

Ask HN: Is it possible for a third world country to have a Silicon Valley? - marv_in

Sorry if I'm linking to my downvoted AskReddit submission. I just thought you guys might want to get a sense of why I'm asking this question.<p>I actually don't know how to program but I really wanted to get a more neutral but detailed information on how much work it takes before reaching the promised land for local third world developers/start-ups.<p>As one commentor used as an example:<p>"So many times have I heard people here look down on pinoy artists and game developers and look up to Korean artists and game developers, but the irony here is that A LOT OF PINOY ARTISTS AND DEVELOPERS ARE WORKING FOR KOREAN GAME COMPANIES."<p>I hope you don't mind me morphing this issue into a tech-related subject. Aside from Reddit, HN and Metafilter are the only two other major social media sites I know of that are well known for their quality comments. I failed to generate Reddit's interests and I don't have a MetaFilter account and this is the last place I have of asking aside from local sites, many of whom I'm not familiar of and many more who might not have as grand a knowledge as to the pros and cons and history of the web 2.0 boom as a global audience.<p>http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/e9jmo/could_the_philippines_seriously_have_become_the/
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hasenj
1\. Don't try cloning the silicon valley, if you're in that mentality you've
already failed because that's not a leader mentality, it's a follower
mentality.

2\. Start the change locally. Do a startup, try to hire people. Try to
organize a small group of developers/hackers, bring books about programming
(e.g. SICP), make them available and easily reachable, maybe translate them to
your local language.

If the Japanese where trying to do mimic Disney exactly, there wouldn't have
been Anime, and they wouldn't have caught up with Disney either.

Actually now that I think about it, studying the history of Japanese Anime
might be very useful.

~~~
marv_in
Thanks. I haven't studied much about the history of Japanese Anime but I did
some on Japanese manga and I was under the impression, Anime was merely a
piggyback on Tezuka's dream of having a movie version of his mangas which
coupled by the success of his pioneering designs and cheap printing allowed
for the type of growth that would help Anime flourish.

Unfortunately for us here, this isn't quite the case from my little
observation of our culture. Even start-ups work on a corporate mindset. Just a
few days ago, I spotted someone selling a DVD of Ubuntu for higher than the
average price of pirated DVDs. This doesn't even take into account the
difficulty of establishing meet-ups here.

I apologize if these just sound like excuses. I'm just trying to put the
problem into context from my perspective in case this allows for a better
explanation of what type of non-government development that can be done to
turn this concept into a reality.

~~~
hasenj
Hey, I know what you mean, I'm also from a third world country. Though I've
been living in Canada for years now so I might have forgotten what things are
like.

Something that might help: Myers-Briggs personality indicator. SJ types tend
to work on a corporate mind-set. Try to find NT or NF types; they might start
with a corporate mindset (assuming that's the prevailing mindset around them)
but they can easily change and adapt more lean strategies.

Actually, let me know how things go for you. I kinda wish I could do the same
in my country.

Regarding Anime: I've heard that the father of Anime was greatly inspired by
Disney. It would've been real easy to slip into a "let's try to clone Disney"
mindset when you're in that position. It sure helped that the Japanese had
manga before, so they had something of their own to build on, instead of just
following another culture's model.

That's why I think it's best to just start with a small group of programmers,
to build a solid base that could later grow into something bigger.

~~~
marv_in
Thanks. Good luck on your side, I'm just hoping on my side too. It all seems
so far away but someone has to try and find answers to the question
eventually.

From what little I know, Tezuka did want to clone Disney in a sense. Prior to
this there were comics before that resembled gag manga and Tezuka, finding
difficulty in amassing resources to clone a Disney movie, tried to convert
Disney unto paper with the current popular drawing style of the time.

Where he became a pioneer was in the area where he saw more of Disney than the
art style. This combined with other old movies he knew of made him want to
"clone cinema unto paper". Thus began both the success of manga and anime.
Manga in the sense of Tezuka's pioneering cinema-like over comic-style like of
pacing (at the time) and Anime due to the combined work ethic plus consistent
high quality works he made which made it impossible for producers to resist
offering an "Anime" version of his works. (Unfortunately or fortunately, this
was also what leads to the unfair and unequal salary of many manga artists
today. In those early days, the manga creator literally gave away their works
to allow for an animated version setting aside certain industry celebrities
and the model continues up till today except nowadays it works closer to a
start-up where the professional manga artist is supplied food and rooms and
materials to polish their work and then having an anime of your work is more
of an honor than a hand-out)

Anyways, if you don't mind, how do you envision a solid base to be? Even today
it seems Silicon Valley isn't quite as solid as it is and there are talks of
talent shortage and high costs of living - I'm curious what a solid base
really is. Over here, from my understanding, programmers don't so much work
together as they end up interning for whichever company is willing to accept
them as on the job trainees. In the rare chance that there is a small group of
programmers working together, they are almost immediately formed through
university projects otherwise they become unknown freelancers working with
their former classmates or past acquaintances.

I think the same holds true for Silicon Valley only guys like Zuckerberg comes
from already elite schools and most people are dreamers and the ones that
aren't but are overly skilled unless I'm mistaken get acquired by Google or
Facebook and lured by certain luxuries. On our end, and again I could be
mistaken, I don't think we even have a YCombinator type of start-up training
and almost everyone is on the follower mindset with regards to web services
because not only is the money hard to support your self with but the
Philippines isn't as internet surfing as other countries. (If you were to take
a web surfing pie, I would assume majority of the users are using Facebook or
playing MMORPG games. I could be highly mistaken since I don't have access to
professional analytics programs but lurking in net cafes these are what I
spot)

There is probably a higher hierarchy of elite level programmers and designers
though but not only am I hard pressed to imagine them not already working or
moving elsewhere in another country but I myself don't have investor level
cash to satisfy them.

~~~
hasenj
I imagine a solid base starting with the right kind of "knowledge". From what
I observed, and this is very subjective, but people who clump around MS
technologies tend to produce lousy communities where not much innovation
happens.

I would start with attempting to produce (or translate) good material that has
the potential to produce programmers who understand their craft really well
and have a really good understanding about systems (to the extent that they
can manage a web server, for example, and ssh into it, and edit files with
vim, and all that stuff).

Maybe also having a few projects that people can clump around, something
that's open source, interesting enough for people to want to use it and
contribute to it.

Again I don't really want to clone Silicon Valley per se, what I want to clone
is online open source communities. And again, it's not really about cloning,
but about using that model as something to aim for, at least initially.

------
perucoder
Here's my 2 cents from having spent a considerable amount of time in Lima,
Peru. I think primarily its a cultural thing. I don't see the same level of
risk taking or entrepreneurship here that I do in the US. People are more
focused on finding stable employment and it seems that being your own boss
doesn't get the same level of respect as working for a good company.

People also don't seem to have the same level of confidence in themselves
here. Kind of hard for me to understand as I am from what is considered the
"greatest" country in the world. Hard to imagine what its like for someone
growing up in the 3rd world. The only analogy I can draw is perhaps someone
coming from a rich family vs someone coming from the ghetto.

~~~
marv_in
I agree and I don't think they can be blamed. It's mostly the economy and the
corruption. Easier to jump ship than to repair a sinking ship too damaged to
be repaired.

I don't think the analogy is quite correct though. At least based only on the
movie impressions of ghettos I've seen, I feel it's sort of an interesting
ironic antonym of cultural personalities.

If many of the people in your ghetto had the same cultural identity as many of
our poor people over here, you'd see a more unified poverty like the one I
imagine exists in the Filipino groups in San Francisco. (I haven't been
outside of my country except for HK and so I'm only guessing.)

In reverse, if we have more of a ghetto culture, it won't necessarily mean we
will lift up ourselves better but certainly we'd be a lot more angrier and
violent at the poverty level that in ways may further hurt our very unstable
lifestyle but will be better breeding grounds for the type of entrepreneurs
that mimic the US lifestyle.

------
mrpsbrk
Man, living in Brazil i can attest to you that there are plenty of hackers
around, but no nasdaq. Maybe it can't be done, and maybe _we wouldn't really
like it_ if we got it.

In Raghuram Rajam's book (Fault Lines) there is something about half of what a
country needs to develop is capital, and part is the human organization that
can turn this capital into development. As in sane institutions and sane
business procedures and people. I would say such a thing is mostly lacking in
Brazil, for example: We do have lots of very very intelligent, educated people
but it is not critical mass --- also, it is not enough to be seen by society
as a driver of lifestyle enhancement (or something like it).

It's easy to see how Americans can buy more Snickers with their salaries and
assume that their society is better, but technology has changed all the rules,
maybe it changed the rule that "more money is better" too.

Which also turns out to be a derisive doubt: In wanting to "make a Philippine
Silicon Valley" are you not really trying to get a better pay for the same job
you currently get?" It is a totally valid goal, mind you, but also a goal that
means you lack a socially contextual mode of analysis.

So i would say: Be very good at what you do, and then do something with it.

Which in turn means: I only think a "Silicon Valley" thing can happen with
real people doing things that they are personally enthusiastic about. Like Woz
was enthusiastic about circuits, or Leonardo was enthusiastic about anatomy...
and in turn those created a context whereby everyone could see how (not only
believe, but see how) this kind of activity could translate in better lives
for themselves.

I guess i did digress some...

~~~
marv_in
No please continue digressing mrpsbrk. I was actually hoping you would expand
more on "maybe we wouldn't really like it".

I do understand the context of your question but it's kind of a weird thing
for me to answer. For you see, I don't have an "official" employed job
currently and if I were to be given a choice of what to have - I would
certainly choose one that is more of a freelance type of job than a static
monthly salary type of task.

In that sense, it really feels weird trying to justify my "non-existant job"
as a desire for better pay and one based on a socially contextual mode of
analysis.

Although here I may be misunderstanding you too. What exactly is a socially
contextual mode of analysis in a country who's majority core socially
contextual mode of analysis as far as job goes is to lift themselves up from
poverty and just have a stable life they can live on? Even if we would set
aside start-ups and include those who would say analyze this with goals not
relating to better pay, what is their incentive to not merely jump ship?
...and if they were to not jump ship, would they have goals to change what
sounds impossible and make it not only possible but possible towards a more
capitalistic friendly future and entrepreneurial minded culture or...be more
of the same?

To your statement (and I do not disagree with your point mind you), I am
always reminded by a section of Hamming's You and Your Research article:

"When your vision of what you want to do is what you can do single-handedly,
then you should pursue it. The day your vision, what you think needs to be
done, is bigger than what you can do single-handedly, then you have to move
toward management."

Not that I'm saying mine is bound to have a happy ending like the person which
Hamming is retelling but in a world where the likes of Woz or Leonardo are
spearheading concepts to new heights, the mediocre may be the ones left to run
most of the asylum and the weak (to which I include myself as being part of
since I haven't succeeded in any area where I was very good) must decide how
and where they would like to pursue themselves to failure. Although just to
clarify, I cannot say my pursuit is necessarily Philippine Silicon Valley per
se. It's just a question that I modified from my AskReddit topic.

~~~
mrpsbrk
>> I was actually hoping you would expand more on "maybe we wouldn't really
like it".

I just meant that the whole culture, you know, the boom-and-sell and become a
millionaire, that this just isn't the best thing in the world. That it makes
all the sense there but that i think that a real grassroots "technology
experimentation mecca" should better develop it's own culture and views about
life and machines and stuff --- one better than this American-culture offshoot
that i am guessing Silicon Valley is.

So technology is cool, hacking is cool, how does this affect our lives? It
seems to me a bit too US-high-school thing that to prove you're cool you have
to become a millionaire. Haven't you wondered why the cool guys like Woz
depart and the pinpricks like Jobs stay? Too much macho display, i say. We are
like Peacoks, instead using our brains as display?

For example, there is this TED talk about this one guy who leaves some
internet-linked comps in the middle of nothing in India and then just comes
back 6 months later to see what the children did with that, this guy is
certainly not making as many millions, but i believe he is nurturing a certain
"relationship with technology", and this, to me, is the one thing that is
valuable about Silicon Valley.

By "socially contextual mode of analysis" i was trying to express something
like "could the old lady living on a shack on the middle of nowhere share your
dream of a Philippino Silicon Valley?" Is it possible to share this vision?
Not that Old Ladies should code, obviously, but could you make a girl
secretary that is likelly to become this old lady in 50 years, could you make
her proud to be working for a high-tech fling? Proud enough to stick with you
after being offered a better pay?

Could you have girl coders? And could they do it because they like it and not
because it is "a right thing to do"? Because, you know, coding is fun.

I am deeply convinced that money is almost never the solution. And that when
there is no "solution" to speak of, the simple injection of money will create
pain. So what i am saying is that there must be a culture before there is a
market, or something like it. That the idea must not be written in dollars,
but in expectations and dreams, in enthusiasm, and, finally, in the good-old
curious spirited hacking.

That said, have you seen "leadership lessons from dancing guy"? Do read the
post too, after you see the video. Really worth your time.

~~~
marv_in
Yeah, I've seen and read leadership lessons from the dancing guy although I
haven't seen the Ted talk you are referring to. (Do you have a link?)

Thanks for clarifying what you mean by socially contextual mode of analysis. I
think it's very possible in this country but it needs some stability which it
will not get from the government soon. That's really where most of the money
issue stems from.

------
notahacker
If you wanted to create a hacker heartland in the Philippines you'd do well to
look at what Silicon Valley _doesn't_ provide (easily obtainable visas,
bootstrapper-friendly costs of living, wage levels which allow for multiple
staff with minimal investment/income). You can't compete with the Valley's
concentration of investors, but you have the advantage of not needing anything
like the same level of investment to build a basic webapp in the first place.

I think it's feasible to create a tech hub there that is a bit more than
offsourcing for multinationals, but you'd be looking at attracting a different
class of entrepreneur.

~~~
marv_in
Thanks. What do you mean by attracting a different class of entrepreneurs?

Could you also clarify how a wage level which allow for multiple staff with
minimal investment/income would work?

~~~
notahacker
Simply put, in a country where US$3000 is a decent annual wage, a company
founder can hire more than one person to work with them on the kind of revenue
they'd need to eat and pay rent in Silicon Valley.

On the other hand, it's still quite possible for a Philippines-based startup
to generate most of its revenues from wealthier countries.

Silicon Valley is a mecca for entrepreneurs looking for funding to form fast-
growing, high-risk companies, and startups that need elite developers to solve
challenging technical problems. On the other hand, if you're looking to start
a relatively low risk, medium-return business you're less likely to get
investment in the Valley and less likely to run out of cash before you start
making money in the Philippines.

~~~
marv_in
Could you set an example or parameter for what constitutes as low risk,
medium-based business on the web?

Aside from local clones, I'm unable to think of anything that fits that bill.
Especially if we're talking medium-return businesses internationally the likes
which would be considered high-return in this country.

There's things like setting up your own online shops but that kind of setting
is not conducive to forming a hub. Then there's the opposite spectrum of a
cheap hub, places that as you describe makes it easy for any type of small
businesses to form but it's certainly not the type of setting that could
develop a culture of start-up support or hacker heartland.

~~~
notahacker
Niche self-service SaaS, Phone/Facebook apps and games, affiliate-driven
product/price comparison/finding/recommending services...basically anything
with a medium term strategy to generate profit rather than aggressive growth
to attract buyers/investors... provided it doesn't need a US-based sales team,
rare engineering skills or high non-people costs like up-front marketing,
licensing or datacentres.

The fact that medium-returns internationally would make you rich in the
Philippines is part of the appeal.

~~~
marv_in
Thanks for further clarifying. Unfortunately I feel these are very isolation-
friendly types of concepts and indeed we have a growing culture of this but
this tends to create "isolated" businesses not the type of culture that would
need a tech hub. (It is also high-risk in this country)

Maybe I am mistaken since I haven't personally participated in a start-up but
the appeal just often leads to our major businesses eating up the smaller
businesses. If there are small businesses that do indeed grow from this
without being bought, it becomes such a brand-centric concept that promotes
copycats rather than idea inventors.

I hope I am able to convey myself clearly. It's not that I disagree with your
idea, it's just that I feel we already have this already. It certainly could
be faster or more aggressive but nothing that would develop an idea culture.
Even in the money culture - I fear it would end up morphing too much like an
online MLM type of educational/culture development - a concept who's offline
variety is already very popular among the poor and even middle classes in this
country.

------
protomyth
Any place that wants to be successful really needs stable rules. If a country
doesn't protect property or people's economic freedom (move jobs, invest,
sell) then I don't think you can get a successful environment for development.
In other words, the little guy needs to be able to beat the big guy or the
friends of the government.

~~~
marv_in
This is true too but this is why I am asking this question. Maybe someone has
found a way around this.

As much as I agree that economic freedom is important, it's not like in
hindsight richer countries were able to shrug off corporations and the little
guy managed to beat the big guy.

If anything it was merely the allowance afforded by being a richer country and
the competitive culture backed by a competitive and often (at the time) unique
society/political education movement that created the sort of economic
illusion of being free which allowed for the little guys to rise/want to rise.

I am merely stereotyping though and even in my attempts at stereotyping I
could be wrong but considering the current state of the world (or mainly
America), it just appears to be the correct assumption.

------
pdelgallego
You maybe would like to read "Why Startup Condense in America" [1] is Paul
Graham paper. I do not agree with all his points of view, but is a very
interesting read.

[1] <http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html>

------
gexla
"So many times have I heard people here look down on pinoy artists and game
developers and look up to Korean artists and game developers, but the irony
here is that A LOT OF PINOY ARTISTS AND DEVELOPERS ARE WORKING FOR KOREAN GAME
COMPANIES."

Sure, when you have cheap labor to export, you end up doing a lot of work for
other people.

Also, perhaps Koreans are simply better at running gaming companies,
regardless of the nationalities of the employees.

As for Silicon Valley, there is only one Silicon Valley.

------
ig1
Arguably Bangalore already has that status, it's certainly produced several
multi-billion dollar tech companies which puts it ahead of most cities (both
in the developing and developed world).

~~~
marv_in
Like the previous user requested, I would also like to know more about
Bangalore.

------
Mz
I would recommend you look into the history of Silicon Valley. As I understand
it (and I don't know much about it), it was a lovely, inexpensive place, a
very prestigious college decided to do some stuff to help develop local
businesses and then some folks who really loved the place went there to start
their business(es) because in part because it was so lovely. Do a bit more
research and see if you can find a "formula". I'm sure that luck/happenstance
plays a role but that doesn't mean you can't get clues for how to encourage
something similar to sprout elsewhere.

~~~
flotsam
Steve Blank has a nice series of posts on the history of Silicon Valley:
[http://steveblank.com/category/secret-history-of-silicon-
val...](http://steveblank.com/category/secret-history-of-silicon-valley/)

~~~
marv_in
Thank you very much for this!

