
Solar-Powered Trash Cans Saved Philadelphia Almost a Million Bucks Last Year - weston
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/solar-powered-trash-cans-saved-philadelphia-almost-a-million-bucks
======
Irregardless
> Before BigBelly, trash collectors had to clear out each can three times a
> day. Now they do so three times a week.

Living in center city Philadelphia, I can confidently say there are a couple
unintended reasons these things may require less emptying: First, they're
often so dirty that no one would want to grab the handle and open the door to
throw trash in (I avoid them at all costs myself). Who wants to touch a
trashcan even when it's clean? Second, if you're willing to grab the trash-
encrusted handle and open the door, they're frequently jammed (or locked?)
shut. On the few occasions where I was forced to use them because there were
no other trashcans in sight, they were difficult or impossible to open.

So what do people do? They throw their trash on the ground, or they find a
nearby trashcan that doesn't require contact to use. It's not unusual to see
bags of trash sitting by these things with random garbage scattered around or
on top of them.

~~~
anigbrowl
This has certainly removed any lingering desire I might have had to visit
Philadelphia.

~~~
graeme
Any philadelphians or visitors to philadelphia want to chime in? I want to
visit it due to history and architecture.

Is the city center doing well, or decaying? I know some cities have vibrant
cores but decaying inner peripheries. (i.e. between downtown and newer
suburbs)

~~~
eksith
What killed my inclination to visit Philly was the Bill Burr rant (Google Bill
Burr philadelphia incident). It may not be the same now, and that was a few
years back, but just the thought that such a big crowd can be such jerks --
and I know the relative sample size is small and skewed (drunk) -- just
destroyed my urge.

The big reason I wanted to visit was the history, and also (this might seem
silly) because Bill Cosby is from there.

~~~
thejsjunky
For the record that didn't happen in Philadelphia it happened in Camden NJ
which is across the river. Clearly a lot of people in attendance were from
Philly but they were also from NJ and other surrounding areas. Also it
happened at an Opie and Anthony event, so you can imagine what sort of crowd
was there.

It's also notable that they stopped doing those events at all because booing
of new comedians was a general problem everywhere.

Philly does have a lot of problems, but it annoys me that we have a reputation
as particularly bad crowds at sporting events etc based on a few notable
incidents. If you look at basically any other city where large crowds of drunk
obnoxious people congregate they have similar incidents.

~~~
jlgreco
If ever there was a city that deserved the _Escape From New York_ "wall it off
and write it off" treatment, it is Camden. Thankfully the Delaware River
really does an effective job at keeping that rot at bay.

Philly _really_ isn't that bad... though I suspect many HNers who are used to
the shinier west coast cities would experience a bit of culture shock.

------
mcooley
Perhaps they've gotten their cost issues under control now, but this 2010
report from the Philly comptroller points out a whole bunch of problems:
[http://www.philadelphiacontroller.org/publications/other%20r...](http://www.philadelphiacontroller.org/publications/other%20reports/BigBellyReport_7-12-10.pdf)

The report shows all sorts of maintenance issues that weren't accounted for.
It takes longer to empty the bags on these units, for example.

I helped write a proposal to buy some of these units (albeit for a university
campus, not streetside in cities), and we didn't find any significant cost
savings. The appeal is the PR/image boost of having solar panels on every
trash can. It looks like you're doing something sustainable, even if the
numbers don't add up.

~~~
Spooky23
It isn't even that noble. The reasons that cities bought them is that the
Federal stimulus paid for them.

The machines jam in the winter, the batteries have a shelf life, and they
become filty and disgusting in the summer heat. The company is a good at
lobbying though.

~~~
rabbler
No-bid contract - I remember when this was a big deal on the news for a while.
Reminds me of the alcohol vending machine debacle (thankfully it seem that we
are closer to privatizing our liquor stores in recent weeks).

These things were so bad Wegman's thought that they were hurting their
business.
[http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-13/news/29653045_1_wine-k...](http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-13/news/29653045_1_wine-
kiosks-wine-sales-vending-machines)

------
VLM
Has anyone run the numbers on the $900K?

I'm thinking, a million people actually live in the "served area" and maybe
one public trash can per thousand people, so figure a thousand cans.

900K divided by 365 is about three K per day.

Combine a thousand cans and emptied three times per day and 3K per day budget
and you end up with emptying a can costs a buck.

Lets say each garbage man works 8 hours and never slacks off and only takes 5
minutes average to drive from can to can and empty. Anyway I'm thinking a
thousand cans times three times a day means 3000 drivebys times 5 minutes each
means 15000 minutes expended per day with the old system driving to visit each
can. Now realize that you're not going to save any drive time using the solar
cans. But for the sake of amusement we'll try it. Now 15 kilominutes given an
8 hour working day results in thirty or so trash trucks and garbage men under
the old (and new...) system.

Not sure if that's reasonable or not. A couple workmans comp cases and the
next million empties are going to cost an extra buck, sure. On the other hand,
its hard to imagine burning a dollar of diesel between each can. Philly just
isn't that big. Then again, if each garbage man was paid $30K per year aka
$15/hr and emptied about ten cans per hour, thats $1.50 per empty so factor in
lower pay.. But how do you actually save money if you have to drive the same
old route anyway?

Interestingly the economics of big city garbage pickup begin to make it look
reasonable to simply have the post office mail trash to the landfill. Its not
many orders of magnitude apart, and fundamentally junkmail delivery isn't all
that far away from garbage pickup. So it should cost about a "postage" amount.

~~~
jstalin
And there's no mention of the cost of the trash cans themselves. I've found
that governments are fond of flouting operating cost savings while incurring
massive capital costs.

For instance, my local transit agency purchased several hybrid-electric buses
that cost $200,000 more each than a regular bus, but only improve fuel usage
by 0.6 miles per gallon, saving at most a few thousand dollars per year. The
agency of course pulled a full court press on how much fuel was being saved
but wouldn't discuss the additional cost of the bus itself that made the
purchase a complete waste of money.

~~~
xxpor
Which agency?

The Feds are mostly responsible for the love of hybrids that US agencies have.
The extra fed funding that agencies get for hybrid buses make it worth it for
them, and the fuel savings is the cherry on top.

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geuis
I can definitely see the value in savings. You have to wonder about the costs
of maintenance and vandalism though.

In a city like SF, the people here quickly break these. The biggest problem
would be the homeless breaking into the machines for cans and such. Hooligans
would spray paint the tops because they think its cool to burn the world and
be "individual".

Our cans are industrial strength green concrete batteries with heavy wire tops
that allow for easy access.

~~~
jlgreco
In Philly I would consider these sorts of trashcans self-vandalizing.
Hooligans don't bother because they get trashed by normal use anyway; much
better to spend precious hooligan time vandalizing nicer things, such as
regular trashcans.

------
crapshoot101
Neat idea, neat solution, but the problem with articles like this is that it
leaves out the other half of the equation - what was the marginal capital
cost? Ie, if they cost $100M (for hyperbole's sake, which clearly they did
not), saving $900K a year is a pretty awful return on capital.

~~~
dangrossman
The city spent $2.2M for the compactors, including installation and a service
warranty. The estimated cost savings from the spend was $13M over 10 years; if
they saved $900,000 in the first year that looks like a reasonable estimate.

~~~
makomk
Assuming they last the predicted 10 years. Someone else linked
[http://www.philadelphiacontroller.org/publications/other%20r...](http://www.philadelphiacontroller.org/publications/other%20reports/BigBellyReport_7-12-10.pdf)
which says:

"Issue: Contract compactor specifications on expected life of product vague
and not supported by data.

"The contract included compactor specifications that included an expected life
of 10 years. When questioned about data or research to support this expected
life, the BigBelly Solar CEO stated the life expectancy was an estimate based
on the type of products and materials used in the compactors. He further
stated that the compactor had a life expectancy that was estimated similar to
an automobile; in that some repairs and parts may need to be made during the
normal life cycle, but full replacement may not need to be made for theyears.
When asked if there was any testing data to support the 10 year life
expectancy, he indicated that he was not aware of any specific data."

------
m0nty
> It's not a rich city, like New York or San Francisco, with cash to dump into
> sprawling bike lanes ... It's great that New York can install ... high-end
> bike-sharing programs. But ...

Bike lanes can bestow great economic benefits, from reduced healthcare costs
to reduced pollution, fewer fatalities on the roads, less congestion, less
stunting of children's intellectual development, etc. It's a shame people are
ignorant of these benefits and choose to disparage bike infrastructure as an
example of profligate and unnecessary spending (I recently read another
article doing the same for London's cycling infrastructure plans over the next
decade).

LSE Study:
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/aug/21/cycling-3...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/aug/21/cycling-3bn-
uk-economy-study)

The Lancet:
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/jan/26/pollution....](http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/jan/26/pollution.transportintheuk)

USC Study: <http://econweb.umd.edu/~ham/test%20scores%20submit.pdf> [PDF]

Economic Benefits:
[http://cyclingresourcecentre.org.au/page/cycling_benefits_ec...](http://cyclingresourcecentre.org.au/page/cycling_benefits_economic)

More bike lanes, fewer gimmicky solar-powered trash cans, please.

------
WalterBright
> Before BigBelly, trash collectors had to clear out each can three times a
> day. Now they do so three times a week.

Sounds like a simpler solution would be to - use larger trash cans!

------
stonemetal
_trash collectors had to clear out each can three times a day. Now they do so
three times a week._

Or you know they could have been smart about it, if the can wasn't full
several collections in a row cut the pick up rate for that particular can. It
starts being full/overloaded up the collection rate. Unless they are trying to
say that this trash compactor is so good that it delivers 60x(3 times a day *
7 days a week * 3 weeks) space efficiency which doesn't seem likely. Maybe the
new cans are larger?

~~~
Falling3
That would be 7x space efficiency. It was 3 times a week - not every 3 weeks.

~~~
stonemetal
Thanks miss read that bit. 7x sounds more doable by a compactor.

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sk5t
I remember when these went in in Philly a couple years ago... often on well-
shaded corners, not such a great match for solar powered compaction I'd think.

No doubt the new bins reduce the amount of waste collected, a) because nobody
wants to touch the grotty handles, and b) it isn't possible to fit anything
much bigger than a loaf of bread. However, could they possibly reduce the
amount of waste generated? Where is the rest of it going?

Center City also has a crew of workers to operate noisy, walk-behind, teal
street sweepers. I'm not sure if these actually pick up garbage, but at any
rate it would be a delight to see them pull a tour of duty on Snyder Ave.
instead of Market.

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canthonytucci
Saving a city the size of philly a million dollars doesn't sound like very
much to me. How was the million saved? Is that accounting for the time and
energy spent installing and maintaining these?

------
travisp
Interesting article, although it doesn't break down where the savings come
from. It appears that most of the savings come from the compaction and
communication about the cans being full. Given that solar is still often of
questionable cost-efficiency (especially, I would imagine, on sidewalks in
Philadelphia), I would think that not much of it comes from the solar aspect
(unless the cost of hooking up the cans to power or changing a battery is
high). The article doesn't really make it clear.

~~~
smspence
The article makes it pretty clear.

Third paragraph:

"...communications systems for real-time reporting on a bin’s capacity. By
allowing municipalities to service the BigBellys only when they are full, they
are saving hundreds of thousands of gallons of fuel annually across all
BigBelly units."

Fourth paragraph:

"...information gained from each compactor allows waste managers to optimize
collection schedules and routes. Before BigBelly, trash collectors had to
clear out each can three times a day. Now they do so three times a week."

~~~
greenyoda
The hourly cost of labor for a couple of unionized employees (the minimum
would probably be a driver and a loader) is probably greater than the hourly
cost of the fuel that's used, especially if they're running overtime.
Factoring in employee costs like health insurance, pensions and vacation time,
I'd guess at least $100 per hour for a two-man crew. You can get many gallons
of diesel for that amount, especially if you purchase in bulk for a fleet of
city vehicles.

Also, the number of garbage trucks that the city would need to own would go
down, as would the number of employees needed to maintain them.

I think the article emphasized the fuel savings because they didn't want to
explicitly call attention to the fairly obvious conclusion that this
efficiency improvement, if successful, would cause lots of city employees to
lose their jobs.

~~~
sfall
they said they didn't get rid of personnel just now use them for the recycling
program

------
nostromo
How do you reduce collections from 21 times a week to 3 times a week (more
than an 80% reduction) for a city the size of Philadelphia and _only_ save
900k?

~~~
dsl
They don't mention it, but I assume collections take a lot longer. My parents
used to have a trash compactor in the kitchen, and let me tell you taking out
a 90 lb. block of trash once every three weeks was way worse than tossing a 10
lb. bag every other day.

~~~
NegativeK
Sweet stink! How do trash compactors deal with rotting food accumulating for
much longer times?

~~~
jackmoore
I have no personal experience with trash compactors, but it seems like
compacted trash would have poor oxygen exchange that would inhibit
decomposition.

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colinsidoti
In Boston they started putting advertisements on the sides of the
machines...any other cities seen this? I wonder how much additional revenue it
drives.

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jgmmo
I remember when the Phillies got into world series the police had to go all
over the city grabbing these things, so they could switch them out for the
oldschool wire-frame cans, so that night when the riots hit there wouldn't be
as much dmg.

Do they add in these kinds of unexpected costs in their calculation?

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csmatt
That's probably because it's Always Sunny in Philadelphia :P

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broabprobe
Loving all the vice links on HN these days.

