
$4k Renault compared to Tesla Model 3 - Osiris30
http://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/12579/why-this-4000-renault-is-as-disruptive-as-the-tesla-model-3?xid=twittershare
======
smcg
One of the reasons why the Renault Kwid is $4000 is because, well, it uses
cheap materials, and with that comes a very bad safety rating. This is enabled
by India's nearly non-existent car safety regulations. Everything has a
"price".

~~~
weeksie
Ahhh safety, driving, and the developing world. Ugh. I haven't tested the
hypothesis but I think the switch from mopeds to cars has resulted in a huge
number of traffic fatalities. This was super evident in Thailand as it's quite
clear that non tuk-tuk/rickshaw or motorcycle transport is a very new thing.
There's an obliviousness to the fact that they're driving thousands of pounds
of steel and nobody else on the road is protected in the same way.

India's drivers are actually pretty awesome, but they've had cars for a lot
longer. Still. More people driving and perhaps being the first in their
families to actually own a car means bad news.

Not that I see any good solution other than waiting a few generations,
widespread driver's ed is probably cost prohibitive. Still. Ugh.

~~~
gnarmis
You may find this interesting:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-
related_death_rate)

Sorting by the second column gives a good picture about which country has more
dangerous drivers. And Thailand is #2... so your claim tracks well against
this reality.

~~~
m_mueller
Also interesting: The US has about two thirds the amount of fatalities by 100k
people compared to India. I.e. the US should first improve its own stats
before trying to school anyone else, especially considering that countries
like the UK show that it could be improved 4-fold.

~~~
swimfar
Comparing fatalities per 100k people seems like a pretty useless statistic
when we're talking about safety standards. If you look at fatalities per
100,000 motor vehicles it's 12.9 compared to 130. So 10x as much. An even
better statistic to use would be fatalities per 1 billion vehicle miles. But
that data isn't available for India.

~~~
jdavis703
Non-motorized transportation options aren't counted in vehicle miles. So
accidents involving pedastrians, bicycles and other bystanders would skew this
some. Since car accidents don't just hurt other motorists it's useful to
measure this against the total population.

~~~
skinnymuch
Is it not useful to look at both the statistic you mention along with the ones
you responded to? They may not be equal in importance, but merit some
consideration, no?

------
krishicks
Crash test results: 0 stars

[https://youtu.be/jePu-6TxypI](https://youtu.be/jePu-6TxypI)

Reminds me of the Tata Nano (also 0 stars):
[https://youtu.be/buMXtGoHHIg](https://youtu.be/buMXtGoHHIg)

~~~
abawany
Compare this to a 80s Mercedes 190:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw1GNfA_AnU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw1GNfA_AnU)
. The passenger cell remains solid though the crash dummies experience
injuries. I often wonder how much better the automotive market would be if
solid designs remained in circulation instead of these new-old mistakes re-
entering the market every time.

~~~
lucaspiller
In a lot of post-Soviet countries, rather than buying new, they import second-
hand cars from Western European countries and keep them running. If you have
skilled mechanics, and a steady stream of spare parts (from everyone else
importing the same cars), it's quite easy to keep your car running up to
300,000km or beyond.

The other week I was in Armenia, and although the average wage is $400/mo, you
see more BMWs and Mercedes on the road than you do in the U.K. Admitidely the
climate helps, as you don't need to worry about rust in most of country.

~~~
abawany
This is a smart plan. A 20 year old MB has technology that is now finally
trickling into modern pedestrian cars, such as electronic start key, 5 speed
automatic, and side airbags.

------
thinkloop
So painful to read this article. How did it get on the front page? Is it that
it's funny how confidently the author has no idea what "disrupt" means?

Summary: new car introduced at same price as current leading car in category,
but with a bit more room and slightly nicer, and they give you cake when you
pick it up.

Literally, that's the whole article.

~~~
alexchantavy
For the below paragraphs alone I think this article is more than deserving of
the front page:

> Short of a supercar delivery, I have never witnessed such time and effort
> spent on a customer. Actually, that’s the jaded American in me talking.
> Power Renault Kattupakkam didn’t spend this time and effort. They devoted
> it. They invested it, in a way merely given lip service during the sales
> training most American salespeople allegedly get, and which clearly isn't
> building goodwill with customers.

> In the US, everything about the car ownership experience — from research to
> negotiation to delivery to service — has been utterly and depressingly
> commoditized. Any positive emotional relationship between sellers and buyers
> has been sacrificed on the altar of efficiency. With rare exceptions —
> generally limited to the ultra high-end — the American buying experience is
> a circle of resentment. It’s I want your time vs. I don’t have much time.

I'm tired of feeling jaded about the American car buying experience so hearing
something like this is very refreshing.

~~~
hosh
It is so weird seeing all these comments focused on price, perceived lack of
quality, or how the article is link bait. The most important comparison
between that $4000 car and Tesla is in the sales model, the delivery, and what
happens after.

I was fascinated by the priest coming in to conduct puja as part of
ceremonially handing the car over to the new owners. While it probably won't
fly in America, it is this blending of modern and traditional that is lacking
when we commoditized everything.

------
jefb
_What Is Disruption, Anyway? ... In India, where the average wage remains a
fraction of those in the first world, it starts with an affordable car that
isn’t a complete piece of junk._

5 Paragraphs later:

 _It would be the same price as the sector-leading Maruti Suzuki, but with
more space. It would include a 7” infotainment system with a touchscreen. It
would have real ground clearance. It would resemble a smaller version of
Renault’s wildly popular Duster SUV._

New sexy features don't make something disruptive. Sure, it may pan out to be
a popular vehicle, but disruptive? because it has infotainment?... spare us.

~~~
nobodyorother
The point of the article is that disruption depends on market. Infotainment in
India might be like the "not-getting-beaten-up-for-overbooking" of United.

------
renaudg
Anyone else feeling slightly uneasy with the exciting and "disruptive" plan of
ushering a population of 1.3 billion into the glorious era of the fossil-
fuelled car ?

Seems exactly what the world needs right now.

~~~
dx034
Just because the "developed" world has already brought us 90% to irreversible
damage doesn't mean that we should deny cars to people who couldn't afford
them previously. I'm sure that those cars will be sold as EVs as soon as
that's feasible. Meanwhile countries that have the money could probably do
more to reduce emissions. India's efforts to reduce emissions (i.e. increase
them less) look extremely ambitions given their budget.

~~~
kerbalspacepro
I'm pretty sure that being brought up to 90%* irreversible damage is actually
a perfectly legitimate reason to deny cars to people who couldn't afford them
previously.

------
dalbasal
I don't get what this article is trying to say.

 _“In India,” he said, “you cannot look or be strange. Choosing a new entrant
is a risk. You have to be careful with your money. A new product must be
different.”_

Isn't this contradicting itself? What I understood from this article is (1)
Renault are selling the cheapest possible _standard_ looking car and (2) They
do localized, ritualistic sales & delivery which appeals to their buyers.

Seems to me that this is a story about a car that isn't trying to disrupt
anything or be any more radical than absolutely necessary to meet its
price/cost goals. It is trying to bring standard low cost Renaults to India.

The article mentions the Tata Nano, a more radical low cost concept. It could
also have mentioned the Twizy, Renault's current attempt at a tiny lower cost
car radically different from other models. Both of these stretch the standard
definition of "car" and you might call them disruption attempts. The Kwid is
explicitley trying to do the opposite.

The current suite of car types (budget hatchback, family sedan, SUV..) is
fairly stable. This is probably because use cases have remained the same, the
technology has remained similar & underlying economic factors of production
haven't changed much.

Two things could change that: EV technology & AV technology, especially AV.

For example, if most passenger cars are autonomous taxis, we might see more
specialized designs. Slow, single seaters for urban travel. Larger comfort
vehicles for longer distance travel.. etc. That would be disruptive.

------
dgudkov
This article should be viewed not from a point of _technology_ disruption, but
from a point of _marketing_ disruption. The correct analogy would be with
Lexus rather than Tesla (apparently the latter was brought in purely for extra
clickbaitness). Lexus offered no technical innovation, however gained supply
chain optimizations allowed Toyota to launch a car that offered significantly
more value per money then it was common for the market at that time. A flavor
of exclusivity together with non-exclusive price tag made Lexus a huge
marketing success. So is the Kwid marketing disruption? Could be. If it's a
right product for the right market - why not? Is the parallel with Tesla
relevant? Absolutely not, because Tesla is known first of all as a technology
break-through. Of course, good marketing & PR played huge role for the Tesla's
success, but it's still secondary. All in all, the article is about a
successful product/market fit case. It has nothing to do with technology
advances.

------
justin66
"How are we going to get anyone to read this article we wrote about a boring,
shitty car? I know, gratuitous Tesla comparisons!"

------
touristtam
I completely disagree; Renault when buying Dacia, bought a company capable to
produce a compact car at a ridiculously low price on an industrial platform
that was proven (Clio) and on a market segment that is the bread and butter of
all major European car manufacturer. However the same car was sold at almost
twice the price within the EU single market as it was outside it. Before that,
you had the experience of FIAT with a single platform produced in Europe (FIAT
Uno) and South America (Fiat Palio). It was a commercial success for the
company. However, the price for the Palio was lower than the Uno, as it was
targetting developing market. The more mature market are not benefiting from
technological development from those cars, as they are based on proven
platform (read already paid for), or from the price reduction, as the
competition is locked in place, and an aggressive price politic might actually
be detrimental to the product perception. This is without even mentioning the
cartel like behaviour or European car manufacturer.

~~~
netgusto
I think you miss the point of the article, which is about Renault finding in
India an opportunity to be as disruptive as Tesla is in the First World, with
diametrally opposed products, but similar appeal to their respective markets
by proposing an affordable yet radically new product.

~~~
uniformlyrandom
But there is nothing new about cheap small under-powered cars. [We've had them
since
1950s]([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant)).

------
pavel_lishin
That ceremony looks monstrously tiring to an introverted westerner like me. I
don't want to cut a cake and watch a priest bless my car; I want to walk onto
a lot, look over the car I pre-selected online to make sure it's the right
one, and then give someone some money and drive away.

I'm also wondering how long that friendly attitude - and the traveling pop-up
repair program - will last. Once everyone wants one of these, you no longer
have to cajole people.

~~~
dmode
It's pretty common in India to take your new car to the temple and get it
blessed.

~~~
vacri
Interesting that in the photos, the priest is the least 'dressed-up' of all of
them.

~~~
lazy12340987
That's because, he definitely is not a priest, he is most likely an employee
at the dealership. Im an Indian, that guying doing the puja doesnot resemble a
Pujari (priest), Hindu pujari's have a very traditional dressing style. I feel
that the writer was either unaware or just adding masala(spicing up) to his
article by claiming him to be a priest.

------
zwieback
They mention using a single Indian supplier and designing for that supplier as
an advantage. Where I work we wouldn't be allowed to do that - always want at
least two different suppliers so we don't put ourselves at risk.

Hope it works out for them - seems like a fun little car.

~~~
abawany
Also, the Takata airbag debacle affecting a variety of automakers but
primarily Honda (1) is an example of how using a single supplier and
developing relationships can be a bad plan.

1: [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-honda-results-
idUSKCN0Y40...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-honda-results-
idUSKCN0Y40UD)

------
5_minutes
I was just watching on ViceLand an episode about the Indian (non-existent)
sewage system. Millions of people there have no sanitation facilities and
deficate anywhere, where possible. And are living of a few dollars a month.
It's really worthwhile watching, btw.

So talking about "quality cars" for $4000 here seems totally surreal. And that
that would be disruptive is even more of a strange observation.

The author sure has an interesting story to tell, but the conclusions, title
etc of the article shows of actual lacking good journalism/storytelling.

~~~
rokhayakebe
Please keep in mind India has one of the, if not the, largest middle class
population in the world.

~~~
5_minutes
Can you verify that with some sources/stats? And what's your definition of a
"middle class" in India?

~~~
sien
Presumably using the definition of spending $4 to $6 a day.

[https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/6-surprising-facts-
ab...](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/6-surprising-facts-about-india-
s-exploding-middle-class/)

However, there are other estimations around that make India's middle class
much smaller, say ~25M

[http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-
affairs/ind...](http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-
affairs/indian-middle-class-is-24-million-not-264-million-credit-
suisse-115102900181_1.html)

------
EngineerBetter
Kinda off-topic: I own a Renault Zoe, which is an EV hatchback that you can
get second-hand for about £4k, and also a Tesla Model X 90D.

People get far too excited by Tesla's brand, when there are really competitive
EVs out there.

Feel free to AMA about EVs or how mine compare.

~~~
jpkeisala
How is the charging time and mileage on Zoe vs. Model X?

~~~
EngineerBetter
At home we have a 7kW charger (the most we could get without having to change
either the main fuseboard in the house, or have stuff dug up).

That gives the Zoe a charge-time of just over three hours (as we have a 22kWh
battery) versus over 13 hours for the Model X. That's 35 miles of charge an
hour for the Zoe, and 21 miles of charge an hour for the Model X.

The Zoe can fast-charge at up to 43kW on motorway service stations, whilst the
Model X and charge at 120kW. In the UK there are way more locations with fast-
chargers the Zoe can use than there are Tesla superchargers.

------
gambiting
All the article is telling me is that American dealership experience must be
incredibly shitty. We bought a brand new VW Polo here in the UK(and Polo is
the cheapest VW car you can buy here), on the delivery day it was waiting for
us in the dealership wrapped in ribbons, my partner got a massive bouquet of
flowers, there were cards saying "happy new car day <partner's name>", and two
sales assistants spent a lot of time with us showing us every bit of the car.
That sounds pretty similar to the experience described in the article, minus
the religious parts.

------
StreamBright
Is a cheap car what we call disruption in 2017, really? We know that cars do
not scale, look at LA traffic. Seems like a pretty bad idea to replicate the
same problems to the 3rd world.

~~~
snambi
Cars for India is really stupid idea, where most people keep their cars parked
for 99.99% of the time.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Is this not the case in most places?

------
apo
This doesn't sound like marketplace disruption as described by Christensen.

Under his model, the marketplace disruptor attacks from the bottom. The
challenging product is demonstrably, objectively _worse_ in one or more ways
than the incumbent.

If introduced into the US, the Kwid would indeed be a marketplace disruptor.
But in India, where the article itself points out that relatively few cars are
driven, the Kwid is a luxury item.

In this view, neither anything Tesla has offered nor the Kwid should be
considered disruptive. They're both vulnerable to a determined, capable
incumbent.

------
zubairq
To say that this is unsafe is incorrect. It would be unsafe in the west
compared to other cars, but in India compared to other cars and motorbikes
that riders have as an option the Renault actually INCREASES safety
dramatically

~~~
kerbalspacepro
They increase safety in the short-term. As the number of automobiles goes up,
they become more dangerous. Essentially,

safety = mass of your car / average mass of collisionable vehicles + C, where
C is a constant that describes how safe the car would be driving the road
alone

The safest world is one where you have a tank and everybody else walks.

------
kn0where
On the plus side, given India's traffic, maybe this criminally-unsafe car will
rarely drive fast enough to be dangerous?

------
rwmj
This is something I've always wondered, why are even the cheapest cars (in the
Western world) so expensive? Isn't it possible to make a new car under ~
$10,000?

~~~
danhak
Safety requirements. Here's a crash test between a 2015 Nissan Tsuru, the
least expensive sedan sold by Nissan in Mexico, and a 2016 Nissan Versa, the
least expensive sedan sold by Nissan in the United States.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0)

~~~
unethical_ban
Put a 2017 Nissan Versa against a 2017 Harley Davidson. They're both allowed
on the road.

I've wondered if less safe vehicles (lighter, cheaper, smaller) could be made
and required NOT to be on high speed roadways (above 45mph, freeways, etc.),
or just have the US admit their regs are too strenuous.

~~~
F2
Did you know you can buy baby formula in third world countries for a fraction
of the price here? All because evil regulations make companies make use actual
safe ingredients and manufacturing practices.

When will this big government madness end. When will the US admit their regs
are too strenuous so we can finally buy our cut rate industrial runoff baby
formula in peace.

~~~
unethical_ban
Your comment isn't up to HN standards, and it also misses the point. We
already allow two-wheeled death machines on freeways, and we allow people to
ride them without helmets, and we allow children to ride as passengers.

Your sarcasm would have made a valid point if modern sedans were the low bar
in vehicular safety in the US.

~~~
HiroshiSan
I thought it was illegal to ride a motorcycle/bicycle without a helmet? I'm
trying to find a flaw in your argument...but it's not easy. Though I feel as
if we shouldn't go back on safety standard progress just because there is a
subset of vehicles where there's not much we can do in terms of the
vehicle...but I'm sure there is a lot we can do in terms of what the rider
wears.

------
MBlume
I think this article would be substantially improved by removal of references
to Tesla or "disruption".

The stuff about the Renault is interesting, but all the "what these unthinking
Musk fanboys don't realize..." is obnoxious and doesn't add anything to the
article.

------
hnnsj
I confessed I skimmed most of the article, but am I fair if I say that it
makes the point that electrification is just a nice-to-have feature for rich
western hipsters? And nowhere does it raise the issue of the global
environmental issues if millions and millions of additional combustion
engines? At least there's cake...

------
walrus01
One thing that is not mentioned in the article at all, other than the
existence of scooters, is that specifically a huge number of them are 2-stroke
gasoline engines which are incredibly polluting. It's worth having a
discussion about the environmental implications of a growing middle class in
south asia buying cars, but at least if scooters are replaced with cars such
as this on a 1:1 basis, the air will be a LOT cleaner. The air in Lahore or
New Delhi on a typical day is a blue-gray haze full of two stroke engine
exhaust. The typical two stroke scooter pollutes more than a giant american
gas guzzling SUV from 20 years ago.

~~~
Tepix
> The typical two stroke scooter pollutes more than a giant american gas
> guzzling SUV from 20 years ago.

Citation needed.

~~~
walrus01
[https://phys.org/news/2014-05-two-stroke-scooters-super-
poll...](https://phys.org/news/2014-05-two-stroke-scooters-super-
polluters.html)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247506/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247506/)

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-
news/1083467...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-
news/10834679/Scooters-pollute-more-than-lorries.html)

------
mikepurvis
Note that the author is Alex Roy of Cannonball fame.

[https://www.wired.com/2007/10/ff-
cannonballrun/](https://www.wired.com/2007/10/ff-cannonballrun/)

------
vivekd
So wait, this means that if it weren't for safety and emission standards I'd
be able to go out and buy a new car for 4000 dollars and a used car for a tiny
fraction of that? I get that others want safety, but for me that's not as
important as avoiding debt. Shouldn't I have the right to make that choice on
my own?

~~~
wilg
To answer your first question: no. And as for the second, mostly no, unless
you are purchasing a car that only kills or injures yourself when you get into
a crash and also the emissions only go into your house and stay there.

~~~
GFischer
The emissions on a Kwid are far lower than those on an American car.

And the Kwid would probably injure yourself and anyone driving with you...
but, there's a version with ABS and Airbags, so the GP has a point.

[https://auto.ndtv.com/news/renault-kwid-1-litre-variant-
to-c...](https://auto.ndtv.com/news/renault-kwid-1-litre-variant-to-come-with-
abs-dual-airbags-as-standard-1257346)

Edit: by the way, I owned a Maruti Alto, and now own a Renault Twingo. I'd say
it's surprisingly safe.

------
nicolashahn
I wonder which will make more money, the cheap car sold by the millions or the
(relatively) expensive car sold by the thousands.

~~~
curiousgal
Judging by China's economy, I think it's a volume game.

~~~
yitchelle
In China, it is almost both. Some of the highest sellers are BWM, Jaguars and
Mercedes.

------
dingo_bat
I think the kwid is not going to disrupt much in India. I'm in India and if I
want to buy a car and I'm not going to consider the kwid. It looks too cheap
and small. If they would have made it a 2 seater I'd have thought about it.

------
dsfyu404ed
>In the US, everything about the car ownership experience — from research to
negotiation to delivery to service — has been utterly and depressingly
commoditized

Clearly this guy hasn't walked into a Chrysler dealer and asked "How much
horsepower can I get with four doors?"

------
dsego
Funny, yugo cost that much in the USA 30 years ago. Btw, yugo was an icon,
this is shite.

------
mdekkers
The only thing a Renault will disrupt is the reliability of your
transportation, and your bank account when you go for repairs. As a current
Renault owner I have been forced to become an expert in automotive technology.

------
babesh
Why don’t you just limit the speed of the car to how much impact it can take
without seriously injuring the passéngers and possibly pedestrians? That car
can’t take a 40mph impact but maybe it can take a 25mph one?

~~~
freehunter
But other cars aren’t limited to this speed. If I hit a car at 25 mph it might
be safe, but if I hit it at 100mph that’s a different story. That other car
has no input on how fast I hit it.

------
ensiferum
Why can't take they make a car like this for the European market? Not
everybody wants to spend +20k € on a car. Somehow I feel this would probably
cost +10k in Europe so what gives?

~~~
calafrax
Do you have used cars in Europe? The US is flooded with used cars and you can
get something much better than this for $4000.

~~~
ensiferum
Depends where you live. For example in Finland with high tax on cars for 4000€
you can get a -00 Toyota Corolla with 250k km on it.

------
blunte
The problem of car safety isn't solved by the Renault driver driving slowly.
The risk is still significant when the speeding large truck fails to
stop/yield (is that even a concept?) and plows into the car.

Meanwhile, look at all the energy (and human time) being put into selling one
car, but the streets and surrounding areas are covered in trash and worse.

I would much rather see these car salespeople doing what "The Ugly Indian"
(see Facebook for group) is doing - cleaning up and decorating disgusting
areas and teaching people by example how not to trash their home environments.

------
yitchelle
That delivery ceremony is amazing. Are the salaries so low in India that the
car dealers can afford to have such a ceremony for every new car delivery?

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
Keep in mind that this is an article written by an American seemingly enamored
by something in India, and like most write-ups of such kind, it romanticizes
whatever happens in India while being over-critical of whatever happens back
at home. As an Indian who currently lives in the US and has a much more
'level' view of both places, this fetishization is quite frustrating.

That being said, the ceremony looks a little too elaborate compared to what
typically happens—the car is covered in flowers, and the dealership guy
ceremoniously hands over a symbolic oversized key to the buyer. Pooja may or
may not happen.

~~~
buserror
Also he rubbishes quite a bit what happens in the rest of the world (or is it
US only).

I know that in the UK, I bought a new BMW and we came in, my wife got flowers,
the car was covered and she got to pull it off to 'reveal' it, and the vendor
took a good 1/2 hour explaining all the gadgets etc. So no flowers on the car
and priest onboard, but definitely 'ceremonious' enough.

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
Plus the priest thing is very cultural and nothing to do with cars in
specific. A lot of Indians typically do ritualistic ceremonies (pooja) for any
slightly major life event. And for most Indians buying a car qualifies (even
the cheapest car is a fundamentally aspirational purchase for the lower and
the lower middle class).

I dunno if it's standard in the US, but Indians typically also distribute
sweets to friends and neighbors to 'celebrate' the purchase.

------
snambi
clickbait.

------
5_minutes
There is surely something to be said about Renault as a company brand's
responsability and ethics here.

------
jayeshsalvi
Why comparision with Model 3? It's not electric. The blogger seems to have
only anti-tesla agenda.

------
Rzor
In Brazil the Kwid will be sold for 10kUSD, even worse than India.

------
joekrill
> Ask the clickbait mills and the sheep who retweet them...

Surely the irony must be intentional.

------
anonu
> You couldn’t give a Model 3 away in Chennai or Bangalore. From wheel size to
> suspension to charging to structural integrity, no Tesla would survive, at
> any price. They’re not designed to.

How do you know?

------
thewhitetulip
I am still trying to understand how a 0 rating crash test car is being
compared with one of the safest car? Am I missing something? Is this a
sarcastic post?

