

Newegg Still Telling Customers That Installing New OS Violates Return Policy - mayneack
http://consumerist.com/2012/06/so-does-installing-a-new-os-violate-newegg-return-policy-or-not.html

======
jere
>Dogboy99: Was this a special one-time exception because Newegg was getting
bad press?

>Newegg: [Yes]

Hilarious. Is the left hand not talking to the right or what?

From the consumerist's first followup:

>Thanks, Newegg, and let's hope that no one has to get out the Internet
pitchforks and torches to get your employees to follow their own policies from
here out.

~~~
mayneack
Although it's not the most efficient way to go about getting things done, the
internet pitchforks appear to be fairly effective when it comes to business.
Next on the agenda is politics.

------
maratd
I'm sorry, but what exactly do you think happens when you return something to
a retailer? They wave a magic wand and everything is peachy?

Like most retailers, NewEgg has to resell the unit. Just because _you_ think
there's something wrong with it, doesn't mean there _is_ something wrong with
it. I ran my own consumer electronics retail business for 5 years and about
70% of returns have absolutely nothing wrong with them. NewEgg can't just
throw the stuff away, they'd go out of business.

They also can't just send the stuff to the manufacturer. The manufacturer
doesn't care about your issues and if you return stock of which 70% is
functional for warranty service, they will kick your ass.

So you hire guys to test the equipment and return it to sell-able condition
and sell it as an open-box return.

Back to our little problem. You bought a laptop. Great! You install Linux on
it. Fine! Is it really that much trouble to return it to the same condition
when you send it back?

NewEgg has to hire guys who sit there for hours installing Windows from the
non-existent install disks (they don't include those anymore ... you gotta
download them) so that they can recoup their losses? It would cost them more
than the laptop is worth.

If the laptop is truly defective, and you can't install the original operating
system as a consequence, NewEgg has no quick means of determining what you did
with the system ... and the manufacturer won't care either.

So if you buy a laptop and decide to return it, return it to factory
condition. It's the least you can do. Yes, tinkering with it probably violated
some terms or some warranty. Do everybody a favor and keep it to yourself.

~~~
debacle
This is the most inane thing I have ever heard.

If you buy a laptop, you're not returning it because there's something wrong
with the software. You're returning it because there's something wrong with
the hardware.

If you bought a phone with a defective battery, would you delete all of your
contacts out of it and image the OS before you returned it?

If you're asking consumers to do something to preserve your margins, go fuck
yourself.

~~~
ajasmin
> If you buy a laptop, you're not returning it because there's something wrong
> with the software.

Sometimes it's not easy to tell if you're having a software or hardware
problems. Especially for your average customer.

If my mom gets a "No Operating System" message on boot she won't spend time
trying to figure out if the disk died or something overwrote the boot sector.

~~~
debacle
Does your mom install linux on her laptop?

------
rmc
Slightly misleading, the reply from Newegg says:

 _"Please be kindly advised that if the item system has been changed or
modified, we are unable to honor you a return and you will need to contact the
manufacturer for further assistance."_

It's hard to know if "the item system" refers to the OS or hardware…

~~~
EthanHeilman
Newegg has gone on record and specifically stated that it only applies to the
hardware.

~~~
Ralith
Then why did they make a reply like that to a question explicitly asking about
software?

------
sequoia
"Your display is broken? Oh, you installed cygwin? Sorry, you're on your own:
we don't support cygwin"

Mostly joking but how far fetched is it to speculate such a thing, given that
they are denying display service due to OS install? bittorrent clients can be
quite hard on HDDs, I've heard, furthermore illegal torrents are purportedly
full of malware which could "damage your computer"; can they reject a
defective HDD claim if you have uTorrent installed?

~~~
smackfu
Heh, wasn't THAT long ago that setting up your CRT monitor for Linux involved
a lot of scary stuff about using invalid frequencies that could cause damage.

~~~
dexen
Only relevant on _exceptionally_ old and broken hardware. Any decent CRT or
LCD provides <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDID> which lists both standard and
non-standard modelines and frequency range. X.org takes that into account,
unless you override it by hand. Also, the display will shut itself down if
driven over threshold.

On the other hand, any software will happily let bad hardware kill itself, if
not customized for particular hardware kink. I had a Linux apparently kill a
2.5'' HDD. Turns out OEM configured the drive to unload heads very often,
probably to produce impressive power savings -_-'

After about one or two years constantly power-on, the drive accumulated its
rated number (~500'000) of unloads and died.

------
kenrikm
So Amazon it is then! Bye bye NewEgg.. The relationship was nice while it
lasted.

~~~
alan_cx
Yeah, my attitude too.

You know, in "dumb punter" mode, I don't care what the small print says and
what the fine arguments are. As a punter, if my machine brakes, I want it
replaced or fixed, not a legal mumbo jumbo debate. When I buy a PC, I don't
want to need a lawyer with me. Basically, it's too much thinking and grief for
something so, so simple. Whatever the savings might be, it's simply not worth
it.

------
lnanek2
Normally I'd say it's difficult for the retailer to support enthusiast needs
like this. It can just be too costly. For example, maybe their return
inspection policy is to run some Windows test software or something and it
would have to be rewritten to multi-platform, or all their inspectors would
have to spend time learning how to and reinstalling Windows, etc..

Push them too hard and they will run away from Linux crying due to the higher
costs for few sales, like some sellers of hardware with Linux out of the box
have done, or competitors not footing the bill will beat them out. It is a
very low margin business where just having the automatic conveyor belts to put
bins near where the parts have to be picked off the shelves helps immensely.

Newegg sells a ton of components to enthusiasts and small time computer shops
upgrading and building their machines part by part, however. I think they'd be
better off with a more lax policy regarding OS installs considering their
customer base.

~~~
schiffern
>For example, maybe their return inspection policy is to run some Windows test
software or something

Why would anyone run that on the _user's OS_?? If the point is to test the
_hardware_ , wouldn't it make more sense to have a custom USB stick OS that
automatically runs the appropriate diagnostics after booting?

What's easier: 1) plug in USB stick, power on machine, move on, or 2) power on
machine, wait for OS to load, plug in USB stick, install diagnostic software,
start diagnostics, which may or may not reflect actual hardware problems since
you don't have a known-good OS under you?

RMAs typically don't troubleshoot software. Even Apple's hardware return
people will only offer to wipe your drive and reinstall (you _did_ back up
before sending it in, didn't you?)

~~~
excuse-me
But if the returned machine is running some weird Linux OS - how are our bored
techs supposed to look through your photos folders for any porn ?

\- ps we really do not want to see nude photos of the average FOSS developer.

\- pps No I don't work for Microsoft, but I've been involved in FOSS since
before Linux AND there are very few of us that anyone wants to see naked.

------
URSpider94
The real issue for NewEgg is probably whether you've blown away the Windows
restore partition. Without that, it's probably going to get rejected by their
reverse logistics vendor.

This shouldn't be the customers problem, but for them it would be as if a
hotel guest took all the sheets off the bed every morning and soaked them in
the bathtub - enough people do that, you're going to have to hire extra maids.

~~~
lukeschlather
Have you ever re-imaged a machine? It's easier than operating an industrial
washing machine. (No pesky health codes to worry about.)

But they should be re-imaging everything as a rule, regardless. Otherwise you
could use their returns system to distribute trojans.

------
davidf18
The original laptop in question was a Thinkpad. Thinkpads have restore disks.
I always install my own OS and then use the restore disks to restore the
system to its original purchased condition by using the restore disks. I think
most brands work this way.

With my Mac Air I have a Bootcamp dual boot with both OSX and Windows 7. One
can restore Macs also to their original software installed status.

~~~
ihsw
Although restore disks are great it might be prudent to buy an additional disk
drive and store the stock one away until time comes for RMA or otherwise.

This way the condition of the laptop cannot be so easily disputed.

------
antidoh
Linux voids your warranty.

Huh.

In a way I can see their point. You bought hardware, plus a licensed copy of
Windows. You returned it without Windows.

But really, what does it cost to just re-image the disk? They don't really
just resell RMAs without going over them, do they?

------
papsosouid
And just yesterday the story here had tons of people insisting that this was
no big deal, just a one time mistake, and that they should shut up and be
happy. This is exactly why I didn't consider their initial reaction to be an
acceptable resolution. They need to make it 100% clear that you can install
whatever OS you want, and they need to make it 100% clear that they are going
to train their staff to know their own policies.

~~~
powertower
1\. The original post had a couple of people who experienced Linux drivers
throwing the thermal control systems of the laptop in a loop, and damaging it.

2\. Was there anything wrong with the laptop (70% of returns work perfectly)?
If not, and it is returned in a non-original condition, why the hell would
Newegg (who's margins are 1%) accept it and take a loss on it.

Again, Newegg makes 1 dollar for every $100 sold, this is the lowest margin in
the industry, and is why their prices are cheap...

They simply can't cover people burning out their laptops with bad drivers, or
accept working laptops with a missing OS, that might or might not have been
partially damaged.

They also can't cover people buying a laptop simply to see if Linux runs on
it, knowing they can just ship it back. They probably don't want that type of
business.

~~~
papsosouid
1\. If the laptop was damaged because of the user's actions, then that should
be their reason for rejecting the RMA. Not "you installed an operating
system".

2\. If there was nothing wrong with the laptop, then that should be their
reason for rejecting the RMA. Not "you installed an operating system".

I don't understand why there is such an obsession with their margins. How does
that matter to me as a consumer in any way? I am purchasing a product. I
expect to be able to return it if it is defective. Period. I do not care why
they lie and refuse to accept a return on defective product. I do not care how
much or how little money they make. I care that they are an honest business I
can trust. If you value doing business with companies based on how little
money they make, you are welcome to choose to do business with companies by
that criteria. Those of us with different criteria do not become objectively
incorrect for using those other criteria for making our decisions.

~~~
powertower
1\. There is no telling how much (or little) of the situation and the
discussion the original customer made available to the public and the
consumerist.

2\. Maybe Newegg sent her a canned response, and sometimes you learn that it's
best to keep things general and not to enter into the specifics, because once
you do, people start taking advantage of the situation.

My point is there are plenty of reasons why they can't, and shouldn't, accept
working laptops in non-original condition back. Nor heat damaged ones with a
non-original OS.

> I don't understand why there is such an obsession with their margins. How
> does that matter to me as a consumer in any way?

Because they already provided you with the lowest price, fast shipping, and a
general return policy that works for 99% of the customers.

> I am purchasing a product. I expect to be able to return it if it is
> defective. Period.

Agreed. Except we don't really know much of anything about this particular
case, other than what two biased parties have told us.

Though we do know that 1) the laptop boots up and probably works (70% of
returns are 100% working) 2) it's being returned in a non-original state, and
3) even if the warrantee or return-policy was voided by the customer she still
might be able to do the Manufacturers' Warranty.

~~~
papsosouid
Your "point" isn't actually a point if it is unrelated to the discussion. The
issue is one of rejecting legit RMAs on the grounds that "you installed an
operating system". Again, you are welcome to shop where you like. Just stop
telling those of us who have told newegg "that's not acceptable and I won't be
doing business with you" that we're doing something wrong.

~~~
kbolino
There's a difference between boycotting the retailer and demanding that they
accept a return.

Also, from their perspective, they sold you "a computer with Windows
installed" and expect to receive the same in return, unless the reason for
your return is the lack of said Windows.

~~~
papsosouid
Except that they already said "no, installing an OS doesn't void your
warranty, that was just a mistake". But the people actually processing RMAs
are clearly not aware of this. That's the problem. I can not trust the company
to process an RMA, because they have demonstrated that they do not train their
staff to do that job competently.

~~~
powertower
Warranty, Return Policy and One-Time-Exception are three different things.

Since the previous laptop had issues, and a shit-storm was kicked off, they
said it was their mistake and that they will accept the return, even though it
was being returned in a non-original state (one-time-exception).

This laptop apparently has no issues that they can detect, and was returned in
a non-original state. Hence the RMA is not valid.

------
xxiao
While I love Linux and use it for both work and home. I'm for Newegg. A policy
is a policy and not all customers are skillful enough to reload a different
OS. I don't think any Linux vendors(Dell, System76,etc) will happily accept
returns after you installed Windows on it. The best could be that we can buy
machines with Linux pre-loaded, or certain distro certified. For instance, we
choose a PC/laptop, and it's certified with Windows7 and Ubuntu 12.04 both,
then you're safe to choose either, otherwise you're on your own. Not to
mention Newegg is just a market place instead of the vendor.

~~~
RossDM
I see what you're saying, but how far do we take this? If I upgrade to
Mountain Lion in July, am I no longer covered? Dual-boot to Windows? Seems
ripe for abusing.

~~~
zschallz
To be fair, the return policy only lasts for about 14-30 days; then the
manufacturer will have to service it.

~~~
rmc
Depends on local laws. In some places (EU) the retailer is on the hook for 2
years.

