

John Gruber and friends launch Vesper note capture app - orrsella
http://9to5mac.com/2013/06/06/daring-fireballs-john-gruber-and-friends-launch-vesper-note-capture-app/

======
bonaldi
Thinking that sync is optional is a really weird thing that seems to linger in
the Apple world.

You know the old William Gibson line that cyberspace is the place where
telephone conversations happen? Not in the hardware at either end, but in the
"space between"? Computing has moved there too.

Work used to happen on a device and then was transferred to other devices,
either manually (floppies, email) or later automatically (sync, dropbox).
Thanks to the web, mobile devices and lots of data, that's changed: Google
Apps led the way, but Evernote etc all let you do your work in the _space
between_ devices.

Nowadays, putting the device first over the data (or ignoring other devices
entirely, like this app does) is like putting the phone first over the call:
beautiful, elegant hardware, refined way to dial, custom typeface for the
numbers ... but you can't call anyone with it.

Apple in particular makes this mistake repeatedly. Photostream is device-
first, so you have to work out what the hell is where and work out what you
want to download to which machine. iTunes Match is device-first, so you're
forever downloading and deleting tracks to make space on a particular device.
Me.com tries to keep the sync truth on one of your devices, so conflicts
abound. Notifications appear on all devices and often have to be dismissed
individually on each of them. They see the world through the device first.

I suppose it's obvious why it happens -- they're a hardware company, and they
grew up in a pre-networked world -- but I think misunderstanding this is one
key reason they're seen as "bad at services" in comparison to Google, which is
instinctively and entirely in "the space between devices".

As for this app, why would I ever want to be trapped in a single place again?
They might as well have made it for an SE/30.

~~~
josephlord
I find sync that requires an account a negative factor. There are many notes I
wouldn't want to share with Google.

Also as soon as you offer sync you need to have a conflict resolution approach
and there is no way to always resolve in a clean way without user
intervention.

~~~
frou_dh
The time for punting on sync because it's too hard or inconvenient can't last
indefinitely in the industry...

~~~
josephlord
It isn't just hard or inconvenient it is impossible (to do losslessly without
human intervention). I take data loss very seriously and I also take privacy
issues seriously so even if it was easy and convenient to implement a state of
the art solution it still wouldn't be a no-brainer.

------
monkey_slap
I'm not sure I'm understanding the point of this tool. It looks trendy, but it
takes notes. No syncing. I mean, this is the guy that wrote NetNewsWire.
Wouldn't an app like this be doable in a weekend?

I honestly want to find something new that the app does that is supposed to
change my workflow, but there is just nothing. A cynical part of me feels like
this exists (especially with the $5 price tag) just to ride the fame coattails
of Gruber+Simmons+Wiskus.

I don't condemn them for taking the opportunity of their current notoriety.
I'm coming off of week 4 of an app launch that completely failed to garner any
reviews or growth, so it does really hurt to see reviews of this app that are
nearly 4,000 words long: [http://www.macstories.net/reviews/vesper-review-
collect-your...](http://www.macstories.net/reviews/vesper-review-collect-your-
thoughts/)

~~~
tptacek
_Wouldn't an app like this be doable in a weekend?_

Paul Graham, I know you can hear me, and I know this is possible because I
know a thing or two about the Javascripts, and so I'm telling you now: the
site's banner should strobe clown colors for 5 minutes every time news.arc
sees this string.

~~~
nicholassmith
Think of all the strings that cold be extended out to as well. If there's any
justice in the world this will be at least an option.

~~~
frou_dh
Topical clownstrobe proposal: "nothing to hide"

------
danpalmer
Features: I'm all for simplicity, in the right circumstances. I use Clear from
Realmac Software because when I'm creating to-do lists, speed is the most
important thing to me. However, when I'm writing notes, accessibility is
probably the most important thing for me and that means sync, I'd also bet
this is the case for many people, hence the popularity of things like Evernote
and Google Keep. The absence of sync from Vesper seems like a massive
oversight, and makes me wonder if it's on the cards for a future version, or
perhaps for a working iCloud? In addition to sync, I would have thought it
would have Markdown support, even if it was transparent to the user in some
way and

Price: The price doesn't hugely concern me here. If I find an app truly
useful, then $5 is a small price to pay, and I support developers making a bit
of a stand on this and charging premium prices for premium products. The
feature set isn't one that interests me because of the lack of sync, so
whether it was $5 or $1 wouldn't really make a difference for me.

Design: 'flat design' is nice when done well, but detracts from usability when
done badly in my opinion. If you have a non-flat design, unless it's hugely
over-the-top, I don't think it detracts from the usability. (sidenote, what's
the correct terminology for the opposite of 'flat design'? It's certainly not
skeumorphic) Lots of Microsoft's 'metro' styling does flat design well, using
varying font sizes and typographic and visual hints to provide context to
controls, whereas Visual Studio has gone too far and removed far to many
visual cues which results in a less usable interface in my experience.

I feel that Vesper goes to far. As there is so little to the app it's hard to
justify it being 'less usable', but I do think the interface to be a long way
from correctly executed flat design. I think other apps and designs are far
closer to how flat design should be.

Another interesting thing to note is the animation on transitioning to a new
note. Federico Vittici made a GIF of it (<http://bit.ly/15EEKkP>) for his
review (<http://bit.ly/11Hkz16>). Federico points out that it makes the
interface feel a lot faster to the user, but I don't think it's the right
thing to do. Firstly, as I said above, I don't think speed should be a
priority for things like this, after all, the amount of time for a 0.5s
transition is minuscule to the amount of time spent composing the note. But
also it breaks the well known metaphor of the UI stack in iOS. The back button
still indicates that it will move to the screen on the left, however the
screen hasn't really moved in the user's mind. It's not a crucial point, but
it's one of those 'papercuts' (<http://askubuntu.com/questions/1006/what-is-a-
paper-cut>) that I would expect a team such as the one behind this app to have
addressed.

I wrote more than I planned to, so I might turn this into a blog post. Would
be interested to know peoples thoughts on it first though.

~~~
doe88
Concerning the sync I think they're waiting to see if Apple plans to fix
iCloud (with CoreData) in iOS 7 or if they must look for another way to do the
sync. At least this is what I would do, we're very near WWDC I think it was
wise to wait to see how it goes. Although I think what's more debatable was
the decision to release the app now and not to wait few weeks or even
september. Personally I would have tried (if as I think it's for them a side
project) to wait the release of iOS 7 (and maybe require iOS 7) and add the
sync functionality in version 1.0.

~~~
freyr
Why wait? They'll start getting users (and feedback) now and once they get
sync, they'll get another press release out of it. Apple didn't wait until
they could do LTE right to release iPhone 4s.

------
smackfu
Well, that explains why he linked to that "A $5 app isn't expensive" post from
Daring Fireball yesterday.

[http://www.macworld.com/article/2032847/a-5-app-isnt-
expensi...](http://www.macworld.com/article/2032847/a-5-app-isnt-expensive-
customers-need-to-help-fix-the-app-store-economy.html)

~~~
tptacek
Or, it's the other way around, and the pricing philosophy he's had all along
influenced his decision on how to price this:

<http://daringfireball.net/2006/11/pinprick>

(Where by "or" I mean "no").

~~~
smackfu
I'm saying it's not a coincidence he linked to that two month old article the
day before he released a $5 app. Prime the pump, in a sense.

~~~
roc
In that sense, he's been priming the pump since 2008.

[http://daringfireball.net/linked/2008/11/16/finnell-app-
stor...](http://daringfireball.net/linked/2008/11/16/finnell-app-store-
pricing)

~~~
lostlogin
Nice catch. My cynic alarm was squawking but its simmered down now.

------
jmduke
It appears to me by purchasing this app, you are trading the features of
existing products for a slick design. I'm particularly impressed with how they
have spun the lack of features as a feature ("simple and elegant", "imposes no
system")

For me, inability to coexist with Notational Velocity is a dealbreaker.

~~~
tptacek
Isn't that a little bit like saying that by buying a Moleskin notebook, you're
trading the features of existing products like Trapper Keepers?

~~~
jmduke
This might be stretching the metaphor a little, but in college I'd take a
five-section notebook over a Moleskin any day because of the nifty little
pockets that I could keep problem sets and syllabi in.

Similarly, an iOS notes app that doesn't have websync just seems unhelpful for
me. The only time I need to record a piece of data and I don't have access to
my laptop/paper are usually when I need to remember something for later: and
that "later" involves me using my laptop.

(Advantage of note apps vs. note books: the former lends themselves much more
to iteration.)

~~~
tptacek
So this is easy: the kind of person who prefers a five-section notebook to a
Moleskine is not the target audience for this application. Just like those
apps that appeal to people who track their jogging times are not targeted
towards me, unless they also have pig fat and whiskey features.

------
manish_gill
What exactly is the point of this? I mean, what does this app do that's new or
exciting or hell, even better than any existing app does? Not to take anything
away from the people who made this, but if someone else had made such a
simplistic app, with next to no features, and put it out, I doubt anyone would
have given it the time of day.

This is app.net all over again.

------
pazimzadeh
Here is Gruber's review of Simplenote from 2009:
<http://daringfireball.net/2009/07/simplenote>

~~~
alexcroox
"But I noted three significant shortcomings:

    
    
        1. Syncing"

------
ph33r
It looks nice. I will give it that, but $5 bucks seems a little much for a
notes app that can't sync across platforms as far as I can tell... not even
iCloud.

Evernote, Springpad, Simplenote, and even Google Keep for iOS (when it is
finally release) have syncing from the get go.

~~~
ramykhuffash
It seems to be very similar to Day One, which also costs $5 and is quite
popular

~~~
kmfrk
Day One looks really exciting, but the reviews are really up in arms about a
lack of encryption. Does anyone know more about this supposed issue?

~~~
ph33r
Lack of encryption and lack of Google Drive support have held me back from
using this as well. Let me know if you find out anything more.

------
tptacek
I wish this existed on OS X, and not just iOS, a platform where I'm never
particularly interested in taking notes.

What would be especially nice would be if iOS Vesper was a satellite of a
desktop Vesper, so that my photos and location information would automatically
get pulled into my notes.

~~~
rdouble
Day One does this.

It's a journal app, but it has the same features as Vesper, but with sync, a
desktop app, and a calendar view of your posts. In my eyes it also has a very
similar interface.

------
samtp
When will the Android version be released?

~~~
kloncks
Never. It's Gruber.

~~~
rednukleus
Honest question - what is it with these Apple fanatics not wanting to write
any software ever for Android, Windows, Linux or anything not Apple? Is it
just spite?

~~~
josephlord
I would prefer not to write software for Android or Windows because I don't
want to support Google or Microsoft if I can help it[1]. Google is too
powerful and has too much data and I really don't trust them. Microsoft while
reasonably well behaved recently (maybe because they have lacked the power not
to be) have a long history of dubious practices and unfairly squashing
competition.

Linux, Blackberry, Firefox OS, I would be happy developing for if they had
worthwhile market share.

[1] Note that this isn't an absolute and if the market conditions dictated it
I would swallow this preference and live work with them but while there is a
choice I would prefer not to. If I had a mega-hit on iOS I may port it to cash
in, while I put non-zero dollar value on avoiding Google/MS it isn't unlimited
either.

~~~
rednukleus
Thanks for the response. So it is an ethics thing with you. Personally the
idea of supporting Apple over Google is alien to me, but is interesting
reading other people's perspectives.

~~~
josephlord
I meant to include that I don't think that Apple are saints either. However
their business model is largely making stuff people want and selling it with
an upfront price rather than you (and the data trail you leave) being the
product to be sold to advertisers. Google's scale and data collection creep me
out already without adding more to it by using an Android phone, and therefore
I don't want to encourage others to do things that I wouldn't do.

But as I said its a preference rather than a hard black and white line for me,
major corporations have their own interests at heart not customers/users where
they conflict.

~~~
rednukleus
I can see the logic in that point of view. For me the big thing is lock-in.
Google let me transition off their services easily, and I can also use their
products on a wide range of hardware. Microsoft is somewhat "open" in this
respect, but less so. Apple actively push their customers into using software
and services that only work on their hardware. Jobs and Gates both categorised
their fight as Closed against Open, and personally I have a really hard time
supporting Closed, even when Open means letting companies use my data to sell
me ads.

I dont write native apps, so I dont know if push came to shove if I would
avoid writing apps for iOS or not.

~~~
josephlord
I don't feel more locked in to iOS than I would be to Android. If I changed
device I would lose apps, including purchased ones but little else.

Yes the services are only available on their hardware but hardware choice is
far from the biggest issue with this sort of freedom, ability to leave the
supplier entirely is the power I want and precisely because they offer less
(or at least I use less) than the full Google ecosystem I have a lower barrier
to exit.

I use iCloud only with some apps that support it and the photostream
functionality but I have all my photos offline too. I don't buy DRMed media so
could transfer my music elsewhere. I don't use Apple or Google mail services,
but pay for a separate IMAP provider. I have some documents in Pages but they
could be exported as a different format and there doesn't seem to be
difference in lock in to Word or even Google Docs.

Regarding open vs. closed I prefer open too. I like open source and have a
Linux server. However I don't see Google as that much more open than Apple.
Both release large amounts of Open Source software (LLVM, Webkit if you
struggle to think of Apple examples) but only in areas where it benefits them.
Open has reduced benefits where a single corporate interest has full control
of the direction of the project.

~~~
rednukleus
> hardware choice is far from the biggest issue with this sort of freedom

This might be why we differ. To me it's a huge issue - that I can continue to
buy from a range of hardware manufacturers, and install my own OS and
software. My computers all have Linux + Windows 8, and my phones have always
had custom ROMs on there. I get that not everyone needs that, but Apple
stopping me from installing OS X on my laptop, which is perfectly capable of
running it, just strikes me as "evil".

If you go out of your way to avoid Apple services that lock you in, then I
suppose that you could be reasonably free to exit. But on an iOS device you
can't get out of using default apps like Apple Maps, and services like
FaceTime and iMessage encourage people to connect with their family and
friends through a system which is almost unique in only working on one
manufacturer's hardware/OS (the only other example is BBM, which I also
avoid).

> I don't see Google as that much more open than Apple

I see them as much more open than Apple, probably because it is in their best
interest to be. Google's continuing existence is based on people's ability to
use their services from any platform. They are trying to make hardware and
operating systems less relevant by moving everything onto the internet. In
order to do this, they need everything to be interoperable, and they do that
through openness. Apple's business on the other hand is about getting people
into their walled garden and keeping them there. Microsoft did that to an
extent with trying to lock everyone into Windows, but in my view Apple are a
million times worse, as they are trying to lock people into their OS and their
hardware - and in many cases their software as well (eg. Maps and other
default applications).

With respect to Android, you can use it without using a single Google service.

------
leejoramo
Bought it and played around with it a bit. Very nice interface. The app has a
very nice initial feel.

However besides the ability to send an email or text, the data appears to only
stay the app. There is no DropBox or other syncing options. So it will not
replace SimpleNote/nvAlt for me.

Interesting, I expected this to support Markdown. But I do like the simple and
automated formatting that is provided.

~~~
leejoramo
The fact, that they named the app after the First Bond Girl could indicate
that this is a first of group of apps. So maybe the sync'ing features will be
coming in later releases.

------
nlh
Unless I'm missing something, this is a direct competitor to Evernote, yes?

I think I get it - Evernote has always been a bit of a mess IMHO and while
it's the best of what existed, it seemed overly complicated and cluttered.
This appears to be a measured (and flat) response to that.

~~~
egypturnash
I don't see anything about Vesper syncing to the cloud, so there's no way it
could ever compete with Evernote for me. My notes have not been tied to any
one particular device for several years thanks to EN, and there's no way I'm
giving that up.

------
marcosscriven
What an awesome position to be launching an app from, in terms of marketing!

------
danpalmer
I find the choice of name interesting. I realise it's a Bond reference, but
the first impression I got was of an unreliable old moped, not the image I
think the developers would want to associate with.

~~~
slaven
That would be a "Vespa".

~~~
jvzr
Which are, ironically enough, rather reliable despite their old age.

------
ryandvm
Cool. Gruber just invented Google Keep.

~~~
slantyyz
For reference, here were his thoughts on Google Keep a few months ago:

<http://daringfireball.net/linked/2013/03/21/keep>

~~~
rednukleus
Considering that Google are amazingly good at giving you your data back, and
allowing you to transition off to other services, his comment is about the
most stupid and self-defeating thing he could possibly say.

------
notatoad
that's a very pretty translation of iOS design principles into a flat UI.
makes me wonder in Gruber & friends have seen a sneak peek at the rumoured new
flat iOS.

~~~
antidaily
Ugh. I hope not.

------
lonster
Ugh... another note-taking app. How does this non-innovation make frontpage
news at Techmeme and other places? I don't get it.

Make an app that takes notes FOR me, automatically, without me having to even
think about it, and I'll pay $5 for that. Seriously, we've been making note-
taking apps since the dawn of the text editor. It's a solved problem. Move
along.

------
csomar
People who complain about the $5 price tag: How many coffees do you buy per
day?

Now, I don't drink coffee (dry eyes issues) and I'm not an app store
shopaholic. However, if there is something of interest, I'm not going to
complain about the lack of x and y and the high price.

The price is already too low.

------
panacea
No voice dictation. No syncing. More expensive than the free notes app. Lame.

------
marknutter
Am I the only one who thinks flat design looks boring and generic?

------
ChikkaChiChi
is it just me or did a lot of chimney commenters just shrug away the
inadequacies of this app by predicting things based on nothing at all?

------
guelo
So?

~~~
badusername
Chill out bro.

------
mtthw
Interesting name. <http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+vesper>

~~~
leejoramo
Given Gruber's love of all things Bond, I respect that the name comes from the
first Bond girl (and great cocktail) Vesper Lynd.

Edit: Ah, their company's name is "Q Branch" which is the division that
provides all of Bond's gadgets.

~~~
smackfu
That's playing a dangerous game, using multiple references to an existing
property.

Imagine someone creating "Imperial Studios" that released their new "Luke" and
"Darth" apps.

