
Pricing niche products - speps
https://kevinlynagh.com/notes/pricing-niche-products/
======
whack
When eBay first started, I loved the idea of auctions as a way to set market
prices. From an economic and game-theory perspective, it is so optimal!

Clearly as later examples like Amazon have shown, auctions don't make sense
for most product categories. I believe this is mainly due to psychological
reasons.

Decision-fatigue is a real thing. People dislike having to think hard. In a
fixed-price sale, the buyer just has to ask themselves one yes/no question: _"
Would I be happy buying this item for $X?"_ This is a very simple question to
answer. In a sealed-bid auction, people have to ask themselves _" What $X am I
willing to pay for this item"_, which is a tremendously more complex question
to answer. In fact, from a game theory perspective, you should never put in a
bid that you're "happy with". You should put in a bid where you're exactly
neutral between buying-vs-not-buying. Otherwise, you're leaving money on the
table. This is asking people to make purchasing decisions whose outcomes will
leave them explicitly _not happy_ \- a state of mind that every person hates
putting themselves in.

Couple this together with the fact that the buyer doesn't even know whether
they won the auction, until X hours/days later. And during this period of
time, they are under a state of uncertainty, which is another mental state
that people generally hate.

I think that for very expensive, non-time-critical and hobbyist items, an
auction may work great. People may actually enjoy pouring effort into it
because it is their hobby. But for any item that people just want to buy-and-
move-on, auctions are a horrible mechanism. Perhaps one day when AI assistants
make all our purchasing decisions for us, auctions will become the norm, but
certainly not today.

~~~
catherd
On top of decision fatigue and needing to know the market, losing auctions
gets expensive fast if you value your time.

~~~
specialist
aka transaction costs

Book I read about market design estimated that only 30% of commerce was done
in an open market. Relationships, fulfillment, quality, service, returns, etc
are all factors too. All those non-price intangibles that the Freedom Markets™
zealots ignore.

~~~
JanisL
This book sounds interesting, what is the name of this book?

------
ghaff
With respect to the high price, it seems pretty simple really. Some people
have a fair bit of money that they're willing to spend on their enthusiasms.
This wouldn't even be a notable question if, instead of mechanical keyboards,
we were talking "designer" handbags, shoes, custom-made suits, etc.

The auction question is more interesting. Auctions are well accepted when
there's clear scarcity or uniqueness in what's being sold. With manufactured
good, we at least harbor illusions that there's some relationship with cost.
But for niche items, that's not really true of course.

~~~
closetohome
Well I guess that's sort of the answer to the author's question about why
auctions aren't used more often. The same way we (most of us anyway) wouldn't
trust a company that begins with a crowdfunding campaign, selling your items
at auction makes it look like you've done no market research and have no
business plan. And I'm reluctant to back a company without business sense or a
plan.

~~~
ghaff
>I'm reluctant to back a company without business sense or a plan.

Depends on what I'm buying really. I don't really care if an artist has a
business plan. Indeed, I figure they probably don't or they wouldn't be an
artist. But a manufactured good that I might expect support or replacement for
defects for? Sure. By and large, I don't want an artisan laptop.

------
CommieBobDole
These things have become so esoteric and expensive because the mechanical
keyboard hobby is undergoing a more intense version of what happens to most
hobbies/pastimes; the purpose of the hobby has transitioned from primarily
"making/using the thing" to "obtaining and displaying ever more extreme
versions of the thing to impress other people who know about the thing".

I feel like this is an outgrowth of the basic human desire to form groups and
define an in-group and an out-group; people start a hobby because they are
interested in whatever, but after a while there develops an (often arbitrary)
right way and wrong way to pursue the hobby, cliques form, and after a while
participating in the hobby becomes an exercise in demonstrating that you've
bought/made/done the right things and are therefore worthy of being in the in-
group instead of the out-group.

I think this is so strong in the mechanical keyboard community because there's
not a lot of "there" there; mechanical keyboards are nice to type on, but
there's no core competitive activity that they're used for - you're not
spending $1600 on a keyboard to improve your typing speed and accuracy 1.2% so
you can have a shot at winning the big annual World Typing Tournament in Las
Vegas. The mechanical keyboard community feels to me more like the streetwear
or sneakerhead community than, say, R/C planes or surfing or whatever.

~~~
SuperPaintMan
Very much signalling, you want something that sets you apart from other users
and if that means custom CNC'd cases, with harvested switches that have been
lubed using the finest tears mounted on a custom plate. So you have something
to ogle and show off to the others. And that's before we get into the scarcity
territory that sees secondhand TGR Alices going for over 5K.

It's weird, a good chunk of people buy my Georgis [1] and _don't actually use
them_. It's a strange feeling to have something bought only because it's
different and to be collected. I think keyboards are to be used, not hoarded
personally but in this community it's very common to own at least a dozen
boards.

It's very weird.

[1] [https://www.gboards.ca/](https://www.gboards.ca/)

~~~
criley2
It's funny how on hacker news apparently buying a fancy keyboard for your home
where no one can see it is "signalling", but if you point out that wearing
Apple watch, holding iPhone, and displaying those ear buds is also
signalling/branding/status symboling, I am generally very aggressively
downvoted.

I'd say buying a mechanical keyboard with RGB lights and nice switches is
probably 100X less signalling (several orders of magnitude) than buying a $300
phone for $1100 and wearing gaudy white ear buds.

It's very rare personally that I see other people's setups. It's not like
people lug around $300 keyboards with their laptops.

But walk down any popular street in any major city and I bet you can tell who
is signalling that they're part of the apple brand.

~~~
dsabanin
Did it ever occur to you that people buy Apple stuff because it’s just
good/better?

~~~
criley2
Did it ever occur to you that people buy mechanical keyboards because it's
just good/better?

(And P.S. subjective ideas of good/better are what they are, but no fair
objective analysis of price and value would agree with you. A thousand dollar
phone is a pure status symbol and owning it has nothing to do with a rational
attempt to achieve value per dollar)

~~~
umanwizard
I own a $1000 phone and avoid as much as possible other people in public
seeing it, because I don't want it to get stolen and I think being recognized
for owning a "status symbol" is awkward.

Is it really so hard to believe that some people buy the most expensive iPhone
simply because it's the best phone available on the market?

~~~
criley2
"Is it really so hard to believe that some people buy the most expensive
iPhone simply because it's the best phone available on the market?"

I can believe that you THINK it's the best, and worth the money -- that's
literally what advertising is for and how status symbols work -- but of course
I would reject any claim that any $1000 phone is worth it on the merits.
(Example, this 'pro' branded flagship phone comes standard with a bottom-of-
the-industry 32GB of space, a laughably inferior specification for 2019
flagships where 64gb is standard and 128gb base is available. That's
objectively the worst, not the best).

~~~
CDSlice
The iPhone 11 and 11 Pro both have a base storage of 64gb. If you are going to
claim that a phone is overpriced at least get the specs you're complaining
about right.

------
Palomides
I think the author underestimates how amateurish many people selling keyboard
parts are (i.e. rarely fully or never committed to the work as their
employment, and without any experience in sales, manufacturing, marketing,
distribution). Optimizing pricing or marketing strategies is not, afaict,
deeply considered. Money is consistently left on the table. Look into the
madness of first-party 'artisan' keycap sales, for example.

To be fair, there's nothing really wrong with this, since it is just a hobby
for most people involved, and these sorts of products really often are just
making something you want to exist and selling a few more to meet minimum
order quantity.

~~~
_jal
As you say, this is not a massive commodity market. A lot of the folks, if
they've been involved for a while, know each other. People gift each other
things all the time.

It is a market, but a lot of the participants have motivations other than
profit-maximization.

------
random3
There's even Keycon
[https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=98877.0](https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=98877.0)

If you want to see the full range and get a sense of what this is about:
[https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/](https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/)
[https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/](https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/)

1.6K seems a bit steep. You can find most kits in the low 00s However
mechanical keyboards are popular with gamers and more about collectibles / art
than anything, so price becomes less relevant.

If you're after ergonomics and efficiency Keyboard.io and Ergodox offer
decently priced pre built split keyboards.

I personally find the keyboard.io camera mount genius - take a look at a few
setups here [https://community.keyboard.io/t/what-does-your-rsi-
helping-s...](https://community.keyboard.io/t/what-does-your-rsi-helping-
setup-look-like/1603/29)

More resources: [https://unikeyboard.io](https://unikeyboard.io)
[https://clueboard.co/](https://clueboard.co/)
[https://www.dygma.com/raise/](https://www.dygma.com/raise/)

~~~
cestith
My Keyboard.io Model 1s are still my two favorite keyboards. I backed them on
KickStarter and I'm glad I did. I'll still point out this article to Jesse and
Kaia to make sure they're mindful of the option for future models.

~~~
dmix
The example on [https://keyboard.io](https://keyboard.io) using RGB looks so
tacky. Why mix light coloured wood with a rainbow RGB look? A simple vintage
or black keyset would be more than sufficient.

A big part of mech keyboards are they designs and sadly both keyboard.io and
Ergodox aren't the prettiest.

I'm curious why there's no companies producing economic split keyboards at
scale and with a clean look.

Edit: the link above to [https://www.dygma.com](https://www.dygma.com) looks
nice and simple, closer to what I'm looking for. Although it's still bought
into the annoying RGB-everything trend.

~~~
cestith
The lights have several preset modes. That picture is just one of them. Some
of them are single color. Some "breathe".

The board is also microcontroller powered and runs an open source OS that
takes modular plugins. You could set your own static or dynamic lighting
pattern. I goes you could also paint or stain the case if you wanted.

------
phaus
I have a $600+ keyboard so I'm a part of this hobby. However, only a part of
this can be explained by the expense of manufacturing at a small scale. The
hobby fully embraces the drawbacks of the small scale and intentionally does
nothing to try to improve it because the exclusivity drives prices up to an
insane point.

A typical group buy for a popular case sells out in minutes or days time after
time. Clearly some of the exclusivity is artificial.

An aluminum case that costs $300 is often 99% as nice as one for $1000.

There are designers lauded as geniuses that make cases that are almost
identical to generic ones. It might have some kind of logo or inlay or a
different color of anodized aluminum. Aftermarket they'll be worth insane
amounts of money.

And with keycaps pretty much the entire thing is artificial exclusivity.
$300-400 aftermarket for a set of keycaps is not unheard of.

There's nothing wrong with any of this, but as a happy participant I have to
say the diminishing returns show up hard and fast in this hobby. Its all about
fashion.

My $60 GMMK, with 20 minutes of easy modifications, a $30 set of keycaps, and
a $90 set of healios switches was the smoothest linear keyboard I've ever
used.

If you want clicky, the same setup with a $30 set of Box Jade switches will
get most people the best keyboard they've ever used. Mx blues feel like rubber
domes afterwards.

Interesfing article that talks about some of this. I recommend reading it.

Why did I pay $600+? I wanted an Ergodox split keyboard with helios switches +
backlighting, to see if my wrists would feel better, and I didn't think I was
ready to build a kit that required soldering.

My Keycaps cost 170 of that. They are modelled after the Space Cadet keyboard
from an old LISP Machine. This was uneccessary obviously but I liked them.

~~~
ghaff
>the diminishing returns show up hard and fast in this hobby.

Of course that's true with lots of things. Cameras, audio equipment, video
gear. Whenever I go into B&H Photo in NYC I'm always struck by how quickly the
prices go up as you transition from pretty serviceable amateur gear to the pro
stuff.

~~~
flmontpetit
Seems less like diminishing returns and more like mass hysteria at this point.
The only people I personally know of who are as detached from the rest of the
market are those guys who collect Telecasters.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
Also vintage synthesizer collectors - although that market tops out around
$150k, which is cheap compared to the most expensive one-off Steinway Grand
piano models, which go for between $1m and $2m.

And high end audio - turntables for $650k, etc.

~~~
flmontpetit
I think there's a difference between "enthusiast market segment" and
"investment commidities". Also even Yamaha grand pianos aren't typically
purchased by individuals. More like venues, etc. AFAIK most of those
prestigious Steinway models wind up in the lobbies of luxury hotels. Point is
those things justify their prices in a way that $1500 keyboards don't.

But honestly I'm being cynical for no reason here. Those guy can spend money
on whatever makes them happy. I am in no place to judge.

------
equalunique
It's disappointing how so much money is being poured into "mechanical keyboard
kits" that simply re-create the old ANSI/ISO layouts that are rooted in old
limitations from the days of the typewriter. Alternate layouts &
ortholinear/ergonomic designs should be the forefront of the movement. All
this focus on outdated designs makes the community "accessible" but also holds
people back.

The emergence of row-staggered 40% boards is a particular disappointing
anachronism. Don't think ortholinear boards can compete? OLKB boards usually
sell several thousand every time a group buy runs, and the OLKB main store has
a several-month long wait list. People who buy keycaps for these can end up
spending $140 for 140 keycaps, 48 of which they'll ever even use... $200
minimum if they don't want Qwerty. The demand is there.

People dream about that old GITS typing scene, but we'll never achieve it when
our instagram influencers are always hyping this kind of stuff. Japan at least
has the right focus - Corne, Helidox, Lily58, Biacco42, and NumAtreus were all
created in the past couple of years, with countless more coming.

~~~
ghaff
>Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonimic designs should be the forefront of
the movement.

Ehh. There are a lot of good reasons to have layouts that are fairly common
across all the equipment you'll use. From what I've seen, while there may be
some advantages to different layouts and configurations, very few things are
so compelling as to warrant a wholesale change outside of some niches like
court stenographers for which specialized training is justified.

~~~
yummypaint
I don't think consistency is an issue unless other people need to use the
unusual equipment. For example I think most people who use dvorak on their
personal system have no trouble at all switching back to qwerty as needed, at
least that has been my experience.

~~~
ipqk
I'm a 15 year dvorak user, and I can no longer type on qwerty keyboards at all
— it's just hunt and peck really. But qwerty keyboards on the phone are just
fine.

------
tentboy
I am the owner of several keyboards whose total price is a few thousand. Most
of that comes from one rare board which can fetch $3k+ in the aftermarket (TGR
Jane V2 CE).

I really have a hard time explaining to people my purchases because it is just
something I like for some reason. I love the customization and I liken it to
having a project car... something I am saving up for right now.

I have also attended meetups and met a ton of great people through the hobby,
so it is not just all throwing money around there is a social component.

Happy to answer any keyboard related questions!

------
lewisflude
I'm in the $600+ club too (Kepler that has a full brass bottom weight 6+kg,
Kepler 65 with it's forged carbon top etc.)

It's a really strange hobby. A bunch of people who really value and love
keyboards, the thing that sits between a human and a computer, a tool that
many (developers, writers, gamers) use every day for hours on end.

Similar to how someone might invest in a nice knife if they love cooking,
luxury-priced tools are quite a common category you see in hobbies.

The community is nice, and the pursuit of "endgame" continually drives supply,
demand and the prices that go along with it up consistently. Next year, I
wouldn't be surprised if we see several new $1000+ keyboards playing around
with new finishes, materials and designs that cater to the high end of the
hobby.

~~~
phjesusthatguy3
HN lambasts audiophiles every time stupid expensive audio gear comes up, yet
here we are paying $hundreds for gimmick keyboard stuff.

SF developers making $100k or two a year just aren't in the same money league
of the audiophiles spending $thousands on speaker wire.

EDIT: I'm not mad at any of the above groups I've mentioned; everybody gets
their kicks from something, as well they should. I'm just mentioning what I
see.

~~~
james-mcelwain
The key difference being audiophiles often fail A/B tests comparing audio
quality. You would _definitely_ notice how nice an expensive mechanical
keyboard feels. Whether you think that is worth luxury pricing is another
story, but the quality is at least more immediately appreciable.

~~~
antoinealb
I would be interested in seeing an AB test of keyboard enthusiast between say
a 200$ keyboard and one that is 5x as expensive. Audiophiles also claimed that
they would _definitely_ notice a difference.

~~~
dwild
I can't speak for him and I'm not saying I agree with this, but I believe what
he means is that what they buy it for is actually what they get.

Audiophile are buying it for better audio, but the quality isn't actually
better.

Keyboard enthusiast buy it for different materials, finishes, color scheme,
sets of switches, sets of keycaps, etc... They all can be done in a better or
inferior quality.

I wouldn't agree with it because it's mostly defining the object by its
aesthetics features.

~~~
james-mcelwain
Yes, this is what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that the margins of quality
are worth a 5x price point (it's not), but it's not quite the same as some of
the voodoo beliefs among audiophiles that a 20k tube amp makes an appreciable
difference.

As a disclosure, I own expensive audiophile gear, but, again, for the
aesthetics primarily. I would be much happier with audiophiles if they just
said they like the aesthetics.

------
artiscode
Oh wow, I have been living under a rock. My friends and family consider me a
mechanical keyboard enthusiast/geek because I have two mechanical keyboards
and a simple 6 switch tester that I used prior to purchasing my first
mechanical keyboard, the CM Masterkeys Pro S RGB. I've tried explaining why I
ordered a tester, why I chose Cherry MX Blues, but I don't think I managed to
get my point across. So here I am, having spent around $250 on both my
keyboards, an outrageous amount in the eyes of my non-technical friends and
mom. At least my wife supports me, telling me she doesn't understand, but she
likes seeing me so hyped and enthusiastic about it. Turns out I haven't spent
that much! Interesting article and even more interesting discussion here on
HN... I find it hard to justify paying $1,668 for a keyboard, but then again -
it's an enthusiast market and I see the appeal.

~~~
rland
Your wife and family got off easy! You could have developed an affinity for...
I don't know, boating, or restoring vintage Ford Mustangs, or watch
collecting.

There are some things that people -- even the regular "non-rich" \-- spend
_insane_ amounts of money on.

------
d--b
One point that is not much discussed here is that software programmers earn
generally quite a lot of money, and do tend to spend less on luxury items than
bankers, which often means they have some cash on hands for this sort of
things.

The custom keyboard kit is like the banker's rollex.

------
terrellm
I so want to get into mechnical keyboards but most of my work is done on a
2015 MacBook Pro and I'm so efficient with the large trackpad - I rest my
palms on the laptop and can reach everything with just a pivot of the wrist. I
tried the Magic Trackpad, but I kept having to move my forearm and it just
slowed me down too much.

What kind of mouse or trackpad is everyone using with these $xxx - $xxxx
keyboards?

~~~
miceexpert
> _What kind of mouse or trackpad is everyone using with these $xxx - $xxxx
> keyboards?_

Mice with holes. Your mouse must have holes.

[https://i.redd.it/i5s6j18i3hp31.jpg](https://i.redd.it/i5s6j18i3hp31.jpg)

[https://i.imgur.com/DSW0lvH.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/DSW0lvH.jpg)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14d68Wgwevs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14d68Wgwevs)

[https://en.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/](https://en.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/)

~~~
pjc50
That looks like a cleaning nightmare waiting to happen.

~~~
knd775
If I need to clean a mouse that I've been using for less than a few years, I
am going to reevaluate my personal hygiene. After that, it's going in the
trash.

------
dfabulich
How would you apply a Vickrey auction to SaaS subscription pricing?

The article gives an example for keyboards, where ten keyboards are for sale,
and the top-ten customers pay the 11th price. But how would I apply this
technique to software subscriptions, where I'd be happy to sell any number of
them to willing buyers?

~~~
tomerico
If you'd like to estimate your demand curve, you could run experiments where
your landing page shows different price points to different users.

~~~
dfabulich
But I'd love to know how much each individual customer is actually willing to
pay!

~~~
underwater
Sounds like enterprise pricing with the stereotypical "contact us for pricing"
text?

Also, having product tiers allows you to segment the market, which is another
method to have people land closer to their maximum comfortable price.

------
sova
Really fantastic write-up and, "why the hell not get a flushed out demand
curve?" duh! Brilliant!

We sell an online digital product that is subscription based. Do you think
such a mechanism makes sense there, too?

~~~
kragen
It might be harder to convince your subscribers that your servers can only
support 10 subscribers. They might band together to buy an account for a proxy
server.

Maybe if you're selling something inherently limited, like sponsorship banner
space, or indulgences in inter-user conflicts (“we guarantee to ban any non-
core-supporter who reports your account as abusive”).

~~~
sova
It's a language learning curriculum in our case, so individual progress is
tied to the subscription, making it undesirable to share (but possible s'pose)

~~~
kragen
Could you auction off private tutoring time? Or being first in line to pick
the other website user you get to practice language with.

~~~
sova
That's a great idea, like 50 hours of one-on-one tutoring available this
month, and get private bids for that! Thanks! Let's keep brainstorming ^_^

------
chinhodado
A technical question, how was the Vickrey auction done to ensure that you
can't just enter a bogus high price?

~~~
rhinoceraptor
At my company we're doing something similar. Since the scale is a bit higher
(several hundred items available) we're doing credit card holds to ensure
buyers aren't doing this. If anyone backs out, it makes it a logistical
nightmare to work out the new winners.

Of course, it also makes it a bit tricky if you want to edit your bid, since
card holds can't be modified after the fact (except for hotels/restaurants).

It looks like in this case, the scale was small enough and the buyers/seller
have enough trust not to make bogus bids.

------
PeterStuer
Why do exclusive wines fetch several hundred a bottle when in double blind
tasting tests oenologists fail to differentiate them from 6€ supermarket wine?

Why does the same Malaysia made shirt go up in price 50x if it gets a top
brand label attached a opposed to a cheap generic brand one?

~~~
dubcanada
Why does the same Malaysia made shirt go up in price 50x if it gets a top
brand label attached a opposed to a cheap generic brand one?

This one seems like a stretch. Top brands have a level of quality that is much
different than a random Walmart brand. When you get to the differences between
a $100 shirt and a $1000 shirt is when you stop finding a large difference.
But there is usually a vast difference between a $5 shirt and a $50 one. QA of
the shirt, material, quality of the sewing, quality of the printing, type of
ink, things like shirt hangers, environment friendly material, fit, type of
pattern, etc.

~~~
TrackerFF
I'd say that when you're buying a $1000 t-shirt, there are around 3 different
options:

1) High-fashion brand item. This is usually a middle-of-the-road item with
steep designer markup. Gucci, Tom Ford, etc.

2) Collector item. It could be a $5 shirt which has suddenly become very
expensive due to collection-value. Supreme, etc.

3) Hand-made small scale luxury brand item, using rare materials (Vicuña
blends, extremely fine wools, etc.). They still have a markup, but more
justified than those in 1). Loro Piana, Stefano Ricci, etc.

------
ekingr
The Matt Levine-style "People are worried about custom keyboard market
liquidity" made me laugh aloud!

[https://www.bloomberg.com/topics/money-
stuff](https://www.bloomberg.com/topics/money-stuff)

------
eddieh
This doesn't surprise me at all. Guitars are sold for thousands of dollars.
I've been making the argument for years that someone should create a bespoke
keyboard business. I don't want to start that business though, I want to be a
customer. I spend all day working on a computer, why shouldn't I be as
comfortable and efficient as possible with a custom designed and
professionally built keyboard?

In my scenario the possible keyboards go well beyond picking mechanical
switches and caps. Because I'm in the minority that actually likes the low
travel and stable feel of the MacBook Pro keyboards, but the layout sucks and
they don't make a standalone version. Essentially I want a modern keyboard
with Meta, Super, Hyper in additional to Control, Option, and Command. And I
want the keys moved too. I don't care if nobody else in the world would want
this keyboard—the only thing that matters is that I want it. And I'd pay
$1,000 - $3,000, maybe more for it.

------
sebastianconcpt
Technique to discover the market price:

 _A Vickrey auction is a type of sealed-bid auction. Bidders submit written
bids without knowing the bid of the other people in the auction. The highest
bidder wins but the price paid is the second-highest bid. This type of auction
is strategically similar to an English auction and gives bidders an incentive
to bid their true value. The auction was first described academically by
Columbia University professor William Vickrey in 1961 though it had been used
by stamp collectors since 1893. In 1797 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe sold a
manuscript using a sealed-bid, second-price auction._

------
pmarreck
Today I learned about the Vickrey Auction (and related auction strategies such
as
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey%E2%80%93Clarke%E2%80%9...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey%E2%80%93Clarke%E2%80%93Groves_auction)
and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_second-
price_aucti...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_second-
price_auction) (which is used by Google AdWords!)

------
Tepix
I've followed the Keyboard.io Model 01 crowdfunding campaign (they have the
best writeups!) with a lot of interest. I'd probably buy two of their
keyboards if they'd offer a German keyboard layout. They are $329 each. For
that price, I expect a perfect product.

A keyboard that looks equally tempting (but involves a lot of soldering and
other work) is the Dactyl keyboard ([https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-
keyboard](https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard) ).

~~~
random3
Keyboard.io is one of the nicest pre-built ones.

You can fully customize the layout of the Keyboard.io and get blank keycaps
[https://community.keyboard.io/t/whats-the-latest-info-on-
key...](https://community.keyboard.io/t/whats-the-latest-info-on-keycap-
sets/2445/26)

You can get a barely used one for ~250 just watch their forums.

I've got one 1-2 months ago after playing with a Kinesis. The keyboard is
really nice. The firmware and software ecosystem around it is powerful but
still lacks usability (you write plugins in C although they have a really nice
graphical interface to configure it).
[https://github.com/keyboardio/Kaleidoscope](https://github.com/keyboardio/Kaleidoscope)

------
dwoozle
The keyboard community isn’t weird at all. People love getting deep into a
hobby because people like to feel like they have expertise and depth. When
they get deep into a hobby, their level of commitment seems insane to a person
on the outside. I can’t fathom why someone would spend $1000 on sneakers or
$1000 on a keyboard or $1000 on a golf club or $1000 at the strip club. But
everyone has their hobbies.

------
gre
The hand model is putting the "P" key on the "O" switch.

------
Dude2029
You always end up buying more than one, despite their extreme durability.

~~~
C1sc0cat
Its the Bike Number Rule:

The correct number of bikes to own is n+1 .While the minimum number of bikes
one should own is three, the correct number is n+1 , where n is the number of
bikes currently owned.

~~~
papreclip
I was just thinking this fad reminds me of the fixie fad from a few years
back.

~~~
C1sc0cat
At least you don't have to wear lycra to use them - unless you want to :-)

------
reaperducer
I wish there was a niche that involved making replacement keycaps for Macs
that brought back the Apple logos on the Command keys.

~~~
_jal
The cease & desist letter would hit the advertiser's inbox before the first
order.

------
mamurphy
Why was the title shortened on HN to remove reference to mechanical keyboards?
I think the subject matter is both relevant and helped generate interest in
the thread. Also, most of the comments are about mechanical keyboards at this
point.

------
octorian
I still remember thinking that having a Das Keyboard was a splurge. But in
this world, it might as well be a Logitech that no one talks about.

(That being said, I've only used Das Keyboards at home and work for the past
6-7 years or so... I'm not really sure what I'd actually gain by seeking out
one of these more "boutique" mechanical keyboard brands, and there's so many
I'm not even sure where I'd begin anyways.)

Its also a shame that none of this nonsense actually helps any of us when
we're using a laptop away from a desk setup.

~~~
rhinoceraptor
You aren't really getting anything, at least past the $300 mark.

The functional advantages of higher end boards are dye sub/double shot key
caps, programmable firmware, better switches, better cases, and alternate
layouts (Ergodox, Ortholinear boards, etc.).

------
DoreenMichele
_Given these benefits, why aren’t such auctions more common in artisan
manufacturing niches?_

I had never heard of Vickrey auction. Knowing how to make some high quality
artisan product in no way guarantees one also business savvy. In fact, it
probably reduces the odds you know such.

 _The first two sound like “people are dumb amateurs who don’t like money”_

Being a "dumb" amateur is sufficient. No need to act like lack of savvy means
you _don 't like money._

------
overthemoon
What, really, are the benefits? I used a friend's mechanical keyboard and it
felt nice. Is that it? Is it necessary to spend 100s to get a good one? The
whole thing seems insane to me. No judgement, I spend money on other stuff, it
just doesn't make sense to me personally.

I typed this on a mac keyboard people seem to hate, so maybe it's Stockholm
syndrome.

~~~
TulliusCicero
You can definitely get decent mechanical keyboards for less than a hundred
bucks, though they'll cost more than 'regular' keyboards.

This is the one I currently use: [https://www.amazon.com/HyperX-Alloy-FPS-Pro-
Ultra-Compact/dp...](https://www.amazon.com/HyperX-Alloy-FPS-Pro-Ultra-
Compact/dp/B074F5L8GQ/)

I bought it after I found out that my previous TKL mechanical keyboard didn't
work for the new Starcraft hotkey layout I was learning. One or more function
keys was not remappable in software.

------
alyandon
For those that would like to try a mechanical keyboard without necessarily
investing $$$$$ in one, I'm quite happy with my ~$60USD 104 key Tecware
Phantom with Outemu brown switches.

Much better than any membrane based keyboard I've used in the past and not so
expensive that if you end up not liking it you feel like you have wasted a ton
of cash.

------
rmbryan
I suspect a set of shill bidders may be at work here.

Is there a way to guard against the seller inflating prices by bidding?

~~~
gnomewascool
I think that for a Vickrey auction, the worst that a malicious seller could
do, by injecting "false" bids, is (assuming the number of items sold is _n_ ),
raise the price from the value of the _n+1_ th bid to just under the value of
the _n_ th bid. (Otherwise they'd end up with unsold stock.)

~~~
detaro
Unsold stock could still be more profitable if the bids fall right, although
could of course be noticed depending on the product and audience.

At the core, at least everyone winning is always going to spend less than they
bid.

------
rjmunro
It seems tricky to do this more than once per product.

What happens if you've sold the first batch and it went so well you make a
second batch? Do you refund the first batch buyers with the difference in
price between using the profit from the second batch?

~~~
wmf
If something is advertised as a limited edition then more shouldn't be made.
Other than that...

That's the same the kind of self-defeating thinking that leads to artificially
low prices in the first place. Everything has to be judged based on the
information available at the time (e.g. there might not be any more batches),
not in hindsight. People are willing to pay to be first in line, so let them
pay.

------
m3kw9
It is not used often because most times people want things to be
deterministic. If I press buy, I own it, not I may or may not get it and have
to wait to see with a fear that it may constantly lose out.

------
daniel-cussen
If you look at it as a writing utensil (makes you faster or better at writing)
and as an office status image (like a fancy pen) it makes a lot of sense. Pens
go for thousands.

------
leksak
Not related to the content but kudos on the site styling. Haven't opened it on
anything that is not a mobile device (yet) but it was very pleasant to read.

~~~
d7gibo
Agreed - I'd like to use the theme if it's available.

~~~
lynaghk
Author here --- you're welcome to copy whatever you want from the unminifed
CSS:
[https://kevinlynagh.com/stylesheets/style.css](https://kevinlynagh.com/stylesheets/style.css)

------
epx
How much a Model M, or better yet, a Model F, cost in today's dollars?

~~~
cyanov
Unicomp manufactures Model Ms and sell the 104 keys for ~$108 (inc tax+ship).
Haven't checked the Model F in awhile, but they're still rare and expensive.

------
purplezooey
At least it's metal. It looked plastic at first.

------
xer0x
Keycult is so good!!

------
edisonjoao
this is real

------
void445be54d48a
Wasteful.

~~~
ogre_magi
How so? The money spent on the keyboards isn't destroyed. It goes to the
manufacturer who presumably spends it on housing and food and medicine and
stuff.

What's being wasted?

------
omarhaneef
I hate to nitpick but I assume you want to know:

"I cannot understate the benefits of knowing the demand curve."

I think you mean

"I cannot _overstate_ the benefits of knowing the demand curve."

Because you seem to imply that it is a good thing to know the demand curve.

~~~
0wis
Why, on a seller standpoint, would it be a bad thing to know the demand curve
? For me it is actionnable marketing data, I cannot see a way in which it’s
not good.

Even if you not use it directly, it is still data on your customer base that
can help you understand them more...

~~~
minitech
> Why, on a seller standpoint, would it be a bad thing to know the demand
> curve ?

Dunno, but it only makes sense to use “understate” if you think it is a bad
thing. The comment is about a wording mistake.

------
Altheasy
There will be always stupid person who would waste 1668$ on this bullshit.

~~~
C1sc0cat
And there will be the unlucky (stupid) person that ends up with RSI at 35

~~~
anonuser123456
There is no evidence for a causal relationship between keyboard usage and RSI.

~~~
Filligree
It's more common among computer users, isn't it? Though that alone isn't
enough to define a cure.

~~~
anonuser123456
It's not even correlated with keyboard usage, so no not more common.

------
in_hindsight
Wow, so the author basically suggested to use the auction to sell the keyboard
at $1668 instead of $500 because it’s not market clearing price? That’s
borderline evil

~~~
guidoism
If this was medicine, or tampons, or something people really needed, then yes.
But extremely high-end mechanical keyboards? Not really evil. It's a Veblen
good.

~~~
pessimizer
Agreed. Milking conspicuous consumers for as much as you can is good for the
economy in general because it gets people with a lot of parked money to spend
more.

