

Apple invests €1.7B in renewable energy data centres in Denmark and Ireland - FredericJ
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2015/02/23Apple-to-Invest-1-7-Billion-in-New-European-Data-Centres.html?1424678531

======
mclemme
The IT spokesperson from the same party as the former and current mayor of
Viborg wrote a very critiqued article about making it attractive to build data
centers in Denmark on the 6th of February[1].

Now when this deal is public he will surely boast about his brilliant
foresight in the upcoming election...

There's of course no definite proof that he knew about this deal at the time
of the article, but the timing couldn't be better.

[1] = [http://www.version2.dk/blog/tid-til-danske-
datacentre-76979](http://www.version2.dk/blog/tid-til-danske-datacentre-76979)
(in Danish)

------
silvestrov
I'm surprised they placed one in Denmark since Netherlands and West-Germany
(ie near Düsseldorf) would be much more central Europe for internet
connections.

~~~
quonn
Maybe, because Denmark has a huge supply of wind energy?

~~~
olavgg
Actually I believe Apple is going for a long term renewable energy strategy
like Amazon, Google and Microsoft. The additional electricity from wind(and
maybe solar) can also be sold into the danish/European energy market.

The big picture I see, is that if you look at the Nordic countries, you see
that Finland and Sweden has several (unpopular)nuclear power plants. Denmark
has a mix of everything, mostly coal and wind. And Norway get most of its
electricity from hydro.

Google has built a data center in Finland, Facebook in Sweden and now Apple
will build one in Denmark. And I also believe Microsoft is building a data
center in Finland.

But few are considering Norway and that may be because electricity in Norway
is already very cheap and neither wind or solar can compete with hydro. And
you want additional profit by selling energy to the energy market.

Selling electricity is a good sustainable long term investment.

~~~
ptaipale
There's wind and other renewables (wave/tide) in Denmark, but 48 % of
electricity production is coal, so that's the marginal increase of production
that Apple [edit: not Google] is actually going to use.

BTW, in Finland nuclear isn't that unpopular, there's currently a new site
under construction.

(There is some trouble building it up, though: because the opponents of
nuclear power will put just as much resistance to a site regardless of whether
it is a 160 MW or 1600 MW plant, the planners make the site as big as
possible, and the suppliers (in this case Areva) haven't considered this in
the technology. The local nuclear safety authority is also ultra-safety-
conscious, which is good in itself, except when slows down the deployment of a
new, quite safe site so that the energy is bought off a Chernobyl-type thing
near Leningrad).

------
MrJagil
Interestingly, we don't even have Apple stores in Denmark yet, despite a
wealthy and seemingly voracious market. Guess we don't promise enough growth
opportunity.

~~~
PMan74
Don't have them in Ireland either, just a few authorised resellers. I guess a
population of ~5 million isn't sufficient to support.

~~~
csomar
HongKong has 7 million and has 3 Apple Stores (
[http://www.apple.com/hk/en/retail/storelist/](http://www.apple.com/hk/en/retail/storelist/)
)

I think it depends on sales, and the popularity of the location.

~~~
kszx
HK is a potential retail destination for > 1 bn consumers in East Asia.

Mainland Chinese cross the border and come back with bags full of Apple
products (in addition to LV bags etc.).

------
jafingi
Awesome! Living in Denmark, this is huge news!

I would have thought they would place it in Germany or the Netherlands, but in
Denmark we can provide the datacenter with 100% green energy, and this is one
of the main concerns for Apple.

I wonder what the 300 people would work with, since just maintaining the
datacenter wouldn't require that many people. So hope they're moving other
jobs to Denmark, and accumulate different job positions there.

~~~
kristiandupont
I am Danish too and I am not sure why we should be able to offer 100% green
energy better than the German or the Dutch..?

~~~
jafingi
Of course not - but Viborg has plenty of energy, and a brand new 400 kV
connection [1]. Would be ideal by Apple to use that, and they've probably
gotten a good offer.

[1] [http://energinet.dk/DA/ANLAEG-OG-
PROJEKTER/Anlaegsprojekter-...](http://energinet.dk/DA/ANLAEG-OG-
PROJEKTER/Anlaegsprojekter-el/Ny-400-kilovolt-ledning-Kassoe-
Tjele/Sider/default.aspx)

------
husted
The Danish plant is about an hours drive from me. There's not much IT related
going on in that area so it's good to see that someone is willing to invest.

------
artpop
This flew under the radar for me but AWS has “a long-term commitment to
achieve 100% renewable energy usage for our global infrastructure footprint.”

~~~
sarreph
Source? Highly relevant to my interests...

EDIT:

Forgot that was a quote, and used Google — for anyone who's interested:
[http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/sustainable-
energy/](http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/sustainable-energy/)

~~~
tschwarz
Interesting that they see renewable and not some term that envelops nuclear,
given Bezos' investments in the latter.

------
therockhead
I live in Galway, what type of jobs are created in data centres? I'm guessing
there's very little, if any software development.

~~~
alphadevx
Might be some devops, unless it's going to be managed remotely.

------
mangecoeur
And most definitely not a move designed to sweeten the European Union's mood
after their investigation into Apple Europe's (allegedly) illegal tax deals :P

([http://europa.eu/rapid/press-
release_IP-14-663_en.htm](http://europa.eu/rapid/press-
release_IP-14-663_en.htm))

~~~
toomuchtodo
If you have money overseas that you don't want to repatriate because of tax
rates (personal opinion: tax rates aren't too high for repatriation), would it
not make sense to spend that money on renewables overseas for energy you're
going to consume anyway?

------
jkot
Does anyone have more information? I lived in Galway for several years and it
sounds interesting.

> _recover land previously used for growing and harvesting non-native trees
> and restore native trees to Derrydonnell Forest_

Sad to hear that. There are not that many trees in Ireland.

~~~
talideon
What?! That's a good thing! Are you sure you read that right?

Frankly, we need more native tree cover, and that's what they're planning on
doing, and getting rid of those damned ugly conifers that are only good for
wood harvesting. Personally, I'd like to see more marginal land being returned
into proper deciduous forests. The problem is that people have difficulty
getting to the idea that more forest cover would actually be beneficial to the
unforested land as it would protect it from the wind, thus preventing soil
erosion, which is an issue, especially in the west and northwest. I'd a
discussion about this in a pub over Christmas, and the arguments against
boiled down to people not wanting to lose grazing land for sheep, which is
reasonable enough, and that forest can be breeding grounds for midges, which
is less reasonable.

~~~
secfirstmd
Yeh but in my experience in Ireland, the midges are mainly a problem in the
non-native and fast growing species found in the "managed" Coillte forrests.

------
q2
Can anyone say the type of renewable energy: Is it wind based?

~~~
_delirium
"100% renewable" in Denmark usually means a mixture of Danish wind and
Swedish/Norwegian hydro. The wind power is highly variable so only fills
Danish energy needs on some days, but Denmark has the fortune to be near very
large hydro installations further north, which are relatively easy to flex,
and provide the remainder via high-capacity links. (For customers not needing
"100% renewable", the load is also managed using Denmark's thermal power
plants and Sweden's nuclear plants.)

This somewhat unusual arrangement does mean that wholesale spot electric
prices are hugely variable, ranging from near-free on high-wind days, to
around €0.025/kWh on normal days, to above €0.04/kWh on low-wind days [1]. But
you can reduce that risk through long-term contracts.

[1] Forecast for the coming week (look at the DK1/DK2 rows):
[http://www.nordpoolspot.com/](http://www.nordpoolspot.com/)

------
q2
>>> Apple supports nearly 672,000 European jobs, including 530,000 jobs
directly related to the development of iOS apps.

A bit off topic and NOT just Apple related:

When corporates list such achievements as above, they need to do full
disclosure like how many old type jobs are destroyed due to their
actions/products/services and how much time it took for the effected people to
readjust to new reality.

Press statements as above -which we see from several organizations- give the
impression of all positives and no negatives which is not true. Public
companies are supposed to inform complete truth to public (since some of them
are shareholders) and statements as above are not complete truth. Their
actions may be innovation to the organization concerned but it is not for the
affected. Personally, I feel, now-a-days, modern organizations and their
executives are showing the habit of abusing the word of innovation[0] for
whatever they do.

This is not just applicable to Apple only but to every other organization in
the world. Amazon has to list how many brick and mortar stores are effected in
addition to creation of new jobs and similarly vehicle, energy companies has
to list the pollution they/their products caused across the world. Cities like
Beijing has polluted air and is it not human made through innovated products
developed few decades before? If they are proud of positives, they should feel
sorry and/or pay for negatives as applicable. Is n't it?

In some cases, measurement may not be easy or indicators/metrics are not
defined yet like "number of jobs ...etc". Governments and other competent
organizations need to define and enforce them just like enforcing in the cases
similar to harassment/discrimination/workspace issues/environmental issues.
Even reference year also needs to be defined.

Jobs alone is not indicator and it is just tip of the iceberg of the total
effect due to the actions of organizations.

[0] Some background on origin and growing popularity of the usage of the word
"innovation": [http://www.business-
standard.com/article/opinion/r-gopalakri...](http://www.business-
standard.com/article/opinion/r-gopalakrishnan-the-buzz-around-
innovation-115021901257_1.html)

~~~
Cthulhu_
> they need to do full disclosure like how many old type jobs are destroyed
> due to their actions

Except that in the case of Apple, they single-handedly created a whole new
industry (app development), empowering individuals to be able to write
software without support of, for example, an investor, publisher, or major
company backing them.

As far as I can tell, the only things that Apple and smartphones and whatnot
helped out of business was those crappy ringtone and text message subscription
services. Of course, new laws also helped with that.

You also mention Amazon, who did introduce a ton of new entry-level jobs, yes,
but if the stories coming from the order pickers are correct, they're not
really great jobs. Plus Amazon is working on making those positions obsolete
with further automation (robots and stuff).

~~~
unprepare
Smartphones also totally marginalized GPS devices, portable music players,
point and shoot cameras, portable gaming devices, heck even flashlights are
less commonly used than a decade or two ago. (of course all of these products
still exist in meaningful ways, but they are certainly a fraction of their
former market size)

You could also say that the iPhone had a direct relation to the loss of
millions of jobs at RIM/blackberry and Palm.

I don't think i agree with the parent, however, that a company should
ultimately be responsible for the losses a product can create in the economy,
that would create a huge disincentive for any kind of innovation. and frankly,
the effects of products in this way are likely incalculable.

~~~
tomjen3
Phones had cameras before they became "smart". Granted they were crappy but so
were the cheap cameras of that day.

And I am not sure your point and shoot camera market is dead. Lots of people
still don't have smart phones.

~~~
unprepare
Certainly, but an old cell phone camera wasn't a threat to a point and shoot -
with features like facial recognition, flash, zoom (whether its optical or
digital), video capabilities, expandable storage, ease of syncing with
computer, night and other various modes.

Smartphones ushered all of those features into the device you already always
carry with you.

And as i said, these markets still all exist in significant ways, but are a
fraction of what they were at their height before strong competition from cell
phones.

------
chvid
Why does it matter that your data center uses green energy?

The "green" is in the production not the consumption.

Had your center instead used a chunk of electricity from a coal plant, the
windmill produced electricity instead would be consumed by someone else in the
energy network leaving the environmental impact the same.

Had Apple instead sponsored a new windmill farm - then it would have been
different.

~~~
legulere
From the link:

> The facility is also designed to capture excess heat from equipment inside
> the facility and conduct it into the district heating system to help warm
> homes in the neighboring community.

Geography matters, as you can place your data centers where cooling is
efficient and where there is lots of renewable energy available/possible to be
harvested.

Also, a minor nitpick: please don't say windmill, wind power plants don't mill
anything.

~~~
PMan74
> Also, a minor nitpick: please don't say windmill, wind power plants don't
> mill anything.

Ha, I'm adding that to my list of pedantic points, never thought of it that
way.

------
illumen
Good work Apple.

To give some balance to a press release...

I wonder what all that tax avoided money could have bought in society, and
what the 3 billion 30% cut they took from developers could have done for those
developers. Better apps?

Compared to other electronic manufacturers Apple products do seem to have a
much longer life. Lots of people seem to use second hand Apple phones, and
laptops... but not so much for other brands.

I wonder why they didn't choose colder countries? Both Denmark and Ireland do
have some pretty cold parts. Since cooling is the main energy use, choosing
colder countries over ones where they pay less tax would have been a better
choice for the environment.

Athenry, Ireland is as far west in Europe as you can go. Meaning it is as far
away from most Europeans as possible. But I guess closer to the USA. I wonder
about why they chose there if they want to serve their communities best.

Viborg, Denmark makes more sense from a power generation point of view.
However, since the power generation is inland it is wasting land which could
be used for people and food.

~~~
pjc50
This is probably the first time someone has described the west coast of
Ireland as "not cold enough".

(More seriously, the choice of Ireland will be for tax reasons)

~~~
soneil
'tax reasons' are actually why I find this most surprising. The "Double Irish"
tax arrangement is being phased out, which has led some to worry that
companies that are only here to take advantage of it, may move on.

Seeing the complete opposite happening is very reassuring (as a local).

~~~
nigekelly
The double irish is under pressure but core Corp Tax is still 12.5%. Much
lower than anywhere else. so tax is a good reason to do this in Ireland.

In addition, Irish gov are talking about new R&D scheme which will be like
6-7% corp tax on companies that focus on R&D. Alot of European companies have
such schemes and Ireland can't be singled out for being "dodgy" with this. I
suspect Apple will benefit from this.

Of course we (being Ireland) wouldn't get all this investment if Apple (and
all the other US multinationals) was allowed to repatriate profits back to the
US without paying the draconian US corp tax of 35%.

Companies like Oracle, Apple, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Cisco have huge
amounts of cash sitting there in their balance sheets. They spend it in other
countries (and/or issue new bonds) to avoid paying the stupid 35% US corp tax.

Once the Republicans and Democrats get their act together on this, Ireland
will be screwed.

~~~
kokey
I'm sure the tax makes it competitive compared others in the same time zone
like London, Amsterdam or Berlin, but to me it seems to be succeeding in
creating a critical mass of tech skills around Dublin that can stick beyond
the taxes. If it was purely down to tax, a lot of companies could have just
moved shop to Gibraltar 4 years ago.

