
Ex-CIA Officer Suspected of Compromising Chinese Informants Is Arrested - ryanlol
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/us/politics/cia-china-mole-arrest-jerry-chun-shing-lee.html
======
Gustomaximus
I'm amazed a naturalised citizen would be given so much information access.
There must be significantly higher risk of naturalised citizens having loyalty
to their former country or ties that can be used to manipulate them. And while
these people must be valuable for their insight it seems amazing he would not
be kept in more of an information bubble.

Almost everything I read abut the CIA seems incompetent to some level. I know
they use that line 'you only hear about our failures' but things where you see
a large proportion of their actions (successful or not) like all the coups, it
seems there is no oversight to quality of their work and I'm guessing decision
makers are selected on confidence and ego rather than ability.

I genuinely wonder if the world would be a better place, if they were scaled
back and reorganised to purely focus on their primary purpose only of being
intelligence source only for the president and other elected policy makers.

~~~
outworlder
What I am amazed at is that a naturalized citizen would run the citizenship
gauntlet, actually become a citizen, and then go and betray the country they
presumably worked for.

On the other hand, there's no effort or merit in being born at a particular
geographical location.

~~~
indubitable
The funny thing is I would have agreed with you before I ended up in a
position where such choices have meaning. I, and I suspect yourself, have
never been in the least patriotic or nationalistic and always held things like
'support the home team' with disdain since, as you said, why should I
particularly care if something happens to occur in the same general geographic
location where I happened to be?

I've spent a good deal of my life traveling away from US borders, and I'm far
from pleased about the current direction of the US - and I've never been what
you'd consider patriotic or nationalistic. Nonetheless, I somehow have a very
different feeling towards the US than I do to any of the countries I've
visited - even ones where I could now obtain citizenship if I so desired.

I think country forms a bond much like family. And much like with family, many
of us never even recognize that bond until you're far removed from it. By
contrast, I've very much enjoyed my travels but I hold no allegiance to any of
these countries - even ones I've resided in for years. I can't really explain
it, since I never thought I'd feel this way. I suppose what I'm getting at is
that you can't really judge, or predict, people until you've walked a decade
in their shoes.

~~~
UnhelpfulYoda
Reminds me of the contrast between SF and LA. After living in SF for a year,
all of a sudden, driving down Market Street, I had this overwhelming sense
that I was home now.

Lived in LA for a lot longer, loved the weather, but never got that feeling
that I was home. My thoughts were that this is temporary, and I'm just here to
make make money and leave.

------
rdtsc
This combined with the OPM hack should make us very worried about China. The
OPM hack is probably the single most damaging hack to the US intelligence
community. CIA info was safe from what I understood, except maybe those who
switched agencies. However this individual leaked a large number of CIA
agents, that added on top puts China at a tremendous advantage.

~~~
nihonde
It’s far more dire than some spy agency slapfighting. Look at the other
headline today about proud, patriotic Americans kow-towing to Foxconn for the
political sleight of hand of a few jobs. And yet another headline is about
court martialing top brass in the US Navy because the “world police” can’t
navigate peacetime waters in Asia without causing fatalities. Meanwhile, a new
class of Chinese nuke sub is spotted openly flying a Chinese flag off the
Senkaku islands in brazen defiance of the American protection racket in Asia.
No one will be more pleased than Okinawa to see their supposed protectors go
away. They’ve been hostages since before WWII. Japan is getting squeezed from
the North by Russia. Indonesia is openly talking about joining China’s team.
African kids are learning Chinese in school. And in Hawaii, the sloppy, lazy
ineptitude and panicky fear-mongering are on full display.

Who in their right mind would trust such people as stewards of the world’s
largest nuclear arsenal?

The game is up, but no one in America seems to know it yet. Those who are
paying attention are just hoping America doesn’t take everyone else down with
them.

~~~
IBM
American Declinism has been a popular meme since the 50s, some day it will be
true I guess [1]:

>Twenty-two years ago, in a refreshingly clear-sighted article for Foreign
Affairs, Harvard’s Samuel P. Huntington noted that the theme of "America’s
decline" had in fact been a constant in American culture and politics since at
least the late 1950s. It had come, he wrote, in several distinct waves: in
reaction to the Soviet Union’s launch of Sputnik; to the Vietnam War; to the
oil shock of 1973; to Soviet aggression in the late 1970s; and to the general
unease that accompanied the end of the Cold War. Since Huntington wrote, we
can add at least two more waves: in reaction to 9/11, and to the current
"Great Recession."….

>What the long history of American "declinism" — as opposed to America’s
actual possible decline — suggests is that these anxieties have an existence
of their own that is quite distinct from the actual geopolitical position of
our country; that they arise as much from something deeply rooted in the
collective psyche of our chattering classes as from sober political and
economic analyses.

>For whatever reason, it is clear that for more than half a century, many of
America’s leading commentators have had a powerful impulse consistently to see
the United States as a weak, "bred out" basket case that will fall to stronger
rivals as inevitably as Rome fell to the barbarians, or France to Henry V at
Agincourt.

[1] [https://newrepublic.com/article/78216/america-in-decline-
tho...](https://newrepublic.com/article/78216/america-in-decline-thomas-
friedman)

~~~
nl
This is true, and I'm old enough to _just_ remember the "inevitability" of
Japan taking over the world at the end of the 1980s and start of the 1990s.
Ooops.

But this time.. .hmm.

When the former (conservative) deputy prime minster of Australia says:

 _THE 16-month delay in the United States posting an ambassador to Canberra is
a sign that Australia has been “downgraded”, says former deputy prime minister
Tim Fischer._ [1]

and

 _The United States has been without an ambassador in Australia since
September 2016 and Mr Fischer said the long wait was now "beyond acceptable"
and bordering on a "diplomatic insult"._[2]

it's hard not to think that the US is withdrawing from the world. Plus, of
course the US President explicitly says that.

One might argue about the word "decline", but the US isn't the leader it once
was.

[1] [http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/tim-fischer-says-
us...](http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/tim-fischer-says-us-has-
downgraded-australia-by-not-appointing-american-ambassador/news-
story/1962de55e09b7da82be7254128a2ffb2)

[2] [http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-03/tim-fischer-
criticises...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-03/tim-fischer-criticises-
trump-administration/9300920)

~~~
tonmoy
That just may be the current administration’s specific policies, the next one
could very well be different.

~~~
DrScump
This vacancy stems from the prior administration.

~~~
CobrastanJorji
I think not a new ambassador when there are only 3 months left in your term as
President and all of your appointees are being stonewalled in Congress is
fairly reasonable. Not appointing an ambassador at all in your first year of
office is less reasonable.

------
c3534l
If you're living in Hong Kong and you've been paid to oust US spies, why on
Earth would you ever set foot in America again? Especially after you've
already been investigated by the FBI for what you were doing.

~~~
throwwwwaway9
Money, it says he was offered a CIA contract, apparently many retired agents
work as independent contractors after retiring. His mistake was not asking for
FU money from China, considering the great service he performed. It's not
China doesn't have the money

------
jjcc
May I have a pure theoretical argument about high order spying based on a
naive moral principle, i.e. Treat the others the way you like to be treated.

1.I don't like to be spied. So I don't spy anybody not spying on me. First
order spy is not good. Don't do it.

2.If I found I'm spied by a notorious group(Maybe CIA), then I have to find
out how I'm spied. I'll use spy method which the other group is using,
bribery, steal etc. to get the information of the informant stealing my
secret. Because this spying is high order spying, i.e. spy on spy, then it is
justified.

Does that make sense?

~~~
toyg
It makes sense but it’s naive, you’ve basically tied an arm behind your back
before going into the savagest fight of your life. Information is the
lifeblood of policy, so you want as much as possible, all the time, regardless
of how it’s gathered. You can make exceptions towards your citizens because of
some high ideal (or more prosaic needs for social peace), but everyone else is
a natural target and fair game. Even allies spy on each other, just a bit less
because there is often no need (information will be willingly provided).

This is why we need supranational orgs (UN, WTO etc): because foreign
relationships, left to their natural state, are a lawless Far West.

------
znfi
One thing I find rather odd is how noone raises an eyebrow that apparently the
US happily admitts to having some enormous spy network in China.

It is especially puzzeling if one compares it with the reaction to foreign
countries supposedly making posts or buying ads on Facebook or Youtube with
the intent of influencing elections in the US.

~~~
nitwit005
There is a big difference between gathering information and active sabotage.
Even allies tend to spy on each other somewhat.

~~~
tobtoh
Are you saying you believe the US spy network (in China, or in general) is
only for gathering information?

------
propman
Life in prison. If it risks the lives and sometimes costs the lives of
Americans performing a highly dangerous mission for America, I support life in
prison even if the name of just 1 informant is given

~~~
saagarjha
It's interesting that you've mentioned "America" twice in this sentence. What
are your thoughts on this if it was another country?

~~~
QAPereo
Is it really news to you that life, politics, and international relations have
tribal and competitive aspects to them? You can be superrational, but that
will cause you to lose horribly to the rest of the players. Unless you believe
that China would be especially magnanimous in reversed circumstances, what is
your point?

~~~
beisner
Being superrational would allow you to predict the irrationality of the
irrationality of other players, and update your strategy accordingly.

------
rdl
People complain about racism whenever ethnically Chinese or in this case a
naturalized Chinese citizen within the IC is subjected to extra security
scrutiny, but China has a very effective intelligence program taking advantage
of these people, and is very aggressive at pursuing espionage against the US.
This is probably not sustainable.

~~~
tptacek
There are 4.8 million Chinese-Americans in the United States. The last time we
publicly charged one of them with espionage, the judge ended up publicly
apologizing to them and the government cut a $1.8MM settlement. People
complain about racism when arguments are rooted in racism.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Not to mention the American resident we falsely accused of being a communist
and then basically forced back to China to kickstart their rocket and nuclear
programs:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen)

~~~
shams93
Yup he worked with Jack Parsons, the entire original crew of rocket scientists
we're driven out and Jack Parsons was on his way to Israel when he
"accidentally" died in the middle of moving. One if the other engineers moved
to France and became a famous french visual artist. The Chinese member of the
team was thrown out for completely racist reasons and went on to found the
Chinese nuclear missile program. The social cost of racism is so immense it's
mind boggling. Without racism neither NK nor China would have nukes. I'm

~~~
galuggus
Didn't the pioneers of rocket science come from nazi Germany?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Some, not all. The German scientists definitely gave us a huge boost,
unfortunately Russia got most of the technicians.

------
Top19
For reference, they’re saying it’s worse than anything that occurred during
the Cold War in terms of informants lost/killed, including more than lost via
Aldrich Ames (he was eventually arrested in 1994).

------
UnhelpfulYoda
I always suspected that the Obama Administration DOJ 'discrimination' lawsuit
against Palintir had ulterior motives.

A company which employees close to 40% Asians. I suspect someone's
infiltration project went awry. "How could they possibly reject these
candidates whose resume's we carefully tailored to be hired... Must be
discrimination."

\---

Shadowy Data-Mining Firm Palantir Hit With Discrimination Suit Palantir is
accused by the Department of Labor of discriminating against Asian job
applicant

[https://www.pcmag.com/news/348234/shadowy-data-mining-
firm-p...](https://www.pcmag.com/news/348234/shadowy-data-mining-firm-
palantir-hit-with-discrimination-su)

Obama Admin Sues CIA-Funded Counter-Espionaged Firm Palantir for Only Hiring
44% Asians

[http://www.unz.com/isteve/obama-admin-sues-cia-funded-
palant...](http://www.unz.com/isteve/obama-admin-sues-cia-funded-palantir-for-
only-hiring-44-asians/)

The whole thing sounded absurd from the beginning. Do Asians even suffer
discrimination in the United States? Honestly, the only organizations I know
of actively discriminating against Asians, are Ivy League Universities.

~~~
Clanan
> The whole thing sounded absurd from the beginning. Do Asians even suffer
> discrimination in the United States? Honestly, the only organizations I know
> of actively discriminating against Asians, are Ivy League Universities.

That's... sort of a huge amount of discrimination.

~~~
ythn
Well, somehow we've decided "positive discrimination" aka "affirmative action"
is a "good" form of discrimination, otherwise there would be less diversity
(which would be "bad")

~~~
UnhelpfulYoda
I agree with both of you, so it's interesting Obama DOJ chose to tackle this
'discrimination' vs the kind they enable in our Universities.

------
ryanlol
(Apparently) previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14385359](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14385359)

