
Growth hacker? Bite me - dirktheman
http://www.dirktheman.com/rant/growth-hacker-bite-me/
======
patio11
A rose by any other name...

Do you believe there are short dev projects which make meaningful, compounding
improvements in core areas of concern for the business? If so, holy cow,
right? That is really, really, REALLY important to how you'd conduct your
business ("do them") and how you'd arrange a career as a dev (at the margin,
why work on anything else?)

If you don't believe that that set of projects exists or can be reliably
identified in advance, then huge levels of disdain would be warranted... if
you're very confident that you're right. The evidence is not in your favor.

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jamiequint
This article misses the origin of the term 'growth hacker'. There are two
primary shifts that got us here:

1\. Marketing moving from being an external function to an internal function
that is embedded in the product. Thus product design, product development, and
product management skills are becoming very important skills to possess as
part of a marketing function.

2\. As marketing channels shift from being largely immeasurable to measurable
at a very detailed level the marketing function demands more understanding of
data and statistics.

Hence the term "growth hacker". Someone with product design, product
development, and product management skills who also has a solid understanding
of data and statistics, then leverages these skills to direct marketing
efforts whether internal (product driven) or external (advertising/content
driven).

~~~
Evbn
Agree with all of this except there is no evidence that the A/B testing world
as a whole knows anything correct about statistics, in the sense of being able
to profit from more sophisticated bets than "this idea seems not too bad". If
players bet real money on the probabilities they claimed, they would be
bankrupt. Contrast against the auto insurance companies and such who get this
stuff right.

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danso
This rant seems to mostly be a slam against buzzwords in general (which is a
bias I also share)...but I don't agree with his reasoning behind the attack in
this case

> _So yeah, maybe a ‘traditional marketer’ isn’t able to come up with the
> (admittingly impressive) solution of HOW to push a listing to Craigslist,
> but you can’t just go saying that he/she can’t come up with the idea!_

I haven't followed the discussions about growth hackers, but I can imagine a
person whose skillset covers both marketing and code in a way that the whole
is greater than the sum of those two parts.

It's not just the "idea" that matters, but the understanding of how discrete
data can be usefully collected, analyzed, and disseminated. Call me skeptical,
but I don't think there are many marketers who really understand the
admittedly pedantic logistics in this...I don't mean that they need to
actually code this, but to understand that there is such a way to parse
amorphous tasks and information such that something truly useful can be done.

As an example, how many people out there merely had the idea that people like
collecting photos and displaying them in an attractive layout? How many of
those built a massive startup company from that idea?

~~~
mindcrime
_It's not just the "idea" that matters, but the understanding of how discrete
data can be usefully collected, analyzed, and disseminated. Call me skeptical,
but I don't think there are many marketers who really understand the
admittedly pedantic logistics in this...I don't mean that they need to
actually code this, but to understand that there is such a way to parse
amorphous tasks and information such that something truly useful can be done._

I think you underestimate marketers. Some of those guys & gals are practically
statisticians. Have you ever picked up a "marketing research" textbook and
skimmed through it? Serious marketers know a LOT about how to "collect,
analyze and disseminate" data.

~~~
danso
I don't disagree here. But I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
There are statisticians who are great at analysis...when the data is well
formatted and granular. These same statisticians are less attune to how you
collect and disseminate that data in different ways (a different "way" could
be: how do I automate spam Craigslist subsections at relative intervals
related to the frequency of postings in each particular subsections, and, of
course, make this spam not look like spam?)

In the science and medicine field, there are obviously many brilliant,
technical minds. Yet not all of them can properly code, which limits the
domain of their work when it comes to efficiency and scope.

~~~
mindcrime
_These same statisticians are less attune to how you collect and disseminate
that data in different ways (a different "way" could be: how do I automate
spam Craigslist subsections at relative intervals related to the frequency of
postings in each particular subsections, and, of course, make this spam not
look like spam?)_

Fair point.

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wtvanhest
Buzz words are annoying, but sometimes they help communicate...

As companies grow, they have to hire "business people" including dedicated
marketers. One of HN's and Silicon Valley's problems is figuring out who is a
business person who can add value and who is an "idea person" has has traveled
to the valley to kill time over the next 3 years before getting a real job.

The solution is the term Growth Hacker which, while annoying actually serves
the purpose of filtering the highest production people from a huge amount of
potential marketing candidates.

I'm not sure if we will ever see the term Finance Hacker or Accounting Hacker
but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some other terms develop.

~~~
mindcrime
Adding new terms to the lexicon _can_ be handy and is, obviously, required on
occasion. I'm still a bit skeptical that "growth hacker" really adds any value
though, especially since it seems to be somewhat amorphously defined, and it's
a label that anyone can anoint themselves with - much like "Social Media
Expert" or "SEO Expert."

Get the industry to stabilize on a clear, consistent, meaningful definition of
what a "growth hacker" really is and some criteria for being one and maybe it
becomes useful.

I mean, Growth Hacker is a shorter phrase than "marketing specialist who can
code, with specialized knowledge in product management, viral growth
strategies, and data analysis." But is that really what it means?

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sageikosa
Even before the author mentioned this was marketing, I was telling myself
"this is marketing".

Perhaps the term "growth hacker" has arisen because "marketing" has gotten a
bad rep. In the world of 1990s software development, marketing drove features
based on market research, making developers resent the idiosyncratic nature of
the user community, and their proxy: the marketing guy (almost as much as the
sales guy who would promise something that wasn't even under development).

In the post 2000s world, every developer dreams of internet gold and striking
it rich with their idea (and a marketing guy would corrupt that), so a "growth
hacker" sounds less "evil" and more like someone a developer could work with,
even though they will likely alter the concept of the product to make it
"marketable" (ie, "pivot" the project)

~~~
mindcrime
_Perhaps the term "growth hacker" has arisen because "marketing" has gotten a
bad rep._

It only has a "bad rap" among people who are fairly clueless about what
marketing actually is, and/or people who hasty assessments based on limited
data points. So, a hacker worked for a startup where the "marketing guy" was
seen as evil, and now "marketing has a bad rap" seems to be the meme here. And
that would be silly.

Marketing is damn interesting stuff and it's absolutely crucial to a
successful business. And good marketers, like good developers, are talented,
skilled and hardworking. And, also like good developers, they're hard to find.

~~~
sageikosa
I don't disagree. That they may have acquired a bad rep (amongst developers,
or perhaps hackers) wasn't a value judgment, just an observation.

I try to separate the individuals holding a position from the position itself.
I've met great sales people, marketers, testers and subject matter experts.
I've also met bad project managers, directors, software architects, and
developers.

I think if there was any reason for general business functions to get a bad
rep in the late 1990s, it was probably due to the glut of post-Reagan-era
business school graduates, the dearth of traditional large corporate
organizations to fill them (by then, military-industrial downsizing was
underway and heavy industry was moving offshore), and the boom-time investment
craze of the early ".COM" era, leading to the ready availability of job roles
which could be absorbed (and were often demanded) by investment capital.

~~~
mindcrime
_I think if there was any reason for general business functions to get a bad
rep in the late 1990s, it was probably due to the glut of post-Reagan-era
business school graduates, the dearth of traditional large corporate
organizations to fill them..._

Yeah, that's reasonable. A lot of things definitely changed in the 80's and
bled over into the 90's. The era of "right-sizing" and "re-engineering" and
the proliferation of TLA's and buzzwords, and the breaking of that traditional
company/employee bond, definitely could have (did?) lead to some perception
changes of "business people."

That said, I think there's always been (and maybe always will be, as much as I
wish it were othewise) a gulf between the technology world and the business
world. It's like the people on each "side" don't really understand each other,
don't really _want_ to understand each other, and each underestimates the
value of the other. _sigh_

------
aginn
most growth hackers or growth pros are product managers or product editors,so
the post starts with the wrong premise.

Also, your accusations against growth hackers are titled based rather than
what they do or learning about what growth hackers do. If growth hackers
choose to identify themselves with each other in a new way, I don't think
there is an issue. Let them be. Remember, front-end engineering wasn't
considered much of a position 5 years ago. Same with UX, UI, data scientist,
etc. How about SEO specialist or direct-marketers.... Can they self-idenitfy a
new sub-division of marketing?

Adam Smith was right, people specialize as an industry expands to offer
greater value in a niche. Growth has become essential to startups. Growth
teams are becoming standard at scaling startups. Thus, growth hackers
appeared.

It is fine to express a distaste for a growth hacker by what he or she does,
seems silly to dislike them for their title. That is like saying "I hate
chocolate because of they call it "chocolate""

I must say degrading the work Sean Ellis and Andrew Chen have done by
comparing them to meaningless consultants from the dot-com era is disgusting.
Andrew Chen is one of the most brilliant viral engineers on this planet. Sean
Ellis has rocketed several companies to success and just acquired a KISS
company. I don't respect ad hominem attacks, neither should you.

~~~
mindcrime
_It is fine to express a distaste for a growth hacker by what he or she does,
seems silly to dislike them for their title._

I would say exactly the opposite. I expect the average HN reader has
tremendous respect for what "growth hackers" _DO_. But I also think that a lot
of the kickback against the term is the _perception_ (justified or not) that
it's an unnecessary, vacuous term that (ironically) is "just marketing". Or,
IOW, a fluffy title that some people have adopted to make themselves sound
more interesting.

If these folks were routinely being called Marketing Strategists or something,
I doubt there would be all this discussion about it.

------
paulsutter
The term "growth hacker":

1\. Focuses on the hybrid nature of the work. In a small team you can't have
two departments doing what one smart guy can do, and

2\. Helps purely technical people overcome bias that marketing work is the
dark side, show that it's also cool.

It's like a micro restatement of the "Copper and Tin" section of
<http://paulgraham.com/bronze.html>. Maybe not the greatest phrase of all
time, but this article seems like a bit of a personal overreaction.

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rohansingh
This is getting cliché. I think at this point I'm now seeing more posts
railing against the use of the term "growth hacker", than I am seeing actual
uses of the term "growth hacker".

This anti-"growth hacker" sentiment isn't bold or brave anymore. It's
repetitive.

~~~
Ensorceled
I was just thinking that. Actual usage of growth hacker seems mostly "tongue
in cheek" or "for lack of a better term".

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livestyle
Fantastic read and one that will ruffle some feathers..kudos.

I find it interesting that in Andrew Chen's famous growth hacker post he
doesn't mention the other craigslist "hack"(insert sarcasm) that was even more
important to airbnb's growth.

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hack_edu
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.dirktheman.com/rant/growth-
hacker-bite-me/)

Site appears to have bitten the dust

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awwstn2
Writing a bitter rant on your personal website and posting it on HN yourself =
"growth hacking"

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calgaryeng
Isn't this largely similar to another post that was up here about a week ago?

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lmm
My, that's the least readable site I've seen on HN in a while.

~~~
dirktheman
Font-wise? Layout wise? Although it's a Wordpress frankenstein-job, but I'm
always curious about improving the experience!

~~~
johnlensonni
It's just a big mess. Why is the background brown, but then the background of
the text black? Do you find those colours complement each other? Along with
the blue, the whole design looks really grimy and dingy.

Why are you telling me the date? I know today's date.

I don't like the battery of social network icons, you may disagree.

I also don't like the swearing. I think it's unprofessional, however also very
subjective.

Strange mix of sans and serif fonts, with no apparent reason for which is
which. "Growth Hacker? Bite me!" is serif, below that "Why the term 'growth
hacking' is just another buzz word" is sans. Below that "A rant by Dirk" which
is serif, apart from the single word "rant".

~~~
dirktheman
Thanks! I'll definetely look into it when I have the time.

