
Tesla Model S Suspension Failures Under Scrutiny by Safety Agency - hackuser
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/10/business/tesla-model-s-nhtsa-suspension-failure.html
======
hackuser
I found this part very interesting:

 _In the case of the Model S’s suspension, Tesla took care of repairs for some
customers who complained to the company, on the condition that they agreed in
writing not to talk about the issue or how Tesla dealt with it. The
agreements, however, stirred up discussion on online bulletin boards.

Dailykanban.com, an auto industry blog, posted excerpts from what it said was
an agreement. It said, in part: “You agree to keep confidential our provision
of the Goodwill, the terms of this agreement and the incidents or claims
leading or related to our provision of the Goodwill.” “Goodwill” is the term
Tesla used to refer to any repairs or compensation it made because of a
suspension failure.

The agreement posted on the blog released Tesla from any liability and barred
the car owners from filing legal proceedings against the company._

\---

More and more I get the sense that Musk is in firm control of everything I
read about his companies.

~~~
bigiain
FWIW, I've seen that sort of language about "goodwill repairs" for instances
where a company agrees to fix things that are out of warranty - a friend
signed something similar to that to get a replacement frame on a Ducati ST4
which was ~3 years out of warranty. They covered the cost of a new frame and
several thousand dollars worth of labour to install, but asked for an NDA
(rumours from the time suggest they didn't enforce the NDA requirement, and
fixed people's bikes anyway if they refused to sign).

~~~
honkhonkpants
Yamaha does the exact thing with cracked frames. They present an NDA but if
you refuse they replace it anyway, which of course is the right thing to do.

------
brokenmachine
It is very worrying that a car company would expect customers to sign an NDA
to have their faulty cars fixed.

That practice should certainly be illegal, in the interest of public safety.

~~~
NeutronBoy
I wonder what the consequences for refusing to sign the NDA would be? Under
consumer law, they would still be responsible for fixing your car, especially
if it's a safety issue.

~~~
TylerE
A goodwill repair means one done outside the normal warranty period. So, no,
they don't have to.

~~~
NeutronBoy
In many countries the warranty period isn't binding - the product is entitled
to repair as for as long as the 'expected lifetime' of the product.

For a luxury car like a Model S, you'd be well within that period still,
especially given that they're being described as 'premature failures'.

> The safety regulator is examining the Model S suspension — the springs,
> joints and other components that connect a car to its wheels — for possible
> defects that could be causing premature failures.

Also, the last thing Tesla need at the moment is cars failing just outside the
warranty period and then not repairing them - as noted, it just highlights
their lack of support network and lack of general repairability at the moment.

~~~
CamperBob2
_In many countries the warranty period isn 't binding - the product is
entitled to repair as for as long as the 'expected lifetime' of the product._

What would be an example of such a country... and what does it cost to buy an
average car there?

~~~
emp_zealoth
First one to come to mind is UK People were getting repairs to electronics
years after they bought them

------
ams6110
Welcome to the real world of building cars. Some problems just don't appear
until cars have been in the hands of owners and out in the wild for a while.

And hopefully this should temper some of the enthusiasts claims that because
they are electric, the cars are "maintenance free."

We'll likely all be driving electric cars at some point. But Tesla and the
other automakers will have to go through a lot of growing pains before we get
there.

~~~
mark-r
The story isn't about the suspension failures. The story is about the
nondisclosure.

~~~
phkahler
>> The story isn't about the suspension failures. The story is about the
nondisclosure.

Tesla wouldn't need the nondisclosure agreements if the suspension failures
were not story worthy.

~~~
kbenson
As other comments here have pointed out, that may be a faulty assumption. If
nothing else, an NDA could be construed as an action to prevent an act of
goodwill from being presented publicly as a tacit admission of fault. If so,
it's fairly ironic that the NDA itself can be presented publicly as a tacit
admission of guilt to good effect.

------
sidcool
Tesla's response: [https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/grain-of-
salt](https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/grain-of-salt)

------
jballer
Buried in the original form thread[1] there are links to two articles[2][3]
about drivers who died when they drove off cliffs in their Model S's. These
are absolutely chilling to read in light of the potential suspension issues…

1:
[https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1573665/](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1573665/)

2: [http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20150623/man-who-
died-...](http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20150623/man-who-died-in-
fiery-malibu-canyon-crash-of-tesla-is-53-year-old-from-calabasas)

3: [http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/3318773-181/marin-
county-d...](http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/3318773-181/marin-county-
driver-who-died?gallery=3314901&artslide=0)

------
abakker
Does anyone have any idea what the mode of the failures were? It would be
interesting to see whether it was a manufacturing vs a design problem.

~~~
maratd
[https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/suspension-
problem-o...](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/suspension-problem-on-
model-s.69204/)

~~~
userbinator
Wow. That ball joint is completely dry. It looks like it's never been greased,
or any grease left the joint a long time ago.

~~~
abakker
I really wish companies would build better ball joints in general. My Toyota
Tundra had them go bad 3 times in 2 years before I went with aftermarket
control arms with uniballs.

I agree though, it looks like the boot that would hold grease on the ball
joint failed, and then all the grease just bled away.

Edit: I did not realize, but it appears from the thread that the upper arm is
made from aluminum on the tesla? Can anyone confirm? It would very
inappropriate to spec steel hardware in an aluminum socket like that for
reasons of galvanic corrosion.

~~~
zaroth
The thread must have about 5 full pages of speculation about galvanic
corrosion. After someone makes the convincing point that it would be the
_aluminum_ disintegrating, not the steel, they switch to speculation about
corrosion due to _stray current_.

~~~
abakker
Right, I was just wondering if someone could confirm that the upper A arm and
ball socket were actually aluminum. It seems a very unlikely material choice
for that part to me. I just don't have a tesla to go check on myself.

Honestly, if the boot failed and the guy drove through saltwater, the steel of
that part still shouldn't have rusted that badly. My armchair guess is that
Tesla or their supplier didn't spec it wrong, but got a bad batch of metal in
there that was improperly treated or alloyed.

~~~
userbinator
There are pictures of a rusted one here. Poster claims it is steel and I'm
inclined to believe because aluminium does not rust like this:

[https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1512181/](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1512181/)

------
stevep98
Tesla has posted their response:

[https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/grain-of-
salt](https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/grain-of-salt)

~~~
lsaferite
Great response from Tesla.

Not sure the detour into 2 tow trucks and a dirt road was needed, but whatever
floats their boat I guess.

------
VeejayRampay
The level of scrutiny Tesla is under is extremely surprising. It's like
anecdotal is enough to warrant a big story every single time. I'm usually not
one for conspiracies, but it is odd that we see so many posts on Tesla's
issues and not so much for other car manufacturers, making it appear from the
outside world that Tesla cars are nothing but problems.

Then again, there might also be selection bias on my part when selecting
stories about cars in general, entirely possible. And maybe they're so
disruptive that they actually do attract more attention, both positive and
negative.

------
sharmajai
I thought initially that they did this so as to prevent their "goodwill" from
getting misused by other customers. But then I realized their warranty should
cover replacement and repair , regardless, for 4 years, 50000 miles [1]. What
gives Tesla?

1.[https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Model_S...](https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Model_S_New_Vehicle_Limited_Warranty_201602_en_NA.pdf)

~~~
tdiggity
The guy had 70,000 miles on his car.
[https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/suspension-
problem-o...](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/suspension-problem-on-
model-s.69204/)

------
Fej
I want to love Tesla so bad, but stories like this remind me that they're
still putting out an early-adopter product. I can deal with being an early
adopter of, say, a phone, but a car? Where one little mistake can make the
difference between life and death? That's a tall order.

Also, they spy on you, so there's that, too.

------
oconnor663
_> [the NHTSA] closed the matter after Tesla agreed to reinforce the shield
that protects the battery_

"Agreed"? Was Tesla reluctant to reinforce their batteries until this
regulator pressured them to do it, or was this wording chosen to make Tesla
sound bad?

------
dsfyu404ed
You think it's bad now.... wait until they're old enough to start rusting.

~~~
feld
Huh? The entire car is aluminum. It can't rust.

~~~
mistercow
It's not entirely aluminum. Some parts of the Model S are steel, and it
appears the Model 3 will be mostly steel.

You can clearly see rust in the pictures on this thread (posted elsewhere in
the HN discussion): [https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/suspension-
problem-o...](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/suspension-problem-on-
model-s.69204/)

~~~
feld
I'm talking about the frame and the body panels. Those aren't normally user
serviceable parts. If there are other parts (suspension, etc) that are steel I
would expect they need to be replaced for regular wear long before they
completely rust through.

If the Model 3 isn't an aluminum body and frame I no longer want one. I live
where it snows and they salt a lot. I want some level of confidence the car
won't be completely trashed in a few short years.

That forum thread is certainly interesting....

~~~
dsfyu404ed
sacrificial coating > good paint > good anodes> base metal.

(I'm ignoring fancy expensive things such as high quality stainless and
titanium alloys because you can't build a million car bodies out of those)

Properly coated steel will last longer than poorly coated aluminum. Just look
at galvanized or properly painted steel vs an aluminum outboard that lost it's
anode (saltwater applications of course).

Aluminum "doesn't corrode" because the initial corrosion forms a coating that
prevents further corrosion. If you wire wheel AL bar stock it will shine. If
you put that bar stock outside somewhere other than the desert it will tarnish
in a few days. If you put that bar stock underneath a vehicle it will slowly
turn to dust as the dust/dirt/etc slowly blast away any surface coating that
forms exposing new material which corrodes and the cycle is repeated until
your aluminum part has turned to dust.

In reality something as thick as a control arm will fatigue and crack long
before that. If you're trying to reduce weight by using aluminum there's a
near 0% chance that you're designing the part to last more than a few hundred
percent of the warranty period for the most demanding typical use case (in the
case of suspension parts that would be something like doing 10k mi/yr on
graded dirt and potholed pavement)

Among the google results for "why aluminum doesn't rust":
[http://news.stanford.edu/pr/00/aluminum511.html](http://news.stanford.edu/pr/00/aluminum511.html)

