
Why ISIS Attacked Paris - aaronbrethorst
http://juergensmeyer.org/why-isis-attacked-paris/
======
dopamean
I have to ask, and please excuse my ignorance here, but what are we supposed
to do?

If men, armed with guns and explosives, kill scores of civilians and injure
hundreds more in the name of a particular ideology what are we supposed to
actually do? When I hear the thought that "responding with knee-jerk
Islamophobia" is exactly what they want it begs the question: should we do
nothing? Any response is going to be deemed Islamophobic because the response
is going to single out Muslims. Is that really a crazy thing though? The
shooters sure weren't Shinto.

If we do literally nothing then what? We wait for another deadly, and possibly
more spectacular attack. Are we supposed to do nothing then too? At what point
are we supposed to act? I feel very torn on this because I have at times
thought that as crazy as some may be Islamist extremists sometimes have a
point about Western interference in the Middle East. However, I cannot get
behind the idea that when they gun down civilians at restaurants and concerts
that the response should be anything but severe.

I also take issue with people who label Western aggression in response to
terrorism "Islamophobic." We in the West are not the ones making it about
Islam. The terrorists are. They are the ones showing up with guns screaming
about their God. They are the ones using their religion to recruit and justify
their actions. And so when governments go after them then YES, they are going
after Muslims. That is the bed they made and unfortunately we all have to
sleep in it.

~~~
Natanael_L
How about first stopping with what we know makes things worse - NOT provoking
them by for example interfering the way CIA have staged coups for decades,
causing internal animosity, bombing carelessly (see the US bomb that hit
Doctors Without Borders recently), etc...

All these countries are being careless and heavy handed, and the origins of
most of the high profile terrorists of today can be traced back to actions
taken by western countries. So many rebel groups armed by western agencies
later turned into terrorists and guerillas once the agencies left, so many
times, over and over. So many aided coup makers just defected and kept their
power for themselves.

The most effective way to get rid of terrorists is to take away their
recruitment base, by not giving people more reasons to attack. Yes, it will
take long until all the current terrorists are gone. But the current methods
are only making things worse.

~~~
notsony
NO NO NO

Let's end the myth that Western foreign policy is (solely) to blame.

What about Islamic terrorists killing people in Southern Thailand? Is there
something wrong with their foreign policy?

What about Islamic terrorists killing Filipinos for the past 20-30 years? Have
Christians been oppressing Muslims over there?

What about the recent clashes between Muslims and Buddhist monks in Burma?
What did the monks do wrong?

Radical Islam is a GLOBAL jihad movement.

~~~
omginternets
Exactly this. The elements for violence are baked into Islamic cannon in a way
that has no equivalent in any other messianic religion.

The west holds its share of blame, but so does Islam.

~~~
DanBC
You ignore the hundreds of years of violence perpetrated in the names of other
religions.

~~~
omginternets
No, I absolutely do not. What you are ignoring is that the canonical text of
these religions are not equal. Where are the Tibetan suicide bombers?

Ignoring the religious and theological basis for this violence is part of the
reason we've been so ineffective in fighting it. Clearly social tensions are
part of the problem, but so is the religion itself.

~~~
DanBC
Aum Shinryko drew upon Tibettan buddhist teachings.

There are plenty of buddhist terrorist attacks, and these can be found with
simple web searches.

Tibetan armed struggle also happens, but because it's in China i) Chinese
authority hides it ii) Chinese authority uses a too broad definition of
terrorism. But there was armed resistance in 2008 in Lhassa.

~~~
omginternets
>There are plenty of buddhist terrorist attacks, and these can be found with
simple web searches.

There's a negligible number of buddhist terrorist attacks compared to muslim
terrorist attacks.

The position you're defending is absurd and betrays an _a priori_ conclusion
on your part.

~~~
Natanael_L
Still easy to find:

[http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/2/myanmars-
buddhi...](http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/2/myanmars-buddhist-
terrorism-problem.html)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence#Regional...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence#Regional_examples)
[http://world.time.com/2013/06/20/extremist-buddhist-monks-
fi...](http://world.time.com/2013/06/20/extremist-buddhist-monks-fight-
oppression-with-violence/)

------
rrggrr
ISIS attacked because their key financiers in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and
elsewhere aren't dead yet. Western intelligence knows who many of these people
are.

eg. [http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-
releases/Pages/jl...](http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-
releases/Pages/jl2605.aspx)

The mosques where operations are financed, recruiting done and plans laid are
still standing.

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-
uk/1...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-
uk/11000794/Muslim-bank-accounts-closed-by-HSBC-in-wake-of-money-laundering-
fine.html)

Terrorism viewed as overhead by some countries, encourages more of the same.

[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/08/italian-
intelli...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/08/italian-intelligence-
lied-hostage-rescue-bruno-pelizzari-debbie-calitz)

I imagine much lip service will be paid and funds expended further analyzing
and discussing the problem.

~~~
cm2187
In wonder if we shouldn't treat Qatar gas and Saudi oil the same way as blood
diamond.

------
wazoox
This is spot on. I can't fathom how people can still pretend that more of the
terrible, stupid, catastrophic policy that has been practiced since 2001 could
be the response.

 _ISIS is desperate. It needs a victory, a vivid show of force to bolster the
morale of its supporters, attract new volunteers, and with luck, intimidate
its foes._ [...]

 _This is why the response to ISIS is such a critical matter. A knee-jerk
Islamophobic response that accuses Islam of violence will help ISIS by
alienating Muslims and reinforcing the notion that the Islamic world is under
siege and needs to be defended. Similarly, policies that will restrict Syrian
refugees—themselves victims of ISIS—will only enhance the anti-Muslim image of
the West. And military action might make matters worse, much worse._

------
sbuttgereit
There are many points in this article with which I disagree. To treat an enemy
as though it is not an enemy is folly. To suggest that violent ideology,
dogma, and history have no bearing on the actions of individuals that adhere
to that ideology/dogma, and then claim that somehow we (assuming the Western
world) have more control over the responses of the Islamic world is
foolishness.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali has a much more informed perspective.
[https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/09/islam-is-a-religion-
of-...](https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/09/islam-is-a-religion-of-violence-
ayaan-hirsi-ali-debate-islamic-state/)

~~~
rorykoehler
First we must ask who is our enemy? My enemy is anyone who uses violence as a
tool to gain power. I am not represented by the military actions of Western
governments. When I see the Muslim hashtag #notinmyname I feel it applies to
me too but in relation to all that has gone on in North Africa and the Middle
East in recent times. When I see my cousin join the Marines to go fight in
Afghanistan I see the same thing as what I see when I see young angry Islamic
men shooting up a concert in Paris, that is misguided, brainwashed and
exploited young men doing the bidding of power hungry assholes.

------
brimtown
Cache: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:lV-
hx4M...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:lV-
hx4M_v9YJ:juergensmeyer.org/why-isis-attacked-
paris/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

------
cm2187
I am not convinced ISIS is really the problem in Paris. It sure is the problem
in the regions under its control in the middle east. But re Paris, it appears
that all the terrorists identified so far were French (or from Belgium). In
fact all the previous terrorist attempts in France were made by French
nationals or residents. I hear people claiming it is still ISIS because they
have been trained and armed by ISIS in Syria. That may be the case but they
haven't gone to Syria to do some innocent tourism and came back terrorists. We
are talking about home grown radicalised activists here. If there wouldn't be
ISIS there would probably be another cause.

~~~
elthran
I wonder how much of the "Frenchness" of the attacks that Paris has
experienced is to do with Syria being post-WW1 French mandate?

I suspect not much - but part of me does wonder why they're the main EU
country involved in the conflict.

~~~
cm2187
I am not a specialist but my intuition is that history does play a role in
France's hostility to Al Assad. France has been traditionally close to Lebanon
and the Syrian sponsored violence and terrorism didn't go well with the French
diplomacy (Chirac in particular was personally outraged by the assassination
of Hariri).

But I doubt it has anything to do with ISIS. It's a relatively recent
creation, and mostly a Saudi inspired organisation so I doubt there is much to
do with France.

I think France is mostly involved because they are the largest western
contributor country to ISIS in term of jihadists.

------
mercurial
> In the case of the Paris attacks it appears to be ISIS’ own demoralized
> supporters and the French public who could easily be whipped up into
> enthusiasm for a military attack on ISIS

Er, France has carried a large number of airstrikes against ISIS targets
already. If he means boots on the ground, I don't think that's going to happen
unless restricted to a small number of spec ops personnel, which for all I
know is already happening.

------
MarcScott
Cached as down for me

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://juergensmeyer.org/why-
isis-attacked-paris/)

------
peterwaller
I can't see the article, I see this:

    
    
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Nice. 60MiB of RAM needed to show a single article.

I know, I know, RAM is cheap...

~~~
task_queue
RAM isn't cheap when it's integrated in your chipset.

------
obrero
All through the last month, the French have been bombing their "former"
colony, Syria, continually. Last week reports were coming about the French
bombs ( [http://www.france24.com/en/20151109-france-syria-strike-
isla...](http://www.france24.com/en/20151109-france-syria-strike-islamic-
state-oil-facility-military) ).

Now the Syrians dodging French bombs have turned around and bombed the French.
News reports say the bombers contained Syrians, and ISIS's statement makes the
reason very clear - about the French's "strikes against Muslims in the land of
the Caliphate with their jets".

France's bullying and killing of Syrians didn't get much press...if it did it
was celebrated. Of course, the corporate media doesn't mention at all that the
French have been bombing the Syrians for a month - only that some Syrians
finally retaliated.

Insofar as ISIS being beyond the pale and such...ho-hum...US and EU leaders
were saying that about Syria's secular leader over the past few years, that he
was a monster gassing his own people. They've been trying to undermine his
government for the past years (thus helping cause this over and above the
bombings).

It looks like the imperialist powers have finally found some people with the
courage to bomb the bombers.

When Syria was a French colony, Syrians marched in the streets at the end of
World War II in 1945 to show their desire for independence. The French army
shot into the crowds (as they did in Algeria etc.)

That the French have been bombing the people who just bombed them is probably
unknown to 99% of people, since the corporate press never mentions it. So
anything I hear is just some Orwellian Two Minute Hate.

It's kind of like 9/11...it was never mentioned the US had military bases in
their puppet dictatorship "Saudi" Arabia for over a decade. Never mentioned
most Arabians wanted them gone. Never mentioned that the US had armed and sent
Osama bin Laden to Afghanistan, to overthrow a secular government, and replace
it with an Islamic one. Even among the educated classes, everything that
happened in history disappeared, just some people came out of the blue and
decided to start bombing their cities.

~~~
acv20
How uneducated do _you_ have to be to equate ISIS with the Syrian people? Yes,
the bombings are taking place in Syria, but they are targeting ISIS, whose
fighters are in large parts non-Syrian foreigners (many of them from Europe).
This is one of the reasons that, of all the insurgent groups in Syria, ISIS
has the least support from the local population. From what we know right now,
most of the Paris attackers were not from Syria, many of them were born and
raised in Europe.

It's also not the case that people do not know the history. US support for Bin
Laden's faction against the soviets in Afhghanistan is well known. The same is
true for Saudi Arabia.

What is your point though, where's the connection to the current conflict?
What should the West do? Sit back and let ISIS take over more and more
uncontrolled territory?

~~~
oxide
Part of me, the naive, idealistic part, wonders what might happen if hell
froze over and the US and Russia quit playing proxy war and actually saw eye
to eye on crushing ISIS instead of just pretending while they tug of war over
Assad.

~~~
dragonwriter
I think the US and Russia _genuinely_ see eye-to-eye on crushing ISIS.

They _also_ are playing tug of war over Assad, which complicates cooperation
on that objective.

------
rdancer
I may be crazy, but it may have something to do with us waging a war on them.
What are they supposed to do, take the bombings sitting down, and never
retaliate?

~~~
iofj
What the Kurds ever did to provoke them ? The Yezidi ? The Shi'a ? The
Iranians ? Iraqi Christians ? Assyrians ? Alawites ? Druze ? The Lebanese ?
Even if I can sort-of understand that Israel, Turkey and Jordan did do a few
attacks, it did not justify the response at all.

~~~
rdancer
I'm just absolutely incredulous at the notion that we go into a war with a
fierce enemy, one with a penchant for terrorism, and then act like this came
out of a blue, and act as if this was unprovoked?

Where is our bravery, our stoicism, our humility?

What do you need to "justify" a military operation — surely the mere fact that
NATO and ISIS are at war is enough?

~~~
iofj
Doesn't seem to be reason enough for "us" to actively target civilians (no
despite the news, we do not target civilians randomly, there's just a lot of
mistakes - including stupid ones). Besides these are extremely empty words
from this organisation :
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1108548/Shocking...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1108548/Shocking-
video-shows-extent-execution-Iraq-ISIS.html)

Believing they have anything in mind other than conquest, rape and destruction
is nothing but foolishness. They are people without a future that satisfies
them who have been promised heaven. Nothing more, nothing less.

------
d--b
This conversation does not belong here...

------
UhUhUhUh
Direct, low-level answer: because it begins to lose on the ground. High-level
answer: because humiliated rage knows no bound.

------
ranjeethacker
Convert Muslim to Christian.

~~~
rdancer
Show the western intellectual tradition as superior. Once again become the
beacon of civil liberties, human rights, and democracy. Most importantly,
provide safe space for apostates.

------
NKCSS
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