
13-Year-Old Scientist's Research Shows Hand Dryers Can Hurt Kids' Ears - Osiris30
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/739783918/hand-dryers-harm-childrens-hearing-canadian-study-shows
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schoen
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20282837](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20282837)

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m3at
Relevant thread on the same subject from two weeks ago:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20282837](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20282837)

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maddyboo
Hand dryers need to die.

Their primary benefit is lower cost of operation for the facility, but other
than that, their environmental impact is at best marginally better than paper
towels, and worst is their hygienic aspect.

Various studies have found up to a two-fold increase in bacteria count on
users' hands, as well as a risk of contaminating the surrounding area with
bacteria blown off of the user's skin:

"In 2009 a published study was conducted by the University of Westminster to
compare the levels of hygiene offered by paper towels, warm air hand dryers
and the more modern jet-air hand dryers. It found that after washing and
drying hands with the warm air dryer, the total number of bacteria was found
to increase on average on the finger pads by 194% and on the palms by 254%;
drying with the jet air dryer resulted in an increase on average of the total
number of bacteria on the finger pads by 42% and on the palms by 15%; and
after washing and drying hands with a paper towel, the total number of
bacteria was reduced on average on the finger pads by up to 76% and on the
palms by up to 77%." [1]

The noise aspect discussed in this article is yet another reason air dryers
need to die. I hadn't even considered the effect they might have on kid's
ears, and I'd imagine most adults probably haven't thought about it either. I
find them positively annoying, but having your ears at the same height as
these monstrosities must be horrible.

Kudos to Miss Keegan for her wonderful research!

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_dryer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_dryer)

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sbr464
Regardless of the research, I think what’s not discussed is how the choices
around these devices are typically made by a single owner of a business. As
the population continues to increase, and people generally become more
educated and these types of experiences have more value, how could we come up
with either solutions to the core issue, or solutions to give more funds to a
business owner who would gladly install a better solution if those funds were
available?

Taking a sample of a hundred random people, especially in a larger city, their
values (however ranked) are wildly different, yet one person likely made the
decision on the dryer, dependent still on the strengths of the local paper
(janitorial supplies) company’s salesperson.

Currently, there isn’t a micro donation or registry (wedding registry) type
framework where people can influence these decisions. Something similar could
be in store?

Even Kickstarter, while it allows popular ideas to move forward, doesn’t allow
these types of decisions to be influenced.

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brians
Micro donations? I think this is implemented by the legislature in the
building code. If you’d like to run a restaurant, you must have restrooms with
N urinals and M stalls per space of occupancy. Each restroom must contain K
sinks per facility. You must provide drying apparatus.

Once the towel-squeezers were legal; now they’re not. Dyson next.

~~~
sbr464
I agree with you. That’s why I mentioned solving it at the core first or
creating a new type of framework that enabled influencing these decisions at a
local level, if the former (your point) fails.

I’d also like to point out that the hostility on choice and applicable laws
still fallback to a single Jill or Jack, when 100k people may end up using
their bathroom. It’s the current reality, laws don’t exist at this detail,
except for extremes.

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zeta0134
> In response to these results, Dyson confirmed to NPR in an email that an
> acoustics engineer would be meeting with Nora to discuss her research.

You _go_ girl. Rock on! No matter what happens, what an awesome response from
Dyson to look at this girl's well thought out research and go, "Huh. Yeah, we
should probably give that a second pass."

~~~
jhanschoo
It can be made into a positive thing: e.g. hand dryers with attention paid
towards being comfortable for childrens' ears, marketed especially toward
early education institutions and the like.

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Jonnax
I don't understand why they have to be so loud.

I recently bought a Miele vacuum cleaner, and compared to other cheap vacuums
I've had before. It's significantly quieter whilst still having effective
suction.

Is it cost cutting or is this the best kind of motors possible for hand
dryers?

As a side note: I wonder what the testing conditions are like for these
dryers. Like there's one of the Xcellerator driers at my local bouldering
place's toilet.

It's a very small tilled room. I went once and the sound caused my ears to
ring for hours.

I don't go in without my noise cancelling headphones now haha.

But I imagine if the room was a lot bigger that would not be an issue.

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skosch
Wild speculation: I wonder whether loudness is actually a design goal, to make
the dryer appear more powerful. A sizable number of people are skeptical of
electric vehicles, because they perceive an earth-shaking _vroooom_ to be an
essential part of the driving experience. Could someone with industry
experience chime in?

~~~
bifrost
There are car makers who now use DSPs to process exhaust noise to play INTO
the interior of the car to make people feel like they're driving! I drive a
turboed car, turbos are naturally sound dampening, I'm totally fine with it
being quieter as long as its actually faster.

To the speed point though, I'd probably drive a P100D because they're
ridiculously fast...

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hunter2_
VW even did this mechanically before switching to an electronic version. At
least that means it's easier to shut it up:
[https://www.carworklog.com/2016/07/02/guide-disableturn-
down...](https://www.carworklog.com/2016/07/02/guide-disableturn-down-the-
soundaktor-with-vcds-fake-engine-sound/)

~~~
bifrost
I didn't know about the tube, I def would've plugged that. I have a MKIIV
Golf-R and you can absolutely hear the "Soundaktor in action, its so goofy...

This, frankly, is my favorite sound mod ->
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_owsz8Za_Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_owsz8Za_Y)

~~~
hunter2_
Same here, it's a beast. I've done a slew of other VCDS mods if you're
interested. 5 brake lights instead of 3, tighter lane keep (tesla-like), power
windows after door open engine off, enable menus while driving, rest-of-world
dynamic headlights, brighter blind spot indicators, hazards on skid, no
seatbelt chime, the list goes on and on. And open that center console if it
doesn't open!

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sarego
I read the previous post on this that appeared on HN a couple of weeks back.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20282837](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20282837)

My 3 year old used to close her ears anyways when near any of these hand
dryers but now i warn her when one is about to turn on.

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wmeredith
“In response to these results, Dyson confirmed to NPR in an email that an
acoustics engineer would be meeting with Nora to discuss her research. “

Good for them. And good for her. My son (4) hates these things. He dries his
hands on his shirt instead.

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spankalee
My 4.5 year old son will _not_ let me use them. He'll throw an absolute fit if
I try. I have a lot more sympathy for that now!

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mrfusion
I’ve been suspicious of this for years. These things are incredibly loud and
they’re right at ear level for kids.

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senectus1
My 11yr old son has been complaining about them being way to loud for him for
years as well... I think I own him an apology for not taking the complaint
more seriously.

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klipt
The modern world is full of loud noises that damage our hearing prematurely.

Probably the worst culprits are headphones with the volume too high, and
overly amplified concerts.

~~~
Jonnax
Everyone should be using musician style earplugs at concerts. They're designed
to as best uniformly attenuate the volume to safe levels.

And in my opinion, a good pair always makes the music sound better.

And I never leave with ringing in my ears Because it's no longer just a wall
of noise.

~~~
darkmighty
Do you have any purchase advice/recommendations?

~~~
Jonnax
I've used two primarily:

Alpine MusicSafe Pro

Etymotic Research ER20

I'd say both are comparable. Though the Alpines come with three filters
allowing you to select the level of attenuation.

The Etymotics are bit longer so stick out your ear a bit funny looking, but
they're more cone shaped and are easier to put into your ear.

The Alpines come with a little tool that helps inserting it into your ear.

To be honest they're both quite cheap so try both and not break the bank.

If you want to go higher end you can get ones where you can get a custom mold
to your ear canal. But I don't have a recommendation there.

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zodPod
I mean, these things hurt MY ears too and I'm 30. I will frequently just dry
my hands on my pants. She did a great job!

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jeena
Some air dryers start with a motion detector and and it was impossible to get
most of the kids to even enter the toilet because they were afraid that it
would start the dryer accidentally. I myself was confused why their reaction
was so extreme but didn't think that the noise is much louder at their height
and that their ears are more sensitive to loud noise too.

Interesting that it needs a kid scientist to take this on them because adults
with their height bias didn't measure at those spots.

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sneak
I wonder how sanitary they are, considering that they are basically using a
bunch of bathroom air blasted at your previously-clean hands, too.

I would hate those things even if they were silent.

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astura
You're also breathing bathroom air though?

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sneak
Sure, but blasting a large volume of it at my wet hands I imagine would
concentrate a lot more of the contents of the air on the surface of my hands
than I am breathing.

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tkahnoski
My 3 year old covers his ears in any public bathroom regardless of whether
anyone is even in there.

Hand dryers are one item but there are some toilets that are also excessively
loud as well.

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bifrost
I honestly hate hand dryers, half the time I end up drying my hands on the
sides of my pants if I'm wearing jeans... My kid hates the sound of them too
so it totally makes sense that they're actually bad.

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qazpot
I have never understood hand dryers. I mean how lazy one can be that they need
a machine to blow hot air instead of wiping their hands.

~~~
finder83
They're not for the benefit of people who use them. They're supposedly cheaper
than paper towels for the owner, and there may be some environmental benefit.
I haven't seen research into either claim though.

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probwalk
Kudos to the author!

My toddler son is always scared by the hand dryers. He refused and tried to
escape from bathrooms with hand dryers.

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vasco
Just wipe your hands on your pants after shaking them in the air for a bit.

