
Single dose of psilocybin eased cancer patients' anxiety, depression for years - neom
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/single-dose-psychedelic-drug-eased-cancer-patients-anxiety-depression-years-n1123451
======
Moodles
I’ve taken mushrooms quite a few times. Sometimes, it’s just been mild and
giggling at colors and nature. Pleasant, but just kind of a fun drug.

With a moderate dose, you tend to be introspective and consider your own life
and relationships in different ways. There’s usually a lesson at the end.

With higher doses, it’s sometimes been just extremely confusing and not at all
fun, to the extent that I’d forget my own name or what I’ve taken and
basically just all memories. It’s very frustrating to be in that state,
constantly trying not to fly away but not able to ground yourself. It’s a
little disturbing, but not horrific. I think the reason for this is that I am
afraid to lose my ego/die and I would actually benefit from a slightly higher
dose to blast it away...

With really high doses though, it’s been a truly beautiful, enlightening
experience. I still think of it sometimes. It’s very difficult to really
explain in words, but it feels like kind of extreme empathy with all life.
Buddhists would call it going egoless. I just felt very at peace: we all live,
we all die, and it’s all okay. I’m not particularly religious or spiritual at
all but that experience really changed me. It feels like life is in all these
different forms, and you just happen to be one variation of it, but you could
easily be any other living thing, so you just feel love and empathy for all
life. And you know it’s finite and you’re not afraid of death. I would still
attempt to avoid death, but I was just at peace with it if it was inevitable.
Also, when you come back to reality you’re utterly, utterly convinced that
you’ve experienced something profound, possibly, despite all your rationality,
there’s a message form god inside this mushroom. It’s almost like the mushroom
is laughing at you: “good luck going back to your normal life now.” You’re
left with “wow? That was that?!” It’s annoying honestly, because I’m not
religious at all and I know it sounds crazy to even say that out loud. Of
course, that feeling does slowly fade away like a distance dream or memory.

A great story it reminds me of is “The Egg” by Andy Weir:

[http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html](http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html)

~~~
Bartweiss
This ties nicely into the two questions I have about the article.

First, have you seen clear, lasting changes in anxiety and depression? If the
single-dose effect for cancer patients really is this strong, it seems like
everyone who messed with mushrooms once in college should be 'treated' also.

Second, how well do those feelings of contentment stick around? The stories I
hear of enlightenment on mushrooms, DMT, any other "entheogen" all have the
element you describe of being unable to grasp the discovery after the trip,
and once it's in hindsight I can imagine that memory being anywhere from
comforting to aggravatingly out-of-reach.

~~~
Moodles
> First, have you seen clear, lasting changes in anxiety and depression? If
> the single-dose effect for cancer patients really is this strong, it seems
> like everyone who messed with mushrooms once in college should be 'treated'
> also.

I think mushrooms can open the door, but you need to use them as a catalyst to
take action in your day-to-day life to actually have lasting change. I've
still been an asshole occasionally since taking mushrooms. Ultimately you're
responsible for your own change, but mushrooms can help you want to change.

> Second, how well do those feelings of contentment stick around? The stories
> I hear of enlightenment on mushrooms, DMT, any other "entheogen" all have
> the element you describe of being unable to grasp the discovery after the
> trip, and once it's in hindsight I can imagine that memory being anywhere
> from comforting to aggravatingly out-of-reach.

I've had an egoless state for a couple hours or so afterwards, and then maybe
for a couple days afterwards I'm generally more relaxed and happy: maybe I'll
smile more and say hello to people I barely talk to. But the feeling fades
after that. Lasting change happens if you really take the lesson to heart and
create change in your normal life.

------
the-alchemist
Some important details from the source:

\- "Eighty percent of the patients reported that their symptoms faded, and the
effects lasted six months, the 2016 study found. At the time, this long-
lasting effect was a landmark finding."

\- "The new study ... followed up with 15 of those patients nearly 5 years
later, and found that up to 80 percent were still experiencing significant
improvements in cancer-related depression and anxiety. Nearly all of the
participants attributed their positive life changes to the psychedelic-
assisted therapy."

\- "Next, he said, researchers need to conduct studies looking at brain scans
taken before and after people are given the psychedelics, and also look for
biomarkers that could indicate changes in the body."

So this is a follow-up study. Do an experiment, check six months later, and
five years later.

Incredible, really. Forget the drug: we have scientifically figured out a
life-changing procedure for easing cancer patients' anxiety for _years_ with a
single dose. And it's super cheap!

The article also says they're going deep into the research, scanning brains
next. Hopefully we'll see results sooner than another five years. :-P

I think the more interesting news is that the government have even allowed
such an experiment. Anyone know where this research took place?

P.S. NBC's summary doesn't say (anyone have a sci-hub link to the original?)
whether (or how) they accounted for the difference in time. i.e., the world
was much different than it was five years ago, and people's anxiety changes
too.

~~~
hermosabeachbum
Many of the studies are being conducted at NYU and Johns Hopkins. You can find
studies at www.maps.org.

Disclosure: I am a participant in a double-blind study at NYU that is
researching the use of psilocybin for alcohol use disorder. The results
(wanting you drink less) have been incredible. Life changing. The team at NYU
is amazing. This is not just taking medicine. It is done with therapy,
psychiatrists who are present during sessions (“sitters”) and a heavy focus on
set, setting and integration.

------
prostheticvamp
1) this study only had a six month follow up. Where did the headline pull five
years’ from?

2) there was no placebo group, just low dose and high dose. The investigators
called low dose “placebo like,” which anyone familiar with microdosing knows
is bullshit.

3) the study size is still fucking tiny. With less than 30 subjects per arm,
you can’t take the central limit theorem for granted. With 566 patients
screened and 51 accepted, I’m particularly leery - especially since they
offloaded all discussion of their exclusion criteria to a supplement no one
ever looks at.

4) They used a crossover study. What this means is, as per their methods:

Patient enrolled at week 0. Got low dose (or high dose) at week 4, on average.
Got the other dose (high, if the first was low) at week 9. Follow up with
outcome measures at week 24.

Crossovers are used to amplify your sample size IFF the effect of the drug is
expected to be significantly shorter than the time period between
administrations.

In this case, that’s not true: NO previous research suggests that the mood
effects of shrooms last significantly <4 weeks. And they know that, which is
why their follow up was at 6 months.

In short, this study wasn’t “high dose shrooms show improvement in mood for
six months, as shown by comparison to placebo.”

It wasn’t even “high dose shrooms show greater improvement in mood at six
months than low dose shrooms”.

It’s “people that take high dose shrooms and then low dose shrooms show better
mood in a few months than people that take low dose shrooms and then high dose
shrooms, with statistically invalid tests, and no placebo to show that this
wasn’t just baseline improvement because, hey, people do cope over time.”

Shit study. Shit shit absolute bullshit.

Edit: My bad. I was looking at the original crap study. Not the 5 year follow
up of the crap study. Old crap still crap.

~~~
oarabbus_
>2) there was no placebo group, just low dose and high dose. The investigators
called low dose “placebo like,” which anyone familiar with microdosing knows
is bullshit.

Care to elaborate? Microdoses are supposed to be below the active threshold.

~~~
prostheticvamp
Microdosing is beneath the hallucinogenic dose range, but not below the range
of having any effect at all - eg, Prochazkova 2018, Anderson 2019 (both of the
2019 Anderson pubs).

I’m not saying the microdosing studies are well done, but they surely prohibit
taking for granted that microdosing is a placebo. What little evidence there
is tilts away from that.

~~~
oarabbus_
>but they surely prohibit taking for granted that microdosing is a placebo.
What little evidence there is tilts away from that.

No, I don't believe that's true. In fact, this meta study:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6364961/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6364961/)

actually explicitly mentions that the body of research doesn't support your
claim about microdosing and placebo.

------
supernintendo
It really is a miracle drug when taken in microdoses (and a complete mind fuck
in larger doses) but be careful. If you have any trauma in your past that
you’ve pushed down to be dealt with later, psilocybin will dig all of that
right back to the surface. I love it.

~~~
thrwaway69
I wonder where/how you can get it. Are there any medical tests going on that
you can participate in?

~~~
Starkus
So, not a lawyer but I'll give some non lawyer advice.

You can buy spores online because the active psilocybin is not in them. They
are mushroom spores (it's all so stupid to make illegal, but that's another
debate)

You can grow them very easily in spare space. You grow the mycelium in a jar
with brown rice flour and vermiculite, there comes a point where you expose
the jar to some light to help stimulate growth. Like any natural growing
mushroom. Then you put them in a container that remains humid, and again light
helps them grow as theyll grow towards it. Think of a mushroom growing under a
leaf off rotting tree bark in the forest, same concept.

They're decriminalized where I am (denver) and easy to find. Not legal to grow
and cultivate, but do it for personal use and noone is going to bother you.
Start selling or distributing, yeah, no need for that. Dont do that, federal
law is still backwards and you can technically get in some trouble.

~~~
bnjms
Unless you know someone who deals this is the right answer. To add to this you
can get spore syringes, and sometimes kits, from smoke shops. You may have to
ask around and visit a few shops. Directions are easily found online.

~~~
Velofellow
You are totally right, but like anything illicit, Caveat Emptor... Had a
former roommate who grew magic mushrooms from a spore syringe. She was
convinced they were of good quality, but she was growing them in a terrarium
on the floor in a shared room with a large pet rabbit. Cleanliness and Hygiene
were sorely missing. I'm not a mycologist, but even my untrained eye knew
something was way off with the mushrooms she was growing. She did not end up
selling them, but took her lots of convincing not too.

Moral? The closer you can get to know those growing / harvesting the better.
I've always had good luck through my connections for herb. I imagine in
recreational 420 states, it's harder to ask the dispensary where to get Magic
Mushrooms though.

------
root_axis
I'm not a biologist, but a biologist friend of mine suggested that these
results are specious because it is impossible to double-blind test the effects
of psychedelic drugs. Does such skepticism have any merit?

~~~
fredophile
We also don't do double blind tests for surgeries. We must have an accepted
process for determining if a particular type of surgery is effective for
various conditions. Applying the same standard here would make sense.

~~~
samatman
Although maybe we should.

I would love to find this study again, so far, no luck: someone decided to
test an 'active placebo' for ACL surgery, of making four incisions in the
usual places, but not actually scraping away at the ligament. It was
comparably effective as the actual surgery.

This left me thinking that stimulating the immune system by causing trauma
might be an underutilized medical technique.

------
macawfish
I've experienced this firsthand. It reminds you of who you are in a deep,
basic way.

~~~
knowa42
Does it remind you of who you are on a personal level, i.e. core values,
aspirations, and what makes you happy? Or does it just remind you of your
humanity, thus that you're connected to billions of other people through that
alone?

~~~
ericmcer
Lower doses are more about the former, lots of introspection and viewing my
life from an altered state.

Higher doses are all about the latter, a lot more ego death and huge weighty
difficult to describe type emotions.

------
orasis
If interested in this topic, read “How to Change Your Mind” by Michael Pollan.

~~~
martythemaniak
Or the classic Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley. More of a long essay and
available free!

[https://maps.org/images/pdf/books/HuxleyA1954TheDoorsOfPerce...](https://maps.org/images/pdf/books/HuxleyA1954TheDoorsOfPerception.pdf)

~~~
pmoriarty
Also see Huxley's _Island_ [1], his model of a utopia, where psychedelics are
used for initiation. Huxley himself considered it his greatest work.

[1] - [https://doorofperception.com/wp-
content/uploads/Aldous_Huxle...](https://doorofperception.com/wp-
content/uploads/Aldous_Huxley-Island.pdf)

------
dukha
That's not so surprising, given, that psilocybin dissolves ego almost
completely even at standard recreational dosage.

We usually associate ourselves with ego and death is tightly linked with
losing of ourselves.

But after you experience ego death once, you quickly realize that you're no
longer afraid of death because there are no one who dies.

~~~
galangalalgol
What are the legalities surrounding it? TX of all places has legalized thc
free hemp agriculture. Shrooms seem to be the next wave of legalization an in
some ways it seems like it is already partly legal. Spores at least are legal.

~~~
tinus_hn
How is the legalization of a plant that explicitly cannot be used as a
recreational drug related to the legalization of a mushroom which can be?

~~~
galangalalgol
The cbd from hemp is used medicinally as are these shrooms. The recreational
use is a complicating factor, but medicinal thc use paved the way fo
recreational legality as well. Seeing a state as conservative as TX taking
even a tiny step in that direction is surprising. I'm not sure how I feel
about it all. Alcohol use is up, THC legalized, nictone use is down. We are
legalizing and using soma, things that make us lazy, content and compliant.
Shrooms may or may not fall into that category. It might make people "woke".

------
Ansil849
The recent documentary Fantastic Fungi [1] covers psilocybin patients as well
(alongside other fun fungi facts), worth a watch, IMHO.

[1] [https://fantasticfungi.com/](https://fantasticfungi.com/)

------
rhcom2
The doses: \- low dose (1 or 3 mg/70 kg) vs. a high dose (22 or 30 mg/70 kg)

Also they excluded people using benzodiazepines, SSRIs and MAOIs. I've taken
mushrooms while on SSRIs and the trip is usually severely dampened.

~~~
bloopernova
> excluded ... SSRIs

Well, crap. I imagine it will be a few more years yet before I'm able to take
a tiny dose. I'm a week in to taking Lexapro on top of Cymbalta, which I've
been taking for over a year, and I'm hoping I can get some good results. Or at
least even things out enough that I can tackle things enough to feel a little
better and less anxiety.

~~~
rhcom2
In my experience the hallucinogenic effects are diminished but for me at least
I still get a nice feeling of calm and well being. Usually the visuals are
limited to a "shimmery" effect on clouds and trees, sometimes with some color
but very mellow.

This is not medical advice. There are cases of serotonin syndrome from the
combination of SSRIs and mushrooms. Use caution.

~~~
bloopernova
Thank you. Especially for mentioning serotonin syndrome. I've had supposed
pain specialist doctors give me a half-dozen serotonin-affecting drugs, and
then get aggrieved and hurt when I ask about serotonin syndrome. I've had
something approaching it one night, and it was a terrible experience that I
never, ever want to repeat.

------
outime
For those suffering from similar problems and want to stay legal while giving
this a try, you can buy fresh truffles in the Netherlands and do it yourself.
For the first trip, it’s very recommended that you get a tripsitter. If you
want to try microdosing, it’s not necessary although it’s more of a long-term
thing so travelling to NL for that might not be very useful. There are other
ways to do this obviously.

The book by Michael Pollan, already suggested here, is a must read if you want
to convince yourself and give it a try.

I can also recommend r/microdosing and r/psychonauts.

------
hemantv
My experience after getting really high on cbd is I see two completely
infinite worlds.

One the universe which is ever expanding and one mind where number of
connection make it as big and complex as universe.

I never noticed this fact until I was high that all the universe complexity
exist in our own mind. It has infinitely many layers.

~~~
stallmanite
That is one heck of an atypical CBD experience! Sounds more like 5-MEO-DMT
territory. You’re doing something right man.

------
uptownfunk
Incredible medicinal substance from nature. Not for everyone, like all
medicines, but for those who it is suitable for, what a game changer. Have had
some of the most profound life changing realizations of my life while on
psilocybin.

------
thinkingemote
As a reminder like all medicines and psychotherapy, they really should be done
with and through a trained professional than on your own.

------
sedeki
For someone with psychological trauma in his/her past, is it worth the risk of
messing with one’s head?

I’m thinking about something like visiting a resort-like place (recommended
here; forgot its name) where they have experienced ”mediators” that help you,
and actual doctors.

~~~
tenaciousDaniel
There are conflicting reports about this. Some people with _latent_ mental
illnesses can have them triggered by psychedelics. But there are plenty of
people who anecdotally report being able to deal with past trauma through
them.

It's impossible to predict how you'd react, but it sounds like you're looking
in the right direction. Find a safe, professional place, and start small. You
definitely don't want to start with a high dosage.

~~~
samatman
This argument has never set well with me. It seems to be a case of affirming
the consequent: if you have latent mental illness, then psychedelics can
manifest it, _therefore_ , if psychedelics trigger a mental health crisis, it
must be because of latent mental illness.

I think it's quite possible, likely even, that psychedelics occasionally
trigger mental health crises, sometimes long-lasting ones, in individuals who
would not otherwise have experienced them.

They're also quite valuable, and that needs to be weighed against the risk.
Having guidance and starting small, is good advice.

------
pmoriarty
For those of you wanting to pick or grow your own mushrooms, I suggest
watching _Identifying North American Psilocybin Species_ by Alan
Rockefeller.[1] He's immensely knowledgeable on this subject, and covers some
interesting legal issues as well.

Also, keep an eye out for upcoming legislation on legalizing psilocybin and/or
mushrooms in your local area. Vote and put pressure on your politicians to
make this happen, if you believe it should.

To have the best, most constructive experience, I'd strongly recommend reading
_The Psychedelic Explorer 's Guide_ by James Fadiman.[2]

No brief summary can do this book or the subject of having a good trip
justice, but at the very least be sure to have an experienced person you like
and trust sit with you during the entire time you're on the substance, and try
to carefully prepare for the experience and don't just do it on a whim at a
party or a concert. Though such settings could work out, you will maximize
your chance of having a good experience by choosing a safe, quiet space, where
you won't be disturbed.

Be sure you don't have any other responsibilities for the day of the trip and
perhaps the day after as well. Eat lightly the day before and day of the trip.
Some people like to fast a bit, though make sure to stay hydrated. Have a
clear, specific intention for the trip, and try to take something you've
learned from the trip and make it a concrete part of your life afterwards.
Depending on what you want to get out of the experience, you might also want
to have some pictures of people you care about and maybe a rose to look at
near the peak of the trip. There's a lot more to be said about this, and I'd
really recommend you read the guide for more. _The Secret Chief Revealed_ ,
about an underground psychedelic therapist, is another great resource.[3]

If it is going to be your first time, make it really special. You'll never
have a first time with this substance again, and you really don't want to
squander the opportunity. Some people spend a lot of time later in life
chasing the magic of that first time, and it's never the same.

[1] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcL-7u80kjs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcL-7u80kjs)

[2] - [https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Explorers-Guide-
Therapeut...](https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Explorers-Guide-Therapeutic-
Journeys/dp/1594774021/)

[3] - [https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chief-Conversations-
Undergroun...](https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chief-Conversations-Underground-
Psychedelic/dp/0966001907/)

~~~
echlebek
If you pick wild mushrooms be careful. A lot of people eat these by mistake
and die.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galerina_marginata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galerina_marginata)

------
umc0der
is there a way to invest in psilocybin?

~~~
fourstar
Ah. Here we go. The tech vultures wanting to get their hands on everything and
commercialize it.

~~~
gimmeasandwich
You know you're on ycombinator, right? It seems perfectly natural to want to
commercialize something people want.

~~~
fourstar
Sure maybe today’s HN. Not the one I joined 12 years ago. When there were
_actual_ hackers.

~~~
dang
HN was Startup News before it was Hacker News. It has always had a strong
entrepreneurial orientation.

~~~
nicehat
There sure has been a shift though. You'd be just the guy to shed some light
on these changes.

For example, when did flagged comments become unreadable, rather than simply
folded up by default? I'd like to see the logic on that one, if any was given
at all.

Was there an algorithm change that lets popular stories under active
discussion on touchy subjects get disappeared with a few flags, or was that
here from the start too?

Are there any logs you can point me to that would reveal the scale of removed
stories over time?

~~~
dang
It's hard to know what specifically you're referring to, but to the extent
that I understand your questions, the answer is that things have worked that
way for many years, certainly before I started moderating in 2012.

There was no need to post all those sibling comments; I didn't reply sooner
because I simply hadn't seen this yet. That's one reason why the site
guidelines ask you to email hn@ycombinator.com instead of posting like this in
the threads.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
m3kw9
Yep, the worst thing about dying is the process, so this is a pretty big win
for those that works

------
Noos
I'm really skeptical of studies like this. There's a lot of motivated
reasoning in proving the medical benefits of recreational drugs to aid in
legalization; medical marijuana was one such example. And usually in threads
like this it's almost always users coming up with glowing conversion stories
of how LSD changed their life.

I don't like how HN has blind spots like these culturally. Just how Ritalin
was used for ADHD in children and the worries of overdiagnosis should really
make people skeptical about this, if just to make you think what the side
effects or problems were from something that is a useful cure.

~~~
magic_beans
Can you link me to a study that _doesn 't have_ a motivated reason for proving
something behind it?

------
WarOnPrivacy
Example #4,990,275 of an effective treatment denied to Americans, because we
bizarrely allow a police agency (DEA) to set national medical policy.

~~~
pastor_elm
Are they medically allowed anywhere?

~~~
tsukurimashou
medically I don't know but in the Netherlands you can buy magic truffles in
Smartshops the same way you can buy weed in coffeeshops.

------
Numberwang
How do you guys all seem to have these experiences? I'm in Europe and would
not have a clue how to test this.

------
oxfordmale
There is a clear survivor basis in this study...

------
burnJS
Side effects may include
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mmamania.com/platform/amp/2...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mmamania.com/platform/amp/2012/9/9/3306749/mma-
fighter-sentenced-50-years-prison-ripped-friends-heart-out-cooked-it)

