
Electronic Arts Sues Zynga, Says The Ville Is An “Unmistakable Copy” Of The Sims - jconley
http://techcrunch.com/2012/08/03/electronic-arts-sues-zynga-says-the-ville-is-an-unmistakable-copy-of-the-sims/
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dusing
From the complaint "As demonstrated in the chart below, The Ville uses the
same precise RGB values for its skin tones as does The Sims Social. There is
aninfinitesimally small chance that the use of the same RGB values for skin
tone in The Ville as TheSims Social is mere coincidence."

Zynga could have at least tried not to make the copying so obvious.

~~~
KaoruAoiShiho
Just a query: How similar is this to the 9 lines of code in the Oracle vs
Google situation?

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jfoutz
well, rgb is 16777216 colors. Lets say not all of those are acceptable skin
tones, but there's a broad spectrum that's allow. for the sake of argument,
lets go with a million. Not to be crazy racist, black white brown red and
yellow are all adjectives used to describe skin color. skin color is a big
slice of the color spectrum.

so, out of a million colors pick 8. what are the odds i pick the same 8? (if
you don't remember combinatorics, a million choose 8 is on the order of
10^40).

Even if you dispute the full million colors are available, restricting our
choice to just 100 unique skin colors, choosing 8 is over a hundred trillion
combinations.

I'd say the odds of you and i picking the same 8 colors are pretty darn small.

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jlgreco
And this is of course ignoring the decision to go with 8, not any other
reasonable number, different colors in the first place. ;)

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ericdykstra
Zynga is the Samwer Brothers of games.

Blatant copying, element-for-element. No derivation from the original, no
ethics, no shame. Zynga is a despicable company, and I have absolutely no
respect for the company itself or Pincus.

~~~
dakrisht
Couldn't agree more. Zynga is the biggest scam since Facbeook. Assholes like
Pincus are not innovators at the least, they are just plain scumbags who are
taking advantage of the boom. It's unfortunate. Especially how Pincus and
others cashed out $400M+ and left investors to dry.

Zynga will face their fate, as will Facebook, a lot of people will get rich, a
lot of people will lose money, but at the end of the day Zynga won't be around
for long and Facebook will be the next AIM.

~~~
cpeterso
I understand why Pincus runs Zynga like he does. But I don't understand why
Zynga's employees want to work there. They are (were?) probably hoping for a
big lottery ticket, but they must realize that every day they go to work and
rip off someone's original work.

I'm reminded of Pigdog's "d00d, Quit being a FUCKING ASS" rant addressed to
the programmers of Sony's malicious copy-protection:

    
    
      I know you didn't start off like this. I know that you're like me, that you're 
      like all of us. That you love these things called computers, that your fingers 
      itch when you're away from them, that your whole essence pours out of your 
      fingertips into the keyboard when you make that system DO YOUR MAGIC. It's 
      incredible, it's power, it's a tradition that goes back centuries, and it's 
      flowing through you right now, right this very second.
    
      And you're BETRAYING it. You're standing on the shoulders of giants and SHITTING 
      on them. For something you believe in? For something you're PROUD OF? Or for the 
      dollars of Sony Megacorp and the opportunity that that brings?
    

<http://www.pigdog.org/auto/software_jihad/link/2581.html>

~~~
Impossible
A lot of Zynga's employees are game industry developers and Zynga tends to pay
better than most for a comparable title and skillset. I know a lot of people
thay have left "beloved" console and PC developers to get a better paycheck at
Zynga. This is especially true for game designers and artista who have less
ability to simply leave games entirely to make more money.

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Macha
Some of the stuff in the details section is pretty astounding. They've copied
things as closely as the wall-height to floor size ratio. I doubt even EA
thought much about that, other than selecting a size that they thought looked
reasonable, yet Zynga neeeded to put effort into copying it so exactly? Why?
If you're going to rip off a game, why put effort into making it so blatant?

I understand Zynga even less now.

My gut feeling on reading the headline was originally "Well, EA can't
complain, Simcity Social was far more a Cityville clone than a continuation of
Simcity", but wow, actually looking at the complaint is pretty damning for
Zynga.

~~~
wmf
If you're not skilled enough to create something good, you're better off
finding something good and copying it exactly — you're probably not qualified
to understand which parts are essential and which are arbitrary. It takes guts
to copy something exactly, though; most people can't resist the urge to make
their mark.

~~~
georgemcbay
> It takes guts to copy something exactly, though;

Guts and a total disregard for copyright law.

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mikeryan
Ok I'm rooting for EA in this. I think Zynga's been preying on smaller
developers for years in this manner. Its about time they went head to head
with an 800lb gorilla.

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SeanDav
Zynga got its start by blatantly copying another company's game and they
haven't stopped since. If there is any justice in this world they will
eventually fail horribly and go bankrupt but I am not holding my breath.

Up to now they have chosen minnows who couldn't fight back but EA is a whole
new ballgame.

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ben0x539
So we're gonna side with Zynga on this because it is innovating by bringing
The Sims to Facebook and EA is trying to block innovation with IP lawsuits
here, right?

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raganwald
Isn't this exactly the same as the Apple vs. Samsung wars? Although those
involve patents and this involves copyright, it comes down to the same moral
issue. Company #1 starts selling black glass slabs and company #2 clones themm
in almost every respect.

At some fundamental level you either think that competition "should" involve
innovation and/or original design in order to incentivise peopel to create
original products, or you think that cloning look and feel is part of the
market operating efficiently without artifical barriers.

~~~
dag11
It's similar, but has one fundamental difference.

The Apple vs. Android holy war spans many different devices, user interfaces,
brands, packaging methods, and advertisements. Some Android phones copy the
iPhone/iOS more than others. For example, I feel that the Galaxy S1 absolutely
tries to copy many key aspects of iPhone and iOS, down to the device
appearance, UI appearance, packaging, and marketing (in terms of visuals).
However, I don't feel that many other phones (such as the Galaxy Nexus)
resemble the iPhone to the amount that Apple wishes it did.

In contrast to that situation, this EA vs. Zynga battle is over one specific
product, with defined features and aesthetics.

~~~
theevocater
But raganwald wasn't talking about the "Apple vs Android holy war". He posted
specifically about Apple vs Samsung which _is_ about specific products.

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dougabug
Zynga appears to be a serial copycat: [http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/24/tiny-
tower-developers-call-...](http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/24/tiny-tower-
developers-call-out-zynga-for-their-look-alike-game/)

~~~
leeskye
They have been down this path before: [http://blog.games.com/2011/02/23/mafia-
wars-zynga-digital-ch...](http://blog.games.com/2011/02/23/mafia-wars-zynga-
digital-chocolate-lawsuit/)

~~~
ChrisNorstrom
Many many many times: [http://www.businessinsider.com/how-zynga-is-just-like-
micros...](http://www.businessinsider.com/how-zynga-is-just-like-
microsoft-2010-1?op=1)

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Reebz
From my perspective, a fairy tale ending would be for EA to take Zynga to the
cleaners, then cut a check to every independent label that Zynga has copied
off in the past, or start some sort of fund for independent game companies. EA
are still going to make a few bucks, but it will help the wider community.

~~~
Harkins
EA pay developers? Can you ask for a unicorn, too?

~~~
corin_
Potentially they could win enough that paying the indie devs Zinga screwed
would a.) cost a small amount of their settlement from the case and b.) be
epic, epic PR

Don't get me wrong, I can't imagine them doing it, but there's certainly an
argument for it.

~~~
Reebz
I can't imagine them doing it either, but the PR would certainly be incredibly
epic and a nod to the quality of the indie game scene.

PS: My introduction of "fairy tale ending" was chosen specifically to
reinforce the unlikeliness!

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jconley
This is all very reminiscent of the video game industry of the 80's, where
everyone was making largely the same games and trying to figure out where they
fit in the marketplace. Some lawsuits like this were successful, and others
weren't. It's a tough call, though I tend to side with Zynga here.

Copyright on characters, art, text, code, and logos is great. We obviously
don't want direct clones. But, Copyright applied to a genre and style of
gameplay is ridiculous. We wouldn't have any of the great games we have today
if those things were enforceable.

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jamesu
I'm not quite sure how you could mistake The Ville for The Sims. Besides both
games being set in a buildable house with interactive objects, the games are
largely completely different. From what I can tell, It doesn't even simulate
people.

Imagine if in the 90's the makers of Dune 2 decided to sue everyone who made a
game which looked like their RTS. I don't think Warcraft would have stood a
chance!

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Goronmon
Stealing from dag11's comment below.

[http://www.scribd.com/doc/101954002/EA-v-Zynga-Complaint-
Fin...](http://www.scribd.com/doc/101954002/EA-v-Zynga-Complaint-Final)

I'd say that's pretty blatant copying there.

~~~
Zimahl
Yeah, ouch. At first I was thinking some of the comparisons were going to be
reaching but when even the x/y scale of objects is the same, that's pretty
blatant.

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dakrisht
Thinking about this a little more in-depth now I actually can't believe that
EA hasn't filed suit earlier. Maybe they were waiting and building a stronger
case? Sim City was the definitive game of the late 90s - early 2000s,
CityVille is a direct rip. Now with The Ville they are ripping off even more
EA products.

By no means do I like the direction EA has gone in the past few years, they
are very poorly regarded game company with bad leadership, but their IP is
blatantly being ripped off.

I'm glad they're fighting back and if this goes to a jury trial, which I
certainly hope it does, Zynga will be done. However, I think Zynga will most
likely be taken off the NASDAQ long before a trial, their assets liquidated
and the company will file for bankruptcy protection.

It's a shame so many investors, VCs, and etc. invest in companies like Zynga,
but they're cashing out so it's a sound investment for them.

~~~
darkarmani
They were waiting for the easiest case to win.

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jconley
EA knows this type of litigation is probably a waste of time, in terms of
shutting down a particular game. But, it is probably at least partially a PR
stunt to drive down Zynga's flailing stock price and hurt the long term
outside capital outlook for Zynga. Smart move EA.

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rhizome
Zynga has been orienting its lawyers toward this eventuality as long as EA has
been waiting for them to step into their trap.

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dag11
Here's the trailer for The Ville: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXX6XvGBj4w>

It definitely has a 'Sims' vibe to it.

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justjimmy
Between choosing EA vs Zynga, I'll choose to side with the Lawyers on this
one.

:D

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reidmain
I'd flip a coin and then shoot myself.

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DigitalSea
Without-a-doubt Zynga is at fault here. Those who know the way Zynga works
know this was intentional, you only have to look back on the plethora of
allegations against Zynga about copying other people's games and
Facebookatising them to make money. As much as I loathe EA these days, nobody
should have their hard earned work ripped off like that, I hope Zynga pays
dearly for this. The RGB skin colour argument alone will be the end of them.

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Karunamon
Whoever wins, we lose.

Seriously. A shitty company suing a shitty company using a shitty law.

It would be impossible for me to muster any less care about these two.

~~~
wtracy
Let me point out that the only people EA seems to screw over are the people
dumb enough to work for them. Zynga goes out and rips off independent third
parties.

So, I would lean toward rooting for EA on this one, but not because I like EA.

~~~
jlgreco
_"the only people EA seems to screw over are the people dumb enough to work
for them."_

Or buy from them, but yes. They only screw you over if you choose to associate
with them first.

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atrus
I'm not sure who to root for in this case...

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ajross
Zynga is vile. But they're the good guys here, without argument. The idea that
you can protect a game genre is nonsense, and terribly damaging. Imagine if Id
sued Epic or Valve to kill Unreal and HL2? Imagine if Blizzard killed all the
competing RTS? Imagine if Sony killed WoW?

~~~
dag11
It's not the genre that was copied, it was the exact behavior and appearance
of the game.

Read this, or at least view the comparison images:
[http://www.scribd.com/doc/101954002/EA-v-Zynga-Complaint-
Fin...](http://www.scribd.com/doc/101954002/EA-v-Zynga-Complaint-Final)

~~~
ceejayoz
Wow, that's pretty remarkable. They even copied the RGB values for the
possible character skin tones.

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SeanDav
Actually I just realized they can claim prior art. Zynga have been ripping off
other games for so long without consequences that they can now claim this
process is prior art...

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dangrossman
Prior art is a concept in patent law, not copyright law.

~~~
SeanDav
yes I know - was just making a small joke, probably not apt as you point out!

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powerslave12r
Wonder if real life counts as prior art.

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3am_hackernews
I think EA should also sue Zynga for its CityVille's resemblance to SimCity.

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wmf
Except EA's new SimCity Social copies CityVille's "gameplay" exactly. It's
like two snakes eating each other's tails.

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ks
SimCity Social was released almost a year before Zynga's game.

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wmf
I'm reading that SimCity Social was released about six weeks ago; is that
wrong or were you thinking of something else?

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ks
I made a mistake when answering. I should have written "The Sims Social". It
was released a year ago and is the one EA claims Zynga copied.

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cpeterso
I wonder if this is EA's (aggressive) opening to a Zynga acquisition.

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seanoliver
I feel like Coke could probably make the same argument about Pepsi. There are
plenty of examples of very similar products competing with one another in
today's marketplace.

It seems like EA winning this could lead to a lot of anti-competitive activity
down the line.

