
People reluctant to use their Octopus cards for fear of leaving a paper trail - DyslexicAtheist
https://twitter.com/maryhui/status/1138675837165641733
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oarsinsync
Follow on tweet:

> For additional context, since this photo doesn't show the whole scene: the
> line at every ticket machine stretched back 10+ meters.

Anecdotal, but I've never seen a queue at a ticket machine in Hong Kong.
Octopus is so entrenched as a vital necessity in Hong Kong you'll even hear
comics making jokes about one of the only essentials in HK is an Octopus card
(while things like clothing are optional)

It's not at all like the minimal copycat that Oyster in London is. Your
Octopus can be used in lieu of card or cash payments in many retail outlets,
restaurants, vending machines, even some taxis, all over the SAR, not just on
HK island.

The downside is every single thing you do is logged and tracked against your
card, and associating a card with an individual is just one MTR ride with
facial recognition away.

~~~
dTal
You can now use a contactless debit card in London in lieu of an Oyster card.

I don't really see the difference between that and Octopus, now, except that
contactless debit cards are a federated global system, which seems superior.
Is the difference that Octopus cards can be obtained arbitrarily and
anonymously?

Because nobody gives a crap about being tracked by debit card usage, and
they're _already_ deanonymized.

~~~
oarsinsync
To get an Octopus card, I need HK$150 cash.

To get a contactless debit (or credit) card, I need proof of ID and proof of
address.

Octopus cards were launched in 1997. Oyster cards didn't come to London until
2003.

Contactless debit cards didn't come into play with TfL until 2014, and Oyster
cards never really extended beyond transport uses in that time.

In comparison, retail establishments, vending machines, parking meters, car
parks, were accepting Octopus cards as early as 2004.

There's a lot to be said for that momentum / inertia, which Oyster cards never
had, and the accessibility to absolutely everyone without any requirements
beyond having the cash to pay for it (approx £15, with £5 deposit for the card
and £10 initial credit)

(It's also worth noting I dumped my Oyster card within a couple of months of
contactless cards being accepted with TfL, while I still have my Octopus card
as it's vital in HK in a way that Oyster never was in London)

~~~
yardstick
So the main difference in 2019 is HK Octopus doesn’t require ID, while UK
Contactless does?

But is that a big issue given all these people are actively avoiding using the
Octopus to avoid being tracked? I guess Octopus doesn’t have age limits, I
think you need to be 11 or higher to get a UK contactless card for yourself
these days. Don’t know if that’s a legal minimum or just a banking decision.

Edit: You can get prepaid cards too: [https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-
gb/frequently-asked-question...](https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-
gb/frequently-asked-questions.html#prepaid)

~~~
pcr0
You _can_ get an Octopus without an ID, but most people have their primary
octopus linked to their ID for one of the following reasons: student
transportation discounts, residential/school building access control, linked
to credit card for automatic top-up, verification for child/elderly Octopus.

Given that a lot of the protestors were students maybe they're buying child
tickets rather than paying double with an anonymous adult Octopus.

~~~
oarsinsync
> You can get an Octopus without an ID, but most people have their primary
> octopus linked to their ID for one of the following reasons: ... linked to
> credit card for automatic top-up

When did that become a thing? I've always known Octopus to be cash only. Can
non-resident foreigners also top up by CC?

------
just_observing
Do they have their mobile devices with them? Electronic trail.

Did they appear in any photos? There's a trail.

Did they buy anything in that locality?

Did they call someone in that locality?

Just not using a card would seem to offer little protection unless they take
care of at least the above.

------
errnesto
“This raises a lot of interesting questions about cash vs. cashless societies,
and how in times of protest people may drastically adjust their usual economic
behaviour.”

Also what happens when you dont have the option to “adjust your behavior”?
Like at least in Germany payments above some amount I don’t remember can not
legally be paid in cache.

~~~
mstolpm
Citation? As far as I know, there is no limit for paying cash in Germany. To
fight crime, you have to show an ID if the amount is 10.000€ or more. In some
other European countries, there are limits for paying with cash, but I don‘t
think it applies to Germany at the time of writing.

------
yeutterg
As a frequent visitor to HK and Octopus Card holder, I don't believe I ever
had to present ID to obtain my card. I just purchased it with cash at the
Airport Express counter. Is it different for HK citizens?

~~~
rswail
No, there are "anonymous" cards and "personalized" ones. Anonymous cards can't
be refunded if you lose them, they also can't be linked to a bank account to
automatically add value to the card "purse".

A large percentage of the resident cardholders have the personalized cards
because it means not having to use cash at machines to add value.

------
kabwj
It’s interesting how what this girl said (which frankly could be exaggerated
or even made up for retweets and exposure) has turned into the title of this
submission. Like embedding a pair of tweets and saying everybody is outraged.
Journalism in 2019.

Isn’t it more likely that, for example, many of these people had to come from
far away to protest and they simply do not have an octopus card or it’s not
valid for this zone?

~~~
King-Aaron
Considering the history behind the Chinese government's response to
protesters, I would be willing to consider that the title and related tweet is
somewhat accurate.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Though I'd say that the hunch is right in this case, I'd be careful of falling
into the trap of considering a news source more worthy just because it
confirms your preexisting ideas.

