
AutoDesk Releases An Electronics Simulator Called 123D Circuits - blackskad
http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/10/autodesk-releases-an-electronics-simulator-called-123d-circuits/http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/10/autodesk-releases-an-electronics-simulator-called-123d-circuits/
======
enobrev
Reminds me of an old idea I had a couple years back. I assume it's a silly
idea driven primarily by my own ignorance of these tools and EE in general,
but it seemed fun.

The idea was to start out with some software similar to this. Something
visually impressive to keep it interesting for beginners, but technically
sound to make it useful to those who know what they're doing. It would be open
source, internet connected, easily accessible and most importantly simple to
create and share ideas.

From there, let people make some interesting things for school, work, play,
whatever, ideally sharing said creations and try to raise a community around
the tools and creations.

The next stage would be to add a 3D rendering component which would allow
people to create "machines" that could be run by their virtual electronics.
Something like virtual fabrication. The ideal being to grow those interfaces
and try to lead the community towards building virtual robots (that are
technically feasible).

The eventual goal would be to build a virtual world on top of all of the above
tools. Something like MechWarrior, but with engineers and industrial designers
building virtual mechs from the smallest components to the large mechanical
fabrication and then getting into all out war against one-another, adding to
the mix less technical players to partake in the human elements of combat
(generals, soldiers, medics, scavengers for destroyed mechs, etc).

Probably ridiculous, and if all went well I assume it would take years of work
and planning, but it seemed like a fun idea to ponder.

~~~
bobowzki
[http://www.circuits.io/](http://www.circuits.io/)

~~~
adamgravitis
[http://upverter.com](http://upverter.com)

Not just for kids anymore.

------
mbell
I wonder if it models the terrible parasitics of a real breadboard.

I imagine it would be really annoying for beginners to build an IR receiver
(or whatever) with the software, have it working perfectly, then try to build
it on a real breadboard only to spend hours frustratingly trying to figure out
why the circuit is oscillating.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Is there any software out there that includes these real-world models into the
design side?

~~~
compumike
mbell is right -- rather than just adding parasitic capacitance and inductance
estimates to every node, it's more helpful for the engineer to be able to
evaluate and discover which nodes are particularly sensitive and which aren't.
Start with some back-of-the-envelope order-of-magnitude estimates (maybe guess
~1nH/mm inductance for a wire, ~1pF capacitance between adjacent pins), and an
experienced engineer will already be able to eyeball likely trouble spots in
your circuit. The novice can certainly use the same concepts with simulation
to do quite a bit of "debugging" in just a few minutes, for example dragging
around a 1pF cap between a bunch of pins, re-running the simulation each time,
and seeing where it has the most detrimental effect on an analog circuit.

~~~
mbell
Just to add, if you want to 'fail safe' a breadboard design, your better off
assuming ~25pF of stray capacitance per breadboard insertion point. You should
also make sure your circuit bandwidth is less than ~8-10Mhz, keeping in mind
that if you have an opamp with GBP of 20Mhz and you're using it with a gain of
2, you may have a problem. Stray inductance can also play a part, but it's far
less likely.

------
moron4hire
I think there is a lot of value to blowing up your Arduino for reals. When you
blow up a couple of Arduinos, you'll tend to force yourself to learn very
quickly why it is happening and how to avoid it.

What is so bad about "blowing up a capacitor" or "burning yourself with a
soldering iron"? Capacitors are a few cents, each. Buy them in bulk and never
worry about needing one again. Soldering iron burns are easy to avoid if you
have spent any time in a kitchen.

I feel like this is missing a big point. Arduino _is_ the safe, easy entry
point to learn electronics. The danger is miniscule, and whatever danger that
is there, is part of the learning process. You need this as much as you need a
rice-cooker simulator.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
There are so many people that underestimated the potential success for
Arduino, and the rPi. Also, experienced hardware folks tend to forget how
unforgiving hardware can be to non-hardware folks, and beginners; a good
example of which was posted here the other day.
[http://www.jwz.org/curtain/](http://www.jwz.org/curtain/)

~~~
computator
> _so many people that underestimated the potential success for Arduino, and
> the rPi_

I like the Arduino and Raspberry Pi very much, but they are not the pioneers
of this idea.

There have been a whole bunch of electronic prototyping systems aimed at
hobbyists in the decade before Arduino and Raspberry Pi hit it big.

Just to name a few: Parallax Basic Stamp, the Micromint PicStic and Domino,
X-10, MIT Media Lab's Programmable Bricks, Gumstix, Phidgets, Teensy USB
Development Board, littleBits, LEGO Mindstorms, Bug Labs.

I was cheering for several of the above, and they met with various degrees of
success. It seemed obvious to me that they should become enormously popular,
as big as the Arduino and the Raspberry Pi, but they didn't. There were
probably dozens more that folded up and disappeared.

What I'm trying to say is that it took a lot of iterations of design, business
model, functionality, and being at the right time before a couple companies
found just the right formula to make it really big.

------
gcb0
> it allows you to learn electronics using a virtual Arduino board and
> breadboard without blowing up capacitors or burning yourself with solder on
> your work table.

With autodesk prices, i can probably buy enough caps and pay someone to solder
for me.

~~~
nkurz
All of their current 123D software is free for all:
[http://www.123dapp.com/create](http://www.123dapp.com/create)

And I recently was impressed to learn that they offer free licenses for most
of their professional software (including Autocad) to school teachers,
university faculty, and degree seeking students.

Qualifications:
[http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=12311...](http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=20307823&linkID=9240617)

Software:
[http://students.autodesk.com/?nd=download_center](http://students.autodesk.com/?nd=download_center)

------
mrcharles
I'd kill for an app like this that would help teach you electronics at the
same time. I've wanted to start doing some robotics stuff, but haven't found
much in terms of useful learning resources outside of just buying a full
university textbook and hoping for the best.

~~~
Bjorkbat
Funny you should mention that, I've been slowly working on this idea for a
circuit-sim that basically teaches you electronics, to be eventually
complemented with video-lectures which I keep putting off due to school and a
hunger for other projects.

So yeah, the Autodesk news was kinda depressing, but really, that just means
I'm going to focus more on the teaching end and in adding my own personal
style to it through quirky graphical elements that harken back to the 8-bit
era of yore. Autodesk can't sell a product with soul.

You can check it out if you want. Just to warn you though, my html abilities
are a work-in-progress, so don't be surprised if you see some awful mistakes
in there, or if it renders kinda funny if you have a small screen.

www.bighugebreadboard.com

I actually created it to teach myself electronics, so the biggest hurdle has
been learning how various components work, and then adding them to the sim.
Also, prior to this, my javascript knowledge was basically acquired through
Codecademy.

I'm also putting some of the code on a Github repo, as in I plan to make it
open-source. Alas, before I did that I cleaned up some prior amateur's
mistakes without thinking of the bugs I would be opening up. I should have
them fixed by tomorrow morning.

[https://github.com/Bjorkbat/electricjs](https://github.com/Bjorkbat/electricjs)

~~~
mrcharles
That looks awesome, I am definitely going to check it out.

------
generj
I guess I'm not seeing the advantage over existing software.

Unless there are some tie-ins with their other 123D software to, say,
automatically create a hardware enclosure from a schematic.

~~~
kbruneel
We have that! Just push the "generate enclosure" button in the circuit details
page.

~~~
generj
Cool! I'll have to check this out then. I love 123D in general, it's like
Inventor, only free!

That has long been my Achille's heel - I can EAGLE a pcb pretty easily, but
woodworking / 3d interlocking Ponoko designs elude me.

------
Scene_Cast2
How do I add a voltage other than a 9V battery?

What are the current alternatives to this? I'm looking to build an LED driver
(possible IC candidates are Linear LT3477, TI TPS63020 and some other TI /
Linear chips). I'd kill for a software that would simulate any chips (or even
just a crude approximation of them).

~~~
nullified
LTspice [0] is an excellent (and might I add free) SPICE simulator. Linear
includes proper models of the majority of their chip lineup, including LED
drivers. Their power supply IC models are also excellent. You can simulate a
full LED driver circuit and a whole lot more with LTspice. TI also has a
similar SPICE simulator [1], but it's not nearly as good, and its simulations
are much slower and a bit more unreliable.

I design electronics for a living, and I use LTspice all the time for power
supply and analog circuit simulations.

[0]:
[http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/#LTspice](http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/#LTspice)

[1]: [http://www.ti.com/tool/tina-ti](http://www.ti.com/tool/tina-ti)

~~~
Scene_Cast2
Thanks, that helps a lot! Giving it a shot right now.

How long should it take to make a high-power (3A+ @ 3V, buck-boost IC) LED
driver, very approximately?

~~~
nullified
If by "make" you mean create the schematic in LTspice and simulate it, then I
would guess about an hour or two (mostly because this might be your first time
using LTspice). If Linear has a part that already meets those requirements, it
should be a very straight forward affair.

------
zachrose
Is this based on Fritzing (fritzing.org)?

~~~
ris
Nope, just a non-free clone with a marketing budget.

I must say I'm not sure how to feel watching the maker and hacker culture I
love so much having its open heart slowly ripped out.

~~~
voltagex_
You can look at it as a kind of validation of the community - there's
commercial interest in it.

Also, just because someone starts on this app, doesn't mean they won't move on
to something else later.

~~~
ris
Well, I agree if you s/validation/co-opting/

No, it doesn't necessarily mean they won't move on to something else later,
but they're now living in a universe where it will always be Autodesk's job to
make that harder or less obvious to them. By any means available.

~~~
voltagex_
I'm not sure keeping hobbyists locked to a particular platform is that useful
to Autodesk, especially considering the prices they charge for higher level
software.

If it wasn't Autodesk doing this, would you have the same reaction? What about
Makerbot's move away from open-source?

~~~
ris
I would have exactly the same reaction - I don't have any issues specific to
Autodesk, apart from those that I've expressed here related to their 123D
suite.

------
ddunkin
It doesn't seem as in-depth as something more pure electronics like this:
[http://www.falstad.com/circuit](http://www.falstad.com/circuit) (also as
iCircuit for iPhone)

------
mflindell
They really went out of their way to try and rip of Github, it seems like a
lot of sites now would rather copy it because developers are used to the
design.

------
rglover
For someone who's been looking for an easy point of entry into learning this
stuff (me), this looks awesome.

~~~
moron4hire
Arduino _is already_ the easy point of entry for learning this stuff. Stop
talking about it and just do it.

------
fnordfnordfnord
Okay now we need a code debugger with breakpoints. Then, real hardware in the
loop!

~~~
kbruneel
Working on it!

------
qq66
Is this similar to Upverter?

~~~
trekky1700
Sure seems like it.

