

Spec work: for looser managers and employees. - stevoyoung
http://www.stevoyoung.com/post/28798619390/spec-work-for-looser-managers-and-employees

======
pbiggar
This ignores a lot of the details of the real world:

> Because you should have enough public examples of your work avalaible for
> your potential employer to evaluate. If you don’t, for whatever reason, then
> take yourself a little more seriously and get some public stuff out there.

Many people don't have this. And why would they: it's hard to evaluate a
candidate via bits of random code and half finished projects which took their
fancy, that they worked on on their own.

> Employers … you ask for spec work when you are incapable of evaluating a
> candidate based on interviews and existing work.

That's right. It's fucking impossible to evaluate someone based on an
interview (there have been hundreds of posts to HN on this topic in the last
few years). Existing work is hit-and-miss.

I personally feel that spec work is the only way to seriously evaluate people,
with the caveat that _we pay for it_. If you're serious about interviewing
this person, paying their day rate for a day of their time is a reasonable way
to ask people to do this.

~~~
stevoyoung
>"Many people don't have this. And why would they: it's hard to evaluate a
candidate via bits of random code and half finished projects which took their
fancy, that they worked on on their own."

I do agree with everything here except "why would they". I have tons of old,
unfinished, half baked code /designs lying around. I wouldn't show any of it
to a future employer. What I would show them is something that I took real
time and effort to do. Often time that's something for my self, an open source
contribution or refactoring a side project to make it "usable". This takes a
lot of time. But if you ever want to be in the position of choosing who you
work for this is needed. That's all that I'm suggesting. The alternative is 6+
hours of spec work for every job you want to get. Which is mostly not reusable
because it's company specific.

>"That's right. It's fucking impossible to evaluate someone based on an
interview (there have been hundreds of posts to HN on this topic in the last
few years). Existing work is hit-and-miss."

I mostly agree. I think multiple interviews with multiple people and talking
through problems and design/development problems can greatly reduce the gap of
it being hit-and-miss. I'm also not suggesting this is cheap to do (for both
employee and employer). But hiring someone or starting a new job should
require a lot of investment on both sides.

> " ...with the caveat that _we pay for it_. If you're serious about
> interviewing this person, paying their day rate for a day of their time is a
> reasonable way to ask people to do this."

I wish more folks did this. You obviously take hiring seriously. I bet you
have many sold folks at your place.

~~~
pbiggar
> You obviously take hiring seriously. I bet you have many sold folks at your
> place.

Very much. It's easy to get burned. We're young so we just have one employee,
but we paid him 8 hours work to do a small project, because we wanted to see
what he could do in 8 hours. It was great so we hired him.

> Often time that's something for my self, an open source contribution or
> refactoring a side project to make it "usable".

I don't find this to be terribly valuable, personally. Its great to see that
you can pick up a strange project and quickly make a valuable contribution,
but it says very little about whether you're a good coder.

> if you ever want to be in the position of choosing who you work for this is
> needed

I disagree. To do this you need to be a great coder/designer, and there are
many ways to demonstrate this. Lots of open source is a good way, but a small
amount of open source, or just a couple of side projects you worked alone on,
isn't a great way, IMO.

------
tptacek
_Can you imagine asking a lawyer or doctor to do spec work before “hiring”
them?_

Yes, for lawyers; I can imagine doing that because it is an absolutely routine
practice. If you are at all likely to be a serious client, lawyers will give
you hours and hours for free. Why wouldn't they? No invoice denominated in
single-digit hours is going to move the dials for them anyways.

~~~
stevoyoung
a point of clarification...you (aka employer) do not decide if a lawyer (aka
employee) gives you "spec" work. He does. And he only does it if he thinks it
will give him a sweet payout or he is guaranteed the $ (win the case). This
works well for him because those "sweet payouts" are often in the tens or
hundreds of thousands of dollars. Comparing spec work for designers and
developers to a lawyer is, well, not exactly reasonable.

It's more accurate to compare large ad agencies to the lawyer analogy. Which
then, makes complete sense.

Back to my analogy. You will never go into a lawyers office and demand he
"write a case study and strategy document" for how he plans on dealing with
your crazy neighbors because they killed your dog. He will laugh you out of
his office, while sending you a bill for wasting his time. But...you can walk
in and ask his opinion, get a feeling for his ethics and ask for references.
This is akin to the interview for the designer or developer. I see nothing
wrong there, on either side.

~~~
tptacek
I really don't follow this at all. Is your point that designers should avoid
doing spec work for clients that are unlikely to be lucrative? Ok. How about a
step further, and recommend avoiding doing _all_ work for clients who aren't
lucrative? Life is short.

As someone who has done pretty significant work with lawyers, especially
lately: I think you're drastically underestimating how much lawyers will do up
front for free.

~~~
stevoyoung
My original point is that if managers took recruiting more seriously and spent
more time and money on finding the correct person they wouldn't need to ask
for spec work.

My point in this rabbit hole is that doing "free aka spec" work for a lawyer
vs designer/developer is completely different. With a lawyer you are talking
about possible payouts that can equal to months, or even years of salary. For
designers/developers the typical payout for spec work (for freelancers) are
more like weeks.

Granted, this whole discussion around lawyers doing spec work vs
designers/devs doing it is a bit convoluted. I shouldn't have used lawyer in
the example, though I still don't think someone goes into a lawyers office and
says "in order to work with me you must complete the following tasks". That's
what happens to designers and developers, which I think it BS.

------
dfc
Doctors and lawyers do not need spec work because of professional
licenses/certifications. The ABA asked your lawyer for spec work when she took
the bar.

 _Dictionaries: not for loser bloggers_

~~~
stevoyoung
First off, I agree, my spelling sucks. Oh well, let's move on. Oh and I'm a
looser, I'm good with that too. +1 for you, Mr. Cool.

Secondly, saying the ABA ask for "spec work" is like saying college ask for
"spec work". You have to do it to be in the profession. It's an exam, it's
mandatory to be in the field. Spec work for developers / designers is not.

>"Doctors and lawyers do not need spec work because of professional
licenses/certifications."

That's my point exactly, thanks for agreeing with me. Designers and developers
lack any real formal "licenses/certifications". Their public work should take
the place of "licenses and certifications". That's why you should hire them -
not because they got suckered into doing 6 hours of spec work for you.

~~~
lox
Lawyers frequently work on a purely speculative basis. Either via free
consultations or contingent fees (paid only on a win). It works pretty well
for them. There is even a marketplace for crowdsourcing legal opinions from
qualified lawyers (<http://www.lawpivot.com>).

Offering low-risk initial engagements mean they create a whole new market
segment made up of people who previously wouldn't have considered paying a
lawyer. Provided this market segment then goes on to actually generate paying
work, this works great. This is the case with many industries.

~~~
stevoyoung
Hand picking clients to do spec work that can result in tens or hundreds of
thousands of dollars isn't a bad idea (aka lawyers). Someone who can take on
spec work with the possibility of making two years salary vs someone taking on
spec work to make a few weeks worth of salary is completely different. Taking
on spec work makes sense if you need the money (I've been there) or you are
vying for a very large contract (ad agencies, lawyers etc)...or I guess, if
you are positive you can win the work/contract.

I never said spec work doesn't work. I'm simply suggesting that with more
care, attention and commitment (especially to spend $) from folks hiring it
isn't needed as much ask people think it is.

...and let's be honest here. Folks coming to your site looking for spec work
do not fall into the "committed to spend $ on finding the correct person"
category. I'm not suggesting that's a bad thing. As one of my replies above
state, I think there is room for 99designs, on both sides of the table.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, btw.

------
feverishaaron
What he is calling "spec work" would be better described as a "challenge
project". I think these provide a lot of insight that you wouldn't have the
opportunity to receive via the standard portfolio/github and interview
process. If you give a job candidate a small project (3-5 hours tops), you're
able to see how they solve problems and most importantly, how they interact
with your team.

I've asked "A player" candidates to perform challenges, and I have happily
performed them myself to get a job. And as a candidate, there have been a
couple of time where I've realized via the challenge process, that I wouldn't
want to work with a particular group.

It's a smart use of time by both parties to quickly determine if the candidate
is indeed a good fit for the position.

Spec work, as in completing a project to receive consulting work, is an
entirely different debate.

~~~
pbiggar
I feel that companies should pay people to complete these "challenge
projects". Once I interviewed with 3 different companies that asked for a
challenge project, which were expected to take 2 days in one case, a week in
another case. If you're paying, I'll do it happily.

~~~
feverishaaron
I feel your pain. Two days to a week is "free work", not a challenge project.
I too would respectfully decline if I wasn't getting paid.

------
iamdanellis
Why do others have to tell designers what they should and shouldn't do? They
are smart enough to make their own decisions. I think it all depends on the
project, the company, brand, and opportunity. Crowdsourcing and a traditional
design process can still coexist.

I wrote a short blog post on this here: <http://blog.fantastic.me/2012/08/is-
sepc-work-evil.html>

------
kevinconroy
We're hiring - no spec work, and if we did have spec work, we'd pay you.

[http://www.globalgiving.org/aboutus/jobs/software-
engineer-f...](http://www.globalgiving.org/aboutus/jobs/software-engineer-for-
good.html)

------
wilfra
The designer revolt against 'spec work' is a byproduct of 99designs and
crowdSPRING doing an excellent job of disrupting the way people hire
designers. They want things the way they were: high prices and no competition
once you find clients who like your work. However that isn't the best system
for anybody other than them, which is why people are embracing a better way to
do it.

Adapt or die, designers. The market is now a meritocracy. And that's the way
it should be.

Now if only somebody would do this with programmers...

~~~
stevoyoung
Actually, and this in not meant in the dickish way it's going to come across,
the designers / developers who do work for $75+ an hour do not lose sleep over
99designs. I would never participate in 99designs but I recommend it to people
all the time.

"Hey I need a logo/website, can you help or recommend someone?" "Sure, what's
your budget?"

"$350, but I can spend $450 if I reaaaaaaaalllllly need too"

"Oh, that's great. I'm too busy to take any work on but you might have some
success with a site called 99designs.com...(explain how it works).."

"...REALLY? that's how it works, that's fantastic. thanks for the
recommendation"

~~~
wilfra
Just because somebody responds with a budget that is worth your time does not
mean they also should not use 99designs.

The difference between the best designers there and the designers who need to
be paid thousands just to open photoshop is not talent or experience - it's
just their sense of entitlement.

~~~
stevoyoung
Sure, they could still use 99designs. But if they are in my target market why
would I refer them to a competitor? That doesn't make sense to me...

I agree, some folks have a terrible amount of talent and don't know their
value. I see it all the time. But, I wouldn't make a blanket statement and say
"all designers are equal", which is essential what you are saying.

You can call it entitlement if you would like. I call it I've worked my ass
off for many years and now have the luxury of only accepting gigs that I want.
This isn't about being a dick, it's about doing what's best for me and my
family.

~~~
wilfra
"I wouldn't make a blanket statement and say "all designers are equal", which
is essential what you are saying."

I said the _best_ on 99designs and guys who want $5k to do a logo are equal.
Not every designer is equal.

"You can call it entitlement if you would like. I call it I've worked my ass
off for many years and now have the luxury of only accepting gigs that I
want."

This is what overpaid people in dying industries always say and think. The
market doesn't care how hard you worked or what you think you deserve. Of
course, you know this, which is why you made this post and why you want people
to think designers doing spec work are 'one step above useless'.

~~~
stevoyoung
I'm not sure how you've manage to make all of those conclusions base on my
post. But anyhow, I'll address them since you took the time to reply.

>"This is what overpaid people in dying industries always say and think."

I would beg to differ. The UX design and developer market is no where near
dead. I'm not sure where you've been, but the market is in fact booming. I
don't consider myself over paid. In fact, I know many folks that are paid more
than I am.

>"The market doesn't care how hard you worked or what you think you deserve."

You are correct, they don't care about what I think I am worth. Well, except
when pay me for a gig.

>"Of course, you know this, which is why you made this post and why you want
people to think designers doing spec work are 'one step above useless'."

Actually, per the first paragraph of my post, I wrote it because a friend was
recently being courted by a very large tech company (not by his doing) and
then they sprung a 5+ hour "spec" work assignment on him.

