
Stripe Terminal – Programmable point of sale - anacleto
https://stripe.com/terminal
======
csytan
It's interesting to see:

\- Square become Stripe, while Stripe becomes Square

\- Stripe owning the whole user experience in purchasing

\- If they own the physical end points, will they eventually cut out credit
card companies? You can already see that they are pushing for collecting
emails with checkout.js. The first step is to have direct contact with the end
user.

\- If they cut out credit card companies, what's to stop them from moving into
personal payments (e.g. Square Cash, Venmo) and then banking?

~~~
rossdavidh
I'm sure they've thought about it. However, as others have found, getting
through the amount of fraud out there with a margin less than the ~3% that
credit card companies charge, is really hard. I mean if you were perfect that
would be 3% profit. If your uncaught fraud rate is even a few percent higher
than that of companies who have been doing this for a long time, you will be
bleeding money.

Again, I'm sure they've thought of it, but the credit card companies are
actually pretty good at a very hard task, which is enabling super-easy and
quick payment verification without getting eaten alive by fraud.

~~~
jacurtis
I am continuously shocked by the amount of defense that people have towards
Stripe. I remember mentioning Stripe's 3% fee being too high for me the other
day at a community event and I was attacked by people defending Stripe and
their fee. These are people that don't work there, and have no true
involvement with them (other than using their APIs).

Sorry everyone, but you really don't understand that Stripe's position is
literally the middleman of everything. Their "product" is the API. Simplifying
and unifying what the various processors have done and marketing the hell out
of it.

That 3% fee that everyone defends is truly almost pure profit for them. I
currently work with another payment processor (one of the top three largest in
the world) and our credit card fees are measured in basis points. For those
that don't know... a basis point is one-hundredth of a percent. The fees we
are charged by our processor isn't even whole percentage points, it is
measured in basis points. Granted it is more complicated because there are
different fees for AMEX, Mastercard, Visa, etc. But it is still all totaled
out to fractions of a percent.

Keep in mind that my credit processor is still making money while charging me
in basis points (and they have way more employees than Stripe does). Stripe is
a competitor to this processor. So if this processor makes money charging fees
in basis points, than Stripe could make money charging in basis points too.

And before people think that I work for Walmart. I'll just say we charge about
2M a month in credit cards which is relatively small.

I promise that Stripe is doing very well off their 3% charge. I am not saying
that they aren't allowed to make good money, but I really hate when people
defend them like they are barely scraping by. Stripe is laughing their way to
the bank with your 3% processing fee. They laugh even harder when they read
you defending their outrageous fees.

~~~
rossdavidh
Uh, that 3% includes the amount they are passing on to the credit card
company. Which, for a little guy like me, is around 3%. It is literally no
more expensive to go with Stripe than to roll my own.

~~~
ttcbj
Exactly. I signed up with stripe maybe 5 years ago. At that time, I was trying
to find a processor, and came close to signing with a bank. The bank wanted me
to sign a long-term agreement, the agreement had disadvantageous and confusing
terms with unclear costs, and it was more expensive than stripe at baseline.
The sales process was really sleezy: I only discovered all those terms because
I read the contract carefully before signing.

Before that I used two other processors, both of which had a confusing mix of
monthly and per-transaction fees.

If you are a very, very large business, maybe you can do better than stripe.
But if you are small or even medium size, I am skeptical there is a better
deal out there.

~~~
jjeaff
Even a small business can easily do better than A (when it comes to fees). The
only time stripe would be a good deal is if you are processing almost
exclusively high end corporate cards like Amex or corporate purchasing cards.

Stripe and others like them is also the best rate if you are processing very
small annual amounts. Because every merchant account has around $10 in monthly
fees, minimum. If you are not paying a monthly fee, either your processor is
paying it, assuming that they will make enough on the spread to make up for
it, or they are running your processing under their own merchant account and
taking on the risk. Which is likely what stripe does until an account is large
enough to warrant moving it under its own merchant account.

~~~
StudentStuff
Here is an example of a relatively expensive rate for processing with a
merchant account (2% plus 10 cents per transaction, with a 10 monthly fee)
versus Stripe. Note how the breakeven for getting a merchant account is when
you start processing more than $428 a month(assuming an average transaction is
$15).

[https://www.desmos.com/calculator/zuzn1lhfdg](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/zuzn1lhfdg)

~~~
rossdavidh
My experience in the U.S., admittedly as a very small size merchant, is that
2% +10 cents is considerably better than I can get with a bank.

~~~
StudentStuff
Banks have 2nd tier offerings for credit and debit processing that don't focus
on gaining customers with low rates. There are a handful of platforms, First
Data, Tsys, Elavon, Worldpay/Mercury & Heartland, and everyone who sells
merchant services is selling you access to one of those platforms.

------
iwaffles
We spent a lot of time building a terminal at Sidestep on top of Stripe (and a
few other processors). Everything on the in-person payment level was done
through an iOS or Android device. The hardest part wasn't managing devices
(they could log in on almost any device), but the hardware integration for
accepting credit cards. It exists in various places, but none of it could do
exactly what we wanted to do. CardFlight was the closest to being a stripe
friendly api for swiping cards. Usually the devices for swiping cards were too
expensive and the failure rate was high. I don't think swiping hardware has
gone down, unless you're using Square.

But hardware costs aside, the ability to fully integrate with the API on a
terminal level is the most powerful thing here. It allows for so many cool POS
integrations like the one we building at Sidestep.

To me, the coolest thing about this is that it supports Stripe Connect so you
can create a POS that's used by others without having to deal with any money
transfer yourself. Customer swipes card -> your software -> client's bank
account.

~~~
foobaw
how much fee is collected like this? Stripe Connect takes a fee, Stripe
Terminal takes a fee, etc.

~~~
iwaffles
I don't think the fees stack like that. The terminal page says 2.7% + $0.05
per transaction. I believe that Stripe Connect doesn't take an extra fee, at
least not in my experience.

~~~
aaaaaaass
It does. It takes a percentage of the connected user’s sales AND a $2.00
monthly fee per user AND the normal transaction fee.

~~~
briandear
If there was a competitor to Connect, I would use it. Fees end up being around
3.4%. That’s pretty hard to sell customers on.

~~~
jjeaff
So 3.4% for card present? That will not fly except with the smallest of
businesses. (which is not where the profit is).

------
docker_up
A shot across the bow against Square. This will be very interesting. Payments
has always been a race to the bottom, I wonder how quickly rates will drop for
POS payment providers now that Stripe is going after that business and
directly against Square.

~~~
tyingq
I'm surprised either Square or Stripe would do well in the "card present"
space. 2.9% + 30 cents is pretty big markup if you're "card present".

Edit: See comment below, apparently the 30 cents is now 5 cents for card
present. Helpful, though doesn't necessarily close the whole gap, depending on
transaction mix.

~~~
Zombieball
Could you clarify? Is this markup only on card present transactions?

~~~
tyingq
It's specific to the US. Within the US, if have your own merchant account,
"card present" is a lot cheaper than "card not present".

So far, companies like Paypal, Square, and now Stripe, don't pass those
savings on. They all have one rate that doesn't differentiate.

~~~
docker_up
More importantly, fraud rates are much lower with CP than CNP. If the Visa/MC
in the US goes with a PIN-type system like the rest of the world, fraud rates
drop to near zero, which makes Card Present insanely profitable for them.

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coreyrab
Wondering if this could enable use-cases for in-person subscription selling.
I.e. selling SaaS/subscription content at conferences and tradeshows.

~~~
nateb415
(I work at Stripe)

Yes this is one of the use cases we are excited for users to bring to market
utilizing Stripe Terminal. If you also use Stripe Billing, you can help your
customers initiate a subscription in-person.

~~~
taherchhabra
Is it possible to build this use case: identifing the user using face
recognition during checkout and processing payments based on his card stored
in the system. Also is it possible to export the purchase data to other
systems via API. So as to enable e-commerce style data analytics/customer
engagement for brick and mortar retailers

~~~
jsgo
Outside of being a 2FA/fraud prevention measure, what's the benefit of facial
recognition here (I also imagine a lot of your customer base would be opposed
to the idea of someone storing facial data for this, but I digress)? The card
data should be sufficient for the purpose of linking purchases to an
individual account if one is inclined to do so.

~~~
taherchhabra
In my part of the world, most payments are through cash and very few people
uses cards on day to day basis,hence face recognition.

[https://www.businessinsider.my/7-eleven-facial-
recognition-t...](https://www.businessinsider.my/7-eleven-facial-recognition-
technology-introduced-in-thailand-2018-3)

~~~
jsgo
Ah, that’s a fair point. I read it as facial recognition tying into the card
stored in the system.

------
jf
"People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware."
\- Alan Kay

------
philip1209
Starting a subscription in-person seems like a game-changer.

Also, attribution of in-store purchases to marketing efforts is so hard. I bet
Stripe could help with this, e.g. starting with email address, or tying an
online account to an in-person transaction.

------
orliesaurus
I am working with a company that has small physical stores processing hundreds
of payments every day... and having to rely on all the existing crappy
hardware for taking payments is a pain in the a$$.. this looks like it could
change the game - I'm applying for invite and see what happens next

~~~
taurath
Which is strange, because it seems to me a consumer that there's been an
explosion in POS systems that offer any featureset under the sun. Are the
backend systems just all wonky?

~~~
orliesaurus
Some folks have really old hardware/software systems because the people that
set them up initially (think 5-10 years ago) didnt probably feel confident
with the newer vendors or maybe were incentivized to use the more older crappy
systems that are more reliable but less customizable/hookable

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mrwnmonm
Does stripe has the world best designers? Just wow.

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uptown
Seems like a no-brainer. I see Square terminals everywhere, so the market
seems proven. Anyone know if their pricing is comparable?

~~~
adyus
I'm not sure what Square charges, but a regular POS from your business bank
would be far, far less in percentage for in-person, card-present transactions.
I've seen 1.5% figures here in Europe.

So far, Stripe seems to have lowered the fixed fee from 30¢ to 5¢ and dropped
0.2% off their payment gateway fees.

~~~
earlz
I've heard Europe is more reasonable, but at least as of a few years back
before Square got so popular, there was a ton of fees to having a bank-owned
card reader. Typically required >$1000 deposit just to get the machine, and
then a subscription in excess of $200/month, and if I remember correctly, card
present transactions were around a 2.5% fee... oh, and that was typically just
for Visa and Mastercard. The people I knew with these machines never sprung
for the other networks because the price was so expensive. My parents run some
small businesses, and credit card machine fees were one of the major line
items in their monthly expenses before getting one of those cheap square phone
devices back in 2012 or so. Maybe the banks have made things more competitive
though now that Square has taken at least some of their business.

~~~
TomMarius
My previous startup has card payments from EU cards for 0.9% and 5 CZK

------
joshuakelly
We've been participating in this trial. Happy to answer questions about it.

~~~
jimmy1
Can you give out any more details? Can this replace a restaurant POS system
like Micros, Aloha, Digital Dining, et all? My brother is a restaurant owner
and is struggling with one of those scummy legacy POS systems and I am trying
to help him out of it -- even to the point of rolling an open source POS
system out for him

------
treelovinhippie
Some ideas:

1) Flash up a QR code (and/or NFC) on the device to allow for crypto
payments/buy/sell.

2) Flash up a QR code (and/or NFC) to sell custom store tokens or loyalty
points.

------
pg_bot
Looks awesome, already requested an invite and can't wait to put it in
practice.

The next thing that I really want from Stripe is an API for the analytics they
generate. I would love to be able to display the data that they are already
showing in their web application via something like their elements library. I
want my customers to have a better sense of how their business is doing,
without having to duplicate the work that Stripe is already doing.

~~~
dbbk
I think this must exist? I know you can push the Stripe analytics data to
Databox.

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dopamean
I'm not sure what they mean by creating a "unified experience" and I'm not
sure I understand what exactly can be customized.

~~~
cosn
(I work at Stripe)

The end consumer will have a seamless experience between paying online and
offline -- think buy things online, return in-store (or vice-versa). Your
customers can initiate a subscription in-store that continues online with
Stripe Billing. You will have all your reporting -- for both online and in-
person transactions -- within the Stripe Dashboard. In terms of customization,
we think our new SDKs will make it really easy for you to build the right
checkout experience for your business. Also, you’ll be able to customize some
aspects of the reader display (e.g., logos, color theme, splash screen, etc.).

~~~
dopamean
This makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

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omarforgotpwd
Using Verifone hardware? I'd rather just use Square. Nothing wrong with using
both Square and Stripe for credit card processing.

~~~
cosn
(I work at Stripe)

We currently support two devices and will add support for more in the months
to come. Please request an invite and let us know if there are particular
hardware devices you are interested in us supporting.

~~~
ambicapter
How does the hardware work with the web SDK? I didn't think it was possible to
interface with hardware from a browser.

~~~
sandoz9
Verifone supports HTML subset for user interface, I'd imagine that's the only
thing you can customize.

------
herova
Living in Russia i every time wondering why Stripe or square companies exist.
We have batch of banks which doing this card acquiring, mobile phone operators
who made pos terminals with internet connection and online tax services. And
now i see stripe pos like back in years ago. Wtf.

------
nickjj
Pretty interesting. I wonder if this is going to eventually turn into
something comparable to Shopify's hardware POS offerings[0].

[0]:
[https://www.shopify.com/pos/features#hardware](https://www.shopify.com/pos/features#hardware)

------
osrec
I really hope they have a web based API, not requiring a native app. If they
do, we would love to use them for our PWA
([https://usebx.com](https://usebx.com)) as a bunch of customers ask for this
regularly.

~~~
adyus
It appears there's a Javascript SDK listed as available.

~~~
osrec
I think that really separates them from the rest. With everyone else, you need
a native app to integrate with their terminal. Stripe offering this is really
very cool!

------
andromedavision
Absolutely great. This industry(card processing - esp. in person) is mired by
a ton of ambiguity and it would take a company like Stripe to open it up to
innovation. Cannot wait to see what comes out of this from the ecosystem.

~~~
password03
I couldn't agree more.

Up to now it has been near impossible for third party solutions to end up on
terminals. I've seen these new Verifone terminals and they are awesome. I
can't wait to see what comes of these.

------
sbashyal
We have developed a POS for salons and spa and have been working with various
in-store payment solutions - including Square. None of the existing solutions
meet our needs.

I have applied for an invite - can't wait to get access.

~~~
cosn
(I work at Stripe)

Excited to review your application! We have a lot of users building point of
sale applications for booking and scheduling -- including AtVenu, Mindbody,
Universe, Zenoti.

~~~
dnlsandiego
How likely are startups who are still building out a platform get approved for
beta access? And should startups add that info in the beta request form?

~~~
cosn
(I work at Stripe)

Yep, please tell us as much possible in the form. The Beta is open to all
business in the US.

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jwiley
Can someone clarify what the use-case is for this new functionality? I've
regularly used POS stripe devices based on iPads, is the idea this allows
Stripe to be used on proprietary POS devices?

~~~
cosn
(I work at Stripe)

Stripe Terminal gives developers the flexibility to build custom point of sale
applications that use the Stripe payments platform, with EMV-ready hardware.
The product will be work across the entire suite of Stripe products (Billing,
Radar, Sigma etc.), and we’ll provide native SDKs across several languages.

------
dandigangi
Side note on the design - Absolutely love how well they do with keeping depth
on flat design elements. Stripe design team always does such good work.

------
DenisM
So, no need to worry about PCI compliance, right?

~~~
aembleton
Well you're not holding credit card details, so no there should be no need to
worry about PCI.

~~~
DenisM
I was hoping to hear that from Stripe. The word PCI is nowhere on the headline
page.

~~~
cosn
(I work at Stripe)

Apologies for the delay! Stripe Terminal works with our pre-certified card
readers. This ensures that your transactions are secured by our end-to-end
encryption and that your readers are always up-to-date via our remote
management tools. We’ll share even more information about how we help reduce
your PCI scope with Stripe Terminal when we launch full docs later this week!

------
matdehaast
I am naive in this space, could some explain what is keeping the duopoly of
Visa/MasterCard going?

~~~
chipotle_coyote
While I haven't done a lot of research in this area, I would suspect launching
a new credit card company is just a massive amount of work, very different
from launching a new web app. You're obviously going to be subject to a lot of
banking and capital regulations; you're either going to have to be starting an
actual bank or you're going to have to partner with (at least) one, for
instance. Then you have to figure out how to get businesses to start accepting
you. "This card works everywhere that happens to have a Square-based point of
sale system" is not going to get you to be the next Visa. It's not even going
to get you to be the next Discover.

While Simple was trying to launch a new bank, not a CC processor, their
experience is probably informative here -- they're successful by some
measures, but they failed at disrupting the industry the way they wanted to.
(I'm a Simple customer and have been on the edge of switching back to a
conventional bank for over a year; it's mostly just inertia that keeps me
there.)

~~~
jerrysievert
> While I haven't done a lot of research in this area, I would suspect
> launching a new credit card company is just a massive amount of work

there's a Futurama episode that has a snarky commentary on this - s01e06:

fry: "Do you take Visa?" clerk: "Visa hasn't existed for five hundred years."
fry: "American Express?" clerk: "Six hundred years." fry: "Discover Card?"
clerk: "Hmm...sorry, we don't take Discover."

------
jarboot
I wonder if Stripe or Venmo will be the first to get QR payments going in the
US.

~~~
neivin
The likelihood of QR payments taking off in North America is slim. People love
credit cards. They offer way too much.

This model worked in China because people went from using cash to mobile.

We've been using credit cards forever and there's literally no incentive for
me to use an app like Venmo/Square Cash over my Chase credit card which gives
me points/miles

~~~
password03
It is simple as this and I have seen the research.

The west loves tapping and the east loves scanning (AliPay / WePay)

------
densone
anyone know if it will support pre-auth .. I own a nightclub and this would be
clutch. I saw they have a preauth endpoint. But, can I preauth for $1 and
capture $100

------
thedangler
Of course Canada left out again. lol

~~~
NeighboringOwl
Hiya, I work at Stripe. We want to make sure that Stripe Terminal supports the
major in-person payment methods in market. As you know, Interac is really
important in Canada, and we're working on adding support for that. Stay tuned!

------
foobaw
Competition is good I guess...

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IloveHN84
Can it be also hacked?

