
Cannabis Access and Academic Performance - herendin
http://cee.lse.ac.uk/pubs/abstract.asp?index=4606
======
_98fj
It appears that regular cannabis use [0] decreases dopaminergic brain-activity
[1].

Dopamine is often referred to as "pleasure"-transmitter, but it's function in
certain parts of the brain is better thought of as "regulating expectation",
therefore influencing drive & motivation. It makes it possible to work on
stuff you don't particularly enjoy by focussing on an expected long-term
reward. This works by enabling your conscious thoughts to silence other, more
excitatory and emotional parts of your brain via a feedback-loop. [2]

People with ADHS have trouble concentrating because this feedback-loop doesn't
work well when they're not moving. Sitting still, they are constantly being
flooded with inappropriate and negative emotions. They calm down when taking
stimulants like Ritaline, because the "calming"-function of the brain starts
working properly.

Bottom-line: Cannabis has many good effects, but it definitely blunts
motivation. [3]

[0] rule of thumb: more than once weekly

[1]
[http://www.pnas.org/content/111/30/E3149.abstract](http://www.pnas.org/content/111/30/E3149.abstract)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontostriatal_circuit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontostriatal_circuit)

[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYsTmIzjkw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYsTmIzjkw)

~~~
engx
What you wrote is not definitive.

What is the cause of ADHD? There is no physical test for it and its cause is
unknown. Some experts believe it is caused by other things, like patterns of
thinking.

There is absolutely no evidence that millions of people have a physical
biological issue where a stimulant effects them differently than normal
people.

An amphetamine is an amphetamine is an amphetamine.

And:

A new study challenges the popular idea that dysfunction in dopamine — a
chemical that controls the brain’s reward and pleasure centers — is the main
cause of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).
[http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/11/02/chemical-
imbalance-i...](http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/11/02/chemical-imbalance-is-
probably-not-behind-adhd/61512.html)

In truth, the “chemical imbalance” notion was always a kind of urban legend- -
never a theory seriously propounded by well-informed psychiatrists. -
[http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/blogs/couch-
crisis/psychiatr...](http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/blogs/couch-
crisis/psychiatry-new-brain-mind-and-legend-chemical-
imbalance#sthash.RRX0NFMA.dpuf)

~~~
_98fj
What makes conversations about this very confusing is the fact that
neurotransmitters and "chemical imbalances" cannot be seen in isolation. What
we are talking about is signalling inside particular structures. Changes in
signalling over time effect changes in structure, just like different
behaviour does. (actually different behaviour IS change in signalling)

Thus it's no wonder that psychiatric drugs have so many unpredictable effects.
Administration of amphetamine might calm you, by exciting a down-regulating
part of your brain, that is "structured correctly" (lack of a better word) and
simultaneously give you anxiety by exciting the amygdala. It differs from
person to person.

It's also no wonder that people and scientists interchangeably exclaim
"Behaviour!", "Genes!", "Education!", "Lack of dopamine!" when trying to
explain ADHD. It's a mixture of all of those things, but there is definitely a
genetic component, which seems to make certain kinds of people way way less
apt in controlling their impulses.

Psychiatric drugs don't change the structure of your brain, but, if
administered carefully, they lower the bar to change it by behaviour and
thoughts, thus being ultimately able to get rid of the medication all
together.

~~~
dubhrosa
Genuine question: has there been any study that actually measured the "levels"
of neurotransmitters in the brain and correlated them with the subjects'
behavior? Has there been any study that actually demonstrates what the normal
levels of these chemicals are in adults and children, and what the normal
range is, and what environmental and nutritional factors can influence them? I
ask because I constantly hear the "chemical imbalance" explanation for
behavioural issues and prescribing these drugs, but I have not ever found a
paper that actually provides scientific evidence for this explanation.

~~~
_98fj
I wanted to elaborate on that point. You are completely right.

There are laboratories measuring that stuff from urine and saliva. They are
expensive and the results also need to be controlled for things like normal
thyroid function, so you can map properly derive levels in the brain. Also the
tests need to be done at different times of the day.

The test-results include ranges. Interpreting and correlating the values and
if they are problematic is the work of the few doctors who work with these
labs. A bit like with cholesterol levels in the blood.

A doctor once told me that you can't tell for sure, and there are complete
surprises, but normally, if she sees a result-sheet she can give a relatively
accurate guess about how the person "generally feels" over the day (tired,
happy, hungry, anxious, stressed, relaxed, trouble sleeping or not etc.)

~~~
dubhrosa
What kind of things can they measure from urine and saliva? Can you point at
any literature on this, would love to read more about it.

~~~
_98fj
Adrenaline, Noradrenaline, Dopamine, Serotonine, Cortisol, GABA and many
more...

Just google "lab test" for these.

~~~
dubhrosa
The results all talk about tests that measure levels in the urine or blood,
not the level in the brain, sorry if I'm being thick, but I don't see any
actually measure brain levels.

~~~
DanBC
Parent poster is responding to your question:

> What kind of things can they measure from urine and saliva?

------
compbio
As this is framed more as the results of a policy change, there are some
things to consider when banning weed:

\- Street sales to tourists and foreigners exploded. Small-time dealers
reported weekly income of 2k Euros during the prohibition.

\- Dutch teenagers use less weed than German, UK and Belgian teens. Legal
availability seems inversely correlated with actual use.

\- In France there is no clear distinction between hard drugs and soft drugs.
A dealer will sell you pot, but also heroin.

\- There are other ways to get weed, without using a weed pass. Home growers
will not check the age of the person they are selling to.

Smoking weed in Holland has a social stigma attached to it. It is not cool, it
is for chumps. Policy changes like these may make it dangerous, hidden and
cool again, actually raising our usage to the levels of neighboring countries.

As to the results, I shudder and think: Imagine what Feynman would have been
able to achieve, if he had no access to weed or bongos for seven months...

~~~
pmoriarty
Or consider how shitty music would be if musicians did not have access to pot,
psychedelics, and various other currently illegal drugs.

If you like virtually any 20th or 21st century popular music, you are greatly
indebted to drugs.

~~~
stephengillie
Likewise the vast majority of modern computer software, though alcohol does
share credit. There's a saying that Microsoft wouldn't be able to hire anyone
if they drug tested. (Though Nintendo does drug test.) And, for alcohol,
there's the famous Ballmer Curve:
[https://xkcd.com/323/](https://xkcd.com/323/)

------
DarkContinent
The real concern with this study is not the possible negative effects of
marijuana (which are already known) but the moral correctness of its
legalization. I personally have not and never will smoke pot, but that doesn't
mean I support the continuing ban in America. Everyone has the right to
determine his own destiny, and if engaging in personally (but not socially)
destructive behaviors like smoking pot is a person's chosen destiny, he
shouldn't be held back by dated laws restricting personal freedom.

~~~
andrepd
Would you extend that reasoning to heroin, for instance?

~~~
WorldWideWayne
It's my body, so yes. It's legal to kill an unborn fetus that lives in my
body, but it's not legal to grow some poppies and ingest them? That's
ridiculous to me. It's my body.

Don't make some substance illegal because I _might_ commit some other crime
while pursuing my addiction. Arrest me if and when I commit some other crime.
If shit were legal, it'd probably be pretty cheap anyway because we'd be able
to grow our own.

People who work towards keeping the drug war going are the people who benefit
from it. They do not care about other people's bodies or safety from crime.
They just want their money and power. All sorts of money disappears when drugs
are made legal. Local police can't just seize money anymore, DEA can't have
any funding, CIA can't make any money for black-ops and so on and so forth.
They'll never give that money up, so it's just never going to be legal. Maybe
pot will, but harder drugs - never.

~~~
omginternets
To play devil's advocate, if you apply the same reasoning to seatbelt laws,
the flaws become obvious.

It's your body, yes, but it's our society. Your reckless endangerment costs
money and ties up limited resources.

The fact that prohibition is not an effective strategy makes for a good
argument, but "it's my body" rarely does, IMHO.

~~~
PeterWhittaker
_if you apply the same reasoning to seatbelt laws, the flaws become obvious_

No, not quite: When one drives, one most often drives on shared public roads,
and one's action can directly increase risk to others, costs to those who
maintain the system, etc. E.g., if you are in an accident and unrestrained,
your being unrestrained may place me at greater risk. Your being more
seriously injured due to being unrestrained will have greater social costs
(financial cost of first response, possible PTSD to first responders, etc.).

One can hardly but drive in a public space, one can hardly ever drive in a
private space.

While similar arguments re costs of first response, e.g., can be made about
drug use, drug use _can_ be practiced wholly privately, and, with quality
drugs and with appropriate delivery systems, including training, risks kept
manageable, likely social costs kept low, etc.

Just to play devil's advocate, as you say.

------
zmk_
One thing that jumps at me in this study is the high risk of investigating two
different populations with different characteristics. Foreign students are
more likely to be high achievers (and high-achieving women), quantitative
degrees are also in higher demand from foreigners and more likely to be in
English. If you are Dutch you can pick whatever university/field you want and
they will admit you (exception is medicine); thus there is a higher chance of
low-achievers (who drive the results) to be in that part of the sample. I am
suspicious of results which are driven by the tail of the distribution and die
out in time (when that tail drops out).

~~~
tomp
Didn't the study compare the performance of a group _before_ and _after_ the
marihuana ban, with the natives being the control group? the differences you
list (motivation, skill, effort) didn't change (except as an effect of the
ban).

------
tpllaha
Well... I can see how it can be easy to reach conclusions like this. The same
result (most likely even worse) would be reached even if the effect of alcohol
was studied instead of cannabis. This is not surprising, but neither is it
interesting in my opinion. Of course there is a correlation between time spent
doing mentally engaging activities and success, and surely smoking weed is not
a mentally engaging activity. But this does not imply anything about moderate
consumption in leisure time, neither does it mean that we should never engage
in activities in which we do not exercise our brain.

------
cnp
Like all (good) drugs, they get better when you age. When you're young and
blasted there's no way to make sense of things and responsibilities become
more difficult. When you're older its like a whole new wonderful world to
explore.

~~~
antoniuschan99
I agree with this. If weed becomes legal it should be restricted like alcohol.

------
acomjean
I think things like drugs and alcohol are worse for growing brains. From a NYC
teacher (One reference point)

"I’ve taught high school for 25 years and I hate what marijuana does to my
students. It goes beyond missing homework assignments. My students become less
curious when they start smoking pot. I’ve seen it time and time again. People
say pot makes you more creative, but from what I’ve seen, it narrows my
students’ minds until they only reference the world in relation to the drug.
They’ll say things like: “I went to the beach and got so high,” or “I went to
a concert and got so high.” They start choosing their friends based on the
drug. I hate when people say that it’s just experimenting. Because from what
I’ve seen, it’s when my students stop experimenting.” '
[http://www.humansofnewyork.com/post/129574836736/i-hate-
pot-...](http://www.humansofnewyork.com/post/129574836736/i-hate-pot-i-hate-
it-even-more-than-hard-drugs)

~~~
willholloway
I think this teacher should take this as an opportunity to examine what it is
he, and the institution he works for is offering these students as an
alternative, and consider the students are making rational choices that serve
them better.

We know from the Rat Park study that rats in an enriched environment full of
positive social engagement and freedom do not choose morphine. [1]

If the students are choosing drugs, it's because they are trapped in a bare
metal cage.

For high achievers the do good in high school so you can go to a good college
so you can get a good job track can be financially rewarding, but it is also
stressful, often leads to burn out and depression and at the end a kind of
existential malaise.

For average students this track means bleak economic prospects, low status, a
boring monotony with high student loan debt burden.

Cannabis based friendships while in high school form extremely tight,
rewarding social bonds. With a shared group identity and shared activities.
Going to a concert and getting 'so high' can be an extremely life affirming
peak experience that strengthens social bonds.

If his students are rejecting society's plan for them and choosing another,
perhaps he should examine what it is he is offering. The conclusion often made
from his sentiment is a reflexive authoritarian prohibition.

I know many high achieving friends that rejected society's plan, got high, had
fun and went on to start lucrative tech careers, and started businesses that
are building the future.

I know many other average students that rejected society's plan, got high, had
fun and went on to live rewarding ski-bum lifestyles funded by bar tending,
waiting tables, and small scale real estate investment.

The people with their boot on your face don't have your best interests at
heart. Believe in yourself, and find your own way.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park)

~~~
ludamad
Frankly I'm very skeptical about the idea that people don't use drugs when
fulfilled. There's always stress in modern life, and drugs are always
attractive at some level

~~~
xj9
Yes, but it is much easier to do them responsibly if you have other rewarding
activities to look forward to.

I, for example, spent almost six months high a couple of years ago and loved
it. I stopped because the hippies I was working for ran out of money. I was
about an inch away from homelessness before I managed to get a job as a
software developer. I was sober at work, but I'd get fucked up as soon as I
got home, later with friends, &c. Now that I'm working on my own startup my
drug usage has declined even more. I still get high when I have the chance,
but I have other highly stimulating activities to spend my time on now.

I wouldn't recommend my life choices to anyone else, but there _are_ ways to
responsibly partake of excess.

------
rickdale
I want to note that this is how THC can effect academic performance. There are
other compounds in marijuana other than THC and although THC is the leading
compound in most cannabis, in the medical cannabis world there are certain
strains like Cannatonic that will test 0%THC with 10-20%CBD. CBD is not like
THC and has a lot of different medical benefits associated with it.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol)

------
justifier

       A first step is to have an idea of baseline consumption
       rates for the particular group of individuals who were affected by the policy. To obtain rough
       estimates of these rates, we carried out an anonymous survey among currently enrolled
       students at Maastricht University. To make the question about cannabis consumption less
       Although these are different students to the ones on which we have performance data that we use in the rest of
       the analysis, their baseline consumption rates are relevant for two reasons. First, their demographic 
       salient, we embedded it in a more general questionnaire on risky behavior. In total, 192
       students answered the survey, which is over 97 percent of the students present in the lectures
       where it was distributed. The survey question we focused on asks students if they “have ever
       smoked cannabis or hashish” and if so, when: “ever”, “in the last 12 months”, “in the last 30
       days” or “in the last 7 days”.
    

all ridicule of the data used aside.. they fail completely to address dose

give a kid 2400mg of ibprofen and see how well children function on 'numerical
skills'

------
papaf
I would never argue against science but the following is a true anecdote:

A friend of mine was up all night smoking pot and drinking alcohol. She had a
University exam the next day that involved writing essays.

She picked herself up, went to the exam and passed. She did so well that she
got an award for the best peformance that year.

True story.

------
willholloway
Alcohol is the real threat to cognition, and we don't talk about it. [1] [2]

We don't know where the line is exactly, but somewhere around 4-5 drinks over
a few hours has an acute neurotoxic effect.

Cannabis use in adolescents does not result in changes that can be picked up
on high resolution MRI scans. [3] This is a considerable finding considering
that one would expect changes just from the added stress of being a cannabis
user in a prohibition environment (fear of arrest, fear of expulsion, fear of
parental punishment upon discovery). It may even point to a protective effect
of cannabis on the brain, as we see in Parkinson's and has been seen in other
studies and in stroke. [4]

A UK study on the IQ effects of moderate cannabis use on students did not find
evidence of harm. The study did find significant evidence of cognitive
deficits caused by alcohol use. [5]

Why do young adults want to get high so much? I think the answer is that they
are coping with the stress of being locked into institutions that do not serve
them, do not respect them and offer them very little, while demanding very
much.

One of the themes of Ferris Bueller's Day Off was high school as prison. The
entire movie is a jail break story, and I think it gets to the truth of what
its like to be doing time in high school better than anything.

It's no wonder so many teenagers cope by getting high as much as they can. And
then we blame them, and treat them like criminals, when they are just
sufferers of low mood.

We need a radically different approach to high school education. I think we
need to find a way for people to be more economically useful, economically
empowered and more in control of their lives at younger ages.

[1]
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25702705](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25702705)

[2]
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3183294/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3183294/)

[3]
[http://www.jneurosci.org/content/35/4/1505.short](http://www.jneurosci.org/content/35/4/1505.short)

[4]
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10863546](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10863546)

[5]
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/10/22/no...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/10/22/no-
marijuana-use-doesnt-lower-your-iq/)

~~~
throwawayaway
if people used other drugs as heavily as alcohol is used, then it's not going
to be sunshine and roses. it's the volume of alcohol consumed that's the
problem. too much of anything is bad for you, as the saying goes.

------
peter303
Glad to see some sort of scientific study on this. Too much of the debate is
based on ideology and hearsay, not systematic study.

Colorado sets aside a quarter of its pot taxes for scientific study. Fed
funding sources generally ban or highly restrict such studies. So we dont have
good modern evidence for the claimed benefits or harms of drugs.

~~~
justifier
can you speak more to your findings that this paper is scientific?

i find it frustratingly unscientific in regards to what i consider scientific
investigation

------
coetry
PHP fascinates me when I'm high :), I usually incline towards languages in
which I can enjoy the syntax (clojure and ruby), but when I'm baked, I enjoy
the pure act of coding;translating my thoughts into binary manifestations. I
think there should be more studies on how weed impacts learning.

------
thenerdfiles
"We find that the academic performance of students who are no longer legally
permitted to buy cannabis increases substantially."

Pfft.

For my own case, when I smoke cannabis, my brain becomes hyperactive. I want
to resolve all of my codesmell at once. I want to finish all of my code at
once. My writing becomes "electric". My writing becomes transcendental and on
fire — why do I become electric, yet all of these students become unmotivated
globs? Tell me why this is the case before you moralize and vilify such a
beautiful plant!

So maybe it's me. Or maybe the lot of you just don't know how to smoke and
ritualize the practice. Maybe you all have a flawed philosophy to begin with,
or worse, you don't have a philosophy about what you're smoking — to begin
with.

As Kafka notes:

The unfitness of the object may cause one to overlook the unfitness of the
means. — Franz Kafka

~~~
antoniuschan99
I think it has to do with the maturity of the smoker. Since you probably have
an established career or passion, weed tends to amplify that. Whereas with
students, they are still maturing and figuring their lives out and since
marijuana amplifies that they become even more lazy? Just my 2 cents

------
joesmo
So is there evidence of this in states where cannabis access has been
legal/decriminalized for at least a decade like California, Washington, and
the Netherlands as a whole? It sounds like a significant portion of students
from those states should be consistently underperforming each year compared to
other states and to students before legal access was allowed.

------
guard-of-terra
Steve Yegge comes to rescue:

[http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2009/04/have-you-ever-
legali...](http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2009/04/have-you-ever-legalized-
marijuana.html)

So... one minor, teeny-weeny almost insigificant caveat before I continue: I
have smoked marijuana (and inhaled it, deeply) on more occasions than I can
count. And yet I'm almost undoubtedly smarter than your kid that you're so
goddamned worried about. I skipped three grades (3rd, 7th and 8th), entered
high school at age 11 and graduated at age 14, took A.P. courses, had stellar
SAT scores, was a U.S. Navy nuclear reactor operator, went to the University
of Washington and earned a Computer Science degree, worked at major
corporations like Amazon.com and Google for many years as a senior staff
engineer and/or senior development manager, and now I'm an internationally
famous blogger.

I don't usually dwell on that, but today it's relevant. It's relevant because
I've smoked a LOT of pot, and I dare you to prove that it has impaired me in
any scientifically detectable way. We would debate, and you would lose;
nevertheless I double-dog dare you.

~~~
Camillo
That doesn't even make sense. Who's to say he would not have done _even
better_ if he had not smoked pot? How can he assume his case generalizes
across the population? How does someone who is So Very Smart not realize this?
Did his AP courses not give him an inkling of the scientific method?

For what it's worth, that blog post caused a tiny _increase_ in my propensity
to believe marijuana is harmful.

~~~
engx
And maybe Yegge would had accomplished less without weed? The point is, he
still accomplished all that while having smoked a lot of weed. True you can't
generalize across the population but his story is still relevant. Maybe
Francis Crick would had invented time travel if it wasn't for LSD.

I know 10 doctors and surgeons, and the majority smoke weed and do cocaine
(not everyday / nor every week). I wouldn't say they are great people though.

