

Snacking Hierarchy - jstorimer
http://habitformed.com/2012/02/13/snacking-hierarchy

======
mildweed
TL;DR:

    
    
      First, I must take a sip of water.
      Next, I have to eat a serving of vegetables or fruit.
      Next, I can eat a serving of nuts or more fruit.
      Last, I am allowed whatever terrible yet tasty treat I want, up to one serving.

~~~
eru
Not completely accurate. First, the author's reasoning is more interesting
than that specific stack. Second, you can opt out at any time: So replace
"have to eat [...]" with "may eat".

------
jader201
> ...to mentally active (reading), to mentally passive (videogames, movies)

I'm sorry, since when did playing video games become "mentally passive"? (I
say that somewhat half-jokingly.)

While reading I'm sure is much more healthy than playing video games, I don't
think you can put video games -- for the most part -- in the same "mental"
classification as watching a movie. Most video games require thinking and
coordination.

Movies, on the other hand, barely require thought, zero coordination, and free
your hands up to stuffing your face with processed goodies.

~~~
jkaunisv
Haha I thought the videogame line would draw this comment out. I actually
agree with you 100% - I love videogames and often argue for them as much
deeper and valuable experiences than people give them credit for.

In this example it's a personal aspect of how they fit into my life - the
games I tend to play these day aren't very mentally engaging. Tends to be
something I've played so much it's routine & reflex (CounterStrike) or really
easy that I play for other reasons (Pokemon).

I actually 'invented' the snacking hierarchy because of CounterStrike. Time
between rounds was brutal for eating goodies.

------
jperras
The problem with this approach is that you're not really getting much valuable
nutrition from what you're eating.

1\. Water: Drinking water is, of course, necessary, and quite a few people
don't actually hydrate enough during the course of a day. +1 on this from me.

2\. Fruits/vegetables: Now, fruits and vegetables are an essential part of
_any_ well-balanced diet, but if you're using them to satisfy an intermittent
craving, I'm guessing you're probably going to reach for fruits. The problem
with this is that if you're reaching for that apple a few times a day, you're
still ingesting ~25g of carbohydrates (~9% daily recommended intake), and ~100
kcal. Eat four apples (or similar fruits), and you've suddenly consumed 1/5th
of your caloric requirements and almost 40% of your carbs. In terms of
macronutrients, an apple has about the same nutritional value as an 8oz bottle
of coke.

Now don't get me wrong. Reaching for an apple instead of a muffin or a cupcake
is unarguably _better_.

If you're reaching for vegetables instead of fruits, then most of what I
stated above doesn't really apply. However, when those food cravings come
around it's usually in response to a drop in blood glucose levels, which makes
you reach for carb-laden foods first.

3\. Nuts. Sigh. I don't know why people think nuts are actually something
that's supposed to exist in a well-balanced diet. Perhaps it's the recent
popularity of paleo. Anyways. Yes, nuts do contain a high percentage of poly-
and monounsaturated fats, and fat is good for you. No one is going to argue
that. But for the same caloric cost (~150 kcal for a serving of almonds, and
that's a pretty tiny serving), you can eat a whole lot of more interesting and
nutritious foods. Again, I'm not saying that nuts are inherently _bad_.

~~~
jkaunisv
Thanks for the more detailed approach. I'm pretty handwavy about my nutrition
because I'm overall happy with where I'm at.

I do actually go for carrots and broccoli before apples and bananas quite
often. I like them a lot. Often I end up eating just a few raisins before it's
time for my next actual meal (which is balanced and full of veggies).

What are the more interesting and nutritious foods you're talking about? I
would like to try them!

~~~
jperras
A few of my usuals (links are for quick nutritional info):

\- low-fat/non-fat greek yogurt:
[http://www.presidentschoice.ca/LCLOnline/products.jsp?type=d...](http://www.presidentschoice.ca/LCLOnline/products.jsp?type=details&keywords=greek+yogurt&_requestid=614264&productId=prod1340005)

\- 1%-2% cottage cheese:
[http://www.presidentschoice.ca/LCLOnline/products.jsp?type=d...](http://www.presidentschoice.ca/LCLOnline/products.jsp?type=details&keywords=cottage+cheese&_requestid=614448&productId=prod1540053)

\- Smoked salmon

\- Flaked tuna:
[http://www.presidentschoice.ca/LCLOnline/products.jsp?type=d...](http://www.presidentschoice.ca/LCLOnline/products.jsp?type=details&keywords=tuna&_requestid=615046&productId=13599)
(great in salads)

 _Edit_ : Oh, and a good mix of vegetables is always good. Just watch that
your fiber intake doesn't get out of control, since that can cause some
digestive... issues.

~~~
eru
If you live in central Europe, I suggest going for quark instead (or in
addition to) cottage cheese.

------
eru
> Since trying to cut junk out completely is really hard, instead I limit my
> intake of junk food while ensuring I get the nutrients and energy I need.

I actually find it easier to completely abstain from unwanted behaviour, than
allowing myself some and keeping a tally.

The author's method would probably still work for me, as it doesn't require
keeping a tally. Not so much for eating, since I don't have any problem with
willpower in that area. But for choosing activities.

~~~
helentoomik
This seems to be very personal: some people are "moderators" while others are
"abstainers". If you want to change a habit, any habit, it helps to know which
category you belong to. [http://www.happiness-
project.com/happiness_project/2009/01/q...](http://www.happiness-
project.com/happiness_project/2009/01/quiz-are-you-a-moderator-or-an-
abstainer.html)

------
jilebedev
> Make your long-term decisions when your head is at its clearest, then don’t
> question those until you’ve had time to track results.

Great tip - I've come across it myself when learning emotional maturity. A
part of self-awareness is the mental equivalent of trying and failing to sudo
- understanding that who I am at the moment isn't who should be making long-
term decisions... and being at peace with that. This doesn't dissolve my
discontent, but simply adds a sensible maximum to the damage my emotionally-
charged moods can have.

------
alexholehouse
What time-frame to give between different levels of the hierarchy? One of the
reasons sweet/fatty foods are so tasty is because they make us feel full fast
- I'd imagine to be super effective you'd need to have some preset length of
time between different foods?

Irrespective, it's a great idea - starting with water is really good too, as
we're a bit rubbish (technically speaking) at differentiating between thirst
and hunger.

~~~
jkaunisv
Thanks! The water is actually one of the key parts. I can't fathom how many
raisins I would've eaten if I hadn't started sipping water every craving.

I don't really put a time frame between levels. It takes a lot for me to feel
full so that hasn't been something I've paid attention to. When I say it takes
a lot I mean it...I've been denied further service at all-you-can-eat
restaurants. For me the craving isn't really about fullness, it's just a
desire that can often be sated with water and veggies.

I've heard about a 20 minute gap between being full and your stomach letting
you know that, so I'd probably put 10 minutes between each snack. But I'm not
scientific about this at all so I'm just throwing that number out there.

------
smackfu
1\. Water

2\. Fruit.

3\. Nuts or different fruit.

4\. One serving of crap.

5\. #1 again, etc.

~~~
jkaunisv
Haha thanks for the tl;dr, mind if I include that?

~~~
smackfu
Go for it.

------
hammock
People are focusing on the eating specifics (or the video games specific) and
arguing about that when I think it's _the process itself_ that's most
interesting here.

You might have different priorities than the OP when it comes to nutrition, or
leisure activities - that's fine - substitute in your own priorities so we can
talk about the process (Snacking Hierarchy) and its merits.

Whether step 2 is Vegetables or Nuts is immaterial. The point is that it's a
progressive stepwise motion towards those tempting things that you're trying
to avoid.

~~~
jkaunisv
Thanks for noticing that.

------
dredmorbius
Where's the protein (nuts excepted) in this list?

Yoghurt and cottage cheese are go-tos for me. Jerky. Some fruit, more veggies.
Definitely nuts.

And lots and lots of water & tea.

~~~
xiaoma
People don't need nearly as much protein as most Americans eat. One thing I've
noted again and again during my decade-long stay in Asia is how much more
protein westerners (and especially Americans) eat than people here. And
interestingly, the US response to obesity has been to go for even _more_
protein.

To people who make rice the staple of nearly every meal, it looks insane.

~~~
dredmorbius
Your body doesn't store protein. Amino acid (or gluconeogenesis) demands which
cannot be fulfilled by dietary intake (what you've recently eaten and/or is
passing through your digestive tract) are satisfied by catabolizing existing
body tissues: skeletal muscle, and eventually, organs.

Over time, this adds up. Sarcopenia is age-related muscle loss, which amounts
to 0.5%-1% of muscle mass per year. It's reversible through strength training
and proper nutrition.

While this doesn't require eating hundreds of grams of protein per day (though
strength athletes may eat, and benefit from, such quantities), ensuring that
your protein intake is spread throughout the day is helpful.

Rice is interesting in that, while a carbohydrate, the insulin response to it
differs from that of wheat and sugar. That and total dietary intake largely
account for the lower prevalence of obesity among traditional Asian diets.

The Standard American Diet has a lot to condemn it. While it can be high in
protein, it's generally higher in processed carbs, trans fats, and
questionably raised and prepared proteins (CAFO / feedlot / factory-raised
meats, with beef highly treated with hormones and antibiotics).

Among the fitness geeks I know, the first response to those looking to drop
fat is to vastly increase the intake of green/colored/leafy/cruciferous
vegetables. Just sayin'.

Protein intake? 0.5g - 1.25g per pound lean body mass, for general public
through advanced strength/cardio athlete. The catabolic effects of long-
duration cardio may require more protein even than strength training,
ironically.

~~~
xiaoma
> _"The catabolic effects of long-duration cardio may require more protein
> even than strength training, ironically."_

That's not what the data suggests.

Elite Kenyan marathoner's diets are approximately 10% protein (or 75g per
day), 75% carbohydrates and 15% fat. Corn is the primary energy source. Non-
Kenyan runners who have adopted a similar diet have done so with excellent
results.

[http://jonathaninthedistance.blogspot.com/2008/06/nutrition-...](http://jonathaninthedistance.blogspot.com/2008/06/nutrition-
kenyan-marathon-runners-part.html)
<http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1452065>
[http://dailyrunningtips.com/kenyan-runners/kenyan-runners-
an...](http://dailyrunningtips.com/kenyan-runners/kenyan-runners-and-their-
love-for-vegetable-diet/) [http://www.runaddicts.net/health-nutrition/secrets-
from-the-...](http://www.runaddicts.net/health-nutrition/secrets-from-the-
savannah-what-the-diets-of-elite-kenyan-runners-teach-us-about-optimal-
nutrition)

~~~
dredmorbius
It's not that protein is a primary fuel source for muscle, but that excessive
long-duration cardio actively breaks down muscle tissue. I'm familiar mostly
with empirical evidence: long-duration ocean rowers (60-180+ days of 8+
hours/day rowing) typically lose 30-40# of body mass, much of that lean
tissue.

Elite Kenyan marathoners aren't particularly known for being heavily muscled.
Elite sprinters, on the other hand, typically are.

I could dig for some more rigorous research, no time presently.

~~~
xiaoma
> _"Elite Kenyan marathoners aren't particularly known for being heavily
> muscled."_

Agreed. Their goal isn't to be heavily muscled. It's to run fast over long
distances. What's your point?

~~~
dredmorbius
My original (and still current) point is that protein is an essential
macronutrient and that in the interest of general fitness, people should
consume it fairly constantly throughout the day, at roughly 0.5 - 1.25 g/lb
body mass.

A champion Kenyan marathoner, say, Geoffrey Mutai, weighs roughly 53 kg (123
lb) at 182 cm (6 ft). If he's representative of the Kenyans consuming 75g of
protein per day, he actually illustrates my points fairly well:

1\. He's consuming 0.6g protein per pound body mass. Which is in the range I'd
suggested for general health.

2\. I'd suggested that athletes engaged in long-duration cardio should eat
more protein, _or suffer catabolic effects_. Mr. Mutai exhibits the second
part of that statement. While it's an absolutely horrid measure of anything
resembling health, BMI gives us at least a scale to compare relative body mass
to height ratios. Mutai's clocks in at 16.6, where "normal" is generally given
as 18.5-25, and a bodybuilder, at 3-6% bodyfat, may clock in at 30-40. The
argument here isn't fitness or appropriateness to task, it's to point out that
our Kenyan here is at the very low end of the body mass-to-height scale, as a
consequence of having _both_ exceptionally low bodyfat, and very little
muscle.

3\. The unanswered question and unstated assertion is how this affects
longevity and quality of live, and that we're discussing snacking habits,
nutrition, and exercise in the context of general fitness in a general
population that's not, as a rule, prone to trotting off for 26.21875 mile
jaunts on a daily basis, though some may partake occasionally. Longevity of
athletes is a mixed bag: American football players pretty notoriously die
young (55 or so median). Finnish Olympians, according to one study, showed a
few added years of longevity. The Stanford Runners Study (long-term
longitudinal research) shows very consistent benefits of regular exercise,
though I believe this is generally not inclusive of daily marathon-distance
bouts. I'm not aware of the specifics of Mutai's training, but suspect much of
it takes place at sub-marathon distances as well.

There's also the matter that extreme devotion to a single mode of exercise can
lead to other problems. Long-distance cyclists, it turns out, suffer from both
muscular and skeletal weaknesses due to the specifics of muscle stimulus, bone
loading (or lack), and biochemical changes induced by hours spent on a bike.
They're now encourage to strength train to make up for this, though it's
another sport that rewards a light, wiry frame.

And finally, yes, if your goal is to be very, very good at winning marathons,
you want to be tall, light, slow-twitch, very efficient at metabolizing
glycogen, and very good at metabolizing fats (former for higher output, latter
as lipid metabolism is generally rate-limited). In a fitness-for-goals
perspective, Mr. Mutai is precisely where he needs to be.

For the average Joe or Jane, perhaps not so much.

These, and the sharp bit at the end, are my points.

------
laconian
Air-popped popcorn at home for me. Cheap, easy, filling, but also fiber-rich
and not highly caloric. Provided you don't pour a whole stick of butter over
the whole thing. :P

------
lurker17
More diet and snack hacks: <http://weblog.mrbb.org/2010/12/diet-hacks.html>

------
battaile
I'd be interested to know what this guys body fat % is because that sounds
like some seriously horrible advice.

~~~
jkaunisv
My body fat % is extremely low, but I can't remember the exact number. When I
do those electric handheld fat % tests, they error out. I'm an archetypal tall
and skinny nerd, basically.

The system works for me because I end up satisfying the craving on healthy
stuff before I can get to the unhealthy a lot of the time. That said,
everything I write about is based on personal experience and I just try to
distill some of the general tips that anyone could use.

~~~
gaustin
I think another subtle thing some might overlook is that you specifically said
"serving." That is something like 2 oreo cookies or a handful of baby carrots.
It would be a different story if you ate two baby carrots and then half a
package of oreos.

Most people would probably make themselves sick before getting too many
calories under a reasonable interpretation of this hierarchy.

~~~
jkaunisv
Quite right. I actually tend to double up my veggie/fruit servings because I
like them so much.

