
Are coders worth it? (2013) - lingz
http://aeon.co/magazine/living-together/james-somers-web-developer-money/
======
pytrin
The article is technically well written, but somewhat uninformed which stems
from the author's limited experience and what he sees in popular media.

I thought the top comment below reflected what I have seen in my 10 years in
the industry, much better:

" This is a very well written piece, but it's only covering the frothy tip of
a very deep phenomenon. I too am a Rails developer, have been coding
professionally for 15 some odd years, and I too find what VCs are chasing
nowadays to be mostly time wasting crap. But that's not what software, even
web software, is really about right now. It's just the glam side of the game.

The real folks making real things happen are building tools and technologies
that literally could not have existed 10 years ago. In my personal experience,
I've built integrated web portals that show real-time electricity usage for
factories, saving them 10-50 grand a month by lowering usage during peak
hours. I've built sales management tools that allowed a 2 man company to scale
to a distributed team of dozens. Online rental advertising systems to cut out
costly newspapers. Medical order management systems.

It's not glamorous, it doesn't get on TechCrunch or Hacker News, but it's real
value, delivered by real professionals. And that, more than the stupid photo
sharing cruft, is what's really driving developer salaries.

During the late 90's, the joke/threat was "go away or I will replace you with
a very small shell script" \- the point being that lots of human work could be
automated by a savvy developer. That threat has become a promise, and we
(costly) web developers are the ones fulfilling that promise across a huge
range of industries." \- Rob Morris

~~~
freditup
I remember reading this article when it first came out - it's biting and does
a good job criticizing things that probably deserve some criticism.

But, I agree with that top comment - the real value from coders come from
solving real problems people have. One non-profit near me said to me once: "We
spend so much staff time entering data into our CRM software from the forms
our clients fill out. We wish our staff could spend more time helping the
clients."

And this is a great (and easy) problem for technology to solve. Solving
problems like this is where technology is great, it simplifies life, it
reduces unneeded work, etc. And often, it's actually, in my opinion, more fun
than the 'glamorous stuff'.

~~~
girvo
_> And often, it's actually, in my opinion, more fun than the 'glamorous
stuff'._

Can't agree more with you. When I look for a job, I look to work at places
solving difficult or complex problems that can create real value, and more
often than not that's not at the next photo-sharing-social-site, although once
those places get to scale cool tech does get created. I just love working in
this industry full stop, and wouldn't trade it for the world!

------
wonnage
You will always have the nagging guilt of passing by the janitor, whose job
exists because cleaning bathrooms is dirty and time-consuming, and wondering
why your work has more value than theirs.

But what if there is no logic to the system, that it's arbitrary, and random,
and has simply found an equilibrium at the moment? You could drive yourself
crazy thinking about it. Why are writers valued as they are? Because that's
what people are willing to pay them. Why don't they just rise up and demand
better pay? Who knows. Maybe people just don't value reading that much. Is it
because they're uneducated? etc. ad infinitum.

Why does a web developer making to-do apps lead a better a life than someone
researching cancer cures? Beats me. But it would be a complete waste of their
good fortune, to be at the right place at the right time, if they didn't use
this advantage. Already the system is saturated with hacker school grads, and
the buzz is moving towards mobile, I can easily imagine a day where knowing
Rails is no longer a golden ticket.

It's as silly as wondering why you got to cross the Atlantic on the luxurious
Titanic, while everyone else is scrambling to the life boats. If you truly
think that your present value is purely a matter of luck or a bubble, that
it's illusory, then there is no _why_ , you'd damned better make sure you find
something concrete before everything goes to shit.

~~~
Dewie
> Why don't they just rise up and demand better pay?

Because unions are bad and the Free Market will magically fix everything with
its magical, invisible hand. Haven't you heard?

(though I don't know if a union would make sense for writers in general.)

~~~
barry-cotter
That is indeed a small part of it. Much more is that anyone who can graduate
primary school can probably do an acceptable job as a janitor while the
capacity to do programming just isn't as common. Supply and Demand, baby.

~~~
Dewie
I was talking about writers.

------
gfodor
I've decided to "rotate out" of CRUD-ish web and app development for these
very reasons, after doing it for about 15 years. I can't help but feel most of
the skills that developers have that get them showered with high paying, high
security jobs are on a crash course with being commoditized. It's only going
to get easier to develop networked data-flow oriented applications that solve
business problems, so if you want security in your career you should be
working on things that are, at least for now, deeply challenging and have a
reasonably high knowledge barrier to entry. Particularly things that require
some serious domain knowledge that your average software engineer won't pick
up naturally in a short time on the job. Rails app development is not that.

~~~
thatthatis
Whether the wave of abstraction drowns you or propels you depends on whether
try to fight it or learn to surf it

I personally love that about every year or 18 months the time it would take me
to build a particular feature set drops by about half (either because
libraries have arisen, I gained experience, or I have code that does half of
it already).

If you're not putting yourself out of a job every six months or so, someone
else will.

~~~
gfodor
web developers like the OP can very easily go the way of any other field that
has been killed by sufficient automation. i don't see CRUD-app development as
a robust, long term skill, despite how well paying it has been the last
decade.

if you consider 'surfing' to mean always being up on the latest web framework
or library, as many do, then I think that is too narrow a scope to consider
yourself immune from being automated out of a job. if you consider 'surfing'
to be looking at broader strokes in other areas of computer science and
software eating the world in general, then that's a different story. you have
to diversify.

~~~
thatthatis
I agree that broader software is one way to surf. I also think writing the
automation that puts you out of a job is another way.

Crud is never going to go away but the disequilibrium will, and many use cases
will get reduced to libraries or packages.

------
onedev
I hate the term "coder".

It's like calling a designer a "drawer".

~~~
rfrey
I like the term 'coder'. It essentializes what I do, it does not diminish it.
In my view making software is a craft, closer akin to woodworking (or
painting!) than engineering.

In my non-screen tiem I try to make beautiful things out of wood. The
"correct" term in that community for what I strive to be is "cabinetmaker". I
am not offended when people call me a carpenter. Their understanding of
"carpenter" is a bridge from their mindspace to mind.

~~~
hueving
When I hear that term though, the only thing that comes to mind is a person
who just translates requirements into one programming syntax and has next to
no thought involved in the process. No architecture, data model design, etc.

~~~
rhizome
Do those people really exist? It sounds like a stereotype. how can a person
translate a business requirement into code automatically? if that was possible
I'd think CASE tools would be more prevalent than they are.

------
emsy
In Germany there is a lot of talk about a "Fachkräftemangel", meaning a lack
of specialists, especially for IT jobs. Many IT professionals assume that the
reason is that the companies want more IT professionals so they can drive the
wages lower.

I find it amusing that the author of the article talks about a secure future,
when there are so many "everyone should code" initiatives. It seems pretty
obvious that the economy tries to drive the supply of devs high so they can
lower the wages.

Also, are developers (or "coders") really so highly paid in the US? In
Germany, the wages for devs are relatively low, despite the often summoned
"Fachkräftemangel".

------
mbesto
"“Because the purpose of business is to create a customer, the business
enterprise has two–and only two–basic functions: marketing and innovation.
Marketing and innovation produce results; all the rest are costs. Marketing is
the distinguishing, unique function of the business.”

\-- Peter Drucker

Are coders valuable? F ya. The reality is that almost every start up today is
on a chase to grab people's attention with the glittering lure of technology.
Why? Because once you get someone's attention, you can basically sell them
anything. Google, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, WhatsApp, Instagram, Pinterest,
etc etc the list goes on...valuations are all based on one metric - DAU. Why?
Because DAU means _any_ business can market and innovate their product, which
as per my Drucker quote, are the only two basic functions of a business.

PS - If the OP reads this, the "artform" of journalism is no different than a
coder writing pinterest. Coding just scales WAY better.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
love the quote - have you got a citation

(not challenging the provenance, just want to know)

~~~
mindcrime
You got me curious as well, so I went looking. According to Michael Port in
his own _Beyond Booked Solid_ , the quote is from Drucker in Drucker's _The
Practice of Management_.

[http://books.google.com/books?id=gyKbgTCs2e0C&pg=PT10&dq=%22...](http://books.google.com/books?id=gyKbgTCs2e0C&pg=PT10&dq=%22purpose+of+business+is+to+create+a+customer%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_wt4U-OfB-2nsASVu4DQBw&ved=0CJMBEOgBMA8#v=onepage&q=%22purpose%20of%20business%20is%20to%20create%20a%20customer%22&f=false)

~~~
mbesto
Yup - awesome book, it's timeless.

------
rchiba
Thanks for sharing the article, I think it was a pretty thought provoking
read. I do think that this guy has impostor's syndrome, and feels like his
accomplishments are not worth what society says they're worth. But I disagree
with his woebegone attitude about it as if it is his responsibility for the
market's behavior. And I disagree when he tries to pin the pulse of American
thought in 2014. For example, when he says that we're slowly turning to a
society where

> "I do this enough times each day that a simple association has formed in my
> mind: if you’re not technical, you’re not valuable."

That kind of mindset is abnormal, a sign that he needs to diversify his media
intake, and I don't think that represents the mainstream. If all you consume
is TC, VentureBeat, Silicon Valley, and Betas, you'll end up thinking
something along those lines. But I can tell you that out of all the people I
know, that is not what they believe. In real life, you learn that people in
sales, people in social work, people doing non-programming things in life are
just as important. As for market behavior, there are probably unfair events
happening. But I wouldn't beat myself or anyone else up about what the market
does.

And maybe the whole tech scene is more and more part of the news but I think
that it's no reason to feel doubtful about the things programmers do everyday
and their purpose no matter how mundane it may seem. The whole idea of purpose
in my mind is a bit pretentious. Why does it always seem like purpose is
equated to the lowest tier on maslow's hierarchy of needs? Is a doctor in a
hospital more morally purposeful than a programmer at Snapchat? We're living
on a rock in the middle of space, on a speck of dust. Purpose is what you make
of it. Snapchat helps me keep in touch with my sister. Facebook lets me keep
track of my friend's birthdays. I met my girlfriend of 7 months on Coffee
Meets Bagel. I'm achieving self-actualization though these mundane products.
I'm grateful for everyone working on those products. And I feel appreciated by
customers of my social media marketing software, marketers who have just saved
themselves a boatload of time and hassle. So I don't beat myself up because I
work in marketing and advertising because I know that I helped someone. And as
long as you too feel appreciated and help another human being out, I think the
whole moral argument is bunk.

------
noir_lord
'Coders' who knows.

Programmers are definitely worth it, if you spend $10K on a programmer to
build a system who writes a system that makes a process that used to take 3
people 2 days and now takes 1 person an afternoon to complete then the RoI is
clear (the last system I put into production actually saved that amount of
time).

Silicon Valley and the start-up scene grossly distorts the whole argument
because of the insane salaries paid to developers on "It's facesmash
right..but for dachshunds".

Outside of the reality distortion field, there are thousands (if not millions)
of developers building unsexy workmanlike products that supply a need for a
business and reduces costs by more than they cost to develop.

My "startup" is not sexy, I don't care about j-curves, accelerators, user
trends or anything else, it is simply a well engineered (hopefully!) solution
to a regulatory requirement for a specific industry, in theory I can reduce
several days worth of tedious and error prone paperwork to an hour at most and
make it an intrinsic part of the company and project.

When it comes to hiring I won't by hiring "coders", I'll be hiring
programmers.

Now get off my lawn ;).

------
Htsthbjig
The writer talks about Hemingway, he should learn from Hemingway to express
himself in less words. Hemingway learned from news reporting.

I personally know people that writes professionally, including Nobel prices in
Spanish literature(I organized writers meetings, specially promising young
people with already famous ones). Most of them do not believe writing is hard.

In fact I remember Francisco Umbral being asked about it, how he could write
something everyday for the newspaper. He said it was extremely easy, you could
always find something interesting if you think about it.

Thinking writing is hard is a self fulfillment prophecy.

About working hard, coders do not do all the work, that is the question. Most
of the work is done by a machine, the computer, like current coal miners, they
use machines for doing 95% of the work, from drilling holes for explosives to
removing material.

They(the miners) also earn lots of money, and breathing issues are improved
with machines too(full masks). The reason the retired at 40(with full pension)
in places like Spain.

So working hard is not that important anymore, when machines are the ones who
work hard. Those do not suffer or feel bad or exhausted.

Some people believe that work for being worth something needs tears, sweat and
blood. Martyr psychology.

------
nmac
First, I agree with the sentiments of some of the above commenters, "coders"
just sounds ridiculous.

Now, this question is ambiguous between two different interpretations of being
"worth it". Clearly engineers are "worth it" by any economic metric--viz. high
employment rates and high salaries (when mean rates are compared to other
disciplines/jobs). But I take the OP to have an existential dimension built
into the query. Meaning: does a hacker value what she does when contrasted
against what she could be doing? So, whether or not hackers value what they do
is completely different from what they do being worth while. Perhaps someone
working on something at Google may value what she does less than working on
her own startup idea. In this respect, to each his own.

------
kevonc
Yes, there are a ton of tools that help us software engineers, but to put
together a software it still takes a ton of expertise to piece it together.
Let's talk about Finance, are traders not provided with excellent tools? Are
analyst not provided with Factset or Bloomberg to give them insights? The
whole world works like that, not just software development.

------
qwerta
Free soda and beer are worth a few dollars a month.

Just compare dollar evaluation; managers, salesman or even HR are more
valuable.

------
Im_Talking
The most valuable developers are the ones that also have a good understanding
of the business-side. A very valuable skill is the ability to talk to the
business-types in their language. You become their conduit into the tech-world
and they trust you. Most business-types are scared of the technical world.

------
NhanH
The essay starts out with a good premise, but in the end, he seems to have
conclude that "fair market price" is equivalent to the added value to the
society of the job. That seems quite a bit off of a conclusion to me.

~~~
orborde
Not exactly. I read "I know this because of all the money they give me" as
somewhat tongue-in-cheek, like he's saying something he wants to believe, that
the world tells him to believe, but cannot help questioning the truth of.

------
krapp
>In today’s world, web developers have it all: money, perks, freedom, respect.
But is there value in what we do?

Sorry, no. The author needs to pull his head out of the bubble. In today's
world (the actual world), web developers and programmers are given less
credence than assembly line workers, and are considered at best a necessary
evil in businesses where the actual product, itself, is something other than
code. Money? As little as possible. Perks? Perks go to sales. Respect? It's
not even considered real work.

Granted, it's not flipping hamburgers but let's not pretend what the author
describes is in any way the norm.

~~~
ForHackernews
Are you kidding me? I think maybe _you_ need to get out of your bubble and go
work a real job for a while. Go work in food service, construction, or retail,
which is what most of America is doing.

Then maybe you'll appreciate the marvelous advantages you have as somebody who
gets paid pretty damn well to sit in front of a blinky box and think about
elegant abstractions.

~~~
krapp
I've worked in all of those fields. I know exactly how much easier programming
is than roofing and sanding boats and unloading trucks. Nevertheless, outside
of a select few, most programmers are assembly line workers with better
chairs.

~~~
thinnerlizzy
Agree. It's why I got out of full-time, on-site programming. If I'm going to
be doing it, it's going to be on my terms. And the freelance market has been
pretty responsive to that.

------
jqm
Are computers worth it? Well then... there is your answer!

------
michaelochurch
Junior programmer (22): makes $80-100k, 120k in the Bay Area. Easily gets
jobs.

Senior programmer (28): 5-10 times as valuable as the junior. Makes $120-140k,
possibly 150k. Serious stock options possible with the right company. Three-
month job searches.

Expert programmer (37): 3-5 times as valuable as the senior, so 15-50 times as
valuable as the junior. Makes $150-200k. Leaves the Bay Area/NYC because he
can't afford to raise kids there. Has a defined specialty. Job searches take
6-8 months because he's overqualified for everything but high-level positions,
and those in his specialty number in the single-digits nationally.

Master programmer (45): TO;DH.

This industry pays well at the entry-level ( _if_ you went to a reputable
college, live in the right city, know where to look and how to play the game)
but doesn't have a clue when it comes to rewarding excellence. Getting better
tends to backfire when this industry (being run by dumbass MBA types)
continues to insist on structuring itself like a pyramid.

~~~
notduncansmith
The salary depends a lot on where you are. Junior programmers in my area can't
expect to make more than ~$40k (just below Alabama's median income). I would
love to have the $80k salary that you claim "junior" programmers make (and
like to consider myself closer to senior, given the options you presented).
Maybe it's because I live in the wrong city, or didn't go to a reputable
college, or am looking in the wrong places. My point is, it's difficult to
feel privileged with a below-average income. There's something to be said for
the environment: the (average quality) office chairs, the incredibly smart
people I get to be around on a daily basis, having a job that allows me to
prop my feet up and work off my laptop all day.

It's not something I take for granted, don't get me wrong; I just have a hard
time feeling like I have it so much better than the guy who cleans the floors.
Considering that I probably only make ~10-15k more per year and had to work
considerably harder to get where I am, and that I have to work much harder day
to day, we're probably about even.

~~~
malvosenior
Out of curiosity, what language do you develop in? I've only ever heard of
salaries as low as what you're quoting for MS stuff.

You should demand more, our field pays more. Don't let your location hold you
back. Move if you have to, but possibly switch to a different stack.

Junior devs should be making no less than 75k regardless of location and
really, if you're good, 90+.

~~~
notduncansmith
I work as a full-stack developer and UI/UX designer, specializing in Node.js
on the backend. I've been working a bit with Go lately in my free time. I also
work at an agency, so that may affect my salary as compared to working on,
say, a SaaS product.

Out of my own curiosity, where would I seek a 75-90k salary where the cost of
living doesn't negate the increase?

~~~
sheepmullet
I hope I don't come across as a dick but it sounds like your skills don't
really match your location. I'm sure there are 10x as many .net/java roles in
your area than node.js ones. Outside of a few major tech hubs the well paying
jobs that will pay $70-$80k for a junior are more "boring" corporate roles.

~~~
notduncansmith
You don't sound dickish at all, and you're absolutely right that there are
more "enterprise-y" roles here than Node. In fact, the shop I'm at now is one
of probably less than 10 companies in the entire state that would hire anyone
to do Node. During my time here I've racked up over 2000 hours working in
Node.js alongside some very bright people, and it's a technology I feel quite
bullish on. I'm always trying to learn and grow as a developer, but I feel a
lot more comfortable working in technologies like Node or Go than something
like Java. That said, I'm not opposed to JVM offshoots like Clojure, which I
find fascinating.

------
mantrax5
Good designers, good developers, good <insert profession here> have an acute
sense of where their role is in the business.

Employees who have an unclear idea of what they're doing or why they're doing
it, also don't have their focus on improving their company and the lives of
their customers. Hence they'd often make arbitrary decisions regarding how to
prioritize their limited resources (time, money, which features go into the
next milestone etc.). And in this way they may end up dragging the company
down.

An employee asking themselves "am I worth it" can be a sign of a dysfunctional
company culture, or the problem may lie with the employee, but wherever the
blame lies, people who don't know their worth are in the long run not worth
that much to their company, fad and cargo cult caused disbalances
notwithstanding.

~~~
kevinwang
It looks like the title question posed by the author is more about "worth" to
improving society as a whole, rather than "worth" of improving the business of
the company.

~~~
mantrax5
If those are in opposition, the author should probably quit his job. There's a
good number of companies whose basic purpose lies in improving society.

------
krick
I feel that after removing all unnecessary words from the essay, the rest 10
would be make something either trivial or arguable.

