
Arcade City: Decentralized, Blockchain-Based Answer to Uber - prostoalex
http://cointelegraph.com/news/116100/arcade-city-decentralized-blockchain-based-answer-to-uber
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droopybuns
This feels like an entertaining distraction by someone who massively
underestimates their need to provide support to both drivers and customers.

Uber's GPS mapping soloution doesn't work as magically as it needs to. Things
change pretty quickly there. I don't think this could succeed without
traditional support infrastructure.

Also, block chain updates over mobile? What is the data plan of those drivers
going to look like?

~~~
zekevermillion
Assuming that it is even necessary to use ethereum for a distributed uber -- I
see no need for the driver to maintain a copy of the blockchain, and certainly
not in the vehicle. Groups of drivers who trust each other IRL could, for
example, cooperate to finance a single full node and then make calls to that
service to verify payment.

Presumably, drivers could also use third-party mapping software / services,
dispatchers, whatever aspects of the biz are not handled by the decentralized
protocol.

~~~
mostly_harmless
so now drivers need to host their own cryptocurrency pool?

~~~
zekevermillion
What is a cryptocurrency pool? Are you thinking of a mining pool? No, there
would be no need for that. Why would a taxi driver need to mine bitcoin?

Let's ignore that taxi drivers could avoid using any cryptocurrency. It's
possible to have the ride hailing and rating systems done without bitcoin.

If we assume that bitcoin or a clone is the right network to use for the
dispatch and ratings systems, then someone the taxi driver trusts has to run
wallet software to verify that transactions are valid. It might be a good idea
for them to have their own node for certain functions as well.

Wallet and node software could be run very cheaply in the taxi driver's home,
or even in a project shared between drivers. So the objection about mobile
bandwidth is easily overcome.

------
rayiner
Ironically, the driving force behind Uber's popularity is its centralization
and uniformity. Uber replaces the hodge-podge of thousands of different taxi
operators with a single company that offers a single app with a single billing
system everywhere in the country, while holding drivers to strict vehicle and
service standards.

~~~
bobajeff
I don't know if that's the reason for uber's popularity. I think it, along
with other ridesharing sites, are just another option in addition to taxi, car
rentals and public transportation.

~~~
ssharp
I wouldn't discount OP's comment at all. It's the main reason I use Uber. I
couldn't care less about it's service vs. taxi's, or ridesharing, or most
other things. The things I like about it are:

1) I have a single app that I can request a car in mere seconds in just about
every major city

2) Payments are handled automatically

That's it. And #2 is an added bonus. #1 is the killer feature for me. I don't
have to stand around trying to hail a cab, nor do I have look up a cab
company's number to call a car and hope they have one available within a
reasonable timeframe.

~~~
bobajeff
I'm not discounting it; just treating it as conjecture.

I myself think it's important to look around at different options when looking
for transportation and lodging.

~~~
tptacek
This is a little like "conjecturing" about the reason people liked iPods more
than CD Walkmen. Even in places with very good cab service (NYC and Chicago),
cabs are a fucking pain to work with, and Uber is incredibly simple to work
with.

~~~
bobajeff
It's more like conjecturing about the reason people go to IHOP over a fancy
restaurant.

I'm sure people's reasons are more complex and vary from time to time.

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azinman2
Uhhh what? Blockchain blockchain blockchain! And uber!

How in the world are these connected. He's presenting it like its this obvious
thing that needs to be connected when it's not clear at all why any blockchain
needs to be involved.

~~~
colordrops
Why is there always a highly up-voted comment in every thread that expresses
befuddlement at the utility of the blockchain? I thought HN was all about
forward thinking and experimental ideas, instead of throwing up hands in
ignorance.

Admittedly, the article is light on technical details, but if you understand
how blockchain technology works, you could easily deduce that a likely use
case for this would be a service for connecting drivers to passengers without
a middleman and without the regulatory burden that often prevents these
services from proliferating in certain markets. A more fleshed out general
case of a decentralized marketplace is OpenBazaar, which creates a marketplace
with no middleman that can't be taken down.

There is no reason a blockchain based app couldn't be implemented. Whether
this guy is actually on the right path or not is hard to say based on the
article.

~~~
yid
> There is no reason a blockchain based app couldn't be implemented.

I don't think anyone is doubting this bit. It's the overwhelming current trend
of forcing everything onto the blockchain, whether it improves the application
or not. The interesting questions (frequently not answered) revolve around
_why_ one should do this.

~~~
hughw
To me, the supposed benefit of using blockchain was so obvious as not to
require stating: Removal of any central authority over connecting customers to
service providers. And you might not want Uber tracking your travels, for
example.

There are good arguments for centralization, too. Not saying the blockchain
argument win out. Just saying, the benefits are the same as for every other
blockchain application, and well understood.

~~~
duskwuff
> And you might not want Uber tracking your travels, for example.

Surely a blockchain would only change that to _anybody_ being able to track
your travels, though?

~~~
colordrops
The whole system wouldn't have to sit on the blockchain - only the parts that
are needed to put out a request. The only part that would need some thought is
the initial location. One option would be to put out a general location,
within 10 miles, then only give exact location to those who request it and
have a proven record of being good drivers. That's another problem as well -
how do you create a ratings system on the blockchain that can't be
manipulated? Perhaps a page-rank style algorithm could do that.

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trvlngwlbry
Building out both sides of a two-sided market is extremely hard. While this
decentralized system might be appealing to drivers, Uber and Lyft have created
such a great experience for riders, that I don't see a compelling reason for
riders to move to this system -- even if moving to this system is as easy as
downloading Arcade City. And without the riders, the drivers won't give it
very long. That said, chicken-and-egg scenarios exist in every industry, and
get hurdled all the time, so I'll be interested to watch how it goes for this
one.

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jedberg
I'm not entire sure many of the Uber drivers realized they are just a
temporary stopgap until self driving cars are a reality. Uber I'm sure will be
one of the first, if not _the_ first, company to have a massive fleet of self
driving cars.

At that point their costs will be so low they'll be able to undercut anyone
still using human drivers.

~~~
hueving
They are a stopgap in a similar way McDonald's employees are stopgaps until
full automation. It's a long way out; and, even if it is closer than expected,
that type of employee hasn't exactly invested a lot of their life into
training for the job so it's not like they are getting screwed.

~~~
vosper
I suspect Uber will actually beat McDonald's to automation. I tried to find
any evidence that McDonald's in trying to automate their restaurants, and all
I could find was a joke news article.

~~~
smackfu
One thing they do now is put the drive-in order-taker off-site at a call
center.

I guess not so recent, considering this article is from 2006:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/11/technology/11fast.html?pag...](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/11/technology/11fast.html?pag&_r=0)

~~~
ascagnel_
This could be something worth fully automating -- they have a limited number
of options on the menu, and a less-limited but still defined number of
permutations on those options. That problem space may be small enough for
converting text-to-speech. The downside is that you'd still have to have
someone on-call to try to rework any order statements the system has a low
reliability score on.

~~~
GFischer
I don't understand why they don't have an app yet for ordering (at the drive-
in and maybe delivery too).

The combination of app-based ordering and drive-through delivery is one I
strongly believe to be underutilized.

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programminggeek
End users don't know or care what a blockchain is.

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anonbanker
Someone decided to write an uber-replacement on top of Ethereum. This is a lot
cooler than the kickstarter replacement they had in the tutorials.

Looks like this is where the development is headed. I really didn't want to
have to learn Go; is there a rust implementation yet?

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bobajeff
This is really cool. There is very little technical details in the article but
I gather they already got a system in place, it's using etherium, it's
decenralized, and the people behind it have been uber and lyft drivers.

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srameshc
This is great ! Not perfect probably right now but none the less a great
start. I was talking about something like this a few weeks back and thought it
would be in next few years I see a similar product. But it has just been weeks
since that discussion. I truly believe that side chain has answer to such open
solutions and I am very excited to see things being built.

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chatmasta
I love the thought behind this. The biggest threat to Uber is not Lyft or
taxis or any competitors, but the emergence of a decentralized, p2p
ridesharing platform. Ridesharing companies already call themselves "p2p" but
that's a farce. There is nothing p2p about a single $XXX billion corporation
controlling millions of rides.

In the Uber/Driver relationship, it seems at first glance that Uber has all
the power. But in fact, the drivers have far more leverage. A single driver
can drive for multiple apps, and in fact a significant percentage of the
drivers I meet are simultaneously using Uber and Lyft.

Currently drivers using multiple platforms are pretty much only using Uber
and/or Lyft. There is no third competitor. But if one emerges, especially with
superior driver incentives, drivers will use it, even before any riders are on
the platform. Even if demand on a new app is sparse, drivers have no reason
_not_ to download it and run it on their phone alongside Uber and Lyft. In the
meantime while they wait for supply to grow, they can just continue using Uber
and Lyft. But if this "third competitor" offers far greater incentives than
Uber and Lyft, then once it's supply side achieves parity with its demand
side, drivers will prefer it to Uber and Lyft.

So what does a "third competitor" look like to Uber or Lyft? It looks like a
company (or something else!!) that gives 95% or more of revenue to its
drivers, i.e. operates on minimal margins.

What are the requirements of a true p2p ridesharing platform?

\--

\- Bare minimum dependency on centralized third party resources

\- Decentralized reputation and dispute resolution protocols

\- Decentralized payment system, possibly involving an auction model

\- Equilibrium of supply and demand

\- Legal compliance without a dependency on a centralized market maker

\--

No technological barrier exists to any of these requirements.

The most difficult aspect of a p2p ride sharing platform would be legal
compliance. How do riders vet drivers, and how do drivers insure themselves?
Perhaps the solution is a third party, uninvested in the ridesharing platform,
that controls the reputation, dispute resolution, and insurance system. Asking
the ridesharing platform to carry those responsibilities will only result in
bloat and overhead costs that cut into the margins of drivers. Whereas if a
third party manages legal compliance, drivers can price the cost of it into
their own driving services, instead of the platform "passing down" the cost to
drivers (and exaggerating its magnitude).

The second most difficult aspect would be bootstrapping supply and demand. The
supply side is relatively easy, as long as the driver onboarding cost is low.
The demand side is more difficult, because people _trust_ Uber and Lyft.
Building that trust in a decentralized system would not be easy, especially
without legal compliance.

I challenge someone to create the Napster of ridesharing. No central servers
allowed, mobile clients only, no financial overhead per transaction. The next
step would be to create the trusted third party responsible for legal
compliance.

A p2p platform that achieves supply/demand parity and solves the legal
compliance problem will destroy Uber and Lyft, because the centralized costs
of a p2p platform are zero. The drivers price their own services and have
incentive to find the most economically efficient legal compliance. Therefore
prices are lower than Uber and Lyft, so ultimately people will prefer p2p over
centralized.

sidenote: I'm from the Portsmouth area. If anyone at arcade city is reading
this, reach out! :)

~~~
dragontamer
Yeah, except Email and Jabber/XMPP are decentralized answers to Facebook and
Google Hangouts.

Catch-call centralized solutions move faster than decentralized standards.
Furthermore, decentralized standards don't make money. Ray Tomlinson (inventor
of SMTP, the email protocol) isn't filthy rich, and yet everyone uses it.

So without the money incentive, and with the slow standards process (RFC is
the closest to a "standardization" process for the internet)

Besides, everyone just uses Gmail anyway, centralizing into a single, catch-
all platform for convenience. Decentralization may be good for people in
general, but it seems like a terrible business move.

~~~
chatmasta
Maybe the business opportunity is in the third party legal compliance system.
A viable business could build out a solution that works across platforms,
including Uber and Lyft, and then once enough drivers are using it, they could
release an open source, decentralized ridesharing app that allows flexible
pricing and higher profits for drivers than the centralized model.

Its core business value would be the facilitation of legal compliance. The p2p
ridesharing app would simply be another reason for drivers to use the
compliance platform.

~~~
dragontamer
You aren't going to cut costs by making Uber and Lyft the middle-man.

Its just like jet.com. You'll burn money trying to make volume, and then you
run out of it.

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Jaepa
I just want to mention. It looks as though this site is violating the same
orgin policy (is proxying it ads).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-
origin_policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-origin_policy)

~~~
yid
The same-origin policy is not an optional choice that can be "violated".

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vosper
Ethereum, while interesting, is even more obscure than Bitcoin. It's not well
tested, and by their own admission is not production ready.

[https://www.ethereum.org/](https://www.ethereum.org/)

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AndrewDucker
Does this mean that the Blockchain will contain every taxi request ever made
using this system? That's going to get pretty unwieldy after a while.

~~~
Rmilb
Side chains, lightning network, and other off-chain transactions can solve
this problem.

~~~
joosters
Shame they don't exist yet. But I often hear how lightning will solve
everything.

