
Australia has the most expensive energy bills - CPAhem
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/06/straya-takes-gold-in-globes-most-costly-energy/
======
sundvor
I live in Victoria, Australia. Energy bills are through the roof - almost
literally as "insulation" is a thing just about no-one here has any competence
with. Whatsoever. I'm talking about builders and building code designers
specifically.

Ironically (see the top and bottom positions of the chart), I spent the first
40% of my life in Norway where things do get proper cold as opposed to in
Australia where it's accepted to just have a heater pumping hot air through
literal slits in the building (e.g. 0.5cm gaps under the external doors, that
sort of nonsense), resulting in houses that are never properly comfortable at
horrific expense. Yet in Norway the houses are actually insulated for deep,
real winters and don't even need active heating at the temperatures costing
Australians a fortune (eg 5-15c). I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get
single glaced windows in Norway (because it's actually illegal to use), yet
here it's a "luxury" item which is priced as you'd expect when not a standard.
This gets my blood boiling (hey, free heating).

On a side note, I just started ETH mining on a Pascal GPU, and can still turn
a profit. If I still lived in Norway I'd buy a lot of GPUs..

~~~
gravelld
What you describe is the rule in most Western countries. The only countries I
know that have their shit together on this are Germany, Sweden and Ireland.

The truth is that fixing these problems is going to be expensive. Governments
are just kicking the can down the road because they don't want to be the ones
that raise taxes to pay for it (fixing existing houses I mean). But it will
have to be done.

Maybe the biggest tragedy is that we are still building NEW houses that will
have to be fixed in the future (except in the above countries and some others
I no doubt missed). Not mandating higher standards is, however, just loading
future generations with more debt, because they will be the ones that have to
fix the quality of the housing stock.

~~~
ptaipale
Requiring better insulation for new buildings is not really that much a thing
where you need to raise taxes, because the cost of proper insulation is passed
on to builders - and the end users pay that, but in turn they have lower
heating/cooling costs.

(FWIW, Sweden's neighbours like Norway, Finland and Denmark also have houses
where it's warm inside in the winter without horrific leaks. And yes, Iceland,
even if it has practically free, abundant geothermic heating energy.)

(But what horrifies me in England is not the wind through walls and puny
glazing, it's the carpets in bathrooms, including around toilet seat.
Experiences are not recent, though, so perhaps they've changed?)

~~~
gravelld
> Requiring better insulation for new buildings is not really that much a
> thing where you need to raise taxes, because the cost of proper insulation
> is passed on to builders - and the end users pay that, but in turn they have
> lower heating/cooling costs.

I was referring to retrofit, sorry for not being clear.

Also, the costs are not passed on to customers. Very few houses in the history
of the world have been priced according to what it cost to build. The market
sets the price.

Carpets in bathrooms is a kind of baby boomer 1970/80s thing I think - plenty
of it still about. Check the corners of the room where condensation pours down
the wall into the carpet... after a few years you get a nice dark grey brown
mould line.

~~~
ptaipale
Sure, that is correct, in the end prices are determined by the market, not
cost. So in many cases the cost is not passed on to buyers, it is carried by
developers. In some cases the cost becomes a barrier for building, though.

But still, it's not the government that carries this cost.

Retrofit cost goes to government if the government decides to subsidize it. I
live in Finland, which is considerably colder than Britain, not to mention
Australia, and here the requirement for insulation is simply mandatory in
building permits (which is required also for major renovation, not just new
houses).

There are no real subsidies for this. Also, there are no heating grants which
I hear are a thing in the UK (and a thing big enough to have an impact on how
people vote).

------
manoj_venkat92
And instead of turning to solar power, they are letting Adani power build a
coal plant? What is wrong with the government of Australia. And solar power's
prices are on decline and are now getting lower than coal and it's clean
energy, check any major business news sites like Bloomberg, NYTimes etc., If I
am not wrong, Australia is a sunny place, so going solar was an obvious option
and Elon Musk was even talking for giving them solar panels & batteries.
WHatever happened to that?!!

~~~
ldp01
It does seem quite bizarre. The Finkel Report[1] sums up pretty well why coal
isn't competitive. It can't keep up with the rapid changes in demand caused by
existing intermittent generation.

> "Rapid changes in power output from VRE generation need to be balanced with
> generation technology that has the ability to increase (ramp up) or decrease
> (ramp down) power output at the same time. Gas-fired generators have the
> ability to ‘fast ramp’. Most of Australia’s coal-fired generators do not"

In America the EIA's latest energy outlook projects a (gentle) decline in coal
usage out to 2040. This is a pretty conservative government agency.

I really don't understand the obsession with coal.

[1] -
[http://www.environment.gov.au/energy/publications/electricit...](http://www.environment.gov.au/energy/publications/electricity-
market-final-report)

[2] - [https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/](https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/)

~~~
pjc50
Money, presumably. Plus a bit of the old toxic masculinity.

~~~
bobabooey02
There's no reason to attack masculinity. I know it's trendy to do so right
now, but the gender norms aren't going away yet in some parts of the country
still. If politics are involved, it's likely all about money and power.

~~~
pjc50
"toxic masculinity" is a subset of masculinity in the same way that "toxic
water" is a subset of water. People are not asking for an end to masculinity
any more than the Flint water protestors are asking for an end to water.

~~~
bobabooey02
Masculinity is a spectrum, with extreme womanizers on one side and gender-
fluid effeminate men on the other side. Where is toxic masculinity defined? Do
you feel there should be checks on extreme feminism? If no, why not?

Also, if your goal is diversity, that requires me to consider one's cultural
background before discriminating against them. Why wouldn't you do the same
for masculine guys?

~~~
pjc50
I appreciate that this hill is one that HN is unwilling to climb, but: it's
not an _extremity_ , it's those behaviours which cause harm to others and in
many cases men themselves (such as the set of behaviours whose consequences
can lead to higher suicide rates among men).

Specifically in the context of coal mining, while I appreciate that
communities get built around it that doesn't mean it should be extended beyond
wider economic and environmental sense. Coal mining is both dangerous and
_literally_ toxic for those involved, but somehow people _not_ involved in it
invoke its macho status.

~~~
bobabooey02
Macho status has nothing to do with it. It sounds like you've never lived in
one of these small towns that revolve around a single industry. When that
industry does poorly or goes away, entire families are damaged. Often times
there aren't any other jobs in the area, and many cannot afford the changes
required to move to a big city. Because of globalization and the loss of
antitrust laws, this loss of economic stability is occurring not just in coal
country, but in rural and semi-rural areas across the country. Then people who
live in areas of the country that are doing well down play their struggle
simply because they don't understand the devastating impact these economic
trends are having on families across the nation.

~~~
pjc50
I haven't, but I know well what you mean and I'm sympathetic to how much a
disaster it is when the company of a company town goes away. To the idea of
not closing mines before their time. _Opening_ mines or power stations in 2017
though? It's just a solution that creates more problems.

------
sien
This article is very poor.

The actual report this comes from is here:

[http://cmeaustralia.com.au/wp-
content/uploads/2013/09/160708...](http://cmeaustralia.com.au/wp-
content/uploads/2013/09/160708-FINAL-REPORT-OBS-INTERNATIONAL-PRICE-
COMPARISON.pdf)

Note how they pick the one stat where AU prices are high. They say 'excluding
taxes'.

Looking at the full report a lot of Australian prices INCLUDING TAX are
actually fairly cheap.

------
dwhitworth1
I moved to Newcastle, Australia from the US (Los Angeles) about two years ago.
I was shocked when I received my energy bill.

Australians in general are hesitant to use their AC or electric heaters,
opting to just layer up when it's cold or try to use fans in the summer. Many
(most?) households don't have clothes dryers, using clotheslines instead.

I would like to see how much energy the average Australian household consumes.
I'm not sure how much consumption would go up if power got cheaper, but mine
sure would... I really dislike being cold inside my own house. That said, I
much prefer living in Australia to the U.S., especially while raising a
family.

~~~
JonRB
> Australians in general are hesitant to use their AC or electric heaters

Anecdotal, but I don't think I know a single person here who is hesitant to
use heating/AC - could just be down to the people I know, but I get funny
looks when I tell people just to wrap up.

Something that did surprise me here is the near-complete lack of double
glazing. Everywhere I've lived has been thin single-glazed windows which just
let out all of the heat/cold. It's bizarre.

~~~
rosege
Im in Sydney and I've got an AC unit from the 70s or 80s in a house I recently
bought. Im very hesitant to turn it on as I know it will be super inefficient.
Im hoping to replace it later in the year. But until then its layer up! unless
guests are coming over.

~~~
askvictor
Would it actually be that inefficient? I honestly don't know, but am curious
if the tech has changed that significantly. Consider lifecycle costs (both
financial and resources) before replacing it; might just need a clean and
service.

~~~
ferongr
In my case at least, replacing a 70s Carrier "window A/C" (that was actually
embedded in a hole in the wall instead of a window) with a modern ductless
mini-split with inverter-powered compressor resulted in almost 70% lower power
consumption, not to mention the fact that the new unit is virtually silent.

------
ontario_sucks
Hmm. Price per kWh is not really a good way to compare.

My last bill in Ontario had about $10 in usage in kWh but on top of that there
are mandatory 'delivery' charges which, in my case, amounted to $90.

The real rate I pay (before taxes) is essentially 10x the supposed kWh rate.

And from the news reports locally, I'm getting off very lightly.

My bills are multiples what they were in the UK (for the same usage) and based
on that and the chart in the article, of the UK @ AU$0.30 vs just under
AU$0.40 as the AU peak price, it seems more likely Canada (specifically
Ontario) is much more expensive.

~~~
NamTaf
In QLD my rates are as follows, GST included:

Supply charge: $1.10/day

Usage rate: 28.6c/kWh

Therefore, my standard quarterly bill will have $100 of supply charges in
addition to any usage that occurs.

I am super lucky that I got on to PV when there was a large (unsustainably so)
government incentive, so my feed-in rate is 54.6c/kWh (not including GST)
which more than offsets my normal use since I am never home during the day and
thus feed that all in, then use power at night at the 28.6c rate. I
essentially get a negative bill as a result (told you it was unsustainable).

Nowadays, the feed-in for new contracts is just 6c or so, hence people now
look to invest in using that power, or having battery storage.

~~~
sitharus
Wow, here in NZ I pay 30c/day in fixed charges and around 25c/kWh. Last week's
bill was NZ$25 for 90kWh.

Nowhere near as cheap as the US but I'll take it.

~~~
elyobo
What sort of place are you living in? I haven't lived in NZ for 11 years now,
but I recall heating costs of $100s/month in Winter (poorly insulated
Christchurch housing as a poor student). Perhaps the high costs were due to
high consumption rather than high unit costs... I didn't really pay attention
to it at the time.

~~~
sitharus
I'm in Auckland in a modern well insulated apartment. If I was in a normal nz
house I'd expect to triple that, since we have a long distance relationship
with insulation.

------
rayiner
> And basically, they stuffed that up for consumers by deciding to let the
> networks earn a guaranteed rate of return, based on their costs. That is,
> the more they spent, the more they earned.

This is an ignorant criticism. Every way of structuring utility markets has
one problem or the other. If you deregulate the market, you end up with
limited competition because of high barriers to entry. If you set rates to
guarantee a fixed return on investment, you incentivize gold plating the
network. And if you have the government set price caps, you get politicized
prices that are too low and starve the utility of money needed to improve the
network. Out of the alternatives, rate of return regulation is probably the
least bad option.

Also, there are worse things than high prices limiting demand for coal-based
electricity.

~~~
Retric
You can have a more complex structure that mixes different incentives. EX:
Cost + with reductions in profit based on expected net costs.

The problem really comes down to competent regulators, but sadly that's often
a major hurdle.

------
andybak
There's an old joke where in Heaven the cooks are French, the policemen are
English, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian and the bankers are
Swiss - whereas in Hell the cooks are English, the policemen are German, the
mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss and the bankers are Italian.

I'm pondering an updated version where in hell the healthcare system is
American, the energy market is Australian... Anyone care to finish it off?

~~~
bitwize
I've heard the joke told as: Canada could have had English culture, French
cuisine, and American industry... instead it has American culture, English
cuisine, and French industry.

~~~
grecy
What's amazing about that joke is Canada is a much better place to live than
all of those countries, so I assume those countries tell it because they are
jealous.

(I have lived in the USA / Canada / Australia, my sister in France & England
for many years)

~~~
rfrey
> so I assume those countries tell it because they are jealous

Naw, that Canadians find that joke hilarious is part of why it's a great place
to live.

------
ldp01
> "Power lines are natural monopolies. Traditionally they were all government
> owned. Jeff Kennett privatised Victorian networks, but until very recently,
> distribution networks in other states, such as NSW and Queensland, have
> remained government owned, with regulated pricing."

This author sounds confused. An electrical network operator is a regulated
monopoly whether it is government or privately owned. The regulation may be
good or bad, but it is independent of who owns the assets.

And why is it a surprise that building ANY sort of distribution network is
inefficient in the third most sparsely populated country in the world[1]? At
least in the West there is now a strong push for standalone power projects
with a view to decommissioning some of the redundant infrastructure.

[1] -
[https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_popul...](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density)

------
Overtonwindow
Sort of on-topic but I recall once an Australian company called Enviromission
that was wanting to build solar updraft towers in the outback. With so much
incredibly solar-rich, un-used land, I thought Australia would've gone all in
for solar by now.

~~~
NamTaf
You greatly underestimate how utterly devoid of morals both of our major
parties are, resulting in them being in the pocket of the coal miners and
other big corps. They are almost militantly opposed to non-coal, non-LNG
investment.

This is a government which earlier this year brought a lump of coal in to
parliament as a prop to say that they were 'not afraid of coal' and to attack
the opposition for 'attacking the jobs of rural workers at the coal mines'.
I'm not even joking:
[https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2017/feb/09/scott-m...](https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2017/feb/09/scott-
morrison-brings-a-chunk-of-coal-into-parliament-video)

~~~
Overtonwindow
That is unfortunate. I spent a month living in Ryde and I fell absolutely in
love with Australia. I agree, as Bill Bryson once said: "It may truly be the
greatest place on earth." Hopefully things sort itself out soon.

~~~
voltagex_
I think there's a big problem with most voters remembering the Good Times
under a Liberal government when we had a massive mining boom and the country
was doing well. Now things are slowing down - I suspect the next few decades
will be bumpy when China stops buying everything we dig up out of the ground.

Things could have been much better if we'd taxed the hell out of the miners,
like Norway's Oil Fund.

~~~
fliptables
We have the Future Fund but it's a joke compared to Norway's sovereign wealth
fund.

There was plenty of tax money floating around back then but it was probably
spent buying votes and posting budget surpluses so government could pat
themselves on the back for being such good economic managers...

------
elyobo
Funny, as a Kiwi living in Victoria it seems to me that, while prices have
climbed a bit over the last few years, electricity costs here were incredibly
low... I wish NZ was represented on that chart.

That said, my per kWh charge is about half the "market" price shown for
Victoria there (although I do pay $0.94/day on top of that, which I guess
brings it up a little), and that's after a 10% price hike about a year ago.
Who's paying those prices?

~~~
craigds
NZ is on the chart

~~~
elyobo
Thanks, not sure how I missed it.

Prices seem to be highly variable even within the state, which I didn't
realise. My rates in VIC are about half those quoted for VIC, well under the
price of NZ. It would be interesting to see these prices broken down in more
detail geographically.

------
andrewwharton
It really is a death spiral in the making.

As grid electricity prices rise:

1\. Insulation and rooftop solar/domestic battery storage become more
competitive / cost effective

2\. Which drives adoption (including retrofitting to existing structures),
reducing the demand for grid electricity

3\. Which, due to the fixed network and distribution costs, becomes more
expensive per kwh.

Australia is primed for boom in domestic battery storage.

Why? There's already a significant amount of roof top solar installed. And
feed-in bonus tarifs (up to 40c/kwh which were used to drive roof top solar
adoption) don't transfer when you sell a house. This means it's far more cost
effective to keep the energy on site rather than sell it to the grid at 6c/kwh
and buy it back at 25c/kwh. This combined with rapidly dropping costs for
battery storage... It's going to be an interesting time to be a politician.

~~~
andy_ppp
I find it strange that a huge number of governments aren't falling over
themselves to get Tesla to build one of the roughly 100 needed giga factories
in their country.

Pay for it to be built, give crazy good loan deals etc. whatever it costs
really to have energy independance has got to be worth it.

~~~
dagw
How does building a giga factory in your country lead to energy independence?

~~~
andy_ppp
By having a means of producing batteries you'll be able to rely on renewables
won't you? I thought that was the whole idea?

~~~
vkou
Unless you have very limited supply of lithium, you will not be energy-
independent.

The real reason for it though is that, unlike what HN thinks, Tesla is also
not the only company in the world capable of building a battery.

That, and batteries are a terrible solution to long and medium-term energy
storage.

~~~
andy_ppp
Yes, we could choose to solve a lot of these problems by pushing water higher.

------
Jedd
If you'd like a good insight into the mismanagement or corruption
(interpretation is left to how gracious you're feeling on the day) have a read
of The Monthly's article from a couple of years ago headlined "How network
companies lined their pockets and drove electricity prices through the roof"

[https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/jes...](https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/jess-
hill/power-corrupts)

For a country that generates so much wealth <sic> from digging stuff out of
the ground and burning it (or selling it to other people to burn), the
regrettable state of the nation could appear to the casual observer to be
quite mysterious.

------
aembleton
30c/KWH = ~18p/KWH [1] before tax.

It varies by where you live and what tariff you're on but I pay ~10p/KWH, and
this website suggests similar before the 5% VAT charge is put on [2].

1\.
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=30aud+to+gbp&t=lm&atb=v55-6&ia=cur...](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=30aud+to+gbp&t=lm&atb=v55-6&ia=currency)

2\. [https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-
kwh](https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-kwh)

------
scardine
On the other side, Paraguay is said to have one of the least expensive energy
bills. According to a friend that moved a few bitcoin mining machines over the
fence, Paraguay got free energy in exchange for letting Brazil build the
Itaipu Dam on the Brazil/Paraguay border. This dam produces the same amount of
energy as burning 434,000 galons of oil every day and supplies Paraguay with
approximately 78% of its energy needs (Paraguay even sells some energy surplus
back to Brazil).

------
surfmike
Sounds like an ideal market for home solar and Tesla powerwalls.

~~~
daleroberts
What I've heard from people installing solar at home is that even though you
install solar and a battery, you are not allowed to disconnect from the
network unless you are a rural property.

can anyone confirm this?

~~~
aplummer
I don't know about this one, but I'm not sure why you would. A lot of that
investment gets paid back by feeding energy back into the grid - you would be
throwing money away.

~~~
kbutler
Net metering is under heavy pressure from utilities because it costs them a
lot. They'd also like connection fees to pay for the infrastructure they have
to maintain, even if you aren't using (much of) their electricity.

~~~
TheSmiddy
We don't do raw net metering in Australia. You pay 30-40c/kWh on the way in
and get 8c/kWh on the way out. Utility is still profiting nicely.

------
nautilus12
Lol this explains the primitive technology guy on youtube

------
mrslave
And there's no inflation. Nothing to see here folks. Please move along.

~~~
elyobo
They just need to start including house prices in there and the inflation
would be pretty clear...

~~~
taneq
That's not inflation, that's real growth in value because houses are a great
investment yep you should invest in houses, everyone should invest in houses,
they're great. And if young people want to buy houses we should help them get
bigger loans so they can afford 'em, housing affordability is fine, it's not a
bubble, can't be, not possible.

~~~
elyobo
Unsure whether to laugh or cry :D / :(

------
rmm
Some more context.

South Australia went "all green" shutting down all their coal plants and
betting big on wind and solar. However due to the peak issues etc. they now
buy a lot of their power from the eastern states.

Victoria uses brown coal (about 20% less energy when burned)

~~~
daemin
That is completely false. There is no way the state could have all of its
baseline power needs met by just solar and wind. As far as I know the power
plant up in the port is still running and burning coal as it always did.

The buying of peak electricity from interstate is more likely a factor of
higher gas prices as mentioned in the article. This is because the coal fired
plant in the port has gas turbines that get used when load spikes.

Source: I used to live there, still have family and friends there.

~~~
bash-j
The Port Augusta coal power station was demolished. There are two gas power
stations in Adelaide. One was mothballed, but the state government forced the
owners to start it up again after a statewide power last year. The government
plans to invest in a new gas power station, plus they have a 100 mil fund set
up to invest in multiple energy storage solutions to help capture excess wind
power.

~~~
daemin
I was thinking of the Torrens Island power station. Last I knew it was a coal
fired power station along with gas turbines for peak load.

