
23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline - coloneltcb
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/23/23andme-lays-off-100-people-ceo-anne-wojcicki-explains-why.html
======
jsgo
> Wojcicki has theories

Think the obvious one is that the results are shared and whether someone is a
criminal or not (or will be one in the future), people are not particularly
comfortable with sharing to parties they didn't initially trust it to for the
purposes they trusted it for.

Anecdotally, I bought a 23andme kit (just the genealogy one) but never
submitted it because the labeling was to send it to the lab in the next town
that manages the company I work for's drug screenings. Well, I don't think I
have any pre-existing conditions and certainly don't do drugs, but I don't
know about any unknowns on the health side that could impact my insurance if
they were to share it to the company. Forget that.

~~~
bobthepanda
Honestly, I would also say that a partial reason why these would've dropped is
that everyone who can do it has done it.

You only need these kinds of results once because your DNA doesn't change. I
knew people who were giving or had gotten these as gifts, but those are one-
off purchases. And if you've heard of people doing it then you'll do it too
but that's also a one-off.

I don't think I'd personally benefit because my family came to the US
relatively recently from a country that has very few records going back very
far, that haven't been destroyed. So what would be the point for me?

~~~
zyang
I did it 6/7 years ago because the novelty, and enthusiastically recommended
it to family and friends. Now I regret doing it considering how Google and
Facebook has abused consumer data. I definitely would not submit my kids to
the same fate.

~~~
ab_testing
If your kids were born in the United States,the states already has their
genetic information. [https://www.babysfirsttest.org/newborn-
screening/states](https://www.babysfirsttest.org/newborn-screening/states)

~~~
thatfrenchguy
I trust the government more than a for profit corp for this.

~~~
jjeaff
Did you know most DMVs are selling your data to private companies?

~~~
collyw
What's a DMV?

~~~
x62Bh7948f
department of motor vehicles

------
ThrowawayH4MCb
Current, unaffected employee here. Throwaway for obvious reasons.

A big chunk of the layoff is the new lab that we built in Phoenix. That only
made economic sense in the scenario where we were selling far more kits than
we succeeded in selling.

The rest of the layoffs have a similar root cause: a massive overestimate of
how much we were going to sell.

I'd blame the shortfall on some combination of growing privacy concerns from
customers, failure to understand the demand elasticity as we cut back on
discounts, maybe some slowing of consumer discretionary spending, and maybe
saturating the market.

~~~
ilamont
Ancestry.com has also stepped up its marketing game. Used to be a follower
with DNA, now a leader, and discounting heavily.

And, unlike 23andMe which got rid of family tree tools used by genealogists,
Ancestry still has a very strong suite of trees and traditional genealogy
tools. Some people really want to have both genetic and traditional genealogy
accounts under the same provider, and are either unaware or don't really care
about the privacy concerns.

~~~
fiftyfifty
One thing I would add is the data for places outside of Europe looks pretty
weak for both Ancestry.com and 23AndMe, at least it was the last time I
looked. If you are from European descent they can practically tell you what
village your ancestors are from (how accurate that is I don't know) but if you
are Asian about the best you get is yep, you're Asian! I married into an Asian
family and the reports I've seen from Asian family members are pretty
disappointing compared to what I've seen from my family members (white,
European descent). I imagine it's similar for some other non-white races too,
that's a big demographic that's being missed.

~~~
RobAtticus
Perhaps its changed since you looked because my fiancee is Latin American and
her results tell her the provinces/areas of her home country where her
extended family is originally from.

------
dragonwriter
> Wojcicki has theories, but she doesn’t have clear proof for why consumers
> are shying away from getting tests

Because the ones that want them have gotten them and there's no reason to ever
buy the product again once you've done it once.

I mean, smartphones are great, but the market for them would have hit a wall
pretty quickly if no one ever had a reason to replace them after buying their
first.

~~~
fetus8
I mean, there's the fact that companies like this also provide your data to
DNA databases that governments and other companies have access too. That seems
like a good reason to shy away from getting their tests done.

~~~
hi41
I sent a saliva swab and got my dna analyzed by 23andme. I got back
information I already knew such as where I came from etc.

Serious question. IF the government catches a relative of mine who is a rapist
or a murderer from my dna, I don’t see anything wrong with it. Could someone
please explain what could go wrong. Keeping our community from heinous
criminals is a good thing isn’t?

~~~
rainyMammoth
ah, here we go. The notoriously flawed "I'm doing nothing wrong and I have
nothing to hide" argument.

There are so many reasons why this is wrong and it is a pretty well known
philosophical stance. A couple reasons:

\- You assume that the government is acting for your best interest. What would
happen if we elect a crazy president that changes the direction of the
country? (Think WW2 Germany with their eugenics). \- You are not doing
anything wrong but don't you have information that you want to keep private?
Getting an STD for example is not illegal but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't
like that medical information available after a search with your name on
Google.

~~~
maxioatic
I'm curious what you mean by philosophical stance. Could you expand a little?

~~~
rainyMammoth
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument)

------
blackrock
That’s what happens when bad press about your company comes out, and you’re
too clueless to recognize it.

Why do I really care about other people with similar genetics to me?

This seems to be a greater risk for me, if I put myself into that database.

And if someone else has a similar genetic as mine, and they commit a crime,
then I’m automatically roped in as well. Do I really want the police knocking
down my door, and slamming me to the ground, while they barge into my house
with assault rifles and ballistic protection gear, and pointing their guns at
every member of my family. This is a case of mistaken identity. But their m.o.
is to shoot first, and ask questions later. No thanks!

This is the Law of Unintended Consequences at play here.

And for all the talk about cross linking your genome with others to find
markers to get clues on how to cure diseases, well, I never really bought into
that.

It may help, but I really don’t care. The disease problem will need to be
solved in another way, that doesn’t involve the compromise of my security,
however remote it may be.

~~~
a254613e
And if someone kills every memeber of your family, and they leave DNA behind,
but police are not allowed to use DNA databases which WOULD find the person
that commited the crime and they don't have a match otherwise (since we're
already making assumptions that something will definitely happen)?

I mean this goes both ways. One thing I don't understand about this whole hate
for DNA databases and matching relative's DNA on HN is... why?

Why does something that can help police catch criminals is such a bad thing?
Because there are false positives? But those exist in pretty much all other
investigation techniques. Cell phone positions, being seen on a surveillance
camera few blocks away, having a similar car and being in the area, etc. Why
is DNA so much worse?

In fact wouldn't adding more variables, such as DNA, to the existing
techniques reduce the number of false positives as in "Oh yeah it's the same
car, but there's 0% DNA similarity so no need to investigate further"?

Police "barging into your house with assault rifles and ballistic protection
gear, and pointing guns at all members of your family" seems extremely
overkill for a, let's say, 10% DNA match. And if they do really do that, then
it's a problem with a police that needs to be addressed - not the DNA
databases.

~~~
solatic
> why?

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Better to prevent the
emergence of corrupt and unjust institutions, than to try to reform or
dismantle them after they have been formed. Institutions have inertia - once
they reach a certain size and state, any change is difficult.

------
killjoywashere
The real risk in my mind is that this opens market space for Beijing-backed
companies like Novogene in Sacramento. They will occupy that space and every
adjacent space as fast as they can. They'll sequence your tumor genetics, or
your germline to get a better read on you're kid's inherited disease. And
you'll never know it because your doctor contracted with them, they signed a
BAA (so it's all legal, right). And then Novogene will take that BAA to the
bathroom, piss on it, and send your genome to China for cross-referencing in
Face++ and see if you have any Uigher in you.

Everyone will eventually get some amount of sequencing done, probably multiple
times throughout their lives. The vastly more important question in my mind is
who's going to do it, and what are their incentives?

With cost-conscious medical professionals, you can bet it will be the lowest
bidder, and the lowest bidder will _not_ have your best interests in mind.

~~~
hyperbovine
This wild, unfounded fantasy completely misses the point: genetic privacy is
fundamentally unlike other types of private information. It is trivially easy
for someone to collect your genetic information if they really want to,
completely legally and without your consent. They could, for example, obtain
bits of the multitude of genetic material you spread around your environment
simply by existing -- chewing gum, hair, cigarette butts, poop. Or, just look
at a few close relatives of yours who overshared everything on some online
database. And these are just the obvious ways.

~~~
throwaway2048
having access to a vast, identified DB of DNA is a lot different than hiring
someone to follow millions and millions of people to capture their DNA.

~~~
novaRom
As someone said in a comment above, blood samples of all people born in CA
(and probably in many other locations) are stored centrally, so there is a
non-zero chance their DNA info is leaking to foreign databases. I highly
recommend to watch "yt! How to Survive the 21st Century Davos 2020". Harari
makes very important statements related to this discussion.

------
prepend
I did this almost 8 years ago for the health insights and recommended it to a
few dozen friends and family because the UI was nice, they added new reports,
and they were the only low cost provider at the time that let me export my
data. I loved the service and found an unknown sibling through the site.

The FDA made them remove health insights so that made the service less useful.

But two years ago they started selling data to pharmaceuticals. They claim it
is opt in, but I have a hard time believing them. And they prompt me to opt in
about once a month. I no longer recommend.

~~~
wutbrodo
> The FDA made them remove health insights so that made the service less
> useful.

I believe there are third-party sites that will still give you this
information if you upload your raw data. Though of course, this has the
downside of giving yet another party access to your data.

~~~
ryanmercer
The 3rd party sites I've used don't ask for any identifying information though
(unless you want to pay for paid features), it wouldn't surprise me if there
were simply downloaded freeware that you could use to do it offline on a
virtual machine if you even wanted.

A quick Google query leads me to this

>I recently wrote a small tool, Snappy, that can help you browse and interpret
your raw data. Written in JavaScript, all processing is done on your browser,
without transmitting sensitive data to any server. That also enables the tool
to be used offline

[https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/6troyj/wrote_a_new...](https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/6troyj/wrote_a_new_tool_that_helps_you_browse_your_data/)

So it does appear there are some sort of offline solutions for further
exploring your raw data.

~~~
wutbrodo
Cool, thanks!

------
marcell
They sold 10M kits, and they primarily market in the US. DNA never changes, so
you have a lifetime max of 1 purchase of 23andMe per lifetime. Their
competitors have likely sold 15-30M as well, so maybe 30-40M of these kits
have been sold. That's 10% of US market.

What's the max conceivable penetration here? 20%?

~~~
rfc
Your germ line genome rarely changes. Your exome changes all the time. Your
gut biome changes all the time. There's massive market opportunity but a ton
of regulations around how to tap into that market opportunity.

On a separate note, Ancestry is going through a similar issue. They've had
double digit revenue declines in their DNA testing suite. The truth around
23andMe and Ancestry is that they're really doing a super shallow sequencing
and, I believe, are doing only genotyping. It's not super interesting in the
long run because it's such a static dataset. Getting to exomic or
metabolic/gut biome sequencing provides much more interesting insights into
the human body.

~~~
inetknght
> _Your exome changes all the time._

I work in DNA analysis (not for 23andme). Citation needed.

> _Your gut biome changes all the time._

Your gut biome isn't being tested by a genetics company collecting your saliva
or epithelial cells.

~~~
calf
How complete are theses tests? If I wait another 10, 15 years to get
sequenced, would I get more accurate, reliable information? Can advances in
sequencing technology make it worth people to get resampled? Or is it just an
issue of better analysis?

~~~
jghn
The technology itself is constantly improving, for instance the push towards
long read technologies. Beyond the underlying sequencing, the computational
pipelines run on the output from the sequencers is also constantly improving.
A huge issue at the moment is in that space, as key portions of the alignment
and calling pieces of those pipelines are not optimized for a global
population.

------
stiray
Has anyone read their "research consent"?

[https://www.23andme.com/en-int/about/consent/](https://www.23andme.com/en-
int/about/consent/)

"If your data are associated with your identity, they may be made public or
released to insurance companies, which could have a negative effect on your
ability to obtain insurance coverage."

This is about data breach but within, they acknowlidge the potential usability
of those data for insurance bussiness. I wonder who would buy them if they go
down...

~~~
shostack
Is there any way to prevent them from using it for that purpose or to
determine if my insurance company has access and is using it?

~~~
stiray
If you are in EU you can send them GDPR request, for who are they sharing with
and request for deletion. For states, i doubt you have any choice.

------
mterrel
I just wonder what happens to everyone's DNA data as the company faces
financial trouble and/or sells itself. That's in addition to any concerns
about possible security breaches that might occur.

~~~
Paul-ish
This is an important question. Ancestry, for example, has been taking on debt
to pay dividends at the behest of its majority shareholder.

~~~
shostack
Source?

------
dmix
Maybe the industry as a whole should stop handing stuff over to law
enforcement and governments.

I was going to buy it for 2 different people for christmas but both declined
over privacy concerns as they read in the news they are being used in sweeping
investigations. Given the number of wrongful accusations that litter history
and the general trend away from any regard for privacy among security agencies
this is a very legitimate concern, even for regular folks like my parents.

~~~
skissane
> Maybe the industry as a whole should stop handing stuff over to law
> enforcement and governments.

They can try saying "No", then the government will just get a court order to
force them to do it. They don't really have a choice in the end – the only
choice they have is whether they make it easy for the government ("you want
our data? here have it!") or slightly harder ("I'll need to see a warrant
first..." "No problem, we are going to the magistrate right now to get
one...")

~~~
mplewis
Companies could stop retaining data that governments would be interested in.
I'd love to get my genome sequenced, but I never want that data to be retained
by anyone but me.

~~~
outworlder
Until they get ordered to retain that data.

~~~
chopin
But they aren't now. The only reason for keeping data is for their own
benefit.

------
joshfraser
I did it and then regretted it. Possible outcomes:

You risk getting linked to a crime because your DNA was found at the scene of
the crime. You might even be innocent, but just having your DNA in a database
increases your risk of a false conviction. Worse, you put your relatives at
risk too, regardless of whether they are guilty or not.

Maybe you unknowingly got someone pregnant and now owe child support.
Depending on your situation, you may not welcome this discovery.

Best case, you find out that you have a genetic disease that you can't do much
about.

------
brownbat
This was way more appealing to me when they were able to provide (probably
spurious) medical predictions, and before it was clear that the ancient
ancestry assessments were so much guesswork.

The cost of sequencing keeps rapidly halving, but the price of kits isn't
really dropping, so over time it seems like less and less of a good value.

They're clearly spending on social features and development, which is
understandable, but it'd be interesting to see an alternate universe firm just
dedicated to making sequencing as accessible a commodity as possible--send in
butterflies or dog hair or sushi and we'll send you a genome.

Might create interesting opportunities for amateur biology, similar to how
popular amateur astronomy has become with home telescopes and ability to
search Hubble images and such.

------
Mathnerd314
DNA testing still isn't ready for general use, giving conflicting / arbitrary
results: [https://www.healthista.com/dna-genetic-test-review-three-
dif...](https://www.healthista.com/dna-genetic-test-review-three-different-
diet-fitness-results/)

I'm guessing it's the trough of disillusionment in the hype cycle, and DNA
testing will suddenly get really popular in a few years.

~~~
itake
or they miss-estimated their market size and growth. I don't think most people
care about DNA testing.

~~~
mgbmtl
or it's already covered by healthcare when a doctor suspects it's necessary
(for genetic predispositions).

~~~
epistasis
And there's basically zero overlap between 23andMe's test method and the
clinically useful tests that a doctor would order.

For example, carrier screening, to see if you and your partner both carry
recessive variants that may result in a rare genetic disease in some of your
children: impossible with 23andMe's setup, but useful to a huge number of
couples, and already common practice for some ethnic groups.

------
whynotkeithberg
I kinda wanted to get one but the privacy concerns and having my data
sold/added to a government database scares me.

~~~
awb
Almost any other sensitive data (passwords, bank accounts, etc.) can be
changed with enough effort, but your genetics can't.

Even if you think 23&Me is operating ethically today or that you trust the
laws protecting your privacy once your genetic data is leaked there's nothing
you can do about it.

------
JacobAldridge
I happily share my income and net worth figures online, post here and
everywhere using my real name, and I’m even doing a podcast now sharing all
the gory details of going through fertility treatment from the male
perspective.

There’s no way in the world I would allow a company, or any other person or
entity, to voluntarily have my DNA.

~~~
pas
If it could be bought somewhere with only a big QR code one it and prepaid
stamped envelope, I might buy it abroad, spit into it, seal it, send it and
check results over Tor later.

~~~
rantwasp
you can buy it on Amazon or I also saw the kits at Target - pay with cash if
extra paranoid. use a vpn, don't give your real name or real address. it's
some work but it's doable if you want to.

------
LatteLazy
Probably a good thing. Since they started cooperating with law enforcement,
it's basically a giant exercise is entrapment with a little psudo science to
help sell it...

~~~
smt88
Do you have any examples of this?

From what I've read, they've found criminals using relatives' DNA test data,
but that wasn't the evidence used to convict.

------
alister
> _The company raised ample venture capital -- $786 million, according to
> Crunchbase_

If I might go on a tangent, isn't that an insane amount of money for the VCs
to hand out? Apple with a $1 trillion market capitalization (the most valuable
company on Earth until Saudi Aramco beat the record a month ago) began with
$1M in inflation-adjusted venture funding in 1977.

Is there any way that $786M makes sense or is there just too much VC money
sloshing around?

~~~
busymom0
Could it be that there are a lot more VCs, especially in tech field now a days
than in 1977?

------
titzer
“This has been slow and painful for us,”

I'm gonna give you some slack here, Anne, but TBH Silicon Valley executives
don't really understand what these words mean.

“I think the tech world needs to own this[sic] better communicate privacy
standards to build trust,” she said. “I want to jump in and really own it.”

Or maybe instead of jumping in with your billionaire executive pants on, Anne,
you could _listen_. People are sick of being told what's _being done to them_.
You didn't miscommunicate, you screwed up. People are pissed off.

------
natch
>Wojcicki has theories

I have a theory for her. It's too expensive. It was really cheap when I got it
(on deep discount) but there are discounts, and then there are discounts. The
discounts in the last few years have been very weak.

For the past few years I would have bought it for as many as five family
members if only it had gone back to the price I got it for.

And now that the privacy concerns have understandably scared everyone, maybe
privacy has overtaken that theory. But the prices are still too high for the
value offered.

~~~
thrower123
I saw one of the kits on sale in Rite-Aid the other day, and I looked at it,
and it was only like $35 dollars. That's down in the "sure, what the hell,
maybe it'd be interesting" range. Then I looked closer, and realized that in
the fine print that was just for the testing kit. When you send it in and get
it processed, there was an additional $99-150ish lab processing fee, depending
on what you picked, to actually get the results back. A little rich for my
blood at that price.

------
joshspankit
I know this has been essentially stated already, but: DUH.

The moment they let _anyone_ have access to that information, they soured the
market.

The “least morally questionable” risk is accidentally handing distant cousins
over to police, and most people aren’t even comfortable with _that_.

------
throwaway5752
Everyone paying attention the pattern of layoffs? Ebay, Mozilla, DigitalOcean,
23andMe, Intel...

Pay down your credit card debt and make sure you have at least 6 months of
expenses in the bank, if you're young and haven't been through this before.

~~~
jimbob45
Is the intuition on credit card debt just that unemployment can jeopardize
your ability to make payments?

~~~
codezero
payments, and ability to even get a job if your score takes a hit... a lot of
companies do credit checks before hiring :/

~~~
Keverw
Yep, depends on the state though. Can also affect your insurance rates too
such as car insurance, not sure if other types of insurance use it as an
indicator but wouldn't surprise me.

------
dgzl
I was very close to buying this a few years ago and I decided against it. Then
later it was revealed that these companies give away and sell your data... How
surprising. Now I'm too creeped out to care.

------
peter303
A siblings results was enough for me. We share the same ancestry. There were
no surprises in their result.

------
yellow_lead
My company has some workplace goals, that if you complete them, you can have
some extra time off. Usually they involve taking care of your body and
participation is tracked by the honor system.

A recent one had a requirement that was a DNA test "to learn about your
heritage." There was an opt out, which I took for privacy reasons. I'm amazed
people are just starting to realize the implications of giving away your DNA
to be collected in a central database.

------
remmargorp64
I regret doing my 23andMe testing. I stopped trusting them when I realized how
easy it would be for bad actors to abuse the system. I wish I could take it
back and have them destroy the records and DNA sample but they literally won't
let people do that (for some completely bullshit "legal" reason that makes no
sense and is clearly a lie).

~~~
dsd
Where I work in the healthcare area, we are trying to expand from the us into
Europe. And interesting legal question is how to honor Europe's right-to-be-
forgotten laws with the US's HIPPA requirement to preserve health care data
for X years. As an employee it also feels awkward.

------
avocado4
23andme testing is one and done. Once you've had it you will never spend a
dime with them. It's a red flag for any investor.

~~~
PunchTornado
their data could be very valuable depending on the evolution of personal
medicine.

~~~
nradov
Their existing data can't really be used for personalized medicine. If they
want to pursue that market they'll need different testing protocols and
additional regulatory approvals.

~~~
PunchTornado
regulatory approval is easy to get with the right kind of lobbying.

i would say assays are useful for personal medicine. they get about 6m
variants.

------
0xcraft
After a woman reached out to me on Facebook last Father's Day I took the
23andme test. Yes I had a new to me baby sister!

She found me after taking the test herself looking for her (our) paternal
linneage. A not too distant common relative did the 23andme too and a little
detective work in online obituaries was all she needed to find me. Strangest
FB message I have gotten to date. I thought she was a cybersecurity recruiter
as I noticed she was looking at my LinkedIn profile a few days prior to
contact.

I used to be more concerned about the privacy implications. Maybe it's my age
or something but I feel at peace with my choice. Besides I realized once one
somewhat close relative is in the database it takes very little to link us all
up.

Was it worth it all things considered? For me it was though without the desire
to confirm our relationship I probably wouldn't have done it.

------
ryeguy_24
I received Ancestry DNA as a gift this year and have no desire to use it.

After reading the terms and conditions, I was amazed by how much they can
share or resell the data. Beyond the privacy issue, I'm also not sure how much
these services can add value to my life. Either knowing or not knowing where
some of my 2^n ancestors (n being generations from me) are potentially (based
on proxy information, not certain) originating from doesn't seem to do much
for me.

Also, knowing health risks also doesn't do a whole lot for me as I already
live a healthy life with the idea that living healthily will add years to my
life. Do I want to know I'm predisposed to some disease in the future? Not
really. Unless there are DNA-tailored pills you can take that reverse any
potential DNA-driven issues coming my way, I'd rather not know.

Does anyone feel differently? Are they getting value from these services?

------
kevinstubbs
Very curious that this came just a couple weeks after they announced licensing
their first drug compound (using data from the test kits?) to the Spanish firm
Almirall [0,1].

Anybody have any ideas about this? Why would they slow down the "growth and
scaling efforts" (as the cnbc article claims) even despite lower-than expected
sales, when the data from kits is what gives them the unique(?) capability to
discover novel drug compounds at a massively reduced cost compared to
traditional pharma companies.

[0]
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-09/23andme-l...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-09/23andme-
licenses-drug-compound-to-spanish-drugmaker-almirall)

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22004326](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22004326)

~~~
ThrowawayH4MCb
Bringing drugs to market requires a lot of money. And the whole process takes
a long time (order of a decade).

Subsidizing the tests or doing more marketing would sell more tests, but
wouldn't speed up drug development. And doing so would burn up money that
could be used for drug development.

And even though the licensing deal is promising, there has been no drug
brought to market yet based on 23andMe's data. So it's a hard sell to
investors.

------
hbosch
I didn’t buy a test, because my brother did. Why pay $100 to get the same
story twice?

~~~
neivin
I didn't buy the test because all it would say would be "Congrats! You are
100% asian."

I feel like 23&me is literally only useful/interesting to white people because
they can see which one of the 50 European countries they have ties to.

It's not that useful for me. I've had friends do it and get 99.97% Chinese or
Indian.

Amazing, I could have told you that for free.

~~~
some-guy
As a 3rd generation white person in the US, what specific European ancestry I
have is meaningless to me.

I find the health tests to be more interesting than the ancestry, though it
was a bit scary though having to click through all the warnings to get to the
results.

~~~
jamesrcole
> _what specific [ancestry] I have is meaningless to me._

it's ultimately probably not important, but I would think that it's at least
something to be curious about.

------
rglover
Surprised they haven't expanded the offering to include regular blood panels
and "doctor's recommendations" (subscription revenue). Hell, you could even do
a "improve your bloodline" service that plainly explains how doing a, b, and c
will help with that and set you on a life plan w/ decade-level health targets.

I'd have to imagine a well-packaged, boutique option for getting that done
would be huge (and they'd have most of the infrastructure and relationships to
do it). If it was affordable I'd buy it.

------
jellicle
I was interested in DNA analysis until I realized that doing so meant giving
my info to law enforcement and to all the world's corporations who would use
that info against my interests, and it couldn't be undone.

I would probably still be interested if there were a company that promised
never to share ANYTHING with anybody and to destroy every trace of my info and
sample within 90 days. But that company isn't 23andme, for sure.

------
Gatsky
I’m surprised that 23andMe have not released any new products since they
started. They still offer the same SNP chip based test fundamentally. The
interpretation of results has if anything become less interesting due to
regulation.

It may be that there aren’t any new products that are either useful or that
people want. But still, it highlights the type of company they want to be, a
kind of genomics facebook.

------
Aissen
Are there any similar tests but focused on privacy ? No online database entry,
just your plain raw data. Use your own software or local statical models to
look for pre-conditions, etc. No looking for family members, unless I want to
upload my data to some website, and then be able to have it removed at any
time.

------
thrownaway954
It kills me to think that they don't realize that their business is a fad and
like all fads they fizzle out. couple with the fact that i'm almost certain
they will share their information with anyone who is willing to pay them for
it and you've got yourself a sinking ship.

------
code4tee
This DNA testing stuff intrigues me but there’s too much shady stuff going on
with the data afterwards for me to want to give it a go. A lot of this
“consumer grade” DNA testing may go down in history as a great product foiled
by doing shortsighted dumb stuff with people’s data.

------
blackswan101
Lots of layoffs happening recently: 23andme, stubhub, tripadvisor etc. Early
indicators of a tech bubble?

~~~
jacquesm
No, just crap companies that you don't _really_ need. Companies that have
products with actual users rather than novelty items or pure convenience will
be around for a long long time because they are profitable.

------
blisterpeanuts
The ultimate solution to privacy concerns is home sequencing machines. When we
can sequence our own DNA, we can upload it anonymously and get many of the
benefits. The one thing that wouldn't work is finding lost relatives by name.
Maybe general location, though.

------
lm28469
> DNA test sales decline

Well, there are only so many people interested in the product (ie. not creeped
by it), and they're only going to use it once... 2010s will be remember as the
"wonky startup" decade, between this, theranos, uber &co.

------
Trias11
Stop monetizing me without compensating me.

Stop [ab]using me without my concent.

Be forthcoming and willing to establish win-win relationship with me instead
of sneaking out my stuff and monetizing my stuff without disclosing what are
you doing with my stuff and without compensating me.

~~~
rainyMammoth
In this case you paid (199$!) for the privilege of having your data monetized.

------
natch
The genetic predisposition stuff has been underwhelming. I'm going to just
make up an example, so keep in mind that I openly told you this is made up.
Basically they put things in alarming terms. For example, after clicking
through some confirmations that you are OK with learning the information, you
might encounter things like: "You have an elevated predisposition to
Snooferitis, with a 50% higher risk than average." And 50% sounds really
scary, the way they put it. Then when you drill into it you see that the
general population has a 0.2% risk of developing Snooferitis, and your risk is
0.3%, so that is, wow, elevated.

ymmv. There are definitely cases where things are more cut and dry (and
possibly very not good) and sometimes the click-through confirmations about
wanting to learn the information are seriously justified. But a lot of the
elevated risk information just feels like fluff.

------
kemyd
Did anyone learn anything meaningful from these tests?

I saw some results, for example, "I'm 3% Syrian, 10% Portugal, 8% Korean ...."
etc., but do they provide more important results like "Sorry, you will have
cancer in 2 years"?

~~~
rantwasp
yes + you can actually download the raw data and analyze it with a couple of
other online tools (e.g.
[https://www.promethease.com](https://www.promethease.com)). It may be worth
it especially if you have a rare disease - but you'll have to be the judge of
that

~~~
throwaway2048
So even more people get your data, horay

------
SQL2219
How DNA Transfer Framed Lukis Anderson for Murder
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16903330](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16903330)

------
highprofittrade
If one of my siblings does a dna ancentrial test why would I need to do it???

------
andy_ppp
Hang on, haven’t they just signed a deal with a drug company worth $$$? You’d
think there would be hundreds of ways to monetise the types of people who have
signed up for their platform...

~~~
ThrowawayH4MCb
There are. The people laid off didn't significantly contribute to that work,
however.

------
yalogin
This is a functionality that no one asked for. Why does one need them? Let me
ask an extreme question, how different is this from me naming a star after
someone for their birthday? I go to some site and print out a certificate that
that particular star in a given galaxy is now named Michael. Point is its a
novelty thing. If a doctor asks me to get it done for a medical reason, sure.
Other wise this is just a curiosity with no use.

Also, one way to look at it is we are paying to make our DNAs sellable to
third parties. These have value for a long long time and the company is going
to make money on that for ever. Sure there will "anonymization" of the DNA or
some other privacy blurb used but we all know it will be sold.

~~~
pivo
> this is just a curiosity with no use

Small sample size, but I was adopted and didn't know my genetic background or
have any family medical history. When I've been ill I hadn't been able to
provide that medical information when the doctors requested it.

Thanks to 23andMe I not only know a lot more about myself, but I also found my
biological parents who are married to each other and wonderful, and who have
two twin sons. So suddenly I have a second set of parents, two full brothers,
and three more nieces and nephews and they're all incredibly welcoming, great
people who I visit often.

So I'm very happy that 23andMe exists.

~~~
yalogin
Sure. Like I said the argument I put forth was an extreme one, intentionally.

------
hyperpallium
Wasn't the cost of sequencing supposed to be decreasing exponentially, so we'd
be able to purchase a home sequencer by now, that doesn't sell your dna.

------
SubiculumCode
Competition + Novelty Factor Decline + Privacy Concerns + Not that much
benefit + DNA doesn't change so no need to test more than once: Hard upper
limit in sales.

------
stjohnswarts
Probably the people who wanted to have it done have done it. Others who are
skeptical or uninterested were never going to do it.

------
auiya
Probably because repeat sales in this market are non-existent? At some point
you hit a plateau in demand.

------
rainyMammoth
I said this here before but 23AndMe is linked to Google in multiple ways.
(Search the CEO name)

You should be out of your mind to _PAY_ to give them your most precious
private data!

I'm very happy to see their sale decline even though I'm quite sure that the
average consumer still doesn't care about privacy.

------
j45
Alternative DNA testing products are also superior (do more tests for less $)

------
resters
why would anyone sign up for a service that will link anyone in their family
to law enforcement DNA tracking databases?

I’m a customer already but now that I know how non-private the identity data
is, I would not do so again.

------
RedComet
Privacy is the reason I've never sent them my spit.

------
aforty
Next step: sell all the DNA results to the highest bidder.

------
uwuhn
This isn't their first round of large layoffs.

------
abootstrapper
Noticing a lot of layoffs recently.

------
ZguideZ
Just the beginning.

------
darwinreally
I've not seen them offering their product in big markets like China or India.
How can they give up before even trying?

------
dekhn
I can't believe they've received three quarters of a billion dollars of
investment.

~~~
redis_mlc
"Anne Wojcicki married Google co-founder Sergey Brin in May 2007."

There ya go.

23andMe was a vanity project for Sergey's wife (now ex-wife.)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Wojcicki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Wojcicki)

Same story for Marissa Mayer.

~~~
dekhn
I know quite well (have met all the people involved), but I still can't
believe how much money has been sunk into them.

~~~
downerending
One of the joys of being rich is being able to spend your money however you
like.

It's a caution to the rest of us, though. My annual salary is just a rounding
error to them, and it's not worth their time to consider my individual fate in
any way.

------
spike021
Interviewed here a year or so ago.

Honestly I'll admit I didn't do well technically, but every interviewer I had
just seemed super impersonal and not very friendly. They asked very
interrogative questions, and while I get it and am mostly ok with it, I felt
like they were asking due to the existing environment they have there.

I just didn't get a great vibe.

Disclaimer: But again, I know I didn't do well on the technical stuff so maybe
I'm biased negatively toward the experience.

~~~
toomuchtodo
This breaks my heart to hear. I interviewed there in 2011 as an infra guy, and
not only was the infra team personable (the winning question was rapidly
identifying the symptoms of a duplex mismatch on a switch ethernet port), the
VP of Engineering was awesome as well. He even went so far as to say, "As a
tech person, you belong out here in the Bay, even if it's not with us". I
turned down the offer, but it was one of the best interview experiences I've
ever had.

~~~
t_serpico
"As a tech person, you belong out here in the Bay, even if it's not with us"
\- What the fuck does that mean? People working in tech not in the bay aren't
second tier.

~~~
theflyinghorse
> People working in tech not in the bay aren't second tier.

Are we though? If we were to establish criteria by which to judge tiers how
would anywhere else in the world compare to the Bay? My intuition is that the
Bay is probably more productive and gets paid far more for it. The bay
certainly drives just about about every tech trend worth a note. Innovation as
well how much tech came out out of that region.

Disclaimer: I would love to move there one day just to be in that world.

~~~
igetspam
30 year bay area veteran here.

There is nothing special about the bay area that isn't geography. The density
of workers means you meet a ton of talentless people who shuffle along with
the crowd and are rewarded for it because it's unnoticed. I'm paid more to be
remote than I was in the bay area and my money goes a lot further. I'm also
exponentially more productive not being in a sardine can office. Your
intuition is shaped by your inexperience of the reality of the situation. The
grass isn't greener in my old backyard than it is in my new pasture but I have
a lot more of it now.

~~~
theflyinghorse
> Your intuition is shaped by your inexperience of the reality of the
> situation

Yes, largely. Though, frankly the grass IS greener on the other side in my
case. I am in the middle of nowhere in Canada and my window into the tech
world at large is github and YC.

> 30 year bay area veteran here

Do you believe you would have the same opportunities today if you did not
spend time in the Bay (didn't get experience, network, insider knowledge)?

~~~
miker64
Not the poster, but also an ex-bay area tech.

The amount to which I was steeped in tech due to being able to do things like
dumpster dive for computer hardware in the 80s definitely affected my career
path, but _that is not a thing anymore_. And you are already interested, so
having a seed of 'what's that?' isn't so necessary.

I've been out of the bay for 5 years, and worked there for almost 20. The
opportunities I had were about a time and place, and _today_ that place is far
more online than physically based.

If you can make it to the bay, it is a wonderful place, full of tech and
culture and people from all over, but it is not the only place with all that.
It's also hella expensive.

I think the Bay's time as _the_ place to be is over, but it's still _a_ place
to be.

Good luck!

