
Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug - chriskanan
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312201647.htm
======
exelius
As someone on the spectrum, I don’t necessarily know if this is something I
would want. My ASD is a big part of my personality; if these social
“difficulties” (which really just mean I click with a different type of
person) were “solved” I don’t know I would be the same person.

Maybe this can offer some hope for others with more profound issues, but if
you’ve found a way to function in society I’m not sure this will be very
attractive outside a “let me try and see what it feels like” scenario.

~~~
Waterluvian
I have ADHD. Drugs like ritalin never "fixed" me. They basically allowed me an
exchange: give up the charisma, personality, sociability, and appetite for 8
hours of being able to focus on something. I won't write an essay here but
trust me that the two versions of me were day and night and both had
significant benefits and challenges. I _really_ struggled growing up.

By the time I got to college I learned to use the drugs as a switch I could
flip when I needed the focused version of me.

Not that ADHD and ASD can be compared, but I wonder if maybe ASD treatments
could offer that option. Ie. Not to "fix" you but to give you a tool to be
wielded under your own control.

~~~
tomcooks
Side question for my research: Have you tried hiking for more than 10
consecutive days, possibly without carrying tech with you?

~~~
mercer
As someone with ASD and the plan to do just that, I like where I think you
might be going with this...

------
Jugglerofworlds
HDAC inhibitors have been discussed before on /r/nootropics and Longecity. I
was part of a group buy for Vorinostat, which is a medication with a similar
mechanism of action. I only took it once and had a positive experience where I
felt very "child-like", in the way that the world seemed vivid and exciting. I
haven't taken it since due to concerns about interactions with some of my
other medications.

The primary goal of many of the people in the group buy were fear extinction
and memory enhancement. I haven't seen much discussion on it since the initial
excitement.

Here are the relevant threads:

[http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/90632-hdac-
inhibition-m...](http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/90632-hdac-inhibition-
main-discussion-memory-enhancement-fear-extinction-addictive-behavior-
cessation-and-more/)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/596gbi/i_wrote_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/596gbi/i_wrote_an_article_on_hdac_inhibitors_geared/)

~~~
starpilot
Vorinostat was amazing to me as well in a similar way. I seemed to quickly
develop a tolerance for it though, and I'm scared of increasing the amount
beyond that. I heard that you couldn't build a tolerance for but that didn't
seem to be true in my case.

------
asdfasdfdavid
Another HDAC inhibitor that works against autism and is easy to obtain by
eating broccoli sprouts is sulforaphane:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5672987/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5672987/)

~~~
taurath
So little research is done on Autism from the perspective of adults living on
the spectrum - almost all the funding and research seems to go towards
childhood and to give parents coping mechanisms.

IMO we need clear clinical definitions of different parts of the spectrum so
we can have more intelligent conversations about it - is a study cohort
involving 10 year olds ones who cannot clothe themselves or participate in
regular school activities, or ones which have some social reading deficits but
can still participate? Its always very difficult to tell.

~~~
rocqua
Does it really make sense to partition the spectrum? It feels more reasonable
to replace these exact partitions with something like 'prototypes'.

The partitions would make sense if each partition corresponded to a specific
physical 'defect'. Such that it actually makes sense to treat everyone in that
partition the same. This is why we distinguish diabetes Type 1 from diabetes
type 2. This is why we distinguish between the flu and tuberculosis.

But if autism is indeed a spectrum, and people are spread quite evenly over
the spectrum, the partitioning stops making sense. Quite dangerously, it
suggests that all people in that partition have 'the same problem', thus
research and treatment would treat that partition as the same. If this is not
the underlying reality this really hinders effective treatment.

Consider how effective general medicine would be if we considered fever to be
a spectrum, and treated based on what interval someones temperature fell in.
That would be a disaster. Expanding such a system by including more variables
(how sweaty is the patient, do they shiver) or by controlling for more
confounding variables (compensating for the circadian rhythm) does not help
either.

~~~
BadCookie
Autism can't be described along a single dimension like temperature can be.
Some people with autism are sensory-seeking, some are sensory-avoiding, some
are a mix of both. Some act almost immune to pain, while others definitely
aren't. Some have no sense of danger, while others are overly cautious and
afraid. Some are violent, but most aren't. Some never speak, but most do. Some
run wild, while others are rule-followers almost to a fault. My son is newly-
diagnosed, and I am constantly surprised by how little he has in common with
other kids who share his diagnosis. Do all of these kids actually have the
same condition? I don't think we really know the answer to that question yet.

~~~
kolinko
It's definitely not the same condition - like in most cases in psychiatry.

Unlike in medicine, when you can often classify problems by their pinpointed
sources (e.g. a virus/bacteria), in psychiatry it's usually a set of genes and
other factors that comes into play, and various subsystems that broke down
giving a certain outcome.

We group psychiatric disorders the way we do it, because the science for
distinguishing the sources of disorders isn't good enough yet to have a better
system.

It's similar to the taxonomy of plant&animal species before the advent of
genetics. We had to group them by the way they looked, not by their real
relationships.

------
damm
Mostly parents will be into this. No one would do this to themselves as they
will have similar feelings as most (they don't want to give up who they are).

Wether being on the spectrum has been good or bad for you; it is you.

However parents are really great here; they really don't give a crap about
their kids feelings they just want the _best_ for him.

> What I mean is they don't want to be embarrassed by their child.

I know this for a fact ... I used to think my mother was trying to get me all
the help in the world but no she wanted a normal child at all costs.

~~~
mickronome
I have ADD with autistic traits, and let me tell you from the bottom of my
heart that you are wrong that nobody would like to change themselves.

While I love some parts of my personality, I would have happily given some of
that up if it meant I could function socially and not get burnt out by trying
to simply work a regular job, cook a meal most days, and keep up with the most
basic chores.

But yeah, I definitely don't think parents should have any say when it comes
to these kinds of medication. As all medication they should only be given to
people who suffer.

If you didn't, and don't suffer, you should not have been medicated. I did
suffer, I do suffer, and so does my daughter. I would like to have the choice
for myself, and her for herself. We waited until she herself recognised that
she didn't want the suffering her traits caused her with how the world
currently works. Ideally, I would have changed the world for her to not need,
or want to change. However, changing the world is rarely a choice we get to
make.

------
pmoriarty
An obvious question is whether this could also be used as a nootropic by non-
autistic individuals, and what effect (if any) it would have.

~~~
glibgil
> what effect (if any) it would have

super charisma

~~~
alanh
Eh, maybe… but I am reminded of the observation that if a single tweak could
significantly enhance mental abilities, evolution would have probably given it
to us already. I think Eliezer Yudkowsky has a longish piece to this effect
(please forgive me if I am mis-remembering).

~~~
jacob019
Super charisma or other abilities in all members of a group could have
negative reproductive consequences and reduce the genetic fitness of that
configuration, even if it's available.

~~~
rocqua
Then you might expect a balance where everyone has a low chance of expressing
such a fenotype. I believe there are ideas that color-blindness has a benefit
like this. The same with sickle-cell anemia.

------
nub3
[https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2017-08-blocking-enzyme-
lin...](https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2017-08-blocking-enzyme-linked-
alzheimer-reverse.html)

The above mentioned study links raising HDAC2 to reverse effects of
Alzheimer's disease.

I doubt that the autism study with mice really 'cured' autism. I think the
cancer drug reduced cognitive abilities, so mice seemed to react 'normal'.

------
devmunchies
I learned a lot about autism, cancer, and many causes (e.g. our food system,
glyphosphate (weed killer), our sterile environment) from the endocrinologist
and cancer researcher Dr Zach Bush on this podcast. Very fascinating stuff.
[http://www.richroll.com/podcast/zach-
bush-353/](http://www.richroll.com/podcast/zach-bush-353/)

------
hosh
Whoa.

Though I often question if society _should_ treat social deficits of autism
even if such a treatment is effective without side-effects.

Another solution would be for society to be generally more neuro-inclusive. I
can't help but wonder if there are synergistic benefits from being able to
have different ways of experiencing the world.

(I don't have ASD; my step-daughter is on the spectrum).

~~~
EamonnMR
Society is very difficult to change, and activist groups aren't pushing in
that direction as a whole (Autism Self Advocacy Network is far smaller than
Autism Speaks.) Drugs are easy to make acceptable as long as the medical
establishment is ok with it.

~~~
scardine
Hell, not that long ago lobotomies were accepted by the medical community.
This is the problem with conditions that place a heavy burden on the parents,
there is an incentive to act against the best interests of the children.

------
airbreather
My child is on the spectrum, but I love him as he is and he is happy as he is.
He is funny and quirky, my mother says I was similar as a child.

Plus, he just won his school prize for Year 9 EMITS (STEM) so not sure why I
would want to mess with what might make him like that.

------
ada1981
Couple things...

This drug is naturally occurring and derived from a bacteria that is found in
soil. Curious about a link between kids not playing in the dirt enough and
autism.

Second, this drug is used to treat lymphoma. Surely their have been kids with
autism who also had lymphoma who were exposed to this drug. Would be useful to
look and see if there are cases of autism being cured along with lymphoma
treatment (thanks to my mom, @DrJanetRose for that insight).

~~~
loriverkutya
> Curious about a link between kids not playing in the dirt enough and autism.

I'm sorry, but it seems, you don't really know much about autism. It is not a
disease which you develop over the years, because you have been not played
enough in the dirt.

You born with it.

Also, there is no known 'cure' for autism.

~~~
ada1981
I certainly don't know a lot about Autism, you are right about that.

Since this drug is found in the dirt, I became curious if there might be a
link between microbial exposure and autism.

I started to look and came across an article in the American Journal of Public
Health that said the one of the biggest factors for risk of autism was urban
vs Rural and that researchers speculated it may have to do with neonatal
microbial exposure.

AUTISM AND URBANIZATION
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2882422/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2882422/)

I spoke with an SF biohacker doctor friend who said that autism "for certain”
was connected to the microbiome.

I don't claim to be an expert, but my curiosity is certainly leading me to
some new personal discoveries about Autism.

------
callesgg
I would like to see a chart of the autism spectrum.

Cause from where I am standing we are all on the spectrum but where are people
and when is even worth talking about the spectrum.

