
Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code - jseliger
http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2014/03/13/have-liberal-arts-degree-will-code/?mod=trending_now_1
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dragonwriter
> If a 10-year-old can become an ace web programmer, why can’t a liberal arts
> graduate?

Most 10-year-olds can't become ace web programmers (well, given an infinite
time horizon, maybe they can, but then they aren't 10-year-olds anymore.)

For, largely completely different reasons, most liberal arts graduates
probably can't either.

Of course, some can (I think I'm a pretty decent programmer, and my degree is
a BA in Political Science. Then again, I was a programming long before I got
that degree -- I might have even been a 10-year-old web programmer, if not
necessarily an ace one, if the web existed when I was 10.)

~~~
byoung2
_I think I 'm a pretty decent programmer, and my degree is a BA in Political
Science. Then again, I was a programming long before I got that degree_

I have a BA in English, but I've been programming since I was 7, starting with
BASIC, then on my TI-82 in junior high, C in high school, Perl, PHP and
Javascript in college. I work full time as a software engineer now, and I make
a good living doing it.

~~~
wernercd
On the same token, you could build cars your whole life... get a liberal arts
degree... then say all LA's can easily become mechanics.

After all, what's easy for you is easy for everyone right?

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HamSession
The biggest issue with the article is

"Last March, he enrolled in App Academy, a 12-week web development program
with locations in San Francisco and New York, and found a job coding within
three weeks of interviewing. In his new position as a web application engineer
at Yola, a San Francisco-based website building company, Morrison says he
earns considerably more than what he had made doing administrative work."

Same thing was happening before the crash of 2000, people would take a month
long course and then get jobs based on that course. I ask everyone what is
driving up the valuations, and to look critically into the future. As soon as
the companies that have the large valuations (Twitter,Facebook,etc.) start to
post negative growth you will see an exodus.

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robgering
I did this. My undergraduate degrees are in the humanities. I started
programming in my late twenties. I also have kids. For anyone in the same spot
-- it's not impossible, you'll just have to consistently put in hours to
learn, and be open to criticism when you make the inevitable mistakes. That's
probably true for most career paths.

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bsirkia
A more accurate title would be "Studied Humanities, Will Code". I have a
liberal arts degree from Middlebury College where I studied Computer Science,
so it shouldn't be too surprising that I will code (and do code full-time
professionally).

~~~
laxatives
Similarly, all the CS grads from Berkeley have BA's with lots of general
education breadth requirements (EECS students have BS's).

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
If I could afford to continue and get a 4 year CS degree, I'd prefer myself to
get a BA, or get a CS degree at a non engineering school.

~~~
noname123
At most LACs, you can't get a BS degree. With that being side, my experience
with liberal arts CS education (at Wesleyan) is ironically that it was too
much CS because "liberal arts is suppose to be self-enrichment and theory". We
went into a lot of theory and math (e.g., functional language, language
design, automata, algorithm proof of correctness) and even the "practicum"
courses was fairly academic (information theory analysis on genomic data,
cryptography) and not "web development" or "J2EE".

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
That goes back to the perpetual debate between applied and theory classes. I'm
not sure if it has to do with LACs vs research universities or whatnot.

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ForHackernews
This is a real pet peeve of mine, but "Liberal Arts" is not synonymous with
"Humanities": [http://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/liberal%20arts](http://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/liberal%20arts)

> College or university curriculum aimed at imparting general knowledge and
> developing general intellectual capacities, in contrast to a professional,
> vocational, or technical curriculum. ... In modern colleges and
> universities, the liberal arts include the study of literature, languages,
> philosophy, history, mathematics, and science.

Computer science (as distinct from "programming" or "software engineering")
_is_ a liberal art! As are pure mathematics, and natural sciences like
physics, chemistry, or biology.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Computer science (as distinct from "programming" or "software engineering")
> is a liberal art!

Arguably, but a BS in Computer Science isn't a Liberal Arts degree, its a
science degree that is named that to distinguish it from a Liberal Arts degree
(BA, the "Arts" refers to Liberal Arts.)

Of course, if you have a BA in Computer Science, that _is_ a Liberal Arts
degree.

~~~
ForHackernews
I would argue that in most cases, the BA/BS distinction is a meaningless
artifact of what credential your university happens to offer.

For example, MIT only awards BS degrees to undergrads, so you could major in
French Studies or history and get a BS:
[http://mitadmissions.org/discover/majors](http://mitadmissions.org/discover/majors)

In contrast, a school like Amherst only awards BA degrees, so you'd wind up
with a BA in physics, chem or computer science:
[https://www.amherst.edu/academiclife/departments](https://www.amherst.edu/academiclife/departments)

~~~
dragonwriter
I think in most cases BA vs. BS is meaningful -- schools that offer only BS
degrees have different kinds of core programs than schools that offer only BA
degrees, and there are plenty of schools that offer both kinds of degrees,
sometimes _in the same major field of study_.

~~~
ForHackernews
I guess if a single school offers both degrees in the same field, with
different requirements, that would be a meaningful distinction.

However, in my experience, it will still be a distinction without a
difference, since very few employers would understand or care about it.

~~~
dragonwriter
> However, in my experience, it will still be a distinction without a
> difference, since very few employers would understand or care about it.

This presumes that the _only_ meaningful effect of a college education is a
vocational certification that is presented to employers.

~~~
ForHackernews
If we assume the primary goal of a college education is developing the ability
to think abstractly and reason meaningfully about the subject at hand, then
the BA/BS distinction becomes even less consequential.

If we presume the BA student has taken a few more electives in outside areas,
and the BS student has taken a few more major-focus classes and perhaps more
quantitative classes, it's hard for me to see that choice having a serious
impact on a student's intellectual development.

At most, it's a signal about the type of person that student was when they
choose their degree.

~~~
dragonwriter
> If we assume the primary goal of a college education is developing the
> ability to think abstractly and reason meaningfully about the subject at
> hand, then the BA/BS distinction becomes even less consequential.

What if we assume that the primary goal of a _liberal arts_ undergraduate
degree (BA) is that, and the primary goal of other types of undergraduate
degrees (BS, BFA, BSL, etc.) differs for each?

------
Forplax
Do we really have 10-year-old "ace web programmers" running around?

~~~
gamegoblin
Not 10 year old ace web programmers, but I have a friend who started coding
PHP at age 10 and was doing serious freelance work (making as much as any
other seasoned PHP dev) in high school.

Definitely not the same, but getting started at 10 and being proficient at 14
isn't unheard of.

------
bitwize
Hum majors who take up coding are more than welcome to try,but they should be
warned: programming is hard. It's easier than multivariable calculus, but
there there ARE right and wrong answers, and you WILL come a point when you'll
hit a wall and be frustrated, and you need to have the perseverance to get
through those points. If this is to be your career you need to commit to a
virtual lifetime of learning and growing.

Also, start with Python. I know some of you think it's neat to jump right in
with JavaScript and make cool animations and dynamic web pages, but -- I'm
from the future. You should start with Python.

~~~
tekalon
I cam from History to IT. I can agree with this and still struggle with it at
times.

~~~
bitwize
Well, really, the only difference between people like me, who have been doing
this for most of our natural lives, and people like you is that we've run into
a bunch more walls and now act like it's no big d. But the initial frustration
as a n00b can be killer.

------
quomopete
> If a 10-year-old can become an ace web programmer, why can’t a liberal arts
> graduate?

Brain plasticity. Next.

~~~
nirnira
I've never found these "brain plasticity" arguments very compelling. I had no
motivation or context for learning when I was young (0-20) and while I might
have done well in school tests and read a lot of books, I don't think I really
absorbed anything in any depth, or thought in any particularly interesting or
challenging ways - I certainly never achieved anything which would have
required so much willpower and focus as learning to program modern computers.

And now that I am older (mid-20s) and my brain is supposedly less plastic, but
I have motivation, context and determination in abundance, I feel like I am
really learning and developing for the first time in my life.

~~~
dragonwriter
The fact that it is possible for a motivated 25-year-old to be better at
learning something than the same person as an unmotivated 10-year-old does not
refute the fact that human brain development is such that certain forms of
learning are _much_ easier at 10 than at 25.

~~~
nirnira
Neuroplasticity primarily relates to the evolved ability of young children to
rapidly, _effortlessly_ acquire basic, evolutionarily critical behaviours -
language systems and other core social behaviour necessary for tight social
integration (and later various more complex but still critical secondary
social behaviours) in a small hunter gatherer pack essentially - all picked up
subconsciously from the social environment.

The important difference is that all of this acquisition is a result of tens
of thousands of years of consistent natural selection. It's hard-wired because
humans have needed these things, and children have needed them as fast as
possible, for a long long time.

The things humans attempt to learn in modern times however (non-native
languages, formal systems of logic, the ability to argue and reason in complex
fashions, the ability to program complex systems) are completely
evolutionarily unprecedented, and the result is clear: children are not able
to acquire these behaviours effortlessly. They don't just rub off. Instead
they (generally) require focussed, extensive supervision and tuition from
humans that have already put in the hard work of mastering them.

So the relevance of neuroplasticity still seems small to me.

~~~
dragonwriter
> The things humans attempt to learn in modern times however (non-native
> languages, formal systems of logic, the ability to argue and reason in
> complex fashions, the ability to program complex systems) are completely
> evolutionarily unprecedented, and the result is clear: children are not able
> to acquire these behaviours effortlessly.

At least in the case of non-native languages, while it may not be
"effortless", every study I've seen has indicated that it is _much_ easier for
children to learn them.

------
ZanyProgrammer
I find the alternate methods people use to become programmers fascinating
(alternate as in "didn't graduate with a CS degree from a 4 year school when
21). I did something different than this article suggested-I used the Post
9/11 GI Bill to take almost every single CS course at my local community
college.

~~~
mikepilla
Sounds like you made good use of the GI Bill. But were the classes necessary
in helping you land the first programming gig?

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
I think so. I went to a rather large community college, and was able to get a
wide diversity of coursework. Having all that exposure certainly helped, as
well as a lot of programming on my own-having a repository of (what are now
rather embarrassing to look at!) code samples I worked on in my spare time
also helped. Having a paper credential (in this case an AA) also helps a lot.

------
ben_mcmahen
I wrote a short essay on my experience with transitioning from the humanities
to web design and development. In short, I think it can be done... and that
there are even certain advantages and unique skills that a liberal arts degree
provides... but ultimately it comes down to some innate skills combined with
lots of hard work. Here is my full essay for anyone interested:
[https://medium.com/this-happened-to-me/d609c1770dd4](https://medium.com/this-
happened-to-me/d609c1770dd4)

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siliconc0w
Went with a BA in politics since young arrogant me got tired of the CS
curriculum (why do I need to learn java? I can already make anything in PHP!)
and politics was more interesting (and better demographics honestly).

So I've brushed up on my CS via online courses and enjoy a more
educated/enlightened apathy toward modern politics.

------
georgiecasey
> Friedman says she doesn’t regret majoring in English. She says her
> communication skills help her explain work to less technical colleagues.

I wouldn't really agree with that, but whatever you need to justify your
student debts.

~~~
enraged_camel
You wouldn't really agree with what? That her English degree helps her
communicate better, or that English degrees in general help people communicate
better?

Oh, wait. You don't have an English degree, do you?

------
jaryd
As an additional data point, I was into systems/programming as a kid and so
when I went to college I studied English hoping it would make me a more
rounded person.

I currently do sysops professionally.

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stackcollision
The problem with this title is that in the reference, "Have Spacesuit, Will
Travel", the character actually has something that's relevant to his travels.

~~~
gruseom
Programming is writing.

~~~
norswap
Despite the flurry of Stunk&White analogies, I actually found the two
activities to be quite distinct. I think in part because language is much more
general (you could say "lose") and because programming exhibit concepts that
are nowhere to be found in language (even at the "language" level, programming
idioms have little to do with actual idioms).

~~~
nimblegorilla
Good developers also tend to have good communication skills (such as writing).
There isn't a 1-to-1 mapping, but things like Strunk&White can give a lot of
insight applicable to developers. One example is Strunk&White's idea of a
style guide, a concept that all multi-developer software projects should
implement to some degree.

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nirnira
I'm interested to see, as better systems for teaching coding develop,
popularity and awareness of its accessibility builds, it begins to go
mainstream, and the marketplace becomes more competitive and wages decline,
is, will the oldguard agitate for economic protection?

Edit: From the sounds of things, it's going to be very interesting:

 _Dan Melton, deputy chief technology officer at Granicus, a San Francisco-
based startup that puts government data in the cloud, has hired two students
with humanities backgrounds from App Academy. He said he looks for those
students because they’re able to work better with other programmers and
clients and understand the larger meaning of the work.

"We already have a lot of software whiz kids," Melton said. "We like to hire
people who are interested in public affairs and civic engagement."_

Sounds like it's going to be quite the culture change.

