
NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor - gridscomputing
http://blog.sfgate.com/techchron/2013/06/10/on-first-glance-nsa-leaker-appears-a-patriot-not-a-traitor/
======
guelo
We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist
on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be
outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government
officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time,
they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused,
every time. If that makes it harder to conduct wars or espionage, well too
bad. If you remember from the game Civilization, democracy is not a good
system for a warmongering state. And that's a good thing.

~~~
aheilbut
If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see
that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things.
All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and
continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty,
but that's how things are.

It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of
balance and these agencies (and contractors!) need to be better controlled,
but this pseudo-libertarian nihilism about government betrays an ignorance of
realities that are much more fundamental than who is tracking phone call
metadata.

~~~
anaptdemise
On the topic of history...

"After the fall of the Roman Republic, the constitutional balance of power
shifted from the Roman Senate to the Roman Emperor. Though retaining its legal
position as under the Republic, in practice, however the actual authority of
the Imperial Senate was negligible, as the Emperor held the true power in the
state. As such, membership in the Senate became sought after by individuals
seeking prestige and social standing, rather than actual authority."

[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_senate#Senate_of_the_Rom...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_senate#Senate_of_the_Roman_Empire)]

Imagine for a moment, further expansion of executive autonomy and power. Then
review recent elections with the definition of populism in mind. There are
stark similarities.

"When Hitler was appointed in January 1933, Germany was a democracy. Germany
had fair elections; nobody had their right to vote abused; there were numerous
political parties you could vote for etc. To pass a law, the Reichstag had to
agree to it after a bill went through the normal processes of discussion,
arguments etc. Within the Reichstag of January 1933, over 50% of those who
held seats were against the Nazi Party. Therefore it would have been very
unlikely for Hitler to have got passed into law what he wanted. Many saw
Hitler as a fall-guy politician who would have to shoulder to blame if things
got worse under his leadership.

Hitler had promised a general election for March 1933. This would have been,
in his mind, the perfect opportunity for him to show all politicians who
opposed him where the true loyalties lay in the German people. In fact, 1932
had shown Hitler that there was a possibility that support for the Nazis had
peaked as their showing in the November 1932 election had shown. Anything
other than a huge endorsement of Hitler and the Nazi Party would have been a
disaster and a gamble which it is possible that Hitler did not want to take.

One week before the election was due to take place, the Reichstag building
burned down. Hitler immediately declared that it was the signal for a
communist takeover of the nation. Hitler knew that if he was to convince
President Hindenburg to give him emergency powers - as stated in the Weimar
Constitution - he had to play on the old president's fear of communism. What
better than to convince him that the communists were about to take over the
nation by force?"

[[http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Nazi_Germany_dictatorsh...](http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Nazi_Germany_dictatorship.htm)]

Even in a well formed government, there are possible scenarios that play out
with catastrophic results. As politics become more polarized and government
exerts more authority, it is more likely that individual opportunists can
raise to dominant positions and wreak havoc on policy and settle vendettas
against political opponents.

~~~
aheilbut
Be slightly careful with your analogies between the US and Nazi Germany, too.

~~~
hso9791
Before Nazi Germany it was just Germany. Unless one is racist against Germans,
one must in the interest of humanity seek to understand exactly how that
transition happened.

~~~
jussij
> one must in the interest of humanity seek to understand exactly how that
> transition happened.

I suspect Martin-Niemöller had some insight into how this happened:

 _First they came for the communists, and I didn 't speak out because I wasn't
a communist._

 _Then they came for the socialists, and I didn 't speak out because I wasn't
a socialist._

 _Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn 't speak out because I
wasn't a trade unionist._

 _Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me._

~~~
brazzy
And I told them "hey, you forgot about the gays, and I can tell you where they
are!"

------
neltnerb
I find this kind of thing particularly interesting because I am the same age
as Snowden.

For reference, 9/11 is one of the defining events of my adult life. It
happened during freshman physics lecture on my second week of classes at MIT.
I considered joining the military, I protested in the streets against the war
in Iraq. I remember the Patriot act being passed very well, and remember
wishing people could see how shortsighted it was at the time. There is a
particularly clarity ( _cough_ naivete) that comes with being 18 years old.

I feel like people who are much older than me remember previous major
government corruption issues like Iran-Contra which I was only three years old
for.

I feel like people who are much younger than me don't have any frame of
reference for a time when surveillance wasn't the assumed state of affairs.

So, this fellow is particularly interesting to me because it seems like he,
like me, has had his perspective on what the USA is defined by 9/11, the
Patriot Act, the Afghanistan and Iraq not-wars, and a financial collapse.

I don't know that I really have a point; these issues are so multifaceted that
I can't really consider them without being overwhelmed.

I do hope that this combined with the IRS scandal and the phone taps on
reporters will push the electorate in a more libertarian direction. But I'm
not counting on it, people are incredibly selfish in practice and vote for
their perceived short-term interests even when their interests violate the
liberties of others. That seems to in this culture just be standard practice,
and if that's part of the culture I don't think things are going to go
anywhere good.

~~~
m52go
Have you seen the spin the mainstream media is putting on this issue?

It's sickening.

 _If_ the issue is covered (earlier, CNN felt it necessary to talk about
oversized rubber-duckies and some phenomenon called 'crazy ants' instead),
coverage NEVER questions the existence of the surveillance itself. Instead,
the WAY the government handles the surveillance is questioned (contracting it
out, etc).

So, yes, in a perfect world, people would see this news and question it, where
'it' is the existence of such egregious surveillance measures.

Unfortunately, the majority of Americans aren't that thorough in their
thinking, and instead will ponder the questions the mainstream media feeds
them.

And these questions just so happen to be pure bullshit.

~~~
hkmurakami
_> coverage NEVER questions the existence of the surveillance itself. Instead,
the WAY the government handles the surveillance is questioned (contracting it
out, etc)._

So true. I saw a headline today that read "Booz Allen contracts in jeapoardy
after NSA leak?" and I thought really? _that 's_ what's what we should be
asking for?

Well at least in my family the dialogue has been: wow, what a young, smart,
brave guy.

~~~
wmeredith
CNN did a whole segment tonight on Snowden titled "Patriot or Traitor?"

------
freerobby
"Is Snowden a hero or a traitor? Stay tuned if you can only hold one
simplistic juvenile idea in your head at a time."

[https://twitter.com/pourmecoffee/status/344202042019045377](https://twitter.com/pourmecoffee/status/344202042019045377)

~~~
d23
I don't know in what twisted stretch of the imagination someone can consider
Snowden a traitor, unless he is blatantly lying. He didn't reveal _anything_
that would be bad enough to actually harm anyone's life. And if he's telling
us the truth, he did nothing less than a public service service, putting his
own life at risk.

~~~
Steko
"I don't know in what twisted stretch of the imagination someone can consider
Snowden a traitor, unless he is blatantly lying."

So you couldn't imagine X would be true about Y unless Y did something that
many people do all the time?

~~~
d23
Oh sure, people make up national secrets that will put their life at risk all
the time.

------
brown9-2
I wish everyone would wait more than 24 hours before drawing such concrete
conclusions. We barely know that much of the story here yet, and I imagine a
lot more of it is going to come out in the next few days (such as his true
location, more about his career in the IC, etc.).

In the past there have been dissidents like this where it turned out years
later that a foreign intelligence service was behind them the whole time
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_and_Mitchell_defection](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_and_Mitchell_defection)).

I'm not saying that is the case here, but this news cycle is making everyone
crazy - just think that we've known this guy's name for only approximately 24
hours.

~~~
godgod
Will you believe ANYTHING the news puts about him? I won't. With a very few
exceptions (Guardian) the MSM are suspect. It's all state driven
misinformation.

The US gov's "trash his reputation machine" is in overdrive.

~~~
mseebach
The Guardian has the the distinct edge of having exclusive access to the few
actual facts in this case. That is a clear advantage, no doubt about that. But
make no mistake, the Guardian has a substantial arsenal of axes to grind.

------
jmduke
46 points in fifteen minutes and not a single comment? This NSA issue is
seeming less and less like a discussion topic and more like a echo chamber,
despite the rampant lack of information on all sides of the event.

~~~
Taylorious
This whole story has had a baffling effect on HN. For the last few days 4/5ths
of everything on the frontpage has been related to the NSA. I'm not saying
that its not an important issue, but Christ do we need to have every bloggers
opinion upvoted to the top? Even Apple was only able to make the top of front
page for a short time. This is HN and Apple's latest news is not the top
story. It's like I'm on a completely different site.

~~~
javajosh
What astounds me is that the mainstream media is not similarly in uproar.
People don't seem to understand what this means: the government is spying on
us, it is lying about the spying, and now it is telling us to not worry about
it, to just move along, AND WE'RE DOING IT.

This is the most alarming thing I've seen in my adult life.

~~~
anigbrowl
The government isn't really spying on us en masse, any more than terrorists
are out to get us en masse. for one thing, people are more concerned with
external threats than internal ones (and I think that's reasonably rational,
because the US is really a very long way from anything resembling
totalitarianism); for another, most people assume taht the government already
has/had access to what you do on your cellphone/facebook/internet searches so
actual evidence of data manaing doesn't seem all that big of a revelation.
Most Americans are already used to having everything they do entered into a
database already; consider that the course of most people's lives are already
shaped by their credit scores without any particular help from the government.
At least you can FOIA the government to see what information they have on you.
Good luck getting any private firm like Google to give you that information;
we had to pass a law to ensure people have access to their own credit report,
and that only entitles one free request annually.

~~~
javajosh
>The government isn't really spying on us en masse

Actually they are.

>most people assume taht the government already has/had access to what you do
on your cellphone/facebook/internet searches

I think that most people assume that email is just like mail: private, and
protected by the 4th amendment. I think most people assume that their phone
records are similarly protected. And I doubt that most people, possibly
including people in Congress, know what is possible to infer from the data
they are collecting.

~~~
anigbrowl
I don't count trawling data as described so far to be spying, any more than I
consider my back yard getting photographed by spy satellites to mean they're
spying on my place of residence.

 _I think that most people assume that email is just like mail: private, and
protected by the 4th amendment. I think most people assume that their phone
records are similarly protected._

The law has said otherwise for >30 years, and I think most people who think
about it are aware that their email and phone records are stored by 3rd
parties. Do you have evidence for your view, or are you just projecting what
you think _should_ be the case onto everyone else?

~~~
javajosh
> are you just projecting what you think should be the case onto everyone
> else?

Projecting, mainly. Just like you. Pew did a phone survey that shows 56% of
people believe it's okay to give up privacy to defeat terrorism. But even that
doesn't really go to what people believe about their privacy right now.

~~~
anigbrowl
_Projecting, mainly. Just like you._

No, I think we should have more robust privacy protections and that this would
require a constitutional amendment, but I'm also aware that my view has little
traction at present. I'm sanguine about monitoring of things like CDRs because
it seems an inevitable result of technology, and it's unrealistic to expect
the government to put itself at a legal disadvantage compared to individuals
and businesses. On the other hand, this fact of modern technological life is
why I choose not to put my life on services like Facebook, despite the
significant social disadvantages that entails.

~~~
javajosh
> people are more concerned with external threats than internal ones

> most people assume taht the government already has/had access to what you do
> on your cellphone/facebook/internet searches so actual evidence of data
> manaing doesn't seem all that big of a revelation.

No, you're not projecting at all, are you.

~~~
anigbrowl
When the matter is considered a good punchline on late night chat shows, I
think there's some evidence for my view of what people in general think. I
spent over a decade working in customer-facing IT so I'm summarizing my
experience of the attitudes I encountered. I'm not sure what axe you're trying
to grind here.

------
skwirl
Could the media please make an effort not to write articles primarily
responding to tweets? This is barely one step above writing articles
responding to Youtube comments (please don't get any ideas). You'll find
whatever crap you want to find on Twitter. There should be plenty of actual
thought out and (intentionally) publicly published opinions longer than 140
characters out there to reply to. It brings your article down in my eyes when
you respond to tweets of random private individuals.

I know these people are making public tweets, but ultimately they are not
public figures and scouring twitter for their tweets and then exposing them to
legions of your like minded followers for public evisceration seems...
unprofessional.

------
u2328
I love the government's response here. "Sure, we can have a debate about state
surveillance, but the guy that forced this debate IS A NO GOOD DIRTY TRAITOR!"

~~~
nano111
and we could not catch this traitor with those 80 billions

~~~
mpyne
Hence the reason I tell you all that neither the NSA nor the U.S. government
is actually omnipotent or all-powerful. :P

~~~
u2328
I do agree with that statement, but it doesn't mean they can do a whole lot of
damage. From Iraq to Aaron Schwartz, when the US government turns it's big
sloppy attention at you, watch out.

~~~
mpyne
Ah but see, I take a near-fatalist attitude to that. Iraq will go down in the
history books as a travesty, no doubt about that. But Swartz was treated in
accordance with the law, even though the law has been modified over centuries
to slowly add more protections.

So the way I see it, if your _only_ goal when considering the law is how you
will prevent this new ability from ever seriously affecting anyone innocent
you've already locked yourself into a NULL set. Even in our justice system,
with warrants and probable cause and the right to remain silent and the works
we still lock up innocent people, do we not?

But imagine instead that we take that big huge nasty government and at least
point it in a useful direction; perhaps that would be a more effective way to
prevent a slide into tyranny in the future.

------
alan_cx
Neither word apply.

"Patriot", to me, suggests a unquestioning loyalty, lack of thought or
perspective. "Traitor" suggests selling out both government and people to a
foreign enemy.

Both are too broad, blunt, and loaded to describe anything useful.

What this man did was expose the government for the sake of the very people
the government are supposed to answer to.

The problem his the the huge disconnect between government and the population.

~~~
chongli
__pa·tri·ot __[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, esp. British, pa-tree-uht]

 _noun_

1\. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its
interests with devotion.

2\. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, especially of
individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.

#2 seems bang-on to me. A perfect description of Snowden.

------
lmg643
I'm surprised we haven't seen more discussion of NSA leaker as a potential
foreign intelligence coup. Think of the timing, right before a summit with
China. And he defects to Hong Kong. Not to get too nutty here, but its worth
considering. Arguably our government did all this to try and protect us and
here we are going ballistic - what if the leak was a setup to shatter our
negotiating leverage? Lesser of two evils kind of thing.

~~~
ihsw
It may in fact be the reverse -- he could be a double agent and this could be
a publicity stunt. The USG may have determined that this leak was inevitable
and they decided to take control of the situation.

What is the end-goal? Legitimizing and expediting the surveillance industrial
complex. The recent news about Indian authorities wanting to establish their
own surveillance infrastructure certainly has many USG government contractors
licking their lips waiting for the purchase orders to roll in.

~~~
myle
Given few enough data points, you can fit any theory you want.

------
dllthomas
_' [T]he word "pardon" is trouncing "extradition"'_

To be fair, I think more people _know_ the word "pardon" than the word
"extradition"...

~~~
mpyne
And likewise there's a big difference between being inflamed about the issue
and actually wanting to see the guy get punished.

------
michaelwww
Does anyone else find it ironic that they couldn't detect Snowdon
communicating with Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras?

~~~
windexh8er
Ironic? Not in the least. Even if he only mildly knew about the things he
described he has an understanding of the points of tap the state actors have
free access to. In all generalities hiding from the NSA should be trivial with
simple precautions (as it pertains to the Internet). Part of the problem is
that those points of access are generally revered as daily can't-live-withouts
and present trivial access and collection easement. The more interesting point
will likely be that they don't find him - and then generalizations can be made
about the efficacy of the NSA without their crutch. Good old 'Catch Me if You
Can'?

TL;DR Just because it's the NSA doesn't mean you can't beat them at what they
do. There's always someone in the room smarter than yourself.

~~~
michaelwww
You don't understand irony. Many people don't (Alanis Morissette.) If my house
burns down, that's unfortunate. If I install a fire detection system in my
house and through a fault in itself it burns my house down, that's ironic.

~~~
windexh8er
Really? It's not ironic because it's obvious - just not to you apparently. So
in that regard it's not ironic that you misunderstood the response.

\-- an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

~~~
michaelwww
I see you're point but mine's funnier. It's ok to take a little license in
humor. You sucked all the funny out of it.

------
tn13
The whole idea of having democracy is that people should be able to throw out
the people in power in case they make decisions that don't go well with the
majority.

I don't have much problem in Government keeping phone records (I don't use a
cellphone any way) but I do have a problem they doing this without telling me.
NSA leaker has done the right thing. He must be hailed as a hero.

------
trotsky
It's true, but at least an older generation sees any kind of out of band
disclosure as a fundamental attack on their views ob punishment. My father,
for exmaple, recently retired but still works in the intelligence community.
He bloody _hates_ all of the bulk surveillance, and is very careful about what
he publishes on the internet.

He routinely complains that current executive orders vis-aa-vis afgan tactics
go too far, and never believed iraq made sense excpet to jr.

but once somoone has dropped TS/NOFORN docs all over, he'll never give the guy
even one bit of respect. Instead (and just like manning) he's quite riled up
about how such a breech (even though he ws shocked and upset to read the
lengths of data being hoovered) benefitted none of us. And yet having an
official reference for things I'd be prone to rail on after a handful of
drinks does us all good. Before the unfortunate listened would have to nod
pollitely and meekly suggest, well I'm sur they're jusy looking out for us.

I doubt many will end up seeing iy that way.

------
radley
To call him a whistleblower would presume wrongdoing.

The govt can't admit to wrongdoing, so they have to use the word traitor.

~~~
cheald
That's a very observant point. The language they're taking is as defensive of
their own actions as it is offensive against his.

------
dean
Just that I would point out that Peter King (R-New York) has supported
terrorist organizations himself, namely the Irish Republican Army.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._King#Support_for_the_I...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._King#Support_for_the_IRA)

[http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-
march-10-2011/radical-...](http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-
march-10-2011/radical-muslim-hearings)

------
asperous
I dislike how the focus is on Snowden now, and not on fixing the problem.

~~~
devb
Drama sells. This is the unfortunate state of mainstream media.

------
msandford
Is it just me, or does it seem like this guy probably isn't holed up in Hong
Kong but elsewhere? I really hope this guy is smart enough to not actually
advertise where in the world he actually is to a bunch of people that would
likely have no problems disappearing him. I really hope he's already in
Iceland.

~~~
briholt
It seemed suspicious that in his video interview he said "there's a CIA
station right up the street," thus alluding to his location relative to the US
embassy. That seems like a way too carelessly revealing statement for an NSA
hacker who is so cautious he reportedly covers his keyboard under a sweater
while he types his password. So careless it seemed contrived.

------
MrQuincle
I know one thing and that is that I would not play the role of whistleblower
and it is exactly because I do not care how much the US is spying as being
someone from another country. So, I can only conclude that this makes him a
patriot from my point of view, because why would he risk his job, etc.!?

------
robotjosh
Why does everyone assume China is doing industrial espionage, but nobody
imagines PRISM is being used for that. If a low level employee has such
access, the only question is how many people are using this to cheat the stock
market? Are there trading algorithms that have access to PRISM?

~~~
cmiles74
I took it for granted that PRISM is also used for industrial espionage. It
seems like this is the "low hanging fruit" for such a system. I'm not
surprised that this isn't something the media is talking about since we're
giving China such a hard time about it.

------
quizotic
1\. A few weeks ago, President Obama said he would discuss the issue of cyber-
espionage during his meeting with the Chinese leader, Xi Jinping.

2\. At about the time of their meeting, two separate stories of massive US
Govt surveillance of its own citizens hits the press.

3\. The individual who leaked the PRISM story is now allegedly in Hong Kong,
his whereabouts unknown.

Encrypt that.

------
nano111
Although I don't think this petition should be hosted by the government, here
it is: Pardon Edward Snowden ->
[https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-
snow...](https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-
snowden/Dp03vGYD)

------
bomatson
He is a patriot, we are all responsible if he is wrongly prosecuted.

How long until they start committing citizens Judge Dredd style?

------
electric_u
Physical security (as it relates to freedom) does not have to be provided. If
I have a gun and an armored car then I have a significant amount of physical
security regardless of any rules. If I have a bunch of rules but I am stuck in
a dark alley with a thug then I have neither security nor freedom.

------
m52go
It's very simple, really. I'm sure most of you have heard this before and know
who said it:

 _Truth is treason in the empire of lies._

It just so happens that the people are hidden in bunkers of truth while their
government is in denial inside the empire of lies.

It's time to set the record straight.

------
a3n
Traitor or patriot is not defined by the current crowd in office, or by
whether you support the current questionable policies.

A patriot is someone who consistently defends the constitution, which every
one of those clowns took an oath to do.

L'État n'est pas eux.

------
alphagen
I bet Congress would be completely up in arms if the government was secretly
keeping track of gun purchases. It's interesting how much representatives care
about some rights over others.

------
bomatson
He is a patriot, and we are all responsible if he is wrongly persecuted

------
sigzero
I have not heard "traitor" ascribed to him. What he did was certainly illegal,
whether you agree with what he did or not. If he gets extradited, he will go
to jail.

~~~
nano111
sigzero--

------
RexRollman
I agree with the sentiment but those responsible won't. They can't, because to
do so would be an admission that what they were doing was wrong.

------
dnautics
worth reading a counterpoint article (which I happen to disagree with):

[http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/06/edward...](http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/06/edward-
snowden-nsa-leaker-is-no-hero.html?mbid=social_retweet)

------
gummydude
NSA just a cover up for S.H.I.E.L.D. the international espionage agency
watching all of us around the world. :(

------
photorized
Last I checked, 'hero' mentions were outnumbering 'traitor' mentions on
Twitter 2 to 1.

------
guscost
Tell that to Dianne Feinstein.

------
_nato_
logged into HN for the first time in a _long_ while just to up this.

------
geldedus
given the huge brainwashing, I'm not surprised

------
wallacrw
Hodor

------
insuffi
You americans and your "everyone is out to get us" mentality is laughable. The
fact of the matter is this - what the government has done is intrinsically
unconstitutional. People calling the leaker a traitor try to back it up with
the fact that he signed a non-disclosue agreement and that the law approved by
a secret court says PRISM is constitutional.

Well isn't this a nice, little euthyphro dillemma? If congress rules that
PRISM is unconstitutional, Snowden is suddenly NOT a traiter anymore?

Another thing - constantly mentioning "security" as a reason for surveilling
an entire state just proves how much americans think with their fear, instead
of their brain. Not a lot of other countries have this problem.

Lastly, by definition, U.s. is now a fascist state.

1.Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant
use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia

Check.

2.Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and
the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human
rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need.

Check

3\. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are
rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a
perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities;
liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists.

Check.

4.Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic
problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government
funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service
are glamorized.

Check.

5.Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost
exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles
are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and
the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

Check.

6\. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by
the government over the masses.

Check

7\. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of
a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power,
creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power
elite

Check.

8\. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police
are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing
to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of
patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited
power in fascist nations.

Check

The reason Snowden is hunted down is because he embarrassed the u.s.
government. Not because he is a traitor, not because he aided Enemy(whoever
that may be).

Stop watching the tv and absorbing the propaganda you're fed, and you'll
realize much more.

------
godgod
Edward Snowden is a hero. This is a criminal government. Innocent citizens of
the world are now enemies of the US police state.

~~~
ppplllok
why he choose the time Obama meeting with Xi, you know they will talk about
network hacking issue? why he select Hongkong for asylum ? He was not such
simple, he mean it.

------
godgod
I'M MAD AS HELL...AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!!

“This administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we
cherish and the security we provide. I will provide our intelligence and law
enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the
terrorists without undermining the Constitution and our freedom. That means no
more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security
letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking
citizens who do nothing but protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law
when it is inconvenient. It is not who we are. It is not what is necessary to
defeat the terrorists. The FISA Court works. The separation of powers works.
Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the
law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers and that justice is not
arbitrary. This administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way
to enhance our security. It is not. There are no short cuts to protecting
America.” - Obama

~~~
D_Alex
>I'M MAD AS HELL...AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!!

I understand your anger.... and i am curious: what actions are you planning to
take?

------
godgod
Tell me he's not a criminal liar after watching this.

Barack Obama: 10 Questions: Warrantless Wiretaps

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fnfVJzZT4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fnfVJzZT4)

~~~
javert
I can tell you he's a criminal liar without watching that.

------
jhprks
From now on I'll just be keeping my information secure, and as far as whatever
really happened behind PRISM I'm just gonna wait until some director makes a
movie about it.

------
godgod
This applies today more than ever. Up vote if you agree.

First they came for the conservatives, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't
a conservative.

Then they came for the tea party member, and I didn't speak out because I
wasn't a tea party member.

Then they came for the Libertarians, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a
libertarian.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a
Catholic.

Then they came for the Christians, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a
Christian.

Then they came for the Gun Owner, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a
Gun Owner.

Then they came for the activists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a
activist.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

~~~
josh2600
This is everything I hate about Reddit/Chain Letters/Mom and Dads Internet.

You can make lists and ask for upvotes, but instead why don't you go and do
some activism. Get off your ass and organize meetings, raise hell until you
get people to care about the things you care about.

Sending chain letters on HackerNews is the most Masturbatory thing you can do
on the internet besides the deed itself.

~~~
godgod
[https://www.eff.org/action](https://www.eff.org/action)

Offline action taken. I protest and don't just sit on my ass. I spread the
word. Comments on hn is just one mechanism. I fully agree with you though, get
off your ass and do something.

~~~
josh2600
I wasn't implying you weren't an activist, but I do think posting a link to
the EFF will result in a better response than a chain mail.

I'm not one to compare the holocaust with mass surveillance anyways.

Cheers for coming back and trying to add a little sensibility to the
discussion :).

------
suyash
In my opinion, he is a Traitor just like Bradley Manning for jeopardizing
National Security.

~~~
EliRivers
It's possible to also be a hero for jeopardising national security. Bad
nations _should_ be jeopardised. It's how they become good nations. They stay
bad nations when their citizens repeat the mantras they've been taught rather
than thinking. Bullshit like "My country, right or wrong" and worshipping
flags and all that sort of junk.

It appears that the United States is _still_ , incredible as it seems, a
country producing citizens willing to put themselves at risk when the United
States is threatened (and let's be serious for a moment here - terrorism was
never a threat to the United States, but _this_ is part of an ongoing
existential threat to the United States, from its own government; the very
people who _should_ be saying "Calm down, folks; times may be scary but let's
not throw away our country out of fear," are instead simply competing with
each other, spurring hysteria for votes and metaphorically burning the flag
they bizarrely teach children to worship). Long may these citizens last.

~~~
jivatmanx
I prefer this Ben Franklin quote, it address the exact same question, but
takes a different position:

"The deliberations of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 were held in
strict secrecy. Consequently, anxious citizens gathered outside Independence
Hall when the proceedings ended in order to learn what had been produced
behind closed doors. The answer was provided immediately. A Mrs. Powel of
Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a
republic or a monarchy?” With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, “A
republic, if you can keep it.”" (Benjamin Franklin)

~~~
EliRivers
The prognosis is not good. There is unquestionably a new aristocracy who are
not subject to the same rules as ordinary citizens. Wealth and power is bound
in small groups who assist each other in keeping it. It's never been harder to
transcend a humble (i.e. poor) start and join the ranks of wealth and power,
so the lines between aristocracy and peasant are being solidified (although
you wouldn't know it from the propaganda I hear, and in some places it really
is just plain propaganda; I used to hear on US radio, just from out-of-
nowhere, what were essentially sixty second propaganda pieces describing some
guy who made a fortune in business).

While it's still a voting republic, the monied use that money to teach the
poor how to vote (predictably, in a way that means they get to keep their
money and power).

