
IronPython in Action and the Decline of Windows - mace
http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/06/ironpython-in-action-and-decline-of.html
======
joubert
Look, I despise Windows and no longer use or program for it, but it is
ignorant to say that GUI programming in Windows is still stuck in 1995. XAML
adds a declarative interface to WPF control instantiation, and the out-of-the-
box WPF controls are more powerful than most other GUI toolkits, including
HTML.

~~~
moe
In my expirience the the mix of XML and code quickly grows into a worse
situation than just having a decent programming API in first place.

In Flex, which also sports a declarative layer, most seasoned developers seem
to try to avoid it as much as possible - because it gets in the way when
complexity grows.

Same story with XUL, which perhaps would feel a little less like broken glass
if they had omitted the "X" from the name.

But well, I have never coded a win32 GUI, so quite possible XAML really is a
step up from what they had before.

~~~
StrawberryFrog
_In my expirience the the mix of XML and code quickly grows into a worse
situation_

It depends on how you do it. In any environment, there are ways that scale and
ways that don't.

We've had very good results (seperation of concerns, plugability,
extensiblity, blendability) using the ViewModel pattern, an IOC Container and
Command objects.

The good part of WPF is that you can do all this, or other things, if you
want. The same is not true of Windows forms. WPF enables some nifty ways to
scale that are just not there in Windows forms.

------
StrawberryFrog
" _Each button in the UI has to be tediously positioned and configured ...
Windows UI programming is as tedious today as it was in 1995._ "

Clearly he's still doing Windows forms.

" _When is Microsoft going to learn the real lesson about simplicity of HTML?_
"

About three years ago.

WPF ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Presentation_Foundation> ) has
been around since .Net 3.0 ( 21 November 2006 ). The XAML markup, where you
don't have to "tediously position and configure" each element is heavily
influenced by HTML, CSS and SVG.

~~~
gduffy
That .NET 3.0 has been around since 2006 is a red herring. What really matters
is the percentage of Windows machines that have it installed.

I know a few companies that write desktop .NET software, and they can't use
WPF unless they add ~50MB to their download (or in the installer). That would
be bad for their growth rate.

~~~
kinghajj
That will largely become a non-issue as more people migrate from XP onto Vista
or 7; all installations of Vista come with .NET 3.0, and 7 will probably come
with 3.5 or maybe even 4.0 if it's out in time. Perhaps they could make two
downloads, one for XP users and another for Vista/7 users?

------
dinkumthinkum
Ok, first this is Guido and there is the obligatory "we're not worthy" stuff
but this is a pretty bad argument. UI development for Windows in .NET WinForms
is not that difficult and you do not generally have to dig into the guts of UI
subsystem.

Secondly, Guido brings out the old whipping boy of "clients are dead long live
the Web." I think this is not a good view. Why is it either Web or Clients.
Personally, if HTTP/HTML the best we're over going to do then I think it's a
pretty sad state of affairs. It also seems like a big waste to have these
powerful computers with many cores that do nothing but allow you to have more
tabs open in your web browser.

The web is a great platform but there must be a world beyond
HTTP/HTML/Javascript and the occasional Flash application.

Lastly, I think Guido is either being naive or coy treating HTML as if
developing UI in it has no tedious aspect to it.

------
euroclydon
His viewpoint on MS technologies is pretty dated and ridiculous:

"When is Microsoft going to learn the real lesson about simplicity of HTML?
Instead, Microsoft is doing the same thing to HTML that it does to anything it
touches: adding cruft to the point where the basic functionality is buried so
deeply that most people can't even find it."

Has he ever heard of ASP.NET MVC?

"It's no wonder that users are switching to the web as the platform for
everything that used to live on the desktop"

People are moving to the web? Hmmm...

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Well, I agree. Guido is hardly giving a charitable interpretation. Now if we
want to shame a Microsoft creation, I think it is fair to start with IE.

------
smhinsey
I happen to have read both that book along with several on programming in
cocoa (never done either professionally, I was just curious, so I claim no
authority) and I thought that the systems (both what you can do with
ironpython and wpf in general) turned out to be generally comparable in terms
features, albeit grounded in differing philosophies and idioms. That said,
what is the ideal to which WPF should aspire? If not Cocoa, then QT? Gtk?

I am curious mostly because I see a lot of this sort of nothing-new-under-the-
sun critique of WPF, and while I have not worked with it in any great depth,
what I've seen has been impressive enough to put doubt in my mind about such
statements.

~~~
StrawberryFrog
I'm not that concerned as to if WPF is novel. I am concerned if it is better
than Windows forms. And that it certainly is.

