
Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video] - mhb
http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/article/316418/8/10-News-Investigators-discover-short-yellow-lights
======
kunai
This is unsafe for pedestrians.

The yellow light means "Clear the intersection," not "Slow down." The purpose
is to give time to people crossing the sidewalks to finish walking over to the
other side. Shortening them is a safety hazard for pedestrians like me who
don't own a vehicle.

I don't live in Florida, but this is shameful and disgusting.

~~~
abduhl
This is absolutely incorrect. Traffic lights are for vehicles. Pedestrians
should be obeying the pedestrian signals and your cue to "clear the
intersection" is the blinking red hand. Traffic lights do not switch to yellow
until after the pedestrian signals are solid red hands.

This obviously only applies where pedestrian signage exists.

~~~
kunai
Obviously, you and I live in different areas. Where I live, the traffic lights
turn yellow even when the yellow light has not become solid.

Then, there's also the issue that many pedestrians are still in the process of
crossing when the hand turns red.

~~~
Avenger42
> the traffic lights turn yellow even when the yellow light has not become
> solid

I'm sorry, but this sentence doesn't make sense to me. Did you mean:

> the traffic lights turn yellow even when the "do-not-cross" signal is still
> flashing

If not, could you explain? If so, where do you live that the lights do this?
I've never seen that behavior (although I'm the first to say I haven't lived
many places).

------
joshuamerrill
There's an inherent conflict of interest when cities, counties, and states
rely on traffic tickets as a source of revenue. The all-too-tempting incentive
is to maximize that revenue, either by abusing civil rights or, in this case,
by endangering public safety.

~~~
doki_pen
It won't necessarily endanger the public if they add more delay between one
light turning red and the other turning green.

~~~
flogic
If people stop harder, they're more likely to get in an accident doing so. If
you don't have ABS, stopping harder increases the odds that you'll skid. Also
you're more likely to get rear ended if the person behind you isn't paying
attention.

------
georgemcbay
I work close to a fairly rare "no right on red" (in California right on red is
legal unless signs prohibit it) intersection.

Without fail, near the end of the month there will be a cop car sitting under
the bridge overlooking the turn for hours just waiting for someone to make the
turn. Shamelessly sitting there, in the dark and under a bridge, blocking half
the rightmost lane of a busy street, causing a far greater safety concern than
would be caused by anyone taking a normal right-on-red at that corner.

~~~
thrownaway2424
So you sympathize with people who can't be bothered to observe posted traffic
regulations?

~~~
georgemcbay
No, I don't really sympathize with people who get caught there very much nor
did I say I did. But I sympathize far less with the cop who is doing way more
to endanger my safety than the other drivers are, all in the name of scoring
some easy stops to meet an obvious quota.

For visual reference, this is the intersection:

[http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=32.917322,-117.2356...](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=32.917322,-117.235688&spn=0.566608,1.056747&sll=32.934589,-117.235794&sspn=0.002213,0.004128&t=m&z=11&layer=c&cbll=32.917322,-117.235688&panoid=vBKCzKxH9ESD51CHaW-
KyA&cbp=12,55.15,,0,-7.69)

The people getting popped for right hand turns are the ones to the left in
this image. The cop sits under that bridge in the shadow area without any
lights on, taking up over half of the rightmost (leftmost from this view)
lane. The difference in brightness between daylight and under that short
overpass bridge is very high.

------
roboneal
An appropriate partial quote of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged:

“Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want
them to be broken."

<snipped>

"But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or
objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then
you cash in on guilt."

~~~
thrownaway2424
After you turn 14 you'll realize there is actually never an appropriate moment
for an Ayn Rand quote.

~~~
chm
I have never read Ayn Rand, but I have heard of her before.

Why are such quotes inappropriate?

~~~
ubernostrum
There are several problems with Ayn Rand.

One is that her ideas were not particularly original, and not particularly
well-expressed. Self-centered philosophies are far from new, and actually are
pretty well-trod ground, but her work does little to address already-existing
critiques and, as literature, is not particularly good (her characters tend to
be one-dimensional, plots lack good development/tension/resolution, etc.).

Another is that she has become a frankly cult-like figure, with people
approaching her work the wrong way around: rather than "this statement is
correct, and Ayn Rand said it", too often there is a seeming attitude of "this
statement is correct because Ayn Rand said it". The Objectivist movement
(people who follow her work and philosophy) is particularly infamous for this,
having an established history of venerating her and doing some rather extreme
turns when she was alive and particular people from her circle fell out of her
favor.

Finally, most of her work is easy to critique with only very basic
reasoning/argumentative skills, despite presenting itself as a solid,
rationally-justified framework. More realistically, Rand's philosophy consists
of appeals to emotional responses, based on the idea of self-evaluation of
one's own greatness and the notion that this greatness exists more or less in
a vacuum (one of the famous examples is "going Galt", wherein all of the great
people who produce value simply retreat and form their own separate society,
to spite the "parasites" who "leeched" off their work).

To continue with the fiction theme, one of Heinlein's stories ("The Roads Must
Roll", 1940) anticipated and harshly criticized the type of philosophy Rand
ended up promoting. One of the asides there is to a philosophy of
"Functionalism"; the founder of the philosophy advocates evaluating people --
and giving them power and prestige -- based on what "function" they can
perform, and how valuable it is to society.

The result is large numbers of people who do not really make any unusually-
significant contributions, but who all come to the conclusion that whatever
_they_ do is the one truly indispensable thing, and if they stopped doing it
the whole society would fall apart, so they should be given more power or
prestige over others in recognition. As Heinlein puts it, "With so many
different functions actually indispensible, such self-persuasion was easy."
Heinlein also offers a description of the founder of "Functionalism" which
critiques the philosophy and in many ways critiques Rand's later work as well,
when he says:

 _The complete interdependence of modern economic life seems to have escaped
him entirely._

(see Wikipedia for a summary of the story, or look it up -- it's been
republished/anthologized: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roads_Must_Roll>)

~~~
chm
Many thanks for providing sources and context. I'll ad this to my Amazon Wish
List.

------
aresant
This is a terrible abuse that pisses me off.

But it still struck me as funny how many of us HN's (self included) jumped to
the defense of Weebly for "optimizing revenue" in the "When a Startup Sends a
Passive-Aggressive Email Every Day " story that was trending earlier today (1)

If Florida's red-light system was my start-up I'd be pretty damned pleased
with myself for figuring out how to drive more revenue with "no cost".

(1) <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5704860>

~~~
jlgreco
Slight difference, of many: Spams aren't causing traffic accidents.

~~~
rhizome
Neither are yellow lights. Cross streets don't turn green until the yellow is
gone.

~~~
jlgreco
Yellow lights don't cause more traffic accidents... _shorter_ yellow lights
do. How do you think that _"Cross streets don't turn green until the yellow is
gone"_ indicates that should not be the case?

~~~
rhizome
Regardless, the cities are still "growth hacking."

~~~
jlgreco
You are not being coherent.

------
jluxenberg
Predictable consequence of red light cameras. Most of the revenue (over 50% in
Kissimmee, FL [1]) goes to the vendor!

[1] <http://www.kissimmee.org/index.aspx?page=636>

------
aasarava
Was anyone else pleasantly surprised to find that this is a well-researched,
plainly-told article -- the kind you rarely expect from local news? This
should be an example on how to investigate and report impactful news.

------
sehugg
I think short yellows are dangerous, especially with loaded vehicles. US DOT
should set standards for minimum yellow light times. Here is one such
proposal: <http://www.shortyellowlights.com/standards/>

EDIT: Linked to proposed standard and equation

~~~
Anechoic
_US DOT should set standards for minimum yellow light times._

They do, through the MUTCD:
<http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/faqs/faq_part4.htm#q32>

~~~
sehugg
I meant actual times, the MUTCD only says you must use "engineering practices"
in determining the interval. The ITE equation was included in my link --
however it optimizes for _reduced_ red-light violations, so it's no wonder
it's not used in these cases.

------
will_brown
The actual video from these camera should not be admitted as they violate the
rules of evidence. Out of 1,000 cases this attorney from the Ticket Clinic
claims to have won all 1,000 on this argument alone. I have yet to take one to
court, but I imagine I will, as an FL attorney not a violator.

[http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/learn-secret-how-you-
can...](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/learn-secret-how-you-can-fight-
red-light-camera-ti/nTm8d/)

------
mindstab
So below the federal recommendation and worse, not uniformly but more often on
lights with cameras leading to non standard light behaviour. Because we really
want unpredictable behaviour from our traffic system... that can only lead to
safer roads... like variable length steps on a stair case.

These people should be charged with public endangerment.

edit: Also as someone pointed out, less warning to pedestrians to clear the
cross walk and less time to do so. Very safety conscious.

~~~
scarmig
It might be surprising, actually: having significant uncertainty can be much
safer than (false) certainty.

There was a town that took down all stop signs and traffic lights, and it
significantly decreased traffic accidents and injuries.

------
itg
I can't wait for self-driving cars to become commonplace. Wonder how much of a
hit these departments that rely so much on red light camera and speeding
tickets will take.

~~~
danpat
It's not only that. A good buddy of mine is a criminal defence lawyer. He says
that a goodly portion of his drug-related cases begin with traffic stops. By
goodly portion, I mean 50+%.

We've talked about it at length. There would be major changes in law
enforcement practices if automated cars obviated trivial traffic law
enforcement stops.

~~~
talmand
Nah, they'll just start pulling cars over to check the firmware on your car to
make sure it's up to date.

------
rhizome
Very common: <http://www.shortyellowlights.com/>

------
mos2
I know this has been done in Sacramento for years. Yellow Lights at large
higher speed (40mph) intersections (like Fair Oaks and Howe) have the yellow
light set at the CalTrans minimum safe approach speed, which is often 25 mph.
This is on a double lane left turn with traffic at or above the posted speed
limit.

Good luck fighting that ticket, well within the California State law.

Too bad they don't have to set the yellow light timing consistantly. That
probally wouldn't give you the 2x increase in citations.

------
MrSourz
I find the news article rather sensationalist, because the reductions on the
yellow light timing are now based off the limit rather than the greater of the
limit or average speed. While this does increase the number of ticketed
incidents it

It seems reasonable to ticket those who would be impacted by this, for if the
forumla is correct it should just impact speeders.

I agree with the sentiment shared by others that the all stop time should stay
the same to protect drivers from the speeders.

------
adnam
If you extract too much honey from the hive, the colony might not survive the
winter.

------
doki_pen
I wonder how it would be if we eliminated yellow lights altogether and instead
had a countdown on the green light. At the very least it might save gas, as
you could see that the green light ahead will turn red long before you could
hope to hit the intersection, so you could coast in. Of course, you'd need to
have an adequate "all-red" time for it to not be dangerous.

~~~
gtz57
You can kind of do this by looking at the clock on the pedestrian sign. I
would think it would help more with traffic flow than saving on gas.

------
scragg
I despise these traffic cameras. They are popping up everywhere in the DFW
area. So many people I know get rolling right on red tickets... it's absolute
BS. It has nothing to do with safety and everything about money. There are so
many instances where you can check if it's safe to make a right without having
to make your wheels completely stop. I can't imagine many accidents being
caused by a vehicle moving <2mph while making sure they were clear as opposed
to coming to a complete stop. These photo enforced lights make me nervous as
all hell, as I approach, first sign of yellow and I find myself slamming on
the brakes.

[https://plus.google.com/115905827925711420560/posts/LauLtrvS...](https://plus.google.com/115905827925711420560/posts/LauLtrvS6mb)

Example of a right turned that ended in a photo enforced ticket.

Edit: fixed the link.

------
troebr
The same thing happened in New Jersey, but the state took the matters in hand,
and effectively suspended the cameras last summer
([http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/is_your_local_red_l...](http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/is_your_local_red_light_camera.html)).
I was flashed in Newark, after a very short yellow light on a 55mph road where
normally yellow lights are long enough so that you do not have to dangerously
slam the brakes. According to another article I read, it is supposed to be 4
seconds for 40mph roads. I was flashed after what looked like at most 2
seconds of yellow light.

I never received anything, and I found out about the yellow light abuses.

------
ianstallings
Surprise surprise, the King wants to squeeze thew peasantry again with another
tax.

------
vlasev
I am a canadian and I've driven in cities like Vancouver and Calgary. The
yellow lights in Calgary hold so much longer (maybe even double the time?). I
found it much more comfortable to drive there than in Vancouver.

That said, I've been thinking for quite some time now that it might be best to
just add a count-down number on the lights to show you how many seconds are
left until the green light turns yellow. If you are going to beat the light,
might as well speed up a bit from afar than by a lot near the intersection.

------
Strilanc
This is a perfect example of mismatched incentives.

When a deterrent is working, you get very few violations. Rewarding the
detection of violations is incentivizing exactly the wrong thing. You're
rewarding for making things worse!

I don't know what incentives would work, in the case of red light cameras.

\- Accuracy on unmarked test cars going through the intersection? (testing is
expensive)

\- Clamping the income from fines below some threshold? (the threshold might
be manipulated)

\- Rewarding low accident rates relative to other intersections? (probably too
unstable)

~~~
scarmig
All fines from traffic incidents go into a separate piggy bank that's refunded
equally to taxpayers at the end of the year and can't be drawn on for
departmental or government funds.

How we get from here to there, I don't know.

------
ender89
The problem with red light cameras is that they encourage blind obedience to
rigid traffic laws, and not driving safely as dictated by the road conditions.
There are plenty of legal situations where a driver might "run" a red without
having done anything "illegal" or dangerous, such as getting caught in the
middle of an intersection. I'm in favor of ripping them all down, as their
only real function is to suck money out of the taxpayers pockets.

------
t0mas88
If you think this is a way to collect money, try driving in the Netherlands.
Our normal speedlimit is 130 km/h, but we have limits of 100 km/h on wide and
empty 5 lane highways in the middle of nowhere enforced by average-
speedcameras (so 100% chance of getting caught even if speeding by as little
as 2 mph)

Oh and the fine of 10 mph (16km/h) over the limit is 174 USD... but really,
this is about safety, not about the money :X

~~~
greg5green
$174 USD isn't unreasonable for a 10mph over ticket in the states. I'd expect
that plus court fees here.

------
jimktrains2
Aren't Yellow Light times determined by engineering and it becomes a public
safety issue if they are shortened?

------
sehugg
Also: 6 Cities That Were Caught Shortening Yellow Light Times For Profit
(2008) [http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-
shorteni...](http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-
yellow-light-times-for-profit/)

------
walid
I keep hearing this a lot but if I was "embroiled" in all of this, I would sue
the state for entrapment.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment>

Excerpt:

Two competing tests exist for determining whether entrapment has taken place,
known as the "subjective" and "objective" tests. The "subjective" test looks
at the defendant's state of mind; entrapment can be claimed if the defendant
had no "predisposition" to commit the crime. The "objective" test looks
instead at the government's conduct; entrapment occurs when the actions of
government officers would have caused a normally law-abiding person to commit
a crime.

------
quackerhacker
I'd really love to see how a Google street car (those autonomous vehicles)
would handle a yellow...in my book, yellow still means speed up lol.

------
harold
I haven't timed it yet, but I'm pretty sure this is happening in my town here
on the central calif. coast.

------
Mz
The emperor still has no clothes and the god's are still crazy.

(I mostly walk, thankfully. And don't live in Florida.)

------
bryanlarsen
If they increased the "all-red" time to match, then good for Florida. They've
increased their revenues, their roads are safer, and those who are running
yellows are getting what they deserve. Running yellows is illegal and far too
common.

If they didn't increase the all-red time they are making the roads more
dangerous. People get accustomed to the length of the yellow & all-red time.
But if the total doesn't change, only the relative proportions it shouldn't
have an impact on safety.

~~~
codex
How goes giving someone less time to stop before someone else goes not
decrease safety? Why not shorten the yellow time to zero?

~~~
abduhl
There is a portion of time where all of the lights at the intersection are
red. The person you are responding to notes that as long as this portion of
time is increased such that the total time that the intersection has for
someone to clear it (i.e. - time that the light is yellow plus time that the
lights are all red) stays the same then safety inside the intersection should
not be impacted.

This says nothing about safety leading up to the intersection (e.g. - people
slamming on their brakes).

~~~
codex
You make an excellent point.

I am worried about the case where the driver, distracted, looks away from the
intersection for a second. Returning their gaze to the light, they see it red.
They never observed it yellow, and thus they have no idea how long it has been
red and whether or not it is safe to run the light. Perhaps this is why we
have yellow to begin with--as an redundant means of clocking the time until
the opposing light turns green.

~~~
lttlrck
If they look away long enough to miss the yellow then, some might say, they
deserve what's coming.

~~~
jlgreco
The entire fucking point of this article is that they are dropping the time
yellow is displayed too low.

------
thrownaway2424
For those of you who didn't bother reading the article, which I assume will be
all of you since this topic normally drags up the least-able critical thinkers
on this site, I'll summarize it for you: the Florida DOT lowered yellow
duration to a level appropriate for the speed limit on the road. The duration
might not be long enough for speeding cars to stop. So in addition to being
colossal asshats, people who are speeding might also be getting more tickets
from red light cameras.

And in conclusion, drivers are the most self-entitled scofflaws in the world.

~~~
pasquinelli
hear hear!

