
An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study - mrrazz
http://news.mit.edu/2019/explain-infections-fever-reduce-autism-1218
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openasocket
Are mice considered an effective model for autism? My understanding is we
still don't know the exact mechanism of action of autism. Heck, there could be
many different mechanisms, and we're lumping people with different underlying
conditions into a single category because the symptoms line up. So our model
of autism is entirely based on behavior. But if the mechanism of action in
these mice is different from humans, you can't make any real predictions about
how to treat/manage it.

~~~
corodra
"Although findings in mice do not always translate into human treatments, the
study may help to guide the development of strategies that could help..."

Pulled right from the article. Studies in mice are simply a way to point in
the, hopefully, "right" direction without having to shoot in the dark with
human test subjects needlessly.

~~~
bsdz
A mouse model for human autism is contrived at best.

The cynic in me feels that some researchers are running out of ideas. The only
experimental apparatus are poor knockout mice.

Arguably an analogy is trying to fix a compiled binary with a hex editor and
replacing all your 0x11s with 0x0a. Then claiming the segfault is a good model
of how another binary crashes (due to a null pointer exception or whatever
really).

~~~
corodra
Oh my shit, they don't claim to have an answer. They have a direction. Not an
answer. There's a very large difference. The entire language in this is
extremely aware and careful that they don't have a cure. Quit acting like this
is a CNN article saying "Scientists cured all disease because of a 2 person
study". They have some survey based evidence that it happens in humans too.
With a potential replication in mice, they feel confident it's an avenue worth
pursuing. No one is holding their breath. It's an interesting study, with
interesting line of evidence thought that they think is worth seeing if
completely true. That's it, don't make it out to more than that. They share
this information so other people can be enlightened to the idea and with
professionals who are actually apart of the field help poke actual holes in
the issues or offer other ideas to help guide it further. Not just "Ugh, you
used mice, like, it's totally not gonna work man because it's like this one
programming bug I once had."

~~~
thebean11
> They have a direction.

Sure, the question is whether that direction significantly better than a
randomly selected direction

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mannewalis
Makes sense, from an evolutionary standpoint, infections that resulted in more
social behavior are more likely to spread and survive.

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superkuh
Inflammation and temperature rise effect increase energy needed to propagate
an action potential down an axon. Many anxiolytics also downregulate
inhibitory neuronal firing (ie, GABA agonists (alcohol), GABA allosteric
agonists (benzodiazpines), etc).

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hobbio
> The reason for that, the researchers found, is that in these mice [with
> certain genes missing and whose mother didn't have inflammation while
> pregnant], inflammation did not stimulate IL-17a production.

What I wonder if baseline mice produce IL-17a in response to inflammation?

My guess would be no. I would also wonder if some low to moderate infection in
mothers can spare the offspring from autism, but still prime IL production?

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loa_in_
There is also at least one study showing (at least) flu infection compelling
humans to be more sociable and outgoing, but it was (now that I think of it)
conducted by comparing self reported social interaction counts before and
after a flu vaccine containing (of course) flu virions.

See references in this article, because I have trouble copying them on mobile.

[https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/darwins-
subterrane...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/darwins-subterranean-
world/201801/does-the-flu-trick-people-being-sociable)

~~~
TheFiend7
I mean, I guess my question is could this be apart of the virus or bacteria's
attack vector? Isn't it in the best interest of viruses and bacteria that the
host becomes more sociable and therefore improves infection rate.

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swebs
And vaccines prevent infections.

So in other words...

:P

~~~
loriverkutya
They are not preventing the infection itself, they are allowing your immune
system to kill the infection before it develops into the full blown disease.

(No it is not funny, because people and children dying because of this
bullshit)

~~~
umvi
I thought vaccines just contained antigens which are essentially just the
receptors; i.e. it's impossible to actually get sick from a vaccine since the
actual bacteria/virus is missing. IANAB though, I'm sure there are many kinds
of vaccines prepared using many different methods.

Also, I thought the joke was funny; I highly doubt there are any genuine anti-
vaxxers in HN comments.

~~~
milankragujevic
It depends on the type, some (not quite a small number) of vaccines contain an
attenuated version of the virus. Some are available in multiple forms, like
Salk and Sabin polio vaccines.

However, the risk of getting sick from the vaccine is small compared to the
risk of getting sick without the vaccine. When the risk levels get close to
equal, the vaccine type is changed to the less-risky but less-effective type.

Attenuated virus vaccines are usually more effective than inactive virus ones.

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TazeTSchnitzel
in mice

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spazx
Autism is characterized by autistic behavior. You cannot separate autistic
behavior from an autistic person, it is simply their nature. These "mouse
models" are inaccurate, as they're based on behavioral observations in the
mice and likening them to human behavior. We don't really know how autism
works and why, and we haven't discovered actual autistic mice. In other words,
it's mostly extrapolation.

Anything can "reduce autism symptoms" that can make a neurotypical person
unable to behave normally. Autistic behavior IS the normal for autistic
people. Heavy sedatives, just like being very sick, can "reduce autism
symptoms" since the person would be too tired to exhibit any behaviors at all.

"Look, he's not flapping and pacing! His autism must be cured!" No, you dolt,
he's exhausted and miserable from being sick.

Leave autistic people alone and let them be themselves. Seriously, I can't
believe some people would rather let their kid die of polio than believe they
could be autistic. If you think having an autistic child is that terrible, you
probably shouldn't have kids.

~~~
detritus
Having had a child this year, my greatest fear was that it might be profoundly
autistic. I can't begin to imagine what it must be like to be stuck with a
physiologically-broken child, for life, that is incapable of empathy or love
for its parent.

I appreciate that's the sort of thing that happens at the extreme ends of the
spectrum and not at all representative of many high-functioning autists, but I
don't think it's terrible to have that as a fear.

~~~
r00fus
(I'm a parent of a kid on the spectrum)

While the fear is natural, there are tons of other childhood conditions that
are, in fact, worse than autism.

Would you decline vaccines for yourself or your child because you fear they
might "get autism" (which has been debunked).

Edit: clarity

~~~
zensavona
No, because vaccines don't cause your child to "get autism"

~~~
r00fus
Thanks I clarified my comment.

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pvaldes
Autistic children are children, the same full irritating, exhuberant, noisy
and magnet for troubles in a small package than before, but with a plus of
cleverness, strange ways to do things, uncommon hobbies and extravaganza.

The idea that an ill children tired and with less energy than usual would
behave better is not a total surprise.

~~~
hobbio
They say when having fever, the mice communicate with peers better. When
children are under the weather, they don't seem to communicate better.

~~~
jkoudys
"I want bunny I want it bunny! I WANT IIIIIIT!" [gets bunny, immediately hurls
it across room] "I don't like it I don't want it! I don't like bunny waaaah!"
[3 seconds pass] "I want bunny!"

My daughter, every time she has a cold, which since daycare is almost always.

~~~
hobbio
My bad, you make me remember. When children were smaller, indeed they were
quite energetic up to until some quite high degree fever.

Now they are older, and fever starts to knock them out sooner. Fever
suppressants make them bouncy again still (so no rush to give them until
38.7-ish, as long as they drink well etc).

