
Switzerland: Welcome to the Drone Valley - imartin2k
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sci-tech/swiss-innovation_welcome-to-the-drone-valley/44375836
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KirinDave
Slightly off topic, but I just wanted to point out that this technology
they're working on is largely within reach of you as a hobbyist today. What's
impressive is the engineering resources and software control systems they're
adding.

But for less than $300, you can build a small 6" quadcopter from base parts,
purchase a small control radio, and a pair of inexpensive FPV
goggles+transmitter+receiver. Yeah, less than $300. China's amazing at this.

If you get a permit for it in the US (or ignore the law), $50 more gets you
radios with miles of range. Your primary limit will be batteries (solutions
exist, but bust the budget a bit, fixed wing drones are a lot of more
economical here).

But there is nothing magical or special about Switzerland other than a
concentration of interest. If you wanted, you could start competing with these
folks and stand up in front of a shady incubator looking for your economic
kickstart really, really fast. You don't need to fabricate parts to build
prototypes and most of this stuff is mass produced.

~~~
Matthias247
> But there is nothing magical or special about Switzerland other than a
> concentration of interest.

You could say similar things about Silicon Valley. And yet most people agree
that it’s a super important place for all tech stuff. So it seems to be a very
relevant factor.

~~~
tnecniv
That area is pretty tech oriented and there are a number of research groups in
at ETHZ that work with drone platforms exclusively.

It's no accident that the Valley is next to a group of strong universities.

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sandworm101
They have to work out the air traffic issues. I work for an organization that
does mountain flying in SAR scenarios (airforce, helicopters). We can be re-
tasked mid-air to a SAR scenario at any time. We need to know within minutes,
seconds, that the low level airspace is clear for us to operate. Can these
drones avoid large helicopters on their own, or do we need some system to
ground them all automatically?

This matters for us in particular because SAR can happen literally anywhere,
not just in restricted airspace around cities or airports. We really do
operate at less that 100 feet. We have landed in hospital parking lots. No
notice on the ground. Just suddenly a huge helicopter is parking itself beside
all the SUVs. That's what emergency means. So a large number of metal drones
is a real safety issue.

~~~
poof131
This is a very valid use case and something any UTM solution will have to
solve. Currently the industry is hoping the FAA will create an uber solution
and avoid “patchwork” solutions with state and local involvement, but that
will never scale. Local administrators will need to be able to geofence areas
in realtime. This will happen but it will take time to roll out and will
require local, state, and federal involvement in a manner similar to auto
transportation but with some unique aviation aspects.

~~~
sandworm101
>> require local, state, and federal involvement in a manner similar to auto
transportation

Or, we can do it in a manner similar to aviation. State and local governments
have no say. FAA rules govern aviation, with preemption making sure those
rules are not complicated by local authorities. Our helicopters cover a huge
area during normal operations. During cross-country transfers to things like
airshows they operate across the entire continent. Local, even state, rules
won't be welcome. It all has to come from the FAA.

~~~
poof131
Don’t believe an solution based purely on current aviation rules will work for
the scale drones will operate at. Firmly convinced that the 200-400’ feet will
more closely resemble class-A airspace than class-G and will involve local.
Rules will be standardized by the FAA but the administration will have to
involve local and they will have a say in restricted airspace, routes, etc. A
VFR free-for-all with drones will be a mid-air nightmare and no magical UTM
solution will solve it. Don’t disagree that the FAA has preemption, but the
current aviation model won’t work in the future and the FAA knows this. They
are pushing for more local involvement and it seems to primarily be industry
pushing back. Additionally, it isn’t settled law where property rights end.
Causby said 87 feet for sure but possibly higher. [1] Still a lot to be worked
out how drones will integrate in the national airspace.

[https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/328us256](https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/328us256)

~~~
sandworm101
Local input on rulemaking is fine, but local towns dont get to promulgate
rules as they do speed limits for cars. We cannot fly if every county gets a
direct say as to who can fly where on sunday afternoons after labor day. They
want to. They try. I field the calls, sometimes from local cops. Federal
premption protects us.

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mirekrusin
Interesting to see this on front hn, today I’ve packed everything in London
and left for Lausanne, arrived few minutes ago with family. Although
innovation activity wasn’t the reason we’ve moved here, it’s very interesting
to hear stories like this, there seems to be something good happening with
research, gov backing etc. I’ve noticed some good research in areas like
cryptography (zero knowledge proofs), formal proofs and now robotics/drones; I
know government is also running couple of projects backed by blockchain, quite
open minded, not seen much of this kind of interest from other European
governments (except Estonia maybe).

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kozikow
Having spent some time on business applications of drones, especially imagery,
I am actually quite bearish on startup application of drones.

Even if there are some locations that accept innovative experimentation with
drones (e.g. Switzerland or Japan), the majority of countries (e.g. the USA
with part 107) are quite restrictive. Because of severe restriction on
autonomy, all large-scale applications are not legal.

Not many people are investing time and money into building new drone
applications, as it's uncertain it will be legal in the near future. Without
serious $ behind it, drone regulations will probably stay restrictive. If you
are thinking about Amazon - I heard from multiple people that last-mile
delivery is actually more feasible with ground robots.

~~~
jillesvangurp
This will start changing as technology improves. Specifically it will change
as applications emerge where these things provide a concrete economic benefits
that offset the risk. Basically when that happens, money starts flowing to
regions where the legislation is more favorable and more innovation happens.
At some point there's a tipping point and legislation adapts due to pressure
of local parties missing out.

E.g. the agricultural sector in the US has enormous power on this front. They
already use lots of drones as well as e.g. helicopters to dry cherry trees,
crop dusting planes, etc. That business is quite expensive and an obvious
target for replacement by drones. When technology gets to the point where
legislation is the only real obstacle, there will be lots of pressure for
legislation to change. I'd say that's a question of when not if.

What will need to happen on the safety front is for drones to play nice with
regulated airspace and controllers/pilots in the area. Mostly drones currently
don't have stuff like ADS-B or transponders on board. Given how cheap and
light stuff like that is getting, I think it's a matter of time before there
will be some drone specific versions of that that allow controllers to monitor
any drone activity in their area. I imagine stuff like that won't be optional
for any commercial operations. Mostly drones are a danger only because they
stray in the path of other planes. If there's collision warnings, controller
advisories, etc. things get a lot safer.

~~~
kozikow
> E.g. the agricultural sector in the US has enormous power on this front.
> They already use lots of drones as well as e.g. helicopters to dry cherry
> trees, crop dusting planes, etc.

There is a bit of a chicken and egg problem here. As long as there is a
restriction of a single drone per pilot, using airplanes and helicopters tends
to be cheaper for most use cases.

~~~
jillesvangurp
Only under a closed world assumption. If e.g. Mexican and Canadian farmers
start seeing real cost reductions by using drone technology there will be some
very real market demand to sort out any legal obstacles for doing the same in
the US. Basically this article is about the Swiss being a bit more pragmatic
here. It's probably not the only part of the world where this is the case. I
imagine the Chinese are very eager to get a head start in this market as well.

So, the only effect of this legislation will be that likely successful
companies in this space may not necessarily end up being US based companies
and that the US will end up being late to the game. That in itself might be
enough incentive for this to get fixed sooner than later.

In the same way, self driving cars are being invested in despite legal
obstacles that currently make operating them illegal in most places.

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s3nnyy
Wingtra, the firm in the article with the helicopter/airplane-like drone
really made some headlines in local newspapers and rocked some prestigious
startup rankings.

Switzerland is clearly a startup hub for B2B companies and high/deep tech. I
guess, with only 8 million citizens, we can't go B2C and don't have any chance
to compete internationally other than "improving" B2B. Especially recently
Swiss firms invested a ton into automation after the "Frankenshock", a day in
February 2015 when the Swiss Franc appreciated by 15% to the Euro overnight
and hence endangered exports on which we rely on.

(Content marketing: If you are a software engineer with a EU-memberstate
citizenship, and want to move here, there are many interesting, well-paid
coding jobs in Zurich. Ping me at iwan@coderfit.com, if you want to get more
info.)

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natvert
Also, for folks interested in general "drone" (aka
research/commercialized/militarized robotics) news, the
[http://dronecenter.bard.edu/](http://dronecenter.bard.edu/) newsletter
provides fantastic weekly coverage.

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bogomipz
The article states:

>"In fact, there is a flourishing startup scene in the Drone Valley – the
stretch of land between EPFL and ETH Zurich."

I've been to ETH Zurich but I am not familiar with EPFL? Could someone say
where/what this is?

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chrisper
It's in Lausanne. It's on the other end of Switzerland (French border)

~~~
bogomipz
Thanks, OK so this definitely more of a "logical" valley :)

Besides the mentioned drone development is there much other tech and start up
activity in and around Lausanne? I feel like Zurich seems to get most of the
attention for tech in Switzerland.

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mrlaserOO
Hmm... all small scale projects. Point to point Drone delivery as killer
application is still not possible in Switzerland. Need special permission for
each flight/route.

~~~
ThePadawan
If you're thinking of an Amazon type delivery (and not, let's say delivery of
industrial goods, medicine, ...), the audience would not be there anyway.

Notably, major online retailers trialed same-day delivery (usually via bike
messenger) within major urban regions (e.g. Zurich) for a moderate charge.
Customers generally agreed that it was a great option, but no one used it, so
it got canned.

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monksy
This message was brought to you by the Switzerland Tourism Bureau. See our
beautiful land via drone footage.

~~~
TangoTrotFox
Bureau, like bureaucrat, bureaucratic, or bureaucracy.

~~~
kenneth
Could be the German Büro

~~~
monksy
That's what I was thinking of when I wrote out buro.

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ed_balls
The biggest problems with drones that are insolvable:

\- noise

\- air flow

\- airborne transport is not energy efficient

\- malfunctioning drone can cause a lot of damage

I see drones as cheaper helicopters. I doubt they will be used for mainstream
transportation or delivery system.

~~~
Moru
Drones are not only quad-copters, they can be fixed wing too and then the
noise goes way down. Also much more energy efficient to fly with fixed wing
than eight propellers. And higher speed too.

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zavi
A quick look at the market share numbers instantly renders this article false.

