
DNA Is a Fractal Antenna in Electromagnetic Fields (2011) - Cieplak
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21457072
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fromthestart
So the authors observed increased markers of damage after exposing DNA to a
range of non ionizing EM frequencies.

Are the authors implying that even non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation can
damage DNA because of resonance accross a wide range of frequencies? Is there
truth to danger from cell phones?

~~~
LeoPanthera
That is certainly a popular conspiracy theory.

It’s hard to believe, though. Cellphones have been around for a generation.
The early ones had higher output power than modern ones. If there was any risk
of harm, we would see it by now.

~~~
Tharkun
> If there was any risk of harm, we would see it by now

That statement feels a little problematic to me. Who's to say that possible
effects aren't cumulative, maybe more exposure time is needed for big problems
to appear, and maybe it's been contributing to smaller problems so far. Truth
is, we don't really know enough to say that for sure.

Think asbestos and mesothelioma. The onset of that can be _forty years_ after
exposure to asbestos. That's roughly two generations. And a one off event can
be enough.

~~~
bsder
> Think asbestos and mesothelioma. The onset of that can be forty years after
> exposure to asbestos. That's roughly two generations. And a one off event
> can be enough.

Except that mesothelioma _can_ onset at 15 years and is less rare at 25. And
it is one of the longest because of the particular mechanism of encapsulation
and migration. DNA disruption has no such reason to be slow.

There are almost always _some_ people with a fast response to a biologically
active agent. DNA damage would almost certainly show up quite quickly in some
subgroup.

While you can't prove a negative, absence of evidence certainly moves the
Bayesian priors.

~~~
smallnamespace
Mesothelioma has a specific and distinctive set of symptoms, so people took
notice and look for a root cause.

Hypothetically, _if_ EMF radiation were to cause a wide range of low-level
effects such that common diseases had increasing prevalence rates over time,
how would we be able to link that back? Cell towers are ubiquitous, there's no
non-exposed control group that epidemiologists can easily compare to.

~~~
ryacko
The Amish. Their water and soil is no less contaminated by other factors, so
the only thing left is far reduced EMF exposure.

~~~
mmmeff
Nah, most amish communities are surrounded by normal folks and have pretty
good cell coverage. A better control group would be communities around radio
telescopes where cell towers can't be built for fear of interference with
research.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Radio_Q...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Radio_Quiet_Zone)

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jayalpha
This is old news. Electromagnetic waves have all kind of effects on cells.
There is also a ton of very old literature out there (also, quite a bunch from
China). Stuff like this and older:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3729999](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3729999)

In fact, a former friend had some good ideas regarding this and I wrote a
patent for a start-up but then he pussied out.

~~~
exikyut
What were the ideas behind the start-up? Very fascinated/curious

~~~
jayalpha
This is long time ago. I may not be bound by any NDA but I am still bound by
my word. But I am sure any guy with a biotech background would get some ideas.

The main specific ("high value") target would not be of so much interest
anymore today since this problem has been solved.

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ageofwant
This idea is a plot device in Greg Bear's 'Darwin's Radio'. Good yarn and it
dates OK.

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/64923.Darwin_s_Radio](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/64923.Darwin_s_Radio)

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adamnemecek
What’s up with light having a helical shape and dna as well?

~~~
achillesheels
A shot in the dark: it’s characteristic of a complex exponential function ergo
the trigonometrical nature of waveforms in time. (Euler’s Formula and all that
Jazz)

I am inclined to think of both as communication signals.

~~~
adamnemecek
I believe that that is the case, yes.

A helix is a quaternion.

~~~
starbeast
>A helix is a quaternion.

Thanks for that observation. You have given me yet another way to look at
quaternions. If you take the axis vector and the rotation and consider them
combined, yep, is a helix.

~~~
adamnemecek
Yup. They are quite a beast. The next step is dual quaternions which
correspond to screws.

~~~
starbeast
In that case, I could really do with a dual quaternion.

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rs86
It's very obvious why it works like an antenna. It is unlikely that it should
not

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sifoobar
I used to have no issues at all with EMF; not that I was very healthy, but I
didn't feel any effects. Then I stopped entirely for six months while I lived
in an ashram out in nowhere doing Yoga all day.

And sure enough, after coming back I could barely do 10 minutes with my laptop
on a wireless network before feeling sick for hours. These days, I don't even
use a cell phone unless I absolutely have to; and I only use wired technology
at home. Working in an office or spending a lot of time in cities is not even
on the radar.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I see people raving about their
AirPods online, walking around all day with wireless antennas in your ears
looks like suicide from here.

So; there goes the karma, I guess. I am painfully aware this is not a very
popular perspective, but it's my authentic experience and this is my Internet
as much as anyone else's.

Edit: See, I told you. Keep chasing your tails then, I don't care. It's
evolution in action.

~~~
jodrellblank
Did you do anything to confirm it was EMF/Wifi?

Like moving further away because E/M strength falls off with the square of the
distance.

Perhaps your laptop screen has developed a flicker, which gives you a headache
from long use? Perhaps your eyesight or room lighting has changed so the
contrast now strains your eyes?

Perhaps your study room now has a bunch of cars parking outside, and is
filling with fumes, or there's a gas leak in your house, or a bit of
heating/melting plastic somewhere releasing fumes?

Perhaps you're returning with a lot of apprehension, and getting a bunch of
stress just sitting down to rejoin "work" and getting a lot of stress-related
muscle / skeletal tension and gut upset? Perhaps it's a correlation - you make
coffee and sit down to work, but it's the coffee you're not adjusted to
anymore?

The world is an electric place - homes run mains electric cables all around,
the atmosphere is filled with radio and TV and satellite transmissions, things
like streetlights are quite electrically noisy, neighbours with wifi is
common. A "good" signal strength might be in the region of -30 to -65dbm, or
0.000001 Watts to 0.0000000003 Watts at the receiver. Compare that one way
with a 1KW electric heater - this is a lot weaker. Compare it another way to
the way you can turn a radio or TV on and pick up strong signals which are
always around and going through you - but I have no idea how the signal
strength compares.

~~~
loceng
I appreciate your analysis. To contrast this, simply to bring everything into
a larger perspective: we developed in a natural world without all of this
electrical pollution. And as your questions suggest, it is very difficult to
pinpoint what any one cause may be, including what state of health a person is
currently in - and whether that is perhaps making them hypersensitive,
likewise it could be a 'skill' or sensitivity they developed and can feel only
in specific contexts which would further make testing it difficult.

~~~
starbeast
>we developed in a natural world without all of this electrical pollution.

That big glowy thing in the sky might disagree.

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loceng
It's clear that people's understanding of EMFs is low overall based on
comments like this - where the presence of the sun and other natural levels of
EMFs that make it through our atmosphere at different quantities, at different
times, etc is being compared as equal to say electrical power lines,
screens/monitors, CPUs, etc; it's naive.

~~~
starbeast
Do you think that there is something qualitatively different between
electromagnetic fields based on whether the source is produced by humans? Of
course they can be directly compared, the field doesn't give a shit what made
it.

~~~
loceng
There are lots of factors that make it different. The most all-or-nothing
version of it would be to realize biologic material will burn up if you're
right next to the sun, and you won't be impact by the sun "at all" if you're
in a lead container that's thick enough (a faraday cage blocking EMFs).

