
We are leaving the Apple App Store and all its problems - bangonkeyboard
https://exactscan.com/MAS/
======
dijit
Actually; now that I think about it, from a user perspective I also really
dislike the App Store.

I used to _love_ it, I would check weekly for new things, maybe there was some
new shiny (often beautiful) program to do something really well. The
experience was on the 'better than passable' side, nobodies favourite
interface maybe, but certainly not terrible.

But I actually avoid the App Store these days, both on MacOS and my iPhone. I
never really noticed but I just slowly stopped installing new applications
from there (unless sent there by a company website in the case of iOS); this
was around the time that Apple Music was being foisted down my throat. I'm not
sure if there's a correlation there.

I always suspected there were dark patterns at play in the App Store though.
Although every program is reviewed, probably only 2% or less of them become
popular, and if you are popular, boy, are you popular. the design paradigm is
self-fulfilling. ("most popular"/"highest grossing").

~~~
jen729w
I’ve also stopped “check[ing] weekly for new things”, but that’s because I
don’t need any new things! Do you?

I don’t have Instagram but I imagine it’s a bit like the App Store. I’m
waiting somewhere. I’m bored. I know, I’ll check for a shiny thing. Oh, no
shiny thing. That was disappointing.

To compare, do you go to the internet regularly and check for new things? I
don’t think this is the App Store’s fault. It’s not on Apple to constantly put
new shiny useful software in the App Store — it’s on developers. And I’m not
blaming developers. Making new shiny software is hard. There’s already a whole
bunch of software. If you have a problem, chances are it’s already been
addressed.

Constantly shiny + new ~== a good App Store.

(~== Not necessarily equal to. Did I just invent that?)

~~~
Humdeee
> (~== Not necessarily equal to. Did I just invent that?)

Instead of inventing new operators in your sentences, you can also just stick
with plain English

~~~
Tronno
On HN I occasionally see programming conventions used in otherwise normal
writing. E.g. "at $big_corp we like to use $process".

I can't stand it. It's the linguistic equivalent to wearing a bowtie and
pocket protector.

~~~
reaperducer
Almost as bad as people on HN who start each comment with "I mean" or end each
question with "no?"

------
Illniyar
They kind of bury the lead here. They can't have their app on the appstore
because:

" While we still updated our applications in time, Apple did not review them
for the AppStore, and instead rejected them first for a crash (sigh!), and
later for requiring UI changes, including showing a Save As panel for each
generated file. Now this may not sound like much, this is a serious issue for
a document scan application which easily generates hundreds of files in an
hour, and thousands of files a day, with file names automatically generated,
either thru counters, or advanced auto-id features, such as barcodes."

Even if Apple later took back the rejection I bet this was the last straw.

~~~
Razengan
> _instead rejected them first for a crash (sigh!)_

As a user, I'm glad Apple did that.

As a developer, the one thing that I do dislike about Apple, is the dismal
state of their documentation on how to actually take advantage of all their
platforms' features. I have to begrudgingly admit that their nemesis Microsoft
has always been way ahead in that department.

~~~
Someone1234
In context though it is still Apple's issue:

> After releasing the Catalina Golden Master build to developers on October
> the 3rd, we immediately finished fixing any new crash and issue we could
> find over the weekend. In our opinion, leaving developer just four (4!) days
> over a weekend with a public release on October the 7th is not very
> professional. While we still updated our applications in time, Apple did not
> review them for the AppStore, and instead rejected them first for a crash
> (sigh!), [...]

~~~
jldugger
Catalina had been available to the public for testing since like WWDC; unless
these were late breaks only found in GM, it's a tough pill to swallow that
these urgent bugs couldn't have been addressed before GM shipped.

~~~
semiotagonal
Maybe, but prior to the "Golden Master" release are you really testing your
stuff, or Apple's?

Leaving such a small window between Apple getting its act together with the
GM, and a hard deadline for third parties to get their act together, is rough.

~~~
rstupek
Yes it would be the responsible thing to do as a developer to test your stuff
on the OS before it comes out.

------
mlang23
As a user, I am pretty happy about most of the negative points listed in this
article. Yes, manual reviews are my firewall against too much scamming. I dont
want app providers to notify me about their upcoming company party. It is
already fishy enough that some app providers use their own notification system
to push ads. And dont get me started on paying for updates! What comes next,
paying for firmware updates for devices I already own? I think the guys behind
this article really have to rethink their attitude.

~~~
epse
Paying for updates has been the standard software model for ages, and with
good reason. It still takes money to update and add new features. It still
takes time. To some extent new users can pay for this, but then developers
have to severely limit the time spent on updates in order to nod spend too
much, or they risk not even making a profit on the first version.

That is why most "big" software packages these days are either subscription
based, or pay-per-update. We've all come to expect apps to get free updates,
but it's not a sustainable business model.

~~~
taurath
And Apple taking 30% of that... for what? Payment processing is a 4% thing.
It’s in the app developers interest to make it not have errors. It’s just for
access to the market. That is the only value Apple truly brings, outside of
the brand and a privacy commitment

~~~
dijit
People get hung up on apple having a 30% entrance fee, but that didn't come
out of nowhere.

I work in the video games industry and access to steam or other first parties
(Sony/Microsoft) is 30%, no negotiations.

You could argue that first parties such as sony/microsoft have subtle costs
involved such as printing of disks, but that's paid for before market by the
publisher.

The thing you pay for is: content distribution (in the case of digital
downloads such as steam), 'signing' and access to market.

~~~
jdnenej
The amount of value steam provides on top of payment processing and
distribution is immense. Valve basically single handedly created Linux gaming.
Their client is so many years ahead of everything else with the forums,
workshop, broadcast streaming, streaming to your tv, gamepad support and
gamepad virtualisation as well as a mountain of developer side APIs for things
like inviting friends to games.

Apples 30% would seem a lot more fair if it was possible to side load and
install alternative app stores

In comparison apples offering is little more than "we have a huge captive
audience on a proprietary system. Pay us or miss out on half of the market"

~~~
lilyball
Apple meanwhile created the entire OS and all of the developer APIs that your
apps rely on, including things like Metal that games rely on. And Apple gives
this all away for free.

~~~
jdnenej
That should be included in device cost. It is unacceptable that they prevent
users who paid for the device from installing programs outside of apples
walled garden

~~~
braythwayt
If we find Apple extracting rent from apps unacceptable, we look no further
than a mirror for the cause. We the public don’t want to pay full freight for
hardware.

Microsoft used to boast that they made more money from Apple systems than
Apple did. Google does that to Android device makers today.

If platform makers don’t extract rent, or compete with the developers they
court, they will look for other sources of revenue to stay profitable. I would
be aghast if Apple hardware came loaded with the kind of Junkware I recall
from the years I bought Windows hardware.

~~~
x0x0
Are you arguing Apple needs to juice their hardware profit margins? Because my
understanding is they're very healthy and the envy of the computing and mobile
phone industries.

The neglect of the mac app store feels of a piece with their utter neglect of
the mac platform. They seem to be treating it as a runout.

------
askafriend
I'm sorry but as a user, I trust my relationship with Apple more than I trust
random third party devs.

As a user, I _want_ Apple to lock down the system and make things hard for
developers.

As a developer, I empathize with my perspective as a user and build products
that take this into account.

~~~
pojntfx
As a user, I want my system to use containerization for me to not worry about
where I get my apps from. You know, like Flatpak does it. This isn't really an
argument for modern OSes such as desktop Linux anymore.

~~~
millstone
apt-get and yum and pacman and the rest do not enforce containerization.

~~~
mkl
No, but they get their software from a trusted central authority (unless you
choose to trust a third party repo and add it manually).

~~~
csunbird
Just like Apple Store ? (except the part where you can add 3rd party stores)

~~~
mkl
The apps there can't be vetted by others who want to (like they can for apt
etc.). The incentives are totally different: Apple Store is commercial, and
Apple takes 30%, hence the part about taking your choices away.

~~~
tekknik
Apple takes 30%, so it’s in their best interest to push as many apps through
as possible, yet the process is notoriously difficult. This shows you their
motivation is in the right place. A third party can be bought (see Amazon paid
reviews) to push something through. We’ve also seen cases in these public, but
“vetted”, repos where bad code was pushed without being caught until after the
fact (see NPM leftpad)

------
tzury
If you run your company smart, then publish your software in both places, your
own website and AppStore.

Users who trust direct relationship with you, will download directly, enjoy
better prices (30% commission omitted) and rapid updates.

At the same time you will not lose a whole marketshare of users for which
AppStore is the "go-to" address for buying software.

You can then skill up your SEO capabilities and optimize inbound traffic to
your preferred platform whatsoever.

If AppStore policy forbid having a parallel distribution platform, then
publish the same app with two different names.

~~~
panpanna
I think this is explicitly forbidden by app store rules.

It is definitely the case for the iOS app store anyway.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
You could create two versions, one crippled for the app store and another that
you actively market. There is no point giving Apple 30% if you are finding the
customers yourself.

~~~
parasubvert
You’re not allowed to create a crippled or discounted version per the App
Store rules.

You are allowed to make the same version available elsewhere and pocket the
margins.

This is what BBEdit has been doing for many years for example.

~~~
saagarjha
I know a number of apps that sell both on and off the App Store and cripple
the latter. Where does it say this is against the rules?

~~~
ajscanlan
What apps do this? How do they distribute on iOS without the App Store?

~~~
least
I think they're referring to MacOS app store here. Certain applications might
need access outside of the sandbox for certain features to work so a non-app
store version would have more functionality than the app store version.

------
cstrat
Firstly I want to say that as a user I hate using the Mac App Store - mainly
for all the reasons posted there.

There is one large benefit which is often forgotten. When I use the App Store
I don't need to worry about your website/database getting hacked or leaking my
personal data/credit card information. This is mostly avoided by indie
developers using Stripe or some other popular payment gateway, but it is still
a concern and annoyance that is removed by something like the App Store.

~~~
ncr100
This could be fixed by your Bank or VISA with e.g. virtual credit cards.

~~~
cstrat
That is true, but nothing I have access to right now (with one of the big 4
aussie banks)

------
etchalon
I completely understand why developers would find the restrictions of the App
Store ridiculous, time consuming, expensive, and frustrating.

But as a user, whenever I need an application, I always check to see if it's
available on the App Store first.

Because I can trust the App Store.

~~~
nxpnsv
I first check brew...

~~~
fit2rule
Yeah, this. MacOS is unusable without home-brew, especially cask. There is no
greater feeling than knowing you can blow away your system disk, come back and
re-install it, then add a "brew cask install .." stage to get all your apps
installed automatically.

If I had brew on iOS, I'd be more than happy. Alas, I don't want to jailbreak
though ..

~~~
pjmlp
Maybe unusable for those that think macOS is GNU/Linux with a pretty UI.

I never installed any of those alternative UNIX toolchains. Apple SDK + native
macOS tooling are more than enough.

~~~
ahbyb
>Maybe unusable for those that think macOS is GNU/Linux with a pretty UI.

This was the target of the WSL that Microsoft added to Windows. They won me.
GNU/Linux with good UI, good software support and that doesn't break every
month. It's like we're living in the future.

~~~
pjmlp
Yep, that is the main reason why WSL exists.

And as gateway drug into Azure as well, most likely.

I never had any use for SUA during all these years doing Windows development.

------
gumby
I like the App Store because it handles automatic updates pretty well. Then
again these days with sparkle, the apps I use do update, so it's not a big
advantage for Apple.

And how do I know sparkle works so well? Well whenever a dev has an app both
in the store and directly downloadable from their site I choose the latter.
The price is the same, the functionality is the same (or sometimes more) but
the dev gets 30% more. I've never heard one suggest that I download instead of
using the store so I assume Apple somehow contractually bars that.

I never use the store for discovery; duckduckgo works perfectly well.

All in all I thought the App Store would be a good idea for me as a user but
in the end it didn't add much. At least I think it got rid of some of those
crufty download sites.

~~~
moduspol
The sandboxing of apps is a nice benefit, though. I can be reasonably
confident apps won't conflict with each other and that they're interfacing
cleanly and minimally with the host OS.

Perhaps not the best example, but I set up Wireguard recently. On Linux, this
involves building and installing a kernel module, and directly modifying the
host's networking configuration. On Mac, I can install it from the App Store,
and I know any networking configuration is handled through Apple's high level
APIs (I've built a VPN-based Mac App Store app before).

Alternatively, you might install Tunnelblick, a Mac app that wraps OpenVPN and
is distributed outside the App Store. It'll end up running scripts like these,
as necessary to configure networking on the host: *
[https://github.com/Tunnelblick/Tunnelblick/blob/master/tunne...](https://github.com/Tunnelblick/Tunnelblick/blob/master/tunnelblick/client.4.up.tunnelblick.sh)

Nothing in that script is crazy--it's all necessary stuff if you're not
limiting yourself to the higher level APIs. But it doesn't take many apps
doing things of that complexity for totally justifiable reasons before you
start having issues.

~~~
catalogia
Isn't the wireguard implementation on MacOS a userland implementation? Seems
like a poor example to compare with the Linux version, which is technically
superior specifically because it requires a kernel module.

~~~
moduspol
The MacOS one must be a userland implementation because if it required kernel
modules, it wouldn't be able to be in the App Store. The only way to implement
a VPN on the App Store is to use the higher level APIs, as far as I know.

The Linux one may be "superior" in that it's able to process packets faster,
but the resulting user experience is quite different. If you have multiple VPN
apps, even including userspace ones like OpenVPN, the likelihood of all of
them reliably handling host OS interactions cleanly with regular usage over
time drops. They have to do the same kinds of things in that Tunnelblick
script I linked.

~~~
catalogia
> _" The Linux one may be "superior" in that it's able to process packets
> faster, but the resulting user experience is quite different."_

"Process packets faster" is one way of looking at it. Better battery life is
another way of framing it less dismissively.

(OpenVPN sucks and I don't really see how it's relevant to the discussion.)

------
mey
A rebranded version of Steam would be interesting here.

They support

    
    
      - automatic updates
      - build branches, included versions locked behind a code
      - DLC / Upgrades
      - coupons and bundling
      - cross platform publishing
      - selling of applications through third party channels
    

Doesn't solve the 30% issue though. Also don't believe they support any
recurring payment options.

~~~
perlpimp
Especially that they keep the 30% if someone refunds your app. If it would be
15% or less okay, but 30% and keep the proceeds? Seems to be sort of
straddling the legality line.

~~~
sschueller
Apple Does not refund the fee? That's insane! On top of that I need to pay
apple $100 per year to keep my app in the store. Even PayPal has been
refunding the transaction fees (at least until recently).

~~~
dijit
Not sure about the App Store, but I think the parent was talking about steam.

Steam does not refund the 30%.

~~~
whywhywhywhy
This must be very damaging to companies, especially with the PC gamer culture
of abusing things like refund systems as some forms of protest.

~~~
benologist
On the contary, gamers are relentlessly abused by shitty marketplaces who
proactively defraud their users.

Steam's history = sued by consumer watchdogs in Australia for denying ~20,000
lawful refunds. This went on worldwide for 10+ years of blatent theft and
shutting down user accounts for chargebacks, and they got away with it
everywhere except Australia - maybe 5% of their users and victims. This is the
only reason they offer refunds today, using dark patterns like "refunds are
outside of the steam client" to keep the fraudy little flame alive.

[https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/valve-australia-
fine-12...](https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/valve-australia-
fine-1202772984/)

GOG's refund policy is you must install additional software on your computer
so they can prove the game will open so they can deny a refund. This is an
illegitimate reason to deny refunds to consumers in many countries. It's a
fake refund policy that is "designed to not give refunds" which is exactly the
fraud that got Valve in trouble but continuing for years later.

[https://support.gog.com/hc/en-
us/articles/115000487189-GOG-C...](https://support.gog.com/hc/en-
us/articles/115000487189-GOG-COM-Money-Back-Guarantee-Policy)

------
deanclatworthy
I feel your pain, but I do worry that the end goal of OSX is to lock down the
system in the same way as iOS m, even if they say they’re developer (machine)
friendly. This could all come full circle for OP requiring read mission to the
App Store.

------
xhruso00
>disconnect from the users, which often simply post bad app reviews, or return
the app instead of reaching out to developer for actually support and fixes
This is so true. I am a dev and this is the most frustrating thing ever if you
do freemium model. Yesterday I got reply from customer on the app store: "I
DON'T have HOURS to look for free apps. You lie that you are FREE" PS: New Mac
App Store has a label "Offers In-Apps" under button GET

------
robomartin
We left the App Store behind years ago after just getting sick of Apple’s bs
and other issues. Could not be happier. Web apps are far easier to deal with,
we have full control and for our purposes it ends up being a better multi-
platform experience for our users.

Not for everyone, of course.

~~~
dijit
Quite ironic, given that Jobs' original intention was just that[0]

[0]: [https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-
the-...](https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-iphone-
no-third-party-native-apps/)

~~~
robomartin
That's interesting.

------
echelon
The fact that we have to have humans look at our software before we can go to
market in 2019 is absurd. I had high hopes for the future as a teen growing up
with Napster, Bittorrent, IRC, Trillian/Pidgin, and an explosive WWW. Look at
what a pinheaded mess everything has become.

Greed destroyed the open and experimental Internet.

~~~
lilyball
Painting this as "greed" is really quite ridiculous. Apple's 30% cut is
completely orthogonal to their human review. The human review is to try and
protect users and keep the app store a safe and trustworthy place to buy
software. As with all human curation, there are problems, but on the whole it
does keep the app store a remarkably safe place to acquire software.

> _I had high hopes for the future as a teen growing up with Napster,
> Bittorrent_

In light of the above, this is pretty funny, because Napster and Bittorrent
were great way to get viruses.

~~~
ramraj07
If the human review is the reason for the 30% cut why not charge a flat fee
per review? I doubt that's the reason for their cut.

~~~
close04
The reason Apple charges the 30% is probably partly because of the whole
infrastructure and services needed for the app-store, and mostly Apple's
desire to profit.

The reason developers pay the 30% is probably because there's no other channel
that offers access to such a huge market for free, and mostly because they
still profit.

Every app could be cheaper from the buyer's perspective. Maybe even yours.
Should or will they be cheaper? Probably not. The best price is the one
everyone complains about but are still willing to pay.

~~~
realusername
> The reason developers pay the 30% is probably because there's no other
> channel that offers access to such a huge market for free, and mostly
> because they still profit.

Because there's no choice you mean? When the developers have choice, on the
Mac or on Windows, they generally avoid the store. The AppStore still works on
mobile because they force it.

~~~
close04
> on the Mac or on Windows

Let's look at something closer to this situation rather than general purpose
computers. Mobiles work with different paradigms all around, especially when
compared to Windows (or Linux).

There are free alternatives to Google's Play Store and yet developers still
choose to pay Google's cut to have access to it. This tells me whatever
benefits the "official" app store provides on each platform outweigh the
disadvantages (costs) even when free alternatives are available.

> The AppStore still works on mobile because they force it.

Is there any solid reason to believe the AppStore only works because they
force it, while seeing the Play Store work just fine even with free
alternatives around? And users even go out of their way to get access to it.

~~~
realusername
> There are free alternatives to Google's Play Store and yet developers still
> choose to pay Google's cut to have access to it. This tells me whatever
> benefits the "official" app store provides on each platform outweigh the
> disadvantages (costs) even when free alternatives are available.

That's only because it's pretty hard for the casual user to install third-
party apps on Android and even with those artificial barriers, some popular
apps are available outside of it, I could mention Fortnite.

~~~
close04
It's not that hard to install an app from outside of the Play Store. It's just
that people are perfectly comfortable using the most easily accessible option.
In the HN bubble it's easy to overestimate how much people care about using
some other app store. Developers do because it impacts the bottom line but for
users to care it would have to be a pretty massive cost saving or some other
obvious drawback of the official store to care about alternatives.

How often did you wonder where your car parts come from? How easy is it to mod
your ECU? If there are "open source" parts for your fridge? Etc. - insert any
topic that's mostly transparent only for the people who actually care about it
and dive deeper into the technicalities. Chances are you care less about that
but a car tinkerer feels the same way you do about your app store and wonders
why you aren't protesting more.

------
ttcbj
I really wonder where Apple and specifically Tim Cook is in all this. I feel
like I see posts on HN almost daily that would warrant one of Jeff Bezos's
famous 'question mark emails'[1] from Tim Cook to someone within Apple. But I
see no evidence of this. I see no evidence of panic within apple that they
have lost the ability to delight customers and anticipate their needs
effectively.

How often do I see a similar level customer or developer pain (anguish really,
from supportive customers) regarding Amazon? How often do I see it regarding
Google? All these companies have so many resources, but Apple is the only one
that doesn't seem to be able to convert those resources into customer focus.
It's painful to watch. Where is Apple's board? It's really discouraging!

[1] [https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/5-years-later-jeff-
bezos-...](https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/5-years-later-jeff-bezos-just-
confirmed-jeff-bezos-question-mark-method-that-scares-heck-out-of-everyone-at-
amazon-heres-how-it-works.html)

~~~
ProAm
When you have billions in cash in the bank, and your future revenue is tied to
subscriptions Tim Cook simply doesn't care about this, its minutiae to your
bottom line. They can screw up for YEARS and still be a largely profitable
company.

~~~
ttcbj
Agreed, but are Tim Cook and the board really satisfied with that? If so, it's
a tragedy that so many resources are controlled by leaders who don't really
care that much.

~~~
asdf21
Every dollar is a vote..

------
pjmlp
> Apple takes 30% and that is not sustainable to run a company and pay
> salleries

Yet plenty of other companies do business on this model.

And where are they going to go? GNU/Linux? Good luck making a sustainable
business selling desktop software there.

~~~
telaelit
Leaving the AppStore doesn’t mean they can’t create MacOS applications. Most
MacOS applications aren’t even installed via the AppStore.

~~~
pjmlp
If they want to sell them on Catalina and newer devices they surely need to
follow similar steps anyway, while paying for infrastructure themselves.

[https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a](https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a)

~~~
scarface74
You don’t have to have a paid developer account for app signing, your app is
never reviewed by a human, and Apple doesn’t get a cut of your app sales.

So how is it “similar”?

~~~
pjmlp
> Please note that you must be the Account Holder of your development team in
> the Apple Developer Program.

[https://developer.apple.com/developer-
id/](https://developer.apple.com/developer-id/)

> You can only notarize apps that you sign with a Developer ID certificate. If
> you use any other certificate—like a Mac App Distribution certificate, or a
> self-signed certificate—notarization fails

[https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/notarizin...](https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/notarizing_your_app_before_distribution/resolving_common_notarization_issues)

That similar.

~~~
hellofunk
You can have an Apple developer account without paying for it, there’s a free
tier, and I think that is allowed for what your parent is referring to.

~~~
pjmlp
I have an Apple developer account...

~~~
hellofunk
So do I and I don't pay for it, and I can sign my apps. What's different in
your case?

~~~
pjmlp
So now developer certificates are available on the free tier?

~~~
hellofunk
For at least a few years, they have been. You can set a team and a signing
certificate in Xcode with a normal developer account, which does not require
any payment. To publish on the App Store, however, requires a paid account.

Sounds like you don't use that dev account much :)

------
telaelit
Besides some Apple applications, I don’t think I’ve ever used the AppStore to
install an application.

------
john-radio
This press release contains a lot of trivial errors.

> Compatible Scanner (in the _header menu_ )

should be "Compatibility"

> not sustainable to run a company and pay salleries

"salaries"

> it is not provide to provide

not "viable"?

> we think a paid upgrade is fair for continuously developing, improvements,
> and support

"for continuous development, improvements, and support"

> support a product indefinetly for free

"indefinitely"

> It creates an artificial frontier between users and developers.

"frontier" \- word choice. "barrier"?

> Developer can not inform users

"The developer" (or "A")

I'm not going to keep doing this because I'm sure that this comment would grow
too long.

It doesn't hurt to run a spell checker over your public facing material, you
know. I'm open to hearing this developer's criticism of Apple, but given the
lack of effort in publishing this simple press release, I'm not exactly
opposed to this additional "frontier" standing between their software and my
less-tech-savvy friends' and colleagues' Mac computers.

~~~
eloisant
The company is from Germany, possibly a single-person company.

He/she's not a native speaker, might not have access to a native speaker for
proofreading and a spell checker wouldn't pick up frontier vs barrier.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
Ignore the misspellings like "salleries",

"it is not provide to provide free updates forever" doesn't make sense in any
language.

The TL;DR is the first thing you see on the page. They author didn't proofread
the first paragraph.

 __* TL;DR

each manual update review by Apple causes delay and drama

AppStore does not support paid upgrades, only new App, in-App purchase or
subscriptions

Apple takes 30% and that is not sustainable to run a company and pay salleries

it is not provide to provide free updates forever

if you purchased our application this year we provide a direct license, if you
had it

significantly longer, we think a paid upgrade is fair for continuously
developing, improvements, and support __

 __ _

------
Humdeee
To the owner of this website: for the love of god, please get someone to
proofread your work.

~~~
zelienople
And also... light grey text on a white background? Are they trying to get us
to use their product just to read their website? I got the urge to scan it to
improve the contrast.

------
nembal
As a long Time multi platform user I have to say sometimes Apple’s approach on
centralized provisioning im thankful for the effort never to have to deal with
buggy/suspicious apps.

On the other hand, no competition lead to a point where the Appstore became an
authoritarian system where apple is free to play by the rules, or change them
as it sees fit for it's bottom line.

Only judging Tho, never helped. What would be the consequences of an app store
where - # alternative stores would be allowed like android # Apple would lover
prices # regional pricing options # free updates for paid content #
subscription for updates, distributed among apps user paid for already

Other ideas, comments are welcome.

------
pier25
Another problem for the user of all Apple stores (iOS, macOS, books, iTunes)
are refunds.

In Android you get an automatic refund when you uninstall a recently purchased
app. No questions asked.

In Steam you can ask for a refund if you have played less than 2 hours and you
bought the game less than 2 weeks ago. I've done this dozens of times and in
fact being able to refund a game that I don't like gives me confidence in
trying new games. Again, no questions asked.

Epic also has a similar refund policy as Steam. I only used it once though.

With Apple you might or not get a refund and much like App Store reviews there
is nothing you can do about it.

~~~
whatthesmack
I've experienced this several times, and it's very frustrating. I know you
_really_ can't do anything about it when you purchase with App Store credit,
but I'm curious... does anybody have experience with doing a credit card
chargeback in such a situation. It would be good to know if that can be a
successful means to resolving an issue where Apple puts up unjustified
roadblocks.

------
tenryuu
> not user or developer friendly

Well, with text contrast like that, neither is your website to be brutally
honest

------
ghego1
In my experience the app store (Mac iOS) has been terrible also for another
reason. Due to brexit we relocated from UK to another EU country. There was no
way to easily change the country associated with our account, we had to
request it and the first meaningful reply arrived 1 year later. This is
incredibly problematic from any business perspective (accounting, legal,
etc.).

------
vilius
I’m curious what’s the eventual revenue balance will look like few years after
they get off App Store. It can seem evil and 30% is a steep fee, but it is
also a very good distribution channel.

Hope they can find alternative ways to market and it beats those 30% and
related hassle.

------
pier25
I recently uploaded an update of a macOS app to the MAS. Apple rejected it
saying that I needed to remove some entitlements that were not used. Of course
I needed those entitlements but Apple didn't test the app properly.

Anyway I answered their rejection with the reasons why I needed those
entitlements. Silence for 2 days. I finally asked for an appeal to the review
board and in 1 hour the update was accepted and available in the MAS.

We lost 3 days because either Apple's automatic reviewing system failed, or
their human reviewers failed.

------
song
I always go out of my way to buy outside of the App Store. Sometimes the app
store version is crippled due to constraints from the app store so it just
makes sense. Other times, I still do that because I want more of my money to
go to the developer.

Oh, and for the few app I installed from the app store (usually because I had
no choice), I loathe getting a message saying "Blahblah couldn't be updated
because it was open"... It's the worst app updating scheme I've seen.

------
tempodox
> Not user nor developer friendly

Used to be that macOS had really decent experiences to offer for both users
and developers. Not any more. Now both are being tortured, just as with
Microsoft. I really don't see a big difference any more. When my computer
destroys my data and pumps off my money, I really don't give a shit whether
it's Apple or Microsoft doing the abuse.

------
alunchbox
Apple is just milking their over priced pile of garbage as long as they can.

This kind of reminds me of the situation long ago with Windows and how they
did not want to allow any other browsers expect IE on their OS. It took a long
time to give developers freedom and access to API's to develop application on
the OS. This feel like it's pivoted similarly to the App Stores now a days
(even you Google).

------
ThomPete
We left the app store because it was making it hard for us to do anything
innovative. The mac appstore is litterally hindering innovative apps from
existing, and for no good reason that couldnt be solved other ways.

I completely understand security concerns but the way apple solves theM is by
limiting the free choice of the user.

So now we are using the google “appstore”

------
pchristensen
Leaving aside the App Store issues, ExactScan Pro is a great app and an
essential part of my paperless workflow. I purchased it from them in 2015,
then purchased an update from the App Store this summer. It's worth a look
whether you want to support an exodus from the MAS or if you just want an
awesome scanner program.

------
yepthatsreality
Biggest pet peeve:

Why the hell hasn’t the iOS App Store password prompt been updated to allow me
to use my password manager?

~~~
snailmailman
This one drives me crazy! My fingerprint never scans properly, so for any app
download I have to manually open my password manager to copy/paste the
password in.

It actually discourages me from downloading apps. If the fingerprint doesn’t
scan on the first try I usually give up and just live without the app. It’s
usually not worth the hassle of copy/pasting.

------
joshsharp
Now wouldn't it be great if it was viable to make the same decision about
distributing your iOS app.

------
thesquib
I have never used the app store except to install macOS from time to time.
Everything I need I can buy or download through the web. I also use Windows
and Linux depending on my use case, and so I buy multi platform licences where
it makes sense and is possible.

------
mrlala
Side note to this; what's the best way to deploy a custom iphone app these
days? We were using a PWA to avoid a fullblown app and all the bullshit with
not being able to sideload an app easily like on android.

Is there a simple way to get an app out to 5-10 people on ios?

------
Mathnerd314
Article has some weird writing/typos, "updates, bu" and "we where actually".
Some of it might be because the company is in Germany, but still... the
company doesn't seem particularly professional or well-managed. It's hard to
tell from the website but it looks like it's run by one person with occasional
help from others.

And the software is kind of weird, scanners always come Windows
drivers/software so there's no issue using it there. Linux support is less
guaranteed but you can check the compatibility lists ([http://www.sane-
project.org/sane-mfgs.html](http://www.sane-project.org/sane-mfgs.html)). So
it's exploiting a niche in driver support between Apple and the manufacturers.

I'm not saying the author is a nutcase, but this seems like one rare data
point and I'd prefer to see more companies pulling their stuff off the app
store before drawing any real conclusions.

------
ProZsolt
I gave up on App Store as a user. I only use it for system updates an Apple
software (eg. Pages)

I just use Homebrew.

\- It has all the software I use not just 50%

\- If not I can easy ad it.

\- With bundler, I can set up my new computer super easy

\- If somebody dislikes the CLI there is Cakebrew

~~~
unlinked_dll
homebrew trashes /usr/local/lib permissions if you have multiple users on the
same machine. It's extremely annoying.

------
xhruso00
The guys latest video shows his frustration
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxwhb_ukmgY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxwhb_ukmgY)

------
fraggle222
If the appstore isn't providing the massive increase in revenue that it
should, then you should definitely leave.

It will be interesting to see in a year or 2 if they regret their decision or
not.

------
hlieberman
You still need to pay the $99 a year though, since you need an Apple Developer
account to submit binaries to Apple for notarization (which is required to run
them on Catalina.)

~~~
danhon
A paid Apple Developer account is not required to have binaries notarized.

~~~
xhruso00
Sadly you have to accept PAID agreement to get notarization to work.
[https://mjtsai.com/blog/2019/10/17/catalina-
notarization/](https://mjtsai.com/blog/2019/10/17/catalina-notarization/)

~~~
scarface74
Can you quote the relevant paragraph that you have to pay to get an app
notarized?

------
kd3
Allowing any company to decide what you are allowed to use and run on your
device is always a bad idea. It is unfortunate that these devs took so long to
realize this.

------
meerita
For me the optimal experience was Ubuntu software installer. It's like
Homebrew or APM with visuals, search, everything. App Store is just a walled
garden.

~~~
ProZsolt
Try [https://www.cakebrew.com/](https://www.cakebrew.com/)

------
bori5
I install far more programs/apps using Homebrew than AppStore or direct links
for most things, wish more paid apps where that way.

------
lightedman
So after reading this, my question is why the heck have they not diversified
their product line to make more money? From what I'm seeing, this company is a
one-trick pony.

I mean, I hate Apple practices as much as the next rational freedom-loving
person, but I'm kinda having a hard time feeling sorry for companies that
don't know to diversify to hedge against single-point failures (which they
ironically complain about while self-building their own SPoF.)

------
leokennis
The Mac App Store is now so crap infested and buggy that, if at all possible,
I always buy directly from the vendors.

------
Andrew_nenakhov
I agree with all these points. However, you can't leave behind the AppStore
that matters most: for iPhone and iPad.

------
jjtheblunt
genuine question:

How is a developer, complaining about "The Catalina Disaster", not an attempt
to distract attention, along with other developers, from years-long
procrastination?

------
buboard
MacOS people problems

------
blunderkid
User friendliness aside, the 30% that Apple keeps is just plain & simple
monopoly abuse, especially on the iOS App Store where Apple does control a
majority of the market in US. That they haven't been held up for anti-trust
shows that capitalism is not all well. Apple provides no value in exchange for
that 30% except charging gatekeepers fee for the entry ticket to their
platform. And as this article states, they in fact stand up more hurdles by
shoving their limited payments system down the developer's throat. The
companies worst affected by this are digital content providers like news/mags
which are already struggling.

------
tmikaeld
Have you considered Setapp? They offer an App-store equivalent but all apps
are included for a monthly fee.

~~~
xhruso00
With a price tag of 79.99 or 99.99 I wouldn't change to Setapp. EDIT: The guy
reverse engineered scanners and he is using this knowledge to support non
compatible 32-bit scanners. Very unique on the business market.

------
anovikov
With typos all over the page i am starting to doubt that the actual problem
was with Apple.

------
Igelau
> salleries

Ooph. We're not off to a very good start here.

------
Account123481-x
boo hoo

------
boromi
macOS 10.15 Vista

------
radiKal07
> Apple takes 30% and that is not sustainable to run a company and pay
> salleries

Oh, guess what? Apple also has to run a company and pay salaries. Who would've
thought?

~~~
djsumdog
30% is egregious. It's what I hate about Google/Apple/Amazon and why I've
always refused to buy music from their services. Bandcamp charges 10~15%. Buy
a CD directly from a band at a show and they pocket most of that money.

Apple is one of the largest companies in the world. They've done so with
bullshit like this and I wish people would stop supporting this broken
business model.

[https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/how-
much-d...](https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/how-much-do-
music-artists-earn-online-2015-remix/)

