
Group of Googlers announce support for Dragonfly - amaccuish
https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/28/google-dragonfly-letter/
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DanielBMarkham
_"...Dragonfly is well aligned with Google’s mission. China has the largest
number of Internet users of all countries in the world, and yet, most of
Google’s services are unavailable in China. This situation heavily contradicts
our mission, “to organize the world’s information and make it universally
accessible and useful”..."_

Ignoring the rest of the logic and values questions involved, a mission is
_what you want to see happen_ , not what you're going to do. You may do
nothing -- and that might be the best thing you can do for your mission to
succeed.

Missions are not to-do lists. They are statements of value that are supposed
to be more important than the entity stating them. People die on important
missions. The mission is what the important thing is, not how you fit into it.

------
hknd
I think it's too easy to judge without ever living in China. People should
always look at both sides, and try to understand the whole situation.

Ofc people in China strive for a service which would be able to compete with
their current search engine. And Google in China would probably be way better
than the current one.

Of course it's kinda sad that Google would need to censor results, which kinda
conflicts with their missions - but apparently it's the law in China, and
every company there needs to follow the law.

Google is a business, and it would kinda be not rational to skip the business
they could make in China.

~~~
atomical
There are businesses that virtue signal their values. Patagonia just donated a
tax break ($10 million) to global warming groups.

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-28/patagonia...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-28/patagonia-
donates-10-million-trump-tax-savings-to-green-groups)

Should Patagonia fire their CEO? It's kind of outrageous that they aren't out
to make as much money as possible, right?

------
writepub
It's important for these voices to be heard. Despite a couple thousand
signatures on the other dissenting memo, there's no evidence that a majority
of Googlers are willing to actively vandalize/cannibalize revenues, while
Microsoft, Apple, Amazon etc. make all exceptions demanded by China, and
bolster their revenues, market-cap.

Dissenting Googlers need to understand that Google doesn't operate in a
vacuum, where rules apply differently for the rest of the market, and
dissenting Googlers get to guilt trip their patent company into leaving
billions on the table, for feelz

~~~
atomical
Tim Cook set the standard when he smiled and shook the hand of a dictator that
presides over the execution of homosexuals. In the future Google, Apple, and
Amazon can build software to help them identify and execute homosexuals.

The revenues will be incredible.

~~~
true_religion
If we feel this is incompatible with our values, I strongly think that
diplomacy and national level polciy is the place to take action. We cannot
leave it up to individual companies to dedide these actions, whilst at the
same time holding a national polciy that holds these countries as close
allies, and most favoured trading partners.

------
yters
I guess an argument to make in Dragonfly's favor is that if we leave it up to
the government an even more draconian solution will be given to the Chinese
people. Google offering their product gives them the opportunity to provide
more information access than the people would otherwise get. There is only so
much that can be censored, after all, and perhaps the massive information
access will overwhelm any possible attempt at censorship.

~~~
atomical
This argument is repeated over and over again as if Google is magical and the
Chinese government is incompetent.

Technogy does not create democracies and free societies. China's belt and road
project is going to create further economic freedom. Western values aren't
needed when you have job opportunities, can send your kids to great schools,
take a vacation, and buy a nice house.

~~~
yters
Where did China get the ability to do all those things?

------
tempodox
Where there's money to be made, nice words will be found to make it sound not-
completely-morally-corrupt.

------
2dum2live
>Just this week, a public memo written by current Google staff urged that
Dragonfly should be dropped because it “aids the powerful in oppressing the
vulnerable.” 20th century rhetoric aside, I can see no way to massively censor
the internet that will not be adopted shortly in its own flavor by every other
country hand wringing over the latest overblown 'social crisis'. ""...can't
you just make us a general purpose computer that runs all the programs, except
the ones that scare and anger us? Can't you just make us an Internet that
transmits any message over any protocol between any two points, unless it
upsets us?"" \- Cory Doctorow "Can't you make a search engine that will allow
access to any information located on the web, unless it's something naughty in
the eyes of the government?"

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kkarakk
i wonder what will happen first - china's panopticon draconian state being
adopted by everyone in the world or the chinese government being taken down by
a foreign state for "acting up" as they are wont to do.

~~~
atomical
China's belt and road project is going to project Chinese power and values
over Eurasia.

I'm sure a lot of companies,like Google, will want to help them do that in
exchange for some profits.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative)

~~~
kkarakk
maybe if china wins the next world war,doubtful otherwise

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sneak
How many of these low-level workers are receiving second paychecks from
national governments? We can be reasonably assured that at least some SREs
are; what about the anonymous purveyors of these sorts of letters?

I think people view this very much as an us-vs-them, but the “us” is easily
polluted with those quietly receiving additional compensation to further their
(second) employer’s interests.

~~~
writepub
Just empty accusations, and frankly insulting to anyone who disagrees with
dissenters. Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, etc. are all following China's data
policies, but when a bunch of Googlers want the same, you accuse them of
paybacks?

~~~
sneak
No, I am sure that there are at least a sprinkling of both US and foreign
intelligence assets within the ranks at Apple, Microsoft, and Amazon too. Why
wouldn’t there be?

