
Unsealed Filing Shows DOJ Misled Appeals Court About NSL Gag Orders - sinak
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/unsealed-filing-shows-doj-misled-appeals-court-about-national-security-letter-gag
======
r0h1n
Provisions in the law the gag participants from even talking about a violation
of their rights are particularly insidious. Sure, they're Kafka-esque, but
they also affect the poor, small and marginalized disproportionately.

What is a small business or private citizen to do if they cannot even talk
about how they're being wronged against? How will they solicit the support of
others? How will they use the free media/press (meant to be a bulwark against
injustice) to publicize their cause?

This isn't isolated to just the NSA/FBI/DoJ, or the US alone. Ag-gag laws [1],
"super injunctions" [2] and "secret trials" [3] are all examples of this
dangerous trend.

[1] -
[http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/06/agricul...](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/06/agriculture-
gag-laws-press-freedom)

[2] - [http://www.lawteacher.net/human-rights/essays/super-
injuncti...](http://www.lawteacher.net/human-rights/essays/super-injunction-
used-to-gag-investigative.php)

[3] -
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27806814](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27806814)

~~~
dmix
There was a particularly apt quote from UK's former homeland security
spokesman:

> Secret court hearings will hand a major propaganda victory to terrorists, a
> former security adviser to David Cameron has warned. Senior Tory MP Patrick
> Mercer said he had ‘grave’ concerns about the Government’s plans, which he
> warned would erode centuries of open justice.

> The former Army officer, who served as the party’s homeland security
> spokesman until 2007, also claimed the measures would succeed in destroying
> British values – effectively doing the terrorists’ job for them

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2126374/Secret-
court...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2126374/Secret-courts-hand-
victory-terrorists-David-Camerons-ex-security-adviser-warns-PM.html)

It's a shame that American lawmakers did not come to a similar conclusion,
that secret courts and rulings erode the values of a free and open society.

~~~
chii
> secret courts and rulings erode the values of a free and open society.

secret courts allow the appearance of a free and open society whilst actually
enacting draconian practices without fear of reprisal.

------
themartorana
What happens if someone went on CNN/whatever and just went "so we got this
NSL..."

Guantanamo?

I'm a bit surprised someone hasn't simply opened their mouths. I applaud the
EFF and everyone fighting this fight. Money is free speech but you can't talk
about super-aggressive and highly-invasive (probably unconstitutional) NSLs
even to say you got one.

So utterly bizarre and disheartening. Although maybe disenfranchisement is
half of the point.

~~~
higherpurpose
I'm still angry at Marissa Mayer for saying that if she could go to prison
over something like this. That's just not something I would expect a CEO of
such a major corporation to say. FFS, US is not China (yet). She shouldn't put
fear into everyone's hearts with that kind of statement, especially since I
believe it was mostly baseless.

~~~
discardorama
Have you heard of Joe Naccio?
[http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_25434854/former-
qwest-...](http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_25434854/former-qwest-ceo-
nacchio-claims-tv-his-jail)

------
toufka
The argument was an odd one to begin with. The government argued that it was
not stifling speech because you could say, "I have received between 0 and 249
NSLs, and here's what I think about NSLs..."

You could not, however say, "I have received between 0 and 249 NSLs and here's
what I think about NSLs (and I should know because I got one)...

If it's not true that someone can complain about NSLs generically, then there
is an odd position where one can comment on facts or opinions about NSLs
precisely until one actually has experience to support facts or opinions about
NSLs.

~~~
aragot
Correct, how can we confident the gag orders don't require AmaGooSoft to
pretend they received fewer NSLs than they did?

------
matteotom
I've been wondering this for a while now, can I set up a Twitter account that
automatically tweets ever day "MatteoTom has never received a NSL/a gag
order", and if I ever do receive one, stop sending the tweets?

Can the FBI/DOJ/whoever require me (or Twitter) to continue to send out the
tweets? Or is it somehow illegal for me to set up such an account in the first
place?

~~~
java-man
You don't get it. THEY are unconstrained by law.

~~~
matteotom
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. The idea is that I would confirm
that (NSLs received >= 1) by not saying that (NSLs received == 0).

~~~
java-man
The programmer's logic does not apply here. When you lie, you go to jail or
worse. When they lie, they get promoted.

------
higherpurpose
At this point why doesn't _everyone_ assume DoJ/law enforcement is
_misleading_ in Court? That should be the default, and their statements should
_always_ be thoroughly checked.

------
logn
The government has nothing to lose. They can print money and write new
loopholes into laws. There need to be class action lawsuits against every
corporation complicit in crimes against the public. If I can get paid for Red
Bull promising me wings, I can certainly sue Google for using a sealed
envelope as the logo for Gmail.

~~~
_up
Then don't ever use Google new "Inbox" because they choose an open envelope as
the logo.

------
zaroth
Everywhere it says 'quality' I think it's supposed to say 'quantity'. This was
quite confusing, since the world 'quality' appears throughout (and a total of
4 times) but the word 'quantity' appears only once at the 2nd to last quote,
and even then it's contradictory;

    
    
      There’s nothing that says that they can’t comment, they’re
      allowed to make specific comments about _quantity_, there’s
      absolutely no ban on them commenting on the _quality_ of those
      they’ve received.
    

Or is it actually that the argument was over commenting on the "quality" of
the NSL, and if so, what does that even mean?

------
beedogs
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Eric Holder's DoJ is the worst we'll see in
our lifetime.

~~~
bediger4000
Alberto Gonzalez and John Ashcroft give stiff competition there. Google for
"alberto gonzales jane harman". I'm still puzzled about why that story didn't
get any traction.

Anyway, I think you're optimistic.

------
java-man
Still, more truthful than the Honorable Director Clapper...

