
Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store - ewoodrich
https://twitter.com/DylanByers/status/1182133441267003392
======
Wowfunhappy
And in one fell swoop, Apple has made it effectively impossible to install
this app on your phone. There's no realistic workaround. †

Apple should never have been capable of making such a drastic decision for all
of their customers. It's one thing to make determinations about what products
are allowed in your store, but quite another to unilaterally ban software from
what is many people's primary computer. We live in a digital age, and software
is a form of free expression. We wouldn't find this acceptable with eBooks,
and we should not find it acceptable for applications.

\---

† Unrealistic workarounds include paying $100 per year for a developer
account, reinstalling the app once every seven days, or finding a shady,
stolen enterprise certificate. These are not real alternatives for 99% of
people.

~~~
s_dev
>And in one fell swoop, Apple has made it effectively impossible to install
this app on your phone. There's no realistic workaround.

Make the app a Web App and visit it in Safari.

Apple has banned it being notarized and distributed from their App Store but
iPhones still have access to the conventional web which Apple has no control
over.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Apple has been (I suspect purposefully!) dragging their feet on progressive
web app support. There list of limitations is long, but most critically for
this app (I would imagine), they can't send notifications and they can't work
offline.

~~~
mehhh
There are a number of interesting use cases for PWAs, but part of Apple's fear
is (potentially) many of their clients will migrate to PWA only, reducing App
Store revenue severely.

Apple also loses all code auditing and screening, meaning they can't ban GPL
licensed PWAs like they ban alternative Linphone builds (as they are GPLv2),
Signal Private Messenger builds (GPLv3) and only the official developer can
build and submit these apps to the app store.

Apple's GPL ban also effiectively mandates these apps having broad CLAs to
ensure they can relicense the code for use in the Apple App Store.

Edit: removed bonus apostrophe

~~~
curt15
What interest would Apple have in banning GPL-licensed web apps?

~~~
mehhh
Of that I am not certain, but Apple has banned VLC and many other apps, and
continues to ban any GPL code from the app store:
[https://www.fsf.org/news/2010-05-app-store-
compliance](https://www.fsf.org/news/2010-05-app-store-compliance)

~~~
irrational
I've used VLC on Apple products (phone, tablet, laptop) for years. I can't
remember a time it wasn't available. Do you mean some VLC other than the
video/media playing application?

~~~
mehhh
VLC had to relicense to LGPL to make that happen:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLC_media_player#History](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLC_media_player#History)

------
parliament32
This is why Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android.

If I have a good reason, I can toggle a setting and install APKs built by
anyone. If I have a good reason, I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader
to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS.

When I buy a phone, it's a hardware product I'm buying. Just like when you buy
a PC/laptop, what you run on it is your business, not the manufacturers. It's
certain _nice_ that Dell pre-loads Windows 10 on their laptops, but if I want
to run Linux, I can.

>but I want my phone to just work

You also have the freedom to stay in the walled garden. The difference is you
have to _option_ to run different software if you so choose, and having that
freedom is so much more important to me than how slick the UI is or how good
the ecosystem is.

I don't own any Apple products, although I was strongly considering switching
to iPhone a few years back. These recent developments confirm that I
definitely made the right choice staying with Android.

~~~
dan-robertson
So you can of course side load apps more easily on Android, but it isn’t super
easy. I guess that matters less when people are motivated.

But... if this statement were true in spirit as well then why don’t we see
google seizing this PR opportunity and making statements about the superiority
of their App Store’s more liberal model? Why do we instead see Google quietly
removing HK-protest related apps too?

I guess the moral is that both Apple and Google will kowtow to the desires of
the Chinese government in these cases and it’s mostly circumstantial that
Google cannot so thoroughly lock down their systems

~~~
parliament32
>it isn’t super easy

In settings, enable "allow installation of apps from unknown sources". Then
download the .apk file from your web browser / dropbox / whatever, and tap to
install. It's literally a single-setting toggle to let you install any apk
from anywhere.

>Google quietly removing HK-protest related apps

Like what? The app that Apple removed is alive and well in the Play Store:
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=live.hkmap.app...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=live.hkmap.app&hl=en_US)

~~~
dan-robertson
Example here: [https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-
hong-...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-hong-kong-
protester-role-playing-game-suspended-google-play-store)

Though I concede that this app is more objectively pro-protestor (rather than
general public safety) and the statements from google feel more like generic
policy than obvious bowing to pressure.

~~~
vatueil
Apparently it was removed because it included in-app purchases and there's a
rule against profiting off of tragedies:

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-
google/...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-
google/google-pulls-hong-kong-protester-role-playing-app-idUSKBN1WP2E6)

> _A Google spokesman said that “The Revolution Of Our Times” app, which lets
> users role-play as Hong Kong protesters, violated a long-standing policy
> “prohibiting developers from capitalizing on sensitive events, such as
> attempting to make money from serious ongoing conflicts or tragedies through
> a game”._

I guess if they remove the IAPs it would be okay?

------
phyzome
> we have verified with the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime
> Bureau [CSTCB] that the app has been used to target and ambush police

"the foxes have verified that the app has been used by hens to ambush foxes"

~~~
idlewords
The Hong Kong authorities just had a press conference where they basically
said "this is purely an Apple matter"
[https://twitter.com/TMclaughlin3/status/1182301330339184641](https://twitter.com/TMclaughlin3/status/1182301330339184641)

------
stephc_int13
Blizzard and now Apple.

I think this is very serious and it should be a wake-up call.

As simple citizens we don't have much choices but vote with our wallets and
use social networks to attack the most valuable asset of those companies,
their reputation.

~~~
journalctl
That’s not how this works. Apple is one of the wealthiest companies in the
world, and saying “just don’t spend money there” is a bit reductionist and
trivializes the problem of corporations with more power than nation-states.

You need to fight fire with fire: governments of the world (especially the US
government) need to create laws that restrict and punish this kind of
behavior. Otherwise, I sincerely doubt Apple’s going to even notice the
missing couple hundred thousand dollars of revenue because of principled
“voting with your wallet”.

~~~
root_axis
> “just don’t spend money there” is a bit reductionist and trivializes the
> problem of corporations with more power than nation-states.

You're totally mistaken if you believe that boycotts and the like aren't taken
seriously by big companies, _especially_ companies like Apple where the brand
is more important than the product. Of course, it all depends on the size of
the boycott, but it doesn't have to cost them millions to become a major
problem.

~~~
decoyworker
They are seeking new revenue in the Chinese market. To them they see a
minuscule boycott in the US as the cost of gaining that market- net positive.

~~~
SmirkingRevenge
China, through its own behavior in situations like these, makes its own market
less attractive for companies and investors, though. You'd have to be crazy to
see what is going on right now, and go all-in in with the market in China. The
arbitrary power of the CPC over market access is a huge liability.

Big companies may still want to do business in China, but they need stronger
footholds in other markets to offset the risk.

~~~
decoyworker
That's true. The Chinese government could just decide they do not like you and
you have no recourse whatsoever. Good point.

------
Green_man
"On January 24th, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh. And you'll see why
1984 won't be like '1984.'"

-Apple, 1983

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_(advertisement)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_\(advertisement\))

~~~
jkingsbery
"2019, on the other hand..."

------
JMTQp8lwXL
To recap:

\- Oct 6th: Apple first rejected the app [0],

\- Oct 8th: Apple then approved it after criticism for rejection [1]

\- Oct 9th: Apple removed it after criticism from the CPC (this story)

[0]: [https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-
map...](https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-map/)

[1]: [https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-
social/article/3032001/apple-...](https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-
social/article/3032001/apple-allows-hong-kong-protest-map-app-can-track-
police-and)

~~~
lord_erasmus
Your dates are off, as per [1]

"HKmap.live, [...], received approval from Apple on October 4 and was made
available for download on October 5, according to the developer"

------
newscracker
As someone who has appreciated the privacy stance Apple has had and the
privacy assisting steps it has taken for a long time (long before iPhone), I
believe Apple is coming out to be completely hypocritical and anti-
privacy/anti-freedom on this app. I cannot believe that Tim Cook and other
senior executives haven't examined this deeper and taken a bold stance to let
the app stay! Shame on you, Apple!

Even John Gruber agrees: [1]

 _> I still haven’t seen which local laws it violates, other than the
unwritten law of pissing off Beijing.

> This is a bad look for Apple, if you think capitulation is a bad look._

[1]: [https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/apple-pulls-
hkm...](https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/apple-pulls-hkmaps)

~~~
kypro
Apple only cares about privacy because it's a threat to Google and Facebook's
business model. They don't care about privacy, they only care about "caring
about privacy" when it is good for their business.

~~~
Shivetya
Well the same can be said about human rights, they only care about it when it
affects their business model in a positive way. if it cost them money they are
very willing to turn their backs on it.

privacy is not possible in a world where governments are free to suppress the
speech and will of the people. any company claiming otherwise simply sees
their bottom line as more important than people, whether they are employees or
customers.

To me Apple is the worst here because Tim and team have no shame, they will
strut upon their stage at their own conferences about how they stand for
rights but when the show lights are off they act completely different.

~~~
joelx
Boycott Apple for sucking up to China. Google products are at least a year
ahead now anyways and Google actually left China altogether at one point.

~~~
paulcarroty
Yep, but they aren't saints: Project Dragonfly.

~~~
bduerst
Which was only a project proposal that was cancelled after employees rebelled
against it. Apple actually _did it_.

------
m0xte
The privacy stance is just marketing. They have handed over iCloud keys and
data to the state in China already. If they cared about privacy over market
dominance that wouldn’t have happened.

Unfortunately as an iOS user tied to the ecosystem this puts me in a difficult
situation ethically speaking. I am sponsoring this.

Perhaps I should stop buying into corporate marketing ideologies. Got burned
by that before (Microsoft))

~~~
simonh
It's really not a matter of ideology, it's a matter of law. They either comply
with Chinese law, or they risk their employees being arrested for breaking the
law, or they stop doing business in China.

I think they would argue that, given that all phones are subject to state
surveillance, iPhone users in China are no worse off than if they were using
another phone. Also since iPhones are generally a lot more secure than other
phones against non-state attacks, they are actually better off than they would
otherwise be.

That's a tough call. I have family in China, since my wife is Chinese, and
they have iPhones. Would they be better off if Apple pulled out of Chine or
worse off?

Well, they chose iPhones and they are more secure so isn't it up to them? They
wouldn't thank me if I took their iPhones away. On the other hand, if Apple
pulled out of China on privacy grounds, it would be massive news. It would not
be something the Chinese government could ignore, and might conceivably raise
awareness of pervasive state surveillance in China.

But people in China are already very much aware of pervasive state
surveillance. They even have a social credit system based on watching
everything they do. Chinese state control of public narratives is so total, I
actually doubt it would make any difference.

~~~
Krasnol
Wasn't it "the law" also when they came up with the privacy claim around that
terrorist case where the FBI needed access to a device?

I mean, in the end it's the same thing as the classic "I didn't do anything
wrong, I've been following orders".

~~~
saagarjha
The FBI specifically asked Apple to backdoor that device, rather than handing
over encryption keys that they already kept.

~~~
Krasnol
Not much of a difference in the case of China, the keys to iCloud and just
"following the law".

------
mmastrac
It's time that North Americans take a stand and use economic power for
something other than furthering that goal. There are so many places where a
simple refusal to kowtow/censor or technical attack on censorship
infrastructure could help so many that don't have the luxury of living in our
world.

If we're not going to use all this economic power for good, what's the point?

~~~
supernova87a
You're not going to be able to.

America and other classical democracies are in a phase of aging where a
decline in prosperity combined with a die-hard (unthinking) application of
absolute freedom of speech are paralyzing action. Everyone is disagreeing with
each other over a shrinking pie, pitting demographic against demographic, and
not only that, any genuine disagreement and decision making is muddied by
agents trying to confuse people.

There is no prioritization or restriction on who may say what, how loudly, or
regardless of how harmful or counter to the public good it is. And, may I add,
most democratic governments do not have a strong enough perspective (in this
period) on what the public good _is_.

As a result, those places that have harnessed the power of demographics while
also controlling the message are gaining power. Obviously I mean China. Yes
they have anti-absolute-free-speech restrictions that are repugnant to us. But
you're damn sure they stay on message as a country/government.

Unfortunately this situation is also to the benefit of chaotic actors like
Russia, where they benefit from just other countries being paralyzed and them
being able to do what they want.

In the absence of government leadership, corporations had the chance of
filling in the role. But now we see that in the face of power, they recoil as
well. We did this to ourselves, by letting our priorities get muddled as we
got richer. We didn't "stay hungry", my friends.

~~~
birdyrooster
Monocultures are a weakness and not a strength when it comes to technological
innovation, physical/information security and foreign policy. From my
perspective, the pie is continuing to grow and the disagreement is who takes
the bigger slices from the ever growing pie.

Corporations never had a chance of filling the role because they are very
undemocratic, even in the United States. Things need to get bad enough for the
only democratic system we have to take action. We aren't there yet.

------
ewoodrich
From NBC News reporter @DylanByers on Twitter:

“We created the App Store to be a safe and trusted place to discover apps. We
have learned that an app, HKmap.live, has been used in ways that endanger law
enforcement and residents in Hong Kong. Many concerned customers in Hong Kong
have contacted us about this app and we immediately began investigating it.
The app displays police locations and we have verified with the Hong Kong
Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau that the app has been used to target
and ambush police, threaten public safety, and criminals have used it to
victimize residents in areas where they know there is no law enforcement. This
app violates our guidelines and local laws, and we have removed it from the
App Store.”

~~~
toomim
This rationale focuses on how the app has been _used_ , rather than what it
_does_ , which could apply equally well to any text messaging or web browser
app that is used illegally.

Imagine if this said:

> We have learned that an app, iMessage, has been used in ways that endanger
> law enforcement and residents in Hong Kong. Many concerned customers in Hong
> Kong have contacted us about this app and we immediately began investigating
> it. The app displays police locations that people send via text message and
> we have verified with the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime
> Bureau that the app has been used to target and ambush police, threaten
> public safety, and criminals have used it to victimize residents in areas
> where they know there is no law enforcement. This app violates our
> guidelines and local laws, and we have removed it from the App Store.

~~~
rdlecler1
Exactly, by that account, they should remove encryption on iMessage so that
police can access it.

~~~
saagarjha
I'm actually quite surprised that iMessage has seemingly flown under the radar
in authoritarian countries for this long…maybe nobody uses it there?

~~~
the_other
People only use it because it's enabled by default and takes over from SMS
with minimal intervention. There's no point using it when there's also
WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal/etc. The competition are largely cross-platform. I'm
surprised Apple even bothered to make it in the first place. They could have
saved themselves the effort and not got into that market, rather than making
an app that makes them look bad.

~~~
htfu
How does it make them look bad? In any case when it was developed WhatsApp was
still early days (and supposed to eventually charge fees), and neither
Messenger nor the others existed. It succeeded well enough that in very
iPhone-heavy markets WhatsApp never really became a thing.

------
idlewords
This move comes after Apple re-instated the app into the app store under
public pressure. This comes after Apple told Senator Howley that the decision
to block the app had been a mistake:

[https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1180214941867036672](https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1180214941867036672)

It's important for the discussion that this app does not violate any local
laws in Hong Kong. It is a safety tool. You can check out the web version here
(click icons and paste text into Google translate if you can't read Chinese)
[https://hkmap.live/](https://hkmap.live/)

In a nutshell, it shows where police are (puppy icons), police vehicles,
concentrations of demonstrators (construction worker icon), sightings of the
special riot squad called the raptors (dinosaur icon), and places where
demonstrators can find safe transport (house icon).

There's a lot of rumor flying around Hong Kong that selective website blocking
will be the next emergency measure after the mask ban, so it's very important
to have a backup version of this site on the app store (and Google store) in
addition to the web version.

~~~
nneonneo
Using a dog icon for the police isn’t exactly a great look if you’re trying to
be neutral. It’s roughly equivalent to using a pig to represent the police in
the US. I don’t see why they couldn’t have just used one of the standard emoji
for police there - it’d be a lot less likely to offend.

~~~
frankacter
As a counterpoint, I grew up with McGruff the Crime Dog, which is still used
today:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGruff_the_Crime_Dog](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGruff_the_Crime_Dog)

Also worth noting that K9 Units are heavily utilized by police

[https://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/11_useful_info/pdu/index.ht...](https://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/11_useful_info/pdu/index.html)

There is a historical precedent of that association.

~~~
nneonneo
“It’s totally ok, dogs are police too” doesn’t quite work in a culture where
dogs are often invoked as insult words. There’s a different cultural context
here that you need to be aware of. As I said, the American equivalent would
probably be to use a little pig emoji for a police officer, which I doubt
would go over well here.

It’s not by a stretch the most controversial aspect of the app, but it doesn’t
really help their case much.

------
scarface74
Ben Thompson of Stratechery talks about this a lot. Apple always says they
want to own the most important pieces of their products but then Tim Cook when
he was COO made the decision to be completely beholden to China for their
manufacturing. I hope that Apple is seriously trying to diversify their supply
chain out of China. It can be done at scale - Samsung moved all of their
manufacturing out of Chins.

~~~
gutnor
China is a big growing market and the CCP cleverly share a huge piece of the
pie with Western companies. Western Democracies are growth addict and China is
their dealer.

Another "problem" is that despite its corruption and autocracy, the CCP still
manages to make life better for the average Chinese. On the street it is not a
hopeless hell, so right now giving up some of their freedom looks like a good
deal to them.

So even if Apple manage to break free from its manufacturing lock in, that's a
lot of general inertia to go against. Also, considering that Apple approach to
privacy is more and more at odd in the Western World, they have enough on
their plate already.

~~~
deogeo
> right now giving up some of their freedom looks like a good deal to them.

Getting that freedom back once the deal sours will be very hard, and get much
harder each year as surveillance and repression grow.

~~~
bduerst
As much as this seems like a foreign concept to westerners, most Chinese
citizens (outside of the European provinces) simply do not care about it the
way westerners do.

To GP's point, their lives have and continue to improve, with the fastest
growing middle class this decade. And before you project western ideals on
China and start doomsaying about their impending economic collapse, understand
that people have been saying that for a decade too.

~~~
yeahforsureman
Yeah, that's human nature. A lot of people were fairly satisfied even behind
the Iron Curtain for a time before the economic dysfunction became too
apparent.

Yet even then as now, we have every right to project and even attempt to
impose these "western" ideals of _individual_ human rights on systems that try
to deny them from any one _individual_.

The only "western" thing about them is that the particular framework of
discourse we currently use to describe these values was born here. Yet those
values are, or should be, universal. I refuse to take any bullshit claiming
otherwise from any collectivist ideology, with or without Chinese
characteristics. They have no legitimacy in overriding the rights of an
individual based on any braindead ideology or concept of an essence of a
society or culture, historical dialectics or whatever.

~~~
bduerst
Right, but it will be several generations before that even becomes a
possibility. Right now you have the famine generation who remembers how
terrible things used to be, and will be content as long as things are and
continue to improve.

~~~
yeahforsureman
Perhaps. Then again, people don't often get, for example, how brutish even
Western Europe was pre-1945. But realistically, yeah, not during the current
generation of people in power.

The next generation looks worrying, too, and authoritarian systems certainly
can persist and are able to adapt over time. Yet they are always brittle in
many ways. It sure looks like Chinese leaders know this, too.

------
song
Does this app signal where there's police activity? Yes

Could it be used with intent to avoid police? Yes

Does it mean that it's only used with criminal intent? I don't believe so. I
personally use it to avoid protests and go through my daily life.

Should you now remove Safari because it allows you to access data that would
potentially help with criminal intent? What about the twitter app, lot's of
messages related to protests there.

And this reinforces my decision not to switch back to ios and instead stick
with Android. I don't necessarily trust Google with my privacy and I have my
own reservations but at least with Android my phone is my own. I can install
what I want. Even a working firewall (I like little snitch on my mac, no
reason I shouldn't have something similar on my phone).

~~~
_pmf_
> Should you now remove Safari because it allows you to access data that would
> potentially help with criminal intent?

Worked for gab.

~~~
song
For a site like Gab, I always wondered if having a massive amount of users
posting messages making fun of the alt right movement, painting neo nazies
like the idiots they are and criticizing the site user base wouldn't have been
a better way than outright censorship.

It would have really tested the supposedly pro free speech stance of that
site.

I mean I'm being a bit tongue in cheek there but I'm really not sure if
censorship doesn't further radicalize those people by letting them rally
around a "Us against Them" mentality. Wouldn't interacting with those people
be better?

~~~
eyelidlessness
For the most part the far right doesn't engage in good faith. They're not just
operating from a different set of opinions, they target people based on who
they are for violence and ultimately their elimination. They are not a
political movement, they're a death cult.

It's not unheard of to de-radicalize some in the far right, but it's
incredibly difficult work that takes a special familiarity and skillset.

Bang for buck, deplatforming is far more effective. It's hard for them to
build their movement when they can't easily access vulnerable minds.

~~~
_pmf_
> They are not a political movement, they're a death cult.

Making a video of a dog doing a Hitler salute is not the downfall of
civilization.

------
rayiner
This is an app protestors use to protect themselves from police. There is no
legitimate business reason to remove this app, except for making it easier for
police to hurt protestors. That makes Apple complicit in any harm that
results. (You can sell guns or poisonous chemicals that have legitimate uses,
but you can’t sell them to someone you know will use them to commit crimes.)

Imagine if we had apps during the Holocaust, and Apple removed an app being
used by Jewish hideaways to communicate. We’re dangerously close to that.

------
elicash
What's weird is that if you google: "Hong Kong" "Cybersecurity and Technology
Crime Bureau" -apple

You come up with surprisingly little. Basically two stories. One about
preventing scams in Hong Kong, and one about fake checks. I was expecting tens
of thousands of results.

Is there a more common name that's used in English for this entity? I'd like
to research more about who they are other than the generality of a wing of the
police force.

~~~
newtat
I am a Hong Kong local. Never heard of this "Bureau" until now.

[https://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/04_crime_matters/tcd/tcd.ht...](https://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/04_crime_matters/tcd/tcd.html)

Looks like it is a department in the police force. So Apple's response
basically boils down to "We are requested by the cops to remove the app".

------
jayyhu
I think Apple's action here provides a good case for breaking up platforms. If
the App Store were decoupled from the main hardware-making and hardware-
selling part of Apple, then there wouldn't be a conflict of interest between
providing a neutral app-selling platform and retaining access to foreign
markets.

~~~
jpttsn
What platform is big enough to break up the big platforms?

~~~
swebs
The United States Federal Trade Commission.

~~~
jpttsn
Mhm. And shouldn’t they, then, be broken up as well?

Which monopoly breaks up the monopoly upbreakers?

~~~
swebs
Broken up into what? It's a government agency that already has a narrow scope
of operation.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Trade_Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Trade_Commission)

------
xibalba
This is a vexing problem.

It seems that many here would want Apply to defy China. This will result in
Apple's expulsion from China/HK. Those users will then move to other phone
mfgs/services providers, with higher probability that it will be Chinese,
thereby granting the PRC even more power over HK'ers.

Contrarily is the "seat at the table" approach. Apple could comply with China,
while continually introducing features/functionality that fundamentally block
them (Apple) from complying with PRC demands (encryption, privacy, etc etc).
Apple would not be able to announce this, and it might ruin their reputation
in the meantime. It also allows Apple to continue hoovering up that sweet,
sweet China/HK cash.

What is the best approach? Most of the comments here are signficantly
oversimplifying the options available to Apple and the calculus that goes into
making those decisions. Additionally, most opinions being posted are heavily
centered on Western values/viewpoints.

~~~
matwood
I agree with you that it is more complicated than just leaving or not. Plus,
Apple is currently dependent on Chinese manufacturing (a problem of Apples own
making for sure). I would love to know what the conversations are between
Apple and China right now. IMO, Apple has to be working towards removing their
dependence on Chinese manufacturing, if for nothing else for business risk
mitigation.

~~~
xibalba
> Apple is currently dependent on Chinese manufacturing

This seems like the single most overlooked aspect of this. Bc of this, China
has _existential_ leverage over Apple.

~~~
mslate
The single most overlooked aspect of this is how many Chinese are employed as
part of Apple’s supply chain. It is not in CCP interest to destroy millions of
Chinese citizens’ incomes.

~~~
matwood
This is a side I hadn't thought of. But, given how China appears to treat its
citizens do you think they really care?

------
gear54rus
It would be good to remember this moment next time some of their marketing
bullshit about privacy will surface again.

Their word extends no further than the next paycheck. And people still fall
for it.

~~~
leppr
Privacy and freedom don't necessarily intersect. You could have a lot of
privacy but no freedom in a windowless prison cell, or a lot of freedom but no
privacy being homeless in the street.

(not that Apple's privacy spiel ever really meant anything as a company
selling internet-connected black boxes)

~~~
mikenew
You're right, but the dialogue should change from "Apple respects your
privacy" to "Yeah maybe Apple respects your privacy but they don't respect
your freedom".

Also they host all their Chinese iCloud data on Chinese servers now. So the
"privacy" marketing is pretty bullshit anyway. At best it should be "Apple
respects the privacy of some of it's users at the current time, probably".

------
s3r3nity
>Yesterday, English-language state media outlet China Daily blasted Apple’s
decision to allow HKmap.live onto the App Store. “Providing a gateway for
‘toxic apps’ is hurting the feelings of the Chinese people, twisting the facts
of Hong Kong affairs, and against the views and principles of the Chinese
people,” the op-ed argued.

Wow...this type of language - "toxic apps," "hurting the feelings of the
Chinese people," etc. - sounds disturbingly similar to SJW rhetoric in the
States.

EDIT: In case it's not obvious - I am against censoring apps & speech.

~~~
kevingadd
When have "SJWs" ever lobbied to pull maps or other public information or
safety resources? Can you come up with one example?

The language is only one component in a given scenario. What the language is
being deployed to do is very important. Murderers can use the same language in
their court defenses as innocent people.

~~~
keiferski
Isn’t cancel culture more or less the same thing?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-
out_culture#Cancel_Cultur...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-
out_culture#Cancel_Culture)

~~~
kevingadd
Cancel culture is not remotely related to Apple pulling a maps application off
the app store. No one has been cancelled here, unless you count government
suppression of speech as "cancel culture".

~~~
keiferski
I don’t know, they seem relatively related. Both are actions / attempts to
silence opposing ideas by putting pressure on businesses and consumers.

Calling for someone to be silenced (cancel culture) is closer to actual
censorship than the classic “I disagree with what you say but will fight for
your right to say it.”

------
aurelius83
Apple also recently pulled the app of the American news organization Quartz
from the App Store in China. Quartz has been covering the Hong Kong protests.

[https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1182153976873148416](https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1182153976873148416)

------
bufferoverflow
Lesson learned: don't use apple phones. Android lets you install APKs from any
source.

~~~
zahrc
How many tech parts, phones, and whatnot are “made in China”? How many of
these companies are owned by the government?

Basically by buying whatever you are shoving money in to this regime. No
matter what and where you buy.

Also what about huawei?

~~~
cr0sh
> Basically by buying whatever you are shoving money in to this regime. No
> matter what and where you buy.

Your other option is...what?

You can't buy anything electronic anymore solely "Made in America"; that is,
where all the parts, design, assembly, casing, etc - are all done here.
Outside of maybe a few select items (and probably certain military stuff - but
that isn't available to consumers anyhow) - it just doesn't exist. And it
won't likely ever exist, as it would be suicide for a business to go that
route.

Anything made in other SEA countries likely use parts sourced from China. I am
not sure what you are suggesting, except that we stop purchasing new
electronics, and hope and pray that (somehow) our electronics manufacturing
systems from the 1950s-70s magically return back to our country.

You'll be waiting a long time...

~~~
zahrc
I was commenting to the parent comment which suggested to buy android phones
instead of iPhones to tackle that problem, which is not going to solve
anything. As you’ve stated so nicely, because everything is basically
dependent on China.

------
JMTQp8lwXL
To ensure I am following the story correctly:

\- Oct 6th: Apple first rejected the app [0],

\- Oct 8th: Apple then approved it after criticism for rejection [1]

\- Oct 9th: Apple removed it after criticism from the CPC (this story)

[0]: [https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-
map...](https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-map/)

[1]: [https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-
social/article/3032001/apple-...](https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-
social/article/3032001/apple-allows-hong-kong-protest-map-app-can-track-
police-and)

------
munmaek
It’s extremely worrying how far Apple bends over to appease China. First
censoring the Taiwan flag, now deliberately removing this app after initially
refusing it.

~~~
xigency
The Taiwanese issue is super interesting since Apple manufactures their
silicon in Taiwan and their commodity hardware in China.

------
donohoe
Wait. They did ban it. Then they approved it again.

Have they banned it again?

See BoingBoing article from Oct 4th:

    
    
      "Apple reverses ban on HKmap.live app tracking Hong Kong protests & police"
    

[https://boingboing.net/2019/10/04/hkmap-live-hong-
kong.html](https://boingboing.net/2019/10/04/hkmap-live-hong-kong.html)

~~~
jakelazaroff
Yup, this article is from today.

~~~
donohoe
Right, but I'm asking if this article is outdated already?

Often a story gets held up while being written and doesn't account for
developments in last few days. It is just confusing as they don't state that
this would be Apple undoing a previous reversal in the fate of this app.

Update: ok, Apple did initial reinstated it and has removed it again.

[https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/09/apple-pulls-hkmap-from-
app...](https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/09/apple-pulls-hkmap-from-app-store-
the-day-after-chinese-state-media-criticized-its-unwise-and-reckless-decision-
to-approve-it/)

~~~
rtkwe
The article is from today and references tweets made today (10/10) and dates
the removal to late 10/9... There's no evidence that this is an out of date
article. Apple caved, uncaved, then recaved again.

------
thefounder
Another reminder that you don't own anything in this new "appstore" and
"cloud" services world. You have no right to choose what to watch, what to
listen or what app to use. Don't be surprised to have your device /app
disabled one day(i.e Adobe/Venezuela case)

------
Danbana
Very exciting to see momentum gathering against Apple's walled garden.
checkm8, AltStore. You should be allowed to install any app you want, take any
drugs you want, and people who can't use this power responsibly be pwnd

------
hardmaru
Official response from HKmap.live team:
[https://twitter.com/hkmaplive/status/1182154372563836928](https://twitter.com/hkmaplive/status/1182154372563836928)

------
andromeduck
Tim purportedly sent this out today, found it on reddit:

You have likely seen the news that we made the decision to remove an app from
the App Store entitled HKmap.live. These decisions are never easy, and it is
harder still to discuss these topics during moments of furious public debate.
It's out of my great respect for the work you do every day that I want to
share the way we went about making this decision. It is no secret that
technology can be used for good or for ill. This case is no different. The app
in question allowed for the crowdsourced reporting and mapping of police
checkpoints, protest hotspots, and other information. On its own, this
information is benign. However, over the past several days we received
credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime
Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that the app was being used
maliciously to target individual officers for violence and to victimize
individuals and property where no police are present. This use put the app in
violation of Hong Kong law. Similarly, widespread abuse clearly violates our
App Store guidelines barring personal harm. We built the App Store to be a
safe and trusted place for every user. It's a responsibility that we take very
seriously, and it's one that we aim to preserve. National and international
debates will outlive us all, and, while important, they do not govern the
facts. In this case, we thoroughly reviewed them, and we believe this decision
best protects our users.

[https://imgur.com/2pkIFNu](https://imgur.com/2pkIFNu)

------
bmarquez
Apple's walled garden is a double-edged sword.

If Apple would allow users to easily* sideload applications like Android,
protesters can easily bypass these types of bans.

*telling someone to install Xcode or Cydia Impactor and resigning a certificate every 7 days is too much for the average user

~~~
scarface74
Or if all the app does is report police presence using your location, they
could create a website and not need an app at all....

~~~
jonfw
hkmap.live

The map is online as well, I guess they also wanted the app

~~~
scarface74
What does the app do that the website doesn’t?

~~~
vzidex
Nothing much, which some people argue is additional justification for Apple
removing it - one of their rules is that apps have to use native iOS features,
and can't just be glorified webapps.

------
siruncledrew
Out of curiosity, I reviewed the App Store guidelines:
[https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/#leg...](https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/#legal)

The Legal Section states:

 _" Apps must comply with all legal requirements in any location where you
make them available (if you’re not sure, check with a lawyer). We know this
stuff is complicated, but it is your responsibility to understand and make
sure your app conforms with all local laws, not just the guidelines below. And
of course, apps that solicit, promote, or encourage criminal or clearly
reckless behavior will be rejected. In extreme cases, such as apps that are
found to facilitate human trafficking and/or the exploitation of children,
appropriate authorities will be notified."_

There is also a sub-section, which states:

 _" (iii) Apps should not attempt to surreptitiously build a user profile
based on collected data and may not attempt, facilitate, or encourage others
to identify anonymous users or reconstruct user profiles based on data
collected from Apple-provided APIs or any data that you say has been collected
in an “anonymized,” “aggregated,” or otherwise non-identifiable way."_

Obviously, with HK and China, the stringency of Apple adhering to their
guidelines on decisioning is politically contentious.

From a broader perspective though, there is something about this type of app
functionality that is interesting for other cases - What are Apple's rules
about app users tracking other people without their knowledge/consent, and
then sharing that information with others?

This is also important because it influences levels of privacy protection.

As a low-level example, Waze tracks locations of police, cameras, roadwork,
etc., which helps drivers avoid tickets for speeding (generally, this seems
pretty accepted and I don't know of any major complaints).

However, say I have an app that tracks celebrities, musicians, businesspeople,
athletes, etc., and I share that location data on a live map for others to
see, and also contribute to. I imagine that would not go over too well with
the people being tracked, even if they were being tracked out of admiration.
This presents its own set of problems too for app abilities.

~~~
idlewords
Waze is on considerably less solid legal ground than this app.

------
personjerry
This may be an unpopular opinion, but this is a difficult call, and we should
think about both sides of Apple's decision. If the app really is being used to
target, and thus endanger, certain individuals, whether or not they're law
enforcement, that is problematic, and makes unclear what the right decision
is.

If we change the circumstances, imagine there is a new Uber-like group
transportation app that helps people get around safely in the US. But it
enables racist groups to systematically harm civilian groups, and is actively
being used to do so. Would the US ask Apple to shut them down? Should Apple
shut them down?

~~~
epaga
You could say the same about Google Maps completely revolutionizing the
burglary "industry" with its satellite imagery and escape route calculations.

Or about Telegram/WhatsApp offering end-to-end encryption to child
pornographers.

Etc. etc. - just because an app can be used to do harm should not mean it
should be pulled. I think Apple's policy until now has made sense - they've
pulled apps that break local laws or that are specifically designed to
endanger or harm individuals. This app does neither (unlike Quartz, by the way
- once China censored them, Apple needed to comply based on their own policy).

------
epaga
Messages, FaceTime, Maps - all apps that are used throughout the world for
criminal purposes which endanger people and law enforcement.

This does not mean they should be pulled. Nor does the app break any local
laws.

This is spin. This is putting the value of money above the value of individual
freedom. This is shameful.

------
cageface
It may be quite comfortable in that walled garden but it can turn into a jail
with a twist of the key.

------
eloff
It won't bother Apple in the slightest, but I need a new laptop in the New
Year, and after seeing this I can say it won't be a Mac.

I'm going to hold out for one of the 7nm AMD laptops when they're released. It
will have to run Ubuntu, which is a bit sad, but at least I took a stand with
my spending vote.

------
NicoJuicy
Just when I complimented Apple for the first time in my life.

I can retract the same comment within 24 hours.

How can they keep a straight face, promoting security and privacy after such a
public failure, where obviously profits come first.

I'm pretty sure that the Chinese bots, that gave the app a 1-star rating
aren't banned at all.

~~~
whywhywhywhy
This is nothing new, in the Tim Cook era they've been overly eager to shout
loudly about social issues on stage and in the press.

Yet when it comes down to rich markets like this situation, the Taiwan's flag
emoji being disabled or disabling the pride flag/watch face in Russia and the
Middle East, these ideals go right out the window.

Only happy to shout loud on these issues when there are zero repercussions
about them, second it could possibly mean a dip in profits they roll over in
an instant.

------
vezycash
To app stores esp IOS users and appologists:

"He who trades his freedom for safety gets none of them."

~~~
grotsnot
"As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of
information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people
whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with
freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on
public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who
would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your
master."

------
sho
Here we go again...

Let me explain how Chinese people think about HK, since none of them ever seem
to explain it on a site like this.

Imagine you are a middle class American. Maybe you are but if not, just
imagine, tech city on the east or west coast. You're pretty invested in being
an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Very good. They call this
_tianxia_ by the way, basically Chinese manifest destiny.

Let's say one day some stupid little state that you don't care about and
vaguely resent decides it wants to secede, wants all these rights others don't
have, wants to be able to marry its cousins or make nukes at home or whatever.
Alabama, say. Alabama wants to secede and they have some demonstrations. You
think: "hahahaha no"

They keep demonstrating. The larger country talks about sending in the
national guard or something. "Good, who do they think they are" you say.

Some alabamans post an app on the app store so they can avoid the national
guard. It's linked to secessionist alabamans avoiding and even attacking the
guard. Apple takes it down, then puts it back up, then takes it back down

"Good" you say.

This is how, conservatively, 90%+ of Chinese think. For them, HK is a tiny
little past-glory city who thinks it's better than everyone else and is just
causing trouble. They will eventually be brought into line, hopefully without
too much bloodshed, just like Alabama. It's not really malicious. It's a
province of China - it's misbehaving, and it will be brought into line in due
course. Nothing more, nothing less.

I expect someone explained these truths to Apple, they saw the futility of
taking some hopeless, simplistic, you-don't-even-live-here side, decided this
was not the hill they wanted to die on, and pulled the app. I don't blame
them.

I'd like to note that I do not support the Chinese Govt in any way and think
the world would be a better place with an independent, democratic HK - a city
I genuinely love. The Chinese have about as much chance agreeing with that as
Americans would about an independent Alabama. Not going to happen.

~~~
whatshisface
> _You 're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest
> destiny etc._

That's probably where you lose most of the US audience. One of the biggest
differences between American and Chinese culture is that manifest destiny is
mostly dead in America, but it isn't in China. Of course America has
multinationals jockeying for global power, but that doesn't reflect how the
voters think.

~~~
jbattle
Go read the comment section on Breitbart or Fox or Red State. American
Exceptionalism is still gospel truth for ~half the country

~~~
whatshisface
American exceptionalism isn't the same thing as manifest destiny. Republicans
might be patriotic but most do not support wars of conquest or global
expansionism. In fact, the "America first" slogan that recently helped win an
election has been attacked as isolationist.

~~~
jbattle
You're right. I read 'manifest destiny' as short hand for "USA USA!"
boosterism. China obviously isn't an expansionist colonial power either. But I
concede the point that Manifest Destiny really hasn't been an active doctrine
in our lifetime.

Maaaaybe if you look at the Project for the New American Century with the
right lens.

~~~
mistermann
> China obviously isn't an expansionist colonial power either.

Maybe not colonial in a ~legal sense, but some of the deals they're doing with
weaker countries seem designed to grant them significant power.

------
_bxg1
You'd think this would be the _last_ moment they'd want to do something like
this, given the Blizzard fiasco.

------
pixelbreaker
It's here anyway [https://hkmap.live/](https://hkmap.live/)

~~~
dmvinson
I think the issue is more about Apple's acquiescence. My guess is protesters
require a VPN at this point to access the map's server regardless of it they
do so through the app or the website. The technical barrier is there
regardless, but the fact that Apple is making clear what their values are
worth merits discussion.

------
ourlordcaffeine
List of businesses who have capitulated to china

[https://github.com/caffeine-
overload/bandinchina](https://github.com/caffeine-overload/bandinchina)

------
huntermeyer
Is Waze still on their app store?

Police/Gov't can use apps/devices to spy on citizens, but how dare we
reciprocate. Dark times.

------
huffmsa
There's a certain irony in that 1984 commercial now, isn't there?

~~~
yyyk
It's not irony - we've just misunderstood Apple all these years.

If you look closely at the commercial, Apple never actually said which side
they're on. Looking at their actions - they're on the side on the ordered
regime defending the users from themselves and from a troublemaker running
around with a unlicensed and unauthorized hammer she's holding wrong. They'd
just would like the regime to be a bit more stylish.

------
edvinasbartkus
When the app is removed from the App Store, does it mean that it disappears
from all phones, or it means that the new sales of the app are not possible?

~~~
newscracker
In my understanding, this depends on what action Apple exactly takes. If it
just removes it from the App Store, all existing installations on devices
would remain and continue to work. If Apple revokes the developer's
certificate, then the app would likely fail to launch sometime soon and would
be removed.

I'm sure there are gaps in my understanding. Corrections are welcome.

~~~
kalleboo
I believe these are the different levels they have at their disposal:

\- _Remotely delete from everyone 's devices_ (Apple has never used this
capability, they say the ability is there in the case of malware)

\- _Remove from the App Store completely_ (keeps running if you had it
installed, you can back it up to iTunes and reinstall from there, can't
download from the store. I think they did this with apps that worked their way
around AT&T tethering restrictions back in the day when that was a thing)

\- _Removed from sale_ (if you installed it before, you can still re-download
it from your App Store purchase history)

I don't think certificate revocation is applicable to app store apps - e.g. I
can revoke my own dev distribution certificate and it only kills self-hosted
Ad Hoc builds. They may have per-developer app store certs only available
internally as well but I think they'd use one of the capabilities above
instead

------
3dfan
Why is an app needed to display things on a map? Isn't that something a
website can do just fine?

Which brings up an interesting, more general topic:

Why do we need apps at all? What is the fundamental difference to websites?

~~~
avocado4
Apps provide better user experience through higher performance.

I'm this case though website is sufficient:
[https://hkmap.live/](https://hkmap.live/)

~~~
3dfan
Why is the performance of Apps higher? Isn't both just code executed on the
client?

~~~
mantap
There isn't really, you can hit 60fps on both, especially on current iPhones.
The main thing missing on the web is an equivalent to Metal (they are working
on it) so it is not possible to built 3D apps without sacrificing a lot of
performance.

------
UIZealot
It helps to know a _little_ bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong,
before you all decide to line up and take your daily dump on China.

It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and
fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the
Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these
crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions in the region, including
Taiwan and mainland China.

The proposed law even explicitly stated that it's not applicably to crimes
political in nature. But some HK people were nevertheless concerned that it
might be abused by China to target political dissidents in HK.

So they have taken to the streets to protest that law. As a result, the law
was quickly suspended before it had a chance to pass, and a few weeks ago the
HK Chief Executive officially announced the withdrawal of the law.

However, despite the concession from the HK government, the protesters pressed
on, demanding four more concessions from the government, chief among them
universal suffrage, or the direct election of the HK Chief Executive, who up
to this point have been nominated from a narrow pool of Beijing-approved
candidates, then voted on by a committee.

It's not entirely clear that China even had anything to do with the proposal
of the law which started this ordeal. But the protesters have been shrewd to
paint a picture, to great effect, of big bad China stomping on the poor
helpless people of HK.

What I cannot stress enough, is the rampant _violence and destruction_ from
these protesters, which has done this great city, and many innocent citizens,
unimaginable harm. Feel free to support their _peaceful_ protests, but please
don't simply pile on and encourage these violence and destruction.

If anything I said is untrue, please correct me. Use the truth to argue your
side, don't be a coward and hide behind your downvote.

~~~
thewholeview
Thanks for trying to educate the mass in a factual manner, and I'd like to
apologize for others for voting you down. Unfortunately many of HN are fueled
currently by a righteous sense of nationalism and words outside the context of
the media cannot be easily consumed at the moment. It's absolutely similar in
Chinese forums though as we are through an era that has the easiest path
towards a propaganda for a collective herd mentality. However it is important
to continue to present the facts as it's a gain overall for the entire
community to not have the facts/opposing views to be censored.

~~~
missosoup
I have a good-faith question for you.

Your account is 6 days old. Your account's activity is 100% directed towards
China-related threads and your comments take on a CCP angle.

I'd like to know what brought you to HN and what you hope to accomplish here.
Where do you live? Where did you study? What are your political leanings? I
would love to open a line of dialogue.

~~~
thewholeview
Thanks for asking. I've answered this in another thread, I'll copy paste the
reply over with minor edits:

Yes, I can admit that I've created an alternate account. Because the current
American political atmosphere is instilling fear for my ability to freely
express the alternative that's other than the popular opinion. I'm selfish and
wish to not cause damage to my credential on my main account, and leave that
for non-political discussions.

I only come to hope to bring certain other perspective in peace and hoping for
scholarly discussions on perspectives that I've not personally considered.

As for my life trajectory, I was born in China, studied in Canada, and now
presently resides in America. I like to think that I lean towards the center,
but other people may not believe so.

~~~
missosoup
Yeah, that's fine. Anonymity is important precisely because it allows one to
discuss sensitive topics openly.

But you are using anonymity to advocate for a regime where anonymity has been
systemically removed and where this conversation could never take place on a
public forum. That's a bit of dissonance no?

------
alunchbox
I still don't understand how so many consumers are on the Apple platform.
Their tools are really painful to use from my time build for their ecosystem,
slow and outright overpriced. This has been a known thing yet the entire
consumer market is obsessed with Apple, I honestly don't understand it.

------
thelittleone
I wonder if Apple would ban an app that helped users identity products made in
China (so they could buy alternatives). That might be an interesting test.

------
mikece
I was about to ask why Silicon Valley companies act so beholden to China...
and then I remembered where their supply chain originates.

~~~
coldtea
They also have a huge market there, that's on the rise for future decades
(many poor remaining trying to become middle class), whereas their own are
getting saturated...

------
planetzero
This shows us:

1) The problems wit ha closed/walled-garden app store. Apple has the final say
and control 2) Companies like Apple are putting profits above human rights.
Would the same decision have been made if Jobs were still alive? Hard to say.

------
sqreept
They should be using Apple Maps to attack Police and then Apple should remove
that shady app used obviously for no good.

------
zepto
Apple has obviously compromised themselves here because they are dependent on
the good graces of the CCP for their manufacturing, and have caved to
pressure.

I don’t think that is in question.

It seems like any company that does something the CCP dislikes is going to
face this kind of pressure, and if even Apple can’t resist, the nobody can.

Google obviously chose not to participate in that market at all.

I see a lot of criticism of Apple here, which seems quite reasonable.

That leads me to be curious what people think an acceptable level of
participation in the Chinese economy actually is?

Is Google’s move - I.e. exciting entirely - the only ethical option?

------
djohnston
really solid argument for the dangers of apple's walled-garden monopoly

------
CyberMew
Why would they remove this for no reason when it helps me to not be in the
area or travel to the area where those events are happening?

The logic is the same as removing the AppStore since criminals are also using
it.

------
gigatexal
Didn’t they add it back just recently?

~~~
edwincheese
They just decided to take it down again after the People's Daily wrote about
it.

~~~
gigatexal
Wtf Apple

~~~
Nerdfest
This is a company that restricts what you can and can't install on your own
device and you're surprised they're okay with authoritarianism?

~~~
gigatexal
They restrict what you can install for example to protect users from
ransomware and surveillance capitalists and the like.

They are also always championing freedom and expression and the like. But they
must appease China to keep that market open to phone sales sadly.

~~~
noisem4ker
They also restrict what can compete with Apple's own products. Their interests
are clear.

------
duiker101
And 2 days ago I got down voted for making the point that Apple is trying to
slowly put macOS users in the same cage by nagging developers and pushing them
to their crappy store.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
In this regard, macOS works almost exactly how I wish the iPhone worked. Apple
makes a curated app store available to users which they monitor for security
and privacy violations, and they prevent the execution of unsigned code.

However, users can allow unsigned apps with a quick Terminal command, and even
grant them low-level privileges like kernel access with a somewhat less-quick
Terminal command.

~~~
duiker101
For now, yes, but it is clear that Apple is trying to change this, little by
little, they make it harder and harder until being outside of the App Store
will be so bad that they will eventually kill it. It's not something they can
do in one day, but they definitely want to get there.

------
skizm
Can the Waze app be used? It already has the built in functionality of
reporting police locations. Not sure how well it is supported or how many
people use it in HK though.

------
kumarharsh
But the app was also being used to track the whereabouts of law enforcement
officers, and the HK rioters have not exactly been peaceful.

I'm not usually on Apple's side. Their holier-than-thou marketing speak,
walled garden and crippled Safari browser are enough to send me to an early
grave with blood pressure. But I think Apple might be correct _in this
particular instance_ given the fraught nature of the situation there.

~~~
keyme
This is NOT a matter for a private company to decide on. That's the issue
here.

------
wtmt
Side loading of apps is a necessity in iOS/iPadOS/tvOS. I hope the various
lawsuits on Apple's controls have some effect on this. I understand the
benefits of the control Apple currently has, but it's inappropriate for our
needs as a society. Same goes for right to repair. I believe Apple is on the
wrong side of history on both these counts (at a minimum).

------
tikiman163
The whining about Apple is astounding. Nearly everyone complaining about the
lack of freedom of choice in here has an android phone and just wants to smarm
it up.

We get it, you warned them about the possibility of Apple doing this, only
that was never your point before. It's always been about the freedom to
develop without having to pay to do so. The fact the end user side was locked
on certain settings has never been about the possibility that Apple could
remove apps to aid a government agenda.

Personally I use Android too, but I'm a developer and never liked Apple's
development ecosystem. My point is the end user signed a terms of use when the
bought the phone and the majority of people complaining about this issue
didn't buy one because they didn't want to agree to it.

The majority of the whining going on here is no different than straight guys
complaining about the existence of gay guys. The issue doesn't affect you, and
your opinions are getting annoying.

------
helen___keller
It's time for businesses to treat China as a risk. China uniquely puts
businesses in a position where they must choose between violating their values
and violating their profits, and the recent spat of PR disasters have proven
that your values affect your bottom line as well.

China will put your business between a rock and a hard place. Price it in.

------
jonny_eh
They should re-publish on [https://altstore.io](https://altstore.io)

------
dmvinson
I would like to think the public back-and-forth over this app is a sign of
internal conflict within Apple over whether or not to list the app on the App
Store. Unfortunately, it seems more likely that everyone is against removing
it but too scared of China's retaliation to act on their convictions.

------
_coveredInBees
Ha! Just yesterday, everyone was talking about Apple as bastions of user
privacy, etc., only for them to put profit over principles AGAIN in less than
a week. It's just so shameful, but I guess that's capitalism working its magic
and putting shareholder profits above all else. Not that Apple is any
different from any other megacorp, but they sure do like to pretend like they
have principles and care about users. Turns out they only care for those who
don't threaten their bottom line.

~~~
helpPeople
I'm not sure how Apple does this, but they will promote a negative feature as
a positive thing.

Then their fan base, or astroturfers will share this idea whenever it comes
up.

I wonder how we will look back at Apple as we better understand the human
psychology.

------
mirimir
This will sound crazy, I know. And I'm 90% sure that it's unworkable. But I
gotta ask.

I've read that virtual iOS machines are available for testing apps. Tight
access control, I know. But ...

So with a beefy iPhone or tablet, could one run a tweaked iOS VM? The host
machine would handle Interactions with the cell network and Apple. And the
virtual iOs would handle userland and apps. And it could be tweaked to work
with a different company, use a different app store, etc. Basically be
independent from Apple. With it's own FDE etc.

It'd basically be a bunch of libraries, utilities and apps to install. Would
that be possible? I suppose that it would require liberating considerablr
source from Apple.

------
reaperducer
I find it so interesting that Apple removes an app to track police from Hong
Kong, when there are any number of apps that allow people to track police,
fire, ambulances, etc... still available in the American app store.

~~~
throw900
A related question: would Apple allow apps that track local law enforcement if
there were active protests + direct interactions with police.

As an example, imagine if there was an app allowing people to track police
movements during Occupy Wall Street and a single NYPD officer so much as
twisted his ankle. My guess (as a New Yorker) is that an app like that would
get pulled immediately.

Obviously this isn't to say it's the right move to remove the app, just that
things wouldn't be so different here in America.

But perhaps the protests in HK are so different in scale that the comparison
falls flat.

------
kerkeslager
It appears they have a web interface[1]. Is this interface still available to
protestors? Is there a way we can support them?

[1] [https://hkmap.live/](https://hkmap.live/)

------
rubatuga
Couldn't the maker of the app argue that this app is also used by people who
want to avoid protests and violence? And that Apple is now directly hurting
citizens by taking that protection away?

------
mrpopo
Can't they just use the website anyway?

[https://hkmap.live/#](https://hkmap.live/#)

Or is that blocked in China too? Does the great firewall affect HK as well?

~~~
tjpnz
The Great Firewall doesn't yet extend to HK though that likely won't last.

------
BLKNSLVR
Is this the same Apple that received tariff exemptions for items imported from
China? [https://9to5mac.com/2019/09/30/apple-mac-pro-us-
manufacturin...](https://9to5mac.com/2019/09/30/apple-mac-pro-us-
manufacturing/)

Looks like Apple are getting to have their cake and eat it too. It's good
business for the moment, but the wire they're dancing on seems to be getting
thinner by the day.

------
typeformer
The protesters should start using Waze...what will Apple do then?

~~~
_eht
Block Waze geospatially. EZPZ.

[Insert Taiwan flag emoji here]

~~~
dang
HN is a plain text site, so please don't put emojis in HN comments. Unless
they're plain text of course.

~~~
_eht
Alright well that ruined the context of the commentary. Unfortunate. And now I
can’t edit to make an appropriate adjustment. Neat.

HN will edit your comments but not let you delete your account? Interesting
precedent.

~~~
dang
I've opened your GP comment for editing if you'd like to make an appropriate
adjustment.

Account deletion is a separate question, of course. On HN we try hard to
balance individual interests, such as for privacy, with community interest,
such as other people's comments not losing the context they were replying to.
To judge by the reactions we hear from users, we're able to care of nearly
everything that nearly everyone needs. But it does require emailing us, rather
than using some mechanical feature that would just erase everything an account
had ever posted.

------
calibas
HKmap.live has a Twitter account, they've been posting frequent updates about
all this: [https://twitter.com/hkmaplive](https://twitter.com/hkmaplive)

Apparently China's trying to say it's Apple's fault:
[https://twitter.com/TMclaughlin3/status/1182301330339184641](https://twitter.com/TMclaughlin3/status/1182301330339184641)

------
excursionist
When you buy a closed device that you can only partially control this is what
you sign up for. The only reason this can happen is because the people who
this affects, materially support Apple in their ability to do this. Play
stupid games win stupid prizes.

[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/keep-control-of-your-
computin...](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/keep-control-of-your-
computing.en.html)

------
adam12
Why does this have to be an app in the App store? I wonder what APIs they are
using that can't be replaced by something that will work in the browser.

~~~
ccvannorman
Browser apps can't penetrate the Great China Firewall as China can simply ban
the domain

~~~
ReptileMan
Hong Kong internet is unfiltered. Actually the easiest way to have non stop
pure internet in mainland China is to have a HK prepaid sim card.

------
chvid
Isn't it just a wrapped website? You can just browse it directly at:

[https://hkmap.live](https://hkmap.live)

------
neop1x
That is a good reminder of the closeness of this ecosystem. Is it really your
device when you can't install your app on it? Ditch it! Hopefully protesters
have enough people with Androids... there are less and less reasons to use
iPhone now that Androids are pretty mature. It's sad that iOS still doesn't
even support royalty-free WEBM/VP9 because

------
kup0
Is there any truth to Apple's claims in their statement regarding why they
removed it?

EDIT- good questioning of Apple's reasoning:
[https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/cook-hkmap-
live...](https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/cook-hkmap-live-email)

------
castratikron
Seems like a good use case for the FDroid Nearby feature, host apps on your
phone and let other people download them. Make the whole thing FOSS and all of
a sudden it's a lot harder to block.

[https://f-droid.org/en/tutorials/swap/](https://f-droid.org/en/tutorials/swap/)

------
product50
Courage. And user privacy.

Tim Cook should just resign at this point with all his hypocrisy. I don't know
how he looks himself in the mirror with a straight gaze these days.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
I'm willing to bet the Ultra Large Container Vessel class boat-load of money
Apple is making helps there.

~~~
hesarenu
Doesn't apple have around 100 billion cash reserve. How much more do they
require?

~~~
atom058
All. They require all of the cash.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
That does appear to be the end-game.

------
vegan_zaddy
Removing this app was the only logical solution. Keeping it on the store would
have only added fuel to the fire. An app like this would be catastrophic for
any community, Hong Kong or not. Keeping it on the App store would have
allowed anyone to evade law enforcement and add even more damage that has
already been done by the rioters.

------
totaldude87
How come [https://hkmap.live/](https://hkmap.live/) is still online while the
app cannot? if GCF(Great china firewall) can block Quartz, they can block this
URL as well right?

thank god we still have an open web where few websites can still be there and
not inside a walled garden..

~~~
gmoot
Hong Kong is not behind the GCF.

------
stuffbyspencer
1- EU can tell Facebook to remove posts WORLDWIDE due to a politician's hurt
feelings. 2- Blizzard bans you for speaking your mind. 3- Apple removes apps
that support your right to freedom.

...I'm waiting for when we cross the line into "fuck this, something needs to
change" because, for me, that was 3 actions ago.

------
collyw
Is it possible for the average user to install this outside of the app store?
Or do you need a rooted phone for that?

~~~
SwiftyBug
If the code is open source one could compile it and run it directly on their
device. But they would need a Mac to build the code on Xcode.

~~~
jedimastert
Don't you also need some sort of developer license to side-load apps like
that?

~~~
uberduper
You can get a free developer account which will let you sign an app for 7
days. You just have to redo it every week.

------
noah-kun
Apps used by terrorist to target victims and plan attacks should absolutely be
removed from the App Store.

People fail to see these folks as terrorists but they're literally trained,
paid and lead by the same US politician who oversaw the Contra programs.

If you're a legitimate user of this site, please read: these attacks are
coordinated with the media which repeatedly calls them "clashes", "anger
boiling over", "confrontations" and "suppression (by the government)".

It's even easier to co-ordinate such messages online. Not a day goes by
without stories and comments about China on this site. There's little doubt
the same media coordination goes on in social media, including here. It's a
weakness--perhaps deliberate--in the Internet and how we build communities.

We are all worried about privacy, etc. But when has there ever been concern
over Western astro-turfing and manufacturing consent online? I've yet to see
it. Repeatedly we see stories of US/NATO intelligence infiltrating and abusing
power within social networks to manipulate perceptions.

Where is the platform the protests against this?

~~~
dictum
> It's even easier to co-ordinate such messages online. Not a day goes by
> without stories and comments about China on this site.

What shows up often is just as important as what's never seen, because it's
been censored.

China knows a thing or two about manufacturing consent and astroturfing, too.

------
dna_polymerase
Oh boy, they would have lynched Tim Cook for loosing China market access over
some freedom bullshit in Hong Kong.

No seriously, anybody surprised with Apple's reaction? Next time you see
Apple's privacy marketing keep this in mind. They will sell your privacy as
soon as their profits depend on it.

------
greatjack613
Honestly, I think we as in the United States have to think harder whether it
is worth sacrificing our beliefs in freedom to gain a few $$$ (edit: A lot of
$$$$$) from countries that don't provide their citizens with basic rights.

~~~
jsjolen
I disagree, I don't think we will ever do the right thing if the reward is big
enough. I think the right way to go is to dismantle these unnecessary power
structures that allow us to do the wrong choice and replace them with better
ones.

For example, Apple can only do this because they have the power to remove apps
from their store (fine) and because we do not have the power to install apps
which aren't from their store (not fine).

If the latter is fixed, then there would be no issue. HKers would be able to
install the map, and no one would be able to stop them - because no
unnecessary power structure that can be abused exists.

~~~
mikeg8
In regards to your second paragraph, I feel a certain dissonance. We have a
right to purchase the products we desire in a “free market” but at what point
do we have the right to dictate how that producer chooses to design their
product/platform ie. free installation of all applications. I think
technologists have a too idealistic view of software as a basic
right/liberating force without accepting companies should have the right make
decisions we strongly disagree with.

~~~
leereeves
Are you against requiring seat belts and emissions controls in cars? Requiring
homes to be built to code? Requiring utilities to provide water/power/gas to
products made by other companies?

Society regularly dictates how producers design their products. Technologists
aren’t used to that because lawmakers have been slow to catch up, and many
were intentionally hands off to foster the growth of the Internet, but the
Wild West days are over and civilization is coming to Silicon Valley.

~~~
mikeg8
Society regularly dictates how producers design their products, when it
effects the immediate physical safety and well-being of their citizens. I
think equating the Apple/HK issue to your other examples is a far stretch.

~~~
leereeves
From what I've seen of the behavior of police in HK, I think knowing where the
police are might well affect the immediate physical safety and well-being of
HK citizens.

------
pastorhudson
If revealing police locations is criteria for removing an app then I guess
Google Waze is next?

------
buboard
If a revolution relies significantly on the App Store to succeed, then maybe
its not really a revolution? Hopefully they 've found alternatives in the open
web. And maybe people will learn a lesson about the dangers of walled gardens.

------
dang
Related discussion from an earlier stage of this:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21159872](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21159872)

------
rahkiin
I started wondering whether Apple is playing a longer game here: \- Reject the
app: create media attention \- Accept the app: media attention, HKers can
download the app en-masse. \- Then a few days later comply to the CCP and
remove it from he store, but keeping it on the user devices. The app is still
usable by all those that downloaded it. They did not tell the CCP that they
_could_ block them on devices too.

This way HKers have the app but the Apple production chain in China is safe.
(And without that chain there are no iPhones anywhere).

I just don't see why Apple would make such a major PR screwup by rejecting and
THEN accepting only to reject it again. Would have been less issue if they
kept it rejected all along.

------
kd3
All these companies in the west seem to be so very eager to bend over and
spread their butt-cheeks for the criminal Chinese government. It's all about
the money it seems.

------
jaspergilley
Part of the problem when phones are inherently locked down. If you can't run
the software you want on a device you've purchased, it's not really your
device.

------
jasonlotito
This is not surprising consider Apple's past actions. I'm sure everyone that
gave up Blizzard games will now be giving up Apple products now.

------
olah_1
I wonder if they could use the Waze app for that...

------
gtirloni
If Apple didn't comply, what would be the direct consequences? Some Apple
executive in China goes to jail and never comes back?

------
minusf
not to excuse them, but i think apple has pulled a nice diplomatic move here.
the app was available long enough for many interested parties to install it
(using the same reasons, it could have been not approved from the start) but
also not aggravating the chineese government for too long. fighting the
leadership head on will never work on the long run.

------
Asterate
And when you think yesterday people were talking that at least apple is better
than blizzard.It didn't took long.

------
ReptileMan
Enjoy the benefits of locked bootloaders, walled gardens, no root, and
codesigning without control of the keys.

------
SubiculumCode
Google does it too, but at least you can install from other sources in
Android.

But shame on you Google/Apple. Shame on you.

------
La-ang
I am guessing if iOs is still prone to jailbreaks Apple can blacklist all they
can. Is Appcake still around?

------
steelframe
Waze also tracks police locations, and people use that information to decide
whether to break the law.

------
jchook
The Chinese government sure has given the Hong Kong protesters a lot of free
press (no pun intended)

------
jpttsn
Okay so we all hate this “censorship.” How can they punish all app users for
the potential wrongdoing of a few?

Meanwhile, remind me, how do we feel about gun sales in the US? If Target
takes a rifle off their shelves, will we exorcise Target? Thought experiment.

Is it really about the huge principle difference between apps and guns? Or are
we just generating principle-excuses to agree with our side?

~~~
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC
So, you have DRMed hands and only Target can sell guns that can be held by
those hands? Is that the analogy that you were building there?

~~~
jpttsn
Are you saying I bought my hands at Target? Or that people were born with
their iPhones?

------
camdenlock
Damn. I’m a long-time Apple customer, and general fan of their dev platform,
products, and services. In the back of my head, though, I’ve always had a
thought:

There will probably come a time when Apple does something that crosses a line
for me, something that doesn’t sit well with me, and causes me to disengage
from the teat.

That moment appears to have finally arrived.

------
alkonaut
Can’t this app just be a web app? I assume it’s a central web backend that the
app uses?

------
ic4l
It's still a mobile website, so they can just use a VPN to access it.

------
ycombonator
What if China pressures Cloudflare, Akamai, AWS ? Where does this end ?

------
NicoJuicy
It's weird.

Apple censors Apps.

The Ccp censors app contents, from approved apps.

So, who is really in charge then...

------
to-too-two
Hong Kong, don’t ever forget when Apple turned its back on you.

------
hmart
Open web to the rescue.

------
asdf333
surprising this is so low given the number of points... i wonder if there is a
chinese downvote brigade in action here trying to suppress this story

------
ishikawa
If their customers want it, it should not be removed.

~~~
the-pigeon
Beyond that there's a fundamental issue that app store monopolies should be
illegal. All marketplaces need competition.

Apple doesn't have the right to choose what I get to install on my phone.

------
avatarbl
What do you expect Apple to do ? Pull out of China ?

------
cletus
So I joined Google in 2010 (and left in 2017). One of the things that I deeply
respected at the time was Google's stance on China.

Google pulled out of China in 2010 in response to a hack that is widely
believed to be state-sponsored by China and probably aimed at getting to the
Gmail accounts of dissidents although I've seen no official confirmation of
this internally or externally.

I respect the position that Google didn't want to be enable Chinese censorship
and essentially support a totalitarian and repressive regime (and before
anyone argues China isn't this, ask the Uighurs in Xianjing what they think).

China has decided for better or for worse that they're not going to let any
foreign company control any market in China. This is why you have Alibaba,
Baidu, Tencent, Wechat, Huawei and so on rather than Amazon, Google, Facebook
or Apple.

Part of me respects the desire to maintain sovereignty essentially. After all,
China has a long history here with the Japanese, the British and countless
others and you can't forget that.

But what I don't get is how Western governments and companies simply either
don't understand this or don't want to.

No Western company will succeed in China because the Chinese government will
ensure that it won't happen. Period.

As soon as you understand this the tantalizing carrot of a market of 1B people
is revealed for the lie that it is and your choices actually become a lot
easier.

Now obviously for the likes of Apple, this is complicated because we're not
just talking about a market to sell goods but their entire supply chain.

I, like others here and elsewhere, have valued Apple's stance on user privacy
but make no mistake, it is self-serving and directly entirely at Google's
business model. And where you see Apple capitulate to Beijing here (which is
exactly what happened) you see why: because Apple's relationship to China is
the pillar that their business is built on. I fully expect other tech
companies to counter Apple's attack on their business model by attacking Apple
on China for exactly the same reasons.

Sometimes the only way to win is not to play and I guarantee you you won't
"win in China'.

~~~
xibalba
> we're not just talking about a market to sell goods but their entire supply
> chain.

This is a critical and massively overlooked consideration. China has huge
leverage over Apple because of this.

------
wishinghand
Would AltStore be able to help them out?

------
jmull
What a disgrace

------
sharkenstein
Could it be installed via the Alt Store?

------
nyxtom
Don’t forget the Quartz app as well

------
pgt
I wonder what China threatened Apple with?

Because this makes me want to not buy another iPhone.

Sorry Apple, you can't bet on both sides of the same coin.

------
ausjke
we all bend for money, everything else is just a sugarcoat for getting more
money I guess.

~~~
ReptileMan
As the old jokes goes - we already figured out what you are, we are just
haggling over the price.

------
potatofarmer45
The Chinese Government shakedown works like the mob. First they ask for a
small favor, and then as you get deeper and deeper in the web, the demands
increase. If you've already censored the NYTimes, then Quartz, why not a maps
app?

It's time the world took collective action (which we're beginning to see) to
push back before self-censorship with the threat of coordinated "spontaneous
patriotism" creates a new norm where apps that empower hate by the Chinese
state is "acceptable" like WeChat and all other apps are banned for frivolous
reasons.

~~~
baybal2
This

I met a lot of very self confident American entrepreneurs, over the years, who
come to China thinking that they can play their game here.

Believe me, an average CPC section chief by mid-30 will have an arsenal of
political stratagem to outplay any of those guys. Even though may look inept,
they are on completely different level when it comes to your mindgames.

Your best bet in this game is not to play it. My own take on it as somebody
who's been here for quite some time: the less you see them, the better.

------
avocado4
[https://hkmap.live/](https://hkmap.live/)

------
taf2
Why does this need to be an app? Can’t this all be built into a web page?

------
idlewords
Why has this story been spiked from the front page?

~~~
epaga
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21211084](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21211084)

------
aussieguy1234
This is a good reason to never buy apple. You never know when you might need
to install an app banned by your government. At least on Android you can
install apps from unofficial sources.

~~~
moogleii
If the metric is to circumvent or bypass your government, Android is hardly an
ideal option either. It very easily also would fall under the "never buy."

~~~
Illniyar
Thats's nonsense. You can install any app you want and google has no way of
deleting it from your phone.

You can root your phone or install completely different OSes.

It may not be ideal but it will definitely aid you in circumventing the
government.

~~~
kalleboo
> _google has no way of deleting it from your phone_

Is there any reason to believe that Google's "remote application removal
feature" is limited to working on Market apps and not any arbitrary bundle ID?
[https://android-
developers.googleblog.com/2010/06/exercising...](https://android-
developers.googleblog.com/2010/06/exercising-our-remote-application.html)

~~~
lern_too_spel
At worst, you can install an application firewall on any Android phone to
block all connections to Google.

------
tibbydudeza
This is their Blizzard moment.

So Apple are just the same as Google , Facebook and the rest of them , top
please their shareholders for the almighty buck.

So the lesson here is to rather use the Android platform if you want
"freedom".

~~~
s3r3nity
> So Apple are just the same as Google...

> So the lesson here is to rather use the Android platform if you want
> "freedom".

I doubt you're going to get much more "freedom" from a Google owned platform
if you think the two companies are just as bad...unless you're prepared to
root the device to hell to the point of almost replacing the OS completely.

SIDEBAR: Facebook is banned in China, partly because FB didn't want to comply
with the censorship / surveillance requirements, iirc. Though someone who has
more knowledge of the situation could probably clarify. Nevertheless I'm not
sure why you lumped them into the actions of Apple or Google.

~~~
Andrew_nenakhov
At least on Android you can (at least, for now) load an .apk from a developer
website,or install an alternative store, or even F-droid.

Apple must be coerced by law to allow app sideloading and third-party app
stores on iOS devices.

------
fallingfrog
Hey guys capitalism is going to protect us from dictators. Corporations are
our friends. ..Guys?

------
tru3_power
Woah this is crazy. I don’t buy their excuse. You mean to tell me they didn’t
investigate the app the first time it was removed, or when they decided to
reinstate it? Come on, give me a fucking break...

~~~
ladberg
Complete speculation, but maybe Apple wants people to use the app while having
plausible deniability by removing it from the store. Banning the app for the
first time made it incredibly popular, so a huge number of people would have
probably downloaded it as soon as it came back on the store. Then, after a
bunch of people download it, they ban it again to appease China. I bet more
people downloaded the app this way than if they had just banned it today for
the first (and only) time.

------
hamandcheese
Why is this story already off the front page?

Currently 117 points in 1 hour, yet somehow behind “The Origin of the Foot
Rail” with 39 points in 7 hours.

~~~
__m
> Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That
> destroys intellectual curiosity, the value of the site.

~~~
self_awareness
HN is pretty much a mono-ideological site, from what I've witnessed. Any topic
which triggers ideological discussion could be good for HN in my opinion.

------
api
Imagine instead that this reads "After Trump tweet, Apple removes app used by
border protestors."

That's exactly what this is.

In a way the China thing is even worse because Apple is not a Chinese company.
There is realistically more Trump could do to harm Apple than the CCP.

Of course I suppose Apple has outsourced all their manufacturing to China, so
there's that. I must admit a bit of schadenfreude at watching the great greed-
driven amoral outsourcing rush of the past 50 years start backfiring badly as
I knew it always would.

------
droithomme
I recall something similar happening once.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust)

Something of a pattern over history of some technology firms really enjoying
colluding with totalitarian states in order to facilitate mass human rights
abuses. It's highly profitable for one thing and for another they know they
will never be held accountable. At most issue a press release decades from now
saying that it is with sadness they reflect on findings that certain
regrettable things may have happened in the distant past.

~~~
Shaddox
I think it's far more agnostic than that.

As long as an entity has enough money and a wish, there will be someone
willing to grant it.

------
Danieru
Democracy cannot be bought with money, so any corporation selling out a
people's right to self determination for money is pure immorality.

All of us who enjoy the self rule through democracy should not dismiss our
hard won rights as an "opinion". The right to vote for your leader, even a
"wrong leader" is an inalienable right. Oppressive regimes like China have do
not have the mandate to rule. The mandate to rule comes from the people, and
single part China is nothing more than the party of warlords.

Yes the flashpoint is Hong Kong, but all Chinese people deserve democratic
elections. Hong Kong just happens to already be legally owed these rights. The
rights all humans deserve.

This is not a controversial "opinion", this is the foundation upon which all
modern democracies are formed. All humans deserve the right of self rule, and
authority comes from the people.

Many of you reading this get to say your forefathers fought for democracy. I
wish I could say that, my forefathers were on the wrong side of the fight for
democracy. My grand father got shot near Normandy, he was a 14 year old Nazi
soldier standing watch. He was wrong to fight for the Nazis, just as any of us
are wrong if we sell out another people's rights to democracy.

------
thewholeview
Apple has actually been quite smart here. Everyone knows the limiting
condition that we are seeing in the world right now. What Apple has achieved
is to allow the app to be downloaded for several days and then to make an
appeasement. We see a similar strategy used by NBA in recent times. It is
undoubted that such a play will receive flame from both sides, but as such
they haven't really taken sides and yet also have answered to calls.

------
mikestew
I'm willing to believe this is just a delay so that Apple can get their people
off the mainland, and then put the app right back in the store when everyone
is safe. I don't even know that that's practical, and it's probably just a
dream anyway. Beats my alternative theory at the moment, however.

~~~
Cshelton
Pulling all of their people out of China, along with operations will take some
time. Not a small delay. They have already started to diversify manufacturing
elsewhere though.

------
UIZealot
It helps to know a _little_ bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong,
before you all decide to line up and take your daily dump on China.

It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and
fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the
Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these
crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions in the region, including
Taiwan and mainland China.

The proposed law even explicitly stated that it's not applicably to crimes
political in nature. But some HK people were nevertheless concerned that it
might be abused by China to target political dissidents in HK.

So they have taken to the streets to protest that law. As a result, the law
was quickly suspended before it had a chance to pass, and a few weeks ago the
HK Chief Executive officially announced the withdrawal of the law.

However, despite the concession from the HK government, the protesters pressed
on, demanding four more concessions from the government, chief among them
universal suffrage, or the direct election of the HK Chief Executive, who up
to this point have been nominated from a narrow pool of Beijing-approved
candidates, then voted on by a committee.

It's not entirely clear that China even had anything to do with the proposal
of the law which started this ordeal. But the protesters have been shrewd to
paint a picture, to great effect, of big bad China stomping on the poor
helpless people of HK.

What I cannot stress enough, is the rampant _violence and destruction_ from
these protesters, which has done this great city, and many innocent citizens,
unimaginable harm. Feel free to support their _peaceful_ protests, but please
don't simply pile on and encourage these violence and destruction.

If anything I said is untrue, please correct me. Use the truth to argue your
side, don't be a coward and hide behind your downvote.

~~~
roca
That is a very one-sided summary. For example you omitted the important fact
that Taiwan's government very early made it clear that they did not want the
extradition law. You omitted any mention of police violence. You omitted how
China pressured Cathay Pacific to identify and punish its staff involved in
(peaceful, legal) protests. You decline to explain why the HK government
refused to officially withdraw the extradition law for months after declaring
it "dead". Etc.

~~~
UIZealot
That's the gist of it. Of course I omitted a _lot_ of things, and not all of
them are in the protesters's favor either.

> You omitted how China pressured Cathay Pacific to identify and punish its
> staff involved in (peaceful, legal) protests.

A pilot who took part in _violent_ protests was barred from flying in China's
air space.

Some other employee who _illegally_ leaked customer information where
disciplined or fired.

Please tell us how those punishments are unfair.

> You omitted any mention of police violence.

The police were never violent before the protesters got violent. They simply
responded in kind. You think they should just stand still and take the
beating/burning?

> you omitted the important fact that Taiwan's government very early made it
> clear that they did not want the extradition law.

> You decline to explain why the HK government refused to officially withdraw
> the extradition law for months after declaring it "dead".

The chief executive officially announced its withdrawal about a month ago.

How are you going to justify the continuing violence and destruction since
then?

------
faitswulff
The app was reinstated:

> Following the outcry, Apple decided to admit the HKmap.live app to the App
> Store yesterday, where it is now available to download. The app developers
> were happy with this outcome, saying that they believed the decision was
> more of a bureaucratic issue rather than a political decision and writing,
> “We understand @Apple have many business considerations, but since they
> already make thing right I don’t see any point to keep pressing.”

Source: [https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-
map...](https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-map/)

~~~
NeedMoreTea
This is a follow-on to that, it's been removed _again._

~~~
faitswulff
Ah, thanks. And very disappointing.

