

Those with $120K+ salaries... what do you do? - summerlunch

I know a lot of amazing programmers who have been working for about five years, yet they still make less than $100K. I don't want to end up like them in my career and I was wondering how I could set my career path to earn more.
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patio11
In answer to the general query for advice:

Short version: program things which make your employers lots of money, and get
in the habit of mentioning that repeatedly when you negotiate aggressively for
more compensation. Long version: [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-
call-yourself-a-pro...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-
yourself-a-programmer/)

A personal anecdote: In 2006 I wrote CRUD apps, talked to people, and read a
lot of documents. In 2013 I will write CRUD apps, talk to people, and read a
lot of documents. I'll also get paid probably in excess of 10X what I made in
2006. To the extent that the difference involves programming, it's largely not
because I've suddenly graduated to Guru Rockstar Ninja and more because I
figured out how to apply programming to a few of capitalism's pressure points.
(Mostly involving selling more software.) This turns out to be fantastically
more valuable than writing CRUD apps to e.g. manage student lists for
university back offices. This difference is a _lot_ more important than other
competing explanations like where I live, what industry I work in, or the fact
that I changed from J2EE to (mostly) Ruby on Rails in the interim.

There are many HNers whose programming skill is a key asset to their line of
work and yet would not be classified as programmers, by the way. I encourage
you to not see their jobs as out-of-scope if your goals are making a lot of
money while continuing to program. That's quite a bit of the solution set.
(Then again, AmaGooBookSoft have many, many uncomplicated "We give you
instructions, you producing working code implementing them" jobs which would
meet your requirements.)

~~~
summerlunch
Okay, so use my programming ability as a tool that solves business problems.
But that seems a little too abstract. What are some "business problems" that I
could solve with RoR? What are some of the ways I could discover them?

~~~
patio11
_What are some "business problems" that I could solve with RoR?_

Consider a real estate agent. Real estate agents spend most of their time
prospecting for leads. Leads convert at X% into sales, where the agent earns
6% of the transaction price. Any system you can deliver for a real estate
agent which increases the number of leads they have or the percent which
eventually turn into sales solves a problem for them.

Consider an insurance company. Insurance companies have prospects and
successfully sell some percentage of them policies, which transfer risks from
the insured to them. The insured occasionally suffer losses, which results in
them filing a claim against the insurance company, which the company will
investigate and probably pay. Between the time an insurance company collects
payments and pays claims, it has use of the "float" created by money which is
probabalistically owed to someone but not paid yet on its books, and it can
invest this float profitably. Software can increase the number of prospects
they have and/or the percentage of prospects who are successfully convinced to
buy policies. Software can assist (or replace) very expensive human
underwriters, who judge whether a particular client is worth taking on and, if
so, at what price. Software can _greatly_ improve underwriting profits.
Software can streamline the costs involved in processing claims. Software can
be used to assist companies in paying out less claims that are actually
outside of their policy requirements but which had previously been paid due to
error or the infeasibility of adjusting them profitably. Software can increase
the profits of management of float.

Consider a SaaS company. Ignore the product. There's four numbers of interest
in that company: visitors per month, new trials per month, average plan price,
and churn rate. Software can move those numbers up, up, up, and down,
respectively.

Working in any industry will tend to expose you to a lot of these
opportunities. After you have the mindset, the question is more-or-less as
simple as asking an accountant "How would you look at a company and find where
money is being spent?" I mean, if he were pressed for time, he might say "By
looking", though there's a longer way to phrase that.

~~~
summerlunch
Okay, your accountant example has made it clear that there is really no
obvious way of finding business problems by just merely looking from the
outside. Now I guess I should figure out how to expose myself to an industry.

What is your opinion on the effectiveness of speaking to people and asking
them directly about their problems? Or am I better off reading industry
magazines/blogs/forums and kind of examining them in their natural habitat?

~~~
patio11
_Okay, your accountant example has made it clear that there is really no
obvious way of finding business problems by just merely looking from the
outside._

I don't think that was the takeaway I was going for. An accountant, told "Tell
me where the money goes in a taco truck", would be able to do do a napkin
sketch of that in under a minute. "Describe at least one business problem
amenable to a software solution that a taco truck has" does not strike me as
being terribly difficult. (Actually selling it to them in a scalable fashion?
Much more difficult, but that's largely because they're a taco truck.)

 _What is your opinion on the effectiveness of speaking to people and asking
them directly about their problems?_

I find that listen to people is often an effective strategy for learning from
them. I feel I have to add the disclaimer "That is my sincere attempt to
answer that question" to that sentence. Often, not-software-people do not have
a great handle on what software could actually do for them, so asking them
"What software do you wish existed?" doesn't work all that well, but asking
them for top-of-mind business problems is not that difficult.

 _Or am I better off reading industry magazines/blogs/forums and kind of
examining them in their natural habitat?_

These two activities don't compete with each other. Either or both are more
effective than neither. Don't do neither. If you're currently doing neither,
start doing either or both.

~~~
summerlunch
Wow okay, to be honest with you, I could not answer that question about the
taco truck. But I will try to understand businesses more better. Thank you so
much for your helpful answers. My head is now filled with a million more
questions. Do you mind if I email you sometime?

~~~
hiddenfeatures
He probably doesn't. patrick@[any domain he owns] Also see
<http://www.kalzumeus.com/standing-invitation/>

~~~
GFischer
Patrick is amazing, I hope we're not imposing on him too much. He helped me a
lot when I did an Ask HN in the past (and he was right too :) )

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codegeek
How I did it :

\- started in a particular industry

\- Kept working in same industry and built "domain expertise". Need min 5+,
ideally 8+ years of "actual" experience.

\- Changed jobs 3-4 times within the first 5 years. But remained in the same
industry. Built a lot of networks/contacts on the way. (Job hopping is not
necessarily a bad thing in today's world if you know how to do it properly).
Every hop, negotiated a good raise (15-20% in US is good raise). I always sold
myself using the "value" that I was already bringing to the table because I
was in the same domain doing _specific_ thing that the next employer really
_needed_.

\- Finally after 5 years of solid experience, decided it was time to go
consulting on my own. Started talking to all my contacts in the industry where
I was already known/valuable and started somewhere. Charge flat Daily rate and
take care of your own expenses.

\- Raise your rates at the end of _every_ engagement. But try and get long
term engagements as well. Personally, i work on 18+ months contracts (the
nature of my industry and projects). So by the time you are done 1st time,
client usually wants you bad enough to give you a decent raise. Won't always
work however.

\- Never settle for less if you know your worth. So first figure out what you
are worth to a prospective employer whom you are interested in or who is
interested in you. Always fight for the extra few grand. Why ? Because the
next time you are negotiating with the next guy, those few grands will make a
difference on what number you are asking for next. People _always_ look at
what you are making currently unless you are an expert in your field or were
currently underpaid for whatever reason etc.

~~~
terrykohla
Yup, these same steps got me there. In my industry the shortage was so bad
that after 3 years I could become a contractor and make 100K+.

If you want to make money you have to be a businessman in addition to being a
good programmer/engineer or else other businessmen will take the money on the
table.

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tzm
Fwiw, I focused on enterprise consulting.. mobile dev, training and product
design. Daily rates (no hourly). Focused on high value, high impact
discussions.. converted these engagements into development agreements,
licensed revenue, etc.

Specifically, I built mobile components and server systems for mobilizing data
(spreadsheet-to-app conversions, etc). I then used these components and
services to help speed up their mobile strategies, provided high quality
training materials, and positioned my company for long-term revenue from
licensed IP.

I'm currently at the stage where I have a strong client list and a marketable
product, which is attracting investors, more clients, etc.

It's just myself and one engineer at the moment. I do both design and
development for mobile and back-end systems.

Btw, you don't need to move to the Valley or NYC. I traveled the majority of
2011. All client work started as onsite engagements, then moved to remote.

Hopefully sharing this will help you in some way.

~~~
summerlunch
Thank you, your reply did help. So I guess you've started as a consultant and
then moved into creating your own products?

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delkant
JEE. I don't even speak English well, but I have a lot of experience with Java
Enterprise, something that is very useful for big companies in USA. I never
worked for a company with less than a 1.000 employees tough. I think you will
get a better salary working with Java if you can develop enough experience.

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rdouble
Move to New York or the Bay Area.

~~~
caw
Seconded. My friends in high cost of living cities make more than lower cost
of living in terms of raw dollars, but they don't always make more once you
take into account living expenses.

EDIT: I meant "seconded" in that you'll obtain your $120k salary in high COL
areas, but it's not necessarily the best choice. I wasn't advocating actually
moving there (I'm in Austin)

~~~
throwaway1979
No! A 120K salary in NYC is equal to 40-60K in other parts of the country! I
felt like a pauper living in Manhattan. Yes ... people will say, you can live
in Brooklyn/Queens/Bronx and take the subway. But the quality of life is very
very different. I don't want to get into a debate of how much one can save. It
is true that if you are single, live with 3 roommates and can survive on the
free food that you get in meetups, living and working in NYC will let you earn
and save a lot. If you are a bit older, want to live in Manhattan, don't want
room mates, etc. they money isn't enough. For me, I calculated a salary of
250K would be the minimum I'd need to make in order for Manhattan to be a
feasible tradeoff. This is for my expense profile and extremely personal. That
said, I don't think I am a diva by any means. A 30+ year old shouldn't need
room mates to survive. And doormen and elevators are kinda necessary when you
have a busy life.

~~~
rdouble
Right, but where are these elusive low CoL places one can make $120K+ as a
programmer? A $120K salary in NYC is equal to $40-60K in other parts of the
country, sure. But in most other parts of the country, you will indeed be
making $40-60K as a programmer.

~~~
orangethirty
I do that remotely from the Caribbean.

~~~
ag_47
wow.. my dream life. I truly hope to be in a similar position someday (just
starting my 1st job). If you feel like it.. do tell a bit more.

~~~
orangethirty
Shoot me an email with any questions.

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ericswc
First, you have to know your value... and probably change jobs. Unfortunately
most corporations have HR policies in place that prevent you from rapidly
increasing salary unless you are promoted.

Second, you have to be more than a programmer, you need to be someone who can
blend roles into project management, business analysis, strategy etc as well
as make the people around you better.

Third, you need to in demand skills but maintain versatility. This is hard
work. I work a 40 but I practice another 10-20 every week.

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beat
Five years isn't really enough experience to be a serious tech lead or a high-
end consultant. Come back when you have ten years. The guys I know who are
making over $100k WERE those "amazing programmers" five years into their
career, but now they're twenty years in. I was an amazing programmer five
years in as well, but I wasn't worth $100k even in today's dollars. You need
more experience than that!

~~~
rdouble
Five years is more than enough to make $150K+ as an iPhone developer.

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zerr
Another interesting question: at the end of the year, how much did you save?

Please also clarify whether you're a single or have a family.

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jrjarrett
Are you talking just salary? Where?

I've been working for 25 years and haven't crested the $100K mark (upstate NY
& midwest) in gross salary. But that goes a long way here.

However I get several weeks of paid vacation, health insurance, 401K match,
profit sharing. Any other position I have looked at lately is a step backwards
from that.

------
bobfirestone
Enterprise rails consulting.

Enterprise is never going to be as sexy as working for a startup. But they do
have project budgets that exceed most company A rounds. The work is not very
exciting and things often have to be done in ways that you wound never even
fathom on a personal project but they make up for it by paying above market
rates.

~~~
hamf
Could you elaborate more? this is an intersection of interests for me

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orangethirty
Market yourself correctly. Most people don't care about doing this, so they
miss out. But those who do, well, really benefit. I'm on my way to doubling
last year's net profits through plain and simple marketing. Its not hard, and
doesn't even take much time. Does make a world of differend (in the bank
account).

~~~
tempi35
Could you please give 2-3 examples of marketing moves that helped you directly
in getting more?

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USNetizen
Learn the management side of things, not just the technical. Get certified in
project management - either PMP or Agile/CSM. When you offer value on both the
technical side and the management side of things, businesses are far more apt
to pay you more.

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sharemywin
Traveling Consults make good money. Also when your young and don't have a
family. Guidewire is really hot right now just not sure how you get into it if
you aren't already in an insurance company.

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hackNightly
I would like to add that you need also be the type of individual that isn't
afraid to ask for what you're worth in the market. Employers will gladly pay
you less if you're willing to take it.

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miker64
I work in operations. In the Bay Area.

In a year or two, I'll be moving my family to the Nashville area, while
retaining my Bay Area job, and it's pay scale.

One day I'll sleep again.

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calgaryeng
Work in "real" engineering in oil&gas.

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philfreo
Work in the SF bay area at a larger startup or tech company and be great at
what you do.

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michaelpinto
Go to where the demand is: Location and the right programming language

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orokusaki
I'm a Python (specifically Django, currently) developer. The key isn't what
you do though. It's A) being an entrepreneur (1099 > W2), B)work your ass off,
and C) always ask for more but act like you have some humility in the process
(don't play much hardball with dev managers...).

