
Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month - artsandsci
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/24/apple-irish-back-tax-payments-begin-in-may/
======
dilap
When the people complain about the European union taking too much autonomy,
this seems like a pretty good example.

It seems crazy to me that Ireland is "not allowed" to set taxes as low as it
would like to attract foreign investment. Even states in the US can freely do
that!

~~~
avar
I don't like some EU taxation rules, e.g. the minimum 15% VAT, which
effectively sets an upper bound on government efficiency, but this has nothing
to do with that.

Ireland is not being penalized for having taxes that are too low, but, in the
words of the EC[1]:

    
    
        > Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to
        > €13 billion to Apple. This is illegal under
        > EU state aid rules, because it allowed Apple
        > to pay substantially less tax than other
        > businesses. Ireland must now recover the
        > illegal aid.
    

You can elect to have low taxes in the EU, but it's anti-competitive behavior
for a government in the EU to give preferential treatment to some companies
over others.

Ireland is perfectly within their rights to have Apple pay the same taxes
they've been paying already going forward. But to do so they need to adjust
the general corporate tax rate, not just give Apple specifically those illegal
benefits.

1\. [http://europa.eu/rapid/press-
release_IP-16-2923_en.htm](http://europa.eu/rapid/press-
release_IP-16-2923_en.htm)

~~~
eitally
It's interesting that this is true, because (at the state level, not federal)
this is table stakes to lure large corporations to locate in one state over
another. Just look at some of the pitches cities/states have been making to
Amazon for their HQ2, or the Foxconn deal in Wisconsin.

[https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/05/foxc...](https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/05/foxconn-
package-cost-wisconsin-eight-times-much-per-job-similar-2017-state-jobs-
deals/1080214001/)

~~~
throwaway2048
This is very negative behaviour in sum, because it becomes a race to the
bottom where you either forgo all tax revenue, or you dont attract large
companies.

Its good the EU has rules in place to prevent this destructive behaviour.

~~~
macspoofing
I don't see the negative outcome. Cities know the economic activity of 50,000
highly paid workers makes up for the loss of some property tax revenue. The
alternative is no highly paid jobs and no property tax revenue (as the land is
undeveloped).

~~~
Oletros
Then give the same opportunities to all the companies not only to some

------
knolan
The Government is putting the money in an escrow account until they figure out
what to do[0]. The money would cover Ireland’s social welfare bill for a year
which is a major cost to the Irish tax payer.

[0] [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-
taxavoidance/ire...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-
taxavoidance/ireland-chooses-bny-mellon-to-manage-apple-escrow-fund-
idUSKCN1GJ190)

~~~
walshemj
Well I hope they will be sharing it prorata with the other eu members that
lost :-)

~~~
secfirstmd
I don't feel so guilty about this any more. We bailed out German, French and
other bank bondholders for billions (that unlike TARP we will never see back)
when we should have give them 50% haircuts. 18% of my countrymen now live
abroad, far higher rates for young people - including way too many of my
friends. Most of the reasons for our mistakes are entirely our own but the EU
can bugger off if it thinks it should be able to set our tax rates - each
citizen will be paying back debts because of their banks for decades -
financially and at the human level.

~~~
IAmEveryone
I usually don't engage in this sort of trivial nationalism. But I just have to
inject that your retelling of this story omits the fact that Irish banks were
obviously first in line to go belly-up.

It is true that those banks had various lenders in Germany/France/wherever,
and that the consequences of an all-out collapse of the Irish economy would
have had negative effects in those countries as well.

But presenting it as some sort of altruistic sacrifice to allow them to rescue
Ireland from a potato-based future is just adding moral bankruptcy to the
other.

It's also frustrating to see such uninformed hatred, considering EU funding of
44.6 Billion Euros since 1976 was what essentially allowed an agrarian society
to catch up with Western Europe in the first place.

Plus, obviously, a large fraction of those 18% of Irish living abroad are
beneficiaries of the EU's open borders.

[0]: [https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/about-us/impact-of-EU-
membershi...](https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/about-us/impact-of-EU-membership-
on-Ireland_en)

------
atonse
This is wonderful news. Let's hope they go after Google, MS, and all the other
tax dodgers out there after this.

~~~
gamblor956
They are, it's just that Apple was by far the worst tax evader of the bunch.

------
frandroid
Finally some good use for that foreign Apple cash hoard. :)

------
heartbreak
The Irish Supreme Court has previously held that _ex post facto_ civil laws
are illegal in the Republic of Ireland. Is this not _ex post facto_ taxation?

~~~
dragonwriter
I'm pretty sure the EU law underlying this was in force in Ireland before the
taxable events, so no, it's just a retrospective determination of tax owed
under law in force at the time of the act.

------
amrx101
The Irish government along with Apple is filling an appeal against this. These
Irish politicians sure have best interest of their countrymen in mind.

------
afarrell
Hopefully they use this to build more housing.

~~~
chrisseaton
I thought Ireland already had a huge glut of housing that nobody wanted?

~~~
rbanffy
Quite the contrary. There is a monumental housing shortage.

But this is not where this money will go. When all is said and done, if Apple
still owes that much, it'll be divided with the rest of the EU according to
Apple's sales. Thanks to its tech hubs (it seems every other person on the
train is a software engineer), Ireland may end up with some part of it, but
most certainly not all.

~~~
chrisseaton
What happened to that huge number of empty estates built during the boom? Are
they in the wrong place? Can people live there but work from home?

------
dosycorp
You have to hand it to the Irish. As a plan to collect more tax in the long
term, offering (effectively) tax free status by not enforcing "Double Irish w/
Dutch Sandwich", to attract big players, letting them dig themselves into tax-
debt holes for a few years while letting them feel they will get off scott-
free, then enforcing it and securing a deal to get back-taxes paid, is pretty
genius. Very stable genius to help rebuild their economy that was pretty
crushed after 2008.

~~~
neilc
Ireland is not "enforcing" anything; the European Commission are the party
that ruled that Apple received unfair tax treatment. Both Apple _and_ the
Irish government are appealing that ruling.

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-
taxavoidance/ire...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-
taxavoidance/ireland-expects-apple-eu-tax-appeal-to-be-heard-in-autumn-
idUSKBN1HV1OT)

~~~
dosycorp
Yeah, sure. That was a condition by IE of the EU bringing this ruling. "You
have to make us look culpable as well, it's just better for business." You
really don't think that's how it works? You're too naive!

------
denysonique
Higher taxes are always passed on to the consumer, businesses are greedy.

~~~
namlem
That's not true. Research shows that, while some of the increases are passed
along, a large chunk is absorbed by the shareholders.

