
Ask HN: How do you justify taking unpaid vacation as self employed? - Markoff
I am working from home and my workload steadily picked up over years currently almost reaching my limits working basically full time, some days 08-18 only with few minutes break for lunch.<p>I always enjoyed working from home for few hours and having much more spare hours than regular employees who have to sit in work no matter, if they have actual work or no.<p>But since I don&#x27;t wanna be potentially replaced by competition I haven&#x27;t taken vacation in years (that was not problem before since I was not that busy and could rest enough every day to have free morning or afternoon) and I don&#x27;t won&#x27;t to refuse any projects to miss on money I can&#x27;t imagine taking vacation, because I&#x27;m not gonna lose only vacation expenses, but also similar amount in lost income for every day I would not work.<p>Oh and I forgot to mention because of my partner company is in China I can&#x27;t follow even my European holidays (while living in Europe), meaning I worked even on Christmas, yesterday and today and have only few free days during CNY and October golden week (but none of them actually as long as in China since I get anyway more tasks in advance or some Chinese will give tasks to us even during Chinese holidays).<p>The best case scenario would be if my partner company decreased amount of projects, since I would be perfectly fine even with half money I earn in exchange for saving half of the work hours without me rejecting anything, but that doesn&#x27;t seem realistic.<p>So how would you justify taking unpaid vacation with family under such circumstances? As I see it now I will give family vacation, meaning wife and children can enjoy different place (beach) and I will work from hotel room, possibly finding few free hours in early morning or late afternoon and free weekend.
======
esotericn
How do I 'justify' taking unpaid vacation?

For me the question is entirely reversed. I have to justify to myself giving
up my time for a client or employer. The natural state is for me to fart
around, I wasn't put on this planet to commute to a cube.

I do it because it allows me to achieve my goals - things like having fun
experiences, donating to charity, helping out family and friends, being a
useful human.

If I did it 24/7 then those goals would fade into irrelevance because I'd have
no time to pursue any of them.

I had wrote a longer post, but I've edited it, because I think really this is
the key take-away. Do you work to live, or live to work?

------
CosmicShadow
Wow dude, if you've only got one client that you can't lose and they are slave
driving you then you are worse off than employed as everyone says.

Sounds like the client sucks if you can't slow down or stop or control
anything, dump them or start saying No. If you are going to lose out to the
competition by saying No, then it sounds like you aren't providing any real
value, you are just cheap labour that is replaceable and are getting paid
poorly and incorrectly for it.

The point of being self employed is so you can do whatever you want and own
your life. If you get good clients then you can get paid more, they can't
afford to lose you or easily switch because of the value you provide and are
willing to work with someone who has reasonable human needs. You can take
projects without hard fixed deadlines or with vacation time booked in and get
paid on the project, not by the hour or even day. If you provide real value,
they'll want you back for the next thing.

~~~
throwaway1982x
I agree. It sounds very much like an employment relationship - the fact that
you can't/don't feel able to choose your own projects is a big red flag here.

If this were a standard situation within Europe/the EU, I'm confident you
would be entitled to claim the rights of employment, including e.g. paid
holiday. It's possible that this right would extend to a Chinese employer,
although I'm not sure.

If you are genuinely self-employed, you should also have the freedom to employ
other people to cover your work.

------
song
If you are working for a single client and have such micro management that
your work is subdivided into tiny tasks and feel that rejecting it would be an
issue, then you are not really self employed, you are a remote worker...

Normally the typical advice when someone who is self employed has too much
work is for them to raise their rates, but this works much better if you have
more than one client since that does mean that you still have some clients to
fall back on otherwise...

For your specific situation, I'm not sure what to say, apart from advising you
to try to get out of this situation by 1) finding other better paying clients
and 2) slowly reducing the tasks you do for your current client to the more
value added tasks.

~~~
fierarul
+1

Also note that without some vacation you are slowly drained which leads to
less productivity which leads to no contract renewal. Burnout is also a real
risk.

I would use the vacation to perhaps find a 2nd customer even if for a few
billable hours/month, just to start another business relationship...

------
IkmoIkmo
Don't forget you work to live, you don't live to work.

Even if you love your work, you don't love it every moment of the day.

Sure, if you're close to a breakthrough invention to cure cancer, or have to
race the competition to the first patent, and this urgency is credible and has
a likely and credible high-payout in the end, you can crunch for a finite
amount of time. But just churning out one project after the other with no end
in sight, skipping holidays, makes absolutely no sense.

I'd take a holiday as soon as you can, talk to your company, and also look
beyond your company. There's plenty of us making a decent wage without working
like a 18th century factory worker that is denied a Christmas holiday. Working
for Chinese wages in a country with European costs also makes little sense to
me. There are surely other companies available to work for.

~~~
BrentOzar
> Don't forget you work to live, you don't live to work.

A variation that I first heard from Lori Edwards: "The people you really work
for are waiting for you at home."

~~~
balfirevic
You don't have to live to work even if there is no one at home.

------
danbmil99
This subject probably requires it's own HN post but let me just put this here
since it's on my mind.

There is a hierarchy of ways that you can provide value to a client. I call it
the TKPV ladder. Each letter represents what you provide in return for
compensation.

T stands for time. At this level, your client pays you by the hour, day, week,
or even minute. Your value is measured by the time you put in. This is the
lowest rung of the ladder. While you have some control over your allocation of
time (as opposed to with an actual job) this is not really much different in
principle than working at Walmart or Starbucks. You are a wage slave.

The next step up on the ladder is K, which stands for knowledge. If you can
promote your relationship with your clients to this rung, your value becomes
the knowledge, experience and ability you bring to the table, which is
measured by its value to the company, not by the number of minutes you've
slaved at a task.

The next rung on the ladder is P, which stands for product. At this stage, you
transition from selling knowledge and talent to selling a specific product or
service that wraps up the knowledge and talent that you and your team have
acquired into something you can sell to a customer, hopefully without too much
customization. And then sell to another customer, and so on. If you reach this
stage, you have productized your value in such a way that you can produce and
sell it at scale.

The final rung in the ladder is V, for vision. At this level, you take your
vision for future products and services to people who are in a position to
provide you capital and support to expand and scale your reach to its maximum
potential.

In my Consulting business, when I deal with clients, I try to keep this
hierarchy, TKPV in mind, with the goal of moving up the ladder at every
opportunity.

~~~
C1sc0cat
That's a really interesting insight thank you.

I am just putting some thoughts together for what we ought to be doing for the
big Enterprise SEO client we mostly work for.

I hope you wont mind if I borrow this

~~~
danbmil99
Please borrow it. In fact, steal it.

------
dustinmoris
You overthink it. Just take the goddamn break because quite frankly you need
it! If I was you I’d never take less than at least two weeks holidays at once.
Personally I’ve taken in total more than 3 months holiday in my last financial
year and I’ve achieved more than when I was only having 5 weeks a year
vacation many years ago. Don’t worry about competition. Presuming you’re doing
a highly skilled job from home nobody will be able to replace you in a cost
effective way if you take a few weeks off for vacation. Just the process of
finding someone, the time cost of other people having to deal with finding a
substitute and the onboarding, etc. all cost more than just wait for you to
come back. Also they already know you and if they are happy with your output
then there’s absolutely no way that you have to fear anything.

------
motohagiography
Useful heuristic: if you can't afford the risk of a vacation and the time to
find another gig, you are self enslaved, and not self employed.

~~~
sdegutis
For a Christian, the same situation could simply be trusting in Divine
Providence and not in ourselves or others for security (which so often fails
us anyway). In that case, it would be a virtue.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Huh? Could you explain with more detail what you mean?

~~~
sdegutis
The more you trust in God, the more he will make it clear that your victory is
caused by him, and remove all possibility for the explanation that it's just a
coincidence, or that you're doing it on your own.

When Gideon went up with 30,000 soliders against the Midianite army who had
65,000, God didn't want any of them thinking they would win because of their
own skill or strength. So he had Gideon tell the cowards to leave, and there
were only 10,000 left. Then God had Gideon tell them to drink at the river,
and the ones who rested leisurely next to the river and drank sufficiently, he
told them to leave. The rest who ran around and drank hurriedly, ready for
battle, God said to Gideon, "that's your army." Only 300 men. There's no
_human_ way they could win, but of course they did win.

Jesus fulfilled so many prophecies that there was a 82 x 10^120 chance that
anyone could fulfill them _all._ But of course, he did fulfill them all.

Our God is _the God of Unlikeliness._

Samson didn't always need extra strength. But at exactly the time he needed
it, it was said that he was filled with the spirit, which meant he didn't have
strength, but at the exact moment he needed it, God gave it to him, and for no
longer than that.

God does not do anything uselessly. God does not give extra. He gives just
enough, to prove that our victory comes from _him,_ and not us.

If one has total trust in God's Divine Providence, he may find himself in a
situation where there's no earthly way his needs will be provided for, and
then suddenly, at the last second, God will provide. Many of the Saints had
exactly this happen to them.

St. John Bosco, about 150 years ago, needed a certain sum of money by a
certain day, or everything would be closed down, and had no way of obtaining
it. The very day he needed it, a man came in as the Saint was praying, and
offered exactly that amount of money as an alms, not knowing about the
situation.

About 80 years ago, Venerable Fulton Sheen went on a trip to visit Lourdes in
honor of Our Blessed Lady, not having enough money for the hotel or to get
back. But he asked her to take care of it. And he chose the best hotel,
figuring if she could obtain a miracle, she could obtain a small one just as
well as a big one. So he went and stayed for 9 days, just as long as a Novena,
and on the last day, at night, when he was beginning to wonder how she would
take care of him, as Fulton Sheen was praying in the garden, a man came up and
asked him to accompany his family who were touring. He also said, "have you
paid your bill?"

And time would fail me to mention similar stories that happened to St. Francis
of Assisi, St. Benedict, St. Francis de Sales, St. Theresa of Calcutta, and
many others...

Our God is _the God of Last Minute Victory,_ lest anyone think it was his own
devising or cunning or planning or scheming that gave themselves the victory.

If a person had trust like these great Saints, they might find themselves in a
situation where they're living paycheck to paycheck, with no savings, no
retirement fun, no backup plan, only barely enough money for their essential
needs of life, and no guarantee of how long the work will last, and yet this
lasts for _years._

Because God works all things for the good of those who love Him, and God works
with those who love Him for the good of all things.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Got you, thanks.

>there was a 82 x 10^120 chance that anyone could fulfill them all //

That's a very specific figure, I'm curious where it comes from, or is it just
a hyperbolic way of saying "infinitesimal"?

Back to your original:

>In that case, it would be a virtue.

I think that it can be virtuous to trust when one is in the direst situation
to the providence of God (or maybe the providence of those God inspires?) but
once one has their daily needs I don't think God intends for us to dispense
with basic economies and - for example - not pay in to a pension, or save for
the future.

~~~
sdegutis
> That's a very specific figure, I'm curious where it comes from

I think it might have been from
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQObnw9A6A8&list=PLHr17i6CU5...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQObnw9A6A8&list=PLHr17i6CU5FgiHD3hI0k0PnCjrxdphNSG&index=7)
but either way, it comes from the number of prophesies and then some
statistical math.

> I think that it can be virtuous to trust when one is in the direst situation
> to the providence of God (or maybe the providence of those God inspires?)
> but once one has their daily needs I don't think God intends for us to
> dispense with basic economies and - for example - not pay in to a pension,
> or save for the future.

God wants people to give back to him according to their faith.

"The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who
sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do as he has made
up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful
giver. And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so
that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for
every good work." (2 Corinthians 9 -
[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9...](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9&version=RSVCE))

To those who want to go beyond regular virtue, Jesus says: "If you would be
perfect, go and sell all that you have, give to the poor, and come, follow
me." (Luke 18:18-22 -
[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18%3A18-22...](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18%3A18-22&version=RSVCE))

It all depends on a person's faith. The more trust they have in God, the more
God is pleased, and God refuses to let anyone down who trusts in him, so he
provides everything they need in life. People like St. Francis of Assisi and
St. Benedict gave up all material possessions and trusted solely in God's
Divine Providence, and God not only provided for their daily needs, but also
testified to their love for him by granting many miracles to them (which were
never selfishly asked, but always for the sake of helping neighbor).

Here's a story about God's Divine Providence to St. Benedict:
[https://archive.org/details/DialoguesGregoryTheGreatPopeSt.5...](https://archive.org/details/DialoguesGregoryTheGreatPopeSt.5089/page/n73)

Similarly, St. Anthony of Egypt (one of my favorite saints ever), who gave
away everything taking Jesus's words literally, it's an amazing story and
relatively short:
[http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm](http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm)

For me, God would not be pleased for me to abandon my way of life and sell all
that I have and give to the poor, because I'm the sole provider for a wife and
6 children. But these were single men who were not responsible for anyone, so
they made themselves responsible for everyone, praying and doing penance for
the sake of all those who won't pray and do penance for themselves. They sold
all their worldly goods and purchased spiritual goods, they bought the
spiritual field for the sake of the spiritual pearl buried in the midst of it.

------
PopeDotNinja
When I ran a business, I was afraid of taking a vacation, so I kept working
really hard without a break. One day I woke up and couldn't think straight. I
had worked myself stupid. So instead of taking a vacation, I simply called in
sick for a week and wasn't really in a position to enjoy it. So if you're
anything like me, in a sense you're going to take time off regardless. What
you need to drive is take a risk and hope everything will be OK. Try taking 2
days off and seeing what happens. Everything will probably be fine, and if
your company flies apart the second you step away, just know that was probably
gonna happen anyway.

~~~
tluyben2
I had that experience when I had a 1 person company (I had a software product
but it did not make enough to hire people; it did make enough for me to live
comfortably); I never dared to take off. When I finally did because it was
really needed, it almost destroyed the company and I decided to sell it
because this was not the intention.

~~~
PopeDotNinja
I decided a while ago that I wasn't going to start another business unless I
knew I'd be able to take time off. That means either providing a valuable
enough service that I'd have customers when I got back or that I'd have people
to keep the machine running while I was away. It's hard to get to the point
where you can do that!

------
kuon
I have been self employed for 20 years. I used to put my work first, and in
2012 I did a serious burnout and nearly died (common virus can make a LOT of
damage when you are exhausted).

So I changed my view of life. Now I consider myself on vacation all the time,
and work comes second. I work less and get roughly the same amount of money
because I plan projects better and select only the ones that pays well.

But my kids are first. For example, it's 11AM here and I am still playing with
my daughter and her Xmas duplo set she got. But after dinner I'll work for 4h
and be very productive because I am well rested and know exactly what I will
do.

The main thing is planning to not be overwhelmed. It takes time and also you
should not fear saying no or "it will take six month" to a customer. They are
also happier because I am more consistent and regular in my advancements.

Be well, and take care of yourself.

~~~
michaelgrafl
I still have trouble with giving time estimates that seem realistic to me when
I feel the customer will think it should be done in a shorter amount of time.

I hate this, because I turn out to take longer and have to push the dealine
back on short notice, which makes me feel awful. Especially when I knew from
the beginning that my estimate was very tight.

~~~
toyg
I have a similar problem. I’ve found some of it can be fixed by overquoting
and then leaving money on the table. You quote twice what you think you’ll
need, then make them pay what it actually took. If they push back on the
quote, shave a fourth of it max. If they still don’t budge, walk away - if a
customer is bent on short-changing you, there will be worse issues down the
line. After a couple of iterations of “I quoted 2x but it took 1.5x so here’s
an invoice just for that” they should have no problem trusting your quotes as
“worst case” scenarios and letting you free to manage deadlines as it suits
you. In the event of it actually taking 2x, just make sure you overdeliver in
some way - be it in the documentation for the delay, at worst.

The thing is, it’s ok to haggle and say No to a customer. A lot of them expect
your first quote will take advantage of them. There will be no hard feelings
after the negotiation, it’s just business.

Obviously then you have to manage yourself. That’s a bit harder, and very much
down to individual preferences and inclinations. Daily meditation in the
morning helped me in that area, but everyone is different.

------
davismwfl
Justifying taking time is easy, doing it is a little harder for a lot of
people. But justifying it, if you don't take time for yourself you will
implode (fail) and when you do you will lose your client(s) and all your
income. It is seriously that simple.

While I know it is that simple to justify, all of us that have been
consultants where our money is dependent on our time understand where you are
coming from, so you aren't alone in this. Based on your description though it
seems like you are scared of your client taking work away, if true, this is a
horrible client to have. The best way to solve this issue is to find a new
client. I am a little confused though as you also call them a partner company
so I am unclear what your relationship is, but either way it sounds unhealthy
and you need to change it. Either you need to set new expectations and new
boundaries or you need to find a new client and get away from them.

I always set boundaries at the beginning of an engagement, and I would always
set the expectation that if a contract was 3 months or longer that a developer
would take around 2 weeks of vacation. So even if the dev didn't take time
during that contract and did it after or before, the expectation was there so
everyone was on the same page. Plus good clients don't want you to burn out
because then they lose out on your services too. When you have a client that
doesn't respect you and you've allowed them to dominate you it will never end
well. You have to set clear boundaries and expectations early on, doing it
later is possible but it isn't easy.

Basically, if you don't fix this soon and take a little time, you will fail by
burning out which is much harder to overcome at that point, and can take much
longer to recover as well. So best to address this now and not wait.

~~~
Markoff
I'm quite sure they would not replace me just for one vacation per year,
though personally I would also prefer to work less overal and in that case I'm
not so sure they would not find rather someone else, because this job requires
extreme consistency in results.

And besides quality I guess one of the main reasons why they stick with me for
years (because they sure could find someone cheaper) is very fast response
time and basically zero downtime.

All in all I didn't complain about job, I just complained that my workload is
more than I would prefer and can't really do much about it. But mostly I was
looking for recommendation what would be the best way to take vacation under
these circumstances, if I should just take vacation and work during vacation,
hoping to find few free hours in morning or afternoon or sacrify completely
lost income (though I think that would make me uncomfortable knowing I am
doing nothing throwing money I could earn out of window and someone else is
earning them possibly building position for himself to replace me).

------
xapata
Increase your hourly rate until the demand for hours decreases to the level
you prefer.

~~~
jacquesm
That works if the OP has many different customers. But the easiest way to
raise prices is with new customers.

~~~
cameroncf
If OP has only one customer they do not work for themselves, they work for
that customer and have a job - regardless of what they like to tell
themselves.

~~~
switz
I'm not sure this logic follows. I generally take on one client at a time,
sometimes for many months (even years, on occasion). I've ended gigs that I
was unhappy with, and I've stayed on contracts for extended periods of time.

I still make my own hours and have relative freedom to operate how I please,
despite only having one client at a time.

~~~
freeopinion
Your mother-in-law says you keep erratic hours and job hop a lot.

Your resume says you own and operate a consulting business.

~~~
anon73044
Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other

------
stephenr
> I don't won't to refuse any projects to miss on money

> I would be perfectly fine even with half money I earn

Wut? Either you're willing to work more hours and receive more money, or
you're willing to work less hours and receive less money. They're literally
mutually exclusive.

You can't _genuinely_ want both things.

~~~
Markoff
if I start rejecting projects they will find someone else and I will have
nothing to reject in the end, not even that half I would be fine with. it
doesn't work that easily that I can just limit how much work I take without
repercussions (it already happened in past, but not because of rejecting
reason)

and yes, there is also the money reasoning why not to reject something if it's
still within my limits, although I rejected rarely some tasks, but it's like
<5 out of maybe 200-300 I get per month

~~~
stephenr
> if I start rejecting projects they will find someone else

... Which you're basing on:

> it doesn't work that easily that I can just limit how much work I take
> without repercussions (it already happened in past, but not because of
> rejecting reason)

If it's true that they won't accept anything less than 12 hour days with zero
down time, then you're better off working elsewhere.

~~~
Markoff
it's not 12 hours day, on bad day (usually monday and friday) is 8-10 hours of
actual work, on good days (which are very rare recently) 3-4 hours, but
usually I work between 5-7 hours (with some gaps between) plus I have free
weekends most of the time and maybe 10 days of Chinese holidays spread over
year

If I worked as full time employee here in Europe, I would spend 9-10 hours in
work each day including commuting but with lot of spare time just
sitting/resting in work plus 5 weeks of paid vacation, but also my salary
would be like 20-30% of what I have as self employed working from home, nobody
can offer me what I have in this company, so I wanna bank on this while it's
available, because I'm sure it won't last forever (though I had this attitude
already years ago and I'm still doing it with more work)

my main (if not only) issue is lack of continous vacation, I was just asking
in OP how to justify taking it under these circumstances, if you are willing
to spend let's say 4000USD on short vacation and another 2-3000USD on lost
income, if I didn't work in hotel room. I just can't justify completely stop
working even without worrying to be replaced

~~~
esotericn
4000 USD is a fairly lavish holiday.

I consider myself fairly well off and that's roughly what I'd spend in two
months.

------
bryanrasmussen
I'm wondering if your job is worthwhile, the rule I always go for is that
self-employed one should make twice as much per hour / or per month if working
full time as one would if employed by a company.

If you are making twice as much you should be able to afford a vacation and
just do it. If your family is anything like mine they would like to go on a
vacation as well.

------
jthistle
Increase your prices.

You may be afraid to lose business, and that could be the case if the partner
company is your only source of clients.

I did freelance consulting for a long time, and each time I found myself
overwhelmed like you I increased my prices. I did lose some clients, but
overall I made more money for doing less work.

------
jskrablin
Am in similar situation. Working remote as a contractor, nearly full time.
However I do observe my local holidays and take at least a whole unpaid month
off per year.

There are two very good reasons for it - one is family and the other is my
health. No amount of money can replace not being around my wife and child. The
other reason is health (both physical and mental). I am of no use to anyone if
I am burned out and half crazy. If your current partner company doesn't
understand that - GTFO.

------
ilamont
Self-employed, but it's not in software.

Like you, I have way too much to do and not enough time to do it all. But one
of the great tools in our arsenals is _flexibility_. It makes it possible to
radically adjust the when, where, what, and how aspects of our jobs:

 _when_ \- I do most of my work in the afternoon and evening. I may also do a
few hours on Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays. I rarely work in the morning,
and schedule all calls to take place late.

 _where_ \- I usually work at home, but also work outside (libraries, in my
car while waiting for kids' activities to end, etc.). I do take my laptop with
me on vacation just to keep things going. A few times I have done longer
stints abroad, working FT but enjoying life in another country.

 _what_ \- I choose what to work on, new projects to launch, and what can
languish. If something is not generating revenue or is too troublesome, I will
make adjustments accordingly (killing project, hiring a contractor to maintain
it).

 _how_ \- No one tells me how to get the work done. That's my call.
Increasingly, I have been outsourcing things I don't like to do or don't do so
well.

One other thing: I have set up a monthly payroll, so I get paid regardless of
how much or how little I do. That is, there is no "unpaid vacation."

I have operated my own business for 7 years.

------
Scarblac
You don't sound self employed, you sound employed by them.

------
kelnos
What's the point of working so much if you don't take the time to actually
enjoy your life?

How does your family tolerate you basically spending no time with them? I
can't imagine that you have a healthy relationship with them.

For me, it's the opposite: my time is precious, and if I'm going to be
spending it in the service of others, I need to be well-compensated for it.
And even then, there are limits.

------
abtinf
The purpose of work is to live the best life you can live in pursuit of your
values. Money is necessary component of work, but not the essential factor.

> I'm not gonna lose only vacation expenses

By framing spending on recreation as a "loss", you have foreclosed your mind
from even thinking about it rationally. Recreation is essential to man's life.

> also similar amount in lost income for every day I would not work.

Again, you are framing the issue in terms of loss. Money you don't make while
on vacation is not lost income--it is not a thing you have that you lose. It
is merely unearned.

> unpaid vacation

There really is no such thing as "paid vacation". Vacations are never paid for
anyone. Some people have "holiday pay" or "PTO" or "vacation hours" or "sick
hours", but those are all misnamed--they are earned from working and are
factored into total compensation (all benefits are paid for by the employee's
wages; greater benefits mean lesser wages).

> As I see it now I will give family vacation, meaning wife and children can
> enjoy different place (beach) and I will work from hotel room, possibly
> finding few free hours in early morning or late afternoon and free weekend.

Why do you think you are unworthy of vacation, that it is something to only be
given to others? And, in practical terms, your plan will almost certainly lead
to resentment and regret between you, your spouse, and your children. You will
be thinking of the experience as a loss and sacrifice, your partner will feel
lonely (the purpose of vacation is to recreation and rejuvenation of oneself
_and_ one's relationships), and you will miss out on shared unusual
experiences with your kids.

The first question isn't how to justify a vacation or what kind of vacation to
take. The first question is: Why do you want to take a vacation?

------
dsr_
This sounds like you only have one customer. That's your problem. If you had
six or seven customers, you would have leverage to negotiate with them.

As the situation stands, you would be happy with less money for less time --
that means that you might be in a position to hire an employee to do some of
the work for you.

~~~
Markoff
I think you missed that I'm already at limits of my workload with one customer
(no time for more) who pays me more than competition (even per task they could
find cheaper people), actually my local competition without this contact I
have because of my past relations charge basically half of what I charge and
yes I am considering subcontracting someone, seem like best solution, but I'm
still avoiding it until I can manage it by myself

------
meerita
I did quite few things:

1\. Getting better at work. I do things x10 faster and better than when I
started. That releases me of spending more hour. 2\. Be pragmatic with the
solutions. 3\. I don't accept any job that is not well defined. 4\. I do
allocate time for me: gym, bycicle, etc.

~~~
dustinmr
Seems like an important detail to number one is to properly manage the way
that gets presented to the client.

In the OPs case it sounds like if they do that, they won’t realize a benefit.
Their client will expand the work to fill the available time.

I do the same to myself often. It’s hard to avoid.

------
NicoJuicy
I have done something similar, more hours but in less time. . You are already
noticing a problem, that's good.

Taking your holidays shouldn't be a problem. Talk to the partner company and
mention the European holidays.

There are different ways to do this, the honest one is telling upfront.

If your partner is not understanding, mention that you are going to work only
from a co-working space, because of trouble working from home.

The co-working space isn't open on European holidays.

If all else fails, change endeavours. You are in Europe, not China. Plenty of
IT-jobs here who respect work/family.

Ps. The elephant in the room is not finding work, it's for your partner
company to find trustworthy/skillful contractors.

------
kerkeslager
> So how would you justify taking unpaid vacation with family under such
> circumstances?

Frankly, the circumstances are irrelevant. There isn't a set of circumstances
that makes you not a human being with a right to leisure time, and a _need_
for leisure time.

You don't need to justify this. It's an inherent human right and need, and
everyone knows that. If they claim some other reasoning outweighs that,
they're screwing you over, and there isn't a reason for you to tolerate it.
You have the power to not tolerate it. They can't _make_ you work, so don't.
There are other clients.

Ultimately, this isn't actually a choice you have. What you're doing isn't
sustainable. If you don't take time for yourself, you'll eventually have a
burnout and that time will be taken for you, in a much more unpleasant way.
It's better to acknowledge facts and take the time for yourself before it's
taken for you.

Besides, why are you working anyway? I don't work for the sake of work, I work
so I can do what I love doing. It sounds like you'd like to spend more time
with your family. If your work doesn't support that, find work that does.

Frankly, I've worked with people like this, and even after I set proper
boundaries, I'm constantly having to defend them, which I don't want to do.
I've found it a lot more pleasant to work with clients who don't have boundary
issues.

------
SkyPuncher
If you only look at life as a balance sheet, you will only experience life
that way.

When I contracted, I set my rates and anticipated annual hours to include (1)
holidays (2) vacations (3) a bit of sick time (4) un-paid work (like finding
new clients). I could always make more by working more, but I didn't want to.

\------

It's really no different that a salaried job. I could take "vacation" from a
salary job to work on a side-gig, but I don't because that would be
exhausting.

Budget for money, budget for time off, take the time off.

~~~
Markoff
that's rational approach except I am not paid per hour, but per job, not that
it would change things much, it all comes down to that if I know there are
money to earn I don't value my spare time at as much as I earn, especially
considering that this won't last longterm and when it's gone I will have
plenty of time doing nothing (read working as regular employee for peanuts)
with no option to earn that much

in regular job as employee with fixed salary you have paid vacation by law and
it's standard for almost all employees, same as it's standard that almost none
of them work during vacation and local bank holidays and most of their
salaries are shit

in recent months I earn on average 5 times more than is average income in my
city (even more if you consider median), so you can see my conundrum why I
don't want to give up on such income even during vacation. if I would be
earning as much as majority of people, even majority of people in my field
(still more than double) I would care about lost income during vacation much
less than I care in current situation

~~~
tartoran
Automate your job and where you can’t, just delegate work remotely to workers
in other countries such as Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine (you can find cheaper
good quality labor in this countries). Remove all the references so you don’t
get undercut and forward all the finished work as if you did it yourself.
You’d still have to “approve” the work but that’d take way much less of yout
time.

~~~
Markoff
my job requires knowledge of local language/market, so I can use only people
from my home country

------
smdz
08-18 with small breaks is not unhealthy, if you have made sure that it
doesn't slowly turn into 08 to 00 hours.

You have been working for years and you deserve a vacation. But first answer
what is making you chase the money. If you already have 3 years of
expenses/outgoing backup (without inflation) - you are worrying too much. It
might last 2 years with expenses, any inflation and leisure trips. If you do
not have 6 months of backup, evaluate your financial situation, set a target
date for a vacation and take a break anyways.

Second, why do you think you could be potentially replaced by competition? Is
it that easy to replace you? It may not be as easy as you think. Try hiring
for at least 80% of your capacity and you will know. If it is easier to
replace you then the better option is to become a company/agency, hire people
and expand your agency's capacity.

Third, if you take all projects that come your way - either your rates are too
cheap and you need to increase - or you are exceptionally talented. In the
latter case, demand for you will not die if you take a short vacation and/or
defer some work. Don't plan for a long vacation like month or two, because it
turns out to be boring and less fulfilling beyond 10-14 days.

With family, you might want to try out vacations at nonseasonal times if that
works with the family.

When you do not take a vacation - you and your family will end up frustrated
with any amount of money you bring in via that work. You might end up hating
work at some point and will end up with some stupid decision.

------
mrandish
I've been on the other side of this managing a team of developers that was a
mix of employees and contractors. The contractors would coordinate with the
project manager to schedule their vacations.

Obviously, you need to discuss this with your employer (I call them 'employer'
because they are your only gig and full-time). I doubt they expect you to
never take any time off, so it shouldn't come as a surprise and they should
respond rationally if you approach it with no immediate deadline. For example:
"sometime in the next few months I'd like to schedule some time off and I want
to work with you to ensure minimal disruption to the business." If you are
willing and it would be helpful to them, you can offer to check email once a
day while on vacation for any urgent blocking issues.

You mentioned being worried about competition usurping your work if you take
time off. It's unclear if you're doing work where there are instant drop-in
identical replacements to you readily available. Since you're wall-to-wall
busy with work it seems that your role is important and you mentioned that
you'd take less money for less work, so you're pretty well-paid. I guess I
don't understand because roles for which there are instant drop-in identical
replacements aren't usually high earning. If what you do is so mission-
critical that they'll have to replace you with another contractor if you're
unavailable for a scheduled-in-advance week, then it's likely you have job-
specific knowledge and skills that can't be easily replaced by a new
contractor in a week. Which is why they should be willing to work with you to
coordinate your vacation and minimize disruption.

------
wayanon
There are alternative employment opportunities out there. You shouldn’t have
negotiate for time with your family - this is a form of bullying by your
employer.

~~~
Markoff
not with income I have, I earn 5 times my city average income and 2-3 times my
position average income and I'm prety sure this won't last for much more
years, so I want to bank on it

if I would earn much less I would value mu spare time much more than I value
it now currently with this opportunity, I don't know anyone who bought their
first apartment without mortgage and help of parents in my age and is planning
to buy second soon in same conditions

~~~
tluyben2
I'm sure you did think about this, but are you calculating this 2-3x fairly? I
notice many people don't. Especially (disgruntled) EU people who think they
make very little compared to their US counterparts in tech. In the EU, when
you are comparing your self employed income with published averages for your
city for that position, you are usually comparing apples and pears. When self
employed, you need to deduct _a lot_ of things that are automatic when you are
not self employed; depending on which country in the EU you live in, we are
talking about pension plan payments, healthcare (insurance or similar which is
mandatory in most EU countries in one way or another), vacation money (which
is what this is about), insurance for when you (for some reason) cannot work
anymore or get fired (which I don't think is in all countries, but at least
here that's included), sick day money, 13th month (mandatory in some
countries), bonus, social benefits, car (if needed), computer, phone, home
office, travel cost (if needed), taxes, etc. I have been making 'US type'
money being self employed for decades, but if you count all of the above, I
don't make that much more than what a similar position does in my EU country
with a regular job (comparing just the numbers, I make 2.5x more and that 2.5x
is almost exactly all the above costs). Still I like it better, so I will
never stop. Sure you can choose to ignore many of these factors, but then it's
simply not a fair comparison.

Also, and again, i'm sure you thought about this, but for the other people
reading this; in the EU in many (all?) countries, if you only have one client
as a self employed person, the state could see you as an ad-hoc employee of
that company, which means that that company actually has to pay for all kinds
of taxes/social security (depends on the country) and if they don't, you will
have to. This would 'ok', but in many countries I have worked in as freelancer
or self-employed, paying these like that are far higher than if you manage it
all yourself.

------
duxup
I think one of the hardest things about small businesses is saying no, finding
good clients, and firing bad clients...but if you don't you're going to pay
for it with time or etc.

I worked for a company that just before I joined turned down what looked like
a jackpot. Millions, possibly tens of millions in revenue.

The reason, it was too much work for their team, and despite the bags of money
being offered it wasn't clear the company offering the business were quite on
the ball, something was off and they said no.

Another small company said yes. They got a windfall of cash, grew...6 months
in and they were a big success story...and in 18 months had lost their past
customers because they knew they had been put on the back burner, their own
people quit because they were working like you are, and the client was
endlessly upset because of unrealistic expectations and a real power imbalance
in terms of setting goals and realistic planning was out the window.

In short if you can't take vacation...you need better client(s).

------
simmons
I've been self-employed for 20 years, and the idea that I would need to
_justify_ vacation is honestly a bit foreign. I assume that I'm going to be
taking vacations, and if a customer has specific availability needs, then
that's just something that needs to be negotiated. If a potential customer
would only accept continuous work with no vacation, I imagine I'd pass. It's
important to bill at a rate high enough that unpaid vacation is covered, and
bench time between gigs is covered. (After all, employers budget for their
employees to take vacation, so you should also budget similarly.)

When you bill by the hour, it's natural to start thinking of everything in
terms of lost time and money. And I actually think it's reasonable to think
about the cost of taking time off, but if this is keeping you from taking
vacation and spending time with your family, then you are severely
undervaluing your time off. You can think of time off as a sort of cost, but
it's a very small cost compared to the value it provides.

I don't have experience with working for customers in different cultures and
across international borders, so I'm afraid I don't have any insight there. If
I was in that situation, I think it would still come down to negotiating the
vacation that I need.

I also don't have much experience with juggling several (>2) projects at once.
In my experience, people seldom need just a _little_ software engineering. If
someone wants some software engineering, they usually want a LOT of it and
don't want to compete for your time with other projects. So I tend to work on
one project at a time, take vacations, and when the gig comes to an end, I
look forward to taking a few months off to study.

So I suppose if I was in your shoes, I would insist on vacation, and not worry
too much if I lost a customer that wanted to burn me out. (I acknowledge that
working in the software industry puts me in a rather privileged position where
I can be picky.)

------
brookside
> I don't won't to refuse any projects to miss on money I can't imagine taking
> vacation, because I'm not gonna lose only vacation expenses, but also
> similar amount in lost income for every day I would not work.

Sounds like you are being consumed by greed and fear.

------
mnm1
When you get cancer or some other malady from what you're currently doing to
yourself, you'll wish you'd have justified that vacation. How do I justify it?
By any means necessary to avoid the cancer or other malady that stress is
guaranteed to give me.

------
aliswe
Why not hire someone who can take a bit of your burden?

------
sys_64738
To avoid burn out. I always take 1 week of vacation per quarter and don't work
more than 45 hours per week. As you get older your time is more important than
the next dime. You can't take money with you after you depart this life.

------
zimbatm
> But since I don't wanna be potentially replaced by competition I haven't
> taken vacation in years (that was not problem before since I was not that
> busy and could rest enough every day to have free morning or afternoon) and
> I don't won't to refuse any projects to miss on money I can't imagine taking
> vacation, because I'm not gonna lose only vacation expenses, but also
> similar amount in lost income for every day I would not work.

I think that's the key: afraid.

Having too much work is actually a good thing! It means that you can afford to
increase your prices. Then use that extra money and go on holiday.

~~~
alexpapworth
Correct. How much are you charging per hour at the moment? Consider doubling
it.

------
alehander42
Mate, life, mental health and time with your family is much much much much
much much much much much much much more important than a particular job and
work.

I am not kidding by pasting `much` so many times, please try to look this from
a completely different angle: kids really need actual attention from their
parents and all those "vacation but daddy works in the hotel room all the
time" are painful .. I am saying it as a guy who also has problems with
working in free time ..

You don't have to "justify" this to your clients, you have options, please try
to look at things differently(and they're not guilty,

------
peglasaurus
If youre self employed and can't take a day off then you are running your
business poorly.

Why? Because your disaster recovery plan hasn't been tested. Thats a
significant risk.

That and your work/life balance is probably broken as well.

------
sacman08
It’s difficult. I had a job before where I could work from home and they told
me it was only 40 hours a week but I really ended up working more like 70
hours. Also got calls over night and worked on holidays too. The best approach
IMO would be to plan it six months or more out because it would give the
customers time to know you will be take some time with plenty of notice. Then
talk it up when you interact, not like a robot repeating I will be off during
the week etc., rather talk about how you excited to get a chance to go visit
whatever with the family.

------
graeme
A self employed person generally has multiple clients, can control their hours
and tools, and so on. Those self employed people who do work constantly will
generally have high enough rates they can take time off.

You’re not self employed in that sense. You’re quasi employed, but without any
of the protections of being an employee.

The only positive thing you said about this arrangement is you had downtime.
But now you’ve lost that, and work more hours, and yet are still not earning
enough to take time off.

Why, exactly, are you doing this? You only have one life. There must be
alternatives.

------
HeavenFox
Semi-related, I think the OP doesn’t give him/herself enough credit. Frankly,
given then relative abundance of talent in China (1.4 billion population with
general preference towards STEM subjects is no joke) and relatively cheap cost
(you can hire a junior swe for probably $30-40k/year), there must be a reason
the Chinese company decided to partner with you, an European living in a
different time zone and speaking a different language. Take your vacation.
Charge more. You probably have more leverage than you think.

------
qrbLPHiKpiux
The most important person is you, and you need to take care of yourself,
first.

If you’re close to 100% and not burned out, when working, you’ll thrive.

I only learned this 12 years in. I’m on year 16 now.

------
bamboozled
You just realise that if you worked for someone else, then you’d be paying for
these holidays in one way or another. It would be factored into your salary
somehow. You just just need to do the same for yourself.

Also, taking breaks can feel uncomfortable if your not used to the feeling of
freedom, start small and work your way up to taking longer breaks. You will
find the rest will make you more valuable as you’ll likely be more effective
if you’re rested.

------
raintrees
To avoid burnout and still be "able" to work in the future? I agree with the
sentiment that "justifying" time off is coming at it from the wrong angle.

Work/life balance is important. We can only go so long before our quality of
work begins to suffer, along with our mental health.

Seek out more clients, raise your rates, and sub-contract the more
menial/unpleasant parts of what you do, would be the ways I would look at
addressing this.

------
Bayart
Sounds like you're being willingly worked to the bone.

As far as I'm concerned, the point where making more money doesn't increase
your quality of life but reduces it is where it needs to stop and you look
well past it. The point of self employment is not having to justify your life
style, including vacations.

If I were you I'd look for a different employer or rework my business and
split my time between a number of them.

------
yulaow
Sorry if I am being that explicit but I would consider myself a slave, not a
self-employed, if I had to follow that work rythm you just described

------
olalonde
I never understood people who are that obsessed with work and money. When I
was self employed I'd only work when I _needed_ money, which didn't amount to
much time at all. I am at the other end of the spectrum. Unless I'm working on
something I'm truly interested in or need the money, I find it hard to justify
taking work over vacations.

~~~
stingraycharles
I’m not sure about OP, but for me it’s mostly about risk tolerance. As your
income source is much less stable, and you are exposed to much more risk if
you have health problems, it means you need to do much more careful financial
planning. Naturally, this implies building a decent savings account, and it
also means it’s more difficult to take time off (“if I know for sure I have a
client right now, wouldn’t it make sense to wait with vacation until it dries
up?”).

------
Spooky23
You budget working 46-50 weeks a year and get it in your contract. Most people
whom I know who are happy with contracting have multiple clients and assume a
certain amount of bench time.

Call it professional development or whatever you need to. Build your rate card
around that timeframe. If that’s not acceptable, you need to think about what
you want and work towards that.

------
rmah
You have stated that 1) you make far more than you need; 2) the workload is
too high and that 3) consistency and response time are important to the
client. If you are truly concerned that taking time off will lead to problems
with the client, then the solution is to hire someone to help you. But take a
vacation before you go nuts.

------
Digit-Al
If you need to 'justify' taking a break then think on this. Working the hours
you do, non-stop, without break, is massively increasing your risk of either
burnout, a mental breakdown, or a stroke. The mind and body can only take so
much. Take a break fool, you can't look after your family if you collapse from
overwork.

------
PaulAJ
It sounds like your work consists of one contract for this company in China.
That makes you vulnerable. You need to find other contracts. Once you have
four or five lines of income you will be a true freelancer.

------
z3t4
You need to listen to yourself. This will probably continue for a long time,
and it will affect your relationships, so be prepared to make scarifies.

------
cheez0r
I save money until I have enough saved that I can afford to take the desired
time off, and then I buy my own time and pay myself to relax. ;)

------
lgats
Would your clients allow you to subcontract the work out? That way you can
keep taking the full load with minimal additional work.

~~~
Markoff
it should be possible, but it's too much hassle to organize it just for
vacation, while I can still manage workload

------
freeopinion
If you can justify taking off 80-128 hours out of 168 per week, surely you can
justify taking off 10 out of 365 days in a year.

------
Pete-Codes
You need to rest! You'll do better work with a clear mind.

------
drewdas95
A wide man once said..Treat yo self

------
virmundi
I'll take a contrarian view: don't take time off. You need to change your mind
set as to what you think is valuable. Having traveled, study abroad and at
home, I find the whole idea of time off to be utterly ridiculous. Live is
meaningless. Therefore just work. It provides mental stimulation. It keeps you
from having idle hands. Ultimately its as equally valid an exercise as
vacation.

If your spouse and kids wish to vacation, send them on their way. Given your
information above, they should have ample funds to fritter away their useless
time. To each their own. If you travel with them, great. Have a nice dinner
and perhaps go dancing after your long day.

~~~
alehander42
People shouldn't turn work into an idol! Work itself has no inherent moral
value and workaholism can be more dangerous than many other addictions. Life
isn't meaningless, I hope you can see things differently soon enough :)

~~~
virmundi
You seem to have a Judeo-Christian background based on the "idol" statement
combined with not viewing life as meaningless. I refer you to Ecclesiastes.
Everything is grasping at smoke (meaningless).

"5:18 I have seen what is best for people here on earth. They should eat and
drink and enjoy their work, because the life God has given them on earth is
short. 19 God gives some people the ability to enjoy the wealth and property
he gives them, as well as the ability to accept their state in life and enjoy
their work. 20 They do not worry about how short life is, because God keeps
them busy with what they love to do."

If that means eating and drinking while working so be it. There is no point to
life. Vacationing is just as empty as working. At least with working something
is accomplished.

Burn out is due to a tension in the person's mind between knowing that they
only have work and the desire to have fun. When you make work fun, the tension
dissolves. That's not to say you shouldn't unwind. Every engine needs a chance
to cool off. Rather, you should realize the cool down period is only a few
hours, which is well within OP's time availability.

~~~
alehander42
Great reference! But I feel that's not exactly what Ecclesiastes means ..
because it seems you ignore the context and the rest of the Bible in this
hypothesis:

meaningless, vanity, this is what life without God, life focused only on the
material, physical reality "under the sun" looks like: “1:14 I have seen
everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a
striving after wind.".

That's what focusing on the temporary leads to.

And even opening the New Testament, you can see Corinthians 4:18 "So we fix
our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is
temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

The message of the gospel is full with hope: it doesn't teach that "There is
no point to life." and that life itself is meaningless .. as what is
temporary, is not the important part of life at all.

In this sense, most jobs is often focused on the temporary and we shouldn't
idolize them, as it's sadly easy to addict to work. And of course: I think
it's great to enjoy your job and to find fun in it, but to keep in mind it's
just one aspect of earthly life, and not an ultimate goal. It's not something
to "obsess" on. And "accomplishments" are a very subjective thing.

------
caymanjim
Your job sucks. You should stop it immediately and find something else to do.

------
JoeAltmaier
Find a new client

------
daedlanth
I'm like Nike, I just do it.

