
ZeroNet: Decentralized websites using Bitcoin crypto and the BitTorrent network - csantini
https://zeronet.io/
======
eberkund
Does anyone else see it as an issue that the decentralized website solution to
databases is to create a copy of a SQLite database on every user's machine?

~~~
brad0
I agree. This is the biggest technological issue for zeronet imo.

Every time there's a change to the db you need to download a whole new copy
afaik.

Ideally you'd use a log based store. To do this you need to fundamentally
change your idea for how a website works.

With a distributed log store chances are you won't have the same data as
another person.

~~~
lez
Just a minor correction: if you provide a stable API for querying the
database, you can ignore the technological details on the caller side, the
website.

~~~
thatgerhard
WHat's stopping governments to just kill access to the api?

~~~
staticvar
See Dat / Beaker Browser for Desktop / Bunsen Browser for Android. Dat hosted
websites can be distributed online or offline. A write up on how that works:
[https://github.com/bunsenbrowser/bunsen#millions-of-
people-u...](https://github.com/bunsenbrowser/bunsen#millions-of-people-use-
the-offline-web-but-cannot-trust-its-content-bunsen-and-dat-solve-this)

[https://docs.datproject.org/faq](https://docs.datproject.org/faq) \-
[https://beakerbrowser.com/](https://beakerbrowser.com/) \-
[https://github.com/bunsenbrowser/bunsen](https://github.com/bunsenbrowser/bunsen)

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code-is-code
I'm following the developement of zeronet for the past 3 years. I'm not
convinced that it is the final solution to the decentralized internet. A main
thing that bothers me is the insane lookup-time for site with a low
distribution. The same problem occurs with ipfs btw. It takes up to one minute
to find a the correct node when only one node hast the content-hash.

~~~
brad0
I need to read the IPFS paper but surely there's some kind of DHT to find
data?

~~~
tree_of_item
Right, and finding rare content in that DHT is going to take a while.

~~~
kordlessagain
Finding "interesting" content would be a more accurate description of the
problem.

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j_s
Show HN: TorrentPeek – Distributed search engines using BitTorrent and SQLite
|
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14130280](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14130280)
(Apr 2017, 33 comments)

 _By putting an SQLite database file (.db) inside a torrent, we can query its
content -- by prioritizing pieces based on the SQL query -- and quickly peek
at the content of the database without downloading it entirely._

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SeriousM
Is the content I would host visible to me? How could I avoid to host child
pornography? I'm eligible for hosting such a content im not aware of? That's
the questions I would like to get answered.

~~~
exadeci
Yes, you host only the pieces that you've downloaded on a specific website and
you can delete them if you want.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
They say

 _" You start serving sites as soon as you visit them"_

I'm not comfortable with that at all. Distributing content has very different
legal implications than just viewing it, especially when it comes to pirated
content.

~~~
krixano
But there's also optional files, which are not downloaded when you visit the
site, only when you request the files. These are used for images, videos, etc.
Many sites use these now, especially the ones that have porn or illegal
content. If you visit a site and find that you don't want it on your hard
drive, you can simply delete it.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
_> If you visit a site and find that you don't want it on your hard drive, you
can simply delete it._

But that's only after I have already started serving that content to others,
is it not?

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mtgx
In related news, another similar technology (Blockstack):

[http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-
kong/economy/article/2113521/n...](http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-
kong/economy/article/2113521/new-internet-looks-keep-user-data-away-tech-
giants-and-bypass)

[https://blockstack.org/](https://blockstack.org/)

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akerro
Last time I used that project I was trying to migrate my wordpress to zeroNet
and I failed because my wp-content/images is over 3Gb and ZeroNet website is
(was?) limited to 100Mb. Has this changed, are they tools that migrate images
to separate addresses and link them correctly in html files?

~~~
mtgx
Shouldn't they combine it with IPFS for static content storage then? Or does
IPFS have the same limitation?

~~~
lgierth
There's no such limitation in IPFS -- currently the largest known dataset is
about 3.8 TB, a mirror of [https://cdn.media.ccc.de](https://cdn.media.ccc.de)

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TekMol
Interest in decentralized web solutions seem to be on the rise. I wonder why
and if they have any real world benefits for me as a publisher?

All the stated benefits are non-issues for me:

* Uncensored

I never been censored.

* No hosting costs

I serve hundreds of thousands of users per month for something like $20.

* Always accessible

Just like hosting costs, my downtime is negligible.

~~~
insomniacity
> I never been censored

Have you never self-censored?

~~~
ComputerGuru
That would be a benefit to him as a publisher you are proposing he give up, in
that context.

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jxs41u
If you are interested in this, you might be interested in Archain
([https://www.archain.org/](https://www.archain.org/)) - a different solution
to a decentralised sister internet.

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NoB4Mouth
I can bet my 0.1000 bitcoins that news headlines will pop up soon as follows:
"China bans ZeroNet" :) Wait & see...

~~~
627467
I don't know whether it is banned there or not, but when you join ZeroMe
(zeronet's decentralized twitter) you quickly realized how it's populated with
chinese sites and profiles

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_pdp_
I believe it is 100% feasible to create a decentralised, secure network for
static content - i.e. static sites. Combined with powerful (and secure)
client-side APIs we are on a good track to success. I am not sure what this is
but I am sure going to give it a try.

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kodablah
Curious about using Tor for anonymity. Tor explicitly asks users not to use it
for bittorrent for many reasons. So if I have a ZeroNet site serving a nice
big video over bittorrent, does my visitors' using Tor for anonymity go
against their best practices?

~~~
lkjhgfdsa57
ZeroNet doesn't use bittorrent for file transfers. The bittorrent network is
only used for the DHT to map site addresses to IP addresses (or TOR hidden
service names).

File transfer is done over a service that ZeroNet runs on a particular port
with its own protocol.

~~~
kodablah
Sorry I have not investigated deeper myself, but does this service still
preserve sender/receiver anonymity? A link about it would be just fine,
thanks.

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thedonaldo
DHTs are not fast (or secure, but that’s another story).

[https://thecedrus.com/tag/lovequotes](https://thecedrus.com/tag/lovequotes)

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intrasight
A distributed web site using a blockchain is what I'd proposed as a solution
the the DCMA ad block debacle.

[https://blog.adguard.com/en/ad-blocking-is-under-
attack/](https://blog.adguard.com/en/ad-blocking-is-under-attack/)

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koalalorenzo
What happened to IPFS and Filecoin?

~~~
sova
IPFS still looking very strong

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harshgupta
How do you account for content unavailability when a node shuts down/ runs
slow?

~~~
lkjhgfdsa57
All sites that viewed an existing site contain a copy of it and share the
data. There is a "thundering herd" problem of multiple requesters for the site
initially being distributed but once that's done then multiple nodes will have
it and can seed it. The original site shutting down is no problem at that
point.

IPFS shares the same problem and knowing when it's safe to shut down a node in
both IPFS and ZeroNet is difficult.

Freenet solves this by having an insert of data sent directly to peers
immediately. The site isn't stored on the inserting node. Once the insert is
done it's safe to close the node and the content is still available.

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thriftwy
I like how it's an eye candy.

I guess there's a lot of opaquenets already, and it's not the feature richest,
but this one you can have running in under five minutes.

I was actually using it for some torrents but currently ZeroTV is down :(

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lucaspottersky
oh man, i hate those software that automatically try to guess the user
language! even more annoying when it chooses the wrong language for you. in my
case PT (Portugal) instead of PT-BR.

argh.

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0simber
You should be investing in Namecoin if you believe in a decentralized web
structure.

------
bfrog
This is very similar to maidsafe. Except maidsafe pays you for hosting. Does
this?

~~~
lkjhgfdsa57
ZeroNet does not pay you for hosting. Maidsafe is more file storage, ZeroNet
is more about distributed site sharing. ZeroNet could be implemented on top of
Maidsafe but not vice versa. There's also the fact that ZeroNet works today,
has been working for a year or two, whereas Maidsafe is still in test stages.

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earlybike
Why does ZeroNet not host their website on ZeroNet and uses a .bit domain?

~~~
roywiggins
Downloading the client for the first time would be a tad inconvenient...

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newsburn
How is this different than FreeNet?

~~~
lkjhgfdsa57
FreeNet is a distributed key/value store. It can be used to store files by
storing the contents of the file under a key that is the hash of the file
content. Generally you operate on Freenet at the level of keys and values.

ZeroNet operates at the level of sites. Sites contain multiple files. Seeding
of data happens at the site level.

You could implement ZeroNet on top of Freenet but implementing Freenet on top
of ZeroNet wouldn't make much sense.

When inserting new data, Freenet pushes data out to nodes. ZeroNet pulls data
from requestors. With Zeronet you can't disconnect your node until other nodes
have a complete copy if you want the data to remain available. It is difficult
to tell when it is safe to do this. With Freenet the data isn't stored on your
own node, it is pushed out to other nodes when first inserting. When the
insert completes you know you can safely turn off your node. The data remains
available.

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freech
Cool.

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archarios
Is anyone else concerned that this will enable hate groups to more easily
collaborate and grow?

~~~
NathanCH
I'm much more concerned about hate groups being silenced.

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vandamn
I think substratum has a better approach:
[https://substratum.net/technology/](https://substratum.net/technology/)

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earlybike
All these blockchain/decentralized projects remind me of my childhood.
Everytime there was a new technology I built cool things just for the sake of
doing something with this shiny new tech without actually having any real-
world use case.

~~~
omnimus
I think it has very real real-world usecase. The question is if it is good
solution.

