
A Tipless Restaurant is a Well-Run Restaurant? - pyduan
http://priceonomics.com/a-tipless-restaurant-is-a-well-run-restaurant/
======
rm999
This is an old article - Jay Porter's tipless restaurant, The Linkery, has
since failed. This is my comment from the last time the Linkery came up on
hackenews
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6127536](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6127536)):

>Back when I lived in San Diego I took my parents to the Linkery. The service
was so bad it actually reversed my opinions against tipping. The servers
clearly didn't care much about making us happy, messing up almost every aspect
of the order. They put meat in my food - I'm vegetarian. My father got his
food 20 minutes after my mother and I did. The waiter forgot one of my drinks.
We called over the manager who offered us a free dessert to make up for it.
Guess what? The dessert was on the bill. I'm always happy to tip 20+% for good
service, but being forced (yes, we asked) to pay the service charge added
insult to injury. This is just one data point, but the Linkery was infamous
around San Diego for having much worse service than other places in a similar
price range. I'm convinced their experiment with tipping was correlated with
this.

~~~
kennywinker
Sorry you had a bad time, but sample size of 1 is not compelling. "The plural
of anecdote is anecdotes, not data."

The issue could easily be bad management, bad hiring, etc etc etc.

~~~
skybrian
Apparently that's a misquote and it was originally "The plural of anecdote is
data." [1]

Of course more data is better.

[1] [http://blog.revolutionanalytics.com/2011/04/the-plural-of-
an...](http://blog.revolutionanalytics.com/2011/04/the-plural-of-anecdote-is-
data-after-all.html)

~~~
vacri
The context is different though - the professor is stating that an anecdote is
a data point, and plural data points can be referred to as data. Two stories
are two datums, pluralised to data.

The "not data" version is saying that anecdotes are in such small numbers and
uncontrolled circumstances, that even though they are data points in and of
themselves, they're not rigorous enough to draw wider conclusions from. It's a
different context.

------
maaaats
> The other has refused to accept them, instead charging a fixed percentage
> service fee.

Why not just show the real price in the menu? I feel offended when I've gotten
shitty service and have to pay a "service fee". I also hate when my tip is
what's paying the wages. Just set the price higher to cover the wages!

~~~
throw_away
There was a planet money podcast recently which discussed the effects of
including a tax in the price or adding it at the register. Even though the net
cost was exactly the same, including the tax in the sticker price resulted in
8% less consumption. While, as consumers, we'd probably prefer products to
include the all-up cost in the price tag, from the seller's perspective, it's
still in their interest to add it at the register.

~~~
neverminder
Where is this being practiced? I've been to pretty much every country in
Europe in the last 20 years and in a conventional shop the tax (VAT) is always
included in the price.

~~~
maaaats
It's common in USA, because there are different sales taxes in different
states. So advertised products are advertised without tax included in the
price.

~~~
FancyCashews
It goes further than that; a county or even a town can have a separate sales
tax. You can have 9% in one county, 10% in a city inside the county, or 8% the
next county over.

~~~
kelseyfrancis
And even beyond that, some governments levy different taxes on different items
(e.g., lower tax on groceries), while other nearby governments may levy the
same tax on everything.

Further, some governments charge tax on the pre-coupon/pre-discounted price,
while others tax only the actual final price.

Further still, some entities like public schools are exempt from paying sales
taxes in many states/municipalities. In this case, the price sign would have
to show both a pre-tax and tax-included price on it, which may be the best
solution anyway.

Regardless, these differences are probably easiest to account for at the point
of sale.

~~~
neona
A tangential, but this complexity is one reason I think that sales tax should
largely be abolished in favor of rolling it into income taxes. The only
context it makes much sense in is taxing various luxuries. Beyond that, it's
confusing, adds administrative overhead, and discriminates towards those with
lower incomes.

------
mwfunk
Mildly tangential, but I'm always surprised when people express so much anger
about being expected to tip in restaurants (in America, at least). Not people
who come from other places where the conventions are different, but people who
have lived here their whole lives.

I'm not surprised (and empathize with) people who are reacting to the
inefficiency of The System ("why don't restaurants just charge more and pay
their employees reasonable wages?"). This is correct, but as others have
pointed out, in the US at least we seem to be stuck at a suboptimal local
maximum in this area. It would be impractical (and maybe catastrophic) for any
one restaurant to suddenly adopt this policy, so that's not going to happen
anytime soon.

Rather, I'm always amazed at the portion of people who have a visceral
reaction to tipping due to what appears to be just plain lack of empathy.
These aren't the people who are saying, "why doesn't the restaurant just pay
better?". That totally makes sense. These aren't the people who tip less (or
not at all) when they've had a really bad experience with the server. That
makes sense too.

Specifically, I'm talking about the people who deep down inside just always
have a reflexively negative reaction to directly giving their money to the
person who just served them. These are the people who feel happy about
themselves when they say things like, "my tips start at 0% and go up from
there", or who seem to put way, way, way too much mental energy into grading
the level of service that they've received and coming up with a number that
reflects that level of service each and every time they go to a restaurant. If
anyone posting is that kind of person, please just shut up and start being a
better person already. I encounter these people all the time in SV. These
aren't poor people for whom the tip is ever a meaningful amount of cash. These
are people making many times the annual income of their servers, getting
continually worked up over a few dollars, supposedly because of "the principle
of the thing". These are always people who have never worked in a restaurant,
and are almost always people who never even had a job until after they got out
of college. If anyone posting here is posting for this reason, please just get
over it and find more constructive things to get worked up over. Ideally
something that doesn't directly impact the income of people making way the
hell less money than they do.

~~~
mpyne
What surprises me of the visceral reaction of those who say "why doesn't the
restaurant just pay better?" is that by that logic you'd still be paying
essentially _the same price_. It wouldn't actually be cheaper if you were
charged for food + good service separately, so why are you getting so inflamed
about it?

~~~
RodericDay
I'm the kind of person who "reacts to the inefficiency of The System"[0], but
I also have a bone to pick with a lot of the worthless, inauthentic symbolic
"rituals" that most people perform unquestioningly. it's kind of like when
people are surprised that a standard way of saying "hi" in North America is
"how are you?" even though the person doesn't actually wanna hear it and will
be weirded out if you reply honestly.

with tipping, it is simultaneously vaguely some "meritocratic" dimension to
the waiter's job, but then it's also basically just a tax, but then it's also
a social ritual in which people can boast or be shamed for their ignorance or
largesse. I don't like it at all.

All things the same, when some quirk is so inconsequential that people ask why
you're up in arms about it, I side with removing the quirk rather than keeping
it.

[0] I'd also say this is putting it mildly, almost like a euphemism. It is a
way of exploitation that happens to benefit a visible minority of waiters so
that the overall impression for those not in the know is one of neutrality. It
is definitely a pro-employer law, that dukes the clients against the
employees.

~~~
mpyne
> All things the same, when some quirk is so inconsequential that people ask
> why you're up in arms about it, I side with removing the quirk rather than
> keeping it.

I used to think so, but now I'm not so sure that social "rituals" are really
inherently something to be worn down just because many of us find them hard to
navigate.

Social rituals are a side effect of existing in a society with other people
and so they never really go away, they just change into other things. As such
it's not really a good idea to solve the problem of such rituals by trying to
eradicate them, when what we really should be doing is getting better at
living in a world with social rituals that pop up and go away. Plasticity
should be the goal, and while streamlining rituals can certainly work with
that goal, streamlining should not be the goal itself.

------
dm2
I hate the idea of implied mandatory tipping.

Pay your staff sufficient wages please.

Whatever laws allow the below minimum wage loophole should be eliminated or
overwritten, or whatever you do to laws to make them invalid.

~~~
larrys
"Pay your staff sufficient wages please."

In theory means that expenses go up and restaurant then need to charge more on
the menu which will in theory result in lower sales and profit (see my other
comment).

~~~
dm2
The amount the customers pay should stay the same, unless the service is
excellent, then a tip would be given to the wait-saff.

Unfortunately the mindset of required tipping won't go away anytime soon.

It's not going to happen until the laws that allow below minimum wage pay are
abolished, then wait a few years for people to get into the habit of tipping
primarily for quality of service.

If there aren't enough customers that are willing to pay the "higher" cost
then there doesn't need to be that many upscale restaurants. Sometimes I'd
prefer to save a few dollars and walk to the kitchen window and get my own
food.

If the profit margin is that low for restaurants then they either need to go
out of business or reduce expenses, having hidden fees (tips) isn't the
answer.

~~~
larrys
"having hidden fees (tips) isn't the answer."

Tips are not hidden fees. In fact if the tip isn't included as part of the
charge it isn't even legally required to be paid either.

"The amount the customers pay would stay the same."

If a businesses expenses go up then their profit goes down. So they either
have to accept less profit or they need to raise prices. Please explain
another scenario. I'm not talking about some outlier where something else out
of the ordinary happened for some other non duplicatable reason. Or how a
particular business may charge less than another because they make it up on
volume. (There are many particulars to why a business might operate at a
different cost structure (location, suppliers as only two examples).

"Sometimes I'd prefer to save a few dollars and walk to the kitchen window and
get my own food."

Ok I see where you are going with this. Have you ever seen what others prefer
to do and how actual restaurants operate? It seems that most people don't
prefer to "walk to the kitchen window and get their own food".

------
adamzerner
I think that this is missing the biggest critique of all - it doesn't make
sense to allocate 15-20% of the payment to something that is only like 1% of
the value you're receiving.

The real value in going out to eat, in roughly decreasing order of importance:

\- The quality of the actual food and drinks that you consume.

\- The convenience of not having to spend the time and effort to shop, cook,
and clean.

\- The atmosphere and joy of "going out" (with your friends).

\- The fact that someone takes your order and brings your food to you.

There's no way that the fact that someone takes your order and brings your
food to you consists of 1/5th of the value of your experience. An efficient
market should then adjust to this by offering the option of not tipping,
having all the consumers go to that restaurant because it's a better value,
and then the other restaurants would have to adjust.

Unfortunately, this doesn't happen, probably for a variety of reasons.

1) People don't have enough information when choosing where to eat.

2) There are biases where people don't really consider the cost of tipping
when they consider the cost of going out to eat.

3) People have gotten used to it, and "don't mind" tipping.

~~~
robotresearcher
I disagree. Good service is a pleasure to receive, and adds a lot to the value
of the experience.

When your water glass never gets quite empty, and the flat bread never quite
runs out, and you're not sure how that happened because your conversation was
not interrupted, and your food arrives hot and when you look around to get the
bill and it arrives just like that. When service is really good the restaurant
feels like magic. That's worth a lot.

------
gkop
The premise of the article may be valid, but the author's top source is not
sound. The piece quotes Jay Porter extensively and links to his blog post. Jay
Porter is a failed restaurateur whose restaurants have all shut down [0] [1],
not a source to be trusted on the subject of well-run restaurants.

[0] [http://www.yelp.com/biz/el-take-it-easy-san-
diego](http://www.yelp.com/biz/el-take-it-easy-san-diego) [1]
[http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-linkery-san-diego](http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-
linkery-san-diego)

~~~
kennywinker
The high failure rate in the restaurant industry means these businesses could
have failed for entirely stochastic reasons unrelated to Jay Porter. If 80 of
all restaurants fail, then he's got to start 8+ before we start to find out if
he's the common denominator.

~~~
gkop
That's not how probability works [0]. Say we assume a more realistic 40%
success rate figure [1], given Jay's 2 trials:

Probability of 1 success:

(2 choose 1)(0.4^1)(0.6^(2-1)) = 0.48

Probability of 2 successes:

(2 choose 2)(0.4^2)(0.6^(2-2)) = 0.16

0.48 + 0.16 gives us a 64% of at least one of Jay's restaurants succeeding.

So the odds were in fact in his favor.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution#Cumulati...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution#Cumulative_distribution_function)
[1] [http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-04-16/the-
restauran...](http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-04-16/the-restaurant-
failure-mythbusinessweek-business-news-stock-market-and-financial-advice)

~~~
kennywinker
My apologies! I'm a long way out from stats class now, but I've been doing
some light A/B testing so I've been thinking about things from the perspective
of statistical significance rather than simple probability.

So with that in mind, only having two trials, can we really determine a
deviation from the norm? The odds were in his favour (slightly) but not so
much that we can say with any certainty that he or his tipless restaurants
were the issue.

I'm rusty on the math or I'd actually calculate statistical significance (p
value?) of 2 tries 1 success vs two tries 0 successes. I suspect it's below
95% though.

~~~
gkop
I agree we should not draw any conclusions from my arithmetic above. I just
couldn't resist the opportunity to correct someone's math on HN :)

------
ebol4
This article is very poorly written, and many of the points made in it are
unfounded or irrelevant. I completely support abolishing the practice of
tipping, but using bullshit arguments like "it's un-American" and "Economists
don't get it" don't lend any credence to your stance on the issue. The only
point that directly cited actual data was the first point. This article
shouldn't be voted up as much as it is.

------
bitsoda
There's nothing that grinds my gears like that blank tip line staring back at
me when I pay for my takeout or counter order. The soured rapport is palpable
when I hand back the signed receipt and the cashier glances at the striked-out
tip space. It leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth after what should have
been a simple transaction. Ugh.

~~~
lnanek2
I think you are just making that up in your head. I've never tipped for
counter or takeout, never heard of anyone else doing it either. I don't think
anyone expects it. The person still has to look down there, but there's
nothing more to it than that.

~~~
judk
It is trivial for register software to not print a tip line when the takeout
button is pressed, if the businesses wanted to support customers and not press
for tips there.

------
MrMeker
As a dishwasher who makes $8/hr, tips are very important. Mine are based on a
percentage of sales, like the "tipout" mentioned in the article. I don't know
where the author gets their information or if they have ever worked in a
restaurant. Some of the information is ridiculous. In California, everyone is
payed at least $8/hr before tips. Tips only add to take home pay.

Without tips, I can't imagine making more than minimum wage. Last night I made
$15.50/hr, nearly double what I or someone else would be payed without tips.
The market clearing price for a dishwasher is much lower than minimum wage.

------
userisme
I hate when I get takeout pizza or etc and the hostess asks for a tip. I would
be more than happy to tip the chef if the pizza is good but that isn't the
case. The tips go to the hostess.

Sometimes the hostess shares tips with chefs at the end of the night but
still.

~~~
drpgq
I find it annoying that more and more takeout places have a tip jar. How much
are you supposed to tip on a sub?

~~~
kennywinker
Under $8, whatever small change I have... $0.50 or so usually. Often enough,
nothing. After that, approx. 10%.

------
personlurking
Why not install ipads in the tables and do away with waiters? All one needs
are food runners. Pay them normal working rates so no tips needed, even for
them.

~~~
venomsnake
Yeah tablets will be great at providing anything other than dry facts about
the food.

At least 40-50% of the times I go out to eat I have just a vague idea what I
want and it is up to the waiter to match my desires with the menu.

Just to prevent shrieks from the chefs that lurk here - I never do special
requests on the tickets but sometimes a person needs a guidance trough the
menu.

~~~
judk
You are describing a very high end dining experience.

In most restaurants the server "recommends" the highest margin item (bonus
commission) or whatever they like or is easier for their friends in the back
to prepare. It's dinner, not a bespoke ball gown.

------
baby
That's one thing I never understood with the US. When you need a haircut, or
you want to take a cab, or go get a drink... you always have to tip. Whereas
the tip should be something you want to give to show appreciation.

So every time I went to the restaurant, I knew that the prices displayed were
NOTHING like the prices I'd have to pay in the end. They would add taxes and
if I didn't tip I would be seen as an asshole.

------
nsxwolf
I'm more annoyed with the normalization of tipping for behind-the-counter
service.

~~~
sergiotapia
I agree with you. You scooped ice-cream for me and you want me to tip you? The
gall of some people is just too much. Why should I just give you money?

~~~
jmccree
This is why the rest of the world hates us in the tech industry. We get to sit
in $1,000 chairs, which we easily justify, and in offices where catered food,
massages, game rooms, etc are common. Yet you want to complain about the tip
jar for an extra $1 that you've already made in the time you waited in line,
for the ice cream scooper who has to stand on their feet for 8+ hours and may
be lucky to get a bathroom break during lunch rush, and is going to make less
all day than you make in an hour, all while they are just trying to mentally
study for their econ 101 exam tomorrow.

It's totally the people making minimum wage working the counters who are happy
for an extra $20 _per day_ that have all the gall, not the tech industry folks
making six figures complaining about spending a couple extra bucks per day on
tips.

~~~
Camillo
Well, yes, once you accept that they are your inferiors you might even feel
good about giving them a little charity. As a European, having to get into
that frame of mind is probably the worst part about America's tipping culture.

~~~
tjansen
I believe it is rather a European thing to think that providing service to
others is demeaning, instead of just being thankful for the waiter's service.

~~~
Camillo
In Europe it's neither demeaning not something to be thankful about, it's just
someone doing a job. It's tipping that makes it weird.

------
nraynaud
And you don't even create a service charge, you just include your staff costs
(and your taxes while you're at it) in your food prices. What's written on the
menu outside the restaurant is what you pay at the end of the meal the
customer can shop around comparing the prices (like deciding between 2
restaurant, but also between a restaurant and a movie), and your market is
healthy.

------
mseidl
In America I generally tip pretty well regardless of service, just because in
some states their pay is so low. In some states when you receive tips, you can
be paid as low as 2.xx$ an hour. Which should be against the law.

In Germany a tip is not percentage based, but usually only 1-2€. But pay tends
to be a little better, everybody has health insurance , sick time and
vacation.

~~~
learc83
>In some states when you receive tips, you can be paid as low as 2.xx$ an
hour. Which should be against the law.

But if the server doesn't make at least minimum wage, the employer has to pay
the difference. So it already is against the law.

~~~
nathos
Of course in reality, if that server doesn't make at least minimum wage in
tips and tries to claim it from their employer, they'll simply get fired.

~~~
learc83
I've had plenty of server friends who've had to do this and didn't get fired.

In larger companies where payroll is handled by software, they'll do it
automatically.

------
arjie
I always tip a reasonable amount (15 to 50 percent) because it's what
Americans expect and I've already factored it in.

One thing that bothers me, though, is the view that's prevalent among wait
staff (if reddit posts by them are to believed) is that black people and
Indians don't tip. Well, the tip comes after the service.

No person is going to provide equal service to a perceived good tipper and a
perceived bad tipper. If, after providing inferior service, they receive a bad
tip, it just reinforces the view. If they get a good tip, it is too late for
me to receive good service.

Well, they'll still get the tip, but it makes me seethe when people say that.

------
switch007
Tipping in Canada prevents you getting rude reminders from staff. We Brits
find it truly baffling having to leave 50c-$2 for a drink you fetch yourself
from a bar.

Canada is all smiles and great service (sincerely) until you forget to tip.

------
SethMurphy
A great (for the owner) side effect of tipping is it allows restaurants to
remain open even during times they are slow (weekdays, off-season) by passing
much of the financial burden to the waitstaff instead of the owner. Otherwise
hours would probably be much less convenient for the customer. This may not be
the case in a large city but in smaller towns the weekday shifts are also a
rite of passage to earn a good night where you can make some money.

------
stefan_kendall3
I feel like there's a business opportunity here. There is a large group of
people who don't want to think about tipping, and would always just tip 20%.

Could a payment system or card do this automatically? Or perhaps legally
signal to the server that they should take 20%?

This doesn't seem impossible, and I think the idea has a reasonable market.

------
rch
Tipping extra sometimes encourages behaviors that are materially detrimental
to the business itself. This effect is pretty well known in the industry, so I
can't imagine many restaurateurs would complain if tipping were universally
ended for everyone. But are restaurant owners ready to start employing servers
and bartenders on professional terms?

The article alludes to the practice of tipping out the bussers and
dishwashers, but is a bartender more or less likely to do that with a $60-80K
salary? Maybe the back of the house could see a percentage of sales instead...
Or just food and wine, but not cocktails. There are really too many corner
cases and caveats to work through up front, but if this becomes a trend it
could open new opportunities for POS providers who might appreciate the shot
at staying relevant.

------
caycep
OT, an aside, but from when I last ate there ~ 2.5 years ago, Sushi Yasuda was
probably the best sushi restaurant in NYC. Maybe Masa, the famous place at
$300/head minimum was technically "better" in terms of the sushi you got, but
Yasuda was up there in terms of the quality of the fish and preparation, at a
much more reasonable price. (not cheap, but not outrageous like Masa).

Yasuda can probably get away without tipping, I am assuming, because the wait
staff is probably higher trained and more professional than your average
student or aspiring actor trying to pay the rent at the Denny's down the
street...

Heck, I now live in LA, and I can't find sushi that good.

------
Jugurtha
Before I even read the articles, here's how it goes:

\- Where I live, there isn't a culture of tips. Employees are paid by
employers.

\- Some employees though, and businesses, delight me. Like I "really" enjoy it
there. So I tip.

Look at what happened here: I tip in an environment not used to tips _at all_.

Tips should be a consequence for delight. Not some thing you do. It's just
that I can't help tip people who take care of me (and I'm from that culture).
Sometimes, they'll offer a discount and I'll insist on paying the full price.

It happens I enter a shop only looking for directions to somewhere, and the
person there goes beyond it. I buy something. It's natural for me.

Now, the very thought of _having_ to tip, as if it is a given, granted thing I
_have_ to do, whether the waiter/waitress was good or bad would make me sick.

I understand they are under pressure, but I have seen waiters/waitresses under
pressure behave with an unimaginable class and composure. With whom things
that would piss you off would magically disappear. They exist, you should hire
them. Not some snorky bitch waiter/waitress(yeah, there are waiters who are
bitches. It's not just waitresses) who'll treat you like crap, and then have
the gall to even _expect_ a tip (I mean, you screw up, you go incognito and
pray you even get to keep your job, not ask for a tip and have an attitude).

So I say this:

\- Their revenues are mainly from tips and they are not very well paid: It's
not the customer's problem what your employer does. But _you_ can delight a
patron, and most people who are delighted pay beyond reason for service beyond
"normal".

\- If you're a waiter and think this is unfair, look around you. I am sure
there are other waiters who get tipped regularly and fatly. What are they
doing you're not ?

Humans are generally not assholes. If a patron gets treated really well, only
a small percentage will be assholes.

I help my friend with his business (car accessories, installing alarm systems,
etc) and people just don't believe the length we go to. They just are shocked.
They've never seen that. The welcoming, the explanations, the garantees, etc.

I have a friend who sells computers and repairs them (and some other stuff
like flash drives, etc). People would drive 30 miles to buy a flash drive from
_him_. They could buy it anywhere, but they buy it from _him_. People came to
him from 400 miles away, because of reputation and service and referrals (his
regular clients vary from normal dude, to senators).

Your behavior matters.

I once called customer service of my crappy ISP, as usual, and that day, a
tremendous guy answered the phone. This is something I have never seen before.
I was literally in frigging bro love with him. I mean, I asked him if there is
any way I could like give feedback to his supervisor or something. He treated
it with grace saying he was flattered, and he was only doing his job. And no,
he wasn't just doing his job: He went the extra 100 miles.

I've eaten in many places. Some places I wouldn't let them keep a 5 cents
change because they were cunts. Some places I'd have no problem leaving 30% to
even 50% at times because they were simply surreal and treat people like
royalty.. Like really, really, really cater to you. And it's no difference of
small restaurant, big restaurant, or someone just outside grilling rabbits.

Behavior matters.

~~~
w0utert
Thanks for that, you basically described exactly how I feel about tipping in
the US. I'm from Europe myself, and where I live, a tip really is a way to
explicitly express appreciation of service, instead of some kind of unwritten
rule you have to tip '10% for mediocre service', '15% for satisfactory
service' and 'above 15% for outstanding service'. No tip here, basically means
'satisfactory', anything more is considered a reward for great service and I
don't mind tipping big at all when the service is good.

I travel to the US every now and then, and recently had a heated discussion
about tipping with my (also European) colleague, who insisted on tipping at
least 15% even though there was nothing special about the service we received.
The premise was that this was considered 'normal' in the US, that we had to
'conform to this culture of tipping', and that it would be considered rude to
tip less, say 10%. I vehemently oppose this kind of reasoning, because in my
opinion, a tip should reflect appreciation. I'm not opposed to tipping when
I'm somewhere where waiters are underpaid and depend on decent tips, but I
reject the idea I have to follow some kind of 'table' that says the minimum
tip is 10%, even if I get served a raw steak. I'd much rather tip a lot less
(say 5 to 10%) for mediocre service, and a lot more (say 20 to 25%) for
outstanding service, but apparently, this is 'rude' and 'inconsiderate'
according to my collegue.

The fact that the tip needs to be a percentage of the check doesn't make sense
to me anyway. If I order an expensive bottle of wine, the tip would have to
increase much more compared to when I order a cheap wine. That doesn't make
sense at all, it's completely unrelated to the performance of the waiter.

~~~
Zak
In the US, tips are how most servers are paid. In many cases, their hourly pay
is only enough to cover the _taxes_ on their tips. A low tip is interpreted as
some degree of insult, up to and including "I am so dissatisfied with the
service I received that I don't think you deserve enough money to support
yourself".

 _even if I get served a raw steak_

The waiter did not cook your steak. It's his job to try to resolve the problem
if you tell him about it, and how he handles that situation should certainly
influence his tip.

 _If I order an expensive bottle of wine... it 's completely unrelated to the
performance of the waiter_

That's not necessarily true. Attempting to up-sell is absolutely part of a
server's job, and the convention of tipping a percentage of the bill aligns
the server's incentives with the restaurant's profits.

I'm not saying that the tipping conventions in the US are the best way to pay
servers, but I will say that to disregard such a convention if you know about
it is rude. I dislike the German convention of attendants with tip trays
outside almost every public toilet, but it's my understanding that failing to
leave them at least 50 cents is considered quite rude, so I do it.

~~~
judk
Of a waiter is upselling because they expect ME to pay commission on their
ability to overcharge me, the waiter deserves 0 tip.

------
doublerebel
This article is clearly not written by anyone with service industry
experience.

1) Tips are unrelated to good service...good tips are mostly good luck

False, I could rely on 25%+ tip average, and as a server/bar trainer I trained
my staff to receive the same, by giving excellent service. _Being able to rely
on tips for income (as most of the industry does) is by definition not luck._

2) It's un-American

Tipping is a direct way for the consumer to reward and punish a worker or
market based on perceived value. If being capitalist is an American trait,
tipping is very American.

3) Economists don't get it

Where is the source cited for this? I know plenty of people who work in
finance, and tip very well. Professors however, seem to value service workers
differently...

4) It’s borderline racist

Because more minorities receive tips? The service industry gives countless
minorities and other disadvantaged groups (criminals, drifters, youth)
opportunities for employment and advancement not found in any other industry.
Most people who work in the kitchen do so by choice, anyone who desires and
has people/sales skills can just as easily get a front-of-house job. As a
service worker I was generally hired by and reporting to a minority.

4b) "it's usually illegal to redistribute tips among the staff."

False, tip pooling is extremely common between service workers and even back-
of-house (kitchen). Only tip sharing with managers is not practiced, because
they have higher guaranteed pay and it would be a conflict of interest for all
involved.

5) We don’t tip doctors, flight attendants, and any number of occupations
where service is important.

This is a personal anecdote of the writer. I tip flight attendants anywhere
they still take cash. And a surprising number of occupations are happy to
accept tips if you try. Tips don't have to be monetary, they can be free
tickets to a show or food or a vice (i.e. cigarettes or alcohol). Doctors
don't get tips because of the high pay of their job, but many industries have
bonuses provided by the buyer in exchange for a job performed beyond
expectations.

5b) [Workers practice tip-sharing] according to a culture called “tipout.” But
as this is not obligatory, it is inefficient and can foster cheating,
resentment, or worse.

False, and this clearly shows the writer does not have service industry
experience. Anywhere tipout is practiced, it is required as a percentage
minimum of sales. However, often workers "tipout" above and beyond the
required percentage, to anyone and everyone who earned it. In many service
jobs your co-workers are like family and you all take care of one another.

Priceonomics usually writes great articles, but this one should be taken with
a grain of salt.

~~~
shankyshank
And anyone who is an experienced server is so accustomed to the concept that
their compensation is nearly 100% tip-based and can no longer discern reality
from the tipping model. Nearly all my server friends will consistently tell me
about how they game the system, and how little their actual personality comes
into play during their experience. In the name of tips, they routinely abandon
their principles to earn more. Your replies sound defensive and biased, and,
while I understand your motive, they don't really address the underlying
issues surrounding tips. If I owned a restaurant, I would certainly not allow
them, especially after learning of Porter's results.

~~~
doublerebel
Can you provide any detail or evidence to support your third-person personal
anecdote? It's a very simple system of good service in, tips out -- there is
hardly room for 'gaming' or 'abandoning principles', whatever that is supposed
to mean.

~~~
tveita
What about the studies Jay Porter links to in his blog posts?

[https://www.hotelschool.cornell.edu/research/chr/pubs/tools/...](https://www.hotelschool.cornell.edu/research/chr/pubs/tools/tooldetails-13630.html)

[http://tippingresearch.com/uploads/managing_tips.pdf](http://tippingresearch.com/uploads/managing_tips.pdf)

~~~
doublerebel
I have read both studies. Neither suggest "abandoning principles." Both
suggest common techniques for good sales (i.e. calling customers by name,
upselling, being personable). This is no more a game than sales in any other
situation.

------
lnanek2
I think averaging out all the numbers and reporting service doesn't matter may
be missing those rare occasions when the restaurant really does screw up and
you want to punish them with no tip. I want the waiter to go work hard and get
me the right thing, etc., after a screw up or to know not to ignore my table
for an hour. I don't have that option with an enforced service charge.

~~~
judk
You can tell the manager why you aren't coming back.

------
ciupicri
> 5) We don’t tip doctors

Not in Romania and probably other former communist states. Though this is more
like a bribe than a tip.

------
doesnt_know
Tipping isn't a requirement for good service. Plenty of countries don't have a
culture of tipping and restaurants still exist. Tipping is just a convenient
way to dance around the concept of minimal wage and exploit workers, almost to
the point of slave labour.

------
balladeer
You ever tip the chef? The guy who cleans the table after you? The lady who
cleans the dishes? Or the guy sits at the cash counter? Or the guy who opens
and closes the door after you? Or the guy who walks around taking everyone's
orders?

So why do we start making a noise when it comes to tipping a waiter? Is it
only him/her in a restaurant who deserves to make some extra money? Or others
are well paid? Well, then why not pay him well too?

I have always found this attitude, that not tipping means you get the service
what you pay for, disturbing. This is regressive. The worse are the people who
chime in with their moronic "if you can't tip, stay at home". All the good
restaurants I've been to, the ones which are famous for both the food and
service, offer good food and service and food whether you tip or not. If
there's an exception that restaurant needs to have a closer look on its
policies and staff.

------
ghx
> We tip barbers and coat checkers along with waiters, but not doctors, flight
> attendants

You don't tip people who already get paid really well. I guarantee that you
would tip your doctor a lot if doctors usually only made $8/hour.

~~~
krzyk
It doesn't matter how much given person earns, I have no idea I don't see
his/hers pay slip. You pay for the service if it is good you can pay more, if
it is bad you would like to pay less (if at all).

------
jokoon
The first time I heard about the importance of tips as a french guy, I thought
waiter's only income were tips, so in my brain it implied waiters worked for
free unless you give them tips !

~~~
fatjokes
This is almost true. The minimum wage laws do not apply to waiters, so they
are often paid $2-3/hr.

~~~
nathos
Las Vegas casino hostesses (the ones that bring you "free" drinks while you
gamble) work exclusively for tips.

~~~
vacri
I've heard that at some high-end restaurants, waitstaff actually pay to work
tables, since the tips on the high bills are high themselves.

------
abalone
Mandatory Reservoir Dogs clip:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ)

