
Begging for Your Pay - wallflower
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/begging-for-your-pay/
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kls
I guess I just don't understand this. Do these people continue to work out of
desperation or is their another factor. I work on a net 30 after a retainer
fee. So the client has 30 days after the work is performed to pay me. If it
runs past 45 their work goes on hold, I start work for another client and
theirs does not resume till a) I get paid and b) the work that I have begun
for another client is done. I have only had this happen with 1 or 2 clients
and it only happened once. I just don't see how someone gets months and months
in the hole with someone. If I am not paid in full, no work progresses until I
am I don't understand why someone would continue to do work for someone who
has an issue paying for the work that is already done. I mean if they are
having money trouble now, your next bill is just going to compound their
troubles. Which reduces the odds of you getting paid for the latter work even
more.

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alain94040
It's called a market. In the situation you describe, you have other offers of
work, so you can be strict. How would you behave if you had no other offers?
Sure, you can complain all you want about the invoice not getting paid.

~~~
kls
I will make no illusions to the fact that in my situation, not getting paid
will not put me behind a months rent or cause me serious financial harm. But
to me working and not getting paid is worse than not, working at all or in my
case working on my own projects. I am sure if my financial situation where
different, I would still feel the same. To me, wasting my time chasing bad
money no matter the prospects of alternatives is just not worth the risk when
my time could be applied to productive endeavors. If I am going to risk not
getting paid I am going to risk it on my project with far more potential
upside than a wage. The way I see it, that client is putting the risk of the
project on your shoulder, they are putting you in a pay for performance
situation after the fact. That or they are committing outright wage theft.

~~~
shortlived
> I am sure if my financial situation where different, I would still feel the
> same.

This is based on your current "safe" mindset. I can assure you that if you
were in a very different financial situation that your thinking would most
likely change.

~~~
kls
_This is based on your current "safe" mindset_

No it's based on me knowing myself very well through critical analysis of
myself. I am an all chips in guy. I have been up and down but through it all,
I have always been consistent on my principals, when I was starting out I
walked out of a really bad position with nary a weeks pay in the bank. I
barely landed something new and made the rent in time. Never the less, I stuck
to my principals. I made it really big on an exit, bet it all on investments
and start-ups, lost it all, went another round after working some jobs, had
two good exits and started playing it safer by switching to consulting,
irregardless of all of that my core values and principals never wavered. So I
am pretty sure, if my financial situation was different, I would still feel
the same.

~~~
foljs
> No it's based on me knowing myself very well through critical analysis of
> myself.

You'd be surprised how one's self can change under unsafe circumstances,
despite all the "critical analysis" he had done...

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josephcooney
In Australia you put a debt like this in the hands of a collection agency, who
either buy the debt from you, or collect the debt on your behalf and take a %.
They use whatever means of coercion (legal means of course) they have to
extract the money from the person.

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rwhitman
This really hit home for me, as I just woke up to an email today from a
client, who owed me the equivalent of a month's salary, to tell me there have
been complications with payment. Basically every bill I have to pay now gets
managed in the debt shuffle, once again.

I'm really over this, if employers could simply deny wages to FT employees
there'd be hell to pay. Some clients deliberately use NET-90+ for freelancers
as a way of managing debt, they pay off any debt with hefty finance charges
first, and any vendor that doesn't have the teeth to collect or balls to
charge and enforce 20% interest gets perpetually shuffled to the bottom of the
pile.

I hope in a future where freelance is considered a more socially acceptable
method of employment we can establish some more protective legal frameworks
for the self-employed. The system as it stands is completely flawed

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Oxryly
Is it possible (and effective) to enlist the services of a debt collection
agency in these cases?

~~~
ams6110
With a debt collection agency you assign them the debt. They pay you a
fraction of the amount due, and if they manage to collect it they keep the
balance for themselves.

Selling debt to a collector is giving up. You do it when you decide that the
probability of getting paid is too small for you to spend further time on it.

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alexyim
Moral of the story is: Monitor your cash flow if you're freelancing because
you essentially are your own business.

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grav1tas
What are the odds of someday independent software developers being able to
file liens on companies that stiff them? People who work on your house are
able to do it, what's the big difference there? I suppose if you develop
somebody software, there may not, necessarily, be anything to put a lien
ON...but I suppose that could be something that the contractor could check up
on ahead of time.

~~~
elai
You do not transfer copyright until you are paid in full. Partial payments do
not count. If they have not paid, every system and backup of that system that
has your piece of code in it must be taken down, by your own hands if
necessary as stated in your work contract. Also make sure everything is
tracked with git or something similar so you could even automate removing the
parts you have written. If you build on someone else's work, that derivative
work would be yours and you can remove it. Thats about the closest equivalent
I can think of a software lien.

~~~
grav1tas
That's great and all, but wouldn't you have to grab a lawyer to do anything
serious? I thought a real lien was as easy as waltzing down to a courthouse
and filling out some paperwork. I'm probably totally wrong about that though.
I guess what I was wondering was if there was some kind of automated process
to claiming what's owed in the court system.

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sportsTAKES
Where is the integrity?

My company is constantly scratching and clawing for invoices to be paid. We're
a small company that works with several much larger companies. While we offer
a great product that our accounts need, we have little leverage when it comes
to 'extracting' payment.

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patrickgzill
Think of this part of the economy like musical chairs - everyone is OK with
the money being "on its way" until the music stops. Now, everyone truly needs
the money and there is apparently, not enough to pay everyone in full...

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drivingmenuts
Like the article says: Better the devil you know, than the one you don't.

~~~
Eliezer
That is called "being too lazy to break a mental habit".

~~~
Vivtek
Wow, perhaps that's what it's called by really arrogant people.

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rmc
This brilliant video shows what it would be like if this practice was common
in other industries.

[http://www.dump.com/2010/12/13/the-vendor-client-
relationshi...](http://www.dump.com/2010/12/13/the-vendor-client-relationship-
in-real-world-situations-video/)

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z0r
It's good to have your pockets picked by invisible hands!

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sabat
I've noticed this trend lately in business parlance -- an executive or manager
or founder will same something like "blah blah blah ... and of course the
[developers|UI people|marketers|etc.] want to be paid, so that puts more
pressure on the revenue."

"Want to be paid." I hear that a lot now. Want. As if they're asking for a
hand-out, begging for something they don't necessarily deserve. They _want_ to
be paid. I sense a similar attitude here.

~~~
secret
I've always interpreted that phrase to mean "they're not doing this for free,
you know" because of the tone in which it's usually said.

~~~
sabat
That's what it sounds like it means, but the choice of words implies that
they're asking for a favor. They _want_ to be paid. Not _need_ or _deserve_.
Just want.

