
Ask HN: Canada for tech jobs? - nicdc
Is now a good time to move to Canada for tech-related jobs, data science&#x2F;analytics in particular? What parts of Canada should one consider?
======
MikeTheRocker
I'm a Canadian software that moved from Victoria, BC to San Francisco, CA to
begin my career two years ago. My top earning friends in Canada of the same
experience level earn 2 - 4 times less than me and my peers here. I'm saving
significantly more here than them too even after a much higher cost of living.
The quality of life here is worse though in some ways. Most of all I miss the
politeness and generally less hostile demeanor of Canadians.

~~~
Voloskaya
> My top earning friends in Canada of the same experience level earn 2 - 4
> times less than me and my peers here

2 is possible, 4 seems like a big stretch. Are you really comparing apples to
apples? Or are you working for Google and comparing against someone working
for a random consultancy firm in Victoria? In Montréal, top software
developers salaries are around 200K CAD, a bit more if you go at Google, and
Montreal pays less than other cities.

~~~
betaby
200K CAD is basically unheard in Montreal for the IC. I know only one person
with total compensation like that and she is kind of tech manager. 135K Cad is
very high in Montreal for IC, median for the senior developer is around 90k,
100K considered very good.

~~~
Voloskaya
It's high but not unheard of (I am talking about total comp, not base salary).
I know plenty of IC making that and more. Of course I am biased, since I work
for an employer that does pay that kind of salary, so of course I know a lot
of my colleagues. This might only be achievable if you work for one the top AI
companies in the city however (Google Brain, Facebook Lab, Microsoft etc.). I
don't really know how it's like outside of my bubble.

And I agree that this is not common at all but OP was talking about "top
earning" friends.

However, even taking your median figure of 100k, I doubt the median salary in
the bay for a senior software engineer is 300K USD (4 times more).

~~~
betaby
Facebook Lab is how many employees in Montreal? 10? Microsoft doesn't pay 200k
CAD in Montreal in total comp to IC not even close to that.

~~~
Voloskaya
> Microsoft doesn't pay 200k CAD in Montreal in total comp to IC not even
> close to that.

You might want to get more up to date info on that.

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thinkingkong
Vancouver and Toronto are developing rather robust local economies. Vancouvers
is more satellite offices for large American companies like Amazon (15k).
Shopify announced prior to Covid that they were opening an office with 1000
people. A large portion of the jobs here have traditionally been as a visa
clearing house prior to having people move to the main campus but there are
lots of locals.

The biggest challenge in tech in Canada is salaries. Youre paid less and then
youre paid in CAD which is around 70% of USD. Then you factor in high house
prices in both Toronto and Vancouver and things arent so great.

If youre willing to live outside these areas then there are lots of
opportunities. Canada as a country in general is great, but it has its own set
of issues. Namely a lame resource extraction based economy and a hyper
willingness to sell all its assets - information economy and otherwise - at
discount prices to boost jobs.

~~~
riskneutral
The biggest issue in Canada is a lack of imagination and risk taking by the
capitalist class. They would rather stick to what they know, digging rocks and
sand out of the ground.

~~~
dang
That's harsh and put in a flamebaity rather than interest-furthering way
(which, please don't on HN!) but I think it's true that Canada is more risk-
averse than the US. If you think about it, that can be traced straight back to
the founding of the two countries. The two populations even self-selected for
risk tolerance to some extent. (I'm talking about English-speaking Canada.)

------
dagmx
Canadian salaries are quite a bit lower, but I’ll be honest in saying I was
happier with the quality of life in Vancouver than in the Bay, despite earning
twice as much here.

There is a growing tech community in Vancouver. There are more traditional
tech companies like Microsoft, Amazon and Apple. There’s also film and games
companies like Industrial Light and Magic, Sony Pictures Imageworks and
more... It’s definitely no Bay Area in terms of number of gigs or pay, and the
cost of living is almost as high, but again, I felt much happier there. It’s
obviously subjective and unquantifiable, but something to research and
consider too.

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swinnipeg
Salaries are a different story in Canada compared to the USA.

They are far less in Canada, a $200K CAD ($150K USD) tech job is rare,
actually, $150K CAD ($112K USD) are also uncommon.

Best job opportunities are in high COL locations (Vancouver, Toronto),
followed by Montreal. But unlike the USA the compensation (for MOST employees)
in those markets is only moderately higher than lower COL locations. (Calgary,
Edmonton, Winnipeg...etc).

~~~
baseballMan
On top of the lower base salaries, the compensation you receive in the form of
stocks is also a good bit lower.

~~~
CountSessine
Exactly - don’t expect hundreds of thousands of dollars of option grants. The
equities markets are really very different here and without good exits, there
won’t be good options and equities grants.

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somerandomqaguy
I'm Canadian that works in QA, specially in Alberta. If the US is an option,
go to work in the US or for a US based company remotely.

Base salary is much higher in the US. To give you an idea: at year 8 of my
career my salary is technically $52,000 Canadian per year. I've had people in
the Seattle telling me that number should be nearer to $100,000 USD. And my
$51,000 Canadian translates to $34,000 USD when the conversation rate is
considered. The difference grows when you consider that the US typically has a
lower tax rate then Canada and that many US employers are usually willing to
provides benefits that would cover services that normally the government would
be paying for.

That said, I'm only speaking as someone that works in QA and the city I live
in does not have as strong a tech industry as those in British Columbia,
Ontario, or Quebec.

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ab_testing
I think it depends what country are your from?

Lots of Canadians here will suggest to move to the United States for higher
pay and better opportunitites.

But if you are from a developing country, then moving to the USA is very
convulted and not an easy option for you like it is for Canadians.

So, If you that is your situation, then Canada is an exciting option and you
might be able to work for a lot of US companies that have Canadian options.

~~~
klerpi
This describes me perfectly. I'm from Brazil and I want to leave for another
country with better life quality.

The US is a nightmare regarding immigration. The Canadian system is straight
forward for qualified people.

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Tiktaalik
Yes.

Been working here for a decade and the tech economy is the best it's ever
been.

Big cos like Amazon, Microsoft have set up shop in Vancouver and are here to
stay. They provide a nice fallback option to any sort of smaller startups that
don't pan out.

The games industry has bounced back in a big way too. The multi thousand
capacity EA Games studio in Burnaby is full and they've had to get off site
offices.

Add on the standard benefits of Canada:

* free universal healthcare means being an entrepeneur is easy.

* reasonable gun regulations (no concealed carry nonsense)

* generally more progressive governments than USA.

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iou
I work in Victoria, BC earning $200k+ CAD working remote for a big US tech
company. It's the best of both, live in a wonderful place and get paid well.

~~~
djmips
livin' the dream. I also live in Victoria and used to work in the US for much
higher salary. I've thought about this... I do love it here!

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quake
Apart from the fact that Canada has closed its border with the US because of
COVID, of course.

Pay on average is lower, but comes with a higher degree of social security and
stability. Of course, Canada is not without its own racist past or present,
but it's not quite as "on display" as the US. Our previous prime minister
tried to have a "barbaric cultural practices" hotline which was essentially a
dogwhistle to more Islamophobic elements of the Conservative party base.

That being said, I'm thankful that our police aren't tear gassing protesters
in Ottawa so that Trudeau can have a photoshoot.

The tech industry in general isn't as large as the US, but does carry a lot of
talent. Places to note are Kitchener-Waterloo, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver,
Montreal and...maybe Calgary? I'm not so sure about the data science field
myself, but I do know that most large tech firms around here do carry an
analytics team.

Edit to add: like others have noted, COL is high in Toronto and Vancouver.
That being said, I absolutely loved living in Vancouver and would move back
there from Waterloo in a heartbeat. If you're able to land a job and afford
living there (or more likely in another Lower Mainland city), I would
recommend it.

~~~
gpm
> Apart from the fact that Canada has closed its border with the US because of
> COVID, of course.

I believe it's still open for work, it is in the other direction.

~~~
Alex63
I think you'll find it is closed, unless you have an urgent need to cross
(e.g., sick parent). If you do cross, you will have to self quarantine for 2
weeks (which kind of defeats the purpose of trying to help your sick
relative). Last we heard, it will be June 21 before we can visit our parents
in Vancouver.

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techbro
What’s your visa situation?

I am from India - getting a US visa/green card is too much trouble. I started
at a tech company in Canada at 70K Cad annually in 2008. The salary went up to
120k by 2016.

In these 8 years - I went from a work permit to Canadian citizen. Also started
a family with kids.

I moved to Bay Area in 2016 for a non-Faang company at 200K USD annual total
compensation. Moved to Faang in 2018 and comp is 400k USD.

Will move back to Canada by 2020/21 and am counting on my company allowing
remote due to covid. Yes it will be a salary cut but that’s fine. I want to
raise my kids in Canada.

Bay Area experience is worth it - financially and technical too

Long term it depends on you

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loufe
If you're considering Montréal, do your research before. French language is
not a requirement to get by day-to-day in the city (though elsewhere in the
province is another story). We have a decent tech sector with some big
companies like CAE, Mindgeek, and Hopper. There is also a respectable AI
research scene and an incresing amount of startups in the city. If you're open
to learning French (a good chunk of jobs require it) and have any data centre
credibility, you might be on a good trajectory. Québec has super low
electricity costs and data centres are interested for that reason.

The city has a low cost of living, high provincial taxes, but a top notch
cultural scene, bar scene, festival scene, etc.

If not Montréal, Toronto or Vancouver have their callings but most tech folks
I studied with headed off to the states for higher wages - but I imagine many
of them will return with stacked savings accounts at some point. As someone
else pointed out, Waterloo is a special case and might be worth looking at,
too.

~~~
Maven911
What would you say are the wages for different types of tech roles and
seniority in Montreal? And how accessible are those to non-native French
speakers?

~~~
mardifoufs
Your salary is probably going to be lower in Montreal, but it's much cheaper
city to live in than Vancouver or Toronto. There are high paying jobs if you
know where to find them, but it seems to me like a lot of the software
engineers I've come across here are a little less "ambitious" and don't mind
settling for a smaller salary if it means more stability. It's also very taboo
here to talk about your salary (sometimes even to your SO?) but that's
changing and I think it's not unique to Quebec at all.

In my experience, and purely anecdotally, I've really witnessed a 2 speeds
system where some people are very highly paid (120k+, keep in mind you can buy
a condo in the middle of downtown for 300k) and some are getting very (40-50k)
low salaries for the same amount of experience, same alma matter and probably
even the same skill . How you sell yourself is always a huge factor in how
much you get paid, sure, but the difference is particularly striking in
Montreal imo.

As for seniority, most of the teams I've seen are very young with very dynamic
leads. The industry is booming right now ( or was booming before march, I'm
not sure now).

~~~
Maven911
Thanks for the detailed info!

~~~
swat535
Agree with the OP.

To add on to this, from someone who is actually living in Montreal.. Quebec
has the highest tax rates in Canada.

To give you an idea, the majority of software engineers here make between:
70k-95k.

This means you should be ready live with around 4-6k/mo after taxes.

The rent is still cheap, but not as cheap as you think, a descent apartment
will cost you ~1,200$/mo.

The healthcare is (almost) free, you still have to pay the government
~200-400$ year if you're not on a private plan. But it's nowhere near the US.

Also French really is a requirement, especially when dealing with the
government.

------
actuator
Seeing a lot of comments about low salaries in Canada, is there anywhere
outside US that salaries are that good in tech?

London, I know is about half of US if you look at FAANG comps and you have
higher taxation compared to a city like Seattle.

Zurich, is about 70% with lower tax but a very high CoL

------
motohagiography
If I were doing data science, I would be in Toronto, Ottawa, or Waterloo.
Given the customers with enough data for that in Canada are almost all
institutional, and that's where they are. You could go to Victoria, which is
the capital city of BC where it's mainly government driven work, but there
isn't going to be a big growth story there.

You can make a living and have a comfortable lifestyle in Canada, but it is
not the best place to create or build wealth. It's where to be if you bring it
with you.

Given the small and dispersed distribution of the population, startup level
growth mainly comes from access to the US market. Access to the US market
tends to mean being HQ'd there, so you get quite a few "offshored,"
engineering and development shops to take advantage of the currency, SRED tax
credits, COL and salary differences, where the US HQ handles the revenue,
product management, marketing, equity, M&A and other business decisions.

The two main markets for enterprise products and dev are Toronto and Ottawa.
There are only five notable banks with offices across the country and around
the world, who share a largely homogeneous enterprise tech culture. Health
care is a public sector business, and there is lots of opportunity to make a
living in health care tech, but it is managed as a sprawling enterprise
centralized economy that acts as a ceiling on growth. There are some notable
examples, but they use Canada as a proving ground before going to market in
the US.

The way most entrepreneurial money appears to be made in Canada is by
operating "recruiting and consulting firms," which provide institutions with
arms length contractors that they can add and remove at will instead of
dealing with the challenges of employees.

Quality of life compared to american cities in decline is incomparably better.
The hard part is affording it. Owning a an actual house near a metropolitan
area is out of reach for first time home buyers, and places with affordable
housing are outside commuting distance from anywhere that does software
development. Short term rentals have sent rents skyrocketing everywhere within
a 90-minute drive to Toronto.

If you are already on the property ladder where you are, using that as
leverage to buy a place here is the best way to do it. If you are not, it's
smarter to get the capital from selling your first house as a downpayment to
get you into something in Canada, as real estate is basically the only way for
working people to build wealth.

------
cmdshiftf4
I'd personally wait 8-12 months and assess the situation then.

The reason I say this is because Canada's tech scene is largely comprised of
US companies near-shoring operations for cost reductions and with remote work
on the rise my view is that Canada's tech scene is now in a super fragile
state.

There's a significant incentive for Canadian tech workers to work remotely for
US companies and similarly there's a massive incentive for US companies to
hire Canadians on Canadian salaries remotely.

Uber, Facebook, Google, Amazon etc. had expansion in Canada planned but I
wouldn't be surprised if this changes radically in the coming months. Shopify
already announced it was going fully remote and then offered what were
previously Canadian-only jobs out to the Americas entirely. It's not
unfathomable that other Canadian companies will do the same.

If remote succeeds, I cannot see what incentive would drive the further
expansion of the local tech scene in Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal etc. Meetups
and similar only worked because people were forced to be in the city, they
were held directly after work and usually offered some sort of food/beverages
as a substitute to having to sort out dinner. If the requirement to be in the
city falls or is removed entirely, I cannot see what will incentivize locals
to get together in a common location at anywhere near the same frequency as
before.

I'd recommend seeing how the rest of the year / start of next year plays out
before planning anything concrete.

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WatermelonMan
Tons of opportunities in Vancouver and Toronto at both small companies and
large multinationals. But salaries are low (compared to the US) and cost of
living is high.

The quality of life in Canada is wonderful if you can make the numbers work.
Vancouver and Toronto offer different things so I'd research which one suits
you better. They're both amazing in their own way.

I can't speak for Montreal which has its own unique culture unfamiliar to me,
but I believe it's comparable to Vancouver and Toronto, and cost of living is
better. It's a very distinct place.

Smaller, more affordable cities you could consider are Ottawa, Waterloo, and
Victoria. They each come with their own trade-offs but have decent tech
industries. Victoria is only really affordable compared to Vancouver/Toronto
but it's a very idyllic small city if that's what you're after.

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ninjaturtlez
I work remotely out of Kitchener for a SF company. Don't get paid the san fran
dollars obviously but the quality of life and cost of living is great

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mynegation
From where and what is your visa status?

Is now a good time for anything? If you go through temp work permit or
immigration route, these things were not fast before, they sure are even
slower now.

If you do move, Toronto, Waterloo, Vancouver, Ottawa are good places in that
order. Do not know much about Montreal, but outside of those you will be
having a hard time finding anything.

Data science - I cannot speak much about it, but if you want to do that,
governement and healthcare is probably your best bet.

------
aprdm
Depends where you’re moving from. Seems like most of the comments are
comparing to the USA tech scene in a FAANG company and only the financial
aspect ... nothing will compare to it if it is what you’re looking for.

However not everyone is looking to work in a FAANG or to live in the USA.

Canadá has a thriving tech scene and you will have a better quality of life
and pay than about everywhere else in the world that isn’t a FAANG in the USA

------
lordleft
My impression as a citizen of the US is that the social welfare in Canada is
more robust, but salaries are lower on average. For some folks the peace of
mind of knowing your healthcare isn't tethered to your job is worth the
reduction in income; for others, they can make so much in the states that they
feel it's worth it to try to build a career there. Just my highly anecdotal 2
cents.

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hourislate
My business partner for one of his other ventures, hired a kid who finished a
degree from University of Waterloo in NANO Technology Eng as a lab tech for a
starting salary of 48k.

It seems like his prospects were very limited. I'm not sure if it's his career
choice or if it's related to the high levels of underemployment in the Toronto
tech industry in general.

~~~
kingkongjaffa
Traditional engineering, especially academic, is not very well paid compared
to software engineering jobs.

Source: I skipped out on a Mechanical engineering PhD to join industry for
better $$, I then skipped out on Mechanical engineering industry for better
w/l balance and $$ working from home in a tech role.

------
designium
I'm sharing from Product Management perspective.

\- Director and above level PM can earn above: $140K CAD and beyond in major
cities like Toronto.

\- Sr. PM can earn: above $100K CAD easily but harder to be above $150K CAD.

\- Bay Area - based on the current conversations I have: \- Sr. PM or PM in a
FAANG type company or startup: around $170K USD \- Director level PM can be
above $200K USD

~~~
I-M-S
I'm also a PM in Toronto and looking for opportunities in post-Covid world.
I'd love to connect - my contact info is under my profile

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dleslie
Compensation is lower, but if you have a family it's probably worth it. It's
education, health care, and access to parks and such are generally easy to
come by, cheap/free and good; particularly in Metro Vancouver. Those things
make a world of difference when raising kids.

~~~
remote_phone
Vancouver real estate is ridiculously high, especially given how low the
salaries are

~~~
dleslie
Metro Vancouver isn't just the CoV; I know folks who live in Maple Ridge, Pitt
Meadows, and Mission who commute into the CoV to work. The West Coast Express
makes this a pleasant, painless and relatively swift commute.

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d_burfoot
Can someone knowledgeable about this issue comment about legal / tax
feasibility of getting a remote job with a US company and living in Canada or
elsewhere abroad?

~~~
dleslie
I work for an American company and live in Metro Vancouver. In fact, around
half the team lives here.

We own shares in the American company and are paid through a Canadian
subsidiary. That compensation scheme avoids burdening the employees with the
difficulty of declaring foreign earnings come tax time.

So for the most part it's the same as working for a Canadian company, but the
pay is better.

~~~
tfleming
Awesome! That's like the ideal situation right there. I'm an American that
moved to Canada back in 2002 and worked as a contractor for my US employer for
more than 4 years. The yearly tax stuff drove me insane.

~~~
dleslie
It's not so much ideal as a nice compromise. I'm still earning much less than
I would with similar experience doing similar work in _Seattle_, but I get to
stay in Canada and earn more than I could easily manage working for a local
company.

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blahbhthrow3748
Salaries working domestically in Canada are quite a bit lower, but CoL can
also be good. Shopify for instance pays ~150 for senior devs but in Ottawa or
Waterloo houses are pretty affordable.

I've had some luck working remotely in Canada for US companies - tax treatment
of stock options is worse and they typically have few or no benefits for
Canadians. On the other hand, you can have a significantly higher take home if
you find the right employer.

------
cloudking
Waterloo, Ontario

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arxv33
As many others said salary is about 1.5x-2x lower. Taxes are about 7-10%
higher. Cost of living in metro Toronto or Vancouver is pretty high, around
the same as Seattle or DC. Housing prices are outrageous in both the metro
areas. Vancouver over 1.5M for detached and Toronto around 1M.

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brailsafe
Depends on where you're coming from. Vancouver has a pretty healthy scene and
is a killer location.

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eswat
Past how robust the tech scene is in your desired location, you also have to
ask how the pandemic will affect your time outside of work. ie: Montréal will
be just as boring as Ottawa in terms of the nightlife scene for a while.

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pimbrouwers
Toronto without question. There are some company's in Waterloo as well, Google
has a presence there for example, because of the University of Waterloo. But
it is not as bustling as it was when RIM was still a big thing.

~~~
voisin
Not just a presence - it is their Canadian head office with more employees
than they have in the rest of the country combined. K-W is easily 2-3x more
bustling today than it was when RIM was booming. RIM sucked talent to the
suburbs where it diffused outward and failed to seed any amenity
concentration. That talent is all in the core now and has led to a massive
resurgence including dozens of bars and restaurants and other amenities.

~~~
pimbrouwers
So glad to hear that!

------
gregsadetsky
Related discussion on an unrelated thread about a week ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329537](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329537)

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techitvr
I am currently looking for a job opening, FullStack, or Mobile(Flutter or
Ionic) in Canada or the US... I really don't mind the location.. any
suggestions/recommendations?

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camgunz
I’m considering moving to Toronto or Vancouver through FSW, and my company’s
fully remote so hopefully I avoid the salary cliff. You might look into a
similar setup.

------
csdtx
It could be a good place where you can network a find a way to transfer to the
US. But staying in Canada permanently working in Tech is a bad idea salary
wise.

------
darepublic
You can do data science at banking institutions in Toronto, though the pay
will probably be much lower than elsewhere

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enjoyitasus
Yes

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4636760295
Expect the pay to be half or less, but you get better overall benefits, a
higher standard of living, in exchange for long winters and a mostly car-based
society.

~~~
dleslie
> a mostly car-based society.

I haven't commuted by car in ... 17 years.

I work in the Metro Vancouver area.

~~~
mthoms
Yeah I think Vancouver is an exception to the parent's comment. It's certainly
true in Calgary, Toronto, Montreal etc (IMHO).

~~~
bawolff
Its certainly an exception on the winter front.

How walkable cities are are going to vary by city. Vancouver is very walkable.
Also if you live somewhere up north, its not going to be that walkable even
with a great bus system, because waiting for the bus in -30 sucks.

~~~
dleslie
Eh, it's a dry cold. I've a good friend working in Nunavut right now and she
walks to work. The trick is that her rental is nestled in the center of town;
and the town is so small that there's no need for a car.

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cheez
No. Don't do it.

