

Thinking bigger: a free engineering school - timothy1ee
http://blog.thecodepath.com/2013/08/19/thinking-bigger-a-free-engineering-school/?u=hn

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gfodor
Ok, so this blog post is spot on. Very insightful.

The problem is the punchline. iOS and Android programming is low on the list
of topics that I see as really extending your abilities as a software engineer
and thinker, are not deeply challenging, nor do they require close mentorship
to learn. Mobile application design, yes, but mobile application
implementation, not so much. (Yes I realize these are sometimes inseparable,
but this does not seem to be a design-focused offering.) The shelf life for
mobile APIs and design patterns is really measured in months, and
StackOverflow actually fits the bill nicely for most of it since you have to
throw out most of what you know every 6-12 months.

If you're really "thinking bigger", why not offer a class that focuses on
applications of cutting edge but _fundamental_ computer science research,
topics _informed_ by the current trend of mobile applications? Or research in
other domains altogether (robotics, materials, mecheng, etc) as applied to
software? Build something with a mobile component, sure, but that is an
implementation detail and anyone who has "plateau"'ed and is looking to climb
the next hill is going to be bored by a class focused exclusively on the
sausage making part of writing mobile apps. People like that have already seen
5 or 6 generations of platform-hopping, can pick up the basics in a weekend,
and instead want to learn how to think about things differently and learn
things they can use for the rest of their careers regardless of the latest
platform or API. In other words, focused education should provide _massive,
long term leverage_ , not a short term boost to the resume. There is no
shortage of topics out there right now that fit the bill. Just browse Coursera
to see for yourself.

Learning how to hack together an iOS app to market yourself to the "most
competitive mobile startups" seems completely at odds with the mission of
CodePath outlined in this post. This type of topic surely belongs in there in
the long run for practical reasons, but having it as the "launch offering" is
weird.

~~~
nesquena
I like your style and your sentiment here. We are committed to exactly the
ideals you outlined here. Tim and I are both startup founders and very
product-minded engineers. Our program is less about "whipping together a
cheesy iPhone app" and more about helping people learn design, product
development, et al. Every engineer is put onto a team which involves planning,
designing and building a product idea of their choice with plenty of
mentorship along the way. We have big plans to expand curriculum in all sorts
of directions. Mobile happens to be in demand and highly sought after in the
valley but this is bigger than iOS training.

~~~
gfodor
Thanks for the reply! I'm sure you guys will learn a ton with these initial
pilot offerings. Sans the API hackery part your students will certainly learn
a lot of timeless skills about practical product development and design, which
is great.

There is always going to be a lot of pressure to teach surface-level skills
that are in high demand due to companies who want more warm bodies to hack
stuff out. Not even top universities are immune to this, just look at the
spread of Java throughout top computer science schools and the proliferation
of classes on OOP that are now largely irrelevant just a few years later.

I think what you are doing is great. Don't lose sight of the big picture :)

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georgebonnr
This is really cool. A lot of his analysis on the learning process (and what
separates a good one from an unhelpful one) are spot-on. These are pretty much
the same reasons why I'm doing Hack Reactor (Learning the right way with
useful things to show for it in a very selective environment). In fact I'd say
this program pretty closely mirrors what Hack Reactor (and some of the other
top-tier bootcamps) are trying to do. The main difference of course being that
this one would be free, and that it's for experienced developers, as opposed
to new developers. But the principle is pretty much the same.

Looks like a great idea!

Only question I have is how they plan to attract the best simply by offering
the highest quality classes. Does highest quality mean most difficult, or will
they have some sort of standard for admission? For instance, admission at Hack
Reactor is pretty selective (under 3%). I'd be interested to see what their
specific plan is to prevent developers who may not be the best or who may turn
out to have limited commitment from claiming some of what I assume are limited
spots in the class.

~~~
nesquena
We are big fans of Hack Reactor and similar programs. I think they fill a real
need for aspiring engineers who want to jump into the field.

The key differences for us are we are very focused on existing experienced
engineers that want to learn new technologies in a hands-on accelerated way
amongst peers. We offer our courses in the evenings around a job schedule and
the courses are free of charge. Our business depends on helping those
interested find jobs they love. See [http://pandodaily.com/2013/08/26/job-
recruiting-in-silicon-v...](http://pandodaily.com/2013/08/26/job-recruiting-
in-silicon-valley-is-broken-and-these-guys-are-trying-to-fix-it/) for more
information.

"Highest quality" is a complicated thing to define but suffice to say it is in
part about creating ultra high quality. We provide detailed videos, extensive
wikis, hands-on projects, open-source and closed-source libraries, and
extensive mentorship. We also have a process for selection of our candidates
that involves a phone screen and a short in-person interview to assess
background and commitment to the program.

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cschmidt
Unrelated to the OP, but I thought "Oh like Olin College." It was an
engineering college founded in 1997 that had free tuition until recently. (It
still is half price.) It attracts the best and brightest. Great school.

~~~
mathattack
This is actually related to the OP. They were concerned that being free might
signal the wrong things to top talent.

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pekru
Think of a place like Tiger's Nest Monastery[1] or some remote place on a hill
in India/China/Vietnam/Cambodia.

A monastery like environment, complete with places like dojos where there
would be practice and sparring sessions, prayer and contemplation halls where
the young and old from various schools of thoughts (Mac/*nix/MS, anything)
mingle and discuss their ideas. A place where rank/wealth/ethnicity/gender
doesn't matter; and where judgements would be of the work and not of people. A
truly jedi-esque order of programmers, helping younger and able programmers
realise their true potentials. The place would have volunteers who teach for
free and those who truly want to learn. The Internet bandwidth, though
limited, would be used judiciously. The gates of the monastery would be open
for all those who wish to learn. And not just for programmers. The place would
be open for the curious from any background.

Wouldn't such a thing be wonderful!

[1][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paro_Taktsang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paro_Taktsang)

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ausjke
Sound too good to be true, they could charge half the 'normal' price or
something, what is going on here? has communism arrived in CA already after so
many years' socialism there ? :)

~~~
doktrin
I'm guessing they plan to charge referral fees for their graduates. Even so,
this sounds unsustainable.

~~~
nesquena
This article might help clarify: [http://pandodaily.com/2013/08/26/job-
recruiting-in-silicon-v...](http://pandodaily.com/2013/08/26/job-recruiting-
in-silicon-valley-is-broken-and-these-guys-are-trying-to-fix-it/) we see this
as an opportunity to fix talent development and placement in a big way. Put it
this way: consider the difference between an "engineering referral" from two
experienced engineers who have spent weeks with each carefully selected
candidate versus other models today. We have spent quite a bit of time
exploring the sustainability of this. All I ask is you reserve judgement, we
have a lot of ideas of how we can make this work.

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jypepin
I applied for the iOS dev course a few weeks back and never heard from you
guys. When should I expect to know if I'm in or not?

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VLM
"It’s a good thing that engineers enjoy self-teaching because it’s the only
option available currently."

LOL because he says so. I used to participate in the IEEE video conference
series in the 90s and they were pretty awesome. And reasonably well attended,
although expensive.

As for the lack of mentors the original problem of fire all the old expensive
engineers and only hire cheap inexperienced ones means the theoretical mentors
will have plenty of time for their mentoring duty; they'll be unemployed. Or
the purpose of this is to get them jobs; in which case they'll be mentoring
the kids at work instead of at the hackerspace?

A huge part of engineering unfortunately involves some expensive gear. As ham
radio guys have known for decades, stuff thats a generation or two old does
exactly the same job as cutting edge for about 1/1000th the cost. My POS
oscilloscope at home is about two generations out of date, luckily I don't
have the skill or other gear to do cutting edge work from the 90s so I'm all
good. Thats just EE which is fairly easy to do at home... don't get me started
on my previous career plan of ChemEng. Anyway a decent hackerspace Can help,
although in my chosen fields of electronics and machining I generally have
better gear at home than any hackerspace has (hey, they pay us well in tech,
non-computer hardware doesn't depreciate as fast as computer video cards, and
I'm not a kid anymore so spend a grand a year on gear and none of it goes
obsolete and by the time you're "old" you have quite a basement indeed)

One oddity is the only two engineering classes they mention by name are
Android and IOS and those are typically code monkey topics, not say, MechEng
or CivEng. I would think theoretical MechEng would be pretty cheap to teach as
would CivEng.

~~~
swamp40
Just as the scientists and tinkerers of yester-year once appropriated the term
Engineer from the well respected steam engine operators, today's programmers
have grabbed the still respectable term and ran off with it.

~~~
zalzane
>scientists and tinkerers of yester-year once appropriated the term Engineer
from the well respected steam engine operators,

engineer (n.) early 14c., "constructor of military engines," from Old French
engigneor, from Late Latin ingeniare (see engine); general sense of "inventor,
designer" is recorded from early 15c.; civil sense, in reference to public
works, is recorded from c.1600. Meaning "locomotive driver" is first attested
1832, American English. A "maker of engines" in ancient Greece was a
mekhanopoios. [1]

It looks like the steam engine operator meaning of the word didn't show up
until the 19th century.

[1]
[http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=engineer](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=engineer)

~~~
pessimizer
Siege engine:

[http://ozarkmedievalfortress.com/images/95.jpg](http://ozarkmedievalfortress.com/images/95.jpg)

~~~
swamp40
Wow.

