
Google Memo: Fired Employee Speaks Out [video] - Red_Tarsius
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN1vEfqHGro
======
mvindahl
This DaMore guy doesn't have a lot of political savvyness.

First off, I think his manifesto contained more nuance than has been
attributed to it. I agreed with some points and disagreed with others. I think
the length was a bit excessive but it's not the kind of thing that would make
me raise an eyebrow. Still, by publishing to to the entire company, he was
openly challenging the views of his employer and forcing them to respond in
spades. It was a move with no real upside but plenty of potential downsides.

Now, with half of Twitter eager to write him off as an alt-right douchebag,
what does he do? Yup, gives an interview on an alt-right YouTube channel. This
is a brilliant coup for Peter Molyneux but for DaMore there is absolutely no
upside to being associated with those guys.

Thing is, I don't think DaMore is a bad person. I think he is earnestly trying
to understand the current diversity fad and to spark a debate around its
causes and effects. But he has quickly turned himself into a pawn in everyone
else's game.

~~~
heisenbit
His lack of political savyness is mind-boggling but then he was hired not for
that.

He clearly made a mistake in how he said things not in what he said. The
latter is more winded than necessary and nuanced than many give him credit - a
draft collection of thoughts for internal discussion in a small group of non
judgemental friends. One political problem he clearly ignored is that it hit a
company embroiled in wage discrimination lawsuits.

Whether the company overreacted probably will be decided in court - details
matter and we do not have all of them e.g. how common is it that employees
mail the whole company.

~~~
dfraser992
> His lack of political savyness is mind-boggling but then he was hired not
> for that.

No... I can see something of me (from 20 years ago) in him. Engineer (or is he
even a 'real' one given his degree?), male, mid-20s... I don't find his lack
of understanding exactly how "political" people and society actually are (and
predominantly so, to the detriment of capital T-truth) to be unexpected.
People can be, and tend to be, willfully manipulative, and it takes some life
experience to get a handle on that knowledge.

In my mid-20s, I was a government contractor working on a large DoD project.
Some impromptu hallway meeting with the bigwig PM running the whole thing led
me to going blahblah with him explaining how easy it might be to do something
he'd dreamt up the day before. I was just being an engineer who didn't
understand social systems very well. So a few hours later, I get sort of
chewed out by various PMs on our side as this 'idea' which was not in the
contract and not in scope was now in scope... Part of the learning experience
of how business actually works, and building things (hell, everything) is
secondary to profit. The actual engineering part is secondary to
organizational related bullshit - always.

Basically, I think engineers need more exposure to the humanities and stuff
like this might not happen. That is another essay entirely, explaining how
STEM subjects became excessively important since the 60s, to the detriment of
society. The stereotypical engineer does not understand social systems very
well, I certainly didn't. But at this point in my life, I think understanding
them is far more important than knowing a bunch of tech that will generally be
obsolete in a few years; understanding how insane Western society is in some
respects has become easy.

I didn't read all of his manifesto, it was tedious and I understand enough
social psych et al already... There is a balance that needs to struck and all
the ideologues on both sides don't care for things to be in balance.

Everything else in the parent comment, I agree with. Now I read that female
Google employees may be suing re: the wage gap etc. Hmmm... I actually blew
off two attempts from Google years ago to interview me :) I didn't want to go
through their stupid interview process and had already had enough of large
badly managed orgs (i.e. the DoD). The pay would have been nice though (a
joke!)

~~~
127
So how would such an engineer get the social experience needed to navigate
this environment? Is the only alternative to just step in and figure it out
while you go?

~~~
dfraser992
What environment? The social side of IT? I guess I'd say my perspective is
based upon all the reading on many subjects, not just technical ones, I've
done in the past 45 years. I'm not an expert in anything but I can follow a
line of reasoning and get an idea where it is going off the rails. And 45
years of life and thinking too much is also a factor.

An essential point made in some answer by a real scientist on Quora on how
wrong Damore was in so many things was Damore's reliance on "biology" being at
the heart of his argument/worldview/etc. It was the way Damore phrased some
sentence that made me realize it shouldn't be a surprise he is now 'out' as an
alt-righter.

I have realized this obsession with biology is the mark of a large portion of
conservatives who seem incapable of grasping the complexities of modern day
society. Actual science that muddies this view w/ facts gets ignored... The
reasons for this are complex and tie back to how conservatives' brains are
different in some respects to liberals and how that affects psychological
operations. Biology is certainly important, but to boil down higher level
things like society and psychological stuff to only that and then base your
philosophy / world view on such reduces humans to little more than talking
animals, which is at the heart of conservative thought. By "animal", I mean to
imply all the connotations of that word. 'Biology' is a the primary filter
they view the world through, and other filters lie on top of that. Instead of
a multiplicity of filters, all at the same level, that when integrated, show a
more holistic view of things.

So to cut this short, .... get a handle on dealing with complexity, I guess.
Aspire to be a philosopher-king. Understand how your personal issues color
your interpretation of things and affect your values (e.g. go to therapy or
drop some acid). And take some acting classes to get a handle on a completely
different way of interpreting the world.

And lastly, realize you are just a cog whose sole purpose is to provide
surplus labor to the owners of a company. Embarrass the company and you will
get fired. Google has strict clauses about not doing things that might result
in public blowback (i.e. that don't write a book about a large software
company clause in the employment contract). I can't imagine Damore didn't
violate something like that and they should have fired him on that basis, not
the more politically advantageous one of 'gender issues, diversity', etc. But
Google is getting in legal hot water because of their pay imbalance from what
I hear, so they used this whole thing to their advantage because now they seem
like they aren't evil and do pay women (or try to) at equitable rates. See how
an understanding of humans' hidden motives works? That's why you should take
acting classes.

------
forthefuture
Please forgive me for being crass, but it's so stressful to have to watch a 45
minute video just to not have someone lie to me about it tomorrow.

~~~
quotemstr
But serious respect for 1) understanding that, and 2) choosing to be well-
informed. I'm incredibly disappointed with the number of people these days who
denounce people, books, docs, movies, and even whole groups of people without
having any direct experience or even _caring_ to become well-informed enough
to form an independent opinion.

------
manigandham
James Damore also spoke with Jordan Peterson:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agU-
mHFcXdw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agU-mHFcXdw)

------
dandare
The saddest thing for me is that this will add tons of ammunition to all kinds
of sexists, racists and extremists. Damore made several well sourced arguments
that you are welcome to disagree with. But instead of discussion, counter
arguments and "embracing diversity" he was silenced and probably illegally
sacked. This will strengthen the position of all kind of haters and populists
and if you think it's not a big deal go and check who is your president.

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dvfjsdhgfv
I've just found the gist of it.

You can save yourselves the pain of watching the whole thing and just go to
the summary:

[https://youtu.be/TN1vEfqHGro?t=1758](https://youtu.be/TN1vEfqHGro?t=1758)

I believe it's the most important part of the video and also a link that you
can send to people who think they know better what the author of the memo
meant.

------
abhimanyurawat
Having a different view and representing it, but wrong thing at a very wrong
time. So lesson learnt is keep everything to yourself and only say what peoole
wants to hear ( Once again a different view).

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techer
"Anyone who thinks Google needs more Somalis and trannys vs more right-wing
view points is just lying and full of themselves.﻿" 130 likes

I only lasted five minutes.

~~~
teamhappy
You're quoting a comment, right? Or is that from the video itself?

~~~
techer
A comment. Quite sad I have to specify! But fair enough

~~~
teamhappy
> Quite sad I have to specify!

I was pretty sure you were quoting a comment but the "I only lasted five
minutes" in combination with the quote made your comment somewhat ambiguous
and I really didn't want to watch the whole 45 minutes just to figure out if
he said that or not.

------
w4tson
Had two attempts at watching that but the arguments are so bad and the views
so biased I just bailed.

Maybe i'll write my open white paper,throw together some thinly veiled
arguments, sprinkle some graphs and draw the conclusion that conservatives are
total dickheads?

Not all you understand. Just biologically speaking. I'm not saying they are.
I'm actually very pro conservative. But they are dicks right? I just want a
debate in the open about some the evidence I can't be arsed to write. Maybe?

~~~
thanksgiving
We can agree that someone is a dick but still seek to address valid concerns.

I'm surprised to see "feminists" supporting management. We are at war with
management for equal pay. It doesn't matter how or where I was recruited,
equal work should mean equal pay. Management is never your friend.

Google, put your money where your mouth is. Make salary and bonus information
public.

