
Why Do People Who Chose Not to Study Science and Math Suggest That Others Should - mhb
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2013/12/12/why-do-people-who-chose-not-to-study-science-and-math-opine-on-the-virtues-of-studying-science-and-math/
======
aspensmonster
>“In the scope of my research, a feminist programming language is to be built
around a non-normative paradigm that represents alternative ways of
abstracting. The intent is to encourage and allow new ways of thinking about
problems such that we can code using a feminist ideology.”

>“I realized that to program in a feminist way, one would ideally want to use
a feminist programming language.”

How does this drivel pass for serious academic rigor? How does constructing a
"non-normative paradigm" centered around a "feminist ideology" for the
purposes of creating a "feminist programming language" further the cause of
getting more women into computer science? What relevance does it have to the
titular question of the blog post? Maybe I'm just particularly nasty today
after being sick all week, but this ivory tower gobbledygook really rustles my
jimmies.

~~~
adamnemecek
I'm guessing that people think twice before speaking up because there is not
all that much to gain but a lot to lose if people misinterpreted their
argument.

------
drcube
>“I realized that to program in a feminist way, one would ideally want to use
a feminist programming language.”

Tell that to Admiral Hopper.

Programming languages aren't masculine or feminine. Programming is hard
because you're a human trying to express yourself in the language of a
computer. Not because you're a woman trying to express yourself in the
language of a man.

There are barriers to women in tech, for sure, but those are social and
cultural barriers, not "sexist tools".

~~~
derleth
I'm almost afraid to ask if they think there needs to be a "feminist
mathematics" as well. Because, really, the division between "mathematical
notation" and "programming language" is somewhat arbitrary, especially with
languages such as Prolog and Metamath.

[http://us.metamath.org/](http://us.metamath.org/)

~~~
schnevets
And thus the mathematical perspective of "Herithmetic" was born.

------
jmduke
_[Among existing technologies, my personal choice for a feminist programming
language would be SQL. The woman expresses her demands for data with five
lines of code; a team of 100 men writes 2 million lines of C that must
consider all possible ways of satisfying the the query and ultimately supply
the answer.]_

Man, what an unfortunate way to end an otherwise interesting article. The
project honestly sounds pretty interesting -- I have no idea what a _feminist
programming language_ is, but it doesn't sound particularly more far-fetched
than other graduate studies I've run across.

~~~
auctiontheory
Last I checked, Lisp/Scheme had some nice curves.

~~~
entendre
"I privately say to you, old friend... please accept from me this
unpretentious bouquet of early-blooming parentheses: (((())))."

------
brudgers
For the same reasons that those who chose not to study culture see themselves
fit to comment upon it...well at least those who suggest studying math and
science in order to share their latest sexist snark with the world.

Or to put it another way, so that there are some voices which are not like the
author's and Rush Limbaugh's. What a boatload of misogynist horse shit.

------
vittore
> [Among existing technologies, my personal choice for a

> feminist programming language would be SQL. The woman

> expresses her demands for data with five lines of code; a

> team of 100 men writes 2 million lines of C that must

> consider all possible ways of satisfying the the query

> and ultimately supply the answer.]

I will print it and put on the wall. rofl

------
Millennium
Because people can recognize the importance of certain paths in life, even as
they themselves choose different paths?

~~~
coldtea
No, try again.

~~~
Millennium
Could you elaborate? I can't say I find this argument very compelling.

------
WhoIsSatoshi
I like the question itself - my friend went into journalism and now preaches
STEM. I believe there is a disproportionate representation of those folks
(rather than STEM folks preaching STEM themselves) because they are aware of
the media distribution channels while the STEM crowd is more of a dark-room
thing... And not-as-able to spread our ideas to the non-STEM crowd due to
unfamiliar channels we by nature deal with less. Because of that we should
continue to observe this paradigm - And I, one of the crowd, will meanwhile
warn the potential traveller that the STEM road is harder, but the reward is
inherent to the choice of going through it. I find the following applies much:

    
    
      "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
      And sorry I could not travel both
      And be one traveler, long I stood
      And looked down one as far as I could
      To where it bent in the undergrowth;
      
      Then took the other, as just as fair,
      And having perhaps the better claim
      Because it was grassy and wanted wear,
      Though as for that the passing there
      Had worn them really about the same,
      
      And both that morning equally lay
      In leaves no step had trodden black.
      Oh, I kept the first for another day! 
      Yet knowing how way leads on to way
      I doubted if I should ever come back.
      
      I shall be telling this with a sigh
      Somewhere ages and ages hence:
      Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
      I took the one less traveled by,
      And that has made all the difference."
      
      -R.Frost

------
keithpeter
Well, here we go

I teach _basic_ mathematics to adults in a couple of institutions in the UK.

Fact: Most of my students are women, but the male proportion increases
significantly for evening classes compared to daytime classes

Fact: A lot of my students (both genders) begin to realise that _basic_
mathematics is stable, has a logical 'rule' based structure, and that it is
possible to reduce most of the _technical_ parts to checklists on 5by3 cards

Opinion: I spend a lot of time encouraging students (both genders) to take the
slightly harder and more challenging exam[1]

The upshot is that a disproportionate number of male students have a go at
Higher compared to Foundation _because of perceived valence of maths_. They
will _make_ time for the extra study whereas the female students feel
constrained not to take time away from other commitments (children, jobs,
older relatives) and will _suffice_ by working in the lesson times only, not
between. I do what I can.

Anecdote: I was teaching probability today[2]. I managed to link a two coin
tossing experiment where we tossed a couple of different coins 20 times per
student (aggregating to 400 tosses) to genetics (Punnet squares where Heads
represented dominant alleles, and tails recessive).

Historical note: Mendel's rivals refused to see aA as distinct from Aa (HT as
different from TH using coins). Links to sickle cell anaemia and Hardy
Weinberg equilibrium. Not a bad two hours...

[1]UK:GCSE Mathematics is offered at Foundation and Higher tier. There is a
significant gap between the two. We used to have a _middle path_ called
Intermediate that really suited adult students, but some Tory idiot removed it
on the grounds that we should _do the same in mathematics as in other
subjects_. But we have _subjects_ so that we can address the different
traditions...

[2] see below for a sample of my methodology

[http://www.sohcahtoa.org.uk/pages/probability-sorting-
statem...](http://www.sohcahtoa.org.uk/pages/probability-sorting-statements-
by-likelihood.html)

[http://www.sohcahtoa.org.uk/pages/rolling-two-dice-
experimen...](http://www.sohcahtoa.org.uk/pages/rolling-two-dice-
experiment.html)

------
schnevets
Because job demand and the way people make a living has changed since these
pundits were in school? 30 years ago, there was a greater demand for legal
knowledge, so Barack Obama attended law school. That doesn't mean he can't
recognize a higher need for technologists in today's workforce.

This is like criticizing successful farmers for encouraging their children to
go into mechanics during the Industrial Revolution.

------
dragonwriter
The entire premise of the article is the fallacy of equivocation: when the
people referred to are advocating study of STEM subjects, it isn't narrowly
focussed on STEM degrees (especially obvious when that advocacy is for
general, primary/secondary STEM education), but to set up the "people who
chose not to study" is based solely on the fact that those people don't have
STEM degrees.

------
columbo
Uhg, I worry this will explode... really it's a college thesis and I'm sure
it's not the worst one out there:

[http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/2/28/spot-the-
imposto...](http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/2/28/spot-the-impostor-
fake-thesis-titles/)

------
mildtrepidation
This seems pretty close to "if you can't do better, don't criticize."

Abstract concepts and figurative thinking are important factors in _not_ being
completely ignorant of the world around you and the existence/potential of
things you may not entirely understand or be able to implement.

~~~
makomk
Many of the people who talk about this _could_ probably have studied maths or
science, though - they just chose not to in favour of other fields which are
traditionally more attractive to women. Yet somehow they never question
whether their fields of study - which, naturally, they have far more influence
over - are drawing women away from maths and science in a way that they aren't
men (and I suspect they are in a pretty big way). It's always exclusively the
fault of male scientists and mathematicians, who must obviously be sexist if
they're not attracting as many women to courses as men.

~~~
sophacles
I have yet to hear a man tell me he was discouraged from entering some field
(with the two possible exceptions of nursing and elementary education) by a
woman, telling him 'boys aren't good at that'. (Fathers on the other hand are
great for making sure their boys don't do too good at the sissy stuff).

On the other hand, I have directly witnessed math teachers and professors
telling women that they needn't worry too much about understanding the class,
"because you girls don't need it - you're graded on effort" (despite actually
wanting to know). I've heard plenty of stories from women about being told
"girls are bad at math, it's natural you don't understand". I've seen one
little girl break down and cry because a man told her girls can't be
engineers.

There is a big difference there.

------
auctiontheory
Well, putting aside the feminist-programming-language drivel, it's certainly
possible for intelligent and honest people to recognize the value of paths
that they did not themselves take.

Also, if I made a mistake, I might encourage others not to repeat my mistake.

~~~
greenyoda
" _Also, if I made a mistake, I might encourage others not to repeat my
mistake._ "

Mistake? Obama and the other high-level people in government who advocate STEM
seem to have done pretty well for themselves - probably better than they could
have done by studying STEM.

I wonder if Obama is encouraging his own daughters to pursue STEM careers, or
just other peoples' kids?

------
greenyoda
By the way, there was extensive discussion of that "Feminism and Programming
Languages" article on HN yesterday:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6893756](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6893756)

------
dojomouse
Because, to hear them talk, there aren't many other options :-)

------
smtddr
Oh where do I even begin with this...

>> _Why would folks who apparently preferred other subjects suggest that women
and particular minority groups be encouraged to study tech subjects that they
themselves did not like and ended up not needing?_

What does this person think women & particular minorities like? Can I safely
assume this person is still thinking in the stereotype world? "Girls like
flowers and talking on the phone!" "Minorities like gangsta rap and
basketball!"

 _" did not like and ended up not needing?"_

So if women & particular minorities don't like or need them; I guess that
implies only white males and non-particular minorities do. The amount of
incorrect assumptions that one must have in the mind to make such a statement
in 2013 is... I don't even.....This blog post is just off the charts filled
with privileged/sexist/racist mindset. This has to be a troll/flame-
bait/prank.

EDIT: WOW!!! Did this article get blown off the HN-frontpage in under 2 mins?
This is an example of how tech-scene buries issues about sexism & racism. You
have people in Harvard who think like this... I hope the mainstream media
picks this up to let anyone else out there quietly holding these views know
how wrong they are and to show sexism & racism still exists in places like
Harvard and how it contributes to the lack of women & minorities in tech.
Holding this kind of attitude will affect how you interact with women &
minorities.

EDIT2: And don't think I haven't noticed the bury-team that always tanks my
comments on these issues. Probably the same people I'm always talking about
here:

Conspiracy theory:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6441795](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6441795)

    
    
      Supporting examples:
      1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6885123
      2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6365495
      3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6448409
      4. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6857739
      5. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6035263 - This is the most obvious one.

