
Britain expels Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy - LuisOrtiz
http://thehill.com/policy/international/378317-britain-expels-russian-diplomats-suspends-high-level-contacts-over
======
gtrubetskoy
There is a book by one of the people who worked on the "novichok" agents which
describes in detail the story behind and the chemicals themselves, including
the exact formulas and some synthesis details.

[https://www.amazon.com/State-Secrets-Insiders-Chronicle-
Chem...](https://www.amazon.com/State-Secrets-Insiders-Chronicle-
Chemical/dp/1432725661)

~~~
dharma1
It doesn't sound like something non-state actors could manufacture easily.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9OOLBN0j7c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9OOLBN0j7c)

Makes me wonder what kind of people have devoted their lives to developing
nerve toxins like this. Horrible.

------
alva
Two things that greatly concern me.

1\. President Trumps response (and I am not a hardcore anti-Trumper) has been
very weak. Many here are extremely disappointed.

2\. The leader of the opposition is not supporting the government position and
is propagating doubt far harder than is appropriate. There should always be
some doubt in these situations but to immediately suggest this is a plot to
frame Russia is something else. Rumours of mutiny are spreading and the
majority of the Labour party directly and indirectly criticised his position
during session.

Highly concerning situation. I truly hope Trump comes out with much stronger
language in support of what we consider a top ally.

~~~
cmurf
He did today by congratulating Putin for his election victory. Thanking a
dictator for sham elections is quite strong. But then Trump is always
congratulating dictators while criticizing allies.

------
whb07
Why is it that ex-Russian oligarchs/kgb/persona-non-grata who end up being
killed are mostly in exile in the UK? While I know there is a big community,
you're as far as possible while still being in Europe, why not just move to
the US or the Caribbean or something?

There are other suitable parts of the world to be exiled to and maybe the US
would be a safer spot for you to enjoy your wealth while being relatively more
'safe'. Granted, if the FSB(really the KGB) want you killed it doesn't matter
where but UK seems like an easier opponent to push away than the troubles that
might rise from US gov.

~~~
orf
The US is pretty close to Russia as well, don't forget. Some parts neighbor
it.

I'd posit that the UK is a lot safer (less guns, murder etc). I wouldn't rate
the Caribbean equivalent of MI5 to protect you.

~~~
whb07
I don't think for a second that if you're in exile because you're on Putin's
bad side that you're ever thinking "oh boy should I walk down this road? I
know theres hoodlums always messing around it". You're always thinking "Oh
snap, did that guy look Russian? When will Putin send for me here? Am I safe?"

So in short, idk what 'less guns, murder' have to deal with the KGB. Btw, i
don't think getting guns in the UK is an issue for KGB agents.

------
OrganicMSG
Another Russian exile, Nikolai Glushkov, died this morning in London.

It could just be a massive coincidence, however there do seem to be a lot of
coincidences to write off if we are to assume that the trail of dead Russians
does not lead to Russia.

~~~
hugh4life
So they do another hit after another high profile hit? Why?

I see far more motive to disrupt Russian elections and the Russian world cup
than I see motive for taking out two Russian exiles who have been out of the
country for over a decade.

~~~
myth_drannon
This guy was in Russian jail, they had enough time to hang or poison him.

~~~
ceejayoz
That doesn't send the same "we can get you anywhere" message, though.

~~~
willvarfar
A Putin documentary was recently released [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-43365800](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43365800)

It was presumably recorded just before the spy was poisoned.

In the documentary, Putin says he can forgive most things, but never forgive
betrayal. He talks about it in a context of his cabinet, but he is also an ex-
KGB agent and he was similiarly against Snowden (although he gave sanctuary
for geopolitical purposes).

It is quite plausible that the 'we will get you if you betray us' is a message
to Russians who might have wavering loyalties.

------
aleyan
Russian gangsters and other ne'er-do-wells of the 90s still carry old
grievances and will continue murdering each other until they are all gone.
Since Britain provided the richest of them with a playground, it is not
shocking that they are continuing with their modus operandi on a smaller scale
there.

As for Skripal, he allegedly blew the cover of 300 Russian agents. That is a
lot of people with a personal motive. Perhaps an investigation is in order
before Britain and Russia tear their relationship apart over this.

~~~
davidw
> That is a lot of people with a personal motive

How many of them have access to nasty chemical weapons? Gangster types manage
to settle scores all the time with guns, knives or whatever.

~~~
aleyan
Well, the 300 were Russian agents in 1990s. Many of them are probably still
are and are better connected than they were back then. So probably a lot?

------
Dowwie
If you were a decision maker in Russia, why use a chemical so rare that
anywhere in the world it appears would directly implicate you, and also kills
a subject quickly? Revenge at a level like this-- killing a high ranking KGB
informant under UK protection -- would be slow and painful. It would be done
using methods that weren't branded Made In Russia into the hides of the
victims.

This entire story smells of conspiracy.

~~~
cmurf
Your response is worse than tinfoil hat territory: ignorance of the history of
Russia, Soviet Union, FSB and KGB, and Cold War; and a preference for beliefs
over the available facts, as a result of cognitive dissonance.

RT the very same week said this is what happens to people who are traitors to
Russia, count on it. Have you watched any of the recent interviews with Putin
about this? He laughs when asked, and says he doesn't care while also saying
the people involved weren't government people. This is a very clear message,
yes we did it and so what? What are you going to do? Huh? What are you going
to do? Exactly. Nothing.

And that has in fact been UK policy for over a dozen suspected hits.
[https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-
blood-1...](https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-
blood-14-suspected-hits-on-british-soil?utm_term=.rwmNEb0n1e#.qx4kKev6VP)

Russia is risking the necessity of a disproportionate response, an unfair
response, just like any playground bully. It's not enough to just punch them
back. You have to wail on them, break the nose, make them bleed, and most
importantly? Embarrass them. Only then do they stop.

------
molszanski
I just don't get it.

a) Why would Russia do that?

b) Why would they do that in a way that would finger point the blame on them?

~~~
gnode
The most obvious reason I can think of to kill defectors with a signature
poison (like nerve agents or Polonium-210) is to send a message to anyone
thinking of defecting.

I wonder if Russia has renewed interest in doing this, because of their recent
antics, and politically dangerous knowledge their agents may now have.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Hmm. I wonder if there were some recent defections that we haven't heard
about?

------
amriksohata
Russia could have killed this man years ago when he was in their custody, they
instead used him for a spy swap and even then took years before deciding to
kill him. There are one of two things going on, Russia is trying to be a
nusiance in the same way by flying jets near Britain's airspace. It can't go
to full scale war because both are nuclear powers, but wants to show people
not to mess with it. The way MI5 works is completely different, something will
happen in Russia and no one will know it's them that retaliated. I'm surprised
people haven't capitalised on grilling Corbyn on if he thinks nuclear
disarmament is still a good idea.

------
fenk85
This is what is going to happen

Russia will blame everyone and use the usual whataboutism arguments, we
already had Russian ambassador on CNN yesterday trying to float conspiracy
theory that US done it because Russia destroyed all their chemical weapons and
US has not (i kid you not)

Sanctions will be announced by western countries, but not implemented
(whatever dirt they have on Trump must be good)

Everyone will forget and move on

Few years later proof will be found, but by that stage no one will care, case
in hand Russian antiaircraft technology "falling" into rebel hands and
shooting down a passenger plane a few years ago.

~~~
scottmf
Trump may be refusing to enact new sanctions (despite passing with bipartisan
support) for some “unknown” reason, but the EU doesn’t need his support to
implement any new sanctions.

------
lowry
Sending off diplomats won't hurt Putin as much as sending off McMafia style
oligarchs. Unfortunately UK has no guts to do it.

~~~
nwah1
Someone's gotta keep those London real estate values high. It's a win-win for
UK landowning elites and foreign money launderers alike.

~~~
donquichotte
[EDIT: changed my mind about posting this, sorry]

~~~
acct1771
That's because the street cops don't have firearms.

------
apo
_British intelligence have labeled the poison as “military grade” and “of a
type developed in Russia.”_

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the alleged attack was carried out by
Russia.

Novichok agents were developed in the 1970s, have been the topic of many
publications, and the simple and widely-known chemical structures of any
number of them could be made by chemists from any country or group willing to
take the risk to make them.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent)

If Britain is intent on dragging NATO into this, as it seems like it might be,
there had better be far more compelling evidence of Russia's involvement than
the weak drivel published to date.

[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/nerve-
agent-...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/nerve-agent-attack-
clearly-came-from-russia-says-us-rex-tillerson)

Remember yellowcake?

~~~
ceejayoz
Russia has motive, means, and opportunity. It's not an _insane_ conclusion to
draw, and it's entirely possible the decision to blame them is based on non-
public information like travel records, surveillance data, etc.

~~~
apo
_Russia has motive, means, and opportunity._

So do many other groups.

 _... it 's entirely possible the decision to blame them is based on non-
public information like travel records, surveillance data, etc._

Based on the information released to date, it's also possible that the
decision is a naked attempt to manipulate the public.

I'd like to think that people would have become more skeptical of their
government's use of "intelligence." Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case.

~~~
ceejayoz
> So do many other groups.

Most of them aren't doing this, though.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/09/russian-
state-...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/09/russian-state-tv-
warns-traitors-not-to-settle-in-england)

> Russian state television has warned “traitors” and Kremlin critics that they
> should not settle in England because of an increased risk of dying in
> mysterious circumstances.

------
hugh4life
I'll be frank, this whole situation seems really fishy... I don't think Russia
had anything to do with this. Not with the elections and world cup within
months. It makes zero sense whatsoever. But I also don't feel sorry for them
because their past shady and thuggish behavior makes it easy for them to be
framed for such acts.

~~~
ictoan
What is it that makes this fishy to you? Why do you think Russia is not
responsible? Who else would've done this? Did someone just magically have a
rare nerve agent made in Russia, brought it to UK and sprayed it on an ex-
Russian spy? Gosh, what a freak accident! Or if someone did it on purpose then
what is his intention? Why would someone go out of his way to frame Russia?
What is the goal? Purpose? Or maybe... just maybe... it is just Russia being
Russia and doing shady Soviet style operations.

~~~
chopin
A nerve agent made in Russia - that's what we are told. I would believe this
only if confirmed by a truly independent third party.

~~~
ictoan
So you're saying the U.K. lied and Russia is telling the truth? Lol, how do I
know Russia is being truthful? I would believe this only if confirmed by a
truly independent Russian insider. Oh wait, there aren't any because Putin
assassinated them all!

~~~
chopin
I don't believe any government. I simply don't know whom gto believe.

I vividly remember the US presenting "evidence" in the UN to start the war in
Iraq. None of the allegations held water.

How about holding these affairs to the same standard as crminal trials? Means,
having a verifiable chain of custody, presenting the evidence to public
scrutiny and having each side challenging the evidence.

------
jingleheimer
On the face of it this looks like a USS Liberty style false flag. It would
make sense if, once again, Israel is facing enemies on its doorstep and is
looking draw others into the conflict to come to their defence.

The novichok agents are not that hard to make and many labs around the world
have the capability and the research licences to make it. The factors tying
them to Russia would be trace chemicals, similar to how you can trace gold.
It'll be easy to lie about the origin so long as no-one else has access to the
chemicals to test them.

Theresa May is a very weak position politically. The industrial size gang rape
cover ups that came out recently didn't help. The ongoing Brexit negotiation
failures are not helping. It's only a matter of time before she's replaced.
Picking a fight with Russia makes her look stronger. If you want another
laugh, consider that the UK thinks it has a 'special relationship' with the US
which will allow them to get a favourable trading deal afterwards.

Until I see more evidence, e.g. play by play surveillance, I will remain
unconvinced.

