
Codename: Obtvse - nwienert
http://natewienert.com/codename-obtvse
======
cletus
While I'm generally sympathetic to the plight of people who have their work
ripped off, I can't muster a sense of outrage here.

Fact is, _one guy_ cloned what was a closed platform (that had been openly
announced and displayed) _based on the idea and screenshots alone in about 11
hours_ (based on the HN submission interval).

If someone can do that--and does--you really haven't invented or created
anything (substantive).

This just leaves the issue of whether the _design_ and the _assets_ (CSS,
images, etc) are substantive and have been used without permission. Based on
other comments, there seems to be no issue of asset "theft".

So does the minimalist design copy warrant outrage? Honestly, no. Someone has
basically invented what amounts to a Wordpress theme.

If dcurtis can create a scalable, _reliable_ platform for hosting it then
great. It worked well enough for Wordpress.

Exclusivity and invite-only are time-honoured ways of scaling controllably and
--let's be honest--creating hype and desire but if you're not ready for the
copycats and it takes the copycats so little time that their HN submission
makes it to the front page while yours is still there... that's your problem.

~~~
Confusion
I have the distinct impression that the people supporting Curtis's point of
view are mostly designers, while those supporting your point of view are
mostly programmers.

Let's attempt an analogy to bring these worlds together. You need an algorithm
to process some specific data faster than any generic off-the-shelf algorithm
can. Something like this: [1]. You post the results to HN, explaining exactly
what you came up with as a result of 10 years of experience and 2 days of
solid thinking on the subject. It actually turned out to be possible in
relatively little code. You haven't implemented it yet, but intend to.

11 hours later, someone has already implemented and open sourced it. People
argue you aren't being ripped off: after all, if someone can do that in so
little time, "you haven't really invented or created anything (substantive)".

I would disagree with such an appraisal: it's your experience that made it
possible for you to come up with this solution. That someone can implement it
in a couple of hours _once explained_ , does not reduce the value of the
solution. You could probably charge an employer $10K for this expert solution,
independent of how long it took you to come up with it. It's the same with
expert designs. Once they are shown to you, they are obvious. It's coming up
with them, and fine-tuning them, that's the hard part.

Now I'm not arguing that this is instance of expert design (I wouldn't
recognize it if I were slapped with it) and I'm not arguing anything about
this specific case (and I specifically do not think it is relevant to argue
about whether you lose rights by publishing a design/solution). I'm merely
arguing that the general argument that gets thrown around here just seems
wrong and insufficiently appreciative of how hard it is to properly _design_
something.

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3716458>

~~~
cletus
> I have the distinct impression that the people supporting Curtis's point of
> view are mostly designers, while those supporting your point of view are
> mostly programmers.

I can't give an authoritative answer to that hypothesis but my sense is that
while it won't be absolutely true there probably (IMHO) is some (probably even
significant) correlation.

You'll note I raised the question of whether the design itself (in concept) is
substantive. I don't think it's clear cut (either way) but my opinion is
largely "no".

> 11 hours later, someone has already implemented and open sourced it.

Here I think it is clear cut. An algorithm is nothing more than a mathematical
formula (with or without heuristics), as much as the US court system seems to
not understand. If you describe in English how to that formula works to the
point that someone can reproduce it then you've already given it away. The
actual implementation is nothing more than details.

I suspect you're right: designers will be outraged and see this as theft.
Programmers won't. I see the true value of this in the platform and the
tooling not the aesthetics. IMHO there are good reasons why design is largely
work-for-hire.

~~~
ma2rten
_IMHO there are good reasons why design is largely work-for-hire._

I am not a designer, but I feel I need to stand in for the designers of this
world here. Good design is not about the aesthetics at all, it is about the
way the product feels. User Interface design is a big part of it as well.
There are very subtle issues here, that you don't even notice unless you are
professionally trained to do so.

People here often complain about these Business guys, who think they have a
great idea and are looking for a code monkey to code it up. Please, don't be
the programmer version of that guy.

I'd suggest that every programmer, who hires or works with a designer should
at least know a little bit about design. This is for the same reason every
business guy should at least know a little bit about technology. For one, so
that you know how to hire a designer, who can do more than just beautiful
mockups.

 _I raised the question of whether the design itself (in concept) is
substantive. [My] opinion is largely "no"._

What is your opinion about iPhone ripoffs from China then?

~~~
nwienert
My opinion is that they suck. Because they do not (and cannot, largely) re-
create the experience and value of Apple's phone, no matter how much they copy
its look and feel. Of course a complex device like that has nothing to do with
a simple script running a website.

~~~
ma2rten
But you don't have any principle objections against them? What tells you this
script does not suck in comparison to the real one?

I think it would be fair to claim it is the same thing on a smaller scale,
because in both cases, it takes much more resources (and creativity) to come
up with the original idea/design than to create a copy.

~~~
kiiski
In comparison to the real one - which, for me, consists of a landing page -
this is absolutely brilliant.

------
reason
Guys, if someone dangled something in front of you with the initial impression
that you could have one, and you wanted it, only later to find out that you
actually can't have it and that those who could have it are "intelligent and
witty", implying that you are not, then I think it's pretty safe to say that
you'd run home, cook something similar up and run back to show that you have
one now too.

In fact, after reading the original article, I felt a bit slighted and thought
to myself "fine, I'll just build it myself".

~~~
54mf
Your metaphor is wholly flawed. This would be like if you wanted to get in to
a restaurant because of the great food, decor, and excellent ties the waiters
were wearing, but couldn't get in. So you went next door and created your own
restaurant with the same recipes, decor, and ties on the waiters, but let
anyone in.

Building something with similar functionality is one thing; building a stem-
to-stern carbon copy is just low class.

~~~
unalone
No, it would be like if a restaurant passed out flyers advertising its great
food, decor, and excellent ties, with a footnote at the bottom saying "PS:
only beautiful, successful, wealthy people are allowed in, and that doesn't
include you."

When the second restaurant opened, promoting its inclusionary nature and
affordable prices, I'd eat there every day for a week, because fuck those
first guys. Fuck 'em for thinking that their making something halfway
interesting entitles them to superiority, and fuck 'em for thinking the right
way to show off something interesting is to emphasize how you're not allowed
to try it out.

David Karp wanted a blogging interface that made blogging easier and more
beautiful and more diverse. Several years later, Tumblr is one of the largest
sites on the Internet. I don't like the direction it ultimately took, but I
admire the hell out of David for releasing his cool idea to users who then
turned it into something incredible and wholly unpredictable.

I also find it amusing that we're calling Svtble "great", when it's just a
simple, well-made tool with one neat organizational technique – it's like
Quietwrite with a todo list attached. Simple and well-made is much
appreciated, but you don't get to be a douchebag until you've actually made
something significant. Or you can make that thing and remain a nice and humble
guy, because the two are not mutually fucking exclusive.

~~~
kenkam
Agreed. If only the landing page said: "This is a network of bloggers by
invitation only while we iron out the kinks. Sign up to get notified when we
are open to the public." Then this would have turned out much more
differently.

Whether he wanted to open it to the public is another question though.

------
Permit
Dustin Curtis' outraged seems somewhat bizarre for someone whose blog/Twitter
logo is an obvious rework of the Flash logo:
[https://www.google.ca/search?q=flash+dc&hl=en&safe=o...](https://www.google.ca/search?q=flash+dc&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1SNNT_enCA471CA471&biw=1538&bih=839&tbm=isch&tbs=simg:CAESEgmXdw-T4So2QiFAmAs61EEH2w)

<https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1902246181/logo10.png>

Not that I fault either designer. I think they've both taken previous work,
improved upon it (or at least altered it), in some way before releasing it as
their own. I suppose I have trouble feeling sorry for Dustin after reading he
planned to open it up to those he thought worthy of its use.

~~~
54mf
How is Obtvse, in any way, an improvement upon or alteration of Svbtle? As far
as I can tell, it's a 1:1 clone, but "open".

~~~
ForrestN
Obtvse removes the two worst features of Svbtle: exclusivity and
condescension.

~~~
54mf
That still doesn't make it right to rip off someone else's work!

~~~
trebor
It would be wrong if NateW hacked into and stole the source, or stole the
design source/code of Dustin's project. But reproduction of someone else's
work isn't ripping them off but is a compliment (it means that it's worth
reproducing).

As good as Dustin is, neither his ideas or implementation of his blog/cms
platform are _that_ unique.

------
ForrestN
Those who are talking about this as if the design and concept are just being
stolen are acting, well, obtuse.

Wienert is not trying to pass this off as his own work. He's not selling it.

It's a few things, all at once: first, and foremost, it's a parody, skewering
the absurd arrogance of the original presentation; it's a generic drug, making
something which sure seems to be exclusive for bad reasons and making it
accesible; and it's a good example of someone taking matters into their own
hands.

Wienert was told something wasn't available to him because he's not witty
enough, so he went and built it for himself. To compare this to someone
stealing someone's intellectual property malevolently for personal gain is
missing the point.

~~~
irahul
> Wienert is not trying to pass this off as his own work. He's not selling it.

He can pass this off as his own work and sell it for all I care. I don't know
who created the first blogging engine, but do you believe all subsequent
blogging engines owe something to the first one, and shouldn't have re-
implemented and sold it without making it substantially different?

~~~
ForrestN
No, and I probably agree with you, but I'm just trying to point out that you
don't have to subscribe to what appears to be a more controversial idea (that
copying and possibly selling a piece of software is OK) in order to support
what Wienert has done.

------
anateus
Imitation, flattery, and so forth.

Taking an existing closed system and opening it is a pretty fundamental part
of the hacker ethic. However, it must be done in good faith and good taste.

This is neither. Yes, it's quite hard to draw the line for such things--how
big does a company have to be before it's ok? It's a tough question, but
despite that ethical uncertainty, this case is pretty clearly on the side of
"not ok". Disregarding more complicated moral aspects, this just isn't _nice_.

I really don't think nwienert's intentions were bad, but I think he should
reevaluate the choice he made here.

~~~
zackattack
> _this just isn't_ nice

Maybe if Dustin were a nice guy, your argument would have some validity.

~~~
dorian-graph
Why do people allow themselves to be puppets?

We should never give up ourselves to being/doing something simply because John
Smith does it.

------
nodemaker
Is it just me or is it really silly to fight over who really owns the UI of a
rails app that can be made in a few hours.

In my opinion the layout of a blogging website falls more in the realm of
fashion than intellectual property.

Some real intellectual property here is Rails itself which thankfully is open.

~~~
DanBC
Design, especially good design, is hard work. I totally understand a designer
being frustrated when their work is copied, even if that copying is reverse-
engineered rather than just cut and paste of the css.

Personally, I think the design is ugly and hard to use. The OP (of Obtvse
thread) should get a designer and make some much needed changes.

Edit: Downvoters - is it because I said design is hard work, or because I said
I thought the design was ugly?

~~~
Androsynth
I didn't downvote, but my opinion is this: if you don't want your design
copied, make a product that can't be copied easily.

For example, bitbucket copied githubs design for the most part, but people
still use github because there is so much more to their product. BB can copy
them all they want, but github will have the users and will be considered good
design while BB gets called a 'clone'.

If you make a blog platform, which is simple to clone, just open source it and
move on. This is a case where imitation should be flattery. Bask in the glory
of knowing the world is switching from wordpress to your platform.

(theres also longterm revenue possibilities in that case for a savvy
businessmen)

------
mtkd
I closed the original post as soon as I sampled the air of superiority that
seems to be ever more present with some "intelligent, creative, and witty"
developers and commentators.

Hail the disruption.

------
joshmz
How is it a ripoff to see something and build your own version? It's not like
he copied your codebase or logos or anything else. Is a Mercedes E-Series a
rip-off of a BMW 5-series?

I guess thats why many of you US guys like patents and shit so much. It just
makes no effing sense.

He created everything from scratch as far as I am able to see from the GH
repo. Thats completely fine with me.

~~~
willvarfar
Is the gimp a copy of photoshop? Is linux a copy of bsd?

Making a Free replacement or, more awesome, a better product is worthy of the
adulation of your peers.

When Microsoft China copied the layout of whatever website it was we all came
down on them from our principled pinnacles though, didn't we?

------
hannesfostie
What Dustin did, is build a blogging engine he wanted to use himself. He then
invited people he respected to write on the platform, people he knew would
deliver a certain standard of quality that he'd love to connect his name to.

He never said the platform would never be opened, in fact it looked like he
might do just that some day.

What you did was not just use a concept (add idea to list, expand on it and
then publish it when ready), you just took his entire design and published it
to the public. Taking a concept and opensourcing it is fine, copying a design
and mocking the original creator is not.

As much as I'd like to use Dustin's blogging engine (it's the way I'd like to
write), I will never use yours out of principle.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_...mocking the original creator is not._

Where did Nate mock Dustin, or even speak negatively about him? Reading his
post I find only one mildly negative comment:

"I felt Dustin missed out on what have been a great open source contribution."

~~~
hannesfostie
I assumed that's why he got the name wrong. He edited it after I wrote the
comment, I suppose it was a genuine mistake.

Still doesn't change how I feel about this. He could have opensourced the
engine on itself, taking the design as well is a blatant ripoff.

Another thing is this: _The goal is simple: when you see the Svbtle design,
you should know that the content is guaranteed to be great._

By stealing the design, he is completely boycotting Dustin at making this
vision of his come true.

~~~
yummyfajitas
The author has already changed the design in response to Dustin's criticism:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3744438>

I'd chalk the design similarity up to "I...typed in rails new obtvse, and _a
few hours later_ I'm here."

------
joeconway
As much as I would love to have access to svbtle I think this ia very good
clone which goes too far. Perhaps it would have been a bit more acceptable to
take inspiration from the great drafting/publishing pattern which is what
makes Svbtle great in my eyes, without mostly copying the UI. I understand you
were probably just trying to make a great tool available to the community
(Thanks!) but I think you're maybe giving off a false and malicious intent

~~~
nwienert
Thank you for the feedback. Perhaps I did go too far. I will reduce the visual
similarities and push up a less similar version. It really only took a few
minutes to reproduce.

~~~
amirmc
I don't think you should change anything. You put it together in a few hours
and I don't see a valid reason for changing it.

One guy being annoyed that his super-elite design can be replicated in _a
matter of hours_ is not a reason to backtrack.

~~~
judofyr
> One guy being annoyed that his super-elite design can be replicated in a
> matter of hours is not a reason to backtrack.

It took Curtis a lifetime of experience to end up with this design. Simplicity
doesn't mean there wasn't hard work behind it.

------
ux_designer
Dustin Curtis didn't create a blogging platform, he created another PR and
traffic grab. Which is great for his career and visibility.

But come on, the only way this could get any more farcical is if Dustin
revealed that he orchestrated this whole thing and is in fact both parties.

If I were Dustin, I'd be ecstatic that I'd almost permanently glued to the
front page of HN. Any publicity is good publicity.

~~~
zachallia
i hope he is both parties, that would be pretty epic

------
manmal
For me, wanting to set up my own blog soon, this ripoff is a goldmine. It's
very easy to start off from the current state of obtvse, customize the look
and implement custom features, and (hopefully) Nate and others will provide
updates to the engine. I say it's a gift to all of us.

------
dcurtis
\-- Removed. Perhaps I overreacted. --

As a designer, I find it somewhat perplexing that people here demand that code
be directly copied for something like this be wrong. Design is more abstract
than code, yes, but it's just as fundamental a part of the resulting product.

Copying design, especially when the original source is so obvious, has
damaging effects that are hard to quantify. Poor clones can directly damage
the creation of a strong original brand and can preempt future creative
product positioning. Because it is not user facing, identically copied code--
when the design has been changed--has no such effects. Why do so many people
believe that only copying code should be considered wrong when design has the
potential to be more damaging? To me, they are both equally wrong.

Great artists steal. Please steal my _ideas_. Take them, manipulate them, and
build them into something that is your own. I wouldn't have publicized my new
platform if I didn't expect the ideas to be used. Just please don't copy my
implementation or designs. I need those things to be sacred so I can craft
experiences that are not diluted by external factors.

~~~
nwienert
The work is all original, no code or images were copied.

As I stated in my post, I'll be changing my personal design shortly.

~~~
kellysutton
I am not one to start arguments online, but I believe you should double-check
your definition of original or buy a new dictionary.

~~~
__david__
No, he is correct and you are wrong. "Original", as used here, is a term of
art that means "not infringing anyone's copyright". Like it or not, "look and
feel" has not been established to be copyrightable. Just ask Apple:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Micros...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation)

------
brettbergeron
Sorry if I missed it, but it looks like the real victim of plagiarism would
be: <http://drawar.com/>

Honestly, nothing about the design or user experience of Svbtle was unique.
There have to be more examples, at least by coincidence, of other designs that
show prior use of similar typography and layout.

So really, this whole debate of originality seems moot.

------
drewblaisdell
Not to pass any judgment on this issue either way, but is there any way in
which this situation is not almost _identical_ to the visitor.js/session.js
situation a few months back?

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3435416>

~~~
hv23
Also not passing judgment, but here's a comment from that thread that might be
relevant here:

"I'm super impressed you turned this out so quickly. I think that really sums
up the spirit in the HN community... When you look at something that seems
overpriced (or wrongly-priced) and you say "hey, I bet I could do this""

~~~
jawr
That reminded me of pg's start.html:

"It's very dangerous to let anyone fly under you. If you have the cheapest,
easiest product, you'll own the low end. And if you don't, you're in the
crosshairs of whoever does."

------
willvarfar
We can all appreciate the pleasure Dustin got from _perfecting_ his Svbtle
design. His perfection of the authoring flow. Perfection is when there is
nothing left to take out, after all.

We can all thank Dustin for showing it to us so early.

And we can all imagine how he wanted to build a quality brand with it, partly
by vouching for the quality of those who use it.

You could imagine that monetisation might have been in there too - a
_startup_!

We like startups here; we all applaud.

We mustn't let Obtvse cheapen that.

~~~
davidw
> startup

Successful startups require a _barrier to entry_ for competitors, more often
than not.

~~~
willvarfar
interesting point, not sure; on the social web its community adoption over
technology every time

~~~
daeken
That _is_ the barrier to entry. Take Tumblr for instance: mediocre tech (just
going from experience as a user), but it has a massive community invested in
it. That is the barrier to entry; anyone attempting to go up against Tumblr
has to figure out how to build that community.

------
livebeef
When the technical entry level to join the competition is too low, you
_should_ expect clones.

Copyright holds automatically on all the code, but just the idea of that kind
of blog can't be considered a sufficient "level of creativity" to deserve
copyright protection.

------
jklm313
OP needs to read this: <http://drawar.com/d/the-language-of-design/>

~~~
manmal
There's a name for this: Cargo Cult - copying behaviour without understanding
why it exists in the first place. It's a part of human nature, even apes do it
(they copy your very moves if they like you). Since we still do it, I suspect
it has benefitted us during our previous evolution, and perhaps it still makes
sense sometimes.

~~~
nwienert
The point is, I'm not trying to build a brand, make money off this, or prove
anything whatsoever. It was really just an experiment... to see how quickly I
could do it and to see how people would react (and to make some good open
source software).

Notice the name, "obtuse".. But I am glad I got this response, it's been both
entertaining and enlightening!

~~~
wavephorm
Imitating something that already exists is nowhere near as difficult as
creating something truly unique. To create some that's never existed before
requires different skills. If know the exact storyboard, functionality, and
design should work, then you don't even have to stop and think about anything
while implementing it. You don't even need any trial error because someone
else did that work already.

Carbon copying for vanity just doesn't my respect.

~~~
wavephorm
Eesh I need to be more careful when writing on an iPad.

------
stevewilhelm
If anyone is looking for "prior art" for Obtvse or Svbtle should look at
Pivotal Tracker. Pivotal implements multiple columns of one line ideas, in
Pivotal's case they are features or bugs instead of blog posts.

------
ohsilly
From Nate's twitter feed: "Become good at cheating and you'll never need to
become good at anything else."

Pretty much sums it up.

~~~
nwienert
I stole that from Banksy ;)

Check out some of my original work: <http://gamegum.com>
<http://bassdownload.com> <http://vbseed.com> <http://webuildappsforyou.com>
...

Funny enough I wrote that before I had seen svbtle.

~~~
ohsilly
The thing is Bansky does it with a touch more class. :)

------
athst
I think that there's a distinction to be made between copying code and copying
design.

Design is hard, and even though a design might be quick to implement in code,
that doesn't mean the design was easy.

Just look at the Samwer brothers - they clone every good startup that comes
out. Is what they do okay? Maybe they don't copy any of the code from the
successful site, but they shamelessly copy the design, which is often the
hardest part of the creation process and the main reason why the original site
was so successful in the first place.

~~~
itsmicks
Didn't see this and brought up the Samwers as well. I think we're still in a
transition around here in terms of how "design" is valued but overall it seems
like things are improving.

------
DanBC
(<http://elliotjaystocks.com/blog/pirated/>)

Mentions this screenshot:

(<http://www.flickr.com/photos/elliotjaystocks/516412232/>)

See also the (now dead, unfortunately) pirated sites.

(<http://www.flickr.com/photos/piratedsites/>)

(<http://www.pirated-sites.com/>)

------
stravid
Copying my comment from dcurtis thread:

You say "In fact, it goes against the very ethos of Hacker News.", do you
think your action aligns with the "ethos of Hacker News"? Do you think it's
okay to rip-off something just because you think it shouldn't be invite only?

~~~
masklinn
Considering <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3435416>

Yes?

~~~
stravid
There is a difference between taking an idea and a design. Put the versions
next to each other and tell me they don't look like the same.

~~~
masklinn
> There is a difference between taking an idea and a design.

When the idea is the design (as is the case with visitor.js), no there is not.
In both cases, it's taking and reimplementing wholesale (but from scratch) the
closed product into an open-source one.

------
iamwil
I wouldn't worry about it too much were I Dustin. He'll keep continually
improving Svbtle from his design insights, whereas Obtvse likely will
stagnate. And if it doesn't, the contributors would all be programmers, given
it's hosted on github. Chances are, they won't use it often, and they won't
have the design intuitions that come with design experience and use.

Take it as a form of flattery and just move on. I have faith in his design
chops.

~~~
Androsynth
This is an excellent point! Design is supplementary to a good product. But
theres so much more to a good product than design.

If Obtvse is more popular than Svbtle in the long run, it will be because
Dustin himself failed _, not because the design was copied.

_ He's already made the wrong decision at every major point imo.

------
xbryanx
My Dad always said the best place to open a new suit store is right next door
to the oldest, most established suit store in town.

------
alpb
Anyone thinks to create a WordPress Theme out of this design? That would be
huge.

~~~
alpb
Ok, one of my friends started working on open source wordpress theme design
that clones this design. (as much as it can) in first version, we'll omit
comments (listing and posting) then maybe we can add. I'll let you know over
HN.

------
sp332
Why call him "Dean" when his name is "Dustin"? Is that part of the joke I
missed?

~~~
nwienert
Fixed, apologies.

~~~
sp332
You didn't fix all of them, search again

------
skeletonjelly
I felt the exact same feelings as the writer when I was reading about it's
growing interest.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3742647>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3737549>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731095>

This was until I saw Dustin say he was going to open the platform up to the
public. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3742596>

But congrats on going to all that effort to copy one of the most minimalistic
blog designs ever. Maybe Dustin should have made it more obvious what his
intentions were on the homepage.

------
instakill
It was only a matter of time, really.

------
farinasa
I posted this in the other thread, but I feel it's worth repeating:

I'm sorry, but isn't this just a reversion to late 90's style frame design? It
seems all you've done is build it in the latest trendy standards and add a few
little CSS tricks.

Minimalist design is supposed to be about presenting the content first and
foremost. But the content is overshadowed by your frame. Your name and flashy
CSS tricks are the only constants on the page and take up nearly 25% of the
view, but you claim you're trying to draw attention to the content? Perhaps if
the content you're presenting is you, then you have a successful design.

Of course this version removes the CSS stuff but I think my point stands.

------
dewiz
A blogger discover "drafts". He shares the idea only with VIPs. I'll use Gmail
drafts.

------
itsmicks
It's pretty clear that the innovation in Dustin's work wasn't the code -- it
was the interface. Pointing out that Nate built Obtvse in a day from scratch
is pretty meaningless and the fact that he bothered to recreate it makes it
pretty clear that Dustin built something cool. As a designer... it just feels
like this wasn't Nate's to open source and hopefully this will transition
further from the original.

On the flipside, if the Samwer brothers launched a version of Svbtle next week
in 15 markets, would the reaction be the same?

~~~
jasonlotito
> It's pretty clear that the innovation in Dustin's work wasn't the code -- it
> was the interface.

What part? While it looked pretty, I didn't see anything new or unique
(outside of the liking mechanism he uses).

~~~
itsmicks
Perhaps I'm not familiar, but what CMS/blogging engine looks like his and is
structured like his (esp in the admin)?

~~~
jasonlotito
The list of articles/ideas/drafts? The full screen editing mode? Which part?

I'll grant him the UI is new, but in essence, it's a skin over existing
concepts. And, to be clear, when I say UI, I'm referring to the the colors and
graphics. Sort of like someone coming up with a new theme for Firefox. You
still have the form of a browser, just with different colors, padding, and
images.

So again, I pose my question, where is the new, unique, non-obvious innovation
here? You seem to have some interest in defending this idea, so maybe you can
answer this.

I'm _not_ a designer, so clearly, I might be missing something.

Edit: Just to be clear here, for one example, was when I saw his distraction
free writing screen, it reminded me of the countless other implementations
I've seen for other blogging platforms, not to mention what's built into Word
and Pages (with Word's being far more elegant).

------
evertonfuller
I'm just struggling to see what's so 'revolutionary' about the design. It's
just a bland minimalist modern theme. Anyone could have made it.

Dustin's response was just plain rude, let's recap:

"This is almost unbelievable. No matter what you think about me or my product
decisions, it is flatly wrong to ripoff work. It's shameful, even. Please take
this site down and delete the Github repository. The work isn't yours. Just
wait until Svbtle is finished and open to the public. The reason it's closed
is really simple: it's not ready yet."

Get over yourself.

------
kveykva
dcurtis' version is generally more attractive in my opinion, and honestly
nwienert's site as a whole is less attractive than Dustin's.

Even if it is copyright infringement, at least there's that I suppose.

------
DanBC
Unreadable fonts. (Mac Book Pro; snow leopard; Chrome.)

~~~
dagw
Also very hard to read under Windows 7 and chrome

------
samstave
This is a really interesting circumstance.

On the one hand, I don't think the Obtuze is a theft of Subtle -- however I
talk crap about Zynga's idea theft (based on look feel UX mechanics etc) all
the time.

While this is a reverse of Zynga's for profit thievery - this is a "Robin-
Hooding" of sorts (taking a closed shiny widget and making an open shiny
widget.

Ill withhold judgement in this case as i feel it would make me a hypocrite.

------
flocore
Github: "TODO: Kudos"

Blogpost: "Kudos suck"

~~~
nwienert
Thats the joke...

------
Achshar
It's @dcurtis "concept" and let him decide, no matter how ethically wrong his
decision is, its his' anyway. Copying the concept and releasing it is
definitely not the right way of showing your discontent with his decision of
not releasing his work to public.

I have an app that is closed source (the kind of thing that you would expect
to be opensource but i decided not to). If someone thought that it was better
if it was open and copied the concept, UI/UX and released it, i would not be
very happy. Community and open is all good and i am all for it but i intend to
make a living out if it [my app] and won't be happy seeing it being released.
I don't know how much of a work the platform really was but my app was alot of
work. more than enough that i would enforce it's closed-source status.

~~~
driverdan
I have 2 words for someone in that situation: tough shit. I can understand not
liking new competition but that's business. Innovate, compete, or die.

~~~
Achshar
but in such case innovation is not an option. if the other person can copy
current app why can't he/she copy the innovation too?

------
zuralski
dcurtis - don't worry about Obtvse.

Just keep improving Svbtle and release it when it's ready.

~~~
dorian-graph
Those who clamour after Obtvse don't particularly seem like the original
target market. The 'Obtvse' network branding will have little weight as well,
I think.

~~~
drivebyacct2
Yeah it will be missing all the geniuses.

~~~
zuralski
Open Source is a long race. I believe Dustin cares more about HIS creation
than some guy who blatantly ripped it off.

To keep contributing to the open source, you need to care beyond "oh, I'm just
going to rip off this guy's design because I failed to ask him if he's
actually going to open source it, in the first place'.

This whole thing seems like terribly short-sighted thing to do.

So, Keep Calm and Carry On. The race is long.

~~~
drivebyacct2
I don't understand your post at all. There are hundreds of highly successful
long running open source projects and its absurd to imply that someone is more
invested in a project purely because it is closed source rather than open.

Further, my comment was merely a testament to the elitism mentioned elsewhere
in this thread in regards to Dustin's comment about how his private network is
full of geniuses.

When I first saw the screenshots I was impressed. Its nothing terribly new but
it is simple and streamlined... but I've been using drafts and published posts
in blogger and WordPress for years to do this

I was much less impressed after his comments about geniuses and his big play
about exclusivity. Its basically straight up "look at this cool thing that I
have, that you can't have, because I'm more of a genius than you."

This us of course isolated from the ethics of cloning the idea... but jeez, at
least don't act so damn surprised. This is typical of these scenarios.

------
obilgic
@dcurtis:

> Not only did that guy completely rip off my work, but he did it badly, he
> put the code on Github, and he got my name wrong. What a jackass.

> @natebirdman "Hey, I ripped off your work and put it on Github." Really?

------
timinman
<http://natewienert.com> resolves fine, but the link you provided reports:
"We're sorry, but something went wrong." :)

~~~
nwienert
Back up

~~~
timinman
Yes, back up for me now, too. You might want to advise users to change the
default password and login, since it's publicly viewable on github.

------
cjbprime
Dumb technical question: What's the purpose of the "Aside" flag in Obtvse? I
can see that it sets a class for CSS, can't see an equivalent in the Svbtle
UI.

------
obtu
Try this page until the site comes back up:
<https://github.com/NateW/obtvse#readme>

------
huhtenberg
A thing to keep in mind - dcurtis is building a business.

A high-profile high-traffic no-nonsense blogging site is a very valuable asset
- be it for the purpose of direct advertisement, product placements/mentions
or as an acquisition target. Positioning it as _exclusive_ and coming across
as _arrogant_ is actually a sensible marketing approach. The design is only a
part of the deal, but it's the content that really matters. Cloning the design
is surely not without consequences, but in a larger picture it's not that big
of deal.

------
dreamdu5t
By D. Curtis' own logic he ripped of the design of
<http://cargocollective.com/>

------
srik
It is NOT what the author of thisSvbtle wanted done with his project. He
explicitly stated that it wasn't ready for the punlic yet and would be
available when he worked things out. He might have seemed smug, but Im apalled
that bulk of the HN community seemed seemed to be OK with someone essentially
copying his project outright. Im not able to frame my answer better but this
is not how how mutually respecting communities are built.

------
woodall
I really love the hover-to-trigger buttons and think DC had a great product.
Why rush him to push it to market.

------
jamesjyu
Dustin Curtis should really be a marketing/pr person, specifically aimed at
startups.

------
fabfischer
Copying ideas or products happens all the time. Some make a lot of cash with
it: [http://www.techberlin.com/post/19732590058/true-story-the-
sa...](http://www.techberlin.com/post/19732590058/true-story-the-samwer-
brothers-are-now-cloning-amazon)

------
Stratego
If you want to roll your own, don't steal the man's hard design work if you're
going to plagiarize his concept anyway.

Dustin is often quite cocky, but I don't wish this kind of mindless copying on
anyone.

------
tworats
Putting aside the morality of this particular case, I'd point out that this
type of copying will discourage early sharing of concepts / projects on HN,
which is not a good thing.

~~~
cheald
Counterpoint: If your idea can be fully replicated in 11 hours as an
experiment, your idea might not be all that defensible/sustainable in the
first place.

------
NSElvis
Dustin Curtis was a superhero.

------
camwest
The thing he copied was already "open sourced" anyway the minute Dustin
blogged about it to the world.

------
caublestone
This is awesome, and a great step past the "Poker blog" you were running back
in High school :P.

------
AllenKids
Wow, just wow.

Guess people really like pirates then, of course, this is Hacker News after
all.

------
chj
when replicate something, do not show off how fast you can build it, because
it is just replication.

------
littlemerman
Thank you.

------
kiwim
Thank you for sharing it.

------
madasahatta
copycats are not cool cats

------
funkah
I'm sick of that invite-only horseshit too. If you're gonna share it privately
don't announce it to the world. Don't wave a steak in front of my face and
then walk it over to the VIP section.

I don't care if this is petty, I am serious as a heart attack about it now. I
refuse to use Google+ for this reason, and a couple other things too.

------
zackattack
Good job with this. I forked it in case you get a change of heart.

------
J3L2404
This kerfuffle is amusing on a site that believes copyright violation is a
moral imperative.

~~~
jcdreads
Without addressing the merits of either copyright or patent protection, I
believe you're confusing the two. Folks around here tend to believe that
software patents are bad; the view that copyright is bad is less widely
shared. In fact, open source licenses /rely/ on the protections afforded by
copyright law.

------
billpatrianakos
This is pretty decent example of the entitlement syndrome I see in the
design/development community. We somehow feel like all cool things should be
free (as in liberty) and open source and shared, hacked, modified, and
improved. And that's great! But when someone comes around with something cool
that isn't all of those things like Dustin Curtis did and someone else
subsequently clones it, we feel differently all of the sudden.

Why is that? We all love StackExchange but when an open source clone came out
about a month ago a lot of people were screaming "rip off!" Why?

It's really hard to judge when a clone is in poor taste and when it's
acceptable. It's an interesting question.

If I were judge I'd say Obtvse is perfectly legit. If Svbtle were for everyone
then I'd say the clone is in bad taste but it really was only matter of time
before someone brought it to the masses so long as the original would never be
offered to the rest of us.

But that's beside the point. I just think its so interesting that a group of
people who demand their music and media free just because they can, and extoll
the virtues of (F)OSS, demanding our software be free and throwing massive
tantrums when a developer of anything cool or useful doesn't publish the
source can turn around and say a clone of a piece of software that's limited
to a certain group is now not okay. This can be an IP issue and it's so
interesting how we put ourselves in the other guy's shoes so selectively.
Copyright, IP, etc. are the root of all evil one day but are useful and need
to be considered the next. Maybe I'm missing something but I find popular
opinion on this stuff funny at times.

This isn't an indictment of dcurtis or the creator of Obtvse. I personally
think both are awesome, I love that Obtvse now exists (because I would never
be invited to use Svbtle), and I think both developers are just plain awesome.
For me, it's just really interesting to see how one action is wrong (along the
lines of theft or infringement) but another in the same vain is seen as
justified by the same people. Maybe I'm the dumb guy in the room but I see
some cognitive dissonance here.

------
mkramlich
Then there's how us old farts blog:

vi something ...run script to maybe apply template, regen indices...
...preview locally in browser... ...maybe edit again... ...run script to
upload (if want to "publish"), commit to VCS, etc...

no fancy codebase needed. no web framework, no local web server, no
reinventing the wheel, etc. and the same tools used above to "blog" are also
used to do lots of other productive things, so leverages the same skill set,
exercises the same muscle memory, and more future-proofed.

------
deanpcmad
haha brilliant!

------
rprime
I assume something went wrong.

------
kveykva
Maybe asking first might have been polite, is that a thing? :/

------
damncabbage
I don't think building an open clone of a closed platform is a bad thing, but
using the same name is a bit of a dick move.

Suggested new name: Gavche

~~~
dbaupp
The same name? The original is "Svbtle".

~~~
damncabbage
Oh. Whoops. Now I feel very silly indeed. I'm not sure how I misread it that
badly.

(Clone away.)

------
54mf
[http://briefmobile.com/images/articles/galaxy-s-vs-
iphone.jp...](http://briefmobile.com/images/articles/galaxy-s-vs-iphone.jpg)

Mr. Curtis on the right. Mr. Wienert on the left.

~~~
nicholas_tuzzio
I agree with you in that people seem to be making waaaay too much out of the
fact that one of the two did it first.

------
nchlswu
I find it fascinating the disdain people have for Dustin because of his
attitude (which is pretty consistent if you follow him) and how he presented
Svbtle.

Clearly he was sharing some concepts and ideas that he felt were worth sharing
and may be useful to colleagues in the industry. But because of (perhaps too
'arrogant') copy and the fact that Dustin didn't want people to use it for the
time being, a significant portion of this 'community' felt compelled to simply
rip off his work in to spite him. I don't get it.

Without getting into the merits of when stealing something is justifiable why
is such maliciousness so 'justified' to some in this case?

