
Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012) - johnny313
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120719-young-gorillas-juvenile-traps-snares-rwanda-science-fossey/
======
disordinary
In Aotearoa-New Zealand we set traps for introduced species like stoats, rats,
possums, etc. that kill our endangered wildlife that evolved without natural
predators.

The Kea which are very smart mountain parrots will go and disarm the traps in
order to eat the bait. They're smart enough to have figured out how to do
this, and are one of just a handful of animals that habitually use tools, but
are unfortunately too smart for their own good because their handiwork means
there's more predators for them.

But, some people don't give animals enough credit. Mammals and especially
primates are very, very close to Humans genetically. Animals are often very
smart.

~~~
danaliv
_> unfortunately too smart for their own good because their handiwork means
[certain doom]_

Reminds me of a certain mammalian species.

~~~
irq
Almost like this trait might be inherent in all mammals. Or does it go even
higher? All animals? All life? Evolve intelligence, begin building your doom?

~~~
antisemiotic
Plants are possibly in that club too:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azolla_event](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azolla_event)

~~~
DoreenMichele
I thought this would be something more like how plants chemically communicate
with each other about insect infestations so other plants can proactively
protect themselves or "scream" (give off a pulse) when attacked.

~~~
antisemiotic
GP was talking about life causing its own doom, so I thought that plants
causing a climate change and mass extinction due to uncontrolled growth would
be appropriate.

This does miss the "crafty solution to an immediate problem" part that you and
the original article mention, though.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I totally misunderstood what you were going for.

In that vein, one of my environmental studies textbooks had a comic of
microbes creating oxygen way back when and some of the microbes holding
protests against them poisoning their environment with all that icky oxygen
waste gas, ew.

------
hirundo
> "If we could get more of them doing it, it would be great," he joked.
> Karisoke's Vecellio, though, said actively instructing the apes would be
> against the center's ethos. "No we can't teach them," she said. "We try as
> much as we can to not interfere with the gorillas. We don't want to affect
> their natural behavior."

I would think that the main danger is in habituating the gorillas to humans,
teaching them that we're safe when we're not. It may be better if any human
interaction with them is aversive but not damaging, like pepper spray.

~~~
darth_skywalker
Pepper spray is actually quite damaging.

~~~
3martron
It was an example, captain pedantic.

~~~
savant_penguin
He is actually not a captain.

~~~
weirdo89
This comment is way underappreciated.

------
twic
Few technologies will ever stand up to the will of adolescents trying to do
things they’re told they’re not allowed to do -- Scott Berkun [1]

[1] [https://scottberkun.com/essays/37-how-to-build-a-better-
web-...](https://scottberkun.com/essays/37-how-to-build-a-better-web-browser/)

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
>Veterinarian Mike Cranfield, executive director of the Mountain Gorilla
Veterinary Project, also said he wasn't shocked by the news.

>"Chimpanzees are always quoted as being the tool users, but I think, when the
situation provides itself, gorillas are quite ingenious," he said.

>Cranfield speculated that the gorillas may have learned how to destroy traps
by watching the Karisoke center's trackers.

Looks like they may have learned it from watching humans.

------
patagonia
Or how about the video of the orangutan fighting the bulldozer destroying its
home? I used to think people just didn’t realize that animals have internal
emotional, social, intellectual lives. But I’m now convinced we know and
choose to look away. Tragically.

[https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/8896313/david-
attenbor...](https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/8896313/david-attenborough-
climate-change-the-facts-orangutan-bulldozer-video/)

~~~
Bartweiss
At the beginning of _Dune_ , someone differentiates humans from animals like
this:

> _You 've heard of animals chewing off a leg to escape a trap? There's an
> animal kind of trick. A human would remain in the trap, endure the pain,
> feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove a threat to his
> kind._

The idea is recognizable, at least. It's antelope individually scattering from
a cheetah, rather than forming a tight group that wouldn't be attacked a
second time. But it's sad, and kind of funny, just how wrong it is to draw
that line at 'humans'. Gorillas disarm traps instead of avoiding them.
Elephants defend their friends, even across species, and bury their dead.
Dolphins proactively kill sharks, and hold injured dolphins - or humans - at
the surface to breath. Even octopuses, not usually understood as a social
species, display clear theory of mind.

It's not just the endless redefinition of "tool use" that feels like hubris
anymore. Just about everything we consider deeply meaningful, emotion and
intellect and teaching and even ritual, is not a uniquely human experience.

~~~
erikpukinskis
My pet theory is that most animals know they’re conscious and know they are
part of one consciousness.

Humans evolved an illusion that we are alone in an individual consciousness
because it was an adaptation: the mistaken belief makes it easier for us to
kill, and kill in large numbers. Which happened to work well for us. It let us
kill off any humans who thought there was anything wrong with carving out a
new world without regard for the cost to other creatures.

Without that adaptation we never would have created civilization.

------
YeGoblynQueenne
> "No we can't teach them," she said. "We try as much as we can to not
> interfere with the gorillas. We don't want to affect their natural
> behavior."

Tsk. Like the Prime Directive but in the real world.

Well, isn't it the natural behaviour of gorillas to learn? If they can learn
by observing humans, without the humans specifically intending it, then what's
so different, or unethical, if it's done with intent? I think this is just
splitting of moral hairs that is missing an opportunity to help the gorillas
protect themselves against poachers.

Anyway, if we left the gorillas on their own, without interfering, they'd
eventually be wiped out by poachers and others.

P.S. It strikes me that the center's workers could have actually shown the
gorillas how to dismantle the snares and are only pretending to be surprised
at their "unprecedented" behaviour. But I'm proably just paranoid and jaded.

~~~
xwdv
I feel that if any human was found to be teaching gorillas how to do human
things, they would ultimately suffer punishment like Prometheus who taught
humans how to use the fire of the gods.

~~~
Someone
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_\(gorilla\)):

 _”Hanabiko "Koko" (July 4, 1971 – June 19, 2018) was a female western lowland
gorilla known for having learned a large number of hand signs from a modified
version of American Sign Language (ASL)”_

Wikipedia thinks Koko’s teacher still is alive (aged 72), so punishment
certainly wasn’t swift.

~~~
whenchamenia
Reports of actual language use by Koko were famously exaggerated, and only
seemed to happen with her teacher working with her. Hardly stealing fire.

------
DoctorOetker
Could the gorillas be the poachers? The story seems consistent with the
gorrilas warning the tracker by grunt to stay put, then dismantle their nearby
traps to protect the humans. This is also consistent with the fact that the
tracker hadn't noticed the second trap. I don't really believe my suggestion
though, but the coincidence probability does seem rather low for 2 such trap-
dismantling events during a single encounter between tracker and gorillas. If
they spontaneously dismantled strictly for themselves, I'd expect the traps to
already be dismantled, if the gorillas preferred the traps dismantled. Perhaps
human poachers set the traps, and the gorillas for some reason benefit or are
entertained by the trapped animmals?

>On Tuesday tracker John Ndayambaje spotted a trap very close to the Kuryama
gorilla clan. He moved in to deactivate the snare, but a silverback named Vubu
grunted, cautioning Ndayambaje to stay away, Vecellio said.

>Suddenly two juveniles—Rwema, a male; and Dukore, a female; both about four
years old—ran toward the trap.

>As Ndayambaje and a few tourists watched, Rwema jumped on the bent tree
branch and broke it, while Dukore freed the noose.

>The pair then spied another snare nearby—one the tracker himself had
missed—and raced for it. Joined by a third gorilla, a teenager named Tetero,
Rwema and Dukore destroyed that trap as well.

------
andyidsinga
From the article:

>"If we could get more of them doing it, it would be great," he joked.

>Karisoke's Vecellio, though, said actively instructing the apes would be
against the center's ethos.

>"No we can't teach them," she said. "We try as much as we can to not
interfere with the gorillas. We don't want to affect their natural behavior."

I wonder if this "prime-directive" style rule might be something they consider
changed - if there was a way to teach the gorillas to disabled various kinds
of traps it seems that would be great.

On the other hand, I wonder what the side effects would be.. anyone?

------
ChuckMcM
Kind of makes you wonder if human evolution was driven by predation.

------
hvmonk
I just realized that it is a 7 years old article!

------
breatheObserve
This makes me wonder how will the rest of the lifeforms will evolve in future.
Will gorillas become more intelligent to survive in a current human dominated
environment? Will they evolve to the point, where they become early versions
of the homo sapiens?

------
wildylion
So,is present time the another Neanderthal moment in our history?

------
0xFFFE
I wonder if we should show them how to write software?

~~~
viach
Not software probably, but could be a plan B for Uber's "driverless" cars.

~~~
frosted-flakes
That's probably not as stupid as it sounds. Well, actually it is, but if
horses can drive their carriages autonomously, could we teach gorillas to do
the same for cars?

~~~
tomjakubowski
You know there's a very famous sci-fi musical about why this would be a bad
idea!

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlmzUEQxOvA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlmzUEQxOvA)

------
bitwize
I imagined the adult gorillas sitting around going "Kids these days, they're
so tech-savvy."

~~~
barbecue_sauce
Millennial gorillas are killing the poaching industry.

------
TOGoS
I at first read this as "Guerilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers'
Traps."

Either way I'm all for it.

------
cwkoss
When will governments start selling licenses to hunt poachers?

~~~
ekianjo
Hunt poachers, then sell their organs legally at market price, and then take a
cut of the profits. This way the government does not even have to pay for
anything.

Of course, highly controversial idea, but if you really want to curb down
poaching, it might be a good way to fight back with better incentives.

~~~
tempguy9999
I recall an article on poachers in africa. In that particular case it was down
to poverty - I poach or my children go hungry. I've no doubt we'd all do the
same.

------
bwb
I for one welcome our new overlords, I hope to serve them well.

------
deepnotderp
"Kids these days are so rude"

------
gridlockd
Maybe we should experiment with giving these gorillas knives, see what
happens.

~~~
davidw
Dismantling the poachers?

~~~
whatshisface
A gorilla doesn't need a tool to kill a person - have you ever seen a gorilla?

~~~
magduf
The problem here is that poachers could have guns, so even though gorillas are
extremely strong, and a gorilla with a knife is a scary prospect close-up, a
poacher with a gun wouldn't have much problem killing the gorilla.

The solution is simple: give guns to gorillas and teach them to shoot them.
Now we'll have gorilla warfare...

~~~
HeWhoLurksLate
"Well, first we had the right to arm bears, and then everyone said that wasn't
fair. Now we're arming gorillas, too!"

~~~
lovemenot
What we fear most: Kids with Guns.

\- Gorillaz

------
UltraMagnus
Poacher: We're setting traps to give you Gorillas new homes.

Gorilla dismantling trap: No. Caesar IS home.

~~~
X6S1x6Okd1st
They are setting traps for bush meat

------
swebs
>Bush-meat hunters set thousands of rope-and-branch snares in Rwanda's
Volcanoes National Park, where the mountain gorillas live. The traps are
intended for antelope and other species but sometimes capture the apes.

>The hunters, Vecellio said, seem to have no interest in the gorillas. Even
small apes, which would be relatively easy to carry away for sale, are left to
die.

Pretty misleading for the title to blame poachers then, isn't it?

~~~
magissima
Considering it's a national park, hunting antelope is probably also considered
poaching.

~~~
boblebricoleur
Yes. That's why setting trap in some countries is a strictly regulated
activity and lethal or harmful traps are almost always forbidden. You can't
always catch what you intended to, so you have to give a way out to the guy
you caught by mistake. Snares without a stop are harmful by design.

