
GNU Mailman is now hosted on GitLab - mostafah
http://www.list.org/devs.html
======
rkangel
It's nice to see projects using other things like Gitlab a bit more. I like
Github very much but it looked like it was heading in the direction of a
monopoly which isn't great for anyone.

We use Gitlab at work and I like it very much (but as it replaced Subversion,
maybe I'm a little biased).

Edit: Fixed the stupid Github/Gitlab swap

~~~
sytse
I think in the sentence were you're talking about a monopoly you mean GitHub
and not us :)

~~~
pwny
I just want to say (since you're here and this is a post about Gitlab) that
your product is awesome.

A few friends and I spun up our own instance of the CE about a week ago
because we weren't too happy about Github's stance. It was incredibly easy to
set up and it works flawlessly on a small 1 core, 2Gb VM.

A little off topic but can you share the effect the recent Github stuff has
had for Gitlab? Did you get a lot more traffic?

~~~
rubiquity
I'm out of the loop I guess but what is "the recent GitHub stuff?"

~~~
PLCC
The open code of conduct they have adopted.

[https://github.com/blog/2039-adopting-the-open-code-of-
condu...](https://github.com/blog/2039-adopting-the-open-code-of-conduct)

[http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/](http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/)

>Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions
like “hug” or “backrub”) without consent or after a request to stop

>Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over
privileged people’s comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding:

    
    
        ‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’
        Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing this with you”
        Refusal to explain or debate social justice concepts
        Communicating in a ‘tone’ you don’t find congenial
        Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions
    

>Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honor diversity in
age, gender, gender identity or expression, culture, ethnicity, language,
national origin, political beliefs, profession, race, religion, sexual
orientation, socioeconomic status, and _technical ability_. We will not
tolerate discrimination based on any of the protected characteristics above,
including participants with disabilities.

~~~
amyjess
Yes, that CoC is seriously creepy.

Saying "we're going to protect some groups but not others" is absolutely
abhorrent. Either forbid _all_ racism or allow everything (and just to make
this clear: I'm very much on the side of forbidding all racism, no matter what
race it targets), but saying "we'll allow hate speech about one race but we'll
remove hate speech about another" is the literal definition of endorsing
racism.

And then the bit about "tone"; they're basically saying that they explicitly
allow blatant incivility. Now, that wouldn't be so bad if they had a "we never
remove anything" policy, but they clearly don't. If they're going to remove
bad content, then they need to have a policy of "keep a civil tongue in your
mouth or get it cut out".

Also, as a trans girl, I don't tolerate anyone in my life saying "die cis
scum" or #KillAllMen, and I call that shit out.

(edit: so, this apparently applies only to the projects GitHub maintains
themselves and isn't a site-wide thing, so it's not as bad as I've feared, but
I still don't like it)

~~~
dalke
> Either forbid all racism or allow everything.

It does prohibit all racism. ("We will not tolerate discrimination based on
any of the protected characteristics above [including race]".)

It's impossible and unreasonable to forbid all discrimination. It deliberately
discriminates against racists, for example.

"Blatant incivility" would not be welcoming, so would be counter to the stated
goals. The statement is instead that 'Communicating in a ‘tone’ you don’t find
congenial' is not an actionable complaint.

For example, if you believe otherwise then - and to use an example of a tone
argument that I do not mean to direct to you - "Why don't you calm down and we
can discuss this like adults?" This is a tone argument which implicitly and
incorrectly assumes that only someone who is emotionally upset (and likely
unjustifiably so) would have made that sort of statement.

I believe the overall policy _is_ along the lines of "keep a civil tongue .."
that you propose, though with more details about what is considered "civil".

------
davexunit
Disappointed that a GNU project would host their source code on a non-free
SaaS platform. Yes, there's a "community" version of GitLab, but that's not
what gitlab.com is running.

~~~
sytse
GitLab.com is indeed running GitLab Enterprise Edition. The reason is that we
want easy access to performance data for running enterprise features at scale.
You can run a GitLab.com SaaS with GitLab CE without any problems. There are
many organizations running GitLab CE with thousands of developers. Is there
any feature of which you think it is unjust that it is on GitLab.com but not
in GitLab CE?

~~~
davexunit
>Is there any feature of which you think it is unjust that it is on GitLab.com
but not in GitLab CE?

Any feature which cannot be self-hosted, and any minified JavaScript served to
the users without the corresponding source code available. A GNU project
depending on SaaS harms GNU's mission.

I'm not sure if this is still the case, but GNU Mailman was using JIRA, too,
which is also very bad.

~~~
sytse
All features can be self-hosted by some are proprietary, the list can be found
on
[https://about.gitlab.com/features/#compare](https://about.gitlab.com/features/#compare)

With a GNU entousiast we looked into the javascript issue, all source code is
available via [https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-
ee](https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ee) and the license ensures all
downloaded javascript from GitLab.com is MIT licensed
[https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-
ee/blob/master/LICENSE#...](https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-
ee/blob/master/LICENSE#L11)

~~~
quot66555
If true, this would be a great opportunity to demonstrate use of something
like LibreJS ([http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/free-your-
javascript.htm...](http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/free-your-
javascript.html)). I don't think it's used very much but I like the concept. I
think it would distinguish Gitlab quite nicely.

~~~
mikegerwitz
I'm the one that worked with Sytse originally on liberating GitLab EE's JS. I
intend to submit patches for LibreJS as well, but I've been busy with far too
many other things.

Would you or someone else like to help? (Contact me at mtg@gnu.org)

------
ralmidani
GitLab is relatively more free than Github, in the sense that there is a free
version of the software you can host yourself.

But I still dream of an unequivocally free Git server and Web application,
preferably written in Python rather than Ruby. Is there a reason Github,
GitLab, and the now-dead Gitorious all chose Ruby?

~~~
iza
There is [http://gogs.io/](http://gogs.io/) written in Go

~~~
ynak
I'm looking forward it becomes v1.0. Gogs requires less system resources than
GitLab.

------
akhilcacharya
I thought this was old news. I've been using the Gitlab repo for weeks now.

~~~
sytse
It could have taken place weeks ago. I got a Google Alert with the repo this
morning and decided to tweet it
[https://twitter.com/gitlab/status/628546834013810688](https://twitter.com/gitlab/status/628546834013810688)
I think that is what lead someone to post it to HN

------
echelon
Gitlab?

Aw, man... My username is taken. I'm echelon at gmail, twitter, github... I
hate usernames so much sometimes.

------
manish_gill
Moving on from bzr finally. Way to go Mailman. When I did my mailman project,
I had to use a clumsy git-to-bzr interface. It wasn't good.

------
mr337
The thing about their SaaS setup for a tiny dev shop like us with two devs,
the smallest I can buy is a 100 pack.

~~~
sytse
I don't understand what you mean with 'SaaS setup'. Our SaaS service is free,
see [https://about.gitlab.com/gitlab-com/](https://about.gitlab.com/gitlab-
com/). You can use GitLab CE for free on your own server
[https://about.gitlab.com/downloads/](https://about.gitlab.com/downloads/) or
get GitLab EE with a subscription
[https://about.gitlab.com/pricing/](https://about.gitlab.com/pricing/) The
most affordable subscription can be bought in 10-user packs, $390 for 10
yearly users.

~~~
ultramancool
Have you considered doing a similar offering to JIRA? Currently it's a
fraction of the cost, $10/yr/product and has additional features for project
management.

~~~
sytse
GitLab already includes an issue tracker. If you want more advanced features
consider using it with a SCRUM tool
[https://about.gitlab.com/applications/#scrum-
boards](https://about.gitlab.com/applications/#scrum-boards)

------
j-pb
Good. They (GitLab) deserve all our support for having both a great and free
service as well as awesome open source software.

We've seen what happens with monopolised infrastructure with github recently.
I hope the whole github fiasco will bring more people to gitlab.

~~~
reddotX
what github fiasco?

~~~
ta140604
There have been a bunch, actually.

First one I can recall was the meritocracy scandal, where they tried to put a
rug promoting meritocracy, and their in-house feminist Julie-Ann Horvath
(nudged by her friends) complained in the general sense of "meritocracy is bad
since it's racist and sexist". The caved in and removed the rug.

Said Julie-Ann Horvath later got in a fight with a (CEO&founder)'s wife, left
the company and made another huge scandal. She accused the company of sexism
and sexual harassment (independent investigator found none, and other female
Github engineers said there was nothing wrong), accused a co-worker of
systematically removing her code from repos since, I quote, "I wouldn't let
him fuck me" (independent investigator found that he was actually fixing her
errors), and that CEO's wife overstepped her boundaries and used company
resources for her own projects [1] (independent investigator found that to be
true, and CEO stepped down).

JAH also complained of terrible sexual harassment - that is, men looking at
women spinning hula hoops. Women did not complain, but JAH got offended on
their behalf anyway.

In the end, she left with a loud door slam, smeared a bunch of Github people,
and in general had a huge meltdown on Twitter, as you do.

Then, as mentioned, there was a bunch of scandals where people had their repos
removed (like C+=, a language satirizing the more, uh, out-there ideas
expressed by the feminists; or a few repos related to GamerGate).

The latest in a series was a repo threatened with removal (or removed?) for
using the word 'retarded'.

Then they added a CoC endorsing anti-white racism and anti-male sexism:
"Github's new Code of Conduct says "Our open source community prioritizes
marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort." and will not
act on "reverse" racism, sexism, etc." [2]

Well, at least we have BitBucket, GitLab et al.

\----------------------------------------

[1] That's one empowered woman! What's not to like here? - TA

[2]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/3fpnuw/githubs_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/3fpnuw/githubs_new_code_of_conduct_says_our_open_source/)

~~~
jordigh
Sigh... there is so much wrong with what you've posted here, but I don't want
to get into a screaming match with you about it. I just wish you didn't
consider enemies the women who are trying to make things better for women, and
that you would not consider the majority opinion of Reddit to be correct.

I wonder how big this cultural divide really is, or if it just seems this big
online. In my usual workplaces, nobody would be as systematically angry as you
seem to be about a woman and a company asking other people to be nice.

~~~
striking
It doesn't seem to me that the user you're replying to is "systematically
angry." Furthermore, the independent contractors were truly independent, and
the Twitter meltdown and smearing were real. Those are real, harmful actions
which should not be ignored.

Furthermore, people are attempting to hold on to their ability to speak
freely, to not have to monitor their own speech. There is no way to stop other
people from being offended. No matter what you do, it will be offensive to
someone. So should that person have the right to police you and to take down
something that's yours? And what if you disagree with that person?

~~~
zajd
No, I can assure you "then they added a CoC endorsing anti-white racism and
anti-male sexism" is a phrase that betrays his political bent.

~~~
ultramancool
Well, it does say they "won't act on reverse-racism or reverse-sexism", so,
depending on how you interpret that I can see what he's trying to say at
least. "Endorses" is strong, but "ignores" would be correct. And one could
imply something about the authors of this CoC from that.

~~~
Lawtonfogle
If you take action to ban all things in some group A, and then make an
explicit exception to not ban some subgroup B, it seems pretty close to
endorsing subgroup B. If they had not called the exception, but instead just
ignored reports about it, that would seem more like ignoring.

For a comparison, say you have a party at your house that gets out of hand.
Too many strangers show up. So you explicitly state that all guests are
required to leave. There is a difference between telling some people they can
stay (or saying I won't call the cops if you stay, but I'll call the cops on
anyone else who stays) and just ignoring the few people who don't leave.

