
Mormon Tycoon Wants to Build Mega-Utopia in Vermont - mkempe
http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-newvistas-mormon-utopia/
======
morgante
This turned out to be a lot more serious and interesting than I expected. From
the headline, Hall sounded like a Mormon nutcase. But his plans are actually a
lot more realistic than you'd expect: a planned development of 20,000 people
is not crazy. He's also putting real effort into the engineering required to
fulfill the density of his vision. It also sounds like he's trying to make the
venture sustainable and appears to have found some success in revenue through
licensing or more traditional development projects.

He's probably crazy to be trying it in Vermont though. He'll have to import
voters before he can get anything approved.

Maybe he just needs to listen to his PR people more. Downplay the Mormon
angle, talk more about environmental efficiency, and pitch the communistic
aspects—he might just get more sympathy.

~~~
T0T0R0
Meanwhile, why are people placing a harsh light on Mormons?

Go ahead and change the word Mormon to something else, and notice how
repugnant everything becomes.

~~~
cowsandmilk
> Meanwhile, why are people placing a harsh light on Mormons?

In most cases I would agree. For instance, knowing Clayton Christensen is a
Mormon should have no impact on someone's opinion of disruption theory. And
there are cases, like Mitt Romney, where the media placed way too much of a
focus on his family being Mormon.

In this case though, the fact that the tycoon is Mormon plays a central role.
His plans are literally based on drawings by Joseph Smith he found in
researching mormon history. These are literally plans by the founder of
Mormonism being implemented in the state where he was born (which is mentioned
in the article as the reason why the tycoon is familiar with Vermont and thus
chose it for his communities).

This isn't an article making fun of Mormons and "their sacred underwear" or
other "let's point and laugh" material. It is an article about a man who
studied Mormon history and decided to implement the vision of its founder.
Mormonism is a key element to the story.

~~~
fennecfoxen
> the media placed way too much of a focus on his family being Mormon.

You're telling me. Four years later I'm in London and the city buses are still
advertising the "Book of Mormon" musical. (admittedly that wasn't 100% a
Romney thing, but the timing was no coincidence, either.)

~~~
kbenson
What? The advertisements or the play itself? If you are attributing the play
itself to the presidential race, I think you are mistaken, because the play
was in development _long_ before the Romney was a candidate, and is by the
creators of South Park (Trey Parker and Matt Stone), which have _often_
featured the Mormon religion in their works[1].

1:
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0124819/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0124819/)

2:
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0705893/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0705893/)

------
themodelplumber
As a Mormon myself, I've never heard of this guy or his plans. I've heard of
lots of "niche" Mormons with crazy ideas though, so I read on for
entertainment purposes.

I was pretty surprised by the quality of thought going into the project. This
guy probably has a lot in common with the HN crowd so I can see why the
article was submitted. He's a type of visionary/intuitive/big-picture thinker,
someone who is concerned about the quality of systems, sustainability, things
like that.

The end of the article outlines the problem nicely though; there's a real
conundrum--do we trust the guy who seems to know what he's doing and addresses
the exact problems we complain about, or do we trust our fears that something
always seems to go wrong?

~~~
mc32
It reminds me a bit of the Daybreak[1] privately built master planned
community in Utah build by a mining company. Not sure how well it's coming
along, but seems like they wanted everything to be walkable and pleasant.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(community)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_\(community\))

~~~
phamilton
My sister lived in Daybreak, and one time I came to visit and ended up a half
block shifted from her place. The house looked identical and I almost let
myself into some random strangers house. I decided to knock at the last second
and was quite surprised when a stranger answered.

It felt a little creepy, things were just a little too uniform.

~~~
vkou
There was a fantastic Soviet film about this exact phenomena. [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irony_of_Fate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irony_of_Fate)

~~~
FreifMays
Yes, super cool movie!

Had my wife translate it (while watching - me being German).

There are lots of nice movies from that time in the CCCP.

We are so saturated with american (popular) culture that it is quite
refreshing to get into contact with Russian culture.

------
arxpoetica
This man is my uncle. FYI, I have NO affiliation with the project, but I have
watched it with rapt attention since I have connections to both the Mormon
community and “Uncle David,” as well as very close Vermont friends, so I
definitely see both sides of the coin. Again, ZERO affiliation other than
relation, but happy to answer any questions from an unofficial role. ;)

~~~
douche
Completely off-topic random question: how closely related are Mormon families,
generally? With similarly insular populations (Mormons seem to tend to marry
other Mormons), that have families that are larger than normal, it seems like
family ties would proliferate and you'd end up with communities that are
rather closely knit through webs of marriage.

~~~
Jach
Mormons settled Utah in the 1800s, and in the 200 years since they've been
quite incredibly successful at attracting other people to their faith (and
consequently often to their state too) from other states, Canada, and European
countries, with everyone multiplying fruitfully. There's plenty of genetic
diversity. You could satisfy your curiosity with almost any specific Mormon
couple though by asking how closely related they are, Mormons are good at
keeping track of their ancestry.

~~~
SiVal
Sure, ask Matz (the Mormon creator of Ruby) how closely he's related to his
wife. I hear Japan is pretty insular.

------
mrchucklepants
David Hall has been my boss for the past 10 years. I have worked a little on
some of these projects over the years but I work for the oil & gas part of the
company that was sold to Schlumberger. David has lots of ideas, many I have
helped him kill quickly. Some are great though and have lead to major
innovations in diamond technology, oil & gas drilling, and a growing number of
other fields.

~~~
noobermin
He sounds like an idea-man, someone similar to a lot of people here on HN.

~~~
j2bax
Not sure if this is meant in a positive way or negative way... If negative,
I'd say, an idea-man with the funds to see his ideas through to completion
isn't your typical _Hey I have an idea, want to build it for me for rev share_
type of guy that is typically lambasted around here...

~~~
noobermin
I actually meant it positive, but you're right, he's not just a big-thinker,
he actually has the ability to bring his ideas into fruition.

------
elliotec
I'm from Salt Lake City and a former Mormon. I want to emphasize former
because I'm in no way affiliated with the church and have a bit of lifelong
bitterness toward it (used to be much worse, mostly over it now) and while I
think a lot of things about Mormonism are completely stupid, they sure know
how to build cities and be settlers and pioneers.

I think that mentality has passed through generations and it's really exciting
to see this kind of advanced utopian dream come to life, even if it pisses off
neighbors and if it ultimately fails.

I'm obsessed with cities and I would love to see this turn into the vision
that Joseph smith had in mind, even if all his other visions are laughable
loads of whatever.

~~~
cookiecaper
There is no connection to actual Mormonism here. If there was, Hall would
certainly not be encountering serious opposition in Provo, of all places.

Hall's practices are immediately suspect because he's advertising his
affiliation with the Mormon Church as a major part of this endeavor. It's
extremely common for scammers to try to exploit religious people by falsely
claiming some sort of sanction or approval from religious bodies.

I also wish Hall luck in building a sustainable, walkable, high-end
development, and in reading other articles about his clashes with neighbors in
Provo I was even kind of rooting for him, but I'm really put off by the
insinuation that either the Mormon Church or Mormon doctrine has anything to
do with it.

~~~
jonah
How can there be no connection. The guy is mormon, the inspiration is directly
from Smith's writings, etc. I don't know anything about the writings, but from
the article, it seems Smith was fairly clear in wanting to do something like
this.

Of course, yes this is an entrepreneur wanting to do a grandiose thing, but to
say there's no connection is silly.

(I'm not a Mormon, and have no horse in this race.)

~~~
cookiecaper
Because in Mormon (and Christian) eschatology, Zion, the New Jerusalem, is a
real thing. It's not just one man's experiment to build a utopia. Zion is
swamped in religious significance. It can't be built without specific forms of
divine help, and it's not Zion without specific markers, like divinely-
authorized temples.

Smith's early drawings are good as far as they go, but they are non-canonical.
They are of only historical interest to the Church. It is fine that Hall has
drawn inspiration from them, but it is not fine to imply that there is any
connection between Zion the Mormon Concept and Hall's NewVistas project.

A copy of an old drawing isn't the distinctive characteristic of Zion. The
distinctive characteristic is that a group of people within a specific
geographic region are so completely realizing their religious precepts that
divine beings make a home there.

Joseph Smith's teachings re: Zion are meaningless outside of that context, and
invoking Zion in any other way is sacrilege (doubly so when it's to promote a
commercial endeavor).

~~~
jonah
So you're saying the true Zion / New Jerusalem of the end times will come
about organically rather than in a pre-planned fashion? Fair enough.

(I'm not up on my eschatology enough to get into this further.)

~~~
joshontheweb
I think what he means is that mormon concept of Zion/New Jerusalem cannot be
brought about by someone with his standing in the mormon church. It would need
to be initiated by the leaders of the church who presumably act in God's name.
In fact, the location of the New Jerusalem has already been prophesied. It is
supposed to be built up in Missouri. It was already started but never
finished. You can go and see where the corner stones for the temples were
placed decades ago but never completed. It doesn't mean this guy can't create
a nice community but it will never be Zion in the mormon sense of the word.

Source: I was raised mormon and my family used to go visit the location where
Zion was to be created.

~~~
cookiecaper
I don't think it necessarily has to be initiated top-down. But the thing is
that this is nothing like Zion, except that it resembles an old drawing. The
physical layout of Zion is an unimportant implementation detail. Not only does
Hall have no authority, but he also, as far as I know, has not expressed any
intention for this to be an attempt at real Zion, and even if he had, it
wouldn't matter. One man can't make Zion by himself. Not even the President of
the Church can do that, which is abundantly clear from a cursory review of
Smith's biography. It requires a people that so fully live the principles of
the Celestial Kingdom that divine beings can take up residence among them (see
D&C 105:5 [0]). Hall may believe he has found a great city layout in the
archives of the Church, and if so, more power to him, but this all has no
relation to the real Zion, which is the pure in heart. That's why I keep
saying these have nothing to do with each other, except that Hall is copying
an old drawing by Smith.

If someone was making a _serious_ attempt at building Zion, they would do so
by committing themselves to teaching the pure doctrine, engaging in as much
service as possible, helping other people fix their economic woes in a self-
sufficient, sustainable manner that doesn't necessitate a patron (which
basically means supplying the basics while they learn an in-demand skill), and
so on. In short, they would do all the things the Church is already doing. All
an individual can do is seek to augment that.

So, again, while Hall's project is admirable, it has no relation to Zion,
because Zion is Zion only once a heavenly people inhabit it. It's not about
building a city out to a certain spec.

[0] [https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-
testament/dc/105.5?lang=en...](https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-
testament/dc/105.5?lang=eng)

~~~
joshontheweb
I don't disagree.

Edit: I guess I partially disagree. In order for you to be a 'True Believing
Mormon' you would not be able to embark on a project as large as creating
Zion/New Jerusalem without the express permission/mandate from the first
presidency. Anything outside of this would make you an apostate in their eyes.
I don't necessarily subscribe to all of that but the rules are clear within
the church proper.

~~~
cookiecaper
>In order for you to be a 'True Believing Mormon' you would not be able to
embark on a project as large as creating Zion/New Jerusalem without the
express permission/mandate from the first presidency. Anything outside of this
would make you an apostate in their eyes. I don't necessarily subscribe to all
of that but the rules are clear within the church proper.

I don't think this is correct. Everyone is a participant in creating the New
Jerusalem insofar as they working to make themselves and those around them
more heavenly.

The physical buildings and structure are practically an afterthought. They'll
come into being once the people who can live there exist. I don't believe that
there will be a call out or a "project" embarked upon per se; I know a lot of
Mormons expect the prophet to say "We're going to Missouri" out of the blue
one day, but I don't think it will happen that way. Even in Joseph Smith's
day, when proclamations along those lines did occur, the process was long and
gradual, and ultimately used to facilitate the journey out to the Saints'
settling place in Utah. Saints who expected immediate redemption were quickly
and repeatedly disappointed. It will be the same way with the New Jerusalem.
It will be built gradually, almost without being noticed.

I believe the people will continue improving, begin by happenstance to
converge in the appointed place, and the city will spring up around it (this
is especially plausible if you believe other End Times revelation that
indicates people will be forced to flee most populated places). Temples will
be built to accommodate the population. Eventually the Church will move HQ
there. Around this time there may be a formal call or encouragement for people
to come out to the center place in a reasonable, orderly manner, as they're
able.

Yes, the Priesthood has to be involved to a certain extent, but that part will
occur automatically as the people qualify. We already see that with temple
building; the First Presidency designates places for new temples if they
believe the Saints are qualified to care for one. The same pattern will be
followed here. As the people in this place improve, the Law of Consecration
will begin to be practiced, the people's hearts will be prepared, and the
Church will facilitate it within its existing structure by expanding the
relevant bishopric's responsibilities to the full breadth of their scriptural
mandate.

So yes, the Priesthood has to be there to provide some of the edifices and
oversee some of the practices. But it will be there once the people are ready,
and it's not going to happen all at once.

The only way that anyone can _actually_ work to build Zion is to make
themselves, and work to influence those around them to be, worthy to live
there.

I'm as TBM as they come, so if you have contradictory evidence, I'd be
interested in reviewing it.

------
sandworm101
>>> Rooftop farms will make use of advanced techniques drawn from marijuana
cultivation, and box-shaped greenhouses will improve yields and prevent the
spread of disease and insects.

So many of these grand plans do not appreciate the manpower necessary to
harvest crops. If you want to do everything by hand, in tiny batches without
the advantages of large mechanized devices, 90+% of the people are going to be
engaged primarily in cultivation. That might have been fine 200+ years ago,
but not today.

The problem with implementation is not one of planning, but of wants and
needs. Does everyone here, or at least 90% of you, want to be a farmer?
Growing your own tomatoes on the balcony is fine when you are a 20-somthing
kid. Try growing enough for you, your partner, three kids, gran and grandpa,
the dog ... suddenly those big greenhouses and giant JohnDeer harvesters are
looking a little less evil.

------
clavalle
I hope he doesn't have a repeat of the The Mormon War of 1838 where Mormons
tried to massively settle areas and then take over the government of the area
and mold that government according to their own values with little
consideration of the current residents.

There are things that are highly concerning:

'A plat, says Hall, will be subject to state and regional laws, but will also
be overseen by a board and heirachries of leaders with, it appears, strong
Mormon Family values.'

'Families and individuals who wish to join must invest their net worth...'

'Those who start Vista Bizzes will be given startup funds by thte community
but must surrender their IP rights. They also must agree to put nearly all
their profits back into the community in exchance for what Hall calls
"dividends" \-- payouts from overall wealth earned by the plat businesses.'

I don't say this lightly, but how is this not a plan for building a Communist
cult with an explicit plan to centralize power of the plats, presumably to
Hall himself?

~~~
googletazer
It sounds more like an Israeli kibutz, not a bad model for people who
voluntarily go for it.

~~~
Asooka
Unfortunately people who are born into it don't get a choice.

~~~
glibgil
could be said about literally anything

------
NKCSS
I found it odd that several brands were mentioned where it adds nothing to the
story; feels like product placement in soap opera's. e.g. Moleskin and Toyota;
anyone know if they are actually getting paid for putting in those brand
names?

~~~
nickledave
Knowing that someone uses Moleskine notebooks adds nothing to the story? To
me, it says a lot. Writers are taught to be specific, in part because it keeps
a story interesting and makes it more vivid. I'd attribute the details to that
over paid product placement. But then again I'm not an "idea man" who ignores
inconvenient details when they can't be reconciled with my amazing vision
based on something a lunatic scribbled on an 18th century cocktail napkin

~~~
NKCSS
You could just as well write "Italian-made luxury notebook"; this had the
benefit of being understandable internationally (for people who don't know the
brand) or long after the company is closed.

------
jonah
Maybe he should apply to YC New Cities. ;)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11987032](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11987032)

------
Taylor_OD
I grew up in Vermont. Friends that still live there have been telling me about
this. The biggest potential problem is that he will be able to take over the
town and outvote those who have lived there for years. Like many places in
Vermont there is likely only one road that runs through the town and many are
worried there will be issue once this man owns all the land around it. But
there is quite a few other established cults in Vermont. I assume it will end
happening and not being that big of a deal. Vermonters MO is to leave people
alone and let them do what they want.

------
douche
This seems like an insane thing to do in that part of Vermont. TFA doesn't
have a map anywhere in it, but this is on the eastern edge of Vermont, near
Hanover, NH, and Queechee, VT, except slightly north and farther away from
those islands of quasi-civilization. I went to school near there, and spent
almost a month building trail on the AT right around this area one summer.
It's a backwards, old-timey redneck New England farming community, that
reminds me far too much of my home in the Sandy River valley of Maine (aka I
would love to live there and be a subsistence farmer...)

------
cookiecaper
The link to Mormonism is incredibly tenuous here. It seems that Hall's plans
look vaguely like a grid, and so did Joseph Smith's. That's about the limit of
the connection.

~~~
jonah
He's a Mormon and the idea is _inspired by_ Smith's writings though.

Seems like a fairly strong case of resurrecting and updating some of old plans
just like if someone wanted to build a Greek city based on some old writings.

(Not a Mormon and don't have any horses in this race, just find the push to
distance these plans from Mormonism odd.)

~~~
cookiecaper
Joseph's plat was not a "plan". It was a record of something he thought he
saw. It was specific to a time and a place. The inscription recited in the
linked article to "spread this throughout the world" is made contingent upon
it actually being reflective of the layout of Zion in the next clause, and was
intended for a time when Zion is a real thing.

I want to distance these plans from Mormonism simply because the project has
no meaningful relationship to it. There is no problem whatsoever with Hall
drawing inspiration from an old document drawn out by Joseph Smith et al, I
take no umbrage with that. The issue is the attempt to pretend that it is some
realization of Joseph's intent or visions, some significant step forward in
the creation of the Zion of scripture (which, for the record, is mostly
defined in the Bible).

NewVistas is one man's plan for a city he thinks will work well. He may even
believe the plan has some divine sanction over it, which is fine. I wish him
luck in his attempts to lawfully build his ideal city.

What I do _not_ wish to see is the false association, the false significance,
ascribed to this project, merely based on Hall's assertion that he drew
inspiration from a document authored by Smith. It creates the false impression
that Mormons will accept this as religiously significant, and they don't and
won't, because it isn't.

~~~
jonah
The sense I'm getting from what you're saying is that this plan to create a
"Zion" is like various Christian groups doing X or Y to hasten the Second
Coming of Christ?

Also, if you have a minute, I'd love to hear your understanding of what the
real Zion will be. (Honest curiosity.)

~~~
slv77
Just throwing in some thoughts...

Mormon eschatology is pretty thin but the core beliefs are that the people are
of "one heart and one mind" and that "there are no poor among them".

Specifically this mean that Zion can only be built from "within" and not by
force of arms and an economic system not based on self interest but on "love
thy neighbors as thyself".

Early Mormon's made attempts in Kirtland Ohio and Far West Missiouri which
mostly failed due to rampant speculation and broader economic panics. Some of
the ideas were adopted in Nauvoo, Illinois and later is small communities in
Utah by Brigham Young.

Some of these experiments yielded later economic benefits because it allowed
the Mormon's to divorce their economic system somewhat from gold (which was I
short supply). While trades with non-Mormons would need to be settled with
gold trade between Mormons could be settled with script that could be
exchanged for goods at the "bishop's storehouse." Tradesmen and famers would
sell items to the storehouse and get back script which they could then use to
buy finsished good or services.

This created a currency that was functionally backed by finished goods and
commodities and was immune to speculation and banking system panics that were
common at the time.

------
keeganjw
As someone who lives not to far from here can I say, this is nuts. Mega-city
and Vermont are opposites. It just seems crazy that someone with tons of money
and nothing to spend it on can just walk in and try to build a city in the
middle of nowhere and where everybody there besides him wants it that way.

~~~
stephengillie
Could you provide specific details?

~~~
keeganjw
The issue for me isn't him being Mormon or if he wanted to build a little
community at a religious site. For me, the issue is that he bought up a
community to impose his vision and his will on everyone there. No one there
asked for this. It'd be upsetting if anyone of any background tried this same
thing. He's not working with the community. He's trying to demolish it to
build his own. That's incredibly selfish and arrogant. He tries to justify it
saying it will be sustainable and a model for the future. But he is in no way
working with the community. I think his ideas are admirable but he's going
about it all the wrong way. He should have looked for a community wanting
change and worked with them to make it better. It should be a collaborative
process with compromise, not imperialistic.

------
jaytaylor
Quote from TFA:

 _One Vista Biz, called Medic, is developing a water-efficient toilet that
also measures blood pressure, weight, and overall health by using sensors and
sampling what passes through it. Hall hopes insurance companies will
eventually cover the costs of installing such toilets at companies to track
worker health._

This seems like a blatant invasion/abuse of privacy. Not to mention requiring
people to give up their net worth and surrender all IP to live at the place.

~~~
morgante
I don't think people who go into these kinds of "communities" really have much
desire for privacy. He's basically planning a commune.

~~~
chrisra
Not sure what's implied by commune, but it seems like he welcomes people of
other faiths in the community, even in leadership positions.

------
DiabloD3
Even though I'm not a Mormon, I kind of wish him luck. The plan is crazy, but
I want to see what happens when its implemented.

------
Alex3917
The irony is that Vermont is already basically its own utopian community,
where the culture is that development never gets approved unless it's being
done by a resident of the state. Oh and you're not considered a resident
unless you've been there at least generations. If Hall moves there now, maybe
they'll let his great grandkids start building it. (If they can get the ski
mountains to sell them any water rights, which isn't likely.)

~~~
morgante
That's a gross distortion.

The state is very far from being a utopia, and new development does get
routinely approved (though it can be controversial). We do tend to oppose
giant chains or people trying to push systems onto the state.

~~~
Alex3917
Utopia just means 'non-existent place.' Which I feel like fairly describes the
state, given that they only survive by giving out tons of speeding tickets to
non-residents and jacking up their property taxes.

~~~
morgante
I don't really feel like defending my state on Hacker News, but I would like a
citation for the notion that we survive by giving out tons of speeding
tickets. At the very least, income tax is a much bigger contributor than
speeding tickets.

------
aetch
I was disappointed when this was not about a new game called "Mormon Tycoon".

------
hubert123
The words "horrified" and "terrified" are thrown around too much these days.

------
porker
As non-US, non-Mormon, I thought Utah was their favourite state. Never
realised Joseph Smith was from Vermont. So what's their connection with Utah?

~~~
jessaustin
Utah was a literal hell on earth: desert, rocks, salt lakes, extremely remote.
Think Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote. Few Americans wanted it, so when the
Mormons pushed their wheelbarrows (no shit!) there, they found no one
disgusted enough with nontraditional Mormon family structures to run them off
as previous communities had. The Mormons weren't super thrilled with Utah
either, but through years of hard work they made it somewhat livable.

~~~
ythl
Without the mormons, Utah would likely be identical to Wyoming - barren and
empty with no major airports, but perhaps an interstate or 2 to get you
through as quickly as possible.

~~~
jessaustin
Wyoming has trees, though.

------
acd
Sustainable cities sounds like the future. Low carbon emissions and no cars in
the city center so the air is fresh.

Humans benefit from living among trees. The value of trees can be seen of
property prices in New York where central park is highly valued.
[http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/what-is-a-tree-
worth](http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/what-is-a-tree-worth)

------
trcollinson
As a very active member of the LDS (Mormon) faith (former Missionary, active
weekly attender, holder of a volunteer calling, etc), as a person who lives in
Utah, and as someone with business and investment experience, I'll give a few
thoughts. You can take them for what they are worth knowing my background.

First of all, in my area, people who talk like Mr. Hall generally scare the
daylights out of us. I work with some rather wealthy Mormon investors
(Peterson's, Sorenson's, Marriott's, Romney's) in a technical capacity and I
have never run into Mr. Hall. But I have met plenty of people who believe they
are resurrecting some idea from Joseph Smith. They generally use these sorts
of ideological fallacies to attempt to extract investment money from well
meaning but less than experienced middle class Mormon "investors" (read:
retirees with 401k's and pensions). It's sad but in Utah one of the best
places to find a crook or a fraud is in your church congregation.

Second, there was a time early in church history when Mormon's had a really
hard time finding a safe place to live. There are a few reasons for this (in
the world according to me, again take it with a grain of salt). In the early
days of the church, Mormon's would ALL move together. Look at Nauvoo, IL, as a
good example. It started out as a single road village that was in essentially
the swamp lands along the Mississippi River and in no time grew to tens of
thousands of people who all thought very similar to one another, and more
importantly controlled politics together. That had to be scary for the
residents of villages, counties, and states that we would move into. So people
fought back against the Mormons. Of course there were also some horrible
massacres against Mormons [1] [2]. Nevertheless, moving together, planning
communities, and sustaining ourselves was a big deal at the time.

Now, things have changed. The church actively teaches that you are to build up
the church community where you are. You are to participate in local and
national politics according to your own conscious and education. We should not
all gather in one spot but help in our communities bother civicly and
religiously. I have not heard a Church leader in public or private in my
lifetime even hint at the idea of moving together to a planned community or
"Utopia".

One final note. Mormon's (myself included) are generally very conservative.
There is no doubt about that. With that, one of the things that really stuck
out in the article was this idea that anyone moving to this community would
give up all they had for the greater good in some communist style ownership
and profit sharing scheme. That is nearly laughable. Many of the more wealthy
church members I know are generous and knowledgable philanthropists but they
are not going to suddenly wake up and say "A ha! A scroll from Joseph Smith
which says we should make planned communities and turn over all of our wealth
to said community!" [3] Mormon's are conservative and often unapologetic
capitalists.

This is either someones delusion or someones horrible scam.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haun%27s_Mill_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haun%27s_Mill_massacre)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Executive_Order_44](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Executive_Order_44)

[3] Yes there is some historical precedence for a communistic Mormon idea
called the United Order, aka the United Order of Enoch, which is honestly
where some of Mr. Hall's ideas came from. There are some within the Church who
believes we will at some point live in this way. The idea is well outside of
the scope of my comment here and suffice it to say, the United Order cannot be
overseen by some random guy who read a document in a library.

~~~
joshontheweb
> one of the things that really stuck out in the article was this idea that
> anyone moving to this community would give up all they had for the greater
> good in some communist style ownership and profit sharing scheme. That is
> nearly laughable.

I know you added a footnote to this but how is it laughable? That is exactly
what the law of consecration was/is. It has never been denounced that I know
of. It was postponed due to the saints inability to follow it. Afaik, mormons
still believe that the law of consecration is a divine construct and will be
brought back once the saints are faithful enough to obey.

> We should not all gather in one spot but help in our communities bother
> civicly and religiously. I have not heard a Church leader in public or
> private in my lifetime even hint at the idea of moving together to a planned
> community or "Utopia".

Really? I was always taught that in the last days all of the saints will be
called to gather in Zion (Missouri). That sounds pretty similar. In fact I
used to know people in the mormon church that had 50 gallon barrels of gas
stashed away for when armageddon hits and they need to b-line it for Zion.

I know that what this guy is doing doesn't fit into the Mormon
structure/hierarchy because it isn't coming from the top but it isn't that
these ideas are coming from left field.

If you want I can provide sources for this stuff but anyone raised in the
church has heard these ideas since day one and I know that you have too.

~~~
trcollinson
> I know you added a footnote to this but how is it laughable?

That's a good question and you are right. I also happen to believe in the Law
of Consecration (aka The United Order of Enoch). However, the fact that Mr.
Hall would suggest it is the laughable part.

It is exactly for the reason you stated "I know that what this guy is doing
doesn't fit into the Mormon structure/hierarchy". Exactly. People can decide
whatever they would like about my faith and my deeply held beliefs, as well as
those of my religion. But my faith and beliefs go far deeper than "Someday we
will live the Law of Consecration". My personal faith says that the structure
and hierarchy of our religion is built and managed by God himself and that he
will direct the work involved with the Law of Consecration in his own time and
own ways and that I will know when that time is right because of my faith and
closeness to Him. A random church member cannot bring about the Law of
Consecration.

> Really? I was always taught that in the last days all of the saints will be
> called to gather in Zion (Missouri).

This is an interesting one. I wouldn't say I was "taught" this as much as I
was told this from time to time by people who were, again, rather laughable.
This is such a common LDS church myth that the church itself put out an
explanation with some great references [1]. There are plenty of crazy people
in the world, Mormon and non-Mormon. I have a neighbor who believes a 2 year
supply (another suggestion the church gives) actually means a 2 year supply of
ammunition for his firearms because he believes this will be "the only
currency after the great destruction". I personally keep a two year supply
more in line with what is suggested by Dave Ramsey. To each their own, I
guess.

Now, just to curb some of the comments that I might receive from this. These
are my beliefs and this is my faith which I have gained over a large swath of
my life. I did not gain it randomly and I understand others might not believe
what I do and may think I am crazy/delusional/"a sheeple" or whatnot. I
understand you might not agree. I am fine with that, my faith doesn't require
you to.

[1] [https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/04/missouri-
myths?lang=eng](https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/04/missouri-myths?lang=eng)

------
probinso
I'm really disappointed this is not a new video game

~~~
arxpoetica
I'm pretty sure New Vistas is really just a new place to play Pokemon Go.

------
logfromblammo
That map drawn by Joseph Smith looks awfully similar to a 5280x5280 .PNG I
made a while ago, minus the 6-lane expressway and the 5-lane arterial roads.

Based on that thought experiment, my opinion is that there is no way this guy
is ever going to get a town of 20000 people in one square mile of Vermont and
still sustain a modernized economy.

In my image, I tessellated a square mile into 9600 rectangles, each 88'x33'.
928 of those rectangles became 50'-wide arterial roads flanked by 8'-wide
sidewalks. 320 of those rectangles became a 176'-wide expressway corridor with
8 double-crossover overpass interchanges to the arterial roads. (These road
areas would also have utility conduits underneath the road surface.) The
remaining 8352 lots have an identical access easement for 18'-wide streets,
20' on each side for perpendicular parking, and another 4' on each side for
sidewalks.

I assumed 60% of building lots would be residential buildings, with average
occupancy of 4 people per residential lot, for a maximum of 20045 residents,
with a total of 15776 on-street parking spaces, and 223 of the 640 acres left
over for parks, commercial buildings, and government buildings.

The image ignores potential geographical obstructions, so the only way you
could get all 29 local access streets, all 8 arterial roads, and the
expressway to go through is to build on flat, featureless land, as one might
find somewhere between Wichita, Minneapolis, and Indianapolis. In Vermont,
there's no way.

And if you are intending to build a city _in America_ without reserving at
least 1.8 parking spaces per household, you're going to have problems. Some of
the non-residential lots would have to be dedicated parking lots or garages,
because the non-residential buildings need more than 1.8 parking spaces per
unit cell. About a third of your permanent "residents" are going to be cars,
and half of your money-importing commercial visitors will be cars. If you plan
your whole city around temples, rather than truck routes, sewers, and optical
fiber backbones, you're doing it wrong.

~~~
milesokeefe
>That map drawn by Joseph Smith looks awfully similar to a 5280x5280 .PNG I
made a while ago

Do you mind uploading it?

>without reserving at least 1.8 parking spaces per household, you're going to
have problems

For those curious, SF has 805,235 households / 441,541 public parking spots =
~0.548. Both numbers as of 2010.

------
OrthoMetaPara
This was tried 200 years ago, and it fizzled
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Harmony,_Indiana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Harmony,_Indiana))

~~~
adanatturack
This has been tried throughout most of human history (and often succeeded, by
reasonable measures of success.) See [http://www.ic.org/](http://www.ic.org/)
and [http://www.communalstudies.org/](http://www.communalstudies.org/)

------
ansible
I have my doubts about the social structure proposed, though that is
interesting too.

However, the actual physical layout is pretty neat. Though I prefer that there
be some provisions for existing vehicles rather than rely on pod technology
that hasn't been developed / deployed yet. But I would definitely want to have
any motor vehicles relegated be considered secondary users and their use kept
at least a little inconvenient. Rather than with current urban planning, where
vehicles are the primary user, and pedestrians are an afterthought.

I would love to live in a walkable community.

------
coldcode
Most Utopian visions eventually lead to Dystopian reality. The French
Revolution is nice historical lesson in how seemingly good ideas can lead to
the opposite.

~~~
splouk
What do you think of the American Revolution?

~~~
hnal943
I was just listening to the Mad Dogs and Englishmen podcast. In the most
recent episode they point out that the American Revolution was different
precisely because it wasn't a make-a-society-from-whole-cloth revolution like
most, but a return to the ancient rights they had previously enjoyed as
British citizens. In the French revolution, they changed everything including
the calendar. The hubris involved in that kind of revolution rarely works out.

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
Hall is an engineer. So why is he trying several new ideas at once? Is it
hubris or just civil engineering?

------
zekevermillion
This seems like a control fantasy. Convince a bunch of rootless and naively
optimistic folks to live in your planned community, where every aspect of
their lives -- personal and economic -- is supervised, and they live in tiny
boxes. Oh sure, residents are free to leave anytime, but will have to fight to
extract their assets and may be shunned by their erstwhile friends, family,
and colleagues.

~~~
herge
Sounds like a startup!

------
huherto
> Hall hired Ellis Mills Public Affairs, and kept buying land.

Is this the modern white collar equivalent of paying for protection ?

------
rfreytag
> "...each plat should house 15,000 to 20,000 people within one square
> mile..."

15,000 to 20,000 people per square mile means 43.11 to 37.34 sq-feet/person.
That is below the dimensions of most tiny houses.

EDIT: please correct me in a comment if I am mistaken.

5280'/mile square mile is 5280' x 5280' = 27,878,400 sq' 27,878,400 sq' /
20,000 persons = 1,393.92 sq'/person

Yup - you are right. I was off by ~2 orders of magnitude. I took the square
root one more time for no reason. I ended up calculating the length of the
walls of the (multistory?) box you get to live in - 37.34' to 43.11'.

Thanks.

~~~
Retric
Not sure where you get that.

Seems off a square mile is 640 acres an acre is 43560sf. So 640 * 43560 /
20,000 = ~1400 sf of land per person. Multi story buildings would increase it,
and area not part of buildings would decrease it. But, overall it's not that
crazy.

------
0xdeadbeefbabe
> already had more than 150 engineers working on technology

That's not always a good thing. It's funny people are impressed by facts like
these.

------
cpdean
I clicked on this hoping that it was a game about organizing a religion.

I am thoroughly disappointed.

------
forkandwait
My start up idea: Take all the social aspects of Mormonism, delete the
theology (magic underwear), make gender roles symmetric, and allow gay people
as long as they otherwise follow the rules. Then charge a membership fee,
maybe keeping it under 10% of your income in order to remain competitive.
Perhaps there can be an Uber-style app...

I think Mormonism/ LDS is possibly the most innovative social experiments in
the USA in the last 200 years, even when stood up against such gems as the
Land Grant Colleges, public schooling, public health, etc. You just have to
see past the mystical bullshit (as you always must if you want to understand
what is powerful in a religious movement).

