
The future of college is online, and it’s cheaper - prostoalex
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/opinion/online-college-coronavirus.html
======
hn_throwaway_99
I remember this quote from Larry Sabato, famous political science professor
from UVA: "online education is something you want _other_ parents' children to
do".

People who think college is just about, or honestly even primarily about,
learning various subjects show a deep misunderstanding of what college is in
my opinion. Online learning will of course have a place, but in a world where
there are both in-person and exclusively online options it's not hard to
imagine which experience top students (not to mention the rich and connected)
will prefer, and this will only lead to more inequality in higher education.

~~~
thebradbain
I agree — it’s not that online-learning _has_ to be intrinsically, objectively
of lower quality than traditional college education (indeed, some online-first
courses I took for fun now offered on Coursera were better than I remember
some of my in-person courses), but to think that college is only courses
misses the point: it’s the opportunity to grow not just academically, but,
just as important, socially and independently — at most schools, you’re
meeting with peers from all over the world (or at least from outside your
hometown), have direct interactions with professors renowned in their field
who are (in my experience) eager to personally introduce you to opportunities
you wouldn’t know about from searching the internet, and access to a vast
collection of resources much more restricted to the public. To say college is
just getting a degree is to miss out on all of the non-purely academic
opportunities colleges offer.

But aside from all of that — it’s also where many (not all) young adults go
after high school to figure out who they are, who they want their friends to
be, and what they want to do, as for most of them it’s their first taste of
living as their own fully independent person. Something has to fill that
vacuum.

~~~
akhilcacharya
> Something has to fill that vacuum.

There’s always the military or a peacetime national service program.

~~~
thebradbain
Both of those would seem to imply the virtual exclusion of anyone who is not a
US-citizen

~~~
akhilcacharya
Non-citizens are free to join the military for the record. It’s one of the
more accessible ways of becoming a citizen on an accelerated timeframe.

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runawaybottle
I’ve sat through so many lectures where it’s just one dude talking, with a
sprinkle of a question here and there.

Higher education just has this weird power, they are held in such reverence
that they are actually able to say ‘no, this magical monologue can only be
heard in person’.

Make it mostly remote, bring the kids in for proctored exams, enable insane
flexibility with respect to people’s time. Enable all types of schedules and
accommodations, which believe it or not is also a barrier, not just money.

My college simply did not offer any of it’s science classes after work hours,
definitely no chance to catch one on a weekend. We had to be there for the
magical in person monologue.

~~~
jimbob45
To be fair, lectures are cheap (and entirely worthless) but labs and
recitations are somewhat expensive and tailored (to varying degrees) to each
student.

Not saying college shouldn't die - it's a racket. However, I can't imagine
performing any of my magnetism or optics labs remotely.

~~~
hourislate
How about all lectures go online and you come in for a couple of days a week
for labs? Lets cut the price in half and stop the insanity.

There was a time a kid could get a summer job and put himself through medical
or law school.

------
unishark
I teach at a university. We aren't (completely) evil sith lords who have
somehow tricked everyone with our big conspiracy. And students aren't
irrational fools who love to waste their money. We'd love to do more online
programs. Everyone has been trying to get them or two going, including us. The
problem is most students can't handle them. It's like buying a home exercise
device. They usually just gather dust if you aren't surrounded by peers and
trainers pushing you to use them.

Over the years I'd say student self-motivation has gone down not up for a
variety of reasons, requiring a lot more hand-holding. More people go to
college than before, plus in STEM most of our students come from countries
where school consists of watching lectures passively then cramming the night
before exams.

~~~
analog31
I know that I needed hand-holding to get through college. Oddly enough, there
were some subjects that I was able to learn easily on my own, including
programming and electronics. Other subjects, such as math and physics, I just
didn't have the self discipline to keep up on my own, even though I was
sincerely interested in them. I majored in those subjects, but continue to use
programming and electronics in my work.

I don't know anybody who has brought themselves up to a useful level of
competence in math or physics, through self-study.

------
non-entity
I'm not convinced. The response I've seen from traditional students has been
overwhelming negative. Added to that is the negative legacy of online
education (which is of course a whole story itself)

Education is just one part of attending a college. Credentialling is another
really big one, and beyond that theres a ton of various social components that
add to the value of attending a school. With online schools, you either lose
out or get a degraded version of those.

I've seen a lot of arguments from people in non-software fields doubt online
degrees, including engineers say they'd be wary of an online degree regardless
of its accreditation and physics graduates raise question about not having
access to extremely expensive equipment for labs.

And yes, a legitimate online degree wont indicate its online (although it can
be deduced in some circumstances), so ideally the credentialling remains valid
at least.

------
product50
I am not sure why professors still think college is about education (as the
author in this article who is a professor is assuming). And that students
learn in the class. No - that is not what it is about. Most students in top
tier universities are smart enough to learn themselves. There are already tons
of online education courses for them to get this done. The goal of college is
more about networking, having a good time and credentialism. And that is what
they pay for. You are not going to Harvard MBA to get their education - it is
all about the people you will get to know and credential you will get once you
graduate. That is worth $200k. Not a Zoom class sitting in front of a computer
in a far off corner of the world with nothing else to do.

~~~
rdtwo
Not even that it’s about signaling. A Harvard education is no better than the
other top 50 schools but it signals elite status to future employers and
clients.

------
RyJones
I worked for CTLT at WSU for two years - 2003[0] - 2005. Distance learning is
hard, and I feel like people are not appreciating how difficult assessment is.
There is a book on this[1] which covers a bunch of finicky stuff; we used a
much earlier version for our designs.

CTLT is no more; I'm sure WSU is still working[2] on distance learning.

[0]: [https://blog.ryjones.org/2003/09/18/For-want-of-a-
nail](https://blog.ryjones.org/2003/09/18/For-want-of-a-nail)

[1]:
[https://www.powells.com/book/-9781118456149](https://www.powells.com/book/-9781118456149)

[2]: [https://online.wsu.edu](https://online.wsu.edu)

------
afvictory
I definitely believe that there is a need to transition college programs into
an online format, or at least present the option to college students. It is,
however, tricky for various fields of study. While for computer science it's
definitely easy to offer an online curriculum, I would say the value for a lot
of the physical sciences comes from the hands on experience. This is the case
for business students as well, where most of the value of in person classes is
derived from the network that one builds. It's much harder to build those
kinds of relationships without engaging with other students face to face.

That being said, in my experience regarding the computer science perspective,
having mandatory in person lectures added little to no value in terms of
actual knowledge gained. In fact, I would argue that not being able to
participate online was a detriment to my personal college experience. In order
to avoid taking on massive amounts of debt, I had to work full-time while
doing my undergrad. I was lucky enough to land a full time development gig my
sophomore year, but it required being in the office 80% of the week. Between
work, commuting, and sitting in a lecture hall, I had very few hours left in
the day to actually work on my assignments and this caused me to make
sacrifices in order to manage my time.

There was nothing communicated in our lectures that could not have been
communicated in a pre-recorded video or via a class forum. The option to
participate online will open up doors for many individuals who might not have
been able to pursue higher education before, such as those who have to work or
take care of their families.

The article mentions the OMSCS program at Georgia Tech [1], and I can't
recommend this program enough. I'm currently about half way through the
curriculum, and the format of the program alone addresses almost every issue
I've had with my undergrad. I am able to watch lectures and do projects at my
own pace which makes managing my time significantly easier. It also comes at
10% of the cost of my undergrad and that's a price that's hard to beat.

[1] [https://omscs.gatech.edu/](https://omscs.gatech.edu/)

------
mto
Teaching second semester CS students atm I unfortunately see that many
students just can't handle it remotely. Although I admit that I'm skeptical if
students unable to do some work independently are... a good fit.

I live in a European country where things are different of course. With
university being basically free, this piece is a non-issue. Also people trust
public institutions much more - for a reason. The university where I studied
had no problem kicking out 70% of the students. I teach at a private
institution and every year I have to dumb down things because they pay and
controlling and management and blah. We're now sooo far away from the material
taught at the comparable university course. And with this remote semester even
much worse.

Furthermore, traditionally out university studies were already organized in a
very "free" way - no specifically enforced order or lots of mandatory
presence. Do your exams and in the end show all your certificates. Most lab
courses were a meeting once and then everyone working on their own at home
anyway. It was mostly the first 2 years with the math whiteboard sessions with
mandatory presence. The rest I did mostly from home anyway and skipped most
lectures.

Lastly, many companies are still reluctant to hire graduates with "only a
bachelor" as it's still often seen as a dropout degree (we made the switch
from out classic 5 years diploma studies just a decade ago or so). So go
figure what the opinion on some MOOC certificate.

So to to sum up I don't see much chance here because: \- many can:t handle it
\- university cheaper than udacity nanodegrees \- good job compatibility
anyway (at least for studies like CS anyway but if not you can't do a MOOC
either) \- no trust by companies in private edu providers

------
lcall
Two interesting examples of viable, accredited, online schools:

Western Governors University: [https://www.wgu.edu/](https://www.wgu.edu/)
(also mentioned in wikipedia): state aid available from multiple states it
seems (per wkp).

BYU Pathway Worldwide and associated programs. It requires a Church
affiliation but not necessarily membership (I think). I think there is good
personal support, interaction, tuition is much lower, bachelors programs (like
IT, business, others) are available, programs excellent, and is also suitable
for those who need to first become qualified for entering a university (edit:
i.e., learning English which is used in curriculum, and other basic skills),
then provides that university. More info is in Wikipedia and I have gathered a
bit of info including linking to a news article that explains it well I think,
here:
[http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854578440.html](http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854578440.html)
.

------
dhawalhs
The two degrees in the articles are examples of "MOOC-based degrees". These
are launched by MOOC providers like Coursera, edX, and FutureLearn.

In all 50+ such degrees have been announced [1]. ~30 of these were announced
in 2018, but there was a slow down in 2019 with only 11 announced [2].

A majority of degrees tend to be Master's, but there are few bachelors. Most
recently Coursera announced that their Bachelor of Science in Computer Science
from University of London had 2,000+ students enrolled. It was announced last
year and costs 10,088 – 15,132 GBP.

Disclaimer: I am the founder of Class Central, a Tripadvisor for Online
Education. But we also write about the MOOC industry in depth.

[1] [https://www.classcentral.com/report/mooc-based-masters-
degre...](https://www.classcentral.com/report/mooc-based-masters-degree/)

[2] [https://www.classcentral.com/report/moocs-stats-and-
trends-2...](https://www.classcentral.com/report/moocs-stats-and-trends-2019/)

~~~
non-entity
One interesting thing I've noticed in a handful of the MOOC degrees (only a
few of them at the moment offer this) is alternative pathways. I've seen
masters degrees offer pathways for literally anyone, even with no prior
education to be admitted into them and acquire a masters degree.

On one hand, I'm all for democratizing education, and have taken some courses
from said programs individually (typically the offer a "preview") and from
what I've seenb hey aren't something anyone without prior subjects knowledge
can just fake themselves through.

On the other hand, a lot of the advertising from the schools themselves read
like something from a for-profit and I wonder whether programs like these will
weaken the reputation of the degrees or even that of the schools themselves.
Paraphrasing something I've read on here before, sometimes, the degree is more
about signalling than education.

------
bnj
It seems like if college study is going to move online there will still need
to be opportunities for young people to come together and network in a way
that will be functionally similar to a college campus. I could see some sort
of cooperative college town without the college emerging...

~~~
zappo2938
Youth hostels. It is a becoming a trend to put work spaces and decent chairs
in the hostel for remote workers and students.

------
throwawayiionqz
It's not in-class interactions (party? Networking? Labs?) versus being alone
in a room watching lecture videos.

If students don't have to live on campus to get the credits and the degree, it
opens a world of possibilities. They can work part-time/intern in a real
company and network while completing their online courses. Receive salary at
18, network with other interns and older employees at the company, participate
in industrial grade lab experiments if that happens at the company.

Say Google would open "3y part time internships" allowing students to enroll
in a credentialing University and complete courses and get a degree online
while working at the company. The in-campus experience doesn't sound very
compelling now.

~~~
aiddun
Shopify actually has a program like this:
[https://devdegree.ca](https://devdegree.ca)

------
keiferski
Probably the single best course I took in college was an advanced course on
Metaphysics (my degree is in philosophy.) It was during the summer, so the
class was about 3 hours long, and there were only 3 other students and the
professor. The level of discussion and feedback was incredible - there was
very little lecturing and essentially just discussion and Socratic-style
investigation into the paper of the day.

I’m not sure how this experience can be replicated by an online lecture. Even
group video chat is a poor replacement for a small in-person discussion group.
I can see online videos replacing the lecture format for larger or general
education classes, but to me personally, the real value was in the small
discussion groups.

~~~
zappo2938
What did you read?

~~~
keiferski
Pretty much just a different paper on metaphysics every week. It’s been a
decade and I don’t remember exactly, but most of the names listed here sound
familiar (Quine, Carnap, Ayer, etc.):

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_philosophy#Analytic_m...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_philosophy#Analytic_metaphysics)

------
taylodl
What folly! Would you hire a chemist, physicist, mechanical engineer,
electrical engineer or aeronautical engineer who didn't have any lab
experience? Never mind doctors, nurses, dentists, dental hygienists - and so
on, and so on, and so on, and so on. The biggest thing separating college from
high school is _hands-on experience._ The degrees that can be learned entirely
online are the ones most-likely destined for the trash bin as it's going to be
expected that _everyone_ has that knowledge since it's so readily available
and accessible.

It's about _doing_ , not just learning.

------
dantondwa
It is indeed very cheap and convenient for colleges. For students, it will
just mean the loss of a community, of a network and even more isolation in an
already deeply solitary society.

There are other way that can make education cheaper, ways that do not involve
the commoditization of classes and the destruction of the student experience.

------
econcon
If higher education is all about networking then why they've not been
disrupted by cheaper ways to network?

Why there exists nothing other than higher education institute charging arm
and leg for people to network?

Can't we have simple institute where people simply go to brainstorm on random
stuff and with no focus on grades or anything at all.

~~~
imtringued
Higher education doesn't have to be expensive.

------
sabujp
A lot of people are thinking of starting the university education as the
primary means to make some money off of your work. They don't make that as a
side effect of the cost of the college degree.

A lot of the "higher education", and the "college", are just "people who get
to keep that kind of money" as we see in the article (I know there is a lot of
money in universities around the world). I wish I'd see the financial returns
for such programs as the ones with the most money, but it doesn't make sense
to me to go to one without being very rich. Sure we have a good business model
and we can afford a college degree, but there's no guarantee that the people
with the least money are the ones spending the most money.

------
enjoyyourlife
Parallel online degrees programs as mentioned in the article already exist.
However, they are not necessarily cheaper. Harvard Extension School costs
$2,840 per course even when taking it online

------
analog31
I have a friend whose daughter had a baby while in high school, was allowed to
graduate early (i.e., got kicked out), and enrolled in online college. It was
an online program from a state university.

According to my friend, her daughter's biggest challenge was the boredom:
Sitting all day long in front of a computer in a small rural town.

She graduated with a major in some meaty subject like biology, and has made a
decent life for herself. But I can see how there's a lot of attrition.

------
denkmoon
The most valuable aspect of university for me wasn't going to lectures and
learning things, but learning how to get myself to important classes on time
and other "adult" stuff.

When you get to uni you've spent 13 years in the education system, but you're
probably only just starting to be responsible for yourself. Learning that in a
slightly more forgiving environment is useful and missed by online classes.

------
choonway
The reason why you want to go in person to college is to meet your peers in
ability and get to know them up front.

Otherwise, you can just pick up a book and start reading.

~~~
schoolornot
There is something about immersion. Not everyone has the discipline to study
independently for hours a day.

------
dubya
Getting away from one's home life has to have value for a lot of kids, either
escaping a bad situation or getting free of an overbearing parent. I think the
nytimes had an earlier article about the inequalities that are suddenly on
display when students are on camera in their homes.

Also, I just finished "Educated", and can't imagine the story working online.

------
purplezooey
I don't understand why there are so many 4-year and Masters programs that are
so expensive. Who has $60,000 for a degree? They are priced with the
expectation that you will take on debt and slave away for 30 years at the
profession for which you're now trained, to pay it off. Community colleges
look like a huge advantage.

------
MikeGale
Is there any need not to have, online, in person discussions and learn for
yourself, mixed to suit you and the institution? I think not.

Neither a one size fits all online lecture nor a physical lecture with a lot
of students, is tailored to the individual student very much, or interactive.
I'd prefer to see education that is personalised.

------
coopsmgoops
Nobody seems to be acknowledging how schedules and in person classes are
motivating. For instance I would not understand calculus to the degree I do if
I didn't have some kind of irl accountability. And there have been many times
when a good instructor has galvanized intense interest in something new.

------
glitchc
Online learning removes two major barriers, accessibility and classroom
limitations.

Harvard has no limit on how many students it accepts in its online program.
Once they realize that and offer it, why would I go to the local state school
if I can go to Harvard instead?

~~~
rdtwo
Because Harvard doesn’t want that. The value of that degree is 90% signaling
and 10% networking. If anyone could go that would remove most of the value.

~~~
glitchc
Don't get me wrong, campus enrollment will still be limited. Online
certifications have no limits. All Harvard has to do is internally stratify
their degrees, online vs on-campus, and have it say so right on the diploma.
They could serve 100x the current enrollment count and still remain exclusive.

------
bryanrasmussen
It may get cheaper for the organizations that control the resource to
distribute it, but it will not get especially cheaper for the people who want
the resource, the difference will of course be pocketed by the organization.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
although I could conceive of some sort of tiered service based on your ability
to pay, so you can buy the Harvard-lite package. But I think that is going to
need a few years of them figuring out how to package and sell it.

------
cafard
My suggestion: wait twenty or thirty years and look at the resumes of the
30-somethings at the New York Times. I suspect their colleges will be much
what you'd find now.

------
troughway
[https://pastebin.com/EUF0Y9PV](https://pastebin.com/EUF0Y9PV)

------
bransonf
The University of Texas System tried to do this in the late 90s/early 00s.
They concluded _Web-based distance education is not appropriate for every
student._ [0] (There also exists a long form narrative about the origins of
this, but I can't seem to find it again)

The opinion columnist misses crucially what college is. It's not really about
lectures. Rather, it's an incubator for young people to intellectually grow.
Online courses don't give you the ability to drop in on a hundred different
clubs, go to the library, party, date, drop in the office of some very smart
people.

A college campus drops some thousands of young people in the same proximity,
and gives them a collective experience. It situates them amongst a litany of
highly intellectual adults and gives them a way to try news things. I just
graduated from university, and I was leaving the core curriculum had become
under conflict. I attended a Jesuit university, so there was a large
philosophical/religious portion of curriculum. Opponents say this leads to no
meaning job skills, and it's hard to disagree.

College isn't just about getting a job, at least it shouldn't be. We have
culturally deemed the degree necessary for employment, and that's the bigger
issue. I grew philosophically and theoretically in the classroom, but it was
everything outside of the classroom that made me readily employable. Frankly,
it was a privilege that I had four years to figure out who I was and what I
enjoyed.

I recognize that not everyone is this fortunate. Some go to college just
because they need to find jobs. That is where I think online learning has
potential. We must acknowledge it will lead to a bifurcation in higher
education. Online degrees are already less respected than degrees from high-
ranking private universities or good public systems (UC/UT/UM). This
bifurcation is not necessarily a bad thing. Those who want job skill training
should be able to opt for online programs and be able to land jobs (Think like
what Lambda aims to achieve).

The wealthy and high-achieving will still go to expensive private universities
in person. For everyone else, there should be an accessible means for gainful
employment at a fraction of the cost.

I see the fundamental issue in higher education being that colleges have
become more expensive as they become more comprehensive experiences, but the
market forces bachelors degree attainment for even basic employment. The
result is that those who don't need, or don't want, all the luxuries have to
subsidize the cost.

[0]
[http://www.irrodl.org/index.php/irrodl/article/view/53/110](http://www.irrodl.org/index.php/irrodl/article/view/53/110)

------
mathnmusic
I can see it happening for computer science, law and business, but anything
that involves dealing with real physical matter (think rocket propulsion labs,
molecular biology labs or even just welding/machining shops), we will need
physical spaces. The signalling value might just move there: "We have the most
sophisticated lab equipment for you to learn with world-class researchers to
assist you"

Still, the great unbundling of education has begun. We at learnawesome.org are
contributing to that as we recently launched a project-based learning program
with a peer group and practitioners as mentors. The mentors will curate a
"syllabus" using online resources, but the goal is for you to learn by
accomplishing meaning projects: [https://learnawesome.org/project-based-
learning.html](https://learnawesome.org/project-based-learning.html)

