
Jeff Atwood On Parenthood - mootothemax
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2011/10/on-parenthood.html
======
brc
So true that you can't explain to people. You can try, but they will either
get the horror, or the bliss, but they'll never understand the strange and
gut-bustingly hard mix of the two, and how quickly it swings from one to the
other.

When they are defying you and just threw food over the kitchen, you'll get
grey hairs trying to fight the urge to blow your top. You'll say things you
promised yourself you would never say, because you're all out of ideas how to
handle a tiny creature who is intent on riling you, just to see what it's
like.

Then they'll get sick and you'll need to carry them to a doctor and entrust
them to medical staff you've never met, and you'll be so anxious you won't eat
or sleep.

Then the next day you'll have the most wonderful conversation where your
little charge asks you about the universe and you try and explain it to them,
not knowing where to start or how much understanding they really have.

One thing though, you'll learn compassion, forgiveness and patience like you
never thought possible.

~~~
bhrgunatha
One thing that surprised me immensely was the unexpected new perspective and
sense of respect for my own parents who had obviously been through it all
themselves.

~~~
aidos
I became a father 2 weeks ago and that's the thing that's struck me most.
We're only 2 weeks into it and we are giving everything we have night and day
to look after our daughter.

I don't recall ever hearing my parents using it against me or even mentioning
it. You suddenly realize that ever parent has just taken it on the chin and
selflessly put themselves second to their children.

As a father I completely understand why, as a child I just had no idea (until
now).

~~~
jm4
For me, the first 6-8 weeks were the most difficult. It starts getting easier
and you start getting better at it. Hang in there.

Your parents didn't mention it because they probably forgot how difficult that
part was. It passes quickly-- even though it may not seem like it at the
time-- and is mostly a blur when you look back. Take lots of pictures. Think
about keeping a journal.

~~~
crag
When they turn 13 you'll miss the "baby days". You'll look on those days
fondly, forgetting the stress, lack of sleep, etc. etc.

And when your son turns 18 and joins the Army. You'll wonder "where'd it all
go".

It all goes by in a blink. Enjoy the moments you have now. You'll miss then
soon enough.

------
TamDenholm
I'm not a parent and don't ever plan to be (not all plans go that way, so my
feelings might change on the matter) but I dont really get the whole
parenting/having kids thing. I really have no affection for children at all, I
dont find babies cute, i dont think kids are darling and i honestly think i'd
make an absolutely terrible father because i just dont think im wired that
way.

When Jeff talks about the 51% to the 49%, my personal opinion is why even
bother devoting 18+ years of effort for a measly 2% payoff? Because, if it WAS
worth it, wouldnt it be more than 2%?

I know this is perhaps a controversial opinion but please keep in mind I dont
advocate my own views for anyone else. I have friends who i wholeheartedly
believe weren't complete until they had kids, they're great parents and its
what makes them whole and i think thats brilliant. But kids are like bungee
jumping or religion, great for other people, but certainly not for me.

~~~
deanproxy
This is hilarious because this is exactly what both my wife and I think and we
would have said exactly the same thing as you just did.

I think some people are geared for it. Some people are not. Unfortunately, a
lot of people that aren't geared for it still end up having children anyway
and that becomes a huge mess, obviously.

I personally just don't like children. My family begs my wife and I to have
children and it annoys us to no extent. We understand the complexities of
having a child and we also understand how selfish we currently are. We would
probably end up despising the child if we ever had one.

We go through periods at times where we'll see a baby and be like "aw, how
cute", but that quickly changes when that child starts screaming and crying.

I can't even stand my nieces and nephews. I'm serious... I hate holidays
because I know I'll have to put up with them. This sounds harsh, sure... but
it's the truth. All I see out of them is a mass quantity of pure concentrated
annoyance. While I love them because they are family, I simply don't want to
be around them. If they ever needed help, I'd help them. If they ever needed a
home, I'd house them... I'd be there for them because they're family and
that's what family is there for... however, nobody said I had to like them!

Our views may change, obviously. As you get older, your priorities change and
we both may have different opinions. However, we're both in our mid thirties
and time is not on our side anymore and we still, to this day, feel that not
having children was a great idea.

As far as the 51/49 split, I'd personally say I feel that way with my dog. :)
However, when I want to get away from my dog, I crate her and go out to
dinner!

~~~
stat
"We understand the complexities of having a child and we also understand how
selfish we currently are." How is _not_ having a child selfish? I believe that
having children is way more selfish - there's already 6 billions mouths feed
and it's just adding another one.

~~~
deanproxy
I guess it's a matter of perception. If I'm going to have a child, I'm
basically giving up my lifestyle of travel, going out wherever/whenever I
want, spending money on what I want, eating out all the time, etc... In order
to provide for that child. This is selfish activity, as far as I'm concerned.
However, this is how my wife and I live at the moment. We don't want a child
ruining our fun! :)

------
bambax
> _49% incredible pain in the ass, 51% most sublime joy you've ever felt; that
> one percent makes all the difference._

Between 49 and 51 I count a difference of two percents?

> _Turns out, we're having two babies, due in mid-February 2012._

Aha. Let's talk again in a year or two, see who you'd throw under a bus.

I have three of those myself. I don't really subscribe to this whole "kids are
wonderful" cliché.

The first kid, it's wonderful, yes (but this has been said before, no?) The
other kids? Let's say I would agree more with Louis CK:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcnXpOygKGI>

Edit: downvoters should try to take care of my kids for a few days ;-)

~~~
smoyer
I have four kids and you'd have no problem watching them for a few days ...
they're obedient, yet questioning ... civil, yet fun-loving ... rambunctious
yet non-destructive.

Each of our kids was different and their personalities were by no means easy
to deal with, but molding them into who they should have been was our job as
their parents. A few days with your kids might be hard but once they
understood our boundaries I think you'd see a big difference in them. A few
months with your kids and I'll bet that we'd love them too.

~~~
Confusion
You assume, without evidence, that his kids are troublesome. You overlook that
they could be perfect angels, but that he still feels they are a larger
timesink than he would have liked. You validate the taboo: he dissents, so
your immediate kneejerk reaction is that he must be a bad parent with
unbehaving kids.

Here's a thought: one can be a model parent with model kids and still feel
that life without kids would have been better. You can even enjoy your life
and your kids while still feeling that way.

------
tomxtobin
As a childfree individual, I'm amused by the euphoric claims of parents
regarding the improved quality of their lives after having children. All the
science seems to point in the opposite direction:

[http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/why-does-
anyon...](http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/why-does-anyone-have-
children/)

I have to confess: from the outside looking in, parents resemble nothing so
much as cult victims gushing with conversion stories, complete with the
requisite, "It'll be so much better once you join!" It's even creepier than
that, though: cults may have leaders, but parents merely have genes flipping
switches. It's like we all have a brainwashing trigger implanted at birth,
waiting for the right circumstance to arise. This makes sense from an
evolutionary standpoint, though: if raising kids is extremely hard, something
would _have_ to get tweaked in the parents' minds to convince them to stick
around.

(Sometimes I wonder if some aspects of my genetic "kid trigger" were co-opted
by my cat. She reduces me to a babbling puddle of mush, and I'm enormously
protective of her. When she nearly died, I was reduced to tears, and I made
large sacrifices in time and money to save her life — and I'd cheerfully sell
a kidney if that's what it took to do so again. I plan on having her
cryogenically preserved if the worst happens someday. But throw myself under a
bus? No — although I'd throw _someone else_ under a bus for her.)

The hardest part of being childfree, I've found, is the realization that I
don't even live on the same planet as people who are, or will be, parents.
Each side looks crazy from the other. I've found it impossible to maintain a
close friendship with someone once they've had kids; schedules and priorities
diverge, and you become increasingly convinced that it's best to "stick to
your own kind" in the first place.

~~~
technomancy
> I'm amused by the euphoric claims of parents regarding the improved quality
> of their lives after having children.

I would go the other way and claim that the main benefit of raising a child is
that it's the most effective way to banish the seductive illusion that you
yourself are the most important thing in the universe.

~~~
tomxtobin
I'd argue that "the most important thing in the universe" is always an utterly
subjective feeling — an "illusion" — whether evoked by thoughts of oneself,
one's child, or anything else. The interesting lesson is that the object of
one's supreme devotion can change _at all_.

------
Tichy
Nicely written, although I have to say I don't find having a baby quite as
horrible as most other parents seem to find it. Exhausting at times, yes, but
nothing that gets me angry. As for my old life - maybe I wasn't partying hard
enough, because I don't really miss it that much.

OK, it is terrifying, but not because the kid is a terrorist. It is terrifying
because life suddenly has you by the guts. I guess I cared a little about my
own survival before, but now I really want to survive to be able to be there
for my kid, and I definitely want my kid to survive. Suddenly life has gained
a whole new dimension.

~~~
a5seo
> I don't find having a baby quite as horrible as most other parents seem to
> find it

It depends on your partner a lot. If your partner stays home, doesn't mind if
you travel 50% of the time, or allows you to arrive home late from work (after
6) every night, it's just a completely different ball game.

Having NOT lived in that situation and splitting child care responsibility
50-50, I've found the adage "you can't serve two masters," is true for me.
Either my business or my kids will suffer, even with 50-50.

So I've decided to allow the business to suffer, which means I don't create
situations where I'll let down 3rd parties (investors, customers) due to my
limited, erratic schedule (9a-5p and 8p-11p M-F, with random days off when day
care shuts down or early departures from the office for 3:30p day care
pickup).

But I only have the luxury of doing this because I sold my last company before
we had kids. My advice to entrepreneurs who plan to have kids: find a partner
who wants to take primary responsibility for child care (or hire an awesome
full-time nanny) so you can put as much as you need to into your business. OR
save enough money to be able to bootstrap and be available to your kids as
much as they need you.

~~~
Tichy
True enough, and I don't even have enough money yet to see all this with peace
of mind. But still, I can't help thinking: I am not Steve Jobs, so it is an
easy decision (what I do is not that earth shattering atm). My business is not
really that important, as long as I make enough to put food on the table.

Also grandparents help, money helps. If you have money, I suppose you could
also hire a babysitter.

------
pcote
"As an adult, you may think you've roughly mapped the continent of love and
relationships. You've loved your parents, a few of your friends, eventually a
significant other. You have some tentative cartography to work with from your
explorations. You form ideas about what love is, its borders and boundaries.
Then you have a child, look up to the sky, and suddenly understand that those
bright dots in the sky are whole other galaxies."

So Jeff is implying that those who choose to never have children will never
experience love, life, and the universe with the intensity and awe that
parents do. Somehow I'm "missing out". Sorry, but no.

~~~
pcote
A quick clarification in response to the downvoting. I have no disrespect for
Jeff or anyone else's choice to have kids. I have brothers and sisters who
went down that road and I'm happy for them.

But Jeff threw around condescending terms like "roughly mapped" and "tentative
cartography" to describe the worldview of people who don't have kids. That's
where I begged to differ.

All I'm saying is live your life and love it regardless of the path you go
down. But please don't talk down to people who choose not to follow you there.

------
chalst
There's not an original thought in Jeff's post and it's wonderful. Yes,
becoming a parent is exactly like that.

The birth of my first baby was pretty difficult for my wife, because of
injuries that happened because of incompetent midwives. My wife was very
crippled for the first week, our daughter had a hard start to life outside the
womb, and our family was almost completely useless so I had to do nearly
everything (the new midwife was great, though); oh, and just to make it
perfect, our dog sliced her paw deeply open on some glass four hours after we
returned from the hospital who had kicked out my injured wife at 5am because
they didn't have space. That week was the happiest of my life. If I ever am in
need of cheering up, I just need to think back to changing my first blood-
stained nappy.

As Jeff sort of said, becoming a parent is weird.

------
gldalmaso
I couldn't agree more with Jeff. I myself have said it on multiple ocasions,
having a kid is an emotional roller coster. It's amazing just how much you
fall in love with them and with life, but there also quite a few moments where
you just wanna disappear, leave it all behind and just... rest...

These times are a real challenge. You HAVE to deal with it, you just cannot
give up, and most of the time there isn't really anyone else that can cover
for you.

It is, by far, the most difficult thing I've ever done.

~~~
MikeMacMan
Parenthood is kind of a good rehearsal for founding a company: you won't sleep
much, you're very emotionally invested, you're on the hook for everything, and
boy is it hard without the right partner.

~~~
wanorris
Parenthood also makes founding a company 100 times harder, because you don't
have the luxury of throwing yourself into the company 100% and never looking
back. You have other responsibilities, and just letting them go to concentrate
on your business comes at the cost of not being there for these wonderful
little beings that you brought into the world.

And quitting your job to try a startup is fraught with a whole new peril --
you've got a family to feed!

I can imagine starting a part-time lifestyle business and taking it full-time
if it ever became successful enough, but never a full-on work-til-you-
can't-work-anymore startup. People who can do this after they have kids have
my utmost respect, but I genuinely don't know how they can do it.

------
BlazingFrog
Having kids will change you, no question. You would throw yourself under a bus
to save your kids, absolutely. But let's not forget that you are still an
individual with aspirations, ambitions, needs. Even after your child is born.
Some people are better than others at repressing that side of their identity,
instead evolving into a seemingly completely altruistic being. I couldn't.

The first year with my first born was hard but still magical (plus my wife
stayed home with him so it helped a lot). After that, time to be used for
myself was coming back, restful nights... Piece of cake.

Then I pushed for a second child (I always loathed the idea of raising an only
child for some reason). My wife had resumed working by then and it was
understood that she would go back after a couple of months of staying home
with the baby.

That's when it became insanely painful for me, trying to protect my newly
returned freedom (after my first born became more independent) while carrying
50% of the child rearing load with a newborn and a toddler.

I had to surrender (my self lost) for my own sanity and the well-being of my
children. The lesson I think I've learnt is that to be as "successful" as
possible at raising kids (whatever that means) you have to let go. A lot at
times. And hope for the best.

------
Kliment
Interesting how the core elements of this are similar to what people say about
psychedelics.

The whole theme of "People told me about it but I never really understood.
Then I tried." and "Feelings/emotions I'd never been able to imagine.", this
is exactly the kind of language people use when trying to explain to me why I
should try psychedelics. I haven't so far. I don't find it compelling. Wonder
if the chemical effects are similar though.

------
dgabriel
Congrats to Jeff! My firstborn is also Henry, and I have two year old twin
girls (Ada and Alice). The most interesting things about twins is how
incredibly different they are from each other. They were nurtured in the same
way, they share the same sets of genes, but they are wholly and fully their
own people from day 1. It is completely fascinating stuff.

~~~
kittxkat
Ada and Alice. Might I ask if the inspiration for those two names came from a
computer background? (Ada for the first programmer, and Alice for the first
Apple computer)

~~~
danellis
I bet when she gets to school Alice is going to be trying to pass secret notes
to Bob.

~~~
warren_s
Just as long as they stay away from that Eve kid, I hear she just wants to
know EVERYTHING!

------
giardini
"Having a child is a lot like running a marathon. An incredible challenge, but
a worthwhile and transformative experience."

Yes, except it never ends.

My elderly father's last conversations were filled with concerns about my
siblings. The more limited his mobility, the more exhausted he seemed, the
more he worried about how they would get along.

I tell people that there are switches in the brain - that when you first hold
your child (or any child should you hold it long enough), those switches turn
on. You have no control of the switches; they are genetically-controlled
hardware passed down from your parents. They have lain dormant for the several
decades of your life, awaiting this moment. Once they turn on, they will not
turn off.

The "switches" change your behavior radically: you will now react to the
child's cry to sooth it, you will protect the child at all costs, you will
grieve if it is harmed, etc.

Here's an example. One friend, an animal lover, upon entering her home with
her first newborn instinctively commanded "Get the animals outside, all of
them, outside, NOW!!" and to the bewilderment of all present, four previously
beloved and sheltered pets were cast out into the frozen dark backyard (we did
improvise shelter). To this day she remains amazed at what she did. The pets
were allowed indoors 18 months later.

When I was young I didn't understand this. I was taught that we were _tabulae
rasae_. Once I started to understand evolution, I saw that it only makes sense
from an evolutionary perspective: what could be more important to a gene than
producing another copy of related genes? What better way to do this than to
program the organism to protect its young at all costs?

But there's another level of understanding: standing there, holding a child as
the switches turn on. The experience itself.

~~~
run4yourlives
One of the beauties of the human experience is that we can overcome our
genetic "switches" to derive a more positive experience.

You're not a slave to your instincts unless you want to be.

~~~
giardini
" _One of the beauties of the human experience is that we can overcome our
genetic "switches" to derive a more positive experience.

You're not a slave to your instincts unless you want to be._"

That's old _tabula rasa_ thinking - it's false. Tell that to someone who has
fallen in love (another example of this type of genetically-programmed
behavior) or who has bonded normally with their child. They'll laugh you out
of the room. They would, in a heartbeat, throw you and themselves under a bus
to save their loved one(s). They _are_ slaves to their instincts.

Until the "switches" turn on, few (in modern society at least) realize/believe
the switches are there! It isn't easy to counteract something internal that
you have no belief in and have not experienced before. And it may be best (for
the other, certainly) not to try.

Some say, for example, that romantic love isn't real. But romantic love is
automatic and non-participatory: that is, your _conscious_ self doesn't do the
decision-making. And when you fall in love, every conscious system in your
brain will be suborned to justify your automatic genetically-programmed
behavior. So much for "free will!"

There are many instances where a parent does not bond with a child - they will
not be protective or nurturing. In extreme instances they may _kill_ the
child. But none of this is normal or common.

~~~
rsaarelm
_Tabula rasa_ says there are no real switches. Grandparent is saying that
there are, but we don't have to obey them unthinkingly.

Not all switches in the human brain are for stuff that's as nice as caring for
children or falling in love, so you might still want to think twice before
unquestioningly endorsing their superior wisdom over conscious thought.

~~~
giardini
\- " _Grandparent is saying that there are, but we don't have to obey them
unthinkingly._ "

How does he _know_ that we can override genetic behaviors? Sure, we can _try_
, but that doesn't mean that we _can_ override them.

\- " _you might still want to think twice before unquestioningly endorsing
their superior wisdom over conscious thought._ "

Don't put words in my mouth. I said: "it may be best (for the other,
certainly) not to try."

~~~
rsaarelm
_How does he know that we can override genetic behaviors? Sure, we can try,
but that doesn't mean that we can override them._

Given that you could view large parts of human culture as semi-successful
overrides of instinctual behaviors, I'm not entirely sure what kind of thing
your thinking of that might not be possible even in principle. Not feeling the
instinctual impulses to begin with as opposed to not acting upon them?

------
jgrahamc
"choosing to become a parent is the hardest thing I have ever done"

Actually, I'd imagine that that bit is pretty easy because the subsequent
parts (as described in the article) cannot be imagined before they happen.
Thus choosing to become a parent probably looks pretty easy.

~~~
beza1e1
From personal experience, saying "Let's have a baby!" was at least as
terrifying as "Will you marry me?".

~~~
rdtsc
I would say that having a kid to me seems like a lot bigger change than
getting married. But of course I am married already, so maybe that in
retrospect doesn't seem like such a big change...

------
jkeel
This was a great post. My wife and I have 4 kids and even though we are
technically "outnumbered" we try our best to get everyone in on the idea that
we are a team in this adventure of life. It's hard but it's wonderful too!

This was my favorite line: "Children give the first four years of your life
back to you."

It's true! They teach you in those 4 years so much about life and I think the
true loving nature of humans before we all get shaped through our
environments.

------
jroseattle
Way to go, Jeff! Congrats on twins!

I had twins born just over 10 years ago, and can clearly remember the doctor
pulling up the ultrasound and circling a little dot and calling it a baby.
There was another dot just like it on the other side of the screen, and I
thought "this guy has no idea what he's doing", because he was missing the
other dot.

Then he said, "here's another one". I said "another what?" He looked at me,
and calmly replied, "there are two babies in here. You're having twins."

At that point, everything changed. Nobody believes me, but I bet you do. And
everyone else on this thread who has kids gets it, too.

I had a boy and girl; the boy is named Henry. Small world, brother.

Keeping with the hacker theme, my kids are easily the best products I have
ever shipped. :-)

------
mynameishere
Little tip for any budding writers: Whenever you feel the urge to use the word
"enormity", use enormousness or magnitude instead. Especially if you're
talking about your children.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
This is particularly true if you're writing before the 18th century.

Anyone writing in the 21st century however could just ignore the original
meaning of the word and go with the meaning it's picked up over time - that is
implying a sense of scale without the negative implications. This definition
would be supported by a majority of modern dictionaries.

<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/enormity> <http://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/enormity> <http://www.thefreedictionary.com/enormity>

See also: <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enormity>

------
gbog
It is nice to see some positive words about having kids. But still what is so
hard? Spending less time online? I have the impression that raising kids is
much harder in the US.

~~~
CPlatypus
You have less free time, in smaller increments, and no longer under your
control. Let's say you have no children, and work a standard forty-hour week.
I know that's not common here, but bear with me. The thing is, that other 108
hours per week is yours, and you can arrange it as you like. You can choose to
work longer hours at a startup, or spend time on strenuous hobbies. You can
choose to stay up late and sleep in late. You can choose to work more one day
to guarantee yourself a large block of free time another day. Whatever you do,
it's a choice.

Now you have a kid. That 108 hours just turned into 80 or less - much less in
the early stages for just about any parent, still less for at least the next
decade even if you're a selfish parent. What's left is no longer movable from
earlier until later, or from one day or to the next, because your child's
schedule is not as flexible as an adult's. You practically never get to sleep
in past 8am. When you do it's because you owe your spouse a favor - and with
everything else in the paragraph it's a big one. It's impossible to do
anything requiring intense concentration, because your child is a high-
priority interrupt and that interrupt triggers frequently. My daughter (seven)
is far better than most at staying occupied by herself, and even she
interrupts me all the time. You know that look you give your coworkers while
they interrupt you just when you finally got into the coding groove? You can't
do that to your kid, so you don't even start anything that intense. You code
less, you read less, you exercise less, you game less, you get online less.
Your only real opportunity to have a significant block of free time is after
the kid's in bed. To take advantage of that you'll be dipping into that 56
hours per week of sleep time and using caffeine the next day to (sort of) make
up for it. By the way, I hear all of these factors are compounded when you
have more than one kid, and I just can't even imagine what it's like for
single parents.

I'm not complaining. There are other things that more than make up for the
loss of time and control over time, but it's still draining. Still, I just
have to laugh at the childless people who just assume all that time is
available and flexible, who don't realize that being able to ride their bikes
three hours a day or spontaneously head out for a three-day binge in Vegas is
a _luxury_. Enjoy it while you can. Enjoy it your whole life if that's your
choice. Just understand that every parent in the world is going to have a
different perspective on free time than you do. Even though the result is
worth it, losing two thirds of your usable free time is hard.

~~~
gbog
[edit: redoing my comment on desktop, was stuck with it on phone, sorry for
the mess]

When our kid was still sucking his mother's milk we went on 5 days trip in
Dali, Yunnan, rented a 4*4, went to cheap backpackers hotels, no problem at
all. The only diff was to wake up earlier than we would without him.

For the interruptions, why do you allow them? When my dad was working at home,
we wouldn't enter his place without a reason.

I think a big issue is about a new kind of culpabilization of the parents.
Mothers need to be perfect mothers. Fathers need to be perfect fathers. Kids
are supposed to be perfect kids. That's ok, but can be dangerous if taken to
the letter and too seriously.

~~~
CPlatypus
Different concerns apply to children of different ages or temperaments, and to
different situations. My seven-year-old daughter is actually better than most
at entertaining herself with books or puzzles etc. She also has a mother who
stays home. Thus, when I work from home, she's quite capable of leaving me
alone and knows to do so. During the evening or weekends, though, it's
perfectly reasonable for her to request my attention pretty often. My wife
deserves her breaks too, and there are no siblings. Someone who would
completely shut out a seven-year-old during those times, under those
circumstances, is IMO too selfish to be a decent parent - or for that matter
husband, colleague, ...

If your child is a different age, or has siblings, or is even more exceptional
in terms of self-entertainment, or if you're content to plop your kids in
front of a TV/computer for hours on end, or if you have other family/friends
willing to take your kids often, then maybe you're able to achieve longer
periods of concentration. Good for you. Please don't assume, though, that your
circumstances and thus your choices are applicable to others. Among the
hundreds of other parents I've talked to, this issue of limited and fragmented
free time is a _major_ challenge for every single one.

------
Yhippa
This has been one of the more interesting posts I've seen on HN in a while.
Imagine if you presented all this evidence to each parent before they decide
to have kids. I wonder if most people would still go through with it?

I'm glad my parents did! But the more I hear about parenting the more it seems
that you lose your life. I hope that one day my DNA forces me to override my
logic unit and find a nice lady to have kids with.

------
tbourdon
I just hope Jeff realizes that the amount of work per child is exponential not
linear. So having twins will be about four times the work of just one child.

Also, I'm sure Jeff has already done the math on this but at at roughly seven
diapers per day, 40 diapers per week, 2000 diapers per year, your average
child goes through about 5000 diapers. 5K down, 10K to go :)

~~~
jccodez
Regarding the amount of work per child being exponential, is this from your
personal experience? My experience is the opposite.

~~~
mjs00
His point on twins (triplets ..), where there are parallel simultaneous needs
is perhaps different than multiple children, where at some point older ones
'help' with younger ones.

------
marcamillion
OMG...I was just trying to explain to a friend why she should wait 3 - 5 years
before having kids, but I found it so hard to put into words.

That graph is SOOO true. Haven't even read the entire post yet, but after 2
kids (both under 4) that graph sums up the entire experience - from my
perspective anyway - more true than any words can.

------
rickdangerous1
The angle that you almost never see mentioned in discussions like this is
those 0.01 percent of scenarios where "both mother and baby are doing well"
isn't true. There are all kinds of risks, complications and gut wrenching,
soul searing, life destroying outcomes which you're up for when you play the
game of life.

------
smoyer
Congratulations Jeff! We were never concerned about being outnumbered as long
as we had a hand for each of them, so we had three and adopted a fourth. Now
that the oldest two are 20 and 18, I'm pretty convinced we've been outsmarted
... but that's a good thing ;)

------
Cherian_Abraham
Its funny that I was about to post this on Twitter here when I saw Jeff's
post:

Successes and Failures melt away in front of a two year old. Validations and
affirmations happen by way of a smile.

That being said, I cant wait to go home and wrap my hands around my two year
old son.

------
timjahn
I can't believe how accurately this post reflects my own thoughts on
parenthood. He just put into words so clearly exactly what I've been thinking
and how I've been feeling.

------
wgx
I whole heartedly agree. Our baby is 1 next week and it has been, without
doubt, the most amazing, terrifying, tiring and joyous year.

Can't wait to teach him to code.

~~~
wanorris
Just remember: you don't get to pick what fascinates your children. He may
love sitting by your side learning all about coding -- and he may get bored
and restless and want you to go outside and throw a ball around with him.

~~~
wgx
He can code a physics engine and throw a ball in that. </sarcasm>

------
EGreg
I've always admired Jeff Attwood's courageous honesty and insight. Gives me
hope for getting married :)

------
ojilles
Beautifully written!

------
indianburger
Jeff has done what women have tried for ages...made men open up emotionally

PS: for the 1% female population reading this...nevermind I don't think it is
even 1%...

------
gclaramunt
Having kids is the ultimate startup

------
micah63
Beautiful. I'd give this 400 points if I could.

------
WayneDB
I love children but I am looking forward to NEVER having them. My sister's got
a couple now and my cousin's boys are carrying on the family name for the
people in my family who care about that.

I think it's incredibly selfish to bring new kids into the world when there
are so many that nobody wants. I don't normally say that to people and I don't
really hold it against anyone (I do understand the motivations for having your
own children), but that's how I feel.

If really want to do something useful and not just serve your own desires, why
wouldn't you just adopt?

~~~
Jem
Having watched a friend do it a few times, I think only someone who has never
adopted would ask the question "why wouldn't you _just_ adopt?"

~~~
WayneDB
I am close to two sets of families who each adopted multiple kids. One family
adopted 2 kids from Russia and the other adopted 2 from China. The first
family also had multiple children biologically.

Honestly, the 4 adoptions seemed much easier to me than the biological process
which I've also seen many times. This probably sounds terrible, but you can
also return the adopted ones if there are any major problems (and I've seen
that happen too.)

~~~
Jem
"Honestly, the 4 adoptions seemed much easier to me than the biological
process which I've also seen many times."

I can't even begin to understand how that would be possible.

My friend who has adopted from overseas spent several years and thousands of
dollars (something like $45,000 if I recall correctly) making it happen.

I had sex a couple of months ago and now I'm 8 1/2 weeks pregnant.

Let's just say I know which route I found easier.

------
0ffworlder
So we have a 51/49% ratio for happiness and crazy in relation to child
rearing. And this is for a middle to upper class person who wanted kids in the
first place. Kids are crazy, generally make the gf/wife look 15y older after
they have had em, and allow said gf/wife to have ultimate control (child
support and divorce) which essentially robs a man of his independance and
ability to have fun. There is a damn good reason that there are family
sections of restraunts... Also, consider bars/leaving bong & vape on the
coffee table/leaving porn and condoms out/leaving booze out/leaving good food
out (kids are less behaved than kitties in most ways)/leaving expensive tech
out (kiddies going to puke on that MBP)....ad nauseum. There is really no
point to having kids, although social convention aka parents in some cultures
sometimes advocates them, but it is a matter of rational self interest to
disagree with this notion. 99% chance your kids will put you in a rest home,
rather than take care of you, thats how the cookie crumbles.

~~~
shinratdr
Right, but people who don't hate women, children, and possibly themselves,
don't really have that reaction right off the bat.

You are right in the sense that you should not have children, less because
this is a reasonable and healthy outlook on life and more because if you
believe this bullshit and live your life by it, you aren't fit to raise kids
period.

------
bodegajed
This is not Parenting Magazine. I am a parent, but I came here to read about
startups, technology and etc.. What happened?

~~~
artmageddon
There are people who want to have startups, deal with technology, AND be
parents, too. There's no reason that they must be mutually exclusive. Besides,
the number of articles regarding parenting on this site is a metaphorical drop
in the ocean of tech articles.

~~~
mdda
I think it's wholly appropriate : To put up a warning flag around some of the
major non-tech life events that the site's main demographic will be making
decisions about.

