
System76 on US Manufacturing and Open Hardware - reddotX
https://blog.system76.com/post/179592732883/system76-on-us-manufacturing-and-open-hardware
======
jchw
I'm very excited for this. I have a pretty nasty love/hate relationship with
my personal Thinkpad P51. It's a fantastic device on paper, and the build
quality is great to match, but... I try to boot Linux and I remember why Linus
once gave Nvidia the finger all over again. Even on Thinkpad, issues you
wouldn't see with nearly any Linux desktop system crop up when Optimus is
thrown into the mix. Nouveau actually outperforms proprietary Nvidia drivers
in certain circumstances, which had me extraordinarily confused.

It would be nice to boot into a laptop actually designed to use Linux from the
ground up. And I don't mean what Dell does - I'm grateful for what they do,
but I really want unmodified Linux to work as well on my laptop as it does on
nearly any desktop I've built. System76, with both properties that they are
going open with firmware and designs, AND building entirely for Linux, seems
perfect to me.

I wonder a lot about their stated goal of a completely open compute platform.
Sure, there's ISAs like RISC-V on the horizon, but I get the feeling many
components like GPUs are quite far away from having open source equivalents
that can act as drop-in replacements. There's a whole lot more than raw
computation in modern CPUs and certainly more in the motherboard. Id still be
moderately pleased with a "mostly" open platform, which is better than today
where your choices are basically Lemote Yeeloong or something useful but
nearly entirely closed off.

~~~
jdiez17
I don't understand your assertion that unmodified Linux does not work "as well
as on any desktop" on Dell laptops. I'm typing this on an XPS 13 9343, running
the mainline Linux kernel from the Arch Linux repositories, and everything
works flawlessly out of the box (WiFi, Bluetooth, touchpad, audio, OpenGL,
webcam, extremely low power consumption, etc). To be fair, kernel patches were
necessary to fix some issues with the behaviour of the sound card when the
laptop was new, but right now everything as reliable is as you can hope for.
Granted, it only has Intel's built-in GPU, but that is more than enough for
what I do on this machine.

Another thing I really like about Dell is that their products are designed to
be repairable. The service manuals for their computers are freely available
online[1] and even private customers can buy replacement parts directly from
them. I've replaced the keyboard and the hinges on the screen before, and soon
I will get a fresh battery to extend the life of this lovely machine even
longer.

[1] e.g. for my laptop: [https://downloads.dell.com/manuals/all-
products/esuprt_lapto...](https://downloads.dell.com/manuals/all-
products/esuprt_laptop/esuprt_xps_laptop/xps-13-9343-laptop_service%20manual_de-
de.pdf)

~~~
jchw
Mainline Linux eventually works on Dell laptops, like most vendors, but I've
learned the hard way that this is far from guaranteed and out of the gate most
laptops that come with Linux (not just Dell) are modified.

You can see the disclaimer that Ubuntu puts on all their certifications:

[https://certification.ubuntu.com/hardware/201410-15913/](https://certification.ubuntu.com/hardware/201410-15913/)

.. Which may well not apply to this laptop in particular, but it absolutely
applies to laptops I've used.

Notably absent from the certification list is the XPS 15, which is sad because
personally it's the one I'd want. From what I've seen of Linux running on XPS
15, it isn't great, though it is "functional."

~~~
sudo-i
Typing from my dell xps 15... what "isn't great" about it?

~~~
gshulegaard
I bought a 9343 XPS 13 on release and it was horrible. Overtime it got better,
but on first boot here is a list of issues it had:

* Resume from suspend didn't work and often left machines in an usable state. Relatively simple workaround was to disable suspend but definitely caught you off guard the first couple times.

* Keyboard would insert multiple characters per key press. This made the machine unusable without an external keyboard.

* There was a null pointer issue in the WiFi driver so if you were connected to WiFi but tried to switch networks it would trigger a full blown kernel panic. Workaround was to buy a USB -> Ethernet adapter so you could line in your network.

* Track pad issues to the point that the laptop required an external mouse.

I don't know if I remember all of the issues, but you can dig through the Dell
Sputnik forum to find all sorts of old forum posts about issues...here is one
from my own post history:

[https://www.dell.com/community/Linux-Developer-
Systems/Vario...](https://www.dell.com/community/Linux-Developer-
Systems/Various-issues/m-p/4635242#M3989)

I spent a lot of time reporting, debugging, fixing, and helping other users
try to fix issues in the early days.

In Dell's defense, they upstreamed the fixes so fixing a lot of the issues
like resume from suspend and the keyboard was as simple as updating kernels.
Additionally, the null pointer WiFi driver bug was fixed in a subsequent
driver release.

But these changes didn't get included until several kernel releases later and
the only way to unbrick/make the laptop usable was to hotfix/upgrade your
kernel to an unstable version. But for a $1500+ laptop to come out of the box
in an unusable state was extremely painful for early adopters. And I would say
that my experience was far from perfect.

Sounds like they have improved greatly and I am still a tremendous supporter
of the Sputnik effort at Dell (and overall fan)...but I (personally) wouldn't
dismiss people's comments about it being imperfect.

~~~
contras1970
that list reads like my typical woes with MS Windows... half the time or more
they're caused by the hardware, not the software: ask anyone who does device
driver programming.

back in the day (Windows XP era) i bought components and built a gaming
computer, nothing extravagant but Windows, because games. there was a very
narrow window between the newly installed vanilla OS booting up and BSODing.
the problem disappeared once i managed to install drivers from the CD that
came with the motherboard (had to act quick before the BSOD would hit).

hardware is crap.

    
    
        commit 277918494930ec3fb0c7fdbd4d35060a3bc6d181
        Author: imp <imp@FreeBSD.org>
        Date:   Thu Oct 25 17:17:11 2018 +0000
    
            Update comment for AMI00[12]0 override.
         
            The AML is even stupider than always returning 0. It will only return
            non-zero for an OS that reports itself as "Windows 2015", at least
            on the Threadripper board's AML that I've examined.
         
            Those AMLs also suggest we may need this quirk for AMI0030 as well.
            There may be other cases where we need to override the _STA in a
            generic way, so we should consider writing code to do that.
    
        diff --git a/sys/dev/acpica/acpi.c b/sys/dev/acpica/acpi.c
        index 515370d5584..bed7ecd411c 100644
        --- a/sys/dev/acpica/acpi.c
        +++ b/sys/dev/acpica/acpi.c
        @@ -2222,10 +2222,10 @@ acpi_DeviceIsPresent(device_t dev)
                status = acpi_GetInteger(h, "_STA", &s);
      
                /*
        -        * Onboard serial ports on certain AMD motherboards have an invalid _STA
        -        * method that always returns 0.  Force them to always be treated as present.
        -        *
        -        * This may solely be a quirk of a preproduction BIOS.
        +        * Certain Treadripper boards always returns 0 for FreeBSD because it
        +        * only returns non-zero for the OS string "Windows 2015". Otherwise it
        +        * will return zero. Force them to always be treated as present.
        +        * Beata versions were worse: they always returned 0.
                 */
                if (acpi_MatchHid(h, "AMDI0020") || acpi_MatchHid(h, "AMDI0010"))
                        return (TRUE);

------
jimnotgym
> Then we tried finding factory space in Colorado. That was much harder than
> expected and it took a full year.

This is amongst the things stacked against people trying to do business in the
UK. I know a distributor that wanted a small warehouse with office space. They
had the capital to buy and build. But in the ex- industrial that land of the
UK no land could be found, despite the acres of tumble down old factories!
There is a government controlled project for anyone wanting to build a huge
factory, but nothing smaller.

One of the problems in the UK is land-banking and a tax system that encourages
you to invest in land and leave it as wasteground.

~~~
Arnt
I've experienced the same for office space in two countries. A kindly and
clueful real-estate person eventually explained that small deals aren't
worthwhile, sorry about that, no insult intended.

~~~
jimnotgym
We are talking $70-80k a year in rent... But judging by the enormous
warehouses down the road, only running a supermarket distribution hub is
viable.

------
CodeArtisan
> _We’ll continue to open source more functionality. Eventually, all that will
> be left are proprietary hardware initialization bits and convincing Intel
> and AMD to open up there. We think there’s reason for optimism. Intel
> contributes lots of code to Linux and AMD graphics drivers are open source
> already. Maybe open hardware is next for them. Let’s keep pushing._

Even if AMD would like to, they probably could not because of cross-licensing.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-
licensing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-licensing)

[https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/2488/000119312509236...](https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/2488/000119312509236705/dex102.htm)

------
Animats
_At our facility, we take in US-sourced sheet metal, aluminum extrusions, and
other raw materials. ... We use components that we source outside the US, like
the motherboard, memory, and drives._

So these guys just make the case.

What's the point? You're not going to get a more secure machine that way.

~~~
celrod
Over on Phoronix, folks seem to have been much more excited about the Talos II
by Raptor Computing Systems. They come with IBM POWER9 CPUs.

"The Talos™ II mainboard is the first modern (post-2013), owner-controllable,
workstation- and enterprise-class mainboard. Built around the brand-new IBM
POWER9 processor, and leveraging Linux and OpenPOWER™ technology, Talos™ II
allows you to secure your data without sacrificing performance. Designed with
a fully owner-controlled CPU domain, you can audit and modify any portion of
the open source firmware on the Talos™ II mainboard, all the way down to the
CPU microcode. This is an unprecedented level of access for any modern
workstation- or enterprise-class machine, and one that is increasingly needed
to assure safety and compliance with new regulations, such as the EU's GDPR. "

[https://www.raptorcs.com/content/TL2WK2/intro.html](https://www.raptorcs.com/content/TL2WK2/intro.html)

While also not 100% open, it sounds like a lot more important bits are.

The Talos machines sure are pricey though.

~~~
chrsw
People claim to want open hardware and the security you get from not being
forced to trust a variety of companies. But then when it's time to put their
money down suddenly freedom is too expensive. This is exactly why we've
arrived in this position in the first place.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
Talos is following the Tesla Master Plan. You can't afford a Tesla Roadster?
That's fine, the people who can will buy it, that covers the R&D and the next
model will be cheaper.

------
hawski
I may sound like a broken record, but I'm hoping for a laptop with NXP's
iMX8M. The same SoC that will be in Purism Libre 5. Mainline kernel with open
source GPU drivers. Etnaviv may need more work, but with more hardware
available it will be easier, as more work could be shared.

~~~
jbf1001
I've not heard of Purism before. Have you ever owned any of their products and
how was your experience?

~~~
stamps
I have their latest Librem 13.

I bought the base model and upgraded it with 16gb of RAM (wish I could have
done 32gb), 1TB NVMe, and a 1TB SATA SSD.

So far it is great. I've been using it as my daily driver for about 6 months
with Manjaro. I get about 8 hours of battery life unless I'm running my
Windows VM needed for some work tasks. Otherwise it's just firefox, slack-cli,
thunderbird, and webstorm.

------
hardwaresofton
If anyone from System76 is reading this thread, I just want you to know that
the Oryx Pro is my endgame -- I plan to buy it ASAP replace my desktop and
laptop as soon as I can get my hands on one.

I am a stan of your business.

~~~
eadmund
How well does it run non-Ubuntu distros? I only run Debian these days — been
burnt too many times by Ubuntu.

~~~
hardwaresofton
I don't know because I haven't bought one, but I do know they run their own
distro called Pop_OS[0] which is improved ubuntu (with likely impeccable
support for their hardware).

That in-and-of-itself is a pretty impressive investment to me, but I would
probably take it off and put arch on it. Honestly I am not too worried, it
seems like I can actually call them for support/file bugs/ask for technical
help if I actually came across an issue -- surely _someone_ over there knows
something if they want to maintain their own distro.

[0]: [https://system76.com/pop](https://system76.com/pop)

~~~
m52go
I've been running Pop for about 6 months now and it's been fantastic.

It's the first Linux distro that I've been able to run full-time, after trying
the main Ubuntu distro for 6+ years with VMs and dual-booting.

Beyond its stability and compatibility with Nvidia hardware, its design is
pretty and touch-friendly.

~~~
tracker1
Thanks for the comments on this, I'm generally skeptical with these things...
my only linux desktop is currently running Elementary, which I've liked a lot,
but nice hardware support will be great. Still running a late 2014 (iirc) rMBP
for my laptop, may swap out late next year or the year after.

I'm tired of the stuff Apple pulls, so would be nice to see a good/supported
linux distro for hardware. I've been bitten too many times trying to maintain
Linux on a primary desktop/laptop (hackintosh has been easier for me).

------
xenadu02
How are they not going to go out of business when cheap Chinese competitors
copy their open source design?

~~~
wmf
I think this misunderstands System76's business. Today they are selling
rebranded Clevo laptops so they are already facing cheap Chinese
competitors... and yet they stay in business because what they are really
selling is Linux certification, branding, support, warranty, etc.

~~~
acomjean
Exactly this.

I bought one (an Oryx) to replace a macbook because it comes all set up and
ready to go (no driver problems, no tinkering needed). I know it would have
been cheaper to buy a machine and install linux on it but its a lot of extra
work. I'd honestly just rather pay them to deal with it.

I'm using there OS (pop!) which is Ubuntu based, and works fine (although I'm
not sure why they have there own OS, it gave me pause frankly, they have
Ubuntu as well). It works well and seems to have updates quite frequently.

I really like the machine, its had no problems and has been easy to setup and
use. There are some minor things I don't love, the battery life isn't great
and I have to reboot to switch video cards (the laptop has 2 and only one
supports external screens).

But jetbrains software works and the web works fine, so I'm pretty happy.

~~~
gizmo686
>although I'm not sure why they have there own OS.

I think this makes sense. Their core bussiness is producing an integrated
Linux hardware/software package. When a compatability issue comes up, they
probably don't want to have to wait on a third party to resolve it; especially
when they can still leverage most of the work that said third party does (and;
I presume, contribute back their work).

~~~
rlpb
Anyone can hold any status in Ubuntu regardless of who they work for. This is
explicitly stated in Ubuntu's code of conduct which doubles as a sort of
constitution. They could be Ubuntu developers themselves; then they wouldn't
have to "wait on a third party" to resolve anything.

~~~
jononor
Yes but anything that goes into Ubuntu needs to work on all systems, not just
System 76 devices. This would like reduce the realistic rate of change, even
if they were (co-)maintainers of all the relevant packages.

~~~
tbiteteitb
Not necessary to upstream packages to Ubuntu Repositories when they could set
their own repositories (which I assume it's how they mantain their distro)

It's a matter of branding. Which is great too as long as they keep up to date
with security updates and such.

~~~
jononor
I don't think Canonical would look kindly on someone shipping 'Ubuntu' with
3rd-party modifications to critical system-level packages, at least without
participating in the Ubuntu Desktop certification program.

------
PopeDotNinja
I'm not a hardware design guy. I did work as a QA engineer at Transmeta, a
90s/00s CPU company for 2.5 years. My sense of things was the hardest part of
delivering CPUs was the manufacturing, not the design. Building a chip took
several weeks, debugging hardware was hard, and thr feedback loop was
relatively long. The best designed chip could be damn slow if manufacturing
was not optimal at every step. I'd guess there's not much risk in opening up
the chip designs, and it might even make chip design cheaper, faster, and
higher quality. Building a fab that can build chips sounds hard no matter what
you do.

Am I speculating in the right direction?

~~~
pkaye
It all depends. If you are using existing IP, then the design part might be
shorter. Conversely if you are using a proven process from a contact fab, you
just need to follow their design rules and they will do all the manufacturing
work for you. But companies like Intel, AMD, Nvidia push the boundaries of
everything. They have separate teams working in parallel on different aspects
(design, fab, etc) and generations of products.

------
dragosmocrii
I bought a Gazelle Pro in 2011 and the thing still works great(paid 1600$ at
the time). I only upgraded the RAM from 8 to 16 GB and put in an SSD. Last
year I was considering buying the Oryx, but since the Gazelle works so great,
I don't see any need for new purchases. I never had any issues. Only game I
played was LoL, and it worked smoothly at highest settings.

------
justinjlynn
These systems still rely on closed, untrustworthy x86 hardware and mainboard
implementations. I'd hardly call it more open than anything Purism provide,
except perhaps for the custom case and backplane (which isn't much, in terms
of the system design)

That said, it's a step forward. I look forward to seeing what System76 do
next.

~~~
bo1024
\- I agree that eliminating those closed components is a good goal

\- I think we should avoid setting the main bar for system76 at purism or vice
versa. I say this as a big Purism fan, reading this post is very exciting for
all fans of openness in computing.

~~~
justinjlynn
Oh, I agree. The bar shouldn't be set any lower than completely open systems.
Unfortunately, while they remain on x86 - and Intel and/or AMD refuse to
manufacture chips without the Management Engine or the Platform Security
Processor or provide documentation - they'll always be less open than
alternative architecture implementations like RISC-V's SiFive or OpenPOWER's
IBM POWER and their vendors/integrators like Raptor Computing Systems.

------
rooam-dev
Any chance to get a >= 15" model with a centered keyboard? In not so distant
future maybe? :)

~~~
matart
This would be amazing! Not a fan of the numpad on my laptop.

------
syntaxing
Pretty excited but part of me is kind of disappointed that the unit is a
desktop rather than a laptop (from the teaser pics)

------
moocowtruck
system76.. i recently dropped 2600 on one; after a few months of use I can't
say i'm that impressed, and running linux on it is still not that great.. I've
since put windows 10 on for better performance and functionality..which i
didn't think would be something i'd end up doing.. but here i am.. next time
it's unlikely i'll go with them again;

one killer feature i bought this was for the nvidia card, and it's difficult
to even type when that thing gets going because the keys get so hot my fingers
are like touching hot coals

really i wish i could get my money back

------
baybal2
Electronics manufacturing is already some of the most automated industry
around, second only to microelectronics. Human labour adds just few percents
to the end product's value, it can easily be doubled and tripled without the
market ever noticing.

The opinion that it never took of in USA because of Chinese undercut you on
labour doesn't hold water. No, automation will not do nothing about America
giving you 100 times more reasons to not to do manufacturing there other than
the cost of labour.

------
Yhippa
Does anyone have any detail about this device? From what I've read it seems
really cool. Just wish there was something to chew on before the big reveal.

~~~
tyingq
There's a little bit of info here:
[https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=System76...](https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=System76-Thelio-
Next-Week)

The marketing seems to hint at premium product / premium price.

------
hosh
How are the trackpad on the system76 laptops? Any as good as the MBP? or at
least as good as the Dell XPS13?

------
swlkr
I'm pretty excited about system76 and purism, hoping for a linux based
alternative to the macbook pro

------
dorfsmay
I would love to support them, but I need a trackpoint and 3 buttons.

~~~
KerrickStaley
The three physical buttons are an anti-feature for me personally, because they
reduce the size of the trackpad. And the trackpoint is a net neutral. I've
used ThinkPads on and off for years and I still feel like a trackpad is more
efficient than a trackpoint.

~~~
_emacsomancer_
I like the ThinkPads best where the size of the touchpad/trackpoint is reduced
to the logical extreme. (It wasn't until I discovered ThinkPads, and
specifically TrackPoints, that I could use a laptop as a "lap" top. I just
unplug the touchpad on models which have 'em as I'll only ever touch it by
mistake.)

------
agumonkey
Weren't patents designed because they were beneficial to society (and to
people who had ideas) ?

I think these days patents are mostly high resistance and very few social
value.

~~~
crankylinuxuser
Its because the old system prior to patents was the guild system.

The biggest problem with guilds was the massive amount of information lost. So
the balance was "tell is how you did it clearly, and you get protections for
20 years-ish".

Turns out the description of what and how is easily games with horrendous
legalese language.

~~~
agumonkey
This is why I believe that open hardware could be a solution nowadays. 100
years ago, a patent had lots of benefits. Today there's more side effects than
social value. We could share, solve, enjoy more buy having a bit of reusable
open parts and machines.

------
Uhrheber
And then the NSA intercepts your shiny new open hardware on the way to the
customer, and inserts some nasty closed source spying device.

~~~
deno
If you’re _targeted_ by NSA you are going to lose anyway. Sanity, if nothing
else.

------
luord
I was having doubts on buying a System76 machine next, this lessened those
doubts significantly.

------
mevile
It's awesome that they're doing all this within the US but I tried to design
an Oryx yesterday I just wanted a nice graphics card, 32gb of ram and the 1tb
ssd and it quickly approached Apple prices. I understand the underlying
components aren't cheap but I don't think companies that aren't operating at
Apple's scale, who has some of the brightest engineering hardware and software
minds in the world, have any business charging close to $3k for a laptop for
similar specs.

I'm guessing the cost is due to being based in the US. I just want a nice
laptop for a reasonable cost, I'm not concerned where it's built. Where a
laptop was made doesn't make any difference to how I use it or what it does
for me. If System76 is close to Apple prices for similar specs I might as well
just buy a Macbook Pro.

~~~
cwyers
Scale provides, well, economies of scale. If you want to buy from a smaller
outfit, then expect to not get economies of scale.

------
wmf
In other words, the case is open and manufactured in the US while the part the
matters—the motherboard—is proprietary and made in China.

~~~
kiwidrew
But they've actually gone one step further than just manufacturing their own
case: the "Thelio Io" board that they mention looks very much like a
replacement for (part of) the motherboard's "embedded controller" (EC)
functionality, and all of the design files and source code [1] certainly seems
to meet the criteria to be called open hardware with open source firmware.

For some context, the EC in most laptops is usually a highly proprietary ASIC
(good luck even finding a datasheet) running a blob of proprietary firmware on
an 8051 core. It's responsible for handling the power and lid switches,
sequencing the powering on and off of the main system CPU, controlling fan
speed and temperature sensors, etc.

[1] [https://github.com/system76/thelio-
io](https://github.com/system76/thelio-io)

------
bovermyer
I've been eyeing a Meerkat for awhile now. Is there going to be a Thelios
equivalent?

------
holmberd
I hope they have a better battery this time around.

------
antoineMoPa
As soon as I'm not a student anymore and have a career, I buy one. Before
then, any laptop I buy will be under 450$ CAD.

~~~
captn3m0
I bought the Galago Pro in my last year of college from my CTF winnings.
Worked out great.

~~~
elliottlocke
How's the battery life on that?

~~~
captn3m0
The battery swelled just after the end of first year, so I had to replace it.
The replacement still gives me around 2-3 hrs depending on usage.

This is the old Galago Pro (I reviewed it at [0]), not the new aluminium one.

[0]: [https://captnemo.in/blog/2014/07/04/galago-ultra-pro-
review/](https://captnemo.in/blog/2014/07/04/galago-ultra-pro-review/)

