
What happens to tech workers when their skills become obsolete? - seagullz
https://qz.com/work/1702462/what-happens-to-tech-workers-when-their-skills-become-obsolete/
======
codesushi42
Flash was one of the first tools I ever started programming for. Today I work
in AI.

This article is a thinly veiled advertisement for bootcamps, spouting this
nonsense:

 _The “learning-by-doing” approach in the Flash workers’ scenario highlights
the value of coding schools and boot camps designed to teach students in-
demand skills in as little as eight weeks. And whereas traditional educational
environments tend to view their curriculum as having an end date (generally
aligned with their students’ graduation), Lambda School co-founder Austen
Allred envisions students coming back to his coding school every eight years
or so to learn new skills._

No. What will give you longevity is a degree in CS. Frameworks and
technologies change, but CS concepts stay consistent.

If you have a good grounding in CS, you have longevity. Couple that with a
good math background, and then you have even more possibilities.

Bootcamps are rubbish in the long term. They try to lure you in with quick
results from little time investment by teaching you how to hack with the hip
framework of the week.

I have been there, done that, having gone to a polytechnic school where I
learned Flash + web dev. I later made the switch to a university to study CS.
One of the best decisions I ever made.

Don't fall for the trap of instant gratification. Learn CS (and math) with a
formal education, and you will thank yourself years from now.

~~~
langitbiru
I agree with your statement: "If you have a good grounding in CS, you have
longevity. Couple that with a good math background, and then you have even
more possibilities."

But I disagree with your other statement: "Learn CS (and math) with a formal
education".

You can learn CS from internet.

[https://github.com/ossu/computer-science](https://github.com/ossu/computer-
science) [https://teachyourselfcs.com/](https://teachyourselfcs.com/)

In the first link, it is said you need roughly 2 years to master core CS.

Actually, I have a wild fantasy. I build a startup like Lambda School but it
is not supervised. So I give money to motivated students. This money cover
their living cost for 2 or 3 years, internet, and a decent laptop. They have
to spend 10 hours per day, 6 days per week to learn CS. After finishing the
study, they can repay back my money with some interest (capped to a number)
only if they find a proper job. If they can not find a proper job for 5 years,
the debt is forgiven. But this is just my wild fantasy. :)

~~~
ChuckNorris89
_> I agree with your statement: "If you have a good grounding in CS, you have
longevity. Couple that with a good math background, and then you have even
more possibilities."_

Maybe in the US or SV but in Europe nobody outside research, academia and
archaic engineering companies where a degree is a form of signaling, care
about your degrees.

In tech here, unless you have x years experience in the latest tech(.net,
typescript, Node, etc.) you ain't getting any job regardless of your CS
degree.

Edit: not sure why I'm being downvoted, I'm only expressing my experience on
the market here in Europe as a engineer with 6 years of C&C++ experience, with
BS in CS and a MS in Embedded systems, and web shops have declined to
interview me citing I don't have enough experience with the latest web
languages and frameworks. Perhaps people feel that ageism and obsolescence
won't happen to them.

~~~
pjmlp
I guess I only worked for archaic engineering companies then.

Outside a couple of startups with dubious prognostic of success, I never saw a
CV going through HR for IT department without having higher education degree,
with the exception of technical students.

And in most European countries one doesn't get to sign Engineer on formal
documents (from law point of view) without the proper tile certification.

~~~
ido
I've worked in lots of places where having a degree was not a requirement to
get hired but certainly _a lot_ (especially bigger) companies value an
education. I would say that the more accurate statement is that enough
valuable work-experience can alleviate the need for a degree but degrees are
far from worthless.

~~~
collyw
Some of the best as well as some of the worst developers I have worked with
had no formal CS education. (The worst ones got in through biology ->
bioinformatics, the best ones through gaming and setting up networks and
general enthusiasm for the subject).

------
tracker1
I am self taught. Never went to a bootcamp or any schooling past High School.
I fell into it starting out doing design work... What has it meant over the
past couple decades? A lot of constant reading and learning. It never stops. I
spend an average of 2 hours a day reading and learning, every day. Some I tuck
away, some I explore. In the end, I've seen things shift multiple times.

When Flash was at it's peak, I worked in eLearning writing simulations in
flash, and supporting backends in VB/VB.Net, some C# and ASP/ASP.Net with SQL.
From there, much more web/js, and various other database backends (cassandra,
mongo, redis, etc). Currently working with C# and Node.js in web apps still.
Learning Rust.

In the end, progress doesn't stop and wait for you. I tend to push for things
faster than my workplaces want to adopt. In the end, it's a struggle, and it
doesn't end. I will continue to do so until I die. I have absolutely no plans
to retire.

Formal CS knowledge and education can help. Understanding and learning
multiple platforms and languages helps more. If you want to settle in a rest
on your laurels you won't last forever. You're best off understanding various
ideas, workflows and patterns and how to recognize when one is a better fit. I
have my preferences but am under no illusions that it will stay the same.

In the end, you have to commit to spending time each month/year learning and
working on new things. It's the only way to keep up or get ahead.

------
hannibalhorn
> Lambda School co-founder Austen Allred envisions students coming back to his
> coding school every eight years or so to learn new skills.

Eh... While that might be a good story to sell to his investors, most anybody
worth their salt won't need to go back to a "bootcamp coding school" every 8
years to learn a new language.

~~~
track_me_now
you're right - it's kinda funny that boot camps are promoted because
"university is a terrible way to learn programming", but they then try and
sell boot camps as an effective way to learn the framework de jour.

Maybe if you finished an undergrad you'd be well equipped to stay on top of an
ever-changing tech landscape?

~~~
lonelappde
What is magical about undergrad that makes it exactly the correct amount of
time to spend in school?

~~~
krapht
It's exactly difficult enough and requires enough work that for many people
it's an effective sorting tool for general intelligence and work ethic.

If bootcamps take off it will be because they replace this function of
university.

------
esotericn
I'll take the "no true scotsman".

If you know how to program, that skill does not simply "go obsolete".

The sort of "skill" that this article is talking about seems to be on par with
like, the time I thought I knew how to write C as a teenager.

The local market going to shit, you developing medical issues, ageism, etc are
all far more of a worry than "oops, I've been doing QBASIC for 10 yea.....[NO
CARRIER]"

------
codingdave
Flash is hardly the only tech to have become obsolete. Anyone who has been
around this industry more than a decade can list off multiple technologies we
don't work with anymore.

The article was right that ongoing learning is the key. And while formal
higher education is not for everyone, it does well at teaching people new
techniques for learning and research. It isn't the only path, especially in
today's reality. Its current failings are one reason that bootcamps exist...

But the idea that people are going to let their skills stagnate for 8 years,
then return to a bootcamp to get the latest tech... Sorry, but that is simply
absurd.

~~~
tracker1
Completely agree... I don't even remember enough Perl or Ruby to be effective
with it at all. It all changes over time. I do miss parts of Flash/Flex
though.

~~~
collyw
I still pull Perl out when I get a chance.

Its nice for small scripts that people might use bash for. I do Python most of
the time, but Perl's syntactic sugar makes it so much nicer for something like
looking up a set of files matching a regex, moving and renaming them.

------
jld
I was Flash developer from 2006-2010. Flash used ActionScript which is/was
based on the ECMAScript standard.

Since then, I develop primarily in Javascript, based on the ECMAScript
standard.

Looking back, I don't even think anyone could find the seam in my career.

~~~
dehrmann
This makes the article somewhat silly because the demand shifted over to JS,
HTML5, Canvas, etc., and because ActionScript is in the same family as
Javascript, people are already halfway there. It was very evolutionary.

~~~
j45
To be polite, the article shows how little they understand the topic they are
writing about.

------
kissgyorgy
If your skills become obsolete, you are not a tech worker. The only thing you
should have accepted is that this is a fast moving industry and you should
learn new technologies all the time. It's just the nature of it.

------
ilaksh
Reminds me of the HiSOFT guy who used to build assemblers and compilers etc.
for ZX Spectrum, back in 1980, and is still programming. I thought it was
interesting to contrast that older work with his current line of work.

[http://www.hisoft.co.uk/](http://www.hisoft.co.uk/)

"HiSOFT has been in existence since 1980, founded by David Link and Dave
Nutkins.

Originally we created software for the NASCOM 1 kit-built microcomputer but
swiftly moved on to the ZX Spectrum, for which we created many esoteric items
such as HiSOFT Devpac, HiSOFT C, HiSOFT BASIC, HiSOFT Pascal, UltraKit, Colt
and much more.

After great success with the various incarnations of the Spectrum we ported
our core titles (Devpac, C++ and Pascal) to many other Z80-based computers;
Tatung Einstein, Newbrain, Memotech 512, Amstrad CPC& PCW, Elan Enterprise and
more!

'Twas a lot of fun and, undoubtedly, this list will stir as much excitement in
some people as David's favourite band since 1971, Genesis, do in him!

After the Z80 processor began to flag (shame!), we moved on to the 68000 which
meant moving stuff over to the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga. This, along with
many hardware projects (such as Megalosound, Replay 16, Clarity 16, Squirrel
SCSI, VideoMaster etc.) kept us going through the 90s until, reluctantly, we
were forced to take the PC seriously.

Having forged a close relationship with MAXON Computer in Germany throughout
the Amiga and Atari years, it was natural for us to take on the UK mantle for
their flagship product, CINEMA 4D, an exciting and now rather important 3D
product.

HiSOFT promoted, distributed and sold CINEMA 4D from 1997 until 2001, at which
point David Link formed MAXON Computer Ltd and moved all things CINEMA 4D
under the MAXON umbrella. David worked at MAXON UK as CEO until resigning for
personal reasons in early 2003.

David Link continues to work at HiSOFT, as you will see from this website,
while also trying to earn some money running the odd pub, café and seaside
bar/restaurant/guest house!"

~~~
teddyh
For an older person who was a programmer long ago, it’s completely normal for
that person to still be programming. It’s just that for a programmer, it’s
unusual for that person to be old. Don’t confuse the two concepts.

~~~
ilaksh
I'm not confusing anything. I am 41 myself and have been programming for a
long time myself. I don't think its unusual for him to still be programming.

I just thought it was a good example of how people evolve. And also
interesting that they used to make development tools and now does websites. As
well as the rest of the career is just an interesting evolution.

~~~
teddyh
> _I don 't think its unusual for him to still be programming._

But since essentially all other descriptions of older programmers make that
point (and it’s the conventional, however incorrect, wisdom that older
programmers stop programming, similar to sports). When you simply describe an
older programmer without making any other point explicit, one must assume that
that’s what you meant to say.

------
tsycho
Flash developers were fine since the tech market was still expanding rapidly,
so they could learn new skills. What happens when the market is no longer
growing, and workers become obsolete since their job is automated away?

~~~
a3n
If a _person_ truly becomes unemployable in their career, for whatever reason,
then they do something else.

I'm driving a semi truck.

~~~
lonelappde
Truck driver is a dying industry. Jobs are scarcer every day.

~~~
a3n
That may or may not be true. The two threats are a possible recession, which
is near, somewhat predictable and temporary by definition. And automation,
which is "real soon now," and permanent whenever it happens.

In the mean time, trucking is hiring.

Not that I would recommend it to most people, it's just what I did when I
realized I wouldn't be working in software anymore. I ended up liking it.

~~~
biohax2015
That's a pretty interesting transition. Got a link to your story?

~~~
a3n
Sorry, no. Overly simple summary: I was a B player, I failed to stay relevant,
and I got old.

------
mangecoeur
What do you think Soylent is made of? Obsolete tech workers are a valuable
source of protein! :P

------
john_horton
I'm one of the authors of the original paper the article is based on. Here's a
link to the actual research: [https://www.john-joseph-
horton.com/papers/schumpeter.pdf](https://www.john-joseph-
horton.com/papers/schumpeter.pdf)

------
thorwasdfasdf
I know one flash programmer who suddenly found herself without a job and in a
tough situation. She had to completely learn a new skillset: HTML5 and
javascript and the Front end web. It took a whole year for her to get up to
speed and get a new job.

To prevent this from happening to me, I like to keep an eye on which
technologies and programming languages are in highest demand, and which
direction they're moving in terms of job demand. So, I created this app that
measure programming language demand based on job postings and analyzes on a
city by city basis, cross-referencing with salaries posted:
[https://skilldime.com/](https://skilldime.com/)

~~~
enjoyyourlife
>HTML5 and javascript and the Front end web. It took a whole year for her to
get up to speed and get a new job.

It took her a _year_ to learn HTML and Javascript?

------
Clubber
Let's see. Commodore Basic, Borland Pascal, Borland C++, MS Access,
Delphi/Oracle, Java/MUMPS (don't ask), C#/.Net/MSSQL, C#/Net Core, Postgres.
Those are the big chunks, Postgres being the newest. Across DOS, Windows,
Solaris, HPUX and Linux. I get bored with stuff after a few years and just
want to build systems with something different. I personally don't go for the
new hotness, I go for the hotness that has been around a while.

This was the same discussion around 2001. You had people who got into tech for
the money and people who just like it. Many people who did it for the money
didn't survive past the dot bomb in 2001.

------
infosecdude64
One thing I've asked just about everyone who I've managed lately is if they
have a job or a career? Folks with jobs normally have few skills that they do
9 - 5 Mon - Fri. They don't learn new skills, nor take on different work, they
just come in do what's asked then leave. These are the folks who have the most
problems when there is a shift in tech and some stack become obsolete. Folks
with a career know they have to stay current in their skills as well as
anticipate what coming down the pipe in their field.

This is more of an observation than a criticism, btw.

------
cosmodisk
The article itself is a bit weak and,as suggested by others,looks like an ad
for a bootcamp. One of the reasons why tech workers had little to no problem
to change the course while they started seeing that their skillset is dated is
because it takes years to happen.For instance someone comes up with some new
language called SnakeScript and it starts taking over the world,while at the
same time reducing the number of Python jobs.Well those python devs would
simply start learning SnakeScript and eventually completely transition to it.

------
i_am_proteus
Primer (2004) said it best:

You know what they do with engineers when they turn 40? They take them out and
shoot them.

~~~
lonelappde
It's not true though. It's based on a misunderstanding of the mathematics of
an exponentially growing industry.

~~~
draw_down
There is truth to it.

~~~
collyw
As some that is 44, I think older devs just get sick of the industry.

The constant churn while valuing little of the things I feel that I am
actually skilled at - good code design, keeping things as simple as possible
but no simpler. Instead we need experience trendy framework of the month, and
interviews on algorithms that you will never need in your job. Oh, and please
spend the weekend completing our pointless technical test before you get to
speak to anyone technical about the job we want to interview you for.

~~~
scarface74
Cry me river.

I’m 45 and have had to abandon framework, languages, operating systems for
close to 35 years.

We get paid an above average wage and all we have to do is watch a few videos
and read a little bit.

I’m not sitting her le crying that my knowledge of 65C02 assembly is obsolete
or that I had to learn the intricacies of DEC VAX and Stratus VOS over 20
years ago.

~~~
collyw
If that's what floats your boat go for it. I am bored of the pointless churn.
If it was actually useful I would be far more enthusiastic. I am currently
working on a React frontend to our app. It was supposed to make things s
faster and easier, but the reality is it just adds more layers of unnecessary
complexity.

I want to solve problems efficiently, not chase fads.

------
_bxg1
When I was in college I lamented the fact that my school didn't teach any
"modern" technologies. Forget mobile or web; we even used Java Swing at one
point (this was 2013!). Now I appreciate how much focus they placed on
fundamentals instead of literally anything else. I couldn't sign up for a
class on iOS development like you can at some other institutions, but the
things I learned were the things that won't go away.

------
whatever_dude
Two things:

Flash is not the first tech to die and it won't be the last. Hell, I spent
almost a decade of my career focused in Flash dev... and even when I was
learning Flash and ActionScript there were 3 or 4 main platforms I used to
work with that I had already abandoned. This is a constant.

Also. Even a long time after Flash was already on the way out, the demand for
good Flash devs was absurd, made worse because it wasn't a "hot" platform
anymore. I remember we had a Flash project that needed to be maintained at the
company I was working at and we needed to hire an external developer to do it.
A lucky guy with the skills ended up being paid top dollar for a super easy
job for years because it seemed no one else could do it. He was smart and kept
his skills up to date, so he had no problem getting out of that scene later,
but he surely used this "outdated" knowledge to his advantage. This also
happens all the time.

------
fencepost
Programming language knowledge _overlaps_ with skills in that different
languages affect the ways you think about problems, but knowledge, skills and
intelligence are different things.

Only having knowledge is probably the hardest place to be, and those are the
least desired staff ("paper $CERTIFICATION"), but if you have the others then
knowledge is (arguably) the easiest thing to add.

If you have programming skills then you can extend from that base into front
end, back end, etc. It's going to be harder to jump to sales, because you
don't have the skills _or_ the knowledge. Similarly if you've only ever done
sales, or accounting, or cooking, or whatever then it'll be harder to develop
the skills and knowledge for programming.

------
Railsify
This reinforces what I tell new devs: "Don't rest on your laurels". You have
to always be learning new languages and technologies, developing new hobbies
and interests. A friend of mine constantly trots out her masters degree; she
works at a greenhouse and spends most of the time planting and weeding, she
loves it and seems happy, but the fact that she earned the masters then
stopped learning marketable skills scares me.

------
logotype
Started with web, was impressed by what flash could do and learned that.
Worked in advertising and we really pushed Flash to the limit (FWA, etc). I
mean actual Flash apps, close to the structure of today’s React apps. Software
3D back then, but Stage3D arrived too late. Adobe AIR had potential but Adobe
didn’t push enough for this tech. Then I went back to web app development and
today I work at an investment bank making trading apps.

------
j45
In the context of this article choosing to focus on Flash..

Flash uses actionscript.. Which is ecmascript, which today we know as
Javascript.

It's not a stretch to imagine having Flash skills is one thing but building
digital experiences in js, or js friendly/inspired syntaxes likely has plenty
of transferable skills.

In another way of looking at it, today's js developers share some kinship with
actions riot developers.

------
bryanrasmussen
I learned new skills (or more accurately improved my minor skills to become
major ones) and make more money now. I wouldn't even say my skills became
obsolete, I just needed to add other skills to them that I wasn't eager to add
- so I found another way. I've done that twice now - hopefully I can do it a
third.

~~~
pm90
Good experience and perspective + a curiosity to learn == lots of fun + lots
of money.

I came into CS expecting a cushy job which was well paid. What I found was a
challenging job that placed extraordinary premium on agility and the capacity
to build useful products. I love being a "tech worker".

------
floki999
They spend too much time on HN.

------
reportgunner
I can't understand which part of this article was upvoted. There is very
little information in it and it doesn't answer the question it is asking in
the title.

------
tiben_
Does anybody knows the artist who made the "slamm" phone poster on the article
illustration ? or where can i find it ? I really like it.

~~~
punchclockhero
The artist is Deborah Azzopardi
([https://deborahazzopardi.co.uk/](https://deborahazzopardi.co.uk/))

~~~
tiben_
Thank you very much

------
thewileyone
What happens to tech workers when their skills become obsolete?

1\. Learn new skills

2\. Move into management

3\. Leave the industry

------
mjcohen
I used to be quite good with 026 and 029. Probably not much demand now.

------
throwaway146
Try being a Java developer in a modern world.

In my non-Bay Area city, the majority of jobs are Node or RoR. Been struggling
to find a job, especially since Java is synonymous with big data, which I have
no experience in. No Spark? Sorry. No ML? Next! Ageism in tech is real.

~~~
badpun
> Java is synonymous with big data

Most Java jobs are not big data. There may be a skew in the openings, as
people with java/scala big data skills are hard to get, but there are probably
millions of people doing non-big data Java development right now, and it's not
going to change.

~~~
throwaway146
Sadly, that is not the case where I live. Mostly new companies, where the Java
stack is not prevalent. No jobs to apply to, no one willing to even look at
someone with experience in stacks other than their own. Not everyone lives in
SF.

~~~
badpun
That's not SF situation. Probably 90%+ of boring big corps have millions and
millions of lines of Java code to maintain and develop further. You just need
to be in a city big enough to have some of those big companies. At least in
Poland, it's hard to hire a generic senior Java dev.

One possible explanation for what you're seeing (except not being in a right
kind of city) is that maybe the offshoring has hit the US enough to affect the
Java market? There tens/hundreds of thousands of Java developers working in
Poland are doing offshore development for US/global corporations. The whole
Central/Eastern Europe is like that.

------
chaseha
Well, the easy answer is to go work for IT in a non-tech industry shop

------
dutchrapley
They go work for a mid-sized insurance company in the midwest.

~~~
killjoywashere
Or government! Uncle Sam is still hiring people to write MUMPS and VMS.

------
rakamotog
They become managers?

~~~
jethro_tell
That could use a 9mo boot camp. Just because you're good at code and even
manage a project with some tech parts doesn't mean you'll be a great manager.
Not usually from aptitude but because the thinking akillset is often
different. It becomes less about how to solve a problem and more about should
you solve the problem.

~~~
ry_ry
Realistically for companies rolling their own managers, it should be a gradual
multi-year process.

Initially mentoring less experienced developers, then into running a small
team, scaling up the managerial aspects and learning to let go of the code,
hire great people and trust them to deliver over time.

The modern industry moves faster than that, new roles are machine gunned into
our inboxes, we are told you can't stand still or you're hurting your own
career.

Those aren't mutually exclusive situations, but it's certainly made more
difficult by their orthogonality.

------
wfbarks
They evolve into birds and fly away outside

------
nicky19890202
Nothing is impossible.

~~~
jethro_tell
Not on zombocom

~~~
self_awareness
The only limit is yourself

------
NotSammyHagar
They learn new skill. Or suffer and switch political parties.

------
sparrc
tldr: highly educated and well-off engineers are able to adapt.

~~~
neogodless
The article alludes to education, but doesn't connect any dots. I'm not sure
where "well-off" is coming from, though.

~~~
LanceH
If you are paycheck to paycheck, the immediacy of needing work can drive you
to do something else. Then it just gets harder and harder to get back into the
industry.

~~~
neogodless
That's almost certainly a valid point. I just don't believe the article really
addressed it, so it's an inaccurate summary above.

