

TSA Confiscates Toy Monkey's Toy Gun - mhb
http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/12/she-said-this-is-a-gun-i-said-no-its-a-prop-for-my-monkey.html

======
timje1
"She said ‘ _If I held it up to your neck, you wouldn’t know if it was real or
not,_ ’ and I said ‘really?’"

Here's the crux of the matter - a two inch gun was taken because the TSA agent
made a judgement call, and the TSA agent appears to lack judgement.

~~~
owenmarshall
>Here's the crux of the matter - a two inch gun was taken because the TSA
agent made a judgement call, and the TSA agent appears to lack judgement.

I don't think I can agree here.

I read this as "A two inch gun was taken because the TSA agent followed
procedure over common sense and logic".

In all likelihood TSA agents are _forbidden_ to deviate from the manual, which
likely states that "replica guns are not allowed on airplanes."

The solution will likely be that the manual is amended to provide allowable
dimensions for replica firearms, and TSA supervisors will be presented with
tape measures to check to see if the gun in question is greater than the
allowable 2 5/8" in length, and god help you if you leave home without first
measuring your sock monkey's gun, or your stuffed bear's blunderbuss.

~~~
bullseye
> I read this as "A two inch gun was taken because the TSA agent followed
> procedure over common sense and logic".

This defense fell apart the moment the TSA agent said "If I held it up to your
neck, you wouldn’t know if it was real or not." In other words, she graduated
from blindly following protocol to being an idiot.

~~~
owenmarshall
Maybe not - as others note in this thread there are real guns that _could_
match the description of this one. Whether or not those guns are lethal enough
to warrant being removed from a flight is a very valid question.

Before we cast aspersions on the TSA agent, let's look at it from her
perspective. The TSA has rules that say replica guns are not allowed on
flights. The TSA is not likely an agency that smiles upon its front line
employees exercising discretion. Her options are:

1) to confiscate the "offending" item, as supported by her training and the
TSA policies, or

2) to decide the item is not a threat and let it pass security.

If she takes the first option, she risks a bit of media hullabaloo being
directed at the TSA. If she takes the second she risks being wrong (what if it
_is_ a gun and someone is shot, what if someone on the airplane sees it and
panics because _they_ think it is a gun,...) and being held accountable.

And even if she lets it go through what's to say a supervisor who is
evaluating the front line agents doesn't take note of a deviation from
training/policy and fire her then?

The TSA agent was acting, in my mind, _completely rationally_ given the
framework under which she has to act. If we want to blame anyone here we need
to look straight to the system.

~~~
simoncion
> The TSA has rules that say replica guns are not allowed on flights.

Could you link to those rules? TIA.

------
Jacqued
When you read that, you know that each and every day, Ousama Bin Laden wins a
thousand small victories as soulless "security" agents make americans (and
travelers) lose freedom over an unjustified paranoia.

All that because of a single attack which produced an unsignificant number of
casualties more than 10 years ago.

I don't think they could have envisioned that in their wildest dreams. And the
best part is that the right wing extremists and security junkies are the
terrorists' greatest allies, and still keep their legacy alive.

~~~
joshdance
I agree that terrorists win when we lose freedoms, but saying the number of
casualties was "unsignificant" is maybe a bit too much. 2,977 people is a lot
of people. Each is significant.

~~~
owenmarshall
Just for perspective, for every one person that died as a result of the
September 11 attacks, around 167 Iraqi's died as a result of our invasion. And
that might even be a charitable estimate.

~~~
MartinCron
That doesn't make our loss of nearly 3000 "unsignifigant" it just means that
our response was deplorable.

~~~
Kequc
I disagree, at a certain point it does.

Imagine the roles were reversed and some jerks from the US went and killed
3000 middle easterners. As a response they invade america and over the course
of 10 years kill nearly 20,000% as many people as died in that original
attack. Still call the death toll from the original jerks to the middle
easterners significant?

~~~
MartinCron
You think I haven't gone through the basic thought experiment of imagining the
roles reversed? That's why I was against going to war in the first place, even
though I felt like the only person in the country who felt that way.

Regardless, each and every innocent life lost is still significant.

~~~
Kequc
To be fair though, that can be 'said' easily. But dramatic human suffering is
occurring all over the world right now and most people don't pay a whole lot
of attention. So it isn't really all that significant in reality.

------
JshWright
Without a closer inspection, I'd say it's perfectly plausible that the gun
pictured in the article would be capable of discharging a projectile. Perhaps
it's quite obvious when you look at it up close from several angles, but that
was the TSA employee's point... it if was being used to threaten someone, they
wouldn't necessarily be able to take the time to examine it...

As an example, here's a gun that's very similar in size to the prop, that is
quite capable of killing you (and four of your friends):

[http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/na...](http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/naa_NAA-22MSC_b.jpg)

~~~
bullseye
Note that the gun you linked is 4-5 inches in total length. It's still quite
small, but not similar enough in my opinion to a 2-inch prop gun.

EDIT: The gun is 3 5/8" in length.

At any rate, my problem is not the TSA agent's actions anyway, but her
justification. If she had just shrugged and said "I know it's stupid but I
have to confiscate this", then we wouldn't be talking about her. Instead, she
heaped more coals on the already absurd security panic fire by suggesting that
someone could be menacing with a 2-inch gun. This is the kind of crap that
spawns memes.

------
DanBC
Schools would impose severe punishments on a child that took that gun to the
school. ([http://www.freerangekids.com/suspended-for-a-
keychain/](http://www.freerangekids.com/suspended-for-a-keychain/))
([http://www.clickorlando.com/news/boy-suspended-after-
using-f...](http://www.clickorlando.com/news/boy-suspended-after-using-finger-
as-pretend-gun/-/1637132/22204876/-/hfv59e/-/index.html)) etc etc.

There are real guns around that size, firing 2.34 mm rimfire cartriges.
(apologies if I get any of this terminology wrong.) They do have the potential
to be lethal weapons. But then so does the pencil I'm allowed to take on, and
the glass and cutlery they give me when I'm on the plane.

But they confiscate airline cutlery from people going through security. Even
if that cutlery was presented to the person flying. Even if that person is a
pilot. The pilot, for the plane that they're boarding, and they're in full
uniform, trying to get on the plane to fly it but being delayed while their
airline issued cutlery is removed.
[http://www.cracked.com/article_16849_the-7-dumbest-things-
ev...](http://www.cracked.com/article_16849_the-7-dumbest-things-ever-done-by-
airport-
security_p2.html?wa_user1=3&wa_user2=Weird+World&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=companion)

~~~
commandar
>There are real guns around that size, firing 2.34 mm rimfire cartriges.
(apologies if I get any of this terminology wrong.)

Your terminology is fine, but the key fact is that they generate less than a
foot-pound of energy.

[http://www.swissminigun.ch/ammunition.html](http://www.swissminigun.ch/ammunition.html)

For comparison, .22 LR -- which is the least powerful common firearm caliber
-- generally develops in the neighborhood of 75ft-lbs of energy.

A pellet gun is around 20 ft-lbs.

~~~
JshWright
[http://www.impactguns.com/naa-22-combo-1-18in-22lr-22mag-
cyl...](http://www.impactguns.com/naa-22-combo-1-18in-22lr-22mag-
cylinders-22mscnaa-22msc-744253000232.aspx)

Same general size as the prop in the article, capable of carrying 5 .22LR
cartridges.

~~~
commandar
>Same general size as the prop in the article

No, it's not.

Overall Length 4 1/2"

Overall Height 2 3/8"

Width 13/16"

[http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/lr/llr.html](http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/lr/llr.html)

Even a single shot derringer is going to be noticeably larger than that toy
prop.

------
ibudiallo
This reminds me of yesterday's post :
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6881662](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6881662)

The criminalization of everyday life. Not that long ago (pre 9/11) the
security officer in the airport would have called it cute or make a comment of
the like. Today the traveler risked prison time and a permanent criminal
record.

------
coldcode
Guns don't kill people, sock puppet monkeys do.

------
bananacurve
This is what passes for intellectually gratifying on HN these days.

------
btbuildem
I suspect the TSA monkey wanted her own gun, so she stole it.

------
yaddayadda
After (incorrectly) determining the impact of an theoretical bullet fired from
the toy gun...

>All of which is to say that if a terrorist put it up to your neck, you would
know whether it was real or not and whether to be worried. _And you would then
kick that terrorist 's ass._ [emphasis mine]

Only to find out the original calculations over-estimated any impact.

This made my day!!! This totally made my day!!!

