
Apple unveils biggest update to Logic since the launch of Logic Pro X - todsacerdoti
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/05/apple-unveils-biggest-update-to-logic-since-the-launch-of-logic-pro-x/
======
jasode
I own Apple Logic and thus I'm grateful for the continuous updates. On the
other hand, I'm mystified why Apple continues its investment in this audio
program.

Yes, when Steve Jobs bought Logic from Emagic in 2002, it made strategic sense
to fortify Apple's "software portfolio" to make Mac hardware more attractive.
But that was before the surprising massive success of iPhones in 2007. Now, it
seems like sales of Logic would be a insignificant rounding error in Apple's
revenue. If Mac software portfolio was that big a deal, I'm not sure why they
discontinued Aperture instead of Logic. It seems like there's a bigger market
of customers that would catalog and modify photos rather than record music.

Intuit sold off Quicken to a private equity firm and yet Apple continues to
own and develop Logic. I like Apple's stewardship of Logic but I can't
understand its strategic value to today's Apple.

Anybody have any thoughts on what Logic does for Apple that Aperture didn't?

EDIT to several replies about "enhancing brand image": That's plausible but
AVID Pro Tools is even more prestigious than Logic and AVID's market cap is
only $250 million[0]. Apple could acquire AVID easily with their ~$200 billion
cash on hand to _" strengthen Apple's brand among the professionals"_. People
have been speculating this possible acquisition for years but I don't think it
will happen. So not sure what Logic does for Apple that AVID Pro Tools
doesn't.

[0] [https://www.nasdaq.com/market-
activity/stocks/avid](https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/avid)

~~~
crazygringo
To be more specific, and in response to your reply:

Together with Final Cut Pro, Apple wants to have _Mac-only exclusive software_
that is aimed _specifically at cool creative professionals_ to build up the
image that trendy creatives use Macs (and you therefore have _no choice_ but
to use a Mac, otherwise you won't have the software you need).

Aperture couldn't really compete with Adobe's whole workflow (since Apple
didn't have a full-fledged Photoshop competitor). But also, movies and music
are "sexier" in a way.

AVID Pro Tools works on Windows so it doesn't do anything for Apple. The whole
point is awesome software that works _only_ on Macs.

The day that every single program creatives use runs as Windows as well as
Macs, is the day it becomes a lot harder for a lot of people to justify buying
a Mac. It's that simple.

(So it's certainly not about any profit from the software _directly_ , and
it's also not _just_ a marketing "halo".)

~~~
jasode
_> But yeah, AVID Pro Tools works on Windows so it doesn't do anything for
Apple. _

Before Apple bought it, Emagic's Logic ran on _both_ Windows and Mac. After
Apple acquired Logic, they immediately discontinued the Windows version. Can't
Apple hypothetically run the same playbook and discontinue Pro Tools for
Windows?

~~~
crazygringo
Oh wow, I didn't know that.

I mean, that seems like a pretty shitty thing to do to an existing userbase.

I guess they could, but risk generating a lot of ill will. I'm curious how
discontinuing Logic was received. Seems very risky.

~~~
djaychela
Music Tech teacher here... when it was discontinued, I was working (part time)
in a couple of schools who used Logic on PCs, as well as working for a few
people who used it in their own studios.

In the case of one of the schools and a number of the clients, I was the one
who broke the news to them - generally greeted by disbelief initially, and
then once they had checked up on it, absolute fury. If the intention was to
get people to buy Macs so they could keep running Logic, in most cases it
backfired spectacularly, and made life-long Apple enemies of those users -
many of which either stuck with their old version of Logic for a number of
years, or who jumped ship to Cubase (in the case of the schools, software cost
would have been dwarfed by hardware cost when you have labs of 30+ computers,
let alone trying to persuade a Windows-oriented ICT department to support Macs
in any way, shape or form).

~~~
dfee
Tough (sincerely), and congrats on finding a gig that rewards you daily with
passion and enthusiasm.

But at the same time, I have little sympathy for people who hate Apple for a
move like this - regardless of the optics and whether it was intentional.

No one has to use a Mac, but frankly, there’s a reason why the creative crowd
does. And, it’s beyond just brand image. They have a clear and complete vision
for their software (which yes, breaks at the edges), but overall provides the
best foundation for the markets they cater to.

Apple doesn’t want to be hamstrung by people running Windows on shoddy devices
for premium software and thus exited that market. They also don’t want to make
software for shoddy Android devices, so are conservative where they do.

It’s not an attack on users, but a refocus on the golden path.

~~~
saagarjha
Apple buying a company and axing their products for other platforms is all too
common and has nothing to do with "people running Windows on shoddy devices".
They kill all the projects for other platforms, strengthen theirs, and hurt
users in the process. It's that simple.

~~~
wlesieutre
More recently, Dark Sky is in the process of being killed for Android

------
blub
Even at triple the price Logic would be a compelling product. Feature by
feature it's an incredible piece of software, coming with a series of great
instruments, effect and tons of loops. Feature-wise it covers more or less
everything you'd need.

However after trying Ableton for a few weeks (they offer a 90 day trial + 30%
discount) I recently switched from Logic and I find the Ableton interface and
UX in general much more intuitive for electronic music. In Logic I always had
the feeling that there's too much choice and couldn't really get into a flow.

Looking at these screenshots the new features probably sound great and look
good but there's simply too much happening on the screen. Honestly Ableton's
been a breath of fresh air for me.

~~~
pelagic_sky
I switched from Logic to Ableton recently and now I love Ableton's workflow. I
just downloaded the Logic update, and while there are new things, it feels
like the same old Logic that I just couldn't get into. I'll be sticking with
Ableton.

~~~
panpanna
You are not alone.

I follow a youtube show where producers talk about their mixes and 90% use
abelton live.

~~~
gketuma
Do you mind sharing that channel. Trying to up my Ableton Live game. Thanks

~~~
panpanna
Andrew Huang (?) - Four producers, one sample

~~~
greg7gkb
Correct. His channel is here:
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdcemy56JtVTrsFIOoqvV8g](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdcemy56JtVTrsFIOoqvV8g)

------
salimmadjd
MusicTechHelpGuy on Youtube has summarized all the updates.

If you're new to Logic really recommend his YT channel he has one of the most
complete Logic training out there and it's all for free. His videos are a
great place to start for Logic beginners

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-150Nxem5g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-150Nxem5g)

------
nchase
I'm surprised to see so few (zero?) comments specifically about the content of
the update. This is an _amazing_ release from a user's perspective.

I'm a Logic user who creates modern sample-based music at a pretty rapid clip.
The Quick Sampler here is pretty much perfect and it's what anyone would
expect in 2020 – a tremendous replacement for EXS24.

This was a long time coming and (IMO) makes Logic almost a no-brainer for a
lot of people who make music.

~~~
sheinsheish
After you hang around a bit more here, you won't be surprised anymore. Guys at
HN have a specific way of destroying any good news or ideas...

------
sarreph
I am incredibly excited to see (from the release notes[0]) that they've
finally added support for Novation Launchpad controllers. As much as I love
Logic as my main DAW, a lack of Launchpad / Launchkey support meant I often
had to lean on Ableton to do live "jams". Not sure how well Live Loops will
stack up against the tried-and-tested Ableton Live, but it's a big step in the
right direction.

[0] - [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203718](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT203718)

~~~
nonsapreiche
My novation lauchkey 49 works perfectly with logic 10.2 (control
surfaces->setup->new->mackie design HUI and then select the input/output port
to your lauchkey)

~~~
sarreph
Sorry should've clarified. You're right that it works as a keyboard controller
(w/ sliders and knobs) but I never found a way to make the pads useful (at
least not in the way they so seamlessly integrate with Ableton). To be honest
though, I always felt that mapping assignments to the Launchkey in Logic was
quite clunky UX, hopefully this has improved a bit in this update.

~~~
nonsapreiche
I mapped the pad to the keyboard shortcuts, very useful to change the patch
plugins ([] on keyboard) or to the utrabeat machine to play samples, not quite
like ableton but you kown... logic was not for live performance and I hope it
will never be.

------
buildbuildbuild
As a musician, this is no doubt an exciting release. It’s good to see
integration with Voice Recorder.

Now Apple, please update your Music Memos app which is rated 3.5 on the App
Store, and is holding over 1,000 of my ideas hostage to sync issues.

A stagnant app on your own platform is a broken promise to your users.

------
SloopJon
The first two things I looked for are the price (free upgrade):

"Logic Pro X 10.5 is available today as a free update for all existing users,
and is available on the Mac App Store for $199.99 (US) for new customers."

... and the system requirements (doesn't require Catalina):

"macOS 10.14.6 or later"

~~~
lux
That second one is super important for any of us stuck with 32-bit plugins
that haven't gotten updates!

------
monkeyfacebag
Relative to the competition, Logic is an incredible value. I am an Ableton
Live user, but Logic, an arguably superior product, is available for a
fraction of the cost of Live Studio. I have my fingers crossed that Ableton
can catch up on some of Logic's features (flex pitch comes to mind).

~~~
blub
Agreed, but Logic's heavily subsidized by Apple. There's no way a DAW could
cost so little, especially considering the plugins and instruments it comes
with out of the box.

Still the UX is cluttered and the shortcuts obscure, I find Ableton much
cleaner.

~~~
panpanna
I wonder what the competition think about this.

It can't be easy for abelton and Steinway to compete with the richest company
in the world.

~~~
khazhoux
Steinberg

------
cageface
So Apple is basically copying features Ableton Live has had for years here,
then dumping this product on the market at an unsustainably cheap price that
none of their competitors can match and stay in business.

If you care about the health of the music software industry spend your money
on Ableton Live or Bitwig instead of this.

~~~
filleduchaos
I don't quite see how it's an unsustainably cheap price that none of their
competitors can match, considering that the implicit price of Logic includes
$1000+ hardware to run macOS on.

~~~
cageface
Because you'd also have to pay that $1000 hardware cost to run any other DAW.
Apple laptops aren't that much more than PC laptops with comparable specs
anymore.

~~~
cma
They have no laptop options that don't have soldered in ram and CPU and
proprietary SSDs that cost 2-4X per gigabyte to upgrade. You end up with
dongles and external drives, and Logic used to go out of its way to make that
hard to manage (it has gotten better within the last year or two).

~~~
cageface
Are there any PC laptops you recommend for music production? I'd like this
Macbook I'm typing on now to be my last.

------
kitotik
Very cool that the Logic Remote apps can actually be used for triggering
sounds and performance now with the Live Loops as opposed to only being useful
for mixing / engineering.

I despise having computers in front of me when in the zone, but somehow iPads
and iPhones don’t bother me. This allows setting up in a different room and
going to town.

~~~
dham
I recently switched to more hardware based setup, because I just lost
creativity on the computer and needed a switch up. I still use a DAW to record
audio/midi from hardware to mix and master. But other than that all recording
happens on hardware. Something about the computer doesn't really do it for me
anymore when I stare at it all day programming. I'm liking hardware, I'm
currently using Roland Fantom and the archaic sequencing and certain limits
really inspire me. I can sit in front of that thing for hours.

------
jaredcwhite
Logic has been an amazing and deep app for decades, but it's been lagging in
recent years with regard to hardcore electronic music production and live
performance. _This_ is the update that turns that all around. Live Loops alone
would comprise a solid upgrade, and that's just one of the many new marquee
features. It's also bananas that existing Logic users can get everything new
for freeeeeeee!

Sure, this whole release is small potatoes in the larger world of Apple, but
for a long-time Logic user like me, today's Christmas. :)

------
bbx
Having used Logic (on and off) for almost a decade, and Ableton for more than
that, I recently decided to stop using Logic. I know both softwares pretty
well (I read both manuals) but in the end, having 2 DAWs is useless.

I think overall, Logic has mostly an audience of "hardware" people. As in:
musicians who compose and record with hardware, and then mix in Logic. From
the top of my head, Calvin Harris and Disclosure use Logic, mostly for putting
together recorded audio and mixing, but not really for writing. Also,
professional mixers who are used to massive mixing consoles use either Logic,
Pro Tools or Cubase. Adele's "Hello" was mixed in Logic. These 3 DAWs have a
lot of similarities. One of them is their "skeuomorphic" interface. Why do
digital faders look like the real ones? There's no need to. Alos, the
arrangement-only view. Or the plugin inserts and bus/aux channeling. But I
think all of this emphasizes the need to satisfy the "hardware" audience, who
want to have the digital equivalent of their hardware interface.

Ableton on the other hand (and Fruity Loops for that matter) didn't look at
the hardware. They created an interface for the digital age. That's why faders
are just colored bars. Session view? Genius. Very intuitive. Instrument racks
to regroup plugins? Straightforward. You want to do parallel processing? No
need for a bus or aux track: just create a second chain in your instrument
rack and you've got your parallel processing done. It literally takes 3 clicks
to go from a plugin insert to parallel processing. Color-tagging your samples
and plugins? Yep. Compare that to Logic where loading a plugin requires you to
navigate from dropdown upon dropdown. You can't even group inserts to disable
them all at once.

Now I used to go with Logic for my mixing and mastering purposes. Having 2
separate DAWs allowed me to separate the creative from the "engineering"
process of mixing. Logic also has great comping features, a nice "flex" mode,
a better quantization tool, and nice built-in plugins. Also, the slower
workflow felt better for mixing. But now I just do everything in Ableton.

With this update, Logic is going into Ableton territory. Sampler-> Sampler.
Quick Sampler->Simpler. Step Sequencer->Session View. But I don't think that
adding a few features on top of an outdated workflow will turn me away from
Ableton.

It's weird that they're going into that direction because I always felt that
there was a clear distinction between Ableton and Logic, and that the lack of
crucial Ableton features (like the aforementioned comping) was to not annoy
the Logic developers. But now I guess it's open season?

~~~
maroonblazer
>It's weird that they're going into that direction...

I think it's a reflection of the fact that there are (at least) two different
kinds of ways to make music:

1\. the "traditional" way of recording individual instruments in a more or
less linear fashion

2\. curating/compiling pieces of pre-recorded audio, aka samples, and
triggering a sequence of them on-the-fly, while recording that sequence.

Each calls for a different set of tools and workflow. Logic's roots are in the
former but Ableton tapped into the latter. Logic is trying to appeal to both.

------
qmmmur
I'm glad for all the logic users and students I have. If you want to get
serious about making music I'd urge you to check out REAPER.

~~~
fit2rule
REAPER has a great workflow. Its like the vim of DAW.

~~~
kristiandupont
I read the GP comment and I was about to downvote. Then I read your comment
and sat up in my chair.

I use Ableton and I also play with Logic, FL and the occasional tracker. I
would _love_ to know what you mean with "the vim of DAW" and perhaps if there
is a video or text that describes it?

~~~
fit2rule
Great hotkeys for everything .. just install it and give it a try. '?' key is
your friend - from this you will learn the ways of the REAPER ... ;)

For tutorials: you _need_ to get some Kenny Gioia in your viewing time. It
will make the power of REAPER so much more clear:

[http://www.kennymania.com/reaper-videos/](http://www.kennymania.com/reaper-
videos/)

------
dangoor
It seems odd to me that there are no videos accompanying this press release,
and there also don't appear to be any videos in the Mac app store. It seems
like video (with audio!) would be a much better way to show off what this new
version can do.

~~~
bredren
Your comment reminds me of the last time they tried to show off audio
production using the all new Touchbar in 2016:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO-t2TTIdPE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO-t2TTIdPE)

~~~
gtm1260
Hah! Thats pretty wild, but I wish I could have some apps that use the touch
bar like that. It seems so worthless now because I only really use it as a
bunch of buttons. But if I used just one app that had that rich multi-touch
input, it would be so fun I think.

I imagine its one where the vision of the product and what developers actually
came up with never really aligned prroperly.

~~~
grisenboll
Lol! I think the best scenario I have experienced with the touchbar is when
using Windows-products through Parallells.

Wich is insane considering the possibilities.

I want to never see my dock on the desktop again, and have it on the touchbar.
That was almost possible with the other replyers suggestion but still not
perfect.

------
grisenboll
I think one reason that is ofter overlooked, that I didn't even knew was a
thing until later than I should, is that out of the box, a beginner can still
play around with stuff on Mac after just plugging in his midi-keyboard.
Through after locating and plugging in at least one dongle. Professionals will
have an external audio interface. Try to do the same thing on windows, and it
will be practically impossible to do anything without an external audio
interface.

I'm not an expert but as I understand it, it's because of CoreAudio allowing
direct routing of midi (and/or/xor?) audio through the system, while in
windows, without an external interface, everything has to pass some sort of
queue, adding a simply unusable latency out of the box.

This might have caused the "myth" that Apple is better for audio production.

------
boromi
I'd still use Reaper

~~~
musicale
There really is an embarrassment of wealth in terms of DAWs these days.

At the low end, Reaper, Cakewalk, GarageBand (not to mention Cubasis and Auria
on the iPad), FL Studio, Reason Essentials, Bitwig 16-track et al. give you
amazing capabilities for very little (sometimes no) money.

There is also an amazing wealth of great cheap or free instrument and effect
plugins.

------
keyle
Is this for catalina only? The irony is that most musicians are held back from
Catalina and even older OS X because compatibility issues. E.g. no 32bit apps
in Catalina kills a lot of VST and VSTi that many of us need. So No Catalina,
No Logic Pro X.

~~~
thewebcount
Nope. From the release notes the system requirements are 10.14.6 or later, so
Mojave.

------
musicale
I like the Ableton-style clip view and the step sequencer.

Apple is also offering a 90 day trial of Logic (as well as Final Cut Pro)
during the pandemic.

------
throw_this_one
Eric Prydz uses Logic

~~~
briandear
Above and Beyond use it, Gabriel and Dresden, Armin van Buuren, Ferry
Corsten.. A ton of famous names in the electronic music world use it. Many use
Ableton and Logic together.

~~~
musicale
Oh yeah, I remember seeing logic in several videos.

Maybe Trance music is the killer app for Logic or vice-versa. ;-)

------
adamnemecek
The problem with Logic and other DAWs is that they focus too much on sampling
and beat making and not enough of tonality.

I'm launching an IDE for MIDI soon [http://ngrid.io](http://ngrid.io).

~~~
ubercow13
Isn't Cubase supposed to be more focused towards composition, sequencing,
tonality

~~~
adamnemecek
Cubase sucks a stiff one.

