
Ask HN: Should I take this Google job offer? - mulch
Hi HN, posting anonymously.<p>I've just been offered a job at Google in Mountain View as a software engineer. I'm 35 and I have about 11 years of experience.<p>I'm from England and have a no-name degree. I would be sponsored for a visa.<p>So I have a couple of questions:<p>- Is $110k a good base salary for the Bay area?<p>- How does 200 GSUs stack up?<p>- Would you take the job? If so, why? If not, why not?<p>I work in the Thames valley currently and don't know how my standard of living will change.<p>I am a C++ programmer who hasn't previously worked for a "name" company and my degree is from a no name poly in the UK.<p>I must admit I'm tempted to go work on a scale I've never seen before. But Google seems a little more like a large company than a startup these days.<p>Note: of course some of the details have changed to obfuscate the source.
======
strlen
Do it. $110k is lower than you might get elsewhere, but it shouldn't matter
for this reason:

* Compared to Microsoft, Apple, etc... $110k for somebody coming on a visa is still a good deal. If you're _local to the valley_ , then sure you can get a higher number. Nonetheless, this is still competitive.

* If $110k is "too low" for you to live off, even with a family in the valley, you're doing something wrong. Newsflash: there are people here who aren't software engineers (but other educated, technical intelligentsia types) and they live just fine on $70-90k (this is what a physicist I knew at Intel was making, for example).

* Working at Google increases your market value tremendously. As does being local to the valley and having a visa.

* Working for a well-funded, mid-to-late stage startup is another attractive option in the valley (that's what I am doing and I am very happy where I am), but that is hypothetical: you have an offer in your hand from Google and they're sponsoring you from a visa. Take it; if you don't like after a few years, your options are plentiful (if you don't get a raise at Google -- and I'd be surprised if that's the case -- you'll easily be able to get a higher salary elsewhere).

~~~
keeptrying
Also just to add to this, with your experience you'd be able to apply in the
EB2 category for a Green Card and since your British, you should be able to
get it in 2 years or less.

And once you have a visa, you can work for anyone here in the US by just
transferring it. Transferring a visa is much much simpler a process than
getting a new one.

I think this is a great opportunity to get to the states and work in a great
environment. Some of my friends came to the states with $40K starting salary
and now they earn about $100K base + bonus(Denver,CO).

~~~
trustfundbaby
> Also just to add to this, with your experience you'd be able to apply in the
> EB2 category for a Green Card and since your British, you should be able to
> get it in 2 years or less.

I can't second this enough, be sure to stay on top of this and nudge them to
file for the Green card at the same time they file for the h1-b or very soon
after. Then you can have a green card in no time at all.

~~~
mavelikara
+1. Try to figure out when your green card application will be filed. The
earlier, the better.

------
dotBen
Fellow Brit who moved out here 4 years ago.. I say go for it, especially if
Google are going to sponsor your H1B. Make sure you _completely_ understand
the visa process and timeline though (if it's H1B you may have to wait a
period of time before you can actually move). Don't forget you could always
move jobs in a year so Google is a great 'landing' into the Bay Area.

If you have 11 years experience $110k seems a little low but it might be more
than you are getting in UK (I was always paid shit in UK) and cost of living
is lower here in the Bay Area (even in SF compared to London). Google is known
for paying a little lower than average AND they will expect you to really put
in the hours. I don't know many Googlers who actually get to work on their 20%
time projects, either.

I personally would move to the City (San Francisco) and commute down in the
Google busses.

At this point there are not going to be many firms that will pay the ~$20k for
the visa application so I say go for it and then reassess what you REALLY want
to do while you are out here.

Best of luck!

~~~
iampims
Did your visa application cost $20k? It seems extremely high. I heard it's
usually around $5K (fees + lawyers).

~~~
tptacek
The numbers we're getting are slightly south of that, too.

------
vonconrad
I would say "do it." Working for Google is a dream to many
developers/engineers. Their reputation is generally pretty good.

Career wise? If you don't end up liking it (or think that the salary is too
low), you'll be in the Bay area with a visa, Google on your resume and 12+
years of experience (assuming you'll be with Google for at least a year). I
would bet your chances of getting another kickass job would be a lot higher
than if you didn't take the Google job.

~~~
kia
As far as I know H1B is company specific. If you change the company you have
to get another H1B to work for that company.

~~~
europa
Once you have an H1 b , transferring that to a different company is not that
difficult.

~~~
jbarham
Transferring the H1B to a different company is straightforward. However (and
this happened to me) if the original company is sponsoring your green card,
you will have to _restart the green card application process_ with your new
employer (unless you are in the final stage of the process). Bear in mind that
the green card process can take several years. IMO this is an unacceptably
high risk.

------
djhworld
Why do you put yourself down about your degree? You've been working in the
industry for 11 years and have just got a job offer from probably one of the
hardest companies to get into - no one cares about your degree nowadays,
you've proven yourself already.

~~~
mulch
Without opening another can of worms, doors are more easily opened here if you
have a 1st or 2:1 from say Oxford or Cambridge, particularly in the City.

From across the pond it looks like the US is worse for this with grads from
Stanford, MIT or CMU having a way easier time of it career-wise. It seems a
lot easier to get in those "name" companies.

~~~
djhworld
But all this is largely irrelevant, he has the job offer on the table already!
That means the Google have placed emphasis on his experience and character
rather than where he went to University.

If he was applying to Google, fresh out of University (outside of the so
called 'top 10') and was wondering if he was in with a chance, then that would
be a different story, but he's proven his worth in the industry already.

~~~
bmj
He == the original poster

I think straight out of university, at least in my experience here in the
States, having a degree from a "known" school helps. That said, it does not
prevent you from getting good work, especially if you've already built up a
social network.

------
Jun8
Your situation is complicated by the big move from a different country (do you
have a home to sell, family, kids, etc.). But here are my thoughts:

* $110K is OK. In California that's not a lot of money. However, don't be fooled by Google base salaries, they are lower than other comparable companies but the bonuses can be out of this world. Typically they could be 30% of you salary but if you can get your hands on an important project, sky's the limit.

* As others have noted, Google is a _huge_ resume booster. This is doubly true in your case, since you're from another country and have a "no-name degree". After this, it would be orders of magnitude easier for you to land a new job in the valley.

* But know that the Google culture can be caustic, esp. if you're older and is not quite used to pulling 11pm workdays regularly. The culture is super alpha-geek with every young hot shot trying to prove him/herself and make their fortune in 2-3 years. Tl;dr: You will work your ass off.

* The initial project is crucial. Although everybody says you can change projects at will, this can only be done after 18 months or so for new hires. I had friends stuck in backwater projects leaving G without waiting that long.

So, summary: If you're planning to relaunch your career in the Valley and
maybe eventually go the startup way, this is an _excellent_ opportunity, do it
immediately. Go there, quickly get your green card, work for 2 years, and jump
either to a better position in G or ideally to another company.

~~~
jbarham
> quickly get your green card

This is easier said than done since Google first has to sponsor your green
card application (it's not automatic with an H1B visa) and in my experience
the government bureaucracy that handles green cards doesn't know the meaning
of the word "quick".

~~~
Jun8
You're right, the application process does have a large variation. However,
anecdotal evidence (from my colleagues and me) suggests that if you're not
from India or China, you should get it in about 1.5 - 2 years from
application.

~~~
codedump124
how much would it be for Indians / Chinese ?

~~~
Jun8
I've heard some sorry stories for ~ 4 years, but depending on how full the
quote lines are I think ~3 years is a good estimate.

------
Eduis
I'm an ex googler but not out of the engineering side so I can't comment on
exactly what their current norm is. In general, this is a pretty typical offer
for Google for a mid range employee, what outside of engineering they'd call
an E5 or E6. Usually their salary & GSUs are negotiable, but not by much.
Google does't pay a ton in general, and as others have mentioned, if you have
a family on this salary with the potential that your wife can't work, things
might be a stretch in the Bay Area. However, working for Google is an amazing
experience. You're not going to retire early on the money you make. You'll
have to balance your needs against the potential for future gains with Google
on your resume. I'm sure the experience would be positive in many areas, but
you shouldn't expect much more from them.

------
pkghost
200 Google Stock Units ~ $100,000 over 4 years (probably).

$110k + $25k = $135k.

------
ericabiz
Seems a bit low for the Bay Area, but this is subjective and depends on what
else they are giving you in terms of perks (free food, etc.)

Someone else said rent was $1500. I lived in the Bay Area for 10 years and
$1500 gets you a 1BR apartment (maybe 2BR if you want to live south or east).
It gets you a share if you want to live in San Francisco. For a house, you are
looking at $3K+.

~~~
mrtron
Please don't sign posts here, we can see your name above your posts. Thanks!

~~~
ericabiz
If I don't sign them, people address me as "he" consistently.

~~~
mrtron
Who cares?

<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

------
MatthewBloch
As a fellow Brit, I agree the salary sounds low, but if you don't have family
ties, want a change from the drizzly south-east to the sunny heart of hacker
culture, it sounds unbeatable. Good luck!

------
HaloZero
I know at least one college grad who is getting more GSU than you though, they
are 100% lowballing you but they are also sponsoring your Visa to come to the
US. Might affect their offer.

~~~
mulch
Starting GSUs? Apparently they're topped up every now and again.

------
ardit33
110k is way too low, they are definitely lowballing you. If you think you are
good, you should be making at least 130k-140k+, so I am sure you can negotiate
that.

If they don't come up on salary, you still can do the following: 1\. Join
google, work hard, get some experience, make some friends, then 2\. Few months
(or years) later, look for better opportunity with a better pay. It would be
easier for you to find another job.

But, you should really consider other lifestyle factors:

1\. If you have a family 110k is way too low, as most likely your wife is not
going to be able to work.

2\. If you are single, you are more likely going to stay single. If you are in
a age (35) that are looking to find a long time partner to form a family,
dating in the valley is going to suck. I mean really really bad. SF is a bit
better, still not that great to find a quality life partner.

~~~
jscore
I couldn't agree more with #2. It's downright terrible.

~~~
davidw
He does (presumably) have a British accent though, which ought to count for
something in terms of standing out from the crowd.

~~~
tommizzle
Hah - The things James Bond has done for our country...

~~~
davidw
Not really James Bond, just the allure of something different. Same reason
people take more notice of an American in Italy. The important thing, I guess,
is to come from somewhere 'interesting' to people.

------
misterm
File this under "problems that I wish I had".

------
jimbobimbo
Just ask yourself a question: do you want to live in US for reason other than
working for Google? If yes, go for it - $110k for a start is a good salary (I
started from $60k in NJ few years back, single). Given that you'll be in a
Valley, have your visa transferred to someone else, if you don't like it at
Google, would not be a problem.

A caution: I hope you have at least master's degree, because in this case
you'll be able to start EB-2 GC process, which is way faster than EB-3.

------
sshah
As someone who is not working in Google, not in the Bay area, 33 and immigrant
- I would do it.

$110K is low for the valley. But, Google will be a good addition on my resume,
I will be in the heart of Silicon valley. I will LIVE software for however
long I stay here.

Work hard in the first year, once they like your work - ask for a raise or
fat(ter) bonus. Work hard in the second year. Move up. Work hard in the third
year. Ask for money again. Most probably they will be tired of you. Leave.....

------
Artagra
I'd go for it. Having two years of working for Google on your CV will open
doors in the future. Plus, you may find you love it and stay there for the
rest of your life!

One thing I would take note of, as someone not from the US - realise that the
US is very, very different to somewhere like the UK. In my limited
experiences, the similarities mask the differences.

------
karthikm
Google's offer: Useless. Moving to the bay area: Priceless. Go for it!

------
flannell
I'm guessing your no name poly is actually De Montfort university in
Leicester? It was a dump back in 1999 when I got my 2.1 CompSci degree. An old
friend of mine from uni moved from the UK to SanFran to work for Lucas Arts
and I think it was the best move he ever made. So, seems like a good move.
Good luck!

------
kral
My 2 cents: I know we're talking about real life and in real life you can't
eat only with dreams, but work for Google (or other $BigCompany) is life
changing... Think about how much you could gain in experience... And
experience is something you can "spend" without consume it.

------
somabc
I would do it. If you are worried about doors being closed in the UK by not
going to Oxford or Cambridge then working for Google (and in Silicon Valley no
less) will open up even more doors.

------
iamelgringo
I have no idea whether to take the gig or not, but just know that if you take
the job at Google, you're not going to be able to work on side projects in
your spare time.

California law states that as long as the person isn't in direct competition
with their employer, they can keep any IP they develop while not on company
time. If you work for Google, however, you work for a company who is trying to
organize the world's information. So, arguably, pretty much any code you write
in your spare time competes with Google.

~~~
lrm242
I'm sorry, but that isn't correct. California employment law is the most
liberal around when it comes to protecting an employees right to perform works
on their own time. As long as you don't build a competing search engine, write
a competitor to Google mail, etc you're fine. In fact, even if you did, it is
likely that Google won't care and won't sue, because the law leans towards the
employee in this case.

~~~
iamelgringo
Ummmm...

I have had a number of conversations with Google employees that have told me
that they've been prevented from working on outside projects because of this.

Whether Google is on the right side of the law, or not, that's another
conversation entirely, but what I'm telling you is from GOOG employees venting
to me about work. YMMV

------
jarsj
I am an X-Googler. It's a great company to work and what you see and learn
there will definitely add a lot of value to you for future.

Also, the actual money you will make at google will be more than your base
pay. The bonuses are good (I am not sure I can reveal the exact numbers here,
but read your offer letter carefully and make some min-max calculations, It
won't be hard for you to land up with an average).

Then there's free food and other benefits that you can google around to find
out.

------
jacquesm
Of course you should do it. Yes, Google is a large company. But they're one of
the most respected software companies in the world and even if longer term you
decide to part again just having them on your resume is going to make it worth
it, that's not counting the possibility to expand your network and the ability
to learn from some of the best minds on the planet when it comes to writing
software.

The salary should be the least of your concerns, that's short term thinking.

------
brg
This is in line with SWEIII offers. However, your experience should be enough
to be slotted into Senior, which will increase your salary and GSU's. If this
is a senior/slotting offer it is low.

If you come in at SWEIII you will be in the same buck as newly hired graduate
students, SWEII's who have had a lucky year, and lifers with no motivation.
There are others in that bucket, but those are the ones with whom you will be
incorrectly compared.

~~~
mulch
What base do grads start at?

~~~
brg
SWEII (Software Engineer 2). Management considers this a transitional level.
People are expected to move out of it quickly.

~~~
mulch
What I mean is base salary.

~~~
brg
It varies by location, glassdoor's values are accurate.

------
devmonk
The offer sounds good to me. In other parts of the country for an FTE, that's
not too shabby, and it will look loads better on your resume (depending on
what you'll be doing and how that fits with your goals) than other positions.
But, I'm concerned that you are asking HN. Don't take a job you'll hate, even
if it is for Google. It isn't worth it.

------
SanjayUttam
I say take it, it will likely be a great experience. Regarding salary: If you
feel it is a bit low see if they can increase a bit (especially if this is the
first number they're approached you with) Worse comes to worse, they say they
cannot give you more, and you still take it.

Oh yeah...and congratulations on the offer.

------
aaroneous
What're GSUs?

~~~
prodigal_erik
Apparently "Google Stock Units" are restricted stock rather than options. If
they vest over five years (I don't actually know but this is common
elsewhere), 200 shares will be an extra $20k/year or more. Well, unless their
stock tanks.

~~~
aaroneous
Thanks! I'm particularly amused that using google couldn't provide any help in
figuring that one out.

------
Spoutingshite
Go for it! I cant comment on the salary package but it sounds like a life
changing opportunity. Cease the day, fly the roost, grasp the nettle!

------
known
Depends on the project you're going work in Google.

~~~
joshu
Unlike most companies, you don't get to know that beforehand. This prevents
managers from hiring people who are just good enough for a specific role.

------
michaelhalligan
$110k seems a tad low for someone with over a decade's experience in the bay
area. I'd be looking for more around $150k/year in wage slavery as an overall
comp package (bonuses and expected stock sale value added to base salary)

~~~
enki
<http://payscale.com/> and <http://glassdoor.com/> suggest that the median is
lower, not higher.

But that's not even the point. With $110k you'll live more than great here,
and if you're good you can always find new opportunities or a raise.

Unless you have better alternatives, go for it - i'd trade a lot of income to
live here rather than back home :)

~~~
tomstuart
IANAIL, but I expect that being on (presumably) an H1B will severely limit the
OP's ability to shop around for new opportunities or raises.

~~~
davidw
Perhaps, but staying in the UK is in some ways even more limiting.

Having just gone on a trip to Ireland, I'd do it just to get away from the
dank darkness that pervades those northern lands:-)

~~~
jrockway
Can't UK citizens / permanent residents work anywhere in the EU?

~~~
davidw
Sure, but objectively, it's probably easier and more remunerative in many ways
to work for Google in the Bay Area than, say, seek out a job in Sicily, where
the weather is certainly wonderful, but there are not many IT jobs and they
generally aren't of the interesting variety (unless you did something, like,
say, create Redis, in which case you can happily stay in Sicily and hack on
your project:-). Not to mention the language barrier and cultural differences.

Our move from Padova to Innsbruck, Austria, 4 hours away by car, was far, far
more difficult than when I moved from Portland, Oregon to the Bay Area years
ago. For instance, there are no one-way rental trucks in Europe that I know
of, so if you have furniture or things to move, it's going to be expensive
and/or time-consuming.

~~~
mulch
Trucking is hidelously expensive on the continent. No idea why. Shipping will
be WAY cheaper in any port city. You'd be better off probably getting rid of
your stuff and just getting new stuff (used, Ikea, whatever).

~~~
davidw
Renting a van isn't _that_ expensive here. The problem is that you can't, say,
rent it in Innsbruck and drop it off in Padova, but you have to drive down to
Padova, rent the van, drive it back up to Innsbruck in the middle of the night
in a snow storm over the Brenner pass, with the unloaded rear wheels not
getting a lot of traction, load it up, and then drive it back down to Padova.

------
scg
Consider doing a startup. Most likely you'll be able to get a good job later
on if you change your mind.

If startups aren't your thing for now, that's OK. Get an offer from Facebook
and ask Google for a better deal.

It's great to strive for a better deal and lament about your GSUs, but I
wouldn't loose too much sleep on it. Money shouldn't be the first thing you
should worry about. IMHO Google is still one of the best companies to work
for. Yes, it's more like a corporation and less like a startup but it's still
a great place to be for an engineer.

