
Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016) - deepaksurti
https://www.vox.com/2015/7/21/8974435/switzerland-work-life-balance
======
jjcm
I've experienced a lot of these things since leaving the bay area and moving
to Australia. The thing that surprised me most was similar to point #3 - in
Australia the less fortunate are taken care of. One big mental drain I had in
America was when my friends were sick but could do nothing about it. I had a
roommate in Seattle who had severe dental problems and chronic tooth pain, but
could do nothing about it because he simply couldn't afford it. I had another
friend who had an oblique fracture in their arm, but _set it themselves and
never went to the doctor_. All because healthcare was not only expensive, but
_randomly expensive_. You never knew if you'd be leaving the hospital with a
$100 medical bill or a $10,000 medical bill. I had great healthcare for all of
my working career, but my friends often didn't, and it ate at me mentally. In
Australia that's never been a point of stress. If you have a cold, you go to
the doctor, and you always knew it'd be less than $200ish. There were no
orders of magnitude more expensive surprises.

The rest of the points resonated highly with me as well, as aside from the
maternity leave I've experienced them all. I have to move back to the Bay soon
and I'm not looking forward to it. Every time I visit there's more homeless
who've been pushed to the streets because the system in place simply doesn't
work - Nordic countries, Switzerland, and Australia are simply better in so
many aspects. There's a reason why the USA has fallen to #13 in HDI[1] and
continues to fall.

The people of the USA have too much pride to change - we've been on top for so
long that we often think we can't learn from other countries, and that we have
everything figured out. The intro speech Jeff Daniels did in Newsroom [2]
resonates here. It's time we looked at what policies actually work for the
best of the populous.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index)
[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyzDRc34l2g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyzDRc34l2g)

~~~
ryanackley
Same experience and background as you. I worked for Atlassian in Sydney from
2008-2013.

I found Australia to be a relative Utopia compared to the USA. After traveling
around to other countries and living in Australia, then coming home, I
realized that America is one of the most indoctrinated cultures I've
experienced. We're indoctrinated with the idea of our own superiority. We
can't see how much better other countries are doing modern life.

~~~
krooj
I currently live/work in the Bay Area, but am a Canadian ex-pat. Over the past
year, I've had a series of health-related issues which have me chomping at the
bit to either move back to Canada or another country which has a sane
healthcare system. The issue with the states isn't just that you might go
bankrupt over medical bills, I've found that there's also a huge disparity in
quality of care. Back in Canada, you'd get the right care for your issue, cost
be damned; however, in the states, the quality of care might also depend on
who you have access to, per your insurance, which is royally fucked up. Its
implicitly correlating the value of human life with earnings - better job?
Better insurance.

There's more to life than base pay, stocks, and toys you can buy, and the Bay
Area has proven to be one big trap and a lie, so over the next year or two,
I'll be planning my escape to another country, be it back home, Australia, or
somewhere in Europe.

~~~
hellisothers
Not saying your experience isn’t valid but I’ve had several Canadian friends
tell stories the other direction. They were amazed at the level of care they
got in the Bay Area as opposed to Canada saying that yes care is available to
everybody but you often have to wait a long time and it’s generally mediocre.
Grass is greener?

~~~
raverbashing
Unfortunately "high level of care" is a bit of an ambiguous term

It's easy to overdiagnose, push unnecessary procedures or exams or just
prescribe the barely more efficient medication but that costs 10x more

So, higher level of care is good, sometimes the "base level" can leave you
with issues, but most of the time, you just need that aspirine and off time

------
kyledrake
Sure, but it's also really expensive to live in Switzerland. Not factoring in
the cost of living over there is pretty disingenuous. And it's going to be a
serious project to get residency there if you're not a Swiss citizen.

Edit: This is not an opinion, cost of living in Switzerland is highest in the
world, twice as high as in the US. Even if you make twice as much money,
you're basically making the same amount. And if food cost that much where I
live, you're damn right I'm bringing a sandwich to the office.
[https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/rankings_by_country.js...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/rankings_by_country.jsp)

~~~
eps
US and Canadian citizens can get Permit C (unconditional residency permit)
after 5 years on Permit B (employment-bound permit). Citizenship is 5 more
years after that. For EU citizens I think it's even simpler. For all other
countries it's 10+10 years.

~~~
ScottFree
In theory. I looked into emigrating to Switzerland a few years ago and I was
told that getting a work permit was nearly impossible as a US citizen. Swiss
companies have to prove that they can't find an EU passport holder with the
expertise necessary for the job before they can hire an American or any other
non-EU passport holder.

Unless something has changed?

~~~
snovv_crash
What that really means is that they need to have a job ad open for 3 months
that they didn't hire someone else into before they can justify hiring a non-
EU citizen. It helps if you're doing something specialized or have some
intersection of skills for the justification, but it isn't insurmountable,
just hard enough so that they only get the people who really want it.

~~~
ScottFree
Do you know an American or Canadian who was hired this way? Or is this
speculation?

~~~
snovv_crash
Me, twice (I changed jobs). However what I do is fairly specialized, so I'm
not surprised they weren't able to find someone qualified in 3 months.

The other part of making it hard is so that the employer doesn't undertake the
effort unless they really need the person and can't do with a local. I know
the company made an exception for me, as they did for one other employee, but
for the most part their policy is not to hire non-Swiss/EU citizens due to the
administrative burden.

~~~
ScottFree
Thanks for setting me straight! I'll give it another shot after I've chosen a
handle for my T-shape. I'm probably a bit too generalized to pull this off
right now.

------
falsedan
I recently moved from working for a US company to working for a CH one.
There’s some disadvantages, like people not giving their all at work slowing
things down. Compared to the previous role, it’s glacial. But no on call, 6
weeks vacation, and 8% pension contribution from the company that I don’t even
have to match is a good trade-off. Work is always going to be frustrating, but
I’m at a point in my life that I’d rather be frustrated at being forced to
work a maximum of 37.5 hours per week (tracked with timesheets) than
frustrated at unrealistic deadlines and the cult of appearing to get things
done.

~~~
H8crilA
What's the deal with people putting 120% efforts at work. It's clear that this
is not necessary (for example - Switzerland is just fine). Put a steady 60-80%
and bump it up to 100% when things get rough. I truly don't get it, sometimes
it feels like people simply want to spend lives at work rather than do
something else.

~~~
chrisseaton
Why do so many technology breakthroughs and successful companies get founded
in the US, compared to Europe, then? Why do so many Europeans go off to work
for US companies? There must be something beneficial about the US approach.

~~~
falsedan
I know this is a troll but: VCs have more funding available and are less risk-
adverse, employees are easier to underpay/overwork (rip unions), corporate
oversight is less burdensome.

This is the first job outside of the public sector that I’ve seen union
materials prominently displayed on internal notice boards.

~~~
chrisseaton
> I know this is a troll

I can't understand how my point could be considered trolling.

People seem to vote with their feet - they often choose US employers over
European ones.

The employers with the best conditions and pay in Europe are often US
employers! For example local offices of Google.

~~~
komali2
> The employers with the best conditions and pay in Europe are often US
> employers!

Could this be because theyre being subsidized by an exploited American
workforce? They're certainly profiting off weaker data regulation in the USA.

Anyway, it seems trolly because it'd be like arguing "well the Egyptians have
pyramids, and the non slave holding civilizations don't. Clearly they're doing
SOMETHING right."

Lots of people are leaving America, as well. Most can't afford to. The ones
that can afford international lifestyles aren't really burdened as much by the
negative aspects of America - they can get good insurance through a company
that can afford it, they can afford to Lyft everywhere to make up for the lack
of public transit, they can flex during salary negotiations for longer PTO.

How many impoverished in Europe are "voting with their feet" to come to the
first world country with the worst safety net out of all of them? Imagine the
innovations that could come from America if it actually invested in its
population.

The idea that Europe is not innovative is a bit of a myth anyway. This is a
fun read: [https://ec.europa.eu/growth/industry/innovation/facts-
figure...](https://ec.europa.eu/growth/industry/innovation/facts-
figures/scoreboards_en)

Btw, Sweden is measured as the "most innovative" country in the EU. So in a
system of first world countries with socialized education and healthcare, and
despite detractors on this forum of their allegedly "high cost of living"
they're still standing out amongst their peers.

------
saxonww
Some prior discussions:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9924166](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9924166)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13303544](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13303544)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13482285](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13482285)

This is actually a 2015 article, not 2016.

------
perfunctory
On top of that Switzerland has one-third of the US's GHG emissions per capita

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhous...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions_per_capita)

------
eternalny1
My father worked for decades for a Fortune 100 company in the US as a manager
and then worked in Switzerland for a few years.

In both scenarios, he had a comfortable life. The US company provided great
benefits, a pension, good work hours, and the job in Switzerland was even
better.

When I discuss what it's like to work in the technology sector, he doesn't
understand it. 1099 contract work with extremely expensive health coverage? I
should get a job that provides benefits! Daily long hours or death marches? I
need to find a company that provides a better "work/life" balance. Start-ups
that don't pay you now but "you have a chance at equity"? I should find one
that succeeds.

I'll keep trying.

~~~
bhaak
Are you keep trying because you hope for striking gold sometime or because you
can't find a job that resembles the jobs your father worked?

------
mguerville
I moved to the US (from France), 15 years ago, I think I made the right choice
for a 21 year old in 2004. But today I wouldn't recommend it, by virtually
every metric except economic growth, and by most intangibles, I feel that the
US had not improved enough and even in many cases declined. The state of
education, infrastructure, healthcare, inequality, population health, etc. are
worrying.

15 years ago it was a no brainer for most people to consider the US as a
career and life option, nowadays I think it's only the case for a certain type
of people.

------
baby
I personally find Switzerland boring and expensive. And I'm not sure your work
culture is going to be that different if you work at Google or another tech
company.

If I go back to Europe I would go to Portugal or Italy or Spain. These
countries are laid back, cheap, have good weather and good food. What else do
you want?

London and some cities in France like Bordeaux or Montpellier are insanely fun
too.

~~~
kartan
> These countries are laid back

Have you worked in Italy or Spain? I'm Spanish and laid back at work is not a
thing. The main reason I moved to Sweden is for is better work life balance.

Never go to live where you go for vacations, you will be very disappointed.

~~~
rendall
@kartan, are siestas still a thing in Spain? I always imagined workers in
Spain roll into work around 10, work till 2, then a 2-hour break, and then go
home around 6. I guess that's wrong?

~~~
diggan
Depends on the location and sector. Many restaurants still have siestas, maybe
not in the tourist-centers of the big cities, but on the country side for
sure.

Just like the US and other federated states, Spain has a lot of diversity
within it's borders, and a lot of social/economic questions needs the context
of "where" to be answered correctly.

------
red_admiral
There's a lot to like here, but

> The Swiss have a culture of professional part-time work ...

Coincidentally, this is the very day that one of the top stories on Swiss
broadsheet Tages Anzeiger is about how more people would like to work part-
time, but can't because of family commitments:
[https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sonntagszeitung/nur-8-prozent-d...](https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sonntagszeitung/nur-8-prozent-
der-eltern-wollen-vollzeit-arbeiten/story/11662472)

EDIT: to quote for example "Rund drei Viertel der Eltern mit Vollzeitjob geben
das höhere Einkommen als wichtigen Grund für ihr Arbeitspensum an."

Three quarters of parents with full-time jobs said the higher income was an
important reason for their full-time work.

Later on it discusses the cost of living and of childcare for a family.

EDIT2: I don't know if it's deliberate that Vox put a video of "Why we should
all move to SWEDEN" at the bottom, but I certainly chuckled.

~~~
erikpukinskis
That seems fine to me? The point of part time work is that you can choose
between money or time.

In the US there is no choice, generally speaking, as a coder. You can get
$120k for 40 hours, but there aren’t many $60k for 20 hours jobs available.
You have to freelance basically which is 3 years up front hustle.

------
Aaronmacaron
Previous HN discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816)

------
jjuhl
So the USA is fucked up when it comes to work/life balance and the US has no
social system worth anything. Who knew? Well, we _all_ knew. The US has been
the laughing stock of the world for decades and the only ones who haven't
noticed are the americans. No news here.

~~~
Reedx
> The US has been the laughing stock of the world for decades and the only
> ones who haven't noticed are the americans.

Right, it's not like the world has benefited at all from modern innovations
from the US. Like the Internet or the US' contributions to medical science and
technology or humanitarian efforts. And why they're not using Google, iPhones
or Android devices, watching American movies, etc.

Also please explain why so many have bothered to immigrate to the US in a bid
to improve their lives? You think they moved to the laughing stock when they
were already in a better situation? Your claim is insulting to American
immigrants.

It's also worth noting that over half of unicorn startups and Fortune 500 have
immigrant founders. The system is working better than most and has helped the
entire world in concrete ways. Does it have flaws? Absolutely. Huge flaws. But
let's aim to improve it, not throw the baby out with the bath water.

~~~
klipt
> Then please explain why so many have bothered to immigrate here and started
> hugely successful companies?

Because the US has cheap labor (read: low pay) compared to Switzerland?

~~~
Reedx
No, considering most are from places with far cheaper labor. Like India and
Asia.

Hiring in the US is expensive with high salaries (especially in tech) and
healthcare costs.

------
cpursley
> America is the most rich and powerful country in the world

Source needed.

~~~
fastball
Highest GDP + most powerful military doesn't cut it for you?

------
S_A_P
Transportation is the biggest difference between the us and a lot of the rest
of the world. Switzerland is the size of a small New England state. Mass
transit is a tough thing to scale.

That said I’ve noticed that a lot of the jobs in the us that would be
considered “glamorous” are by and large the lowest paying jobs with the
longest hours. Looking past the status of a company and career and looking
into the practical details of a job will make finding a fulfilling and well
paying job easier. All in all I think the article is not really apples to
apples but has some valid points.

~~~
izacus
I never understood that argument - Bay Area, the (arguably) richest place on
this planet is smaller then Switzerland and it's transit system is
catastrophic in comparison to SBB still.

I get that you can't cover Alabama with Swiss railways, but why the heck is
traveling from Zurich a Swiss mountain top in the middle of nowhere still
faster and more convenient than getting from SF to Mountain View?

~~~
opportune
The thing that pisses me off the most about the Bay Area transit system is how
slow it is compared to taking a car. I don’t understand how you can build a
rail system that ends up taking 2x longer to get from point A to point B. Even
aside from the spotty coverage it’s ridiculous how the train can take longer
from station to station than driving

~~~
Redoubts
I, too, can't believe how many times I've been Caltrain in an Uber Pool.

------
Reedx
Is Switzerland producing anything like SpaceX? Or Google? Or Apple, Amazon,
Netflix, Tesla, Stripe, Y Combinator?

More importantly, would we have produced these with their system? If so, then
great, but let's see the evidence.

No problem to have a work culture preference, and things could definitely be
improved(!!), but I think we're kidding ourselves that there are no tradeoffs
and everything would simply be better. And that we'd still have the same rate
of innovation.

Also a lot of people like that stores are open on Sundays.

~~~
JBorrow
The US has a population 40 times higher, that's not really a fair comparison.

Also: Nestle, Logitech? Just because they don't have shiny frontmen doesn't
mean they aren't worthy.

Google also has a large AI research department in Switzerland.

~~~
masonic
You might want to bear Nestle's corporate ethics in mind before touting them
as something to be proud of.

~~~
JBorrow
Ah yes, Google and SpaceX are well known for their impeccable corporate ethics

