
Ask HN: Technical roles without technical interviews? - throwawayc2020
Well, I&#x27;m done with technical interviews (as a candidate). So far in this job search I&#x27;ve gone through the full interview process at close to 15 companies, and have done over 40 technical rounds in that time.<p>I just can&#x27;t handle the stress, anxiety, and rejection any more. Is there a job out there that can take advantage of over a decade&#x27;s worth of software engineering experience but that doesn&#x27;t have a technical interview portion?
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rafiki6
Honestly, I think it's a sign of the times. We might be at the peak here. I
have recently interviewed at a couple of "AI" labs at banks and some MLE
positions at insurance companies and one startup, and they are all requiring
leetcode. Most of them have asked dynamic programming questions and expected
working solutions in 20 mins. IMO it's a sign of higher supply than demand. I
think it's about to get much much worse with many companies moving to remote
work, meaning we are competing with folks in countries like India (no offence
meant here, it's just a product of the education system) who are much hungrier
and will literally do every possible Leetcode problem out there.

I think we are about to experience a tech bubble bursting type of situation
(especially given the over inflated valuations + ridiculous stock prices of
FAANG), meaning much less jobs, much higher competition and a whole world of
pain, which will result in many folks leaving this profession (especially
those with little experience and with no real formal education).

Now with the emergence of things like GPT-3 expect further automation of
annoying software dev tasks and a lot of front end roles transforming or going
away entirely. I think future devs will need more ML exposure and experience
as that will become a standard part of the job soon enough, and we might enter
an era of growth after the bust with much more ML integration into products
and new companies forming around that.

In 5 years, the world of software dev will be a different place.

In the meantime, take a vacation, relax your brain, understand that most of us
are getting rejected and it has little to do with our skill, and get back to
leetcoding if you want those high paying cushy jobs. Use the smaller companies
who insist of pretending they are FAANG as practice, and aim for FAANG my
friend.

That's the best advice I can give because I feel the same pain and that's what
I'm doing.

~~~
throwawayc2020
Thanks for the comment. I pretty much feel the same way as you, especially the
bit about a higher supply than demand and the expectation that it will only
get worse.

I appreciate the advice of relaxing for a bit. Although I wouldn't want to
wish this on anyone, it is a bit relieving to hear that others are experience
something similar. Best of luck to you

~~~
dave_sid
Yes I’ll second this. I’ve been through interviews recently and, given the
current climate, it’s pretty gruelling compared to this time last year.

Most of them had 3 stages and a technical task that was expected to be your
best work ever.

You’re not alone in feeling this way so just stick at it until the right role
comes along. Read, study and improve in the meantime while you prepare for
each interview. You’ll come out the other end a stronger engineer.

~~~
runawaybottle
I’ll say that I‘ve dipped my toes recently as well, and sense it might be a
real buyers market.

I also could just suck. Like all things, the answer is probably some
combination.

------
scastiel
I have a mitigated opinion about technical interviews. I know several
companies hiring mostly in the employees’ network, so technical interview is
not really necessary. Good references are far better than any whiteboard test.

On the other end, by hiring only in your network, the result is often
companies lacking diversity. If you only work with people you know, you’ll
probably work with people from the same schools, same social class, same
experiences, etc. as you. At least technical interviews are more objective and
give a chance to people with diverse backgrounds.

We can probably find a proper mix between network and technical interviews. In
my opinion the technical interviews should be here to select candidates as a
prior step to any other interview. So they should be quite easy. (I’m always
surprised by the proportion on candidates to fail in very easy technical
tests.) The true candidate evaluation should be done according to soft skills:
ability to communicate, curiosity, desire to learn and help people, etc.

~~~
throwawayc2020
Makes sense to me, thanks for the perspective.

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dakiol
This must be an American thing. In Europe it's pretty rare to find tech
companies that do whiteboard questions and/or leetcode. The usual standard is
one meeting with HR and the head of engineering (and/or a senior engineer)
that ask you: tell me about yourself, what do you think about OOP, distributed
systems, how to scale servers, Solid principles and some common patterns. If
any, they invite you to an on-site meeting with the team to see if the team
likes you... and that's all.

I'm not talking about FAANG (because, honesty, 99.9% of us don't work/will
never work for a FAANG. And this includes HN folks as well. So it's pretty
useless to take FAANG as examples of anything).

~~~
maps7
How many interviews have you done like this? I am in Europe and my graduate
interviews were similar to this but I assumed more experienced interviews
would be more leetcode style..

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otras
I can't speak to the quality, but I've seen this "no whiteboard" job posting
website mentioned before:
[https://nowhiteboards.io/](https://nowhiteboards.io/). That being said, it
seems like many of them (at least on the front page) still require pair
programming and/or a take home assignment.

~~~
decafninja
I can verify that at least some of those companies listed there have
whiteboarded/leetcoded me.

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aprdm
I also feel it is frustrating. I have some good experience, lead a team of
seniors and implement very complex software solutions in a big company.

Still, when I send a CV, I receive a leetcode challenge that I have no desire
to study for and that doesn't represent my skillset or what I will be working
with.

Is frankly very upsetting. That is before even talking with a human being.

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atomashpolskiy
> I've been interviewing non-stop for a few months. For a few months prior to
> interviewing I watched computer science lectures online, read CTCI, and had
> a premium Leetcode subscription with a good amount of practice.

> I haven't done mock interviews with a friend, but I did pay for a few mock
> technical interviews.

Chances are that, given such extensive preparation, it's not really the
technical part that is the problem, if you haven't been able to get an offer
after going through a full process at 15 companies. Of course, it might be a
severe case of bad luck, but I'd bet that your anxiety and stress are somehow
leaking through. Did you self-reflect on that, and if yes, what are your
thoughts?

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dencodev
The easy answer you might not like: interview at small places that don't have
a lot of existing technical experience and don't pay very well. I've had 3
jobs now at small agencies (3-4 devs) that paid under $100k and none of them
required any sort of technical interview. One looked at a project I had on
Github and asked me to talk about it for a bit. Another just hired me without
any real proof of my ability, just what I said I could do. Another just asked
general interview questions. If you're fine building CRUD apps all day every
day for sometimes pretty dumb projects with often dumb technology choices and
no opportunity for upward advancement, it's a fine job.

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CM30
Well, there are three ways you can do this, at least from what I've
seen/heard.

1\. Become enough of an expert/authority in your field that you're hired on
the work you've done in the past. If you're a superstar that invented a game
changing JavaScript framework or open source project used by millions, people
aren't gonna throw you into a technical interview before hiring you.

2\. Find companies your friends/acquaintances work for and get the job through
your connections rather than a formal interview process.

3\. Apply for jobs at smaller or less technically focused companies where
interviews are a bit more traditional (and often come down to a quick chat
over a coffee or something).

~~~
aprdm
1\. Become enough of an expert/authority in your field that you're hired on
the work you've done in the past. If you're a superstar that invented a game
changing JavaScript framework or open source project used by millions, people
aren't gonna throw you into a technical interview before hiring you.

That depends. There's the case of the person who wrote brew being asked
technical questions to work at Apple.

In smaller fields, maybe. In FAANG I believe you would still go through the
pipeline.

On (2) likewise for a FAANG

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mraza007
Hey I think you might be referencing to no white boarding. The easiest way to
do this is to show your technical ability which might give the interviewer the
confidence that you are the right one and leverage your network because that
always helps.

You can show your abilities by building side projects,communicating the
communities,writing blogs or even contributing to the open source communities

~~~
throwawayc2020
Thanks for the comment. Those are some good areas where I can show my
expertise.

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p1esk
Are you saying you went through the leetcode/hackerrank daily preparation
routine for a couple of months, but you are still getting nervous during
interviews? If so, why do you think that is? Are you comfortable solving those
programming puzzles outside of the interviews? Have you timed yourself? Have
you done mock interviews with a friend?

~~~
throwawayc2020
I've been interviewing non-stop for a few months. For a few months prior to
interviewing I watched computer science lectures online, read CTCI, and had a
premium Leetcode subscription with a good amount of practice.

I haven't done mock interviews with a friend, but I did pay for a few mock
technical interviews.

I much prefer technical assessments that are related to the day-to day. In
either case, I'm much more comfortable working alone than I am with someone
watching in an interview. I've only ever worked alone and in these interviews
I have a hard time concentrating.

I'm not someone who can talk out loud and code at the same time. When I'm
coming up with a solution I think about a potential solution, recognize why it
won't work, and then go on to the next idea. I feel like this happens rapidly
in my head, but if I were to "talk out loud" I would just be constantly saying
why things won't work and it would take so much longer to get to the final
idea.

It's kind of like how if you were to loop through 100K items in the console.
If you don't output anything to the screen it's really quick, but when you
start printing the number it takes longer to run.

But really, I just feel like leetcode style interviews don't touch the surface
of my working experience and capabilities at all, and only focus on a very
narrow thing.

I realize this is where the industry is right now, so I'm looking for roles
that aren't a "programmer" but still benefit from my programming experience.

~~~
p1esk
_I just feel like leetcode style interviews don 't touch the surface of my
working experience and capabilities_

When you play a game, and encounter a particularly difficult level, do you
also feel like you don't have the skills needed to pass this level and
therefore you should just give up? Treat the interview process as a game.
Everyone plays the same game, and some people are better at it than others,
but it's just that, a game. Try to have fun with it. After all, you became a
programmer because you enjoy solving technical puzzles, right? Maybe having to
solve a puzzle with a timer, and with someone watching you is making you
uncomfortable, but it still involves doing what you love and what you're good
at. If you can't change the world, change your attitude.

By dismissing companies hidden behind this interview practice you eliminate
the majority of good SE jobs. You potentially trade a bad interview experience
for a bad job. Is this a good trade?

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neuroticfish
What sorts of companies are you applying to? And where? I consider myself to
be about average in technical skill and I don't have much trouble passing
interviews at good companies in the US South. I know I wouldn't be able to
make it in the Bay Area so I don't apply to jobs there.

~~~
throwawayc2020
All of the positions have been remote (US), and I suppose a lot of them are
headquartered in SF or NY. The companies I tend to apply are pre-ipo startups.

I have been rejected by FAANG, but I'm not surprised. I knew those were long-
shots, I guess I'm surprised that in reality the others were long-shots too.

I kind of have a feeling that everyone who has hired me in the past feels they
made the right decision, but also everyone who hasn't extended an offer feels
the same way.

~~~
neuroticfish
SF and NY are already competitive enough but remote positions make it 10x
worse. If you're really insistent on remote work for a startup try to focus on
Nashville, Charlotte, and Atlanta.

~~~
throwawayc2020
Thanks for the tip

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giantg2
Go for a midlevel dev position at a non-tech company. Manh of them will not
require leetcode. You will probably need a pay cut though.

