
US companies giving in to pressure from China - maxwell
https://www.abacusnews.com/big-guns/seven-times-us-companies-gave-pressure-china/article/2157856
======
deeg
I look at it this way: change is not going to be forced on the Chinese
government by US corporations. That can only come from the Chinese population
(with possibly a small assist from foreign governments). So what's the best
way to help their citizens with changing the government?

I believe the best way is to make them prosperous and informed; people who are
hungry or worried about their job are less likely to question the political
status quo. Are US corporations helping with either of those? Not much with
the latter but I believe more trade helps the former, as long as it also
doesn't make it easier for the government to oppress the Chinese population.

Is there much of a difference between US corporations doing business in China
and the rest of us buying inexpensive goods from Chinese companies?

~~~
mehblahwhatevs
This thinking is common that more middle-upper class people won't put up with
a dictatorial regime.

But isn't Singapore kind of a counter to that?

~~~
repsilat
Singaporeans at least have the right to leave. Chinese people aren't even free
to migrate internally.

Singaporean internet access is significantly freer than Chinese. Singapore has
freer markets, more rule of law.

They don't have a real democracy, and there are restrictions on speech, but
it's absolutely crazy to equate it with China. If China turns into Singapore
as it gets richer it'll be a humanitarian miracle.

Unfortunately I share your skepticism. Not because of Singapore as a
counterexample, though, but because of China-to-date. They haven't been
liberalising, they have been getting less free, more nationalistic and so on.
The Party has increased its control on every part of life and all levers of
government. I can't see why that trend should reverse.

~~~
ngcc_hk
Yes and even if go you are chinese first. Kidnapping foreign national in a
foreign land (Thailand not just 1c2s Hk) is done.

You are chinese first even if you have other passport ...

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georgeburdell
Honestly, I don’t find the censorship tools or local-hosting of data to be too
offensive; if the big Cloud players don’t do it, another will, with the net
effect being the same. What bothers me the most is the airlines listing Taiwan
as part of China. This goes against policy of the vast majority of the world,
including the U.S. It’s one of many reasons (the others are not germane to the
article so I will not list them here) why I refuse to buy new Chinese
products. It has been quite difficult, but between second hand stores and a
relatively robust domestic manufacturing base, I’ve made it work.

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qiqing
An excerpt, which sounds shockingly similar to GDPR compliance, listed as an
example:

"APPLE, AGAIN

That wasn’t the only issue Apple faced in the country. Earlier this year,
Apple moved Chinese iCloud data to a state-run company after new laws were
enacted requiring foreign companies to store data locally."

~~~
tonyztan
The difference is that in the case of China (and Russia), requiring local data
storage is intended to enable government oppression. EU countries have much
better human rights records than China and Russia do.

~~~
qiqing
Do you believe it is morally wrong for China and Russia to pass their own
GDPR-esque legislation? And for corporations to comply with said legislation?

~~~
d0100
Motive and outcome are valid measures for deciding if something is moral

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pnw_hazor
Boeing and other traditional high-skill/tech manufacturers have been giving
away their to China technology for years.

CEOs/Boards/State don't care though, its all about next quarter's numbers.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Boeing doesn’t sell tech to China. They sell them planes, spare parts, they
even put a finishing center in China, but no IP transfer.

McDonal Douglas did sell MD80 machining tools to China, which is what the 909
is based on. However, this is only for the body, the other stuff (avionics,
jet engines) are being imported.

~~~
pnw_hazor
"Over the decades, Boeing and other American companies, including General
Electric, Honeywell and Rockwell Collins, have helped China to build the broad
foundation necessary for an aerospace industry. That same Chinese industry is
now getting close to producing its own commercial jets that could one day take
much of the profitable Chinese market back from Boeing and rival Airbus."

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/09/23/china...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/09/23/china-
offers-huge-rewards-for-u-s-companies-like-boeing-but-it-could-also-take-away-
their-business/?utm_term=.742f49f693c0)

------
mobmobmob
These US corporate elites are selling out US and the rest of the democratic
free world in order to meet shareholder's expectations (and of course,
MONEY!). And giving into a dictatorship and giving that dictatorship jobs,
money, capital, knowledge, and power. That dictatorship now has imprisoned
close to 1 million people in Xinjiang.

Shame on you, Sundar Pichai. At least when Google was lead by Erich Schmidt,
Google pulled out of China, and didn't bend to the whims of Chinese
government.

Shame on you, Tim Cook. Apple has 4.8 million jobs in China, more than double
the jobs in US. [https://247wallst.com/jobs/2017/03/17/apple-
supports-4-8-mil...](https://247wallst.com/jobs/2017/03/17/apple-
supports-4-8-million-jobs-in-china-more-than-double-us-total/) . Shame on you
for not bringing jobs back when news broke out that Foxconn has created a
slave labor like working condition.

Shame on you, Mark Zuckerberg, for continuing to appease the dictator in
China, so that Facebook may gain a foothold there.

Shame on you, Satya Nadella, for continuing to supply censored search results
in Bing. and for not taking a stand against censorship. But I guess the
microsoft borgship has a lot in common with China.

Shame on you, Jeff Bezos. You become the richest man on earth, by allowing
pirated, stolen, IP infriged goods from China to be sold on your platform
without care, destroying small US businesses. You also partnered with Foxconn
for Amazon Echo, tablet, and other hardwares. Amazon is a showcase for trade
imbalance. disgusting.

~~~
Leary
The US was not engaged with China prior to 1971, how did that work out for the
United States and for China? Over the long-term, engagement with China has led
to more personal freedom for the Chinese.

Trade with China has helped lift hundreds of millions of people out of
poverty, while helping with the prosperity of the United States. True the
corporations are reaping most of the benefits, but that's natural under a free
market. We need reforms here in America to broaden the benefits of trade to
all workers. Outsourcing to Asian countries existed prior to China's rise in
the supply chain. Most of the stuff that is "Made in China" have major
components that come from America's allies such as Japan, Korea, and Taiwan.

Google is in a position to offer a superior search product to China. We should
see this as an opportunity to advance freedom.

~~~
maxwell
Are you seriously suggesting that a censored search engine is "an opportunity
to advance freedom"?

~~~
Leary
Yes. The choice before Google is whether to enter the Chinese market. Staying
out of China may make some people feel morally satisfied, but will not give
Chinese people more information. Rather Google should be using its influence
to challenge censorship from the inside after it reenters the Chinese market.

~~~
394549
> Yes. The choice before Google is whether to enter the Chinese market.
> Staying out of China may make some people feel morally satisfied, but will
> not give Chinese people more information.

Entering the Chinese market also lends prestige to the censoring regime (e.g.
"all the companies of the world submit to our demands"), and also makes those
demands seem more reasonable.

> Rather Google should be using its influence to challenge censorship from the
> inside after it reenters the Chinese market.

The CCP doesn't care at all about Google's challenges to it. Either Google
complies totally, or it's out. The CCP doesn't need Google, and they probably
would rather people use Baidu anyway.

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Analemma_
It's not just companies, it's US people too. The original HN thread on this
subject
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17660872](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17660872))
had a truly depressing percentage of comments saying "No big deal" using some
combination of whataboutism, false equivalence and simple fatalism. I seem to
remember that when Google first pulled out of China the reaction among HN
types was much more positive; what has happened to our morals since then?

~~~
Afforess
Uh, morals? What does ethics have to do with Google operating their search
business in China?

I'm confused why I am supposed to be outraged. I don't have any particularly
strong feelings about censorship in foreign countries - how does what the
Chinese government do affect American speech? I guess censorship in general is
_bad_, but it's purely an internal, domestic matter. The Chinese aren't
scrubbing American textbooks of the historical record. Really, I think I've
only noticed China's influence in cinema; I see more Asian lead roles in
Hollywood films, but this seems more a corrective change than bad thing.

I'm not seeing how what happens to internet search in China affects Americans.
Nor what ethical concerns there are.

~~~
Kalium
I believe the expected reaction is the same amount of moral outrage that would
accompany the American government treating the American public the same way.

