
A sudden loss of wealth may be hazardous to health - digital55
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-suddenly-poor-death-20180403-story.html
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amalcon
> _This sudden loss could have caused stress, inflammation and /or high blood
> pressure, any of which could make serious cardiovascular problems more
> likely, the study authors noted. In addition, a financial blow of this scale
> may well have prompted people to skip important (but expensive) medical
> appointments or to stop filling necessary (but pricey) prescriptions._

The cart seems to be before the horse here, in at least some cases. One of the
most reliable ways to experience a negative wealth shock is to incur a big
medical bill. E.g. if someone develops cancer, it's reasonably likely that
they will experience a negative wealth shock and then die, but the loss of
money did not cause the death.

The study itself[1] does mention medical debts as a considered liability, but
(at least from my skim) I didn't find any other reference to this explanation.

[1]-[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2677445](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2677445)

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ams6110
The problem with that theory is that wealthy people generally have good health
insurance.

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opencl
The median net worth of the people that lost their wealth in the study was
~$110k, which is just slightly above the US median at ~$100k.

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onion2k
I protect myself from this risk by not having any money.

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paulgb
I have bad news for you

> As bad as things were for those who experienced a "negative wealth shock,"
> they were even worse for Americans who didn't have any wealth in the first
> place.

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somethingsimple
Which doesn’t make sense to me. How can you lose something if you don’t have
anything?

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PeterisP
The study found that those who don't have anything in the first place had even
worse health outcomes than those who experienced a sudden loss of wealth.

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vinceguidry
Status is how most people find meaning in their lives. Without the ability to
keep up with your peers, life becomes meaningless. Frustrated status accounts
for far more deaths in this country than we want to admit.

Even if you're sanguine enough to accept a loss in status, having your spouse
leave you and your kids hate you make it that much more difficult. Even if you
don't actually commit suicide, you'll stop maintaining your health and before
you know it, you're in an early grave.

Fixing this would mean telling Americans to stop caring about status, I don't
see that happening for at least another hundred years.

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lynal
I've heard anecdotally that negative health shocks can lead to terrible wealth
loss as healthcare is very expensive.

Is relationship of the magnitude that could impact these results?

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Panino
I used to work with a homeless shelter and the director told me the #1 cause
of homelessness was sudden massive healthcare bills. This can even extend to
caring family members who foot the bill, leaving them financially at the edge,
just before suffering some shock of their own.

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jcadam
Hmm... seems like if someone in your household is diagnosed with some terrible
(expensive to treat) illness, you should just operate under the assumption
that you _will_ be declaring bankruptcy after all is said and done. And
therefore:

\- Do NOT touch IRAs or any other asset that might be protected during
bankruptcy (i.e., don't liquidate everything in a futile attempt to keep up
with the medical bills).

\- Pay as little as you can get away with on those medical bills during
treatment. Then sort it all out in bankruptcy court.

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kbenson
> Pay as little as you can get away with on those medical bills during
> treatment. Then sort it all out in bankruptcy court.

That sounds like a good strategy anyway, since you can't ever be sure a
procedure _will_ fix a problem, even if it _should_ , so future expenses are a
fairly open question.

You don't have a lot of options if after your first medical solution you've
paid everyone in full and are out of money but the problem isn't resolved, but
frugal rationing of payments might mean you have quite a few tries before your
funds are exhausted (even if you've left a trail of partially paid bills).

Unfortunately, I imagine the length of time involved means it's probably
tricky to prevent past bills being reported as debt that might affect future
actions.

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Retric
Yea, this really depends on the illness but there is a lot of slack in the
system.

It can take 2-3 months before you get a bill after medical treatment add
another 60-90 days before it's very late and you have 6 months or so before
your credit get's trashed assuming zero payment.

However, partial payments can push this out much further. Remember, companies
don't want to sell you debt as they only get a fraction of it's total value so
work with them. So, paying say 1% per month is often enough to avoid sending a
very large bill to collections.

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claudiulodro
Is it the loss of wealth causing the health hazards or is it just that being
poor is not good for your health? In the last paragraph they say the group
that never had wealth had the worst outcomes of all.

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ChuckMcM
They discuss it in the article a bit, as I read it they said "Stress
externalizes itself as health issues (high blood pressure, poor sleep, etc)
and sudden loss of wealth causes stress in proportion to how risk averse you
are."

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dsfyu404ed
This moves beyond water being wet and into quantifying it's wetness. Good for
whoever managed to turn it into a published paper.

(I'm not trying to detract from the paper, studying and quantifying the
obvious is just as important as replication studies)

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crispyporkbites
is water wet though? or are only the things it comes into contact with wet?

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zhoujianfu
I’m surprised that 1 in 4 people in the study lost more than 75% of their net
worth at some point! I wonder if that was a housing crash or dotcom bubble or
is just typical?

And that the median amount lost was 92% ($101K)... implying they went from
about $109K net worth to $8K on median.

That would be pretty stressful for sure.

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danielvf
The volatility goes the other way too - Also 60% of Americans will be in the
top 20% of income earners for at least two years during their lives, and
almost 40% will spend at least two years in the top 10%.

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noahc
Can you provide a source for this?

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danielvf
Sure!

[https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/05/308380342/most...](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/05/308380342/most-
americans-make-it-to-the-top-20-percent-at-least-for-a-while)

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harlanji
If not centered one’ll quickly get psych issues. And if one doesn’t eat and
sleep well they quickly fall off center. Best to know how to survive on basics
and prioritize health, realize mind > matter.

For ex. I’ve learned to eat only Huel, oranges, dates, potatos, coffee, and a
bag of chips or vegan cookie each day for the past 4-5mo. Grew up poor on
frozen/fast food, moved to SF and became a foodie for a couple years, started
using Blue Apron/Plated to learn cooking, later switched to Vegge option, and
now have above diet. I am a foodie when I go out, but instead of 2x daily it’s
more like quarterly. Wide spectrum, common denominator is addiction to vivid
clean feeling from fresh food and 16/8 intermittent fasting.

I also find that sleeping on the floor is most comfortable now with low body
fat (inspired by Korean friends in Uni), so I’ve put my bed against a wall
~3mo ago and doubled my 350sqft premium SF space.

The biggest hazard is emotional health. Friends and ex-colleagues use the time
to point out the flaws that have led to and caused the event, in their view.
Talking about it with others in general terms sounds like complaining and
that’s why people don’t talk about it openly, much. And it is a waste of time,
perhaps beyond once to get it off the chest. All one can do is look forward
with a new plan in response to the change... lean into it.

Mind > matter, poverty can be illuminating with right priorities.

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emodendroket
I mean, great, but all the mindfulness in the world is not going to cure
meningitis.

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fsiefken
I'm currently living with daily fatigue I have never encountered in my life.
This occurred after I had such a wealth shock early this year and I had
symptoms of light depression for a week. I am not sure if the fatigue is
directly connected to this but I keep all options open, including post-viral
syndrome, epstein-barr, being stress out or this.

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CryoLogic
Get these tested: Sensitive E2, TSH, T3, T4, DHEA, Testosterone, Free
Testosterone, Prolactin.

All of those hormones cause fatigue when not regulated correctly.

You can get them tested at privatemdlabs.com and get the blood tests locally
at any LabCorp.

(this is just a suggestion that ended up useful for me and I am not a doctor)

~~~
fsiefken
Thanks!

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crawfordcomeaux
Seems legit, considering so many people view money as a need, rather than a
strategy for meeting needs.

I currently am choosing to live in a way that minimizes the amount of money I
make/spend, as well as property I own. I meet my needs through the supportive
community I've found, by asking for what I need, work-trading, and signing up
for government services.

My life is better than it's ever been, but I had to change my entire mindset.
An old friend in the same community hasn't adopted my approach and hasn't
worked on leaving behind the scarcity mindset. They worry about everything,
including keeping their job. It leads them to act in ways that keep them
employed, eating right, and socializing.

This kind of self-imposed stress we adopt over money isn't productive.

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emodendroket
Losing your home, being unable to pay medical bills, and struggling to provide
things for your family isn't "self-imposed stress."

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crawfordcomeaux
Were I to choose to rely on money to meet my needs, I'd be imposing stress on
myself.

Capitalism is a collective choice and very few people take responsibility for
making it.

I lost my home. I learned to accept my situation. I was lucky enough to be
able to move to a state where the state covers medical bills. I'm starting a
family and there's such an abundance of things in the world that I tend to
need only ask for them.

Learning to grieve & let go of the loss of a resource and how to ask for help
are skills not often taught in modern society.

Yes, the events you note are hard and can be out of people's control.

How those people mentally respond to them is something they can control to a
degree and develop resiliency for.

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emodendroket
How exactly does one not participate in capitalism while living in a
capitalist society?

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crawfordcomeaux
It's practically impossible to not participate completely, since the
government doesn't recognize the freedom from money.

Minimizing one's participation can be done through making conscious choices. I
choose to keep my income and expenses small. I rely on sharing what I have and
asking others to give. I choose to believe there's enough resources in the
world for everyone, though the distribution of the resources may lead to
localized scarcity.

I'll also be testing the legal theory of the freedom from money. I practice a
religion of my own design where that freedom naturally arises from
foundational principles.

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emodendroket
Ultimately even you admit it's impossible not to make the supposed choice you
are talking about.

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crawfordcomeaux
Just because it isn't 100% possible doesn't mean we can't minimize things now.
We have a government that requires money to interact with it _for now_.

I can choose which direction I want to move toward and so can you.

Simply because I can't guarantee 100% extraction from capitalism at the moment
doesn't mean I can't start moving away from it.

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postit
Loss of wealth can be a good thing thought. A close friend who once was
overweight, stressed, and in the line to have a stroke gave up on his career
to become a travel photographer; Mostly he does some small gigs, but nothing
close to his past live, as he's used to say.

Me otherwise, had a really bad time when I lost my job last year. The mind
goes first and then the body follows the same path.

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munificent
Your friend didn't _lose_ his wealth, he willingly replaced it with a
different life style.

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danschumann
I wonder what percent is correlation and causation. IE if you are losing your
health, you might not realize how your cognitive ability is inhibited, and you
might make many bad decisions.

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danschumann
Then, there is the positive feedback loop. You lose money, you start drinking,
now your decisions are worse, you lose more money, you drink more, your
decisions are worse.

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jonbarker
How do we know this isn't just correlation with risk taking in general? Like
someone who piles away cash is probably also less likely to own motorcycles
etc... just saying.

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waynecochran
"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

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RyanShook
Good reminder to not look at my portfolio this year...

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madengr
It's not that bad. As Dave Ramsey says, only those who jump off a roller
coaster get hurt.

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emodendroket
Well, not if the roller coaster collapses. Hopefully that doesn't happen
anytime soon.

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known
I don't have money. But I'am wealthy;

