
Ask HN: How do you handle toxic coworkers? - tense_potassium
I recently started a new job (web developer). One of the other coworkers is passive-aggressive and judgmental. Someone broke production today and he left several comments in Slack that seem intended to make this person feel bad. His comments are usually just tame enough not to be obviously abusive but hurt nonetheless. He frequently leaves the thumbs-down emoji as a comment on a PR (with no explanation or suggested improvement) and tells people that decisions they&#x27;ve made &quot;don&#x27;t make sense&quot; or are &quot;weird&quot;. Leadership doesn&#x27;t seem bothered by it and even invite him to &quot;do his worst&quot; when leaving comments on a PR. I&#x27;ve only been here a few months and I&#x27;m completely sick of it. I come home wiped out whenever I have a bad interaction with this person, which is several times a week. I would like to quit but I don&#x27;t have another job opportunity. How would you deal with this person? Just ignore them? Call them out when they are being passive aggressive? I&#x27;ve tried to feel out my manager about the situation and he seems mildly unconcerned. It feels like there&#x27;s a lot of potential for me to be labeled &quot;too sensitive&quot; or &quot;not a good fit&quot;.
======
muzani
If you have to ask, it's usually best not to confront them directly. People
who act this way are ready, even eager to get into a fight. Sort of like
fighting a bigger person, you want to disarm them.

A standard tactic is to be genuinely nice to them. You don't have to like
them, but being polite makes them look worse when they are not. You can even
be generous to them. This might actually give you some insight to why he acts
that way. I've had issues with some coworkers who insecure in a job they badly
needed, or some who have a grudge against someone else in the team for a good
reason.

If you do fight back, make sure you can land a solid hit. Argue when you're
clear that you're right, and make them explain where they think you're wrong.
A solid hit will discourage them next time.

The trick with office politics is that you also need more people on your side.
Be friends with the people he's picking on. It sounds like you're isolated.
Wolves avoid herds.

If all else fails, learn to be unbothered like your managers have. Sometimes
you have to treat them like children, which is to smile and nod as they
tantrum. Sometimes you treat them like an environmental hazard, like a puddle
of urine in the bathroom where it's not your job to clean after.

~~~
anon9001
That's excellent advice.

Here's less reasonable advice that I've also found works well: bait toxic
people into bad behavior.

Figure out what gets the biggest response out of them while looking super
reasonable yourself. Try to get them fired up as much as possible so they're
annoying everyone, especially their manager, and not just you. The more people
angry with the toxic person, the shorter their lifespan.

Give them enough rope to hang themselves.

Trolling is a art.

~~~
Minor49er
I'd much rather prefer working with a bully instead of someone who is trying
to trick an alleged bully into destructive behavior, personally

~~~
AnimalMuppet
I agree with you. I mean, anon9001's approach could work... but it would make
me have to become a manipulative jerk myself. Since the reason the toxic
coworker is a problem is because of what they do to my mental health, this
proposed cure looks as bad as the disease.

------
jillesvangurp
This happens on pretty much any project. Dealing with it constructively is a
key skill to have. The reality is that you are not going to be best pals with
everyone and that should not stop you from having a functional working
relationship with people around you.

What helps is not arguing via tools/email/chat. Just don't go there. It's a
waste of time and just adds fuel to the flames. Lots of techies have trouble
communicating effectively and keyboards generally don't improve things. Just
because somebody is being immature doesn't mean they mean you have to take it
personally. Escalating to your boss/calling them out in public is a last
resort. Your boss will be annoyed that he/she has to be the grown up in the
room instead of you.

Instead try to de-escalate and just walk over to the person and ask them to
clarify and have a friendly chat about whatever it is that's bothering them
and why that's bothering them and try to be constructive. "OK, you think this
PR is not ready yet. How do I fix it?". You'd be surprised how often a
friendly, informal chat can clear the air. Maybe you still won't agree with
them 100%, that's fine. If so, ask yourself what it's worth to you to continue
to argue or to simply do things their way.

------
0x1221
Depends on his position relative to yours. If he's the reviewer, _only_
leaving thumbs down on a PR means that he's not doing his job properly. If he
isn't the reviewer, you can just ignore him. When he tells you that your
decisions don't make sense - if it's something that you're discussing,
consider that he might be right and get in more depth on why your decisions
might not make sense, especially if this person is more senior. If it's just a
peer who's throwing around negative one-liners - just ignore him. If it's
someone that you're supposed to learn from / be managed by - then they suck at
their job.

Either way, don't quit because of this. It's far from what I would label
"toxic" and it's likely that you'll meet people like this in most places so
you're better off learning how to handle them early on.

------
aalhour
Did you try talking to this person? Did you try having a personal & private
chat with them? Are they aware of the impact of their behavior on the
environment and their colleagues?

If no, then how about you try talking to them, making them aware of the impact
of their behavior on you? You could go like:

"Hey, I've been meaning to talk to you for a while but I didn't know how to
put it best, I'd appreciate it if you listen to me until the end, I have
observed <list non-judgemental observations> and I personally think of them as
<list impact it had on you>, I'd appreciate it if you could express your
ideas/talk to me/write me in a way that is more productive and constructive. I
don't want our interactions to always end up being negative and I am actually
looking forward to discussing a lot of your ideas in the future. What do you
think?"

EDIT: formatting

------
quickthrower2
Ive been in this kind of situation and I regret not doing more to rectify it
before quitting. I’d say 50% chance quitting is the only way to resolve this
and 50% something can be done. But getting something done might require some
finess, and understanding what your bosses care about and framing it in that
regard. For example if they care about deadlines I’m sure you can argue this
is slowing the team down. But nepotism and politics rule some places and it
may be tough to get a change, as an ideal org would have spotted this and not
allowed it to happen. But if you complain and other people do then something
might happen.

------
rs23296008n1
Toxic people at work always exist as part of the overall environment. The
environment tolerates them. Judge the environment. I'd be asking myself why
I'm in that environment and what I hope to achieve. If you're feeling this way
now, how will you feel in six months time? Will you still feel like tolerating
rush hour traffic to get to that workplace? For how long?

Not all jobs can be swapped out easily. Your situation matters. You may have
to stay in that environment for whatever reason. Know your reason and the
boundaries thereof. Be clear to yourself. Decide on what would cause you to
exit and when. Be explicit in your reasons and why. You might have to remind
yourself every day.

Maybe this environment isn't toxic or the situation isn't so bad. Get legal
counsel anyway in terms of a bullying case. You may not have an actual bully
in play right now but preparation for such might help. Even if you don't go
the legal route, keep a journal, notes etc. If the manager is turning a blind
eye to the situation that definitely isn’t good either.

------
bythckr
"tells people that decisions they've made "don't make sense" or are "weird""

Just thinking about this, this guy is so dumb that he cannot understand what
others are saying. Think like that.

One thing what I see is that people spill shit all over the place are just
people who are being filling & drowned in shit. What is you see is just the
after effect of shit drowning him.

Why get excited by a "thumps up" & feel bad by a "thumps down"? Someone
appreciating or disapproving is just based on their perception. Its not the
final judgement. There are many variable factors effecting a person. Just
because some shit happened to someone and that person just vented on you. Why
ruin your day based on that? Let it go. Be like a lotus, surrounded by shit
but no shit sticked on the lotus.

FYI: I know I haven't conveyed myself in the best way possible, but I am doing
my best (this makes perfect sense in my head). Well, I dont have "the best of
words - everyone knows it". hehe.

------
shamanreturns2
If he is making you want to quit then you're giving him too much power over
you. Ignore him and focus on what is expected from you and don't expect the
workplace to be heaven on earth.

------
lol636363
Once I was in this situation except there was a group of senior devs who acted
like this. There were a lot of junior devs who were scared of these old
gaurds. Everyone thought these people were untouchable.

During my one on one with my manager, I mentioned toxic environment without
naming names. My manager told me that management was aware of them but was not
able to do anything since they never really crossed line and no one ever filed
any complaints. He said if enough developers complaint then they can take
action even without bullies crossing actual line.

Of course, I didn't want to rally anyone to file complaints. But my manager
told me they were not untouchable. So I started holding my ground and
eventually bullies left me alone.

------
askafriend
Is it possible to deliver the feedback to your manager and then ask to reduce
interaction? (e.g. avoid working on the same projects, etc).

That's how I'd try to approach it if the person seems like they can't be
reasoned with.

If the person seems like they can be reasoned with, then I'll just go have a
conversation with them and give them the feedback directly. If that fails,
then I'd fall back to trying to distance myself from the impact as much as
possible while delivering the feedback to people that can potentially help
make the situation better.

------
sjg007
In my experience this usually boils down to different opinions on design
decisions or the best way to implement a feature. One way to mitigate is to
hold a design review where you get their sign off before the PR. Outline the
basic strategy and pseudo-code. Document the functional interfaces etc...

The other thing to do is to ask for specific feedback to get to the root cause
of the disagreement. I try to disarm them by agreeing that the code "smells"
but it was the best you could do given the constraints. Does this developer
"own" the code (is it their baby) or product you are working on? Ask what they
would do... you can't mind read after all.

If you've built group consensus first then the negative reviewer has less room
to maneuver as well.

Next consider proposing that the group create a code review protocol. This is
similar to a coding style convention. Try to get consensus and sign off.

Lastly, check out the 5 secrets to effective communication, they really work.
It's takes a lot of practice though.

[https://feelinggood.com/2016/12/12/014-the-five-secrets-
of-e...](https://feelinggood.com/2016/12/12/014-the-five-secrets-of-effective-
communication-part-1/)

------
jrowley
First, I’m sorry you’ve found yourself in this situation. The good news is
that you are going to learn some new skills and grow from this challenge.

I’d try to respond to PR comments/ talk or slack directly with the person and
ask them to elaborate whenever they leave these negative ambiguous comments.
You can even preface it with some humility - “I’m struggling to understand
your point, could you restate this in another way for me?” You can keep going
down this, and if they are just being catty, disrespectful, etc, you can
potentially ask other developers to way in with their opinions, to help come
to some consensus.

As for the mocking regarding production going down, I’d counter if possible in
the thread acknowledging that even the most experienced developers write bugs,
and this speaks to a system problem, not an individual developers fault. I’d
try to remove blame from the individual.

Finally, I’d recommend trying if at all possible to get a little distance from
the situation, whatever the comment is, etc that is bothering you. By that I
mean trying to not let it get under your skin by focusing on your task at hand
despite the negativity (be extra positive instead), maintaining identity
outside of work and allowing yourself some self confidence in your skills and
yourself.

Remember: a) this person might be or act like an asshole (maybe they are just
really insecure? Who knows? Doesn’t matter?) b) management is complicit c) you
maybe able to change behavior but may not d) you may not be able to control
your understandable and appropriate emotional response to the person now, but
if you practice mindfulness (pausing and keeping perspective), you maybe able
to mediate your response and feel better about the situation.

Good luck! I’m feeling for ya!

~~~
rasz
You are just asking for it.

q: “I’m struggling to understand your point, could you restate this in another
way for me?”

a: 'Your self declared lack of understanding coding standards and basic
principles explains "quality" of code you keep submitting'

~~~
corobo
"You misunderstand. I'm struggling to understand your point because you've
made it in a way that focuses more on challenging my intelligence than making
yours known."

and if he retorts that one in the same way just key his car or something.

~~~
sergiotapia
Lol this isn’t downton abbey - this is an incredibly weak response and you
will come off looking weak and unhinged. Just be straight with the man. You’re
being an asshole and I’m sick of it.

~~~
corobo
I'd look unhinged keying someone's car because they did a thumbs down emoji on
my pull request? Please, do tell me more. :P

Word it in whatever way you want, that was just an off the top of my head
example.

------
octokatt
The most helpful framework for approaching bad parts of a social system is to
build similar structures for working with a bad code system.

The strangle method for dealing with a legacy code base can work for social
situations. Create an overarching social structure, with help from other co-
workers, where the toxic person has their own bubble of influence, make sure
the structure is secure, and then slowly reduce the size of the bubble.

An overarching social structure looks like normalized communication channels
(one communication channel as opposed to several, scheduled meetings instead
of one-offs so everyone is invited), clear lines of responsibility, and a
steady escalation chain. Formal review processes in particular, as long as
they don't grow too much cruft, is the easiest way forwards to start shrinking
the bad-actor-bubble.

Coincidentally, this idea can be used for bad purposes, and is often how
programmers can get strangled (so to speak) within their own organization.

------
scarejunba
Tell your manager. Wait four weeks for effect. You may ask for progress
reports if there is no improvement. Leave.

~~~
speedplane
> Tell your manager. Wait four weeks for effect. You may ask for progress
> reports if there is no improvement. Leave.

That's a fine plan, but a simpler one is just to leave. It's exceedingly rare
that someone in a toxic work environment speaks with their manager and then
everything becomes okay.

------
the_resistence
Best thing you can do with toxic people is pretend they don't exist. Instant
relief and they are defanged most of the time. They have to escalate poor
behavior to get the attention they crave and then they get to be too much for
superiors.

------
roselleebarle
In my experience, I only had to remember that they are humans and what's
normal to them might not be normal to me.

I also practiced putting myself into their shoes. I realized they might be
struggling and stressed and tired, too. I know this doesn't justify their
behavior but sometimes being understanding is the best way. When my toxic
coworker actually went on a 2-week vacation with no one bothering him, only
with his family, he came back so refreshed and positive that it was scarier
than him being grumpy and critical all the time in the previous months.

------
jklein11
As far as toxic work behaviors go this doesn’t seem all that bad. You both are
working towards the same goal. The best way to fix this is to focus the
discussion around achieving that goal.

------
ntnlabs
I would just ignore him. And maybe everytime he leaves thumb-down I would
leave a thumb-up. Every time he leaves a negative comment I would leave a
thumb-down on that :)

But in general I would just ignore him....

------
throwaway-_
Personally, it would take a lot of money for me to put up with that so I would
approach it as if I had nothing to lose.

I'm not sure what kind of financial situation you're in so this might not be
the best advice.

If you haven't already given management a chance to fix it themselves, then
tell them to deal with it or you're gone. The cost for management to fix it is
a lot cheaper than hiring a new person.

What do they really have to do? All it takes is them to tell the person to
just stop it.

------
d--b
Talk to other co-workers you trust about how you feel about the guy. If you
find 3-4 people who feel like you feel, just arrange to go together to your
manager, and ask that this person be fired (don’t settle for less). If you’re
ready to quit over this, it doesn’t matter if the process backfires. But if
the process doesn’t work, go to the boss of your boss and HR.

A toxic work environment is very detrimental to productivity so your hierarchy
should take this very seriously.

~~~
sethammons
The "toxic" person sounds like someone who needs coaching on how to interact
with folks. Your immediate reaction is to insist on their termination. You may
want to reflect on that.

~~~
d--b
My view is that he needs coaching for his next job. I think that the
relationship would turn sour if the manager hints that people complained about
the person’s behavior.

~~~
sethammons
I know of a dozen counter examples where behavior has been addressed and
improved. Several who then went on to be highly valuable to the org. Some
people are illequiped to incorporate feedback and improve, and those will have
to seek employment elsewhere. It seems an odd choice to me to not give someone
who is already within the org a chance to improve and to prefer bringing in an
unknown new person to replace them. This case did not come across (to me at
least) as something unfixable. This is not a dangerous person, this is a
person with communication issues.

------
pepper_sauce
The behaviour as described doesn't sound toxic unless they're using it to
bully and are persisting after having discussed it. Your communication styles
don't match and you need to handle it like any other inter-personal problem:
talk to them about it. If you don't feel up to doing it 1 on 1 then ask your
manager to help. If you've done all that then I'd say there's a problem and
you need to escalate your response.

------
billman
My advice would be if you discuss this with either the individual or another
employee, I think it's important to talk about the behaviors and results of
the behaviors that are of concern and not get to stuck on attacking the
person. Sometimes people are just aware of how their actions are affecting the
environment around them. Sometimes a honest frank conversation is all it
takes. Only sometimes though...

------
saluki
If he's been there for a while and management is comfortable with him, I would
just try to stay on his good side, kill him with kindness, he's probably the
type just looking for a fight, I'd stay out of his cross hairs if he has the
ability to wipe you out/make your work life less than tolerable.

Steer clear and look for another opportunity.

------
video-maker
This is a phenomenal read for dealing with toxic people in the workforce and
all areas of life. Taming Toxic People, By David Gillespie

P[https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781760555047/](https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781760555047/)

