
On Ethics in Software with the Authors of “The Pragmatic Programmer” - ancatr
https://gotopia.tech/bookclub/episodes/pragmatic-programmer-in-2020
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jefurii
> Well, exactly. It's kind of funny because it reminds me of the early ages of
> industrialization, the stories from the factories were pretty horrific. ...
> A lot of large scale tragedies, because there really wasn't any concept of
> worker safety, because it was all new. As a civilization, we didn't really
> quite know how to handle that yet.

You could argue that it was hard enough just to make the machines work without
having to also make them safe. You could also argue that workers hadn't yet
figured out how to organize (unions) against their bosses, and that consumers
hadn't yet figured out how to organize (boycott) against producers. But at
some basic level it's because the factory owners just didn't _care_ enough to
make the machines safe. All of which are true today as well.

Different point: As technologists we are implementing someone's vision. It
might be ours or someone else's, but it's either contributing to society or
it's not. It can be building power for the powerless, or lining the pockets of
the already rich. We as technologists can choose whether to take this job or
that job, or whether we continue working on a project once we know the ethical
implications of it. Unfortunately the ethical choice is usually less
lucrative.

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Kednicma
The excerpt is too small to fully articulate a complete point about ethics,
but I agree with the small ideas: We have no idea what we're doing, we aren't
good at thinking for ourselves and demanding ethical behavior from our
employers, and we don't take the effects of our actions in the world very
seriously.

~~~
routerl
> demanding ethical behavior from our employers

This is a huge one. For every Tim Bray, there are thousands who can't afford
to give up a paycheck for the sake of standing up for moral principles. As a
workforce, we do not have the political capital within our companies to hold
them ethically accountable. I wonder a lot about how to change this.

~~~
Kednicma
One doesn't have to resign in order to influence managers. In fact, it's
easier to not resign. Simply tell management flat-out, in front of co-workers,
when what they ask would amount to a crime or other ethical failing.

It's not pleasant, but it works. Akin to giving up a paycheck, this is
certainly wagering one's wages. But keep in mind that we're not being mowed
down by machine guns in the streets, either; we have nice workplaces and
personable managers, and we should press that advantage.

~~~
PaulStatezny
This, so much.

It's only one person's experience, but over time I've learned to speak up when
I hear plans that I don't agree with.

It can be surprising when you make a stance how much reasonable people are
willing to hear it.

------
remram
The problem that I see, the difference between software and other engineering
domains is this: it is easy to re-purpose software. Macbooks and programs like
scikit-learn are not inherently dangerous or bad, but once that's available to
everybody it's easy for one individual (not even with engineering background)
to make a harmful piece of software. It only take one person with evil
intentions to build a racist prediction algorithm for their insurance company
and affect millions, where it takes dozens of engineers to build a bomb or a
border wall and harm thousands.

The idea that engineers could unionize and refuse to build facial recognition
while continuing to develop self-driving car building blocks seems unworkable
in practice. Unless we lock all the open-source ML code and only let people
access it after taking some kind of pledge?

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shekharshan
I agree with the principal of it but I am not sure I can find a company that
is not using software as a competitive edge to take poach business away from
others (smaller companies) or cut costs through automation. The world we live
in is seen as a zero-sum game.

TurboTax has drained money from personal accountants. Cloud computing is
shifting responsibilities from "IT admins" to developers. Autonomous personal
and commercial transport is just waiting to put a large number of people out
of work. I am not sure how you can end up in development and not participate
in mass misery of non-developers.

~~~
perl4ever
I think you're misusing "zero-sum", or I think it's a useless term the way
you're using it. Just because everything has costs and benefits doesn't mean
the total is zero. If all numbers are equal, I guess everything is zero sum,
but so what?

