
My programmer is a dick...  - richardjortega
I don't know how to approach this situation so I'll detail my situation. We started a startup conceptually since 1 year ago, went full force in developing in May, and are now about to get clients/ship product.<p>My partner and I are former web designers/developers who can't do web application programming but can sell ice to an eskimo and have great marketing/business networking experience. We put both of our life savings to get front-end development done (are main product is a dashboard tool). Our other (kinda founder) who has been with us since the beginning does the back-end programming, without him it would've been hard. We are paying him about $25/hr below his market pay, but he went to college with me so he is helping with discount. The backend shouldn't be more than about 150 hours of true programming (not including research time).<p>Here is the situation. The programmer is a dick. He has a house and baby so we try to cut slack, but he keeps on missing deadlines. He has almost no communication skills when we want to meet and work, he doesn't show passion like a founder. We wanted him to come on board as a full equity stake founder, but we've learned to him this is just a project and that's it. We haven't had that come to Jesus talk yet, but we're afraid it may leave us in a bad spot. He's the only one familiar with the backend. It's causing us to lose clients and not gain momentum, not including how our advisors/investors are eyeing us.<p>Please any advice will help. We would love to find a new programmer founder, but how do we make the next steps in a crucial time like raising funding? Also please note as just a key employee we were going to give him 3-5% equity in the company.
======
jimrandomh
> Our other (kinda founder) who has been with us since the beginning does the
> back-end programming, without him it would've been hard. We are paying him
> about $25/hr below his market pay, but he went to college with me so he is
> helping with discount. The backend shouldn't be more than about 150 hours of
> true programming (not including research time). > > Here is the situation.
> The programmer is a dick. He has a house and baby so we try to cut slack,
> but he keeps on missing deadlines. He has almost no communication skills
> when we want to meet and work, he doesn't show passion like a founder.

I count six red flags. You're paying below market rate; your programmer is a
college friend who probably agreed to take the job as a favor; you've given a
time estimate which is probably wrong; you excluded "research time" from the
time estimate when you clearly shouldn't have; and you show obvious disrespect
and no gratitude.

And you wonder why you aren't getting his best work?

~~~
richardjortega
Why assume my time estimate is wrong? I asked him for the estimate of hours.
He doesn't include "research" time, I told him I'd pay for that time - he
doesn't think it should be counted. In previous projects we've worked on, he
has always underbilled we wanted to make sure that didn't happen this time.

I managed our frontend dev team and I personally estimated their hours (since
I've managed software teams before) and got only 10-20 hours over.

I disrespect him because he started disrespecting me. Why assume the non-tech
founder is always the bad guy?

One email for instance - "We have our life savings in this. This one feature
update has taken over three weeks, please give us an ETA. Can another
developer assist?" Answer: "Guilt doesn't work... I won't be able to see this
until Friday. Sure another dev can take a whack at it, I'll add him to repo"
(Email sent last Tuesday).

~~~
coffee
"I disrespect him because he started disrespecting me."

That is very immature.

"Why assume the non-tech founder is always the bad guy?"

Because in most cases this is true. And when you write a post titled "My
programmer is a dick..." what do you think people are going to assume?

You demonstrate a lack of maturity and understanding of how to successfully
engage with others. You came here asking for advice, don't be so defensive.

~~~
richardjortega
I debated responding to you. But I will, because I'm trying to truly resolve
this situation with my dev.

I don't know the first thing about you and I won't assume. I'm asking for
comments on what to do next. Sorry if I called a "person" a dick, and sorry if
that person happened to be a fellow "programmer".

Would you have replied to this post had I posted "I'm having difficulty with
my programmer meeting deadlines"

------
brudgers
> _"Also please note as just a key employee we were going to give him 3-5%
> equity in the company."_

A key employee who is putting $50,000+/year into your company is getting 3-5%?

Are you really worth $1million to $1.5 million after a year and will you be
worth twice that next year...just so he breaks even (assuming he is only
working 2000 hours a year)?

Sorry, but if you are losing clients then you and your cofounder aren't
selling coal in Newcastle, and the fact that the programmer isn't welcome in
the office and is being blamed for all the problems raises a question about
who is actually a dick.

~~~
richardjortega
A key employee as in he is putting about 1-5 hours of coding per week but we
needed a good backend dev and he was the best I knew. He's a college friend
and I don't know how best to deal with the situation of him not communicating.

I came to ask this question on HN because I wanted devs opinions, I know non-
tech founders get bad reps here - and I understand if you want to attach that
bias to me.

I put my life savings into this project, I didn't ask for favors. He makes us
feel uncomfortable in our office, and cancels everytime I ask him to come in.
We only work on Saturday/weeknights, because I have to have a job to pay for
this startup endeavor.

I don't assume we are worth $1 million or anything. I don't mean to take a
defense stance, but I thought giving a portion of the founders equity made
sense since he was taking a pay cut from normal hours. If he would've worked
for free (like we are) he would've got founder's equity, but we still need a
frontend dev which we had to pay for because he frankly said "I can do it, but
I don't want to".

~~~
brudgers
An hourly gig which requires one to five hours a week is Chinese water torture
- just enough to be a pain in the ass, not enough to make any real money.

And considering it's being done at less than market rate - all it really
amounts to is 1-5 hours of being pissed off on the cheap.

Seriously, with that little work, how often do you really need to meet face to
face?

And while I understand the economics of moonlighting for a startup, it's a two
way street and an unwillingness to take time off from your day job for a
meeting over lunch suggests some lack of commitment on your part - i.e. you
aren't willing to burn a few hours of leave from your day job, but are willing
to ask the programmer to invest more time at below market rate around your
convenience.

BTW, unless one person retains a controlling interest, if you are going to
provide equity, 3-5% will give a third person equal control of the company to
the two founders.

~~~
richardjortega
Just wanted to say brudgers, thank you so much for the "Chinese water torture"
analogy. It made a ton of sense and I'll be meeting with my programmers to get
things realigned from an expectation and compensation standpoint.

------
coffee
This is pathetic...

"...can sell ice to an eskimo..."

But can't sell a programmer, and college friend, on the idea of not being a
"dick" to them? Sounds like the two founders have zero skill but do have HUGE
egos.

They're paying him $25/hour below market rate, he's got a house and family,
they have yet to provide him with any equity in the company after he's worked
100 hours on the project, they refer to him as a "kinda founder" and they're
getting a special discount because they're college chums.

Are you sure the programmer is the one being the dick?

~~~
kamaal
Actually one of the things I discovered while working with someone
close/relative. Firstly they assume that you sort of come for a cheap price
and won't have qualms or complains working for peanuts.

Secondly they assume you are some sort easy punchbag to offload all their
anger in case something goes wrong for which you aren't even remotely
responsible. Somehow its assumed since you are close to them you won't mind
taking all that.

Part of what really pisses me off is, they feel its OK to make profit out of
your work. But consider it some sort of a selfish action from your end when
you expect to get paid for the work you do. I don't mind doing extra work for
free sometimes. But when that sort of becomes a norm and you are expected to
be the sacrificial goat for their profit, you must just politely call it
quits.

These days you can earn a lot of money working for yourself. No point in doing
donkey work for others profit while you are eating grass yourself.

------
abbasmehdi
Take 2 weeks off, learn it yourself. It is not _that_ hard! Not sure why
people put this shit on the pedestal so much.

Anyway, lean it yourself, put it out there, make some money, hire at market
rate. If you cannot do that then you are in the wrong business.

You make an extremely weak CEO by being this reliant on a dev.

~~~
richardjortega
Yeah, that's a good point. Time to brush up on my coding skills. Do you think
you can sell and code in a startup and be great at both?

~~~
abbasmehdi
Fuck yes. It actually makes you even better as both, a programmer and a sales
person.

Makes you a better salesperson becuase you know your product knowledge goes
much through the roof, you know what is and isn't possible, and you can
estimate how long things take to build and what it would cost to build them.
(You are actually useful).

Makes you a btter coder because it is you who is married to the customer, so
nothing is lost in translation.

------
JoeCortopassi
Better to do the right thing, than the wrong thing 'righter'.

If he isn't meeting your needs, you should let him go. But keep this in mind:
He took a $25 an hour pay cut to be with you guys, and from what it sounds
like, has no equity in the company. How motivated would you be?

~~~
richardjortega
We want him to join us in an incubator/accelerator but we're not sure about
his passion or drive. Should we continue to bare with him so that after an
accelerator we go our separate ways?

Yes, you have a point in how motivated would I be in his shoes... so then how
much equity is fair for getting paid to work but transitioning to founder? My
partner and I have not taken any salary/pay (even from paying clients), we
actually put more of our money in to bootstrap. Every ounce of additional cash
I have goes there, and the sense of urgency from him isn't addressed.

Or is it too late already? I'd love for him to be a founder, but I don't want
to hand over equity to a person who is going to make it uncomfortable to work
with in the office. We actually prefer him to work from his home office (as
does he) so we don't have to be around from him.

Then he'll do random things like switch from us buying him lunch, to buying us
lunch - then we're like WTF?

I feel like I'm venting - I'm sorry. I'm just at the point that I would like
to see the startup move to the next step...

Thank you for your response!

~~~
brandoncordell
Is he really an asshole to you guys personally, or are you calling him an
asshole because he is missing deadlines? I've worked with a bunch of asshole
programmers, they all usually have a god complex and think they are the best
in the field regardless of what happens.

It's hard for a programmer to stay motivated in the long run when things pop
in his head like "I get paid $25/hr less than I could get somewhere else, shit
this company may not even survive."

It's not too late, but honestly you need to step up and be a boss. You can't
let your employee continue to act this way for multiple reasons. First, if
this isn't/wasn't his normal work ethic, something has changed. You need to
act like a leader and just ask him. If you really want him to be a founder,
and he needs something that isn't asking for the world than give it to him! It
sounds like you owe a lot of your projects current state to him. If he's
worked like this all along, and you haven't said anything than that is your
problem and you need to deal with it. A poor employee like that can bring a
company down if you just like it sit and fester.

As far as he's the "only one that knows the backend", any programmer that's
proficient in the language of your application can get in there and get to
work. It may take a little bit of time to get used to your current programmers
style and quirks, but it shouldn't be an issue.

It really boils down to the fact you need to sit him down and talk to him. Be
up front and honest, voice your concerns. If there are troubles in his life,
he'll let you know and you can work with him. If you get attitude and apathy
from him than figure out IF you can even make him happy. If so, try. If you
can't than it really sounds like you need to find another programmer. Not
every programmer has the passion of a founder, especially if there is a family
at home that isn't being taken care of as much as they could be.

Good luck with your situation. I hope you get it resolved cleanly.

\- Brandon

~~~
richardjortega
Thanks Brandon, I'd love for him to just be a bit more social and give us
updates. I'd like for him to be a partner and turn this around.

------
huhtenberg
It is really simple.

> We are paying him about $25/hr below his market pay.

You get what you pay for.

> he went to college with me so he is helping with discount

That's a very poor excuse for not paying a market rate. _You_ got a better end
of a deal and you are complaining. How about you look at the whole situation
from his end and evaluate who comes out as a dick?

------
jtchang
A lot of my friends will commonly pass me freelance gigs. Sometimes though a
friend is close enough I will cut them some slack on my hourly rate though it
is usually all or nothing. Either I charge full price or I donate my time.

My advice is to sit down and ask what he wants. Does he want out of the
project? More money? Does he feel disrespected?

I'm a developer. I miss deadlines because either I underestimated the time
required or something else beyond my control came up. If the code is turning
out harder than required then figure out what piece of it is the problem.

The fact that you are losing clients and not gaining momentum is something you
have to eat. It sucks but part of it is just getting over this hump.

~~~
richardjortega
jtchang, thanks. I appreciate your comment and honesty on why deadlines can be
missed. It was also on me not defining expectations and he may feel we'll just
profit off his work and pay him peanuts. I really want him as an equal founder
and would love for him to want it as bad as us.

------
richardjortega
I love all the opinions and please, hearing from devs and founders alike is
amazing. I'd like to some comments that I didn't detail:

1) Total hours dev worked so far: 100, hours likely left 50-100. 2) Partner
and I invested $30k so far 3) We have experience in software team management
so we had a pretty good idea of what we needed from a backend dev for phase 1.
4) He is not full-time or even part-time, more like contractual basis as per
his convenience. 5) We always ask for his input/suggestions, but doesn't
really show it. 6) We work on Saturdays/weeknights, because my partner and I
have to get money to put into the startup (and pay our devs). 7) Not expecting
free work or sympathy, just expecting fair work at a fair price. 8) Dev has
stated that once we get funding he'll be "more into the project" 9) Everyone
has vesting options, so he'll still get something if we part ways.

I know non-tech founders get bad reps on HN and I understand each dev likely
has a horror story that has developed a bias that we ask for too much in
return for too little - I can't change that about HN.

I'm merely asking for two questions: 1) What would you do in my shoes? 2) How
do you add another key employee/founder if we transition? As in, you've put
all this time it's hard to gives the keys to the castle to a newcomer.

~~~
cbs
_I've asked only 1-5 hours per week from this individual._

You asked for minimal effort; you're getting minimal effort. He probably is
putting in at least that much effort, its just a really, really slow pace.

 _Dev has stated that once we get funding he'll be "more into the project"_

Well, yeah. You only asked for 5 hrs a week, and hes working at a discount
because you're friends. You're basically screaming you're not serious about
this project and that you think it has no future. You haven't given him any
reason to invest at all in this project. When funding comes in, it will show
him that there is something serious worth getting involved in.

 _I feel the only way I can tell he is working is that the Github repo is
updated._

Hes not communicating as much as you'd like? Then why don't you start
initiating the communication? You don't have to hammer him about status
reports, but bring him in the loop on your discussions, then you'll know what
hes doing, and will help show him you're serious about your startup too. If
you are doing that already, then start hammering him for status updates.

 _What would you do in my shoes?_

Commit to bringing him on for more hours, or hire another programmer. Either
in addition to him, or to replace him, but if you want your project to go
anywhere you should be putting at least a 40hr week into your backend.

------
j45
You need to get organized immediately, new programmers or not. How I organize
any messy/late project I've inherited successfully.

Again, 6-10 project's I've inherited from incompetent/sociopath devs and made
into lifelong customers who I like working with. This works.

He needs some structure and routine and this will provide enough of it. He
needs some consequence that while they're might not be another option besides
him, there is a track record for him to keep and maintain. Don't threaten, ask
him what he gets mixed up about a deadline being a deadline and how he can
adjust his estimates.

1) Register for the free version of fogbugz

2) Put in each issue (one issue per case number/email)

3) Rank them from 1 (raging fire) to 7 (dont forget.. one day). Each ranking
number is kind of how many weeks you need it in (realistically), or in how
many weeks it will be completed. Ideally nothing should ever be a Priority 1
or 2. :)

4) Have individual discussions on each case, in each case, via email. This is
the knowledge transfer from him into a central system should you add/change
developers.

5) when you have enough information on each, rank where each is at. Analysis
(what to do), Design (how to do it), Plan (who will do it when), Implement,
Test, Launch, Support (bugs/wty)

6) If you can do #5 you can track everything anturally. Only communicate in
Fogbugz. if it's not there, you can say everything needs to be touched on
regularly.

7) Hook fogbugz up to your source code manager so each case can have the
commits of each file tied to it an you start building a history of what's
happening.

If you need help figuring it out I might be able to lend you a hand off-line.

------
chris_dcosta
OK sounds like hell, but your programmer is probably not a dick, he's probably
got other stuff on his mind and I don't just mean the family.

As founders you're no doubt driven people, it's what it takes, but you can't
expect everyone to share your vision, or be able to give up their time or
commit their future for something they didn't invent - even if it starts to
take off - simply because it isn't their idea no matter what the incentives.

That said, perhaps what you are looking for is someone who fires on all
pistons, and surely you can spot that in the recruitment process. The twinkle
in their eye, the energy, whatever it is there'll be a clue.

Also have you tried breaking down the tasks into smaller tasks, maybe the
sheer size of the project has overwhelmed him. That way you get to keep a good
handle on progress and can easily switch to someone else if things go wrong.

Talking of which, you'll be surprised how many good programmers can pick up
the ball and run with it, so don't feel tied to this one guy just because he
has all the knowledge.

~~~
richardjortega
"The twinkle in their eye" I think that is exactly right and I can't expect
him to share the vision.

I feel the only way I can tell he is working is that the Github repo is
updated. He's an amazing programmer and back in college we were good friends
(maybe associates), he has a tendency to have "short" responses which we
understand.

I think I am looking for a "firing on all pistons" type of programmer.

~~~
chris_dcosta
I think if it's this easy to find critical points about him, then you ought to
ask yourself why you should be continuing.

You might be able to end the relationship now, and stay as friends, rather
than prolong it and fall out.

Always a good policy I find.

------
leejw00t354
I personally hate developing when I don't have much control over the project
or when I don't see any return. Maybe you should see if he is happy with how
the project is going. Does he agree with the decisions being made so far?

Don't be too controlling over his work either. Ask him what he thinks he needs
to be working on and let him do it, let him come up with the solutions to
problems. I hate it when I am told, 'work on this', then when I finish it I'm
told, 'no make it more like this'. Most the time I know more about what is
needed so just let me do my job. If you have a suggestion fine but make sure
it's just a suggestion.

If you can't resolve the issue you should probably find another programmer.
Try to find one who is passionate and really wants to work with you on this
project. You're just going to be wasting your money and time otherwise.

------
harold
Some possible reasons a developer might think of it as a project and not as a
founder:

1\. Not enough equity, or there is a promise of equity but no sense of
commitment

2\. No voice. Feedback and suggestions ignored

3\. Possibly unreasonable expectations from management. How do you know it
should only take 150 hours? See item 2.

4\. Developer might not have confidence in management

Or, it's possible that the developer really is the wrong person for your
startup. I would suggest some introspection before the "Come to Jesus"
meeting. Maybe you can turn this around. Give the dev a chance to speak
his/her mind and be open to what they have to say. Make your expectations
clear, set a short term goal (x, y and z need to be done by Friday) that you
both can agree on. If that milestone is met, great. If not, you have your
answer and can move on knowing you did your part in good faith.

------
richardjortega
There are tons of posts on HN - I used "dick" just to grab attention and get
responses. Did not mean any disrespect by it either. Last time I posted a
thread that said something mild in title I got no responses.

I'm not referring to ALL programmers as dicks, I've just practically had it
with him and he used to be a friend.

The most insightful opinion was that low hours per week = low motivation.

I'm being as honest and candid as possible. Sure there is emotion in this,
this is our startup. I didn't have the money to bring him on full time and I
don't think he would've worked for free either (or contribute funds needed for
frontend dev).

~~~
freemarketteddy
> I used "dick" just to grab attention and get responses.

I am sure you know now but that was a bad move lol!.

------
alexwolfe
Have you tried looking for another programmer? You can teach a lot of things
in life but not passion and personality. If he lacks both of those fundamental
traits (not skills), you should probably look for someone else.

Right now I wouldn't have a come to Jesus talk with your programmer, instead
accept who he is. He is not going to change so make plans with that in mind.
You can probably still launch and do what you need just look for someone else
in the mean time.

~~~
richardjortega
alexwolfe, thank you. I don't want to leave him behind if we get funded, but i
do need that passion and more compatible personality. Would you keep him on or
hire back later?

I'm also worried if the system would fall apart? Can another developer
relatively easy step in and learn the code...

------
rayhano
If you want more commitment, you need to show more money/equity. Simples

Everything is relative. Food tastes better when it is cheaper. Work is more
fun when you get paid more.

------
bigwally
>The backend shouldn't be more than about 150 hours of true programming...

Someone who can't program knows how many hours it takes.

I can't wait for opportunity to do half the work and get 3-5%, where do I sigh
up?

~~~
richardjortega
I wrote the title so I could get programmers to help me understand. I used to
program years ago and I respect programmers and understand they are the
lifeblood to any project.

I've asked only 1-5 hours per week from this individual. I've managed our
frontend dev from an outsourced team in Poland and based on my same "can't
program knows how many hours it takes" effectively hit the deadline/hours
budget with only about 10-20 hours over.

It's not half the work. At the end of the day I have to sell it. In order to
put more features and offer more we need to sell it. We need clients,
programmers don't care about that. Which I understand, why should they it's
not their job.

I wanted to offer equal equity the same as my partner and I, but due to
personality differences I don't believe we can. My partner and I invested $30k
into the startup including paying him on a contractual basis, how do you give
someone equal equity after this?

~~~
pasbesoin
With that low a rate of engagement, depending upon the topic material I'd be
concerned with the amount of time it will take even a very competent developer
to refresh their memory and get back "into the zone" on this particular
product.

Sometimes, it's easier to have _more_ work, simply because you can stay
focused on it long enough to get more done and/or to think about it more
thoroughly/deeply.

It's just one item, but perhaps take a look at whether you could adjust your
development cycle for this fellow to accomodate more useful, efficient
sustained bursts.

(Again, I don't know what the specific work in question is. The pertinence of
my comment is therefore unclear.)

P.S. Your use of the word "dick" indicates that you are already emotionally
engaged in this topic. Beware. No one's Mister Spock, but if you're letting
your emotions lead, you may be heading for a mess. Also, if I were the
developer and saw your use of the word "dick", our relationship would be over.

In short, you seem to be dragging some of your own baggage and/or faults into
this.

------
dsolomon
Judging from this post I'm expecting a similar one titled "My co-
founders/managers are dicks..." that links to this thread.

