
Review: Copperhead OS - billpollock
https://www.adventuresinoss.com/2017/01/18/review-copperhead-os/
======
lrvick
I think there are some misconceptions in this thread (due to the title).

Personally I use CopperheadOS as my daily driver because it stays continually
ahead of Google (and groups like AOKP, LineageOS etc) in terms of Android
hardening. It goes well beyond just not having Google Play services.

See their details on their approach and design:
[https://copperhead.co/android/docs/technical_overview](https://copperhead.co/android/docs/technical_overview)

They make continued patches to Android as part of a security and privacy first
approach. Many of their patches get upstreamed by google months later (if at
all) but CopperheadOS users get them right away.

Google has their engineering efforts focused mostly on new features and
compatibility. They are happy to let firms like CopperheadOS be further ahead
in security research and take their patches where it does not break
compatibility.

It really depends on what you want to optimize for. Security/privacy or being
able to run all the latest games and social media apps and the consequences
that come with them.

~~~
ece
Copperhead uses Grsecurity, and I used to use Grsecurity, when it was widely
available, now that it's not and the developer has decided to act in hostile
ways to the Linux community(1), it's made me rethink using his work and/or
supporting him. Plenty of consultants make do fine without resorting to
closing off their source code, and decide to act better with the community
and/or companies.

(1)
[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/22/grsecurity_defamati...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/22/grsecurity_defamation_perens_dismissed/)

~~~
jemsa
CopperheadOS doesn't use grsecurity anymore afaik.
[https://twitter.com/CopperheadOS/status/933684025624993792](https://twitter.com/CopperheadOS/status/933684025624993792)

~~~
bubblethink
Actually, copperhead itself is sort of loosely following grsec's model, which
is rather unfortunate. Their licences, where required will be GPL or
compatible with upstream, but otherwise copperheadOS itself is not FOSS. I
kind of get that it's hard to make money in such projects, but I really don't
see how this strategy works for them, unless the goal is just to be bought out
by someone.

------
JepZ
Sometimes I am wondering what Google employees think when they read headlines
like this one. I mean they probably have no problem giving the personal data
to Google, but at the same time many of them are probably open source
proponents and would support a world where the Google services would be
entirely optional to Android.

A few days ago I was thinking about a new smartphone and because my main
problem with my current android is the outdated kernel and driver setup, I was
searching for smartphone with open source drivers. Wikipedia tells us since
the start of the Smartphone era about 22 phones had open source drivers (with
the exception of the proprietary baseband firmware):

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-
source_mobile_pho...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-
source_mobile_phones)

Doesn't look like something where you can select the hardware specifications
you prefer. So I feel a little lost.

In general, I like Android but for my taste the Google services are too
intrusive. Uploading my data before I had a chance to deactivate it is just
unacceptable. Asking me every day to add photos to Maps sucks too. I can
accept giving some of my information to Google to improve the product, but
lately Google feels like the data mooch on my smartphone...

~~~
rifung
> Sometimes I am wondering what Google employees think when they read
> headlines like this one.

Hello Google employee here! I suspect we don't all have the same opinion but I
can share my own since you asked. Note that I work in Cloud so I work in an
area far far away from this stuff and opinions are obviously my own.

Frankly the headline makes me a little bit sad because of course I would like
to make things which people are happy about. On the other hand, I also realize
that it's not easy to make a product which fits every single person's use
case, and in this case I suspect most this level of privacy is overkill for
most people, and it's wonderful that there is something for those who want
that extra privacy and security.

I also think it's awesome these people contribute security patches to AOSP!

> I mean they probably have no problem giving the personal data to Google, but
> at the same time many of them are probably open source proponents and would
> support a world where the Google services would be entirely optional to
> Android.

I like to think I'm a proponent of open source as I try to contribute but to
be honest I don't actually think it really matters for Android to be
independent of Google services because as far as I can tell, most people like
Android with Google services?

Is there a reason that removing Google services would be better for the users?
I can understand from a philosophical or ideological standpoint why it would
be better but not really from a product point of view since I think I can
confidently say 99% of Android users do not care or even know that it is open
source..

~~~
cornholio
You might be a Google employee, but you do not seem to be an Open source
proponent. That's you prerogative, but you completely miss the point of the
discussion if you ask why should users want to be independent from proprietary
services. Sure, 99% don't want that and would click any colored and shiny
button if it promises them a free Justin Bieber ringtone, but this is not the
topic of the thread.

~~~
zeep
Cloud services are probably the thing that is the farthest away from being
open-source non-proprietary software... and he is working on cloud services,
so I can understand where he comes from...

~~~
rifung
While I understand what you were getting at, we actually do open source some
of our software as well as contribute to an early open source project so I
wouldn't say it's the FARTHEST away..

~~~
zeep
The software that you are open sourcing, is it software that allows you to
access the back-end or are you actually releasing software that could allow
someone else to start his own cloud service?

~~~
rifung
We have an incubator project for Kubernetes as well as software to access the
backend.

I don't think our team is releasing software to let others start their own
cloud service if I understand you correctly. Are you thinking of something
like what GitLab does? If so our team isn't doing that sorry!

------
Tepix
I love Copperhead OS on my Nexus 5X. Amazing battery life, great trustworthy
apps and strong security. Frankly I think the project would be a lot more
successful with lower prices. I'm willing to pay $50 per year for the OS,
right now the price to get Copperhead OS installed on a Pixel phone is $400.
That's just out of whack when taking into consideration the phone price (I
paid around $180 for a used Nexus 5X a year ago) and the usual software
prices. I guess I'm not the only one not buying a Pixel with Copperhead OS for
that reason.

The Copperhead guys should get a copy of
[http://www.dummies.com/education/economics/how-to-
determine-...](http://www.dummies.com/education/economics/how-to-determine-
the-ideal-price-with-price-elasticity-of-demand/)

~~~
slphil
You don't need to pay them for a phone. You can install it on the device
yourself for free.

~~~
anowlcalledjosh
Builds are only available for free for Nexus devices, though -- if you want to
install it on a Pixel, you have to either build from source or pay up.

~~~
slphil
This is true, but building from source isn't very hard. (I also don't care for
the Pixel -- I have no desire to upgrade from my Nexus 6 and recommend it to
others seeking a de-Googled phone.)

~~~
kakaorka
I had a nexus 6 for 2 years. Just replaced it last month with an iPhone 8+. My
experience with the nexus was horrible and I will never buy another android
phone. The quality of the hardware is just abysmal. I hope the iPhone proves
itself better.

~~~
slphil
I have had only a single problem with my Nexus 6, as far as hardware goes: the
USB port on the bottom sucks. On the other hand, there is an obviously
superior way to charge the phone, since it supports Qi charging, which I have
stations for at my office and home. I only need to use the port when flashing
a new ROM (it works, but only in precise alignment).

You should provide some actual claims about the problems you had with the
hardware rather than just complaining.

------
orblivion
I'm overall quite pleased with my Copperhead phone, and very much appreciate
getting actual OS updates.

I have one issue however that I thought I'd put out there from a customer
service standpoint. If you buy a phone from them, you pay what seems to me
like a nice premium (Pixel XL $1,269.00; though it's hard to find a good
comparison point), and it comes with a service plan. Copperhead (as I
understand) takes stock AOSP and (among other things) swaps out some of the
default applications. Notably, the SMS application is something called Silence
(silence.im).

Here's the issue. I've had a problem or two with Silence, and I contacted
their customer support. They suggested trying other SMS apps to see if that
solved my problem, which is in itself fine. However, at that point they closed
the issue, because they claim that they're not responsible for 3rd party apps,
even ones that they bundle and (I presume) update with system upgrades. The
reason given is that they don't control the source for those, unlike the OS. I
don't accept this at all. I paid a good premium (unless I'm mistaken) for the
phone, I expect a _working phone_. This, these days, includes a functioning
SMS client. How they go about making that happen is _their_ responsibility.
They can work with me to find a suitable replacement, they can submit a pull
request or a bug report, etc. But I argue they should consider the issue open
until it's fixed or I decide it doesn't matter.

Anyway, not a big deal, I worked around it. Perhaps if I pressed enough they
would have been okay with me returning the thing on these grounds, but it's
nowhere near worth it. I just disagree with their philosophy on this issue. I
understand it must be _really_ hard to deal with all this as such a small
operation. But then they should put this point in big bold letters when you
buy it, or something. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

------
meneame2
Sadly it has turned its open source license into a code available but non-free
one.

That, coupled with the fact that Pixel devices are way more expensive than
Nexus used to be limits its usefulness.

~~~
JetSpiegel
There's always LineageOS

~~~
billpollock
I use that but it's all Google based. Not sure if you can decouple it from
Play Services without breaking everything.

~~~
mpartel
LineageOS runs fine without Play Services. It's actually the default mode. It
just limits your app choices. My needs are simple so I don't really mind, and
I appreciate the improved battery life and speed.

It turns out many apps from the Play Store don't actually have a hard
dependency on Play Services. Example: Slack works, except for notifications
and (IIRC) receiving calls, which is good enough if you don't need to be
reachable all the time.

~~~
clort
"me too"

I run LineageOS v13 now (Galaxy Nexus), and before that Cyanogenmod back to v7
(maybe v6 not sure) and have never had Gapps installed, its been F-Droid all
the way. I guess that means I can't appreciate the improved battery life or
speed..

------
agentdrtran
> do think it will happen, however. The use case involves corporations,
> especially those involved in privacy sensitive fields such as health care.
> Wouldn’t it be cool to have a locked down “business” VM that is separate
> from a “personal” VM with your Facebook, games and private stuff on it.

This already exists for businesses with Samsung Knox / Android for Business.
No it's not a full OS but it fits all of their needs and separates data.
Having one OS in a "vm" on a phone sounds horrible UX wise.

~~~
bhnmmhmd
Sometimes I don't understand all the hatred toward Google having our data on
their servers. Most alternative solutions offer fragmented services (as
opposed to the all-in-one experience I get with Google) and are too cumbersome
to setup. Yes, I know data is sort of power these days. But before bashing at
Google/Apple/Microsoft... and banning their services, people should ask
themselves: "What sacrifices are they making and for what?" I mean, I would
totally feel convenient when my contacts are synced on my devices and I get a
unified experience. Google knowing about my contacts is just the price I pay
to get that service and honestly, from my experience, it's better for Google
to have my data because they keep adjusting the service I get in return.

~~~
kbenson
It's the competing incentives of a company that provides data services to end-
user customers and a company that mines as much information about people to
sell advertising to companies.

Without strong controls about what they _can_ do, we are always at the whim of
what they _might_ do. Google feels like a fairly bipolar company from the
outside, because they present two faces depending on who they are dealing
with, end-users or companies looking to advertise.

As an end-user, Google knowing all the little details about everything I do
and many places I go (because analytics JS, G+ button inclusion, etc) is
disconcerting. For a company looking to advertise, them _not_ doing this all
of a sudden would be disconcerting, and they would probably look to some other
company that _is_ doing so. It isn't just Google. Facebook knows a startlingly
large amount about you too.

I'm increasingly convinced this is one of those places where the market is
failing us because the negative externalities are mostly hidden. Those are
good places for targeted regulation. I wouldn't be entirely appeased, but a
law about the ability to review all information collected about you from a
company and strong controls about the access, sale and use of this information
would go a long way towards making me less worried about Google (or whoever)
changing quite a bit in the next decade and selling off the information.[1]

Because think about it, how far away are Google, Facebook and the umpteen
other ad agencies with complex profiles of you from usurping the credit
bureaus?

1: Maybe what we need is an interesting billionaire to buy a lot of personal
information on all the U.S. politicians from one of the less public agencies
and publish it. I'm sure we would get a law passed in record time.

~~~
AJ007
What happens when someone steals your identity/credentials and gets to see all
of that information Google, FB, etc have about you?

~~~
kbenson
It sucks. Hopefully, they are held accountable.

But do you honestly see an outcome where information is not collected at all?
Because I don't, so as I see it we need to put the correct incentives in place
to not only make it less likely but to handle when it inevitably does.

Maybe a fine up to $X per account leaked with a soft cap (but absolutely no
less than $1 or $2 per account) is levied. Losing 1 million accounts would
hurt, so companies would make real decisions about what and when to collect
data for liability reasons, and protect it better in many cases when they did.

------
jonafato
YalpStore [1,2] makes getting Play Store apps a lot less painful than going
through the process of extracting an APK from one phone and side loading it
onto another. There are some that simply won't / don't work without Google
Play Services, but most do. This made switching to Copperhead OS much easier
for me.

[1]
[https://github.com/yeriomin/YalpStore](https://github.com/yeriomin/YalpStore)

[2]
[https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstore/](https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstore/)

~~~
seba_dos1
And if something doesn't work without Google Play Services, it might work with
microG instead.

------
wffurr
Reviewer touts "security focused" OS, promptly disables "trusted sources"
check for installed software.

Turn it back on, sure, until the next time you want an APK that's not listed
in F-Droid. Seems like a bad idea. How about writing to your favorite app
developers and asking them to list on F-Droid instead of sideloading?

~~~
Mo3
Not only this, he won't receive security updates for his apps any more.

Thank you, I'm staying with default Android and continuing to read what I am
prompted for. He could've just opted out of most data collection, no, he had
to skip it without even reading it like a 60 year old office worker at a
insurance company.

~~~
craftyguy
Some of us using Copperhead OS never enable unknown sources. Yes, the author
is a doofus for the reasons you specified, but sticking with "default Android"
(whatever that is.. you mean AOSP?) is arguably worse than running Copperhead
OS.

------
JoshTriplett
The article mentions launchers; all the launchers in the app store seem
sketchy. Does anyone know of a good Open Source launcher, maybe a version of
the AOSP launcher compiled for current Android? I'd love to have something
that reclaims the pile of space (thumb-reachable space even) devoted to the
Google search bar that now stays on the bottom of the main screen all the
time.

~~~
ORioN63
KISS. I love it. It's a input bar. You get the history when you click on it.
It's common to find whatever you want to do here. You also get favorite apps
bar. You can search contacts, wikipedia, shortcuts (awesome with http post
shortcuts or chrome webpages shortcuts). Contacts have a sms/call button on
the side and they also appear on the history list. I use it on all my phones.
It's lightweight, open source and half my friends don't know how to use my
phone.

[https://f-droid.org/en/packages/fr.neamar.kiss/](https://f-droid.org/en/packages/fr.neamar.kiss/)

~~~
JoshTriplett
Tried that one, but I do actually want widgets and a home screen.

~~~
ORioN63
It has beta support for widgets now, if you still looking.

------
thatcat
It's kind of hilarious that copperhead OS is considered de-googled when all
the hw support and firmware updates still rely on google. After google drops
hw support for a device copperhead discontinues support.

------
dweekly
Re: having a switchable mobile hypervisor I have some free/unencumbered IP for
you courtesy my employer Google in case anyone would like to implement.

[http://www.tdcommons.org/dpubs_series/500/](http://www.tdcommons.org/dpubs_series/500/)

------
Improvotter
> CopperheadOS currently supports the Nexus 5X and Nexus 6P as a free
> offering. Pixel and Pixel XL support is available as a product.

They show a Nexus 5 on the landing page for CopperheadOS. Why not show a
supported device?

------
aknfo1341
I've used copperhead OS for months.. and believe me when I went back to my 5x
that had it and had to attempt to break into my own phone because I forgot the
password.. that thing is secure! It does suck to side-load somethings, but the
worst part is a lot of things use google play services more than you think..
which is always weird to me. If anyone has any questions let me know, but I
enjoyed it. Without google battery life is pretty awesome.

------
squarefoot
Hardening the OS is not enough. As the infamous Intel ME taught us in a
different context, unless one uses only 100% open hardware, security cannot be
guaranteed by software. We need open (documented, reproducible) hardware
rather than alternative OSes; until that day security on current platforms is
to be considered a myth.

------
makepkg
I use CopperheadOS on my Nexus 5X and I am extremely happy with it. My job is
android development and I have some personal paid apps on Google play and one
Foss app on F-Droid. Access clipboard in the background and record audio in
the background have been lately added to the security features available on
CopperheadOS, and I can't imagine now using my phone without COS hardened
implementation. I use FDroid for all the apps I need and yalp for a couple of
other apps not available on FDroid. The majority of apps now depends on Google
play services and that is flattering and disappointing: all those GPS APIs are
very appealing to developers and teams because makes things easier and all but
IMHO using all those services is contributing to data mining and I don't think
it is fair.

------
pasbesoin
I may have to go this or a similar route, to go back to using WiFi and
Bluetooth on my ~5.5 month old Motorola G5+ [1].

I mean, come on! Ship a patch/update, already!

1) That replaced a bootlooped ~1.4 year old Nexus 5X. Wasn't going to spend
big bucks after that burn and while waiting for the Pixel 2 or Samsung
whatever, or Apple's new line, to drop in a month or two.

And now, with all the crap going on with all those various new models...

I've griped about this, before, but damn it, they deserve the criticism. And
the only time they make positive changes seems to be when the public image and
pressure get bad enough. (And things get worse again, as soon as that pressure
relents -- or gets distracted.)

------
gman83
A hypervisor on a mobile OS you say?

[https://techspecs.blog/blog/2017/3/15/fuchsias-
hypervisor](https://techspecs.blog/blog/2017/3/15/fuchsias-hypervisor)

------
z3t4
I don't think it would be that hard to have two separate CPU's on a phone,
then use a hardware switch to wake one OS up and put the other to sleep.

------
jonafato
Copperhead OS is a great project and seems to be short on funding (based on
threads on Twitter and Reddit). If you'd like to support it, donations can be
made at
[https://copperhead.co/android/donate](https://copperhead.co/android/donate).

(I'm not affiliated with the project, I just use it as my primary phone OS.)

------
parfamz
Ain't here maps a good alternative to google maps? I use both of them 50/50
and I love the offline capabilities of here maps

------
forapurpose
Dated 18 January 2017, almost a year ago (but not quite long enough to add it
to the title) so some info might be out of date.

------
yakans
In the post the author complains about the lack of a VM inside current phones
to run Google instances in it. I believe BB10 had that feat to overcome the
limits of its native app ecosystem. My old Passport nowadays could almost
reach the objectives of the author. Too bad due to licensing the Android
kernel is stuck on 4.3

------
hedora
Any idea why all their phones are out of stock? (Are there more on the way???)

------
brightball
Anyway to install this on an Amazon Fire tablet?

~~~
jonafato
Unfortunately, it's currently only supported on a handful of devices [1], and
that's not among them. Supposedly (based on some threads on /r/copperheados),
Project Treble may improve this situation, but I haven't seen any new details
on that front recently.

[1] [https://copperhead.co/android/docs/install#supported-
devices](https://copperhead.co/android/docs/install#supported-devices)

------
walshemj
why that Name in particular did they not know its provenance in English :-) it
was what a proslavery northerner was called aka Traitors.

~~~
Scriptor
No one uses that definition anymore.

~~~
Chaebixi
That's never stopped anyone from taking offense if they want to.

------
iynere
its very easy to just not install google play services on any non-stock rom.
there doesn't seem to be much that is 'security-focused' about copperhead
besides that decision.... i would definitely recommend lineage over this, as
it has a much larger development community & works on a much wider range of
devices

