
Ask HN: Founding a startup in New York City? - sipefree
Myself and my cofounders are currently based in Dublin, Ireland, and we're in early stages at the moment.<p>Our potential early investors and supporters are mostly based in New York City, and we're being asked if we would relocate there in order to continue on.<p>Now, this sounds utterly amazing to me, and myself and the team would love to head out there and give it a go, but I've got a few questions for my fellow hackers.<p>What's it like running a startup in NY? I've seen a few scattered posts that it's more cut-throat than SF, and that there isn't as much help and camaraderie available between startups. Is this true?<p>What kind of prices would we be looking at to get a small but decent office to start off in? The same goes for apartments. What websites are the best to find good rented property? In Ireland we have daft.ie, but there are a bunch of other shitty ones here and it's not obvious which is the best, so I assume the same is probably true in every other city.<p>Has anyone had any experience founding a startup as an immigrant? We'll be offered support in getting visas and such, but I'd like to hear any anecdotes about the process.<p>The interbutt is a big place, and there are lots of articles. It would be amazing if anyone who's seen any good posts about this could send a link along.<p>Cheers folks.
======
frankdenbow
There are many resources for you, especially as the community continues to
grow. I haven't experienced much of the cut-throat attitude at all. In fact I
have gotten a tremendous amount fo support and advice from many in the
community here over the past year.

I'd suggest starting off in a co-working space since you can share resources
and get help, instead of siloing yourself in a separate office.

Some resources to check out include:

Working Spaces

General Assembly - <http://generalassemb.ly>

New Work City - <http://nwc.co>

We Work Labs - <http://weworklabs.com>

DogPatch Labs - <http://dogpatchlabs.com>

LooseCubes (search for a place) - <http://loosecubes.com>

Email Events Lists

Startup Digest - <http://startupdigest.com>

This Week In NYC Innovation - <http://bit.ly/nycinnovation>

Other

Ohours - <http://ohours.org>

Meetup - <http://meetup.com>

NyHacker - <http://nyhacker.org>

Startup Weekend - <http://startupweekend.org>

Lean Startup Machine - <http://theleanstartupmachine.com>

------
i2pi
I founded BankSimple in NY. I'm an Australian immigrant, and my co-founder is
Indian. We pay less than $2k/mo for rent for an awesome office in Brooklyn, we
had 10 people in the office over summer. Most of my team lives in Brooklyn,
where things are much more affordable, but you are still likely to be paying
over $1600/mo for a small apartment.

I've never lived in SF, but as I understand it, it is not much cheaper.

There is a great community of tech startups, but they tend to be around the
Union Square area in Manhattan. I spend a bunch of time meeting up with folks
around Union Square, but its only a 15min train ride in from Dumbo in
Brooklyn. Meetup is based here and there are a ton of tech and startup
meetups. You wont find yourself lacking for social support as you build up
your business.

I love NY. There is a fantastic culture of getting shit done. The city is cut
throat, but that is inspiring. Everyone is on a mission. And its not all about
technology. You meet inspired folks from all walks of life. Talented
designers, musicians, financiers, advertisers, chefs and architects.

I'm going to miss NY. My company is heading to Portland, but I hope to bring
the best of NY to Portland.

------
arun057
On the contrary to what you ve heard, there is a huge startup network in NYC.
You ll have the support you seek when you need it. Everything else is just
expensive.

Most of the questions you asked have been answered already. So I ll give you
some pointers about the housing question.

1\. Craigslist. - <http://newyork.craigslist.org/> 2\. Padmapper -
<http://www.padmapper.com> \- maps all the apartments on craigslist. 3\.
<http://www.nybits.com> \- for apartment listings from building managers.

The average "decent" studio apartment in Manhattan will cost you anything from
$1000 - $3000. It might be a little lesser if you get a bigger place and
share. Living costs are very high, but the fact that you could go shopping for
groceries across the street at 3am makes up for it.

~~~
mdda
Here's a starting point : <$2000 downtown Manhattan. You'll get much more if
you're willing to extend to Brooklyn/Queens, or spend a little more (or go for
a share).

[http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rentals/downtown-
manhattan/rental_...](http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rentals/downtown-
manhattan/rental_type:frbo,brokernofee%7Cprice:-2000)

------
SeanOC
There's lots of good advice in this thread already but I would add a pitch to
take a look at Brooklyn. While not cheap, it's generally way less expensive
than manhattan and there's an awesome mixed community of people from all kinds
of different backgrounds.

As far as office space, there are are couple of co-working spaces mentioned
already, but there's also a great place called GreenDesk [1]. GreenDesk lets
you rent anything from a single desk to an office for 6-7 people, it's
relatively inexpensive, it's month to month so you're not locked into a lease,
and it's in a pretty nice neighborhood with good subway connections.

Finally as far as culture, I'd say the NY tech scene is a more fractured than
SF (there's a lot of finance folks here who usually don't interact much with
the startup world) but within the startup space it's very active and friendly.
One of the best things you can do to get involved and to get to know people is
go to various meetup groups [2]. There are groups for virtually every
neighborhood, specialization, and technology.

Good luck with the move and hopefully see you around NYC soon!

[1] <http://greendesk.com/index.html> [2]
[http://www.meetup.com/find/?userFreeform=10001&radius=5&...](http://www.meetup.com/find/?userFreeform=10001&radius=5&radiusSet=true&show=results&sort=default&keywords=tech&mcName=New+York%2C+New+York%2C+USA&userFreeform=10001&mcId=z10001&lat=&lon=&gcResults=&op=search&sort=default&events=&show=results)

------
krschultz
I'm not sure of the prices in Dublin, but this I found that the cost of living
in NYC is a bit over exagerated compared to other places in the NYC metro
area.

I live about 2.5 hours from NYC and I pay $1400 a month for rent. I also pay
$120 for car insurance, $20-50 a month on average for car maitenance, and
around $300 a month on gas. Excluding car payments (I have a relatively old
car that I have paid off). So my total cost of renting + a car is around
$1850. I absolutely can get an apartment in Manhattan for that price that I
would like, I've been in several. Obviously in Manhattan, I wouldn't own a car
so thats why the comparison holds.

(I assume that utilities, TV, internet are basically constant no matter where
you live).

Food is the big X factor. I can't quite figure out what the cost difference
is. When I worked in Manhattan I ate out for lunch and it was generally around
$10, sometimes more and sometimes less. My lunch now is around $7. Should I
extrapolate that across my food budget? That makes me think it is going to be
an extra $200 a month. I really don't know.

I think the cost of living gets so skewed because people try and compare price
for a square foot. Right now I live in a 3 bedroom condo with a garage, a
dining room, a laundry room, 2.5 baths, etc. I pay $1400 for that. But if I
moved into NYC I'd have a 1 bedroom or a 2 bedroom and a roommate. Obviously
if I wanted the same interior space I'd pay an enormous amount. But I don't
need all that room. I don't even use it all now. So you have to compare
lifestyle not the physical dimensions. In my current house, my family room is
enormous and has a fireplace (that I never use). Do I need to be 15 feet from
my TV? Of course not. It probably would look better if it I was closer. If you
put me in the typical NYC family room, my couch will be 3' from the TV. I've
lost a lot of space, but functionally the room is exactly the same. I still
get the same enjoyment out of the place and the same utility.

A lot of people walk into a tiny NYC apartment and say, this is so SMALL! How
do you even live here! But frankly, it just doesn't matter.

~~~
hugh3
_A lot of people walk into a tiny NYC apartment and say, this is so SMALL! How
do you even live here! But frankly, it just doesn't matter._

Right now I live in 634 square feet in the Bay Area -- not a tiny apartment by
any means, but the smallest place I've lived for a long time. It has a view,
which makes it feel more spacious, but I still find that the small size makes
it slightly depressing after a while. I miss the idea of going for a walk
around my house, or of going to sit in a completely different part of the
house.

That's not to say that it's terrible, just that size _does_ matter. My next
place definitely needs to be bigger.

~~~
mdda
Maybe one thing is the sense of property in NYC. Outside the city, I
completely understand the idea of walking around 'your property'. In NYC,
outside the door, is 'your city'. Manhattan is built for walking, no 'true
native' owns a car here.

~~~
hugh3
Walking around the streets isn't quite the same thing as walking around your
own place, though.

------
elliottcarlson
Everyone mentions the prices in NYC and Brooklyn, but living in the often
forgotten borough Staten Island I pay $800 for a 1 bedroom apartment right at
the water, with a Manhattan bound bus minutes away. I have the luxury of
privacy since I don't need a roommate, and things are a lot more quiet and
peaceful here and for me personally, I enjoy coming home to that after
spending 12 hours coding away in the city - I have unwinding time on the bus
and then just relax without all the city noise.

I found this apartment via craigslist.org - I think that will be the easiest
route to go without dealing with an overpriced realtor.

~~~
ecocentrik
That might be because the Brookfield Landfill on Staten Island was an illegal
toxic dumping ground for 20 years and is still being cleaned up.
[http://earthjustice.org/our_work/cases/2008/brookfield-
landf...](http://earthjustice.org/our_work/cases/2008/brookfield-landfill-
cleaning-up-a-toxic-dump)

~~~
elliottcarlson
Since this is being brought up, and since even most New Yorkers don't know
this (and therefore Staten Island is the brunt of many jokes) -

The Fresh Kills Landfill, which consists of 2,900 acres and includes the
Richmond Avenue Truckfill, the Brookfield Landfill, the Isle of Meadows and
parts of the William T. Davis Wildlife Refuge. This was a city planned land
reclamation and waste management engineering project which would convert swamp
and creek ground to habitable ground in the future. The landfill itself had
daily covering over all new garbage dumped, and when it was closed, a 2 foot
final cover was put on top of it.

The Fresh Kills Landfill project lasted 55 years in total from the start to
the final dump; however that did not include all portions of the Landfill
project. The Brookfield Landfill specifically (since that is what I am
commenting on) was open from 1966 to 1980, and in it's 14 years of operation,
there was unfortunately a scandal where there was illegal dumping of toxic
waste at these grounds - at one point a sanitation supervisor was convicted
for taking bribes for looking the other way. The Brookfield Landfill covers
132 acres of the 2,900 acres that was the Fresh Kills Landfill.

Since closing they have monitored all the landfill from this project for
safety, and environmental impact and are currently transforming the grounds to
the largest park in the 5 boroughs - even bigger than central park. In the 9
years I have lived on Staten Island, I have had no complaints about smells,
etc. The landfill itself (as far as the portion bordered by Richmond Ave,
Arthur Kill and LaTourette) is grassy and there is plenty of wildlife living
there. Ecologically speaking, it is thriving.

It is unfortunate that there was illegal dumping - but the ground was not an
illegal toxic dumping ground for 20 years. I am more concerned about illegal
dumping of toxic waste in water ways.

As for it still being cleaned up; as I mentioned, the Fresh Kills Landfill is
currently in a 30 year project to convert it in to the largest park in the 5
boroughs - and remediation of the Brookfield Landfill started last year, it
was the last of the landfill grounds in the project to commence remediation.
The ground is safe, and the only reason the residents that lived next to the
Brookfield Landfill property line were sueing was to force remediation of the
property so that it wouldn't just be overgrown land, and could also be turned
in to a recreational area for the community.

Please don't just spew out things about the Landfill unless you actually know
the background and what is being done. I didn't grow up on Staten Island, and
I don't care about the jokes, so I have really no care in the world what
people say - I just want informed discussions taking place.

Some sources of information for numbers and stuff I wanted to confirm while
responding:

[http://earthjustice.org/news/press/2010/staten-island-
reside...](http://earthjustice.org/news/press/2010/staten-island-residents-
rejoice-over-clean-up-beginning-at-brookfield-landfill)

<http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/fkl/about_fkl.pdf>

[http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/city_to_discuss...](http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/city_to_discuss_future_of_toxi.html)

------
gyardley
Right now we have a two-person office at WeWork on 34th. $1,000 per month,
month-to-month lease, decent facilities (conference rooms, phones, printers,
etc.) About what you'd pay renting desks at another company, less than you'd
pay for shared space at an incubator. I'd start with a short-term office
rental like we've got, or possibly a sublet. Commercial leases in Manhattan
are a pain in the ass.

Manhattan is expensive; the further you go from Manhattan, the lower the rent.
I live in Hoboken, right across the river in New Jersey. New Jersey carries a
moderate stigma (snotty Manhattanites won't travel there) so you end up
getting more for your rent. I wouldn't overlook it if you're trying to save
money, as long as you're walking distance to a PATH station. (The PATH train
runs 24 hours, just like the NYC subway, except it's slightly cheaper and
cleaner.) I used to live on 138th St. in Manhattan, and now I have the same
amount of space in a nicer neighborhood for less money - and my commute to the
relevant parts of Manhattan is both shorter and more pleasant.

The tech community's there if you want it, but it's not omnipresent like it is
in San Francisco. If you put in an effort to meet people you'll be fine. I
wouldn't describe it as 'more cut-throat' at all. People are both nice and
social.

Recruiting is brutal. Then again, I hear recruiting in San Francisco is also
brutal.

Health insurance is a pain. If you've got real funding, a professional
employer organization (PEO) like Ambrose is the way to go - they take care of
payroll and health insurance. If not, talk to a broker and get something with
a high-deductible - you're getting it in case of catastrophe, not for every
sniffle. Don't go without.

I'm an immigrant, but I had my permanent residency sorted long before I
started starting companies, so I can't help much there. I can tell you that as
a Canadian, I found U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services inefficient and
irritating to deal with, but not malevolent. They'd probably have a similar
attitude towards you - Ireland's a first-world country. Just be completely
honest and make sure your paperwork is perfect.

If you do relocate, send me an email, and we'll get lunch.

~~~
ktrgardiner
As someone who also lives in Hoboken, I second the suggestion of living here.
It's beautiful, safe, and fun. A good amount of the population is young and
everything is within walking distance. And you're just a 10 minute PATH ride
to the city. Its definitely something to look into.

~~~
njstartups
Second the suggestion. Hoboken's got fantastic access into the city, they have
their own tech meetup too (NJ Tech) and there's a new shared workspace that's
opened up there too: <http://www.missionfifty.com/>

------
rrival
Office space with walls is limited but there's lots of coworking space - check
out loosecubes.com to search it. Private reserved desks are ~$500/mo.

Apartments: nybits.com / streeteasy.com / nakedapartments.com. Look for no fee
apartments. Brokers here take 15% of your annual rent as a commission and
renters generally have to pay that. They'll also want to make sure you make
40x your rent. For example, $2500/mo apartment (~650sq ft in Manhattan) ==
prove you make $100k/yr with 2 years of tax returns, financial statements. If
they could take a blood sample I think they probably would.

For camaraderie, go to events at GeneralAssemb.ly, check out meetups, check
out Hackers & Founders.

~~~
gchucky
Just to add onto this, you could also set up shop in the outer boroughs. There
are quite a few good startups and design shops out in Brooklyn that are doing
good work. Additionally, rent is generally cheaper and apartments are somewhat
more accessible in Brooklyn and Queens than it is in Manhattan. I'd take a
look in Greenpoint or other places along the west coast of Brooklyn. There's
also a pretty strong Irish expat community in Woodside and Sunnyside in Queens
along the 7 line, if that matters.

------
SandersAK
I came back to the US after living in Paris, France and have had nothing but
amazing support from the NY tech community.

I work out of General Assembly, and have found the network to be really
supportive. In general, I think the community is smaller than in SF (from what
I'm told) but seems actually pretty tight knit. People are willing to help you
get to where you need to go, to be sure.

The fact that things like Kickstarter and Skillshare were founded in NY attest
at least some to the idea of community based collaboration and support.

Definitely couldn't have asked for a better start for our project Good Karma
than in NY.

Offices in Manhattan are expensive - i'd look at shared workspaces that others
have mentioned. Actually, everything in Manhattan is expensive. Brooklyn is a
lot more affordable, though increasingly hot spots like Williamsburg,
Greenpoint etc., are becoming just as expensive.

You should DEFINITELY check out the Startup Visa project that's being backed
by big names like Brad Feld, Dave Mcclure etc. if you're looking at visa
issues.

NY is fun. There's no other place in the world where people are passionately
putting everything on the line to realize their dreams, failing, and trying to
do it all over again the next day. It's energy incarnate.

------
sak84
If you're speaking with investors, and are good about networking with funded
startups chances are you can get office space for free for several months.

Regarding rent, you'll be paying a lot, and finding an apartment in NYC is a
grueling process. But, there's a reason rent is high -- people love NYC!

~~~
michaelochurch
Finding an apartment in New York is not that difficult a process. It's just
expensive.

------
anamax
> We'll be offered support in getting visas and such, but I'd like to hear any
> anecdotes about the process.

Does "support" mean "Hi, I'm the lawyer who will make this all work, like I've
done dozens of time this year, so most of your contact will be with my
assistant, and my fees and the expenses are already taken care of." If not,
you've got a lot of work to do.

WRT moving to NY (or anywhere for that matter).

(1) Why and by how much will moving improve your chances of success?

(2) How much will it cost in time and money to move?

Is (2) less than (1)?

Seriously - the absolute best case is that you spend a week moving. The more
reasonable best case is that you spend a month (preparing to move and dealing
with the move after you're there will also take time). The likely case is that
you'll lose 2-3 months and you could lose more.

------
opendomain
New York is one of the most expensive place to live and work. This is not just
the cost of housing, but also food, travel, and hiring. NYC is more cut-throat
than SF - you know the old song "If you can make it here, you can make it
anywhere." This is a problem with so many people working so hard that it is
almost an uncaring attitude for your fellow man. However, NYC is where the
money is and a good surrogate to Silicon Valley. New York is a very active
city, and has the best mix of culture, food, and experience that you will find
anywhere in the world. There is good infrastructure to live outside the city
(but you will pay in time for commuting). If you do decide on NYC, I will
gladly help - look me up on my profile

------
SoftwarePatent
I'm Irish-American doing a (pre-funded) startup in Brooklyn. Living in
Manhattan would be an extravagant expense for someone doing a startup. If you
want to be around other Irish people, there's a great community in Sunnyside,
Queens.

On Monday there's a YC meet up here in NYC where PG is going to deliver
comments on NYC as a startup community. I'm looking forward to what he has to
say, he criticized New York in the past as a startup hub, but since YC is
having a 500 person meet up here I'd expect his feelings have changed.

------
ryanb
It's true that apartments are expensive in NY, but they're also similarly
expensive in San Francisco, and parts of Silicon Valley (Palo Alto).

There's a lot of affordable co-working spaces in NYC if you want some sort
office to start, but the most ideal space might be your apartment anyway.

You can also choose to live a little further out of the way if you're trying
to save money - like in Queens, Brooklyn, or Jersey City. Depending on
proximity to the subway etc, it can be just a 15 minute commute to Manhattan
from any of these areas.

~~~
ksowocki
+1. I'd look into a coworking space. There are plenty of other web startups
looking for space too.

Email me if you want any help finding a spot. kevin [at] ignighter [dawt] com

------
llambda
I just came back from a visit to Dogpatch Labs[1], where several start ups are
sharing office space. It was quite a cool space, I have to say. I'm not sure
if there are others like this in NYC (I imagine this isn't the only one) but
check it out.

[1] <http://dogpatchlabs.com/about/>

------
CodeCube
<http://nyhacker.org/> ... there's plenty of camaraderie in the city. You can
easily meet up with a different organized group almost every night and not run
out. And a +1 for <http://nwc.co> as well

------
apaprocki
For workspace and a chance to network, check out some of the co-working spaces
available in NYC:

<http://nwc.co/> <http://hiveat55.com/>

You'll be able to find local people to talk to at the NY tech meetup:

<http://nytm.org/>

For finding real estate, rentals, rooms/sublets, Craigslist is still probably
the best bet (unless you're up for Airbnb):

<http://newyork.craigslist.org/>

It is generally cheaper to find a place to live right outside the city in
Brooklyn/Queens that is close to the subways and/or bridges (if you want to
bike).

Hope that is somewhat helpful, others can comment more on startups / immigrant
issues.

------
endtime
I can't compare to SV, but I wouldn't say there's a lack of camaraderie among
NYC startups.

Apartments - check out <http://padmapper.com> for data. Chances are you'll be
spending between $800 (in places like Astoria) up to $2400 (in nicer buildings
in central Manhattan) per person, depending on your living arrangements.

Office: I think desks are usually around $1000/month, though you might find
some cheaper. How many are you? I can check in with my CEO and see if we have
any vacancies (we have a whole floor, most of which we sublet, at 36th and
6th). I do agree with the advice to get into a General Assembly/DogPatch/etc.
if you can, though.

------
benofsky
I just did the Leaving Cert in Dublin in June and I'm currently interning at
Hunch. You'll hear a lot of people going on about just how expensive New York
is, but, honestly compared to Dublin, it's cheaper or the same price for
pretty much everything. New York is exceptionally expensive in comparison to
the rest of the US, but, in comparison to Dublin, it really isn't at all.

As for camaraderie, the tech scene here feels very friendly and there're
plenty of people helping each other out (I don't really have anything to
compare it to though). Get in touch if you have any questions.

------
md1515
I've heard NYC startups are more interested in making money/generating revenue
while SV startups are more disruptive.

I imagine the public transport will be better in any case....good luck

Another tip - combine your office and apartment unless you need a brick and
mortar place for sales. Just because you have funding doesn't mean you need to
spend it.

------
epc
+1 to the previous posts. Only additional link I'd add is for the NextNY list
- <http://groups.google.com/group/nextnydigital> .

------
mjshampine
You should try getting in touch with @meetforeal and @amonter5. They both came
over from Ireland with a similar story and now work with us in WeWork Labs.

------
oacgnol
On the flipside, what's it like to move to NYC to be one of the first
employees for a startup? Anyone have any experience doing that?

~~~
gyardley
I did this in 2005 and I've been in the area since. When I moved, I rushed my
apartment search and got something suboptimal - fine space, just a poor
location.

A lot of places are shown by brokers who want a month or so worth of rent from
the tenant - this is a ripoff, but it's common. If you can afford this or if
you can get your startup to cover this, you've got more options than if you're
just looking at no-fee listings.

Assuming you're a reasonably-competent developer, you don't have to worry
about being out of work should it not work out at your startup - lots of
companies are recruiting aggressively. So that, at least, you don't have to
immediately worry about. (Future economic conditions may vary.)

Just make sure you're paid enough to live how you want to live in NYC, and
that NYC itself is for you, and you'll be fine.

------
lclaude01
I lived in New York City, Sunnyvale (Silicon Valley) and San Francisco.

In California, you spend +- $800/month on car stuff... and your small apart.
will eat another $1000/month...

In New York, no car is needed and you can found a shared space for a very good
price...the keyword in NYC is "shared". shared apt. , shared
workspace...shared girlfriend.

The most important is the people of New York City (including Brooklyn). They
are amazing! It will take you a good two years to be accepted as a "local",
but when you are "in", they will become your extended family... this is
priceless... you won't get this in California.

I always compared New York City as a nasty girlfriend, you want to leave her
because she is nasty to you, but you stick with her because the sex is so
good.

------
michaelochurch
I would say: do it. Then again, I'm already in New York.

Manhattan is more expensive than Silicon Valley but the "greater metropolitan
area" is not as bad as the Bay Area. In California, even far-out suburbs are
expensive. In comparison, you can live 45 minutes from New York pretty
cheaply.

