
Show HN: Burner, for temporary phone numbers - gregcohn
http://blog.burnerapp.com/introducing-burner-temporary-phone-numbers-fo
======
dpritchett
Am I wrong in guessing this is a Twilio-powered service?

If so, this is a _brilliant_ pricing model for adding value on top of someone
else's API. One-time App store pricing of $1.99 gets $1.39 to use on
purchasing a short-duration Twilio line and then in-app purchases can be used
to refill extra numbers/minutes, all presumably with enough margin to make
money on top of the basic "reserve and use a Twilio number" functionality.

Just checked and Twilio phone numbers are $1/mo. and 1-2 cents a minute for
calls. There's definitely headroom to make money here.

~~~
gregcohn
We proudly work with Twilio -- though there's a lot of work that's gone into
managing the user-facing aspects of the service and the UX.

~~~
colinsidoti
Are you pushing voice through data or using call forwarding?

------
lallysingh
I'm disturbed by some of the "chill effect" responses here, in the crime/law
enforcement space. Why does an anonymizing product, one designed to protect
the user, get so many questions about use by criminals and ways for law
enforcement to get around it?

Frankly, the job of law enforcement is up to people in law enforcement. We're
not responsible for them. Their physical inability to do certain kinds of harm
is part of the balance between civil rights and law enforcement.

Most people who benefit from Burner won't be criminals. It'll probably end up
reducing crime by protecting potential victims. Most people are good, so when
this thing is doing it's job, it's mostly going to be protecting good people.
The additional safety will encourage people to have a better feeling of safety
in their lives, as they'll be taking smaller risks when using their phone and
interacting with other people. In single life, this thing is frankly a
godsend, and can really make a substantive improvement in many peoples
lives... Especially for those who've previously been victims.

Worrying about whether to protect people, versus easing the jobs of the people
who protect people, is absurdly myopic.

~~~
mbell
I conceptually agree with you but this service is called "Burner", they have
couldn't have picked a worse name for a 'legit' service. They have
metaphorically written "for criminals and wanna be spys" on their back and are
carrying around a 10 foot sign saying "Department of Justice, come and get
me!".

Everyone looking at this service is completely justified in being skeptical
and asking questions.

------
yahelc
So, the term "Burner" is associated with temporary cell phones used by
criminals to avoid wiretaps. Presumably that's the inspiration for the name
and the concept.

What happens if your app indeed becomes a salvage for criminals? What's your
policy around government requests for information about the person who used
the number during a duration? Would you cooperate with subpoenas, or is this
really only private on a social but not legal level?

~~~
heretohelp
This app probably isn't useful for avoiding wiretaps unless they've gone
through the hassle of building an encrypted VOIP client (not likely?).

Also this is the same moralizing question asked about everything ever that
could possibly be used for nefarious reasons on this site.

Aren't you bored seeing the same questions over and over about mostly
interchangeable subjects?

~~~
jack-r-abbit
to be fair, I don't think the parent comment was trying to moralize anything.
I think it is a legitimate question to ask about their policy regarding
handing info over to law enforcement and what not. A question worthy of an
answer.

~~~
gregcohn
It is certainly a fair question, one that deserves a clear answer. Our first
principle in thinking about privacy is to be clear to our users in what we are
and are not doing with their information.

We designed Burner explicitly and thoughtfully around _user-to-user_ privacy
and anonymity. Burner enables users to communicate by voice and text without
exchanging their "real" (ie permanent, or even semi-permanent a la Google
Voice) numbers, while still using the familiar form factors of phone calls and
SMS, and without requiring their counterparties to download apps or join a
network.

Burner can be used for anything from dating and craigslist transactions to
posting publicly on twitter, to pure entertainment and other things we haven't
thought of yet.

The way Burner works, very explicitly, is as a bridge between your phone and
others. In other words, calls run over your mobile carrier and your
counterparty's carrier, via a bridge that we manage, so that your counterparty
doesn't see your callerID endpoint. SMS messages are slightly different
technically, but effectively similar. Presuming your counterparty is not on
Burner, on their end it's just like a regular phone call or SMS -- ie on their
mobile or wireline carrier, on their phone hardware, etc.

It should be obvious given the above that we have no control over these 3rd-
party carriers, and we certainly aren't in a position to direct their policies
and procedures. We also work with 3rd parties like Twilio for other parts of
the number issuance and telelphony process, rackspace for hosting, and so on.
It should also be obvious that we have no control over hardware, software, or
3rd-party apps (or malware) on your counterparties' phones.

Given all of the above, Burner was explicitly _not_ designed as a product
that's for or meant to be marketed for encrypted or otherwise absolute,
leakproof anonymous communication channels. (There are other services
available for this, like Tor and Silentcircle, and many very legitimate uses
for them, as I'm sure many HN members know.)

We've tried to be thoughtful and clear in our communications, terms of
service, and privacy policies about our service, both in terms of what we
don't say, and what we do say (various specific uses, for example, are very
explicitly against our TOS). We would also be happy post more clearly about
our processes (at least to the degree we can), if that would help users make
more informed decisions about whether to use Burner.

We are a U.S. corporation operating in the U.S -- in case it's not obvious, we
are obliged to and intend to comply with U.S. laws and valid court orders that
apply to us. That said, as a company value and personally, we _strongly_
respect the principles of free speech and have lots of concerns about the
current state of affairs with respect to wiretapping and the laws that apply
to it. We will do everything we can to ensure that any laws or law enforcement
requests are indeed applicable and valid, to take as "pro-user" a privacy
position as possible within our legal and privacy framework, and to continue
to communicate clearly with our users about what we are and aren't doing.

I hope this helps answer the question.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
Perfectly clear. Thank you. I think in a case like this having it explicitly
stated that you'll protect our _user-to-user_ privacy AND fully comply with
applicable laws and LEO requests removes most of the doubt. And that makes it
pretty obvious that if we are the 1% that uses this service for evil doing, we
are not to expect much in the way of privacy. I think that actually makes
things better for the other 99% that have no plans to do evil. I don't think
your average Craigslist seller or online dater is going to be that concerned
over it. A drug dealer might be... should be. And that makes things better for
everyone. I can think of a few uses cases I could apply to this service. The
rates seem reasonable to me (having done zero comparison shopping).
Unfortunately, I don't do iOS... so I'm unable to be a customer at this time.
But best of luck to you.

~~~
jhstrauss
FWIW, I have seen mentions in some of the coverage that they plan an Android
version (if that indeed would help you). Given the deep integration with the
phone dialer and other device hooks as well as the in-app purchasing model, I
can understand why they wanted to start with a single mobile platform
(whatever it may be).

------
helipad
This was the first idea I came up with when I thought about the Twilio API, so
I'm glad someone has done it.

I just projected so far down the line that I would have requests from the FBI
every day for who was behind particular phone numbers due to nefarious use of
temporary phone numbers.

~~~
dpritchett
Government information requests are a _huge_ potential revenue stream, up to
$1000 a pop:

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/04/03/these-a...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/04/03/these-
are-the-prices-att-verizon-and-sprint-charge-for-cellphone-wiretaps/)

------
frankus
This got a chilly reception when I proposed it almost a decade ago: ;)

[http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/One-time-
use_20phone_20number...](http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/One-time-
use_20phone_20number#1052586000)

~~~
gregcohn
Good ideas come in cycles. At that time, though, 50% of the world wasn't
mobile-only, and there were no smartphones. We think this is really relevant
right now.

~~~
frankus
The phrase I've heard is that being early is the same as being wrong. Trying
to make Burner in 2003 would be like trying to make YouTube in 1996.

------
jentulman
So I'm wondering how you don't eventually run out of numbers if they're burnt
and then go to an out of service message.

Do they get reused eventually with the hope that the time since burning is
long enough for the old usage of the number to have died off?

[edit] Sorry, didn't see PanMan had asked virtually the same question already.

~~~
Scriptor
From my personal experience I think some numbers do get reused. When I first
got my Google Voice number I kept getting a bunch of calls asking for some
other person, so I guess Google just reused someone else's old number.

~~~
rodelrod
Numbers do get reused. I live in Paris and last year a friend freshly arrived
from my hometown in Portugal was attributed the cellphone number (major French
operator) from a german acquaintance of mine that had moved out of Paris a
year before. She still gets text messages in German all the time.

------
jack-r-abbit
I assume this is incoming only? or can a Burner number be used to make calls
and send texts? Either way, I see huge value in something like this (too bad
you are iOS only). But the value is even greater if the Burner number can be
used for out going communication.

~~~
gregcohn
in-bound and outbound, calls and texts. and you can turn the ringer and/or
message notifications on and off as you like.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
So I create a Burner number and then I can make calls against that number and
the recipient would see the Burner number in their Caller ID? Nice... that has
huge value! Also open for abuse but anything can be abused.

------
stanmancan
This is a brilliant idea. I had this exact same one myself a few months ago
and never moved forward with it because I had no clue how to execute it
properly. Without having installed the app, from the way it's described it
sounds like Burner nailed it. Well done guys. I really hope this gets ported
to Android so I can use it myself.

------
PanMan
Great idea: I assume app + backend + twillio API?

The only think that might confuse people is if you start to recycle numbers
(because you don't want to keep paying for them), and the call gets connected
somewhere totally unrelated.

~~~
gregcohn
Definitely an issue we've been mindful of and designed for.

~~~
mmahemoff
How did you design for this?

I thought you might be using caller ID, so the number is only relevant to
people with a specified phone number. (Similar to how Rebtel works.) But it
doesn't seem to be the case here, as I think numbers can be shown publicly.

~~~
gregcohn
All phone numbers have some ambient activity -- wrong numbers alone account
for at least some randomness, though some obviously have more than others, and
even very established carriers sometimes distribute numbers with a "legacy".
So it's sort of a known problem.

For Burner, each number goes through a quarantine and is monitored for
activity before we use it.

EDIT: Also worth noting that SMS seems to be more popular than voice calls, at
least initially. "Wrong number SMS" doesn't seem like an actual problem as of
yet.

------
quintendf
This looks like a great concept- but I have to question the one time purchase
price.

Right now, Burner is top of mind for me, but I don't have an immediate need to
use the app. If it were free, I would gladly download it right now, and simply
pay for a number whenever a use case arises.

As it stands now, I probably won't download the app, and when a potential use
case does arise, who knows if I'll remember (and be able to download on the
fly) this app.

Great concept, and love the rest of the pricing model built on Twilio. I just
think the Burner team might be missing out on potential additional
distribution.

~~~
asmithmd1
Why do people treat buying an app with the same amount of deliberation as
buying a new car? The price is less than a large coffee at Dunkin Donuts.

I don't mean to be picking on you quintendf because I do exactly the same
thing and your comment made me realize it. I am going to download the app just
because of your arguement - I am going to need it sometime in the next few
months and not remember the name.

There must be some cognitive bias about buying an app. I will blow $2 on a
Diet Coke when I fill-up with gas with barely a second thought. But ask me to
download a $2 app - Whoa! this is going to take some thought, research...

~~~
icebraining
<http://theoatmeal.com/blog/apps>

~~~
asmithmd1
Yep, that is exactly me.

Are we hardwired to not spend when we get nothing (physical) in return?

Do movies "hack" this behavior by handing you a ticket?

Will my 6 and 8 year old daughters not have this behavior "tick?" They already
see no problem with asking to spend $50 on a chest of gems.

~~~
jh3
If most apps were $5 and $10 instead of free and $.99, you would probably buy
the $5 apps and wish the $10 were $5. For better or worse, people expect
mobile apps to be <$1 or free.

------
patrickmclaren
"You can use a Burner for dating, Craigslist, short-term projects, side
businesses, bands, and other times when you need to be in touch but want to
maintain a little privacy." -- Such as when I want to be a royal pain in the
ass towards ex-girlfriends, and people that I generally dislike. How have you
planned to reduce angst caused by the misuse of your app?

~~~
hnriot
This explains why they are ex girlfriends! Why on earth would the app get
involved in how the app is used, that's th responsibility of the user, just
like when you buy a kitchen knife, the designer wasn't giving much
consideration to reducing angst caused by its misuse.

Please let's stop with the nanny state nonsense. As others have pointed out
its no different to pay phones.

~~~
AkThhhpppt
You have access to infinite payphones just outside your door?

More seriously: what's wrong with asking developers to think about what their
creations are enabling?

~~~
hosh
Nothing wrong with asking developers to think about what their creations are
enabling. Let's not confuse the root cause though. The technology brings our
shadow side out into the open. That same shadow side may itself allow for
positive changes in society.

------
patio11
That's perhaps not the name/positioning you want when you get the (inevitable)
abuse complaint.

~~~
gregcohn
When we tested out other names, people kept saying, "you mean like a burner?"

------
ck2
Craigslist is able to block all google-voice numbers, I am sure they will be
able to block these based on some routing identifier.

~~~
Timothee
What do you mean "block all google-voice numbers"?

As in automatically removing them from posts? That would be very stupid
because some people use their Google Voice number exclusively, and it
shouldn't be up to them to decide how I should be contacted.

~~~
ck2
Sorry to clarify I mean for posting verification.

It's very annoying, they do it to combat spammers but as an innocent user I
get hit all the time with the phone verification.

 _Craigslist requires that your number be identified as "Fixed Line" or
"Mobile" (not "Non-Fixed VoIP" or "Prepaid Mobile") by their provider,
ReduceFraud.com, in order for you to be able to complete phone number
verification and post in certain sections on CraigsList._

------
jhuckestein
If it's Twilio, then numbers will only cost 50 cents in volume pricing so this
could be a nice model. I'm skeptical about handling dead numbers though.
Either the service hangs on to them which will cost them $.5/month in
perpetuity or they release them to Twilio in which case other apps can use
them.

I recommend checking out Plivo btw. They're cheaper in every way and I've
heard the voice quality is better.

My company uses Twilio now and just made up my mind to switch to Plivo as soon
as I have some free time.

~~~
lelandbatey
Oh, I'm curious to here about Plivo. I've seen quite a bit of Twilio (they
promote a lot at our events) but I've never heard of Plivo before. Are there
any downsides to Plivo vs Twilio? If not, I may use Plivo more often.

~~~
bevenky
Hey Leland, This is Venky, One of the cofounders of Plivo. Would love to have
a chat to explain what we do. Mail me up at venky@plivo.com and we can catch
up :)

------
WimLeers
It'd be interesting if this was VOIP. Then you'd be able to get a temporary
(or pseudo-permanent) U.S. number from outside the U.S.

~~~
gregcohn
Agree!

~~~
WimLeers
Even better: if you would be able to choose the country the number should be
from… :)

------
nicc_ap
Wow!! We hacked up something similar few months back as a side project. Nice
validation :). You have some real nice UX and figured out the pricing as well.
Best wishes.

<http://www.getroller.com>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4076883>

~~~
gregcohn
nice! what happened with it?

~~~
nicc_ap
We have been getting some consistent traffic, but need more push to market
ourselves. Got real good feedback from both users, friends and HN, but getting
the real consumer to use it is the key I guess. You guys figured out the
pricing, which is great and being an iphone app you can use the in-app
purchasing. We were more web focussed. Also, not generating real phone numbers
as you did.

I might still add some more features to it, but thinking about the direction
right now :)

------
Tyrannosaurs
I wonder if they keep track of who had what number and when?

Just thinking about whether law enforcement or the courts can get details.

~~~
Timothee
I'm hoping they do, but it would actually get tricky.

Law enforcement wants info on a phone number -> it goes to Twilio -> Twilio
links this number at that time to Burner -> Burner links this number at that
time to a user account. At this point, I'm not sure how they can link it to a
real person. I'm guessing the credits are from in-app purchases, which means
Burner itself might not have any real personal info on you and the buck then
passes to Apple.

That means three different privacy policies involved and most likely a pretty
long delay.

------
nicc_ap
Greg, Wouldn't it be a better idea to release the app for free and then use
in-app purchases for the numbers? That way you would not scare away the people
who just want to download and see what it does. People may argue that $1.49 is
nothing, but why lose potential customers.

~~~
gregcohn
Per above, we considered that but didn't want to create bad will with a "free"
app that didn't do anything until you added more money. (It's also against
Apple TOS, though widely flouted.)

In the future we may consider something more along the lines of a free sample.

------
arturadib
Neat idea. A couple of thoughts:

1- They better have a very large pool of unused numbers - otherwise it's
likely my phone will be randomly ringing due to the many past users of the
number I just bought... who knows where and how many times they would have
posted the number at.

2- Personally, I don't immediately see how I'd go away from Google Voice,
which is free, to a paid service. Because of the above, I prefer to have one
or two fixed private numbers which I can always remember. If the number
becomes a problem, I can always block the annoying caller or switch to a new
number - for free. (I still haven't had to replace my year-old private number,
btw).

That being said, it'd be neat to see what people end up doing with true throw-
away numbers.

------
Timothee
I like that the video on your homepage shows most of the functionality pretty
quickly, but I realized that I spent the whole demo with my head tilted to the
right. There's no need for that tilt.

(somehow, it now says "this video does not exist" right now)

~~~
gregcohn
you could always tilt the screen? ;-)

(there was a brief outage as we switched video hosts)

------
g123g
RingCentral, a more established player in this space, has been providing a
similar service since last year

<http://mashable.com/2011/09/12/ringcentral-new-numbers/>

~~~
gregcohn
Been gone from the app store for months. RingCentral, along with lots of other
players, are focused on small business IVR types of service. Quite different.

------
Kartificial
I don't know about iPhones, but can't you just set your phone to appear as
'unknown caller' (so, no phone number is transmitted)? Or is this not really
invisible?

~~~
ch0wn
This app gives you a new number for _incoming_ calls and messages.

~~~
icebraining
Their iTunes page says you can make outbound calls and messages:
[http://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/burner-disposable-phone-
numbe...](http://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/burner-disposable-phone-
numbers/id505800761?mt=8)

~~~
ch0wn
You're right. You can see it in the video, as well.

------
DenisM
Google search for "disposable phone number" turns up a number of offers, sOme
already out of business. What makes you think you have a business here?

------
jhendren
Please open up an API or provide a webpage to allow non-smartphone users the
opportunity to use it. I'm not sure how the internals work with your app, and
I hope they are not too coupled to iOS.

I have a very basic cell phone, since I prefer using a laptop to do my
browsing/email/development. I like to disconnect at least half my day, and not
be at the beck and call (excuse the pun) of a smartphone.

~~~
nicc_ap
Hey, give this a try. Let us know if your feedback. Its web based and free
right now to try.

www.getroller.com

------
vsl
Any particular reason why the app is only available in the US store, seeing
that Twilio has international coverage?

------
fuzzythinker
How long does the initial $2 last? Where is the cost to durations credit
table? Can't find this info anywhere.

~~~
gregcohn
you get one number, good for up to a week or 20 voice minutes / 60 messages,
with the initial purchase. after that you can get more burners on a similar
basis.

------
sspiff
Is this coming to Android at any time?

------
huhtenberg
So this presumably should allow registering anonymous Gmail accounts?

~~~
lizzard
Yes, so if law enforcement (for example) were trying to find out the phone
number for a Gmail account, they would then have to go to Burner or Twilio to
get records for the Burner phone number account. I guess it depend on what
level of anonymity or privacy you're going for.

~~~
kragniz
Wait, does Gmail ask for a phone number when signing up these days?

~~~
thomaslangston
It did sometimes. I think a cookie/IP limit kicked after it detected "you" had
created a few accounts.

~~~
ct0
It is extremely easy to create an anonymous number already, let alone a gmail
account. A friend of a friend daisy chains anonymous numbers with physical
burners for a "proxy" effect.

------
noinput
Really wonderful job on this app. Just tested it out (ios6b4 on a 4s) and all
worked really well and very fast. Would love to see some usage data as you
grow. Congrats on shipping!

~~~
gregcohn
thanks -- so glad u like it!

------
meursault
Awesome idea. You don't seem to be listed in non-US app stores (Canada, in my
case). Any plans to be available internationally, or at least in the same
countries served by Twilio?

~~~
gregcohn
The app is available in Canada. If you have trouble finding it in the iOS app
store there, let me know.

~~~
meursault
I eventually found it by searching "burner phone". Fyi, your iTunes link on
the site is broken for me, giving a generic "can't connect to iTunes Store".
Thanks :)

------
brianbreslin
LOVE this idea. actually thought of something like this a few months back, but
never got around to doing anything on this. you should post what the costs are
for numbers etc.

~~~
nicc_ap
That would be too much to ask, isn't it :). But you can figure out some
pricing from the twilio's website

------
philipDS
Very clever idea. Any plans on an Android version?

~~~
gregcohn
Nothing to announce yet, but we are looking at this.

------
merrick
Did the founders watch The Wire - love the name!

------
adelivet
Does anyone know if they plan to launch the same service in Europe soon? Or
does a similar service exist?

~~~
gregcohn
We are definitely looking at expanding our international coverage as soon as
we practically can. Nothing to announce formally yet though.

------
nilsbunger
Abso-f*cking brilliant. (downloading)

~~~
gregcohn
:-)

------
ApolloRising
Pricing seems a bit steep for what you get, especially since it is not obvious
before you buy the app.

~~~
gregcohn
Thanks for sharing that feedback. We can work on making it more obvious, at
least. (It's meant to be and our SKU's are also made visible by apple in the
app store, but I'm sure there's more we could do.)

------
twelvedigits
You, sir, win the award for best product name. And shame, HN, for not
complimenting him sooner.

~~~
sethg
Shouldn’t it be called “Burnr”?

------
PonyGumbo
Bravo, man. This is so brilliant.

------
jcfrei
does burner support short codes for sms? and is there an android version
planned?

~~~
matznerd
why would you want to use a shortcode with this?

------
thedangler
Currently making one right now.... At least I have some nice competition.

------
amolsarva
Technology + freedom. The opposite of GoogleWorld

------
drcongo
Please bring this to the UK app store. Please.

------
draftable
You should get Wendell Pierce as a spokesman

------
drewrv
Looks great, but why is it an iphone app? Seems like managing and configuring
a bunch of numbers would be easier in a web interface.

~~~
gregcohn
Making outbound calls via a Burner number requires knowing where the call is
originating.

------
tomjen3
Is there any good use of this app that is not basically to annoy people?

Because I can't really come up with any.

~~~
netcan
Watch "The Wire."

~~~
netcan
Seriously though there are lots of licit uses:

-girl goes out to to pull. Gives her number freely knowing that it's only good for a few days.

\- enter online competitions that might be spam. Advertise a job without
getting onto a HR spam list

\- Sell a used monkey online without fear of monkey spam

\- Put up an MVP for a salsa lesson in Denmark. Get a local number using the
app you already know about from the monkey business

\- Set up sales meeting with your competitors (define licit..)

\- Inform on your boss

\- Call your uncle in Iran

I'm sure there are lots more. Who doesn't have some temporary/secondary email
addresses?

------
barakstout
A drug dealers dream...

------
sankara
Is there a reason you chose to do this as an app instead of a webapp?

------
nqzero
does this service work with MMS ?

~~~
Timothee
No, since it's not supported by Twilio at this time.

