
Soy's Negative Effects (2009) - 001sky
http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects
======
lambda
This is why I am always extremely skeptical of any kind of diet extremism. I
cringe any time someone labels something a "superfood", as that means they are
likely to encourage eating it far beyond the point where it is healthy. I also
cringe any time a dietary recommendation to remove a major macronutrient (fat,
carbs) from your diet; that tends to lead to extreme compensation with
something else, which can also be unhealthy.

And this is also why I cringe about the hype over Soylent. We really don't
know all that much about nutrition. We are constantly discovering new things
about it; it's an incredibly complex topic, the way our body interacts with
different things that we eat. Coming out with a product that you're
encouraging people to replace their entire diet with, and saying that it's
safe because you have personally tested it for a couple of months, is insane.
A lot of these kinds of effects can only be seen after years, or only impact
10% of the population, or the like.

    
    
        "In today's supermarkets," he says, his voice weary, 
        "you can't hardly get anything without at least some soy 
        in it."
    

It's funny that he says this. I eat very little soy, unless I've chosen to in
the form of tofu or soy sauce. How do I manage this? By only buying things
that don't need ingredient lists because they are a single ingredient. If you
buy fresh produce, meat, flour, eggs, etc. and actually cook yourself, you can
easily control what's in your diet. Don't buy prepackaged instant meals that
you'll need to inspect the ingredient list of, and you'll be fine.

Anyhow, I'm sure that after articles like this, people will start doing the
extreme reaction again, of "soy free" everything, replacing with something
else that has some other potential health problem. Soy, in moderation, causes
no problems for the vast majority of people. This guy is a special case, due
to both his sensitivity and the extreme amount he consumed, replacing much of
his protein intake with soy.

~~~
rdtsc
> This is why I am always extremely skeptical of any kind of diet extremism.

That's my approach as well. Single ingredient things are hard though. Take
meat or eggs. It is one ingredient but depending what that animal ate or drugs
they've been injected, it is also hard to know what you are getting. At some
point I just give up and stop worrying about it. Some people get way too
obsessed about it, someone I know "owns" a fraction of a cow get accessed to
unpasteurized milk, that is fine by me but not the level I would go to.

~~~
lambda
Yeah, even those can vary, but if you generally try to err on the side of
local, organic, humanely raised, non GMO foods, you can be reasonably
confident in the food you eat. Obviously you're never going to hit those all
at once, and avoiding extremism in those areas can be good too; for example,
sometimes people using organic pesticides can do more damage as they have to
use much more pesticides than those using IPM with synthetic pesticides.

My approach is generally to err on the side of what's good, healthy,
sustainable, and tasty rather than than what's cheap and convenient, but not
to be an extremist about anything. I eat a mostly, but not entirely vegetarian
diet; I get most of my produce locally when it's in season, but more shelf-
friendly foods like flour I don't worry about getting locally.

------
stugs
This article is 4 years old and has been debunked over and over again.

This has a links to a number of studies on the subject

[http://www.livestrong.com/article/548574-soy-protein-male-
br...](http://www.livestrong.com/article/548574-soy-protein-male-breasts/)

~~~
maxerickson
That link has a reference (not a link) to one article that (apparently)
provides contrary evidence. The only link provided debunks none of it.

~~~
stugs
You should probably scroll all the way to the bottom

~~~
maxerickson
Humor me. Reproduce the links here.

Do note that my agenda is a lot more about live strong being a poor resource
than it is about soy.

~~~
herval
There, copied one for you, so you don't have to waste 2 seconds giving a
pageview to that pesky website:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18558591/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18558591/)

~~~
maxerickson
That's the only link there!

And like I said, it doesn't debunk anything.

------
credo
This report talks about new introductions to the American diet. However,
though soy may be relatively new to the US, my understanding is that Soy and
soy-based products like Tofu have been popular in countries like China and
Japan for many centuries.

Has any research been done to establish whether soy has been harmful in
countries where they've been eating it for generations ?

I'd also be curious to know whether the alleged "harmful" effect observed in
soy-based products (like soymilk etc.) has also been observed in plain
soybeans.

------
jacques_chester
Obligatory Examine.com link:

[http://examine.com/faq/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-
me.html](http://examine.com/faq/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-me.html)

~~~
theboss
exactly (T)his. i (k)new you would beat me to posting. even control + f'd
(Two) see if y(o)u beat me to postin(G)

I'm allergic to milk and have been taking soy protein, soy milk, etc. for
years with no problems. My evidence is anecdotal but silverhydra's is not.

If anyone thinks there is a problem with soy, go read examine.

~~~
dhughes
Why even drink soy "milk" why not water or some other liquid, or other animal
milk you may not be allergic to?

It seems to me people are compelled to have a milk substitute whether due to
allergy or ethical reasons as if we need to have something called milk in our
fridges.

It reminds me of the tofurky a soy shaped turkey supposedly tastes like
turkey, it would be like a person who eats a lot of meat making a carrot out
of meat colouring it orange and making it taste like a carrot, why even
bother.

~~~
jacques_chester
For any dietary scheme built on avoiding certain foods (vegetarian, vegan,
gluten-free, keto, paelo etc), there is a thriving cottage industry of
substitutes.

Some folk have an ethical objection to milk but want something that vaguely
resembles it. For such people, whitened liquid cardboard -- soy juice -- is a
popular alternative. Other people drink almond juice or rice juice.

Edit: and some people have allergies or intolerance to things in milk. I'm
lactose intolerant, so I'm covered by lactose-free milk. But some people are
genuinely intolerant of milk proteins etc.

~~~
lambda

      whitened liquid cardboard
    

I object to that characterization. I rather like the taste of plain,
unsweetened soymilk. It fills a very different niche than milk, however; milk
is thicker and heavier (unless it's skim crap), and I'll have it with dessert,
while soymilk is lighter and more refreshing. But I don't drink either on a
regular basis.

~~~
jacques_chester
I think it varies from person to person; I know people who love it.

I found it tasted, quite sincerely, like cardboard. I was reminded of the
Adams line about "almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea".

------
throwaway9848
What a pile of first world problems. I suspect a lot fewer guys will quit
sugar and lose weight instead of quitting soy after reading this. And diabetes
makes soy estrogen mimicking hormones look like kids' play when it comes to
erectile dysfunction.

A guy in his 50s or 60s (well past when the boys are pumping out huge amounts
of testosterone) drinking _3 quarts_ of soy milk per day is not exactly
typical.

~~~
stugs
And don't forget, it was only one guy...

~~~
throwaway9848
The NEJM it ain't. Thanks for the links to the debunking articles.

------
r0h1n
I saw Soylent mentioned on the first page, and then this para from the NYT's
Well page stood out even more starkly:

>> "Last year, in its nutrition guidelines for cancer survivors, the American
Cancer Society noted that eating traditional soy foods — like tofu, miso,
tempeh and soy milk — may help lower the risk of breast, prostate and other
cancers. _But the guidelines do not recommend soy supplements, which tend to
be highly processed and not very rigorously tested._ "

[http://www.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2013/09/27/ask-well-is-
it-...](http://www.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2013/09/27/ask-well-is-it-safe-to-
eat-soy/)

Here's another piece about Soy's side effects from the Scientific American:
[http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=soybean-
fer...](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=soybean-fertility-
hormone-isoflavones-genistein)

~~~
zarriak
Soy is not used in Soylent. He named it after Make Room! Make Room![1]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_(food_substitute)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_\(food_substitute\))

~~~
r0h1n
You're right, and my bad at that wrong association.

------
vinbreau
I have a friend who's son is being raised primarily by his ex-wife. They have
a good relationship even divorced, especially where the son is concerned.
Recently the boy stayed with his father for a week, during which he took him
to the gym to get in shape. He's a little fat and his father wanted to help
him work on his self-image. At the gym, the boy would not remove his shirt,
and when he finally acquiesced and did his father found out it was because his
son had considerable man-tits. Enough that they actually are looking like
women's breasts.

The boy's mother had been feeding him soy milk and other soy products as a
primary staple of their diet. She eventually caught on what was happening but
only after it was too late. He's sworn off of soy. It's going to take
considerable effort to undo what has happened to him, his doctor has even
discussed the possibility of testosterone treatments to counteract the damage.

~~~
rdtsc
It is interesting that usually kids don't get a good diet because parents
don't care enough about nutrition, just eat whatever is cheaper or faster. In
this case it is the opposite, a soy diet is usually associated with being very
conscious of what the child eats. Soy is usually associated with "healthy"
eating. But it ended up having an opposite effects.

"Healthy" eating is a huge market. There is of course Whole Foods, whole isles
devoted to it in regular stores. It is a good of course. But there is a lot of
irrationality and guesswork going on. What is interesting is that it is often
people who are considered "intelligent" that end up believing various fads and
strange ideas about health and nutrition. Like say I know a smart guy, a good
programmer, believed in Acai thing and was drinking that. Someone else is into
colon cleansing. Another one is eating super-doses of vitamins. These are
supposedly educated people, good logic, math and programming skills yet they
believe these strange ideas. And because of their intelligence they are harder
to convince, as they are a lot better at rationalizing things away.

------
cko
This might be completely hypothetical, but might there be a genetic component?

I'm convinced (based on my heavy soy intake as an Asian male with no ill
effects) that some people are less prone to what the guy in the article
experienced.

~~~
shawnee_
Yes, but not the genetics of humans. My guess would be that the genetics of
the soybean plants would be a more likely culprit for any strange hormonal
reactions in men:

 _HT soybeans went from 17 percent of U.S. soybean acreage in 1997 to 68
percent in 2001 and 93 percent in 2013_

source: [http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/adoption-of-
geneticall...](http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/adoption-of-genetically-
engineered-crops-in-the-us/recent-trends-in-ge-adoption.aspx)

The reality is that soybeans aren't genetically modified for nutritional
reasons; they are modified for economic reasons, and GE foods haven't been
around long enough for us to really know what kind of side-effects come from
optimizing for the herbicide-tolerant "economics" side of GE.

------
lindybomber
This article treats soy like a poison. What makes a poison is the dose, and
the stories cited are talking about enormous doses of soy. Too much water will
give you dilutional hyponatremia, does that mean you need to cut it out of
your diet? Here's a accessible article: [http://blog.zocdoc.com/does-soy-
feminize-men-fact-vs-myth/](http://blog.zocdoc.com/does-soy-feminize-men-fact-
vs-myth/). And here's a study:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378106](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378106).
Sigh.

------
zarriak
I think almond milk tastes better anyways.

------
mrobot
As much as people talk about how this is debunked, there was a period of about
6 months (early 30s) where i was drinking tons of Silk and i could swear it
made me soft breasty, and i swear everything hardened up again when i quit.

------
Beserker
Soy contains phytoestrogens. Rats fed soy products had significantly reduced
testosterone levels.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens)

------
iterative
Red-blooded American Males: 1 Unwashed Hippies: 0

------
kimonos
Thanks for the info! I'm glad I never introduced my son to soy products..

~~~
mattstreet
Is this going to be your only source of information on the subject?

~~~
stugs
The old adage "If it's on the internet it's true" is still alive and well...
unfortunately

~~~
stefan_kendall
Soy milk is absolutely not a requirement of any diet. In the scheme of human
diet, it is a relatively new invention, so it absolutely cannot be a necessary
staple of human diet.

Can the body process it? Sure. But your body can digest almost everything.

------
eloff
My parents have been telling me this for years. I'm glad I listened.

