
Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negative track record - throwaway789a
Hello,<p>I'm trying to re-enter the working world, but I face the problem that my track record is mostly negative...<p>On the positive side there are a finished apprenticeship and a bachelor in CS.<p>On the negative side, I got fired from two successful companies within a year of joining them because of conflicts with my bosses (in one case I refused to work on a project, in the other case I was obviously too critical when completing the assessment questionnaire about my boss). Furthermore I left a startup after about three months because I didn't get along with one of the other co-founders. Followed by a long time with psychic and health issues.<p>Another obstacle is that I'm an introvert loner and hence just the opposite of the "communicative teamplayer" companies seem to be looking for.<p>So far all responses to my CV/resume were negative.<p>Any ideas on how to get back into the working world with such a track record?
======
ColinWright
My free advice, and worth every penny ...

Others will offer advice about where to apply to work (startups), and what to
do in the meantime to be able to demonstrate your skills (github/OpenSource).
I'll talk about my personal experience in the introvert/communication problem.

If you work in and/or for a company you will need to communicate. You need to
receive guidance/instruction from those who are assigning you work, you need
to pass the fruits of your labors back to your work colleagues and/or bosses.

No matter how much of a genius you may be, you have to communicate
effectively.

I never could, until I was forced into a situation where I knew I was going to
have to learn how to get along with people. This was in the mid 1970s - there
was no internet, no home computers, no mobiles, and if you wanted information
you got it from people or books. So I went and found a book that I could use
as a blueprint for how to get along with people.

I used "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

These days it's terribly dated, but I picked up one of my copies the other day
and dipped into it. Allowing for the language and the scenarios used, it
seemed like it would be as effective today as it was for me some 35 years ago.

But you can't just read it, you have to study, reflect, and apply what you've
just read. The book itself says that, exhorting you to read a chapter, then
put it into deliberate practice.

It may not work for you, but I can pretty much guarantee that the one thing
that won't work is not making the effort.

ADDED IN EDIT: I should add that there are people who hate me, and others that
I get along with _really_ well. This is my story - yours will be different. I
tell it here not as an absolute, but as something to consider.

~~~
llambda
> I used "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

This is an interesting citation. I haven't personally read it but I recall an
interview on NPR wherein an author (I can't remember his name now) recalled a
year of elementary school during which he read this book and attempted to
implement its techniques. The result? Both his peers and the teachers were
left confused and unsure how to react to his methods that he had garnered from
the book. Some people seemed to think he was trying to manipulate them while
others were just unused to such unnatural social interaction. So that's
completely anecdotal, after all who knows what a kid really would know about
the advice of such a book or how he might have (wrongly or rightly)
interpreted the book. Still I found it fascinating, the reactions he
described. It made me wonder if you can really create a so-called "blueprint"
for social interaction?

~~~
garethsprice
It was written in a different time so the language and examples are archaic
and would look odd now, but the principles are the same.

To paraphrase badly, there's examples along the lines of "So I laid my hat on
the desk, asked his girl to fetch us some coffee and said '...so let's name
the company after you'. He took the deal.".

Following that to the letter would likely get you kicked out (ie. wearing a
fedora to a business meeting makes you look like a loon, summoning the nearest
woman to fetch you coffee would likely get you a dirty look or a lawsuit) but
the underlying principle of giving up credit to the other guy so everyone gets
what they want is still a valuable principle.

You can't create word-for-word scripts for social interaction as context
varies wildly between situations, locations and time periods - but there are
underlying principles of interaction that can be modeled and learned,
especially by those who are not naturally gifted with communication skills.

(Some other fascinating books on this subject: Robert Cialdini's Influence and
Eric Berne's Games People Play)

------
mitya777
Being an introvert loner is not a permanent condition, and you can put in work
to improve how you socialize and relate to other people.

Just like with any other worth-while self-improvement process this will
require you to step out of your comfort zone.

A great way to to both improve your social skills and improve your job
prospects is to start going to local networking events and meetups associated
with the technologies you are interested in.

Set a goal for yourself to talk to atleast one or two new people. At first it
will seem contrived, but think of it like going to the gym, and talking to
people like exercise. Eventually as you improve, you will find that you
actually enjoy it.

The point is that you have to expend conscious effort to improve this aspect
of your life.

------
meric
Well, before you get back into the workforce, you could try acting more
likeable. You might disagree with something but you can choose not to let them
know. And if your boss hired to to work on a project, don't refuse to do it;
otherwise what did he hire you for? It's like signing up to be a cleaner but
refusing to mop the floor.

I don't know about your CV/resume, maybe you can reformat it so we can view it
anonymously but still get the gist of it and comment? (Delete your name, your
previous company names, organisational names, project names, school names,
marks, copy and paste and change the font to plain text format, use your
imagination).

~~~
throwaway789a
> And if your boss hired to to work on a project, don't refuse to do it;
> otherwise what did he hire you for?

The project was in a programming language I didn't know (and it wasn't used at
the company) with a tight schedule. And I knew I wouldn't be able to finish it
in time in the quality I want to provide. Plus as a Java developer I wasn't
that interested in that particular programming language (Perl).

How else would you handle such a situation?

~~~
ColinWright
Again, my $0.02 - this wouldn't work for everyone. But ...

Above all else, be positive and constructive.

For example, say that your current skills in Perl aren't great, but that
you're certain you can come up to speed fairly quickly. Then point out that
the work will probably not be of great quality unless you have to time to do
that, and poor code executed quickly will certainly lead to more problems
further down the line, so you really want to make sure that the company's code
base remains clean and without unnecessary technical debt.

Then express enthusiasm again, and ask how you can work together to get the
work scheduled to ensure it's of decent quality, while still meeting the
company's timing requirements.

Solve the problems, and get the boss involved in solving them with you. Say
that you're willing to do it, and welcome it as a learning opportunity.

A point for concern is your response that you're a Java developer with no
interest in a different language. I would hope that most developers would
welcome the chance to get experience in another language. New languages are
either easy to pick up because they're similar to something you know, or hard
to pick up because they are extending your skills and making you more able,
adept and, in the longer run, valuable.

Try to see yourself as a problem solver, not just a Java programmer.

~~~
throwaway789a
> A point for concern is your response that you're a Java developer with no
> interest in a different language.

It's not that I'm not interested in a different language (besides Java I use
other languages, too), it's just that I was not interested in Perl.

I agree with you about the value of learning new languages, but I think you
are more successful in learning a new language when you learn it because you
want to learn it, and not, because you must learn it. Intrinsic vs. extrinsic
motivation.

~~~
chc
I'm more successful in pretty much any task when I have no deadline, five
highly competent assistants and a private masseur for whenever I'm feeling
stressed. But if I was only willing to work that way, I'd be living on the
street. Being a professional means getting the job done even in suboptimal
conditions.

~~~
throwaway789a
Yes, that's true, though I think being a professional also includes the option
of saying "no" (on how you say it, that's another question).

~~~
greenyoda
No, you can only say "no" if you're a self-employed professional like a doctor
or lawyer or consultant with his own practice. Then you have the choice of
whether to take on a potential client or not. However, a professional who
works for someone else has to take on their employer's priorities. That's the
deal you sign up for when you become an employee; that's what you give up for
a regular monthly paycheck.

If you're very valuable to your employer, you might be able to get away with
saying "no". But most people are not indispensable, and if you say "no" too
many times, your employer will start looking for ways to replace you.

------
damoncali
You could start being nice to people. Seriously. When everyone around you is
in conflict, look in the mirror. We're not all extroverts, but the fact
remains that business requires dealing with other people effectively, so suck
it up and learn how to make people feel good. Being right is a career killer.

More directly, start networking, and change your attitude. You will find
something.

------
ssharp
Have you contributed to or created any open-sourece projects? Showing that you
are a good programmer, capable of shipping projects could help you overcome
some of your past issues.

Like some of the others have said here, however, you need to look to way to
improve yourself, not just your resume. Leaving three out of four jobs on bad
terms may be a string of bad luck, but probably not. From your own admission,
you have some interpersonal communication issues, and communication is a huge
part of working with others. Try to look back at how your relationships with
these three companies progressed and ultimately ended, and try to see how
others perceived you to be. Look at things from their perspective. And as you
grow as person, continue to revisit these situations and see how you'd handle
them after improving your skill set.

In the meantime, if you have to work now, focus your job search on positions
where you can remain relatively autonomous until you're in a better social
state of mind.

~~~
throwaway789a
> Have you contributed to or created any open-sourece projects?

Yes, I have contributed patches/bug reports to open-source projects, but I'm
not involved as a regular developer in any project. And I created some open-
source projects, but they are only small libraries. Plus I'm active on
StackOverflow.

------
SoftwarePatent
Here's a tip from improv comedy: when you hear something you don't like, don't
say "No." Say "yes, but..." This one little tip can really change how you
interact with people. It won't change your world by itself though. Example
interaction: your new boss says, "We should switch all the Linux servers to
Windows." You say, "Yes, that would help with X, but have you considered the
cost?"

Also, come up with a narative that explains your resume. I know a professional
person who left a good job to take another good job in their home city. The
new job evaporated for reasons out of their control in less than three months.
This person came up with a narative that allowed hiring managers to see past
the black spot on their resume: "I had family issues to take care of in my
home city, they are resolved, and now I want to return to X city."

Good luck!

~~~
F_J_H
Another suggestion to consider. Try not to use "but" because it is a flag that
you are about to discount what you just said. Here's an alternative to the
above, where you simply replace "but" with "and". (Also note saying why you
like something really helps too.)

 _"Yes, I like that because it would help with X, and have you have you
considered the cost?"_

Usually "but" can be replaced with "and" fairly smoothly. However, if not, you
can do something like:

 _"Yes, I like that because it would help with X. I wonder how much it would
cost, both for the licenses and for the effort?"_

~~~
SoftwarePatent
oops, listen to F_J_H! The improv phrase is "yes, and" not "yes, but".

------
joshklein
There's plenty of (good) advice here on how to work on yourself to fit into a
team environment. That's a very good idea.

You may also want to consider that it is possible you're not meant to fit in
quite like that. Being an introvert is a weakness if you want to fit in to an
extroverted team environment, or a strength if you want to work remotely on
self-directed projects.

Introversion isn't worse than extroversion; it just means you recharge your
batteries by being alone with your thoughts, and have to use your batteries to
participate in group activities (the reverse is true for extroverts). Perhaps
part of your frustration is trying to fit yourself, a square peg, into the
round hole of a corporate team environment.

I'm assuming you're looking for CS gigs, and that you have entrepreneurial
aspirations. Maybe you should hit some freelance websites to fill your coffers
& stay afloat, while working on an idea of your own on the side. If you're
interested/open to travel, you can significantly reduce your overhead while
still making decent wages by finding a place to work from that will lower your
cost of living.

I'm not saying this is the right way to go - I know nothing else about you -
but it's worth considering that maybe the rest of the world is wrong, not you.

~~~
petervandijck
Being an introvert is not a strength in remote projects. Remote projects
require better communication skills than on-side work.

~~~
wladimir
It requires a different kind of (more formal) communication skills though. Of
course you need to be able to report your progress, your obstacles, work out
requirements, and discuss who is going to do what. This could be through IRC
or through Skype or whatever...

However it is completely different from an "extraverted team environment" in
which you're expected to be social and cheerful about all kinds of unrelated
stuff.

------
goingforgold
I have a similar challenge, and I've found psychotherapy the most effective
intervention. If you can afford it, I recommend looking for a therapist who
offers both individual and group therapy. Finding a therapist is not the same
as finding an excellent therapist, and everyone needs the latter. I recommend
looking for recommendations from the local chapter of the American Group
Psychotherapy Association.

If you cannot afford a therapist, pick up a copy of "Don't Bring It To Work"
by Sylvia Lafair. The subtitle is "Breaking the Family Patterns That Limit
Success". And see if there are some low-cost/sliding counseling centers in
your area.

You can change, and you deserve it.

------
afterburner
Being an introvert loner is fine for plenty of jobs. Just be more diplomatic
when you do interact with people; since you've learned the hard way what being
undiplomatic will get you, try to use that experience to encourage yourself to
smooth over the hard edges a bit in public.

Regarding your track record... is it possible to gloss over the really bad
stuff? Your potential new employer doesn't have to know about your past
mistakes in all their full gory detail (or even at all?). You make it sound
like every new employer can find out the full story on your past, is that
really actually true?

------
edw519
Thanks for posting this. It takes a lot of balls (even with a throwaway
account) to post something like this and, hopefully, only good will come out
of it. If this thread goes like these kinds of threads usually go on Hacker
News, I have no doubt you will have helped quite a few others with this. And
hopefully, you will get help too. But that won't be easy. Here's why...

When I read your headline on the front page, the first thing I thought was,
"OK, someone to help and encourage. Good." After I read your comment, I didn't
feel quite the same way.

I normally try to be upbeat and positive, but in your case, it won't sound
that way. I'm going to give it to you straight and I hope that you don't get
offended or upset. You need feedback from my point of view.

It's perfectly normal for someone to be weak technically or with other people.
It's perfectly normal for someone to struggle with work habits, project
management, or personal issues. It's also perfectly normal for excellent
people to have been fired. Many of us have been on both sides of these issues.

And these are the kinds of things that are easily managed and fixed.

Your issues, unfortunately, run deeper. Conflicts with bosses? OK, we've all
been there. Not getting along? That happens, too. A negative assessment of
your boss? Whoa. That would piss me off, too. Why didn't you just talk to him?
Refusing to work on a project? WTF? That's your fucking job!

These are the kinds of things that are _not_ easily managed and fixed. I don't
know why anyone would take a chance on someone with this kind of track
performance. I know that I wouldn't. I'd much rather hire a weak performer
with good attitude and potential than a strong performer with interpersonal
issues you describe. It's just not worth the trouble.

You most telling remark, however, was:

 _Another obstacle is that I'm an introvert loner and hence just the opposite
of the "communicative teamplayer" companies seem to be looking for._

As one introvert loner to another, I can confidently tell you that this is
just an excuse. Almost all of us are introvert loners and almost all employers
want "communicative teamplayers". And most of us just find a way to make it
work.

I bet I've been in situations like yours (and worse) far more times than you
and I bet many others here have too. I've been abused more ways than I care to
remember. I've done the work of 5 people and been passed up for promotion.
I've worked overtime for years and got no credit. I've been yelled at, cussed
at, and many times, generally treated like shit. But I've learned how to put
up with it until it's no longer time to put up with it. It all depends where
you draw the line.

I've never had words with a boss or customer. I've never emailed, talked about
someone else, or filled out any form about them without _talking to them
first_. And most of all, I've _never refused work_. That's our reason for
being there in the first place.

 _Any ideas on how to get back into the working world with such a track
record?_

I may sound negative, but believe me, I really want to help. So here are a few
thoughts:

1\. The root cause of your negative experiences is probably still there. You
need to identify that cause, understand your role, and fix it. Get help with
that if you think you need it. The good news: you know there's a problem and
you're already talking about it. You may be 90% of the way there.

2\. Always tell the truth.

3\. Don't be afraid to admit that you may have been wrong.

4\. Be prepared to describe your experiences (truthfully always!) and what
steps you have already taken to grow because of them.

5\. Don't volunteer (in writing or in person) anything that you don't have to
that can potentially hurt you.

6\. _Never_ give references until _after_ you have a job offer (contingent
upon those references).

7\. Find a way to have a positive attitude and make it show.

8\. Understand that there are assholes everywhere and you will surely
encounter many more. You can't control them. But you must control yourself.
Don't let them fuck you up any more.

I hope I haven't been too tough, but I think you needed to hear this. I wish
you the best and look forward to hearing about you getting up on your feet
again. If you want to refute anything I have said or need any follow-up
feedback, please contact me off-line. Best wishes!

~~~
throwaway789a
Thanks for your thoughtful answer. It contains a lot of things I have to think
about. And no, it wasn't too tough, it is the kind of feedback I was looking
for.

One clarification:

> A negative assessment of your boss? Whoa. That would piss me off, too. Why
> didn't you just talk to him?

Filling out the assessment form was a required preparation for the yearly
staff appraisal. You fill it out, give it to your boss and then you discuss it
with him at the meeting. Though the discussion never happened in my case.

~~~
abbasmehdi
I think that's the point - why didn't you communicate major issues in private
before humiliating in public?

~~~
throwaway789a
There was no public humiliation. The only person who saw the assessment form
was my boss.

~~~
abbasmehdi
Glad to hear, however isn't that form added to his record/file with the
company? I don't see HR shredding it. Unless I'm wrong.

~~~
keeptrying
If the boss deserves a negative assessment then he deserves to get one. The
mistake that the OP made is believing that HR is there for low level employees
and putting his true feelings on paper.

Always remember that HR is present to safeguard the company. They will look
after the manager more than they look after you because he is, to the company,
much more important.

OP: you need to learn what I learnt during my time in corporate America -
focus on getting what u want instead of focussing on being right. When your a
startup founder you can work on creating a better workplace. For now though
focus on getting along with the boss. It's a way to make good money and it's a
great skill to have - being able to work with difficult people.

~~~
throwaway789a
HR was never involved in this (except in doing the admin stuff after the
termination).

And it wasn't about my true feelings or me being right. I enjoy analyzing and
thinking about stuff, and so when you give me an assessment form with about 20
topics, you will get a (critical) analysis of them. With my thoughts on what's
good and what could be improved. And many questions. For me it was like a code
or design review.

~~~
keeptrying
Well all reviews go thru HR and its basically safer for you that way.

So your saying that a manager fired you solely on feedback u gave to him? I'm
pretty sure that's illegal.

Also you seem stuck on "being right". That's a lonely place to be in my
friend.

~~~
throwaway789a
> So your saying that a manager fired you solely on feedback u gave to him?

Yes.

> I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

Why would that be illegal?

~~~
keeptrying
You have to have good reason to fire an employee. There needs to be a paper
trail of him not being able to do his job or him being generally
insubordinate. The only thing that can legally get you fired on the spot is
sexual harrasment or where you've broken the law in some manner that could
affect the company.

Anyway you dont fit in to a regular command and control type organisation.
Welcome to my world :) ....

Now if your generally a rebel but you do love creating things then you _might_
be an entrepreneur. First get a job and then view the job as the thing that
allows you to become an entrepreneur in the future. Ie the job is your
"Venture Capitalist". Save up enough so that you can quit in the future and go
it on your own.

Again this means you have to put what you want before your urge to be right.
This will take you about 3 years to learn. In 3 years you could have $50000
saved up and the oppurtunity of a lifetime to be an entrepreneur.

~~~
greenyoda
Actually, if someone is an "at-will" employee in the U.S.
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment>), you don't need any reason
at all to fire him. Certainly gross insubordination (such as refusing to do a
job when asked) is something that people are fired for all the time. Paper
trails are useful when the employee is a member of a protected class and could
allege in a law suit that they were fired because they were a minority,
pregnant, over 40, etc. But that doesn't seem to apply to the original
poster's situation.

~~~
keeptrying
I'm pretty sure your wrOng. There's a reason why incompetents ate kept on
payroll for so long.

------
ajays
Hiring has picked up these days, and this is the time to get in. Get a job you
reasonably like, keep your head down and build a positive track record. If the
job is shitty, don't just get fired; act like an adult and keep them happy
while looking for a new one. It is much easier to get a job when you already
have one. Good luck!

~~~
dholowiski
I second that. There's something to be said working a shitty job doing things
you don't like to do and keeping your mouth shut (speaking as someone who's
been there, done that). When you finally get the job that you love, you'll
love it even more.

------
ohyes
I don't know. Based on your track record, it doesn't sound like you really
want to work for someone else.

I disagree with my bosses and don't want to work on projects all of the time,
but part of working for someone else is that you have to make that person
happy (or at least not piss them off). So you have to compromise, and give
generous assessments even if they aren't totally warranted (because in turn,
you will be given a good assessment).

As an introvert loner, you will never be fully comfortable being a
communicative team player, but it is something that can be worked at. (Set up
reminders/mantras to essentially brainwash yourself into remembering your
goals of cooperativeness and willingness to get along).

------
alttag
You say that CV/resume responses were negative, but share things that
shouldn't necessarily show up on a resume as possible reasons for failure.
Resumes just get you in the door.

Most resumes are horrible. I've worked with dozens of people (nearly a
hundred) to successfully improve their resumes, and I'm happy to help you too.
Send me a Word doc (I can respond w/ embedded comments) or PDF (I'll put
comments in a separate file). I'll shortly add my email address to my profile
here.

The simplest resume/interview advice is to think of the thing at each job
you're most proud of. That should be the story you tell in the first couple of
bullets for each job. Most people list responsibilities. List accomplishments
instead. Don't share too much; it's a common mistake.

I recommend people keep an annotated "long-form" resume as notes of all
accomplishments, duties, projects, etc.; in the U.S., it's customary to only
submit a single-page resume, but those extra notes are handy in building a
resume. (Take some time to do an annotated long-form version, and send that
too.)

As for interviewing and people skills? I may not be the best person to ask,
but the above advice to get and study _How to Win Friends and Influence
People_ is excellent. Perhaps the simplest summary of it's lessons is "People
tend to align their behavior with how you feel about them. Sincerely care for
others."

------
ibrow
Just a couple of quick points from a point of view of someone who has
hired/worked with a lot different employees and freelancers.

Firstly, joining open source projects is all well and good, but this is only a
part of what people are looking for. The main thing is that you can finish
something. For want of a better expression: that you can "ship".

If you are someone that can consistently complete assignments and projects,
then it really doesn't matter if you're introverted or not. If you are the
type of person I can give a project to and I know that it will be done when
you say it will be done to the quality I expect, then you can really do what
you want - work from home, in the office, on a beach.

However, from your post, this is probably something that needs to be worked
on. As others have said, consider joining a freelance site or similar to get a
few completed projects under your belt.

Secondly: communication. Saying no is absolutely fine. It is how you say no
that matters. I've had a couple of people not want to do a specific projects
for me, due to cultural/ethical reasons. And this was fine. They explained
their reasons why, I accepted and everyone was ok, and we still work on other
projects. If they were an arse about it then most probably I would never work
with them again on anything. The only advice I can offer you here is to think
about it from the other person's perspective (and this works both ways).

Once you have can prove that you can get the job done, and you can communicate
effectively, then you don't need to be "teamplayer" to be of value to a
company.

Good luck with it

------
megamark16
You might try getting involved in some open source projects, that way you can
build a network of people who have worked with you and know what you can do,
but who didn't have to take a risk on hiring you, given you track record.

I don't know what your skillset consists of, but if you have any experience
with mobile development (android, iphone, etc) or think you can pick it up,
there's a huge demand for mobile developers, and if you build a few apps on
your own and publish them to the app store/market, that gives you something to
show people, instead of them only being able to check your past work history
by calling up previous bosses.

Finally, if you can get stuff done, you might see about working for a startup.
They will probably be much more demanding of your time, but they may be
willing to give you a chance where a corporate HR person would otherwise rule
you out off the cuff.

Good luck.

------
pnathan
You must demonstrate your ability to get along with people. Your client, your
boss, your co-worker, your employee. You must be civil and decent to any and
all of those people.

Your track record, as has been described, doesn't say you can do that, it says
you can't.

I'd suggest a two-pronged approach: find a position where they aren't too
choosy- i.e., a volunteer program, and also as you are working there, reflect
on your behavior and consciously reflect on your habits with an eye towards
tact and civility towards all, even in difficult circumstances.

It helps me a good deal to consider two things when dealing with people I
disagree with. First, treat others as I want to be treated. Second, figure out
where they are coming from and why they want the things they want.

------
gorpal
You may want to add a section to your work history in which you're an
independent contractor. You can fill it in with any technologies you
encountered or developed (even if it wasn't paid work). That may make the job
history seem less abrupt (if that's indeed what you think is the issue).

If you're in need of more references, you may want to ask a friend to provide
one or do a small task on a site like elance/rentacoder/guru and ask the
employer to sign a letter of reference (you can get some nice boilerplates
online). That way you can present a glowing recommendation along with your
resume.

------
Tichy
Try freelancing. In my experience it tends to be a lot less bureaucratic. For
example on Jobserve many gigs contain the line "if you are interested, call
xyz" - no sending in a CV and waiting weeks for a response, just call (that
was a few years ago, but I assume it is still like that).

Also it is normal if freelance gigs last less than a year. You don't have to
write "I was fired" on your CV. I just have a section with "recent projects"
and don't even specify if I was employed or freelancing.

I wasn't asked for references from previous jobs very often, either.

~~~
bmj
Except that in many cases, your clients are going to ask of you the equivalent
of "write this tomorrow, in a language you don't know." In fact, I reckon
freelancing is even worse in this regard, as you have no recourse--at least at
a full-time job, it is likely you may have another higher-level manager to
whom you can plead your case.

Telling a client "no, I can't do that" isn't going to work, because they will
find someone who will, for less money.

------
Mz
_Followed by a long time with psychic and health issues._

I'm not sleeping too well this week, so not up for any brilliant public
comments. Short version: I got into a job after 2 decades of hiding out as a
homemaker because I was too overwhelmed with psych and health issues to do a
full time job. So, yes, it can be done. I commented on this previously here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2293021>

Best of luck.

------
coffee
You say you want to re-enter the working world. The real question is do you
want to change who you are to match the needs of the working world?

Different advise for the different answers...

------
helen842000
Hey,

If you apply for jobs that suit your personality you may get more positive
feedback. Turn these points into strengths.

Some things to consider especially if you have been having various health
issues is a) are you ready to take on a new role b) what would your perfect
job be?

I worked in tech recruitment for a few years, I'd be happy to make a few
changes to your resume if that is of any help to you. I'm my HN username at
gmail

------
andrewcooke
have you looked at anger management? obviously, you could go see someone, but
if you'd prefer to work things out yourself you might gain something from
working through a book like "the angry self" by gottleib. it's not the
greatest book ever - sometimes it's a bit dumb, and sometimes it feels a bit
slow - but if you go through it step by step, including the exercises, you
might find that it helps. i think it helped me. it starts with very basic
stuff about what being angry is, then how to recognise it, then how you can
deflect / control it in various ways. but the best part is at the end where it
also shows how it can be a useful tool.

i'm guessing that you're getting angry and frustrated. i do too. that book
helped me channel that in a more productive direction. good luck.

------
boop
Hello Throwaway789a, Could you post a little on your skills and any other
experience you have? Are you a Developer/Designer/Consultant, etc?

------
earl
I don't know what your definition of team player is, but at (almost) any real
job, there is shitwork. You know exactly what I mean -- maybe someone has to
evaluate a new classifier, and that means spending a pair of 10 hour days
looking at several thousand documents and hand labeling. Or maybe you're
switching version control and someone has to go through 5k branches/release
branches/tags and figure out what is needed and what isn't. Or maybe the raid
array in the box that hosts artifactory shit itself and someone has to get
artifactory back up, recover as many artifacts as possible, and for those that
can't be recovered, find their tag in your git repo, check out, and rebuild
where possible. Or maybe your company decided to swap DFSs and your project
touches HDFSUtils in 873 places (just to pick a random number =P), and some
sucker is going to have to go through each and every place you use that module
and audit it for possible breakage during the dfs swap. Or maybe you need to
upgrade from the original hadoop job api to a cascading equivalent, and you
have to do this to some 80-odd production jobs; it's tedious work that has to
be very carefully performed so the original semantics are preserved. Etc etc.
These are all things that I or coworkers have done.

The point is, in any job, there is work that nobody wants to do but that
someone has to do. ie shitwork. However, you seem like you don't want to do
this. For example, sometimes your boss drops a last minute job in a language
or api that you don't know or have never used or maybe actively don't want to
use in your lap. Sometimes the work is already late when you get it, or it
wasn't scoped or specced appropriately. It happens. Refusing to do it would
reasonably get you fired, _and_ make your coworkers hate you, because your
coworkers are all doing their ration of shit shoveling.

Of course, it's perfectly fair to complain if you always end up shoveling. Or
if that's all the job offers, get a new one. But refusing to do it or refusing
to pull your fair share is not going to get you far.

You need to decide what happens the next time you are asked to do something
like this. Because the one thing I can promise about a programming career is
it _will_ happen.

------
michaelochurch
Ok, it sounds like you have a lot to work on, personally speaking. That's not
unusual; most smart people in their 20s _do_ have serious issues to work
through. I don't know you, so I can't comment on that. You probably have a
better sense of what you need to fix about yourself than I do.

Three job-ending personality conflicts in less than 3 years is worse than
average, but not the worst I've seen. But do take the hint that you might be
doing a few things wrong. You don't need to be a popular-jock type, but please
do yourself a favor and bring your social skills at least up to the 35th
percentile. Read books like _How to Win Friends and Influence People_ and read
them seriously. (Just don't get into that sleazy PUA shit.)

Personal change is the hard part. Regarding career repair, that's much easier.
Find a good recruiter and she'll help you with a lot of that. First, don't put
months on your CV, just years. If you worked at a place from Nov. 2008 to Jan.
2009, put 2008-2009. If your tenure was 6/2010 to 8/2010, just put 2010 unless
it was an internship (then put a season, e.g. "summer 2010"). Second, never
say you were fired. Say you left of your own volition; no one can legally
contradict you. If previous employers say something different, have your
attorney send a C&D letter. Make sure your departure reflects positively on
your ambition but not negatively on the company. Third, check your references.
Use a professional reference-checking service like Allison and Taylor instead
of trying to do it yourself. Find out what people are saying. If the
references are damaging, bring on the C&D's. Fourth, most people with "damaged
track records" are people who give away the store on their ex-employers. The
"permanent record" exists, but only in your mind. If you can just learn to
shut the fuck up occasionally (I'm speaking from personal experience and past
mistakes, so I know how hard this can be) about the injustices you've faced it
will do you favors. You can do much more damage to your enemies (if that's
what you want; most people stop caring about their enemies once they're
successful) by succeeding and getting into an important role later in life
than you can by smearing their reputations in 20 unsuccessful (you can't throw
shit without some sticking to you) interviews.

When you interview, keep the conversation technical and focus on _what you
worked on_. The politics and personality conflicts you should gloss over
entirely. And learn a few stock evasive answers if you get questions related
to these matters. When interviewers probe you for political dirty laundry on
past employers, they're not doing it because they "value" your opinion; it's
either (a) a test, or (b) scouting against competitors, and neither benefits
you personally.

~~~
gaius
Well, that is not strictly true, a company can perfectly legally say it would
not rehire you, and the next company will read between the lines. Good luck
trying to sue - if word got out that you did, you really would become
unhireable.

Also, hiding gaps on the CV is a major red flag. It would be grounds for
instant dismissal, it's as bad as pretending to have a qualification you
don't.

~~~
michaelochurch
_Well, that is not strictly true, a company can perfectly legally say it would
not rehire you, and the next company will read between the lines. Good luck
trying to sue - if word got out that you did, you really would become
unhireable._

In the U.S., no. Blackballing law is extremely friendly to the employee. And
no, you don't _sue_ over a bad reference. You have your attorney send a C&D
letter and they fall back to the "default" reference: name, dates of
employment.

Generally, you never need to sue over a bad reference. The best response to a
bad reference is to replace him, ideally with someone who worked with you at
the company and can vouch that, yes, you actually did good work.

 _Also, hiding gaps on the CV is a major red flag._

I didn't tell him to hide gaps. I told him to put his years of employment (not
months) on his CV, e.g. 2009-2010 instead of Nov. 2009 to Jan. 2010. He may
still have to put the dates on the formal application that comes later in the
hiring process, but after you've had an interview, CV smells don't matter as
much.

 _It would be grounds for instant dismissal, it's as bad as pretending to have
a qualification you don't._

You cannot be serious. Omitting two months at a startup that didn't work out
is not the moral equivalent of a quack surgeon pretending to have a medical
degree. That said, from a strategic perspective, omitting a job of even 2
months is almost never a good idea because a gap is more damaging that a bad
job (which can always be spun). (If it's less than 2 months, omit it; you
didn't really work there.)

~~~
greenyoda
In the U.S., if an employer gives information about you that's factual, you'd
have no grounds for suing them. If they fired the original poster, they'd
almost certainly have the paperwork to prove it.

If you want to learn more about these kinds of employment issues (from both
the employer's and employee's point of view), I can recommend a couple of
excellent blogs:

\- Evil HR Lady: <http://www.evilhrlady.org>

\- Ask a Manager: <http://www.askamanager.org>

