
What is the Strategic Petroleum Reserve? - TenJack
https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/strategic-petroleum-reserve1.htm
======
hn_throwaway_99
Curious, does anyone know if the US govt is filling the reserve now, or even
adding capacity? With oil so incredibly cheap right now, now is the absolute
best time to be building and expanding our reserves.

~~~
arbuge
$3B was allocated to precisely this purpose in the stimulus proposal before it
passed, but it was later dropped over opposition:

[https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/bailout-
for...](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/bailout-for-big-oil-
democrats-eliminate-3b-strategic-petroleum-reserve-purchase-in-pandemic-
relief-package)

I agree with your assessment and this was a serious mistake in my opinion.

There is now however an alternative plan to monetize the remaining open space
by leasing it to oil companies that need storage space:

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-oil-usa-
reserve/us...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-oil-usa-reserve/us-
to-lease-space-for-initial-30-million-barrels-of-oil-in-emergency-reserve-
idUSKBN21K33E)

Storage space is in very high demand at this point - to the extent that oil
tankers are being used as floating storage:

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-04/the-
most-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-04/the-most-
profitable-trade-oil-all-over-the-oceans-right-now)

~~~
echelon
> it was later dropped over opposition

Both parties make mistakes.

Sigh.

Why on earth did they frame this as a "bailout for big oil"? It's a strategic
concern for national security.

~~~
reportingsjr
> Why on earth did they frame this as a "bailout for big oil"?

Because that is exactly what it is. You're talking about the largest companies
in the world, they've have decades and decades of war and subsidy supporting
them.

They don't need more support now, especially considering the environmental
destruction they cause. Now is a much better time to push forward higher
quality energy production technology like solar, wind, batteries, etc.

~~~
leetcrew
why would now, while we're in the midst of a public health crisis and the
ensuing economic turmoil, be a good time to radically change our energy
infrastructure to something that still has a higher unit cost?

I can obviously see that, politically, now is a good opportunity to push
agendas that would otherwise not be accepted, but does that really make it a
good time overall?

~~~
makomk
It's not a good time at all. Even if you put the cost and reliability problems
aside for a moment, the entire planet's supply chains are massively disrupted
and largely shut down. Plus, even if you could get the equipment manufactured,
installing it is a health hazard right now - it means lots of people from all
over the place in close quarters on sites with poor access to sanitation
facilities. This will set back green energy a year at the very minimum.

------
samfisher83
This would be the time to buying. I remember when it was 100+ dollars people
were saying it will never go less than 100. Then when it was at 40 it will
never go to a 100. Then it went to 100 in 2014. It's like people just don't
look at history.

~~~
rch
When I was attending Colorado School of Mines (~1999) conventional wisdom held
that the maximum price should hover around $80 a barrel, since alternatives
for industrial applications start becoming competitive beyond that point.

Keep in mind that oil can degrade while in storage, and degrade the storage
itself. Taxation complicates the picture for commercial interests.

All things considered, the world probably has more above ground storage than
it needs, and what exists is already full. From the perspective of at least
one major oil company that I know of, this was already the case a decade ago.

~~~
syncsynchalt
Go Orediggers! Mines '00 here, I was across the street in Brown Building
though (CivEng).

During the last round of oil shocks ('07-'08) I remember a lot being made
about the inelasticity of demand for oil, and how that made prices so
volatile. I'm sure that it's still very inelastic, but now that there are non-
petroleum transportation alternatives (mass-produced EVs) I'm curious to see
what future oil shocks will look like, and whether we'll reduce some of that
storage as price volatility goes away.

~~~
brianwawok
How much oil demand is elastic though?

Over 10 years people can buy less gas cars and more electric cars. But over a
month, the car in your garage is either gas or electric. Not that many
individual things that can do both. Maybe some power plants, where say neither
coal nor oil generators are at 100% capacity...

------
GiorgioG
To provide some context, the US uses about 20m barrels of oil per day. We have
about 35 days worth of oil reserves. It seems if there was some kind of
extended emergency where we could not produce oil, 772m barrels would be
wholly inadequate.

~~~
claudiawerner
I'd imagine that in such a situation, a lot of things would be shut down -
there's a good chance it'd last a little more than 35 days when use is lower.

~~~
dpbriggs
And North American production will ramp up as quickly as possible. We've seen
very expensive oil in the last decade which has made a variety of alternative
extraction methods economical. Not entirely sure how a situation could arise
where oil production is impossible.

------
quotemstr
I hate headlines like this. The oil isn't "hidden": the strategic petroleum
reserve is a completely up front and public thing. There's no hiding going on.
That word in the headline is just clickbait.

~~~
kube-system
The word 'hidden' has meanings other than 'secret'. It can be correctly used
to describe something that is known, but out of view.

------
maxander
If some great catastrophe someday flattens our civilization, these reserves
(and others of the sort, globally) will probably be the only oil sources
accessible to civilization as it tries to rebuild. They may even be enough -
we use oil at an absurd rate now, but for most of our technological
development (excepting perhaps the world wars) I'd imagine it was much less.

~~~
valuearb
LOL. The US has hundreds of times more oil than the reserve can hold, just in
other holes in the ground, or in shale.

The idea that pumping it from one hole to another is disaster insurance is
ludicrous.

~~~
creato
Just like shipping a few million N95 masks from one place in the world to
another as disaster insurance is ludicrous?

------
systemBuilder
I am sure an alien race visiting the earth in 2020 would be astonished to see
how frenzied human beings are in digging up meteors (the ONLY source of gold
outside the Earth's core) but worst of all, why are these humans digging up
liquids in Saudi Arabia and transporting them halfway around the world only to
bury them in Louisiana?

------
BjoernKW
In a way, oil reserves (even more so with precious metal reserves, for that
matter) amount to prepping at the state level, don't they?

I get why in an economy that to a large extent depends on petrol having such a
reserve might alleviate some fear.

However, I also don't want to imagine a situation where the US actually would
have to use this reserve.

------
justinator
Two naive questions:

Does the salt of the actual cavern dissolve in the oil? And does that effect
the quality?

Are these reserves easy military targets? It would seem causing an explosion
in one of these would be catastrophic. I can see why this wouldn't be, but I'd
like to leave this question as is to promote (fun) discussion.

~~~
dejv
The village I was born in sits on caverns like than which are used to store
year worth of gas supply for whole country. Back in 70s one of the tower blow
up resulting in huge huge gas burner/candle (100 meters tall). No damage or
lives were lost but it took army two weeks to handle it (blew it by jet
engine). This fire actually happened on my grandma backyard, but no evacuation
was needed. In case oil behave the same like gas I would say it is relatively
safe.

~~~
3dprintscanner
Two jet engines mounted on a tank !
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7Ss3BMrscE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7Ss3BMrscE)

------
peter303
The 2018 Trump tax reform authorized selling 30% of the reserve in order to
shrink the federal deficit. They only sold off 10% before halting, due to a
glut depressing US energy industry.

[https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_sum_sndw_dcus_nus_w.htm](https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_sum_sndw_dcus_nus_w.htm)

Line 7 under Stocks list the weekly SPR. Clicks its box, the graph button at
top to get a history graph.

------
oneplane
So what about other emergency reserves? No point in hoarding oil if you are
dead.

~~~
taneq
Well as long as everyone has enough toilet paper the oil should get us through
the rest, right?

~~~
Ericson2314
Oil and TP makes a pretty good zatar baklava.

------
olliej
Something I’m curious about - what would happen if a barrel caught fire? Would
it just starve out the oxygen before any significant burning?

~~~
steffan
They're not literal barrels. It's a unit of measure equalling 42 U.S. gallons

~~~
olliej
Derp - i assume they’re in large containing tanks - but the question was more
“what happens in the mine if some of the oil does ignite?

------
whatsmyusername
Are they in the same condition the 'emergency supplies' they sent to Alabama
were?

------
esaym
Wow, I used to live on Quintana Beach, TX. Never knew there was an oil reserve
there!

------
valuearb
Didn’t turn out to be the best investment, did it?

------
JohnJamesRambo
Imagine if we hid some damn masks next time. We have to broaden our minds
about what things threaten national security.

~~~
echelon
Masks break down over time, so they're not something we can safely stockpile.
They have a relatively short shelf life.

~~~
Glide
I thought it was the elastic that broke down and not the filter?

If so you can basically fix a mask with elastic and a stapler.

~~~
lsllc
The elastic does breaks down alarmingly quickly (I wonder if this is
intentional) -- I have a box of N95 masks I bought a couple of years ago when
doing some drywall work and the elastic has utterly failed.

Meanwhile the elastic in my underwear seems to last forever! I guess I know
how I can fix those masks ...

------
pdonis
Moderators, the title here is inappropriate and arguably linkbait. The article
itself does not claim that the US strategic petroleum reserve is "hidden". The
article's title, "What is the Strategic Petroleum Reserve?" would be better.

~~~
dang
Right, we changed it a while ago. The submitted title was "The US has 727
million barrels of oil hidden in underground salt caverns". Submitters: it
breaks the site guidelines to do that, and we eventually take submission
privileges away from such accounts. There's plenty of explanation for anyone
who wants more:

[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20cherry-
picking%20title&sort=byDate&type=comment)

[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20%22level%20playing%20field%22&sort=byDate&type=comment)

(If you want us to know something, please email hn@ycombinator.com. We only
see comments like this randomly.)

~~~
pdonis
_> we changed it a while ago_

I saw that, yes.

 _> (If you want us to know something, please email hn@ycombinator.com. We
only see comments like this randomly.)_

Ah, good to know, thanks!

------
exabrial
I wouldn't call it "hidden", it's public knowledge. It needs to be filled
however because oil is so cheap.

And for the keyboard nay-sayers that are typing on a keyboard made of ABS,
walking their down on a nylon leash, holding their iPhone in a TPU case,
drinking from a polycarbonate reusable water bottle, wondering how we're going
to refine steel for wind turbines, oil is an incredible useful substance.

Let's learn from the N95 mask shortage. It's incredibly important to have
national stockpiles to decouple ourselves from the events in the world (like
the one happening now).

~~~
geofft
[https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/](https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/)

I don't think any of the "keyboard nay-sayers" are saying that petroleum isn't
useful, and it's worth engaging with their actual arguments.

~~~
fastball
That comic is a terrible Reductio ad absurdum. The first one is a fair point –
Apple products are not a necessity. Therefore if you think the company behind
them is behaving unethically, don't buy their products in order to not support
their activities.

The other two examples – not so much.

~~~
geofft
Sure, but

1\. The validity of the argument isn't affected by whether one is a hypocrite.
If Apple is indeed behaving unethically, it's still behaving unethically even
if I own an iPhone. If Apple isn't behaving unethically, then you should be
able to argue that on grounds other than "you bought an iPhone." The poster in
this case made specific, refutable claims - that Apple dodges taxes and can't
pay decent wages to their Chinese factory workers. A legitimate
counterargument is that they don't in fact dodge taxes or do in fact pay
decent wages (or perhaps that their current behavior is okay), not an attack
on the person making the argument.

2\. Apple products are not a necessity, but in the current era, a smartphone
is very close to a necessity (yes, there are people who steadfastly avoid
them, and there are also people who live in the forest, that's not what
"necessity" means). And there are relatively few options for good smartphones,
none of which come from morally blameless companies. (Personally, I find
security valuable, and Apple has the best track record of producing phones
with long-term security support, which means you can buy _fewer_ Apple
products than anything else.) It might be hypocritical to buy a product from
company X while steadfastly believing that company X is behaving unethically,
but it's hardly a sign that you don't in fact believe that company X behaves
unethically. You might simply have weight the alternatives and decided that
buying from company X is the best of several bad options.

~~~
fastball
1\. I think the issue is that "unethically" is a very subjective standard. The
hypocrisy does not invalidate the argument, it merely brings into question
whether this is an "accurate" moral judgement if it is not serious enough to
warrant a (relatively easy) change in behavior from the person espousing it.
In other words: morality is very inherently subjective, so hypocrisy _does_
matter. It's not about convincing me that something is _happening_ (like
sweatshops). Facts are easy. The problem is convincing me that the thing that
is happening is _bad_. And you're not going to do that if you can't put your
money where your mouth is. If you're a hypocrite about issues of morality,
you're either preaching to the choir, or you're not going to convince anyone.

2\. If _I_ truly believed Apple and every other smartphone manufacturer was
causing human suffering to produce their smartphones, my own morality would
dictate that my "need" for a smartphone still does not justify the purchase of
one. It's a null point to me though, because A. I don't actually believe that
Apple's manufacturing practices are "wrong", and B. I know plenty of
successful people that get by without smartphones in the current era.

~~~
Klinky
Are the working standards to a level you would feel comfortable working in?
Would you personally be okay putting together smartphone products and/or
pulling rare metals out of the ground?

The alternative to a smart phone is a feature phone made in a similar factory,
and the alternative to that is a landline, also made in a similar factory, and
the alternative to all that is maybe a laptop with VoIP, also made in a
similar factory... It's exploitation all the way down.

When the markets only way to offer prosperity to some is to exploit and shaft
others, while maintaining the position of elite classes, there is a problem.

~~~
fastball
You say exploitation, I say more opportunity than they had before.

~~~
Klinky
That doesn't answer the question at all. It sounds like you are saying you
wouldn't work in those conditions. Why? Because the conditions are poor. Poor
conditions with little alternatives... Hmm, one could say such situations are
ripe for _exploitation_.

Just because the alternative is potential death, it does not excuse
exploitative practices.

~~~
fastball
I wouldn't work in a plethora of roles. In fact, the vast majority of "jobs"
that have existed in the history of humanity I would prefer not to do.

That doesn't mean anyone doing them is being "exploited". And if that _is_
your definition of exploitation, you've reduced the word to be effectively
meaningless.

~~~
Klinky
> I wouldn't work in a plethora of roles. In fact, the vast majority of "jobs"
> that have existed in the history of humanity I would prefer not to do.

Examples and why would you prefer not to do them? Are they legally allowed in
your country anymore? Is there a reason for that? Perhaps because they are now
considered _exploitative_?

> That doesn't mean anyone doing them is being "exploited". And if that is
> your definition of exploitation, you've reduced the word to be effectively
> meaningless.

It sounds to me like you don't even have "exploitation" in your vocabulary, as
your bar is so low, you wouldn't consider anything exploitative.

Literally multi-nationals exploit labor law differences to extract cost
savings, and obfuscated supply chains to launder the blood off the raw
materials they put into products. This is exploitative. Perhaps you should
just come to terms with the fact that you are OK with it.

