
Some things I love about Hacker News (and a few I don’t) - ryanwaggoner
http://ryanwaggoner.com/2010/09/some-things-i-love-about-hacker-news-and-a-few-i-dont/
======
shadowsun7
What I like most about HN is that it's an incredibly efficient filter for
reading.

For instance, if I come across a fairly controversial article, or a
fascinating new data set, I no longer spend as much time pausing to critically
think about it - I instead open the HN comment thread and read all the
intelligent for/against arguments that arise, naturally, in the comments.

In simple terms, HN becomes a secondary brain for me. And that saves me time.

Of course - this doesn't happen in a vacuum. The beauty of HN is that if
you've read an interesting article, and there aren't many comments at that
point in time, it's your duty to add your thoughts to HN, because sometimes
you can see things that nobody else can and that's valuable.

And the mutual thinking, the group powered fact-checking and the argumentation
- all this is contributed to by all, and enjoyed by all.

~~~
Qz
_For instance, if I come across a fairly controversial article, or a
fascinating new data set, I no longer spend as much time pausing to critically
think about it_

This strikes me as a tragedy.

~~~
etherael
Only in the same sense that calculators are a tragedy, when the simple takes
less effort, there is more effort left for the complex. The analogy of an
externalised group brain is actually a pretty good one, and one may contribute
to said brain as much as one benefits from it, to boot.

~~~
Qz
Maybe this is my own prejudice, but I think there's a big difference between
practicing basic math skills constantly, and exercising critical thinking
constantly.

~~~
etherael
Sure there's quite a big difference, but it's the same basic idea, a concept
which through independent enquiry may only occur to you after period of time x
has elapsed instead is presented to you in a shorter period of time than
period x. That doesn't necessarily mean you don't critically analyse the
presented concept, or that you don't analyse other aspects of the problem
space merely because you have neatly parcelled answer handed to you, it's just
a single aspect which you did not independently need to construct.

------
jeromec
I enjoyed this article, but I would suggest a minor correction: PG is
phenomenal, but I don't believe he is responsible for shifting the balance of
power from investors to founders. I think that's a function of technology and
the Internet itself, as barriers to start a startup continue to be lowered. In
fact, PG himself said in a TC interview there was a time (not long ago) when
you almost literally had to ask permission from investors to launch a startup.
That has changed, and would have been the case with or without PG, I'm fairly
sure. I do, however, believe PG seriously helps to educate, encourage, and
facilitate startups on the road to success within this natural function, a
handful directly as YC companies, and many more through everything else he
does, like his essays, Startup School, and HN.

One thing I'd add to the list of dislikes of HN is how some downvoting is
applied. I think downvotes are great as a mod tool for shunning comments that
are hollow, trollish, or otherwise don't contribute to the discussion. What I
dislike is seeing downvotes applied carelessly because of casual disagreement
with a commment which is otherwise well thought out. I'd rather people
actually reply expressing their dissent, which at least gives the chance for
rebuttal and further debate. Downvoting is the easy way out, and tends to look
rather insulting to me, because being at zero or sub-zero relegates serious
commenters to the same class as trolls. I don't think that encourages a
healthy commenting community.

~~~
grellas
Back in the day (1980s, 1990s), only a closed circle of serial entrepreneurs
knew the ins and outs of the business/legal side of launching and building a
startup and the paucity of information available to those outside this circle
was a _major_ barrier to entry for young entrepreneurs, even within Silicon
Valley. Beyond that, you basically had to be _in_ Silicon Valley, or in one of
only a very few other centers within the United States, to have a ghost of a
chance of putting together a credible team for a startup. When you add to that
the capital-intensive requirements for any credible startup back then
(usually, a need for $2M to $4M out the gate to fund server purchases, etc.
and to put together a quality team of high-priced engineers who, mainly for
lack of knowledge, were not otherwise drawn to the startup world as they are
today), most doors were closed to young founders, other than as they were
willing to become supplicants at the VC entry point into this world.

All that has changed, and decisively so. I would say that PG, as innovator,
funder, and philosophical guru for the new breed of entrepreneurs that no
longer faces the old barriers, _is_ a major symbol of that change and a major
contributor to it. I agree, though, that it is inaccurate to say that he
single-handedly or even primarily made it possible.

It has been fascinating to watch all this occur over the years. Founders were
once little more than grist for the VC mill. All that has changed, and I don't
see it ever going back. Investors remain invaluable to the process but today
are required to deal with founders on terms tipping much closer to equality of
bargaining power than ever before.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
I agree with you and the parent, and just want to point out that I did say
that PG was _helping_ shift the balance of power. I think having someone with
power and money and influence in the valley who consistently demonstrates that
hungry startups can build great things with almost no money _must_ have some
kind of effect.

~~~
jeromec
I did notice you said "helping". The reason I continued with the post is I
still think what PG does, his money, influence, etc. has little if anything to
do with the power shift, even in the context of helping it. VCs (and Angels to
an extent) are primarily interested in doing things in their own best
interest. It's probably true that many investors give YC companies more
respect in terms of the deals they do, but, as PG points out, that's because
it's in their own interest to not turn YC against them for future deals.
That's not a shift of power, just a case of privileged treatment. Non-YC
startups are still quite subject to getting screwed by VCs. Where the actual
power shift occurs is in the leverage investors once had over founders for
pushing any project forward. It used to be that for any given idea (which is
accepted to be fairly valueless at that point) carrying it forward meant
investors _had_ to be involved. Why? Well, let's look at the things a startup
has to have...

1\. Development - this is often the biggest cost and challenge. Unless the
founders themselves were developers one would have needed lots of investment
capital many years ago to develop even what we consider standard applications
today, like ecommerce sites. Today powerful, efficient open source platforms
exist, like Magento. Publishing platforms like Wordpress have meant even hobby
writers like Michael Arrington could create, publish, and build a blog
reaching millions of readers, as he did with TechCrunch, by simply pointing
and clicking. Development costs are much lower, and outsourced and/or
collaborative development is now more viable than ever before. Nothing to do
with PG here.

2\. Servers/Hosting/Business Location - the further we look back, the more it
cost to establish a business presence. In the old days startups were almost
synonymous with brick-and-mortar buildings. Even when the products became
software which could be sold virtually, rather than physically, early dot com
startups were expected to have a real world base of operations, especially
when adding in the need for comprehensive server capacity. This costs money.
Nowadays, entrepreneurs can meet virtually, develop, blog and pretty much
create value in their pajamas from anywhere in the world. Platforms like the
iPod/iPad further provide reach, distribution and act as little money
collection windows around the world.

3\. Marketing - this is a big one, and probably the biggest reason investors
played a key role early on. Reaching people costs money. In the early dot com
days there were marketing budgets in the millions being thrown around at all
manner of ideas. One needed significant money to even get noticed in such an
environment. Today, social networks, publishing, and sharing platforms allow
information to travel much more freely. Search engines have gotten better at
identifying quality sites. Consider the Conan O'Brien anecdote where he
explains that he sent out a single tweet directing people to a web page where
they could buy tickets for his tour, which then sold out in a matter of hours.
He couldn't believe he didn't have to go to a single radio show, or otherwise
do any promotion.

I believe successfully traversing these three areas are crucial to any
startup's success. As I've explained the further you go back in time, the more
likely you were to need investment money to have any chance at playing the
game seriously. All that has changed in the direction of favoring founders.
PG, again, while great, really had nothing to do with this. Sorry I didn't
elaborate all this the first time. ;)

------
jswinghammer
One of the things I like is that when you email someone here asking for help
or advice they're quite nice about it. I've gotten some very thoughtful
responses from people here when I've asked for feedback.

~~~
Keyframe
I even got a few emails, out of nowhere, furthering discussion that was
started here. It was rather surprising (in a good way) and overall feeling I
get when I talk to anyone from here (either here or email) is like that from a
close colleague that I have respect for and whom I can trust.

One thing I've learned about HN though, don't write anything negative about
Apple. Ever. :)

~~~
mattmaroon
A solid rule if you care about karma. Except as regards to the iOS app store
policies. Then you'll even find agreement when criticizing.

I think all Apple criticism will become more well-received over time as people
have their Animal Farm moment and realize the pigs have become indiscernible
from the humans.

------
ryanwaggoner
I know this probably seems like linkbait, but I truly didn't write it for that
purpose. Just wanted to post it here to say thanks (truly) to everyone who
makes HN such an amazing community. It's one of the best things about the
Internet for me.

~~~
gizmomagico
You forgot about Political Correctness. Despite all the intellectualism, we
can't discuss things that are:

    
    
      - Outside of the realm of rainbows & unicorns
      - Inconvenient truths (about the world we live in)

~~~
jrockway
_Inconvenient truths (about the world we live in)_

It's because any time someone uses this expression, they are trying to
convince everyone that we should adopt their harebrained flat tax strategy, or
something. When someone has evidence to assert their beliefs, everyone
listens. When someone starts spouting garbage about the "inconvenient truth"
about how the rich are being oppressed by a 20% tax rate... well, then
everyone tunes out.

~~~
il
I think it's more inconvenient truths like "Your startup is overwhelmingly
likely to fail". Those types of pragmatic posts/comments generally are hushed
over in favor of the more exuberant ones.

~~~
nl
I think that is politeness.

------
messel
You mentioned how bright and knowledgeable the comments are to posts and I'd
like to add to that idea.

One feature of HN comments is the pseudo-anonymity. I can find out who folks
are, if they share info on their ID, but the way the comments are laid out I'm
usually reading the bolder toned conversations and ignoring who's saying it.
That's a very powerful concept.

Only when a comment really stands out as awesome or terrible do I look at the
author.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
It's true, but it's also fascinating to me that some people have built such a
powerful voice here. I can't count the number of times I've been reading a
really good comment and thought "this has to be patrick" and sure enough,
patio11. And he's not the only one.

~~~
detst
Yeah, I find myself doing that, too.

In fact, I made this observation in response to one of his comments a couple
months back.

I will also start reading a discussion thread that I'm pretty sure he will
comment on and stop so that I can come back later to read what he has to say.

------
ced
I love HN, but sometimes I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on tech and
start-ups. We're missing out on so many great people! It's awesome that we
have knowledgeable comments on web page design and computer security, but
where are all the hacker biologists, psychiatrists and gardeners? Presumably,
they're turned off by the NoSQL debates and the Techcrunch drama.

This site is purportedly about "anything that gratifies one's intellectual
curiosity."[1] Hopefully, we'll move closer to that ideal.

Otherwise, we might have to fork HN.

[1] <http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

~~~
frossie
_where are all the hacker biologists, psychiatrists, or gardeners?_

Err, we are here. You'd be wrong if you thought that everyone in HN is a
startup person, or even a programmer.

However, this is _hacker_ news hosted on _ycombinator_.com. There is a
prevailing standard focused on startups and even though I am not one of those
people (nor do I wish to be), I do my bit to fit in with the community
standard.

It's like you are walking in a park and there's a bunch of people having an
interesting conversation. You might ask to join in, but saying "why don't you
people have an interesting conversation about clock mechanisms instead?" would
be kinda rude.

Saying "I love HN, but sometimes I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on
tech and start-ups" strikes me as saying "I love the San Francisco Symphony
Orchestra but I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on classical music".

[Later edits in light of comments below:]

The interesting question to ask is "why are the non-startup people here". I
can only answer for myself: I came here to pick up interesting new sites (in
that way I am a refugee from techcrunch - reading it felt too much like a
lobotomy ). I stayed because of the quality of the discussion _and_ because
even though the startup folks sometimes seem to think they have a unique
ecosystem, a lot of their issues are really common to software and even wider
technical groups outside the commercial sector, like my own.

So no, from that point of view I wouldn't go to an HN fork - I just can't
afford another time sink, and I would still need to be on HN for my tech news.

As for non-software stories, there are quite a lot of really interesting
stories submitted, but they often don't gain enough traction for the home
page. But there is a lot of really varied stuff in /new if you look.

~~~
jokermatt999
I agree that Hacker News shouldn't shift its focus. However, I also think the
gp post has a good point that it would be nice to see a wider variety of
topics (although I'd prefer it to be a separate community). Is there another
Hacker News-like site that has the same quality of discussion?

Edit: fixed its.

------
gusper
While it may be a bit of a time-sink, it's also very streamlined and efficient
to consume. I love how visually simple it is: no images, the careful use of
dark/light text, formatting of comments, lack of ads, etc. Compared to the
other sites I still frequent, admittedly less and less since discovering HN,
the differences are not minor. Definitely becoming a big fan though still very
much an HN rookie.

------
terra_t
It seems to me that in 99% of the world, business people look down on
programmers, so it's nice to see there's a little corner of the world in which
it's the other way around.

~~~
webwright
Really? Why is that "nice"? I think it's sad-- and even sadder that you wrote
that and people voted it up. If one minority is stepped on in a corner of the
world, it is NOT justice if members of that same minority get to step on
someone else across the globe. We should judge people as individuals.

For some (very rare) software companies, pure business guys aren't super
useful in the early days (Dropbox seems like an obvious example, though they
certainly now need a good finance person and senior bizdev person). For the
rest, an A-level sales/bizdev guy can literally make the business. Do you
think Groupon is a technological feat or a business feat?

They're just like programmers (and the rest of the planet). 95% of them AREN'T
A-level players, but the rest are changing the world.

~~~
trustfundbaby
You're taking it a little too seriously. Its not about justice or anything
like that.

Its better to think of it as it being nice to have a little part of internet,
where your opinions as a hacker actually carry as much weight (if not more)
than the typical business guy.

~~~
alttab
The problem with this is the community-supported techie-self-righteous
attitude transfers to personal dealings with co-workers in a business or
management role.

This is HACKER News, but part of being a hacker is understanding the problem
enough to be able to decompose it and work efficiently. The lack of business-
acumen and "self-blinding" that HN does merely reflects the age or experience
of the community.

As Hackers, we should try to fully understand the business roles, the
management, and _WHY_ we are choosing software to solve a problem. Before
there were PCs, software wasn't a business model. Now we have it backwards, we
build software companies, not businesses.

The only guarantee when you start a tech start up (or less misleading: a
Software company) is that you will write software. It does not mean someone
will by it or you.

As a hacker to the bone with a CS degree and no formal education in the other
aspects of start up life I say we swallow our collective pride, admit we don't
yet understand 95% of what other business units do, and actually apply
ourselves to getting proficient at it.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I don't think I'm the Renaissance Man, I have just enough time to be good at
what I'm already doing.

------
mcantor
My major gripe about Hacker News is that the time you make a post
disproportionately affects its likelihood of making it to the front page.

~~~
jokermatt999
That seems to be inherent in the social news set up. Is there any way to
account for the time an article was submitted and keep the front page fresh?

~~~
philh
Instead of measuring time directly, make a post's "age" for the purposes of
ranking be a function of page views. (Or submissions, or something similar.)

I worry that it might be easier to game: refresh a lot of times before
submitting to make everything else older. Submissions might work better in
that regard, and there are probably other things you can do to mitigate the
problem.

~~~
blasdel
That's a pretty terrific idea — and you could make it harder to game by having
the page view count be a sum of how many logged in users over a karma
threshold had viewed it.

------
tokenadult
Yes, I think HN is especially valuable for young people not yet set on a
career path (who seem to make up the majority of the readership) in opening
their eyes to possibilities of entrepreneurship that also engages intellectual
curiosity. It works well for much older people like me in getting a reality
check on current trends.

------
brlewis
If you comment on the time-sink nature of HN you should at least mention the
noprocrast option.

~~~
piramida
Once I found and enabled anti-procrastination I find myself arriving at the
"sorry" page 4-5 times per day, getting back to work instantly instead of
wandering off on a knowledge hunt. Definitely one feature which makes HN the
great site it is.

------
mdoyle
I've only recently joined, posted my first request for advice and received
some great advice. In a world of social sites where people just tell you what
they had for dinner, this site feels like a great find which is full of
interesting articles and debates. My only gripe is that I would like external
links to open in a new tab or window if anything.

------
diego_moita
I wish he could be more detailed about the problems with HN. There is simply
too much Wired magazine and/or Silicon Valley entrepreneur culture & group
thinking around here and I think he didn't point it correctly.

Issues routinely bashed and ignored because they don't belong to this culture:
anything Microsoft, global warming, market trends in the 3rd world & Europe,
etc.

Irrelevant issues overly hyped just because they're loved by Silicon Valley
"hipsters": the last time Steve Jobs went to the toilet, the newest irrelevant
fad from Silicon Valley (Yelp, wtf?), libertarian-like conspiracy theories...

------
lelele
I like:

\- community, of course;

\- minimal design.

I dislike:

\- only total score for comments (no up-votes vs down-votes);

\- no folding;

\- no tagging;

\- no way to "watch" discussions or comments;

\- "More" link at the bottom of each page expires (thus you have to start from
front-page again, not nice if you read HN not that often);

\- no way to join discussions whenever someone find duplicates;

\- no contributions section (searchyc.com (which seems abandonware, btw),
pages with best discussions by topic, etc.).

EDIT: I dislike HN not being able to format an item list.

~~~
chengmi
"Abandonware" may be a bit extreme. How would you change SearchYC?

~~~
lelele
More than one request has been made to get quoted strings in queries, which
would be very useful, without any feedback from developers. The website is
still there, however it seems the developer have dumped the code and forgot
about it.

~~~
chengmi
I agree quoted strings in queries would be nice. There are some technical
challenges in handling mixed queries where some terms are quoted and others
are not, though.

~~~
lelele
Gosh, Her Majesty The Developer! Er... th-thanks for a-answering...

;-)))))

Jokes aside, thank you very much for developing SearchYC and making it
available.

What would you think about adding a FAQ section where - among other things -
you explain the "quoting issue" has indeed been considered, but dismissed
because of difficult implementation? I guess every web-surfer has got used to
quoting in searches, therefore not having it leaves him baffled.

Cheers.

------
skowmunk
HN has been a very good source of information and opinions on certain topics
of interest to me.

Have come across some really awesome articles that were immediately applicable
to my situation, some are absolute crap though.

The moderating mechanism has been a good source of constructive feedback for
my communication skills, which are far from great. (still, long way to go)

Came across some great perspectives on some issues, as well as some crappy
ones. Overall, I am glad I found it.

------
sdh
dislike: target != new

like: everything else :)

~~~
nkurz
Some people seem to agree with you, but I much prefer it the way it is: if I
want a new window, I shift-click; if I want a new tab, I cntl-click; if I want
to keep it in the same window, I just click.

This seems like the sanest choice to me, since everyone can have it work how
they want, even if their preferences change from time to time. Or is it
possible for everyone to get their desired behaviour even with "target = new"?

[http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_wind...](http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html)

------
kennedywm
I love that I can take a quick glimpse at the comments on an article before
deciding whether it's worth spending the time reading.

------
mdoyle
I also quite like the fact that the community moderates the content. Big plus
point for me.

------
sabat
I love HN and spend way too much time on here.

Three things that disappoint me:

* dog-pile downvoting on comments that are valid but that others may merely disagree with

* the practice of killing apparently valid stories with no explanation

* no 'target=' user preference so that external links could show up in another tab/window if so desired

~~~
aneth
Hold apple or alt when clicking on a link to open in a new frame.

~~~
sabat
Well, yeah. I just want it to be the default instead of having to remember to
hold down the command key to open in a new tab. It's a petty complaint, I do
realize. :-)

~~~
aneth
If they put a target, it would drive me crazy, particularly on my iPad.
Without a target, you decide, just like you do on every other web page.

~~~
sabat
I'm suggesting something different: that there is an option in user
preferences that would let you pick whether you get a new target or not.
Default off.

------
aneth
My greatest pet pieve on HN: The comment field is unusable on iOS, and the
rating targets are too small with no undo. I find myself composing in a notes
app and pasting.

(Only a problem because I like HN and spend a lot of time here recently.)

~~~
lotharbot
I continue to hope pg will modify the rating targets thusly:

    
    
      [up arrow] X points [down arrow] by name y hours ago...
    

I suspect this would greatly reduce the number of mis-votes.

