
China Accuses U.S. of Cyberwarfare - phsr
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/01/china-accuses-us/
======
heresy
Don't they realize how dumb they look?

Their standard response to any criticism is to dig through things which have
happened in the past as a result of US action, make huge leaps of logic, and
then justify whatever it is they did in terms of that.

Never mind the right or the wrong of the issue...

I guess that's the sin/shame culture difference. For them it doesn't matter
what they did, it matters that they got caught. And justifying it in terms of
what someone else did means they regain "honor" or whatever the fuck it is
they're trying to do...

~~~
Towle_
>Don't they realize how dumb they look?

I think this is the wrong question to ask. More like, "Do they care at all how
they are perceived in the West?"

And the answer to that question has to be a resounding "NO"-- and for good
reason.

Attempts at 'real diplomacy' (define as you will) are for nations which have
reason to fear the repercussions of their actions. For the CCP, no such fear
exists, nor should it. What's the worst any nation will do in retaliation to
anything China has done throughout this whole affair, including, but not
limited to, lying about what happened?

What is the United States or anyone else going to do? Embargo CHINA? Risk war
(cyber or real-world) WITH CHINA? Obviously not. We need them too much; if we
couldn't trade with China, the standard of living in the US would plummet,
tons and tons of American corporations would go under, and countless Americans
would be out of work because of it. Dislike the CCP for their ideological
differences though we may, we'd never do anything more than slap them on the
wrist (in 2010, anyway...2030 is a different story).

The CCP knows they're untouchable. That's why they act the way they do.

edit: Sorry about the caps lock. I'm a noob here and don't know how to
italicize or bold yet. :( Halp, anyone?

edit #2: In the paragraph which begins, "Attempts at...": When I say, "For the
CCP, no such fear exists, nor should it," I do NOT mean to say that it is a
good thing for any nation to have license to act in this way. Rather, it was
my intent to say that the CCP is correct to believe they can get away with
such actions without risking serious repercussion.

~~~
sparky
You can italicize with stars. Don't think you can bold.

~~~
Towle_
Thanks _sparky_

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dandelany
Yes, China. Ensuring Twitter does not go down during times of civil unrest is
definitely cyberwarfare. </sarcasm>

~~~
eagleal
It's interesting to see how US people doesn't count Internet (and
cyberwarfare) as a Political instrument. EDIT: Not only US people, EUs too.

You really think [USA, NATO, EU, ... ], doesn't make use of [massive]
cyberwarfare? And that cases like Google's or Iran's doesn't make profit to
Big Members of NATO?

~~~
delackner
I don't know why you were modded down, you are just stating your opinion.

But your response has a basic logical misunderstanding. Both the US and China
engage in cyber warfare, but making sure that Twitter is stable during a
period of heavy use by protesters is clearly NOT "warfare", it is ensuring the
free flow of information.

More and more I am seeing the logic of those that say Chinese censorship is a
violation of their WTO Free Trade obligations, as it allows them to sell their
information services internationally without also allowing foreign firms to
sell their information in China. This is restraint of trade, a protectionist
attitude that will harm their development in the long run.

~~~
eagleal
If we want to stack only at Twitter, it was only 1 of the several tools (news
media too) USA (and whoever made profit) to make propaganda, yes actions like
this are still called propaganda. This is the same method it used to invade
Iraq, though used different tools. (Be aware that this is my opinion as I
don't have sources.)

definition: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda>

Look, I'm Albanian, I'm not attacking anyone, nor I'm interested in doing it.

EDIT: _For those of you thinking we live in a free world. Try writing down
anything that undermines your country leaders, or what they won't you to say:
in fact we don't know what to say, because if we did we couldn't (we will be
the second one to know about it). We will be taken down as a National Security
threat._

See the Joseph Goebbels quote by _chrisb_ down.

~~~
delackner
OK, here: The elected and un-elected leadership of the United States practice
terrorism and illegal manipulation of other countries in the world, and the
US' own citizens, for the purpose of maintaining and increasing control over
markets and natural resources. They have no real interest in the freedom of
their citizens or of other peoples. Further, the government works primarily
for the benefit of moneyed interests and has been thus since the founding of
the republic.

These are statements that I think you would agree "undermine the [US']
leaders." But we have the right to say them, and it is something we are very
proud of. Almost all countries claim to offer this right to their citizens,
but the US actually does grant it and protect it.

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chrisb
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually
come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State
can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military
consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to
use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of
the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
- Joseph Goebbels

True in the 1940s and still true today.

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derwiki
"... said the article, according to Guardian"

Why couldn't Wired quote the original article instead of getting it second
hand from Guardian?

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InclinedPlane
This sounds like a preemptive attempt at a "tu quoque" (aka "no u") defense.
China has been caught out in a fairly blatant cyberwarfare attack and is now
trying to defuse blame. Not to mention attempting to justify their vast,
ridiculous censorship efforts.

~~~
kingkongreveng_
I hope you realize the US also has extensive cyber espionage efforts.

~~~
enomar
References please. I suspect you're right, but I'd never claim it as fact
without some evidence.

~~~
barrkel
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/820758.stm>

"... US firm Raytheon used information picked up from NSA snooping to secure a
$1.4bn contract to supply a radar system to Brazil instead of France's
Thomson-CSF.

"[...]

"But former CIA director James Woolsey, in an article in March for the Wall
Street Journal, acknowledged that the US did conduct economic espionage
against its European allies, though he did not specify if Echelon was
involved."

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berntb
I've noticed that trolls tend to accuse others of the same dishonest arguing
methods they use. For people just skimming the discussion, it looks like two
people calling each others the same names...

