
Ask HN: What to replace my MacBook with? - dennisvdvliet
Seen the recent issues with Apple hard- and software I’m not 100% sure I want to replace my 2015 MacBook Pro with a 2017 MacBook pro. What are your suggestions for a decent replacement?<p>I’m looking for something the size of a MacBook that can run Ubuntu or something similar. Good boos quality and a good screen.
======
drawnwren
I went from a stolen 2015 MBP to an X230 (modified with an X220 keyboard) to a
new MBP. With the thinkpads, the smaller screen and lower resolution will take
some getting used to. Running a customized window manager in Linux is the best
solution when it works but you shouldn't discount the amount of time you will
lose to tinkering and random breakages.

My personal belief is that, for a working dev, MacOS is still the best deal
running. The fact of the matter is that it will always work and any new
software you want to install will have a well documented how to. Even if you
don't want to run MacOS, I'd still probably recommend buying an MBP and dual
booting linux on it. Thinkpads are great, the x220 keyboard is probably the
best keyboard ever put on a laptop, but the screens are horrible, you will
notice the RAM and CPU shortage, and battery life was an issue. Further, the
form factor is not as small as an MBP.

If you are going down the Thinkpad route, the X62 is an interesting option
custom made by an enthusiast group in Shenzhen. [1] Otherwise, Hackaday wrote
a fairly modern Thinkpad buyer's guide [2]. One thing I would note is that
upgrading the x230 keyboard to the x220 keyboard is trivial and only requires
a jeweler's screwdriver and a few new parts (about $70). You can also upgrade
the x230 screen to an HD screen but that is a significantly more complicated
upgrade.

[1]
[https://geoff.greer.fm/2017/07/16/thinkpad-x62/](https://geoff.greer.fm/2017/07/16/thinkpad-x62/)
[2] [https://hackaday.com/2016/10/28/apple-sucks-now-heres-a-
thin...](https://hackaday.com/2016/10/28/apple-sucks-now-heres-a-thinkpad-
buyers-guide/)

~~~
dpark
> _With the thinkpads, the smaller screen and lower resolution will take some
> getting used to_

What takes getting used to is that Thinkpad screens are trash. :( I’ve been so
disappointed in them. They start mediocre and decline rapidly with blotching
and ghosting. I’ve used Thinkpads for my personal laptop and my work laptop
and refuse to own another. My manager has a recent Thinkpad with an OLED
screen which seems pretty good but I’m not willing to try another. I fully
expect that in 6 months his OLED will exhibit ghosting or burn in.

~~~
ajford
Gotta say, I've used a fair number of thinkpads across the last 10 years, and
I've never seen any blotching or ghosting.

I will admit that the older models had fairly crappy resolutions (I mean
1366x768 and 1600x800 was crap, and Lenovo held on to those resolutions far
longer than they should), and pretty dim (I could barely use my X200t and X201
in the shade outside), but I feel most models in the last 2-3 years have made
plenty of progress in that regard.

~~~
pimeys
I have the 25th anniversary model and while the screen is not the best colour
wise, it's still much better than the older panels and for programming it's
bright and sharp with no ghosting or blotching.

The keyboard and battery life are both best in class. Of course when the
battery is worn out, you can buy a new one. This is possible with ThinkPads.

~~~
dpark
Battery life is not best in class in my experience, either. My manager who
loves his new X1 Carbon with the OLED screen admits it’s got terrible battery
life.

The keyboards are fine but not better than, say, MBPs from a couple of years
ago. (Half millimeter travel on the latest MBPs is not great.)

~~~
pimeys
By installing and running tlp and having the 24 and 48 Wh batteries I get
easily 11 hours of use on Linux with my T25. 7 watt average power use reported
by powertop, but I mainly run i3, browser and tons of terminals...

T25 has the legacy 7 row keyboard which had no competition currently.

------
bproven
If you can get something preloaded with Linux it is probably best. System 76
or the Dell precision line of laptops are good options. In the case of dell I
would go precision over XPS - I believe you get better support and a better
tested product with the business line. I have an XPS and have had a few QA
issues with it. However, once I got it sorted it has been great running Ubuntu
- but it was a ..... journey to say the least ;)

EDIT: another good option is probably XPS 13 Dev editions that give you ubuntu
preloaded as well

~~~
godot
I have been thinking about getting a XPS 13 and getting Linux on it too.
Currently, I repurposed a very old laptop (heavy and poor battery life) by
installing CentOS Linux on it, and it runs great and I can do productive dev
work on it (just can't carry it anywhere since it's too heavy). Curious, are
the issues you had with the XPS bad enough that you'd recommend getting a
different line (like Precision) over it? I remember the XPS is lighter and had
better battery life, but I might be wrong.

Also, I know most workstation Linux users prefer Ubuntu over other flavors,
but I personally usually stick with the Redhat family (like CentOS) since I
just know its commands and names better. Is there anything (features) I'm
missing concretely, by not using Ubuntu?

~~~
bproven
Some of the issues I had with 9550 XPS:

\- battery swelling

\- fan spinning on high speed for no apparent reason (not due to CPU load)

\- random wakeups while sleeping (happened in my bag once and the laptop
almost overheated :( ). This was eventually fixed via BIOS updates

\- lots and lots of BIOS updates to fix all kinds of issues- at least 1-2
every month since its initial release. Although I am glad they are being fixed

\- OEM wifi card (broadcom) was a POS in both Linux and Windows (Windows came
with the box). I replaced with Intel card and life has been great.

The above may not be a problem in current XPS (9660 I think), but I really
don't know. The XPS forums I have been to seem to filled with people with
issues and instead recommending Precisions if you are OK with a less gaming
based GPU. Plus you get business support and not the craptastic consumer
support. If I were to do it again and wanted a 15" I'd definitely go with 5520
precision.

RE: XPS size and weight vs Precision -> If you stick with 5000 series it is
almost the same box. If you bump to 7000 series you are getting into supersize
land (but you can also fill it with more goodies that of course weigh more).
The only downside is that all precision laptops are 15" \- if you want smaller
form factors you would need to go XPS (e.g XPS 13).

RE: Ubuntu v RH variants - it doesn't matter. Go with what is comfortable and
familiar to you. AFAIK Ubuntu may have a more desktop/laptop friendly setup
unless you go with Fedora (which is pretty much equivalent to Ubuntu non-LTS
versions).

One final thing: the one thing that the Dells have over the Macbooks is user
serviceable parts. IN the 15" models, you can replace SSD, WiFi, battery,
memory _very_ easily AND without compromising weight or size. I really wish
Apple would get off the thin -> super-thin -> paper-thin? ride and offer this
kind of modularity again. Hell at minimum allow replacement of SSD, memory....
but that is another rant for another time :)

~~~
delhanty
Thanks - v. informative.

Do you know how well Dell Precision does for international warranty and
support?

~~~
bproven
I have no idea - you would have to check with Dell Support

------
sigmonsays
I too am interested in this.

Not sure what your platform choice is, linux or windows, but this post is all
with a linux bias.

I have a 15" macbook pro from late 2013. I do not upgrade computers very often
and expect them to last a long time.

Laptops are especially hard because I am also a linux user who has never
operated a linux laptop. The departure from Mac leaves me with Windows which I
will not ever operate.

I've looked into this before am currently considering these

Thought about getting a super light weight low spec cheap laptop like a
thinkpad x220 or even a dell. Most the time my laptops are used as clients, so
I do not need too much. Running a web browser is the most intensive need these
days.

System76 - Gazelle or better. These look nice and are linux compatible.

Also, an article I saved to read later and still havn't found time
[https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/11/2/13497094/b...](https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/11/2/13497094/best-
macbook-pro-alternative-windows-laptops)

~~~
CyberFonic
As a programmer, I find going from OS X to Linux to be smoother due to both
being *nix derived. I know Windows now has Linux facilities, but from a
programming perspective the library situation is still a bit sloppy. Linux
ecosystem (I prefer Debian based, e.g. Ubuntu) is far more mature.

Of course if you are looking at playing games and being able to plug in just
about any piece of USB hardware, then Windows is always going to be better
supported.

------
acd
I would recommend Thinkpad T470s. I have used both Lenovo T460s, T470 laptops
and Dell XPS developer edition with Linux. I personally prefer the Lenovo.

Here is a detailed review of T470s [https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-
ThinkPad-T470s-Core-i7-...](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-
ThinkPad-T470s-Core-i7-WQHD-Laptop-Review.200880.0.html)

Here is ranking of Laptop brands by Laptop mag, Lenovo rank best laptop brand.
[https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/laptop-brand-
ratings](https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/laptop-brand-ratings)

~~~
pimeys
And they still sell the T25 model which is basically a maxed out T470 with the
perfect seven row keyboard. A superb laptop with Linux.

Soon though the T480 is out with the quad core ulv CPUs, so maybe waiting is
also an option...

------
ajford
I highly recommend a decently modern Lenovo Thinkpad.

The T470 and T470s/p are pretty nice. I managed to get a good bargin on a T460
off Craigslist, and it runs like a dream. After some minute tweaks (mostly
installing tlp), it's running Ubuntu 17.10 fantastically.

If you want something a bit smaller, the X series is the line with a 12.5inch
screen. Downside is the latest model (the X270) only has a FHD screen, with
1920x1080 max. The T470s and T470p both have a 14 inch WQHD screen with
2560x1440 max. The 15 inch T570 has a UHD screen with 3840x2160 max, which is
definitely Retina-like.

------
contingencies
I just did this because my _MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013)_ / 16GB /
1TB machine finally developed a hardware fault they want motherboard
replacement money to fix (occasional but frequent hard resets).

After checking the cost of a new MBP (basically almost same specs as the old
one, plus touch bar!) and then noticing a Dell sale on before Xmas here in
Sydney, I decided to replace it with a Dell XPS 15 9560 (laptop version, not
the split-part "2-in-1" version, in black, with max memory and hard disk) for
about ½ - ⅔ of the price of a Macbook Pro, but with better specs. The physical
build of the machine takes some getting used to but I prefer the keyboard
immensely, the black/carbon fiber finish is excellent and the high-grip "don't
fall off table" feature is also great. As I have been focusing on family over
Christmas and also have a company to run I am time short, so still setting up
Gentoo, but set myself the somewhat uncharted goal of ZFS root (achieved!) and
am enjoying the setup so far. Yet to finalize optimum video setup as the
machine has two chips, X11 does not yet want to function correctly with the
closed source _nvidia-drivers_ on super-new kernels, but it works awesome for
_angband_ and X does work fine with the open source _i915_ drivers. Current
notes on the Gentoo wiki at
[https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Dell_XPS_15_9560](https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Dell_XPS_15_9560)

~~~
krutzger
Seriously, you went from osx to Gentoo? It's like going from using computers
to designing your own cpus...

Just install Ubuntu and be done with it

~~~
contingencies
_Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly._

AFAIK, Gentoo is the best full-control Linux distro out there, possibly only
rivalled by arch. It's not for everyone, but I do want that level of control.
Using OSX I constantly run up against annoying irritations and have to spin up
special VMs, which is tedious. I gave it a good go - almost seven years.
Enough. IMHO ZFS root (snapshots and rewind) goes a long way towards resolving
the worst irritations in using Gentoo as a desktop OS.

~~~
mamon
Unfortunately, with Linux "full control" usually means "you'll have to
manually edit every single configuration file before your computer becomes
barely usable"

That's why I prefer distros that work out of the box, like Ubuntu, or Fedora.

~~~
contingencies
It's a matter of perspective and goals. If I just wanted a browser and access
to VMs or cloud environments I'd use a tablet and a bluetooth keyboard. You
can't learn things like changes in kernel configuration options, boot
processes, graphical environments, etc. simply by using someone else's default
configuration, only by reading and configuring yourself. Are these things
critical? Not for most people, but they certainly inform my work in many ways
and I would not consider time invested since the 1990s to have been wasted.
Many people enjoy learning and are able to leverage knowledge for creativity,
I am merely one of them.

~~~
CyberFonic
Along those lines the recent ChromeBooks are also worth consideration. You can
even run full Linux using Crouton if you are willing to make a small
compromise on the highest levels of security.

I have tried using tablets and BT keyboards, it works well, but I prefer the
all in one form factor of a simple notebook. BTW the Lenovo tablets with the
flip out stand are terrific on the desk and to hold. That rounded battery
compartment makes it feel like a spiral bound book when using it with Kindle.

------
O_H_E
I recommend checking out the "Galago Pro" from System 76, it comes preloaded
with Linux (actually their whole company is built on Linux), Good customer
support. They have been recommended various times in another HN threads

BTW: They are currently addressing the Intel ME problem.

[https://system76.com/laptops/galago](https://system76.com/laptops/galago)

------
orionstein
I'm running Arch on my Surface Pro 3 for work. It works pretty well for me.
Some hurdles, but it's nice to have the control.

~~~
CyberFonic
Did you wipe off Windows and install Arch from scratch? I have been
considering that, but haven't yet found any encouraging reviews on how well
that goes. Especially: can you use the pen?

------
yarinr
I'd look into the Dell XPS. Its build quality competes with the MacBook, it's
one of the smallest laptops of it size (either 13 or 15) and the 4k screen is
absolutely stunning (although some prefer fhd for the improved battery life).
I got mine recently and I'm loving it.

~~~
npolet
I've got a little 13" XPS Developer Edition and it's a really solid option.
The build quality is perfect and I've yet to come across any issues with it.
Use daily for web development in work and for personal projects.

With an i7 it runs really smooth. I opted for the FHD option for the longer
battery life, but would have gone UHD if I didn't mind about battery life.

It's really nice to see Dell make Linux part of it's line-up. Part of me
bought it as a little heads-up to Dell that Linux laptops are a good thing.
I've always just installed Ubuntu over existing windows laptops, but it's nice
to see it somewhat as a first class citizen with Dell.

~~~
krutzger
I think the Linux version of XPS is also $100 cheaper

------
thecrumb
Thinkpad. If you hit the Lenovo outlet you can occasionally find a really good
deal.

------
dabockster
Buy a used IT laptop from eBay and install your favorite Linux flavor on it.

------
noir_lord
I have a T470P, Core i7-7700HQ, 32GB RAM, NVMe SSD. 2560x1440 matt IPS
(excellent screen) with the larger 72whr battery.

Cracking machine for the price works great with Linux.

------
tonymet
.Dell XPS 15 4k with windows 10 pro. MS is all in on developers and releasing
more goodies every quarter.

------
krutzger
I see a lot of ThinkPads and Dells here, but how about hp? Are they good for
Linux?

~~~
ajford
I've heard decent things about the HP Spectre, but it was fairly new, either a
2016 or 2017 model. Some minor quirks with Ubuntu and older kernels, but I
think they got 16.04 or 16.10 working well.

~~~
krutzger
Sounds good. Spectre 360 looks as nice as the Dell XPS, if not better.

I also think they are a bit cheaper, but I'm not sure about hps track record
regarding quality and Linux support.

------
bovermyer
Asus Zenbook works well for me. I'm running Kubuntu.

~~~
craftkiller
I'd caution against Asus Zenbooks. My friend and I both got ux303ln's and
another friend got a different model with the same body. All 3 of us had
broken hinges (fully snapped) in less than a year. They put cheap plastic in
their hinges according to some videos on YouTube. Premium laptops should last
more than a year.

