
Second Canadian 'missing' in China - rgbrenner
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-46548614
======
monksy
If this is a retaliation and they intend on continuing on this. China is going
to find it's self on the bad end of travel advisories by a lot of western
nations.

BTW There have been videos about "tourist crackdowns" and how some of the
authoritarian governments use visitors as scapegoats of bad behavior.

~~~
diminish
US has become a risky destination for ordinary business travel. I suppose
business and tech conferences better take place in neutral places where rule
of law prevails.

~~~
sonnyblarney
This is simply false, and the US will continue to be the #1 location for tech
conferences for the foreseeable future.

The only risk to travellers is that US customs may require people to see their
Facebook profiles etc. - which is bad - but nobody is getting arrested
arbitrarily, and even if they were 'rule of law prevails'.

~~~
ahakki
Well I don’t know about tech, but multiple swiss banks have had internal
advisories against visit to the US, as some of their employees have been
arrested.

~~~
sonnyblarney
Swiss banks have been hiding assets of people worldwide and many nations
consider that a crime. So yes, if you're helping Americans cheat on their
taxes, you're going to get arrested.

So the 'advisory' would be: don't break laws.

~~~
NTDF9
> So the 'advisory' would be: don't break laws.

Whose laws? Why should the Swiss follow US laws? What if the US establishes
arbitrary laws? Should the Swiss still follow those laws?

~~~
tomp
But that's the point, no? Swiss have their own laws (hiding assets), US have
their own laws (arresting people who hide assets), seems perfectly fair.

Personally, I wish no developed (e.g. EU, US) country would allow any economic
relationship with any country that allows tax avoidance (like 0% tax) or tax
evasion (like bank secrecy).

~~~
NTDF9
> Personally, I wish no developed (e.g. EU, US) country would allow any
> economic relationship with any country that allows tax avoidance (like 0%
> tax) or tax evasion (like bank secrecy).

But US allows huge tax deductions for businesses. Maybe other countries don't?
Wouldn't they have a right to say, "Personally, I wish no developed (e.g. EU,
US) country would allow any economic relationship with any country that allows
unfair deductions or tax evasion (like states give to Amazon).

------
RidingPegasus
Outline for us Indochina types:
[https://outline.com/qUJvaJ](https://outline.com/qUJvaJ)

Quite surprised Canada has gotten itself into this considering the potential
for escalation which is now playing out. A "NGO worker", possibly of natsec
value and now another Canadian national.

What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty?

Watching the US and China duke it out in a trade war is somewhat in other
countries interest economically, high profile arrests to use as bargaining
chips is a risky business and the canucks seem to have thrown themselves right
in the midst of it.

To add to the absurdity the EU is pushing ahead with maintaining the Iran deal
and are indicating their multinationals will continue doing business despite
US sanctions.

~~~
ahmedalsudani
Canada has an extradition agreement with the US. The Canadian government has a
duty to uphold its end, which means arrest the individual when the US requests
it and investigate the merits of the case.

The Justice Department would do the same, though I'm sad to say, as a
Canadian, that our prosecutors in Canada seem less interested in high-level
white collar crime. (Yes, less interested than their American counterparts,
believe it or not.)

~~~
RidingPegasus
The US has a long history of refusing extradition requests by allies despite
overwhelming evidence. It's become a one way street. The UK has blocked
extradition to the US before even though the guilt is assured[0], the alleged
crimes here are nothing in comparison.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon#British_governme...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon#British_government_blocks_extradition)

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _the alleged crimes here are nothing in comparison_

Willfully violating sanctions is a serious crime.

~~~
lechiffre10
Sanctions imposed by the U.S that hold no merit according to WTO or
International law aren't even legal and are in fact considered an act of war.
The only crime committed here is by the U.S.

~~~
briandon
Meng's arrest is for actions she allegedly took to help Iran evade sanctions
years ago, during the period in which U.N. sanctions on Iran were in force.

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-s-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-
s-unofficial-skycom-allegedly-used-to-break-sanctions)

------
KaoruAoiShiho
Is this really retaliation for Meng? Wow that's incredibly artless and ham-
fisted if true.

~~~
gpm
All evidence points towards it being so.

The first Canadian detained this time was a diplomat on a leave of absence
from the foreign service [0]. As non politically neutral as you can get
without seriously violating diplomatic protocol.

China has a history of detaining people over political issues like this. The
last time (2014) we (Canada) were considering extraditing a spy to the US they
arrested two random Canadians and held them for half a year and 2 years [1].

As a Canadian I certainly hope that the only reaction by the Canadian
government to this will be sanctions and cooling of relationships. We should
not give into this bullying. Having a totalitarian state behind you should not
make you above the law. People who chose to visit foreign states have to
accept the risk that they will be subject to unjust laws.

[0] [https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kovrig-detained-china-
tuesd...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kovrig-detained-china-
tuesday-1.4940725)

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/01/world/canada/canadian-
cou...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/01/world/canada/canadian-couple-china-
detention.html)

------
wybiral
People are jumping to a number of conclusions in these threads with little
evidence. The rapid down-voting is crazy.

There's no confirmation that this had anything to do with Meng, or that these
people weren't guilty of something worth investigating.

Wait for more details before assuming that everything is connected.

~~~
curiousgal
Extrapolating from that, I always find it amusing when people seem to have
global politics figured out, not realizing that it's a complex dynamic system
with hundreds if not thousands of agents at play, when they ,the very same
people, would be lost watching a two-player poker game.

~~~
latch
It's concerning. People have strong opinions (bordering on it being a "fact")
about places they've never been to (or near). They might have never even left
their country. It isn't something they've studied, it isn't remotely related
to their work. But they still _know_ how it is.

~~~
abc-xyz
I shamefully lived in China for a long period, and almost every Chinese person
I've talked to was either misinformed or oblivious to the kind of negative
news you see discussed on HN. You can learn a lot, both negative and positive,
about living in the country that you'd have no way of knowing if you hadn't
been there (or done a lot of research), e.g. how foreigners are not allowed to
stay at most cheapish hotels and will even be turned away from a lot of
apartments. But by living in China then you're less likely to know about these
news because if it isn't censored then you'll be exposed to their propaganda
instead. And things are going to get much worse when the social credit system
really kicks in and the citizens benefit from spreading propaganda.

------
str33t_punk
China is making themselves look horrible here.

Ms. Meng has a proper reason for being arrested (the allegations are that she
committed fraud to bypass US sanctions against Iran and sell them US tech by
lying about HuaWei and SkyComs involvement to HSBC). There will be a trial,
this investigation has been happening for years, and it is by the Justice
Department, not a request from Trump (who seems to have been caught surprised
by the move). Canada didn't do anything, they are simply honoring their
extradition treaties.

In contrast, China is just throwing a fit in response and arresting random
Canadians on trumped up charges. These are clearly politically motivated
(China had threatened Canada with 'consequences' \-- the timing is way too
suspect here). We have been given no reason why they have been detained, and
there are no court hearings or anything -- they have just been 'disappeared'.
With this move, China has shown how authoritarian and anti business they are.
No justice department, no investigation. These are simply political hostages.
Further more, it is completely spineless that they are going after the, less
powerful, Canadian nationals, and not Americans.

~~~
BLKNSLVR
Whatever it is, it's nowhere near is simple as the good guy / bad guy
situation you're making it out to be.

US sanctions against Iran versus the "situation normal" with Saudi Arabia
despite the state-sanctioned murder of a journalist makes a mockery of US
foreign policy.

It's not as simple as that either. It's politics and money. ie. There will be
no winners, and everyone involved is already covered in shit.

~~~
str33t_punk
I'm not arguing for or against Iran sanctions. However, they exist, and the US
has a history of enforcing such sanctions. Getting around sanctions is
typically given large punishments (see the Movie 'War Dogs'). This is not some
arrest on trumped up charges for 'national security' like the Chinese arrest

The fact of the matter is that there is strong evidence that Huawei committed
fraud to breach US sanctions. This is neither a 'good' or 'bad' thing, it is
just very illegal.

------
ralph84
I have little doubt both of these guys are spies. A guy working for an NGO
that does "crisis research" and a guy leading tours in North Korea. LOL. Any
country with sufficiently advanced counter-intelligence has a list of spies
operating on their soil that they monitor and keep in reserve for when it's
politically favorable to round them up.

~~~
mywtfmp3
1\. Canada doesn't spy China. They cannot be spies. 2\. China is an
authoritarian state. The two Canadian are innocent. 3\. I have made my mind
before reading the article.

------
em3rgent0rdr
> "endanger China's national security"

Victimization is a common tool of tyrants. In particular, China govt likes to
use the phrase "hurt the feelings of the Chinese people" (伤害了中国人民的感情).

------
wisdomoftheages
Meng was arrested for fraud, lying to U.S. banks and violating financial
disclosure laws; no different than any garden variety money-launderer.

Most importantly, she's had a day in court, been granted bail in a hearing
that was open to the media, and if extradited, will receive due process and a
fair criminal trial where everyone will get to see the evidence against her.

These two men have been 'disappeared'. Good luck ever seeing any shred of due
process for them. Not even the most shameless Xi mouthpiece can credibly claim
that China has anything resembling an independent judicial system.

It's not surprising that all Chinese media and all commentators loyal to the
Xi clique have cynically framed this in terms of Meng being 'abducted' or
'held hostage'. The worldview of authoritarian, personal dictatorship cannot
even conceive of due process and the rule of law (which also accounts for some
of the idiotic off-the-cuff remarks that Trump has made - fortunately, the
U.S. still has a semi-functioning government with separation of powers and an
independent judiciary, so he's not really in the saddle here)

~~~
kw71
None of this 'How China Works' is new to anyone. Canada should have considered
it when deciding to get involved.

While the majority of US Federal prosecutions are honest, FBI agents and US
attorneys do get involved in misapplication of the law and reckless
prosecution for political or personal reasons.

And our president respecting rule of law or being better than Xi on any
measure except successful criminal behavior is a real tough sell. It would be
easier to sell sand in the desert.

~~~
shard972
> None of this 'How China Works' is new to anyone. Canada should have
> considered it when deciding to get involved.

Maybe on HN, but is this really old news to all of our governments? I was
watching CBC last night on all the issues the Canadian government is now
running into with their 5g rollout since they were one of the few western
countries who decided to deal with china.

Either they didn't know what china was, or they have better information on
china then we do.

> And our president respecting rule of law or being better than Xi on any
> measure except successful criminal behavior is a real tough sell.

Is this a troll? Did we see trump pass a law unlocking the term limit for
president? Because Xi did that, that's why hes even still in office.

~~~
kw71
Nobody sane ever expected China to be a 'rule of law' country in the Western
sense though. I don't know enough about Chinese law to judge whether changing
a law should have been allowed. But that law is changed, by whatever
mechanism, and that is a bit different to acting in contravention of a law.

------
tomohawk
China disappears people all the time. May or may not be related to the Meng
thing. Here's another:

[https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7911948/chinese-
photographer-d...](https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7911948/chinese-photographer-
dark-side-communist-state-vanishes/)

------
gcb0
global fight for dominance via proxy countries didn't end with cold war:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalism)

------
fatjokes
The US has played Canada. They request this, Canada performs the arrest, Trump
plays good cop ("I'll intervene if I have to"), and China can't retaliate
against the US but can take it out on Canada. I'm sure Trump is giddy given
how much he dislikes Trudeau.

~~~
giarc
I don't believe Canada was played. I doubt she would have ever taken a flight
through the USA and therefore this was probably their only chance to get her.

~~~
RidingPegasus
The sealed indictment for her arrest was 4 months ago on Aug 22, she has
traveled through numerous countries including Canada in that time. The arrest
came only hours after US/China trade talks finished, it's also unusual in that
it's an individual rather than the company being taken to court.

She's also the CFO of the world's 2nd biggest smartphone manufacturer that
just overtook Apple. Decide for yourself.

~~~
sonnyblarney
If this is true, it really sheds light on this because it would indicate the
arrest was political.

Given the situation, I actually doubt it. I don't think this is Trump et. al.
throwing a curve ball, I think this is the Feds just doing their job with bad
timing.

~~~
RidingPegasus
At the same moment the President is sitting down with Xi discussing trade
government agents are making moves to arrest an incredibly high profile
Chinese figure and everyone seems to think it's a coincidence?

China has an extensive history of politically motivated trials when there is
foreign relation disputes between countries. They barely hide it. What's
interesting here is the US doing the same thing back to them.

~~~
sonnyblarney
I don't believe the US is doing it, essentially I'm doubting the specific
facts you presented i.e. a warrant since Aug but no arrest until now, for
political reasons.

One of the reasons I doubt this is because Trump does not control or direct
these orgs - they are not highly politicized.

And also ... why would the US create some kind of warrant/indictment to _not_
have her grabbed?

Maybe you are right, but I actually don't think any of it makes sense. Trump
gains nothing by having someone nabbed like that.

Chinese nabbing of Canadians I do however think is political.

------
joaomacp
This battle between the US and China for influence and control over the world
will be interesting. We all know the US are far from harmless in their foreign
policy. But still, between a US-centered world (which is still where we are in
the western world, maybe not economically, but culturally for sure) and a
China-centered one, I would choose the former by far.

This is still very much fiction, but there are many possibilities in the open.
With the US questioning the support of EU to NATO, and the EU wanting the
European Army, who knows where things will go (EU-China allying vs the US
being the fictional world war III scenario).

------
jiveturkey
canada had to have seen this coming.

~~~
tjpnz
Canada was fulfilling an extradition treaty it has with the United States. It
really had no say in the matter.

This should be of surprise to nobody.

~~~
xyzzy_plugh
No, Canada had a say. It's a card like any other. Comply with the treaty or
not. There's no clear answer. What happened here is clearly a choice officials
weighed in on.

