

Why isn't there a union for software engineers? - xkcdfanboy

Our wages are so varied, it's nauseating. Am I the only one that thinks we should unionize for better wages and rights (ie. ergonomic chairs n whatnot) Our health and productivity depends on it.
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davismwfl
First, just a general comment: Good companies rarely find their employees
searching for a union because they take care of people and communicate often.
So the real question is if you are unhappy or have had a rash of bad
employers/issues, maybe look at which vertical industry you are in or how you
are selecting your next job. Not a dig on you, just something to ponder.

IMO, a union would be the worst thing for our industry and profession. Like
someone else pointed out, wages are generally good, benefits are flexible and
we have the ability to freely move and negotiate with any employer based on
our ability and value. If knowledge workers give up the right to negotiate
what is fair and equitable for them and the value they can deliver then you
will see a significant number of engineers etc looking for other professions
where they can still do that.

I do agree that there are wide ranging salaries/benefits, but it is because
people all bring a different skill set, knowledge and capabilities to the
table, and not everyone deserves the same pay in what we do. We are not all
assembling the same 22 parts on an assembly line with the same training and
therefore deserve equal compensation. I will happily pay a software engineer
that is super talented and been in the industry for 10 years significantly
more than what I would pay someone who has just gone through the motions for
the last 10 years and is good but not special. If there was a union though, I
wouldn't be able to do that because every person has to fit in a pre-defined
box and each person in that role gets x, y and z regardless of their value to
the organization. And over the long haul companies generally deteriorate
employee morale and benefits even more when a union is introduced, because if
it isn't in the union contract it won't happen. There are some pretty awesome
exceptions to that rule, but not many.

I have worked in software basically my entire career, and have been at
companies that had significant groups of staff unionized, and a few years ago
I was contracted to a company that was being unionized for the largest group
of staff. I can tell you that employees there were promised a panacea by the
unions, and they finally selected one and when negotiations came down to it,
the employees lost and now a fair number of them regret it. Others are still
fighting saying it was a good thing cause now everything is fair and in
writing, but really all they did is take the great employees and force them to
fit the mediocre box, and take the bad to mediocre employees and give them a
pay and benefit increase. Guess which ones are on which side? I had no stake
in that fight, but talked to people about both sides of the coin. Now all
discipline is equal and "fair". So real example in their case, a guy that
makes a minor non-critical mistake after 20 years of loyal service gets
punished equally as the guy who has 1-2 years of service and bad mouths the
company at every chance. Is that fair? I don't think so, maybe you do.

To be up front, I generally dislike unions, but feel they did have a place in
a previous time when employers abused their employees, and in rare
circumstances still do. Please don't get me wrong, people in unions are
generally good, hard working people; but I feel the union itself on the other
hand is only out for its own interests (not yours) and that means raising dues
and collecting more money, which they do by getting higher wages and more
retirement benefits etc. Look into unions that your County governments has to
deal with, look at the terms in those contracts etc. See what it costs
taxpayers. It isn't that the people in the union are undeserving of fair
treatment, but look at both sides to see what is reasonable and fair.

TL/DR: Unions generally suck, the stifle employee value and drive costs up on
employers.

~~~
eightyone
> So real example in their case, a guy that makes a minor non-critical mistake
> after 20 years of loyal service gets punished equally as the guy who has 1-2
> years of service and bad mouths the company at every chance. Is that fair? I
> don't think so, maybe you do.

If that's the case, and the other employees share the same sentiment, then
they can talk to the union leaders to try and change the rules. If the union
leaders refuse, then the employees can vote them out.

> To be up front, I generally dislike unions, but feel they did have a place
> in a previous time when employers abused their employees, and in rare
> circumstances still do.

Just because there are laws on the books right now to assuage employer abuse,
doesn't mean that companies and third parties aren't actively trying to repeal
said laws. Last election we saw a presidential candidates suggest that we get
rid of janitors and replace them with children. It's really not "rare" for
employers to treat their employees bad, unfortunately.

> Please don't get me wrong, people in unions are generally good, hard working
> people; but I feel the union itself on the other hand is only out for its
> own interests (not yours) and that means raising dues and collecting more
> money, which they do by getting higher wages and more retirement benefits
> etc.

Coming from a union family, I couldn't disagree more. My dad is 53 and has
worked for a major telecom since he was 18. Without the union bargaining for
proper healthcare and dental insurance, we would be screwed. Every time the
bargaining contract is up, it's a great deal of stress for my family because
management is always fighting to give less and less in terms of benefits. I
don't blame them, their job is to cut costs. But someone needs to represent
the workers and this is why we have unions. Are they perfect? Not at all. But
they have changed my life for the better.

> See what it costs taxpayers.

If you really want to talk about cost to the tax payers, let's look at the
amount of Walmart employees on food stamps and other aid programs because they
aren't making enough money to make ends meet.

If employers treat their employees well, then their is no need for a union.
Unfortunately, there are many industries that don't treat their employees well
and you are really underplaying that.

The Internet is a major game changer when it comes to unions and we haven't
really seen it utilized at all. Good web software could cut down on a lot of
the overhead costs associated with a union today. It could also help keep
accountability and what not.

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piratebroadcast
I seem to stand alone in the opinion that Zerkerbergs PAC will totally fuck
over software developers, because they will be basically importing cheaper
labor from overseas. Times like this I do wish we had a union.

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shaydoc
I don't think that's a good idea at all...in general I think wages are very
good for software engineers, and working conditions tend to be among the best
anywhere. There is plenty of demand for good engineers and a world of
opportunity. If you are not happy with wages, skill up, build a portfolio and
make yourself into the type of individual people want. Unions are no good in
my opinion, they are more trouble than they're worth, and the good people tend
to get trapped by them. They just end up being another controlling force and
they hinder productivity innovation etc...

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lukesandberg
Unions are typically only a good idea when an individual has no bargaining
power in a negotiation with an employer, which is typically because it is an
unskilled or low skilled job, so they are easily replaceable. Unions can
benefit those kinds of employees via collective bargaining (you can't replace
all of us, etc.).

This is not at all the case in our industry. I would bet if you want that
ergonomic chair you could probably get it without a union to back you up.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
A union for software engineers wouldn't have to resemble the ones commonly
associated with blue-collar workers. Something like the AMA would probably be
more useful. It doesn't collectively bargain with employers but it does take
actions that benefit its members, for instance, lobbying for laws that would
benefit them.

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jtchang
I would like to belong to a collective. I had a discussion with a friend a
while back that a lot of code we write is reusable. And while there is always
this work for hire clause the truth is a lot of us reuse ideas/snippets of
code from one place to the next.

I think there should be some type organization a developer can belong to that
helps with this kind of legal stuff.

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smoorman1024
Because we like competitive markets.

