
Dijkstra: “You will be treated as grown-ups” - ColinWright
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD12xx/EWD1256.html
======
fnordfnordfnord
I try to treat my students the same way. The fact that almost no one does so
makes it tough. Average high school kids have a tough time adapting to it. But
when they do, as Dijkstra says, they become much more effective.

Sometimes there is a group that gets it right away, and runs with it, but it
usually takes some time.

There are usually a few who think they are smarter than average (they usually
are), that their intelligence will compensate (it rarely does), and that they
don't need to make any extra effort. They usually figure it out after a
semester.

I also had a class mutiny once. I had a couple of intelligent, but spoiled and
opinionated students who were vocally critical of my/this instructional style.
There was also a larger than usual number of dullards in the class, who were
easily led (by the dissenters). The self-nominated leaders managed to turn
most of the class' attitude sour. That was the worst semester I've had yet.
Everything became difficult. I had trouble maintaining my own discipline.

The real trick that I would like to learn, is how to turn more of the middle
and bottom tier of students into better students.

~~~
1123581321
What frustrates me as a student and sometimes teacher is that the role of even
the most engaged student cannot be expanded to do the opposite of mutiny:
engage the less able students in the class. Why is it that the relationship
between an engaged student and a teacher is an individual one? Can the student
become engaged with the _class_ of which the teacher is a part? I believe this
is the key to solving the problem you pose in your last sentence.

~~~
doki_pen
In the case of mutiny, it is in the leaders interest to engage with his fellow
student. In the case of the good student, he's competing with his fellow
student, so it's in his best interest not to help them succeed.

~~~
HarryHirsch
It's odd to think of one's fellow students as competitors instead of
colleagues. I would call this mindset pernicious, even perverted.

------
nugget
Why do we celebrate this theme of Professor as omnipotent, benevolent dictator
of the classroom? My last year in school the combined cost of tuition, books,
and room and board hit $40,000. At what point do you become not just a
student, but also a fee for service consumer, with an appropriate set of
expectations for some level of responsiveness and customer service?

~~~
GuiA
See, that's one of the problems I have with outrageous tuition: it creates
dumb expectations from students.

In most European countries, your education is quasi free, and as a result
students don't complain about professors not providing "customer service". You
go to the university to learn from some of the most eminent figures of your
field, people who have devoted their life to it, and you do as they say. If
you're not happy, well you can just leave. And sure, some of them are quirky
or do dumb stuff, but you're 19- you'll live. And TBH, even the professors I
had in college who exposed me to the most BS are nothing compared to some of
the BS I've experienced in the real world, with clients/bosses/etc.

If you're going to University of Phoenix, sure, feel entitled to some degree
of "customer service". But if you're studying under Dijkstra, just suck it up
and soak in as much as you can, even if the "customer service" leaves to be
desired. Again, you're 19- you'll live.

Sorry, this is a bit abrasive, but I've been on multiple sides of the equation
(student in EU university, student in US university, TA in EU university, TA
in US university), and the students who say things like "I pay tuition, I'm a
paying customer, professors have to do X/Y/Z for me" are rarely the ones at
the top of the class (and rarely aspire to do so).

~~~
6d0debc071
No, god no. This idea that researchers should be teaching is just horrible,
they're not significantly overlapping skill sets. Unless I have a specific
research interest, I'm going to learn a lot more from someone who knows the
material I'm trying to learn and has been trained in how to teach effectively
than I am from someone who knows the material I'm trying to learn and a lot of
other material that's not relevant.

It should be that you do your basic degrees with people who are primarily
teachers and then you go and do your more research based work with people who
are good at that sort of research, if you want to get into that.

The other way around is just people wasting their talents and their student's
time by being really inefficient.

#

The rest of this just seems to be, 'oh they're 19, they'll live... oh we all
have to put up with bullshit.' Maybe they will, maybe we do. It's a fully
general argument for anything that's not going to kill you.

Life is shit - therefore don't go along with and keep quiet about the shit
bits or it'll keep being shit.

~~~
GuiA
Your argument does not take into account the fact that a significant number of
researchers, including world class ones, enjoy/love to teach, and even the
basic classes. For many (myself included), it comes hand in hand.

I agree that researchers who don't want to teach shouldn't be forced to, but
that's the extent of it. I've been to 3 universities in 3 different countries,
and the number of bad teachers I've had is much lower than good or excellent
ones.

(of course this post and my previous one refer to computer science/math
academia, since that's what I'm familiar with)

~~~
elbear
If they love to teach, they should also get good at it, because being a good
researcher doesn't necessarily mean that you're a good teacher. I'm saying
this because, at least from the OP, Dijkstra doesn't strike me as a terribly
great teacher.

~~~
GuiA
How do you measure "good at teaching"?

~~~
bennyg
The first key is the ability to recognize that a student or class of students
is not understanding an explanation, and generalize it further or change the
example to make it more clear. Do that ad infinitum (a really good teacher can
get it right the first time).

The second key is the ability to use examples that pupils find relevant and
introduce topics that might not fit directly in the class description, but
enhance overall knowledge with the intended discussion's knowledge.

The third key is intangible. And that's the ability to make learning
interesting, if not downright fun.

~~~
speleding
That definition would hold for the kind of teaching where the teacher
transfers knowledge and skills to the pupil.

Dijkstra was probably the type of professor that aims to inspire/provoke
students into teaching themselves.

I have a degree from a universities in Europe and one from the US and the
European one had a much stronger emphasis on asking students to teach
themselves (it was a Dutch university, Dijkstra was Dutch so I expect that's
where he got the attitude), the US one had more "hand holding" in explaining
what you needed to do.

As an aside, the drop out rate at the Dutch university was over 30%, while at
the American university I think maybe 2 people dropped out in my year. So
while there is some consensus that teaching yourself is better than being
taught it's certainly not very efficient.

~~~
oblique63
> _So while there is some consensus that teaching yourself is better than
> being taught it 's certainly not very efficient._

So under which conditions is expecting your students to teach themselves
better for _them_ exactly? It seems to me that there's some sort of selection
bias going on here if the best students are the ones that successfully teach
themselves, and then reflect on the fact that they were able to teach
themselves as the _cause_ for why they were able to learn so well. I'm pretty
sure that if you stuck a self-learning student in a hand-held environment he
would learn equally well, but might risk learning less due to the natural time
cost such a teaching style has. The logical conclusion for this are the whole
'advanced placement' classes and such, because like it or not, not all
students are going to be equally well-suited to teach themselves, and thus
endure poor teaching. A self-learner meanwhile, _will_ be able to endure such
poor teaching, regardless of whether they're even aware of how bad the
teaching is.

Teaching is not a fixed methodology, it's really an art that's quite broad in
scope and requires honing in on each specific batch of students' needs. If
you're going for 'mentor' style inspiration teaching, great -- but make sure
you're applying it to a student that'll be receptive to it. If they're not,
then maybe try to figure out how you can make them be receptive to it, but I
guarantee you that it's going to require some level of hand-holding at the
onset; and if you're a good teacher, you should be able to pick up on that.

~~~
speleding
Self learning allegedly yields better understanding and retention then other
types of learning, so in that regard students who do not drop out would be
better off.

I agree that not every student may be able to get into the self-learning mode,
although the success of Montesorri schools show that most kids can at least be
able to at some level. If you are smart enough to make it into one of
Dijkstra's classes, and aspire to comprehend the subject matter he teaches,
then you should not need to much hand holding.

------
HarryHirsch
Dijkstra describes when instruction at a university ought to look like.
However, this requires an experienced lecturer and properly enculturated
students, and where do you get them from if you haven't got them already?

 _If I go too fast, it is your duty to slow me down_

Haven't we all met inexperienced TAs who mention the salient points but not
what makes them salient, and when you call them out they hide behind their
great self-confidence?

 _If I give homework, I give you tasks of which I believe that working on them
is very instructive for you_

I think everyone has had their share of ill-set or plain pointless homework at
uni.

 _I will not use the overhead projector_

A colleague had a student mutiny because he refused to put up his lecture
slides for download. The students were complaining that they had to copy
lecture notes from a friend if they didn't show up.

~~~
dman
I honestly never understood the TA thing. Why not just reach out to the
professor in their open hours or before / after the lecture?

~~~
munin
this presumes that:

\- professors have open hours

\- professors can be found before or after the lecture

\- professors respond to your email

\- professors ever go to their offices

~~~
PhearTheCeal
Which is ultimately a presumption that the professor still cares about
teaching after they have earned tenure.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Tenure schmenure, if you want profs who do interesting research, they'll need
some time to tend to that research.

------
vlasev
Great person != great teacher. To be honest, if you watch [1] his lecture, he
doesn't grab me as a good teacher. In fact I would probably fall asleep in his
lectures. I've seen a lot of professors and how they teach during my undergrad
and graduate mathematics education. It's not uncommon to witness a professor
who has numerous awards for their research but who is awful as a teacher. It
could be lack of motivation on their part for all I know. Dijkstra could be
the very best out there in some matters but it doesn't mean we should take
after his style of teaching.

To be more specific, Dijkstra's organizational matters make him seem to me as
somewhat cold and detached. Watching his lectures on youtube confirms this
feeling. He also TEACHES in that way and frankly this is not the best way to
get knowledge into students' heads. Nor will students ever feel like he really
cares.

Perhaps such a person will be more engaged if he teaches a graduate course
with topics from his research but from what I've seen, this is not always the
case. In fact, the worst course I ever had was by a professor with numerous
awards, who's also great at giving presentations and talks, but who taught his
research topics like absolute crap.

[1][http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNCAFcAbSTg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNCAFcAbSTg)

~~~
ColinWright

        > In fact I would probably fall
        > asleep in his lectures.
    

It's not his job to entertain you. It's his job to make the material available
for you to study and assimilate, and to provide insight you would find
difficult to gain simply by reading from a text. You falling asleep is your
problem, not his.

Everything you say sounds plausible, but a recent paper[0] shows that two
teachers delivering identical material, one in an organized and engaging
manner, the other disorganized and unengaging, received exactly the
evaluations you'd expect, but their styles resulted in exactly the opposite.

In particular, lecturer A was engaging and organized, and got excellent
evaluations. Lecturer B was disorganized and unengaging. And yet in subsequent
courses it was the students of lecturer B who went on to get the higher
grades.

Thinking someone is an excellent lecturer is not the same as being taught
effectively.

[0] HN submission[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6041803](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6041803)

[1] Direct link:
[http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/scarrell/profqual2.pdf](http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/scarrell/profqual2.pdf)

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
>Thinking someone is an excellent lecturer is not the same as being taught
effectively.

This a thousand times. Most student evaluations are garbage.

>It's not his job to entertain you. It's his job to make the material
available for you to study and assimilate, and to provide insight you would
find difficult to gain simply by reading from a text. You falling asleep is
your problem, not his.

No, but at the same time, we can and should look to optimize the ways in which
we deliver material.

~~~
vlasev
I agree that student evaluations are mostly garbage but they have saved me
from bad professors at times. You just have to know what you are looking for.
The reason evaluations are bad is that you can't just put a point scale on a
professor and hope things will go alright. If you look at ratemyproffessor
you'll see a lot of people giving bad rating because tests and homeworks were
hard. This is BAD. You'll also see a lot of good ratings because the professor
was easy. This is also bad.

You want to look at the ratings that talk about the teacher's engagement in
the teaching process, not in how difficult their material is. Case in point -
I had an amazing Group Theory teacher and the assignments and final were
really difficult. You'd expect that some people will not distinguish the two
aspects of teaching and slap on a bad rating because it's so difficult. Others
will see the difference and give a good rating for teaching and describe the
course as difficult.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
I meant the evaluations conducted by the school. The questionnaires are
usually terrible, and the students don't know how to answer them.

>ratemyprofessor

ROFL. If I ever get an overall good rating on ratemyprofessor, I will
seriously start to question myself. That thing is a popularity contest. Some
of the absolute worst on there have great ratings. Some of the comments might
be useful, but that's about it.

------
tokenadult
The comments here are very illuminating about attitudes that some learners
have to learning. Thanks to Colin for sharing the link.

Some instructors here ask how to set expectations so that students will be
ready to take responsibility for their learning and work hard before giving
up. This is a problem that consumes my attention as I offer advanced
mathematics lessons (a prealgebra course using the Art of Problem Solving
textbook

[http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/viewitem.php?item=p...](http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/viewitem.php?item=prealgebra)

for third, fourth, and fifth graders). Many American elementary school pupils
are not used to challenging mathematics lessons. I have to establish
expectations appropriately to have any hope of success in class. (And I have
enjoyed some gratifying successes with many of my alumni over the years.) To
inform parents (and their children) in advance about what my classes are like,
I have prepared some FAQ documents about mathematics learning

"Problems versus Exercises"

[http://www.epsiloncamp.org/ProblemsversusExercises.php](http://www.epsiloncamp.org/ProblemsversusExercises.php)

"Repetition and Practice"

[http://www.epsiloncamp.org/RepetitionPractice.php](http://www.epsiloncamp.org/RepetitionPractice.php)

"Links About Learning Mathematics"

[http://www.epsiloncamp.org/LearningMathematics.php](http://www.epsiloncamp.org/LearningMathematics.php)

and

"The Explorer is the Person who is Lost, or Courage in the Face of Stupidity"

[http://www.epsiloncamp.org/CourageandStupidity.php](http://www.epsiloncamp.org/CourageandStupidity.php)

to help the learners get ready for the delight of taking on tough learning
challenges. The last of the four FAQs is based on an inspirational speech
given in various forms in various places by mathematician Paul Zeitz, a coach
of the 1996 United States "dream team" to the International Mathematical
Olympiad (IMO), still the only IMO team ever to achieve perfect scores among
all six team members. His key word from his speech is featured prominently in
the FAQ and in first-day-of-class messages I give live to all my new students.
It is now the "inspirational word" for many of my students as they grow up
into adult life.

~~~
impendia
> 1996 United States "dream team"

1994 :)

~~~
patcon
> > 1996 United States "dream team"

> 1994 :)

1992 :)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_United_States_men's_Olympi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_United_States_men's_Olympic_basketball_team)

~~~
mturmon
1994.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Zeitz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Zeitz)

------
hypersoar
I have a professor at a large state school who taught a couple of large (i.e.
multiple hundreds of students) calculus classes a few years back. He assigned
homework, but didn't make it part of their grade. It was just practice (the
homework was through an online system). Lectures weren't required. Lots of
students get stuck in these classes who shouldn't be, and he felt that they
shouldn't be forced to sit through lectures that were a waste of their time.
He left it up to them to decide whether they needed the lectures or not.

The result? Most of the students decided that they didn't need to do anything
for the class aside from take the final exam. Most of them failed, including
almost half of the engineering students (who, as a result, couldn't finish an
engineering degree in 4 years), and there was a university-wide outcry.

~~~
chacham15
Im sorry, but if you think that you can NOT attend a class and do well, you
deserve whatever grade you get. It is not the teachers fault for not forcing
you to go to class.

~~~
thrownaway2424
Well, I don't know. I had an upper division thermodynamic class where the
professor was an admitted bad lecturer. He had two policies. One was if you
had an A grade already based on the mid-term exam and weekly assignments, you
need not take the final exam. The other was if your final exam grade was
higher than your mid-term + homework, you get the grade from the final. I
personally rarely attended the lectures and walked out with an A prior to the
final. Friends of mine also did not attended, but passed the final exam. A
number of people who regularly attended the lectures failed the class.

From this experience I formed the belief that a university lecturer can
actually be counter-productive to the students learning the subject.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
>upper division thermodynamic class ... I personally rarely attended the
lectures and walked out with an A prior to the final.

You must either be quite a good student or that was quite an easy/poor class.
Personally, I try to make sure students have as close to a knowable outcome by
mid-terms, so they can drop with a W.

>where the professor was an admitted bad lecturer.

Sometimes this is a ploy in attempt to get students to take some ownership in
the process. To paraphrase "Don't expect me to magic this crap into your head
with my gift of prose."

>From this experience I formed the belief that a university lecturer can
actually be counter-productive to the students learning the subject.

No no no. Maybe those who didn't already know thermodynamics, or have the
discipline to teach themselves felt it was important to attend lecture.

~~~
VLM
"or that was quite an easy/poor class."

That sounds like an easy class to test out of. If the prof provides an entire
semesters homework, and you can provably ace "class A amplifier bias circuit
design" without attending the lecture that supposedly teaches you how, then
don't go. I never skipped entire classes but I certainly skipped lectures
where I could prove to myself I knew the material.

This works really well in most engineering classes where you can check your
work. In fluffy stuff like English Lit being "right" means knowing the prof's
politics and personal belief system, so its a bit harder to know if you're
right or not, so you can't skip that lecture.

Think you know "integration by parts"? Already did the homework and got it all
eventually correct? Then not much point in attending lecture that day. This
has a bonus in that you get a lot more out of a lecture if you already
struggled with the topic for a couple hours rather than walking in cold.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
"That sounds like an easy class to test out of."

I would support that idea for quite a lot of the curriculum.

~~~
VLM
CLEP tests rocked

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_Level_Examination_Progr...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_Level_Examination_Program)

They're like $80 now... in the olden days they were something like $10.

A truly excellent startup idea which no one has apparently tried (that I know
of) is a MOOC focused on the CLEP "curriculum", basically a semi-continuous
monster study group. There's a giant hole in the MOOC industry for testing and
credentialism. Well, there you go, take your CLEP test and they handle all the
testing and stuff.

This also shows the ripoff of some industry specific cert exams. Why did a
Cisco CCNP Routing test cost something like $200 a decade ago for a total cost
for a CCNP of about $800 but a CLEP test in 2013 is only $80? I know there's
economies of scale but this is ridiculous. Outsourced reasonable priced
industry certs is another MOOC startup ripe for massive disruption.

------
tel
I've been reading the EWD archives the last few months. I'm coming to find
Djikstra to be a role model. I think I would do almost anything to have two
hours of his undivided attention today.

~~~
geekam
I follow this Twitter account and it helps me discover him more -
[https://twitter.com/DijkstraQuotes](https://twitter.com/DijkstraQuotes)

~~~
tel
Me too : )

------
cschmidt
In case you miss the link in the upper right, his EWD manuscript archive is
here:

[http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/welcome.html](http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/welcome.html)

~~~
evanmoran
Reading these EWD manuscripts are the reason I believe Dijkstra's lectures
would be life changing. A truly wonderful read.

For most professors this format would be terribly difficult. It is hard to
teach. It is hard to listen and understand where students are and take them
further.

Also, if I may, I'm struck by how similar pg's writing is to Dijkstra.
Something about the rhythm of it and its directness.

------
bryceneal
* If I am unable to find you in the classroom. I will proceed to search every adjacent desk recursively until I find you.

------
stiff
You can see how well that worked out in practice here (video lectures by
Dijkstra, not from any course though):

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNCAFcAbSTg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNCAFcAbSTg)

and here:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nHv5MUw7Nc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nHv5MUw7Nc)

------
rumbler
Read Dijkstra, read Dijkstra. He is the master of us all.

~~~
ColinWright
For those who don't recognise this reference, it is a paraphrase of Laplace,
who said,

    
    
        "Read Euler, read Euler.
         He is the master of us all."

~~~
stiff
And the irony is that Euler was a really poor mathematician by Dijkstra's
standards...

~~~
ColinWright
Interesting you should say that - do you have some supporting evidence? Could
you point us at the material from which you draw that conclusion?

~~~
stiff
Read the following EWD to get sneak-peak at Dijkstra's view of mathematics:

[http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD12xx/EW...](http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD12xx/EWD1268.html)

Dijkstra's dream was reducing mathematics to formal logic, Euler's approach
was almost on the opposite end of the spectrum, he used a lot of intuitive
arguments sometimes dabbling in areas that didn't get a solid logical
foundation for centuries to come.

~~~
ColinWright
It's certainly true that a lot of Euler's arguments were incomplete and non-
rigorous by today's standards, but in many cases they were _way_ ahead of his
time. As you say, he was getting results in areas where complete and formal
foundations didn't get laid for centuries.

And yet he seemed pretty much always to be right. He didn't fall into any of
the traps that await the unwary, and which are the usual reasons for formality
being required. It seems clear that he really did understand what was
happening at a deeper level, even if the arguments he gave were, in some
cases, described now as "superbly reckless."

I'm not convinced Dijkstra would've considered Euler to have been a poor
mathematician. Now I wish I'd asked when I had the chance.

~~~
stiff
There was a lot of irony in my comments that I think not everyone understood.
What I am really saying is that everything Dijkstra wrote on the topic of
doing good mathematics contradicts the possibility of someone like Euler
existing, yet he did exist and did work of unmatched quality. Whatever value
might Dijkstra's work ultimately have I have no idea, but I find his
insistence of his way being the only way appalling and his writings get really
arrogant at times where he picks some very formal nit and makes it appear like
a great intellectual achievement.

------
gcb0
Knowing academics in a few countries, i can see how those notes are needed in
the us.

Students here are really passives and have weird expectations about course
work. And teachers usually don't even show up at their classes leaving all the
teaching to TAs.

------
kqr2
Are there any books or lecture notes for the class? It sounds pretty
interesting.

------
10098
This is the way we were taught pretty much every subject in our university. It
doesn't work. What happens is, nobody studies anything during the semester
(because nobody checks their progress), then there's a one or two week cram
session before the oral exam, and after that you forget everything forever.

P.S.: I'm not from US, in our country you could get education for free

------
kenster07
Just because someone is brilliant does not mean they are a good educator.

------
peterwwillis
It's funny that he has to explicitly state that. It pretty much implies he
knows they are _not_ grown-ups. I imagine the average college student being
scared shitless of interrupting the highly-esteemed professor to ask him wtf
he's talking about.

------
clubhi
It seems more cost efficient to just read one of this books and pay him
$500/hour for private tutoring.

------
mathattack
Has anyone here had Dijkstra as a teacher?

This note could be the intro to a phenomenal learning experience, or a pompous
self-important jerk. Given his impact to the field, it could actually go
either way.

Can anyone here speak to personal experience with the professor?

------
soheil
I'd imagine almost any other 70 old year teaching a math class would pass
around a very similar syllabus.

