
How Nextdoor courts police and public officials - SamWhited
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2020/05/nextdoor-local-partnerships-police-government-privacy-app/611827/
======
blakesterz
Nextdoor seems to be one of those sites that divide people, especially here.
I'm more or less on the fence with this one. It seems decent enough in my
neighborhood. Just this week it was the only place I could look to find out
what exploded in the middle of the night (It was a transformer). The posts and
comments tend to be pretty decent, usually. We seem to be avoiding the things
that seem to be a problem in other areas, at least so far. Like the article
says "Nextdoor has also been a hotbed of racial profiling and tattling." and
I've not seen much of that here.

If anything this article says "Nextdoor is doing the same thing as every other
company", which doesn't make me less likely to use the site from time to time.

I do agree with it though... “You want a police officer who has the best
interests of their specific community at heart. You don’t want a police
officer who’s brand loyal.”

~~~
briffle
We had a pretty epic one about someone posting about a very, very suspicious
white car going around the neighborhood at 3:30 am, pulling up to houses, etc.
A long list of comments about how everything is going to hell, things aren't
like they used to be, this is why you should buy a gun, blaming the local
officials and political party, etc. Finally, a post:

Hi Tom, that white car is mine. I have delivered your newspaper every day for
the last 5 years with it.

~~~
mc32
I think that is an exception. Most of what I see is heads up about people
casing houses and testing car doors, usually with a short video demonstrating
and backing up the claims. It’s also helped with youth vandalism.

~~~
nemo
I don't think that we can judge whether that's an exception without going
through a lot of data, esp. since different neighborhoods aren't likely to be
at all consistent, esp with age and regional differences. I used to see a lot
of cases of old racist neighbors jumping to conclusions or confabulating a
bigoted story from a few inconclusive pieces of evidence that mostly amounted
to "a black person is present in our neighborhood so they're probably a
criminal." I don't look at NextDoor anymore.

------
everybodyknows
>they’d stay at the Hilton Union Square, eat and drink at Cultivar, share a
tour of Chinatown, and receive matching Uniqlo jackets. All costs — a
projected $16,900 for the group,

> “We look to you as influencers in your industry,”

So, turn local cops into part-time salespeople for Nextdoor, and its
advertising clients. What could go wrong?

~~~
Spooky23
That’s gross.

When I was a public employee traveling and interacting with external entities,
our ethics rules prohibited us from accepting token gifts/swag valued >$5 or
alcohol. Bottle of water at a meeting was ok, pen was ok, a beer was not, a
Starbucks was questionable.

Accepting a jacket would be serious — potentially a referral to the IG and
potential civil fine or criminal prosecution.

The public perception of a police official walking around with branded swag of
significant value is pretty obvious.

~~~
kop316
That's what I was thinking too. Accepting gifts like that is one of the few
things that could get a federal employee fired (among other things) very
quickly. It is self and peer policed very heavily.

~~~
C1sc0cat
Most cops are not federal employees its very devolved in the USA with no
common standards for training background checks and so on.

~~~
kop316
Usually state laws exist for the same thing. This was Arizona?

[https://www.stateandfed.com/docs/Gifts/az_GiftLaw.pdf](https://www.stateandfed.com/docs/Gifts/az_GiftLaw.pdf)

[https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azle...](https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/38/00504.htm)

I think these would apply.

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zadkey
I kept seeing a lot posts on Nextdoor from people who don't realize they are
racist.

An example post on was where someone was complaining about a strange black man
walking through their neighborhood.

Of course when you read the post carefully you would then come to realize,
that this man was walking down the sidewalk, during the day, not bothering or
talking to anyone, just minding his own business.

The reality is there was nothing particularly strange about this black man.
Nothing in her description explains what he did that made him strange. She
likely just finds it strange that a black man is walking through their
neighborhood.

The other thing is these kinds of posts would always be followed up with
someone along the lines of "keep an eye out for him" or "don't let him near
your kids" or "call the police if you see him again" or that kind of fear-
mongering nonsense.

I was honestly downright surprised how racist some of these people are.

~~~
andrewljohnson
Where do you live? This was also my experience moving to Spring, TX (a suburb
of Houston), which I'm now leaving because of this type of attitude, among
other things.

It's not just NextDoor, many areas are on average racist and insular. One time
I was strolling my baby, and there was a group of well-dressed, but wrongly
colored, people (men, women, and children!) walking down the street. A woman
pulled over in her shiny car to ask me if I knew these people, and I walked on
and ignored her question. When I looked back, she had pulled over and was on
her cellphone.

~~~
zadkey
I won't give the exact city, but let's say in the DFW area.

~~~
andrewljohnson
Maybe Texas is the problem and not NextDoor :)

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danso
As reported, it seems that Nextdoor has a non-disclosure agreement that –
without determined legal pushback – all but guarantees a chilling effect on
how gov't agencies respond to public records requests, including when Nextdoor
data is used to tip police investigations:

> _In the terms of Nextdoor’s NDA, advisory council members are not allowed to
> release public statements about the partnership without the consent of
> Nextdoor, nor are they able to follow a court order to disclose any
> information deemed confidential by Nextdoor without alerting the company
> first. The document is the same one it gives to all business partners, the
> company said, and is meant to protect confidential information like product
> ideas._

> _...Though there are few rules prohibiting them from signing such a
> document, the practice could help shroud government decisions from the
> public, says Guariglia from the Electronic Frontier Foundation. And the
> NDA’s “heads-up” clause could give agencies the leeway to alert the company
> before complying with freedom of information act requests._

> _After CityLab requested public records from Husted’s department, he alerted
> Nextdoor spokesperson Edie Campbell-Urban, though he said that he wasn’t
> doing so because of any terms of the NDA. When CityLab requested similar
> records from Kagarise, the county’s Office of Risk Management services
> informed CityLab that it was delaying its answer, in part because they were
> busy dealing with Covid-19. They said they would also be informing Nextdoor
> Inc. of the public records request, pursuant to a state law protecting third
> parties from information “not in the public interest” that would
> “substantially and irreparably damage” the third party or the government._

------
12xo
This company is far more dangerous than FB. They masquerade as a public
service but are nothing more than a data mining trick to cull PII from as many
as possible. I have read it described as Twitter for old people, but to me,
its where the dumbest and the most gullible seem to hang. Its really a site
for 'Karen's' to whine and complain about the most asinine things... But its
their underlying business model that is atrocious. IMHO its the worst social
media outlet around.

~~~
mc32
No doubt it’s a data vacuuming powerhouse. Likely on the level of Facebook...
but they are not only about complainers. It’s like a town square. You get a
heads up to what’s going on. Changes, news, public issues, etc. it’s useful
but with some drawbacks.

~~~
12xo
My problem isnt the community, its the way they trick people into signing up
and how they then collect and sell the data.

Many people actually think ND is a public service. And this article is a big
reason as to why that is... IMHO we should not have these types of entities in
bed with local municipalities as it erodes both the public's trust and also
undermines the sanctity of government.

~~~
beeskneecaps
It’s worth reading the privacy policy: [https://legal.nextdoor.com/us-privacy-
policy-2020/](https://legal.nextdoor.com/us-privacy-policy-2020/) Not seeing
any PII disclosure.

~~~
12xo
They collect and require your name and your actual home address (and they
verify these) all as part of their required registration. What could be more
PII than that? Seriously. What?

~~~
beeskneecaps
Right that makes sense that you need your name and address to verify. I’m not
seeing the part where they sell that. That’s what I meant by “disclosure”.
Sorry for the confusion.

~~~
12xo
My guess is that the TOS and PP are separated and offer different levels of
disclosure based on "use"... For instance, going to ND.com is PP, using the
service you agree to X,Y,Z...

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crsv
Nextdoor is quickly becoming a detestable social network experience. I've
noticed that over the last year or so, it's almost exclusively negativity or
fear based in its content. Most posts are either people complaining or
tattling on something that is a minor nuisance at best or fear mongering for
larger issues. I've seen very, very limited positive benefit from the
platform. It strikes me as something that had great potential, but is just
turning in to a cesspool as it grows.

~~~
beeskneecaps
What are some of the things that you are hoping to see going on in your
neighborhood?

~~~
crsv
Information seeking, curiosity, chances to share in experience, people seeking
help, people offering help, fellowship.

~~~
jpindar
I see those on my Nextdoor everyday.

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mark_l_watson
Signed up for Nextdoor, but the noise level was not good. I muted everyone but
our local Chief of Police.

Ideally, local officials would have their own email list but then there is a
discoverability problem.

It is not that I hate Nextdoor, but I put effort into eliminating
interruptions and noise in my life so I can concentrate on the people and
things I love.

The attention (and surveillance) economy makes a lot of money via non-obvious
data use.

------
drdeadringer
> in calmer times, Nextdoor has also been a hotbed of racial profiling and
> tattling.

I've seen this on NextDoor myself. The most innocent Nosy Nancy post I saw was
along the lines of: "Observed teenagers walking eastbound with backpacks.
Suspicious. Took note, will call police." We live near a school. It was
closing time. They were walking home. Add in the homeless in general, the
Goodwill donation truck that seconds as a recycling center ["oh no, a homeless
magnet!"], and so on and it's a real life NIMBY parody of 'Toxic Avenger'.

My cynical side jokes as follows: * Twitter: Hate your heroes * Facebook: Hate
your friends//family * NextDoor: Hate your neighbors

I'm glad I don't NextDoor anymore, and I'm on the Twitter//Facebook//Reddit
triumvirate if that says anything.

NextDoor may not be a stone fence needing annual repair, but my noping out of
it has tended toward better neighborly relationships.

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pnw_hazor
My nextdoor community is pretty quiet, mostly people seeking handymen,
landscapers, etc., lost and found pets, overall pretty quiet and boring. Every
now and then there is flare up around some issue, such as, fireworks, junk
cars, prowlers, and so on. But they are pretty minor compared to FB or
Twitter. Few people engage in that behavior in my neighborhood nextdoor I
guess.

The city and police share out the same stuff they do on their facebook pages
and official website.

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A4ET8a8uTh0
I like Nextdoor. Its focus on 'hyper local' allows me to get recommendations
for local businesses.

I do have a problem with NDAs signed by my local elected officials. I would
like to know what they are up to, thank you very much.

------
gerardnll
Awful idea of a company we don't need as a society. If you want to connect
with your neighbours go talk to them, go and plan something for the
street/neighbourhood, participate in local festivities, buy in local stores.
Human contact is what we need, no virtual substitutes. If there's an issue,
solve it in person, speaking... Not to talk about tracking and privacy
concerns.

~~~
beeskneecaps
This makes sense for your immediate neighbors. It gets trickier to go door to
door meeting your neighbors around the entire block for example. Especially
during SIP! That’s where you probably want to meet your neighbors online then
connect with them later offline.

~~~
c22
You're living there so you could do one a week until you've met them all.
Also, block parties are great.

------
mgkimsal
My nextdoor story:

A couple of years ago we got a post in our nextdoor group: "watch out - car
burglary!".

Paraphrasing here - "be aware - someone is breaking in to cars parked outside
and taking stuff. they got our gun last night!"

Another neighbor chimed in a day later with "yeah, got mine too!". There's
only maybe 60 houses in the whole area, and... _people are leaving guns in
cars - one was unlocked_.

This was, to my view, nowhere near "responsible gun ownership" \- regardless
of your 2A views, it just seems like that behavior should be illegal. But...
it's not (at least in our state).

Over the last couple years, I've used it as a talking point when talking 'gun
rights' stuff to people, and - surprisingly to me - I only get around 50% of
"pro gun" people who agree with me that it's irresponsible behavior.

~~~
waffle_ss
How do you know the gun wasn't in one of those little portable safes? Or in a
locked glove box?

If I'm running errands around town, I can't bring my gun into certain
businesses, or federal facilities like the post office. So it stays locked in
my car, in a little lock box that is tethered to the metal seat base with
steel cable (but the cable could be cut with big enough bolt cutters or an
angle grinder).

I see no problems keeping guns in cars as long as they're secured, but I agree
if your neighbors hadn't either locked theirs up somehow then that's
irresponsible.

~~~
mgkimsal
I don't, certainly. Had they said "they got bolt cutters and cut through my
steel cable securing my portable gun safe!" I'd have been a bit more
impressed. Two people within a few days just... not sure they _both_ had
portable gun safes broken in to. Possibility certainly - might ask one (one of
them moved away recently).

------
blululu
I was pressured into signing up for NextDoor in order to participate in a
local civic function. The whole experience felt very sketchy (ironic because a
lot of the my neighborhood is people complaining about 'shady' characters).
They had a slew of dark patterns in their sign up to try to get me to give out
email addresses of friends so that they could be spammed with signup emails.
The network is fine, but having public civic functions existing behind a
closed wall owned by a private company is a really bad idea. Using Craigslist
would be way less sketchy.

~~~
beeskneecaps
Craigslist would not be where I would recommend operating civic functions.

------
raiyu
It's a tired saying, but no less, true if you aren't paying for it you are the
product.

There are no social platforms that are VC backed that aren't going to at some
point resort to the lowest common denominator of making a buck at someone's
expense. And when you aren't paying for the product, then you are no longer
able to control that exchange.

Google started off with Don't be Evil - now they force adverts from your
competitors on your registered trademark and force you to advertise your own
company name or lose customers - meanwhile for Google's products, no one can
advertise in the same manner.

Facebook - well - that one is too long to even dive into.

Twitter - has done ok, sort of - but the problem with it's no policing policy
is pretty rampant harassment that is also dealt with in an inconsistent
manner.

That's why paying for something you create an exchange where the company
providing that service has an incentive to keep you happy, not some
advertising company. There is also competition that will naturally spring up,
competing for that dollar.

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1024core
I wrote a post on Nextdoor, criticizing some of the decisions made by local
officials. It got a few responses, and then a day or two later, silently
disappeared. I didn't get any notification that it was gone; it had just been
quietly deleted with no notification to me.

If this is how Nextdoor chooses to behave, then it's useless to me. I've
stopped using the app.

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shimylining
I think it all depends on which location you are in. My location has been
great especially during this time and people are offering help and also giving
away food for the less abled.Also the other day there was something that
sounded like gunshots, police were called and I found out it was nothing bad
on nextdoor first than my local news site or twitter.

------
tinyhouse
Initially I thought Nextdoor is a great idea. A place where you can get to
know your neighbors, ask for recommendations for local labor, discover new
restaurants that opened in town, etc. Like everyone already mentioned, the
noise ratio made it hard to use and I quickly didn't bother to log in and
canceled all notifications.

Also, my town and all nearby towns have FB groups. It's not at a neighborhood
level like in Nextdoor but most towns are not that big that it matters much.
I'm not big on those groups either, but I'm assuming with good group
moderators you can get the same or even greater value. In that sense Nextdoor
is just a feature...

~~~
MivLives
I used to live on a street that had our own Facebook group. It was all things
like "They're inspecting trash cans on the sidewalk again, I threw all your
trash cans up on your porches to avoid the fine" and "Tim's backyard bike shop
is open again, stop by with a six pack for a tune up"

I miss that street.

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someonehere
Nextdoor definitely has its share of racist sounding posts.

A woman in my neighborhood said she came home late one night and parked a
couple of blocks from her home. She was walking home and a younger black male
was walking behind her. As she walked closer to her home she said she felt he
was getting closer to her. She turned around and said “night tonight buddy!”
really loud. She was convinced the guy was out to rape her.

The only thing I like Nextdoor for is I can find neighbors in a day who I can
sell or give away things I no longer need. It’s like Craigslist circa early
2000s in terms of genuine people who want to take it off your hands.

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bob1029
The worst part about this type of social network is the people it brings out
of the woodwork. Those crazy assholes who live in your neighborhood who were
otherwise confined to passive aggressive letters and shouting at you as you
take down your trash now have the ability to band together with other asshole
neighbors and get the police involved whenever they collectively feel an
emotional response about something.

How is this a good thing for those of us who want to be left the fuck alone?
How do we put an end to this ridiculous nonsense?

~~~
Catsandkites
As another person who mostly wants to be left the fuck alone as well:

One of the internet's greatest gifts is the ability to communicate with so
many people you would otherwise have never spoken to.

One of its greatest curses is that all of the stupid people, who used to only
ever be able to talk to the other X stupid people in their small area, can now
talk to a world wide network of stupid people. Pushing each other to ever
increasing levels of stupidity that inevitably spills out onto everyone else's
lives.

And unfortunately it seems there is no putting the genie back into the bottle.

------
TallGuyShort
>> Nextdoor and the public agencies it works with say that close ties between
the social media platform and the government can help them both do their jobs
better.

The thing is, that's true. It's the way they're going about it and the fact
that it's a messy public / private mix that raises ethical concerns. At some
point we're going to need to rethink an official channel for government
communications. Think about it: how dependent on social media have many of us
been to find out the latest public health mandates? And how well do we feel
like social media deals with fake news and fraud and privacy? The combination
of those two is a big problem. There needs to be a better official
communications platform.

The US Postal Service was seen as very fundamental to the forming of its
government. Now, ignoring the financial woes and plundering by Congress, and
ignoring the very lousy and incompetent service you can get from it in some
places, it just has fundamental limitations in cost, speed, level of non-
repudiation, etc. It's largely become a subsidized junk mail / litter
distribution network. It's how I'm supposed to get official correspondence
from the IRS, but it's harder than it should be to know it REALLY came from
the IRS, and to prove that I REALLY replied on time, and to actually work
towards a resolution. We can't use it for all our elections because of (real
or not) fraud concerns so we use more inconvenient forms of voting. If you
need to take someone to court you can't trust it, so you have to pay for
expensive process service. It doesn't get used to notify me of changes in laws
that affect me, like I might get fined if I go to the park with my kids
tomorrow. It can't be used to tell me that I can't park my car where I usually
do in 72 hours because of time-sensitive maintenance, we instead pay someone
to put a note on my door and hope it doesn't blow away. It's not great. The de
facto solution? Rely on NextDoor and Facebook. And we get ethical dilemmas
like this article.

I really think at some point we need to declare some kind of Internet access a
fundamental need as much as service by USPS (which is required to service
every address) has been in the past, and not rely on private infrastructure
for basic government services like this. As someone who tends to be
libertarian and lives somewhat off-grid a lot of the time, I see the
difficulties and fully expect that our government would screw up the execution
of this. But at some point I think it's necessary and inevitable to at least
try. The most basic functions of government could be done so much better.

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SmallPeePeeMan
I don’t understand the problem with law enforcement. Can someone explain the
risks/problems? Because I’ve only ever used NextDoor to get referrals for
plumbers, handymen, electricians, gardeners, etc.

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SmallPeePeeMan
What do cops get out of NextDoor? Please help me to understand

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dx87
I think the worst thing I've seen popping up on Nextdoor is quarantine zealots
reporting people to the police for leaving the house for "non-essential"
reasons. The most recent example I saw was a hairdresser using Nextdoor to
schedule 1 on 1 house calls since they can't pay their bills due to the
quarantine, and a busybody reported them because "millions of people will die
if we don't stay inside". I don't know what ended up happening to the
hairdresser though.

------
lonelappde
It's a sign of the times that this article doesn't mention any FBI corruption
investigation, which is is clearly necessary here.

