
How I ended up with so much Hacker News karma (2012) - creolabs
http://blog.jgc.org/2012/12/how-i-ended-up-with-so-much-hacker-news.html
======
jgrahamc
_Some headline numbers: I 've been on Hacker News for well over 5 years (I
joined on July 2, 2007)_

Ha! when I wrote that it was 5 years... now it's > 8 years. I think the same
conclusion still applies: _" So, to answer my original question about how I
ended up with that much karma: slowly, consistently, over years by submitting
things that people like."_

~~~
jacquesm
HN Karma functions much like the odometer on a car.

Use the car more frequently and for longer distances and the odometer will
advance more rapidly.

~~~
KineticLensman
Someone downstream said "A good trick is to post a solid counterpoint as a
reply to the currently topmost comment: people are more likely to vote on
comments near the top"

So I'm looking for a counterpoint except that this is actually quite a good
analogy (ignoring the quibble that a good driver can move to a new car with a
fresh odometer but retain a good driving record. Or that there is no legal
odometer equivalent to being downvoted)

Edit: grammar

~~~
ksherlock
Counterpoint: The Cuckoo's Calling, by Robert Galbraith, sold 500 copies. The
Cuckoo's Calling, by JK Rowling, sold a 100,000+ copies.

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edw519
A few observations from someone in the "Top 10" for 8 years now:

    
    
      - You're never as good as your upvotes.
      - You're never as bad as your downvotes.
      - Karma ebbs & flows with the audience, which changes dramatically.
      - I sense no correlation between karma & quality of real life.
      - I sense little correlation between karma & quality of contribution.
      - I sense heavy correlation between karma & volume of participation.
      - I sense very heavy inverse correlation between karma & real work completed.
    

(Back to work)

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forgotmypassw
This could be simply answered with a single answer that applies to any
community - just post whatever panders to the average community member if you
care about irrelevant counter in your profile.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I love that irrelevant counter in my profile. Especially when it goes down.
It's a signal that I should stop and rethink what I wrote - is it getting
downvoted because of tone? Because I'm stupid? Or because I'm right but
present an unpopular opinion?

Usually it's the second.

~~~
marklgr
> Or because I'm right but present an unpopular opinion?

Some opinions are neither right nor wrong, they are just point of views, and
the unpopular ones tend to get downvoted--admittedly, to a lesser extent on HN
than other communities, but still happens. This has the unfortunate effect
that, as you point out, the downvoted author doesn't know if there was
something wrong with the tone or content, or if it just happened that his/her
views are unpopular.

Maybe asking for a few words (presumably in a small, unintrusive ajax form,
and not visible in the main thread) as reason for downvoting could be useful,
and somewhat deter "not-my-opinion-at-all" downvotes.

~~~
pjc50
Like the old slashdot "+1 interesting"?

There are nonconfrontational ways of presenting views you know are going to
encounter flak. One is to do so as a question.

~~~
dragonwriter
> There are nonconfrontational ways of presenting views you know are going to
> encounter flak.

True, but...

> One is to do so as a question.

...this can often come off as passive-aggressive when it is used to present a
view; that's not really an improvement. If you are stating a view, just state
it: to make it nonconfrontational, don't be condescending to people who
disagree, don't predict that you will be downvoted into oblivion or otherwise
persecuted for posting it, and generally extend the same charity to the
community that you would like them to extend to your viewpoint.

~~~
cpncrunch
>...this can often come off as passive-aggressive when it is used to present a
view; that's not really an improvement. If you are stating a view, just state
it: to make it nonconfrontational, don't be condescending to people who
disagree, don't predict that you will be downvoted into oblivion or otherwise
persecuted for posting it, and generally extend the same charity to the
community that you would like them to extend to your viewpoint.

Unfortunately this doesn't work. You still tend to get downvoted into
oblivion. The problem is that if you poke holes in a dubious argument, you'll
get downvoted simply because people disagree with you. There is no real way
around this, and I've mostly given up on commenting except when I know I won't
be downvoted. I don't really give a shit about karma, it's more the idea of
rudeness/negativity behind people downvoting things that they disagree with --
even if you post a logical, well thought-out argument -- that I have a problem
with.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Unfortunately this doesn't work. You still tend to get downvoted into
> oblivion.

No, it does work; if it didn't, I wouldn't have more than 20K Karma, often
with highly upvoted posts disagreeing with posts that are also upvoted (or at
least not downvoted), including from people who are higher on the leaderboard.

The idea that you get downvoted to oblivion simply for disagreeing with the
majority regardless of quality on HN (whether it comes from people who
describe the majority as politically right-libertarian or leftist, or pro-FSF,
or those who describe it as pro-Apple, pro-Microsoft, pro-Google, or anti- any
of those things -- and I've seen it from every possible side of all of those,
except I don't think I've seen anyone accuse HN of having an anti-HN downvote-
to-oblivion majority) is simply wrong.

Depending on basically random factors (who is reading when) posts on
controversial topics that make substantial points well may occasionally get
early downvotes for disagreement, but usually that gets overwhelmed, or at
least neutralized, by positive votes very quickly.

~~~
cpncrunch
It's pretty consistent. See for example my recent comment on a Parkinson's
treatment where I said "there's fuck all evidence that it works", mentioning
the placebo effect and overhyped science, which has -2. Perhaps people are
offended by the swear word (which I thought was appropriate in the
circumstances)? Perhaps I need to write a whole spiel explaining the placebo
effect so I don't get instantly downvoted (I don't really have the time for
that)?

This happens every time, and it's a little irritating.

I had a quick look at your comments and didn't see any comments such as this.

("downvoted into oblivion" is perhaps an exaggeration. I'm talking about -2 or
-3 votes for a comment).

~~~
kazinator
The -2 means that a couple of people (out of an unknown number) didn't like
something. For example, some people don't agree with you and think that it's
never appropriate to use foul language.

Most of the time you get downvotes on something, the number of downvotes is
small. Only the cases where something is massively downvoted and flagged out
of existence can be readily explained.

Suppose 5000 people look at your posting and almost all of them agree that
sometimes it is appropriate to swear, and your posting is one of those
occasions: but two out of those 5000 don't agree, and downvote you. Well,
there you go: you have the _tacit_ support of 4998/5000 readers (just not
enough to give you an upvote for it) and two downvotes.

Being acceptable to the majority in some "common sense" way is not enough to
spare your comment. Either your comment has to have appeal so that it attracts
upvotes from a significant segment of the site readers who come across it, or,
failing that, a comment which doesn't attract upvotes, has to avoid raising
the ire of minorities.

(Regarding the use "minorities": I'm using that here to denote absolutely any
rare trait, background or world outlook whatsoever (where "rare" doesn't mean
"odd" or "strange"); I am not specifically referring to "ethnic minorities".)

For the above reasons, situations where a comment is reduced to 0, -1 or even
-2 are not always easily explained, other than by the general remark that it
is probably less than "spotlessly inoffensive". (Imagine the ways in which
some element in the comment might rub someone somewhere the wrong way, and you
have a halfway plausible explanation.)

Only when some comment is massively flagged out of existence is there an
_obvious_ plausible explanation.

------
kelvin0
>>" It's content that's king. That's good news for Hacker News because it
indicates that what matters there is content and not game playing". <<

If that were the case I should have much more Karma. The fact is many times I
posted a submission, only to see it slip off the headline in 0.2ms. Then a few
days later, someone else (with more Karma) posts the same thing and it stays
on for 2 days ... I'm not complaining, simply stating that it is not as cut
and dry as the author mentions.

~~~
doki_pen
In theory, that shouldn't happen. HN should detect duplicates and just add an
upvote to the existing submission when it is resubmitted.

~~~
pjc50
In practice, it happens quite a lot. The duplicate detector is easily fooled,
and often the same underlying "story" is reported in a bunch of places.

Getting traction on an HN submission is very random. Unless it's about
discrimination in tech work, at which point it will be flagged off the front
page almost immediately.

~~~
adenadel
Also, duplicates are only detected for (I think) 8 hours. After that you can
resubmit.

------
pjc50
I keep meaning to reverse-engineer my own submission stats to find out where
this nearly 9k karma comes from. A good trick is to post a solid counterpoint
as a reply to the currently topmost comment: people are more likely to vote on
comments near the top.

~~~
gonzo41
I don't agree, I find the most informative posts are usually mid way down its
where the meat of the comment section really is.

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gingerlime
Those blog posts about HN trends and stats remind me a bit of stuff about SEO.
Lots of tricks and hacks, but essentially it boils down to relevant content.

So yeah, you can probably gain a bit of an edge by posting at a certain time
of day, or using specific keyword etc. but nothing beats an interesting post
or a great comment.

~~~
seivan
Outside of engineering responses I've noticed "progressive" (regressive left)
comments never get down voted.

Basically take anything Randy Marsh would say from latest season of South Park
and you'll get up voted. No matter how ridiculous it sounds. Do the same with
Cartman and something about minorities and you'll be (rightly so) down voted.
There is no balance.

I'm slightly facetious ;)

~~~
JupiterMoon
I downvoted you. Because I often get downvoted for left leaning posts...

~~~
seivan
There is nothing pro working class about the shit portrayed in South Park.

~~~
JupiterMoon
And now I upvoted this comment just because. I guess my point is that voting
on HN seems largely random to me.

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ducuboy
Means that the karma system is good.

Anyone can point out what are the features that can be unlocked with more
karma? I'd like to know what I'm missing.

~~~
DanBC
You need a small amount of karma to get the flag button.

You need a bit more karma to be able to change the colour of the top bar.

You need a bit more karma to get the downvote button.

I'm not sure whether your average comment karma is used to place your comment
on a page.

~~~
jaynos
I worked really hard to get that downvote arrow, but then stopped caring much
about karma and probably haven't actually downvoted anything (just like that
the option is there). Now I'm off to change my banner color.

~~~
ducuboy
That's what I was thinking, is karma really worth the time and effort?

I understand how it helps the forum work well, but for the user doesn't seem
much more than a vanity feature. Being able to flag/downvote is something I
really don't care about.

~~~
dragonwriter
> That's what I was thinking, is karma really worth the time and effort?

Score on particular posts is a signal rather than a reward, IMO, and, no, if
you are expending effort _specifically_ in order to boost your karma score,
its probably not worth it.

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EA
Karma should be worth more in the past since there were fewer voters and fewer
submissions.

~~~
sspiff
If "Internet points" like karma motivates people, inflation like this is
actually useful to keep people in the community active.

~~~
EA
It is also useful in searching for the most popular posts on HN.

A post years ago on HN getting 150 to 200 points may have been the most
popular (perhaps most significant) post for a while. We get posts like that
daily now.

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cryoshon
I sometimes wonder if there are people here (as on reddit) that try to game
the system to get upvotes... seems ridiculous as there's no functional purpose
of accumulating upvotes here.

I assume that a lot of the top posters spend a large volume of time submitting
and commentating on HN-- myself included.

------
pinkunicorn
You're going to end up with a few more with this post

~~~
TeMPOraL
It wasn't him that submitted it.

------
DiabloD3
According to the current leaderboard:

11\. jgrahamc 55788

In comparison:

100\. DiabloD3 18551

:<

~~~
TeMPOraL
You're working too much at your job, and not procrastinating enough. Keep on
pushing!

