
Ask HN: Why aren't there any large e-ink monitors? - csours
I tend to read PDFs at my computer, and I would prefer to read them on e-ink, on a large display.<p>I just searched and found Dasung Paperlike[0], but it seems both quite small and quite expensive.<p>Is there some technological limitation to creating a large e-ink monitor?<p>0:https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.indiegogo.com&#x2F;projects&#x2F;paperlike-world-s-first-e-ink-monitor-13-3#&#x2F;
======
DaiPlusPlus
Visionect have a 32" ePaper displays in color and grayscale:
[https://www.visionect.com/blog/32-inch-eink-development-
kit-...](https://www.visionect.com/blog/32-inch-eink-development-kit-by-
visionect)

But they're pricy: grayscale is $3600, color is $4700:
[https://www.visionect.com/development_kits](https://www.visionect.com/development_kits)

The underlying display is still made by eInk Inc, who sells a very similar
product on their own website: 31.5" instead of 32", and only in grayscale -
but surprisingly: for only $2000: [http://shopkits.eink.com/product/signage-
evaluation-kit-v3-w...](http://shopkits.eink.com/product/signage-evaluation-
kit-v3-with-31-2-epaper-display-ed312tt2/)

I plan to buy one of these large eInk/ePaper displays and mount them on the
wall in my home's atrium where I'll display a dashboard showing traffic
levels, road cameras, and a weather update. I'd really like color though, but
$2000 vs $4700 - I guess I'll make-do.

~~~
luka-birsa
I'm one of the founders of Visionect and we've been providing tools for EPD
development for a while now. The pricing towards E Inks development kit
reflects the tooling that is included in our development kits - you're able to
plug one 32" panel to ethernet, configure the IP and display an image in
minutes. Dynamic applications are simple web pages, so that gets our
developers off the ground very fast - for instance: integration with
Geckoboard literally means entering one URL in the server configuration.

PS: If I were looking to deploy a wall mounted panel which doesn't look like a
development kit, I would wait for a while. ;)

------
SonderDesign
I'm the founder of Sonder, an E Ink smart keyboard startup; I've written here
previously about E Ink when we were published in WSJ regarding Apple.

E Ink is a brilliant display, but the process of manufacturing, cutting the
TFT mask etc is expensive; only on mass volumes can displays costs become
incredibly cheap (6" E Ink in a kindle is <$10 USD). It's the same for most
displays OLED etc in small volumes are expensive; which is why the touchbar
solution COGS is over $200 USD.

Therefore E Ink has a high MOQ of a few hundred thousand units, anything below
that and you're priced at basically prototype costs which is why a 32" E Ink
display is $2k.

------
AdamJacobMuller
Depends how large you want to get, and what you really want it for.

If its really just for reading PDFs, have you tried a Kindle DX?

If you want something hooked up to a computer for whatever reason, I know
[http://shopkits.eink.com/product/13-3%CB%9D-epaper-
display-e...](http://shopkits.eink.com/product/13-3%CB%9D-epaper-display-
es133ut2/) does exist and you can buy it (alibet its expensive -- but not as
expensive as the dasung, wow, 1300?) but its very DIY development kit.

There was another company in the USA that I found that also sells e-ink
displays that are _HUGE_ , they do it as digital signage (menu at a coffee bar
type stuff). I can't fathom what they charge but its probably astronomical.

I do think this is all a bit unfortunate, I would love to have a few of these
e-ink displays on my walls at home for things like shared calendar with my
family and put a few in the office for our calendars too but its just crazy
expensive and very inaccessible for now.

Unfortunately I think e-ink missed the boat. They never got past the volume
curve to make large displays remotely mass produced (due to expense), and they
are expensive because they aren't mass produced....

~~~
csours
I haven't tried the DX. Ideally I'd like a monitor that was _bigger_ than the
standard 8.5x11 PDF page.

The other use case for it being a monitor is ease of use. It is slightly
difficult to transfer a PDF to a Kindle; not very difficult I know, but enough
that I rarely do it.

I think you are right about manufacturing scale. LCDs have such incredible
scale I don't think e-ink could ever match, unless there was a combined e-ink
LCD.

\---

Side note, that 13.3 e-ink kit looks suspiciously like the Dasung Paperlike
form factor.

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
I got my dad an Amazon Kindle DX for Christmas 2013 - right around the time
they discontinued it. The display still looks good today, though not as white
as the latter-day handheld Kindles, and the product casing bends easily with
slight pressure which makes the device feel cheap, though I appreciate it is
very lightweight for its size.

It'd be great if Apple's industrial design team did an e-ink iPad, they would
be able to make it considerably thinner and sturdier.

------
LorenzoLlamas
Madness. If you want black and white dashboards in your office or home, or if
you want to mount it vertically and read PDFs, just get a matte HD monitor,
and set it up for B&W on your software settings. Then, you can turn it into a
fish tank display when you aren't reading or viewing your dashboard (which
sounds lame to me, but geekiness knows no bounds, I suppose). What is e-ink
for? The "powered off" viewability? A real monitor left on all year takes
almost no energy. I mean, if you can consider $3000 to put a dashboard up to
monitor the weather (what is happening to the human race?), you can swing the
extra $20/year by just leaving a real monitor on 24/7, especially when you'll
only pay $250 for it. Madness. Maybe go out and spend time in the rain and not
know it was coming? Or just talk to people and get to know them? Or explore
new places in town with using a mapping tool first? Sigh... we are all doomed.

------
luka-birsa
I'm one of the founders of Visionect
([http://www.visionect.com](http://www.visionect.com)), that focuses on EPD
solutions. We offer a bunch of development kits (6"-32") that can be easily
productivized (our customers are building bus stops, traffic signs, museum
signage, room booking systems,...)

There are no technological limitations in terms of the panel size (backplane
technology is practically the same as TFT), but its rather a volume question.

We see this "personal display" theme pop-up quite often on our email, but the
pricing is prohibitive (even compared to high quality and high resolution LCD
_consumer_ panel) and the refresh rate does impose a lot of limitations on
what you can do.

I think that E Ink is best used for displaying information and use cases that
benefit from E Ink itself (think high contrast, outdoor scenarios, indoor
units that work 24/7, applications where you can power a display with a
battery and reduce installation complexity).

~~~
rneilan
There is a minority of people who are interested in e-ink monitors because
it's felt this type of screen does not trigger migraines. My experience with
e-ink is with the Kindle, and it seems that I am not tensing up my forehead as
much. My second point is going to sound a bit silly, but I'll put it out there
anyway with the chance that someone relates. I think I have an Internet
addiction problem, and I like the idea of making it a bit harder/slower to
peruse the Internet. If it takes a site longer to load, I'm going to be more
judicious in what I click on. Ok. Go ahead and laugh now.

------
ccakes
[https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/03/quirklogic-s-quilla-
is-a...](https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/03/quirklogic-s-quilla-is-a-42-inch-
e-ink-whiteboard/)

Looks like if it's a technical issue, it's a solvable one.

~~~
AdamJacobMuller
That looks really cool and I'd totally buy one even if it was like 1-2k, but
unfortunately its probably 10x that or more.

------
RandomOpinion
There's Visionect's 32" e-ink display ($3599 for the dev kit or $4699 if you
want the color version): [https://www.visionect.com/product/development-kit-
with-grays...](https://www.visionect.com/product/development-kit-with-
grayscale-32-e-ink-display/24)

There isn't any technological limitation as far as I know; it's just that
e-ink displays are hideously expensive to make.

------
bnolsen
I wouldn't mind having a 24" or 27" for coding use. All those years of having
active pixels (and phosphors) blasting my eyes can't be a good thing. An issue
might be getting good quality ambient lighting to use with a display like
this.

~~~
atomical
I think the slow refresh rate would make coding impossible.

~~~
andruc
The refresh rate of the e-ink displays of certain smart watches surprised me.
It was displaying fluid animations without any ghosting.

I'm not sure if refresh rate is a function of display size at all, but I will
say they've come a long way at improving it over earlier Kindle modles.

~~~
ClassyJacket
If you're referring to the Pebble, that used Memory LCD, not EInk, and it's a
completely different technology.

------
eicnix
There is the Onyx Book Max which is a 13.3" grayscale Android tablet with an
e-ink display. Which is kinda "cheap" with around $750 compared to other large
e-ink devices.

I use it to read PDFs and take notes with a stylus pen.

[https://www.amazon.com/Onyx-Max-13-3-Flexible-
Handwriting/dp...](https://www.amazon.com/Onyx-Max-13-3-Flexible-
Handwriting/dp/B01EVACVHY)

------
nvukas
There is also PaperCast company
([http://www.papercast.net](http://www.papercast.net)). They found their
market in bus stop displays, but also work for other applications. You get
illuminated device for outdoor use in anodised aluminium frame and with
antiglare front protective glass. Just contact them. They will try to find a
solution also for your application.

------
ssivark
A little searching brought up a recent survey of available "large" e-ink based
readers which I'm pasting here in case others also find it useful:
[http://blog.the-ebook-reader.com/2017/01/19/large-e-ink-
erea...](http://blog.the-ebook-reader.com/2017/01/19/large-e-ink-ereaders-
roundup-for-2017/)

------
maxmonlt
Sony has a bigger screen ebook reader but it is also expensive. I have been
using Kindle DXG but it has no WIFI module.

------
CyberFonic
e-ink displays refresh rather slowly. My Kindle is slow to page refresh when I
use the built-in browser. I'm assuming that that flicker would become
progressively worse as the displays become larger.

~~~
SonderDesign
Our E Ink keyboard startup has developed timing controllers to avoid this.
This is 4hz, you can get up to 20 Hz; and play videos or games on E Ink.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1tmjDDK7jY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1tmjDDK7jY)

