
MRI shows meditation changes brain structure in 8 weeks - metageek
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2011/01/21/mindfulness.meditation.training.changes.brain.structure.8.weeks
======
reader5000
I would like to see these sorts of studies controlled with a group that rather
than meditate for 30 minutes a day do anything that requires concentration for
30 minutes a day. So e.g. writing, learning an instrument, etc. I would assume
you would get similar changes in brain functioning as meditation. In other
words it would be interesting to see if there is something special about
meditation, or if its benefits can be achieved by any sort of daily period of
sustained/enhanced concentration.

~~~
ctl
It's possible, but I'd be pretty shocked. I've been doing mindfulness
meditation for a few months and I feel fairly confident in saying that the
belief that "the operative part of meditation is sustained concentration" is a
misconception. When you meditate you allow yourself to become aware of your
body sensations but you don't _force_ yourself to concentrate on them, and I
don't think that most meditators explicitly try to maintain concentration when
they sit. (That said, after ten or fifteen minutes of meditation concentration
often becomes natural.)

It certainly has seemed to me that the important part of meditation is the
_relaxation_ that it lets you achieve. I think it's literally impossible for
me (at least) to get as relaxed as I am after a typical hour of meditation by
any nonmeditative means. (If you interpret "relaxation" as having low blood
levels of e.g. cortisol this is actually measurable.) And I know that I have
days when I don't sufficiently relax myself when I sit, and I usually don't
see the same benefits that I do from "good" sits. 'Course, a lot of this could
be confirmation bias.

Also, anecdotally, I maintain substantial concentration for 30+ minutes a day
because that's what studying is, and the short- and long-term effects of that
concentration don't seem to be anything like the effects of meditation.

~~~
bpd1069
Cortisol + Epigenetics = shit we are just starting to understand.

Myself included.

Point being is that how we react to our environment has a profound affect on
the expression (or suppression) of genes in our DNA, and can be passed on
through generations.

Mindful meditation is probably (pure conjecture on my part) causing
methylation of genes involved in the production of cortisol (indirect).

~~~
khafra
Are you saying one should meditate for the sake of one's children?

------
Swizec
What I'd really like to know is whether these changes are permanent. I used to
meditate daily for a few years in high school and then stopped for various
more or less scary reasons.

There were three main effects I personally got from meditation:

1\. A constant headache that lasted a few years and then promptly ended when I
stopped meditating. Of course this could just be correlation, but it's one
hell of correlation.

2\. From my later experiences I found out that meditating that often and on
that level (I could go into lucid REM within a minute of concentrating and
then snap myself out of it at will) had a similar effect as constantly being
on light doses of hallucinogenic drugs. It was really quite awesome,
everything had a deep richness to it, colours were brighter, shapes were more
pronounced etc.

3\. Daily meditation also produced some quite interesting side-effects like
being able to hold my breath for several minutes and reducing my heart rate to
40bpm (measured with an at-home cardiograph).

Another interesting effect of being able to go into REM at will was that I
could live for a few years on 4 hours of daily sleep because I was in effect
doing polyphasic sleep.

The only prolonged effect from meditation that I can still notice three-ish
years after stopping is that I no longer dream like a normal person.

Maybe I should start meditating again, that stuff was kinda fun.

~~~
nopinsight
Could the 4 hours of daily sleep have any relation to the constant headache
you faced then?

~~~
Swizec
Yes, very likely, however there were no other indications of sleep
deprivation.

------
kgarten
I'm not really surprised. Considering that activities like juggling also
increase connections:

<http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2009/091012_2.html>

I expect any new activity will change the brain structure and make it more
"elastic". To really assess if there are long time benefits of meditation, one
needs a way larger sample size and longer time period. I wonder how the
changes juggling does to our brain compare to those of meditation or other
activities.

------
henryw
If you are not sure how to practice this (like me), here's some instructions
from <http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/mindbody/a/Meditation.htm>

1\. Find a quiet and comfortable place. Sit in a chair or on the floor with
your head, neck and back straight but not stiff.

2\. Try to put aside all thoughts of the past and the future and stay in the
present.

3\. Become aware of your breathing, focusing on the sensation of air moving in
and out of your body as you breathe. Feel your belly rise and fall, the air
enter your nostrils and leave your mouth. Pay attention to the way each breath
changes and is different.

4\. Watch every thought come and go, whether it be a worry, fear, anxiety or
hope. When thoughts come up in your mind, don't ignore or suppress them but
simply note them, remain calm and use your breathing as an anchor.

5\. If you find yourself getting carried away in your thoughts, observe where
your mind went off to, without judging, and simply return to your breathing.
Remember not to be hard on yourself if this happens.

6\. As the time comes to a close, sit for a minute or two, becoming aware of
where you are. Get up gradually.

I just did it for the first time for 10 minutes. I am surprised by the number
of thoughts that flashed through my mind. I think doing this really help clear
up the queue of things your subconscious wants to bring up but you have not
had the time to get to. My temples and forehead feels really oxygenated. I
think the deep breathing is a big part of it.

~~~
Nick_C
This is it. Wish I could upvote you a few dozen points. Really, I think other
comments that talk about meditation as being some grand mystical experience
are doing a disservice.

It's simple. It's easy. You don't need to pay a $1000 to some Guru Master to
learn it.

------
ulvund
more

[Psychological Functioning in a Sample of Long-Term Practitioners of
Mindfulness
Meditation](<https://webspace.utexas.edu/neffk/pubs/baermeditators.pdf>)

[The Effects of Mindfulness Meditation on Cognitive Processes and Affect in
Patients With Past
Depression]([http://www.openground.com.au/archive/Effects_of_Mindfulness....](http://www.openground.com.au/archive/Effects_of_Mindfulness.pdf))

[Loving-Kindness Meditation Increases Social
Connectedness]([https://www.stanford.edu/dept/psychology/cgi-
bin/drupalm/sys...](https://www.stanford.edu/dept/psychology/cgi-
bin/drupalm/system/files/LKM+Article.pdf))

[Attention regulation and monitoring in
meditation]([http://brainimaging.waisman.wisc.edu/~lutz/Lutz_attention_re...](http://brainimaging.waisman.wisc.edu/~lutz/Lutz_attention_regulation_monitoring_meditation_tics_2008.pdf))

[Short-term meditation training improves attention and self-
regulation]([http://ppesports.com/uploads/MBM_Short-
Term_Impact_on_Perfor...](http://ppesports.com/uploads/MBM_Short-
Term_Impact_on_Performance.pdf))

[A Randomized, Wait-List Controlled Clinical Trial: The Effect of a
Mindfulness Meditation-Based Stress Reduction Program on Mood and Symptoms of
Stress in Cancer
Outpatients]([http://shamrockdesign.com/sitesOffline/sp/pdfs/Med_The_Effec...](http://shamrockdesign.com/sitesOffline/sp/pdfs/Med_The_Effect_of_a_Mindfulness_Meditation-
Based_Stress_Reduction_Program_on_Mood_and_Symptoms_of_Stress_in_Cancer_Outpatients.pdf))

[Effectiveness of a Meditation-Based Stress Reduction Program in the Treatment
of Anxiety
Disorders]([http://www.gsas.columbia.edu/itc/hs/medical/cp4/client_edit/...](http://www.gsas.columbia.edu/itc/hs/medical/cp4/client_edit/topic4/sg3b-1.pdf))

[Mental Training Affects Distribution of Limited Brain
Resources]([http://brainimaging.waisman.wisc.edu/publications/2007/Slagt...](http://brainimaging.waisman.wisc.edu/publications/2007/SlagterMentalTrainingPLoS.pdf))

~~~
chanux
Found on HN earlier...

[The Surprising Speed of Om]([http://chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/the-
surprising-speed-o...](http://chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/the-surprising-
speed-of-om/25093))

[Meditation boosts part of brain where ADD, addictions
reside]([http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/08/meditation-
boost...](http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/08/meditation-boosts-part-
of-brain-where-add-addictions-reside.ars))

[Brief Meditative Exercise Helps
Cognition]([http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100414184220.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100414184220.htm))

~~~
gwern
Oh shoot, I accidentally downvoted you to 0. I'm sorry! I didn't mean it but I
can't see how to undo like I could on Reddit; perhaps someone could neutralize
my vote?

------
getpost
Wow! Lots of interest in meditation lately. The study suggests that meditation
does something, as opposed to nothing. I imagine watching TV for 8 weeks
changes brain structure too. Neuroscience based on imaging has a long way to
go, but we have to start somewhere, right?

As for haecib's point about improvements in cognitive function, I say it's
tough to measure in the global sense we really care about. What's the value of
being a more kind and patient person? Can you measure cleverness?

Current tests of cognitive function are things like working memory (somebody
must have tested that -- I'll look), phonemic fluency, etc. Did you know that
"long working hours may have a negative effect on cognitive performance in
middle age."[1]

Is Hacker News going to start covering meditation? Great! in the meantime,
here are two more articles that might interest readers of this topic.

This is Your Brain on Meditation, quote: "Science and meditation teachings are
exactly parallel" he explained "but they don't speak the same language."[2]

Can Meditation Cure Disease?[3]

[1] <http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/169/5/596.full>

[2] [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/28/this-is-your-
brain-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/28/this-is-your-brain-on-
med_n_628268.html)

[3] [http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-
stories/2010-12-25/ca...](http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-
stories/2010-12-25/can-meditation-cure-disease/)

------
Djabowski
Great to see meditation discussed on Hacker News. I would like to join with my
two cents.

There seems to be some confusion regarding the different kinds of meditation
there are, and there are lot. Within the Buddhist context there are two main
types: Samatha (concentration) and Vipassana (insight).

Concentration meditation calms and relaxes, and this is usually achieved by
instructing the practitioner to focus on something and not to let go for the
period set aside to meditate. That which is focused on (the object of
meditation) can be the breath where the instruction would be :follow your
breath while you meditate, a syllable - om is the classic one, a posture - by
sitting in a certain way and just being fully aware or engaging in a yoga
asana or even the whole body which is what mindfulness meditation seems to be
about. Most people find it hard to stay with something like the breath without
interruptions for 3 minutes, let alone 15, 30 or 60 minutes. If this is done
long enough it becomes natural to stay with the object for any amount of time
and the ability to focus increases.

Insight meditation leads to breakthroughs in the Buddhist framework. In this
practice one focuses on something in one’s awareness: a physical sensation, a
thought, a mental imagine or visualisation, etc... By doing this one is said
to be able to realise it’s 3 Characteristics which are Impermanence, Suffering
and No-Self. The breakthrough will eventually lead to Enlightenment which is
the Cessation of Suffering. The capitalisation is to denote Buddhist dogma for
a great explanation of these concepts and the stages one goes through please
refere to: Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram MD,
available for free here. <http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml>

Traditionally, in Buddhism anyway, one builds up the ability to stay with an
object with clarity for a period of time by doing concentration (samatha) and
then moves on to do (vipassana)

I hope this is helpful. Meditation is an interesting topic but at this point
in time it is difficult to make sense of all the jargon and perspectives.
Perhaps my time reading up on this is helpful to someone in a position similar
to mine a few years ago.

------
getpost
Many of the comments in this topic, and yesterday's "Ask HN: Do you meditate?
How/Why?[1] have a skeptical tone.

reader5000: "I would like to see these sorts of studies controlled with a
group"

Swizec: "What I'd really like to know is whether these changes are permanent"

andrewwingram: "I'd like to see if this is backed up by similar studies."

haecib, "what I really want to know is do those changes in the brain's
structure manifest in any sort of measurable cognitive improvement."

It's possible no skepticism is intended in the above cases, but let's say it
is. Certainly there are some skeptical people. And hesitation is implied, as
if, 'Once it's proven that meditation has certain benefits, then maybe I'll
try it.' There's nothing wrong with skepticism and hesitation. These traits
can be lifesaving, but there's an opportunity cost whenever these traits guide
behavior.

The opportunity cost for a 6 or 8 week meditation trial is very low. We know
enough to see the potential for a positive result, which may be modest or
huge. So you don't see a few movies, so what? It's not like you can't see them
later. Just try it.

I'm fine with a modest benefit, whatever it may be, but what energizes my
practice is the big stuff: seeing clearly, substantially more skillful action,
happiness not based on conditions, equanimity, even the big E. I can't think
of any other activity, not even starting Google, with that kind of return.

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2125115>

~~~
jonhendry
I was definitely wary when I started getting into meditation. Walking up to
the relevant shelf at Borders, it can look like a bunch of aging hippies and
new age woo. Which is normally a big GET AWAY sign for me.

One thing I found useful was the book "Zen and the Brain" by Dr. James H.
Austin, published by MIT Press. Austin is an emeritus professor of
neuroscience, and has been practicing Zen since he spent some time in Japan in
the late 60s.

The book is a massive, thousand page, dense doorstop, with lots of
information. He tries to come up with possible explanations of the phenomena
experienced in meditation, and for how meditation can cause long-term changes.
The Table of Contents even includes a listing of chapters with "Testable
Hypotheses".

The book goes through other phenomena similar to those experienced in
meditation, which are caused by known influences such as drugs or localized
tissue damage.

If I recall correctly, his main idea for how meditation might cause long-term
changes in behavior is excitotoxic action of glutamate, etching away certain
neural connection pathways.

------
haecib
Interesting, but what I really want to know is do those changes in the brain's
structure manifest in any sort of measurable cognitive improvement. That
should be the next thing to look at.

~~~
metageek
Actually, I think the article said that was what their previous study looked
at. Having found cognitive improvements, they went looking for brain changes.

------
andrewingram
Very interesting, I'd like to see if this is backed up by similar studies.

I'm encouraged that all this information about mindfulness is appearing just
as I'm getting interested in it. Perhaps it's a form of cognitive bias.

~~~
bad_user
Here's a good book on the subject: [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Full-Catastrophe-
Living-Mindfulness-...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Full-Catastrophe-Living-
Mindfulness-Meditation/dp/0749915854)

~~~
Klinky
It's very wordy and you can almost sum it up with the following exercise:

"Lie on your back, place your hand on your stomach, focus on your breathing
ensuring that you expand your stomach on inhalation and contract it on
exhalation. Do not concentrate on any specific thought(s). If your mind starts
to wander, acknowledge the thought(s) and then let it go. Do this for 30 - 60
mins a day.".

Discipline is required to do this, something I am terrible at. Either I feel
like I am wasting time or I fall asleep. :D

~~~
lfittl
Uhm you sure about that posture? (didn't read the book though)

As far as I've learned & experienced, meditation is always practiced sitting
upright - it's actually a quite important part about it. Like that:
[http://www.google.at/images?q=mindfulness+meditation+posture...](http://www.google.at/images?q=mindfulness+meditation+posture&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1202&bih=721)

~~~
Klinky
He does go into other postures, but from what I recollect the first one he
mentions is lying on your back. I got from the book that the posture isn't as
important as being comfortable, clearing your mind and having something stable
to focus your mind on initially. Breathing is three fold because it is always
with you, you will never stop breathing* & when people are anxious or in the
midst of panic usually their breathing becomes irregular, which is something
you can take back and control, empowering the person in that situation to
realize they are still breathing and OK.

Much of the book is has him discussing his pain & wellness center, patients &
his own life. Which is why I said it's wordy. I have read reviews that suggest
his follow-up book has more meat & potatoes on meditation techniques:

[http://www.amazon.com/Wherever-You-There-Are-
ROUGH/dp/140130...](http://www.amazon.com/Wherever-You-There-Are-
ROUGH/dp/1401307787/)

*Yes there are exception to this which my logical mind started going down, such as paralysis, death, drowning, choking... etc...

------
JonathanFields
Another study out of the University of Oregon last year used MRI to show
similar results, but in as little as 6 hours of training:

"The changes were strongest in connections involving the anterior cingulate, a
brain area related to the ability to regulate emotions and behavior. The
changes were observed only in those who practiced meditation and not in the
control group. The changes in connectivity began after six hours of training
and became clear by 11 hours of practice. The researchers said it is possible
the changes resulted from a reorganization of white-matter tracts or by an
increase of myelin that surrounds the connections."

[http://uonews.uoregon.edu/archive/news-
release/2010/8/chines...](http://uonews.uoregon.edu/archive/news-
release/2010/8/chinese-meditation-ibmt-found-boost-brain-connectivity)

While the meditation protocol was not published (MBSR used in the main post
has been well documented), I actually interviewed one of the lead
investigators for the book I'm working on now and he shared that the U of O
protocol was a hybrid that combined elements of mindfulness and some more
basic physical relaxation techniques.

------
JoelMcCracken
Basically, studies (and the progress of certain sciences) flow thusly:

1) A scientist has a outlandish idea, but is able to convince someone to fund
him, albeit limitedly.

2) Scientist from the previous step publishes results of his study. If results
seem worth following up on, continue to step 3. Otherwise, go back to step 1.

3) Another scientist looks at the previous scientist's results and attempts to
get funding for an even more ambitious study, building upon previous
scientist's work. This scientist may be trying to refute or support the
previous scientist's findings.

4) This new scientist publishes. If his results support the results of the
previous scientist, go back to step 3. If the results refute the results of
the previous scientist, go back to step 1.

This process applies to any studies that are sufficiently "costly", thus
mitigating risk. This is relevant, of course, because similar studies often
elicit comments about why the study is insufficient. And, for a certain class
of them, they always will be.

------
Djabowski
Great to see meditation discussed on Hacker News. I would like to join with my
two cents.

There seems to be some confusion regarding the different kinds of meditation
there are, and there are lot. Within the Buddhist context there are two main
types: Samatha (concentration) and Vipassana (insight).

Concentration meditation calms and relaxes, and this is usually achieved by
instructing the practitioner to focus on something and not to let go for the
period set aside to meditate. That which is focused on (the object of
meditation) can be the breath where the instruction would be :follow your
breath while you meditate, a syllable - om is the classic one, a posture - by
sitting in a certain way and just being fully aware or engaging in a yoga
asana or even the whole body which is what mindfulness meditation seems to be
about. Most people find it hard to stay with something like the breath without
interruptions for 3 minutes, let alone 15, 30 or 60 minutes. If this is done
long enough it becomes natural to stay with the object for any amount of time
and the ability to focus increases.

Insight meditation leads to breakthroughs in the Buddhist framework. In this
practice one focuses on something in one’s awareness: a physical sensation, a
thought, a mental imagine or visualisation, etc... By doing this one is said
to be able to realise it’s 3 Characteristics which are Impermanence, Suffering
and No-Self. The breakthrough will eventually lead to Enlightenment which is
the Cessation of Suffering. The capitalisation is to denote Buddhist dogma for
a great explanation of these concepts and the stages one goes through please
refere to: Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram MD,
available for free here. <http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml>

Traditionally, in Buddhism anyway, one builds up the ability to stay with an
object with clarity for a period of time by doing concentration (samatha) and
then moves on to do (vipassana)

I hope this is helpful. Meditation is an interesting topic but at this point
in time it is difficult to make sense of all the jargon and perspectives.
Perhaps my time reading up on this is helpful to someone in a position similar
to mine a few years ago.

------
GrahamHealy
Certain types of meditation have been shown to exhibit different neural
signals compared to those who do not (do a google scholar search for
"Occipital gamma activation during Vipassana meditation").

Those who meditate also tend to have a much shortened "Attentional Blink".
This is quite interesting as it shows a brain reorganisation which allows for
greater information intake and filtering. You can find youtube and wikipedia
entries for "Attentional Blink".

------
muloka
By the way for anyone who's interested here's a copy of the full paper:
[http://westallen.typepad.com/files/lazar-carmody-
mindfulness...](http://westallen.typepad.com/files/lazar-carmody-mindfulness-
gray-matter.pdf)

And the researchers website: <http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~lazar/>

------
derrida
I don't get it. Won't doing any task with a certain complexity everyday for 8
weeks show a change in brain structure that is statistically significant
compared to a control.

That is my hypothesis. Now falsify me, please :-)

------
gcheong
Some inventories you can use to measure your level of mindfulness:

<http://www.mindfulnessandacceptance.vcu.edu/tools.html>

------
r0h4n
Simple silent meditation is not useful. You need rhythmic vibrations which we
have discovered almost 10k years ago. The mantras we use are just a proxy for
producing the vibrations in sanskrit. sanskrit was just a proxy since that was
the only language we knew. all the vibrations are written in sanskrit. wont
speak more.

