
I'm Pirating the Next Version of Windows - jcnnghm
http://littlebitofcode.com/2012/01/18/im-pirating-the-next-version-of-windows
======
melling
If you don't like their product or policies, don't use it. If you use it then
you should pay for it. Use Linux, a BSD Unix, or a Mac. People who pirate
Microsoft products don't really hurt Microsoft, they hurt the rest of the
competition.

~~~
jarrett
Certain applications that professionals need are only available on Windows.
Most games are as well. Even for software with Mac/*nix versions, a person may
have quite a bit of money tied up in Windows-only licenses.

I'm not commenting on whether pirating Windows is ethical. I'm just pointing
out that sometimes you'll have to ditch a lot of software to ditch Windows.

~~~
Groxx
You're just reinforcing their argument. By not using the competition, you're
ensuring the market for those products on the competition's OS doesn't exist.
It's _actively_ strengthening Microsoft's hold on the markets you frequent.

~~~
jcnnghm
OK. The primary application that I need Windows for is Quickbooks Enterprise.
I also still use my Windows Photoshop license since it was expensive, and not
transferrable to OS X. My primary operating system is already OS X, and I only
use Debian Stable on servers. I run Windows in a VM when I need those
application, and only when I need those applications. How would you suggest
replacing Quickbooks Enterprise? Do I just stop keeping accounting records?
What about the 13 years of records that are already in the accounting system?
Should I throw those out? What about inventory and accountant's copies? Will
you train my customer's accounting firm to use some other package? What about
the inventory database?

~~~
melling
Microsoft has 90% desktop market share. Software developers won't support
other operating systems until they have more market share, and people won't
switch to other OS'es until there's more software.

If the software you need only runs on Windows then you should pay for Windows.
Those that can move to Mac, Linux, etc and get away with using Wine or other
alternatives should. The markets for alternative OS'es will grow then more
people will be able to move.

Sounds like you are stuck on the Windows environment. You should stay and pay
for Windows. There's nothing wrong with that.

~~~
silentOpen
There is something wrong with software vendors abusing their customers,
however.

------
MatthewB
These are great points and a good portion of piraters do so for these exact
reasons. There are always going to be people who steal content/apps instead of
paying for them but I am sure more than a few people pirate purely because it
is a better user experience than what is currently offered.

TV shows are a great example. I cut my cable about a year ago and haven't
looked back since. I refuse to pay a premium for channels packaged together
that I never watch.

Currently, I use a combination of Netflix, Hulu Plus, Amazon Prime, Apple TV,
and Zune Marketplace to fill my content needs. They provide a great user
experience but the pricing structure/availability is lacking. Most shows
available on Prime, Apple Tv, Zune are only available for purchase. What if I
don't want to purchase them? Why can't I rent TV shows just like I rent
movies? I have never been one to purchase and own content since I usually
don't watch things more than once. I pay to rent movies all the time from
Apple TV and Zune via Xbox.

Hulu Plus is great, but they have a fraction of the content I would like to
watch. Basically, there's not a perfect solution yet but I refuse to go back
to cable. Here's what I would like to see:

1\. Charge me per view, don't sell me the content to own.

2\. If the margin is too thin for the rental model, throw an ad in there...I
won't mind. (Hulu plus does this)

3\. Let the content producers sell their content directly to me to increase
margin. This can be done by the content producers creating apps for Xbox,
Roku, etc.

4\. Make all previous seasons of shows available to me for rental to increase
revenue.

5\. Use these awesome new technologies to create deeper
experiences/interactions with the content, which will open up new revenue
streams.

~~~
Karunamon
Minor niggle, but please stop misusing "steal". We need to get that meme
killed.

~~~
MatthewB
What do you call it?

~~~
Karunamon
Take your pick. There's:

Using unlicensed software

copyright infringement

downloading a torrent

pirating

..among others.

None of them roll off the tongue as nicely as "steal" or "thief", but
copyright infringement is just as illegal as stealing.

The industry groups have been campaigning for years (with great success) to
ensure they mean the same thing. They do not.

Please don't fall into their trap.

~~~
MatthewB
Hmm...interesting. I see the difference you are trying to illustrate but to
me, obtaining something illegally that was intended to be purchased is
stealing. We're talking about the same thing though:)

~~~
vectorpush
If they were the same thing, then that would mean downloading a copy of Star
Wars is equivalent to pocketing the Star Wars DVD in your entertainment
center.

When does the act of stealing occur? If I download a torrent and then delete
it without watching/playing/listening, did I steal it? If so, then does that
mean repeatedly copying the file to and from an external hard drive is
repeated theft?

Does it become stealing only if I make use of the material? If I buy the movie
and show it to ten house guests for free, are they thieves? They didn't pay to
watch and the author would have preferred it if they did. If they aren't
thieves, why would they become thieves if I uploaded ten copies to each friend
instead of showing it to them in my living room? Of course, I would be
_infringing on the author's legal copyright_ , but I don't see where any
stealing can be definitively identified.

~~~
joshma
It's equivalent in an ethical sense, not equivalent in the legal sense. I
think it's perfectly fine to call it stealing, since it embodies the core
meaning "steal" is meant to convey. You're depriving another of something that
is rightfully theirs, control over their creative content. Let's not get
pedantic here, lest we devolve into discussing what "to steal the spotlight"
means.

~~~
reissbaker
"Stealing" generally connotes taking something away from someone else. With
piracy, a potential sale is lost: the pirate _might_ have bought the item were
it not available illegally for free. With theft, there is both potential sale
loss and property loss: if you steal a car from Toyota, they lose the ability
to sell the car to you, and they also lose access to the car itself (which
prevents them from selling it to anyone else). So Toyota loses twice, whereas
the RIAA loses only once.

Of course, the ethical difference is probably larger than simply double. To
use an old saying, let us assume that:

    
    
        potential sale = a bird in the bush
    

and,

    
    
        access to physical product = a bird in the hand
    

As we know from the ancient algorithm,

    
    
       a bird in the hand = 2 * (a bird in the bush)
    

Piracy loses a potential sale, and theft loses a potential sale and access to
a physical product. Therefore, given the following equation:

    
    
        a bird in the bush = x * (a bird in the hand + a bird in the bush)
    

We should be able to solve for x, where x is the amount that piracy is as
morally reprehensible as theft.

    
    
        a bird in the bush = x * (2 * a bird in the bush + a bird in the bush)
        a bird in the bush = x * (3 * a bird in the bush)
        a bird in the bush / 3 = x * a bird in the bush
        1/3 = x
    

As you can see, piracy is clearly 1/3rd as bad as theft. But, I have a feeling
that the above algorithm still doesn't sufficiently illustrate the ethical
difference between piracy and theft. Let's try again:

With piracy, the RIAA has lost the potential sale to the individual pirate.
However, they still can sell the same DRMed AAC file to someone else. With our
theft example, not only has Toyota lost the ability to sell to the thief:
they've also lost the ability to sell that car to anyone else in the world.
Therefore, if

    
    
        X = likelihood of sale to one individual
    

and we assume that reduced likelihood of a potential future sale (which is the
RIAA's claim of loss) is equivalent to some loss of income, Toyota's lost
income is:

    
    
        X * world population * price
    

And the RIAA has lost:

    
    
        X * 1 * price
    

Meaning that piracy, at the time of writing, is approximately 7 billion times
better than theft, and increases in its relative virtue at every moment.

~~~
joshma
I'm not sure if you're joking or not by trying to define a quantitative
relationship between piracy and stealing, but here goes anyways:

First of all, relatively pricing should not matter. By your logic, if Toyota's
price was suddenly 0.5 * price, then stealing just got two times better!
What's wrong is wrong.

Second, your equation does not do justice to math. If your definition of X is
the same as mine (i.e. average likelihood an individual will buy this item,
independent of the world population) then you're saying Toyota's lost income
can potentially be GREATER than the price of the car.

In clearer terms, if

    
    
      dX / d(world population) = 0
    

then

    
    
      lost income = X * world population * price
    

does not have an upper bound! With the explosive nature of the world
population, it would seem that theft gets exponentially worse as the years go
by.

Where does the logic break down? Well it seems you've modeled the world's
purchases of A SINGLE CAR as independent of each other. (In other words,
you've modeled the lost income if Toyota had a car stolen by every human in
the world.) What you really want, for n people, is

    
    
      X*P + (1-X)*X*P + (1-X)^2*X*P + ... + (1-X)^(n-1)*X*P  = P*[1-(1-X)^n]
    

\- and there's our upper bound at P.

So now the comparison is between (1 - (1-X)^N) and X. In the case of software
like Windows 7 where relatively few people will go for a free alternative, X
is pretty damn high. I won't argue that it's greater than (1 - (1-X)^N), but
it's nowhere near your estimate of 7 billion.

In all seriousness, I definitely agree that the "relative virtue" of digital
theft is better than other forms. But, as you acknowledge, there is indeed a
loss of value.

------
sp332
_Why can't I just enter my product key and download an updated ISO with
slipstreamed service packs?_

This is especially odd, since you can do exactly that with a one-year TechNet
subscription. [https://technet.microsoft.com/en-
us/subscriptions/buy/hh4429...](https://technet.microsoft.com/en-
us/subscriptions/buy/hh442910) So it's not like they don't have the
infrastructure ready.

------
ChuckMcM
I share the pain this guy experiences. I had Age of Empires 3 which would not
run on my machine, period, because it didn't recognize the CD Rom driver and,
as Microsoft explained, it might be a 'virtual' CD ROM and that would violate
the terms of service. And even though it wasn't and didn't I could never run
their software on that machine.

Thus the who piracy economic argument is broken in three ways:

1) Folks who pirate software won't pay full price, sometimes they won't pay
any price. So the economic 'loss' from piracy is either '0' or the area under
the curve described by units pirated vs actual purchase price.

The loss is 0 if you use the reasoning that if there were perfect piracy
prevention, none of these people would have paid for the retail version.

2) The cost of protection adds additional production costs (printing unique
product code stickers and adding them) adding additional steps to
boxing/shipping, adding additional activation software and its testing.

3) The additional cost of support when legitimate users like this guy call
support to have a human you're paying anywhere between 10 and 25/hr to 'solve'
this persons install/operation problems.

Folks who have done the math, with real numbers (and Lotus comes to mind),
determine that they earn more money by not including DRM on the product. When
Lotus first announced they were removing DRM from their 1-2-3 product they
mentioned that nothing they had done had ever slowed down the availability of
pirated versions but had added additional support burdens every time.

~~~
6ren
Just had a thought on seeing your point 1): Part of the value some people buy
is exclusivity. If others can get it for free, it reduces this aspect of its
value.

~~~
cgoddard
How does exclusivity add any value to a piece of software? The utility and
productivity that I get out of a piece of software is in no way influenced by
how anyone else obtained it. Sure, I might be bitter that I didn't also break
the law and obtain an illegal free copy of my software, but that's really just
sour grapes.

And in business if the value I'm able to produce with software is governed
more by my exclusive ownership than my skill with it and other professional
skills, then it's probably a good idea to find another line of work.

~~~
6ren
I'm saying some people pay more for exclusivity. You're saying they shouldn't.

------
trotsky
Windows activation is shockingly easy. Enter your key and when you go online
it verifies it. If you're not connected to the internet make a 5 minute phone
call. If you don't want to do that, no problem - there is no need to activate
for up to 180 days. Really don't want to activate? No problem - it'll just
turn your screen black and announce it's unlicensed software.

It seems the author's only significant complaint is that they don't provide
him with updated slipstreams to download. It's true - he'd have to make them
himself with the free tools they provide. Maybe they should provide public
updated slipstreams, but this hardly seems like a valid reason to refuse to
pay for the software.

~~~
hrktb
No it is not, at least not for every version. I didn't have to use windows for
a very long time, and about a month ago I installed a windows XP SP3 in a
virtual machine. The grace period ended a few days ago:

    
    
      - the automatic activation failed
      - my product key is said to have been pirated
      - the phone support for registration is now fully automated, and just rejects my phone activation.
      - the machine won't load whole subsystems of windows until is activated (you can monkey your way around from the IE instance you can launch from the activation dialog, but your system is not fully functionnal)
      - I am searching for how to get a human to deal with the situation
    

I might be failing somewhere and this situation is all due to my lack of
experience, but I am with a CD of windows in one hand and a hosed install on
the other, and nowhere to go from there. This is just one of the worse
software experience I ever have in a few years.

~~~
xist
It sounds like the problem stems from the 2 things: 1.) the media you
installed from was not legit 2.) Windows gives you notices that it needs to be
activated, which you ignored.

You won't be able to fix that without reinstalling or using a crack. The phone
activation will work but you need to change product key. There is an article
of Microsoft support site on how to do that actaully.

However, it's a problem with your XP Media... are you 100% sure that is a
legit copy of windows? Where did you get it from?

~~~
sanderjd
I currently have this problem with a Windows 7 machine I bought from eBay. I
can't activate it and I have a black desktop (sorta annoying) and two or three
different things that pop up periodically to yell at me (incredibly
annoyingly, especially the one that makes an obnoxious error noise). This
situation is _definitely_ my fault - there are a few possibilities for where I
went wrong:

1) maybe the guy I bought it from was not legit - I asked him lots of
questions before going through with the purchase but that's about as much as I
could (or would be willing to) do,

2) Using what I believed to be the correct, legal process, I created an
install disk and looked up the key for my existing OEM install, which I used
to reinstall a fresh instance without any of the HP nonsense the machine came
with,

3) For a couple days I had an install using the same key on a VM to test
something with IE9.

Any one of those things could be the problem and they were decisions I made,
Microsoft didn't force or manipulate me. But here's the thing, at the end of
the day what I have is a really obnoxious machine and if I had just bought a
Mac (off of eBay even!) or installed Linux instead, I wouldn't have to deal
with any of this. You're right that the Microsoft experience isn't so bad, if
you follow the rules you're probably going to have a bare minimum of hassle,
but it is still _so much worse_ than the competition on this front.

~~~
lgeek
> looked up the key for my existing OEM install

I think your machine has to have a Windows sticker with the key if it shipped
with an OEM license.

------
joebadmo
While I'm entirely sympathetic to the author's DRM plight, buying the software
and getting the pirate's cleaner experience are not mutually exclusive. If you
want the best experience and a clean conscience (I'm assuming here you think
piracy is wrong, since you've bought so many other copies of MS software), buy
the software, then install a pirated a copy.

I usually do this with new PCs that have Windows pre-installed, so I don't
have to deal with crapware.

~~~
jiggy2011
Would this still be legal though? You are still using an unlicensed copy
regardless of whether or not you happen to additionally own another copy. For
all they know you might install your licensed copy on another computer later
and not remove your unlicensed one.

~~~
joebadmo
I have no idea whether it's technically legal, actually. But I'm working off
two premises: 1. The author doesn't care about legality, since he's finally
resorting to piracy anyway. 2. The author would like to compensate MS for the
use of a Windows license. If those are true, then buying a copy but actually
using a pirate copy does what the author wants.

~~~
DanBC
Eh, the author wants to pay MS money for the product, but also to be able to
use the product without jumping through a bunch of stupid pointless
frustrating hoops.

MS insists these hoops are needed.

The author, after years of giving MS money and jumping through hoops decides
to stop giving them money, and stop jumping through the hoops.

The author is trying to tell MS, in the post and with the lost sale, that the
anti-piracy measures are totally counter-productive, and have pushed a paying
customer into a pirate.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
The author says:

>" _if I have to go through the hassle of pirating it to get a working copy, I
will not be paying for it_ "

Yet his whole argument up to then has been how much easier 'pirating' the OS
is. In short he just doesn't want to pay.

If it were about ease of use he'd send them the money somehow.

------
noss
I understand the resentment, but the right course of action must surely be to
not upgrade. Instead go with an alternative, such as Mac OS or Linux.

~~~
jcnnghm
OS X is actually my primary operating system. There is some software I still
need Windows for though, like Photoshop and Quickbooks Enterprise. I guess I
could upgrade that software, but I am not paying thousands for new features I
won't use. I had to reactivate because Bootcamp is a pain in the ass, so I
removed the partition, installed VirtualBox, and installed on that. It
activated fine, and has deactivated itself twice now, necessitating phone
calls each time. I have probably been through this process 20 times now, with
family computers, Windows XP reinstalls, and the like.

~~~
squidsoup
In an effort to expedite your transition away from Windows entirely, may I
suggest Pixelmator (<http://www.pixelmator.com/>) as a Photoshop alternative?
It is a pleasure to use and has all of the core features of PS (compositing
layers, tools etc).

~~~
jcnnghm
I have Pixelmator, and I think it's a good 60% solution, but it's no
Photoshop. For example, the other day I fired it up to make constrained
rectangular marquee selections, and it can't do that. That doesn't sound like
a big deal, but I wanted to select at a specific aspect ratio because I needed
an image to fit in a specific box. There are lots of little things like that.
Not to mention I've been using Photoshop since the 90s, so I'm very proficient
with it, it does every single thing I need, and I already paid a lot for it.

There really is not a good substitute for Quickbooks Enterprise. And I forgot
Regex Buddy. I downloaded Patterns off the App Store, but it's a poor
substitute. Regexes aren't pretty, but if you are hacking on something a quick
regex can do a lot for a little.

EDIT: I just re-read this, and thought it sounded a little too negative toward
Pixelmator. I think being a good 60% solution in relation to Photoshop is a
huge accomplishment, and that Pixelmator is great software. It is absolutely
worth the money. It is a very competent intermediate image editor, and would
be $30 well spent for anyone. The criticism is mainly directed toward the lack
of some esoteric advanced features, and my curmudgeonly desire to have it work
exactly like Photoshop, since that is how I have edited images for the last
dozen years.

------
waffle_ss
Seems like a pirated .iso would be a great place to deliver malicious code to
Ring 0, hiding itself from the kernel and becoming essentially impossible to
detect from the infected OS itself. I'm sure botnet creators are already well
aware of this.

~~~
huggyface
This is what I marvel at when I read such (poorly justified) piracy screeds.

Are people insane?

I might not have ultimate faith in Microsoft, but comparatively I have zero
faith (and a lot of suspicion) of what are essentially bands of thieves among
piracy groups.

I engaged in casual piracy when I was a teen out of necessity, though I never
felt the need to invent justifications. In my adult life, though...pirating
executables is the domain of the naive or the ridiculously trustworthy.

~~~
Karunamon
I've got a lot more faith in a torrent uploaded by a person with lots of other
torrents (who has no motive but reputation and altruism), with lots of seeders
than I do in a corporation who has a clear and present motive to make me
miserable.

And somehow, I've never been infected by this. It's my conclusion that, much
like the *AA groups nonsense comparisons of piracy to theft, the security
threats are overstated by companies in an attempt to scare people straight.

~~~
Game_Ender
If it's a really good root kit, how would you know you have been infected?

~~~
Karunamon
Probably because I'd find the appropriated information used somewhere.

It's been at least 5 years with not a hint of fraudulent use of my ID or
payment info.

I have, however, been victimized multiple times by corporations being
negligent with my data in the same time period. Sony and whatnot.

Kind of interesting that it's safer to download random untrusted OS code from
the internet than to give my information to a "safe" corporation...

In any case, it's an interesting thought experiment but it gets absurd quickly
when realized. How do _you_ know you're not infected right now by a "really
good rootkit"? Unless you wrote the compiler by hand, compiled every bit of
the OS by yourself, wrote the firmware for your hardware using the same
compiler, etc etc etc, you can't be 100% sure.

You can be reasonably sure, of course. 99% with a few juicy trailing 9's for
good measure, but not 100%.

It's the same way you can't objectively prove you're not dreaming right now.

~~~
gergles
Even if you wrote the compiler by hand, it doesn't matter. See the
_outstanding_ "Reflections on Trusting Trust": <http://cm.bell-
labs.com/who/ken/trust.html>

~~~
Karunamon
Haha! Believe it or not, I had that story in mind when writing the previous
comment. Really the only way to be 100% sure is to manually "bit bash" the
compiler together without using ANOTHER compiler (like you would do if you're
building a toolset for an entirely new architecture).

------
valverde
"Why do pirates have a better experience than customers?"

This pretty much sums it up. I couldn't agree more.

~~~
majorlazer
In many cases, like downloading movies, I agree. But with Windows, I couldn't
disagree more. I used to pirate every version of Windows I owned, back in the
days of Windows 98 and up to Windows XP it was a breeze. Starting around
Windows XP SP3, it got a bit more difficult. It was easy to pirate, but after
a few weeks/months of use, you get the Genuine Advantage warning. With Windows
7, it is even worse. So I decided to purchase my first legitimate copy of
Windows. I haven't looked back. It is so much easier and I don't waste my time
re-cracking my Windows installation every month. It is well worth the price.
Since then I have also acquired a legitimate version of Office 2010, even
though I got it heavily discounted for students, back in the Windows XP days,
I would have laughed at the thought of buying $100+ software.

And anytime I upgrade hardware or even want to move my install to another
computer, the activation is so fast and easy. I don't see how anyone could
make the claim that pirating Windows is easier than installing a legitimate
copy.

~~~
Karunamon
For the majority of people, windows activation and windows genuine "advantage"
works exactly as advertised.

However, when you get on the wrong side of it, it is a pain in the ass of
Lovecraftian proportions. I don't know if it's my luck, choice in hardware, or
what, but I've had perfectly valid (retail!) keys start throwing WGA errors
after working fine for a few months. After spending literally hours on the
phone with someone who speaks broken english, I took my crippled XP install
(this was back in the pre service-pack 2 days where failing activation meant
you got locked out after a few minutes), went to a torrent site, and
downloaded an activator.

2 hours (spent on the phone in a fruitless endeavor with the best of Indian
tech support) and 5 minutes (spent downloading and running a crack) later, I
finally was able to use my bought and paid for software.

After that, I pulled down an ISO with the service packs and cracks and other
goodies slipstreamed in (XP Ultimate Edition by Johnny, still exists out there
somewhere), burned it to a disc, and haven't used "legitimate" channels since.

Microsoft does not have my permission to use my CPU cycles and power to
inflate their antipiracy metrics.

------
csomar
Huh, seriously? I purchased a laptop with a genuine Windows 7 version because
of this particular issue. I'll spend weeks to find a relatively _good_ Windows
copy.

The average seeded copy of Windows on the pirate bay or the likes is crappy.
Cracks sometimes doesn't work. Sometimes the copy comes with a load of crappy
software. Sometimes the cracker changes the Windows theme (not sure why he is
doing so). And sometimes everything goes smooth until some day I get a problem
because my version is not genuine.

I don't install my OS on a daily basis. My average Windows OS install keep up
with me for 3-5 years. I wouldn't be bothered to spend some time activating
the software. So far, the activations for my MS products was easy, fast and
simple.

~~~
re_todd
I recently purchased a laptop with Windows 7 at a national chain, and there is
no CD. If I set up a dual boot, which I normally do, I'll be forced to get a
pirated version. There is supposedly a way to reinstall from a hidden drive or
partition, but that would take over the entire drive. I always wanted to be
legit, but I'm not going to pay again for something that I legally already
have.

------
ubuntuftw
I, too, am getting really tired of this. It's not just Microsoft though. It's
a lot of different companies.

Right now, I'm in the middle of an epic battle with Adobe to get a refund. I
bought an educational version of the CS3 master collection back in 2007 when I
was in college. I tried to upgrade it because a chat representative said I
could, but they were wrong.

After calling their support line 10 times, spending 2-3 hours of my life
either on hold or talking to them, being told twice they would call me in X
hours and them not calling, they have still refused to honor the deal. It has
been the worst customer service experience of my life.

At this point, it's up to some committee at Adobe to decide whether I should
get my refund. Like, really? It's that hard of a decision? You told me X when
X wasn't true. Give me my money back! Quit being tools.

Anyways, I'm hoping I get it. It's a lost opportunity for them though. They
could have said, "Hey, we screwed up. Here are three licenses. We value your
business and hope you'll stay a loyal customer." Then, they could have kept my
money, and kept me as a customer. But that's not what they did.

Going forward, I really don't think I'll be buying Adobe products anymore. Not
because their products are bad. It's that they're over-priced and their
customer service sucks.

------
sciurus
If you already have a windows license but lost your installation media, you
can download it without resorting to piracy. The link below has the URLs for
the retail ISOs hosted by Amazon.

[http://www.mydigitallife.info/windows-7-iso-x86-and-x64-offi...](http://www.mydigitallife.info/windows-7-iso-x86-and-x64-official-
direct-download-links-ultimate-professional-and-home-premium/)

~~~
nailer
Microsoft Store officially tells you that your download time has expired after
you purchase a Windows license, and wish to re-download / re-install more than
3 months after your purchase.

The official solution is to buy an additional copy of the Windows license
which will provide you with a new download URL.

I knows this because I complained to the @microsoftstore twitter account:
after purchasing 2 copies of Windows (the crapware-loaded OEM version, the
clean one from MS store) I had no intention of purchasing a third.

For some reason they simply couldn't allow me a second download, and sent me a
physical disc, which arrived about 6 weeks later, by which time a pirated
Windows 7 was working fine.

However

~~~
fryguy
I've never had any problems with the copy of windows 7 I bought from the
microsoft online store. I've had to redownload it two or three times now, and
it's always been there (although the page is near impossible to find). I had a
screenshot of the page, but imgur is down today so I can't link it.

~~~
nailer
Actually, apparently it's 12 months until you can no longer download the OS
again:

"Be kindly informed that the availability of the software download, purchased
at the Microsoft Store, is limited to one year.

Please understand that as you placed your order more than one year ago,
Microsoft Store does not have access to your order and cannot reset the
download link."

------
danudey
The result has been the same for as long as Windows has had serial keys:
Pirates find a way around them, they share keys, they disable activation, they
patch files, they block hostnames in their hosts files. Regular users jump
through hoops, have activation issues, lose their discs, need to phone in,
etc.

I'm anti-piracy in general, but whenever I install Windows 7 I always bypass
the activation because I've had too many problems going legit.

Likewise with Photoshop. At a previous company, we had a license that would
let us install on up to five machines. At some point, we hit that limit and
couldn't activate it. The confusing thing was that we only had three machines
running it (the main user's desktop, her laptop, and another coworker's
laptop). What we realized was that we'd reinstalled her laptop and the
coworker's laptop recently, and both of those machines were still activated.

When we called Adobe, they pointed us to a KB article on how to de-activate a
Photoshop install, but that requires that it still be installed and working.
Adobe said that they couldn't actually de-activate those machines. After some
arguing back and forth, they agreed to add another machine to our account (so
now we have six machines registered, four with it installed, and two using it
concurrently). Now, every time we reformat a machine, we have to call them
again because no one remembers to de-register Photoshop before they reformat a
user's machine.

iTunes lets you register five computers, and if you hit the limit, de-register
them all to start over again. How hard is that?

------
jiggy2011
I don't use pirated versions of Windows so I don't know the answer to this but
I would assume it's a bad idea because:

Your trusting a .ISO image from a random website, how do you know there is not
time bombed malware pre-installed?

Do you still have access to Windows update? If so for how long, I assume it
can't be difficult for Microsoft to figure out who is using it illegitimately
since some versions must be using either the same keys or keys that have never
been issued to a copy of Windows that they have sold?

~~~
w1ntermute
> Your trusting a .ISO image from a random website, how do you know there is
> not time bombed malware pre-installed?

You don't have to use torrents. You can get a direct download of vanilla
Windows 7 ISO's hosted by Microsoft: [http://www.mydigitallife.info/official-
windows-7-sp1-iso-fro...](http://www.mydigitallife.info/official-
windows-7-sp1-iso-from-digital-river/)

> Do you still have access to Windows update? If so for how long, I assume it
> can't be difficult for Microsoft to figure out who is using it
> illegitimately since some versions must be using either the same keys or
> keys that have never been issued to a copy of Windows that they have sold?

Nope, there's a workaround built into Windows because the OEMs strongarmed MS
into adding it. You can get a piece of software called the Windows Loader that
will activate Windows using this workaround with just one click and a reboot:
[http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/24901-Windows-
Loade...](http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/24901-Windows-Loader-
Current-release-information)

~~~
jiggy2011
Ok, so you can activate it but what happens if MS decides at some point to
block your updates or track you.

I assume they keep a record everytime they issue a license either to an OEM or
wholesaler etc and if your using a keygen they could simply check their
database and find that such a key was never issued.

If you use a key that was already registered to someone else then surely they
know because your computer name/username or a hash of your hardware config (I
assume this info is sent to windows update) will be different.

~~~
roc
> _"Ok, so you can activate it but what happens if MS decides at some point to
> block your updates or track you."_

You run the same risk anyone who used the old FCKGW key ran. I'm not
suggesting it's a good idea, I'm just pointing out that many, many people were
willing to do just that. And they won't blink at the similar risks in this new
workaround.

------
reidmain
One of the greatest features of the Mac App Store is the ability to download
the latest version of OS X Lion and then make a bootable image of it.

I upgraded from Snow Leopard to Lion the day it came out but then had to do a
clean install a couple of months later.

Instead of using my out-of-date installer I downloaded the latest version of
Lion and did a clean install. No waiting hours fro system updates because my
install medium was old.

~~~
jsz0
With newer machines (2011 MBA, Mini, maybe the iMac too?) you can even start
the OS install straight from the boot loader. It basically net boots the Lion
Recovery image and then proceeds with downloading/installing the OS. Pretty
slick.

------
tgrass
#7 on the front page of Hacker News. And there's confusion as to why SOPA is
being considered by Congress.

------
kyriakos
I'm actually pirating the version of windows i am using to write this. I
bought this laptop which came with a super bloated version of windows 7 64
home edition. no media was provided. you can create your own but it includes
the bloatware that comes with it originally installed which defeats the
puprose. therefore i went to my favorite torrent site and download windows 7
64 bit home edition and installed it.

i know its not exactly microsoft's fault their os gets so much bloat.. but the
experience i was getting from new machine was nowhere near the one i am
getting after the clean install.

------
razzaj
I disagree totally with the logic the article is following. If you do not like
Microsoft's products and services (I don't) that is totally acceptable, and i
might add understandable, deal with other software vendors ! I do not
understand the logic saying "I hate your service and so i will just steal the
product".

If you want to make your point just go ahead and complain, send a written
letter move to another vendor (I Have). Stealing, And i will call it that
because it is stealing, is not a legitimate nor a logical reaction to crappy
service.

The entire internet philosophy, IMO, was build on trust and a certain code of
honor if i may say (at the risk of sounding corny) breaking that breaks the
internet. Imagine people just screwing up Wikipedia because they think Jimmy
Wales did something wrong in their opinion or because an article of their got
removed or whatever.

Piracy has always been, and will always be, a thing of the internet. think of
it as a wicked charm. I will not encourage eradicating it. To be honest i have
used pirated software to evaluate when vendors wont offer evaluation options.
But then i would go and buy the damn license, because: 1 - it is the right
thing to do, regardless. 2 - If i like something, paying for it will support
the vendor to continue on making the stuff i like.

I personally do not like the way Microsoft does business, i dont like their
products and i think they are arrogant pricks but if i need to use windows
(god forbid) i will still pay for the damn license.

------
nsxwolf
Pirating makes sense when the pirates end up providing a superior product that
the publisher won't provide at any price.

This was true for video games, where the copy protection schemes often
resulted in a bad experience for paying customers.

But for an OS, having to enter a product key once doesn't seem to harm the
experience as much as possibly getting a rooted kernel would.

I think, in general, there aren't a lot of good reasons for grown-ups to not
pay for the commercial software they want to use.

------
maurits
Although I don't find MS to be the worst of all suppliers, it is yet an other
prime example how companies fail to grasp that the only way they will ever
compete with pirated content (be it right or wrong) is by service and by
service only. The pirated price is already unbeatable and shamefully, its
service is arguably better.

A bit of a rant, but I am getting a bit tired that, still as we enter 2012,
what does the paying customer get for his troubles? You don't live in country
xx? You can't see/listen/buy online content yy. Although definitely in music
and games there has been progress, I could still add hundreds of more
examples.

And what currently is the envisioned answer to this flawed business model? A
set of laws that will inevitably alter some of our more dear democratic
principles. Not to mention the economic fallout.

On a side note, I can't help wondering my thoughts to the teen-sex debates in
the US, where some people hopelessly cling to abstinence measures which in
theory, work fine. Whereas in practice, there seems to be quiet some empirical
evidence that young people, well, just do it.

------
cosmez
that and Windows its 50 times the minimum wage here in mexico.

------
ilitirit
I've got several legitimate Windows licenses. I tried to install it on my
dad's computer but I had to leave before the installation completed. I
returned a few days later to activate it but somehow a virus managed to infect
it. I removed the virus, but Windows just refused to activate with a LEGAL
KEY. I tried activating by phone and I received an activation key but it
didn't work either (permissions error or something). So I just did the
sensible thing and installed a version that I found on TPB.

Seriously Microsoft, drop the activation scheme. It's not necessary and causes
nothing but frustration for your end users.

------
WettowelReactor
I dont know why they do this for their client OS but for server OS you can get
a free evaluation download of any server product and activate it with a
purchased key, no muss no fuss. Also using the provided download manager I
have never seen speed issues with these downloads. As far as phone activation,
which we have to do for several sites without internet access, the process is
a bit long but not nearly as tedious as described. I am admittedly against DRM
but if anyone comes close to doing it right its Microsoft on their OS
software.

------
eli
I wouldn't recommend you try this at your startup. Some day, a potential
investor or partner is going to audit your licenses and it'll be pretty
embarrassing if you're way out of compliance.

~~~
frankwiles
Might seem like I just hate MS, but honestly I would be just as upset as a
potential investor or partner that they were running Windows in the first
place. Licensed or not. Unless of course your startup was focused somehow on
Windows development, users, etc. where it would obviously be necessary.

Startups are hard enough as it is, no need to make them harder.

~~~
memnips
Microsoft Bizspark (<http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/>) gives startups that
are less than 3 years old and earn less than $1M in annual revenue free MSDN
Ultimate access.

That means free access to all of MS software. It's actually a really amazing
program.

~~~
robocat
The BizSpark program has limitations (although still a fantastic deal!).

* AFAIK you are licenced to use the software for development and testing purposes ONLY. Not internal use (see the BizSpark FAQ, even though other BizSpark materials seem to imply otherwise).

* Except you do get a production 2 proc SQL Server licence, and Windows Server licences... However you may not be able to use the licences with some hosting providers (due to their licences with Microsoft, or just unfamiliarity or complexity overhead).

* The BizSpark websites are a time-wasting labyrinth whenever you must update anything (might have improved?).

* There are so many catch-alls to prevent "misuse" of the licence, that it looks as though you can't legally use any of the software... although in spirit you can use it and Microsoft isn't going to chase you... (at least that was how I read the licences last time I looked but IANAL YMMV).

------
steder
I think the author is missing the point. Microsoft doesn't really care about
the license fee. Your lifetime value to them as a consumer of Windows specific
services, digital media, and software is much more valuable than the license
fees you'll pay.

On a related note why bother to use Windows if you don't plan on purchasing
other Windows-only software? Is the author also planning to pirate Visual
Studio and the like as well? If no Microsoft software is being used why not
try Linux or Mac?

------
kenneth_chau
[http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/shop/download-
win...](http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/shop/download-windows-7)

------
powertower
If you're activating MS products by entering "100-digit" activation keys into
your telephone, you're already doing something wrong...

Or are a complete edge/outliner case.

~~~
jcnnghm
Says the guy that doesn't have any family members that persistently fubar
their systems, necessitating enough reinstalls to trip the activation limit.

~~~
powertower
If your family members are destroying the OS, the best solution is to either
run in a VM which is set to not persist changes (via VMWare or the free
options), or to boot from a VHD file for your other members (keep a clean and
activated copy that you can revert to).

There are many options to solve this issue (ex: the native VHD boot,
VirtualPC, HyperV).

Telling Microsoft to remove activation is a knee-jerk reaction that helps no
one.

You can even run Linux as the Host OS.

I write and sell software, and activation is absolutely critical and
responsible for at least half my revenue.

~~~
theBobMcCormick
That sounds like an heck of a lot of extra work just to deal with Microsoft's
anti-piracy activation system. IMHO, your "answer" just reinforces the
original author's point. Why should legitimate paying customers have to deal
with all of these workaround and annoyances? Why should legitimate customers
have to endure being treated like potential criminals? Especially when these
activation systems _aren't stopping the pirates_!!!!!!!

~~~
powertower
He's not dealing with Microsoft's anti-piracy activation system as much as
he's dealing with issues about family members.

And your point about MS not knowing what it's doing...

If the activation system was useless, and had no effect on revenue, it would
be gone the next day.

I've been a legitimate customer since Windows 3.1, and I've only had to
activate by phone 1 time. It was painless.

~~~
theBobMcCormick
Having to re-install the OS because of virus issues, etc. is _NOT_ usual and
shouldn't be punished by forcing the user to go through some stupid activation
system.

Having to re-activate because of hardware upgrades (new motherboard, etc) is
also not unusual. Again, I don't see why a PAYING customer should be be
punished by forcing the user to go through some stupid activation system, when
pirates _don't_ have to deal with the activation system.

Just because the activation system hasn't negatively affected _you_ doesn't
mean it hasn't negatively affected many, many paying customers. Why should I
get treated like shit for being a paying customer, when I could get a better
user experience by pirating Windows?

------
Too
This is why i will always save a copy of my windows xp enterprise edition cd.
It's xp, which is still decent enough, and it doesn't require any activation,
as opposed to the home/pro-editions.

In case apocalypse happens (ehum, my ISP goes down for 24h) i know i can still
get a computer up and running without problem if i have to.

~~~
nextparadigms
Is that legal? One of the reasons MPAA/RIAA are pissing everyone off and have
lost all credibility is that they have helped write and pass many copyright
related laws that make even the most natural things to do illegal. They are so
out of touch with reality.

------
andrest
This was the case for music for a long time (still is, but to a lesser extent)
before iTunes came along. Downloading music through Napster, Limewire or
BitTorrent was simply easier and more effortless. Even though people were
willing to pay, they didn't because that would have required more effort to do
so.

------
samstave
>"Why can't I just enter my product key and download an updated ISO with
slipstreamed service packs? "

This is why i still use the MSDN account from many employers ago...

YOU CAN DO THIS with MSDN -- Why not make the MSDN model the way everyone
receives their copy. Also, stop selling me CDs or DVDs - put them on USB
sticks.

------
joejohnson
This is another example of companies pushing away would-be paying customers.
This dumb logic has been the music industries policy for a while now; every
person brought to trail for piracy was a potential customer or fan of the
artist whose music they were pirating.

------
andrewfelix
Disaster recovery is much easier with a legitimate windows licence. Both in
terms of having the original recovery disk, and support.

There are subtle issues with pirated installations that can cause serious
issues when things start to go wrong. (Speaking from experience)

------
akg
Plain and simple, the existence of piracy is not due to the lack of
legislation but due to market failure. I find that many people are more than
happy to pay for good service and good products -- even if there are
cheaper/free alternatives.

------
schoudha
You don't have to use Windows. The best way to protest is by using another
product.

Claiming that you have the moral authority to pirate it is just wrong, doing
so re-enforces the need for MSFT to have even stricter anti-piracy measures.

------
twodayslate
I am buying my next copy of Windows. You can get a copy really cheap now if
you look hard enough (less than $100) through MSDNAA or through another
student organization. For me, peace of mind is worth the price.

~~~
cgoddard
The discount is a nice thing for students, but there are plenty of non-
students in the US and especially other parts of the world where dropping a
few hundred dollars on software that makes their computer work is a major
burden.

Given the large distribution of the Windows OS (this isn't boutique software
with a small customer base), it really doesn't make much sense that it's so
expensive. If the price was lowered significantly ($50 maybe?), I think MS
would see piracy numbers go down and sales go up more than enough for them to
remain profitable.

------
baby
Bought windows XP. Lost the CD. Had to pirate it.

Bought windows 7 online. Had to download it through windows special download
manager which took ages, then gave me some exec that I couldn't burn on a
CD... I had to pirate it.

------
GigabyteCoin
These are all valid points, aligned with many of the views being upvoted
today. However, I'd just like to point something out.

According to this article and many others, we all "pirate stuff" because it's
"easier than the paid model"... well, the same goes for driving a car.

I would much rather just walk into my underground parking lot, hotwire a car,
and ditch it once I got to my destination. But, I have morals.

I am not likening stealing a car to copyright infringement, only pointing out
the reasoning that "I pirate because it's easier to do so" isn't really a
moral/valid point.

It's easier for me to kill you instantly with my gun than it is for me to
reason with you about a topic I don't care to reason about, too.

~~~
Drbble
Killing only easy in the absence of social and legal pressure, and in our
instincts to not harm members of our "tribe"

------
zanst
Seriously, you should start to support free Operating Systems instead of loose
your time with Microsoft, pirating it or not.

------
asmosoinio
The site seems down. Do we need a mirroring service to help with "the HN
effect"? Or just people to fix their sites?

------
dspillett
This is not how to show them, nor is it a way to justify piracy.

Unless you really can't live without the next version of Windows, don't use it
at all. Keep with the current version for as long as you can (I'm still on XP
on the only Windows machine I have) or switch to an alternative (this may be
the route I take when I next rebuild).

I'll be rebuilding that desktop machine at some point this year and what-ever
OS goes on the new build I hope will not need reinstalling for a few years (so
I'll have to upgrade from XP as it drops out of security update support early
in 2014). I'm trying to decide to go for Windows 7, or just go completely
Linux - currently the Linux option is winning in my mind.

Pretty much the only reason I still run Windows on this home desktop is games.
I use OpenOffice for my own documents, and when I need access to MS Office,
Visual Studio, and so forth from here I simply VPN+RDC into my machine at the
office these days. The rub is that lately I've not been playing that much
(I've not had time) and there aren't any games in the near future that I could
name as being something I'm waiting for (I'm done waiting for HL?EP3 - if they
release it before I leave Windows-land then I'll pre-order, if not then
they'll only get a sale out of me if it runs on Linux fine), with PC gaming
apparently going in the "beg and jump through hoops or we won't let you play"
direction ([http://games.slashdot.org/story/12/01/17/1838237/ubisoft-
has...](http://games.slashdot.org/story/12/01/17/1838237/ubisoft-has-windows-
style-hardware-based-drm-for-games)) I can see myself simply refusing to buy
any new games from the major publishers even if I do keep Windows, and most of
the games I have played much of recently could probably be implemented in
browsers soon enough (if not already) at which point the choice of underlying
OS becomes irrelevant.

So my position is: _if_ I buy Windows 7 in the next six months it may well be
the last Windows license I personally purchase. If I don't, then XP will have
been (unless you count the Windows 7 Starter license that came with my netbook
but currently remains unused). Either way I won't pirate it: it is a buy or
don't decision. Heck, if I decide to not keep up-to-date games wise (and
decide that I'm not likely to be bothered by losing access to the games I've
bought previously) then I'll not only save £80 for the Windows license but I
could save a chunk getting a less flashy GFX card too (I'm only upgrading that
in this build to get a card with 3 or more outputs that can be used
concurrently).

Pirating will just tells them that you want their platform but don't want to
pay, using something else tells them that you can live without them and if
they want you not to live without them then there are things they need to
change.

~~~
tobylane
He is protesting against the overly difficult DRM in an otherwise desirable
product. It's easy to skip all the annoying parts, with so few if any
downsides.

It's the Windows version of the DVD flow diagram[1] that explains why a
pirated movie file is much better than the DVD. I rip all DVDs I come into
contact with, and borrow friends DVDs just to rip them. Even if I had time to
watch them without ripping I wouldn't want to.

<http://i.imgur.com/Xm27A.jpg>

------
paulhauggis
The problem is that it will never be enough. Even if Microsoft gave you
everything to you exact specification and only charged $20/license, there
would still be a group of people trying to defend piracy.

Just look at the Android/Iphone app market. 99 cent apps are still not
convenient or cheap enough for many users, so they pirate it.

This is why I feel that all of these excuses are bullshit.

~~~
masklinn
> there would still be a group of people trying to defend piracy.

Of course, just as you'll always find DRM apologists who find Ubisoft's
insanity still isn't enough. That's not really a segment of the population
worth discussing with though, since they won't buy either way (either because
they don't want to, or because they just don't have the money, I was once that
impoverished student).

What you can rely on are numbers and the results of those who thought
convenience was a major reason[0] for piracy and tried to fix it. And what do
you find out? That Steam and iTunes turn out to make money. Who'd have
thought?

> This is why I feel that all of these excuses are bullshit.

Oh, bad apples are sufficient to dismiss out of hand anything that comes even
remotely close to something they could say?

Well I guess you can trivially be dismissed as well, then.

[0] preempting your strawman, I did not write "the only reason".

------
billpatrianakos
This is laughable! User gets pissed by activation system. User does the exact
thing that causes the activation to not only exist but become more infuriating
as time goes on.

How about you either deal with it or not use Windows. If its that much of a
pain then there's no reason to use it. Come on. How do we not see the blatant
excuse to pirate something here?

~~~
cgoddard
What's more laughable is that a minority decide to pirate a piece of software,
and everyone gets punished. No, actually, in large part only the people who
chose _not_ to pirate get punished. How far does it have to go before people
realize the whole strategy is absurd?

