
The True Story of the Amazon Door-Desk - wahnfrieden
http://blog.glennf.com/mtarchives/008652.html
======
spudlyo
I started in the catalog department at Amazon in 1997, right as Glennf left.
It took me an embarrassingly long time to realize that the desks were made out
of doors. It just seemed like giant clunky desk to me.

One thing I do remember distinctly about Glenn's time in the catalog
department was this terrifying 60k Perl script I inherited from him called
sitecounts.pl. This script examined all the various catalogs (books, reviews,
etc) and attempted to generate some interesting stats about them. One day it
just broke, and since it was used in the catalog build process to verify that
things were sane, it needed to get fixed pronto. The code was plenty
confusing, but what was the worst part was the extent of the right margin
creep, I'm talking 150+ character lines -- not exactly easy reading on my
crappy 15" X-terminal. I felt like a character in a HP Lovecraft story, slowly
descending into madness as I learned more about the horrors of this script.

I ended up maintaining and adding to this script my entire first stint at
Amazon. Eventually as I added features and changed things, it slowly got made
sane over time, save for a little bit of madness that I kept in there just so
I'd have a reminder of what it was like.

Ah the 90s. Good times.

~~~
nhashem
Unfortunately I don't have much to add to the OP, but I wanted to comment on
this. Everyone I know that hates Perl had some sort of experience where they
inherited some legacy Perl script that broke all the time and yet performed
business critical functions. I started my first full-time job in 2004, and
whenever I get together with my old co-workers we'll STILL talk about the
battle scars we had trying to bubble gum and tape together a particular script
called cc_processing.pl (yep, just as critical as the name implies), that
seemingly broke every other day and went so far down the rabbit hole you had
no idea how it ever ran successfully. $a{$a} = $a->{$a}? Sure, why not.

I wonder how much of Perl's reputation is based on these kinds of formative
experiences. I love Perl, but I'm realizing that everyone had their nemesis in
sitecounts.pl, or traffic_reports.pl, or partnerpayments.pl, or wtf-how-did-
this-ever-work.pl, and unfortunately didn't draw the same conclusions about
Perl that I did.

~~~
taligent
For me the problem with Perl isn't the language but the mindset the goes with
it.

It's like it triggers some primitive release of testosterone which results in
developers competing to fit the most functionality in one regex filled line of
craziness. Hilarious to watch. Hell to debug.

~~~
thwarted
Massive perl scripts that still lurk in our memories of the 90s were not the
result of testosterone fueled one-up-manship brogrammer culture. They are the
result of needing-to-get-the-report-generated-yesterday one-man-in-
the-"computers"-department every-programmer-was-a-sysadmin and-every-sysadmin-
knew-perl4-because-that's-all-that-shipped-with-HP-UX/Solaris/AIX (and you had
to pay extra for the compiler to build something more modern) culture -- if a
single person working in isolation can define a "culture", that is.

It's scripts like these that spawned the meme of replacing people with
scripts; because that's what these massive scripts did: automated away entire
departments, or negated the need to hire for a department all together. Which
is important when you're a two man company and all of a sudden you've
discovered you need to process $100k of credit card transactions from
yesterday, and you better get started on it because there's already another
$300k in transactions generated today. It's only one script, so there's no
need for revision control. Damn, there's only one guy working on it, it can
run out of his home directory. And of course, it was so successful,
successfully a blackbox, he's asked to automate some other task, which is only
related because there's some slight dependency, and, well, it's a dependency,
so let's just put it in the same script we already run. Rinse, repeat.

Were these scripts terrible? Of course. But they were the work horses of the
Internet and any company with two CPUs to rub together in the 90s. There's a
reason that "perl is the duct tape of the Internet" was a saying in the mid-
to late- 90s: because it was.

These scripts work perfectly fine if the person who wrote them and fully
understand them runs them, yet inexplicably fall apart when someone who didn't
write them run them (similar to [0]). These scripts can smell the fear of the
new guy put in charge to maintain them. This is where heisenbugs roost and
schroedinbugs become the stuff nightmares are made of, despite that they had
most likely been running without issue for months or years since the guy who
wrote them left.

[0] "Tom Knight and the Lisp Machine"
<http://catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html#id3141171>

~~~
pasbesoin
Like a "real" language, Perl has dialects -- including the grunts of the lone
boy raised in the wild by wolves.

Don't blame the boy.

(And remember, he was raised by wolves. Yeoowww!)

~~~
thwarted
Don't blame the language either. It just is what it is. But there is value in
the things you can learn about the code, the people, and the times by taking
an anthropological view of it.

In fifteen or twenty years we'll be reading rants from people who had to cut
their teeth on some overly designed, needlessly abstracted, difficult-to-
build-all the-dependencies-for rails app.

It's cyclical.

~~~
pasbesoin
Along those lines, reading _Programming Perl_ is a pleasure in good part
because Larry et al. spend time explaining not just the language but also
where some of it comes from and its rationale (or not so rational ;-).

Note that I'm referring to the first or second edition (maybe the third); I
understand that the fourth edition is just recently out.

TIMTOWTDI

------
wooster
_sigh_

I was an intern at Tellme, which used door-desks early employees had to build
themselves. I built a desk in pretty much the same style as the Tellme desks
(although structurally more sound… I can jump up and down on mine thanks to an
extra 2x4), which were based on the Amazon desks.

My desk, which I have used since 2003, is a 30" x 80" x 1-3/8" hollow core
white door, on four cut to order 27.5" 4x4's from Home Depot. It cost less
than $50 to make and is a very nice desk. It took me less than two hours to
build, from leaving my house to driving to Home Depot to building the final
product.

My next desk will be a built-to-order sit-stand adjustable desk, but that's
because I'm currently able to earn enough money (and am concerned enough about
my health) to justify the cost. If I were still 23 and concerned about costs,
I'd build a desk identical to my current one in a heartbeat.

~~~
jjcm
As someone who got a year out of those Tellme desks before we moved, thanks
for building them. Goddamn they were sturdy.

------
amcintyre
My true story of the door-desk is that it made me think, "Wow, they're making
everybody use desks that look like they were built from things they swiped
from a dumpster behind Home Depot...how much are they going to nickel and dime
me when it comes to compensation?"

Sure, the work sounded interesting and the people seemed competent and
friendly, but the view of an open floor plan filled with those desks really
dampened any excitement I had about working there.

~~~
hrktb
Imagine the employees at some instances of Yahoo when they removed the water
coolers for cost efficiency reasons...

------
brianstorms
I own a door desk, bought from the Saltaire company in Seattle, the one that
made Amazon's desks. I had interviewed at Amazon in 1997 and saw the door-
desks everywhere and asked one of the people there where they got them and
found out the company info. (Meanwhile, the interview didn't go well: they
didn't seem to like me and I really thought the company was creepy -- every
interview was unpleasant, every person I met was arrogant and the whole vibe
of the place felt wrong.) Anyway, I went to Saltaire and special-ordered one
of their door-desks. Cost around $200 plus tax. I still have it 15 years
later, it's in use every day.

------
kevinburke
I worked at Google for a brief period of time and put in a work order for a
door desk, as it was part of the culture I read about in 'In the Plex' and
more.

Sadly I was told that only senior VP's and up could have door desks. Maybe in
20 years :)

~~~
jrockway
Why did you want a door desk when you can get an electronically-controlled
height-adjustable desk? Much more ergonomic...

~~~
praptak
It is not always that ergonomy is the same as satisfaction.

~~~
jrockway
What makes a door better than a normal desk?

~~~
thematt
They're larger and typically deeper than the height adjustable ones.

~~~
jrockway
What do you do with a deep desk? My IKEA table at home is already too deep,
all I do with the extra space is store a monitor that I don't use. At work,
the extra space hosts a marble track. And this is with a standard desk; a door
would just be a massive dust collector.

Space that you can't easily reach is essentially useless. My desk mostly
exists to take up space between the wall and my monitor so my legs have
somewhere to stretch out to.

------
aneth4
There is something symbolic about something impractical and expensive becoming
a symbol for practicality and frugality.

There was a recent post on HN about a startup in Seattle spending loads of
time to build door desks, an apparent attempt to emulate Amazon. Perhaps
purchasing ergonomic desks for a reasonable price and no time sink would be a
better strategy than these clunkers.

~~~
vonmoltke
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I have never been able to find
heavy-duty desks at a reasonable price, except for the old-fashioned sit in
the middle, drawers on the side design. I've built my variants of the door
desk at home specifically because they were cheaper than the alternatives,
even the cheap particle board desks fro the big box stores.

My variant is to lay two 2x4s across either two filing cabinets or sawhorses,
then put two 2'x4' sheets of 5/8" or 3/4" MDF on top of the studs. Cheap[1],
toolless[2], and portable[2]. My current variant is a little more elaborate,
since I wanted a corner desk, but fundamentally the same architecture.

[1] The sawhorse version costs less than $50 [2] Nothing is attached

~~~
codeonfire
You can get a laminated 8' folding table nicely finished with a steel frame
for $80 new that will hold at least 1000 lbs and doesn't have to be taken
apart. i actually got one for $50 new a few years ago. I tried lots of lumber
yard solutions, too until I realized there is a superior engineered solution.

~~~
vonmoltke
That was what I originally wanted, but I haven't seen any around Dallas that
strong for less than ~$150. I probably would have been fine with a regular
(but no el cheapo) folding table, but I have a tendency to overbuild things.

~~~
codeonfire
These are solid and $80-$90, rated for 600 lbs, seats 8 people or 8 machines.

[http://www.officemax.com/office-furniture/tables/folding-
tab...](http://www.officemax.com/office-furniture/tables/folding-
tables/product-prod3360130)

[http://www.staples.com/Staples-8-Folding-Melamine-Banquet-
Ta...](http://www.staples.com/Staples-8-Folding-Melamine-Banquet-
Tables/product_885759)

------
kragen
When I was at AirWave, which was an IdeaLab company, we had door desks made of
hollow-core doors set on top of two cheap steel filing cabinets. Maybe other
IdeaLab companies did the same thing.

These worked fine as long as you didn't poke holes in them, but at first they
were a little unstable, since the doors would slide around no top of the
filing cabinets. At some point, somebody had the idea of putting some of the
Thinking Putty we had sitting around the office on top of the filing cabinets,
and that kept the doors from sliding.

This is considerably more frugal, in my view, than the solid-core doors with
metal brackets to attach the legs. Lightweight, easy to move, easy to
disassemble (the Thinking Putty stained the wood with its oil but didn't get
stuck itself), lots of storage space in the drawers, etc.

~~~
pasbesoin
I picked up the tip from an IKEA employee of using (industrial) Velcro. That's
what they use at the store to keep things from flopping about. Works a trick.

------
nhebb
I had a door desk in college. It was solid core with a flat surface. You could
buy them at a deep discount if you found one with surface defects. I used
cinder blocks to support the corners, making it cheap and portable. Simply
put, it was the best desk I have ever had.

------
kghose
I'm sorry, I read the whole article and could not understand it. perhaps I
need more sleep. Are doors cheaper than desks? Why is this a cost saving
measure? Did the desks double as doors? I guess there is some industry insider
stuff that I am just not getting.

~~~
brown9-2
_The doors were expensive, built to an arbitrary height, heavy, difficult to
move, and horrible for body health because of the bad ergonomics. That's when
I started having to see an acupuncturist for carpal tunnel and related
problems. And also note that these were exterior doors: moving a exterior door
through an interior door frame with legs permanently attached is a tricky
task. At the time, a slightly smaller desk (or even a study banquet table)
would have cost 1/3 to 1/2 the amount and worked far better._

~~~
jrockway
Indeed. The door desks were one reason I turned down an offer from Amazon. If
they want their employees to get carpal tunnel, what other landmines lie
lurking?

------
scrame
I worked there for about 3 years in the mid 00's. Everyone still had door
desks, and all-hands frequently mentioned the fact that they were less cost-
effective than actual desks, but they still used them as a reminder of
frugality.

~~~
brown9-2
How is it frugal to buy something less cost effective than another product
that would work equally as well?

~~~
mcguire
It reminds visitors that you're frugal, even if you aren't.

------
unabridged
I am a fan of large surface desks with nothing underneath. My favorite desk
I've ever had is just a 6ft banquet table like
[http://www.lifetime.com/tableschairs/rectangular/6-foot-
adju...](http://www.lifetime.com/tableschairs/rectangular/6-foot-adjustable-
height). It can be packed in the back of an SUV/minivan, relatively light, and
very sturdy.

------
ryporter
I worked at Amazon in '05/'06, and the _perception_ of frugality was still
important then. For example, someone from another group complained to me that
they were being forced by higher-ups to remove a set of plastic plants they
had recently bought. When it was pointed out that the plants were actually
quite cheap (not to mention a sunk cost), the reply was that they "looked
expensive."

------
Stratoscope
I've never used a door desk, but in addition to the other negatives already
mentioned, I have to imagine that they must be rather wobbly, like the Ikea
desks we had at a startup I was at several years ago.

If anyone wants a great cheap desk (around $250 delivered), I recommend the
Hon AM3060:

<https://www.google.com/search?q=hon+am3060>

These things are extremely sturdy with no sideways wobble at all. They are
adjustable height and have adjustable feet for uneven floors. I've had a
couple of them for years and think they're great.

Unfortunately, Hon seems to have discontinued them. The only model I see in
stock anywhere is the AM3060ZZP with a mahogany colored top. I have the
AM3060ML with a light oak color top, and there was also one with a gray top.
(All the tops are a laminate.)

There also used to be an AM3048 and an AM3072, but I don't see those anywhere.
(The model numbers indicate the top size: 30x48, 30x60, 30x72.)

~~~
jsolson
> I've never used a door desk, but in addition to the other negatives already
> mentioned, I have to imagine that they must be rather wobbly, like the Ikea
> desks we had at a startup I was at several years ago.

They're not. Actually, neither is my Ikea desk at home, for that matter.

A well-built door desk has the legs braces on two axes (note: not all of them
are correctly built) and the legs are really quite substantial. I'm a fan of
the "giant table as desk" school of office furniture selection, so I actually
rather like my door desk. It's one of the only things supplied by Amazon that
I didn't feel the need to eliminate or replace out of pocket.

~~~
rdl
What tools does Amazon provide to a software engineer?

------
japhyr
Can anyone find a link to pictures of the original desks? Google shows a bunch
of desks built by people who were inspired by this story.

------
InclinedPlane
One down side of those door desks, sometimes they leak sap on you because the
legs are made of just plain old unfinished lumber.

~~~
adestefan
If your lumber is leaking sap, then you've got problems.

------
darushimo
I just don't care any more. this site is not for old startup people to wax
anything. I want to start something. I know or know about these stories
already. I'm not excited for this culture to get all pseudo-nostalgic.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
I thought about this comment for a while before I decided to vote up.

On the negative is an unwillingness to learn from the previous generation.
They've made a lot of mistakes we shouldn't.

On the positive is a willingness to say "screw the establishment". We are
going down a path that leads to a better place.

In the end, I think we need less establishment and more better places. We
should recognize where we came from, but not get stuck idolizing it.

~~~
jessedhillon
The comment deserves a downvote, if for no other reason than because the last
thing HN needs is another person whining about how they _want_ to start a
company. A thousand graybeard reminiscences filling the front page never would
be as harmful to OP's chances as the fact that he thinks the top story on HN
is in any way connected with him starting a company.

------
moron
Sounds penny-wise and pound-foolish. Works as lore, though.

~~~
blu3jack
The opposite is true: it was penny-foolish and pound-wise. As Glenn pointed
out -- the door desks were an expensive and ergonomicaly unsound symbol that
told a true story about frugality and the relationship between the company and
the employee. Because of the omnipresent symbol of frugality, many cost saving
decisions were made that undoubtedly paid for the cost of the door desks many
times over.

The less happy side of the symbol: that amazon really didn't care about
employees was reinforced in other ways as well. A common refrain from Jeff: if
you're not happy here, leave. Life is too short to be unhappy.

In some senses that's a bold answer, and an honest one. But note that the
answer was very, very rarely: what can we do to make life better here?

The door desks were also a symbol to us all that if you wanted to work at a
place that cared about your health, well-being, and happiness, you might very
well want to move on.

But, to be fair, three counterbalancing factors held people there: hard
engineering problems, the very real prospect of wealth, and working on a
product that was very, very successful. I never heard Bezos give anyone the
sugar water speech: he didn't have to. It was obvious that Amazon was changing
the world.

