

Microsoft rips off Plurk - abraham
http://blog.plurk.com/2009/12/14/microsoft-rips-plurk/

======
amix
Being the co-founder and lead dev of Plurk I can tell you this sucks :-( But
we are looking at our legal options, thought legal war with Microsoft and
especially legal war at Microsoft in China would require a lot of resources.

I think this will become a major concern for all startups that are doing lots
of client-side stuff. If people have determination they can copy your code
(even if all your code is obfuscated, which Plurk's is). And I don't know what
the solution is - other than stronger IP laws in emerging countries.

~~~
mikeryan
Look I doubt anyone very high up at MS knows of this and when they do you
might be able to get some scratch out of this.

They're really going to have 3 ways to deal with this.

1\. pull down the existing site while they retool. 2\. Pay you a licensing fee
while the rewrite from scratch. 3\. Do nothing and get a ton of bad press

See if you can get 1 or 2 and maybe make some money off the deal.

~~~
jf
I just started working for Microsoft so that I can be a voice inside the
company for startups. I'm forwarding this thread to my legal contact.

~~~
eob
Was that really the prime motivator in joining MS? How do you mean "be a voice
for startups"? Cool.

People usually cite this reasoning for joining the government -- an
organization whose mandate is toward the greater good of its people, but I've
never heard it applied toward a corporate entity, whose mandate is solely
profit.

Would you mind posting a bit more about your motivations and thinking? I would
really like to hear.

~~~
clemesha
Here's some more info: [http://jf.posterous.com/after-5-years-of-using-linux-
and-mac...](http://jf.posterous.com/after-5-years-of-using-linux-and-mac-os-x-
ive)

~~~
abossy
Joel sounds like he's replacing Don Dodge.

~~~
jf
I was not hired to replace Don Dodge. I was hired because the person who
previously held my role moved internally.

I actually don't know much about Don Dodge - I haven't met him yet. All that I
know is that he is well liked and respected.

I can only hope to earn a similar level of respect from the startup community.

~~~
thefool
were you hired, or were you moved internally?

Its cool that they have someone devoted to worrying about these issues.

~~~
jf
I was hired: <http://www.linkedin.com/in/joelfranusic>

------
credo
Microsoft should be held accountable for this, but assuming the blog is
correct, I'm assuming that the deliberate ripoff (described on plurk's blog)
wasn't a high-level Redmond decision.It was probably a decision taken at the
junior management levelin Microsoft, China.

It will be interesting to see Microsoft's response, but suspending the MSN
club service is probably the best immediate response, if plurk's blog is
correct.

~~~
davepeck
Precisely. This was a junior dev somewhere far away from Redmond making a
terrible mistake. It's about to get thrown up to the highest level, and I can
pretty much guarantee you that MSFT takes the site down.

~~~
dangrossman
It wasn't even that. It was a third party contractor hired by the Chinese
company Microsoft partnered with to create "MSN China". So this was beyond
just a hierarchical separation within the company, it was several degrees
separated from the company itself. Only through contract is this even owned by
Microsoft.

------
vitobcn
At this point, Microsoft issued a press release and took the site down while
investigating. PR:
[http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2009/dec09/12-14Sta...](http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2009/dec09/12-14Statement.mspx)

~~~
jrnkntl
Basically they just subcontracted the whole MSN Juku thing and nobody at MS
ever had a real look into it or didn't know about Plurk?

~~~
ironfrost
Plurk is blocked in China, so it's not so surprising that staff at MSN China
don't recognise its UI.

------
moeffju
The JS code was obviously unpacked/prettified. All internal vars have
shortnames like B, C, D, etc. Everything that interacts with the outside has
long names, as in the minified plurk code.

Astonishing.

------
kogir
I'm speculating, but I'd guess this was the fault of poor management of an
external contractor or partner. We don't know for sure who actually developed
the code, just who's hosting it. It's not like similar things haven't happened
before:

[http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/11/microsoft-
pull...](http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/11/microsoft-pulls-
windows-7-tool-after-gpl-violation-claims.ars)

I'd personally never heard of Plurk until now, and wouldn't have known myself
that a contractor had ripped it off had I commissioned the work.

It's still an egregious violation, but I doubt this will even need to go to
trial. Microsoft stands to gain little from alienating startups in this
manner. If it comes to it, I'm sure aggressively shaming them publicly will be
far cheaper than suing and eventually as effective.

------
prawn
No surprises here - knew as soon as I saw the story that it was going to be
something created by a contracted third-party and that Microsoft/MSN would not
have recognised it as a rip-off.

"According to a source familiar with the situation, the Juku application was
created for MSN China, which is a joint venture between Microsoft and a
Chinese company. However, the source says the application was not designed by
Microsoft or the joint venture, but rather by a third-party Chinese vendor
hired for the task."

<http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10415298-56.html>

------
ideamonk
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft>

Plurk should sue and win. If M$ could have had issues over phonetically
rhyming domain name and take the kid to court, why not plurk taking microsoft
into court for something serious. You just can't excuse yourself by saying
someone in my company's xyz office is responsible.

~~~
nsoonhui
The problem is that the case might have to be heard in China, whose judiciary
system is not something that I can trust.

------
johnrob
Interesting how javascript is turning source code theft into copyright
infringement (a civil matter), when traditionally it would be trade secret
theft (a criminal matter).

~~~
falsestprophet
View > Page Source does not a trade secret make

~~~
falsestprophet
In general, there are three factors that characterize a trade secret:

    
    
        * is not generally known to the public;
        * confers some sort of economic benefit on its holder
        (where this benefit must derive specifically from its not
        being generally known, not just from the value of the 
        information itself);
        * is the subject of reasonable efforts to maintain its secrecy.
    

Javascript code fails all three tests

------
phreanix
Incredible, I guess in their culture this is ok (or has become so commonplace
as to be ok), but shouldn't Microsoft have some sort of measures against it in
their own workplaces?

~~~
axod
By "their culture' do you mean China, or Microsoft?

I really don't think for example Google China would do this.

~~~
potatolicious
As a Chinese guy, I have to say that the above comment is generally correct -
there is fundamentally a different awareness of the concept of IP in Asia.

More frankly, this concept doesn't really exist.

It's not that the culture is more tolerant of ripping others off, but rather
that when it comes to creative works, it's not _seen_ as ripping off. Being
able to take, adapt, and re-release the work of others, even for-profit, is a
matter of course for the majority of the population. Many are not even aware
of the moral issues surrounding it, and as far as they are concerned, none
exists.

In all likelihood this wasn't so much a team under pressure and stealing out
of desperation - in all likelihood someone just _did_ it without very much
thought... and it flew under the radar of those who know better.

~~~
gaius
_More frankly, this concept doesn't really exist._

That's generally true of the Internet tho'. So many photographers I know have
had someone rip off their galleries, the usual excuse is just "I found it".

------
joubert
[http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10415298-56.html?tag=newsE...](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10415298-56.html?tag=newsEditorsPicksArea.0)

------
ratsbane
This reminds me of the Kayak/Bing Travel issue from July and similar incidents
before that. It's easy enough to blame some contractors at a distant outpost
but the frequency with which these things happen around Microsoft certainly
leads to the conclusion that they are bad actors and poor citizens.

~~~
likpok
Kayak/Bing Travel wasn't Microsoft, IIRC. They acquired another company who
copied the look and feel of Kayak.

~~~
ratsbane
Farecast had a very different UI when MS bought them. The transition to the
copy of the Kayak UI happened well after Kayak rolled theirs out and also well
after MS bought Farecast.

The scenario/timeline you outline above is reasonable enough to assume - as is
the idea that, as Farecast came out before Kayak, that Kayak was actually
copying Farecast. What actually happened though is different. Farecast had a
completely different model - they were banking on their ability to forecast
whether or not you were likely to get a cheaper fare for the same route if you
waited. Their original UI was based around that idea and it didn't go over
incredibly well. After the Microsoft purchase and before the launch of Bing
Travel they did a major redesign and got rid of most of the old Farecast. The
old Farecast price predictor idea is reduced to one line at the top of the
flights list on the page center.

I wrote about this and posted to HN shortly after Bing Travel went live and
because of that I've been introduced to more information about the whole
situation than I had when I originally brought it up. In a nutshell, the
Microsoft team blatantly copied Kayak's UI and has pretty much gotten away
with it.

------
barredo
Offtopic: Is really Plurk #1 microblogging service in Asia?

~~~
barredo
Didn't remember it was greatfirewalled in China:
<http://blog.plurk.com/2009/04/27/china-bans-plurk/>

------
awa
They have taken down the site and are investigating the incident. The blame
apparently lies with a third party vendor contracted for the job.
<http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10415483-56.html>

------
geedee77
Whilst this really does suck, I think it's valid to mention here that
Microsoft have now said that the coding was 'done' by a 3rd party developer so
all the comments that MS have done this are no longer valid.

Having said that though, someones head should roll at MS for not checking this
out properly before go-live and I'm pretty certain MS themselves are ultra
embarrassed and will try to solve this as soon as possible.

I hope that the Plurk guys get something worthwhile out of this ... maybe even
more than the copious amounts of free advertising they're currently seeing.

------
est
1\. Plurk is blocked in China

3\. MSN.cn outsourced the microblogging to an independent vendor.

------
jot
MS seem to be doing this quite a bit. Remember Bing copying Kayak back in
June: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=674123>

------
pyre
Plurk's blog page doesn't like being viewed at 1024x768 in Chromium... the
left sidebar cut-off by the left side of my screen and the top-right Plurk
logo is cut-off by the blog post.

------
joblessjunkie
Chinese software piracy: if you can't beat it, join it.

------
mattiss
This is incredible. Have there been any other documented cases where a
MSFT,GOOG,etc. has been caught stealing code red handed?

------
_pius
Stunning.

------
extofer
why doesn't this surprise me

------
figital
If you're going to worry about that you should have obfuscated your junk.

~~~
axod
Read the article. They did.

~~~
figital
I just re-read the article. If you really squint you might be able to assume
that their code was scrambled in some way (if that's what "not compiled"
means). Otherwise if you're trying to gain (well deserved) sympathy for
something like this then the deobfuscation process is probably the most
important part of the story. Did MS then rescramble the code? I'd want to know
that as well.

~~~
pavs
You are more concerned about obfuscation of code than the fact that a major
software developer ripped of someone's code, is a little troubling.

Whether he obfuscation code or not has absolutely zero importance in this
context.

~~~
figital
Of course it has context if this is being presented as a legal issue. The
original article doesn't really mention it (although it's easier to assume now
with the hindsight of a complete comment thread). I believe you are "even more
guilty" if you de-obfuscate someone's code, then copy and republish/reuse.

~~~
dandelany
There is no such thing as "more guilty". You are or you aren't.

~~~
scott_s
It indicates intent and state of mind. "More guilty" is just an expression
that means "more evidence for guilt."

~~~
dandelany
OK - I can see what you mean. However, I still disagree. De-obfuscation does
not provide more evidence that infringement occurred, it simply implies that
whoever did it likely knew they should not be doing it, which has (I believe)
absolutely no legal implication.

------
jonmc12
Not condoning MS, but does anyone else find it ironic that a chinese company
is accusing MS of piracy?

~~~
potatolicious
Not condoning the crime, but does anyone else find it ironic that a black guy
is accusing someone of robbery?

Yes, because ignorant stereotyping is fun! Remember kids, it's not racism if
it's not targeted at a member of the List Of Races We Should Be Sensitive
About!

~~~
jonmc12
uhh.. its not stereotyping - comment was directed at a government policy that
has fostered piracy at all levels in China. The comment is a characterization
of policy, not a characterization of people.

------
voyagerfan5761
I can't say I'm surprised that Microsoft has stolen yet another idea, but I am
astonished that they didn't go to more effort to obfuscate that fact. I'm
publicizing this through my networks. More people need to know that the 's' in
'Microsoft' is really a '$'.

~~~
kyro
I've always found the use of $ when referring to Microsoft to be really really
childish, and weird when I see people here, who are presumably mature adults,
doing the same.

