
Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration - pseudolus
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-05-22/japan-begins-experiment-of-opening-to-immigration
======
laurieg
I thought it might be useful to add a comment mentioning what the changes are
in layman's terms.

Prior to the recent change, everyone working in Japan was a "skilled" worker.
There was no language requirement and essentially anyone with a degree was
eligible. This didn't cover manual labour jobs etc.

But at the same time, many young people were out working in convenience
stores, fast food restaurants etc. Turns out they were all on student visas.
With a student visa and a work permission application (essentially a rubber
stamp that is never not given) you can work up to 28 hours a week.

So the changes are trying to bring the visa system more in line with what
people are actually doing. People without degrees can actually get proper
working visas in Japan now.

> "Permanent residents are allowed to apply for Japanese citizenship after
> five years."

Technically you can apply for citizenship without permanent residence (green
card equivalent) though I don't know what your chances would be.... Also you
must give up all other citizenships.

> "Some foreigners will also marry Japanese nationals, and their children will
> thus be citizens as well. Since the new law prevents visa holders from
> bringing families with them to Japan, many of the new workers will likely be
> single people looking for spouses, making them more likely to marry locals."

This is true. In fact, by far the fastest route to permanent residence in
Japan is marriage. You can get PR in 3 years if you are married to a Japanese
national vs 10 years if you aren't.

Previously there were issues with the working conditions for people on the so-
called "trainee" visa. One of these conditions (imposed by the workplace)
included "No relationships". I hope the new visas don't come with similar
stipulations.

~~~
ioltas
> This is true. In fact, by far the fastest route to permanent residence in
> Japan is marriage. You can get PR in 3 years if you are married to a
> Japanese national vs 10 years if you aren't.

More details on that. Getting a wedding visa the first time gives 1 year. At
the second application one year later, one gets once again 1 year. At the
third application one year later, you get 3 three. At this point, you could
ask for permanent residency. So the first three years after the wedding are a
hell of paperwork, but after that there is no need to go to the immigration
office (入国管理局) which is close to Shinagawa in Tokyo.

~~~
kalleboo
> _Getting a wedding visa the first time gives 1 year. At the second
> application one year later, one gets once again 1 year. At the third
> application one year later, you get 3 three_

This is case-by-case. I went 1y-3y-5y. I've met people who got 3y on their
first.

> _but after that there is no need to go to the immigration office_

You still need to renew your physical card every 7 years (new photo etc), but
at least you no longer need to prepare all the paperwork.

~~~
marak830
Indeed preparing mine now for the 5 year and once that's done I'll be turning
around and starting the permanent visa paperwork. Finally! Lol

~~~
kalleboo
Since some of the paperwork was the same, I applied for PR alongside my second
renewal (the one that got me 5 years) to avoid multiple trips to city hall.
The 5 year spouse visa renewal took a week to be approved, the PR took 3
months. So in the end I only had the 5 year visa for 3 months :p

------
omot
As a naturalized US citizen, I had to give up my Japanese citizenship. It was
a hard decision to make since half my immediate family is still Japanese and I
still love Japan. In part I never forgave Japan that they forced me to make
this decision.

Which is why I'm excited for a more ethnically diverse Japan. As a resident of
the Bay Area I only see diversity as an advantage of introducing new thoughts
and creativity. It comes with challenges of lower trust among neighbors.
Though, I learned that through respectful interactions and an open mind the
perspectives of someone completely different shaped me into a more mature
human being, and it made me realize that my fears were only conjectures
derived from no real evidence.

In this transition to a more diverse Japan, will the world lose some of its
traditional beauty? Undoubtedly. But, I would like to argue that Japan is a
developed country where it already lost a significant amount of its
traditional culture during its modernization, and new distinctly Japanese
culture emerged from the ashes of the old.

I can't wait for the new culture that will emerge from a ethnically diverse
Japan. And hopefully they'll let me be Japanese again, as I was born there and
still dearly love it.

~~~
random42_
Did you actually had to give up on your Japanese citizenship? I know that when
taking the oath you reject all other citizenship you may have but AFAIK this
is not enforced, meaning you don't have to go to your embassy and formally
require to give up on your citizenship. Really curious to know more about
this.

~~~
omot
I actually got work in Japan. My passport was expired, and I went to renew it.
They always ask how you're staying in the states and to show evidence. At that
point my green card was expired and I only had naturalization to show. At that
point I had to give up my Japanese citizenship, in order to get a visa. I
don't remember if that was the exact reason but I was able to get away with
dual for a while. Maybe if I tried renewing it in Japan it wouldn't have been
a problem?

~~~
distantaidenn
Ouch... Hopefully Japan will change this at some point, with the increase in
international marriages. I've been living here long enough and paid enough
taxes to consider becoming a citizen. But I wouldn't trade it for my US
citizenship.

Interesting aside. One of my Taiwanese friends got his Japanese citizenship,
and thus renounced his Taiwanese.

But plot twist: Taiwan allows (what's akin to) temporary renouncment. Now he's
a dual citizen.

------
Complexicate
The Bloomberg article exacerbates the bigotry many Japanese have against their
own fellow citizens. In the caption of the first picture: "She’s not all
Japanese, but she was Miss Universe Japan 2015."

Yes, she is "all" Japanese. She grew up in Japan, with her Japanese mother,
attending Japanese schools. This is the subtle bigotry toward people who are
"half" (as they're called in Japan) rather than "dual". Many Japanese will
always consider them "less Japanese" or outsiders.

She had dual citizenship because of her father. When asked which citizenship
she would she would choose, she said,
「もちろん、日本を選ぶわ。自分では、私はとことん日本人だと思っている。そう、１００％日本人よ。肌の色の違いは、その人となりとは全く関係ないはず」

"Of course I will choose Japan. I think of myself as thoroughly Japanese. 100%
Japanese. It should have nothing to do with heredity, with a different skin
color."

[https://www.sankei.com/premium/news/150429/prm1504290022-n3....](https://www.sankei.com/premium/news/150429/prm1504290022-n3.html)

~~~
hh3k0
> Yes, she is "all" Japanese. She grew up in Japan, with her Japanese mother,
> attending Japanese schools. This is the subtle bigotry toward people who are
> "half" (as they're called in Japan) rather than "dual". Many Japanese will
> always consider them "less Japanese" or outsiders.

Just because she qualifies as Japanese from your point of view doesn't mean
that the Japanese have to view it like you. White savior complex much? I've
spoken with Japanese friends about hafus and their point of view was that
people do not materialize out of thin air, but rather are the genetic
conglomerate of their ancestors (which is hard to argue against) and thus
links in a chain -- which would make her less Japanese. And that seems fine to
me, as long as she is not discriminated against for being viewed less
Japanese.

~~~
Tor3
> but rather are the genetic conglomerate of their ancestors (which is hard to
> argue against) and thus links in a chain

But that's exactly it. It's _not_ like that. Or shouldn't be. That's not what
makes a person a part of a group (town, city, region, country, etc). It's a
constraining, and wrong way of looking at things. It's something to grow out
of. Heck, in my hometown we consider someone as 'from' this town (to translate
the term we use, approximately) even if they're not born here, maybe they even
moved here in their twenties, and maybe from another continent, maybe looking
totally different; if they just 'fit in' and find their comfortable place
here. If they bring on something new (combining culture/music from their
background with something existing), even better. They are 100% part of what's
us. Except for those of the never non-existent, but still tiny minority of the
"you're not one of us" group. Those telling young girls (as did an old woman
the other day, not in this town but out in the countryside) "you can't wear
that traditional costume, you're not one of us" (the girl's grandfather was
adopted from some place, or some such).

~~~
hh3k0
It is revolting how terribly arrogant your comment is, really.

They don't have a "wrong way of looking at things" simply because it is not
_your_ way. And your way is by no means _the_ way.

~~~
Tor3
I should maybe add 'in my opinion'. But in truth, I really believe it's wrong.
It does not lead to anything positive, quite the contrary. And I've never seen
a community become _worse_ by moving into a more modern, open view on
diversity and acceptance. And to focus: I really, truly mean that the idea
that what "makes" you (and that's what I was commenting on) is your ancestors,
is just wrong. Genetic chain? Well, so what, we're all a part of a genetic
chain, and the same one at that, which goes back nearly four billion years.
Take one step back to get the overview and it matters nothing (nor should it)
who your father was.

~~~
zlakb
It leads to something positive to them, it seems.

"more modern, open view on diversity and acceptance" is not positive by
itself. Unless you're looking from the point of view of those entering the
country, which are people that nationals don't have to care about.

~~~
Tor3
I'm actually taking the point of view from the nationals, as you call it. With
people coming from other places on earth the area I'm currently living in
became a good place to live. I got the nicest next-door neighbours it's
possible to imagine, for example. My wife cried when they moved to another
place (to get more space). The city center is also a vastly more dynamic and
interesting place to be than it used to be back when everything was monotone.
Back when the only non-native language you could hear was a little bit of
English, and the occasional tourists from nearby countries. Now there are more
than a hundred languages spoken here. It works fantastically well, but it
demands that you avoid creating ghettos for immigrants, as has been the
unfortunate expericence of some cities elsewhere in Europe.

------
griffinheart
> Nor do Japanese cities have many official celebrations of immigrant culture
> or contributions.

Tokyo certainly has. Almost every weekend right next to Yoyogi park[0] there
is one, Cuban fest, Thai fest, Rainbow fest, Cambodia fest.

And they are pretty big, with at least 10's of thousands of people visiting.

0 - [https://www.yoyogikoen.info](https://www.yoyogikoen.info)

~~~
Tor3
Yep - and in the town I used to live in Japan there were yearly festivals
showcasing various immigrant (or even visitor's) culture. All amateurs, just
getting together to create something from their various home countries and
doing a performance. And then a nice party afterwards, with everybody
(audience and participants). And there are food festivals too.

------
GreaterFool
Actually, Japan doesn't _begin_ anything. Japan has been doing this for years.
The major shift in the last couple of years was introduction of new unskilled
visas.

I don't follow that too closely but IIRC what Japan introduced first was a
guest worker visa for entry level positions such as convenience store workers.
These workers would receive Japanese language training in their home countries
and then come to work in Japan for 2 years, or something like that.

I think this was the pilot program. Must've gone well since later on Japan
relaxed the requirements for unskilled workers in general.

Meanwhile Japan made it easier for skilled workers to get a PR. I think on
"engineer" (there's nuance to what it means and how it works) one would
require 10 years to get PR. Then HSFP (see my other comments) was introduced
which I believe lowered that to 5 years, initially. Then HSFP was amended to
to 1 and 3 years depending on Type 1 (more points on the scale) and Type 2.
This happened while back. Year or two ago.

The most recent change is new visas for unskilled workers with a path to PR.

Again, all of this has been going on for years. Nothing began just now :)

------
siruncledrew
Fun fact: Brazil has the largest Japanese diaspora in the world (larger than
US):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_diaspora](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_diaspora)

TIL after wondering why Brazil was one of the prominent contributors of
foreign workers in Japan.

~~~
chasely
There's an interesting history of the Japanese diaspora in Brazil and Peru [0,
1]. Essentially Brazil was looking to "whiten" its country at the same time
that Japan was facing economic crises, jumpstarting the immigration.

0:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Brazilians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Brazilians)
1: [http://isaacmeyer.net/2017/08/episode-207-across-the-sea-
par...](http://isaacmeyer.net/2017/08/episode-207-across-the-sea-part-3/)

------
duxup
It will be interesting to see how Japan deals with it culturally. From folks I
know who lived there they said that while everyone was nice, it was always
clear that they were very much outsiders.

~~~
cthalupa
>From folks I know who lived there they said that while everyone was nice, it
was always clear that they were very much outsiders.

I spend a fair amount of time in Tokyo for work, and I'd say this is accurate.

My 日本語 is far from fluent, but it's frequently better than the English being
spoken by random people on the street... yet it will take a good 20-30 seconds
of me replying in Japanese before they'll switch away from English.

A co-worker is from Poland, and he married a Japanese woman. Their children
speak Japanese and Polish at home, and only a little bit of English. Despite
being very obviously half Japanese, he says the kids frequently have trouble
getting strangers to speak to them in Japanese, despite it being by far their
most fluent language.

This sort of thing probably doesn't sound like a huge deal to someone who
hasn't experienced it, but every day to day interaction is a frequent reminder
that you're not Japanese and you won't ever be - without radical change, those
kids are going to spend their whole lives with their fellow Japanese citizens
defaulting to the assumption that they can't even speak their mother tongue.

I still love the city and the people - they are genuinely wonderful and
incredibly nice. Many of my co-workers have invited me into their homes, had
me meet their families, and gone out of their ways to make sure I have a
wonderful time in the city. I've had to modify my own behavior there to not
accidentally make people feel like they should be going out of their way to
help me, etc. And it's a wonderfully safe place, with kids expected to be able
to function independently for means of getting to school, etc. There's an
emphasis on personal responsibility, even at a young age, that I think is
sorely missing in much of the western world these days, with helicopter
parenting, etc., being so widespread.

I don't know if the whole outsider thing will change in my lifetime - but it
changing is going to require more immigration, and the native Japanese
becoming more exposed to foreigners who have immigrated instead of just
tourists, or the breed of expats that keep to themselves in their luxury
condos in Roppongi.

I've kind of rambled here, so I guess the cliff notes version is: Japanese
people in my experience have been unfailingly nice, outside of some very
isolated incidents of obvious racism, but yes, even people born in Japan if
they look foreign will be treated as outsiders. That changing is going to
require immigration opening up.

~~~
imetatroll
To each their own I guess. I often find that Japanese prefer to speak to me in
Japanese and in fact are relieved to know that I can communicate in Japanese.
I have never once experienced this attitude that you are describing and I've
lived here for many years.

I have only ever felt welcome. And I frequently meet foreigners with a chip on
their shoulder describing how we will always be "outsiders". I find it rather
odd to be honest.

~~~
cthalupa
It's awesome that that's been your experience! I genuinely hope that
continues.

It unfortunately is not the only experience, and the evidence I've seen points
towards it being far from the norm. It's possible those foreigners you're
meeting frequently are just jerks, and that that is contributing to it, but
the possibility also exists that they might have that chip on their shoulder
because their concerns are genuine.

The documentary iandanforth mentions is a good example of the stuff I'm
talking about. You don't need to take my word for it - you can see the genuine
experiences of others living in Japan.

------
program_whiz
Some are saying this is a response to needing more people due to decreasing
fertility rates. At least in the US, I was shocked to learn that people
actually _want_ children at the same rates as before (about 2.5 kids, and 95%
of people want children). However, according to these sources, the major
reason is that its too expensive (~65%) and the economy seems uncertain
(~12%).

Gallup Data: [https://news.gallup.com/poll/164618/desire-children-
norm.asp...](https://news.gallup.com/poll/164618/desire-children-norm.aspx)

Article Overview: [https://ifstudies.org/blog/how-many-kids-do-women-
want](https://ifstudies.org/blog/how-many-kids-do-women-want)

~~~
wtdata
Why were you shocked? 2.5 children per couple is just slightly above the
replacement rate.

~~~
program_whiz
I was shocked because people _want_ to have children and the same number of
children that they did decades ago, its just economic reasons why they aren't
(not cultural shifts or beliefs changing, or wanting to "have a bigger
career").

~~~
wtdata
Again, why shouldn't they? 2.5 children is a perfectly acceptable number.

Also, the birthrate in the USA (and most Western world) is already below the
replacement rate for decades now. [1]

[1] [https://www.iheart.com/content/2019-05-15-birth-rate-in-
unit...](https://www.iheart.com/content/2019-05-15-birth-rate-in-united-
states-hits-32-year-low-new-report-says/)

EDIT: Sorry, I wasn't understanding your point that families can't afford to
have as many kids as they could one generation ago. I agree with you.

~~~
tveita
The poster is shocked because people's (self-estimated) ability to afford kids
has gone down, leading to a larger number of people who want kids to stay
childless. They are not saying that people wanting kids is a bad thing.

Many people assume that people have less kids because preferences and
lifestyles have changed, leading to headlines like, "Millennials don't want
kids" (And maybe in the same vein, "Millennials are killing cars",
"Millennials want smaller homes", etc.)

------
GreaterFool
> but it’s no longer quite right to call it homogeneous

Are you sure? Japan is maybe 99% homogeneous? I live in central Tokyo and I
can go on for days and days without seeing a foreigner!

> it will inevitably introduce social strains

Sadly, yes. I've observed this on few occasions.

~~~
tmm84
I work in Akihabara. I see foreigners everyday. Even in Minato-ku I see plenty
of non-Japanese people running around.

~~~
GreaterFool
Add Shibuya (mainly around the station) and Shinjuku and you basically covered
all foreigner hotspots! Those are the most non-representative areas!

But go to Shimokitezawa or Gakuendaigaku or anywhere off the beaten path and
foreigners will be few and far between.

~~~
wiennat
Shimokitazawa still have a lot of foreigners. It is surrounded by universities
including Todai.

------
llamathrowaway
It’s funny to see the comments lamenting the projected destruction of Japanese
culture, while in fact

\- the Japanese language is littered with loan words written in katakana even
though native words of the same meaning often exist already

\- office workers all wear suits

\- the music scene is not very different from the west. Rock is huge and there
is a great jazz scene. While bands playing Japanese instruments are rare and
will be seen as a speciality, the same way bagpipes make you feel ethnic and
traditional but pianos and guitars don’t.

\- 'western' food is everywhere. I am not talking about what you can actually
order in a restaurant in Europe, but Saizeriya and it’s peers. Western
inspired cuisine. Japanese curry is also a thing.

\- and don’t forget about whiskey.

And that

\- no one forced Japan to do so. They have being open to foreign cultural
influences since Meiji era, and I don’t see that changing. Seems to me that if
it works for the Japanese people, it can and will become Japanese culture.

I am open to hear about some opinion from a native Japanese viewpoint. But
from what I have read in this thread, much of the speculation about the loss
of the 'unique' Japanese culture has more to do about what is happening in the
west than what will happen in Japan.

~~~
krapp
>But from what I have read in this thread, much of the speculation about the
loss of the 'unique' Japanese culture has more to do about what is happening
in the west than what will happen in Japan.

Yes. Japan has become sort of an ideal example of a successful modern
ethnostate for Western opponents of multiculturalism. A lot of fears
Westerners express about Japan losing its cultural homogeneity are just a
proxy for fears of the loss of white power and identity in the US and Europe,
as an expression of the current right-wing xenophobic reactionary shift going
on in the West.

It's just a weird new form of Orientalism. Instead of fetishising them for
their art, or their business practices, or their "submissive" women, we're
fetishizing their ethnic identity and racial purity.

~~~
blub
With Trump, Brexit and the turmoil in Europe we're way past just "opposing"
multiculturalism. Multiculturalism seems to be imploding.

I was and am not fascinated by Japan, and to be honest I didn't always enjoy
my visit there. It was frustrating to feel so... foreign. I complained about
them not speaking English and was annoyed that I couldn't even read a simple
sign.

And yet, looking back I cherish that time and a feeling of respect has
developed inside me. Because Japan was Japan, and didn't bend itself to my
will, of that of other "guests" that want to change it to fit their
imagination.

It was as solid as a rock and that counts for something.

~~~
krapp
And yet Japan has been exchanging cultural and genetic material with the rest
of East Asia for thousands of years, and the West for centuries. Even during
the Sakoku period, they were trading with the world through the port at
Dejima.

Pretending it's an island untouched by and uninterested in foreign culture
_is_ changing it to fit one's imagination. Someone may well have "bent to your
will" a bit had you put in a bit more effort than your comment suggests you
did while there, as hospitality is deeply ingrained into their culture.

~~~
jlawson
Noone thinks it's an island untouched by the world.

But a small degree of foreign influence over thousands of years, carried out
by mutual trade of objects and information, just isn't the same as the kind of
mass immigration seen in the West, where the whole population becomes a
minority in less than a lifetime. Such a thing has never happened in Japan in
a thousand years; not even close. (It did happen before that, and the people
who were there originally are _not doing too well_.)

There's a fundamental difference between exchanging products and ideas, and
mass migration of people. Stop trying to pretend that they're the same.

~~~
Apocryphon
Again, just because the current Japanese government has lifted some
restrictions does not mean mass migration is inevitable. It is tiresome to
find Japanophiles who think they know better than actual Japanese people about
their future.

------
benjohnson
Im conflicted about this - I enjoy the multicultural aspects of my own town
(Seattle) but I also sympathise with this idea of having a home culture.

~~~
Pmop
I'm not only conflicted. I'm annoyed.

Immigration is being sold as a solution to aging and shrinking population.
While opening to immigrants certainly helps solving the shrinking workfoce
problem, it is nothing more than a duct tape over what is happening: people no
longer want to have kids.

After it's been long enough that immigrants are not even called this anymore,
if we discover that young workforce is still shrinking because people are
still not having enough kids, what excuses we're going to use?

I can agree that immigration is nice and all—hell, immigrants helped to build
my country, Japanese included. But, can we search for solutions to the real
problem? What can we do, to help people doing things humans are supposed to
do? To have children, to have a family, to be healthy, worldwide.

~~~
whytaka
Why does that matter to you? I don't know if I'll have children and if I do,
it'll certainly be <= replacement rate.

It's often said that people used to have a lot of kids in order to insure
against child mortality. I understand financial stress et al may be one reason
for the lower reproduction rate but less kids can also be a sign of success.

~~~
slang800
If successful people are having fewer kids than unsuccessful people then
haven't we created a dysgenic system?

~~~
CptFribble
This view is popular, even if in jest like "haha Idiocracy was right guise!!"
but in real life it smacks of eugenics and the Divine Right Of The Rich.

Success correlates well with things like wealth, education level of your
parents, early-age nutrition, and other things that can be considered
"inherited" in a way, but children of poor and "unsuccessful" people can
become financially and socially important as well, it just happens at a lower
rate.

Suggesting that more poor children than wealthy children will impoverish
society in more than just a statistical sense implies there's something
immeasurably special about the people who become wealthy and famous, as if the
mere act of breeding with them will produce superior humans.

~~~
mistermann
Impressive unpacking of a low detail, fairly innocuous comment, into a high
detail, somewhat sinister assertion. What mechanism do you use to add specific
details where none existed before?

~~~
Apocryphon
The very use of the word "dysgenic" wrt human populations is a form of virtue
signaling that is far from unknown to internet circles such as HN. The comment
might have been overzealous about rebutting a perceived narrative, but that
statement is a basis for that narrative.

~~~
mistermann
Fair enough, but back to my question: what mechanism do you use to add
specific details where none existed before?

~~~
Apocryphon
I can't speak for the commenter, but it could be a simple yet rigorous
heuristic of seeing a particular buzzword used in certain conversations,
reading the context statement that the buzzword is employed under, and
matching that statement to a particular ideological narrative that is often
prevalent in discussion circles such as HN.

~~~
mistermann
I just realized the original person that made the comment wasn't the one that
replied, my bad.

But I agree, this is indeed what happened. Another similarly true explanation
is, _he used his imagination_.

It's interesting to me how judging people based on heuristics is sometimes
fine, even admirable, but other times it is Very Very Bad.

It's also funny how these types of ideas seem to offend people, judging by
voting anyways. No looking behind the _real_ curtain or something like that I
suppose.

~~~
Apocryphon
Doesn’t seem to be much judgment going on in that comment towards people.
Maybe judgment towards a preexisting narrative or meme. People need to take
things less personally in arguments, and feel less offended when the ideas
they’re repeating are challenged.

~~~
mistermann
> Doesn’t seem to be much judgment going on in that comment towards people.

Are we perhaps referring to different comments? I was referring to: "This view
is popular, even if in jest like "haha Idiocracy was right guise!!" but in
real life it _smacks of eugenics_ and the Divine Right Of The Rich."

~~~
Apocryphon
Seems like that comment is judging a narrative or a meme, and not the person
who made the comment itself.

~~~
mistermann
Just for fun, let's pedantically parse the words and see if that's where we
differ (key [words/phrases in brackets] for my parsing).

>>> If [[successful] people are having fewer kids] than [unsuccessful] people
then haven't we created a [dysgenic] system?

>> [This view] is popular, even if in jest like "haha Idiocracy was right
guise!!" but [in real life] [it] [[smacks of] [eugenics]] and the Divine Right
Of The Rich.

...

> Seems like that comment is judging a narrative or a meme, and _not the
> person who made the comment itself_.

To be extra safe, let's add some context, to make sure we're using the same
definitions and "facts":

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgenics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgenics)

Dysgenics is the study of factors producing the accumulation and perpetuation
of defective or disadvantageous genes and traits in offspring of a particular
population or species. _The adjective "dysgenic" is the antonym of "eugenic"._

"smacks of": To be a sign or symbol of something: signify, stand for,
symbolize

"eugenics": Eugenics is the science of improving the human species by
selectively mating people with specific desirable hereditary traits. It aims
to reduce human suffering by “breeding out” disease, disabilities and so-
called undesirable characteristics from the human population.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ)

"The heritability of IQ for adults is between 57% and 73%[6] with some more-
recent estimates as high as 80%[7] and 86%.[8] IQ goes from being weakly
correlated with genetics, for children, _to being strongly correlated with
genetics for late teens and adults_. The heritability of IQ increases with age
and reaches an asymptote at 18–20 years of age and continues at that level
well into adulthood. This phenomenon is known as the Wilson Effect.[9] Recent
studies suggest that family and parenting characteristics are not significant
contributors to variation in IQ scores;[10] _however, poor prenatal
environment, malnutrition and disease can have deleterious effects_.[11][12]"

To me (my _interpretation_ ):

\- OP seems to be asserting that "successful" people having fewer kids is
detrimental to the overall well being of society.

\- The person replying implies disagreement with this _popular view_
(narrative/meme), but then goes on to assert (again, _my interpretation_ )
that _those who hold this view_ (when it is put forth "in real life", which is
what I interpret "it" to refer to) are in support (at least implicitly) of
eugenics.

Do you perhaps think OP _doesn 't_ personally hold the stated view, or the
replier _doesn 't believe OP personally holds the stated view_? Personally,
when I see no language to indicate either are talking in _purely_
theoretical/philosophical (devil's advocate, etc) terms, by default I tend to
take people's statements at face value (while keeping in mind the ever-present
possibility that something important was lost in translation).

I'm genuinely very curious if this is significantly different than how you
view (parse the language to derive the _actually intended_ meaning) the
exchange?

~~~
Apocryphon
It might be a mistaken assumption born from misclustering, but given that, as
you point out, dysgenic is the antonym of eugenics, and as we can see from a
not unrelated conversation from the past day [0] repeating that popular
narrative, it is not a leap to presume that all of this is related.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19985045](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19985045)

~~~
mistermann
That comment is certainly related, but unless I'm misunderstanding the
relevance to our conversation that you're seeing, it's an aspect other than
the one I'm interested in, which is:

a) the mechanism used by CptFribble to produce specific details where none
existed before (although I think we've settled this, and are not in
disagreement?)

b) how you and I came to different conclusions on whether CptFribble's comment
was (or was not) judgemental of slang800 (attributing a personal support of
eugenics) - this I don't think is settled?

------
ggregoire
I was in Tokyo a few years ago, went back recently and I noticed the changes
described in this article too. Every sign and menu are now in
Japanese/Chinese/English. Waiters, salesclerks, metro station assistants now
speaks English. And every 7-Eleven, Starbucks, etc… seems to employ foreigners
instead of Japanese people (mostly from countries like Vietnam, Philippine,
Thailand and India tho), who speak English perfectly.

~~~
NegatioN
A lot of this is most likely in preparation for the 2020 Olympics. Especially
the street signs.

Its made Tokyo way more easily navigable though, especially combined with
Google maps. :)

~~~
zeeZ
From my observations the Chinese signs are more a reaction to the hordes
flocking into the country to buy hygiene products in bulk and also do a little
sightseeing on the side.

------
program_whiz
Perhaps partially due to the fact that people just aren't procreating?

A survey published last week of Japanese attitudes towards sex caused a stir
with the claim that about 40% of young single men and women have never had sex
– a phenomenon that is being blamed for the low birthrate in Japan, where it
is predicted the population will plummet from 127 million over the next
century.

The National Institute of Population and Social Security Research’s poll of
5,000 single men and women aged 18-34 found that the proportion of virgins had
increased significantly over the past decade: among men, 42% said they had
never had sex; among women the figure was 44%.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/28/japan-poll-
lin...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/28/japan-poll-linking-
sexless-singles-to-low-birth-rate-causes-stir)

------
danans
The question of the origins of the Japanese peoples is a hotly debated issue.
Jared Diamond (of Guns, Germs, and Steel fame) wrote an article on the subject
in 1998:

[http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/japaneseroots1455](http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/japaneseroots1455)

------
minicoolva
I am in Tokyo. Many foreigners

------
gaspoweredcat
ive been impatiently waiting for this for a while, now i can finally start
working towards moving over there

------
village-idiot
The longer Japan waits, the more sudden the demographic shifts will have to
be.

