
Ask HN: I'm 18 in Sydney. Part time work at unicorn, or go to uni/college? - HappyTypist
I&#x27;m an 18 year old self taught developer in Sydney. After graduating from high school, I applied and got a contractor job at a local office of a super-unicorn. I love the company and culture, have got nothing but stellar feedback, however the local engineering work is drying up to a part-time workload. There&#x27;s just a limit to what&#x27;s left to do in a local operations&#x2F;support office.<p>The options I&#x27;m considering are the following:<p>- Do part time for this unicorn.<p>- Find a full time job in Sydney.<p>- Go to uni (college) for something else I&#x27;m interested in.<p>I love the unicorn, but I&#x27;d like something more stable and a bit of higher-impact work. I&#x27;ve discussed this slightly internally but haven&#x27;t pushed as things are still in a bit of flux.<p>Unfortunately, the tech scene in Sydney is quite limited and due to lacking a degree, I&#x27;m ineligible for US E2 visas. At this stage I&#x27;d prefer to join a larger company and learn from bright people; instead of working at a bland consulting company for example.<p>I&#x27;m interested in more things than software engineering and is open to studying other fields, although my current experience &amp; FOSS contributions are all coding-related.<p>Where do I see myself in 5-10 years? Who knows? Maybe making a startup, because when I made one I loved every moment of it.<p>What do you think I should do?
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brian-armstrong
Going to uni is a good chance to interact with some very smart people in an
environment where people are largely motivated to learn. It will give you a
chance to learn quite a lot of fundamentals at a quick pace, and if you spend
your time well, you'll get quite a lot out of it. It won't turn you into a
good dev, but it will give you lots of pieces that you'll start to connect
later in your career.

You can also pick up lots of good stuff from working, but you need to be very
careful about what habits and practices you keep. You're going to be in an
environment where people are motivated to just get things done. Some people
will focus on improving, others will not. You will have your own project
deadlines to meet. You might get mentored by smart people, but it's not
guaranteed, and politics can play a large role here. Nobody is obligated to
make you great.

Working will inevitably be the thing that crystallizes your developer
abilities, and I don't think anyone gets good without it, but going to a
university helps you learn things that people will often just take for granted
in the workplace (unless they don't know them- those unknown unknowns can be
tricky)

~~~
HappyTypist
Thanks for your insight! I definitely agree the environment of uni can be
great and don't doubt it will be valuable for me, but I do wonder if the
opportunity cost of uni is worth it for me personally.

I suppose I like self-learning more and have been coding, either as a hobby,
freelancing, or on my own startup, for 5 years. My experience at this unicorn
and elsewhere has made me question just how much I'll get out of a Comp Sci
degree. I'm someone who spent most of high school classes coding, and my spare
time hacking with embedded devices or mitigating DDoS attacks.

Even disregarding that the value of bachelors of comp sci may be substantially
less for me personally, I don't know if software engineering is something I
want to build a career in anyway.

Doing Comp Sci commits me to this track to some extent. 4 years of full time
work, very frugally saved and invested in an index fund, can become very
considerable amount. I can afford to save the vast majority of income for the
next few years -- so why not optimise for it?

P.S: Are you Brain Armstrong of Coinbase? Love what you're doing!

~~~
pvg
_the opportunity cost of uni is worth it for me personally._

That's a good question but it's hard to evaluate the opportunity costs of
either.

 _My experience at this unicorn and elsewhere has made me question just how
much I 'll get out of a Comp Sci degree._

CS programs typically and primarily teach things other than 'coding'.

 _Doing Comp Sci commits me to this track to some extent._

It doesn't. You can always drop out. This isn't to say that if you find the
idea entirely unappealing, you ought to do it anyway because of some silly
reason. But if you want to genuinely weigh the options, it's better to not
misrepresent them to yourself. Let's say you've decided you'd rather keep on
working. Terrific, keep doing it. Or maybe that degree in music theory sounds
like it might be interesting. Go ahead and try it.

~~~
HappyTypist
> CS programs typically and primarily teach things other than 'coding'.

Yeah, but practically what I'm doing most of the time is architecturing,
coding, or debugging, and know/'don't mind learning' a decent amount of
'everything else' to be productive.

I had no trouble learning A* or Minimax or Quicksort when I needed it, I
learned _enough_ about neuron networks to build something 'good enough' in two
days, I knew enough about networking to mitigate a layer 7 DDoS, etc.

I think I have enough surface breadth to know, most of the time, which tool or
algorithm I'll need -- and can then learn that. I don't know too much about
genetic algorithms for example, but I think I'll know when it's suitable for
the job.

I do not doubt that CS will be valuable to me. I just question "how valuable",
because 4 years is a long time.

> It doesn't. You can always drop out.

Good point. I thought that I'd be making a huge commitment, but I won't be in
reality. Starting a degree will allow me to better evaluate its value to me
too.

Thank you!

~~~
pvg
_I had no trouble learning Astar or Minimax or Quicksort when I needed it, I
learned enough about neuron networks to build something 'good enough' in two
days, I knew enough about networking to mitigate a layer 7 DDoS, etc._

Of course. But pop into a bookstore or library and leaf through SICP or TAoCP
or the white book or Patterson and Hennessy, etc. There's a reason these and
many other topics are subjects of years-long study. It might turn out to not
be your thing but you seem somewhat dismissive of it all and it might be to
your detriment, whether or not you give a whit about pursuing this
academically (I'm not a CS grad myself, incidentally).

------
analognoise
Going to look for a job without a degree is like jumping out of a plane
without a parachute - you could survive, but your chances are greatly improved
by the parachute.

You're 18. Get the school done, work part time if you can. By 22 you will have
a lot of doors open, whereas the 'unicorn' will just grind you up and replace
you with another willing (undegreed) 18 year old in a few years.

~~~
pvg
>Going to look for a job without a degree is like jumping out of a plane
without a parachute

That sounds completely untrue, especially for someone who's already _had_ a
job without a degree. It shouldn't discourage anyone from pursuing academic
work if they want to but the analogy is terrible.

~~~
analognoise
Fine - a degree is like a condom: it is better to have it and not need it,
than need it and not have it.

Trust me - you'll thank me at the first round of layoffs.

~~~
pvg
_Trust me - you 'll thank me at the first round of layoffs._

I'm afraid I don't. I've been through layoffs and I've had to do some layoffs.
Degree has never been a significant factor in either.

~~~
analognoise
Lets clarify: what field & sized companies?

Because you can't even get a foot in the door without a degree most places;
now I'm curious.

~~~
HappyTypist
I suspect more conservative (e.g. financial, government) firms may only
shortlist those with a degree (especially if hiring is done by non-engineers),
but I don't think 'most places' is true. I applied to six places and received
two offers, one from where I'm at now and the other from a startup.

My Googler friend told me that as long as I can get an interview, simply
having a degree or not is 'irrelevant'.

Maybe it's not a question of degree, but if you've done anything that sets you
above?

------
pvg
You're 18. You've got plenty of time to do whatever the crap you want and
change your mind about it if you don't like it. Don't let silly terminology
like 'unicorn' and absurd unanswerable questions like 'Where do you see
yourself in 5 to 10 years' distract you from trying things

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Broken_Hippo
Well, going to uni would minimally give you the paperwork to get in the door
places. You can do it without the paper, but more and more places require it.
Now, it might cost some money, and depending on the setup there, you might
have to work nevertheless. Uni sometimes let you make contacts and learn
things you didn't consider. This route might be your safest/easiest option,
mostly because it gives you a definite edge on those other self-taughts (plus
you might be able to test out of some classes based on experience/knowledge).
This would defnitely be a bood way to expand your field of knowledge, since it
is completely possible to learn something other than what you now know.

However, if you can make the other work, and simply get a job, that might be a
better option, depending on the impact school would have on your life and
finances. Might be harder to find a job and harder to expand your field.

My actual suggestion, if you think your life will allow, is to work part-time
in the field while going to uni. You aren't sure where you want to be in 5-10
years, which is completely fine: This simply opens up as much as possible for
you... in theory, anyway.

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seekingcharlie
I'm Australian and I would really recommend you go to uni and get the piece of
paper. You are still young and as more and more time passes, it becomes harder
to be able to go back and study full-time.

I've personally found that working in the US is such a fulfilling experience
(particularly in SF/SV) and having a degree will make the visa process much
easier.

You can still work part-time or freelance and uni will be a great way to meet
like-minded people (AKA potential cofounders) if you're interested in founding
something in the future.

~~~
HappyTypist
Thanks, super interested in an Aussie's (your) perspective!

Being about to get an E2 visa is definitely great.

Can I ask for your depth of knowledge before you went to uni? What degree did
you do, and how deep was the scope? I'm just asking because I've been
programming for 5 years, on various levels and I'm wondering about how much
'new stuff' I'll learn.

~~~
seekingcharlie
Do you mean the E3 visa?

As for me, I started building websites in year 11 for friends/family - I was
self-taught HTML, CSS and Wordpress. I had no "real" programming experience,
which is where we might differ from each other.

I did an accelerated diploma in Design and then went back and did my bachelors
in Comp Sci at USyd. The programming components were definitely new to me
(Java, C etc), but you may have experience with them already.

I think it's safe to assume that CS is really not about teaching you how to
program - many people graduate and do not know how to code. What you do gain
is a deep theoretical knowledge that is really important and useful
(algorithms, data structures etc). There are many threads on HN where the
differences between self-taught & CS students are compared, you should
definitely check them out.

Ultimately, I think it really depends on what you want to be developing. If
you want to work at FB/Apple/Google/MS or anywhere outside of Australia, get
the degree. If you want to found your own startup, I could see an argument of
why the degree might be less useful. That said, I think very few people would
regret studying CS or software engineering, it's always going to pay off.

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creature
Go to university & get a degree. A degree opens a lot of doors in the future,
even if you think it shouldn't matter. That's both simple things like "Getting
your CV past a clueless first-screen HR person", and complex things like
"Applying for a visa to live/work abroad".

Also, if you're working as a developer already then the first year of
university is likely to be straightforward for you. Depending on the hours,
you could probably keep the part-time job and study (but out of the two, you
should prioritise the study).

Finally, I'd recommend you use your free time in university well. Volunteer
for charitable organisations; help out with your student union; take up a
sport; keep learning things not on the curriculum. All of these are fulfilling
in and of themselves, but will also benefit your future too.

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atmosx
Go to the university, try to become top of your class and learn everything the
University has to offer (parties and girls included).

You have time for the rest. Nothing stops you from working part time or as a
contractor while studying.

