
Dead Malls - wallflower
http://deadmalls.com/
======
helen___keller
In my opinion, the suburban mall has always been an aberration and a
contradiction. In the dispersed urban system that is the suburbs, malls
attempted to offer the synergy and community that the dense city can offer - a
walkable (from within) "city center" to buy what you need, for people to meet
up and socialize, and so on.

And yet they weren't - they were sprawling monoliths only accessible via car.
They weren't integrated meaningfully into existing city centers or the
existing communities of the city. They were erected and expected to produce
their own mini-city and mini-community, which they did faithfully for some
years as they filled a niche that is otherwise unavailable to suburbanites.

But they don't make sense, not in the traditional city that can be navigated
without a car, nor in the modern city that is thoughtfully designed with cars
as a secondary concern and not as the first class citizen.

The final token that big box stores offered - a variety of goods that cannot
be matched by smaller local stores - is mostly extinguished by the convenience
of e-commerce which gives us access to _nearly any_ product straight to our
door. This is why the most successful remaining big box stores are those that
offer products that can be troublesome or impossible to ship - Home Depot,
Ikea, etc

~~~
maxsilver
I don't see the contradiction. There are lots of suburban-styled malls inside
"traditional cities" (dense urban areas), that look and work basically the
same way, but are urban. Seattle has one or two of them, Portland has one,
Minneapolis has one, London Ontario has one -- all of these within the core
downtown.

Suburban malls are not uniquely suburban. Many of them are in suburbia because
they originally targeted average/regular/middle-income people, so they are
built in the places where those people are allowed to live (which in the US,
is almost exclusively suburban areas).

Generally speaking, "Dead Malls" has little to do with malls dying (in the US,
_we 're still building brand new malls today_), but has more to do with
demographics shift (middle income people now live in different areas) and
target market shifts (many new malls have moved up-market, there are less
wealthy people than working-class people, and wealthier people generally don't
live in the then-new 1970s/1980s suburbs anymore, they now generally live
either full-downtown-urban or far-exurban)

~~~
mumblemumble
The Eaton Centers in Toronto and Montréal also come to mind. They're huge, and
intimately plugged into the center of the city, including being directly
connected to subway stations.

That said, they're also, I suspect, mostly for tourists.

The Milwaukee area's malls really make the situation for suburban malls clear:
The city buses do go to the malls, but the malls wouldn't let them drop people
off by the door. They stop at an open air bus shelter at the far end of the
parking lot.

~~~
koolba
Why didn’t they want bus traffic directly to the mall?

~~~
mumblemumble
My first guess would be concern that buses driving all the way up to the mall
would somehow impede the flow of traffic for cars.

My second guess would be that, Milwaukee being such a suburban flight city,
there are certain. . . _perceptions_. . . about public transit and the people
who use it. I used to end up in some rather uncomfortable conversations when
people found out I regularly used public transit.

My best guess would be that it's officially one, and unconsciously both.

~~~
bobthepanda
It’s also worth noting that navigating the mall parking lot is very slow for
buses, and increased travel time on bus routes

1\. Increases opex significantly, up to the point where you may need an
additional bus and driver to provide the same frequency

2\. Is bad for anyone making a trip passing through the mall

------
codingdave
I still think a dead mall would be a great startup incubator - each small
group gets its own office, tons of shared space to interact with each other,
food court for local restaurants to cater to everyone, some big anchor spaces
for the larger companies (or even a local data center), and even some built-in
back offices for the property managers.

~~~
tomatotomato37
I feel like malls have potential as massive culinary incubators, with the
tired chain clothes store replaced with massive arrays of experimental
restaurants and bars. This is anecdotal, but every 1-2 weeks I go to a mall I
work near for lunch, yet for the two years I have been doing this I have yet
to purchase any non-food merchandise (though I got close when browsing one of
the bookstores).

~~~
bpyne
I could get behind this. But it has to be different from current mall fare. I
hate chain restaurants. Food courts tend to be sandwiches or fried crap passed
off as ethnic.

When I lived in Boston there was a place in Chinatown called the Eatery. When
you walked into the main room it had probably 15 different stalls, all with
different types of Asian food. Everything was made to order. A mall converted
into something like that I could get behind.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Food trucks serve this role in a few American cities (Portland, Austin).
Nothing like the hawker stalls of Singapore, but fairly diverse.

~~~
irrational
Unfortunately the greatest concentration of food carts in Portland has gotten
shut down. The land is being developed into a condo :-(

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thatgerhard
It just needs galleries, I'm not going to read a blog post about a defunct
mall without any pictures..

~~~
kalleboo
The YouTuber Dan Bell has a series where he explores dying or abandoned malls,
juxtaposed with archive video from when they were alive and vaporwave music.

[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNz4Un92pGNxQ9vNgmnCx...](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNz4Un92pGNxQ9vNgmnCx7dwchPJGJ3IQ)

~~~
StavrosK
Those videos have a very interesting aesthetic, it kind of reminds me of what
happens when someone who doesn't know how to make videos (and thus doesn't
know the current trends) starts making them, in the process inventing their
own, totally new style.

~~~
Macross8299
Vaporwave aesthetics are pretty interesting. The late 80s - mid 90s period of
pop culture seems to have a lot of nostalgic and pseudo-nostalgic appeal for a
lot of people.

~~~
arbitrary_name
It's weird. My partner and I are late twenties and talk a lot about 'nostalgia
for something never truly experienced'.

We were too young to experience the '80s, and most of the '90s passed us by as
children. But now, looking back, there is such a strong appeal - technology
was still exciting without the societal consequences and complications - we
really only used computers to play games and not for productivity. The anxiety
and stress of social networks did not emerge until we were effectively adults
and therefore a bit more immune.

Anyway, we love Com Truise, HOME, Flamingosis, and other artists (Simpwave on
youtube!) creating a neo-retro-synth-vapour kind of pastiche, but it's odd to
think that it's all referencing things that we are experiencing only in
hindsight.

~~~
pixelbath
It's even odder from the perspective of someone who actually lived through it.
I'm guessing the way I feel now is similar to how people my parents' age felt
with all the hippie culture appropriation my friends were doing in the 90s.

------
wil421
There’s a dead mall by an old office I used to work at. Stranger Things Season
3 rented a side of the mall and transformed it into an 80s mall.

This mall should die anyway. It has an H Mart and a Macy’s no one goes to.

[https://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/multimedia/photos-
stranger...](https://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/multimedia/photos-stranger-
things-season-at-gwinnett-place-
mall/collection_f2d9b7f2-9df0-11e9-a599-2b125d10940d.html)

~~~
abrugsch
WOW! that site slurps up so much personal data they won't even allow me to
view it from Europe in case they violate GDPR... "451: Unavailable due to
legal reasons

We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces
the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be
granted at this time."

------
aatharuv
Andrew Yang has thought of this (like seemingly everything else). He's calling
for amongst other things matching federal grants for helping repurposes dead
malls (and the 300 malls he says will likely close over the next 4 years) for
other purposes.

[https://www.yang2020.com/policies/american-mall-
act/](https://www.yang2020.com/policies/american-mall-act/)

------
kellengreen
Bright Sun Films on YouTube should get a shout out here. He produces a series
called Abandoned, which covers topics like this.

[https://www.youtube.com/user/BrightSunGaming](https://www.youtube.com/user/BrightSunGaming)

------
black_puppydog
I said it before and I'll say it again: the fact that malls are (justifiably)
regarded as a treasured social institution in communities seems ridiculous to
me. It's a statement on the failure of a society to provide places for
meaningful interaction beyond consumption, or places to feel safe that are not
guarded by private security.

~~~
wil421
Have you ever tried a park? There are probably 5-10 parks within 5 miles of me
including a huge river parks and nature preserves.

People grilling, kids playing, walking/running/biking/kayaking/paddle boarding
and people just sitting and relaxing. Lots of social interaction.

If you’re out of grade school a mall is not an appropriate place for social
interaction.

~~~
jonlucc
There are a lot of places where parks are nearly unusable for months of a
year. I'm not in an extreme climate by any measure, but there are 3 months
when socializing in a park is at best uncomfortable.

Why do you specify "out of grade school"? Isn't the fact that the mall is the
go-to for grade schoolers just as big a problem? Where are kids and adults
_supposed_ to hang out in a group without having to host in their small home?

~~~
wil421
Gyms, parks, bars, and restaurants are the usual suspects. Dog parks are great
too. I’m also trying to get into a community garden and take a class at an art
center, I’ll likely be on the younger side in the last two.

Kayaking (not whitewater) and fishing are my two favorites especially if you
combine the two. I usually talk to any fisherman I see and people come up to
me at the ramp to chat.

~~~
jonlucc
None of those places are meant as hangout locations, and all of them require
paying. Malls were useful to kids because being there was free for essentially
an unlimited amount of time. Sure, you'd buy a soda once in a while, but
that's not enough to be allowed to spend 4 hours in a bar or restaurant.

A closer use case would be neighborhood centers, but in my area, those are
mostly closed in the evenings or at least reserved for private use.

~~~
CDSlice
Where do you live that you have to pay to access a public park?

~~~
jonlucc
Read the rest of the thread. Parks aren't really an option for about 1/4 of
the year where I live.

------
jasoncartwright
Hosting co Rackspace's HQ is a former mall in San Antonio, Texas
[https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/realestate/commercial/rac...](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/realestate/commercial/rackspace-
revitalizes-a-defunct-mall-into-an-unorthodox-tech-campus.html)

~~~
tlynchpin
AboveNet built out a datacenter in a mostly derelict mall in the middle of
downtown San Jose. At the time the irony of ecommerce servers in an abandoned
mall was fresh and surreal.

------
Hates_
Retail Archaelogy is another great YouTube channel on the same subject:
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR2LNeZSqINp0WTd_eWCIGg](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR2LNeZSqINp0WTd_eWCIGg)

------
earino
Some unexpected racism in the story for the Harding Mall in Nashville, TN:

> Throughout the many years, this mall really saw the tenants come and go. It
> was no big deal until foreign language people and gangs took over this part
> of Nashville.

~~~
mieseratte
I fail to see racism in the quote, it seems to be describing demographic shift
of the mall as it fell out of popularity.

> Then just as Harding Mall thought it was the end, it was not. Due to the
> high levels of foreign people and foreign languages, a local enteprenuer saw
> hope in the old mall cinema. He leased the space and ran movies that cost
> about 50% less than what other theaters charge today and they were all
> foreign speaking films.

~~~
MrsPeaches
> foreign language people and gangs took over this part of Nashville

This is clearly grouping "foreign language people" and "gangs" together. The
phrase "took over" has negative connotations.

It's pretty clearly saying that it is bad that people who speak foreign came
into the area, not just neutrally "describing [a] demographic shift of the
mall "

~~~
mieseratte
> The phrase "took over" has negative connotations.

If you want it to, sure, it absolutely can!

> It's pretty clearly saying that it is bad that people who speak foreign came
> into the area, not just neutrally "describing [a] demographic shift of the
> mall "

No, it really isn't clearly saying what you're ascribing. That's your reading
into it what you want to see. No one cries racism when an article about
affluent whites taking over a neighborhood. This is just a different shift.

~~~
helen___keller
>No one cries racism when an article about affluent whites taking over a
neighborhood.

People absolutely do, even when words as strong as "took over" aren't used.
Whenever race is mentioned wrt gentrification, it's one of the top comments|

For example
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19819695](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19819695)

> With the passage of the Civil Rights Act, we as a society decided that
> racial segregation was bad, and trying to demonize people people buying
> homes in a certain area due to their race was wrong

...

> Not okay to tell some one he ought not live somewhere because of his race.
> This is true regardless of what that race may be.

~~~
mieseratte
Well I was clearly wrong to claim "no one," but that has no bearing on whether
the user-submitted article referenced was written with actual racial animus as
asserted, or was just ill-phrased observation.

------
ksangeelee
The Dead Malls site links to another treasure trove of retail history -
[http://pleasantfamilyshopping.blogspot.com/](http://pleasantfamilyshopping.blogspot.com/)

For example, the clip in this post is a fascinating glimpse of Los Angeles in
1954.
[http://pleasantfamilyshopping.blogspot.com/2012/02/shopping-...](http://pleasantfamilyshopping.blogspot.com/2012/02/shopping-
in-los-angeles-1950s.html)

------
gerbilly
In cold climates, why not turn dead malls into giant indoor parks?

That way people could go jogging in a T-shirt in February.

Especially the malls that have big skylights, you could plant trees and
greenery inside.

Maybe install a few pools.

------
mdip
I live next door to a large, modern, outdoor mall (which is very popular; it's
a horrible pain in the butt around Christmas). These are obviously not the
"dead malls" that the site is referring to.

As a kid from the 90s living two miles from a near-dead mall and within 25
miles of 3 completely dead ones, I'd love to see them convert the walking
areas into a large skating rink[0]. Heck, I just ordered a Onewheel and live
in an area that is regularly covered in snow -- that'd be a hell of a venue to
roll around in.

Granted, it's a terribly inefficient use of the land, after
insurance/marketing/staffing costs, etc, it'd probably be impossible in most
places to charge a ticket fee that would be profitable.

[0] I have to believe this has been done somewhere, already. The Lions used to
play at this horrible venue called The Silverdome in Auburn Hills, Michigan.
After they moved to the new stadium in Detroit, they used to do open skating
on the weekends around the outer concession area (the large ring you walk
through to get to your seats). It was a few bucks plus rental fees and was
always busy.

~~~
tfandango
There's a medium sized mall in my town and it's doing very well, it is always
quite busy. Similarly there are huge malls in OKC and Tulsa which are doing
great, they are full and have the most expensive retail space in the state.
However Crossroads Mall in OKC became completely abandoned. I feel like there
are lots of other factors involved in the success and failure of malls.

------
bovermyer
I have occasionally toyed with the idea of buying a dead/abandoned mall and
turning it into an enormous adult playground.

~~~
jasoncartwright
They seem to be popular with airsoft players
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrGdr537jCw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrGdr537jCw)

~~~
Merrill
Drone racing would be good too.

------
Merrill
One of the local "dead malls" is thriving as a collection of about 3 strip
malls surrounding the common parking lot. Each "strip mall" has one or two big
box stores and a couple have a line of smaller stores.

Of course, the two story mall itself, with its internal hallways and rows of
boutique stores, is gone.

~~~
technothrasher
One of the places I remember most vividly from my childhood Christmas times
was the "Shopper's World" mall in Framingham, MA (which is indeed listed in
the above Dead Malls website). It was a two story mall that was wrapped around
and open to a central grassy area. While incredibly dated now looking at
pictures, the architecture was pretty cool and memorable. They tore it down in
the mid 90's and replaced it with a very boring big-box plaza mall that looks
exactly like every other one in existence. It still does a fine business.
Makes me sad any time I go there now.

Additionally nostalgic, the local Hostess bakery was across the street pumping
its exhaust into the air. Whenever you went to the Shopper's World mall, the
whole area smelled like Wonder Bread.

------
_bxg1
I've always been drawn to weird, haunting, empty urban spaces. I also feel an
affinity for vast spaces with huge, elaborate skylights like you find in
malls. Throw in some nostalgia and I'm enjoying this YouTube channel.

------
JacKTrocinskI
Google is leasing the Westside Pavilion in LA, looks really nice:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkggQS0eTSw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkggQS0eTSw)

------
zw123456
Maybe they should advertise their dead mall as a fun hide and seek venue :)

~~~
smileysteve
this is pleasantly relevant given today's Ikea Ireland news

~~~
zw123456
It seemed synergistic to me :)

------
your-nanny
Dead malls should become foodie plazas with childcare for diners.

------
pkaye
Here in California I've noticed the newer open outdoor malls are doing better.

------
Apfel
Sidenote: isn't it a bit odd that they have a merchandise page?

[https://www.cafepress.com/deadmalls](https://www.cafepress.com/deadmalls)

~~~
cj
I had a niche site like this back in the day, and I also has a merchandise
page built on Cafepress. I didn't sell a single shirt, but I had fun by the
idea that I might. Cafepress pages take at most 30 minutes to create.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Heh, me too, and some random guy on the other side of the world actually
bought a clock with my logo on it. Other than a few mugs for myself that was
literally the only sale I ever made. I often ponder what became of that clock.

~~~
phasetransition
Did you ever try to track it down? A documentary connecting buyers and sellers
of low-quantity sale cafepress items might be lovely.

~~~
jacobush
Cafepress should automate that connection.

------
taneq
We should fill them with internet-connected theme parks filled with 3D printed
displays.

------
erikig
The truth is, every mall right now is a dead mall. Just like every mechanical
watch is an inaccurate watch - it seems that most people opt to use malls
primarily for emotional reasons.

With Amazon and Walmart now offering next day delivery for almost nothing and
the changes in many American neighborhoods - the countdown is on for these
vestiges of 1980’s Americana.

~~~
mcphage
> it seems that most people opt to use malls primarily for emotional reasons

People also like to try on clothes before they buy them, to make sure they
fit.

~~~
erikig
I completely agree but with services like Prime Wardrobe and Bombfell etc you
can have a box of clothes delivered to you in 3 different sizes and return
what doesn't fit.

