
The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving - peter123
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/the-real-high-tech-immigrant-problem-theyre-leaving/
======
smg
I am working from India for the past 3 months instead of my San Francisco
office. Nearly every large IT company in India offers benefits at par with
Google. Yes I mean multiple food vendors. Food being served 6 times a day.

The salary of an IT professional in India easily puts him among the highest
wage earners in India (something similar to how Wall Street traders were a
couple of years ago). Chauffeur driven cars, cooks and daily house cleaning
services are all easily affordable.

The biggest question I have to ask myself is should I return to my studio in
SF.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_Food being served 6 times a day._

Breakfast, Second Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, Dinner and Supper?

I suppose this confirms the theory that IT workers are all hobbits.

~~~
earl
Says the dude named yummyfajitas -- that's a great username.

But seriously, that was my favorite bit of that movie:

Pippin: But what about breakfast?

Aragorn: You've already had it.

Pippin: We've had one, yes. But what about second breakfast?

[Aragorn stares at him, then walks off.]

Merry: Don't think he knows about second breakfast, Pip.

Pippin: What about elevensies? Luncheon? Afternoon tea? Dinner? Supper? He
knows about them, doesn't he?

Merry: I wouldn't count on it.

~~~
dmpayton
_But seriously, that was my favorite bit of that movie:_

Please read the books, they're far superior to the movies.

Edit: Downvotes, hmmm. Allow me to explain...

The LotR movie trilogy, while being excellent movies in and of themselves, do
not do the books justice. PJ's interpretation (and subsequent plot hacking)
left me wanting more, and not in a good way.

Admittedly, that may have more to do with the medium in which the storyline
was delivered. Cinema, while more visually appealing than the written word,
simply cannot offer the same depth that a book can.

I think it's safe to say that in most cases where books are translated to
movies, the book remains the better of the two.

Anyways, sorry for the offtopic thread.

~~~
andreyf
I'd love to hear your opinion on immigration and the intra-national tech
community, but LotR is way off topic.

------
geebee
This article is about the problems that happen when foreign nationals with
engineering backgrounds no longer want to live in the US. But it could just as
easily be about what happens when the US is no longer able to fill these
positions from its own population. And I suspect that there is a correlation
between the huge numbers of visas issued and the slow decline of interest
among Americans in these fields.

I know, it isn't entirely a zero sum game. But when I graduated with an MS in
Engineering from Berkeley, we definitely weren't pulling in the starting
salaries that the law and business students were earning - even the PhD
students weren't at that level, not even close. And guess what? The MBA and
Law programs had no problem attracting Americans, whereas Engineering had very
few.

This article does highlight a danger, but it doesn't really suggest one good
solution - encourage Americans into these fields, and this time, don't
undermine their careers.

~~~
ardit33
I think you are missing an important part. There is low barriers for your job
to be shipped abroad.

A doctor's job is hard to ship, especially the emergency ones (you still hear
about people going abroad for cosmetical work), and lawyers have barriers (you
have to pass the Bar, laws changing constantly by state etc.), therefore they
can command higher salaries.

But for software engineers, the barrier of job shipping is really low. My
company has a team in Argentina, doing decent work. If I was twice as
expensive as I was now, the company probably would have just hired all the
engineering there, and maybe one or two "architect" types in the US.

Eventually american engineers with less experience would have to lower their
salaries, to get into a level where the efficiencies that are gained by having
somebody with the same culture/understanding on site is worth the extra cost
that the average american programmer commands.

1\. Remember, you are competing in a global pool of talent. Doctors/lawyers
have an huge local advantage that engineers simply don't have.

2\. H-1B is an recent trend (late 90s trend). I doesn't explain the lack of
interest in engineering/math for american graduates. (see number 1. Even if
your salary was so high to spark interest, your job it would be outsourced
soon, or your company will go bust as so many did in 2001-2003).

3\. In the late 90s salaries were really high. It motivated the wrong kind of
people to get into school. I remember, a lot of "I am in CS for the money, not
b/c the passion" types in late 90s (when I started school, and the dot com was
all the rage. Within the year a lot of them were in a different major, b/c
they couldn't handle it. Information technology, or business being the
fallback majors of choice.

4\. Even until lately, salaries for engineers have been really good. CS is one
of the few majors where you can command 50-70k right after college, and where
by 25 you can easily be pulling 6 figs. (I was by 25).

While I agree, that H-1B should be used to bring really skilled people in (and
not used a simply a cost control school), eliminating it, is a sure path to
Detroit-ing Silicon Valley.

~~~
myutdtme
>While I agree, that H-1B should be used to bring really >skilled people in It
is becoming impossible to do academic collaborations with the US - you can't
send postdocs/professors to work on US telescopes, particle accelerators etc
because they can't get H1B visas. Initially this is great, other coutries part
fund the projects but only americans can work on them. the trouble is that the
next round of instruments won't be in the US, Cern was built in Switzerland
for this reason, ITER is in France.

~~~
geebee
That's terrible. Those researchers should be able to get visas easily.

However, I disagree with the notion that we should solve this problem by just
awarding more visas. Doesn't it strike you as strange (and genuinely horrible)
that universities can't get visas while outsourcing companies are gobbling up
these visas by the tens of thousands? Doesn't it strike you as strange that
Microsoft claims it can't bring in super high paid developers because we've
hit the visa cap, yet some of these visas have been going to firms that pay
the "critical worker that couldn't be found in the US" $12/hr? (sorry, no cite
on that, I heard it in an interview with Ron Hira, a professor of public
policy... I'll try to dig it up).

The H1B lobby loves the example you gave, because they get to claim that the
H1B detractors are "opposed to letting researchers into the US for innovative
collaborations." Uh, no. We've taken hundreds of thousands, maybe even over a
_million_ H1B workers into the US (the dept of labor doesn't keep exact
numbers). Maybe one of these visas could have gone to the researcher, rather
than some average dude who read the Oracle manual?

This program is in desperate need of a fix, no question about that. But to me,
fixing it by just removing the cap, or setting an extremely high cap, is
unacceptable. I don't need a fire hose to blow out my birthday candles.

------
nickpp
I left USA after being an H1B for 5 years with delay after delay in my GC
application. HARD decision. Hated leaving...

Went to my home country, created a software company with successful products.
Now a few dozen jobs are here instead of there and some million $$$ are
flowing into my country.

Still, I would move to the US and open an office if I'd have a legal, fast way
to get a residency there. Not likely though.

~~~
nebula
Are there any valid reasons as to why you would still want to move to the US?

~~~
nickpp
Don't laugh, but it's a kind of patriotism.

I love the country. It's beautiful. I like its philosophy. American values
resonate close to my values. In the years I lived there I grew to think of it
as my home much more than the country I was born in. I could see calling
myself American.

When I went there I was received well. I was helped. I made friends. Now I
think I can help in return. I would like to contribute, especially in a
downturn. I would buy a house, I would create jobs.

Now, I travel a lot (including in US) so I live all over the world. And
financially I'd have little to gain in States (no extra income, higher living
costs, higher taxation, higher business costs). So it'd be mostly an
idealistic gesture, a way for me to participate in building something larger
than myself and what I've already built. Something I truly believe in.

But I am not getting myself again in the Kafka's nightmare that US immigration
is. Waiting years for some bureaucrat to decide if your life will go on or
will be completely changed "just because". No thanks. I'd only consider
another country if I'd have a clear, legal and quick path to residency.
Otherwise... I'll only be a tourist.

~~~
code_devil
Did you look into the following two categories of GreenCard Visa's ?
(EB4/EB5)It seems you get a Visa in 9 months.

1\. Entreprenurs .... You start a business and hire 4-5 FT US employees 2\.
Investment .... Invest 500K in some Federal designated area.

~~~
tjmc
Just out of interest with #1 - what's to stop an immigrant from simply
"buying" themselves a visa by hiring 4 people at minimum wage for 9 months?
Even if you didn't make a cent of revenue, you could do still that for ~60K
right? Doesn't seem like a lot to obtain US citizenship.

~~~
ido
60k is a lot of money, especially for the people who have the most to gain
from a US citizenship (i.e. people from the 3rd world who are not
independently wealthy).

A Swede will not pay 60k because the US is, for the most part, not that much
(if at all) better than Sweden, and most Indians don't have that kind of
money.

------
Vargas
Hum... It is not that they (we) are leaving, it is more like they (we) are not
even going.

I'm a Spaniard, I have worked in five different countries in Europe and Latin
America. I'm currently settled in the U.K. I have worked as a consultant, as a
developer in a "one-product" company and now I´m working as an in-house
developer in a non-tech company.

It simply does not make sense to relocate to USA for me. I have had a couple
of offers to work in Boston or New York in the last few years and I turned
them down. Weak dollar versus euro means that I won´t be able to pay my euro
denominated mortgage while living in the U.S. I am free to work anywhere
within the European Union, and I have always been very welcomed in Spanish
speaking American countries while I would need some paperwork to work in the
U.S.

The political climate doesn't help either. I have never been in the U.S. and I
realize that T.V. is not necessarily correlated to real life, but every other
day you get news about some guy who was traveling to the U.S. for some
perfectly legitimate reason, with all their legal documents in good shape and
gets detained at the border for 30 hours, their families are not notified and
they are not allowed to drink, eat or sleep.

On the other hand, I personally know some people (about 15 persons) who travel
frequently from Europe to the U.S.,for both professional and personal reasons.
They have never had problems in the border. There is clearly a dissonance
between my "real-life" experience and my "media-induced" experience.
Nonetheless, if I had to travel there, I would be a bit scared... my mother
would definitely be very scared.

I really hope that things change. My wife is eager to spend a few years living
in the U.S. We won't be going for now... may be during Obama's second term (if
it happens) it would be economically feasible (strong dollar) and
professionally interesting for me. As anyone with a passion for our craft, I
have read countless histories about Silicon Valley, and I think the odds would
be better for my own (future) start-up in there rather than in Europe, where
bureaucracy and lack of funding make things more difficult.

~~~
anamax
> every other day you get news about some guy who

> On the other hand, I personally know some people (about 15 persons)

Not to defend the US Immigration service, but those samples aren't comparable
- one is orders of magnitude larger and less reliable.

~~~
sho
_"Not to defend the US Immigration service, but those samples aren't
comparable - one is orders of magnitude larger and less reliable."_

Not to defend the climate of fear generated by media scare stories, but it's
more complex than that - the problem isn't that every once in a while someone
screws up; the problem is that it can happen at all and they're not screw-ups,
it's policy.

Everyone knows someone with a story about some horrible entry into the US. The
fact that it happens at all, the idea that all "foreigners" are untrustworthy
terrorists-in-disguise to be treated with suspicion and contempt, slowly sinks
in. This is a very powerful antidote to the "land of the free" rhetoric, which
starts to seem like a myth in itself - one media illusion demolishing another,
if you will.

And it's just this, I don't know, malicious arrogance to the whole thing. From
the very beginning, to be treated in that way, and for such treatment to be
institutionalised and officially accepted, even encouraged, as the price to
pay for the privilege of being allowed to enter the country? After a while
anyone with any pride at all is forced to consider whether America is such a
shining utopia to be worth rolling the dice every time you dare to try and get
into the place. And as countries like India and China grow in wealth and
stature, the pride of their citizens rises too.

But it's not just the risk of drawing the short straw on the "your name
reminds us of something" list, every single visitor faces invasive biometric
ID procedures to be kept for god knows how long, shared with god knows who,
and used for god knows what purpose.

I am an Australian citizen from birth (a country which is a longtime ally of
the USA and actually the only country who has fought alongside her in every
war for a century), non religious, educated and of sufficient means. If I want
to enter the US I face being photographed and my fingerprints taken like a
common criminal. Jokes about convict ancestry aside - do you have any idea
what kind of message that sends?

Whatever the intention is, I understand it as meaning that foreigners are not
wanted in the USA, and I'm happy to oblige. You might think that sounds
ridiculous and childish, taking such an impersonal message personally and all
that, but think about it. Would you choose to visit a country that treats you
like that, all other things being equal, which they pretty much are?

~~~
anamax
> Everyone knows someone with a story about some horrible entry into the US.

Everyone knows someone who has a friend who knew the guy who tried to dry his
poodle in the microwave.

I'm not saying that Immigration and/or Homeland Security is great, but the
rumor-mongering is unjustified.

> the problem is that it can happen at all and they're not screw-ups, it's
> policy.

And you know this because....

> I am an Australian citizen from birth

Ah, Australia. I know a Stanford CS PhD student who was put through hell by
the Australian equivalent of US Immigration/Homeland Security because she
wanted to visit a guy who she met while he was in the US. They were concerned
that she might want to stay, contaminate the gene pool, or somesuch. (She's
pretty and white, so they weren't applying any sort of appearance standard.)

Really. I actually know her. And, you should have paid her to emmigrate
because she is seriously talented. And yes, she was seriously pissed.

Nevertheless, I don't get hysterical about it. I'm looking forward to diving
the Great Barrier Reef in a couple of years.

> If I want to enter the US I face being photographed and my fingerprints
> taken like a common criminal.

I don't know how things are in Australia, but we can't identify criminals and
the like without actually checking. (For some reason, they don't mention that
in their visa application.)

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't try?

~~~
sho
_"Everyone knows someone who has a friend who knew the guy who tried to dry
his poodle in the microwave."_

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not talking about some urban legend that gets
passed through 10 generations of "friends of friends", I'm saying that many
people have had bad experiences with US Immigration, and word gets around. I
personally know someone who now enters the US by land via Canada because of
his repeated horrendous experiences at the air border.

 _"I'm not saying that Immigration and/or Homeland Security is great, but the
rumor-mongering is unjustified."_

Rumours? It goes a bit beyond rumours, don't you think? It's large-scale and
well-documented. Personal anecdotes alone do not make something true, but
that's not the case here. The personal anecdotes just add a more of a "this
could happen to me" dimension to otherwise abstract reports of it happening to
someone else.

 _"And you know this because...."_

Because .. it's self evident and obviously true? What are you trying to say -
that the hostile suspicion of foreigners at the US Border is _not_ policy?

 _"I know a Stanford CS PhD student who was put through hell by the Australian
equivalent of US Immigration/Homeland Security"_

I'm not trying to say we're much better, although at least we don't
fingerprint. I have many (in some cases personally witnessed/experienced)
grievances against the Australian system.

No need to turn this into a "my country is better than yours" pissing match, I
have a real fondness for America and wouldn't even bother having a strong
opinion if I didn't care ; )

 _"Nevertheless, I don't get hysterical about it."_

Sigh. I hope I didn't come across as hysterical. I put a bit of emotion into
my writing in an attempt to get the point across that it's important to me,
not as a sign that I have taken leave of my senses.

 _"I don't know how things are in Australia, but we can't identify criminals
and the like without actually checking."_

Huh? We're talking about the US Border, specifically about foreigners trying
to visit, many who have never been there before. Are you suggesting that there
is a huge list of outstanding arrest warrants for foreign criminals whose
faces and fingerprints are on record, and this system is an attempt to catch
them? Or that US Border agents are cooperating with overseas police forces to
catch escaping criminals or something?

Of course not. I actually don't know why they do it. The whole thing is
post-9/11 so I suppose it's part of the "war on terror", but surely the number
of "terrorists" who are on the run but whose fingerprints have somehow been
recorded is vanishingly small.

Anyway, I hope that with the new administration in charge and the memory of
9/11 receding, this horrible system will be turned off.

~~~
anamax
>> "And you know this because...."

> Because .. it's self evident and obviously true? What are you trying to say
> - that the hostile suspicion of foreigners at the US Border is not policy?

As I suspected, you're guessing - it's sort of like fundamental attribution
error.

> Huh? We're talking about the US Border, specifically about foreigners trying
> to visit, many who have never been there before.

How does immigration/homeland security know that someone has never been to the
US before? (Hint: their passport isn't reliable information.)

And, if the US isn't trading fingerprint info with everyone it can, it isn't
doing its job.

BTW - The US does collect fingerprints overseas in certain countries. However,
thanks to discrimination laws, it can't just check fingerprints of folks who
look like they might be from those places.

If you argued that we're practicing "security theater", not security, you
wouldn't get an argument from me.

> Anyway, I hope that with the new administration in charge and the memory of
> 9/11 receding, this horrible system will be turned off.

Be ready to be disappointed.

~~~
sho
_"As I suspected, you're guessing - it's sort of like fundamental attribution
error."_

I don't think so. It's merely the most likely explanation. I note you haven't
advanced any competing theories. However, not like I have any hard evidence,
so consider the point retracted if it bothers you.

 _(various points about fingerprint collection)_

Well, everything you say is true, as far as it goes. My point is not that
fingerprint collection is utterly useless and no case whatsoever can be made
for its enactment. What I am trying to say is that it is an extreme tactic
with high costs, not least of which that it turns people off visiting the US
at all, and its benefits are nebulous and require a lot of unlikely "what-if"
scenarios to pay off at all. Meanwhile, the data collected is, IMO, very
dangerous.

Ah, I see you've heard of the term "security theatre". Yes, that's exactly
what it is, and a very damaging and costly act it is too.

 _"Be ready to be disappointed."_

I am, but I don't think it's impossible that the draconian entry procedures
will be dropped. They're really a product of paranoia and irrational fear;
this dissipates in time.

When the drumbeat of terrorism scaremongering has died down a bit, and the
post-crisis economic reality has dawned on everyone, it might well occur to
the leaders of the country that perhaps they can't afford to throw away
tourist and business dollars on misguided security theatre any more. It might
take a while, but economic pragmatism wins out every time.

------
garply
I'm a US citizen in the SF bay area, bootstrapping a web company by myself,
and I'm heading out to Beijing this summer. PG talks a lot about reaching
'ramen profitability' and there's no easier place to hit that than China. It's
going to cost me about $400 a month to live (frugally), and if I needed to, I
could teach English for about $60 / hr. Worst case scenario, a native English
speaker could dedicate one or two days a month to paying the bills.

There is no lack of tech talent in Beijing - from personal work experience,
Tsinghua's tech alums are just as bright as MIT's or Stanford's. And you can
hire a fresh graduate for about $20k / year.

If you can speak Chinese and you don't want to take external investment, screw
Silicon Valley, Beijing is a bootstrapper's paradise.

~~~
alecco
Same here, but back in Argentina after many years in Europe.

    
    
      * ZERO visa problems, we welcome immigrants from hunger or financial disasters,
      since 1890 :)
      * Pretty women who like foreigners (never underestimate this!)
      * Great nightlife (or this.)
      * Projected economic growth (recession instead of depression.) 
      * After '01 default, the country works on zero credit already (no surprises.)
      * But infrastructure and culture is significantly closer to US/Europe.
      * The constitution is modeled after French and US.
      * Hardworking culture.
      * Affordable reasonably good health-care.
      * Ubiquitous free Wi-Fi (cafés, bars, neighbors.)
      * Hacker culture, many knowledgeable people around.
    

Granted: * It is more expensive than China or India, but definitely within the
ramen-profitable range. * Some places are not as safe as it used to be, but
most of the country is _very_ safe. For example where I am people leave cares
with the keys on ignition when going to the shops. * Banks aren't reliable but
you can keep the bulk of money in US or use safety deposit boxes.

YMMV, of course... :)

~~~
kirubakaran
How easy it is to live there without knowing Spanish? What are the safer parts
of the country? Also can you please estimate the monthly expenses?

~~~
alecco
About Language. Part of the population speaks basic English so getting around
at first is not that hard. This is more so in business and of course tourism.
We are a country of immigrants, so people are very friendly and welcoming to
foreigners. Your basic Spanish can ramp up in a couple of months if you take
basic lessons. If you are really on a shoestring you can always place an ad
offering "my English for your Castellano, conversation" ad on some hostel or
hotel or just go to a pub! (this is trivial, everybody would like freebie
conversation, this is a classic way for hooking up, too :) (BTW: the language
is called Castellano, like the language you speak isn't called British but
English; but it's the same thing.)

There are no safe parts of the country as a whole, it depends on the citi or
town you pick. The largest city, Buenos Aires, 13 million, is mostly OK if you
follow some basic rules (e.g. don't carry expensive watches or too much money,
and stay in nice parts of the city.) If you have a big budget, you can live in
isolation within the very expensive neighborhoods. But beware, it can get as
fancy as you can imagine and your expenses get to Manhattan-life level. There
are many areas in this city.

About security outside Buenos Aires, security is mostly very good. There are a
few exceptions and again, in large cities you are OK as long as you stay
within OK areas.

And even in the not that common case of mugging, say you leave a house party
at a friend's place, it goes like this: "give me your money", "here you go",
you give them your wallet with $200 and the guy leaves. You lost u$d 57, big
deal, yawn. Just always carry something over 50 so they take it and leave.

Argentina is the 8th largest country in the world with an extremely varied
geography. Have a look in Wikipedia. There is mountain, sea, jungle, prairie,
desert, you name it. :) My advice is don't plan settling before checking out
the options. ADSL 3Mbit is available on most big cities for $40-$70. The
quality of the connection varies significantly.

Budget varies a lot. Touristy prices are crazy high, don't fall into that.
Temporary rent is also 50% more expensive. In BA an OK-good flat with 1
bedroom will go for u$d 350-500/mo and u$d 70-100 more for bills. In other
towns you can get a beautiful house for that money. It all depends. Transport
is cheap, just try to have always coins with you (trust me on this one.)
Groceries depend on how fancy you live, for my spartan lifestyle is about u$d
55-80/week. Clothes and shoes are somewhat expensive, bring them. Same for
skiing equipment and stuff like that. Computer hardware is mostly cheap, fancy
things are a bit more expensive, like laptops.

Something important: Don't use your foreign credit card. If you plan to stay,
get a basic account with debit card (also, payments with local debit card get
4%+ refund from taxes.)

And don't get too literal on statistics, in particular of the CIA "Factbook."
For example, they say it is an "intermediate" chance of getting disease here.
This is only applicable for people who come _already_ in extreme poverty.

For more info drop me an email.

~~~
alecco
Forgot to say, there is already a boom of Westerners coming here to visit or
settle in the last few years. There are hostels everywhere for u$d 12/day and
most have free wifi, speak English, and have double rooms around u$d 40/day
(usually with private bathroom and shower.)

HI network: <http://www.hostels.org.ar/?l=en>

------
ajju
I have now heard of 3 cases of friends who are engineers (with graduate
degrees from the U.S.) working at well known US software companies, being held
back in India because the US consulate is taking months to do a "background
check" after they went to get their H1-B renewals, which have already been
approved, stamped on the passport. This used to be an "in and out" procedure
since the US government already does background checks on H-1B applicants when
they apply for the first time, get their visas stamped for the first time and
then apply for a renewal while still in the U.S.

At least one of these guys is considering resigning his position in the U.S.
and starting something in India rather than sitting at home doing nothing.

Maybe this is just random chance. If not, kicking skilled immigrants with jobs
out of the country is not a wise move.

------
DLWormwood
From the article...

    
    
        Growing demand for their skills and shining career opportunities back home were cited by 87 percent of
        the Chinese and 79 percent of the Indians as the major professional reason for returning. Most also
        cited the lure of being close to family and friends.
    

No surprise here. A few years back, when I was working for a IT company in
Chicago which went through a kind of "reverse takeover" by an (East) Indian
firm, most of my co-workers gave similar reasons for leaving our U.S. office
soon after the .com bubble popped. The stories told me by my supervisors
reaffirms the article's contention that Indian programmers have a lifestyle in
stark contrast of the countrymen in the rural areas of India proper.

------
tristian
Well actually the labor government in Australia is currently reviewing the
migrant intake policies mentioned in the main article ...
[http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/18/business/ozjobs.2-410...](http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/18/business/ozjobs.2-410091.php)
But it looks like we're going to keep up the high intake for the most part.
We're certainly not losing any from what I've observed.

As an aside I have to say I haven't seen much of anti-immigration sentiment
here even with the economic downturn. Sure, there's been a fair bit of talk
against moving jobs overseas, but barley a whisper with regards to
immigration.

~~~
sho
I actually think we should increase the rate. Double it. Triple it, even.
There will need to be a concommitent infrastructure investment but with that,
no problem.

This should be a time of amazing opportunity to absorb the talent leaving
other countries.

~~~
tristian
Yeah, I agree with you. Given the great talent in the Asian region we're
sitting on a people gold mine. Also given the already short-supply of housing
it would invigorate the property sector as well.

But I don't think the media and public would respond well to it with companies
like pacific brands and the mining companies laying of so many in the last few
weeks. It's probably best if the government doesn't rock the boat on
immigration, lest we get a public reaction against it.

------
Delmar
It's interesting the dynamic that IT fields have added to the immigration
issue. In a broad sense, it makes for different "kinds" of immigrants, with
different skill sets, etc. And I can't help wondering if this adds an element
to this country's understanding of race. That's to say: IT has changed the way
we see immigration from China and India - more so, I think, than from any
other country. Has it changed the way we see the people themselves? Is it a
pos. or neg. influence? What does that mean for the way we see immigrants from
countries like Mexico that often work in jobs that are harder to organize? And
what are these magic factors that so well prepare one or two groups of
immigrants for the American work force? Is it the educational systems in India
and China? And maybe I'm crazy - does anyone else think IT is playing a role
in our collective approach to race?

------
known
There are some interesting comments in
[http://www.rediff.com/money/2009/mar/02bcrisis-100000-pros-m...](http://www.rediff.com/money/2009/mar/02bcrisis-100000-pros-
may-return-to-india-from-us.htm)

------
jleyank
If the people leaving are scientists and engineers, people aren't going to be
concerned. These folks are getting laid off in droves no matter where they
come from and if some ultimately leave the country no big deal.

Looking at the last 50-100 years, if there's suddenly a market demand for
these fields, students will reappear. It'll take a few years, but people chase
money.

~~~
Rod
It's tempting to think that the job market works that simply. However, it
takes at least 10 years to train a good scientist / engineer. Waiting 10 years
is a luxury.

Moreover, people who choose a career based on earning power tend not to be
talented or creative. In other words, people who would be attracted to Science
/ Engineering if the salaries would rise a bit are exactly the kind of people
that make mediocre scientists or engineers.

~~~
adamc
Link, please. I think you are painting with too broad a brush. Many people are
attracted to many things, and economics is one of the factors they use to
discriminate between them.

~~~
ardit33
I agree with Rod. I witnessed this first hand during the dot-com boom. (i was
in school then). I attracted a lot of types "I am going to retire by 25"
types, which had no talent. They would soon quit within the year when they hit
the wall on the mid-higher level CS classes. My school had a notorious class
that you had to take either second semester, or first in Sophomore year, which
was challenging, but it went deep down in CS concepts. A lot of people failed
that class. They will either try again, or just switch to Business, or
Information Technology (watered down CS/bussiness combination. Good for
somebody doing IT work at some large corp).

Just raising salaries is not a path to get more great engineers. More mediocre
ones, yes. I think there is a hard limit in the general population on how many
good engineers it can produce.

------
thras
At the risk of getting modded to oblivion again, I'll say it again: we need to
change our immigration policies to encourage high-skill immigration from high-
IQ countries, and discourage low-skill immigration from low-IQ countries. We
don't need more yard-workers -- they don't contribute much to GDP, suck up a
lot of social services (tax dollars), and even their grand-children have
trouble graduating high school.

Build a fence across the Mexican border (it's cheap, and it worked for Israel
despite the naysaying) and require high-level skills for every immigrant
coming in after tomorrow.

~~~
ajju
There are High-IQ countries? Must be the water! </sarcasm>

~~~
thras
I'm confused. Are you claiming that the populations of all countries score the
same on IQ tests? Are you saying that it's all explained by culture and that
all that culture goes away when someone immigrates? Do you believe in
creationism? What?

While I'm sure that your conviction is sincere, I doubt it's based on any
actual evidence. Instead it's an expression of how you'd like the world to be.

~~~
critic
I think if you used words like "cultures that do not value education", you
wouldn't come off as a racist/IQist as much.

~~~
thras
Okay, sure. But then I'd have to think of an explanation for why adopted
Asian-Americans do just as well (or better) academically than Asian-Americans
raised by their own parents. Culture can't explain that. Maybe you could help
me out?

~~~
andreyf
You're looking to compare the psychology of adopted Asian-Americans and un-
adopted Asian-Americans? This is definitely a place where correlation can be a
million things other than causation. I'm no social scientist, but two things
come to mind right away:

Consider the financial situation of a household which adopts children -
adoption is a very expensive and rigorous process, so adopted children of any
nationality are going to be in a family which is financially secure and meets
some kind of standard psychologically and legally. Not so for many Asian
immigrants - I would imagine that on average, Asian immigrants aren't as well
off as foster parents. Culturally, their environment will be quite different.

Cultural identities also come into play - adopted or not, Asian children will
identify themselves as "Asian", just as Jewish children identify themselves as
"Jewish", Russian children will identify themselves as "Russian", and African
American children identify themselves as "Black".

~~~
thras
Okay, you have a hypothesis. It seems a little unlikely, but I agree that it
could be true.

Now, let's get to the proof side of things. What evidence makes you think this
is a good explanation for the range of phenomena that you see? What else does
it explain? Why can we discount other explanations, etc.

~~~
andreyf
I'm not sure what you are referring to.

When it comes to social science, there is no one single comprehensible good
explanation for the vast majority of phenomena - what I was pointing out is
that there are systematic biases when comparing "adopted Asian Americans" and
"Asian American immigrants". These biases - financial, psychological, etc -
will have a significantly larger influence on how children perform than what
you're testing for (genetic differences).

~~~
thras
Only they don't, because when you measure it, you can predict 80% (studies
differ on the exact number) of IQ from parent's IQ. The rest is mainly
unshared environment (what we don't know how to fix).

------
palehose
Is this really something of interest to Hacker News? It sounds more like
political flamebait to me.

~~~
queensnake
From the guidelines:

    
    
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