
Ask HN: Co-founder mom died, and his depression is effecting the business - icevalley
Hi guys,<p>We&#x27;re a team of 3. One of the guys lost their mom earlier this year, and bouts of grief and depression have taken hold of him.<p>His productivity and work quality has nosedived. He&#x27;s uncooperative, non-communicative, and is often absent.<p>I&#x27;ve tried to understand what he&#x27;s going through, and I&#x27;ve talked about it with him. I&#x27;ve suggested he take some time off (which he doesn&#x27;t want to do).<p>He&#x27;s adamant he wants to continue, and he&#x27;s seeking help from a counselor.<p>This has been going on for ~4 months, and it&#x27;s really taken a toll on our business. The 3rd co-founder and I find it demotivating and frustrating when he disappears.<p>I feel as if the best thing for the business is to let go of him, but it&#x27;s a shitty thing to do. Moreover – I feel as if his depression would worsen if he lost his place in the team.<p>I&#x27;m not an experienced manager.<p>Is there anybody on here who has successfully dealt with depressed employees&#x2F;co-founders?<p>Edit: spelling
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kafkaesq
_Is there anybody on here who has successfully dealt with depressed employees
/co-founders?_

Yes, I know of one well-known company which gave one of its core team members
an unlimited leave of absence (with a believable promise that they'd be
welcome to come back any time in the next 2 years). The key aspect here is
that this was a small-ish, (then) family-run company -- and in many ways, the
team was like family, too. Also, this was well before the current hyper-
accelerated "My startup's growth plan über alles" ethos that we have today --
so even aside from the family-run aspect, people at least did generally have
some perspective on the human side of things (unlike today).

 _I feel as if the best thing for the business is to let go of him, but it 's
a shitty thing to do._

Absolutely. Definitely don't just fire the guy. (Aside from being a shitty
thing to do -- I'm assuming it's abundantly clear already that there's a
significant chance that could backfire in ways that could hurt the company far
beyond the current loss of productivity).

But (absent an actual, forced leave of absence) it may be a good idea to ply
him with a _significant_ amount of paid leave (4+ months), with a suggestion
that he put aside any idea of working full-time for quite a bit longer than
that -- plus a statement that he's not only welcome, but very strongly
encouraged to re-apply at any time after 6 (given that it's basically too
complicated legally to outright promise someone a position will be available
for them in the future, given the way business conditions usually go -- which
I'm sure he can understand, in his current condition).

Things happen in life, and sometimes you just have to do the right thing.

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asimjalis
"The 3rd co-founder and I find it demotivating and frustrating when he
disappears."

This seems like a bigger issue to me than the one in your subject.

His disappearance should not affect the validity of your vision and the
validity of the opportunity.

If his disappearance is demotivating this is a sign that your motivation needs
work.

If you fire him something else will replace him as the conditional hook that
will trigger the demotivation.

You can fire him or keep him. But your reason should not be that his presence
is demotivating.

Or rather if this is your reason you will find yourself demotivated anyway,
regardless of what you do.

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macmaharaja
I'm not an experienced manager or anyone to give advice thereof, but I have
experienced what your co-founder is currently going through. Last Year in
January, my father passed away and the next 8-9 months were miserable for me.
Sleeplessness, anxiety and depression were almost feeding to each other and
took a toll on me. I could hardly sleep for an hour at night for consecutive
weeks and months at a time.

I would start getting palpitations followed by dangerously high blood
pressure. Touch wood, nothing major happened to me and I'm back to normal
life.

If you guys can cooperate with him and give him the time, I'm sure he will
come back to leading a normal productive life.

Like someone suggested, give him an indefinite leave of absence and have him
work with therapists and recover fully.

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brudgers
Grandpa Fred was my beloved's grandpa. In 1998, we were out in Iowa visiting
the extended relatives on that side of the family and did a video interview
life review...on video tape. Grandpa Fred was born in 1912. We asked him about
his life. The first thing he said at age 86 was that his mother died when he
was twelve and "after that there was no picnic". It had been 74 years. He'd
buried a wife. And a son. And in his mind the death of his mother was the
defining event in his life.

From a business standpoint, it's an unlucky break. From a personal standpoint
it's a profound tragedy for your cofounder. If the business is viable this
won't be the last encounter with bad luck. How this one is handled will set
the company culture.

My random advice from the internet:

1\. Google up "grieving process". You won't discover how to fix it because
there ain't no fixing it. It might help you understand what your cofounder is
going through and suggest constructive ways to help.

2\. The tragedy effects all three of you. That's why there's demotivation and
frustration. Group counseling might be a way to work through the current
situation. Relationships are one the things that counseling strengthens.

3\. Reframing your coworker's condition as grieving rather than depressed puts
it in the right light. It acknowledges the proximate cause and places the
sadness within a timeline. More importantly it recognizes that the condition
is not pathological or a mental disorder. It's simply a healthy part of the
human condition.

4\. Suppose you and the other founder kick out the grieving cofounder.
Afterwards, there's still just the two of you. It is nice to imagine that the
business would be in the same shape that it's in now. But it won't be. It will
have gone through the distraction and disruption of removing a founder. On top
of the disruption and distraction that the death has already caused.

5\. Ultimately the business decision is whether to lawyer up or to team up. I
hate sports analogies, but here one would be managing a squad where someone
has blown out an ACL. The person can usually return to full fitness but it
takes time.

Good luck.

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lh7
Consider having a continuity plan next time. Personal tragedy is not an
uncommon occurrence.

> He's adamant he wants to continue, and he's seeking help from a counselor.

He's doing the right thing, both in seeking counsel and in wanting to
continue. Taking time off is extremely unlikely to help him.

Grieving affects everyone differently.

Whether you are a start-up or an established small business, chances are the
bulk of your value is in your management / founding team. That means the three
of you, working together as a team.

> The 3rd co-founder and I find it demotivating and frustrating when he
> disappears.

That is your problem, not his.

> I feel as if the best thing for the business is to let go of him, but it's a
> shitty thing to do. Moreover – I feel as if his depression would worsen if
> he lost his place in the team.

Wrong priorities. If you're not looking after your team you're not looking
after your company. Help the guy first and foremost.

Give him honest support, don't complain, take up the slack, man up and swallow
the frustration. It may well be you going through a rough patch next time.

These things suck but it's part of life (and business).

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endswapper
In my mind, the single best part of being a business owner/founder is freedom.
That includes the freedom to be compassionate. That's what is required here.

Your startup is really insignificant compared to losing a loved one.

I'm interested to know what he said when you communicated to him that the two
of you find him uncooperative and that you feel he is holding you and the
project up.

This has the potential to make your team stronger. This a good example of an
exception where this particular co-founder should come first over you, or the
project.

I don't think it's unreasonable to put a timeframe around this, so you don't
enable and he doesn't exploit the situation. I think that's closer to the 12
month mark than the 4 month mark.

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help505
If you haven't already talked to him about this, I would take down this post.
It seems very likely that he, or someone he knows, could read this and connect
the dots.

At the very least, you should minimize information related to the time-frame
and size of your team.

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jaketay
You say that you want him to "take some time off" but then mention that he is
"often absent". This to me signals a much greater issue. I think if you were
to remove him from your team it would be a huge mistake. We are people, not
machines. Sometimes we go through hard times. You need to build a company that
supports it's people during these difficult times not abandon them in their
time of need. Talk to him and let him know you are there to support him.

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tylercubell
Your story sounds similar to something that once happened at Valve. Gabe
Newell offered a sick employee an extended leave with pay and told him, "your
job is to get better." I believe he's still with the company.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Wolpaw#Personal_Life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Wolpaw#Personal_Life)

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kohanz
Have you already had an open and honest discussion with him outlining the
above? Presumably you have evidence of his decreased productivity so that it's
not a subjective point of view. What is his response when you tell him that
he's been absent and not productive when present? Maybe he doesn't want time
off, but he needs to come up with a plan with you guys that has him returning
to regular productivity.

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epynonymous
sounds like the real reason is that someone's not pulling their weight. the
question becomes, was this person pulling his/her weight before this family
affair? i'm assuming this was a random, sudden change or was the mother sick,
for example, during a long stretch and recently succumbed? what i'm guessing
is that this was a long battle, the latter, and that he hasn't been himself
for a long time. if you value his potential or previous contributions then put
him on extended leave, even if he doesn't want to, and then deal with it by
pushing harder or hiring people. if you're just using this recent development
as a trigger then i think it's a bit more involved and you probably are
regretful of having him in the first place, regardless of this most recent
change or not, but perhaps dealing with some guilt due to the recent passing
of his mother.

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supernormal
Define the separation between your personal and professional life clearly.
It's not a shitty thing to do.

I don't have any recommendations for which action to take next. But do try to
speak to him honestly and open up to each other as deeply as you can not only
to find out what action you should take next, but to come to a decision
together.

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147
If I recall the story correctly, Alexis Ohanian of reddit's mother passed
during the founding period. Perhaps you should try to reach out and see how
they dealt with it.

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pvaldes
Is his father still alive? Is the only son? How losing the mother had affected
to the other members of the family? Who cares for the father currently?

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YuriNiyazov
I think that next time you talk to him, instead of "suggesting" that he take
some time off, you have to clarify that it is not a suggestion, but a business
partner request, and a "no" will not be looked upon kindly.

~~~
hluska
With the limited information we have available, this advice is, at best,
extremely dangerous. We don't know:

\- the cap table.

\- the depressed founder's role in the company.

\- the make up of the rest of the team.

\- the articles of incorporation.

Without this information, there is no way that you can know if a hard sell,
like you propose, will backfire.

Business decisions, particularly those involving major personal losses and
ensuing mental illness, never happen in a vacuum. Advising a hard sell is
extremely irresponsible.

