
There Have Always Existed People Who’ve Simply Wanted to Be Alone - fern12
http://hazlitt.net/feature/there-have-always-existed-people-whove-simply-wanted-be-alone-interview-michael-finkel
======
nabla9
Being alone and hiking and camping in the wilderness without human contact for
longer period can be amazing experience. There can be initial anxiety and
intense desire to go back after romance goes away and your internal shit comes
to light. When there is constant need for do chores to survive but also free
time and no human contact, no books, radio or music, mind gradually settles
into itself.

It's like coming from bright light into a dark room. Gradually your eyes
adjust and you start to see more. Coming back into the civilization is similar
to someone pointing flashlight into your eyes. So much external triggers for
behaviour. Realizing that I'm not actually me with other people and I'm
disappearing into network of others. Me with others is mainly just bunch of
triggers that fire based on conditioning.

If I can feel intense otherworldliness from just week or month alone, I
imagine that if someone spends decades alone, civilization might seem like
miserable alien ant colony. Everybody is responding to commands from others
and carrying stuff they don't care about.

ps. It also can trigger psycosis, panic or some kind of madness (prairie
fever, cabin fever) in some people. Romanticizing it as escape from all your
problems might give people the wrong idea.

~~~
nerdponx
Where do you learn the outdoor and craftmanship skills you'd need to survive
on your own in the woods? Lots of backpacking trips with more experienced
people?

~~~
avenoir
YouTube. There are a lot of survivalists channels with plethora of information
about building shelters, starting fires, finding wild edibles, cooking and
even trapping. I'm not a survivalist, but as someone who lives in Colorado and
plays in the Rockies almost every week knowing how to survive becomes pretty
essential. Watching videos and trying things out on my outings is how i got
started. Another fun thing you can do while you're out alone is bring a wild
edibles identification guide of some sort for your area. Keeps you occupied
and informs you about some pretty neat stuff growing around your camp.

------
white-flame
It baffles me that people think it's so shockingly outlandish that there are
people who don't reactionarily buy into the tribalistic pressures around us to
simply act like everyone else. Humanity is not homogeneous, yet some notions
like these are always projected out to be considered an immutable, inescapable
constant. I can only guess that's that same fear of being different shining
through.

I presume that on sites like this, there's a higher percentage of people who
attempt to be more intentionally decisive about themselves and their lives. We
don't necessarily have to toss out _everything_ like Knight did, but looking
at life and all the weird social rituals and expectations built up, the
dichotomy between those and what seems actually beneficial becomes apparent.
That conflict causes a choice, we would seek to do the "better" thing, and
that draws many people outside the superficial social norms.

I especially bristle at this quote: "Why don’t we want to be alone? Because
the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see." Anybody who tries
to intentionally better themselves _knows_ what's down there. You have to
assess what you are if you're going to change. Sure, you can deny and hide
from all that and simply find comfort in floating along with everybody else in
social inertia, but that seems _to me_ to be a shameful waste of those
conceptual abilities which (apparently) make us uniquely human.

~~~
pm90
There are very real evolutionary pressure on humans to be social and pliant
and buy into the notion that society is a net good, whether it be a tribal one
or a more modern version. Just think about it: the outliers get ostracized and
more often than not don't pass on their genes to the next generation. Until
_very_ recently, we had extremely tribal behavior among human societies as
well. So it makes sense that most people still naturally think its kinda
outlandish to not want to be a part of society or take part in its rituals.

I can't express how glad I feel though, that I am living in an age and country
where not being socially pliant isn't something that would get me killed.
Where I can continue to live my life the way that I want to, rather than buy
into social norms and regulations, many of which seem rather anachronistic.

~~~
vorg
> I am living in an age and country where not being socially pliant isn't
> something that would get me killed

Not killed, but certainly the victim of gossip, even smear campaigns and gang
stalking. You're an ideal patsy to cover up some sociopath's schemes. "You may
not be interested in war, but war is interestwd in you."

------
evervevdww221
I have the impulse to become a hermit myself, fundamentally because I'm tired
of living up to other people's ideologies: going through schools and finding a
job in a cubical. getting married at the right age and then raising the right
amount kids, saving for their college fund and then for retirement.

but why?

I can't help but compare with my surroundings, even I have quit Facebook for
many years. I can't be myself when I'm around others, but become a money maker
for things I don't need. I can't concentrate on what makes me happy.

I recall what made me happy. it was when I finally understood some papers,
some equations, some code. I just want to find a quiet place to do these. I
hope to become an awesome painter and a guitar player too.

I just want to have enough to survive and focus my energy on these things. I
don't care if I have successful kids or fancy cars.

~~~
sliverstorm
Trouble is at the end of the day we need food and shelter. Reading some really
fascinating papers or code is great, and so are painting and playing guitar.
Do all those things. But most everyone will have to work to live, and working
a good job is easier with schooling, and you might meet this girl...

It seems like an artificial treadmill from afar, but IMO the underpinnings are
fairly sound. You just have to find the flavor that suits you. Buying farmland
and working in your fields 12 hours a day, is still an option :)

~~~
icebraining
_Buying farmland and working in your fields 12 hours a day, is still an option
:)_

Yeap. Or get some sheep and go graze them in the mountains. There are still
people doing that in my Western European country. Plenty of free time to
think, if that's what you really want.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
I once watched a shepherd put his hand up a sheep's vagina to help with a
birth during lambing time.

If you think it's an easy or fun job, you might want to spend some time doing
it before committing.

~~~
sgt101
This isn't the difficult or unpleasant bit of sheep farming, delivering a good
lamb is actually wonderful. Sheep in pain, dead lambs, malformed lambs,
drowned lambs - these are harder. Carrying injured sheep soaked to the skin in
a force 9, that's bloody horrible. Doing it once in a while is invigorating
but the grind, year after year all through the winter.

------
grabcocque
The idea of introverts and extraverts being distinct groups of people with
completely different neurological responses to social situations is a largely
false one, created by self-help woo merchants to unhelpfully pathologise the
feeling that EVERYONE has from time to time that they want to be left the fuck
alone.

You know what? It's a normal, neurotypical part of life as a homo sapiens to
want to be by yourself sometimes. And equally, it's a normal, neurotypical
part of life as a homo sapiens to want to socialise sometimes.

We're a weird species like that, the way sometimes we want something and other
times we want the opposite.

~~~
adamnemecek
Sure, but while I do agree that the neurological differences might be non-
existent, I think that if you were to plot the amount of time people spend in
social setting, you'd get something like a normal distribution. You could
designate one end as introverts and one as extroverts.

~~~
alexvy86
Exactly this. And if I might nitpick a bit, I'd say "the amount of time people
WANT to spend in social settings". Which would probably correlate well to the
actual time spent in such settings, but to me the heart of the matter is that
some people just aren't look for it, while others are.

------
Mikeb85
The title IMO is far more interesting and thought provoking than the actual
story. So this guy lived in the woods somewhat near people, and stole to get
by...

I've personally always been fascinated by the topic as I have met several
hermit monks, have a friend who lived as one for half a year, and contemplated
it for myself. The history of religious asceticism and hermits is quite
interesting, and many of history's most famous philosophers/religious
leaders/prophets were either hermits, or had periods of reclusion. And nearly
every single religion has these hermit figures.

Anyhow, the downside is that being alone is tough. Physically and mentally.
Humans are social creatures. However I have personally benefited from periods
of isolation and reflection, even if I'd much rather be around others.

~~~
syshum
I think the idea that "Humans are social creatures" is spread by the part of
humanity that are social creatures and us introverts are not normally around
to challenge that assertion.

While undoubtedly there are many many humans that desire to socialize and be
around other humans, there are many of us that find socialization less
enjoyable.

So while I personally have benefited from periods of social interaction, I'd
much rather be in isolation and self reflection.

~~~
smallnamespace
Being social and being sociable often conflated.

Every time you buy something from Amazon, drink tap water, or live in a
dwelling that you didn't build yourself, you are being a social creature. Few
animals are capable of interacting in these highly complicated and
choreographed ways.

~~~
ZenoArrow
> "Every time you buy something from Amazon, drink tap water, or live in a
> dwelling that you didn't build yourself, you are being a social creature."

I'd say that's stretching the definition of social beyond the breaking point.
Technically those interactions involve other humans, but none that you engage
with directly. It's direct human interaction that is the key to whether
something is 'social' or not IMO.

~~~
exergy
Quite the opposite. Yuval Harari explains really well in Sapiens that one of
the keys to human success has been the ability to "do things together" at
larger scales than any other species. For example, maritime trade going back
millenia. That is true social "trust" in each other. The whole concept of
money being a social construct is a very interesting thing to consider.

~~~
ZenoArrow
> "Quite the opposite."

Consider the context. The subject under discussion is those who want to be
alone. It's quite possible to be alone whilst still enjoying the fruits of
human collaboration.

~~~
exergy
I believe that was the point that your parent was trying to make; clarify that
"Humans are social creatures" doesn't mean that all of us love interacting
with people, but that the quote implies that we can come together to do things
in a way that others cannot.

------
factsaresacred
> Years ago, I went to India for a ten-day, silent retreat. I wanted to make
> myself go where I was afraid to go—deep down, inside my own head. I found it
> terrifying. Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down
> there is stuff you don’t want to see.

We live in a world in which who we are is defined by what we _do_. We are a
role - parent, engineer, carer. Strip that away and all that remains is a
_who_. That's the reward of solitude: a situation wherein you have nobody to
bounce your 'self' off, nobody to define yourself in relation to, allowing
_you_ to surface.

Turns out that who you are is simply a sequence of reactions to experience -
the external kind as well as that which bubbles up internally. Rather than
terrifying, this should be seen as profoundly liberating.

~~~
pm90
It is terrifying before but liberating after. So I was extremely afraid of sky
diving but once I did it, that felt liberating.

Its easy to talk about re-framing our mindset, especially for things that
frighten or embarrass us. Much harder to carry out. But I do agree its
important to take action regardless... that seems to be the only thing that
helps with it.

------
tray5
My personal theory for explaining hermits throughout history is simple, these
people had/have aspergers. I have aspergers myself, and I can very easily see
someone who has aspergers who for whatever reason no longer wants to socialize
anymore getting up and doing their own thing out in isolation. I don't truly
believe that any neurotypical person, and for that matter many aspies could do
it, but if you're brain is wired in a way that socialization doesn't provide
that reward that it does for most other people, either because you don't
understand social interaction and have no desire to learn the rules so you can
play the game, or simply because you have discovered the rules and simply have
no interest exhausting the effort, going out into isolation and spending the
rest of your days pursuing other things that give you fulfillment.

~~~
roceasta
>socialization doesn't provide that reward that it does for most other people

Exactly. If one doesn't get the reward then it's too easy to commit errors and
not worth the effort to correct them.

However I do think 'spergs' have a better knowledge of the rules than normies.
Just as a native speaker doesn't need to know grammar in order to speak
correctly, so normies don't need to know the rules of social interaction.

~~~
tray5
>However I do think 'spergs' have a better knowledge of the rules than
normies.

You're absolutely right. It's intuition for neurotypical people, it's just
something they get. For aspies socialization is about learning all the hidden
rules that come naturally to others. But I do admit that knowing the rules and
applying them in real time is a very, very difficult thing to do. It gets
exhausting quick, and if this was one of the reasons hermits decide to become
hermits, I can empathise massively.

~~~
digi_owl
Thing about said rules are that they are not fixed, they are fluid based on
the ongoing exchange within the peer group.

Thus all rules come with a ton of exceptions.

------
dahart
Snap Judgement did a nice podcast version of this story.
[http://snapjudgment.org/north-pond-hermit](http://snapjudgment.org/north-
pond-hermit)

The letters Knight & Finkel exchanged add an interesting angle.

Can't say I'm a fan of the author's choice for title of this post. It's Chris
Knight's story, and nothing in this post presents any evidence for anyone else
at any other time, aside from this single sentence "Think of Jesus, Mohammed,
and Buddha: they all spent very long periods of time alone before introducing
their religions." I totally believe there have always been people who want to
be alone sometimes. Pretty much everyone wants to be alone sometimes. But ugh,
this sentence & title seem to strain credulity and are so completely
unnecessary and tangential to this story.

~~~
fern12
Fair enough. I felt a fleeting moment of self-vindication when I saw it pop up
in my RSS feed - hence, the reason why I kept it.

~~~
dahart
Oh, to be clear, I'm talking about Coombe's title not yours. It's best if you
keep the article's title in tact, and this is a really interesting story, you
should feel good about it popping to the top.

~~~
fern12
Duly noted. Thank you for the feedback:)

------
booleandilemma
_He portrays a man who, without a shred of formal outdoor training, survived
through ingenuity and remarkable self-discipline_

The man burglarized people's houses for supplies.

~~~
65827
Yes, it's easy to dismiss him for many reason, but more interesting to me is
how he survived the brutal Maine winters: by getting up in the middle of the
night and pacing back and forth to warm up. Every night. For 27 winters. I
don't know how you measure willpower but that's gotta be one of the greats
right there.

------
dr_bloodmoney
I read about this man when the story first broke and found it extremely
fascinating. I can relate to wanting to be alone and living an isolated
existence. I love being in nature, away from the world and have often thought
about pursuing such an existence permanently. But I just cannot comprehend his
methods. Move to Alaska. Learn to hunt. Carve out a place for yourself
somewhere. What he did tells me he was just insane - live near people and
steal. To put it bluntly, this is fucking nuts.

~~~
mAdamTus
His methods aren't insane. They're rational for survival in human
society/civilization without participating in it.

Think of a rat or other mammal pest. They effectively survive off of
civilization in the same way.

And since he got away with it for the entire time...successfully...it seemed
effective, too.

> _alaska_

Living fully alone isolated from civilization in terrain as hostile as wild
alaska isn't realistic. See Christopher Mccandless. It's simpler to just
scrounge off of civilization.

~~~
influx
Your sample size is one. Let me double it for you, I highly recommend Dick
Proenneke's story, Alone in the Wilderness.

[https://youtu.be/iYJKd0rkKss](https://youtu.be/iYJKd0rkKss)

~~~
trentmb
Reading [0], Dick was significantly more prepared, and had a friend that
regularly fly in supplies.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke#Site](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke#Site)

~~~
influx
Nod, I've been more prepared going car camping for a weekend in the summer in
a campground within walking distance of a resort than Chris Mccandless was
going into Alaska for the winter.

He should not be the benchmark for this thing.

~~~
jacquesm
He's the benchmark for undeclared suicides.

------
Chiba-City
FWIW, hundreds of thousands of Christian and Buddhist monks alive today all
over our world live near to one another in cells or caves. A farming monastery
in Arizona started 20 years ago is just beautiful and thriving. WV now has a
Buddhist monastery. Buddhist monks are considered "ordained" but not most
Christian monks. Lives of quiet or social Renunciation are everywhere and
growing in number. Some even have fast WiFi. Go look on YouTube. I have been
considering and schematically budgeting an urban ecumenical working monastery
in Washington DC that would support itself with OSS testing, documentation and
language localization.

~~~
adenozin
WV?

~~~
Chiba-City
The Bhavana Society Theravadins (roughly "Tradition Of Elders") in High View,
West Virginia take ordinations. Theravadins keep the earliest known Pali Sutta
scriptures. It is its own idiom but surprisingly similar to Stoic
philosophical traditions with a Orthodox Ladder of Divine Ascent group study
and meditation regimen. Great life option for long lived calmer wiser folks
who do not want to raise families and enjoy reading nonfiction.

------
cJ0th
> Years ago, I went to India for a ten-day, silent retreat. I wanted to make
> myself go where I was afraid to go—deep down, inside my own head. I found it
> terrifying. Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down
> there is stuff you don’t want to see.

I find it interesting that silent retreats work for so many people. While I do
get some benefits from meditation it doesn't really lead me to terrifying
situations. From time to time it feels like I am having some epiphanies wrt to
my shortcomings but meditation seems too gentle to call those moments a
confrontation. There is always this nice, cool distance between me and my
thoughts. Throwing me into an impro theater group might be more beneficial
(and terrifying). The required spontaneity would force the "actual me" to live
through uncomfortable situations and perhaps grow.

------
KhanMahGretsch
This looks like a good thread to recommend one of my favourite YouTube
channels, "Primitive Technology", which features all manner of tools and
dwellings built caveman-style.

It's creator is a hacker in the truest sense; his forge-blower contraption,
for instance, is simply ingenious.

Don't forget to turn on captions, the subtitles describe what he's doing :)

[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA)

~~~
gcb0
it's actually the worst thread :)

The article is not about some outdoorsman that built furnaces and such. he
didn't even lit a fire or dug a latrine!

this is the story of a man that just didn't want to be seen. he camped 3min
walk from cabins, and stole books and food everywhere he could.

~~~
KhanMahGretsch
However tenuous the connection, my post is related to both tech and the OP.

However irrelevant it may be, somehow I'm certain it will not be the most
nuisance caused in this thread today :)

------
FrozenVoid
I don't want to live in a wilderness, but i would want to greatly reduce
mandatory social interactions i have to do daily. Its emotionally draining and
stressful. Almost everything we do can be automated, but people still insist
on face-to-face interaction(or at minimum voice/video chat) and there is this
herding behavior that forces people to adjust their beliefs and thoughts to
conform to current in-group paradigms(the comparison with ant colonies ITT is
on point). All the 24/7 media exposure and rat race of consumerism eventually
take their toll on mental health(the polar opposite of "hermit slowly losing
their minds") with people becoming psychotic and dependent on pills to
function.

~~~
KhanMahGretsch
It appears to me that, like many others, there is an issue with the quality of
your interactions, and you are unable to control when/where/how they happen.

I sometimes hear the phrase "People are social animals" to express the
sentiment that living in densely-populated environments has a good/neutral
influence on the human psyche.

The disclaimer should be that socialising with people we know well and trust
is what's "natural" and yields benefits; being constantly surrounded by
strangers _has_ to be stressful for us.

Wether consciously or intuitively (See the excellent book "The Gift of Fear"
for more), we are constantly scanning our surroundings for potential threats.

That, and a lack of accountability for how one treats their "neighbours",
presents problems that can place a tremendous load on your mental health.

------
DannyDaemonic
There's an evolutionary advantage to having people who are isolated from the
rest of the community. And not just in terms of sickness transmission. Things
such as war, famine, and natural disasters can wipe out whole population
groups.

~~~
jonnathanson
I'm a little skeptical. Isolated individuals cannot successfully reproduce a
population. Furthermore, those who intentionally isolate themselves seem less
likely to achieve reproductive success in the event that, say, they stumbled
across a suitable mate, or a post-disaster survivor encampment.

~~~
DannyDaemonic
Perhaps I read the article wrong, but I was under the impression that he came
back to society after 27 years. This would mean if there had been a disaster
while he was gone, his genes would make up a much higher percentage of the
population than if he had stayed.

------
Zuider
"Man is by nature a social animal; an individual who is unsocial naturally and
not accidentally is either beneath our notice or more than human. Society is
something that precedes the individual. Anyone who either cannot lead the
common life or is so self-sufficient as not to need to, and therefore does not
partake of society, is either a beast or a god"

From Aristotle, The Politics.

------
mythrwy
Maybe "introvert" or "extrovert" depends largely on the potential company.

All people (and cultural groups for that matter) are not equally pleasant to
be around.

------
gozur88
But Knight was never really alone. Sure, he didn't live with or talk to
people. But he couldn't survive without stealing from the people around him.

------
mkhalil
"Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff
you don’t want to see."

This really resonates with me. The "Fear of missing out" is something I try to
avoid like the plague, but sometimes I wonder why do I even care?

edit: replaced the acronym FOMA

~~~
jack_pp
FOMA?

~~~
luhn
Fear of Missing Out

~~~
WalterSear
_" Bokononism is based on the concept of foma, which are defined as harmless
untruths. A foundation of Bokononism is that the religion, including its
texts, is formed entirely of lies; however, one who believes and adheres to
these lies will have peace of mind, and perhaps live a good life. The primary
tenet of Bokononism is to "Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and
healthy and happy."_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokononism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokononism)

~~~
rhizome
Reminds me of pronoia.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoia_(psychology)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoia_\(psychology\))

~~~
WalterSear
I think Vonnegut is parodying the fundamental tenet of most religion.

------
mark_l_watson
Great story. I wonder how spiritual/ religious Chris is. I understand being
alone in nature and the desire for solitude but Chris's life style probably
has a strong spiritual component. I am going to have to read the book.

------
taw55
Here is another, longer form article about Chris Knight by the same author.

[http://www.gq.com/story/the-last-true-hermit](http://www.gq.com/story/the-
last-true-hermit)

~~~
astrostl
Simply astounding read. Just added the book to my wishlist, but I wonder how
much it'll do above and beyond.

------
aaron695
There have always existed people who have suffered from severe depression.
There have always existed people who are sucidial.

I find the title a bit dangerous, but an interesting topic.

------
lngnmn
Since the time Vedic seers, I suppose...

BTW, prolonged solitude has been considered by most major Eastern schools
(both Hindu and Buddhist) as necessarily precursor for spiritual
transformations.

------
Indolat
“A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love
solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is
really free.”

― Arthur Schopenhauer

------
fundabulousrIII
Always bring a cat. Otherwise why not?

------
JumpCrisscross
How does one find, or plan, such retreats?

------
asherkosaraju
And there is nothing wrong with it. Most people think being alone is
equivalent to being antisocial. A common misconception that needs to be
addressed. The person doesn't need therapy, they just want to be left alone.

------
stcredzero
True story: in the early 90's, I walked up to and witnessed this: There was a
young woman running a "Museum of Elvis" in a storefront in Portland. She
wasn't making it financially, so unable to pay off her student loans, she took
to sitting in the storefront in a chair, with a sign and a donation box
saying, "I just want to be left a loan."

