
Guide to where your cofounders should live in the SF Bay - rantfoil
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=111291639665197066699.00048b3c0d910bf1a232a
======
PStamatiou
+1 for the mission. moved to a studio here 2 months ago (from Atlanta) and
love the area. Amazing restaurants everywhere. tons of great coffee shops to
work out of. Mission Beach Cafe, Four Barrel Coffee, Ritual Coffee Roasters.
Bi-Rite market has amazing sandwiches (and the creamery has great ice cream).
Delfina Pizzeria is fantastic. Frjtz has great fries (get the thai chili
ketchup!). Limon has some nice bbq chicken appetizers and they know how to
make a capirinha. Luna Park has holy-shit-amazing warm goat cheese fondue (and
some great smores). Random mediterranean place on 16th & mission does great
shwarma for a few bucks. A short walk up to hayes valley has Patxi's pizza, La
Boulange and Samovar Tea Lounge, where you'll often find Kevin Rose.

However -

I'm in a good part of the mission (near dolores) and every other day there is
new graffiti on my building, trash everywhere on the streets and broken glass
here and there.

related: my moving to SF post [http://paulstamatiou.com/atlanta-to-san-
francisco-moving-cro...](http://paulstamatiou.com/atlanta-to-san-francisco-
moving-cross-country)

~~~
sh1mmer
Carlos (aristus) and I co-work/hack from cafes in the mission on Wednesdays.
Current choice is Sugar Lump at 24th and Byrant.

We'd love people to join us.

~~~
il
I'm planning on moving to SF(probably Mission) to work on my startup in about
a month or so. It would be great to connect with others doing something
similar, send me an email ilya -at- unviral.com .

------
rdl
Palo Alto, if you can pick the right property, also has the benefit of metro
fiber. If you can find a house or office on the right street (Waverly, a few
others; ask at City Hall, the fiber utility guy is awesome), you can pay about
$2-3k to get linked in, and then have your own fiber for $600/mo from
home/office to PAIX. From there, it's pretty easy to get a wave crossconnect
to one of the big datacenters in SF or the Peninsula.

For me, I'm willing to pay the extra $1k/mo to rent a house in Palo Alto vs.
Mountain View or Menlo Park specifically so I can do this. Having fiber
directly to your colo, when you're working on big data, moving virtual
machines, etc., is amazing. If you live with cofounders and use it as an
office, or live with 3-4 other people and split the cost, it really isn't that
bad.

Otherwise, I look for Web Pass connected buildings up in SF, or buildings that
have IP Networks fiber over PG&E. Those are mainly in SoMA, although some in
the east bay around Emeryville/Berkeley/Oakland.

~~~
lsc
oh man. do you have maps or other resources that describe where this sort of
thing is available?

~~~
rdl
centered around university, waverly, and bryant.

I know 365 Forest (condo building) would have been about $3k to add, since the
fiber was in the basement.

There is a utilities guy at city hall who has maps, but I don't have the
current ones (I last checked in 2008).

When I move back to SFBA next year, I am either getting a house with fiber in
PA, or a condo with IP Networks fiber up in 8th/Folsom area of SoMA. 10GE for
the win

It would be an interesting niche to work with landlords to wire up their
properties, set up some colo space, and rent out house + cage/racks + fiber on
a quarterly basis to startup teams. I'd much prefer a (really nice) house,
shared with team, to a bunch of crappy apartments, a daily commute, and an
office-building office. Although at that point, fixed wireless becomes an
option too..

[http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/depts/utl/news/details.asp?New...](http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/depts/utl/news/details.asp?NewsID=467&TargetID=10,11,12)

~~~
lsc
hm. I wonder if this is public data, and how many people would sue me if I
went through the effort to dig it up and publish it? many price quotes in the
co-location industry are protected by NDA... I wonder if fiber locations are
too?

~~~
rdl
private fiber maps are sometimes kept private (post 9-11) on vague "anti-
terrorism" grounds.

however, the palo alto metro fiber map is public. I just don't happen to have
a copy on my iPad, sorry.

~~~
lsc
wow... this comment is hit 4 on my google search for "palo alto metro fiber
map" and the rest seem to be fairly useless. I'll spend some time poking
around and maybe contact the city after I sleep.

but thanks, this is useful.

------
a4agarwal
The funny thing here is that I'm Garry's cofounder, and I don't live in any of
the neighborhoods he recommends. Maybe he's trying to tell me to move :)

When Garry and I moved to SF to start Posterous, we moved to SOMA since
apartments are abundant and it's startup central. But I found little value in
being near other companies. What I did find was a lack of food and culture.

Posterous first got offices in North Beach. I really LOVE North Beach. There's
amazing food and it's a beautiful part of town. Plus Jam Legend is there.

+1 for the Mission. We love our new offices. Much cheaper than anywhere else
in the city, most people can walk to bike to work, tons of great food, near
Bart. We couldn't ask for much more.

However, one point of disagreement with Garry's map: you can't simply write
off everything north of Market. Sometimes it seems like people south of market
(SOMA and Mission) don't cross north as much as they should. There's a lot of
city up there!

San Francisco is one of the greatest cities in the world. If you decide to
base your company here, don't optimize to be close to Twitter. Optimize to be
in a vibrant neighborhood with great food and great culture.

Believe me, even north of market, you will have no problem immersing yourself
in startup culture and surrounding yourself with more tech entrepreneurs than
you can handle.

~~~
ajg1977
+1 for North Beach :)

It seems to have a rep for being pricey, but there are many areas of North
Beach/Russian Hill that are no more expensive than the nicer parts of SOMA.

I also really wouldn't recommend to anyone living around Market St between
10th and 6th. Really not a nice area.

------
jey
Don't forget Berkeley: affordable, interesting, and very easy to get to SF.
(Only a 25 min BART ride.)

I would never again live in Mountain View because it's too damn boring. Palo
Alto might be tolerable.

~~~
axod
Boring? I love Mountain View and Palo Alto. Lovely little towns where you can
walk everywhere. I guess it depends what you like doing though.

~~~
abstractbill
Totally agree.

Having lived in London, I personally find San Francisco to have a lot of the
downsides of being a "big city", without _actually_ being a big city and so
not having enough of the upsides (just to take one example, MUNI/BART is a
joke compared to London's tube system).

I love Palo Alto and Mountain View though, and would live in either town again
in a heartbeat.

~~~
cageface
_Exactly_. I get blank stares when I make this point around here but S.F. is
big enough to be expensive, dirty, and sometimes dangerous but there's very
little literary, musical, or otherwise artistic culture here and people just
don't seem to be very intellectually curious outside of tech. If you're not
into running around naked and high in the desert you'll have a hard time
finding a social circle. Mass transit here is terrible and so is traffic and
parking.

You can live _well_ here but not _deeply_.

~~~
axod
>> "and sometimes dangerous"

The number of homeless/crazy people on the streets surprises me when I'm in
SF. I know many are probably harmless, but crazy people jumping around,
shouting abuse, or acting weird just doesn't make things inviting. Not to
mention the beggars at the stop signs.

Is there a system in the US for looking after mentally unstable people? eg
would they be put into care if they don't have medical insurance?

~~~
anamax
> Is there a system in the US for looking after mentally unstable people? eg
> would they be put into care if they don't have medical insurance?

SF, like most large US cities, has lots of unused shelter and facilities.
However, they're voluntary and many people won't volunteer.

------
neilk
I moved to the Inner Richmond (sort of by accident, long story) and I'm
surprised at how great the neighborhood is. It may be better just for living,
but I think it could be practical for a penny-pinching startup too.

\- Much cheaper rents

\- Services: lots of restaurants, especially Asian, many open very late (you
have lots of options even from midnight to 3AM), bookstores, bars.

\- If you pick your location properly (close to California or Geary, and near
certain stops) you can catch express buses to and from downtown at peak hours.
20-25 min to a BART station or SOMA. Off-peak it's more like 30-40 min.

\- Unlike SOMA, my cell phone works here ;)

\- Downsides: no techie neighbors, except Archive.org who recently took over
the old Christian Science building on Park Presidio & Clement.

Just generally, the place feels like a real neighborhood rather than some sort
of Potemkin village constructed for yuppies or hipsters. That's important to
me, anyway.

~~~
geebee
I lived in the inner richmond while I was working down the peninsula. I agree
with everything you've said about the neighborhood - a lot of good bars,
inexpensive restaurants, quick access to downtown on express buses, cheaper
rents.

Huge downside: very difficult to get south on the freeways. There's no clear
path, so you have to fight your way through city traffic. At rush hour, this
can easily add 25 aggravating minutes to your commute (and add in an extra
10-15 minutes to find parking in the inner richmond). Really, it's a lot
easier to live in the city and work south from the south-central neighborhoods
(sunnyside, glen park, mission terrace, bernal).

Ultimately, I'd say that if you work downtown and only need to go to the
valley now and then, the inner richmond is a great pick. But if you're in a
daily commute type situation going south, I'd avoid it.

------
usaar333
Pretty cool map.

One note: I discourage Millbrae. I grew up there and it was on the boring side
of things, while still being a tad pricey. My life is (somewhat) more exciting
living in northeastern Sunnyvale (near Hacker Dojo), and rent is dirt cheap
(as low as $450/person). Also, for the carless, biking is much better in
Sunnyvale/Mountain View than Millbrae.

~~~
rantfoil
I've never lived in Sunnyvale. Where would you recommend? Near downtown?

Also agree about Millbrae being boring. I put it there because its kind of a
sweet spot due to multiple transit options (both Caltrain and BART). Most
startups will be either heads down coding, or heading to meetings. Mainly good
if you don't have a car.

~~~
usaar333
millbrae without an car seems tough. I'm sure it is done, but ultimately it is
auto based suburbia.

Downtown should be relatively cheap.I personally live in the cherry chase
area.

------
jeb
What is the most ghetto part of SF? Like if you had absolutely no fear of
getting stabbed by a crackhead girlfriend and your kidneys being harvested if
you roll down your windows, where would you live?

Also, does one need to show some type of credit report or can one just come in
with a bunch of cash and wave it around and get a place?

~~~
pz
tenderloin probably has the highest density of crackheads. if you want to get
your kidneys harvested i'd go to chinatown or the sunset because i just assume
that the chinese are the only ones sophisticated enough to steal and then sell
organs. (crackheads just don't have the resources to pull something like that
off)

i lived in the tenderloin for a year and some change and i kind of liked it.
there's good night life on polk street and good cheap eats there. i had four
indian restaurants within a block of my apartment and could walk to the great
american music hall or BART. but it takes a certain kind of person to live
amongst that kind of drudgery for so long.

if you want true danger, head down to bayview and hunters point. even the
tenderloin has its share of wine bars and quaint coffee shops. the 'view is
like another world.

~~~
catch23
the danger in the tenderloin is definitely overrated. People who think the
tenderloin is dangerous has obviously never lived in places like NYC, Atlanta,
or St. Louis. You could get mugged in broad daylight in Atlanta and the cops
won't even blink. I've seen it happen.

~~~
rdl
I lived in the loin around 2003, pretty much at the worst part (6th/Jones). It
was bad enough that I got hassled on the streets by drug dealers when I stood
outside (I think they assumed I was involved in the business somehow?), and
female friends would be really reluctant to visit without an escort to/from
BART. I had 2 guys get shot right outside my door, and the police didn't come
by to take a statement from me until the next day (I happened to be looking
out the window right at the time, and called it in 5 seconds after it
happened).

It's definitely gotten better since the 1990s, but I still would really not
want to live there and do a startup.

It's nothing compared to HP, Bayview, EPA, parts of East San Jose, or parts of
Oakland, though. When in the area, I often am driving to HP at night (to go to
200 Paul Ave, one of the big datacenters on the West Coast), and I'm always
relieved when the gate closes behind my car.

The mission has some bad areas too; unfortunately the area right outside
Noisebridge is actually pretty sketchy.

------
mattmaroon
"amazing startup vibe (literally buzzing)"

Either they have an electrical problem or you misused the word "literally".

~~~
hugh3
Maybe it's a big hub for startups in the apiary sector.

~~~
philwelch
Or the vuvuzela industry.

------
Derferman
As a current Berkeley student / start-up intern, I would definitely recommend
looking into living on the north side of Berkeley. The neighborhood is quiet
and the city is only a short (25 min) BART ride away.

------
hawflakes
Not even a mention of where YouTube grew up? Downtown San Mateo is pretty
nice. Thread is there as are a bunch of other smallish startups.

Foodwise, there are plenty of options though in my estimation there is one
great hot pot place "Little Sheep Mongolian Hot Pot", a shabu-shabu place,
what seem to be three(?) izakaya places and several ramen shops, too.

~~~
adrianscott
Napster was there too. Pretty quick to get to SF or Palo Alto.

------
b3b0p
I like how it's broken out and a nice basic list of what is good and bad for a
startup / hacker, but for most people won't it come down to cost? What they
can comfortably and reasonably afford?

I have never been to California, but I want to check it out someday, possibly
give a try as a place to live for a while. I quick googled apartments in Palo
Alto because it sounded like the ideal location for me. The cheapest one I saw
looked exactly like the place I have now but was > $1000 / month (counter
tops, layout, size, etc). I'm currently paying $475 for one of the better 1 br
here (Oklahoma). The most expensive I have seen is < $900 here for a 1 br in
the newest upscale places with every little bill paid included.

So, unless the pay is significantly higher for the same work that I'm making
here, I want to know how people deal with the cost of living in the areas
provided in this link? Do you live paycheck to paycheck? Do you save much (I'm
saving about 2/3 of my paycheck each month)? I wouldn't want to live in a
rundown area with holes in the wall (I have lived in such a place) eating only
ramen or the cheapest ground beef on discount from the local grocer. Maybe I
just should not be looking at Palo Alto.

I will check these areas when I take some time off to travel out there and I
will be doing that someday, hopefully not too far in the future.

I'm grateful to the OP for providing this link. Living out here in OK, having
never visited CA/SanFran this provides a better overview of the different
parts of the area you often read about on here from people.

~~~
ojbyrne
The pay is significantly higher. But probably not enough to make up for the
increased rent. Many people share, or live in studios.

But the climate is probably also better (warmer in the winter, cooler in the
summer), so being cramped is less of an issue.

------
davidw
Soma is "Most yuppie / soulless area to live in SF" ?

When I was there, that was the Marina / Cow Hollow. Funny how quickly things
change. When I moved down there in 1999, a friend of a friend told me to avoid
SOMA if I "didn't like getting stabbed", but I guess that's mostly been
gentrified at this point. It was already starting to improve back then.

~~~
rantfoil
SOMA just has a rather metallic personality. The rest of SF generally has a
lot of history and character. SOMA is mainly young urban professionals, many
of whom commute to Silicon Valley or peninsula jobs via Caltrain or driving
(easy access via 280). Restaurants are on the expensive side, and often
overpriced (though there are gems) and I just didn't enjoy living there very
much compared to the Mission or even Castro St in Mtn View.

------
dillydally
This maps excludes lots of livable areas in SF like Hayes Valley, Lower
Haight, and the Duboce Triangle (where Justin.tv was, many moons ago).

If you don't care about access to public transit then I think its totally
reasonable to expand that to places like Nob Hill or North Beach.

It also excludes all of College Terrace in Palo Alto.

------
rms
I came close to signing a lease for a place across the street from the Glen
Park BART station before choosing Berkeley. The Glen Park area seems
underrated.

------
tlrobinson
I'll throw out my vote for the Haight and Hayes Valley in SF, they're pretty
laid back, and there's surprising number of tech people.

Just ignore all the 18 year old fauxbos in upper Haight, theyre harmless.

------
charlesju
I love the "Most yuppie / soulless area to live in SF" aka SoMA. It's also the
most practical.

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ahemphill
I'm moving to SF in 10 days and I'd like to know the best way to go about
securing an apartment. I've been trolling Craigslist for a couple weeks but
have not received one response despite in-depth emails. Should I just have my
credit report, a couple grand and the ability to drop everything and go look
at a place? My friend (who, unfortunately for me, is moving from the Mission
to Berkeley) suggested that a lot of people just leave things 'til the last
minute. Any insight would be appreciated.

~~~
keefe
I lived in SF for a few years and I'm about to go back after dealing with some
family nonsense, so I've given this some thought.

There is huge variability in the SF housing market and great deals tend to go
quick. I'd put my stuff in storage and stay at a long term hotel for a few
weeks and be really careful about this, after all you're talking about
spending 12-20K a year.

You can get a decent hotel around the airport for like $60 on hotwire, which
is really pretty cheap for SF.

<http://www.housingmaps.com/> This is useful.

>despite in-depth emails Too long and you'll get no response just like any
other CL ad?

One random note : some places require a social security card.

~~~
ahemphill
Luckily I'll be able to crash with the aforementioned friend for about a week
— any longer than that and I'll have to hit up acquaintances or dole out for a
hotel or a place on Airbnb.

As for the Social Security card, hopefully that's not commonly a dealbreaker…

Thanks for the advice.

~~~
shaddi
Just to echo what keefe said, I successfully apartment hunted a few weeks ago
and did what you're planning: crash with a friend for a week and obsessively
read Craigslist. Something that helped me get a feel for the area was
biking/walking around the general vicinity of where I was wanting to live
(Berkeley). A lot of apartments have signs outside stating they're for rent
too; in general though, Craigslist is pretty comprehensive.

One other point: come with your checkbook and be ready to put down a deposit
on the spot. Don't rush your decision of course, but places go /fast/ and
you'll want to act quickly to ensure the place you're looking for doesn't get
taken.

------
patrickk
This is a great map. I'm considering moving from Europe to SV after my work
contract expires to do a startup...so really useful.

It would be very cool to get a similar map of HN startup locations, IT giants'
original garage (YouTube etc), well known web 2.0 startups locations
etc....obviously some of these won't be easily available due to founders not
willing to divulge their location...would still be cool all the same.

------
cloudkj
Berkeley all the way. North side of campus is quiet and cheap, and I'm sure
you can get rent down to the $700s if you share a house/apartment. It's also
close to all the engineering buildings, so any interns you want to hire will
be within shouting distance. South side has more (cheap) food options though,
but it's also less quiet and more messy (Telegraph, etc).

~~~
starkfist
I lived in Berkeley for a year. The main problem with Berkeley is that if you
work in Silicon Valley, the commute truly sucks.

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rms
Anyone looking for a place to stay, send me an email. There is an extra room
available in my 5BR house in North Berkeley, available right now. ~$750/month
+utilities.

Live with hacker types, and... me. If you're interested, send me an email and
tell me about yourself, what you're looking for in a housing situation, etc.

------
charliepark
What's the north side of Mission Bay like? I'm not in SF, but "strolling" down
Berry on Google Maps, it seems like it's _really_ nice. Anybody on HN live in
that area?

~~~
amitt
i live there, expect 1500-1800 a month per person on rent for a 2bd room in
one of the high rises. The apartments are all new, though with W/D in unit and
other good amenities.

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katskatfeva
Hi, I'm bootstrapping, just recently moved to SF. Generally clueless of the
goings'on around here other than there's stuff goings'on. What should I check
out?

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paradox95
I will go out on a limb here and say you live in Berkeley. The description
should read "Recommended for foodie hackers who don't mind hippies and
homeless."

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tholex
Here's a sweet mashup, was posted to Netted yesterday:

<http://nabewise.com/sf/nabefinder>

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pz
i think there is a bug in his description of the mission. i think Garry meant
to say east of valencia

~~~
rantfoil
Thanks, you're right. Fixed!

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dnsworks
This is sort of silly. You can put your start-up anywhere in San Francisco and
be reasonably close to the start-up community. The only real benefit to being
in SOMA that I see is that it's easier to stumble to events straight after
work like SFBeta, New Tech, or any of the various tech parties that happen
within 3 blocks of Moscone (including but not limited to conference related
parties). Having lived and worked at 3rd & Folsom for the past year and a
half, I've become somewhat tired of spending so much time around the start-up
community. All restaurants within 3 blocks of my apartment are filled with
people talking about Twitter, constantly.

A cool start-up would get office space in the Outer Richmond so you can hike
around Land's End every day before you start working, or maybe up in Nob Hill
so you're essentially forcing your employees to use public transit some part
of the day, giving them that 15 minutes of zen before work.

------
hi12345
perfect

