
Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up - cperciva
http://stripe.com/bitcoin
======
hendzen
Awesome. Now to see how their integration works with regards to confirmation
time. The best solution IMO is to use a risk analyzer to determine the number
of needed confirmations. 0 conf for small payments for a merchant with a low
fraud rate, with increasing confirmations needed as the size of the payment
grows. I would look at BitPay's checkout flow to see the state of the art
here.

Also hoping they implement the payment protocol (BIP70), which gives a much
better user experience and improved security. Instead of copy pasting an
address, a signed payment request is sent to the users Bitcoin wallet with a
message stating something like "Bob's shop has requested a payment of 10USD
(20mBTC) - accept?". Some particularly insidious coin stealing malware has
been developed that modifies the payment address in the clipboard to be
changed to an attackers address, and the whole UX around copying long Base58
encoded strings is horrible. Furthermore, the signed payment request serves as
a receipt. With BIP70, the UX of bitcoin payments surpasses that of CC
payments, IMO.

~~~
kalleboo
> The best solution IMO is to use a risk analyzer to determine the number of
> needed confirmations

As I understand it, you can still feel pretty safe with 0 confirmations if
you're monitoring the bitcoin network for double-spend attempts over the
average network propagation time. If you don't see any double-spend attempts
anywhere on the net by the time most of the net has seen your transaction,
you're probably good. There are a lot of hidden pitfalls in bitcoin security
(such as - the above isn't guaranteed, if miners change their mind to be
greedy and pick the transaction with the highest fee instead of the first one,
that method breaks) so I'm not sure if it's bulletproof though.

~~~
runeks
> There are a lot of hidden pitfalls in bitcoin security (such as - the above
> isn't guaranteed, if miners change their mind to be greedy and pick the
> transaction with the highest fee instead of the first one, that method
> breaks) so I'm not sure if it's bulletproof though.

Keep in mind that enabling this also opens up a counter-attack, against double
spending: if User A sends 1 BTC to you with a fee of 0.0001 BTC, and you
discover that, after sending this transaction to you, he sends the same 1 BTC
to another address, this time with a 0.1 BTC fee, you can create a new
transaction that spends the 1 BTC originally sent to you (with the 0.0001 BTC
fee) which spends everything as a fee in this new transaction.

This way you don't actually get the money, the miners do, but you punish
double spending. And if miners are greedy - and want to include whichever
transaction makes them the most money - they will want include to include
yours, as this makes them a whole 1 BTC in fees.

So in the end, while it may seem that miners including the highest-fee
transaction increases the risk of double spending, it might actually prevent
it, since merchants will also gain an effective way of punishing it.

~~~
corresation
Is this actually possible? You couldn't change the original transaction
without the private key, nor can you spend the results of it until it is in an
accepted block chain block, no? Am I wrong?

~~~
hendzen
You can broadcast a valid tx that depends on an unconfirmed valid tx that was
already broadcasted. The second tx will only be confirmed if the first is,
this is how betting sites that accept 0conf txs (such as SatoshiDice) work.

Not sure if pool software currently selects txs as a sum of the fees of the
txs that depend on them, but it seems reasonable to implement.

------
josephlord
The interesting part of this from my point of view is how Stripe will manage
the conversion of received bitcoin back into dollars. Will they directly sell
bitcoin to consumers themselves or trade on one (or more) of the exchanges.

Stripe are obviously taking the risk of the volatility so will probably want
to keep the bitcoin float that they hold fairly small. They also need to keep
a reasonable margin on these transactions and watch for people who don't
complete transactions unless the price moves in their favour (after the price
has been quoted).

I assume refunds are of bitcoin to the agreed dollar value not the same number
of bitcoins as was spent, otherwise there would be risks there too.

Edit: Found this in other story:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7481219](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7481219)
([http://recode.net/2014/03/27/stripe-merchants-will-soon-
be-a...](http://recode.net/2014/03/27/stripe-merchants-will-soon-be-able-to-
accept-bitcoin-payments/))

 _Payments will arrive in their bank accounts in seven days or fewer. Neither
Stripe nor its customers will hold onto the bitcoin, meaning the businesses
that accept bitcoin will not be subject to the volatility of its price.
Collison said his company is working with a variety of undisclosed partners to
exchange the bitcoin into local currency in near real time._

~~~
antr
i'm going to guess that they will exchange at spot and take a small
transaction fee. having bitcoin on your balance sheet (volatility-wise) is not
the wisest move for a startup.

~~~
gioele
> not the wisest move for a startup.

Is Stripe a "startup"? Founded in 2009, they "process billions of dollars a
year for thousands of companies of all sizes." and they are a "startup"?

~~~
pwim
With a payment gateway, processing billions of dollars per year is still
peanuts. For instance, PayPal processed $52 billion in Q4 2013.

------
tomasien
The concept that Stripe may be moving away from strictly supporting Credit
Card payments (which are awful, but necessary for now) and into alternatives
is so exciting to me that I am literally shaking. We're building
infrastructure to make bank-to-bank transfers palatable to consumers and drive
their cost toward zero, but it's only if thought leaders like the Collisons
embrace the move away from CC's that the move will happen. This is such a huge
step!

~~~
hnnewguy
> _which are awful, but necessary for now_

As a consumer or business?

Because as a consumer, I've never had a complaint about my CC, ever. With the
NFC chips built into all new CCs (at least here in Canada) I tap my card and
leave.

You can't get more convenient than that. As such, I don't think credit cards
are going anywhere.

~~~
ejfox
If you had the option to tap a Bitcoin card and have the same experience, but
save 3% on the transaction, would you?

~~~
srdev
It depends on a lot of other factors. Are my bitcoins on the card insured
against loss or theft? Can I reverse the transaction if I get stiffed? If the
answers are "no" and "no", then I'd probably still prefer my credit card for
peace of mind. 3% isn't a huge discount in the grand scheme of things, and I
get 1-3% rewards on my credit card for most purchases.

~~~
deegles
You can't do any of that with cash either...

~~~
srdev
What does cash have to do with this discussion?

~~~
baddox
Cash is still an extremely common and well-accepted method of payment for
brick and mortar stores, despite the fact that it (like Bitcoin) doesn't have
all the consumer protection features of credit cards.

~~~
srdev
The context of the discussion was a bitcoin card vs a credit card. Cash has
nothing to do with the conversation we're having. Don't move the goalposts.

But I'll play the moving-the-goalpost game. For in-person transactions they
have some similarities. They both have no chargeback or consumer protections,
but we're receiving goods immediately so thats not a very large issue. Cash is
instantaneous, unlike Bitcoin. Cash doesn't have exchange risk. Cash doesn't
have transaction fees, while Bitcoin does. So cash is actually superior for an
in-person transaction.

If I'm going to do an in-person transaction and am not going to use my card,
why would I not use cash? If I don't want to carry cash, why would I not use
my card? And if its an online transaction, then chargebacks are definitely
something I want, even with a trusted merchant. So whats the use case for
bitcoin? The OP proposed one use case; I assume that there are people who find
that valid. It is not a case that interests me, personally, and that prompted
my response.

------
dcc1
I will stick with Bitpay, thank you very much. They are also actively
researching and testing bitcoin stuff >
[http://bitcore.io/blog/articles/cosign-our-multisignature-
wa...](http://bitcore.io/blog/articles/cosign-our-multisignature-wallet-in-
development/)

I used Stripe for several months, but then they said my business is "too high
a risk" for them, 7 years in business (longer than Stripe), hosting company in
Ireland, very low charge-back rate, all customers more than happy, good
support etc!

Since then opened a merchant account with Elavon after referal from our bank
for credit cards and started using Bitpay for bitcoin, not only have lower
fees (0% in case of Bitpay + 30$ a month for professional account), but also
registered with Mastercard 3D Secure and Verified by Visa, which Stripe
doesn't offer either.

~~~
anurag
Really sorry about that. Mind sending me details at anurag@stripe.com?

~~~
dcc1
Thanks email sent, our service is actually not to dissimilar to tarsnap now
that I think of it, anyways that was in the past. Thought I tell people my
experiences.

------
jypepin
I've always loved Stripe for their innovative side and the way they made
accepting / making credit card payments so easier and nicer.

I'm so glad they integrated bitcoin, which I think will be a really good
contribution to make btc spread amongst normal users.

That's great to see them becoming more of a payment processor versus the
simple credit card processor they were.

I love stripe, I love btc, and seeing them together is just really cool and a
big step for both.

~~~
tomasien
Stripe is fantastic at building interfaces and APIs for payment processing -
the fact that they could lead the move away from CC's (on which they built
their business up until now) is thrilling to me. Step 1!

~~~
jypepin
I don't know Stripe enough to draw any conclusion on that, would you see
Stripe becoming a Paypal like, where you could just have an account, link your
CC, BTC, whatever you want, and then have a button "Pay with Stripe"?

~~~
awfycooper
We almost provide that today with Checkout. If you've used Checkout on a
website before, you can easily pay on another site without entering your CC
info again.

[https://stripe.com/checkout](https://stripe.com/checkout)

------
deegles
Given the recent guidance from the IRS regarding bitcoin (it's property like
stocks or bonds...
[http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/0325irsbitc...](http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/0325irsbitcoin.pdf))
I wouldn't try to use it as a day-to-day currency. Every single transaction
will represent a taxable event, requiring calculating cost-basis and capital
gain/loss. If Stripe were announcing today a "pay with MSFT shares" feature,
people would ridicule them. That's essentially what bitcoin payment is. (in
the US at least)

~~~
danielweber
It's really not that bad. Stripe would presumably offer you a full ledger
showing the exact time and price of all the Bitcoins you used.

There are some things to be skeptical about, but the IRS hasn't made Stripe's
use of Bitcoin any harder. They have to keep super-careful records anyway.

------
arboroia
This is quite an intriguing move by Stripe, and I assume they'll provide a
similar service to Neo&Bee, where merchants will be completely shielded from
the price volatility in Bitcoin. It would be interesting if Stripe adds this
Bitcoin support to the Stripe Checkout by default, being one of the first
mainstream deployment of Bitcoin payments. It might also allow them to reduce
fees, which have been largely set by the large card processors so far.

[Edit: Fixed bad grammar]

------
jeffgreco
Definitely enjoyed the email signup placeholder: satoshi@example.com

------
waffle_ss
I'd like to see an easing of the "prohibited businesses"[0] restrictions for
Bitcoin payments, since they aren't beholden to the credit networks for these
transactions. I have a business in the works that tangentially falls under
category #2 so I may not be able to use Stripe as it currently stands.

[0]:
[https://stripe.com/prohibited_businesses](https://stripe.com/prohibited_businesses)

~~~
pc
Agreed; I suspect our Bitcoin prohibited business list, once formalized, will
be more relaxed.

------
rjvir
Stripe doesn't mess around with innovator's dilemma. Bitcoin was one of their
weaknesses and now they could turn it into a strength overnight.

------
evv
Pow! Add me to the list of people foaming at the mouth for this. I'm
refreshing my email every minute in anticipation of seeing their API.

Now, under one provider, we can easily accept CC and BTC. This is great news
for consumers because it means coinbase and stripe are now in head-to-head
competition. These are both well funded startups with great usability. Bring
on the feature war and lower transaction fees!

This is most exciting because this will enable great micropayment support on
stripe, enabling a whole new breed of marketplace. Also, it is now easy to
offer paid anonymous consumption of an API. This is a whole new world of
opportunity!

------
dergachev
Actual article by cperciva about accepting bitcoin via stripe, not sure why
that wasn't linked directly:
[http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2014-03-27-tarsnap-
bitcoin.h...](http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2014-03-27-tarsnap-bitcoin.html)

~~~
cperciva
That's currently the #2 story on the front page. I submitted both, but people
are voting up the link to Stripe more.

------
rebelidealist
I wish all these resources spent & millions of investment dollars would go to
a better version of Bitcoin. BT is a major breakthru but it is still in an
alpha stage. The main problem is that it is deflationary, to support a global
economy it needs to slightly inflationary. This is because for hundreds of
millions of people to use BT, the supply of the coins need to gradually
increase to support the flow of spending. Right now more half of Bitcoin
supply is already own by someone (a lot of them stolen). The BitCoin owners
are holding on their stash in hopes that they will get a return on their
investment. They will sell their BT for currency rather buy depreciating goods
with them.

~~~
tlrobinson
_" The main problem is that it is deflationary, to support a global economy it
needs to slightly inflationary."_

Bitcoin doesn't need to "support a global economy" for it to be
useful/successful.

 _" Right now more half of Bitcoin supply is already own by someone"_

Are you saying one entity owns half of all Bitcoins? I've heard the figure of
a few percent thrown around, but never half.

~~~
haakon
I'm sure he means that half of all bitcoins that will ever exist have already
been mined, meaning they belong to someone (obviously not _one_ person). This
is correct (unless you want to argue about lost coins etc).

------
newaccountfool
This is huge, maybe not for Stripe but this is huge for Bitcoin.

------
richcollins
Will it have an option to retain some % in BTC rather than selling them all
for fiat?

Any plans for an option to accept fiat and convert to BTC?

------
akama
I wonder how Stripe will handle customer disputes. Obviously Bitcoin doesn't
have chargebacks, so will customers be out of luck if the merchant doesn't
provide the services?

~~~
nathancahill
They don't. They don't handle customer disputes with CC either.

------
mcmire
Why are they doing this? It's too late. No one is going to want to make
Bitcoin transactions through a US-based company now because you know the Fed
is going to start creating all sorts of lawsuits unless people follow the
rules. I have zero Bitcoins but if I had any I'd play it safe and put it
somewhere overseas (or if I did put it in a US-based company I'd want to make
damn sure they were backed by an overseas bank).

------
troyk
I wish they would add ACH

~~~
pc
We have it in beta. Email amber@stripe.com!

~~~
spitfire
What does the ACH process look like? As far as I understand I can simply give
a customer by banks ACH/routing info and have them pay directly.

If there's some value add here I'd jump on it. Offering ACH has been a
significant credibility boost with my (enterprisey) customers.

Also, wow you guys have grown. I remember when your team page had two rows.

------
Smudge
I wonder how this will work. Once out of beta, will it be a default option, or
will it require extra steps for both the developer and the end-user? And will
we be able to operate primarily in Bitcoin end-to-end, or will everything be
converted to/from a preferred currency (e.g. USD) during each transaction?

~~~
pgtruesdell
Stripe is going to convert it to the merchant's local currency in "real time"
to prevent the problems in fluctuations of BTC value. This is shaping up to be
very nice.

[http://recode.net/2014/03/27/stripe-merchants-will-soon-
be-a...](http://recode.net/2014/03/27/stripe-merchants-will-soon-be-able-to-
accept-bitcoin-payments/)

~~~
etchalon
Both Coinbase and BitPay already do this.

~~~
ycombasks
But they don't also process credit cards. I'm sure it'll be very convenient
for developers to have everything under one service.

------
bachback
I wonder whether this something to do with Wells Fargo's stance, which is
positive: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/14/us-wellsfargo-
bitc...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/14/us-wellsfargo-bitcoin-
idUSBREA0D1LL20140114)

------
Dorian-Marie
Does anybody have screenshots of the Bitcoin integration, the iframes are
down.

~~~
cperciva
Sorry about that, I realized too late that a t1.micro instance really wasn't
cut out for this. It should be working again now.

------
loganu
Awesome.I wanted to integrate BTC as an option to cut out their 3% fee. If
they can handle it for 0.5 to 1.5%, I'm happy to keep them in the loop

------
elwell
So all this time satoshi has been at example.com; who would've guessed?

------
hw
Bitcoin aside, Stripe has been an awesome landing page factory IMO. Love
watching them churn out landing page after landing page (Checkout,
Marketplaces, and now one for Bitcoin)

------
ConAntonakos
I would like to know more about the animations they used here. :)

------
ertemplin
Looks like we took down their iframes

------
notastartup
what sort of things can you build with this besides accepting payment in
bitcoins.

------
dabit
Am I the only one that read Stripe: Bacon at first glance?

------
andersthue
Is it april 1'st already?

------
pbreit
Hm...it's only March 27. Is Stripe about to jump the shark?

Edit: the reason I think it could be a JTS moment is that I associate "the
addition of bitcoin" with "tired marketing stunt performed by irrelevant
companies like Overstock". I could be wrong.

