
Why the 9-to-5 Day Is So Tough on Creative Workers - wellpast
http://m.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/12/science-that-proves-the-9-to-5-day-is-hell-for-creative-workers/282331/
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programminggeek
It is completely unsurprising to me that this could be true. If you look at
efficiency gains over the years relative to wages, people are working more and
earning less. I think the statistic is something like we should be working
like 15 hours a week to get the same productivity as was the norm in either
1950 or 1970.

I think a lot of people would love to work half the time to make something
like 2/3 or 3/4 of what they are making now, especially considering what wages
should be given productivity increases.

Let's face it, the reason the 40 hour workweek exists anymore is a habit, not
because it's the correct amount of hours to work. Everyone expects a 40 hour
work week because that's just what full time employment is supposed to be
right?

~~~
xivzgrev
Unfortunately capitalism gets in the way.

Suppose you're a factory owner with 4 workers working 40 hours per week. You
invest in a new machine that lets everyone be twice as productive. If you
don't have demand for the extra output, then do you cut everyone's hours in
half or let two people go?

Think the far more common solution is to let two people go. So even though
productivity went up, hours worked per week stayed constant.

And I think 40 hours per week is status quo. Suppose you get a job offer, and
ask to work just 30 hours per week. There are a number of forces conspiring
against you: 1) If you're salaried, the employer would see this as less
efficient (even if you're actually more efficient) 2) If you're used to a
particular way of living, 30 hours could entail pay cut 3) Others are willing
to work 40 hours per week, and hence employer gets more "value" out of hiring
someone else per week

I think best bet to achieve that reality is to be your own boss. Friend of
mine works as a UI consultant and bills out at $200 per hour, works maybe
20-30 hours per week. It's a brilliant gig.

~~~
annnnd
I don't think the factory owner example applies here (the article is talking
about creative workers.

And I also think that a lot of stuff is negotiable - you just need to show
your worth. It is all too easy to go the same path as all others did, just
because we think this is somehow expected of us.

But then again, I work 9-5 too and hate it (just the working hours, not the
job), so I guess I should fix that first before I lecture others... ;)

~~~
xivzgrev
Totally agree that article is talking about creative workers. But the factory
example is concrete and great for a basic discussion on the question of "why
the hell are we working so much when productivity has increased".

And completely agree stuff is negotiable. But as mentioned, if not here then
above, I think being your own boss has the highest possibility for that.

For example, the ONLY people working <40 hours at my job are all independent
contractors. They come in, do exactly what is asked, and GTFO. My company
doesn't want them to "take on this as well" because every hour costs a pretty
penny :).

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greenyoda
I think we may be overestimating how much of the average developer's job
actually requires creativity.

Most programming jobs combine creativity with more mundane work. For example,
tracking down bugs or answering e-mail questions from co-workers or customers
generally doesn't require the amount of creativity that solving a previously
unsolved problem does. Neither does figuring out how some open source API
works (whoever designed it originally did the heavy lifting for us).

So if we reserve the hard stuff for our hours of peak creativity, we could
optimize our creative output while still getting a lot of other useful stuff
done in the remaining hours of an eight hour day. Even if my brain is
completely fried, I can usually find _something_ to do that pushes my work
forward.

~~~
henrik_w
"Tracking down bugs" _is_ a previously unsolved problem. It may not be
difficult, but it also may require as much creativity as writing something
new.

~~~
ddebernardy
+1 this. And the same for answering customer support issues. There's no limit
to how creative _customers_ can be at breaking everything they touch. Prey
tell the focus you need to even begin to imagine what is wrong when they
vaguely describe some convoluted behavior.

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Evgeny
_Today, workers are putting in increasingly more hours(!)—so much so that the
40-hour week has become a relic of the past._

(!) - in the US/UK, I guess, and some other countries ...

I moved to Denmark recently, there are goods and bads, but the 37-hour work
week is almost a religion. And there are 6 weeks holidays per year. Creativity
and innovation should be safe in this country.

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kamaal
Well, reading this article makes me wonder where I'm. If a 40 work week is
tough, what about people like me who are having a routine 40 hour work week
job and trying to bootstrap a company/work on side projects by the evening and
night.

I am sleep deprived regularly, often I just come to home totally tired after
work and travel. Only to find I have to pick myself up and throw in another
5-6 hours. Add to this stress when things don't workout,an occasional bad day
and occasions when I have to face failure after days of work. Plus I have a
family to which I have to tend to. Often they feel I'm just not spending time
with them.

I completely agree that currently I'm in some sort of tiring march. I'm tired
already. I see wins rarely, but continue to put in record efforts. On the
other hand, I see the only reason I'm doing this is because.

    
    
        a. To some extent I enjoy what I'm doing.
        b. I want the money.
        c. I see I'm literally getting addicted to it.
        d. If I don't put such efforts, I feel guilty
           that I might just be getting lazy, or
           under performing.
        e. There are good deal of people whom I would like to 
           prove wrong.
    

I've discussed this with my mentor, who is a veteran of 3 successful start
up's and has had a great career so far. He tells the modern internet techie's
narrative of stress and tiredness is just plain whining, complaining and
asking for sympathy. Though he agrees its a little stressful and tiring. Smart
people eventually realize achieving something big demands hard sacrifices.

I also see many other smart successful people putting ridiculous efforts day
in and out to win. And its in every profession. Whether its sports, medicine,
software, hardware etc.

I feel at the end of the day, its just like a rubber band. You can stretch
until it breaks. Some people just practice it stretching enough number of
times to keep the breaking point a little high. After some time you just get
numb, and absorb failures, stress, big sacrifices and just keep moving
forward. And then what happens doesn't really matter.

~~~
Nursie
>>If a 40 work week is tough, what about people like me who are having a
routine 40 hour work week job and trying to bootstrap a company/work on side
projects by the evening and night.

You people are crazy!

Now sure, you may achieve something huge and it might all be worth it. But in
the mean time you're missing what remains of your youth and neglecting your
family.

You don't have to put that sort of time in to 'win' at life with software. You
can make really good money and live a life inaccessible to 99.5% of the
world's population by working 37 hours and being good at it. If you need to be
part of the 0.5% then don't let me put you off trying, but I'd be giving
serious thought to whether I really needed it or if my life would he better
scaling it back and taking time with loved ones.

~~~
icelancer
I am trying to change the world. So far, I've had some decent success. That
will cost me part of my life, just as it has for everyone else who has changed
the world in some meaningful way.

It is the price we pay. And I'm not getting any younger. (Early 30's.)

~~~
Nursie
I wish you luck in your goals.

I don't want to change the world, I want to enjoy it, which is why I take on
consultancy work and take prolonged vacations in between.

Life's too short whichever path you take :)

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bonjourmr
On a related note, I would even prefer working 4 days for 10 hours to make
this quota if absolutely necessary, and though I am not particularly
supportive of said work hours per week, I do obey the system. I understand
that there may have some W/OHS related issues with this of course.

I wonder what sort of impacts these things would have on things of a grander
scale, such as the economy, transport, employment rates, inflation etc. I
refer to either lowering the hours & pay per employee per week (as discussed
in other comments) or overlapping shifts such as half the employees work 38
hrs Mon>Thu and the other half working 38 hrs Tue>Fri (rough schedule of
course).

Have there been any remotely similar studies on this?

~~~
techsupporter
Sure, it's called most any support/operations team in large IT shops. Since
most IT places staff ops and helpdesk for coverage, they get more creative and
flexible with shifts. Developers are seen as task-oriented so they get the
business hours when the boss is in the office. A 4x10 shift is what keeps me
in my current role, by and large (also because I work a "shift," I can
completely cut off from work when I'm not at work because other people are
paid to work the other hours). Our current shifts run 10 hours days, 10 hours
swings, and 10 hours nights with each "side" of the week working four days.
Each shift on the same side of the week overlaps with the preceding and
following shift by two hours and all shifts overlap at some point on
Wednesday.

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thu
And yet, the only way for me to bootstrap my own company is by working those
40 hours per week _and_ working at home after the one-hour commute, and on
weekend. Now it's no longer 40 hours as I have swapped job and work only 4
days per week instead of five.

And I would say that I even have to be more "creative" since bootstrapping a
company involves a lot more different work than a regular day job.

But still I agree with the article; it's been a long time since I promised
myself to offer a four-day flexible week to my future employees.

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teddyh
I _wish_ I had a 9-to-5. In Sweden, business hours are 8-5. They still _call_
it an 8 hour workday, since they exclude the lunch hour.

~~~
guangnan
China is the same. The norm is 9-to-6.

~~~
dongchongyubing
not true for gongwuyuan

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bowlofpetunias
Are there any non-self employed developers/engineers here that are still being
"forced" to work 9-to-5 or similar?

Because in my experience, for most software centric companies it's just a
paper obligation which is ignored with mutual agreement as long as the job
gets done.

In fact, I don't know of anybody still forced to work 9-to-5 without a
contextual reason (opening hours, shifts etc).

~~~
VexXtreme
> Are there any non-self employed developers/engineers here that are still
> being "forced" to work 9-to-5 or similar?

I used to work at such place. The "office hours" were 9-6 and people were
expected to adhere to that. I was an architect on a project and engaged in
highly creative work so I tried to make my hours slightly more flexible,
because honestly, my output was very high and I didn't think it mattered
whether I was there 9-6, 10-7 or whatever. Soon enough I got called into a
meeting with the company president and an HR person and was sternly told that
if I didn't start showing up at 9am straight that I would be let go. I tried
to argue that the hours don't really matter for creative work and was told
"Don't try to make this company into something it's not".

Some places are completely fucked up and beyond toxic. It also just so happens
they're run by idiots.

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mark_l_watson
I was surprised about the article content about the brain taking up to 4 hours
to ramp up in the morning. I usually work (mostly) from home and I find the
three hours when I first wake up from about 6 to 9am are my most productive. I
usually then take 2 or 3 hours off for hiking or other exercise, then start
working again. Sometimes I also work for an hour after dinner.

I am working as a contractor on-site at Google right now, and it is
challenging working non-stop without long breaks. I get into work by 6:30am
and the first three hours is great (quiet, almost no one there, and also that
is my best time of day). I find that short 15 minute walking around the block
breaks don't really reset me back into work mode like a long hike does.

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superJoy
I only work when I feel I can be productive, and am currently averaging 6.5
hours per day. As a graduate student I am somewhat disconnected from the whole
"show up at x, leave at f(x)" concept. I also tend to work on the weekend.
Basically if something has to be done, I make time for it.

The disadvantage to this approach is that whenever I want to meet people, I
have to modify my schedule. There is value in the idea that everyone involved
in a project is at the office for a mandated period of time. It may not be
best for everyone, but it sure is nice to be able to interact with people
without the ordeal of establishing a common meeting time.

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wskinner
The original title, "Why the 9-to-5 Day Is So Tough on Creative Workers",
might be more appropriate.

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mrcactu5

      A shorter workday works particularly well for knowledge
      workers—people in creative or professional jobs—who can
      work productively for about six hours a day, 
      compared to the eight hours manual laborers 
      can churn out, according to Salon. 
    

Since when do we care about the well-being of manual workers - or
professionals? The focus on management has been to (fail to ) extract as much
labor as they can from their workers and paying them the least. This can be
formalized through various management mumbo jumbo.

How do we re-educate managers to "risk" losing productivity by trying these
alternative means?

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JackMorgan
The really funny thing, my wife works at a sort of creative job writing
helicopter manuals, and all her coworkers call her crazy for only working 40
hours: they all actually get overtime pay!

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moron4hire
I've been saying for a while now that the only problem with the 9-to-5
schedule is its adherents' insistence that it's the only valid lifestyle.

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kbelbina
I run a consultancy so its easier but we pay hourly and provide benefits
(payroll taxes, health, 401k). People can work whatever hours they want and
from where ever they just keep the team updated and request a workload
consistent with their expected hours. I have team members who work 50 hours a
week and some who work 20 hours.

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jotm
"Kellogg’s discovered, was that employees were happy to work less when they
were paid 12.5% more per hour, meaning the company was able to offer more
jobs"

I don't get it, how were they able to offer more jobs when they paid the same
wage (6hrs/day with a 12.5% increase)?

~~~
ksmiley
Perhaps Kellogg's limiting factor was not their salary budget, but maximum
occupancy on their assembly lines. Switching from eight hours to six means you
can hire a whole additional shift of workers, assuming the machines run 24
hours a day.

If 6 hour workers are 112.5% as productive per hour as 8 hour workers, then
this turns out to be a good deal for Kellogg's.

~~~
jotm
Oh, that makes sense!

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badelynge
Proves? Hasn't this been common knowledge for a long time? Why else would jobs
that need workers that are creative, but not __too creative__ demand a 9-to-5
day?

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arxpoetica
As a creative, I easily could have told you this. ;)

