
Show HN: Tipping culture for developers on the Web - 60devs
https://tips.60devs.com
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oneJob
I love how the cartoon at the top of the page shows two "indie-developer"
looking characters in all their idiosyncratic glory, but then lower on the
page the user profile photo is of some corporate tool looking guy. It's kinda
like the the joke that is "tipping culture". One supposes it is to show
sincere gratitude and be merit based, but almost inevitably it ends up being
like any other economic exchange, just providing cover for employers who are
unwilling to provide a fair wage to their employees. GitHub is already
populated with code generated on the unacknowledged narrative of "free ($)
OSS". This seems to provide some whitewash.

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60devs
Thank you for your comment. It's a good point, we'll change that profile photo
asap :)

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copsarebastards
So you're going to whitewash it better? I think you missed the point.

Not that I care, I think it's still an interesting project.

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x5n1
Does not seem as if this concept has proven to work yet. Why? Developers are
mostly thrifty and looking to solve a problem. Most of the time they can do
this without help using Google. Developers also don't value their time enough
or properly and like solving problems, so they would be more likely to try to
solve the problem themselves than pay someone for it. That's why you need
managers... developers are often not good decision makers in terms of
utilizing their time most profitably.

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binarymax
Those are some interesting stereotypes you've got there. Developers don't
value their time?

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stefan_work
I've noticed this as well. Most developers will spend 40 hours building a
wheel instead of offering to wire up a pre built solution that costs money.

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oneJob
I can tell you exactly why I might fall into this stereotyped category.

1) The wheel is closed-source, and I do not trust the vendor with that
component. Linkages to that upstream code/license might not be
acceptable/cannot not be justified given the cost/headache of dealing with the
transaction.

2) The wheel is open-source and the code is crap or the license incompatible.

3) The wheel is open source and I worry that the direction of the project is
not compatible with my needs. It might be awesome for the moment, but given
that the project can potentially deviate in a direction that won't work for
the needed solution, linking my code to that upstream project doesn't make
sense. If the project does end up going in a different direction, I must break
my stride, drop what I'm working on, and go back to retrofit that particular
solution.

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bobwaycott
Sadly, "tipping culture" is all too often a product of employer refusal to pay
employees a living wage. They shift that burden onto their patrons, forcing
service workers to be dependent upon the generosity of their employer's
customers.

Why on earth we'd ever want to see "tipping culture" brought into the world of
software development is beyond me.

Worst-case scenario I'm imagining right now:

This whole "tipping culture" thing catches on. A rough amount of tips
developers earn becomes public information somehow. Unscrupulous employers use
this to offer lower salaries and/or raise increases. This persists for years,
allowing salary negotiations industry-wide to employ an expectation of tipping
to replace good wages, driving salaries down to incredibly low levels. This
becomes institutionalized to the point that developers become just another
kind of service worker, dependent on their tips to actually survive.

Best-case scenario I'm imagining right now:

Worst-case scenario happens. SV Developers get a harsh dose of reality and
humility by learning what a horrible thing "tipping culture" is. SV Developers
become incredibly more conscious of how people live on non-SV salaries.

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danieltillett
This is a good idea for a site like stack overflow, but it suffers from the
same problem that many ideas suffer from which is you need a network to be
valuable, but you don't offer value to the first users. To get out of this
trap you either need a lot of money or luck.

I want to be positive - the best I can offer is go very niche. Dominate a very
tiny language/framework and build out.

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rch
Tipping is the wrong model... would you tip an oncologist who gave you a
second opinion for free? Nope. You would just be very grateful.

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60devs
Thanks for you comment,

would you tip an oncologist who gave you a second opinion for free? Nope. You
would just be very grateful. \- basically, this is a reason why it's called
"Tipping culture", when you go to a restaurant you have a choice to pay or not
pay a waitress there, and nobody can force you to leave tips, right? - But,
usually people don't say, that the service was super nice and that's all :(
normally they leave tips.

Here, it's the same. Previously, you didn't have an ability to pay developers
who helped you and now you have it, so it's up to you to pay or not to pay.
It's all voluntary.

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tomjen3
Please don't lump us in the same category as waitresses. I have all the
respect for their job, but I really don't want to work for 8 usd/hr.

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Brainix
Great idea! Why hasn't anyone tried this before?

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xentronium
They did (gittip).

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JackuB
… and Flattr … and TipTheWeb … and Gratipay

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jacques_chester
... and Tipjoy

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rayalez
Here's another great one, with bitcoins:

[https://www.changetip.com/](https://www.changetip.com/)

It's too bad that these ideas keep failing, if one system would work out it
would make the web so much better.

I wish the very best to the developers. Maybe you guys can make it work.

It works on reddit with gold, so it's not like it's impossible to pull off....

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jacques_chester
I don't think it _can_ work. Tipping systems require someone to _think_ about
whether they want to tip.

The alternative is what I call "microsubscription": a middleman takes a single
fixed subscription, then distributes on behalf of users. Examples include
Amazon Underground, Apple Music, Spotify, Netflix, Google Contributor and so
on.

Where these fall down is that they're walled or semi-walled gardens. They
don't really work on the open web, users have to be funnelled through some
central pipeline for reliable tracking of usage.

Which is understandable: open web schemes up until now have had the problem of
fraud. Manageable but potentially fatally expensive and offputting.

I'm interested in this problem space for two reasons. First, advertising
sucks. It distorts the vision that the early internet held out. We got
linkbait and exploitatively addictive web design instead.

Second, I solved the problem of reliably tracking visits to websites on the
open web (patent granted in Australia, pending in the USA). As a side effect,
the same protocol can be used in apps, games, API calls -- anything that has a
network request-response system with some kind of command channel (especially
headers). Plus it can seamlessly integrate with paywalls.

Of the microsubscription providers already in service, the one I worry about
most is Blendle, because it presents no upfront mental barrier to consumption.
On the other hand, it's another walled garden. We'll see.

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kzahel
There's also flattr, which also follows the "micro-subscription" model

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jacques_chester
Yes, I include Flattr. They have in common with Kachingle (and, if you squint,
Patreon) that you need to deliberately activate the payment.

I think that this still doesn't work because it still requires thinking. The
whole magic of microsubscription is that no additional decision making is
needed on the part of the subscriber. They pay once and thereafter consume
without consideration or guilt.

Any act of making people think, no matter how small, is a barrier to entry. I
think this is the fatal flaw in any classic micropayment or tipping scheme.

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delinka
"...PayPal." No thanks. "BitCoin..."

OK, where's the Stripe & Square integration?

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60devs
We've chosen PayPal, because of few very cool features:

1\. It supports B2B payments. We us this model, because we don't want to keep
your money. Whenever you want to tip somebody you do it directly to that
person.

2\. You can still receive money even without being a member of PayPal. If you
are not a member and somebody makes a payment to you, PayPal sends an email
asking you to register and receive your money.

3 It's very simple for you (you just need to put an email address).

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delinka
The problems with PayPal are varied, sundry, many, etc. I've had my own
problems with them that convince me I'll never go back. "Simple" is not enough
of a reason to trust PayPal with my business ever again.

