
College Is A Waste. Replace It With Y Combinator - corlapa
http://mixergy.com/college-waste-time-money-solution/
======
satyajit
Preaching 'College is a waste of time' and dropping out of college makes you a
Facebook founder, isn't healthy! If you are studying Computer Science, you
need to learn Artificial Intelligence or Architecture design, you cannot say
it has no relevance to the industry. It does, and it helps to shape up a young
mind to look at the BIG picture. YCombi is great, but how can you replace that
for College education? Its narrow in scope.

~~~
simplify
I'm a 4th year CS major. During the second year, I seriously reconsidered
changing majors. I felt CS "wasn't enough programming", and therefore not
relevant to my future.

However, I stuck to it. It's only recently that I've discovered that all that
set theory, automata theory, and architecture theory has actually made me a
much better programmer than I would have been otherwise.

On the other hand, a CS major alone will not make you a good programmer. You
must also program in your spare time, continuously, constantly learning,
whether it be work or personal projects.

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ErrantX
> The truth is that college is one big party

I believe 100% this is THE most important part of college/university level
education. The education part is minor because if you have a subject interest
it will come fairly naturally (I do think if you have to force knowledge in
there is no point trying).

Partying is socialising, building a circle of friends/associates and generally
learning how humanity interacts. Indeed the education is partly just a way to
validate the lifestyle to later employees (4 years dossing vs. 4 years "at
college", right? :)).

Were I to have gone straight from school into the real world I would have
failed and had no support network to catch me.

Now yes I do see what he means about letting people loose on real projects.
BUT there just isnt enough incubator work to go around - and at the end of the
day you do need some mundane background classes to get you started. The higher
education model is broken, I agree, but scrapping it would be bad. Let people
develop their social construct and let off steam - then make them useful :)

~~~
DanielBMarkham
As somebody who attended college off and on, and in my 20s instead of right
out of high school, I missed out on this. I think you're on to something
there, ErrantX.

I've been a fan of some required national service for some of these same
reasons. I think not only you, but society as a whole benefits when young
people are put together and form support groups as part of starting off. It
should be encouraged more.

~~~
dantheman
Required National Service is a horrible idea, for a myriad of reasons -- #1 of
which is that it's slavery. Notice how whenever anyone talks about national
service, it's always aimed at the politically naive (children, and young
adults). We don't see required national service for 35 year olds, or 60 year
olds.

Now supporting groups for young people to tackle is interesting problems
(where they develop character and lasting relationships) is commendable, as
long as its voluntary and not looking for a handout.

~~~
ErrantX
Is there a middle ground? So for example I would be a fan of young people who
left school and stay on the dole for several years (say 2 years) being made to
do some form of service (maybe not military). It would certainly give them a
boost IMO.

~~~
dantheman
I don't understand why you want young people to stay on the dole for 2 years?
Shouldn't they being doing something productive? I think that the constant age
segregation throughout school and college is actually a major hindrance to
most people. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve, there are already
programs for people that want structure (college, peace corps, military,
volunteer work, etc).. I'd personally prefer to have them do something that
delivers value, than doing something that makes them feel good but is
ultimately wasteful. I also think its wrong to take money from others to
subsidize programs that aren't available to them; think of the minimum wage
worker whose taxes help send others to college while they're stuck trying to
scrape by.

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tralfam
College is not a waste if you want a great education. Where else can you
interact with and be taught from the world's best in nearly any course of
study? In college you get a mind opening view of what any one subject has to
offer, rather than a narrow view driven by a purpose for learning that
material. That broad exposure translates to being a more effective thinker and
problem solver.

And to counter a few more of his points: 1) The fundamentals don't change
every four months. 2) Lectures can be dry, but it doesn't mean you don't learn
from them. And you DO get to put it into practice when you have labs or
personal projects (often inspired by the new material you learned).

When I read that "many students" would do better as entrepreneurs out of high
school, I take that as some significant amount of high school graduates. The
vast majority of entering freshman really need the time and environment a
university offers to develop their skills and passions (ie. figure out what
they want to do and what they're good at.).

I'd be afraid that the students who would do the best without college are the
students we need most to pursue educations in engineering and sciences. It
would be unfortunate if they spent their resources starting a company which
likely wouldn't succeed instead of getting an education that would bear better
fruit down the road.

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proee
Maybe rephrase "College Is a Waste for __fill_in_the_blank__ Majors"

Is college a waste for Doctors & Lawyers? Do you want a doctor to learn his
trade on-the-job?

College is a big waste for a lot of majors, but certainly not in general...

~~~
bokonist
Doctors learn medicine in medical school. College is just wasting time jumping
through hoops.

As for law, a friend who recently graduated from law school said, "We would
spend all semester paying to hear our professors who just liked to hear
themselves talk. Then we would spend our summers interning and get paid to
learn useful skills."

~~~
fatdog789
Doctors learn the prerequisites to the stuff they learn in Medical school:
chemistry, biology, all that other science.

Lawyers learn the law in law school. We do not actually need to go to college
for anything, since the law does not rely on any prerequisite knowledge,
except maybe (American) political history and intro-level macroeconomics.

------
pg
I would not advocate this myself. The advantages of college are not measured
only in earnings. And even if they were, YC would only be suitable for a small
percentage of students, because only a small percentage have the temperament
to start a startup.

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edw519
"It creates corporate drones"

There are plenty of ways of going to college without assuming a lifetime of
debt. But no one is going to bring you a bunch of money. It's up to you to
find it. See, you learned something from college before you even matriculated.

"What it teaches is out of date by the time students graduate"

In Current Events class, maybe. In classics, sciences, history, etc., etc.,
etc., hardly.

"It doesn’t teach the way people learn"

Maybe. Maybe not. What is _does_ do is present enough options so that someone
who _wants_ to learn will find a way.

"Four years of information is too much to retain"

If you're going to college to learn "four years of information", maybe you
shouldn't go. OTOH, if you're going to discover yourself, expand your
horizons, learn how to learn, and build a foundation for a better life, who
cares how much "information" you remember?

"Its promise is a hoax"

Anyone lazy enough to go to college and expect the world on a silver platter
deserves whatever they get.

"The truth is that college is one big party"

Any your complaint is...?

~~~
apsec112
"There are plenty of ways of going to college without assuming a lifetime of
debt. But no one is going to bring you a bunch of money. It's up to you to
find it."

I am, currently, going to college. I have quite a bit of debt ($8K) and expect
to get about double that by the time I'm finished. If you can show me a way to
pay for college without debt, and I actually get the money, I will pay you $25
for every $100 I receive. So, if you can show me a way to get $200,000 for
college (which I would have to come up with, somehow, if I weren't fortunate
enough to get some scholarship money), you would get $50,000. If you can show
me a way to get $20,000 to pay off my current and future debt, you'll get
$5,000.

I can predict in advance, with fairly high probability (although I would
obviously be delighted to be proven wrong), that you won't be able to come up
with any way for me to get that sort of money, even given that you probably
have more experience than I do, and even given an immediate large financial
incentive. The reason why is obvious: $200,000, or even $20,000, is a
_crapton_ of money, especially when you're young, have no to little experience
and are working hard as a full-time student. Most _adults_ \- people who have
had full-time jobs for ten or twenty or thirty years- pay for items that cost
that much on credit, because they _can't_ afford it otherwise, even though
they get socked with finance charges when they borrow.

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seiji
We are not the mixergy RSS feed. Everything created there doesn't have to show
up here [make up your own comments about the community expanding and
contentless articles appearing with high upvote counts here].

Also, you're not helping your point: "I bet you that a collage graduate learns
more in her first year on the job than she does in all four years in college."

Interestingly though, a "collage graduate" is a good thing. A good university
experience will give you exposure to a bunch of a different areas. Hopefully
you'll become well-rounded. Then you can start connecting multiple disciplines
together in unique ways not many people think to cross-pollinate.

~~~
falsestprophet
I think the grandstanding fist pump should disqualify mixergy from Hacker News
altogether.

------
ABrandt
I'm a student who is halfway done with a degree in Entrepreneurship. I often
ask myself what the hell I'm doing, and the answer is simple--society says I
have to. Now, I realize its all one big hoax, but I've stuck with it because
of the relationships I have built thus far. With that having been said, I
would happily give my $30,000/year in student loans to an incubator program
that could actually get me started. Maybe Y Combinator needs to take a more
"University" approach and allow students to pay for the education they
provide.

~~~
JimmyL
Degree in Entrepreneurship? I've not heard of this, and (off the bat) it seems
like it might be one huge contradiction, or a way for a school to bundle a
bunch of pre-existing courses together into something "new and innovative"
that they can advertise.

Can you discuss your program a bit?

~~~
ABrandt
Like jasonlbaptiste explained, it really is a hodge-podge of offerings with a
heavy emphasis on management and administration. At Bradley University (my
school), they have not completely just "bundled a bunch of pre-existing
courses together." Most of my classes have been tailored to fit the needs of
start-ups (ie. instead of Cost Accounting, I took Advanced Entrepreneurial
Accounting).

All in all, I don't feel that the program is a total bust. Thanks to an
endowment from an alumni, I have a free subscription to magazines such as Inc.
and Small Business, an all-inclusive trip to an Entrepreneurship conference
once a year, and access to a center for entrepreneurship that provides
counseling and training from experienced professionals. If anything, my degree
provides me resources similar to what is offered at YC (without the prestige,
quality, and seed funding).

------
kynikos
If you're ambitious, motivated, and skilled technically, college might be a
waste?

I've yet to meet anyone who wholly discounts their college experience, even if
they're advocates of alternative, experiential learning (like YC.)

You don't go to college for academic credentials. You go to college to meet
people and learn about yourself.

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Emore
Personally I'm getting tired of all this college bashing. Nowhere else can the
most people build up the biggest contacts' network, greatest knowledge and the
best personal development for the shortest amount of time. Sure thing, there's
always the exceptions proving the rule. This is probably the most evident
within comsci.

As a reply to the article, I'd say the best way to transform "waste" into
"worth" is simply to get rid of the huge tuitions with maintained quality.
Though, I realize this is probably next to impossible for the US. However, it
works fine in other countries.

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jasonlbaptiste
College is a weird beast. I stopped out to work on Publictivity/move to the
Valley and now I'm back in school finishing at night. It still has no value to
me in the real world. I'm a CIS major, and even though the "formal education"
is nice, it just complicates things. The way students are taught to do
database design + code makes me fully understand why most software sucks.

I don't think we could ever just get rid of college, but I think we need
alternatives that aren't looked upon as some "rogue option". People like
doctors and lawyers need formal schooling. There will always be corporate
drones, but hopefully less will emerge over time. I am glad to see more and
more are pursuing things outside of what the normal college path might
present.

There's also the social issue, which is an important part of college. It
forces you to meet other people. That's great for spurring ideas or even
starting a company. My first "company" was with a bunch of people I met while
in college. Everyone is now off doing their own startup after learning some of
the ropes together. So, whatever the alternatives are to college, make sure
you find a way to keep yourself social. It could be meetups, super happy dev
houses, coworking,etc. Just don't isolate yourself.

//End Rambling

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johnnybgoode
A lot of people are missing the point of the anti-college position.

Imagine a car which gets 8 MPG and breaks down every day. Now, you know this
car sucks, so you criticize it constantly. But then the car manufacturer hits
back: "Cars are necessary. Cars help you get places faster. Cars are
comfortable and private."

Of course, you know all this. You're not opposed to the idea of using a
vehicle for fast transportation; you're just opposed to what passes for a car
today.

And so it is with college. I oppose the standard model for universities which
prevails in today's world (largely due to state support): four years, classes,
lectures, A-F grades, rigid structure, and so on.

I do NOT oppose learning, education, networking, socializing, relaxing, and
having fun. In fact, I think all of those things can be done better with a
radically different school system. So please don't keep telling me college
provides all this. Some of us do think today's colleges do _such a bad job_
that you're better off not going even if you miss out on some things. But that
doesn't mean we actually want everyone to miss out on these experiences _as an
ideal_.

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otto
These posts come up every few months, more often than not written by people
that did not go to college.

"Students today leave school with so much debt" I finished school debt-free. I
saved up for school and applied for as many scholarships as I could. Many
employers will even give you signing bonuses to help pay off student loans.

"What it teaches is out of date by the time students graduate" College is not
a tech school. Going to college is more about learning how to learn and
meeting people. If you really want to go places in your field of study you
spend lots of time out of class exploring new ideas, and if this is the case
you will likely be ahead of the curve through most of your life.

"People learn by doing, not by sitting in a class and being lectured to."
Yeah. Most science and engineering classes are heavily lab and project based.

"Four years of information is too much to retain" Perhaps for some. However
those same people can easily review and be back up to speed.

"The truth is that college is one big party" College is what you make of it.

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markwweaver
>What it teaches is out of date by the time students graduate

Subjects like math and algorithms (some of the most useful classes I took) do
not go out of date by the time you graduate. I may have to learn a new
algorithm later in life, but the building blocks that I got in the class are
often necessary.

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TallGuyShort
I agree completely - every single one of his points is something I've
experienced personally, causing no end of frustration. I felt like I needed a
degree because the rest of the world puts so much emphasis on it, but I
personally gained very little from it. I know this topic has been discussed a
million and one times on here - but I wish this was a much more public issue
than it already is.

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dbrush
This article reminds me that I've never even been asked if I graduated high
school. Not having a college education has never been a problem for me either.

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hariis
College experience is good and valuable but the mode of instruction could be
improved for a lot of the classes by injecting a dose of practical, hands-on
experience like the "y-combinator's incubator model", may be like 1 semester
of class and the 1 semester of project work.

------
leecho0
Well, I'm still in school kinda and I'm still in the planning stages of my
startup, but I feel that I learned a lot of stuff in college that I really
wouldn't have touched otherwise. I dunno how practical it is in the "real
world," but I thought my time/ money was worth it.

Compilers and languages -- Right now I've got ideas on how to create a new and
better programming language (hopefully that will be the 100-year language =P)
which will have stuff from lisp, prolog, C++, Java, and first order logic.
honestly, there would be no way that I would try to learn lisp by myself, much
less understand the elegance of lambda calculus. I wouldn't know where to
start thinking about other complex things like knowledge representation and
complexity related to it.

Linux / vim / eclipse / makefile -- I picked up how to use a lot of tools in
college, when some other friends also used it. It would have really bad if I
had to learn all of those without being able to call someone up and ask for
help.

networking -- I've done some stuff outside of school for a year that had
nothing to do with CS. I really haven't met so many "simple" people before...
not that there's anything wrong with that, but I really do not think of them
to do interesting projects with. Not all the people I knew from college was a
CS major, but I can see myself working with a lot of them for various
projects.

Machine learning -- This was one of those things that I was interested in, but
I can't see myself learning about it all by myself. I took a class about it
for audit, then took it again a few years later. It really makes a difference
to be pushed to do the work. And even though I forgot about a lot of the
details, I don't think it would be too hard to re-learn about random forest,
bayesian networks, reinforcement learning, etc.

It seems to me that there are a lot of software companies out there that do
some stuff that are pretty heavy on the theory side. Google's pagerank, spam
filters, antivirus software, etc. I'll bet those kinda jobs are better than a
"4-year-experience-with-java" job.

I'm also not too sure about the "replacing college with an incubator" thing...
college is something you gotta do, doing a startup is supposed to be a risky
thing. I've done a year long senior project that I just totally blew off
because it was a "class project". People have done much more stuff in three
months than what I did that year. If people see the startup incubator as
something that's required, i don't think it would work out as well. But I
think it would have been helpful if there were more incubators that were
closely tied with the school, so that it wouldn't seem like such a far-fetched
idea to do a startup.

btw, those humanity classes really are a total waste of time.

------
Mommaboy
Something you might learn in college: 'replace' has a 'p' in it.

~~~
abyssknight
I hate to chime in on an obvious troll, but I have to admit I laughed when I
read the title.

The thing about college is that, for some of us, it teaches us to learn. Much
like the IB program I attended in highschool, the Computer Science program in
college forced me to learn how to learn.

It seems silly thinking about it, but looking back I remember a great deal of
my peers in the lower level, general knowledge courses who complained about
writing two page papers on something they'd just discussed in class. This
should not be difficult. A 5-6 page paper was a single night ordeal for me,
and a 2 pager just seemed like a silly thing to worry about. For me, it was a
walk in the park because I had already learned to write from my time in IB,
and before that in the honors middle-school program.

A trend? Yep.

So after college when I took a salaried job writing ColdFusion, a language I
had barely even heard of, I picked it up quickly. Of course, that was thanks
to having to learn a ton of languages, constructs, and their memory layouts in
college. I had _learned_ how to _learn_ , just like highschool taught me to
question things and middle school taught me to write (and enjoy writing).

That said, there is definitely nothing that will ever replace real-world
experience. However, that coupled with a college education might just save you
from picking up a bunch of bad habits and give you that much more of an edge
in both life, and your career.

 _Disclaimer: All mispellings and terribly grammar are to be politely
discarded lest the trolls be fed. ;)_

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david927
YCombinator is a waste; replace it with Vegas.

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ryanvm
Don't you guys ever get tired of jerking off about YC?

