
GBatteries (YC W14) let you charge your car as quickly as visiting the pump - mikek
https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/15/gbatteries-let-you-charge-your-car-as-quickly-as-visiting-the-pump/
======
floatrock
Super skeptical here, or at least the wording is misleading as hell.

> The product allows users to charge a 60kWh EV battery pack with 119 miles of
> range in 15 minutes as compared to 15 miles in 15 minutes today.

> The technology works with off-the-shelf lithium ion batteries and existing
> fast charge infrastructure by integrating via a patented self-contained
> adapter on a car charge port

First read says that they're delivering 60kWh in 15min, or they're pumping
electrons at 240kW. This is just nonsense -- most deployed DC fast chargers
are 50kW... the charger companies and the OEMs are experimenting with 200kW
chargers, but those are liquid cooled. So physics says this is nonsense.

Okay, so second read: the 60 kWh is distracting technobabble, and what they're
ACTUALLY doing is "adding 119 miles of range in 15 minutes."

The just-announced Nissan Leaf e+ has a 62 kWh battery with 226 miles of
range. When you DC Fast Charge, going from 0-80% takes about as much time as
going from 80-100% (EV roadtripping is about doing frequent small charging
because of this phenomenon, not one-time top-offs like with gas).

The Nissan Leaf e+ is about a 60 kWh battery, and if they're adding "119 miles
of range in 15 minutes", that's about half the Leaf's 226 mi range, so call it
"30 kWh of charge in 15 min". __That means they 're charging at an average of
120kW. __Okay, now we 're back within the realm of physics.

Note the Leaf e+'s (yet unreleased hardware) still only accepts a maximum of
100kW DC fast charging. I think jaguar has experimented with 150kW charging on
the ipace (but again, liquid cooled cables).

So they're saying they found a way to cycle fast charging and get about a 20%
improvement in average charging rate from the current kinda-top-of-the-line
tech, and only for the first 50% battery capacity.

Not nothing, but hardly "as quickly as visiting the pump", especially since
whatever tricks they use likely won't continue for the next 50% of the
battery.

~~~
timsher
Hi! I'm one of the founders at GBatteries, please let me try to clear that up.

We've demonstrated 5 min to 50% charge, 10 min to 100% - I’ll edit this to
include a demo that we’ve done at CES 2019, and that we’re now exhibiting at
the Detroit Auto show demonstrating.

[EDIT] Video here:
[https://youtu.be/kSLrqR4TfnU](https://youtu.be/kSLrqR4TfnU) Note: Charging
times can vary by ~1 minute here and there, because the algorithm is adaptive
and characteristics of batteries change from moment to moment.

>First read says that they're delivering 60kWh in 15min, or they're pumping
electrons at 240kW. This is just nonsense -- most deployed DC fast chargers
are 50kW... the charger companies and the OEMs are experimenting with 200kW
chargers, but those are liquid cooled. So physics says this is nonsense.

>Okay, so second read: the 60 kWh is distracting technobabble, and what
they're ACTUALLY doing is "adding 119 miles of range in 15 minutes."

There’s a mistake in the article, in both cases it should be in 5 minutes;
should be corrected shortly.

In this example, we’re talking about a 60kWh battery with 238 miles of range
(Chevy Bolt). Right now the car charges 90miles in 30 minutes, or 15 miles in
5 minutes because the manufacturer limits the charging rate for the batteries
in order to preserve their life. Our technology can enable these Li-ion
batteries to charge in 5 min to 50%, or 119 miles. This example assumes that
the car goes to a fast charging station that has enough power to charge the
vehicle in this time; fast charge infrastructure that’s currently being put up
by companies like Ionity (350kW), Electrify America, or Charge Point (500kW
capability).

The problem with batteries today is not charging speed; it’s possible to
charge any battery quickly, but the faster you charge a battery the faster it
will degrade. Our technology is able to decrease the irreversible chemical
reactions that happen during charging, so that the same batteries can be
charged fast without compromising cycle life.

~~~
amluto
What are you doing differently? Unless you’re pulsing your charging or
otherwise varying the current rapidly, then it seems that all you can really
do is vary the current as a function of temperature, state of charge, and
maybe some other variables. At the end of the day, if you’re going to deliver
energy e in time t, you need average power e/t, and the fancier your curve,
the more your peak power will exceed your average.

(And if you don’t want to overhead the cables or the connector, you care about
current _squared_ , giving you an added incentive to charge at near constant
current or perhaps to charge some cells at a different rate than others.

What’s the trick here?

~~~
taneq
And to add to these questions - what are the consequences for increasing
charging rates? Tesla has made some public statements regarding fast(er)
charging (specifically targeting the 350kW Ionity chargers) to the effect that
pushing that much power will degrade the batteries far faster for little gain.

Edit:

> Our technology is able to decrease the irreversible chemical reactions that
> happen during charging, so that the same batteries can be charged fast
> without compromising cycle life.

This seems to imply it's doing something to the battery chemistry? Maybe a
brief pulse of high-rate discharge every now and then to help balance things
out?

~~~
_pmf_
> This seems to imply it's doing something to the battery chemistry? Maybe a
> brief pulse of high-rate discharge every now and then to help balance things
> out?

That's usually within the domain of the battery management system. There's not
much the charger itself can do (there is intelligent communication between EV
and charging equipment, but not as granular as the view the BMS has).

------
dkoston
476mi/h of charging isn’t gorundbreaking. Aston Martin, Tesla and Porsche
already charge at those speeds or faster.

[https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1118575_gm-working-
on-u...](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1118575_gm-working-on-ultra-
fast-charging-system-for-chevy-bolt-ev)

I believe their “secret sauce” is allowing existing packs which charge slower
to get “up to speed”. If so, that’s a pretty limited market as it’s likely
that within a few years, all EVs sold will charge faster than the listed
speeds. They’ll likely have a maximum tota addressable market of a few hundred
thousand cars with only a few thousand real consumers. Most people buying
electric cars with slower chargers are doing so because those vehicles fit
their lifestyle and wouldn’t have a massive incentive to buy a new charger.

~~~
timsher
Hi! I'm one of the founders at GBatteries - I’ve partially answered this in
another comment, so will copy paste portions.

We've demonstrated 5 min to 50% charge, 10 min to 100% charge - below is a
demo that we’ve done at CES 2019, and that we’re now exhibiting at the Detroit
Auto show demonstrating this.

[Video here: [https://youtu.be/kSLrqR4TfnU](https://youtu.be/kSLrqR4TfnU)
Note: Charging times can vary by ~1 minute here and there, because the
algorithm is adaptive and characteristics of batteries change from moment to
moment.]

The problem with batteries today is not charging speed; it’s possible to
charge any battery quickly, but the faster you charge a battery the faster it
will degrade. Our technology is able to decrease the irreversible chemical
reactions that happen during charging, so that the same batteries can be
charged fast without compromising cycle life.

We’re working on enabling existing packs to charge as fast as possible. We’re
not able to fast charge at these levels without approval from the OEM as they
have limits built-in. We need to either be integrated inside of the vehicle,
or on the charger but have the vehicles "approval" for charging at these
higher rates, as at Level 3 and up it's DC to the pack.

~~~
dkoston
Thanks for the added clarity. Being able to charge from below 50% without
damaging cycle life is huge. Would be great to see some cycle life charts
showing GBatteries vs traditional chargers.

One of the other challenges you may face is the lack of consumer knowledge
about how charging affects cycle life. Since consumers tend to charge
batteries in ways that dramatically reduce cycles, this is potentially huge.

Figuring out how to create demand from consumers will be very important as
OEMs don’t really have any motivation here. Cycle life isn’t published nor
really considered by consumers when they buy devices with rechargeable
batteries.

------
choeger
That sounds like a cry to be bought by the highest bidder. Just of the shelf
hardware and some pixie dust, err, "AI". Sure thing they'll find some car
company that will sink some millions into their company.

~~~
ianhowson
Remember the Tesla insider that leaked a bunch of firmware and system details?

[https://twitter.com/atomicthumbs/status/1032939652393521156](https://twitter.com/atomicthumbs/status/1032939652393521156)

If it's to believed, the charge rate limit from a Supercharger is already
maxed out -- they're pushing energy into the battery as fast as the charger
can supply it (and taking some safety risks in the process).

This same company has been around for a few years with spurious claims about
improving laptop battery life with their AI algorithms. So far nobody has seen
evidence that it works, and nobody is lining up to buy them.

------
patejam
This is a straight up lie right?

My car (2017 Honda Accord) has a 500+ mile range on a tank of gas. It'd take
over an hour to charge to 500 miles.

Even at 15 minutes that's a lie. It takes no more than 2-3 minutes of actual
pumping to fill my 500+ mile tank of gas.

~~~
dawnerd
Can take 15 minutes+ in Oregon since we can't pump our own gas. But yeah, last
road trip I got ~600 miles out of a full tank. This company has a loooong way
to go if they want to compete with that.

~~~
patejam
Even in Oregon (or NJ where I'm originally from), it takes longer because of
stuff outside of the actual pumping. So if for some reason you're not allowed
to charge your own car, it'd just move from 15 minutes to 30 minutes.

Also in NJ it definitely doesn't take more than 5 extra minutes waiting for
the attendant 95% of the time.

~~~
jerrysievert
depending on the station, and how many attendants are working, you can be up
around 30 minutes. I've seen some very efficient stations that do a lot of
turnaround, and some very inefficient stations that have 10 lanes of 6-8 cars
per lane waiting.

that said, even at a full tank, that's only 220 miles for me, so unless I'm
leaving Oregon on a trip, a 15 minute charge sounds amazing.

the good news is that I've not seen a charging station that had an attendant.

------
stcredzero
_The system uses AI to optimize the charging systems in electric cars._

Here's one thing that stinks about current/last gen electric cars. I drove
with my wife from my apartment in Nob Hill to Santa Cruz, using up about 92%
of my range. I was able to find a charger and get fully recharged for my trip
back. All of that is fine. What was disturbing, was that while I was climbing
those initial hills out of Santa Cruz, my range figure dipped way below my
miles to go figure. As I left behind that initial climb, my range figure then
went comfortably above my miles to go. This is one place where some judicious
AI could help. (Along with integration with GPS/Maps and destination
information. I should also update my electric car to technology ca. 2019.)

~~~
umeshunni
Telsas do that, FYI. They take elevation and temperature during a trip to
estimate where on the energy usage curve you are at any point in your trip.

Here's an article from 2015 when they introduced that feature:
[https://www.teslarati.com/closer-look-tesla-
firmware-6-1-tri...](https://www.teslarati.com/closer-look-tesla-
firmware-6-1-trip-energy-prediction/)

~~~
spullara
Absolutely true and it works. For example, my Tesla S (2014) very accurately
predicts mileage going from Los Altos to Tahoe (up hill, have to recharge on
the way) and from Tahoe to Los Altos (down hill, can barely make it back
without charging).

------
Animats
Chargers already pay attention to charging curves and temperature. Is there
really much room for safely charging existing batteries faster?

~~~
clouddrover
The Porsche Taycan and the future Audi e-tron GT can make use of 350 kW
chargers to get to 80% charge in 15 minutes. 350 kW chargers are being
deployed on the Ionity and Electrify charger networks now:

[https://insideevs.com/ionity-debuts-350-kw-ultra-fast-
chargi...](https://insideevs.com/ionity-debuts-350-kw-ultra-fast-charging-
station/)

Volkswagen probably will be the biggest producer of battery electrics within 3
years. They own 12 car brands (including Porsche and Audi
[https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/brands-and-
models.html](https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/brands-and-models.html)). VW also
has a stake in Ionity and they own Electrify America and Electrify Canada.

If this charging technique really does work then I imagine VW will license it.

------
birdman3131
There is a fix for slow charging that is literally as fast as filling a tank
but nobody wants to use it. (I assume it is the same reason that there are
pages and pages of battery improvements that never make it to market.)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery)

~~~
lolc
The other fix would be swappable batteries. But it would require a huge
engineering effort.

~~~
bash-j
Why not fill up with loose cells? They are small, they roll. Couldn't they
roll into a ribbed tray and then a rail on both sides clamps them in place and
connects them? Or pulled in on a chain like a machine gun loading mechanism?

~~~
ovi256
This is an original idea that I haven't seen elsewhere.

The big issue is that assembling loose cells into a battery pack is a hard
enough operation. It must achieve good mechanical properties (the pack must be
rigid enough), good electrical contact with the battery terminals (bad contact
would ruin a pack, could start a fire as a bad contact could overheat) and
good cooling (battery packs heat, so afaik all designs use liquid cooling,
which needs very good thermal contact between the cells and the cooling
assembly). Loose cells would essentially mean you're feeding the loose cells
inside the pack and the pack has some robotic assembly arms that it uses to
put the cells in the right places while it achieves the three objectives.

With some different, taylor made cell design you could make this self-assembly
easier, maybe even make it mechanically passive - have the cells orient
vertically and slide into their places, and then they're locked. But the
current cell design is definitely not chosen for this.

~~~
acct1771
tailor-made, unless we're talking golf, ha

------
orky56
This could definitely revolutionize the electric car market by removing one of
the main complaints, slow charge time. The other pending issues for even
greater mass adoption are availability of charging stations & range. If charge
time decreases, the turnover of cars at stations could dramatically increase
thereby improving the economics of charging stations. We could see more
charging stations then and more quickly remove these barriers.

Has this AI approach been used in other charging applications? Curious to hear
more details on what's going on behind the scenes.

------
newman8r
If you could recharge while waiting in line for fast food, that would
eliminate the need to ever go to a 'gas station' at all. These guys should
partner with sonic or something, drive-in style.

------
nikanj
UBeam et al have demonstrated that flat out ignoring physics can be an
extremely reliable way to raise funding and score press visibility. Here’s
hoping this won’t end up on the same list.

------
popotamonga
Do people in the US take 15m to visit the pump?

~~~
frei
No, it's usually more like 5 minutes

~~~
stcredzero
When I'm on road trips with my friends, I can never get them out of a rest
stop faster than 25 minutes. When I'm on the road with my wife, 15 minutes is
about the right time.

~~~
Dylan16807
That's the time it takes to visit the convenience store. Relevant in some
circumstances, but if you're not already in need of a break you only visit the
pump and even five minutes is oddly slow. And the article and company site
specifically say the time to _fill the tank_ , not to visit a gas station. So
they're blatantly lying.

~~~
stcredzero
For my personal situation, I can't fill the tank in under 25 minutes on road
trips with my friends. So it works for me.

------
snazz
If this works as advertised, it’s super cool. However, my anecdotal experience
suggests that things that charge faster heat up, and I know that my phone
warms up significantly on with the “fast charger” it came with. Knowing that
batteries are potentially very volatile and prone to exploding and leaking,
how safe is this technology?

~~~
URSpider94
All modern EV’s except the Leaf have liquid-cooled battery packs with active
cooling from the radiator and the A/C compressor.

------
jartelt
Are there going to be any issues with peak demand charges from utilities
making fast charging cost prohibitive? I have to imagine that pulling that
much power from the grid will either be very expensive or will require some
grid upgrades to prevent issues.

------
kwhitefoot
The obsession with fast charging is getting tiresome.

Here in Norway we have more electric cars per head than anywhere else and most
people wake up to a fully charged car.

It is really rare to need to charge the car at a public charger unless you
have nowhere off road to park your car. What is most needed in most places is
somewhere to charge the car overnight or while you are at work. Such chargers
need no new technology, no extra infrastructure beyond a simple socket in a
post beside the road or in each parking space in car parks.

~~~
gwbas1c
Fast charging is needed for road trips, and for people who don't have access
to a charger at home. (Think about people who rent or who need to park on the
street)

------
dsd
Why don't we just do removable batteries?

~~~
hndamien
Company would have to own the batteries, users have no incentive to treat them
well. Tragedy of the commons.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
How does one treat a battery poorly?

I mean, I know in the abstract sense that it's ideal if they ever get fully
drained and, but that's not all _that_ catastrophic. I'd consider it normal
use in most cases—if manufacturers don't want the charge to ever dip that low,
they should make the battery stop working earlier.

~~~
hndamien
I presume you mean don't get fully drained. They also should not get fully
charged either. They could make the battery stop working earlier and limit
them from being filled, but this is going to limit a lot of one time use cases
when the trade off is worthwhile.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
> They could make the battery stop working earlier and limit them from being
> filled, but this is going to limit a lot of one time use cases when the
> trade off is worthwhile.

Which brings me back to my original question: how does one treat a battery
poorly? Or perhaps more accurately, how would people treat batteries they rent
more poorly than ones they own?

In a world where consumers were highly cognizant of maintaining battery
health, and only fully drained/charged their batteries when absolutely
essential, I can see how rented batteries would be a problem. In practice, I
doubt many consumers actually think about this, if they're even aware of it to
begin with.

Ergo, I don't forsee rented batteries dying significantly sooner than owned
batteries, because most consumers aren't going to change their behavior.

~~~
hndamien
I expect most people would fill up to 100% when not swapping.

------
gwbas1c
> as compared to 15 miles in 15 minutes today.

My Tesla Model 3 gets 75 miles in 15 minutes at the supercharger.

------
frostyj
Might be naive here, but isn't there some sort of limitation on the battery
side as well?

------
nathanaldensr
I hope people realize this "article" is nothing more than a PR puff piece.

------
lgleason
If a car's battery system is not set up for this kind of a charge rate (IE: it
maxes at 7.2 amp 240 volt level 2), there is no way their system can just
attach to your port and charge your car faster. There are on-board controllers
etc. that are controlled (for good reason), by the car/manufacturer that would
need to be bypassed.

