
Autistic Prodigies Since “Rain Man” - dnetesn
http://nautil.us/issue/56/perspective/autistic-prodigies-since-rain-man
======
turingcompeteme
It's nice that "Autistic Prodigies" are gaining more attention, and that some
of that attention is starting to focus more on the problems these kids face
instead of just their abilities.

My significant other works in a classroom of kids who are on the spectrum. One
of her boys, 6 years old I believe, has the entire transit map (all routes,
stop numbers, and stop times) memorized for one of the largest cities in the
world. When you meet him he asks what bus or train you take, and then he
recites back to you every single stop number on the route and the next 10
arrival times at each stop. It's awe inspiring.

But that's on a good day for him. On a bad day he just sits and pretends he is
a transit driver, going through the routes in his mind, for 10 or 12 hours at
a time. Any type of interruption results in loss of control and mayhem.

There is a huge amount of work to do in this area still. Most of these kids
with incredible abilities are not receiving the help and support they need in
order to ever be in a position where they can join society and use them for
good.

~~~
wst_
Indeed, it's nice. And yet I can't stop wondering why no one ever write
articles about much larger group of autistic people whom fate is much worse,
IMHO. I am talking about the kids, but most importantly about adults, who are
almost normal, to the point that you wouldn't notice in most cases, unless
they do something strange occasionally (HFA, mild Asperger's, mild autism.)
About all these creeps, weirdos, nerds and morons without friends, very often
in deep depression, sometimes suicidal. Bullied in childhood and very often
having good job and being an experts in what they do. Lonely experts usually -
creep once, creep forever, you know. These people require attention, too.
Attention and social recognition. And so often you can read only about baby
cases and savants.

~~~
Nav_Panel
_> And yet I can't stop wondering why no one ever write articles about much
larger group of autistic people whom fate is much worse, IMHO_

Second half of this first:

 _> autistic people whom fate is much worse, IMHO_

It's astounding to me that you find "creeps, weirdos, nerds and morons without
friends" to be a worse fate than "On a bad day he just sits and pretends he is
a transit driver, going through the routes in his mind, for 10 or 12 hours at
a time".

I'm one of those miserable "bullied in childhood" types and I'm still thankful
that I'm able to participate in society and pursue my interests. A severely
disabled person will never be able to do this. I can think up ethical
frameworks that'd result in the judgment that social misfits have it worse
than extremely disabled individuals, but they'd be tough to justify on various
levels.

 _> no one ever write articles [about nerds]_

They do, if you know where to look[1][2]... but they're unpopular, for various
reasons (cultural zeitgeists, also consider the nature of
popularity/zeitgeists and how a "nerd" might fit into that).

1:
[https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091#comment-326664](https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091#comment-326664)

2:
[http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/](http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/)

~~~
wst_
I am sorry if you read my comment literally. When I said the names above I've
got in mind something exactly opposite. That they are often used while they
should not be. That people should understand better, but instead they choose
to use names. I should better shape my thoughts.

As for the fate... I think we should change the angle a little bit. Autistic
brain walks different paths, as you know already. The transit driver may not
care what his peers are thinking about his interest. There are no peers
anyway. I could assume that fate of the closest relatives is not an easy one,
but the transit driver himself might be a happy person. He can follow his
"special interests", he is focused, he's doing what he likes whole day - this
is what keeps him satisfied. You may be happy about social interaction you
have been able to pursue. But there are plenty of others who don't care about
that aspect of life. Even more, they value a solitude better than being with
the crowd. For a neuro-typical person his state of mind may be treated as
disability, for him it might be a blessing. On the other hand many autistic
adults, especially if they aren't diagnosed (or not properly so), have a lot
doubts. They are aware about their peers, social circles forming above and
below but very often out of reach, about loneliness. They have to live their
lives with constant feeling that there is something wrong with them. I know
people, and read about them too, an adults that got revelation after stumbling
upon ASD traits list. Many claim this event was a life changer.

~~~
Nav_Panel
_> When I said the names above I've got in mind something exactly opposite_

I wasn't making a judgment about the terms "creeps, weirdos, nerds and
morons", I was merely reaching for a shorthand to refer to the groups you were
discussing. I could have substituted in "people with mild autism" and have
made the same point.

 _> but the transit driver himself might be a happy person. He can follow his
"special interests", he is focused, he's doing what he likes whole day_

Let's consider this. The original poster points at something interesting:

 _> There is a huge amount of work to do in this area still. Most of these
kids with incredible abilities are not receiving the help and support they
need in order to ever be in a position where they can join society and use
them for good._

The OP believes that there exists an idea of goodness extending beyond
oneself, relating to joining society and acting. Perhaps what we, as members
of society, want is not a happy life, but a _meaningful_ life[1]. Happiness is
relatively easy in comparison, we have drugs that can provide it on demand
(opiates, for example).

Religious practices were aware of this divide between happiness and
meaningfulness, with the most obvious example being Protestantism, whose
practices directly support the idea that but hard work = a good life. But,
it's ultimately up to you to decide to what ends you want to live your life.
Perhaps the fact that you have the ability to make this decision, while a low-
functioning person does not, is what makes the original claim (about high-
functioning individuals having a worse fate than low-functioning individuals)
absurd.

1: [http://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-
attachments/1547772/cf4bc2ae6f...](http://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-
attachments/1547772/cf4bc2ae6ff144e9cd581c8c30af2d67.pdf?1514839873)

EDIT: if you're up for some reading, I was informed of this essay[2] by
philosopher Thomas Nagel which addresses some of these topics:

 _> Suppose an intelligent person receives a brain injury that reduces him to
the mental condition of a contented infant, and that such desires as remain to
him can be satisfied by a custodian, so that he is free from care. Such a
development would be widely regarded as a severe misfortune, not only for his
friends and relations, or for society, but also and primarily, for the person
himself. This does not mean that a contented infant is unfortunate. The
intelligent adult who has been reduced to this condition is the subject of the
misfortune. He is the one we pity, though of course he does not mind his
condition. It is in fact the same condition he was in at the age of three
months, except that he is bigger. If we did not pity him then, why pity him
now; in any case, who is there to pity? The intelligent adult has disappeared,
and for a creature like the one before us, happiness consists in a full
stomach and a dry diaper._

 _> If these objections are invalid, it must be because they rest on a
mistaken assumption about the temporal reelation between the subject of a
misfortune and the circumstances which constitute it. If, instead of
concentrating exclusively on the oversized baby before us, we consider the
person he was, and the person he could be now, then his reduction to this
state and the cancellation of his natural adult development constitute a
perfectly intelligible catastrophe._

2: [http://dbanach.com/death.htm](http://dbanach.com/death.htm)

~~~
wst_
> The OP believes that there exists an idea of goodness extending beyond
> oneself, relating to joining society and acting. Perhaps what we, as members
> of society, want is not a happy life, but a meaningful life[1].

> (...) in order to ever be in a position where they can join society and use
> them for good

But you are still judging the person as NT, which seems strange to me
especially as you mentioned in previous comment you are autistic as well
(unless I've read that incorrectly.) You should know in the first place that
it is not up to you or me to judge the meaning of someones life, and
especially autistic life. I said before that autistic brain works differently
and this still applies. It works so differently that NT/ND comparison doesn't
make any sense.

What if they don't want to be a member of the society? What if many of them
care about society no more than about weather the other day? [1] You might be
unaware, but lot of autistic people feel pride in how different they are, how
autism shaped their lives and they wouldn't switch back to be NT if you gave
them such option.

That being said I am not stating that low autistic people never seek for an
interaction, understanding or just thoughts sharing. I am just stating that
there is such a possibility. Even if they do, there is not much NT society can
do fulfill their needs.

> He is the one we pity, though of course he does not mind his condition.
> (...) If we did not pity him then, why pity him now; in any case, who is
> there to pity? The intelligent adult has disappeared and for a creature like
> the one before us (...)

This. Exactly this. "We", "pity" and "creature." Author is happily measuring
above mentioned person by his own ruler, his and the society he lives in (and
stays in this manner throughout the essay.) It didn't occurred to him, or he
decided to ignore the fact, that the subject is completely different person,
now. It would be impossible to perceive the world as the subject so we have to
extrapolate. But by doing so we must be aware that our own judgements does not
apply anymore. We must throw away our pity. Do not try to be emphatic because
you have no slightest idea how the subject feels.

1:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/aspergers/comments/7jw22y/i_dont_mi...](https://www.reddit.com/r/aspergers/comments/7jw22y/i_dont_miss_people/)

Edit: Changed "normal" to "NT" in one place. Overall point stays the same.

------
o098310o
I don't want to comment on the article directly, but be cautious when Treffert
is cited. One of his books mentions that 10% of autistic savants have ESP and
that reincarnation might account for another savant's abilities. Savant
research is not done well, and the media tends to amplify whatever comes from
cited experts.

For a sample, read the article below, including the sidebar.

[https://www.khaleejtimes.com/business/mind-reading-
sharjah-g...](https://www.khaleejtimes.com/business/mind-reading-sharjah-girl-
exceedingly-rare-savant)

------
msla
Not a nitpick, just as a point of interest: The man Raymond Babbitt was based
off of in _Rain Man_ wasn't autistic: His name was Kim Peek, and he had FG
syndrome, which causes a constellation of physical effects including agenesis
of the corpus callosum. He was, in fact, quite an amazing man, and a savant,
with an amazing memory and a gift for speed-reading out of each eye
separately, one for each page.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Peek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Peek)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FG_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FG_syndrome)

Anyway, very good article.

~~~
wst_
They changed diagnosis later, isn't it? Wiki says around 2008, so long after
the movie release. I can only assume that at the time of shooting, diagnosis
was "autism."

~~~
msla
Right.

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hunta2097
My son has (pretty severe) autism, he can tell you the day of the week for a
date... pretty much any date going back to the fifties.

We (and his teachers) can't work out how he does it. I think at some point
he's sat in front of a PC calendar and memorised it!

~~~
mrdmnd
He may just be quick at executing the Doomsday algorithm - neurotypical here,
but I enjoyed learning this trick, and you can too:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_rule)

~~~
hunta2097
I've tried to get to explain to me how he does it, he can't.

He can also recite the US and UK release dates for most kids films (he learns
them from Wikipedia)... and then he can subsequently tell you the day of the
week!!

Most of his tricks are based on his amazing memory, he recites long sections
from film and TV shows years after watching them.

~~~
pas
> I've tried to get to explain to me how he does it, he can't.

That doesn't mean his brain haven't developed the same algorithm for it.

The brain is exceptional at noticing patterns. Some people's brains are very
preoccupied with numbers, and abstract data. (Some people like spotting
license plates, some can't even look away.)

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oaxacaoaxaca
Thank you for sharing this. With a 3yo son on the spectrum, many points here
resonated with me. It was nice to see at least one other family doing
Floortime--we're thrilled with the results we're seeing and are just surprised
how little popularity the program has.

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sillysaurus3
[Removed. Sorry, I meant to post this comment in the SpaceX thread.]

~~~
cavanasm
It looks like you meant to post this in the thread about SpaceX claiming their
rocket worked great.

