
U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus - dmitrygr
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/03/17/white-house-location-data-coronavirus/
======
bscphil
The interesting thing about ideas like this is that they reveal how
authoritarianism during times of stability does a terrible amount of damage
during times of crisis.

This is the sort of problem that _could_ be solved in a better world;
collecting location data to find interactions between people _would_ allow you
to get them tested faster and prevent a disease from spreading. But it simply
can't be done in this country primarily because everyone has the _entirely
reasonable_ fear that the feds want this power for nefarious reasons and will
never give it up - and they're probably right.

If we had a society where privacy was an absolute right, and civic trust in
our community organizations and institutions was built up over time, during a
crisis like this one we could come together and find agreement on a way of
providing this data to a responsible institution that would use it only for
the purpose of saving lives and then delete it when the crisis was over. And
they'd lose access to future data at that point too. Anyone who still didn't
trust the communal institutions could opt out, but the point of building up
this trust is that it makes people want to work together and feel safe doing
so.

We're so far from that in this country that we're not only paranoid about
privacy issues, it seems altogether most likely that our secret agencies are
actively planning to exploit this crisis to be able to spy on us in the
future.

~~~
guscost
I’ve regressed to my cynical default in the past few days, but “a large
institution that I would trust with this authority” sounds like pure fantasy.

~~~
bscphil
I don't know, maybe it is. Maybe the politics of our world simply are that
cynical and won't allow for such a thing to exist. But I guess I'm hoping it
isn't. I'm trying to imagine how a _non-authoritarian_ institution would work;
it wouldn't have the "authority" to compel anyone to turn over their data, but
just about everyone would have enough trust in the community and its decision
making process to be okay with it.

What I guess I'm asking is ... what if the organizations we built looked more
like the WHO, and less like the CIA?

~~~
teh_infallible
Personally, I think the only way we will retake our privacy is when hobby
level, readily available hardware, software, and 3d printable parts enable
hobbyists to create “good enough” phones with encryption and privacy options
that won’t exist in mass market phones.

Then an enterprising startup can deliver marked-up, preassembled devices, then
people might have privacy again.

~~~
saurik
The goalposts on "good enough" keep moving. When everyone else has a
holographic direct-to-eye refraction display, people are going to be as
disappointed in a 2020-level smartphone as people were with OpenMoko devices,
which still had a pressure-sensitive touch screen with a plastic stylus when
the iPhone has just come out with its relatively massive capacitive multitouch
display.

~~~
toast0
I was disappointed with the OpenMoko for many reasons, but the screen wasn't
one.

Things like it wouldn't read my sim (bug 666), the stylus was almost required,
but there was no place to put it, audio issues, sleep/wake issues, poor
battery indication and tricky to charge from a flat battery.

Sure, the screen was kind of small, but the resolution was high, so you could
claim hidpi before Apple invented it?

------
throwaway97777
Well, buckle up folks.

Android's GLS service has an absolute insane data ingestion pipeline
consisting of sensor fusion from GPS, Wifi, accelerometer, barometric data,
and cell tower locations. It's accurate to within meters, can locate you
inside buildings, can count your footsteps, and even knows what floor you've
been on.

It's been used by Google to tune its indoor WiFi maps and improve location
accuracy for _years_.

Anyone who has high location accuracy mode turned on and has Google Play
Services has _already_ been unwittingly uploading "anonymized" location data
multiple times an hour for literally years. In many cases such anonymized data
is accurate to within a meter and contains accelerometer data that can
literally count your footsteps and determine if you are walking, running,
riding in a car, etc. Anonymized GLS data is what informs traffic congestion
and many other "non scary" services.

Google believes the negotiation of a 7-day expiration of randomized UID is
sufficient anonymization to meet the legal definition in all of its markets.
It _might be_ right about the legal definition. It's wrong if it believes it
actually anonymizes data. Google believes a popup notifying that high accuracy
mode may upload "anonymized usage data" to Google's services constitutes
informed consent according to GDPR. _I think_ the EU would disagree if they
knew the technical capabilities of Google's infrastructure.

Google's internal privacy review system believes that they are safeguarding
the privacy of its users. Their model does not take into account NSLs or
interference from intelligence agencies. And it absolutely did not foresee
this.

The surveillance dystopia is here, folks, and your Android phone won't do
anything noticeably different. They'll flip some switches in their ingestion
pipeline and have an insanely powerful draconian surveillance network
instantly.

It's over.

~~~
viraptor
> has already been unwittingly uploading

Majority have been doing it unwittingly, true. But you do get services in
return. I actually know about the collection, and in case of Google, in my
opinion I get compensated in a reasonable way. I'm contributing to wigle and
osm as well to counteract the monopoly, but in practice - it's worth it. We
could attach some risk to everything and consider what would happen if gov
abused it, but we'll all have some threshold of saying "I'm ok with it in
exchange for participation in modern society" (it can be re-evaluated later of
course)

The alternative is to not accept any of the risks and live in a disconnected
commune. Which is ok if that's what you're after, but... that won't apply to
most people.

~~~
nathan_compton
I don't want to call you out personally, but I absolutely hate how servile
this attitude is.

Its as if you can't even imagine a world where you get some of these benefits
but where your privacy is protected either legally or technically. Both are
totally possible, but your lazy attitude about it is part of the problem.

One of these days all this data we've just been casually giving out is going
to be used for a pogrom or some other terrible thing and then it will be too
late for this facile "the benefits outweigh the costs" bullshit.

~~~
bilbo0s
> _it will be too late for this facile "the benefits outweigh the costs"
> bullshit. _

No it won't, because the horrible, but realistic, take is that the benefits
indeed will outweigh the costs. For all the people who are not targets of the
pogroms.

Horrible as it sounds, a lot of people don't really care about things that
happen to other people. Even if those other people die. Especially when the
other people are not like them.

Sometimes I wonder whether apathy is the true root of evil, not really money.
I'm no different, I'm guilty of that tendency towards apathy as well. I'm
certainly up in arms about privacy, but I really don't get the same way about
women's issues. Nor black guys being gunned down by cops in their apartments.
I may lament those situations, but I certainly don't donate money or time to
those and other causes.

Point is, root of the issue is that no one cares. Everyone has their own
concerns. Which is democracy. And that's great.

But inherent in that environment is a kind of built in "divide and conquer"
quality that provides political and economic élites a convenient control
mechanism.

~~~
raxxorrax
If blacks or women suffer from state suppression it would be natural to care
for privacy too.

------
ddmma
‘in moments of crisis, people are willing to hand over a great deal of power
to anyone who claims to have a magic cure—whether the crisis is a financial
meltdown or, as the Bush administration would later show, a terrorist attack’
(Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine)

~~~
dredmorbius
Speaking of Klein, she'll need to add a few elements to her Pandemic Shock
Doctrine script:

[https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/17/we-know-
script-...](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/17/we-know-script-naomi-
klein-warns-coronavirus-capitalism-new-video-detailing-battle)

~~~
ddmma
The updated edition should contain a special chapter on the underground agenda
from Davos or whatever G meetup

------
tempestn
The government tracking everyone's location all the time would be/is a gross
infringement on privacy. The government tracking everyone's location for a
limited time period in order to curb a deadly epidemic seems much more
reasonable. The difficulty is trusting them to give back that power when the
crisis is over. If not for the experience of the Patriot Act, I'd be more
inclined to give the benefit of the doubt there.

Still, if this were done in a truly open way, and the criteria for ending the
program were clearly specified at its outset, it's something I could support.
Looking at the Chinese response, advanced and extensive contact tracing has
allowed them to restart significant commerce in areas where initial outbreaks
have been controlled through social distancing. Doing the same here might not
only save lives, but also livelihoods.

Of course I would be nervous about the potential for overreach, misuse, and
acclimatization. But if the allowable uses and time-frame were set into law,
perhaps those concerns would be outweighed by the potential benefits.

~~~
didibus
They could make an app and work with Apple/Google to have it auto-installed,
but where the app can be uninstalled by the user if they wish to opt out.

~~~
alfiedotwtf
... and sunset this so once it’s cured, remove the capability whatsoever. But
it wont

------
angry_octet
They already have a mechanism to do this -- it's called a John Doe (wiretap)
warrant.

What they _really_ want is full take -- the complete location movements of the
US population. This would be useful for COVID-19 tracking ... and
authoritarian control.

~~~
jessaustin
When they pass the laws that require us to keep our powered-on phones on our
persons at all times, we'll know that they've perfected the Angel Teeth.

~~~
angry_octet
If you're following HK/China, you know that they are already doing this
tracking. Visitors and quarantined people are being required to do this in HK
by a number of reports.

[https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Hong-Kong-
tell...](https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Hong-Kong-
tells-30-families-to-wear-tracking-wristband-or-face-jail)

Up until the virus, they were mandating no face covering so their all seeing
surveillance camera network could see your face.

------
z3t4
Many governments already track and save all communication in a big graph
database - in order to know who communicates with whom - so they can find
"terrorists". It's just that in some places "terrorist" means people,
journalists, etc, that oppose the corrupt government. So the government
already know who communicates with who. And now they also want to feed
everyone's location to that database, so they can know everyone who has ever
met with or talked to a "terrorist". Where I live you can be sentences to wear
a tracking device instead of a prison sentence. Now everyone will be
prisoners.

~~~
zabana
A terrorist is whoever the government says they are, I think it's time for us
to wake up to the reality of things.

------
smaccona
I have been somewhat conflicted/despairing about Taiwan’s response (only 77
cases and 1 death as of right now, 2020-Mar-17, despite reslly cloze ties with
China and an almost equally early onset) since I read this:
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762689](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762689)
a couple of weeks ago. Paragraph 2 is especially instructive. I have
historically been dead against the type of cross referencing and
identification this article discusses, but their capability for pulling
multiple disparate sources together to allow tracing, categorization and
enforced tracking of all individuals is massively impressive. We really need
to either figure out a way to execute on these capabilities without revoking
privacy, or else accept that some granting of privacy (whether to Google or
another entity) will be inevitable.

~~~
oska
I've been posting that link in various comments on the web over the last week,
it's a very interesting article. But Taiwan is not the US; they have shown a
very healthy trend _away_ from authoritarianism over the last 33 years since
the lifting of Martial Law in 1987 (and the 40 years of 'White Terror' [1]
that preceded it).

Also, on the question of authoritarianism, I think there is a case for greater
tolerance of it during a _defensive_ war, where a nation is battling for its
survival. And I think a pandemic can be characterised as a defensive war
against an invisible, completely merciless enemy. Not to say that blanket
authoritarianism should be allowed but measures that make sense and help in
the battle should be shown greater tolerance _for a limited duration_. Of
course this is the whole idea behind (duration limited) emergency powers
legislation. Going back to Taiwan, their 40 years of martial law also shows
the risk of abuse, however I would describe the KMT as an invading power, not
a native, somewhat trusted authority (as is more the case with their present,
democratically elected government).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_\(Taiwan\))

~~~
throw4r5y34
> however I would describe the KMT as an invading power, not a native,
> somewhat trusted authority (as is more the case with their present,
> democratically elected

A Taiwanese friend mentioned that the majority of indigenous peoples of Taiwan
support the KMT rather than the DPP (the current party in power).

I suppose for them, all Han Taiwanese are “colonists” but the KMT gave them
more benefits.

------
dTal
What good is phone data if they don't even administer sufficient virus tests?
They should first tackle the low-hanging fruit that _doesn 't_ involve mass
surveillance, to show good intentions, before being allowed access to such
dangerous data.

------
nicois
I suggested something similar but based on using Bluetooth and running an app
locally. This would be more sensitive to proximity while potentially giving
away slightly less data about exactly where you are, and easier to opt out of,
either temporarily (while at home say) or completely.

There could also be the option of logging nearby Bluetooth addresses locally
only and looking up an online database of infected owners, or submitting
collected data online to allow aggregation and preemptive notifications of
potential exposure before symptoms show

~~~
mshroyer
I was thinking along similar lines. Maybe it's possible to use BLE for this
(don't know if the standard PXP profiles would be applicable or you'd need
something else).

You could also have app-level 24-hour rolling identifiers to prevent non-
infected people's contacts from being correlated over time, even locally—if
that would make people more comfortable using such an app. (The app would have
to keep track of all its previous identifiers; if the user is found to be
infected, all their previous identifiers would be marked as such in the
database.)

Some challenges off the top of my head:

\- What polling rate is needed? (How do disease experts define a "contact"?)
What's the battery impact?

\- What fraction of the population has BLE-capable phones?

\- What fraction of the population keeps their phones physically on their
person as they go about their day?

\- Can distance be roughly inferred from RSSI? Does the mapping of RSSI to
distance vary much depending on the transmitting radio / phone model?

\- If you live in an apartment, you might be identified as a "contact" of your
neighbor even if you never breathe the same air, etc.

------
Arnt
Meanwhile in Taiwan:

in 2004 the authorities planned how to respond to this crisis, and got the
necessary rights. Then they spent 15 years not abusing these rights, and now
used them effectively (including phone data).

The middle part is important there, the one about "15".

------
rock_artist
Israel started using cellphone tracking as of today. An in stable
(transitional) government got an approval from the justice department. The
tracking is based on location / cell data stored at the mobile operators and
should be used for tracking people around a positive covid person to send text
messages asking them to get into their home to a lock down for 14 days.
Cellphone data is retrospective of course.

However, once asked to go home. Enforcement will used current location data.

~~~
einpoklum
The _interim_ government (_not_ an actual government), which is headed by a
criminal who has been evading his trials on several corruption scandals for
several years, has given itself approval to access people's geo-location data,
phone conversation history, browsing history etc. using some covid-19-related
excuse.

The government had initially tried to have parliament authorize this measure -
but the "secret services" committee, discussing the matter, did _not_ approve
immediately, requiring more information. So the government just used one of
the draconian powers it has... thanks to anti-Palestinian legislation.

The tracking will _not_ be limited to covid-19 patients.

It is a total travesty.

It should be said in fairness that the legal infrastructure for this has been
laid over a decade ago with the "Big Brother" law and the General Security
Service law. People were silent about it then, and now the chickens have come
home to roost.

------
woodson
Already happening in Austria: (link in German)
[https://futurezone.at/netzpolitik/ausgangsbeschraenkung-a1-l...](https://futurezone.at/netzpolitik/ausgangsbeschraenkung-a1-liefert-
bewegungsprofile-an-regierung/400783565)

~~~
lorenzhs
That sounds rather like the traffic feature of Google/Apple Maps than what's
discussed in the comments here. The article you linked is very clear that it's
aggregated and only segments with at least 20 people on them are reported.

If I understand the Hill article correctly, the US discussion is about the
same kind of data ( _' An unnamed OSTP official told The Washington Post that
they were “encouraged by American technology companies looking to leverage,
aggregate, anonymized data to glean key insights for COVID-19 modeling
efforts.”'_), yet the majority of the comments seem to be assuming that it's
about tracking individuals' locations to enable contact tracing. I don't get
that impression from the Hill article at all.

What's actually being proposed, while not unproblematic, sounds rather more
palatable than the authoritarian nightmare that's being discussed here.

------
LatteLazy
Just ask the NSA they already have all of it, with decades of control data
too.

~~~
jbay808
I guess they'd prefer to maintain appearances.

------
js8
Cynic in me thinks that this is a request from the richest people and other
elites, who want to isolate themselves from the infected, all the while
blocking policies and measures that would actually help them.

I also want to point out, there are low tech solutions to track and control
coronavirus spread. Simply isolate infected or suspected people, not in their
homes, but in a hospital built specially for the purpose. Chinese did that.

Whether this is preferable to mass surveillance is your choice. I think it has
merits and is less authoritarian overall.

------
sub7
First person to make a phone with hardware switches for gps, bluetooth, wifi,
cellular and microphone gets my money.

~~~
mab122
Also pinephone.
[https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/](https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/)

Unfortunately the GNSS (GPS) is on one chip with modem, but otherwise great
feature to have killswitches for cameras and comms.

[https://wiki.pine64.org/images/8/89/PinePhone_switches.jpeg](https://wiki.pine64.org/images/8/89/PinePhone_switches.jpeg)

~~~
megous
If you don't want location tracking, you need to turn off the modem anyway.

------
creato
Wouldn't it make more sense to work with the cell service providers? Surely at
least some people turn off location permissions? I would think the cell
service providers have much more reliable data.

~~~
kanox
> I would think the cell service providers have much more reliable data.

Google tracks location history from GPS and this is accurate to at most a few
meters and it can be use to check if people walked by each other on the
street.

As far as I know phone service providers don't have anything similar. The cell
you're connected to can cover an entire neighborhood.

~~~
sgt101
That was true for GSM, but 3g & 4g have directional signal management, and
track location to enable cell 2 cell handover. Information is limited inside.

------
PeterStuer
There is no way to anonymize location data at the granularity required to make
sense in the context of the objectives stated.

------
mistersquid
Before the Federal government gets location data, they're going to have to
test to find out who has it.

~~~
readflaggedcomm
"The Fed" refers to the Federal Reserve, not federal agencies, branches, or
the government in general. Not to be confused with "feds," referring to
federal agents individually or in general.

Also, the submission title is simply missing a word: the article uses "Federal
government in talks [...]" which is a very conventional usage, whereas
"Federal" as a standalone noun is considerably more rare.

~~~
mistersquid
Thanks for the usage analysis. Long week with too much information overload.

I'll update to at least be colloquially correct.

Thanks!

------
fatjokes
The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to how
successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveillance infrastructure
to tackle this problem while maintaining a vibrant democracy. (When's the last
time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a powerful person to
account without pardon?)

The lack of trust in the US is really disappointing. Americans are so proud of
its democracy---yet consistently hate and distrust the government.

I fear at the end of all of this, it'll be like the line at the end of The Big
Short: "They will be blaming immigrants and poor people."

~~~
catalogia
Some of the things you're saying seem contradictory _(American politicians are
rarely imprisoned for their crimes, therefore Americans should be more
trusting of their government? That seems completely backward)_ so forgive me
if I've misunderstood you completely. With that said...

> _" The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to
> how successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveillance
> infrastructure to tackle this problem while maintaining a vibrant democracy.
> (When's the last time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a
> powerful person to account without pardon?)"_

South Korea isn't all sunshine and roses either. They had numerous military
coupes in post-war half of the 20th century. One of their dictators was
sentenced to death for massacring hundreds of pro-democracy protestors, but
was then pardoned for this. Things might not be so bad in South Korea
_currently_ , but the nastier stuff is still in living memory today. South
Koreans would be wise to tread carefully when empowering their government. I
think the cautious attitude modern Germans have towards these matters is a
good approach: _" Never again"_ rather than _" It could never happen again."_

As for the attitudes of Americans, no organization nor individual is entitled
to trust; trust must be earned. Insofar as Americans don't trust their
government, it's because their government hasn't earned their trust. On the
contrary, the American government has frequently violated whatever little
trust anybody has in it. Modern America may not have any recent military
dictatorships like South Korea, but there is nevertheless a lot of disturbing
unpleasantness in recent history.

~~~
fatjokes
I don't think you've misunderstood, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that
South Korea is all "sunshine and roses".

However, given that it seems that the American gov't hasn't earned its
citizens trust after ~300 years, perhaps it's time to try something very
different, or at least have an open mind to suggestions. Several countries now
have demonstrated a range of options: China, SK, Taiwan, Singapore. Some are
authoritarian, others are democratic. It may be time to stop arguing why each
case won't work here and give it a chance.

~~~
catalogia
I think a lot of people would like things to work differently, but trusting
the American government, which has repeatedly proved itself unworthy of trust,
doesn't seem like a good first step to effecting change.

------
walterbell
From [https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615370/coronavirus-
pandem...](https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615370/coronavirus-pandemic-
social-distancing-18-months/)

 _> We don’t know exactly what this new future looks like, of course. But one
can imagine a world in which, to get on a flight, perhaps you’ll have to be
signed up to a service that tracks your movements via your phone. The airline
wouldn’t be able to see where you’d gone, but it would get an alert if you’d
been close to known infected people or disease hot spots. There’d be similar
requirements at the entrance to large venues, government buildings, or public
transport hubs. There would be temperature scanners everywhere, and your
workplace might demand you wear a monitor that tracks your temperature or
other vital signs. Where nightclubs ask for proof of age, in future they might
ask for proof of immunity—an identity card or some kind of digital
verification via your phone, showing you’ve already recovered from or been
vaccinated against the latest virus strains._

~~~
kaybe
OK so people who don't carry their phone everywhere - is there no place for
them in that world?

~~~
lioeters
> demand you wear a monitor

Looks like that'll cover the rest of us..

------
DaniloDias
I wish our politicians would just fucking own it and declare their own
surveillance state rather than this bullshit death of a thousand cuts
public/private partnership horseshit.

------
lousken
In czech republic we already started doing this today [0] Of course, it
requires permission from the infected person

[0] [http://www.apms.cz/novinky/mobilni-operatori-pomahaji-
trasov...](http://www.apms.cz/novinky/mobilni-operatori-pomahaji-trasovat-
polohu-nakazeneho-pouze-s-jeho-vyslovnym-souhlasem)

------
xfitm3
Nope. No fucking way. Whatever temporary powers granted are akin to a drug
dealers 'first one is free'.

------
dredmorbius
WashPo is the source, and better, article:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/03/17/white-h...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/03/17/white-
house-location-data-coronavirus/)

------
sbmthakur
Looks like they wish to follow in the footsteps of South Korea:

[https://www.lawfareblog.com/lessons-america-how-south-
korean...](https://www.lawfareblog.com/lessons-america-how-south-korean-
authorities-used-law-fight-coronavirus)

------
kevin_thibedeau
Conveniently they already have a system that can track associations N hops
from any given person.

~~~
angry_octet
Which is based on discrete data from a graph built from phone calls, fixed
line locations and SMS/email meta data. It doesn't have (from the Snowden
dump) selectors for intersecting location tracks. TBH, I just don't think that
is the way the FBI finds dead drops.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Was based. They haven't been swimming in place for ten years.

~~~
angry_octet
They were already drowning in data, and as reported recently, basically no
arrests from it in years. It can't detect terrorists -- no Americans, not
foreigners, fascist or religious extremists, any better than stuff the FBI was
already doing.

------
harlanji
No comment that I’ve seen seems to acknowledge rejection of carrying a phone
around.

In order for the data to be uncompromised there would need to be a mandate to
carry the phone everywhere.

If not participating meant being cast out of society, some people might be
okay with that.

How should we handle it?

------
apk-d
They could, of course, do this the way any other type of institution would do
it: create an app that people would voluntarily install to gather this data.
Playing by the rules isn't how governments work these days, though.

------
gioele
Another sad +1: Italy is already using phone location data to track people and
measure the effectiveness of the quarantine:
[https://archive.is/6xXNu](https://archive.is/6xXNu) (archived from
[https://www.corriere.it/cronache/20_marzo_17/coronavirus-
cos...](https://www.corriere.it/cronache/20_marzo_17/coronavirus-cosi-
lombardia-controlla-movimenti-via-
cellulare-75c3d226-6897-11ea-9725-c592292e4a85.shtml?refresh_ce-cp))

------
grey-area
Best solution to this IMO is a special app which allows you to check in, prove
your virus status (have it, had it, don't have it yet). Map of other users in
the area so you know you're safe. You could then use that to check in to shops
etc. and not be allowed in without showing status, those who have it have to
stay home and check in for a given period. Uses biometrics to ensure a given
user is using it.

Apple should be working on this.

After the virus is contained or has burned out everyone deletes the app. No
feds snooping at location data required.

~~~
zhte415
> Map of other users in the area so you know you're safe.

I think that would be a terrible idea. Not everyone in the world is a
rational-thinking HackerNews reader ;). I would imagine it would lead to cases
of mob-mentality which could be very thoughtful like community support for
food/necessity delivery but also cases of unfortunate mob-mentality that could
be very bad.

> You could then use that to check in to shops etc. and not be allowed in
> without showing status

This is exactly what's being done in China. But without the map of your
neighbours. Everyone (that cares to go out) has a 'green' 'amber' 'red' status
code via Ali or Tencent. Green indicates fine, Amber indicates movement
(provincial or international, sometimes inter-city depending on province)
within the past 14 days, Red indicates suspected.

------
onetimemanytime
They'll never give it back

------
mrkeen
Isn't this already the case? Even before the smartphone era, haven't you
always been revealing your location to your local cell towers?

~~~
MaxBarraclough
Your telco knows which tower you're connecting to, yes, otherwise the system
would never work.

As the title makes clear, this is about the government gaining access to that
information.

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cbayram
We are in a pandemic and this won’t be the last. Gov’ts and society are
scrambling to contain the virus, save lives, economy and society. Pandemics
sow seeds of mistrust among neighbors, xenophobia and society starts falling
apart. Be kind, compassionate and constructive if you can help it. This is
about self-preservation. If there was ever a case for “move fast, break
things”, this is it. Your location data is already whored out to target you in
every which way. We have tremendous data and tech capabilities. We should
absolutely use them to effectively track and quarantine the contagion. For me
the threat of terrorism and Patriot act was bullshit reason to erode our
rights and liberties, but this is different. We should absolutely revisit
these encroachments on privacy by out gov’t in a post-mortem and legislate
accordingly.

When it comes to gov’t, I share a healthy dosage of mistrust. This is one of
the reasons I support the second amendment. But remember that the gov’t are of
the people and for the people. It is THE institution to defend our individual
selves against threats we can’t individually battle. As Michael Lewis puts it,
we have got to stop gutting the gov’t due to reactionary fear-mongering and
mistrust. We are only robbing ourselves and our children of their future. This
is a reason to feel patriotic for me.

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dminzi
I’m young and thus likely naive. But, is it not possible for a company like
Mozilla to make a small tracking app that users opt in for. Then, they get rid
of this when it is all over. I say Mozilla because, from what I understand, it
is very privacy orientated, but any trustable company would do (ie not google,
amazon, or Facebook).

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andrewseanryan
Well... it worked in South Korea. It would have to be temporary and only for
positive tests.

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fyp
It would be so useful if I got a notification if I happen to have crossed
paths with a person who later turned out to be infected so I can get tested
too. This will preempt so many asymptotic transmissions.

Such apps are already deployed in china:
[https://youtu.be/YfsdJGj3-jM?t=303](https://youtu.be/YfsdJGj3-jM?t=303)

We don't trust the government but what if it's just a private company who does
it? Google already has your location info:
[https://www.google.com/maps/timeline](https://www.google.com/maps/timeline)
They are definitely already using the information in aggregate to provide
traffic jam info. Hell I am sure facebook already does this for suggesting
friends too. On the balance of privacy vs social good, I don't think there's
even much slippery slope left to protect.

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tilolebo
I have just read a German article explaining that Deutsche Telekom provided 5
GB of location data to the Robert Koch Institute.

The data will be analyzed to understand the mobility of German residents.

So it's not real time tracking but it's still tracking.

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pgnas
Never let a crisis go to waste.

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everyone
I'm curious, if I have no internet access and gps turned off on my phone
(Samsung Galaxy S7) is there still hidden shit which is tracking my location?
.. Like, is GPS not really turned off for example?

~~~
vageli
> I'm curious, if I have no internet access and gps turned off on my phone
> (Samsung Galaxy S7) is there still hidden shit which is tracking my
> location? .. Like, is GPS not really turned off for example?

Your location can still be determined by at least your service provider based
on the strength of the signal it emits as received from the (presumably
various) antenna sites in the area.

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tsukurimashou
Even if the US had real-time data about every citizen movement, what would
they do with it, they cannot move huge populations of people like China can

~~~
cbayram
Potentially narrow down and identify asymptomatic spreaders of the virus in
early forming geo clusters. This information could lead to more effective
quarantine measures early on or post containment to avoid further outbreak
eruptions.

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ray991
What if every coronavirus victim voluntarily uploads their location data
publically (their identity kept anonymous). Now you can, without uploading
your own data anywhere, check if you have ever been in vicinity of any of
them. If you have been, you can get tested and then upload your own data if
that comes out positive. This way not eveyone has to share their data, only a
few who have been infected.

~~~
tastroder
> their identity kept anonymous

If I have your location data, you are not anonymous anymore. Especially these
days where you likely spent most hours of the day in your home.

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forkexec
Is this going to be the excuse to roll tanks and missiles down the street and
suspend elections too?

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34679
"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program." Milton Friedman

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kchoudhu
Yeah, ok: fuck off. Send someone to interview subjects of interest like
everyone else.

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dmtroyer
Nice work on the title.

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jriot
Could we all just not carry our phones everywhere we go.

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wyxuan
This should've happened a long time ago. I really think there should be more
cooperation between governments and tech companies so they can come up with
solutions like this much faster like they did in China

~~~
palijer
What solutions did they come up with in China?

~~~
sampo
> What solutions did they come up with in China?

New York Times science reporter Donald G. McNeil Jr. explains in this video,
and in this article:

[https://twitter.com/MikeIsaac/status/1238604080571772928](https://twitter.com/MikeIsaac/status/1238604080571772928)

[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/04/health/coronavirus-
china-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/04/health/coronavirus-china-
aylward.html)

