
Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S - semiquaver
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/business/credit-card-signatures.html
======
jimnotgym
In the UK cards moved to 'chip and pin' in 2006! Fraud in a 'customer present'
scenario is very low at our stores. The last fraud in fact was a foreign card
that didn't support chip and pin. I can't believe Visa and MasterCard have not
made it mandatory world wide...

...except card fraud lossed are recharged to the merchant so perhaps they
don't care?

Out of interest there is a special exception for disabled people who cannot
use a pin pad btw...

~~~
criddell
I'm visiting London this summer (I'm from Texas).

Normally, I pay for everything with American Express. Would you recommend I
get a different card for London? I wonder if there's a US card that support
chip and pin?

~~~
kozhevnikov
A lot of businesses in the UK/Europe do not accept American Express due to
higher fees. You would be better off getting a different card preferably that
supports contactless payments so you could use it on the tube and buses
instead of an Oyster card (remember to touch it on the way out as well).

[https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless](https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-
and-payments/contactless)

~~~
cjrp
A Revolut card supports chip and pin and contactless, I'm not sure if it's
100% launched for US customers yet though:
[https://www.revolut.com/us/](https://www.revolut.com/us/)

~~~
letsgetphysITal
Upvote and reply, because Revolut is a dream. Prepaid so fraud is minimum risk
(no possible overdraft), top up via mobile app, disable the card when you're
not using it. It's so convenient that I use it to buy from shady sites (game
keys, in game currency etc) and just disable the card once the purchase is
complete. I can't believe it's still free.

Sorry for gushing. I love Revolut.

------
Jolter
I found it odd that Mastercard would say "[...] it has been wanting to make
the change for years, but held off until cards embedded with computer chips
became common."

Whose responsibility is it to make those cards more common, if not
Mastercard's?

In Sweden, cards have only been issued with chips since the early 2000s, and
consequently merchants only very rarely use signature purchases. Why they
didn't push this sooner in the US is a riddle wrappen in a mystery...

The only place I've seen signatures used recently around here have been in
busy bars/nightclubs, where stressed-out bartenders don't want to wait for
online validation. I guess they get few enough fraud attempts at cocktails
that they don't care too much about validation.

~~~
bantunes
It might be that non-chip CCs had long expiry dates and only now they're being
replaced?

~~~
stevesimmons
This is not a new situation...

I was involved with Australia's chip-and-pin switch in 2006. At the time, we
were amazed how slow USA was getting rid of magstripe cards and signatures.
And that was 12 years ago...

------
blueside
Signatures haven't been required for credit cards in many other countries for
quite some time now.

I have often wondered why the US has historically lagged behind for everyday
banking. (e.g. email money transfers, chip enabled cards, pin number
verification, tap to pay)

~~~
kirillseva
because legacy tech wants to be amortised over long time periods. If you start
implementing things later you can pick the best tech. US banking was among the
first to become digital and thus still has to maintain technical choices of
the past

~~~
arghwhat
The resistance to change can be explained much simpler:

It benefits only consumers, while costing the banks and payment providers.
It's the same excuses for still having critical banking infrastructure written
in COBOL.

~~~
lucozade
> It benefits only consumers, while costing the banks and payment providers

Hogwash. Yes I know all bankers live in extinct volcanoes but one thing they
know a lot about is money. It is ridiculously expensive to support the US's
conservatism when it comes to finance. The lack of chip and pin pales into
insignificance compared to their addiction to paper checks, for example.

It would be completely in the banks' interests if everyone moved to internet
banking, NFC cards etc because the running costs and fraud costs are vastly
less. The problem is all those pesky, inertia-laden customers.

~~~
arghwhat
> The lack of chip and pin pales into insignificance compared to their
> addiction to paper checks, for example.

Paper checks are indeed a silly cost, but NFC provides banks no gain over
chip. Chip provides gain over magnet stripe by basically rendering skimmers
ineffective, but only _basically_ in that credit card fraud is still a big
business. Instead of skimmers, you use trojans or data leaks. Physical credit
cards also sell _very_ cheap on the black market.

In other words, NFC benefits only consumers, not banks. Chip benefits banks _a
little bit_.

> if everyone moved to internet banking, NFC cards etc

Those are very different things. Internet banking benefits banks directly
because they can shut down local branches and screw over customers (which they
do here—I have to drive to a different city to insert cash, and can only do so
within very limited hours).

NFC has no benefit to them (and might slightly increase fraud that the bank
will have to cover by allowing ~$40 withdrawals made wirelessly from quite a
far distance). Chip presents a pretty tiny benefit to them.

And most certainly, if you have a customer that already use a magnet stripe
credit card, giving them an NFC card will result in instant adoption of the
feature. We had some statistics when the feature rolled out—it was adopted by
everyone with a supported card on the spot. It's much different when you're
trying to change a check user to be a credit card user, but that might be more
of an issue with the consumer experience with the bank—credit and debit cards
over there sound so _cumbersome_ compared to our system where the bank issues
both credit and debit cards tied to your account. We don't have the "benefit"
card mess.

It's a bit too easy to blame user inertia.

~~~
skeletal88
The benefit of NFC for banks would be an image and PR boost, the bank could
say that they are the hip and trendy bank, come to us. Then other banks would
have to follow eventually.

Why else would banks in europe adopt NFC or contactless payments?

~~~
arghwhat
I am only speaking for a single EU country here. In DK, features such as NFC
are released for all banks simultaneously (that is, fully implemented and
functioning) through the national payment provider, who is also the issuer for
our national credit card type (which is a dual-type card by also being a VISA
for international use, and is tied _directly_ to a bank account). I don't
think they have a choice, and they certainly gain no PR or image from it.

Now, the national payment provider (a private company) does it because _they_
earn money on terminals, and want to fight to stay relevant in a world of
emerging mobile payment solutions such as MobilePay (a Danish mobile payment
solution of which over half the population are users).

The only exception to this rule appears to be Apple Pay, which is implemented
by some individual banks. I am not sure if this is due to platform
differences, or whether it is just the national payment provider fighting
back. I'd suspect the latter, as Apply Pay just see our dual-type credit cards
as VISA, sending _them_ transaction fees that the national payment provider
lose out on.

Other than that, banks here are only differentiated based on their financial
solutions, and maybe in some rare cases by their mobile/internet banking
solution (all have feature complete variants, but some are nicer than others).

------
skookumchuck
It turns out that a signature on a bank check means nothing. Neither does the
payer name on the check. Not the amount in cursive. Nor does the check paper.

The only things that are checked are the digits of the amount, and the account
number.

The rest of the check can be complete garbage, and the check will go through
and the bank will pay it. Then the banks will blame you, the account holder.

I learned this the hard way.

~~~
sleet
It amazes me that cheques are still used. I'm 36 and I've never issued a
cheque, I think I was issued a cheque book with my first account but never
used it.

~~~
jdavis703
Do you still live with your parents or rent from a slum lord who only takes
cash? Most landlords seem to only take cash or checks, it's really only the
national apartment companies that take online payments.

~~~
sleet
I live in New Zealand. Everything is done by electronic fund transfers. I have
been a renter, now I'm a landlord. I have also run businesses.

~~~
ajdlinux
Here in Australia I'm not even sure if my real estate agent would accept a
cheque for rent at all - I'm pretty sure they told us from the outset that
electronic payment was the only option they offer.

------
coldcode
I took my new chip enabled CC to Germany 3 yrs ago and paid for a train ticket
with it. The clerk said "ugh an American card" and had me sign some random
piece of paper. I felt like an antique.

~~~
gst
Most European cards use Chip & PIN with pin preference: If the terminal
supports it the card will ask for a chip instead of a signature. Chip-based
signature transactions are only used as fallback if the terminal doesn't
support pins (which is very uncommon).

Unfortunately most US cards don't use a pin code at all. There are a few
issuers that provide you with a pin code, but even in those cases there's
typically a signature preference and the pin code is only used as fallback if
the terminal doesn't support signatures. So if you're using a US card in
Europe pretty much the only places where you can use the pin code are
automated terminals (e.g., at train stations). At most other places you're
going to have to use a signature.

There are a few US issuers that issue Chip & PIN cards with PIN preference -
for example UNFCU and First Tech Credit Union. Those cards work great in
Europe, but are sometimes a pain to use in the US. E.g., if you're paying at a
restaurant and you have to go with the waiter to the terminal in some
backroom, because the terminal asks for the pin. That's not an issue in
Europe, as waiters usually carry mobile terminals with them.

~~~
rav
> Those cards work great in Europe, but are sometimes a pain to use in the US.
> E.g., if you're paying at a restaurant and you have to go with the waiter to
> the terminal in some backroom, because the terminal asks for the pin.

Huh? I have a European card (chip & PIN, PIN preference), and at restaurants
in the US I've always signed and never had to go to the terminal in some
backroom.

~~~
gst
Depends on the restaurant. Most of the times the terminal doesn't support PINs
and so it falls back to signatures. But some restaurants use PIN-capable
terminals in which case that issue occurs.

~~~
MatthewWilkes
I think it also depends on what buttons they press. I believe if they select
credit card it forces it to be a signature.

~~~
gst
That's only for US debit cards where a debit transaction requires a PIN code,
but a credit transaction prefers signatures. For credit cards with PIN
preference it shouldn't make a difference, as it's up to the card to decide
which mode to use (based on the options that are supported by the terminal).

~~~
MatthewWilkes
I know some terminals here in the UK lie about their capabilities, for example
they'll tell the card they're offline only even if they do support online
transactions.

------
macintux
Now if we could only eliminate them for everything else.

Buying and selling houses is excruciating thanks to the number of signatures
required.

I went to a closing on behalf of my then-wife who didn’t want to deal with it;
because it was her house we were selling, I had to sign all the paperwork on
her behalf, which involved a signature plus some additional verbiage. My hand
was in pain by the time we were finished.

~~~
matte_black
Most of the time a signature isn’t for verification but rather for
acknowledgment.

I don’t give two shits what you put down as a signature, I just want a record
that you consciously were present and signed something, so I don’t get accused
of trying to pass off something quietly that you never agreed to.

If I have some scribble you made at a time and place, the onus is on you to
prove it wasn’t you who did that.

~~~
baddox
My recent apartment lease was delivered online, but required me to go through
every page and click a button that filled in my initials in a cursive font.
It’s silly, yes, but I’m sure it’s just there to “prove” that I acknowledged
each page individually.

~~~
supertrope
That's the e-equivalent of initialing every page of a contract. The cursive
part is funny. Rituals change slowly. People trust moused signatures and fax
machine timestamps more than RSA public keys.

~~~
amyjess
If it's DocuSign, they actually let you pick your own font from a list, so you
can claim it's "your" handwriting because you chose it. And it's been a while,
but I think they let you mouse a signature and initials if you don't like any
of the fonts.

The funny thing is that for the last few years, I've been trying to make my
own handwriting resemble an italic serif font as much as possible, so I
actually do write like a font. But for everything except my signature. I never
sign anything the same way twice, and my signature is always just a random
scribble. Sometimes it's even an X.

~~~
zodiakzz
>I never sign anything the same way twice, and my signature is always just a
random scribble.

Is that legal? o.O

~~~
nolok
It is, but it means parent will lose any contractual dispute ever on the
signature proof part.

Here is how it goes in a dispute. You have A saying B signed a contract, and B
saying he didn't. It's A's job to prove he did first, and he indicate there is
a signature on there, and it's B's. So now it's B's turn, and he needs to show
it isn't his (if he does, then A become accused a making a false, and will
need to prove he didn't).

To do that, B needs to prove that he usually signs a different way, so he
provides other signatures everywhere to show it. Since parent signs
differently everywhere, he cannot show that he has a regular signature that
doesn't match the one on paper. In fact, it shows that any scribble CAN be his
signature as long as there is one, and thus the court will tend to assume the
one on the contract is his.

So parent's strategy is terrible, and you really shouldn't be playing that
game, because it doesn't catch you until it really does.

~~~
lmm
> To do that, B needs to prove that he usually signs a different way, so he
> provides other signatures everywhere to show it. Since parent signs
> differently everywhere, he cannot show that he has a regular signature that
> doesn't match the one on paper.

How often does that work? Presumably a fraudster would copy B's signature from
a receipt out of their trash or something (a priori they have no way of
knowing that B signs differently every time); how likely is it that someone
going to that effort would _not_ get a signature that's a "good enough" match
compared to B's normal signature, however careful B is about always signing
the same way?

~~~
nolok
The vast majority of cases where this relevant (99+%) are identity theft,
where you got the name / ssn /address through some mail or website or whatever
and uses that to contract things on someone else's name.

Also, finding differences in signature is much easier and much more advanced /
developed than you would think. Even if you copy mine after seeing it or
having a model, the places where you slow down your pen etc... Vary compared
to me, and that can be detected.

Is it possible with technology to make a perfect copy? Of course, but then you
just move to the next steps of the case, and you already cleared out the
majority of bogus cases.

So having a fixed stable signature is a very good thing for you the user, and
it always surprise me when I see people who think they played the system when
they screw their own protection like parent.

~~~
lmm
> Also, finding differences in signature is much easier and much more advanced
> / developed than you would think. Even if you copy mine after seeing it or
> having a model, the places where you slow down your pen etc... Vary compared
> to me, and that can be detected.

How often is this actually effective/useful?

------
combatentropy
"Mikiah Westbrooks, the owner of Brix, a wine bar in Detroit, said she worried
that skipping signatures will affect her workers' tips."

May tips disappear next.

~~~
toephu2
Yes can we please get rid of tipping and pay waiters and staff what they
should be earning? Build the price into the menu and let the market decide the
price. Too expensive? You will lose customers. Too cheap? You will have lines
out the door and you know you can increase prices.

The rest of the world does not tip (Europe & Asia). Only in North America is
this awkward tipping practice still a thing.

~~~
sitepodmatt
Tipping still happens in Europe and SE Asia it's just not silly like North
America. In the UK we'd leave a few pounds typically, let's say table bill was
47gbp, you have be a shameless mingebag to collect the 3gbp change if you were
happy with the meal and service. But we don't subscribe to the non sense of
10% tip if unhappy, 15-20% if happy, if crap you don't leave a tip or pay
service charge.

~~~
gambiting
Most importantly, you don't have to tip in the UK. It's appreciated but
literally no one minds if you don't.

~~~
nmeofthestate
I've never had a meal out in the UK (with different people, family, work, etc)
where a tip wasn't left, unless possibly when service was really bad.

~~~
gambiting
Sure, and I leave tips the vast majority of the time too - but I've had
situations where I had no cash on me, the card machine didn't accept a tip, so
I just left without feeling bad about it, it's not a big deal.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Not to you I guess. The server has only a very fixed opportunity to get tipped
in a shift. To miss out on one is actually significant. Not to mention
depressing.

~~~
gambiting
And what am I supposed to do about it?

My point is - in US not tipping felt like being an absolute asshole, to a
point where people would be upset - they grew up in a culture that values
money above all else and not being tipped is I don't know, an equivalent of
being spat in the face? In UK I've never felt that way. I've had perfectly
good meals that I didn't tip on, just like I did in France, Spain or Germany
and it never felt like the server _expected_ a tip. They might be a bit
disappointed that they didn't get one, but that's their problem. I'm
disappointed about a lot of things but that doesn't mean I'm entitled to them.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
So its not up to you to enter a restaurant prepared to pay for the meal? You
can do lots about it; in fact nobody else but you can do anything about it.

I'd rant about "this generation is so entitled" but hey that post says it all.

~~~
gambiting
>>So its not up to you to enter a restaurant prepared to pay for the meal?

I have paid for the meal. At the end of my visit I was given a receipt and
paid the indicated price - what else do you want? If the server is
disappointed they didn't get a tip, then I think I know who is entitled in
this relationship, and I have a very strong suspicion it's not me.

>> in fact nobody else but you can do anything about it

I pay my employees a good wage - so why can't the restaurant owner do the
same? It's not up to me to make sure that a waiter is satisfied with their job
- it's their employers problem, just like I have to take care of my own
employees.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
There it is - the deliberate explaining away of personal responsibility to
make oneself feel better. The last comment gives away how we all know the
first is false.

The restaurant owner in America does _not_ pay a good wage, because tipping is
a thing and the market adjusted. Not tipping for service is victimizing the
least powerful person in the relationship. And the need to make it 'ok' is
self-serving doubletalk.

A famous dude said "I _will_ judge you by how you treat the least powerful
person in the room"

~~~
gambiting
>>The restaurant owner in America does not pay a good wage, because tipping is
a thing and the market adjusted.

The market would adjust itself overnight if everyone stopped tipping, and I'm
sure even you can see that.

On my end, what can I do to stop _this_ country becoming more like America in
terms of tipping? Well, not tip of course, in which case it won't become
expected and necessary to support shitty business practices. Amazon has
"suggested" tipping for drivers now. Uber suggests tips. Deliveroo expects
tips. It is imperative that if you live in UK you select ZERO on all of these.
If you enter any value above zero you are sending a clear signal to Amazon etc
that they can pay their drivers shitty wages _because_ the customer is willing
to subsidise them. Is an Uber driver going to feel sad they got zero tips that
day? You bet they will - and I still couldn't care any less, their personal
job satisfaction should not be subsidised by me.

But I've gotten away from my original point - yes, I recognize that in US the
market is adjusted for tipping. But my original comment wasn't about US - it
was about UK, where - to my relief - tipping isn't a requirement. Fortunately
I can still pay only as much as the bill says and not feel bad about it in the
slightest, because I know the person serving my table does not rely on my tips
to survive. And like I said above - I do tip when the service is good at
restaurants. I just don't want it to become a norm like in the US of A.

------
ChuckMcM
For a long time I would put 'see id' on the signature line of the credit card
suggesting that if someone where trying to use it the vendor would ask to see
identification and that would alert them if it wasn't me using the card. And
then it became clear it was trivial to just print a new card and I stopped
even caring about the signature. And now a squiggle is all I leave if they
insist.

So now I find I can get impatient when someone is painfully trying to recreate
their exact signature using a digital signature pad that could never possibly
have the resolution to do it justice.

~~~
recursive
I haven't signed a credit card in about a decade. I sign the receipts, but not
the cards. That's got to be thousands of transactions by now. No one cares.

------
paul7986
Also please make handing me a receipt extinct too or only if requested.
Especially at drive thru(s) where the receipts become trash I later have to do
work .. aka clean up this annoying trash in my car.

~~~
unethical_ban
Nope. They have to give you proof of what you bought for the thousands of
times a day across the country there is a quarrel with the order.

~~~
paul7986
Use Apple Pay or Android Pay ... you see the charge right on your home screen
and view your transactions whenever.

The receipt needs and will go the way of the dodo bird, credit card signatures
and etc...

~~~
astura
Can I submit that with my expense report to get reimbursed for my business
expenses?

~~~
paul7986
Sure and in time you will be able to.

It's going to take time for payments to all go digital but they will. Whipping
out your phone and swiping it and then your done is way quicker and easier
then the current payment UX we are doing now.

~~~
astura
If it's not an itemized receipt its not going to be accepted for an expense
report unless the charge is very, very small. (I think my company is less than
$25 doesn't require a receipt) I'm not going to screw around with being unable
to prove my business expenses and being potentially liable for paying them
personally.

Even if they were itemized, I question if my company would accept it over the
"official" receipt. Anyway, in this case you are just talking about moving to
digital receipts, which is surely convenient, but its not "go[ing] the way of
the dodo bird," it's "going digital."

The current failure rate of mobile payments is currently much too high for me,
personally, to move them them. I love the idea in theory but currently the
execution is poor. Its just embarrassing for me to be standing there fiddling
around with my phone for 60 seconds so its not even worth attempting when I
know my credit card will always work.

------
bambax
> _For nearly a decade, Doug Taylor, a sales manager who travels often for
> work, has signed credit card receipts with a doodle of a dog wagging its
> tail._

Well, this story/hoax/experiment from the late 90s was at the time the
funniest thing I had ever read online:

[https://web.archive.org/web/20130120184305/http://www.zug.co...](https://web.archive.org/web/20130120184305/http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit_card/)

------
jpm_sd
Just this morning, my 5yr old daughter asked me "Daddy, why did you do just a
scribble!?" in a scandalized tone of voice

~~~
zinckiwi
I had to sign approval for a field trip for my daughter once. Her teacher
returned it with her the next day because it needed to be "a real signature."

------
alkonaut
I once saw a cashier compare the signature on the back of the card (There is a
little field for "signature" on the back of credit cards) - to the one I
signed.

When I noticed I hadn't signed my card he said he couldn't accept my purchase,
so I had to sign the card first, then he could compare the signature...

~~~
jamiethompson
In the UK cards still have a signature strip on the back and if a merchant
notices you haven't signed your card they legally have to refuse to accept it.

I rarely remember to sign my cards and this tripped me up one time last year
when trying to return something to a store which I'd bought online with my
credit card.

I had to leave the store, buy a pen, sign the card and re-enter the store.

~~~
alkonaut
> I had to leave the store, buy a pen, sign the card and re-enter the store.

That's exactly what I did too. And yes, this was when visiting the UK. I had
no idea the strip on the back of the card was for comparison, never seen it
used elsewhere. Would be interesting to hear the person who thought that the
signature-comparison thing was a good idea explain how they were thinking.

~~~
Jolter
It's because in some countries, not everyone has an ID card on them at all
times.

(Backwards, I know, but them's the breaks...)

~~~
alkonaut
That's why we have PINs. If not everyone can be asked to get ID, and not every
store can be asked to get chip+pin gear then stores should still not pretend
to do some identification charade based on doodling.

------
kevindong
My apartment's leasing office accepts UPS/USPS/FedEx/etc. packages on my
behalf when I'm not available. Whenever I go in to pick up a package, they ask
me for both my ID and my signature on a tablet. Immediately after I tap the
'Confirm' button, I get an email with a PNG of the signature I just "signed".
When I first moved into my apartment, I made _some_ effort to give my regular
signature. Nowadays, I just make a couple waves with a single finger movement
which looks like nothing out of the alphabet. The mailroom staff really
couldn't care less how I sign since they've already looked at my ID.

I always wonder what the point of the signature is in this scenario.

~~~
zaarn
The point of a signature isn't identity proof, atleast not primarily. The
primary purpose is conscious acknowledgement of whatever you signed.

------
u801e
It would be nice if they would start requiring a PIN.

~~~
pmorici
The kind of fraud prevented by a PIN enabled chip card is supposedly pretty
rare. What would be more useful is a standard for browser attached chip card
readers to bring the anti-fraud protections of a chip card to everyday
Internet transactions.

~~~
rkeene2
This already exists. If EMV specified an X.509 certificate instead of a
proprietary one, then we could be doing card-present transactions over the
Internet right now thanks to TLS client certificates.

~~~
dfox
The RSA certificates used in EMV are not used to authorize transactions, but
only to authenticate card to the terminal (and optionally to encrypt
communication between pin pad and the card). Only effect of using full-blown
X.509 for that would be that the certificates will be three times larger.
Transactions are "signed" with issuer-specific symmetric algorithm (the
specification AFAIK recommends CBC-MAC and HMAC), original motivation for this
constructions seems to be backward compatibility in the sense that the
algorithm can be designed such that it produces 8 digit decimal numbers that
can then pass through various backend systems in field originally intended for
swipe card online authorization code.

And by the way nothing technically prevents the issuers to combine EMV
application with some PKCS#11 applet with X.509 certificate on the same
physical card. EMV is in fact to some extent explicitly overdesigned to allow
not only this but even multiple EMV "cards" on same physical chip.

One interesting idea would be to do EMV transaction over the internet by just
forwarding the PDUs sent to the card over the internet, but it has lots of
subtle usability and security issues to be really practical.

~~~
rkeene2
There is definitely nothing that prevents another applet (JavaCard, not
PKCS#11 -- that's just a generic interface) from running on smartcards
currently running the EMV applet. Or any other smartcard from running more
than one applet -- this is a result of ISO7816 more than EMV.

But my point is that if EMV had chosen to use X.509 instead of inventing their
own certificate format then we could re-use the existing infrastructure with
zero cost.

Passing arbitrary APDUs from webpages to your card isn't a great idea and it
will be SLOW since it will require multiple round-trips -- it's already slow
enough just reading objects from smartcards. This is the mechanism used by
Citrix/MS Remote Desktop, which is to forward a PC/SC connection -- this has a
disadvantage that the remote side must have drivers and is also real slow, but
the advantage that the resource can be used for anything, just like it were
local.

For what it's worth, I'm the author of some smartcard middleware (CACKey) and
have worked with the EMV specification and EMV applets to a lesser degree.

------
ireadfaces
In india, a pin is mandatory for all the purchases even when there were no
chip cards. Uber had some trouble because it could not charge credit cards
like they do in US, as our cards needed two factor auth.

------
emmelaich
I haven't used a signature for a credit card transaction in at least 10 years.

I was somewhat amazed to see it was still I thing when I visited the US
recently.

Strictly speaking it's still a thing in Australia, but there are always better
options -- chip, pin.

------
6t6t6t6
Once in the UK, the cashier didn't want to take my credit card because there
was no signature on the back.

I wondered, which kind of graphology training do Tesco cashiers go through in
order to be able to identify a fake signature?

~~~
Mindless2112
For Visa, the merchant should require your card to be signed because a card
with no signature is invalid. Other credit card companies are probably the
same.

> _Unsigned Cards_

> _While checking card security features, you should also make sure that the
> card is signed. An unsigned card is considered invalid and should not be
> accepted. If a customer gives you an unsigned card, the following steps must
> be taken:_

> _• Check the cardholder’s ID._

> _Ask the cardholder for some form of official government identification,
> such as a driver’s license or passport. Where permissible by law, the ID
> serial number and expiration date should be written on the sales receipt
> before you complete the transaction._

> _• Ask the customer to sign the card._

> _The card should be signed within your full view, and the signature checked
> against the customer’s signature on the ID. A refusal to sign means the card
> is still invalid and cannot be accepted._

> _• Ask the customer for a different signed Visa card_

> _“See ID”_

> _Some customers write “See ID” or “Ask for ID” in the signature panel,
> thinking that this is a deterrent against fraud or forgery; that is, if
> their signature is not on the card, a fraudster will not be able to forge
> it. In reality, criminals often don’t take the time to practice signatures.
> They use cards as quickly as possible after a theft and prior to the
> accounts being blocked. They are actually counting on you not to look at the
> back of the card and compare signatures; they may even have access to
> counterfeit identification with a signature in their own handwriting._

> _In this situation, follow recommended steps listed above under Unsigned
> Cards._

[https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/card-
accept...](https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/card-acceptance-
guidelines-for-merchants.pdf)

~~~
marssaxman
I stopped signing credit cards several years ago, as an experiment; how long
will it take someone to notice?

I'm still waiting.

~~~
jamiethompson
I never do either. It happened to me last year. Possibly only because the guy
was a trainee and was literally going by the book though.

~~~
kstrauser
I worked the night shift at a hotel in college. I turned down a "SEE
ID"-signed card once, where the guy started the transaction with "hey loser,
got a room?" to amuse his girlfriend. Turns out that's an excellent way to get
me to be nitpicky about the rules.

------
mrarjen
Every time I'm in Germany I'm baffled that they use signatures quite often in
order to pay... basically copying the signature that's on their cards. It's
quite silly as when you'd steal someones card you'd pretty much just be able
to use it to pay for things, given you can copy a signature.

It's quite the contract with the Netherlands, but then again about 10 or so
years ago I wasn't able to identically copy my signature and was unable to get
a new bank card... luckily I didn't have this issue online filling out a form.

~~~
dx034
In Germany, payments with signature are legally just a direct debit (that's
the small contract you sign on the bill, the reason there's so much text on
there). If the card was stolen, the merchant takes the risk. The account
holder can get the money refunded for a very long time (think 3 months but at
least several weeks after the monthly statement).

Most stores have an automatic system where they require pin if a payment has
bounced before and in random intervals. But using the direct debit system
instead of PIN is so much cheaper that even higher fraud rates don't matter
much.

------
jakecopp
We Australians are two steps ahead - I barely even use a pin now! I use
PayWave (NFC) nearly all the time and often businesses find it strange when
you want to insert or swipe your card.

~~~
stephen_g
You generally still need a PIN for payments over $100 though.

But in general you can't actually sign anymore, you have to either use PayWave
or chip and pin.

------
stevep98
There’s something missing from this article.

When you sign a receipt, you’re not just providing a sample of your signature
for comparison against the one on the card. You are signing a document,
usually saying that ‘I agree to comply with the terms of the cardholder
agreement’

If this is no longer necessary, the card issuers must have determined that
they have other legal agreements which cover purchases, and that the signature
on each transaction is not necessary.

Also missing is a discussion of why PINs are not seen by the banks as an
obvious next step.

~~~
jjeaff
Where does it say on the receipt that I am agreeing to the cardholder
agreement?

This sounds like the old myth that "if you don't sign the back of your card,
you can't be held liable for the debts you incur if you contest it later."

This is of course not true.

~~~
jkaplowitz
It depends on the receipt, but many receipts do say that you agree to pay for
the purchase in accordance with the cardholder agreement, or some such
wording. This has been decreasingly common in recent years, and I don't know
the requirements, but it's not gone.

You're right about the old myth you cite. The cardholder agreements are
usually accepted either by signing the card or by using it.

~~~
ajdlinux
The wording is highly dependent on the country. I don't think I've seen that
in Australia in a long long time, on the rare occasion that I've had to sign
rather than use PIN or contactless, but I've been in Asia for the past three
weeks and did a lot of signing for my card with wording that sounds like that.

~~~
jkaplowitz
Most of my experience with this is in the US.

------
tetrep
I've been drawing a horizontal line, sometimes with a slight arch, for years
now. I almost never get a reaction and when I do, it is at most a laugh or
giggle. Nobody cares (not that they should). Anything I scrawl is (more or
less), by fiat, my signature _.

I'm glad we can finally stop wasting time (and resources, for physical
signatures).

_This is especially fun with e-signatures in California: “Electronic
signature” means an electronic sound, symbol, or process attached to or
logically associated with an electronic record and executed or adopted by a
person with the intent to sign the electronic record.

[https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=1633&lawCode=CIV)

~~~
letsgetphysITal
I write "Check I.D.". Merchants have typically been good at asking for some,
especially the older ones. Teens and trainees tend to mumble and just process
it anyway.

The thought process is that my UK drivers license has my picture, full name,
and signature. The merchant looks at the ID and sees my photo next to my name,
checks it with the name on the card to see if they match, then checks the
signature against that on the ID. Unless a thief has the same name as me, they
can't use the card as either the photo or the name won't match. The signature
doesn't matter as it will be caught in fraud alerting / rejected by the bank.

~~~
kstrauser
One problem with this is that your credit card isn't technically valid unless
it's signed with your actual signature. Piss off the wrong clerk who's having
a bad day, and it would be completely within their right to deny the sale (or
car or hotel rental).

~~~
letsgetphysITal
I understand that, and it's a risk I'm willing to take. I'd rather find out
that a person is an ass before I give them my money than after. There's always
another store, another car dealer, another hotel, another vehicle rental
chain. It's likely that the after-sales service will match, or be worse than,
the pre-sales service. I'd rather not give them my money at all than have to
fight for recompense after the fact.

~~~
kstrauser
I don't think that's a reasonable attitude. Ignoring the signature line, even
if common, puts a company at much greater risk of eating any fraud committed
with it. If an unsigned stolen credit card is recovered, its owner has a very
easy claim against any stores that accepted the thief's signature: "obviously
they _didn 't_ check the back of the card, now did they?" It feels a little
entitled to insist that a merchant who wouldn't accept an unsigned card is a
bad vendor giving bad service.

~~~
letsgetphysITal
An opinion doesn't need to be reasonable. I'm aware it's not the _correct_ way
to do things, but it provides me and my money with a little more protection
IMHO. No card thief will hand over a card with "Check I.D." written in the
signature strip to a clerk, just in case it's one that will ask. If the clerk
does as asked, they verify everything is in order. If they process it anyway,
it falls back to the remainder of the fraud protections available; heuristic
monitoring at the bank / card processor, regularly checking bank statements
etc.

One thing I'd like to challenge is that the card isn't valid unless it is
signed; Technically the valid signatures for my cards are "Check I.D."; the
act of signing makes the card valid, just as if you sign a contract with
"Mickey Mouse" you are still contractually bound by its terms. You are treated
as assuming the persona of "Mickey Mouse" or "Check I.D." while signing; it's
the act that is important.

Just don't tell the card thief that ;)

------
sandworm101
Signatures have never had anything to do with identity. They are a physical
manifistation of ones willingness to contract. They draw the line between
drafts and final contract language. The action counts, not the image.

That signatures are somwtimes compared is secondary, akin to comparing paper
types or forensic prints. Contracts are not like a signed bat. They do not
become worthless because you forget to cross your T.

------
MisterTea
A friend signs all of his transactions with "poop" as it is his way of
demonstrating that signatures are a complete waste of time.

------
CodeTheInternet
Somewhat related, instead of signing the back of your credit card write "ASK
FOR ID". Many merchants that otherwise wouldn't ask but look at the back
instinctively tend to ask when they see it. I reinforce the behavior by
thanking them. The only problem I've encountered is some USPS offices refuse
to run a card without a signature on the back.

------
StillBored
Actually, doing away with the signature seems a bit odd, given all the machine
learning flying around. An electronic signature that records the speed strokes
in the signature are made, as well as the final result, is probably a really
good way of identifying the purchaser. Of course then a lot of the smaller
merchants would have to upgrade their 90's era dial-up credit card processing.

~~~
cryptoz
> An electronic signature that records the speed strokes in the signature are
> made, as well as the final result, is probably a really good way of
> identifying the purchaser.

Not so sure about that. If I use a different mouse then my "signature" using
those metrics will fail, as I'm basically a completely different (inept)
person using other mice. Just an example, but I don't think that e-signatures
can be trusted by using machine learning techniques, at least not any that I
know of today.

~~~
StillBored
Yes, part of it would require some level of standardization of the electronic
pad/pen.

I'm not really suggesting it as "trust" thing, but a better "pin" code that
could be combined with the current shopping history/etc metrics being used to
detect fraud.

------
esturk
From experience, a signature in the checkout line usually takes about 5-10
seconds. Removing it may seem like a small negligible change for users, but
for retailers, it most likely adds up.

Imagine being able to pick up your receipt and leave. What I see being the
stalwart of signatures are probably restaurants. They require that extra step
with the tip.

~~~
lettergram
> From experience, a signature in the checkout line usually takes about 5-10
> seconds. Removing it may seem like a small negligible change for users, but
> for retailers, it most likely adds up.

Your right, can we also remove that stupid bag tax in SF. It easily takes 20 -
30 seconds per transaction.

"Do you want a bag?"

"Ugh, yeah I do"

"Alright that's 50 cents"

"wait, could I get three bags, not two - I don't want my bag to rip"

"Sure, we can do that, 75 cents"

Every. single. time.

~~~
otoburb
I think the policy is working as designed.

The grating, low-grade, annoying, time-wasting inconvenience is supposed to
continue to irritate the purchaser until they decide to bring their own bags.

~~~
lettergram
Its funny - I do bring bags, but often I get more than one or two items. Aka
I'll often get more than planned, as I look for sales.

Regardless, and to the point the whole line is slowed down by this
transaction. Meaning every time I went to the store I had to wait an extra few
minutes for this.

Moving back to Illinois recently, I find it amazing that the lines most move
at least 3× faster. Probably in part due to the more "let's get shit done"
attitude of the Midwest, but also the lack of bag related questions.

I then come home with my paper bags and recycle them. It honestly seems like
more harm to the environment the waste of time + the polyester bags we buy
instead

------
sourcefrenchy
I just use “Ask ID” on all my cards. Surprised every time people ask and
wonder if it would help if card is lost/stolen.

------
bernardlunn
America is so stuck in legacy tech. Nobody checks signatures. Strong Factor
Authentication requires min 2 of 3. India is leapfrogging to biometrics using
Aadhar. Europe is current with chip and pin. America is in quill pen stage

~~~
05
Chip and pin isn't current; CDCVM is. Some european countries are still
lagging on that front.

~~~
sourcesmith
Having to buy your own till is progress?

------
ada1981
Interestingly, many credit card companies don't keep the required paperwork to
legally collect on their loans.

This is a business decision they've made not to be in compliance.

Cases are routinely deemed uncollectible in court when challenged and they are
required to remove the items from your credit report.

~~~
supertrope
It depends on the issuer. Some will sue card (debt?) holders for as little as
$1000, probably because attorney fees can be rolled into the judgement.

~~~
ada1981
What I'm suggesting is that if you are taken to court, and you understand what
defense to use, they literally will lose the suit and you will win the right
to have it removed from your credit report for good.

I spoke to a lawfirm in PA who has literally won 100% of the time against
Capital One in hundreds of debt cases because they can't provide the proper
documentation required by law when asked to collect on their debts.

They primarily rely on people being afraid or ignorant of the laws.

This was mind blowing to me when I first realized it and then researched it
and saw actual cases in real time be ruled for the defense.

------
Simulacra
I've noticed the chip and pin systems getting much faster. Safeway in the DC
area had a sign that they're speeding it up, and it was really insert, pause,
remove. More like swiping.

------
saagarjha
This is great, since there were certain stores that would require my signature
when I was using Apple Pay but not when I used a credit card. Completely
negated the convenience benefit of contactless payment.

~~~
melvinmt
That is actually very funny. _Silicon Valley_ material.

------
eadmund
> ShopKeep and Square, two popular small business payment systems, said they
> do not plan to immediately update their systems to allow retailers to skip
> signatures on all transactions. (Both currently allow merchants to disable
> them on transactions below $25.)

> “We’ll play it a little bit by ear,” said Michael DeSimone, ShopKeep’s chief
> executive. “Right now, I don’t think there’s a high level of awareness about
> this. Let’s get the changes in place and see how they work operationally,
> and then we’ll adapt.”

I can't imagine the hell of a place that must be to work when extending a
feature which works at $25 to any sum — or no sum at all — is that hard. I can
think of some _really_ good reasons for it to be that difficult, but all of
them sound like a terrible working environment.

------
Waterluvian
The only time I ever sign for credit card stuff is when I visit the US. When
it comes to banking it feels like the US is always chasing Canada who is
always chasing Europe.

~~~
TulliusCicero
On the other hand, a large number of merchants in Germany still don't accept
credit cards. Many are even cash-only. Run across them all the time in Munich,
whereas not accepting credit cards was rare in the bay area, even at stands at
farmer's markets, or at food trucks.

------
paulie_a
It's not like the signature actually mattered. I've literally wrote "blah
blah"

That is when the signature pad actually works.

~~~
jwdunne
I've left one unsigned and another had the strip wear off to the point the
card says "VOID VOID VOID".

Never once stopped me using them. I'm glad for it because my signature isn't
exactly consistent.

In fact, I don't think the swipe and signature method is generally allowed in
the UK.

------
jiveturkey
so what happened to chip+signature? now it’s chip only? i guess physical theft
isn’t a thing they care much about anymore.

~~~
ThrustVectoring
The signature being wrong doesn't actually make the card unusable, and there's
statutory liability limits based on reporting the card missing/stolen. There's
virtually zero difference for the issuer between chip+signature and chip-only.

------
billysielu
This is really about who's responsible if someone else uses your card. The
point of chip-and-pin was to shift responsibility for card security to you. If
your card is used in a chip-and-pin scenario it must be your fault for not
keeping the pin secure. Nearly every chip-and-pin device has a CCTV camera
pointed at it, so it's impossible for you to avoid someone seeing your pin.

------
latchkey
I've been using a big smiley face or stickfigure for years now.

Always gets a smile out of the people accepting it.

------
jsemrau
ARE extinct. I am visiting Australia right now and I have not signed a CC
transaction in 10 days

~~~
toomanybeersies
I live in Australia and I haven't even signed my signed my credit card.
Technically I'm supposed to, but I have never had to sign for a transaction in
the past decade that I've been using cards.

------
iosDrone
The article doesn't mention how great this could be for reducing transmission
of the common cold! I hate signatures, especially ones at a drugstore where
every single person has to use the same digital pen.

Since Square is still requiring signatures though, we can add this to the
endless list of things that Jack Dorsey is fucking up.

~~~
subway
So now everyone has to use the same pin pad? Then god forbid they each touch
the same door handle on the way out.

------
walrus01
I have been signing "burrito" for the past year with no adverse consequences.

~~~
amyjess
Half the time, I write an actual X. Especially when it's those shitty
touchscreens that don't pick up much of anything. I've never had a problem.

During election years, I always tell myself I'm going to sign as the
presidential candidates, but I never get around to it.

------
SuperGoodJared
What if I like doodling on all those iPad POS systems?

------
aetherspawn
Any picture of mentioned dog wagging tail signature?

------
sourcefrenchy
I just use “ASK ID” as a signature on all my cards.

------
quickthrower2
Wait, what it's 2006?

------
homero
Can we stop signing checks sometime?

------
machinesmachine
20 years too late

------
jdlyga
Forget about cards, there's a ton of restaurants and stores in NYC that only
accept cash due to the transaction fees.

~~~
coldtea
And they could be forced to change in a heartbeat if a law passes...

------
yakshaving_jgt
Good riddance. Signatures are stupid anyway.

Regards,

A man who currently has a broken wrist.

------
rswail
So this comes up every time the US starts to approach the way credit and debit
cards are processed in the rest of the world.

EMV (Euro/Master/Visa) defines the standard for a chip card. [1]

The cards can be configured as chip+signature, chip+pin or both. The priority
ordering can be pin only, sig only, pin then sig or sig then pin (and a bunch
of other esoteric rules).

Paywave (VISA) and Paypass (Mastercard) are contactless standards for EMV
transactions.

The rules for chip+pin transfer the liability to the merchant (and the
merchant bank) for fraudulent use. The liability moves from the card issuing
bank. It's a "stick" to make the merchants upgrade. That's why merchants are
going to at least chip+signature (ie EMV chip reduces fraud). Moving to
chip+PIN reduces fraud even further.

The card issuing banks tend to introduce rules about how safe your PIN is and
apply rules to your PIN to stop things like repetitive numbers (eg all 1s),
sequences, birthdate matches etc.

Chip + PIN was introduced in the EU and other more advanced than the US
banking environments (ie, everywhere) a number of years ago. The "liability
shift" for Mastercard happened ~2006, Visa was ~2010, later in some places (eg
AU was 2015).

It is only just happening in the US (according to Wikipedia it will be
completed by 2020-10-01).

Paywave/Paypass implement new rules on when a PIN is required. In AU it is
$100. If the amount is below that, then the liability is accepted by the
merchant bank (ie the merchant will get paid). If it is >$100, then a PIN is
required for the merchant bank to accept the transaction.

In Australia, if you report your card lost/stolen, then you are not
responsible for Paywave/pass transactions. If you don't ("an unreasonably long
time"), then you are, unless the card issuer (your bank) can chargeback the
merchant (ie <120 days).

This applies to the Credit Card networks (Amex/MC/VISA/Discover/JCB/Union
etc). MC and Visa also have "debit" cards that use the same network and are
treated basically the same for the merchant.

There are other payment networks (eg in AU there is EFTPOS) which is an AU
bank owned network that basically does direct debit from cardholder to
merchant online. So if you actually insert your card in the reader, you'll get
the choice of "CR" (ie the MC/VISA network, SAV (EFTPOS) or CHQ (EFTPOS)).

So an "ANZ Bank Mastercard" can have 3 different accounts attached, the
Mastercard CC account, and two different savings accounts. No one really has a
"cheque" account anymore. The banks also issue Mastercard/VISA debit cards
(that also offer CC/SAV/CHQ, but CC actually means SAV) and their own debit
cards (EFTPOS only).

EFTPOS has much lower fees for both merchants and the banks. That's why Apple
Pay hasn't been accepted yet by 3 of the 4 major AU banks, because they don't
want to lose their sweet EFTPOS network or pay more to MC and VISA. They also
don't want to pay Apple (or Google) more fees in the interchange.

For a while, supermarkets were making people with MC/VISA debit cards insert
their cards and only allow them to use the SAV/CHQ options so that they didn't
have to pay CC transaction fees for EFTPOS debit transactions.

Anyway, the summary of all this is that moving the US away from signatures is
painful because of the disjointed and irrational US banking and payment
systems as well as the baked in insistence by users on signatures and paper
checks (not cheques, 'cos nowhere that spells it correctly still uses them
much :) ).

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV)

------
beedogs
Heh. In 35 years Americans might finally stop writing checks, too.

~~~
u801e
I would, but there are certain institutions that don't accept any other form
of payment other than check or money order. Even if they do accept a credit
card payment, they add a 3% or greater convenience fee to the amount.

~~~
lopmotr
Surely you can do internet banking transfer to the recipient's bank? In New
Zealand, we didn't used to have many credit cards so that's how you'd pay your
bills, buy a house, pay small businesses, or just about anything that can wait
a day.

~~~
astura
>Surely you can do internet banking transfer to the recipient's bank?

No, there isn't really a "standard" to do this.

As far as bills go, each company has their own billpay system. Small
businesses pretty much all take credit or debit cards now. If they don't you
pay by check. I pay my property taxes with a check because if you do an
electronic payment with their system they want you to pay like a $3 fee.
Buying a house requires you to get a cashier's check.

You can do "billpay" online with your bank, but if their systems aren't
"hooked up" to the other party's systems the bank will mail a physical check
to the other party. None of it is instant or even fast.

------
post_break
Can we also standardize the noise the machine makes when the transaction is a
success? You know that sound "ENGHH ENGHH ENGHH" that is somehow a positive
sound? It's like an alarm clock sound. Why is it not a positive "Ding!" And
some will say well it's to remember your card. Well if that's the case, how
about force the POS system not to print the receipt until the card is pulled?
Or better yet, why does the card have to stay in the machine so long?

~~~
azinman2
Visit Japan and you’ll hear ATMs play a little tune as they hand you money.
The sound design everywhere you go is amazingly and thoughtful. America can be
way too brutalist.

~~~
Hydraulix989
The Zojirushi rice cookers also play you a song after they are done making you
rice.

~~~
hellweaver666
My Samsung washing machine plays a little ditty when a wash cycle completes.
It's actually kind of annoying! :D

~~~
Hydraulix989
Samsung is Korean.

------
nemoniac
Why was "...in the U.S.?" removed from the title?

------
aviaro
It's high time. Nothing irritates me more than a cashier asking for my
signature.

~~~
mulmen
Really? _Nothing_?

~~~
quickthrower2
Nothing irritates me more than people taking idioms literally, with the
exception of discussions where strictness/correctness is required (e.g.
engineers building a bridge, court proceedings, etc.)

------
howlingfantods
I haven't touched a physical credit card in 2 years. Mobile payments is the
future

