
Letter From Human Rights Leaders Asking President Obama To Pardon Edward Snowden - dsr12
https://pardonsnowden.org/news/delivery-letter
======
benevol
Obama is clearly pro-mass-surveillance [0] and certainly has been all the
time.

So there is no way he will pardon Snowden (even if it's The Right Thing to
do).

[0] _Barely a week before he leaves office, U.S. President Barack Obama’s
administration has authorized controversial new legislation that grants
America’s 16 intelligence organizations access to raw communications data from
the NSA’s surveillance efforts.

[...]

So information that was collected without a warrant—or indeed any involvement
by a court at all—for foreign intelligence purposes with little to no privacy
protections, can be accessed raw and unfiltered by domestic law enforcement
agencies to prosecute Americans with no involvement in threats to national
security. _

Source: [https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/13/the-nsa-can-now-share-
unfi...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/13/the-nsa-can-now-share-unfiltered-
surveillance-data-with-other-intelligence-agencies/)

~~~
mtgx
Definitely the worst of his "legacy". Although some could argue it's the fact
that he brought U.S. into 8 active wars, while bombing Iraq, the war the U.S.
supposedly "won", as much as ever.

~~~
skinnymuch
What are the 8 active wars? Genuinely curious. That seems like a lot.

~~~
kr7
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Philippines, Somalia, Syria, Yemen

Source:
[http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/sep/25/...](http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/sep/25/ryan-
lizza/lizza-says-obama-has-bombed-more-nations-bush/)

~~~
skinnymuch
Thanks

------
JumpCrisscross
These petitions are silly. If you want to do something, commit to annoying
your representatives. Every few months write or call in and remind them that
you care about net neutrality, encryption and Edward Snowden as a symbol.
Before elections ask them if they share your views on these issues. Write a
letter to the editor or op ed in your local, hometown paper.

Political change takes work. If you can't be bothered more than than clicking
a button online, you're sending a message to our elected representatives on
how you prioritise issues.

~~~
benevol
> These petitions are silly.

Yes, because they probably don't result in the desired decisions.

No, because they send a signal, letting everybody know "no, you're not the
only one thinking things need to change urgently now".

If we feel alone, we tend to not take any action. If we are part of a group,
we feel empowered and take action, sooner or later.

This is what such petitions may achieve.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Petitions don't encourage organisation nor repetition, the two elements of
successful political mobilisation. They're one offs by disjointed individuals
of dubious commitment.

Worse, they promote complacency. ("I sure showed them by signing that
petition!") Getting rid of disgruntled constituents by having them press an
Internet button is a politician's dream.

Petitions--particularly written ones--brought forth by an organised body, or
used to organise one, can be powerful. Internet petitions aren't those.

~~~
caseysoftware
Slacktivism at its finest.

And then the Administration picks and chooses what they respond to. They'll
ignore this one but since they responded to the Death Star one, they must be
cool!

------
lettergram
I discussed this with a few friends. And it's really best if nothing is done
with Snowden from the governments perspective.

If they pardon him, they say it's alright to release national secrets based on
"feelings" (even if it's morally correct to do so, they can't have that). If
they try to get him to the US for a public trial, who knows what will happen.
If they bring him home for a secret trial, the risk rioting or a martyr.
Similarly, if they kill him with a direct assassination he will be a martyr,
and they'll be dramatically ruining their image. Finally, if they kill him in
a covert way, no one will believe it and in all likelihood it will be widely
believed it is the governments doing.

By leaving him in this limbo, the government can claim what ever they want
about him without proving it. At the same time, Snowden has no more info to
disclose, although he has a solid and growing cult following.

For the record, I signed this as soon as I heard about it and shared it with
everyone I knew. I think it's important to be counted and try to share and
convince others if your beliefs, if you believe it'll dramatically impact your
future.

What Snowden did and what he stands for is the last chance to have any form of
democracy or privacy. Unfortunately, it appears to have failed, but that
doesn't mean you stop trying to improve things. Perhaps, the younger
generation (millennials and below) will recognize what he did, as opposed to
what the government is trying to spin.

~~~
argonaut
This may be hard to believe on Hacker News, and you and I might think it's
wrong, but most Americans do not like Snowden. They've done opinion polls and
more than 60% of Americans have a negative opinion of Snowden. Very very few
think he's a hero.

Politicians want him home for a public trial. But if there's a secret trial or
he's assassinated, there will be outrage in certain circles
(ACLU/journalists), but he won't be a huge martyr.

[http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-
snowde...](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowden-
unpopular-at-home-a-hero-abroad-poll-finds)

[http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-
po...](http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-poll-hero-
russia/2016/09/23/id/749866/)

~~~
lettergram
You only need a small minority to believe something. If they believe it loud
enough they will create a ruckus.

Then the government will have to actually prove all the character
assassination attempts. Even though there is no evidence they really have
against him at this point. I mean, in terms of being a Russian spy, or an
alcoholic or something.

Also, remember these are the same pollsters who had Hillary winning the
election...

~~~
argonaut
No, they don't have to prove any of the character assasination attempts. They
just have to prove Snowden committed a crime, which even Snowden has admitted
to.

------
netsec_burn
There seem to be a lot of comments here saying that if Snowden is pardoned, it
will set a precedent that it's okay to leak government secrets. This is
actually a straw man because that's not addressing what Snowden did. Snowden
tried to responsibility report the issues and he hit a wall. He realized that
the option to handle it internally didn't exist, so he did not have any other
choice. Pardoning Snowden is perfectly acceptable since reform is and was
needed in those areas.

~~~
irishcoffee
> Snowden tried to responsibility report the issues and he hit a wall. He
> realized that the option to handle it internally didn't exist, so he did not
> have any other choice.

I uh... no that is just not even a little bit true.

~~~
jeffbush
Vice published emails via FOIA that suggest he had made concerns known before
leaking: [https://news.vice.com/story/exclusive-snowden-tried-to-
tell-...](https://news.vice.com/story/exclusive-snowden-tried-to-tell-nsa-
about-his-concerns) This suggests it is at least a little bit true

~~~
notahacker
It might well be true, but the details of the VICE story (one email from
Snowden asking a question about whether a training programme was correct in
asserting that executive orders were equivalent to acts of congress, and a
belatedly acknowledged meeting with a compliance trainer which the compliance
trainer says consisted of Snowden complaining about "trick questions" ) don't
really back up the clickbaity headline...

(my clickbaity headline would be "NSA appears to lack competence at searching
_its own_ email")

~~~
jeffbush
Yeah, the title (and contents) of the story are total clickbait, but they did
helpfully attach the full contents of the FOIA dump. As you point out, there
is ambiguity (which is why I used a lot of qualifiers :), but seeing the
internal communications around the issue is interesting.

------
throw2016
Obama is a massive disappointment. His clearly pro surveillance actions,
support for the Syria war and needless belligerance towards Russia are a
complete mystery coming from a democrat and given his public posturing as a
'reasonable person'.

Everytime you intervene and rock a boat there are severe consequences for tens
of millions of people. It cannot be the kind of casual action we have been
taking for decades. Basic human stuff. When it comes to refugees the 'empathy'
dissipates quickly and we cannot even absorb hundreds. If these kind of
actions was about sincerely caring about other people why would this be?

Given the kind of aggressive civic activism seen for Jan 20 one would conclude
people just don't care about surveillance enough or we would see similar
levels of activism. But it's also interesting to consider the levels of
propaganda at play and the need to 'organize' and fund certain actions. There
are enough special interests to do the former but not enough for the latter.
For a average citizen even before you start organizing you will end up on
dozens of lists and the security state will make your life difficult.

------
Jugurtha
Here's my previous comment on an Ask HN wondering why the U.S. didn't get
Snowden:

> _They could if they wanted to. Do they want to? If they get him to the U.S.,
> they 'd have to deal with him. I don't think they want to get him because
> it'd dramatically limit their options and possibly set a precedent with far-
> reaching consequences (is he a traitor? is he a hero? what does it mean to
> be either? is the public ready? how well would a pardon be received? if they
> pardon him, who else would they have to pardon? what does it mean to leak
> sensitive information? what does that mean for cases of espionage?) Why
> address the elephant in the room when you shouldn't have brought an elephant
> in the room in the first place? Just let the elephant where he is. _

There are examples of lenient sentencing, though. Former U.S. Chief of Staff
to the Vice President, "Scooter" Libby, was not pardoned after he had blown
the cover of an intelligence officer (classified information) to a news
outlet. He was disbarred, but not forced to exile. He was reinstated a few
months ago, ten years after the events.

I think Snowden being in the spotlight cuts both ways: on the one hand he
stays relevant, people don't forget about him, and it'd be a complication if
anything were to happen to him..

On the other hand, it makes it much, much, harder to pardon him and to regain
his former life. (It would be easier if it were done discreetly, but
discretion is out of the question now.

Finally: this could also be one hell of an intelligence operation, placing
Snowden just right inside a country that is clearly on the rise and
representing a challenge for the U.S..

Heads: China. Tails: Russia. Of all the countries in the world. This would be
an operation for the books.

------
megous
Obama is the worst president for whistleblowers and leakers in american
history, by far, having prosecuted more of them for espionage than all
presidents before him combined. So this would be quite a surprise.

------
nsomaru
I know nothing about American law, but why has the constant plea been for a
pardon and not amnesty?

It seems like in the former case one would need to be convicted of something
before one could be pardoned. Snowden hasn't been convicted of anything yet...

Although there is the caveat that amnesty at federal level would not provide
immunity from prosecution by state courts, as far as I understand it.

IANAL.

~~~
farva
Ford pardoned Nixon without him being convicted. Amnesty is a pardon given to
a group of people, rather than an individual.

------
eugeneionesco
Never going to happen, Obama administration does not like people like Snowden
or Manning.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Yeah, never going to happen, he would never pardon Manning .... oh wait ...

------
chvid
The sad thruth is that Obama is more likely to issue a pardon for Hillary
Clinton than for Edward Snowden.

------
vidoc
Besides, I need to confess not being a big believer in clicktivism (just a
personal opinion) and I would love to hear alternative suggestions to support
Mr Snowden in a similarly lazy, albeit possibly a bit more useful way ->
financially.

Google took me here:
[https://edwardsnowden.com/donate/](https://edwardsnowden.com/donate/)

I'm sure helping his lawyers will help him indirectly but suggestions would be
appreciated!

------
gerardnll
WTF? The main image is 4.4MBytes?!! Who did that? It slows down Chrome making
the website lag until it is loaded...

------
formula1
Perhaps its just pessimism but there likely never be a pardon for Snowden.
Once and if Snowden is pardoned, the military has now made it "acceptable" to
comprimise secrets. Though Snowden is arguably in the moral right, if someone
does this sort of thing for poor/naive reasons and if the knowledge is more
sensitive (such as Hiraldo Rivera explaining exact locations and plans on a
broadcast) there may be a much bigger problem.

I think the closest Snowden will likely get is an honorable burial in US or
have a bill named after him. But I highly doubt either party will pardon him.

~~~
pvg
Snowden was not in the military and the secrets he lifted were from a civilian
organization.

~~~
thret
This is a very important distinction.

~~~
walshemj
Really? official secrets acts (or the equivelents) apply to every one - there
may be additional punishments for military and those who have signed the act.

~~~
pvg
He wasn't in the military, didn't take secrets from the military so if he were
pardoned, it can't possibly suggest the military considers such things
acceptable. The military doesn't come into it. The poster is maybe confusing
him with Chelsea Manning who was in the military and was tried and sentenced
by a military court.

~~~
walshemj
not sure what your getting at ? a secret is a secret doesn't mater if you work
for a civilian organisation or a military and arguably the CIA is a para
military organisation as it has its own shooters

------
dllthomas
Obama has decided he would rather lie about the pardon power than actually own
any decision around pardons - both around Snowden ("I can't pardon before
trial") and around DACA ("I can't pardon en masse"). There is clear precedent
for both, historic and recent. I can't imagine he's unaware of this, I don't
understand why he'd choose to lie so flagrantly, and as someone who has
supported him a bit more than not it really makes me wonder what else he's
been lying about.

------
prirun
I think Snowden would be a fool to come back to the US, under any
circumstances (and he's obviously no fool). Even if he is pardoned, they will
find some other charge to make his life hell to set an example for others. He
can never come back. I admire him for his convictions and thank him for his
sacrifice so that we would have the truth.

------
toyg
Whether or not he gets pardoned, the fact is that you now officially have an
American _exiled_ for reasons of conscience, something that only _non-
democratic regimes_ have.

~~~
pvg
He left voluntarily.

~~~
emilsedgh
His passport was invalidated involuntary.

~~~
pvg
He wasn't exiled. He left the country, was charged with a crime, chose not to
return. This is not how exile happens to people persecuted by authoritarian
regimes. They leave under duress.

~~~
sp332
It's also what happens to actual criminals, so it's not that useful as a
differentiator.

~~~
pvg
What state commonly exiles its own citizens that are actual criminals?

~~~
sp332
I don't know what you mean by expels. He ran before anyone knew that data was
missing.

~~~
pvg
I didn't say expels. You started talking about criminals, apropos of I don't
actually know what. Snowden wasn't 'exiled' from the US. His situation is not
analogous to that of people who are. That's all I'm saying.

------
Glyptodon
I think it's bizarre he's supposedly considering pardoning Manning but not
Snowden when only one of them was acting in a highly-contemplated civic-minded
way.

------
Vosporos
Even Snowden says to pardon Chelsea Manning… :/

------
AbrahamParangi
I'm reminded of this article (posted here a few months ago)

[https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-president-obama-wont-and-
sho...](https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-president-obama-wont-and-shouldnt-
pardon-snowden)

I found it to make a compelling case, if only because it offers less emotion
and more citations than I've seen elsewhere on this topic.

~~~
RodericDay
> if only because it offers less emotion and more citations

This is such a weird metric. "More citations" sounds like "more lines of
code", and the problem with an emotional plea is not that it is emotional but
that it often replaces logical ones.

> the smidgen of his revelations about possibly unlawful domestic surveillance
> or collection against U.S. persons

If you think that's an accurate characterization then you really didn't need
this article to push you over the edge.

~~~
pvg
In what ways do you feel this characterization is inaccurate?

~~~
RodericDay
smidgen, possibly, conflation of legality and morality

~~~
pvg
All of these are perfectly defensible - the info in question was a 'smidgen'
compared to the total amount of data taken, there is no universal agreement
about the constitutionality of the program. There's no mention of morality in
the bit you quoted. The author is a lawyer.

~~~
RodericDay
they may be defensible, but if you agree with them as stated, then you weren't
ever on the fence about Snowden.

in other words, the article preaches to a choir and articulates a position for
them. it doesn't aim to persuade an opposition.

------
burntrelish1273
Snowden, Assange, Manning, Schwartz (RIP) ... Maybe Peltier.

------
yadabadabada
I signed it. Proud to be counted publicly. The oath of office that President
Obama took demands that he pardon a whistleblower responsible for revealing
massive violations of the Constition

The very concept of "setting an example" by not pardoning him is evil. Every
case should be judged on its on merits and Snowden's case will be judged by
history quite favorably.

Obama should have pardoned him and appointed him the NSA's Director of
Compliance

Instead we have continued and increased violations of our rights as Americans.

Of course, the real problem is that Americans don't learn about principles,
history, or civic duty in any serious way.

Most Americans don't really care if the government violates their rights
because they don't really know what they are or why they're important. This
can change quickly though, thanks to technology. I think the tide will turn
soon.

~~~
Philipp__
Obama's administration was "setting an example" a bit too much, don't you
think?! They got blood of many people on their hands. ( Like Aaron Swartz':( )

~~~
kahrkunne
Swartz killed himself though. Unpopular opinion, but people need to stop
acting like anybody but Swartz himself was responsible for his death. He
wasn't even mistreated that bad, and he _did_ knowingly break the law

~~~
jpalomaki
If this report[1] of him being threatened with 50 years of jail in correct, I
would say he was treated quite badly.

[1] [https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-
go...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-government-
ups-felony-count-jstoraaron-swartz-case-four-to-thirteen.shtml)

~~~
ryanlol
>Depending on how many of the counts Swartz is found guilty of, the sentence
could conceivably total 50+ years and fine in the area of $4 million.

The author is American so it's somewhat depressing he misunderstands the legal
process so badly.

There is no conceivable scenario where Swartz could have been sentenced to 50
years in prison. Swartz's legal situation wasn't particularly grim and his
lawyers would most certainly have informed him of this fact.

[http://volokh.com/2013/01/16/the-criminal-charges-against-
aa...](http://volokh.com/2013/01/16/the-criminal-charges-against-aaron-swartz-
part-2-prosecutorial-discretion/)

------
lkajsd
Obama isn't going to pardon Snowden, of course he isn't. Maybe Putin will
though.

~~~
sneak
I firmly believe he already has—does anyone believe that he would be alive
today if not for the meticulous and persistent efforts of the FSB?

It's a strange sensation indeed, rooting for the success of the "other guys".

------
fredgrott
Seems somewhat naive in that you can only pardon those who have been
convicted. More of a statement of how the common US American public
understands how the US government works.

~~~
sparky_z
Not remotely true.
[http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/07/preemptive_presidential_pardons.html)

------
jgalt212
At first I was anti-Snowdon, (he's a traitor and deserter). Then I was pro-
Snowdon (so much stuff he's opened our eyes to). And now once again, I am
anti-Snowdon (there's just too much circumstantial evidence that he's
assisting the Russians/Putin).

~~~
contras1970
do you have any links?

~~~
jgalt212
this took about 30 seconds:

[http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/edward-snowden-
russian...](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/edward-snowden-russian-
agents-house-report-232917)

[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/22/edward-
snowd...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/22/edward-snowden-
russia-spy-agency-contact-us-house-report)

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-
checker/wp/2014/01/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-
checker/wp/2014/01/22/is-snowden-working-for-the-russians/)

~~~
glitchdout
NSA trying to poison the well. Meh, keep trying, shill

[https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-
manipulation/](https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/)

