
Internet Cafe Refugees – Japan's Disposable Workers - doppp
http://disposableworkers.com/?page_id=37
======
patio11
c.f. this discussion of the same phenomenon on HN from 6 years ago

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794)

In particular, if you want to understand why someone would opt for paying more
daily rather than less monthly, the big non-obvious factors are a) landlords
have a very particular set of requirements regarding social status to be
allowed to rent in a building ( _gradually_ loosening) and b) a few
institutions like key-money balloon the upfront payment required to move into
an apartment.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552175](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552175)

When we moved to Tokyo, my wire to the new apartment's management company
(introduction fee, key money, deposit, first month's rent, insurance,
guarantor fee) was, well, call it 50% of a young salaryman's take home pay for
a year.

~~~
GreaterFool
Property market in Japan is strange but I still find it much better than where
I live now (Singapore).

When I stayed in Tokyo all buildings I've looked at were owned by big
corporations. The upside was that rent was quite reasonable. Also one can
always make an offer. Those companies don't go for a bidding war. The property
will go to the first person that makes an offer provided that both the person
and the offer are 'acceptable', rather than the highest bidder.

The rental process can be quite complicated though. I can't even begin to
imagine how to rent a flat directly without getting everything arranged
through the company that hired you. If I tried to rent by myself I have a
feeling that I would be refused even if I offered to pay the whole lease (1
year or 2 years) upfront...

And while rent itself is not bad there are some crazy cost to deal with.
Moving from company A to company B and changing the name on the lease? That's
monthly rent gone! And there's the "key money" (1 month rent as a fixed fee
when signing the lease). Fortunately one can often find "no key money deals".

I will be moving back to Japan soon so fingers crossed. Hopefully I'll manage
to work something out.

~~~
vetler
What's it like in Singapore?

~~~
GreaterFool
The rental prices in Singapore are very high. If I wanted to rent a studio
flat close to where I work I would have to pay S$3500+ and it wouldn't be easy
to find. To live alone it is very expensive; sharing is a bit better and
that's what I opted for.

A lot of Tokyo apartments are small and well designed and the quality of
materials is fantastic. They are also very well maintained. Apartments in
older buildings still look great. And the prices are reasonable. Varying the
size / distance to the centre / condition of the building gives you a wide
spectrum. Something should fit your pocket.

In Singapore the options are much more limited. I'd rather take a well
designed 20-30m^2 studio than overpay for 50m^2; for me that's a waste of
space. I don't need a small and mostly useless condo gym; I'd rather pay for a
proper gym membership. Swimming pool might seem nice initially but think about
how much you pay for it in rent (whether you use it or not). Unfortunately all
condos have "amenities". And that "added value" isn't free.

There's also a crazy "double agent" system in place in Singapore. When you see
an ad online it is not uncommon that it has been placed by "agent" that has
nothing to do with the landlord. They insert themselves between you and the
landlord's agent. So you call them up and it turns out they might not even
know on which floor the apartment is on! (happened to me more than once).
Because the other agent didn't tell them... And as you might expect both
agents expect to be paid. This is usually 1 month per year of lease, even on
your re-contract. You're supposed to pay your agent off and the landlord is
supposed to pay their agent off.

Another weird thing is that you'll never see the photos of the apartments
online. Most of the time the photos are just generic filler. The agents post
their own mugshots though (crazy, right?).

Finding a flat in Singapore wasn't a pleasant experience.

------
euske
As far as I remember, the term "Net-cafe Refugee" was already common in early
2000s, but I feel that Japan hasn't done much to reduce the number of them (in
a good way). And we were too busy paying attention to more sensational things.

As a Japanese citizen, I welcome these reports. It's repeatedly shown that we
have no self-correction ability, and I think being exposed and embarrassed in
front of the world is one of few effective ways to change this society. We
need more of this.

~~~
busterarm
Forgive me if I'm simply being ignorant in my questioning here.

As a foreigner with interest in your country but an obviously limited
perspective, I have noticed what seems to be a growing trend there in
willingness to publicly challenge traditions and institutions and to draw
attention to societal problems. This strikes me as being very "unjapanese".
While I can see evidence of it going back to the '50s, it seems to be an
attitude that has become much more common in the last 10 years or so. Am I
totally misunderstanding this, and if not, do you have a positive outlook on
some large cultural shift fixing many of these problems in the near-future?
"Revolution happens in the mind" and all...

As a side note, from the little bit that I've seen, the amount of attention
that the hikikomori phenomenon has received seems to have resulted in some
positive steps to dealing with mental health issues like that and it looks
like Japan is ahead of other countries that have and don't admit to the same
problem.

~~~
gkanai
There were arguably more challenges to traditions and institutions in decades
past than in today's Japan. Student anti-war riots in the late 60s, etc. Today
there are limited protests, especially strong after Fukushima, but none as
strong as what happened in 1969.

~~~
busterarm
Hmm, a very good point and counterargument. I've come across this once or
twice before but I realize I know frustratingly little about the student
protests there in '69\. Thanks @gen!

(Been to your blog before for motorcycle reasons. Big fan!)

------
cup
I've stayed in one of these overnight Japanese net cafes. They're absolutely
amazing, with TV's libraries, a collection of DVDs, games and magazines. You
can pay to shower, theres even a kitchen with food.

That being said, It's a novelty and definitely something I wouldn't want to
experience night after night.

~~~
Red_Tarsius
Off Topic: When I was in Sapporo, I spent a lot of time in Internet Cafes. I
LOVED them. Huge up-to-date library, fast internet connection, free lunch,
shower, sofa... This place was in the center of the city. Hotels in the same
area would have costed 3/4 times that.

The only downside is the smoke. Too many people were smoking and polluting the
cafe. As a minor, I could not go to the non-smoking area.

~~~
subleq
> As a minor, I could not go to the non-smoking area.

Is that backwards?

------
noobermin
I just spent the last couple of minutes watching those videos. That "hostess
girls" really got me.

The US is by no means perfect, but to think that human beings could be stuck
in such a situation (to literally be worked to death) seems obscene. Here
comes my Ignorant American side talking, but to even imagine such lack of
opportunity and freedom in a first world country makes no sense to me.

~~~
hugozap
> to even imagine such lack of opportunity and freedom in a first world
> country makes no sense to me.

What about the lack of opportunity for black people in the US and the fact
that most of the prison population is black?, both opportunity and freedom
lacking here too. Just different contexts and cultures.

~~~
Agustus
It is not a lack of opportunity, it is a lack of dual parent opportunities
that can place the proper amount of time into their children to develop them
for school and career opportunities.

Taking a step back from race, let us focus it on one parent families. While it
is possible to successfully raise a child in a one-parent family it is a
difficult variable; there is a reason why the news includes single parent as a
hardship in their tales. Locating child-care, staying home with a kid who is
sick and cannot attend day care, one income wages, and a host of other
variables create issues for allocating the one-on-one time necessary to
develop the ABC's, numbers, and mannerisms that a two-parent family is capable
of; be they gay, straight, black, white, asiatic, hispanic.

The question is how can we, as a society, encourage two-parent families, so we
can get people a good start to be successful?

On the website, there are societal factors within Japan that are creating
suicidal individuals without any hope for the future:

* Salary careers are no longer as optimum as before, Mr. Tadayuki is taking the same action as those of second born individuals from centuries past, seeking opportunities in other lands. Staying in Japan only creates suicidal thoughts.

* Hostess girls fall into the same trap as strippers, there is so much up front monies to be made that pursuing a career seems dubious for those who are not able to see long term benefits or have requirements that necessitate large up-front monies (drug habits). Getting them off of these careers would require a government or privately run stripper wean off program.

~~~
greggman
I think maybe you're viewing hostesses from a decidedly western pov. I have
lots of hostess friends or x-hostess friends. All but one of them saw it as a
pleasant experience. They talked a lot and got paid very very well. They
didn't have to put out and some of them gained amazing social skills that have
helped them in their current careers. All of them (except 1) go back from time
to time for extra cash.

My point being its not seedy to Japanese culture where as to westerners it's
often associated with strippers. It's not or at least a large percentage of it
is not

~~~
Agustus
Thanks for your insight Mr. GreggMan, I figured the hostess title meant that
they were not doing seedy thing. I wanted to point out the addictive property
of going to work for a high pay job that was only good for a period of time
and having the ability to get away from that job.

I wondered about the seediness level and your comment helped explain it
better.

------
minikomi
Interesting. 230,000 seems a surprisingly average wage to be stuck in a net
cafe. I think there may be other factors at play - perhaps the part time
nature of his job prevents him from being accepted into apartments.

edit: Just my opinion, but I'd say ¥1,000,000 is ... overestimating it a fair
bit. Assuming 70,000 rent - a little less than what I pay in a 1DK quite near
Shinjuku/Shibuya - 2 months cleaning deposit, 1 month rent in advance, 1 month
to the agent, 1 month guarantor, ~20,000 disaster insurance fees, ~5万 to get
very basic furnishings (Nittori delivers!) - comes in under half that.

Key money seems to be less and less common. More often than not, it's only one
month, or zero with a 2 month cleaning fee.

~~~
jpatokal
As the article says, when you're temping and have an irregular income, you
need to pay _more_ in guarantor fees, advance rent etc to make up for your
perceived/actual lack of stability.

~~~
VLM
Also a close reading of the article shows the intro dude was getting over
twice the income of his fellow cafe residents.

So if overtime goes away and they only need him 3 days/week instead of current
6 days/week, and maybe he loses his temp job entirely for a few months, or
gets stuck at 1/2 average income instead of twice for awhile... he could be
homeless and penniless on the street in just a couple months. So saving up a
very large cushion sounds wise to me.

A long time ago I went into my first bachelor pad expecting to spend X in the
first month and ended up spending 2X. Things add up!

------
peter303
I've read several articles about some Silicon Valley employees living in their
cars. Especially if the company provides most everything else- food, showers,
entertainment. Why spend huge amounts on apartment you just sleep in? This
happened at MIT and Stanford too when I was there.

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11089188/Google...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11089188/Google-
staff-shun-homes-and-live-in-car-park.html)

~~~
mvid
Is there anything in your life other than work at that point? You are either
at work or a bunk bed on wheels.

How is that healthy?

------
jmadsen
The "key money" is an archaic thing that really needs to be addressed. There's
been a little bit of loosening up on it, but it is still quite obnoxious the
amount you have to pay for the "privilege" of a lease.

~~~
ekianjo
Yeah, totally agree. This is so ridiculous. Japan is one of the only developed
countries where owners have about everything to their advantage.

~~~
VLM
Stereotypically this is a symptom of strong renters rights laws. Its a
tradeoff.

I've rented in places where renters are treated little better than cattle, at
least legally, and you show up with first and last in a cashiers check, they
run a credit check while you wait (which I never had a problem with although I
assume people must occasionally fail?), sign a one year lease, they hand you
the keys, whole process is done in like 10 minutes. Then again if you don't
pay up the judge will issue an eviction before the month is out, seen those
papers posted on doors. And that's precisely why they'll rent on the spot to
almost anyone with a pulse no hassle.

Then again I've heard of places where women with children can't be legally
evicted because the judges just won't approve, any code violation or maint
issue means rent goes into escrow not to the owner, endless .gov permits and
hassle. Thats nice that .gov has your back when there's a problem, but when
there isn't a problem, you end up with key fees and guarantors and endless
paperwork and social standing stuff.

Given that experience, I would assume Japan is some kind of renters paradise
when/if a problem occurs, whereas at a net cafe in Japan if a problem occurs
either you walk out or are physically tossed out, although I didn't read
anything in the article on that topic (Or I missed it if it was there)

------
techsupporter
These sound like aPodments in Seattle, though even smaller: accommodations for
people who either can't afford or don't want to live in "traditional" units.

~~~
icebraining
They seem great to me, but sheesh, $775/month? Is the city that expensive?

~~~
fennecfoxen
[http://seattle.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=775](http://seattle.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=775)
(+ click Map)

Not a whole lot of options at that price -- at least, not anywhere near the
city center. Things are a little better in, like, Tacoma :P

------
JohnLen
Is this just a market inefficiency? A cubicle with electricity and internet
should cost more than a cubicle with bed and nothing else.

~~~
rwallace
If you're providing a cubicle with bed and available showers, laundry service
and suchlike, the added cost of providing electricity and Internet is small
whereas the added value is large, so it strikes me as efficient.

------
Kurtz79
It is dishonarable in Japan to live in your parents' home until you find
something stable ? Or to live in a flatshare ?

The average salary for those Coffee Shop dwellers is higher than a starting
salary for many jobs in Southern Europe.

Even if the cost of living is inferior to Tokyo, it's still not enough to rent
an apartment by yourself for most people, so many 20something stay at their
parents' home until they saved enough to move out, or found a better job, of
just find a flatshare.

I know it's cultural, and not very flattering for those still living off their
parents in their mid-late twenties, but given the alternative...

------
saint_fiasco
The worst part I think is that, even though they don't have family in the
city, work is hard to find, and the rent is very expensive, they still won't
leave Tokio.

Does that mean the other cities are worse?

