

Ask HN: Would you employ a developer who talks to himself during work? - mattjung

I know this question might sound bizarre. I have never met someone in my career talking to himself in front of his computer until recently and puzzled myself about the reasons and the impact on his work...
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lee
Is he doing some kind of rubber duck debugging?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging>

I don't talk to myself, but sometimes by simply talking aloud about my
problems to my peers I can flesh out a solution to a hard problem.

I have seen other programmers talk to themselves to find a solution when
they're stuck, and it seems to work quite well.

~~~
brandnewlow
What tends to happen with me is I'll hit a snag that I can't seem to figure
out or debug myself. So I fire up gmail and write a note to one of the
contractors who does odds and ends stuff for me.

I describe the problem in decent detail and ask when he/she is available to
fix it. Send.

Then a few minutes later, the solution appears in my head, I go solve the
problem myself, and send an apology note to my developer.

~~~
evilduck
I do this too, but I've found that I don't usually need to hit send, I just
save it as a draft then go take a walk. The answer usually comes to me when I
come back, but if it doesn't I'll send it.

The act of explaining it in enough detail so another person could understand
the problem usually increases my understanding of the problem.

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marcusbooster
At least I know he's focused on his work. As opposed to say writing an Ask HN
about it.

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mhd
Probably not, if he's doing that all the time, the office is shared, he does
it in different voices and/or uses the Black Speech of Mordor.

Other than that, why not? When I'm behind closed doors, I sometimes to this
myself, too. Giving thoughts proper form often helps to order them, so both
writing and monologue are perfectly fine. That's what some people get out of
pair programming.

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tzs
We had an employee once who essentially narrated himself. For instance, if he
was installing the latest build of our software to test the installer, he
might say something like this:

    
    
        I'm putting the floppy in the drive. I see it on the
        desktop. I'm double clicking it. I see the new
        installer. Now I'm opening RegEdit. I'm finding the
        keys for $OurProduct, and deleting them to test a fresh
        install. Now I'm double clicking the installer. I see
        a dialog box. I'm typing in my product key, and hitting
        the install button...
    

If you had to do anything with him, he'd include you in the narration:

    
    
        OK, now I'm watching Bob make a new release for me to test.
        His compile finished, and he's copying to a floppy. He's
        giving me the floppy. I'm going to go test it...
    

This got real annoying real fast.

~~~
runjake
Wow, that's hilarious. Any chance he was taking voice notes to a device?

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varjag
I would, since I do it myself. Infrequently actually, but a lot of it is
swearing.

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jarek
Do you accommodate other preferences of the developer? Do you let them adjust
their chair or rearrange their desk? Do you let them come in at flex hours, as
long as the work is done and they don't unduly inconvenience others (meetings,
etc)? Do you let them wear headphones at work? Do you let them choose their
preferred editor (again, as long as it doesn't inconvenience others) or
perhaps even OS?

If so, why would you not accommodate someone who works slightly differently in
this one way?

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SanjayUttam
It depends. If they are talking and it is barely audible, sure...I do this,
and with the exceptional expletive, it's more or less silent. Most of the
developers here, myself included, wear headphones for the day unless we're
talking to one another. I don't think anyone even notices I'm mouthing things
to myself or reading "out-loud" (e.g., moving my mouth).

Not totally related, but I'm also bobbing my head to music all day (usually
groovesalad on some.fm)

All that said...how would you know if you're going to hire someone who talks
to themselves anyway, or is this just hypothetical?

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madhouse
Yes, I would. Thinking out loud helps a lot in my experience - and that's what
most people perceive as "talking to himself".

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Manolis
Since the question refers to a developer (a special category of employees) the
answer is a strong "Yes".

~~~
ra
Absolutely. I'm a developer who has hired 15-20 other developers in my time.
"talks to himself" isn't a reason not to hire a nice, talented developer.

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jasonmcalacanis
if they file clean code, solve problems, are positive in their nature and make
the people around them great they can marry their their iPad.

some of the best people startup people, at least in my experience, are
"unique."

Embrace the odd, create the future.

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retroafroman
I wouldn't. At one job, the desks were arranged so that I sat at my computer
with my back to my coworker (who talked to himself/no-one-in-particular/me
throughout the day) and I could never tell when he was trying to talk to me or
just vocalizing something. Also, I found it annoying. A small annoyance, sure,
but if it bothers your other developer's, it's not a good idea.

~~~
icefox
Well if you were doing the hiring I am guessing you can also set the seating.

~~~
retroafroman
Good point, as long as it is possible to place the self-talker in a place
where others aren't bothered, whether that's alone, or with people who aren't
bothered, it wouldn't be too bad.

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sofuture
I wouldn't consider it a factor in an employment decision unless it was
exceptional in some way (i.e. it was non-stop, extremely loud, disruptive).

~~~
mattjung
In fact, I was wondering if someone who needs to talk out loud has a different
approach of solving problems or if he has even has some shortcomings given
that he is not able to keep things in his mind. When children learn reading at
school, the first step is to read loud, then to understand what they read out
loud. It takes considerably more efforts until a child is able to understand a
text she is reading silently.

~~~
DirtyAndy
That is certainly an interesting way to look at people talking to themselves,
definitely correct with children. Personally I talk to myself a lot when
working at home, and never when in an office (it is rude and distracting for
other people). I think I do much better work at home, especially when trying
to solve problems. For some reason saying something out loud can often make it
clearer, easy to see something stupid you've done etc.

In theory anything you can do in a meeting, talking with others, can be done
in email, but IMHO well run meetings are a very good way of bringing ideas
together, solving problems etc. Talking to yourself is like having a meeting
with yourself :-)

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smutticus
Talking to yourself is fine. It's when you start responding to yourself that
you should be worried.

~~~
abyssknight
This is funny, but I respond to my own questions all the time. Often out of
sync with the timeline of events, too. I'll remember an answer and answer my
question from 10 minutes ago all while discussing it with myself. ;)

~~~
asdfghjkjnmhb
Self correcting - first you talk to yourself, then you start answering
yourself, then you argue with yourself - then you sulk and stop talking to
you.

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basicxman
There's a difference between delusional psychosis, being socially awkward, and
talking to yourself to debug computer problems. However, some might believe it
to be a very thin line between psychosis and debugging computer problems
aloud.

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niels_olson
Depends. At the best, you're being paranoid. At the worst, he could be
developing schizophrenia. Is he in his late teens or early twenties, does he
sound agitated or paranoid? Is his thought process coherent? What is he
talking about? A young, paranoid male talking gibberish to himself without
regard for who's around would be concerning. If you want a great portrait of
schizophrenia, watch "The Soloist": <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0821642/>

But if he's not acting like that, then maybe he's just helping you expand your
definition of normal.

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robgough
If they were working from home, sure :P

I can't see it impacting on their work, but it might irritate others.

There is an obvious second question though, how would you know before you
employed them. The question then becomes, would you _fire_ an developer that
talks to themselves at work.

In which case, No - I probably wouldn't. At least not without trying to find
other ways of dealing with it, it is possible they don't even know they're
doing it - and after making them aware you might find that they stop.

------
agotterer
Sometimes people with dislexia or other reading problems will read aloud.
Sometimes, the only way they can process the content is by hearing it.

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jdietrich
Will he get a private office?

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klaut
I talk to myself during work most of the time (but usually it happens in the
privacy of my head only). Or better, I talk to the monitor in front of me as
if it would help debug something faster :) ... well sometimes it does,
actually. But when i become very frustrated with the piece of code i am
debugging, I usually say something out loud as well.... swearing mostly :D

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markbnine
Sounds like the newest in agile techniques - pair programming for one. Write a
book and start your consulting career now.

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chrischen
I talk to myself, even when not working. So yes. He's just special.

Sometimes if you're eager to say something to real people, you may talk to
yourself (ADHD people do it). If you're standing right there and he's talking
to himself, then he either doesn't know you're there, or it's just helping him
think.

~~~
j_baker
Erm... I have ADHD and I don't do it.

~~~
chrischen
Well there are different types of ADHD. It's related to the fact that ADHD
people have bad working memory. So practicing how they would say stuff is a
way to get it out before they forget it.

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wccrawford
No. I worked with a guy who did this. I didn't have to sit at the desk next to
him, but the guy who did... Well, he absolutely hated it.

It's also quite a bit different than 2 people talking, or even someone talking
on the phone.

I think a quiet workplace is very important for proper thinking.

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runjake
You know of good developers who don't?

I mean, as long as he isn't muttering about red staplers or burning the office
down, what's the issue?

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noodle
this would be an incidental, to me. perhaps it would be annoying, but i don't
feel like it would necessarily impact his actual work.

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julius_geezer
Sure.

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zackattack
Talking to yourself is a symptom of stress. Because your working memory is too
populated by stressors in order to keep the entire "conversation" inside your
head, you externalize it. Think of it as paging out. The only inconvenience is
that it can bother people. Well, maybe there are other inconveniences, too,
but I'm not aware of any studies that suggest externalized verbal problem
solving creates worse results than internalized problem solving, though I
suspect it actually might be the case.

~~~
jazzyb
> Talking to yourself is a symptom of stress.

Not always. I talk to myself all the time whether I'm happy, sad, stressed,
relaxed, whatever. I just seem to solve problems better when I explain them to
myself out loud -- see "rubber ducking":
<http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RubberDucking>

~~~
zackattack
I agree that rubber ducking is a great technique. I also think that you can
"have" both stress and the subjective affective state of happiness
simultaneously.

