

AppGratis Apple AppStore Appeal - bussetta
http://jacquesmattheij.com/appgratis-apple-appstore-appeal

======
scotch_drinker
It seems that arguments siding with Apple here are all various flavors of "The
rules are the rules". But after you leave grade school, if you still think the
rules really are the rules, you haven't been paying attention. Rules at every
level, business, government, personal, are all flexible and open to constant
interpretation depending on who benefits most from the interpretation.

I'm struck by another recent headline case in this community, that of Aaron
Swartz. The rules were capriciously enforced in that case as well. Yet the
community largely came out on the side of Swartz (and probably rightly so)
then. But it's just another high profile case where rules are never the rules
when humans are involved.

Saying that AppGratis should have known not to build their business on the
AppStore platform or they should have known not to break the rules is an easy
way to ignore the fact that capricious enforcement of rules has consequences
far beyond the ecosystem in which they are made. It's a viewpoint that is
naive at best and callous at worst.

Which is a bunch of words to say exactly what mattdeboard said: "There's a
bunch of Ayn Rand horseshit going on in this thread"

~~~
rmrfrmrf
This CEO and his 45 employees now have the freedom of using the money they
spent to scam users and devs to create an app that actually adds value to the
world.

I really dont care about Apple's rules--all they really do is spell out the
obvious intention of the App Store to idiots who need things spoon-fed to
them.

------
bsaul
My personnal rule to guess whether a business model that rely on the app store
is going to get destroyed by apple someday is this : whenever you make money,
does apple make money too ? If they don't ( and i mean directly, not because
they'll sell hardware thx to your little app) then one day they'll get at you.
In the case of appgratis, they were loosing money. Appgratis was redirecting
cash from the appstore into their pockets ( i know, that's a very short term
way of looking at it).

~~~
TheAnimus
If your business model is dependant on one other entity for existence, you've
got a risky model.

~~~
etfb
My lemonade stand is dependent on customers not stabbing me in the eye and
leaving me to bleed out while they steal all my lemons. That's one end of a
continuum. Where do you draw the line? And, more importantly, who gives any of
us the right to say "nyaa nyaa toldja so" because someone else drew their line
differently?

~~~
rmrfrmrf
I would love, just once, for someone to make an argument on the internet
without coming up with some ridiculous scenario to make a direct comparison
to. It's really not that hard to "draw the line" between assault/robbery and
getting your app rejected by Apple.

~~~
etfb
A line is defined by two points. Doesn't matter how far away the other point
is. When you're trying to convince someone of the existence of the line,
that's how you do it.

------
rmrfrmrf
AppGratis and needless middle-man apps like it are a plague and Apple was good
to get rid of them.

One thing I love and respect Apple for is their enforcement of the "spirit" of
the App Store, rather than enslaving themselves to the letter of their
contracts. Reading that "appeal" from the AppGratis CEO would make you believe
that they're a benevolent company helping the entire world, when really it's
pretty easy to read between the lines and see that this was a spammy company
whose intention was to skim revenue off the top of the huge AppStore pool by
harassing people who download the app.

People think that the App Store approval process is so fickle, but really,
it's easy: make a good, original app that stays sandboxed and that makes
people _want_ to use it rather than you pestering the user, and it will get
approved.

~~~
matwood
I mostly agree with you, but AppGratis and apps like it point out huge
problems with the app store. Discovery and marketing sucks. We have an app
with IAPs (not coins, but content) and there is no way for our IAP content to
be discovered through the store. Simple app discovery is a mess. Trial apps do
not exist.

Don't even get me started on the mess that is customer communication. If
someone gets a return on your app, good luck finding out any sort of reason.
As a developer I want to help each and every customer and make sure they have
a great experience, but Apple makes that hard or impossible at every turn.

------
dantiberian
There's two separate issues here, the way Apple handled the rejection, and the
policy that led to the rejection.

While Apple handled it badly, Appgratis was breaking the rules and deserved
like many other apps to be pulled. The real issue was the paid promotion which
Apple is trying to stamp out.

~~~
aeonflux
Apple should reject this App eariler. Thats the one thing you can blame them
for.

~~~
jonitoo
Appgratis started their business 3 years ago, rule 2.25 appeared in Sept 2012.

~~~
objclxt
...but the other rule Apple told them they'd broken, regarding push
notifications, has been around pretty much forever. Well, since push went into
the platform.

And yes, push notification advertising is the most broken rule on the store,
but I always used to make clients who I built apps for understand that at
least contractually it wasn't allowed.

------
planetjones
This article makes a fair point. Whether AppGratis breaks the guidelines or
not - Apple did act in a very unprofessional manner. They could have waited a
day or two and given the CEO a right to respond before pulling it.

But this is the risk you take when you build a Business around Apple's app
store - any intelligent investors and employees should have known the risks,
before committing to AppGratis.

As a sidenote, I'm really struggling to compute how AppGratis has 45 members
of staff - whichever way I look at it (developers, sales, accounts) I can't
see them needing more than 10.

~~~
asmosoinio
> As a sidenote, I'm really struggling to compute how AppGratis has 45 members
> of staff - whichever way I look at it (developers, sales, accounts) I can't
> see them needing more than 10.

Care to share your back of the envelope calculations on this...?

~~~
planetjones
Definitely back of a cigaratte packet. But they're not writing the apps so
it's just a front end, website and some discovery code - presumably the
infrastructure is cloud managed...

Maybe if I'm a little more realistic: 5 developers, 5 sales people, 3
managers, 3 to configure / manage the infrastructure, 2 to manage admin and
accounts. So 18 people ? Struggling to get to 45...

These free app apps sound a bit like a Bubble - aren't they the Groupon,
Living Social, etc. of the day ?

EDIT: For translating the languages everyday are we really saying they would
be full time members of AppGratis staff - wouldn't this be outsourced
somewhere.

~~~
jacquesm
How about creating content in a whole pile of languages every day again and
again?

------
bosch
I wonder if he realizes they were taking payments for placements? (A few
people mentioned 100k)

------
senthilnayagam
people take pleasure taking potshots at apple, the app should not have been in
the first place.

google yanked 60k apps, you dont see 60 posts about them

~~~
matwood
If you do a bit of searching you'll find Google is always yanking apps. Since
anyone can upload anything to the Play store Google has to go around and pull
the obvious scam stuff down on a regular basis. Something like AppGratis with
lots of users and high ratings would not have been touched by Google.

------
sgdesign
Well, people who are already users of the app can still use it like before,
right? So I don't think you can say Apple is endangering the company in the
short term.

Sure, it sucks to lose a few days' growth, but it should still be possible to
AppGratis to do whatever it is they need to do to be accepted and go on with
their life. Or am I missing something?

~~~
k-mcgrady
It may affect their ranking in the App Store charts which, if they get back in
the store, could really hurt the company's growth long term.

------
mattdeboard
Bunch of Ayn Rand horseshit going on in this thread.

------
andyfleming
As an end-user, I rarely, if ever, had to deal with the consequences of an app
being rejected or delayed for release. Along the same lines, I feel that Apple
has consistently protected the user experience with strict guidelines.

~~~
krichman
In many ways yes. But there is also the fact that they are protecting you in
method similar to a dry country protecting you from alcohol, many apps that
should be a choice are simply unavailable.

------
mcherm
I'll jump on the "Ayn Rand" bandwagon.

Apple is free to play BS games like this, yanking long-established companies
without any reasonable notice or discussion. The companies are welcome to
refuse to deal with Apple because of it (and everyone in this business has
heard of similar stories before... you can't claim to be surprised that Apple
behaves capriciously with regard to the AppStore).

But once we get past the "Ayn Rand" philosophy, I want to point out that
everyone is hurting themselves. Apple is hurting themselves by raising the
perceived RISK of their marketplace in the eyes of developers. Developers are
hurting themselves by playing along with this game (although, to be fair,
there is money to be made). I wish everyone would just grow up (starting with
Apple).

------
brudgers
The AppStore is direct retail, even if we are disinclined to view it that way.

Walmart won't guarantee shelf space for stuffed unicorns just because a
company makes them. It won't guarantee shelf space tomorrow just because a
company has some today.

Apple offers the same standard terms to everyone. Those who think they make
business sense can agree. Those who don't are free to pursue other options.

The inconsistency in Apple's interpretation and implementation of Appstore
policies is a known risk. The dominance and dependence relationship between
Apple and developers is spelled out clearly and multiple times. Your good
business decision to enter the app store is irrelevant when making my business
decision.

------
madewulf
Does somebody know if appgratis informed its users that apps were paying to be
featured?

I would say that this is an important point to find out if this can qualify as
an ethical business model

~~~
johnpowell
I had used it a while ago for a few days. I had no idea that people paid to
get a app listed. I figured they made money by affiliate links. But everything
they recommended and I tried was pretty shitty. So it all makes sense now.

------
undrcvr
Shame on you for trusting apple (or any other vendor) with your business.
Develop for open platforms or be ready for things like this to happen.

------
cuillevel3
I can't follow the "breaking the rules" argument in this thread: They were
talking to several people at Apple and were told everything is ok.

Additionally Apples rules are not clear guidelines, everybody is in some kind
of validation.

