
Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery - WestCoastJustin
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canada-post-to-phase-out-urban-home-mail-delivery-1.2459618
======
eigenvector
As the article notes, two-thirds of Canadians already do not have home mail
delivery. Many urban residents, like myself, who live in newer areas with
community mail boxes (a mail box that is maybe 100 metres from your home with
everyone's mail) or in any type of apartment or condo building do not have
mail delivered to our doorsteps.

It's secure (the boxes are locked unlike a doorstep mailbox), convenient
(parcels can be locked in a special parcel dropbox, the key for which is
deposited in your own mailbox, instead of having to be retrieved at the post
office) and cheaper for the postal system.

Only people who live in older, more affluent areas built before community
mailboxes receive home mail delivery. It's effectively a subsidy from us to
them. Good riddance.

~~~
corresation
We don't know the economics of super boxes versus home delivery, and it would
be perilously naive to assume that a move to it demonstrates that it is
fiscally prudent. Money goes from one person's pocket to another person's
pocket.

Superboxes are significant structures that have to be built and maintained to
withstand literally unending vandalism and attempts at theft. They are urban
blight, and most quickly become an eyesore that are, by federally forced
mandate, pushed onto a community and then maintained at Canada Post's leisure
and low level of standards. If any other business wanted to build such ominous
structures throughout a neighborhood the barriers and costs would be enormous,
and you talk about home delivery being subsidized? [In that self-destructive,
race-to-the-bottom, worst-outcome-for-all way that is so disheartening].

Give me a break.

Where a mail carrier once walked briskly through a neighborhood (doubling as a
set of eyes and ears in the community, for what that's worth), now they park
their truck and sit at the superbox for half an hour while they sort mail into
boxes.

I cannot, for the life of me, comprehend how it has made anything more
efficient. And of course the grossly inefficient Canada Post of today, with
sky-high postal rates and terrible service standards, already is horribly
inefficient, so shouldn't the superbox thing have been proven by now?

And it's curious that you note their security given that most have keys that
endure for years (from owner to owner to owner), and they are -- right now --
very common target for thieves: Why bother suspiciously going door to door
(where the residents would be more likely to quickly retrieve their mail
anyways, instead of some common box down the street) when you can pry open a
superbox and steal the mail of dozens of people at once.

[http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/locked-canada-
post-...](http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/locked-canada-post-
community-mailboxes-aren-t-secure-193119352.html)

Canada Post has always been a derelict, massively dysfunctional corporation.
Their parcel delivery service is only profitable because they _don 't deliver
parcels_: They give you a delivery notice and force you to drive to a depot
_n_ miles away in the most grotesquely inefficient delivery scheme devised by
man.

~~~
eigenvector
The cost of community mail delivery is not unknown. CMBs have existed for
decades and the article states that the cost of home delivery is 130% more. So
I would submit that we do actually know the economics of it. The cost
differential is about $762 million/year ($269-$117 * 5MM mailboxes).

I actually worked part-time as a mail carrier doing home delivery once. It's
not easy work, especially in the winter. A lot of people don't maintain their
driveways and walkways in the winter and it can be hazardous especially when
you're carrying 15 kg or more of mail.

CMBs aren't high-security. But they're surely more secure than unlocked home
mailboxes, especially in sleepy suburban neighbourhoods where no one is home
for most of the day.

I don't disagree that Canada Post could likely save money in other ways. But
this seems to be a rational place to start.

~~~
corresation
_The cost of community mail delivery is not unknown._

Imagine that UPS figured that delivering packages to your door is a real
sucker's game, and they were in a monopoly industry where they could
unilaterally make moves that competitors couldn't competitively undermine.

So they want to build big, onerous, eyesore structures everywhere throughout a
neighborhood.

How much do you think it would cost them to do that? What do you think they
will pay to rent the spaces, for instance?

Canada Post pays nothing. The federal government just forced it on
municipalities. To make this even more built on imaginary economics, Canada
Post forces _developers_ to pay for Canada Post to install the superboxes
($200 per address).

One of those beautiful forms of downloading that of course end-users pay for,
but somehow it saves the end user money.

In any case, Canada Post does not publish numbers for CMBs. They publish
numbers for group mailboxes (how credible and all inclusive they are we
certainly don't know), which includes a massive array of group deliveries, of
which superboxes are a subset.

 _I actually worked part-time as a mail carrier doing home delivery once. It
's not easy work, especially in the winter._

I'm not saying it is. But what is happening here is a battle between the union
and Canada Post, and both are a part of the problem. One of the reasons home
delivery has so many imaginary expenses is that it is a secret known country
wide that doing home delivery is a dream job because you are paid for the
route, but most carriers can complete the route in a small fraction of a work
day, though it is assessed, over long battled union rules, as a full work day.

It's a battle of imaginary work and imaginary expenses, and in the end
everyone loses.

~~~
eigenvector
You raise a good point that Canada Post doesn't pay a true market cost for the
real estate its CMBs sit on. But this is the nature of a quasi-public
monopoly. But that's the price we pay for you to be able to send a letter from
anywhere, to anywhere.

You raise another good point that the cost of home delivery is inflated by the
pay-by-distance union rules. But this issue is close to intractable. Given the
political reality of this situation, do you think postal workers will give up
these rules without a long, disruptive strike? Do you think the government
wants to get within 10 miles of another postal strike?

~~~
nasalgoat
| But that's the price we pay for you to be able to send a letter from
anywhere, to anywhere.

Except now, it's not anywhere, it's _somewhat adjacent_ to anywhere.

~~~
cwp
That's just a matter of resolution. Canada Post never did deliver to say, the
inbox on your desk, you always had to go to the mailbox to pick up your mail.

What the GP means is that Canada Post serves all areas of the country. If you
try to send a package to a rural area via UPS, they'll charge you courier
rates and then just mail it for you.

------
valtron
Wow! Look at that sharp decline in volume of mail! It's now 10% of what it was
4 years ago!

Oh, wait, the horizontal axis doesn't start at 0.

~~~
ihsw
Here is a graph with zeroed X-axis.

[http://i.imgur.com/OAul7h2.png](http://i.imgur.com/OAul7h2.png)

At the average rate of decline (constant ~4.5% decrease in mail delivered per
year), it should reach 10% of 2008's usage by 2050. This obviously does not
reflect reality, and it's just a napkin calculation.

~~~
ddebernardy
Curious to know how much of that is spam. Since the advent of email, nearly
everything that ends in my own mailbox are bills and statements, government-
related correspondence, the occasional e-commerce related package and (shit
tons of) spam. If the two former went full electronic, there would be very
little point in having a mailbox at all -- unless you actually read your spam.

~~~
graeme
Little known fact: almost all of the spam (at least in my area) is not postal
delivery. Private couriers deliver it. You can affix a "pas de pub" (no ads)
sticker to your mailbox, and it stops. (It's possible the post also stops some
spam delivery with this notice)

I havne't received junk mail in over a year.

~~~
lstamour
Canada Post delivers junk mail to my private mailbox. Changed my bills to
online (for those I could) and posted letter-stickers to my mailbox saying "No
Admail Please" and now I get 0 spam mailings. Also opted out of CMA marketing,
including opting out former residents addresses.

------
Patrick_Devine
The most lucrative part of mail delivery, parcel post, is doing well. Canada
Post also owns 91% of Purolator, another parcel delivery service similar to
UPS or Fedex, which is also doing just fine.

To me, this is the same as telcos complaining about the last mile problem.
It's expensive to deliver something to someone's house, particularly when
people choose to live in sprawling neighborhoods with little connectivity in
terms of roads. If I have to drive to someone's house, would I rather deliver
a letter for 60 cents or less (bulk mail), or a parcel for $4 to $10?

Just like the telcos, the government grants the postal service a monopoly on
first class letters so that they, amongst other things, guarantee connectivity
to remote parts of the country at a flat rate. If that's important either the
government has to pony up tax money to provide the service, or the cost of the
service has to go up. One thing the government has been unwilling to do is
charge different prices depending on how much a letter actually costs to send.
I'm certain people in remote communities might balk, but maybe dynamic pricing
makes sense, particularly when anyone can print their own postage with cheap
laser/inkjet printers.

------
dmix
Note: they only proposed this idea, they haven't confirmed it. Just like in
August when they were asking the government for money, they proposed cutting
delivery to every-other day. With this announcement, they got the bail-out
money and are now proposing a much more drastic solution. Neither have been
implemented.

~~~
slantyyz
When I moved to the suburbs, I thought I would hate the community mailboxes,
but they've actually turned out to be handy, because most small and mid sized
packages can be securely delivered into the community mailbox.

Larger packages or those that require a signature are usually dropped off at
the mail depot at a nearby drug store, which is open late.

When I buy online, especially from the US, I try to ship via USPS for this
reason (also because they don't add exorbitant Canadian brokerage fees the way
UPS and FedEx do).

~~~
GnarfGnarf
Yes, UPS (the courier) are thieves when it comes to outrageous "brokerage"
fees. Unfortunately a lot of places won't ship USPS (the post office) because
they can't get a signature as proof of delivery.

~~~
slantyyz
I just bought a $150 item, of which $20 was shipping and then had to pay $60
COD to UPS at the door, of which $40 was a brokerage fee to UPS (the rest was
duty and tax).

Outrageous is an understatement.

~~~
scarboy
Next time you get a package from UPS just don't answer the door.

1) Call/Email UPS and request a commercial invoice and the depot the parcel is
being held at. If it's not being held at a depot tell them you want to self-
clear and for them to hold it. You may have to argue with them for a while to
convince them this is a possibility.

2) Go to a CBSA office with the original receipt, commercial invoice and depot
location, and pay taxes to get your B15 form. You shouldn't pay taxes on
shipping.

3) Call UPS and ask them where you can send the B15 form.

4) Send them the B15 form with your tracking number on it and ask them to
release your package.

~~~
slantyyz
>> Next time you get a package from UPS just don't answer the door.

Well you actually have to do it _way_ before that. My package was held at the
border in Windsor/Detroit for a few days before it cleared. Once it's on a
truck to your house, it's already too late to avoid brokerage fees.

What's sad is that UPS actually offers a slightly higher rate (only a few
bucks more) that bypasses the brokerage fees, etc on shipments to Canada.

The problem is that most smaller online sellers don't know about it or care to
research it.

~~~
scarboy
You can decide to self clear at any point before accepting the package. It
doesn't matter if they've made you an invoice or not.

------
dergachev
I've lived in downtown Montreal for the last ten years. For as long as I can
remember, they've been doing exactly this with packages. Even if you're home,
the mailman will just leave a slip saying that you can pick up your package at
the local Canada Post outlet.

I have to wonder whether this will mean a huge boon to mail scanning services
like outboxmail.com

~~~
slantyyz
One feature that I like:

If you have a newer community mailbox, smaller packages get left in a larger
compartment in the community mailbox and they leave the compartment key in
your own mailbox.

After you pick it up, you drop the key in the outbound mail compartment. It's
very handy if you're not home to receive packages. In a way, it's like
BufferBox.

~~~
seszett
The larger compartments are barely the size of a regular mailbox here in
France though.

So, while I can understand the desire to reduce costs on the part of Canada
Post, I thought they offered zero convenience to users.

And going out in the cold and the snow to fetch my mail in winter in a
sidewalk-less neighbourhood was really not a pleasant experience (even if they
were not very far from our house).

~~~
memracom
In Canada we have winter weather 6-8 months of the year. We LOVE going out in
the cold. We play in the cold. We drink in the cold. We go out naked in the
cold (after a hot tub session).

~~~
seszett
Well, that's not what people say while they're shoveling the snow out of their
driveway just after the snow plow filled it with snow from the street, though.

Or when they slip in the slush and ruin their mail when coming back from the
community mailbox.

------
richardlblair
It's a great idea. I think that as time goes on, less and less mail will be
sent.

I don't even open my mail anymore. They are just bills. I look at the sender,
and then log onto their website. It's almost like a reminder, incase I forget
to pay a bill.

Actually, now that I think of it, I only get bills from 1 or 2 companies. The
other text/email me.

------
bryanlarsen
Why not significantly increase the price of bulk mailing? More money for the
post office, less advertisements in my mailbox. win-win. If they increase the
price too much the reduction in usage will more than offset the increase in
price, but I doubt that they're close to that yet.

~~~
danielweber
At least in the US, bulk mail subsidizes the rest of the system, because it's
a system with very high fixed costs spread over a larger volume.

------
JL2010
I wish that first chart extended back to say... 1996.

I think it would have given a better scale to indicate how much the rise of
the internet has effected traditional mail delivery.

------
InclinedPlane
For being a developed country Canada has pretty terrible parcel and mail
delivery, largely due to wonky regulations. Canada Post is horrible and UPS is
excessively expensive for no good reasons. It's held back the advance of
e-commerce there significantly.

~~~
slantyyz
Really? I am generally happier when a company offers Canada Post as a shipping
option.

I don't have to worry about being home to sign for the package, and for stuff
coming from the US via USPS, I don't have to worry about exorbitant surcharges
from the likes of Fedex or UPS.

OTOH, it's nice that UPS Canada's standard shipping no longer requires you to
be at home (signature not required) but you also have to worry about people
stealing your package if you live in a dodgy neighborhood.

------
stevewillows
As a frequent Canada Post user, it still gets me that it's cheaper to send
something to Europe or the US than it is to a fellow Canadian.

What factors allow USPS to be cheaper for the consumer while providing better
service?

~~~
scott_s
Losing money? [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/10/us/post-office-loss-
declin...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/10/us/post-office-loss-declines-in-
third-quarter.html?_r=0)

~~~
stevewillows
Unbelievable. Looking around, it looks like postal system are often operating
at a loss. Looks like an industry that could use some fresh eyes.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Not everything is meant to be run for-profit.

~~~
Karunamon
The main thing screwing over the USPS is the _moronic and absurd_ requirement
that they pre-fund retirement for people who don't even work there yet. And
then when they try to petition to change their policies to deal with the
shortfalls (no Saturday delivery, etc), congress smacks 'em down.

------
shirro
Australia Post has had 3 consecutive years of growth with a group profit of
$312 million after tax last year. They offset their regulated business (eg
mail delivery) which loses $218 million a year with things like parcel
delivery that are very profitable and growing. In a country where everything
generally costs far more than other places stamps are 60c. I wonder how long
that is sustainable.

Perhaps increased competition in the Canadian market makes it harder for them
to make the profits needed to subsidise their mail delivery.

------
beloch
I'd love to see some cooperation between courier services when it comes to
last-mile delivery services. Any package sent to me via international air-
mail, which is cheap compared to most couriers, goes through canada post's
last mile. This is actually pretty brilliant. If the package is small and no
duties are required to be paid, it goes right in the superbox on my street. If
it's larger or requires duties, it goes to the nearest canada post station,
which is about a five minute walk from my house. Canada post stations are
everywhere and have great coverage.

Compare this to UPS or Purolator (which Canada post owns the majority of).
They always try to deliver packages in between noon and 5pm, when I (and
probably most other people) am never home. They each have _one_ bloody depot
in the city, open roughly 12-5 naturally, and it's a freakin' half-hour drive
out of the way. Invariably, I have to go out of my way to drive over to their
office to pick up my packages because they are incapable of delivery during
the hours I am home (and they won't just drop off packages over a certain
value). Though purolator may be owned by Canada post, they do not use Canada
Post's last-mile infrastructure. Horrendous! Isn't the point of paying _extra_
for a courier _convenience_?

If Canada Post were to take over last-mile delivery from UPS and Purolator, or
at least take over the failed deliveries so customers only have to go to the
local post-office, they could bring in extra cash while vastly improving
service to customers. Why on Earth isn't this being done, if not for UPS
(which can burn in _HELL_ for all I care), at the very least for Purolator?

P.S. UPS is utter bloody crap for cross-border shipments. Any U.S. vendor who
only ships via UPS does _not_ get my business. The common joke up here is that
"UPS stands for _Use Purolator Stupid_!".

~~~
bowlofpetunias
The last mile handover is usually where things go horribly wrong.

That's why vendors that operate internationally choose UPS, the only courier
that can deliver from a factory in China to a doorstep almost anywhere on the
planet without having to hand it over to local services, which will vary
wildly in quality.

Also, nobody wants to pay the extortionate prices an old school state monopoly
like Canada Post apparently is. It always surprises me that North-America
holds on to their state systems where in Europe all of this is being
privatized and post offices are disappearing. The monopolistic postal service
is exactly why competitors can't invest in a better service.

~~~
beloch
You must be in the U.S., because you have no clue what kind of shenanigans UPS
plays. For example, if a package crosses international borders, certain
brokerage forms need to be filled out. You can do this yourself, but most
carriers include this in the price of postage. UPS only includes it in their
most expensive level of shipping. If you use UPS ground, for example, they'll
tack on brokerage fees unless you do the brokerage yourself, and the fees are
disproportionate! $50 on a $200 package is typical. You either have to resign
yourself to wasting time on forms or buy the expensive UPS shipping, because
the cheap shipping will actually be more expensive after brokerage! UPS is
also very sneaky when it comes to letting you know you can do the forms
yourself. Several times, UPS reps have told me I couldn't do it unless I went
in person to the port the package entered the country through! This is _not_
true, but they keep telling customers that.

In short, UPS can suck it. Horrible, horrible company. They're fine if you're
shipping from the U.S. to the U.S., or perhaps even from China to the U.S, but
from the U.S. to Canada they are horrendous. Avoid at all costs!

------
kylefox
Canada Post is an entity that sustains itself solely by delivering direct
marketing junk mail. As a Canadian citizen I would prefer to see it disappear
entirely. If people need things physically sent to them they should rely on
the private sector (FedEx, Purolator, etc).

Such a system would reduce waste and encourage digital of documents, invoices,
etc. +1.

------
DaemonHN
What if they made the door-to-door delivery a premium subscription that one
could opt-in? That could provide some revenue to offset the losses they are
posting. If you decided not to get it, your mail goes to the community
mailbox.

~~~
baddox
I doubt that makes much economic sense. If the delivery person has to walk to
your door, he or she might as well deliver to all the doors in between.

~~~
maerF0x0
and they could price that into the model. A person's price is $50/month - $10
per neighbor that is signed up.

------
dobbsbob
There's also the extra emissions factor. Instead of human powered clean energy
they will all have vehicles, which no doubt will cost extra in gas and vehicle
maint costs when we are supposed to be moving away from fossil fuels

------
sailfast
Small but perhaps worthwhile thought - I didn't see argued or tested that
reduced convenience of mailbox locations and delivery might actually reduce
the pieces of mail delivered using Canada Post.

Here in the US (I know, I know - different) a great deal of my daily mail is
marketing material. I would definitely not walk to my post box to reach it so
the reach / impact for advertisers would go down. Reduced impact would bring
reduced spending. I think mailed marketing material is somewhat outmoded and
wasteful, but I definitely still see it and thumb through my catalogs.

~~~
RobAtticus
I'm not sure I follow. Wouldn't you still have to check your mail anyway for
something that is non-marketing material? Once you're at the box, you might as
well take whatever's there, right?

~~~
eigenvector
A common problem is that people simply don't pick up the marketing mail (or
worse, drop it on the ground next to the community mailbox). It piles up until
their mailbox is full, and then the local postal worker knocks on your door
and reminds you to be a nice person and pick up your mail.

~~~
breischl
That seems like a great opportunity! Put a big recycling bin right there, but
before recycling the contents go through and catalog the mass marketing mail
that was discarded without being read. Then sell that information back to the
marketers. Less waste, more targeted mailings, money for the post office,
everyone wins!

Yeah, I'm kidding... though it might actually work.

~~~
frenchy
I could see this leading to some interesting community discussion: "So, who's
the ONE guy in the neighborhood that doesn't discard his Visa ads, and is
responsible for all the mail we get?"

------
maerF0x0
IMO all things of importance fall into two categories 1) it can be sent
electronically or 2) it is important enough to go get it from a central
location (be it central boxes or a depot for bigger items).

Additionally: If mobility is an issue and its a good that must come physically
to you (prescription for example), then its of value to pay
UPS/Fedex/DHL/Competitor to come to your door.

------
Raphmedia
Great idea. Remember that in Montreal, you have to climb outdoor stairs
covered with ice to get to the mailbox. Or roads blocked with snow.

Easier to have a common area. We already have that outside cities anyway.

------
epochwolf
And of course, there's someone posting about the US Postal Service in the
comments.

~~~
ojbyrne
Assuming you're talking about the same comment I'm looking at, they do try to
suggest "a North America wide attempt by Conservative Party's to destroy the
Public Postal service and in turn destroy two of the largest unions." which
makes it relevant.

