
Convore (YCW11) is reborn as Grove.io, a chat service for businesses - leahculver
http://gigaom.com/2012/01/10/convore-grove-io/
======
Skywing
I think the trick here is going to be who you decide to market to.

Right now, it looks like the target audience is really small, tech-savvy start
ups (most likely those start ups out in San Francisco that the grove.io team
can directly market to, etc). That's probably fine but it seems like a rather
small audience. So alright then, the audience is tech-savvy start ups located
anywhere. This might be tricky because now you have to convince the tech-savvy
people to quit hosting their own IRC server, or to add a new IRC server to
their list of servers that they already frequent. I already run my own
UnrealIRC daemon, on Linode, for $20/mo with however many users it can handle.
I have a logger bot that logs chat to a nice looking web page, and obviously
IRC supports channel access control out of the box. Plus, now I have a Linode
server to play on. So, I don't think I would do grove.io for my own start up.
So, then maybe an easier audience to market this to would be tech-savvy start
ups that are too busy to mess with hosting their own (probably a good portion
of them) or do not like the other free servers. They'd probably buy this, but
you have to wonder why they're not using IRC already (do they really want it
or need it?). You could try targeting non tech savvy start ups, but then you
have to figure out how to speak their language and explain why they need a
chat service when they already have email, or something. This is probably why
Campfire stayed away from making the IRC connection.

I have to admit that I feel like this is a bit like trying to sell ice to an
Eskimo, or whatever. Do start ups have this problem? I'm not knocking the
service. I'd love to be offering a service like that. Heck, I do offer an IRC
service but I just do not get paid for it. Perhaps I'm just jealous that I did
not attempt this type of service myself. :) I love the idea and best of luck!

~~~
ericabiz
"I already run my own UnrealIRC daemon, on Linode, for $20/mo with however
many users it can handle."

Then I would argue you're not the target market. I'm a tech company CEO. I
have WAY better things to do than set up an IRC server, even though my
background is Linux system administration. My employees (we have 8 people
currently; hiring #9) also have better things to do (like, you know, features
our customers want :)

So we use Hipchat. And Hipchat rocks. Everyone on our team loves it. (We
actually tried grove first, but it just wasn't mature enough for our needs--
Hipchat has Mac OS, Windows, web, Android, AND iPhone apps, and we're all on
different platforms, so that works out well.)

When you're paying developers $$$, you don't want them to be setting up IRC
servers. Better to use a Hipchat or a Grove.io and be up and running in 5
minutes with clients on every device. For us, it's well worth the few $ a
month to have one less thing to set up and maintain.

~~~
phzbOx
"When you're paying developers $$$, you don't want them to be setting up IRC
servers."

Fair enough but still if it takes 1 hour to set it up vs paying 50$*12. (But I
get your point, that's why I said I found it a bit risky in another post..
that's the developers mentality vs the CEO's one.)

~~~
antoncohen
I don't think you can realistically setup an IRC server in an hour, at least
not your first time, not with SSL, NickServ, ChanServ, etc. It will probably
take more than an hour just to pick an IRC server and find the documentation.
Almost all IRC servers were designed to run public IRC networks, each public
IRC network has forked and re-forked the original IRCd from 1988. They tend to
lack features that are expected of online services these days, e.g., user
accounts and access controls. You can usually set a server-wide password, and
channel keywords, but that's different than having individual usernames and
passwords, with individual access control to channels. So then you need a
NickServ and ChanServ, which are separate from the IRC daemon. Then the
logging bot, and the web archive of the logging, and access control to the web
archive. And a web client so you can easily invite first-timers into a
discussion. It's way more than an hours work. Then you are paying $20/month to
Linode, and someone has to maintain it with security updates, and backups, and
documentation on how to redo all the configuration. That's a lot of time when
you could just pay $50/month to Grove. $50/month is one regular coffee a day,
it's not much money.

~~~
phzbOx
I'm not saying that Grove is not a good idea (It is actually!), I'm just a
little afraid how the product targets a niche that are used to hack/configure
things themselves. And, don't forget that developers enjoy hacking or setting
up these kinds of server.

But yeah, I do agree with you that from a CEO point of view, it's not worth to
waste _time_ on this as there are already existing solutions.

------
phzbOx
I'm really happy for @leah and that pivot. I've used convore a lot but was
also wondering where they'd make money. Grove.io is a sweet spot for me as I'm
a big fan of IRC and I believe lots of programmers are. Still, I find it
somewhat risky.

Programmers are used to configure and hack their way up.. I'd be afraid to ask
them to pay for a service that they could quickly "apt-get" on their vps. (I'm
exaggerating a little, but you get the point). I mean, for a really small
team, just go on freenode and get a channel. (It's obviously free). And for a
bigger company, it's worth spending 1-2 hours for that.

I think a free version for small teams would be great. But then, if you can
charge for it, why not? :)

Anyhow, I've already offered my help (I'm mostly a django/python dev) but if
you need another spare-time contractor feel free to contact me.

(Just wanted to say that mIRC is where I first learned to code.. and this is
where I've learned socket, dialogs, etc. I remember, I coded a web server in
mIRC to which I'd connect using a client inside mIRC (in @windows).. and I
coded the server bot. It was fun time, I miss it.)

------
jwpeddle
We migrated from a self-hosted irc server to Grove and couldn't be happier.
The archive and search are a godsend when you can't be bothered to set up
loggers and such yourself. Whenever we're troubleshooting server issues, all
the context is already there in the web client for other devs to hop right in
and catch up. We post to the API from our fab deploy scripts, and when
someone's feeling motivated, we'll be setting up Hubot, as outlined on their
blog. <https://grove.io/blog/hubot-grove>

EDIT: I should also give mention to the great transparency from the team. Leah
emailed me in response to feedback/issues multiple times, and they definitely
keep up with Twitter chatter.

~~~
akent
Surprising - given you already had a self-hosted IRC server, switching to
Grove seems like an expensive option for more or less just the addition of
logging features?

~~~
jwpeddle
The cost is a non-issue for even the few benefits (and the removal of all
responsibility).

Also relevant: we have non irc-savvy devs, so Grove helps with getting them
involved too. It's difficult to explain why IRC is so great to anyone that
doesn't use it- whereas sending an invite and having them in the channel right
away is dead simple.

------
statictype
What do tools like Convore or Hipchat or Campfire offer that you can't do as
easily with Skype? We've been using Skype at work for communication for years
and never really even felt the need to explore alternatives. Is there
something I'm missing about these?

~~~
brown9-2
Logged transcripts. APIs and bots.

~~~
statictype
Skype does all those too.

------
hkarthik
So is this a competitor to HipChat and Campfire? Any additional things that it
does differently?

~~~
jeff18
It is based on IRC, so you can seamlessly use Adium, etc. to use it, in
addition to the web client.

~~~
wahnfrieden
That's not a distinguishing feature (HipChat works in Adium too)

~~~
jeff18
It is, because there are a number of popular IRC clients that don't support
XMPP.

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robryan
Interesting the other cofounders moved to create Boilerplate, a company
focused on building apps, now to creating clutch.io, a development framework
for apps. So combined between the founders a lot of pivoting.

Also interesting the quote about needing over a million users to really create
any real profit through ads. Lots of free consumer apps seem to end up with
user counts that seem really big but are probably still hard to profit with.

~~~
dirkdk
yep. Advertising requires 1million+ MOA (monthly active users) to become
interesting (let's say $10-$30,000/m) in revenue. So as consumers seldom are
willing to pay for a web site, the trick is to get to the 1 million MOA's. And
that is very very hard, even with a all star team, a TC article and lots of
funding

------
paisible
The product look great, and piggy-backing on IRC makes a lot sense. However, I
wouldn't pay for this, on the basis that the pricing model makes me feel like
they assume users are naive (to put it nicely). Multi-tiered pricing models
that work typically offer users incremental value, most often in the form of
extra features (that took time to develop), support (that takes time to
provide) or hardware/bandwidth resources (that are fixed costs to the
company). In this case however, the incremental value is "number of users".
Unless we're talking about hosting video (or other bandwidth-intensive media),
the difference in resources needed to host 50 users can't warrant a 10x price
difference from that of hosting 5 users. This is where they lose me (and
probably most devs) to the "apt-get" alternative. IMHO, they should apply a
one-price model : 10$ per month, unlimited users. It would better bridge the
gap between the DIY option, and the luxury of having someone else do a mostly
one-time configuration (and occasional maintenance) for you.

~~~
badclient
As much as I chuckle at their pricing, I find your suggestion of $10/mo for
unlimited users just as appalling. For one, I am always hesitant to promise
anything "unlimited." Secondly, I'm not sure if they should even try to go
after the dev market if there are bigger fish in the sea.

------
Maro
How is Grove.io different from 37signals' Campfire product? Is it the IRC?

    
    
        Grove.io: "Hosted IRC and so much more."
        
        Campfire: "Team collaboration with real time chat."

~~~
Xylakant
For me, it's definitively the IRC. I can use any IRC client of my liking, any
bot that can talk to IRC, ... I've grown up with all of that and that somehow
makes me like grove more than campfire. But I guess it boils down to personal
preference.

------
jkahn
There's a lot of comments here saying what a great pivot that was. I wouldn't
hold my breath on that one until there is more market traction.

It's a very crowded space Grove are entering. Most non tech-savvy small
businesses I know use Skype by default. I run a technology business and we use
it as well. And the standard fallback is just plain old email. This sounds
like a hard place to make money to me. However, I wish them luck.

------
latch
At the bank I was at, they used something called iConnect, built by AOL (can't
even find a reference to it online). It was horrible. They were switching to
Office Communicator.

I think chat is great, but I wonder if people are looking for more of an all-
in-one communication solution...specifically video and audio.

~~~
suking
skype?

~~~
latch
The decentralized nature of skype is probably a major security issue for
banks. In fact, this hosted IRC might be as well.

Which brings up a good point, maybe at some point they should consider
something like Github Enterprise for large enterprise customers.

------
hugs
This is a great pivot for Convore. I suspect the most frequently asked
question for Grove will be: "Can I use Grove to connect to freenode"? That is
what I'm currently using IRCCloud.com for. That, /and/ keeping me logged into
those freenode channels when I close my browser window.

~~~
jorde
Grove is essentially a IRC server, not a client. While we provide a web based
client you can use whatever you want. Even IRCCloud. As we keep web based
archives you don't have to keep connection open all the time if you don't want
to (once you connect to channel, there will be a message on latest activity).

~~~
sgrove
Still, I agree with hugs. Providing the web frontend as a way to connect to
freenode might be a good gateway drug to get people using grove, and then have
a simple, 'want to have your own private chat? Click here!' or something along
those lines.

------
Hominem
Just signed up. I am a bit worried for them that there is such an easy and
direct way to trnasition off this service. If I really like using Audium or
whatver I have a whole month to set up my own ircD. If I really like this I
will probably go that route, convince a junior teammate to set up ircD after
hours as a learning experience.

------
aroman
Ohh, so this is what became of Convore. I remember hearing Leah Culver talk
about it in some DjangoCon vidoes, and I've seen grove.io around as well, but
didn't make the connection between the two.

Looks solid though -- the business model seems much more logical than Convore.

------
rokhayakebe
The right chat for companies is not a stand-alone product, be it desktop,
mobile or web-based app. I want a browser plugin that beefs up my google mail
chat (search, send files, view history in a browser tab, organize shared files
etc...). In other words, I want the app to be where I already live: Gmail for
businesses. Remember Xoopit?

I haven't used Grove, and I have never used IRC before. So I admit my comment
is uneducated.

~~~
ntkachov
I think there already is one. Its called Smartr inbox.

[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/gakklmehjhhdfjjgnm...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/gakklmehjhhdfjjgnmpkjoemjmeomnli)

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powdahound
It's surprising how often chat services get compared to Yammer which has no IM
functionality.

~~~
phzbOx
Both goals are to improve communication for a team.

------
derpapst
Any ideas/opinions why XMPP's mult-user chat (MUC) is still not widely used?

------
davej
Super simple and cleanly designed, I really like it.

~~~
int3rnaut
Convore is very much the same in that aspect. I've always thought it was one
of the most well designed websites I have ever seen, and constantly look to it
for inspiration when approaching my own unique design issues. They do such a
great job of keeping things as you said, super simple, and cleanly designed.

Congrats on the Pivot folks, hope things go well for you.

------
gustaf
Great work Leah & Jori! Grove.io is awesome!

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barce
I just signed up. Works great on Chrome!

------
latch
Sorry to turn this into reddit, but she's quite pretty. My genuine interest is
to know what impact that has for her. Harder to be taken seriously? Easier to
to sell to other hackers?

~~~
nantes
As a father of three daughters (2 teens), I wonder and worry about this as
well. My girls are wicked smart (no bias or anything) and I have faith they
are going to do great things, but I worry about privelege I've had as man
working against them.

That aside, we absolutely need more women in computing. I'be been doing my
best to encourage my daughters when I can.

