
Defining the ’90s Music Canon - feross
https://pudding.cool/2020/07/song-decay
======
robear
How do you try to make a 90s music canon without grunge/alternative? There are
a plethora of other genres that developed or emerged into relative popularity
in the 90s that were hugely influential on music going forward.

Taking the most popular songs at the time is not a recipe for finding the best
songs/songs that will be remembered in the future. A good percentage of the
songs listed were crap then and not worth remembering now.

~~~
jariel
There are very deep limitations in a) chart toppers vs. otherwise popular and
b) ethnicity i.e. White/African American/Latino have quite a different slot of
pop culture references in the US, much less pronounced for example in UK or
Canada.

The other 'big thing' to consider is that Gen Z are still quite young, and
sometimes it takes time to pick up on a lot of music. We hear tracks in films,
living in other conditions.

Also seems like Gen X has pretty good musical knowledge overall! But probably
due to being the 'right age' for having been able to listen to a lot of stuff.

Finally, dismayed by the 90's top-charters. I couldn't fathom listening to
most of that even back then.

~~~
082349872349872
> _b) ethnicity i.e. White /African American/Latino have quite a different
> slot of pop culture references in the US, much less pronounced for example
> in UK or Canada._

I wonder if UK and canada might be more similar to europe, where disco (as a
popular culture which belonged to all those ethnicities) never really died in
the same way it did in the states, killed by spontaneous popular uprising?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_Demolition_Night](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_Demolition_Night)

~~~
anthk
In Spain, specially in the East Coast, disco was replaced by techno/makina:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mákina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mákina)

~~~
082349872349872
TIL about "X-Ta Si, X-Ta No". (and, in a cousin thread, that "mall pop" is a
genre name. Does it mean music played in malls, or music performed in malls?
Do malls even still exist?)

Maybe HN'ers with young children should try and convince them that the world
really was low-rez back then and only achieved current resolution this
century?

[https://i.imgur.com/4rPGp.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/4rPGp.jpg)

------
mywittyname
This is an interesting concept, but I think the researcher put too much
personal bias in their choice of songs. For example, there are some very
conspicuous omissions from the list: no Nirvana, no Foo Fighters, no Linkin
Park, no Jay Z, no No Doubt. These are some of the most iconic musicians from
the 90s.

I still see young kids walking around with the same Nirvana t-shirt with the
yellow smiley face that I wore in middle school. So I imagine Smells Like
Teens Spirit is recognized by teenagers today. I've heard a lot of people say
that's the song that started the 90s.

Also, it would be interesting to normalize this by noting whether or not the
song appeared on Glee. I'm fairly certain that's the reason for the Losing My
Religion being so recognizable, I wonder how it compares to a song like It's
the End of the World.

~~~
orhmeh09
Linkin Park was not an iconic ‘90s band at any time in the 1990s —- why would
they be a glaring omission when their debut came out in 2000?

~~~
mywittyname
Fair enough, I thought Hybrid Theory, which was all over the radio when it was
released, came out in 99.

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kanobo
Pudding makes beautiful articles, but this is specifically 90's Pop Mall Music
Canon. I think it'll be more interesting to analyze the top 1000 popular 90's
songs still being streamed today and work backwards to measure the influence
and delta of their past popularity.

~~~
sien
Good thought - this can be quickly searched for too:

[https://pudding.cool/2017/03/timeless/index.html](https://pudding.cool/2017/03/timeless/index.html)

Nirvana are waaay out in front.

~~~
082349872349872
¿Por qué no los dos?

"The Final Teen Spirit Mashup (Nirvana vs Europe)"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr06IyWMf4Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr06IyWMf4Y)

------
skookum
The list feels like the equivalent of an 80s canon that includes Rick Astley
but omits Depeche Mode.

The approach of taking what was most popular at the time and intersecting it
with what is most recognizable now doesn't seem like the right way to define a
canon. A canon in art is usually meant to identify those works that, with the
benefit of hindsight, were the most important or influential on the
development of the art form. This list is heavily weighted towards R&B & pop-
rap that has had virtually no lasting impact on subsequent works and I suspect
many of these songs are only listened to today either out of personal
nostalgia or in humorous contexts.

------
riffraff
This is pretty interesting. I'm astonished there is no Nirvana or U2 in the
canon.

I am wondering if looking at sales one year after the song came out, or radio
transmission after a while, would be a stronger predictor of staying power
than what peaked at a given time.

------
causality0
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and posit that the respondents of this quiz
aren't a random sampling of normal people. At 31 I'm square in millennial
territory but was familiar with exactly zero of the "millennial all know these
songs" examples.

~~~
gilgoomesh
I'm a Gen Xer. I'm not from the U.S. but I had to look up "No Diggity" in
disbelief that someone would think it a "90's standard". I had literally never
heard of it.

There's also plenty on the list that I recognise but I can guess why they've
faded. Most obvious are followup singles that charted well despite being
pretty bland (it was some _previous_ song by the artist that was good).
There's also a couple movie tie-ins that were only popular alongside the
movie. Some, like Bryan Adams' "All for Love", manage to tick both those boxes
(I don't think I'd heard that song in 25 years).

And Winds of Change by the Scorpions was gigantic in Europe in the early 1990s
but it is literally a song about perestroika. It's about as entrenched in a
specific era as a song can get.

Edit: wow, same website has an article discussing why "No Diggity" is the most
timeless song. Shows what I know?

[https://pudding.cool/2017/03/timeless/index.html](https://pudding.cool/2017/03/timeless/index.html)

~~~
dkdbejwi383
It seems very USA-centric to this European, too. Classic case of an American
mistaking the USA for the entire world.

~~~
Markoff
yup, black/R&B/hiphop/rap musis was very small in Europe, while I don't see
mainstream eurohouse/trance hits like Robert Miles's Children, ATB's Till I
come, Rhythm is a dancer, What Is Love from Haddaway, all even recognizable by
my boomer father, let alone myself, none of them amde it into chart while they
must be recognized for sure at least by 50% of Millennials

~~~
HeadsUpHigh
Children is the bomb,the melody just sticks to your brain even when I haven't
listened to it for years I instantly recognize it and I'm a bit late to that
movement so it wasn't much on the radio when I was a teen.

------
wink
Had this discussion quite a bit lately, and I have a theory.

When we grew up (I'm 36 and at the tail end of this) we couldn't easily find
the music we liked and exclusively listen to it (unless you had rich parents
who bought you all MCs and later CDs you wanted), we kinda had to listen to
the radio and experience the whole spectrum.

This is even more true of people in the 35-50 age bracket.

But people who grew up with Napster or even later with streaming on demand
don't even have to dig a lot. If they like one artist, they can just listen to
them and the (very closely related, surprise) recommendations. No more begging
your friends to make you a tape copy of some songs on CDs.

Also afaik the amount of music published goes up every year. So if I actively
remember, say 100 songs from the year 1994 that is a much more meaningful
representation than 100 songs that came out in 2019.

~~~
ilamont
There was a kind of serendipity, though, to what _good_ radio DJs/playlists
could introduce you to. I also spent a lot of money on compilations, some of
which were curated quite well by labels (like Subpop and SST), record stores
(Newbury Comics in Boston), and fanzines (Flipside).

Other sources for discovering good music included friends' record/CD
collections, live shows, publications of varying quality, and (I hate to say
it) MTV.

Some of these sources were controlled by the music industry, but there were
ways for some really interesting and great music from unknowns to float to the
surface.

~~~
schwartzworld
Music stores were a primary source of discovery for me as well. I was
introduced to my favorite band after my friend heard their CD playing at a
music store.

Bigger stores often had listening stations where they would feature CDs with
headphones so you could hear them before you buy. I got introduced to some
amazing albums via that process.

~~~
ilamont
I lived overseas in the 90s and radio there was pretty bad, but those
listening stations at the local Tower Records kept me connected to English-
language music and introduced me to some fantastic albums and artists,
including NAS, The Verve, DJ Guru, and The Presidents of the United States of
America.

------
andykx
The findings are mind-boggling to me. Though none of these songs are
representative of my preferred style of music, I knew every single one of them
so well that I feel like I still know every word. I was born in ‘93. I’m
surprised that so few people from my age group seemed to recognize some of
them.

~~~
jariel
As a GenX-er it's also mind boggling to me how some very 'ingrained' songs
might not be recognized by younger folks. Quite a lot of good pop tracks, not
my style, but they are played literally at the grocery store, I don't fathom
how people don't know them.

Something has definitely changed in music (a few things) - at hockey games
they are playing strictly rock up until 2000. Part of it is demographics, but
there's just nothing to replace 'Welcome To The Jungle' by Guns and Roses that
has enough widespread acclaim.

~~~
jacobush
Yeah, it's almost uncanny. I wonder what it's going to do with for instance
movie tracks with popular appeal. Will we continue to play what people know?
Will the canon of the 20th century be with us for a _long_ time?

~~~
core-questions
Sure, why not? Musical innovation seems to have slowed or fractured due to
only pop music still having sufficient institutional backing to really retain
large segments of listeners; meanwhile, music - like most communally-
experienced art forms - thrives best when large groups of people know about
them.

In other words: there's probably plenty of great stuff to replace/supplant
20th century hits, but unless you continually skulk random soundcloud pages
you won't find it. All you get access to is undifferentiated pablum pop by
default, which is amazingly less brave than it has ever been, musically.

~~~
jariel
Pop is now 'extreme pop' i.e. Taylor Swift - bangers by the same production
teams, they are products. So they lack a lot of soul.

The rest of music is very exploratory - production tricks, sounds, styles.

It seems that most basic melody and rhythm stuff is just to boring - but that
is what sticks over the long haul.

So I think a lot of music today is too specific, and due to what big-pop is
... never sees the light of day anyhow.

We may in fact see a lot of 20-century music linger for a while.

That said, we don't listen to a lot of 1st half 20th century today ... though
still tons from the 60's-80's. Top selling albums are consistently Queen,
Metallica, Eagles.

~~~
caf
Those pop production teams have been around for a while - eg. Stock Aitken
Waterman, Cheiron Studios.

~~~
dkdbejwi383
Indeed, the notorious Max Martin's been doing his thing since about 1997, and
seems to show no signs of decline.

~~~
jacobush
Akshuly he has had fewer mega hits lately.

------
ajuc
No Metallica? No Offspring? No Nirvana? No U2? No R.E.M.?

Without these bands in radio 90s I remember would be silent half the time :)

~~~
Markoff
it's chart for Americans only, hardly any validity for Europe, also no
mainstream trance/house hits like Robert Miles, Sash, Haddaway etc.

------
082349872349872
What's up with the songs which have more recognition by later than
contemporary generations?

    
    
        Wind of Change
        She Ain't Worth It
        Romantic
        Diamonds and Pearls
    

(only the first means anything to me, but this decade isn't really my 'zik)

I'd guess songs which get covered, parodied, or sampled are more likely to
last?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9CF1vXmtrQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9CF1vXmtrQ)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H3Sv2zad6s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H3Sv2zad6s)

~~~
onorton
They seem to be on the lower end of recognition in general so that might have
something to do with it (statistical variation)

Side note but I'm surprised that Diamonds and Pearls rather than any other
90's Prince song charted in the Top 5, especially compared to other singles
from that album.

------
aaronbrethorst
I desperately wish I was part of the 11% of millennials unfamiliar with
_Ironic_ (don’t you think?)

Meanwhile, _Wind of Change_ seems to only be known by Europeans, but may have
been written by the CIA?! [https://www.vulture.com/article/patrick-radden-
keefe-wind-of...](https://www.vulture.com/article/patrick-radden-keefe-wind-
of-change-interview.html)

Also, 38 years old. Born in 1982.

~~~
yesenadam
I clicked that link. Absolutely no evidence it was written by the CIA, of any
kind, by the sound of it. "May have been" is a fair but misleading summary.
"No evidence it was" wouldn't've got me to click.

------
082349872349872
Anyone interested in a different 90's[1] might try tracking down the originals
from the
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzdXS_KvLVM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzdXS_KvLVM)
megamix[2].

I was amused by:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2fNVztaC58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2fNVztaC58)
in which the conceit is a near future in which stars of the 90's moscow scene
are living in the old folks' home[3].

[1] Is it wallowing in nostalgia if one hears many of the songs for the first
time?

[2] Yes, this one includes Nirvana, as well as Mario.

[3] They're still popping pills at the bar, but presumably this time they have
prescriptions.

------
mung
Goddamn, thanks for reminding me that my dim view of the general population
didn't start with the introduction of facebook and discovering that the most
most popular youtube videos/channels are. Is it any wonder so many western
nations can't handle even the basics of a pandemic or voting in non-populist
idiots? Just look at their taste in music.

------
mark-r
I must be doing something right. My kids are constantly surprising me by being
familiar with songs that are older than they are.

On the other hand, I didn't know that "Wild Wild West" was by Will Smith! It
was in constant rotation at the roller rink I used to go to so I've heard it a
million times, but never knew where it came from.

~~~
krapp
>On the other hand, I didn't know that "Wild Wild West" was by Will Smith!

It was from the Wild Wild West remake movie he starred in as well. I think
they were trying to recreate the success of the Men in Black formula[0] but
that song wound up being the only part of it that anyone remembered.

[0][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiBLgEx6svA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiBLgEx6svA)

~~~
mark-r
And now I realize why I didn't remember it being Will Smith, because it
wasn't. The song I remember is an earlier one with the same name, by Escape
Club.

------
Markoff
Sounds like this is biased towards American listeners and export of American
music abroad

As European Xennial (more narrowed Millennial) I went through the chart in the
end of article and I think this is first time I heard Baby Got Back
(recognized by 84% millennials), No scrubs (89%), No Diggity (79%) and can
guarantee recognitionr ate among my perrs would be way below 50% if I don't
recognize it who was listening radio and going to cloubs all the time

also can't believe only 68% of Millennials would recognize Ice ice baby,
that's completely insane, it was impossible to miss it as it was global hit in
90s, same with extremely popular rock ballad Always from JBJ with only 49%
recognition among Millennials

also I don't see any mainstream eurohouse/trance hits like Robert Miles's
Children, ATB's Till I come, Rhythm is a dancer, What Is Love from Haddaway,
all even recognizable by my boomer father, let alone myself, none of them made
it into chart while they must be recognized for sure at least by 50% of
Millennials, which just again proves it's just chart for Americans who were
not listening to house/trance in mainstream radio

------
gok
I have to say I am still super confused how Gen Z could recognize the
Scorpions more than Millennials.

------
skor
No Aphex Twin, or Daft Punk ... ? Ha

~~~
chrisseaton
When you check the charts, this music wasn’t anywhere near as popular as you
think it was.

Daft Punk never had any impact on the popular charts in the 90s. Top 4 in
Belgium is the best they did according to Wikipedia.

Everyone’s just projecting their own personal tastes!

~~~
DanBC
> never had any impact on the popular charts in the 90s

...in the US.

They did somewhat better in the UK:
[https://www.officialcharts.com/artist/25579/daft-
punk/](https://www.officialcharts.com/artist/25579/daft-punk/)

~~~
chrisseaton
That's still a single song scraping into the top five. Doesn’t seem like a
notable result to be seen as a major omission?

I'm sure _you_ listened to it, but doesn't seem to have made a dent at the
time.

And the context of the article is the US.

------
garaetjjte
Playing clips is broken for me (Firefox). Works only for first time, requires
page refresh to work again.

~~~
Markoff
works fine for me in newest FF on W10, I hope you are not masochist using
horrible FF experience on Android where are much better browsers like Kiwi,
Bromite or even Edge or Samsung internet available

------
EamonnMR
Most of the graphs aren't showing up (Firefox on android?)

------
davidw
Underrated: Fishbone.

