
2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results - joaomoreno
https://stackoverflow.blog/2019/04/09/the-2019-stack-overflow-developer-survey-results-are-in/
======
andy_adams
Can someone help this old (2^5 years) developer out? I've worked with a number
of programming languages over the years, and have never found a combination
that brings me such joy and productivity as Ruby and Rails. However, I've
always felt that Python and Ruby were very similar in style & goal.

Can someone who is experienced in both Rails & Django explain why Python &
Django are trending up so quickly, while Ruby & Rails are ranking on the "most
dreaded" lists? I don't want this to become a holy war, I am just genuinely
curious what I'm overlooking.

~~~
tomca32
I also don't understand this. Even today, Rails is, by far, the most
productive environment that exists for developing a web application. I speak
this as someone who also wrote a ton of backends in Node.js, Java, and many
other languages (never tried Django though, so I don't know about that).
Almost all of those applications would have been 10% of the effort if they
were just Rails apps.

A sibling comment here mentioned that Rails' power came from other gems, but
that's not really true. Rails is still actively developed, and just Rails, by
itself, gives you more functionality out of the box than whole 1000+package
Node stacks.

~~~
sansnomme
Authn/Authz needs to be integrated into code already.

~~~
tomca32
That's a fair point. Devise is pretty much standard so it's easy, but you're
right that it would make more sense for it to be part of Rails to begin with.

------
strictnein
> "almost 70% of respondents say they are above average while less than 10%
> think they are below average. This is statistically unlikely with a sample
> of over 70,000 developers who answered this question, to put it mildly."

Not at all. It's a self selecting survey, the people who choose to answer are
likely more confident in their abilities than those that don't, and, contrary
to common understanding, it is perfectly valid for more than 50% of people to
be above average.

Average != median

~~~
wainstead
> It's a self selecting survey

I feel like I have to point this out every year, and it's one of the most
important things to keep in mind about this survey. A true survey would
randomly select developers from the global developer population at large.

~~~
ashton314
Indeed. I always wonder if programmers smarter than me don't go on SO as much
as I do and therefore don't participate in the survey. Maybe more people are
using Haskell than reported. :-P

~~~
wainstead
The age is skewed heavily to younger programmers, so your hunch has merit.

------
jedberg
> Do Developers Need to Become Managers to Make More Money?

50% said no. I think this is naive. We've had this discussion on HN before.
Companies pay lip service to the idea that they have parallel tracks for
management and engineering, but the reality of it is that it takes far more
success to move up the engineering ladder.

You can be one of the very best engineers in your company, or one of many
hundreds of senior managers, and make the same money. If you look at how many
people are at each salary level, the higher you go, the worse the ratio gets
of management to engineer.

If you want to get to the highest levels of the engineering ladder, you have
to be one of the most well known engineers in the world. Or be a VP. It's not
easy to be a VP, but there are far more VPs out there than Distinguished
Engineers.

~~~
scottbreyfogle
I think this is an example of developers taking questions quite literally: You
don't _need_ to become a manager, but many (myself included) would admit that
it does help.

You also might want to take into account the age and seniority of most
developers on the platform - for someone with <10 years of experience, it's
likely that you absolutely have an avenue to make more money without becoming
a manager.

~~~
jedberg
That is fair. For many of the young developers who responded to the survey,
they probably have a ways to go before they start hitting compensation walls.

------
umvi
> We asked respondents to evaluate their own competence, for the specific work
> they do and years of experience they have, and almost 70% of respondents say
> they are above average while less than 10% think they are below average.
> This is statistically unlikely with a sample of over 70,000 developers who
> answered this question, to put it mildly.

I'm torn here. It's hard to correct for bias. It would be like if a bank had a
survey and had people rate their financial stability - but they had to have an
account with the bank to participate in the survey. Wouldn't that bias the
results in favor of financially responsible people?

I'd be interested how many 0 rep new accounts with lots of downvotes claimed
high competence vs. established accounts. It could very well be that people
with SO accounts who are willing to take the time for SO's survey are the type
of people that are more competent on average than developers that don't have
SO accounts and don't participate in surveys.

~~~
hnarn
You have a point. It's not hard to imagine that actually using SO in the first
place might correlate to you being an above average developer (among all
developers).

~~~
Semaphor
While I neither disagree nor agree, I've heard people claim the opposite: That
people on SO are generally below average.

~~~
commandlinefan
Well, maybe the people asking questions are below and the people answering
them are above.

------
Pfhreak
I'm a non-binary manager who was formerly a non-binary engineer. I use
singular they.

I've had people go out of their way to make my professional life more
challenging or insulting. But it makes me happy to see nonbinary/nonconforming
identities addressed in this survey. Our experience of the tech world is very
different, and it's great to see some acknowledgment of that.

~~~
Dumblydorr
What is non binary? I haven't heard that before. Can you share some
experiences?

~~~
Pfhreak
Ok, this is a HIGHLY abbreviated overview that I'm sure other LGBTQ+ folks
would say doesn't get it exactly right:

If we decouple the idea of gender (societal expectations for men/women -- e.g.
boys like blue, girls like pink. Boys wear shorts, girls wear skirts.) from
the idea of sexual/genetic characteristics, then we can start to discuss what
it means to be a man vs what it means to be male.

Manliness and femininity are both spectrums -- you can imagine folks who are
real tough manly men and folks who are not. We call these two spectrums the
gender binary -- people typically fall into the manly spectrum somewhere, or
in the feminine spectrum somewhere.

Nonbinary folks feel excluded by those spectrums for one reason or another.
Nonbinary is an umbrella term that can include people who are agender (e.g. I
don't identify with any gender), genderfluid (e.g. sometimes I feel masculine,
sometimes feminine), genderqueer (e.g. I'm going to take the elements from
each spectrum I like and make my own thing), etc.

For a more concrete example, people like David Bowie are often held as icons
for the nonbinary community (again, not everyone agrees with me here). Eddie
Izzard also famously played with gender. Ruby Rose and Tilda Swinton identify
as genderfluid. There's a lot of different people under the broad umbrella of
nonbinary.

> Can you share some experiences?

I've been told, "Your pronouns don't matter". I've had my bathroom use policed
(I often feel uncomfortable in mens/womens restrooms and strongly prefer
gender neutral spaces). I've had coworkers ask, "So does that mean you fuck
men?" in a way that is clearly a set up to a joke.

Every day I make a conscious choice on my presentation (clothes, hair style,
etc.). I typically choose to present in a masculine way because it makes my
life easier, even though it's a presentation I am less happy with. There's a
surprising amount of cognitive load for me for something that's relatively
mindless for most people. Do I dress in a way that makes me happier, but
results in a lot more sideways glances (and possibly violence?) or do I dress
in a way that keeps me safer but less happy?

I understand that they/them pronoun use is not common, and I'm never upset
when I correct people, but some people have told me, point blank, "Your
pronouns are wrong and gross" or "I will use they/them, but you should know
I'm lying to your face when I do so."

These sorts of experiences are distractions from what I really want to do,
which is build awesome engineering teams and solve hard technical problems.
But they're unfortunately a reality of (at least) the software world in the US
and most likely in the broader workplace.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Couple of questions if I may.

Do you think you have a right to dictate others use of pronouns, or maybe that
they're wrong to use a pronoun that matches your sex (as it appears to them,
whether that's factual it counter-factual)?

I have a beard, and people always comment on it but I'd rather they not define
me by it (honestly, I'm not making this up) - it's hair that grows on me,
that's it - should I get to tell them they can't say I'm hairy/bearded
(despite that being obviously true)?

~~~
Pfhreak
I'll engage on this, assuming these questions were asked in good faith.

> should I get to tell them they can't say I'm hairy/bearded (despite that
> being obviously true)?

You can say, "I'd rather you not refer to me/define me by my beard." Do they
have to respect that? Of course not.

Does not respecting that mean that they are now knowingly violating a boundary
you've specifically asked them to respect? Yep. Sure does.

Does knowingly/deliberately violating someone's boundaries make you an
asshole? Maybe? Probably? At the very least it's likely to make that person
like you less.

> Do you think you have a right to dictate others use of pronouns?

I have the right to indicate that my pronouns are they/them, just as you can
(presumably) indicate yours are he/him. When people _deliberately_ violate
that (e.g., if people started calling you 'the bearded lady' or used she to
refer to you) I believe I am well within my right to feel disrespected, just
as if they had used any other verbal insult. I see it in a similar light to
nicknames. If my name was William, and I tell people to please call me
William, and someone continually refers to me as Billy despite being asked not
to, then I'm going to feel disrespected.

I get sir/he/him/his/etc all the time. When it's people I'm close to
(colleagues, friends, etc.) I'll gently offer a correction and move on. e.g.
"Sorry, my pronouns are they/them, please, continue." I don't bother
correcting the gas station attendant or the coffee shop barista.

I generally assume most times the wrong pronouns aren't coming from a place of
malice -- either someone just forgot or they don't know. I give people a lot
of latitude.

~~~
eigenspace
I don't really have anything to add here but I just wanted to say I appreciate
your tact and attitude.

Especially online, it's very easy to just assume bad faith when responding to
something like that, but I think the internet would be a much better place if
people were more likely to keep cool and stay civil even in the face of
comments which they suspect to be in bad faith.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
It seems impossible to ask questions on some subjects here (on HN, I don't
really use other mass fora); which makes it very hard to learn the scope of
someone's position. 'Assume good faith' has to be the basis of online
discussion -- I'm really not sure what's wrong with the questions.

>"in the face of comments which they suspect to be in bad faith" //

I asked two questions and avoided making comments (other than to set the basis
for the second question. People often don't appear to read questions as
questions.

It's like if someone said "So, do you just not like static typing?" and the
responders appear to think the person said "dynamic typing is crap and you're
crap if you like it" when in fact they're just interested in someone's
rationale for avoiding statically typed languages.

------
ChrisRR
As with every year, take these result with a massive pinch of salt. The
results are heavily weighted by students and young developers who are way more
likely to chase the latest trends and buzzwords

~~~
fj39dkf
The survey provides specific numbers on this, no need for the pinch of salt:
41% of respondents have fewer than 5 years of professional experience, and 68%
have fewer than 10.

A better question is whether or not this experience distribution is
representative of all software engineers. It almost certainly isn't, because
it's only surveying "people who respond to stack overflow surveys", but it's
hard to know how different it is.

All that said, there is no need for the quip about trends and buzzwords. Of
course younger developers are more interested in new technologies - they have
a whole future career they need to plan for. One might just as easily and
meanly say that old developers refuse to learn new things because they're just
going to retire in 10 years.

~~~
ChrisRR
I know they're stated, that's where I got the info from!

Unfortunately every year people start taking the results from these and
jumping to conclusions, like practically everyone is a full-stack, Node JS
developer who contributes to open source 7 days a week. We know that's not
true but it doesn't stop article after article every year claiming things like
that.

------
atonse
Kudos to the Visual Studio Code team for all its success.

VS Code and TypeScript, are kinds of technologies and tools that just win
entirely on their strong merit, in spite the image of who has created them.

.NET Core is getting up there too. MS has always been a developer friendly
company but they are definitely earning mindshare back from non .NET
developers.

~~~
strikelaserclaw
Microsoft seems to be killing it lately.

------
vturner
Curious about the salaries for the top four paying technology languages. Three
of the four for US are functional focused languages, and for global all four
are functional focused.

As someone learning Scala, this is both encouraging and interesting, and I'm
curious as to any explanation to the table result. Do functional programming
languages increase developer productivity so significantly that a single
developer can command such compensation? Do these languages attract highly
productive developers whom the market compensates for their productivity?
Something else?

~~~
mook
Alternative possibility (that I just made up on the spot): the people who get
to choose what language to work in, ignoring the popularity of the language
(and therefore how easy they are to replace) are already in very senior
positions. More junior people do not get the opportunity to work in functional
languages.

~~~
user5994461
It's half of that. On the chart "Salary and Experience by Language", people
doing functional languages have much more experience.

The other half is location. There are only few functional programming jobs,
highly skewed toward the big cities with higher salary and costs of living.

------
measure2xcut1x
As a solo indie developer running my own saas business for 20+ years now, and
rarely interacting with other devs, this survey is priceless. I often wonder
where I and my stack/tools are in relation to the rest of the field. This
report (even if it is biased or skewed) makes me feel like I'm not alone and
gives me some validation on my life path and technology choices.

~~~
astura
I wouldn't put any stake in this survey as any sort of representation of the
field in any way whatsoever. The people with SO accounts who even are even
aware that SO is conducting a survey is so self-selecting that its in zero way
any sort of representation of the industry as a whole.

For example, in SO's survey 80% of respondents say they code as a hobby. If
this survey was not self selecting I'd bet the farm that it would be the
reverse - 80% didn't code as a hobby.

~~~
saghm
Is "coding as a hobby" intended to be mutually exclusive with "coding
professionally"? If not, I don't think I'd be that surprised by the 80% number
even if it came from a source that everyone agreed was statistically
significant.

------
tuna-piano
I think the most interesting portion was the "Developer's perspectives by
gender".

When asked what one thing they would change about Stack Overflow:

Women used the following words more often (compared to men): condescending,
replies, nicer, rude, dumb, friendlier, assholes, thanks, confusing, knowing.

While men used the following words: simpler, huge, banned, angular, official,
complex, algorithm, expert, bounty, force.

[https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019?utm_source=so...](https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019?utm_source=so-
owned&utm_medium=blog&utm_campaign=dev-survey-2019&utm_content=launch-
blog#community-_-developers-perspectives-by-gender)

~~~
montieferg
fascinating

------
Dumblydorr
Can someone explain why rust is so beloved?

Also I work in R primarily, I find it funny that love and dread are both near
50%.

~~~
mmmeff
I just started working through a textbook to learn Rust, coming from a heavy
Typescript/Node background. It's too soon to say whether or not I'm in love
but I already really like the approach to lower level programming with modern
development perks like linting (RLS), package management (Cargo), simple build
scripts (Cargo again). Comparing it to NPM+Node, there's a lot to like.

I'm really looking forward to learning more.

~~~
Takizawa
Rust has an elegant concept in its ownership paradigm.

As the Rust book mentions: Ownership is Rust’s most unique feature, and it
enables Rust to make memory safety guarantees without needing a garbage
collector.

In other words, you have the power/speed of a low level language without
certain of the dangers, such as "double free" errors.

(That said, I'm only now proceeding through the official book. In other words,
if I got this wrong, someone correct me.)

------
mlthoughts2018
Bittersweet to see how much “distracting work environment” is reported to
reduce productivity, given that companies abjectly refuse to provide private &
quiet workspaces despite it being unequivocally cost effective to do so even
for most start-ups in dense urban centers.

I continue to find the discussion of salary disappointing though. The survey
provides a good opportunity for more detailed information.

~~~
umvi
I personally find non-private settings where you can easily collaborate with
other developers more productive.

When I am alone in an office, there is a higher temptation to waste time on
reddit/youtube and I am less likely to talk to other developers outside of IM
apps.

But when I'm in an open office/lab environment I find I'm more likely to stay
on task and also more likely to get unstuck on something thanks to close
proximity to other developers.

Everyone is different.

~~~
mlthoughts2018
You occupy such an extreme minority among knowledge workers that, as a matter
of default policy, your view has to be discounted in favor of privacy and
quiet conditions.

However, it’s easy enough for employers to provide both private & quiet
offices and separate areas for constant collaboration and ambient chatter,
allowing people to choose which type of area they want their primary workspace
to be located in.

~~~
umvi
> However, it’s easy enough for employers to provide both private & quiet
> offices and separate areas for constant collaboration and ambient chatter

To clarify: this is my situation. I have an office _and_ an open lab in which
to work. Usually I eat lunch in my office but find myself working in the lab
most of the day because of the perceived increased productivity

------
bad_good_guy
I actually found this to be the most interesting excerpt from the survey
results

>In the United States, almost 30% of respondents said they deal with a mental
health challenge, a higher proportion than other large countries such as the
UK, Canada, Germany, or India.

I would be interested to know just how much a higher proportion it was than
other countries.

------
kyoob
Odd that Perl isn't mentioned anywhere, good or bad, in these results. It's
usually at least in there among the Most Dreaded. Was it not listed as an
option this year?

~~~
kbenson
From the methodology section:

 _We used data from last year’s survey and trends in tags on Stack Overflow to
identify which technologies to include on the survey this year. We prioritized
popular and fast growing technologies, considering which smaller or shrinking
technologies we could remove this year._

So, I think it possibly wasn't listed as an option. Something to consider next
time one of these reports is cited as evidence for or against something, as
editorial discretion may or may not wildly change the meaning of the less
popular items. In this case it may have been the difference between an item
being included but lowly ranked and not included at all, which without
additional information implies it didn't rank enough to be shown, but I'm not
sure if that's the case or not (but I have my doubts that WebAssembly outranks
Perl).

------
iLemming
Clojure did it again. Most paid language.

~~~
ilikehurdles
And pretty well loved too!

Now if only we could figure out how to get it up from the bottom of “most
wanted” language.

------
chillee
VSCode has seriously dominated these lists since its release in 2016.

Overall:

2016: 7.2%

2017: N/A

2018: 34.9%

2019: 50.7%

Web: 2016: Unranked

2017: 24.0%

2018: 38.7%

2019: 55.6%

Mobile:

2017: N/A

2018: 36.6%

2019: 53.8%

Sysadmin/Devops:

2017: 22.4%

2018: 36.5%

2019: 55.2%

Of particular note, in 2019, VSCode is actually _more_ popular than Vim among
sysadmin/devops, and is a mere 0.4% less popular than Android Studio among
mobile developers.

It seems like it's mostly been gobbling market from its competitors: Sublime
Text (peak of 31.0% in 2016 down to 23.4% in 2019) and Atom (peak of 20.0% in
Web in 2017 down to 12.7% in 2019), although its possible their decline is
circumstantial.

------
geodel
So Scala is among most dreaded right below Java at 41.7%. Considering in
popularity it's quite low at 3.8%, it seem surprising to me.

~~~
commandlinefan
I'm glad to see it isn't just me.

------
the_arun
When we say percentage - the numbers are not adding up to 100. How are we
supposed to read this report?

~~~
trymas
Multi answer questions in the survey may explain that?

~~~
the_arun
I see. One way of calculating % in multiple choice is ((total No. of C
likers)/ total count of answers) * 100 to get % of popularity of C.

~~~
fxfan
You can just add all the percentages and divide by that number and you'll get
the number you're talking about.

------
Abishek_Muthian
Gone are the days when developers defined their job as 'X-programmer'(X being
the language) or at-least in India as platform e.g Java platform.

Companies have realised that programming languages are like 'drill bit in a
tool box', one needs to use the best bit for the job.

~~~
purity_resigns
The only folks I ever here say "the right tool for the job" are Java devs. /s

In all seriousness, people using non-mainstream languages are very attached to
them. At least in my sample size of one.

------
b3b0p
Regarding the most dreaded languages, 3 (C, Objective-C, Assembly) of the top
4 probably my favorites actually. I find working with and developing in C
(Objective-C in iOS/macOS) and doing assembly the most fun I have had and look
forward to. Maybe it's because right now I only do it for hobby.

What makes it the most dreaded? My only guess is having to maintain legacy
code that's hard to understand or poorly written or another valid reason. I'd
love to get into an embedded C / assembly role. I got pulled into web
development early on, but I had a friend who was stubborn and held out and
ended up coding games for casinos in C/C++ in Linux and SDL. I'm so jealous.

------
ivm
Top highlights:

 _> 11% of our respondents said they didn't want to communicate with their
fellow human beings via either method_ [face-to-face conversations or online
chat]

and

 _> The aspects of Stack Overflow that respondents would like to change
exhibit differences across demographic groups. For example, developers who are
men are more likely to want change in official site rules (from the algorithms
behind them to how they are enforced), while developers who are women are more
likely to want to change norms for communication on our site._

The top words used by women to describe SO's problems include "condescending",
"rude", "assholes".

------
codeforester
Is anyone surprised seeing Bash/shell scripting being so popular? In my
experience, I have seen very few people taking Bash scripting seriously. And
it is frowned upon in tech interviews.

~~~
davemp
Shell scripting just comes with the turf wrt Linux. Even just editing your
`.bashrc` can technically be considered scripting. Elsewhere in the survey
~50% of devs claimed to used Linux, so it doesn't seem unreasonable.

------
claudiulodro
Interesting that WordPress is the most dreaded tech every single year for the
last 3+ years, yet WP "market share" is increasing every single year (it's now
powering 1/3 of the web). Is it a disconnect between developers and non-
developers? Is it just that developers don't like to work on "boring" tech,
and working on WP is not a super-great resume builder? Curious to hear what
people think.

~~~
user5994461
Wordpress sites are easily done without any development work. There are many
platforms providing ready to use wordpress sites, with nice themes and common
needs covered. It is not targeted toward developers at all.

Comparing wordpress and developers, is a bit like comparing how many people
like tyres (everybody got some on their car) to how many people enjoy making
tyres for a living (not a very common activity).

~~~
claudiulodro
That makes sense. Good analogy!

------
SomethingStars
Where is Salesforce? It was consistently ranking high on "Dreaded" platforms
but seems to be gone altogether this year.

------
thomzi12
That's really interesting to see more Latinx developers (7.3%) than East Asian
developers (5.3%) as a proportion of all professional developers. It's an
awesome surprise, but is there a measurement reason for this? Unfortunately,
this doesn't match my experience working in tech in the Bay.

------
longstation
Just curious, for the salary section, could someone explain why the salary for
frontend role is lower the full stack role which is then lower than the
backend role?

I personally really like doing front end (Vue/React etc) work but when I saw
this salary gap, I feel like that I need to reconsider my career path.

~~~
binarytox1n
This is likely because more front end developers are younger/less experienced.
While more expensive/older developers prefer backend work and are compensated
more highly because of their experience.

~~~
longstation
Is there any reason older/more senior developer prefers backend than full
stack or front end?

~~~
brianpgordon
My gueses:

* Frontend engineering is a newer discipline than backend engineering.

* Frontend engineering is the first thing you run into as a kid. You interact with technology through the web browser. I learned HTML 4 when I was 11 because I wanted to make web pages. It wasn't until much later that I moved to backend engineering. It's just not as visible.

------
insomniacity
Can anyone enlighten me as to why Heroku is the number 3 most dreaded platform
(behind Wordpress and IBM Cloud/Watson)?

From my hobbyist exposure it's pretty awesome. I understand it's expensive for
production... but why do people dread working on it?

~~~
fgonzag
I would guess in absolute terms it must be dreaded by a lot of people simply
because of it's extremely large user base. Any product is bound to rub someone
the wrong way.

~~~
insomniacity
Fair point, but it's not an absolute figure.

 _% of developers who are developing with the language or technology but have
not expressed interest in continuing to do so_

Heroku 47.3%

------
maze-le
Wow, jQuery is still one of the most popular web frameworks. That was
unexpected...

~~~
losthobbies
It’s also one of the most dreaded?!

~~~
Izkata
It has a reputation for spaghetti code. Just as it's the simplest to reach
for, it's the simplest to hack something together with, with no thought to
overall structure.

------
headalgorithm
See
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19614674](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19614674)
for more discussion

------
ksec
1\. I don't quite understand why people _love_ Rust. I have nothing against it
but I just don't quite _get_ why the _love_. I viewed it as Modern C++ with
Memory Management done right from Engineering perspective and elegant syntax
with package management done right from the beginning. And may be just my
circle or reading list, many Rubyist jumped to Rust, and more often after
trying a few times and clicked, they felt in _love_ with it.

2\. Ruby = Rails. ~8.5% of Ruby Developers and there are 8.2% of Rails
Developers.

3\. Ruby / Rails are for many years split in love and dreaded languages and
framework. ~50% on both side. I don't see any other languages and framework
has similar pattern.

4\. There are more Django / Laravel developers than Ruby Rails.

5\. ~60% of Developers are on Windows. That was obvious right? And yet Ruby /
Rails Community has ignore the Windows as a development platform for years.
[1] My guess it is the lack of resources.

6\. Speaking of Resources, Ruby is the top programming language that is
surviving without a Major Cooperation ( Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Google,
Apple ) backing.

7\. Ruby 's Median salary, comparatively speaking is trending on the higher
side. And also one of the highest with respective of lower years of
experience. That is both good and bad. Developers get higher salary, but less
company are willing to choose it for cost reason.

8\. Am I correct to assume those Salaries exclude any Stock grant? Which is
common in US?

9\. Visual Studio Code really is taking over, and there are more performance
improvement coming. [2] I wonder if they would consider moving to WASM in the
future.

10\. Financial and banking - 8.9%, are the third in respondent's industry. I
am a little surprise how many people are working in that field.

11\. 60% of them prefer to work in office . THAT is great to hear. Not every
one likes working from home or Remote. May be those who prefer to work from
home are just very vocal about it.

12\. And it is for that reason 80% of them prefer to have a Face to Face
conversation. As easy as it is to type, write, calling or even Video
conference, I still believe there is something when two people sit together
and communicate. There is something that goes far beyond words coming out.

[1] [https://samsaffron.com/archive/2019/03/31/why-i-stuck-
with-w...](https://samsaffron.com/archive/2019/03/31/why-i-stuck-with-windows-
for-6-years-while-developing-discourse)

[2]
[https://twitter.com/kaimaetzel/status/1114908539342864384?s=...](https://twitter.com/kaimaetzel/status/1114908539342864384?s=20)

~~~
adventured
> 8\. Am I correct to assume those Salaries exclude any Stock grant? Which is
> common in US?

The listed salaries should exclude stock options, healthcare, 401k matching,
et al. It would be very unusual to have a compensation component in a survey
of this sort and include those items.

> 10\. Financial and banking - 8.9%, are the third in respondent's industry. I
> am a little surprise how many people are working in that field.

It's actively being trimmed down these days[1], however consider someone like
Goldman Sachs: 36,000 employees with about $36 billion in sales. A sizable
employee base for their sales; $1m in sales per employee isn't too bloated of
course. Citigroup has $65b in sales, with 200,000 employees, $307k per
employee. JP Morgan does $104b in sales with 256,000 employees, $406k per
employee. I wouldn't be surprised if the banker to tech employee ratio
increases persistently (in favor of tech workers) at financial firms for the
next two decades or so.

Visa is king at being slim however. It recently became worth more ($346
billion market cap) than any bank around the world, including all the US
majors. $20b in sales, $10b in profit, with just 17,000 employees (the profit
to employee ratio is particularly wild). Facebook approximately matches Visa
on the profit to employee ratio (slight advantage).

[1]
[https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-09/societ...](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-09/societe-
generale-job-cuts-a-warning-to-all-europe-s-bankers)

~~~
mxschumacher
is revenue really a good way to understand the size of banks?

------
SolaceQuantum
_" Men are more likely to say that being tasked with non-development work is a
problem for them, while gender minority respondents are more likely to say
that toxic work environments are a problem."_

Interesting. Isn't the former a subset of the latter?

~~~
Pfhreak
non-development work is a subset of toxic work environments?

No. I don't think so. Depends on how you identify development work. Is
documentation, test-writing, requirements gathering, planning, backlog
grooming, educating, or advocating considered non-development work? (I think
all that stuff pretty clearly falls under the purview of 'developer', but I've
gotten a lot of feedback from folks over the years who think it's not.)

Toxic work environment can include things like sexual harassment, micro and
macro aggressions, offensive language (I had a manager for a while who called
his reports 'motherfuckers), etc. I wouldn't normally consider non-development
work to be 'toxic' in the same way I'd consider, say, working with someone who
consistently talks down to women and minorities.

~~~
ThorinJacobs
To add onto your comment - I'd also consider a work environment that
automatically assigns the documentation, test-writing, etc. to a gender
minority (or other minority) to be toxic.

