
A Big Test for Big Batteries - jonbaer
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/14/business/energy-environment/california-big-batteries-as-power-plants.html
======
philipkglass
AES just landed an even bigger battery storage deal in Hawaii:

[http://www.utilitydive.com/news/hawaii-co-op-signs-deal-
for-...](http://www.utilitydive.com/news/hawaii-co-op-signs-deal-for-
solarstorage-project-at-11kwh)

In California and Hawaii these storage projects will mostly be used in tandem
with intermittent renewables. But batteries can convert any slowly-adjustable
(or non-adjustable) electricity source into serving daily peaks. If nuclear
plants could store some of their low-value output at 3 AM to serve the early
evening demand peak around 6 PM, for example, it could increase the revenue
they get from the same number of megawatt-hours. At today's storage prices
that sort of electricity arbitrage isn't profitable but if storage gets cheap
it will have broad impacts on the engineering and economics of electricity
systems. It's not just about enabling higher renewable penetration, though
that will be a big story too.

~~~
walrus01
It's worth mentioning that grid power to the consumer is something like
$0.36/kWh in Hawaii right now, which makes off grid PV with even old shitty
AGM lead acid battery technology more economical.

~~~
sk5t
Refrigerators aside, isn't home electricity usage pretty low in Hawaii?

~~~
walrus01
For heating, yeah, but not for air conditioning and other stuff...

------
stcredzero
What about liquid metal batteries?

[http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_...](http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy?language=en)

From a naive/quick glance taking a Musk style "first principles" look at them,
being made of elements that are literally "dirt cheap" and available in major
construction project quantities would seem to be a decisive advantage.

EDIT: Seems they ran into major problems with seals:
[https://www.technologyreview.com/s/541851/race-for-a-new-
gri...](https://www.technologyreview.com/s/541851/race-for-a-new-grid-battery-
hits-a-speed-bump/)

~~~
walrus01
I am not aware of any that are actually shipping as commercial products that I
can buy with a net30 PO, everything so far is PR fluff, lab test and field
beta tests.

------
terravion
Does anyone here have any context for whether the concerns about AES and Tesla
batteries is at all founded or is it just journalistic hype?

I find it hard to believe that those companies haven't thought through battery
management at this scale. They both have pretty solid engineering records and
ability to deliver--not saying new things don't have teething problems--but
fires and explosions?

~~~
skybrian
Fire and explosions are indeed a risk when something goes wrong. I'm sure they
thought it through, but that's why lithium batteries need safety systems.

[https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-
saf...](https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-safety/)

~~~
epistasis
Everything has risks, but the risks of a lithium-ion battery fire are pretty
small compared to the huge gas leak that was part of the motivation for trying
batteries.

------
woodandsteel
My admittedly ill-informed understanding is that flow batteries have the best
basic characteristics for utility electric storage. Anybody know how they are
coming along?

------
delbel
Politicizing an engineering problem always fails, but this time I can't wait
to buy these batteries on ebay sold as refurbished, when the politicians and
executives come to the realization the project won't meet their expectations
-- because the battery technology just isn't there yet, and they have to
switch back to diesel generators. Like the ones we've been using since the
1930s (even before that) to deal with problems like this.

~~~
epistasis
Who's doing the politicization here, though? The energy industry has been
hyper-politicized for decades, and highly biased against changing
technologies. The batteries are going to work as engineered, it's
straightforward technology. The only question is the cost of those batteries.

This is also not a huge amount of batteries compared to, say, electric car
batteries.

