
Ask HN: I'm an unemployed programmer in SF that will work for minimum wage - unemployedinSF
Live in San Francisco<p>B.S. Computer Science<p>Have used java, python, flex, html5 canvas, javascript, and css on various webapp projects<p>No 'real' job experience<p>Unemployed for 6 years trying to do a startup (yes 2005, when I just graduated and read my first PG essay)<p>Will work for minimum wage, or free if the work is interesting and may lead to a job<p>Will do any work, even if not programming related<p>Will accept any length term: internship, contract, contract to hire, full time, etc<p>Hey HN. After 6 years of trying to do a startup with no success, I'm close to giving up. I've been rejected from ycombinator (twice), various startup conferences (launch, etc), and even angellist. I have no connections to investors and have had no success trying to get introductions.<p>I've recently tried to apply for programming jobs in SF, but had trouble because of my complete lack of work experience. All my software engineer friends in SF are making $100k+ and telling me how hot the market is. I can't even get a minimum wage job flipping burgers at In N Out or bagging groceries at safeway because they have dozens of applications for each opening and my long period of unemployment looks bad.<p>Is there any possibility for me to make a fresh start? Will anyone take a chance on hiring me? Do you have any advice for me?<p>Your comments are appreciated!<p>edit: added email contact in HN profile<p>edit2: for all those asking for code samples, I implemented the reddit is hiring backend challenge in python (http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/fjgit/reddit_is_doubling_the_size_of_its_programming/). they said not to release the code publicly until after march, but if you send me an email I can show you privately.
======
tansey
I can't help but feel like HN is getting trolled here. There is simply no way
someone who has done a startup and has experience in all the listed
technologies cannot find any job in the Bay Area. Spend a couple days at the
Hacker Dojo in Mountain View or go to an event like the 500startups one at
House of Air last month and you'll meet dozens of people looking for talent.

I'm not just being cynical here-- I have lived in Palo Alto for just under 6
weeks and my RoR skills are subpar at best. Nevertheless I've been offered
multiple jobs, co-founder opportunities, etc. And I'm not even that likable.
If you're a nice guy, the opportunities are endless!

That being said, on the off chance that this isn't a troll and you don't have
any luck with the replies here that are offering assistance: contact me (see
my profile for info) and I'll throw some contracting work your way.

~~~
unemployedinSF
I wish I was trolling, but this is the reality of my life. I did apply for one
of the investor demo days at Hacker Dojo, but was rejected. I'll admit I am
somewhat antisocial, and have not attended any networking events, which is
totally my fault.

~~~
gruseom
As you know, lots of programmers are anti-social, so that's less of a problem
than it seems. It may well be easier for you to get a good-paying programming
job than a lower-paying normal-person job. If I were you I'd find something
interesting to hack on and then talk to other hackers about it. That doesn't
require much social skill and is as least as likely to lead to work
opportunities as the resume/interview grind.

------
Mz
I was a homemaker for about 2 decades. And sick as hell while job hunting. It
took a while but I eventually got a job. It started at about half the wage
that GIS jobs I was applying for started at. It has nothing to do with
anything I want to do or any of my background education.

A) If you haven't already, pick up "What color is your parachute?".

B) Work on your resume. It shouldn't say 'unemployed for 6 years'. Mine did
not say "unemployed for about 2 decades". Mine listed my education and I told
employers that I was a "homemaker and homeschooling mom going through a
divorce".

C) Whatever your buggaboo, stop harping on it. Mine was my health. I talked
incessantly about my health crisis because I felt I needed to be "up front"
and because it was uppermost in my mind...yadda yadda. The very first
interview where I did not mention my health issue was the job I got.

I applied to a large company and got a phone call "According to your resume,
you qualify for the following three jobs: blah blah morning shift, blah blah
evening shift, blah blah evening shift." I knew I was too sick to work morning
shift. I replied 'Put me down for the two evening shift jobs.'. I went in for
additional testing. Afterwards, I was told "You still qualify for both jobs.
Which would you like?" I said "I have no clue what either of these jobs really
entails. I've been a homemaker forever..." and we chatted a bit about it. I
think a contributing factor to the decision was one of them started two weeks
earlier than the other, and that was what I went with.

I still have that job. I feel underemployed and so forth. But it has allowed
me to keep a roof over my head, work on my health issues, get through my
divorce and start my life over. In the aggregate: It's all good.

Good luck with this.

~~~
keeptrying
You really should write a book. I think anyone who has done something like
this should write a book. Authentic stories of determination and persistence
usually do well as books, movies and motivational speaking gigs. You'll need a
good editor and publisher of course but I think it's worth a shot ...

~~~
Mz
That sentiment seems to be the general consensus. I've heard it repeatedly
over the years, about various aspects of my life. But I am acquainted with a
woman who wrote a book about her life and the publisher turned her down. It
sounded too fantastical and they had recently been burned by someone else
whose fantastical life story turned out to be all made up. I also get that
kind of reaction a lot: That I am a liar, a teller of tall tales, etc. People
frequently think I must be, at the very least, exaggerating. (The truth is, I
do a lot of downplaying to try to minimize social problems.)

So it is unlikely that a traditional publisher will ever publish my life's
story -- unless I get famous for something else first and publishers begin
coming to me. I have found that it really doesn't work to try to 'sell'
myself. When I go to them, people just think I'm full of crap and trying too
hard. It works far better for me to wait for other people to discover me.

At work, I remain in that same entry level job -- a job that some folks have
gotten right out of high school at the age of 18. (I have about 5 or 6 years
of college, some of it the equivalent of graduate level work and lots of
people hired after me have been promoted.) There are people in the department
I work in that know I am bright. And I have submitted suggestions, proposals,
etc. It goes nowhere, in spite of sometimes being initially met with
enthusiasm. No one seems able to believe that some loser who can't get
promoted out of an entry level job could possibly have meaningful solutions to
systemic departmental problems (which is generally the scale I think on). And
recently when someone did take a proposal of mine seriously, the
implementation ended up bearing no real resemblance to what I was trying to
accomplish. It ended up repeating the same systemic sins I was trying to
redress. I take this as a hint that corporate America and me don't really mix
that well. I'm disgusted and if I came into enough money say, this week/month,
I think I would promptly quit my job and begin walking across the US. (Edit:
The job I have seems to have a high-ish wash-out rate and I have kept it while
recovering from being very ill. So I don't feel like a personal failure. I
just feel like I have no real future at the company -- at least not one
commensurate with my abilities.)

Which is to say "It's not like I haven't tried to go the
traditional/conventional route." But it doesn't work for me. Most likely, I
will need to go off and do something on my own. Winning over an audience
single-handedly will probably be less challenging than winning over The Powers
that Be in some existing bureaucracy (whether at a publishing house or at my
place of employment).

But thanks for the feedback. I do appreciate it. :)

~~~
keeptrying
The powers that be are only interested in self preservation and nothing else.
If you can modify your ideas so that it highlights that point then they will
be interested in it.

ITs usually not worth the effort though. Start saving up and quit.

------
DilipJ
ouch. this is why it's dangerous to read a pg essay on entrepreneurship when
you're in college. He makes it look easy, and some kids just follow their
dreams without building a support base first. Remember that for every guy like
pg, there are 9 others just like him who went bankrupt. Coming out of college,
you should always try to find a stable, legit job and try to build up a
capital base. Get paid by someone else and develop a level of professional
competency, build up your credit score and take out a loan and do something on
the side, and only go solo once who you have some stable revenue. This is the
way to do it, unless you come from money or are lucky.

So here's my steps to you for changing things around:

1) Completely revamp your resume, and to stop referring to yourself as
unemployed. You were self-employed.

2) write down a list of all the competitors your startup had that are located
nearby. Find out the phone numbers/emails to the higher ups in those companies
through web searching.

3) phone or email those guys, and say that you are writing a freelance article
about the industry. Say you want to interview them for their expertise (all
guys love to have their ego's stroked: that's the way to get that introduction
you want).

4) during the interview (preferably in person, or by phone), ask them some
general questions about the industry, and mention that you had attempted to do
a startup in the field but failed. Try to ask questions related to how their
business succeeded, in order to compare and contrast with your own
experiences. Ask them to give you advice on whether to pursue another startup
in this field (even though you may have no intention of doing so) or look for
a job in the industry.

Now at this point, it can go 1 of 2 ways. If you're lucky, the other person
may see your interest for the field, and ask to see some of your work. If it's
good, you will probably move to the top of the pile when a new hire is needed.
If that doesn't happen, then repeat as necessary with every other company.

That's a better bet than anything else out there, don't waste your time with
the craigslist blackhole

~~~
pg
I make starting a startup look easy?

"Imagine the stress of working for the Post Office for fifty years. In a
startup you compress all this stress into three or four years. You do tend to
get a certain bulk discount if you buy the economy-size pain, but you can't
evade the fundamental conservation law. If starting a startup were easy,
everyone would do it."

<http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html>

"So I'll tell you now: bad shit is coming. It always is in a startup."

<http://paulgraham.com/die.html>

"As you go into a startup, you'll be thinking "everyone says it's really
extreme." Your next thought will probably be "but I can't believe it will be
that bad." If you want to avoid being surprised, the next thought after that
should be: "and the reason I can't believe it will be that bad is that my
model of work is a job.""

<http://paulgraham.com/really.html>

~~~
nir
I wouldn't say easy, but there seems to be an underlying message that it is a
deterministic, repeatable process - if you're willing to endure the stress,
are smart and hard working you'll succeed - when in reality luck plays a
pretty big part, especially in built to flip startups.

~~~
pg
"Actually the best model would be to say that the outcome is the product of
skill, determination, and luck. No matter how much skill and determination you
have, if you roll a zero for luck, the outcome is zero."

<http://paulgraham.com/really.html>

"There is a large random factor in the success of any company. So the guys you
end up reading about in the papers are the ones who are very smart, totally
dedicated, and win the lottery."

<http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html>

~~~
DilipJ
Granted, but sometimes the impression that comes off to a young kid may be
akin to that of Lebron/Kobe telling innercity kids that they should study and
go to college because not everyone can make it to the NBA. Stuff like that
falls on deaf ears, because the only thing that the kids take away is "this
guy with a high school degree gets millions for dribbling a ball and that
means I can too".

Perhaps YC should focus more on attracting guys in their 30's or 40's? You'll
end up with candidates who are more grounded and who will have a better idea
of the risks they are entering into. They might also come up with better
business and consumer solutions than the youths that typically apply. It might
be worth trying out, even just as an experiment,to have one of your funding
rounds be set aside exclusively for those who are 30+

~~~
nir
The NBA example is exactly what I meant.

I'm not really referring to PG or YC specifically, more to the general
attitude in the startup community: it's becoming increasingly becoming
Hollywood-like, with founder profiles in Vanity Fair and NY Magazine (and
startups like Quora that follow the Hollywood club model of celebrity hype +
watered down drinks), but while most people know that success in Hollywood is
largely random, few realize how much this applies to exit-strategy startups.

------
zedshaw
Well, I feel for you. Being unemployed sucks ass, especially when you have
skills but can't seem to get a job. At the risk that this some very bizarre
sort of dumb troll, I'll propose this:

If you ever want to meet up for lunch at Union Square, I meet with random
programmers from the SOMA area all the time. You're welcome to show up and
hang out with us. They probably all know of jobs and people hiring, or at a
minimum can give you advice.

I'll probably do it the first week after PyCon, but feel free to contact me at
my email (if you're smart, you'll figure it out as it's really not that hard
to find out how to email Zed Shaw when he has a domain at ZedShaw.com).

~~~
unemployedinSF
Lunch with Zed Shaw? Hell yes! Emailed.

------
byrneseyeview
You need to reframe this. You aren't an unemployed developer willing to work
for minimum wage--you're a former self-employed developer looking for his next
gig. As such, you're going to charge your usual rate of $75/hr, because you
know that the fastest heuristic for "Is this guy worth it?" is "What do other
people think he's worth?" and the fastest heuristic for that is "What is he
comfortable charging?"

Of course, you're not interested in internships, or non-programming work. _If
you have to widen the net, you're giving people a great reason to reject you._

Start your negotiation from a position of strength, and you'll get somewhere.
You're starting with surrender--don't be surprised if you lose.

As other people have said: post your Github. Post a link to anything you can
about your startup. Start acting like a valuable programmer, so people will
treat you like one.

(If it's any comfort, I've been in your situation in another industry. When I
started doing what I've written above, rather than what you've written, my
life improved dramatically.)

------
ryanwaggoner
Can you write code and actually get things done? Do you have examples of your
work that look good? If so, get some freelance work. Charge $50 - 75 / hr and
find work by responding to people posting Craigslist computer gigs.

If not, then find some way to survive for a couple months and build some
simple projects. Like, really simple. Hell, just setup some wordpress sites
with good-looking themes from Woothemes or Themeforest. Having 2 or 3 of those
will satisfy 95% of people looking for really simple code-monkey work on CL.
You won't get rich, but you can build up your list of clients in 6 months.
Then you can either keep freelancing or roll that into a fulltime job ("I've
been doing contract work for the last year...here are some example projects
and client references.")

~~~
Sargis
Is it really that easy to charge $50-75/hr without being recognized as a
decent developer?

~~~
tansey
$50/hr is VERY cheap. A decent developer in the Bay Area really should be
charging at least $100/hr-- otherwise, they can just get a job and make more
with less risk. Seriously good developers can charge upwards of $300.

------
z2amiller
I don't think 6 years "trying to do a startup" is the same as a complete lack
of work experience, unless you spent the entire 6 years trying to raise money
and making powerpoint slides. If you did any real programming work during that
time, it still counts. I've seen plenty of resumes with "sole proprietor" type
jobs. Maybe you don't get a job with a large company, but someone who is
versatile and used to doing whatever it takes is perfect for someone else's
startup.

I don't think it is wise pitching yourselves to companies who are hiring 100K+
engineers saying you are willing to work for minimum wage. It shows a lack of
confidence that you are selling yourself so far under market. Pricing is often
a signal for quality. More importantly, the cost of a bad engineering hire is
far greater than the salary you're being paid -- a bad engineering hire takes
time to get rid of, and often produces negative work output. People end up
cleaning up a mess, opportunities are lost while a bad engineer flails at what
should be simple code, etc. A bad engineer could work for free and still be a
worse value for a company than an engineer making market rate. This is the
signal you're sending when working for minimum wage.

------
oniTony
To be fair, $100k+ SDE positions and burger-flipping positions are in
completely separate markets.

If you were working on a startup, then you were "self-employed", not
"unemployed". Market yourself as such. And as others have already mentioned --
if you can't point at jobs held, then point at code/projects that you wrote.
Some startups would rather look at your GitHub profile than a CV.

------
russell
Forget free. It's illegal, even fro interns, where you produce value for the
company. I would consider it unethical for me to hire you for minimum wage,
cheap is OK. You are in an oddball situation, so HR types wont pass your
resume on. Forget BofA. Startups probably cant take the chance. However, there
are usually a few companies on that advertise entry level. Non-profits are
also a possibility, because they cant pay so well.

Your post is a good bet, so I upvoted it.

EDIT: I checked your profile. You dont have contact info. A job cant find you.

~~~
anywho
free = volunteer :) is volunteer work illegal?

~~~
trotsky
I'm not aware of it being illegal per-se, ie criminal. But there is some
rather strong evidence that volunteers for a for profit company, if treated
like an employee (time cards, minimum work hours, training, etc.) would
probably be able to successfully sue for back wages and penalties.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_Community_Leader_Program>

 _In February 2010, the United States for the Southern District of New York
gave preliminary approval to a settlement between AOL and the Community
Leaders totaling 15 million dollars. Final approval was granted in May 2010._

(Good luck to the OP, I know that situation can be rough)

------
glenra
In 2000 I was unemployed for a bit in the Bay Area and wanted to take a short
break from techie stuff. Looking for interesting work I browsed the craigslist
job boards, specifically the "ETC" and "part time" sections. You never know
what you'll find there - I ended up working as an "extra" in the Matrix
sequels. beaubonneaucasting needed people to drive in the background on a fake
freeway in Alameda while cars were crashing/exploding/chasing each other. Paid
about a hundred dollars a day, gave me some great stories and experiences to
talk about at parties or in interviews, got me some random followup jobs...and
now my Bacon Number is 2 and I have a good start on an entirely separate
"performer" resume in addition to my techie one.

Having something recent - _anything_ \- on your resume is a big improvement on
having nothing; having something "cool" that you enjoy talking about is better
still. So I'd try that - think about your _hobby_ interests and cast a really
wide net to find things you wouldn't otherwise have considered. And use
Craigslist.

------
softbuilder
I'm convinced you're unemployed. Now convince me you're a programmer. You have
a CS degree, but that doesn't make you a programmer. What makes you a
programmer?

------
aphyr
Where's your github profile? Personal site with demos? Projects you
contributed to? Anything counts, man! Even toy projects you built in a weekend
just for fun, if they show your ability to reason about a problem.

~~~
SwellJoe
I only hire people with work I can see in Open Source projects.

It's just not worth my time to try to sort through the people who claim skills
that don't actually have them, particularly for contract work that is short-
term. I might be willing to go through a long interview process for a full-
time employee that I expect to invest significant time and money in, but for
contracts? It's just not worth my time. I can look at someone's github,
SF.net, CPAN modules, Drupal modules, etc. and know within minutes if they're
worth working with. Why would I bother with someone that doesn't have anything
to show?

------
atlantic
Looking at the way you describe yourself, a big problem is that the
description is inconsistent. What are you: an entrepreneur, a project manager,
or a developer? If you're a developer, then what is your speciality:
architecture, database, middle-tier, UI? You presented a list of technologies,
but did not indicate your level of experience in each or how they tie
together. It's a laundry list, not a picture of the man behind the
qualifications.

You are too self-deprecating about your startup experience. Even if it didn't
pan out, you must have learnt a lot, both on the technical and on the business
side. You really have to reconnect with your passions and your strengths; if
you are aware of your value, it is fairly easy to get the message across to
others. What was driving you for so long when working on your startup? What
was the vision? That's where your value is.

------
hitechsites
There are literally hundreds of ways for someone with programming skills to
earn money online - and make more money than hourly wages. Here are just a few
to get you started: 1) Setup a profile on Odesk / Elance. Showcase your
programming skills and start bidding on projects. There are thousands of eager
buyers there. Sure you will be competing with programmers from
India/Russia/Phillipines - but you can underbid them all and buyers in the US
will hire you - as being in the US and cheaper than offshore programmers will
be a huge plus for you. 2) Buy a domain name and build websites using
Wordpress/Joomla/Drupal (pick any one), get a domain name for $8.00, use one
of thousands of free themes, add some content, RSS feeds, add Google Adsense
(all free), drive some traffic using SEO techniques. Then list the site for
sale on Flippa, Ebay, Craigslist or any of the other sites to sell stuff. You
can easily sell a site for anywhere from $50 to $500. Sell one site for $250
per week = $1000 per month. 3) Setup a site, Sign up for affiliate programs
(Commission Juntcion, Linkshare, Amazon ...), Drive traffic and earn affiliate
commissions.

4) Market complete websites to small business for under $500 using the
technique in (2) above. ....

~~~
unemployedinSF
I tried elance. They have a convoluted point system where you can bid on ~10
projects a month. I put in the lowest bid for a bunch of simple <500$
projects, but had no responses. They are lots of indian and russian
contracting firms on there spamming every job.

~~~
hitechsites
Would you be interested in working with me on a couple of Twitter related
projects? Currently outsourcing on ODesk, but can definitely consider using
you. Let me know!

------
leftside
A few notes:

\- You don't get a programming job by applying at In 'n Out.

\- Reframe your pitch. You need to signal to employers that you're worth
hiring; "Hire me, I'm desperate and barely competent" doesn't really push that
message.

\- What's "real" job experience? Did you write code for 6 years, or not?

\- I'm out of touch with what junior engineers get paid (hopefully it's less
than $100k), but I'm guessing your friends have accumulated track records over
the past few years and are in mid- to senior-level positions. I don't think
you're likely to get one of those given your history (to say nothing of your
self-presentation). If that's been your target, maybe aim a little lower, at
junior-level jobs? Still difficult since there are so many junior engineers.

\- What everyone else said.

When presenting yourself as someone of value, remember that it doesn't matter
if _you_ believe it. Just say it with authority. =)

Good luck!

------
jedsmith
Change of venue, maybe? Perhaps widen your net? I think San Francisco is your
problem here.

A four-year degree is a solid leg in for a lot of backwards HR departments
(isn't it? everybody telling me to finish mine seems to think so), so I'm
surprised you're having difficulty. A bachelor's should at least get you into
support somewhere, and you can start there. This makes me think that everybody
who can operate a command line has descended upon San Francisco for the
startup culture, and there's a saturation there. That wouldn't surprise me at
all.

Last time I was there it was to visit my sister and do nothing computer-
related, so I might be wrong.

~~~
aphyr
Weirdly, _everyone_ I've met in SF is hiring. They're also all complaining
that they can't find anyone who fits the job. Maybe it's just high standards?

~~~
hello_moto
Have you experienced their weird interview?

I bet it started off like this:

"We're using memcached. Ever heard of it?"

A: "Yes. I've heard about it" [but never use it]

"Ok, since we used it for internet scale, the standard memcached isn't good
enough for us. So tell me, how would you improve memcached for internet
scale?"

A: "Umm..."

Real story.

[The answer is to switch memcached from TCP to UDP implementation, but then
you need to know first how memcached work internally and probably intimately]

The problem is that most of these companies ask specific questions regarding
the weird libraries or esoteric programming languages that they specifically
use to solve a very specific problems.

Might as well go and hire the contributors of those libraries/languages
really.

~~~
slay2k
A: "I don't know memcached that intimately. Why is it not good enough, what
seems to be the problem ?"

If I was conducting the interview, I'd be thrilled to hear that kind of
response given the candidate's self-admitted lack of domain expertise.

~~~
tansey
When I first graduated from college, I took an R&D position doing financial
modeling. Multiple times a day, I would walk into my boss's office to tell him
I had no idea how to implement the next part. He would start to explain and
then use a term like "Gaussian distribution" and I'd have to stop him. Down
the rabbit hole we went, filling up the white board with graphs and formula.
Once we reached the point where I was adept enough to proceed ("oh, ok, so you
just add them all.") we would begin to pop things back off the stack until we
were back at the original problem.

It was a painful process for me. I'm sure it was even more painful for my
boss. After a couple of months, I reached a point where I didn't really need
help deciphering statistics.

A few months later, I read through the code of a co-worker who had been there
much longer. I noticed some deficiencies in a statistical search method. When
I asked my boss why my co-worker implemented all his models using such a poor
technique, he told me, "Because he doesn't come into my office and say he has
no idea what he's doing."

~~~
Confusion
People get hired into an R&D position doing financial modeling when they've
never heard of a Gaussian distribution?

~~~
tansey
It wasn't quite that simple. Yes I'd heard of it, but I didn't know how to
randomly sample from a Gaussian distribution, nor why it was necessary to use
it in the algorithm I was working on ("why can't I just sample from a uniform
distribution?").[1]

Also, I was in a special situation. I had a strong passion for the work I was
doing, knew my boss before I got hired, and had done related research that
showed I was able to push my way through challenging problems.

[1] [http://www.nashcoding.com/2010/07/07/evolutionary-
algorithms...](http://www.nashcoding.com/2010/07/07/evolutionary-algorithms-
the-little-things-youd-never-guess-part-1/)

~~~
NY_USA_Hacker
Sample from a univariate distribution by taking the inverse function of the
cumulative distribution and plugging in a [0,1] uniform random number. So, if
X is a real valued random variable, then its 'cumulative distribution' F_X(x)
= P(X <= x) where P denotes probability. Then F_X is monotone increasing so
has an inverse function, say, G(u) = F_X^(-1). Then if U is a random variable
uniform on [0,1], G(U) has distribution F_X like X does. Note: Have to patch
up a little in the case F_X is not strictly monotone increasing.

For the inverse of the mean zero, variance 1 Gaussian distribution, look in
the old NBS AMS-55 math handbook. They have two nice, simple formulas that are
plenty good as approximations; one formula is a little more accurate than the
other.

For getting samles from a multivariate Gaussian, that is the second lecture!

------
sokoloff
Ditto what mindcrime said about posting examples of your work/abilities if you
can.

I'm starting a company 4/2 after my last day of full-time work on 4/1, and
while I wasn't planning on hiring anyone right away, I do have a fair bit more
work that needs doing than I can personally do, so I will be hiring
contractors for some of it and if you're a fit, would consider hiring you
remotely, assuming your skills matched up and you could handle working
remotely (not everyone can).

I suspect you'll find a better offer on HN anyway, but if not, reach out to me
with some details mid-month,

------
KevinMS
I'm in the boston area and I have a similar experience I seeming to be outside
the job market. While I don't have comp sci degree I have lots of work
experience as well as a small web business that demonstrates lots of solid
code. Just some people don't have the connections or the luck maybe?

~~~
techiferous
The Boston market is hot right now. If you want, feel free to send me your web
business / experience and I can give you an objective take on whether you are
hirable (maybe you have something that is a "red flag"?). But if you know how
to code--and especially if you have built your own web business--you shouldn't
have a problem finding work here, so maybe you just need the connections.

~~~
KevinMS
I think the "red flag" is that I'm over 40. I get screened by HR because I
don't have a comp sci degree, and then I end up interviewing with 20 something
rails hipsters that just feel uncomforable around an old dot-commer.

The perl community is much much better, which I'm going back to. The rails
community has little tolerance for differences. Don't believe me? look at the
"about us" in any rails shop, if they have pictures, what do you see?
<http://thoughtbot.com/about/>

------
sbisker
Btw, thanks for putting yourself out there. Seriously. You've taken a really
important step in fixing your situation - putting yourself in situations that
are unlike what you've been doing in the past (which hasn't been working for
whatever reason), and seeing what happens. Experimentation will get you
_everywhere._

Secondly, I think you should put your work online. If you've really done
website work, why not throw some of that work online for us to see or play
with? After spending some time in design school, I see just how more powerful
a portfolio can be than a resume. Pictures say a thousand words, and a good
code sample or open source contribution says at least as many. :)

To those skeptical of this post, remember we're talking about someone without
_any_ job experience. Not even an internship, it sounds like. Being able to
code is one thing, but it's often hard to show experience in the "soft skills"
of programming without having said you've done it before - from good code
commenting practice and source control, to dealing with working for a boss.
Hiring someone for their first job requires takes _some_ risk on the part of
the employer.

Come to think of it, maybe if this HN post doesn't help, you can consider
applying to paid internships? While many internships are just for students,
some (especially smaller companies or startups) are happy just for the short-
term help - and you might just turn it into a full time gig.

------
laaph
From reading your post, my first thought is, "stop panicking, employers smell
desperation from miles away". Stop worrying about it for a second, realize
what you have to offer, and don't throw yourself out there as "please! I'll do
anything!"

What I would recommend, is that you join ODesk, ELance, or one of the many
other "let's play consultant" websites. Yes you'll be competing with the
Bangladeshis but actually the good ones want big salaries too so you aren't
competing against too much. What I would do, is when you submit a bid, write
in something like "I'm only doing this to enhance my portfolio -- can I
reserve the right to show this to future employers?" and if they say yes, you
have something to show! If they say no, double your asking price, or at least
bring it up to standard value, and if standard value doesn't scare them away,
you get moneys!

Seriously, there are threads on both HN and reddit about people who have made
serious money on those sites, with piles of advice about which jobs to take
and stay away from. Using whatever portfolio you build up, take this into your
resume.

And if you take the advice of others here, list your startup as "self
employed", as well as the consultant time, odds are future employers won't
even look at your code (and HR wouldn't know what to make of it anyway).

There is a lot of other great advice here too. Best of luck.

------
magic5227
Email me please if you'd be interested in Box.

adunn[at]box.net

~~~
greattypo
Is it just me, or are you Box.net employees the only ones who call it "Box"?

------
MyHNAnon
I think I am going to echo most of the other commentators.

I am working with a couple of startups and everyone is desparate for talent. I
know many that would give a week or two with some small jobs to try you out.

That being said. Get some code samples out somewhere. Post a link to your
failed startup. There may be another startup working on a similar or related
idea who could integrate parts of your code and give you a job.

It is cool that you have a BS in CompSci but to me that means nothing. I know
many people who have one but cant code for shit.

Let us know you can actually code.

Contact me and I will see what I can do to help you out.

------
mindcrime
F!%# bro, that sucks. If I had a job to offer, I'd try to help, but I'm in the
middle of the bootstrapped, funded-by-my-dayjob model myself, so I have no
money to employ anybody. All I can offer is my best wishes and encouragement.
The HN community is really awesome, so I'd bet there's a good chance somebody
here can help you out. Keep your head up, things will get better!

Oh, and if you've worked on anything open-source, or you have any code you can
open, make sure you put it up on GitHub so you can show it off. Code talks and
bullshit walks, as they say.

------
karanbhangui
I'm involved in two companies in the bay area that are hiring Java and Python
web programmers respectively. They pay very competitive SV salaries. Contact
me (email in profile) and I'll get you started!

------
gcheong
1).Go to some meetups and start talking to people. At the last couple python
meetups I went to here in SF, several companies announced they were looking
for developers. You're more likely to get past HR if you can connect with an
employee who can refer you. 2). In the meantime make some iPhone or Android
apps and try and sell them and/or do some projects where you can show off your
code.

Don't discount the experience you gained trying to do your startup. As others
have said, you weren't unemployed but self-employed.

------
shrike
We're looking for someone with Python experience, you could work mostly from
home as soon you've proven your ability to deliver on time, otherwise we're in
Sunnyvale, right off the CalTrain.

Get some code posted up at GitHub. You don't need to solve a new problem, just
find an interesting way to solve any problem or show your skills off. The are
1000's of data sources out there, mash some stuff together.

Get active on StackOverflow, I've hired a couple of people based solely on
what I saw there.

~~~
unemployedinSF
What is your email?

------
hoag
Dude, I'm sorry to hear how rough it's been for you. I'd like to echo what
many have said about posting samples of your work, and spelling out in more
detail your particular skill sets as well as explaining what you _have_ been
doing with your time.

That said, I'm afraid we're not hiring yet, however -- and no, this is not a
shameless plug, but a genuine offer to help -- I can offer you this:

I think you would benefit tremendously from our new startup. The way that we
match Opportunity Seekers (such as job seekers, like yourself) with
Opportunity Providers (such as employers) should greatly assist someone in
your position -- i.e., talent without experience -- to find a new job or even
co-founders to build your own company. We're still prepping the beta (having
some typical last minute issues) but you should definitely sign up and give it
a shot: venturocket.com.

And as defensive as it may seem to do so, I would like to preemptively state
that I'm not trying to take advantage of your seemingly dismal situation, but
genuinely trying to help you get connected with something. That my desire to
help you will of course benefit our startup -- and therefore me -- should not,
on its own, in any way invalidate the sincerity of my claim. After all, if it
weren't for my desire to create a more efficient way to connect people with
opportunities, I would never be doing my startup in the first place.

Besides, I do believe a certain Mr. Smith once pointed out that "[i]t is not
from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect
our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."

Best of luck either way.

~~~
unemployedinSF
Thanks, I signed up at your website.

~~~
hoag
Cool man. I hope we can be fully operational soon enough to help you out. In
the meantime, I do wish you the best of luck.

------
fotoblur
I'd hardly feel as if working at a fledgling startup is considered unemployed
even if it was considered so on paper. I'm quite sure that potentially you
must have learned a wealth of knowledge during those 6 years and its in your
best interest to highlight those on your resume and in any interview you
manage to secure.

Being in the position of interviewing many candidates lately I get truly
excited when people want to show me code and examples of stuff they've built,
including the challenges they've met head on. Being in a startup gives you
many life experiences that you need to address as a strength, whether you
succeeded or not. A little secret that should be totally obvious is that no
one wants to work with weak, incompetent, whiny developers because your
life/project is in their hands when you have to get the job done by the
deadline. Your team is only going to be as good as your weakest link.

I will tell you also that the market is hot. I just heard that in the tech
sector the unemployment rate in CA is 5.9% compared to 12.3% for the entire
labor force. So in actuality you'll face less competition finding a job in the
tech industry currently than you will at fast food, etc. At my current company
(in the Bay Area) we have a hard time finding good people locally, and I hear
this same thing from many people at other companies. There is a very
competitive job market (between companies) here and my employer is paying us
handsomely if we can bring in a good new hire.

In addition I'd say play to your strengths. If you're an okay back end
developer but excel at front end then apply to these positions or vice versa.
Think of the hiring process from the other side of the desk and you'll be sure
to land an interview.

------
warrenwilkinson
A lot of the skills you've picked will be marketable. Take a look at your
resume, and ask yourself how well it communicates what you learned about:
databases, web servers, system maintenance, typography, design, AB testing,
payment systems, Apps (facebook, iphone, android), well known
software/libraries, git, unit testing, agile, business development,
networking, marketing, blogging, and sales.

You're in the business of selling yourself. Try writing about the 'benefits'
you provide your employer, not your 'features'. For example: 6 years of
startup experience is a feature. Ability to bring products to design-
completion/code-completion/market is a benefit. Knowledge of several key
technologies is a benefit because you don't need training nor time to get up
to speed. Your startup experience means your used to working without much
direction, you're used to working hard, you are flexible/resourceful, you
understand the role and importance of sales, marketing, and customer service
in an organization, and you are connected to the startup network -- a
connection your employer could benefit from when hiring.

You should try to present the benefits you feel will maximally impress your
future employee.

------
jjm
I hope that if my startup doesn't take off that I'll be able get back in to a
job. Though with 7yrs of actual corp. gig developing I might have a better
chance.

Here some cool things you could do (some of which i'll have to do myself):

1.) Put your resume on Google docs NOW. Repost it from here. Make it a living
document.

2.) Get a Google sites account. Possibly put up examples of your programming
knowledge (essays?). Point your name.com to it if you can, otherwise make sure
the site is sites.google.com/yourname

3.) Get a github account. Push your work up (even if it is only examples of
your knowledge)

4.) Contribute to FOSS projects, get to know the committers and make contacts.

5.) Check out some freelance sites and as I understand it you could probably
undercut a lot of these people. This might be some added experience you'll be
able to add to your resume. After several jobs your resume should look a bit
better.

6.) Good luck chap! Give me your twitter account so I can follow and RT. :-)

------
pnathan
I have no idea.

But you might try selling your abilities. Can you demonstrate your failed
startup's code?

------
evo_9
Post some examples of your work. If you don't have anything then create a
project to showcase your skills. That's where I'd start if I were in your
shoes and it will generate interest if you have solid skills.

------
rdouble
Move to NYC. The companies there are desperate and will hire anyone.

~~~
clark-kent
I am in NYC, I would like to know who is hiring?

~~~
ibejoeb
If you're looking, email me. I make software for banks.

------
mlloyd
You actually do have work experience if you've been building your own company
for the last 6 years. Do you have anything to show for it? If so, that's your
resume. If you don't...well why not? That would be your real problem, not the
lack of work history.

------
OstiaAntica
What was the startup? You should be able to make an interesting pitch to other
companies in the same field. You can present the idea, and what you
accomplished-- it may be that a company in the same space would hire you and
even buy your code.

------
brackin
If you aren't attending events regularly, following the people you need to
know from these events in advance on twitter and getting to know them and what
they're about then you should be.

------
gersh
What was the startup? Did you write code for that? Is there a website? How did
you manage to spend 6 years with nothing to show for it?

------
petervandijck
Do you have a site where you showcase your skills?

------
kunqiana
we definitely need more stories like these to balance out the belief that
doing a start-up is some how "easy". The reason is not to discourage people
but to let them know what they are in for so that they can prepare better. It
would also give some CS undergrads second thoughts about dropping out of
college with the attitude that start-ups are easier.

------
carmen
an unwillingness to work on closed-source webapps adds a further wedge to the
situation. you have it pretty good - desperate "work on our proprietary
centrally-hosted webapp" pleas for talented developers are oozing into every
crack of the internet

------
rdouble
Out of curiosity, how did you support yourself without employment in SF for 6
years?

~~~
unemployedinSF
Living in SF I spend less than $15,000 per year on rent and food (I cook). It
isn't as expensive as many people think, especially if you limit your
entertainment and activities to free things on the internet.

~~~
rdouble
Well, I've done that, too, but I still had to have a job. Where did the
$15,000 come from? That is what I meant.

------
espeed
Contact me -- my info is in my profile.

------
herval
What is your startup? What does it do?

------
WordSkill
I might have some work for you.

Can you speak Hindi?

~~~
unemployedinSF
No but I can speak english and mandarin.

~~~
bugsy
Where were you born? Do you have US citizenship?

~~~
unemployedinSF
Yes, U.S. Citizen.

~~~
bugsy
OK, thanks, I was wondering if maybe you were here on a visa that would
require sponsorship for work or something.

Just trying to figure why there have been no leads before. I assume you have
some sort of product you created and residue business stuff for the startup
you did, right? It's not just that you spent 6 years in development and never
released the product.

Well good luck, looks like you've got a few things lined up.

------
zxcvb
I'm glad that I've spent the last couple of years making a name for myself in
the big consultancy firms.

I may have to work as hard as a start-up founder but at least I get a nice pay
packet and none of this '6years out of college with no career or anything to
show for my efforts'.

I don't get why people spend years coming up with crap start-up ideas,
failing, then trying the same failed recipe again. I wouldn't try and take
something to market unless it was really hot. Your average web 2.0(crap) is
just a waste of everyone's time. You could have been working your ass at a big
consultancy or trading firm as a technologist in that time and made yourself
some good money whilst actually having a life that doesn't involve ramen
noodles.

~~~
zxcvb
Down voting me because you don't agree with me is stupid.

~~~
zxcvb
Typical HN downvotes. Far too busy circle jerking over your failed statups
that rarely lead to anything other than wasted youth.

~~~
prodigal_erik
> Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it
> makes boring reading. - <http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

------
curiouslurker
See how "PG is hurting the kids"? :) anyways, seriously I also find it hard to
believe that someone with this kind of skill is willing to work for minimum
wage. And seriously a successful startup will never be built by someone
willing to work for minimum wage! Sorry to say this but you got issues bro!

