
Achtung Baby by Sara Zaske, Reviewed - okket
https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/02/achtung-baby-by-sara-zaske-reviewed.html
======
gumby
I can testify to this. My poor kid was shocked at how rigid the US high school
was (after being in a German system), how he could get in trouble for having
hints like matches, and how unhappy and stressed his classmates were (and how
little they had — he didn’t yet know that “freedom”is a reflexive talisman of
American identity). In Germany, as the book review says, even Nursery school
kids have access to knives, hot glue guns, splinters, etc. 8 year olds who can
weld aren’t uncommon.

But those are symptoms of a philosophical difference. Kids learn _very_ strict
rules about behavior (stand behind that yellow line next to the U-bahn! Only
cross the street with the light!) and are trained (it’s the only word for it)
on how to ride a bike safely and follow the traffic laws. _Then_ , given a
framework, they have a lot more freedom than in the us...but the framework is
quite rigid. In the US kids don’t even learn how to use cutlery, much less how
to weld, somtheir world is, ironically, more circumscribed.

~~~
lkrubner
I was in Germany this summer. My friend and I went to visit her parents. Her
parents wanted me to see a historic town nearbye. We got in the car. The
father drove down the road at 190 kilometers per hour. The other cars were
also going fast. I saw cars at an intersection make turns, in front of other
cars, that I would never do in the USA, because I would never trust the other
drivers to behave correctly. But in Germany the drivers are very well trained.

My friend got her driver's license in Germany when she was an adult. It was
very expensive and she had to go through several courses. She had to prove
that she could drive at night and during the day, and in a dense urban center,
and also out on the highways, away from any cities. She was given multiple
tests. It was a serious training effort.

This is the paradox of the American emphasis on freedom. The attitude tends to
be juvenile. The American mindset, at its crudest, is something like, "You got
to give me a car, man, because I'm free, man, I've got freedom, so give me a
the right to drive man, authority sucks, man, the government sucks, I'm free
so I can drive, you can't stop me, man." So the drivers are untrained, so the
government responds by treating all drivers as if they are badly behaving
children.

In Germany the attitude is "We (the government) will train you very well, and
then we will trust you to be adults who can make wise choices."

One thing I never saw in Germany: cops hiding behind trees, hoping to catch
people who were speeding. Traffic cops are very common in the USA, but
basically unknown in Germany, since the major highways don't have speed
limits.

Another thing I noticed in Germany, where there is a speed limit, people drive
that limit, and not 5 kilometers above the speed limit. The drivers make the
assumption that the government must have had some good reason for imposing a
speed limit.

~~~
thg
> One thing I never saw in Germany: cops hiding behind trees, hoping to catch
> people who were speeding. Traffic cops are very common in the USA, but
> basically unknown in Germany, since the major highways don't have speed
> limits.

You won't see them much on the motorway, since for most of it there isn't a
speed limit, but radar controls in towns and rural areas are somewhat common.

> Another thing I noticed in Germany, where there is a speed limit, people
> drive that limit, and not 5 kilometers above the speed limit. The drivers
> make the assumption that the government must have had some good reason for
> imposing a speed limit.

You'll literally only ever see that when A) the driver is some old person
driving carefully, or B) the area is common for radar controls, or has radar
traps installed. The unwritten rule is to drive 10km/hour faster, according to
the speedometer, than the speed limit allows, which works out to ~5km/hour
over the limit, due to the way speedometers are calibrated.

~~~
joezydeco
The autobahns _do_ have limits that change dynamically from "infinite" to
"some value less than infinite" due to weather, construction, congestion,
accidents, etc.

And there _are_ speed cameras in some of these stretches. I have nasty
collection letters from Hertz and Avis to confirm it.

------
jernfrost
Much the same could be said about native Norway in comparison to the US or UK.
There is a documentary about identical twins from China. One ends up in Norway
the other in the US. They meet many years later. You see quite radically
different child raising. Norwegians focus on independence and freedom for the
child. The Americans focus on lots of grownup controlled activities.

My feeling is Norwegians focus on independence while Americans focus on
ambition. Americans are more focused on their childrens enrichment and making
them perform.

I notice e.g. from American relatives how much earlier they get school work,
tests and academic work. Norwegian childhood is more play and social
interaction oriented. We focus inteaching children self control.

When I came to the US I was surprised how out of controll American teenagers
are. They don’t seem to function without lots of rules and regulations. They
don’t seem used to regulating and controlling themselves.

I think this creates a society were nobody fully trust each other and
compensate with lots of strict rules.

E.g. American police seem a lot more authoritarian than police in nordic
countries.

~~~
mercutio2
Your sociological explanations may be accurate, but it’s probably worth noting
that very low police:population ratios in the US combined with a gargantuan
supply of unrestricted handgun possession in the hands of the populous is also
a strong contributor to bunker mentality from the police.

 _[Edit: I see that Norway has a similarly low police:population ratio, so
that observation isn’t really relevant for comparisons with Norway or the rest
of Scandinavia. My error!]_

Also, Norwegian border patrol agents seemed pretty damned authoritarian in my
experience, so my personal contact with law enforcement doesn’t match yours
for the respective countries. /end anecdote

~~~
microtherion
Why do you consider the police:population ratio in the US "very low"? It seems
it's pretty much middle of the pack, and arguably on the high side for Western
Democracies:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers)

~~~
mercutio2
Those numbers are state level police numbers.

Aggregate numbers for actual officers on a beat are quite different for large
countries.

Most of Western Europe (according to the studies I’ve read) have significantly
higher numbers of police in the community.

To answer your larger question: Humans don’t respond well to small probability
high negative outcomes. One common theory in criminality is that we want to
optimize people’s sense that they’ll be caught, and then give smaller, more
certain punishments. Basically, ideally we’d have many more police, many fewer
prisons.

------
Mashimo
>Later that year, Sophia and the rest of her Kita class take part in a
gleefully parent-free sleepover. A sleepover! At school! For a 4-year-old!

German here, can someone explain to me what's weird/bad/uncommon about this?

It's still supervised.

~~~
reificator
In North America any adult that is not the parent is a potential kidnapping
rapist, doubly so if they're male.

In Canada, child services were called on a mother of three for letting her
children play outside in their fenced backyard while watching from the
window.[1]

Humans aren't equipped to really comprehend a 24-hour global news cycle.
Things that are common and deadly are deemphasized and things that are rare
are raised to panic inducing levels of fear. Dangers to children get extra
attention.

[1]: [https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/manitoba-cfs-will-
not-e...](https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/manitoba-cfs-will-not-erase-
file-of-mother-who-lets-kids-play-in-backyard-1.2871900)

~~~
Mashimo
>In North America any adult that is not the parent is a potential kidnapping
rapist

But the adults at the sleepover are the same as the adults that watch the kids
during daytime :/

>In Canada, child services were called on a mother of three for letting her
children play outside in their fenced backyard while watching from the window.

When I played in the sandbox my father could not see me from the house. Just
our dog, and the dog would watch me :) So if he saw the dog he know I was ok.

~~~
slaunchwise
We don't deserve dogs.

------
cromwellian
Every few weeks there’s an article that suggests we either need to copy the
European school system or the Korean/Chinese one.

This particular author seems to be projecting her own Tiger Mom ideas into
most of the country, but I think helicopter parenting is highly regional, and
has been different at different times. In more rural areas, among working
class or lower class kids, parents were generally less intensively involved
and kids have more freedom relative to suburbia IMHO. I was born in 71, and
pretty much from age 7 I can remember saying bye to my mom after getting home
from school and going out to play all day by myself with no oversight.

It is tru these days America d are more paranoid of sex predators, because our
news media has hyped up crime over the last two decades and made everyone
scared, of course there is some truth to it because crime statistics are
generally higher here than in Europe, but again, it’s very regional with rates
fluctuating between the safest European levels and looking like Honduras in
some spots.

Americans do send kids for overnight stays, typically during summer in camps.
I sent my kids away for two weeks to sleep outdoors under the stars, with no
tech allowed for example. But it usually isn’t run by schools, our schools are
too afraid of being sued or protested by parents these days to do anything.

------
slaunchwise
Here's a revolution that actually starts at home. Government policy aside,
Americans are free to follow much of the German advice if they choose. Treat
your kids as if their lives are primarily theirs, not yours. Let them take
risks (for themselves, not others) and bear consequences. Exult with them when
those risks are successful. Above all be a role model. This is all really easy
to contemplate, but very hard to do because it is isolating. In my suburban
parenting experience, we are a competitively paranoid nation. So many people
raise their kids as if they're in the twin towers and they are totally going
to know when to press that elevator button to get out safely. We do not have
to be that way.

------
joelgrus
You _can_ find people pushing back against this in America. My daughter, for
instance, attends a Sudbury School, where the kids make the rules and decide
how to spend their own time:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school)

She loves the school, and in my opinion it's been great for her. But almost
everyone I describe the school to finds it terrifically weird and frightening.

~~~
whatshisface
The biggest reason people think this kind of thing is scary? They're
remembering back to highschool when they had to march through math while being
taught by people who barely understood it. They know they _never_ would have
done it without having been forced, and that idea kind of leaks backwards to
early education.

There's a mythical "self-driven and exploratory" math education out there, but
the cold reality is while essentially anyone would be able to supervise a
journey through colors and counting only very few have even _seen_ what's good
about math. (Moreover, what small fraction of them would be willing to teach
teenagers?)

------
redleggedfrog
This, to a lesser degree, can be found in the United States, if you can find
the right place. I know because I speak from experience. I raised two sons in
a community that allowed them exercise personal freedom and benefit from a
scholastic experience similar to what is discussed in the article (I have not
read the book). Ours is not the only such place, as I have friends who have
found them as well.

Kids get to school on their own from all over town, by bike, bus, or walk,
even in the early grades. Summers are pretty much a cacophony of kid activity
until 10PM (or later). No one thinks twice about kids being out on their own.

My sons regaled me of stories of setting things on fire in chemistry class,
field trips where kids fell in the creek (termed Lessons in Hypothermia), and
the cool tools available in jewelry class, of all things.

It would seem to me these communities are smaller (10-20K) and politically
progressive. Ours has a tax just to fund schools. You have to have a town that
is willing to invest in the children and can attract good teachers. Even the
non-secular people are fairly progressive as well.

I couldn't really have asked for much better living in the United States. Both
sons are off to college and happy as can be, so I am grateful they got the
community upbringing that they did.

One of the things that might be considered a drawback is preparation for the
"real-world." When my oldest went off to college he had a difficult time
adjusting to people. The lack of self control, respect for the law, willful
ignorance, and just plain meanness, was surprising to him. It makes it
difficult to try and nudge him to experience the greater world at large.

Another drawback is expense. The cost of living is high. A house here is fully
$100,000-$150,000 more than a similar house in a town 15 miles away. This
creates a dichotomy where families want to live here, but often can't afford
it. Low to mid income housing is a politically hot topic.

~~~
rayiner
i don’t think “politically progressive” is a determinative. The DC suburbs
skew extremely left, by are oppressive as hell for children. Some parents
recently got CPS sicced on them for letting their 8 year old walk less than a
mile to school.

~~~
redleggedfrog
While I'm sure there are lots of politically progressive places that are
problems, I can't imagine having a community similar to ours without it. We're
an island of progressive surrounded by numerous similar sized towns that are
decidedly conservative and have more community problems and are less
attractive academically. But they're less expensive to live in, too.

~~~
zeveb
> While I'm sure there are lots of politically progressive places that are
> problems, I can't imagine having a community similar to ours without it.

There are a number of traditionalist conservative intentional communities
doing much the same things. It's kinda like with homeschoolers: the left-wing
& right-wing homeschoolers end up doing many similar things, and are different
from the mainstream public-schoolers in similar ways.

~~~
zaphar
Homeschooling is pretty bifurcated too.

I was homeschooled and my parents gave me a lot of freedom in learning and
play. They definitely weren't helicopter parents. We had the cops called on us
many times by people who wondered why we were roaming the streets during
school hours. (We had already completed our work for the day. That was the
deal.)

I spent hours playing in creeks or racing bikes in neighborhood woods.

But there were other homeschooling families we knew who kept their children
cloistered and firmly under parental supervision. Those kids grew up with a
very different experience.

------
okket
May also be of interest: A short (12 mins) documentary about a school in New
Zealand where are no rules during recess.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI)

~~~
telesilla
The last 15 seconds is brilliant.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI&t=11m40s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI&t=11m40s)

A young girl gets stuck up a tree, and asks for help which is (kindly) denied,
the caretaker watching from a distance. She gets herself down, and promptly
climbs up the tree again. The childhood we should all have!

------
gambiting
On the other hand, in my experience(and I welcome German people to chime in
and dispel this notion), German child raising is very hands-off and devoid of
any warmth. Yes, kids are given a lot of freedom, but are also expected to
keep to their own devices vast majority of the time. When the parent comes
back home, they don't think about doing activities _with_ the child - quick
chat about how is school, and then don't bother me for the rest of the
evening. And it's not bad parenting or parents not caring - the people I met
genuienly expect kids to be able to occupy their own time and the notion that
they need family support apart from the material one is almost slightly weird
to them. From my observations, it results in people who are fantastically
independent and confident, but who can also be emotionally distant to
everything.

Again, this is just an anecdote of my own experience.

~~~
thomasz
Yes, as a rule of thumb, we live through emotionally starved childhoods which
causes us to become emotionally detached automatons whose only joy in live is
producing cars and occasionally waging war against France, which is always
good clean fun until you guys decide to show up.

Kidding aside, I think there are two problems with your interpretation: For
once, if you rank acceptance of emotional display on a scale going from Russia
to America, you will find us somewhere close to Russia. Here, typical American
displays of friendliness ("I'm so happy to see you!", "you guys should totally
come over to our place sometimes") are grossly inappropriate, and in some
areas (customer servic[1]) they border on being sociopathic, as long as isn't
meant literally. But this is just a cultural difference, not something that
hints at emotional damage. Russians can laugh, Germans can be friendly and
Americans can be reserved or grumpy. It's just that there are huge differences
in terms of the social setting in which those things are deemed acceptable.

As a second note, there are obviously very diverse approaches to parenting in
Germany as well as very differently skilled parents. There are caring and
loving parents as well as emotionally distant narcissists. I'm very
uncomfortable with you attributing such things to a culturally determined
approach to parenting instead of looking at individual factors. What you _can_
actually do is looking at how things like independence, discipline,
athleticism and so forth as well as individual practices like spanking are
valued. Some of the results might be very surprising.

[1] The story about German customers calling the police because they were
feeling stalked by wal-mart employees trying to help them with bringing their
groceries to their cars is legendary.

~~~
preordained
>I'm very uncomfortable with you attributing such things to a culturally
determined approach to parenting instead of looking at individual factors.

You should thank God you aren't American...it seems everyone else thinks they
know exactly what makes us tick, and (as in this thread?) aren't shy at all
about making sweeping generalizations about us.

~~~
jacquesm
Germany doesn't export it's culture, it exports mostly its products. Contrary
to the USA that exports its culture wherever it can. So it should not be a
surprise that 'everyone else' thinks that they know what makes Americans tick,
it's just that their picture is going to be centered on whatever Hollywood
wants to radiate rather than actual reality.

That said - and having spent a good bit of time in the US - there are quite a
few things that Hollywood unfortunately portrays quite accurately.

------
ggm
Although written from a us mother's experience I suspect there are echoes for
many cultures. "My year of living Danishly" by Helen Russell (sans Child)
covers much the same experiential situation for a British couple in Denmark
for instance.

------
Tade0
One thing I would like to point out is that this is rather an European thing
than specifically German.

Aside from playing with fire in school many of these experiences were my own
and were the norm.

------
russellbeattie
Another article comparing a geographically huge country of 323 million people
consisting of varied ethnic backgrounds, to a country a fraction of the size,
population and diversity. Compound this with the fact that at least 62,985,134
Americans are clueless, vapid morons. Comparing how those idiots raise their
children to anyone else on earth isn't going to reflect well on the U.S. as a
whole, regardless.

