
No Way NSA - twog
http://nowaynsa.com/
======
sneak
The really terrible part of all of this is that the administration's response
has been to put James Clapper, the guy who lied under oath to congress about
the scope of these very programs, in charge of reviewing the policies that
created them.

He should be facing charges, and instead he's promoted to an oversight role.

[http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/08/12/this-technical-
review-g...](http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/08/12/this-technical-review-group-
brought-to-you-by-the-booz-allen-hamilton-director-of-national-intelligence/)

~~~
krichman
"Obama announces the formation of a 'least dependent' group to review our
capabilities."

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Everlag
Really nice site that could get out into social media and spread quite easily!
I mean, that combination of animations and potent yet minimalistic text really
gets the point through in a small package.

~~~
ChrisAntaki
It's great more & more people are waking up.

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jordanthoms
Nice - one point, it wasn't at all obvious from the initial screen that you
can scroll down. There should be a visual hint.

~~~
merlish
I also missed this just now. Thought it was a one-slide site. Big down arrow
please!

~~~
hobs
There is a bouncing down arrow at the bottom middle of the screen, unless it
has changed since you posted this comment.

Update: I read lower, and Mike totally DID add it after these comments.

------
sneak
"NSA surveillance has damaged foreign relations. Millions are protesting
worldwide and European businesses are abandoning U.S. tech companies. Total
losses could reach $35 billion."

I'm not sure where WaPo got that $35bn number, but it seems quite low to me.

------
grandpoobah
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.

^ Missing the end quote

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mciarlo
Thanks for all the kind words :) Fixed up the quote and the first slide.

I'm doing everything I can to try and get this in front of people. I'm
extremely grateful that a discussion happened on HN and am looking forward to
seeing where the site goes from here.

Cheers, Mike

------
theboss
Lots of inaccuracies and fallacies.

The NSA Spying is not against the fourth amendment. If you're a lawyer feel
free to correct me but the supreme court has made it very clear that they
believe the framers were being literal when they said "persons, houses,
papers, and effects." and they have said they believe this cannot be extended
to non-tangible things like data.

And whether I'm right or wrong it's better to say 'We Believe' it is a
violation... because if it was then the NSA would have been forced to stop

The big problem is that the NSA can do this without breaking the law...

~~~
rgbrenner
I've never heard the argument you're making -- that it doesn't apple because
it's data. The NSA/gov has said repeatedly what their argument is.. it's
because you've entrusted a third-party with it, and therefore there was no
expectation of privacy.

~~~
theboss
Yes this is a reason too. Katz v US.

People need to think "Who really owns my facebook account, my twitter account,
my dropbox, etc..." If it isnt you (it isnt... trust me) then you're out of
luck

~~~
magicalist
That is _not_ correct. It is still your data (that's why you need to grant a
license to these companies to show your pictures even just back to you), and
the third party doctrine _is not_ settled law.

It has backing in precedent, but as ghayes cites above, the supreme court has
given some strong signals that they would not agree with it today (e.g. in US
v Jones). In addition, the incredibly important US v Warshak had the sixth
circuit ruling that email in long term storage on a third party's server had
just as much expectation of privacy for the owner as any personally held
document. There are several companies now using that as a legal basis for
requiring a warrant (which requires demonstrating probable cause) for account
content requests (apparently outside of those coming from the FBI/NSA,
unfortunately...), so it's likely this will come up before too long, either in
Congress (I'd love to see the ECPA reformed but don't have high hopes) or in
the Supreme Court, especially if another court of appeals rules differently.

I also have no idea why you cite Katz v US, as that's where the "reasonable
expectation of privacy" test itself comes from, which runs directly counter to
the later legal theory of the third party doctrine (in e.g. Smith v Maryland),
which takes little account for reasonable expectations so long as you're
handing off your communications to a third party.

~~~
theboss
My point that "you don't own it" is more from a security standpoint. ..which
was pretty dumb to say. I can't verify that companies wont give my data to the
feds and I can't trust them not to. It isn't my data to maintain anymore

------
fusiongyro
"Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
evidence of some interesting new phenomenon."

------
pbz
This is good, but I think a more effective way is to bring up some
hypotheticals. You don't even have to make up your own. Just look at history
and you will find lots of examples of how secrecy leads to corruption, in-
fighting, negative psychological effects, loss of free expressions, fear,
oppression, etc.

One neat way to approach this would be to talk about an example that happened
in the past and draw parallels with what it going on today. It's difficult for
people to understand or see where all this leads, which is why there's so
little revolt. Unfortunately, by the time people feel the effects it's too
late.

------
bazillion
"There is no evidence that the FISA Court and NSA programs are effective. Mass
surveillance did not prevent tragedy in Boston or aid in identifying those
responsible."

I think this part very much weakens your argument and should be removed
entirely. First, the NSA has nothing to do with domestic surveillance -- that
falls upon the FBI. Secondly, you can collect all of the data that you want,
but you won't be able to prevent the lone wolf element (as opposed to
organized terrorism), especially with no national database of firearms.

~~~
D9u

         >the NSA has nothing to do with domestic surveillance
    

Have you not been reading the news?

[https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline](https://www.eff.org/nsa-
spying/timeline)

[http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/06/ns...](http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/06/nsa-
latest-the-secret-history-of-domestic-surveillance.html)

[http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/05/shocker-nsa-tools-for-
spyi...](http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/05/shocker-nsa-tools-for-spying-on-
foreign)

[http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/uk-dea-irs-
idUKBRE9...](http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/uk-dea-irs-
idUKBRE9761B620130807)

Thanks to the "Patriot Act" and "Threat Fusion Centers," along with other such
efforts to streamline the police state agenda in the name of the "War on
Terror," government agencies have been sharing information more readily than
in the past, apparently to the point of NSA derived intelligence being used in
pursuit of drug dealers and tax cheats on US soil.

Of course people are aware of the intended functions of the various federal
enforcement agencies, and the fact that these agencies are overstepping their
mandate is why people make websites such as the one featured here.

The quotes you refer to are quite relevant, in my view.

------
001sky
_According to a recent NSA memo, 1.6% of all online activity is monitored and
collected. That’s enough to capture more than 50% of all internet
communications._

== Leverage

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skrebbel
I like that the site's design is entirely based on the flag of the
Netherlands, famously the country with the highest amount of phone taps per
inhabitant.

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bendoernberg
This is awesome! Any chance you can repost tomorrow when it might get a bit
more attention?

~~~
sillysaurus
Just a FYI for the submitter: that's a bannable offense, and enforced.
Wouldn't want you to lose your account.

~~~
thejosh
reposting content is bannable?

Every week I see posts reposted daily - for example Bootstrap was posted
multiple times over a time period.

~~~
ZoF
Re-posting your own post, not happening to post the same link as someone else.

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EGreg
Spying? In MY country?

[http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/x-in-my-y](http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/x-in-
my-y)

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iamnotserious
Strange. I immediately looked past the goal of the site and fell in love with
how it looks instead. Fantastic work there.

