
Amazon’s enforcement failures leave open a back door to banned goods - Sumitmic
https://themarkup.org/banned-bounty/2020/06/18/amazons-enforcement-failures-leave-open-a-back-door
======
Game_Ender
It’s clear from the article keeping the marketplace clean is not a company
wide priority. Amazon famously has very decoupled teams so they have a team
setup for this that filters incoming listings, and that is it. After all many
of these banned items don’t really harm the user “just” society at large, so
it’s not very “customer obsessed” to spend a big effort cross company to stamp
them out. It would not surprise me if every flaw this article pointed out was
known, and the isolated team simply does not have the people and politics
power to fix it.

You can see this because the teams which manage virtually every other part of
the site are not involved - the search recommendation was suggesting banned
items - the buy together team does not use it’s system to find banned products
related to removed items - the amazons choice team does not apply extra
diligence to the things it flags. All things that a postmortem on now people
find banned items would come up as action items. I bet they probably have, but
it was low priory on those teams backlog.

It’s also clear they have not funded a big enough secret shopper team to just
act like a user and try and buy banned products and then make reports to
various teams across the site where they have gaps. If an outsider can sit
down with your system and find bugs after a little bit of time, you don’t have
a decent quality process in place.

~~~
archi42
Everything works as intended:
[https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/amzn](https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/amzn)

Anything else isn't a real issue. While accidentally rejecting even 0.1% of
the legit listings surely would cause heads to roll for screwing with the
bottom line.

------
lifeisstillgood
There is a part of me that has the knee jerk "Amazon are terrible" reaction.
But another part is this is just shining a light on goods that were sold
anyway, but we could not find them in the shadows.

So I have a theory on Twitter - it's not that Twitter _causes_ people to spout
offensive rants and bully people - it's that it simply takes every pub and
street conversation that happened _anyway_ and makes them publically
available.

(yes there is an effect of reinforcement that the pub conversation would not
get so it's not perfect analogy)

Amazon is similar - they are _trying_ to become the marketplace for everything
sold in the world - which will include the crap, the counterfeit and the
simply useless.

It kind of is Amazons problem, but like Twitter and Facebook, they are not
_causing_ it, and it won't go away if we stop Amazon somehow.

It's us and our societies.

Edit: there is a secondary effect here (linked to Google as well) that is no-
one would buy from "some random dude selling pills on a street corner" but
Amazons big tent lends him some of Amazons credibility.

Thirdly we often moan here on HN that Google just returns mainstream results
and we cannot find the out of the way stuff - but in these cases that's
exactly what we want.

So I am not sure if this is an Amazon search problem (don't return counterfeit
products - cost bourne by Amazon) or of it is an enforcement problem (police
arrest counterfeiters - cost bourne by taxpayer) or something else like only
buy from reputable providers (cost bourne by purchasers)

~~~
iNerdier
Just because counterfeit goods are sold doesn’t mean you have to sell them
too. With all of these stories about Amazon it’s clear they care more about
volume of goods sold and therefore amount of revenue generated and market
share than they do about what is being sold. If two journalists and a few days
can turn up this many clearly banned items that Amazon’s searches themselves
are suggesting, it clearly is not something that the company hasn’t been aware
of since the start of third party selling. They just choose not to commit
resources to it as they’re facing no serious repercussions for it and it
actually makes them money.

Since this is nominally a site that discusses technology and Amazon is itself
a major vendor of internet services it is not out of the question to think
that they could, with programmers assigned to it and a desire to do so,
massively reduce the ability for dangerous and/or banned items being sold on
their site. Given that many of these things come from the same sellers and are
being purchased by the same people it’s not as if these are all one off
outliers. It’s a hard problem, certainly, but this is a company led by the
richest man in the world for crying out loud!

If ever there was a reason for state oversight to stop large tech entities
from getting away with whatever they want, surely it’s enabling people to
actually cause deaths?

------
rnernento
It's a bit of a stretch to me that the picture up top is trying to pin the
heartfelt death of a father on Amazon when all Amazon did was sell a pill
press...

I'm not saying Amazon should be selling these things, but that choice makes me
distrust this whole article.

~~~
tantalor
Is it a bit of a stretch to hold Amazon responsible when counterfeit
medicines, made with Amazon-sold equipment, harm people? The sole purpose of
this equipment is to deceive.

As for woman in the picture up top, I think she has a reason to complain:

 _She woke up in a hospital bed herself. She didn’t realize her father had
slipped the counterfeit pills into his prescription bottle of Percocet at home
and, distraught with grief, she had taken what she thought was a safe
medication to help her relax._

~~~
likeclockwork
Is Percocet a safe medication designed to help people relax?

~~~
fortran77
Certainly not. Of course, people who abuse drugs don't deserve to die, but
there is some risk you have to assume.

The people actually manufacturing the fake drugs have a lot more liability
than the sale of pill presses, which have legitimate uses.

> She didn’t realize her father had slipped the counterfeit pills into his
> prescription bottle of Percocet at home and, distraught with grief, she had
> taken what she thought was a safe medication to help her relax.

This whole family shares each others pills?! W-T-F!

------
agensaequivocum
Wow. I knew that Amazon banned firearm sales (makes me sad), but they have
some stupid arbitrary rules.

Prohibited: Single point, 3-point, tactical, and quick detach slings

Why? seems like slings can be used for many things.

Permitted: Fixed stocks, with the exception of thumbhole stocks

Prohibited: Any non-fixed stock, including telescoping, folding or collapsible
stocks

Someone please tell me why non-fixed stock are so horrible?

Permitted: Magazine floor plates/base plates

I'm actually surprised by this one.

Prohibited: Full auto sears (also known as drop-in auto sear or DIAS)

Haha. Amazon would be the least of your problems if you sell one of these.
They should also probably stop selling metal coat hangers.[1]

Prohibited: AR-15/M16 armorer’s wrenches or combo wrenches

Really? So I cannot by a castle wrench if it's marketed as for AR-15s?

Prohibited: Magazine loaders, except for those that can accommodate the
following calibers: .223/5.56; 7.62x51; 308; 7.62x39; 5.45x39

Okay but .300 AAC, 6.5, 30-06, .338, .50 BMG/Beowulf are fine.

So much irrational hate for the AR-15 platform. It should be right up HNs
alley as it is a fully customizable and reparable platform unencumbered by
patents.

[1] [https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/01/04/coat-
hanger-m...](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/01/04/coat-hanger-
machine-gun-dias-drop-in-auto-sear)

~~~
6AA4FD
I don't know why you're worried about sears because either they are
unregistered and illegal or registered and covered under the firearm sale ban.
Adjustable stocks are arguably a concern because they make building rifles
shorter than 26 inches easier. I'm not going to comment on anything else and
I'm not pushing any specific agenda with this post, but those were my initial
thoughts about those items.

~~~
agensaequivocum
> I don't know why you're worried about sears because either they are
> unregistered and illegal or registered and covered under the firearm sale
> ban.

Exactly.

> Adjustable stocks are arguably a concern because they make building rifles
> shorter than 26 inches easier.

You could just not put stock on. An AR-15 with a 16in barrel is 30in with the
stock collapsed and cannot be much shorter without the stock because of the
buffer tube.

~~~
6AA4FD
>An AR-15 with a 16in barrel is 30in with the stock collapsed and cannot be
much shorter without the stock because of the buffer tube.

Telescoping stocks maybe not (my inexperience showing there) but folding
stocks definitely can take it under 30 inches then. I assume you're saying a
normal caliber ar15 won't be very fireable without a buffer tube. Anyways,
apparently folding and telescoping stocks are also illegal in California,
which might be the real reason amazon has these rules.

~~~
agensaequivocum
While there are technically stocks you can get for an AR-15 that fold, because
you have to also fold the buffer tube they are not recommend and potentially
unreliable. It is completely inoperable without the buffer tube.

They are not illegal to own in California. They are only illegal to be on a
semi-automatic center fire rifle with a detachable magazine. So if you mag
lock your AR with something like this[1] you can put a telescoping stock on
it. This is also legal[2] (with a 10rd magazine) since it is not a center fire
rifle.

Again a stock is not integral to the operation of most rifles so you can just
not put one on. Oh course then it's legally not considered a rifle most of the
time.

[1]
[https://armaglock.com/product/armaglock/](https://armaglock.com/product/armaglock/)

[2] [https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-22-sport](https://www.smith-
wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-22-sport)

~~~
6AA4FD
I'm familiar with mag locking and all of the "featureless" difficulties, I was
just being brief. However I understand center fire refers to the
cartridge/primer configuration and I'm not really sure why that matters, could
I trouble you to explain? WRT the buffer tube, I understand that you need the
buffer to move the bcg, correct?

~~~
agensaequivocum
Sure. It matters, I'm guessing because the design prohibits larger calibers
due to the physics of how it works.

>Rimfire ammo is limited to smaller calibers since the cartridge walls need to
be thin enough to be able to be crushed by the firing pin and ignite the
primer.

> The downside?

> Well, the nature of the casing means it’s pretty much limited to small
> calibers. You have to have some relatively flimsy brass to handle the
> rimfire set up. As a result, the powder necessary to propel a larger bullet
> would blow the brass apart.[1]

Correct about the buffer tube. So even if you installed a folding stock on an
AR-15, it require some proprietary buffer tube to work like this one.[2]

[1] [https://www.pewpewtactical.com/rimfire-vs-centerfire-
ammunit...](https://www.pewpewtactical.com/rimfire-vs-centerfire-ammunition/)

[2] [https://youtu.be/_qr2GTq3v3w](https://youtu.be/_qr2GTq3v3w)

~~~
6AA4FD
Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your time and knowledge.

~~~
agensaequivocum
You're welcome.

------
vorpalhex
I found it funny the article considered an ar15 vise as a prohibited part when
it specifically is not. Amazon bans parts that directly attach to some weapons
(and only some of them, not scopes or lights) and a vise block does not
attach.

I suppose we could go the opposite way and declare Amazon should not sell any
punch, hammer or gauge...

~~~
jonathanmkeegan
[https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/help.html?...](https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/help.html?itemID=200164950)
Assault weapon and AR-specific tools, such as: Vise blocks AR-15/M16 armorer’s
wrenches or combo wrenches Bullet button tools

~~~
vorpalhex
Huh, you are right, they do specifically call out Vise blocks, though they
also specify AR-15/M16 vise blocks. I wonder if it's possible to just add an
AK trunnion pattern to it and still list it, since it's no longer AR-15/M16
specific...

~~~
dmoy
It looks like they allow "vise blocks not intended for use with assault
weapons"

So a top level reading would indicate they don't allow ak47 vise blocks
either.

~~~
agensaequivocum
They do not define the term "assault weapon". It only has a legal definition
in a handful of states.

~~~
dmoy
True, and even when there was a federal AWB the definition was kind of
arbitrary.

pistol grip + collapsing stock? assault weapon!

pistol grip + a2 fixed stock? not an assault weapon?

------
nxc18
This is awesome, I just wish they were worse at enforcing some other
prohibitions.

I’ve been trying to get my hands on a real kinder egg (not the kinder joy
bullshit) for a while now. I thought the kinder joy and a wonder ball would be
enough, but it is not.

I don’t know why German kids are so much more resilient against choking than
American kids, but whatever. (I actually do know, it’s because of an ancient
law that should have been updated by now)

~~~
graton
Our local Mexican grocery store sells them. I think they import them from
Mexico and nobody noticed that they are illegal here in the US.

~~~
akiselev
Same with the Armenian and Russian stores in SoCal. However I think it's a
rather recent phenomenon. I remember 20 years ago neither Kinder Surprise nor
Kinder Joy were available anywhere, then about 10-15 years ago Kinder Joy
became widespread and shortly after Kinder Surprise was available. I don't
think any of the grocery stores cared about the ban but it wasn't until Kinder
Joy reminded (immigrant) consumers of the eggs from their childhood that the
demand became obvious to the shop owners.

------
fortran77
> We found listings for prohibited tools for picking locks and jimmying open
> car doors.

I've got a closet full of this stuff. And I never used them to commit a crime.

~~~
ceejayoz
No one said those things are illegal to possess or sell.

They're saying _Amazon_ prohibits their sale, but doesn't effectively enforce
that rule.

> They’re included among 38 pages of third-party seller rules and prohibitions
> for its U.S. marketplace.

> Yet an investigation by The Markup found that Amazon fails to properly
> enforce that list, allowing third-party sellers to put up and sell banned
> items.

~~~
fortran77
I never said they were. (Although they may be in some places.) What I'm saying
is it's very useful to have tools to get into a locked car or to pick a lock.
Who hasn't locked himself out?

~~~
ceejayoz
I'm saying whether or not they're useful, the point of the article is that
Amazon purports not to permit them, but doesn't police their listings well.

------
jimmaswell
Some of these are just silly. Why would they ban a wrench and a vise?

I always get some enjoyment from making Amazon donate to gun rights
organizations with Smile.

------
dkdk8283
I’d argue that banning specific goods is useless. shouldn’t dab paraphernalia
be sold? Concentrates are legal in various states.

If someone wants a $4000 pill press they’re going to get it anyway. The idea
that somehow this will prevent harm is absurd.

~~~
baybal2
Yes, such idea is absurd. I can't fathom along what lines they came to the
idea of online marketplaces being the ones to blame, or moreover being
burdened by the duty to police their markets... The line of thinking of such
people is not unlike the ones of communist party.

Found one stall in a giant market selling weed? Ban all sellers. Had one
illegal BnB in an apartment building? Expunge all renters in the whole
apartment block.

~~~
sethherr
It’s more like: a market says we won’t have anyone selling weed, and there are
stalls selling weed, and someone says “hey, you’re selling weed even though
you say you won’t”

And unlike a market, which is generally not owned by a single entity, this
market is owned by the richest person in the world, so it certainly has the
resources to enforce its policies.

