
25,000 Dead Bees Found In Car Park Amid Probe - will_brown
http://news.sky.com/story/1106549/dead-bees-25000-found-in-car-park-amid-probe
======
jmharvey
Can anyone recommend a good source for background information about bees?
25,000 sounds like a huge number, but some quick googling (no idea how
reliable the sources are) seems to indicate that's about the number of bees in
a hive.

I'd like to have a better idea of whether this story is closer to,
"Exterminators spray beehive, all the bees die" or "Colony collapse disorder
threatens the existence of all life on earth"

~~~
sageikosa
A dead deer found on the side of the road in Pennsylvania has more biomass.

~~~
sliverstorm
Deer don't pollinate flowers.

~~~
sageikosa
25000 bees are a minute fraction of the worldwide total. One deer is a minute
fraction of the worldwide total, I'd assert their impact is on the same order
of magnitude. Can we all stop examining local news and panicking globally?

If you started finding lots of deer dead in the woods, I might be concerned;
on the side of the road, not so much.

If you started finding bees dead in their hive (which does happen, but not in
this case), I might be concerned; finding them dead by bee toxic trees that
have been recently sprayed with insecticide, not so much.

~~~
sliverstorm
_Can we all stop examining local news and panicking globally?_

Am I coming across as panicky? I don't really see that... I'm just pointing
out that deer don't have the same keystone role in large ecosystems as major
pollinators.

~~~
sageikosa
My point has been and continues to be that the 25000 bees of the referenced
story are not indicative of a major catastrophe, they are indicative of a
local anomaly.

------
jamieb
2001: Planted Linden Trees. (hmmm. maybe toxic to bees)

2002: no dead bees.

2003: no dead bees.

...

2012: no dead bees.

2013:6/17 Sprayed Lindren trees with insecticides toxic to bees

2013:6/20 25,000 dead fucking bees

Conclusion: "It could be because Linden Trees are toxic to bees."

~~~
socillion
The insecticide was Safari (Dinotefuran) which is toxic to bees, and it has
been confirmed that it killed them.

[http://www.opb.org/news/blog/ecotrope/state-confirms-
pestici...](http://www.opb.org/news/blog/ecotrope/state-confirms-pesticide-
killed-thousands-of-bees-in-wilsonville/)

This was also concluded a few days ago:
[http://www.opb.org/news/blog/ecotrope/xerces-society-
wilsonv...](http://www.opb.org/news/blog/ecotrope/xerces-society-wilsonville-
bees-died-from-pesticide-poisoning/)

------
genwin
Insecticides might be killing insects? This must be studied for a few decades,
we wouldn't want to jump to conclusions.

~~~
will_brown
It should be no surprise that bees (as pollinators) and chemical companies are
multimillion dollar/billion dollar industries within the larger agricultural
industry.

It should also be no surprise the chemical companies are paying millions of
dollars a year to special interest groups, lobbyists, PR, and "independent"
research studies - all of which suggest Colony Collapse Disorder is not
definitively linked with "insecticides", as you call them.

CCD is analogous to almost every other scientific theory that runs counter to
powerful interests and money, backed by observation, research studies,
empirical data, and plain common sense - think evolution or global warming -
science and common sense goes out the window in favor of the status quo.

~~~
akiselev
It's a real bummer. Most of the fertilizer/insecticide companies are focused
on the corn and a few other cash crop or subsidized markets. The problem is
that most of those crops self-pollinate or are pollinated by wind (like corn).

This leaves the industry at odds with the beekeeping industry which is
absolutely necessary to keep pollinating quite a few of the other crops we
actually want to EAT.

------
BadCookie
Is there a movement in the US yet to ban neocotinoids? I would like to donate
if so. I saw a few bees dying on the ground last year, but this year it seems
much worse. I've probably seen five bees dying on the ground in the last week,
and I don't even spend that much time outside! (This is in the East Bay near
San Francisco by the way.)

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btbuildem
"Workers plan to wrap bee-proof netting around the trees in an attempt to
prevent the deaths of more bees."

Gee whiz, how about NOT SPRAYING POISON ON THE TREES in the first place?!

~~~
genwin
The netting is a stop-gap measure until the experts can definitively prove
whether the insecticide sprayed on the trees kills insects.

------
joshdance
Temporary ban on neocotinoids?

------
Blahah
Please HN, let's be sensible about the bees. This is maybe the tenth story
about bees I've seen hit the front page in the last couple of months. People
seem to be absorbing the alarmist and unfounded opinion that we know what's
causing CCD.

Truth is, we simply don't know what's causing it. There are many
possibilities, and there are hundreds of research groups working on it. It has
been shown that some pesticides do affect bees. But it has also been shown
that various diseases as well as beekeeping practices have large effects.

CCD is complex, and a sky news story about a single incident of a bunch of
bees dying is no reason to start jumping to conclusions. It's interesting,
sure, but don't assume it tells us anything about CCD.

~~~
will_brown
>It has been shown that some pesticides do affect bees. But it has also been
shown that various diseases as well as beekeeping practices have large
effects.

There is no direct link demonstrated between neonicotinoids and the honey bee
syndrome known as Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). However, as the most likely
candidate, that is why a story like this is important, because it is a case
study likely to link the two. Is this story determinative? Absolutely not,
otherwise that would be the headline, "Neonicotinoids Proved to be the Smoking
Gun in CCD."

However, as to the diseases you refer to, recent research suggests that
neonicotinoids may make honey bees more susceptible to parasites and
pathogens, including the intestinal parasite Nosema, which has been implicated
as one causative factor in CCD. ([http://www.xerces.org/wp-
content/uploads/2012/03/Are-Neonico...](http://www.xerces.org/wp-
content/uploads/2012/03/Are-Neonicotinoids-Killing-Bees_Xerces-Society1.pdf))

As to the keepers theory, sure transport and handling may be blamed, but bee
keepers have been around since at least the time of the building of the
pyramids - in fact many tombs were uncovered with 2,000+ year old honey that
was eaten by the discoverers (not a bad shelf life). Nevertheless,
significantly well traveled bees tend to die at greater rates, of course this
can not account for CCD in wild colonies.

I imagine neonicotinoids will prove to be the smoking gun, but more along the
lines of nicotine and "third hand smoke" (see:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-
hand_smoke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-hand_smoke)). To complicate
matters even further, the neonicotinoids are likely to not directly cause
death, but to make bees more susceptible to diseases or parasites (as
referenced in the study above), making the diseases and parasites more
palatable candidates for the cause rather than an effect of the cause.

------
quotha
Without bees, humans wouldn't survive much more than 6 months on this planet.

~~~
digitalsushi
That's really not true. Plenty of food self pollinates. However, I wouldn't
really want to go on living without all the wonderful foods that bees provide
us with. Think matrix-meals and you're feeling it.

~~~
quotha
“The fact is that of the 100 crop species that provide 90 per cent of the
world’s food, over 70 are pollinated by bees.”- UN report.

~~~
Blahah
That is a fact, but it's misleading in this context. Most human staple foods
are cereals (grass seeds), none of which are bee pollinated. If you took only
the top 10 crop species which account for ~80% of human calorie provision, 0%
are bee pollinated.

We could very easily survive without bees, but there would be a lot less fruit
and many fewer wildflower species.

------
dbg31415
Just shocked they took the time to count all those dead bees.

~~~
DanBC
You use counting scales.

~~~
Blahah
Or just normal scales: count out 200 bees and weigh them collectively. Divide
by 200 to get the average bee weight. Now weigh all the bees collected and
divide by average bee weight to get estimated number.

------
andyl
Pesticides wipe out beehives all the time.

One of my hives was destroyed last year.

~~~
sologoub
If you are in the business, perhaps you can provide some perspective on this.
According to news reports for the last few months, there has been an epidemic
of bees dying off. Can't recall for sure, but figures of 40%-75% loss have
been floating around.

If true, this seems very significant. If we leave out the obvious emotional
negatives, the economic fall out could be monstrous in the form of much higher
prices and severe supply constraint on everything from fruit/pollinator-
dependent food, to honey and products made from honey/beeswax. Not to mention
farms going out of business due to poor harvest.

~~~
tjohns
This has been going on for more than a few months -- at least since 2006. Some
countries are starting to ban the insecticides suspected to be responsible.

More info:
[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder)

~~~
sologoub
Fascinating... and I'm guessing there isn't any immediate action to limit the
use of the suspected substance?

~~~
tjohns
Well, like I said... there are some countries (EU) that are starting to
regulate these pesticides, at least on a trial basis.

But over here in the US, not really. Partly this is because we've only
relatively recently started to get good insight into the problem. And it's
still controversial.

For a long time, we thought it might be caused by a disease or parasite; these
are a big concern for beekeepers and an easy way to lose a hive under normal
circumstances.

There's even some theories that claim it's caused by feeding the bees high-
fructose corn syrup. This is a common practice to support hives during the
winter, to make up for the honey reserves removed during the summer.

These pesticides are strongly suspected to interfere with bees, but we're
still not sure they're _the_ cause of CCD. It will be worth watching what
happens in the EU.

------
knappe
Why is this on the front page?

~~~
digitalsushi
Because for some pathetic reason, we're apparently still on the cusp of
accepting that we are probably almost sure why the bees are dying, but a huge
swath of us are turning a blind eye out of scientific ignorance or out of
bribery. And our job as literate, scientific folk is to get outraged about
this and use our cute metaphorical clout to make these other people, the
majority, understand that the world is GOING TO SUCK someday if we kill the
bees off enough to stop pollinating all the crazy delicious things we like to
eat. Even if we have our heads up our asses over the supposed cause of this,
we as an entire planet should still be completely paying attention, livid, and
figuring out what the actual cause is. Because odds are good it's something
humans did. If you're not upset about the bees dying, you are not thinking it
through enough.

~~~
Blahah
This is mostly hyperbolic and wrong. You're right that bees are great, we
should all care, and it would suck if they all died. You are wrong that we
know what's causing it or that it's some nefarious scheme.

Firstly, nobody is turning a blind eye out of scientific ignorance, and to
suggest bribery is involved is just ridiculous. Every time an industry has a
problem that's being investigated by scientists, people start making bribery
claims. It's absolute nonsense, especially in this case where there is a very
active debate in the literature and many hundreds of labs working
independently. Newsflash: agricultural corporations have almost no impact on
research outputs. They fund a small amount of research, and often the results
that get published are not what they wanted. They have _no_ say on what gets
published, except in perhaps a handful of cases where they _illegally_ exert
pressure, but I've never seen such a case. As a plant scientist, I find the
idea of any company using money to influence the results of academic research
completely laughable. They might use money to influence the research question,
but not the answer.

Secondly, we really are _not_ almost sure why the bees are dying. The evidence
is very strong that there are many causes contributing to CCD, and it keeps
getting more complex with time. What's clear is that it's not a single cause,
and will not be simple to fix, and is not just about the insecticides.

~~~
anon1385
I don't think the issue is that scientists are being lobbied or directly
influenced by the chemical or agricultural industries. They don't need to do
that since politicians (and farmers and the public) are quite happy to ignore
published science.

>nobody is turning a blind eye out of scientific ignorance

Well the UK government demonstrated scientific incompetence, if I'm begin
charitable[1]. I find it hard to believe that the highly experienced senior
government scientists involved in promoting this study didn't recognise how
flawed it was. Of course we have an Environment minister who denies climate
change so it's hard to say what his crazy motivations are on this issue; it
may just be personal bias due to his background as an extremely wealthy land
owner and farmer.

>Secondly, we really are not almost sure why the bees are dying. The evidence
is very strong that there are many causes contributing to CCD, and it keeps
getting more complex with time. What's clear is that it's not a single cause,
and will not be simple to fix, and is not just about the insecticides.

This is all true, but it's not a reason to ignore the effects of pesticides
that have been measured. It also needs to be remembered that this isn't just
about honey bees and CCD or even just bees. Pollinators of all types are in
huge decline. The media and campaigners seem to concentrate on bees a lot
because they have a group of humans (bee keepers) that will lobby for them.

[1] [http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/damian-carrington-
blog...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/damian-carrington-
blog/2013/jun/05/bees-neonicotinoids-pesticides)

