
Is this uncommon for a startup... - jmtame

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SwellJoe
Sounds like management has serious problems.

You never want key members of the team to have questions about whether their
effort is going to be rewarded in the event of a nice liquidity event. 0.2%
would be great if you're working for the next Google--but even Google gave
away more then 0.2% to their first employee. If it's not the next Google,
think long and hard about how you're spending your time. The only reason
anyone, other than the founders, works for a startup is for the liquidity
event (or a solid future of profit sharing if no such event is planned). When
we hire our first full-time employee we expect to offer them 1-5%, depending
on their other compensation requirements and what they bring to the team.

Also, 12-14 hour days and seven day weeks are not productive over a sustained
period, and they're a sign that the founders don't have a lot of real world
experience. It can work out, if everyone is just that passionate and feels
like founding members of a great company, but I don't think 0.2% (vested over
four years) would make me feel like a founding member.

I'd say get out...Not just because the carrot (0.2%) is much smaller than the
stick (12-14 hour days), but because I'd lay good odds on this company failing
fast. From the small bits of data we have, I believe your companies management
is incompetent.

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patrickg-zill
I question how productive someone working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for
multiple weeks, can actually be. NASA's software engineers come in and work
hard writing truly mission-critical software for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
Then they stop. NASA found that going over 40 hours a week resulted in more
bugs and errors, which meant that ultimately it took longer to produce the
desired software at the desired level of quality.

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jimd
12-14 hours 7-day a week shouldn't be normal anywhere. Even ignoring work/life
balance debates, people get fatigued and those extra hours have negative
incremental contributions. Working people that long _delays_ your release in
the short term and engenders resentment among employees in the long term.
Sounds like inexperienced management to me.

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pmarca
That's a little extreme.

How much do you like the company, the project, and the co-founders aside from
this issue?

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jmtame
The co-founders will ask you to stay for ~12-14 hours per day, 7 days per week
for up to 3 weeks at a time without breaks.

Personally, I have 0.2% in the company (vested over 4 years) and don't receive
a 6 figure salary, but I'm also very good at the technical work I do.

I'm just curious if this is a very typical thing to see. Is 12-14 hour days
for this compensation good? The work is extremely stressful, to say the least.

~~~
rms
Sounds unreasonable to me, unless you're in some kind of predefined "crunch"
period.

~~~
jmtame
we are, but this is nearly the 4th week straight ;)

~~~
rms
So at this point, you can ask for more money, more shares, or normal hours.
Will they fire you if you ask for more? It doesn't sound like you're easily
replaceable.

~~~
jmtame
Correct--I'm not an easy person to replace, especially considering my age. I
might consider that.

~~~
dhouston
well, the negotiation will take some finesse, and might not have a happy
ending.

if both sides were happy with the prior terms and had the same expectations --
i.e. you didn't really understand or investigate your compensation compared to
market value, and/or they deliberately lowballed you -- they're probably not
going to be thrilled about revising things right now if they're also stressed
out with the crunch and also not too excited about paying more for the same
labor (or having other stressed out employees grumble for more comp, or
wondering if you'll threaten to leave again in the future, etc.)

so even though you may be justified in asking for more, it might be tough to
get it given the constraints on their end. if, though, both sides expected at
the outset you'd be working a normal 40 hr week and you're working 2x that,
then the negotiation would probably be easier.

the good news is you'd have no problem snatching up another (probably cooler)
gig -- just look at the yc job postings :)

~~~
jmtame
Well, the situation is this:

I was the first employee, and I came on board when the first round of angel
investing was made. There are currently 2 other employees, and 2 co-founders.
One is business-oriented, one technical. I work probably a few hours less than
the co-founder (per week).

The tech co-founder seems to be somewhat slow to pushing updates, as he gets
sidetracked micro-managing the 3 team members (who are all graduates, except
myself). E-mails that come from investors are usually ignored, for the fear
that they will "distract the dev team." I'm not sure if that's normal either.

I'm new to joining startups, and don't understand investment and equity as
well. Obviously, I need to starting learning more ;) That's one disadvantage
of being as young as I am and joining a startup (I'm not old enough to buy a
drink, let's put it that way). I'm glad I got some feedback on this though..

~~~
nostrademons
0.2% seems really low for a first employee. I have no equity with my current
employer (employee #10 or so), but my boss also doesn't expect more than 8
hours and pays a competitive salary. My other offer was about 0.01% as
employee #22. In a previous startup, I had about 0.1% as employee #13, but
that was straight out of high school (the two recent ones have been as a
graduate of a top college). I've heard that 2.5% or so is typical for the
first employee, and it decreases exponentially from there.

I'd give some thought to what you want to get out of a startup. If you're just
looking for experience (as I am, mostly), the equity isn't too important, and
the real criteria should be whether you're learning stuff and are involved in
decisions. If you want to get rich, be aware that 0.2% of a typical $40M exit
is only $80K - not chump change, but you can't look at it as any more than a
nice bonus. It will take a $500M exit to make you a million dollars, which
basically means you either need a _really_ hot product
(Facebook/MySpace/YouTube) or you need to be able to go public. Salary also
factors in - if you're being underpaid by $20K relative to market rates, your
stock payout would get eaten up in 4 years.

If you're in it for money, I would suggest trying to renegotiate. Losing the
first employee would be a tragedy for most startups, so they'd probably be
willing to go up to 1-2% equity if they're smart. They may not like it, but
part of being a successful entrepreneur is doing stuff you don't like for the
good of your company.

If they aren't smart or their ego gets in the way, you want to leave now
anyways, because they aren't going anywhere. Also, try to have another job
offer in hand when you renegotiate - it helps your bargaining power
significantly.

The micro-managing is a bit of a red-flag. It happens _a lot_ with technical
cofounders. My current boss has a bad case of it. I had a bad case with it the
first time I managed a software project (at a volunteer nonprofit), and
letting go and actually trusting the other developers to do things right was
one of the hardest things I had to do on that project. The usual result is
that the business stagnates and doesn't go anywhere, then folds when the
employees all leave because the business isn't going anywhere.

~~~
sbraford
I too wonder how founders who own 30-40% of a company (who want to work 80
hours a week) can expect the same of an employee who owns only .5% or less.

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maliciouskitty
Well, 12-14 hours a day is pretty much the norm for a startup right?

I am, too, living thru prelaunch of my startup. But think of looking back at
yourself 10 years later... you will be proud that you live through this. If
you have the passion, this is the time to be.

~~~
nostrademons
Not necessarily - 12-14 hours is what the startup mythology says, but there's
a _wide_ variance depending upon lines of business, business models, growth
strategies, capital structures, etc. Working 12-14 hours/day for sustained
periods of time is more likely to indicate that management sucks than that
you're actually getting stuff done.

A few data points:

Before college, I worked at a VC-backed startup selling remote-access software
to large corporations (well...planning to sell...they never launched). The
core engineers typically worked 12-14 hours/day to put out a very buggy
product.

Same startup, I knew an engineer who was employee #35 and later VP of
Engineering at Stratus Computers. She said that yeah, if you have to hit a
deadline, 10-12 hour days may be normal, but if you're doing it regularly
you're doing something wrong. You should not have to work more than 8
hours/day to put out a decent product.

I'm currently working at a bootstrapped financial software startup, selling
direct to hedge funds. The founder works about 10 hours/day; the rest of us
work about 8 hours/day. The company is profitable.

My other job offer was for a VC-funded financial software startup, selling to
smaller brokerages. Founders typically worked 12ish hour days, most of the
rest of the employees worked 9-10 hour days. The company was not profitable at
the time I applied, though they've been growing well since and may be by now.

According to Founders at Work, del.icio.us and Bloglines were both founded by
single founders who kept their day jobs, and Steve Wozniak spent the first
year of Apple Computer's lifetime employed by Hewlett-Packard. I'm assuming
that means 3-4 hours/day on weekdays, plus full weekends.

I'm in a similar position: 3-4 hours/day of work, keeping my day job, about to
launch after 5 months or so (including a month hiatus when we worked on a side
project).

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aquafina
I was offered 1% of a startup recently and a chance to be employee #12, I
turned it down, the salary offered along with it wasn't livable (and I mean
livable, not doable).

Do what you need to do to survive, but I would suggest you are being taken
advantage of.

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ivan
Are they working as much as you? If not, don't ask for better compensation and
leave them. Nobody can't stand in such conditions too long.

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mm
seems like you're getting screwed. Try to get a better deal or jump ship. Man
do i hate people who screw others.

