
Where the Super-Rich Go to Buy Their Second Passport - Jerry2
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-buying-citizenship/
======
tabs_masterrace
The concept of citizenship and passports always seemed so archaic to me. I
never signed a contract with anybody, yet the place I was born in ultimately
decides the boundaries of the space I'm allowed to live in.

Thankfully there is a lot of freedom of movement if you're lucky enough to
have a "good" passport, but recently we've seen the trend reverse a bit due to
the refugee-scare. Hopefully one day everything will be open for anybody.

But just hypothetically, if I want to grab a bike, ride to some isolated
forest in France, build a cabin and live the hermit life, I can not to that.
I'd be forcefully removed and placed back into my designated space. And force
really is the only thing that gives basis to the claim of land. Seems kinda
weird. Animals don't care and just move where ever they want to.

~~~
whatshisface
> _Animals don 't care and just move where ever they want to._

A very very high fraction of animals are territorial and will fight to the
death over land claims. You can see this in your back yard if you have
squirrels or bird nests.

> _But just hypothetically, if I want to grab a bike, ride to some isolated
> forest in France, build a cabin and live the hermit life, I can not to
> that._

This is actually a result of fairness on the part of the French government -
you are a "nice person" and presumably would not ruin the environment for
anybody else if you did that, but if it were legal to show up and make houses
in French forests it would only be a matter of time before unscrupulous
individuals began to show up and clear-cut the forest, overtaxing it and
turning it into an unregulated slum city. Indeed if everyone were nice there
would be no need for laws or governments at all.

~~~
ian0
This is obviously correct but also worth noting there is a middle ground. As
evidenced by freedom of movement schemes within ASEAN, EU etc. So approaching
the ideal of the OP but in a pragmatic way.

~~~
harperlee
Well, Schengen grants me freedom of movement to roam to France and live there!
So that middle ground does exist.

We are just slowly working toward more homogeneous soceties among which
freedom of movement can be allowed - but currently, if we eliminate all
borders tomorrow, it would be quite chaotic. What we first need to address are
the struggles that make millions of people want to leave their home country,
so they can be happy there, and there is no mass exodus from anywhere.

------
Bedon292
Went down a rabbit hole on this one, and though this was an interesting
related chart: [https://www.henleypassportindex.com/passport-
index](https://www.henleypassportindex.com/passport-index) It shows which
countries have the best passports as far as access goes.

Edit: Add some data from these countries

Countries from the Article:

-Austria 186

-Cyprus 171

-Malta 182

-Turkey 111

-Vanuatu 129

-Grenada 141

-St. Kitts and Nevis 151

-Saint Lucia 142

-Dominica 136

-Antigua and Barbuda 149

For reference:

-United Kingdom 186

-United States of America 186

There does not appear to be a correlation between access and price. Though the
most access is the most expensive.

~~~
classichasclass
What would be particularly interesting is intersections for folks who actually
do buy multiple passports. If I had a US passport plus a Maltese passport,
does that score some higher number of access by allowing you to use the right
passport at the right border, or is it still 186?

I hold dual citizenship and I move a lot more easily through many borders than
my single citizenship wife does by picking the appropriate passport for that
particular entry. No, I didn't buy it.

~~~
dustinchilson
Using their tool ([https://www.henleypassportindex.com/compare-
passport](https://www.henleypassportindex.com/compare-passport)) it looks like
if you have a US Passport and add a Malta/Austria Passport you add Brazil,
Venezuela, and Iran to your visa free travel.

Cuba if you add Antigua and Barbuda

So it'd be 189.

------
ggm
Odd that neither Australia nor NZ figure on the list since both do this
(passport for cash, ie citizenship pathways for entrepreneurs) and both are
heavily used (China) and both are occasionally pointed to (Peter Thiel?)

~~~
cascom
The list would be totally different if the question was where could you get
permanent residency for cash - I would guess the US would be at the top of the
list along with Singapore, Australia, Cyprus, Canada, and Switzerland (who I
think used to let super rich people negotiate their own tax rate)

~~~
projectramo
Well, the list does not tell you which income you pay taxes on.

The US is unusual (perhaps unique) in that most rich countries don't ask you
to pay taxes on your worldwide income.

So if you have a lot of passive income -- almost the definition of rich --
then you would prefer England or Canada over the US.

Someone might make a comparison of London and Vancouver real estate but there
are so many other factors that I am not sure that is useful, but it might be
indicative.

~~~
cascom
The article discusses where you can get Citizenship for cash, the OP is
addressing Residency for cash (which can lead to citizenship eventually) -
those are two different lists.

One's desire to obtain Citizenship may have a very different set of
motivations than one's desire to obtain Residency.

~~~
projectramo
I agree with your basic point that the list is aimed at purchasing citizenship
outright and would look different if you included countries with residency
requirements.

I was just pointing out that the US would not top the list if it did.

------
cletus
So I'm going to rant about taxes because this is what the underlying issue is:
the ultra-wealthy increasingly not contributing to the societies that made
their wealth possible and continue to make it possible.

I'm reminded of the talk about the tax cuts passed last year. One of the
reasons given for cutting the corporate tax rate is double taxation (paying
corporate taxes then taxes on dividends). Australia has had a system for years
that solves this problem.

The concept is dividend franking. What this means is that if a company pays
30% corporate taxes on $1 and then passes you the remaining $0.70 as a
dividend, you're actually getting two things:

\- Income of $1

\- Credit for $0.30 tax paid

If you're an offshore investor that tax credit gains you nothing. You don't
need to file a tax return. You've paid $0.30 in taxes.

If you're resident then if your marginal rate of tax is lower than 30% you'll
get a refund on the difference. If it's 30%, no difference. If it's more than
30% you'll pay a little more.

If the US/EU adopted such a system and also applied it in some form to capital
gains a lot of these problems would simply go away. By this I mean that some
form of withholding taxes are retained from capital gains that you get credit
for in your taxes. This is a little trickier than dividends because you have
to work out a cost basis but this is a solvable problem.

Then you combine that with:

\- Revenue apportionment of profit. If you earn x% of your revenue in country
A then country A taxes x% of your profit; and

\- Loans taken out in country A for $x when an entity has untaxed profits in
country B is the same as repatriating $x.

Then you have a much improved situation (IMHO). It also means things like
buying citizenship, at least for tax purposes, largely goes away so who cares?

Also, other than outright citizenship there are a number of so-called golden
visa programs that give you a path to citizenship but are often much cheaper.

~~~
cascom
Actually there is not much of tax benefit to being a citizen most places (vs
resident) - meaning you can accomplish most tax avoidance without actually
becoming a citizen

------
selimthegrim
The other day I logged into Bank of America (where I used to have a checking
account but now just keep a couple of credit cards) for the first time in
several months and a popup comes up asking if I have dual nationality. Really
guys? KYC is getting a little out of hand here....

~~~
lisper
I noticed that too. I thought it was an ominous development.

~~~
selimthegrim
I happen to have dual nationality with Pakistan (a situation I chose a few
years back and not without some regrets now), so I answered accordingly. But
what on earth is BoA acting as a front for ICE now for I can't imagine.

~~~
lisper
Well, here are two clues:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/citizenship-
shouldnt...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/citizenship-shouldnt-be-
a-birthright/2018/07/18/7d0e2998-8912-11e8-85ae-511bc1146b0b_story.html)

[https://www.npr.org/2018/07/04/625980910/white-house-
launche...](https://www.npr.org/2018/07/04/625980910/white-house-launches-
effort-to-take-citizenship-from-those-who-lied-to-get-it)

I think the Trump administration is quietly launching a strategy to strip a
large number of people of their citizenship.

~~~
selimthegrim
I was incontrovertibly born here, so they can throw at me what they like. But
my mother, like many people born in South Asia, finds it hard to obtain
official birth documentation. When she naturalized she had to have her mother
swear in an affidavit as to her birthplace and birthdate.

~~~
lisper
You shouldn't be too complacent. If the "subject to the jurisdiction" argument
gains traction (and it might) they could argue that your mother's citizenship
is invalid, and that therefore so is yours.

~~~
selimthegrim
She was a legal permanent resident by virtue of marriage to a natural born
citizen at the time of my birth, so the question of whether her naturalization
is invalid or not should be irrelevant for my case, since it occurred some
years later.

~~~
lisper
It _should_ be irrelevant, but it may not be if the anti-birthright-
citizenship argument carries the day. If that argument prevails, all kinds of
claims to citizenship will unravel, which is exactly what the people advancing
the argument hope to achieve.

If you have dark skin you should be particularly worried.

~~~
selimthegrim
As Aasif Mandvi put it, Reverend Al speaks for me, but just.

------
nutjob2
The best things in life are free, I'm working on my fourth, with no money
down. There are always fees though.

There are surprising ways to get residency and citizenship from all sorts of
countries, usually with a commitment of a bit over 5 years.

~~~
dudul
Can you share a little bit more? What passports are you talking about? And
also, do you have a specific reason motivating this project?

~~~
nutjob2
I'm not going to list them for privacy reasons, but they include US and EU,
which in my mind are the most powerful for entrepreneurs, especially as a
combination.

But you do need some luck and other features. A degree helps a lot, although I
don't have one.

I got the US one via the green card lottery, and although that might seem like
crazy luck, if you live in certain countries your odds are surprisingly high.
I calculated mine where 1 in 10. You just keep on applying.

The EU has pretty amazing visas available if you look carefully (being
proficient at the language that Google Translate claims is English is
helpful). For instance you can live in several EU countries just by being
self-employed. You can then use that to get citizenship over time and live
almost anywhere in Europe and even in some Caribbean countries.

Places like Australia (although they're tightening this up) allow you to move
there if you're young, English speaking and have the right job or degree (for
instance, if you can cook!). Once you're in often there is no requirement to
actually work, so you can work on your own project while you pass 4 years to
claim citizenship. Then you leave. But you might not want to.

Motivations? Besides flexibility for business purposes and low cost or free
high quality health care, I'd say this: the world is becoming a more dangerous
place, and being able to escape somewhere safe is comforting.

~~~
dudul
OK, I hold myself both a US and EU passport and I agree with your overall
reasoning. I was just surprised by the will to get 4 passports. I feel like
once you have US and EU you're pretty much covered.

~~~
nutjob2
Australia/New Zealand is a very nice to "get away from it all" but the real
challenge for me is something nice in Asia.

I'm not really seeking these out they tend just to happen.

------
pimmen
Among the people with the motivation to get a safe haven and the money to
spend on it would be drug king pins and wealthy ISIL funders. I hope they at
least perform lengthy background checks on these people.

~~~
Fjolsvith
Most of the drug king pins with records are serving time. Background checks on
the ones without a record are not effective.

~~~
pimmen
These governments could also maybe ask where the money to buy the passport
comes from. Then you could check if those investments have any ties to known
drug traffickers. That should certainly raise some red flags at least.

Same thing with ISIL funders, ask the person to explain where the wealth comes
from and require that the business has to have been audited by the local
authorities. It's not perfect, but then at least someone might look into
suspicious transactions to known terrorists.

------
champagnepapi
"I got 5 passports, I'm never going to jail" ~Jay-Z

------
drdeadringer
About 5 years ago I took vacation at St Kitts // Nevis and, somehow, locally
learned about the "invest for citizenship" exchange deal they had. Somehow
again I was surprised to find them on this list, but this time with a
numerical dollar value and how long it's been in action.

The romantic side of me has considered it once or twice had I the disposable
liquid cash for it.

~~~
privateprofile
"Exchange deal" seems like a euphemism for what's going on there:
[https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/12/nevis-how-
the-w...](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/12/nevis-how-the-worlds-
most-secretive-offshore-haven-refuses-to-clean-up)

------
joncrane
Are there any additional benefits other than the collector value? Can you keep
your money in Antigua and Barbuda or Vanuatu to avoid enough taxes that the
deal becomes a net positive? Are the banks there reliable enough that the risk
is low and you can be confident it's going to work out?

~~~
pilsetnieks
Travelling would be the first one that comes to mind. If you're from a country
low on visa restriction index
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travel_visa#Visa_restrictions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travel_visa#Visa_restrictions))
a passport like this could ease your travels significantly.

~~~
suhastech
Once you are a high net worth individual, I don't think getting visas would be
difficult. My best bet is still to get tax break.

~~~
pilsetnieks
There's still much less hassle, and time necessary.

------
projectramo
Related studies I would like to see:

1\. Which passport gets you access to the most high paying jobs

2\. Which passport has the best low cost education

3\. Which passport has the best low-cost healthcare

4\. Which passport gives you access to cities with dense experiences (I'll let
HN assist me with rounding out what that means)

~~~
cududa
Not really related. If you’re paying the prices listed in the article none of
those listed are of consequence

~~~
projectramo
You're looking at the top of the list, and I'm looking at the bottom.

------
vortico
So I'll ask the obvious question: Why does Austria ask for $24M for
citizenship instead of just denying it?

~~~
TomMarius
Why would you waste an opportunity to gain $24M? What would be the point of
denying it?

~~~
Cthulhu_
A country is NOT a business, and there's international treaties and whatnot to
consider - what if a terrorist were to buy their way into an Austrian
citizenship? What if a wanted US criminal escapes to Austria and hides behind
their Austrian citizenship?

There's more factors here than just money.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
> what if a terrorist were to buy their way into an Austrian citizenship?

Well it would probably work for a short while but if the terrorist matters
enough (any terrorist that can come up with 24M probably does) back room
politics would happen, said terrorist would wind up being extradited and
Austria would get to keep the 24M and whatever they negotiated from the nation
the terrorist is being extradited to.

------
Alex3917
Or just repatriate to wherever your (or your spouse’s) great grandparents came
from for free.

~~~
jgh
That doesn't always work. Some places only care about parents or grandparents,
others (like USA) require the person spend a number of contiguous years in the
country in order to sponsor family. I have a grandparent who was born in the
USA but never lived there long enough to sponsor family.

~~~
Alex3917
In most places you would need your parents to file their paperwork first,
based on their parents or grandparents. I’m trying to get my mother-in-law to
repatriate her German citizenship right now so we can do it.

------
poisonarena
You could also just pay someone WAYYYYY less than 100k to marry you for
citizenship no?

~~~
stormbrew
I've seen people go through this process (without money involved, to be clear,
they were genuinely trying to live together) in both Canada and the US and
it's nowhere near as simple or guaranteed as people think. Maybe it is in some
countries, but I'd expect many 'desirable' countries are actively trying to
filter out people who marry specifically for citizenship.

~~~
dudul
Having gone through this process in the US myself, I won't dispute the "not
simple" part, but how is it not guaranteed? As long as the marriage is done in
good faith why would the permanent residency - and then citizenship - be
denied?

There is no CAP for "green cards through marriage" so no waiting list, and the
residency period to transition to citizenship is shorter (3 years) than the
standard (5 years I believe).

~~~
stormbrew
Your question has the answer in it: because it can be denied on grounds of not
being in good faith. GP post was talking about literally paying someone for
marriage to obtain citizenship, literally the opposite of a good faith
marriage in terms of this process.

People think it's a rubber stamp, but from what I've seen it's an invasive
process where they poke around all sorts of aspects of your personal life to
ascertain how 'good faith' your marriage is.

~~~
dudul
Sure, the GP was talking about marriage fraud, but I was under the impression
that the post I was replying too was making a general statement that GC
through marriage in general was not guaranteed. My bad for misunderstanding.

My XP is only one data point of course, but the process was not invasive at
all. We had to provide some documentation (e.g. statements of shared bank
account, utility bills with our names), go through a 30-ish minute interview
where we had to explain how we met, how we got engage, etc and that was it.
Now, maybe when the USCIS suspects fraud they start digging a little more and
it gets painful.

~~~
stormbrew
The people I know had friends interviewed and it took quite a long time (a
couple years at least) of that sort of thing for whatever reason. It still
took quite a few years for even permanent residence, afaik citizenship was
never even obtained.

I don't doubt that the experiences vary. But the entire _point_ of my reply
was that you can't just buy into citizenship with marriage because they will
deny you if they find out you did that, ergo it is not guaranteed.

------
justaguyhere
Turkey? Wondering why would someone want a Turkish passport, especially now?

~~~
cjrp
Potentially a future EU member?

~~~
gambiting
Ha. In like 20-30 years, assuming that the entire political course of the
country does a 180 degree spin and stays on it. It would be faster, cheaper,
and easier, to just live in any EU country for 5 years and get the passport
that way.

