
background checks and admissibility, as they would for all immigrants anyway.

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3pt14159
If anyone is writing a post on this, I took some photos at the announcement
event of the Minister which are released under CC.

<http://500px.com/zachaysan/sets/startup_visa>

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jodib
It might be useful to consider life _after_ your startup emerges and becomes
successful. There are several advantages to owning a business in Canada:

-low corporate tax rate of 15.5%

-over the past 10-15 years, individual tax rates have steadily fallen. Roughly speaking, if you're making less than $150k, very comparable to the U.S. but there's tons of factors (including province, how you pay out - dividends vs salary, etc...)

-onetime capital gains exemption of $750k for selling your Canadian private business. Add your wife as shareholder and you're looking at $1.5m tax free.

-availability of tax credits to help fund innovative startups (it needs to be novel, non-obvious, and involve technical uncertainty at the outset - so a typical website stopped qualifying years ago - but perhaps underlying aspects might partially qualify)

-future stability. Whether U.S., China, Europe, (or other?) prospers in the future - they will likely be needing resources - which will likely exist in Canada, thereby ensuring a base of prosperity and tax revenue to fund infrastructure for many years.

------
throwaway1979
Now if CIC can just get their act together on speeding up spousal sponsorship,
I'd be a happy man.

Disclosure: I'm a Canadian in the US. Got married here (my wife's from Asia) -
now I can't move back to Canada until I figure out my wife's residency. From
what I've read, this takes 12 months+. Makes life very hard to plan.

Some context: the Canadian govt recently started a crackdown on fraud-
marriages. Unfortunately, it seems the CIC takes the view that you are guilty
until you prove yourself innocent.

~~~
chollida1
Oddly enough I have an old university roomate who works in this area for the
government. I've been told that the wait time is partially by design.

They will almost never act quicker than 6 months from the point of filling as
they've found that, surprise surprise, most shame marriages have a hard time
living together for 6 months or more:)

------
CanadaKaz
Happy to answer questions here re this. I worked for the gov't on this file
before starting my own company. The VC funds that sponsor are subject to
internal and peer review audit.

~~~
volandovengo
The article mentions angel capital being a possible helper. Do you know how
much needs to be raised?

Also - why the requirement on VC funds anyway? Shouldn't we be supporting
bootstrapped entrepreneurs as well?

~~~
CanadaKaz
Amount depends on VC, Angel, or Incubator stream. (There are three streams.)
The reason we did it this way is because we think gov't is bad at picking good
start-ups and that VCs, Angels, and Incubators are better. The funding is
minimal. (As low as $25K for angels for example.) We just want people saying
"this person is good, let them in" have skin in the game.

------
raquo
Announcement on CIC site:
[http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2013/...](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2013/2013-01-24.asp?utm_source=rss-
media&utm_medium=rss-eng&utm_campaign=generic)

And a bit more info:
[http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/backgrounders/...](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/backgrounders/2013/2013-01-24.asp)

I'm happy.

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grecy
Has anyone heard news of any other changes to Canada's immigration policy?

I know when the new minister got in (last year?) they said big changes were
coming, but as yet we have not seen much.

I just became a permanent resident, though my brother didn't qualify and was
forced to leave... he'd love to come back if he can find a way.

~~~
rimbo789
There have been some changes, however they so far (I think) have been
relatively minor. The Minister didn't change (It is still Jason Kenney).

Most of the changes have been to the refugee program and on 'cracking down' on
immigration fraud. (For example last year I think they did a big sweep of
fraudulent immigration lawyers)They are also changing the status of which
countries get to qualify for refugee status and who gets fast tracked in the
immigration system.

For some more detail/analysis read:
[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/has-jason-
kenney-b...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/has-jason-kenney-
balanced-immigration-reform/article7623935/?service=mobile)

I hope you find a way to get your brother back.

~~~
CanadaKaz
In the past year, basically every single immigration program to Canada has
changed. Here is the changes on the main economic class:
[http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2012/...](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2012/2012-12-19.asp)

~~~
grecy
Thanks.

It looks like the Skilled class still requires a letter of arranged
employment[1]

It's crazy, because my brother easily meets the 67 points required, but
without arranged employment he can't even apply. (I was the same, and ended up
being sponsored by the province of Yukon through my employer.. which took over
year)

[1] <http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who.asp>

EDIT: The whole thing is so confusing.
<http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who.asp> Says you must
have a letter of arranged employment before you can even apply... then a bit
further down it says that's one of the 6 selection factors and you can get up
to 15 points for it. I just filled out the online self-assessment as my
brother and got 68 points _without_ arranged employment. Can he apply or not?

EDIT2: Just spoke to CIC - it doesn't matter if you get 150 points, if you are
not in the PhD stream, or the arranged employment stream, you can not apply.
Fullstop.

------
j45
It is very encouraging that startups have been recognized as a viable route to
do something in Canada.

I hope in time and with success the visa can be expanded to include the
present reality in Canada that 98% of startups in Canada are self-funded and
don't get or use VC input:

[http://www.techvibes.com/blog/how-canadian-entrepreneurs-
fin...](http://www.techvibes.com/blog/how-canadian-entrepreneurs-finance-
their-startups-2012-08-30)

For the majority of the startup environment in Canada, this doesn't benefit
them right away.

Also interesting -- Small businesses are 98% of businesses in Canada:
[http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/smallbusiness/story/2011/10/...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/smallbusiness/story/2011/10/04/f-smallbiz-
by-the-numbers.html)

~~~
hhuio
The old visa, which this replaced, was for the self funded startups.....

This one is for the VC...

~~~
j45
I believe the previous vis was for businesses in general, and not specifically
tech startups like this one? Also, that visa required the person coming in to
bring their own money to start something.

~~~
hhuio
Another words, self funded.

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jacquesm
As someone who went through the 'entrepreneur route', which is not what this
start-up visa thingy is but it was a related program, it's _still_ Canada and
it is _still_ the Canadian government, as well as Canadian immigration:

Canada is a great country, lots of really nice people and amazing scenery.
Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary and Montreal (order of personal preference for
running a business) all have sizeable tech scenes and all have a reasonably
good access to the US market.

If you're Canadian you can very easily leverage your position into one that
translates into most of the pros and very few of the cons of living on the
North American continent.

If you're an outsider planning to move in things are substantially different.
The first thing that you'll notice is that there is a sizeable industry that
exists just to make money off new arrivals (aka immigration lawyers and
associated services). There are a lot of gotchas that nobody informs you about
(such as, for Ontario, applying for OHIP coverage immediately upon arrival,
wait one day too long and you're in deep trouble), there a lot of silly rules
and regulations that won't make sense to you if you're not from a country that
qualifies as a 'nanny state' and there is a lot to be learned about banking
and your 'credit score' if you are not Canadian and you do not have any
history. Banks are really hard to get any reasonable performance out of, there
are too few of them and their offerings are too uniform.

The Canadian government is saying 'A' but will actually do 'B', and it will do
this at length. In my case, with a guaranteed landed immigrant status in the
year 2002 it took until 2007 for me to finally give up on the whole process
and move back to Europe.

By then I'd had enough of the Canadian authorities and the fact that there are
only two seasons, winter and construction. If the government had kept their
promises of speedy processing for me and my dependants I'd be singing 'Oh
Canada' right now and I would have taken the snow into the bargain. As it was,
losing half a year per year to the elements (the first two years were spent in
Toronto, the last 3 on an island near Sault ste. Marie), having to deal with
uncertainty from the governments side, a dog-eat-dog attitude when it comes to
making money with people (which turns into making money off each other if
you're not very careful), a school that was outwardly secular but internally
dominated by religion and many more issues I'm reasonably happy to be back in
Europe.

There is lots of stuff wrong here but at least my status here is not
questioned with every move I make.

Fun fact: two weeks after shutting down the Canadian company, firing everybody
and moving back they came through with the paperwork and asked if we would
please come back...

Take home lesson: Beware of promises by the Canadian government, especially
when it comes to giving landed immigrant status to foreigners (forget about
citizenship, that's a different kettle of fish), even ones that bring tons of
business with them. The best I ever got out of them was a work permit for me,
but not for my spouse. Be prepared to be kept waiting (quite possibly for a
great _many_ years), and be prepared to file ever more paperwork at great
expense and expect the game to change while you're playing it. Great Eh? ;)

~~~
uladzislau
On the related note: Immigration backlog: Anti-fraud measures add years to
citizenship process [http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1319286--
immigrat...](http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1319286--immigration-
backlog-anti-fraud-measures-add-years-to-citizenship-process)

~~~
jacquesm
> “We feel like we are held hostage by the government,”

That exactly sums it up. Fortunately we had options, for many people in the
same process that is not the case.

~~~
ido
I had the same experience in the EU (Austria). After 8 years I was happy to
leave and finally be able to stop worrying about visa issues.

It really does seem like immigration police's work is to make sure as few
people as possible immigrate.

------
greghinch
So you can only get the visa if you have VC funding? How are you supposed to
get started then? If your business isn't already operating in a country, how
are you supposed to raise money from investors there?

~~~
derefr
When you apply to YC as a foreigner, you undertake the program during the
three-month stay a visitor/tourist visa provides you. Then your company gets
invested in, and your company, now capitalized, can legally immigrate you.
Quite often, you have to go back home while things are set up, and then you're
allowed back into the US when the paperwork goes through (may take
months/years, during which you run the [US-based] company from abroad.)

I imagine the Canadian VC programs this affects will be similar;
interestingly, the Canadian maximum-tourist-visit period is six months, so it
gives you a bit longer to work things out.

~~~
greghinch
Technically it's illegal to participate in YC or any other accelerator on a
tourist visa. You can do it, but you basically have to lie at the border. I
know this is the case in the US and UK, possibly Canada as well. Unable to
find the stories ATM, but I know I've seen a couple cases where YC founders
were detained and then turned away for getting called out on falsified tourism
claims at US border control. Seems like if they are going to start this kind
of visa, they need a case that covers the earlier stage as well.

Don't even get me started on the double taxation you face if your business is
successful as a foreign national.

------
tomjen3
Does Canada even have an issue with immigration? I mean they already give
visas on a point system, so most of the people who could qualify for this visa
would probably qualify under their normal immigration system too.

What we really, really need though is a US startup visa (or even better) a
point-based immigration system.

~~~
rdouble
Yes. Although Canada has transparent metrics for who gets admitted, there is a
huge skilled immigration backlog. This backlog is from four to eight years,
depending on the source. The immigration reform is intended to flush this
backlog and speed up the process for future applicants.

~~~
samuelelder
Actually, the old skilled worker backlog (FSW?) has been reduced by about 50%
in the past year or so.

[http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2012/...](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2012/2012-09-17.asp)

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suyash
Good to hear that, now we need to implement the same in US. Btw, any links
that point to the exact qualifications for this visa?

~~~
samuelelder
Yes. There is no financial investment required from the applying
entrepreneuer. However:

"The basic requirements will be intermediate proficiency in English or French
and at least one year of post-secondary education. Beyond that, he said, it
will depend on which organization is recommending the applicant.

They could be accepted into a designated incubator program, receive a funding
commitment of at least $75,000 from a designated angel network, or a funding
commitment of at least $200,000 from a designated venture capital fund.

Venture capital funds will automatically qualify to back startup visa
entrepreneurs if they’re managing $40-million or more in assets. Those
managing less than that would be subject to a peer review process “to ensure
they’re credible,” Mr. Kenney said.

For angel networks, a peer review panel of NACO members will review the
applicants, he said."

via [http://business.financialpost.com/2013/01/24/startup-visa-
pr...](http://business.financialpost.com/2013/01/24/startup-visa-program-to-
launch-april-1-with-participation-of-cvca-and-naco/)

~~~
sogen
What if someone needs less money (20-30k)?

BTW thanks for the info Sam.

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manishsharan
Good ! its aboot time !

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nirvana
"Startup" used to mean a "business that is starting up"... somehow it became a
very narrow definition meaning "businesses that get venture funding".

I guess a "startup visa" under the narrow definition is an improvement, but it
isn't really what countries should be doing.

Frankly, there's nothing any country has that is going to be lost by letting
immigrants in. Every country benefits from immigrants.

But if you're going to encourage entrepreneur immigrants, you should be open
to anyone with a business plan, and enough experience and minimal personal
assets necessary to make the business a success.

Since this is difficult to determine, don't try to determine it. Let people
just apply and take them.

If, a year later, they've gotten in trouble with the law then send them
packing... but otherwise, that's what a real "startup visa" would look like,
in my opinion.

Fortunately there are countries who take this kind of approach.

Chile wants you to be able to support yourself and have a clean record with
the local police.

Panama wants you to form a corporation and put $5,000 in the bank.

For americans, the Netherlands wants you to form a corporation and put
$11,000-$15,000 into the bank. (via the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty)

I'm sure other countries have similar programs. For instance, Equador is
reasonably open to americans who want to live there.

I don't see Chile, Panama or the Netherlands being overrun with problematic
immigrants.

