
Does Automating the Metro Save Money? (2017) - luu
http://www.cat-bus.com/2017/07/automation-metro/
======
jbay808
> The problem with automation is that in order to create a completely
> unattended system, the industry best practice is to install platform screen
> doors to ensure that nobody can ever enter the tracks.

What...? The problem with non-automated metros is the same! Either way, best
practice is to have doors for safety. Several train stations in Tokyo have
doors/gates, despite those lines having drivers. Meanwhile, Vancouver's
automated metro has no gates protecting the tracks, but a generally good
safety record nonetheless. The attendants are mainly there to deal with issues
that gates wouldn't solve anyway: medical emergencies, confused passengers
needing directions, drunk/violent passengers, etc.

~~~
petermcneeley
Actually Vancouver had no gates at all. The ticketing was automatic and honor
based.

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Patrick_Devine
This was about gates on the platform, not gates to get into the station. Those
new station gates have been a complete boondoggle however. Translink spent
$200 million [1] on a system which was supposed to save $2 million a year in
fare evasion but people just jump through anyway. They try to put a bright
spin on this saying revenue went up $30 million, but they don't talk about
ridership level increases at the same time. Even if they saved $10 million a
year, it would take 20 years to pay for the system, far longer than the useful
life of the fare gates.

[1] [https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/translink-still-
los...](https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/translink-still-losing-
millions-to-fare-evaders-but-its-not-tracking-numbers)

~~~
jbay808
And the gates are very badly designed! The single-door design can't handle the
peak crowds that go through them, and their 'beep' that confirms fare payment
is a long monotone whine which makes it impossible to tell if you've paid
successfully or the person next to you has, since all the gates are just
constantly emitting a high pitched squeak.

/rant

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guruz
Nitpick: Automation does not imply instllating platform doors.

Nuremberg U-Bahn uses radar instead to monitor the tracks.

I don't know the cost differences between those approaches.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_U-
Bahn#U3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_U-Bahn#U3)

~~~
rocqua
The following paragraph:

"On 30 October 2008, the first accident resulting in a death occurred at
Rathenauplatz station. A passenger fell onto the track as a driverless train
approached the platform. The train was unable to halt in time because of the
short distance to the fallen passenger and limitations of its braking system.
Even if the same incident had occurred with a manually operated train, the
driver would not have been able to halt in time either."

from that page is completely without a source.

~~~
tralarpa
Seems to be this one:

[https://www.merkur.de/bayern/54jaehrige-unfall-
vollautomatis...](https://www.merkur.de/bayern/54jaehrige-unfall-
vollautomatischer-ubahn-getoetet-17959.html)

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bluGill
The argument is bogus: either way they should be installing doors in each
station preventing track access. This is basic safety: keep people off the
tracks so they can't be hit by a train. This is also air quality: keep brake
dust out of the air in the station.

Maybe you decide automation isn't worth it, but you still want the doors, even
if it means hiring someone to open them.

The above was also stated by one of the comments, but it is worth bringing up.

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Angostura
Hmmm. London Underground carries about 1.5 billion people reach year. In the
last year for data I can find, around 80 ended up on the tracks. Only a few
stations have any pbarrier between track and platform.

~~~
IneffablePigeon
All/most of the new stations on the Elizabeth line are going to have barriers
afaik. It seems to me like all the new/refitted underground stations are
getting the barriers these days too - I think it's a great improvement
personally.

~~~
tomarr
Alternatively they cost a lot and reduce flexibility (want to change your
train fleet / door configuration?)

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k_bx
The article doesn't mention one more thing that automation might bring:
flexibility in working hours. Automated trains could work an extra hour for
routes and districts that would benefit from it, or it could also be not
working, e.g. extra trains that only work in peak hours.

This is especially true in the context of self-driving cars, but might be true
for Metro as well.

~~~
bryanlarsen
The first comment on the article mentioned that the automated sky train in
Vancouver comes every 2 minutes even at 1AM. Sounds like an awesome benefit.

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markvdb
For good reasons or bad, but... machines don't strike. That on its own is a
very good reason to fully automate the metro.

~~~
seszett
Automated metro lines aren't unsupervised though. The automated lines in Paris
and Lille also stop when there is a strike.

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greatpatton
No during the last strike (September) in Paris the line 1 and 14 (the only 2
lines with automated metro) were both operational.

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seszett
That's because the conductors were striking but not the supervisors, though,
not because an automated line is inherently immune to striking.

I thought line 14 was stopped because of a strike some time ago but it was
apparently just because of an incident, it might never have stopped because of
a strike indeed. But that just means the employees that manage it don't
strike.

~~~
rumanator
> That's because the conductors were striking but not the supervisors, though

That's the whole point.

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jnty
The (poor) economics of removing drivers from existing metros just goes to
show what an extremely efficient way of moving people they already are.

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ghaff
The tech crowd is really big on cutting out people when the reality is that
people are 1.) Pretty versatile, even in fairly routine jobs, handling
unexpected events and 2.) Often aren't that expensive in the scheme of things.
Even personal transportation (taxis, etc.) drivers are only about half the
cost. That's certainly not nothing. But it's also not the difference between
expensive and almost too cheap to meter.

~~~
TomMarius
Would you want to be a metro driver?

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jnty
It's a dream job for many people, and is an extremely skilled job when dealing
with technical problems and emergencies is taken into account. There's a lot
of worse jobs we should get rid of first.

~~~
TomMarius
A garbage truck man is also a dream job for many people. Then the reality
hits. I don't think we should simply not improve something when there's an
opportunity because "there are other jobs to automate". Well yeah, there are,
but the opportunity is there, not with the other jobs. There are many people
in the world, we're capable of parallel innovation.

~~~
gcfffgfg
Garbage men report real high levels of job satisfaction. When asked why,
they’re answer is simple: everyday the job gives their life meaning - they
clean up for others and for everyone. Their role is fundamentally important.

Contrast this with my job. Energy researcher. Let’s assume energy research is
necessary. Odds are that in my career I won’t make a ground breaking
discovery. So I get up drag myself to work knowing that most likely than not
nothing I will do that day will mean anything to anyone.

Not to say that sanitation work shouldn’t be automated. But the lack of
respect for ppl’s livelihoods commonly shown in HN, or in general neoliberal
circles, is astonishing.

~~~
TomMarius
I really don't think you should call me a neoliberal (and I am not sure what
it means, but I am definitely not a part of the group that is commonly
described as that). I am not sure what lack of respect are you seeing there, I
have massive respect for the people doing the jobs I wouldn't mentally be able
to do. That does not mean we should not innovate just because (still haven't
heard a single reason other than "these are prestigious jobs" which is not
really a reason), especially in a case where the technology is rather simple
and available for several decades, well proven. A computer (as in human
profession) used to be a prestigious job as well; so was a writer.

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maeln
Just one thing: It failed to mention that those extra pane w/ doors on the
metro platform also help safety.

People falling on the metro line (intentionally or not) is a real issue, and,
aside from the obvious immediate consequence to the body integrity of the
person that fell, it also yield a significant cost.

It is become increasingly common to put those type of protective pane even on
non automated metro lines. I saw them in Paris and Barcelona for example.

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crocal
Sigh. The Lyon metro is only fully automated on line D. There is an ongoing
project to automate line A and B. Lyon metro line D is relatively famous in
mass transit signalling because it is one of the very first driverless metro
and it features no platform doors. This is but one of the inaccuracies I found
in this uninformed article.

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gbronner
Cost estimates are far too low, and fail to include substantial back-loaded
pension benefits as well as training and such.

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bluGill
You should automate because it eliminates future budget. When the next
recession comes (which could be transit only: when political winds change and
voters give transit less money, or won't allow fares to raise), the automated
system is the last one cut because there is so little money to save. Since the
trains are your busy routes and the backbone it means when things get better
latter your most important users are still users and there are enough riders.
If your system isn't automated you are tempted to cut service on the main
routes to the point where people who are most likely to use transit buy a car
anyway and then they forget that transit works because the car is their habit
and they forget the downsides.

Might be too late for anyone to see this...

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Yhippa
I used the Montreal Metro a few years ago and they were automated and didn't
use the doors. Are they coming eventually or are they being rolled out in
phases?

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Valgrim
I think you're mistaken. The Montreal metro is not automated and has never
been. The train controls are mostly automated, but they are still operated by
a driver.

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izzydata
I find it curious that we are attempting to create an automated car, but we
can't seem to make an automated train that is on a defined rail?

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andbberger
The paris metro has been automated for decades. Get out of here with your
middlebrow dismissal

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izzydata
My ambiguous usage of "we" to refer to my particular country of the United
States was misleading. I'm glad these things exist around the world and I hope
we in the US can implement one someday.

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andbberger
Ever been on one of those wee trains at an airport?

