
Ask HN: Where is the Django community? - ciniglio
I'm debating whether to pick up Ruby on Rails in addition to my basic django knowledge, and as I explore the RoR community, I can't help but be amazed at how rich and active it is. For learning rails there are 3 very high quality books that talk about the latest version (Rails Way, Rails Tutorial, Agile Web Development with Rails). Compare this to the books available Django, none of which discuss the latest edition and many of which are outdated(e.g. Django book v2 (the latest ed.) covers Django 1.0!).<p>This doesn't touch on the huge number of blogs/sites that are dedicated to ruby news and tips (e.g. planetrubyonrails, railscasts, etc.).<p>Is there a reason for this discrepancy between the two ecosystems? Am I just not aware of where the Django community lives? Also, for those of you using Django or Rails, did the size of the community for your framework of choice influence your decision?
======
ulvund
List of communities:

[https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/DjangoResources#Communit...](https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/DjangoResources#Community)

Mailing lists:

<https://www.djangoproject.com/community/> on the right

Sizes of communities:

reddit:

<http://www.reddit.com/r/django> \- 4,181 readers

<http://www.reddit.com/r/rails> \- 1,994 readers

<http://www.reddit.com/r/rubyonrails> \- 921 readers

Stackoverflow:

<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/django> 20k tagged

<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/ruby-on-rails> 40k tagged

~~~
malero
<http://www.reddit.com/r/python> \- 22,586 readers
<http://www.reddit.com/r/ruby> \- 8,211 readers

<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/python> \- 66k tagged
<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/ruby> \- 26k tagged

------
tghw
I think part of the difference is that the Django docs are just so good, there
isn't a lot I can think of that a book would add.

DjangoSnippets.org is also pretty useful, as are the multitudes of Django apps
available on GitHub and BitBucket.

You can also hang out in #django on freenode. People can sometimes be a bit
gruff with noobs (though what IRC channel isn't) but there are usually some
good discussions going on there.

~~~
ehutch79
The django docs arn't as good as they're made out to be, at least not any
more. The major problem is they're lagging behind at this point, in both using
the new core features such as class based views, and in best practices, such
as the tutorial teaching reusable apps.

the core devs have said this themselves though on stage at cons, so i'm sure
it'll get fixed at some point.

~~~
batiste
The lack of documentation for class based view is quite annoying! How can they
release a feature without at least a few lines?

------
c4urself
tl;dr; (Not meant as a smart-ass comment but...) they're busy building stuff.

I think one of the interesting with Django is just how easy it is to get
started with it without prior programming knowledge. I believe this has to do
with Python itself and the great docs on Djangoproject.com

Just start doing the tutorial and voila. This has introduced a large amount of
new programmers to Django and Python, making it gain in popularity extremely
quickly. Case in point: when Django 1.0 came out the "core team" was often on
Google Groups "django-users" answering even the most basic questions about
programming.

Now most have moved on from Lawrence to businesses of their own; e.g. they're
building cool new things. Other users within the Django community need to take
over the baton and build up the community. I truly think there are tons of
developers out there that are just using Django and haven't taken time to
contribute back (I'm partly looking at myself) I think a new surge can take
place in Django development in that respect; the user base Django has accrued
over the years need to start returning the investment as it were.

Speaking for myself, I've been able to find most if not all information I
needed online, and haven't so much needed to go to meetups or even irc and
google groups. In this respect the lack of Django community you speak of rests
on my shoulders and other Django users out there who haven't taken the time to
contribute back to the community.

EDIT: I'm going to make a point of being more involved in the community via
IRC etc.

~~~
mtogo
_I think one of the interesting with Django is just how easy it is to get
started with it without prior programming knowledge._

Wait, you're kidding right? Django is positively _horrible_ for beginning
programmers because it's a gigantic framework with an insane learning curve,
and if you haven't done much/any webdev before it's almost impossible to
learn.

Sure, you and i can pick it up in a weekend, but i don't think it's even in
the realm of decent for beginning programmers.

~~~
code_duck

        0> Set up the DB  
        1> Describe a model    
        2> Write a view function  
        3> Write a template  
        4> Set up a URL conf
    

How is this more difficult than or different to other web frameworks, and what
do you consider 'insane' about it?

~~~
mtogo
Your steps aren't too difficult provided the new programmer knows MVC (sorry,
Model-Template-View), regular expressions, ORM principles, basic database
design principles, understand how migrations work and how to use south,
django's template specifics, and is willing to wade through a maze of
documentation for hours on end to find the solution to simple problems.

I'm not noing to list alternatives because that starts flamewars, but there
are many smaller frameworks that don't have such a large learning curve.

I'm also not saying that Django is a bad framework-- i even launched my first
commercial web app with it-- just that it's not optimal for beginning
programmers.

~~~
code_duck
What framework does not require one to understand those things?

------
voidfiles
I think the biggest thing most people are missing is that django is an okay
base, but you shouldn't look just to the django community, you should look to
the python community. Django is only one aspect of a whole stack, and you
should be more worried about your language choice then your framework choice.

~~~
pinoceros
absolutely true.

------
maxklein
Let me tell you the truth, though this will not be popular: Django is not a
good framework. It's clumsy, inflexible and restrictive. The community is
pretty much dead.

If you want to work in ruby, go for ror. If you want to work in python, go for
a micro framework like Bottle.

I made the mistake of investing a lot of my time in Django. It was not worth
it in the end. All my Django projects ended up being a big mess, and I had to
undjango my way out of the various restrictions it placed on me.

And the community in general seems to agree - there is not much different in
the django ecosystem, comparing 2 years ago to now.

My advice, go for Ruby On Rails or Bottle. Leave Django alone.

~~~
ladyrassilon
As someone who's been using Django since the magic removal branch, its
documentation is top notch, not to mention the lack of magic makes it very
usable, supportable, and build-able on. I can say definitely what's going on
from the top layer to the bottom layer without any black box behaviour.

Rails is full of sloppy coding, lots of magic, coders who think that return is
an keyword, and bad practices. I have no problem with ruby as a language, even
if it takes flexibility a step too far, however the style of coders, and the
general "I did something clever and unreadable so I'm awesome" attitude seems
to permeate the ruby-verse. Also while many improvements have been made on the
ruby interpreters... the performance is STILL lagging behind Python, which as
a dynamic language with compiled backend elements, gives languages like Java a
run for their money.

Both systems are very powerful, Django has certain batteries included that I
find it strange that rails fails to do (namely a plugabble extensible flexible
user authentication system) and both have their adherents.

The writer of this original piece is clearly not very up on Django
development, the strong community apparently how to write well implemented MVC
code. Having spent years working with a variety of frameworks, I've yet to
find a place where Django stops you doing what you want (unless its a
fundamentally stupid idea).

~~~
gcampbell
Return is absolutely a keyword in Ruby: [http://www.ruby-
doc.org/docs/keywords/1.9/files/keywords_rb....](http://www.ruby-
doc.org/docs/keywords/1.9/files/keywords_rb.html#M000032)

~~~
ladyrassilon
Its a keyword, but its not needed (as its not needed in many modern languages)
but many rubyists I've worked with said that it was a nice feature that the
return keyword was unnecessary and did not use it.

~~~
masklinn
> but its not needed

Depends. It's needed for non-local returns (returning from within blocks), and
it's also useful for early returns within methods.

It's not needed for the final return of a method, or a normal exit from a
block (not a bad thing in my opinion, and Python's lambda do the same)

------
jph
Yes, pick up Ruby on Rails.

The RoR community is surely more vocal. Rails has been described as "an
opinionated framework" and this ripples through many of the Ruby communities
and projects.

Community thought leaders include people like Yehuda Katz, Jose Valim, Giles
Bowkett, Ryan Bates, Ryan Davis, Loren Segal, and Charles Nutter, and
companies like PeepCode, ThoughtBot, Intridea, EngineYard, and Pragmatic
Programmer. There are many more of course.

In the Ruby ecosystem you'll often find these opinions lead to "more than one
way to do it". Some examples that we're discussing at my company relate to
comparisons of RubyGems/SlimGems, MRI/JRuby, Rails/Sinatra, RSpec/minitest,
HTML/HAML, CSS/SASS, Capistrano/Chef, and many more choices.

I suggest you try RoR version 3.1 and you'll find many built-in pieces that
can help you, including jQuery, HAML, SASS, the new asset pipeline, and more.
You can use these or swap these out as you like. Heads up that some people
think these provide too much "magic" and are hard to learn all at once,
whereas other people think these are solid choices based on experience. Be
sure whatever books you read are for Rails 3, not Rails 2.

Feel free to message me if you'd like more info.

And a plug: I'm hiring Rails developers.

------
devonrt
I think one of the reasons that RoR might seem bigger is because RoR is a much
bigger part of the "Ruby experience" than Django is for Python. Rails had a
huge hand in making Ruby what it is today and I think you'd have a hard time
finding a Ruby dev that wasn't introduced through Rails.

This isn't true of Python, though. Most people are Python coders first, web
framework users second. Their level of experience with Python has a part in
dictating what they're looking for in a web framework and many experienced
Python devs are more attracted to small or micro-frameworks like Bottle,
Flask, web.py, etc. Django has never been the "one true web framework" for
Python the way Rails is for Ruby. Personally I have never touched Django, just
Flask and web.py.

Also, if you are going to base your framework usage on its popularity in
comparison to Rails you're going to have a tough time ever being satisfied.
When has _any_ framework (web or otherwise) generated the same level of cult
following as Rails? The Rails community is an absolute outlier in the open
source software world (and I mean that in a positive way).

------
araneae
I went through this "ror vs. django" thing a few months ago, and ended up
picking up Django.

I got the Django book and liked it and I had no problems with my actual
project itself in terms of having enough "community."

However, now I'm in the "figuring out how to deploy it" stage and it's been a
real pain. My free webhost supports RoR and python, but doesn't have Django
installed, I don't want to spend the money on a VPS, and while there's been a
recent surge of beta Django hosts, none of them have worked out for me. (I.e.
I tried out gondor.io, it wouldn't deploy, I asked for help in the IRC
channel, someone said they'd "look into it" but never got back to me.) I'm
currently rewriting my models (db structure) for Google apps since it's
basically my last hope.

I really love Django, so it pains me to say this, but you might want to check
out RoR.

~~~
robbles
I think you'll find that any "free webhost" is going to give you a lot of
trouble if you want to deploy a project built on a modern web framework.

Rule of thumb: if it doesn't have SSH access, and it's not a Platform-as-a-
Service like Heroku or Gondor, you're probably not going to have much luck
deploying anything except PHP or static HTML.

Check out webfaction.com, it's great for beginners and does most of the
deployment for you.

~~~
araneae
My webhost has SSH access, it just doesn't give me root. It offers RoR through
CPanel, which I just assumed would work, but I haven't tried using it so I
don't really know.

But I take your point, a VPS is really the best thing. I just can't convince
my husband to let me spend money on it and I'm unemployed :P.

~~~
Aramgutang
If you have SSH access, and Python is installed on the system, you don't need
root to install Django. The best approach is via pip/virtualenv, but as a last
resort, you can just upload the django source folder in the same directory as
your manage.py, and it will work.

------
thingsilearned
I've met a few of the creators of both the Rails and Django frameworks and
noticed that their communities are very much a reflection of the creators.

DHH and crew tend to be very vocal and opinionated about their software.

The Django community (like the python community) tends to shun this type of
behavior and prefers to let the code speak for itself.

------
SoftwareMaven
I'm not sure I believe the RoR community is larger than the Django community.
I do believe it is more vociferous, though, which seems to be indicative of
the general difference in communities between Ruby and Python.

It really doesn't matter which you choose. You will hit points with either
where you are tearing your hair out trying to figure out how to do something.
You'll find good peopke to help you in both communities. Eventually, that
phase will pass and you will achieve Zen, until the next shiney framework
shows up. :)

Personally, I really like Python as a language, so that's my path to Zen.
Yours may be different.

------
petercooper
This is part of the reason that some people claim "the Ruby community" is full
of drama. In reality, it has no more drama than any other group of people. The
difference is, those people interact with each other and publish a lot, so any
disagreements are more visible.

Anyway, maybe one place to start is <http://djangoweek.ly/> \- not exactly a
community but it's a news service so you're likely to be led to interesting
places.

------
mbrubeck
Mozilla's web development team uses Django for most of their current and new
projects. If you come to #webdev on irc.mozilla.org they might be able to
point to some other resources and gathering places.

------
TheSmoke
there are totally unfair comments to django, django committers and the django
users. having used many tools such as grails, rails, django, pylons,
turbogears and pyramid for different size of projects and loving them all i
have a good amount of experience with these tools. whenever i needed a hand,
people in #django (in irc.freenode.net) or a djangonaut's blog post or answer
on stackoverflow or the django mailing list helped me out. same applies to
rails as well.

what you like with rails is its just being fancy and people acting like it's a
miracle. it's not. it's a a tool which helps you prototype your application
with scaffolding and some other nice things in a very small amount of time. so
is django. complex application means complex code. this is not a django thing.
it applies to every tool. do not let screencasts or posts hypnotize you as
those guys are working with rails for many years. you will not develop rails
apps like they do when you start over. your code will suck. you won't like
your own code as you learn ruby and rails in depth and sharpen your skills. oh
wait, that applies to python and django as well. :) it's not you though, we
all have been there.

one final note. django community does not need a reference book. because
django documentation is a reference manual that contains everything a django
developer needs. however a cookbook or application-type teaching book would be
nice.

------
hsparikh
I am newbie when it comes to development, and I had the same choice between
developing my product on RoR or Django. I chose Django, and between the
tutorial, docs, and the google mailing list, I think there is a pretty good
community out there.

A book would be nice, but there are some good apps on registraton, profile,
etc. available on GitHub or BitBucket out there. Granted, it might not be plug
and play like in the case of RoR, but I have found it to be alright so far.

------
aspir
I went through the very same experience you're going through now, and ended up
with Rails. The largest deciding factor was the size of the community in my
geographic area. Sure, there's always going to be a nontrivial online
community for any activity, and the online presence of Django is enough to
keep you going. But, you'll need to get some face-to-face interaction in there
-- at least I needed that when learning. Waiting for a message board post is
not the same as asking a few questions back and forth with a more experienced
developer.

My impression that I got from both communities is that while both are good at
fostering the growth of existing members (most programming communities do this
well). Django is really bad at "evangelism," via teaching non developers to
code via Python/Django or converting existing devs over to the framework. In
contrast, the Rails community is better than most for profit groups at this
(think about Microsoft's initiatives vs. something like Rails for Zombies).

For an example, compare the two homepages. The Rails page is much better at
actually conveying the it's information effectively than Django.

------
swiharta
There are in fact more books focused on Rails compared to Django, and this
logically reflects the inferior documentation of Rails compared to Django,
necessitating and creating a greater market for additional documentation. This
market doesn't exist so much for Django not because of the lack of interest in
learning Django, but because the documentation is so good. End of that story.

As for the greater perceived online presence of the Rails community, I think
this reflects two things:

1) Greater confusion among Rails users, who as a general group seem less
technically inclined "on the whole" (there are obviously a ton of brilliant
Rails developers as well). In general, Rails users want things to be pre-
configured for them, and therefore never really learn how things work under
the hood, and are thus ill-equipped to make simple changes to their own apps.

2) Greater Apple-like fanboy-ism among Rails users, which takes on a religious
fervor with people thinking they have met salvation, and it makes them feel
special. They love to evangalize about it, and this personality trait in part
the perceived greater popularity of Rails.

That said, both frameworks are obviously still very popular and effective at
building web applications. Try both and go with whichever one you like better,
and stop fretting about whether you've made the "right" decision.

------
philipkimmey
Frankly, the discussion below turns quickly into bickering, but in response to
your question, in my limited experience I think you've hit the nail on the
head in terms of the size of the community, though I think that has more to do
with the prominence of 37 signals etc and less to do with any technical
superiority.

I personally prefer Django for a number of reasons though I've also been
impressed by RoR in my dabbling. active record's migrations are nice, and the
ease with which rails let's you write dynamically changing forms and various
other niceness is really great.

Technical questions aside, I think RoR is the default web framework. At
general hacker type meet-ups like Startup Weekend, Rails is pretty much the
default framework to work in as more people are familiar with it.

Django is wonderfully well structured and literally just about anything can be
accomplished elegantly by subclassing this or that. As you said, the
difficulty comes in figuring out what and how to fill in those gaps, which
more often than not includes heavy use of grep and browsing around the Django
source.

I think you'll be fine with whichever you choose. Learning new languages and
frameworks is enjoyable, so try some rails and see how you like it. Smart
people and great projects have been done with both.

------
sghill
I have the same first two questions as you, so I'm glad you asked.

I can say a large part of me starting developing with Rails is the community.
Many, many publishers have books. When I was in school our library had more
material on Ruby/Rails than anything else in web dev. The online community is
also fantastic as you've noted. Example: someone has taken the time to make
ASCIIcasts out of Railscasts is incredible...and very helpful, as I'd often
rather read than watch.

------
rhizome31
Yes it's true that the Rails and Ruby community is very talkative and
innovative. I see a lot of projects being ported from Ruby to Python and not
so much the other way around.

As for getting work done, in my experience Rails and Django are equivalent.
The only thing against Rails is that it's slower, which can be a burden for
development.

------
izak30
<https://www.djangoproject.com/community/>

------
joshkelly
I'm in this same boat. I decided to go with Python vs Ruby due to what seemed
like a better language for Sys Admin scripting. I tried Django in the past and
quickly ran into issues after Django Book. I think I might give Bottle and
Flask a try and get my project live.

~~~
true_religion
What issues did you run into by the way?

------
msluyter
For a long time I debated which framework to pursue in my off time (work is
Java/struts blub programming). Python is the first and only programming
language that I truly fell in love with, so I've investigated Django and
rather like it. But I'm going to the Lone Star ruby conference next month, and
I'll be doing the 0 to Rails tutorial. I guess I'm still having a hard time
making up my mind. If exposure to live events is the deciding factor, then
ruby will win, because I don't see many nearby django events...

~~~
jdunck
In my opinion, the decision whether to use Rails vs. Django should largely be
based on which language you know/prefer and which culture you know/prefer. In
terms of capabilities, the distance between them is tiny.

Austin Python Web meetup: <http://django.meetup.com/cities/us/tx/austin/>

No?

------
Yxven
The strongest part about django has always been (imo) it's documentation. The
books that are out currently are simply not as good as the docs on the main
site. I suspect this is the main reason there are not new books. If no one is
buying django books, why write new ones?

The only dig I've read here that I agree with is that the plugins vary wildly
in quality and ease of use. I would suspect that's true of ror as well.
(Although, I think they have more to choose from, so there's probably more
diamonds in the rough)

------
ladyrassilon
The best book I've found for picking up rails was the latest edition of the
Agile Web Development book, which I actually own 3 different editions of it,
for differing versions of rails.

The lack of a Django book, probably has more to do with the fact of the
community being more focused on tutorials and Blogs rather than cashing in,
although there are a few django books out there. That said with the
documentation and tutorials out there I've never felt a great need for a
missing book.

~~~
ashconnor
There is a Django book.

------
rabc
Everyone talking about RoR and Django, but what about Scala? Does that a good
language with a good web framework?

I experienced RoR and trying Django now, and thinking Django is much easier
than RoR (Django configurations and conventions make much more sense for me),
but seeing the same problems everyone talking here.

Meanwhile, Scala coming and a lot of services written in RoR or Django are now
build in Scala (Twitter, Foursquare).

------
iqster
I have a lot of Python experience. However, I recently started to learn RoR.
Having a great time so far. I'd recommend making the investment.

------
jemeshsu
The size of community for Rails vs Django does not really matters in your
selection as both are big enough community. Choose base on your language
preference Ruby vs Python as this is where you will be coding in. Learn the
basic of both and decide then which is more suitable. I started with
Rails/Ruby and switch to Python.

------
barnaby
Enough of a community that Google chose to let Django on App Engine, not
Rails.

~~~
wahnfrieden
That has much more to do with Google and GAE already using Python and not
Ruby.

~~~
ashish2py
GAE also supports java webframeworks(Play-framework)

------
ibejoeb
#django irc.freenode.net

------
gloriajw
Want to propose a talk comparing Rails to Django at PyGotham?

<http://pygotham.org>

Based on your findings, form a panel and let the community decide.

------
anuj
Everyone is talking about Django.. What about Zope ? Except the learning curve
how does zope fare when compared to other frameworks ?

------
naithemilkman
rails and django are both extensions from the ruby and python community. if
you know your programming well, you'll be able to grok it in whatever
framework you choose. on that note, i'll bet my last penny python's community
is more vibrant than ruby. ruby is essentially dead without rails whereas
python thrives quite happily without django.

------
tommyg
Rails 3.0 was released almost 1 year ago on August 29th, 2010

Django 1.3 was released March 23rd, 2011, about 4 months ago.

~~~
ryanbigg
You are contrasting the versions incorrectly. Rails 3.0 may have been released
then but the latest version of it is Rails 3.0.9, which was released < 1 month
ago.

~~~
tommyg
I was just interested in these books about the "latest" version of rails. Are
they about Rails 3.0.9?

The Rails 3 Way - Published December 20, 2010, I doubt it includes the 3.0.9
release. Ruby on Rails 3 Tutorial - Published on December 26, 2010, also doubt
this book covers 3.0.9 Agile Web Development with Rails - March 31, 2011 -
don't know about this one.

------
matthodan
Who is the DHH of Django?

~~~
saurabh
We have GvR as a BDFL

------
sharjeel
I worked for four years in my startup in which we decided to go with django;
four years ago RoR (v1.2.3) and django(0.97) were almost at par. Even though
RoR had a slightly bigger community, django was clearly emerging as a leader.
Both were equally good but we went for django because it had better
performance, the explicit style seemed better than the inflexible conventions
approach, Python's one-clear-way-of-solving syntax seemed better suited for
teams and django's performance was certainly better than RoR.

Fast-forwarding four years and coming to 2011 with django 1.3 and Rails 3.0: I
happened to work in another team to build a product in RoR from scrach. I was
blown away by what Rails community has achieved while django is lagging behind
a lot and is least likely to catch up.

Here are a few highlights:

* As a generic statement, to achieve anything in RoR, usually there is one clear and simple way of doing it. On the other hand in django you can do in many ways and most of the programmers have their own preferable ways. This is ironic considering Python endorses the very same principle but Ruby has a flexible syntax to cater different styles.

* In RoR, you can find a gem for almost anything. Plugging gem in your app is usually extremely simple. On the other, comparatively there are very few usable django apps and integrating them in your django project usually turns out to be painful. * Resolving and maintaining gem dependencies across the team is a piece of cake with bundler. However when it comes to django, I couldn't find a good tool. There is virtualenv but I couldn't find it comparable with the power of bundler.

* Deployment is fun in Rails. In django, it was and still is painful.

* Rails has a far better support for Backend databases, including some support for NoSQL. On the other hand it was just a while back django started supporing multiple databases and that too is hackish approach.

* Databases migrations in Rails are straightforward and explicity. django doesn't have anything like that builtin but does have a django-evolution app which can be really troublesome in some cases.

* Django's restrictive templating system theoretically lets you not shoot yourself in the foot by imposing a new language. But having to learn a new language and dealing with its quirks sometimes makes you pull your hair. Rails approach of embedding Ruby in templates is much more powerful and practically useful. Sure you can override templating systems in both frameworks but defaults are the ones almost everyone uses.

* There are very few hosting services specifically tailored for django. But Rails community boasts services such as heroku which save you so much time that a django fanatic cannot understand.

* I haven't seen testing in Rails in depth but from the bird's eyeview, automated test-cases in Rails seem much more powerful than in django. I might be wrong here.

* Rails has much better documentation and a much stronger community. Compare the Rails and django books on Amazon, questions asked on SO, blogs, tweets, everywhere Rails now dominates.

Its just that I really love Python and prefer it much more over Ruby. Even
then I'll probably completely switch to Rails.

~~~
swiharta
You clearly haven't used Django in quite some time:

try "pip freeze > requirements.txt" and "pip install -r requirements.txt" for
managing dependencies between deployments

deployment is a matter of making a generic .wsgi file and pointing your server
to it, how is that hard?

the "south" app makes database migrations very easy, the fact that you didn't
know about this speaks volumes about your "experience"

Django is universally known to have better docs than Rails and virtually any
other web framework, see almost every comment on this page

Your other comments lack any objectivity and aren't even worth responding to.
I have nothing against Rails, but it's fanboys like you that give it a bad
name.

------
xmlninja
Have you been living under a rock or why don't you have some fun with nodejs?

Not saying django is dead here because its not (rails is though lol/Trollman
Troll). It has a very vibrant community, almost as nice as the nodejs com.

