
Yet another novel I will no longer write - ttepasse
https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2020/04/reality-keeps-stealing-my-line.html
======
bhaak
> And then COVID-19 came along and basically rendered the whole thing
> unneccessary because we are all getting a real world crash-course in how we
> deal with people suffering from a viral pandemic, and we do /not/ generally
> deal with them using shotguns and baseball bats even if they're so
> contagious that contact might kill us.

But that's not the standard zombie scenario. Having 1% of the population being
somehow sick and dying or a strain on the medical resources doesn't make
society collapse.

The zombie scenario is that only 1% of the population is unaffected and
society breaks down and disappears and modern humans, humans living after the
Enlightement, have to survive in a hostile environment.

I agree with Charles Stross that people don't just bash their heads in a
crisis but that they start to look after their own community. But this
probably stops after we reach the magical number of 150 people.

After that, other people are not friends anymore and how we deal with them
when resources are scarce, well, I'm not as optimistic as he is. Just look at
the current mediterranean situation and that's when resources aren't actually
scarce.

~~~
XorNot
Person 151 is not a non-person, they're just a member of another group, who's
leadership will include the other groups within the 150 monkey-sphere hence
the basis of hierarchical human societies.

The dumbest thing about most "preppers" is that they invariably develop absurd
ideas about how their fortress will beat back the hordes they imagine to
descend (sound familiar?) yet pay basically no attention to their local
council, who would be the nearest level of organization and planning
continuance which would allow a practical response if the larger systems
failed.

This isn't even speculative: the current the COVID-19 response in America has
required local councils and city boards to coordinate, particularly in the
absence of any clear direction at a Federal and frequently State level.

~~~
Gibbon1
Reminds me of the Subgenius advice for the faithful. In the end times don't be
a sap holed up waiting for defend yourself against marauding gangs. Join a
marauding gang as soon as possible.

~~~
Gravityloss
I guess creating an apocalypse simulator game where you could play it very
differently would be very hard to create (agent simulation) and might not be
fun at all to play...

~~~
philipov
You don't need agent simulation to do that, you just need properly-motivated
writing and design teams.

------
setgree
This is an interesting take on what zombie fiction is about:

> _The zombie myth has roots in Haitian slave plantations: they 're fairly
> transparently about the slaves' fear of being forced to toil endlessly even
> after their death. Then this narrative got appropriated and transplanted to
> America, in film, TV, and fiction. Where it hybridized with white settler
> fear of a slave uprising. The survivors/protagonists of the zombie plague
> are the viewpoint the audience is intended to empathize with, but their
> response to the shambling horde is as brutal and violent as any plantation
> owner's reaction to their slaves rising, and it speaks to a peculiarly
> American cognitive disorder, elite panic_.

Contrast this to Christian Thorne [0], who writes:

> _Zombie movies are always going to be about crowds. People-in-groups are the
> genre’s single motivating concern. Other classic movie monsters are like
> malign superheroes, possessed of special powers, great reserves of speed and
> strength. What’s peculiar about zombies, when put alongside vampires or
> werewolves or aliens, is that they are actually weaker than ordinary human
> beings. They are really easy to kill for a start, because their bodies are
> already moldering. Their arms will tear clean off. They go down by the
> dozen. You’re in no danger of being outwitted. They can kill only because
> they have the numbers, and so that’s the menace that zombie movies are
> always trying to clarify: The threat of multitudes_.

I've watched/read a fair bit of zombie stuff, and I think Thorne is more on
the mark about modern zombie movies. -- lots of scenes of zombies breaking
down barricades or tearing people out of their cars (America's favorite refuge
against crowds!). But movies that try harder to have a point, like the
original Day of the Dead, lay it on pretty thick that _we_ are the zombies
(who, even after death, return to the mall to amble around). Which is, I
think, more in-keeping with a 'zombies are slaves doomed to eternal toil'
reading.

Colson Whitehead's 'Zone One' flips the slave/master dynamic by having a
mediocre black protagonist advance in post-zombie society way more than he was
ever going to pre-outbreak, because the C student who survives in a low-effort
way is more resilient than traditional high-achievers.

0: [https://sites.williams.edu/cthorne/articles/the-running-
of-t...](https://sites.williams.edu/cthorne/articles/the-running-of-the-dead-
part-2/)

~~~
tachyonbeam
I would say it's possible that the zombie myth has been independently
reinvented in multiple places. I don't think it's necessarily been
"appropriated". Though there is an obvious parallel in that both myths are
about lack of freedom.

IMO, zombie movies symbolize a desire that people have to be free from the
usual norms of society. More broadly, there is some part of us that desires
chaos, and sees it as freeing. In a post-apocalyptic zombie world, there are
no jobs, no rent to pay, no worrying about grooming yourself or fancy clothes,
etc. Zombies are irredeemable, unsalvageable enemies. It's kill or be killed.
In some ways, you could say that's simpler than modern society, with its many
parallel games, hierarchies and rigid structures. In zombieland, there are no
rules.

Beyond that, zombie movies are also an outlet for people to channel that pent
up rage. They like to fantasize that they would be the badass survivor,
shooting zombies in the head with a shotgun and chopping them up with axes, in
some kind of ultimate "fuck you" to society. But hey, it's okay to kill people
now, in that world, it's completely legit, they're no longer people.

Personally, I don't watch zombie movies because I feel like there's enough
real drama in the world that I don't need to worry about gross imaginary
drama. I also don't think it's the healthiest thing to cultivate violent
fantasies where you kill everyone. Your life, your real life, may have its
share of problems, but this definitely isn't how you're going to escape them.

------
jhbadger
I just don't get the multiple people saying "Zombie epidemics as a topic are
over because of COVID-19". They might be over just because there's been a glut
of them, but in no way, shape, or form does the current pandemic resemble a
zombie pandemic.

~~~
dhosek
He's not saying that zombie epidemics as a topic are over, just that his take
on it has been rendered obsolete by current events. It's sort of like a short
short (either written by or edited by Isaac Asimov, I don't remember—I read it
forty years ago) that proposed that Everest would never be summited because it
had been colonized by Martians. Between acceptance and publication, Everest
was summited.

~~~
dhosek
Another similar instance just popped into my brain—in college a friend wrote a
piece for the college paper in which, writing about political changes in
Eastern Europe, he wrote, "but don't expect the Berlin Wall to come down any
time soon."

As you might have guessed, the Berlin Wall came down between the writing and
the publication.

~~~
WalterBright
I recall a book in the bookstore in 1989 about how IBM was inevitably going to
grow and take over the world. Wish I'd bought it. :-)

------
Barrin92
> _The survivors /protagonists of the zombie plague are the viewpoint the
> audience is intended to empathize with, but their response to the shambling
> horde is as brutal and violent as any plantation owner's reaction to their
> slaves rising, and it speaks to a peculiarly American cognitive disorder,
> elite panic.

Elite panic is the phenomenon by which rich and/or privileged people imagine
that in times of chaos all social constraints break down and everyone around
them will try to rob, rape, and murder them. To some extent this reflects
their own implicit belief that humanity is by nature grasping, avaricious,
amoral, and cruel, and that their status depends on power and violence. It's a
world-view you'd expect of unreconstructed pre-Enlightenment aristocrats, or
maybe a society dominated by a violent slave-owning elite._

This is such a salient point. It's something I've noticed when someone
recommended me The Walking dead years ago. It's horrendous how reactionary and
borderline fascist that show is in its nihilistic display of humanity where
tribal survival is all that matters and every individual encountered is almost
certainly some sort of rapist or cannibal and just needs to be stomped out. At
one point I was thinking if the show is actually pushing this narrative so
hard as to parody it but it certainly doesn't seem to be viewed that way.

~~~
rpiguy
His observation is wrong. In all societies in which there is a power vacuum
gangs take over. Witness Africa, South America, Burma, and the middle Eastern
countries in which we have removed the “dictators.”

Asia after WW2 was different because the West essentially sponsored state
corporate Facism in Japan and Korea until they had 30-50 years to evolve into
something resembling a true democracy.

Even the term “elite panic” is lie. The elite are fine in a disaster and they
know it. Look at Venezuela, the rich and elite simply moved behind walls and
continue on. They have ways of isolating themselves and maintaining separation
from the rabble.

The panic strikes the middle class more than any other group, because their
status is the most easily lost. Unlike the rich, their power goes away with
their jobs. Their lifestyle, however much you’d like to mock trips to
Starbucks, weekend shopping at Pottery Barn, and all that - it all goes away.
The tenuous advantage they’ve built up vanishes.

The truly elite use that fear. They aren’t afraid themselves.

~~~
Andrew_nenakhov
> In all societies in which there is a power vacuum gangs take over.

Such gangs are the basic form of government. They have command structure, and
a population base they exploit. Over time, as gang grows, it comes into
conflict with other gangs and one eventually emerges as the dominant. Once in
command over a big chunk of population, it either splits into many smaller
bands, repeating the cycle, or it evolves to be more structured, and rules
appear, which regulate how gang members operate and what they are allowed to
do. You may know these rules as 'laws'.

This happens because every gang eventually understands that in the long term,
taxing a prosperous population is far more profitable and stable than
unlimited plundering.

~~~
ThrowawayR2
How does your hypothesis apply to, for example, Mexico? Seems that
"eventually" may mean decades, if not longer.

~~~
barry-cotter
It seems to apply pretty well to Mexico. Every time the cartels reach an
equilibrium of violence where there’s a clear chain of command and territories
violence drops. Then the Mexican state decides that having para-states on its
territory is unacceptable, smashes them and violence increases. You see the
same dynamic though not on the same scale in US organized crime history; the
Mafia were brutal thugs just like the brutal thugs who are criminals in US
inner cities now. The Mafia used violence less often because they were
organized. People knew where they stood. Pay your protection money, don’t talk
to the police unless they’re our police and you’re done.

No crime is better than organized crime is better than widespread disorganized
crime.

~~~
paganel
I agree with you 100%, just wanted to add as an extra data point that after
reading some of Max Weber's works I realised that he was the one that best
described how society works in modern times (not saying that his observations
were perfect, just closer to the perceived truth). He is of course the one
that re-popularised the "monopoly on violence" [1] term that describes (among
other, countless things) Italian Mafia's tactics (which I think Weber even
mentions) and today's Mexican cartels' way of doing things.

As such, I highly recommend Weber's "Economy and Society" [2].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_and_Society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_and_Society)

------
rapind
What always bugged me about zombie movies is that no one seems to figure out a
way to take advantage of it beyond total anarchy.

I would expect enterprising individuals to see zombies as a potential tool.
Like maybe figure out what makes them tick (they never seem to possess
intelligent thought) and leverage them for a labour force or army. What are
they fuelled by? Can they be taught to perform complex tasks through reward /
punishment?

Seems like the next logical distopian step to take, and brings up all sorts of
complicated mechanics, economics, and morality questions.

~~~
mattmanser
It's not really the point of a zombie movie, or any movie or story containing
magical, free-energy beings/things/spells/doodads for that matter. It's just
an accidental consequence of the magic/fantasy.

For zombies the point (and the plot) should always revolve around the
existential dread of relentless, never-ending hordes of beings who want to eat
your brains.

It's like the old story about the very best thing superman could do is simply
turn a crank powering the world's energy. All that flying around saving people
is actually a massive, inefficient, effectively people-killing, waste of time.

Try writing many series of comics about that though!

~~~
rkuykendall-com
[https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-07-13](https://www.smbc-
comics.com/comic/2011-07-13)

------
Igelau
> this narrative got appropriated and transplanted to America, in film, TV,
> and fiction. Where it hybridized with white settler fear of a slave
> uprising. The survivors/protagonists of the zombie plague are the viewpoint
> the audience is intended to empathize with, but their response to the
> shambling horde is as brutal and violent as any plantation owner's reaction
> to their slaves rising

I think it's a pretty fair to say the modern zombie story starts with Night of
the Living Dead, and this viewpoint couldn't possibly be any further from how
Romero handles themes of race, class, and authority.

I mean, maybe it's because I don't watch Walking Dead, but I've never seen a
zombie film where I thought I was supposed to empathize with the protagonists.
Except maybe Shaun of the Dead!

------
avip
Should have adopted the strategy of assuming the book exists and write a
review. Used so effectively by Borjes it won him a Nobel.

~~~
ableal
If you mean Jorge Luis Borges, sadly no Nobel for him.

P.S. Local press had an item about an "International Writers Committee" naming
Borges for the 2018 prize posthumously: [https://www.dn.pt/lusa/comite-
internacional-de-escritores-at...](https://www.dn.pt/lusa/comite-
internacional-de-escritores-atribui-nobel-da-literatura-a-jorge-luis-
borges-9988389.html)

~~~
avip
Thanks for the ( _double_ ) correction! Just read he "lost" in 65' with
Nabokov and Neruda. Nice list to be in.

------
IndrekR
I was just browsing/reading his old Linux articles. May be interest for others
as well:
[http://www.antipope.org/charlie/old/linux/index.html](http://www.antipope.org/charlie/old/linux/index.html)

------
pacman128
One of my favorite authors. Listening to his novel, Glasshouse, right now. If
you're looking for something to read right now, check him out.

~~~
plerpin
I read Neptune's Brood and was hooked. It's a fun surreal sci-fi
adventure/romp with a heck of a lot of really interesting, geeky tech
interludes. Who knew a novel about futuristic accountancy and forex could be
so intriguing?

~~~
shoo
> The theory of interstellar trade is a well-understood topic, with an
> extensive literature consisting of one paper (pdf) I wrote in 1978.
> Interstellar finance, however, is less well covered.

> That’s all about to change, however. I’m reading an advance copy of Charlie
> Stross’s Neptune’s Brood. (Hey, I have connections!) And it is the best
> thing by far written on the subject to date, partly because it is, as far as
> I know, the only thing written on the subject to date.

> It’s also a fantastic novel.

[https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/20/the-theory-
of-i...](https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/20/the-theory-of-
interstellar-finance/)

> This paper extends interplanetary trade theory to an interstellar setting.
> It is chiefly concerned with the following question: how should interest
> charges on goods in transit be computed when the goods travel at close to
> the speed of light? This is a problem because the time taken in transit will
> appear less to an observer travelling with the goods than to a stationary
> observer. A solution is derived from economic theory, and two useless but
> true theorems are derived.

[https://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf](https://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf)

------
StavrosK
Pet peeve: An expatriate isn't like an ex-skier, it comes from "to
expatriate", ie to drive out of one's country, like "excommunicate" or
"excise". Something that has been excised wasn't formerly cised.

~~~
fhars
I think you missed a joke at the expense of the toothsome nightmare of après
ski culture.

~~~
StavrosK
Maybe, but I don't think I did, mainly because "expatriate" isn't spelled with
a hyphen.

~~~
sangnoir
I thought that was pretty obviously tongue-in-cheek: _ex-zombie...ex-
skier...ex-patriate_. And this was disclaimed as a very rough first draft -
I'm guessing the author (in subsequent drafts),an editor or a test-reader
would have caught it & have it revised (it's pretty low-effort wordplay - but
that's more than OK for a first _draft_ as disclaimed, and the author could
even keep it if they feel strongly about it)

~~~
StavrosK
Hmm, yes, it could be. I've seen it written like that too often for it to be a
good joke, but who knows what the intention was.

------
mcguire
Hmm.

There are some science fiction tropes that become really obvious when you
start looking for them. For one, check out _Invasion of the Body Snatchers_ or
Heinlein's _Puppet Masters_ : that's "the Commies are among us", and it's not
surprising that it became a significant thing in the 1950s. Although the idea
that there are a group of people out there who look and act completely normal
but who are actually out to destroy everything that decent people hold dear is
a pretty common fear; demonic possession and all.

The Zombie 'Pocalypse is another. Charlie's right, it is the same fear as that
of the owners of an antebellum Southern plantation at the mention of a slave
uprising. The idea that all of the people you live with every day might
suddenly turn into degenerate, savage monsters yearning to snack on your
favorite nervous system is pretty scary, though. But it doesn't really have
anything to do with infection or disease, and he is wrong to try to tie the
two together. The infection isn't the important part.

Oh, and let's wait until the next time something like the current pandemic
happens before we pass too much judgement on how people react. Consider the
difference between the Northeast blackout of 1965 and the New York City
blackout of 1977.

------
hyperpallium
Includes first draft of first chapter.

------
erikbye
His previous novels had many tropes. In fact, most stories do, and it should
probably not stop one from writing them. You will be hard-pressed to find
stories without numerous familiar tropes.

[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Rule34](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Rule34)

[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/HaltingSta...](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/HaltingState)

------
auntienomen
Still hoping for a 3rd novel in the Freyaverse. It doesn't have to be named
Uranus's Spawn.

