
What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers - huihuiilly
http://bostonreview.net/politics-education-opportunity/thomas-baxter-teachers-guns
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Casseres
"hollow points, rounds designed to swell upon impact to ensure maximum harm."

My understanding is that hollow points were designed to prevent over-
penetration rather than to harm more. How does the author know it was designed
to "ensure maximum harm"? I can't help but think it was intentional.

Edit: Of course now that I read the rest of the article after initially
writing this comment, I see that quote is also highlighted in a text box (side
note, what is that called when they do that?).

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jvergeldedios
They're designed to prevent going straight through by expanding inside of soft
tissues. One of the effects of that is increased tissue damage. So they maybe
they weren't "designed to cause maximum harm" but that's certainly one of the
effects over a full metal jacket round.

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potta_coffee
Yes but ammunition manufacturers often advertise the enhanced lethality of
their hollowpoints. It's pretty clear that it's seen as a benefit.

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jvergeldedios
I should have been more clear. That was the point I was trying to make. Anyone
I've talked to about using firearms for home defense likes hollow points
because of the damage they do to a home invader, not how much safer the rounds
are because they stop.

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potta_coffee
Well, over-penetration is definitely an important concern in a home defense
situation. I remember reading a case about a man that shot an intruder with a
.44 Mag, the round went through the robber, through his house, across the
street to another house where it hit his neighbor.

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lwhalen
The hand-wringing by the author in this piece is off the charts. If they're
this conflicted about carrying, they shouldn't do it. Carrying is a strictly
voluntary practice, and I'm glad to see Ohio is enacting (IMHO sensible)
legislation allowing it for teachers _who want to participate_.

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LyndsySimon
Based on my experience, this sounds like someone who takes it seriously, but
isn’t happy about feeling the need to carry. That doesn’t make them less
effective or safe, it’s an internal struggle.

I carry every day, and have for over a decade now. It changes your mindset
(for the better), and makes you confront your own feelings ahead of time.

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maxxxxx
Unless they train frequently I can't imagine this working well. When I was at
military we did shooting exercises at targets. This was easy but as soon as
there was an exercise where the situation is messy or you are under pressure
things fall apart quickly. There were situations where our group would have
killed each other instead of the attackers. You need a lot of training to do
that right.

I don't know how things develop at a school shooting but I wouldn't be too
surprised if people ended up shooting each other or the wrong people. I hope
the organizers have thought this really through.

~~~
luigibosco
Great feedback, except for the part about the organizers, who obviously have
not.

More guns is not the solution to problems with guns.

Improving access to medicine, economic stability and programs that help
empower educators and students to build safer spaces may be though.

In my school all the kids knew who was having a hard time and who was
isolated, it would be better to reach out to these students rather than shoot
at them. Students are going to school to learn and we're teaching and modeling
militarism and violence.

The reason, my guess - doesn't make headlines, isn't good for bottom line.

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dmschulman
"In late fall, an anonymous threat of school violence is shared on social
media. It is improbable, but all threats must be handled as emergencies. The
staff reacts with practiced precision, preparing students to evacuate. I begin
alerting parents and working with the police."

...

"Jason lays out the story, how he learned belatedly that some students in his
class had planned to leave early that day for a party in the woods. Jason, who
had thought they were his friends, had not been told. When Jason realized he
had been left out, he gave in to anger and posted a threat, hoping to ruin the
other students’ fun. It was irrational, as most teenage decisions are.

In minutes, our conversation is over, and I watch as he is handcuffed and
stuffed into the back of a cruiser. The deputies try to hold back community
members on the opposite sidewalk. Other policemen are already at the
courthouse to obtain a warrant to search his family’s property. The married
campers, I think as the cars pull away."

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SolaceQuantum
"But now it was no longer a theoretical question of protecting kids at any
cost. The faceless target at the shooting range, so absurd in its proportions,
had a face: Jason, whom I wanted so badly to help."

Yeah, I don't know. I feel that we shouldn't be training civilians in the
psychological dehumanization necessary to kill someone. Especially students
they know. We know this kind of mindset is damaging to the psyche. Also, has
there ever been a case where a teacher successfully shot a school shooter
before any innocents could be harmed? America has so many school shootings,
we'd have data... such unfortunate data.

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Casseres
> has there ever been a case where a teacher successfully shot a school
> shooter before any innocents could be harmed?

I don't think there ever will be. I would probably not shoot a kid that I only
_suspect_ would shoot someone. I doubt a teacher would either.

(Also, is the kid a "school shooter" if he/she did not harm anyone?)

There has been a case where a principal got a gun from his car and stopped a
school shooter though.

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SolaceQuantum
Could you link me the case? I'm pretty curious about it. The cases I've seen
have been when the school shooter was already largely finished killing people.

~~~
Casseres
I had to do an internet search. It was Pearl High School, and it looks like
the principal only stopped the subject from leaving the school grounds. Who
knows if the subject would have killed more elsewhere, the subject had already
killed that day even before going to the school.

That's the thing, we'll never know how many shooting deaths were prevented by
"a good guy with a gun", because we don't know if more people would have been
shot and died if the shooter wasn't stopped.

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minikites
The USA is the only country where mass shootings happen regularly, I wonder
what every other country in the world does differently?

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/mass-
shoo...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/mass-shootings)

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mwilliaams
Uh, no it’s not. You think they happen less often in Russia? Syria? Venezuela?

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smileysteve
> You think they happen less often in Russia? Syria? Venezuela?

"Mass Shootings", yes. "Shoot outs", no.

Venezuela, most shooting homicides are to cover up a crime, such as petty
theft. These are inherently not "mass".

Syria is in active civil war, these are not "mass shootings" as much as
battles. They're also more shootings to achieve a political end (not to create
terror towards a political end) or for the personal vendettas of the shooter.

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pochamago
Mass is simply defined as three or more people getting shot.

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kthejoker2
I mean we can play semantics but the lone wolf shooter who shoots (many, many)
people for no other reason than to shoot them is a problem almost entirely
uniquely American.

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CompanionCuuube
But the lone wolf killer who kills many people for no other reason than to
kill them is not.

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justtopost
While there is valid critisism to be leveled here, the elitist, yet doom-
filled language of the author does more to inflame than to inform, dispite the
detail. I dislike the militarization of police. I think modern traning
instills cowardace and shooting first and thinking later, and it condones
murder in the line of duty. But to paint a voluntary action, that the author
mentions nothing of fighting against as evil, is disingenous at best, and
manipulative as I read it.

