
Doc Martens’s vegan boot business is thriving - howard941
https://qz.com/quartzy/1686773/doc-martenss-vegan-boot-business-is-thriving/
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arbuge
Meanwhile it appears that leather is piling up unused:

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-09/america-s...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-09/america-
s-obsession-with-beef-is-killing-the-leather-industry)

The cows are still being slaughtered for their beef, which appears to be
profitable enough for the practice to carry on even if the leather hides are
now just dumped on landfills:

"Cattle hides, an obligatory byproduct of beef and dairy consumption, will be
around as long as Americans like cheeseburgers, steaks and ice cream. And
while dairy producers have been under pressure from declining milk demand and
dairy alternatives, the rise of meat substitutes has yet to dent America’s
taste for the real thing."

The implication would seem to be that products like these boots might have
less environmental benefits than one might think.

~~~
kibwen
But this is an expected consequence of any attempt to reduce demand for farmed
cattle. It isn't feasible for consumers to reduce demand for all cattle
products in perfect lockstep.

Consider an alternative scenario: demand for beef falls, but demand for
leather doesn't. In that case the price of beef would plummet, and stock would
pile up and eventually spoil, but the supply of cows continues unabated
because of the existing leather demand.

In both the real and hypothetical cases, the reduced demand for one material
should result in an increased price for the other material, since the price of
producing a cow is independent of the sale price of its byproducts. This would
eventually reduce demand of the popular product (to a degree depending on how
elastic its demand is), which eventually reduces supply of cattle all on its
own, which--in the case of people who already avoid meat _but_ are now
additionally avoiding leather, thanks to popularized alternatives--was the
original intended objective.

[Disclaimer: I eat meat and am wearing leather right this very moment, but
I've been slowly reducing my demand for each for a few years now.]

~~~
cortesoft
I mean, it depends on ratio of usage.... this is kinda like optimizations in
programming. It might be the case that as you optimize one thing, a new thing
becomes the bottleneck... but it also might be the case that the one, current,
bottleneck is such an outlier that it is STILL the bottleneck, no matter how
much you optimize.

It could be the case that leather usage is such a small fraction compared to
beef that even if you reduce beef consumption 90%, you still have excess cow
hides.

I don't know the actual numbers, but your scenario won't always be the case is
my point.

~~~
kibwen
Indeed, if there's a name for Amdahl's Law but generalized to bottlenecks in
general then it would be in play here. Having real numbers would allow us to
better understand the potential benefits (or lack thereof), although I think
in this case it's profit that we specifically want to measure, rather than
usage or popularity (since, after all, as long as profit is non-negative then
it shouldn't result in unsellable/wasted product).

------
codemac
Also note that Doc Marten's are reasonably priced compared to many Vegan
shoe/boot leather alternatives that are socially acceptable.

If you have $500 to spend on boots, it's probably easy enough to find whatever
you want. If you have $100-$200, doc martens pull away quickly for the vegan
crowd.

~~~
cannonedhamster
Yeah there's a lot of garbage vegan clothing out there. Good shoes typically
set you back a few hundred unless you can get them on sale. Novacas is a great
brand but you can only find them at resellers really Mooshoes has a pretty
good selection but they are definitely going to be higher end shoes. Totally I
find myself looking for the all man made materials on the label

~~~
demygale
Wills Vegan Shoes is good, but not inexpensive.

------
rootusrootus
Was it Tesla that started this trend? Re-branding pleather as "vegan leather"
is brilliant marketing.

~~~
ticmasta
no kidding - anyone truly surprised that their plastic boots sold at a vegan
premium are very profitable?

------
pessimizer
The favorite pair of shoes I ever owned in my life were a pair of Doc oxfords
with light-brown _hemp_ uppers, I tried to locate a pair years later only to
find out that they were a limited production run in the early 90s. A new run
would make a good marketing pairing with the pleathers; they both have that
granola/crunchy feel, and pot's gone mainstream now. I'd love to own a pair
again.

------
galago
Synthetic materials also make automation easier. I wonder if leather handling
is one of the most expensive parts of shoe manufacturing. I've suspected
that's why Nike (and probably other companies as well) seem to have fewer and
fewer shoes with leather components.

~~~
saidajigumi
There's another facet to this. Some athletic shoes have recently started using
advanced "3D" knitting machines for the uppers. With traditional shoe making,
there's waste when cutting the components of the upper from a sheet of
material. But a knitted upper has essentially zero waste material, because
it's created to the precise target shape.

I.e. it's an additive manufacturing process like a 3D printer rather than a
subtractive process.

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sarcher
I looked at Doc Martens a long time ago (a decade+) when I was looking for
steel-toe non-leather work boots, but none of the vegan Doc Martens boots have
steel/composite toe protection. I just checked again, and I think that's still
the case.

I've been rocking Bogs Turf Stompers for the last five years or so, but
they've been discontinued I think (at least the steel toe version has been).

Anyone else have good luck with non-leather steel/composite toe lace up
workboots?

~~~
rebuilder
I had Vegetarian Shoes boots once, wore them almost daily for 10 years. Solid
boots. At the time, they had Doc Martens as well, I was under the impression
they had licensed the brand and model.

Here [https://www.vegetarian-
shoes.co.uk/unisex/airseal_10_eye_boo...](https://www.vegetarian-
shoes.co.uk/unisex/airseal_10_eye_boot_smooth_black/17955_p.html)

~~~
wUabkSG6L5Bfa5
Wearing them as I type, have been for at least 10 years, will likely wear them
til I die.

------
harimau777
Slightly off topic, but are there any "vegan leathers" that replicate the
properties of leather (durability, strength, toughness, breathability, etc.)
rather than just the appearance?

~~~
chrisseaton
The great thing about leather is when the surface gets trashed you can polish
it again and it’s as good as new. You can wear a pair of boots for weeks in
the mountains and then polish again to a mirror finish (meaning perfectly
waterproof.) With all synthetic leathers there’s some kind of surface which
once it’s broken that’s it it’s ruined and there’s no way to repair and they
need to be thrown away.

Ask anyone who's ever tried to get way with plastic 'patent leather' boots and
regretted it with the first scratch they get!

------
Animats
For small values of "thriving". "Its vegan line, first launched in 2011, rose
to 5% of its global footwear sales in its fiscal year ended March 31."

------
jason_slack
I owned my first pair of Doc Martens when I was 15. I was in high school and
saw that Eric Clapton wore a pair and I just loved the look. Now, 42, I own
dozens of pairs of Docs and I still have the original ones from when I was 15.

I own Vegan Docs and I love them. Every bit as good as the leather versions.
However, I thought I was helping save cows but it turns out they are dying
anyway. Sad.

------
olivermarks
I have a pair of 1980's made in UK leather Doc Martens that I just recently
realized are valuable. They've been made in China since 2002 and the quality
isn't great. I'd be wary of 'vegan' meaning el cheapo uppers materials to save
money

~~~
Lio
When DMs were originally made in the UK the work was contracted out.

The company that originally made them for Doctor Martins now sells direct
under the name Solavair [1] made in the same original factory.

I have no connection to the company but I have a pair of their monkey boots
and they’re great.

Oh and I _think_ they might make DMs “made in the UK” specials but I’m not
100% on that.

1\. [https://www.nps-solovair.com/](https://www.nps-solovair.com/)

~~~
snapetom
That's great information, thank you. And they have a vegan model!

------
devoply
Pleather has been around forever, as an inferior product that does not last
nearly as long. Let's call it vegan for a win.

also: [https://www.vocativ.com/281599/vegan-leather-isnt-as-
ethical...](https://www.vocativ.com/281599/vegan-leather-isnt-as-ethical-as-
you-think/)

~~~
ppseafield
Re: your link, I agree that we would do well to find better ways to produce
non-animal-sourced clothing that doesn't produce the number of pollutants some
of our current options do.

But I take issue with this quote:

> The holy grail of sustainability is a closed-loop system. “With leather,
> nature has created its own sort of closed-loop system,” says Hustvedt. “The
> carcass of an animal can decay in the ground and nurture plants that are
> eaten by the next generation of animal.”

Yes, and that's great for the environment if you look past all of the
environmental harm created by raising the animals needed for that leather. But
CO2 and methane production, deforestation, runoff from factory farms... all of
these consequences take a serious toll on the environment.

There are a lot of bad choices for clothing - cotton is notorious for
requiring a lot of pesticides to grow as well. And that many clothes are made
in sweatshops in poorer countries, not uncommonly made with child labor. And
it's all shipped across the ocean using fossil fuels.

It doesn't have to be this way though.

~~~
beatgammit
The question is, are these animals being grown for food or leather? Afaik,
leather is mostly a byproduct of the beef industry, and if it's not used it'll
just go to waste. I could maybe agree that buying leather is a bad net choice
_if_ beef was the byproduct, but until I see that, I have no qualms about
buying leather products, especially since they last longer than synthetic
versions.

~~~
ppseafield
Even if 0% of livestock was raised specifically for their hides, we have to
globally reduce our animal consumption to stave off climate change as much as
possible.

It's not just a simple "Oh, it's a byproduct." It's a byproduct of an industry
that is seriously contributing to climate change.

And market interest in non-leather clothing will drive companies to make
better non-leather clothing.

