
Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice - hmart
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4715838/
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dTal
They don't appear to have run a control with caffeine alone. Caffeine is a
well-established athletic performance-enhancing drug in its own right. Isn't
this a serious flaw with the swim-test portion of this study?

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mattkrause
Figure 1 shows that 5,10,20,50 mg/kg caffeine has an effect on the forced-swim
test, but not as strong as imipramine. Table 1 shows that the same doses of
caffeine don’t make the mice more active in their cage, which might help
address your concern.

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lightedman
"Table 1 shows that the same doses of caffeine don’t make the mice more active
in their cage"

As a former rat owner, and a former locked-up felon, if a rat (or human) is in
a cage, it tends to know and act like it's in one. Caffeine isn't going to
make you suddenly more energetic in your cage unless you've got some other
underlying issues, so that part of the study is instantly suspect.

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blowski
You’re probably right, but that’s an anecdote, not scientific evidence.

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lightedman
I had thousands of other data points in the GP cell right there with me.
Plenty of scientific basis for my conclusion, as I had a good 50 weeks to
observe.

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temporaryvector
I was under the impression that this is a pretty known effect. I used to take
anti-depressants along with CNS stimulants and this definitely was something
that my psychiatrist and my other doctors mentioned to me and considered when
choosing an appropriate dosage.

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Vaslo
They have spent a lot of money to research the fact that people are less
productive when hungover. I guess even known things are targets for scarce
research dollars.

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Mirioron
It's also important to figure out the magnitude of the effect.

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youeseh
I hope one day the mice will finally thank us for all the hard work we've done
in improving their quality of life.

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friendlybus
They're doing the tests on us.

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taneq
Well, if you look at the results...

X cures cancer _in mice_

Y increases lifespan _in mice_

Z improves disease resistance _in mice_

W reverses cognitive decline _in mice_

The signs are all there.

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mattkrause
I sometimes joke that the NIMH[0] is actually the National Institute for Mouse
Health.

[0] Yes, like the rats! It's a real institute (National Institute for Mental
Health).

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taneq
Mrs Frisby has no idea what you're talking about. :D

Jenner, however, is an engineer like the rest of us.

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frereubu
Full title gives a bit more context: "Caffeine enhances the antidepressant-
like activity of common antidepressant drugs in the forced swim test in mice."

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seibelj
My perfect day is 8 hours of caffeine, an hour at the gym, 4 hours of alcohol,
SSRI for a nightcap. YMMV

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dTal
I hope you're exaggerating - that kind of cocktail is going to kill your sleep
quality and, in the long-term, quite possibly fry your brain.

Thumbs up on the exercise though.

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seibelj
I usually let these types of comments enable interesting discussion, but given
the response and the worry that it validates someone else’s lifestyle, I must
say that it was tongue-in-cheek. My perfect day does not imply my everyday.
Please don’t drink alcohol for 4 hours every dear reader!

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dTal
I am glad to hear that you were indeed joking!

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newnewpdro
TIL "forced swim test", right up there with "rapid unscheduled disassembly".

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dan-robertson
The methodology here is typical for testing antidepressants with animals but
many people find it somewhat horrifying:

First the mice are made to be depressed by exposing them to constant sounds of
birds screeching and other predators. Next some are given the intervention.
The level of depression is then measured by putting the mice in a container of
deep water from which there is no escape, and timing how long until the mouse
gives up swimming. The mice are not left to drown but are fished out and
killed in a presumably more-humane way (chronically depressed mice are not
otherwise useful).

A second ethical issue with studies with mice is that occasionally the
unfortunate phd student tasked with dispatching the mice will not have been
taught any way to do so and will have to try to come up with something on the
spot. This can be quite traumatic for both parties.

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andbberger
> A second ethical issue with studies with mice is that often the unfortunate
> phd student tasked with dispatching the mice will not have been taught any
> way to do so and will have to try to come up with something on the spot.
> This can be quite traumatic for both parties.

uhhhhhh are you sure about that?? This strikes me as a flagrant violation of
policy. Animal studies are heavily regulated.

In my experience, (and mind you I've only ever worked adjacent to animal labs,
not directly in them) there is always a canister of CO2 and a euthanization
chamber on standby in experiments where there is a risk of injuring the mice.

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samatman
While this is standard, it shouldn't be.

Mammals sense CO2 buildup, not oxygen depletion. By smothering with CO2, the
mice spend their last moments desperate to breathe and unable to.

If they were to use nitrogen instead, the mice, having no way to know they've
been deprived of oxygen, would just pass out and die.

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andbberger
There's a good chance I have that wrong and they use nitrogen. Like I said, I
don't work in animal labs, just adjacent to them.

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nothrabannosir
I knew someone who worked with lab rats; her job was to kill them and she had
to use CO2.

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LatteLazy
We have so little understanding of basically anything about the brain or
mental health issues, it's the next big frontier in medicine.

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tgb29
Studies have shown that caffeine in moderation encourages learning.

