
Vaping Is big tobacco’s bait and switch - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/opinion/editorials/vaping-ecigarettes-nicotine-safe.html
======
satori99
All advertising of tobacco products has been banned outright for some time in
my country, Australia.

Even cigarette packets on a shelf behind a shopkeeper must not be identifiable
in any way, and be behind a closed door. And all brands look exactly the same
except for small lettering of the product's name (in the same font for
everyone).

They all look like this;

[https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/29360d2ce7cffa390ad072b2...](https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/29360d2ce7cffa390ad072b2c248cb14?width=650)

Just grey packets with a confronting image of disease.

But it's the cost that has had the most dramatic effect on smoking rates.
Particularly with younger people. A single packet of 25 cigarettes costs
something like $35-$40 (@$25US) in Australia now. Teenagers just cant afford
to start smoking anymore.

[https://www.cancercouncil.com.au/wp-
content/uploads/2013/09/...](https://www.cancercouncil.com.au/wp-
content/uploads/2013/09/teenage-smoking-1984-2008-LIGHT.png)

~~~
frosted-flakes
How common are contraband cigarettes, or roll-your-owns? I know that here in
Canada, many people get their cigarettes by the carton from the nearest native
reservation, who can produce them for their own use or are exempt from the
rules (I don't know which).

~~~
satori99
All tobacco sales are heavily regulated and taxed. The taxation amount
increases each year until 2030 (i think).

It used to be possible to buy them duty-free if you were traveling
internationally, but that loophole was closed too. An individual can only
bring a max. of 200 individual cigarettes, into the country now without paying
the Australian taxes.

I was a smoker, and I looked into roll-your-owns as an option to save on the
rising costs, but it was a negligible difference. Gram for gram it was a tiny
difference between purchasing loose pouch tobacco and pre-made cigarettes.

It is also illegal for anyone to cultivate it in any amount without a
government license, and the penalties are very harsh.

There is apparently a black-market for unprocessed tobacco (known colloquially
as chop-chop) but I haven't ever come across it. It is much easier to buy
weed, which is still outright illegal here.

[https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/pae75k/we-asked-a-
tobacco...](https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/pae75k/we-asked-a-tobacco-
farmer-if-growing-your-own-chop-chop-is-worth-it)

For some idea of the crazy high prices;
[https://www.cigars.com.au/products/cigarettes](https://www.cigars.com.au/products/cigarettes)

~~~
xxpor
The UK cigs seem very reasonable, even low. $10.75 AUD is $7.57 USD, which
while not as low as you'll find in the south for example, but for cigs in
major cities on the coasts these days it's not crazy.

~~~
DanBC
Do they contain any actual tobacco or are they "herbal"?

------
fdsa_7767483
Personal experience:

1\. Smoked in college in earnest.

2\. Started quitting after college with great difficulty.

3\. Failed to quit for more than ~6 months at a go for a decade and half.

4\. Started smoking e-cigs / vape last year (the liquid kind).

5\. Quit vaping AND smoking months ago WITHOUT EVEN TRYING.

There was a pleasure loop hard-wired in my brain from smoking that I could
ignore but would always win if 1) I was exceptionally stressed out or 2) I was
drunk.

Without any difficulty whatsoever and without a conscious effort to do so,
vaping somehow de-programmed that loop. My desire to smoke anything just
disappeared. Stress and alcohol cause zero cravings now.

Further:

1\. I don't recommend smoking. Risks far outweigh the benefits.

2\. I don't recommend vaping unless you already smoke cigarettes and want to
quit.

3\. YMMV.

~~~
newen
Juuls have been great for me. Been smoking a pack every 2-3 days for the last
2 years. I tried vaping but it gave me a headache for whatever reason. Tried
juul recently and I went without smoking for a few weeks. Improved my
breathing a whole lot. Unfortunately I am using both juul and cigarettes now,
but I am smoking a pack every two weeks or so since I am okay going days
without smoking, which is a big improvement.

~~~
stevewillows
I vaped and smoked for six months. Its not a race or competition -- just so
long as your trajectory is toward quitting tobacco, you're succeeding.

Keep up the pace!

------
dade_
So are newspaper headlines. Big tobacco didn't create e-cigs and in my
experience quitting e-cigs was easy, but cigarettes nearly impossible. Maybe
it was all about the additives, but I guess no one is sure yet:
[https://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/opinions_l...](https://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/opinions_layman/tobacco/en/index.htm#5)

Also, if e-cigs turn out to be safe, or can be made safe, what is the problem?
Just a bunch of puritan's with their underwear in a knot.

~~~
sosilkj
"if e-cigs turn out to be safe, or can be made safe, what is the problem?"

This is weasle-wording.

"Just a bunch of puritan's with their underwear in a knot."

Reframing the debate in moralistic terms is not useful here. It's a public
health issue, plain and simple. If there is research that you are privy to
that shows nicotine to be harmless, please share it with us; don't keep it to
yourself.

~~~
cf498
>Reframing the debate in moralistic terms is not useful here. It's a public
health issue, plain and simple.

Of course it is a moral debate. Sure its not healthy, but shouldnt people be
allowed to use it regardless if they decide to do so? It only becomes a public
health issue once people who dont smoke are effected, which is why we got bans
to smoke in certain places and not a ban on smoking in general.

~~~
hu3
1) In countries with public heath system, people who don't smoke are also
affected when the government has to subside treatment for smoking related
diseases.

2) Smoking impacts on individual productivity which directly impacts on
economy:

> Current smokers missed more days of work and experienced more unproductive
> time at work compared with former smokers and nonsmokers. The average annual
> cost for lost productivity for nonsmokers was 2623 dollars/year compared
> with 3246 dollars/year for former smokers and 4430 dollars/year for current
> smokers. More than half the costs were due to unproductive time at work.
> [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17033509](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17033509)

3) Tobacco smoking is the cause of many preventable diseases and premature
deaths in the UK and around the world. It poses enormous health- and non-
health-related costs to the affected individuals, employers, and the society
at large. The World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that, globally,
smoking causes over US$500 billion in economic damage each year:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4502793/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4502793/)

Dismissing discussions about impacts of smoking as moralistic is borderline
disingenuous in face of the numerous studies freely available on the internet.

~~~
cf498
You dont get what I said. I said, despite the effects on health. I am not
arguing that smoking is not unhealthy. Its not an either or question between
public health issue and moral question. Smoking is bad for you. It will likely
kill you. And so are heroin crack and fast food. If it was only a matter of
public health all would be banned. They are all unhealthy and cost the
healthcare system massively. The decision that we still tolerate some and dont
tolerate others is a moralistic one.

~~~
hu3
I misinterpreted your comment. Apologies for my disproportional rude tone.

I'm all for freedom of choice as long as it doesn't impact the collective. And
To add to your point, imagine if sugar-rich and fast-food packagings were
photos of sickly-looking obese people and insulin injections. Also imagine if
fast-food was prohibited from being advertised. That's what some govs do with
tobacco. As you said, allowing one but no the other is indeed a moral debate.

------
cm2012
Vaping has been pretty well studied (except for the flavorings). Nicotine is
very addictive but not very damaging on its own. From what I've read, vaping
is probably a better habit than, say, eating lots of sugary food. I say this
as someone who's never vaped and likes too much sugary food.

~~~
who_is_firing
This is incorrect. E cigarettes are still in a very early stage of research.
My partner works at one of the leading institutes in tobacco research and they
are literally just kicking off most of their research on e-cigs. Most of the
researchers (including one of the world experts on tobacco research) has a gut
feeling that the health effects will be in the same magnitude as cigarettes.
Early research confirms this, but again it's still a gut opinion. Literally
the first major study on e-cigs affect on heart disease was released last year
(and it does not look good):
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190307103111.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190307103111.htm)

I don't believe any e-cigarette research institute would agree with either of
the claims that: 1) vaping is well studied. It is about 10-20 years from being
well studied as most of the major research institutes are just starting (or
are in grant application stage). 2) vaping is less harmful than the health
effects of a high sugar diet (not to discount that a high sugar is very bad)

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Public Health England published a review of evidence of e-cigs. They concluded
e-cigs are about 95% safer than tobacco. So being the same magnitude as
cigarettes seems an absurd claim, on the strength of all studies so far,
anecdotally too.

[https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-
independent...](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-independent-
expert-e-cigarettes-evidence-review)

~~~
mikekchar
Because a statement like "e-cigs are about 95% safer than tobacco" seems
meaningless to me without any scale to reference it to, I dug out the paper
that they based their estimate on [1] (which I got from [2]).

I'm just going to say that this looks like the least rigorous assessment that
I've ever seen. As far as I can tell, they went to a conference and over a 2
day period collectively came up with a list of "evaluation criteria" which is
not at all limited to health. It includes (among other things) crime,
environmental damage, family adversities, economic cost, community,etc, etc).

Then they scored each product against each criteria on a 100 point scale. This
is not an evidenced based approach. It was a bunch of people sitting in a room
arguing with each other how they _think_ it should be scored.

Then they weighted the results. Finally they gave each a final score of "harm"
base on a 100 point scale. Cigarettes ranked at 100. Pipe smoking ranked at 21
(nearly 5x "safer" than cigarettes!) ENDS ranked about 4 (based on what I can
guess from the graph). There's your "at least 95% 'safer'" tag line.

Oh and the committee included a consultant working with companies on tobacco
dependence, another consultant working with smoking cessation products, and
another consultant working for an e-sig distributor. Several of the committee
received grants from the nicotine industry.

[1] -
[https://www.karger.com/article/FullText/360220](https://www.karger.com/article/FullText/360220)
[2] -
[https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...](https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/456704/McNeill-
Hajek_report_authors_note_on_evidence_for_95_estimate.pdf)

------
systematical
I was able to successfully quit cigarettes (for a year) by quitting drinking
and switching to the vape. I reduced the nicotine from 12mg to 1.5mg over the
course of three months. One day I realized I hadn't touched my vape all
day...then I started drinking again after a year. I was bored. Now I smoke
cigarettes when I drink and vape other days. It sucks, alcohol and stress is
my biggest trigger for smoking cigarettes. When I do drink, I tear through the
pack pretty quick too. Basically turn into a chain smoker.

What I can say about vaping is, my endurance and performance in gym/sports is
noticeable improved after 3 days of vaping instead of smoking. I can breath
deep and feel better. That's the only proof I need until a study tells me
otherwise. I would love to quit everything, but I do enjoy a drink.

Does this story sound similar to anyone who successfully quit? Send advice if
so.

~~~
phil248
You asked for advice and mine is that nicotine is your addiction, with a lot
of other components swirling around it, and you should decide if you want to
quit nicotine or not. Patches, gums and vaporizers are just new and fancy ways
to feed your body the ridiculously addictive nicotine it craves.

I also suggest reading "The Easy Way to Quit Smoking". If nothing else it's
very encouraging. It might also help you realize that nicotine and alcohol
have no special relationship. Not any more than cigarettes and food or
cigarettes and sex. When you are a nicotine addict, _everything_ becomes a
trigger for your addiction. Trying to differentiate is just playing into the
addiction and giving it special powers.

~~~
wahern
> Tobacco may well be as addictive as heroin, crack, alcohol, and Cherry
> Garcia combined into one giant crazy sundae. But as laboratory scientists
> know, getting mice or other animals hooked on nicotine all by its lonesome
> is dauntingly difficult. As a 2007 paper in the journal Neuropharmacology
> put it, “Tobacco use has one of the highest rates of addiction of any abused
> drug. Paradoxically, in animal models, nicotine appears to be a weak
> reinforcer.”

> That same study, like many others, found that other ingredients in tobacco
> smoke are necessary to amp up nicotine’s addictiveness. Those other chemical
> ingredients things like acetaldehyde, anabasine, nornicotine, anatabine,
> cotinine, and myosmine—help to keep people hooked on tobacco. On its own,
> nicotine isn’t enough.

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-
nicotine-p...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-
patch-make-you-smarter-excerpt/)

There are other sources and studies I'm too lazy to look up, but AFAIU
nicotine is a powerful cognitive enhancer that makes activities easier to
perform and more rewarding (including, perhaps, the metabolization of other
substances), and it's _this_ experience boost that may be what addicts people.
In any event, it's now understood--relatively uncontroversially--that this is
why many people with certain cognitive deficits (ADHD, schizophrenia,
depression, etc) self-medicate with nicotine, though it works to elevate
cognitive performance even for people without deficits.

~~~
phil248
Humans generally move easily from one nicotine delivery system to another but
fail miserably when trying to quit nicotine all together.

It's also very important to understand that nicotine, like most addictive
chemicals, impacts different people in different ways. Some people have no
problem smoking a few cigarettes a month for years bon end without every
developing an addiction.

------
qwerty456127
Whatever, vaping is still better than cigs - it doesn't load your lungs with
tar and doesn't make you stink nasty. If you don't smoke - don't start (or
maybe do if you struggle from ADHD and can't get any better treatment), if you
do and can't or don't want to quit - switching to vaping is a great idea.

~~~
systematical
I notice a weird tar looking substance in my vape chamber sometimes. I use a
70/30 VG/PG. Not sure what it is, but makes me question things...

~~~
ce4
It's neither the nicotine nor the pg/vg. What flavour do you vape? A sweet
one? You could check without flavour or methanol-only to find out.

------
llamataboot
It seems fairly obvious and in line with most research that has come out that
#1) vaping is far less dangerous than smoking cigarettes, #2) vaping is not
harmless and the true extent of the risks probably won't be known for a
generation because there are just no longitudinal studies possible yet, #3)
vaping is a great alternative to smoking cigarettes in terms of harm reduction
- both in terms of effects on the vaper and effects on bystanders (not to
mention it doesn't cause entire rooms and all things in them to stink) #4) The
extent that vaping will lead to more nicotine addicts later becoming cigarette
smokers is unknown, but seems anecdotally unlikely but worth keeping an eye on
(ie; someone that never would have started smoking starts vaping because it is
less harmful but then eventually becomes a cigarette addict) #5) Prohibition
doesn't in general work with any substance and there is absolutely no moral
justification for not making safer ways of delivering substances available
while still being open-eyed about their possible risks

Personal bias - smoked heavily starting at age 13/14 until my 30s. Switched to
vaping heavily and saw marked improvements in my health. Eventually weaned
down nicotine levels while vaping over the course of many months. Quit vaping
with some difficulty, but not the difficulty level of quitting cigarettes. Now
don't use nicotine at all, but will never be able to use it in moderation.

------
insanity321
I feel like people often come at this topic from an individualistic
perspective that ignores what's really going on. People see a new product has
appeared and immediately accept it as a new fact of their environment and then
debate whether they should be free to use it or not. This discussion is
entirely absent of why this thing has appeared and why not some other thing.

The reason it has appeared is because it is profitable. It is profitable
because it is addictive. So some company or companies begins applying a
population level medical experiment, introducing an addictive substance with
only extremely ephemeral benefits and potentially serious health consequences.
Intensifying this problem, the companies proceed to target children, in order
to attempt to create lifelong money drips based on a physiological addition.
The question is why is this a legitimate activity?

While you personally may have some intelligence and ability to not waste your
health and money on this product, simply placing it in accessible areas,
advertising it and making it appealing, means that less informed or more risk
taking members of the population will basically trip into a bear trap and feel
like they're making an affirmative decision about their life because it feels
good for a few moments at a time.

This is insanity. Why do we allow known bad actors to manipulate and poison
the public?

EDIT: I should clarify that I don't have a problem with individuals growing
and making this stuff themselves, just with the license we give to apply these
medical experiments at a population level by entities that care nothing about
the people they serve.

~~~
wutbrodo
> introducing an addictive substance with only extremely ephemeral benefits
> and potentially serious health consequences

This seems like a description of any method of nicotine use, and you're about
3500 years too late for that. I don't see how it's accurate to describe e-cigs
advent as the introduction of a new addictive substance: it seems to me to
largely be the introduction of a new (far safer) method of delivery for an
existing addictive substance.

The complaint about e-cigarettes seems to me to be a complaint about the ease
for teens of hiding their usage, relative to stinky cigarettes.

~~~
insanity321
To be clear, the use of tobacco has been an element of human culture (broadly
construed, not all cultures) for millennia, on that we agree. I also do not
have a problem with people growing it for small scale use. I do have a problem
with the perverse incentives of industry to scale and market the product far
beyond whatever niche it might otherwise occupy in human society. Furthermore,
I object to the inflation of market share by targeting children.

I thought about this a bit overnight and I think if we wanted to use this
technology in a way to reduce harm and improve human health, we would offer it
mainly through doctors' offices. While it would reduce reach among current
smokers, it would also be fairly specific to that population sans some small
scale cheating. This would prevent uptake by children and non-users. Instead,
we take the opposite approach of selling it for profit and expand the market
as far as possible. This is a gross behavior that does not care for the value
of human life and health and we allow it.

------
restalis
The new tactic is to push smoking practice in movie scenes. Though (I don't
know for a fact but I presume that) smoking went naturally in movies before,
when the actors were actual smokers and choose to have a cigarette in some
movie scene, now we have smoking (simulation) performed by non-smoking actors!
Smoking in manga animations is yet another thing I don't remember seeing in
'90s.

~~~
mruts
A new tactic? People have been smoking cigarettes in movies forever, for a
couple reasons.

1) Stylistically, it looks cool and makes great shots. The light going through
the smoke, the burning sound of the inhale.

2) It tells us something about the character and their value systems and their
psychological state. Maybe they have a devil-may-care attitude, maybe they are
under distress.

3) It gives an excuse for characters to stand and talk. It also is an excuse
for a character to be alone is silent contemplation while also doing something
the audience can see (smoking). Without cigarettes, both of this situations
feel more contrived and less natural.

------
usx
Personal experience:

\- Started smoking as a young teenager (13) \- Quickly turned into a pack a
day smoker (16) \- Went up to two packs a day (twenties) \- Spent a year off
and on cigarettes using a vape pen \- Decided to completely switch to vaping

It's been 2 months since I've smoked (besides little mishaps at parties).

I've spent the most of the time coughing up all the shit my lungs have been
accumulating since a child. I can breath a lot better now, suffer no
lung/chest pains (daily before I quit cigarettes).

I'm a happy vaper and will continue to vape for now. I am 100% aware that it
may not be risk-free, but I feel an enormous difference between smoking and
vaping. I had tried numerous things before vaping (patches are pointless,
nicotine gum horrible, champix made me extremely depressed/suicidal), and am
grateful e-cigarettes are a thing.

------
chroma
I've seen this opinion dozens of times and the best response is a Slate Star
Codex post from 2013[1]:

> The worst are the people – one of whom has so far appeared in every article
> I have read on the subject – who say that we should be careful because “Big
> Tobacco” is pushing them as a “solution” to the problem of declining
> cigarette sales. First of all this is just factually wrong; most
> e-cigarettes are made by alternative companies in direct competition with
> Big Tobacco. Second, if your reasoning strategy is identifying the Evil
> People and then minimizing their utility, you probably shouldn’t be making
> public policy.

> ...if a public e-cigarette ban reduces the number of smokers who switch to
> e-cigarettes by 2%, you’ve just killed an extra 9000 people per year – about
> three 9-11 attacks, or twice the number of US soldiers who died in the Iraq
> War.

As soon as you do the math, it's clear that allowing vaping is extremely good
for public health. Those opposed to it demonstrate their innumeracy and
puritanism.

1\. [https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/28/thank-you-for-doing-
so...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/28/thank-you-for-doing-something-
ambiguously-between-smoking-and-not-smoking/)

~~~
i_am_proteus
Yes, and if 2% of Americans _who would not have ever smoked_ start vaping and
get addicted to nicotine, and 2% of those people subsequently develop a
cigarette habit...

My concern is not that e-cigs are dangerous (they might be, but they're very
probably not more dangerous than actual tobacco), but that e-cigs' perceived
safety might eventually get people, a lot of them, to start actually smoking.

Personal anecdote: I'm an ex-smoker. I love that e-cigs are helping smokers
quit, but I don't like that e-cigs are getting non-smokers addicted to
nicotine.

I'm not enthusiastic about banning things in general, and e-cigs are no
different. But as someone who was dependent on nicotine for years, I hope The
Public is wary: nicotine goes from being your lover to being your boss very
very quickly. And once it's your boss, all it does is make you feel terrible
if you aren't consuming nicotine.

If you have a nicotine habit: try to kick it. Life's great on the other side.

If you don't have a nicotine habit: life's great on the side you're already
on.

~~~
darpa_escapee
> _My concern is not that e-cigs are dangerous (they might be, but they 're
> very probably not more dangerous than actual tobacco), but that e-cigs'
> perceived safety might eventually get people, a lot of them, to start
> actually smoking._

If cigarettes are cheaper, some people who use vapes exclusively will smoke
cigarettes in order to get their nicotine fix. Addiction doesn't care about
price or which delivery method is healthier.

If cigarettes are more accessible, as in if you're out and your vape's battery
is dies and/or it breaks and you need your fix, some people who use vapes
exclusively will smoke cigarettes in order to get their nicotine fix.
Addiction doesn't care about where you are or if getting your fix is
inconvenient.

You can draw similarities to the opioid epidemic: if you give 'safer'
prescription opioids out like candy, and then take them away, some people who
used prescription opioids exclusively will move to cheaper and more accessible
heroin.

------
01100011
FWIW, I've tried vaping, gums and nicotine pouches. They all make me sick,
unless I drop the dose to a level that is so miniscule that I can't feel it.
Real tobacco, on the other hand, calms me down and feels great as long as I
watch the dose(say, 1/2 cigarette, but usually pipe tobacco). I don't use
tobacco very often, and I've never had a problem quitting(23andme confirms I
have low nicotine addiction risk). Curious if anyone else has noticed this
with nicotine products? I know there is a difference in pure nicotine freebase
vs salt form, but I feel like it's more than that. There's something else in
tobacco that makes it work for me.

~~~
mruts
There's MAOIs in tobacco that are not present in gum or e-cigs. MAOIs change
the psychoactive effects of nicotine. There is also some evidence that MAOIs
significantly increase the addiction potential of nicotine.

A little off topic, but I find that cigarettes really work for me as a
software developer. Program for a couple hours, and then smoke a cigarette,
rinse and repeat. More often than not, I catch bugs in my programs while
smoking, not while at the computer. It significantly improves my cognition
while also inducing a calm and reflective state. Part of this is probably from
being alone and stepping away, but the tobacco definitely does have a strong
effect separate of this.

------
monkeypizza
Gwern has a discussion of Nicotine, and basically concludes it's safe:

[https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine](https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine)

~~~
elp
How is someone who claims to be known for their writings on dark markets and
bitcoins supposed to be an expert on smoking? Meanwhile, actual scientists and
oncology doctors have concluded that for nicotine on its own (not smoking)
([https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/))
"There is an increased risk of cardiovascular, respiratory, gastrointestinal
disorders. There is decreased immune response and it also poses ill impacts on
the reproductive health. It affects the cell proliferation, oxidative stress,
apoptosis, DNA mutation by various mechanisms which leads to cancer. It also
affects the tumor proliferation and metastasis and causes resistance to chemo
and radio therapeutic agents."

~~~
wutbrodo
> How is someone who claims to be known for their writings on dark markets and
> bitcoins supposed to be an expert on smoking?

This is a non-sequitur in context: Gwern's whole thing is trying to take a
from-scratch look at the literature instead of relying on the standard appeal-
to-authority arguments that sometimes lead to flawed conclusions due to things
like institutional incentive structures. That is to say, if you're the kind of
person who reads thing blindly based on whether the author is an expert or not
instead of taking advantage of the fact that he shows his work to assess the
quality of his analysis, then gwern's writings probably aren't for you. (FWIW,
you should probably be doing this to some degree even when reading the
recommendations of those designated experts)

Don't get me wrong, there's obvious ways for "ignore the experts and read the
literature from scratch" to lead to flawed conclusions, but it's just a
different type of analysis.

------
leoh
There is even some evidence that monoamine oxidase inhibitors in cigarettes,
rather than nicotine, may be the causative agent of addiction in cigarettes.

~~~
013a
Juuls can be relatively hard for long-time users (6+ months) just because
they're so strong (50mg/ml, though at low output). But, you don't have to go
cold turkey, as they now do 30mg/ml pods, and there's always normal vapes. I'd
imagine in any case its not nearly as hard as normal cigarettes, though I
wouldn't know (never smoked).

While they've somehow gotten the stigma of being flashy and hip, they're very
much designed for a specific purpose: getting people off cigarettes. In doing
so: they're expensive, harsh, and have poor flavor options.

I legitimately can't understand why high schoolers would be attracted to them
when normal vapes are (1) substantially cheaper, (2) so much more flavorful,
and (3) available on a wide variety of websites that do zero age verification.
I mean, kids aren't smart, but its almost so unbelievable that, dare I say,
the media is making broad generalizations and Juul is just taking the brunt of
their ire.

------
gHosts
> Health officials know next to nothing about the flavorings or about other
> chemicals generated by the heating of e-liquids.

Even the officials knew anything about the flavourings today, they will spin
another five flavours by tomorrow.

And even if knew everything about a flavour.... what's in the mass produced /
delivered to consumer flavouring will not remain the same day on day.

This whole thing makes my spidey sense tingle.

------
GeneticGenesis
It's interesting that no-one mentioned Formula 1 in here.

F1 was one of the biggest industries to embrace tobacco advertising, and
indeed was exempt from several tobacco advertising laws in the UK. The Ferrari
F1 team still takes sponsorship from Philip Morris International (the company
that owns Marlboro), and indeed at the start of this year, the Ferrari team
was named "Mission Winnow Ferrari". Mission Winnow is Philip Morris' project
looking for Tobacco alternatives. Read: Vaping.

As @satori99 mentioned however, Australia has very strong advertising laws
when it comes to tobacco, so as the first race is in a few weeks, the Mission
Winnow branding was removed from the Ferrari as it was revealed that the
Australian authorities had launched an investigation:
[https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/141908/ferrari-removes-
mis...](https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/141908/ferrari-removes-mission-
winnow-logo-for-australia)

------
RickJWagner
I was stunned when people actually began 'Vaping'. I thought (and still think)
it doesn't have the basic 'cool factor' that a lit cigarette has. (Why I think
that's cool is something I probably should think about. It doesn't seem to be
a naturally generated thought, but rather one that's been placed there through
years of media influence.)

I imagine there's some deep social need that's being met by the e-cigs.

~~~
disgruntledphd2
It is probably just the addiction. Nicotine is super-addictive.

------
newsgremlin
Vaping itself is not the issue, it is better than combusting the product and
inhaling the result into your lungs, it's the next step to quitting for
addicts. The numerous e-liquid products and vaping devices where quality may
vary is where the focus of public attention needs to be on. The additives and
potency of e-liquids needs to be advertised clearly and regulated so we can
properly see the effects.

------
syntaxing
Banning vaping outright seems ridiculous but there need to be more aggressive
policies and enforcement on the sale to children. The FDA did a study and I
remember the numbers being staggering (2/3 teens I think) have vaped before. A
high number of people using addictive substance before 19 is a recipe for
disaster regardless of the compound since lifetime addiction rates soar at
that age.

------
rawmodz
I'm one the road in Albuquerque and hearing commercials on the radio trying to
convert older smokers to vaping. specifically it is the juul brand. the pitch
is that smoking is no longer acceptable so why not vape instead? at the very
end of the ad they warn that juul products contain nicotine...... hard to
understand how people profiting from this go to sleep at night.

~~~
mruts
What's wrong with nicotine? Besides being addictive, all of its effects are
positive: increased cognition and memory, preventive against dementia and
parkinson's, mild mood stabilization.

------
pan69
There is always a new generation of gullible suckers waiting in line to be
taken advance of, once I was one of them.

I started smoking when I was 15. I smoked for 15 years and manage to quit 17
years ago. I can honestly say that to quit smoking is the best (health) choice
I ever made.

------
mnemotechny
The unconscionable marketing of e-cigarettes to minors should alert us to
parallels with marijuana. The same concerns apply to marijuana legalization if
we are not careful.

------
virgakwolfw
Never underestimate the relationship between the rich and the ignorant. These
people trade tobacco for a synthetic chemical......cancer just comes sooner I
suspect.

~~~
mruts
Fortunately we have science in place of what you "suspect." And E-cigs have
very little cancer potential (possibly none at all) compared to tobacco.

------
5_minutes
Stop on holidays. Take champix. An cut alcohol and coffee for a few days and
that'all you have to do quit.

~~~
mdekkers
_Take champix_

That's terrible advice. Champix and Zyban produce " _feelings of agitation,
depressed mood, hostility, changes in behaviour or impulsive or disturbing
thoughts, such as ideas of self-harm or of harming others_ ". I had several
doctors literally tell me "to stay the fuck away from that garbage"

~~~
antoinevg
Yet it's the only thing I've found that helped me permanently quit a 32 year
smoking habit.

My family is deeply grateful for that "garbage".

------
bitxbitxbitcoin
They can now optimize the "perfect" amount of nicotine in each hit now that'll
maximize profit while accounting for lifespan.

~~~
schrodinger
Nicotine is no worse for you than caffeine; it’s not what kills you in
cigarettes, it’s just what makes them pleasurable.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Battery is dead. Guess I'll just satisfy my addiction with some cigs.

~~~
chroma
Or gum. Or patches. Or lozenges. Or go buy another vape or recharge your
battery. You'd have to go out and buy the cigarettes anyway. It's not like
they magically appear in your home.

~~~
darpa_escapee
I can think of several gas stations, liquor stores and convenience stores that
sell neither nicotine gum, patches nor lozenges. They all sell cigarettes,
though.

