
'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015) - smacktoward
https://www.npr.org/2015/08/27/434970724/the-wake-is-an-unlikely-hit-in-an-imaginary-language
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YeGoblynQueenne
>> Kingsnorth said this is because the words we use to describe our world
shape our perception of it.

That's the concept of Linguistic relativity, also known as the Sapir-Whorf
hypothesis:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity)

    
    
        The strong version says that language determines thought and that linguistic categories limit and determine cognitive categories.
        The weak version says that linguistic categories and usage only influence thought and decisions.
    

My understanding is that this idea is controversial and in any case, difficult
to demonstrate, because it's mostly impossible to know one's thoughts without
asking them to put them into words, and also because language understanding is
subjective and it's impossible to understand what someone is saying without
placing it in the context of our knowledge and understanding of the world in
the first place.

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234x1fchqaefn
The strong version is hilariously easy to destroy: if you're cognitively
limited to your language, then you cannot create new words, let alone new
concepts. Since it is patently false that no new words or new concepts are
created, by Modus Tollens, it is also false that you are cognitively limited
to your language.

The weak version seems true to me. I think it is absolutely the case that your
language colors your thought.

~~~
arebours
> The strong version is hilariously easy to destroy: if you're cognitively
> limited to your language, then you cannot create new words, let alone new
> concepts.

It depends on what's the thing you define a language. It might be that
dictionary and grammar are only a kind of projection of a more blurry, hidden
structure - a language "core". Think of how children sometimes invent new
words and how these words immediately "click" with fluent speakers even if
they mean shit.

IANAL(inguist) so take it with a grain of salt.

~~~
arebours
Oh, and another thing. Knowing a word is not a 0 or 1 kind of situation. More
often than not if you're not sure about some word you're able to successfully
guess some of its meaning or at least a sentiment associated with it.

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holowire
I actually just picked up 'The Wake' a couple of weeks ago. There is
definitely a learning curve to Kingsnorth's "shadow tongue," but once you get
the hang of it, it is very immersive and rewarding to read. It really gives
you a sense of foreign place and time, as a story set in 1066 should. What
surprised me is how effective it is at establishing a perspective from which
you can really feel the relationship that these characters have with the world
around them. I picked it up because the premise sounded interesting, and was
totally blown away with how fun it is to read—I would definitely recommend
checking it out.

~~~
spudlyo
Thanks for the recommendation, I just might do that. I was relieved to see it
has a glossary[0] so you're not completely at sea. I remember getting all the
way through Trainspotting without realizing that there was a glossary in the
back of the book, which was a facepalm moment.

[0]: [https://unbound.com/books/the-
wake/updates/glossary](https://unbound.com/books/the-wake/updates/glossary)

~~~
holowire
Oh yes—I should have mentioned the glossary. Thanks for calling that out—it is
absolutely necessary in making it an enjoyable read. Once you get a grasp on
it though, it's pretty easy to infer meaning of new words as you go.

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ranko
If you like _The Wake_ , you might also enjoy _Riddley Walker_
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddley_Walker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddley_Walker)),
which uses an imaginary psuedo-iron-age dialect transcribed phonetically:

"On my naming day when I come 12 I gone front spear and kilt a wyld boar he
parbly ben the las wyld pig on the Bundel Downs any how there hadnt ben none
for a long time befor him nor I aint looking to see none agen."

~~~
otabdeveloper1
> psuedo-iron-age

It's not, it's just phonetic transcription of modern urban English with some
SMS-style typing errors thrown in.

Really disappointed with the crappy low-effort linguistics in that book.

~~~
tomgp
Couldn't disagree more, many of the words are halfway between two other words
or are deconstructions of existing words fragmenting and refracting their
meaning though Ridley's understanding of the world. To give the most obvious
example; Eusa is a confusion of St Eustace, the USA and Jesus with a rich web
of meaning and myth springing from that conflation. The spelling speaks to how
the transition from oral to written tradition can crystallise the meaning of
myths, fixing their meaning.

~~~
NikkiA
Except iron age english looks like this:

cwæð þæt se Ælmihtiga eorðan worhte, wlitebeorhtne wang, swa wæter bebugeð,
gesette sigehreþig sunnan ond monan leoman to leohte landbuendum, ond
gefrætwade foldan sceatas leomum ond leafum, lif eac gesceop rynna gehwylcum
þara ðe cwice hwyrfaþ.--- Swa þa drihtguman dreamum lifdon, eadiglice, oð ðæt
an ongan fyrene fremman feond on helle; wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten, mære
mearcstapa, se þe moras heold, fen ond fæsten; fifelcynnes eard wonsæli wer
weardode hwile, siþðan him Scyppend forscrifen hæfde in Caines cynne--- þone
cwealm gewræc ece Drihten, þæs þe he Abel slog; ne gefeah he þære fæhðe, ac
hehine feor forwræc, Metod for þy mane mancynne fram. Þanon untydras ealle on
wocon, eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas, swylce gigantas, þa wið Gode wunnon

Which is nothing like phonetic modern english, and thus his point.

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ajuc
Aleksander Gołubiew wrote historic novels in Polish "archaized" in similar
manner. I especially like his "Bolesław Chrobry" series, also set in 10th-11th
century, but in Poland. Sadly it wasn't translated to English, it's a very
interesting book. Kinda like Game of Thrones but higher percentage of real
history and no fantasy elements (other than people believing in folklore).

It's very funny experience to read it, at first you struggle, then you stop
noticing it. Reading the third book you catch yourself using the more useful
words when you think.

~~~
arebours
I feel like you always have to bend the language to match the context. I think
it was Sapkowski on his Narrenturm series (which happens to be set in the late
Middle Ages) who said that even though he didn't want to specifically archaize
the language he couldn't use a modern version of it either. Some new
words/concepts like "computer" or "holocaust" would feel out of place and be
immediately spotted by the reader.

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ForHackernews
Not mentioned in this NPR article, but Kingsnorth is also one of the main
people behind the Dark Mountain Project, an attempt to formulate a cultural
response to our ongoing ecological collapse:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/magazine/its-the-end-
of-t...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/magazine/its-the-end-of-the-world-
as-we-know-it-and-he-feels-fine.html)

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JoeDaDude
When I read "A Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess, I found myself using many
words from the slang language he invented, an amalgamation of Russian and
English. (The slang language got minimal treatment in the film, you'll have to
read the book). I'll have to read The Wake to see if it happens again. I still
remember "horrorshow", it means good or cool, comes from the Russian
"khorosho".

~~~
castratikron
Also "otchkies" meaning "glasses". Means the same in Russian. I'll say it in
English every once and a while.

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phillc73
I've not heard of this particular novel before, but presume it is about
Hereward the Wake[1], which is indeed listed on the Wikipedia page. His story
is fascinating and a couple of years ago I read a number of different books
about him[2], with half an idea to write something myself. I'm really pleased
someone else has written a new work about Hereward.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake)

[2]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake_(novel)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake_\(novel\))

~~~
ggsp
From the Wikipedia article you linked: "Man Booker Prize long-listed The Wake
(2014) by Paul Kingsnorth is a historical novel written in a shadow version of
old English telling the story of another resistance fighter in the fens whose
actions are regularly compared to Hereward."

~~~
phillc73
Yes, I mentioned that in my comment. I just hadn't come across this one
before. My reading around Hereward was prior to its publication (maybe I
should have said a few, rather than a couple of years ago. Time flies).

~~~
smacktoward
I’ve read _The Wake_ , and it’s really not accurate to say it’s “about”
Hereward. Hereward doesn’t really figure into its story at all, except as an
offstage personage we hear about occasionally when his actions are compared to
those of the protagonist, Buccmaster of Holland.

 _The Wake_ isn’t a lightly fictionalized biography of an historical figure.
It’s something much richer and more imaginative than that. If you’re
interested in the period, I would definitely recommend it.

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mrob
Plain text version:

[https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=434970724](https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=434970724)

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Whygul
This book is really pleasant and would definitely recommend. It is emotionally
taxing at times but packed with wild imagery/poetry.

