
Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip - lkurusa
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/11/apple-walks-ars-through-the-ipad-pros-a12x-system-on-a-chip/
======
carlesfe
Apple are paving the way to A-chip laptops, not only by building excellent
tech, but also PR-wise.

Their last keynote was clearly a gymnastics exercise to ignore Intel CPUs and
dismiss laptop performance while later praising their own chips which power a
tablet that has no software ready to use that much speed.

The fact that one of the most secretive companies executes a PR-stunt by
providing an exclusive interview to one of the most respected tech outlets
only confirms this strategy. Expect similar movements in the following months.

Now, it is only a matter of "when", not "if", Apple will start selling laptops
with their chips.

As as an aside, this strategy is extremely similar to the one they used when
dropping the headphone jack on the iphone: "leak" the news to a respected
outlet, perform damage control before the keynote, and test the reaction of
the market. When they introduced the headphoneless iphone, that topic was so
beaten up that it got much less attention compared to a surprise revelation.

~~~
Svexav
Why does it have to be a laptop? What not an iPhone with a desktop mode you
can pair with a monitor, keyboard, and trackpad?

I’d love the ability to carry all my software and data around in a phone
without lugging around a laptop or having to buy a desktop computer. And I’d
love to never concern myself with transferring or syncing data again.

And why not let us connect an iPhone to an eGPU for desktop gaming?

~~~
camillomiller
Look up what Tim Cook thinks about convergence. That is not what an iPhone is
for. Period. This gimmick is just a pipedream of us nerds. It won't have the
slightest chance in the market and it would be a subpar product. Both Huawei
and Samsung have implemented such a solution on their flagship smartphones
since at least two years. They work as advertised, but nobody could give half
a shit about them.

~~~
bsder
> Both Huawei and Samsung have implemented such a solution on their flagship
> smartphones since at least two years. They work as advertised, but nobody
> could give half a shit about them.

That's more a reflection of the fact that Samsung and Huawei suck at software
--Bixby, anyone?

Everybody said the same thing about WiFi.

I used WiFi when it first came out--PCMCIA cards, external stick on antennas,
etc. Worked as advertised but nobody gave a shit about them---until you sat in
front of somebody and used it. It was almost a virus and spread like one.

Then _everybody_ gave a shit. And look where we are now.

Everything on your phone--everywhere--is the endgame.

~~~
6nf
> Everything on your phone--everywhere--is the endgame.

The endgame is everything on every device you own. Sometimes you'll use your
watch. Sometimes your phone. Sometimes your tablet or laptop and sometimes
your big screen TV. It's just differently sized screens that all connect to
your data in the cloud.

That is the endgame here. Nobody wants to go swimming with their phone or
watch a feature film on their phones or do 8 hours of office work on their
phones.

------
GeekyBear
I have a feeling that most of the people who frequent this site would be more
interested in Anandtech's A12 deep dive that was part of their iPhone XS
review than a PR interview on the A12X that is light on performance or power
use metrics.

CPU:

[https://www.anandtech.com/show/13392/the-iphone-xs-xs-max-
re...](https://www.anandtech.com/show/13392/the-iphone-xs-xs-max-review-
unveiling-the-silicon-secrets/4)

GPU:

[https://www.anandtech.com/show/13392/the-iphone-xs-xs-max-
re...](https://www.anandtech.com/show/13392/the-iphone-xs-xs-max-review-
unveiling-the-silicon-secrets/7)

------
magicalist
This is a fine article for what it is, but isn't it really "Apple _marketing_
walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip"? (at least I assume
Anand wasn't hired as a SoC architect)

There's little technical detail that wasn't in the ipad review's benchmarks[1]
and previous speculation on using apple chips in desktop machines[2].

Everything new they gave no details on, and the only in-depth answers were
hard hitting questions like "you could have made a slow chip, why did you
decide to make a fast one instead?" and "why is apple so good at teamwork?"
(maybe not the questions that were asked, but they were the questions that
were answered :)

[1] [https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/11/2018-ipad-pro-
review...](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/11/2018-ipad-pro-review-whats-
a-computer/)

[2] [https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/04/apple-is-
exploring-m...](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/04/apple-is-exploring-
macs-running-its-own-cpus-but-that-dream-is-a-long-way-off/)

~~~
coder543
I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, but Anand Shimpi is _hardly_
"Apple marketing." He was almost certainly hired because of his technical
expertise, not for any marketing ability.

If I were to speculate, due to his decades of industry experience evaluating
hardware platforms, his role in Apple is to provide strategic direction and
guidance on how to build the best hardware platforms. I can't think of any
other role they would have wanted him for... which could be a failure of
imagination on my part.

So... no, it's not "Apple marketing". _Anand Shimpi is involved!_

~~~
icanhackit
> _his role in Apple is to provide strategic direction and guidance_

That's the feeling I got, as well as perhaps being a human abstraction layer
between the engineers and the executives. If you can describe in relatively
understandable terms something that is technically difficult to thousands of
laypeople (well, that's unfair - Anandtech was for nerds but being a nerd
doesn't make you an IC/EE engineer), you'd be an asset to both the corporate
and engineering teams.

And that translation works both ways - understanding the direction of the
company with regards to future products vs what you want to get out of your
silicon teams (e.g. when Anand mentions _thermal envelopes_ , that might
include an understanding of the limitations stemming from the potential
form/design and material of a future product).

------
camillomiller
I was briefed personally by Anand after the introduction event in New York. I
guess I can say that now, as it's out that Anand is taking care of this side
of the business. It was the most compelling, interesting, clear and well
informed briefing on a silicon in my entire career as a tech reporter. Anand
is a an A+ player, and Apple has made an incredible hire in his case.

------
josephg
I wonder how long it will be before Apple releases a laptop with an A-X chip.

They’re already shipping their custom T2 chips in their laptops. The compiler
toolchain can build great binaries for their A chips. They’ve swapped CPU
architecture before and the modern Mach binary format can hold versions of the
executable built for different architectures.

They will probably need a Rosetta equivalent to emulate x86 for all the
applications that are slow to switch. That might be tricky because of the huge
surface area of the x86 instruction set. But I think it will only be a matter
of time. It might also explain why they have kept the MacBook and MacBook Air
product lines - they might want one of them to stay with intel’s cpus and the
other to switch to their A* chips going forward. Or maybe they’ll just wait
another generation or two and switch CPUs across their whole line in one go.

~~~
misnome
Would dual chips make sense? A bit like their dual graphics, run most of the
OS and anything compatible in one, and have another, low power x86 core take
over transparently on demand (like, when running an x86 only program)

~~~
xvector
Aside from performance, a huge reason to abandon Intel is security. I don't
see Apple keeping an Intel chip if they switch to the A-X series as this would
defeat much of the point.

Anyways, Apple has never been one for smooth transitions. Their history is
dotted with big, bold changes. If they kept x86 they would slow the adoption
of their new architecture. Apple will likely take a "take it or leave it"
attitude like they did with the CD drive and headphone jack.

------
AceJohnny2
I found Rob Beschizza's thought [1] about the new iPad Pro insightful: "a very
powerful machine, handicapped by iOS having no workflow".

Because of the sandboxed nature of iOS, and the current immaturity of the
Files app/feature, it's hard and inconsistent how you can exchange files
between apps on the iPad. As a result, you're still mostly stuck to using one
app to do things in iOS. The workflow is still fragmented.

[1] [https://boingboing.net/2018/11/06/ipad-pro-deemed-amazing-
fo...](https://boingboing.net/2018/11/06/ipad-pro-deemed-amazing-for-wo.html)

~~~
josteink
So basically the same kind of argument which has plagued all high end Android
tablets: Good hardware held back by lacking software.

Iow: If you want a pc, get a pc.

~~~
AceJohnny2
Exactly. Except all the discussion about the hardware power of this iPad is
how it's comparable to a PC laptop.

But from a software usability standpoint, it's not.

------
tokyodude
Is it really true this A12X is comparable to last year's Macbook Pro?

On that Macbook Pro I could run several VMWare sessions running Windows and
Linux (have run 3 at the same time in the past). I can run Handbrake encoding
videos across cores while still browsing the net in Chrome with 4 windows open
each to different profiles each with 5 to 20 tabs. Have 4 terminal windows
open, at list one of them serving a dev webpage. Run VSCode and Unity and
Visual Studio and other stuff all at once. I've also done things like compile
Chrome from source. Run XCode, run 2-3 iOS simulators.

I get that an A12X can't do those exact tasks as it's not the same instruction
set but could it do the equivalent and get similar perf?

That's amazing if true. An iPad Pro weighs 1/4th of my MBP (2014). My MBP's
fans spin like crazy when running a high intensity app and the case gets too
hot to touch.

I'd love to believe a machine that has no fans and doesn't get hot and weighs
1/4 as much could actually have the same or more perf for real but when I
actually use an iPad it rarely feels as fast and given it doesn't multitask
well there's no way for me to check that perf is really comparable in real
world use cases.

Anyone have any insight? Is it just because the chip was redesigned to be more
efficient it can match or exceed the i7 in my MBP? Should Amazon be filling
their AWS racks with A12X based machines that get the same per at much less
heat and power? (Yea I know they can't by A12X chips buy still). Don't iPhones
and say top Samsung phones generally show similar perf?

~~~
kllrnohj
It is comparable at running geekbench 4, yes. And some web benchmarks seem
pretty comparable.

But your workload doesn't seem to include those things, so hard to say.
Critically A12X is unlikely to have hardware virtualization support, so your
use case of VMware would be slow even if it wasn't doing any binary
translation.

Also your MBP's fans spin because it's trying to achieve higher _sustained_
performance. Typically mobile devices will just instead thermal throttle hard.
Like, lose half their performance hard. How well can the iPad Pro sustain its
performance? That's a real big question.

Re AWS racks: No, they can't. A12X in the server world would be a joke. It'd
be competing against things like AMD's Rome which is 64 cores / 128 threads
with, and this part is critical, up to 4TB of RAM with _128 PCI-E lanes_. Even
if the A12X could compete on raw CPU throughput it can't compete on I/O,
virtualization, etc... The A12X is also going to be pulling a lot more power
than you might expect. It's not _that_ much more power efficient.

------
X-Istence
I really wish Apple to stick an A-series chip in a MacBook Pro with an Intel
co-processor.

Best of both worlds.

Don't need x86? Don't spin up the Intel chip, doing something that requires
x86, spin it on up.

This way you get software compatibility with the power sipping of the ARM CPU.

~~~
scarface74
Been there done that.

I had a PowerMac 6100/60 with the DOS Compatibility card that had its own
sound chip, video controller and optionally RAM.

My 6100/60 had 24MB of RAM and the card had 32MB of RAM.

Before that, I had an LCII with a ‘//e card.

I doubt that modern Apple would ship a hybrid x86/Arm laptop though.

------
iagooar
This is nuts. The iPad Pro is so massively ahead of the game, it's even hard
to believe. It is faster than the MBP 2017 and ALMOST as fast as the MBP 2018.
We're talking a device that is 5.9mm thick and is battery-powered!

Now here's my prediction: Apple does not really want to build an ARM-powered
MBP. Instead, they will eventually allow iPads to double boot into iOS and/or
MacOS.

Call me crazy, but this would be huge. Of course, Apple would still build
traditional laptops, maybe even with ARM processors in them, but only as a
byproduct of their iPhone / iPad product line.

~~~
xvector
Tim Cook himself flat out said they have no intention of _ever_ merging MacOS
and iOS or converging the two in any way.

~~~
iagooar
Merging does not equal dual boot. They'd still be separate pieces of software,
but the ability to run MacOS on iPad hardware would be huge.

~~~
xvector
I just don't see Apple ever adding a feature as convoluted as dual-boot.
That's just about the least Apple software feature they could add.

------
samfisher83
I would have figured anand would give this interview to anandtech.

~~~
strmpnk
I guess his involvement may have made that look like a conflict of interest?
AnandTech already has a reputation Apple favoritism (deserved or not, I can't
say).

------
cromwellian
Would have been interesting for Ars to have asked them how their GPU differs
from the IMGTec/PVR IP they acquired besides adding more cores, what did they
change?

They give the impression by saying it’s a custom GPU that it’s a from scatch
in-house design but it’s unlikely to be the case.

~~~
sweden
The GPU they were licensing from Imagination was already very tailored to
their needs. Apple already had a strong saying in the architecture, in the
driver, in the compiler and in the implementation details of the GPU they were
buying from them.

Moving to a "custom GPU" was basically Apple saying "Ok, thanks, we are taking
over from here".

------
suvelx
I've been considering getting an iPad w/ Pencil for over a year now as a note-
taking and doodling apparatus (too often I'll scribble a system diagram down,
realise I've missed a bit, and had to start again thanks to the immutability
of pen and paper). But beyond that, I don't think I'd have a use for one.

All this power sounds great, but I really don't know what else I'd do with it,
beyond surfing an ad-riddled internet on my couch.

If any developer has a life-changing daily use case for their iPad, I'd love
to hear it.

~~~
Engineering-MD
Content blockers allow for ad free (ish) browsing on iOS. I have found the
iPad Pro with pencil an excellent tool for research (reading and annotating
papers), and using Pythonista python based programming can be done, although
more as a hobby.

