

Ask HN: Want to move to San Francisco/Silicon Valley - how would I do it? - dutchbrit

A bit about myself, I'm a 21 year old British Citizen, currently living in The Netherlands. I currently work as a frontend Web Developer. I started building sites when I was 13, doing freelance jobs on the side. My passion keeps on growing and growing, and I've come to a stage where I want to begin my own startup. I have some ideas and am refining them now, but I think I'd prefer to work on them part-time whilst working.  As such, I probably initially am looking for work and later will look to pursue the startup<p>San Francisco would obviously be the ideal place for me to live if I want to begin my startup, and after my visit to San Francisco last year, I know that it's the right kind of place for me. I'd like to find a job over there for a while and work on my prototype on the side. I'm looking forward to hearing some advice on the best way to approach it - both in finding the suitable position as well as anyone who has navigated the visa minefield.  Thanks in advance.
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nlwhittemore
Hey - as a new SF transplant (from the East Coast), I definitely understand
your excitement about getting over there. The visa issue is really tough - one
I haven't had to confront with our company luckily.

In terms of work, my honest answer is be good. SF has a ton of developers
(front end, back end, and everything in between), but a huge portion of the
contract work force is just really, really bad.

If you are already a front end guy, I would think about how you could turn
yourself into the ultimate web experience designer with graphic design skills,
some background knowledge of user experience design, and the ability to hack
it together. There are few people that meet that bill anywhere, imo.

Another way to approach the visa question, depending on what else you have to
learn, is looking into a program at one of the university. California College
of the Arts is good, as is SF State, etc. Not sure what the financial
situation is like, but that might be a way to get your feet settled and build
even more skills in the meantime.

Once you get here, just network like crazy. Meeting people is the best way to
find great projects. Good luck!

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bufordtwain
Why do you think you need to move to SF? If it's a software startup couldn't
you just do that now (on the side) instead of moving?

~~~
inovica
I did not post the original, but I can see why. I've run a few businesses from
the UK and after visiting San Jose (and surrounding area) a great number of
times I can see the benefits of being in the area - from the general buzz,
through to the quality of people and support available

~~~
dutchbrit
Indeed, and networking with like-minded people.

~~~
bufordtwain
Yes but it's expensive to live there. See this article which was posted today
which may be as relevant to people starting software companies as it is to
writers: [http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/2010/02/fanmail-q-
advice...](http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/2010/02/fanmail-q-advice-for-
new-writers.html). You can have more time to start your company if you're
living cheaply (assuming you're not independently wealthy).

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neilk
As an H1-B holder in a similar situation, I advise you not to do this. It's
not as simple as Europe.

The USA makes it _very_ hard to get a visa. Also, even if you _do_ get a job,
working on your startup part-time is yet harder. Valley jobs typically take
much more than full-time hours and have little time off. Welcome to the USA.

Also, you haven't really defined what your goals are, other than just being in
SF and working on a prototype. Without the motivation of being in a program
like Y Combinator (not to mention all the introductions and networking they
can arrange) this doesn't sound like a great plan to me. If you want to sprint
for a prototype in some cheap apartment, you can do that anywhere.

I'd advise you to do this instead.

1) You seem to want to soak up SF & Valley culture, so do that first.

\- Get an internship at one of the better companies, ideally Google

\- Participate in one of Google's Summer of Code projects.

\- Visit SF on a tourist visa and just hang out. Meet a lot of people in the
hacker and startup scene.

Then:

2) Invigorated with all these new ideas and contacts, go home, get some
partners, and work on the prototype.

You may not appreciate how much simpler this is right now, but you will if you
try to live here for a short while. You can probably even live with your
parents, since you're so young. Or go to one of the cheaper European
countries, and hack by day, enjoy yourself by night. You're only young once so
why not do it in style? It's called the _World_ Wide Web for a reason.

3) _IF_ you think you're picking up momentum then try to find people who can
bring you into the USA again. Hopefully you will have met enough people in
stage 1 to do this.

P.S. There are a few tricks out there to establish an American startup with
non-American workers, but they are very high risk. Even if the INS buys it,
you will end up signing most of your rights over to someone American. For
obvious reasons I will not detail the legal tricks here, nor do I advise that
you get into this without advice from a lawyer. But just be aware that there
are possibilities _if_ you find someone here that you can really, really
trust.

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KirinDave
Your best bet is to get a job at big software company. I know that my
employer, Microsoft, has a legal department JUST for this problem. If you can
get an in with a company like Google, Microsoft, or etc., then you can get
into the area.

After that, I think you could find a native co-founder and then rig it so your
company employs you after you leave the big company. Set up the contract of
the company so that you cannot easily be terminated (otherwise you'd lose your
visa if there is a falling-out between you and your co-founder).

The process of becoming an American sucks right now; everyone who is not a
fear-mongering cave dweller knows this. It is especially irritating to us in
the Valley as we Just Don't Care about nationality and it can be so difficult
to find a qualified candidate. Good luck.

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jayliew
You cannot just "rig" it; if you've looked closely at the law (I have),
there's a whole checklist of items that prevents you from doing exactly just
that. For starters, the company that employs you has to show a track record of
profitability, and they need to show that they are paying you the market rate.
So you can't just start a company tomorrow that profits $1 a month and say
you're taking a $1 salary. If your title in the company is "web developer",
then the USCIS will find out what the average salary for a web dev is in SF
and say you need to pay that much. And you cannot say you're the company's
official janitor either - the job has to require at least a bachelor's degree.
You (the immigrant) definitely cannot start your own company and hire
yourself.

I'm an immigrant, I've been looking closely at these laws specifically for
startup founders, and what you said makes it a lot simple than it sounds - and
I can assure you that as of today, it is simply not. From the immigration
front there's no clear cut answers.

Advice on getting a job at a big company makes sense, because they can easily
pay you market rate, and show a track record of profitability.

The trouble is, also because of the laws - most big co's are incentivized to
hire locals, since it's so difficult to bring an immigrant to work in the US.
Also, immigrants who are already physically in the US (from another job, or
just fresh from a US university) has a better chance than an immigrant still
outside of the country (can you imagine the cost the company has to pay for
just a face-to-face interview?) But if you're a superstar and can convince
them to want you that much - then you're golden. As in, you can get in the US
and live and work here.

Then the next challenge begins, once you're already here. How do you start a
company? Because permission to work for someone else != permission to start a
company & work for yourself. But that's a whole different topic. One step at a
time.

The US has a different relationship with every country, you said you're
British. Look up to see if there is any special exceptions to the law (they
call them "treaties" between the two countries). I know Singapore, and Canada
has them, not sure about the UK. Perhaps, just do you homework - its all on
the Web.

But immigrant to immigrant I understand the draw to the valley - best of luck!

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maxklein
I'll wait till I make $2 million. I figure it will be an easier problem to
solve then.

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petercooper
Do you have a degree related to your profession? If so, find a job and get an
H-1B. Working "on the side" isn't technically legal but if you kept it low
level to start with, it might work out.

No degree? If so, I hope you're famous or rich and can get an O-1 (alien of
extraordinary ability) to work someplace else, E-2 (treaty investor into a
business - $100k bare minimum), or E-5B (wider scope of investments but at a
higher level - $500k/$1m).

If you have an existing company with staff and potential for expanding to the
US (guessing you don't!), the various L-* visas could also be useful.

Alternatively, and not entirely legal, go and study in the US (on an F-1 visa)
and then do your startup on the side. Be prepared to show that you have money
to support your living for this time though (or a source of external money).

Want a story to read about the E-2 process? Well, TechCrunch ran one a year
ago :-) [http://techcrunch.com/2008/05/02/coming-to-america-
getting-v...](http://techcrunch.com/2008/05/02/coming-to-america-getting-
visas-to-do-business-in-silicon-valley/)

~~~
dutchbrit
I don't have a degree related to Web Development, I started doing one while I
was working at a web development company. My knowledge was way higher than the
teachers (which was very disappointing!) so I left quickly.

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axod
Reconsider.

Why move when you can just startup something wherever you like?

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emmamc
I lived in New York for a year and it was really vibrant, I loved it. The only
problem I had was staying... I couldn't get the visa to stick. Good luck with
it

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inovica
Hi there

I nearly moved in 1999 but because of family I stayed in the UK. Even though
I've had success with what I've done, I think I would have found more if I'd
been in San Jose (where I'd planned to locate). If you have a business idea
maybe it would be enough to go for funding?

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keefe
dice.com and craigslist.org are two major job sources for SF bay area

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calicalicali
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_city>

Just come illegally. If you're white, you can probably get away with it for a
long while, especially if you freelance.

~~~
jayliew
Beware of the downsides: e.g. if you accrue many days of "illegal" status,
then let's say your mom is sick back in the UK, you go home to see her, and
now when you want to re-enter, immigration's going to say, "yeah - sorry, we
remember you." Who knows if that ban will ever be lifted, but would that be
worth it ?

Plus, there are other things to consider that would be difficult if you got
here illegally, e.g. driver's license, or renewing your passport at your own
embassy here in the US (they'll ask you for documentation)

That said, I'm sure it's worked out for some, but .. there are certainly risks
involved here that you need to be aware of.

