
Ask HN: I'm losing faith in all we've invested in Apple software, what do I do? - hellofunk
The latest rounds of bugs in both macOS and iOS are so severe that it is crippling the productivity of some employees in my business (all-remote) who either can&#x27;t see emails because of bugs like this one [0] (which is also affecting me now for a few weeks and is extremely annoying), or problems with Catalina preventing a solid WiFi connection, and many others.<p>The bugs are so extreme, and Apple is mute on most of them, pointing us to very generic FAQs that have nothing to do with the problems, rather than acknowledging and trying to work with the community to address them.<p>I fear this is just the beginning of a new era of problems with Apple software, like the company has become so big and successful it is falling into the traps that hit Microsoft two decades ago that caused so many people to move to OSX and Linux in the first place (among other reasons).<p>The problem is, we&#x27;ve invested so much in Apple technologies, workflows, the ecosystem, that I don&#x27;t know if we should just wait it out and keep our fingers crossed, or make a dedicated effort to become less reliant on any single tech provider. I strongly fear that this is a new reality and will be a pattern for a long time.<p>I&#x27;m sure we aren&#x27;t alone with this -- any thoughts from others?<p>[0] https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discussions.apple.com&#x2F;thread&#x2F;250699892
======
sivers
Best bit of tech advice I ever got was way back in 1997 when I was building an
e-commerce site.

I was totally new to this, not a programmer, and needed guidance. I was about
to go with some commercial software called Drumbeat, that ran on top of some
Microsoft stuff.

Some experienced programmer said, “Only use truly open source choices, not
anything owned by a company, because if the company turns bad or stops
upgrading, you'll be screwed.”

So I used PHP and MySQL and that one decision changed my life completely.
Years later I swapped out the PHP for Ruby, and switched from MySQL to
PostgreSQL, but I was able to because they were all just open solutions. That
program called Drumbeat got bought or sold or something and eventually shut
down. I'm so glad I wasn't banking my company on them. That one decision back
in 1997 has helped save me so much strife over the years.

Just like the comments here (that I've seen so far) there will be a bunch of
commercial ecosystem fans saying, “The ecosystem is fine! Just learn to work
within their boundaries!” (Don't upgrade until x.1 etc.)

But it sounds like you've hit your freedom moment. Use this frustration to
switch to truly open source choices, and never depend on any one company
again.

~~~
_AzMoo
On the flip-side, when relying on OSS you can often find yourself in a
situation where the last maintainer of a library critical to your workflow
disappears, and the only options you have are to fork it and maintain it
yourself (at high cost), or switch to something else if it's available (often
at high cost). OSS is not a panacea for development risk.

~~~
chme
You can always choose some well supported and active open/free source product.
If that gets abandoned, then you will figure that out and there will be others
in the same boat as you and share the cost.

Also you could just pay some open/free source developers if they provide
mission critical software for you, so that it does not get abandoned. Free as
in Freedom, not as in beer they say.

~~~
tmikaeld
This depend entirely on the scope of the software, take the project Rubedo CMS
[0] for example, which died after funding was cut.

It was simply too large for anyone to pick up where they left off.

[0]
[https://github.com/WebTales/rubedo/issues/1477](https://github.com/WebTales/rubedo/issues/1477)

------
ossworkerrights
Personally, regardless of manufacturer or developer, i wait a few months
before a major upgrade to give them enough time to fix bugs. I do the same
when it comes to cars, mobile devices, and operating systems.

However there does seem to be a pattern of regressions in apple’s products (i
put on hold buying a mac pro simply because its specs are very low for the
price, the gap being much higher than usual).

What i would do is ask employees what they prefer. Accounting might favour
windows, while developers or sysadmins might prefer linux (let them chose the
flavour). If your company is non technical the windows might be the only
alternative. But either way, breaking away from a single vendor is a good
idea.

~~~
mister_hn
when you buy new hardware, you have already the new versions of OS. You don't
have a choice

~~~
VvR-Ox
Apple doesn't want to give you a choice but you can still do it:

1\. Use some mac to download an older OS installer. The links are hidden but
you can find them in some forums etc.

2\. Create a bootstick - either manually or with software like dosdude's
really nice patchers (find them here:
[http://dosdude1.com/](http://dosdude1.com/))

3\. Backup your stuff (not only time machine as it would reinstall the new
version of macos again) and install the old macOS to get your apps and files
back on it

This is something I really hate about Apple - why can't they just provide some
official download links that keep working?

With Apple I have a love-hate-relationship because some products (MBP until
2016/17, iPhone 5s/SE) and software (keynote, pages, lot of parts of the OS)
are awesome while their software policy and planned obsolescence screws you
hard if you just follow their lead as a simple user.

You always have to take care not to update too early, use workarounds to
integrate devices with different Apple software (like with airdrop) and if you
brick devices there is few ways getting back to business (no helpful error
messages like the icons they show on boot when something goes wrong or
messages from their system diagnostic like "HDD is damaged" while it's just
the cable).

~~~
winterbc
You can simply restart with Shift-Option-⌘-R and reinstall the macOS version
the hardware shipped with or the most compatible version.

[1] [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204904](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT204904)

~~~
VvR-Ox
I know but that is not possible in every situation. I for example had no
recovery mode on a MBP so I needed to get the Apple software on it somehow.

The tool from dosdude can do a bit more. With it I managed to install High
Sierra on a MBP from 2009 (which isn't compatible anymore but it runs
flawlessly).

Before it had an HDD with Windows only and no access to recovery mode or
diagnostic tools. Thanks to the "High Sierra Patcher" everything works now :)

------
roosgit
You might be able to solve most of your problems by being more conservative
about upgrading. If your business doesn't depend on having Catalina installed
on day 1 on your machines, you could keep Mojave around a little bit longer. I
think the same could be applied to iOS.

If everything was working fine on macOS 10.14 and iOS 12 why switch to Linux?
I'm sure Android and Linux have their own issues even if they're different
from Apple's. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

~~~
tebbers
I agree with this. As a developer there’s no way I’m going to risk my system
by upgrading as soon as a major update is released. Wait until 10.x.1 at
least. Catalina seems particularly bad from what I’ve heard from colleagues,
but it’s a sensible strategy generally.

~~~
TomMarius
I am still on El Capitan, works good

------
kuon
We had the same "issue" about two years back.

We finally switched to Linux, we are happy now as Linux is stable and
productive, but it took nearly a year of effort to learn and tune linux
desktop to our liking.

The biggest difference is that you can tune/fix anything in Linux, but it
takes time.

The one thing that is hard on linux is iOS dev, we do not do it anymore. It is
possible with hacked VM, but it's a pain.

------
stringcode
I've used macs for decade. Tried migrating to Ubuntu workstation for my
development work horse. Week to build a PC. Fun but lost a week of work. One
week to set everything up. Ending up having to write scripts to control fan
curve of GPU. Week 3 back to mac for writing code and deploying / running
stuff on ubuntu workstation.

~~~
wayneftw
Choose your hardware better next time.

~~~
pi-rat
Which ofc comsumes time as well, for research ;)

~~~
wayneftw
The price of absolute freedom is certainly some small amount of sacrifice.

However, if you need a GPU to do work you're also surely part of a very small
percentage of developers.

------
s_dev
Why are you oblidged to upgrade to the newest software i.e. why do you have to
move from Mojave to Catalina or from iOS 12 to iOS 13.

Why wasn't waiting a few months for stability patches an option?

~~~
razormouse
So the answer is to simply not trust Apple to release stable code? Surely the
very existence of this answer, proves the point of the original question.
Anything else is just victim blaming.

~~~
s_dev
>victim blaming

Ah here, leave it out.

All new software has new problems -- don't want the problems. Opt for tried
and tested. Plenty of folk still happily purring along on older versions of
macOS.

There was a great article here the other day about a guy revising his approach
to upgrading macOS every October instead choosing to evaluate the new features
vs introducing change that can break things. Can't find it though atm.

~~~
iClaudiusX
It used to be that a release was tried and tested. Now everyone's an unpaid QA
tester months after the official beta period is over. And the folk wisdom of
"wait until x.1" keeps getting pushed further and further back to the point of
futility.

------
laurent123456
Why not start by switching to open source solutions for some of your software?
For example, Thunderbird works fine everywhere. It might not be as pretty as
Apple software but personally I've never had any major issue with it (used it
on Linux, Windows and macOS).

Once you've switched several of your applications and workflow to open source
it will make it easier to switch everything later to Linux or Windows.

------
catchmeifyoucan
Was using iOS this morning - the share sheet was so confusing. It changed so
radically. I'm very surprised they hadn't done a usability test - it's almost
impossible to know that we have to scroll up.

Edit: using safari

~~~
threeseed
The share sheet changes depending on the content.

I just tried it from the Photos and Safari apps and it was very obvious that I
needed to scroll up/down (because it clipped the button mid way through). Also
the entire screen scrolls so pretty confused why people aren't noticing it.

~~~
catchmeifyoucan
What device are you using?

~~~
threeseed
Just checked on an iPhone 10 and iPhone 10s Max.

Both clip the buttons within Photos and Safari.

------
viraptor
It really depends on how much you really invested in the workflows which can't
be easily replaced. Can you calculate yourself how much you'd spend on a move?
Or list what existing workflow you think you can't move from?

Also, have you considered downgrading and staying with older versions for a
longer time? ([https://www.imore.com/how-downgrade-
macos](https://www.imore.com/how-downgrade-macos))

------
natch
I’m waiting to see if they improve the keyboards... They’ve had long enough to
do it and the latest tweaks have been weak. If the next gen 16”? isn’t
significantly better (real key travel, for one thing) then I will finally
consider a non-Apple laptop. With Linux of course.

Will still have to keep an Apple one for work on their platform.

~~~
zabana
I second this. Their keyboards have been awful to use recently and the newest
versions just don't cut it for me. I'm now a very happy thinkpad user and I
don't think I'll ever look back. (I previously owned a dell xps 13 and I
wholeheartedly recommend it to anybody looking to make the switch)

Edit: both laptops were running linux

------
isralcduke
Designer here, mostly in the same boat. Begin small moves to have your data in
other, non Apple sources. Maybe put calendars in Google or Outlook, for
example. Put Notes entries in Markdown files (there’s apps for that). I don’t
know the extent of your hurdles, but I feel the same and started small
migrations.

------
jedieaston
Is your company big enough to be using Joint Venture/AppleCare for Enterprise?
If so, I'd talk to your rep about either getting this stuff fixed or getting
your fees refunded.

In the meanwhile, start testing Windows or Linux desktops with a few people.
If you start planning a changeover now and Apple doesn't get your stuff fixed,
it won't be as difficult as trying to rush the company through a ecosystem
change.

------
contingencies
Open source + webapps. Learn to build your own. Takes awhile but well worth
it.

I'd conservatively estimate our company are currently saving no less than
_four full time salaries_ (accountant, purchasing, office admin, sysadmin) and
related expenses just on use of webapps. We also use features like auto-
translating stuff which makes the multicultural team more cohesive. Not to
mention all the RCS/VCS resolved issues with file x version y, file x version
y NEW, 'change tracking', oops i deleted it, i forgot to update the version
number and all that jazz you can completely sidestep. Totally rife in many
companies. My experience is that if you force people to use a decent system it
works.

Our stack is currently fastmail + github + digital banks + some internal
services on three different cloud providers (all have issues).

It's not perfect though.

What I hate about _fastmail_ : the app and webapp both suck in China and
anywhere with slow and spotty connectivity. No image resizing in an app in
2019. The support isn't great.

What I hate about _github_ : charge you for 'seats' even if you remove them.
Counts someone you hire and fire as a whole month or year if you're not
careful due to this fact. Cross-repo/organization view is new and only basic,
not good enough. Wacky access control model. Nutjob system integration policy.
API breaks and they don't care.

Unimpressed about _banks_ : many of them suck. Obtuse and backward onboarding
policies, random limits, incapacity to provide i18n-capable interfaces or
documentation in the year 2020, horrendous fees, non-transparent fee and tax
calculations, inability to access your money because (stupid bureaucratic
reason #1234), etc.

Unimpressed parts of three different cloud providers: _AWS_ sell you free
credits then reneg on the deal and steal your money in 100 ways. _Google_ sell
you free credits then reneg on the deal and steal your money in 100 ways.
Meanwhile, if you want to pay them and are in China it's impossible either to
talk to anyone or do so. _Hetzner_ are truly awesome but often slow from
China.

But despite the issues, if you're not on open source, you're truly killing
yourself. Things would be worse. Really. Except for some design software,
media authoring software and games, there's really no excuse. And IMHO the
best part of OSX is iTerm2 + brew, anyway.

------
risingsubmarine
Ironically Apply had the same problem themselves with respect to their choice
of CPU. They protected the future of their company by secretly maintaining two
versions of MacOSX, one that ran on PPC and another that ran on Intel. That
was a smart move. Consider maintaining (or planning) your company's shift to
another platform, or going platform agnostic.

------
mister_hn
If Catalina is hitting you hard, why don't you install Linux on top your Apple
devices?

Pick a very stable distribution (e.g. Ubuntu targets also Mac Hardware) and
never look back again. Next time you need new hardware, just don't buy any
overpriced Apple hardware again for your needs. Keep the dependency on Apple
as low as possible (e.g. only if you develop for iOS)

~~~
hu3
I think OP covered that in:

> The problem is, we've invested so much in Apple technologies, workflows, the
> ecosystem, that I don't know if we should just wait it out and keep our
> fingers crossed, or make a dedicated effort to become less reliant on any
> single tech provider.

And I agree with you, gradually move to open technologies like Linux would be
my choice as well.

~~~
mister_hn
yeah, for the most common and basic stuff like browsing, documents, email and
conferences, Linux works flawlessly.

Firefox + Thunderbird + LibreOffice are really good nowadays

------
juancn
Hire a decent IT person, have proper policies installed in the machines and
forbid updates that were not vetted by IT.

My company usually lags a quarter behind the latest OS, it about what it takes
for it to pass certification.

You're a company, your machines are tools for making money, treat them with
the necessary care.

------
kpU8efre7r
I love how a majority of answers revolve around not updating since Apple can't
be trusted to release good software.

~~~
threeseed
I wouldn't be upgrading to the .0 release of any software.

And have been following this advice since the 1980's which is when I first
started noticing it. It's not exclusive to Apple and simply because companies
typically aim for a particular release date.

------
lispm
> new era of problems with Apple software

The same advice was given to professional Apple users ten years ago and twenty
years ago: don't update to a new major release right away. Wait several patch
releases and several months for an update.

> hit Microsoft two decades ago

Microsoft still has similar problems today. Their recent OS updates were far
from smooth.

------
nathanaldensr
Why is faith required? Take a step back and drop any religious opinions you
may have about Apple, Microsoft, Google, etc. Evaluate each vendor in a calm,
rational manner. Make a list of things you need and determine which vendor
meets those needs.

There's no need for faith _or_ fear. These things are just tools.

------
catchmeifyoucan
Was using iOS this morning - the share sheet was so confusing. It changed so
radically.

------
meretext
This is not any help to you now, but Catalina was released early in October
and it's still October. Why did you and your remote workers upgrade to
Catalina so soon? I always wait at least 3 months for the bugs to shake out
for a major release of macOS, and about a month or so for iOS releases. Even
with patch releases, I'll wait a few weeks regardless of the platform. There's
a risk to not upgrading security patches, but there's also a risk to upgrading
via any patch. Best to find that middle ground to reduce the overall risk,
especially if you depend on the software in question.

 _Never_ upgrade your infrastructure or critical devices to a new major
release of any vendor's operating system, or an application's major release,
until some time after those releases have had time to be experienced by
others, and any major issues resolved.

I've not upgraded to Catalina, obviously -- I'm in the process of, over the
next few weeks or months, finding and upgrading any 32-bit s/w that now must
be 64-bit to work. Until I've validated that, and the bugs have been worked
out, I will wait to upgrade.

As for prior comments about using open source or other options, well, I don't
see that there aren't issues there as well. I delay upgrades Linux, FreeBSD
and even OpenBSD versions until any major issues have been worked out for the
same reasons.

Ultimately, there are no safe ways or safe operating systems or safe
applications that you can count on not failing after a major version upgrade.
Windows releases may be less buggy for a while, but maintaining Windows and
using Windows is more of a hassle for me that I'd be trading illusory
stability for extra work on an ongoing basis using and managing that OS. I
love open source, but there are issues there in usability, interoperability,
availability of apps and so on -- configuring a desktop manager, etc. I love
open source, always championed it within government, but there are issues and
tradeoffs ith it as well.

I use Apple products for my work and other areas because their products
generally work well, the ease of use can't be beat in my opinion, and it's
worth the tradeoff to me of an occasional hiccup in upgrading. The Catalina
upgrade is much more than a hiccup, but still, because I'm waiting it out on
macOS and iOS, it won't affect me. And it should not have affected you, if
you'd waited it out. Sorry it's causing so much pain for you and your
business, but I don't see moving to any other platform is going to solve or
resolve similar issues in the future. Mitigate the risks by waiting before
upgrading in the future.

------
ClearAndPresent
No-one who has used Apple products professionally in a production environment
- and knew what they were doing - has ever upgraded to a .0 release of the OS.
I don't understand why you would do this and I don't understand why you
wouldn't advise your employees not to do it either.

------
as1019
Avoid developing dependencies on a platform. Use web apps if possible.

~~~
cesarb
> Use web apps if possible.

Then you're adding a dependency on the web app. And unlike offline platforms,
with web apps you don't even have the option of "don't upgrade" or "wait to
upgrade".

------
codeulike
Don't upgrade until about a year after something comes out

~~~
gargravarr
By which time the next release comes out.

You can't win with Apple now.

~~~
codeulike
On OSX you can still upgrade to the old one though

------
Yuioup
Move to Linux

