
Steve Wozniak speaks out against NSA spying: this is not my America - tjaerv
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130617/11133123507/steve-wozniak-speaks-out-against-nsa-spying-this-is-not-my-america.shtml
======
swombat
Looks like some people are flagging this. It just dropped from 1st place to
10th, even though it has 72 points in 40 minutes.

To those who think the NSA stories shouldn't be brought back up towards the
top of HN until this mess is sorted (for months if it needs to be), for those
who think the future of our world is not more important than some change of
license on MySQL documentation, I hope you lose your flag privileges, you
traitors.

If we can't focus on an important story for a few months, we deserve all the
crap we're gonna get.

~~~
JeremyMorgan
Usually I'm one of the first to complain about such things, I don't like it
when HN gets too political. But this is too important of a discussion to
ignore. We can still talk about the latest JS framework or NoSQL engine and
some quirky startup and still dedicate some mindshare something that threatens
it all.

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robomartin
At a fundamental level the questions we have to answer are:

    
    
      What does it mean to be free?
    
      What is the proper role of government in that context?
    
      What do we allow government to do in that context?  What are their limits?
    

This, in a way, is what I feel is lost.

As a simple example: Why is it that a total stranger (TSA) can touch every
part of your body and even have you strip searched just because you are
travelling? Why is it that I, as a parent, can't tell that person to keep
his/her hands off my little girl? What happened to the presumption of
innocence?

At any US airport you are presumed guilty and have to demonstrate your
innocence by being subject to search and seizure (swiss army knives, shampoo,
etc. taken away --your property).

This TSA problem is an analog of the surveiilance problem. The vast majority
of the people logging 1.6 billion person-trips per year [1] are not
terrorists. Yet, 100% of them are presumed guilty and subject to search and
seizure. And we allow it.

Now we have a situation where 100% of Americans are presumed to be potential
terrorists in the future [2]. Based on that We now justify logging and
tracking your every move and every communication.

Steve Wozniac is right, this is what we were told others did to their
population, not us. We were above that, better than that. Right.

[1]
[http://www.ustravel.org/sites/default/files/page/2009/11/US_...](http://www.ustravel.org/sites/default/files/page/2009/11/US_Travel_Answer_Sheet_March_2013.pdf)

[2] Senator Dianne Feinstein explained that we need this data in case someone
becomes a terrorist in the future

------
ChrisAntaki
He makes some solid points. To return to the America he remembers, we need to
repeal the Patriot Act.

------
Zigurd
There is a technology solution to the crisis of trust caused by the NSA
revelations: Internet services could start offering secure email and
communications.

Yet not a peep about that.

~~~
footoverhand
It would be much better to not trust Internet services with your security,
because you'd still have to trust them.

A better solution would be to add your own encryption on top of all of your
communications, and to toss out your cell phone. Patterns can still be created
by what websites your IP visits (or any VPN exit that is linked to you), who
you contact, and where you go. Deploying a relatively secure communications
system ends up with you talking to a few people "securely", but not
anonymously.

It also depends on how much you trust your OS (Microsoft has been working with
the NSA since 2007, in what ways, we may never know).

~~~
Zigurd
Google or any other online service could gain a lot of trust by offering open
source clients that enable encryption by default and easy to use ephemeral-key
systems for real time communication and PKI for email and documents in their
cloud.

------
icpmacdo
I want to hear Steve Wozniak on a podcast or tv show, he is such a smart dude.

------
huma
He's one of the gentlest people I know. If Woz is up in arms, something is
really going on.

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will_brown
My stomach churns at many of the outrageous over reaches of the US Government:
secret kill lists; secret criteria to get on secret kill lists; indefinite
detention without due process; warrantless wiretapping; warrantless collection
of all electronic communication; illegal wars (perhaps the most debatable, but
I would go toe to toe with anyone in a real discussion on this vis-a-vis the
UN Charter)

I agree it is our duty to speak up, be heard and demand better of our
government; however, my stomach churns equally at the notion of people
thinking they grew up in a country so much different than it is today. It does
not matter how far you go back there have always been these kinds of
governmental abuses: the genocide of Native Americans; slavery; indefinite
detention of Japanese in internment camps; apartheid (separate but equal/Jim
Crow Laws); covert wars (support the Afghan mujahideen during the Soviet war
in Afghanistan; Nicaraguan contras; installing the Cuban Batista regime;
installing Saddam and the Ba'ath party); illegal wars: Vietnam (again
debatable); war time atrocities (May Lai Massacre); torture (during Vietnam US
military had interrogation handbooks that directed stipping POW's naked in the
forest and covering their orifices with honey and allowing flys and bugs to
swarm); Watergate (manipulated elections); CIA infiltrating organizations such
as the ACLU.

We can not blindly look at our current state of affairs and yearn to be what
we once were, because we were never anything different, it is far more
important to look toward history and not allow the same mistakes to
continually be repeated. I think one of the most important things to take away
from Wozniak's words is how the dialogue has changed and we will not blindly
fall in line to the tune of patriotic propaganda but ordinary citizenry will
stand up and be the true check on the government that was always intended.
When I look at the US Constitution I see two things, rights and powers, and I
must say I feel a lot more comfortable when the balance is greatly in favor of
rights over powers. Allow me to end with one of my favorite political quotes,
“Every generation needs a new revolution.” Thomas Jefferson (Note, I believe
revolutions can be accomplished through non-violent means)

~~~
ekianjo
> however, my stomach churns equally at the notion of people thinking they
> grew up in a country so much different than it is today. It does not matter
> how far you go back there have always been these kinds of governmental
> abuses

I think you get it wrong. Because even if they were abuses before, they were
clearly illegal and you could make a case against them. Now, they enact laws
to make constitutional rights null and void. It's way worse because it opens
up the Pandora box on all new kind of abuses with no way for the Law to
protect yourself.

~~~
will_brown
>Because even if they were abuses before, they were clearly illegal

Not the case. Some of the examples I give were in fact codified into law.
Examples: slavery; Jim Crow Laws; Vietnam.

Try telling those people affected by separate but equal, that we have it so
much worse today, because they could make a case, and that they had law
protecting them. Long before Brown v. Board and Brown v. Board II the Supreme
Court heard cases on separate but equal/Jim Crow laws and found them
constitutional.

You are correct that some of my examples were not codified into law, but we
have those examples today such as the IRS having directives to target certain
groups for additional scrutiny, it does not make it any better that such
behavior is a directive only and not codified into law. I believe there is no
answer that fits every situation, but in theory at least there is a mechanism
to challenge Unconstitutional laws, but good luck challenging a secret
directive that violates Constitutional rights.

