
Open source groups warn Greece will waste millions on school software - Tsiolkovsky
http://joinup.ec.europa.eu/news/open-source-groups-warn-greece-will-waste-millions-school-software
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dalai
Actually it seems that it wasn't a request for tenders but a request for
public comments on a tender plan. Along with Greeklug, Microsoft Hellas and
other companies also submitted comments. Funnily enough, Microsoft Hellas
feels that the nature of the proposed tender favors open source solutions and
eliminates MS Office from the competition.

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carlesfe
Open source/Free software should be used by governments not because it's
gratis, but rather because it can be audited and modified by public servants.

Implementing a free solution costs money in training, deployment, etc. But I'd
rather pay that price than having a company lock my government data.

~~~
quasque
Microsoft does make its source code available under the "Government Security
Program", so a similar level of auditing is possible.

I don't quite understand the problem with governments not being able to modify
proprietary source code though - where is the practical disadvantage?

~~~
guard-of-terra
Proprietary software comes as a huge blob of compiled code. Most often you
can't just throw any part of that code away - it will "void the warranty". And
you certainly can't check all the code in that blob.

With open source, you can customize your systems to a great extent. You also
employ local specialists to do so. And you can make minimal systems for
critical applications. With predictable behavior. Ones that don't message box
or screen saver on you.

~~~
quasque
I do understand that there are useful applications for open source software
(I've used it myself for a few projects), but in the context of providing
laptops for students and servers for running the school IT infrastructure
there really does not seem to be any huge advantage. What possible
customisations would be required to the core source code of Microsoft's
Windows and Office to have them work more effectively in an educational
environment?

~~~
guard-of-terra
The grandparent was arguing about governments in general, not just education.

~~~
quasque
My point still stands. Why would a government need to modify the source code
of Windows or Office? Any customisations or modifications to the stock install
would be done by reconfiguring parts of it using the standard tools, or by
writing (or purchasing) additional software.

~~~
DanBC
A government might want to check that the blob isn't opening access to closed
networks; or secretly collecting data somewhere; or secretly adding hidden
meta data to documents.

~~~
quasque
Source code is not required for such auditing, it just makes it easier in some
ways. Anyway, the main method of distribution of open source software is as
precompiled binaries so the same issue arises there.

~~~
gizmo686
If the binary blob does not match the source code, that will be discovered
quickly. Also, if the Government (or other entity) is doing an audit, it does
not seem like much work to compile from source.

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mtgx
A mega-list of open source software (for the skeptics):

[http://www.datamation.com/open-source/open-source-
software-t...](http://www.datamation.com/open-source/open-source-software-the-
mega-list-1.html)

By the way, there's also a petition to promote open source software in
American schoos, too:

[https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/promote-use-
free-s...](https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/promote-use-free-
software-our-schools-libre-office-gimp-gnu-cash-and-other-gpl-software-which-
cost/T1xGw1fZ)

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rbanffy
> "The specification is a copy of the proprietary vendor's e-mail and office
> software."

I wonder who could have written the spec.

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codeflo
Tongue in cheek: How many millions of lost GDP will it cost Greece, a few
years down the line, to have a workforce not trained in standard business
software?

~~~
nspattak
1) Do you really think that someone who can do "standard business tasks" on
linux will be unable to do it on Windows?

2) Perhaps you have not heard or understood that people are dying of hunger or
freezing from cold because the government has increased taxes on food,
electricity, gas and oil/petrol. This is not the majority of course, but they
are enough.

3) MS products are "standard business" in your business. That does not mean it
is for every one nor that it should be.

4) Schools are not training centers for businesses. For god sake, public
education is about other values, not creating what some businesses require.

~~~
codeflo
1) Yes. People who were proficient in Office 2003 needed special training to
use Office 2007. There's a real cost to switching tools.

2) Holy cow, that's a loaded argument: "Use Linux or people will starve!!!"

3) Agreed.

4) Fully agreed.

~~~
guard-of-terra
"1) Yes. People who were proficient in Office 2003 needed special training to
use Office 2007. There's a real cost to switching tools." This is actually a
strong argument for the futility of windows and office-oriented teaching. Why
bother if the skills willl become obsolete in four years?

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ignaciogiri
I do not agree with the word 'waste'.

~~~
guard-of-terra
Those are money packed in a box and send to USA.

Open source would have caused Greece to spend a part of that money inside the
country, employing local specialists.

~~~
quasque
They will need to hire (or continue to hire) local specialists to install and
maintain the software though. I would not be surprised if the wage cost is
higher than the cost of the software.

~~~
guard-of-terra
But those money remain in the country and make its economy feel better.
Increase consumer spendings and yada yada. Money that you ship off (even after
tax) make it worse.

~~~
quasque
Sorry I misworded my comment, I meant that local specialists will be needed
for commercial software too, to install and maintain it.

~~~
guard-of-terra
If the commercial software needs as much specialists to support, what's the
point anyway? The whole idea of commercial software is outsourcing work
instead of doing everything in-house.

~~~
quasque
Well, it depends on the software. If we're talking about Windows and Office,
they're very high quality, standard pieces of software that are an excellent
choice for the educational market. As well as having a larger number of people
already experienced in using them, both as users and specialists.

For example, it's worth paying for Windows Server just for how much easier it
is to run large deployments of PCs and users from it using Active Directory,
group policies and suchlike. Rather than hacking something up in Linux or
whatever.

Your argument assumes that the commercial and open-source offerings are equal
in quality and features, when in fact the major commercial software is far
superior.

My argument isn't an abstract commercial vs open-source one: it all hinges on
the quality of the software: if Microsoft suddenly open-sourced their entire
operating system and productivity suites, they would still be the top choice
in my book.

~~~
guard-of-terra
You can employ mixed approach. For example, buy Windows while using
OpenOffice.org.

But I argue that for large-scale development it is feasible to develop a Linux
distribution that will fit schools better than Windows ever does. With
everything school workplace needs, installable in one click.

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reinhardt
"seeking suppliers of 26,400 laptops, 1760 servers and 1760 wifi access
routers".

Laptops? Seriously? Is the premium for buying laptops instead of desktops for
school computers really justified, especially under the dire economic
situation?

~~~
edtechdev
Yes, they are given to students, not set up in a static computer lab. It's
called 1-to-1 computing, and it can be more effective for learning than only
giving very limited access to a computer lab. I hope they budgeted for
training and professional development though, otherwise it will not be as
effective: [http://www.eschoolnews.com/2010/02/16/11-programs-only-as-
go...](http://www.eschoolnews.com/2010/02/16/11-programs-only-as-good-as-
their-teachers/)

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quasque
A major advantage of them using Microsoft Windows and Office instead of the
open source alternatives, is the high quality Greek internationalisation of
the software. The same can not be said of the open source offerings.

~~~
guard-of-terra
"The same can not be said of the open source offerings" [citation needed]

~~~
quasque
Here is one example of inferior Greek internationalisation:

<http://www.openoffice.org/el/>

"We need your help to complete the translation of Apache OpenOffice 3.4 into
Greek!

"This note is in English because we have no one to translate it into your
language. The links on the page will help you download and install
OpenOffice.org 3.3.0, an older version of our product. It is missing many bug
fixes, performance enhancements and even new features that are in Apache
OpenOffice 3.4.

"We would be happy to make Apache OpenOffice 3.4 available in Greek, but we
need help completing the translation of the user interface."

Whereas the latest version of Microsoft Office has a full and comprehensive
Greek translation as standard, upon release, done by professionals.

