
Why you probably don't need an MBA - reqres
http://www.economist.com/whichmba/mba-diary-why-you-probably-dont-need-mba
======
hkmurakami
A few years ago, I dropped out of a decent but not top level MBA program after
a quarter.

Putting together my own + my classmates + my college friends at top 5
programs, my takeaway is that the 3 _main_ reasons to enroll in one are (1) to
switch industries (or roles within an industry), (2) to take time off without
leaving a hole in your resume (matters a lot in nontechnical fields), and (3)
gain a particular network that you lack (ex: Wharton for finance, Stanford for
SV, etc.). These reasons may sound trivial but for the right kind of person,
the program can be a decent~good trade for their time and money opportunity
cost.

The "move up the corporate chain" thing used to be more true (ex: you _need_
to have a MBA to move up past a certain rung in the org chart) but is
increasingly less so today. These days, if you're good, you're good. A
noteworthy might be the "in-between" phase after the 2 year consulting or
finance analyst program, but a large fraction of this cohort fits into (1)
above.

The "learning" is nonzero but seems underwhelming and not anywhere near worth
the funds you need to put up. Frankly if you know what you want to be doing in
the future, imo you'll learn more by actually spending those 2 years actually
working and doing those things (which was my main reason for dropping out). It
may make more sense if you're a pretty bright person who doesn't really know
what you want to do in the future but you do know that it isn't what you're
doing _now_ (ex: my journalist friends who saw the industry as a dead end).

edit: Also it's unwise to bucket all programs as "MBAs" since each one can be
surprisingly different in what they offer in terms of concrete benefits.

edit2: For young professionals without a strong signaling institution thus far
in their academic and professional careers, an MBA may be one of the more
feasible options to get a mulligan in this regard. Say what you will about
paying up for a signal, but it can pay off depending on the role and industry
you're going for.

~~~
basseq
Your three reasons are spot on and match my experience. A friend of mine (in
finance) did the opportunity cost calculations and figured it would cost $500k
to go to a top-tier program (between tuition, room, board, supplies, missed
salary, etc.). My main reason to go get a MBA would be to grow my network, but
there are cheaper, faster, and more effective ways to accomplish that.

Plus the average age of MBA grads seems to be getting lower. (True?) At this
point, I'm 30, two levels above where my company brings on MBAs, and have MBA
direct reports. So leaving to get a MBA seems like a step back.

~~~
mslate
> My main reason to go get a MBA would be to grow my network, but there are
> cheaper, faster, and more effective ways to accomplish that.

What ways are you referring to?

~~~
jasonshen
Host a really nice dinner party every week. Start with a group of legit people
you know. Do it at your home if it is big enough, or at a nice restaurant. Pay
for the whole thing. Ask each guest that the only thing they need to do to pay
you back is to introduce one new person to a future dinner party. If you've
done your job right, they'd be overjoyed to refer someone (free dinner +
awesome people = huge win)

Let's say you have 6 people at the dinner party. $60 per head = $360 per
night, which is $37,440 over the course of two years, at which point you've
made 520 really great connections.

------
ucaetano
MBA here, you probably don't need an MBA.

I went for it mostly to switch industries and geographies, as well as for the
"learning" part, which I just find fun.

It worked really well for me, but I had clear expected outcomes. The marginal
value of an MBA degree is diminishing as the knowledge is easily available
anywhere, but there are a few things which still count:

\- Network: unlike an usual MSc or PhD, an MBA class has 100's of people, and
you spend a lot of time with them, building a very solid network

\- Switching functions or industry: it gives you a very good starting point.
If you're an engineer, it will be hard to switch straight into marketing, PM,
finance, etc. Doing an MBA, plus a summer internship in your target function
will make a huge difference.

\- Switching geographies: the job marketplace for new MBA grads is global
(visa issues in some countries aside), and salaries are usually similar
globally, so it's a nice opportunity to chose where you to live moving forward

\- You're being sponsored: just do it, seriously, don't even think about it

On the learning side, even if you can find all the stuff online, it makes a
huge difference to discuss implications face to face with some brilliant
professors. Here's the top stuff I learned:

* How to constantly assess your own decision biases and compensate for it

* Lot's of game theory and strategy applied to real world

* Negotiations

* You're not gonna beat the market, so don't even bother

* How power is created and traded inside organizations

~~~
cushychicken
Any book or article recommendations on the subject of how power is created and
traded in organizations? I'm fascinated by the subject but don't know the
first thing about it. (Like many engineers.)

~~~
ucaetano
It was a tricky class, a lot of it wasn't about explicit rules or frameworks,
but reading chapters of biographies and other books, and identifying the
sources of power and how they were used.

We didn't have a specific book, and it was a very unique class, my favorite
after competitive strategy (essentially applied game theory).

Some of the readings were on Robert Moses, LB Johnson, the movie 12 Angry Men
(Henry Fonda version), etc.

Essentially you can take any good biography of a powerful person and try to
proactively identify the sources of power they had, how they harnessed and
yielded it, and what impact it had.

It requires some suspension of disbelief, since power is usually seen as
negative, so you need to be a bit cynical while doing it (just don't be
cynical in real life, nobody likes an asshole).

You can do the same in you job (that was actually the final paper): who holds
power (and which type of power) over you? Why? Where do they source their
power from? Skill? Reputation? Formal authority?

What power do you have? Over whom? Why? Where do you get it from?

This was one of those classes where it would be hard to replicate the same
learning by yourself. The other one was negotiations.

~~~
CPLX
"The Power Broker" biography of Robert Moses is a truly exceptional look at
the intersection of interpersonal and organizational power.

~~~
cushychicken
I've started on it but have yet to finish it. Excellent, but very dense and
cerebral.

I'll have to try another go at it.

------
mathattack
The article is a little bit misleading. It sounds like they went to a very 3rd
tier program. I've interviewed plenty of people from these types of programs.
Many of them list MBA on their LinkedIn tagline, which inadvertently
highlights "University of Phoenix" or some other online program on the bottom.
For most of these people, the MBA is worthless.

Net - I think MBAs from non-top schools are worthless for most of the reasons
the author suggested.

But... There is value in specific fields for top degrees. More than half the
people from top 6-8 programs who want to get into banking or elite consulting
programs can get there. If you really want to work for Bain/BCG/McK and you
recruit on campus from a top program, you have an ~50% shot depending on the
market. If you don't have that top MBA, it's much lower. (Less than 2%?)
Similar with front office jobs in investment banking.

What about technology, which is what most people here care about? I see a
disproportionate amount of non-engineering CEOs with Computer Science
undergrads followed by MBAs from a small subset of schools. (Harvard and
Stanford followed by a big drop, then Kellogg, Penn, Chicago Booth and Cal in
the next tier - perhaps I'm missing one or two) The #s are very
disproportionate to what these schools produce.

Is it causation or correlation? Much harder to say. These are hyper-talented
people. They have technical skills too. I suspect they get some benefit from
the sorting mechanism in place, the network, and the confidence that they
built. Good CS programs are much more academically rigorous than most MBA
programs, so I don't think it's genius granted from the mountaintop.

I've strongly advised people to avoid programs outside the top 20 for economic
reasons. If someone else is paying for it, and you're interested in learning
about business for it's own sake, sure. But the maximum NPVs accumulate only
to the grads from the top few schools. In this sense, MBAs are much more
similar to law degrees than technical degrees.

~~~
rpgmaker
So you're saying that in the US someone with an MBA from a school located in a
country other than the US/UK (where most "top schools" are) would get no
benefit from it, regardless of how prestigious said school is?

~~~
Johnie
Much of the value of the MBA is the network. I would even go as far as to say
most of the value of the MBA is the network.

If the network from your MBA program abroad isn't that strong in the industry
that you work in or in your geography, you'll get minimal value out of it. If
the network from your MBA program is not in senior (or more senior positions
than you are), you'll get minimal value. This is why there is a pareto
distribution between the top programs and the other tiers of programs.

There are plenty of foreign MBA programs that have robust networks in the US.
Take a look at the Global MBA list.
[http://rankings.ft.com/exportranking/global-mba-
ranking-2015...](http://rankings.ft.com/exportranking/global-mba-
ranking-2015/pdf)

Within the top 15 globally: Insead (worldwide), Iese (Spain), Ceibs (China),
HKUST (China), HEC (France).

Although not in the top 15, IIT has a robust network in the tech industry.

~~~
mathattack
IIM as well has a robust network.

My overall impression is you get much more benefit from people you know from
the experience rather than random strangers who you might call out of the
blue. (On-line programs struggle with this a lot)

I also wouldn't short-sell the opportunity to do a career reset. If you have a
CS degree and want to go into Finance or Marketing in a tech company, the MBA
can give you that reset. (Or banking or consulting)

------
tixocloud
MBA here as well. If you're thinking of an MBA, think really hard about why
and if it's necessary to achieve your goals.

For me, I knew what I wanted to get out of it so it turned out well. Knowledge
about business is everywhere and you're far better off trying to start a
business if you actually want to learn about business.

What I got out of it was:

\- Networks: Great friends from many different industries and skill sets

\- Communication: Being tech and introverted, I learned how to communicate my
ideas better. I've come to since realize that while your ideas might be the
best, if you can't communicate it well, it's not going to be adopted. Also,
different people require different communication styles.

\- Self-awareness and emotional intelligence thinking: Lots of group work -
teammates might be shitty and don't do anything. Figured out how to identify
who's going to do work and who's not and how we're still going to deliver
despite being handicapped.

\- Strategy, frameworks, theories: Just helps with the thinking process. Helps
me understand what executives are thinking about.

\- Confidence: Wasn't born with a lot with confidence but going through
presentations day in and day out helped me develop that.

I was able to switch from startups to large companies in different industries
to get a greater understanding of the differences between the two. From this
experience, it's no wonder why startups that try to sell to big companies
usually have a tougher time than trying to sell to smaller companies
(depending on industry of course).

~~~
j_s
Do you have any experience with anything similar to Toastmasters? If so, do
you think that Toastmasters is a good first step when considering the
potential of an MBA? It seems to line up with several of the benefits you
mention.

[http://www.toastmasters.org/](http://www.toastmasters.org/)

~~~
tixocloud
I do have experience with Toastmasters and it's a great step for sure. I would
definitely recommend it as a more affordable alternative.

------
anu7df
While I agree that this premise may be true for many, it really depends on the
individual. Also a distance MBA is not worth it, almost never. It looks like
the author went into a poor program, ill prepared and had to drop out.
Generally a top MBA will put you on a quick rising career path. Whether you
are happy in that path, well.. That's another matter. MBA doesn't guarantee
you will rise in that path either. You may, if you are good. The degree just
gives you a shot at it. A poor article by usual economist standards.

~~~
chkuendig
Yeah, pretty sure the whole thing looks different if you get your MBA at HBS,
INSEAD, IMD, LBS etc. (you don't have to fund 100% out of pocket, it actually
is for the elite, depending on your career goals you probably want to meet
those people, and while it wont make you genius, you probably get some
valuable experiences)

------
cm2187
The article should probably be renamed "Why enrolling for an MBA to please my
parents was not a good idea".

MBAs make sense in some cases. It's a good way to change career path. Bankers
and consultants use it as a break after two or three hellish years as a
junior. Knowing all these middle managers in other industries is actually very
useful, to keep an eye on what is going on or sell them stuff, and providing
opportunities for future career changes. For others it is a way to "upgrade" a
modest academic education.

But enrolling in one of these things without having any clue of what to expect
from it or just because of peer pressure is a waste of time and money. But the
fault lies with the applicant.

------
mcbrown
I will generalize his argument, since it's not really about MBA's:

"If you make major life decisions against your clear preference in a vague
effort to please your parents, you will probably regret it."

~~~
ldd
I think that you should add: "Listen to your parents when you have to make
minor life decisions".

Way too many people either try too hard to please their parents, or ignore
their advice entirely. With time, you learn to not swing too much either way.

------
smagch
I'd quote an interesting point of view on MBA from Joi Ito's TED talk.

 _Before the Internet, if you remember, when we tried to create services, what
you would do is you 'd create the hardware layer and the network layer and the
software and it would cost millions of dollars to do anything that was
substantial. So when it costs millions of dollars to do something substantial,
what you would do is you'd get an MBA who would write a plan and get the money
from V.C.s or big companies, and then you'd hire the designers and the
engineers, and they'd build the thing. This is the Before Internet, B.I.,
innovation model._

[https://www.ted.com/talks/joi_ito_want_to_innovate_become_a_...](https://www.ted.com/talks/joi_ito_want_to_innovate_become_a_now_ist/transcript?language=en)

------
evook
EMBA here. Learned nothing I didn't already knew when enrolling, except for
strengthening my opinion on ignoring certificates while hiring. In the end I
wasted a lot of time and money to prove that I am able to waste a lot of time
and money.

I did it while working full time, so I probably wouldn't do it again. For my
profession as an executive it would've been more valuable to get a Bachelor of
Laws instead.

~~~
ValentineC
> For my profession as an executive it would've been more valuable to get a
> Bachelor of Laws instead.

How would knowledge of law, as opposed to having all-rounded knowledge of
business administration and a network of people with similar backgrounds, help
as an executive?

------
arethuza
The people I've known who were successful who had MBAs seemed to use it as a
way of signalling that they were serious about doing the whole "management"
thing - which in a large organisations tends to mean that you stop doing
whatever it is the the organisation actually does and focus on "management"
stuff.

NB Note that I am most definitely _not_ criticizing the need for high level
managers - someone does have to do it, just that I _personally_ have no
interested in doing it as I'm too interested in actually _doing_ stuff rather
than managing other people doing stuff.

Edit: For the MBA track in a large organisation you probably are aiming at
being at least the manager of the manager of the manager of the people who
actually do stuff... ;-)

~~~
rconti
This is roughly the way I feel about it, too.

I think when I was younger, I was more naïve. MBAs were for useless management
drones, and you can easily get promoted to a management role without one.

Having gone through college, joined the industry, and then had friends who
went on to business school, I'm seeing the MBA clan as more of an entirely
different social strata. It's mostly signaling, but you move directly into
higher-powered "important" roles that aren't really promotions over individual
contributor work, but almost an entirely different industry.

~~~
geodel
I agree. I have a fresh MBA friend started working for a big tech company 2
years back where he is regularly in communication with VPs, SVPs and
Presidents. On the other hand with 10 years exp in tech, I only communicates
with project managers or their managers at best in similarly sized company.

------
rtfmp
I love this

" You cannot impress Asian parents. Unhappiness is their default. And
honestly, I believe they enjoy it."

~~~
rchaud
The whole writeup suggested the writer had an enormous chip on his shoulder
for some reason; turns out you had to read to the end to find out what it was.
Honestly, it sounds more like he didn't get into a top MBA program, and is
paying the price. MBA programs are like law schools; the cost-benefit hinges
enormously on how well the program is regarded.

------
moonshinefe
I think a lot of people are realizing that you don't need to get dozens of
thousands of dollars in debt to get a quality education. Dedication counts.
Sometimes you just need to know the right people or get your foot in the door
as a lower level employee who can learn it in the real world.

I know a surprisingly high amount of people who hold less than a 4 year
bachelor's in Comp Sci or related who now hold significant positions in major
companies.

------
rchaud
As opinion pieces go, I expect a lot better writing and research from someone
employed by the Economist, even if they are an intern.

This article could easily have been titled "Not all MBAs are created equal"
and needed no further explanation.

"Business schools constantly boast about the network students can tap into.
Don’t be fooled. Do you need to pay thousands to meet middle managers from
industries that you have no interest in?"

I don't know about UK MBAs, but a cursory glance at the employment reports of
any US MBA school will provide the names of companies that come on campus to
recruit candidates. This is the first thing any prospective MBA student should
be looking at when they're creating their shortlist of schools.

If you are looking to get into consulting, those schools should have McKinsey,
Deloitte, Accenture and the like on there. If you're interested in technology,
Amazon, Google, Facebook etc. should be coming on campus. For finance,
Goldman, JP Morgan, etc. An so on and so forth.

If those names, or other high-profile names aren't on the list, you may not
get your money's worth. An MBA has never been about the quality of the
education you get, but rather about name recognition and how much pull the
school has with recruiters. This is common knowledge for anybody doing even an
hour's research into whether an MBA is right for them.

That's the biggest flaw of this write-up. The writer appears to have done
little to no research on his program before enrolling, and considers his
support officer saying "you should have had all the money sorted" to be some
sort of cold-world realization, which is absurdly irresponsible when you
consider how much an MBA costs.

I don't like using the word "entitled" to describe people, but I have to
wonder about the conclusions he reaches about his teammates who didn't speak
English well. They ended up in management consultancies, while he, the heroic
working man struggling to teach them English, is interning at the Economist, a
position that usually goes to undergraduates. Perhaps he should stop to
consider that maybe they got their jobs because they attempted to network
more, or simply showed up to their interviews without a chip on their shoulder
as this writer seems to have.

~~~
olympus
This advice should be given to everyone considering a MBA. I think the actual
biggest flaw from this write-up is that it was written by a dropout (the
caption on his picture states that he is a "former student" and not
"graduate"). How can you evaluate the worth of an MBA without even completing
it? If he had finished his MBA and then saw all the positions he interviewed
for being given to graduates from the top schools then he might have realized
a different lesson.

------
Dwolb
My favorite description of an MBA is "summer camp for adults".

Yeah you're not going to suddenly come out of an MBA as a master of the
universe, but you're going to learn some cool topics, immerse yourself in your
choice of extra-curriculars, meet some amazing people, and have a surprisingly
enjoyable experience.

------
lordnacho
Well, there’s no reason to do an MBA if you are interested in learning the
content. This is quite true, especially as people who write about business
tend to be quite good at reaching people. I did a good part of an MBA as part
of my engineering degree at a world class university in Britain.

I can honestly say, engineering is much more taxing on the brain than
business. It’s hard to even call it learning, when what you’re doing is just
reading through some cleaned up summaries of what various businesses did.
Mostly it seemed like storytime, with companies instead of fairies. You better
watch out, or you’ll get leapfrogged! As if people in the old businesses
hadn’t considered that. In general there was a lot of dressing things up as
complicated when really the truth was probably that the firms did what they
could with the information they had. Mintzberg probably sticks out as the best
guy to describe how decisions are really made.

Looking back, there was also a real lack of practical business skills being
taught. The main thing I would teach is some form of agile management. Or any
kind of practical how-to-organize a group to do something. Without a guide on
the nitty gritty, you end up having a strange birds-eye view of the business,
with no idea how to get towards your goal. In my career working practices have
made the biggest difference to what strategies could be followed.

------
ssharp
I have an MBA from a mid-tier school. Top 50 but not top 12. I don't really
have any regrets other than I initially started at a third-rate school and
decided to transfer after two semesters. The differences between the materials
were negligible. The differences between professors was noticeable but not
alarming. The differences between classmates was the part that was alarming.
From talking with MBAs from top programs, I know their material wasn't
substantially different either. So the value isn't entirely the material. It's
functionally working with and learning from other smart and driven people.
Class discussions are better, class projects are better, and you learn a lot
watching others do the same work as you in different ways.

My post-MBA job probably could have been gotten without an MBA. There could
have been other things I did over those three years of evening classes to
improve specific skills. However, having the MBA on my resume expands the
types of companies that would hire me for senior management positions. A lot
of job postings in my area are still MBA-preferred. It may not be like that in
younger companies or higher-growth cities, so I understand why this type of
content ends on on HN frequently.

~~~
pc86
I used to work in health care and an MBA is a requirement for anything above
the lowest rung of management.

------
binarymax
Shout out to The Personal MBA.

[https://personalmba.com/](https://personalmba.com/)

~~~
gedrap
Can second that. Easy to read and covers the core topics, lives up to the
expectation and the promises.

------
raincom
If you get admitted to HBS & Stanford GSB, go there. Wharton: 50/50, many
Wharton MBA grads call it a MBAFactory these days.

Other schools: they have morning MBA, evening MBA, weekend MBA, Dubai MBA, San
Francisco MBA, International MBA, Exec MBA, etc. These schools are just
minting like thousands of MBAs every year. Next time, expect your scrum master
to be an MBA.

~~~
pc86
I have seen LinkedIn profiles for "[Name], MBA, PMP, CSM"

------
rdl
Distance learning, self-funded, non-selective MBA dropout is basically the
worst possible case.

Pretty much the same as for-profit schools getting non-useful degrees (I might
be ok with someone getting a medical tech degree or something like that, even
at the cost of loans, from a non-selective for-profit school). Same as bottom-
tier law schools for employability.

~~~
FreedomToCreate
People may not want to accept this fact, because of there are examples of
outliers that come to mind easily, but what school you attended can
drastically change the job opportunities available to you. For example, in the
engineering field, you can attend the University of Florida for electrical
engineering and get a job at Google, but it will require you to be an outlier
in regards to the amount of effort you put in to get that job because Florida
is not known for its engineering dominance. On the other hand, someone who
attends the University of Waterloo or Stanford from year one is getting
badgered by Google, Apple, Microsoft recruiters, etc... for internships
because those schools have outstanding reputations as engineering schools. On
graduation, someone from Stanford has far less of a uphill battle to find a
position they want, and there connections open up even more opportunities.

This is even more true for MBAs. Had the author gone to Harvard or Stanford,
the opportunity that MBA would have afforded him would have easily justified
the 2 years it took to get it. There is more to this than just the value in
money. For example, most people would rather work on cutting edge technology
at a major corporation that pays less than some small engineering firm that
says works on infrastructure projects. The major corporation will be looking
for that top 20 MBA, and you will never have that opportunity (unless again
you are an outlier) without that universities reputation to back you.

And for those who say this may be discriminatory, just remember that it is
very difficult to judge people in the late 20's or even early 30s on just pure
experience and accomplishment because you are still very young career wise to
have built up any notable portfolio of experience. That is why your educations
is so critical.

------
kriro
Additionally, most MBAs I've researched a while back seem to be geared towards
the ultra extroverted crowd. Harvard is the prototypical example.

At the end of the day my cynical side says they are reasonably expensive (if
you're at a good one and the people you meet are interesting) and overly long
networking events.

I guess they are geared towards people who want to work in corporations after
all (and are usually sponsored by a company) but I can't help but think that
taking the money and spending the time ramen-noodling some idea will teach you
more valuable lessons. For the networking you could also wander around SV
kungfu master style and talk to random people in coffee shops for a couple of
units of time.

It's basically all about the certification (more or less) which is what I'd
say is a fundamental issue about education in general. You can self-learn a
lot of things but not self-certify.

------
puranjay
MBAs are going the way of the law degree.

Unless you are from a top 15 college, it's not worth it.

~~~
ssharp
Not remotely true, though any ridiculously broad statement like probably won't
be true.

~~~
puranjay
When you break it down, it might not be true for some cases. But for the
average guy with a 3.4 GPA considering going to law or b-school to get a
better job - the vast majority of applicants - it's probably not a good
decision

------
olympus
Really I think the title should be: "If you can't get in to a prestigious
business school you're probably better off saving your money"

The quality of MBA programs vary drastically. An MBA from Phoenix (an online
university) costs quite a lot and you will not be recruited into high paying
positions. An MBA from MIT's Sloan School of Management also costs quite a
lot, but you will be heavily recruited by big companies and offered nice
salaries. The difference starts in the quality of their admissions. Phoenix
University lets in anyone who can pay. MIT only lets in the top folks (who can
also pay or can figure out a way for someone else to pay for them). Because
MIT starts out with higher quality people they run a more rigorous program and
the top businesses recognize that MIT graduates are worth more than graduates
from diploma mills. There are other great business schools other than MIT, I'm
just using them as an example. This phenomenon is also seen in the financial
world, a finance degree from an Ivy league school is literally worth tens of
thousands of dollars more than a public university because that is all the big
financial firms want to hire.

This might be confusing to people in the software world where you rise based
on merit, but in the business world a degree is not just a piece of paper but
a pedigree; and your pedigree matters a lot.

------
Chefkoochooloo
A Masters is not really needed unless you need it for your specific career,
but in most cases a Bachlelor's gets you a starting career. In this economy
and way of living, careers are getting hard to find and degrees give you an
advantage over most. That isn't to say that you're guaranteed a career. Some
don't need a degree because their communication skills get them through most
of the process. Somewhere in between, however, they would have to get the
knowledge somehow.

------
an4rchy
I'm in the middle of the application process for an MBA, and have thought
about this before (cost and time investment).

An MBA is not a magical piece of paper that will guarantee success. However,
it will definitely give you the resources and the network to change your
trajectory. You still have to work really hard at it.

At any of the top schools, there's more competition among the students for
recruiting (for many coveted industries: e.g. IB, PE, Consulting, Tech etc)
because that's where everyone wants to go.

If you're pursuing something non-traditional then you might want to rethink
the need to go to one of the top schools

You're not guaranteed a position just by going to the school and there is
definitely a bias towards a lot of bigger companies recruiting at only the Top
10-15 schools unless you can really network your way to the top.

The MBA is just another data point people use to qualify your candidacy. It's
all about risk management and just like there is a bias towards a
Harvard/Stanford/MIT grad or Google/FB engineers (this is what a lot of
startups list on their site) the MBA is an indicator.

Outside of the brand, I still do think you learn a lot in the class setting
(working with diverse teams who come from different backgrounds and the
ability to work on projects and consult in industries you've never worked in
is a great learning experience)

------
mcv
I should tell my wife who's currently working on an MBA.

But the experience from this article sounds very different from what my wife
is going through. You can't do her MBA while working at a bar; you _need_ to
have a job at a significant company where you have access to financial data
and other stuff. She does the assignments on her own, because she's got to do
it in her spare time between job and family. I suppose her course is
explicitly not aimed at regular just-after-highschool students, but at working
professionals who need some extra theoretical foundation.

Whether any specific class has new information for her varies wildly. The
challenge seems to be more in the right way to write a research paper than in
the actual subject matter, though translating financial and bookkeeping
between English (from the books) and Dutch (everywhere else) can also be a
challengen.

------
timwaagh
they are the entry to the old boys network. i've got an uncle who had one of
these. he really is not that smart but he's been to Nyenrode. so he just gets
jobs from old pals, fails at them. repeat ad infinitum. still brings in a lot
of cash. if i had decent netwroking skills i'd apply there too.

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carlmcqueen
Having gone the corporation route there are jobs that I don't go for because I
don't have the desired degrees and without the degrees the job req. ask for
twice as much experience without it.

I've held off and have done well for it, often the job I wanted wasn't what it
looked like and better opportunities came along with networking and aiming at
the jobs I knew were great fits.

Those I've spoken to have described Wash U in St Louis as mainly international
students and a big group of bitter Boeing employees who don't get 100% of it
paid for anymore like previous employees did. My company offers less than the
cost of a single class for the entire year since there was no correlation with
loyalty.

I'm still torn though, always feels like the grass is greener on the other
side.

------
sean_the_geek
upvoted because I loved the honesty! I am 30 something and these are the exact
sort of reasons which are holding me back from pursuing MBA. I have met people
who have NOT done MBA (or any formal management education FTM) and are running
successful businesses or are in management positions in good corporations. And
I have met MBAs who are doing the job I would not consider if I have an MBA. I
guess the point is to do it for right reasons. Like when you want to switch
career to a new field and MBA can be your gateway. Having an MBA does not
guarantee a high salary or that coveted management position IMHO.

~~~
IkmoIkmo
I'd say, if your company offers (a track) to an MBA, take it. It's free, often
partly in company time (get paid to study, partially), puts you on the fast-
track to succession with HRM, sends a signal to any future employers that your
previous employer marked you as a high-potential, worthy of investing in.

I also recommend doing a Master's in a business field if you're 22 or so in a
country where it makes sense. e.g. in continental europe it's pretty common to
do a 3y bachelor from 18 to 21, and a 1y master's. The 1y master is a
relatively small investment, and e.g. in the Netherlands where most unis are
ranked top 100 worldwide, the cost of a 1y master's is about $2k. In 19/20
cases (making up a number), the added value of the learning/status/grit of
this 1 year experience outweights the $2k+Opportunity-cost of spending this 1
year instead of working, it's an easy decision.

For anyone else? e.g. self-funding a $100k program, spending 1-3 years and
having to forgo work (without company support) when you're in your 30s,
probably not a great idea, on average. At that point the value is mostly
learning, at a huge cost. And in my experience, self-study vs college-study in
the field of business is terrific. The resources for self-study are gigantic,
lots of great books, youtube videos per topic and entire courses from Harvard
or MIT are online, including online testing environments where you can do
exams, and lots of cases that you can buy and work through, all at a 1% cost
of an expensive MBA. It's not exactly the same, particularly for a few
business schools which are actually great and add value, but it's pretty damn
close in most cases.

~~~
sean_the_geek
Couldn't agree more on this "The resources for self-study are gigantic, lots
of great books, youtube videos per topic and entire courses from Harvard ..."

------
d0mme
Problem: In e.g. Germany you need these papers to get access to some jobs,
without you won't get them or nearly only 1% will have chance to get it.

There's no job guarantee with it, but still...

~~~
gnaddel
Are you talking about MBAs or M.A./M.Sc. degrees in related fields?
Personally, I do not even consider MBAs to be much of "a thing" in Germany.
Yes, there are some prestigious universities offering them (St. Gallen comes
to mind) but many people still have not moved on to the Bologna System from
the good old "Diplombetriebswirt" in their hearts, let alone MBAs.

~~~
merb
Especially Bachelor.

In my company we see Bachelors on the same level as people with just a
"Ausbildung" in computer science. I also don't have a MBA or Bachelors and
still got some job offers. It's just what you do. Actually in germany you can
get a job really fast if you are into Scala / Java. Actually it won't make you
rich, but it's good work and in Berlin there are a lot of companies searching
for Scala Developers.

------
AdeptusAquinas
Great article :) The same points could probably be made about a CompSci
degree, or indeed any professional degree. I knew a lot of peers who graduated
despite not really understanding programming (and getting others to do their
assignments). And once out in the workforce, I've worked with developers with
BA degrees who were more valuable than some of those with Masters

------
MichalSikora
In my opinion is true that, for just be entrepreneur you do not need MBA
level. Yes, of course in any high level of Corp or big well organised company
it is helpful (especially when company hires 1k peoples). But when you started
as little start-up, with few friends for it is needless.

------
sjg007
Doubtful. Top programs are worth it. Sheryl Sandberg got an MBA, worked for
the the US Treasury then went straight to VP at Google and then to COO of
Facebook. Contrast this with starting your own company... The content of MBAs
may be the same but the context appears to matter.

------
swingbridge
The MBA seems very much geared towards creating the middle management layers
that bloat many organizations. A class of people too low down to really
influence change but too high up to actually do anything. Many companies are
slashing such positions and that's only a good thing in my opinion.

Be really go at "doing" stuff (as in owning and delivering output) and then as
one advances they become able to inspire others to do stuff too and inflict
positive change in a company. That's what makes a good manager, not an MBA.

Also in my observation the people going for MBAs largely wanted to tick the
"advanced degree" box but weren't in a position to get an advanced degree in a
'real' subject. That's what led to the mass proliferation of programs that has
really significantly devalued the MBA overall.

~~~
eitally
I would have agreed 100% before switching industries myself and seeing how
helpful & productive ex-consultant MBAs can be in getting things done. It
totally depends on the corporate culture and the roles these people are put
in.

------
gregors
Thinking about an MBA? - check out this guy instead
[https://www.harrisonmetal.com/](https://www.harrisonmetal.com/)

Full disclosure - my company worked on his site.

------
dikdik
> Don’t be fooled. Do you need to pay thousands to meet middle managers from
> industries that you have no interest in?

This line gave me a pretty good chuckle.

------
steele
The comments to this are surprisingly risk averse given the audience of people
interested in technology & start-up culture.

------
spacecowboy_lon
Depends if your gaming the immigration system having a masters helps

~~~
an4rchy
Are you talking about specific countries? I know that it's only for STEM
specializations (in countries like US), which doesn't cover an MBA.

~~~
desdiv
_Any_ masters gives you an edge when applying for the H-1B visa:

>An advanced degree exemption is available for the first 20,000 petitions
filed for a beneficiary who has obtained a U.S. master’s degree or higher. [0]

[0] [https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-
worker...](https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-
workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/h-1b-fiscal-year-
fy-2016-cap-season)

------
vacri
Maybe not an MBA per se, but some business training is useful. I keep on
seeing the simplest mistakes in startups, especially around invoicing (which
is most visible to me in terms of business stuff). Invoices that don't have
the name of the company or the product on them. Invoices that are dynamically
generated when you view past history (= very susceptible to bugs). Invoices
you can't really print a hardcopy of. Invoices without tax components.
Invoices with totals in weird positions; without dates; without payment
guides; with dates, but without invoice numbers.

When it comes to business, invoices are one of the _easiest_ things to get
right, and yet so many fail. Makes you wonder about their business nous on
other topics.

