
Video Shows Starving Polar Bear on Iceless Land - brakmic
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/polar-bear-starving-arctic-sea-ice-melt-climate-change-spd/
======
eemax
Individual animals in the wild die cruel, slow, painful deaths all the time,
regardless of whether their species as a whole is thriving or not.

So while this video might evoke a strong emotional response, it is just an
anecdote and not actually evidence one way or the other for human-caused
climate change.

Of course, human-caused climate change is obviously real, but it's not OK to
use bad arguments even if your conclusion is correct.

EDIT: To clarify further, I am not disputing that polar bears are not being
harmed by climate change, or even that the particular bear in the video is not
starving because of climate change. I am merely pointing out that one could
produce a video of a starving polar bear both in our world and in the world
where climate change is not happening, because wild animals starve all the
time.

~~~
ritchiea
We need to use whatever arguments are effective to steer people and
governments to good policy as long as we know those arguments are supporting a
cause that is scientifically backed. Some people don't get and don't want to
get scientific evidence. If there is a plausible causal chain from global
climate change to that suffering polar bear we should be using that polar bear
to convince people climate change is real and bad. Most people don't have the
patience for or interest in scientific arguments and we have to convince most
people that this is a problem not just hacker news.

~~~
chrischen
That’s called propoganda. You advocate using propoganda to justify a cause you
have predetermined to be scientifically backed. Why not just use the
scientific backing directly?

~~~
ccalvert
Those who understand Climate Change and love science should not cede the
ground to those who disagree with them without a fight.

Most people don't understand science at the same level as many of the
participants in HN. They are not bad people, and they are not necessarily
ignorant people. But they don't base their decision-making process on
scientific principles. Someone needs to reach out to these people and help
them understand the world we live in.

Ten minutes on Fox News and similar sites should convince anyone that Climate
Change deniers understand how to influence people and do all they can to
advocate for those who profit from policies that harm our world. We have to
use the available tools to counter their arguments.

~~~
chrischen
You’re denying the people of their right to be treated as an intellectual
equal.

If they don’t understand it is their loss. You can bet against them in the
capitalist system. Sell them houses near coastlines. If they’re truly ignorant
and you are in fact backed by science and facts, then you can profit off of
them.

But if you can justify doing this for people you consider not worthy of the
facts because they probably can’t understand it, then you can justify it with
anyone.

This is the same rationale for why the FBI or law enforcement want more power.
People don’t understand that thy are the _GOOD_ guys and they won’t abuse
their power.

If the good guys—the people backed by science in this case—lose their
accountability to actual science by being good at propoganda and manipulation,
why even bother with science? They’ll become bad guys soon enough when they
finally realize the facts never mattered.

When propoganda is spewed from both sides the only way to tell is to have
facts based on reality that people can independently verify. That’s the whole
point of backed by science. If you deny people the option to independently
verify then you deny them the ability to find out who’s right and who’s wrong.
At that point are you any different from the bad guys?

------
000000000000001
The changing climate conditions are going to wreak havoc on countless species
in the coming century.

The only question is would we be ready when things start rolling faster than
we could control?

~~~
brakmic
If the richest and most powerful countries say "there is no climate change"
and "others want to destroy our economy", then the answer is a pessimistic
one. The same applies to countries that say "yes, there is a climate change
and we must do something", but in the end avoid doing anything to unwind the
death spiral.

~~~
ant6n
Most rich countries acknowledge climate change and try to come up with
solutions. The big outlier is the US.

~~~
noir_lord
> Most rich countries acknowledge climate change and try to come up with
> solutions. The big outlier is the US.

You could generalise that to:-

Most rich countries acknowledge <foo is a problem> and try to come up with
solutions. The big outlier is the US.

Where <foo> is healthcare, corporate governance, lobbying, women's rights,
racism, income equality, prison incarceration rates, police brutality.

Growing up in the UK in the 80's I was fascinated by America and planned on
one day visiting if not living there.

Now? If I leave the UK (and I probably will) it'll likely be Germany or
Holland, they aren't perfect (what is?) but they look a lot better than the
US/UK these days.

~~~
Jill_the_Pill
The problem is: if you remove yourself, it's still going on back home. It's
probably better to stay where you have some power to try to change it for
everyone's good, particularly when foo is something like climate that affects
the whole world. (or that's what I tell myself when Canada beckons)

~~~
noir_lord
Maybe but then on the flip side in my country we've had a decade of things
getting progressively worse up to and including the massively pointless,
expensive and dangerous Brexit.

I'm pretty tired of it to be honest, I don't recognise this country any more.

------
freech
Maybe you'd prefer watching a polar bear eat a seal alive?

~~~
moocowtruck
yea no kiddin seals are probably in favor of climate change

~~~
lovelearning
Doubt it.

[1]:
[https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/01/120106-harp...](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/01/120106-harp-
seals-global-warming-sea-ice-science-environment/)

~~~
moocowtruck
that poor lil guy :( who likes cats when you got these

------
thomasfl
The world needs more SolarCoin and less Crypto Kitties
[https://cleantechnica.com/2017/06/29/solarcoin-
cryptocurrenc...](https://cleantechnica.com/2017/06/29/solarcoin-
cryptocurrency-earned-generating-solar-electricity/)

~~~
rebuilder
Solarcoin issuance appears to be centralized and controlled by the SolarCoin
foundation. I'd stay well away.

------
sparkzilla
Polar Bear populations are not declining. Also, the plural of anecdote is not
data. [https://polarbearscience.com/2017/02/15/baffin-bay-and-
kane-...](https://polarbearscience.com/2017/02/15/baffin-bay-and-kane-basin-
polar-bears-not-declining-concludes-new-report/)

~~~
perbu
Observed polar bear populations are not declining. However, since there is far
less ice the polar bear are much easier to find these days, making the counts
go up, rather than down. This has been the case in Svalbard, at least.

~~~
superb_herb
And there I was thinking Svalbard was only a made up island for the Bear
Kingdom in Philip Pullman's _His Dark Materials_ trilogy...

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jhiska
"Heart-wrenching" doesn't convince minds in Hacker News.

~~~
fulafel
Did you ever spring to action after intensely experiencing something you were
already factually aware of? I think climate denialism is not a big problem on
HN, but apathy and priorities are.

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jordache
maybe the bear is diseased?

~~~
jackhack
But that breaks the value of this finely-crafted propaganda and won't help the
cause, brother. You can't question the Official Narrative(tm). Now off to the
re-education camp with you!

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DavidTNcl
Propaganda

------
jamesmccann
Meanwhile, we out here obsessing about making money on BTC...

~~~
chinathrow
There are folks who on purpose do not participate in BTC because they know the
energy consumption is wrong. Go tell people about it and they might get it.

~~~
knownothing
And they make their snide observations from where? That's right, their
computers. How much energy is spent consuming and deliving Facebook? Or iOS
games?

~~~
chinathrow
There is indeed a lot of engery spent elsewhere - your comment is pure
whataboutism though.

A single Bitcoin transaction currently use as much engery as energy spent in a
single home for days.

------
tim333
While it's sad that the bear died it's a bit of a jump to link it to global
warming.

~~~
PostOnce
The article is mostly about global warming and contains a wealth of citations
/ references / relevant links.

They provided their evidence as to why it's not a jump to link it to global
warming -- where is your evidence that it is, in fact, a jump?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
The polar bear situation really doesn't look like good evidence to me, they
state the bear's lameness is assumed to be due to starvation-based atrophy but
it seems as likely that this is just an injured bear that can't hunt
effectively.

I'm certainly not denying climate change is wiping out polar bears, just that
this shows good evidence of that.

The article states bears starve through summer until sea ice forms on which
they catch seals .. but the image is from Summer, when the sea ice presumably
is yet to form. I guess it could be cumulative from the previous Summer being
too warm; again it's not good, clear evidence as it's presented.

Could someone answer where the seals go? I'd have expected if they weren't
resting/mating on sea-ice that they'd rest on land and actually be easier to
catch? Do they instead stay at sea?

~~~
chr1
In the winter seals have to use holes in the ice to breath, which makes them
very vulnerable. Without ice it is much more difficult for bears to catch
them. [http://www.athropolis.com/arctic-facts/fact-seal-
breathing.h...](http://www.athropolis.com/arctic-facts/fact-seal-
breathing.htm)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Yes, but it's the late Summer period I'm asking about, can the bears not feed
at all until the sea is completely frozen over?

