
Tech is the best industry for women - lilychendances
https://medium.com/@lilychendances/tech-is-the-best-industry-for-women-f15a95a84d6f
======
civilian
I think tech represents a good implementation of a meritocracy. You are
welcomed to be weird and yourself, as long as you get your work done. Think
about your coworkers-- you've got some weird ones. Dyed hair? Check. Burlesque
dancing? Check. Gender non-conforming? Check. Goes to Burning Man? Check,
check, self-check. Any of these things could get you fired from teaching
kindergarten.

Let's keep tech inclusive and accepting and weird.

\---

Before switching to software, I was a Research Associate at the Fred Hutch. At
one point my Principal Investigator told me point-blank: "I don't expect to
help you or motivate you, the other Research Associate, or the PostDocs much,
because you all get paid far more than the Grad Students."

Being a manager and giving a bit of excitement and motivation is so easy. It's
free! It's free to have a positive attitude and be excited for your work and
let that be infectious. Yet my boss just decided not to do it. Academia
biology research is so fucked.

~~~
gitlabuser
I don't think that any of these examples show that Bay Area tech is a
meritocracy or inclusive. The truth is the tech community has a culture and
almost all the things you mentioned are almost stereotypical parts of it.
These all fit within the tech culture:

* Going to burning man

* Going to SXSW

* Working with the LGBT community

* Tattoos / Dyed hair

* Pole dancing

* Wearing Stan Smiths

* Being obsessed with high end coffee

You shouldn't be patting yourself on the back that tech accepts these things.
I've seen terrible examples of the community not accepting:

* Those who believe in gun rights

* Those who are strongly religious

* Those who are homeless

* Those who are lower class

* Those who are H-1Bs (Indian outsourcing bias)

* Those who are Republican

* Those who are black

* Those who are old / have grey hair

Being inclusive and meritocratic doesn't mean accepting things that are within
your culture. It means accepting those that are outside. I remember a
colleague talking about a Dropbox all hands meeting where every one was
patting themselves on the backs because the recruiting team had hired many
from the LGBT community. He looked at me and said "Why the f __* is everyone
so happy? We literally have 1 black person in a company of almost 1,000 "

Seriously, if you think that having colleagues having dyed hair or going to
Burning man is proof that you are meritocratic or inclusive you are in a huge
bubble.

~~~
civilian
:[ I'm a gun-shooting libertarian. Don't assume my Tribe.

You're right, the "tech tribe" does have improvements to make in inclusivity,
but at least it's a home for some people who would otherwise be outcasts in
socially conservative businesses.

As for a few things:

\- I think we're just as accepting of blacks, our high school education system
has just utterly failed them so much that we don't have a good pipeline for
getting black people into tech.

\- There are a different set of values in India that cause some clash between
them and Americans/Westerns. There's the culture of following the letter of
the request/task, rather than the spirit of the request/task. (Similarly but
differently, mainland Chinese suck at asking questions when they don't
understand something.) But my overall biggest complaints with outsourced
contractors is a culture of "get shit done fast, and do any hacks to get it
done". Because contractors don't stay with projects for the long-term, it's
not surprising.

\- The homeless and lower class are, almost by definition, not people who are
achieving a ton. Tech is a meritocracy, we respect getting shit done, and
we're not a jobs program.

~~~
gitlabuser
I agree that tech has been a haven for some who would be outcasts in other
areas. Specifically the LGBT community.

To address your other points:

* I don't buy the pipeline argument. I've seen huge bias is how the tech community treats blacks. For example, I've seen a few black colleagues try to transfer into software engineering and get huge amounts of push back. Ironically I did the same thing (transfer from product management to dev) and I was supported. Why was I treated differently? Probably because I'm Indian so I am supposed to be a developer. In all the interviews I do, people assume I have a CS degree and lots of experience even though my resume says the complete opposite. I benefit a lot from the assumptions around my skin color while a black person gets the opposite experience.

* I get why people don't like offshore centers but that doesn't mean they should assume there aren't some very talented H1B developers. I have seen many. India has some of the best computer science programs in the world.

* I don't understand your comment on the homeless but the point I was trying to make was that verbally insulting poor people, the homeless, or old people is not inclusive or meritocratic. I've seen many examples of that in the tech community. I'm not asking people in tech to give free jobs to the homeless I'm asking people not to verbally insult them.

~~~
sqeaky
Some homelessness is due to untreated mental illness. Some homeless is due to
other factors I am largely ignoring that, intentionally.

Tech is all about mental aptitude. Some mental health issues interfere with
the required skills and some do not. Someone with ADD, bipolar or impostor
syndrome is not strongly adversely affected, while someone with dissociative
schizophrenia and cannot make decisions that keep sheltered will not succeed
in tech and might not even with proper treatment.

What can tech do to better reach out to people who are homeless because they
have mental issues that impact their decision making so much as to destroy
their ability to maintain shelter? This problem is too big for a company to
handle we need cultural and government change to address that.

I don't know what is up with your black colleagure, could you expand on that?
I went from being a shitty programmer to a decent because a black programmer
taught me a few key lessons about how to think, so there are at least a few
mixed in with us.

I think tech is about as inclusive as it can be barring isolated exceptions.

~~~
sqeaky
Downvoted without rebuttal. :(

If I am wrong, then please tell me. I even asked for more information on
something I was unsure of.

------
gitlabuser
Personally, I think this article title is clickbait. Nowhere does the author
show that it's the _best_ industry for women, only that in her experience, it
was a better industry than medicine and a biology lab. And then some fluff
about meritocracy. No exhaustive comparison across all the industry areas, no
dive into data beyond one singular experience.

I'm tired of titles that don't explain what the article is about. Something
like "Why the tech industry is a good industry for women" would be a more
accurate reflection of the content.

We've been conditioned by clickbait farms to sensationalize our personal blog
posts.

~~~
ryandrake
It's so weird, this community's obsession with article titles. What is the
purpose of a link title, if not to interest someone and convince them to click
it?

~~~
gitlabuser
I guess I'm contrasting it to Susan Fowler's piece "A very, very strange year
at Uber" which if she wanted to could have been titled "Why Uber is the worst
place to work at in the entire tech industry".

I really respect her for letting the facts and content of her article speak
for itself. I wish more would do the same.

------
beaner
Pieces like this sometimes make me wonder if sexism is not actually more
rampant in tech, men in tech are just more open to self-criticism and
accepting that something is wrong with themselves and their industry.

All the things you hear about in tech, you hear about elsewhere. But the men
in them don't seem to compete with each other over who can be the most self
deprecating and sympathetic with those calling them out.

I wonder perhaps if this has something to do with the tendency of men in tech
to be smart, introverted, liberal-leaning, wallflowers, humble (or fake
humble), not socially well-tuned, somewhat feeble and self-sacrificial. (As a
tendency, not a rule.)

Picture the employees in a Wolf of Walstreet type company, and employees at
Uber. Is sexism equally frequent at both places? Probably. But which group of
men do you see self-reporting and willingly fighting to adopt a self image of
sexist? Probably not the Wolf of Wallstreet-ers.

~~~
mratzloff
Yeah, I'm definitely going to see this thread on n-gate.

"One hackernews points out that the problem in tech isn't endemic sexism, but
that male engineers are just so much better than all other men."

~~~
beaner
If you read my comment as saying men in tech are superior, you got the wrong
message.

Edit: By that, I mean the traits I pointed out above are debatable in terms of
desirability. Things like self-sacrificial and feebleness definitely seem like
flaws to me at least. I am somewhat surprised that you interpreted these
descriptors as superior.

~~~
mratzloff
I was characterizing it in the typical way n-gate posts are written and as a
means of satirizing the entire comment thread.

But I'll just add that you selected a couple traits for your examples out of a
list of largely positive traits (either universally regarded as positive or
lionized in tech almost as badges of relateable honor: introverted,
wallflower, etc.).

The overall message as I read it was "men in tech are more introspective and
empathetic."

~~~
beaner
Some are positive, some are negative. Introvert, liberal, wallflower, and
humble (or fake humble) definitely don't all seem like they're necessarily
positives to me, either. Even some of the ones that are positive can lead to
negative consequences for the men who have them, as a group. Introspection and
empathy are generally considered good things, but also can lead to the result
described in my comment. I'm not really trying to make a judgment about who
are better or worse men - I think you have to be digging for that a little
bit, if that's what you're reading. It's more just an observation that these
traits lead to that result.

I don't know what n-gate is.

------
Rjevski
Kinda off-topic but I have to agree with the "it doesn’t matter where you come
from" and myself am very grateful to the tech industry for that. If it wasn't
the case I'd probably still be working at a fast-food chain currently, as in
my country without years of formal education you're pretty much considered
worthless - if it wasn't for tech I'd be doomed.

~~~
barsonme
Similarly here. School wasn't the best fit for me and tech was great because
(like politics, which I also spent ~5 years in) you didn't need a fancy degree
to get a job.

~~~
Karrot_Kream
> you didn't need a fancy degree to get a job.

What's wrong with a fancy degree? I don't understand why fancy degree is used
as a pejorative around here. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that most people
these days that come from bootcamps make more money than people with "fancy
degree"s.

~~~
Rjevski
Nothing wrong per se, but personally I see it as a waste of time - you
could've built real products and actually improved the world during the time
wasted on that fancy degree.

~~~
Karrot_Kream
> actually improved the world during the time

You're gonna have to really qualify that statement. The vast majority of tech
startups do not improve the world in any way.

~~~
Rjevski
Okay, so does the vast majority of degrees improve the world? Even if 1 out of
1000 startups improved the world it's still an improvement over students
writing (often crappy) code just to prove their university they're worth
enough to get that degree.

------
rafiki6
This constant debate about industries that are good or bad for women is
getting a little old and tired. As with all things in life, I find the broader
culture tends to affect workplace culture tremendously. Women have tended to
shy away from STEM not because it's an antiwomen environment but rather
because their broader culture discourages them. My electrical engineering
class had about 20% females, and not a single one of them was Caucasian. I
went to a top engineering school in Canada. All the females were of immigrant
backgrounds where their families and their ethnic culture promoted higher
education in STEM fields. On the other hand, several other of the engineering
disciplines (the one's a bit closer to traditional science or business such as
civil, chem and industrial) had much more balanced ratio's. The problem in
North America is that we tend to promote "TECH" culture as male dominated and
geeky. Girls shy away from it because they face constant social pressure from
a young age to fit in (as males do but that's another story). On the other
hand, I come from an ethnic background and in my country electrical
engineering classes have the same number if not more women then men. This
gender diversity thing is a broad cultural and economic problem (also another
story). I hate when popular media simplifies it.

------
alistairSH
A few thoughts about the post...

She's new to tech. 2 years by her own account. That's not a lot of time to
experience all the industry has to offer (good or bad). No comment on whether
her feelings will change over time; they very well may not.

Pole dancing photos and other stuff. Maybe in SV. But, in DC, stuff like that
is very likely career limiting. I can't say for sure, that's a gut feeling
based on the jobs and companies in the area.

------
CodeLikeAGirl
Our founder's response to this article.
[https://medium.com/@dinah_davis/thanks-for-sharing-your-
expe...](https://medium.com/@dinah_davis/thanks-for-sharing-your-experience-
ed19ee949f48)

~~~
caseysoftware
In the original article, the author's claim was _" the most welcoming industry
I’ve seen"_ while your founder describes it as _" Claiming the whole industry
is welcoming is in invalidating their experience"_ and proceeds to argue
against that.

Unfortunately, this is the very definition of a straw man.

~~~
needlessly
to be fair, they probably didn't read the original post

~~~
caseysoftware
That was my initial guess too but the response quoted that original line
exactly.

------
mmagin
"In how many other industries can a woman post pole dancing pictures of
herself and still have a job?"

So, I'm not at all convinced that this is because of anything inherently
virtuous about people in this industry. Rather, I think it's that we're at a
point in business cycles and history where tech industry labor is sufficiently
in demand that potential employers aren't using extraneous criteria to discard
candidates.

While I think it is great that people are being treated well because of this,
I also think it's important that people don't become complacent about issues
like employment discrimination just because they happen to be doing well right
now.

------
throw2016
This is a rather sweeping statement that is in denial of experiences others
have had and reflects a lack of empathy than any insight into the tech
industry.

Why are you so concerned about 'skewed perceptions' than the suffering of
others? Surely the latter corrected will automatically address the former
without any intervention.

This kind of 'since its good for me its good for everyone' thinking is self
absorbed and often premature. One negative experience could send the author
careening to the other end.

------
mistermann
Well this should certainly make for some interesting dialogue.

I suspect there are some important truths in this post, and my intuition is
perhaps a bit of naivete as well, it's hard to say for sure. I think humankind
has a decade or two of suffering to go through before we can start to have
conversations at a level above adolescence on topics such as this, but by then
how many other things will have changed?

------
hammerzeit
Please, before this degrades into the inevitable shouting match, let's please
consider that there are two things that can both simultaneously be true:

1.Tech is less bad than many, many other industries. I can personally speak to
overt, even illegal sexism in the field of medicine at a level that would
cause riots in tech. I’ve heard similar stories in academia, to say nothing of
fields like manufacturing. We live in a sexist society, and the professional
world reflects that.

2\. Being “less bad” than other industries does not mean we don’t have an
obligation to do better. We as an industry need to be doing more to make sure
that the vast majority of stories are like this one. We’re not there yet.

~~~
nickbauman
In Hollywood, men at certain levels throw tantrums and break things when
something isn't to their liking. It's changing a little and the film industry
is ready for a comeuppance.

But in IT and many other industries this kind of behavior would get you flat-
out escorted out of the building. What's considered OK on a film set is not
tolerated in most offices.

~~~
leshow
> In Hollywood, men at certain levels throw tantrums and break things when
> something isn't to their liking.

How is that a gender specific thing?

~~~
nickbauman
Uh, it's _men_ doing it. Male directors. Male cinematographers. Male Unit
Production Managers.

------
drinchev
Article should be titled :

"Tech is the best industry for women, compared to the others"

It's not like it's the 60-ies. Posting photos about you having fun should
always be allowed wherever you work ( well, maybe public jobs is an exception
- politics, teachers, etc. ).

I'm sick of this topic, anyway.

------
bdcravens
Aren't many of the same points true for other disadvantaged groups, say,
convicted felons?

------
groby_b
Ah yes, the "cool tech girl" position. [https://code.likeagirl.io/the-myth-of-
the-cool-tech-girl-786...](https://code.likeagirl.io/the-myth-of-the-cool-
tech-girl-7868fa63769b)

I'm glad she has a positive experience. It's far from common. I wish her good
luck on the road of discovering empathy.

~~~
reitanqild
_It 's far from common._

Are things really _that_ different between here and there?

All the stuff described in your linked piece: I've never seen any of it in
tech.

In garages? Sure they are full of what would otherwise be nsfw. But IT? Can't
remember ever seing anything. 5 years ago I heard a couple of colleagues
discussing the title of an NSFW video that someone had started playing or
their computer as a prank after they left it unlocked. And about the same time
we had what I consider ann @$$ as manager in the department next to mine.

He would attack girls yes but he would also attack anyone else so I think it
was more about being a general @$$.

And I've worked at a few places.

~~~
groby_b
I'm sure you've noticed the news that the industry has a bit of a harassment
problem, right?

As for the "never experienced" \- you're lucky. Or just didn't see. I've
worked at openly sexist companies, I've worked with teams that had a regular
lunch at a strip club, and I've seen a lot of the "oh, girls can't code"
bullshit. I've seen black and latinx people completely excluded from team
activities.

A lot of the people doing that weren't aware of what they were doing, but that
doesn't excuse it. And if you look at things like the Petri Multiplier[1], it
will help you understand why minorities are more affected by this than
majorities.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrie_multiplier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrie_multiplier)

~~~
reitanqild
Ok. Just saying that you have a crazy culture.

None of that would fly around here.

So you are right: the things you mention are deeply unprofessional.

------
anotherbrownguy
When it comes to some of these jobs, there seems to be a trope that the job
market should be about "equal representation" which is complete nonsense but
it is great for women because big companies want to present themselves as
"respecting equality" and hence women are more likely to be hired in those
positions than equally qualified men. So, yes, it is definitely very lucrative
for women to pursue a career in tech industry. Even with that, there are less
women willing to do it... which I think has more to do with the nature of work
one is willing to do as their career more than anything else.

I have never read an article in one of these popular news sites on what should
be done to increase the number of men to teach elementary schools or nursing
or increase the number of women in truck driving or mining so I will not buy
the "equal representation" argument.

But I will add that tech jobs are better for women because it is more likely
to tolerate flexible working hours and remote work and is better for women who
want to bear children and are willing to spend more time with them. I think if
people actually believed that there should be more women workers in a
particular position or industry, they would be highlighting more practical
aspects of the nature of the job and how it might be better for them... or
highlighting some positive and uplifting facts like the first programmer was a
woman (Lady Ada) and one of the first programmers of general purpose digital
computers (ENIAC) were also women... but that is very difficult to find. All
we see is outrage politics (which I think is responsible for scaring away even
the few women who want to do the job) and it baffles me that they continue to
find audience for that.

~~~
needlessly
nobody cares about more men in elementary schools and nursing because its
about equal representation in power and influence that comes with wealth.

~~~
hasenj
It's all about money. I belong to a group that has less money than your group,
so your group has to give me money. If you don't give me money I will scream
right now to make everyone here think you are sexually assaulting me.

------
wand3r
50 votes, posted 12 minutes ago. No comments. Find it hard to believe that
many people discovered and read it that quick...

~~~
rhcom2
While the other more critical post was [flagged] after maybe 15 minutes...

~~~
pyrophane
What other post?

~~~
dgacmu
I assume they're referring to:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868390](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868390)

------
needlessly
She goes to MIT by the way. (not saying she doesn't deserve it)

I bet if she went to some no-name university and people saw her pole dancing
then her employment would be more limited

~~~
Rjevski
Do you have any facts to back this up? I would say education is pretty
irrelevant if you've actually got something to show off (open source projects,
etc).

~~~
SamReidHughes
It's not the education per se, it's the higher probability distribution of how
good you are.

~~~
dragonwriter
And, perhaps more significantly, the social cachet of the institution among
the population doing hiring and the probability of your network intersecting
with those of the people doing hiring.

------
KirinDave
This is a great article, but wow is the timing of its posting unfortunate.

------
cJ0th
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

