
Ask HN: Conclusive evidence to turn anti vax into anti anti vax - uptownfunk
Have some friends that are anti vax.. what are your go to resources to show them the light? If you are anti vax, what are your reasons&#x2F;evidence for being so?
======
hguhghuff
Don’t bother.

It’s an emotional decision to be anti vax.

No logic or facts you can present will change their minds.

Key life lesson: emotional positions cannot be changed by logic. Wish I’d
known that years ago.

Except perhaps factual accounts of children of anti vaxers who became very
sick, with for example whooping cough or measles.

~~~
dominicr
Yep. If you really want to try to persuade them don't expect that the harder
you push, the more likely you are to succeed. The opposite is true.

Mostly we make decisions based on a gut instinct and then look for evidence to
back that up, ignoring or down voting contrary evidence. In fact seeing
opposing views can actually reinforce the original opinions.

Changing an opinion routed so deeply is rarely a single moment of revelation
and move likely a slow, drop by drop erosion. So just be one of those drops.

You could read Street Epistemology's basics about how to begin discussing it:
[https://streetepistemology.com/publications/street_epistemol...](https://streetepistemology.com/publications/street_epistemology_the_basics)

------
new_guy
I think a lot of confusion over this issue is that people expect it to be 100%
black, or 100% white and the reality is it's not.

Vaccines _mostly_ work, and at scale that translates into thousands of people
having adverse reactions to them, and it's exacerbated by vaccine companies
mixing different vaccines together and adding preservatives that aren't
strictly necessary but increase the life span and thus profit.

For the record, I'm pro-vaccine but it's a nuanced issue.

This is an example that's always stuck in my mind

>For example, a study into the vaccine used during the 2009 swine flu outbreak
found that for every million people who had the vaccination, there were less
than two extra cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome.[0]

That's the kind of thing anti-vaxxers seize on.

There's also the 'vaccine court'[1] that's paid out over 4 BILLION DOLLARS[2]
for injuries from vaccines.

Something that gets lost in the noise is pharma companies are pro-profit, the
more vaccines they sell[3] the more money they make. The more they can combine
vaccines, the more money they can make. Increasing shelf life by adding things
like thimerosal decrease production costs but increases risk etc etc.

Pharma companies don't care about health, they care about profit.

So, again, I'd like to reiterate I'm actually pro-vaccine but it's not black
and white, and I'd really like if pro-vaxxers and anti-vaxxers could come
together and discuss this stuff rationally without the hysterics!

0 [https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/guillain-barre-
syndrome/causes...](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/guillain-barre-
syndrome/causes/)

1
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_court](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_court)

2 [https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-
compensation/data/index.html](https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-
compensation/data/index.html)

3 [https://vaxopedia.org/2018/07/15/do-kids-really-
get-72-doses...](https://vaxopedia.org/2018/07/15/do-kids-really-get-72-doses-
of-vaccines/)

~~~
sharemywin
It's also pretty hard to use statistical arguments when someone watched their
kid go into convolutions a couple hours after a vaccination.

~~~
sharemywin
Studies have shown a small increased risk for febrile seizures during the 5 to
12 days after a child has received their first vaccination with the measles,
mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccine. The risk is slightly higher with the measles,
mumps, rubella, varicella (MMRV) combination vaccine, but the risk is still
small

[https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/febrile-
seizures....](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/febrile-
seizures.html)

------
bigato
There's a extensive review on a couple of podcasts on this topic by the
"Science Versus" podcast.

------
Khelavaster
I'm anti-adjuvant because adjuvants push your body's immune system into a
Th2-heavy mode (antiparasitic/antifungal). Repeated adjuvant administrations
are likely to contribute to immune disorders, especially Th2-heavy disorders
and immunoproliferative disorders. Many, many autistic people have Th2-heavy
(and generally imbalanced) immune systems. When exposed to immune stimulants,
you'd expect these people to show additional symptoms. Adjuvants, by design,
overstimulate immune systems. Repeated adjuvant exposure during infancy
probably contributes to disorders of hyperactive immune systems.

Live virus vaccines are adjuvant-free. MMR vaccine, studied in the "vaccines
cause autism" study and refuted by countless other studies, is actually
adjuvant-free.

TL;DR -- Adjuvants are likely to overstimulate some peoples' immune systems,
because they're designed to strongly stimulate peoples' immune systems.

Still better to use adjuvanted vaccines than be unvaccinated and get terrible
illnesses though.

~~~
who-knows95
what is TH2-heavy mode,

------
paulcole
Do you want to keep being friends with them? Then keep your mouth shut.

Do you want to not be friends with them and have them not vaccinate their kid?
Show them whatever research you want, you’re not changing their minds.

------
EGreg
Sidestep it. There is VALIDITY to their concerns - vaccines may in some small
amount of cases have serious side effects!

Ask about statistics, though. Have them show you the stats. Then ask this:

Would you not wear a seatbelt because in some rare cases the seatbelt can
actually bring about a negative outcome?

Herd Immunity doesn’t apply to seatbelts but they are freeriding on others’
herd immunity.

------
DoreenMichele
I'm neither pro vax nor anti vax. Both camps are equally irrational.

By pro vax, I mean the folks who feel compelled to push their vaccine views
and agenda on other people. Like you.

When I was growing up, statistics on vaccinations were counted in the "We have
successfully vaccinated X percent of people" way. It wasn't expected to
achieve 100 percent coverage for the entire population. Now, we tend to
discuss it in the vein of "X percent of people failed to get vaccinated or
refused vaccines." like it's a failure if we don't have 100 percent coverage.

There are legitimate exceptions to getting vaccinated. There are people with
serious health issues for which vaccines are actually contra-indicated.

If we would stop acting like 100 percent of all people _must_ be vaccinated
and _resistance is futile_ and just let those folks with issues quietly not
get vaccinated without having to actively justify their choice, then a lot of
this rhetoric and politicking would go away.

There are ways to deal with a small percent of folks not being vaccinated that
respect their right to choose without endangering other people. If you are
genuinely worried that some small percentage of folks are a threat to your
health, then looking into how we can design a world that is safe for both the
unvaccinated and those who fear them is a better approach.

I have all my childhood vaccinations. I'm "supposed to" get the annual flu
shot because of my respiratory condition. I stopped getting it years ago
because all the people helping me get healthier after doctors wrote me off for
dead were strongly anti vax.

I'm not strongly anti vax. Anti vaxxers hate on me. Pro vaxxers hate on me.
I'm just someone who wants to exercise my right to opt out of the fucking
annual flu shot, which isn't actually required, yet I can't do that without
being given hell by some internet stranger or other who lives nowhere near me,
yet still wants to inform me that I am evil incarnate and a danger to their
welfare or the welfare of some sickly family member of theirs.

~~~
uptownfunk
Not sure why you are being downvoted here.. thanks for your perspective and
contribution. I think hnews folks tend to fetishize what they see as
“scientific thinking” a bit too much and anything that goes out of that narrow
view tends to be downvoted into oblivion.

