
Low-fat diet could kill you, major study shows - thomyorkie
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/29/low-fat-diet-linked-higher-death-rates-major-lancet-study-finds/amp/
======
acconrad
Here's a link to the study (which, by the way, was unnecessarily difficult to
find):
[http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67...](http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(17\)32252-3/fulltext)

What a sensationalist and _wrong_ headline. All it says is that "Total fat and
saturated and unsaturated fats were not significantly associated with risk of
myocardial infarction or cardiovascular disease mortality." So whether you
have low or high fat in your diet, you could fill a good portion of that total
caloric intake with protein instead of carbohydrates and that would still
satisfy the claims that you can mitigate against "Higher carbohydrate intake
was associated with an increased risk of total mortality".

They also don't define what "low" means in "low-fat" to define at what
threshold would "kill you" ( _eyes roll_ ). Doctors generally recommend 20-35%
already[1] so I'm not sure how any of this is groundbreaking.

[1] [https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/reducing-
fat-...](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/reducing-fat-intake)

~~~
buu700
_whether you have low or high fat in your diet, you could fill a good portion
of that total caloric intake with protein instead of carbohydrates and that
would still satisfy the claims that you can mitigate against "Higher
carbohydrate intake was associated with an increased risk of total mortality"_

This doesn't contadict any of your points here, but: my understanding is that
excess dietary protein is broken down into glucose via gluconeogenesis, in
which case I suspect that the high-protein and high-carbohydrate diets
wouldn't have significantly different results.

~~~
acconrad
Not exactly. Protein has a higher thermic effect in that it requires more
energy from the body to break it down into amino acids. So say you fill both
your glycogen and your amino acid requirements, given just proteins and carbs,
while both will be converted to glucose, the metabolic effect required by the
body to process protein will be higher than the carbohydrate.

------
bmcusick
Sigh. I mean, they're right, but they're also still missing the concept of
"What kind of fat?". Different kinds of fats effect you differently. This has
been known for a long time.

One my favorite blog posts summarizing some research on this point, on Butter
vs Margarine, is 8 years old now, and it still hasn't penetrated the
mainstream.

[http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/10/butter-vs-
marg...](http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/10/butter-vs-margarine-
showdown.html)

~~~
xzel
You sure thats not mainstream? NYC banned trans fats starting in July 2007. I
learned about them in middle or high school 10-15 years ago.

------
bitL
Last time I've been to US, in Cambridge, MA, it was next to impossible to buy
a decent non-low fat yoghurt. It was like observing shelves full of junk food
everywhere. Sigh.

~~~
ashark
Same in the grocery stores in the US midwest. If you're lucky, the available
options are 80% non-fat ( _loaded_ with sugar), 15% low-fat (most sugary, but
not all), and 5% full fat. In smaller stores there's no full-fat option at
all, typically.

The non-fat ones are the "healthy" single-serving cups advertised in
commercials with skinny women eating them in really nice kitchens just before
they go running, or whatever. Probiotics, yoghurt's supposed to be healthy I
think, blah blah. They're fat-free sugary dessert cups. Candy.

------
fhood
Oh good, I was getting worried that my quesadilla and cereal diet was
unhealthy.

------
notdonspaulding
PSA: Death is coming. You are going to die. Your parents are going to die.
Your kids are going to die. Everyone you know is going to die.

Are there things which you can do to reduce your risk of dying earlier than
the average person born at the same time as you? Sure.

Are there things which you can do to definitely prolong your life? No.

Death is a statistics game and 1 out of every 1 people will die at some point
in their life.

I don't begrudge anyone their interest in dietary/health news, but articles
like this get tossed about as justifications for making huge swings in your
diet or telling others to do the same. Whenever I see things like this, it
strikes me the same as an article like "The next iphone will use transparent,
flexible, waterproof plastic".

Like engineering, your diet involves making tradeoffs about the food you input
into your body, optimizing for a desired result (in terms of longevity of
life, physical capability while alive, enjoyment of food you are eating,
scarcity of resources, environmental impact, cruelty to animals - perceived or
otherwise, etc.). Also like engineering, there are hard constraints which hem
in the possible solution space. Pick your desired result, and make the
tradeoffs you want, just don't forget the hard constraint that death is
coming, my friends.

 _Anecdotally, this might be more on-my-mind than usual because my 66-year-old
uncle, who eats fish, fresh fruit and vegetables, and jogs every day,
collapsed this weekend from a heart attack and is now in the hospital in a
coma. I would have said the above regardless, but it 's a rather poignant
reminder for me at the moment._

~~~
agumonkey
senescence researchers want to have a word with you :p

~~~
foxyv
Then they got hit by a truck ^_^

~~~
agumonkey
never run into trucks, they're very unfriendly

------
heatish
Am I missing something or is there not a single link to the study in this
article? Didn't see it anywhere on mobile.

After the title there isn't really any info about dietary fats but instead
will read about how basically all this study may have found is that those
doing "low fat diets" might end up eating really crappy carbs. I can't find
the link to the study though so maybe they found something else..

I don't think people eating crappy carbs and drinking soda could really be
considered "dieters" they seem more like "unhealthy eaters who happen to be
eating low fat".

From the article: "Those doing so tended to eat far too much stodgy food like
bread, pasta and rice, the experts said, while missing out on vital nutrients.

Participants eating the highest levels of carbohydrates – particularly refined
sugars found in fizzy drinks and processed meals – faced a 28 per cent higher
risk of early death."

Also their suggestion goes on to say a good balance is 35% of calories from
fat which I would say is still fairly 'low-fat' of a diet IMO but I guess
that's pretty subjective and I'm not a dietician.

~~~
jessriedel
Very regrettably, most newspapers still do not link to the original journal
article when discussing academic work. Even places like the NY Times started
doing this routinely only a few years ago, more than a decade after it become
trivially easy to do technically.

~~~
SapphireSun
It's not just academic studies, journalists very frequently don't cite their
sources for many factual claims. Their editors and them knowing what or whom
it is is way too often enough for them.

It rubs me the wrong way. It feels a lot like: "We know better and can tell
you what to think. We don't need to show our work."

That said, it has been getting better, especially for the tech savy younger
generation with Twitter links (:P), but their editors are probably trying to
keep the number of hyperlinks relatively low.

------
sebleon
Sigh... this article presents a false dichotomy: you either eat a high fat
diet, or you mostly eat refined carbs.

Based on dozens of nutritionists I've talked to, focusing on macronutrients as
the primary metric is not great. Personally, I look at these things before
macros: is it plant-based, is it whole (not refined/processed).

~~~
hammock
Your body has minimum protein (and types of protein, AKA essential aminos) and
fat (and types of fat, essential fatty acids) requirements, or you will die.
And that is not a clickbait headline. So hitting those macros are vital even
if you are focusing on whole foods

~~~
justin66
> Your body has minimum protein (and types of protein, AKA essential aminos)
> and fat (and types of fat, essential fatty acids) requirements, or you will
> die. And that is not a clickbait headline.

Yeah it is. Well, it would be, if people ever talked about amino acids in
headlines.

People die of malnutrition, but good luck finding a population where people
dying because they missed out on a specific amino acid is even remotely
commonplace. Seriously, to whom does that happen?

~~~
hammock
[https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html](https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html)

Also, [http://m.med-health.net/protein-deficiency-diseases.html](http://m.med-
health.net/protein-deficiency-diseases.html)

~~~
justin66
These are extraordinary examples that amount to clickbait.

~~~
hammock
In addition to the American vegan baby who died in 2004 that I linked above,
here are some more extraordinary examples.

French vegan baby dead (2008)
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/29/vegans-
trial-d...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/29/vegans-trial-death-
baby-breast-milk)

Belgian vegan baby dead (2014) [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-40274493](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40274493)

Italian vegan baby almost dies (2016)
[https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/4xkk3n/couple-lose-
cu...](https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/4xkk3n/couple-lose-custody-of-
malnourished-baby-after-feeding-him-vegan-diet)

Another Italian vegan baby almost dies (2016)
[https://www.thelocal.it/20160629/two-year-old-in-serious-
con...](https://www.thelocal.it/20160629/two-year-old-in-serious-condition-
after-being-raised-vegan)

Futhermore, malnutrition - divided into a)protein deficiency, which is the
biggest component, and b)micronutrient deficiency - is globally the most
important risk factor for illness and death. Over 19% of young children in
India have a protein deficiency[1] and over 41% of young children in rural
Nigeria[2]. It's obviously worse in undeveloped nations but check the dead
babies above if you think it can't happen in the developed world too.

[1][https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4005205/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4005205/)
[2][https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10768411](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10768411)

~~~
justin66
These are tragic instances of children being underfed or, in the case of the
'vegan babies,' being fed very, very stupidly. Babies should be breastfed and
children should get enough to eat. I don't think any mainstream or even
oddball medical or dietary understanding is being challenged here.

(promulgating the myth that "complete proteins" are an important idea is still
bothersome, but now I'm not sure that's what you were doing)

~~~
hammock
Do you think someone can survive without getting "complete protein" (aka all
essential amino acids)?

~~~
justin66
The issue I have is with the dietary trend of pairing foods in order to obtain
a "complete protein," which is extremely silly. Dying because one of the amino
acids is not represented in your diet is something that basically never
happens to a well fed person (it would take an extreme example, and the
internet can supply those, but...) so I have no issue with it one way or the
other in a discussion about diet.

~~~
hammock
If by "well-fed" you mean getting enough total calories, you are still
mistaken.

Kwashiorkor is the condition of not enough protein while actually getting
"enough" total calories. What's more, low overall protein intake actually
increase your need for essential aminos, due to the body synthesizing non-
essentials from its supply of essentials.

There are also serious health effects (eventually leading to death) associated
with deficiencies in specific essential aminos. Lysine deficiency is one. You
only need 28mg a day but if you are eating mostly wheat it can happen.[1] If
you are lysine deficient it comes with its own disorders and it also leads to
micronutrient deficiency.

[1][http://www.pnas.org/content/101/22/8285.long](http://www.pnas.org/content/101/22/8285.long)

------
JoshMnem
This article is an example of one reason why AMP is bad. I'm on a laptop and
still seeing the AMP (restricted) version. I just saw a blank screen and it
took about 4 seconds for any content to appear. The publisher was prevented
from displaying their full website to me, because someone linked to the AMP
version.

------
clort
I keep thinking that diet, and fitness in general, is a complex thing to keep
track of. I'm reminded that the wealthy, who can afford a personal trainer or
physician to give advice for a significant proportion of the time would be
better able to manage this, and I wonder when it will be that our own personal
digital assistants will be able to help more of us do that.

Problem is of course, privacy.. if _Ltd_ create a PDA which monitors you, then
it is _Ltd_ who are doing that for their own purposes. If the PDA is owned by
the people who use it, that is better.. but thats unlikely to happen I fear.

~~~
adrianN
I keep seeing the argument that only the wealthy can afford a healthy diet. I
just don't buy it. At least in western countries, anybody can do it, it's not
that hard. Getting the basics right is just a google search away. Buying
reasonably healthy food is not that expensive, and preparation doesn't take
long. I know that because I prepare my food myself and it doesn't take me more
than two or three hours per week.

Oats and nuts, maybe some fruit for breakfast. Lentils, potatoes, or rice;
frozen veggies and some protein for lunch. Sandwiches or eggs with some
veggies for dinner. It might not be perfect, but it's certainly not terribly
unhealthy.

~~~
ashark
It gets more difficult when you're cooking for/dining with your family and not
everyone's on board with sandwich and egg dinners all the time. Kids, yeah,
they'll eat what you give them (sooner or later) but a spouse/SO is another
matter. Not impossible, but harder.

Exercise, diet, just _so much_ easier when you're single. Stupid-easy. And
before kids, especially the exercise part.

------
userbinator
Not too much and not too little, seems to be the way to go. But, given the
amount of previous research about harmful effects of fat, it's hard to tell
whether this is just an outlier. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if "High-fat
diet could kill you, major study shows" has appeared in headlines more than
once.

"Loosening the restriction on total fat and saturated fat and imposing limits
on carbohydrates _when high_ to reduce intake to moderate levels would be
optimal."

Emphasis mine. What...?

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
> But, given the amount of previous research about harmful effects of fat

Dietary fat has been shown to be healthy over and over again. There's nothing
controversial about saying dietary fat is good for you; it is established
science at this point.

I believe what the quote was trying to say about saturated fat is that they
feel it is less dangerous than carbohydrates and sugars, and while the UK food
industry has been busy trying to reduce the amount of saturated fat, they've
sometimes been replacing them with sugar/carbohydrate ingredients which could
be even worse for your health.

It is frankly disappointing that even thirty years later, many people still
believe that dietary fat is unhealthy.

~~~
the_gastropod
Hmm?
[https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2016/12/19/satu...](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2016/12/19/saturated-
fat-regardless-of-type-found-linked-with-increased-heart-disease-risk/)

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
There's a difference between dietary and saturated fat.

~~~
justin66
Saturated fat is specific, "dietary fat" isn't.

------
l5870uoo9y
Whenever I ask who we should send to colonize Mars, I humorously propose
Bedouins since they are use to living in the harsh desert climate. Joke aside,
inside our cultural realm the most sustainable group seems to be the "family
in 50s". I take the same approach to dieting, eating a normal portion of
variated traditional food will give you all the nutrients you need. Naturally
not arguing that you should reject scientific studies.

------
pavement

      early death
    

So... what exactly does that mean? Before 50? Under 65? Any age lower than
normal? Anything earlier than expected? Especially if injured or ill, for any
reason? Otherwise healthy?

    
    
      ...risk
    
      ...heart attack
    

I don't know what these vague qualitative assessments indicate. Link between
"risk" of heart attack and "low-fat" diet?

------
andmalc
Another article covering the same story, minus the scary headline:

[http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canadian-researchers-fat-
carbo...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canadian-researchers-fat-
carbohydrates-the-lancet-1.4266130)

------
mnm1
I think the real news here is that the NHS, FDA, and all other government
agencies cannot be trusted. They lie to make money for corporations. Following
their recommendations is just stupid. That'd be a good thing for parents to
teach their children.

------
tkdkop
This isn't the most reputable source, but there are a lot of good points in
here
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLtQLDptI1g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLtQLDptI1g)

------
CryoLogic
You don't need carbs to survive. You do need both fats and proteins (for
production of hormones and tissues).

You can get glucose through glucogenesis of fats AND proteins not just carbs.

------
yawz
Stick to getting 1/3 of your calories from each one of 3 main groups: carbs,
proteins and fat. And while you're at it, stick to good carbs and good fat.

------
mrfusion
I'm still confused if apoe4s should do a low fat diet?

I've seen it recommended but with all the damage carbs can do I'm thinking
high fat is still the way to go?

~~~
microcolonel
Carbs get a bad rap these days, but provided most of your carbohydrates are
complex, you really shouldn't be concerned. The trouble is with the lack of
satiety response for foods high in simple sugars without mitigating factors
(fruit juices, table sucrose, table syrups, and to a lesser extent honey). In
addition, people differ genetically and this can affect optimal intake. For
instance, I do well on a diet with lots of starchy carbohydrates, so my diet
is based primarily on bread, steamed grain (rice, wheat, quinoa) and green
vegetables (bok choy, spinach, broccoli), but I try to limit simple sugars.

There are fads of forsaking entire categories of macronutrient because this is
the simplest thing to explain after counting calories.

------
jacamat
Don't know why people think fat is bad in the first place. But then again I
have been keto for ~2 years. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

------
frogpelt
Did they consider that people who are unhealthy are more likely to be told to
avoid fat?

There may be some selection bias.

------
russtrotter
seems like articles like this are always read as justification for KFC,
butter, cheese and burgers rather than "hey maybe eating all those nuts and
avocados _is_ a good idea???"

~~~
cgh
There is nothing wrong with butter and cheese, unless you happen to be fat and
are trying to eat fewer calories. The main thing to avoid in burgers are the
buns.

~~~
jacamat
Even if you are fat there’s nothing wrong with butter and cheese. Especially
if you are fat, IMO.

~~~
cgh
Correct, I was being a bit tongue in cheek.

------
quoquoquo
as a consumer I don't know what to believe.

It seems like every other day some counter study is released.

I gave up and just decided to eat whatever the fuck I want.

~~~
pnw_hazor
It is not too complicated. Eliminate or significantly reduce, bread, potatoes,
rice, skim milk, sugary stuff, and cereals from your diet and you will be
healthier.

At our household we just got rid of bread and starch/carb sides and serve more
vegetables to make up for it.

~~~
quoquoquo
I switched my Western diet to strictly vegetarian Korean dishes a decade ago
and feel so much better.

Basically, what I learned is that Western diet is designed to _kill_ you.
There's just no way all that carb and sugar is healthy.

~~~
adrianN
And yet people in the blue zones eat quite a bit of carbs. Sardinians eat
noodles, people on Okinawa eat rice...

------
ProAm
Everything can eventually kill you all studies show.

