
3D Color Print - zwieback
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/3dcolorprint.html
======
dolguldur
It's funny how I and other people see hp and immediately think of bad business
practices that lead to a bad experience with the brand.

Relates to the concept that you optimize for what you measure. Not factoring
in that screwing over customers will have some impact down the line is also
like some sort of debt (as in tech debt). It's like long term brand debt.

~~~
gh02t
It's a bit depressing too, considering what the HP brand used to be. They used
to be synonymous with the some of the most cutting-edge, best engineered test
equipment and other electronics gear you could buy. Gear from that era like
the legendary HP3458 multimeter still commands very high prices on the used
market ($5000 or more if calibrated).

Really that part of HP still exists at that level of quality, but they spun it
off as Agilent and later Keysight. Hard to believe they squandered the
original brand so completely, though.

~~~
digi_owl
Funny thing is that said HP still exist.

What people are complaining about is the bottom of the barrel consumer
products hawked out of very storefront the world over.

I have seen similar sentiments aimed towards Acer, yet i have seen Acer
business market laptops survive for ages.

Basically companies like HP and Acer have multiple product ranges with
different QA protocols and different margins. Yet people keep buying the
cheapest consumer offerings and expect something mil-spec.

~~~
ballenf
There are companies that refuse to dilute their brand or sully their image:

\- BMW, Lexus

\- Tiffany's

\- Rolex

Tech companies just think that they are immune to the market forces that keep
other high end brands from skimming off the lower rungs (or at least doing it
with their marquee brand).

The examples are just the first ones from different markets that came to mind.

~~~
skate22
I feel like many tech companies have to support a much broader audience with
more varient use cases than the companies you listed.

Luxury watches sold by rollex only have to do a few things very well, and look
nice. Some major tech companies are constantly under pressure to not only
maintain quality of existing features, but to develop new features to stay
competitive (all of this on updated hardware).

Im not defending any 'bad' products that major tech companies put out, but i
dont think the companies you listed are very comparable.

~~~
mathgeek
> I feel like many tech companies have to support a much broader audience with
> more varient use cases than the companies you listed.

Perhaps the examples of BMW and Lexus, which were provided by the previous
poster, would be a better comparison than Rolex for you? Car companies like
those two, which focus their (multiple) brands for different levels of the
market rather than diversifying the levels of the market covered by their
brand, are a great example of keeping people thinking that one brand is "only
for X type of buyer" while maintaining a presence across all corners of the
market.

------
borgchick
While I am sure the HP solution will run circles around this, in both quality
and in price, but XYZ Printing has introduced a (low cost) inkjet+FDM 3D
printer. Basically it prints a layer with the FDM printer, then prints a layer
of color with the inkjet.

Now, it seems pretty hard to find any good reviews on Youtube about it.
Obviously their marketing material shows it printing fabulous vibrant prints,
but the "3D printing professor" did a review of it, and he ran into a whole
slew of issues. This is his success video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFxKxdGvV0w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFxKxdGvV0w)

Interesting stuff, but looks to be at the infancy stage.

~~~
leggomylibro
Ha, if you think filament is expensive NOW, just wait until you have an HP
printer!

That said, they do provide some interesting cost values which make it sound
like this will probably be in the ballpark of low 6-figures:

>1\. Based on internal and third-party testing for HP Jet Fusion 580 and 5403D
Printers, printing time is a fraction of the time of the printing times of
comparable plastic fused deposition modeling (FDM), stereolithography (SLA),
and material jetting solutions from $20,000 USD to $120,000 USD on market as
of June, 2017. Testing variables for the HP JetFusion 580 3D Printer: Part
quantity: 1 full build chamber of parts from HP Jet Fusion 3D at 10% of
packing density versus same number of parts on above-mentioned competitive
devices; Part size: 30 cm3; Layer thickness: .08 mm/0.003 inches. Competitor
testing variables are comparable.

>2\. Based on internal testing and simulation, HP Jet Fusion 3D average
printing time is up to 10 times faster than average printing time of
comparable fused deposition modeling (FDM) and selective laser sintering (SLS)
printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April,
2016. Testing variables for the HP Jet Fusion 4210/4200/3200 Printing
Solutions: Part quantity: 1 full build chamber of parts from HP Jet Fusion 3D
at 20% of packing density versus same number of parts on above-mentioned
competitive devices; Part size: 30 grams; Layer thickness: 0.08 mm/0.003
inches.

>3\. Based on internal testing and public data, HP Jet Fusion 3D average
printing cost per part is half the average cost of comparable FDM & SLS
printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April,
2016. Cost analysis based on: standard solution configuration price, supplies
price, and maintenance costs recommended by manufacturer. Cost criteria:
printing 1 build chamber per day/5 days per week over 1 year of 30-gram parts
at 10% packing density using HP 3D High Reusability PA 12 material, and the
powder reusability ratio recommended by manufacturer. Based on internal
testing and public data, HP Jet Fusion 3D 4210 Printing Solution average
printing cost-per-part is 65% lower versus the average cost of comparable FDM
and SLS printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of
April, 2016 and is 50% lower versus the average cost of comparable SLS printer
solutions for $300,000 USD to $450,000 USD. Cost analysis based on: standard
solution configuration price, supplies price, and maintenance costs
recommended by manufacturer. Cost criteria: printing 1.4 full build chambers
of parts per day/5 days per week over 1 year of 30-gram parts at 10% packing
density on fast print mode using HP 3D High Reusability PA 12 material, and
the powder reusability ratio recommended by manufacturer.

~~~
NegativeLatency
Fusion printers are even more expensive. You can only re-use the leftover
powder so many times before it needs to be thrown out. The particles start to
clump and melt making your prints less accurate.

------
crwalker
We use HP jet fusion printers to manufacture end use parts (see
[https://www.jabil.com/insights/blog-main/3d-printing-
reality...](https://www.jabil.com/insights/blog-main/3d-printing-reality-
printing-the-printer.html)). They are impressive machines, and I'm excited to
see the full color ones in action. Also, the MJF API is pretty well designed.

~~~
leoedin
Do you work for Jabil or are you just using that article as an example?

How do you find the mechanical properties of the parts? Do they vary print to
print? Do they suffer from the same problems that cheaper 3D printed parts do
- principally either very low strength across the layers (for FDM prints) or
very soft materials (cured epoxy and most of the SLS prints I've dealt with).

~~~
abakker
I was recently at HP labs and got to see the mono color printers in action.
The process is very consistent, and they told me that the parts are very
uniform. Given my own observation of a bunch of finished parts and the active
process, it produces very consistent results.

The pieces were pretty damn durable. (I couldn't break them by hand). They
used either Nylon or Glass Fiber reinforced Nylon.

~~~
abakker
BTW, the printer I saw had made ~70% of itself. So, the parts coming out of it
were good enough to produce many of the parts it requires to operate.

------
Aardwolf
Question totally off topic, related to writing rather than 3D printing!

They call it not just the "HP Jet Fusion 580 Color 3D Printer", but the "HP
Jet Fusion 580 Color 3D Printing Solution"

When I myself would be the target audience, "3D printer" sells better than "3D
printing solution" I think.

Do you know what the true target audience they are writing for is, and if it
really genuinely is so that there are such audiences where adding words like
"Solution" helps the sell? Can you please elaborate on that and give intuition
why?

Same applies for some other such words, like adding "Technology" to something
that is more like a specification, and of course "Enterprise".

Thanks! :D

~~~
theobon
For a company about to spend ~$250,000 on the ability to fabricate 3d models
in house "3D Printing Solution" does message better. A 3D printer is just an
expensive tool that requires expensive software and expensive people to make
it work. A 3D Printing Solution implies a complete suite from installation to
software to support that doesn't require investing in specialized skills.

~~~
reaperducer
It makes sense that someone who uses "message" as a verb would think
"solution" is a good way to brand a printer, 3D or otherwise.

/I kid! I kid!

------
jotux
It's very similar to the Projet x60 (formerly ZPrinters) or projet 4500 series
printers from 3D systems. The printer lays down thin layers of powder material
then goes by with a bonding agent and color as it prints. The prints are
relatively cheap because after the print you can vacuum up the excess material
and use it in subsequent prints.

------
ChuckMcM
Interesting to see HP jumping in here. They certainly have the
positioning/deposit/chemistry expertise to make this work.

I would love to be able to print things on one at the local copy/printing
center, but I'm wondering if they have moved enough down into the price point
to displace what the current SLA shops offer.

And while I've posted things to Thingaverse there is an interesting
opportunity for a curated source of soft 'things' that you could order from a
local service bureau. Shapeways is nice but it doesn't seem quite there yet.

~~~
dubbel
They are already in the 3D printer market, see
[https://youtu.be/F2fIOBtdojY](https://youtu.be/F2fIOBtdojY) from 2016.
Research and development go way back of course. The new thing is the color.

Disclaimer: I worked at HP in the past.

------
notananthem
Full color is nice but it always depends how colorization is handled. If you
ever have to go into 3rd party apps to "paint" colors on, its not worth it. It
needs to be able to handle coloring from the exported file ie color it in
solidworks or creo or whatever.

------
diggan
Maybe my understanding of "Reinvent the wheel" is wrong, but I always took it
as "spend time inventing something that already exists", basically wasting
your time. Didn't think it was a positive term you want to put on your landing
page.

~~~
jpalomaki
See for example Michelin "reinventing" the wheel [1]. Taking old stuff and
recreating them with new kind of internal structure which is made possible by
3d printing.

[1] [https://www.engadget.com/2017/08/07/michelin-vision-
biodegra...](https://www.engadget.com/2017/08/07/michelin-vision-
biodegradable-3d-print-airless-tire/)

~~~
jaclaz
Just for the record/FYI, they already re-invented it as the "tweel" a few
years ago:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweel)

[http://www.michelintweel.com/](http://www.michelintweel.com/)

and it is actually available (and works just fine in some specific
application).

------
sekou
It's amazing to think that not long ago we marveled and scoffed at the
prohibitive cost of 2D computer printing, going from simple monochrome
printouts to highly detailed full color physical manifestations.

------
foxylad
I recently bought/built a really cheap 3D printer to see what it could do, and
I'm finding it more useful and easier to use than I anticipated. I'd say it is
the 3D equivalent of the dot-matrix printer, and this HP beast is the 3D
equivalent of the first colour laser printers.

I think 3D printers will be a much smaller market than paper printers, because
the number of things you need printed is much less than the number of pages we
(used to) need printed.

And although this HP machine looks amazing at first sight, lets look at the
specs: it does about three times the resolution of my 3D printer - and colour
- for A THOUSAND times the price. (Anet A8 0.2mm resolution for $200; Jet
Fusion 0.08mm resolution for $x00,000 according to comments below). OK, colour
is cool, but you could employ an artist to hand-paint your creations for a
tiny fraction of this cost.

I get that this is first to market, but I think they are missing an
opportunity to price lower and build mindshare while they learn the lessons
required to build the cash cow: a consumer machine that does twice the
resolution for ten times the price.

And this needs to happen fast - Brother won't allow HP anywhere near the lead
they got with laser printers last time around.

------
ww520
How much is the ink?

~~~
ethagknight
Ink? Relax, no ink! Just HP Proprietary Multi-Agents (source: HP video on
youtube link below)

------
darkstar999
Can you imagine how much they would charge for the "ink" on these things?

~~~
bpicolo
> HP Jet Fusion 3D 4210 Printing Solution average printing cost-per-part is
> 65% lower versus the average cost of comparable FDM and SLS printer
> solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016

Depends on how much you believe that statement I suppose?

~~~
rangersanger
If you look at the fine print they compared the "default mode" of the other
printers with their "fast mode."

I've evaluated a few 3d printers and from what I recall the default mode is
usually fairly high quality (read uses more material.)

We were about ready to pull the trigger on a competitors printer (~100k
machine) but at the last minute figured out that the media would basically
cost us the salary for a full time employee. Instead we're running a cheapo
FDM machine for parts where quality isn't critical and outsourcing the highend
stuff to shapeways (who are mentioned below.) Overall I've been really happy
with this strategy.

------
aurizon
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXntl3ff5tc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXntl3ff5tc)

~~~
convivialdingo
Good overview. Thanks!

------
wyldfire
Indeed, it's massive and expensive. But this probably falls in line with some
of the floor space/capital budget of the earliest plotters or
copier/scanner/printers.

So maybe in ten years every office will have one.

~~~
amenod
Does every office _need_ one? That's the main difference from 2D printing the
way I see it - unless the printing process gets way better it will never catch
on enough to warrant low prices. Then again, maybe they said the same about
early printers, comparing them to offset press?

------
negus
I bet, they started with cartridges with anti-refill chip, and only then
proceeded with the printer itself

------
mrmondo
Very neat idea - but trust HP to incorporate a disposable, proprietary ink
system with a product like this.

Reminds me of the infographic comparing the cost of HP's black ink to other
liquids, the next most expensive shown (at half the price of the HP black ink)
was human blood: [https://thumbnails-visually.netdna-ssl.com/ink-costs-more-
th...](https://thumbnails-visually.netdna-ssl.com/ink-costs-more-than-human-
blood_50290ced00807_w1500.jpg)

------
projectileboy
It looks amazing, but at this point, why would I trust HP?

------
mihular
Starting at $130,000 no less. I'll stick with my prusa MK2 for a little bit
longer.

~~~
timdorr
They also have ~1500x the build volume (15,643,840 cm3 vs 10500 cm3), so 144x
the cost is possibly warranted. They are two totally different classes of
machine.

~~~
cptskippy
Uh no, HP's build volume is presented in MM, Prusa uses CM. So...

580's build volume: 190 x 332 x 248mm.

Prusa I3 MkIIs build volume: 250 x 210 x 200 mm.

15,643,840 cm3 vs 10,500,000 cm3

------
beamatronic
If you can put one of these very near (in) Amazons warehouses / delivery
network you may not strictly need it in house.

~~~
asperous
So basically like shapeways

------
gfosco
This one has been around for a while:
[https://www.mimakiusa.com/products/3d-printers/mimaki-3d-pri...](https://www.mimakiusa.com/products/3d-printers/mimaki-3d-printer/)

Mimaki is a pretty awesome company.. we have one of their fabric printers, the
tx300p-1800.

------
zengid
Sorry to be that guy but their inspirational video to 'reinvent making' feels
like it was made by Erlich Bachman:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWOGbu5BcT0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWOGbu5BcT0)

------
chrisper
Now, if that printer could be part of
[https://instantink.hpconnected.com](https://instantink.hpconnected.com) it
would be great.

------
glup
Hello HP, Let's work out the bugs with the 2D printers before we move on to
3D. Thx.

------
grenoire
Good Lord, these things are humongous. Not your average hobbyist printer for
sure.

~~~
RobinL
In the long run I hope that the model for this kind of thing will be 'printing
as a service', much like how historically you went to a shop to get photos
developed. It'd be amazing to be able to upload a design and pick it up/get it
delivered next day, for the 'commodity cost' of the printing.

~~~
bradfa
Shapeways already has HP Jet Fusion printers (albeit not with the color
printing abilities) that they'll print parts for you on-demand with for quite
reasonable prices. It's not "next day" delivery, but it's not far off from how
mail-order film photo developing/printing works.

[https://www.shapeways.com/materials/hp-jet-
fusion](https://www.shapeways.com/materials/hp-jet-fusion)

------
yuhong
Thinking about it, it probably won't cost that much more to officially support
basic PCB printing in almost all their printers, right?

------
rfraile
Apart - Why they use the url with the "www8." name instead of "www."?

~~~
discreditable
HP's website is legendarily disorganized and horrible.

------
digi_owl
Following some links around i get the impression that this is using laser
sintering.

~~~
zwieback
It's a powder bed, like laser sintering, but the melt energy comes from IR
light sources. The parts of the bed that were printed on melt under the
lights, the other parts stay powdery and can be recycled.

~~~
digi_owl
Heh, i knew i should have left the laser part out.

Anyways, would be interesting to see this way of doing 3d printing find its
way to the hobbyist market at some point.

------
ryen
Fingers crossed we don't see "PC Load Material" errors..

------
bob_theslob646
How does this printer differ from other 3D printers on the market?

~~~
onesun
Full color. But as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it's nothing new.
Printer's with this functionality have been around for 15+ years. HP is like
Apple, take an existing technology, sprinkle liberally with hip marketing, and
boom! -- act like you invented it.

~~~
gene-h
Their printing process is pretty new. Sure printers that can print in color
have existed for a while now, but they weren't able to produce strong parts
like this printer does. Other printers that produced similar strong parts also
couldn't print as fast as this printer.

~~~
borgchick
I wonder if the target audience of this printer even care about material
properties like strength. I mean, what functional parts do you know of, in
your car, bike, washing machine, are in full colour?

I feel like the people who want full colour will be making pre-production
sample prints for marketing purposes.

------
rkagerer
How much do they cost? What kind of printing technology?

~~~
Ajedi32
The site claims:

> delivering quality output, up to 10 times faster[2] at half the cost[3]

And, reading the fine print:

> Based on internal testing and public data, HP Jet Fusion 3D average printing
> cost per part is half the average cost of comparable FDM & SLS printer
> solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016.
> Cost analysis based on: standard solution configuration price, supplies
> price, and maintenance costs recommended by manufacturer. Cost criteria:
> printing 1 build chamber per day/5 days per week over 1 year of 30-gram
> parts at 10% packing density using HP 3D High Reusability PA 12 material,
> and the powder reusability ratio recommended by manufacturer. Based on
> internal testing and public data, HP Jet Fusion 3D 4210 Printing Solution
> average printing cost-per-part is 65% lower versus the average cost of
> comparable FDM and SLS printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD
> on market as of April, 2016 and is 50% lower versus the average cost of
> comparable SLS printer solutions for $300,000 USD to $450,000 USD. Cost
> analysis based on: standard solution configuration price, supplies price,
> and maintenance costs recommended by manufacturer. Cost criteria: printing
> 1.4 full build chambers of parts per day/5 days per week over 1 year of
> 30-gram parts at 10% packing density on fast print mode using HP 3D High
> Reusability PA 12 material, and the powder reusability ratio recommended by
> manufacturer.

So, sounds like we're talking something on the order of 50-150k per year or so
if you're planning to use this frequently. Definitely not a consumer-focused
solution.

------
erric
Can we please not link the commercials?

------
shiven
Not touching an HP printer with a barge pole. Fuck you HP.

~~~
dang
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

~~~
shiven
Merely sharing a strongly held opinion here.

HP _is_ the cancer of modern printing - anyone who crossed paths with their
“region locked” printers/cartridges - can attest to that statement.

~~~
dang
Yes, stating a "strongly held opinion" without explaining why is one kind of
unsubstantive comment we don't need here. Adding information, like you did in
this reply, makes it better. Adding name-calling, like you did above, makes it
worse.

