
Ask HN: Non-technical employees don't get along with engineer - scxyz42
I&#x27;m the CTO of a small startup with 9 full time employees. We have 2.5 engineers - Me, a senior SDE hired a year ago, and a new UX designer who doubles up as a part time FrontEnd Dev. 4 non-technical employees have logged complaints that my full-stack developer is curt&#x2F;cold&#x2F;condescending although the designer and I get along with him just fine. I&#x27;ve drawn a pretty hard line in defending him thus far, but have been taking more and more fire from the CEO.
I&#x27;ve tried many process tweaks, 1:1 feedback, etc.  Do you guys have any ideas to de-escalate or help the team get along better with each other?
======
cjbprime
Perhaps unpopular opinion: it sounds like the senior SDE isn't working out.
Being non-condescending to other team members is a core part of the job. It
shouldn't be persisting after you tell them that it's a problem that's causing
serious conflict within the team.

There's a lot of previous discussion you could look up about whether to
tolerate "brilliant jerks" on your team. My take is we usually overestimate
how brilliant they are and underestimate how toxic it is to have a jerk
around.

~~~
drinfinity
Yes, agreed.

I apologise in advance for this non-PC and possible offensive remark, but I
see nice people in our company dealing with these types and it's starting to
bum me out.

The obnoxious types me and colleagues have dealt with are, in _my personal
opinion_, pretty obviously suffering from some type of Asperger and/or general
social maladaptive malady and while they should be treated with dignity, it is
not up to the rest of the company to adjust to _their_ problems.

~~~
slededit
If it is caused by a disability (e.g. Asperger) the ADA does require
reasonable accommodation - which in fact does make it up to the rest of the
company.

------
shostack
What are the roles of the four non-technical employees who have complained?
You mentioned elsewhere that they are submitting requests directly to this
engineer--what sorts of requests?

When I've encountered and had to help solve for this sort of thing in the
past, there was usually something deeper at the root of it. In one case it was
the fact that people on the marketing team were not able to formulate their
engineering asks to a sufficiently technical degree, or understand the ideal
workflow of an engineer. So what would happen is engineers would get
frustrated fielding these requests because they lacked most of the necessary
information needed to build anything, and were constantly asked to support
multiple significant scope changes throughout the process.

That would understandably frustrate many people. But once we identified that
as one of the big issues, we were able to develop process to help address it.
Things like documenting commonly asked technical specifics up front, or
setting milestones and making sure everyone understood the impact of changing
things helped streamline things.

Another big piece of that was having someone who could bridge that gap from a
communication standpoint. That ended up being me for a lot of it, which was
fun since while I am a marketer, I'm fairly technical and usually get on very
well with engineers. If two people can't speak a common language, sometimes
the easiest solution is to work through a third person who can translate.

~~~
scxyz42
Customer support and marketing. Requests were more fluid but have since been
formalized, e.g. different bug templates to help clear out some of the back
and forth.

Thanks for this - sounds like we're trying to do some things right.

~~~
shostack
Yep, I'm guessing there may be similar issues. Hard to say without more
context or hearing examples of some of the offending remarks. For example, if
an engineer is explaining something technical in a condescending manner to
someone non-technical who may struggle to grasp it, that's on the engineer and
their communication skills.

However if they are being curt and coming across cold and frustrated because
they keep asking for the same things every time and don't get them, that's a
process issue and an easily solved one at that.

Sounds like you may benefit from digging deeper into people's issues on this
to identify how much is really communication style and skills vs. symptoms of
process issues.

------
voycey
Question - are the non-technical employees requesting work done by the senior
developer directly to him?

Some developers are often just that - hard headed coders, if they haven't come
from a role or a background that has required them to "Customer Facing" then
you need to re-evaluate the reporting chain or if it is crucial that they be
"customer facing" then you need to broach the subject with him that he needs
to understand how to talk to them.

As CTO of a small company you should head up the engineering team, if required
you will need to act as the go between to get the requirements distilled into
a format your senior dev can then action with the rest of the team.

If you cant absorb this responsibility then you need to get a project manager
of some sort in to manage it :)

~~~
scxyz42
Thanks! We're so small that it used to be a direct request. Since, I've tried
to be more of a buffer / create better processes - but you're right. I can
probably try to do more.

------
cimmanom
Is the engineer aware of what it is about their communication style that's
making others uncomfortable? Even the person most motivated to change won't
improve if they don't know what constitutes "better" or "worse".

There are different communication cultures even within a country or a region.
For instance, engineering culture (in many communities or companies) accepts
bluntness and directness in ways that the general culture often does not. Or
people who grew up on the US coasts are often uncultured to more blunt,
direct, fast-paced communication styles than those who grew up in the Midwest
or South. Some families treat (friendly) confrontation and debate as a game,
whereas others interpret it as conflict or rudeness or even power struggle.

If you grow up communicating in one style, you may not be aware that other
people use other styles. And even if you are, you may not be aware of how that
causes them to interpret your own style.

So don't just tell your engineer "change". Give him training in the
communication style you expect him to use in the workplace.

If you haven't already, I suggest you get some concrete examples from the
employees who submitted the complaints. Then spend half an hour to an hour
once a week role-playing similar conversations with your engineer. During
these sessions, give clear feedback on what comes across as blunt or rude or
condescending (and why), and suggest different phrasing or approaches that
might be more diplomatic. Keep doing this until you no longer have to suggest
significant changes.

------
afarrell
> curt/cold/condescending

This is a rather broad and not very actionable criticism. Can you get more
specific feedback? For example, something of the form "In situation X, you
did/said Y, and that led me to think Z" is more actionable. Also, it is useful
to pay attention to the classification problems that your engineer faces.
There is a sometimes a balance between being condescending by giving someone
info they already know and not providing enough context for an explanation.

The book "Thanks for the Feedback" [1] is a good read and Erika Carlson's
talk[2] from Lead Developer UK is a good watch.

[1] [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thanks-Feedback-Science-
Receiving-W...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thanks-Feedback-Science-Receiving-
Well/dp/1611762510)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsfNS9HSWQs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsfNS9HSWQs)

------
cupcake-unicorn
I'm going to throw out a possibly unpopular opinion, because I have a feeling
this is exactly what was going on at my old workplace.

What is the gender of the 4 employees who have a problem with the senior SDE?

At my workplace I was the only female employee and when I ever had complaints
against someone for being condescending/etc the response was similar to yours,
"But I never had that experience with him. He's a nice guy."

Understand that you only see one side of your senior dev. You don't get to see
how he interacts with women or other minorities.

An example I like to give is that even Senator Obama experienced people being
fearful and locking their cars when he went out to the parking lot late at
night. That's an experience that white people just don't have, and imagine
being the only one to experience that or report that in a group of other
people who have never ever been the target of such behavior. "But I never
noticed it!"

If this does turn out to be the case I'd suggest you have a serious chat about
diversity in your company. I ended up leaving tech due to my similar
experience in my last company. Saying, "We're pretty diverse for a group of
white dudes" isn't enough. Listen to the minorities at your company and their
experiences and don't invalidate them or dismiss them because you haven't
experienced it. You could learn a lot and save some people from leaving the
industry.

~~~
scxyz42
I understand your pain - I'm a female CTO.

Gender of the 4 is mixed and we have a pretty even gender ratio overall.

~~~
DoreenMichele
Let me respectfully suggest that part of the problem may be _your_ gender. Men
and women both expect women to do emotional labor on behalf of others, often
to an unreasonable degree.

If that is a factor, there's no easy solution. But if it is a factor, it may
help to be aware of the issue. If you aren't familiar, _emotional labor_ is
kind of a hot catch phrase and there are articles and discussions out there.

I tend to be good at the emotional labor thing and it has a history of getting
me imposed upon to an unreasonable degree. People often expect me to deeply
respect them and kiss their boo-boos and make them feel okay about everything.
This often occurs while I am being treated very disrespectfully and can't get
my needs met.

If you are the CTO, why is peacemaking your job? That isn't usually one of the
official duties of a CTO, is it?

If that is the issue, you will need to learn to alter your behavior so people
feel less free to impose in this manner. You will also need to think through
just how much you need to be interceding in the relationships of employees.

You can work on doing ice breaker exercises and team building exercises etc.
But if the real problem is that you are being viewed as the team mom and
people want you to fix everything and expect perfection, that may not fully
resolve the issue.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Doreen,

I've read your comments here for quite some time and they are generally
insightful and I usually agree with you, but this time I think that as the
CTO, peacemaking _is_ her job. At least, it would be in such a small
environment.

It's really less about peacemaking and more about making sure that her team
integrates well with the rest of the company. I agree with the poster who said
to at least make sure he understands what he's doing that is causing a
problem. I've been in his position and had absolutely no idea what people were
complaining (behind my back!) about.

As a team lead, it falls on my shoulders to deal with similar personnel
issues. I sometimes have to point out to my devs that their behavior is being
perceived as rude or uncaring to people outside the team. In our little
company without an HR dept, it's up to me to figure out how that can be
resolved.

As my wife likes to say "you can't talk to everyone else like they're all
engineers." :-)

~~~
DoreenMichele
_it falls on my shoulders to deal with similar personnel issues._

Sure, but you aren't right this minute finding it so impossible to deal with
that you need to get advice from internet strangers on how to handle it. And
perhaps one factor is gender.

People often set different expectations for women than for men. Those
expectations can be unreasonable.

When my oldest son was a little boy, he came to me every single day, multiple
times a day to ask if he could use the bathroom. I was all sweetness and light
and reassured him that of course he could. That's what it was there for.

This was an aggravating and enormous imposition. Both my kids have special
needs. I have health problems. I was chronically short of sleep. No amount of
reassuring him that he could use the bathroom any time he wanted ever put a
stop to him nagging me for warm fuzzy reassurance.

After two years of this, I began replying "No, you cannot use the bathroom.
Tie a knot in it. In fact, I plan to have both bathrooms removed."

He would look at me with gears turning behind his eyes, then walk off to the
bathroom. After a week or two, the questions stopped. He just began using the
toilet without first imposing on me for reassurance that it was okay.

My son had never done the same thing to his dad or anyone else. He only
imposed on me -- endlessly -- for completely unnecessary feel good reassurance
about ten times a day every single day until I stopped feeling obligated to
provide that for bathroom trips.

Women are often expected to be bottomless dispensers of positive emotional
experiences to a degree and in a manner that is not typically expected of men.
Her peacemaking duties may not be what you are experiencing. And it is worth
considering the possibility that employees are imposing excessively upon her.

~~~
scxyz42
There is an expectation on me to be a mediator, and gender (in addition to my
personality type) could play a role. I'd like to think that's a strength, but
I will be more cognizant of accidentally creating too many emotional
dependencies. :)

Thanks for your perspective - I really appreciate it.

------
barrystaes
Good chance that all involved share the same common goal (startup success) and
they should use that as a base to respect each other and colaborate.

From your experience with him I guess this employee does not intend to be
curt/cold/condescending to other people, but might appear "cold" discussing
some technical subjects. Others might expect a "warm" conversation instead.

Lets call this conversation VS discussion. There's a place for both. Sometimes
even in the same meeting. But i tend to think when there is clarity
beforehand, its best for both parties. Even warm feedback can land as a cold
discussion if not handled with consideration.

------
danielovichdk
Okay, I will try to elaborate on my earlier comment.

Given the fact that it's a small company I will take it (from own experience),
that the process or agility around on how you produce software is blurred and
probably not totally in place.

The missing "boundaries" for some developers can be stressful and if a process
is missing that can lead to frustration.

When I lead teams I also try to "cut of" or act as a buffer to the business
side of the team, and have them focus and hold them accountable for what they
are good at (and that's often sales, marketing, budgets etc.). And let me and
the team do what we're good at.

The communication around these things most be done a proper professional
fashion. Down the line no company can function with a CEO that believes he/she
has a say in how a developer should act outside his own temple.

So many teams allow too much interference from the outside. They shouldn't be
allowed. Focus on what you and you're team is good at and have the rest of the
company focus on what they are good at.

~~~
scxyz42
The missing "boundaries" and blurred processes definitely play a major role.
When I led teams at a larger tech company, the thicker processes were part of
the buffer/liaison. In contrast, the lack of/lean amount of processes here for
the sake of agility makes this less of a white and black issue.

------
akulbe
It's going to kill morale if you keep that guy around. If they're talking to
you that much about him, there's probably a lot more they're talking about
that you never hear.

Fit goes further than skill, in my opinion. If you want to keep your non-tech
folks around, let that guy go, and hire for fit.

You'd be doing yourself massive favors.

~~~
scxyz42
Thanks!

------
mindhash
In my experience, its best not to get involved in behavioral aspects of team
being engineering lead. You need to get work done and such things change the
context of your conversation.

But if this is visibly affecting delivery quality or timeline then it makes
sense to get involved.

If it comes to that, I would defend my team member until proven guilty. Ask
for specific scenarios and then if they seem serious then just pass a word to
team member that there is heat around this issue. And he / she could have said
this or handled this way.

Sometimes people are what they are. It doesn't occur to them that they are
offending others.

You also can't expect them to change without patience n guidance. Keep sharing
scenarios and what he could have done better.

If this is behavioral problem then he would take time to come out of it.

------
EnderMB
Out of interest, where does the chain of command lie?

I've worked with people in the past that respect the chain o' command to such
a degree that they will follow everything a more senior member of staff will
say, but will both ignore and undermine what people on their level or below
say. I've also noticed a trend where they will respect the "workers" of the
office, but have little respect for Project Managers or anyone they don't
perceive to be battling on the front lines.

In the past, a good way to get around this was to ensure that everything that
needed doing was in writing. This way, everyone knew what was expected of
them, and it was much harder for someone to be confrontational or
condescending if any of this was in writing.

~~~
scxyz42
More explicit expectations makes sense. I'm his manager so others would have
to use indirect influence to get his help outside of sprint work items.

------
captain_perl
1\. Some people cannot accept it when somebody else ends a conversation first,
but that's their problem. If that's the case, ignore it. 2\. After that, the
big gun is, "If you know somebody better, let me know." That ends the ankle-
biting.

~~~
scxyz42
Thanks! I'll use that as a last resort.

------
dpeck
Get rid of the problem employee, toxicity will extend and it will hamper
communication and trust. If you’re having these problems with such a small
group that should still be in the “all for one one for all” stage it’s going
to continue and be much more painful to deal with down the line if you have
success.

Also if you’re starting to catch fire from your CEO (founder/cofounder) about
it that’s a good indication that it’s already leading to those problems and is
effecting your standing/trust with the rest of the company.

~~~
scxyz42
Good point - thank you!

------
chad_strategic
This if kinda of funny, because I was the used to be the jerk full-stack
developer. My reasons where the following:

1\. Job was to easy for me.

2\. The non technical people where not very bright. (seriously they where just
winging it.)

3\. I didn't care.

4\. Wasn't challenged.

5\. Non technical people treated me as a code monkey, when I first got there.

6\. I had the power. Even if the fired me, it would take them weeks to get
back up and running.

7\. As of right now, Developers have the power.

Oddly, enough I am not a jerk, but I didn't like being taken advantage of in
this particular situation.

------
soneca
_" although the designer and I get along with him just fine"_

It is very common that arrogant developers are condescending to non-tech
people and not to tech people, considering themselves a special breed of human
beings.

 _" I've drawn a pretty hard line in defending him thus far"_

Why? Do you have evidence that the SDE is right? 4 different complains on a 9
employees company seems to indicate that's not the case.

~~~
scxyz42
The minimal 'evidence' collected so far, I feel like can be interpreted as
miscommunication or a difference in style. I will try to gather more.

I agree though, 4/9 is concerning.

Thanks!

------
ecesena
Honestly, I think you should fire him, or the other 4 employees. At your
stage, you can't be distracted by this kind of issues.

You should also review your hiring process and see how you can avoid this in
the future, I can guess that you interviewed the technical people, and your
CEO the non-technical ones, and you (together) didn't catch this as a
potential issue.

------
danielovichdk
What does your SDE say to these allegations? Does he agree at all? Whats his
feedback?

~~~
scxyz42
He's very concise, a bit rough around the edges and got a dry sense of humor.
He told me he means well and has tried to be more verbose (slack is 1/2 of all
our communication). He's also tried to tone down the dry. He really enjoys
working with 2/4 folks who complained about him and wants to make it better.

~~~
kstx
Just throwing this out here, with pure speculation. I don't mean to offend
anyone or cause unnecessary friction.

I suffer from aspergers in some form or another(diagnosed by Dr.). While im
usually "normally" functioning, I happen to have wierd sense of humor, lack
some social skills and being too concise at times. These things crop up
usually when around extrovert people(like non-tech people stereotypically are)
and it can cause them to feel that I'm intentionally hostile towards them,
where as it's more about me(unconsiusly) feeling outside their social
wavelength. I don't want to be hostile towards others, but my capabilities for
social interaction often cause friction unintentionally, and some people are
more sensitive to take offense becouse of it. How people react to my actions
are also really varied, biggest factor(be my speculations) being their social
backgrounds(groups like family/friends/prev.
workplace/school/generation/culture).

Maybe what I'm trying to say that it might not be entirely fault on the sSDE.
Maybe the non-tech people haven't had experience working with someone who is
less extrovert than their social group before. Too many times i have seen that
introvert and socially "handicapped" people are left behind just becouse they
are different.

Not every anti-social behavior is malicous or intentional. People react to
different interractions differently. People can learn to accept peoples
differences and live with them. Working on their work relations is a good
start, since sSDE has said that he wants to make it better.

\--Sorry about my (personal) ramblings and bad writing(non-english speaker)

~~~
scxyz42
Thanks for your perspective - I appreciate it!

------
Gibbon1
> the designer and I get along with him just fine

> 4 non-technical employees have logged complaints that my full-stack
> developer is curt/cold/condescending

This is really bad news actually. Find a replacement for this guy and fire
him.

~~~
chris_wot
You're joking. It would have to be really awful behaviour to fire him.

~~~
Gibbon1
No I'm not joking at all.

That the guy kisses up and craps down is a serious problem that needs to be
dealt with by termination.

