
Young and Educated in Europe, but Desperate for Jobs - danso
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/world/europe/youth-unemployement-in-europe.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimesworld&_r=0
======
katelynsills
There's the general rule that the more restrictions you have on how employers
can hire, how they can pay, and how they can fire, the less likely they are to
hire more people and take risks in hiring. This means being less likely to
hire the young, the old, those without a spotless record, and even women who
may start families.

I'm not by any means an expert on labor in Europe, but it seems like the
obvious way to increase the number of jobs, especially to those who need them
most, is to allow employers more flexibility. Instead of artificially creating
stratification (some people having no jobs or very temporary jobs, and some
having incredibly cushy ones) we would have many more low paying jobs in the
middle.

~~~
e12e
So your solution is more of what's described in the second paragraph:

"it was a rare flicker of opportunity after a series of temporary positions,
applications that went nowhere and employers who increasingly demanded that
young people work long, unpaid stretches just to be considered for something
permanent." ?

~~~
gametheoretic
You don't do your camp any favors with this category of response.

~~~
e12e
I might have been unclear, the question wasn't entirely rhetorical. In my
experience "more flexibility" generally leads to weakening of labour rights,
more part time, more time limited contracts -- and more of the things featured
in the above comment.

In short, in a buyers market (employers purchasing wage labour) -- without
regulation, the buyers hold all the keys (starve or work - that's not a
choice).

If you have any examples of de-regulation of a labour market benefiting the
majority of the population over say a ten or twenty year period, I'd love to
hear about it.

~~~
gametheoretic
I, too, might have been unclear. You were citing a description of a highly,
highly regulated labor market as an example of what might come to pass were
that market deregulated.

>If you have any examples of de-regulation of a labour market

Because that ever happens. C'mon.

> buyers market (employers purchasing wage labour)

That's not what 'buyer's market' means.

~~~
e12e
>> buyers market (employers purchasing wage labour) > > That's not what
'buyer's market' means.

That parentheses explain what I mean by market (the labour market) -- was that
unclear? The rest of that sentence tried to highlight what "A situation in
which supply exceeds demand, giving purchasers an advantage over sellers in
negotiations" generally means in the labour market.

If one side might loose a few days of productivity by holding out for a better
deal, and the other side will loose their home and starve -- that's a pretty
uneven balance of power.

------
Yuuyake
I don't want to sound like a douche, but... I call bullshit! "[...] master’s
degree in sociology" \- I really wanted to stop reading after this line.
There's a handful of jobs that require only sociological skill and in most
cases they don't pay that much. Anyone who doesn't know that should blame only
themselves, not the system or the employers. Go google "what can a sociology
major do". Even Berkley's (which I find to be a decent school at least)
sociology dept's website clearly states that sociology is only an addition to
some other skills.

Not sure about other countries but in my homeland sociology studies are piss
easy and that's why they are so popular. People just want to have it all with
zero effort. To the really small % of people who study it because they truly
love it: 1) you either have to be the best at it in that case 2) if you're
not, then get a different job. Not everyone can make a living doing what they
love the most. I love gaming but I doubt I could ever get to the point where
I'd be able to make a living from it.

No jobs for people with a nursing degree, what?? All over Europe there's a
shortage of nurses! I'd love to read the whole story of that person. What she
tried, what she did, where did she apply etc. It's a hard job, that's why
there are shortages, but if you decided to go into a nursing school I'd guess
you know that.

No one will hire you only because you have a degree, geez don't people know
that? Nowadays everyone can get a degree! Btw. why didn't they mention in the
article any university names? Anyway even if you, somehow, graduate from a
distinguished uni but did nothing extra, or did not find what you really want
to to then again you should only blame yourself.

As a European who did an exchange in France I met many Italians and Spanish
during my life. They were usually quite hard working, focused and new what
they want from life. And according to them they were the exceptions.
Apparently the majority people from those countries recently prefer to party
than work hard.

Young people seriously should stop acting like princesses and princes, taking
things for granted just because they are _special_ and instead try to do
something by themselves.

~~~
apsec112
"Anyone who doesn't know that should blame only themselves, not the system or
the employers."

Since these kids were literally wearing diapers, every single authority in
their lives has told them: Go to college. Go to college and you will get a
good job. Go to college and you will have made it. Go to college and you won't
flip burgers. Go to college and you are a success.

"In the 21st century, one of the best anti-poverty programs is a world-class
education." \- Barack Obama, State of the Union 2010

"Does The College Major Matter? Not Really" \- New York Times editorial
([http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/does-the-
colle...](http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/does-the-college-
major-matter-not-really/))

"Your College Major Is a Minor Issue, Employers Say" \- Wall Street Journal
Careers ([http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2013/04/10/your-college-major-
is...](http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2013/04/10/your-college-major-is-a-minor-
issue-employers-say/))

(etc, etc, etc, you can go on forever)

It is the height of audacity to lie to a _child_ , literally every day, for
literally twenty years, and then blame _them_ for not being cynical enough to
realize it.

~~~
Yuuyake
People will lie to you, that's how people are. It's your parents'/family's
role to guide you. Furthermore, as I took the article it's even the bright and
"oh so special" younglings that cannot find a job. If they are so smart they
should realise that something is wrong.

If you believe everything you're being told without thinking about it and/or
making some research of your own then it's, again, your own fault.

~~~
FLUX-YOU
The goalposts were clearly moved in a big and sudden way. Parental wisdom
became worthless at worst and uncertain at least because no one knew what the
economy was going to do (least of all parents that weren't economically
aware). They continued with the same advice while the landscape changed
drastically. Even if high school graduates did their own research, they
would've still needed to be able to predict the outcome of an world economy
after a huge shake-up -- how is someone fresh out of high school supposed to
do that?

I mean, I agree that a Sociology degree isn't known for 6 figures, but before
things went tits up, it would've likely gotten you a decent office job
somewhere -- certainly you're capable of more than bagging groceries and
stocking shelves. A Master's used to convey a certain amount of willingness to
work, learn, and accomplish something. It was a certain amount of mold-able
competency that transformed depending on what position you were given.

Now it _suddenly_ isn't worth as much. It would've been another thing entirely
if this was a slow shift, which would give society, businesses, and students
time to adjust. Now that general usefulness is trash and you're better off
partying to network.

The next generation will be able to research what happened, and they'll get
more cautious advice, but that wisdom came at a pretty high price.

~~~
eshvk
> how is someone fresh out of high school supposed to do that?

This is what confuses me about the American system. Unlike say the system in
India, you lot have an option to choose a different major. I can understand a
high schooler who has no exposure to the world making a stupid mistake. I did,
doing a degree in something I had no interest in. However, I pivoted fairly
early doing enough projects and whatever to show that I had an avid
interest/inclination in what I wanted to get into. As a person going to school
in America, there is an incredibly rich set of options to you. Hell, you can,
if you work hard enough, have your cake (take as many liberal arts courses as
can satisfy your soul) and still eat too (take hard science courses).

> I mean, I agree that a Sociology degree isn't known for 6 figures, but
> before things went tits up, it would've likely gotten you a decent office
> job somewhere -- certainly you're capable of more than bagging groceries and
> stocking shelves. A Master's used to convey a certain amount of willingness
> to work, learn, and accomplish something. It was a certain amount of mold-
> able competency that transformed depending on what position you were given.

LOL. Seriously, this is a case of closing your eyes to how the world works. If
you can't be arsed to do your research and figure out the dollar value of
getting a degree, talk to people who have got the degree like a year before
you (instead of some old people who think that being personable and having
useless bullshit like "mold-able competency" actually means anything), you
have proven yourself incompetent to get any sort of a job.

~~~
htns
All you needed to do was to predict where the financial crisis will hit! How
can anyone be unemployed?

I find the comments here pretty amusing.

~~~
eshvk
Yes because that is exactly what I am saying. Yup, it is not like before the
financial crisis every person who spent X years in school was immediately
employable. By the way, nice strawman.

------
magnusss
Why aren't the apparent plethora of young, educated, and motivated workers
starting more companies, rather than hoping in vain for existing companies to
hire them? Or, asking the question another way, is there something about the
legal or financial structure of Southern Europe that makes it harder or
riskier to found a business than elsewhere?

~~~
dingaling
1\. Lack of market: retail spending is still occasionally dropping month-on-
month.

2\. Lack of liquidity: what bank, already in perilous condition, is going to
lend to these young people?

3\. Lack of savings to compensate for ( 2 )

Spanish financial indicators: [http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/consumer-
spending](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/consumer-spending)

~~~
gametheoretic
Reports on gender issues were going to be a tough sell regardless.

------
redwood
Sad stuff. Somehow I have hope that things will work out: that it won't all be
a waste, that people's minds won't just atrophy. That this will be a
opportunity to think different, get creative and scrappy, and focus on non-
financial pursuits. But who knows. Maybe this really is a societal-level rot
that will linger into older age... I sure hope not.

~~~
jpelker
If these kids (and their parents) begin to not be able to afford to eat or
house themselves, they'll likely riot and steal/destroy their countries.

At that point, what will they have to lose?

------
ajuc
It's basically the same in USA (places with jobs and without), but it's the
same country, and internal migration is not considered a big deal.

And university is espansive, so people that doesn't expect to gain enough by
graduating don't go there. In manu EU countries university education is free.

------
lukasm
I like how the title indicates that educated = job. Correlation Does Not Imply
Causation

~~~
lsc
From one perspective, the title seems to be juxtaposing "educated" and
"jobless" to say that these folks worked hard and got an education, and still
are jobless. This angle works on several levels; you know, the 'protestant
work ethic' would say these are good people because they worked hard to get
through college. From a capitalist perspective, well, traditionally you go to
college with the expectation that you will be able to get a white-collar job
afterwards, and if that is no longer true, well, it's big, important news.

From another perspective, the title says you should care about these folks
because they are educated, middle-class kids, just like you or your kids. The
idea here is that your average upper-middle class person probably doesn't have
as much sympathy for the unemployed people in the lower classes. But if you
frame the situation as general downward social mobility for the middle
classes, it looks a lot more alarming (I mean, to other middle-class people)

~~~
lukasm
True that, but my point is, it's really bad that journalist are trying
preserve a false assumption that college is a proxy to a white-collar job.
Kids are constantly hearing that they have to do good in school so later on
they will be rewarded. That's intuitive, but not true. I managed to change my
thinking on 3rd year. I stopped optimizing for high grade if there is no
value. It's hard if you hear for 20 years the opposite.

~~~
lsc
>True that, but my point is, it's really bad that journalist are trying
preserve a false assumption that college is a proxy to a white-collar job

I thought the journalist was directly pointing out that this assumption was
not as true as it once was. They were pointing that out in a very "this is
shocking" kind of way... but it /is/ shocking. The vast majority of students
go to college thinking that they will be able to get a white-collar job upon
graduation. The only way that thinking will change is with more articles like
this.

The other thing to consider is that there is still an extremely strong
correlation between having a degree and having a white-collar job. We can
argue on what direction causation runs, but the correlation is inarguable.

~~~
pjmlp
There are many jobs that you won't even be considered without a degree.

Her example is one of them. In most European countries, nursing is a degree
that shares part of the education with medicine.

~~~
lsc
Yeah. Speaking as someone who doesn't have a degree, I'm not sure that I'd get
much any of a raise as a SysAdmin/systems person if I got a degree; probably
not any more of a raise than I'd get for that much more experience, anyhow.
But a degree would help a lot if I decided to change jobs, or even get a
professional licence of some sort. For example, getting a real-estate licence,
something I've considered in the course of researching my own investments, is
possible without a degree, but more difficult.

A degree would also help me move into management in another person's company,
the traditional upwards path for aging computer operators.

A degree would also come in handy if I want to emigrate to a first-world
country before I become rich. Again, it's not required, but the process is
rather longer and more nasty without a degree.

I'm not saying a degree has zero value. It doesn't have infinite value,
though, and the cost of a degree is not zero.

To bring the conversation back to me, I got out of high school in '97\. I
immediately got a really good programming/sysadmin job because, well, it was
1997. They were hiring any idiot with a pulse. I was able to turn that
opportunity into a solid reputation with solid experience that I was able to
use to remain employed through the crash. If I had gone to college, and got
out in 2001? I bet I would have been unemployed for another five years after
graduating. The job market for people with my skillset was brutal.

I think that if you have a good chance to start your career? you should take
it, even if that means delaying school. Of course, if you have a chance to go
to school for free, and that chance will go away if you don't take it right
away? you should take that, too... but I think the former is more common than
the latter. Usually, if you can go to school now, you can go to school four
years from now, but it's dramatically easier to start your career when there
is a lot of demand in your field.

Now, I'm mostly speaking of finances. there is a psychological aspect to
school, too. There is value to learning how to fit in, but again, that value
is not infinite, and the cost is not zero.

------
morgante
I wonder what's the situation like for software developers and engineers?
Equally dire, or would learning to program be a way out for them?

~~~
bronbron
Programming's not a panacea for everyone's problems, you know?

I mean, I get that you're just coming from a place of decency and trying to
help, but suppose tomorrow every unemployed person decides to become a
programmer - does that really help? Or does it just make the market for
programmers worse?

I get that you're trying to help, but there are systemic problems to be
resolved here.

~~~
morgante
> Programming's not a panacea for everyone's problems, you know?

Yes, I do. Obviously (and, from a selfish perspective, thankfully) not
everyone is inclined or able to learn programming.

I'm more interested in how counter-cyclical programming is. Does it allow you
to weather a tough labor market, or are young developers seeing similar
difficulties in Europe?

~~~
miahi
You can find work as a young programmer, but the wages are way lower than
before. $7/hour as a programmer with a BS is no fun. Before the crisis, a
college grad would expect at least 3 times more in Spain, but I know a few
experienced programmers who left Spain because they could not find any kind of
job to pay more than €1500-2000/month.

