
One Man Has Written Virtually Every Major Pop Song Of The Last 20 Years. - ikonos_de
http://www.celebritynetworth.com/articles/entertainment-articles/max-martin-powerful-person-music-business-people-never-even-head-name/
======
joelrunyon
I don't understand all the hate.

Okay I get we don't have a lot of backstreet boy or Britney fans here (not one
either) & I get the whole "pop music sounds the same lament, but at the same
time, there's a market for it & he's excelled at creating something that sells
that.

Just because it's pop music doesn't mean you can't give the guy credit for
understanding his market & dominating his field.

~~~
tedks
>there's a market for it & he's excelled at creating something that sells
that.

There's also a market for black tar heroin, nuclear missiles, drones, slaves,
and so on.

>Just because it's pop music doesn't mean you can't give the guy credit for
understanding his market & dominating his field.

Is pop music a good thing for the world? (It obviously isn't as bad as any of
the things I listed above to avoid claims of hyperbole, but) should we think
people who make pop music are doing a good thing?

~~~
swombat
Are you seriously comparing pop music to heroin and slaves???

~~~
tedks
Sure. Heroin and slaves are really, really bad. Pop music is just mildly bad.
That's a comparison.

The point I intended to make is that there are markets for everything.

I don't even think pop music is that bad, but being successful in a
marketplace is never cause alone for accolades. Blindly worshipping people who
are successful at some business venture blinds us to the ethics of whatever
they're doing. Success shouldn't disable critical thinking.

~~~
joelrunyon
> Blindly worshipping people who are successful at some business venture
> blinds

Completely agree, but I don't think anyone in the article or this forum could
be considered "worshipping" this guy. The article was more of an observation
about a not immediately apparent fact that was intellectually curious.

~~~
tedks
Not this man in particular, but in general I think people in this forum
conflate "being successful in commercial enterprises" with "living a
moral/fulfilling/best-possible life." As do plenty of people in society.
(Definitely not all people in this forum, but certainly some, and certainly a
plurality.)

------
swombat
"Every major pop song" seems like a bit of an overstatement. He's clearly very
good at finding the sound that sells - but there are many successful songs
(even just in the genre of "pop") not written by him...

~~~
joelrunyon
You missed the "virtually" in front of every. That dramatically changes the
context & meaning of the sentence.

~~~
TylerE
Yes, but "virtually all" != ~5% under even the most liberal accounting.

------
joelrunyon
Interesting to see similarities in musical preferences & identifying common
threads that lead to popularity. This video / song [1] was viral a few years
ago because it demonstrated the similarities between major popular songs
spanning multiple decades through the use of just four chords..

[1]
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I)

~~~
evanb
That axis of awesome video reminds me of
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM)
by Rob Paravonian.

Also, the article reminds me of a parody video about the prolific nature of
Bob Dylan:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MumScDIZMJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MumScDIZMJc)

------
busterarm
I wonder why people find this surprising. This is how pop music has always
been done and it even used to be more in the open. Bands/singers didn't have
to get people to (ghost)write songs/lyrics for them - they used to just be
performers.

Many of the important names are on this list:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductees_of_the_Songwriters_Ha...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductees_of_the_Songwriters_Hall_of_Fame)
and a really obvious example is a guy like Paul Williams
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Williams_(songwriter)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Williams_\(songwriter\))
who made The Carpenters and Three Dog Night famous.

~~~
contextfree
I don't think this is really "ghostwriting" for the most part - the credits
are usually in the open, the writers just don't get much publicity.

~~~
busterarm
Well, you're right. But honestly producers have been the most important
players in the game since Rick Rubin when producers started to contribute more
to songwriting (actually that's sort of a lie - I'd argue it started with
Keith Olsen). It's sorta shocking that people don't know. I only even
mentioned ghostwriting because some other comments mentioned it and because it
actually does happen where the credits aren't in the open.

I'll add parenthesis to make it more clear.

~~~
TylerE
It goes way back before that. The whole Brill Building/Tin Pan Alley era,
Holland-Dozier-Holland, etc.

~~~
busterarm
How Motown slipped my mind completely I don't understand but yes you're right,
but I wasn't under the impression that at Tin Pan Alley the songwriters did
the production themselves. That said, I hadn't done much research into that
era of recording.

~~~
TylerE
There wasn't really production back then, as that stuff was usually cut live
to two track, then the vocals overdubbed. But the song writers were also the
arrangers in many cases.

------
eaurouge
On HN of all places we should value the creative process. I think we should do
so even when we don't agree with the content, as long as there are no
ethical/legal issues. The title is plain silly, of course. There are many
other talented songwriters and producers out there - Babyface is one, I'm sure
there are others.

Songwriters and producers don't get their due though (unless they also sing).
Back in the day, I used to read CD liner notes to get to know the producers
behind the songs I liked. But I always paid more attention to producers than
songwriters: for some songs it's hard to know which one out of the five listed
songwriters was the real creative force; songs with samples will often have
lots of unrecognizable names; and I've always valued producers as being more
critical to a song's success than songwriters.

~~~
joe_the_user
_On HN of all places we should value the creative process. I think we should
do so even when we don 't agree with the content, as long as there are no
ethical/legal issues._

Well, the article like argument that the process going is less creative than
it seems. I suspect hackers would love if software could 5% of pop songs. If a
person with a formula writes 5% of pop songs, somehow it appeals less and
seems less creative. I agree though articulating exactly why might be hard.

------
WalterBright
Reminds me of the Monkees. In the early days, the studio hired the best
songwriters to write the tunes for them. After a while, the Monkees rebelled
and insisted they could write their own songs.

And the Monkees pretty much ceased to exist.

Pretty much the same story for David Cassidy.

~~~
jmaygarden
Didn't Neil Diamond write several of their hits?

~~~
bill-nordwall
Yep! Neil Diamond wrote I'm A Believer.

Also, Carole King wrote Pleasant Valley Sunday. Here's her original demo:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtyqPzeso5A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtyqPzeso5A)

------
pronoiac
When someone close to me had kids, I came close to loading up an iPod with
_all_ of Weird Al's music, so that they would hear _his_ versions first, and
they would think that he was the _prime musical force of the past 30 years._ I
didn't follow through, though I regret that sometimes.

~~~
samatman
When I was a lad, I didn't understand that some of Weird Al's songs were just
funny. I though that, for every Weird Al, there was a corresponding pop song.
The best part is, even though I was wrong, I still sometimes hear a song and
think "Oh. That one was a parody, huh."

------
pavpanchekha
Many of us on Hacker News dislike pop music. And there are good reasons to do
so, but its popularity alone should not be one. I like to remind myself some
of the greatest music in the world was once pop music. For example, J. S. Bach
used to perform at the Café Zimmerman in Leipzig[1]. Could you imagine going
into a coffeehouse and listening to Bach playing a Teleman concerto? Or a
flute concerto of his own?

Now, I'm not saying that the Backstreet Boys have the musical genius of Bach.
But neither should you discard their music because it is popular and
overplayed. Would the world be better off had they never sung?

"The [Café Zimmerman] was destroyed during an air raid on Leipzig in December
1943." [1] I would have loved to stand inside it.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Café_Zimmermann](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Café_Zimmermann)

~~~
Dewie
> And there are good reasons to do so, but its popularity alone should not be
> one.

It's its popularity, alone, that forces me to have to listen to it. Sometimes.

I don't believe that people can have "bad taste in music", or that pop music
is bad. But I'd rather listen to what I like, which I guess is why I shun the
radio.

------
zaidf
Does anyone know what's the equivelent in rap? Can I assume most mainstream
rappers(Kanye, Wiz, 50 Cent etc.) heavily contribute to their own lyrics? I'm
particularly curious about Eminem.

~~~
joelrunyon
Eminem's style and lyrics are all mostly personal. You can tell from how his
lyrics mirror his lifestyle that much of it is written personally.

On the flip side, Dr Dre is known to have his lyrics ghostwritten & is
primarily known for his production skills.

~~~
romanovcode
> primarily known for his production skills

I think nowadays he's more know for his overpriced headphones tho.

~~~
joelrunyon
Also another product that recognized / created a market & built a product that
seems acceptably priced to those who bought it.

They might be overpriced to you, but to the thousands of people who've bought
them, they seem worth the value.

~~~
MichaelGG
If they're buying for the brand, then perhaps. The headphones are objectively
worse than other models in the same price range. I'd guess that most buyers
are not aware of this and just think it's cool or it must be good because it's
higher priced.

It's brilliant marketing, sure. But it's like taking a $2 bottle of wine,
rebranding it, and saying it's worth the value at $19.

~~~
joelrunyon
That's the whole point of the brand though. I don't think Beats is trying to
convey the image that they're the objectively best brand of headphones.
However, they are saying - these are endorsed by Dre, popular athletes & other
profile musicians & that wearing them is "cool".

That's like complaining that Nike can markup a pair of Jordans for $150 even
though they're objectively "just as good" as a pair that costs $70-$100. A
"brand" is valuable.

Case in point - that "rebranding" of the wine, just got you an extra $17 in
margin.

------
Tycho
That is a gross, absurd exaggeration.

He has a few classic pop songs, no doubt, and clearly a very lucrative career
writing and producing tracks for A-list pop stars. But in the last 10 years
I'm not sure he's written _any_ of what I'd call the best pop hits. Looking
through his discography on wikipedia I suspect there's some of those songs I
know by melody and not by name, but I think he's long past his songwriter
peak. And obviously there's dozens off great pop songs that he didn't write
(which were smash hits).

edit: I missed all the Katy Perry ones, so I guess maybe he's still got it.
But still, I don't see any work with Rihanna, who is probably the biggest pop
star of the last decade.

~~~
twerquie
Katy Perry's Teenage Dream album was largely written by MM, I'd say it's both
one of the most important pop records of the last decade and MM's best work.
It smashed all sorts of chart records, in total it had 8 top-three singles on
the Billboard Hot 100, and 5 number one singles.

It's absolutely destined to be a classic album in every sense of the word, and
I find it funny that most music heads I know can't see that because (imho)
they are too afraid of being seen as someone who enjoys Katy Perry. Oh well,
the kids who were 12 at the time will grow up appreciating it. I suppose it's
for them anyway.

~~~
Tycho
Interesting. Maybe I'll give it a spin. I can only think of a couple of
singles but they were very catchy (Last Friday Night and California Girls).

I tend to view rock and pop and most other mainstream genres as simply one
super-genre: modern song. It amuses me slightly when rock fans look down on
pop music when really the difference is very small.

------
chris_wot
Says it all really. Banal, soulless, uninteresting songs. All up for awards.

------
keerthiko
I have always been a fan of trashy pop (too busy still listening to "As Long
as You Love Me" 10 years later to have any shame). I remember when I was 13
and used to read all the pocket leaflets from audio tapes I would buy. And
reading the entirety of the fine print/credits for all my favourite songs
after I'd memorized the lyrics (backwards too).

I remember coming across Max Martin and Denniz Pop prominently figuring in
just about every single one of my favourite songs. I would be amazed to find a
song I liked that didn't mention at least Max Martin. I was amused to find
this consistent across BSB, NSync and Britney Spears (and I didn't like very
many of her songs). I always thought to myself "This man, whoever he is,
whatever he does, is a genius, because he seems to be the only real common
factor across all my favourite trashy pop songs. Why isn't he the most
important man in pop music?"

I got over my obsession over the backgrounds of pop musicians shortly. But I
still find my favourite songs (within my understandably terrible taste
according to those with a finer appreciation for the arts) to often be Max
Martin produced.

He deserves a lot of respect and credit for not only dominating his field and
picking the right talent to work with, but moreso for keeping up with the
trends and times (or defining them?), entertaining teenagers and youngsters
for multiple generations even as he grew older. That is definitely no easy
feat, in music, movies, social media (hi Facebook) or any other industry.

As a game designer, I hope I can develop that talent to cater to the most
important demographics in my industry even as I outgrow it.

------
hristov
Gee, no wonder they all sound the same.

~~~
mcintyre1994
That's probably more to do with this:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I)
:)

------
erichmond
It's extremely difficult to write a great melody, much less produce a great
song. While I don't often listen to his tracks for "fun", I have to give him
that he's a great songwriter.

Same with Diane Warren.

~~~
pcurve
I agree.

Very few people can come up with catchy tune on consistent basis.

He reminds me of a prolific young Japanese orchestra-style music composer
Sawano Hiroyuki who has written some terrific soundtrack for TV, though I'd
consider him many level above Max Martin.

Just a few of his work.

[http://youtu.be/GiL5_FCbstk?t=19s](http://youtu.be/GiL5_FCbstk?t=19s)

[http://youtu.be/WG2o3wWtrsU](http://youtu.be/WG2o3wWtrsU)

[http://youtu.be/M1eh_d382hA](http://youtu.be/M1eh_d382hA)

(my personal favorite)

------
alexvr
I'm an elitist when it comes to music, but I admitted to myself that Taylor
Swift's I Knew You Were Trouble and a couple Backstreet Boys' songs are
catchy, well-composed tunes. Good melodies are good melodies. But I'm glad I
don't have to credit Taylor Swift anymore :p

A lot of these songs have much more musical merit than a lot of pretentious
indie songs, which tend to be repetitive and lacking in melody. Contrary to
unpopular belief (by the "hip" minority), you're not necessarily
unsophisticated if you enjoy a wildly popular band like Coldplay.

------
yetanotherphd
I have a lot of respect for someone who can earn that much money with honest
work. And those were mostly good songs, well written and arranged, and very
suited to the singer, except for 22 which sucks.

------
fredgrott
What I think is interesting is what it may mean for both web and mobile apps.

Is there a particular holy grail magical formula for mobile and web apps that
produces more hits than losers?

~~~
camus2
> Is there a particular holy grail magical formula for mobile and web apps
> that produces more hits than losers?

Easy,make something really usefull that solves a real problem and people will
pay for it... Unlike Pop music there is no formula,but knowing the right
people helps I guess.

Pop music today is about using the same recipes that have been used for 30
years+ ,and i'm including "rap" in it, remember when rap was about something
else than B _tches and B_ ttles ? no? me neither...

------
tool
I used to be very fascinated by
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_Aitken_Waterman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_Aitken_Waterman)
a group that produced many of 80's pop hits and didn't think that there would
be a "more modern" equivalent that could stand up to them.

------
Ensorceled
"Virtually Every"?

He doesn't even compare to someone like Kara DioGuardi let alone "writing
virtually every major pop song"
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_DioGuardi#Professional_son...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_DioGuardi#Professional_songwriter)

------
hnriot
I clearly don't share the musical taste of most developers - I love most of
the music he has written. I'm probably not the target demographic (more like
the target's dad) but I still love pop music as much as I did when I was a
teenager in love with Agnetha Faltskog.

------
phil
Great NYer profile of another pop hit lyricist & production team:

[http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/03/26/120326fa_fact_...](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/03/26/120326fa_fact_seabrook)

------
viraptor
Not surprised by the other bands from the list, but Bon Jovi? That was very
surprising to me. I always thought he had fairly original songs. It's not like
they've only done one or two known albums and disappeared.

------
sanoli
So it's only one guy who's been responsible for all this crap?

~~~
georgemcbay
Nope, it is many millions of consumers who are responsible for all this crap.
This one guy is just an important part of a team feeding them what they want
to eat.

------
smackfu
You would also be shocked by how many pop songs Ryan Tedder from OneRepublic
has written.

~~~
eaurouge
I'm not. But that's only because I heard his interview on All Things
Considered in 2012 [1]. Really like the song he wrote for Leona Lewis.

1\. [http://www.npr.org/2012/01/15/145233608/ryan-tedder-a-hit-
ma...](http://www.npr.org/2012/01/15/145233608/ryan-tedder-a-hit-maker-with-a-
golden-touch)

------
moocowduckquack
He keeps his hair long to hide the little pair of horns.

------
ukandy
Nothing to be proud of.

~~~
spoiledtechie
What have you done to be proud of? I say hes made quite a dent in the world of
music.

~~~
ukandy
A few people here need a humour transplant it seems.

