
Sourdough Hands: How Bakers and Bread Are a Microbial Match - lnguyen
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/11/12/665655220/sourdough-hands-how-bakers-and-bread-are-a-microbial-match
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somberi
In the southern part of India, it is common to have Idlis (fermented rice
steamed dumplings) for breakfast and most households make Idli batter the
previous night, and let it ferment and raise. The more the batter raises, the
softer the Idlis are (and sour), and the mother often summons the kid to stir
it with their bare hands. It is always the kid whose microbes help the batter
ferment the most. This dubious honor fell on my hands, no pun intended. Most
nights, before we slept, my mother used to shout out to come and stir the
batter.

~~~
barrow-rider
Those sound interesting. Got any recipes?

~~~
denzil_correa
This is a pretty good one -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGnYu88A2Ws](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGnYu88A2Ws)

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stevekemp
20+ years ago I tried to bake bread a time or two, and it failed. I "recently"
tried again, whilst taking care of a small child - on the basis that even if
it went horribly wrong he could sit in his chair and play with dough for a
while.

This time around almost all my breads have risen, and turned out to be
wonderfully edible. My preferred recipe is cobbled together based upon
numerous other ones I've seen, and uses yeast, flour, salt and water:

[https://blog.steve.fi/this_is_mostly_how_i_make_bread.html](https://blog.steve.fi/this_is_mostly_how_i_make_bread.html)

But I've also had a lot of fun with sourdough, the flavours are much better
and despite the longer time involved I think it is definitely worthwhile.

I've baked a loaf of bread each evening this week, and tonight I'm taking the
night off. But no doubt I'll be baking again on Saturday & Sunday - as I've
just found another interesting variety of (Finnish) flour to try using!

~~~
makmanalp
This is kind of interesting because your recipe is 95% hydration (water /
flour - this is how bakers do ratios), which is crazy high! I've never heard
of this before, but I see you don't really shape it so much as scoop it into
the dutch oven, which makes sense. Something like 55% is normal for commercial
bread, 70% hydration would be much closer to a nice sourdough from the bakery,
75-80%ish for something like ciabatta (using bread flour w/ approx 11%
protein) or when you are using whole flour.

~~~
stevekemp
Yup I didn't want to complicate that post by talking about bakers-percentages,
but you're right it is higher than average. I've juggled different amounts in
this recipe before finding the sweet-spot I prefer, but anywhere from 80% to
95% seems to work.

100% is a bit mixed, which is a little disappointing because it makes weighing
a lot easier if you're using a balance-scale as I do most of the time.

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IvyMike
The cover of the new "Noma Guide to Fermentation" is an illustration of this
phenomenon. [https://www.workman.com/products/the-noma-guide-to-
fermentat...](https://www.workman.com/products/the-noma-guide-to-fermentation)

P.S. It's an awesome cookbook; highly recommended.

~~~
circlefavshape
It's the craziest cookbook I've ever seen! There's a recipe for fermented (for
75 days) grasshoppers. As a serving suggestion it suggests mixing it with
butter, cooking pancakes in the butter, and serving with 'a good caviar'.

We already brew cider and make kefir and various lacto-ferments in our house,
but building a fermentation chamber and fermenting proteins for months in
order to make something that keeps in the fridge for a week? I love the idea,
but the reward/effort ratio is rather poor

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rauhl
I’m reminded of Rogue’s Beard Beer[0], which was made with yeast cultured from
a brewer’s beard.

0:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_Beard_Beer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_Beard_Beer)

~~~
roel_v
Oh but it gets worse (well, depends on how you look at it) -
[https://pulptastic.com/craft-beers-are-
so-2015/](https://pulptastic.com/craft-beers-are-so-2015/) .

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blakesterz
Gastropod has a great episode on Sourdough that's worth a listen if you like
this article:

[https://gastropod.com/secrets-of-sourdough/](https://gastropod.com/secrets-
of-sourdough/)

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albertgoeswoof
I started baking sourdough bread lately, it takes about 15-20 minutes of work
over 3 days to produce a loaf, from my starter, flour, water and salt.

It’s really rewarding to create something from scratch with simple
ingredients.

~~~
beat
Back in 2001, during the dotcom crash, I was unemployed a few months, and
_really_ got into sourdough at that time. It was pretty awesome. But loaves
keep their own time, so I couldn't maintain it when I had a job again.

fwiw, I got my culture from grapes mashed in flour, per Nancy Silverton's
_Breads from the La Brea Bakery_ recommendations.

~~~
MegaDeKay
Myhrvold & Company poured cold water on the idea that grapes and raisins help
a starter get going in Modernist Bread. I believe they went into detail on a
"Bread Crumbs" podcast you can find on Heritage Radio. Probably this episode:

[http://heritageradionetwork.org/podcast/mother-
may-i/](http://heritageradionetwork.org/podcast/mother-may-i/)

~~~
beat
These days, I'd buy a starter online. There's a market for them now, that
wasn't really there when I got into it.

~~~
X-Istence
Why?

Mix flour and water, let it sit for 5 days, adding a little bit of flour and
water daily to feed it.

You don't need to purchase a starter.

~~~
athenot
I like the idea of incorporating locally available microbes but forgive my
ignorance: is it safe?

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HeyLaughingBoy
I did it for years and my family's still here :-)

~~~
dredmorbius
Survivor bias!

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sureaboutthis
I bake all our bread, and it's sourdough, every two or three days. I wonder
what effect this has on my overall health in a positive or negative way.

EDIT: To be clear, this article is about microbes on the hands of sourdough
bread bakers. I'm curious about what effect these microbes on my hands have on
my body, if anything. Not the ingestion of my bread.

~~~
crispyambulance
I also keep a starter and bake sourdough regularly.

The only thing IMHO that can be an issue is just eating too much carbs
(because it's so damn good) or sensitivity to gluten. However, it is known
that sourdough/pain-au-levain is more digestible than regular bread for folks
with gluten intolerance. Sourdough is decidedly more acidic (that's why it's
called "sour") than dough which has been risen with commercial yeast. This
acid partially breaks down the gluten in the dough during fermentation.

People have been eating naturally fermented bread since the dawn of
civilization. The bacteria and yeast in properly fermenting dough do an
excellent job of keeping any nasty stuff out.

~~~
amluto
> However, it is known that sourdough/pain-au-levain is more digestible than
> regular bread for folks with gluten intolerance.

I’ve heard this many times, but I don’t know if it rises to the level of “it’s
known”. It’s not even clearly known that “gluten intolerance” exists outside
the context of celiac disease, and sourdough definitely does not help with
celiac.

There is a theory that “gluten intolerance” is actually intolerance of certain
sugars, sometimes called FODMAPs, that are found in wheat, rye, barley, and
quite a few non-cereal foods. I’ve never seen a paper about this, but I could
easily believe that many sourdoughs ferment those sugars, making the bread
more tolerable.

Finally, a little anecdote about gluten intolerance. I know someone who
claimed to be gluten intolerant. She felt much better when she avoided gluten.
At one point, I baked a fresh challah, and she decided to make an exception
and try the challah. After eating maybe a pound of challah all by itself, she
felt terrible. And lo and behold, we had a diagnosis! Eating large amounts of
bread made her feel sick! Now she eats bread in moderation and she feels okay
:)

~~~
sureaboutthis
I own restaurants. I have to force myself to not roll my eyes at the numbers
of people who come in with growing fear of gluten claiming to be allergic to
it. One parent even asked us to prepare one child's salad with separate
utensils to avoid even the slightest contact with bread. Touching bread does
not cause a reaction to gluten.

~~~
tdullien
So I think we should distinguish between "gluten intolerance" (which is often
self-diagnosed) and "celiac disease" (actual medical condition with allergic
reaction to gluten). For people with the latter, even trace amounts of gluten
are harmful:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1923558](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1923558)

Even _inhaled_ gluten is enough to cause immune system reaction:
[https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc063112](https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc063112)

The generally accepted safe threshold of gluten intake for people with celiac
disease is somewhere on the order between 6 and 30mg (depending on the study).
Even that may be high, there are case studies of individuals where as little
as 1mg of gluten prevented recovery of their gut:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15497770](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15497770)

So the parent that asked for separate utensils is not insane; sharing a bread
knife between gluten-free and gluten-containing bread can be harmful already.

(A close family member and another close friend of mine have celiac disease,
and it is seriously not a joke)

~~~
fiter
A slice of bread weighs about an ounce or 28 grams. There is less than 3 grams
of protein in a slice of bread. About 80% of the protein is gluten which gives
2.5 grams of gluten per slice. So at the lowest exposure level, 1 milligram,
this would mean making sure not to eat 1/2500th of the slice of bread. The
slice of bread is about 4 inches by 4 inches by 0.5 inches giving a volume of
8 cubic inches. 1/2500th of that slice is 0.0032 cubic inches or a cubic piece
>1/8 inch on each side.

Based on the above calculation, I think it's probably ok to use the same
utensil as long as there are no obvious crumbs.

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gwbas1c
I have a feeling we'll found out that it's things like bacteria found in
boogers, sweat, ect, that make the best bread.

~~~
dpc59
Lactobacillus is omnipresent in our bodies, from our stomach to our boogers,
and is the main lactic acid bacteria used in sourdough bread and quickly
brewed sour beers.

Most bacteria in boogers and sweat is pretty harmless stuff, and a lot of it
can be used to metabolize some tasty compounds. Even some clostridiums (same
category of bacteria as the disease c. difficile and an omnipresent type of
bacteria in our stomachs) are used to produce esters in rum.

~~~
elwell
Dang I'm drinking a sour as I type this...

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trhway
Dovetails with the history of industrial white bread marketing push first half
of 20th century - sterile mechanized factory vs. dirty small bakeries where
those darker skin immigrants, like Italians, make your bread with bare hands.

This industrial quick rise, yeast plus extra sugar instead of yeast slowly
feeding of carbohydrates from the grain, white bread one can connect to the
host of modern days autoimmunes and digestive issues.

~~~
PostPost
To be fair, I think digestive issues with commercial bread vs sourdough has
nothing to do with the bacteria - baking sourdough kills bacteria - but the
slow fermintation that lowers phytates in sourdough and makes it easier to
digest.

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hotgoldminer
Terry Gross interviewed him on Monday's Fresh Air:
[https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2018/11/12/6669336...](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2018/11/12/666933600/counting-the-bugs-and-bacteria-youre-never-home-
alone-and-thats-ok)

I enjoyed it.

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zwieback
Seems intuitive but I wish there was a little more detail on their protocol,
e.g. did they check who had washed their hands when, how long do the bacteris
stay, etc.

