
How Did a Nissan Leaf Beat a Tesla Model S in a Race? - luu
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/16/how-did-a-nissan-leaf-beat-a-tesla-model-s-in-a-race/
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segmondy
Car mods aside, 2014 vs 2019 aside, Tesla driver might just be a bad driver.
The only way to know is to swap the drivers and have them race again. If
Nissan Leaf wins again, then it's the better car.

~~~
a13n
How good of a driver do you really need to be in a car that doesn't have
gears? Just push the pedal to go... Reaction time is the only factor I can
think of

~~~
ImprovedSilence
No. Not at all. Picking the apex, at what speed to approach the turn, how hard
to brake, when to accelerate out and how much, knowing the limits of traction
of what your driving, and I’m sure much more. It’s very involved, and requires
thought and decisions on top of reaction speed.

~~~
sandworm101
>> how hard to brake

Easy answer: Always as much braking as possible. There is no light braking in
racing. You want to maintain full speed until you absolutely have to slow
down. You brake as late as possible. The skill is not in judging how hard to
brake, but when to begin braking. Watch F1 with the telemetry on the screen.
Throttle goes up and down in corners. Braking is always either full-on or
nothing.

~~~
stjohnswarts
I don't believe that. If you slam on the brakes hard every time you need to
slow down a bit you're going to go into a tail spin and die especially at f1
speeds.

~~~
iamaelephant
Maybe if you're not into motorsport you should not comment on it. You're
wrong. Especially in highly aero dependent cars like F1 cars, where you can
achieve maximum braking pressure at top speed due to the down force. The
parent commenter is also wrong, brakes in F1 cars are certainly not either
full on or full off, the drivers trail brake into corners so although the
driver begins braking at maximum force, they slowly release the brake as the
car enters the corner and starts turning.

~~~
kube-system
Yeah, there’s a lot of misinformation all around here. Not to mention that
production cars have a lot different dynamics than an f1 car. They’re designed
with very different chassis goals in mind, so they’re going to exhibition very
different behaviors around a track.

I have a few days experience on track with an SCCA instructor. Braking late
and at maximum deceleration is the basic idea, but braking can do lots of
things and be used lots of ways.

A light application of braking is sometimes important, not to slow the
vehicle, but just to transfer weight to the front wheels before a turn. Also,
it is possible to use light braking to induce some rotation mid-turn,
especially in an FWD vehicle like a Leaf that will likely exhibit significant
understeer.

Driving a car around a real track is humbling for the first time. The first
event I was at, some instructor was taking a few laps with his personal Chevy
Volt, and he was effortlessly passing students in a variety of high dollar
sports cars.

------
metaphor
Jump to 30:00[1] for a summary of results. Leaf edged out the Model S by 7.441
seconds. Fastest lap was 1:52.271 by the Leaf; for comparison to more
traditional cars[2].

What's strange is all this Model S thermal issue talk, yet the driver posted
his fastest lap in the 13th. How can this be explained?

Then there's this remark from the article:

> _Clearly, [the Leaf driver] was keeping an eye on the temperatures and
> adjusting driving accordingly to finish the race before power loss
> occurred._

...and this[3] depicting the Leaf gauge cluster with 42% remaining at the end
of the race. Was the Leaf driver even really trying? His right arm
occasionally chilling on the door sill and casual commentary throughout the
race was kind of funny.

[1] [https://youtu.be/N-9tBPObpHk?t=1800](https://youtu.be/N-9tBPObpHk?t=1800)

[2] [https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/sugo](https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/sugo)

[3] [https://youtu.be/N-9tBPObpHk?t=1832](https://youtu.be/N-9tBPObpHk?t=1832)

~~~
myself248
> Model S thermal issue talk, yet the driver posted his fastest lap in the
> 13th.

All that extra charge early in the race was weighing him down. Once he'd
burned through most of the battery and lost the weight, the car got quicker.
Every racer knows you don't start with more fuel than you need.

/s

~~~
MertsA
For anyone else wanting to be overly pedantic, the weight difference between a
fully charged P100D and a nominally depleted P100D works out to 39.281
Nanonewtons. Those weight reduction mods are really getting out of hand. /s

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ummonk
The Model S is basically the electric equivalent of a classic muscle car. High
power at the expense of weight, and optimized for short straight line
performance.

And like with classic muscle cars, it can be beaten on the track by a cheap
light car tuned for good handling with a stiff suspension and good tires.

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dzhiurgis
Wow this site just keeps refreshing on iOS + adblock, making it impossible to
read or even attempt to disable adblock...

~~~
stjohnswarts
Something wrong with the safari engine then. No problem on windows or linux
for me with firefox and ublock

~~~
llampx
I would sooner blame a badly-coded website than a browser though, especially
given how most web development seems to be devolving into a "works with
Chrome" monoculture.

~~~
panpanna
Trust me, is there is webdev monoculture it is "worked on my MacBook retina
with safari, so the problem must be on your end"

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Neil44
The leaf was pretty well modded, tyres and suspension to keep speed in the
corners would both require less regen braking into the corner and less power
to get to speed on the next straight, helping to nullify the lower power and
passive cooling.

~~~
jdc
And the Leaf is 4-5 years newer

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dangrossman
Does that matter? It's still a LEAF, a sub-compact commuter car, up against
what was billed as the quickest production car in the world just a few years
ago. The best, newest LEAF has a single 214 hp motor dragging a battery-heavy
car, giving it a 0-60 time slower than a Honda Civic. This "old" Model S has
two high-performance motors delivering 691 horsepower. The 5-year-old Model S
is still worth more right now on the used market than a brand new top-trim
LEAF.

~~~
mirrormaru
It isn't all about horsepower on a track. The Tesla is certainly MUCH faster
in a straight line, but on a track you need to be able to maintain your speed
through corners.

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blendo
"Even before modifications, the LEAF has some distinct handling advantages.
First, the car is much lighter. ... Or, in short, the LEAF’s battery weighs
less per kWh than the Tesla’s, and it has fewer kWh."

As Lotus's Colin Chapman wisely observed, "Simplify, then add lightness." But
I think we're still 5-7 years from the 400Wh/kg batteries needed to power a
lightweight (1000-1200 kg -- think of a Miata) electric car.

A sad case in point is the new Porsche Taycan 4 passenger sedan, with a curb
(empty) weight of 5,100 lbs/2295 kg, and gross (max) weight of over 6,300
lbs/2880 kg. The kinetic energy of one of these lead sled's at 150mph
terrifies me.

~~~
dpark
> _The kinetic energy of one of these lead sled 's at 150mph terrifies me._

The reality is that a semi-truck loaded up with produce is a bigger risk from
the “turns my car into shrapnel in an crash” scenario.

Also, do you live in Germany or just near a bunch of extremely reckless and
extremely wealthy drivers?

~~~
jboles
Kinetic energy rises with the square of velocity... and the Porsche is much
more likely to be driving unsafely/like an ass than the truck, or in my
experience, even a BMW...

~~~
dpark
> _Kinetic energy rises with the square of velocity_

That's all well and good but a fully-loaded semi-truck weighs 15x as much as a
full-loaded Taycan. My rough calculations say a fully-loaded Taycan driving
150 mph has a kinetic energy of 6.5 MJ while a fully loaded (80 thousand
pound) semi at 80mph has a kinetic energy of 23 MJ. In fact a semi at 45 mph
still has (slightly) more kinetic energy than a Taycan at 150. I wasn't very
good at physics so maybe I screwed this up.

But yes, the Porsche driving 150 is more likely to fly across a median to hit
your family sedan head-on.

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gameswithgo
tires are everything in racing, and the leaf had aftermarket tires

~~~
ourcat
The ability of the drivers helps too.

Maybe they should swap cars and do it again?

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sandworm101
>> This Race Shows How Far Ahead Tesla Is

Only the most hardcore fanboy would see such a loss as as win. Ya, it was a
new leaf against an old tesla. It might have been an unfair race, but this is
still racing. A loss is a loss. The only answer to such a result is to bring
out the better car for the next race. Until then, victory to the victors.

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dmix
Anyone familiar with racing know if its okay if drivers hit the bumpy
red/white edging on the track curves? Or does it slow down the car?

I noticed he was an excellent driver and still hit the sides a few times
seemingly on purpose.

~~~
sandworm101
So long as one of the four wheels remains on the road, it isn't cutting a
corner. It doesn't slow the car much on the _inside_ of the corner as most of
the car's weight is on the outside wheels, particularly with non-race cars
that tend to lean/roll more. But you wouldn't see an F1 car doing this very
much.

~~~
iamaelephant
> But you wouldn't see an F1 car doing this very much.

You see it from every F1 driver on almost every corner of almost every lap.
Have you ever even watched a single F1 race?

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noipv4
For relatively spirited driving, especially in the mountains, how often do
Tesla's overheat? Does overheating reduce drivability dramatically? I have
read that it's the Model S inverters which overheat the most, since the
battery pack is liquid cooled.

~~~
greglindahl
Never for me.

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mhh__
Given that a Tesla weighs almost 2.5 Tonnes, I don't understand the desire to
race them? Surely it will just perform like a bus under braking and roll
around?

They also don't have manual gearboxes, which is a turn off for me personally.

~~~
iknowstuff
Doesn't matter. This is an old Model S which lost solely due to its poor
thermals. The Model 3, particularly with Track Mode enabled, sees very little
performance degradation due to thermals. Keep in mind Teslas' low center of
gravity due to the skateboard battery design.

There is no need for a gearbox in a car with instant torque.

~~~
cromulent
True, unless you want maximum efficiency. Interestingly the Formula E cars are
reducing the number of gears over time.

[https://www.hewland.com/formula-e-transmission-
evolution/](https://www.hewland.com/formula-e-transmission-evolution/)

One of the notable features of the new Porsche Taycan is the two speed
gearbox.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20886641](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20886641)

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et2o
Ridiculous comparison on aftermarket tires. Tires are everything for lap
times.

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baybal2
Nissan leaf — curb weight 1600

Tesla S — curb weight 2200

There are no other explanations needed

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rasz
by drafting 2/3 of the distance in an 50km _endurance race_ against 2014 Tesla
S

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Wistar
I have driven both and lean towards the Model S a bit.

~~~
freyr
I'd expect more than "a bit" for the extra $45,000+. Tesla wins in the looks
department, though.

~~~
ansible
The new Leaf has improved in the looks department. The previous version was
rather... I don't know what words to use, but "meh" comes to mind.

~~~
freyr
To be fair, I don't think the Leaf looks _bad_. The Tesla just looks more like
a "conventionally attractive" higher end sedan.

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robomartin
The real question is: Why does this matter?

Seriously.

Driving around almost any city in the US and the only metric you might care
about is whether or not your car has VTOL capabilities. These comparisons are
ridiculous.

Our urban design, traffic rules and substandard drivers training have ruined
efficient traffic flow and speed. At least I can still go drive on a racetrack
a few times a year.

~~~
ajross
> These comparisons are ridiculous.

Yeah, but they're fun. Overclocking consumer CPUs is likewise ridiculous, but
most of us here read that content too.

I'm just happy that the notion of EV's as legitimate performance vehicles is
finally breaking through.

~~~
mark-r
A while ago I had to stop at a stoplight on the highway, and somebody stopped
in the lane next to me. When the light turned green I stepped on the gas in my
Toyota Camry Hybrid, but the other guy left me like I was standing still.
Didn't see much of his car except the Tesla insignia on the back.

~~~
sandworm101
Drag racing is one thing that electric cars, all of them, can do very well.
The limiting factor is often not how much power can be produced but how much
power the rear axle can handle before snapping. But electric cars are heavy,
at least if you want a battery big enough for more than a couple laps at a
time. They are breaking records based on their acceleration advantages, not
cornering abilities.

~~~
robomartin
Exactly. And even worse when it comes to handling --which can be super
important in real-world accident-avoidance scenarios.

I mention on another comment that I go to the track several times a year.
Aside from that, I have taken several high performance driving/race driving
classes. They are lots of fun and you learn a ton.

During one of our sessions the California Highway Patrol was conducting
training for their cadets on the same track (Willow Springs). They were
driving massive powerful Dodge Chargers. We were driving small turbocharged
Toyota-modified race cars with barely 200 HP.

The Chargers were brutally powerful when compared to the Toyota's. Absolutely
hands-down blew us away on the main straight on the "Streets of Willow"
course. There was nothing you could do if you entered the straight right
behind a Charger, they pulled away from you with resolve.

However, once they got to the corners the situation was laughably reversed.
Their handling is so atrocious when compared to a small nimble car that they
simply could not keep up with the little under-powered Toyotas. The delta in
performance was far greater, noticeably greater, than the delta in 0 to 60
performance on the straight. I mean, the only way to put it is those cars were
absolute dogs in real road course conditions.

This is why the focus on electric car 0 to 60 comparisons, in my opinion, are
pointless. They say nothing about anything of real value for the actual daily-
driver application of these cars.

Here's an example: An electric self-driving car needs to swerve in order to
avoid killing a kid who just ran onto the street after a ball. The 0-to-60
metric says nothing about this vehicle's lateral transient response; the
ability to quickly move laterally. What will save that kid's life isn't how
fast this car can accelerate, but rather how fast it can decelerate or change
lanes, or both.

More to the point, it is widely known that Teslas don't do well at all in
road-course conditions. This is where, as I understand it, Porsche has focused
their differentiation. I don't know if there are any independent real-world
road-course tests yet, but their marketing push seems to speak to the idea
that their focus was to develop an electrical system that would not suffer a
performance drop after a couple of laps. It remains to be seen if and how they
may have achieved this feat.

As a side note, if I was king I'd make it a requirement to have every young
driver go through a weekend actually learning to drive on a race track. I did
that with my son when he was 17. Nothing can explain what you feel when you
see your son in front of you doing 120 mph about to enter a turn. The kid,
after several sessions, became an excellent driver. He has missed turns and
gone off-road and had such experiences as exiting a high speed turn sideways
(and correcting it). Above all, it took the "need for speed" completely out of
him while driving on the streets and he is far more capable than probably 99%
of those around him. I completely trust him with my sports cars because I know
exactly what kind of a driver he is.

~~~
robomartin
BTW, I like Teslas, very much. We will probably purchase one, if not two of
them by the end of the year. I'd simply prefer non-sensationalistic comparison
rather than the opposite. Yes, they should include 0-to-60, of course, but
they should include far more than that in order to reflect real-world usage.
For the overwhelming majority of buyers, drag racing isn't a comparison vector
--by far.

