
Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules - felixbraun
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-emissions/german-court-backs-city-bans-on-diesel-cars-idUSKCN1GA2XD
======
TheLostOne
As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never
will, hurray!

Next: Petrol cars please.

Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase,
noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted
to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be
wonderful.

[1] [https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-
Parking/dp/193236496X](https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-
Parking/dp/193236496X)

~~~
jacquesm
And the German economy would crash, but never mind that. Before you ban all
petrol cars you will first need something that can replace them because not
everybody is in a position to use public transport both due to capacity, speed
and door-to-door elements.

~~~
TheLostOne
Economy will crash in the next 5 years either way with mass replacement of
people by AI (call centers, taxi drivers, truck drivers, ...).

Edit: Plus German car industry will crash either way because most people work
not in building cars, but motors, electronics, transmission etc. which are
mostly redundant with electric cars.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Just like it did during the industrial revolution with mass replacement of
people by machines.

~~~
pixl97
Quite a few Luddites starved during those times.

------
yostrovs
It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German
government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because
it's more efficient.
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5f-11e7-a8a4-0a1e63a52f9c)

The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources.
Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about
same carbon as before giant investments in solar, electricity is four times
the price as in US, plus they now have to buy from France cause they don't
produce enough.

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/10/10/why-
arent-renewables-decreasing-germanys-carbon-emissions/amp/)

~~~
guardian5x
Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany
exports more energy than it imports. ([https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-
media/news/2016/germa...](https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-
media/news/2016/germanys-electricity-exports-surplus-brings-record-revenue-of-
over-two-billion-euros.html)) Also the popularity of diesel might have other
factors as well.

~~~
yostrovs
Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the
advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency?

Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate.
Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

~~~
olex
> slow to accelerate

Have you driven a modern diesel? At lower speeds, they easily beat similar-
displacement petrol cars off the line with superior torque. They are weaker at
high speeds, but in normal (especially city) driving, a diesel is usually
faster than a petrol.

But yeah, their main factor for popularity is the cost per km. They use less
fuel than petrol engines, and the fuel is less expensive (in Germany). This is
offset by higher road tax and insurance somewhat, but for commuters and others
who drive a lot (>~20000km per year) diesels are a much more cost effective
option in Germany than anything else.

~~~
Svip
Diesel isn't that cost efficient actually, even if you drive a lot. Diesel are
more expensive to maintain due to regulations, plus diesel cars tend to be
more expensive their petrol counterparts. Moreover, there is depreciation,
which tend to be worse for diesel cars, because they are valued less on the
second hand market (fairly or unfairly).

On average, you should expect to drive at least 150.000+ km before you've
broken even on a diesel car with its petrol counterpart.

People only look at fuel consumption and fuel prices, but maintenance and
depreciation are actually one's biggest loss on a car purchase. And in general
petrol comes out on top.

~~~
mywittyname
The premium of diesel engines over petrol is one of the key reasons that we
don't get many in the USA (the other issue being emissions). Bob Lutz, former
GM CEO, was a big proponent of diesel but repeatedly acknowledged that it
doesn't make sense in the USA. The market for people willing to pay the $5,000
premium (in 2007 dollars, mind you) was very small. Americans don't appreciate
just how cheap cars in their region are.

GM did manage to get a diesel Cruze into the USDM market, and keep it here,
but it's low-margin and not a huge seller. A manual diesel Cruze starts at
about $25,000 (compared to $17,000 for the base). So it is basically slotted
as an "enthusiast" model, just not a high-performance one like Ford and Honda
would offer.

------
InTheArena
European law has been very tilted towards Diesel engines for a long time. As
the recent VW debacle proved - oversight was quite lax compared to the US
diesel regs. This laxness was the result of the influence of BMW, Mercedes and
VW and the outcome of years of corporate lobbying. It’s a good first step, but
they have further to go.

Despite the rhetoric, Germany has also been very restrictive with Tesla,
viewing it as a challenge to its crown jewel automotive companies (no credits,
no additional supercharger stations, much harsher reading of laws to protect
their own industries).

You know that Germany will be serious when that changes.... (or the German car
companies will have finally caught up to Tesla’s battery power and power
train)...

~~~
jacquesm
A big part of the problem here is the the EU was focusing on CO2 rather than
NOx and that diesels are actually really good in the CO2 department.

~~~
fyfy18
Fun fact: NOx emmisions actually help to counter global warming, as they break
down methane particles, which is one of the worst greenhouse gases.

------
paganel
Partially related: "Fiat Chrysler is reportedly ditching diesel cars by 2022"
([https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17053362/fiat-chrysler-
di...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17053362/fiat-chrysler-diesel-car-
end-production-2022)). Diesel sales are collapsing all over Europe, I think
one of the latest reports puts the number of new Diesel cars sold in France at
just under 50%, while they used to be at 75% four or five years ago. The
writing is on the wall.

------
albertgoeswoof
I am so confused by government policy here in the UK. Right now I'm looking at
a 5 year old used Diesel car with £0 road tax and 70+ MPG for about 10k GBP.

My current Petrol engine costs £130/annum road tax, and only gets 30-40 MPG, I
can also buy petrol cars with road tax of £240-500/annum (based on emissions)

But if I buy the Diesel, it could be banned or worthless in a few years,
because of these types of policies. So what is the government telling me to
purchase?

I can't buy an electric car because I only have on street parking so there's
nowhere to charge it, and decent electric cars aren't really available at the
10k mark yet.

~~~
jk563
I could be wrong, but I would guess that your quandary isn't to do with the
policy as such, but the way it's been gamed by car manufacturers. That diesel
would likely have a much higher road tax if its actual emissions were taken in
to account, and not just the lab-based ones.

Get a petrol car pay the tax would be my recommendation. Depends on what you
need too. My 5-year-old petrol Fiesta was <£10k and is £0 road tax.

~~~
mywittyname
> That diesel would likely have a much higher road tax if its actual emissions
> were taken in to account, and not just the lab-based ones.

Is NOx a consideration for road taxes? If not, that's the issue. Diesels do
emit less CO2 than gasoline and AFAIK, no auto companies were "cheating" CO2
emissions, just NOx.

~~~
jk563
Good point, I was wrong. The road tax policy should be updated to take NOx
levels in to account. The recommendation remains :)

------
neverminder
Eastern Europe will be flooded with those cars now.
[http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-dirty-diesel-cars-en-route-
for...](http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-dirty-diesel-cars-en-route-for-eastern-
europe/a-40224565)

~~~
madez
The EU comission threatened to fine Germany for the air pollution caused by
these cars. I expect they'd treat other EU countries the same.

~~~
bergie
Already happening:

> The EU’s top court ruled that Poland has persistently breached European
> standards on air pollution, which causes nearly 50,000 deaths in the country
> each year.

[https://www.ft.com/content/b1d8794a-17d8-11e8-9e9c-25c814761...](https://www.ft.com/content/b1d8794a-17d8-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640)

~~~
kgabis
It's not caused by old cars (for the most part), but rather by people burning
cheap coal in inefficient furnaces to keep warm during winter (see "energy
poverty").

------
rerx
Note that this ruling is only to clarify that cities are allowed to implement
car bans on their own without a federal directive in place.

Now we will have to wait and see if the cities will actually be sued into
having to implement such bans.

~~~
thesimon
>Now we will have to wait and see if the cities will actually be sued into
having to implement such bans.

They already have been forced to implement such bans by the lower court. The
cities appealed, but as decided today were unsuccessful in doing so.

~~~
rerx
Well, some have.

------
Arnt
The backstory here: EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if
it's too high. German law prohibits various kinds of discrimination. For
example, a simple ban on half the cars on Monday and the other on Tuesday
would bother large plumber companies much less than independent plumbers who
need a carful of tools and have only one car. What actions are the cities
permitted to take, and/or required.

~~~
thesimon
>EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if it's too high

And it mandates that for around 15 years now.

One of the cities (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits for at
least 8 years now.

It's quite strange that it took so long to finally force the city to do
something effective.

~~~
odiroot
> (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits

Funnily enough multiple car factories are based here.

~~~
woodpanel
True, Stuttgart as the biggest cluster of German car manufacturing has been
the epicentre of the German pollution-debate (that was based around
particulate matter, not NOX).

The Diesel has become somehow the victim of this (sadly, since as mentioned by
other commenters here, Diesel cars have their advantages).

The reason Stuttgart is Germany's pollution capital has almost nothing to do
with the Diesel but:

\- its topography, being a city almost completely surrounded by hills, thus
unusually hot and windless for a German city

\- the upper class areas on the hillside/slopes are the main polluters with
houses dating from ca 1900 and/or re-equipped with pellet heating systems that
were subsidized because of energy footprint while being even worse pollution-
wise than even older heaters

Both of these points are validated by the fact, that it's not the weekends
when the pollution calms but its the winters when there is almost a daily
pollution warning - its when the rich people heat.

Even the plaintiffs in the other recent (particulate matter focused) important
German pollution case complained that a Diesel ban does nothing for the
pollution situation: The main source for car based emissions aren't the
engines - but the wheels.

------
adrianN
Excellent news for the air quality in German cities. We've been blatantly
breaking German and EU law for years now.

------
dingo_bat
Is this backed by real science? I was under the impression that modern diesels
were highly efficient and quite within the acceptable emission standards.

~~~
cwal37
There's a big difference between general "emissions" which a lot of people
take colloquially to just mean greenhouse gases (and CO2 in particular with
combustion engines), and then the small particulates and other things (like
NOx) that create worse local air conditions[1]. Most "modern" diesels in use
do still have the latter problem. I think at the very cutting edge, if you
maintain a very good filter and operate in favorable conditions you can cut
those emissions dramatically, but as far as I know it isn't widespread among
the personal diesel fleet.

[1] [http://theconversation.com/fact-check-are-diesel-cars-
really...](http://theconversation.com/fact-check-are-diesel-cars-really-more-
polluting-than-petrol-cars-76241)

~~~
brownbat
Most local air pollution, counterintuitively, doesn't even come from exhaust.

Wear on tires, brakes, and the road each contribute more individually.

There's another process called resuspension that dwarfs even these. Cars grind
down large particles sitting on the road, making heavy particles light enough
to float in the air. Then the cars' wake kicks those newly light particles
into the air, suspending them in the air.

That process is driven by vehicle weight, size, and aerodynamics, and
contributes about two-thirds of the particulates from all vehicle sources.

One of the interesting takeaways from all that is that average vehicle weight
can be massively important to local air conditions (no pun intended).

I think there's still some debate about the exact relationship between weight
to PM output, but lighter frames and smaller vehicles are probably a good
idea:

[http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160418-pm10.html](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160418-pm10.html)

~~~
bergie
Related to PM output, here is a crowdsourced effort to collect air quality
data around the world:

[https://maps.luftdaten.info/#2/0.0/0.0](https://maps.luftdaten.info/#2/0.0/0.0)

Building and deploying your own sensor is pretty easy:
[https://bergie.iki.fi/blog/microflo-particulate-
sensors/](https://bergie.iki.fi/blog/microflo-particulate-sensors/)

------
Angostura
A correction to the headline; its only older diesels, not all diesels.

From way down the article:

> Cars that meet Euro-4 emissions standards could be banned from Stuttgart
> from next January, while Euro-5 vehicles should not be banned until Sept. 1,
> 2019, four years after the introduction of the latest Euro-6 standard.

If you have a diesel with Ad Blu designed to catalytically remove NOx, you
should be OK for now.

------
andrewla
Can anyone more familiar with this case comment on what exactly happened here?

It sounds like two private organizations, DUH (Deutsche Umwelthilfe) and
ClientEarth, sued a couple of cities (Munich, Stuttgart, and Dusseldorf,
possibly among others), saying they had to improve air quality. This was,
apparently, on the basis that the cities had illegally high levels of NOx --
I'm not certain on what basis this was illegal, whether German or EU
regulations.

Munich offered a ban, which everyone was happy with. Stuttgart and Dusseldorf
attempted to offer a mitigation strategy, and DUH and ClientEarth sued again
saying that the mitigation was insufficient, and the judge ruled that they
only a ban would suffice.

The cities appealed, apparently on the basis that they were not legally
allowed to impose such a ban(?) and now, a higher court has ruled that they
are legally allowed to impose such a ban.

~~~
megy
Great summary. This is so good to see, one of the advantages of living in
Europe.

------
blubb-fish
awesome news - first of all public transportation in any town with more than a
hundred thousand inhabitants is good enough that nobody needs to use a car
except for very specific cases. of course if everybody would switch to ÖPNV
then the capacity would be maxed out - so the conclusion is increasing
availability of public transportation.

also the way parts of government (mostly those rooted in Bavaria) attempted
together with VW, Audio etc. to weasel their way out of taking responsibility.
the testing applied was stupid and lacking realism - but nonetheless they
programmed software that detects a test and adjusts the motor's inner
workings. that's beyond benefiting of stupidity - that is criminal.

It feels great, great, great - I hope this will strengthen research and
development for and of electric vehicles.

------
enothereska
Wouldn't it be great if Tesla kicks these cheaters in the bin and wins the car
race (like the iPhone did vs. the other phones)? Pity producing cars isn't as
fast as manufacturing an iPhone. Germany's industry is in real trouble, looks
like they were cheating.

~~~
megy
What would be really great if we could get rid of cars all together, spend all
that money on an awesome PT system, and convert 80% of roads into parks and
other uses. Make suburbs actually nice places to live.

------
Shivetya
I assume they are removing cars and buses making use of this tech first as
they are far more likely to be dirty that cars. Even the cheating VW cars were
still magnitudes cleaner than the immediate previous generation.

I think they are going to find their pollution problem is nearly as bad and
will need to make more difficult choices rather than relying on fear of a
partial truth. It isn't just diesel cars making their cities dirty. As stated,
the change made to even the cheating cars would have demonstrated such if it
were just cars

~~~
Brakenshire
Buses, HGV's and all other large vehicles actually tend to run okay on diesel,
because they are large and expensive enough to carry and pay for the necessary
equipment to reduce NOx and PM. It's small cars in particular where diesel
just doesn't work.

