
Why Westerners Fear Robots and the Japanese Do Not - imartin2k
https://www.wired.com/story/ideas-joi-ito-robot-overlords/
======
brownbat
> While Japan had what could be called slavery, it was never at an industrial
> scale.

The "but it wasn't industrial” is a vague and arbitrary line. Yes, the Western
slave trade was massively horrific and incomparable. But in context the
sentence is suggesting the Japanese don't have a deep understanding of being
oppressors or oppressed, which doesn't withstand a glance at history. The
burakumin, minority groups like the Ainu, Korean relations under Hideyoshi
where they collected Korean ears and noses, or in WWII with the system of
comfort women... Japan wasn't somehow immune to the forces that lead to
oppression between groups.

More broadly the whole article seems premised on the fact that there's some
prominent Western sci fi Frankenstein stories, like Terminator, and some
notable anime about cyborgs.

But Japan has Frankenstein stories too. Some of the most famous sci fi out of
Japan is about how science and technology is dehumanizing. And Western sci fi
is obsessed with Frankenstein stories, at least partly as an accident of
literary history, because Frankenstein itself just grabbed hold of the popular
imagination in an era where Gothic horror was popular and scientific ideas
were gaining traction.

Asimov has a few rants against Frankenstein stories, and most of the original
I Robot stories are an attempt at an antidote. Worth actually reading if you
want something different. He had to work really hard to make something
different, suggesting the reason so many authors keep repeating the same
stories about evil robots might be more just because they are lazy rather than
tapping into something profound.

~~~
repsilat
> _Frankenstein stories_

Funnily enough, this idea -- the meme of "Frankenstein" being about the perils
of science or technology -- is totally at odds with the book itself. Popular
culture has obviously not had much contact with the original text.

In the book, Frankenstein's monster was the good guy -- he was clever,
sensitive and persecuted for his humanity. The lesson of the book was about
the judgemental inhumanity of society, not the danger of progress.

It warns against the fear of the unknown -- the opposite of the popular
understanding. It's nothing at all like Terminator.

~~~
darren_
> In the book, Frankenstein's monster was the good guy -- he was clever,
> sensitive and persecuted for his humanity

Er, no he wasn't (the good guy. he was clever etc). He wasn't a villain, per
se, but he spends most of the book stalking and threatening Frankenstein so
that he'll make a wife for him, and then proceeds to murder Frankenstein's
beloved when he doesn't (after, you know, killing a bunch of other people).

I'll grant that the monster had a genuine grievance, but he's in no way the
good guy. And he's not persecuted for his humanity, either, he's quite
literally persecuted for his obvious inhumanity - the whole sequence where he
meets the family with the blind grandfather (father?) is explicitly about
that.

It's also quite a lot like terminator insofar as there's a superhuman
unstoppable obsessed force that will never stop chasing you.

------
throaway030818
>Followers of Shinto, unlike Judeo-Christian monotheists and _the Greeks_
before them, do not believe that humans are particularly “special.” Instead,
there are spirits in everything, [...]

"Empedocles [says that the soul] is composed of all the elements and that each
of them actually is a soul [...]" (Aristotle, _De Anima_ , 404b11)

"All things are full of gods." (Thales. From Aristotle, _De Anima_ , 411a)

"Now consider all the stars and the moon and the years and the months and all
the seasons: what can we do except repeat the same story? A soul or
souls...have been shown to be the cause of all these phenomena, and whether it
is by their living presence in matter...or by some other means, we shall
insist that these souls are gods. Can anybody admit all this and still put up
with people who deny that 'everything is full of gods'?" (Plato, _Laws_ ,
899b)

"Animals and plants come into being in earth and in liquid because there is
water in earth, and pneuma in water, and in all pneuma is vital heat, so that
in a sense all things are full of soul [...]" (Aristotle, _Generation of
Animals_ , 762a18-20)

~~~
woodandsteel
In Western culture, the animism in Greek philosophy and religion was
eliminated as pagan by Christianity.

~~~
hutzlibu
Mostly, yes. But some of it survived underground and in christian mystics.

------
aylmao
Focusing primarily on Japan vs the US, I'd argue there's two other factors
that might be as big: economics and individualism.

\- Japan process of modernization much more recently and revolved more around
technology companies. In the US, it happened earlier, and around other
industries: it could be the case the admiration for technology has died out
more. Also, Japan is an island, so self-sustainability is difficult-- robots
not only help but will probably become necessary as the population ages. In
the US, robots are associated with job loss.

\- Individualism and the concept of free will has a higher priority in the US.
Americans are obsessed with choice and it permeates thought: from fast-food
restaurants with with "make your own" takes, to the autonomy states have, to
the whole of the "American Dream". "Free will" is so revered that the idea of
an entity without it is probably more foreign.

~~~
majormajor
> Japan process of modernization much more recently and revolved more around
> technology companies. In the US, it happened earlier, and around other
> industries: it could be the case the admiration for technology has died out
> more.

I'd argue there's a subtler reading here. What makes a "technology company"
changes over time.

Railroad companies were very much technology companies. Consider
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_in_the_Garden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_in_the_Garden)
: "The title of the book refers to a trope in American literature representing
the interruption of pastoral scenery by technology due to the
industrialization of America during the 19th and 20th century." We don't
consider railroads to be tech anymore, but they absolutely were at the time.

Later on, cable companies were technology companies. Hugely innovative and
disruptive to the existing TV market, yet forty years later they're already
has-been dinosaurs.

So I would definitely agree with the idea that the US has seen this cycle a
few times, and has done the enchanted->cynical cycle a few times.

~~~
jpindar
It makes me sad that "technology" went from rockets and robots and lasers...
to web pages.

------
jpatokal
"We Japanese" \-- that's the key phrase that indicates this is the latest in a
long line of _Nihonjinron_ (Japanese people theories), about how 110m people
all share an ineffable characteristic that makes them oh so very different
from the rest of the world. I really didn't expect this from Joi Ito though...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihonjinron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihonjinron)

~~~
gerdesj
... and not a particularly good one either:

 _Followers of Shinto, unlike Judeo-Christian monotheists and the Greeks
before them_ That's a funny way to divide up the world into us and them. It
looks more like us == Japan and them == US. The writer seems to miss out the
Roman influence that might traditionally be shoehorned into the "western" God
Squad history. Not to mention a dalliance with dollops of assorted "pagan"
traditions and mythology.

To be fair, I consider this sort of thing as a form of national pride which
should be respected when listened to but needs careful consideration. Bear in
mind I come from the country that can play "Land of Hope and Glory" or
"Jerusalem" without flinching.

~~~
empath75
Not to mention the Greek influence on Buddhism and vice versa. They were
entirely isolated from each other.

------
pitaj
I'm trying to find statistics in the article but I'm having trouble. Does the
article give any evidence that Westerners actually _do_ fear robots more than
the Japanese do?

~~~
nubbins
No, and I’m pretty sure the article fails to make its point. Even if
westerners did fear robots more this is the kind of vague “because its their
culture” argument you are taught not to make in Anthro 101. There are almost
always more proximate causes for what we label “culture”.

------
mjevans
Fearing oppression is not a bad thing and I strongly believe that we must be
careful to recognize intelligent life in many forms and afford all such life
equal terms* (where possible).

Science fiction writers and probably more academic thinkers have probed at how
compatible 'alien' life is with existing life. The ethical and practical
balancing acts and ability for different forms of life to peacefully co-exist
(or at least recognize that it isn't possible and amicably remain outside of
the best environments for other life).

I believe there would be less to fear if it were more clear that everyone of
all types of 'being someone' had equal standing and a place that they enjoyed
being within society.

------
internet_user
I am an American, and I do not fear my Roomba.

~~~
gerdesj
I'm a Brit. I grew up watching Doctor Who (Tom Baker and on). It never
occurred to me as a child that Daleks can't climb stairs. Besides the Cybermen
have legs and are pretty unpleasant as well.

One evening, you'll leave your Roomba happily running around in the living
room, downstairs, and wake up to it bumping into a leg on your bed ...
upstairs. I'll fear your Roomba for you: I've seen what happened to Skaros.

------
nice_byte
I feel the need to say that (spoiler warning) everyone who watched Neon
Genesis Evangelion knows that Evas are, in fact, not robots.

------
tylerjwilk00
I think a big factor in the attitude differences between Western and Eastern
societies comes from the chronological order of industrialization.

The West were the fore runners of industrialization and seen first hand the
bad (old guard job loss, environmental impact, deadly accidents). Of course
the price paid by the bad paved the way for the positive (economic supremacy).

The economic positive from technological progress is far more apparent from
the outside (East) looking in. The (West) memory of the early years and
negatives creeped into the culture. While the East mostly noticed the shiny
shores of economic progress and relatively recently.

None of this is to say that the East is not having their own moment of the
perils technological industrialization.

Perhaps the East's view of technology will become less idealised in the
future.

------
rm_-rf_slash
This article is a little too high minded and academic to take seriously. Non-
tech people don’t usually think about robotic rights or AI slavery unless
they’ve been watching a dystopian Sci-fi film recently. Here’s my two American
cents:

In the United States, if you’re poor, society says it’s your fault and you’re
on your own. If you can’t get a leg up on the economic ladder because the
burger-flipping jobs were replaced by robots, you’d have every right to fear
them.

I can’t speak for Japan but it is my understanding that society is more group-
oriented there, and social spending and government priorities appear to
reflect that. So even if a robot takes your job, you may have a better chance
at making a decent living some other way than you might in the West.

~~~
darpa_escapee
> robotic rights or AI slavery

These are popsci topics, they're touched upon all of the time in fiction and
I'd hardly say they're too academic of topics to approach in such an article.

------
faragon
Well, maybe westerns not exposed to Asimov's novels directly nor indirectly.
Anyway, in such a globalized world, I'm, not sure how right could be that:
E.g. Japanese anime is very popular in Europe and America.

------
mindslight
There is a lot of wisdom in this article, but its paradigm has an overt blind
spot regarding "robots" [0] that are able to completely dominate humans and
even society.

I'm not worried that an "enslaved" AI underclass is going to rebel and
"overthrow me" [1]. I'm immediately concerned about this AI "underclass"
controlling me _at the behest of other humans_.

In the long term I _am_ worried about Homo Sapiens being obsoleted by another
organism, _because I am a Homo Sapien_. Kindness is a charity afforded to the
dominant life form, one which I recommend everybody partake in whenever they
can (why I started off saying there's a lot of wisdom in the article). But
kindness does not extrapolate to capitulation where my very existence is
threatened.

From a Western-individualist viewpoint, I'd counter that Japan is more
accepting of AI as it fits right in with a top-down structured society and a
shared cultural trust that the people (/systems) "above oneself" are
purposeful and not malevolent [2].

[0] Even talking in terms of "robots" is misleading, as what we're really
talking about is AI.

[1] and referencing the USian Original Sin won't make me shy away and bend the
knee.

[2] Sorry for the laid-bare flame bait. I do not have the luxury of an editor
to massage my comment to couch cultural stereotypes in the appropriate amount
of beating around the bush and self-flagellation.

------
xtiansimon
Japanese society has been described as a homogeneous society--lacking,
suspicious, distrustful of difference. Whats more, there is interesting
research on social psycholgy of Wheat People vs. Rice People [1]:

"[Rice People] are more likely to understand themselves as interwoven with
other people — as interdependent, not independent. In such social worlds, your
goal is to fit in and adjust yourself to others, not to stand out."

With this social distinction in mind I am of a mind to think Japanese
society's fear response to robots is a dialog or binary opposition. Humans who
act like robots vs robots who act like humans.

Personally, I'm not fearful of robots who act human. I'm fearful of robot
actors shaping human society in their image while being controled by a new
class of technological oligarchs. Humans dominating humans through robot
proxy.

The truest statement in this Wired article occurs at the start:

"The Western concept of “humanity” is limited, and I think it’s time to
seriously question whether we have the right to exploit the environment,
animals, tools, or robots simply because we’re human and they are not."

The author _sets us up_ with this self-recflection of human hubris, and then
launches into a love letter of Japanese social acceptance of a nostalgic
cartoon character Astroboy.

Fooey!

[1]: [https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/opinion/why-are-some-
cult...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/opinion/why-are-some-cultures-
more-individualistic-than-others.html)

------
ggregoire
Japanese would be scared too if they watched what Boston Dynamics is working
on.

------
titanix2
The whole post looks like written by a Japanese-American trying to fuse
nationalist ideas (some superiority of Japan over the Western world) with neo-
marxist theory ("oppressed" machines). For example "The Western concept of
“humanity” is limited" is totally ironical when we talk about a culture that
have categories such as non-human (heta), burakumin, kitsune-mochi, zainichi
(Korean) that are still discriminated a lot on a day to day basis. I have no
time (nor willingness) to deconstruct everything, but the only decent idea to
keep is indeed the one in the title: Japan fear way less technology. The same
apply about AI, not just robot.

------
neuralRiot
Probably the reasons are not that deep. In the "western" (USA?) the aspiration
for any manufacturer is to secure a defense contract so any "robot" is seen as
a potential weapon, that is more evident from the cold war onwards. Now we're
seeing that it was not far from truth, any new technology is aimed to
surveillance and security.

------
kiriakasis
> Followers of Shinto, unlike Judeo-Christian monotheists and the Greeks
> before them, do not believe that humans are particularly “special.” Instead,
> there are spirits in everything, rather like the Force in Star Wars. Nature
> doesn’t belong to us, we belong to Nature, and spirits live in everything,
> including rocks, tools, homes, and even empty spaces.

To me this looks like the most important paragraph. The west (and I believe
also China, India, Russia, and arab countries) do lack a vision of different
being coexisting. Eventually we (and based on some popular light novel for
boys, also china) have a vision of a Natural World in balance and Humans
acting (either positively or negatively) on this balance.

This does not mean that we would hate robots or even aliens, just that we
would (at a superficial level) need to shoehorn them into being either humans
or not.

------
hevi_jos
As others have noted, the Japanese have their fair share of criminality and
violence against other groups of people on more recent times than slavery in
the US.

About the damage to the environment, here the Japanese also have their own
share.

If "feeling all one with the environment" includes fishing salmon in deep
waters until they had been almost extincted, or whales or dolphins' slaughter
on the beach, Japanese does not look special over any other groups in the
world.

From my point of view, the difference in perception about robots is that they
need them: they are getting old and someone or something must do the jobs.

In places like India there is so much people that robots become a real threat
against people's jobs. In Japan if they do not use them, they will be
dissapear as a nation.

------
Kagerjay
Whats interesting as well is that Japanese culture is very traditonal. The
cultural mindset to not adopt technology was there in the past. One example
that comes to mind is Japanese houdewives and dishwashers.

The reason for this is they take great pride in their housewife role, and
dishwashers take away that.

This might no longer be true but according to articles Ive read it was from
year 2000 to 2012 when i first heard about it.

Meanwhile in America this stigma never was as prevalent as in Japan during the
same timeframe

------
Florin_Andrei
Is there any consciousness in that thing? Are the lights on in there?

If yes, then the robot should be treated according to how conscious it is.

If no, it's a toaster, throw it on the garbage heap when not needed anymore.

"How much consciousness is in there" is the right question to ask in many
situations involving difficult decisions, such as robot rights, animal rights,
abortion, capital punishment, etc. Unfortunately, it is also one of the most
difficult questions you could possibly ask.

------
ddmma
Technophobia at breakfast, your milk and cereals are processed by thousands of
machines already similar to the one you hold in your hand right now

------
swerveonem
Westerners, I think that is an overly broad class.

------
CM30
Hmm, not sure I agree with the logic here. Firstly, slavery is not exactly
something that's rare outside of 'Western' civilisation and (unfortunately)
dates back to the near beginning of human society, with examples in basically
every culture under the sun. If this 'fear of robots' really was connected to
slavery, you'd expect that to be a theme across Africa, South America and the
Middle East as much as it is against 'Western' societies. Heck, you'd expect
themes of robot uprisings and being overthrown by their creations to be common
in all kinds of deeply unequal societies if that's where the idea originated
from. Where are all the Terminator esque franchises coming from South Africa
or Saudi Arabia or what not?

I also question whether the following is accurate as well:

1\. Whether Western works are more likely to have killer robots/robot
uprisings than Japanese ones.

2\. Whether Western society in general really shows more fear of robots.

3\. Whether other societies are more likely to see themselves as 'part' of
nature rather than something beyond it.

For the former, well there are quite a few works made in Japan with the plot
revolving around killer robots or what not, just as there are quite a few
works made in 'Western' societies featuring heroic or everyday robots. How
many examples would we need to make a judgement one way or the other? If
you're going on examples you know, well perhaps Japanese robot stories have
robots turn evil more because they're 'hacked' than because they turn against
humanity of their own accord. I mean, that's the setup for basically every
Mega Man game. Plus the setup for last year's The Legend of Zelda Breath of
the Wild.

Either way, the concepts aren't exactly exclusive to one or another, as these
pages show:

[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TurnedAgainstThe...](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TurnedAgainstTheirMasters)

[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RobotWar](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RobotWar)

It's also questionable whether the portrayals of robots in culture (or the
sensationalist journalism seen online) really means that one society fears
robots and intelligent machines more than another. Perhaps the general concept
is just kind of interesting/entertaining, in the same sense as a medieval
fantasy story involving a hero taking down some demonic monster is.

And the latter... well I'm not convinced by that either. Seems like a cliche
you see in all kinds of media about how 'closer to nature' less developed
tribes are or what not. Either way, not convinced by this article at all.

~~~
mr_toad
The fictional theme of a robot uprising predates the first real-world robots.
In fact, we get the name from that fiction, and the name robot literally means
slave.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R).

And there are plenty of examples of creatures turning against their masters in
othe cultures; genies, golems and zombies are a few examples.

~~~
CM30
That's a good point. The theme of creatures turning against their masters long
predates robots, and is a pretty common theme when you've got a work about
artificial life being created.

------
fhood
"The West, the professor contended, has a problem with the idea of things
having spirits and feels that anthropomorphism, the attribution of human-like
attributes to things or animals, is childish, primitive, or even bad. He
argued that the Luddites who smashed the automated looms that were eliminating
their jobs in the 19th century were an example of that, and for contrast he
showed an image of a Japanese robot in a factory wearing a cap, having a name
and being treated like a colleague rather than a creepy enemy."

I'm sorry, but that is a stupid statement. First, westerners have no issue
with anthropomorphizing (it's a word if I want it to be) inanimate objects. We
do it all the damn time. My roomba is named Lenny (hard working, but not too
bright).

Second, how on earth is this a valid comparison? "Just look at the facts guys!
The luddites destroyed machines that in one fell swoop eliminated the
livelihood of a significant portion of people, and this robot has a hat!"

~~~
kdl20kxkrk
That’s one anecdote

There’s a real history to the argument in the article

Numerous scholars have advocated that to remain objective one must avoid
putting human traits on objects of study

I think it stems from Abrahimic traditions, where God made us and none of us
are to presume to be as powerful. Animals and objects are treated as mere
things. Look at hardliners destroying art that has human form. The general
story being God made us and we are inferior and must not resort to offending
him with crude reproductions, lest he smite us for thinking we can do better.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>"and must not resort to offending him with crude reproductions" //

It's not about reproductions (which are clearly impossible), but about images
and sycophantic replacements.

The imagery thing leads to a specific materialism; the replacement leads to us
designing a god to reflect and applaud our ethical failings.

Like turning to porn and eschewing one's duty to one's wife; or choosing an
inanimate character as one's wife and imbuing her with a fetish for your own
failings "I love your flab, the way you stink of stale beer and sweat really
turns me on".

FWIW in Abramic tradition animals are creatures made by God that humans are
entrusted to care for, and yes use as food; custodians of creation.

Your presentation looks like an inference of the created order based on
looking at people's actions. Like watching traffic to find what the traffic
laws are; that's a flawed methodology.

------
vitoc
At first glance, I thought the title might be better with the use of "but" in
place of "and", as in "Why Westerners Fear Robots but the Japanese Do Not"...

------
PhasmaFelis
Some of the earliest homegrown Japanese sci-fi prominently featured heroic,
humanlike robots. I wonder to what extent that was a symptom of existing
attitudes vs. a cause of later ones.

~~~
krapp
> I wonder to what extent that was a symptom of existing attitudes vs. a cause
> of later ones.

Very likely, given that Astro Boy started soon after the end of World War 2. I
can imagine that themes of using technology for good rather than harm were
appealing to a country that had just seen what harm technology could do first
hand.

------
ddmma
Technofobia at breakfast, your milk and cereals are processed by thousands of
machines already similar to the one you hold in your hand right now

------
wnsire
This article was absolutely awful to read.

The reason "Westerners" fear Robots and Japanese do not is definitely cultural
, but not in the same way.

Mostly for "Westerner" , it's related to the fear of losing their Job.

Per say , just look at Autonomous Car. Truck driver is of the most occupied
job in the US and potentially it's one of the most replaceable by using AI and
Robotics.

That's just the tip of the iceberg , what about McDonalds ? Domino's ? Both
with their thousands of cashier , delivery guys and cooks ?

That's what people fear , not this gimmick of "Terminator" based on some BS
"Christian" culture.

On top of that , when you know the American culture is almost entirely based
on "Fast Money" for venture capitals it raise some concerns about the security
and the effectiveness of those robots. Especially seeing how much accidents
have happened with "Semi Autonomous" cars or the horrible accident that killed
a pedestrian at full speed by Uber[0].

Most importantly , Japan is a declining country from a demographic
perspective. Robots are needed for them to survive and stay productive and
occupy jobs that very little people would accept to do these days in their
culture.

This demographic decline is not happening in "Western Civilization" due to
important amount of immigration. Either of "Talents" ( Engineers , Doctors...)
or Students , who later stay in the country and eventually create a family
there. Ultimately having for effect to maintain the demography of "Western
Civilization", Japan claimed many times to be hostile to this form of growth ,
therefore the need for robot and the mindset of not being "scared" by robots
as they are key for both their economy and their culture .

Ultimately making those robots a sign a of "hope" and not a "threat".

[0][https://www.economist.com/the-economist-
explains/2018/05/29/...](https://www.economist.com/the-economist-
explains/2018/05/29/why-ubers-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian)

------
mastahsplintah
Robots comin for you

