
Ask HN: Moonlight without violating employment contract? - throw_side_hust
Hi!<p>tl;dr: I work at Google, don&#x27;t want to be fired, but want to start some side businesses&#x2F;experiments online. Advice on getting started?<p>My family really needs our health insurance right now, and I make great income. However I&#x27;m slowly dying inside every day at work. I would like to do something more creative and more in my control, just to try and see how it goes. However, it&#x27;s unacceptable right now for me to lose our health insurance &#x2F; miss payments on our mortgage.<p>How do I validate what I&#x27;m actually risking based on what I do? I fear that if I actually try to go through corporate legal they&#x27;ll just say &quot;no&quot; and now have it on record they said no, thus a fire-able offense if I try anything. Lawyer recommendations maybe?<p>Thanks for any pointers! I have a lot saved up so maybe I&#x27;ll just leap, but I&#x27;d love to moonlight a bit and get some market data first so I can make a more educated gamble.
======
twunde
Take a look at your employment contract (you'll need this anyway when you talk
to a lawyer). Many contracts will have clauses about outside work/IP rights
etc. The enforcement of these clauses depend on your location (and to some
extent Google's). To that end, it would be useful to mention approximately
where you're based (NYC, CA, Seattle, etc), especially to garner useful lawyer
recommendations.

If/when you do moonlight, make sure that you do NOT use company assets to do
so. Do NOT use your corporate issue laptop or your corporate email. Typically
anything created using company assets is considered company-owned. Also
anything that directly competes with Google is dicey.

~~~
throw_side_hust
I am in the bay.

Great point, I would definitely be using 0 corporate resources for any work I
do for myself. I would not want to do anything in a gray area, thus the
questions.

~~~
finsrud
Here's a plain English explanation from Joel Spolsky:
[https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-
pr...](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/)

------
finsrud
If you happen to be in California...

Section 2872 of the California Labor Code prohibits your employer from taking
ownership of anything that you develop entirely on your own time without using
your employer's equipment, supplies, facilities or trade secret information,
EXCEPT for those things that either:

(a) Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice to your
employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or
development; or

(b) Result from any work performed by you for your employer.

~~~
throw_side_hust
Yes, I am in the bay. I read this labor code, but figuring out what actually
is covered by a. seems difficult with such a large corporation.

~~~
welder
Almost nothing is covered by a. Just do b and you'll be fine. Quote from a
book:

"Keep Calm and Carry On"

Don't tell Google about it (but do declare it on any future employment
agreements), make sure your team is happy with your performance, don't use
company resources and your job/insurance will be fine. Let that settle in,
afterwards thinking more is a waste of time.

There's many examples of Google employees building side projects that turn
into companies. [1] Let that precedent keep you calm.

1: [https://sandstorm.io](https://sandstorm.io)
[https://sourcegraph.com](https://sourcegraph.com)
[https://www.businessinsider.com/20-enterprise-startups-
forme...](https://www.businessinsider.com/20-enterprise-startups-former-
google-employees-2019-6)

~~~
kentonv
Note that sandstorm.io (and Cap'n Proto) was written 100% after I left Google,
so I'm not sure if that's a great example.

I would not recommend working on a future startup while still at Google,
_unless_ the work is 100% open source and approved. If it's open source,
you'll have an easier time getting it approved if you let Google keep
copyright. This should be fine because they cannot retroactively revoke the
license, so your startup will be able to use it under the terms of the open
source license.

If you're writing proprietary code, you are putting your future startup at
risk. It's not just that Google might come after you (this is actually
unlikely, since it's bad PR for Google), but you may have a hard time getting
investors if your IP rights aren't in order. Investors do care about this
stuff.

California law does not work well as a defense since Google essentially claims
that all code relates to its business in some way.

------
saluki
Chances are you aren't going to create anything GOOG is interested in anyway.

Just don't attach your name to anything you create and don't mention your
projects/businesses to co workers. Don't visit them on company devices or
company wi-fi. If you want set everything up in your wife's name. You can
start out with a sole proprietorship, you can get an EIN number so you don't
have to use your social. Setup an LLC when you get traction on something.

You should be fine, it's a long road to making something profitable enough to
leave your GOOG job though.

Check out startupsfortherestofus.com, listen to their archives good advice and
you can follow Rob's story. Drop shipping beach towels, online invoicing to an
exit from drip.com.

You'll need to stair setup up to something that replaces your income, so get
started.

------
duxup
I'll echo the talk to a lawyer with expertise in that area, who you hire, have
him look at your contract.

Get advice not just on your contract but how to draw the dividing lines
between work and your other project.

You don't want to find out later some guys on the internet might have been
wrong...

------
muzani
What happened to Google's 20% time policy? I thought that was supposed to be a
creative outlet.

~~~
welder
That's to build things owned by Google, OP wants to build something on the
side that's not owned by Google.

------
deepaksurti
Isn't it true that, at Google, if you leave `on good terms` and come back
within a year, you don't have to interview again. Why not explore that route,
if 1 year is sufficient for moonlighting and validating?

------
Trias11
1\. Follow your passion.

2\. Easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

3\. My experience: The best things came to my life after i took the risks of
violating someone's nonsense terms

------
sideprojector
I find myself in a similar position.

Shoot me an email if you are ever looking to collaborate:
sideprojector@altmails.com

