
Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes - rbanffy
https://www.cnet.com/news/google-spinoff-dandelion-uses-ground-energy-to-heat-and-cool-homes/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0b&linkId=52352248#ftag=CAD590a51e
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jqkeller
Ground Source (geothermal) heat pumps are not new, but Dandelion is doing
interesting/innovative things. Here is my understanding from keeping track of
what they're up to for a little while.

First they've developed a new drilling rig to try and drop the drilling time,
cost and mess by 10x. Call the drilling traditionally 50% of the cost. This is
for doing vertical bore holes, instead of horizontal trenches.

Second, they're targeting/marketing directly to home owners in cold regions
who use heating oil for heating. The data collection/marketing is ground
breaking for residential HVAC, but I would guess probably nothing too amazing
compared to any modern web company.

Third, they're bringing modern financing to the ground source heat pump space.
Similar to solar leases/PPA's is my understanding.

~~~
tclancy
>The data collection/marketing is ground breaking for residential HVAC, but I
would guess probably nothing too amazing compared to any modern web company.

Is there some way to see what data they collect/ provide? My client has been
providing insight into geothermal installs for 4-5 years now:
[http://groundenergysupport.com/wp/](http://groundenergysupport.com/wp/) \--
still the most fulfilling thing I ever built.

~~~
jqkeller
My understanding of their data innovation is on the marketing side. What I
heard is they're narrowing their marketing to only homes on heating oil or
propane, essentially not going after houses on the natural gas infrastructure.
The gas distribution data at the residence level is not super public.

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nabla9
Current estimate of costs in Finland A) electric heating, B) air-pump 2)
geothermal

New house, floor heating, 150 m2, 4 persons.

    
    
                            A       B       C
        price installed €   3500    10500   13500
        kWh/year .......    16000   8000    4000 
        COP-estimate ....   1,0	2,0     4,0
        cost per year €     2080 	1040    520  
        saving per year €   -       1040    1560 
        payback difference  -       7 y     6 y
    

saving and cost compared to option A, price of electricity 0.13€/kWh

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jacknews
There doesn't appear to be anything new about this, ground-source heat pumps
have been available for domestic use for quite some time. And going by the
name, and looks, it's actually an air-source heat-pump, but I could be wrong.

~~~
mxuribe
I had heard that these types of systems existed/were used in places like
Iceland (or was it Sweden?)...But I wasn't aware they could be leveraged in
areas where there might not be as much underground geothermal activity.
Unless, I'm misunderstanding what dependencies are needed for these types of
systems to work. In any case, if this is not new, any competition to the way
we heat/cool our homes - assuming it brings lower prices/more options - is
welcomed!

~~~
dougb
They don't depend on geothermal activity. They depend on the relatively
constant temp of the ground below the freeze line. In most places if you go
down a few feet the earth is 40-50 degrees F. Its basically a heat pump that
uses water instead of air.

My sister outside of Pittsburgh, PA has had a
[https://www.waterfurnace.com](https://www.waterfurnace.com) for 17 years. Her
system has paid for itself a few times over. She has 1500 ft of plastic tubing
burried in her front yard.

------
oldcynic
Misprint? Commonly available ground source systems can save upto 75%. That's
way ahead of the article's claimed 20%. At 20% it's simply not worth the cost
of installation.

Dandelion's website won't load to let me check.

~~~
mikeyouse
If I'm reading it correctly, the 20% annual savings figure is for the financed
installation. They claim 70% annual savings for the cash installation. So
their claim is that even if you include the financing payments, you'll still
be paying >20% less for energy throughout the year.

See the graphic at the top here:

[https://dandelionenergy.com/much-money-will-i-save-
poughkeep...](https://dandelionenergy.com/much-money-will-i-save-
poughkeepsie/)

~~~
ericd
I wonder how their economic viability changes if interest rates double. A lot
of these kinds of companies seem to have assumptions of historically cheap
money baked in.

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notindustry
While Dandelion is the flashiest player in the Geothermal space right now
because of their relationship with Google, they really aren't offering too
much innovation inside the industry where some really exciting things are
happening.

For example, there is startup, Geothermal Drilling Solutions [1], that is, in
my opinion, poised to disrupt the entire industry.

Their website isn't great, but from what saw and heard from them at a recent
conference, they have a rig that can drill in the basements of existing
structures. They are going to bring geothermal to major population centers
where it is otherwise impossible, and I'm hopeful from the demo I saw, do it
faster and cheaper than "traditional" drillers like Dandelion.

[1]:
[https://www.geothermaldrillingsolutions.com/](https://www.geothermaldrillingsolutions.com/)

~~~
exelius
Most cities don’t include adequate ground-depth rights in land titles, so
home-scale geothermal in cities is almost certainly out. This isn’t a
regulatory thing; you literally only own the first 10 feet of ground or so
(hence so many horizontal geothermal systems).

Should play pretty well in the suburbs, where oil heat is more common.

~~~
notindustry
You're right that does prevent some drilling depending on the city and it is a
shame as it locks out a lot of downtown properties. I'm also not a big fan of
horizontal systems and prefer vertical fields whenever possible.

Still, I'm excited because I think there is a big market for residential and
commercial spaces that don't have the footprint or alley access to fit a
conventional rig.

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mgkimsal
> Installation isn't cheap. Dandelion estimates the cost at around $20,000,
> depending on home size and state and federal incentives. But the company
> notes that consumers are likely to save about 20 percent annually on the
> cost of home heating and cooling.

Are they aiming at regular home owners?

Our heating/cooling is ~ $2.4k/year - about $200/month. Fluctuates -
summertime is sometimes higher, winter can bring high heating months, but our
electric bill is often under $100 for the spring months, so ... it evens out.

This would mean a ... $500 savings per year? $40/month? Are other people
paying much much higher heating/cooling costs than I am, and this would make
sense?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Maybe it makes sense for an apartment building or an entire block, together?
(That said, a 2.5% inflation-adjusting yield isn’t terrible.)

~~~
adtac
Maintenance will be a recurring cost (amortised) cutting into the yield
percentage.

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martin_bech
This makes no sense.. systems like this have existed for many years, and are
not uncommon here in Denmark. But the newest thing is air to water heatpumps.
They are even more effective, and have lower upfront cost. I just had one
installed at my vacation home. It heats about 200 square meters and an indoor
pool. It even has en app.. [https://volundvt.dk/produkter/luft-til-vand-
varmepumpe/sorti...](https://volundvt.dk/produkter/luft-til-vand-
varmepumpe/sortimentsoversigt/produkt/f2120-luft-vand-varmepumpe)

~~~
jpao79
I think that's the beauty of it. Just need to reframe the negative spin into a
positive spin.

If what you are saying is true, i.e.:

a.) the technology for geothermal exists and is commonplace in Europe

b.) the financials for geothermal work out

c.) all geothermal requires is awareness of a.) and b.)

then marketing to get US consumers to adopt it is an amazing idea. Dandelion
and Google should be applauded!

~~~
martin_bech
That wasnt really my point. My point was twofold, that 1. the tech exists, so
way praise google X etc? 2. Its already outdated.. air to water heatpumps are
moore efficient, cheaper and easier to install. The ground based heat system
require a very large yard or similar to lay pretty massive amounts of pipes to
be effective. Thats also a very big part of the cost.

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cwkoss
Dandelions have long taproots that descend deep below the surface to pull up
water and nutrients. Clever name.

Image of dandelion roots - [http://d21h34pqo0rkag.cloudfront.net/wp-
content/uploads/2013...](http://d21h34pqo0rkag.cloudfront.net/wp-
content/uploads/2013/04/dandelion-greens-info-recipes-
videos-e1367272385946.jpg)

------
eps
So, a geothermal heat pump?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heat_pump](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heat_pump)

~~~
puzzle
It's not a novelty, but they aim to bring traditional costs down.

One of the founders is Bob Wyman, who was one of the most interesting
characters at Google. He could talk for hours about prospective search (he had
founded PubSub), his time at DEC working on All-in-1 or his advocacy to get
rid of No. 6 fuel oil in NYC buildings.

------
DannyBee
The EER on their ground source heat pump is abysmal.

For a 4 ton pump, they have 17.5 EER, 3.9 COP

For the O(same price) for the unit, the waterfurnace 7 series is 41.0 EER, 5.3
COP.

(Both can provide all hot water, etc).

The waterfurnace also carries a 10 year warranty instead of 5 year labor/10
year parts.

Can't speak to the drilling rig, which also seems interesting.

------
justherefortart
Dandelion Air is a geothermal system that moves heat between the house and the
ground using plastic pipes and a pump -- bringing heat to the building in
winter and pushing heat to the ground in summer.

So what we've been putting in homes for ~40 years already. Thanks Google!

~~~
josefresco
My local well drilling guy has offered "geothermal" for years (decades?)
Despite a large inventory of wealthy second home owners, he didn't get and
still doesn't get many takers. Meanwhile, rooftop solar is everywhere.

My parents almost bought their "retirement home" with an existing geothermal
system - it remains the only "real world" home instance of this technology
that I have encountered.

$20K also seems very close to the price he told me years ago - I fail to see
the innovation here. I'm sure there's _something_ here, but the article
doesn't help illuminate it.

Edit: Another HNer posted this, apparently it's a cheaper drilling technique:
[https://blog.x.company/introducing-
dandelion-2706eded169a](https://blog.x.company/introducing-
dandelion-2706eded169a)

~~~
Eridrus
I wonder, how "compatible" this is with solar.

I.e. if you install solar by itself, you save X dollars/month. If you install
this by itself, you save Y dollars a month. If you install both, is it close
to X+Y, or is there some substitution there?

On one hand, you can sell solar back to the grid, but you can't always sell it
back at retail, so I would guess your savings would be smaller, but how much
smaller? Or would you be able to achieve the same ROI with a smaller rooftop
solar installation?

TBH, I'm not really a big fan of rooftop solar, it seems like a hack to deal
with shitty environmental policy that undermines the electricity grid itself.

~~~
dsr_
Depends on how you heat.

If you live in a climate where you need to heat in the winter and cool in the
summer, ground source heat pump are cheaper to operate than oil, gas and A/C.
Solar will contribute to reducing your A/C electricity bills and also all the
other power you use year-long, so they work together.

If you live in a climate where you occasionally turn on an electric heater for
those really cold days, this will only help during cooling season, while solar
will contribute all year long.

------
olivermarks
Feels like a bit of 'jump the shark' moment for google...a geothermal heat
pump called dandelion from an advertising and search company. Does it connect
to nest and phone home information about our homes?

~~~
sp332
Yes, it comes with a Nest thermostat.

~~~
olivermarks
It appears they are using a better drilling method
[https://blog.x.company/introducing-
dandelion-2706eded169a](https://blog.x.company/introducing-
dandelion-2706eded169a) I was being cynical as we have a nest that
underperforms and sometimes behaves erratically. The website focuses on
exploiting subsidies to install. I'd like to know more about Dandelion in case
I missed something, will be interesting to get feedback on effectiveness,
performance and noise levels

