
Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evading Sanctions - jmsflknr
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/manhattan-us-attorney-announces-arrest-united-states-citizen-assisting-north-korea
======
woah
Here are the main allegations:

1\. In or about April 2019, GRIFFITH traveled to the DPRK to attend and
present at the “Pyongyang Blockchain and Cryptocurrency Conference” (the “DPRK
Cryptocurrency Conference”).

2\. After the DPRK Cryptocurrency Conference, GRIFFITH began formulating plans
to facilitate the exchange of cryptocurrency between the DPRK and South Korea,
despite knowing that assisting with such an exchange would violate sanctions
against the DPRK.

3\. GRIFFITH also encouraged other U.S. citizens to travel to North Korea,
including to attend the same DPRK Cryptocurrency Conference the following
year.

4\. Finally, GRIFFITH announced his intention to renounce his U.S. citizenship
and began researching how to purchase citizenship from other countries.

I wonder if 1-3 basically just amount to speaking in person about technology
that is very well documented on public web sites?

As far as I'm aware, 4 isn't a crime or even immoral in any way.

This seems like it's basically just a real-life scenario of what people were
worried about in the 1990's "crypto wars", but with a very unsympathetic
defendant and an especially evil foreign power.

Although if he was paid to go there then it would seem to violate whatever
commercial sanctions are in place.

~~~
Mathnerd314
Per [https://nkcryptocon.com/FAQ/](https://nkcryptocon.com/FAQ/): "For your
convenience we will provide a paper visa separated from your passport, so
there will be no evidence of your entry to the country. Your participation
will never be disclosed from our side unless you publicize it on your own."

It doesn't appear to be paid, 3400 euro fee to attend.

~~~
no_opinions
> Your participation will never be disclosed from our side unless you
> publicize it on your own.

Blackmail / extortion / compromise trap right there. Don't email em, don't
talk to em.

If you're an American and you go there, they have dirt on you and can threaten
to reveal it if you don't play ball with them.

Shame on you, North Korea!

Also that feel when the only tech smarts you can get is cryptocurrency folks

~~~
thaumasiotes
> Blackmail / extortion / compromise trap right there. Don't email em, don't
> talk to em.

> If you're an American and you go there, they have dirt on you and can
> threaten to reveal it if you don't play ball with them.

Perhaps, but they'd lose the ability to promise other people that _their_
relationship with North Korea was safely secret. I wouldn't worry about this;
I suspect North Korea really does want to maintain its ability to have skilled
foreigners come and help if they're so inclined.

I understand some people maintain two passports, one for Israel and the other
for the rest of the Middle East. This is a similar thing. I wouldn't expect
Iran to insist on disclosing an American's visit to the US government either.

------
Jd
I know Virgil. I was at the lunch in Palo Alto where he suggested "GAS" should
be the name of the internal accounting unit for smart contracts. As with many
of the early Ethereum adopters he was quite gifted, a bit eccentric, and
leaned a bit in an ideological direction.

Offhand I can't see any reason why he would go out of his way to N. Koreans
advice on how to evade sanctions, so I will look forward to some statement on
his part. 20 years is a long time.

I know he was working for the Ethereum foundation recently but doubt that the
foundation would go out of the way to anger the US government (although they
reportedly have a lot of Chinese government involvement).

Here is his twitter:
[https://twitter.com/virgilgr?lang=en](https://twitter.com/virgilgr?lang=en)

~~~
tptacek
There's virtually no chance that he'll serve anything resembling 20 years,
despite the almost theatrical stupidity of the crime he has allegedly
committed. The DOJ ignores the sentencing rules in these press releases.
Google [whale sushi sentence] for details.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Espionage cases are traditionally resolved with harsh penalties and no
reductions for good behavior. The government wants a clear message sent to
anyone else thinking of doing similar things.

The only way you can get off is if your trial would reveal sources and methods
the government doesn't want to disclose.

~~~
tptacek
First off, this isn't an espionage case.

Second, you can simply read the sentencing guidelines, which will include the
statute he's charged under, and see how the sentence is actually computed. We
don't have to try to reason to it from first principles.

~~~
bluesign
It is 63-78 months for first offense, 46-57 if you plead guilty.

So still kinda long 5 years.

~~~
Hello71
that assumes that his talk constituted a financial transaction. it's not clear
that this is the case. if he was paid to speak, then it does seem plausible,
but that doesn't seem to be disclosed in the press release. if he went for
free (and, one would assume, would have needed to pay for the ordinary
admission fee), then it's possible to consider it as non-commercial, so that
would be only 15-21 months.

edit (can't reply yet): I arrived at this number by searching for USC and
U.S.C in the press release, then googling IEEPA, finding
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Emergency_Econom...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Emergency_Economic_Powers_Act),
then finding 50 U.S.C. § 1701, then going to
[https://guidelines.ussc.gov/si](https://guidelines.ussc.gov/si), putting in
50 U.S.C. § 1705, figuring §2M5.1 is relevant, then putting 14 in
[https://guidelines.ussc.gov/grc](https://guidelines.ussc.gov/grc).

~~~
tptacek
I didn't look that carefully, but I don't see the set of guideline rules that
get you down to 15-21; how'd you get there?

------
rahuldottech
> Assistant Attorney General John Demers said: “Despite receiving warnings not
> to go, Griffith allegedly traveled to one of the United States’ foremost
> adversaries, North Korea, where he taught his audience how to use blockchain
> technology to evade sanctions. By this complaint, we begin the process of
> seeking justice for such conduct.”

Wow, that seems like an incredibly dumb thing to do. Isn't all that
information readily available on the internet anyway? I'm sure the NK govt.
has access to the web.

~~~
sfttty
As you've said, a video call would suffice for that. What can NK offer that
other countries can't and why this needed to travel there?

~~~
whymauri
There's an adrenaline rush from going to somewhere where travel is explicitly
prohibited, and it's not that expensive to boot. I've seriously considered
going on my non-American passport but have decided not to for two reasons:

* Even though my birth country is on allied terms with NK, I'm unsure how my dual citizenship with the US would pan out. I do not want to be considered a spy and imprisoned.

* I do not feel comfortable contributing to a totalitarian economy, even if the individual citizens (guides, translators, etc) benefit a lot from payment.

And there are probably many other valid reasons not to go, but those are the
most immediately obvious to me.

~~~
geomark
For some people it's not an adrenaline rush but a strong curiousity about what
the US gov doesn't want you to know. Like all the warnings I received about
travel to East Germany even after the wall came down (I was working for a
defense contractor at the time). Project security warned us that there would
be spies hiding behind every bush.

When we got to Checkpoint Charlie there were just a few tourists milling about
the small section of wall that remained, and an old German couple renting a
hammer and chisel so you could chip off a piece of the wall yourself. When we
spoke to the old couple they suddenly became alert and asked us, rather
loudly, if we were Americans. Immediately, out of the corner of my eye I
noticed a middle-aged woman sitting on a bench look up, and a young guy dart
out of a doorway and start walking our way. We took the hammer and chisel and
started chipping at the wall while keeping an eye on the locals nearby, who
suddenly seemed very interested in us. An older man standing close to the wall
reached into his pocket and pulled out a lighter but did not light the
cigarette hanging from his mouth, an obvious signal to other members of his
surveillance team.

When a German couple posing as tourists came up and asked us where we were
from we recognized that they were obviously trying to recruit us to spy for
the Eastern Bloc. But we were too clever, pretending that we were drunk and
did not speak English, and meandered back to the train station with our chunk
of the wall.

~~~
papreclip
You sure they weren't all just thirsty for some free world dollars?

------
landryraccoon
Meta observation : It's really interesting to view these comments as a meta
commentary on the tribes that Hacker News members affiliate themselves with.

Imagine that instead of being a hacker, Griffith was a financial expert, and
instead of attending a Cryptocurrency conference, after consulting with the
DOJ on whether or not he could travel to North Korea to teach the regime how
to best invest it's money in financial instruments abroad, they told him that
wasn't allowed and he went anyway.

Would he still seem as sympathetic? Would a lot of HN comments rise to his
defense because he was a financial nerd instead of the sort of programming
nerd that Hacker News readers identify themselves with?

~~~
busterarm
As someone who has been hanging around hackers for roughly 30 years, my social
media is filled with sympathy for this guy (most of us know him personally).

I find it mildly unbelievable. I had similar reactions with MalwareTech, but
at least he's somewhat sympathetic.

It should not be alarming when "Do Crimes" turns into prison time.

------
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
> _Finally, GRIFFITH announced his intention to renounce his U.S. citizenship
> and began researching how to purchase citizenship from other countries._

At first I thought maybe there was some monetary incentive to going to NK that
might not be unsealed, but now I doubt it.

It sounds like this guy was simply a crypto “believer”, with probably a bit of
an ego. To these people the inability of governments to enforce control on
crypto is one of the biggest features, and I’m sure he wanted to see that used
in the real world.

~~~
arcticbull
Yes indeed, the cold hard world order came crashing down on this dude.

It's not much research to figure out how to buy a passport from somewhere
else, the BBC has a nice write-up [1].

1\. Malta wants $1.15M for a full EU passport, and Bulgaria is another popular
choice.

2\. Sant Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia and Antigua and Barbuda will give you a
passport for a donation of around $100K to charity or if you buy some real-
estate around the half million mark.

3\. The cheapest possible if you don't mind limited travel options is the
Comoro Islands, $45K all-in.

[1]
[https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27674135](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27674135)

~~~
dmix
> the cold hard world order came crashing down on this dude.

He asked the state department before leaving, he knew what he was doing.

~~~
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
> _At no time did GRIFFITH obtain permission from OFAC to provide goods,
> services, or technology to the DPRK._

I think in this case intent matters. If you ask permission to travel as a
formality, but provide some goods and services while there then that’s very
different things.

~~~
rodgerd
Intent to assist a regime obtain the currency it needs to continue running
murder camps and the like?

~~~
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
Maybe I phrased it wrong, but I think the intent was to help them circumvent
the sanctions, despite that he may have asked the government for permission to
visit NK.

------
arcticbull
Well, I mean, the fact that cryptocurrencies are helping North Korea is pretty
much undisputed. They've been stockpiling it to run their _ballistic missile
program_. [1] According to the United Nations Security Council, they had
almost $700MM back in May. [2]

The system is designed to skirt sanctions after all, it's kinda the raison
d'être.

[1] [https://bitcoinist.com/un-north-korea-accumulating-
cryptocur...](https://bitcoinist.com/un-north-korea-accumulating-
cryptocurrency-for-weapons-programs/)

[2] [https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/N-Korea-at-
crossroads/Nort...](https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/N-Korea-at-
crossroads/North-Korea-stole-cryptocurrency-via-hacking-UN-panel)

~~~
empath75
Money laundering, ransoms and fraud are pretty much the only actual use cases
other than speculation— which is essentially just people extracting profits
from criminals in a way that makes them feel distanced from engaging in a
criminal conspiracy.

~~~
stale2002
No, there is lots of financial censorship being done against people have have
broken zero laws.

For example, at one point, banks blocked donations to WikiLeaks, even though
they were not charged with any crimes.

Financial censorship, done arbitrarily, to people who have not even been
accused of a crime, is the most common form of financial censorship.

~~~
wahern
> Financial censorship, done arbitrarily, to people who have not even been
> accused of a crime, is the most common form of financial censorship.

Source? I find that hard to believe considering the prevalence of fraud. In
fact, dealing with fraud is one of the primary reasons transactional banking
exists in the first place.

Notes and other negotiable instruments were in widespread use even when there
existed universal gold- or silver-denominated currencies that made direct
payments nominally simple and convenient.

~~~
stale2002
Are you not aware about things like how anything related to sexual content
will have their accounts closed?

I was talking about things like this, and other related situations.

~~~
wahern
The claim as I read it was that most financial censorship befalls innocent
accountholders. But while there are countless examples we can find online
about people wrongly censored or accused, actual fraudsters don't go
complaining on Twitter.

Fraud is a _huge_ problem. The usual reason for why we can't have nice things
--a high-trust civil society--is because of bad people. Because no system is
perfect, our transactional and legal systems have to balance administrative
efficiency and fairness. The more you try to be fair, i.e. improve your
accuracy (fewer false positives), the higher your costs (less efficacy at
stopping bad guys and/or more resources need to be expended); the more you aim
for administrative efficiency (lower costs but better at stopping bad guys)
the more fairness will tend to suffer (more false positives).

Now, it's entirely possible that there are more accounts wrongly closed than
closed for actual fraud. Personally I would doubt it, but would still like to
see data. That notwithstanding, it would still be wrong to characterize such a
system as arbitrary simply because of that skewed result; it could just be a
manifestation of a high efficiency but low fairness enforcement mechanism.
Maybe it is arbitrary, but I doubt it.

I had never heard the phrase "financial censorship" before. Perhaps a better
term here would be financial blacklisting. The EFF's page,
[https://www.eff.org/issues/financial-
censorship](https://www.eff.org/issues/financial-censorship), conflates a ton
of individual issues in a way that I don't think is constructive. Everybody
trying to shoehorn their issues into the free speech debate tends to obfuscate
problems and potential solutions; and I suspect it will one day backfire,
harming traditional freedom of speech in the process. Before I even read the
EFF's issue page--and definitely so, afterwards--the very phrase "financial
censorship" brought to mind Citizens United v. FEC. Keep going down that road
and there's no limit--I could just as well characterize murder laws as
violating my free speech.[1]

For the record, I protested in front of the Federal Building in San Francisco
when Dmitri Sklyarov was arrested way back when. I do take these issues
seriously.

[1] In fact, IIRC not long after Citizens United the very same conservative
justices upheld the criminal convictions of people who gave to a charity and
advocacy organization implicated in funding terrorist organizations. The
juxtaposition of the two decisions seemed to me to evidence the inconsistency
and hypocrisy of the conservative's free speech crusade; such inconsistency
and hypocrisy is inevitable once you start to characterize everything that's
incident to speech as speech itself.

~~~
stale2002
> Now, it's entirely possible that there are more accounts wrongly closed than
> closed for actual fraud. Personally I would doubt it,

Ok, then you can rephrase my argument as "one of the most common examples of
financial censorship", or "common enough that it is still bad", instead of
"the most common".

It still does not take away from my main point here, which is that it is still
useful for people who are breaking no laws, to be able to get around arbitrary
financial censorship of their perfectly legal transactions. That was my main
point.

> conflates a ton of individual issues in a way that I don't think is
> constructive

People who are doing the censoring, or support the censorship, usually don't
want their actions to be called censorship, yes.

I think it is a good term, though. The reason is because I am specifically
referring to financial transactions that are perfectly legal, and are being
censored for the political content of transaction.

The examples I gave were donations to WikiLeaks, which were perfectly legal,
but were arbitrarily blocked, due to the political nature of such a donation,
as well as the example of sexual content related financial transactions, which
are also legal, but often arbitrarily blocked.

> it will one day backfire, harming traditional freedom of speech in the
> process.

I am not really sure how it could backfire, to give people more ways of making
perfectly legal financial transactions, that are more difficult to arbitrarily
block, due to the political content of those transactions.

If you think something is bad, and should be blocked, then make a law. Don't
rely on intermediaries to block things that aren't illegal.

~~~
arcticbull
> It still does not take away from my main point here, which is that it is
> still useful for people who are breaking no laws, to be able to get around
> arbitrary financial censorship of their perfectly legal transactions. That
> was my main point.

Dramatically more people, indeed the whole world potentially, stand to lose
from these countries avoiding sanctions than from the handful of people who
can’t currently access their questionable but legal sexual content online.

------
alcio
According to the complaint, the defendant:

\- went back to the US several time after traveling to the DPRK despite being
warned not to by the US state department

\- had several consensual interviews with FBI agents

\- consented to a search of his phone

It's hard to read this and not think that he brought this upon himself. If you
really want to do what he did, get a lawyer, don't travel back to the US,
don't speak to law enforcement.

~~~
Kinnard
Or that he was entrapped.

~~~
defap
Entrapment by what, reverse psychology? He didn’t walk into a sting set up by
FBI agents; he went to a real conference in the real North Korea despite
official warnings not to do so.

~~~
Kinnard
Why is reverse psychology not an effective method of entrapment. I'd expect
it's a standard component actually.

------
fastball
At first I was concerned that the US was overstepping it's bounds a bit with
cryptocurrency. But then I read the charge, and he apparently literally
traveled to North Korea to advise them how to evade sanctions -- pretty stupid
if you ask me.

~~~
drcode
I don't have any real wish to defend this guy since he likely did some really
boneheaded things, but "advise them to evade sanctions" could easily just mean
"explained to them how to install a crypto wallet on a computer."

~~~
PeterisP
Why the "but" ? If you explain to someone how to install a crypto wallet on a
computer knowing that this installation will help that person do tax fraud,
then you're an accomplice to tax fraud; and if you explain to someone how to
install a crypto wallet on a computer knowing that this will help DPRK evade
santions, well, that's a crime on its own. Telling others how to do simple
things (that they could find on the internet on their own) and providing
trivial, simple help may be a crime depending on the intent.

There's no requirement to provide some unique, significant, irreplaceable
insight or service, knowingly providing _any_ help whatsoever is sufficient.
Helping a buddy wash his car is a simple, nice thing to do; but helping a
buddy wash blood off of his car before the police gets to it is a crime.

~~~
drcode
I'm not making any legal claims about his situation, I'm just pointing out
that the language being used may be intentionally misleading.

------
alcio
When you have traveled to the DPRK despite warnings of the Department of
State, visiting the US is not the best decision to take.

~~~
arcticbull
Certainly not after they made US passports not valid for travel to the DPRK in
the wake of the Warmbier... situation.

~~~
gruez
How's this enforced? You'd think that the enforcement would have to be done by
the host country, making this restriction impossible to enforce.

~~~
arcticbull
I'd imagine in three ways: (1) the host country refuses to admit you (2) the
host country stamps your passport and you're totally SOL at the border on your
way back in, or commit some sort of fraud if they ask you where you went and
you don't answer truthfully which brings us to (3) exactly like this haha.

~~~
alcio
in this case, the defendant got a visa detached from its passport.

from what I could gather from the complaint and his social media
([https://twitter.com/virgilgr/status/1161217917427470337](https://twitter.com/virgilgr/status/1161217917427470337)),
he just never tried to hide it.

~~~
elliekelly
I think this is the norm for some of the more “controversial” countries. I
went to Cuba (with permission from the State Department) before Obama eased
sanctions and I was quite disappointed that they didn’t stamp my passport.
Instead I got a little slip of paper that was about the size of a page in my
passport. It was my understanding that the Cuban government had designed the
visa system this way on purpose to allow Americans to more easily skirt the
sanctions.

And once I got past border patrol and saw all of the items coming out with the
luggage (car parts, toilet seats, televisions, a grill, etc.) it was clear
that this system allowed the wealthier families to avoid most of the
inconveniences of the US embargo.

------
roadbeats
He is also the author of WikiScanner, the project revealed FBI and CIA
computers used for editing Wikipedia pages.

~~~
jessaustin
OK, he can forget about parole...

~~~
greenyoda
He wouldn't get parole anyway, since the federal justice system no longer
grants parole.

> For persons convicted under civilian federal law after November 1, 1987,
> federal parole has been abolished [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_parole_in_the_United_S...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_parole_in_the_United_States)

------
flyGuyOnTheSly
This is ridiculous.

Both that this US Citizen ignored direct warnings from the US Federal
Government not to attend and teach at the Pyongyang Blockchain Conference, and
then volunteered to travel back the United States.

And that the US Federal Government is worried about North Korea getting their
hands on the WMD-level technology that are Ethereum Tokens.

I suppose they'll be rounding up the people who built
[https://ethereum.org/developers/#getting-
started](https://ethereum.org/developers/#getting-started) next?

~~~
rodgerd
> And that the US Federal Government is worried about North Korea getting
> their hands on the WMD-level technology that are Ethereum Tokens.

There's significant evidence that North Korea has been using cryptocurrency to
evade sanctions and prop up their murderous regime, so I don't see what seems
ridiculous to you about that.

~~~
CryptoPunk
We're going to stop murderous regimes by creating a totalitarian centralized
global financial surveillance system, and imprisoning anyone who uses
financial channels that don't comply with it?

Opposing murderous regimes is worthwhile. Doing it by criminalizing financial
privacy and creating surveillance systems that are more expansive than
anything the world has ever seen and that everyone is strong-armed into using
them, is not.

Mandates to comply with an Orwellian warrantless surveillance system in
Xinxiang are, according to the Chinese government, justified by the threat of
terrorism. This is how these kinds of totalitarian impositions are always
rationalized. There's always a good reason for them, to advance public safety
and national security, according to their advocates.

------
Canada
The complaint[1] leads with the allegation that the State Department denied
him permission to travel to DPRK and attend this conference. How does that
work? Did he seek permission from State and receive a denial, then go ahead
and do it anyway?

Edit: 15(c) alleges that he did in fact seek prior approval. Well, I guess
it's no mystery why he's in deep trouble now.

[1] [https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-
release/file/1222646...](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-
release/file/1222646/download)

------
johnpowell
Maybe I am the only person that watched the show. But I guess he was on the
first season of King of the Nerds. It was a reality show on TBS.

~~~
johnpowell
[https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-
project/2016-May/...](https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-
project/2016-May/000355.html)

Not sure what to think of this. But it is there.

------
Operyl
> ... announced today the unsealing of a criminal complaint charging VIRGIL
> GRIFFITH, a United States citizen, with violating the International
> Emergency Economic Powers Act (“IEEPA”) by traveling to the Democratic
> People’s Republic of Korea (“DPRK” or “North Korea”) in order deliver a
> presentation and technical advice on using cryptocurrency and blockchain
> technology to evade sanctions.

And he thought he’d get away with this how? Jeez..

------
miguelmota
> Finally, GRIFFITH announced his intention to renounce his U.S. citizenship
> and began researching how to purchase citizenship from other countries.

Maybe Virgil should have renounced his US citizenship _before_ aiding NK. He
should of seen this arrest coming from miles away because of strict sanction
laws. Not sure how much they paid him to go to NK to make this all worth it.

------
Sam777666
"Virgil Griffith, also known as Romanpoet, is an American programmer, known
for being the creator of WikiScanner. He has published papers on artificial
life and integrated information theory." WikiScanner exposed edits that
Diebold and CIA employees were making to Wikipedia pages.

------
bb88
I get that people hate US monetary policy so much they tried to bypass it with
crypto currency and the like. But this strikes me as another reason for the US
government to step in and regulate crypto currencies.

~~~
CodeWriter23
They already do. See IRS letters sent to CryptoCurrency Owners, 2019.

------
hugelgupf
Why on earth did he agree to those FBI interviews where he admitted all this?

~~~
drcode
Maybe he realized he was in deep s __t and thought (wrongly) that cooperating
would help his situation.

------
todipa
I'm not sympathetic. You're talking about a regime that essentially enslaves
people. History will not be on his side.

------
xeromal
```The cult hacker Virgil Griffith combines geekdom with a James Bond-like
suaveness.```

------
alpb
Better title for HN:

Arrest of Cryptocurrency and Tor expert [...]

------
Razengan
OT: My immediate reaction was wondering whether his name was a Berserk
reference.

------
mthoms
This submission title is a train wreck. Paging @dang!

~~~
dang
Fixed now. The submitted title was "US Citizen, a Ethereum Staff, Arrested for
Assisting N Korea in Evading Sanction".

------
tontonius
”An Ethereum staff” ?

~~~
BostonFern
Yes, but HN isn't exactly a bastion of correct grammar. Also, it shouldn't be
capitalized.

------
flatline
This is like a pure distillation of ancap crypto hacker egoism. See where it
might land you, kids?

~~~
keiferski
Not sure how actively aiding a rogue totalitarian state qualifies as remotely
ancap.

~~~
baddox
Because someone dislikes both of those things which makes them the same.

------
rhegart
North Korea has killed or tortured over 1 million in death camps and threatens
nukes at the whim of 1 man who recently used anti aircraft guns to kill his
uncles. In my opinion this moron deserves life in jail

~~~
duskwuff
While the leaders of North Korea have, without question, done a lot of
horrible things, the anti-aircraft-gun story has appeared repeatedly in
conjunction with numerous people, many of whom have reappeared alive
afterwards, or who have been confirmed executed by other, more ordinary,
methods. It's not clear if these anti-aircraft gun executions have ever been
carried out, or if it's simply a recurrent rumor.

[https://www.38north.org/2016/09/aabrahamian090216/](https://www.38north.org/2016/09/aabrahamian090216/)

~~~
rhegart
Different intelligent agencies have confirmed numerous deaths as well as
reputable journalists from multiple witnesses. I’m sure some are exaggerated
and run wild with but there is too much evidence to suggest ALL are fake

~~~
duskwuff
Some of the deaths have been confirmed. As far as I'm aware, though, none of
the ridiculous methods of execution reported in the media (shot by anti-
aircraft guns, torn apart by dogs, etc) have been confirmed. Moreover, the
recurrent nature of these rumors suggests that they're long-running myths
about North Korean execution methods that get attached to whichever official
is rumored to have been executed recently.

------
tempsolution
Well deserved. There isn't much else to add. And on top of that he has the
audacity to set foot on American soil again.

------
qrbLPHiKpiux
No matter how you look at this, this indictment now shows that we are not free
to travel as we wish.

~~~
drtillberg
I don't understand the waves of down votes in this thread. Not very HN-like.

~~~
syshum
Yes it is. Libertarianism is not a welcome here

~~~
dang
People with opposite politics have the opposite picture:

 _HN often aligns with more Libertarian ideologies_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21316611](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21316611)

 _There is a definite right-libertarian bias on HN, whether you want to
acknowledge that or not. Everything not toeing that line is attacked and
downvoted_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21432833](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21432833)

 _Hacker News has become a forum for uber nationalistic right-winged
libertarians_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21231654](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21231654)

 _There 's a lot of very neoliberal or libertarian politics going on in the
comments round here_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21186128](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21186128)

 _hacker news is a bubble of mostly middle class white male libertarians_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20637454](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20637454)

 _If you go against any kind of socially conservative or libertarian
perspective it will get down voted and very likely flagged. It 's always been
this way._
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20643695](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20643695)

 _It 's totally expected. This is a heavy technolibertarian site_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19230037](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19230037)

 _the techno-libertarian norm around here_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18671955](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18671955)

 _Hacker News has a libertarian leaning ideology among both its community and
site-runners_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16019694](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16019694)

 _Because it 's HN, where opinions other than "hooray libertarian technocracy"
are frowned upon_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15307091](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15307091)

 _this site is a haven for alt-right and libertarian people who believe this
stuff_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14205262](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14205262)

There are just as many claims of the opposite; see
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21449589](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21449589)
and
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21245485](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21245485).
In reality, HN is a large pluralistic community, with more than enough
material to support any impression of bias that you're primed for. The
comments you notice and dislike make a stronger impression than the comments
you agree with, building up a feeling that the community is against you. This
can't be a function of HN, because HN is the same for everybody. Rather, it's
in the eye of the beholder: an afterimage of the things they ran into and
disliked here. The phenomenon is so consistent that you can not only predict
what someone's opinions are, but also how intensely they hold them, from their
image of the community's bias.

~~~
drtillberg
I appreciate that you are passionate on the point @dang, but I read those
comments you link as confirming there is a perception among users that folks
are flaming and downvoting on HN to pursue a political or ideological agenda.
They flame and downvote each other, I guess. I love HN, but I'm not impressed
by the quality of this discourse or by labels like 'flamebait', anecdotally
it's getting worse, and I'm not even convinced the activity even is _that_
authentic or organic.

~~~
dang
I don't see a disagreement here? Yes, politically committed users flame and
downvote each other, and the quality of the discourse when they do that is
unimpressive.

------
confeit
Hacker arrested for sharing information.

~~~
gruez
what he's essentially doing is aiding/abetting.

~~~
crankylinuxuser
Be careful with that.

So in-person talks is aiding and abetting?

What about videoconference?

What about emails?

What about a semi-hidden webpage meant primarily for them?

Or how about a general developer FAQ that would get anybody dev-minded up to
speed?

Where do we draw this line of "aiding and abetting"? Material good?
Information? Congratulations? This appears to be strongly a 1st amendment
issue of speech. Not that I like NK, but that point is a distractor. Why is it
a crime to talk about cryptocurrency and monetary censorship of countries?

~~~
otterley
Attorney here! (Not providing legal advice - seek licensed counsel in your
jurisdiction if you need legal advice.)

Any act that would provide material assistance is sufficient. Criminal law is
pretty liberal about what constitutes an "act" in furtherance of a crime. If
it concerns you, stay far far away.

But merely publishing information in a book or on a publicly-accessible
website for all to see is not generally going to get in you trouble (subject
of course to copyright, publishing classified information, etc.).

~~~
syshum
>>But merely publishing information in a book or on a publicly-accessible
website for all to see is not generally going to get in you trouble

They Tried that, but that pesky 1st amendment got in the way. Research the
CyptoWars (which is seems are heating up all over again) and the PGP Source
Code Book.

The US Government has been attempting to censor speech for as long as it has
been in existence. the latest attack on crypto by the US Government for
"national security" reasons is just the latest in the long line of abuses

~~~
edgyquant
What happened wasn't an attack on crypto at all.

------
sneak
Traveling somewhere the government doesn’t like and teaching things to people
there should not be a crime in any reasonable, civilized society.

~~~
throwaway2048
So hypothetically, traveling to North Korea, and teaching them how to build
ICBMs and nuclear weapons should be something anyone is be allowed to do?

I think you will find most people disagree with you here.

~~~
sneak
Be careful with that “them”; most people living in North Korea are even more
threatened by the DPRK government than you are.

I have the belief that most human beings, in all places, are good, peaceful,
and decent. Giving the people in North Korea all the help and resources they
can will doubtlessly accelerate the downfall of their terrible, criminal
leaders. It would be working in the USA except for the similar systems in
place here to control easy access to information.

I do not think that peacefully teaching any subject, to any group of people,
in any place, should be illegal, as no one is victimized by the act of
teaching.

~~~
tptacek
Sure, but the allegation is that Griffith traveled to the DPRK at the behest
of its government, not its people.

------
syshum
>>> GRIFFITH and other attendees discussed

hmmm it will be interesting if he uses the 1st amendment as a defense, he all
he did was discuss idea's and technology then it should be a clear 1st
amendment violation for the US government to censor him, even against if he is
talking to the DPRK

This reminds me of the PGP Source Code book case where the government
attempted to proclaim Phil Zimmerman was exporting technology with PGP Book,
they failed because of the 1st amendment.

------
crankylinuxuser
So, it's illegal for me to explicitly talk about things that could be illegal?

That seems to fly in the face of the 1st amendment. He was teaching about a
skill that could be used to break law, but also be used in legal transactions.

Seems more like thoughtcrime, than actual crime. And if talking about
implementation of technology is a crime, it shouldn't be.

~~~
chance_state
He traveled to North Korea to teach them how to evade international sanctions.
That's "thought crime"?

~~~
crankylinuxuser
I still see nothing wrong with that. It's words, either spoken, written, or on
a screen. It matters not that he's in person, or remote.

They could derive that from the multitude of developer FAQs, Stack Exchange,
or other sources.

Long story short, this is the US government throwing a fit about a US citizen
in NK. Have to set an example.

Now, if he gave them cryptocoins or other assets, then there might be a
legitimate case of breaking international law. But you know, there's this
pesky thing called 'proof'.

~~~
fouric
> It matters not that he's in person, or remote.

It matters very much, both legally, and morally (unless, of course, you
support the humans rights abuses going on in the DPRK[1]). The law
differentiates between words put in a book and the same words said to a
criminal in order to further a crime[2], and it's pretty obvious that Griffith
was intentionally providing assistance to a country that commits human rights
abuses that are crimes under the legal systems of many, many other countries.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea)
[2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21666553](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21666553)

------
drtillberg
Is the logical endpoint that any U.S. person with a "technical" blog might
need to block IPs from NK, Iran, Venezuela, etc? At some point the rule
swallows the exception in an open, democratic society.

~~~
gruez
AFAIK intent matters. There was a story from a while back where a seller of
"secure" android phones got busted because he was knowingly selling to
criminals. "knowingly" as in, his customers told him that they were going to
use it for illegal activities, but he sold it to them anyways. It's the same
principle why sellers of cannabis paraphernalia explicitly label their
products "for tobacco use only".

~~~
drtillberg
Looks like from a prior HN discussion, maybe if he published a book and mailed
it to the conference, it would be ok?[1]. But export of electronic code is not
ok?

I also am under the impression the case is about unlawful export, but perhaps
they're concentrating on a different theory.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7885238](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7885238)

------
bjourne
The intent of the law is to prevent individuals from harming each other.
Exactly who was harmed, or risked being harmed, by this person talking to
North Koreans about crypto currencies? This is a case about the state abusing
the law to suppress free speech.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
He asked state dept if it was ok, they told him no it would be a crime, he did
it anyway... how is anyone surprised at the result here?

~~~
syshum
I did not realize that the State Dept was the ruler of US Citizens and that we
are their subjects

Pretty sure my copy of the constitution says "We the people" form the
government not "The State Dept" forms the government

~~~
mthoms
The State Department didn't create the law that made this a crime, they merely
informed him of such. That's literally their job.

------
sneak
Can we examine for a moment how ridiculous the concept of state sanctions are?
That they can lock you up for going somewhere and teaching people things,
simply because some of the people in the government of that place commit human
rights abuses?

That does nothing but punish thousands, or, in this case, millions of people
who are themselves suffering under that country’s government.

I’ve been to North Korea. I’ve spoken to the people there and seen directly
the fear and suffering in their eyes. The DPRK government is _terrible_. The
people there need all the help, love, information, and compassion we can give
them.

The real crime is making it illegal to go there and do that.

Could you imagine other, more civilized countries e.g. in Europe jailing their
citizens for coming to the US to peacefully speak or present? After all, we
run indefinite detention torture prisons all over the world (or, more
specifically, human rights criminals in our government do). We (criminals in
our government) tap the phone lines and emails. We (criminals in our
government) assassinate citizens without trial. We have had thousands of
government officials fail to seek justice against our leaders for war crimes.
Nearly every accusation that can be leveled against the DPRK government can be
leveled against the US government, if at a smaller scale in most cases. How do
we do the mental gymnastics to punish normal people simply traveling and
teaching because of criminal acts committed by others they have never met?

I agree that the DPRK government is bad, just that I agree that the US
government is bad. But a country is absolutely not its government, and
punishing normal, peaceful people by the millions who happen to live with the
misfortune to be trapped in such places where the leaders are criminals or
tolerate criminals amongst themselves, or punishing people who travel to these
places to teach and speak is madness.

~~~
quazeekotl
How many non-complicit-with-the-government North Koreans do you think have
safe, unmonitored access to computers and the internet, and so can safely (or
even unsafely) use cryptocoin? If the number is not 0 it is very, very close
to 0.

We already know that the North Korean government is using cryptocoin tech to
evade international sanctions to fund their missile and nuclear programs.

How many North Korean non government officials do you suppose were permitted
to attend this conference?

Actions like this absolutely enable this terrible regime to perpetuate itself
and its horrific actions, they do little or nothing to aid any ordinary North
Koreans.

~~~
throwaway2048
Adding to this, the website of the conference says

"exclusive environment of confidentiality and contacts with the highest
government officials and engineers"

[https://nkcryptocon.com/](https://nkcryptocon.com/)

Somehow I doubt the aspirations of this conference were to liberate the North
Korean people.

With respect to internet restrictions in North Korea

"Whereas the real Internet is reserved for a select and trusted few, everyone
else in North Korea gets access to a national, walled-off intranet, a "pseudo
Internet," available for public use called Kwangmyong. "

[https://money.cnn.com/2014/12/22/technology/security/north-k...](https://money.cnn.com/2014/12/22/technology/security/north-
korean-internet/index.html)

There is no chance this conference was anything except a tool for the
leadership to exploit cryptocoin.

