

Making Online Notarization Legal - caseya
http://blog.signnow.com/2012/07/08/the-struggle-to-make-online-notarization-legal/

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bradleyland
That was a great read. Some of the author's enthusiasm comes across a bit
campy at points, but in general, they seem justified in casting themselves as
pariahs.

The whole scenario is a collission of off-color concerns. On one hand, you
have notaries and the notary establishment (yeah, I made that up) fighting to
save their place in the market. Then you have lawmakers who see it, fail to
understand it, and are then lobbied by the aforementioned establishment. Then
you've got consumers like PG who are (rightfully) on edge about the legality
and scam-factor associated with the idea. Everyone is watching this out of the
corner of their eye, defaulting to the position that something is fishy.

Notarization is something business people are trained to treat with some
reverence. The entire concept of a signature as an agent of identification is
a bit bizzare when you think about it. Your signature is not a secret, but it
remains a critical security element. Notarization is a hack. It's another
layer of the same thing varnishing over the whole "signature means agreement"
show. Yet it's so simple, and so engrained in our way of conducting business
that any attempt to change it freaks everyone out. Fascinating.

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terryk88a
I'm really excited to see this concept made real.

Based on comments here, multi-factor (non-wallet) authentication is used to
identify the parties. This method of ID verification is a technique that I
helped pioneer at Equifax many years ago, and I've been disappointed that it
hasn't ever really seemed to take off before. I occasionally see it in use
here and there, but now really expect it to be recognized for its value. Not
perfect for every case, but a useful tool nonetheless.

Cheers and way to go!

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lesterbuck
I was disturbed to see that pg killed an earlier thread on this company, on a
rather flimsy basis. The financial industry is obviously ripe for disruption,
but if those being disrupted can kick up enough dust to have HN erase all
memory of a new idea, we have a bigger problem.

~~~
tzs
It was not a flimsy basis. The site was specifically claiming online
notarization was legal in all states, if I recall correctly[1].

It is NOT legal in California.

They now appear to have modified their claims. As far as I can see, they only
say online signing is legal, not online notarization.

[1] The Internet Archive has not crawled them since 2009, when the domain
appears to have been used for something completely different, so I can't check
to be sure exactly what they said and what has changed.

~~~
aisalwaysa
You're not understanding the facts, online notarization IS legal in
California... the notaries themselves can't be in California, but the signers
can.

Signers can notarize from anywhere in the world, including California, since
the notaries follow Virginia law. It's like how lenders and credit companies
often use Utah law (but can lend elsewhere) or corporations incorporate in
Delaware.

~~~
tzs
The California Secretary of State says: "California law requires a person to
appear personally before a notary public to obtain notarial acts like
acknowledgments or jurats".

~~~
aisalwaysa
Yes, if you are a CALIFORNIA NOTARY than you must follow their requirements.
NOT if you are a Virginia Notary, then you follow Virginia Law, and your
clients, wherever they are in the world, adhere to your Virginia requirements.

~~~
tzs
There have been many cases of state courts rejecting out of state
notarizations that did not comply with the requirements of the state in which
the court sits.

There was a bill a few years ago in Congress that tried to make it so that
states would have to honor out of state notarizations, but this bill was
vetoed. Until such a bill is signed into law, or either the 9th Circuit or the
Supreme Court rules that states must accept out of state notarizations that do
not meet the in-state notary requirements, then any notarization in which you
are not present is questionable in California.

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mchusma
I'm excited to see online notarization occur. Traditional, pen-and-ink
notaries really shouldn't exist in today's age.

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rprasad
I flagged this before and I am going to flag this again: this service is _not
legal_ in any state _except Virginia_ and will not satisfy the in-person
verification requirements of any state (except Virginia, which does not
require in-person verification of identity). This does not mean the service is
illegal; it simply means that this service cannot be used for any legal
purposes in any state or federal jurisdiction (except Virginia).

There is a reason this service is not, nor will it ever be disruptive--it does
not address the core underpinnings of the notary system: verification of
documents and identities. Online identify verification using inaccurate third
party verification databases is not sufficient to prove identity for _any_
purposes. Holding up a document or id card to a webcam does not allow for
sufficient examination by the notary of the document or card showed to prove
that the document or id card is what it is alleged to be.

Indeed, this system would actually aggravate the notarization scam problem it
claims to address.

Going digital does not solve every problem. Most people at HN may not realize
this, but there are a lot of situations where things cannot be done through a
computer.

~~~
aisalwaysa
You are factually incorrect, and you are a big part of the problem here.

If you are a signer, you can go online now to signnow.com, sitting at Paul
Graham's desk IN CALIFORNIA and legally notarize your document. It will be
legally notarized by a Virginia Notary, and your notarization is 100% legal
everywhere in the US.

"The service is not legal in any state except Virginia" just means the
NOTARIES must be sitting in Virginia, again, the clients can be anywhere.
Interstate commerce, and the National Association of Secretaries of State have
proven support for accepting other state's notarizations.

Regarding identification, you should read the law, and try signnow's service
since it does NOT rely on holding up an ID card for identity. The law
requires, and signnow uses, out of wallet verification questions from a third
party provider to verify identity. Anything else done is above and beyond the
law, and is FAR ABOVE what currently occurs with the inconsistency of pen and
paper notarizations.

