
If Prisoners Ran Prisons - iamjeff
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/10/23/if-prisoners-ran-prisons#.xm20Sygvd
======
nknwn
In having served almost 10 years in prison for drugs. I can say that medium
and maximum security prisons are often a breeding ground for killers, and
dangerous people.

Young kids who have done something incredibly stupid usually end up in these
places. They are then immediately put in a situation to fuck or fight. This
behavior will often escalate to extreme violence or to be broken
psychologically, then owned by other inmates, bought and sold like property.
Can that kind of behavior be unlearned? I doubt it... I would argue that at
best, people can only learn to do something better, but always lurking in the
background.

This is only one of many of the bizarre insanities of prison life. I
personally don't disagree with the idea of punishment or prison. I would
however say that prisons are extremely dysfunctional.

~~~
NumberCruncher
>>Young kids who have done something incredibly stupid

>>They are then immediately put in a situation to fuck or fight.

IMHO this aspect of prison life is common knowledge. I wonder how incredibly
stupid one has to be to risk getting jailed. And looking at the numbers that
is not a marginal phenomenon.

~~~
rincebrain
A great many things can cause you to be party to something incredibly stupid -
something mildly stupid escalating, doing something without full understanding
of the consequences...

Even if you do grasp the risk at hand, other pressures can drive you to make
stupid choices.

Regardless of how you got there, though, it should not be a given that you're
going to come out of it worse than you went in.

~~~
NumberCruncher
>> something mildly stupid escalating, doing something without full
understanding of the consequences...

I still do not get how someone can not understand the consequences. Have they
never seen any movie? Really? Never talk to former inmates?

~~~
rincebrain
Knowing, abstractly, that doing X can result in Y punishment, and having
internalized it to the point that you think of this fact as a deterrent when
you're considering whether to do X, are not the same thing.

It's similar to (but not the same, I think, as) the difference between not
doing X because you've been told Y will happen, and not doing X because you
have memories of doing X and Y happening - the latter is a lot more deeply
ingrained.

Consider newly-minted adults in prosperous environments leaving their parents'
home for college for the first time - they have a theoretical knowledge of the
various stresses, risks, and concerns that will arise when they live on their
own, but until they've actually done it for a while and had various mishaps,
it won't be nearly as well-calibrated and digested into their thinking.

Or consider the uptick of music piracy when the internet was just becoming
ubiquitous - people knew, abstractly, that it was theft, and could carry
consequences, but that didn't enter into most of their considerations.

~~~
cryptarch
"Piracy is theft"

Digital piracy is not theft. It's like taking pictures in a museum when it's
not allowed. It's taking a picture of public buildings in the wrong country.
It's copyright infringement and an issue for the civil court, not the criminal
court.

Edit: your other points are good though :)

~~~
TeMPOraL
Regardless of whether piracy is or isn't a theft, it's actually a pretty good
example. The fact is, people can and _are_ fined and imprisoned for piracy.
And yet this fact is very remote to most people who pirate copyrighted
content.

~~~
imaginenore
I don't think many people are imprisoned for piracy, if any. I'm not talking
about filming in a movie theater, i'm talking downloading content for free.

------
CalChris
Cost of prison per prisoner per year:

$168,000

[http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/nyregion/citys-
annual-c...](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/nyregion/citys-annual-cost-
per-inmate-is-nearly-168000-study-says.html)

Average in the US:

$31,000

[https://www.vera.org/publications/the-price-of-prisons-
what-...](https://www.vera.org/publications/the-price-of-prisons-what-
incarceration-costs-taxpayers)

This isn't about justice. It's about prison guard jobs. It's about welfare.

~~~
StanislavPetrov
It's not just about welfare, its also about political power. For example, New
York houses tens of thousands of prisoners from New York City in various
upstate prison towns. The population of these prisoners is counted towards the
populations of these upstate towns, even though the prisoners cannot vote and
aren't from that area. For purposes of gerrymandering, funding, and anything
else related to population these prisoners are literally political ammunition.
This added clout puts representatives in the statehouse that exist only to
flood the prisons with more prisoners, completely beholden to prison guard
unions and other prison-related industries. They spend their time blocking any
sort of logical criminal reform, marijuana legalization, or anything else that
would slow the steady stream of prisoners. Its a corrupt system to the core.

[http://www.demos.org/publication/census-count-and-
prisoners-...](http://www.demos.org/publication/census-count-and-prisoners-
problem-solutions-and-what-census-can-do)

~~~
mchannon
Prison gerrymandering has been reformed in a few places, particularly New
York. Due to reforms passed in 2010, prisoners are now counted toward their
home districts.

California has likewise passed a law to discontinue the process there by 2020.

For much of the rest of the country, this is still a problem.

[http://www.prisonersofthecensus.org/newyork.html](http://www.prisonersofthecensus.org/newyork.html)

------
chappi42
Well, nothing to do with hackers, but if this

> Immediately they are yelled at by officers to strip naked, get ‘nuts to
> butts,’ and after being searched they are kept naked for several minutes
> until they are issued some boxers...

is true. Boah, how can everybody yell at the 'bad behaviour' of Trump and
Clinton and look away here?

~~~
smcl
I agree, it's pretty sick. I can see how this sort of behaviour can become
normalised, hard to remove and in some cases part of what the public expect
from the prison experience. Many people see prison as a place to be punished,
so it's easy for them to rationalise any sort of demeaning or dehumanising
treatment as part of the package - "well he/she should've thought about that
before they broke the law..." etc

In addition if you're a politician you're not going to win votes by
campaigning for better conditions in prisons, now matter how you spin it.

~~~
chappi42
Yes, but how is an inmate supposed to become 'better' in future if he (I
assume this only happens to men) is treated this respectless? Maybe you are
right with winning votes. But on the other hand I perceive the americans as
quite human. And if voters (and politicians) want to reduce the likelyhood of
inmates to slide back I think the conditions must be improved (if they really
should be that bad - I somehow cannot believe this report, completly
unthinkable in Europe (maybe we exagerate a bit towards the other end, don't
know)

~~~
rootusrootus
I hate to come off as overly negative, but while Americans individually can
seem like very nice people, that's not really our culture. Especially when it
comes to prison -- very few people give much thought to rehabilitation. Prison
is meant to be punishment, period. Anything that makes it more humane is
perceived as making it like a vacation or something. This is why we don't put
a stop to things like rape in prison, because we have completely dehumanized
prisoners. We treat our pets better.

~~~
oxide
Which is why the inhumane treatment of prisoners by people like former Sheriff
Joe Arpaio in AZ was not only tolerated but often condoned by the public. It's
why he was re-elected, for being perceived as tough on crime.

While they might not admit it, some people want to know that these criminals
are being mistreated. They like the idea, somewhere deep down, of a criminal
being forced to wear pink underwear and being fed spoiled food. It's twisted,
wrong even. But it's very much American. Like apple pie, or baseball.

~~~
mschuster91
> Which is why the inhumane treatment of prisoners by people like former
> Sheriff Joe Arpaio in AZ was not only tolerated but often condoned by the
> public.

Yeah but the tide has turned against him, he got booted out of office
([http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/sheriff-joe-arpaio-booted-
fr...](http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/sheriff-joe-arpaio-booted-from-office-
by-arizona-voters/)).

About the only positive result from this years' election.

~~~
cryptarch
Another good result from the election: many states are legalising marihuana in
some form, that's more money income from taxes and less spent on prisons.

It's still a long way from an evidence based drug (law enforcement) policy,
but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

~~~
code_duck
alas, in many states law enforcement and other groups are finding ways to
continue profiting from marijuana prohibition - legalization is regulation,
and they make punishments stricter for some 'crimes' while legalizing other
things. For instance, plant count. Some proposed laws do things like legalize
growing 6 plants... while 7 remains a felony, and all while not defining a
plant. Or in Colorado, while growing a few plants became legal, processing
them into hash with solvents became a 2nd degree felony.

In my own experience, police in Oregon and Colorado have started enforcing DUI
and public consumption for marijuana rather than possession - and those
charges carry higher punishmebts than minor possession used to carry. My
neighbor was raided by a swat team last year, fully armed, with emergency
support, for alllegedly being over plant count (a municipal court type
violation...).

So, things are moving sideways. The people addicted to making perverse profits
are predictably not keen to let go.

------
joshfraser
I spent my afternoon hanging out with an ex-con and entrepreneur I met through
Defy Ventures. They're a great organization that are giving second chances to
the incarcerated. If you're looking for a practical way to make a difference,
check out [https://defyventures.org](https://defyventures.org) and sign up as
a mentor. If you live in the bay area, they have a day trip to Avenal State
Prison coming up next month and are looking for volunteers to help as business
coaches.

Today I asked this entrepreneur for his perspective on what needs to change in
our judicial system. Not surprisingly, he gave me a long list of things that
are broken, including the corrupting influence of money which incentivizes
tough laws and full prisons. And the money which allows people with money to
walk away with a slap on the wrist for committing the exact same crime that
put him away for years.

When he was released, he was scared to leave prison. He shared how the free
world is terrifying to those who've been incarcerated for years. He'd been
locked up in high school and never had a chance to get a proper education. He
couldn't find anyone to hire him. He couldn't find anyone who'd even rent him
an apartment with a felony on his record. The only people who reached out to
him were his old gang members. Imagine spending the majority of your life
behind bars and then being thrown into a world with smart phones and the
internet -- neither of which existed when you were locked up.

Many of us in this community agree on how unfair the judicial system is in
America. Many of us believe in the concept of second chances and redemption.
And many of us (myself included) could do a better job at demonstrating that
belief with our actions.

------
Barraketh
I wonder why there are no private non-profit prisons.

There are many states that allow private prisons. There have been multiple
articles about how awful these prisons are. Why not try to open a non-profit
prison where gov't funds are supplemented with donations and focusing on
rehabilitation and humane living conditions. Then we both improve the lives of
some inmates, and can more effectively compare outcomes.

~~~
danieltillett
Because the amount available per prisioner per day is so low that a non-profit
prison could not do much better. It is not like the for-profit prisions are
running on profit margins of 50%.

~~~
steveax
~12.5% margin for CCA in 2015 [1]. I suspect that $227M could manage to pay
for bringing some fresh produce into the commissary.

Edit: not to mention the $890K they spent on lobbying.

[1]: [http://media.corporate-
ir.net/media_files/IROL/11/117983/201...](http://media.corporate-
ir.net/media_files/IROL/11/117983/2015%20Annual%20Letter%20to%20Shareholders%20-%20Final.pdf)

~~~
danieltillett
This is not a great margin given the capital requirements and political risks.
It would be hard for a new non-profit to get to their efficiency without scale
and even if you did it would not free up anywhere near the resources required
to make major changes in prisoner treatment.

The basic problem is still the tiny amount spent per prisoner on anything
other than keeping them locked up. We need to spend more if we want them to
not just be heading straight back to jail.

------
rand005
Related: The Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
[http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37904263](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37904263)

> If somebody has a drug problem we treat their addiction, if they are
> aggressive we provide anger management, if they have got money problems we
> give them debt counselling. So we try to remove whatever it was that caused
> the crime. The inmate himself or herself must be willing to change but our
> method has been very effective. Over the last 10 years, our work has
> improved more and more.

> Fewer than 10% then return to prison after their release. In England and
> Wales, and in the United States, roughly half of those serving short
> sentences reoffend within two years, and the figure is often higher for
> young adults.

------
Taek
There seems to be a pretty decisive anti-prison circle jerk in this thread.
It's a trend that is very common among progressives, common enough that I
think we could do something about it.

Does anyone want to say things in support of prison? If we revamp the prison
system, what things should we keep? What do prisons do right?

And, what are the next steps for a community willing to invest in changes to
our criminal management? How do we make a difference?

~~~
allendoerfer
Prisons should basically be a mix between a school and a mental institution.
If you are a loser and fucked up, your personal issues should be treated and
you should get into a position of not being a loser any more (e.g. get a
regular degree, apprenticeship, on which it does not say "done in prison").
You should have to stand up every day and have a normal workday to get used to
that.

You should have to stay there for as long as you are a threat to society or as
long as your situation has not changed and it is likely that you will commit
the crime again.

So everything that is already that should be kept, everything else we can get
rid of. I would personally say, start with socializing them again, then we
have an incentive to reduce prison populations by keeping people out, who do
not belong there in the first place. As always, when I make this comments I am
a hopeless optimist: Do not worry, it is already happening.

Also something to cheer you up, America: Where do you think ISIS comes from?
If you look for a group of losers, just turn to your local (on HN often
praised) European prison.

------
danieltillett
There should be two types of prisons; one for people that will be released one
day and one for people that will never be released. The never-to-be-released
ones can be the nastist hellholes (if the aim is punishment), but the to-be-
released ones need to concentrate on making sure that the prisioners are less
likely to offend again once released.

I have often thought the solution to the reoffending problem is to fill the
prisioners day with heaps of novel activities so that each day is spent
learning new things (doesn't really matter what as long as it is not
criminal). The aim would be that by the time the prisioner has finished their
sentence their old life and self will be forgotten. The human brain only has
so much capacity and if you fill it with enough novelty you will overwrite all
the old bad information and behaviours.

VR has the ability to make this cheap and effective.

~~~
mmagin
_The never-to-be-released ones can be the nastist hellholes (if the aim is
punishment)_

I object. They're still human, and as they have been deprived of their
freedom, we (society) have been entrusted with caring for them. Even the death
penalty (quite flawed as it is) may be better in some sense, morally, than
"the nastiest hellholes".

~~~
danieltillett
I was not arguing for making the never-to-be-released prisons hellhole, just
that they are the only prisons you can inflict punishment. Punishing those
people that you are going to release is stupid beyond imagination.

~~~
paulddraper
> stupid beyond imagination

I was punished. Spanking when I was younger, grounding when I was older.
Without these consequences, I would be a worse adult.

We may disagree about degree, but "stupid beyond imagination" is an
overstatement.

------
mmagin
One of the few charities (that I'm aware of) in this area:
[http://justdetention.org/](http://justdetention.org/)

------
jpatokal
What I find amazing here is the pathetic modesty of all the requests. It's all
about selling onion powder in the commissary or granting model prisoners the
right to wear non-white shirts, not (say) the abuse of plea bargaining or the
ludicrous length of mandatory sentences.

~~~
mehwoot
_the abuse of plea bargaining or the ludicrous length of mandatory sentences._

I don't think those really have to do directly with prisons though. It's a
related topic.

------
jstoiko
One thing that kills me about prisons is that they achieve exactly the
opposite of what they are supposed to be achieving. They add more
psychological trauma, they create more anger and they force people to focus on
what they've done in the past instead of what they could be doing different in
the future.

The problem is that there are always more important things to worry about in
our society than reforming prisons. Not much has changed since prisons have
been invented, really. Recidivism is unacceptably high. The solution is not
more discipline. It's more respect, more compassion, more dignity, more
learning, and more showing that life doing other things is as rewarding if not
more than doing the things that lead to prison.

------
perfmode
If you find this topic interesting, I would recommend that you check out the
documentary "13th" on Netflix:

[https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741](https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741)

------
joggery
Prisons are dysfunctional and cost too much. Why isn't GPS-tagging, curfew and
public record sufficient to protect society?

Reform could only be somewhere where >90% people are non-criminal e.g. army,
monastery

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect)

------
TH3R3LL1K
Prisoners should be measured. The same way that some companies have
performance measurements for its employees, prisons should have behavioural
measurement for the prisoners. If the behaviour improves based on a certain
grade, then the prisoners get rewarded, otherwise they get punished

~~~
Vintila
How about measuring the prison instead, reform more crooks, the guards get a
pay bonus. However, knowing how incentive schemes are normally gamed, they
will probably resort to lobotomising the inmates.

------
_audakel
so sad. im glad that in the age of the internet stories like this can come out
and reach many people. I just hope that the next generation of leaders who
grew up on the internet exposed to many differing ideas will have the
courage/determination to find real solustions fix problems like this.

------
transfire
In 100 years or so people will look back at our prisons like we now look back
on the Bastille.

~~~
verbify
I look at them now with horror - no need to wait 100 years.

------
jlebrech
let the prisoners run the entire prison but have the guards monitor them at
all times.

like this
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon)

------
DominikR
The notion that there should be no prisons at all is nuts in my view, there
must be a way for people to protect themselves from others who repeatedly act
violently.

But the fact that prisoners frequently have to face rape is sick and shows how
dysfunctional the current system is. I even read some time ago an article that
stated that the US is the only country in the world where more men than women
are raped. (due to the fact that so many men are raped in prison)

What I personally believe would be a good way to treat this issue is to have
prisoners work in the private sector while their payment will largely be used
to pay for prison and to repay their victims for the damage they have caused
them. The prisoner is set free once he has paid for all damages. (or as much
as is reasonably possible)

Prisons will have an incentive to make sure that their prisoners earn as much
as possible (trainings and education), victims will receive payments for
damages and the prisoners themselves will have an incentive to get out of
prison as soon as possible. Of course this can't be done with every type of
felony and there's the question if damages are always accurate.

Also with this approach some types of felonies cannot be punished. One example
would be drug abuse. You are only harming yourself and since no third party
can claim damages it also would not be punished. (this alone would hugely
reduce prison population)

You could even make the case that selling drugs would be legalised since
there's clearly a buyer willing to buy and consume it who's not hurting any
third parties directly by his choice.

I believe it is more reasonable to have prison sentences reflect the damage
caused instead of ideology and prison life be more about making it up to the
victims (as far as it is possible) instead of creating the most nasty, brutal
place imaginable and having people suffer there.

It's probably also a better lesson for an offender to have to repay someone
for destroying his car than subjecting him to repeated rapes which will likely
break him psychologically.

------
wccrawford
I'm all for prison reform, but other than the bits where officers do demeaning
things to the prisoners, this really just becomes a list of things that
prisoners feel would make their lives more comfortable.

Well yeah, no shit. Of course they want it better in there. If they got all
this, they'd eventually be complaining that they should have computers and
playstations.

Prison isn't supposed to be torture (physically or mentally) but it's also not
supposed to be better than poor people have it. If poor people can't be taken
care of to the point they have these things (and I think they should!) then I
don't think starting with the prisons is the right way to go.

~~~
williadc
You're correct that most of these are asking for prison to be a more tolerable
place to live. Making prison a rough experience should encourage inmates to
avoid crimes which will send them back. The article's author contends that the
current conditions in the prison where he serves his time re-enforce criminal
behavior and empowers "gang recruiters, extortion, and other threats" by
depriving prisoners. He has the advantage of seeing what happens each day, but
has a sample-size issue in that he's only experienced a small number of
prisons. I would be interested in seeing his proposals tested in a controlled
studies. None of them seems difficult or expensive to implement.

~~~
dom0
> Making prison a rough experience should encourage inmates to avoid crimes
> which will send them back.

RoW actually shows that this basic approach does not work _at all_.

