
Ask HN: What type of restrictions does your employer have on side gigs? - bedros
whether it&#x27;s monetized or just a hobby<p>should you disclose it if there&#x27;s no conflict of interest?
======
losingthefight
I personally make it clear that side projects, monetized or not, are one of
the best ways to learn new skills, ways of thinking, and improve productivity.
I agree to sign non-compete and clauses stating that anything done outside of
the business requirements (I don't work hours, I work results kind of thing)
will not conflict with, impede, or otherwise negatively impact my position.
I've only had one employer in the nearly two decades that had an issue with
that, and ironically it was an organization that had pretty high turnover from
the reviews I read.

Whomever is paying me is paying me to do a job. They don't own my life, my
free time, or my hobbies. If they don't understand or support that, I wouldn't
bother going forward with them as it's simply not the kind of culture I would
want anything to do with.

Also, to the person who wrote about external income needing to be documented
with a ton of paperwork... if you are in the US, what about US Reserve
military members (which is a protected status)? Adjunct faculty positions?
Seems like the employer should not have any say on that kind of income.

~~~
AlchemistCamp
Have you ever worked at a big 5 US tech company?

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mieseratte
Work in government, have to fill out a reasonable one-page form documenting
other remunerative work I engage in. This specifically exists for conflict-of-
interest compliance. Should I choose not to, and they find out, it becomes an
ethics issue and I'm terminated.

Previously having worked in myriad startups and startup-like environments,
you'll get anything from "What you do in your free time is your business" up
to the classic "We own all IP created by you during employment." For the
latter, I always start by asking if that includes open-source work as I do
some from time-to-time. This is an easy way to engage them about the policy
without coming off as overly combative, and one can work from there if there
are concerns regarding side-projects.

A young me once inquired about open-source contributions, and was shocked with
an angry email from the CTO blathering on about how he has grave doubts about
my fit and dedication to the success of the company if I'm concerned about
outside work. The hiring manager immediately jumped in and defused, clarifying
that open-source is seen as a good thing at the company and it was a simple
mixup. Suffice to say that was a red-flag I should've heeded.

------
maxk42
Was interviewing with Automattic -- they asked me to sign a copy of their non-
compete. It was utterly draconian. If you wanted to write a book in your free
time it had to be approved by their legal department. I noped the fuck out of
there and got a great job that encourages employees to improve their skills
and develop their talents in their free time.

~~~
mtnGoat
i think that was a great choice and the same one i would have made. i think a
lot of these companies try to leverage their name on your resume for their
"owning" you, but i don't think that trade is fair at all.

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tacomplain
In my company, side projects are divided into two groups: products or toys.
Both can be done during work hours without problem (if you continue to deliver
your sprints, of course). Your work should always be deletable (you should
keep version control somewhere non local) and your peers should always be able
to see your code (asking or not, If it is in a company computer, everyone in
the company has access to it). We also incentivize presentation on new
technology or topics that emerged from the projects and usually people pitch
each other their projects for new contributors. Projects considered products
(that the programmer has started expecting profits at some point) should
consider our non compete policy: if the product is in the same field as one of
our products, our company has the right to be the first investor, with a
minimum of 5% and cap of 15%. The valuation process is a bit dense to explain
here, but several ex coworker are now partners with their own companies. The
system works well but we have to watch out for talent retention. Usually the
new companies are SaaS that replace part of our needed logic and cost us less
to use than our ex coworker salary.

~~~
ian0
Thats a very cool model. And a really good point here:

> Usually the new companies are SaaS that replace part of our needed logic and
> cost us less to use than our ex coworker salary.

Its a win-win to have the company as the new founders first customer too.

------
davismwfl
Large employers attempt to do this quite often, even in states that
specifically forbid it in state statue. Some states have laws that prevent
this behavior but it doesn't stop employers from trying to bully those without
knowledge.

I personally would be highly suspicious of any startup that was trying this
while simultaneously offering or paying you a below market wage. If a company
wants your attention they should pay to hold it, not threaten your job because
you take a side job to make more money or have a hobby.

Another similar policy to this is the "assignment of all inventions", related
and unrelated to the company, done on or off company time and even done using
personal equipment. Again, some states prevent this, and even in states that
don't have specific laws preventing it, generally I have seen the legal system
is remiss to allow employers these wide unfettered control over peoples
private lives.

Also, this is a reason you should write down every thought, idea or actual
stuff you have worked on as excluded works before signing any document about
inventions, non-compete etc. While I 100% disagree with the concept of these
policies, there are ways around them almost all the time if you plan ahead.

This is also always something up for negotiation when you are being hired. The
companies first response is almost always well this is the only way we hire
anyone, and your response to that is what matters. It is also your first look
at what the company really thinks of employees, if they care they'll figure a
way to work with you, assuming you aren't being unreasonable yourself. If they
are there to use you as a cog then they'll say no to all reasonable requests
and that should be your warning sign to walk. I had people tell me you can't
get more vacation back in the day when 2 weeks was the norm in the U.S. for
all new employees. And here I'd be hired and have 4 weeks the first year and
people were pissed cause they didn't negotiate it. Those are policies written
by people, not laws of nature, it is all on the table you just have to work a
little and be brave enough to push a little.

*edit -- fixed a spelling mistake and a repetitive word

~~~
brlewis
> "assignment of all inventions", related and unrelated to the company, done
> on or off company time and even done using personal equipment

This is such a big grab, I don't understand why they limit to inventions.
Shouldn't they also demand assignment of all creative work so that if you
write a novel on your own time and equipment they can collect all the
royalties?

~~~
StaticRedux
"inventions" is not used in the same context as you would use it when talking
about an inventor, like Tesla or Edison.

It's legalize. It depends on the language in the contract, but it usually
includes everything under the sun, including creative works like books.

Sometimes there is a clarification for anything that can be related to your
work, my current employer does that, but I've seen others without that. Which
basically says they own you and everything you do or even think while employed
by them.

~~~
brlewis
Sorry, I should have specified: This is in the United States. Here
"inventions" is specifically patentable stuff. See
[https://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/general-
inform...](https://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/general-information-
concerning-patents#heading-2)

~~~
StaticRedux
I'm in the US too.

Inventions is usually defined in the contract itself and does not necessarily
apply to patentable things.

This is just my personal experience, so take it for what it's worth, though I
do have a fair amount of experience with contracts and non-competes.

~~~
brlewis
That seems weird to me, that a contract would redefine a term that already has
a legal meaning, but there are weird things in law.

------
hluska
When I have been an employer, my position is always that I pay you for about
40 hours a week. I don’t own you, nor do I want to. I know that if you had
already solved the money problem you could do far better things than come work
with me. If you want to work on side projects in your spare time, great. If
you’re dedicated enough to your craft that you want to improve outside of
work, that’s amazing! But also, if you’d rather jog, rock climb, smoke weed or
what have you, it is your life. I’m glad I can help you live it. Thanks for
helping me live mine.

As an employee, I’ve had everything from ‘we could care less’, to ‘don’t
program when you’re not at work’, to ‘we own every single thing you do, dream
or think about.’

------
motohagiography
I wouldn't treat it as anything more than a risk assessment, and telling
people just implicates them and makes them responsible.

As a condition of investment, many investors require that companies have
blanket IP ownership over their employees brains.

If there is value you generate that doesn't go into your job, that's an
inefficiency managers would be obligated by their role to optimize out. The
good ones would probably rather not know, the worst will using monitoring and
surveillance to find out if there is some additional leverage they can use
against you.

On your way into a job, redline the contract so that any IP ownership clauses
are narrowly defined to the domain of the work so that if your fanfic novel or
interpretive dance show becomes an international phenomenon, your employer
doesn't get an option on the profits.

Be in a position to negotiate those contract clauses on your way into a job,
which means, don't be unemployed, and always maintain a pipeline of
opportunities when you have a job. Regarding the recruiters, you aren't
wasting anyone's time, they can only waste their own with unappealing offers,
so keep those conversations open.

In all the organizations I've been in, the approach to moonlighting was don't
ask, don't tell.

~~~
awinder
> If there is value you generate that doesn't go into your job, that's an
> inefficiency managers would be obligated by their role to optimize out.

That is not a managers job, and it has 0 to do with the results they're going
to achieve. I've seen this behavior & it's associated psychoses, but it's been
rare and again, it is literally psychotic behavior that should not be
normalized.

Manager's job is to focus on making their team members' 8 hours the most
effective that they can be. Any manager that isn't focusing on that is
basically choosing to have worse results with more animosity.

~~~
motohagiography
Of course it's psychotic, but that doesn't make it any less common.

------
wodenokoto
I work as an IT consultant and a midsized consultancy in a European country
with generally good workers rights and protection.

My understanding is they have full restriction. I have to ask for permission
to do any paid work, even completely unrelated, like working a bar at a
festival. They claim copyright on anything produced during my period of
employment, which to me seems bordeline inhuman.

They encourage open source work, but I think they can ask to have the company
name in the copyright / license section if they feel so inclined.

My impression is they don't really enforce it, it is more a blanket access for
if I do completing work, they don't need a second opinion to be right.

I still think that it is completely insane, but my union says it is normal.

~~~
Silhouette
There are other relevant considerations in Europe. For example, the working
time rules could make it reasonable for an employer to at least require
disclosure of any other paid work and potentially a power to object if it
would leave them in violation of the law through no fault of their own.

There's also an important distinction between work done during the period of
someone's employment and work done in the course of someone's employment, if
you're using the terminology common in the UK and I think various other
English-speaking legal systems. The latter is, IME, commonly accepted as a
reasonable standard, and roughly speaking means anything you do on work time
or using work resources belongs to work. The former is a much broader claim
and potentially includes anything independent of work as well, and is the red
flag that should give any prospective employee pause.

~~~
wodenokoto
> The former is a much broader claim and potentially includes anything
> independent of work as well, and is the red flag that should give any
> prospective employee pause.

I read it as the former, and it did give me pause, but my union said, that is
to be expected and I pay them money to complain on my behalf, so ...

The thing you mention about potentially violating working hour regulations
makes sense.

I should also note that I don't have a none-compete. When I quit I can
immediately start at any competing consultancy or even client. It's not all
bad

------
StaticRedux
Form an LLC, use a registered agent, put everything in the companies name,
don't tell your employer, profit. Nothing they can do about it. The odds of
them finding out are nearly non-existent unless you go around putting your
name on everything

------
pkteison
Monetized: Management must approve. Doubt they do, haven't asked.

Hobby: Not allowed to do anything similar to what employer does. Got an
official opinion from legal that employer programs, working on a videogame mod
is programming (although employer does not program videogames), so therefore
I'm not allowed to work on a videogame mod. I'm not certain the employee
manual agrees with the official opinion from legal, but I'm not really in a
position to be able to disagree.

So, well, no side gigs. It's just something you have to agree to for this job,
and it's a good job, so such is life. Maybe you could do it and hope they
don't find out, but they have clear documented grounds to fire you if they do,
so why risk a good job?

At least there isn't any non-compete. If I don't like the rules, I can always
quit and go work somewhere else. Before this west coast job, every prior
programming job I had was on the east coast and involved some sort of non-
compete agreement (they tended to be slightly limited, like you can't work at
these 5 competitors or you can't leave to work for a client, but 'slightly
limited' can actually be highly limiting when those 5 competitors are the best
employers for your specific expertise).

~~~
simplecomplex
> Got an official opinion from legal that employer programs, working on a
> videogame mod is programming

Don’t trust anything the company lawyer says. They work for the company, not
you. They will lie to you to protect the company.

“Everything you do is property of company” has never held up in court and is
just legal bullying. If you’re not actually stealing company IP and using it
at a competitor it’s all BS.

video game mods? Unless the company is a video game studio that’s a croc of
shit.

~~~
pkteison
This actually isn't the "all your base are belong to us" situation. This is
"we will stop employing you if you do [x]", not "we will own [x]". That's a
much, much, much lower bar. They are legally not required to have cause to
fire me, so being right doesn't help.

So, sure, I would own the videogame mod if I did it on my own time with my own
resources. But I could also be out of a job. Being right but unemployed
doesn't sound comforting - I like the job, and they've been up front about the
terms, and I'd rather quit if I find them sufficiently unacceptable than risk
being fired.

Edit: It actually looks like moonlighting is officially protected here, but
conflicts are still disallowed, so I guess it's possible it could end up in
court debating whether programming is a conflict. I already have the opinion
of one side in writing (yes, it is a conflict, they claim), but at least it
might be debatable.

Still, not particularly anxious to end up in court arguing that somebody
should be forced to continue employing me after I did something they told me
not to do on the grounds that they shouldn't have told me not to do it...
complicated mess.

------
metalliqaz
My employer (aerospace conglomerate) lays claim to anything I do while
employed. So if I had a side gig, they consider it theirs.

------
algaeontoast
Amazon has basically a zero tolerance policy. Although I did know someone at
Amazon who decided to challenge this by building a cam-girl site and waiting
to see if Amazon would really want to try and take it from him.

------
outworlder
Large employer, one of the oldest companies in Silicon Valley.

I can't:

* Be a competitor (in a big company, determining if you are one is harder than it seems, as they have so many projects)

* Use company time or resources in side gigs – even answering the cellphone to talk to a customer would qualify

* Also, the side job cannot negatively impact my position

There may be more things in the small print, but that's essentially what you
have to follow. They do not care about other sources of income, side projects
do not have to be disclosed.

------
CoffeePython
None. We sign NDA's for specific clients. Other than that, we don't have a
non-compete or similar clause prohibiting side work. In fact, it's encouraged.
We talk about our side projects openly. Also, if you want to have some company
backing on your project, you can get paid 50% of your effective hourly rate
for every hour you work on your side project if you agree to split potential
profits with the company. Kind of an in-house funding.

~~~
dlphn___xyz
where do you work? this is one of the major deciding factors i have in a new
employer

------
gtsteve
In our contracts we ask employees to explcitly declare anything they do i.e.
OSS projects, side-projects etc so we can explicitly declare we have no
interest in them. That protects everyone. We do of course have the
restrictions about not competing with us but as our product is extremely niche
anyway that's not been a problem.

------
croo
Mine states that I shouldn't have any side gigs. It's absolutely forbidden.
Exceptions may be and possible but must be explicitly told, agreed to, and
written in paper.

The reasoning is that one 40 hour job is enough to depelt a worker - if you do
a side gig you won't be able to put in the same quality work in your job.

------
wojciii
Large multinational. They own everything I do even in spare time according to
contract. I don't care and would fight in court if a problem arises with a
future project - no time for projects now anyway. Contract is probably invalid
in terms of these clauses in DK.

~~~
joshypants
+1. I'm permalancing and told HR when I was hired that I would go with the
flow for now, but this clause would prevent me from wanting to go full-time
here.

------
icedchai
Keep it to yourself. It is better to seek forgiveness. (You probably won't
have to.)

~~~
Silhouette
_It is better to seek forgiveness._

Not if your side project leads to a lucrative startup and your former
employer's lawyers decide some tenuous connection to your former position
makes it related work and claim the IP. In that case, it is definitely better
not to have signed a bad contract in the first place.

Of all the aspects of employment contracts, IP rights might be the number one
area where anyone working in a creative industry should have a real lawyer
review their contract before signing. Companies sometimes do some really
scummy things to their staff, and even if you're happy that the people you're
joining today are fair and reasonable, you typically have absolutely no
guarantee about who will buy the business out later and whether they will
continue to view your contractual obligations the same way.

~~~
icedchai
There is some risk, definitely. But the odds are it won't even come to their
attention.

------
trulyrandom
Before I signed, I was presented with a contract with one of those "you and
all of your thoughts are our property" clauses. Those never hold up in court
where I live, but I still had it changed to only include any work done during
work hours and work that conflicts with the interests of the company. I don't
have to report hobby projects that fall outside of that.

If I'd want to start monetizing a side project, I do have to report it, but as
long as there's no conflict of interest they're fine with it.

------
lojack
Absolutely none for me. Newer employees have to sign something, I think it has
more to do with building businesses using company resources.

Plenty of people are pretty open about moonlighting and side businesses and no
one seems to have a problem with it. A number of people have left on good
terms to work full time on their side businesses. It rubs people the wrong way
when some of those side businesses started poaching employees, but doesn't
seem like any legal action has ever been taken.

------
Xelbair
You can do whatever you want in your free time as long as you directly do not
compete with the company.

If you do have a neat offer that would compete(or any good and realistic
idea/offer), you can bring it to the company, get proper support and start a
new project with you as project manager(or you can get a dedicated one if you
feel like it).

For now i do work salaried, but i plan to swap to being paid by results, not
time.

Also - whole of IT gets a some free time for personal projects on Fridays.

------
legohead
(Video game business) Allowed as long as it doesn't conflict. Was suggested by
my superior to notify the company if I release something even if it's not a
conflict, just to cover myself. There are people here who have released side
projects no problem. One guy even quit and stated he was going to be a direct
competitor. We wished him well...

------
jetti
No policy at my current company. I was at a company in the financial markets
that made me report any side business I ran. They only required it, though,
because they had to comply with FINRA. If I failed to report my side business
and regulators found out I could have been suspended without pay for 6 months
and fined a lot of money.

------
Trias11
Its impossible to be compliant with legal BS of a large company. Less so to
try to get their approval to do anything or breathe.

I typically ignore their crap and do things i want and feel i need and care
about. Carefully threading the waters and knowing not to step on landmines.

Works wonders and serves me very well.

------
CM30
For the most part, none. The only thing any of my past employers have said
about side gigs is that you shouldn't be using company hardware/computers for
them. Other than that, no one cared one bit. Never came up in the contract or
at work.

------
drakonka
All of them.

Ok that was snarky...but generally there are a lot of restrictions on outside
tech-related projects where I am (and in some cases even non-tech-related but
tangentially related to our industry), both monetized and not.

------
simplecomplex
Why would you disclose it? Why would you ever tell an employer what you do on
your own time? Work two jobs, three jobs, whatever. You’re not a slave.

You’ve let people bully and manipulate you if you’re worried about what your
employer will think.

------
nemetroid
My employer (a large multinational) has very far-reaching restrictions, but
they are prefaced by "Except as limited by applicable law, ...", and most of
it is unenforcable where I live.

------
frakkingcylons
Have to fill out an electronic form just stating the nature of the side
project, regardless of whether it's a conflict of interest. I'm fine with this
honestly.

------
bb88
None. I'm paid by the hour. If they wish to lay claim to work that I've done
outside of the agreed contract, I'll bill them for all the hours worked.

------
_bxg1
Anybody have insight into Cloudflare's policy? I'm interviewing there but you
can never see a company's employee contract until you get an offer.

------
Trias11
None of my current employer.

CEO of startup 2 employers back was anal about it. Proved to be ____tard down
the road in other ways too.

------
berbec
I freelance in NYC and have non-poach with all my employers. I don't have non-
compete, I just can't steal clients.

------
probinso
they have complete ownership and redistribution rights to anything worked on
hours. no restrictions on work done off hours, other than direct competion.
general components that have been sectioned from the code base are usable for
personal projects.

------
droobles
My company encourages me to dogfood our product with my content sites. Pretty
cool!

------
bedros
I wonder what big tech comeanies policy are Like Apple, Google, Facebook, MS,
etc

~~~
brainfog
Google owns everything by default but you can file a request with info about
what you'd like to work on outside of work. If it's granted, you get to keep
the rights. It doesn't matter whether you're planning on making money from it
or not.

They're usually very reasonable about it, despite what you would expect from a
company that covers so much ground.

------
non-entity
I have to fill out mounds of paperwork if I receive any external income

~~~
magashna
To the IRS? Sure. To an employer? Why? It's none of their beeswax.

~~~
PeterisP
Probably because they signed a contract where they promise that they won't do
any side gigs without express permission of the employer.

------
dlphn___xyz
my previous employer was extremely tight with IP - so it pretty much barred
any technical side projects or research

------
codewritinfool
none, as long as i get my work done.

------
orangetang
"should you disclose it if there's no conflict of interest?" I think this will
vary very largely based on the employer.

