
Will Ubuntu Edge commit to using only free software? - ge0rg
http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/will-ubuntu-edge-commit-to-using-only-free-software
======
fingerprinter
I'll never understand the stance that the FSF takes in throwing the baby out
with the bathwater.

Sure, Ubuntu might ship with some binary blobs. You know why? Because Ubuntu
is trying to go mainstream, do something other free desktops/phones have not
been able to do. There is a HUGE benefit to open source and Linux if Ubuntu
succeeds.

But the FSF doesn't see it that way. It seems the FSF would rather see Ubuntu
fail rather than succeed on non-FSF terms. Mind boggling.

If Ubuntu succeeds and is 99% open and 1% closed, is that not better than
Apples/MS 1% open and 99% closed?

If/when Ubuntu succeeds, the next generation can work at that last 1%.

A reasonable, pragmatic and realistic approach is better than DOA.

~~~
vb33
I am failing to see the advantage to open source if Ubuntu succeeds. It will
just be another Android, but with an uglier UI. Canonical contribute virtually
no useful code back to the wider community. Their own projects are difficult
to consume (if they're not already poorly duplicating functionality).

Unlocking all functionality of a device is extremely difficult while binary
blobs are shipped, something I would have thought appealed to _hackers_.

~~~
fingerprinter
Can't tell if trolling or .... (5 minute old account).

Code is great. Know what else is great? Relevance.

Ubuntu brought that to Linux desktops via audience. Ubuntu made some projects
not toil in obscurity. Ubuntu has given life to many an open source project.

If Ubuntu succeeds in either the desktop or phone, all the underlying
technology that Ubuntu is built on will get a huge boost. It's that simple.

~~~
vb33
There are now millions of users of "Linux" because of Android. Where is the
huge boost to the underlying technology?

Ubuntu brought users, but no benefit. Unless posting bugs to the Fedora bug-
tracker their own developers are too incompetent to fix counts.

You are delusional. Ubuntu is no more true to open-source ideology than OS X.
I would argue that Apple contribute significantly more open and useful code
back.

~~~
fingerprinter
Again, so the only measure you would count is lines of code? That is it, pure
and simple?

Relevance doesn't count? A reason for being doesn't matter? A project existing
in a vacuum is just as good as a project with millions of users?

TBH, you sound more like an Ubuntu hater than someone who wants to reason
rationally.

~~~
vb33
I'm a programmer, yes, I use LOC to quantify their worth. Especially when they
are touted as a hero of Open Source, when so far their actions are of a
typical corporate leech.

~~~
fingerprinter
Do you use the same metric for everyone else?

By your reasoning would designers, lawyers, graphics folk, accountants,
managers and marketers not be contributing to a software company?

------
mdwrigh2
> Will Ubuntu Edge commit to using only free software? If the project succeeds
> and has $32 million available to spend, this is surely possible, but there
> is no indication in any of the promotional materials that this is part of
> the plan.

I think John Sullivan is grossly underestimating how much it costs to develop
a phone, let alone one that is totally open. Convincing companies to
completely open source their drivers requires tons of effort, and there has to
be a benefit to the vendor beyond just what you believe to be "right". In some
cases that benefit is money, or purchases ("we'll only use your product
if..."), but I don't think this fundraiser has near enough leverage via either
of those means to both build a high quality device and manage to make it
totally free.

~~~
mrmekon
Agreed.

Hardware costs a ludicrous amount of money to design. It costs a ludicrous
mount of money for each prototype run, of which there will be several. It
costs a ludicrous amount of money to have PCBs fabbed. It costs a ludicrous
amount of money to design a nice case that everything fits into and that
doesn't destroy the radio signal. It costs a ludicrous amount of money to hire
RF engineers for anything. It costs an above-average amount of money (for HN)
to develop software and firmware for hardware. It costs a ludicrous amount of
money to package for consumers, to store, and to ship. It cost a ludicrous
amount of money to convince stores to carry your product. It costs a ludicrous
amount of money to support the product and the customer after it has shipped
to market.

I would be shocked if $32 million covered the development and first run of
product (assuming first run >100,000 units).

------
ihsw
With regards to the term _free software_ , the definition is opaque to most
people, however it's likely construed as such:

* The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).

* The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

* The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).

* The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

Source: [http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-
sw.html](http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html)

Furthermore, Mark Shuttleworth is doing an AMA on reddit right now and someone
asked about binary blob drivers (rather than full-source drivers), and this
was his response:

> There may be blobs in the first generation device. The way to a blob-free
> future is to show demand from folks who care about that, not to be
> ideological about it.

Source:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1j166z/hi_im_mark_shut...](http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1j166z/hi_im_mark_shuttleworth_founder_of_ubuntu/cba1v6a)

Suffice to say that the Edge's OS will not be composed of only free software.

~~~
unknownian
On Hacker News, most people know what Free Software is, but thank you for the
AMA tidbit.

~~~
publicfig
That doesn't mean it's not worth mentioning. Just because you think most
people will know something doesn't mean that's true, and I feel as though it's
incredibly relevant to bring it up along side this discussion.

------
wmf
Will Ubuntu Edge commit to shipping a non-working brick? There's no way free
drivers could be developed within their schedule and budget.

~~~
mrmekon
Many IC manufacturers treat their "API" (hardware registers) as proprietary
IP, require an NDA from the driver developers before releasing the development
guide, and require an agreement not to publish the driver.

I'm mostly referring to the smaller support chips here. Things like I2C->I2S
bridges and ADCs and other crummy little parts that every board needs, and
that need small drivers. The big ones, though, would be WiFi, Bluetooth, and
cell radio chips. They can be _very_ strict.

Even if Ubuntu had the time and money, they might not have the rights.

~~~
wmf
You can solve anything with money, but Canonical doesn't have enough.

------
grey-area
No.

Next? Oh, all the other questions are equally rhetorical? I think we can
safely answer no to them as well, since Canonical is emphatically not the FSF
and doesn't share many of its goals. It aims to be commercially viable and yet
as open as possible, which precludes being fundamentalist.

I'm not really interested in Android or replicant (the real reason for this
press release it seems), and am really keen to see what canonical come up with
in this space. It's high time we saw some innovation in hardware and phone
software again, as we've settled into a comfortable duopoly.

------
anoncow
The donation page for Replicant is here

[https://crm.fsf.org/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=1...](https://crm.fsf.org/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=19)

Replicant webpage

[http://replicant.us/](http://replicant.us/)

Download page

[http://replicant.us/download/](http://replicant.us/download/)

~~~
pekk
Replicant isn't doing the same thing as Ubuntu Edge at all. Is this just a
place to promote any project now?

~~~
anoncow
The parent article mentions replicant. Replicant and edge, both are good
ventures.

------
harel
What's with this obsession the FSF has with 'free' software? Canonical is
ultimately a business and without making money that business will eventually
have to close. Will the FSF hire those developers when that happens? The
benefit of having such a business behind a free OS is too great to fuss about
what component of that OS or device is free. That approach is baffling. Who
cares if a device driver on my phone is open for me to tinker with? I
understand that they take the extreme side very seriously but it feels like
they are taking the extreme side for the sake of being extreme. A little
pragmatism never hurt anyone.

------
bryanlarsen
Ubuntu has said that the entire $32 million would be spent on the hardware,
not the software.

------
Shorel
Well we can have a Hurd Phone instead, if you go and finish it.

