
Twitter’s Ill-Timed ‘Frat Party’ - joeyyang
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/business/twitters-ill-timed-frat-party.html
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CognitiveLens
The comments so far seem to be ignoring how the frat culture at American
universities contributes to a culture of gender discrimination. This issue has
been discussed for years, and was highlighted further with the (discredited,
but important) Rolling Stone article about frat culture at the University of
Virginia.

The problem is not just the name, and I recognize that drinking games are not
fundamentally sexist, but the structure of a party with this kind of theme
pays homage to a culture that has some deeply-ingrained gender discrimination
issues.

It's not "ill-timed", it's just wrong.

~~~
exstudent2
> discredited, but important

It was important only insomuch as it highlighted extreme bias in mass media.
It was a wholly fabricated story and should not be used to shame frat culture.

Edit: to those downvoting, I'd love to hear how a fabricated story is somehow
important. It was a huge blemish on Rolling Stone.

~~~
CognitiveLens
It's important because it focused national attention on a very real issue for
awhile, before the story shifted to be about journalism. It's also an
important moment for journalism, but that's not what I was referring to.

The UVa story was largely fabricated, but that doesn't mean that no one gets
raped, shamed for being a victim of rape, ostracized for being a victim of
rape, or encouraged to be silent when raped at a frat party at many
universities. One of the most telling responses to the article _before_ it was
investigated was the fact that very few people were actually surprised.

That's important, even if the media successfully dodged having to deal with
the deeper issues for another few years.

~~~
exstudent2
This is pure speculation on your part. The reporter for Rolling Stone went out
in search of this story and interviewed at many campuses. The only account she
came across was the fake Jackie story.

Since there aren't actually any examples of this happening, it certainly
doesn't seem pervasive.

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bcg1
No matter which way I look this at this article it sends my brain into a
recursive loop that terminates in WTF

1) NYT, this is not 'ill-timed'... this would be dumb at any point in history.

2) Anyone that can't/won't understand that 'frat party' is at best not
inclusive but more likely degrading and offensive is completely unqualified to
lead people or organize anything. They should be fired immediately but I doubt
anything meaningful at all will happen to them.

3) Who even thinks this kind of thing is fun? Chugging beer... seriously? How
old are the people who work at Twitter?

Ugh... this kind of thing makes me so mad. Makes me ashamed for my vocation
and for my gender. These idiots get all the attention from the slobbering tech
media who perversely loves to perpetuate the culture... grow up, get a life,
and stop the madness already.

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Apocryphon
The party's theme seems fine, it's not as if they're encouraging people to
wear offensive costumes. Maybe they just shouldn't have called it a frat
party.

~~~
Nadya
"College Party Themed Party" doesn't roll off the tongue as well.

~~~
Apocryphon
Just call it a Beer Party. That's what frat parties are, really.

~~~
Nadya
Well, on second thought, a Beer Party isn't a good idea for a party. What
about employees who don't drink or wouldn't be comfortable around a bunch of
drunk coworkers? They should change it to a fruit parfait party.

E:

Being downvoted by a bunch of alcoholics I see /s.

The issue I'm pointing out here, in case anyone missed it, is that the party
isn't _welcome and opening to an entire group of people_ based on it's
"theme". In this case: frat excludes females.

I don't drink. I actively avoid being around drunk people (though I don't care
if they drink - so long as I don't have to be around them). So a _beer-themed
party_ would be very exclusionary of people like me.

I would not feel _welcomed_ at this party. I would feel _excluded_ and that _I
don 't belong_. So why isn't that an issue?

~~~
theorique
_In this case: frat excludes females._

A typical American university "frat party" is _hosted_ at a fraternity, and
also welcomes attendees of both sexes.

The drinking-to-excess issue is a separate issue from the party theme. It
sounds like they were going for a "college throwback" concept rather than
"drink to excess".

(One hopes that professionals in the workplace realize that they probably
shouldn't drink 'til they puke and fall under the beer pong table.)

~~~
Nadya
I'm not saying my personal beliefs - I'm saying what others are taking issue
with. The Thought Police are taking issue with it being a "Frat Party" because
it "excludes women and makes them feel unwanted".

Or am I not understanding the backlash properly?

~~~
theorique
I agree - I think the backlash is because "frat party" is supposed to exclude
women. Never mind that "frat" refers to the location, and not the attendees.
Any actual "frat party" that I ever attended in college welcomed women with
open arms.

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venomsnake
Unless the females in twitter were somehow forbidden to attend, I see no
problem at all with that. Beer and beer pong sounds like a lot of fun.

Anyway - Newton's fourth law - "for every action there will be SJW
overreaction". The SJW are losing a lot of credibility behaving like that.

~~~
geofft
I'm picturing some slaveholders in the mid-1800s tut-tutting John Brown,
saying how they see no problem with slavery (naturally they treat their slaves
with respect and no slave has ever complained to _them_ ), saying how the
abolitionists are losing a lot of credibility behaving like that.

~~~
woah
Your comment is so hyperbolic, it's as if normal logical discourse is a puppy
and your comment is a hammer that you are using to bash it's head in.

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roguecoder
How many men here would feel invited and included if their company threw a
"Sorority Party" or, for the Brits, a "Hen's Night Party"? And that's before
we even get to this being one thing among many in that environment alienating
and marginalizing women.

~~~
tzs
> How many men here would feel invited and included if their company threw a
> "Sorority Party" or, for the Brits, a "Hen's Night Party"?

If the announcement said it was open to all, I'd feel invited and included.

The reason you don't see a lot of open sorority parties at colleges is that
most sororities are not allowed to serve alcohol at events they host or
cohost. That's a rule of the National Panhellenic Conference. This saves them
about $100 per year per student on insurance, which is passed on to the
students via lower dues.

There have been some sororities at some colleges trying to get permission to
hold parties with alcohol, open to men, so that they can mingle with and drink
with men but where they are the ones controlling the alcohol.

------
arprocter
How long do we have to wait before the Pao case stops being dragged out as
proof of 'sexism in tech'?

It seemed to me that certain parts of the media decided the case was a slam
dunk, Pao lost, and now it's still being mentioned because...?

~~~
sp332
I think the article didn't have much to say about this story, and decided to
throw in content from other articles to pad it out.

~~~
arprocter
Or the writer has already decided 'tech is sexist' and then tries to slant the
story to reflect that.

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exstudent2
Pretty ridiculous that there would be outrage over red plastic cups!

I like how the very first sentence claims discrimination against women in tech
and links to Ellen Pao LOSING her case as proof.

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lmartel
This might be problematic but it isn't sexist, and the media's obsession with
linking every tech story to the Pao case is getting old.

If anything, this discriminates against older employees. When I was in
college, there were always a lot of girls at house parties, but never any
50-year-old VPs of Engineering.

------
redthrowaway
Really? Now you can't have company parties with a college party theme?

When are we just going to come out and say that all of this moral outrage has
jumped the shark?

~~~
sp332
Fraternities generally don't include women.

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oldmanjay
Fraternity parties sure do.

~~~
davidgerard
... and so the role women play at a frat party is the role the company thinks
women should play in the company? You're not making this look any better an
idea.

~~~
oldmanjay
I'm not defending Twitter, just pointing out a basic fact. I have no real
horse in this particular dogfight.

~~~
davidgerard
Fair enough!

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ottertown
Lots of comments here focusing solely on the beer pong aspect of frat parties.
You guys aren't wrong: there's nothing sexist about beer pong.

The use of the word 'frat' really is the difference here. Beer and beer pong
are the obvious connotations with frat parties. Scantily clad women, roofies,
and rape, are some others, even if those associations are unfair. Why in the
world would you associate your company with something like that?

The party itself isn't some egregious, unforgivable mistake, but the fact that
while under investigation for gender discrimination, it does something like
this, illustrates to me that Twitter is pretty oblivious to the problem.

~~~
travjones
Perfect summary. Don't forget racism as an additional association. I'm not
sure why there is an overwhelming atmosphere of denial on HN whenever the
topic of women in tech comes up. What's the deal? Do you think women are
adequately represented in tech jobs? What about minorities?

~~~
aaronbrethorst
I assume it has to do with the meritocracy myth. There's quite a bit of good
writing about it. Here's one piece:
[https://medium.com/@jocelyngoldfein/techs-meritocracy-
proble...](https://medium.com/@jocelyngoldfein/techs-meritocracy-
problem-a6e5e0a56157)

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JayHost
There is a big difference between a party themed "Corporate CEO's and HOES"
(Penn State+) and people getting together to play beer pong. Beer pong's
likability is analogous to Corn Hole. Anyone can do it. Almost anywhere.

The sign than reads "Twitter Frat House" is unnecessary.

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littletimmy
This is feminism gone insane. Do these people go around _trying_ to find stuff
to be offended by?

"Frat party" is offensive now? What about the very existence of frats
altogether. Should we ban those? Oh what about men's clubs? What about groups
of men? Tell you what, why don't we ban men gathering in groups of 3 or more.
That oughta correct sexism.

~~~
justizin
> What about the very existence of frats altogether. Should we ban those?

A lot of people think so. ;)

~~~
littletimmy
Yeah that's true. But my take on that is if a group of people wants to self-
segregate and socialize separately then the state or society ought not to have
authority to stop that.

~~~
justizin
Circular logic.

