
This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again - Aco-
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/rob-rhinehart-no-longer-requires-food
======
saidajigumi
> a 24-year-old software engineer > ... > Soylent contains all of the
> nutritive components of a balanced diet

What utter bollocks. We're (as in, scientists studying nutrition and how
utterly wrong food industry has gotten that in the 20th and early 21st
century) finally starting to get our collective heads around the benefits of
whole foods vs. highly processed foods, and just how badly our bodies deal
with the latter. It may be theoretically possible to create some processed
food that's on par with the nutrition of whole foods, but I doubt that anyone
alive today knows how to do it. He may see "good" results on some metrics due
to a lack of any desire to go hypercaloric -- i.e. there's probably no
artificially boosted food reward[1] mechanisms in his glop. But that won't
make up for the glop's likely deficiencies.

So an impatient _software engineer_ comes along and claims to have whipped up
a drink that eliminates all that. A task that specialists have so far failed
at.

> "I read a textbook on physiological chemistry and took to the internet to
> see if I could find every known essential nutrient."

I've seen this enough to be sick of it; it seems to be form of the software
"everything is just an [easy] problem" mindset gone badly wrong. The
supplement and meal replacement powder/drink industry is a multi-billion
dollar market. First sanity check: _no_ staff scientists for any of these
companies thought to go look at a textbook and the intertubes and do the same
thing? DOH! Egg's on them!

Another example of this failure: when software/CS types wander off to do
experimental science (e.g. human subjects) without _any_ training in how to do
experiment design, data collection, or analysis. "Just ask 'em some
questions!" The general form of the problem seems to be a blindness to the
depths of domain knowledge required to be effective in other disciplines.

~~~
criley
You sound like an industry-insider explaining why a new startup will fail.
"They're too young!" "They don't have the experience" "We've devoted our LIVES
to figuring this out, one kid in his basement didn't do it in a few weeks!"
Etc etc

No offense but we've heard the exact same thing about every successful idea.

And what's more:

People look at the human GI totally wrong anyway. They think, what can I put
in to get the best results? When in reality, the human GI evolved to support
an extremely broad range of inputs as it's most significant factor.

With humans all over the earth eating an extremely disparate diet pre-
civilization (and even post), the most significant factor of the human GI was
it's ability to handle the wide variety of chemically diverse inputs and
provide a consistent, reliable output.

So why do you approach this, which is nothing more than a new input, and claim
that the output is going to be different? Dangerous? Impossible?

Seems to me like you're indignant with a touch of ego: "How dare he pretend to
do my job. It's an insult to me that he is doing this!" That's the feeling I
get from you reading this post.

~~~
saidajigumi
> You sound like an industry-insider explaining why a new startup will fail.

I certainly don't want to rain on some new visionary's parade, but I spend a
lot of time tracking folks who I consider to be the real visionaries in this
field. As in we are currently in the midst of the greatest revolution in human
health of our lives, and this guy is running in the wrong direction. We're
seeing _astonishing_ results with dietary remediation of a vast array of
conditions that were previously considered unrelated. And this isn't just
"remedial eating", it's discovering that our current ways of eating are
killing us but that diet can likewise help heal us. It's a Khunian revolution
out of "the pill and the scalpel" mindset and into a deeper understanding of
root causes of wide classes of disease and general unhealthiness in 21st
century society. I must certainly be writing in an aggressive posture, for
which I'll apologize. I'll have to account my overenthusiasm to the long-term
health and well-being of literally everyone I've ever met being at stake.

Current research is showing that we are only just beginning to gain
understanding of the complexity and health of the GI. An analogy is that our
GI and GI microbiota are essentially a recently discovered vital organ. One
which the industrialized western diet (now well exported globally) has been
systematically destroying. Diet has direct and immense impact on GI health,
which in turn impacts such matters as: chronic systemic inflammation,
autoimmunity, hyperinsulinism, neurotransmitter production (a vast amount of
which happens .. in the gut!), hunger signalling, and more.

I don't have time to put the references in here that this deserves, but I'll
leave you all with this to whet appetites, as it were.

Dr. Terry Wahls, "Minding Your Mitochondria":

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc>

Watch that, so my bluntness to follow makes sense. I see this guy's protocol
as nothing but poisonous in the long run. He's off and created yet another
processed food product that _must be assumed_ to fail to meet the needs of the
human body. Current research hammers home the idea that we don't yet have a
complete and constructive model of nutrition, so why in the heck should I
believe a nonspecialist that claims otherwise? Extraordinary claims,
extraordinary proof, or GTFO.

~~~
criley
> _"Extraordinary claims, extraordinary proof, or GTFO."_

> _"I see this guy's protocol as nothing but poisonous in the long run."_

You place a burden of evidence on him that you yourself in this very post
violated on a number of occasions. You CANNOT call his diet poisonous simply
because you disagree with it.

You admitted it yourself:

> _"Current research is showing that we are only just beginning to gain
> understanding of the complexity and health of the GI."_

So no offense, but you have literally no ground to say that this is poisonous
in the short OR long term, no evidence to back that up, and you cannot rely on
a field that cannot support your view.

You have a view on this, congratulations, but it is nothing more than a well-
informed opinion. It is not fact, it is not supported by fact and as you've
admitted -- it CANNOT at this point be supported by fact that does not yet
exist.

Even your link to a TEDX (aka, unvetted content) states upfront: "This talk is
a personal narrative and is not yet backed by larger experimentation."

I'm sorry, but you've been consistently and narrow-mindedly against what the
OP has put forth. You dismiss his views for their lack of credibility but turn
around and post sources that themselves have no credibility (admit to being
anecdotal).

You seem to have picked what is correct and are now looking for evidence to
support your preconceived notion. You also seem to be falling for the
naturalism fallacy by pretending that since his food is "pill and scalpel" it
is therefore wrong/bad.

Just my conclusions: obviously he hasn't posted data or even analyzed it, but
you present many issues in your posts that I disagree with more strongly than
what he puts forth (and I'm not a layman).

~~~
dasil003
> _You place a burden of evidence on him that you yourself in this very post
> violated on a number of occasions. You CANNOT call his diet poisonous simply
> because you disagree with it._

Nutrition science is in its infancy. It's clear that the complexity of the
interaction of food as it is digested and interacting with our organism has
barely had the surface scratched. Also, if you look at the rise of processed
foods along with obesity, diabetes, and other health problems that have
increased over the past century it's clear that there are some serious
problems, and they haven't been explained conclusively by this or that macro-
nutrient trend.

So given the state of the evidence, a vague evolutionary assertion that whole
foods are generally healthier than a distilled diet of completely isolated
nutrients is not granola flag-waving woowoo nonsense, it's a perfectly
reasonable belief based on imperfect evidence.

Put another way, the idea the ability to construct a perfect diet given the
knowledge we have is likely to fail due to the overwhelming number of unknown
details that simply aren't an issue when you're eating whole foods.

If this guy wants to experiment on himself than I'm happy to reap the
benefits, but I do believe it's risky. Let's not whitewash common sense just
because of "a lack of data". The fact that we have imperfect data does not
make all approaches equal, and the fact that this guy is an engineer and wants
to follow a scientific approach does automatically make his ideas superior to
someone who holds certain nutritional beliefs for slightly more hand-wavy
reasons.

~~~
gph
>Also, if you look at the rise of processed foods along with obesity,
diabetes, and other health problems that have increased over the past century
it's clear that there are some serious problems, and they haven't been
explained conclusively by this or that macro-nutrient trend.

>So given the state of the evidence, a vague evolutionary assertion that whole
foods are generally healthier than a distilled diet of completely isolated
nutrients is not granola flag-waving woowoo nonsense, it's a perfectly
reasonable belief based on imperfect evidence.

Isn't it possible that this is more indicative of the rise in an imbalanced
diet? Processed foods may have lead the majority of people into having an
imbalanced diet, but if they were instead eating a perfectly balanced diet of
processed materials like this man is doing, isn't it possible there wouldn't
be the whole diabetes, obesity, etc. health crisis?

To put it bluntly, is there actually evidence that a balanced processed diet
is any worse than a balanced whole foods diet?

If not, I think professionals should attempt to recreate this type of
experiment to find out, obviously safely on animals first. The whole principal
of science is that you don't hold onto preconceived opinions when testing
theories. Holding onto a "processed foods are bad, because look what's been
happening" POV is very unscientific and harmful.

~~~
chadillac83
This guy lost 27lbs on a balanced diet of nothing but junk food snack cakes,
cookies, and Doritos.

[http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/...](http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html)

~~~
jtheory
Ahem:

> Two-thirds of his total intake came from junk food. He also took a
> multivitamin pill and drank a protein shake daily. And he ate vegetables,
> typically a can of green beans or three to four celery stalks.

And of course, "he lost weight" doesn't unequivocally mean "he got healthier".

------
recuter
I have Crohn's and as a result had periods in my life where I was on a liquid
diet of something called Modulen for weeks and months at a time.

<http://www.nestlehealthscience.com/products/modulen_ibd> A similar, more
familiar product: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensure>

Pretty terrible experience. I had to drink close to a dozen cups of the stuff
a day and it didn't go down easy. The stuff worked however and I went back
into remission.

Defecating while on this became a very rare occurrence but otherwise almost
normal if I recall correctly. And another interesting twist: while I was very
weak, I gained some noticeable muscle mass - I imagine because this is
essentially taking protein powder consumption to an extreme.

It seems like this perhaps guy created a better version than Nestle on account
of it actually tasting good and not needing a dozen cups a day - it is not a
good lifestyle for healthy people but is very interesting as a supplement.

Drinking one can of something a day to insure you get all the nutrients
necessary, including the rare ones, is a lot easier than adhering religiously
to a very balanced diet. Sort of like a multivitamin that actually works.

~~~
MrUnderhill
Thanks for this post! I too have Crohn's (and ankylosing spondylitis), but I
had not heard of Modulen before. I also very much share the sentiments of the
article author, so I'm a bit bummed to hear you found it to be a terrible
experience.

------
grecy
_Eating to me is a leisure activity, like going to the movies, but I don't
want to go to the movies three times a day._

For anyone that doesn't understand that statement, I recommend taking a few
years off work, where you spend your time getting up early every day, doing
something all day (hiking, walking, gardening, building, whatever) and go to
bed late in the evening (i.e. Full days of activities you want to be doing). I
spent 2 years doing this, and I was shocked how much time is wasted buying,
cooking, and eating food three times a day. It's really a huge chunk of time
you can't spend doing what you want.

Now I'm back in the 9-5 routine, and it's not so obvious - partly I think
because taking time away from my desk to eat is actually nice, as-is dinner
with my girlfriend and others.

When you've got other things you'd rather be doing, eating is a time-consuming
PITA.

~~~
davidwparker
I don't know what your situation is, but personally, being married, I love
spending time cooking with my wife. For example, last night we spent 2 hours
cooking crab cakes, chocolate souffle, kale chips... it was fantastic. We both
enjoy one another's company while cooking.

For some people, it may seem like a waste of time, but for me, it's a way to
connect to other people.

~~~
tobyjsullivan
I don't think there is any argument that cooking can be a pleasant activity.
However, the truth is that's the only option because we need to eat every day.

Tonight I can get home from work and spend time with my partner cooking and
it'll be great. And after work tomorrow, if we want to spend time together, we
can cook or eat out. And the day after that... more cooking.

The opportunity here is not that we'll never cook again but, instead, that
maybe we can do something else together once in a while.

~~~
greggman
Another option is to live somewhere where there are healthy options (for
whatever definition of healthy you choose) that you can purchase. You can then
(or I can) be done in 10-15 minutes. Whether that's a cafeteria, a convenience
store, a restaurant, a waiter.

Examples: Working at a company that serves breakfast lunch and dinner I can
leave my desk, get food, eat and be back at my desk in 15 minutes. Or I can
grab food and be back at my desk in 5 minutes.

Living in Japan I could stop at a convenience store and get reasonably healthy
food on the way to, from home (at least in Tokyo you're likely to walk in
front of probably an average of 6 convenience stores between your place of
work and your home as well as many other food sources).

Living in the bay area there are places like Whole Foods that have large
relatively healthy salad/meal bars. I happen to live a 2 minute walk from one.

Note: Personally I like taking time out to eat. I dislike spending 15-60
minutes making something that's consumed in 10 but I like spending time making
something and sharing it. But still, I notice that I can eat pretty quick if
the food is pre-prepared.

~~~
xyzzy123
I so miss the convenience stores with actual edible food. In NZ they generally
just have a pie warmer :(

------
dxbydt
If he's a true programmer, he'd code up an iphone app that controls an arduino
that mixes up the precise amounts of amino acids, boron, saccharides, glucose
and polyphenols for the perfect Soylent to start his day. Maybe even post his
objective C on github so I can issue a pull request with 200% more boron. You
know, here in the bay area, we have plants that tweet when they run out of
water. I can rig up a tweetbot so his body tweets whenever he is dehydrated,
and Amazon can intercept that tweet to dropship amino acids to his kitchen
where the arduino mixes up the next batch of Soylent.

I should stop watching scifi.

~~~
Kluny
"plants that tweet when they run out of water."

Get off my damn lawn.

~~~
randomchars
But I was only trying to water your lawn! It sent me a DM!

~~~
ph0rque
"randomchars, you gotta help me... Kluny has blocked me on twitter, and I'm
like literally dying without water here!"

------
zck
>Soylent contains all of the nutritive components of a balanced diet, but with
just a third of the calories...

This worries me. It's not a misquote, either. From his blog^0 :

>...I get all the nutrition and energy I need with about 1/3 the calories the
average American consumes...

The average American consumes 2,757 calories^2 . There's a term called the
Basal Metabolic Rate. It is the amount of calories your body needs just to
keep living, without thinking about movement^2 . A sample man's basal
metabolic rate is over 1800 calories^3 . So thinking you can drop that down to
900 is suspect, especially in the long term.

[0]<http://robrhinehart.com/?p=298>

[1][http://www.livestrong.com/article/347737-the-average-
america...](http://www.livestrong.com/article/347737-the-average-american-
daily-caloric-intake/)

[2]<http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/metabolism/WT00006>

[3]<http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/> for a 5'10", 175 lbs, 30
years old, inactive man

~~~
grecy
I wonder if it's an efficiency thing.

Maybe the human body is not efficient when eating heavy, processed things like
bread, steak, etc. etc.

Is it possible that by eating only what is essential, and in the right
balances, the body is more efficient and can extract more useable energy from
what goes in?

And obviously the mix is different for every person / body type / activity
level etc. You can't do this kind of thing and not watch your weight, blood
content, etc. carefully.

~~~
youngerdryas
How is steak processed?

~~~
phil
Check out <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef_aging>

~~~
ceejayoz
If you're eating aged beef, you're going to know about it, because it's going
to be $30/pound... and this is hardly the sort of processing people should be
concerned about.

~~~
reycharles
I thought all beef was aged. I have heard the taste is unpalatable at best if
it's not aged at all. I'm really curious.

~~~
phil
I looked into this a year ago. You're right: "dry-aged beef" is the fancy
expensive stuff your yuppie butcher is selling you. "Wet-aged" is everything
else -- they pretty much stick it in a plastic bag in a brine that breaks down
tissue. If you don't do anything what you have is a curiously tough meat
product.

Wet aging is cheaper because you raise the water content (and thus the weight)
a little, whereas in dry aging you lose a bunch of moisture, and because it
only takes a week or so.

------
crusso
I think this is absolutely fascinating. I'm surprised that many think that
this type of eating is some sort of dangerous experiment. People eat crap
diets all the time. In my bachelor days, I knew several people who ate only
fast food, microwave burritos, frozen pizza, etc. Literally, these people
would almost never eat fruit and their vegetables were mostly just the beans
in their Taco Bell.

Myself, I eat almost exclusively low carb. Salads, chicken, various low carb
veggies, eggs, cheese, etc. I supplement with a lot of protein shakes to
increase muscle mass from working out. I feel fantastic, I have very little
body fat, and my mind stays much clearer than when I'm carbing.

I think the whole low-carb trend showed us that the dogma surrounding foods
and diet has been a load of crap. There are lots of approaches to eating that
can work, and many are far superior to the "food pyramid" nonsense that has
practically ruined the health of America.

Experiments like this one in eating (er, not eating) may show us things about
our metabolisms that we never realized.

I, for one, would love to get rid of most food preparation, save money, and
maybe even be healthier. Kudos to Rob Rhinehart for looking for a new approach
to the problem of sustenance.

------
SoftwareMaven
From the "recipe"[1]:

 _This mechanism can also metabolize protein and fat, but the brain can only
use Glucose for energy. In fact, the brain uses 25% of the body's glucose,
though it accounts for only 2% of its weight._

This would have me concerned if I were considering this. While 100% true, it
neglects the entire ketone metabolic pathway[2], which the brain will use fine
instead of glucose. If this something big like this has been missed (it's the
foundation of many very-low carb diets, treatments for epilepsy and other
brain disorders, etc), what subtle things have been missed?

1\. <http://robrhinehart.com/>

2\. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone_bodies>

~~~
papsosouid
Those low carb diets are also diets that reduce your ability to engage in
strenuous activities, and cause muscle wasting. The idea is to be healthy, not
to lose weight or treat epilepsy.

~~~
Evgeny
_and cause muscle wasting_

Low carb diets do not cause muscle wasting - at least if one continues to
exercise.

I.e: _Very-low-carbohydrate diets and preservation of muscle mass_

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/>

~~~
papsosouid
>Low carb diets do not cause muscle wasting - at least if one continues to
exercise.

Which you can't do because your muscles have no glycogen stores.

~~~
Evgeny
My understanding is that when carbohydrates are in short supply, then
gluconeogenesis kicks in and liver starts producing glucose from lactate,
glycerol and amino acids.

I.e. some information can be found here: _Low-Carbohydrate Diet Burns More
Excess Liver Fat Than Low-Calorie Diet, Clinical Study Finds_

[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090120074631.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090120074631.htm)

I personally did not follow a low carb diet for more than 12 weeks, but I kept
my regular 3 times per week workouts and maintained my strength while losing
about 8kg bodyweight from ~83 to ~75 kg. My workouts were fairly short (40 to
50 min), but quite intensive.

------
nickheer
I (half-Swiss) like efficiency as much as the next HN reader, but at a certain
point, efficiency must be weighed against enjoyability. I can't imagine _not_
eating a delicious roasted vegetable strudel with a balsamic vinegar
reduction, or potatoes with crème fraîche and chives in puff pastry. I delight
in the delicacy required to prepare these items, and enjoy eating them even
more.

Cooking is (obviously) an activity that is not enjoyed by everyone, but it's
an enormous leap to call it "a waste of time". Imagine, if you will, that
someone has invented a speedy way of deodorizing yourself without water and
soap, as showering is as much a waste of time. Sounds great, until you realize
that there is a reason for these rituals. It takes me away from code, writing,
and working, and offers me a moment to clear my head. What does your morning
shower take you away from? What does preparing your breakfast, a cup of
coffee, or dinner take you away from?

Not everything needs to be optimized for efficiency. If you've ever been to
France, you'll know that many people spend an hour or more at breakfast. It
slows people down, and provides them a chance to think, contemplate, and
relax. Sometimes, the very act of something being inefficient can be
beneficial in its own right.

~~~
shmageggy
I'm surprised at how many people are pointing out objective, scientific issues
with the product instead of the subjective component. Even if this stuff
worked perfectly as advertised (highly doubtful) I wouldn't buy it because I
don't share the same viewpoint as its creator. To me and you, eating isn't an
annoyance that needs to be optimized away, it's a one of the fundamental joys
of being alive.

You mentioned strudels and potatoes, and one could extend your list ad nauseum
with all of the magnificent culinary fare, all of the diverse textures and
smells, the sublime human sensory experiences that can only be shared over a
fine meal. To trade all of this for some homogeneous slop would be like
adopting artificial insemination in order to avoid having to waste time with
all of that inefficient sexual intercourse.

~~~
sxcurry
Exactly - the human body is well designed to eat and enjoy a wide variety of
foods. Many (most?) of us enjoy eating - when I travel that's one of my main
goals - to eat as much different and interesting food as possible.

Why do you think we have all sorts of teeth - canines, incisors, cuspids, etc
- not to slurp down some disgusting goo!

As far as sexual intercourse, it may be that a certain percentage of the HN
readers don't have to worry about that problem. (That's a joke BTW)

------
thejsjunky
> because "soylent" is the name of a wafer made out of human flesh and fed

Bit of nerd pedantry: this is incorrect. "Soylent" is the name of a type of
processed food. There are different kinds made from various things. "soylent
green" is a new variety introduced in this category that is supposedly made
from kelp (or something like that) but is famously made from something else
entirely.

It's actually a pretty apt name.

~~~
ellyagg
It may be apt, but it's a stupid name from a marketing perspective because of
the associations it brings to mind. I noticed how eager he was to correct the
record about the term "soylent", demonstrating a common blind spot among
technical people. He should be focused on persuasion but is wasting
attentional resources on pedantry and ego stroking.

~~~
jplur
Ah, but he's not selling it, or even publishing a list of the nutrients on his
blog.

------
mortenjorck
This is the kind of idea that will probably go nowhere, but could change the
world.

My first reaction, being an ardent lover of many ethnic cuisines, was "of
course I'd never use something like that" but then I got to this line:

 _Eating to me is a leisure activity, like going to the movies, but I don't
want to go to the movies three times a day._

Suddenly, I'm imagining "A DVR for eating." You have a steady intake of
Soylent (the name absolutely must change), and when you have time to prepare a
nice meal or go out to a restaurant, you adjust your intake ahead of time so
your hunger level is appropriate. Crazy, but now I have another ingredient for
my sci-fi universe.

~~~
tresta
I prefer the name Bachelor Chow myself, though I'd try Soylent as well. I
wouldn't want to eat it for every meal but every once in a while I'm in such a
hurry that it would be practical to do this for a period.

~~~
Zimahl
I'm glad I'm not the only one who instantly thought of Futurama. This does
seem like a food product for people who are too lazy to make even a simple
meal and clean afterwards.

~~~
jinushaun
It's not a matter of being lazy. Cooking and eating consumes hours in my day.
At least four hours a day, and typically six hrs a day if I get fancy with
cooking.

~~~
lucaspiller
Wow, you need to optimise! I spent less than an hour today cooking and eating
a healthy breakfast in the morning, and a healthy dinner (with leftovers) this
evening. I bought prepared food for lunch, but it wouldn't have taken me three
hours to cook and eat something else...

------
jbaudanza
_I read a textbook on physiological chemistry and took to the internet to see
if I could find every known essential nutrient._

The danger is that there are far more essential nutrients that we don't know
about, than nutrients that we do. And the only way to get these nutrients is
to eat a well balanced diet.

That being said, this would be amazing if it works and I applaud him for
trying.

~~~
graeme
Yes, food is complex and we can't pretend to understand how it it used by our
bodies. A whole food diet is still surely healther in ways we can't quantify.
And if it was it would be very hard to prove affirmatively.

That said, almost no one eats a whole food diet these days. I imagine this
would be a step up over 70% of the diets in modern America.

------
jacoblyles
Call me superstitious, but I believe there are unknown unknowns in our
understanding of nutrition. The human body evolved eating various fibrous
things. I'm not going to run that kind of experiment on myself.

~~~
DanHulton
Many, many people already do far, far worse to themselves with a steady diet
of fast food and other trash.

I don't think we're as delicate as you're worrying. Heck, for those people,
this is probably an easy step up.

------
shiven
Overhyped synthetic-milk or what. Another misguided 'engineer' thinking he can
'hack' a system, which modern science is still figuring out, and that too
without any controls or rigorous monitoring...

I'll check back in 5 years and see how healthy he is, assuming he sticks
solely to Soylent without problems till then.

~~~
jfb
He's a _child_. He's allowed to be dumb.

------
kscaldef
Setting aside the question of whether the subject is actually feeding his body
everything he needs (a question that he appears to readily acknowledge as
"good skepticism"), I have to wonder about the consistency of statements like
these:

    
    
        we'll have to give up many traditional foodstuffs like fresh fruits
        and veggies, which are incompatible with food processing and scale.
    
        Soylent can largely be produced from the products of local agriculture
    

If local agriculture suffices to produce Soylent, why not just eat food? What
concerns me is that it's somewhat unclear what's actually involved in
producing the constituent ingredients, whether there are limitations on how
much of them you can easily produce, and what the byproducts of the production
process are.

~~~
planckscnst
The "fresh" part comes into play here. We can be more efficient if we can
immediately process the agriculture to render the ingredients of Soylent, then
store those ingredients for a longer time or in more forgiving conditions.

~~~
checker
Freeze-drying does this, and the end result better resembles the original
food.

------
InclinedPlane
Generally speaking, one can always be correct in saying "I never have to eat
again in my life."

------
mbubb
Fascinating. The discussion as well. Surprised at how few comments there were
about the culture of eating.

Part of the reason Soylent makes sense is that we are already eating 'food-
like substances' (to paraphrase Michael Pollen) much of the time. He is just
doing it in a controlled instrumental way.

When I go to the datacenter (5 miles from the Lincoln tunnel in the
godforsaken New Jersey Meadowlands). I generally pack the same food. kefir,
beef jerky and an almond cranberry mix. Purely functional food so I can stay
there and concentrate. Is it balanced and nutritional? probably not really.

I am American and the soylent thing feels very American to me. Which is not a
bad thing. I love food and good eating but when I compare my relationship with
food and eating with my wife's it is totally different. I was raised on frozen
stringbeans with a sauce made of canned mushroom soup next to pot roast cooked
to medium well...

My wife is Korean and food is totally different - more like what I would
associate with someone from Italy or the south of France, etc. Ingredients and
process. Her kimchi or the way she cooks rice (6 kinds of grains) - the
innumerable side dishes all complementing one another, table grilled meat.
Friends, wine. Strong coffee afterwards.

I could not imagine life without that - even though much of the preparation is
time consuming. When she roasts seaweed over an open fire it takes hours. My
boys seem to eat it in minutes...

Homemade dumplings involves the whole family and flour all over the place and
a few hours of work to make about a gross of dumplings...

All of that is not something I would like to replace.

However - how often do you have a meal like that? 10 - 20 times a year.

What happens the rest of the time? There is an element of drudgery to daily
eating. I use a hand grinder and a moka stovetop pot for my coffee. A pain in
the ass - but I am addicted to the result.

Maybe a routine where you ate soylent for the instrumental times and had
festive meals when desired (or when you really craved something).

------
kafkaesque
When consuming all vitamins and minerals together, some cancel each other out.

I tried Googling some articles to back up what I'm saying. Unfortunately,
there is nothing presented in a pretty pre-packaged form. So go with this.
e.g.: CTRL + F "vitamin C supplements can destroy dietary vitamin B12" and
"Potassium" here:
<http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/926.html>

He may not be absorbing all the nutrients. Talking about absorption, through
my own experience, I believe a body absorbs naturally occurring things like
protein, carbs, and fat better than when it is isolated. Again, I couldn't
find some quick hard scientific evidence, but found very general malabsorption
of nutrients info here:
<http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000299.htm>

Generally, it is thought that loose stools means you are not absorbing
nutrients properly. So, joking aside, I am interested to know what type of
stools this man has.

I'm sure we can gain some interesting insights, albeit from one single person,
if he tracks his experience/diet properly.

~~~
VLM
"I believe a body absorbs naturally occurring things like protein, carbs, and
fat better than when it is isolated"

I will ask my farmer great-uncle to ask his cow owning friends about this, and
one of my wedding guests is/was a veterinarian and he'll likely have a lot to
say. I will say based on evidence that humans Might be the only animal who
require nutrition isolation, because I am unaware of any practice like this
with livestock or pet nutrition. Now I do have personal experience that some
farmers "mix their own" a cup of this to a sack of that to a spoon of this and
shake it up, but others just use premix, and as far as I've personally seen
even the home-mixer livestock farmers might custom mix but they then feed the
same stuff every day. I'm intentionally excluding mammals drinking milk, I've
read this guys blog and I think we can safely assume he's a young human but
well past weaning.

I don't know anyone raising pets with nutritional segregation, and I've never
heard of them accused of animal cruelty and never seen malnourished housecats
because they've eaten the same food for many years.

------
glenntzke
I am a 27 year old software engineer and am glad to see a peer researching
alternate nutrition (and it truly is just that) that doesn't boil down to
[Agent X] is EVIL or [Agent Y] is MIRACULOUS.

I have a negative appetite in the morning and used to forego breakfast. Last
year I opted for a protein and fruit shake as soon as possible after waking
and began a low-carb low-sugar diet. I highly recommend it for a lifestyle
that unavoidably includes sitting far too long in front of a computer.

His idea is taking that to an extreme - but I'm certainly interested in trying
that extreme.

------
tocomment
I'd be really curious to learn how his teeth and gums are doing. If you can
find a way to eat without ever having food touch your teeth or gums, I'd
imagine you'd have incredible oral health. Thoughts?

~~~
mjmahone17
Alternatively, it might weaken your teeth, in a similar way as being in space
weakens your bones, while running helps build bone mass.

~~~
tocomment
You could still chew gum to make sure your teeth and jaw get exercised. In
fact you probably should?

~~~
Thrall
This was my first thought. If you don't have to chew your food, your jaw
muscles will atrophy (and I believe teeth and gums may also suffer from lack
of use).

If you have to chew gum to make up for this, you're starting to lose the
simplicity which was one of the idea's main selling points. A bit like
switching from cycling to work to driving to work to save 10 minutes, then
having to spend an hour in the gym to make up for the lack of exercise.

I can't help thinking there will turn out to be many more subtle effects to
compensate for. Yes, I am a sceptic.

------
DanBC
I don't get it.

There are plenty of liquid feeds already in existence. These contain fibre and
all the other nutrients you need to survive, and they come in a variety of
flavours.

And you can have a naso-gastric tube fitted, to eat while you're doing just
about anything else.

------
impostervt
"So what’s in Soylent, exactly? Everything the body needs – that we know of,
anyway..."

...and that's when it falls apart.

~~~
goostavos
I don't think that's where is "falls apart" at all!

To quote Edison, "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't
work."

He's out there trying something, seeing what works. If it turns out that there
is some essential nutrient missing? Well? We found something out. And that's
pretty cool.

Personally, I think it'd be worth setting up a study around this kind of
thing. If we could cheaply produce a human chow of sorts, a lot of good could
come of it.

Personally, I'd be down with it. I'm a bit of a weekend warrior foodie, I love
making big meals on the weekends, or every once and awhile during the week.
However, for the most part, day to day eating is just kind of rote. It takes
too much time to make something decent, and so I usually end up eating a
sandwhich, or maybe fast food, or perhaps some microwavable thing. If I could
supplement 80% of my eating with a nutrient rich drink, I'd be pretty happy to
do so. Finite control over calories would be a big plus, as well.

------
nickelnerve
This diet already exists. It is called by many names: elemental diet, space
diet, astronaut diet.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1410941/pdf/gut0...](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1410941/pdf/gut00494-0076.pdf)

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elemental_diet>

Some hospitals may serve this to very ill patients. It has been the subject of
much study. It is customized based on the needs of an individual. Most can't
stand the taste. It generally works well in the short term, although I am not
aware of any long term studies that have been done.

I too am interested in this. Have they determined that animals live longer or
shorter lives on this diet? It could be rather easy to determine this:
considering the relatively short life span of earthworms or fruit flies.

Anyone who is interested in this topic: email me at: nickelnerve@gmail.com

~~~
solarbunny
I am surprised how no one here references space research. Tons of money and
talent spent on astronaut diets and space diet optimization in general.
However, regarding the evolution of space diets, soylent type foods from tubes
are a thing of a past! Today we send best organic products for people in orbit
to eat and enjoy.

------
auctiontheory
His approach assumes (among other things) that we know absolutely EVERYTHING
there is to know about nutrition.

I'm fairly confident that that's not a good assumption. And that a long-term
diet of his soylent will lead to some nasty deficiency. (Of course, if he's
willing to be the research guinea pig for the rest of us, more power to him.)

~~~
VLM
"I'm fairly confident that that's not a good assumption."

Consider the diet of livestock and pets. Not unusual for multiple generations
to eat the same product.

If livestock and pets were generally scrawny and sickly you would have a
point, but they generally seem to live much longer and healthier than in the
wild, usually by a pretty large multiple. I've often wondered if I'd be
willing to drink "ensure" for 240 years, much as serving meow mix to a cat
seems to result in a extremely long feline lifetime. It might be boring... but
240 years might make it worthwhile.

Binary thinking always strikes HN pretty hard. This is a tar baby or minefield
for startup thinkers. It doesn't have to beat the best possible diet
definable, for all people in the entire world... it merely needs to be better
than J6Packs average diet. And that's a very low metric to achieve. Sad to say
that Meow Mix probably would be better than the average american diet... And
this is before we go 3rd world and compare to the average Somalian. I think
its not very controversial that the average inner city kid would probably be
better off with soylent than a big mac or a school lunch.

That brings up the interesting point that we live in a nearly completely
centrally controlled economy WRT food production as opposed to an actual free
market and lots of people make a lot of money selling vastly inferior product,
and they're not going to be too happy about this.

~~~
ciupicri
Livestock and pets aren't as healthy as you think they are. Their lives are
better because they are protected from various factors like bad weather, lack
of water or food, but they still need a vet or medicine (by the way, chicken
used to have antibiotics in their diet). I doubt that they're in a better
shape than a wild animal living in a good area.

As an example I'll quote from an article [1] about the eggs from free-range
hens with access to pasture:

 _The "Mother Earth News" and SARE studies found that free-range eggs
contained 67 percent and 40 percent more vitamin A, respectively, than
conventional eggs (see References 2, pages 1 and 3)._

 _Free-range eggs contain more vitamin E than their conventional counterparts.
The "Mother Earth News" survey found triple the vitamin E in the eggs they
tested, and Pennsylvania State University research found double the vitamin E
in the eggs of grass-fed hens (see References 2, pages 1 and 7)._

Though I agree that beating or at least improving J6Packs' average diet
wouldn't be that hard.

[1] [http://greenliving.nationalgeographic.com/health-benefits-
fr...](http://greenliving.nationalgeographic.com/health-benefits-freerange-
hens-eggs-2624.html)

------
rayiner
This is basically what my infant does.

~~~
qompiler
Baby formula is too expensive, you would need to eat a half week worth every
day!

------
jzilla
How is this any different from other methods of meal replacement? Maybe his is
formulated better, but this is pretty much what Slim-Fast/Ensure is.

------
amalag
"Young man discovers meal replacement powders and thinks he never has to eat
again." - The Onion

------
Hairy_Sandwich
This reminds me of the guy that ate monkey chow

<http://www.angryman.ca/monkey.html>

------
Glyptodon
This kind of thing can't make it to market as an actual product fast enough.
As a lazy bachelor I constantly feel thwarted by the amount of effort required
to eat a health balanced diet without it taking up several hours a day.

------
luckystarr
It intrigues me that he said he would poop a lot less.

Most of the mass in poop is actually dead bacteria living off of the food that
you can't process (and whose waste we reabsorb at times). We know from studies
that the intestinal flora varies quickly depending on what you eat. I also
know that my mood swings depending on what I eat.

So his account of mood change (he said he felt very energetic) is very
plausible.

It looks to me that he reduced the numbers of intestinal bacteria by a
dramatic amount with his diet. I wonder what potential side effects (good or
bad) this could have.

Scientist studying the intestine here? Something to look into I guess. :)

------
Shorel
If this guy is phony, there's no harm in reading a couple articles and
laughing at it.

The problem starts if he is right. We could be reading about the food of the
future. Normal food will be a luxury reserved for a few.

~~~
irahul
> We could be reading about the food of the future. Normal food will be a
> luxury reserved for a few.

I doubt it. We have somewhat accurate idea of what's good for the body, and
what's not good for the body. That "what's not" is widely in circulation.
People haven't dropped their french fries for the salads; for sure they aren't
going to ditch them for a monotonous diet of shakes.

------
ebiester
A link to his blog: <http://robrhinehart.com/>

------
brohee
Not innovative at all... Plenty of product like that already, e.g.
[http://nestlehealthscience.us/products/Pages/RESOURCE%C2%AE-...](http://nestlehealthscience.us/products/Pages/RESOURCE%C2%AE-2-0.aspx)
usually consumed in a medical setting.

No one will take that for long unless unable to do otherwise thought. Not that
the taste is unbearable, but eating is more that nutrition, it's also
fulfilling desire... Not even speaking of the social aspect...

------
davdavid
He is "dead wrong" about fruits and vegetables. The phytonutrients in fresh
food are the building blocks of our cellular infrastructure and immune
systems. There are at least 30 detailed medical studies about how taking fruit
and vegetable concentrate increases all sorts of markers of health, from lower
stress hormones, to increased cell performance, to reduced damage to DNA, to
less days of missed work (2 different studies: one on law students, one on
special forces soldiers). There isn't anything else that's ever been
clinically proven to reduce damage to DNA except for fruits and vegetables
(specifically JuicePlus concentrate) but the finding should generalize to
fruits and vegetables. Source: <http://corsonwellness.com> (See 30+ medical
studies, videos, etc) The most researched food supplement is just simple fruit
and vegetables juiced down and concentrated. This guy might be on to something
with macronutrients, but it's not a recipe for good health, which requires
micro-nutrients. All 10,000 different plant nutrients found in an Apple, not
just one like Vitamin C.

Maybe if you add the two together, that would be a balanced diet.

------
5partan
He is lately experimenting with nootropics? Choline, which is the de facto
number number one nootropic, is an essential nutritient, and essential for
your brain to function. this could explain his train of thoughts :) Also he
mentions soylent from a book made from lentins and soy which contain lectins.
soy contains also pythoestrogen, not good for your prostate. i'm pretty sure
his omega6 amount is also too high, and there is some oxidation as he uses
olive oil. the ratio of the nutrients is wrong as its based on the FDA, and is
different for different ethnic groups. its very naive of him to think that his
soylent is toxic free, as his ingredients are highly processed nutritients,
adding new toxins to this mix. No details about monitoring his blood, so i
supose he only checked the bare minimum, also not relevant after such a short
time. also i think some nutritient are not ment to be consumed together
because they bind to each other and create new chemical compounds, which are
probably toxic. I think he should read a few more books.

~~~
5partan
Oh yes i almost forgot, DEPENDENCY! Imagine a world with no seeds (google
terminator seeds), and genetically modified and patented animals which don't
breed. At best, everybody should cultivate and farm his own food. If you don't
have the time to prepare a meal, you don't have time to live. I hope there is
strong demand in real and natural food as long as i live.

------
hakaaaaak
From what I've read, it is better to get calcium from milk, vegetables like
Spinach, Kale, Okra, Collards, or Soy or White beans, or some fish rather
CaCO3. The Mayo clinic suggests taking CaCO3 with food, because stomach acid
helps with the absorption: <http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/calcium-
supplements/AN01428> Otherwise, Calcium Citrate may be a better choice.

The thing that worries me most about this diet is that, while in some ways it
may be of great benefit in energy, etc., some of the side effects may not be
seen for months, years, or perhaps a few decades.

It is an interesting experiment, but I think it would be a good idea if it
were controlled and monitored by a doctor.

Also he said, "This is one case and it's only been a month". I ate almonds,
peanuts, cheese, meat, and veggies for a few months, lost 15 lbs. But, since
I've gained it all back and then some. One month at a new diet something
hardly makes one an expert.

------
contingencies
_There's no evidence organic food is healthier than conventional food_

Isn't it well known that chemical fertilizers, pesticides, preservatives,
heavy metals and other nasties do affect foods supplies through the
conventional food chain? I think people who enjoy naturally grown food do so
with the knowledge that they are avoiding all of this. Sure, it's not going to
make a great difference over a few meals, but if you spend your life eating
well rounded meals grown naturally your body is certainly going to benefit.

Secondly, I am currently under the impression that evidence of bioavailability
for many supplements is pathetic to zero.

Finally, the damage that extracting, packing, shipping, storing, ordering and
measuring these artificial food replacements causes to the environment (ie.
the real ecosystems they are ultimately sourced from) is vastly greater than
that of simply plucking a fresh tomato from the vine.

------
antman
Well he will soon find out that these things interact and you can't take them
all together. Example: Calcium against iron
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1600930/> It will take him 2.5 months.
At least that's how much it took me to find out.

------
mamoswined
I'm kind of the opposite of this guy, in that I'm probably a "foodie", I'm a
member of slow food, etc. But I have thought about something like this. The
thing is that I love food and eating, but I don't get a lot of enjoyment from
meals that I eat alone at home, which are usually breakfast and lunch. I would
love to just not think about them at all and that would also free up
additional money for better meals and drinks with friends and dates.

I don't think the liquid approach he is going for a good one though from a
mechanical anatomical view. Bulk provides important functions, especially in
the colon. Not having it in the diet could mean if he did end up with a
girlfriend, that first date could be spent in the bathroom.

I think my approach would be more along the lines of a porridge with some
supplements added in.

------
kyllo
The merit of this experiment depends highly on whether he's actually captured
all his nutritive and caloric needs within his recipe. There are a lot of
vitamins and minerals that we need, but that aren't found in that many things.
We get them through diversity of diet. Vitamin B12 is a good example--it's
found in meat and some types of seaweed and not much else, so vegetarians and
vegans are usually deficient in it without supplementation.

Whenever you restrict your diet consistently over time like that, you run the
risk of deficiency. So if you take it to the extreme of eating the exact same
thing for every meal, you had better make sure that that one meal really does
contain everything your body needs, or else you are going to develop a
deficiency very quickly.

------
pippy
Everyone in this thread is looking at this the wrong way. I'm surprised HN is
reacting in such a negative way.

If his diet is unbalanced, it's an issue with the official daily requirements
being wrong.

If he's planing on marketing his innovative product, it's a failure of
marketing.

Either way he's not very liable of failure.

------
aethertap
If this is real, I hope he keeps a very detailed log of his experiences. Since
I doubt very much that we know everything about human nutrition, this could be
a valuable data source for finding more gaps in our knowledge.

It would also be interesting to see the effect of this on gut microbes, which
are seem to be increasing in importance in the formula of overall health
[1,2]. I wish him the best of luck, but it's not something I'll be doing.

[1]
[http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ismej...](http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ismej2012153a.html)

[2]
[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120815174902.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120815174902.htm)

------
ddoolin
This idea would probably be better when given to children who are just getting
over formula or breastmilk, albeit with proper modifications are they grow.
Babies do just fine on a liquid diet with breastmilk essentially just
containing the necessary nutrients. Assuming they kept this liquid-nutrition
diet (adjustingly accordingly), it sounds more viable.

However, a grown man whose body is used to solid foods probably won't be able
to adapt so easily, similar to what happens to long-time vegetarians who go
back to eating meat again.

I'm a little confused as to why people are so quick to turn this down. Even if
nutrition interaction is complex, there's probably still a solution to make
this work (different drinks at different times, etc).

~~~
jtheory
Speaking of breastmilk -- I don't know about this guy's particular formula,
but I can chip in that my daughter was solely breastfed for 9 months or so,
and it was pretty clearly _extremely_ efficiently processed.

I wasn't eager for her to start eating solid foods, actually, because I did
most of the diaper changes, and while she was still on a breastmilk-only diet
(and once her digestive system was developed enough, after 6 months or so),
she wasn't constipated, but would simply only poop once or twice a week (and
it wasn't even unpleasant-smelling).

I haven't researched the subject, but anecdotally other parents who nursed
their children for more than a few months have similar accounts.

My concerns about a similar diet for adults, though, is that it's a serious
tangent from the eating habits humans have evolved with.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that people switching to a liquid-only diet
like this saw a jump in colon cancer, or something like that.

------
scotty79
I was wondering why while there is "dog food" there's no "people food". Only
reason I came up with that if they got anything wrong and person who would eat
only "people food" had anything wrong with his health he would sue the company
for millions.

------
axelf
I don't understand why everyone on this thread is making it seem like this
impossible. I feed my dog the same food and portion every single day. He is
lean, muscular, and full of energy all day. We're both mammals, how different
could it be?

------
shanev
The solving world hunger aspect of this post is laughable. This highly
processed shake can be made from local agriculture. Great! Why not just _eat
the local agriculture itself_? You wouldn't have to build the infrastructure
to process real food down into a powder. You also benefit from all the
nutrients we haven't discovered yet. We're just at the tip of the iceberg in
terms of what we know about nutrition. So far we know a lot about nutrients in
isolation, not as whole foods. Maybe that's why this seems like a good idea to
this guy. I'm glad he's doing at least two real meals a week. That should keep
him alive.

------
lost_name
Previous discussion on the creator's blog:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5215223>

Generally accepted ad a hoax or ruse of some kind.

My opinion: Food is good. I don't want to replace food.

~~~
abstractbill
I don't think it's a hoax - he's sending me a batch and I can't wait to try
it. I enjoy food _occasionally_ , but most of the time it's just a giant pain
in the ass.

~~~
lost_name
If I had to hazard a guess at why the gut reaction is to call it a joke, it
would be that (1) meal replacement shakes have been around for at least two
decades and (2) it's not a weight loss suggestion (although he mentions it may
be useful for that).

------
rosser
This seems like an appropriate place to quote Knuth.

"Premature optimization is the root of all evil."

~~~
tantalor
The field of food preparation has been around for tens if not hundreds of
millennia. We've been trying to optimize it for a long time.

See also: Invention of Fire.

~~~
rosser
This optimization is premature in that he's trying to optimize for time and
effort when we haven't yet nailed — in terms of _fully understanding_ — the
whole "optimal nutrition" thing.

Optimizing for performance before you have a fully working implementation is
exactly what Knuth was decrying.

~~~
jessaustin
_This optimization is premature in that he's trying to optimize for time and
effort when we haven't yet nailed — in terms of fully understanding — the
whole "optimal nutrition" thing._

Yet every single chef in every single restaurant and every single cook in
every single home also optimizes for performance, although not quite as
exclusively as Soylent Dude. I think you haven't articulated your actual
complaint here.

~~~
DanBC
> Yet every single chef in every single restaurant and every single cook in
> every single home also optimizes for performance,

No they don't - they often optimise for taste. Some people accidentally get
adequate nutrition because they eat so much food, and some of that food is
fortified with micronutrients.

~~~
jessaustin
_optimise for taste_

...and texture, and price, and familiarity, and ethical sourcing, and
religious approval, and cetera, and cetera. Maybe you don't care about halal
or free-range, but some people do.

Like I said, Soylent Dude is more exclusive in his optimization, but I still
contradict the proposition that, "This optimization is premature..." How could
it be premature when every human food preparer has been doing it since the
invention of fire?

~~~
rosser
Because his optimization is _at the expense of all other considerations_. He
even admits to being pleasantly surprised that his glop _tastes good_. That
means he'd have consumed it even if it didn't — taste is secondary to
convenience.

He's taking what we currently _believe_ to be true about the human body's
nutritional requirements, dumping that into a blender all chemistry-set-style
(it even has _oligosaccharides_!), and calling it good, because he thinks
eating like a human takes too much time and effort.

Maybe it will work out for him. I'm certainly interested to see what happens.
But if what happens turns out to be some previously unknown (because everyone
else has been busy eating at least some _actual food_ ) analogue of scurvy or
something, I'm not going to be the least bit surprised. I'll probably even
have nontrivial schadenfreude.

Simply, _we do not know enough_ about nutrition at this point to be making
this kind of optimization. It's therefore _premature_.

(Edited)

~~~
tantalor
Hypothesis: "soylent" contains everything your body needs.

If consumption of "soylent" reveals some nutritional deficiency, then you
_should_ be surprised, because that means our hypothesis is incorrect! Your
expectation should confirm the hypothesis, not negate it.

------
janezhu
Why are people are having such a visceral reaction to this idea? Finding
alternatives to solid, "fresh" food is an issue we will have address in the
near future, if not right now. With forecasts about population growth rapidly
rising (We said it would reach 10 billion by 2100. It only took 13 years to
jump from 6-7 billion.)

This could be implemented not only for hunger in impoverished nations, but for
world overpopulation and depletion of resources including livestock and
agriculture.

People are commenting this guy is crazy. But in the next few decades I'd
rather there was 100 crazy guys trying this for every McDonald's junkie.

~~~
jessaustin
You're right, but sadly this innovation, if it works, has the potential to
make the problem _worse_. Human population, like any population of any
organism, will grow logistically approaching some limiting factor. If we don't
like a world in which 10B people are limited by agricultural capacity, we'd
like a world in which 100B people are limited by something else even less.

The solution is to find cultural limits lower than our agricultural limits.
It's possible that we've already done this, and we won't know it until all of
Africa undergoes the demographic transition. (Please note: by cultural limits
I mean things like changing family norms rather than forced sterilization,
resource-motivated warfare, and other such monstrous practices.)

------
josephjrobison
I think this will work just fine temporarily, and should be looked into for
widespread distribution during emergency situations like famines. But doctors
first recommended the amazing powdered baby formula in the 50's and 60's and
then switched their recommendations back to mothers' milk for most of the
population in the 90s. Of course we should continue to experiment and
understand nutrition, and powders, potions, and pills can supplement a diet,
but I don't think it's anywhere near or ever will be a complete substitute for
real food. Real food being healthy, whole foods.

------
therandomguy
I don't know how effective his particular recipe is, but this is a pretty
important concept (and not a new one). He nails it when he says that eating is
a social activity like going to the movies, but you might not want to do it 3
times a day. People are resisting it now because it doesn't sound "natural"
but it will definitely be the new normal.

If we do end up developing a meal substitute it could also provide a solution
to world hunger. I remember reading about a gel that is distributed to Africa
in cans which was helping the food problem there (can't find it via Google
now).

------
l0c0b0x
A few months ago, I had the realization that on most days I only ate because I
HAD TO. I find it extremely frustrating having to spend lots of time
_thinking_ about what to eat e.v.e.r.y.d.a.y.

On average, I might like only 20-40% of what I eat. Mainly because good/tasty
food is expensive, hard to find, and/or prone to change in taste due to
various elements. I really believe if there was balanced nutritious drink out
there that gives me what my body needs, tastes ok, and costs relatively cheap,
I would be one happy customer.

I'm keeping my eye on news like these from now on.

------
baak
>> " I read a textbook on physiological chemistry"

>> "I'd been reading a lot of books on biology"

Well award this man a degree already. Am I the only one who doesn't trust
these kinds of qualifications? A software engineer who is a hobbyist bio-
chemist is telling me about a system that "costs 150 a month, cures skin
diseases in 9 days, will get you in the best shape of your life, and tastes
great." (per his blog)

Really? I mean... really, really? If it sounds too good to be true, it
probably is. And in this case, it's probably very dangerous as well.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Maybe not as dangerous as a stead diet of McD's. See it in persepective. He's
at least trying, not just stuffing his mouthhole with salt-sugar-fat crap.

~~~
withad
A steady diet of McDonald's (or any equivalent fast food) isn't nearly as
inherently dangerous as things like "Super Size Me" would have you believe.
Morgan Spurlock was eating 5000 calories of McDonald's a day, with most of it
coming from the milkshakes, not the solid food. If you force-feed yourself
5000 calories of anything every day for a month, you're going to have health
problems.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Right. Human physiology is incredibly resilient. Populations around the world
have subsisted on the most amazing limited diets with fair success.

Fast food won't kill you. At least not right away. This stuff won't kill you.
At least not right away. The alarmists are as wrong as the op.

------
Erwin
Looks like Scott Adam's Dilberito returns: «With the mantra “We Make it Easy
to Eat,” Scott Adams Food, Inc. condenses the gastronomy, convenience, and
economy (the would-be price in 2008, adjusted to inflation, is $3.31) into one
object, eliminating the need for contemplation and decision.»
<http://dankbuilders.blogspot.dk/2008/03/dilberito.html>

Like Dilbert, the animated series (second season wasn't actually that bad),
Dilberito has not caught on.

------
christkv
This guy just reminds me of the book by Claude Lévi-Strauss called the culture
code. The US (and northern european) code for food is fuel, while in southern
Europe it's pleasure. The fact that he looks at drinking soylent as a way to
save hundreds of dollars a month in food and energy probably means he views
food as a fuel and an inconvenience instead of pleasurable highlight of the
day.

I find it amusing but not for me. I for one consider food pleasure and even
bigger pleasure when eaten with friends and family.

------
elisehein
Discussions about how to save time on eating and cooking -- essentially the
ultimate life hacking -- always make me think about early man and his
lifestyle that must have consisted mostly of hunting trips that may well have
taken up days at a time, and then returning home with the prey and enjoying
every bit of the reward. I wonder if they ever contemplated on how they could
minimise all this time they spent on keeping themselves alive to make room for
.. ehm, what else was there to do anyway?

------
ufmace
What makes me a bit skeptical about this is that this guy is apparently 24 and
was in generally good health before he did all of this. I think most of us
have experienced that when you're that young, you can eat pretty much whatever
you want without much adverse consequences. There's plenty of college students
only a little younger in basically good health whose diet is mostly alcohol
and fast food. What happens when you feed this stuff to an overweight 45-year
old?

------
ronaldx
Reading this guy's blog reminded me very much of personal experiences of
people suffering a significantly damaging eating disorder (ED) such as
anorexia -

ED sufferers also report euphoria, and a keen focus on key metrics such as
weight loss and exercise allows them to ignore negative health effects.

I would suggest this guy's experience is textbook typical of very low calorie
diets (VLCD). That doesn't mean it will be healthy in the long-term -
according to wikipedia, he might expect gallstones.

------
locopati
Let's see how well he's doing after a year of living off the stuff. There's
probably more complexity to food than breaking it up into vitamins, minerals,
and calories.

~~~
VLM
"There's probably more complexity to food than breaking it up into vitamins,
minerals, and calories."

A picture perfect display of modern belief in vitalism theory.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism>

A fairly stereotypical way to being an organic chemistry class is to start out
with traditional vitalism and pivot into the historical first complete
synthesis of urea, of all things...

~~~
locopati
I wasn't referring to vitalism so much as our ability to capture all of the
components of food (given that we don't fully understand the effects of micro-
levels of nutrients in our body) and determine exactly what we need (given
that people vary and not everyone needs the same things in the same
proportions).

So, instead of saying the complexity of food, I should have said the
complexity of the entire system.

There's a certain arrogance within scientific/rational thinking that
everything can be broken up in to parts and understood that way. Life is more
complex than that.

------
klinquist
I wonder how it tastes with rum?

------
GhotiFish
One question I have is where he acquires these materials, if not through some
form of agriculture.

I mean, harvesting wheat isn't exactly what I would call "inefficient"

------
doctorstupid
> _I started wondering why something as simple and important as food was still
> so inefficient_

It's inefficient _because_ it's important. The production and consumption of
food is one of the most ritualized aspects of humanity, and most cultures
define themselves in no small part by their culinary traditions.

To humans, food is far, far more than simply the output of some nutritional
optimization technique.

------
stef25
LIfe being reduced to 1's and 0's, this is the worst thing I've read in a long
time. Eating fresh tasty food is one of the joys of life, why on earth would
you want to cut that out of your life. What's next, a way of reproducing
without having to have sex? What's better than a home made burger, English
breakfast, pasta with sauce from fresh tomatoes and basil, seafood fried rice?

------
AaronBBrown
If it were possible to remain healthy long term, I'd totally sign up for a
pill or drink that took a minute or two to consume and contained everything
that we need to survive. I might not do it every day because there are some
foods that I really like, but generally I don't enjoy eating and find it
irritating that I have to spend so much of my life doing it.

------
JakeSc
Especially striking and inspiring was how he thinks of food as an "old
technology":

> I don't miss the rotary telephone and I don't miss food.

------
manglav
I've always wanted to do this, and actually have talked to some GI's making
this happen. They always said you can do it for a couple of months, but the
stomach is designed to handle solid food. I definitely plan to become a beta
tester for him though. For a college student, this is a dream.

------
crapshoot101
I think this is one of those "Whatever floats your boat" kind of things. For
me, as with others, eating is something I enjoy, not a chore, and I look
forward to food. Also, I'm not sure how one's social interactions work in this
world, especially since so much that is tied around food.

~~~
xauronx
I look forward to food, but not paying $8 a day to eat lunch from one of two
crappy places I can easily get to from work. Nor the weight gain that comes
from them. Obviously I could pack a lunch, but I hate that shit. If this could
actually sustain me I would consider it for breakfast/lunch with a real
dinner. Clearly I could probably get away with an off the shelf replacement
for those meals though...

~~~
crapshoot101
Eh, see, I don't mind that, and I actually enjoy cooking and experimenting in
my spare time. Its not something that I want to replace, you know?

------
InTheDark
This guy is getting a boat load of attention for doing something mildly
interesting at best. He's using whey protein, olive oil, and some kind of
starch. That's food. Nothing more, nothing less. You can't just suck down CHON
and call it good, or all we'd have to do is breathe.

------
fusiongyro
> Mental performance is harder to quantify, but I feel much sharper.

A friend of mine frequently goes on crash diets and fasts and always reports
that he feels sharper in the beginning. I'd guess (unscientifically) this is
actually evidence that he is missing a few important nutrients.

------
iamdev
One thing experiments like this often seem to forget is that our bodies have
evolved to eat. Even something as simple as your stomach physically expanding
to hold large quantities of less nutrient-dense whole foods has been shown to
have an effect on the body and brain.

------
rsaarelm
Aren't a lot of people already doing exactly this because they have a disease
or disability that makes them unable to chew and swallow food? Roger Ebert
hasn't been able to eat solid food in years and is still kicking, so what's in
the stuff that's keeping him alive?

------
dhughes
Interesting an I've seen it discussed a lot in sci-fi and on reddit too.

But I wonder if his throat will start to constrict from lack of bulk going
down it, he probably needs some bulk or at least the option of liquid and
solid.

Plus his teeth and gums will probably suffer from lack of stimulation.

------
znmeb
I think the technical term for what Rob Rhinehart has is "eating disorder". He
will get sick eventually, as all people who do stuff like this do, and if he's
_lucky_ , the damage he is doing to his health will be reversible because he's
young.

------
jckt
"No groceries, dishes, deciding what to eat, no endless conversations weighing
the relative merits of gluten-free, keto, paleo or vegan."

Is this a predominantly American thing? I've never even heard of these things
used to describe food before I came to the USA.

------
vacri
_Water bills are lower._

Wow, how much is he spending on water for this to be a tangible benefit?

------
palidanx
I think what makes me the most sad is that this method removes the joy and
cultural bonds when one cooks and breaks bread with others.

Eating a meal and talking about life with others are things I consdier the
most precious of them all.

------
jpwagner
Eating is not only for sustenance.

Here's a book recommendation: [http://www.amazon.com/Never-Eat-Alone-
Relationship-ebook/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Never-Eat-Alone-Relationship-
ebook/dp/B000FCJZ4K/)

------
andybak
What bizarre, emotionally-stunted, inner life must one possess to want to
eradicate one of life's most reliable pleasures.

I as deep a distrust of people that don't love food as I do of people that
don't love music.

------
smiddereens
Based on his recipe I don't see how this is being perceived as novel or
revolutionary. Surely many HNers have endeavored to make "bachelor chow" (or
more appropriately slurry) in the past.

------
tn13
Doesn't make sense to me at all. Yes, it is really good thing to be really
busy with something in life. But are you really that busy that you dont have
time to enjoy a good healthy meal? What abut sex ? What about girlfriend or
wife ? Hey and is sleeping is also waste of time ?

Well, there are always pathological cases like this particular man in question
but I dont think anyone else should even try this sort of stuff.

Secondly, our body has evolved not just to digest nutrients but also normal
food which may contain many other essential things science is not yet fully
aware of. So this sort of artificial diet is risky and it might cut your life
by few years. Is it worth it ?

~~~
randomchars
You don't need sex to stay alive. As for sleeping there are attempts to hack
that too. [0] Not everyone thinks that spending 30 minutes or more to prepare
a meal is worth their time so they time to minimize it: from take-outs to
microwave food. As many already said in this thread, this would be a step-up
for many.

You can't blame him for trying. That's more than most of us are doing.

There are also many people who would try this, including me. We don't know
what we don't know and this might be a way to find out. Is cutting your life
by a few years worth prolonging the lifes of billions of others?

[0]: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep>

~~~
tn13
You are missing my point. My problem with this approach is that he thinks that
food is only for "staying alive". Like many others here, even I love my work
and I too constantly figure out ways to make myself lot more productive.

But giving up a regular meal for a formula sounds like over optimization for
me.

------
rsl7
He'll be fine as long as he drinks that in addition to eating steamed kale and
sweet potatoes, broccoli, brown rice and a variety of beans and sprouts.

------
shell0x
A bit of topic, but is it really required to have _that_ much tracking scripts
on your site?

Ghostery is showing up 14 blocked trackers, which is a way too much I think.

------
worldimperator
Here's a good food idea:

Don't eat sugar, any fruits which don't have a Greek or Hebrew name or any
liquid which is less than 1,000 years old. (Taleb) ;-)

------
caycep
"I was a little worried it was going to kill me, but decided it was for
science and quickly downed the whole thing." sounds familiar ;)

------
drewsears
If I were still single, I would be all over this.

------
asadi
Here's the story in his own words: <http://robrhinehart.com/?p=298>

------
gcatalfamo
Let's say he is right. Maybe, right? Am I the only one who likes to eat?
Eating actually gives me a break from other things.

------
ebbv
> I started wondering why something as simple and important as food was still
> so inefficient, __given how streamlined and optimised other modern things
> are. __

Things must be really different in Atlanta....

EDIT:

Downvotes? Really? On a site presumably full of hackers, you are gonna tell me
"modern things" are really streamlined and efficient? Software for the most
part isn't. Cars aren't. Houses, apartments, restaurants, workplaces, none of
it is. Come on. It's a pretty absurd statement.

------
ctdonath
A buried quote worth repeating on Pi Day: * this day I ran 3.14 miles non-
stop. This is an irrational improvement _

------
arbuge
When you get tired of food, wine, women/men/{other object of attraction},
song, and sleep, you are tired of life.

------
taproot
> Revolutionizes eating

> Doesn't let anyone know ingredients

Besides the disturbing nature of this guy, I always like the idea of the
matrix glop food.

Someone should really open source working on this, I understand it is a hard
thing to get right but enough people working on this and using strictly whole
foods as base ingredients would probably lessen any negative outcomes.

And really, it can't be much worse than my nightly chow down on fast food.

------
MichaelReed
I would love to see how he does lifting some weight on this diet vs. just
sitting in front of a computer.

~~~
Syssiphus
According to his blog he is running on a regular basis.

------
ctdonath
As I blog about cheap meals, I'm wondering what the per-meal price is for this
concoction. Any ideas?

------
d0c5
I'm on this. I'm not even going to read any comments pertaining. All my life I
prayed for this day.

------
Uncompetative
Please don't use this as an excuse to let the world's population hit eleven
digits.

Stop fucking, for fuck's sake!

------
nickik
Mhh I could try this with Guinness, on second thougth ... its still a good
idea.

------
mtitus16
This is disgusting, and this man-boy is obviously mentally unstable.

------
gosukiwi
As a hardcore gamer I'm interested, but... it would be too bad x_x

------
kumarski
Rob is also a YC alum. He has dropped noticeable weight.

------
Eva_Peron
They will take the soylent from his cold, dead hands! :-)

------
jalayr
He's going to poop liquid for the rest of his life.

------
shurcooL
I would be _so_ interested in something like this.

------
intopieces
This man never wants to take a solid shit again.

~~~
drdaeman
I'm not a doctor, but I suspect his digestive system won't be happy in a long
term.

~~~
drdaeman
Wonder why the downvotes. Did I wrote something irrelevant to discussion or
obviously factually incorrect?

------
mesozoic
Wasn't this shown to be a hoax a while back?

------
crististm
Someone should tell him there is a reason babies and cubs don't drink milk
when they grow up.

He probably discovered milk, but it seems to me that milk tastes better.

------
papsosouid
I love how all the arm chair biochemists here jump on this as being so
dangerous because in theory there could be something he needs and isn't
getting. Yet most of them are eating a diet that is deficient in things we
_know_ you need. This guy's gross sludge is a hell of a lot healthier than
what most people are eating, go bitch at them instead.

~~~
MSM
I agree with you, but I think the main sentiment is that after just 6 weeks
you can't come to any conclusions.

For example smoking is probably one of the worst things you can do for your
health long term. I can smoke two packs a day and have absolutely no issues
after only six weeks. Eating crap food is bad for you, and it might kill you
after _40 or 50 years_.

Looking at some of the issues he has having (heart racing) due to lack of
iron. What if the symptoms weren't as obvious? He'd have never looked to see
why he was experiencing them. It's really hard to get excited about something
when he's only been doing it for such a short time and it's fairly obvious he
doesn't really know what he's doing.

------
notdrunkatall
No matter what you think of this guy or his product, you have to give him
props for being his own guinea pig.

I, for one, hope that he proves everyone wrong, and a year from now, I'm
mixing up my own Soylent, because though I do love a good meal, I'm a busy
person, and I often find myself eating simply to sate hunger. If I could
replace that footlong sub with a glass of soylent, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

------
nsxwolf
Linkbait. Indeed, he eats. It's just really awful food.

I am glad I still have the freedom to eat what I choose. I hope that never
changes.

