
Getting shot by a handgun - thamer
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467321
======
iamelgringo
Speaking from years of experience working as an ER nurse in the Chicago
ghetto...

He drew a short straw on the weapon of choice. .22 caliber slugs tend to
bounce around inside a person. Anything carrying more energy would likely have
shattered his scapula, and gone clean through him. The energy of the slug
wouldn't have been used up bouncing around his chest.

I took care of a person shot in the ankle with a .22. The entrance wound was
in his ankle and the exit wound was in his groin. Another client had a single
hole in his skull with no exit wound. Needless to say, the poor sap didn't do
well after having a slug rattle around inside his skull for a while.

But I digress. I just finished watching the first season of The Wire tonight.
It reminded me a lot of my stint in Chicago, and I guess I have ballistics on
my mind. Back to coding...

~~~
rdl
Aside from the ease of sound suppressing them, and the small size of the
weapons, there is a reason some of the best hit squads in the world use the
.22lr!

Admittedly, a .22WMR is pretty much a different animal than the .22lr. Out of
a rifle, it would have probably been a through and through, assuming a FMJ
bullet -- you'd probably get 2000fps for a 40gr. A JSP might not have, and out
of a Ruger Single Six, it's a lot closer to a really hot .22lr rifle.

~~~
bwhite
Sound suppression is largely a function of relatively slowly bleeding off the
gas that results from combustion. There is not much powder in a 22lr (22 long-
rifle) round, which is why it is easily suppressible. I can make no particular
comment as to the frequency of their use by the best hit squads in the world.

The subject of the article was shot with a 22WMR (Winchester Magnum Rimfire)
round. This round can use the same bullet as the 22lr round but contains lots
more powder.

The velocity of the bullet leaving the barrel of the firearm depends on how
fast the charge contained in the casing wants to push it and how much the
barrel wants to slow it down due to friction. Almost all rifles barrels are
between 16.5" and 24". For a average 22WMR round shooting an 40-grain (unit of
mass) bullet out of a mid-length rifle barrel one would expect the bullet to
leave the barrel at around 2000 feet/sec. The deceleration caused by friction
can be altered by changing the exterior-most material of the bullet: a full
metal jacket (usually lead totally encased by copper) is potentially slicker
than a jacketed soft-point (only partially encased, with the tip exposed).

A Ruger Single Six is a type of handgun. The story describes a single-action
revolver, which the Single Six is not, but let's ignore that. It comes in
barrel lengths of 2.75", 4", and 6". Out of a 4" or 6" barrel, the 22WMR has
about 1400-1600 feet/sec of velocity. This is roughly comparable with the
upper (or hot) range for a 22lr fired out of a rifle barrel.

~~~
commandar
> There is not much powder in a 22lr (22 long-rifle) round, which is why it is
> easily suppressible.

Also, .22LR ammunition is generally subsonic outside of hotter loadings. This
avoids the characteristic supersonic crack of higher velocity cartridges.

~~~
mgarfias
Sorry, but .22 Long Rifle is generally loaded supersonic from the test
fixtures, even in the standard loadings. A pistol (assuming a 6" bbl) is
really close to supersonic, if not a bit over. It'll vary by weapon and air
density.

Now, you could use one of the other rimfire variations (.22 Short, .22 Long,
.22 CB) which generally will fire from a .22 LR chamber. These would most
likely get you subsonic velocities.

Another thing to consider when shooting a pistol vs a rifle and comparing
sound signatures is that a pistol will eject more unburnt powder into the air
around the muzzle as its had less barrel length to burn said powder.

As far as suppression goes, there are four main components of the sound
signature of a gunshot:

1) muzzle blast - the expansion of deflagrating powder in the atmosphere as it
exits the barrel.

2) sonic crack - the bullet creating a shockwave through the air. Can be
avoided by using subsonic cartridges/loadings.

3) the weapons action - at the very least the firing pin's impact on the
primer. This is louder than you'd expect.

4) the bullet's impact - very much louder than you'd expect. A rifle bullet
impacting flesh is a very loud slap. Imagine dropping a large boneless beef
roast on a tile floor from a few meters up.

Of these bits of the gunshot, only 1) can be addressed with a suppressor. And
it does make shooting much more pleasant. You can generally avoid most ear
protection shooting suppressed, even with supersonic ammo (you won't be in the
shockwave so no need to worry about it).

I personally have fired rather large rifles without ear protection, and its
generally not real pleasant. I really wish that there was no NFA and we could
buy suppressors like some countries (New Zealand comes to mind). A .22
suppressor there is something like $40NZ, here you're looking at $4-600, a
$200 tax stamp, and a 6month wait for the BATFE to do a background check that
the FBI does in less than a week. Oh, and you can't let your wife/kid use it
without being in violation of the NFA unless you have it owned by a trust
where the family memebers are trustees.

~~~
commandar
I'm just going on chrono numbers I've seen in the past, e.g.
[http://www.hipointfirearmsforums.com/Forum/index.php?topic=3...](http://www.hipointfirearmsforums.com/Forum/index.php?topic=32913.0)

The only stuff that's consistently making supersonic out of the list is the
high velocity stuff. Even Remington Golden Bullet (which Remington advertises
as "high velocity" according to the box I have sitting on my desk) falls short
of supersonic from pistol length barrels.

I guess the fairer thing to say would be that .22LR is borderline but it drops
below supersonic pretty quickly once you start shaving barrel length.

------
rdl
I strongly advise against getting shot.

My limited first-ass experience: I got hit by a 9mm FMJ ricochet. Someone put
a round into a concrete floor near me, and the bullet broke apart and a piece
hit me, or a piece of concrete hit me in the back of the thigh; it left a
mark, but didn't break the skin; we found the bullet completely deformed with
the jacket shredded in several pieces). The worst part was the sound; despite
shooting a lot, it was the first time I'd ever been next to a firearm fired
inside a 3m x 2m x 3m concrete room without wearing hearing protection. I also
had a sore throat from yelling at the guy for the next ~15 minutes. Strangely,
I wasn't actually afraid until the next day (when I realized how easy it would
have been for the guy to have shot me in the leg instead, or for the ricochet
to have hit me somewhere important nearby, etc.)

Temporary deafness (wax basically protects your ear from further damage by
blocking the ear canal; I used hydrogen peroxide to clean it out later, and
let a medic look at it with an otoscope to make sure the eardrum wasn't too
damaged).

The whole experience made me 1) trust people even less and 2) want to become a
certified emt or paramedic at some point, mainly to deal with trauma.

~~~
archon
I have a similar anecdote, and strangely enough, a similar reaction.

A group of us were preparing for an IDPA match at a local gun range. One of
our most experienced members got a little too complacent and was joking with a
friend after finishing a course of fire. He ignored the range safety officer
standing next to him. He didn't clear his weapon before he holstered it, and
as he holstered it, his hand slipped and the weapon discharged.

We all thought he was fine, and so did he. The range safety officer was in the
middle of yelling at him when one of the other members noticed that the guy
was bleeding pretty heavily from his right leg. He'd given himself a nice 9mm
through-and-through wound to the calf.

The round didn't hit anything important, and we got the bleeding stopped and
him off to a hospital without much problem.

A few weeks later, before our next shoot, our group met with a local paramedic
and an ER doctor for an informal crash course in gunshot trauma treatment.

~~~
rdl
Being an RSO is one of the most unpleasant jobs I've ever had. It's even worse
on ranges where you're training people who may already want to kill you, or
may just shoot you if you try to impart useful training tips like "please
maintain muzzle discipline" or "use both hands", which I thankfully have never
had to do.

------
dkarl
About fifteen years ago I read a book summarizing research into the effects of
different types and calibers of handguns and handgun ammunition. (Long story
short: Clinton was trying to ban semiautomatic handguns or something, so my
dad developed a sudden interest in buying a gun, and he borrowed some books
from a friend who was quite an enthusiast.) The study was a survey of
thousands of police reports on shootings, and it was done by a law enforcement
guy to help law enforcement departments make an intelligent decision about
what kinds of guns and ammo to standardize on.

He provided a lot of statistics and made some recommendations, but the
overriding theme and message of the book was that the result of shooting
someone, or being shot, is unpredictable no matter what kind of weapon is
involved. Some examples:

A fatal bullet through the heart can leave a guy up and shooting for over ten
seconds -- obviously an eternity for a law enforcement officer in a point-
blank shootout.

A guy can get shot and not know it. Police officers are trained to check
themselves carefully when any shots are fired, because it has happened that
officers thought they were unharmed, went home, laid down to rest, and bled to
death.

A guy can be in a shootout and THINK he got shot, and it turns out there's not
a mark on him. They get knocked over, feel intense pain, cry out, etc. There
were enough of these cases that the researchers were able to find some
involving officers who were previously decorated for valor and _had in fact
been shot before_.

A guy can get shot multiple times with a powerful weapon and get lucky, or he
can get shot with a tiny weapon and get unlucky. I still remember the story
used to illustrate this: a fight between roommates got ugly, and one guy shot
the other six times in the chest with a .45. The second guy went to his attic,
found his great-grandfather's Civil War-era relic small caliber revolver
(something like a .22), went back downstairs, and shot his roommate through
the heart, killing him. Forty-eight hours later, his desire for medical care
overcame his aversion to getting caught, and he walked into an emergency room.
He recovered completely.

The book had a lot of complicated reasoning about the trade-offs involved in
choosing handguns and ammunition and made some strong recommendations, but I
don't remember any of the specifics. I just remember the author stressing over
and over again not to expect any particular result when you shoot somebody.

~~~
G_Wen
<http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf>

Here's a PDF analyzing the effectiveness of firearms. It was written in 1989
so it is a bit out of date. Perhaps someone with more experience with firearms
can check to see if the article is still relevant.

It does confirm that "Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is
sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action
for 10-15 seconds".

~~~
jarin
So there might be something to the idea that you stay conscious for a bit
after getting beheaded?

~~~
archon
Supposedly, the chemist Antoine Lavoisier[1], who was beheaded during the
French Revolution, asked his assistant to quickly retrieve his head after the
blade fell and count how long he could blink his eyes. The head blinked in the
range of 12-15 times.

[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Lavoisier>

------
Nekojoe
On a similar note George Orwell got shot once in the Spanish Civil war. This
article documents his thoughts on it -
[http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/soldiers/george-orwell-
shot.h...](http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/soldiers/george-orwell-shot.html)

------
nostrademons
Non-linkjacked version:

<http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467321>

~~~
tomerico
Thanks, the context of the question made this post much clearer.

------
niels_olson
Doc with a degree in physics, previously a weapons and anti-terrorism officer
on an aircraft carrier and recently (a year ago) took the combined forces
combat casualty care course, and have done a few trauma rotations in inner-
city ERs (New Orleans and Norfolk).

Chapter 1 of the Emergency War Surgery Manual (updated in 2006 to collect
lessons learned from Iraq and Afghanistan) dedicates Chapter 1 to dispelling
misconceptions about injuries. The science comes down on the side of the cop
answering in Google: the weapon is of little use in predicting the outcome.

<http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/other_pub/ews.html>

~~~
bootload
_"... took the combined forces combat casualty care course, and have done a
few trauma rotations in inner-city ERs (New Orleans and Norfolk) ..."_

Interesting read. Knowing _"how"_ to react and _"reacting"_ in a appropriate,
timely manner in a chaotic environment is a big jump even with the right kind
of practice (as opposed to fake practice:
<http://bootload.posterous.com/through-my-eyes-fake-practice> ) especially at
the first response end. How do you train for the gap between working in calm
controlled environments to chaotic ones?

Cudo's, HM's ~
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Hospital_Cor...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Hospital_Corpsman)
are well trained because sometimes they are the closest to medical aid you get
and as such are much respected.

------
joakin
Fascinating story...

More than the shotgun (I would spect to die and Im not very curious on that
matter) what really intrigues me is what would I feel after 10 years of zero
sexual activity.

Sexual feelings are really strong, that has to cause real pain through the
years, I dont know if being grateful of being alive could easily overcome them

~~~
chloraphil
Shotgun?

~~~
natrius
Gunshot.

~~~
joakin
Oops, I cant edit now :S Thx for the correction

------
cookiecaper
I know an ex-intelligence officer. He's been shot multiple times, and says
that getting shot really hurts. I assume it was even worse than usual for him
since he was in the field and couldn't quite waltz into the nearby hospital
for treatment.

He also says getting shot is worse when you're running away from someone than
when it takes you by surprise. He said some other things, but I don't really
remember them.

------
GiraffeNecktie
I've had a pneumothorax - the collapsed lung part of his experience - which
required major surgery and a painful recuperation. That was awful enough on
its own but was only a tiny part of what he experienced. Yikes.

~~~
mwilcox
I've had a pneumomediastinum - similar thing but right next to my heart.
Pretty scary just having a massive pain in your chest and not knowing what's
wrong. I was lucky though and didn't need any surgery and it just cleared up
on its own.

~~~
iamelgringo
You are lucky. Pneumomediasitnum gets particularly nasty if you the reason you
have it is a torn esophagus, and you have partially eaten food (along with the
air) leaking into the sack around your heart.

------
rwhitman
If you do a google search to find out who this guy is you'll discover that
this story has been copied in a number of different answer sites and blogs for
the last 5 years.

But no info on who this is or the backstory on the context of why he got shot.

------
freshfey
Maybe I missed that particular point but how did he get shot?

~~~
rokhayakebe
He shot himself.

~~~
freshfey
If your answer wasn't meant as a joke -> No, it says "I myself was shot" not I
shot myself.

~~~
rokhayakebe
Joke? I couldn't joke about a deadly situation. I accidentally read "I shot
myself".

Now as a side note, I want to say to everyone who downvoted my comment without
saying why, I think this is an idiot's move. Yes, I am saying it. At least if
you are going to do it, give a feedback. Otherwise you haven't added anything
to the conversation. And just so you know, it's not about karma. It's about
you not adding anything to the conversation.

~~~
jholman
In response to your sidenote, bullshit. Whining about downvotes without
"saying why" is an idiot's move. Replying to that whining (as I am doing now)
might possibly be an idiot's move, I'm not sure. But voting is not an idiot's
move, and lack of explanation does not make it so.

Upvotes and downvotes add the same thing to the conversation: 1) They're a
system by which the collective collectively modifies what comments get seen,
and in what order 2) They're a system of feedback about what is a valuable
contribution

Neither of those contributions requires "saying why". Of course, it is true
that the second function works a lot better if the voter communicates a "why",
that's easy to see. But it's easy to see that the first function is served
just fine by voting without comments (and indeed, since your downvoted comment
was erroneous, the conversation benefited from it being removed via
downvoting).

Further, we all already know that some explanations of "why" distract from the
conversation more than they contribute. The most-obvious example is "+1 agree"
or "+1 this", or even "+1 this comment told me something I didn't know". Or,
in your case, people could have commented "-1 unsubstantiated" or "-1 parent
post misread FA" or something.

Either way, whining about voting _really_ doesn't add to the conversation. If
I had downvote ability, I'd downvoting comments that complain about downvotes.

tl;dr: Downvotes without explanations are just as much a positive contribution
to the conversation as upvotes.

~~~
rokhayakebe
The last I will say on the subject.

 _Whining about downvotes without "saying why" is an idiot's move_. Thank you.
According to your comment I am not an idiot because I "said why" : _if you are
going to do it, give a feedback. Otherwise you haven't added anything to the
conversation._.

I cannot start to think of a world where giving someone a coin as a way of
saying you are adding value is just as effective as taking away a coin from
them as a way of saying you are taking away value. The way we communicate
online should just be an extension of how we communicate in real life. In
practice you should only be able to downvote someone because you upvoted them
in the past. So in a sense you would take back what you gave them. Otherwise
it is nothing short of robbery.

I have never downvoted anyone, unless it was done by mistake. Maybe we are
different, but I just do not see how downvotes are helpful. I respect your
point, but I think it doesn't make sense.

------
msquared
Just have to say, before reading all of this, REALLY glad this many HN readers
and posters are into this topic. Thought I was the only nut that loved
technology and firearms, guess I was wrong.

 _happy sigh_

~~~
tome
You surely can't be unaware that Eric Raymond loves both tech and guns?

~~~
msquared
I surely was, but surely am no longer :) He resides in PA too, just like me,
where our gun control laws favor freedom over oppression (all you
Cali/NJ/NYers out there). But I digress.

------
EBNV
I am trying to find an answer here. I was shot by a .22 from some kind of semi
auto pistol. It was night on a porch with 1 60watt light on. I rushed to the
door after hearing my daughter screaming opened the screen to see a boy on the
porch turn toward me with a semi hand gun in his right hand. He was 1-2 feet
away.as I saw the gun coming around to shoot me. I knew I had to get the gun
and reached for it with intense urgency. I saw a flash and felt something hit
my upper chest HARD.and heard a 'pop' I remember thinking I failed horribly
and was going to die. The next thing I remember I was chasing him down the
street hitting him with the butt of the gun until all I was hitting him with
was the barrel. ...much happened.. As I was calling 911 very distressed I told
them I had been shot -- but looking down I could see no blood and no hole in
my white cotton shirt.. The police recovered a .22 slug a couple feet inside
the door to the left (door opens to the right) ..and no I have never owned a
.22 and the slug in no way belonged on the floor.

I later found what looked like a lead colored smudge mark above a button hole
on my white shirt and my chest was bright red behind that spot.

How the heck did that .22 not enter my chest? I had a thick cotton work shirt
on with a tee shirt on beneath it -- But that is not enough to block a .22 in
my experience.

?Anyone?

This happened 4 days ago so my recollection is fairly fresh.

------
colanderman
Maybe I'm missing something, but what kind of units are "foot pounds per
square inch"? That's definitely not a pressure...

~~~
epochwolf
A foot pound is the amount of force required to move a pound of material one
foot. By adding a surface area it becomes a measure of pressure.

~~~
someone_here
Any amount of material can be moved any distance with an infinitesimal amount
of force, given enough time... or maybe I'm missing something.

~~~
Zak
It's the amount of energy required to _lift_ one pound vertically by one foot,
or the amount of momentum a one pound object gains by falling one foot in a
vacuum.

~~~
hugh3
Much of the confusion here comes from the fact that a pound is used both as a
unit of force and as a unit of mass.

This is one of the many reasons y'all should use SI.

------
noonespecial
I learned by talking to law enforcement types that used to hang around our
computer store that unlike the "violent ballet" in movies most gunfights
unfold with both combatants clumsily emptying their weapons in each others
general direction, then staggering out to wait for the paramedics.

------
grammaton
It depends entirely on where they're hit, and how much adrenaline and man-made
drugs are in their blood stream. But as a common saying goes, "it's a gun, not
a death ray." It's surprising - shocking even - how much damage some people
can take and still keep going.

------
kondro
Sigh... Amaercians and their second amendment.

There is so much anecdotal evidence in this thread. I thought that the HN
community would have a greater adversion to firearms as even their ownership
by a community increases the chance of fatal violence.

------
napierzaza
Your heard it here first. Being shot once feels like being shot three times.
But is it linear? If I was shot 3 times would it feel like 9 times or even
more?

~~~
dmitri1981
He didn't say it 'felt' like being shot three times. He said it was like being
shot three times due to the bullet ricocheting inside his chest.

------
bmurphy
Interesting, but I really don't think this belongs here.

~~~
JonnieCache
I think his impassive, detailed, technical description/narrative will chime
with a lot of people here, in a way that it wouldn't at other communities.

~~~
Chris_Morrell
I found this disturbingly fascinating in a similar manner to reading autopsy
or accident reports. It was clear and explained a process that I wasn't
familiar with even though I shoot a .22 target pistol and .22 target rifle.
Between the linked article and some of the comments it gave me a new found
respect for my peashooters.

