
U.S. citizens no longer have access to most of the world - colinprince
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/the-sunday-edition-for-july-19-2020-1.5647948/u-s-citizens-no-longer-have-access-to-most-of-the-world-the-global-south-never-had-it-1.5648022
======
jkingsbery
I don't understand the problem... There's a pandemic, so people in areas that
are more affected shouldn't be traveling as much. The US has been heavily
affected, therefore Americans shouldn't be traveling internationally without a
really good reason. Americans are _not_ experiencing what Sri Lankans
experience, because Americans can't go anywhere, and mostly shouldn't be going
anywhere; Sri Lankans (under normal circumstances) experience real pain
because of visa issues.

The article doesn't bother to interview any Americans that these travel
restrictions have caused actual problems for. That would have been more
helpful than interviewing a European academic. An anecdote (or some actual
data) would helpful describe the real problem instead of just saying, "Take
that, America!"

~~~
benrbray
I'm someone who the travel restrictions have caused actual problems for. In
March I accepted an offer for my first full-time job out of school at a
company in Tokyo. I was scheduled to move in May, but the travel ban put a
halt on my visa process.

In the meantime, I've started working remotely, but it has been extremely
difficult due to being remote with the 13 hour time difference. This certainly
isn't how I expected to start my first job.

Our reaction to the pandemic has been a huge disappointment. Since March, I've
been watching closely as other countries see their first cases, make the tough
decision to lock down, wait it out a few months, then finally reopen as cases
fall.

Here, we never really committed to the lockdown. Where I live in Georgia, it
was only a few weeks ago that the governor started recommending mask usage.

Needless to say, I don't plan ever to return to the United States once I
leave. This country is hopeless.

~~~
dorchadas
> Needless to say, I don't plan ever to return to the United States once I
> leave. This country is hopeless.

Indeed. I was hoping this year would be my year to get out too, with a masters
program abroad. Now, I'm not sure if it's wise to do that, especially as it
was in finance and the finance sector in that country's taken a huge hit, and
connections I have there aren't optimistic about it hiring well anytime soon.

------
eric4smith
As an American living (and trapped) abroad - I get looks of sympathy and
shakes or the head when I mention I’m from the states.

One thing I have noticed is that countries want tourism but are now super
careful about who they let in.

Recently I wanted to travel elsewhere, but was unable to enter most of the
world with my American passport. So I got another extension instead for 2 more
months.

Another thing I’ve noticed is that some countries now actually are beginning
to realize that their economies are down, but can survive without the hordes
of dirty foreigners coming to their country. So there is just no rush to
reopen especially with the medium sized and fast growing countries.

Nationalism to some small degree is definitely in play in a lot of governments
these days.

And with the resurgence of the virus, lockdowns are being expended and
reestablished in many places.

The reopenings planned for August 1 are definitely not going to happen.

No passport is any good right now - except in its own region.

~~~
RestlessMind
> Another thing I’ve noticed is that some countries now actually are beginning
> to realize that their economies are down, but can survive without the hordes
> of dirty foreigners coming to their country.

Are you sure? Travel and tourism account for 13% of the economy in Italy and
9% in France and Europe as a whole [1]. So maybe the pain will be tolerated
only for a short while before these economies are compelled to open doors to
Americans (and Chinese too).

[1] [https://www.wsj.com/articles/europes-tourist-hot-spots-
suffe...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/europes-tourist-hot-spots-suffer-as-u-
s-big-spenders-are-told-to-stay-away-11594132862)

~~~
Bayart
France has a lot of domestic tourism, and to an extent European tourism. The
economy has been rebounding faster than anticipated so I'm not sure the
government would be keen on pulling its pants down to bring in tourists when
it's already got more than enough bad press.

------
intsunny
As an American living overseas I've come to this realization: If Americans
cannot respect the rules of their homeland in the language they understand,
how can they be expected to elsewhere?

Outside the USA, the opinion of the USA is not great [0] right now and it
seems unlikely these bans will go away. It sucks for those of us who are doing
our parts to flatten the curve and prevent overwhelming the medical systems.

[0] [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/world/europe/Ireland-
amer...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/world/europe/Ireland-americans-
break-quarantine.html)

~~~
jb775
> _the opinion of the USA is not great right now_

The "opinion" of the USA has never been great, ever since our country was
founded. And yet we're the only ones everyone talks about. And our culture and
policies and businesses and finances permeate the world. And people are
literally dying trying to get in. And then we need to save the world from one
of their crazy dictators and the cycle restarts all over again.

~~~
refurb
I've noticed this too. Currently visiting Canada and I'd say 70% of the
national news coverage is the US which I found _really_ weird. Is there not
enough going on in Canada or other parts of the world?

And the best part is the Canadian PM is embroiled in a big scandal, but it's
getting less coverage than Covid in the US.

Oh and this article _is a fantastic example of that_. Why would the CBC decide
this is a topic worth writing about?

~~~
smegger001
Its a population issue. the US is very close culturally, and has a
overwhelmingly larger population. California alone has more people the the
entity of Canada.

~~~
refurb
Completely understand that the US is more relevant to Canada than say European
countries, but I guess the coverage is way more than I would expect.

I could see covering the _major_ news stories out of the US, but seems to go
far beyond that. If you watched the first 20 min of a 30 min national Canadian
news show, I'd argue you'd have a hard time telling it apart from US national
news shows.

And to be honest, I think it would be great if Canada covered other important
international news out of Asia or Europe.

Just my two cents.

~~~
smegger001
hell I wish US news covered more international news

------
capableweb
> Americans used to have one of the most prized passports in the world,
> considered a golden ticket to wealth, travel and opportunity.

What? This is not at all true. Maybe that's a belief that many Americans have,
but the US passport is not one of the most prized passports in the world,
there are about 30 other country's passport I'd rather have before having a US
one, if you're talking about getting access to other countries with/without
requiring a visa. A quick check of any of the "passport indexes" (Henley
Passport Index, Arton Capital Passport Index) will show you that the US
passport is fairly low ranked compared to the top ones.

Hard to take the rest of the article serious when it starts out with a serious
flaw in the reasoning.

~~~
learc83
>but the US passport is not one of the most prized passports in the world

Henley Passport Index ranks the US at #7, by a reasonable definition of "one
of the most prized", I'd say #7 counts.

#1 Japan only has access to 6 more countries visa free than the US does.

Edit: The US was ranked #1 in 2006, went down to #7 by 2010, and then was back
up to #1 in 2014. We're talking swinging between 185 countries with visa free
access and 191 countries here, so the top 10 positions change frequently.

~~~
gruez
To add to this, most of the additional countries aren't really umm... worth
traveling to, at least for most people. I compared against germany, and the
additional countries are:

    
    
        Myanmar
        Pakistan
        Vietnam
        Venezuela
        Iran
        Turkey
    

I'm sure those countries have interesting places to go to and the people there
are nice, but they're not exactly on the top of most tourists' list when it
comes to destinations.

edit: not sure what the downvotes are about. maybe hn thinks that all
countries are equal, and thinking otherwise is racist?

~~~
Cenk
According to this list, Turkey ranks 6th in tourist destinations worldwide:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings#Most_vi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings#Most_visited_destinations_by_international_tourist_arrivals)

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
I think the operative metric is how it would rank for US passport holders in a
world where the us passport was entirely unrestricted. I.e. how much is the
typical US passport holder losing out compared to their ideal preferences. I
think the parent's point is accurate by that metric. I doubt that many
Americans urgently desire to travel there compared to most other places. I
would actually quibble more with Vietnam -- it seems like a fantastic tourist
destination, similar in many respects to Thailand.

~~~
Cenk
gruez said the countries on the list are “not worth travelling to“ and “not
exactly on the top of most tourists’ list”, but if Turkey is the 6th most
popular tourist destination in the world that’s obviously not true

~~~
gruez
>gruez said the countries on the list are “not worth travelling to“

correction: " _most_ of the countries", and "at least for _most_ people".
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23977923](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23977923)

------
product50
This is just a matter of time. Almost all countries actually want US citizens
to come there, for tourism purposes, due to their high spend potential
(relative to other countries).

~~~
capableweb
> Almost all countries actually want US citizens to come there, for tourism
> purposes

Please do provide evidence of this. Most people I've seen being surveyed in
Europe around tourists don't care where they come from, as long as they spend
money and don't ruin stuff.

Americans, along with the British and the French, seems to be the groups that
most people complained about when it comes to groups vacationing in Europe.

Edit: lot's of people replying, which is great. But none of providing
evidence, which is explicitly requested in this comment. Would love to see
some hard facts rather than people's anecdotes.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
> Most people I've seen being surveyed in Europe around tourists don't care
> where they come from, as long as they spend money and don't ruin stuff.

Right, but American tourists make up a significant portion of tourist
spending. Ergo, if you want tourist money, you want American tourists. Not
necessarily more or less than other types of tourists, but that's not
important.

~~~
VBprogrammer
Americans are well known for tipping astronomical amounts in relation to most
European countries. No doubt due to their crazy social construct of paying for
a service and paying the person providing a service separately, which is
pretty foreign in most European nations.

------
g123g
There are travel restrictions all over the world currently due to the COVID-19
situation. People are not allowed to travel from one city to another in the
same country without proper documents. Lots of countries are not even allowing
international flights at this point. To tie this in just with US passport is
simply politically motivated.

~~~
fermienrico
It is the mix of current US sentiments, its leadership combined with the total
chaos going on in this country - journalists are doing a disservice by
perpetuating and provoking tribal instincts of nationalism. They're hyping up
the downfall of the United States and hoping to get more clicks.

Folks who are non-Americans are getting a spicy juicy dose of some anti-US
sentiments which is being drank in large quantities overseas.

What a sad time.

------
jb775
There's a worldwide pandemic going on, no one currently has access to "most of
the world". Not sure the point of spinning this as a U.S. citizen specific
issue...I guess Canadian journalists just can't resist

------
yalogin
I don't think losing access to most of the world is a permanent thing. It's
purely because of the virus and nothing else which is self inflicted. The
foreign policy and all around lack of empathy shown by the WH will all pass.

As a country though, the US has become the beacon of anti-science nut jobs
starting from the president. For the leading tech country in the world, it's
jarring how anti-science it is. The whole world seems to have gotten a grip on
the situation except the US, which is still consumed with frivolous things
like throwing the first pitch at the Yankees game , just because he is jealous
of Dr.Fauci.

------
pdog
Most Americans don't even realize they're trapped in their own country now.
You can't leave even if you want to.

~~~
lbotos
I just flew from JFK -> LHR via Dublin last week. Quarantine for two weeks,
and I could enter Germany as per the UK GOV:

"In line with the European Commission recommendation, from 2 July Germany is
gradually lifting restrictions on entry from third states where the COVID-19
epidemiological situation is improving. The rules concern travellers’ place of
immediate prior stay, not their nationality."

[https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/germany/entry-
requi...](https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/germany/entry-requirements)

(I'm not going to leave the UK or even the flat I'm in for the matter). Travel
in COVID Era is stressful, but once you are out of the US "illness free" for
two weeks, it seems like a US citizen wouldn't be barred.

~~~
pb7
I think they go by your current permanent residence or citizenship, not which
country you came from last, otherwise it would be fairly easy to get into the
EU just by quarantining in stopover country.

------
627467
This type of news may go stale very quickly... Yes pandemic has instantly
created myriad set of obstacles to travel and migration around the world.

Maybe some of these restrictions will take enough time to be lifted... But,
does anyone believe that most of the world will suddenly reject American money
(for business and leisure) for long term?

I mean, just look at the "in-fight" happening in Europe where southern
countries want northern tourists despite pandemic status...

------
ebg13
If it makes anyone feel better, most U.S. citizens have _never_ had access to
any part of the world because they've been too busy barely making ends meet
working dead-end jobs with no healthcare or vacations.

So, in the grand scheme of things, is it really so terrible if the middle
echelons feel a little squeeze as well as a result of political malfeasance
from the people that they (collectively, not individually) put into power?

~~~
josefresco
I hear what you're saying but American's travel more, and spend more on travel
than almost any other nation (I just looked it up, URL is in another comment)

~~~
ebg13
America is a very large nation, and it has more people in it than almost any
other. It's also, as an aggregate average, wealthier than almost any other
nation.

And at the same time, most people inside it are not individually wealthy
enough to thrive inside it to the extent where they could fly overseas for a
while.

Per
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane/2019/05/02/percentage-o...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane/2019/05/02/percentage-
of-americans-who-never-traveled-beyond-the-state-where-they-were-born-a-
surprise/)

As many as 13 percent say they have never flown in an airplane.

Forty percent of those questioned said they’ve never left the country.

Over half of respondents have never owned a passport.

And that's even with lumping Mexico/Canada into the same group as other
continents when they are very dissimilar in terms of travel feasibility.
Mexico and Canada get 55% of all international travel from the US.

Is that better than an impoverished nation? Absolutely. Does one typically
classify the US as an impoverished nation? Not typically.

~~~
josefresco
The Forbes article, and the data it's based off isn't insightful unless we
have something to compare. How much do citizens of other nations travel from
region to region within their own country? What about beyond the countries
that immediately border their own?

If the context is _just America_ yes, you can make the assertion that your
typical American doesn't, or can't travel as often as they'd like
internationally. However in the context of this discussion I asserted that
American's will notice a travel ban, because compared to the rest of the world
they travel a lot.

~~~
ebg13
> _I asserted that American 's will notice a travel ban_

A very small percentage of Americans will notice an overseas travel ban right
now, given that:

1\. Only 20-30% of US citizens have _ever_in_their_lives_ traveled outside of
North America. (The percentage of people who have ever left the country X the
percentage of non-Mexico/Canada international travel.)

2\. There's a global pandemic that the US isn't handling well. People in group
1 are not rushing to rub elbows with strangers in airplanes right now.

The only countries that we can unqualifiedly say that "Americans" _may_ notice
right now are Canada and Mexico (by car, flying still allowed).

------
maerF0x0
US Citizenship may have once been a prestigous thing, but now it's met with a
sort of elitism that suggests Americans are inferior (stupid, boorish,
backward etc). In my experience living here the differences between Canada &
the US are grossly exaggerated and many countries respect Canada much more.

I think the well calibrated view would give America more credit for the role
it's played/playing globally.

------
JSavageOne
I'm currently trapped in the U.S. waiting for my passport renewal, which
currently takes 3-4 months. Since you have to mail in your existing passport
to get your passport renewed, I literally have no passport until the new one
arrives in the mail. People who applied for their new passports in March are
only now getting their new passports in the mail today.

I know someone will say "oh you shouldn't be traveling anyways". I don't live
in the U.S. anymore, I live abroad. I only returned to the U.S. because I had
hit my visa limit abroad, and thought I could get my passport renewed within a
reasonable time frame in the U.S. (max 1 month). How stupid of me to assume my
country took passport processing seriously and with any sense of urgency.

------
tmountain
What is a theoretical maximum time frame for Europe to ban visitors from the
US? It seems like the allure of tourists dollars will likely trump public
health concerns at some point. Does anyone see this lasting for another year
or longer?

------
Jommi
The whole backwards part about this is that the Schengen travel restrictions
are still in place.

So somebody who has visited a Schengen country even with under 10 covid cases
a week (like most Nordics) can't travel directly to the US.

They have to fly to a country like Mexico or Canada (which are both still
battling covid) and then enter the border after 14 days.

Oh BUT if you're a US citizen or with a resident visa, you can enter from
wherever.

Oh AND if you're a student with in person classes, you can enter.

But me with a house and a job and a visa, can't enter.

How the fuck can this happen?

------
phyzome
Full headline is better:

"U.S. citizens no longer have access to most of the world — the global South
never had it"

------
m1117
IMO it's temporary. (IMHO!) The population of America is very large, and it's
hard for the government to control all the idiots(a good percentage of the
population?) who live in it, and also it's hard for the government to be
organized themselves because they're busy fighting for power and blaming each
other. Great country, but COVID exposed some of the weaknesses.

------
harimau777
Does anyone know:

How difficult is it for a Sri Lankan citizen to get a temporary visa to come
to a developed nation (e.g. for vacation or a business trip)?

What is the reasoning for this situation? Other than edge cases where a nation
is a security risk or where illegal immigration is a concern what does
democratic a country gain by keeping visitors out?

~~~
tmmx
I am a Sri Lankan, and as far as I know only developed nation that allow visa
free travel for Sri Lankans is Singapore. If you want to visit any other
developed nation, you have to show you have enough funds (or someone else is
sponsoring) and have connections to Sri Lanka.

I think one of the why our passport ranks in the bottom was during the Sri
Lankan civil war there was lot of refugees from Sri Lanka, so developed
countries started to look at every Sri Lankan as potential refugee or asylum
seeker. It has been 11 years since the civil war ended, but developed world's
treatment remains the same.

The irony is sometimes you will see some European tourists, who had no issues
getting visa to Sri Lanka, begging and doing street performance in the streets
of Sri Lanka.

------
derg
It's so weird for me personally because while I have absolutely zero interest
in boarding a plane to go _anywhere_ at the moment, there is a weird small
feeling of being trapped so to speak. like losing the option (that i wasn't
going to use anyway) to pick up and go anywhere i could theoretically want to.

not complaining, just observing a feeling because there are more pressing
things for this country and myself at the moment and as the article points out
we're now experiencing what it's like for a fairly sizable portion of the
world. I guess we are in the middle of reaping what we've sown.

------
duxup
>considered a golden ticket to wealth

The limits on travel are interesting but overstatements like that really
trickle into absurdity.

The US's role in the world is changing, but to demonstrate it folks seem to
adopt a lot of wonky ideas of what it was.

------
sakopov
This clickbait of a title is missing "amidst Coronavirus pandemic"

------
jeffbee
And if your passport expired during COVID-19, like mine did, you can
apparently forget about getting a new one for at least a year.

~~~
pb7
At first glance, it would appear so but if you check the FAQ where they list
the number of current passport renewal applications and how many they get
through per week, right now there's about a ~8 week wait. Long, but not a
year.

~~~
jeffbee
I guess I formed this opinion since I have to apply in person for my
childrens' renewals.

~~~
pb7
Ah yeah, good luck with that. They want nothing to do with in-person renewals
right now.

------
irrational
On the one hand I think "Oh good, all these people who are convinced of the
superiority of the USSA will start to get a clue." But, then I remember that
these are also the same people who are extremely unlikely to have ever left
their hometown, much less traveled to a different country. So this won't phase
them at all.

------
dominotw
haha damn. I just became a US citizen few months ago after waiting a lifetime
in the queue :/ .

~~~
120bits
Congrats! I'm still waiting for it. No idea when I will get my EAD. Been
almost 9 years in US.

~~~
dominotw
Thank you. I got mine after ~18 yrs :)

------
kgwgk
U.S. citizens != U.S. residents

------
Trias11
The bigger problem for US citizens is that US Passport is essentially an IRS
trap, no matter where you decide to live.

~~~
AlchemistCamp
How does having a passport affect a US citizen's taxes?

------
4cao
In the middle of a pandemic, similar restrictions apply to everyone. These
restrictions are generally not based on citizenship but residency. Everybody
is encouraged to stay where they are (or were, when it broke out).

US citizens residing abroad are not being treated any worse than they were:
it's just more difficult to move from country A to country B anywhere in the
world for anybody right now (except within the EU/EEA, which largely
reopened). US citizens are not being singled out, and while they're also not
being given preferential treatment, it is hard to imagine they would have been
had this happened anytime in the past, say 50 years ago. The situation is just
largely unprecedented.

It is inaccurate to compare the situation of travellers now and in the past,
when travel was much less common and less affordable, and thus the population
flows were much smaller: this is the first pandemic of the global era, so of
course the restrictions are going to impact more people and be more noticeable
than any similar measures implemented in the past. Arguably it has to be so to
control the spread of the virus.

On a general note, the US passport was never a great choice for people who
mostly live outside the US due to the cumbersome tax regulations one has to
endure as part of being a US citizen but, it can be argued, it could remain so
precisely due to the power the US enjoys to compel other countries to enforce
its laws, as demonstrated with e.g. FATCA [1]. Thus there has always been a
steady outflow of millionaires looking for greener pastures. [2]

Separately, the US passport was also never highly-ranked for people who just
wanted to travel around as visitors: in that category it is easily outclassed
by e.g. Singapore or Japan, which let you visit China or (in the latter case)
India visa-free. [3] Still, that was never the reason for it being so prized:
the US has likely the best career opportunities in the world, so people want
the citizenship and the passport that comes with it to get inside the country,
not to stay away from it and go elsewhere. If they do travel abroad however,
the US passport still generally affords unrivalled consular protection in most
of the world. And nothing really changes in this department just because of
the pandemic.

I'm really surprised to see an article like this from what purportedly aspires
to be the Canadian BBC. It's really quite poorly-researched for such an
alarmist tone.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act)

2\. [https://www.cbsnews.com/media/5-citizens-who-left-the-us-
to-...](https://www.cbsnews.com/media/5-citizens-who-left-the-us-to-avoid-
paying-tax/)

3\.
[https://www.henleypassportindex.com/](https://www.henleypassportindex.com/)

------
jorblumesea
The disconnect between how the world sees the US and how the US sees itself is
astounding.

------
purple_ferret
Can't even get into some neighboring states! So much for the 'union'

~~~
slg
Do you have a source on that? As far as I'm aware that is illegal. States can
require quarantine periods for visitors, but I don't think they can outright
ban travel from US citizens/nationals.

~~~
kube-system
I don't think it is the case anywhere currently, but earlier on in the
pandemic there was at least one place that put up checkpoints and turned away
visitors.

Example: [https://www.obxtoday.com/coronavirus/updated-dare-county-
res...](https://www.obxtoday.com/coronavirus/updated-dare-county-restricts-
visitor-access-to-outer-banks-clarifies-entry-procedure-for-non-resident-
workers/)

~~~
slg
Just because a government did it doesn't mean it is legal. It seems like that
county was quickly sued and had to change its policy.[1][2] I am guessing this
restriction wouldn't hold up in court, but you would actually have to get them
to court to force them to stop. And the bigger the entity and the more people
impacted, the quicker they would end up in court.

[1] -
[https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article241852551.htm...](https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article241852551.html)

[2] -
[https://www.newsobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article2440336...](https://www.newsobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article244033667.html)

~~~
kube-system
Yeah for sure, I was just sharing the example. There's a lot of executive
actions testing the bounds of the law currently.

