
Das Keyboard now pre-ordering Mac version of their mechanical keyboard - dustinrodrigues
http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional-for-mac/
======
jaysonelliot
I use an Apple Extended Keyboard:
<http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/m_kbdm3501.jpg>

It requires a rather hefty ADB to USB adapter, which ran me about fifty bucks
([http://www.amazon.com/Griffin-2001-ADB-iMate-Universal-
adapt...](http://www.amazon.com/Griffin-2001-ADB-iMate-Universal-
adapter/dp/B000067V8L)) but to me, it was worth it.

Modern Apple keyboards look beautiful sitting in a pristine environment, but
the lack of key travel, too-flat form factor, and decent spacing makes typing
unpleasant.

My old Extended Keyboard takes up more space on my desk than my laptop does.
It's noisy as hell. It's about as pretty as a Soviet gas station. And I can
type all day long on it without my hands ever tiring.

~~~
guylhem
If I may, I suggest you try the USB version - Apple USB keyboard -
[http://www.amazon.com/Apple-109-Key-Version-
Keyboard-1003199...](http://www.amazon.com/Apple-109-Key-Version-
Keyboard-1003199/dp/B002C7JG4A)

Very similar layout, with a smaller form factor, non mechanical but to me it
feels just as good, and it features an USB hub. My preferred keyboard at home
and at work, along with some ControllerMate magic to turn the Help key into
something more useful.

PS: it also has a delete (Ctrl-D) key to the right of backspace (Ctrl-H), in
the usual PC position.

~~~
gnaffle
I never liked these. I know some that do, but the keys cannot be compared to
the older Apple Extended Keyboard, they have a completely different feel.
Also, as mentioned, the resistance seems to increase with age.

------
jseliger
1) Their "regular" keyboards work just fine with Macs (see the link in 2) for
more;

2) The Das Keyboard is nice but still not as good as Model M / Unicomp
SpaceSaver: <http://jseliger.com/2009/11/01/product-review-das-keyboard/> . I
used the review copy with an iMac.

3) Virtually any mechanical keyboard is a HUGE improvement on the default
keyboards that most manufacturers ship.

~~~
astrodust
I don't know about that. The current Apple keyboards are fantastic once you
get used to them. My only complaint is that the caps wear down slightly faster
than other keyboards because the plastic flakes off more easily under heavy
wear.

If you're a mechanical nut, you still have the Matias Tactile Pro
(<http://matias.ca/tactilepro3/index.php>) which has the added bonus of not
just the proper keycaps, but the indicators for the additional characters
possible with option and shift.

~~~
gchpaco
I cannot deal with the action on the "new" Apple keyboards. It's like typing
on a pane of glass, it hurts like hell because you have to press the key to
nearly its fullest extension to actuate it, and then your finger comes to an
abrupt halt. They could be the very best scissor type keyboards ever made and
I still couldn't use them for long without getting shooting pains.

~~~
swombat
You barely need to press the keys though... I guess everyone has their own
tastes, but I find the modern Apple keyboards to be the best keyboards I've
ever used. The low key travel and resistance means I apply much _less_
strength than I would on a normal keyboard, which makes it much lighter to
type on.

~~~
jrockway
If you're trained to touch-type on cherry or topre keyswitches, you're not
going to be able to use a non-mechanical keyboard. The muscle action is just
different; you're using your muscles to slow your fingers at the bottom of
each keystroke rather than applying the energy all at once to your desk. This
honestly doesn't make much difference to me, but I know many people who are
more sensitive that do notice the difference. To each, his own.

(Analogy: punch the wall as hard as you possibly can. Then do the same action,
but slow your fist down as quickly as possible so that it doesn't hit the
wall. That's the difference between membrane keyboards and Cherry/Topre/IBM
keyboards.)

~~~
swombat
But the Apple keyboards are mechanical - just with less give. The analogy is
more that in one case, you have to punch a heavy hanging weight and get it to
hit the wall, whereas in the next case, you can just quickly flick it with
your finger to achieve the same effect.

I'm "trained to touch-type" on old keyboards, since I learned to touch-type
when I was a teenager playing MUDs and there were none of these newfangled
Apple keyboards. And yet, I made the transition without even thinking about
it. It's not an iPad keyboard, it's a real keyboard with real keys in all the
right places, and you don't have to smash it quite so hard, but it's still
"mechanical"...

------
vtail
It's interesting to analyze what that decided to put on the front page as
their key features:

\- 3 points (#2, #3 and #8) related to USB functionality

\- 3 essentially identical points (#5, #6 and #7) about what type of keys they
have

\- Only points #1 and #4 are something that could be considered as real
differentiator by a layman

\- Gold-plated contacts are mentioned 4(!) times on the first page - I wonder
if they provide any advantage over silver or metal ones

\- They also mention Darth Vader(!) somewhere on their front page

\- They also have a chart that should communicate some additional value that
the keyboard provides (and it probably does)

Overall, my impression is that they overdid their marketing. Thoughts?

Update: They also mention (in a system requirements sections that nobody
reads) that to use the hub functionality, you would need to occupy two ports
of your mac, not one, which somewhat lessens the value proposition

~~~
gchpaco
Silver is a fantastic conductor, better than copper, but tarnishes far too
quickly for contacts that are expected to actuate consistently over a
prolonged period of time. This is a problem because silver oxides are poor
conductors (as are copper oxides). Gold is an inferior conductor to silver and
copper, but not by that much and it doesn't tarnish. But is it relevant? That
depends on the technology you build the keyboard out of, but I think the
answer is probably a firm "maybe".

As far as technology: there are basically three major varieties. One has a
plastic membrane that separates two conductive surfaces; physical pressure
forces the two surfaces in contact and actuates the key. These are usually
fairly large contact surfaces and also are relatively sealed, but you can get
situations where you need to press harder on the key to get it to actuate, and
if little bits of crap get between the surfaces then the key is pretty well
dead. There are a variety of ways of forcing that actuation; simple physical
pressure (your microwave pad), a plunger (less prone to troublesome false
actuations), the scissor switches you see in laptops or the modern Apple
keyboards, but they're all basically similar as far as electrical conductivity
and tend to fail in relatively similar ways.

The Model M is actually a membrane like this under the surface, but the
membrane is almost totally sealed off and is operated by extremely reliable
and powerful (well, for a keyboard) actuator--the buckling spring operates a
small lever in the guts of the keyboard, pressing the devices in contact. As a
result they get excellent lifetime and a very consistent and desirable action.
The size of the lever and the distance between the key and the actuation (and
also the sheer size of a Model M) mean that the contact surfaces can be
relatively large. Earlier IBM keyboards used a capacitive action which is very
rare today; the only one I know of is the Happy Hacking Keyboard.

The Cherry MX switches the Das uses have a mechanical switch that makes and
breaks contact on every keystroke. They are mechanically more compact than the
buckling spring type with similarly desirable key action, but the switch means
they need to be made in a very durable way. Cherry says the MXs are good for
50 million operations; I don't know how many operations IBM guaranteed theirs
for but I'm sitting next to one made in 1989 so I presume it is "a lot".

Which is a lot of words to say that "gold might make a difference and anyway
Cherry doesn't sell good switches without the gold plating and they're the
only people of any repute making those type of keys any more".

Edit: one other further irritation for people who type fast; N-key rollover is
a term you may have heard of. On a PS/2 keyboard, you can literally activate
every key on the keyboard at once and the computer can track them all. This is
because the PS/2 tracks key up and key down events but doesn't try to keep
state so much. USB does and because of this true N-key rollover is impossible
without custom software on both ends; the best we can do is I think six, so in
this case the Das is state of the art, such as it is. Supposedly the v4
Sidewinder got around this, probably through a custom driver mode.

~~~
vtail
Thanks so much for very informative reply!

------
dotBen
Technically the Das Keyboard Ultimate (ie blank keys) is already mac-
compatible because the appropriate keys would automatically be assigned.

~~~
sjs
Even the keys for volume, iTunes, brightness, and Mission Control?

~~~
guylhem
Well there is an option for Fx keys as Fx keys instead of shortcuts in
Preferences.app

But this keyboard, even if it supposedly designed for the mac, won't get my
money: \- weird FN keys where the right control stands, instead of the
leftmost part like on most laptops (including macbooks) \- eject key way too
close to backspace. (really, what could go wrong especially where the delete
key is - and while the mac can use a proper delete key?) \- no KP_Equal key

Basically, they took the PC version, didn't change the molds (expansive!!) and
just printed some mac-like labels on the key.

A cheap hack, not worth $133.

I'll keep my non mechanical (non gold platted, not approved by Darth Vader)
Apple USB keyboard - [http://www.amazon.com/Apple-109-Key-Version-
Keyboard-1003199...](http://www.amazon.com/Apple-109-Key-Version-
Keyboard-1003199/dp/B002C7JG4A)

And they do also come with a USB hub and work fine even of the newest OSX such
as Lion

~~~
resnamen
I can see there being a market. My mom buys all her crap if and only if it
says "Mac compatible" on the box. I remind her that it's all the same hardware
standards these days, but the persecution complex that was ingrained in her
from the bad old 1990s--countless ADB input devices, a IIsi with its own
flavor of NuBus, and then later a couple awful Performas with funky PDS slots
--she's just used to assuming that hardware just won't work unless it's
_specifically_ blessed as Apple compatible.

~~~
lloeki
> My mom buys all her crap if and only if it says "Mac compatible" on the box.
> I remind her that it's all the same hardware standards these days

Indeed in most cases, but keyboards are something else entirely. If you
regularly switch between a MacBook keyboard and a workstation (be it PC or
Mac) it's a pain to have the layout, spacing and position being _almost_ the
same save for a bunch of keys that bite you back hard. Especially on non-US
layouts (precisely, french).

That's why I strive to use mac-layout keyboards even on PCs. And really, while
the US mac layout is quite close to the PC one, the french ones are
significantly different, and the Mac one simply makes more sense. Ironically
it's extremely hard to find non-Apple non-US Mac layout keyboard.

------
Adaptive
HHKB has DIP switches to select mac/non-mac modes. Mac mode works well in
Linux as well. Also: Small footprint, if you can live without a number pad. I
love the feel.

[http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhk...](http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2&pid=pdkb400b)

------
jamesaguilar
FYI, you also have the option of using the standard Das, and just switching
the Alt and Command keys in the Apple keyboard settings dialog (under special
keys). It is really easy to use a PC keyboard with a Mac seamlessly. Wish the
same was true of the other way around.

~~~
bnastic
Are you referring to Apple's Alu keyboard? I'm using Matias TactilePro Mac
keyabord at work, on a typical Windows PC. No issues here - Command becomes
Win and all is well.

~~~
jamesaguilar
Right: command is in the wrong place w.r.t. a typical Windows keyboard.
There's no simple built-in option in the OS to fix this.

------
rdamico
They're not kidding when they say their keyboards make an audible "click"
sound... they also sell:

Reusable Earplugs: "Multi-use, comfortable earplugs for co-workers or
significant others of Das Keyboard Professional or Das Keyboard Ultimate
users."

------
gioele
When will we finally get rid of the numerical pad?

The now discontinued HP mini keyboard [1] was exactly as I thought all the
keyboards would had been past 2005. Exactly the full size layout, just without
the unnecessary numerical pad whose only use it to keep the mouse far away
from my right hand.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/HP-AS601AA-ABA-Mini-
Keyboard/dp/B0025Z...](http://www.amazon.com/HP-AS601AA-ABA-Mini-
Keyboard/dp/B0025ZSBNG/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1326885077&sr=8-4)

~~~
yvdriess
You never miss keypads ... until you want to play a roguelike.

~~~
sp332
I would buy a separate USB "numpad" and keep it on my other desk, where I can
reach it easily but it doesn't get in the way of my mouse.

------
tikhonj
They've had a Linux key option [1] for a while :) Much more awesome. I
considered getting them even though I have the blank version (which is,
incidentally, great).

[1]: [http://store.daskeyboard.com/Linux-Key-
Caps-2-keys/dp/B004JP...](http://store.daskeyboard.com/Linux-Key-
Caps-2-keys/dp/B004JPK81I)

------
learc83
I use a unicomp (<http://pckeyboard.com/>) buckling spring keyboard. You can
order an apple key from them if you'd like.

~~~
kellishaver
They also appear to have an apple-specific model (unless this is the one
you're talking about): <http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/onthestick.html>

The one pictured is hideously ugly, though.

I switched from a Model M to the default iMac keyboard (the wired one with the
number pad) back in August when I switched to from linux to an iMac and it's
taken me until just recently, to get used to it. I still don't like the feel
of the keyboard quite as much and have been tempted to buy the Unicomp
keyboard many times. That said, I do find it more comfortable than most other
non-mechanical keyboards out there.

I've had several offers from people wanting to buy the Model M, but I refuse
to part with it, even if I'm not using it at this very moment. I found it
years ago, in the back of a storage shed, covered in about a decade of dust,
grease, and cob webs, cleaned it up, and it looks practically new and works
perfectly. I do so love that keyboard.

~~~
lvillani
_> The one pictured is hideously ugly, though._

You can order a customized version. I have a custom Unicomp EnduraPro with
blank keycaps (like a Das Ultimate) and they also reprogrammed it (i.e.: I
wanted to swap CapsLock with left Ctrl and Tilde/Backtick with Esc).

I can't recommend them highly enough.

------
yongshin
Why would somebody buy this? It just sounds like a step backwards in keyboard
design to make keyboards that contribute to noise pollution. I hope Apple does
produce more ergonomic keyboards in the future. In my honest opinion the
Microsoft Natural Keyboard is probably the best Keyboard created thus far and
I have yet to see anyone innovate any further since it was released 10 years
ago: [http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-A11-00337-Natural-
Keyboard-E...](http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-A11-00337-Natural-Keyboard-
Elite/dp/B0000642RX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326875840&sr=8-1)

------
dekz
Does anyone know of a good mechanical keyboard which also has a mouse num
between the keys. Or should I be convinced of why that is such a horrible
idea.

~~~
utexaspunk
Do you mean with a trackpoint? The Unicomp EnduraPro has buckling spring keys
and trackpoint nub between the G, H, and B:

[http://pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PCK&Sc...](http://pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PCK&Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=EnduraPro)

------
dchuk
damn, I just switched to a microsoft 4000 ergo keyboard. I'm tempted to order
one of these now because I don't think I'm sold on the ergo arrangement yet
(I've only had it about a week though). Wish I saved the box for that keyboard
:/

Anyone used both and can convince me not to order one of the Das'?

~~~
gchpaco
I don't own a Das; instead I have two of Unicomp's (<http://pckeyboard.com>)
keyboards. Either one is miles more comfortable to type on than anything else
I've ever used, most certainly including the Microsoft ergo keyboards. That
said I should note that I'm partial to making a hell of a racket typing and I
really really like the buckling spring action. If for some reason you don't
want to sound like an entire rifle company out for a day at the range the
quiet Cherry switches are pretty much the only game in town, and you might as
well get them from Das as from anywhere else.

------
user24
Stop Sopa! Black out your keyboard!

------
jergosh
Only ships to the US? Lame.

~~~
maggit
They have a "Where to buy"-link near the top right corner:
<http://www.daskeyboard.com/where-to-buy/>

I've successfully bought a Das Keyboard from GetDigital:
<http://www.getdigital.de/products/Das_Keyboard_Model_S>

It even let me brush up on my German :)

------
aymeric
This keyboard is so noisy that my coworkers wanted to kill me...

~~~
sp332
Have you tried a keyboard with the MX Cherry Browns, instead of Blues? They
say they have very similar tactile response, but the browns don't "click" so
loudly. <http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional-silent/>

~~~
jbl
The browns are still pretty noisy for a quiet office environment. My vote for
a mechanical keyboard with good feel that won't disturb workmates is the Topre
line.

