
By Making a Game Out of Rejection, a Man Conquers Fear - megaultra
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/01/16/377239011/by-making-a-game-out-of-rejection-a-man-conquers-fear
======
xianshou
I play Go and chess, and I think of it this way: the best players may have won
more than others, but they have also lost more than others, because they have
simply played more games. Frequent loss or rejection is a necessary step to
goodness. This also applies to business, the opposite sex, and most anything
else that might matter to you.

Or, to paraphrase many an artist and CEO: if I have not failed today, it means
I have not been ambitious enough.

~~~
john_b
To quote Michael Jordan:

 _" I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games.
26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've
failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."_

Willingness to fail is a precondition for learning and growth.

~~~
anapparition
A quote of a similar nature: "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again.
Fail again. Fail better." \- Samuel Beckett

------
benten10
I have a problem that's opposite of his: a fear of acceptance. Making a game
out of the rejection game is all fun, except when you don't get rejections.
Imagine the guy you ask for a ride across the town actually insists you take
the ride with him. The girl (re: an earlier comment)who you ask for a number
gives you her number, but also asks for yours, and actually calls you to make
sure it's right.

So here's my conundrum: one one hand, there's a fear of going beyond my
comfort zone. On the other there's what appears to be (likely quite
unjustified) confidence that I will not get rejected as I hope. And thus,
stasis.

Was it Twain (or Groucho Marx?) who said "I don't want to become part of any
club that will happily take me as their member"? That's quite a problem for
me, and it's not as devastating as general fear of approaching people, but
still quite annoying.

~~~
elliejay
I think I may know where you are coming from. I, too, am afraid of acceptance,
but it's partly because I think I know better than others that I am not truly
worthy of their acceptance. I am dismayed when really good people want to
reach out to me and be friends. I feel like I will be living a lie if I try to
buoy their misconception of my value and I do not want to disappoint them. But
the mere thought of trying to maintain that lie (that I am worthy of their
friendship and affection) is just so exhausting for me to even imagine.
Therefore, it is so much easier for me to avoid acceptance and just live my
hermetic little life. Which ultimately, leads me back to a fear of rejection,
I guess. Hmm.

~~~
benten10
Ehh, you have not hung out with other people enough then. ;) You may be a
'loser', so to say, but most people around you are even bigger 'losers'. When
I came to the country I am now in, I saw an image of amazing glowing
enlightened creatures in my peers and everyone around me. Four years in, and I
realize they are more immature, socially awkward and stranger than _I_ ever
was, and most of them are also lot stupider. These days, I beat myself over
not figuring that out earlier. Look around yourself closely, and you'll
realize hey, you're actually pretty awesome! :)

------
CuriouslyC
This is a good attitude.

My philosophy on failure is a little different. I re-frame my actions as
experiments. I come up with a hypothesis, and record the conditions and
outcome of my experiments, then do a little mini-analysis on the results to
try and understand it. Rather than view getting the outcome I wanted as
success, I view learning from the experiment as a success, which is great,
because you typically aren't in control of the outcome of events, but you
absolutely are in control of how methodical you are. This also causes you to
learn a lot faster than you otherwise would, which is great too.

------
bitL
He could accelerate his progress if he just did 50 cold calls to random
strangers selling diapers a day - he would be super hardened after a week ;-)

~~~
fenomas
Which raises an interesting question - do people with such jobs deal
exceptionally well with rejection?

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they do, but then I wouldn't be if they
were more than averagely depressed, either.

Surely someone must have looked into this.

~~~
balabaster
I've worked with alongside cold-call sales people - not as a sales person
myself.

Largely, my observation of them wasn't that they're particularly thick
skinned, nor were they particularly desensitized to rejection. The thing that
most of them had in common was that they weren't emotionally bound to the
outcome. They didn't care if the person said yes or no - except for the
endorphin kick they got when they saw their pay cheque get bigger. For most of
them, it was a game they played against each other - in the same way you might
enjoy a board game and you strive to win, but the real fun is the camaraderie
of the players.

A rejection got a shoulder shrug and a "whatever, next" or a few choice curse
words and the finger when the sales person wasted more time than necessary for
a sale that never came before quickly moving on to the next call - the
previous call forgotten as quickly as the next, unless the conversation was
particularly humorous or worth sharing with their compatriots.

Those with no scruples learned to manipulate people really well and got the
sales by whatever means necessary. Those that cared got sales by listening to
the customer and understanding the customer's needs. Mostly though, almost
without exception, those with the most sales were those that got through the
highest volume phone calls in a day. The success rate could be skewed to have
a higher ratio of sales to calls, but at the end of the day, that took
emotional effort and didn't really yield any extra benefit to the sales person
- of course, this potentially had a huge negative affect on the reputation of
the company. I see the same thing with all the utility companies. Their sales
teams are often the first point of contact for a customer. But the sales guys
don't care about that, all they care about are the numbers. The rest is for
customer service to figure out.

The lesson I learned from watching the sales guys in action is that all things
considered equal, the greater the volume of calls, the greater your success.
Don't be emotionally involved in the outcome before it's necessary to do so -
at the end of the day, you're just asking her to come for coffee with you,
you're not asking her to marry you. The more people you ask to go for coffee,
the more chance you'll find someone that's got nothing better to do than go
for coffee with you - even if you do think they're out of your league (that's
another concept I don't believe in, but that's for another day and another
post).

~~~
mod
People are certainly "out of each other's league," at least in the sense that
some people do not measure up to others' desires.

Of course, you can't really know what their qualifications are. Only they
know, and they're going to run deeper than first impressions. So no, they're
not out of your league yet!

~~~
balabaster
Yes, but the whole concept of being out of someone's league has the underlying
implication that the person you're considering is better than you somehow.

Just because they're not your cup of tea, or vice versa doesn't make them out
of your league, they just make that person different than you. People are
people, we all eat, drink, shit and do what we have to do to survive. Even the
most "successful" CEO, the Queen of England and the person living on the
street has the same basic needs. Everything else is a by-product of our
circumstance and the way we choose to live our lives.

Anyway, we're getting off-topic ;)

~~~
mod
You're digging at that "everyone is unique" vibe, or "everybody wins." I don't
really think it's relevant.

I think when people say that, it's typically along the lines of "that person
is very [attractive|smart|rich|combo] and could have any of millions of
partners at will. I'm unremarkable in all [perceivable|probably-important-to-
them] ways, so it's an extreme longshot to pursue them."

Doesn't mean they're not wrong. Everyone has a chance, sure--Beauty and the
Beast, right? But they might want to optimize for "people in their league,"
especially if the fear of rejection is in them like the guy in OP.

...back on topic!

~~~
wtbob
> But they might want to optimize for "people in their league," especially if
> the fear of rejection is in them like the guy in OP.

I think folks should try not to worry about that too much:
[http://imgur.com/gallery/eo5oq](http://imgur.com/gallery/eo5oq)

~~~
balabaster
I agree. Optimize for what's important to you, nothing more. Eventually you'll
find someone that's got everything that's important to you, where you have
everything that's important to them...

The real trick is to optimize what's important to you and realize that most of
the stuff that society/the media would have you think is important is really
just meaningless shit. What matters is your connection with each other, do you
have complementary perspectives, goals, motivations, desires and dreams? Do
you make each other laugh? Do you enjoy each others company? The rest is just
superficial nonsense.

------
SeanDav
As a teenager I went to an all boys school, so was very shy with women. One
day I just decided to get over my fear and resolved to ask for the telephone
number of every pretty girl that caught my attention in public, even if they
were with other girls. Importantly to the process was that it was never my
intention to actually call the girl - just to see what percentage gave me
their number. Since the outcome was not important, it did not matter if I was
successful or not.

It worked surprisngly well. I got over my fear and was quite amazed at my
success rate. IIRC it was around 25%, maybe even higher.

It was important to not be creepy, just friendly and withdraw if the situation
became at all uncomfortable.

~~~
brazzy
The question is how many of those 25% were fake numbers "just to get that
creeper off my back". It's nice that you decided to "not be creepy", but it's
not you who decides how your behaviour is judged.

~~~
thirdtruck
That's a bit (I admit not entirely) like saying that "Maybe all those free-
throws you practiced between games didn't score us any actual points."

100% of the women he didn't ask did not give him his number. The exercise
served the purpose of pushing him past the fear that would have otherwise
paralyzed him during a real request.

~~~
rada
Except women are people, not inanimate objects to bounce balls off of. Those
women did not choose to participate in SeanDav's practice, and it was not
cost-free to them to be used and discarded that way.

More to brazzy's point, SeanDav doesn't get to decide how he comes across to
people. Pretty young women get hit on _constantly_ and it is really exhausting
and demoralizing to be rudely interrupted every five minutes while out in
public, by people who pretend to be friendly but clearly have ulterior
motives. The girl - who was, by definition, interrupted for the umpteenth time
that day - likely considered the interruption unpleasant and at least somewhat
creepy. Withdrawing "if the situation becomes uncomfortable" is taking it
many, many steps too far and is frankly wishful thinking - people in general,
and girls especially, are not socialized to tell people to f--ck off right
away so by the time the situation is so uncomfortable that the girl actually
asks you to leave her alone, it is way past discomfort for her.

Not to mention that if all you really want to do is practice free-throws, you
don't need to bust your way into the most elite basketball court to do it.
Nothing wrong with practicing within your league. Why couldn't he get phone
numbers from unattractive girls, or boys?

~~~
chillingeffect
Ironically, it seems you're trying to sympathize with women by saying they're
not inanimate objects to bounce balls off of, but you're still denying them
autonomy.

When women want attention, they dress attractively. When they don't want
attention, they dress casually. It's just like birds. Ever wonder why they
call it the birds and the bees? If you're a guy and you hit on women in
sweatpants, you'll most likely fail, b/c those women are not signalling their
availability and interest.

And before someone goes all "women should be able to dress however they want
and not get raped," consider that I'm not advocating rape. I'm pointing out
that the previous poster asked "attractive" women for their phone numbers, not
every woman. Logically, this implies that he was asking women who were seeking
attraction by dressing attractively and presenting themselves as available and
seeking mates, just like birds who sing to signal their availability.

The reason everyone confuses attractiveness is that our media present it as a
thing that you have or don't. "Movie stars have it, computer nerds don't." But
the real truth is that attractiveness is something you _do_. When you want to
"get out there," to signal your availability and interest in mating, you _do_
attractiveness. It doesn't matter how fat or pimply you are: You adorn
yourself, you clean yourself, wear fancy clothes, you grab attention, you
impress people, try hairstyles. Once you're married, reproducing, dropping
kids off in a minivan on Saturday morning, you wear sweatpants and other
casual clothes and no one (except social retards, of which there are
unfortunately plenty) hits on you. Or else if you miss that egoistic feeling
of being attractive, you dress up a little bit and reject all the people that
hit on you.

This is how it works. It's just one step advanced from non-speaking mammals.
Political correctness is just an attempt to cover up the realities that not
everyone understands, just like religion and the Republican party are
shorthand behaviors/scripts for people to follow when they don't know exactly
what to do.

~~~
toothbrush
_> Logically, this implies that he was asking women who were seeking
attraction by dressing attractively and presenting themselves as available and
seeking mates, just like birds who sing to signal their availability._

Hm, the male gaze is heavy with this one. Has it ever occurred to you that
people (of whatever gender) might like to put on clothes to please themselves?
Because it makes them feel nice? Your assumption that the only possible reason
to do that could be to "show availability" and that it was done with other
people, and their regard, in mind, is awfully egocentric of you.

Incidentally, i agree with your thesis that attractiveness isn't a have/have
not thing, nor is it about normative tastes with regards to appearance. This
is, however, orthogonal to whether or not women exist simply to mate with, and
that they signal this by clothing choices (which is what you're implying, by
denying that anyone would dress a certain way for other reasons).

------
wtbob
It's possible (probable) that he had developed a fear of rejection due to his
divorce, but the very fact that he had a divorce indicates that he had been
able to date and marry in the first place (to a poor choice, no doubt). I'm
sure that his approach was able to return him to where he was before, and
perhaps improve him, but I wonder if it would be any good for someone with a
deep-seated fear of rejection, or if it might not make things worse (perhaps
due to a few scenarios ending poorly, or the subject finding himself unable to
complete even the simplest ones, and retreating further into himself).

~~~
d23
Actually "immersion" or "flooding" is one of the things known to be effective
for this:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooding_%28psychology%29](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooding_%28psychology%29)
It's just basic conditioning.

------
pella
old comments ..

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5035438](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5035438)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1754790](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1754790)

------
pella
video - 5 min

"Mark Moschel - 30 Days of Rejection Therapy"

Presented at the 2013 Quantified Self Conference

[http://vimeo.com/79453884](http://vimeo.com/79453884)

------
kyleblarson
Very good article, but I would say that exposure therapy has limits. I live in
an area with lots of rattlesnakes and am terrified of them. I'm certainly not
going to risk a venomous bite to get over my fear.

~~~
kelnos
I think the idea is that exposure therapy helps you get over irrational fears.
Fear of a venomous snake isn't really irrational.

~~~
erikpukinskis
Actually generalized fear of the venemous snakes _is_ irrational. It's an
overgeneralization. You should be afraid of stepping on or near a snake by
accident. But if you are 20 feet away from a rattlesnake who is aware of your
presence, you are not in any danger.

------
ck425
Fascinating. I do a lot of amateur theatre and one of the most useful things
about it is that it forces you to do similar things to on a regular basis and
it really does help a lot in various aspects of life. In particular it really
helps deal with interview and presentation stress. I'm very tempted to give
this a go myself.

------
WhitneyLand
Anyone tried anything like this, informally as described here or in a formal
setting?

I wonder how often it is successful.

~~~
MatthiasP
Exposure to your fears is a pretty standard method out of the wide spectrum of
cognitive-behavioural-therapy tools. Of course, preparation for that is the
most important part of it. AFAIK, it works for about a third to half of the
patients, depending on what measurement for success you apply.

------
auggierose
Well, it's a great way of finding out what people really think about you.
Obviously, this cannot work on a large scale, because a lot of what society
does is making sure that people NEVER find out what they think about each
other.

~~~
Zelphyr
It seems to me, though, that if we did, we wouldn't care. Sure it would bother
me if two people I work with whom I respect told me what they truly thought of
me and it was incongruous with my expectation of what they thought of me. But
I think if I found out what EVERYONE thought of me it would quickly stop
caring.

But I guess to your point, if that happened then structures of society would
break down. Still, I'm not sure that would be a bad thing necessarily since at
the very least we'd start being completely honest with one another. Kind of
makes me thing of the movie The Invention Of Lying.

------
percept
I like the empowerment angle of this story, but a couple of the comments raise
the valid question of whether or not this (further) breaks society.

------
tinkerdol
Anyone have a deck of cards for handling fear of success?

------
mrbig4545
what is it with gamifaction? I don't get it - it doesn't motivate me at all,
infact it probably has the opposite effect.

~~~
copsarebastards
I doubt that. It's just that gamification requires you to buy into the premise
of the game in the first place: to agree to try to maximize whatever "point"
system the game scores you with. In some sense, income is a point system which
you're almost certainly trying to maximize.

Your comment reminds me of myself when I used to claim marketing doesn't work
on me, and that it even made me less likely to buy things. And then found out
about the brown bag effect (a marketing technique which uses drab colors and
minimal text to look non-flashy). Gamification isn't as developed a science as
marketing, but it still works pretty well, and it's very unlikely that it
doesn't work on you.

------
bryceadams
Great things often come out of rejection, failure, disappointment. Problems
need solutions, etc.

------
spiritplumber
I got a lot of numbers by having a small robot set up with a phone, whereby
sending a SMS to that phone with a command would execute it. Add a bit of
busking. Doesn't mean anyone will want to talk back if you call later, though
;)

------
phatfish
If my wife had divorced me and i ended up a crying heap on the floor like this
guy i would probably want to try this. Most people are not in that situation
though, it's all relative.

Fair play to him though.

~~~
hessenwolf
Don't worry, dude. Give it time.

Coming out of any multi-year relationship is normally a shock to the system.
The wonderful whiff of want is the fiercest anti-pheromone.

Also, a good tip, put a rug on the floor.

~~~
mod
This reads like greek to me, or like a Markov bot.

I thought maybe it was a quote, but google has only indexed this page for
"wonderful whiff of want."

You coined a phrase, anyway!

~~~
hessenwolf
There's naught to do but converse, in a wee village in the West of Ireland.
Gotta put a bit of colour in.

------
jonpress
I didn't have many friends in school. I never tried to fit in - I found other
people in my class to be predictable and uninteresting and it took me too much
energy to pretend that I was enjoying their company. I went through several
years of school with no friends at all - At times, 'cool' kids would invite me
to play sports with them after school but I never did. I spent all my lunch
breaks alone programming games on school library computers.

I don't have much fear of rejection nowadays. I consistently choose the most
difficult life decisions because I like challenges.

~~~
balabaster
If you like a challenge, why did you fold from the challenge of enjoying a
sense of community with those that appear uninteresting to you? Everyone has
something to learn and something to teach. I bet if you'd stuck it out, there
was much you could have learned from them, and them from you. Closing yourself
off in a room robs both you and them from a chance to grow.

~~~
ObviousScience
I hear that a lot, but I just don't have about more than even 30 minutes of
pretend interest to give people I find boring.

Maybe I'm an asshole, but I genuinely prefer to just sit alone and think about
things than talk to people I find boring, even if they have yet another funny
story about something to do with fishing that's slightly different than the
others.

This isn't to say I don't go to the bar and chat up people in small time
windows, I just don't bother to spend several hours talking to someone I don't
find interesting.

I don't see why I should use my time that way.

~~~
balabaster
Most of the talk is superficial talk about stuff that doesn't matter. They're
telling you because you're listening. They haven't got to the deep stuff yet,
perhaps they're not invested in you(?) Why do they enjoy fishing? Perhaps they
like the solitude, why? Maybe it's the same reason you enjoy it. Maybe they
don't like people either. Why is that? Perhaps it's the same reason as you.
Perhaps there is a deeper underlying topic to discuss than that fish they
caught that's slightly different than the other person's fish. You're
confusing superficial small talk with meaningful conversation. Maybe you're
not digging because you don't care and that's fair enough. The bigger question
is why don't you care? Is there nothing more to that person than meets the
eye? Or do you just not care about them enough to dig past the superficial
small talk to the real person underneath?

What is it you prefer to think about rather than reach out and make a
meaningful connection with others?

