
Leaving the Mac App Store - davidbarker
http://blog.sketchapp.com/post/134322691555/leaving-the-mac-app-store
======
xenadu02
The worst part about this is all the problems are easily solved if Apple
simply put the resources into it.

* The actual MAS store app itself is a horrible piece of garbage wrapping a bunch of web views. Just make it a real native app and rewrite it.

* Sandboxing is great, but there will always be things that fall outside the sandbox. Have a "Power User / Developer Tools" category and associated checkbox in iTC that says "My app needs to opt-out of these parts of sandboxing". Put those apps through a much more strenuous review process.

* Relatedly, add more entitlements to the Sandbox, even if they also trigger a more in-depth review.

* Both iOS and the Mac app stores desperately need feedback mechanisms and some basic customer support tools. This has been obvious since at least iOS v4. I can only imagine this is due to Apple's inability to do good server-side software (and the organization doesn't value it like they value client software). This should automatically give you at least a private way to send a message to users leaving a bad review, then prompt the user to update their review if the response helped them. Asking users to review is hard enough... getting them to update a 1-star review is nearly impossible.

* Hire more reviewers. There is no excuse for reviews taking so damn long.

~~~
dangero
"The actual MAS store app itself is a horrible piece of garbage wrapping a
bunch of web views. Just make it a real native app and rewrite it."

Native app is not really a black and white concept when you're talking about
an app that mainly just interprets and displays live data it receives. If it's
not html, then it's going to be xml/json/some other markup with a custom
presentation layer on top. Why would that be better? In this case I just don't
think you can point the finger at webview vs native as a problem or a
solution. Yes, the app may be crap, but that seems mostly unrelated to the
technology used to build it. I'm guessing it's more a factor of lack of
resources, team member quality, management, or inter-departmental
communication issues in a large corporation.

~~~
janfoeh
You're probably right. I would still agree with the parent in that they feel
like a badly done webview wrapper, because the symptoms are so similar.

iTunes Store, App Store, MAS, Apple Music — there is definitely a pattern
there, at least on the desktop. I find them all similarly clunky, slow, ugly
and unpleasant to use.

Apple almost seems to be inherently incapable of creating a decent store
front, and I am curious as to why they have that organizational blindspot.

~~~
ethbro
_> Apple almost seems to be inherently incapable of creating a decent store
front, and I am curious as to why they have that organizational blindspot._

Because when you have a captured userbase, there's no incentive to improve /
innovate?

~~~
janfoeh
Even if you believe that Apple as a whole doesn't have the drive to make stuff
as good as they can (fair, although I believe otherwise), and even if you
believe they have a captured audience (how?) — do you indeed believe that
Apple is happy with 15% (US) market share for desktops and laptops?

Even accepting everything else, that seems like a huge incentive to me not to
get complacent.

~~~
ethbro
Not sure where you're getting 15% from: the vast majority of articles I read
have Apple's app stores generating far more revenue than the competition's.

So yes, I believe Apple is probably perfectly happy (in an upper-echelon
corporate strategy sense) sitting on their cash cow as opposed to fighting it
out for less profitable market share.

~~~
janfoeh
The number is from Gartner for Q3 this year - for whatever they are worth :)

[http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/3146617](http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/3146617)

------
VeryVito
I'm glad to see successful apps exiting The Mac App Store, and I hope others
will follow. Unlike its iOS counterpart, which is great in many ways (new app
discovery not being one of them), the MAS has unfortunately done more harm
than good to the once-thriving indy Mac app-development scene.

It offers a low cost of entry, but also encourages "pump-and-dump"
development, in which developers are actively (though surely not
intentionally) discouraged from updating their apps once they launch.

It's designed to be the "anti-professional" means of app distribution, and it
never reaches any higher.

~~~
cmdkeen
Which is ridiculous when Steam is there as a shining example of what a store
could be. Not having to worry about keys and updates is fantastic for me, plus
good discovery and upselling opportunities for developers.

Someone is going to crack desktop app stores one day and do very well. The
cost of entry is high (not necessarily in cash, more in reputation) but there
are plenty of players who could do it. There's even scope in the SME market in
terms of rolling up licencing and deployment. Hell there's even a use case for
families.

~~~
mrec
I use and generally like Steam, but I'd never call its discovery "good". Users
are drowning in the number of titles, the recommendation engine is pretty
poor, and there's _no support for filtering_.

I'll never buy an RTS or a multiplayer-only game, stop showing them to me.
I'll never buy an early-access game or a game with 3rd-party DRM, stop showing
them to me. I could cull 90% of the stuff in my discovery queues,
automatically, with 30 seconds of box-checking.

I'm also surprised that the desktop client has never implemented an "is this
machine actually capable of running this game?" check. Non-trivial to
implement, sure, but really useful.

~~~
the_af
Same here. I like and use Steam, but its UI for casually browsing games (aka
"casual shopping") isn't very good. For example, when you are browsing a list
of games, if you click on one to see additional details and then try going
back, you lose your place in the list. This is infuriating for long lists. It
kills the browse & shop experience.

The web interface for Steam is better than the app's. Then again, this is what
web browsers are there for...

~~~
Orva
Funny enough, when looking at Steam processes tree (and if I recall correctly,
also licenses), client is done with Chromium Embedded Framework.

~~~
toyg
Which is probably why it still looks like shit on Retina screens. Oh, how I
_love_ HTML apps...

~~~
greggman
What does that have to do with HTML5 apps? In the browser, when HD-DPI support
was added every page started using HD-DPI font rendering, HD-DPI CSS, HD-DPI
SVG, only image were still lo-res

Conversely I still have native apps that are low-res only because updating
them to HD-DPI meant shipping a new app.

~~~
toyg
_> when HD-DPI support was added_

Indeed. Except that, to get it, you-developer actually had to ship an updated
browser with your "app" \-- basically the same as any native app, except that
instead of being "just turn on this setting in a plist and recompile", it
means refreshing your little in-house fork of a massive browser project that
barely anyone understands. Clearly Valve cannot be arsed to do that, so Steam
keeps looking like shit more than 3 years after these screens appeared.

The universal toolkit is not so universal if every app ships its own custom
version.

------
relaxatorium
The thing that's craziest about the MAS to me is how bad the actual
application is.

It's super slow, constantly hangs, and is just such a bad experience from the
consumer side that it undermines the (very real) benefits of having a
centralized store of applications you've purchased and installed.

It'd be one thing (and a fairly standard Apple move) if the customer
experience was good and they didn't care about trampling developers to get it
that way, but the actual customer facing software that is the App Store is a
shockingly bad piece of software.

~~~
to3m
I dread ever having to run the Mac App Store to get an upgrade. (Luckily, I
only have to do it for Xcode and OS X.)

It asks for my password literally every 15-20 seconds. Once I tell it to
upgrade everything, it selects only one upgrade, and keeps telling me there
are upgrades. While the upgrades are going, it keeps asking me for my
password.

At that point I go off and watch TV. When I come back, it's actually
downloaded all of the upgrades, and there's a message about how there are
more. After I've entered my password a few more times, it tells me I'm up to
date.

Then it asks me whether I'd like to upgrade.

I guess once their work experience students get bored working on Xcode they
put them on this instead.

~~~
sosborn
> It asks for my password literally every 15-20 seconds.

This hasn't been my experience at all. I wonder what's going on because that
sounds super annoying.

~~~
to3m
As far as I can tell, it's not universal, but still somewhat common. (My
computer has always done it ever since I bought it new in April.) It is a bit
annoying. But since I use the MAS so irregularly, I can get by. I do wonder
what the cause is, though. I'm less certain I'd like to know how Apple have so
far failed to get to the bottom of it.

~~~
vitd
Do you know for certain that they know about it? You can file bugs here:
[http://bugreport.apple.com/](http://bugreport.apple.com/).

~~~
brazzledazzle
Radar is bullshit. Apple should make it easy to file bugs and get information
about them but they've been using this piece of jank since forever. If I file
a dupe I have to inquire about it every now and again because you can't just
add me to the original? Yeah, I don't think so.

------
ThomPete
I used to have an app in the MAS but recently removed it and is using Paddle
instead.

There are so many things wrong with the MAS.

Sandbox is the biggest complaint I have. I can understand it with the iOS to
some degree. At least there they are constantly providing new features and
hardware changes to help apps keep being innovative.

To give an example of the Sandbox issue.

We are using AppleScript for some of our logic in the background. Because of
the Sandbox every time AS is used a little gear pops up in the top menu of
OSX.

This started with Yosemite. But worse than that. The implimentation of this
security measure was completely sloppy. The gear didn't just appear it also
rearranged the top bar icons and I of course got a horde of users complaining.
We tried many things to solve this but had to finally give up and just offer
MAS users to switch to our non-MAS version.

You would think that at least people would be able to turn off such a thing
with apps they knew were ok. But no.

Furthermore reviews can really make you or break you. For a long time we had
good reviews because I spent a lot of time making sure people understood why
the spinning gear was there. But after a while one star reviews started
appearing and we had no way of mitigating that or contact the user and tell
them they could switch to the non MAS app if they had that issue.

And so I finally realized that if you want to actually do any innovation with
your apps and built a proper business MAS is not for you.

I am beginning to wonder if there is room for an alternate App Store based on
the the Developer Certificate or some security setup open sourced.

Anyway. My next product wont even be going on the MAS. It's simply not worth
it. It's just a distribution channel for Apple to show their latest features
(the only way you get featured)

~~~
danieldk
Although I am happy that apps are moving out of the MAS (it is slow, updates
are slow, no possibility to offer upgrade licenses), as a user, Sandboxing is
something that I want for every possible application. The model where an app
can e.g. touch your whole home directory should go.

~~~
oblio
Really? If that model is so awesome, how can I ever implement a screen reader
for Hearthstone? Or how can I implement a deck tracker for Hearthstone?

Or any other kind of wild shenanigan Apple hasn't ever thought of.

Keep that stuff for mobiles.

If PCs also become grandma only territory, how will really interesting apps
ever be developed? Interesting almost always involves "dangerous" somewhere
along the way.

~~~
nezza-_-
With a two tier system. I believe you should still be -able- to install apps
that have wider rights but you should have to jump through some hoops and make
sure the user is aware of what he's doing before installing them.

------
song
I avoid buying from the mac app store as much as possible.

If Apple ever decided to change mac os x to no longer allow external
applications, I would switch to Linux right away. I don't want to do that
because I do like the os X better a GUI... But there's no way I'd stay on a
system that wouldn't allow me to do what I want with it.

~~~
greggarious
I would switch if I could find a good open source RAW image editor to rival
Photoshop.

~~~
mrschwabe
The latest Photoshop on Linux is quite attainable; I have CC running smoothly
via VMWare Worksation 12 / Windows 7 (new versions of VMWare have
DirectX/OpenGL and let you allocate GPU memory)

... but unfortunately that combines 2 proprietary solutions so guess it
doesn't exactly fit your criteria.

~~~
odbol
So "Photoshop on Linux" means "Photoshop on Windows on Linux"... that's not
really a solution. That's Windows.

~~~
mrschwabe
Heh, good point at least though with this setup you don't have to boot into it
or use it for anything else.

------
austenallred
>App Review continues to take at least a week

That must be the most frustrating/annoying thing in the world.

> there are technical limitations imposed by the Mac App Store guidelines
> (sandboxing and so on) that limit some of the features we want to bring to
> Sketch

I'm sure there are good intentions to what Apple is doing there, but it would
be nice to know more details.

> and upgrade pricing remains unavailable

Man, the Mac App Store really just needs to up its game.

~~~
roosterjm2k2
The intention of most of their decisions is more about their own money...

Case in point, it took forever for chrome or opera to come to iOS because they
"competed" with the apple product already integrated into the OS, and
"provided a less seamless user experience" ... basically, Apple didn't want to
be outshined on their own platform...

~~~
simonh
I'm not sure who you're quoting with those quote marks. It's not Apple though,
because I don't believe they ever said any such thing.

The reason Apple has always given is security. This is the reason they gave
for not allowing third party access to the JIT version of the javascript
engine. Their critics at the time claimed this was really because they didn't
want other browsers competing with Safari, and they'd never let anyone have it
because of that. Then when Apple developed the XPC framework allowing secure
remote execution, they opened up the JIT engine to third party browsers in a
secure way.

So far Apple's actual behaviour has been completely consistent with their
stated reasons, which are not the reasons you are 'quoting' from somewhere,
and in several respect contrary to the predictions of their critics. Isn't it
possible that they are being honest about their motives?

But on the other hand, yes, the Mac App Store is a broken mess. Right now it's
part of the problem with app distribution on the desktop, not part of the
solution.

~~~
pcwalton
> The reason Apple has always given is security. This is the reason they gave
> for not allowing third party access to the JIT version of the javascript
> engine.

This doesn't make sense. You could disable the JIT, compile WebKit to native
code, and ship it on iOS without the app requiring any more technical
permissions. Apple just doesn't want you to do that for business reasons.

If you want to maintain that it's a security measure, there should be a
specific attack concept you can describe that preventing alternative browser
engines (suitably modified to work with W^X) stops.

~~~
simonh
Your comment doesn't make sense. You've always been able to embed the renderer
with non-JIT JavaScript. Now you can build an app with full JIT embedded, so
saying they don't want you to for business reasons is obviously false. They do
let you do it.

The attack vector they're concerned about is to do with the JIT exposing
access to shared memory. As for alternate engines, any such engine would need
to include a JavaScript engine, which immediately opens up vectors for attack.
That's why the ability to download and execute code is restricted. now, thanks
to a robust and secure cross process communications framework, many
restrictions that were supposedly 'for business reasons' have been lifted.

~~~
pcwalton
> Your comment doesn't make sense. You've always been able to embed the
> renderer with non-JIT JavaScript.

Apple's renderer. Not your own custom one.

> The attack vector they're concerned about is to do with the JIT exposing
> access to shared memory.

I don't know what "exposing access to shared memory" means. All applications
that download data place potentially-hostile data into memory.

> As for alternate engines, any such engine would need to include a JavaScript
> engine, which immediately opens up vectors for attack.

Such as? Describe a specific attack that is prevented by forbidding
interpreters of remote content.

> That's why the ability to download and execute code is restricted.

Downloading and interpreting code is something that even a PDF viewer does.
Why is that not restricted?

> now, thanks to a robust and secure cross process communications framework,
> many restrictions that were supposedly 'for business reasons' have been
> lifted.

But not the restriction on alternate Web engines.

------
Jasber
Two years ago I released a Mac app
([https://heyfocus.com/](https://heyfocus.com/)) that couldn't be in the MAS
due to sandbox restrictions (tried 3 times—frustrating experience).

I sat on it for an entire year because I was convinced nobody buys stuff
outside of the AppStore anymore.

A year ago, the project still had really good traction, so I decided to try to
sell it directly as a test (using Paddle.com).

Boy, was I wrong! TONS of people buy outside the MAS, and Focus is doing
better than ever. If you're questioning it like I was, give it a shot.

~~~
zanedeg
I use focus everyday, thanks for the great app!

------
kremdela
I'll just play devils advocate here. As a consumer, I really like buying from
the Mac App store solely for the user experience of, when I eventually new a
new Macbook Pro, I can easily sync all of my purchases, rather than having to
retrieve the licenses and go download the latest version of each piece of
software I've purchased. As a developer, I've heard countless horror stories
and totally understand.

~~~
ismail
For syncing apps and tools have you tried homebrew and cask. Create a brewfile
and stick it in your dotfiles.

~~~
laveur
Brew is not consumer friendly at all. My parents (in their 60's) own a mac
that I bought for them. It was a great decision for me as I barely have to
support them for technical problems. I only get questions on how to do
something. If I was to try and explain brew to them it would be a disaster.
Explaining the Mac App Store is far easier.

~~~
jasonbarone
Brew is not even tech-person friendly. I'm comfortable with the command line
and I had a ton of problems getting cask to work. I LOVE the idea and I will
use it every time I setup a computer, but there's so many issues to work out.
Mainly, some apps not updating correctly, the storage of app versions in cask,
settings, licensing. It's a mess.

I really hope it gets better. I'd contribute if I was knowledgeable enough to
do so.

~~~
integraton
Be aware that Homebrew Cask [1], which your comment is referring to, is a
separate project being built on top of Homebrew ("brew") [2] and it currently
has a number of shortcomings that are independent of anything to do with
Homebrew itself.

1\. [https://github.com/caskroom/homebrew-
cask/](https://github.com/caskroom/homebrew-cask/)

2\.
[https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew](https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew)

~~~
jasonbarone
Thanks, I did mean Cask. I follow both projects closely and am aware of a
bunch of the current discussions. Both are great initiatives.

------
nicksergeant
Good. The other day the App Store was down and I couldn't use half of my
downloaded apps because they failed "verification". I'll be happy as a clam to
see more developers move their apps off of the App Store.

~~~
Already__Taken
Steam does this to me as well sometimes. Why can't these stores use some kind
of encryption that can just validate "Yes at some point in the past this has
been purchased on this computer" and leave it at that. Always online frankly
seems excessive.

~~~
X-Istence
That's exactly what Apple's scheme does, except that Apple's root certificate
expired...

There is no communication between you and Apple when you launch applications.

~~~
dkonofalski
That's not true. Apple issued a new root certificate using the latest OpenSSL
standard. The apps that "expired" were using an out-of-date version. They
technically shouldn't have worked in the first place, but Apple kept renewing
the old SHA-1 certificate alongside the current one which allowed these apps
to validate, despite using a cert that was obsolete since 2005.

------
S_A_P
That is my biggest complaint about the Mac App store. I think in general
prices have been reduced for most apps. But upgrade pricing is a must for
customer retention. If they try to sell me the next version of Logic for 199
Im not buying it. I spent 599 for logic 8 platinum, 129(I think) for logic 9
upgrade and then 199 for Logic pro X. Im not interested in giving them another
couple of hundred dollars for a while.

~~~
j2bax
Logic Pro is a professional DAW as I'm sure you are aware given your years
with it. If you can't afford the $199 upgrade, you should probably just use
Garageband for free. Personally I prefer this pricing strategy over requiring
a monthly subscription. And $199 is far cheaper than the alternatives.

~~~
S_A_P
I agree- however, if you follow what other DAW upgrades cost(and I agree,
forget this monthly subscription crap) Studio One Upgrade from 2-3(highest
version) - 149 Reason 8 upgrade from any version - 129(sometimes 99) Cubase 8
upgrade - 75

Logic is pretty expensive to upgrade for what usually amounts to a free plugin
or two and minor functionality increases...

~~~
j2bax
I didn't realize they charge so little for their major upgrades. Sorry to
assume you didn't do the math.

~~~
tjl
Another point, Pro Tools HD is $99/year and $199 for the first year. In that
case, $199 is reasonable.

------
tdkl
Thank god there are some developers who have the balls to stop with this
"Store" app distribution bonanza brought by the mobile phone. Someone should
give Microsoft a hint.

~~~
jbob2000
The "store" was really great for small/solo developers to release an
application. It's really expensive to setup your own server to distribute an
application. It's also really annoying to have to patch your apps without a
store.

What's changed is that there are lots of open source options for distribution
and patching, so developers need a "store" less and less.

~~~
SyneRyder
> It's really expensive to setup your own server to distribute an application.

I haven't found it expensive at all. I've been selling apps outside App Stores
for over a decade and never needed more than my $9/mth shared web hosting.
Accepting credit cards is even easier & cheaper through someone like
Fastspring or Kagi, who only take 8 - 9% instead of Apple's 30%.

> It's also really annoying to have to patch your apps without a store.

On the Mac, Sparkle is your friend for auto-updates, it's been around since
2006 (long before the Mac App Store existed): [http://sparkle-
project.org](http://sparkle-project.org)

On Windows, there's WinSparkle, though it isn't quite as elegant:
[http://winsparkle.org](http://winsparkle.org)

~~~
jbob2000
I don't disagree, there were always solutions. The app store just made it
easier than the alternatives. But now the alternatives are easier than the
store.

------
mrspeaker
Ha... nooow they do it. I purchased Sketch version 2 for 50 euros when I lived
in France. Then I moved to the US and got a new computer - at the same time
version 3 came out. There was no way for me to get version 2 back: I tried the
old "just re-purchase it and it'll end up costing you $0" (which worked for a
bunch of other apps - but they were still on the same version). Instead I
payed another $70 for version 3. I wrote to Apple and got my money back... but
now I'm stuck with a dodgy version of 3 (that I'm supposed to delete and can't
get updates for) and no way to get 2 back. Do I actually _own_ version 2? I
don't know!

------
seanalltogether
I would love to take Space Gremlin away from the mac app store. I've had to do
some pretty wonky workarounds to offer people a "pro" version to escape the
sandbox and it's a constant support headache. I'm just not sure if managing
the payment network, licensing and distribution support is going to be even
more of a headache.

I'm genuinely surprised that nobody as set up a 3rd party app store that can
compete with apple and microsoft and offer a cross platform solution. Get a
big company like Adobe to anchor it and I would jump over in a heartbeat.

~~~
eljimmy
I don't think Apple would ever allow something of that nature, unfortunately.

~~~
scarface74
Apple doesn't have to "allow" you to install apps on the Mac.

------
netheril96
Sandboxing is one of the pain points of Mac App Store. I certainly would like
to see sandboxing being more prevalent on the desktop, but not like the MAS
way. The user should have the final say of the way in which a sandbox allows
and restricts the application. Just for example, I should be able to
completely trust an app with access to the filesystem, not with all the popups
and confirmations, while disallowing network access from it.

------
milen
Apple has completely lost the goodwill of Mac developers. The one and only
reason the ones that haven't gone bankrupt are still staying is because they
have no other choice due to platform lock-in. Every single conversation that
I've had with indies recently have gone along the same lines: Apple is killing
the indie scene.

I wrote about the MAS exodus [1] more than a year ago and people were
skeptical back then. Think again - here's a list of great apps [3] that are
only available outside the MAS. Those are not just small time hobbyist apps -
those are professional tools.

Pieter (founder of Bohemian, company behind Sketch) listed many problems with
the MAS at a recent conference [5]. Wil Shipley (well-known within the
community) has also written about it [6].

And now you have another flagship OS X app ditching the MAS due to the
multitude problems it creates. The message is loud and clear - if you're a
real software business, not a hobbyist at home, don't waste your time with the
MAS - it simply does not allow you to run your busienss properly.

When the companies building the flagship apps for the platform publicly state
they cannot do business due to the restrictions of the Mac App Store and then
abandon the dysfunctional virtual marketplace, then you know Apple have pushed
them beyond the edge. No company would just decide to leave the MAS unless the
situation is hurting them significantly and holding them back. And
unfortunately, there are almost no words to describe how bad the MAS has been
for the ecosystem and innovation on the platform. [2]

You also get ridiculous stuff like Intuit because of the limitations [4].

Even if Apple fixes the Mac App Store one day, which is highly unlikely given
that in 5 years they have done absolutely nothing, developers have been burned
once and will be skeptical. You know, the whole "Fool me once, shame on you,
fool me twice, shame on me".

When people say that everything is fine and dandy with the MAS, they seem to
be misguided - no one is asking Apple to make everyone a millionare.
Developers are asking for Apple not to force simplistic business models and
allow companies to have the ability to choose what works for them.

I used to be hopeful for years but no more. I have zero faith that Apple will
listen to indies and solve their problem, they've got no leverage. And that's
a real pity. Instead of pairing high quality hardware with high quality
software, we have a platform encouraging predatory tactics and milking of
customers. A truly sad situation. And that's a real shame because the platform
I love and have invested a decade in deserves better. It might even be too
late - the damage to developers has been enormous.

[1] [http://blog.helftone.com/mac-app-store-the-subtle-
exodus/](http://blog.helftone.com/mac-app-store-the-subtle-exodus/)

[2] [http://mjtsai.com/blog/2015/11/12/no-one-minding-the-
store/](http://mjtsai.com/blog/2015/11/12/no-one-minding-the-store/)

[3] [http://dancounsell.typed.com/articles/not-on-the-mac-app-
sto...](http://dancounsell.typed.com/articles/not-on-the-mac-app-store)

[4] [http://mjtsai.com/blog/2015/11/24/quicken-2015-switches-
from...](http://mjtsai.com/blog/2015/11/24/quicken-2015-switches-from-mac-app-
store-to-direct-updates/)

[5]
[https://twitter.com/tmaes/status/657213874970763267](https://twitter.com/tmaes/status/657213874970763267)

[6]
[https://twitter.com/wilshipley/status/669321851793879040](https://twitter.com/wilshipley/status/669321851793879040)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I've been dumbfounded as well. A company that makes scores of billions on
products, should be able to spend millions on a decent app store. Yet it
continues to be a bottleneck, fail to serve app developers, and strangle
innovation. It all seems so futile.

~~~
sosborn
It takes more than money to create quality software.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Sure; but the reality is they did nothing at all.

------
aerialcombat
They should seriously do something about the review times. I'm sure they can
come up with a plenty of good solutions if they wanted to.

I suggest maybe giving developers a bank of a set number of expedited review
passes per year or so, so they can use it when they really need it. Damn it.

~~~
stevetrewick
It actually works like this in theory. You can get a couple of expedited
reviews for critical or urgent fixes [0], but Apples definition of 'critical'
and 'urgent' don't typically include having just shipped a crash bug that will
effect your entire user base unless you are Rovio are a similarly large actor.

[0] [https://developer.apple.com/support/app-
review/](https://developer.apple.com/support/app-review/)

~~~
profmonocle
I once got them to expedite an emergency bug fix, and my company was nowhere
near a "large actor". But this was waaaay back in 2009 so I can't be sure
they're still that willing to help small devs. The expedited review took 24
hours when the average was over ten days at that time.

Still, _any_ review time is really sucks as a developer. Shipping a big
release and having to wait 10+ days to get feedback really slowed us down and
hurt my enthusiasm as a developer. Honestly, I'm glad iOS development isn't
the main focus of my job anymore - the SDK and tooling is fantastic, but
provisioning and App Store submission is _awful_.

------
zulfishah
>App Review continues to take at least a week

\- this is one of the most frustrating things about Mac (and iOS) development.
There's no good reason why this cannot be brought down to 1-2 days by hiring a
ton of people to the App Review staff. App Review is not really a technical
skill that should be very hard to scale up, and one that can't be outsourced
to locations outside of Cupertino. Apple is the most cash-rich company in the
world; they can easily throw some money at this problem if they cared about
developer satisfaction. Far easier to resolve than problems like sandboxing
and upgrade pricing, where there is a major cost for customer satisfaction to
think about.

------
kitsunesoba
In addition to those mentioned here in the comments already, another problem
that publishing through the Mac App Store is how buggy OS X’s sandboxing can
be. I don’t know if the problem still exists under 10.11 (I bet it does but I
haven’t checked), but one bug that I’ve hit consistently has to do with file
open/save dialogs.

Open/save dialogs in sandboxed apps aren’t opened directly. Instead, requests
are handled by the privileged powerboxd helper daemon, which then passes back
user choices to the sandboxed app. This sounds great in theory, but something
that happens somewhat frequently is that some part of powerboxd’s dialog
initialization silently fails and doesn’t open a dialog, leaving the user
confused as to why his requested open dialog didn’t open. Worse, when it
happens, it can happen several times in a row, meaning the user can try
several times and not get any kind of feedback whatsoever.

It’s been a known issue since at least 10.7 and last I checked (10.10) it
still hadn’t been fixed. This is a showstopping bug for many kinds of apps but
it’s simply been ignored.

I’ve been wanting to move off of the MAS but as a one-man shop, writing in
serial code support, trial mode, and registration is daunting, not to mention
getting old users set up with a new license. I might just delay the move away
from MAS until the next major release.

------
__m
Well the new sketch crashes instantly, i hope it doesn't take them a week to
release an update

~~~
bomberstudios
If you used The Unarchiver, Pathfinder or Keka to unzip it, try using OSX's
Archive Utility

~~~
henriks
Surprisingly this turned out to be the issue; The Unarchiver messed up some
file attributes it seems. Thanks.

------
tdkl
Also what's wrong with Apple and their approach to software lately ? Have they
become just a hardware and accessories company?

Chris Pirillo gave a great talk about all the issues with the upfront
statement that Android Marshmallow runs better on older hardware then iOS 9 on
theirs (20min): [http://youtu.be/n5iuR8pKBfQ](http://youtu.be/n5iuR8pKBfQ)

~~~
jlarocco
Glad I'm not the only one noticing it.

I dumped OSX and installed Debian on my iMac a couple months ago because
Apple's software has just sucked the last few iterations, and if it weren't
for Capture One and LightRoom I'd be running OSX on my MBP, too.

If it doesn't get better soon, my next phone is going to be an Android.

------
glossyscr
Sketch was the killer app of the entire MAS.

For me it's even the killer app for OSX, there's nothing equal for that price
on Windows.

------
tammer
I've always wondered: is it the limitations of the sandbox that are the
problem, or is it expectation? If we never had access to execute outside the
sandbox, would we simply say we "see the reasoning" as we do for iOS?

------
hakcermani
The certificate expiration issue apart I would move to a non appstore version
at least for my 1Password. I started using 1Password to store all my passwords
including iTunes password and the recovery email. One fine day, I try to
launch 1P and i get an error box saying I need to authorize the app on the
computer using my iTunes ! Rats now this is a deadlock ! Possible solutions
are use the same password for 1Password vault and iTunes or buy iPassword from
agilebits directly. I will go the latter route in future.

------
mosburger
What are the alternatives to MAS? I've been considering distributing a small
OSX app at a fairly low price based on its value. Are there any good ways to
sell low-priced licensed software that support pushing updates to users
easily?

Edit: I should mention that in my particular case, the app is an Electron
(formerly Atom Shell) app, so a solution that involves an ObjC library might
be a bit difficult to implement.

~~~
jawngee
[http://paddle.com](http://paddle.com)

~~~
mosburger
Yeah, Paddle looks cool but I'm not sure how I'd integrate it w/ a "fake"
faux-native app builder like Electron. Probably just ignorance on my part. :)

------
kilon
Dont get what the big deal is, Mac App Store is far from the most popular way
to install new apps. The vast majority of my desktop apps for my iMac i got
them from outside Mac App Store via the web. Out of the 20 apps I got on my
dock only 2 are from App store.

And I dont think that any of the other apps I have on my dock are even
available from app store.

------
jhbadger
How do apps like "Clozure Common Lisp" get around the sandboxing? The Mac App
Store version isn't crippled in any way I can see -- it can read and write
outside its directory -- for example it can use the quicklisp package manager
which stores files in my home directory?

~~~
kybernetyk
It seems not to be sandboxed at all. At least that's what codesign reports for
the binary.

~~~
mh-
I just downloaded it.. there is indeed no entitlements, no container, nothing.

I guess it must have an exemption given that it was originally in the app
store prior to the mandatory sandboxing deadline[0].

[0]
[http://www.macworld.com/article/1167055/sandboxing_deadline_...](http://www.macworld.com/article/1167055/sandboxing_deadline_arrives_what_it_means_for_apple_developers_and_you.html)

------
xs
Sketch team. I am a Mac user and heard thing about your product but haven't
yet checked it out. This blog post is the first time I've visited your
website. Can you answer one thing for me? Why don't you have a link to
sketch.com from blog.sketch.com?

~~~
kalleboo
It's there at the bottom ("Home"). Looks like it's a tumblr, I guess they
don't have 100% control over the content?

------
robmcm
The Mac app store is great for simple, do one thing apps. I purchased a little
app that stitched panoramic photos together, and it worked great and cost next
to nothing.

However I think it's a long way off working for every app and developer.

------
eldilibra
I've downloaded the new, non-MAS version, but I'm not getting any migration
instructions, though I should since I've purchased the old version. Troubling,
since the post made it sound so easy!

------
vbezhenar
IMO sandboxing on desktop is failed attempt. Browser is a sandbox platform.
Nobody will download some shady application and run it, even if it's sandboxed
(but a lot of people don't really mind to visit a shady website).

If an application is in AppStore, it means that Apple got some legal documents
from developer, it means that Apple performed some automated scans on
application binaries. For me it's enough to have some trust. Sandboxing is not
needed and it actually making some apps unusable or even impossible to
implement.

Desktop apps always were in control of the entire computer. And they are now,
unless you are downloading them from the AppStore. That's why a PC is much
more useful than an iPad or iPhone for power users.

~~~
pkamb
And it's not as if non-Sandboxed applications won't be used. They'll just be
distributed outside the app store. So all of the potentially "dangerous" apps
are one-more-step removed from Apple's oversight and ability to pull the app
and halt downloads. Gatekeeper gives them some power in this regard, but
what's the point of not allowing them in the Mac App Store? Is the PR from
having a keylogger in the MAS really that different from the recent Instagram
password harvester for iOS, or a Mac keylogger that was direct-downloaded?

------
nnx
> We should also add that this move is not a knee-jerk reaction to the recent
> certificate expiration problems that affected so many Mac App Store
> customers.

Any good link/background about this?

~~~
jhull
HN thread here
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10560634](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10560634)

------
wyattjoh
After I just got profile manager figured out to distribute our Sketch licences
at the office... Hope there's some option to manage those licenses.

------
brandon272
I told myself a few months ago that I would never put anything else on the MAS
nor would I advise a client to. It's a nightmare.

------
cdnsteve
Has Sketch considered Steam? They support Mac.

~~~
theinternetman
The Steam mac client is pretty janky which might explain them not using it.

~~~
colmvp
Janky is putting it kindly

------
Fizzadar
So the direct version instantly crashes on 10.11.2 beta, the app store version
continues to run perfectly. Oh, the irony.

------
geekamongus
So someone can just enter email addresses until one works, then get a license?

~~~
bolle
The license is sent to the email address (says the screenshot). If you have
access to that mailbox, you get the license.

------
ilolu
Anyone else not getting the mentioned popup when launching the new Sketch ?

~~~
an4rchy
Did you overwrite the App Store installed version or did you just download
from scratch and install? I overwrote the MAS version and it came up.

~~~
ilolu
I tried overwriting too. But did not get the popup.

------
Rio_Tous
consider China market, things are even worse due to network problem.

------
kyriakos
a bit off-topic but they should really port Sketch to Windows and Linux.

------
optimuspaul
I pretty much only use the Mac App Store anymore. There are maybe 2 apps I use
that I get outside of it. I have a bunch that I are woefully out of date
because their developers abandoned me. It's too bad that rather than trying to
push to make it a better place developers are just leaving.

~~~
URSpider94
How exactly do developers "push to make it a better place?" It's owned by
Apple, nobody else has a voice, and Apple must be 100% clear on the perceived
shortcomings seen by developers. It's not like there's a quarterly App Store
Community Meeting where people can go and complain ...

------
timetraveller
All the reasoning is BS. They just want to cut the middleman and keep all the
earning which is totally fine but don't insult our intelligence and come up
with ridiculous reasoning.

------
ksk
I've always seen all app stores as a blatant money grab. A digital storefront
like that does not require that much money to run (no comparison with
supermarkets and the like which have heavy operational costs). I mean the
search barely works, discoverability sucks. One of the primary drivers for app
revenue is handpicked winners and losers via their own app lists, and some of
the stores are so amateurish that you have to re-download the entire app to
update it. Of the ones that we have, Steam is probably the least grubby.

I would much rather they charge a flat review/update/host fee per app with
maybe tiered hosting pricing for multi-GB apps (which apart from steam games,
I'm pretty sure few people download anyway). It's hard enough trying to run a
successful software business and then these companies go out and beat their
chest with "WE paid developers billions this year" rather than "we took away
30% revenue from developers".

