
Logojoy: AI-powered logo creator - csallen
https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/logojoy-1
======
mikejarema
I'm curious about how the $15k/mo figure is computed.

The story reads as though Logojoy more or less launched on Producthunt, which
was 7 days ago. And all posts on the blog are dated Nov 15th. Finally the
domain itself seems to have been listed on HugeDomains as of Oct 8th [1].

Now maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like the revenue figure is
extrapolated from a small window which includes a wave of initial traffic from
PH.

I'm hoping that the revenue figure is an actual ongoing sustained amount for
Dawson's sake (as it is great looking & functioning product, solves a need
that I've faced, and for full disclosure I've been putting together something
along these lines on the backburner for awhile), but I can't help but feel
this is a bit sensationalized based on what I'm seeing here.

[1]
[https://web.archive.org/web/20161008092541/http://logojoy.co...](https://web.archive.org/web/20161008092541/http://logojoy.com/)

~~~
dang
That does seem dodgy, so we took the 15k/month bit out of the title. I guess
we'll leave "AI-powered" so as not to leave it completely naked. Or should it
just say "Logo Creator"?

I noticed that
[https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=indiehackers.com](https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=indiehackers.com)
constantly uses this trick of revenue numbers in titles. That's annoying
clickbait in an HN context, but on the other hand, we need more good stories
about startups, entrepreneurs, and projects, and dodgy stories are the price
one pays for good ones. So I think the answer here is continued community
vigilance.

Usually we'd see a point like this before 11 hours had gone by, but clearly
not always, so everybody: if you notice something misleading on HN, especially
if it doesn't get fixed right away, please alert us at hn@ycombinator.com. We
can't read all the comments but we do read and reply to emails.

~~~
csallen
This was my fault. I tell companies not to submit for an interview unless
they're at least a few months old, otherwise they won't have much to say.
Because of that + Dawson's reported $15k/mo figure + the fact that Logojoy's
story is inherently interesting, I blindly assumed the business was started
earlier in the year than it was.

Go figure that the interview in which this happens is also the one that gets
to the top of HN for the longest time. In the future, I'll do more to verify
the launch dates so I don't end up with another interview where the average
revenue is such an extrapolation.

As for including revenue numbers in titles, I agree it is a bit clickbaity (or
at least very enticing). But at the same time the entire point of these
interviews is transparency, and highlighting the revenue numbers adds crucial
context. I'm happy not to include revenue numbers in titles, though, if HNers
or mods don't want to see those.

~~~
benzor
I can't speak for the mods, but I for one am in favour of highlighting the
revenue numbers, _provided they 're accurate._

And on a meta-point, I appreciate the effort, honesty and transparency you put
into IndieHackers, it's a great resource for me.

~~~
saycheese
It's little more complex than just "highlighting the numbers"; in my opinion,
there really needs to be a definition of what is being counted and how that's
universal within Indie Hackers presentation of startups.

For example, three identical startups using different accounting methods (cash
vs accrual), time periods, etc. would have at face value potential vastly
different numbers, though the reality is they are identical in every way.

------
dperfect
> I've been a designer for 12 years or so... I would get frustrated designing
> logos for small businesses because (a) it was so time-consuming to create 30
> mockups, (b) it would take weeks to do those small back-and-forths, and (c)
> the logo would end up being so simple that I felt like that entire process
> was a waste... As soon as I had the idea ... I started working on it.

I think this is my favorite part of the story. If you've been a designer (or
any profession) for over a decade, even with frequent frustrations, it takes a
certain kind of humility and introspection to realize that maybe it's not just
about your customers being "broken" (by choosing the designs that take the
least effort) or needing to find more sophisticated customers who value your
talents.

Sometimes (ok, usually) it makes more sense to build what people really _want_
rather than giving them what we think they _should_ want. As a developer and
entrepreneur, I have to be reminded of that fairly often.

~~~
zekevermillion
This tool is pretty good! (This from an inexpert small business person, with
no design sense -- but still, that describes a lot of potential users.)

I've been on the other side of the annoying design client experience, playing
the role of annoying client. My old law partners and I asked a design firm to
do an identity for us, some 7 years ago now. They spent a LOT of time with us,
presented numerous concepts, and eventually the only logo we could agree on
was a blue circle with our firm name inside of it. Actually it was a pretty
good logo, if I do say so myself! But I could tell it was painful for the
designers to hold our hands through this process.

The chair of the firm where I started my career liked to talk about the
"$300,000 period". The firm had a slogan, something like "We're there for our
clients." (minor details changed to protect the guilty) As part of a firm-wide
rebranding, they hired an agency to help them update their identity including
this slogan. The result was to put a period in the middle, so it became
something like "We're there. For our clients." $300k, boom!

I played around with the AI logo creator. It is good as a starting point, if
you want an logo that looks more or less like other logos in the training set.
I suspect that describes 99% of small business users, so it's perfect! Just
provide a MOO integration and you'll turn $15k/mo into $100k.

I would be interested to see the tool opened up, so you could do logos with
arbitrary training data -- but with some hard constraints imposed by the user
so it's not just a sea of pornographic aliens cavorting on Dali-inspired
worlds. (edit: unless that's what you're going for, of course)

At the end of the day, what justifies a big agency fee is partly just the
ability to make high-ego corporate clients feel good about their decisions,
and to help them sell those decisions within their political environment.

~~~
gspetr
May I ask what does MOO stand for in your comment?

~~~
maolt
on a guess, possibly this : [https://www.moo.com/us/](https://www.moo.com/us/)
(site for post, business and everything cards)

~~~
zekevermillion
Correct. Almost everyone I meet who is hanging her own shingle, or promoting a
startup, uses moo.com for business cards etc.

------
tzaman
What struck me the most is going with the old and tried tools (PHP+MySQL).
Nowadays everyone - myself included - is trying to have an excuse to try the
sexiest JS framework of the day and most of us fail miserably to deliver
anything useful - because of lack of experience or just reinventing the wheel
altogether.

Old and boring is still sometimes the best.

~~~
elmigranto
> Old and boring is still sometimes the best.

It's not so much old vs new, or cool vs boring, but rather the thing you are
most experienced with. If the goal is to just build the damn thing, go with a
stack you would be most productive in.

~~~
evincarofautumn
When I’ve seen people set out to learn something _and_ build something, they
tend to accomplish neither—but if they focus on just one of those, the other
is often a happy side effect.

~~~
redmaverick
But often, you only learn something by building something.

~~~
lenjaffe
performa prototype build of a thing you've already built. You'll gain the new
knowledge in context, making it even more valuable.

------
callmeed
Its refreshing to see a startup doing well and not feeling the need to force a
subscription on people.

I get that SaaS can be a good business model (great, even). On the other hand,
I think _subscription fatigue_ is real and you should think hard about your
pricing. Dawson is making $15K/month on ONE TIME fees–and fees that are lower
than a lot of monthly SaaS plans.

I want to see more of this.

~~~
dawsonwhitfield
Thanks! Yeah, it's a little unnverving not knowing if you'll make any money
tomorrow, but it's a simple model that fits the solution.

~~~
jaypaulynice
I've been trying to get my logo. My card was charged, but almost 24 hours and
no logo...I emailed you like the page said but nothing...even sent a
tweet...what's going on there?

------
aus_
> What really worked for me is building a small product. The big picture I
> have for Logojoy will take years. I was able to get really excited about it
> because I decided on the simplest version of it. Spend time deciding on the
> most critical features to launch with, and only build those.

Great advice.

~~~
TPCrow
>Once you truly know that every problem can be solved by breaking it down into
smaller pieces, nothing can stop you.

Also great advice. I've used this mentality to go places I never thought
possible.

------
dawsonwhitfield
Hey guys - Dawson here (founder) let me know if you have any questions about
Logojoy / the story.

~~~
shuzchen
Have you looked into whether this is legit on legal usage? You appear to be
using noun project icons in these logos, and afaik most logos on the noun
project are creative commons with attribution (and I confirmed by selecting a
few logos with icons which matched this license on the noun project site).

It doesn't appear that you provide any attribution at all to the icon creators
wherever you display the icon, and I have no idea what license you deliver to
the end user (I haven't went through purchasing a logo - knowing that you're
just sticking some text with a noun-project icon doesn't strike me as worth
it, honestly). Are you in the clear to be displaying these icons with no
attribution, and are the users that buy your icons clear to be putting it on
websites and business cards without attribution?

I haven't even looked into whether your font usage is appropriate, can you
clarify that as well?

~~~
mikejarema
The Noun Project has an API plan which allows for usage like this I believe:
[https://thenounproject.com/developers/](https://thenounproject.com/developers/)

Squarespace, Tailor Brands and some other tools are using the API for logo
design (without the attribution) much like what Logojoy is doing.

------
soneca
I imagine this was upvoted because of Indiehackers credibility, so people just
assumed the achievement of $15k/mo was true.

Until mikejarema noticed in another comment that the product was launched 15
days ago and the title was BS, I believed too. Now I flagged the story because
it is basically a lie. And IndieHackers lost a lot of its credibility for me
by now.

Other people noticed the AI part is most likely BS too. But that is a less
black and white lie than claiming that the creator _" makes $15k/mo"_ when he
hasn't made $15k total in the whole product lifetime.

Shame on you indiehackers for outright lying (maybe twice) in the title just
to get clicks. You gamed HN for this one, but I have the impression that this
will hurt you in the future.

------
patja
I could not for the life of me figure out what I was supposed to do on the
"pick up to 3 symbols" page. And I really tried!

~~~
notwhereyouare
I had to hit enter and wait...and wait...and wait

~~~
tintor
Well, if it doesn't find any icons it will not change anything on the screen.
:)

~~~
jackfrodo
Should probably return a "We couldn't find anything like that :/" so you can
know whether it's loading or just came up short.

------
thefalcon
As a graphic designer, I implore you to PLEASE develop that good banner ad
creation AI product. There are few things and mind numbing as creating 15
variations of the same banner ad over and over and over... My manager and I
would both rather have me working on something else.

~~~
count_zero
Have you seen [https://www.makethunder.com/](https://www.makethunder.com/),
thefalcon?

I've not used it, but it looks like it might help. Here's a demo video:
[https://vimeo.com/163751319](https://vimeo.com/163751319) (warning: loud
surf-rock soundtrack).

~~~
thefalcon
I had not seen it, thank you very much.

------
pimlottc
Very impressing, hits the sweet spot for projects that need a logo but don't
have a big budget. A few comments:

* I skipped picking symbols and it generated a logo with a monogram. I wanted to get rid of this so I looked in the Symbol menu and was frustrated not to find it. I eventually found it in "Layout" but that's not the first place I thought to look.

* There's a lot greyed text used on controls, which is both hard to read and makes it look like the controls are disabled. e.g. horizontal scroll buttons, uppercase/lowercase toggle, text input boxes

* Logos on the preview page load slowly/inconsistently at times, leaving the sample images blank. Perhaps use loading indicators or don't show backgrounds until logo is ready.

* reloading the page loses your work (oops)

~~~
dawsonwhitfield
Thanks for the feedback, really really appreciate it. I've taken notes!

* slow-loading/blank logos is due to HN traffic * reloading the page won't lose your favorites if you have signed up.

------
k__
I did all the work and then got a registration popup that prevented me from
seeing what I was registering for :(

~~~
IgorPartola
Same. Developer tools helped me remove it :)

~~~
tyingq
Yep. Right Click, Inspect then Right Click, Delete element on the modal. Then
click the left arrow icon (upper left, next to hamburger), then click "see
logos" again.

------
dceddia
If I could offer feedback about the pricing structure -- I think if I didn't
know (from the article) that it's free to create unlimited logos, I wouldn't
have figured that out by looking at your pricing section.

And I know it says "It's free to build unlimited logos. Only pay when you want
to download" right there in plain text under the headline, but my eyes skipped
over that part. I expected clickable price boxes too. I think it looks so
similar to a typical SaaS pricing page that I assumed it works the same way. I
don't know how best to fix it, but it might be worth testing different
arrangements to make it clearer that it's free to sign up and create a logo.

~~~
dawsonwhitfield
Thanks for your feedback, will definitely test different arrangements.

------
johns
You should expand to recreational sports teams. The logos all follow similar
formats and everyone wants one that looks professional but on a limited
budget. There are design services that will do it manually but your algorithm
approach would work really well for it as well.

------
inthaiguy
I used it but wasn't too impressed with the quality of the results.
Squarespace logo builder is still better. The good news is that that lots of
people now know there's a market for this and we should see some impressive
products in the pipeline.

------
taytus
So.... ML/AI to me this looks more like a rand() than anything else. What am I
missing?

~~~
dangero
VC Money

------
blunte
I'm happy this guy built something that's generating income, but the results
of my attempt to use it just now were really underwhelming. Page after page of
COMAPANY NAME on plain cards with different fonts didn't really demonstrate
much AI. My takeaway here is that this "story" is not yet a story. Maybe 1-2
years from now, after the product has really developed and evolved, it will be
something.

~~~
shaunpud
Yeah, same experience here, there are other sites offering different fonts +
'clipart' to make a rand() logo. Don't see much AI here, still waiting for
SkyNet...

------
ChicagoBoy11
Just a quick feedback:

I tried making a logo that used the character ó, and it seemed that some logos
rendered that character correctly, but others omitted it. So the word móbile
in some logos would display correctly but in others it would show up as mbile.

~~~
Globz
I have the same problem with the word dépôt it will render as dpt instead.

------
rspeer
If you're still reading this: could you please allow + in the e-mail address?

I understand why you want me to sign up, but I have no idea how much e-mail
you're going to decide to send me, and sending it to a plus-address allows me
to filter it on my terms.

There's really no reason _not_ to allow the + sign, unless you're going to do
something nefarious with my e-mail address and you don't want me to know it
was you.

~~~
Qwertystop
How would plus-addressing prevent them doing something nefarious? I would
think that if they're selling it, they could strip out anything post-plus in
the process easily.

~~~
rspeer
That is true. So the only reason for disallowing plus signs in addresses is
ignorance, not malice.

------
kevin_thibedeau
> Firefox is not supported. We recommend using chrome.

No joy for me.

~~~
AckSyn
If people would write to standards w/o crazy tricks or browser specific
extras, it wouldn't matter what was used.

------
WheelsAtLarge
Good site, scary site, good because it does a great job at creating a simple
logo. I suspect that it can cover the majority of the small companies that
want a logo. It certainly does a good job. I tried and created a pretty good
one.

I've used other similar sites but they've all been created by a team of
programmers and system/network administrators over a few years.

Scary because it brings into focus how easy it is to replace what could be
considered a somewhat complicated job. Yes, it can't replace all graphic
designers but it magnifies the power of a few by a large factor. In this case,
just one motivated individual.

Edit: changed bad to scary, fits better with my thinking, and fixed typos

~~~
craftandhustle
From my perspective, this tool and others like it in areas like web
development or stock photography are beneficial. Affordable access to these
resources for businesses and individuals will make the world a better
(aesthetically speaking) place.

When I'm introduced to new clients, I always explain that what they get out of
hiring me is my critical thinking and manner of solving problems.
Deliverables, be they logos or videos or interactive experiences, are
incidental to the strategy.

Sometimes clients say all they want is a <logo|image|video>. After listening
to their reasoning (financial, time sensitive, short-term need, etc), as
designers we can and should offer honest advice and any guidance that comes
along with that. I'm often amazed at the public ridicule some designers will
put people through for simple inquiries. It might not be the right project for
me, and I would thus not recommend anyone else for it, but I could point them
to a service like this.

~~~
dualogy
> Affordable access to these resources for businesses and individuals will
> make the world a better (aesthetically speaking) place.

Either that or it will turn "good typography" into the new "ComicSans".
Already in the hip areas of big cities (say, "AirBnb city-trip cities on all
continents") you're seeing neat type on Every. Friggin. Barbershop or corner
cafe.

Still, that's can only drive the "true creatives" to discover and explore the
next frontier of aesthetics to then, once again, help "high worth" clients set
themselves apart from the crowd, once again. Not the worst dynamic in the
world.

------
gbraad
The icons seem to come from thenounproject? I saw my own icon (or derivative)
being used without attribution.

------
alexbeloi
Could you go into any more depth about the ML being used?

Also, did the site break from traffic? Because I just finished picking out my
things and it's been stuck on generating logos for the past 5 minutes.

~~~
dawsonwhitfield
If you click into a logo, then click back out, it should un-stick.

I talked about the ML in a comment here and on IH.

And yes the site is definitely hurting right now :P

~~~
thekonqueror
Where are you hosting it?

~~~
agopaul
Seems heroku

    
    
        $ nslookup logojoy.com
        Server:         8.8.8.8
        Address:        8.8.8.8#53
        
        Non-authoritative answer:
        logojoy.com     canonical name = carbonlogo.herokuapp.com.
        carbonlogo.herokuapp.com        canonical name = us-east-1-a.route.herokuapp.com.
        Name:   us-east-1-a.route.herokuapp.com
        Address: 23.21.52.24

------
amelius
I wonder how this compares to Fiverr [1], which actually has human-power
behind it, and lets you create a logo for only a few bucks.

[1] [https://www.fiverr.com/categories/graphics-
design/creative-l...](https://www.fiverr.com/categories/graphics-
design/creative-logo-design)

~~~
Qwertystop
In that case (based on minimum wage in the US), either you're getting five
dollars worth of quality, which is probably even less than this because this
process allows extremely fast revisions, or the person doing it is getting
massively underpaid. Or they live somewhere that cost-of-living and a typical
wage are low enough that $5 for the work makes sense. Or they're using an
automated system with an even lower cost-per-unit, which probably overlaps
with the first possibility.

------
innocentoldguy
Nice product. I went through the logo creation process, and I was surprised at
how nice some of the logos were. The site was simple to understand and easy to
use as well. Excellent job!

The only criticism I have is that the max password length is too short. I
couldn't enter the generated, 30-character passwords I typically use.

------
samstave
Some feedback:

I love the UX/UI - but I cant tell it where to put the color/font selections
and it only previews with "COMPANY NAME" instead of actually updating with the
company name and slogan that you asked me for in the beginning on the
selection process...

So - I don't know if I like the selection based on that because I wanted the
reverse of what it offered (I wanted orange letters with grey background - but
it only gives me orange bkgd with grey letters...

I would also like a bit better control over the location of the icon.

The "saved logo" update pop-up is confusing as when I go back to logo - it
doesn't always hold the design I selected...

Otherwise this is impressive and awesome... I'd like to use it.

------
foopod
Do you have a plan of attack to ensure that your machine learning will still
be able to make really unique logos while at the same time prioritising
pleasing aesthetics? Is there an element of mutation where it will suggest
something totally obscure?

------
exolymph
A very similar service that's donation-based:
[http://emblemmatic.org/markmaker/](http://emblemmatic.org/markmaker/)

The UX isn't as good and the app isn't as full-fledged.

------
rosstex
Does the coder of Logojoy 'own' the logos that its AI produces?

~~~
throwaway89012
Not under US copyright law.

------
NegatioN
Really impressive!

I feel there's still so many ideas to make a business around if you base it on
ML/AI. Being early here could potentially net a huge passive income.
Personally I have an idea in mind, and I'm still learning ML slowly on the
side. In my eyes this is the true way to independence from "the system" for
people who put in enough effort and who have enough knowledge.

Why do we not see more of this yet? Is the combination of people who know
machine learning, and people who are entrepeneurs so narrow?

~~~
dawsonwhitfield
One thing is the intimidation factor. 3 months ago, I had 0% confidence that I
could do anything that even touched ML. I'm still very new to the game, but
once I started learning about it, it became much more approachable.

~~~
acedinlowball
What your product does isn't machine learning. It is even a stretch to call it
an artificial intelligence. It's all marketing, self-promotion nonsense

------
wheelerwj
Now this is pretty cool. of all the articles indiehackers has posted in the
last few weeks, this one is actually innovative and new.

very cool!

------
jaypaulynice
I'm not sure if this is a scam. I went through the process and paid and I
should get a logo in 30 minutes, but I've been waiting for 12+ hours and still
no logo. I email the CEO, which the site says to email at dawson@logojoy.com,
yet no response and no sign of a logo in my emails...hmm!

------
thasaleni
It would be nice if you keep the selected options in browser session, in case
i accidentally navigate away from the site, I don't have to retype everything,
and also if i favorite a logo the ability to view logos like it (or based on
the choices that led to it)

------
kelvin0
FireFox not supported by LogoJoy. The joy has left me, I really liked the
whole idea though.

------
module0000
Logojoy's page pops up:

"""

We're experience some technical difficulties right now (looking at you, HN).
If you experience any bugs, try a couple more times or sign up and come back a
little later to make your logo. Thanks! """

------
listic
I was going to say that I could hire a human designer on Upwork to design a
logo like that for the same kind of money, but I guess I can't argue with your
revenue numbers. Congratulations!

~~~
sombremesa
Indie Hackers has a vested interest in inaccurate/misleading revenue
reporting[1]. Regardless of that, I'm not sure they properly verify the
revenue in the first place.

I wouldn't go as far as to call the numbers a lie, but I would never use this
website as a data point to create a business model.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12269425](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12269425)

------
hartator
Really inspiring story, great product and awesome transparency. Big Kudos for
all of this.

This guy deserves VC money to make his next big company than most of the
current startups we are seeing.

------
throwawaylalala
I want to promote your product; do you have affiliate options?

------
thom
Totally read it as 'AI-powered lego creator' and became terribly confused for
a few seconds. But still, someone should create one of those.

~~~
mullen
> 'AI-powered lego creator'

AI-Powered Lego creator would be pretty awesome. Make custom lego sets based
on various real life things you pick.

~~~
xorxornop
Well, why not? With modern 3d printers this is definitely possible. Oh, some
will be veeeerry funky looking, for sure (not from printing process; from
design), but that might just be more entertaining

------
rajandatta
Thanks for posting and sharing your story. It was an inspired use of a
learning get algorithm and we can all learn from it. Well done.

------
WhitneyLand
I've had better luck with these guys:

[https://www.tailorbrands.com](https://www.tailorbrands.com)

------
diyseguy
Hmm.. A sophisticated search and mashup with nice presentation - but ... I
don't think I'd call it A.I.

------
kdamken
Super beat that you need to sign up for it to view the logos it produced.
Enjoy the fake email I guess.

~~~
pimlottc
The messaging here is a little coy - "Signup to save your progress" But I
don't care about saving my progress, I'll just close this and... oh, I can't.
So it's not so much, sign up to save your progress, it's sign up, period.

~~~
gridspy
Yes, this is the point at which I exited also. I believe you'll be losing a
lot of people at this point.

You should make it possible to close this dialog and store a session cookie so
people can come back.

~~~
Geee
Probably not if you really need a logo.

~~~
Drdrdrq
Yes, I need a logo, but do I need _this_ logo? I haven't seen it yet.

------
tripzilch
how to "earn" 15k/mo:

"It starts with tracking basically everything our users do."

maybe our machines are learning, but these so-called hackers certainly aren't.

------
shaunpud
@csallen Is a bit quiet

------
rekshaw
Guys, don't view source. It's a jQuery hell.

------
PunchTornado
like I'm going to install a new browser just to visit a site. no thanks.

------
ravins
Great work.

------
shooray
test it

------
vacri
> _I 've been a designer for 12 years or so_

...

> _Firefox is not supported. We recommend using chrome._

'Best viewed in Netscape Navigator at 800x600'

~~~
guitarbill
From
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13065810](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13065810)

> Firefox has known issues with svg

> I'm sure we can get around them, but not in v1

------
nilved
Their website is broken because of an HTML syntax error.

Cases like this remind me that success is often "right place, right time."
Notch is another good example of bad engineering going far.

~~~
gxs
This is an especially cynical and petty comment, and that's coming from
someone who isn't exactly a glass is half full type of person.

As someone who's launched several ventures, this solves a big pain point and
it is very apparent that a lot of thought went into putting this together.

There is room for improvement, sure, but to dismiss it so casually or
attribute its success to dumb luck because of a syntax error really sounds
jaded.

~~~
cr0sh
Gotta agree with ya. There's been times I've wanted a logo or something
(mainly for just playing with an idea), and I really stink at artwork.
Sometimes I can get something passable out of inkscape - but it is rare.

------
SilverPaladin
HN is crashing Logojoy lol!

------
daxfohl
Makes the case for an AI-powered bug bounty service. Blockchain if big enough.

------
bikamonki
They say: don't worry! Jobs taken by AI will be replaced by new ones yet to be
invented.

Right.

------
oliv__
Semi-related but wow: _/ app.php_ \-- hadn't seen that in a while. It's like
bumping into an old friend in the street.

~~~
nacs
You've probably bumped into that friend many times in the street on an almost
daily basis without noticing it..

It's just that most sites/frameworks that use PHP use some kind of rewriting
so the ".php" isn't visible (CodeIgniter/Wordpress and many others do this
automatically).

~~~
oliv__
Oh yeah true I forgot about that... of course.

