
Gruber's source: Microsoft only sold 503 Kins. - swilliams
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/07/07/kin
======
mixmax
From the wikipedia entry on Kin:

 _"The Kin was based on Windows CE"

"Kin only supports email attachments, and does not support attachments to
other media (like MMS)"

"The handset does not store photos or videos. Instead, every photo and video
taken on the Kin is uploaded to Microsoft's server"

"There is no photo editing software for Kin."

"Kin does not currently support playing video from sites such as YouTube or
Hulu"

"Kin has no app store and no 3rd party apps can be installed on Kin."

"the Kin web browser does not support Flash web applications, and there are no
games for Kin."

"Kin has no calendar or appointment application, nor any ability to sync with
Outlook calendar or Google Calendar"

"Kin is unable to Instant Message (IM), or use any IM client"

"There is no spelling correction or predictive text input on the Kin."

"There are no MicroSD or memory expansion slots."

"Kin will not sync or transfer contact lists from some non-Microsoft services
(eg Gmail and Yahoo! Mail)"_

Wonder why it failed...

~~~
teaspoon
To be fair, iPhone launched with almost all of the same limitations. Not to
say that today's Kin should be competing with yesterday's iPhone, but even
today, none of those limitations is a dealbreaker for me.

~~~
zyb09
If you're gonna compete, you'll have to compete with the iPhone4 not 2007's
iPhone. That said, I don't know if all these statements are true, but some
would be quite dealbreaking for me.

~~~
jarek
If you think the Kin was meant to compete with any iPhone, let alone iPhone 4,
you've missed a couple of memos.

~~~
InclinedPlane
That's part of the problem, it wasn't significantly cheaper, the majority cost
is the cost of the plan. When you can buy an iPhone 3GS or a Droid incredible
for a mere 10% bump in cost over the standard 2 yr plan it makes absolutely no
sense to buy a Kin, which is why nobody did.

If your feature-wise competition is at a price point you can't even touch,
then you made a huge mistake. If your price-comparable competition is at a
featureset you can't even touch, then you made an even bigger mistake.

------
patrickgzill
There are 42 reviews of it on Verizon Wireless' site. Pretty amazing ratio if
only 503 were sold.

[http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/store/controller?item=pho...](http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/store/controller?item=phoneFirst&action=viewPhoneDetail&selectedPhoneId=5291&reviewTab=true)

~~~
tiles
There's also ~215,000 fans on Facebook:

<http://www.facebook.com/KIN#!/KIN?v=wall>

One could probably count up the number of comments which mention owning a Kin,
to confirm whether 503's lowballing it or not.

~~~
AmericanOP
Wow. It looks like MS has a staffer managing the Kin facebook group by
actually responding to posts. Looks like they're putting their social media
budget to good use. From the page: As you probably heard, we have made the
decision to focus our efforts on the upcoming Windows Phone 7 launch, and will
not ship KIN in Europe this fall as planned. We will continue to work with
Verizon Wireless in the U.S. to sell KIN phones and support customers. (7
hours ago). Back to beating the dead windows mobile horse.

------
coverband
The total users of the Kin Facebook app (which requires the device to sign up)
is around 9,000.

~~~
TeHCrAzY
Good pickup.

------
rajbot
From the comments of a MS employee on the Mini Microsoft blog [1]:

> A billion dollars wasted on Kin, 500 phones sold and a huge amount of ground
> lost in the mobile space.

Two million dollars per user??

[1]: [http://minimsft.blogspot.com/2010/07/kin-fusing-kin-
clusion-...](http://minimsft.blogspot.com/2010/07/kin-fusing-kin-clusion-to-
kin-and-fy11.html)

------
kenjackson
I wouldn't trust Gruber's sources. There are other sources that put the number
at more than 1,000, but less than 10,000.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
I heard from a couple reliable sources that 1,000 < KINs sold < 10,000, too.

~~~
sambeau
This article quotes 500 from a Microsoft employee. While they may be quoting
Gruber I find it more unlikely that they wouldn't have at least a ballpark
figure.

[http://minimsft.blogspot.com/2010/07/kin-fusing-kin-
clusion-...](http://minimsft.blogspot.com/2010/07/kin-fusing-kin-clusion-to-
kin-and-fy11.html)

------
einarvollset
503 Service Unavailable.

Heh.

------
sekou
[http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/02/life-and-death-of-
microso...](http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/02/life-and-death-of-microsoft-
kin-the-inside-story/) <http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/30/what-killed-the-
kin/>

These two articles from Engadget explain what happened very well. Essentially
the thing was dead and cannibalized before it was released, it's a very sad
story.

------
Encosia
Not sure how conclusive or infallibly accurate this is, but it seems a lot
more credible than the rumors people have been floating lately:
[http://pocketnow.com/rumor/actually-kin-sold-more-
than-503-d...](http://pocketnow.com/rumor/actually-kin-sold-more-
than-503-devices)

------
mcknz
And 500 of those were Microsoft employees.

~~~
bluishgreen
clever, but how do you explain the rest of the 3 units!

~~~
mcknz
They thought they were ordering a kindle.

------
Zak
It seems obvious to me from playing with one in a store that few people would
look at both the Kin Two and the Android-powered LG Ally, which have identical
prices for phone and service and pick the Kin. I think the only way it could
have worked would have been for the Kin to have a much cheaper plan.

------
PanMan
Pocketnow says 8810 were in use: [http://pocketnow.com/rumor/actually-kin-
sold-more-than-503-d...](http://pocketnow.com/rumor/actually-kin-sold-more-
than-503-devices) Not a lot, but more than 503

------
makmanalp
I think the proper approach to something like this would be to build a social
network and then introduce the device, not the other way round. You can't
expect users to flock when the barrier to entry is the price of a device and
the success of the network is questionable at best. If Facebook made a deal
with a mobile device company (say HTC) and made a similar product, they'd be
oodles more successful. Although the fact that our phones nowadays support
apps and can browse the web makes this sort of moot anyway.

~~~
jasonlotito
The price wasn't theirs to set. The Kin was a pretty cool product for the
market. The price, however, was unreasonable.

Apple get's a free pass with the iPhone despite AT&T, but MS releases a good
product, and people blame the phone companies issues on MS.

~~~
sasidharm
Prices can be negotiated with the carriers. Remember the original iPhone's
600$ price tag? Infact, MS supposedly got a very good pricing deal with
Verizon which they botched up by not meeting the agreed upon timelines.

~~~
jasonlotito
> Remember the original iPhone's 600$ price tag?

Yeah, it's still that high.

> MS supposedly got a very good pricing deal with Verizon

For the market, no. It was pretty clear when the product came out the pricing
for the market it was going after was still too high.

------
punchfire
he's wrong, there you go: [http://pocketnow.com/rumor/actually-kin-sold-more-
than-503-d...](http://pocketnow.com/rumor/actually-kin-sold-more-
than-503-devices)

------
illumin8
This is most definitely false. Verizon was giving them away for free with a
contract just to get rid of them, so I'm sure they got rid of more than 503.

------
borisk
Microsoft Bob 2.0 :D

With only 503 sold, it's almost a limited edition. I thought about getting
one, but Ebay auctions for contractless Kins end over $150

------
vidar
Maybe they will become collectors items... but probably not given Microsofts
ineptitude.

------
jasonlotito
Where did the idea come from that the Kin was supposed to fight agains the
iPhone? The product was good. The target audience is there, even still, but
the pricing is where the problem was.

But no, it wasn't going after the same market the iPhone is.

~~~
josefresco
The Kin was going after the iPod Touch crowd otherwise known as the iPhone
minor-leagues. MS figured there were enough folks who needed the phone but not
quite the full smartphone experience. Too bad it required a smartphone data
plan at full price.

~~~
jarek
> MS figured there were enough folks who needed the phone but not quite the
> full smartphone experience.

Yes...

> The Kin was going after the iPod Touch crowd

... but that's not the iPod Touch crowd.

~~~
hapless
I've run into a lot of children and teenagers who own an iPod Touch. It's much
easier to get parental funding/permission for a one-time cost than $30-50
month changes to the family phone bill.

~~~
jarek
But, again, those are not the Sidekick-user type of users Microsoft was going
for.

------
credo
why not provide the source [http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-rank-and-
file-felt-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-rank-and-file-felt-
embarassment-all-over-campus-from-kin-failure-2010-7)

Clearly Kin was a big flop, but the "only 503" sold claim lacks credibility.

[edit] I see that I was mistaken on Gruber's source, thanks for the correction
AlanH. (of course, I still think that the "503" claim doesn't have much
credibility)

~~~
alanh
That isn’t the source, Credo. Gruber claims a source told him directly, on the
HN submission's link.

~~~
kenjackson
Gruber's sources have been wrong before, at least one time I recall somewhat
recently. I wouldn't put much stock in it.

------
antidaily
Apparently Passion Pit played the release party.

~~~
tiles
It was upon actually seeing the phone, that they got the inspiration to write
a song called "The Reeling".

------
reader5000
They marketed it as a way to keep tabs on "your people" 24/7. Not sure that
many people are that hyper-social, no matter how hip.

------
MaysonL
I do wonder how many they made, and what will happen to them. Landfill,
recycling, or remaindered?

~~~
Encosia
They seem to still be trying to sell what's left. I heard a Kin ad on the
radio yesterday and saw the ex-girlfriend ad on Hulu at some point this week.

I guess the discontinuation doesn't really matter to most users, as long as MS
keeps the Kin Studio site running (which I believe they are).

------
ANINDIAN
this statement proved Gruber is an Complete Idiot of first order if he even
cites 503 to be sales number.

\+ ppl who comment without pointing this out are complete idiots as well

