
What It's Like to Work on Ultra-Violent Games Like Mortal Kombat - luu
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/05/id-have-these-extremely-graphic-dreams-what-its-like-to-work-on-ultra-violent-games-like-mortal-kombat-11/
======
stevenwoo
I have worked on ultra-violent games but never did research on what actual
killings looked like as referenced in the article. As the one quote said,
context is important as well as how close something gets to realistic looking.
That embedded Mortal Kombat trailer was pretty unrealistic looking IMO, the
physics was cartoon like and several what would be real life death blows were
not death blows until the fight was over. I was pretty disgusted by these
sorts of things when Mortal Kombat came out when I was a child and didn't get
the appeal of it so maybe I got inured to cartoon violence by exposure. OTOH,
Breaking Bad had a few death scenes similar to one of those, and aired on
prime time basic cable.

For one game I worked on, I was instructed to get blood splatters for cuts and
slicing off of body parts (in a cartoon character world) like the movie 300
which were over the top and very obviously particle effects (the producer
loved referencing current popular culture...). It never occurred to me to go
looking for what blood spurts look like in real life, as I was given an order
for a style.

Most of the games I have worked on were not realistic looking, though I
remember doing internal tiger team testing for Warcraft 3 and there was one
mission where you have to kill villagers. These characters are tiny and
cartoon like but the voices of them suffering in this made me feel so bad and
similar to stuff happening the real world I thought we should take the mission
out of the game - I think they toned it down a bit but it was in the final
version. This is kind of similar to the mission in Call of Duty series where
one has to participate in the slaughter of civilians in an airport - I didn't
like that one either.

I still have trouble watching some of the fight scenes in TV/film/wrestling
when they look too real or wince especially with blades, even though it's
obviously stunts with props and probably CGI for the most gruesome bits - I
have retained sensitivity to realistic violence.

~~~
ryanmarsh
I found many movies (war, horror) unwatchable after having been in combat.
People do die in some of the worst ways. Their last moments will make you
shudder to think about. I don’t find pleasure in, and I look down upon those
who enjoy, terrible death/torture scenes.

Some scenes in games are too much for sure, but there are far more horror
scenes that I think never should have been made and have no place as
entertainment in civil society.

I do not understand how people watch that stuff.

~~~
malvosenior
One point of view is that it's important for people who _have not_ been in
combat to see these things. It makes war less abstract and educates people on
what the reality of combat is like.

~~~
majos
I have heard this argument before. I think there are _some_ works of art that
do "make war real" \-- _Saving Private Ryan_ viscerally portrayed how chaotic
and horrible fighting is, in a way that made any kind of heroism seem oddly
small in comparison.

But I think most violent art instead aims for that apparently very popular
mixture of disgust and titillation. For example, there are various scenes (for
which I've read descriptions, not watched) in Game of Thrones that make me
seriously question the state of a culture where this is extremely popular
entertainment. And I do not buy the idea that these scenes force people into
sober contemplation of the way mortality yokes us all together.

But I strongly dislike violence more realistic than, say, the Avengers, so I'm
biased here.

~~~
malvosenior
It can also be just mindless entertainment. Media is going to range the
spectrum from quality to schlock. Meaningful to mindless. Not everything has
to be appropriate or entertaining to all audiences.

> _For example, there are various scenes (for which I 've read descriptions,
> not watched) in Game of Thrones that make me seriously question the state of
> a culture where this is extremely popular entertainment_

> _But I strongly dislike violence more realistic than, say, the Avengers, so
> I 'm biased here._

Yes, I would say you have a much stronger than average aversion to violence,
and that's ok! Just so long as you recognize that same freedom of choice in
others.

------
sickcodebruh
It’s kind of a relief to see so many other people say that the violence is too
much for them.

I was 8 when the original MK came out. It was gross and extreme, but it all
felt like a cartoon, it didn’t seem threatening. When it showed up on Genesis,
I found the blood code and learned every fatality, knew the game inside and
out. When MK II arrived on SNES, it was even better!

By comparison, my impression of modern MK games is that they aim to creat the
experience of actual human suffering. I guess it’s unavoidable that the detail
of the violence would have to grow with the technology, but it makes me
uncomfortable, I find it too unpleasant. Watching it is the difference between
the heart removal scene in Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom and a recent
Saw movie.

------
daenz
I've always felt that the Mortal Kombat games were sick. I remember when I
played my first violent video game as a kid and saw over-the-top gore, and
feeling cold, like not just at what I had seen, but that it was deliberately
placed for me to see it. And I remember feeling like I had to hide my disgust
from my peers who would think I was weak for not being thrilled by it.

Maybe I'm just getting older now, but when you start having life experiences
of people you care about being involved in accidents and having their bodies
destroyed, and all tolls that takes on someones life, it makes seeing
senseless violence so much more pointless. There's really nothing to celebrate
by glorifying the different ways a human body can be destroyed.

At the same time, I'm against legislating against this kind of expression, and
I don't hide behind "think of the children." If we just made wiser decisions
about the end results of our life's work, we wouldn't have to be having these
kinds of conversations.

~~~
Parcle
I believe people process violence in media differently. I'm not necessarily
drawn to it, so MK11 isn't on my list of games to play. But it also doesn't
affect me beyond the knee jerk.

Even though these deaths are "photo realistic", the context is not. The clean
limp bodies of the pets I've owned have haunted me a million times more than
anything I've seen in MK. That's how I know death. Just a lifeless body. The
spectacle of gory violence doesn't really connect with my experiences of
death.

Sorry if your own experiences have been different.

------
ralusek
Kotaku. ".au"

For those that don't know, Australia has censorship practices that America
would consider absolutely absurd. Kotaku are similarly inclined in encouraging
a kind of puritanical sensibility of their own variety.

I would find this article much more interesting if I didn't get the impression
that its author would happily legislate away developer and consumer freedoms
to make and/or play whatever games they'd like.

If your employer has you working on something that really bothers you, and
they're not able or willing to place you on something else, then that doesn't
sound like a good fit for employment. There are all kinds of things that make
people not want to work in certain positions at certain places.

~~~
erikpukinskis
You're making way too many assumptions. There's no reason to think Midway is
either unwilling or unable to make accommodations. There's also no reason to
think that if someone experiences trauma working on this stuff that they're
forever unable to do the work.

I think your mindset, that someone who is having an issue completing their
work should just not do that job, is a really toxic mindset. Workers can adapt
to their work, but companies also can adapt the workplace to the workforce.
Your attitude, that hiring a more resilient worker is the solution to every
breakdown, is not only inhumane it's probably inefficient. I hope you don't
have any direct reports.

~~~
ralusek
I say:

> If your employer has you working on something that really bothers you, and
> they're not able or willing to place you on something else, then that
> doesn't sound like a good fit for employment

You say:

> Workers can adapt to their work, but companies also can adapt the workplace
> to the workforce. Your attitude, that hiring a more resilient worker is the
> solution to every breakdown...

My initial statement suggested that the appropriate action was to seek an
alternative employer, _given_ that they are unwilling or unable to
accommodate. If they're able and willing to accommodate, then there is no
problem. You've completely mischaracterized my position.

~~~
erikpukinskis
Sorry, I assumed you were talking about the article.

------
some-guy
I grew up on 90s video game violence. Doom, Mortal Kombat, Duke Nukem, etc.

I've found that over time, the type of violence that disturbs me is the one
that is the most realistic. I had friends growing up who joined the military
because they _loved_ games like Call of Duty and Counter-Strike. Many of those
friends came back with severe cases of PTSD.

Mortal Kombat 11, Doom (the reboot), are not for everyone. But It's much
harder for me to associate that kind of violence with reality.

~~~
bgeeek
I think I was more disturbed by the news on TV when I was a kid, which was
long before even remotely realistic games started appearing. There are so many
depictions of violence in everyday life be it video games, the news, movies,
music, and even art. I wonder if they had the same conversations back in the
day, e.g. battle of 1066 etc, etc.

~~~
save_ferris
Same, I've been fascinated by the role of violence as entertainment throughout
history, but I struggle to find good reading material about it.

Unfortunately, whenever I ask around for recommendations or research on this
topic online, people assume that I'm anti-violence.

~~~
baby
I'm wondering what would happen long term if art and other mediums banned
violent material. I know it is censorship. I'm just wondering if we would
become a more peaceful society or if this would not have much effects.

~~~
teh_infallible
I’m pretty sure we’re inundated with violent entertainment because powerful
people want us to kill each other. Ever wonder why this stuff is considered
ok, but a glimpse of a woman’s nipple is not?

~~~
XorNot
It's because violence is much easier to explain then sex.

In western civilisation most people can get through life and never even come
close to having to make decisions about directly committing violence.

The answer of: just don't is in fact entirely adequate - not necessarily
complete but almost always the right answer.

Whereas almost everyone "does" sex at some point. But in depicting it the
exact same act takes on a huge number of implications depending on context -
including violence.

Ergo it's not actually so surprising it's rated the way it is - conversely I
still agree the blanket R or whatever is not really helping overall.

~~~
watwut
Female nipples exist outside of sex scenes too. Movies from countries where
nipples are not censored have them in non-sex scenes occasionally.

But also, I am not sure how much your explanation makes sense. Germany has
more censorship on violence and less on sex or naked things and their
experience with sex is pretty much similar.

------
xigency
I worked on Mortal Kombat X as a programmer late in the game. While I did not
suffer from PTSD, I did find the game's graphic violence initially shocking
and then later mundane. I work in a different industry now so it's sort of
funny to think back to eating lunch at my desk while the game was doing a soak
test and heads and limbs were flying. But watching video game violence daily
made me desensitized to it. I had to keep that in mind when showing the game
to family and friends.

I do agree with the points that there should be policies around working with
violent material and having the chance to step back or work on other projects.
That was not something I saw at the time, and while Mortal Kombat stands out
in terms of violence, I think it would be a useful consideration with most
video games.

------
alexashka
I wish these articles would include a little more beyond anecdotal evidence.

There was an article on here not long ago about a guy who was in charge of one
of the Civilization franchise releases and he drove himself nearly nuts doing
it. There'll always be people who are at the wrong place, at the wrong time -
that's hardly newsworthy.

Some of it is environment, some of it is their own make-up and circumstance.

Thankfully, we live in a free market - if people find violence and gore
unattractive, they can work on and/or play many other games with similar
budgets poured into them! Let the free market decide what people want - it's
very good at it.

This idea of moralizing/categorizing things into right and wrong for society
is a dead end. Alcohol prohibition in the USA being the go-to example for
anyone who has any doubt. People want to do things that are on some level self
destructive. It is not anyone's place to tell them otherwise - simply because
it doesn't work. You prohibit one thing, they find a way around it or find a
different outlet, resulting in consequences that are difficult to predict.

~~~
cableshaft
How did the Civ guy drive himself nuts? That game seems pretty tame in
comparison. If it's "I got PTSD because the violence was too real!" that would
fit the article, but seems a little unlikely. If it's "I worked 80 hours a
week every week until I ended up in the hospital", then that makes sense, and
is all too common in the industry.

~~~
evanweaver
I remember that article...it was the second one.

------
lcrs
I've worked on a few bloody moments in film VFX and we certainly looked at
some horrible reference of wounds, including headshots from pathology reports.
I don't think I suffered much beyond the odd sigh but it was only for a couple
weeks at a time. Someone went and talked to a trauma nurse about how much
blood would be expected for various rounds and whatnot, and I did imagine them
not being terribly impressed at why we wanted to know. Even though it was for
a rather non-violence-glorifying film in that case.

At some point someone did tell me something that helped though: think of and
describe what you're looking at using food terms instead of anatomy ones -
talk about a blood fluid sim as being "too much like tomato juice not enough
like gravy", textures in terms of mince/steak etc rather than human tissue
types. I also labelled render passes like that, made conversations sound a lot
less gross and more removed from reality, particularly to passers-by working
on other shots...

------
o_p
Seems 90s christian soccer-mom puritanism is making a comeback. I wonder how
ultra violent gore action is somewhat passable but showing a bit of female
skin is a no-no, US morals are funny.

~~~
erikpukinskis
What is soccer mom puritanism? I've never heard of that.

~~~
dqybh
Thankfully, Google has:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_mom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_mom)

~~~
TeMPOraL
I knew the term, but holy hell, I didn't realize it was created and used as a
_positive_ description. I've always thought of the term and the image it
conveyed as being strictly derogatory / insulting.

~~~
erikpukinskis
Anti-women groups use it in a derogatory way, so if you're in those
communities that's how you'd see it used. Similar to how many people use
feminism as an epithet.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I'm not in any anti-women groups, though I've known or read some people with
_anti-suburban_ bent (or rather, against _American-style_ suburbia and
suburban life), which is where I guess I must've picked up these connotations.

As for feminism, yes, I know a lot of people who use "feminism" as epithet and
justifiably so, though one usually tries to attach some word to distinguish
the crazies from those actually helping women; people I know in meatspace
usually call it "belligerent feminism". A lot of those people are women! They
prefer someone advocating for their rights instead of the people who use it as
a pretext to destroy others or win spotlight for themselves; since the latter
kind essentially appropriated the word "feminism" in public consciousness,
these women decided to disassociate themselves from the movement.

~~~
erikpukinskis
If they have a category for "belligerent feminism" it sounds like they're
still feminists and therefore they're not just "associating" with the
movement, they ARE the movement!

Personally I don't let cranks define words for me. That includes feminist
cranks and conservative cranks alike.

"Public consciousness" is worth paying attention to, but I'm not rewriting my
dictionary based on it.

------
Randomswiss
It's interesting to see a trailer like that on YouTube when sexuality is still
a taboo and not allowed on YouTube

~~~
k__
Sounds like classic US morals to me.

------
shocks
Having experts come in and help artists seems much more sensible than artists
study real life ultra-violence references in the studio. That's going to mess
anyone up.

------
failrate
The real shame for me is that Mortal Kombat is not even a particularly good
game.

Right now, fighting game fans are spoiled for choice with well-designed
interfaces and competitive, balanced character design.

Plug for my personal
favorite:[https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://store.steampowered.com/app/390560/Fantasy_Strike/&ved=2ahUKEwiA3uLr2ZbiAhXFpJ4KHdWaBzwQFjAFegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0KrS1rWrJR91ls6ho1mtb7)

~~~
folex
Thanks for the recommendation!

What are others good fighting games that run on PC and support couch co-op
with joysticks?

~~~
failrate
Do you want traditional 1v1 fighters or more variety?

~~~
failrate
In nontraditional, I recommend Towerfall and Nidhogg.

Guilty Gear is generally recommended in my circles, but I dont play it.

------
bullen
I worked on the completely pacifist MMO Meadow, you can't even write something
offensive to each other in that game, instead of chat it has an emote system.

One day when I was logging in to test something a player used the only sound
that could be interpreted as hostile (the lynx hissing sound) and was backing
away from me repeating it for as long as I stayed, I was hypnotized by the
time this poor soul was going through to try and make others feel
uncomfortable.

To me that was enlightening, there must be some story about something positive
with working with the most violent game ever, I wish Kotaku would try and dig
that story out instead.

~~~
antepodius
You get that sort of thing all the time. Games in the genre of DayZ and Rust,
where the default is trust no-body, shoot people on sight and loot the tins of
beans off their corpses- every now and again, someone takes a newbie under
their wing, or shows someone mercy when they didn't need to, or helps someone
get revenge against someone that wronged them, and you get a great little
story of kindness in a harsh world.

~~~
nickpsecurity
Eh, one of my favorites wasn't quite kindness but a kind person teaching a
harsh world a lesson in a kind-ish way. See Fansy in No 4:

[https://www.cracked.com/blog/the-7-most-elaborate-dick-
moves...](https://www.cracked.com/blog/the-7-most-elaborate-dick-moves-in-
online-gaming-history/)

Their whole "dick moves in online gaming" series is pretty awesome, too.

------
bubblewrap
Once upon a time I worked as a postman. It involved sorting all the letters
for the day into their slots for the tour. I had dreams of that.

Work has a habit of sneaking into dreams. I have dreamed of shifting computer
commands around, too.

From the trailer, MK is absolutely not appealing to me. I also don't like
horror movies. So I wouldn't be keen to work on such games or on horror
movies. Other people might feel differently.

I think people who don't enjoy the work should just quit and look for another
job. That goes not just for MK, but for any kind of job.

------
_448
I was once part of a project where we were porting "MK:Deadly Alliance" to
mobile platform. Every time when I saw heads being ripped-off or likes during
unit and integration testing I use to think "People(lot of young people) will
be playing this?" I am not a gamer and have not directly worked in gaming
industry, so this could be just me I think.

~~~
drharby
Growing up playing these kinda games, you kinda just normalize it. I came out
normal.

~~~
nkozyra
I think "coming out normal" is hard to judge without a comparative version.

I grew up with these games, too, but if you have internally normalized that
which is inherently abnormal, it may manifest in subtle ways.

~~~
alexpetralia
This argument could be made for anything, not just games.

~~~
nkozyra
I don't disagree.

------
cheeyoonlee
> This is kind of similar to the mission in Call of Duty series where one has
> to participate in the slaughter of civilians in an airport - I didn't like
> that one either.

Oh man that was a tough mission to play through... great game though..
definitely compelling and one of the most memorable. I wonder if something
like that could ever pass today.

------
lookACamel
It would be interesting to compare this to the experience special effects
artists who work on gory films have.

------
thatoneuser
Ppl in this thread are acting kinda strange. Why is this so traumatizing to
everyone? You know EMTs and doctors and whatnot see this kind of stuff irl
fairly frequently and still manage to live healthy lives afaik. I can't
imagine being someone on a mortal kombat dev team who goes home and has
recurring terror from their work. If that's the case like - go work for Kirby
or something.

Funny story - I broke my leg in half a while back. Soon after I could walk
again I went to a buddies and we got high and played MK10. The cutscenes where
it xrayed and showed bones breaking in half shocked the hell out of my senses.
But I didn't get stressed or stop playing. The feeling desensitized relatively
quickly and it was one of my favorite games.

~~~
UncleEntity
> Why is this so traumatizing to everyone?

It's not traumatizing to everyone and everyone reacts to things differently.

I've spent almost two years of my life in combat zones, seen some pretty
fucked up shit and can sit down and watch a war movie with no problem. Other
people, not so much.

Though I did watch the trailer in TFA and do think it is surprisingly violent
for no real reason.

~~~
malvosenior
> _surprisingly violent for no real reason._

We're talking about it, that's pretty much the reason. MK have never been good
fighting games and have relied totally on the "edge"/shock factor to market
themselves. There are probably people who read this thread and think "wow this
game is shocking people! I need to check it out".

~~~
thatoneuser
Actually MK is a great fighting game. One of my favorite.

------
andrei_says_
I think highly stylized violence like the one seen in MK and hyper realistic
violence like The Last Of Us (2) are worlds apart.

Just the trailers for the last of us were enough to leave me extremely
unsettled.

------
unicornporn
Had a really hard time watching that trailer. Makes me question if the
developers have researched what level of gore their audience finds acceptable
in an age of near photo realistic gaming.

~~~
skocznymroczny
What is photorealistic changes every decade. Doom used to be photorealistic,
then Unreal, then Crysis, now modern games are photorealistic. And yet they
don't look realistic at all.

~~~
ben_w
I was about to suggest Myst 2 onwards as exceptions, but then I looked at some
gameplay videos on YouTube and even those don’t look very realistic any more.

~~~
rocqua
Crysis remains one of the best imho.

------
faissaloo
I'm honestly more appalled by the choice of music for that trailer. I've seen
gorier stuff in anime.

~~~
blackhaz
The whole Mortal Kombat thing has died long time ago. The last good release,
IMO, was MK3. (I'm still playing it!) The game was about controlling your own
rhythm and predicting your opponent - in the first place. Knowing "secret"
moves was secondary. If you had the rhythm you could've defeated somebody with
"bare hands." Violent scenes was a bonus. The game was built around the
rhythm. After MK3, it's all about violent scenes. With jam pouring out of
people and high-contrast renders they don't even look realistic anymore... And
that music - indeed, no style at all.

R.I.P.. Mortal Kombat. (We still play you in DOSBox!)

~~~
cableshaft
It really did seem to lose something after MK3 and never seemed to get it
back. MK9 seemed to get the closest out of all the newer ones to that old
feel, at least for me, although the X-ray bone breaking special moves it
introduced got too long and annoying after you did them every single match.
Seems like they've doubled down on those and they've just gotten worse with
MKX and MK11.

------
swebs
Here's an archive for those who don't want to give Kotaku clicks:

[http://archive.is/JtQcw](http://archive.is/JtQcw)

------
whamlastxmas
Some people (John Romero/Carmack and team) actively like working on stuff like
this. Seems like they should be finding volunteers if that wasn't the case.
There's enough of demand for video game jobs I'm sure it can't be hard.

~~~
bitwize
"So, Dexter? Hannibal? How's that ribcage-ripping animation coming along?"

~~~
liability
Surely there exist perfectly sane and law abiding creative people who aren't
disturbed by fictional depictions of gore. Comparing people like Romero to
fictional serial killers is just silly.

~~~
bitwize
The violence in Doom, Quake, and such was always quite stylized, even in games
like Doom (2016), and usually inflicted against demons, mutants, and other
monsters. (It's relevant because the uncanny valley is more forgiving when
you're seeing something decidedly not human.) These days, Mortal Kombat is
going for a style of violence that _looks_ particularly gruesome and
realistic, and is committed against humans or creatures close enough to human
as to make little difference. And Netherrealm staff are scrutinizing footage
of real murders, executions, and other deaths for reference. The sort of
person who _enjoys_ looking at that stuff, over and over, is pretty much
constrained to the psychopathic serial killer aspirant type. MK is really
raising the bar on how extreme video game violence can be, well beyond what
was ever countenanced by Carmack and Romero.

~~~
liability
Your armchair psychology is absolutely shameful.

