
US Rules Airlines Must Allow Miniature Horses to Fly as Service Animals - clouddrover
https://www.thedrive.com/news/29332/us-dept-of-transportation-rules-airlines-must-allow-miniature-horses-as-service-animals
======
jedberg
I understand some people need emotional support animals and service animals. I
get that. But it poses an interesting problem. If you call an airline and tell
them you have a peanut allergy, they’ll remove all peanuts from the plane.

But if you tell them you have a dog allergy, they’ll tell you that other
persons right to their service animal trumps your allergy.

~~~
ElonMuskrat
Dog allergies generally don't kill people.

~~~
murph-almighty
I'm allergic to cats to the point that when I was an infant they didn't have a
number on their scale to quantify it. When I'm exposed to cats, my eyes run
and swell shut, my skin gets itchy, but above all that my asthma goes well
into problem territory. I imagine there are people allergic to dogs in a
similar way, and being in an enclosed space with a dog for multiple hours may,
in fact, be a threat to their life.

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a-wu
I have no problems with this as a physically disabled person in the process of
getting a service dog. Miniature horses are recognized service animals by the
ADA as long as they are house broken, can be controlled by the owner, and the
facility can accommodate the animal’s size without compromising safety. My
only concern would be that last point, if the animal’s size puts people at
risk of not accessing the emergency exits then I think airlines are well
within their right to remove the animal.

I do have problems with the people who get fake certifications for their
“service” animals to bring them on board. Service animals are highly trained
and these fake service animals really give true service animals a bad look.

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CydeWeys
I'm sick and tired of the increasingly rampant abuse of the "service animal"
category for people to bring their pets along with them wherever.

I don't want to deal with a dog next to me for an entire flight and I sure as
hell don't want to deal with a fucking horse.

Most of the animals I see flying are clearly just pets and not actual service
animals, going on how poorly behaved they are.

~~~
wil421
Yea I’ve see people slap fake service vests on dogs. They will yell at you and
tell you that you can’t legally ask them if they are disabled. Also seen
people in apartments get letters from therapists when they have large or
aggressive breeds that aren’t allowed.

The other day I was in a coffee shop. They asked someone to remove her dog and
she started a fit about how it’s her service animal. I laughed pretty hard and
got a mean look. They went outside to sit and I doubt her tea cup chihuahua
was a trained service animal.

~~~
CydeWeys
"They will yell at you and tell you that you can’t legally ask them if they
are disabled."

This isn't true, by the way. Businesses aren't allowed to verify the
legitimacy of a service animal because that's seen as discrimination, which is
most of the problem in itself as it allows any random person to buy a $10 vest
from Amazon and use it as a "bring animal everywhere free" card.

But there's nothing prohibiting random people like you or me from questioning
the legitimacy of a service animal, and if someone gets super defensive about
that question, odds are good that it is indeed a fake service animal.

~~~
formercoder
In what way is verifying the service animal is legitimate discrimination by
any metric? Said person has already announced their disability by bringing the
animal, the business is clearly willing to serve them, I don’t see a remote
argument to the contrary.

~~~
wahern
> (6) Inquiries. A public accommodation shall not ask about the nature or
> extent of a person's disability, but may make two inquiries to determine
> whether an animal qualifies as a service animal. A public accommodation may
> ask if the animal is required because of a disability and what work or task
> the animal has been trained to perform. A public accommodation shall not
> require documentation, such as proof that the animal has been certified,
> trained, or licensed as a service animal. Generally, a public accommodation
> may not make these inquiries about a service animal when it is readily
> apparent that an animal is trained to do work or perform tasks for an
> individual with a disability (e.g., the dog is observed guiding an
> individual who is blind or has low vision, pulling a person's wheelchair, or
> providing assistance with stability or balance to an individual with an
> observable mobility disability).

28 CFR § 36.302(c)(6)
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/36.302](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/36.302)

~~~
microcolonel
Seems to me that there should be a corresponding responsibility not to
knowingly misrepresent an animal as a service animal. Seems like something
that should be criminal, to me.

~~~
wahern
28 CFR § 36.302(f)(8) says,

> Investigation of fraud. A public accommodation may investigate the potential
> misuse of accessible seating where there is good cause to believe that such
> seating has been purchased fraudulently.

I don't know if there are any remedies available beyond civil tort and
contract money damages, nor what the applicable criminal statute would be, if
any. Seems like a complex area of law, but from reading bits of legal
commentary dredged up with Google I get the impression that the government is
deliberately erring on the side of reducing friction for the legitimately
disabled and are well aware of the unintended consequence of increased fraud.

~~~
bredren
This happens in the concert scene. I was in a fan community where there was a
spill of drama over someone feigned a disablement to get disabled seating
tickets. They were outed and it was messy.

------
ngngngng
I'm also tired of how easy it is to abuse these regulations. I own rental
properties that don't allow pets. A surprising number of tenants will get a
pet anyways, then when they are caught, a week later they've got some papers
they printed off some site claiming that it's a therapy great dane. I would
have been happy in most cases to just charge a pet fee, but once they break
out the paperwork, there are only 2 options, evict them, or ignore it.

~~~
delinka
_Can_ you evict them? Can they claim protection under ADA?

~~~
ngngngng
Yes, Their service dog can't be disturbing my other tenants, and that's always
how they get caught. We get reports of dogs barking 24/7\. It doesn't matter
what legal status their pet has if it's causing a disturbance.

If the dog is perfectly well behaved, then I would absolutely be breaking the
law if I evicted them for it.

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ravenstine
It's kind of disturbing that we've got 7+ billion human beings but we're so
disconnected from each other that people are increasingly resorting to animals
for comfort and friendship.

~~~
moate
eh?

This isn't a new thing. There have always been people who prefer the company
of animals to people, even centuries ago when people were more "connected to
each other". If it's more frequently seen now, you can just as easily
attribute that to there now being 7+ billion people, so if X% of the
population prefers animals to people, X will be a greater number as the
population increases.

Some people just don't like people. That's fine.

~~~
avian
The new thing might be that some people who would otherwise prefer the company
of people over animals can't get it and settle for a pet instead. Articles on
the "loneliness epidemic" get posted quite frequently on HN:

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=loneliness](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=loneliness)

------
utf985
I find the concept of pets on flights really bewildering. Is this entirely an
american thing, because I fly relatively often and I have never seen anyone
bring an animal on a plane. We don't let pets in a vast majority of indoor
venues, so why should planes be an exception? I just think bringing a "comfort
pet" on a flight is very childish and extremely inconsiderate not only to the
rest of the passengers on the plane but to the animal itself as well. I've
even seen videos of people with dog allergies getting kicked out of a flight
because of a person with a comfort dog, which to me is beyond absurd.

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lazyasciiart
This isn't terribly surprising, given that dogs and miniature horses are the
two explicitly named special vies of service animal in the ADA.

What you really want to look out for is the state-by-state definitions, like
wolves in (I think) Montana.

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mywacaday
You have to stow your bags but 100+ pounds of animal can go loosely
restrained. Who's liable if I get hit by one of these in turbulence?

~~~
4ntonius8lock
The whole idea is so insane... it's mind blowing.

The animal doesn't fit underneath the seat. It's clearly taking up leg room of
the passengers next to it.

I understand making accommodations for people with disabilities. But there's a
trend in this country:

Group A has X problem. Group A proposes a solution that violates Group B's
life and liberty. Group B complains. Everyone gets angry at Group B, because
'how else could Group A get a solution'. The answer is simple: It's not Group
B's problem.

Why people think their problem (emotional support needs) should be my problem
(100 pounds of animal falling on me, having it invade my space or the need to
breath air which many people can't if it has animal hair)

I'm truly wandering if this isn't a case of some news organization believing
an onion article. It really seems like a picture from an onion article.

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mtmail
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guide_horse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guide_horse)
seems quite sensible, apart from the size of the animal.

~~~
sabujp
can these horses be trained not to poop and pee indiscriminately?

~~~
Retric
Horse diapers (manure catcher) seem like the obvious solution here.

~~~
dev_dull
Nothing like flying next to a horse with a diaper that’s been filling up for
the past two hours.

~~~
gambiting
Herbivore poop doesn't stink anywhere near as bad as omnivore/carnivore poop -
yes horse/cow poop stinks, but so little compared to cat/dog poop it doesn't
even register on a scale.

~~~
dev_dull
Sounds like you'd gladly switch seats with me on a 4 hour flight next to a
horse.

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Svoka
Unpopular opinion: real problem here is unreasonable restrictions on taking
pet animals with you. In US it's a particular problem, because you can't make
rules based on judgments on the spot. Allow pets in restaurants/planes, people
would sue because you denied them service because pet peed all over the place
or owner can't control their pet.

So, here we have blank prohibition on any pet anywhere, which is, IMO, worse
than service ponies on a plane.

------
mykowebhn
Maybe the issue is not really about allowing animals to fly as service
animals, but allowing animals to fly simply as passengers. Why can't I pay for
a seat for my pet?

I also understand people's frustrations with unruly pets on planes, but
frankly I don't remember ever seeing this. I've only ever seen well-behaved
pets on planes. I do remember numerous unruly children on planes, though.

~~~
4ntonius8lock
> Why can't I pay for a seat for my pet?

You can. Rent a private jet with a bunch of other exotic pet owners.

Or form an airline with this intent.

But for the love of everything that is holy, please don't sit next to me in a
cramped tin can for 6 hours with your horse's behind in my face.

This is public transportation.

I can tolerate a small emotional support animal that fits in a container that
will fit under your seat at take off or landing. That seems like a reasonable
compromise. Larger animals can go underneath if they fit, or not join what is
essential, a flying bus.

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Simulacra
This is getting ridiculous.

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kmlx
i was amazed at the number of pets i saw on internal US flights. i still
remember this one flight with at least 20 dogs/cats. as a european, i simply
couldn’t believe it. saw like 2 pets in total after 100+ flights in europe.
saw 0 pets while flying in asia.

not sure if this is a US thing, or if there were 0 pets in general except for
the flights i took.

~~~
mykowebhn
Conversely, pets are allowed in many restaurants in Europe, but not in the US.

~~~
guitarbill
is this true? if it is, i've never seen it happen in my entire life.

~~~
mping
It's true, I've seen it but it's quite uncommon.

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correlator
We still have a ways to go [https://www.thedrive.com/news/18135/united-
airlines-refuses-...](https://www.thedrive.com/news/18135/united-airlines-
refuses-to-let-woman-fly-with-emotional-support-animal-peacock)

------
nytesky
I believe horses temperament is already calmer than dogs by nature, and they
make good service animals. They are also too small to ride and are unlikely to
be pets; the horse are actually helpful.

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golemotron
How do airlines handle the situation of people with life-threatening pet
allergies being seated near people with service animals?

~~~
crazygringo
From a quick Google search, there doesn't appear to be medical evidence of any
life-threatening allergies to pets like dogs.

That also apparently hasn't stopped people from _claiming_ they have one,
however.

~~~
egwynn
I also did some googling and reached broadly the same conclusion as you.
However I don’t know that I’d use the word " _any_ ”. It sounds like life-
threatening animal allergies are, at the very least, much rarer than life-
threatening food / medicine allergies. Though I wasn’t super satisfied with
any of the sources I found, so I’d love to see some data about it.

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SHAKEDECADE
Well, that’s a horse of a different color..

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asatterfield54
Next big startup - SAaaS: Service Animal As A Service. Do letters for people,
tiered pricing based on animal size.

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yk
> You should also know that the guidance only allows airlines to specifically
> ban snakes [..] from the cabin.

Obvious joke left as an exercise to the reader.

~~~
moate
_Enough is enough!_ I've had it with these motherfucking off-topic comments in
this motherfucking place of high discourse!

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sova
Airplanes have replaced old-school wooden ships as the main means of
transportation so before you complain about sitting next to a miniature horsie
for 14 hours, remember, it could have been 6 months.

