
You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping - uptown
https://www.wsj.com/articles/you-want-20-for-handing-me-a-muffin-the-awkward-etiquette-of-ipad-tipping-1539790018
======
tptacek
Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not
complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer
some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding
exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip
is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical
software developer, there won't be much clarity on this point; you'll have to
rely on context clues to determine whether and how much of a tip is expected.
You can reasonably withhold a tip from someone who is actively hostile or
incompetent, but really all you're doing is making yourself feel better. If
payment and the tip is expected up-front, you can either buy into the cost-
sharing dynamic of tipping, or you can not.

 _Very few people in the US are going to admire a principled stance you take
against tipping._ The moral of the opening breakfast scene in Reservoir Dogs
was _not_ that Steve Buscemi was a smart and principled dude. Harvey Keitel
was the one you were expected to admire in that scene.

A very easy, relatively pleasant way to get through life in the US if you're
well-off enough that you routinely buy coffee in expensive coffee shops: just
always tip. Anywhere there's a tip line. You never have to figure anything
out, and sometimes people really appreciate it.

~~~
PurpleBoxDragon
>A very easy, relatively pleasant way to get through life in the US if you're
well-off enough that you routinely buy coffee in expensive coffee shops: just
always tip. Anywhere there's a tip line. You never have to figure anything
out, and sometimes people really appreciate it.

This echoes the sentiment that 'if you can't afford to pay a X% tip, you can't
afford to buy the product'. Problem is that it seems to keep going up. It use
to be 10, then 15, now it is closing in on 20 and in some areas 22 seems to be
the expected. How far does this logic extend? If you can't afford to tip 50%
then you can't afford it?

My preferred reaction has been to begin avoiding places where tipping is an
option.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Tips shouldn't be expected if you're on regular minimum wage rather than the
tipped wage.

~~~
asdff
Even in the U.S. if your tips + tipped worker minimum wage fail to reach
untipped worker minimum wage, your employer pays the difference (1).

1\.
[https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm)

~~~
kevinmchugh
I encourage you to talk to service workers to see how often this happens

~~~
TheAceOfHearts
It's illegal. They can sue the restaurant.

As far as I can tell most servers like tips because it lets them earn much
more money than minimum wage.

Also, nowadays it's quite easy to get a message out to a huge audience. I'd
certainly boycott any place that were so horribly mistreating its employees.

~~~
ubernostrum
Seriously, go over to reddit and read /r/legaladvice for a while.

The almost daily litany of posts of "my employer is doing (list of highly
illegal things involving wages), what should I do" will be a pretty big wakeup
call for you. And if you think "well they can just sue" is an easy answer,
remember employees who are identifiable as the source of wage complaints are
at risk of being fired. That's illegal, too, but do you really think an
employer who's already breaking labor laws will be scrupulous about not
retaliating?

Also, these folks will really open your eyes (click through to the full report
linked at the bottom):

[https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-
fo...](https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-forms-theft-
workers/)

Their data (2012) showed that the amount recovered from wage claims against US
employers was three times the dollar value of all robberies in the US
combined. Just the amount recovered; the amount actually owed but not paid is
likely to be larger.

------
bootlooped
I dislike the tip-at-purchase-time paradigm. I haven't even seen my order yet,
how am I supposed to evaluate how much of a tip it warranted? But that gets to
the heart of it really: tipping is more about subsidizing payroll than
rewarding good service.

~~~
siruncledrew
Tipping on a digital device (iPad register) also doesn't make sense because
the tip money is going straight to the bank account the owner connected to the
point of sale software.

~~~
EpicEng
It goes to the workers though. Are you claiming that the owners are not
distributing them back?

~~~
DtnB
Not the parent but: I would imply exactly such a thing. Just like how, in
some/most states you are supposed to pay a tipped employee minimum wage if
they don't make the equivalent in tips. As far as I can tell from having
worked in food service: that payout never happens.

~~~
gamblor956
What you've described is a state crime, a federal crime, and a violation of
several different state and federal labor laws. Easily a dime worth of prison
time, plus criminal fines, plus civil penalties, plus having to pay out the
stolen tips to your employees with treble damages for the intentional tort
you've comitted.

Not really worth it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the calculus is so
bad that it's extremely rare to happen at scale. Especially if there's a
digital trail run by a third party...

~~~
justin66
It happens _all the time._ Connie Schultz won a Pulitzer for writing about
this, among other things: [https://www.pulitzer.org/winners/connie-
schultz](https://www.pulitzer.org/winners/connie-schultz)

I can understand why you might think it never happens if you are completely
ignorant of the facts on the ground but nevertheless familiar with the
criminal and civil sanctions involved. It's about lack of enforcement.

~~~
tedunangst
Weird how the proof that owners are pocketing credit card tips is a story
about someone stealing cash from the tip jar.

~~~
justin66
It has been _years_ since I read her series of articles on the topic of
tipping, although I remember it being influential at the time. It's possible I
linked to the wrong thing, but in my defense I didn't realize that my post
would be required to rise to the level of mathematical proof. Ahem.

------
Simulacra
I don't feel guilt when they swivel that ipad around, more like annoyance.
When I'm asked to tip for someone handing me a cup of coffee, I say no tip. We
should really be pushing to get away from this relic of slavery, and don't tip
unless it's absolutely clear we need to; i.e. at a sit down restaurant.

~~~
blacksmith_tb
Ouch, having worked in cafes and restaurants as an undergrad I pretty much
always tip 20%. Is it absurd? Of course, but given how badly most waitstaff
are paid, the idea that you will somehow eliminate the practice by stiffing a
few barristas seems both sadistic and highly unlikely to change the world.
Until robots hand me muffins, I accept it as a tax on eating out.

~~~
dwaltrip
It's only "stiffing" if we start with the assumption they are supposed to be
tipped.

I'm not well-versed in the history of coffee shops, but it seems to me that it
is not a well-established norm -- as compared to bars and restaurants, for
example. But I'm happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken about this.

~~~
sharemywin
A lot of states are paid less if it's a job with tips:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage)

~~~
ApolloFortyNine
Also on that page:

>If wages and tips do not equal the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour
during any week, the employer is required to increase cash wages to compensate

~~~
scroot
Do you think in a real workplace people are going to constantly bring this up
with their managers?

~~~
threatofrain
I think what happens in a real restaurant that doesn't share tips is that if
you don't make enough you'll just be let go.

------
Balgair
The 'politics' of tipping aside, one thing that really grinds my gears is that
they calculate the tip _after_ taxes are applied. I feel that the tips should
be calculated based on the exchange I had with the establishment/person and
that the taxes should considered separate from our interaction. Like, here's
the 20% tip on the 100$ I spent. Not, here's the 20% tip on the $100 + 5% tax,
$105 total. I know why they do this, it's more money to them, but, to me, it's
disingenuous (or they don't realize it being done this way, which may be
worse).

~~~
spdionis
Isn't the problem the other way around? In Europe taxes are included in the
price from the start.

~~~
adrianmonk
No, those two things are orthogonal.

The convention in the US is to compute the tip on the pre-tax amount. If the
pre-tax price is $10, a 20% tip is $2 and 8% tax is $0.80, for a total of
$12.80.

Now, some of this software has come along and tried to sneak in a change to
the formula where the tip is computed on the post-tax amount. They take $10,
add 8% tax to get $10.80, and then compute 20% of that for the tip, for a
total of $12.96.

They have deceptively changed the tip rate from 20% to 21.6%.

Whether prices are listed tax inclusive or tax exclusive isn't the issue. Even
with tax-inclusive pricing like Europe has, it still would have been possible
to sneak in a change to the formula for computing the tip.

~~~
cardiffspaceman
> _They have deceptively changed the tip rate from 20% to 21.6%._

It's simply a bug. I got a suggested tip amount on a bar bill, the other day
and it was clearly derived from the total of all the food and beverage, before
taxes. It was all there in writing, and the figures were easy for me to check
in my head.

~~~
Balgair
Oh, with drinks it's even harder to calculate in the US. The 'typical' tip,
regardless of (a reasonable) price is $1 flat. For a $3 domestic, that's a
~33% tip. For a $7 microbrew that's ~14% tip. Even with $10 martinis, $1 is
'typical'. Trying to factor that all in to the tip on the bill makes for a
heck of a problem, especially after a few drinks!

------
CryoLogic
If anyone here has been to Japan, tipping is handled much more elegantly and
with a lot more business integrity.

Instead of guilt-tripping customers into tipping, businesses in Japan up their
prices if they need more money.

I remember once when I was in Osaka I was at a really good sushi place that I
had visited several times prior. There was no tip option on the receipt
(didn't see it anywhere in Japan) and there was no tip jar. I asked the server
if I could tip.

She told me they couldn't accept my tip because they believed the food was
priced correctly.

It was a totally different experience than in America where not tipping gets
you poor service and unhappy waiters.

~~~
starpilot
No tipping policies in the US will never work as long as tips are untaxed.
Otherwise, it is a lose-lose. Diners pay more than with tipping, servers'
take-home pay is reduced. That is why most restaurants that have tried no-
tipping have gone back to it.

~~~
awalton
...tips _are_ taxable income: [https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/are-tips-taxable-
irs-offers-tip...](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/are-tips-taxable-irs-offers-
tips-on-tips) .

They're just hugely underreported because the kinds of people that work off
tips are people making $2.15/hr instead of actual minimum wage (which is still
criminally low). _That 's_ what needs to change in this equation - paying
workers what they are due.

------
ilovetux
I've worked in food service for many years. I worked in kitchens for many
years and I have to say I hate tips! Now-a-days I'm more fortunate and don't
work in kitchens anymore. My biggest problems with tips is when I'm making
(for example) $10/hour and I see the waitstaff counting out the hundreds of
dollars in tips they got that night when I get $400/wk minus taxes.

It is disparaging that one's performance while working in a kitchen is not
only not rewarded, but the reward for good kitchen performance is actually
given to the waitstaff.

Just to be clear, I do tip. I usually just go with $5, $10, $15 or $20. If the
order is really large I might do the math just to make sure I'm in the
ballpark. If the food is particularly good, I will send a $20 back "to the
chef".

------
randyrand
The introduction of iPad-tip-for-everything ridiculousness has made me
reevaluate tipping in general. I've found myself tipping less even for the
more normal things, all because the iPads forced me to start thinking about
it.

I often tap "no tip" on Square terminals.

~~~
foolfoolz
a great rule of thumb is if you paid cash where they don’t have these ipads to
ask for a tip, is a tip ever expected?

~~~
mmmBacon
Sometimes I pay cash to avoid the awkwardness of the whole tipping thing with
the iPad. This allows me to choose to tip what I want rather than default to
20%.

------
gmjoe
I think a lot of the frustration isn't from tipping... it's from tip _creep_.

To many people, tipping feels like an unfair relic of the past that can be
associated with negatives like racism (servers of color receiving less), pay
disparity (why do underpaid servers get to benefit from tips but not underpaid
line cooks), etc.

At least here in NYC there's been a growing movement of "tip included"
restaurants and coffee shops, which feels like social progress.

But when my bakery added a prominent tip jar (not even a cafe!), when Uber
added a reminder about tipping after each ride -- it can feel like society
moving backwards.

~~~
make3
tip included.. that should mean no tip, tip included in the price of the
thing, aka salary

~~~
gmjoe
Sorryt that's what I meant, yes. The tip is in the price already. E.g. my
coffee shop has $4 coffees when surrounding ones are $3. But no tip jar or tip
buttons on the terminal.

------
rayvy
I tip not because of guilt, or because I feel like I need to pay _for the
service_.

I tip because I frequent local restaurants, bars, coffee bars, etc - and the
20% is a little good will towards the establishment. How can I walk around
complaining about Amazon and big corp dominance when I won't even cough up 20%
for a small local place?

*note how I'm only mentioning local establishments. To hell with everyone else

~~~
late2part
If Amazon and other big corps cost 20% less would you be okay with them?

------
diegs
I can afford to tip, so I tip. I pay 20% more a year for the privilege of
consuming expensive capuccinos and muffins served by people who are being
priced out of the city in which I live by my profession.

Whether or not the system is just, the businesses are compensating their
employees fairly or not, or my tips are going to one person or the whole
group, I feel better about not needing to worry about such things, eliciting a
good reaction from the employees I interact with on a regular basis, and
putting more of my money into the local economy in which I live and interact
with on a daily basis.

I can't solve any of the macro problems, but for a minimal cost to me as a
highly paid tech worker, I feel good about my contribution to the micro
problems. YMMV.

~~~
albertgoeswoof
Except you are actually exacerbating the problem by subsidising companies that
don’t pay their workers properly.

------
rb808
What I would love is to use tech to be able to split the tips. In a restaurant
I'd love to tip the guys in the kitchen who went to culinary school, the guy
who worked in the fields to grow and collect the vegetables, the people who
cleaned the restaurant. As for the person that wrote down your order and asked
if "everything is OK", they can go jump.

~~~
rtkwe
Those other people are in the more reasonable regime of being fairly
compensated for their work directly though.

------
dwater
Not tipping in America rarely if ever gets you poor service. You have to
return to the same business and happen to get served by the same server enough
times for them to remember you. It does deprive the server of a living wage.

~~~
frereubu
A British friend of mine was chased down the street and harangued by a
waitress when he tipped 10% (pretty standard in the UK for decent-if-not-
amazing service). I get the feeling they'd remember someone who left a tip
which was that underwhelming, let alone no tip, wouldn't they?

~~~
ghaff
The UK may be one of the most potentially confusing places. Some places where
a waiter takes your order include "optional" service charges and others don't.
And, of the ones that don't, some prompt you to add a tip on the PoS terminal
and others don't.

~~~
IshKebab
It's not really confusing. Basically, don't tip anywhere except restaurants
with table service where you pay at the table after the food. Then it is 10%
(unless they did particularly good or bad service).

Pay at the bar before receiving food? Don't tip.

Buying drinks at a bar? Don't tip.

Ordering an Uber? Don't tip.

Etc.

~~~
ghaff
Yes, but you're only given the opportunity to add a tip to your credit card
some of the time even when a service charge isn't added. I guess you're
expected to leave some cash in that case.

~~~
IshKebab
No just ignore it.

~~~
ghaff
Hence it’s a bit confusing as service charge not included is often printed in
big letters in the receipt.

------
frebord
Yeah I've started doing no tip on the iPad, but I feel guilty every time,
which is ridiculous really even though I wouldn't have thought twice about it
3 years ago when I wasn't prompted to leave a tip.

Also tipping a bartender for popping a cap off my beer or pulling a lever on a
tap...

Also tipping in a full service restaurant is equally fucking weird. Like why
am I paying you a percentage of the food I order, why don't I just pay you
(how good a job you did) * (how long I sat at your table).

------
zackmorris
After losing my keister in the housing bubble I made a deal with myself to
never use credit again and to always tip at least 20% to make the world a
better place. Pretty much all non-salary jobs are underpaid now by a factor of
2-4 so tips can add up to more than a paycheck. I also like to think that it
makes up for the people who undertip or don't tip at all.

Edit: I now have one $2000 expense card that I pay off each month and
typically stays under a 50% balance to build my credit.

~~~
bhhaskin
But what if tipping is a big part of the reason people are underpaid? What if
by tipping you are just moving the issue along.

~~~
zackmorris
I think this is most likely a fallacy. A positive action by me to increase
wages shouldn't be blamed for the negative actions of others (mostly business
owners) to suppress wages.

I could see taking responsibility though for not choosing to eat at more
expensive restaurants that generally pay their staff better.

Probably what it comes down to is that restaurants are entertainment so aren't
needed by society the way that grocery stores are. Then again, so is just
about everything else in our economy. 10% of our labor could supply all our
basic needs, the rest is just wasted keeping up with the Joneses. What I'm
saying is that there may be no free market solution to the service industry
being underpaid, which is why I support a $15 minimum wage and universal basic
income, among other things.

------
patorjk
I've noticed this with food trucks (like the article mentions) and some mall
food court places. It definitely feels awkward. It's resulted in me avoiding
these types of places or using cash. It's kind of a relief to know that it
bothers other people.

------
b1r6
I just strongly avoid using any business that deals with tipping. This way I
don't worry about tipping calculus.

In the case that I do engage with such a business, I only tip when there is
objectively individual work being done: Eating out at a table? Tip the waiter
15%. Waiter was extremely rude? Tip the waiter 0%. Picking up food at a
counter after ordering online? Tip 0%. Bringing bags into a hotel? Refuse help
so I don't have to tip.

I really wish tipped workers would just get paid an honest wage to begin with,
meaning the true cost of labor would be baked into product prices!

------
potbelly83
Never tipped when buying a coffee, never had any problem with service. I don't
think they really expect you to tip either, it's just the program they use has
the tipping option built in.

------
PunchTornado
So you walk into a place, you say you want a muffin, they hand it to you and
expect a 20% tip for that?

Like wtf?! US is weird.

~~~
justfor1comment
There are also restaurants in the US where the tip is optional or mandatory
depending on the party size. If you and 2 other friends go to a restaurant,
tipping is optional and you can decide the percentage. If you and 5 other
friends go to a restaurant, tipping is mandatory and fixed at ~20%. And people
wonder why I am asocial.

~~~
SahAssar
Mandatory tipping isn't tipping, it's just the price of the service. This is
ridiculous.

------
cryptozeus
I noticed a great tipping system in the oberoi grand of Kolkata city in India.
When I was about to tip the bell boy for bringing my luggage to the room, he
graciously declined. He continued to explain that there is no personal tipping
in the entire hotel. If I enjoy the stay and like the service, At the check
out time you can leave the tip in an envelope near the front desk. This was
great because for the next 3 days I enjoyed the great service without thinking
about whom to tip how much during every interaction.

------
SilasX
“But my A/B tests proved that a 20% rather than a 15% default led to an
increase in total tipping, and vindicating my claim of a downside-free benefit
to ‘nudging’ customers to tip more!”

~~~
quotha
Downside is you may be 'nudging' your customers not to come back!

------
MikeBVaughn
I mean, I just hit the 20% button and go on with my day. I'm already buying
drinks at an expensive coffee shop; I'm not going to get hung up on sixty
cents on a purchase that's (comparatively speaking) stupidly extravagant. I
usually end up throwing that much in the tip jar anyway when I pay in cash. I
don't really feel like this bears deeper analysis above and beyond the
standard discourse about the ugly issues regarding wages for service jobs in
the US.

------
jason_slack
I live in the U.S. Here tipping is almost always expected or at least asked
for. It can be uncomfortable. Plenty of comments here about this.

However, I grew up being told that I should work hard, everyday and earn my
paycheck. I was taught that expecting a tip was wrong because I should give my
very best, always, regardless of how much money I was earning. If I was
unhappy with the money, find a job that paid better. But always give 110% at
every job.

When I was younger I worked at a Starbucks. I was in charge of counting the
tips each week and distributing them. The formula was based upon how many
hours you worked that week. It usually worked out to be around $20-something,
sometimes more, around holidays maybe $40-$50 something. I never cared how
much. However other co-workers would cry if it was low because they felt like
they were "stiffed". Not because they did a bad job, but because they just
expected good tips.

Recently in China, I stayed at the same hotel for a few months. When it was
time for me to leave I asked my co-workers how much should I leave the maid
for a tip. After all she cleaned my room for months. They told me don't leave
her anything. It would be considered an insult because it implied that she
didn't do her very best and maybe more money would have made her do better
work. I was a bit taken back because I _expected_ to tip her. I asked a few
more co-workers and they all said the same thing. Don't tip her. Instead what
I could do if I really wanted to was to leave her something that wasn't money.
Like a gift of some sort. I left her a new Vivo X20 Android phone.

------
laken
I tend to tip more than average, though I usually consider small counter
transactions (like a $3 coffee) to be worth a 15% tip max. I don't like when
the kiosks are configured to either not have 15% as an option, or make it look
like the bare minimum. I do feel that social pressure from the people behind
me or the cashier to tip at least 20% which is the middle option on some of
these, or on some even 25%. Those I feel are often quite high for the level of
service.

------
SubiculumCode
Back in college when I drove pizza delivery, I used to like being assigned to
the upper class neighborhoods.. Nice and safe. That is until, in my
experience, I saw how little they tipped, and how much they expected for it.
Yet when I delivered in the neighborhoods full of gangs, working class folks,
and migrant farmworkers, I'd receive generous tips for my delivery. It was
quite striking. The poor know what a tip means to another poor person.

------
parliament32
The part that really gets me is that they expect you to tip _before_ you
receive any sort of service. You want a tip on how well you took my order so
far?

I go out of my way to add to tip jars after I've actually been served (my
latte has a nice heart on top? awesome). But this whole idea of tip-before is
ridiculous.

I never tip up front if the machine asks for it, and I feel no guilt
whatsoever.

------
frostyj
If you don't think there is anything worth tipping, don't tip. Simple.

------
markbnj
As the father of a current bartender/waitress and the husband of a former I'd
like to say: please don't use the servers as a lever to change this thing,
because if they couldn't rely on tips they couldn't do the job. And then I
thought about it a bit. The question I don't have an answer to: if people
stopped tipping tomorrow, and the average tip was distributed somehow into the
price of the food, would establishments be able to pay a living wage? If they
can't, then that only heaps additional condemnation on the system imo.

~~~
adrr
If everyone stopped tipping for a month the industry would be forced to change
as the labor pool would dry up until wages are increased.

Tipping is part of business strategy to bait and switch people with lower
prices. It's becoming common to hide the real price of things as we see with
tips, resort fees, service charges, booking/ticket printing fees etc. Just
give us the real price upfront.

------
colemickens
I don't know a single service worker or single former service worker that
doesn't tip 15 or 20% as a minimum. Everywhere. The pay disparity between tech
workers and service workers is so severe, it really pains and confuses me to
see so much hand wringing about it.

And if you're protesting the tipping process by not tipping workers who make
less than minimum wage, please don't go around acting like you're noble or
better than those who tip (as has happened multiple times in this thread) That
attitude serves nothing but to soothe your conscience.

------
n1000
Haha. Glad to see this. I’m new to the US and thought the tip was expected...

~~~
behringer
The tip is expected only when you're at a real restaurant. No tip is required
for fast food places. No tip is required up front before you're served.

You should tip hair stylists and restaurant staff that brings you food or
drink. I generally only tip 15 percent and I never tip at a buffet.

~~~
fx32s
Why should you tip the hair stylists though. Isn't the service exactly what
you pay for in the first place (same as taxi/uber)?

For food I can kind of understand of since they decouple serving and
preparation + ingredients.

Note that I am not American and am new to tipping. Just curious

~~~
mikeash
It's really just a matter of whether it's customary, which is only loosely
related to whether it actually makes any sense.

Your taxi driver gets most if not all of your fare, but it's still expected to
tip them. A grocery store cashier gets none of your payment directly, but you
don't tip them. Don't try to make sense of it, just do what others do.

~~~
ghaff
Then there are a fair number of cases where reasonable people disagree. Maid
at hotel, others at hotels/parking attendants/etc., Uber/Lyft, the subject of
this article, limo driver, bartender (in a bar or at an event), and so forth.
You can tip in all those situations but I'd argue it's not the strong
expectation that tipping at a sit-down restaurant is.

~~~
behringer
If you don't tip your bartender you won't get drinks very long!

------
notacoward
Some of the anti-tipping points might be good in an abstract kind of way, but
people who make hundreds of thousands of dollars moralizing to people who make
much less _and have no control of the situation_ over a couple of bucks ...
it's not a good look.

I tip because the people I tip seem to appreciate it. It brings a little more
happiness into the world. I could adopt an attitude that makes neither of us
happy, but why?

~~~
dragonwriter
> I tip because the people I tip seem to appreciate it. It brings a little
> more happiness into the world. I could adopt an attitude that makes neither
> of us happy, but why?

Each individual tipping decision in isolation is a positive, but the aggregate
together preserves a system which is a negative. There's a collective action
problem, and the moralizers are trying to drive defection from the existing
regime to the point where it breaks the problematic system.

Also, the moralizers aren't mostly moralizing to the recipients, but to others
in their same social strata. They aren't trying to get tied workers to defect
from typing, they are trying to get other people like themselves to stop
tipping.

~~~
notacoward
All of which only has any effect other than to hurt service workers _only_ if
everyone goes along. Which ain't gonna happen. Therefore, those who continue
in that vein either consider the outcome acceptable, or just don't really even
care enough to think about it for that one second. Either way, still not a
good look.

~~~
dragonwriter
> All of which only has any effect other than to hurt service workers only if
> everyone goes along.

It doesn't require everyone, or even close to everyone, but it does require a
sufficiently large portion of the customer base to render the tipping regime
untenable.

> Which ain't gonna happen.

I don't think that's actually clear, once you recognize that it doesn't take
everyone.

------
dougmwne
I grab an ice cream about once a week. It's normal Sysco ice cream, nothing
fancy, but the location is always popular with a line. The cashier
aggressively points out the tipping buttons and watches closely while you make
the selection. I watch nearly every person ahead of me tip a dollar for a 4
dollar ice cream. A dollar every thirty seconds. I'm quite jealous of that
hourly rate.

------
objektif
So where does it stop? Should software developers expect a tip if someone uses
their service? Does it matter how mich money they make? I bet some
restauranteurs make so much that they can pass some down to their employees.

I am completely against tipping unless the service is exceptional. If
restaurants in Europe can afford to pay their employees living wages, it
should be possible here as well.

------
minimaxir
Semirelated question: how do you feel about tipping for Uber/Lyft?

A few informal polls awhile ago
([https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/venessawong/theres-
stil...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/venessawong/theres-still-no-
consensus-about-tipping-on-uber)) couldn't come to a consensus.

~~~
mikeash
I really liked it when Uber started up and tips were not part of the
experience. That was always an annoying part of taxis.

Now that it's standard for Uber and similar companies, well, it sucks but
there we are. It's always been customary to tip taxi drivers, so it's not
weird, just an unfortunate failure to change the culture.

------
kreeWall
I was very curious about this and so whipped up a quick poll to share with
friends - feel free to fill it out if you feel so inclined (US only).
[https://goo.gl/forms/ppBBDCkgoeoFJ6tu1](https://goo.gl/forms/ppBBDCkgoeoFJ6tu1)

------
justfor1comment
Tipping makes it very difficult to stick to a budget. This was a big problem
for me when I was a student. I wanted to limit every meal to $10. Since
neither tips nor taxes are included in the prices at restaurants it became
infeasible to eat out. Ended up cooking most of the food at home.

~~~
rtkwe
If you're already setting a budget that strictly why not just take the 2
minutes to figure out what pre-tax&tip total would keep you under $10? With
7.5% sales tax and a reasonable 15% tip 8 dollars pretax comes to 9.80.

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/QLnVR](http://archive.is/QLnVR)

------
nashashmi
Before Square and credit card display readers, shops would have a jar in the
front asking for tips. Rarely people gave tips. But some would.

I can understand tips at restaurants for waiters. I cannot understand tips at
coffee shops and pizza places without waiters. What is the tip for? Pray tell.

------
jjxw
How is this any different than not tipping with cash? Everyone behind you in
line can see whether you put anything into the tip jar. Or is it that there's
some plausible deniability that you can claim with not having cash which isn't
present for card tips?

~~~
X6S1x6Okd1st
You have to make a specific action to not tip in one. The other if you make
they minimal amount of actions (pay for your item, grab the item) then you
haven't taken the action of not tipping.

Also the visual difference between tipping 20% and 10% is huge with this, it's
hard to tell with cash and change

~~~
behringer
and I tip 15 percent, not 20, so if there's no 15 option I just give 10. And
that's only in a sit down restaurant I never tip if I'm not being waited on.

------
gremlinsinc
My rule of thumb: I only tip for full table service, and the amount depends on
how full our drink cups remain. I have tipped though for holidays and things -
esp. for places I frequent where the person behind the counter gives
exceptional service.

------
booleandilemma
Whenever I tip via iPad I never get a thank you in return, I’m not sure they
even notice.

------
BooneJS
On the other hand, Peet's and Starbucks have apps that you pay with and you
don't have to enter a tip to get out of the screen. Starbucks lets you know
that the option to tip will be available for 1 hour.

------
arunmk
The original thought behind tipping was to help waiting staff. Nowadays iPad
based tipping has become the norm in self-service and even carry-out
situations. I believe the article is focussing on that aspect.

------
sys_64738
I don't want to touch your dirty iPad. Thanks, but no thanks.

------
irrational
If I sit down for a meal I always tip 20% (except for that one time the server
was so very bad and only got 10%). Otherwise I always tip 0%.

------
tareqak
Did this thread trigger some sort "too many comments vs. upvotes" threshold? I
think the discussion here was mostly civil.

------
parliament32
[https://archive.fo/CILOc](https://archive.fo/CILOc)

------
module0000
>> You press the middle button so you don’t look cheap to the people behind
you in line

The reasoning is "so you don't look cheap". If "looking cheap" matters to you,
shame will rule your life and your actions. What other people think generally
does not matter - assuming "other people" are not your boss, spouse, or
someone in a direct position to affect you. Not trying to make a case for
becoming a sociopath, but they definitely don't experience that guilt
described in the article.

------
logfromblammo
Here is is again, the guide to tipping in the US. If you are not receiving an
individually-tailored service, _do not tip_. Never tip based on an after-tax
amount. If you receive any portion of your goods or services gratis, tip as
though you were charged the full amount. When paying cash, round up to the
nearest whole dollar. Never tip before the service has been rendered, and only
tip if you are satisfied with it.

For restaurant table service, hair stylist, tattooing, or other personal care
or beauty services, tip 15% of your before-tax bill total. Adjust 5% up or
down in response to perceived service quality.

For a buffet restaurant or food delivery, tip 10% of your before-tax bill
total. Do not adjust the amount; if the delivered order is incorrect or
unforgivably tardy, do not tip.

For bartenders, tip at least 10% of your tab before you leave, minimum $1 per
drink, even if you are paying by the drink. If service was not courteous and
timely, do not tip. Just leave, and do not return. If you'll be getting too
drunk to remember the tip at the end of the night, pay it as you go, with each
drink. Don't tip in advance; that's for low-tippers who want to look like big
shots. Baristas are not bartenders. If you want bar tips, get a liquor license
and put booze in the coffee.

For restaurant counter service, drive-through, street stand, fair kiosk, or
food truck, do not tip. This is the portion relevant to the article. You do
not get a tip for a bog-standard service mandated by the employee manual.
Operating the point-of-sale terminal and handing me the goods I just paid for
is exactly that. No, I will not pay you 20% to hand me a muffin. If an
employee suggests or implies that I should do so, I am less likely to return.
If that tip suggestion is inappropriately embedded in the point-of-sale
process, that's a management problem, and I definitely won't return.

For taxi/driver/shuttle service, tip 10% of the fare. Adjust upward for very
good service, but do not tip less than 10% unless you are tipping nothing for
very poor service.

For baggage handling or porter services, tip 1% the cost of your ticket,
delivered item cost, or daily room rate, per bag/parcel, minimum $1 each.

For hotel concierge, 10% your daily room rate, per service, on checkout. For
hotel maid service, tip 1% your daily room rate, per day, minimum $1, attached
to a note at the end of each week, or left in the room on checkout.

For independent service contractors/small businesses, such as house cleaners
or personal trainers, do not tip, but give an appreciation bonus if you wish
on your yearly customer anniversary, or slightly in advance of the year-end
holidays.

------
jjuhl
No guilt. No tip. Never. If they want more than the listed price they should
raise the listed price. Social customs/expectations/guilt/whatever be damned.
I never tip. Never have, never will.

~~~
LukeShu
The people you hurt by not tipping aren't the people who set the prices.

~~~
jjuhl
That's simply not my problem. Why should I care? If they are unhappy with
their wages they should complain to their employer. It's not my job to fix
their wages.

~~~
pbiggar
> "That's simply not my problem"

That's an unfortunate attitude. I thought a lot like you, but when I realized
the wage disparity here - I could afford to go eat at these fancy places,
which my servers definitely could not - I chose to make it my problem.

Other people's problems are not yours, but if you can choose to help (for
example, if you can afford to help), you should.

~~~
Udik
> Other people's problems are not yours, but if you can choose to help (for
> example, if you can afford to help), you should.

The problem with this is that by tipping you simply move the problem of
underpaid waiters to the next customer and to the next day. If everyone just
stopped tipping, the tips would be included in the prices, everybody would be
paying taxes, and the tipping issue would just cease to exist. The prices
would stay more or less the same, as those are the prices that people are
willing to pay, whether the tip is already included or not.

~~~
pbiggar
> If everyone just stopped tipping, the tips would be included in the prices,
> everybody would be paying taxes, and the tipping issue would just cease to
> exist.

That is not my understanding of how the world works.

~~~
Udik
I agree that if the convention for the tip is a fixed percentage of the value
of the purchase, then a waiter is basically guaranteed a share of the owner's
revenue (revenue, not even profits!)

At the same time, the vast majority of the jobs don't warrant tips- including
all waitressing jobs outside the US- and this doesn't prevent workers from
making a living wage out of them.

So yes, I think that if people stopped tipping, owners would be forced to pay
waiters more, and raise their prices accordingly, as everybody already does
elsewhere. On the other end, it's true that waiters might end up making less
money, as the revenue-sharing model might be unreasonably generous in some
cases.

------
natch
Pay your 20% and where exactly does guilt need to come into it? Pay and move
on.

------
anigbrowl
After all, those muffins just materialized in the display case, everything
here functions so seamlessly that I don't really know why these self-styled
'employees' are cluttering up the place.

~~~
monktastic1
The question is: why not build the cost of those activities into the price of
the food itself, instead of leaving it to customers to figure out?

~~~
anigbrowl
Because the employer wants to display a low price to attract you into the
store, labor protections in the US tend to be weak, and employers tend not to
like transparency about their labor costs - it's an uninteresting distraction
to most consumers and a free gift to the competition. There's a first mover
disadvantage and if the relationship between employer and staff is adversarial
then employees generally lack leverage in corporate-decision-making.

~~~
monktastic1
I'm confused. If the point of your commenting is that tipping is the best way
to achieve the desired outcome (of employees being paid for unseen labor),
then I would have expected your original comment to explain that, instead of
just vaguely hinting that they do indeed deserve to be paid more. I didn't
think anyone was disputing the latter.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.

~~~
anigbrowl
Tipping _is_ the best way to achieve the desire outcome of hospitality workers
being adequately paid until there's a plan to address the first-mover issue I
raised. I also want a frictionless consumer experience but I recognize that
there are competing incentives between corporate actors which obstruct
optimization.

------
pwg
From the article:

> In Connecticut, Mr. Dimyan, who says he feels his $3 coffee is pricey enough
> as it is, vented about the electronic tip prompts in a Twitter post earlier
> this month.

> Square replied from its official Twitter account: “Tap `No Tip.’”

Or.... Pay cash for a $3.00 item?

~~~
Finnucane
Srsly. Is this actually a problem for anyone?

~~~
quasse
Considering that every aspect of my banking is now online (including
depositing checks), yeah, it is actually kind a hassle to have to keep making
trips to one of my bank's ATMs just to refill my supply of small bills so that
I can buy coffee.

~~~
Finnucane
Are you unable to figure out how to select 'no tip' as well? Sorry but I find
this to be a triviality of overprivilege.

~~~
dx87
You replied to a comment saying that people should pay cash, someone says that
they don't carry around cash, so now you're moving the goalposts and saying
the person is privileged and doesn't know how to press the "No Tip" button. If
you stop changing the subject every other comment, maybe you won't be so
confused with people's responses.

------
rayiner
Own your privilege and tip the goddamn 15-20%. If you can afford to spend $3
on a coffee, you can afford to spend $3.60 on a coffee. You almost certainly
make a lot more than the guy or girl behind the counter. (I love the iPad
payment thingy because I always feel guilty never having cash to put in a tip
jar.)

~~~
rabidonrails
Your response misses the point. It isn't that someone who pays $3 for coffee
can't afford the extra 60c but rather that the coffee should just cost 3.60.

Further, is there a difference between someone serving a full meal and someone
that is just punching buttons?

~~~
euroclydon
Tips are a low tech way to scale a service worker's pay with the volume the
store does that day.

