

Would you have answered this job ad? - dhotson
http://groups.google.com/group/mi.jobs/msg/d81b6c1fa8f361fc

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aneesh
Probably not (much to my regret). The only distinguishing factor is Bezos'
name, and that is obvious only in retrospect. I see too many ads like this
everyday for any one to stand out. Anyway, I'm going to console myself by
saying I would've replied and seen them in person, and immediately realized
they were onto something huge, blah blah blah

~~~
henning
If anything the ad could discourage some because, not knowing any better, it
may have looked like Bezos was one of those people who thinks you can make a
late project finish sooner by working sweatshop hours (3x more hours to finish
in 1/3 the time).

Everyone asks for "communication skills" and everyone says they're the best
and that their shit doesn't stink, too.

~~~
cstejerean
I actually would have responded just for the "you should be able to do so in
about one-third the time that most competent people think possible" part.

Note that it doesn't say work 3x longer. I measure time in hours not days, so
finishing something 3x faster doesn't mean 120hour weeks, it means finishing
something in 13 hours instead of 40.

~~~
euccastro
What determines the meaning of that phrase is not how you measure time; it's
how the employer measures time. And what ultimately matters to them is days.
Hours only matter (and that, to _some_ employers) inasmuch they affect your
present or future productivity, measured in functionality/day.

~~~
cstejerean
An employer can certainly measure time in days, and sometimes demand/expect
people to put in extra hours in order to make a deadline.

But working extra hours doesn't make one more productive than average and no
employer should measure productivity that way. If person A works 80 hours per
week and gets as much done as person B that works 40 hours per week no
employer will claim that A is as productive as B.

On a side note, given that I do contract work currently you can be certain
that both me and my employer measure time in hours not days.

------
gaborcselle
Compare: "You must have experience designing and building large and complex
(yet maintainable) systems, and you should be able to do so in about one-third
the time that most competent people think possible. You should have a BS, MS,
or PhD in Computer Science or the equivalent."

with: "Requirements: BS or MS in Computer Science or equivalent (PhD a plus).
Several years of software development experience. Extensive experience
programming in C++ and/or Java. Enthusiasm for solving interesting problems.
Experience with Unix/Linux or Windows environments, C++ development,
distributed systems, machine learning, information retrieval, network
programming and/or developing large software systems a plus."

The first is from Amazon, the latter is from Google.

Great companies grow where top-notch engineers meet exciting market meet
confident coworkers with high expectations. :-)

~~~
nostrademons
Compare:

"Energetic detail-oriented software engineer who wants to create systems with
mind-numbing performance. Should enjoy working with people, solving non-
trivial problems, and communicating these solutions. Should also wish to learn
more about how others have engineered high-performance systems. We desire
someone who is an expert in at least some of the following areas and eager to
learn the others: distributed computing, compilers & interpreters, fault
tolerance, network & storage devices, high-performance computation, algorithms
& data structures, os/kernel experience."

That's from my last employer, which has been around for 8 years and has I
believe about 4 recurring customers. In the 2 years I was there, they got no
new major customers and only a few consulting jobs. 3 key employees have left
in the last 8 months.

My point is that all job applications basically look alike. It's very
difficult to pick out winners just from the job-app. In hindsight, the big
successful companies all require top-notch engineers, exciting markets, and
confident coworkers with high expectations. But many employers have that (or
ask for it; it's often hard to tell the difference until you've been working
there for a while) and still fail.

------
plusbryan
Probably not. Clearly, he has unrealistic expectations of success. Who would
buy things on the internet?

~~~
jdavid
in '94/'95 i remember my friends telling me about ebay in gym class. doh, i
wish i would have seen the potential of selling your stuff to strangers.

~~~
jgrahamc
Must have been late 1995 (if not 1996) given eBay's start date.

~~~
jdavid
a few of my friends were really wired. one ended up dropping out of high
school to program at $150k a year, others at $80k a year. It was an insane
time. And it could have been another auction site, but i remember "something"
bay. McHenry, IL had a pretty interesting BBS network. If only I was roaming
on their instead of roaming on prodigy net.

------
petercooper
The quote in his signature is very prescient:

"It's easier to invent the future than to predict it." -- Alan Kay

~~~
neilk
Anybody who quotes Alan Kay (even a misquote) has my attention.

~~~
tlrobinson
Another good one:

"Arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras"

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ROTJKkhuI>

------
mattjung
He was obviously looking for the right people for the right OS and programming
languages at that time for highly scalable communication systems. Would be
interesting to compare that with job offers of competitors of that time (who
were those, btw?).

~~~
byrneseyeview
I think there were a few technical bookstores online, but he was one of the
very earliest, and certainly the first to try to have a larger scope (e.g.
before it was 'let's sell our inventories online', Amazon's idea was 'let's
sell every possible book online').

Interestingly enough, Amazon was (if I recall correctly) started as a research
project: David Shaw (of the hedge fund D. E. Shaw) asked Bezos (then a VP
there) for a list of ways to make money online. At the top of Bezos' list was
bookstores. Shaw decided it wasn't worth the risk, Bezos decided it was, so
Bezos left the company to found Amazon. Shaw ended up starting Juno, though,
so it's not a total loss.

------
ardit33
The add seems very reasonable (in the startup mentality kind of way):

"Well-capitalized start-up seeks extremely talented C/C++/Unix developers to
help pioneer commerce on the Internet. " -- Good. I want to work with only
other top notch developers.

"You must have experience designing and building large and complex (yet
maintainable) systems, and you should be able to do so in about one-third the
time that most competent people think possible. " -- Ok. I get it, you want
the very good fast types. But are you willing to pay for it?

"Familiarity with web servers and HTML would be helpful but is not necessary.
" -- Awesome. You just showed that you know what is important. Don't you love
adds that say must know HTML. How hard is to learn anyways?

"Your compensation will include meaningful equity ownership. " -- Awesome.
This is what I wanted to hear. You want great developers, but you are willing
to compesate them in a meaningful and fair way.

If I knew C/C++ that well, at the time, and if I wasn't in school, and if I
was around the area of Seatles, I would have responded to his ad.

I am still waiting for some ad like this, but in the mobile space.

~~~
aneesh
1) Yeah, it's a reasonable ad - but that's my point. Almost all ads are
"reasonable". You never see an ad saying "Startup looking for mediocre
developers." Nothing about this one really resonates.

2) "if I wasn't in school, and if I was around the area of seatles". If I knew
this was going to be Amazon, I would MOVE to Seattle and take a leave of
absence from school.

~~~
vlad
> You never see an ad saying "Startup looking for mediocre developers."
> Nothing about this one really resonates.

Not true. Auctomatic had a job ad for a long time looking for a so-so
developer. I answered it right away but was distracted from learning smalltalk
at the time.

Here it is: <http://blog.auctomatic.com/?p=4> . It's hilarious.

~~~
aneesh
Yeah, it is hilarious. I'm also pretty sure it's not serious.

~~~
Harj
yes. anyone who replied that ad thinking it was serious, we (unsurprisingly)
didn't hire...

~~~
vlad
I thought it was a great ad, on top of the Y2Combinator parody from around
that time.

------
sbt
No. Suppose you're that good. Then you don't think you're that good.

------
kajecounterhack
I wouldn't have the confidence to apply, thanks to "You must have experience
designing and building large and complex (yet maintainable) systems, and you
should be able to do so in about one-third the time that most competent people
think possible."

------
jdavid
something else to learn from this, is how we should all look for employees. a
number of the books i have read like "good to great" and "built to last" have
suggested the only true way to build a great company is to create an
environment where the right people flock, and the wrong people leave on their
own. setting the bar this high from the start will have this effect, and will
give you the authority to tell someone the are good, but just not what you
were looking for. it will keep your costs low, the expectations high, and the
time you spend managing down.

i wonder which amazon employee/ founder was hired as a result of that ad.

------
sohail
I was thinking "sweet" and then I saw the name and started laughing.

------
prakash
good find.

was a seattle a big startup hub in the early 90's? What else was there besides
MSFT in the tech sector?

~~~
byrneseyeview
I believe Bezos relocated from New York to Seattle because it was cheap and
because there was a major wholesale bookstore there.

------
DaniFong
I've answered far less intriguing ads in my 'desperate for a job phase'. The
fact is that I'm simply not looking at job ads most of the time, and I'll
probably only work on something if I already know the person, or I really,
really like the idea.

So it really depends on whether or not I see it.

------
raghus
Two years after that posting, comes this:
[http://groups.google.com/group/seattle.general/browse_thread...](http://groups.google.com/group/seattle.general/browse_thread/thread/4565a0ffdb19670b/0f3ba2135943ce01#0f3ba2135943ce01)

------
jdavid
going to museums hardly makes me weep, but stuff like this touches a special
place in my heart. i always wonder what the future of digital anthropology
will be like, especially in the wake of DRM, and encryption.

------
run4yourlives
So, who'd he hire with that?

~~~
henning
People whose idea of a customer support program was an Emacs Lisp script.

<http://bc.tech.coop/blog/060304.html>

~~~
graywh
The quote on that post mentions pg as an Emacs users, but he's used vim for
years.

~~~
henning
Yes, but Knuth, jwz and many other famous people are Emacs users.

------
jrockway
I would have answered it if they were hiring 9-year olds :) Although, I think
I knew more C++ back then than I do now. Sad. :)

------
wave
It seems some replied back saying "commerce on the Internet will never work,
because people prefer to buy things in stores".

(click on "Show quoted text") <http://tinyurl.com/52gdhr>

~~~
acangiano
That's a joke. It's from 2003.

------
aswanson
Maybe someone in the MA area will be kicking themselves for not answering this
one in a few years:

<http://friendfeed.com/about/contact>

~~~
nostrademons
I may be one of those someones in the MA area. ;-)

Actually, I can think of at least two offers that I may kick myself for not
taking up. But if I did, I might kick myself for giving up my own startup. If
only we all had 20/20 foresight...

~~~
aswanson
_If only we all had 20/20 foresight.._

Yeah, not nearly enough of that going around.

------
aswanson
Yeah, I was pretty broke in college.

------
kashif
I was 14. Child labor...no no!

------
jrnewton
no, i don't _really_ know the platform or langauge (unix/c)..

------
rexmo
wot a boffin

