
Roche releases Covid-19 test recipe, after EC considers intervention - itcrowd
https://www.ftm.nl/artikelen/roche-releases-recipe-after-public-pressure-while-european-commission-considers-intervention-due-to-coronavirus-test
======
HarryHirsch
Roche have a legal problem. Their lysis buffer is completely unpatentable,
it's a standard reagent whose composition has been published many times over
and is obvious to any biochemist. And once you disclose the makeup you can't
claim trade secret either.

The sanest way for Roche would be to price accordingly, buying your own kit
saves technician labour, but we can't have than, can we?

~~~
pergadad
Seems the key issue is that they can't supply enough which creates a shortage
for the Netherlands as the machines (?) rely on this specific product. It's
called lock-in and is every company's dream. But the situation is severe
enough that a strong government like NL and the EU won't let them get away
with it. If you're a big company one the things you really want to avoid is
the European Commission coming after you for antitrust rules, that's where for
once legislation has teeth and the price tag for abuse can be steep.

~~~
the-dude
Your parent claims it is a generic solution.

I am confused what the problem actually is.

~~~
kokx
Even though it is a generic solution, they apparently use a slight
modification in the recipe (not which components, but the amounts) on which
the machines are calibrated. You could reproduce this, but it costs time and
you need specialized equipment that only a few labs have. With this
disclosure, labs can produce their own without that research.

~~~
the-dude
Thanks so much for the clarification.

Couldn't you just put the solution through a gas chromatography machine?

~~~
HarryHirsch
There is an epidemic going on, and personnel have better things to do than
optimizing a buffer to play nice with your thermocycler.

Any time there is a monopoly, prices have nothing to do with the cost of
production and everything with what the market is going to bear, and no one
but the monopolist benefits. And then the monopolist comes and wants to suborn
the power monopoly of the government to sustain its profits. Come again, why
should the European Union put the financial wellbeing of Roche above the
health of Dutch citizens? We used to have antitrust, but nowadays even right-
to-repair is controversial.

~~~
the-dude
I wasn't saying that at all. I was just wondering about 'how hard can it be?'.

It just needs to be analysed once. And there is a ton of researchers available
who are not medical personnel.

But if you want to argue : this whole Roche saga conveniently diverts the
attention away from the lack of action of our government.

~~~
prostheticvamp
If I am not mistaken, gas chromatography gives you composition, not
proportions. That’s not a minor hurdle in this discussion.

------
prostheticvamp
“ Pharmaceutical company Roche announced Friday afternoon that it will release
the recipe for its lysis buffer if Dutch laboratories ask for it. ”

Is what the article says. What it doesn’t say is whether Roche will actually
do so, or use stalling tactics. One shouldn’t count their chickens before they
hatch.

------
xiphias2
It's great that finally EU is doing something. It's better late then never.

Companies are doing their best to be profitable, but it can mean trillions of
dollars of damage to economies, and many people dying. Governments are meant
to step up in these situations.

~~~
iguy
No opinion on this exact story, but in general there's a bit of a balance to
be struck here.

Early on in this thing, there were lots of stories about companies reluctant
to fully commit (e.g. to manufacturing masks, or to dropping everything else
to work on a vaccine) because they did that for SARS, and then when it fizzled
out felt they weren't sufficiently compensated. Had they worked on their usual
business, they would have had their usual profits instead. But this year... it
would have been nice if they had worked hard in February!

~~~
m0zg
Why "early on"? Just yesterday GM tried to price-gouge the US federal
government, and restrict the number of ventilators they will produce,
prompting Trump to actually use the DPA for the first time in this ordeal,
something he's very reluctant to do other than as leverage in negotiations.

~~~
CamperBob2
But I thought Trump said there wasn't a ventilator shortage, or something
along those lines. Didn't he accuse New York of asking for more than they
needed?

Now, all of a sudden, ventilators are very important to Trump. Odd.

~~~
xiphias2
He doesn't understand exponential function, neither most of the people in the
world. It's counterintuitive, as the brain is heavily biased to linear
thinking. Also in western world generally math is not cool, people have a
strong bias against it.

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coretx
The Doha Declaration on the TRIPS Agreement and Public Health;

In Paragraphs 4 to 6 of the Doha Declaration, governments agreed that:

"4\. The TRIPS Agreement does not and should not prevent Members from taking
measures to protect public health. Accordingly, while reiterating our
commitment to the TRIPS Agreement, we affirm that the Agreement can and should
be interpreted and implemented in a manner supportive of WTO Members' right to
protect public health and, in particular, to promote access to medicines for
all. In this connection, we reaffirm the right of WTO Members to use, to the
full, the provisions in the TRIPS Agreement, which provide flexibility for
this purpose.

5\. Accordingly and in the light of paragraph 4 above, while maintaining our
commitments in the TRIPS Agreement, we recognize that these flexibilities
include:

(a) In applying the customary rules of interpretation of public international
law, each provision of the TRIPS Agreement shall be read in the light of the
object and purpose of the Agreement as expressed, in particular, in its
objectives and principles.

(b) Each Member has the right to grant compulsory licenses and the freedom to
determine the grounds upon which such licenses are granted.

(c) Each Member has the right to determine what constitutes a national
emergency or other circumstances of extreme urgency, it being understood that
public health crises, including those relating to HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis,
malaria and other epidemics, can represent a national emergency or other
circumstances of extreme urgency. (d) The effect of the provisions in the
TRIPS Agreement that are relevant to the exhaustion of intellectual property
rights is to leave each Member free to establish its own regime for such
exhaustion without challenge, subject to the MFN and national treatment
provisions of Articles 3 and 4\. 6\. We recognize that WTO Members with
insufficient or no manufacturing capacities in the pharmaceutical sector could
face difficulties in making effective use of compulsory licensing under the
TRIPS Agreement. We instruct the Council for TRIPS to find an expeditious
solution to this problem and to report to the General Council before the end
of 2002." These provisions in the Declaration ensure that governments may
issue compulsory licenses on patents for medicines, or take other steps to
protect public health.

/!\ All countries of weight signed this already, but not enough countries for
the treaty to be in effect and the deadline is in sight. /!\

Pressure this information & save lifes.

~~~
tomohawk
Sure, but there is a cost one way or the other.

TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch)

If its really important, then working out a deal that protects all parties is
far better than threatening to give the business to someone else by fiat.

Roche has invested a lot into these machines and processes. Ensuring that they
are adequately compensated and adequately protected from their competitors is
important. Not just for fairness, but for also ensuring that companies don't
decide in the future that the risks outweigh the rewards.

What will happen, for example, if some local lab starts putting together tests
for these machines and ends up putting the machines out of commission? Who's
doing the QA to make sure this is not a problem? Will Roche be on the hook for
this? And how will the people who are depending on this machine benefit if it
taken off line?

These are very complicated machines, and a lot can go wrong.

~~~
frandroid
Saving the economy which will then be able to afford multiple Roche products
is a pretty good payment, methinks.

~~~
refurb
That logic makes no sense. It's like the government taking your home from you
to build a new stadium saying "well, I think the ability to enjoy the new
stadium is payment enough!".

------
Vinnl
I might be misunderstanding the situation, but it feels like Roche has been
acting like a printer manufacturer: capture the market with underpriced
devices, but having those devices only work with a specific variation of an
otherwise not that special input material that only they can produce, and then
charging a premium for that.

------
willvarfar
Swedish healthcare workers have discovered that chlamydia tests they have in
stock are also effective at detecting corona. News (in Swedish)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706874](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706874)

~~~
jagger27
A commenter in that thread indicates it’s just the swabs being used, which
makes much more sense to me.

------
anonsubmit2671
Don't the reagents for similar commercial lab rtPCR tests typically have to be
kept hard frozen too?

CMIIAW: this doesn't seem like a readily DIY biohacking-possible project
without some significant infrastructure, procedural knowledge, and expenses.

Also is there a low-volume, open source rtPCR procedure with cheaper equipment
and consumables?

~~~
jdc
[https://forum.openhardware.science/t/pocketpcr-low-cost-
usb-...](https://forum.openhardware.science/t/pocketpcr-low-cost-usb-powered-
open-source-pcr/2187)

------
chli
Also this news that reagent is no longer required:

[https://www.ssi.dk/aktuelt/nyheder/2020/03-ssi-loeser-
stort-...](https://www.ssi.dk/aktuelt/nyheder/2020/03-ssi-loeser-stort-
mangelproblem-ved-test-for-covid19-27032020)

------
woadwarrior01
This is reminiscent of what happened in 2008, when Roche was the only
manufacturer of Tamiflu (Oseltamivir)[1] and the Indian drug company Cipla
managed to get legal approval to release a generic clone of it called Antiflu
in India. And the rest of the world followed soon enough.

Governments can and do lift up patent protections in times of emergencies.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseltamivir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseltamivir)

