
Rising CO2 levels may trigger cognitive impairment, says new study - conse_lad
https://sparkonit.com/2020/04/30/rising-co2-levels-may-trigger-cognitive-impairment/
======
learc83
The navy has extensively studied performance in high CO2 environments on
submarines, and found that it has no impact under levels much higher than
you're likely to get indoors.

This study found no impact on decision making at 15000 ppm
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29789085/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29789085/)

That's _10x_ higher than you're likely to be exposed to in a poorly ventilated
conference room.

~~~
swsieber
From the study, emphasis mine:

> we were unable to replicate this effect in a _submariner population_

Please don't over-generalize paper results.

~~~
whatshisface
What's biologically different about submariners? Mostly male, I guess, but
anything else?

~~~
dmoy
Physically more fit, pass certain psych screenings, etc.

It's not exactly a good random sampling, they filter candidates very
aggressively.

~~~
learc83
It's not a good random sample, but they were exposed to C02 levels 10x higher
than what you'd be exposed to even in a poorly ventilated conference room.

~~~
loopz
Were they exposed to out in the woods situations with conflicting goals and
outcomes, or mainly just following routine and script?

~~~
learc83
The used the same kind of decision making skills test that the tests that
showed cognitive decline due to CO2 used.

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wh-uws
This one of those things that sounds silly but is actually very easy to test
and see it can be a real issue.

Tom Scott did a great video on it a while back

[https://youtu.be/1Nh_vxpycEA](https://youtu.be/1Nh_vxpycEA)

Do yourself a favor and get an air quality monitor like an awair

[https://getawair.com/](https://getawair.com/)

and monitor the levels.

Making sure they are good in whatever indoor areas you spend a good amount of
time in is a night and day difference cognitively.

~~~
throwquestion24
Testing is fun. But what do you do then? Open the windows? Remove the cars
from the freeway down the street?

~~~
Arainach
Opening the windows is a solid choice. I keep a CO2 monitor in my office. So
long as I keep the door open, levels usually stay below 800ppm, but if I close
the door they can climb rapidly within an hour or two. I have a CO2 meter tied
to an alarm to remind me to open the window if they get too high. I probably
_should_ have it set to 800, but I found that to trigger too often so I upped
it to 1200.

I use a RAD-0301, which works fine as a monitor and an alarm by itself, but
which I connect to a Raspberry Pi for dashboard purposes using the code shared
here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22764488](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22764488)

------
balnaphone
From wearing COVID-19 masks?

[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2764955](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2764955)

Quote:

> Oxygen concentration inhaled by healthy subjects wearing a surgical mask
> covering an N95 respirator decreases to about 17%, and the concentration of
> carbon dioxide increases to about 1.2% - 3% in a short period of light work
> (2-3). Although participants did not show any obvious changes in physical
> function and did not have any discomfort ratings, the average carbon dioxide
> concentration inhaled was far higher than the limit of 0.1% of indoor carbon
> dioxide concentration in many countries. With prolonged mask wearing,
> untoward reactions may gradually appear. In another long-term study, after
> wearing an N95 mask for 12 hours the CO2 concentration of subjects increased
> to 41.0 mmHg, far higher than the baseline value of 32.4mm Hg at the
> beginning of the test (4). The subjects mainly reported headache, dizziness,
> feeling tired and communication obstacles. In real life, the situations and
> time of wearing masks are much longer than the above experimental research
> settings.

~~~
11235813213455
on the other hand, lockdowns have reduced CO2 emissions in significant levels

The solution is not rooms with air-filtration-conditioning or whatever, there
are natural processes for that, the long term solution I see is just a reduced
economic activity like during lockdowns, focused on essential sectors (so not
luxury, entertainment, ..)

~~~
AtlasBarfed
A drop in emission rates for a couple months doesn't mean that 100-200 ppm of
CO2 magically drops out of the atmosphere. Locally it might help cities a bit.

But the backlog of CO2 to be removed to reach reasonable post-industrial
levels (to say nothing of preindustrial) is tens of trillions of dollars if
done artificially.

The solution is EVs + alt energy, and to stop industrializing every possible
arable acre for agriculture and switch to vertical farming.

~~~
11235813213455
permacultures are extremely productive, I believe it would work, combined with
less consumerism from people, a big shift for sure

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TheAceOfHearts
I'm really sensitive to high CO2 levels, so ever since I was young I had a
habit of opening all the windows in my classrooms when I arrived. I feel
stuffy and uncomfortable until I get fresh air. It always bugged me that
nobody else seemed to notice or care.

After it was recommended here on HN, I bought this CO2 meter [0] and I've been
very satisfied with my purchase. It reminds me to open the window and that has
had a tremendous impact on my health. I've gotten to the point where I now
keep the window slightly open at all times.

I'll share an anecdote which would appear to support the hypothesis that
higher CO2 levels affect cognition. I play Heroes of the Storm and my
performance in the game becomes notably worse as CO2 levels rise. It's not a
huge thing, but I start to make more mistakes and my decision-making gets
worse. This is important because at my skill-level (top 100 to top 250
globally, depending on my activity levels) it only takes one mistake in the
late-game to throw the match. I've had the CO2 meter start beeping in the
middle of a match, and after opening the window I've managed to turn things
around because I can think with greater clarity.

[0]
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PDGFR8/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PDGFR8/)

~~~
bufferoverflow
> _I now keep the window slightly open at all times._

Which makes you contribute more to CO2 levels than people who don't do that.
You literally let the heat escape in the cold months.

~~~
TheAceOfHearts
A trade-off which I'm perfectly happy to make. Charge me a carbon tax and I'll
pay it.

~~~
Cerium
A trade-off which I make as well, but my dreams of future houses include a
fresh air exchange unit.

------
inamberclad
Finally, a good explanation for the state of the world!

On a realistic note, this is a cause for concern for astronauts on the ISS.
They experience chronic, significantly elevated ppCO2 levels (4 torr, vs 0.3
torr at sea level), which cases headaches and fatigue, and possibly what's
known as the "space stupids," where very high-key, detail oriented people
start messing up checklist items and don't perform nearly as well as they
should.

~~~
Tade0
I was wondering why remote work is sometimes so difficult for me, even though
I've been doing it for years.

Turns out I needed to let in some fresh air more often.

Getting to 1000ppm of CO2 is remarkably easy in a room with 25 cubic metres of
volume.

~~~
realharo
You can buy a cheap sensor, like the MH-Z19B, connect it to a Raspberry Pi
Zero W (or just about anything else), and set a reminder to open the windows
once the value rises above some threshold.

Or just buy a finished product for this somewhere I guess.

~~~
hckr_news
Interesting thanks for the heads up

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cryptica
I wonder if that's why people seem to have gotten less intelligent over the
past few years (IQ scores seem to confirm this). I thought it was because of
social media but maybe high CO2 is to blame.

I would never have thought that the movie Idiocracy would become reality; it
seemed so ridiculously far-fetched at the time... Even with its 500 year
timeframe... Now it looks like it may actually happen for real in only a few
hundred years.

I wonder if I watched that movie again today if it would come across more as a
drama than a comedy.

------
KingMachiavelli
I see a lot of people wanting to monitor CO2 levels. But what's the cheapest
remediation option for an individual if the outside air is also pretty bad
whether other pollution or just high CO2?

The questions I have are: is it more effective to scrub the CO2 or just to
increase the partial oxygen pressure? What are the options for each.

Given that oxygen tanks are existing medical device, I would assume that just
supplementing oxygen is the easiest way to offset the CO2. Or is the CO2
harmful even in high oxygen environments?

The study does mention "[Studies] like Satish et al. (2012) and Allen et al.
(2016) are part of a growing body of scientific evidence pointing to CO2 as a
pollutant—not just a proxy for ventilation rate—with direct detrimental
impacts on the cognitive function of humans in schools and offices."

~~~
thatcat
The easiest way to scrub co2 is to have house plants.

~~~
greenshackle2
Opening a window is much easier. You need a large number of fast growing
plants to reduce CO2 levels significantly.

------
ck2
given the current demonstration of half the population's response to a
worldwide-pandemic, there is going to be zero done about CO2 levels or
climate-change in general, people are just going to watch the atmosphere boil
off over centuries while the 1% move higher into their penthouses and crank
the a/c

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non-entity
I feel like my cognitive ability has dwindles the past few years and while
there are for sure much bigger factors playing into that, I wonder how much
these environmental factors are a part of it.

~~~
bpodgursky
Rising atmospheric CO2 is a very real concern, and I am very concerned about
the long-term mental effects of atmospheric CO2 rising into the 900+ range.

But short-term, the effects of any rise from 350 to 400ppm outdoors is going
to be vastly dwarfed by indoor factors (in some poorly ventilated buildings
like old schools, PPM can rise to 2000+). It's far more likely that what you
encountered was due to poor ventilation than due to overall global CO2 rise.

------
arnejenssen
CO2 is "food" for plants and trees. Maybe a higher CO2 level can sustain
reforestation of desert areas causing an increase in CO2 absorption?

~~~
nelaboras
There is no lack of CO2 for plants. Deserts have very different reasons for
existing (and usually growing).

------
graeme
This does not appear to be a new study on the effects of CO2. It only mentions
there will be more indoor co2 as a result of combustion?

Scihub didn’t work for this one so I can’t be sure. I’m quite interested in
this topic, and there are a small number of studies indicating the issue may
be real. However, it is unclear this adds to them.

IF the issue is real it is nonetheless useful to know what this study
measures.

~~~
pas
It's open access:
[https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1029/201...](https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1029/2019GH000237)

It doesn't seem to be a trial, it's more like a deduction (basically model
fitting) from available data.

------
mleonhard
Original article: [https://cires.colorado.edu/news/continued-co2-emissions-
will...](https://cires.colorado.edu/news/continued-co2-emissions-will-impair-
cognition)

------
bubmiw
Icons for the left are now saying boycott tesla and other anti climate change
statements. The right i highly doubt will ever support a quick transition to
clean energy. Hope this doesn't turn into a fringe political issue now

~~~
hackissimo123
Who is saying boycott Tesla?

~~~
bubmiw
Robert Reich and his circle

[https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1260255145310339073](https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1260255145310339073)

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thecleaner
Given how COVID-19 situation is playing out in the world, I would say the
cognitive impairment has already started.

------
downerending
TLDR: They seem to be talking about global levels over time and also mention
that indoor levels can be higher, depending on how well air is exchanged with
outdoor air.

Probably good to be thinking about the latter, and in my well-insulated place,
I often leave some windows cracked to help with this.

Over periods of centuries, presumably evolution would ameliorate most or all
of the problem with global changes.

~~~
empath75
"evolution would ameliorate most or all of the problem" is a funny way of
saying that "a lot of people are going to die younger (or have fewer children)
because of this". That's the only way evolution works.

~~~
downerending
It doesn't need to be a lot younger or a lot fewer. The effect will almost
certainly be virtually undetectable, especially when compared to many other
evolutionary forces (e.g., diet, particulates in air, lack of exercise, social
policies, etc.).

If you want to improve global quality of life, CO2 levels are almost certainly
not the right place to start.

------
trekrich
maybe i should stop eating beef now!

