
Ask HN: Why U.S. people dislike Nokia? - Vargas
Disclaimer: I'm European. I have never been in the U.S. I am not related to Nokia at all.<p>Reading Hacker news and other U.S-centric news sites, it looks like there is nothing but Apple and Android. Whenever Nokia gets mentioned, there is some disdain. However, Nokia sells about 35% of all mobile devices in the world. I myself own one. I really like the platform. It is open source, it runs Java, it supports Flash and it is very pleasant to write applications using C++ and QT. It is a no-BS platform, just unlike Apple's policy-hell. In short, from my point of view is the ideal platform to build for: huge market, no politics, solid open source platform.<p>Why is it almost always ignored? Did they do something horribly wrong in the U.S. market and never recovered? Is it seen as "unpatriotic" because is foreign? Do you feel it as technically inferior?
======
byoung2
_I'm European. I have never been in the U.S_

That's Nokia's problem as well. The cell-phone market in the US is much
different from Europe and the rest of the world. It is my understanding that
in Europe and the rest of the world people by phones (usually in cash) and
service separately (often prepaid), so cell phone makers have only one
customer to please: the end user.

In the US, where we are addicted to credit, people buy phones primarily
through the cell phone provider for a big discount in exchange for signing a 1
or 2 year contract. Since the selection of phones drives the profit for the
cell phone provider (See AT&T and the iPhone for an example), the phone
company has a huge stake in making sure the phones fit their image. So the
cell phone maker has 2 customers - the phone company and the end user. Every
carrier has a signature phone: AT&T - iPhone, Verizon - Droid, Sprint - EVO
4G. These phones become almost synonymous with the carrier, and less with the
brand (iPhone being the big exception).

Nokia's problem for the last decade is that they have been used to pleasing
only the end user, that they have not been able to win over the American cell
phone providers. A good example is the late 90's, where Americans had moved on
to flip phones, but Nokia was still pushing brick/candy bar phones. They are
starting to innovate, but they still haven't captured the heart of the
American cell phone buyer.

The other hurdle for Nokia is CDMA. I'm not sure if they have CDMA versions of
their phones (this is probably because they'd have to work with Sprint and
Verizon to do so). They'd have to retool most of their phones to work in the
US, which might not be worth it if the cell phone companies aren't on board.

~~~
alanh
Of course Nokia has CDMA phones. For example, I used to have a Nokia feature
phone on Tracfone, which piggybacked off the Verizon network.

There is little awareness of or marketing for Nokia smartphones. In my mind
and in likely many others, Nokia phones belong to the past generation of
button-only, non-touchscreen phones.

~~~
byoung2
I meant to say CDMA versions of _most_ of their phones, especially the newer
smartphones. It would likely take a CDMA version of the n97, n95, n900, etc on
Sprint or Verizon to win over the American public.

------
sounddust
I haven't seen a Nokia phone that has the kind of intuitive, well-organized,
attractive, and responsive UI that we see with the iPhone and Android phones.
I have some friends who have expensive Nokia phones and like to brag about
their capabilities, but when you actually see these phones in use, they just
aren't as enjoyable to use due to the OS which seems unrefined (I'd go so far
as to say it seems unfinished).

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpEuMidcSU> is a perfect example of what I'm
talking about. If you were to make a list with checkboxes, it would seem that
the N97 is as good as an iPhone. But if you actually use it...

I don't think it's a U.S. vs Europe thing; it's just that Nokia had a
headstart in Europe. I would bet that they're losing market share here in
Europe as well. At least in France, it seems that everyone has an iPhone these
days.

That having been said, I do think Nokia makes excellent hardware, particularly
the actual phone functionality (voice quality, not dropping calls, etc). If
they could just bring their OS up to par, they would see some attention and
success in the US.

~~~
potatolicious
I have to echo this. In fact, I had the chance to use a N900 just a couple of
days ago. I'm not going to lie, it's a gigantic piece of junk, let me
enumerate the ways:

\- Resistive touchscreen in this day and age? The light touches that I can use
on every Android phone and iPhone turn into concerted screen-mashing on the
Nokia. The drags and flicks that have become popular (and important) gestures
are hard to do on the N900, if not impossible, because the hardware itself
simply isn't up to the task.

\- The UI was painfully, ridiculously slow. IMHO Android's UI on most current
phones is already sluggish, but usable. Nokia's is just way into unusable-
land. Button-press lag of over a second (sometimes several seconds) was
common, and would elicit double-pressing by the user (which the OS will then
happily process). Navigation of menus and other UI elements was just about
completely impossible because of the slowness. How enjoyable would your
computer be if every mouse click took a whole second to register, and you had
no hint that the phone is actually working in the background? Couple this with
an insensitive screen that would routinely miss presses in-hardware, and you
can see where this is going.

\- An insistence on animation on a platform that is clearly too slow for it.
Apple's UI is a joy to use because of the transitions and animations that
accompany many user actions. Android does this too, but the slight
sluggishness makes this appear somewhat unrefined - but that's okay. The
framerate I got on the Nokia apps was so slow that it became confusing if the
machine is in the middle of a transition or just plain done.

The UI was also somewhat confusing - but I'm willing to let that one slide.
Every platform has certain metaphors and paradigms that the user must learn,
so having not _used_ one on a day to day basis I can't really comment on
whether or not the UI in fact sucks.

~~~
smokestack
Having used Maemo/N900 for several months, I've never experienced a problem
with click lag. It's easily as responsive if not more than iPhones and
Android-based phones I've used.

It's difficult to assert that an interface in its entirety is unrefined or
unfinished having only used it for a few minutes. I very rarely found myself
confused or frustrated by the interface after using it for a day. Every
devices has its flaws, every user his/her preferences and expectations. I
bought it because I wanted a fully open Linux OS running in my pocket. Not to
be snarky (ok, maybe a little), but if I wanted a Fisher Price toy, I'd buy an
Apple product. The two devices decisively appeal to different crowds.

~~~
nailer
Most people find that fisher price toy a more practical device than your fully
functional linux device.

~~~
smokestack
Most people think the cow goes "quack"

~~~
nailer
I'm fairly sure they don't. But more to the point, personal usefulness is
subjective, your counterpoint is objective.

------
aidenn0
[edit] Quick clarification: The OP compared Nokia to Apple and Android, so my
answer was specifically about Nokia smartphones. Nokia feature-phones have
always had a decent market share in the US, and I think that the average
person in the US thinks of those feature-phones when they hear the word Nokia,
and has no clue that the E or N series phones even exist. [/edit]

I live in the US. I've never actually seen a phone running Symbian in person.
The only Nokia phones I've ever seen are feature phones. I don't just mean I
don't know anyone that has one, I've never seen one in a store when shopping
for a cell phone; of course I don't own one!

I work at a tech company where probably about half the people have smartphones
of some sort. Until the iPhone, that meant something from RIM or Palm/Treo.

I would bet that the cell phone providers are primarily the ones at fault for
this, but I'm not sure. Verizon is the largest Cell provider in the US by a
large margin, and I understand they have all sorts of requirements if you want
your phone to work on their network.

[edit] I just looked at the wikipedia page for the nokia E series and N
series, and notice they are GSM only. I've only ever been on CDMA (and AMPS)
based networks, so that explains a lot right there.

Here's an example of what people in the US think of when they hear "Nokia"
it's the Nokia phone I've seen the most, with the possible exception of the
old monocrhome candybars:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_6255i>

~~~
notauser
Which is odd because BestBuy used to sell unlocked E71 handsets (one of the
best phones Nokia ever made) for 60-70% of the European retail price! They are
like BlackBerries but actually good.

I got mine for $250 SIM free, no contract. It worked fine on AT&T and T-Mobile
(US).

They also made an AT&T specific locked version called the E71X which had
horrific software deformities and was much more expensive.

~~~
baby
I own a E71 and I don't get the "one of the best phones Nokia ever made",
maybe I'm mis-using it ?

~~~
jzycrzy
I've used my e71 for over a year and am very satisfied with it. I bought it
unlocked in the US and have used it on international travel (switching sim
cards) without hassle. The single best factor is the ability to choose which
data connection I want an app to use (ex. 3g, wifi, MSM data, etc).

There are 2 "apps" that are the main benefit. (1) Fring allows me to have
video conference calls through skype (basically an early "Facetime", apple in
no way is the first one to bring this to the mobile phone). (2) Joikuspot,
which allows me to tether my 3G data to wifi. Any number of machines can use
the wifi-hotspot that this creates.

Oh, and i like being able to push buttons. I guess I'm old skool. ；）

------
tom_ilsinszki
A week ago, I watched the movie 'Who killed the electric car?'. At one point
the narrator said something like:

>> _US customers feared that by getting accustomed to small electric cars,
they wouldn't be able to have large SUVs, and would eventually be forced to
live like Europeans!_

At that point I laughed out loud and rewinded the video just to hear it one
more time. Maybe for people in the US, Europe reminds them of the concept of
compromising; which is not great, as far as marketing goes.

I agree, that iPhones and Androids are superior now, but how come Nokia wasn't
really successful in the US, before the iPhone? I think they had (and still
have) great non-smart phones.

------
garyrichardson
I've owned several Nokia phones and used to love them before mobile apps. They
were super hardy and functional phones. Plus, I could use the same chargers
for about a decade! Imagine that, a cell phone manufacturer that didn't invent
a new charger for every phone!

Before the iPhone, there wasn't a huge market for apps. They were hard to
write for all the different platforms. The UI experience was awful. It was so
bad I really only used my phone as a phone and not the super device that
iPhones/Androids are.

Since the iPhone gave us a decent interface and an app store, apps are what
drive the sale of smart phones. For the last Nokia I owned, it was super
sketchy install apps compared to the managed app store method. As a consumer,
I trust the app store not to screw up my phone. Installing JAR files from
unknown sources always made me a bit worried.

Also, since iPhone/Android, Nokia was no longer classified as a smart phone
producer. I've heard several people refer to Nokia phones as 'Feature Phones'.
IE, they have some gimicky feature (like a flashlight in the top or they play
Mp3's), instead of being a complete phone.

Granted, Nokia could have an app store now and real smart phones, but I don't
really care any more. At the end of the day, I want a phone that works
reliably. I want to find apps that work quickly. I also want the same phone my
parents are using so when I have to help them out, I don't have to relearn the
whole interface. iPhones do this for me, so that's why I no longer look at
Nokia phones.

------
jboydyhacker
Two Big Reasons

1\. Bad Software design. Nokia needs to pick up some solid software talent.
Nokia isn't used to having to compete on software yet while U.S. companies
have been doing that for years. That doesn't mean Nokia has to acquire a U.S.
co, just get aggressive about some great hacker talent. 2\. Carrier deals.
Even when Nokia does come out with a decent phone, it rarely gets any share
gain in the U.S. because of inadequate carrier deals. Usually the few people
that know about them acquire them from Europe, or by the time it does land in
the U.S. somebody has already launched something better.

------
alanthonyc
All the "features" you list are things a developer would like.

I haven't owned a Nokia in several years, but if they ever want my business
again, then they would need a list of features that a customer would find
appealing.

------
culturestate
I don't think Americans dislike nokia as much as we misunderstand nokia. Since
they aren't marketed very well here, our idea of what nokia is as a brand was
shaped by a cheap nokia candybar that was our first cell phone. That
impression of nokia as "the free phone company" has just never changed.

------
sliverstorm
I own myself an unlocked E72 that I paid full retail for.

The hardware is fantastic, better than any phone I've owned, and better than
any phone I've seen. It hasn't got a fancy touch-screen like the iPhone, but I
like it better. That's why I forked out money for it.

The software is flawed and occasionally a little buggy.

There are, as far as I'm concerned, no apps. I mean, there are apps, but not
enough, and not ones I care about. An when I do care about them, they are
usually unusably buggy.

I personally would like to see how Android does on a Nokia phone. Wish I could
stick it on my E72, actually. I have no prejudice against Symbian, but right
now it doesn't seem to be up to par.

Don't forget, Nokia's market share is largely tied to basic phones. The iPhone
and Android are flagship devices; they are what gets all the press coverage.
Nokia's current position reminds me of Microsoft's a little while back. Apple
got all the press and the hype and the hey-isn't-this-amazing, while Windows
was actually more widespread and probably making more money.

P.S. I have heard it's kind of an awful platform to develop for. It's
allegedly more difficult to program, the platform is extremely fragmented, and
a general lack of interest means it's not worthwhile.

> Is it seen as "unpatriotic" because is foreign?

^ America doesn't really do this anymore. Even if we wanted to, not enough
good stuff is made here anymore, which is a shame. Most of the stuff I've
owned that was very old or old-fashioned and was made in the USA was top-
quality.

------
coderdude
When I first noticed cell phones getting popular among the general populous
(maybe around 12-14 years ago) the Nokia 5110 (or a model that looks very much
like it) was the _shit_. Everyone had one. Since then they have steadily
fallen out of the race for best phone in the US.

------
zyb09
Well quiet simple, it has something to do with how the cellphone market in the
US is much younger then Europe's. Back in the mid-to-late 90's Nokia made the
best cellphones out there. They were clearly superior and pretty much
everybody was buying Nokia phones. At least pretty much everybody in Europe
was, because at that time having a cellphone in the US was still considered
somewhat unusual. Thous Europe got into into the habit of using and trusting
Nokia phones, while the US did not. When Apple, Google and RIM joined the
market, Nokia phone were really nothing extraordinary anymore and without a
large user-base trusting your brand, there's just no reason to buy one. Edit:
RIM has the opposite problem, btw.

------
john_conroy
1) I consider Apple and Android to be the future of phones. Nokia, Microsoft,
RIM and all other phone OS's are treated more or less the same, relative to
Apple and Android. The fact that it's pleasant to write apps for Nokia doesn't
matter when you can write better apps for Apple or Android.

2) As you pointed out Hacker news is US centric. Historically, Nokia has had a
smaller presence in the US. There are many factors which contributed to this,
off the top of my head - * Motorola was based in the US, and took market share
from Nokia. * Nokia was slow to make flip phones, and the US went through a
flip phone craze. * Nokia is a strong brand, and US carriers favored no name
phones that they could brand themselves, companies like HTC or LG were
amenable to this. Also, European carriers were slower to do this. * Apple went
for the (relative) mass market, they forced AT&T into offering the iPhone for
a cheap initial price, and a cheap data plan (again, relatively, starting with
the 3G). Contrast this with Nokia's somewhat lackadaisical approach to
launching a new high end phone - announce a couple of new phones, release them
months later, sometimes not on any carrier, often with different os's. * Nokia
took a break from making progress, roughly around 2003. They started making
very different phones, as if attempting to start or catch fads. They started
treating phones as fashion accessories. The 2 year gap between their
"professional" phones (the 6310 and the 6230) was horrendous.

Personally, I think Nokia made the best phones, of the last generation.

------
chrismealy
I'm an American and I love everything from Finland (Marcus Grönholm,
Marimekko, Moomin, you name it). I loved my Nokia 8290 but that was ten years
ago. It's no iPhone.

------
omnipath
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that to get most of Nokia's
smartphones, you have to pay full price? It seems like most people here in the
US don't want to do that. They would rather get 60%-80% off at the beginning
and stay with the seemingly standard 2-year contract.

That, and it seems like most of Nokia's smartphones only works on T-Mobile's
network. While T-Mobile has nice customer service, it isn't the most reliable
network in US.

------
kennu
Symbian is a horrible platform to develop applications on. I developed some
C++ apps maybe 5 years ago, before iPhone and Android existed. The API design
just sucked, and especially the dev tools. Development was slow and painful.
And everything kept changing all the time, different and incompatible for each
phone model. I don't think they have learned much, considering the current
Maemo/MeeGo/Qt/GTK/Whatever mess. I don't want to learn it because next year
they come up with something different again.

Developing apps on Xcode and iPhone SDK is a totally different world. You have
a clear MVC model, including even the nice graphical SQLite / Core Data
designer stuff, and the APIs are quite logical and simple to understand. (Well
actually, Core Data is the fugliest API, but I can live with it.) Apple has
really concentrated on making app development easy and enjoyable. The
licensing/approval bs is uncool of course.

------
rradu
I used to be a big Nokia fan. Back when phones were simple. Just calls, text,
a game of Snake, and maybe a camera. But then features started being added.

Some phones handled it gracefully. Nokia did not. I find them difficult to
use, and in a place where iPhones, Androids, and BBerrys have taken over,
today's Nokias don't stand a chance.

------
TomOfTTB
HN and the Tech Blogosphere tend to be populated by a certain community and
that community is influenced by their common opinions and tastes. Right now
the common belief amongst that community is we’re moving into a period where
software matters more than hardware and platforms are more important than
phone companies.

Call it the “App Store Mentality”

Sure you can build apps for Symbian just as you can build apps for the now
redubbed Classic Windows Smartphone. But the lack of an app store represents a
barrier that seems to prevent normal people from installing apps. This in turn
makes Symbian look like an OS that’s built around the old model of apps just
being a cool thing that power users can do.

So I don’t think it’s Nokia as much as it’s their dedication to a platform
that seems to be trying to maintain the old status quo where Manufacturer and
Carrier are more powerful than platform.

------
csmeder
I'm from the US. In my mind Nokia has always meant:

Expensive and just not worth the price.

I think most americans were used to paying $0-$50 for their phone. Of if they
were going to pay more they bought a black berry.

Things changed when the iPhone came out (and then the android). Basically,
iPhone did well because it was expensive, but worth it.

------
Tichy
They are lagging behind at the moment, but I wouldn't say they are out of the
equation yet. They just have to come up with one decent device (hardware),
then the things you mention are in their favor.

Also, I don't think there will be only iOS and Android in the future. iOS
limits you to Objective-C, Android to Java (JVM languages like Clojure seem to
run not well on Android). So Nokia might be the only one allowing real freedom
to pick the development tools in the end. Since it has native apps, all sorts
of languages should be possible.

Yes, as somebody else mentioned, these are things that appeal to developers.
But developers mean more apps, and developers/techies influence the buying
decisions of non-techies.

Also I think their name has not faded completely yet. If they build one good
modern phone, they can regain user's trust.

------
jolan
1) They don't do any sort of PR in the US.

2) Open source doesn't matter to the vast majority of consumers.

~~~
davidw
Nokia isn't really a big open source company. They're kind of ambivalent about
it, actually. The real open source play, is of course, Android.

~~~
pavlov
Sorry, but that's just nonsense. In the last three years, Nokia has:

* Acquired Trolltech, makers of the Qt toolkit (basis of KDE), changed Qt's licensing to the more flexible LGPL, and opened up the Qt development model to open source contributions.

* Acquired Symbian, the world's most widely distributed smartphone OS, then open-sourced the whole thing and turned it over to a non-profit foundation.

* Released several versions of their Maemo mobile Linux distribution on devices like N810 and N900.

* Fused Maemo with Intel's Moblin effort to create MeeGo, a unified mobile Linux for netbooks, smartphones and other mobile applications.

Where's the ambivalence?

~~~
ig1
My understanding at the time they open sourced it Symbian was a nightmare, the
technical leadership was completely falling to pieces and a huge number of
their developers were quitting. And when you're doing things like rolling your
own STL implementation you can't just pick up random C++ devs to plug the
gaps. Symbian was (still is?) dead in the water, open sourcing it was a last
stab at survival.

------
Steltek
I've bought an N95, N770, and an N800. I love all of them.

I really wanted to buy an N900 but it didn't support AT&T 3G, only T-Mo. My
circumstances are such that I want to be on AT&T but I'm not willing to
compromise on raw speed. As it became clear that Nokia was not going to
release an AT&T version, i gave up.

I'm really hoping that the N910 (or whatever) supports AT&T 3G and has HDMI-
out. I'd snap it up in a heartbeat.

------
expeditious
What OS do Nokia phones run (Symbian, Maemo, or something else?)? What
language and toolkit do I use? Is it locked-down, or can I load apps on to my
phone (or my friend's phone) that I write?

I basically have a good idea what the answers are to those questions for
iPhone and Android. No idea for Nokia.

~~~
qw
You can create applications for free (you can even use Python), and they can
of course be installed for free by anyone.

------
mikeleeorg
Just to put forth another opinion, it's possible that you're just witnessing
the bias of the US media.

Within the Silicon Valley area, iPhone & Android are all the rage. Within
other parts of this country, I don't find a similar sentiment. Anecdotally, I
know quite a few non-techies who own Nokias.

------
noelchurchill
Nokia used to do well here in the US. My first cell phone was a Nokia in the
90s. Everyone I knew with a cell phone had a Nokia at the time. It really
seems like they fell behind with marketing and didn't evolve with the market.

------
stonemetal
It isn't ignored, it is in hiding. I have honestly never seen a nokia smart
phone not even in an advertisement. I have had nokia cell phones before they
worked well but they lacked personality.

------
koleson
I loved my Nokia 3390 for the exact reasons mentioned by earlier posters: It
was responsive, and for the day, refined. Since then, it has been downhill.

------
Sephr
Nokia does not support Flash, it supports Flash Lite. Android on the other
hand fully supports Flash.

~~~
jrockway
By "fully", you mean one phone has a beta-quality download of Flash? Nokia has
been unpopular in the US for longer than Flash on phones has been something
anyone's even been thinking about, so I doubt this is the reason.

------
glabifrons
I won't comment on Symbian, I don't know enough about it and it's been covered
by others.

The Maemo project was going in a nice direction for a while, but Nokia missed
the mark when it released the N900. I was one of those chomping at the bit
waiting for it to finally be released... then it was, with a screen that is
too small for the phenomenal resolution, and with a UI that is geared toward
(finger input) touchscreen and a touchscreen geared toward the precision of
pen input.

I'm one of the oddballs that loves the precision of pen input. People I meet
are still amazed when they see my aged N800! They are disappointed when I tell
them it's not a phone, and even more disappointed when I tell them it hasn't
been made in years. Nokia was relying on word-of-mouth advertising for their
Internet Tablet platform, but then they changed the platform to something it's
not. When I tell these people there's a newer, much more powerful version that
adds a phone - called the N900, they get excited! When I tell them that it has
the same resolution, but compressed into a smaller 3.5" screen, they are
disappointed. When I tell them that it is not subsidized by any carrier, and
that you have to pay full price (or if discounted, is still $550), it doesn't
matter that it's "unlocked" (never locked in the 1st place), as: 1, the price
is too high and 2, GSM limits you to only 2 carriers in the US.

I hope the new direction (MeeGo) helps, but I'm not holding my breath.

Nokia had a "design by community" website not long ago (still up, but now
closed for selection), but they guided the input by not allowing you to submit
combinations Nokia didn't like! Read the comments on the project's web page
and it becomes obvious that Nokia doesn't want to know what people want, they
want to tell people what they want. The really stupid part? They didn't even
allow people to select combinations that matched up with some of Nokia's most
popular products! <http://conversations.nokia.com/design-by-community/>

Nokia needs to take the MeeGo project in two directions: They need a larger
screen with the resistive input (and a keyboard that can actually be used, a
5-row like the SideKick) for one, keeping the "computer first, phone second"
mentality. The other should be a capacitive input phone with application
functionality. Both could share the same repositories (app stores, if you
will), with guidance within the selection based on whether the application
being viewed is appropriate for the model the user is using at the time.

If they do this simple thing, I'll be buying the computer-first/phone-second
product, as that is what I need. I'm tired of carrying the N800 _and_ a phone.
If not, I'll have to settle for a nice Android, as they meet most of my needs.
Sadly, the one need Android doesn't meet is the ability to run actual Linux
software. Ironic, ain't it?

Oh, and my wife and I started with Maemo on the Nokia 770... and as much as
she loves hers, her needs are slightly different than mine. She's considering
the iPhone, but I'm fairly certain she would go for the 2nd option in the
above paragraph were it made.

------
sram
One Word: Symbian.

Make that two: Ewww

~~~
rokhayakebe
I did not downvote you, but if you asked the next 100 people ,whom you do not
know and own a cellphone, "What is Symbian" noone will answer.

~~~
marssaxman
one or two kinky sorts will answer "isn't that kind of a fancy vibrator?"

------
borisk
Americans hardly buy any products designed outside US. I've wondered for some
time why is that and my best guest is non-US marketing doesn't work on
Yankees.

~~~
byoung2
HTC has done pretty well in the American market, but they also use American
OSes (Android, WinMo) on their smartphones.

