
Will my earning potential be severely limited as a felon? - ConvictDev
Last year in February I was arrested and  charged with 4 counts of possession with intent to distribute (I had small amounts of 4 different drugs). My case is a few months away from coming to a close. While there&#x27;s a small chance I could receive a deal that drops my charges after successful completion of probation, it&#x27;s somewhat likely I will instead do probation and receive the convictions.<p>I fear that if I receive the convictions (which cannot be expunged in my state) then I will be limited to small companies with mediocre pay. Is this true? Are my hopes of making a great living in this field squandered because I screwed up, admittedly totally, at one point in my life?<p>I&#x27;m re enrolling in school this fall and still have 3 ish years to go due to switching majors to CS. Showing that I can finish school will work on my favor. Are there any other things I can be doing to improve my chances of finding a great job after school if I do indeed receive convictions?<p>Thanks :)
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mindcrime
If your felony was murder or rape or something, I think the answer would be
"yes". But under the circumstances, I think you will find lots of companies
(probably startups in particular) are run by people who don't care about a
"possession with intent" charge.

If we were in a position to hire right now, and I were evaluating you as a
candidate, it would barely factor in at all. Hell, I might even consider it a
positive. But I'm a government hating libertarian who thinks all drug laws
should be abolished, so my position may be a bit unique.

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zer00eyz
As an interesting note:

Lots of companies that do background checks aren't doing them to see if you
have an arrest record at all.

They are doing them to see if you have been honest and if you haven't been
convicted of financial crimes, or computer crimes.

The former is a big deal if you do credit card processing and money handling,
the latter may or may not be an issue depending on what it is and who you are
working for.

Smaller companies give a lot of leeway to hiring managers, and there are jobs
that you may be excluded from, but it isn't the end of the world. Honestly,
places that believe past performance is a predictor of future results need a
reality check. Peoples lives, and circumstances change enough that it isn't a
good predictor of anything.

As you are a CS student, I highly recommend that you start working on and
contributing to open source projects and personal projects. Working as an
engineer ends one of three ways... You spend your years pushing the buttons
and collecting a check, you do that same thing and get lucky with an exit or
you start doing your own thing. That last one gives you mastery over your own
fate and destiny and is the way a lot of us are really getting ahead.

It is much easier to try and fail when your young... eating ramen, working
long hours aren't as rough on you and not having kids or dependents are big
factors to you being able to sustain a lifestyle that those of us who are
older don't have as easy of a time doing.

~~~
ConvictDev
I ultimately plan on starting my own thing. Whether that be consulting, or
SaaS, or whatever, I'm not sure. But I don't feel I'll ever be fulfilled until
I'm making money for myself. I'm going to be graduating with quite a lot above
the average student debt, though, so my first 5 ish years after school I plan
on spending as an employee, gaining skills and dumping everything I can
towards the loans. Thank you for your response!

~~~
brianwawok
As your own boss I doubt anyone would know.

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Spooky23
Felony convictions will close many doors, especially at large companies.

Focus on places with "ban the box" laws and jobs that don't have direct impact
with financial or health data.

You'll be fine. Hold yourself to a higher standard going forward and you'll be
fine.

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gtirloni
"with the intent to distribute" is what you need to figure out how to explain
to a hiring manager (if that's on your record like that, I have no idea how
detailed that information might be). Questions like what were you thinking,
did you know the law, the consequences, etc. The hiring manager probably
couldn't care less about drugs, they want to assess your ability to make
judgements.

In any case, I'd suggest you keep your dev skills above average. That will
help make this situation less important. With a shortage of skilled
professionals, certain things can be ignored provided they aren't too blatant
(or are shown to have improved).

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i336_
This thread from 3 years (1223 days) ago discussed this topic rather
thoroughly:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6750043](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6750043)

------
smt88
I think you'll be OK if you can manage your Google search results to hide your
conviction as best you can. Many small companies will limit their "background
check" to Googling your name.

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anondaway
In short no. I make over 200k base.

I was in the same boat but with worse drug charges. Very few startups will do
background checks and after 7yrs an employment background check in california
legally cant show convictions before then anyways.

Its not like you killed or raped someone.

Plus, dont pay lip service to the thought police. You ingested a drug and
theres nothing wrong with that. Lie to the judge and say you're sorry if you
must but they are in the wrong not you.

~~~
ConvictDev
This gives me hope. I realize you don't want to share personal information,
but assuming you do have felonies (or even if you don't), how did you get into
a position of making 200k base? Are you working for a small or larger company?
I'm also assuming you're in SV. Once I finish school (I live in the Midwest) I
plan on moving to the northwest or SV. Or really wherever I have the best
chances with.

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fedcba98765
\- Move to California where everyone is on something. Including the police and
judge. \- Try applying to Apple. Steve Jobs is quote for saying everyone
should try lsd \- build a cool side project so any company who passes is
obviously denying you a job based on your criminal record. Aka discrimination.
Take the fuckers to court and own the company at the end of the day

~~~
RightMillennial
Steve Jobs saying everyone should try LSD is not the same as actually getting
a felony for illegal drug possession.

Honest question: Is it actually illegal to discriminate in the hiring process
based on criminal record? Especially if it's a felony?

~~~
mchannon
A lot of misinformation on here.

The short answer is it depends on where you live. Many states and localities,
particularly in California, have enacted "ban the box" laws. ("the box" in
this particular case is a box you must check if you have been convicted of any
crime). The rationale behind these laws is that ex-cons who are potentially
productive members of society don't need to keep getting punished after they
served their time.

Can you discriminate against someone for having a criminal record? Yes, but if
there's enough of a paper trail, and you're in one of these localities, they
can sue you under these laws. Most of these laws have exceptions for, say, sex
offenders applying at daycares, or check fraudsters applying at banks, but the
decision has to be appropriately documented.

SF and LA are pushing the laws even harder. They've recognized that ex-cons
who can't find decent work will just end up burdening the system further by
reoffending, rather than paying taxes and working. If they're square with the
house, the house must be square with them.

~~~
dragonwriter
"Ban the box" laws do _not_ prohibit consideration of criminal record in
hiring, it only prohibits the question in initial application and delays
background check until later in the hiring process, to discourage it's use as
a blanket filter before other candidate qualifications are known.

A handful of local jurisdictions have adopted additional restrictions on use
of criminal background in hiring beyond "ban the box"—so-called "fair chance
in hiring" laws—but none of them go so far as to prohibit use of criminal
history as a factor in employment.

------
bbcbasic
I don't know the answer but I'll say good luck, and the "lemonade from the
lemons" might be to just start your own business / startup / freelance from
the beginning and enjoy never having a boss or a scrum meeting.

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tmaly
I had a roommate in college that served time for a crime. He was only able to
get jobs as a short order cook or as a roofer.

But given the resources to start your own company, even if it is bootstrapped,
I think you have more options today than he did back them.

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tabeth
The short answer is: if you're a minority, yes. If you're white, no. Either
way your potential will be harmed, but like many things, this can be overcome
as well. You'll have to be probably way above average to overcome the
"gravity" that will hold you back as a felon. After that I'd say there will be
no more barriers, sans management positions.

~~~
Spooky23
That's an incredibly ignorant statement.

~~~
tabeth
Really?

This is common knowledge. Just go read the book -- Marked: Race, Crime and
Finding Work in an Era of Mass Incarceration.

Why pretend like being black isn't a severe disadvantage in terms of almost
every metric you can think of? Failing to acknowledge reality just perpetuates
inequity.

Sorry, but I'm not sugar coating reality for felons, white or black. People
saying "you'll be fine" are just lying, full-stop. You will _not_ be fine. You
_may_ be able to succeed, as many ex-felons have (which is really just
survivorship bias as many felons stop looking for work all together), but your
success will pale in comparison compared to the alternate self where you were
not a felon. The discrimination against felons in the United States is
borderline a human rights violation.

I wonder how many people in this thread have actually talked to felons who are
looking for a job.

\-
[http://thecrimereport.s3.amazonaws.com/2/fb/e/2362/criminal_...](http://thecrimereport.s3.amazonaws.com/2/fb/e/2362/criminal_stigma_race_crime_and_unemployment.pdf)

\- [https://thinkprogress.org/a-black-college-student-has-the-
sa...](https://thinkprogress.org/a-black-college-student-has-the-same-chances-
of-getting-a-job-as-a-white-high-school-dropout-b7639607fdf1#.sm40skwnr)

\- [https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2011/dec/15/study-
shows...](https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2011/dec/15/study-shows-ex-
offenders-have-greatly-reduced-employment-rates/)

In any case, if you have evidence suggesting that a felony doesn't
ridiculously reduce your employment prospects and earning potential (among
other things), I'd love to see it.

~~~
ConvictDev
This sucks to hear, but probably true. Meeting me in person, never would you
ever consider that I've been in any trouble with the law at all. Knowing that
the rest of my life could very well be an immense struggle is a pretty shitty
feeling.. but I need to hear it.

~~~
tabeth
I'm sorry about your situation, but I think the people telling you "it'll be
fine" are creating a reality you're not going to see. That being said, you can
still see success in your career (with tech, primarily) that exceed most non-
felon people in the United States in terms of wages. However, when you get to
this point, you'll realize that you would've succeeded even more had you not
been a felon. Anyway, I digress.

Some notes from talking to hiring managers at my company:

1\. I suspect HR just passes on felons directly during the application phase.
What this means for you is that you need to bypass this. So if you pursue
tech, networking is going to become super crucial for you.

2\. Something like crime would prove to be a tie-breaker if things are hard to
judge. Given the lack of objectivity during tech interviews, this will put you
at a disadvantage. In order to get your foot in the door, I would try to a
"big fish in a small pond." Meaning, apply at smaller companies, non-profits,
etc. Places where tech isn't the primary focus and show value.

3\. I assume you've seen this site [1]. I was reading an article a long time
ago and saw it referenced. Hopefully it can be of use to you.

4\. What I would _strongly_ recommend is just becoming as good as you can,
building your network as indicated in (1) and just contract and freelance. You
know much better than I do. The discrimination against you for being a felon
(even if it's non-violent) is offensive.

[1] [https://exoffenders.net/](https://exoffenders.net/)

~~~
ConvictDev
I see what you're saying. I'm hoping and praying for a deal where I don't get
the convictions at all. That would quiet all my worries. It's a definite
chance, but I'm planning for the worst. I will definitely take into account
everything you said. Still, I have a slimmer of hope that over time, when the
charges (or convictions) are 7-10+ years old, and depending on where I'm
living at the time, I could see just as much success as anyone else, felon or
not. Surely if a guy has very strong technical skills, great people skills,
and valuable connections, the convictions could become a non-issue over time
since he is valuable otherwise. But, we will see. Thanks for your advice :).

~~~
Spooky23
Hopefully you have a good attorney.

Make sure to demonstrate that you have ties to the community. Get letters from
friends, teachers, relatives, coworkers, etc tonget in front of the judge and
prosecutor.

You sound like someone who got caught up in something. Show that regret and
accept responsibility. I haven't been through this, but I know people who
have... good luck.

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hijinks
just be honest if you do get a felony if asked about it. If you lie and they
do a background check and find it then that's an auto-no.

To be honest half of SV is on something or the other. So drug use / arrest for
it for a small amount shouldn't be a big issue

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akulbe
We should talk. My info is in my profile.

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sjg007
get a lawyer and get the charges reduced to misdemeanors.

