
Android - okeumeni
http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2010/10/android.html
======
thought_alarm
But the iPhone and iPad aren't priced at a premium.

Anyway, it's a mistake pit Google against Apple. The real battle will be
between Google and Microsoft for the exact same hardware manufacturers and
sales channels. (Meanwhile, you can buy an iPad from an Apple Store or from
Walmart without any carrier involvement).

Google hasn't managed the fragmentation problem very well, they haven't done
enough to control the quality the Android OS between carriers and
manufacturers, and they've utterly mismanaged the Android Market. I'm no fan
of Microsoft or WinMo 7, but I expect Microsoft to do a much better job at
addressing all of those issues.

Microsoft can also leverage their Zune desktop software.

And Microsoft's development tools are generally very popular with developers.
I've done some work with WPF and I found it very impressive and I would expect
their Phone SDK to be of similar quality. On the other hand, even though I
generally like Java I'm finding the move from iPhone development to Android
development to be a depressing step backwards both in terms of the dev tools
and especially the SDK.

Then again, it is Microsoft we're talking about. It may take them another 3 or
6 years to get it right.

~~~
orangecat
_Google hasn't managed the fragmentation problem very well, they haven't done
enough to control the quality the Android OS between carriers and
manufacturers, and they've utterly mismanaged the Android Market._

All true, and still they've had great success. (I'm actually surprised, given
how bad the Market is and how blatantly the carriers are screwing up the
phones). Which just means they can do even better if they can address those
obvious problems.

 _On the other hand, even though I generally like Java I'm finding the move
from iPhone development to Android development to be a depressing step
backwards_

It was the opposite for me. Between getting rid of header files and manual
memory management, and having the app run right away on my phone rather than
futzing with certificates, I'm enjoying Android development much more.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"All true, and still they've had great success."_

I'd argue they haven't. The success would've been the adoption of the platform
- but as far as I can see none of the major Android phone vendors actually
support the platform - they see it more as a way to skimp on software
development costs, and offload it onto Google instead. There's little to no
interest in even updating the phones, or supporting the platform as a whole.

I feel that Google has been taken for a ride by Motorola, HTC, et al - there's
a lot of lip service paid to Android, but none of their actions have helped
solidify the platform, instead being treated simply as free code. The fact
that there are a lot of units of hardware moving off shelves means little,
IMHO, for the long-term success of the platform.

~~~
gaius
_I feel that Google has been taken for a ride by Motorola, HTC_

That's fair play tho' - Google sought to commoditize handsets.

------
jawngee

        Windows lacked the fit and finish of the Macintosh.
        But it didn't matter. Because there were hundreds
        of Windows machines whereas there was only a few
        variations of Macintosh, all controlled by the
        same company and priced at a premium.
    

Windows is priced at a premium, you just don't feel it because the cost is
rolled into the cost of whatever piece of kit you just bought. Is our memory
so shallow as to forget the anti-trust methods that brought Windows to
dominance? It wasn't because the market wanted it, it was because that's what
was crammed down the throat of the market.

    
    
        And the most recent Android Foursquare build has finally
        delivered the awesome Foursquare iPhone experience to Android.
    

That line sort of says it all, doesn't it? How many times have you heard that
the other way? "delivered the awesome Android experience to the iPhone" - yeah
probably never.

I'm just bitter because I've been working on a html5 version of my site
specifically for Android, and it's a major PITA. The 4 android phones I have
all behave differently, the different OS versions have their own quirks and
bugs. And the hardware, god the hardware! Awful.

~~~
davidw
> Is our memory so shallow as to forget the anti-trust methods that brought
> Windows to dominance? It wasn't because the market wanted it, it was because
> that's what was crammed down the throat of the market.

Yes, that came along eventually, but might I suggest a read of "20 years of
high tech marketing disasters"? The author suggests that Microsoft came to
dominate only thanks to other players in the market screwing up more than they
did. IBM and Apple being amongst those who make the biggest mistakes.

And I do not say that as a Microsoft fan. Once they _did_ get an advantage,
they used it for all it was worth, to try and expand their monopoly into
market sectors. That is what they were convicted of.

~~~
gruseom
Quite right. The monopolist behavior came years after their original success,
and doubtless in the minds of MS's leader(s) was no different from the scrappy
competitiveness they had always practiced.

MS were smart, but also lucky in their competitors. Digital Research deserves
a place of honor on your list. And most things I've read about Netscape seem
like they were so afraid of being killed by MS that they killed themselves
instead.

------
pkaler
I know of no Android tablet available in the $199 price range. Someone please
point one out if one exists.

The argument that Windows won because Macintosh was priced at a premium is a
dubious argument.

Apple is able to purchase flash memory, processors, and touch screens in bulk.
They own Intrinisty and PA Semiconductor.

Apple looks like Walmart on their supply side and looks like Barney's on the
retail side. There is no price pressure. They could slash their margins but
they don't have to. It's still difficult to find an iPad and iPhone 4. They
can't make enough of them.

Secondly, 95% market share is unnatural. It doesn't happen often. Markets look
more like GM/Chrysler/Ford or XBox/PlayStation/Wii. I suspect the smartphone
market will develop similarly.

And if you want to say that the iPhone will be crushed like the Macintosh was
crushed by Windows then it is just as easy to say that Android will be crushed
the same way Sun Microsystems and Novell were crushed when Eric Schmidt was
there.

~~~
miratrix
Looks like Archos has a 7 inch tablet that they sell for $199, though it
doesn't have 3G access. Archos has been around for a while and are known to
build fairly solid hardware, so this isn't some drive-by-night operation
hawking crap on late-night informercial either.

[http://www.archos.com/products/ht/index.html?country=us&...](http://www.archos.com/products/ht/index.html?country=us&lang=en)

edit: er, apparently it still runs android 1.5...

~~~
mgkimsal
I still can't just walk in to major stores and get these. I can go to Apple
stores, or Best Buy, and now target, to get an ipad (and Best Buy, AT&T, etc
stores for iPhones). :(

And, yeah, you pointed out the 1.5 issue. Google needs to do a better job of
getting Android licensees to update their versions. There should be no one
selling a new device in October 2010 only running 1.5.

edit: I can't walk in to stores in my area. Some stores report they have some
archos tablets, but they're generally not there when I go.

~~~
jawee
I've seen Archos Android tablets in stores for longer than the iPad has been
out, such as at Best Buy.

Besides that, there are plenty of Android tablets out there for various
prices.. and build quality of course.

[http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AkYukCg_h8T-cmRtOGMy...](http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AkYukCg_h8T-cmRtOGMyWmZTREtkNWwtZFZ5NFNybkE&gid=3)

------
jwr
I find it interesting that most people who like Android like it in the future
tense.

Android is always great, but in that next version, that is just around the
corner. That upcoming tablet, that upcoming phone, that upcoming software.

~~~
ericflo
Android is "good enough" now for lots of people, which shows in its sales.
That Android owners can point at future products and get excited for upcoming
features is just icing on the cake.

~~~
Fluxx
This is very true. Apple products are luxury products which, IMO, are worth
the money. UX, design and the "it just works" factor are worth the premium.
But for most people, cost/availability is the gating factor so Android phones
are totally fine for them.

------
jsz0
I hate when people cheer lead for one particular gigantic corporation to _own
the market_ History shows that isn't very good for consumers. Why not cheer
lead for a healthy diverse market with lots of competition?

~~~
tomjen3
As a developer you want to target only on phone, and you then want that phone
to have as wide a market-share as possible, so you will have more people who
can buy your app.

As a user, you want to buy only one phone and then want that phone to have as
wide a market-share as possible so there will be more apps for it.

As a competing phone manufacture you are outnumbered, so it doesn't matter
what you want.

------
Mongoose
One thing I'd like to see is Android have more of a presence in universities.
It'd give CS students useful exposure to mobile development and allow them to
put all of the Java that gets crammed down their throats to good use.

~~~
moondistance
I teach the intro. to HCI course at a Canadian university. The course project
includes the design and implementation of a mobile app. I'll be using this
article as evidence that my students should develop for Android rather than
the iPhone.

Most would prefer to develop for the iPhone, and are taking steps to gain
access to Macs and developer accounts for that purpose. This will be a nice
push in the other direction.

~~~
YooLi
Sorry if this sounds mean, but using this article as evidence is a poor
decision. The article contained one mans opinion with no support to any of his
arguments. Yelp and FourSquare finally look as good as iPhone? Dad wants a
tablet so he should get a $200 Android tab? Where is this $200 iPad
competitor? It's not the Galaxy Tab that was just made available in Russia for
$1200. There's no ne else.

By all means teach your class Android if they want it, but don't use _this_
article as proof that they should.

~~~
moondistance
Thanks for the feedback. I definitely worded my comment too strongly. Of
course that article isn't strong evidence.

We're supporting both Android and iPhone.

------
GHFigs
_Because there were hundreds of Windows machines whereas there was only a few
variations of Macintosh, all controlled by the same company and priced at a
premium._

By this formula, one ought to have been bullish about PlaysForSure--a platform
with over a dozen music stores and compatible player devices from almost two
dozen vendors. But we saw what happened there: the platform was beaten by a
single store with a few variations of player all controlled by the same
company and priced at a premium.

Neither example is strongly predictive, but I think this one is a bit more
relevant, for reasons which should be obvious.

------
akamaka

      Windows lacked the fit and finish of the Macintosh. But
      it didn't matter. Because there were hundreds of Windows
      machines whereas there was only a few variations of Macintosh...
    

This has long been the conventional wisdom, but given recent history, I'm less
and less convinced that it's true. There's a myriad of other factors to
consider, like hardware decisions, marketing strategies, and much more.

It's really quite imprudent to bet on Android for only that reason.

~~~
protomyth
I sometimes wonder if Novell didn't help Microsoft in the business market more
than seems to get reported. Novell provided a pretty good (for the time)
networking solution that allowed decent management.

------
protomyth
The one thing I really don't get about this type of article is the predictions
based on a management team that isn't at the company. Apple's current
management team was behind the iPod strategy and inherited an already niche
market with the Macintosh. I don't look to the actions of Thomas Edison to
determine what GE next strategy will be.

With the iPod they started with a "high" price and introduced models that
filled in the low-end. They also built and ecosystem around it.

Also, this "there-can-be-only-one" crud doesn't really happen in many markets.

------
jscore
I use a Nexus One as my daily phone since it came out in January, and it's
hard to say whether Android software/hardware experience will ever catch up to
Apple's standard.

The touchscreen on the iPhone is state of the art, with my N1, I need to touch
something once or twice, which never happens with iPhone.

Same for keyboard on the iPhone, it's light years better than any of the
dozens implementations for Android. I don't care for predictive text so much
as just a great spell checker.

Also compare the Facebook app on both phones. Android's is not there yet.

~~~
sandipc
Have you tried Swype?

~~~
jscore
I have, yes. I still prefer the iPhone keyboard.

------
albertzeyer
What Android tablet is he talking about? I don't know any comparable to the
iPad.

~~~
glhaynes
Yeah, what a bogus argument. "What if I could give you an iPad-equivalent for
just 99 cents? And if you act now, I'll throw in a free pony."

~~~
greyman
Why bogus? The question is completely valid. The article suggested there is
something comparable to iPad, only running on Android and costing $200...while
the current reality is that only comparable tablet is Samsung galaxy pad,
which is not yet in the stores, and is priced higher than Android. And no,
Archos isn't there yet.

------
srwh
We discussed this before... but... what if Microsoft developer tools are
better than Apple (xcode) and Android (eclipse) ? what if any guy can develop
some software in a few days while doing the same for Android and the Apple
takes 2x o 3x? what if Silverlight experience is better than html5 or native
UIs? And... what if connecting games between desktop, xbox and mobile works?

Many "What IFs", but for me the developing tools and silverlight are key. Also
on the RIM side QNX is a very promising bet against Linux/iOS/Windows, the
demo doesn't feel real, but QNX is a strong OS.

~~~
mahmud
Have you written code for Android? To make it any easier, you would have to
advance the state of IDE and language integration by a few decades. Sure, it
doesn't let you draw widgets by hand and attach callbacks all in an instant,
like Visual Basic, but, for an API, it the simplest, most obvious thing you
can imagine.

And FWIW, I do my Android hacking with emacs and a shell buffer.

~~~
gecko
I kind of passionately disagree. I think that both Apple and Microsoft's tools
blow Android's out of the water. Objective-C and C# are more pleasant
languages; the graphics libraries are in vastly better shape (ever wonder why
Android scrolling blows so much compared to iPhone?); tools for profiling and
the like are vastly better; etc.

Android's tools don't suck, but I think they're objectively inferior to
Apple's and Microsoft's across the board.

~~~
mahmud
True. And private gardens are superior to public parks.

Android at least has garbage collection .. native C interface, and it's open
to you as your mother's arms.

If Android lacks anything, it's only a matter of time before it's fixed. The
cat is out of the bag, and the OS of the mobile future is Google's as much as
it's yours and mine. For every polished iPhone handset sold, there are three
crappy but wide-open android devices sold to hungry minds. iPhone is the best
mobile OS today, in terms of polish and usability, but Android _powers_
devices that haven't been conceived yet!

Poor grad students in EE and CS are all over the mailing-lists, asking for
help with Android ports to their cheap boards. They're ambitious, confused,
tired and hungry. They don't know what they're doing .. yet. They're just
making use of what they have, a Free OS that does the basics. However, said
students, amateurs, wannabes and beginners number in the millions .. the
little busy bees are hard at work, reading, writing, and hacking, and in five
years time, when they know better, when they're more capable, when they
graduate and funded, you can bet your last dime they will make this a Free
Android world. Neither Apple nor Microsoft have enough money to buy people's
free will and self-interest.

I said this before and I will say it again; Android is on par with LAMP and
GCC in terms of impact. It's not a piece of infrastructure software, it's a
fundamental right for the mobile future, and will power far more dreams than
any niche or specialty mobile platform, which iOS and the others are destined
to be.

~~~
YooLi
In all fairness you are lumping a whole bunch of devices together. I have no
doubt that Android will find its way into all sorts of products, much like
other flavors of Linux already have. Most people have no idea that Linux is
powering their network gear, web cams, etc., but they don't need to. No one
thinks to themselves "wow, my microwave is using embedded Linux, I'm going to
get a Linux notebook."

Apple is making the best phone and tablet os that they can. That is their
goal. If it means it's also the best in the market, then they will be rewarded
by people buying their products. They haven't lost because iOS isn't being
installed on a printer.

~~~
mahmud
You are looking at people who buy mobile devices as accessories or luxury
items. I, on the other hand, want to develop tablets for medical assistance,
mostly diagnosis, translation and record keeping, and deploy them in my home
country of Somalia, and the refugee camps in Kenya.

Whether Apple sells X units or makes Y dollars is immaterial to me. All I care
about is that every Android source file begins with a preamble that's sweeter
than Aretha and Whitney to my ears: it promises me Freedom. Freedom to share,
copy, clone, sell, give away. And from my experience, Dan Bornstein and the
gang, bless their hacking souls, are here to assist me.

My "users" might never care what powers their doctors' tablets (they don't
even know what an OS is, in fact, most of them can't read) but I do. I know I
can fly back to ShenZhen and shop for boards, case, power chords, and save
money. And in the end, have a Free, world-class operating system waiting for
me.

To me Android is not a privilege, it's a right. It's what I will use to help
my people. And there are millions like me who outnumber luxury mobile users by
a huge margin.

This is where my heart is at:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1726986>

~~~
stakent
For under $100 one can buy Android tablet delivered from China. Small one, 7"
screen, low battery life time 3 hours.

Or more pricey ones with 8", 10" screens, less or more branded.

Or, for example, Android netbook from Sony, definitely not cheap.

Or chose from several dozens of phones with prices starting from about $200.

About software development Mahmud wrote enough in comments.

~~~
mahmud
Yes, I said "I can fly back to ShenZhen".

I shipped nearly every type of electronic piece from China. $100 is not the
bottom, it's the ceiling. I have been in this business (gadget hardware) since
2004.

But I have a feeling you were not replying to me ;-)

~~~
stakent
Yes, it was placed here to complement what you have written about social needs
which will be fulfilled by Android. Android as an OS plus many vastly
different hardware platforms.

This not a gadget for the rich. It is now available for normal people.

------
nkurz
I've heard the "fit and finish" argument frequently, both in print and in
person as the owner of an HTC Incredible. I don't really see it myself,
though. Sure there are a lot of junky looking 3rd party apps, but this is true
of iPhone as well. Unlike early Windows vs Mac, I don't have this reaction to
the base system.

What are people reacting to when they say this? Or is it just a canned
response?

~~~
zzzmarcus
I'm a full-time Android developer. I alternate between using a Nexus One and
an iPhone 4 as my main phones.

One of the big differences is that iOS devices have hardware accelerated
graphics. You don't really notice how weak transitions and animations are on
Android until you get used to using an iPhone. It's a subtle difference, but
it's real and it makes a difference.

Other "fit and finish" advantages that the iPhone has: -The lack of a back
button. On Android it's great in theory, but in practice it's unpredictable.
Depending on where you are it might kick you out of the app you're in or it
might take you up a level in the hierarchy or it might take you to the
previous document you viewed. The iPhone is better for avoiding this ambiguous
navigation.

-A single place for storing apps. It's frustrating running out of space for apps on Android and having to worry about moving them to the SD card. On the iPhone you have games that are bigger than 1gb and you don't have to think twice about installing them or about where they go.

-The iPhone's app store is still better than the Android Market. There are good apps in both, but the iPhone still makes it much easier to discover the best apps. Between having Genius, lists like top grossing and most downloaded, better categories, and better reviews it's just overall a nicer experience.

-The iPhone's music player is better. It has the downside of requiring sync with iTunes but once you have your music on there it's much nicer. It's easier and faster to browse. It's got features like Genius and 2x speed for audiobooks and coverflow, which despite not being super useful, runs fast and smooth.

-The iPhone's camera is faster than any Android device's camera I've tried. It makes a big difference when you're trying to capture a fleeting moment if the shutter lags half a second from the time you press the button. On the iPhone it's instantaneous.

-It's a new feature on the iPhone, but folders for home screen icons is great. The default Android launcher feels outdated.

All that having been said, there are a ton of nice things on Android. Built in
voice nav is awesome, being able to share data between apps, the way intents
are handled and the ability to set defaults is nice, and there are a ton of
other things I love about Android, but since you asked about what people are
talking about when they say the iPhone has fit and finish, these are the big
ones in my opinion.

~~~
pavlov
_One of the big differences is that iOS devices have hardware accelerated
graphics. You don't really notice how weak transitions and animations are on
Android until you get used to using an iPhone. It's a subtle difference, but
it's real and it makes a difference._

It's weird that Android still doesn't have this. Even tired old Symbian is now
using GPU acceleration for display compositing...

~~~
num1
There's a bug in the tracker but it's been shut down for now. The google rep's
answer was "This is something we've investigated a couple of years ago already
and that we revisit regularly. Of course we thought of using the GPU, but
there are non-trivial issues on many Android devices (a G1-class device for
instance supports only one OpenGL context at a time, which would prevent you
from using any OpenGL based app like games or augmented reality apps.) In our
past experiments we even found many cases in which using the GPU was slower
than normal rendering. New devices might allow us to overcome the past
limitations that made GPU support a not-so-good solution. The "choppiness" and
"lagginess" you are mentioning are more often related to heavy garbage
collection than drawing performance"

<http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=6914>

~~~
spiffworks
No phone left behind?

------
moultano
It's already massively outselling the iPhone. Do we even need to speculate
that it's going to be an important platform for a long time?

~~~
andrewljohnson
Nokia dumbphones massively outsell iPhones too, but as far as developers are
concerned, the only real game in town is iPhone development. Android apps
don't make nearly as much money for us mobile developers, and device sales
aren't going to solve that problem alone.

So yeah, speculation is warranted. I'm deeply embroiled in the market, and I
think the jury is out.

~~~
moultano
Do they also have a positive derivative?

~~~
andrewljohnson
So confused by your question :)

------
ndl
Ever since "losing" to Microsoft on the desktop, Apple have slowly perfected
their strategy for being the smaller alternative. They find the most lucrative
niche and design to the point where they can own that piece of the market.
Built into Apple products is a sense of superiority, the feeling that the rest
of the world is jealous and frustrated. It's in their ads, and its in their
users. This has shown its effectiveness in the computer market, and it will
probably make them a ton of money on the mobile scene as well.

But Apple didn't have to do this in the mobile world. The iPhone was the
default smartphone. I was once talking with a rather avid iPhone user who he
asked me "what's the market for Android?" I fina;ly convinced him that it
could be everyone when I replied, "what's the market for Windows?"

The iPhone is a product. It has a target niche, a company behind it, a list of
features, and everything else one expects. Android is not - it's a platform.
The Droid is a product. The Nexus one is a different product. Like Windows,
Android twists and bends to the offerings of each vendor. Android has the more
scalable long tail strategy - instead of trying to please your customers
directly, let the market mold your product into as many forms as it will pay
for.

I don't think that Apple have necessarily screwed up. They may have given up
the big fish, and they may have had a reason. For one, Apple are doing what
they're best at. They also may have a strategy that integrates with the Mac.
They may also be right. Maybe the mobile phone isn't the next computer. Maybe
it's like the iPod, best at doing one thing very well.

I think Apple is making a mistake in breaking developer trust. As long as they
keep market dominance, people will keep coming back to them, but as the
numbers show, Android is poised to surpass. When there are many more Androids
out there than iPhones, iPhone dev is gonna be a tough sell.

~~~
irons
_When there are many more Androids out there than iPhones, iPhone dev is gonna
be a tough sell._

What do you think the ratio of Android-to-iOS installed base is going to have
to be before the median Android developer is making as much money as the
median iOS developer? To get to that point, how many significantly different
Android devices is an Android developer going to be expected to target?

Looking at this market through the context of the PC wars of the 90s is a
mistake, as is assuming that developer allegiance is a function of handset
sales.

------
tlrobinson
_"When he told me his primary uses of the tablet will be Google Docs, Gmail,
and Google Calendar, I told him he'll be better off with Android."_

Or Chrome OS, if it ever ships.

~~~
cryptoz
Chrome OS is supposed to ship in November. It has been that way for about a
year now. I've heard this tone a lot lately, about Chrome OS not shipping.
Nobody ever said it would arrive before Nov 2010...just be patient. Google
will deliver as promised.

------
netcan
An interesting thing that comes out in a lot of these topics is how people are
historical determinists when it come to tech platforms.

"The way OS wars work is..."

To me it seems like so much is different that I'd be very hesitant to have
such a strong opinion. The players are established companies, it's phones and
tablets (cheaper devices with shorter lives), the web is the killer app,
software development is easier (in many ways), it's twenty years later....

~~~
SwellJoe
And yet Apple have been making the same mistakes they made during the original
PC wars.

~~~
netcan
That's what I'm talking about (or are you being disingenuous). Calling them
mistakes (I assume you mean creating the more closed environment) is assuming
that OS wars inevitably play out a certain way.

~~~
SwellJoe
I'm not sure what could be interpreted as disingenuous about my comment.

Openness is not a tactic of any particular war. It is simply the best thing
for consumers and developers. The notion that openness doesn't matter in this
"war" just because the devices look different and the battleground is the web,
is nonsensical. I would argue that openness matters _even more_ now than it
did in the late 80s and early 90s, because the form factors are more widely
varied, and the number of people who can directly participate is dramatically
higher.

Regardless of Apple fanboyism and arguments about the war being "different
this time", Android is already winning. There are more Android phones shipping
than iPhones.

~~~
netcan
hey. hey.

I'm on no particular side of anything. I'm not arguing that openness doesn't
matter. I can't figure out where you got that. Of course you can argue that
openness is more important. My observation is that when people do make those
kind of arguments they make a sort of a deterministic argument surprisingly
often.

Incidentally, the rest of this thread is a good place to make your argument
that android is already winning.

------
Caligula
I have been debating fiddling wither win7 or android.

What is a good android phone to test/develop with? Is the nexus still the best
choice?

~~~
mahmud
You can start hacking Android without a phone. The emulator is just cool :-)

~~~
jawngee
The emulator is a dog. Compared to the iPhone anyways.

It's useless for web development.

~~~
mahmud
How many platforms does the iPhone emulator run on? Is it instrumentable and
controllable by user applications using nothing but sockets and octets? Didn't
think so :-)

Android emulator is slow to start, but it's cross-platform, and allows for
hot-updating.

~~~
billjings
I have just about completely ditched the android emulator because it is
irritatingly slow and I'm constantly finding it with its pants down trying to
talk to eclipse. At our company we've also found that it doesn't give an
accurate idea of how readable the text is in your interface, or how easy it is
to interact with, partly because it's just too big on the screen and partly
because it's sluggish.

It is at its most useful when I want to pull a file from internal storage,
which often isn't possible on a device, or when I don't have a device handy,
in which case it is a passable solution. It's never, ever my first choice,
though.

~~~
biafra
I use the emulator for continuous integration. Its really helpful for unit-
and integration-testing. Combine it with Robotium and you can thoroughly test
you application across screen sizes and Android OS Versions.

~~~
stakent
Thank you for pointing out Robotium.

Can you elaborate more about your test setup?

TIA

~~~
biafra
I use the maven-android-plugin to build the dependencies in seperate modules.
I have a patched version of bouncycastles crypto implementation (to have
openpgp in android). Then there is the network code which also contains no
android dependencies so it can be tested without the emulator.

Another module is the App itself. The last module is the TestApp. This is the
recommended Test Setup:
[http://developer.android.com/guide/developing/testing/testin...](http://developer.android.com/guide/developing/testing/testing_otheride.html)

The testapp and the app are copied to the emulator or a real device. Then the
instrumentation is started. The maven build fails if any error or failure
occurs while building, installing or testing.

The continuous integration is done by hudson. The emulator can be started
"headless" (-no-window) so it doesn't need to connect to the running XWindow-
Server. Currently I am starting the emulator from maven with a special profile
that is only used in hudson. When testing locally I usually have my phone
already connected. It seems to be possible to have hudson start the emulator.
With that setup logcat-output would be captured by hudson. Thats were I want
to go.

Also missing in my setup is an multi environment build with all screen
resolutions, locales and OS-Versions.

~~~
stakent
Thank you again.

Btw. I've upvoted your response, but still see one point next to it. Strange.

------
stcredzero
It's inevitable that the mobile phone backed by the cloud is going to take the
place of the Personal Computer. A pocket sized device will _be_ your personal
computer. Larger form factors will only exist to provide input and display
facilities that can't live in the pocket-sized one.

------
tjr
Five years ago I think I had some Samsung phone, maybe; I don't remember for
sure. Or that might have been the year that I first got a Palm Treo. I went
through three Palm Treos because they kept failing.

Maybe the iPhone, or Android, or both, will still be with us long-term. Maybe
not. I don't really get majorly attached to my mobile phone; if the iPhone
isn't the most totally awesomest phone for me next time I get a new one, then
maybe I'll get something else, and leave the iPhone as a distant memory, along
with the Samsungs, and the Motorolas, and the pile of defunct Palm Treos. (For
that matter, I already have my original iPhone stuffed away somewhere, while
my shiny new iPhone 4 is in active use...)

------
fredwilson
wow

great conversation

i am just seeing this now

i wish disqus could pick up this entire discussion and post it into the
comments on my blog

it would greatly enrich the conversation there and i would be able to engage
in real time, not a day later

------
code_duck
I've noticed that too, that Google seems to have created the Windows of mobile
phones, while Apple, of course, is the Apple of mobile phones.

So, where does that leave Microsoft?

------
waterlesscloud
I keep putting off doing anything on android because of java. I don't know
java, and I don't really want to learn it. I suppose I will give in
eventually, for android, but it will be grudgingly.

~~~
tomjen3
If you don't know Java, what do you have against it?

~~~
waterlesscloud
To some extent it's aesthetic. Java seems bureaucratic and verbose and
just...clunky.

Part of this is just where I'm coming from. I started programming as a kid
with basic, then assembly, like most programmers my age. Then pascal and C in
college, got a job doing C++ and did that for a number of years. Dabbled in a
working in php at the end of that, seemed a little sloppy as a language.

Then I just stopped programming for a long while. Did other things for a
living, other things for hobbies. I'd burned out on programming because I
wasn't doing the sorts of things I wanted to be doing with it.

Now I'm getting back into it and I just don't have any interest in Java. It
feels like it's designed for slow, plodding steps, and writing code in it
feels like I'm doing a lot of favors for the language rather than working on
something interesting.

Right now I'm building small stuff in Python and dabbling in Clojure. Python
lets me feel like the language is not at all a source of friction. I write the
code as fast as I know what the code should be doing. Java does not feel like
that at all. It's got its limitations, and there's certain things I'd drop
back into C for if I wanted to do them, but Python is a language I can almost
ignore while I'm using it, if that makes sense.

Clojure is a whole different animal, and I'm mostly using it to stretch my
brain a bit. Get some concepts I'd like to learn.

~~~
SapphireSun
I have to chime in that I also feel that Java is much as you said. I wanted to
write some reflective code, and it took me an hour (admittedly doing it for
the first time) and 57 lines of code. Frustrated, I did a mock up of it in
python to see what the difference would be. It was only 12 lines, and much
more intelligible. It was also much faster to write, but that isn't a fair
comparison since the research into the function requirements had already been
done.

~~~
tomjen3
Java is very difficult to use without an IDE, but if do use one it would have
taken you much, much less time.

But yeah, using Java means you have to write many lines of code.

------
mjfern
This article by Fred Wilson (AVC) highlights the rise of Android and ARM as
the dominant players (and standard) in the next wave of computing (along with
Apple and others as strong niche players).

For the last several decades, the Wintel standard has dominated personal
computing (PC). If we look at current market share data, Microsoft’s and
Intel’s position in the PC market appears unassailable. As of September 2010,
the Windows OS controlled 91% of the PC market (Net Applications, 2010), while
Intel microprocessors controlled just over 80% (IDC, 2010).

But what if personal computing is shifting away from desktops and packaged
applications, the stronghold of Windows and Intel, to a combination of “thin
devices,” cloud computing, and online media? Thin devices are smartphones,
tablets, connected televisions, and a myriad of other devices that connect to
the cloud to access various online media, from video to social networking.

In view of this transition, the future actually looks quite bleak for
Microsoft and Intel, despite their strong position in the PC market. Microsoft
has struggled mightily in the smartphone and online media markets, and is
reluctant to aggressively enter the cloud in fear that it will cannibalize
sales of Windows and Office. Meanwhile Intel has struggled to produce
microprocessors that appeal to thin device OEMs, where energy efficiency is
prioritized over sheer computing power.

If Microsoft and Intel, and the Wintel standard are fading, then which
companies and which standards are rising? Apple has been pushing the frontier
in computing with its collection of thin devices (iPod Touch, iPhone, iPad,
the Apple TV) and its media platforms (iTunes and the App Store). Google has
also invested substantially in these new computing markets with Android on
thin devices (smartphones, tablets, smartbooks, set-top boxes, and connected
televisions) and Google’s growing suite of cloud services (e.g., Gmail, Maps,
YouTube, Android Market).

Looking at current trends, it appears that the diffusion of Android and ARM
may be accelerating past competitors. Recent NPD and Nielsen data indicate
that Android sales have now overtaken Apple’s iOS and Blackberry’s RIM in the
smartphone market. And analyst Paul Morland of KBC Peel Hunt estimates ARM’s
market share in microprocessors will increase from 29% to 40% from 2010-2014.
Meanwhile Android and ARM are on the cusp of rising in emerging device
markets, such as tablets and connected televisions.

If the last several decades of personal computing was dominated by the Wintel
standard, with AMD and Apple as the scrappy competitors. It appears the future
of computing may be dominated by Armdroid (or a slight variant based on the
Google Chrome OS), with Apple and several others as strong niche players. Of
course there will be other companies that will rise and sustain their position
as dominant players in other segments of computing, from enterprise cloud
services (e.g., Salesforce.com) to online video (e.g., Netflix), and online
retail (e.g., Amazon).

I just posted this to my blog and submitted the post to HN. If you enjoyed the
read, I'd appreciate an upvote (the article title is "Armdroid"). Thanks!

~~~
stakent
It is paradigm shift.

Dominant model for mass use of computing was Wintel based desktop/laptop
connected by the wire to the net.

It is changing now. There is a choice. Deskotop/laptop still exists. But
affordable access to WiFi and GSM (CDMA in the US) net connectivity makes use
of more mobile devices attractive. These devices are available in many factors
and great price range.

The future is not so nice for developers and software firms. There was one
target platform. Not any more.

But on the other hand there are completely new classes of needs which can be
fulfilled by software. So we have new niches.

------
stakent
Android phones, tablets, netbooks.

Great choice of prices and features.

Multiple hardware vendors.

Open and friendly development ecosystem.

Open market without one gatekeeper.

Sales numbers accelerating month by month.

It looks like the game is over. The winner is Android.

