
Scott Forstall tells story about Steve Jobs, Microsoft, and a dead fish [video] - shawndumas
https://www.loopinsight.com/2020/05/21/scott-forstall-tells-story-about-steve-jobs-microsoft-and-a-dead-fish/
======
swang
If you want the gist of the story:

Scott Forstall interviews at Apple.

During one of the many interviews onsite, Steve Jobs pulls the interviewer out
of the room then eventually replaces the interviewer and begins peppering
Forstall with questions. They have a connection and Jobs offers him a job on
the spot (but also tells him to go through with the rest of the interviews).

Scott calls up his contact at Microsoft and turns down the offer he had from
there.

The next day he gets a package at his doorstep. He opens it up and it's a huge
dead fish. Forstall, thinking maybe it is a threat from Microsoft, calls up
his contact and asks what the meaning of this was. His contact explains that
they went down to Pike's Market, bought the largest King Salmon from there,
packed it up with ice and shipped it down to him.

He ate it that night but still ended up going to Apple.

~~~
dntbnmpls
> bought the largest King Salmon from there

That's easily a few hundred dollars just for the salmon. Maybe over $1000
depending on the size of the salmon.

> He ate it that night but still ended up going to Apple.

No way he ate it all that night. Family friend brought us a whole king salmon
from a fishing trip. Lasted a few meals. The best salmon I've ever had.
Nothing like the farmed atlantic salmon you get from the supermarket.

~~~
chooseaname
>> He at it that night...

> No way he ate it all that night.

He ate it does not necessarily imply he ate it all. I ate chili last night,
but that doesn't mean I ate _all_ the chili.

But, anyway, those weren't the actual words of Forstall in the video.

~~~
dota_fanatic
Hopefully a professional chimes in but I believe it does imply that he ate it
all. Your example isn't one to one because you refer to it as "I ate chili"
instead of "I ate it". Same way people wouldn't be confused if he had said,
"He ate Salmon that night but" .

Similar examples: I painted it last night. (Painted a painting) I beat it last
night. (Beat a game) I ran it last year. (Ran a marathon)

"Where's the chili?" "Oh, I ate it last night, sorry." (Ate the chili)

"Mmm, this chili is good, isn't it?" "Sure is, I had some last night." (Ate
some of the chili)

~~~
chooseaname
"Half my chili is gone!"

"Sorry, I ate it."

Edit:

"This chili is no good!"

"What's wrong with it, I ate it?"

~~~
dota_fanatic
"Half my chili is gone!" "Sorry, I ate it."

"it" in that construction means "half my chili". Just as in "My southern,
three-day-cooked chili is gone", "it" is "(their) southern, three-day-cooked
chili".

"This chili is no good!" "What's wrong with it, I ate (some of) it?"

The parenthetical is omitted but implied. Unless they're referring to the
chili that is inside your digestive tract?

------
jarjoura
Unfortunately, I was only an intern then new-grad during those early aughts of
Forstall's reign. He was quite a brilliant man, very quick-witted and always
one step ahead of you. Steve Jobs entrusted all of Apple's coolest projects
with him for that reason. So all the biggest demos you saw on stage were under
Forstall's leadership at one point or another.

However, if you wanted to work on those cool projects, it meant you had to
work with Forstall and he was intimidating to say the least. A mini-SJ people
internally would call him. Any feature you were working on that needed SJ
approval went through Forstall's monocle eye first.

On the one hand, he was one of the few leads that would remember my name and
say hi to me when passing in the hall. On the other, I was scared to look him
in the eye lol. I do think he held his reports to unreasonably high bars by
expecting long hours of work and he seemed to find joy in seeing people
squirm. It was weird.

~~~
derangedHorse
For some reason it's always the people who you try to avoid that end up
learning your name the quickest. I knew a VP known to encourage harsh working
conditions that I tried to steer clear of, but he always took the effort of
remembering my name and coming over to my desk to say hi lol

------
psaux
I worked in Scott’s group. He was on top of everything and was passionately
involved. We would get in a room and pitch all (yes, all) ideas/changes to him
and sometimes Steve. He had no tolerance for bugs, and quality was number one.
He was like that coach you thought hated you, then you realized he cared.

~~~
flowerlad
I wish Scott was running Apple today not Tim Cook. I love skeuomorphic
interfaces. Tim Cook is a failure in my opinion. There have been no
interesting products under him, nor any compelling features added to existing
products. He is simply coasting on the trajectory set by Steve Jobs.

~~~
hylaride
Uh, the apple watch? Airpods?

While I personally hate skeuomorphic interfaces, I'll mostly agree with your
analysis on Tim Cook. He's an amazing supply chain whiz, but he's not a
product guy. The software quality at apple has also plummeted.

~~~
kick
>mid-spec smartwatch that took three iterations to get to the level of polish
its competitors were at during its first one

>bluetooth headphones

I don't think these count as interesting. I'm glad they exist, but they're
pretty dull.

------
drawkbox
I think software quality has gone way down at Apple since Scott Forstall left.

Side note, I still have fond memories of working at 2XL Games and on ESPN
X-Games Snocross and it was one of the first games shown on the iPad on stage
by Scott Forstall that highlighted the ability to run on iPhone and scale up
to iPad [1]. We had made the game in 9 weeks which was very fast from ATV
Offroad, adding snowmobiles for the "slednecks" as they are called. The game
launched and while we were working on our next game, we tuned into the keynote
as all devs did in 2010, it was Jan 27, 2010, we saw our game come up on stage
and no one knew it was happening. It was one of those killer moments that made
the work worth it. Turns out it was largely because Steve Jobs was on the
board at ABC/Disney and ESPN properties got promoted.

We later made the first game on Apple GameCenter matchup/networking in Ricky
Carmichael's Motocross Matchup. The early versions of the Apple systems were
actually quite solid for matchup/networking. This was before Android had
Google Game Play Services so we eventually swapped it for a platform agnostic
networking system but still lots of fun.

I was lucky enough to be lead game dev on both and got to help with the
direction/game design as well especially on Ricky Carmichael's Motocross
Matchup which is still pretty high up in racing on iOS.

Overall, I really feel iOS was a more solid/robust platform back then and
trailed off after iOS 6 in terms of speed/quality, I think that has alot to do
with Scott Forstall.

I think Scott Forstall was required for Steve Jobs to really make NeXT and
iPhone happen. The way he was let go after the Apple Maps push, which I am
sure was pushed out early, was disheartening.

[1]
[https://web.archive.org/web/20100130175713/http://wireless.i...](https://web.archive.org/web/20100130175713/http://wireless.ign.com/articles/106/1064149p1.html)

------
jgunsch
I'm a little shocked to hear this, but I've had a similar fish story with
Microsoft!

I interned at Microsoft my junior year of college. Toward the end, I
interviewed with Google and got a competing offer.

But during the negotiation process, the recruiters had Chris Jones (Windows
Live VP at the time) call me to try talking me into joining Microsoft. He told
me his story about how at the start of his career, when he was comparing
offers from a few companies, Microsoft (relatively unknown at the time) sent
him a salmon from Pike Place Market --- and that gesture convinced him to
accept Microsoft's offer.

Two days later, a package of smoked salmon on ice from Pike Place Market
showed up at my door in Tucson, AZ.

(I went to Google for non-salmon-related reasons, but sending me food mostly
became a reminder that Google was offering free food as a perk!)

~~~
lostlogin
The series of Microsoft fish stories here is truely bizarre. Surely there is a
more universally agreeable gift food?

~~~
deanCommie
Who doesn't like Salmon?

~~~
rhaps0dy
Vegan applicants would not find it funny.

~~~
OatsAndHoney
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/08/06/who-
ar...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/08/06/who-are-americas-
vegans-and-vegetarians-infographic/)

Vegans at most account for 3% of the population. In a corporate entity that
large, it doesn’t matter if you miss a hire or not. So if a vegan was
offended, I’m sure no one cared and was happy to offer the job to someone
else.

~~~
dharmab
A large portion of MS employees are vegetarian because many Hindus are
vegetarian. At MS Build they always have both vegetarian and Indian vegetarian
options.

~~~
jldugger
Yea, but ... due to the visa situation the vast majority of those folks are
not getting the maximal courtship, so to speak.

~~~
dharmab
You are aware that there are many, many Hindus who are US citizens, yes? Who
have been in the country since birth or early childhood?

~~~
jldugger
There are, but I suspect they are not as prevalent in the software engineering
profession? Even the CEOs of Google and Microsoft took that track.

------
shaggyfrog
I have to wonder about the competence of a hiring manager who thinks that
sending a candidate (who just rejected their offer) a dead fish in a package,
without any other context, is a good idea.

But then again, we are talking about tech recruiting, so it’s probably not all
that surprising.

~~~
asveikau
I start to wonder if he might be loosely summarizing the story in a way that
makes it more amusing.

Like maybe there was a card explaining it and he either threw it away without
reading or left it out of the story. Maybe the parallels to The Godfather are
something he thought of later.

Or maybe you're right, and whoever sent it was kinda dopey and thought a
fellow Washington State person would immediately get the reference, and he
didn't.

~~~
sjwright
Like when you say dead fish, it sounds bad. But consider the alternative—a
gift of live salmon would be far more annoying and less convenient for most
people.

~~~
duncanawoods
That is a fascinating and disturbingly abusive prank - make someone
responsible for killing a huge fish. What would they do - take it to a vet or
a fishmonger or find a hammer? Call wildlife services for what you would buy
in the supermarket the next day? It would be a pretty weird position to be in.

------
Austin_Conlon
I wish Forstall would do a long form oral history with the Computer History
Museum (usually around 2-3 hours) even if there was that shorter interview on
stage there in 2017. He has a gift for storytelling.

~~~
narak
Totally agree. The one with Jon Rubinstein [0] was illuminating in a way none
of the biographies have been.

[0] Part 1:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJxElfc0N9E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJxElfc0N9E)
Part 2:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47bNpIbCaL8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47bNpIbCaL8)

~~~
Austin_Conlon
Also if you want to learn about the NeXT days (which live on in many ways!)
check out the ones with Blaine Garst and Steve Naroff.

------
bangonkeyboard
He also related this story in his interview with the Computer History Museum:
[https://youtu.be/IiuVggWNqSA?t=662](https://youtu.be/IiuVggWNqSA?t=662)

I'm still upset that, at 48:36, Forstall offered to give his thoughts on what
we could be doing with AI that we're not, but Markoff decided to move on.

~~~
pmichaud
Why don't you just ask him directly?

~~~
bangonkeyboard
How?

~~~
sah2ed
He’s on Twitter!

[https://twitter.com/forstall](https://twitter.com/forstall)

~~~
Austin_Conlon
Zero replies to any tweets.

------
olliej
I was interviewed by Forstall (many many years ago, back when that was
actually sane) and he asked me one of those annoying puzzle questions - don't
get me wrong I love those questions, they're just useless as interview
questions.

He was personable enough, but I feel that question also coloured my opinion
for many years.

~~~
sytelus
Care to share question any way?

~~~
olliej
IIRC it is as follows:

You are given two bags, and 10 marbles, 5 are black, 5 are white. You have to
put the marbles into the two bags, and then the interviewer (I guess?)
shuffles the bags and lets you pick a a bag to select a marble from. You "win"
if you get a black marble (or white).

The problem is essentially: how do you distribute the ten marbles between the
two bags to maximize you probability of getting a specific color.

My first answer was to point out the window behind him and say "look a
zeppelin!" and he turned :D

Like all such problems the actual answer is obvious once you realize it or if
you already know it.

~~~
garganzol
This is quite good question with an intuitive answer (at least to me): 50%/50%
marble distribution maximizes the chances of getting specific color with a
random selection.

~~~
barcadad
Hmm, I think 50/50 is the worst you could do. What if you put 1 black marble
in 1 bag and the other marbles in the other bag. Then even a random choice
would get you .5 * 100% + .5 * 4/9 = 72.2%

And also, if you can look at or touch the bag before picking it, then just
pick the one the looks like it has only 1 vs. 9 marbles!

~~~
LaserPineapple
You can definitely do worse than 50/50: just flip your solution and put a
single white marble in one of the bags. By the way, your solution--single
black marble in one bag, all other marbles in the other bag--is optimal; do
you know of a way to prove it? Besides just exhaustive enumeration, that is.

~~~
Rexxar
Exhaustive enumeration is a proof even if it's not very satisfying :-). For
example, a big part of the Four colour theorem is a big enumeration of all
configurations.

------
thijsvandien
I always wonder if Forstall will ever return to Apple to save it, just like
Jobs once did. Surely cash is not a problem right now, to say the least, but I
feel the spirit is fading. While there is Apple University and all that, he's
probably the closest to a true Jobs replacement that is—or might ever
be—around (for better or for worse).

~~~
tosers4
Save it? Apple gets more profitable each day. last year it has 1-year returns
of 70%

~~~
thijsvandien
It's not so much saving the company from bankruptcy, but saving what they
stand/stood for. Other than for shareholders, profitability isn't that
exciting. If Apple becomes the new old Microsoft, or the next IBM, they're
essentially dead to me. When was the last time you felt really inspired by one
of their keynotes?

~~~
tosers4
Apple is still the only big tech that is consumer centric.

Microsoft revolves around enterprise. Consumer stuff is just getting the users
familiar with they tech.

Amazon is logistics.

Google and Facebook is Ad Tech, they don't add or polish experience if it
doesn't make their ads better.

Apple has stayed true in providing excellent products for individuals, not
marketing agencies or enterprise. That's what they show every update. Sure you
miss an Ipod or Iphone reveal, but they are still showing new things (TouchId,
card, watch, and the AirPods that everyone even non apple fans, love), and
polishing old one( even listening to feedback like the keyboard stuff).

------
erreJulian
Tried to save it to my watch later list and apparently it's disabled because
it's a kids video. Interesting.

~~~
saagarjha
Why does it prevent you from saving a kids video when you presumably are not a
kid?

~~~
anonymfus
Because Google clamped all different concerns about kids on YouTube into the
one feature without differentiating between videos with kids and videos for
kids, and there was concern about recontextualisation of videos with kids as
pedophilic erotic by including them into public playlists with inappropriate
names and descriptions.

------
monkeycantype
A few years ago, oh hang on, more than a few years ago, Jobs was still alive -
I was training at a muay thai gym south of bangkok and I met the executive
chef on Larry Ellison's yacht. He was training to get fit, because a wealthy
couple had told him if he could lose weight they'd set him up with a cooking
show. Jobs often borrowed Larry's yacht, and he had galley stocked with
everything Jobs wanted, except that Jobs wanted fresh fish from a particular
Hawaiian fishing company, fresh every day. So there was a young, beautiful
woman who flew to meet them every day that Jobs was on board, wherever they
were in the world, who would charm her way through customs with a big dead
fish packed in ice.

Guess he liked fish.

------
hmexx
So he interviewed at two really competitive companies. One CEO offered him to
skip the entire interview chain after chatting to him for a few minutes. The
other sent him a desperate gift by mail after he turned down their offer.

Scott must be __really __good at interviews! :P

------
blueyes
Scott starts speaking around minute 32.

------
yftsui
Actual video starts at 2:06.

I heard no sound but saw his mouth moving, thought something was wrong with my
Airpods Bluetooth connection, so I kept disconnect and reconnect it lol.

