

They Call Me Doctor Berry - johnny99
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/02/opinion/sunday/they-call-me-doctor-berry.html

======
Chevalier
...for god's sake. I'm one of the few non-Asian minorities on HN, so maybe a
Mexican can be honest where whites may be forced to be sensitive.

\- - - - -

(1) "But when I introduce myself in the classroom, I’m Dr. Berry. And I insist
on being Dr. Berry."

I take issue with insistence on the "doctor" title when applied to non-medical
fields. This reluctance is based on the deluge of worthless doctorates that
increasingly occupy my Facebook feed as I age.

While her field of electrical engineering is one for which I have a
superstitious dread and respect, since I struggled with elementary calculus
and depend on tip calculators at restaurants -- the fact is that it IS really
obnoxious to insist on the title when you're not a medical doctor.

I have a juris doctor, making me as much of a doctor as she is. Any lawyer who
insisted on the title would be laughed out of the profession, and rightfully
so. Frankly, any industry where non-medical doctorates are not routinely
ashamed of pretentious titles is probably not a very rigorous or worthwhile
field. While electrical engineering is certainly not either of those, she
admits that most of her colleagues do not insist on being called doctors. Is
it so offensive when her students conform to industry standards of etiquette?

\- - - - -

(2) "Having worked with thousands of students, I know for a fact that for many
— though by no means all, or even most — there is already a presumption that
I, as a female and African-American, am less qualified than my white male
colleagues, or at the very least that I was hired in order to meet a double
minority quota. And I get it — anti-affirmative-action ideologues have managed
to not only demolish the legitimacy of that policy, but tar the reputation of
anyone who might have benefited from it (even if, like me, they did not)."

Unless she did not mark that she was black on her application, yes, she almost
certainly did benefit from affirmative action and racial quotas. As did I.

Like her, I competed for seats against a pool of minority candidates with far
lower scores than the white or Asian pools. (Asians require ridiculously high
scores for competitive opportunities at the same schools.) The simple fact is
that we ARE less qualified for our opportunities than our white and Asian
counterparts. This doesn't mean we can't outperform the competition, but we
definitely got a boost in securing our positions.

\- - - - -

(3) "How do I know? Sometimes it’s just a sense, a feeling I get from people’s
tone of voice. But some students will automatically call me Ms., while
naturally referring to my male counterparts as Doctor or Professor. I’m not
alone: When I meet fellow female engineering professors at conferences, this
sort of treatment is always a topic of conversation."

Not that her vague feeling of offense isn't valid or anything, but this
doesn't really seem worthy of a New York Times article.

Her most concrete examples are where a student "offered tips on how I could
improve [my lecture]," and where others had trouble understanding her. Maybe
she's not the most talented of lecturers?

\- - - - -

(4) "So what can I do? I already have to run faster and jump higher just to
gain that minimal level of respect that my colleagues are graciously,
automatically afforded. But I can also insist that my students interact with
me in a professional manner, even if it’s not something they’re accustomed to
in other classes."

Again, she almost certainly has not had to run faster or jump higher than her
colleagues. The dearth of women (and especially black women) in engineering
pits her against a much less competitive pool of candidates to fill minimally
acceptable quotas. By her own numbers, there are only 140 black women working
as engineering professors "out of some 24,640 across the entire field (not
including computer engineering)." It takes serious balls to declare this void
the fault of a racist engineering conspiracy rather than the simple failure of
black women to compete in rigorous fields.

It's certainly possible that she has outperformed her Asian male counterparts,
but I would like to see her list such accomplishments as evidence that she
did, indeed, run faster and jump higher.

\- - - - -

(5) "I decided to become an engineering professor 20 years ago while sitting
in class and realizing that I had never had a professor who looked like me,
acted like me or even seemed interested in me. I was typically one of only two
or three female students, and one of only one or two African-American
students. I wanted to change the face of engineering by showing that the
profession could be cool, interesting, exciting, engaging and, most important,
diverse. In that way, insisting that students use my title isn’t just about me
— it’s about broadcasting, to any female and black students who might hear it,
that I am black, a woman, and an engineer, and that they can be the same."

This is where I lose the thread. It is not an accomplishment to be black. I am
not a role model because I am Mexican. If I communicate without clarity, my
audience is not racist. If there are relatively few competitive Mexicans in my
field, that signals a severe problem with Mexican culture and families -- not
with the institutions that hire me, particularly when they go out of their way
to promote less-qualified minorities!

It's great that she wants to be a role model. So do I. But aside from
insisting on a pretentious title, what accomplishments has she listed that
kids might look up to? Literally the only thing we know about her in this
article is that her students have trouble following her lectures. Also, she's
a black woman. Does that a role model make?

We as minorities should not be judged by radically lowered expectations
compared to our peers. Can you imagine an Asian man publishing this article
and expecting sympathy?

~~~
justin66
> the fact is that it IS really obnoxious to insist on the title when you're
> not a medical doctor.

She's talking about the classroom. Informality between student and teacher in
the college classroom is as nauseatingly fake as can be. If her honest
acknowledgement of the power relationship between teacher and student errs a
little on the side of formality, more power to her.

> I have a juris doctor, making me as much of a doctor as she is. Any lawyer
> who insisted on the title would be laughed out of the profession, and
> rightfully so.

It would be more apropos to compare how people _outside_ the profession would
feel toward you. Trust me, we'd all hate lawyers exactly as much as we
currently do if they insisted on the "Dr." title. The jokes might be a little
different...

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I have been referred to as Dr before, and it is quite weird, especially since
I do not have a teaching position. Some places (e.g. Hong Kong) are just more
formal than others I guess.

I would find it a bit weird if a professor in college insisted on being called
by a title, correct or not, especially in the US. If you want to be called
"Dr." just give a bunch of strong hints (using that title on your syllabus,
and in class related communications); the savvy students will pick up quickly
and the less savvy students will take leads from the more savvy ones (note: no
one will use your first name if they don't know it, and even if they do, they
would probably not in a professional context). Asking that the title be used
explicitly just smells like insecurity, and wouldn't reflect well. Although
when I was in middle school in the deep south, my teachers had to tell me to
use "Sir" rather than the "Mister" I was used to (being a yankee), so what do
I know.

~~~
justin66
I should pay more attention but I believe I've always used "doctor" when
dealing with real professors (adjuncts might get a "professor," or "hey
asshole") and I tend to think it's the norm in the midwestern schools I
attended. I'm not sure about that, but I don't think I came up with the habit
all on my own.

The exception was in theater classes, and perhaps in a couple of other
instances of long acquaintance. It just seems reasonable to default to the
safer, more formal option. I believe in some places (Europe?) the preferred
title would be "professor" instead of "doctor," and I agree that that is more
conceptually reasonable outside of medicine.

> Asking that the title be used explicitly just smells like insecurity, and
> wouldn't reflect well.

The professor in question is teaching electrical engineering students. If
they're anything like the EE students I know, this is almost certainly not the
only time during class someone will have to politely but firmly remind these
students to color inside societal lines. :)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Given an excessive amount of formality that I was unsure of, I would just clam
up and not address the teacher at all. In fact, professors would often use
informality as a way to encourage students to actually interact with them, but
if you want distance between you and your students, formalities are a good way
to achieve that.

I am glad computer science is very informal compared to other disciplines,
otherwise I would totally lose it at conferences where most everyone holds a
PhD (and often a professorship). The use of titles is very rare in our
discipline.

~~~
justin66
> In fact, professors would often use informality as a way to encourage
> students to actually interact with them, but if you want distance between
> you and your students, formalities are a good way to achieve that.

That's an interesting perspective. It's not universally true. I'm personally
bothered by the fakeness of a "hey, just call me Ed" type of introduction from
a professor, someone who has a massive amount of power over my future and who
is not my friend, and it's going to create a distance and mistrust until I get
to know them. On the other hand, it's never been a big issue either way. It's
not hard to adapt to local norms, and the macro issues of education are going
to dwarf little things like titles soon enough. (I'm currently a CS student,
but I'm a comparatively old one :) )

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Most academic computer scientists are hackers at heart; they are quite genuine
in their informality.

~~~
justin66
In my view - and I am not positioning this as some sort of universal truth or
trying to persuade you of anything at all - they might be genuine in their
informality, but that's not where the "fakeness" I mentioned above is coming
from.

The relationship between teacher and student is a fundamentally formal
relationship of trust with (one hopes) clearly defined responsibilities,
authority, and so on. It's fake to pretend that the power differential between
teacher and student does not exist. I don't feel like a professor who is
overly informal right off the bat is honoring the relationship. (but they are
sometimes a lot of fun at parties...)

I've never been uncomfortable with informality with a teacher once genuine
friendship develops. That's different.

------
jawns
On top of all of the things Dr. Berry mentions in this op-ed, there's the
additional indignity of being second-guessed when you bring up all of the
other indignities. "Oh, she's just being overly sensitive." Or, "Oh, she's
attributing to discrimination things that are mere happenstance."

So not only do women and racial minorities often need to "run faster and jump
higher" to demonstrate that their credentials are legitimate, but they even
need exert additional effort to demonstrate that their _complaints_ are
legitimate.

(Speaking of exerting additional effort ... I'm reminded of an essay[1] by
Tressie McMillan Cottom that argues that the additional effort that blacks
have to expend _simply to convince other people that they're not a threat_
takes a real toll. Cottom describes it as a sort of "constant background
processing that stereotyped people must perform.")

[1]
[http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2013/0...](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2013/09/jonathan_ferrell_shooting_death_the_perils_of_stereotype_threat.html)

~~~
cbd1984
Right. All the same things happen to men when they talk about being sexually
harassed, abused, assaulted, and raped, especially by women, even to the point
of "rape" being officially defined as something that only men can do.

~~~
cbd1984
And when anyone talks about it, they get rather aggressively ignored.

This proves my case rather nicely.

------
idle_processor
> "I once had a student who would review notes with me that he had taken on my
> lecture, then offer tips on how I could improve. It seems he thought he was
> doing me a favor, despite the fact that I had been teaching for six years by
> then. I doubt that this is an experience that many of my male colleagues
> have ever had to endure."

This passage makes me deeply uncomfortable.

It sounds like that student was extremely engaged, hungry for knowledge,
verification, and possibly validation. He may also have been trying to make
the world a better place. That disappeared through a lens of race, gender, and
social role issues.

Something built a wall between her and her students. That's crushingly sad.

------
jfc
Sounds like status incongruence: where social status characteristics (in this
case black, female) appear incongruent with a person's role (professor of
engineering). This is not her problem, it is the students' issue.

Basically, for these students (and probably some faculty members), her role
has upset the social order to which they've become accustomed. Someone they
would otherwise view as inferior to themselves (a black female) is in a
superior position to them. It is uncomfortable for them.

This is probably part of why that one student wants to give her instructions
on how to improve--my guess is that it has less to do with the quality of her
lectures. Rather, he wants to their roles in the classroom to match his notion
of their relative social power--with him in the superior position.

This happens quite a bit with black professionals, as well as members of other
ethnic minorities. I do some work in this area and it comes up often in
professional environs.

