
China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017 - adamnemecek
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-38470861
======
chanderson0
For data on elephant populations and the effect of ivory bans or increased
demand, check out: [https://elephant-atlas.org/](https://elephant-atlas.org/)
\- including an API. The counts come from an awesome program called the Great
Elephant Census
([http://www.greatelephantcensus.com/](http://www.greatelephantcensus.com/)).

Disclaimer: I work for The OCR

~~~
padobson
I am largely uninformed on this topic, so maybe you can answer a dumb
question:

If ivory is in such demand to the point that it has a large black market, why
aren't there more attempts to domesticate and breed elephants for ivory? It
seems like with selective breeding you could eventually breed small elements
(that don't eat a lot and take up too much space) that have large tusks (and
produce a lot of ivory).

~~~
creepydata
The most obvious reason is they are difficult to breed in captivity. They have
very long lifespan, long reproductive cycle, low birth rate, and high infant
mortality and stillbirth (at least in captivity).

They also don't require a lot of space just because they are physically
large... They require a large amount of space because they are elephants, so
making them physically smaller wouldn't be helpful in reducing their space
requirements.

That's all with ignoring all the impossible logistics, massive capital
investment, and animal welfare concerns.

~~~
itissid
Also growing them in labs does not seem feasible. Some are trying though
[http://pembient.com/](http://pembient.com/)

------
DoodleBuggy
They need to go further and ban any and all exotic animal trade for the
quackery medicine and delicacy markets.

~~~
mingdingo
As well as put in place some animal cruelty laws. You would hold your head in
your hands if you saw what happens. For dogs, for example, they will tie their
front legs together BEHIND their back (YES, DISLOCATING THEM), and leave them
tied up like that with a tin can over their mouth until they're ready to deal
with them. They'll even hold the dogs legs like a "handle" while carrying them
around. I've never seen cruelty like it...

~~~
Rapzid
I'm not really squeamish, and I'm cognisant of the cultural difference but.. I
would caution people against image searching for tied up dogs in the context
of China unless you're prepared for some pretty shocking stuff.

~~~
vogt
The way that the Chinese treat animals is despicable. We in the US aren't far
off, but they take it to another level.

~~~
mingdingo
Yeah if China became like the (highly imperfect) US it would still be a major
win.

------
adamnemecek
You should also check out
[https://reddit.com/r/babyelephantgifs](https://reddit.com/r/babyelephantgifs).
We just finished a fundraiser for David Sheldrick Wildlife Trust (an elephant
orphanage in Kenya) in collaboration with the UK branch of the organization.
But you can still donate!

[https://www.reddit.com/r/babyelephantgifs/comments/5gm1pl/he...](https://www.reddit.com/r/babyelephantgifs/comments/5gm1pl/hey_rbabyelephantgifs_lets_talk_about_all_the/)

DSWT even made a special video for this fundraiser
[https://www.youtube.com/embed/ogJprDLQFl8](https://www.youtube.com/embed/ogJprDLQFl8)

Just check out for example this little orphan
[https://www.instagram.com/p/BOi9KfJDSKz/](https://www.instagram.com/p/BOi9KfJDSKz/)

The situation is really bad, if the next 10 years are as bad as the last 10,
elephants will be basically extinct in the wild. This will have wide reaching
consequences as elephants are keystone species which means that they are
extremely important for their environment. If they go away, ecosystems will
collapse which will cause further unrests in the general region.

[http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140114-elephants-the-
fores...](http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140114-elephants-the-forest-
gardeners)

Furthermore, money poured into the black market tends to end up in the wrong
hands (read terrorist groups) [http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tracking-
ivory/article.htm...](http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tracking-
ivory/article.html)

~~~
_audakel
If no one told you that elephants had gone extinct, would you, or the average
person ever know? Being serious here no down votes plz.

I'm all for being nice to animals but tbh untill we can feed "starving kids in
Africa" maybe limited resources would be better directed for humans and not
elephants (ie enforcing bans / going after black market).

~~~
troisx
There's a lot more humans than elephants, and a lot of these humans should be
taking better care of themselves and their environment. I'd rather my
resources go to elephants who are suffering at the hands of humans than to
humans who are irresponsibly destroying everything around them.

------
blondie9x
This is really great news! But we can go even further, let's continue with
banning Rhino horn markets (would we call it keratin markets rather than
ivory?). Keratin would be primary component here, the same protein that makes
human fingernails also is what composes Rhino horns.

[http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-vietnam-rhino-
traf...](http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-vietnam-rhino-
trafficking-20160926-snap-story.html)

In Vietnam and some of China there are some who cling to a belief that eating
the Rhino horn will cure/prevent cancer or increase libido. Those who believe
this probably aren't aware that eating their fingernails would have the same
effect.

~~~
matthewmarkus
International trade in rhino horn has been banned (via CITES) since 1977.
China banned the domestic trade of rhino horn in 1993. A similar ban is in
place in Vietnam. You literally cannot ban it any further.

If you want to ban the "keratin" market, make sure you promptly dispose of
your woolen sweaters.

~~~
adamnemecek
> You literally cannot ban it any further.

Eeeeh, even the definition of the word banned is very debatable. It definitely
hasn't been flat out banned everywhere. And China did have pretty lax laws
regarding this.

------
thinkloop
There have been quite a few downvotes for suggesting that illegalization may
not be the best remedy.

What are people's thoughts on something like:
[https://youtu.be/YUA8i5S0YMU](https://youtu.be/YUA8i5S0YMU)

tldw:

Controlled trophy hunting big game is one of the most effective ways (sadly)
of protecting the hunted animals.

~~~
okreallywtf
If you are interested in thoughtful debate on that topic, watch (listen?) to
this debate that I heard on the radio a while back and was able to find [1].
My girlfriend and I were on the way back from a run and ended up sitting in
the driveway for a good 30 minutes listening. I was leaning towards one side
already but not so much that I wasn't open to the arguments of the other side,
but I was really impressed overall with the format and the quality of the
arguments on both side. I felt one side had a significantly better supported
stance but it was really pleasing to hear a quality debate on the topic. Well
worth the listen.

[1] [http://www.intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/hunters-
conserv...](http://www.intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/hunters-conserve-
wildlife)

~~~
mistermann
Have you listened to many i2 debates? I've only ever heard one many years ago,
can't remember the topic but it was absolutely fantastic, have always intended
to check out some others.

~~~
okreallywtf
This was the first and only one but I couldn't tell you why I didn't
immediately go and find more. I think I will now that I have tracked this one
down, it feels even more important now given the level of discourse we
typically see. I would love to see more people exposed to these kinds of
debates, if I was a teacher or involved in schools I would love to play things
like this for students.

------
finid
Good move, but that gives those traders about 12 months to "kick up the
volume" of ivory traded.

After that, it becomes a typical black market affair, kinda like trade in
stolen art works.

~~~
bwilliams18
China's effort to reduce shark fin soup consumption was incredibly effective.
I hope this will be equally successful.

~~~
ChicagoBoy11
... and apparently one of the most effective strategies was using Yao Ming and
Jackie Chan as spokespeople against shark fin consumption!

~~~
Waterluvian
I remember the day Mr. T convinced me not to do drugs.

~~~
pselbert
Public awareness campaigns were key in stopping the ivory trade within the
United States (before it was ramped up again by the Chinese). Demand is the
real problem, and creating the image that ivory (or shark fin soup) isn't cool
is extremely effective.

~~~
matthewmarkus
Calling public awareness campaigns "extremely effective" is a vast
simplification of the matter. Public awareness campaigns are good at pushing a
substance towards being banned. Once a substance is prohibited, it is subject
to the "forbidden fruit" effect, which I've mentioned below [1]. Additionally,
if public awareness campaigns continue under a ban, they're likely to induce a
"boomerang" effect. For instance, the National Youth Anti-Drug Media Campaign
may have promoted drug use and pro-cannabis attitudes in the young [2]. Crazy,
right? Well, California did just legalize marijuana!

My guess is that parent is obliquely referring to that phenomenon.

In my chosen domain of rhinos, it is starting to look as though the public
awareness campaigns run from 2008 to 2014 very well could've accidently spread
the message that rhino horn is rare, risky, and desirable.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13287393](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13287393)

[2]
[http://findings.org.uk/docs/Ashton_M_1.pdf](http://findings.org.uk/docs/Ashton_M_1.pdf)

~~~
jordigh
So, speaking about your chosen field, Save the Rhino International and the
International Rhino Foundation think rhino horns won't solve the problem:

[https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/synthe...](https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/synthetic_rhino_horn_will_it_save_the_rhino)

What is your response to this? I really want to save rhinos too, and I'm not
sure how to help. I've donated to both of those organisations, and I kind of
want to figure out how convince Vietnam that rhino horns absolutely do not
cure cancer. Why do you think synthetic horns will work instead?

~~~
matthewmarkus
Not to besmirch SRT and IRF. They're good organizations that know a lot about
rhinos and ecology. However, I have my doubts about their grasp of markets,
psychology, history, and statistics among other things.

For instance, from 2008 to 2014 they pushed the message that rhino horn was
being used for medicinal purposes. As early as 2012, some intrepid
investigators started to make the case that that wasn't what was driving the
poaching crisis. There is now a growing consensus that Traditional Chinese
Medicine (TCM) was a red herring all along [1, 2].

I believe they're wrong about biofabricated horn too. If you're interested,
you can read my rebuttal to their objections here:

[https://sosv.com/why-pembient-is-confident-in-synthetic-
rhin...](https://sosv.com/why-pembient-is-confident-in-synthetic-rhino-horn/)

TL;DR: We have Nobel Prize-winning theory (Akerlof, 2001) underlying our
proposed intervention.

[1]
[https://twitter.com/savetherhino/status/798885174520016896](https://twitter.com/savetherhino/status/798885174520016896)

[2] [https://wildlifejustice.org/cn/overlooked-rhino-horn-
demand-...](https://wildlifejustice.org/cn/overlooked-rhino-horn-demand-
decorative-purposes-china/)

------
Pica_soO
I always wondered- why is the ivory market not flooded with fakes? Everything
is faked in china, this is a valuable good- is there no way to synthesize
dentin flood the poachers out of the buisness?

~~~
giarc
There is a startup trying to do just that... bioengineer rhino horns, tusks
etc.

[http://signup.pembient.com/](http://signup.pembient.com/)

~~~
matthewmarkus
Thanks for the mention! We're mainly focused on horn at present, but I do
mention ivory here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13288580](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13288580)

------
gigatexal
Woot! Thank you China! Elephants are my favorite animal and it's sad to see
such magestic creatures slaughtered for such nominal things. Or any animal for
that matter. Shark fin soup? Seriously what a waste of a needed predator.

~~~
Cyph0n
I once saw shark fin soup on a high-end restaurant's menu in Dubai, sometime
in 2013. I asked a waitress and she said they weren't serving it any more. The
menu hadn't been updated, so the change must have been recent. I was pretty
disgusted by the whole thing to be frank.

~~~
goda90
I wonder if they just tell that to foreigners who ask questions.

~~~
Cyph0n
I wasn't a foreigner: I lived in the UAE for 14 years. Besides, she was pretty
taken aback when I asked, and I made sure to convey my surprise at the dish.

~~~
pixelbill
So is there any reason in particular that the thought of eating something
containing shark fin "disgusted" you, but all of the other animal parts on the
menu were just fine?

The level of hypocrisy in this thread is incredible. Save the elephants, save
the sharks, save the whales; I guess because we think those animals are
coolest/cutest they get a pass. Guess what other animals are smart? Pigs. They
can do math and make good pets and we mow them down by the millions. How about
cows? They are sacred in some countries, I bet someone from India would be
"disgusted" that they sell dead cow in American restaurants!

~~~
Cyph0n
Whales are endangered. Sharks are killed solely for their fins. Same goes for
elephants and their tusks.

Cows and pigs are killed humanely, and used efficiently, with a clear goal in
mind: feeding humans.

I'm disgusted by shark fin soup because of wastefulness. Why kill a living
being if you're just going to use an insignificant part of it?

We can argue about this all day, but in the end, it's all relative. Until we
can come up with a synthetic and affordable alternative to meat, this is going
to continue, whether you like it or not.

~~~
pixelbill
Whales are not endangered. Some types of whales are endangered. In fact, most
Humpback species were removed from the endangered list.

[http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2016/09/07/492976575/...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2016/09/07/492976575/most-humpback-whales-taken-off-endangered-species-
list)

Good for you that you're disgusted by someone else's culture, I'm sure they
feel the same way about you. I am just sick of the hypocrisy that so many
people show. Ever kill a mouse in a mouse trap? That's a life gone for no
reason, you should be ashamed.

Seems like everyone has an opinion on just which animals are okay to kill and
which aren't. That's cool if you want to think that, but you are basically
saying "I think its okay to kill these animals but not these." and everyone
has a different line.

~~~
Cyph0n
My bad regarding whales then. But still, I believe whalers don't "use" the
whole whale, right? It used to be blubber, not sure what it is now.

Dude, living in this beautiful and multi-cultural world is a great blessing,
but you have to offend someone's culture eventually. There is simply no way to
satisfy everyone, which is why this whole PC movement is silly imo.

Yes, that's basically it: you may think no animals should be killed, while I
think that some should be killed. But the "winner" is the one who convinces
the most people by providing the most compelling arguments.

As it stands, the majority agrees that cows and pigs must die to feed humans.
They also agree that sharks should not be killed for their fins, elephants
should not be killed for their tusks, etc.

Now, we may end up being wrong about cows and pigs (unlikely, given history
and research), but this will appear over time rather than overnight.

~~~
pixelbill
Whale hunters in Japan (where they have gotten a lot of criticism in recent
years) most certainly do use the whole whale, or at least most of it. They eat
the meat; so it's no more wasteful than eating a cow, pig, chicken. It may
have been the case that they used to just harvest the blubber, but don't think
it's cost effective to even do that any more (crude oil is way, way cheaper).

I'm not sure where I ever said no animals should be killed, quite the opposite
in fact. I don't have an issue with ANY animal being killed. However I realize
that some people DO have an issue with only certain animals being killed and
not others; that is the hypocrisy.

It seems the basis of your entire argument is that you just want to do what
the majority says is okay to do. That's a cool way to live your life I guess,
but at least try to think for yourself every now and again.

------
aaron695
Sorry but I find most comments here @#!@ing inane.

We kill millions of pigs every year (intelligent animals) and farm millions of
cows (Extinct many many animals through environmental destruction through use
of large amounts of land) but we expect China to care about the second hand
effects of the ivory trade.

Where they still have millions living in poverty, we are rich (speaking as a
westerner who eats meat, not all of HN)

We love to be racist don't we?

I guess if we convince the Chinese the Rape of Nanking was cows and not
elephants they can become like us.

------
c3534l
Am I the only one shocked to learn that ivory was still legal in China? I know
China has a reputation for being a bit dystopian, but I thought this was one
of those things that everyone agreed on.

~~~
shaobo
I think the bar for real-life dystopias are considerably higher these days.

------
monktastic1
For people wondering why it will take til the end of 2017, compare: the egg
"industry" tosses all male chicks into blenders (yes, while alive), and have
promised to stop doing it by 2020: [http://www.vox.com/2016/6/9/11896096/eggs-
chick-culling-ende...](http://www.vox.com/2016/6/9/11896096/eggs-chick-
culling-ended)

That's 3+ years, and hundreds of millions of baby birds shredded alive.

------
SpikeDad
Coincidentally I watched a new documentary last night on Netflix named "The
Ivory Game"
([https://www.netflix.com/browse?jbv=80117533&jbp=0&jbr=6](https://www.netflix.com/browse?jbv=80117533&jbp=0&jbr=6))

Heartbreaking documentary on the massive killing of elephants for ivory and
how futile all of the efforts the African nations are taking to try to stop
poaching and killing by local farmers.

Investigative segments include a Chinese journalist undercover with WildLeak
talking to the Chinese criminals involved in the massive illegal ivory trade.

I hope this was instrumental in getting the Chinese govt to actually set a ban
date for ivory. Currently their regulation are so lax and so corrupt that it's
easy for the "legal" ivory dealer to launder illegal ivory in order to sell
millions of dollars worth every day.

Did you know over 1000 Kenyan and other African game rangers have been kill in
the protection of elephants by poachers. Terrible.

------
dschulz
"by the end of 2017"?

This must be a joke. Why not earlier? Why do they have to wait a whole year to
enforce a ban like this?

It's almost like "China announces ban on human trafficking by end of 2017".
Yeah, let's give criminals some time to find new career opportunities!

~~~
kahrkunne
Considering they need to inform everyone of this, think of strategies to
effectively combat ivory trading, etcetera, 1 year is a very small time
period.

~~~
yogeshimac
Wouldn't it be better if they finalized their plans before announcing
something like this? this could very well make the poachers ramp up whatever
they were doing, me thinks.

~~~
shaobo
So they should be less transparent?

------
seanmcdirmid
Again? They have already banned the ivory trade a few times, do they actually
mean it this time?

~~~
adamnemecek
Not all of the bans are the same. You might be referring to the ban that was
announced late 2015 (IIRC) which was a temporary ban for a year to see if it
works.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Meh, they do this a lot. Every year they talk about how coal will be banned in
Beijing next year, or that they'll stop harvesting organs from condemned
prisoners, and so on. Just for them to repeat the same pledge next year. The
Chinese gov promises arent credible, and something isn't a sure thing until
they really do it.

~~~
adamnemecek
> The Chinese gov promises arent credible, and something isn't a sure thing
> until they really do it.

It's a first step. I think that this is slightly different from either of
those because

a.) the money in this industry and the number of people depending on it is
only a fraction of those of coal mining

b.) people will never need ivory the same way they need organs

Even though they do have a long way to go, promising that they will do
something about it is the first step.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
They (the families in charge) own most of the ivory themselves and this is
just like promising to be good. Remember when Xi's entourage stocked up on
ivory on an official trip to Africa?

[http://qz.com/292268/chinese-officials-allegedly-smuggled-
iv...](http://qz.com/292268/chinese-officials-allegedly-smuggled-ivory-out-of-
tanzania-on-president-xi-jinpings-plane/)

Like they need convenient access to organs for Guanxi oriented transplants,
they want nice ivory to decorate their villas. The fact that they aren't
subject to Chinese law (until they are expelled from the party) anyways makes
this very easy.

------
hashkb
OK... how about rhino horn? Compared to rhinos, elephants are in zero danger.
Not defending poachers, but this is the wrong thing to prioritize. (Also
cheetahs, and probably a lot of other species)

~~~
adamnemecek
> Compared to rhinos, elephants are in zero danger.

Elephants are definitely NOT in zero danger. Certain species of Rhino are
definitely virtually extinct (for example, there are only three known
remaining specimen of the Northern white rhino
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_white_rhinoceros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_white_rhinoceros))
but elephants are in a pretty bad shape too. If the next 10 years are as bad
as the last 10, they will be virtually extinct in the wild.

Furthermore, IIRC, the biggest consumer of illegal rhino horn isn't China but
Vietnam.

~~~
refurb
How do you define elephants "in the wild"? Some African countries cull their
elephant herds due to overpopulation. These tend to be on reserves, but we're
talking massive chunks of land that would be considered "wild".

~~~
adamnemecek
You can interpret "in the wild" is as places where the rangers might not be
aware of all the specimen living in the reserve.

Even though some of these are technically reserves, some of them are pretty
large

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsavo_East_National_Park](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsavo_East_National_Park)
is 13,747 km2/5,308 sq mi.

The park rangers have only a rough idea of how many elephants live in the
reserve.

------
mrcsparker
This was long time coming, and hopefully they'll do a lot against the black
market as well.

------
aryehof
Way to go China. Thank you.

------
Pica_soO
We banned the hunt for dodos, T-rex and mammoths in Germany last year. Wasn't
easy, but government heroics, they are possible.

Esoterics kills.

------
Havoc
Why not end of 2016?

------
alphacome
how about rhinoceros horn trade?

------
adamnemecek
> I think people on HN perceive hunting or ivory trading as something bad such
> as human trafficking. It isn't.

They both involve exploitation and suffering of intelligent and sentient being
for selfish reasons.

> My great-grandfather was an Ivory trader

Your grandfather was a scum and no amount of mental gymnastics will change
that.

> With increasing government regulation and heavy handed attitude of
> regulators the entire industry got pushed underground.

Illegal markets tend to be a lot smaller than legal markets (in terms of
amount of goods purchased at least).

> As far as Ivory trade in Kenya is considered the people who take money from
> the western world to conserve are often the leaders of the cartels who
> smuggle ivory.

Welcome to corrupt governments? Does the fact that laws cannot be enforced
100% mean that we don't need them?

> The result of the ban would be further exploitation of the poachers and
> hunters

You should start a charity to support these poor souls /s.

> and yes they are going to poach elephants at faster rate.

Can you explain to me why the poaching crisis wasn't this bad until 2008 when
CITES lifted restriction on ivory sales?

This whole discussion reminds me of this Onion video

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKccr8g1xCU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKccr8g1xCU)

~~~
dang
I respect how passionately you feel about this topic (and share some of the
same feeling), but obviously "Your grandfather was a scum" (a) is completely
off limits here, and (b) helps nothing and persuades nobody. Since you care
deeply about your cause, you shouldn't undermine it by venting like that. In
any case, please don't do so on HN.

We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13287741](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13287741)
and marked it off-topic.

------
tn13
Only if bans worked!

~~~
c3534l
They do, sometimes. It depends on barriers to entry. It's hard to ban
marijuana or alcohol, because it's so easy to make. Relatively true for meth
as well. But you don't see many people doing quaaludes anymore because it's
not easy to make. Additionally, a ban like this doesn't have to be 100%
effective to be worth the trouble. The time frame is also important. Saying
"bans don't work" is absurdly reductionist.

~~~
tn13
So what bans have worked so far ? all the verbal sophistry useless unless you
give a proper example.

------
fma
What will happen to the people who hunt/trade ivory. Specifically, those who
live in villages and depend on it as a source of income. Will there be
assistance to wean them off elephant hunting.

I hope they get new skills and do not poach other animals.

~~~
mullingitover
This is like saying, in response to a crackdown on mugging, "I hope the
muggers get the assistance they need to get new skills and not move on to
other crimes."

I'd prefer if the poachers actually all got arrested, and got new skills
breaking big rocks into smaller rocks.

~~~
fma
Reading material for you from the president of Columbia, citing the failures
of the War on Drugs.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/18/colombia-
unite...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/18/colombia-united-
nations-assembly-war-on-drugs)

"“We need to provide social and economic alternatives to small growers of
illegal crops and other vulnerable communities in order to create the
necessary conditions to bring them back to legality,” wrote Santos in an
opinion piece in the Observer."

And your analogy of the mugging is invalid. In mugging there's two parties,
the mugger and the victim. The war on drugs is the closest analogy. It is an
illegal trade, just like ivory. There's three parties. The grower, seller, and
buyer.

If you do not get the grower, in this case, the ivory hunter, a legal path to
providing food for their family, it will be a failure, just like the crackdown
on cocaine for the last 30 years.

~~~
adamnemecek
> We need to provide social and economic alternatives to small growers of
> illegal crops and other vulnerable communities in order to create the
> necessary conditions to bring them back to legality,

We don't want legality. The reason why the situation is really bad currently
is because back in 2008, CITES lifted restrictions on ivory sales which
allowed several African nations to sell their ivory stockpiles to China and
Japan. The current situation is believed to be a direct result of this and the
demand has skyrocket since then.

In 80's, there was a similar poaching crisis, what eventually put an end to it
was making as much of the trade as possible illegal.

War on drugs and poaching are similar only on the superficial level. Read my
comment below where I talk about it.

~~~
zimzam
The "them" in this sentence is the farmers not the drugs: the quote is arguing
for giving the farmers a path to a legal livelihood. Similarly the parent is
arguing for legal alternatives to poaching as desperate, starving people will
always care about feeding their families more than an arbitrary law.

~~~
adamnemecek
Oh, thanks, I did have a hard time understanding that sentence.

It's true that the people need something else to feed their families, however
western and Asian countries will have an easier time banning these products
than providing these alternatives.

If the demand goes away, so will the supply.

