
Modafinil and Startups - anthony_franco
http://swombat.com/2012/2/27/modafinil-and-startups
======
tene
It's worth noting that not everyone responds to modafinil. If you've had
genetic sequencing done (I had mine done by 23andme), you can predict your
response by checking your Rs4680 status.
<http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs4680>

    
    
      rs4680(G;G) carriers deprived of sleep respond quite well to 2x 100mg
      modafinil in terms of improved vigor and well-being, and maintained
      baseline performance with respect to executive functioning, whereas
      rs4680(A;A) individuals barely responded to the drug at all.
    

I'm A;A, and normally have almost no response to modafinil. I discovered,
however, that I have significant modafinil response while on an MAOI
(transdermal selegiline). I've stopped taking it recently, since I've finally
tracked down the primary causes of my excessive sleepiness, (very deficient in
vitamin D and cortisol). Modafinil has been a massive help both with fatigue
and depression, and let me stay functional and productive through a difficult
time in my life while I tracked down the actual problems.

~~~
jcampbell1
Contrary to what some doctors tell you, it is really hard to fix a Vitamin D
deficiency with dietary supplements. Go to a tanning salon and get 250,000IUs
in 10 minutes. Of course this is going to be a bit weird if you are naturally
dark skinned, but far more effective than taking pills.

~~~
jerf
Citation? I ask because I'm interested in making sure I'm healthy, not to just
be a jerk on the internet, and if that's true I'm doing something wrong.

~~~
jcampbell1
No citations exist. My comment was directed at the grandparent whose original
symptoms warranted taking dangerous MAOIs. In that case, I would consider an
off literature treatment to fix the vitamin D deficiency as fast as possible.
Tanning beds are carcinogenic and not recommended for general health.

~~~
tene
I started taking MAOIs while trying to deal with depression. SSRIs had pretty
severe cognitive side-effects for me, and low doses of transdermal MAOIs have
a better risk profile than traditional oral MAOIs. You're right about
dangerous, though. I first started modafinil while on the MAOI, and didn't
find out that it didn't work for me off of it until I stopped using the MAOI
due to apparent serotonin toxicity, which you don't want to screw around with.

------
peter_l_downs

        What I found with more experimentation of days both with
        and without Modafinil was that actually, I was just as
        productive if I was well rested, healthy, well fed with
        healthy foods and working on something I cared about.
    

This, I think, is the most interesting part of the entire piece. He talks at
length about the benefits of Modafinil:

    
    
        On the good side, those tasks which I did line up got
        done, and with great energy, velocity, etc. A good day
        on Modafinil could easily concentrate several days'
        worth of work into one, by getting rid of all the empty
        distracted bits of the day."
    

(which sound fantastic) but then mentions that you can get the same benefits
just by being healthy. Makes me think that it's kind of incredible what our
body can do on its own.

~~~
swombat
That is my own main takeaway... Which is why I don't take Modafinil anymore.

~~~
zackzackzack
What about combining good health with using Modafinil? The naive idea is if
they are good by themselves, they could be better together.

~~~
swombat
When I'm well rested, well fed, healthy, etc, then the Modafinil just has the
basic effect of increasing focus and energy while decreasing breadth of
thinking, with the comedown 8 or so hours later that leaves me sucked dry.
It's not that bad, but it's not so great as to be worth the risk on a regular
basis, imho.

------
dtf
I threw my last pack away last year, due to the emergence of a nasty side
effect. I'd used it to power through a few insane projects, and had what I
would call a decent "honeymoon period": get up at 4am, brain so groggy it was
hard to tie my shoelaces, pop 100mg and within 30 minutes I'd be hyper-awake,
clear headed and have laser sharp focus. The euphoria he mentions was nothing
mild for me either, it really wasn't far off something like cocaine or ecstacy
(minus accompanying loss of faculty).

Then gradually another feeling started accompanying it, which I can only
describe as a "darkening" of my perception of the world, and strong sense of
impending doom which became intrusive and hard to ignore (to the detriment of
whatever task was at hand). It rendered me mildly depressed and highly anxious
at the same time (although only for about 12-14 hours), and it did so
consistently. I've never heard anyone else mention such an effect, but if
anyone starts feeling a bit like that (and for me it was frankly a powerful
and rather scary side-effect), consider whether the drug is to blame.

~~~
commanda
This is exactly what I felt when I was taking Adderall when I was about 25. I
chose to stop taking it after a few months because I just couldn't handle the
sense of impending doom, and at times fear, which would strike every day
around 7pm.

------
jakeonthemove
I didn't get around to trying Modafinil, but I've discovered that pure
caffeine and guarana extract work better than coffee for me. I was a heavy
coffee drinker all my life, but several years ago, it just stopped working as
well. There's something in coffee besides caffeine that makes me feel jittery
and nervous _without_ feeling more alert after a couple of days of drinking it
regularly. Basically, it helps with physically intensive tasks, but doesn't
help when I have to sit down and do any kind of mental work anymore.

Using 100 mg of caffeine 3x a day, on the other hand, gives me the same effect
as coffee once did - I can jump around filled with energy and work at my
computer with more energy for longer periods of time. 400 mg of guarana
extract (~80 mg caffeine) makes me more alert without the physical tension or
jitters - if anyone has "coffee fatigue", as I call it, try caffeine pills or
guarana extract (but not in high dosages!).

I've also found L-carnitine to augment caffeine in physical tasks, and taking
400mg of guarana extract with ~200mg of rhodiola rosea and 50mg of L-theanine
lets me work and then sleep pretty well, like I never took caffeine in the
first place. YMMV, but it's definitely fascinating to see how we can alter our
bodies with psychoactives (obviously, you take a risk, so you have to
understand that and doing proper research before using anything).

I still want to try Modafinil, but just can't get my hands on it right now...

------
w1ntermute
Is it just me, or does using mind-altering substances to get through one's
daily schedule seem like it crosses the line?

I'm always a little baffled when people sacrifice their health for work - it's
a very bad decision in the long term. You can always find another job, but
once you damage your health, you may never get it back.

~~~
Jach
Do you drink coffee or caffeinated soda? Also Modafinil by itself doesn't seem
to cause any health problems, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there.
The impure Adrafinil can cause liver problems though. I'd agree that a drug
that gave work benefits but resulted in brain damage 2 years later isn't worth
it, but let's be specific when talking about what health risks are around for
particular chemicals, diets, and chairs/no chairs.

My own experience with Modafinil is that it lets me focus intently on one or a
handful of things for longer periods of time, but doesn't give me much if any
boost in willpower to pick, so I rely on putting myself in the right
environment where there's only a few options to pick from.

~~~
w1ntermute
> Do you drink coffee or caffeinated soda?

In fact, I don't, and precisely for this reason. Caffeine addictions seem to
be just as bad to me.

Instead, I sleep more (enough so I don't have to use an alarm) and strive to
cut unnecessary things from my life to save time. For example, I know it's a
little cliche, but people survived without TV until 50 or 60 years ago. I got
rid of my TV, and it saved me a lot of time.

~~~
nkohari
Do you eat sugary foods? Fatty foods? Ingesting sugar and fat causes your
brain to release dopamine. Without this mind-altering biochemistry, people
wouldn't be nearly as compelled to eat a piece of a chocolate cake or a piece
of bacon.

(Note: dopamine reabsorption is also slowed by caffeine, which is why it
improves your mood.)

My point is not to be pedantic, it's to say that no matter what you're
ingesting, you're altering your mood. While I'd obviously agree that becoming
addicted to mood-altering substances isn't a good thing, I think that (like
sugar and fat) they can be used responsibly.

------
Erwin
I've found it occasionally helpful, but it will in no way fix procrastination
-- in fact you can procrastinate (by e.g. reading through top 100 random
stories on reddit) more efficiently and with fewer regrets. If you can get
into the "flow" (in the psychological sense) you're able to stay there for
longer and are less likely to get interrupted, but you're better off starting
the day with a clear todo list and by priming things by producing, not consume
(as per the recent articles).

If mixing with coffee, consume both well before you intend to sleep; I've
found myself a few times in an unpleasant alert but wanting to sleep state.

~~~
alinajaf
> I've found it occasionally helpful, but it will in no way fix
> procrastination -- in fact you can procrastinate (by e.g. reading through
> top 100 random stories on reddit)

In my (ahem) friends experiments with modafinil he reported the same thing,
i.e. that he procrastinated with a vengeance. Last time this happened he
managed to get through O'Reilly's _Mastering Algorithms in C_ in a single
sitting, though it was completely unrelated to the work he was supposed to do
that day.

~~~
swombat
I got as far as having some really intensely focused world of warcraft
sessions on modafinil... What a waste...

~~~
CamperBob
Not only that, but modafinil is also great when you absolutely, positively,
have to win a flame war on the Internet.

------
throwaway12315
I have taken 100-400mg of Modafinil daily for about 10 years.

I happen to have my 23andme results (thanks for the tip, tene!) and it looks
like I'm rs4680(A;A). Despite what the paper in CPT says, it does have a
significant effect on my alertness.

The comments about procrastination and focus all sound familiar to me. So do
the comments about addiction: sometimes I'll forget to take it and if I don't
have any because I forget to pack it while travelling I don't feel an urge to
do anything about it. I only have a few things to add to what's been said
already:

1) Modafinil is not a substitute for sleep for me. I've gone without sleep for
days while using it, and I do suffer from the effects of sleep deprivation. I
just don't notice that I'm suffering from them. The best way to describe it is
that I am alert and thinking, but I am missing half my IQ points and don't
realize it unless I'm particularly mindful about how I am feeling. I'm great
at driving, working out, the boring parts of reverse engineering firmware, and
other mindless repetitive physical tasks, though. A few years ago I decided to
spend a lot of time at the gym and was performing at superhuman levels: it's
just not normal for a 5'8" guy to feel happy about running 6 minute miles at 4
AM on no sleep. When I did that on no sleep I kept losing my keys and phone,
though...

2) Modafinil significantly increases my ability to get out of bed in the
morning. I've never taken a sick day since I started using it. If I don't get
enough sleep I still zone out a little during the day, but it makes it so much
more pleasant to get out of bed and go through my morning routine if I'm
missing sleep. I'm certainly in better shape because I have the energy to go
work out, as I mentioned.

3) I'm quickly approaching the point where I'll have been on Modafinil for
more than 50% of my life, and as far as I can tell there have been no long-
term side effects. My partner is a MD and although at first she couldn't
believe that it wasn't permanently screwing something up, she's come to accept
that Modafinil seems to be pretty safe in my case.

4) Despite what others have said about Modafinil affecting their creative
thinking, I have no problems assimilating entirely new concepts or doing other
abstract thinking while using the drug.

~~~
gwern
> Despite what the paper in CPT says, it does have a significant effect on my
> alertness.

You're not the first 23andMe user I've heard say that; as I caution people in
my section on the topic ( <http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil#effects> ) SNP
studies are pretty gosh-darn unreliable, and even if the SNP effect turns out
to be genuine (as they often do not), the effect may not be worth caring
about.

------
dbaupp
Gwern has a summary article[1] on Modafinil which (among other things) goes
through the literature on the effects and side-effects.

[1]: <http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil>

------
tezza
I've commented on Modafinil before (
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=647333> ). Please see caveats there.

I would say that Modafinil does not make a boring task interesting. It does
not supply any drive to work.

I characterise the effects as blowing away that fog you sometimes feel is
within your head.

Even better, I have found that it is quite possible to sleep on Modafinil. It
will be light sleep because if you're indulging then you probably have a lot
on your mind anyway and this will dictate how well you sleep.

You'll find that you wake up with some residual effect ( clarity ). This is a
good thing, unlike a hangover/comedown.

------
gwern
Hm, didn't expect to see this on Hacker News. Better copy over my comment from
Reddit
[http://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/q878x/modafinil_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/q878x/modafinil_and_startups/c3vkayx)
:

> Sure, you won't find studies of people who fried their neurons by using
> Modafinil for 10 years in a row, but that's because Modafinil isn't that old
> yet.

Actually, it is. Even ignoring all the animal and French experiments etc,
Cephalon got FDA approval and started selling it in the US in... 1997? 1998?
That's close to 14 years now.

This is why blogs with no comments annoy me - how is the author supposed to
find out that he made an obvious mistake? Or for that matter his claim
modafinil is more amphetamine-like that proponents claim - well, I'm a
proponent but at least when I claim it has little in common, I have [actual
citations](<http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil#fn11>).

EDIT: I checked; it was approved in December 1998, so 1 December 1998 - today
is 13 years, 2 months, and 27 days.

~~~
tricolon
> This is why blogs with no comments annoy me - how is the author supposed to
> find out that he made an obvious mistake?

Email? His site-wide byline is a mailto.

~~~
gwern
Yes, so I can email him and hope he will update or edit or admit he's wrong,
and also accept that by the time he does so most readers will be gone - rather
than post a public comment he would specifically have to censor, and my
correction be visible in time for most readers to see if they care to.

I hope you can see why I would regard one alternative as way better than the
other.

~~~
gwern
Proving my point: a day later, with the comment on both Hacker News & Reddit,
his incorrect claim remains. In fact, as far as I can tell, he has not edited
it _at all_.

Why, again, would I prefer to email him?

------
shokwave
Interesting. I take modafinil 2-ish times a week, sometimes to skip a night's
sleep to work on my own projects, sometimes to get a really productive day at
my day-job with a startup.

My subjective experience with driving on Modafinil is very different: I become
significantly more aware of everything on the road. It turns me into a laser,
sure, but a laser that's constantly scanning back and forth. Too many
confounding factors to say why that is.

I haven't noticed any diminishing of 'broad thinking'. Not sure I could claim
any increase, though.

His claim that it's better to get productive days through other means seems to
be a false dichotomy: Modafinil isn't dangerous like he's convinced it is, and
while you can get productive through better health and rest, you can get even
more productive by eating healthy, exercising, resting properly, _and_ taking
Modafinil. It's not clear why he thinks that Modafinil will force you to be
unhealthy, thus making it a choice between "healthy" and "moda" (Honestly, the
days when I take Modafinil, I find I have the focus to exercise harder and
longer, and the willpower to eat much healthier).

His points about 'shortcut to a really productive day', 'having a clear _big_
task to focus on', and 'drink a lot of water' are all spot-on, though.

I have to disagree with his recommendations: I think Modafinil's value
proposition is positive for almost everyone, and proportionally more valuable
as the value of your time or focus increases. HN readers in particular tend to
have valuable time and extremely valuable focus; Modafinil is a huge gain,
something like a large fraction of just the positives of amphetamines, with
the negatives of caffeine instead.

The illustrious __gwern __has an article covering the medical research,
benefits, risks, a novel cost/benefit analysis, and supplier information
here:<http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil>

(Yes, it's been linked a few times already in this discussion. Go read it
already.)

------
nl
The thing I find most interesting about Modafinil is how consistent the
stories are about how people feel (and work) when they take it.

Everyone talks of extreme focus, but perhaps a loss of judgement about what
tasks are actually important.

I don't have any particular conclusions about that - I just find it really
interesting.

~~~
njs12345
This is an excellent tl;dr for what it does. I had some truly excellent
Minecraft sessions, for instance..

------
stef25
I've taken it a few times when I really had to push hard to meet a deadline
(coding). One time while working my sister texted me to say she just boarded
her flight to Canada (from Europe). What seemed like a short while after she
texted me saying she'd arrived. During her entire flight (6+ hrs) my
concentration never flinched. I find it very effective indeed.

------
DEinspanjer
I have taken 200mg of Modafinil daily for more than 5 years.

Before it, I could go to sleep just about anywhere and just about any time. I
could easily sleep for 12 to 14 hours a day if I let myself. When I had a work
commute of about an hour and a half, I would have to pull over, sometimes four
or five times, during the afternoon drive home to take cat naps because I
couldn't keep my eyes open. It didn't matter how much or how little coffee I
drank, it didn't matter how much I slept the day before, and it didn't matter
whether I was eating my typical diet which was fairly healthy, or if I had
unusual amounts of junk food that week.

Caffeine doesn't work "normally" for me. I like the taste of coffee, I usually
have one cup a day that I sip throughout the morning. However, I don't have a
Folgers moment. I am not groggy until I get my first cup. If I drink a soda or
coffee or even have a shot of espresso in the afternoon, I don't get a sudden
boost of energy. I don't even get the boost of energy from energy drinks. When
I drink a lot caffeine or other energy drinks in a short period of time, I
find that they will give me a mild case of the jitters, but even then, they
don't counteract my actual drowsiness. Hence, I've never gone higher than my
typical cup of coffee in the morning and frequently a soda in the afternoon.
More than that has almost all down-sides and no up-sides for me.

I took a sleep study, and I was not diagnosed with narcolepsy because that
diagnosis is very specific. You must immediately fall into REM sleep. I was
diagnosed with a "we have no idea what you have" condition of excessive
daytime drowsiness and received a prescription for Provigil. Originally, it
was a 100mg dose, but when that was not effective, it went up to 200mg.

It is a bit of a wonder drug for me, but certainly not in the terms that it
was described in this article. It doesn't make me hyper focused or give me
unusually sharp focus, it just removes the incapacitating drowsiness I
suffered in the afternoon. I've actually found that music is more distracting
to me during work hours since I started taking it. While I still enjoy
listening to various types of music for recreation, I don't play music while
working anymore.

I would definitely say it is not addicting in the manner that coffee is. On
vacations and at times I didn't have my prescription with me, I've gone weeks
without taking it. There are no withdrawal symptoms, other than the fact that
I would be excessively drowsy again, especially in the afternoon. If I stop
drinking caffeine, I will suffer migraines for about two weeks.

I will agree with the part about broad focus vs narrow focus. I can think
better about large system design late in the evening. When I am working on an
architecture problem during the afternoon, I find myself frequently rat-
holing. I'll focus on one specific part and just keep going back to it over
and over rather than spending enough time at the higher level.

~~~
tene
Your symptoms sound very similar to mine. I eventually had a large vitamin,
neurotransmitter, hormone, and adrenal panel done, including saliva and urine
samples throughout the day, and blood of course. I was severely deficient in
vitamin D, very low cortisol, and notably low B12. Since starting to address
these issues, my life has improved significantly. If you haven't had similar
tests done, I encourage you to do so.

~~~
DEinspanjer
I've had normal blood work and an adrenal panel. Don't know about the more
advanced stuff you are talking about. I'll bring it up with my doctor, and I
thank you for the advice.

------
corin_
> _I used a (legal) drug called Modafinil_

As far as I'm aware, in both the UK and the US, it's legal only as a
prescription drug, i.e. if you buy it online without a prescription it is no
longer legal.

------
dsrguru
Your description of the subjective effects of modafinil sound almost identical
to those of Adderall (d-amphetamine). Adderall has a very well established
short-term safety profile in therapeutic doses, but long-term use, especially
at moderate to high doses, can lead to severe dependency and a host of health
problems, in a very similar manner to cocaine. If what you say is true that
Modafinil doesn't have the high addictive potential of amphetamines and
cocaine, that sounds very appealing, but taking any drug even once if it's too
new to know if there are long-term side effects from short-term use really
scares me. I'm glad you conclude that sleep, nutrition, and exercise are
preferable.

P.S. Wikipedia says Modafinil is Schedule IV in the U.S., which means that,
like cocaine and morphine (Schedule II), Modafinil is illegal unless you have
a prescription.

~~~
driverdan
It's not that similar to Adderall or other amphetamines. The mechanism of
action is different. There is some overlap in effect but it's quite different.
Amphetamines will provide intense focus and are generally short lived.
Modafinil will provide improved focus and alertness and is long lived. The
focus is nowhere near as intense.

Adderall and cocaine are even less similar. Cocaine is purely a psychological
addiction. Amphetamines have both psychological and physical addiction.
Modafinil has little to no addiction. Over time your body will get more
efficient at breaking down modafinil down so you may need to increase dose but
that's it. There are studies done over years but there aren't any extremely
long term ones yet.

While still illegal schedule IV is nothing like schedule II. LE generally
doesn't care that much about IV. I've read about schedule IV drugs being
opened by customs and allowed through. Think of IV as less than being caught
with a joint.

------
JamesBell
Two points I didn't see about modafinil that I've found: 1) There's a long lag
from the I take it until the time it kicks in. I read somewhere that it has to
be processed by the liver once and the results of that are what actually has
an effect. The upshot is, if I take it after about 11am, I will find myself
awake after 1am. So for me it's early or not at all.

2) As a hangover/sleepless night cure. Modafinil is a great "fixer" for a slow
d-r-a-g of a day. By noon I usually have forgotten I started the day hungover.

I generally take 50mg for the mildest effect, or sometimes 100mg if the need
is greater.

------
driverdan
My personal experiences with modafinil's effects are similar to the OP's. It
increases my focus more than caffeine but not like Adderall. It completely
clears away brain fog and eliminates sleepiness. I find it lasts 6-8 hours for
me, depending if I'm sleep deprived or not.

I found that if it's evening, I'm tired, and I take it that it may take up to
2 hours before my alertness improves. Normally it's about 1 hour.

Other than terrible smelling urine I don't notice any side effects.

Modafinil also seems to be synergistic with caffeine. I can take half the
caffeine with the same or better effects.

------
buss
I tried provigil for two weeks and it made me feel like a zombie. I was less
sleepy but I felt kind of 'hazy', like there was something between myself and
my thoughts slowing down the interaction. It _did_ make me slightly more
productive, and able to completely focus on boring tasks.

One interesting side effect is that it made me a bit more social and during
those two weeks I had dozens of extremely boring (in hindsight) conversations
with random co-workers. It seems to lower my threshold for boredom more than
anything.

------
dfc
Another good take on modafinil:

<http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil>

------
kcima

      Modafinil is also compared to amphetamines (which are
      often used either for recreation or to treat ADHD), since
      its effect is somewhat similar. Generally, the comparison
      states that amphetamines are bad for you and that 
      Modafinil is not as bad because it "works differently",
      but there is probably more overlap than the proponents of
      Modafinil would like you to think.
    

There is one massively huge difference between amphetamines and Modafinil.

Modafinil is not addictive.

I have a prescription for Modafinil (required in the US) and have been taking
it for over 5 years. Getting the prescription was fairly simple and required
going to a sleep doctor and getting a "sleep study".

I would never have thought of myself as narcoleptic, although I remember
frequently being unable to stay awake in high school math class. I think some
would characterize me as "a sleepy guy" and I do have to be careful while
driving late at night.

I don't take it on weekends, or vacations. Even for up to 3 weeks or a month,
I'll go without Modafinil.

Taking Modafinil keeps me alert and excited about my code and my business.

Not taking Modafinil helps me relax and not think about the stress of running
a business. I enjoy things like TV and Movies a whole lot more. Playing with
my kids is also more fun when not on Modafinil.

But when I need to get back to work, within an hour of taking Modafinil, I am
excited about the code in front of me and can work productively for 12 or more
hours per day. When evening comes and you know you need rest, there is no
temptation to take more Modafinil and work through the night - although that
would be possible.

On more than one occasion, I have forgotten to take Modafinil before work in
the morning. These days were much less productive, filled with self-promoted
distractions and much less excitement about my work. But more importantly,
there is no urge or need to take Modafinil; so much so, that I am able to
forget about it completely.

These non-addictive characteristics are completely unlike amphetamines (which
I have also unfortunately tried in my more distant history).

Addiction is not something that is just in the mind. Everybody who takes
amphetamines or smokes cigarettes on a daily basis, will eventually become
addicted. Some are able to overcome that addiction, others are not, but the
physical addiction is a certainty.

No one who takes amphetamines on a daily basis will ever forget not to take
them, nor will they enjoy a 2 week vacation without them. Same goes for the
smoker without cigarettes.

Modifinil is quite easily forgotten for long periods of time. I think it is
important to note this difference.

~~~
hythloday
_Addiction is not just in the mind_

Addiction, in rats at least, appears to be more in the environment than the
body. Rat Park[0] is a fascinating experiment demonstrating this.

[0] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park>

~~~
chimeracoder
Thank you for bringing up the Rat Park experiment.

The Rat Park experiment is often conveniently ignored because it essentially
debunks a lot of common 'wisdom' regarding drugs. It's hard to villainize
certain drugs as 'bad' and evil' while endorsing others in light of the Rat
Park experiment, which shows that 'bad' drugs aren't chemically 'bad' -
they're just taken in a 'bad' setting.

Fortunately, the theory is now becoming harder to ignore, because that's the
basis of a lot of effective modern drug treatment, which tries to identify the
underlying cause of drug addiction (the environmental/behavioral problems that
cause an individual to abuse drugs), rather than focusing on the drug use
itself. That's not saying that drugs don't have a physical impact - they do -
but if drugs are being used as an outlet to compensate for environmental
factors, then removing access to those substances will just cause the
underying problems to manifest in other (potentially worse) ways.

It's the difference between treating the symptom of a disease and treating the
disease itself. Yes, you might want to take cough medicine if you have lung
cancer, since it'll help with your symptoms, but you'd be a fool to think that
that's going to cure the tumor that causes you to cough.

This theory is very powerful, because it means that you can use the same
techniques to treat drug addiction and other psychological ailments like PTSD,
anorexia and self-mutilation, which are themselves often best thought of as
psychophysiological responses to environmental factors.

Interestingly, if you _really_ want to use physiological symptoms as the basis
for determining whether a drug is addictive or not, then alcohol is probably
_the most addictive substance known to man_. If you ever want to give yourself
a scare, look up some of the symptoms of acute alcohol withdrawal (which can
actually kill you, after a long and painful bout of _delirium tremens_ and
worse).

TL;DR: Addiction is best thought of as a mental response to environmental
factors. So, in a sense, it really _is_ 'all in the mind'. Or alternatively,
not at all in the mind, and all in the environment. Whichever way you prefer
to think of it.

------
bluehat
Just wanted to throw out there: please don't start any drug meant to impact
the way you see the world without supervision (preferably, professional
supervision). If something bad/weird happens, you might not be the first
person to notice, especially if the response is emotional/perception based.

------
johngalt
Getting a full nights sleep every night does wonders for concentration as
well. Don't think of your body as the jar your brain walks around in. They are
very tightly linked. If I wanted the effects he describes I'd spend 30mins on
the elliptical.

------
johnyzee
Trying to hack the body like this is the equivalent of fiddling around with
some extremely complex code that you have no idea what does (in production, on
an infinitely complex system with zero unit test coverage).

~~~
NinetyNine
Your comment is nothing but a metaphor for fearing the unknown.

~~~
siegecraft
that's how I justify my drug use, too

------
amirf
_The music also made a big difference. Listening to Infected Mushroom while
high on Modafinil and coding up a storm made me feel like I was some kind of
insane coding machine that could complete pretty much any coding task in
record time._

Hilarious :)

On a more serious note - this sounds a lot like taking Ritalin. _I was just as
productive if I was well rested, ...and working on something I cared about._
\- this isn't always an option. Sure, heavy use of anything isn't good. Lest
we forget it's a drug after all, even regular use might be too much for some.

I really liked the article and the approach on things.

Thanks

~~~
peterarmstrong
I'm glad someone else noticed the mention of Infected Mushroom. I had many
good (no Modafinil, just caffeine) coding binges listening to it years ago.
After a while it gets too much and you move on to Oakenfold mixes, Daft Punks'
Alive 2007, etc, but if you've never coded to Infected Mushroom's Classical
Mushroom you need to try it...

------
the_cat_kittles
Thank you for writing this, it articulates everything i have felt about it
perfectly! Eerily similar to my experiences. It has always bothered me that
people think these drugs make you smarter, because they dont. I think of them
more like shots athletes get in hurt muscles- the shot didn't make you
stronger, you just dont feel the pain anymore, at the expense of long term
health. Only in very special circumstances is that worth it.

------
robbles
Seems like there's a lot of consensus here that Modafinil has no known
dangerous side effects. I'm a little curious and concerned about the
potentially fatal skin conditions (SJS, etc.) mentioned in the wikipedia
article though:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side_effects>

Anyone know about this? Is this a race-specific problem? Or just not as
dangerous a risk as it sounds?

~~~
gwern
> Anyone know about this? Is this a race-specific problem? Or just not as
> dangerous a risk as it sounds?

Look carefully at the FDA information and run the numbers to decide for
yourself: <http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil#side-effects>

------
pavelkaroukin
I bought pack of generic modafinil (do not remember exact brand). It was
manufactured in India.

It had no effect on me. I tried up to 4 100mg pills at once (i.e. I started
with half table one day and each day increasing dosage). Although, I also
suspect it might be a fake, since I was buying from some online "pharmacy".
Provigil both too expensive and require doctor's approval.

Just found about piracetam, thanks to this thread. just ordered :)

~~~
driverdan
Quality varies significantly between Indian manufacturers. Sun Pharma Modalert
is a known quality brand.

------
woadwarrior01
Interesting timing, just when I was about to swallow a 100mg pill of modalert
to pull an all nighter and I find this on HN. I usually keep a few of them in
drawers at home and work for one of those `rare occasions`. Tonight happens to
be one of them.

------
alinajaf
Someone brought this up last time we talked about this on HN so I thought I
would mention it here. Modafinil is technically a _stimulant_, not a cognitive
enhancer (like piracetam).

~~~
gwern
Er, piracetam is usually described as being a nootropic, and substances like
nicotine or amphetamines or caffeine as being cognitive enhancers due to the
existence of known decreases in performance; because modafinil has few to no
known mental penalties, it is usually described as being a nootropic and not a
cognitive enhancer.

Stimulant, on the other hand, is a completely cross-cutting orthogonal
classification. A drug which enhanced transfer of information into long-term
memory and nothing else could rightly be described as a nootropic but not a
stimulant.

------
nym
I have heard it very difficult to get a prescription for Modafinil, even if
you have work sleep shift disorder because most doctors aren't used to
prescribing this drug.

------
sniperjoe
Prescription of modafinil for any reason other the conditions for which it's
indicated (hypersomnia or accepted off label use) is highly irresponsible of
physicians.

------
powertower
For anyone that's interested, when he says "online pharmacy", what that really
means (at least in the US), is:

A. An Overseas pseudo-legal (at best) operation that will send you the drugs
discreetly in an envelope. The success rate of getting it through US Customs
will be good as long as it's not shipped from a hot spot and does not come in
a package.

B. A Mexican drug dealing operation that smuggles the drugs across the boarder
to a US stash house, which then takes orders online, receives payment for the
order via MoneyGram, and ships the orders out from within the US overnight by
FedEx to your door steps.

~~~
Jach
C. The Silk Road.

~~~
driverdan
Modafinil on Silk Road is about twice the price of online pharmacies and most
of the people selling it appear to be international.

------
billpatrianakos
I would agree that occasional use isn't a good idea. I've done that and it
really is more trouble than it's worth. That said I still do it. If I have a
day where I'm extra lazy I'll take a Nuvigil (Armodafinil, which is the active
isomer of Modafinil) and be productive but with some side effects which
include

Headaches

Nervousness

Some inability to focus between tasks

I've also found dosage has a sweet spot. I wouldn't take less than 150mg of
Nuvigil as lower dosages make me strangely more nervous.

------
georgieporgie
Stuff I've tried over the course of the last year or so:

1) Caffeine pills, 200mg each, around $4 at Walmart. I wrote about this
before. The effects are far superior to coffee. More consistent, no intestinal
distress. I could take one upon waking, and another around lunchtime. I
haven't been taking them daily for a few months now, and my daytime
productivity is certainly lower.

2) Piracetam with Choline Citrate and, sometimes, Centrophenoxine. I would
usually take around 2g Piracetam and 1 - 2g Choline in the morning, and repeat
the dose in the afternoon. It definitely has some effect, but I can't say
whether or not it's really a positive one. I suspect that the key (like what
the author of this article mentioned) is to have your tasks laid out clearly.
I definitely had a few weeks where I got a tremendous amount done, but it was
early on in the project when I knew exactly what to do, and how to do it.
Overall, I say the jury is out on whether or not Piracetam has a beneficial
effect on me. It might increase crankiness, which I've never read about from
anyone else.

3) 1,3 Dimethylamylamine (DMAA), one of the three primary ingredients in
Jack3d (a very popular pre-workout supplement). I settled on 2x20mg DMAA pills
and 1x200mg caffeine about 30 minutes before my workout. Initially, I would
get a mild sense of euphoria while walking to the gym. After about three
doses, the euphoria seems to have gone away, but I am still able to power
through my weight lifting routine without hesitation or procrastination. I've
done this every other day for about a month now, and as long as I'm getting
sufficient sleep, the effects seem consistent. I generally take it at around
5pm, get to the gym at 5:30, work out for 60 - 90 minutes, go home, and eat.
By 11pm I'm very sleepy, and I don't have any more trouble getting to sleep
before midnight than I normally do. Like most Internet/information addicted
people, I certainly have my nights of senselessly clicking until the wee
hours, but this seems unaffected by the DMAA + caffeine. By the way, I wear a
heart rate monitor when experimenting with this, and I don't think I would do
any intense cardio while on it. I don't believe I'm anywhere near a
problematic dose level, but I'll err on the side of caution.

4) Cardio. I started feeling depressed heading into the holidays, so I did 30
minutes of moderate cardio (140bpm heart rate) every day for two weeks (I
typically do a lot of cycling in the summer months, but not so much in late
fall through early spring). My depression lifted very quickly. In general, I'm
of the opinion that 30 minutes daily or every other day will do quite a lot to
increase general alertness throughout the day. I'm going to experiment with
something even easier: taking a morning walk first thing in the morning every
day.

~~~
peter_l_downs
I haven't tried any of the pills you've mentioned, but I'll second #4. I run
all summer and fall, but take the winter off. I find that I'm _much_ less
happy and more irritable when I'm not exercising regularly. I'm sure there are
a billion [1] studies showing that exercise is good for your mental health,
but I'm lazy and don't feel like googling for one.

[1] An exaggeration.

~~~
georgieporgie
The thing that I found particularly interesting about my cardio experiment is
that I'm already more fit and active than average. Every other day (barring
the occasional extra rest day), I'm at the gym, doing 60 - 90 minutes of free
weights. My heart rate is often 140 - 170 when I come off a set, and I pretty
much jump on the next set when my heart rate hits 125. By the definitions I
found, that is technically cardio, yet doing 30 minutes of daily bike riding
_still_ seemed to have an effect.

I've also found that having a bright light helps, particularly in the darkest
of the Pacific Northwest winter months.

I started taking 2,000iu of vitamin D upon waking, too. This may or may not
help with wakefulness and may or may not assist in combating depression.

~~~
astral303
An experienced running coach has recently opined that spending an hour in the
gym doing strength is about equivalent to 10 minutes of running.

Part of the reasoning could be the activation of different energy systems.
Lifting activates the anaerobic system, whereas sustained cardio activates the
aerobic system and dips into the anaerobic only at higher levels of effort.
The anaerobic system transmits something like 30+ ATP (energy currency of the
body), whereas aerobic is 2 ATP [1]. That might explain why you experience
this difference.

[1]
[http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~vking2/PhotosynthesisandCellular...](http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~vking2/PhotosynthesisandCellularRespirationpost.ppt)

