

Polish Prime Minister calls for EU leaders to reject ACTA - marcin
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114884,11170954,Tusk_apeluje_do_europejskich_przywodcow__Odrzucic.html%3Flokale%3Dwarszawa&usg=ALkJrhitXAZJGpHIkOhfPNE9nqnIHA_amg

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jwr
A major politician admits he was wrong. This doesn't happen often, and in
spite of Tusk's many flaws should be recognized. He deserves respect for being
able to admit he was wrong.

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ancymon
That's one way to look at the situation. Another is that the politician
"changes" his mind to gain popularity.

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zeeed
which is, in fact, fine with me. if we're enough people that are convinced and
the politicians act like we want them to, then that's called democracy.

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kolinko
It isn't fine with me. a politician doing simply what the protesters or people
in general want is a populist. Indirect democracy is all about choosing people
we believe will make the right decision, even if then have to piss some people
off.

Tusk said he's not doing this because of the protests, but because the
arguments presented to him made sense. That is what I'm expecting of a good
politician.

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ajuc
So majority making decisions once every 4 years - that's democracy, but
majority making decisions on every issue - it's populism?

I wonder how that magic that makes people wise enough once every 4 years
works.

One possible way is that politicians are better than regular people, and they
have to lie before elections to ponder to stupid voters. After the election
wise and benevolent politicians do what is Right, no matter their stupid
voters opinion.

Is THAT why indirect democracy is better? Because it depends heavily on the
fact, that the most wise and benevolent politicians have to tell the best lies
to the stupid voters. And it's not obvious to me, that this will be always
true.

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kolinko
This is the same way corporations run. Shareholders/the board of directors
choose one person to run the whole enterprise and take the decision. The
person runs the show and makes the decisions, even if shareholders don't like
some of them. The shareholders don't get to vote on every single decision, but
if too many bad decisions are made, CEO gets a boot.

This is also a similar way the pirate ships were being run.

The reason for this is that person(s) at helm have the better perspective. Not
because they are superhumans or sth, but because they spend 15 hours a day
involved in the manner.

In other words - yes, the politicians are better to make decisions regarding
the country. Not because they were born better, but because that's their job.

It doesn't mean that they won't make mistakes, or be misinformed (as in case
of ACTA) - that's why they should listen to people, consult society. But by
"listening to people", I mean "hearing their arguments and reasoning", not
"doing what people want". The former is called "being wise", the latter "being
populist".

btw. majority making decisions on every issue is not a populism. It's a direct
democracy. I'd argue that it is as bad as populism.

Because of this distinction I was against ACTA, but at the same time against a
referendum against ACTA :)

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hastur
Wow, this is actually quite big. I'd say, more significant than the previous
decision by Poland (and then other EU counties) to suspend ACTA ratification.
Suspension meant merely that they needed to think more about this. Now Poland
comes out openly _against_ ACTA, and that's a _first_ among the participants
and signatories of the treaty.

Congrats to the participants of the anti-ACTA protests in Poland (possibly the
biggest ACTA opposition in the world), who brought about this change.

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zalew
thanks to #anonymous for making a scene that led to recognizing this issue in
our media.

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kolinko
yeah, as much as I sometimes hate their juvenilish behaviour, this time it
actually helped...

~~~
slowpoke
Well, despite all the "juvenile behavior", Anonymous is a force to be reckoned
with. They mean it when they say "Expect us.".

I also think the fact that they don't care how you perceive them (by acting
juvenile or otherwise immature) is one of their greatest strengths. Believe it
or not, but it frees you from a lot of burdens if you don't have to be polite
and politically correct, and makes it a whole lot easier to actually _do_
something (whether or not that something is good and/or justified is certainly
debatable).

