
An Update to Our Supercharging Program - maxerickson
https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-our-supercharging-program
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CydeWeys
Seems totally reasonable. Gas-powered cars cost a lot to fill up and
electricity isn't free either, so this totally makes sense. I'd rather go the
"pay by the kWh used" route than the "pay the entire expected lifetime cost of
charging built into the up-front cost of the car" route, because I know I
drive significantly fewer miles than average.

This charge also changes the economics of rolling out Supercharger stations,
to the point where they might actually become profitable (rather than being
loss-leaders). This means that more of them will be built. That's a great
thing.

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michaelmior
> our Supercharger Network will never be a profit center.

That said, certainly earning _something_ from supercharging stations helps the
economics of expansion significantly.

~~~
prostoalex
Those next to service centers are likely to be on Tesla-owned land lots, but
there's a bunch located in outlet malls and third-party parking lots. I'd
expect the landlords to want their piece of the pie or some semblance of rent
once there's a profit motive.

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brianwawok
Perhaps not. You get a rich guy with 100k to blow on a car locked in your
place of business for 30 minutes. Most companies would kill for that problem.

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prostoalex
Circa late 2017 (or let's get real, mid-2019) that gets diluted by median
income guys with 35k to blow on a car.

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jdeeny
The Tesla charging station where I live is located at traditional style
shopping mall, which is in deep decline. I'm certain they are appreciative of
any captive customer, and I wouldn't be surprised if they preferred increased
quantity at the expense of 'quality'.

~~~
prostoalex
This argument could be applied to a gas station, though, and gas stations
don't typically get free rent.

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adiabatty
It only takes 30 minutes to fill up a gas-powered vehicle if it's an RV. Plus,
you need to babysit the RV while it's filling and can't really wander off to
go shopping for 30–60 minutes.

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mrfusion
Im wondering if this post caused the change (or was the final straw)

[https://pay.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5bgdp5/another...](https://pay.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5bgdp5/another_supercharger_rant/)

Apparently they're getting hogged up by ride sharing companies. Some even have
their cleaning crews scheduled to show up at the super chargers to clean while
they're charging.

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adav
The car is self-driving and self-parking, right? For the problem of
supercharger bays being hogged by unattended fully charged (commercial) cars,
then perhaps the car can move itself to a non-charging parking bay once it is
fully charged?

EDIT: Ah, there's still a cable plugged in the side!

~~~
legolas2412
Umm, can tesla look around and identify parking spots it can take? That itself
seems like an impossible problem based on current computer vision capability.

Then what about reading signs on the parking lot, if it parks on a reserved or
handicapped spot?

Tesla's self park at home (forgot what they called it) is basically meant to
just drive straight into a garage. That's not going to do that job.

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jdietrich
>Umm, can tesla look around and identify parking spots it can take?

Yes.

[https://youtu.be/A5QFXrpQ-ps?t=2m27s](https://youtu.be/A5QFXrpQ-ps?t=2m27s)

~~~
legolas2412
That's a demo for future technology.

And it's more of a concept video. I wouldn't be surprised if it was
exaggerated with assumptions (like say Tesla knowing the maps layout + sign
placements on the roads+lot), because the real problem is far from being
solved. Even google uses high resolution maps for it's cars.

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maxerickson
It was clear enough that the Model 3 wouldn't have free lifetime charging, the
news is a fee to recharge other vehicles too.

I guess it isn't really that surprising, it doesn't make sense to have to
worry about future electricity costs when setting prices for the vehicles.

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paulsutter
Net net: they intend super chargers to be for travelers and not everyday use.
Probably because the super chargers are getting clogged up with people who are
actually driving locally and could have charged at home.

~~~
baddox
Seems like they could handle that problem directly, considering the cars have
GPS.

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jdbernard
It's almost always better to change the incentives to encourage the desired
behavior rather than to try to police behavior directly.

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baddox
You would just charge money for Supercharger usage that isn't part of a long-
distance trip. The price would still be affordable, just like this article
describes. In other words, it would be just like the upcoming situation the
article describes, except that Superchargers would be free if the car's GPS
demonstrates that you're on a long-distance drive.

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geuis
This is awesome.

When something usually goes from paid to free, it's an indicator the product
fit isn't working. In this case it's the opposite.

Now we're seeing the free incentive to buy being given a marginal cost to help
ensure the spread of the service. This is likely because of increased usage
and/or projected demand. So basically, it's a sign Tesla is doing ok.

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ceterum_censeo
Is the current free Supercharger access tied to the owner or the car, i.e., if
I bought a pre-2017 Model S where the previous owner had free Supercharger
access, would I also have access?

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timdorr
The wording ties it to the car, not the owner/driver. "For _Teslas_ ordered
after January 1, 2017"

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mhandley
I think it's pretty clear that although they may succeed in ramping up
production of the Model 3 fast enough to satisfy advance orders, they probably
can't ramp up installation of superchargers to match. There are economies of
scale that apply to car production that aren't matched by the ability to get
physical locations upgraded with the necessary high-current wiring, let alone
contracts with whoever owns all those locations. If they don't reduce demand,
they're unlikely to cope, and charging money is the obvious way to achieve
this.

Once they're charging to charge, it makes sense to come to agreements with
other manufacturers of EVs to use each other's charger networks. In the long
run it makes no sense to have multiple networks of vehicle chargers, just like
it makes no sense to have gas stations that only fill Fords.

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EngineerBetter
In the UK, Ecotricity give me 52 fast-charges (30 minutes at 43kW) a year on
their motorway (freeway) charging network for free as I use their 100%
renewable tariff for my home electricity.

Tesla's allowance seems pretty weak by comparison. In fact, their allowance is
only 35% of what Ecotricity offer.

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sqeaky
Can you use both?

~~~
EngineerBetter
If one has a Tesla, yes. I currently drive a Renault Zoe which is incompatible
with Tesla superchargers, but had been considering buying a Model X.

A Tesla could charge at either 22kW using the Type 2 Mennekes connector, or if
the owner has a CHAdeMO connector (about £250 from Tesla) at 50kW. Both a lot
slower than a supercharger's 120kW.

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dswalter
Since 1000 miles/year is not enough to pay for actual use for almost anyone,
this move effectively means new model Teslas have to pay per Supercharge
visit. Non-free Supercharging should open the quick-charge market up to much
broader competitive market forces.

~~~
vvanders
Really? I think I use ~500mi a year, mostly to make the last leg of a ~300mi
trip. It's meant for traveling and not as a replacement for charging at home.

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gigatexal
This feature was bound to go freemium: first make it free to build an
infrastructure and have cars that need the charging stations then slowly
ratchet up the pricing to make it another revenue center

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Tepix
Except that they wrote:

> our Supercharger Network will never be a profit center.

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fragmede
Sadly, that's not a legally binding contract, and even if it were, it's too
short and doesn't define things like "profit center", leaving a lot of wiggle
room. Never is a long time. Elon Musk won't be running Tesla forever. Tesla
may not even be around in 50 years. (I hope they are.)

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maxerickson
The easiest out would be to sell most of the stations.

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tshannon
So 1000 miles doesn't seem like a lot. That's like one roadtrip and your
annual allowance is gone. I wonder what the small fee will be after that.

Also, I wonder how they will be tracking usage? In the car or the supercharger
network? I would assume the supercharger network, but does that mean that when
you plug in, your car sends a unique identifier? I'm curious how that all
works.

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robalfonso
They did say on average it would be less than a comparable gas fill up, so not
exact but an indication it would be a fair price.

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pilom
True, but if the cost of gas jumps back to >$4 where it was 2 years ago, will
the cost of a supercharge go up as well?

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BooneJS
If that SC unit is powered by a natural gas power plant, I would assume so.

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woliveirajr
The only relevant point that's missing is the economics of that.

If your car < 2017, free supercharge on some models. If your car > 2017,
there'll be a fee after some use (1,000 miles, more or less).

What will be the price of the cars > 2017? What will be the fee? It might be
fair (if the price reduces enought so that the fee is compensated during the
car's lifetime). It might be tricky (no price redution and a fee that just
annoys those who travel and count on supercharge).

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Shivetya
One would hope the price would drop on S/X models to reflect it but then
again, they really don't need to as it may not be a major factor in sales.

It will be very interesting how they handle people who park overnight or
groups which hog existing sites. They probably need to set a limit for
existing cars, high enough to not annoy non commercial owners.

Plus, it might be a subtle way to increase sales last quarter.

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makecheck
Supercharging supposedly reduces battery life so it was never really something
you would want to do frequently anyway. They have always encouraged charging
overnight (taking a few hours instead of a few minutes). Their proposed annual
limit on “free” seems totally fine.

~~~
lorenzhs
There was an article on here recently that suggested that this may actually be
false, and that at least occasional supercharging might be good for the
battery. There isn't quite enough data to make a firm claim, but it's an
interesting observation nonetheless. Speculation was that the battery is hot
for a shorter amount of time when supercharging.

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PinguTS
Talk to anybody from research. Fast charging was and is never a good thing for
any-kind of battery.

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toomuchtodo
Tesloop has charged their Tesla Model S vehicles to 100% constantly for almost
200k miles, and their batteries have only experienced a 6% loss of capacity.

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jasoncchild
I wonder how many commentators have experience building charging stations?

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jasoncchild
I wonder because hacker news has a very diverse readership

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Already__Taken
Can you swap batteries at these stations now? I saw the removable demo when
announced but its it a thing now?

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davej
No. They ran a trial but Musk said the demand wasn't where it needed to be for
the economics to make sense.

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csours
Page not loading correctly for me, and it's not in Google's cache yet. Can
someone copy-paste here?

~~~
aram
It works just fine for me; maybe try again. In either case, here's the text:

Four years ago, Tesla introduced the Supercharger Network – the world’s
fastest charging solution – to enable convenient long distance travel. Today,
more than 4,600 Superchargers allow over 160,000 Tesla owners to drive across
the continental U.S., from the Arctic Circle to the south of Spain, and across
all of the population centers in China and Japan, among many other places.
Supercharging has even helped owners drive their Teslas around the world.

We’ve designed our network so that all customers have access to a seamless and
convenient charging experience when they’re away from home, as our intention
has always been for Supercharging to enable long distance travel. That’s why
today we’re announcing a change to the economics of Supercharging – one that
allows us to reinvest in the network, accelerate its growth and bring all
owners, current and future, the best Supercharging experience.

Ensuring Use for Long-Distance Travel For Teslas ordered after January 1,
2017, 400 kWh of free Supercharging credits (roughly 1,000 miles) will be
included annually so that all owners can continue to enjoy free Supercharging
during travel. Beyond that, there will be a small fee to Supercharge which
will be charged incrementally and cost less than the price of filling up a
comparable gas car. All cars will continue to come standard with the onboard
hardware required for Supercharging.

We will release the details of the program later this year, and while prices
may fluctuate over time and vary regionally based on the cost of electricity,
our Supercharger Network will never be a profit center.

These changes will not impact current owners or any new Teslas ordered before
January 1, 2017, as long as delivery is taken before April 1, 2017.

The Road Ahead Just as you would charge your cell phone, we believe the best
way to charge your car is either at home or at work, during the hours you’re
not using it. For travelers, the Supercharger Network has become a powerful,
unique benefit of Tesla ownership. As we approach the launch of Model 3, this
update will enable us to greatly expand our Supercharger Network, providing
customers with the best possible user experience and bringing sustainable
transport to even more people.

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todd3834
How much does it cost to charge a Tesla at home on average?

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maxerickson
Electric prices in the US vary from around $0.07 per kw-h to over $0.20 per
kw-h, so charging cost will vary that much too.

For the largest Model S battery (100 kw-h), the math is real easy, ~$7 to
~$20. They say 300 miles range for that battery.

~~~
honkhonkpants
I think your max price is a little low. In California PG&E territory the top
tier costs $0.40 per. If you have the EV plan it can cost up to $0.44 during
daylight hours in the summer.

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maxerickson
I managed to say over $0.20.

I think using what is basically a penalty rate that an electric vehicle owner
agrees to in order to get cheap overnight rates as the max would also be a
mistake. Those customers pay ~$0.12 to charge overnight.

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quotemstr
Or: Advancing Our Amazing Superchargers

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S_A_P
edit, I mis read and thought it was 1k per month. my argument is pointess now.
sorry about that.

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andrewpi
It's 1000 miles of free power a year, not a month. So this is nowhere near
providing enough power for the average annual US driving distance.

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S_A_P
yikes, totally misread that thank you..

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pcurve
Who else knew what this was going to be about even before clicking on it?

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kylec
I knew this had to be coming eventually, but I don't think anyone knew the
details.

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TorKlingberg
Fair enough, but this part seems worrying:

> fee to Supercharge which will be charged incrementally and cost less than
> the price of filling up a comparable gas car.

Electric cars should be much cheaper to run. Local wholesale electricity price
+ X% would seem more fair.

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tjic
I hate the word "fair". It means nothing.

If Tesla is charging more than you think fair, set up super-charger stations
next to theirs, and charge wholesale electricity + X%; you'll make a killing.

