
Beer - mathattack
http://annelibby.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/beer/
======
tptacek
Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment?
That's what I think it is.

Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it. We've got
quite a lot of beer in our Chicago office (we haul crates from Russian River
and Three Floyds and Jolly Pumpkin). But nobody drinks while they work, and
nobody drinks whole bottles; we open a bottle and a bunch of people taste. If
it's Friday, we might open a couple bottles.

I can't imagine this creating a problem. For one thing, nobody's getting
drunk. For another, nobody is OK with disrupting anyone else's work. And
finally, I don't think many people here would be sanguine about seeing someone
get harassed. On the other hand, maybe that's because so many of us are
parents.

Maybe there's an argument that your culture needs to be mature enough to
handle beer, and maybe there's an argument that if you've got kegs and people
are drinking during the working afternoon, that's a sign that maybe the
maturity isn't there.

~~~
bambax
> _Like a lot of things, I think porn is fine if you 're adult about it. We've
> got quite a lot of porn in our Chicago office..._

> _Like a lot of things, I think guns are fine if you 're adult about it.
> We've got quite a lot of guns in our Chicago office..._

(I'm sorry, did I misquote you?) Just because some things are fine if you're
adult about it, doesn't make them appropriate at the office.

Why would you have alcohol in an office?

> _But nobody drinks while they work (...) so many of us are parents_

So they're at the office, not working, and drinking beer. If their work is
done (it has to be since you can't work _after_ beer) why don't they go home
to their family and kids?

~~~
oh_sigh
> Like a lot of things, I think coffee is fine if you're adult about it. We've
> got quite a lot of coffee in our Chicago office...

(I'm sorry, did I misquote your misquote?) Just because some things aren't
fine if you're adult about it, doesn't make all things inappropriate at the
office.

Why would you have coffee in the office? What about all the people who can't
drink coffee, because of their religious beliefs(Mormons), or because they
have cardiovascular conditions which prevent them from intaking coffee?

> If their work is done (it has to be since you can't work after beer) why
> don't they go home to their family and kids?

It seems you have a very unhealthy relationship with beer. You seem to think
that the only reason to drink beer is to get drunk. Are you really saying that
it isn't possible to work after drinking one beer? And are you really saying
that people who are parents shouldn't be wasting their time socializing with
coworkers, and they need to just shuttle immediately from the office to their
family once work is done?

~~~
bambax
> _You seem to think that the only reason to drink beer is to get drunk._

I'm not saying that and I'm not thinking that either. I don't like beer very
much but I drink it occasionally. I prefer wine.

> _Are you really saying that it isn 't possible to work after drinking one
> beer?_

Yes, I'm saying that, absolutely. You (I) can't do creative thinking (or any
kind of thinking) after one glass of alcoholic beverage.

> _And are you really saying that people who are parents shouldn 't be wasting
> their time socializing with coworkers, and they need to just shuttle
> immediately from the office to their family once work is done?_

Yes, I'm kind of saying that too. I don't think "socializing with coworkers"
is very healthy. Friends are friends, coworkers are coworkers. Just because
I'm in an office with other people doesn't make them my "friends".

If friendships develop, then great! and we can meet outside of work. But
drinking together _while at work_ but _not working_ , in front of the boss, is
not my idea of a good time.

I think it's mostly the boss's idea of a good time; it makes him think he has
so many friends! But they're not his friends, he's paying them to be there.

~~~
gknoy
> You (I) can't do creative thinking (or any kind of thinking) after one glass
> of alcoholic beverage.

I believe you might be incorrect. I recently read that a moderate amount of
alcohol (~2 beers, which in my mind is a lot...) led test subjects to perform
BETTER at tests of creativity. [1]

You or I might not want to work after having alcohol (I'd rather nap), but
apparently it can help some people. It's not inconceivable that one might have
some beer, and then go back to work for another hour or so.

1:
[http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/244065.php](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/244065.php)

------
Zikes
Everybody's talking about it as though everyone goes on a raging bender at
work every evening. It's as though offices offered free cake and you're all
imagining meeting rooms full of rotund programmers stuffing half a bundt down
their gullet.

If beer in an office is causing issues it's because someone doesn't know their
limits, and that is an entirely individualized and likely very marginalized
issue. The author's immediate correlation of beer and "frat culture" is easily
the most sexist thing I've read this week, and the implication that "raging
hormones and inexperience" combined with an occasional afternoon beer
automatically means I become a raging pervert bent on harassing any woman in
sight is ludicrous.

~~~
davemel37
I think her point is not "everyone goes on a raging bender" her point is
more...if one person, one time, goes on a raging bender... was the tradeoff
worth it. The answer of course is ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

Culture decisions should be in the best interests of everyone in the office.
If you have one recovering alcoholic in the office, or one person who might
act irresponsibly...

This little harmless perk becomes a massive liability, and more
importantly...is completely unnecessary and possibly inappropriate.

~~~
Zikes
If that's the point, then it is moot. If one person, one time, goes on a
raging bender, then they probably would have done so regardless. It's an
individual and rare issue which should be judged independently of the whole.

We're not children, we're adults. Generally people know how to drink
responsibly, if they choose to drink at all, and while I'm aware that there
are a very large number of people who do not they are still very much a
minority, else there would be pandemonium in the streets every time a liquor
store comes to town.

As others here have already pointed out, if you go to a lawyer and ask for an
enumerated list of everything in your office that could become a "massive
liability" then you'll probably decide to just shutter the doors before the
list is even half completed.

Stop applying unfounded "what if" morals to a perfectly legal and benign
office perk. Trying to act in the "best interests of everyone" will ultimately
serve no one, your office will end up being another cookie cutter cubicle farm
that the legal department has determined is the statistically least likely
(but not entirely!) to cause problems and all your talent will eventually get
tired and move on to greener pastures.

------
programminggeek
Beer in the office is not something anybody needs and yes it requires a level
of responsibility about how you use it, I would argue the same thing is true
of having free soda in terms of the long term health of people in the office.

I'm a guy and I could care less about if there is beer or not in the office.
If anything it's a signal that the company is trying to look cool. It doesn't
mean that the company is in fact a cool place to work.

Also, it is completely sexist to say that beer is the fault of guys or that it
is keeping women away. The place where I worked where they had beer on tap,
just as many women drank as men. Many of the women were as vocal about
supporting the beer keg as the guys were, so even though it is popular to
claim that it's a gender thing, it's not.

Some people like beer in the office some don't. I don't think gender has a lot
to do with it. Alcohol consumption is very much a personal preference that
doesn't correlate well with gender from what I can tell.

~~~
tehwalrus
Sure, it's not necessarily sexist (although it may happen to appeal to more
women than men in job adverts).

But, alcohol and soda are _not_ on a par - only one impairs your ability to
think, act and discuss properly[1].

[1] yeah yeah tolerances, but ultimately it's wearing down peoples inhibitions
- we're definitely more likely to be rude (or accidentally rude) when drunk.

------
Karunamon
_FTFA: It’s a recipe for mixed signals, disagreements, misunderstandings._

So are endless meetings, endless emails, emergencies at 4:55p on a Friday,
upper management, the phase of the moon, and tidal activity.

We get it. Your vision of "professional" explicitly doesn't allow for any kind
of alcohol ever, but how about not dictating that for everyone else, eh?

~~~
tptacek
You are responding to the tone of the post and to your presumption of who the
author is and what they represent, but you're not really responding to the
message of the post.

~~~
Karunamon
That's exactly my point. The message of the post of the author's opinion.
There's no message to respond to because you can't argue with an opinion.

------
mgkimsal
The beer culture is very very weird to me, and something I just don't get.

I don't understand why companies don't promote an ice cream culture. Have
custom flavors available throughout the day, a stocked freezer, etc. Sit back
and have a sundae while discussing code problems. Try new toppings/sauces now
and then, etc.

I don't drink beer. When I was younger, it was mostly a financial issue. As
I'm older, I just don't like the taste. "Oh! But try this one - it's got a
bold whatever with a hint of foo aftertaste". I don't care. It's _beer_. If it
tasted so radically different from beer, it would be called something else.
It's still beer.

Tech conferences often revolve around a subcontext of beer. "Let's go grab a
beer!" Beers provided at open bars. Etc. I get it - it's a social lubricant.
But... it's so ingrained in many cultures and subcultures (much like sports)
that _not_ participating is an odd signal. With more pushy types, ordering a
non-beer gets a weird look and I have to explain myself multiple times. I
shouldn't have to.

Ordering food, there's generally no such pushback - even vegans at the table
generally don't say anything when I order a chicken sandwich. But order a
water or coke when the rest of the table's ordering specialty beers, and 7
times out of 10 there's someone who questions you.

Again... I don't get the beer culture, and would love to see it replaced with
nothing, or something else like ice cream.

EDIT: Sometimes people ask me if my non-beer attitude is a religious thing.
It's not. I occasionally drink alcohol (wine/spirits) because I like the
taste.

EDIT 2: What I was trying to get at above was that promoting a beer culture
will necessarily be somewhat exclusionary, and some people may be on the
defensive or feel like 'outsiders' at the outset. If you know you're doing
that - you only want to hire people with a shared love of beer - that's great.
But... that's probably _not_ the point of your business. For pintlabs.com, for
example, that _is_ the point of their business (local startup focusing on beer
- gentle plug for them)

~~~
nilkn
I also don't like the taste of beer and have never had a glass of beer I've
really enjoyed. If I'm not careful, the aftertaste can actually gag me a
little bit.

I've had one or two unpleasant encounters with people who truly can't accept
that all beer tastes bad to me. One person went so far as to tell me that you
can't dislike beer if you like bread because, you know, beer is just liquid
bread. I've since learned to just never bring up my distaste for beer except
possibly on forums like this. I'm sure there are more of us out there who just
keep quiet about it.

~~~
mgkimsal
but we shouldn't. we need to be more vocal - fighting the 20-something fratboy
beer drinking image of 'web developer' is something that needs to be done. I
strongly suspect that perhaps outside a few square blocks of san francisco,
non-beer-obsessed 30-something+ non fratboys (and girls) are actually the
_norm_ for web/software development, but we don't fit the techporn myth.

------
lmm
Fuck that shit. I _like_ beer. If I have a choice between a job where it's
supplied and a job where it isn't, guess which I'm going to choose. You say
"investors aren't backing frat houses", but they must be seeing decent returns
from companies with a beer supply or they wouldn't be funding them.

~~~
kylec
This is _exactly_ why companies provide it. Like programminggeek said, it's a
signal that they're trying to look cool. They would probably prefer if you
didn't actually use it (impaired mental function, cost of operation, etc), but
simply having it attracts and retains employees like you. There's beer on tap
in my office, but I never actually see anyone have any at their desk or during
the day. I've only ever seen people drinking at the end of the day before
going home.

------
drtse4
Maybe it's because i'm european and not living in the US, but this kegerator
in the office thing looks like something that gets old fast. The first weeks
it may sound fun, beer in the office, branded beer glasses,etc... but i don't
understand how someone could care as the novelty wears of.

And i hope i don't need to comment on that "devs need beer" thing, c'mon,
childish stuff.

Does a subset of the employee likes beer? Ok, let's go _outside_ to taste some
nice craft beer after work. I don't see anything wrong with that.

~~~
dfxm12
It has nothing to do with being European. My (multinational) company has
offices in the US and Belgium. There's beer on tap in Belgium, and not in the
US. Every time I visit, my colleagues in Europe always make a big stink like
"how do you get stuff done over there with no beer?"

~~~
bbarn
I worked for a company based in Germany, and when I'd go visit I remember the
big bottles of beer in the cafeteria. I think the whole time I was there I
witnessed maybe 2-3 people ever drink a beer outside of the Wednesday
weisswurst lunch day (You want to talk about workplace culture being
oppressive try to eat that awful stuff). It wasn't especially prohibited, it
just didn't seem like anyone did it. Now, the minute we were off work, I could
find half the company at the same bar in the city having a great time together
nearly every day of the week.

------
shanac
Just as a caveat - I know Anne. I'm also a lady, so, some of the sexism
arguments both do and don't ring true.

I'm not sure what I think. I've drunk alcohol in the office that had beer as a
way of thinking through a problem. It worked. I also know a few engineers and
other tech people who are alcoholics, and have admitted to me they spent
serious time (and still do) in AA. I'm not sure the continual serving beer at
pretty much every tech event I've ever been to is good for their careers. I'm
90% sure theire are events where they just bow out of because of temptation
reasons (not every event, but still) I personally wouldn't mind a dry event
just for calorie count/i don't need it reasons on occasion.

I also know that other countries drinking during the day is much more normal
(an example here
:[http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2010-04...](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2010-04-08-carlsberg-
beer-drinking-limit_N.htm) ) I also think other countries have very different
feelings towards alcohol. The US still has some puritan motifs in its alcohol
culture.

Finally, the one thing that does bother me - beer in tech companies usually
means they want you to be there 24/7\. Fine, ok - but you can do business
elsewhere. For all you know interacting with some bartender may help you - and
it isn't going to happen if your work life is also your social life, as
implied by the kegs.

~~~
mathattack
_Finally, the one thing that does bother me - beer in tech companies usually
means they want you to be there 24 /7\. Fine, ok - but you can do business
elsewhere. For all you know interacting with some bartender may help you - and
it isn't going to happen if your work life is also your social life, as
implied by the kegs._

This is very true, and includes other benefits too. Dinner is a cheap price
for a few hours of developer time. Laundry service? Much cheaper than a few
hours of developer time. Package delivery at the office? Again much cheaper...

~~~
shanac
I'm not sold that always being in the social context of work is healthy. And
as my cofounder says "Keeping healthy is the cheapest way to get stuff done"

Further, productivity drops if you work 24/7.

On a personal level - time for other things (including laundry) outside of
work does make me more productive because it gives me to time to think about
work. The mind relaxes and you make connections you would not otherwise.

~~~
mathattack
I hear you - gym memberships are a great benefit because they save the
employee money, and pay for themselves in better health.

Any perk that gives me time back is a good one, whether or not I invest the
time in the office or elsewhere. I'd rather play with my kids than fold
clothes.

Personally I find my productivity increases up to about 50 hours, and then
drops slowly until about 60, when it falls off the cliff. Different people hit
it at different times.

------
jdludlow
_There’s no reason to have beer. On tap. In your business._

Reasons #1 through #999: I'd like to have a beer.

Why do freedom of choice and personal responsibility never factor into these
types of blog posts? This entire thing reads "I don't want beer, so you can't
have beer."

I was fixing some bugs last night. And I was drinking a pint of Wall's End[1]
at the same time. I felt zero effects from the alcohol (it's a 4.8% session
brown ale), the bugs got fixed, and the sun rose in the east this morning.

[1]
[http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/30076/89553](http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/30076/89553)
If you're in Minneapolis / St. Paul, and you like brown ales, get some of
this.

------
spindritf
Most programming is nothing like operating heavy machinery or heart surgery,
there's no reason not to have beer on tap. Working conditions have been
improving greatly over the last century. I for one welcome a bit of pampering.

Small doses of alcohol actually improve mood and cognitive performance[1].
Athletic too but that's less relevant.

If some people like it, let them have it. What happened to "live and let
live"? If some people like more frat-like atmosphere, why not let them
gravitate towards those places?

[1]
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9833014](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9833014)

~~~
drtse4
[1] Mood and cognitive performance improved by a _small_ amount of alcohol
_given with a lunchtime meal._

~~~
mathattack
Everyone is different here. I used to work in Paris periodically, and it did
work well there. People never got drunk, but frequently had wine for lunch.
Then I worked in Australia. You knew better than to try and get a serious
question answered on a Friday afternoon.

I personally find that I get tired with alcohol, and while my creativity may
go up, my focus goes down. As such, I don't like alcohol at lunch, but that's
a personal choice.

------
Cthulhu_
Devs don't need beer, they need coffee, :D

On a more serious note, I don't get the point of this post.

Beer and pizza being listed in job adverts? Yeah, that's a sign that the job
itself isn't actually attractive enough to draw people in. Second, I for one
wouldn't want to work anywhere that had a continuous supply of beer and pizza.
Maybe as a friday afternoon event.

Beer and sexism? I don't see it. For one, women drink beer too. Although to be
honest, not everyone's into beer; "drinks" would be a better term. Good wine,
for example.

Beer and immature, juvenile 'frat boy' behaviour? Only if you're working with
immature, juvenile frat boys. We have beer at the office (I work offsite
though, curse you consultancy!), but nobody drinks during the week days, and
most people just want to go home at 5 on fridays. Maybe they have a beer at 4.
But most just want to go home to their families and pasttimes.

It really depends on a lot of factors, and whether your job is a place where
you go to work, or something that doubles as your entire social life. or
something.

If people, as hinted at in the article, drink tons of beer during their
working hours, then those people have a problem, imho. Who here does? Also,
does the author have experience working in a place that serves beer during
working hours? Or people that become complete tards when they've had a couple?

------
jiggy2011
Amongst companies that keep beer on premesis what is the culture surrounding
it?

If you come into work on monday morning and everyone is already onto their 3rd
Carlsberg export by 12:30 then I can see why that might cause problems.

OTOH companies that I've worked at that have kept beer in the fridge it has
always been something that might be enjoyed with lunch on a friday or at 7PM
when one has stayed a little late finishing some milestone on a project before
heading home (assuming they are not driving).

~~~
mathattack
At my current employer, there's rarely a lot of beer in the fridge, and people
won't grab one before 4:30 or 5:00 or early in the week. Outside of interns,
the people most likely to grab 1 or 2 are the hardest workers in the office.

~~~
dfxm12
Are you implying your interns are the hardest workers (aside from those who
grab 1 or 2 beers) or are you implying that interns grab 1 or 2 beers, just
like your hardest workers?

~~~
mathattack
The latter. We actively discourage interns from doing overtime.

~~~
dfxm12
So now you are implying "working hard" means working more hours? sheesh...

------
jlarocco
Seems like a non-issue to me. If a person doesn't want beer, they don't have
to drink it. As long as everybody is getting their work done and not getting
drunk, who cares?

Soda and junk food aren't great either, why not complain about them?

------
nilkn
The office I work in has beer and I often forget we even have it. There's no
pressure at all to drink it and I've never once seen somebody drunk (or even
nearly so) in the office.

And we don't have bottles. We have a keg.

Honestly, the free soda is a much more legitimate issue than the free beer.
The beer has caused no problems and I don't know of anybody who overconsumes
it. The soda, though, is unhealthy and far too easy to overconsume. I've been
guilty of that myself.

------
thaddeusmt
Alcohol is a very polarizing subject, even outside of the workplace. And
rightly so - it can be a destructive force, and does require more personal
responsibility than many people have to use it "appropriately".

And beer especially is loaded with gender baggage as the drink for choice for
men. In light of all the recent discussion about gender equality in tech (not
to mention "rape culture") having a keggerator in the office can easily be
construed as throwing your company's hat in the male-privilege ring. Beer
enjoys a better reputation than liquor, at least, but would the conversation
change if the office stocked wine? Or drink with the opposite gender
stereotypes, like maybe strawberry margaritas on tap?

I like beer (and homebrewing) and have no problem with it in the office. But
I'm a young, white, male, developer; so no surprise there. It would appear I
am who these companies (think they) want to attract and retain.

But assuming my demographic is not the only one who should feel comfortable in
the office, I could see erring on the side of sensitivity and
"professionalism", and not having beer on tap in the office.

------
seanhandley
We have a beer fridge in the office. If we’re hosting a barbecue event in
Summer or some other kind of social we can offer them out. We’re free to take
them if we want. Very, very rarely does that happen – and we’re a hosting
company with software and hardware folks, aged 20-40 on average, the kind of
people demographically some might expect to be all for beer at work.

Maybe after a hard day, a beer happens. But never, ever, ever during.

Frankly, If you think you can work and drink, you’re mixing business with
pleasure. Never a good call.

Having a drink at work at the end of the day is a nice option to have,
especially if there’s something to be thankful for (we fixed the issue, so-
and-so is having a baby etc). It’s a case of knowing when it’s appropriate,
and when it isn’t. If you don’t know when it’s appropriate to have a casual
beer your sensibilities are way off. Worse, if you think it’s ok to be flat-
out drunk in the office then you probably shouldn’t have a job at all.

It’s not beer’s fault. Nobody forces you to drink it, either in small or large
doses.

------
peterwwillis
What strikes me about this blog post is it's not actually making a point using
supporting evidence. They don't even have any negative experiences to even use
as example. This person just doesn't want beer in their (or others')
workplace.

I agree with all the author's points. But I have worked several places with
not only beer, but liquor on hand. Nobody got drunk, nobody acted like an
asshat (more than they were sober). They were responsible.

Is that going to be the case all the time? Probably not. But then again, some
workplaces are always just more shitty to work in than others, and when you
encounter it you decide if you need to move on or not. It's unlikely that beer
would be the single motivator driving you to that decision.

------
crazygringo
I'm personally not a fan of beer at the office as a regular thing, just
because I think it's one more amenity to get employees to spend longer hours
at the office.

But that said, there was usually beer where I last worked, and in no way was
it "a recipe for mixed signals, disagreements, misunderstandings."

It basically served as a way for devs to unwind at the end of the day (after
7pm) being social with each other, while they played video games or board
games or watched movies on the conference room projector. Especially on
Fridays.

It had nothing to do with a frat culture, I never saw drinking during the day,
and I never heard of anyone getting drunk. It was no different from cheesecake
in the fridge, or pizza in the fridge, or wine, or soda.

------
Dirlewanger
Great, another nannying article that says their way is best and all other ways
are poison. Throw in a few links to inflammatory articles to "back up" their
claim too.

Nope, absolutely no chance at all that an office full of mature adults can
enjoy a beer here or there throughout the week without someone getting
sexually harassed and their life ruined.

------
ap22213
To me, having beer on tap just says, 'hey we have a relaxed, carefree,
creative culture here.' And, I'm attracted to that.

------
nicholassmith
As long as it's good beer, not the wishy washy stuff.

I've worked in offices where there's been alcohol in the fridge at times, it
was _always_ for a Friday and only acceptable after 4pm (with a finish at
around 6pm most people aren't going past one beer). It's not an essential, and
I don't think a company should provide it as a perk, why not pay for your team
to hit a bar once every now and again, get out of the office.

------
bennyg
Probably not great in the office, but having a nice craft beer shouldn't be
discouraged - it opens up the thoughts, creates an aura of relaxation and can
promote conversation and creative collaboration pretty damn fast. Not
everything must be productive, productive, productive all of the damn time.
Creative thoughts are an important part of the ability to execute them. Just
relax and have a beer every now and then.

~~~
mathattack
At my prior employer, there was a legend of two guys who wrote the companies
email system (before commercial packages were available) in 6 weeks. There
method was to hit a pub for 4 hour design sessions every few days, followed by
a few days of marathon coding. As soon as they'd get stuck, back to the pub.
This was an uber-conservative employer, so beer in the office would have been
cause for celebration.

I'm with you that if you're going to have beer in the office, it should be
good beer. A trend I've seen lately is scotch at work. It's more an end of the
day relaxer than anything else.

I've seen both sides of the argument, and don't have a definitive opinion. If
it works, keep doing it. If not, don't. If beer in the office costs you
employees, don't have it. If beer in the office cuts your turnover, it's
cheaper than hiring new people.

~~~
xentronium
> _A trend I 've seen lately is scotch at work._

Watching Mad Men I always wondered whatever happened to strong beverages in
the offices. Was it cultural? Have people decided that drinking during workday
is faux pas? Was it some campaign against alcohol, similar to what happened to
tobacco?

------
ksikka
The point is that there is a long list of variables more important to get
right than the decision to have beer at the office, and getting those
variables set correctly would be MUCH more significant than the Beer variable.
So just eliminate the variable altogether and save yourself the trouble.

That seems to be the point here. Forget about beer in the office and focus on
the things that really matter.

------
jbondeson
The better question is: why would you have people on staff who you wouldn't
trust to be mature enough to handle the situation?

~~~
kaitai
We're all human and we all mess things up. Most people most of the time are
fine people. That's not really the question: the question is about costs and
benefits when things go wrong.

I'm a mature, responsible, smart, amazing, blahblahblah person much of the
time. And then other times I'm not, and my failures are largely non-malicious
-- just stupid. I'd guess the same is true of all of us.

~~~
jbondeson
Yes, we all mess things up, but that remains true with or without alcohol. But
the fact of the matter is that there will be alcohol present at some time with
company events, be it a summer picnic event, holiday party, or dinners. Not to
mention the fact that your employees are going to be going out for happy hours
together, and just because it doesn't happen on company property doesn't make
it any less a company issue if two employees have an incident.

So I ask again why you would want to have someone on staff that you would
think twice about giving access to beer in the office?

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badman_ting
I work at a place that doesn't have beer on tap, but people will frequently
have beers in meetings on Friday afternoons. Which never really struck me as a
"fratty" thing to do. It would be interesting if places switched to wine, then
the frat angle would be a lot more incongruous. But probably other problems
would result :)

~~~
tptacek
Drinking glasses of beer from a tap during a working meeting sounds very
frat-y to me, and I'm a drinker.

~~~
badman_ting
I mentioned the wine thing because I wonder how much of this is about the
alcohol, and how much is about self-consciously avoiding the "aesthetic" (such
as it is) of the frat house. You specifically mention glasses of beer from a
tap, and I wonder why.

It seems like it shouldn't matter if the beers are fancy stuff from Whole
Foods (which is what happens here), or crappy stuff from a tap. But I guess it
does.

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zeffr
Don't fix what ain't broke?

Beer causing problems in the office is a personnel problem, not a "beer in the
office problem".

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kin
Everyone in my office knows how to enjoy beer. As a result, we have a fridge
full of it. Do we ever get drunk at work? No. Do we ever let it affect our
productivity? No. Do we drink it every day? No.

That being said there are numerous occasions where we've just fought some
fires and feel like unwinding for the last 2 hours of the day. So we all grab
a beer and hang out in the kitchen to socialize and bond. It's been a great
team builder. No one grabs their 3rd beer. After 1 or 2, everyone goes back to
their desk.

And you know what? Every company I've spoken to works in a similar manner. So,
I really don't think it's a problem, nor have I read of it being a problem in
any work environment. It just so happens to be a common thing many people
love, man or woman, and as responsible adults I don't find it inappropriate to
advertise an in office keg.

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vinceguidry
I have worked at my current job for 3 months. I've seen alcohol served 2-3
times during town hall style meetings. And yes, some people get drunk. I do
not work at a tech company but rather at a cosmetics company, at least half of
the employees are women.

I would not be surprised if there were a few lushes at the office who keep a
bottle in their desks. Our culture is pretty laid back. But I imagine it would
tighten up pretty quickly should an incident occur.

I wouldn't rule out serving alcohol at the office, but make sure everybody's
really cool with each other first. If you had an instinctive reaction like "oh
of course everyone's cool!", then they're not and you're about to find out
what it's like to be Michael Scott.

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mooreds
I think that there are two ideas worth separating in this post.

1\. Having ready beer (a keg) available in a work setting can cause issues.
Ready alcohol impairs judgement and blurs boundaries.

2\. Having Friday afternoon beers (or any other kind of gathering) can be
beneficial to company bonding and communication. Frankly, I don't care if it
is ice cream (as suggested in the comments), beer, weekly lunches, or kite
flying--I want a regular low pressure social atmosphere for a) getting to know
my team mates and b) exchanging work ideas in an informal cross department
setting.

I think having types of events outlined in point 2 is beneficial to everyone
in the company.

Disclaimer--I work in a small company that does Friday afternoon beers, but we
are not a startup.

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blueblob
I'm a student so take it with a grain of salt, but when I have precisely 1
beer, I tend to be a little more relaxed and program better. That being said,
I wouldn't want to have beer constantly available, especially at work.

~~~
hijinks
It's not as bad as you think. I work at a place with a fridge full of craft
beers but the culture is really in place that we do beers late Friday
afternoons for a time when the company can all hangout and talk.

I've also worked at a place full of Russians where my boss would randomly show
up at 11am and ask if I wanted to help drink cognac with him.

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squozzer
Here's a snippet from the carefree happy days of the previous century, before
9/11 and the New Earnestness --

Baumholder, Germany, 1986. The daily march to the motor pool. Yes, I was in
the Army. A little later than usual for reasons no longer remembered. Early
summer, it might have been 70-F, considered a heat wave back then. A local
work crew was pouring new concrete to replace some crumbling pad. They were on
break drinking beer, at 1030. To those of you who do not habla, that's 10:30
AM.

They did seem to work a little slowly compared to the crews I have observed
since. But I've never used a stopwatch, so I could be wrong.

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guard-of-terra
Flagged. Stop commanding people what to do, who are you anyway?

------
bambax
> _think about what your devs really need (...) Sunlight, on occasion_

I'm sure this is entirely tongue-in-cheek, but sunlight is extremely
important; we don't get enough; all those people constantly attending
"conferences" held indoors where they watch people talking on stage and slides
flickering on a screen while never seeing the light of day make me sad.

Get out in the open. Look at the sky. Drop your iPod/iPhone/whatever. Think of
nothing.

------
apazzolini
[http://xkcd.com/323/](http://xkcd.com/323/)

------
donretag
Beer is the new ping pong.

------
gweinberg
Having beer in the office fridge isn't that different from having a ping pong
table. I can see how many people would never use it, but I'm not understanding
the hostility.

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bosstwizz
Buzzkill.

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Tichy
Beer doesn't rape people. People do.

I think if somebody wants to have beer in their office, they should be free to
do so. If they want to smoke in their office, the same (not sure if this is
still legal, though) - I just would like to know in advance, because I
wouldn't like to work there. But other people might.

Also, this seems to suggest beer leads to rape/harassment. So as an
implication, rape/harassment in bars are fine, just not in the office? Doesn't
make much sense imo.

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nawitus
Don't fix it if it ain't broken.

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zacaltman
I wonder why there's no wine, or mixed drinks on a company's perks list. Time
to diversify!

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annelibby
Thank you all. I learned a lot from your comments -- mostly about the
diversity of views out there.

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lotsofcows
s/beer/caffeinated drinks/g

