
In France, Comic Books Are Serious Business - agronaut
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/29/books/france-comic-books-angouleme.html
======
sametmax
BD are a perfect example of one the french biggest weakness : we have awesome
things, and we don't know how to sell them.

We do that all the time. The minitel. The credit card chips. Hell the TGV
should have been everywhere, and we struggle to sell it to a few countries.

We are a superpower with only 70 millions of people working a mere 35 hours a
week and so many occasions to skip work. That's damn impressive.

France could really shine more, technologically and culturally.

Did you know that the biggest (in term of sheer content mass, quality is more
subjective) Python blog is a french one ? I know, because I wrote it. 1k
articles, 700 being about python.

But it's like being french is a curse that forces you to do great things...
And let them stuck in france forever.

~~~
dhruvparamhans
I don't see why you say that french BD follow the same fate as some of the
other things you talk about.

From personal experience, growing up in India we always had either Astérix or
Tintin to read. Even some of the lesser known works such as those by Giroud
were available.

Now that I have been living and working in France for 6 years, one possible
reason for this lack of penetration of french products is the language. There
is very little effort to actually make the products accessible to the world at
large. Now we may discuss the merits and demerits of this but the fact remains
that if we want our products to be known all over the world, we have to make
it known to the world. And most of the world speaks English.

Mes deux centimes.

~~~
briandear
Except Tin Tin is Belgian..

~~~
dragandj
... and Rene Goscinny (the author of Asterix) was born in Poland...

~~~
wst_
He's born in Paris.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Goscinny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Goscinny)

~~~
sanbor
And lived in Argentina, Buenos Aires from the age of 2 to 18.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Goscinny#Early_life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Goscinny#Early_life)

------
thomasfl
The name "comic" is totally wrong. The french name "bande dessine" illustrates
better what it's all about. Take Pyongang by Guy Deslisle for instance. Since
no one is allowed to take photos in many places north Korera, he created a
"comic" book instead.

~~~
alex_duf
To be honest as a French, I don't mind everyone talking about "comics" when
referring to French and Belgian graphic novels.

It might not capture all the depth of what it really is but at least everyone
understands.

~~~
webmobdev
Do French and Belgian comics / comic artists share some relationship? (Or did
you just pull that out randomly because of "Asterix & Obelix" and Tintin? :).

~~~
m_t
Franco Belgian is a specific style. It's been a very close relationship
between France and Belgium: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-
Belgian_comics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Belgian_comics)

~~~
webmobdev
That's interesting! On a slight tangent - So did both Tintin and Asterix start
out as "strip comics" leading to their popularity?

~~~
m_t
I can't say for Astérix. For Hergé, the author of Tintin, he did start his
career by doing publication in newspapers:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herg%C3%A9#Totor_and_early_car...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herg%C3%A9#Totor_and_early_career:_1925%E2%80%9328)

It's quite interesting to observe then all the changes that happened between
the multiple publication of the same story: [https://tintinomania.com/tintin-
dans-ses-cases](https://tintinomania.com/tintin-dans-ses-cases)

------
Hoasi
> But in France, at least, comic books were taken seriously as an art form,
> Peeters said. “When I was a young author I came from a more literary world,”
> he said. “People said, ‘What are you doing with comics? You are a clever
> person. You should work with movies or literature.’ Now, nobody would say
> that.”

Contrast this with a petition initiated and signed by a collective of authors,
including Benoît Peeters:
[https://collectifartistesauteurs.tumblr.com/post/17004407655...](https://collectifartistesauteurs.tumblr.com/post/170044076551/la-
hausse-récente-de-la-csg-pour-lensemble-des)

Maybe the art form is _taken seriously_ , yet over half of the comic books,
authors cannot make a decent living off this profession in France today.

~~~
2ion
The golden age of Belgo-French comic artists and authors may have been
1960-1990, at least all my favourite series are from this time. They are
incredible to this day and always a pleasure to reread. Like Yoko Tsuno by
Leloup, Gaston by Franquin, Spirou & Fantasio (esp. the books my Tome and
Janry), Valerian and Veronique by Mézières and Christin, Asterix and Obelix,
and many more. I'm pretty content that for the length of my childhood, I could
read through an entire treasure trove of works that already existed, and wait
more the latest ones. Except for the Disney Duck universe, all the other
American comic books look very much subpar in quality in direct comparison,
regardless of whether in print or as movies, esp. the super hero ones.

Sad to see the industry turn this way.

~~~
pbalau
How could you miss Tintin?

~~~
2ion
We call it "Tim and Struppi" here. Never liked it very much. Though I also
forgot e.g. Lucky Luke which I liked very much. There are quite a lot good
series.

I'm trying to remember the name of one specific comic or series though: sci-fi
theme, floating city in space, many different races live there, there is an
elite humanoid alien race with blue skin and 6 eyes in 2 columns, with blue
blood wearing skin-tight shiny armor, with psycho-kinetic powers, human male
poses as one of them and kills a female alien possibly to steal her power,
steals also her space ship, IIRC a chase through the space city ensues.

Maybe somebody knows the book, I absolutely cannot remember if this is from
Valerian or something else, any hint would be grately appreciated. I think I
read it last 20 years ago. Text was in German. Typical Carlsen/Egmont comic
book format.

Edit: It's NOT Yoko Tsuno "City of the Banished Ones". Different series or
one-shot.

~~~
Darkstryder
French here. Your description reminds me a hell of a lot of Valerian and
Laureline "Sur les frontières" :
[https://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?field-
keywords=978220...](https://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?field-
keywords=9782205046656&tag=bedefr-21)

You should check it out.

(Not sure about the actual translated English title, but a literal translation
would be "On the frontiers")

Most Valerian comics are great by the way, and they all have been republished
recently, at least in France (and probably also US because of the -rather
disappointing- Besson's movie)

~~~
2ion
YES – that's exactly it, I remember the cover. Thanks!

------
C4stor
France regulates books prices very heavily (a.k.a it's a single price for
every single distribution point), meaning there's little to no interest buying
books online / at a mall (except convenience sometimes). In contrast, it
allows a dense network of specialized libraries to maybe not thrive, but at
least survive.

In turn, those libraries create events, participate to the cultural life of
their neighbourhoods, create social links.

In the end, it makes it very easy to find a book store, get good advice,
create links with sellers (I spend hours talking with the shopkeeper at my
comics place), and take an interest in the medium.

So it's not really a random singularity happening there, but also in part the
result of a very specific books policy. And of course, the cultural legacy is
also super strong !

~~~
billfruit
The appeal of buying books online is not just the price, but the available of
a larger catalogue. There is only so many titles a single physical bookshop
can stock and display.

~~~
C4stor
I understand that, but honestly, picking a comic among 10000 or 100000 titles
isn't really a different experience for me, in both cases the number is
"enough".

Having a knowledgeable shopkeeper to talk with on the other hand is really a
fantastic experience for me !

~~~
wenc
> Having a knowledgeable shopkeeper to talk with on the other hand is really a
> fantastic experience for me !

This is a fairly rare experience for bookstores in some of the U.S.
geographies I've lived in.

The shopkeepers I encounter aren't widely-read or intellectuals. They're
either college students working at slightly above minimum wage to pay for
school, or ex-hippies with lots of used books in their garage who figured they
could make some money selling them. They have no sense of the intellectual
pulse of today (they don't know what ideas are popular), don't have a good
mental semantic tree of authors and their works, and worst of all, aren't
readers themselves. I don't expect bookstore owners to have the omnivorous
interests and breadth of Tyler Cowen, but they should at least have
intellectual curiosity and a love of books.

The only exceptions are bookstores near great universities, where the owners
tend to be stragglers who loved their university town so much that they
stayed. They're usually former English lit, philosophy or other humanities
majors who continue to read widely. You can tell a bookstore is good by the
quality of their curation -- really good bookstores understand space is a
premium and don't stock junk.

That said, you also need someone with a mind for business. Unfortunately this
confluence of skills doesn't occur regularly so we live with what we have.

~~~
adamsea
What geographies?

~~~
wenc
Don't want to be too specific, but let's say rust belt cities with no top
ranked colleges.

------
satysin
I moved from the UK to France last summer (yes due to Brexit before you ask)
and they do indeed take comic book and related things _very_ seriously.

You are never far from a place selling comic books, graphic novels, trading
card games, action figures and such.

Another thing I find _different_ to what I am used to is how they all still
buy DVDs and Blurays. Not just the odd one here and there but regularly and
have a pretty impressive collection. What I find interesting is that they have
_good_ internet here. I got 1Gbit fibre with a whole host of extra (TV
package, landline, SIM with 50GB data) for €55/month. And it has been perfect
since I got it installed a few months back. I would have thought with such
fantastic internet access they would all be using streaming services but nope
they love their physical discs!

Edit: And not just movies but full TV show boxsets. Those are like €100-200 !!

I sat down to work out the value difference between a few streaming sites and
how much they pay for physical media and streaming is _way_ cheaper as DVDs
and Blurays are _not_ cheap! I know you can sell it on but it seems nobody
does. They are often given away! It is quite alien to me.

~~~
seszett
Well, the difference is when you buy a DVD, you actually _have_ it, you know
you can keep it, watch it, give it to friends or family whenever you want.

So for your run-of-the-mill blockbuster streaming is fine, but for a movie you
really like, nothing beats owning it.

I discovered music listening to my parents' vinyl records, now if they had
only listened to radio, what kind of cultural legacy could have they passed
on? Their music would have "vanished" by the time I was there, and that's what
would happen to my music and movies as well if I only used steaming services.

Streaming is like the fast-food of media, it allows easy consumption of
unremarkable content but it doesn't seem fit for remembering pieces of art.

~~~
ggregoire
Sorry but there is nothing noble or superior about buying and keeping DVDs.
That’s just materialism.

I had a collection of 100 Blurays a few years ago. Eventually I sold
everything when I realized that owning pieces of plastic that get dust on a
shelf didn't bring me any joy. I enjoy movies at the theater or on Netflix as
much as movies on physical support.

And movies are not going to "vanish" if you stop buying physical copies of
them on Amazon. Conserving movies is the job of film archives. You probably
have one in your country that offer screenings of old movies. Or
arty/independent theaters that offer the same kind of content.

~~~
seszett
Of course it is materialism.

There is a big difference between having something physically available, and
knowing you could have it if you wanted. The first one is preferable to many
people.

Things don't have to bring you joy at every instant you own them, that's cheap
philosophy used as marketing for selling books. Things can also be useful for
the future

------
probably_wrong
> Rumiko Takahashi won the Grand Prix, the festival’s lifetime achievement
> award. Takahashi began publishing manga comics in 1978 and her books,
> including “Inuyasha”, (...)

Interesting choice by the NYT. In my corner of the world, she was well known
for writing "Ranma 1/2", while "Inuyasha" flew pretty much under the radar.
I'm assuming it must have been the other way around in the US.

~~~
mikekchar
Ranma 1/2 is probably technically child porn in the US. Do they sell it there?
Even Inuyasha has a full nude picture of 14 year old of Kagome in the first
book. I was going to send the Japanese version to my niece in Canada (I live
in Japan) and quickly scanned it first to be sure...

It's funny though, Rumiko Takahashi is probably my favourite mangaka (all of
her manga was easy enough for me to read when I was first learning Japanese).
But when I mentioned her to my wife, the first thing that came to her mind was
Urusai Yatsura, which I had never heard of :-) She's written a _lot_ of
popular manga!

~~~
yardie
Ranma 1/2 was available in the US for a long time at book and music stores.
Not sure if that is still the case. Most of those stores are shuttered. Manga
then wasn’t nearly as popular as it is now.

~~~
samspot
There was also a NA release of a SNES game, so it was popular enough
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranma_%C2%BD:_Hard_Battle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranma_%C2%BD:_Hard_Battle)

------
babayega2
French, and Belgian. I have a big collection of French comics I enjoyed in my
childhood and other new ones.

~~~
ivanhoe
And Italian, don't forget Italy... Hugo Pratt's Corto Maltese, Milo Manara,
Paolo Eleuteri Serpieri, and less known in the West Luciano Secchi aka Max
Bunker with his Alan Ford... even Sergio Bonelli's pulp book comics are
actually great...

~~~
eih
> even Sergio Bonelli's pulp book comics are actually great

I am from Turkey. I learned reading and writing before my school age, with the
help of graphic novels. Me and many people I know, literally grew up with
different Bonelli series. A great number of graphic novelists and artists from
Turkey would easily refer to them as "inspiration" or "reason" to start
drawing/writing. Zagor, Mister No, Tex and Martin Mystere (or with its Turkish
printing title Atlantis) has been really popular, and in more recent years we
had the chance to read Julia, Dylan Dog, Nathan Never, La Storia and many
other one shot series from Bonelli.

I believe, until the mid-1990s, when you mentioned the term comic (or "çizgi
roman", meaning graphic/drawn/illustrated novel), people would come up with
those titles rather than Spider Man, or Batman. They have been available along
with Italian titles but for a very long time, they were never as popular and
widespread.

I am not sure about the usage of term "pulp" (mostly due to English not being
my native language), but I'd consider those titles as important and serious as
big auteurs' (Pratt, Manara etc...) creations.

~~~
ivanhoe
Oh yeah, I had a very similar childhood story growing up in old Yugoslavia, I
loved Mister No and Martin Mystere. It's really strange how Bonelli's comics
got super popular in Balkans and Turkey, but are much less known in the rest
of Europe. Also Max Bunker's Alan Ford has a cult status in Balkans, it's
probably the best known and the most quoted comic book in a popular culture
here, but no one heard of it pretty much anywhere outside ex-Yugoslavia
region.

~~~
eih
You are right. When I visited Serbia, I bought some locally printed copies of
Bonelli titles, along with some other great artists' works printed in Serbian.
I am not sure about the other ex-Yugoslav countries, but I can easily say that
Turkish and Serbian comic/graphic novel readers have a very similar taste.

------
AdmiralAsshat
Unrelated: Why the hell is it so hard to find somewhere in the US that sells
an Arzach tradeback? It's the most famous work by arguably one of France's
most famous comic books artists, and it's almost impossible to find outside of
France.

I saw it once at a Virgin Records store in Beirut, Lebanon, and I'm kicking
myself that I didn't grab it then.

~~~
cgh
It is time for me to brag: I have all of the Moebius books that were released
in English by Marvel's Epic imprint in the '80s (Arzach, The Gardens of
Aedena, The Airtight Garage, The Incal, Blueberry, and several others).

But you are right: all of Moebius's stuff needs to be properly released again,
and digitally as well. It's crazy that such a massively influential figure not
just in comics but all of pop culture is virtually unknown in the English
world these days.

------
soapdog
I grew up in Brazil reading French/Belgian comics. Recently, as an adult, I
decided to learn French just to enjoy all the BDs which are never translated
into other languages I know. People looked funny at me (and with a bit of
pity) when I said I wanted to learn a language to enjoy comics but to me, it
is just a medium and the France/Belgium ecosystem around BD is fascinating.
Sometimes I dream of moving from IT to work on something BD related... Those
books are very good.

~~~
cgh
If you want to work on something, then make it English translations. There is
still recent work by major figures like eg Enki Bilal that is still
unavailable in English. And all of the Moebius material needs to be re-
released.

------
Fnoord
My childhood favourites were Buck Danny, Tin Tin (Kuifje)

~~~
2ion
> Buck Danny

Now that is a title I haven't heard mentioned in a long time.

~~~
crocal
I wonder how many Americans know about Buck Danny. This is after all a 50
years old Belgian graphic novel starring a US Navy pilot! « Fire from the sky
» trilogy by Charlier and Bergese is unbelievably cool.

------
jsemrau
French artists have influenced modern culture through their artwork
intensively. I would even say without Valerian and Laureline [1]. Star Wars
and many other science fiction movies would not exist.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val%C3%A9rian_and_Laureline#Le...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val%C3%A9rian_and_Laureline#Legacy)

------
dragandj
For those interested in the breadth of BD titles, there is the great
[https://www.bedetheque.com/](https://www.bedetheque.com/) "French comics
wikipedia".

There are literally (tens of?) thousands series and characters. Usually
printed in color hardcovers.

EDIT: I've checked. They have 49.000 series there!

------
elcomet
In France, I often hear comic books (bande dessinées) refered as "Le 9ème
art", ie the 9th art.

It is taken quite seriously, and we have some wonderful authors.

------
scotty79
> “The market has risen from 700 books per year in the 1990s to 5,000 this
> year,” he said in an interview. “I don’t know any cultural industry which
> has had that kind of increase.”

Games. Unless he doesn't consider games a cultural industry.

------
baby
What I don't understand, is why french BD is losing to comics around the
world, both on paper and on the screen, when it has way more diversity. What
was the last movie made out of a BD? Valerian? :(

~~~
sametmax
Yeah and it's a so so BD. I mean if you want space, go for sillage, the meta
baron, l'incal or belthegueuse (jodorowski and leo are not french born, but
the bd are born in france).

~~~
baby
I like Lanfeust des etoiles :]

(Warning: there are some nsfw ads)

* sillage (wake): [https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wake/Issue-1?id=125469](https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wake/Issue-1?id=125469)

* meta-barron: [https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/META-BARON/Issue-1?id=93964](https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/META-BARON/Issue-1?id=93964)

* incal: [https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Incal/TPB-1?id=77077](https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Incal/TPB-1?id=77077)

* beltegeuse: [https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Betelgeuse/Issue-1?id=10011...](https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Betelgeuse/Issue-1?id=100113)

------
_pmf_
Does the NYT really have to turn every headline into a bad pun?

~~~
klmr
_Have to_? No. But it’s kind of a sport amongst copy editors. Some of the good
reputation of _The Economist_ stems from the fact that they elevated puns (not
only in titles) to an art form.

