
“So, …” What? - wglb
https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2015/04/11/So-What
======
iandanforth
For me the word has no content, it is a way to prime the listener. It's the on
ramp to a sentence. "Get ready, I'm about to say something."

Try this experiment. Start your conversations without any pre-amble for a day.
Just launch right into the topic. Count how many times you are asked to repeat
yourself.

The next day try it by adding "Hey ..." or "So ..." and count again. When I
did this there was a 50% decline in need for repeats. Note: Sample size was
very small.

~~~
DanAndersen
Exactly. It's like a calibration pattern, a network handshake, or a file
header.

------
throwaway183839
It's painfully obvious to me that I have this linguistic quirk, because my
fiancé (who is not a computer geek) interjects with "buttons!" every time I
start a sentence with "So...".

This is annoying, but possibly not as annoying as listening to someone who
starts half their sentences with the same word.

\--

Thinking about it a little more, this habit is not specific to the computer /
programming geek communities. I noticed others doing it around 2009-10, when I
did almost no programming and didn't hang around with programmers. I mostly
hung around with math and physics grad students. I suspect it is more
generally a geek phenomenon, not specifically computer / programming geeks. Or
possibly it's an even wider phenomenon than that - hard to say, since most of
my friends are geeks of one sort or another.

It would be interesting to see if male and female geeks do it with similar
frequencies. My guess would be that male geeks do it more often (based on the
interpretation that starting a sentence with "So..." is a way of saying "I
have given this topic serious thought" and the assumption that this is more
likely something that a male geek will want to indicate than a female geek).

~~~
rndn
I know some non-geek Canadians who use this particle: "So, how was your day?".
There are similar or even equivalent particles in other dialects and
languages, for example "Also .." in German and "Look, .." in Australian
English. However, in my experience, the purpose of that particle is to
introduce a new topic or to indicate a context switch, rather than signaling
that 'I've given the following serious thought'.

~~~
octatoan
It was painful to realise that you'd spent two years of German thinking "
_also_ " meant "also". :(

------
amk_
Beowulf starts with a "So", in the 1999 Seamus Heaney translation. He explains
why in the foreword:

    
    
        'so' operates as an expression that obliterates all
        previous discourse and narrative, and at the same time
        functions as an exclamation calling for immediate
        attention.
    

[https://books.google.com/books?id=mlg7VKOvsZAC&printsec=fron...](https://books.google.com/books?id=mlg7VKOvsZAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=beowulf+seamus+heaney&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TrkqVaSOC478oASw2IL4CQ&ved=0CC8QuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Conventional%20renderings&f=false)

(click 'page' link to expand quoted area)

This is pretty much in-line with Steve Wilson's "Full-start" theory in the
last paragraph.

------
patja
I have a theory that the use of "so..." to prefix a statement serves two
purposes for the speaker: gives them a few more seconds to form their
statement, and it also creates a rhetorical beachhead, allowing them to stake
a claim in the conversational airspace. This is particularly useful in
environments where it can be difficult to get a word in edgewise when others
are dominating the space. Unfortunately it becomes a bad habit used to start
every other sentence.

With that said, I despise it as well, being the adult equivalent of the teen
practice of scattering "like" throughout every conversation. What is even
worse is when it works its way into the written form though, something you
don't see with "like".

~~~
vram22
Though I agree with the reasons you surmise, I also think "so" is used by some
people like chewing gum - as a somewhat meaningless habit that occupies the
time or keeps nervousness at bay. Wild theory here. Also, I am chewing gum as
I write this :) But not nervous.

~~~
vram22
To people who don't agree - you might want to take a look at pluma's comment
in this thread (and the part in it about being nervous):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364377](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364377)

Also, I don't think downvoting people whose opinions you don't agree with, is
a good idea. Rather leave a comment in reply saying why you don't. And yes, I
have read the rationalizations for that (downvoting) behavior, in other HN
threads. But don't agree with it. Smacks of nervousness (again) to me -
nervousness when someone disagrees with your opinion or voices an opinion
different from yours. What's there to be nervous of? Opinions are just that -
opinions.

------
yzzxy

        So. The Spear-Danes in days gone by
        and the kings who ruled them had courage and greatness.
        We have heard of those princes' heroic campaigns.
    

The first word of the first known English document is "so" in this style.

~~~
lobster_johnson
That's the Heaney translation. The original Old English starts this way:

> Hwæt! Wé Gárdena in géardagum

Hwæt has usually been translated as "listen", though it has since evolved into
the modern word "what" and at least one researched thinks it is not an
interjection but an intensifier [1]. In archaic English it might have been
translated as "hark".

[1] [http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-
entertainment/books/news/l...](http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-
entertainment/books/news/listen-beowulf-opening-line-misinterpreted-
for-200-years-8921027.html)

------
nkozyra
I have been working very hard to avoid doing this in the last few years, but
it's hard when it's so pervasive among colleagues and other technical folks.

There was - I believe - a Tesla desert demo video with the engineers that came
out late last year and I had to stop and count the number of sentences that
started with "So," and I think it was 90%+ for a 15 minute video.

It may not drive everyone else nuts the way it does for me, but it's filler
that I feel implies a condescending tone or at minimum a way to gently
increase the perceived validity of the point and expertise of the speaker.

------
p4bl0
I realized reading this that I start many many sentences in French (my native
tongue) with "Bon, " which is a strict equivalent. After a quick look at my
IRC logs, it seems that a lot of my geek friends do the same. It's funny to
see that this cultural trait is not specifically tied to the English language.

~~~
evincarofautumn
I’m an English and French speaker, and I certainly do it in both languages. In
French sometimes it’s even “bon, alors”. I’ve heard in in German with “also”
as well.

~~~
Spearchucker
I'm an English and German speaker and do it in neither. I find it contrived.
There's a lot about language usage today that annoys me, like the new trend of
being excited for something. You might look _forward_ to something, and be
excited _about_ it. I realize that language evolves, so I keep my annoyance to
myself. What I struggle with is the prejudice I reserve for those who
brutalize a language for little else than being conformational, trendy or
contrarian.

~~~
chetanahuja
_" There's a lot about language usage today that annoys me, like the new trend
of being excited for something."_

Dear Sir/Madam. Congratulations on being eligible for your senior citizen
discounts. And why yes, I'm getting off your lawn immediately.

:-)

But yeah, I agree. I am too, how to put it, well past my college years. And
yes, I too find more and more things annoying with passing years.

------
gcv
In classical Latin texts, I remember running into a lot of sentences which
start with "itaque" (which means "so"). The habit hardly started recently.

~~~
mirimir
No. "Itaque" means "and so". "Ita" means "so", and "que" means "and".

And so it goes ;)

------
stan_rogers
It appears to be a "new information marker", which is a feature in quite a
large number of the world's languages. English, despite the efforts of legions
of fifth-grade English teachers, is a natural language, and its grammar
changes, or at least tries new things, through time. Languages that aren't
dead yet do that. We recently had a similar thread about the use of "no",
which has become a sort of redirection/steering indicator.

~~~
vram22
"no" at the end of a sentence, after a comma, to mean "isn't it so?", was
common in Mumbai (Bombay) from many years ago. Interesting that it has started
being used in the States now, which I've noticed on other forums and in
personal interactions too. My guess is that it came into use in Bombay English
via some Indian language, where it is a normal way of speaking.

~~~
chetanahuja
That appended, questioning "No?" at the end of a statement is prevalent all
over India. And yes, it comes from a Hindi construct "Arre, Chal naa yaar"
(literally, "Let's go, No? friend".)

~~~
vram22
Yes, I kind of guessed that idiom might be prevalent in multiple Indian
languages, because I have noticed the same thing with other idioms - they are
there in more than one Indian language.

------
researcher88
Seems related to why I feel compelled to say "ummm" or "uhhh" before
responding to a Subway employee asking me what I want on my sandwich. It just
feels like I am being nicer and not barking out commands.

------
troymc
I've only noticed that I write "So..." at the beginning of some sentences,
when writing a first draft. I delete it, of course, but I suspect it serves a
purpose when speaking: When you're speaking, you need a quick way to divert
others' attention to you. When you're writing, you already have their
attention.

------
yodsanklai
"Geeks like to pre­fix sen­tences, ques­tions and an­swers both, with “So, …”
"

I didn't know it was something specific to geeks. As a non-native English
speaker, I sometimes start my sentences with "so" (not sure where i picked
this, maybe from literal translation of French "donc").

~~~
jordanpg
The author isn't writing about any prefixing of the word "so." He's writing
about the use that implies "what I'm about to say is really complicated and
few understand it but me, but I'm going to take my best shot at breaking it
down for you."

It's accompanied by a certain tone, a slight uptick in tone, followed by a
momentary hesitation.

~~~
defen
Indeed. _That_ usage of "so" is very different from (imagine a person telling
a story) "So I was walking in the park the other day...", in which case the
"so" is said very quickly and almost blends into the next word (unstressed
"so" followed by stressed next syllable - subconsciously converting into
iambic meter, maybe?).

------
mmahemoff
It comes across as aloof and detached, like the speaker is about to rattle off
their pre-rehearsed response.

"So, I didn't really listen to your specific question and I don't really care
about why you're asking it, and here's my cut and paste answer to this
question ..."

------
alex-g
Seamus Heaney began his translation of Beowulf with "So", rendering the Old
English "Hwaet" in a more natural way than the usual archaic "Listen!", "Lo!",
"Hark!" kind of thing. In the introductory note, he explains: "'so' operates
as an expression that obliterates all previous discourse and narrative, and at
the same time functions as an exclamation calling for immediate attention."
Far from being a chatty colloquialism, it is a solemn, weighty kind of "so"
for Heaney.

------
malandrew
Is possible that using "So, ..." as a "full start" is a defensive measure
against being interrupted?

If I end a sentence and immediately tack on "So, ..." as I gather my next
thoughts and prepare them for utterance, I'm signaling that I've got more to
say to everyone who might interpret a "full stop" as an opportunity to
interject with their own thoughts or a rebuttal.

~~~
malandrew
Too late to edit. I meant "Is [it] possible ..."

------
naiyt
For the last couple years I've consciously tried to remove "so" from writing
as much as I can. It rarely seems to add anything to what I'm trying to say.
Avoiding it in speech, though, has been a bit more difficult.

------
monochromatic
Harmless space-filler when spoken; annoying affectation when written.

------
fwn
Maybe on topic: ~ two month ago, /r/TheoryOfReddit/ had a thread about the
effects of using "So" to introduce headlines:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheoryOfReddit/comments/2tuq64/redd...](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheoryOfReddit/comments/2tuq64/reddit_submissions_which_start_with_a_rhetorical/)

------
bshimmin
I use "So..." on client calls an awful lot, usually to mean something like "I
think we've talked enough about this now and I'm starting to find it boring",
often followed by "just to recap..." and a précis of what we've decided, and
finally an introduction to the next topic.

I haven't noticed anyone being irritated by it yet!

------
serve_yay
I find this quite annoying. Not everyone around me does it, but a whole lot of
them do. It has a tone of condescension in my opinion.

------
UhUhUhUh
I take it as the expression of a permanent quest for logic just hung up in the
air "so" someone, including myself possibly picks it up. The meaning seems to
be more "so that" than "that said, how's your day been". Or "if this is
correct, then this means that..." rather than " OK, got it, what else?"

------
frou_dh
Harry Shearer of The Simpsons has a recurring segment on his radio show where
he collects clips of people incapable of answering questions without "So, "
couching.

In my book it's even less defensible in writing than in speech. You see it in
countless reddit submission titles that aren't a response to or continuation
from anything.

------
overgard
If you're into this line of thought, you might also enjoy "Well, actually..."
(
[http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html](http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html)
).

------
defen
I see a lot of speculation about what causes this, but if it is actually
serving some sort of important linguistic purpose we would expect it to
generalize beyond the English language, right? Do French geeks start their
sentences with "Si, ..." (or equivalent)?

~~~
nothrabannosir
Not sure how reliable this self-evaluation is, but I do imagine I'm starting
quite some sentences with "alors," or "bon,".

~~~
defen
Interesting, another French speaker just said the same thing:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364161](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364161)

------
wongarsu
I think "So, ..." is mostly equivalent to "Well, ...". Both can be used as
filler words or for signalling. It's just that in our community "So" is much
more common.

~~~
Touche
"So..." also gives you a few precious moments to turn your thoughts into words
that the person you're talking to will understand.

~~~
ryandrake
Ideally, you have already finished this step before opening your mouth.

------
sixQuarks
Another "linguistic quirk" I've noticed among tech people is the use of the
word 'right', used in the same way urban culture says "know what I'm saying".

------
jordanpg
This is the geek equivalent of corporate buzzwords. Lots of communities do
this and it comes and goes in fads.

Listen to political commentators. For them, the trendy thing is to start
sentences with "Look,..." For tech people giving talks on stages, it's looking
and sounding as much like Steve Jobs as possible. Pilots, Chuck Yeager. In hip
hop, it's "Son,..."

The unifying theme and the reason these things feel obnoxious is that they all
attempt to put the speaker in an implicit position of superiority. It's
unoriginal, trite, and boring. It's like using lots of swear words. It's
what's happens when writers don't venture outside insular communities.

------
jacquesm
It's the real life equivalent of a synchronization header.

~~~
vram22
Cool analogy. Now I'm trying to think what HTTP header it could be
(considered) the equivalent of, but not getting it ...

~~~
jacquesm
HTTP runs over TCP, so SYN?

~~~
vram22
Good one.

------
geophile
I attended a live performance of The Moth a few days ago. Of the five
storytellers, four started their stories with "So, ...". It isn't just us
geeks.

------
morgante
Is this a real phenomenon? I've never noticed it in my own speech patterns or
those of my colleagues.

~~~
namenotrequired
I guess you're probably going to notice it a lot over the next week. If not...
report back :)

------
axus
This doesn't seem bad to me. Ending a sentence with ", so..." does.

------
thinkingkong
Ideally...

------
js2
So, I submitted this year's ago, but sadly it didn't get picked up:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2231932](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2231932)

:-)

