
Rescue Forensics (YC W15) Helps Law Enforcement Find Victims of Sex Trafficking - ryandalton
http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/20/software-eats-sex-trafficking-ycs-rescue-forensics-aids-law-enforcement-in-finding-victims/
======
staunch
What so few people realize about the NSA spying debates is that the issues
will extend into everything.

This private company is building a mass surveillance database to track people.
They're scraping and archiving what used to be considered anonymous postings.
Their current goal is to go after sex trafficking, but they could easily
expand into spying on people for any reason.

They're not the government, so I think they have a strong right to do this,
but don't let cause of "the children" confuse the issue. This is a new kind of
spying, unlike anything that has existed in the history of American society.

Just imagine how much crime we could stop if local police had full access
email, phone, and social networking data. There's no question that we could
save thousands of children per year. You would have to be a monster or a
terrorist not to consent to having your data searched.

~~~
ryandalton
I think we can distinguish ourselves from spies because we only collect open
source intelligence - meaning publicly available records. Technology is like a
knife. It can be used to create or destroy, can be used by a surgeon for good
or for a killer for evil. The same is true for big data technologies. They can
be used for mass surveillance and violation of civil liberties or for recovery
of trafficked children. We're not violating anyone's civil liberties or right
to privacy.

~~~
angersock
Let's look through some of the things you claim, shall we?

 _Images can be cross referenced against other ads to detect hidden
relationships._

 _Evidence artifacts can be collected and introduced during criminal
proceedings._

 _Rescue Forensics collects millions of records for anti-trafficking
investigations and prosecution._

 _Search by phone number, text, or images, and filter by location, age, and
date ranges._

 _Hidden phone numbers are unmasked so human traffickers can’t hide their
victims online._

 _Intelligence from across the world can be searched in one central location._

 _Images can be cross-referenced against the rest of the web to find profiles
and social media accounts._

 _Our intuitive interface allows you to target the intelligence you need on
all your devices._

Yeah. So, you're straight-up building a massive blackmail ledger, without a
stated business model other than "We're helping the police save the
children!".

One of my favorites, also from your front page:

 _STOP SENDING SUBPOENAS

Our database contains millions of records of classified advertisements
representing up to two years of historical data. Stop waiting days or weeks to
get a subpoena response from a hosting site that may only offer a few months
of records. Find all the targeted intelligence you need right now._

Yeah, man, that whole due-process thing is a pain in the ass, isn't it? Better
to do the work for the .gov instead of making them follow their own laws.

~

I don't think it is a surprise to anyone who's been watching the trends lately
with regards to law enforcement in the US and the trends with data mining that
you are not receiving an unconditional pat on the back.

Frankly, companies like yours are part of the problem--even if you do offer
help in the small picture.

EDIT:

Bahahahahahaha, I love this one:

 _The user-generated information archived by Rescue Forensics is completely
unmodified and retrieval of this information is an automated process. We only
redact copyrighted material, such as company logos or other intellectual
property._

Yes, so, you've got protection for companies, but nothing against, say, a
deliberate smear campaign. Your platform looks like it doesn't do anything to
prevent, say, a bunch of jerks deliberately scattering fake evidence, and
you'll hoover it up all the same, I'm betting?

~~~
trhway
>We only redact copyrighted material, such as company logos or other
intellectual property.

>Yes, so, you've got protection for companies

No, this protection is in the other direction - of their own lower back _from_
the companies. They don't care about smaller fish which can't bite.

Anyway, all this bro-hah-hah piled upon them is pointless. They are just one
of many Palantir wannabes. There is no way they or others can be stopped. You
can't stop the wave. A new kind of society is upon us where everybody would be
able to know everything about everybody and thus information assymmetry power
(be it of corporations, governments or whomever) will be no more.

~~~
droopyEyelids
That seems like an enormous leap, from corporations knowing everything about
everyone, to all people knowing everything about everyone.

~~~
trhway
that is what was done by open source movement in software, and i hope the same
"open information" thing will happen too.

------
throwaway022015
I love the idealism, I really do, but I have to wonder under what criteria
this company was accepted into YC? Certainly there's money in law enforcement
tools, but there isn't much incentive for LE to pursue trafficked or underage
sex workers, nor are they hard to find.

The most common reason I've seen for my friends to be trapped in agencies or
abusive pimps has been immigration status, by far. And nobody is doing them
any favours by taking them in. LE hates the paperwork so much that a decent
way to get out of a pickup is to feign being an illegal alien.

Underage workers are similarly avoided. If you're 16-17 with no fixed address,
it's going to be a nightmare of social services for everyone involved before
you're spat back out onto the street. (I was arrested twice when underage.
Both times they let me go when they saw I was 17 and a ward of the state.)

I don't doubt that there's revenue here though, because LE just loves to do
stings. Mostly they're single moms or otherwise trapped by circumstance and
trying to make ends meet with a side gig. They're the ones who go quietly, who
plead out, who pump arrest records, etc.

Sex trafficking is an immigration/social services problem __far __more than it
is a law enforcement concern. Giving LE more tools to track us is going to
make things worse.

I supported myself with sex work when I was a self-sufficient and independent
from 15-19. Now I'm a software developer in my late 20's, but that's still my
community. I realy wonder if these founders ever actually asked any of us what
we thought about this idea before charging ahead?

Note: Throwaway acct. (And I mean throwaway. I'm in an incognito window I'm
about to close, with a /dev/random -generated password, and won't be watching
for replies. Please leave me alone.)

~~~
ryandalton
There actually is a good deal of money in law enforcement for this kind of
tool. Anti-trafficking efforts are becoming more and more of a priority at the
federal, state, and local levels. There is also a lot of demand for this
solution as demonstrated by our user base.

Federal grants are increasingly common, local and state multi-disicplinary
task forces are being established more and more frequently, and they need
solutions for dealing with these kind of problems.

Sex trafficking is rarely an immigration problem. According to the DOJ, 83% of
their cases deal with victims of sex trafficking who are U.S. citizens and
trafficked by U.S. citizens. The remaining 17% are foreign nationals. This is
a homegrown problem, generally.

~~~
MichaelGG
Do those sex trafficking numbers include consensual adults? What % of cases
are on actual trafficking? (Honest question, no snide intended.)

~~~
ryandalton
No, these cases only include instances where an adult is involved who is
forced, defrauded, or coerced into the commercial sex trade, or a child is
involved in a commercial sex act. It does not include prostitution
prosecutions.

~~~
MichaelGG
OK, my apologies.

------
prutschman
"The company itself doesn’t make any judgments about what might constitute
illegal trafficking behavior. That’s up to investigators to determine, as
there are adult women who want to do sex work and aren’t being trafficked."

I'm glad to see this at least get mentioned; there are people in bad
situations who need help, but too often well-meaning people are unfortunately
reluctant to listen to the people they think they're trying to help.

~~~
jholman
Yeah, I went and read their FAQ, and I'm struggling to see how this tool isn't
equally useful to target sex workers.

I'm perfectly willing (in my ignorance) to believe that sex trafficking is a
problem worth tackling (in scale, in urgency, etc). But I also (already)
believe that anti-sex-work laws act to oppress and victimize already-
marginalized women, with dubious benefit (without taking a side on whether
this effect is deliberate).

For example, in my jurisdiction (IANAL), although I understand that
prostitution itself is not illegal as such, the following things are illegal:

    
    
        * posting/negotiating prices openly
        * operating a place of business for prostitution (a "bawdy house")
        * living "off the avails"
    

This last law is supposed to allow the prosecution of pimps (yay!), but it
also means that sex workers cannot hire bodyguards or accountants. The second
law is presumably supposed to keep "decent" neighbourhoods "decent", but it
also results in more streetwalkers, and more liaisons in minimum-price hotels,
and so lowers safety.

It seems sort of obvious that the right direction is to have better laws, and
then enforce them. I'm not holding my breath.

And, to return to TFA, in the mean time, what stops LEAs from using Rescue
Forensics to pad their docket by harassing already-oppressed sex workers who
are not victims of trafficking, merely victims of being poor and desperate.

PS: I salute and hugely respect people tackling social justice problems, and I
want to emphasize that I'm not _condemning_ Rescue Forensics, I'm expressing a
_concern_.

~~~
ryandalton
Hey, thanks for the concern. We take this very seriously. We also didn't build
this in an echo chamber. I've worked for five years in this space and am very
familiar with concerns about sex workers, poverty, desparation, and
exploitation.

I can say with confidence that law enforcement, particularly human trafficking
investigators, are also sensitive to these distinctions, generally. This used
to not be the case, but a lot is changing and very quickly.

An example: An investigator I spoke to the other day said they used to be
called a "VICE" unit, but they changed their name to the "counter-exploitation
unit". This is similar to many agencies across the US and Canada.

We reserve the right to revoke a user's license if they are using our platform
to harass persons, but so far this has not been a problem. In fact, just the
opposite.

~~~
MichaelGG
Probably changed their name because "vice" obviously sounds like enforcing a
questionable moral code (while having fun), whereas "counter-exploitation
unit" sounds more important and serious.

Underage sex work and human trafficking was already illegal in Canada, but
they recently shut a lot legitimate sex workers down.

How are you actually auditing LE to make sure they're only targeting
trafficking/minors or other real offenses?

Edit: To be clear, how do we know this isn't a sham like drug laws? No drug
user I've ever known, even the ones that OD'd and died, ever benefitted at all
from drug laws. Quite the opposite in fact. So forgive us for being skeptical
about another morality law enforcement system that might have a similar damage
ratio.

Even the first question that comes to me: Is the sex market so bad that buyers
are interested in coerced workers? Sure, some people might be into underaged
(regardless of the cutoff), and I suppose some people might be into abusive
stuff they couldn't buy from willing participants. But does that make up the
majority even? Or is it really just a lot of bored, or ugly, or busy, or
curious, etc. etc. buyers?

More pointedly, where are your morals? Are you pushing for better laws,
despite that they might hurt business?

~~~
vdaniuk
>Are you pushing for better laws, despite that they might hurt business?

Come on now, they founded a for-profit startup and are raising money from the
VCs. The conflict of interest is obnoxiously obvious.

------
xkcd-sucks
A hooker-tracking database, which will be used to Save Exploited Children--
just like the NSA's products are used to to catch Bad Foreigners.

------
MichaelGG
The more I thought about this, the more bothering it potentially seems. Their
Twitter feed chats with a religious group, which may appear biased. Does the
company press for reform laws?

How would such a company be treated if it was looking for drug buyers and
sellers? Especially if such a company didn't encourage legalization but
appeared to stand with Christian groups? What steps are they taking to ensure
innocent people are _not_ being prosecuted with their tools? Going by current
laws is no moral compass.

Finally, if they or the anti trafficking groups want to be taken seriously,
provide real stats. This is from their Twitter account:

"39,000 escort ads were posted on the #Louisiana Backpage since July. How many
are sex trafficking victims?"

Well, I don't know, why don't you tell us? They've got big data and LE, but
they post leading questions like that with apparently no followup.

It's like saying X number of people OD on heroin. For any X we should figure
out A: if current legislation is helping or hurting that number, B: is
infringing on the rights and potentially destroying people's lives worth the
cost? I'm sure it feels great to save 100 people from OD'ing. Does that mean
it's OK to imprison millions?

I know this probably comes off making me look terrible. And I don't know
anything except this article and reading the company's Twitter account. But it
feels slightly off, as if I'm being convinced of a problem without seeing all
the numbers. Where're the calls for legalization and regulation? Maybe I'm
just too cynical.

------
MichaelGG
Didn't Craigslist throw a wrench in things by totally closing off "adult" ads,
to which LE had backdoor access?

And isn't the illegality in the states (like the "seizure" of RedBook) just
causing all sex work to go more underground?

~~~
AznHisoka
The biggest player is BackPage now. lots of shady stuff goes on there.

~~~
MichaelGG
How much of it is shady due to unreasonable laws? Does LE have a backdoor to
view Backpage information? Does Backpage refuse to respond to subpoenas?

Are sex buyers just gonna say "darn, I googled but didn't find anyone, oh
well"? Especially the ones that are looking to find underaged workers?

------
schimmy_changa
I don't mind the "software eats things" meme, but I think they probably should
have rethought this title........ (shrug)

------
ajju
I logged in just to say that you don't have to feel so disconnected from the
startups in SF. Although I don't go to many parties, if I met you at one, I
would consider it my good fortune and anything but a buzzkill. Most of my
friends probably share that opinion.

Are you guys a nonprofit or a company? I am not a big angel investor (I have
made one investment so far), but this sounds like something I would like to
invest in / donate to.

My email is aj at ridelabs dot com if you're interested.

~~~
ryandalton
Hey, when I made that comment I was being playful. She made it sound way more
serious than I made it. It is tough to talk about sex trafficking at a party
though!

~~~
ajju
Alright! Hope to see you at alumni demo day. I think your company will be
better off if you stay in the bay area instead of returning to Tennessee. I am
from Atlanta, started my company there, and miss it a lot, so I do identify
with your feelings.

------
porter
Gosh, there is no reason to be embarrassed about your mission. Your mission is
more inspiring than any other I've seen in the startup world. While all the
other 'cool' startups are doing things like "enabling people to watch other
people play video games all day", you guys are literally saving and changing
lives. And if it works you'll be doing it at scale. It's inspiring, it
matters, and you should be damn proud.

~~~
ryandalton
Hah Im not embarassed at all, I just am sensitive to bringing up such a dark
topic at social settings. Im happy to talk to anyone about our work anytime.
The comment I made was being playful - came out a bit more serious in the
article. Thanks so much for the encouragement.

------
bigmofo
Web sites can put a robots.txt that prohibits crawlers. Are violations of the
robots.txt a violation of the computer fraud and abuse act, which would
knowing operating a bit in violatoin a felony?

The content and images posted could also be copyrighted or such that they are
only for viewing in a browser and any other purpose would be a copyright
violation or at a minimum a violation of the terms and conditions of using the
site.

Companies don't like their content being made available elsewhere, and would
probably fight vigorously.

How much bandwidth would polling and copying the site take? Wouldn't the
companies notice it? Wouldn't they stop it?

Wouldn't most of these sites would want to work with the police to ensure that
there were no underage people offering sex for money or anybody of any age
being forced to work? Wouldn't most of these sites have an alert link for each
posting? People can probably ignore consensual adults making an illegal
business transaction, but probably not underage or forced prostitution.

If the software can recognize under age workers or people being forced to
work, wouldn't the sites welcome the software alerting them of such listing?
Would they be willing to pay for it?

------
anigbrowl
Related feature on Memex, a military-originated tool that does broad=spectrum
searches, metadata integration and so on.
[http://www.wsj.com/articles/sleuthing-search-engine-even-
bet...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/sleuthing-search-engine-even-better-than-
google-1423703464)

------
tzakrajs
I am not sure TechCrunch understands what "eats" means in the context of
"software eats _____."

------
vdaniuk
I wonder, what is going to happen when there is a 10x/100x revenue opportunity
in providing LE in US and other countries with data on other criminals,
including sex workers? Illegal aliens, drug users, vandalism? Will they become
fair game for Rescue Forensics? It is a for-profit company after all.

------
athenot
The sad part is how "everyone’s buzz gets killed" when he mentions the true
mission of his company. Here he is, making an attempt at solving a real
problem in the real world but he has to feel ashamed because somehow it's less
sexy than web intelligence.

------
wcummings
>The company itself doesn’t make any judgments about what might constitute
illegal trafficking behavior. That’s up to investigators to determine, as
there are adult women who want to do sex work and aren’t being trafficked.

Pretty weaselly.

------
pskittle
How's this different from what palantir is doing?

------
ajiang
Big fan. Email me if you're interested in connecting with the folks at Thorn -
they do a lot of work with DHS on child sex trafficking.

------
awesome_work_
This is inspiring. I hope to one day do work that matters in this kind of way.

~~~
a3n
There are lots of ways to do work that "matters." For example, I work for a 50
year old company that makes medical devices. Those devices save lives. I'm
only a small cog, but I'm working on something that, if it didn't exist, would
probably mean some number of people would die or suffer. I'm very grateful to
be working on something like that, and it's not a sexy new startup, it's a
smallish BigCo.

Look around, find something that interests or matters to you, and consciously
move in that direction. Start now.

------
guelo
Any startup based on scraping Craigslist will probably get shutdown.

------
sitkack
Why is YC funding this?

------
tzakrajs
SaaS for Pimps?

------
tdicola
That's awesome. I have a friend who's really passionate about this stuff and
has some development experience in the area--are you guys hiring?

